# Comics  > Batman >  Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral - Appreciation

## colossus34

From Boy Wonder to Nightwing, with stints leading the Teen Titans and even acting as Batman along the way, a new era for Dick Grayson begins in June. 

*Batman's sidekick leaves the cave for 'Grayson' comic*

*Tim Seeley On ‘Grayson’, Nightwing’s All-New Spy Adventure [Interview]*







*GRAYSON #1*
Written by TIM SEELEY
Art by MIKEL JANIN
Cover by ANDREW ROBINSON
On sale JULY 2 • 32pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Dick Grayson. Former sidekick. Former Super Hero. Former dead man. And now...agent of Spyral?!
A thrilling new chapter of Dick Grayson’s life begins in this new, ongoing series. It’s a super-spy thriller that will shock you and prove one thing: You might think you know Nightwing – but you don’t know Dick.

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## byrd156

I hope Grayson will be good, its a big change.

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## dick_wingnut

Still Wish Dick was a superhero, its like they are slowly taking away everything I dug about the character, but I am cautiously optimistic about the new series.

If he kills people, I will riot in the streets. I live in middle of nowhere Maine though, so itll be something lame like flipping a moose over.

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## Dzetoun

> I am also looking forward to Grayson.  Also, I feel like I'm in a hospital on this new board.


Well, perhaps as Morrison implied of Batman in Arkham Asylum, we all need to spend some time with the inmates.  :Cool:

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## dropkickjake

Um... What?

But yes, Grayson will be exciting. I also really hope this change in status quo can make him a bit more accessible for shows like arrow.

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## Jabare

longtime Dick Grayson fan, message me if something good happens. 

Since Flashpoint I haven't been as crazy about him, but if I hear good things about Grayson I'll come running back

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## Trevel8182



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## Kid A

I'm okay with the new book direction, but I wish they could have kept the Nightwing moniker.  "Nightwing: Agent of SPYRAL" would have been a badass title for a book.  Unfortunately it seems like Johns had his identity exposed before they really even figured out what they were doing to do with him.

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## Penguin Truth

Funny how any impact the finale of Forever Evil might've had was utterly decimated by the Grayson announcement and the blindingly obviousness that built up due to the schedule delays.

Bravo, DC.

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## SpideyZERO

I wonder what's the original plan for Dick post Forever Evil, resurrection as Talon?

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## Rakiduam



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## DV1Band

I'm not digging this new direction. I prefer him as Nightwing.

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## teej

> I'm not digging this new direction. I prefer him as Nightwing.


But...the first issue isn't even out yet. And Tim Seeley's writing it!

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## oasis1313

> 


"You're going to be a DENTIST!!!!"

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## Dante

the new 52 is a bit of a cluster fuck , how long before DC one more day the reveal? Dick using a gun and being a spy doesn't really make much sense for the character

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## dropkickjake

Ah, the return of the shaggy hair. Nice.

Hey. Janin is still on this books interior, though, right? I like the new images, but the first one we saw is still my favorite.

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## dropkickjake

Ah, the return of the shaggy hair. Nice.

Hey. Janin is still on this books interior, though, right? I like the new images, but the first one we saw is still my favorite.

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## Dzetoun

> I guess I'm not sure why people are so adamant that Dick Grayson should never use a gun. Isn't that question part of being his own man and character? It's well established why Batman doesn't, but really the only reason Dick would have such a problem is because "Bruce told him so". But if he is truly making a big change into the spy world - has any such literature/movies/TV shows featured someone who DIDN't have a gun? Not to say they couldn't differentiate him in that way, but I don't see it as open and shut



Yeah, I know what you mean.  I actually found it a good sign that they are aware, as evidenced by King in the podcast, of the issues with guns, if only because it shows they are paying attention in general. I thought King made a very good point, however, when he basically observed that if Dick is ever to come into his own he can't be Batman Lite. A book that's just about Bruce's little boy playing spy might be an amusing adjunct to the Batman line, but won't ever do much for Dick as a character. If this is going to work the way King and Seeley say they want it to work, with a success that makes Dick an  A-level character, then it's going to have to be definitively established that he isn't Batman, spies aren't super heroes, and Spyral isn't the Justice League. That will mean stretching Dick beyond his comfort zone but probably a lot of readers beyond theirs, as well. 

On another front, I thought it refreshing that he was willing to admit that the five year timeline causes a lot of problems, and was surprised when he implied frankly that they were going to be doing something of a rescue operation to try to bring a lot of Dick's background and story from the old continuity into the New 52.   How they are going to manage it, given this new setup, I don't know, but it was encouraging.  It's also encouraging that Doyle is evidently supportive and open-minded, although that may be a sign of desperation as much as anything else.

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## K. Jones

Personally, I'm hoping for Crazy Quilt. Star-Spangled Comics all the way!

I'm curious about the KGBeast concept. The acronym is a bit dated, but like, CSBeast or CISBeast are lousy names. Generally thinking about an anti-Dick, someone who killed their own parents, was brainwashed to be a killer rather than mentored to be a non-lethal demon-boy, and who killed and replaced their mentor rather than living in his shadow, could be a cool backstory. You know ... basically just the person Deathstroke would have tried to make Dick into. His most enduring rivals all seem to be freelance assassins with no morals. Deathstroke, Shrike, Lady Vic, Tarantula, Ravager, Talons, Saiko. Even Joker is hypothetically a former hitman with possible theoretical patricide in his multiple choice backstory. Even little Jimmy Junior is now working the government killer angle, and attempting to harm his own parents.

Based on KGBeast is fine. I just hope it's not KGBeast in name. Has that brute cameoed in like David Finch's "draw everyone" run on Dark Knight?

Anyway everything about this sounds up my alley, especially salvage operations on Dick's publication history. SERIOUSLY, Tim Seeley. Crazy Quilt. Call him something different ... call him Patches. Call him The Painter. COMBINE him with KGBeast and call him the RGBeast, real name Roy G. Bivens.

If Grayson's here to catch people when they fall ... his rival should be someone who drops people for a living.

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## Agent 37

> Yeah, I know what you mean.  I actually found it a good sign that they are aware, as evidenced by King in the podcast, of the issues with guns, if only because it shows they are paying attention in general. I thought King made a very good point, however, when he basically observed that if Dick is ever to come into his own he can't be Batman Lite. A book that's just about Bruce's little boy playing spy might be an amusing adjunct to the Batman line, but won't ever do much for Dick as a character. If this is going to work the way King and Seeley say they want it to work, with a success that makes Dick an  A-level character, then it's going to have to be definitively established that he isn't Batman, spies aren't super heroes, and Spyral isn't the Justice League. That will mean stretching Dick beyond his comfort zone but probably a lot of readers beyond theirs, as well. 
> 
> On another front, I thought it refreshing that he was willing to admit that the five year timeline causes a lot of problems, and was surprised when he implied frankly that they were going to be doing something of a rescue operation to try to bring a lot of Dick's background and story from the old continuity into the New 52.   How they are going to manage it, given this new setup, I don't know, but it was encouraging.  It's also encouraging that Doyle is evidently supportive and open-minded, although that may be a sign of desperation as much as anything else.


+1

I am impressed with a lot of the things King said. The writing team seem to at least have their ears to the ground to some extent and know some of the issues that fans seem to have. 


People are saying the whole "Grayson Agent of Spyral" idea seems forced, but (under the circumstances of Forever Evil) it is!  It maybe wasn't even the first idea dc had for Dick's character, but fans want the CHARACTER of Dick Grayson to succeed whether it be in this title or if he's ever reverted back to Nightwing etc. For that to happen they'll have to expand Grayson's stature in the DC universe and that wasn't happening in/as Nightwing recently. (Especially in the new52)

Challenging the character and taking him out of his comfort zone in the bat family will hopefully make the book a hit and raise Dick Grayson's stock in the dc continuity! 

Anything they do to push the character Dick Grayson to be recognized as a legitimate A-list hero, the better for me. If it's not for everyone and it decided Dick will turn back to Nightwing, he'll hopefully have skills gained, more backstory and supporting cast to go forward with!

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## Badou

Eh, Dick isn't going to become A-list. I think his pathetic involvement in Forever Evil cemented that. DC views the character as a tool to prop up Batman first and foremost. It's unfortunate, but it is true. I also don't really know what to make of the whole "being branded a traitor" thing for the 5 Years Later event. Given that he wasn't at Green Arrow's funeral in the FE issue I guess he is stuck over in Russia for some reason. I hope that doesn't mean he is going to be stuck there and isn't allowed to be involve in any of the big stories happening around then, but I guess that will probably be the case unfortunately.

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## Claude

> That face is 1000 times better than the other cover! I really like it!


Yeah, that new face puts that Second Cover in front of the first in my affections. Also, I _really_ like it when a writer or artist will just up and say "my bad, I can do that better" and change it without flurry.


This book has a great team behind it, and could really do great things for Dick. A couple years down the line, if this takes off, you could find yourself in a place where Dick has a comfortable semi-regular place in the JL titles - albeit in an Oracle/Waller/Trevor role than a Flash role - unrelated to his connection to Batman.





> Eh, Dick isn't going to become A-list. I think his pathetic involvement in Forever Evil cemented that. DC views the character as a tool to prop up Batman first and foremost. It's unfortunate, but it is true.


Hmmm, no. I think Forever Evil cements that how DC had handled _Nightwing_ was untenable. Johns wanted - or so it seems - for Dick to have a role in the event, but all editorial could see was That Batman Character. Because, for a long time now, that's all Nightwing has really been. 

And I think, or like to think, that everyone involved realised this wasn't healthy. So maybe they thought about killing him, taking him off the table and putting Harper Row in his suit as a less ambiguous Batman Subsidiary that they could at least push as a New Exciting Character in publicity. I'd be surprised if that wasn't discussed.

But what they _have_ done, with Dick taking an out-of-costume role in a book that requires as it's original premise that he has no contact with the Bat Family, keeping him out of _Eternal_, putting him in a directly "has to work out whether Batman Rules still apply" role... It's hard to see how that can be seen as them "propping up" Batman. In fact, after years of stealth tie-ins to the Court of Owls, Joker tie-ins, "Dick _as_ Batman", and the "pop by the cave every few weeks to hang with Tim and Alfred"/"fighting Batman villains" elements of the Tomasi Nightwing run, this could be the least Batman-supporting title that Dick's been in for a long time!


Although I agree that a good role in Future's End would be nice, but doesn't seem likely.  :Frown:

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## oasis1313

> Eh, Dick isn't going to become A-list. I think his pathetic involvement in Forever Evil cemented that. DC views the character as a tool to prop up Batman first and foremost. It's unfortunate, but it is true. I also don't really know what to make of the whole "being branded a traitor" thing for the 5 Years Later event. Given that he wasn't at Green Arrow's funeral in the FE issue I guess he is stuck over in Russia for some reason. I hope that doesn't mean he is going to be stuck there and isn't allowed to be involve in any of the big stories happening around then, but I guess that will probably be the case unfortunately.


This is an EXCELLENT post and sums up exactly how I feel about the entire the situation.  I pray the new creators can make a success of things, but it just looks like Didio wants Dick Grayson gone--banished if not dead.

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## Dzetoun

> Eh, Dick isn't going to become A-list. I think his pathetic involvement in Forever Evil cemented that. DC views the character as a tool to prop up Batman first and foremost. It's unfortunate, but it is true. I also don't really know what to make of the whole "being branded a traitor" thing for the 5 Years Later event. Given that he wasn't at Green Arrow's funeral in the FE issue I guess he is stuck over in Russia for some reason. I hope that doesn't mean he is going to be stuck there and isn't allowed to be involve in any of the big stories happening around then, but I guess that will probably be the case unfortunately.


Oh, I think it's a given that he isn't going to be involved in any of the big stories happening in the _Futures End_ timeline.  Most of the DCnU characters will not be.  That is the purpose of the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins, to show what's going on with the other characters in the DCnU while _Futures End_ is happening.  At least he's still whole and alive.  Tim is going to die, Kate Kane is a vampire, Barbara has turned into a Bane-thing, Jason is in violent regression, Luke Fox is a villain, and we have hints that Bruce has gone loopy.  A comfortable stint in Moscow can't be all that bad.  Besides, most of it will never happen, anyway, and it would take 15-25 years of real time to get there unless DC mandates a time-skip, so there is little to worry about.  I suspect the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins may reveal future themes and directions, but not specific events or details.

I think a much greater tragedy is that he is not involved in _Batman Eternal_.  A 75-year celebration event of Batman without Dick Grayson really is ridiculous.  But maybe he will be involved in whatever event they have planned for next April.

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## oasis1313

> Oh, I think it's a given that he isn't going to be involved in any of the big stories happening in the _Futures End_ timeline.  Most of the DCnU characters will not be.  That is the purpose of the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins, to show what's going on with the other characters in the DCnU while _Futures End_ is happening.  At least he's still whole and alive.  Tim is going to die, Kate Kane is a vampire, Barbara has turned into a Bane-thing, Jason is in violent regression, Luke Fox is a villain, and we have hints that Bruce has gone loopy.  A comfortable stint in Moscow can't be all that bad.  Besides, most of it will never happen, anyway, and it would take 15-25 years of real time to get there unless DC mandates a time-skip, so there is little to worry about.  I suspect the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins may reveal future themes and directions, but not specific events or details.
> 
> I think a much greater tragedy is that he is not involved in _Batman Eternal_.  A 75-year celebration event of Batman without Dick Grayson really is ridiculous.  But maybe he will be involved in whatever event they have planned for next April.


I wouldn't hold my breath.

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## Dzetoun

> This is an EXCELLENT post and sums up exactly how I feel about the entire the situation.  I pray the new creators can make a success of things, but it just looks like Didio wants Dick Grayson gone--banished if not dead.


And how is having his own book, a book still edited by the Batman Office and written by Seeley, whom everyone seems to consider one of DC's most prominent and promising next generation writers, being banished?  Does Didio really care *THAT* much who shows up in which Batman Office publications?  Providing the money keeps coming in, of course, and the Bat publications are the premier money-making line at DC these days.  Is physical proximity to Bruce a marker of favor with Didio?  If so, then Dick is clearly his favorite Robin, judging by "face time" with Bruce in the New 52, followed by Jason, with Tim clearly being someone Didio absolutely can't stand (further evidence being that Tim is slated to die in five years of comic book time, as we have been told).

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## oasis1313

> And how is having his own book, a book still edited by the Batman Office and written by Seeley, whom everyone seems to consider one of DC's most prominent and promising next generation writers, being banished?  Does Didio really care *THAT* much who shows up in which Batman Office publications?  Providing the money keeps coming in, of course, and the Bat publications are the premier money-making line at DC these days.  Is physical proximity to Bruce a marker of favor with Didio?  If so, then Dick is clearly his favorite Robin, judging by "face time" with Bruce in the New 52, followed by Jason, with Tim clearly being someone Didio absolutely can't stand (further evidence being that Tim is slated to die in five years of comic book time, as we have been told).


Tell me more about the possibility of Tim Drake dying.

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## Dzetoun

> Tell me more about the possibility of Tim Drake dying.


Oh, it's been solicited for August in _Futures End_, his picture on the cover dead and everything.  It will never happen of course, as none of the events in _Futures End_ will really come to pass.  But then, the events with Dick in Russia will never come to pass, either.

But really, now, is all of the pessimism concerning Dick over _Infinite Crisis_, which was ten years ago and about which Didio has openly admitted to being wrong?  And which didn't happen, anyway.  Or is it over the reboot and the loss of Dick's history?  That was bad, certainly.  But once again, if that is Didio hating Dick, he must absolutely despise and loathe Tim Drake with an unspeakable passion, considering that his history was folded, beaten, and fed through a meat grinder.  And he must have a special soft spot in his heart for Jason Todd, a fact that was never in evidence before the reboot.  Or is it over Geoff Johns?  Yes, Johns has been a major disappointment in term of _Forever Evil_.  But that is nearly over, and killing Dick was never a viable option, anyway, as King pretty much admitted in his interview.

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## Godlike13

> Eh, Dick isn't going to become A-list. I think his pathetic involvement in Forever Evil cemented that. DC views the character as a tool to prop up Batman first and foremost. It's unfortunate, but it is true. I also don't really know what to make of the whole "being branded a traitor" thing for the 5 Years Later event. Given that he wasn't at Green Arrow's funeral in the FE issue I guess he is stuck over in Russia for some reason. I hope that doesn't mean he is going to be stuck there and isn't allowed to be involve in any of the big stories happening around then, but I guess that will probably be the case unfortunately.


Why would he be at Green Arrow's funeral? He never really knew him even before the reboot.

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## colossus34

Reading the recent Grayson interview on Newsarama is making me very weary already. Supposedly, Helena is going to be Dick's "partner' and according to the writers "definitely better than Dick; he has to learn from her." *Sigh* I'm already worried were going to retreading the same old Dick being one upped, outwitted and upstaged by his usual Mary Sue's that has plagued the character since the Dixon era. If you're going to make a bloody Grayson book, at least make him the best at doing what he does. What's going to be the point if this whole series is just Dick bumbling about and messing up being a spy? I'm hoping im wrong, but this isn't a good sign in my book.

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## Badou

> Hmmm, no. I think Forever Evil cements that how DC had handled _Nightwing_ was untenable. Johns wanted - or so it seems - for Dick to have a role in the event, but all editorial could see was That Batman Character. Because, for a long time now, that's all Nightwing has really been.


I don't know. I got the feeling that Johns just used Dick/Nightwing because of his connection to Bruce. Just so he could have Batman and Owlman fight over something. I don't get the feeling he had any larger plan in place. Like him and Owlman teaming up to defeat Ultraman didn't lead anywhere. That might have been interesting to see but it didn't amount to anything. Guess we will see in issue #7 though. 




> Why would he be at Green Arrow's funeral? He never really knew him even before the reboot.


Well every hero was there basically. Even someone like Batwoman. It's set 5 years in the future so you'd hope that Dick has at least some hero friends by then, but I get the feeling the "branded a traitor" thing might be why he isn't around for the event. 




> Oh, I think it's a given that he isn't going to be involved in any of the big stories happening in the _Futures End_ timeline.  Most of the DCnU characters will not be.  That is the purpose of the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins, to show what's going on with the other characters in the DCnU while _Futures End_ is happening.  At least he's still whole and alive.  Tim is going to die, Kate Kane is a vampire, Barbara has turned into a Bane-thing, Jason is in violent regression, Luke Fox is a villain, and we have hints that Bruce has gone loopy.  A comfortable stint in Moscow can't be all that bad.  Besides, most of it will never happen, anyway, and it would take 15-25 years of real time to get there unless DC mandates a time-skip, so there is little to worry about.  I suspect the _Five Years Later_ tie-ins may reveal future themes and directions, but not specific events or details.
> 
> I think a much greater tragedy is that he is not involved in _Batman Eternal_.  A 75-year celebration event of Batman without Dick Grayson really is ridiculous.  But maybe he will be involved in whatever event they have planned for next April.


I guess that is true. At least he isn't dead in the event, lol. Poor Tim. 

Oh, I agree that him being absent from Batman Eternal is even worse, but I'd like the character to play some role in one of these big weekly events that is changing so much of the DCU. Maybe at the end of Eternal he could show up, but I would be sad if he doesn't play a role in Future's End and maybe even more sad if he is absent from the war with Earth 2 event. The World's End event and war with Earth 2 could be a nice way to introduce some of his leadership skills back. Dunno.

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## Lazurus33

http://www.newsarama.com/21124-grays...e-partner.html

Helena is a surprise

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## Badou

I was one of the people advocating for Cass Cain to be in his supporting cast here, but Helena being in it is even better. I quite liked their relationship before the reboot (outside some crap stories) and it is great that Grayson finally has that established character he can interact with on a consistent basis. Also maybe allows both Helena W. and Helena B. to both stick around. 

Though I wonder how old she is supposed to be here. She's supposed to be as old as Helena Wayne, which would make her the same age as Dick too. 




> Reading the recent Grayson interview on Newsarama is making me very weary already. Supposedly, Helena is going to be Dick's "partner' and according to the writers "definitely better than Dick; he has to learn from her." *Sigh* I'm already worried were going to retreading the same old Dick being one upped, outwitted and upstaged by his usual Mary Sue's that has plagued the character since the Dixon era. If you're going to make a bloody Grayson book, at least make him the best at doing what he does. What's going to be the point if this whole series is just Dick bumbling about and messing up being a spy? I'm hoping im wrong, but this isn't a good sign in my book.


Actually this is great news for me. It answers one of the big problems I've had with Grayson/Nightwing in the reboot. He's been so isolated and alone in the New 52 and didn't really have anyone to really bounce his personality off of like how Bruce has Alfred, Babs has James Gordon, Superman has Lois and the Daily Planet, Aquaman has Mera and so on. Dick didn't have that. So adding Helena B. to his supporting cast instantly gives him an established character for him to interact with. Plus she is a big enough character where their new dynamic might not be scraped after he gets a new direction.

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## colossus34

> Actually this is great news for me. It answers one of the big problems I've had with Grayson/Nightwing in the reboot. He's been so isolated and alone in the New 52 and didn't really have anyone to really bounce his personality off of like how Bruce has Alfred, Babs has James Gordon, Superman has Lois and the Daily Planet, Aquaman has Mera and so on. Dick didn't have that. So adding Helena B. to his supporting cast instantly gives him an established character for him to interact with. Plus she is a big enough character where their new dynamic might not be scraped after he gets a new direction.


Yea but from the small blurb it sounded like she was being written as some sort of Mary Sue who Dick would need to protege under and learn from. That sort of relationship has never boded well when a supporting character upstages the lead. It's happened too many times with Nightwing to count. Plus Dick works better when he's the mentor, more seasoned guy himself, that's why his Batman run was so exciting. The guy's been around 75 years. The idea that he needs someone "showing him the ropes" at this stage in his career is silly. I dont mind some older M or Q spy veteran that Dick has to take orders from but this just makes me weary. Hopefully, I'm wrong....

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## weshes195

Yeah, I have become really not interested in the series. Especially that Nightwing has a real gun, with real bullets. That is 100% stupid. Nightwing may not be Bruce, but he still has a somewhat no kill code. I can only think right now of him almost killing Joker when he thought Drake died.

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## Badou

> Yea but from the small blurb it sounded like she was being written as some sort of Mary Sue who Dick would need to protege under and learn from. That sort of relationship has never boded well when a supporting character upstages the lead. It's happened too many times with Nightwing to count. Plus Dick works better when he's the mentor, more seasoned guy himself, that's why his Batman run was so exciting. The guy's been around 75 years. The idea that he needs someone "showing him the ropes" at this stage in his career is silly. I dont mind some older M or Q spy veteran that Dick has to take orders from but this just makes me weary. Hopefully, I'm wrong....


That might end up being the case, but I'm willing to take that risk just to bolster his supporting cast some. Maybe she will just have to teach him not to be a spy in Spyral since it is a new world for him.

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## Conway

> I was one of the people advocating for Cass Cain to be in his supporting cast here, but Helena being in it is even better. I quite liked their relationship before the reboot (outside some crap stories) and it is great that Grayson finally has that established character he can interact with on a consistent basis. Also maybe allows both Helena W. and Helena B. to both stick around. 
> 
> Though I wonder how old she is supposed to be here. She's supposed to be as old as Helena Wayne, which would make her the same age as Dick too. 
> 
> Actually this is great news for me. It answers one of the big problems I've had with Grayson/Nightwing in the reboot. He's been so isolated and alone in the New 52 and didn't really have anyone to really bounce his personality off of like how Bruce has Alfred, Babs has James Gordon, Superman has Lois and the Daily Planet, Aquaman has Mera and so on. Dick didn't have that. So adding Helena B. to his supporting cast instantly gives him an established character for him to interact with. Plus she is a big enough character where their new dynamic might not be scraped after he gets a new direction.


Did I miss something in the fiasco that is Worlds' Finest? I thought Helena B. was dead. That is what Helena W. said in WF #1.

Edit/P.S. What a stupid idea. At least commit to killing one character.

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## Dzetoun

The Helena Bertinelli news is extremely interesting, and actually I think could go quite well.  The thing that concerns me about that interview is the confirmation that this is all Bruce's idea, and that he asks Dick to make this sacrifice because of what happens in _Forever Evil_.  We seem to be headed back into the days of a cold, manipulative BatJerk, which is something that we had kind of gotten away from.  Not to mention that it extends the lack of agency that Dick has experienced ever since the beginning of _Forever Evil_.

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## JasonTodd428

> The thing that concerns me about that interview is the confirmation that this is all Bruce's idea, and that he asks Dick to make this sacrifice because of what happens in _Forever Evil_.  We seem to be headed back into the days of a cold, manipulative BatJerk, which is something that we had kind of gotten away from.  Not to mention that it extends the lack of agency that Dick has experienced ever since the beginning of _Forever Evil_.


I guess we'll see how it reads when the issue comes out but it seems to me that difference here between BatJerk and this is that Bruce is "asking" Dick to make this sacrifice not "demanding" or "ordering" him to do so. It may be his idea but he's clearly giving Dick a choice and that makes a difference to me. BatJerk Bruce would have simply ordered him to do this no matter what he wanted to do and Dick being who he is would have done so but it would not have because he wanted to do it. At least that's how the interview read to me anyway. Time will tell.

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## Claude

> I don't know. I got the feeling that Johns just used Dick/Nightwing because of his connection to Bruce. Just so he could have Batman and Owlman fight over something. I don't get the feeling he had any larger plan in place. Like him and Owlman teaming up to defeat Ultraman didn't lead anywhere. That might have been interesting to see but it didn't amount to anything. Guess we will see in issue #7 though. .


I don't know if #7 will help, to be honest. But I think it's worth noting that all of Johns' comments about why he used Nightwing are _not_ born out in the series. Solicit text for the trade _still_ mentions Nightwing being "on the run", and there's that Justice League cover of Ultraman confronting Dick on the streets...

No, I think Forever Evil will be - as the saying goes - a fairly Dickless story. But I think it probably _wasn't_ one when Johns decided to use the character. But things changed. 




> Yea but from the small blurb it sounded like she was being written as some sort of Mary Sue who Dick would need to protege under and learn from. That sort of relationship has never boded well when a supporting character upstages the lead. It's happened too many times with Nightwing to count. Plus Dick works better when he's the mentor, more seasoned guy himself, that's why his Batman run was so exciting. The guy's been around 75 years. The idea that he needs someone "showing him the ropes" at this stage in his career is silly. I dont mind some older M or Q spy veteran that Dick has to take orders from but this just makes me weary. Hopefully, I'm wrong....


Nah, I think what that interview is saying is that Helena is really good at Being A Spyral Spy, but that quite a lot of what that entails isn't just stuff Dick isn't good at, it's stuff he doesn't _want_ to be good at.

Which fits Helena nicely. Her relationship to Bat Characters, often Dick, always used to be "went further and harder and more brutal".




I'm also liking what they say about the gun. With King being in the "I've worn a gun, someone in this situation would wear a gun, but it shouldn't just be there to look cool" camp and Seeley in the - as he says - "anti-gun" position, I'm hoping we'll get an actual examination and character-based reaction to the idea, rather than the kant of Papa Batman Don't Like Guns.

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## Dzetoun

> I guess we'll see how it reads when the issue comes out but it seems to me that difference here between BatJerk and this is that Bruce is "asking" Dick to make this sacrifice not "demanding" or "ordering" him to do so. It may be his idea but he's clearly giving Dick a choice and that makes a difference to me. BatJerk Bruce would have simply ordered him to do this no matter what he wanted to do and Dick being who he is would have done so but it would not have because he wanted to do it. At least that's how the interview read to me anyway. Time will tell.


As you say, it depends on how it reads and what sort of reasoning and explanation is laid out.  Even if Dick is being given a choice, given his personality it is very easy for Bruce to come off as selfish, uncaring, and Machiavellian, concerned only with his mission.  Particularly in the wake of DotF, the possibility of Bruce looking bad, or at least extraordinarily foolish, is very high if things are not handled very, very carefully.  If he comes off that way, then it won't matter much that Dick is being technically given a choice.  Of course, a big part of this will be why Barbara and Alfred can't be included in the secret.  The "staying dead" part, in and of itself, is very logical.  The rest is not logical on the face of it, and nothing about this interview relieves the impression of it being very contrived and having the potential to strike all kinds of sour notes.  We will see in two weeks.

----------


## oasis1313

Reading the recent Grayson interview on Newsarama is making me very weary already. Supposedly, Helena is going to be Dick's "partner' and according to the writers "definitely better than Dick; he has to learn from her." *Sigh* I'm already worried were going to retreading the same old Dick being one upped, outwitted and upstaged by his usual Mary Sue's that has plagued the character since the Dixon era. If you're going to make a bloody Grayson book, at least make him the best at doing what he does. What's going to be the point if this whole series is just Dick bumbling about and messing up being a spy? I'm hoping im wrong, but this isn't a good sign in my book.

Suckiest news I've heard all day.  Why does Dick always have to play second fiddle to everybody else?  If DC wants to push Helena, give her OWN damn book instead of hogging Grayson's and making him carry her on his back.  I'm okay with her showing him where the locker room and the coffee pot are, somebody to come mop up the bloody aftermath of all his butt-kicking, pine over him like Miss Moneypenny does whenever James Bond tosses his hat into the room, but if the creators want to make Dick an A-List character, then he--like the ever-popular Wolverine, Batman, etc--HAS to be "the best there is at what he does".  Spyral would send in Dick Grayson for missions NOBODY ELSE could pull off.  Dick has had enough Mary Sue Millstone types hung around his neck over the years to drown a lesser character a thousand times over.  Another albatross around Dick Grayson's neck when he needs to soar.  Great.  Just great.  If DC put Dick in a book with Ambush Bug, he would be made to look like a moron compared to Ambush Bug.  My "guarded optimism" has just been flushed down the toilet into the Usual Sewers of DC.  Am I ticked.  Yeah.  I can already see what's coming.  I pray I'm just having a kneejerk reaction given my past 60+ years of watching Grayson NEVER getting his due, but my long experience is utterly embittering.

----------


## Punisher007

Umm, because Dick has never been a spy before.  If Helena has been doing this for a long time, then of course she's going to be better at it than him, at least at first.  Seriously people, calm the Hell down.  They're not going to make him look like a bumbling idiot, just inexperience, jeez.  Seriously, that's the most ridiculous pessimism that I've heard all week.  Listening to comic book fans is what can be embittering.

----------


## oasis1313

Then Helena can give him a road map and get out of his way.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

I'm not sure you know what a Mary Sue is. All the interview told us is that Helena is a better spy than Dick. That makes sense because she's probably been a spy longer than he has in this universe. Nothing suggests the character being idealized.

----------


## DjessNL

I was personally hoping for Rose Wilson, agent of Spyral.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I was personally hoping for Rose Wilson, agent of Spyral.


Also would have been dope. Who knows, if this book is successful, anything could happen.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Seriously people, calm the Hell down.  They're not going to make him look like a bumbling idiot, just inexperience, jeez.  Seriously, that's the most ridiculous pessimism that I've heard all week.  Listening to comic book fans is what can be embittering.


Right. After Forever Evil is not pessimism but previous experience. With a little luck Dick isn't going to spend 8 month tied to a chair waiting for Helena to rescue him.

----------


## Claude

> I'm not sure you know what a Mary Sue is. All the interview told us is that Helena is a better spy than Dick. That makes sense because she's probably been a spy longer than he has in this universe. Nothing suggests the character being idealized.


Nah, everyone knows what a Mary Sue is. "Female character who has all the traits I want in a character".

Can you think of ANYTHING more Sue-ish than Oasis' preferred option of Dick becoming The Bestest Spy In The Organisation on his second day and without training?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> As you say, it depends on how it reads and what sort of reasoning and explanation is laid out.  Even if Dick is being given a choice, given his personality it is very easy for Bruce to come off as selfish, uncaring, and Machiavellian, concerned only with his mission.  Particularly in the wake of DotF, the possibility of Bruce looking bad, or at least extraordinarily foolish, is very high if things are not handled very, very carefully.  If he comes off that way, then it won't matter much that Dick is being technically given a choice.  Of course, a big part of this will be why Barbara and Alfred can't be included in the secret.  The "staying dead" part, in and of itself, is very logical.  The rest is not logical on the face of it, and nothing about this interview relieves the impression of it being very contrived and having the potential to strike all kinds of sour notes.  We will see in two weeks.


This is the one part of this that troubles me as I said before elsewhere. They need to handle this just right in order to avoid Bruce coming off as caring more about the mission than about anything else. I also really don't like that Alfred and Babs are being left out of the loop. Actually scratch that I'm not happy that the entire family is being left out of the loop for whatever reason. Those two things are going to be particularly hard sells. I'll probably still enjoy the book anyway mind you since I like a lot of what's been said about it but I'll enjoy it more if they can really sell me on both of those aspects.




> Umm, because Dick has never been a spy before.  If Helena has been doing this for a long time, then of course she's going to be better at it than him, at least at first.  Seriously people, calm the Hell down.  They're not going to make him look like a bumbling idiot, just inexperience, jeez.  Seriously, that's the most ridiculous pessimism that I've heard all week.  Listening to comic book fans is what can be embittering.


Makes sense to me. Dick's been a hero for a long time and knows the ins and outs of that particular world but he has no experience whatsoever with the world of spies. Throwing him into that world without training is detrimental to his life and having him suddenly and inexplicable understand all the ins and outs is lazy writing in my opinion. Yes, a lot of his previous experiences and training will give him a leg up but going in as a green recruit means that he's not going to know the ins and outs of the spy world so he will need to be trained by someone who has that experience. It's no different than when he first became Robin and Bruce was training him.

----------


## Dzetoun

> This is the one part of this that troubles me as I said before elsewhere. They need to handle this just right in order to avoid Bruce coming off as caring more about the mission than about anything else. I also really don't like that Alfred and Babs are being left out of the loop. Actually scratch that I'm not happy that the entire family is being left out of the loop for whatever reason. Those two things are going to be particularly hard sells. I'll probably still enjoy the book anyway mind you since I like a lot of what's been said about it but I'll enjoy it more if they can really sell me on both of those aspects.


You know, this is a wild thought, but I wonder if the *entire* family is being left out.  We know that Barbara and Alfred have been.  But what about Tim?  Bruce is going to need some help caring for Dick after _Forever Evil_, and Tim's expertise might be useful as Dick was hooked up to the Apocalyptan technology.  That might mean Tim would know about all of this, which would explain some of his otherwise puzzling remarks in _Batman Eternal #5_ about how working with Bruce "really worked out for Nightwing" and the Bat family "really knows how to stick together."  If he does know, and does not approve, that would also explain his attitude, which as others have pointed out seems bitter and vitriolic past what one would expect from DotF or the death of Damian.

It's hard to say, of course.  The other wrinkle is that the scene in question was written by Tynion, and might have been meant to relate to whatever he was planning to do with _Nightwing 30_ when he was slated to write it.  Still, a possibility.

----------


## K. Jones

Dick hasn't been a spy, true. But he's been undercover countless times.

In the 1940s, as soon as Robin came along, Batman had him infiltrating crimes happening in Boys' Schools and Academies. Weeding out corruption.
In the Teen Titans, he faked his own death and infiltrated Brother Blood's cult.
In Snyder's Black Mirror, he's actually the guy who perfected the EMP mask the whole Bat-Family has been using for undercover ops lately, infiltrating the Dealer's auction.
In Young Justice, Dick basically goes from a constant covert operative to a spymaster.

Plus, he's a natural at everything. Though it'll be nice to see him one-upped. But he's Dick Grayson. He's so damned affable and non-egotistical he views being one-upped as a learning experience, or a turn-on. Thus, by his very nature, he one-ups the one-upsman!

----------


## Godlike13

If Barbara or Alfred doesn't know, then Tim isn't going to know. Or at least he better not know. It would diminish it. Either fully commit, or don't do it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You know, this is a wild thought, but I wonder if the *entire* family is being left out.  We know that Barbara and Alfred have been.  But what about Tim?  Bruce is going to need some help caring for Dick after _Forever Evil_, and Tim's expertise might be useful as Dick was hooked up to the Apocalyptan technology.  That might mean Tim would know about all of this, which would explain some of his otherwise puzzling remarks in _Batman Eternal #5_ about how working with Bruce "really worked out for Nightwing" and the Bat family "really knows how to stick together."  If he does know, and does not approve, that would also explain his attitude, which as others have pointed out seems bitter and vitriolic past what one would expect from DotF or the death of Damian.
> 
> It's hard to say, of course.  The other wrinkle is that the scene in question was written by Tynion, and might have been meant to relate to whatever he was planning to do with _Nightwing 30_ when he was slated to write it.  Still, a possibility.


That could be interesting and it would explain Tim's attitude there as well. However, I think I have to agree with Godlike13. This probably should be an all or nothing deal. 




> Plus, he's a natural at everything. Though it'll be nice to see him one-upped. But he's Dick Grayson. He's so damned affable and non-egotistical he views being one-upped as a learning experience, or a turn-on. Thus, by his very nature, he one-ups the one-upsman!


He's a performer at heart so I can see him doing just that and he'll probably be a quick study, learning everything he needs to know within a short period of time. He previous training will be an asset there I think and will give him a bit of an advantage. I just don't think it's a good idea for him to go into this "knowing it all" already. That just wouldn't make sense to me since he comparatively has far less experience in the spy field than Helena B. does at this point. There are similarities between his training under Batman and the training spies undergo but that doesn't mean that the two are entirely interchangeable.

----------


## Dzetoun

> If Barbara or Alfred doesn't know, then Tim isn't going to know. Or at least he better not know. It would diminish it. Either fully commit, or don't do it.


Yeah, that's probably true.  Well, we will see.  Like JasonTodd says, this is going to be a very hard sell, and a critical one.  The staying dead, like I say, makes a lot of sense.  The rest ... once again as JasonTodd says, they are going to have to handle that just right.




> He's a performer at heart so I can see him doing just that and he'll probably be a quick study, learning everything he needs to know within a short period of time. He previous training will be an asset there I think and will give him a bit of an advantage. I just don't think it's a good idea for him to go into this "knowing it all" already. That just wouldn't make sense to me since he comparatively has far less experience in the spy field than Helena B. does at this point. There are similarities between his training under Batman and the training spies undergo but that doesn't mean that the two are entirely interchangeable.


Playing up Dick's background as a performer would make a lot of sense in this context. That is an aspect of his past that has rarely been used to good effect, which is surprising considering the possibilities.  Higgins probably did more with it than anyone else, come down to that, and Seeley and King might be able to build off some of what Higgins did if they so desire.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, that's probably true.  Well, we will see.  Like JasonTodd says, this is going to be a very hard sell, and a critical one.  The staying dead, like I say, makes a lot of sense.  The rest ... once again as JasonTodd says, they are going to have to handle that just right.


Staying dead makes a lot of sense if Dick's wanting to protect the rest of the family and I can see him wanting to do that particularly given the kinds of enemies the Bat Family tends to make. Everything else though is going to be a tough sell. A really tough sell. I guess we'll have to wait for the final _Nightwing_ issue and maybe the first _Grayson_ issue to see how it goes. 




> Playing up Dick's background as a performer would make a lot of sense in this context. That is an aspect of his past that has rarely been used to good effect, which is surprising considering the possibilities.  Higgins probably did more with it than anyone else, come down to that, and Seeley and King might be able to build off some of what Higgins did if they so desire.


I'd like to see that aspect of Dick being put to use too and seeing Seeley and King building off of things Higgins did could make the transition between the two creative teams a bit smoother as well.

----------


## Conway

> Staying dead makes a lot of sense if Dick's wanting to protect the rest of the family and I can see him wanting to do that particularly given the kinds of enemies the Bat Family tends to make. Everything else though is going to be a tough sell. A really tough sell. I guess we'll have to wait for the final _Nightwing_ issue and maybe the first _Grayson_ issue to see how it goes.


See, it only makes sense in the idea that he doesn't want to put anyone else in danger, but Bruce and Tim are still out in the cold. It's not like their enemies (or commissioner Gordon) are going to forget that Nightwing was Dick Grayson. Babs is far enough removed from the situation that she's not in real danger. Jason is still dead and in hiding on a deserted island so he's safe. Damian is dead so there isn't a whole lot of trouble it will get him into, but Bruce and Tim are obviously Batman and Red Robin if Dick Grayson is Nightwing. The only way out for them is if someone shows up as Bruce and Tim at the funeral that Batman and Red Robin are at. For that matter, Damian has to show up too, since he's supposed to be at boarding school.

----------


## Dzetoun

> See, it only makes sense in the idea that he doesn't want to put anyone else in danger, but Bruce and Tim are still out in the cold. It's not like their enemies (or commissioner Gordon) are going to forget that Nightwing was Dick Grayson. Babs is far enough removed from the situation that she's not in real danger. Jason is still dead and in hiding on a deserted island so he's safe. Damian is dead so there isn't a whole lot of trouble it will get him into, but Bruce and Tim are obviously Batman and Red Robin if Dick Grayson is Nightwing. The only way out for them is if someone shows up as Bruce and Tim at the funeral that Batman and Red Robin are at. For that matter, Damian has to show up too, since he's supposed to be at boarding school.


That is a good point.  It would be an interesting idea for Bruce to stage a public funeral for Dick and attend with Batman at his side.  He could ask Jason to wear the cowl, since having Dick do it would be too dangerous as the Bat Family would surely recognize him.  But in this instance I guess they will probably be saved by the fact that Gotham is full of dullards.  After all, no one commented on the fact that Bruce's son disappeared to "Europe" at the same time Robin died, Robin being an obvious match in age, physical build, and hair color for said son.

However, just because Gotham is full of dullards doesn't make readers the same.  When it comes to how all this plays out, explanations that might satisfy your average Gothamite may well fall flat as part of the setup for _Grayson_.  Well, if anybody at DC can keep their foot out of the bear trap, it's probably Seeley.  At least his work for other publishers has shown a better feel for character and situation than that of the average "superhero" writer.

----------


## dropkickjake

Honestly, I think it would be a bit easier to take if Dick had an established cast of civilian friends. Currently, all his friends are vigilantes it seems. Vigilantes who can probably take care of themselves. I suppose villains could go after Babs or Bruce to "get to" Nightwing. Congratulations, you're dealing with Batgirl and Batgod. Best of luck. Maybe he could be defending Alfred?

Now, characters like Dick's room mates in Chicago, Sonia Branch, whatever is left of Haly's Circus, if someone went after them they'd be in a world of trouble. While it's believable that Dick cares deeply for these characters, the we as an audience never had much time with any set of supporting characters. Since we didn't have time, we also don't have much of an attachment to them, so we can't really _feel_ the weight of Dick sacrificing what he loves (superheroing) to protecting them.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Honestly, I think it would be a bit easier to take if Dick had an established cast of civilian friends. Currently, all his friends are vigilantes it seems. Vigilantes who can probably take care of themselves. I suppose villains could go after Babs or Bruce to "get to" Nightwing. Congratulations, you're dealing with Batgirl and Batgod. Best of luck. Maybe he could be defending Alfred?
> 
> Now, characters like Dick's room mates in Chicago, Sonia Branch, whatever is left of Haly's Circus, if someone went after them they'd be in a world of trouble. While it's believable that Dick cares deeply for these characters, the we as an audience never had much time with any set of supporting characters. Since we didn't have time, we also don't have much of an attachment to them, so we can't really _feel_ the weight of Dick sacrificing what he loves (superheroing) to protecting them.


Yeah, you have a very good point.  This is one of those places where the five year timeline and the loss of history and connections really hurts.  In the old continuity, one could think of any number of people that would be targets if Dick's identity were revealed.  Even if, granted, most of them would be vigilantes even in a pre-_Flashpoint_ world, there were still so *many* of them.  Now, not so much.  I think that's one reason even the unmasking fell a little flat.  The Crime Syndicate announced that "Richard Grayson has lived many places and has many friends," or something to that effect.  And I think a very common response was "Really?"  Owlman also makes mention of how how the Crime Syndicate has "destroyed" Dick's old life in Chicago, which implies a great deal of damage has already been done.

One good thing is that the creative team says they understand this and want to partially correct it by recovering aspects of Dick's story from the old timeline.  The announcement about Helena Bertinelli is certainly a step in that direction, and one wonders who else is waiting in the wings.  Bette Kane would be logical, and in fact if someone had said one of Dick's old female friends was returning as a partner I would have guessed her before Helena.  Still, with losing his connection to the Bat Family it is kind of one step forward, two back for the time being (I don't think anyone expects this situation to last permanently).  And the arguments about keeping people in the dark for their own protection would have been much more powerful if some of the recovery could have come *before* this happened.  

Of course, it's an assumption that they are going to use the "keep them in the dark for their own protection," line.  There's always the good of the mission (which puts us back into BatJerk territory again) or the protection angle could even be turned around to "keep everyone in the dark for *your* protection."  Seeley says that Spiral has techniques and technologies of illusion and mind erosion that will help keep Dick hidden effectively, and that could be part of the argument, as well.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

Being a spy means getting captured and knowing how to escape and not compromise your mission or the safety of those who work with you.

Nailed it!

----------


## Dzetoun

> Being a spy means getting captured and knowing how to escape and not compromise your mission or the safety of those who work with you.
> 
> Nailed it!


I'm sorry, that was kind of a non-sequitur.  Do you mean these are the talents Dick needs or the talents he already has?

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> I'm sorry, that was kind of a non-sequitur.  Do you mean these are the talents Dick needs or the talents he already has?


I'm being sarcastic in reference to his portrayal in Forever Evil.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, you have a very good point.  This is one of those places where the five year timeline and the loss of history and connections really hurts.  In the old continuity, one could think of any number of people that would be targets if Dick's identity were revealed.  Even if, granted, most of them would be vigilantes even in a pre-_Flashpoint_ world, there were still so *many* of them.  Now, not so much.  I think that's one reason even the unmasking fell a little flat.  The Crime Syndicate announced that "Richard Grayson has lived many places and has many friends," or something to that effect.  And I think a very common response was "Really?"  Owlman also makes mention of how how the Crime Syndicate has "destroyed" Dick's old life in Chicago, which implies a great deal of damage has already been done.
> 
> One good thing is that the creative team says they understand this and want to partially correct it by recovering aspects of Dick's story from the old timeline.  The announcement about Helena Bertinelli is certainly a step in that direction, and one wonders who else is waiting in the wings.  Bette Kane would be logical, and in fact if someone had said one of Dick's old female friends was returning as a partner I would have guessed her before Helena.  Still, with losing his connection to the Bat Family it is kind of one step forward, two back for the time being (I don't think anyone expects this situation to last permanently).  And the arguments about keeping people in the dark for their own protection would have been much more powerful if some of the recovery could have come *before* this happened.  
> 
> Of course, it's an assumption that they are going to use the "keep them in the dark for their own protection," line.  There's always the good of the mission (which puts us back into BatJerk territory again) or the protection angle could even be turned around to "keep everyone in the dark for *your* protection." * Seeley says that Spiral has techniques and technologies of illusion and mind erosion that will help keep Dick hidden effectively, and that could be part of the argument, as well*.


That bolded part has got me thinking what if it's Bruce being in protective parental mode here instead of Dick? I think on some level he would want to protect Dick because he has been the one protecting him from himself and would therefore feel that he can't afford to lose him as well. Bruce is still reeling from the loss of Damian and add Dick's near loss and his unmasking into the mix and I can see him wanting to do something, possibly something desperate, to insure that Dick was "safe" relatively speaking. Knowing that Dick wouldn't want to be made to feel useless he comes up with this plan in order to both protect Dick and to give him something to do.

----------


## Dzetoun

> That bolded part has got me thinking what if it's Bruce being in protective parental mode here instead of Dick? I think on some level he would want to protect Dick because he has been the one protecting him from himself and would therefore feel that he can't afford to lose him as well. Bruce is still reeling from the loss of Damian and add Dick's near loss and his unmasking into the mix and I can see him wanting to do something, possibly something desperate, to insure that Dick was "safe" relatively speaking. Knowing that Dick wouldn't want to be made to feel useless he comes up with this plan in order to both protect Dick and to give him something to do.


It is possible, and of course being Bruce he wouldn't want to *admit* that was his goal -- or one of them, because to be fair there is no reason he has to have only one.  If he can protect Dick, give him a purpose, and further his own mission at the same time, it's hard to see that as anything other than a triple play. Seeley has said that _Nightwing 30_ is their spin on some things in _Forever Evil 7_, and we have not yet seen how that subplot with Owlman is going to play out.  Somehow I don't think Owlman is likely to survive the fall of the Crime Syndicate.  It's hard to see Johns passing up a scene between the "brothers," and I can see a scene where a fatally wounded Owlman says something to the effect of "I let my Dick Grayson die, Bruce.  Whatever you have to do, don't make the same mistake."  Yes, I cringe as I write it, but I could see that happening.  Bruce could then come up with the idea of hiding Dick using the resources and technology of Spyral, and sell it to his protégé as a way of protecting his friends and continuing the heroic mission by other means.

----------


## Neowing

Could anyone explain what the heck is happening in this awesome art?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Could anyone explain what the heck is happening in this awesome art?


According to the solicit, in five years time Dick is now regarded as a traitor and is living in a resurgent Russia as that country's most powerful hero.  His only rival is some form of KGBeast, and this book is about their final confrontation.  So, the theme of the art, I guess, is "From Gotham to Moscow in triumph," or some such.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> Could anyone explain what the heck is happening in this awesome art?




I hear the Rocky theme "Gonna Fly Now".

----------


## Conway

> According to the solicit, in five years time Dick is now regarded as a traitor and is living in a resurgent Russia as that country's most powerful hero.  His only rival is some form of KGBeast, and this book is about their final confrontation.  So, the theme of the art, I guess, is "From Gotham to Moscow in triumph," or some such.


What he said... or wait... did you mean that he's got the cleft chin again?

----------


## ABH

I like the "Grayson" title-font.

----------


## Maxpower00044

Anyone else notice he doesn't have a big G in the middle of his chest? I hope that's permanent.

----------


## R0NIN

Wait so they're actually trying to say this Spy nonsense is not only going to last 5 years but he's going to become Red Star?

----------


## Neowing

> According to the solicit, in five years time Dick is now regarded as a traitor and is living in a resurgent Russia as that country's most powerful hero.  His only rival is some form of KGBeast, and this book is about their final confrontation.  So, the theme of the art, I guess, is "From Gotham to Moscow in triumph," or some such.


I see, thanks mate.

----------


## Rakiduam

And this gets worse and worse. With 2 issues in and Mikel Janin is already skipping a month.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I like the "Grayson" title-font.


Seems to be the same title-font as the _Nightwing_ one only without the bat in the background.

----------


## Neowing

Why can't he be Nightwing? :/

----------


## Maxpower00044

> And this gets worse and worse. With 2 issues in and Mikel Janin is already skipping a month.


2 things:

- it's a special September month, and both previous Septembers shuffled creative teams around on some books. So, it's not surprising. 

- Stephen Mooney is an awesome artist (awesome writer, too!). Everyone should pick up the Half Past Danger trade. It was one of the best books going.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It is possible, and of course being Bruce he wouldn't want to *admit* that was his goal -- or one of them, because to be fair there is no reason he has to have only one.  If he can protect Dick, give him a purpose, and further his own mission at the same time, it's hard to see that as anything other than a triple play. Seeley has said that _Nightwing 30_ is their spin on some things in _Forever Evil 7_, and we have not yet seen how that subplot with Owlman is going to play out.  Somehow I don't think Owlman is likely to survive the fall of the Crime Syndicate.  It's hard to see Johns passing up a scene between the "brothers," and I can see a scene where a fatally wounded Owlman says something to the effect of "I let my Dick Grayson die, Bruce.  Whatever you have to do, don't make the same mistake."  Yes, I cringe as I write it, but I could see that happening.  Bruce could then come up with the idea of hiding Dick using the resources and technology of Spyral, and sell it to his protégé as a way of protecting his friends and continuing the heroic mission by other means.


No, he probably wouldn't admit that to anyone else though it would be interesting if he did so. Of course even if he didn't say as much Dick might just figure it out on his own anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

> Anyone else notice he doesn't have a big G in the middle of his chest? I hope that's permanent.


What i noticed is the he's wearing red again  :Mad:

----------


## Dzetoun

> No, he probably wouldn't admit that to anyone else though it would be interesting if he did so. Of course even if he didn't say as much Dick might just figure it out on his own anyway.


Yeah.  Well, I guess they could go the Pak route and just use thought narratives.  Provided, of course, that there's anything to this at all.  




> What i noticed is the he's wearing red again


More greens and grays, actually.

----------


## Godlike13

> More greens and grays, actually.


No, im talking about the non Russian image. The patch on his chest and in his gloves. Its red again. I thought we were getting some blue back.

----------


## Dzetoun

> No, im talking about the non Russian image. The patch on his chest and in his gloves. Its red again. I thought we were getting some blue back.


True.  But now that the face is oh so much better, maybe they can work on the colors.

----------


## ABH

> Seems to be the same title-font as the _Nightwing_ one only without the bat in the background.


Heh, guess that explains why I like it.

It's cool how both the "N" and the "G" in "Nightwing" have the little wing-tips, and the "Grayson" title has the same, only the "G" and "N" are on opposite ends.

----------


## Neowing

I feel the Nightwing days are over, if the new series becomes a success then that's goodbye.

----------


## Badou

> Could anyone explain what the heck is happening in this awesome art?


So Dick becomes Red Star? Shame he is a "traitor" and probably going to be absent from most of the bigger/more interesting parts of Future's End. At least the cover artist drew his face a lot better here. 






> Anyone else notice he doesn't have a big G in the middle of his chest? I hope that's permanent.


He was never going to have a big G on his chest. The G was only going to be on the clasp that is holding his holster. So it was going to be pretty small.

----------


## K. Jones

Hoo-boy, a Roma as the hero of Russia! Wild!

While I always like a little bit of a From Russia, With Love vibe (just watched it last night ... so sixties, so good, very appropriate for Dick Grayson), I mean ... how is "Five Years From Now" covered with Cold War Soviet symbols? I've not only gotten used to, but rather like that the earlier parts of my life, the pop culture and the zeitgeist, feel like a period piece these days. But perhaps King's willing to get a little political - we're talking a Russia that's post-Earth 2/Apokolips war. Strange forces could be at play that revive some historical movements in a modern context.

Either way, the direction of Grayson is wild enough that I'm all in, even for a September that's basically a skip month for a LOT of titles that don't start with Green and end with Arrow.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> He was never going to have a big G on his chest. The G was only going to be on the clasp that is holding his holster. So it was going to be pretty small.


1397500147000-GRAYSON-COMICS-jy-3912-.JPG


That looks bigger than it has to be. Also, the placement between this (which looks bad), and the FE cover (that looks better), helps a lot.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> No, im talking about the non Russian image. The patch on his chest and in his gloves. Its red again. I thought we were getting some blue back.


Well this is an issue happening in a "future" that will likely never come to pass so maybe it's only for this issue? Still I like the blue better than the red. 




> I feel the Nightwing days are over, if the new series becomes a success then that's goodbye.


I don't think his Nightwing days are over myself but I guess time will tell. 




> Hoo-boy, a Roma as the hero of Russia! Wild!
> 
> While I always like a little bit of a From Russia, With Love vibe (just watched it last night ... so sixties, so good, very appropriate for Dick Grayson), I mean ... how is "Five Years From Now" covered with Cold War Soviet symbols? I've not only gotten used to, but rather like that the earlier parts of my life, the pop culture and the zeitgeist, feel like a period piece these days. But perhaps King's willing to get a little political - we're talking a Russia that's post-Earth 2/Apokolips war. Strange forces could be at play that revive some historical movements in a modern context.
> 
> Either way, the direction of Grayson is wild enough that I'm all in, even for a September that's basically a skip month for a LOT of titles that don't start with Green and end with Arrow.


Yeah, this might be one of the few September event issues that I might buy when it comes out though I'm going to probably skip most of the rest of them unless they pique my interest.

----------


## Neowing

I wouldn't mind someone new becoming Nightwing. Someone with superpowers would be a nice change of pace

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I wouldn't mind someone new becoming Nightwing. Someone with superpowers would be a nice change of pace


That could be interesting and I wouldn't mind it either.

----------


## Agent 37

> I hear the Rocky theme "Gonna Fly Now".



Hahaha. Yep

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hahaha. Yep


Yeah, me too.

----------


## CagedLeo730

Grayson must break you!

----------


## dropkickjake

> No, im talking about the non Russian image. The patch on his chest and in his gloves. Its red again. I thought we were getting some blue back.


To be fair, that is a five-years-from-"now" Dick Grayson who is a hero of a five-years-from-"now" Russia who is apparently rocking the whole Soviet thing again. Moreover, if I am to understand Futures End correctly, this future will be changed to never happen.




> True.  But now that the face is oh so much better, maybe they can work on the colors.


I checked out that guys tumblr or website or something, and I have to say, he pretty much draws everyone with a preposterously prominent chin.

----------


## Neowing

> 


So much lol 3710920-3796464610-30424.jpg

----------


## OBrianTallent

I'm ready for DC to start releasing some of the artwork.  Can't wait to see Janin's take on Grayson (and Helena.)  

I'm really looking forward to this series and even kind of hoping for a Steed and Mrs Peel feel to it maybe.   :Smile:

----------


## R0NIN

Grayson and guns don't mix.....

----------


## Dzetoun

> I'm ready for DC to start releasing some of the artwork.  Can't wait to see Janin's take on Grayson (and Helena.)  
> 
> I'm really looking forward to this series and even kind of hoping for a Steed and Mrs Peel feel to it maybe.


Yeah, an _Avengers_ (British version) template might work really well.  _Batman Incorporated_, from which _Grayson_ is supposedly going to take elements, already had some of that.  Kathy Kane with her golden gun was an echo of Diana Rigg/Emma Peel in some ways.  Throw in some fun elements from Bond (of course), _Mission Impossible_ (to which the very first image we saw was a shout out), _I, Spy_, and _The Man from U.N.C.L.E._, and it could be a blast.

----------


## Neowing

Dick could always ask Dr Fate to make people forget his identity. :P

I'm just worried that the writers are gonna make Dick fire a gun, I just can't see Dick doing that.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Dick could always ask Dr Fate to make people forget his identity. :P
> 
> I'm just worried that the writers are gonna make Dick fire a gun, I just can't see Dick doing that.


Well, he would have to make the entire world forget, which is a bit much even for someone as powerful as Dr. Fate.  As interesting and even exciting as _Grayson_ is, I do feel a bit sorry for the writers and editors that have to clean up after _Forever Evil_ and it's effects on the Batman Line.  Johns really did put them behind the eight ball with this one.  You can almost hear the conversation at the bar among the editors:

*QUESTION*:  What the *%^($#!* are we going to do about Dick Grayson if this thing with Spyral doesn't take off?
*ANSWER*:  *!@%#@!* if I know.  Wonder what Marvel would charge to rent Mephisto for a month?

----------


## Kuwagaton

> I'm ready for DC to start releasing some of the artwork.  Can't wait to see Janin's take on Grayson (and Helena.)


Janin is good, but I'm kinda worried it'll look stiff.

----------


## Punisher007

Dick was a cop for awhile in the old continuity.  Cops carry guns, so it's not that out of character.

----------


## Conway

> Dick was a cop for awhile in the old continuity.  Cops carry guns, so it's not that out of character.


I think it's been discussed before, but I'm not sure anyone's brought it up since the reboot (the CBR reboot not DC). Yes, he carried a gun as required by the job but he went out of his way to not use it. This is different, a gun is not required for the job of covert agent, and the creative team has said he'll use it.

----------


## M L A

I'm honestly fine with him using the gun... IF it's a gradual thing (and he's not out killing people left and right), and from what the creative team has said, it seems like it will. I imagine he'll be getting into arguments with whoever about using a gun and his side will be more than "dad told me not to". But I think throughout the book he'll be getting more and more out of his comfort zone and he'll have to cope with that and work with it.

----------


## Claude

Y'know, idle thought.... We know that Grayson As Super Spy was an editorial concept, that writers were asked to pitch for. So the idea came first. It's spinning out of Forever Evil, with Johns setting up elements that will lead Dick down this path in next week's Forever Evil #7....

You don't suppose he's planning on using "Agent Grayson" in the JL title, do you? I mean, not necessarily in a _major_ way, but we know that the League wont be working with ARGUS any more, and is actively being worked against. Leaving aside that Johns seems to enjoy the Wallers and Trevors of this world, and brings them right into the centre of such things, a League-loyal Super Spy Contact would be a very useful thing for Our Heroes during the kinds of storylines Johns is setting up.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Y'know, idle thought.... We know that Grayson As Super Spy was an editorial concept, that writers were asked to pitch for. So the idea came first. It's spinning out of Forever Evil, with Johns setting up elements that will lead Dick down this path in next week's Forever Evil #7....
> 
> You don't suppose he's planning on using "Agent Grayson" in the JL title, do you? I mean, not necessarily in a _major_ way, but we know that the League wont be working with ARGUS any more, and is actively being worked against. Leaving aside that Johns seems to enjoy the Wallers and Trevors of this world, and brings them right into the centre of such things, a League-loyal Super Spy Contact would be a very useful thing for Our Heroes during the kinds of storylines Johns is setting up.


It's possible.  I'm not sure that Johns would be that deep into the weeds with a Bat character, however, even one of which he proclaims himself to be a stalwart fan.  The ins and outs of this decision are a mystery.  Right now all we know is that Seeley was asked to pitch for a Grayson spy comic by editorial.  We don't know if anyone else was invited to make a pitch using this concept, or where the concept came from.  It would seem that the development with Seeley came quite late, as even in January Tynion was strongly hinting that he would be writing Dick Grayson's new book.  

So, I guess it's plausible that Agent Grayson might eventually become a _Justice League_ character, but I don't think we have nearly enough evidence to guess as to whether there is some great plan in place or not -- other than to say that long-term planning, or even middle-term planning, is not usually a DC strength.  Also, Johns is under great pressure to limit his creative activities and focus on his job as liaison with Warner Bros for TV and movie development.  If he were to be thinking in terms of future plans, he might be more likely to think of the need for some kind of secret agent property to pitch to Warner Bros sometime in the next two or three years.

----------


## Claude

> It's possible.  I'm not sure that Johns would be that deep into the weeds with a Bat character, however, even one of which he proclaims himself to be a stalwart fan.


He _did_ write that whole "Jason Todd and Alfred reflect on the death of Damien" opening to an issue a while back, so I don't think he's _opposed_ to dipping into the Bat Verse. Not to mention Nightwing's appearance in the title during the "meet and greet", and his involving the League briefly in the Night Of The Owls.


Plus, it's a _slightly_ different thing now. Sure, _Nightwing_ would never become noticeably regular Cameo Guest Star, for the same reason that Batgirl wouldn't. They're Bat Family people in the same niche as Batman himself. As an uncostumed Spy Character with now far few visual or plot overlaps with Batman, Dick might be more palatable for inclusion.





> The ins and outs of this decision are a mystery.  Right now all we know is that Seeley was asked to pitch for a Grayson spy comic by editorial.  We don't know if anyone else was invited to make a pitch using this concept, or where the concept came from.


Ah, not quite so! Seeley and King are cowriting because DC liked both of their pitches for Spy Grayson, and both were asked if they could collaborate. So although you're right, the ins and outs _are_ a mystery, we know that the concept was on the table before the creative teams.




> It would seem that the development with Seeley came quite late, as even in January Tynion was strongly hinting that he would be writing Dick Grayson's new book.


Certainly true. Although as late as January, they were still going with the _original_ FE #7 for it to spin out of!  :Big Grin: 




> So, I guess it's plausible that Agent Grayson might eventually become a _Justice League_ character, but I don't think we have nearly enough evidence to guess as to whether there is some great plan in place or not -- other than to say that long-term planning, or even middle-term planning, is not usually a DC strength.


What they do _far_ better than long-term planning is "going all-in on a Sudden Idea" though! :d I wouldn't be _at all_ surprised to learn that "Superman off the League, Luthor on" wasn't a vastly older idea than Superspy Grayson, for instance. In much the same way that it's very hard to believe that Atomica was planned to be traitor in the, what, five months that she was introduced before she was "revealed"?






> Also, Johns is under great pressure to limit his creative activities and focus on his job as liaison with Warner Bros for TV and movie development.  If he were to be thinking in terms of future plans, he might be more likely to think of the need for some kind of secret agent property to pitch to Warner Bros sometime in the next two or three years.


This is certainly true though. Although I think "Grayson" is more marketable as a TV show or movie than "Nightwing", Johns is more likely to be working on getting Shazam and the Metal Men (And Cyborg?) to full Mass Media Readiness than to muddy the waters by bringing in another property onto his "To Elevate" list.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Ah, not quite so! Seeley and King are cowriting because DC liked both of their pitches for Spy Grayson, and both were asked if they could collaborate. So although you're right, the ins and outs _are_ a mystery, we know that the concept was on the table before the creative teams.


I had not heard that.  That is certainly very interesting.




> What they do _far_ better than long-term planning is "going all-in on a Sudden Idea" though! :d I wouldn't be _at all_ surprised to learn that "Superman off the League, Luthor on" wasn't a vastly older idea than Superspy Grayson, for instance. In much the same way that it's very hard to believe that Atomica was planned to be traitor in the, what, five months that she was introduced before she was "revealed"?


I certainly agree that _Trinity War_ shows the scars from what was evidently some late major changes, most especially the fact that Atomica's entire personality changes in the space of a single panel.  Talk about a superspy!  And it is possible that plans for _Forever Evil_ shifted once or twice or ten times as well.  I have wondered if perhaps Johns originally intended Nightwing to play the role Batman is now filling, but was forced to change plans when editorial insisted he had to bring in the big gun for sales and marketing purposes.  It might explain why Nightwing's role in the event hasn't lined up with Johns' rhetoric, and why he has had so little to do.  Johns might have had to scramble at the last minute and fell back on the "boy hostage" strategy as an excuse to keep Nightwing in the story.  Then again, others have pointed out that Johns has a history of rhetoric not lining up with results, _Flashpoint_ for example, and that a lot of this can be explained by the fact that he likes dramatic plot twists but just isn't very good at setting them up.




> This is certainly true though. Although I think "Grayson" is more marketable as a TV show or movie than "Nightwing", Johns is more likely to be working on getting Shazam and the Metal Men (And Cyborg?) to full Mass Media Readiness than to muddy the waters by bringing in another property onto his "To Elevate" list.


That's true, and there's the fact that most of the general public to whom TV and Movies have to be aimed don't even know Dick Grayson as Nightwing, but still think of him as Robin.  On the other hand, these things involve both push and pull.  One can imagine, for instance, that someone at Warner Bros might have said, "Well, _Agents of Shield_ isn't as big a hit as Marvel hoped, but it's successful enough and spies always have big potential.  Do you think you'll have anything along those lines for us sometime in the next couple of years?"  In such a hypothetical scenario (which I am not arguing for) Johns might have observed that Trevor is too closely linked to Wonder Woman, and Waller isn't sympathetic enough to carry a series.  The other possibilities, like King Faraday, are too obscure.  So something else needs to be set up.

----------


## Phil3940



----------


## Neowing

Looking at above, Jason makes much more sense to be a spy lol.

Why is Dick not wearing a mask? Did he forget that the whole world saw his face? I guess they couldn't sell the james bond vibe with a mask

----------


## R0NIN

> Looking at above, Jason makes more sense to be a spy..


Yep.  Honestly I feel like Jason and Dick in the new 52 really needed to be flip flopped. With Nightwing on the Titans/Outsiders book and JT in Chicago or coming down hard on criminals and corrupt law alike.

----------


## KurtW95

So it's been confirmed that Dick will be carrying a real gun. Man I really hope the rumor about a new Crisis is true.

----------


## Neowing

> So it's been confirmed that Dick will be carrying a real gun. Man I really hope the rumor about a new Crisis is true.


Source? And this sucks, I was hoping Dick would carry a flare gun like the Spyral agent The Hood.

----------


## sidekick77

> So it's been confirmed that Dick will be carrying a real gun. Man I really hope the rumor about a new Crisis is true.


Dick has carried a real gun before.  He spent several years as a cop in Bludhaven, holding guns, firing guns at test ranges.  *Being issued a firearm does not equate to having a free license to shoot it off whenever you want*--nor is Dick the type to do that.  Even within Agencies its regulated, do not confuse it with a military task force running an op.  An ideal situation for any field agent is to collect information without drawing attention, and to destabilize through that collection.  I know that last image of Kathy Kane is quite the polarizing image for Spyral and their usage of guns--but again, Kathy Kane is NOT Dick Grayson.  Dick Grayson is not even Jason Todd for that matter.

If King and Seeley are applying these sensibilities to the book, why is everyone frothing at the mouth over this cover art?  Before post-Crisis characterization turned Batman into an over-bearing sanctimonious @ss on guns, meta-users, and people who still had parents, Bruce understood firearms.  He trained with guns, made sure his proteges understood them and their lethality.  Guns are an understandable stigma for Bruce, but not for everyone else.  Dick firing a gun would have to be an absolute last resort or something he knew the outcome would be non-lethal.

HOWEVER, any action is really not for Bruce's approval/non-approval.  Dick had legal authority in BCPD, and for whatever we assume about Spyral outside of Morridon's INC, if I'm understanding first interview correctly, is Bruce not the one trying to push Dick into this network following his compromised identification??

----------


## Punisher007

> Looking at above, Jason makes much more sense to be a spy lol.
> 
> Why is Dick not wearing a mask? Did he forget that the whole world saw his face? I guess they couldn't sell the james bond vibe with a mask


That seems to be a common cliché with fictional spies.  Bond introduces himself using his real name and realistic Black Widow shouldn't be able to operate as a spy anymore either because the entire world has seen her acting very publically as a member of the Avengers and should know her face.

----------


## ABH

I know it's not a very beloved part of Batman's history, but in Year 2, Batman carried and used a gun (_The_ Gun that killed is parents), and never killed anyone with it. Maybe Grayson will learn to become some sort of trick-shot.

----------


## Badou

> Y'know, idle thought.... We know that Grayson As Super Spy was an editorial concept, that writers were asked to pitch for. So the idea came first. It's spinning out of Forever Evil, with Johns setting up elements that will lead Dick down this path in next week's Forever Evil #7....
> 
> You don't suppose he's planning on using "Agent Grayson" in the JL title, do you? I mean, not necessarily in a _major_ way, but we know that the League wont be working with ARGUS any more, and is actively being worked against. Leaving aside that Johns seems to enjoy the Wallers and Trevors of this world, and brings them right into the centre of such things, a League-loyal Super Spy Contact would be a very useful thing for Our Heroes during the kinds of storylines Johns is setting up.


I don't think there is any bigger plan in place. I get the feeling the Spy direction is just to holdover the character until they can figure out what to do with the mess Johns has created. It's a way to keep the character out of any of the other titles, especially the Batman ones, so they don't have to deal with him being "dead" and having his identity exposed. So out of sight out of mind. No way is he going to do anything in the Justice League books. We are up through the August solicits and none of the other books seem to care that his life was destroyed. They are still doing their own thing waiting until this all passes.

----------


## Agent 37

> I'm ready for DC to start releasing some of the artwork.  Can't wait to see Janin's take on Grayson (and Helena.)  
> 
> I'm really looking forward to this series and even kind of hoping for a Steed and Mrs Peel feel to it maybe.


image.jpg

*This is beautiful!! Very stoked!! I see an escrima stick!!*

----------


## M L A

I still don't understand what is on his torso, but damn. That art. 

Dick's hair seems to be longer on this cover and that makes me happy.

And Helenaaaaa. Yes.

----------


## Winterboy

Liked it. 

Where is Helena???????????  :Smile:

----------


## Conway

> *This is beautiful!! Very stoked!! I see an escrima stick!!*


That is great artwork... but... I still have a feeling Helena is going to be a little more ethnic than the catholic white girl she was, and I don't think that there is any way they could have made Dick look more like a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent. That might as well be Mikel Fury, or Grant Ward.

----------


## ABH

> Attachment 2237
> 
> *This is beautiful!! Very stoked!! I see an escrima stick!!*


Yep, looking good.

Godlike will be happy to see some blue back on the uniform.  :Smile:

----------


## HLOTS

> That is great artwork... but... I still have a feeling Helena is going to be a little more ethnic than the catholic white girl she was, and I don't think that there is any way they could have made Dick look more like a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent. That might as well be Mikel Fury, or Graham Ward.



I still think DC/WB is trying to capitalize on Marvel's TWS success by turning Dick into an agent of S.P.Y.R.A.L.  Hopefully for the character, it works out.

As for Helena, could be. That might explain the curly hair.

----------


## dropkickjake

Holy Cow that artwork is gorgeous. Blue accents and an escrima are welcome sights, as is Helena's crossbow! Man, I can't wait for this.

edit to add:

It also looks like he is wearing addidas. Awesome.

----------


## KurtW95

> Source? And this sucks, I was hoping Dick would carry a flare gun like the Spyral agent The Hood.


http://www.newsarama.com/21124-grays...e-partner.html

----------


## Conway

> I still think DC/WB is trying to capitalize on Marvel's TWS success by turning Dick into an agent of S.P.Y.R.A.L.  Hopefully for the character, it works out.
> 
> As for Helena, could be. That might explain the curly hair.


That's obvious, but every time I mention it someone accuses me of "being psychic" because it isn't out yet. Short of there being a Cosmic Cube and an amputated arm I can't think of how they could make the premise more like Winter Soldier, though. 

I guess with all the "James Bond" and CIA talk I was hoping for more of a "Micheal Weston" vibe and less of a "Seal Team 6 incursion" vibe. I mean body harness, compression shirt, and baggy cargo pants are less "Secret Agent" and more assassin. On the other hand perfectly tailored pants would let them keep the a... umm... rear end shots that has made Dick such a success with the female fans.

----------


## dropkickjake

> That's obvious, but every time I mention it someone accuses me of "being psychic" because it isn't out yet. Short of there being a Cosmic Cube and an amputated arm I can't think of how they could make the premise more like Winter Soldier, though. 
> 
> I guess with all the "James Bond" and CIA talk I was hoping for more of a "Micheal Weston" vibe and less of a "Seal Team 6 incursion" vibe. I mean body harness, compression shirt, and baggy cargo pants are less "Secret Agent" and more assassin. On the other hand perfectly tailored pants would let them keep the a... umm... rear end shots that has made Dick such a success with the female fans.


With all the talk of Dick seducing people and the like (not that I'm a fan of it), I'd assumed that we'll still see some perfectly tailored suits. My guess is that this is what Dick will wear for action scenes, or the equivalent of in-costume-Nightwing scenes. 

And I may have been one to say the movie wasn't even out yet (in regards to you're first statement). If I was, I think I'll have to change my tune now. I don't necessarily think it was due to CA:TWS, though, as much as the successful concept of SHIELD in general in the MCU that prompted DC editorial to go this route with Dick. I do think that he has more name recognition than either Trevor or Waller, and thus could be the foundation of DC's espionage branch. I'd be alright with it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I don't think there is any bigger plan in place. I get the feeling the Spy direction is just to holdover the character until they can figure out what to do with the mess Johns has created. It's a way to keep the character out of any of the other titles, especially the Batman ones, so they don't have to deal with him being "dead" and having his identity exposed. So out of sight out of mind. No way is he going to do anything in the Justice League books. We are up through the August solicits and none of the other books seem to care that his life was destroyed. They are still doing their own thing waiting until this all passes.


What would you expect the solicits for the other books to say? Honest question.  Why would Dick's situation be reflected in solicits for other characters' books?

----------


## sidekick77

> That's obvious, but every time I mention it someone accuses me of "being psychic" because it isn't out yet. Short of there being a Cosmic Cube and an amputated arm I can't think of how they could make the premise more like Winter Soldier, though.


eh, the Winter Soldier comparisons are there, but shallow at best.  Dick is not going into a spy network clinically dead, suffering amnesia, and running off autopilot.  You get to see him interacting on a level where he has to make cognizant choices that may put his beliefs and methods at conflict.  Plus, Batman knows he's alive--and so do we.  

On that front, Kathy Kane has more in common with Bucky Barnes.  Old ally, believed to be dead, surprise reveals shows she's alive, working for a spy network, and taking out peeps with extreme prejudice.

----------


## The World

> Attachment 2237
> 
> *This is beautiful!! Very stoked!! I see an escrima stick!!*



Looking good, Looking good. Just hope this series is good.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

Yeah, this only looks like SHIELD to new or short-sighted comic readers. 

SHIELD is lame. So is anyone named "Bucky" that isn't a cartoon beaver or something.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Yeah, this only looks like SHIELD to new or short-sighted comic readers. 
> 
> SHIELD is lame. So is anyone named "Bucky" that isn't a cartoon beaver or something.


That got a chuckle out of me, I'll admit that.

----------


## Aioros22

Haters gonna hate. 

I really don`t see the basis on complaints or fear that suddently Dick is going to start going John Wayne with that gun. For all we know it can be a tranq gun. What people need to retain is the fundamental essence that Dick is not Jason, just as Jason is not Dick. It`s simple as that. We know it, editors know it and writers are paid to know it. 

He may have changed to a new direction but they have to keep the minimum requirements for him to be recognized as "Dick Grayson" to the fanbase.

----------


## Bruce Wayne

Even if this is completely crap we should at least thank Seely for giving us back Helena.

----------


## Badou

> What would you expect the solicits for the other books to say? Honest question.  Why would Dick's situation be reflected in solicits for other characters' books?


I guess I just figured that a major character "dying" and having his identity being exposed would turn the Batman franchise on its head, but there is no sign of it. That is what I was getting at mostly, and the fact that because there is no sign of this being that big of a thing I don't feel there is a larger plan in place for it. I think DC regrets doing it. You get the feeling that the Bat line is content with not dealing with the mess the JL office and Johns put in their lap so that is why they sent Dick away so they can focus on Eternal, Synder's new story arc and so on uninterrupted.  

You could argue that what happened to Dick is bigger than Damian dying. So they could have had a special Batgirl issue, or Batman and Robin issue, dealing with the fallout of FE and with Dick's "death" (the solicit would advertise it as such) and something like that would really give the impression that what happened to Dick is a major event, could maybe boost sales a bit of some of the other titles, but you don't get that feeling at all. We will probably get some quick mentions here and there about Dick in other series, but those series will continue on like they would have regardless with what happened to Dick probably.

----------


## byrd156

I went to the comic shop today and bought some 52 issues (the maxi series, not relaunch) and in the back of week 12 in the DC Nation area Dan Didio is talking about all the fan backlash from him wanting to kill Dick off. It's pretty funny, because he is trying to praise him and explain himself at the same time.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Combine the fact that there are too many Robins (and side-kicks) and you see that the DC creative teams are stuck NOT knowing where to go with Nightwing.
> 
> DC should have taken a less popular character (Red Robin) to use for the is "spy game" story arc but decided to use Dick so as to pander to more interest and better sales. Nightwing has too many story arcs and "roots" establishing his character and place in the DC Universe that Red Robin lacks.
> 
> Did I mention that Dicks identity exposure also blows massive holes in the continuation of Batmans secret identity? 
> You cannot distance Dick from Bruce in the same way as distancing Tim Drake and with the exposure of Dick as Nightwing...only a fool wound NOT trace that back to Bruce Wayne.


All of those roots were eliminated with the New 52. Dick is just the first Robin, a teenager who hung out with Batman for a year.

----------


## byrd156

> All of those roots were eliminated with the New 52. Dick is just the first Robin, a teenager who hung out with Batman for a year.


Since he has nothing left, DC can just do whatever they want with him.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Since he has nothing left, DC can just do whatever they want with him.


You say that as if the spy route is not interesting and fun.

----------


## SpiderWing20

> You say that as if the spy route is not interesting and fun.


Trust me, he doesn't think so

----------


## oasis1313

> I went to the comic shop today and bought some 52 issues (the maxi series, not relaunch) and in the back of week 12 in the DC Nation area Dan Didio is talking about all the fan backlash from him wanting to kill Dick off. It's pretty funny, because he is trying to praise him and explain himself at the same time.


Can you put that here for the rest of us?  I haven't found it.  Thanks!

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> You say that as if the spy route is not interesting and fun.


Yeah, he just doesn't like it. Lol no matter what.

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, he just doesn't like it. Lol no matter what.


Yeah I don't like it at all, I think its completely stupid. I'm still going to buy it because it's Dick Grayson.

----------


## RobinFan4880

> Yeah I don't like it at all, I think its completely stupid. I'm still going to buy it because it's Dick Grayson.


*face palm*

Don't buy things you don't like!

----------


## byrd156

> *face palm*
> 
> Don't buy things you don't like!


I still like the character. Just because I don't like premise doesn't mean I cant change my mind later.

Besides this whole hero turn spy route has already been done with Roy Harper.

----------


## oasis1313

> I still like the character. Just because I don't like premise doesn't mean I cant change my mind later.
> 
> Besides this whole hero turn spy route has already been done with Roy Harper.


But not in the New 52, so that means it never happened.  I keep going downstairs to see if my huge collection of trade paperbacks has crumbled to dust yet since none of it ever happened.

----------


## byrd156

> But not in the New 52, so that means it never happened.  I keep going downstairs to see if my huge collection of trade paperbacks has crumbled to dust yet since none of it ever happened.


True, very true but is Roy being a spy still in continuity?

----------


## RobinFan4880

Back on topic... I hope the midnighter becomes a big part of Dick's life. It would be an interesting contrast to Bruce. 




> I still like the character. Just because I don't like premise doesn't mean I cant change my mind later.
> 
> Besides this whole hero turn spy route has already been done with Roy Harper.


Then buy it in Trade or on a .99 cent ComiXology sale.

----------


## byrd156

> Back on topic... I hope the midnighter becomes a big part of Dick's life. It would be an interesting contrast to Bruce. 
> 
> 
> 
> Then buy it in Trade or on a .99 cent ComiXology sale.


Why do you care if I buy it when it comes out? 

Who is Midnighter anyway?

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> Back on topic... I hope the midnighter becomes a big part of Dick's life. It would be an interesting contrast to Bruce. 
> 
> 
> 
> Then buy it in Trade or on a .99 cent ComiXology sale.


Yeah, it would be fun to have him stick around. Their banter will be a lot of fun.

----------


## oasis1313

> Since he has nothing left, DC can just do whatever they want with him.


Not necessarily.  Not a good idea to anger the Wingnuts TOO much.  It's a good thing they're usually grateful for very little.

----------


## byrd156

> Not necessarily.  Not a good idea to anger the Wingnuts TOO much.  It's a good thing they're usually grateful for very little.


Can you really call dick's fanbase the wingnuts now?

----------


## oasis1313

> Can you really call dick's fanbase the wingnuts now?


They are what they are--very devoted and very protective.  But it sounds nicer than calling them Dickheads.

----------


## byrd156

> They are what they are--very devoted and very protective.  But it sounds nicer than calling them Dickheads.


Yes I know, but what can the name be changed to now since he is no longer NW?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

So judging by the Spyral "hit list", Wonder Woman should be the next superhero to be exposed. Wonder what special item Spyral will capture this time.

----------


## byrd156

> So judging by the Spyral "hit list", Wonder Woman should be the next superhero to be exposed. Wonder what special item Spyral will capture this time.


Probably the heart or lungs, I don't know. Why was Aquaman's body part eyes?

----------


## oasis1313

> Probably the heart or lungs, I don't know. Why was Aquaman's body part eyes?


Yeah, why wasn't it gills?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Probably the heart or lungs, I don't know. Why was Aquaman's body part eyes?





> Yeah, why wasn't it gills?


As I recall, Seeley and King said Aquaman has a kind of super-vision to allow him to see through miles of murky water.  Makes sense, actually, although I would have thought lungs were more appropriate (has he ever had gills?).

Anyway, evidently this Paragon thing was assembled using cloned tissues from actual heroes (or maybe it's from another universe where the heroes were vivisected).  I guess that's how Spyral is using the organs to track down identities, through DNA matches and such.  

I guess the question that comes up next, and which may be the subject of the next arc/season, is who assembled Paragon, how did they get the tissues, and what are they up to now.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> As I recall, Seeley and King said Aquaman has a kind of super-vision to allow him to see through miles of murky water.  Makes sense, actually, although I would have thought lungs were more appropriate (has he ever had gills?).
> 
> Anyway, evidently this Paragon thing was assembled using cloned tissues from actual heroes (or maybe it's from another universe where the heroes were vivisected).  I guess that's how Spyral is using the organs to track down identities, through DNA matches and such.  
> 
> I guess the question that comes up next, and which may be the subject of the next arc/season, is who assembled Paragon, how did they get the tissues, and what are they up to now.


Do you think they could have been from different universes?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Do you think they could have been from different universes?


It's possible, and certainly with the Multiverse becoming a big deal that would fit with the greater DCU.  But I think it would be more effective for the story if there were a group out there stealing hero DNA.  The writers need to come up with some excuse for Dick to keep up his current direction after Mr. Minos is defeated. Saying that Minos was only a secondary threat, with the real danger to the hero community and the world coming from whoever made Paragon, would be a good way to do that. Perhaps a post-Minos Spyral would make tracking down Paragon's creators one of its top priorities, with Dick and Helena being the agents in charge. 

Also, Seeley and King have said that they have come up with a good reason for Midnighter to stay around in _Grayson_. Midnighter destroyed the original Paragon. He is obviously interested in tracking down the organs.  Having him and Dick join together to find Paragon's creators and foil their current plots would be very plausible.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's possible, and certainly with the Multiverse becoming a big deal that would fit with the greater DCU.  But I think it would be more effective for the story if there were a group out there stealing hero DNA.  The writers need to come up with some excuse for Dick to keep up his current direction after Mr. Minos is defeated. Saying that Minos was only a secondary threat, with the real danger to the hero community and the world coming from whoever made Paragon, would be a good way to do that. Perhaps a post-Minos Spyral would make tracking down Paragon's creators one of its top priorities, with Dick and Helena being the agents in charge. 
> 
> Also, Seeley and King have said that they have come up with a good reason for Midnighter to stay around in _Grayson_. Midnighter destroyed the original Paragon. He is obviously interested in tracking down the organs.  Having him and Dick join together to find Paragon's creators and foil their current plots would be very plausible.


Just don't tell Apollo.

----------


## Badou

> I agree with many of your criticisms of how the setup and transition to _Grayson_ were done.  Without doubt DC has bungled badly on several fronts.  But it seems a bit early to make such a definitive judgment.  So far we have had four issues (counting _Nightwing 30_) and one guest appearance.  Now, the _Nightwing_ issue had some very severe problems, and the _Futures End_ tie-in was unusual by its very nature.  But the guest shot in _Batman and Robin_ seemed to indicate a much-increased status for the character, even if it did also underline the corner the Batman Office is backed into at the moment.  I will even grant that, despite the clear talent and good will of the _Grayson_ creative team, it's hard to have any faith that the Batman Office will find a way out of the corner that isn't half-hearted and very disappointing.  But the potential of the character and the series stretches far beyond the current problems, and surely Seeley and King have earned the right to tell a season's worth of story, and see a season's worth of sales numbers, before being relegated definitively to the third tier.


I think him in Batman and Robin was just Tomasi explaining why Dick won't be involved in the arc to save Damian. Since obviously people would expect him to be involved in that arc. I don't think it was much more beyond that. 

I guess I should have explained when I said "third tier". Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and probably Robin are in that first tier. Then Green Arrow, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Shazam, Constantine and so on take up that second tier. Those are the characters that, for the most part, are the ones that immediately react whenever there is a major DCU threat. They carry most of the weight in the DCU. Dick's character falls into place behind those characters and he doesn't really do anything unless Batman does something first. So he is really limited and I can't put him in that second tier because of it. Plus that is how I think DC sees the character as well. It isn't about sales numbers. Since Nightwing sold better than many other important characters and he still struggled to find relevance in the New 52, and Grayson will probably sell about as well as Nightwing, but I just don't get the sense that Dick, or his mission in Grayson, are all that important in the DCU and I don't think Grayson will suddenly raise his profile any to the level of those second tier characters. 




> You make a good point that the _Titans_ show raises questions about the synergy between comics and TV we have heard discussed.  If the upcoming event turns out to be a _Zero Hour_ kind of crisis with small changes around the edges of the continuity, I guess they could do a fix then. Or they could just reverse course and retcon without an event.  I don't know what they would do, to be honest.


Yeah, but the problem is that while I like Dick's Titan relationships I don't want him to be forced back with the Titans. Like Nightwing it is a dead franchise with no room for advancement. So I do fear that if the Titan show gets off the ground then Dick will be put with the Titans again and he will be stuck with them for another 20 years where DC is unsure of what to do with his character. Where he is too old to be a proper Titan but they don't want to put him on a JL team despite that.

----------


## byrd156

> I think him in Batman and Robin was just Tomasi explaining why Dick won't be involved in the arc to save Damian. Since obviously people would expect him to be involved in that arc. I don't think it was much more beyond that. 
> 
> I guess I should have explained when I said "third tier". Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and probably Robin are in that first tier. Then Green Arrow, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Shazam, Constantine and so on take up that second tier. Those are the characters that, for the most part, are the ones that immediately react whenever there is a major DCU threat. They carry most of the weight in the DCU. Dick's character falls into place behind those characters and he doesn't really do anything unless Batman does something first. So he is really limited and I can't put him in that second tier because of it. Plus that is how I think DC sees the character as well. It isn't about sales numbers. Since Nightwing sold better than many other important characters and he still struggled to find relevance in the New 52, and Grayson will probably sell about as well as Nightwing, but I just don't get the sense that Dick, or his mission in Grayson, are all that important in the DCU and I don't think Grayson will suddenly raise his profile any to the level of those second tier characters. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but the problem is that while I like Dick's Titan relationships I don't want him to be forced back with the Titans. Like Nightwing it is a dead franchise with no room for advancement. So I do fear that if the Titan show gets off the ground then Dick will be put with the Titans again and he will be stuck with them for another 20 years where DC is unsure of what to do with his character. Where he is too old to be a proper Titan but they don't want to put him on a JL team despite that.


Nightwing is only a dead franchise in terms of the new 52 version. Dick being with the Titans can only advance him the same way him being a spy is advancing him. He has been alone with no connections except for a few Bat family members. So any exposure to other characters is good exposure. 

Dick is to old to be a member of the TT but not the Titans. The two Titans series are some of my favorite series, granted they couldn't really do a series like that unless they do a Zero Hour like Dzetoun was saying.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yeah, but the problem is that while I like Dick's Titan relationships I don't want him to be forced back with the Titans. Like Nightwing it is a dead franchise with no room for advancement. So I do fear that if the Titan show gets off the ground then Dick will be put with the Titans again and he will be stuck with them for another 20 years where DC is unsure of what to do with his character. Where he is too old to be a proper Titan but they don't want to put him on a JL team despite that.


Is there a way to make the Titans different than the Justice League? Like, categorically different, not just a Starting Lineup and a B-Team? Or is that just a dead end?

----------


## byrd156

> Is there a way to make the Titans different than the Justice League? Like, categorically different, not just a Starting Lineup and a B-Team? Or is that just a dead end?


The Titans always have been different. The Titans and JL are both teams that deal with big threats, but that's where the similarities end. The Titans are supposed to be the sidekicks forming a team to just hang out and fight crime when ever they wanted and it grew into a family. That's the main difference between the Titans and JL, the Titans are more caring about each other they are on a more personal level than the JL.

----------


## DurararaFTW

They'll have to be now. Any nu52 Titans will be a brandnew initiative by Nightwing and other adult superheros.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> It's possible, and certainly with the Multiverse becoming a big deal that would fit with the greater DCU.  But I think it would be more effective for the story if there were a group out there stealing hero DNA.  The writers need to come up with some excuse for Dick to keep up his current direction after Mr. Minos is defeated. Saying that Minos was only a secondary threat, with the real danger to the hero community and the world coming from whoever made Paragon, would be a good way to do that. Perhaps a post-Minos Spyral would make tracking down Paragon's creators one of its top priorities, with Dick and Helena being the agents in charge. 
> 
> Also, Seeley and King have said that they have come up with a good reason for Midnighter to stay around in _Grayson_. Midnighter destroyed the original Paragon. He is obviously interested in tracking down the organs.  Having him and Dick join together to find Paragon's creators and foil their current plots would be very plausible.


I really like Minos and I want him to be around for a while though.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think him in Batman and Robin was just Tomasi explaining why Dick won't be involved in the arc to save Damian. Since obviously people would expect him to be involved in that arc. I don't think it was much more beyond that.
> 
> I guess I should have explained when I said "third tier". Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and probably Robin are in that first tier. Then Green Arrow, Flash, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Shazam, Constantine and so on take up that second tier. Those are the characters that, for the most part, are the ones that immediately react whenever there is a major DCU threat. They carry most of the weight in the DCU. Dick's character falls into place behind those characters and he doesn't really do anything unless Batman does something first. So he is really limited and I can't put him in that second tier because of it. Plus that is how I think DC sees the character as well. It isn't about sales numbers. Since Nightwing sold better than many other important characters and he still struggled to find relevance in the New 52, and Grayson will probably sell about as well as Nightwing, but I just don't get the sense that Dick, or his mission in Grayson, are all that important  think Grayson will suddenly raise his profile any to the level of those second tier characters.


Oh, certainly you are right about Tomasi's primary purpose.  Still, they do seem to be pushing hard on the idea of Dick as Batman's best friend/confidante/heir, and on the idea of his status being different than that of the rest of the Bat Family.

Fair enough with your reservations about the possibilities of _Grayson_.  We will certainly see, and probably before all that long.  You had said you don't see the book as having a long shelf-life.  How long do you expect it to last, and what do you think will happen next? Does the appearance of Owlman in _Justice League_ change your estimation of Dick's chances of becoming involved with major events?

----------


## Conway

> Oh, certainly you are right about Tomasi's primary purpose.  Still, they do seem to be pushing hard on the idea of Dick as Batman's best friend/confidante/heir, and on the idea of his status being different than that of the rest of the Bat Family.
> 
> Fair enough with your reservations about the possibilities of _Grayson_.  We will certainly see, and probably before all that long.  You had said you don't see the book as having a long shelf-life.  How long do you expect it to last, and what do you think will happen next? Does the appearance of Owlman in _Justice League_ change your estimation of Dick's chances of becoming involved with major events?


I think they are playing it up now that they received so much criticism for how they treated Dick for the first few years of the New 52. Still, I'm not sure about the idea that they want Dick to be the "replacement bat". It has been pretty obvious that Tim has that role. 

Tim is the leader of JL Junior (Teen Titans), he's the detective that figured out Batman's identity (sort-of), he is the child prodigy that has gadgets and computers to help him, and if Eternal keeps going the way it's going he's going to be training Blue Bird (Nightwing Jr.).

I think Dick has the Roy roll, where he was only a little younger than the hero he learned from and idolized, but the shine has worn off, and now he is the person that can yell at him. He's the friend/conscious for the hero that can't admit he makes mistakes. He still lives in the shadow of his mentor, but is definitely his own man.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think they are playing it up now that they received so much criticism for how they treated Dick for the first few years of the New 52. Still, I'm not sure about the idea that they want Dick to be the "replacement bat". It has been pretty obvious that Tim has that role. 
> 
> Tim is the leader of JL Junior (Teen Titans), he's the detective that figured out Batman's identity (sort-of), he is the child prodigy that has gadgets and computers to help him, and if Eternal keeps going the way it's going he's going to be training Blue Bird (Nightwing Jr.).
> 
> I think Dick has the Roy roll, where he was only a little younger than the hero he learned from and idolized, but the shine has worn off, and now he is the person that can yell at him. He's the friend/conscious for the hero that can't admit he makes mistakes. He still lives in the shadow of his mentor, but is definitely his own man.


Dick doesn't have to become batman to replace batman he can do it as nightwing or whatever. Also you don't have be like bruce to be batman, the best batmen outside of bruce are dick and terry because they where different form bruce. Tim being like bruce should not be a reason why other wise it would be lex.

----------


## WonderNight

> They'll have to be now. Any nu52 Titans will be a brandnew initiative by Nightwing and other adult superheros.


I agree. Dick can not go BACK to starfire, roy, raven, beast boy and other teen titans other wise it will be dick back in the jr leagues! Dick need to be with a team that  can be looked at as being equal and an alternative to the juctice league. Dick needs to be with the adult heros that equal or close ot equal in teir to him. Heros that can help rise his proflie in the dcu and main stream media and not just him carring  the the jr leagues heros.

I would like for the team to be small but powerful so that the bond (teams with alot of members never bond JLa, JLi, JLu) and be powerful enough to be the justice league alternative. 

The team should top teir b-listers such dick with cybrog, zatanna, vixen, martian manhunter and power girl and maybe 1 part timer john stewart. This to me is a team of characters that can help rise  eachothers proflies without one of the characters being dead weight.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Yeah, there are plenty of adult heroes being underused who can be contemporaries to Dick.

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah, there are plenty of adult heroes being underused who can be contemporaries to Dick.


Yes but I hope that he could get some of his old friends back at the same time.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'd have no problem if they brought back Donna Troy and dedicated an entire issue to Dick and Donna fist-bumping.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd have no problem if they brought back Donna Troy and dedicated an entire issue to Dick and Donna fist-bumping.


That would be a great issue. I would buy a whole series like that.

----------


## Vinsanity

I would like if let's say Helena turns into a villainess or something. I'm just spitballing, don't hate me. Anyway and after her and Kathy get founded and Spyral doneskies. Waller gets Grayson a gig to work as a UN or US secret agent that also helps heroes. 

Then he comes back to life (yay) and gets slapped by Babs and kicked by Tim and they all hate Bruce. Then Dick as a spy just helps heroes and does covert work with Jesse Chambers or whatever character that hasn't been used (Not Donna because Donna is better for a different use) to be his partner and yeah does world missions and stuff. It would be cool like Ethan Hunt, James Bond cool...well not Roger Moore or Pierce Brosnan and he doesn't suit Craig or Dalton. Maybe not Sean Connary either maybe just Lazenby who was a physical one out of all the Bonds....maybe just stick with Ethan Hunt. 

Anyway yeah...just an idea.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I would like if let's say Helena turns into a villainess or something. I'm just spitballing, don't hate me. Anyway and after her and Kathy get founded and Spyral doneskies. Waller gets Grayson a gig to work as a UN or US secret agent that also helps heroes. 
> 
> Then he comes back to life (yay) and gets slapped by Babs and kicked by Tim and they all hate Bruce. Then Dick as a spy just helps heroes and does covert work with Jesse Chambers or whatever character that hasn't been used (Not Donna because Donna is better for a different use) to be his partner and yeah does world missions and stuff. It would be cool like Ethan Hunt, James Bond cool...well not Roger Moore or Pierce Brosnan and he doesn't suit Craig or Dalton. Maybe not Sean Connary either maybe just Lazenby who was a physical one out of all the Bonds....maybe just stick with Ethan Hunt. 
> 
> Anyway yeah...just an idea.


I don't like anything of that, I hate the idea of villian Helena (why), Dick working for the UN or US (seriusly Why), the bat drama, NO DONNA (C'mon)...

I have said it before and I will say it again, Kaldur'ahm agent of Spyral

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Maybe a spy-themed JL team would work.

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe a spy-themed JL team would work.


So like the Young Justice show?

----------


## byrd156

> I don't like anything of that, I hate the idea of villian Helena (why), Dick working for the UN or US (seriusly Why), the bat drama, NO DONNA (C'mon)...
> 
> I have said it before and I will say it again, Kaldur'ahm agent of Spyral


Personally the new Helena I see more as a villain but that's just me. No Donna is a bad bad idea. 

Kaldur being a spy would be a pretty good series.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Yeah, there are plenty of adult heroes being underused who can be contemporaries to Dick.


Who would you suggest in particular?

----------


## byrd156

> Who would you suggest in particular?


Who would you choose? 

Personally since I'm a huge Titans fan I would pick mostly from their roster.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Off the top of my head, Black Canary would fit within the spy theme. I don't know how often she'll be used in the new Batgirl.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Who would you choose? 
> 
> Personally since I'm a huge Titans fan I would pick mostly from their roster.


The thing is, I am not so sure that there really are lots of appropriate characters available.  Most who would be near Dick's age are either already on teams or aren't really a good match or are Bat characters who would not bring new connections.  To use Brian from Canada's typology, there are few available and appropriate Arrows (maybe Artemis) or Kryptonians (given the Superboy mess) or Shazams or Mages.  I guess there are always Lanterns of various colors around, but I don't know that any of them really fit.  It would work to introduce an Atlantean (pick your favorite) and Donna for the Amazons.  But if you rule out all Bats, who else is left?  Most everyone is either exceedingly obscure like Hartley Rathaway, the wrong age like Wally West, or tempermentally inappropriate like Grifter.  Ted Kord has been introduced, so there is that.  Booster Gold maybe? I suppose you could cheat and introduce Cassandra Cain as not-yet-a-Bat.

In fact, going with the theme of an "undercover" league I guess you would be looking at an Atlantean, Donna, maybe Artemis or Black Canary (if either one is really available), and Cassandra Cain if you cheated a bit. Oh, and we shouldn't leave out Helena B. Not bad, but kind of a slim roster.

----------


## byrd156

> The thing is, I am not so sure that there really are lots of appropriate characters available.  Most who would be near Dick's age are either already on teams or aren't really a good match or are Bat characters who would not bring new connections.  To use Brian from Canada's typology, there are few available and appropriate Arrows (maybe Artemis) or Kryptonians (given the Superboy mess) or Shazams or Mages.  I guess there are always Lanterns of various colors around, but I don't know that any of them really fit.  It would work to introduce an Atlantean (pick your favorite) and Donna for the Amazons.  But if you rule out all Bats, who else is left?  Most everyone is either exceedingly obscure like Hartley Rathaway, the wrong age like Wally West, or tempermentally inappropriate like Grifter.  Ted Kord has been introduced, so there is that.  Booster Gold maybe? I suppose you could cheat and introduce Cassandra Cain as not-yet-a-Bat.


You could try some other speedsters like Jesse Quick. If you wanted to go a little weird you could possibly some how fit the Atomic Knights into the story as possibly good or bad guys. 

The ideal team would be small, so I would go with Jesse, Donna, Dick, Kaldur'am, and Blue Beetle either Jaime Reyes or Ted Kord. Maybe have Booster Gold be an unofficial 6th member that comes around from time to time.

Maybe add some of the Atom's Titans members. They aren't super well known and it would be good for characters like Argent, Hotspot, and Damage who were the best parts of that series to get some new exposure.

----------


## SpiderWing20

A covert team like Young Justice would definitely work for Dick, the leadership role with the added stress of the job would make for some great stories for Dick. Can't say who I want on the team, but Kaldur is a must

----------


## dropkickjake

I like the roster of Dick, Kaldur, Donna, either Jesse Quick or time-travel-aged-Wally as a base four for a JL covert team. It further solidifies Dick's new role as words greatest spy. From there, IMHO, there's really only a need for one other person on the team. Five is the proper size for a team. Either Artemis or Miss Martian. Either could be done without them feeling like a sidekick. That is really what we need to keep away from. 

Really though. Seems like a no brainer. Young Justice followed this basic premise and was a smash hit with the comic book going demographic. DC is pushing Dick as a covert agent right now anyway. I say give Grayson a year, then make this happen.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I don't like anything of that, I hate the idea of villian Helena (why), Dick working for the UN or US (seriusly Why), the bat drama, NO DONNA (C'mon)...
> 
> I have said it before and I will say it again, Kaldur'ahm agent of Spyral


Helena wouldn't be a bad villain, I think it would be a good idea. Donna because I think she could be in good use for a Wonder Woman story or somewhere in space, you know bigger rather than a spy story and that's testiment to the character. Kaldur...nah I think my idea really supports that. Mine is just focused on Dick himself with a partner and in some issues interact with I dunno Aquaman and Mera and then like 7 issues later with Swamp Thing or something. 

That's basically it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Helena wouldn't be a bad villain, I think it would be a good idea. Donna because I think she could be in good use for a Wonder Woman story or somewhere in space, you know bigger rather than a spy story and that's testiment to the character. Kaldur...nah I think my idea really supports that. Mine is just focused on Dick himself with a partner and in some issues interact with I dunno Aquaman and Mera and then like 7 issues later with Swamp Thing or something. 
> 
> That's basically it.


Well, that approach would make for some good stories.  But I doubt it would hold interest among Dick Grayson people for very long.  Not unless it was supplemented by a team book or some other venue.  It just doesn't make for much interaction with the DCU or the Bat Family, and that is, from what evidence we have, the aspect of the character people value most - all the complaining about crossovers notwithstanding.  People claimed to dislike having Higgins' run disrupted by crossovers, but the truth is that those things in and of themselves were always very popular.  Just look at _Grayson_.  It's only been going since July and already people are starting to squirm and speculate about teams and crossovers and a return to the Bat Family.  It isn't completely consistent or even logical, but that's people for you!

----------


## Vinsanity

Yeah I know it wouldn't be possible but I would like to see that happen. I would just like to see him away from the Bat and stuff for a while but knowing that people still want to see interaction, I'm aware of that.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...4/2014-09.html

So Grayson Futures End sold 67K copies, making it DC's 11th best selling book last month.

----------


## Faruq

That's great! I thought the negative reviews might bite into sales a little bit

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I kinda thought it would do a little better, since every DC book got a big boost from the 3D covers. And Grayson apparently led all of the FE tie-ins in re-orders: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09/...ance-reorders/

----------


## OWL45

> I kinda thought it would do a little better, since every DC book got a big boost from the 3D covers. And Grayson apparently led all of the FE tie-ins in re-orders: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09/...ance-reorders/


The fact that it's not one of the big 3 and all it has is the name Grayson pushing the title I think it's doing outstanding. The book outsold every X title minus the Death of Wolverine.

----------


## byrd156

Nightwing: the Series episode 2 came out today.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Watched it earlier. The acting is errmmm...

----------


## byrd156

> Watched it earlier. The acting is errmmm...


Yeah but when its a fan film I don't really care that much. Though the part with the Joker was really cool.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

I thought the acting was pretty good for fanmade. They need to get more realistic blood and the fight scene in ep 1 was awkward, but those are minor complaints, I'm really enjoying it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I kinda thought it would do a little better, since every DC book got a big boost from the 3D covers. And Grayson apparently led all of the FE tie-ins in re-orders: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09/...ance-reorders/





> The fact that it's not one of the big 3 and all it has is the name Grayson pushing the title I think it's doing outstanding. The book outsold every X title minus the Death of Wolverine.


It's very difficult to know how to judge the book's performance. Undoubtedly many sales were due to a variant cover effect.  Comparing the September numbers to those from August, DC books experienced surges ranging from 11K to 35K.  _Grayson_ and _Teen Titans_ had relatively small surges, probably because they are new books and ordinary demand has not yet quite leveled out.  If the true variant cover sales differential for _Grayson_ is relatively low, say in the 15K range, then the reader sales of the book would be around 50K, about where you would expect given standard decline.  If the cover sales were on the middle to high side, it means the book is declining at an unusually high rate.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Nightwing: the Series episode 2 came out today.


Could NOT get over how douchy flashback Bruce was. Hair cut. Glasses. Nonchalaunce. It was insane. And Barbara being alive didn't feel like much of a surprise. Its great for fan made though, and that guy has Dicks character down really well.

----------


## dropkickjake

> You could try some other speedsters like Jesse Quick. If you wanted to go a little weird you could possibly some how fit the Atomic Knights into the story as possibly good or bad guys.


Umm. Didn't know much about Jesse Quick, so I just googled her. Jesse Chambers as Liberty Belle would 

 A- be a more unique take than speedster-number-x 
B- give an excuse to tone down her speed capabilities a bit and compensate with more strength, et c. (Mid level hero like spiderman or captain america)
C- thematically fit in quite nicely with an espionage book I think.

----------


## byrd156

> Umm. Didn't know much about Jesse Quick, so I just googled her. Jesse Chambers as Liberty Belle would 
> 
>  A- be a more unique take than speedster-number-x 
> B- give an excuse to tone down her speed capabilities a bit and compensate with more strength, et c. (Mid level hero like spiderman or captain america)
> C- thematically fit in quite nicely with an espionage book I think.


Personally I just like Jesse more and Liberty Belle should be on Earth-2 since she has more ties to the JSA. Jesse is really great in the Titans series and Robinson's JLA.

----------


## oasis1313

> Personally I just like Jesse more and Liberty Belle should be on Earth-2 since she has more ties to the JSA. Jesse is really great in the Titans series and Robinson's JLA.


The original Lobo would make a good team member.

----------


## byrd156

> The original Lobo would make a good team member.


Lobo? That just seems like a weird choice for a spy team.

----------


## M L A

> The original Lobo would make a good team member.


for what purpose

----------


## Dzetoun

> for what purpose


There doesn't seem to be one.  On the other hand, Lobo (in whatever variation) might make a good target for a spy team.

----------


## oasis1313

> Lobo? That just seems like a weird choice for a spy team.


Just for fun and to drive Dick batty.  It would be worse than back in the good ol' Titans days when he was always ragging on Kory to control herself and her starbolts.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Just for fun and to drive Dick batty.  It would be worse than back in the good ol' Titans days when he was always ragging on Kory to control herself and her starbolts.


But without the innuendo.  Unless, of course, you agree with Devin Grayson and a myriad of fanfic writers. :Big Grin:

----------


## Claude

I'm just going to say it, and then run for cover.... Dick Grayson moving from being in a solo title like "Grayson" to being in a Team Book with a bunch of other heroes would be bad for the character. This is his big chance to move away from being "The Worlds Most Fun Guest Star/Supporting Character" into something fresh and big - and putting him in a book with a bunch of other lucky-dip heroes will hurt him.


Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.

----------


## oasis1313

> But without the innuendo.  Unless, of course, you agree with Devin Grayson and a myriad of fanfic writers.


Uh uh, hadn't even thought of that.  Just thinking of who is over-the-top violence and guns galore, someone the opposite of Dick Grayson.  Although I confess I was one of those fans who was shocked at that infamous panel of Dick in bed with Kory all those years ago.  But then again, the Dick Grayson of that era didn't even drink--now he's been bar-tending.  I'm just hoping he can refrain from crack and speed, since he's losing virtues and accumulating vices.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I'm just going to say it, and then run for cover.... Dick Grayson moving from being in a solo title like "Grayson" to being in a Team Book with a bunch of other heroes would be bad for the character. This is his big chance to move away from being "The Worlds Most Fun Guest Star/Supporting Character" into something fresh and big - and putting him in a book with a bunch of other lucky-dip heroes will hurt him.
> 
> 
> Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.


Yeah, I definitely agree.  Any team book would have to be _in addition_ to his solo, not _instead_ of it.  You are right about it being hard to think of of folks, especially if you want to rule all current Bat characters out of bounds.  I guess that's why the idea of bringing back some pre-52 characters like Cassandra Cain or Kaldur keeps arising in these kinds of discussions.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I'm just going to say it, and then run for cover.... Dick Grayson moving from being in a solo title like "Grayson" to being in a Team Book with a bunch of other heroes would be bad for the character. This is his big chance to move away from being "The Worlds Most Fun Guest Star/Supporting Character" into something fresh and big - and putting him in a book with a bunch of other lucky-dip heroes will hurt him.
> 
> 
> Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.


I think the general mentality here is that he should have both his solo and a team-up book (in which he would lead).

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Yeah, I definitely agree.  Any team book would have to be _in addition_ to his solo, not _instead_ of it.  You are right about it being hard to think of of folks, especially if you want to rule all current Bat characters out of bounds.  I guess that's why the idea of bringing back some pre-52 characters like Cassandra Cain or Kaldur keeps arising in these kinds of discussions.


It's also possible that encounters with "The Fist of Cain" could lead to David Cain's reintroduction.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Uh uh, hadn't even thought of that.  Just thinking of who is over-the-top violence and guns galore, someone the opposite of Dick Grayson.  Although I confess I was one of those fans who was shocked at that infamous panel of Dick in bed with Kory all those years ago.  But then again, the Dick Grayson of that era didn't even drink--now he's been bar-tending.  I'm just hoping he can refrain from crack and speed, since he's losing virtues and accumulating vices.


I would just like to point out that he began bartending while under the pen of Dixon, during which I don't believe he was depicted sleeping with anyone. I only mention that because it is so rare for the character. Also, upon being hired, i believe he said something to the effect of "Don't drink myself," or something of the like.




> I'm just going to say it, and then run for cover.... Dick Grayson moving from being in a solo title like "Grayson" to being in a Team Book with a bunch of other heroes would be bad for the character. This is his big chance to move away from being "The Worlds Most Fun Guest Star/Supporting Character" into something fresh and big - and putting him in a book with a bunch of other lucky-dip heroes will hurt him.
> 
> 
> Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.


Yeah, I don't think anyone wants his solo to stop. I think everyone wants both. I do like the "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" prompt for a team book.

----------


## sanderling

> Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.


This theoretical book sounds amazing.  Maybe bring back one of the slightly obscure Global Guardians -- like Crimson Fox?

----------


## oasis1313

I would probably wait a year or so to make sure that "Grayson" is stable.  Only then would I consider a spin-off team book.  I'd like to see Donna, but ONLY if her new origin in New 52 is SIMPLE.  Something like Queen Hipolyta got lonely when Diana went off to Man's World so she made a SECOND little girl out of clay and the gods gave it life--sick of all the GODDESS stuff in the old 52; then when she gets older she wants to go to Mans World, too, as Wonder Woman's little sister.  But no GODDESS stuff, please.  I could see the addition of Dr Thirteen, Jason Blood and Etrigan, the Question, and Hawkgirl.

----------


## The Conductor

Personally I think Dick would do well in a similar role as Hank Pym had in "Avengers Academy". Let's put Dick in a mentor to a group of teenage superhumans who are in danger of falling into the path of villainy. It could act as a sister title to Teen Titans, maybe even a chance to revive the "Team Titans" brand.

----------


## Badou

> I kinda thought it would do a little better, since every DC book got a big boost from the 3D covers. And Grayson apparently led all of the FE tie-ins in re-orders: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/09/...ance-reorders/


The reason it didn't do better was because this is the 3rd issue of the series. So the book hasn't leveled out yet. Typically the sales numbers for the 3rd issue of a new series drop around 10-15% from the second issue. So the sales for the 2nd issue were 56,483 and if September was a normal month the 3rd issue would have probably been around 48,010 to 50,843. This seems likely as if you look at the book that placed just ahead of Grayson in September, Superman/Wonder Woman, it's sales in August were 50,550 which is the level that book is selling at and that falls in line with what the expected 3rd issue of Gayson would have been. 

So Grayson got around the same boost as DC's other mid ranged titles from the September gimmick when you  realize that Grayson's current level was 10-15% lower than it's August level.

----------


## Godlike13

Honestly, Dick needs to move on from the Titans. They ripped it from him, then retooled what they had leftover as Outlaws. Where he's like Voldemort for some reason. So ya, just have him move on like he is. Comic wise anything Titan right now is pretty much poop anyway.

----------


## byrd156

> Honestly, Dick needs to move on from the Titans. They ripped it from him, then retooled what they had leftover as Outlaws. Where he's like Voldemort for some reason. So ya, just have him move on like he is. Comic wise anything Titan right now is pretty much poop anyway.


He has already moved on because its been forced from him.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'm just going to say it, and then run for cover.... Dick Grayson moving from being in a solo title like "Grayson" to being in a Team Book with a bunch of other heroes would be bad for the character. This is his big chance to move away from being "The Worlds Most Fun Guest Star/Supporting Character" into something fresh and big - and putting him in a book with a bunch of other lucky-dip heroes will hurt him.
> 
> 
> Now, if Dick takes what he learns in Spyral to run his own Covert Team - either of the "Secret Ops" or "Keep This Ragtag Bunch Of Misfits Out Of Trouble" type - _as well_ as his Day Job in his solo? That could be a lot of fun. The only problem would be finding characters - and a niche - totally seperate from the current Titans and the JLU. Really only leaves you with Static and Blue Beetle. Maybe Booster Gold, if he hung around in one place long enough.


Nah, I kind of agree with you. I've been reading the Titans mainly for Jesse Quick and man it is pretty horrible for him. I like him being Grayson, just him for a while. It works for him and he doesn't have to rely on being the guy who has a lot of guest stars and is always on a team.

----------


## Badou

So about Earth-2 Dick.

*spoilers:*
Well after we started to learn more information I guess it was obvious that Dick was just going to be a normal person with no connections to Batman or other heroes. He's just some journalist that is from Chicago with Babs being the cop and they have a son. I'm a little disappointed as I was really hoping that this Dick was the original Robin on Earth-2 like how he was on the old Earth-2 so we could possibly see Dick get a chance to be a big hero given that Batman/Bruce is gone, but I get that it really isn't his story. He's just plays a small part in it. Thomas and Helena are the leads in that kind of role. 

I'm just waiting for any version of him to get the chance again to be in a BIG scale story where he actually carries a lot of weight as a hero, like how you'd expect a Batman/Bruce to, but this isn't that story. Probably going to be a long time before we get a story like that given where his current character stands, but oh well. It wasn't a bad story but that was one aspect I was hoping for something different from it.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## WonderNight

> Honestly, Dick needs to move on from the Titans. They ripped it from him, then retooled what they had leftover as Outlaws. Where he's like Voldemort for some reason. So ya, just have him move on like he is. Comic wise anything Titan right now is pretty much poop anyway.


Yeah dick needs to be on a team of top tier heros to help him get to that next level.

----------


## Dzetoun

> So about Earth-2 Dick.
> 
> Well after we started to learn more information I guess it was obvious that Dick was just going to be a normal person with no connections to Batman or other heroes. He's just some journalist that is from Chicago with Babs being the cop and they have a son. I'm a little disappointed as I was really hoping that this Dick was the original Robin on Earth-2 like how he was on the old Earth-2 so we could possibly see Dick get a chance to be a big hero given that Batman/Bruce is gone, but I get that it really isn't his story. He's just plays a small part in it. Thomas and Helena are the leads in that kind of role. 
> 
> I'm just waiting for any version of him to get the chance again to be in a BIG scale story where he actually carries a lot of weight as a hero, like how you'd expect a Batman/Bruce to, but this isn't that story. Probably going to be a long time before we get a story like that given where his current character stands, but oh well. It wasn't a bad story but that was one aspect I was hoping for something different from it.


Look, I understand where you are coming from.  I really do.  DC and the Batman Office talk constantly about how important the character is, but we've heard it all before.  We've also seen plenty of instances where, when it comes time to back up all that talk, suddenly commitment and enthusiasm vanish and they don't follow through.  It's quite likely they even mean what they say when they make all that happy talk.  But somehow or another when it comes time to provide actual real support, that is panel space and storylines and the involvement of major characters (especially major characters other than Bruce), they seem to always have other priorities.  And yeah, to continue on in this depressing vein, it's very easy to imagine coming to the edge of the Crisis next year and feeling nothing but disappointment because Earth-2 Grayson has died "heroically" sacrificing himself to save his family while the various plot points around Prime Earth Grayson (plot points that I agree the Bat Office shows no sign of having any interest in or commitment to) have either been shoved aside or resolved through half-hearted hand waving.

But, and here's a BIG but, as Seeley has said the answers should come out of the story, they shouldn't BE the story.  Yeah, it's hard to have any faith at all in the various editorial groups, whether it's Doyle's where _Grayson_ lives or Cunningham's where _Justice League_ lives or Berganza's where the _Earth 2_ stuff lives. Yeah, Earth 2 Grayson isn't, at present, a superhero.  But we haven't read his story yet.  He could end up being the most important person on the planet.  Just as we haven't seen the story of _Grayson_ yet.  That could prove very big indeed.  The plot points in question might actually be resolved very well.  Six months is not so very long to wait, after all.  If we get there and things have gone badly, then I guess it's time to drop the relevant books and move on to something else.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Yeah dick needs to be on a team of top tier heros to help him get to that next level.


I would say a team with the "Justice League" branding on it.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Look, I understand where you are coming from.  I really do.  DC and the Batman Office talk constantly about how important the character is, but we've heard it all before.  We've also seen plenty of instances where, when it comes time to back up all that talk, suddenly commitment and enthusiasm vanish and they don't follow through.  It's quite likely they even mean what they say when they make all that happy talk.  But somehow or another when it comes time to provide actual real support, that is panel space and storylines and the involvement of major characters (especially major characters other than Bruce), they seem to always have other priorities.  And yeah, to continue on in this depressing vein, it's very easy to imagine coming to the edge of the Crisis next year and feeling nothing but disappointment because Earth-2 Grayson has died "heroically" sacrificing himself to save his family while the various plot points around Prime Earth Grayson (plot points that I agree the Bat Office shows no sign of having any interest in or commitment to) have either been shoved aside or resolved through half-hearted hand waving.
> 
> But, and here's a BIG but, as Seeley has said the answers should come out of the story, they shouldn't BE the story.  Yeah, it's hard to have any faith at all in the various editorial groups, whether it's Doyle's where _Grayson_ lives or Cunningham's where _Justice League_ lives or Berganza's where the _Earth 2_ stuff lives. Yeah, Earth 2 Grayson isn't, at present, a superhero.  But we haven't read his story yet.  He could end up being the most important person on the planet.  Just as we haven't seen the story of _Grayson_ yet.  That could prove very big indeed.  The plot points in question might actually be resolved very well.  Six months is not so very long to wait, after all.  If we get there and things have gone badly, then I guess it's time to drop the relevant books and move on to something else.


I think Earth 2 Dick's son may end up being important.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think Earth 2 Dick's son may end up being important.



What would you imagine for him?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Just a gut feeling more than anything. I think he ends up on Prime Earth after his parents bite the dust.

----------


## oasis1313

> Just a gut feeling more than anything. I think he ends up on Prime Earth after his parents bite the dust.


Richard Grayson Jr?  A change to bring a child Dick Grayson back into the Bat-Verse?  Hmmmmm . . . . .

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

My crack theory (emphasis on crack) would be Dick Jr (or whatever his name is) ends up being the new Robin. There are dozens of reasons why it would not work, but it's just a fun theory that could potentially cause tons of awkwardness in the Bat family.

----------


## oasis1313

> My crack theory (emphasis on crack) would be Dick Jr (or whatever his name is) ends up being the new Robin. There are dozens of reasons why it would not work, but it's just a fun theory that could potentially cause tons of awkwardness in the Bat family.


Actually, I don't see why it CAN'T work.  I'd rather have Damian back, but think of all the Robin merchandising and trademarks over the past 70 years that have been associated with the Dick Grayson name.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Actually, I don't see why it CAN'T work.  I'd rather have Damian back, but think of all the Robin merchandising and trademarks over the past 70 years that have been associated with the Dick Grayson name.


Timing, for one thing.  Johnny is still on Earth 2 on December 3, while the new Robin appears on December 17.  Of course, there could be major time slippage between the books, as there is between _Batman_ and _Batman Eternal_.

----------


## Badou

> Look, I understand where you are coming from.  I really do.  DC and the Batman Office talk constantly about how important the character is, but we've heard it all before.  We've also seen plenty of instances where, when it comes time to back up all that talk, suddenly commitment and enthusiasm vanish and they don't follow through.  It's quite likely they even mean what they say when they make all that happy talk.  But somehow or another when it comes time to provide actual real support, that is panel space and storylines and the involvement of major characters (especially major characters other than Bruce), they seem to always have other priorities.  And yeah, to continue on in this depressing vein, it's very easy to imagine coming to the edge of the Crisis next year and feeling nothing but disappointment because Earth-2 Grayson has died "heroically" sacrificing himself to save his family while the various plot points around Prime Earth Grayson (plot points that I agree the Bat Office shows no sign of having any interest in or commitment to) have either been shoved aside or resolved through half-hearted hand waving.
> 
> But, and here's a BIG but, as Seeley has said the answers should come out of the story, they shouldn't BE the story.  Yeah, it's hard to have any faith at all in the various editorial groups, whether it's Doyle's where _Grayson_ lives or Cunningham's where _Justice League_ lives or Berganza's where the _Earth 2_ stuff lives. Yeah, Earth 2 Grayson isn't, at present, a superhero.  But we haven't read his story yet.  He could end up being the most important person on the planet.  Just as we haven't seen the story of _Grayson_ yet.  That could prove very big indeed.  The plot points in question might actually be resolved very well.  Six months is not so very long to wait, after all.  If we get there and things have gone badly, then I guess it's time to drop the relevant books and move on to something else.


Look, I didn't say that I hated the story. I was just hoping to see Dick in a roll we haven't seen since he was Batman. That's what's I've been waiting all reboot for really. I was hoping he would have been the original Robin and gone back to being a hero in a big way like he did on the old Earth-2. Where he is standing side by side with that Earth's greatest heroes, but I just don't see this Earth-2 Dick being more than someone on the ground level helping that way. Though yeah, I do think he still dies before April. His son will probably end up being the new Earth-2 Robin or something. 

As for Prime Earth Grayson I don't see the character being that important outside his own book unless Synder or Johns decide that Sypral is suddenly important, but I'm sick of talking about my complaints with the Grayson series. There are things I like with the book and things I dislike, but I don't see the book pushing the character any more than Nightwing did at the end of the day.

----------


## oasis1313

> Look, I didn't say that I hated the story. I was just hoping to see Dick in a roll we haven't seen since he was Batman. That's what's I've been waiting all reboot for really. I was hoping he would have been the original Robin and gone back to being a hero in a big way like he did on the old Earth-2. Where he is standing side by side with that Earth's greatest heroes, but I just don't see this Earth-2 Dick being more than someone on the ground level helping that way. Though yeah, I do think he still dies before April. His son will probably end up being the new Earth-2 Robin or something. 
> 
> As for Prime Earth Grayson I don't see the character being that important outside his own book unless Synder or Johns decide that Sypral is suddenly important, but I'm sick of talking about my complaints with the Grayson series. There are things I like with the book and things I dislike, but I don't see the book pushing the character any more than Nightwing did at the end of the day.


I second your thoughts here.  He needs to be a full-bore member of, and leader of, the Justice League.  Batman should go back to the Outsiders.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah dick needs to be on a team of top tier heros to help him get to that next level.


Well, im not really one of those people who thinks he needs to be on the JL. Personally i think he'd get buried there, though i do kind of like that idea where he's the JL's scout. But if he was to be on a team again, which honestly im not sure if i even want him on a team right now. Im really enjoying Grayson, and yes while they could do both, i don't know. Anyway, if he was be on a team again id prefer it to be a team with other adult heroes who aren't Titans. Heroes like Zatanna and Booster Gold. Just well, not Titans. Something different. I guess im just kind of over Titans right now. When it comes to the comics at least. 




> My crack theory (emphasis on crack) would be Dick Jr (or whatever his name is) ends up being the new Robin. There are dozens of reasons why it would not work, but it's just a fun theory that could potentially cause tons of awkwardness in the Bat family.


I could see him becoming Earth 2 Batman's Robin.

----------


## Claude

> What would you imagine for him?


"_Shazam!_"


I'm not saying they'll go that way, but as Kid Heroes go..... Plus, he was wearing that traditional Billy Batson "red with yellow" jumper.

But then, I think people are possibly being a bit quick to write off Earth 2 Dick here - yes he hasn't done much yet, but he's central in all their "progressing threads of the story" cuts in that first issue. It's a little like worrying that Alan and Jay wont have much to do when the Earth 2 title first launched, cause all Alan had done was ride a train and all Jay did was break up with his girlfriend....

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

I liked how he said he would do whatever it takes to protect his family on Earth 2. I have a feeling he's going to be a fun character to watch and is going to accomplish some insane feats as a normal guy during this crazy event.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I liked how he said he would do whatever it takes to protect his family on Earth 2.


I didn't. That's pretty much a death sentence right there.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> I didn't. That's pretty much a death sentence right there.


I don't expect him to live lol. I like it because no matter the universe, that's what he would say in that situation. As for the team book everyone was talking about. I'm hoping Grayson does well enough to where Spyral is kept around as his thing, so he could lead a group of top tier Spyral agents out on missions.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't expect him to live lol. I like it because no matter the universe, that's what he would say in that situation. As for the team book everyone was talking about. I'm hoping Grayson does well enough to where Spyral is kept around as his thing, so he could lead a group of top tier Spyral agents out on missions.


Ya, i could dig that.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> Ya, i could dig that.


Me too. It would be a secret ops Justice League in a way. Taking on the assignments that everyone in the hero community don't need to know about.

----------


## oasis1313

> I didn't. That's pretty much a death sentence right there.


There is NO WAY Earth 2 Dick Grayson will be allowed to survive the next Crisis.  NO WAY.  Didio would likely say something like, "Okay, it's time to start thinking about our next big cross-over event.  I don't care what it's about--just make sure there's a Dick Grayson getting killed for real this time."

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I liked how he said he would do whatever it takes to protect his family on Earth 2. I have a feeling he's going to be a fun character to watch and is going to accomplish some insane feats as a normal guy during this crazy event.


I can't wait to see that myself. I think he will be the most fun character to watch here because he is just a "normal" guy trying to protect his family during this crisis. 




> I don't expect him to live lol. I like it because no matter the universe, that's what he would say in that situation. As for the team book everyone was talking about. I'm hoping Grayson does well enough to where Spyral is kept around as his thing, so he could lead a group of top tier Spyral agents out on missions.


I'd like it if they didn't kill him off on Earth 2 myself but then again...

I would like to see him become a leader within Spyral if _Grayson_ sticks around long enough. I'd like to see him lead a bunch of Spyral agents on various missions.

----------


## Claude

> There is NO WAY Earth 2 Dick Grayson will be allowed to survive the next Crisis.  NO WAY.  Didio would likely say something like, "Okay, it's time to start thinking about our next big cross-over event.  I don't care what it's about--just make sure there's a Dick Grayson getting killed for real this time."


Is that as thrilling to type out _every time_ as it is to read?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Seems a bit random that Earth 2 Dick is a journalist. Wonder if that will come into play later down the line.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> Seems a bit random that Earth 2 Dick is a journalist. Wonder if that will come into play later down the line.


Like actually surviving and documenting the war? Lol that would be pretty cool. And Claude I agree. I groan every time I see someone talking about Didio wanting to kill Dick Grayson at this point.

----------


## oasis1313

> Is that as thrilling to type out _every time_ as it is to read?


Why, yes it IS!!!!!!!!!!!  I love doing it!!!!!!  Seriously, my intent here is to DEFY DC to do something unexpected and unpredictable.  I apologize if I forget I've done it before, but I'm an old geezer and probably have Alzheimers by now.  However, DC does troll this forum and needs to understand that it isn't fooling or shocking anybody.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Like actually surviving and documenting the war? Lol that would be pretty cool.


Makes sense. Probably more useful down the line than being a former circus acrobat.

----------


## M L A

> Seems a bit random that Earth 2 Dick is a journalist. Wonder if that will come into play later down the line.


I know. I was hoping he'd be a cop or something.

I still miss Officer Grayson...

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> Makes sense. Probably more useful down the line than being a former circus acrobat.


It seems like Dick, Babs, and little Johnny are going to play an important role. They made sure to highlight them in the beginning and middle of the issue.

----------


## Godlike13

Hey, its better than being a busboy.

----------


## M L A

> It seems like Dick, Babs, and little Johnny are going to play an important role. They made sure to highlight them in the beginning and middle of the issue.


Yeah the writers said they're one of the major plot lines.

iirc something about how everything is going to affect civilians or something.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They're going to represent the civilian perspective on the war.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> They're going to represent the civilian perspective on the war.


I think he'll get to do more than that though. Maybe we'll learn that there's an Oa in the Earth 2 universe....wishful thinking. Lol

----------


## Dzetoun

> Like actually surviving and documenting the war? Lol that would be pretty cool. And Claude I agree. I groan every time I see someone talking about Didio wanting to kill Dick Grayson at this point.


I agree as well.  The nonsense about Didio has gotten tiresome beyond belief.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Wonder if Earth-2 Dick has any sort of connection to that world's Bruce.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Wonder if Earth-2 Dick has any sort of connection to that world's Bruce.


It can't be ruled out, but probably not.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

The Earth-2 Graysons live in Chicago, so it's unlikely. I guess Jim Gordon never transferred to Gotham in that world.

----------


## oasis1313

I like the idea of Dick  getting married and having kids.  He's the only Bay-guy who seems like family man material.

----------


## byrd156

> I like the idea of Dick  getting married and having kids.  He's the only Bay-guy who seems like family man material.


I always thought that Tim was more family man material than Dick.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I always thought that Tim was more family man material than Dick.


It depends enormously which era you look at.  In the early 2000s, when Tim still had his classic personality traits and Devin Grayson was writing Dick, I would have agreed with you.  After Infinite Crisis I think things shifted rapidly with the relationship between Dick and Damian and Tim's decent into coldness and, sometimes, viciousness.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick would be a good family man if his family was something like the Secret Saturdays. But he'd probably have a lot of trouble sitting still for any thing ordinary.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'd imagine he'd end up like Phil in Modern Family.

----------


## The World

Did anybody see the stubble Dick was rocking in Earth 2? It looked pretty good I thought and should make a transition to Earth Prime Dick.

----------


## byrd156

Man I love rereading Chuck Dixon's Nightwing work.

----------


## brucekent12

> Man I love rereading Chuck Dixon's Nightwing work.


It is good, classic material, I agree! With DC beginning its move to Burbank at the end of March, what are the chances f the Bat family finding out Dick is alive? Any guesses?

----------


## Godlike13

> It is good, classic material, I agree! With DC beginning its move to Burbank at the end of March, what are the chances f the Bat family finding out Dick is alive? Any guesses?


Probably during one of the next bat events.

----------


## byrd156

> Probably during one of the next bat events.


Will there be any actual impact when they find out?

----------


## byrd156

> It is good, classic material, I agree! With DC beginning its move to Burbank at the end of March, what are the chances f the Bat family finding out Dick is alive? Any guesses?


Its fantastic stuff, I love it when Dick is written with respect.

----------


## M L A

> Will there be any actual impact when they find out?


At the NYCC batpanel they said it'll be a "big moment".
Of course one of writers also said they were hurt terribly by his "death" when we've seen it mentioned like twice, and a long time ago at that, soooo...

tbh they can make it as grandiose as they like but it'll fall pretty flat if it seems more like "WOW DICK WE MISSED YOU SO MUCH. SO MUCH THAT WE NEVER MENTIONED YOU EVER"

----------


## Godlike13

> At the NYCC batpanel they said it'll be a "big moment".
> Of course one of writers also said they were hurt terribly by his "death" when we've seen it mentioned like twice, and a long time ago at that, soooo...
> 
> tbh they can make it as grandiose as they like but it'll fall pretty flat if it seems more like "WOW DICK WE MISSED YOU SO MUCH. SO MUCH THAT WE NEVER MENTIONED YOU EVER"


Just to further on that, here is the quote. 

_"Cunningham opened up the floor for a short Q&A. A fan asked if Dick Grayson would be wrapped back into the larger Batman family anytime soon. Doyle urged him to keep reading. Tynion said that Dick's seeming "death" has hurt the family tremendously, and when they do come back together, it'll be a big moment."_

http://www.newsarama.com/22381-nycc-...am-rising.html

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Honestly, it sounds like they never expected the "Dick is a spy" card, bit at the same time, the writers have that card hidden up their sleeve, and are ready to use it when the situation calls for it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Honestly, it sounds like they never expected the "Dick is a spy" card, bit at the same time, the writers have that card hidden up their sleeve, and are ready to use it when the situation calls for it.


I'm sorry, I don't understand that at all.  If the writers never expected the spy card how can they have it up their sleeves?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Just to further on that, here is the quote. 
> 
> _"Cunningham opened up the floor for a short Q&A. A fan asked if Dick Grayson would be wrapped back into the larger Batman family anytime soon. Doyle urged him to keep reading. Tynion said that Dick's seeming "death" has hurt the family tremendously, and when they do come back together, it'll be a big moment."_
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22381-nycc-...am-rising.html


Well, since Tynion was the one who answered I guess we could infer this is a _Batman Eternal_ plot thread.  But we have seen no sign of it so far.  Then again, as the indications are that _Eternal_ is going to become a more-or-less permanent part of the BatVerse, I suppose they have time.

----------


## M L A

> Honestly, it sounds like they never expected the "Dick is a spy" card, bit at the same time, the writers have that card hidden up their sleeve, and are ready to use it when the situation calls for it.


Apparently they approached Seeley with the idea all the way back in September.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I'm sorry, I don't understand that at all.  If the writers never expected the spy card how can they have it up their sleeves?


I think we had this discussion before. Mainly that the writers probably didn't plan on having Dick as a spy originally. But now someone has a plan to eventually reveal him to the Bat family.

I'm not sure it would happen in Batman Eternal, though, given that Dick still has to tiptoe around them in Robin Rises.

----------


## byrd156

So is Dick still going to stay in the spy game when everyone finds out he is still alive?

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Don't see why not, I'm guessing he can be alive to his family, but not the rest of the word. 

Personally I'd like to see Damian come back and suspect the truth first!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Don't see why not, I'm guessing he can be alive to his family, but not the rest of the word. 
> 
> Personally I'd like to see Damian come back and suspect the truth first!


"Grayson's not dead, what are you talking about? I didn't see him at all in the afterlife."

----------


## RichSummers

I feel like if Damian returned prior to Dick being revealed as alive, the second he finds out Dick is dead he'll drop what he's doing.  "Absolutely not.  Grayson is not dead.  I'll prove it" And we get some Damian globe trotting adventures.  Oh god, imagine a Dick and Damian ongoing spy series....

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> I feel like if Damian returned prior to Dick being revealed as alive, the second he finds out Dick is dead he'll drop what he's doing.  "Absolutely not.  Grayson is not dead.  I'll prove it" And we get some Damian globe trotting adventures.  Oh god, imagine a Dick and Damian ongoing spy series....


I would LOVE to see that. It would be awesome. Want.

I can definitely see Damian dropping everything and pretty quickly - he's not stupid, he's going to notice Dick's absence pretty much immediately. (assuming an intact mental state.) Plus he'd also be likely to pick up on Bruce's lack of grief. (Especially considering what Bruce did for him!)

----------


## Dzetoun

> I'm not sure it would happen in Batman Eternal, though, given that Dick still has to tiptoe around them in Robin Rises.


We have no absolute evidence that _Robin Rises_ takes place completely after _Eternal_, although it would be logical if it did.  In any case, all indications are that _Eternal_ will return for a Volume II after the move to California, or else that some successor weekly will take its place, probably with the same creative group.  I would hope they would resolve this before then, but if they don't, they will have plenty of time after the move.

----------


## oasis1313

> I would LOVE to see that. It would be awesome. Want.
> 
> I can definitely see Damian dropping everything and pretty quickly - he's not stupid, he's going to notice Dick's absence pretty much immediately. (assuming an intact mental state.) Plus he'd also be likely to pick up on Bruce's lack of grief. (Especially considering what Bruce did for him!)


It would be nice if at least one member of the Bat Family showed some grief at Dick's "passing."  But back to your idea of a Dick/Damian spy team, I really like it.  NOBODY expects a young "dad" walking around with a "child" to be a spy, because they wouldn't reckon on a kid with Damian's abilities.  But, hey, they could go globetrotting and be "dead" together; Dick is a far better father/big brother figure than Bruce himself.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I feel like if Damian returned prior to Dick being revealed as alive, the second he finds out Dick is dead he'll drop what he's doing.  "Absolutely not.  Grayson is not dead.  I'll prove it" And we get some Damian globe trotting adventures.  Oh god, imagine a Dick and Damian ongoing spy series....


Sounds pretty much exactly like Red Robin.

----------


## oasis1313

> Sounds pretty much exactly like Red Robin.


No, it's just the opposite.  Red Robin went looking for Batman during his "time trip".  He hasn't even noticed that Dick is "dead".

----------


## M L A

Wow I can't read

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I feel like if Damian returned prior to Dick being revealed as alive, the second he finds out Dick is dead he'll drop what he's doing.  "Absolutely not.  Grayson is not dead.  I'll prove it" And we get some Damian globe trotting adventures.  Oh god, imagine a Dick and Damian ongoing spy series....


I feel like that would be a very short conversation.

Damian: "Where is Grayson!?"
Bruce: "He's dead."
Damian: "I don't believe it. I will travel throughout the world to find him, and there's nothing you can do to stop me!"
Bruce: "Okay fine. He's on speed dial 3."

----------


## Dzetoun

> I feel like that would be a very short conversation.
> 
> Damian: "Where is Grayson!?"
> Bruce: "He's dead."
> Damian: "I don't believe it. I will travel throughout the world to find him, and there's nothing you can do to stop me!"
> Bruce: "Okay fine. He's on speed dial 3."


Chuckle.  Yet somehow it never works out to be so simple, does it?  Otherwise during the Leviathan Affair Bruce would have speed-dialed Clark on 1 and Diana on 2 and been done with the whole thing in time for brunch.  Or during _Forever Evil_ the Olympian gods would have noticed Diana was missing and the whole thing would have been over in ten minutes. Or in UTRH Bruce would have told Jason, "Tell you what, I won't kill him but let's blind him and break his spine." Or, for that matter, when Bruce learned of Spyral's plan he, Barry, and Diana could have met up in England (Diana was in London anyway, as I recall), visited St. Hadrian's, and what with super speed, the lasso of truth, and general Bat Godery had the entire operation exposed and dismantled in time to take in the evening performance at the new Globe. :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm afraid there is very little precedent for the common-sense scenario you advocate.

----------


## oasis1313

> Chuckle.  Yet somehow it never works out to be so simple, does it?  Otherwise during the Leviathan Affair Bruce would have speed-dialed Clark on 1 and Diana on 2 and been done with the whole thing in time for brunch.  Or during _Forever Evil_ the Olympian gods would have noticed Diana was missing and the whole thing would have been over in ten minutes. Or in UTRH Bruce would have told Jason, "Tell you what, I won't kill him but let's blind him and break his spine." Or, for that matter, when Bruce learned of Spyral's plan he, Barry, and Diana could have met up in England (Diana was in London anyway, as I recall), visited St. Hadrian's, and what with super speed, the lasso of truth, and general Bat Godery had the entire operation exposed and dismantled in time to take in the evening performance at the new Globe.
> 
> I'm afraid there is very little precedent for the common-sense scenario you advocate.


You are soooooooooooooo right.

----------


## WonderNight

> You are soooooooooooooo right.


Diana lives in london right? Spyral vs amazons confirmed!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Diana lives in london right? Spyral vs amazons confirmed!


Well, she is next on Spyral's hit list.

----------


## byrd156

Forgot to say that Nightwing the series episode 3 came out yesterday.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> Forgot to say that Nightwing the series episode 3 came out yesterday.


I thought it was by far the best ep yet.  :Smile:

----------


## byrd156

> I thought it was by far the best ep yet.


I love the part where the henchman kicks Deathstroke in the back and he didn't even notice.

----------


## Dzetoun

Here's an interview with Tim Seeley from NYCC.  It's very noisy in the background, but audio is still okay:

http://www.comicvine.com/videos/nycc...ter/2300-2760/

Hmmm. "It all comes together, then blows up."

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Here's an interview with Tim Seeley from NYCC.  It's very noisy in the background, but audio is still okay:
> 
> http://www.comicvine.com/videos/nycc...ter/2300-2760/
> 
> Hmmm. "It all comes together, then blows up."


He's probably talking about Tom King's next Dick joke.

----------


## Dzetoun

> He's probably talking about Tom King's next Dick joke.


 :Big Grin: 

10 Chrctrs

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, Dick finally made an impact in Eternal. Kind of.

----------


## Rakiduam

Funny enough when Grayson was announced I was really worried that Seeley was just to the first kick and then it was going to keep going with a very inexperienced gun lover writer, but after Tom King issues and what I have seen of Seeley in Batman: Eternal and this whole Jason/Babs mess I have no problem with Seeley leaving.

Sure King doesn't has the pull Seeley with the DC but I don't think pull is making any impact in the book.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Eh, I wouldn't put all the blame on Seeley. I think it's just a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Huh? Jason/Babs, really?

----------


## Rakiduam

> Eh, I wouldn't put all the blame on Seeley. I think it's just a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.


I don't know,the issues of Batman: Eternal I have seen are pretty terrible, and Seeley is the one working the Batgirl/Jason Todd arc. Personally I prefer him to be far away from Grayson before he start thinking that work the love triangle angle is a good idea. The threat of the melodrama with Starfire and Roy lingering in the horizon is bad enough.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Huh? Jason/Babs, really?


No, not really.  It's a subplot in _Eternal_.  Jason confesses he's always been attracted to Babs, but remembers the first time he met her she dismissed him with a comment about how he could never be Dick Grayson.  Babs is very appreciative of the kindness Jason shows her (which is genuine and impressive) and after a few issues indicates the possibility that if Jason stays around in Gotham to help the Bat Family something more might happen between them.  At that point Jason announces he is leaving.  When Barbara asks why, he says it's because she's right -- he can never be Dick Grayson.

He doesn't explain what he means by that, whether 1) he thinks she's still in love with a dead man, 2) he can never have the same relationship with Bruce and the Bat Family that Dick did, 3) he can't be dedicated to Gotham like Dick was (at least part of the time), or 4) some or all of the above.  However, he leaves.  End of potential romance.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Ak, ok, thanks. Haven't been reading 'Eternal'. Seems like a slightly odd comment though, as there's never been anything significant between Dick and Babs in the N52! (Unfortunately, in my opinion!)

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> End of potential romance.


I really hope so. The last thing we need is a love triangle between two Robins and a Batgirl. Especially since all of their respective books are veering off in separate directions.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Ak, ok, thanks. Haven't been reading 'Eternal'. Seems like a slightly odd comment though, as there's never been anything significant between Dick and Babs in the N52! (Unfortunately, in my opinion!)


I think this whole thing with Jason killed any possibility for Dick and Barbara ever be anything anymore. The fact that she conciderated it, makes any feeling she had for Dick seem pretty shallow. 

And you know she is going to act very righteous once she knows he is alive and be very angry for a while, I don't know why, is not like she misses him.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Yeah, I've pretty much given up on anything happening between them in this DCU at least. She missed him briefly in Batgirl 30 but seems to have got over it pretty quick, like all the rest. Though I bet, we'll know when the reveal is coming as we'll suddenly start seeing mentions of him again.

I would love to skip the whole righteous and angry thing, but it seems inevitable.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I doubt it. It sounds more like she was considering it because she had no one else to open up to at the time, with Dick "dead" and her father in prison. Obviously they won't get together any time soon, as both of them need to develop their own separate books. By the time that they do get together (which will be well into the future), the whole Jason/Babs thing will be long forgotten.

----------


## Godlike13

> Funny enough when Grayson was announced I was really worried that Seeley was just to the first kick and then it was going to keep going with a very inexperienced gun lover writer, but after Tom King issues and what I have seen of Seeley in Batman: Eternal and this whole Jason/Babs mess I have no problem with Seeley leaving.
> 
> Sure King doesn't has the pull Seeley with the DC but I don't think pull is making any impact in the book.


Despite Eternal, I don't want Seeley to leave Grayson. I like the range it is giving the book, having both him and King as writers on it. 




> I think this whole thing with Jason killed any possibility for Dick and Barbara ever be anything anymore. The fact that she conciderated it, makes any feeling she had for Dick seem pretty shallow. 
> 
> And you know she is going to act very righteous once she knows he is alive and be very angry for a while, I don't know why, is not like she misses him.


I wouldn't go that far. Dick and Barbara will probably still be the same. Though after a time of her being pissed at him for pretending to be dead.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think this whole thing with Jason killed any possibility for Dick and Barbara ever be anything anymore. The fact that she conciderated it, makes any feeling she had for Dick seem pretty shallow. 
> 
> And you know she is going to act very righteous once she knows he is alive and be very angry for a while, I don't know why, is not like she misses him.


In fairness, it isn't like Dick is withdrawn into a gloomy celibacy.  Agent 8, you know.  And, although the specifics of the _Grayson Futures End_ scenario will never happen, if it gives us any clue as to themes and character development it ain't like he and Helena are destined for handshakes, either.

And Dick doesn't even have the excuse of thinking Babs is dead.




> Yeah, I've pretty much given up on anything happening between them in this DCU at least. She missed him briefly in Batgirl 30 but seems to have got over it pretty quick, like all the rest. Though I bet, we'll know when the reveal is coming as we'll suddenly start seeing mentions of him again.
> 
> I would love to skip the whole righteous and angry thing, but it seems inevitable.


I don't think you will find very many people willing to give the DC editors a passing grade on how they have handled this situation.  Phrases like "way to drop the ball, fellas" and "you have to be kidding me" seem very prominent on Tumbler, Twitter, and internet boards.  Like you, I kind of dread the righteous wrath, but it does seem inevitable.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

If anything, her being angry at him will probably eventually end up pushing them together after reconciliation. Besides, DC knows what their fan favorite couples are. They'll be back together if sales for either of them hit a lull.

And Eternal has been very up and down. I think it's starting to pick back up, albeit slowly.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Funny enough when Grayson was announced I was really worried that Seeley was just to the first kick and then it was going to keep going with a very inexperienced gun lover writer, but after Tom King issues and what I have seen of Seeley in Batman: Eternal and this whole Jason/Babs mess I have no problem with Seeley leaving.
> 
> Sure King doesn't has the pull Seeley with the DC but I don't think pull is making any impact in the book.





> Despite Eternal, I don't want Seeley to leave Grayson. I like the range it is giving the book, having both him and King as writers on it.


Well, I for one rather like the way Seeley wrote Jason in Eternal.  As for Babs, I guess I can see some objections but  she has never been a favorite of mine with any writer.

In any case, this was all a rather small subplot that ended up not really changing any major relationships at all.  In addition, it was a small subplot that had been planned out and probably largely scripted six months ago, before the new directions for _Grayson_ and _Batgirl_ had fully come together.  

So for heaven's sake, let's give the man a break.  He could certainly use one, what with the equivalent of four ongoings and a fifth one about to start.

----------


## Rakiduam

> In fairness, it isn't like Dick is withdrawn into a gloomy celibacy.  Agent 8, you know.  And, although the specifics of the _Grayson Futures End_ scenario will never happen, if it gives us any clue as to themes and character development it ain't like he and Helena are destined for handshakes, either.
> 
> And Dick doesn't even have the excuse of thinking Babs is dead.


Barbara doesn't know agen 8, she isn't Agent 8 adoptive something and she isn't going to have to deal with her ever. Dick and Babs were seen other people before but it was never famili.Babs can do whatever she wants if she wants Jason then it's over with Dick 




> If anything, her being angry at him will probably eventually end up pushing them together after reconciliation. Besides, DC knows what their fan favorite couples are. They'll be back together if sales for either of them hit a lull.
> 
> And Eternal has been very up and down. I think it's starting to pick back up, albeit slowly.


Dick and Barbara are not a a fan favorite, some like them, some hate them but most people is over them.

----------


## Badou

> Huh? Jason/Babs, really?


Babs pretty much offers herself to Jason in an attempt to get him to stay in Gotham, but he turns her down. It was one of the poorer sub-plots of Eternal. Hopefully it is over with now, but I don't know. Still no mention of Dick's "death" in any meaningful capacity though. Seeley writing it does concern me a little.

----------


## M L A

> If anything, her being angry at him will probably eventually end up pushing them together after reconciliation. Besides, DC knows what their fan favorite couples are. They'll be back together if sales for either of them hit a lull.
> 
> And Eternal has been very up and down. I think it's starting to pick back up, albeit slowly.


Yeah they're going to get back together eventually. It's probably one of those pairings that won't go away even though they weren't together too long in actual canon. They're both main bat characters.

Wouldn't be too surprised if we get Dickbabs drama when she finds out he's not dead. Also wouldn't be too surprised if Dick being with someone else or Babs being with someone else is their primary concern when they meet again.

Really tho
I "DIED" and you decided to DATE SOMEONE ELSE??
You "DIED" and decided to DATE ONE OF THEM??

----------


## Badou

Well given how much they wrote out the Dick and Starfire romance in the reboot, she loves Jason more than she ever did Dick now apparently, maybe they will lessen the Dick and Babs romance. I mean it seems like Seeley and King want to push the New 52 Helena B. as a love interest more so maybe that could have been a reason for him testing the waters with Babs and Jason to free up Dick for his version of Helena.

----------


## WonderNight

[QUOTE=M L A;608117]Yeah they're going to get back together eventually. It's probably one of those pairings that won't go away even though they weren't together too long in actual canon. They're both main bat characters.

That is one of the reason i againt dick/babs. If dick is to become more than just a bat-character and have his own world/place in the dcu he can not have his life revolve around bat-characters.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Babs pretty much offers herself to Jason in an attempt to get him to stay in Gotham, but he turns her down. It was one of the poorer sub-plots of Eternal. Hopefully it is over with now, but I don't know. Still no mention of Dick's "death" in any meaningful capacity though. Seeley writing it does concern me a little.


Well, maybe they would say that all the grief for Dick is subtext coloring everybody's actions and attitudes.  If so, I'd have to call it an epic fail in the storytelling department.  I don't think most of us are feeling that at all.

I suspect the Jason/Babs stuff is pretty much over.  There really just doesn't seem to be anywhere to go with it.




> I mean it seems like Seeley and King want to push the New 52 Helena B. as a love interest more so maybe that could have been a reason for him testing the waters with Babs and Jason to free up Dick for his version of Helena.


Yes, they do have a definite interest in a possible Dick/Helena romance.  I think if one can take nothing else away from the _Grayson Futures End_ tie-in one can take that.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'm not sure, actually. I feel like the FE issue has already shown everything that could result from a Dick/Helena romance.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Originally Posted by M L A
> 
> 
> Yeah they're going to get back together eventually. It's probably one of those pairings that won't go away even though they weren't together too long in actual canon. They're both main bat characters.
> 
> 
> That is one of the reason i againt dick/babs. If dick is to become more than just a bat-character and have his own world/place in the dcu he can not have his life revolve around bat-characters.


Agreed plus Babs and Dick never work out well anyway.

----------


## Claude

> Barbara doesn't know agen 8, she isn't Agent 8 adoptive something and she isn't going to have to deal with her ever. Dick and Babs were seen other people before but it was never famili.Babs can do whatever she wants if she wants Jason then it's over with Dick


It isn't over with Dick.

_It never happened with Dick._

Nightwing Annual, Grayson Future's End, Batgirl #3.... They were never together. Barbara is under no obligation to "save herself" for Dick.

----------


## Rakiduam

> It isn't over with Dick.
> 
> _It never happened with Dick._
> 
> Nightwing Annual, Grayson Future's End, Batgirl #3.... They were never together. Barbara is under no obligation to "save herself" for Dick.


Barbara can't do whatever she want, whit who ever she wants. I'm now worried for what Barbara may want I'm worried about what the DC wants. If they are going to paring Barbara and Jason then it should be over with Dick.

No more will or will not, no more things like Nightwing Annual or Batgirl #3.  Let it be OVER.

----------


## Claude

> Barbara can't do whatever she want, whit who ever she wants.


Why?




> No more will or will not, no more things like Nightwing Annual or Batgirl #3.  Let it be OVER.


Nightwing Annual wasn't "will they/wont they". It was "they wont: the story".

----------


## Rakiduam

> Why?.


Sorry is "can" not "can't".My mistake.

I don't trust the DC not to do the most obvious cliche story possible. Just look at Batman Beyond 2.0.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It really makes the most sense for both Dick and Babs to stay separate and find their own love interests (or not) in their own books, at least for the time being. Maybe somewhere down the line, when someone needs a status quo shift to shake things up, they can be paired up. But it doesn't make much sense tonally for them to cross paths any time soon.

----------


## Claude

> Sorry is "can" not "can't".My mistake.


Oh, fair enough then.  :Smile: 




> I don't trust the DC not to do the most obvious cliche story possible. Just look at Batman Beyond 2.0.


...Do I _have_ to?

**ick**

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> It really makes the most sense for both Dick and Babs to stay separate and find their own love interests (or not) in their own books, at least for the time being. Maybe somewhere down the line, when someone needs a status quo shift to shake things up, they can be paired up. But it doesn't make much sense tonally for them to cross paths any time soon.


As much as I like the pairing I agree, trying to make it work in the near future probably wouldn't work. I'm still unsure about a Dick/Helena romance, I think it's one of those things that would burn hot but fast.

----------


## Markov

I grew up with the Starfire relationship in the Titans so i never bought too much in to the Batgirl relationship, it was nice later on when they progressed into the odd flirting then relationship when she was Oracle but now she's Batgirl and not a support role in anymore i've no interest, for characters to have a relationship they should be involved in a series together not running on solo series but the odd page here and there it's not something you can follow and invest in, the Barbara/Jason hints don't surprise me as there's that much merging of character histories within the Robins that nobody knows what is development for them

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm not sure, actually. I feel like the FE issue has already shown everything that could result from a Dick/Helena romance.


Yeah.  She bitches at him nonstop.

----------


## Godlike13

I think they like Dick and Babs in that will they/won't they place, with that tension between the two. Kind of like with Batman and Catwoman.

----------


## Claude

> Yeah.  She bitches at him nonstop.


You have a _very_ low threshold for "bitching".

It's true that Helena wouldn't have his dinner on the table every night, but Dick probably wouldn't be interested in anyone who couldn't form a double-act with anyway.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That said, I do want to see Dick/Helena play out as a partnership/friendship. I think Seeley and King will continue to make him into a James Bond chick magnet type.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I think they like Dick and Babs in that will they/won't they place, with that tension between the two. Kind of like with Batman and Catwoman.


But those ate completely different dynamics. Batman and Catwoman have legit reasons why they never get together. Dick and Babs just have "bad timing".

----------


## Markov

With the head of Spyral being a villain in the sense of revealing identities how does Spyral in it's current format not be on borrowed time? 

The only alternatives i can think of is Minos being removed as head of the snake to be replaced by someone of sounder mind then the series can continue on a more clearer mission

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> With the head of Spyral being a villain in the sense of revealing identities how does Spyral in it's current format not be on borrowed time? 
> 
> The only alternatives i can think of is Minos being removed as head of the snake to be replaced by someone of sounder mind then the series can continue on a more clearer mission


Someone like a circus acrobat?

----------


## Markov

I was thinking it would be more like Helena but even then it could spoil some of their dynamic so maybe someone new or from the Midnighter side of things (clash of agencies)

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, I think Seeley said that Tiger was going to be an important character.

----------


## Godlike13

> But those ate completely different dynamics. Batman and Catwoman have legit reasons why they never get together. Dick and Babs just have "bad timing".


My point is they like to have romantic tension between the two, like with Batman and Catwoman. The whole "bad timing" is just an excuse so they can keep it. Its the same thing with Batman and Catwoman, and why they never get together. Even if the in story excuses differ.




> Someone like a circus acrobat?


Or circus daredevil.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Still holding out for Dick Fury.

----------


## Markov

> Still holding out for Dick Fury.



Read Batman Beyond

----------


## Badou

I am not a big fan of the Dick and Babs romance anymore. It has been awful for a long term with how it has stagnated, but her being with Jason is as bad as her hooking up with Bruce or Tim. It's just gross. It's there to cause tension and force Dick, Jason and Babs to get at odds with each other. Never cared for that soap opera type of writing. 

I have very little interest in Dick being with New 52 Helena B., but I still want to see Dick in a romance with an actual super powered hero again. I can't remember when Dick last had an interesting love interest. Him and Stafire is pretty much done now with how much they have pushed her towards Roy and Jason. I can't see her and Dick ever being that close again, but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a Power Girl (never going to happen), a Vixen, Donna (if she isn't brought back as a 12 year old like Wally), or maybe even a Green Lantern. Something different and unexpected. 




> Still holding out for Dick Fury.


That would be awful.

----------


## Aioros22

Dick and Starfire have been done ever since Wolfman finished his whole stint on Titans after the marriage attempt in the 90`s.

----------


## Badou

> Dick and Starfire have been done ever since Wolfman finished his whole stint on Titans after the marriage attempt in the 90`s.


Nah, they had hints and threads left over even back when Dick was Batman before the reboot. Since the Titans were still a thing back then. Now those have been cut for like likes of Roy, haha.

----------


## byrd156

> I am not a big fan of the Dick and Babs romance anymore. It has been awful for a long term with how it has stagnated, but her being with Jason is as bad as her hooking up with Bruce or Tim. It's just gross. It's there to cause tension and force Dick, Jason and Babs to get at odds with each other. Never cared for that soap opera type of writing. 
> 
> I have very little interest in Dick being with New 52 Helena B., but I still want to see Dick in a romance with an actual super powered hero again. I can't remember when Dick last had an interesting love interest. Him and Stafire is pretty much done now with how much they have pushed her towards Roy and Jason. I can't see her and Dick ever being that close again, but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a Power Girl (never going to happen), a Vixen, Donna (if she isn't brought back as a 12 year old like Wally), or maybe even a Green Lantern. Something different and unexpected. 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be awful.


Those are some pretty good ideas, but I cant see him moving more towards the rest of the DCnU without leaving Spyral.

----------


## Rakiduam

> My point is they like to have romantic tension between the two, like with Batman and Catwoman. The whole "bad timing" is just an excuse so they can keep it. Its the same thing with Batman and Catwoman, and why they never get together. Even if the in story excuses differ.


But isn't that Jason and Babs relationship now? That makes the "Im not Dick Grayson" line even more funny.

Romance is not necessary for two characters to be really close, just look at Dick and Donna. And Helena and Dick have been friends in almost every continuity, Dick trusted Helena so much that left her in charge while he had to deal with Jason's latest identity crisis in "Battle for the cowl"

I think it would be cool if Tiger and Helena ended being moles too and working for someone else, it would work with the idea of The maze of Thebes

----------


## Godlike13

> But isn't that Jason and Babs relationship now? That makes the "Im not Dick Grayson" line even more funny.


Eeh, its hard to say right now if its anything beyond just an weird instance of Bab awkwardly throwing herself at him.

----------


## byrd156

> Eeh, its hard to say right now if its anything beyond just an weird instance of Bab awkwardly throwing herself at him.


I bet this whole instance will be completely forgotten in a few months. Also I thought that there was going to be a push for Kara and Jason to get together.

----------


## oasis1313

Isn't Jason a little YOUNG for Barbara?  Before the reboot, she was several years older than Dick.  I guess Tim will get his turn, too.

----------


## M L A

> Isn't Jason a little YOUNG for Barbara?  Before the reboot, she was several years older than Dick.  I guess Tim will get his turn, too.


She and Dick are the same age now. Also Jason is probably 19 or something.

----------


## oasis1313

> She and Dick are the same age now. Also Jason is probably 19 or something.


How old are Barbara and Dick now?  It used to be endearing when she would kiss Dick and make him blush.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Both are 21. Pre-Flashpoint, her age got retconned several times. I don't think she was ever more than just a few years older than Dick by the time they started dating.

----------


## colossus34

> I am not a big fan of the Dick and Babs romance anymore. It has been awful for a long term with how it has stagnated, but her being with Jason is as bad as her hooking up with Bruce or Tim. It's just gross. It's there to cause tension and force Dick, Jason and Babs to get at odds with each other. Never cared for that soap opera type of writing. 
> 
> I have very little interest in Dick being with New 52 Helena B., but I still want to see Dick in a romance with an actual super powered hero again. I can't remember when Dick last had an interesting love interest. Him and Stafire is pretty much done now with how much they have pushed her towards Roy and Jason. I can't see her and Dick ever being that close again, but I wouldn't mind seeing him with a Power Girl (never going to happen), a Vixen, Donna (if she isn't brought back as a 12 year old like Wally), or maybe even a Green Lantern. Something different and unexpected. 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be awful.


I AGREE Dick/Starfire just made perfect sense because of Nightwing's swashbuckling circus persona and danger/adrenaline junkie lifestyle. The two were just fireworks so I always found plain jane Babs as an awful and forced relationship for Dick by the bat editors. Dick needs someone out of this world, literally to keep him excited and on his toes. The new female Green Lantern, Vixen, or maybe an Atlantanian princess is who Dick should be hooking up with.

----------


## Godlike13

Plain jane Babs?  :Confused:

----------


## WonderNight

Zatanna or power Girl for me! they are super powerful, super powered dcu (not BAT) characters and also down to earth. Plus there big enough that can help dick become bigger and not some knowbody that comes in and gets killed off in 10 issues (raya) or goes m.i.a (sonia branch). But hey thats just me.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of every single possible romantic interest that Dick's ever had?

----------


## oasis1313

> Does anyone have a comprehensive list of every single possible romantic interest that Dick's ever had?


Can't count that high.

----------


## M L A

> Does anyone have a comprehensive list of every single possible romantic interest that Dick's ever had?


Kory

Emily (from Annual #1 – the pulp annual) **not really a love interest, wasn't interested, didn't do anything with her, written by Devin Grayson iirc

Clancy

Helena B **wanted more, she declined because she wanted him and Barbara together, written by Devin Grayson iirc

Barbara

Cheyenne Fremont

Lori Elton (precrisis)

Liu **retconned in, wanted more but she wasn't a good person

Deborah **one arc

Raya **one arc

Agent 8

His love life is pretty exaggerated. He did literally nothing besides the retconned in girl and Cheyenne after he and Barbara broke up. There might be a couple more but my memory says no. It's more of a he attracts people but he's either oblivious or embarrassed and nothing happens. Or he gets sexually assaulted. Both seem quite common.

----------


## byrd156

> Kory
> 
> Emily (from Annual #1 – the pulp annual) **not really a love interest, wasn't interested, didn't do anything with her, written by Devin Grayson iirc
> 
> Clancy
> 
> Helena B **wanted more, she declined because she wanted him and Barbara together, written by Devin Grayson iirc
> 
> Barbara
> ...


There are more romantic interests than that. There is a picture on this thread (I think it's on here)that has pretty much all his love interests on it.

----------


## M L A

> There are more romantic interests than that. There is a picture on this thread (I think it's on here)that has pretty much all his love interests on it.


The kissing booth one?

----------


## byrd156

> The kissing booth one?


Yeah that one. That just shows the bigger ones.

----------


## M L A

> Yeah that one. That just shows the bigger ones.


He didn't do anything with any of those women though. Just Barbara, Kory, Helena B, and who I think is Clancy.

In fact he was more exasperated by Supergirl and I think Argent. And Steph is on there for some reason when nope.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

There was also Kate Spencer. Hey backup story in Streets of Gotham ended with them agreeing to go out. And there was mutual interest with New 52 Sonia Branch before Forever Evil happened.

And then there's a laundry list of women that he flirted with, and ones who have a major crush on him.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

January's Grayson cover variant, by Jock

GRAY_Cv6_FLS75_var.jpg

 :Frown:

----------


## Markov

Great Cover - very clever


I hope we see a bigger celebration for the other characters turning 75 (Dick Grayson being one of them) - covers aren't good enough,

----------


## Badou

Love Jock but that is an incredibly lazy variant cover. He probably did that in like 3 mins. He just added Flash to a cover he already did in the past. 

Also I guess we know what they are going to do for Dick's 75th Anniversary. Just give him a variant cover month, but I wonder if they will give him on or if it will be all the Robins. I mean it isn't Barry's 75th anniversary, it's Jay's, but every cover has Barry on it. Also Dick's anniversary falls on them moving to California. So I wonder how that will impact it. Oh well. Shame he missed out on the Batman 75th Anniversary.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Love Jock but that is an incredibly lazy variant cover. He probably did that in like 3 mins. He just added Flash to a cover he already did in the past. 
> 
> Also I guess we know what they are going to do for Dick's 75th Anniversary. Just give him a variant cover month, but I wonder if they will give him on or if it will be all the Robins. I mean it isn't Barry's 75th anniversary, it's Jay's, but every cover has Barry on it. Also Dick's anniversary falls on them moving to California. So I wonder how that will impact it. Oh well. Shame he missed out on the Batman 75th Anniversary.


Isn't Dick's anniversary the same month that the Joker anniversary? If so it would be lucky if they even give  ROBIN a variant cover month.

----------


## Markov

> Love Jock but that is an incredibly lazy variant cover. He probably did that in like 3 mins. He just added Flash to a cover he already did in the past. 
> 
> Also I guess we know what they are going to do for Dick's 75th Anniversary. Just give him a variant cover month, but I wonder if they will give him on or if it will be all the Robins. I mean it isn't Barry's 75th anniversary, it's Jay's, but every cover has Barry on it. Also Dick's anniversary falls on them moving to California. So I wonder how that will impact it. Oh well. Shame he missed out on the Batman 75th Anniversary.


Most of the covers are originals with the Flash threw in

----------


## Badou

> Isn't Dick's anniversary the same month that the Joker anniversary? If so it would be lucky if they even give  ROBIN a variant cover month.


I think Dick's anniversary is in April and Joker's is in July. But that's the Joker. They will obviously do something bigger than just variant covers for him I think. 




> Most of the covers are originals with the Flash threw in


Yeah, a lot of them are, but a lot are also homages and redraws of classic covers with the Flash put in too. But this Grayson one feels like it was done quickly in photoshop in a few mins to me. I just expect better from Jock is all.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It'll probably be a Robin anniversary.

----------


## RichSummers

> January's Grayson cover variant, by Jock
> 
> GRAY_Cv6_FLS75_var.jpg


Homage to Dick/Wally.  :Frown:

----------


## Badou

So it seems like Carrie Kelley is going to be the Robin in the Batman vs Superman movie. They are going full Dark Knight Returns it seems. 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...n-vs-superman/

----------


## OversizedLoad

> So it seems like Carrie Kelley is going to be the Robin in the Batman vs Superman movie. They are going full Dark Knight Returns it seems. 
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...n-vs-superman/


Unconfirmed and horrifying. A perfect combo

----------


## oasis1313

Dick is such a good-hearted guy and there's all these needy women around, he just feels so gosh-darned sorry for them, so he tries to do something nice for them and make them happy.  He doesn't seem like a player per se, with all the come-on lines and hey-baby-what's-your-sign stuff.  I guess when you're THAT handsome and THAT sexy, women just fall into your lap likes raindrops from a cloud.

----------


## BloodOps

> So it seems like Carrie Kelley is going to be the Robin in the Batman vs Superman movie. They are going full Dark Knight Returns it seems. 
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...n-vs-superman/


Still unconfirmed and using sites like bleedingcool and comicbookmovie as sources is a bad idea.

Lets hope this is a rumor and stays that way.

----------


## Badou

> Still unconfirmed and using sites like bleedingcool and comicbookmovie as sources is a bad idea.


Well the story didn't originate on bleedingcool. It's just were I originally saw it.

Although BC has gotten some fairly big things right over the last year about comics anyway.

----------


## WonderNight

> It'll probably be a Robin anniversary.


If there is a robin anniversary it needs to be dick's robin anniversary and his alone. Dick is THE robin and its his anniversary. If dc thinks they can just do a robin  anniversary than were is my dickbats batman anniversary and my donna troy-wonder woman anniversary.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> So it seems like Carrie Kelley is going to be the Robin in the Batman vs Superman movie. They are going full Dark Knight Returns it seems. 
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...n-vs-superman/


If there is one Robin I don't want to see on the big screen, it'd be her. Ugh. But then I hate all things Frank Miller.

----------


## byrd156

> If there is one Robin I don't want to see on the big screen, it'd be her. Ugh. But then I hate all things Frank Miller.


Frank Miller is just awful. I hate the way he writes Dick Grayson.

----------


## dick_wingnut

I loved Frank's take on DG in All Star, and I love his revision of Dick's origin.

If this casting turns out to be true, and it makes sense given just how much Snyder and Warner is cribbing from TDKR, it could turn out incredibly cool.

Would be a bummer if they dont even mention Dick at all though.

I am a certified Snyder hater, but that damn comicon teaser sold me.

----------


## byrd156

> I loved Frank's take on DG in All Star, and I love his revision of Dick's origin.
> 
> If this casting turns out to be true, and it makes sense given just how much Snyder and Warner is cribbing from TDKR, it could turn out incredibly cool.
> 
> Would be a bummer if they dont even mention Dick at all though.
> 
> I am a certified Snyder hater, but that damn comicon teaser sold me.


How is the origin any better? They were shot in the middle of circus, by a guy named Jocko boy. How does someone even get the nickname Jocko Boy? Also tieing Dick to that horrible excuse for the Joker is just bad writing. Everyone including Dick in ASBAR was insane.

----------


## Claude

I'm no fan of Frank Miller, but Carrie Kelly is a decent way to 1) Increase the number of female characters, 2) Build up a "new to the game" support cast if you want to use these characters in a less DCU-tied film and 3) Show a Batman "discovering himself" and returning to the iconic status quo.


Almost despite myself, I think it would be a clever move. Although I'd like for Dick to still exist in-canon though as the "Robin" of whom Carrie would be aware.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> I loved Frank's take on DG in All Star, and I love his revision of Dick's origin.
> 
> If this casting turns out to be true, and it makes sense given just how much Snyder and Warner is cribbing from TDKR, it could turn out incredibly cool.
> 
> Would be a bummer if they dont even mention Dick at all though.
> 
> I am a certified Snyder hater, but that damn comicon teaser sold me.


It's all personal taste of course, but to me the only decent thing in All Star was the art, which was glorious. I particularly disliked his Batman.

----------


## RockinRobin

Sigh.

Seems like it'll be a long time until we get a proper Grayson in a movie. It's so frustrating that DC seems to...dislike? him for some reason. Always has been and always will be by #1 favorite comic book character, and one who should have had his chance in a movie done right.

----------


## dick_wingnut

> How is the origin any better? They were shot in the middle of circus, by a guy named Jocko boy. How does someone even get the nickname Jocko Boy? Also tieing Dick to that horrible excuse for the Joker is just bad writing. Everyone including Dick in ASBAR was insane.


I didnt say it was better, I just dug parts of it.

I liked the way the shooting ties Robin's origin a little closer to Batman's, and I really like that Bruce was scouting Dick as a possible replacement. I like that Bruce is so crazy that he thinks about Batman needing to live on after he is gone. Also how Bruce is amazed by Dicks ability and potential is nice considering Robin is traditionally considered kind of goofy and vulnerable.

I love the way Frank makes them all crazy, because the idea of running around in tights and fighting gun wielding criminals with batarangs is pretty to begin with. Plus, I imagine having your parents murdered in front of you wouldnt do wonders for your mental stability.

I can understand not digging it, its pretty out there, but can we all agree the scene with Green Lantern was amazing?

----------


## dick_wingnut

DP sorry 10 characters

----------


## WonderNight

Who do you want to see dick have do a team up with? I would like to see dick and wonder woman do a team up. They are two of dc's most iconic character but have no interections together and its time to get these two second have of trinity together.

----------


## oasis1313

> Sigh.
> 
> Seems like it'll be a long time until we get a proper Grayson in a movie. It's so frustrating that DC seems to...dislike? him for some reason. Always has been and always will be by #1 favorite comic book character, and one who should have had his chance in a movie done right.


Welcome to Wingnut Land.  My hatred of Drake and love for Grayson are about the same sized solar system as Dan Didio's love for Drake and hatred of Grayson.  Just keep supporting Dick because our dollars are his only chance of survival in the hostile environment of DC.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Did you guys know that DiDio hates Dick Grayson?

----------


## oasis1313

> Did you guys know that DiDio hates Dick Grayson?


No!  Fuzzy, you've totally rocked my world!

----------


## phonogram12

> Did you guys know that DiDio hates Dick Grayson?


If they did they wouldn't've bothered to feature him in his third ongoing (his second in the new 52), a popular cartoon on CN, and most likely on the new TT live action tv show. Sounds more like a bit of paranoia to me. And to take that out on other characters fantastic in their own right is petty to say the least.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

From what I've read, he doesn't hate him, just sees him as a bit pointless.

----------


## dick_wingnut

And hes right too, all the redundant wanna-be robins they tried to create over the years made Dick pretty damn pointless.

Dick and Damien are the only ones that felt right to me.

----------


## godisawesome

Maybe Dick wouldn't have been "pointless" to the higher-ups if they hadn't tried to burn up all the stuff Dixon built for him in over 60 issues...

That was when I drifted away from Nightwing for a while. Dick had his own memorable rogues gallery, a certified hometown to live in and save himself, and a unique supporting cast and civilian life. It really sold him as being the first of Bruce's heirs, and while some would see it as a knockoff of Daredevil, I'll say it did a lot to make him a peer to Bruce.

And then they blew it all up.

I was a bigger fan of Dick than Tim by a lot when I was reading the first volume of his solo. But Tim's setting and characters scraped by even through the editorial trauma conga line they put him through, so when Dick was fighting weird fire-robot man I a New York setting, I didn't care, because Tim was still talking to Ives and fighting Jaeger et al.

And as a person who is currently a Tim Drake partisan, I just want to say that if Didio is showing his favoritism towards Tim via his current status quo, I'd rather he stop, let Tim have a solo, and give that guy a mission statement of differentiating Tim from Dick to at least Dixon levels.

----------


## Markov

Well Didio's opinion shouldn't matter too much as writers have been creating copies of Dick Grayson for 74 years now, the fact is he's the original sidekick that launched numerous series, the backbone of team books and was the Batman of the modern era, regardless of one mans opinion (he's entitled to it, i've my own on his writing career and sales record) Dick Grayson sells it's a fact nobody can argue with and without Dick Grayson you have no other Robins - the very opposite of pointless

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Geez, my comment was just teasing oasis for bringing up "Didio hates Dick" again.

Didio actually loves the new Grayson book.

----------


## byrd156

I don't think I will ever get this whole "character is pointless" argument about Dick.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

To clarify, I'm NOT agreeing with what seems to be his opinion, Dick has been and probably always will be, my favourite.

----------


## byrd156

> To clarify, I'm NOT agreeing with what seems to be his opinion, Dick has been and probably always will be, my favourite.


Same he has been my favorite comic book character for as long as I can remember.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Geez, my comment was just teasing oasis for bringing up "Didio hates Dick" again.
> 
> Didio actually loves the new Grayson book.


Of course he does! It keeps Dick completely isolated of the rest of the DC while Json replaces him and it still makes money for the DC.

----------


## HLOTS

Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.

Jason Todd is the badass Robin, the chosen one, and according to Roy and Kory the better friend.

Damian Wayne is Batman's true heir, the legitimate son. He's also the most popular Robin right now.

Sorry but Dick just can't compete.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Dick's the only one who can sell a solo title.

----------


## byrd156

> Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Jason Todd is the badass Robin, the chosen one, and according to Roy and Kory the better friend.
> 
> Damian Wayne is Batman's true heir, the legitimate son. He's also the most popular Robin right now.
> 
> Sorry but Dick just can't compete.


This is purely the New 52 versions. If you were comparing the pre-52 versions it would be a lot different.

Besides all the New 52 versions of these characters suck.

----------


## Kid A

> Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Sorry but Dick just can't compete.


I don't want Dick competing with fanfic characters.

----------


## byrd156

> Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Jason Todd is the badass Robin, the chosen one, and according to Roy and Kory the better friend.
> 
> Damian Wayne is Batman's true heir, the legitimate son. He's also the most popular Robin right now.
> 
> Sorry but Dick just can't compete.


Also the "Chosen One"? What does that even mean? 

Most of those traits were Dick's but they were taken to give to the other Robins. (Titan's founder, star athlete/acrobat, Roy and Kory, True Heir)

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Dick got dumbed down in the reboot, but he is still the better gymnast. Don't forget most of tim and Jason's attributes were Dick's - including founding the Teen Titans and being friend to pretty much every other hero. Which is why, though I used to like Tim, I've gone off him. 




> Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Jason Todd is the badass Robin, the chosen one, and according to Roy and Kory the better friend.
> 
> Damian Wayne is Batman's true heir, the legitimate son. He's also the most popular Robin right now.
> 
> Sorry but Dick just can't compete.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Dick was also a secret trainee to be part of an ancient assassin organization. And can read movements, to the point where he was able to learn Hypnos much faster than any other Spyral agent.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

In other words, it doesn't really matter for crap how writers fluff up their own characters in their own books.

----------


## Kid A

> Dick got dumbed down in the reboot, but he is still the better gymnast. Don't forget most of tim and Jason's attributes were Dick's - including founding the Teen Titans and being friend to pretty much every other hero. Which is why, though I used to like Tim, I've gone off him.


Dick has always been a skilled detective too, it just got conveniently forgotten about so that Tim could be "the detective Robin."  

Contrary to popular belief, Jason hasn't adopted Dick's traits in that way.  He doesn't charismatically lead his team the way Dick did with the Titans; the Outlaws are a gang of misfits who end up reluctantly bonding.

----------


## dropkickjake

Hey, whats the latest on that TNT Titans show?

Also, I may be the only one here, but i really hope that show never sees production. Teen Titans seems pretty difficult to pull off live action, and if it sucks it will ruin any chance of DG hitting the small screen in the near future. I'd rather wait it out a little bit longer and have a Grayson adaptation make the transition, preferably into the arrow-verse.

----------


## byrd156

> Hey, whats the latest on that TNT Titans show?
> 
> Also, I may be the only one here, but i really hope that show never sees production. Teen Titans seems pretty difficult to pull off live action, and if it sucks it will ruin any chance of DG hitting the small screen in the near future. I'd rather wait it out a little bit longer and have a Grayson adaptation make the transition, preferably into the arrow-verse.


I haven't heard anything about it yet. It will probably be great and I really can't wait for it.

I just want something good that's Titans and Dick Grayson related. I would really hate a Grayson adaptation, the comic series is good I just think the premise is lame and won't help Dick in the long run.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

There hasn't been any news on TNT Titans. There's a chance that it got picked up for a pilot, since all sources have claimed that talks were very close. Either way, we probably won't hear about it for a while.

----------


## Markov

> Tim Drake is the smart Robin. He's a better detective than even Batman. He's also an Olympic Gold Medalist gymnast who can bring down a whole army of ninjas on his own and the leader/founder of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Jason Todd is the badass Robin, the chosen one, and according to Roy and Kory the better friend.
> 
> Damian Wayne is Batman's true heir, the legitimate son. He's also the most popular Robin right now.
> 
> Sorry but Dick just can't compete.


I have no knowledge of new 52 Tim - is he really an olympic gold medal gymnast? jesus how lazy was the writer making tims new origin

----------


## Markov

> Geez, my comment was just teasing oasis for bringing up "Didio hates Dick" again.
> 
> Didio actually loves the new Grayson book.


apologies bud just jumping in on the usual Didio debate

----------


## dropkickjake

I think the specific premise of the "first season" of comics has its problems, but the general premise of the series (Dick Grayson, the DCU's greatest spy) has massive potential, both for a television adaption and for the character himself. We've had the conversations to death, and I don't aim to reopen them here, but rogueish, charming spy is just something so completely different than Bruce. And the spy story genre just plain works for TV. I am worried they will completely bungle Titans and that it will be worse than Gotham.

A TV show would also be a great chance to rework the origin so that it need not include the crime syndacate, or him getting n00bed in general. Just have the opening scene of the show be Dick taking down Blockbuster in a way that appears to kill him. When he awakes from the coma, he finds out about Spyral, either from Bruce or some other means. I just want something good that's Titans and Dick Grayson related. I would really hate a Grayson adaptation, the comic series is good I just think the premise is lame and won't help Dick in the long run.

----------


## Markov

If a Titans tv show has any success i would expect a return to Nightwing to follow, with sales of both series around the same numbers then it makes sense to have a single brand

for my part i enjoy both so i'm happy to read a Dick Grayson book regardless

----------


## Dzetoun

A new interview that Geeked Out Nation did with Tim Seeley about _Grayson_ and _Eternal_.  Some hints about the general direction of the story, and the role Helena will play.

http://www.geekedoutnation.com/interview-tim-seeley/

----------


## byrd156

> I think the specific premise of the "first season" of comics has its problems, but the general premise of the series (Dick Grayson, the DCU's greatest spy) has massive potential, both for a television adaption and for the character himself. We've had the conversations to death, and I don't aim to reopen them here, but rogueish, charming spy is just something so completely different than Bruce. And the spy story genre just plain works for TV. I am worried they will completely bungle Titans and that it will be worse than Gotham.
> 
> A TV show would also be a great chance to rework the origin so that it need not include the crime syndacate, or him getting n00bed in general. Just have the opening scene of the show be Dick taking down Blockbuster in a way that appears to kill him. When he awakes from the coma, he finds out about Spyral, either from Bruce or some other means. I just want something good that's Titans and Dick Grayson related. I would really hate a Grayson adaptation, the comic series is good I just think the premise is lame and won't help Dick in the long run.


I'm not arguing that the spy angle won't work it would, any show about Dick Grayson would probably do good. Just the way the current story is, it limits him a lot more than people realize. The Spyral story is so far out of the way to the rest of the DCnU. Plus in the show are they going to have all the Justice Leagers in it since that's what is going on currently?  Dick is already completely different from Bruce. I don't get why people keep bringing up that argument, their character is what makes them different not the way they battle injustice and crime.

After Dick stops Spyral then what? The spy angle is pretty much dead from there, he doesn't want to be a spy he is only doing it for Bruce.

----------


## WonderNight

> I don't think I will ever get this whole "character is pointless" argument about Dick.


I know right if dick is pointless then way so many damn clones, if all these other robins are so great than were would they be if they could not use/have/do what dick has already.

----------


## byrd156

> I know right if dick is pointless then way so many damn clones, if all these other robins are so great than were would they be if they could not use/have/do what dick has already.


Yeah they had to take almost all his awesome traits and hand them out to the other Robins like candy in the New 52.

----------


## RockinRobin

To be fair, I do think Tim was a better Robin than Dick. Jason is like edgy Robin, a good character in his own right, but so different its hard to compare. Same with Damian, who was very story-centric to Morrison's vision. I really think the comparison is between Dick and Tim, who are probably my number 1 and number 3 favorite characters. 

Dick is, I think, the greatest DC character because of how well-rounded he is. He is the better friend (this some post new 52 nonsense that he isn't? What?!), the better leader, the one character who unites the DC universe. Raised by Batman, trained by Superman, 
the kid that grew up" to the elder members of the Justice League. Superman has a naturally commanding presence, and people naturally follow him, but Dick is better at leading others. He is the product of when someone is raised by Batman, but influenced by the other superheroes as well. He's not perfect, but that's what makes him interesting. It's like we're still watching him grow. 

Sorry, ranted out of nowhere there for a second...

----------


## Kid A

> After Dick stops Spyral then what? The spy angle is pretty much dead from there, he doesn't want to be a spy he is only doing it for Bruce.


The spy angle is only dead if you have a limited imagination of story possibilities from there.  Among a dozen other possibilities, I can see Dick either running his own sect of Spyral, or running a new spy organization altogether.

----------


## byrd156

> The spy angle is only dead if you have a limited imagination of story possibilities from there.  Among a dozen other possibilities, I can see Dick either running his own sect of Spyral, or running a new spy organization altogether.


It's not limited imagination, I'm just saying with the way he is right now it doesn't make sense for him to stay being a spy after he finishes his mission.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It's not limited imagination, I'm just saying with the way he is right now it doesn't make sense for him to stay being a spy after he finishes his mission.


As Batman said "The mission is never over."

----------


## Kid A

> It's not limited imagination, I'm just saying with the way he is right now it doesn't make sense for him to stay being a spy after he finishes his mission.


Covert operations will always have a useful purpose, especially if Dick finds that he's good at it.

----------


## byrd156

> As Batman said "The mission is never over."


That's the never ending battle against crime, I think taking down a spy agency can have an end.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That's when he starts taking over the spy agency.

----------


## oasis1313

He could create a new superhero identity:  The Blue Hood.  Actually, with the hypnos implant, Dick could become the new Question or even the new Shadow.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> A new interview that Geeked Out Nation did with Tim Seeley about _Grayson_ and _Eternal_.  Some hints about the general direction of the story, and the role Helena will play.
> 
> http://www.geekedoutnation.com/interview-tim-seeley/


Thanks, there are some good bits in here.




> TS: The Futures End issue is really about worlds at war so it had to be about Dick going from superhero to spy to soldier. That story is not really what were exploring in the monthly series. Were exploring a guy whos sort of a flexible character but is morally inflexible. Hes now dealing with shades of grey when hes used to black and white. Thats what this book is about. The Futures End issue was about that story, that world and that crossover. And the ongoing series is going to continue to play with whether Dick Grayson is making the right decisions. Is he going native as he becomes more involved with Helena and his mission? Is he going to be able to come through this untainted and the hero we all know and love?





> TS: Batman Eternal is set up to be this huge thing that runs through all the Gotham characters. Part of it was to change some of the characters for a new storyline. Characters like Catwoman, we knew what we were going to do with her in Eternal but the story of Eternal itself is self contained. Even if you know what sort of happens at the end, the journey there will be full of twists. Youll want to know how the characters got to this place. Youll want to know how Catwoman got this position or why Batman is now fighting against the entire JLA. Youll get that in Batman Eternal.

----------


## oasis1313

I appreciated his statement that he didn't want to do a disservice to the readers.  That was such a refreshing change of pace from most comics pros.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The spy angle is only dead if you have a limited imagination of story possibilities from there.  Among a dozen other possibilities, I can see Dick either running his own sect of Spyral, or running a new spy organization altogether.


This.




> It's not limited imagination, I'm just saying with the way he is right now it doesn't make sense for him to stay being a spy after he finishes his mission.


I have to disagree with you here. We are essentially just at the end of act 1 of the opening Grayson story arc. Dick could easily find a reason to stay by the end of this mission. His relationship with Helena could improve. He could discover that Kathy Kane is still involved, running a sect of spyral that uses the vast information network for good. There are plenty of ways to keep this alive. Its fair to hope that it ends after one arc, but it is limited imagination to say that one this mission (which we can probably assume is only about 25% over) is the extent of the concept's shelf life.

----------


## SpiderWing20

I think the spy angle can last even without Spyral. Even when he does take down Spyral there's still the Fist of Cain and who knows he might even take the place of Midnighter in the God Garden. The book has more going for it than just Spyral. Besides, wouldn't you say he was practically a spy in Young Justice? Covert missions and going undercover, oh let's not forget the secrets and deception. He was practically a spy in YJ only difference was he was wearing a mask

----------


## WonderNight

> I think the spy angle can last even without Spyral. Even when he does take down Spyral there's still the Fist of Cain and who knows he might even take the place of Midnighter in the God Garden. The book has more going for it than just Spyral. Besides, wouldn't you say he was practically a spy in Young Justice? Covert missions and going undercover, oh let's not forget the secrets and deception. He was practically a spy in YJ only difference was he was wearing a mask


Yeah and like i said and also provse at he can be both nightwing and a spy at the same time. Also with the fist of cain, if dick ends up with helena.b, cassandra cain and kathy kane as his supporting cast i may want him to stay a spy as this chould be the best supporting cast outside of batman and superman.

----------


## Vinsanity

> That's the never ending battle against crime, I think taking down a spy agency can have an end.


Didn't stop Ethan Hunt and James Bond from continuing. There will always be a need for covert work as a spy. Just because SPECTRE (SMERSH in the books) ended, doesn't mean that Bond was like "Eh I'm done." I would like to same to be applied for Dick Grayson. This is something bold and different that should be continued.

----------


## brucekent12

Maybe Helena escapes and either carries on by herself, or starts her own agency, and Dick wanting to end this once and for all, continues after her.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...-the-band-aid/

I wonder what effect this will have on Grayson. Perhaps some old Titans history being re-inserted?

----------


## Rakiduam

> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...-the-band-aid/
> 
> I wonder what effect this will have on Grayson. Perhaps some old Titans history being re-inserted?


I vaguely remember Lobdell being one of the master minds of the The Band-Aid so I wouldn't have to much hope about it. Never mind they can't give Dick back what they took from him and used to build up Jason and Tim.

----------


## Kid A

Lobdell tried to keep the old Titans in continuity, but was nixed by editors.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Lobdell tried to keep the old Titans in continuity, but was nixed by editors.


To me it felt like he turned what was left of the Titans in the "I hate Dick Grayson club". Though I may be confused for Roy's comments, Starfire selective amnesia and the continual reminders that Jason Todd is their ONLY friend. 

Also, that one time he actually wrote Dick for two pages was awful.

----------


## OversizedLoad

1413833912452.jpg
Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Jock.

It's the battle you never thought you'd see, as Grayson goes toe to toe with the Midnighter!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Jan. 7.

----------


## Kid A

> 1413833912452.jpg
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Jock.
> 
> It's the battle you never thought you'd see, as Grayson goes toe to toe with the Midnighter!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Jan. 7.


Oh come on, this shouldn't even be a fight.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> 1413833912452.jpg
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Jock.
> 
> It's the battle you never thought you'd see, as Grayson goes toe to toe with the Midnighter!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Jan. 7.


neat

5 char

----------


## Rakiduam

> 1413833912452.jpg
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Jock.
> 
> It's the battle you never thought you'd see, as Grayson goes toe to toe with the Midnighter!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Jan. 7.


  :EEK!:  OMG this is how Dick dies

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Nah, Dick's ability to read movements a la Cassandra Cain that he's somehow forgotten for 30 issues of Nightwing will suddenly be factored in again.

----------


## K. Jones

It shouldn't even be a fight. That's rather the point.

Nothing wrong with being outclassed. Or doing the whole "natural pinnacle athlete versus enhanced." It's really not too different from you know ... Batman vs. Bane, or Batman vs. Deathstroke, or Dick vs. Deathstroke, or anybody vs. Captain America. You play up the differences between "The Natural" and "The Augment" and then you throw a twist in the mix because "bigger threat / unlikely allies ... for now ... / enemy of my enemy" tropes.

God that cover is gorgeous, though. And all that lime green Spyral goodness. Like some unholy child of Seventies Steranko and like ... Ra's al Ghul stories.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Wouldn't be surprised if Dick and Midnighter end up joining forces before the fight really starts.

----------


## OWL45

[Agree with youFuzzy Cactus;624192]Nah, Dick's ability to read movements a la Cassandra Cain that he's somehow forgotten for 30 issues of Nightwing will suddenly be factored in again.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. Seeley and King have referenced the ability a few times in Grayson. I think it will give him somewhat of a fighting chance or at least at least compete if they allow him to use the ability to it's potential . Honestly that should have been the case when he fought Shiva after the ability was introduced into his origin in Nightwing 0 but they dropped the ball.

----------


## Kid A

> It shouldn't even be a fight. That's rather the point.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being outclassed. Or doing the whole "natural pinnacle athlete versus enhanced." It's really not too different from you know ... Batman vs. Bane, or Batman vs. Deathstroke, or Dick vs. Deathstroke, or anybody vs. Captain America. You play up the differences between "The Natural" and "The Augment" and then you throw a twist in the mix because "bigger threat / unlikely allies ... for now ... / enemy of my enemy" tropes.


You would still have to seriously nerf Midnighter to make this work.  I mean the character was designed so that even though he's based on Batman, he's meta-enough to stand with the rest of the Authority.

----------


## OWL45

> You would still have to seriously nerf Midnighter to make this work.  I mean the character was designed so that even though he's based on Batman, he's meta-enough to stand with the rest of the Authority.


I don't think they need to degrade Midnighter at all. I think they need to upgrade or have Grayson elevate himself to another level with his abilities. I personally don't think he could beat him but honestly they could use it to show Dicks fighting potential especially if they have him use the body language reading ability to a higher degree than shown. I think Dick is looong over due for a good showing. They have Red Hood on Venom, Tim Drake is a genuis, Damian is coming back with super powers, Babs has the memory ability. What does Dick have?  I think they need to go all in with his ability to read people win or lose.

----------


## sanderling

> It shouldn't even be a fight. That's rather the point.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being outclassed. Or doing the whole "natural pinnacle athlete versus enhanced." It's really not too different from you know ... Batman vs. Bane, or Batman vs. Deathstroke, or Dick vs. Deathstroke, or anybody vs. Captain America. You play up the differences between "The Natural" and "The Augment" and then you throw a twist in the mix because "bigger threat / unlikely allies ... for now ... / enemy of my enemy" tropes.
> 
> God that cover is gorgeous, though. And all that lime green Spyral goodness. Like some unholy child of Seventies Steranko and like ... Ra's al Ghul stories.


I am so so so very excited for this.  And also a little nervous, because I'd hate to see Midnighter's fighting skills be downplayed to make this anything like a fair fight, but you're right K. Jones, its not like Batman doesn't defeat guys as big as a planet using only a batarang and some gumption on a regular basis.  On the plus side, this team has given me the best characterized (and best dressed) Midnighter in years in his two brief guest appearances and I have a lot of faith that this will work out well.  My guess is Grayson and Midnighter realize they have common goals, but is it wrong to hope that there is a little bit of Midnighter being amazing?  Maybe we'll get some of that if they're allies at some point.

And such a pretty cover.

----------


## BloodOps

> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/...-the-band-aid/
> 
> I wonder what effect this will have on Grayson. Perhaps some old Titans history being re-inserted?


A popular theory has been adding more years to the history and reinserting a Titans team led by Dick at sometime.

----------


## WonderNight

> I don't think they need to degrade Midnighter at all. I think they need to upgrade or have Grayson elevate himself to another level with his abilities. I personally don't think he could beat him but honestly they could use it to show Dicks fighting potential especially if they have him use the body language reading ability to a higher degree than shown. I think Dick is looong over due for a good showing. They have Red Hood on Venom, Tim Drake is a genuis, Damian is coming back with super powers, Babs has the memory ability. What does Dick have?  I think they need to go all in with his ability to read people win or lose.


Well yeah could give him the eletric escrima sticks from the games and also play up his hypnos and body reading together to equal dcu verison of the sharingan.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

This arms race between the Robins is starting to get silly. Damian will be impervious to bullets. Tim is an Olympic gymnast. Jason has magical swords and is a Venom junkie. Dick practically has mind reading and mind control powers.

----------


## OWL45

> Well yeah could give him the eletric escrima sticks from the games and also play up his hypnos and body reading together to equal dcu verison of the sharingan.


Give him something that differentiates him from the others. It's like feast or famine sometimes it seems. Being agile isn't cutting it anymore because the other Robins are to one degree or another. Like your saying playing up the hypnos and body language ability is the way to go in my opinion.

----------


## OWL45

It's kind of cool. The characters lost so much in the reboot the differences between the characters where almost non existent for awhile.

----------


## colossus34

> I don't think they need to degrade Midnighter at all. I think they need to upgrade or have Grayson elevate himself to another level with his abilities. I personally don't think he could beat him but honestly they could use it to show Dicks fighting potential especially if they have him use the body language reading ability to a higher degree than shown. I think Dick is looong over due for a good showing. They have Red Hood on Venom, Tim Drake is a genuis, Damian is coming back with super powers, Babs has the memory ability. What does Dick have?  I think they need to go all in with his ability to read people win or lose.


Dick is looooooong overdue to kick someones behind. I'll officially consider Seeley's talk about making Grayson "A-list" to be total fan hyperbole hype if he can't even find a way to write Dick beating the crap out of some wildstorm batman knockoff. DC really needs to SHOW how badass Grayson is just like Marvel did with Winter Solider or he's going to just keep looking like a chump in all the bat books.

----------


## Godlike13

Im never against them making Dick look more badass, but im not a fan of jobbing other characters for the sake of another. To me that come off as desperate, and i find it a poor way to try an inflate a character. And personally i don't think Dick really needs to be inflated or validated, especially not like that. They do that crap with Tim and Jason and it just makes me roll my eyes most of the time. Dicks brawl with Batman i thought was good because it reflected as well on Batman as it did on Dick IMO. So hopefully his battle with Midnighter follows suit with that.

----------


## K. Jones

Was looking at Grayson's sexy hair. For some reason thought of Boy Meets World.

Boy Wonder Meets World. So I was like, "Ah, Shawn Hunter hair ... but no. Jason Todd is totally the Shawn Hunter. Fear not, Grayson, you're not Cory Matthews. That's Tim Drake. Grayson is so clearly ERIC Matthews. At least as far as likability. Hey, that's Terry McGinnis, too."

Stream of thought sharing.

----------


## Kid A

> I don't think they need to degrade Midnighter at all. I think they need to upgrade or have Grayson elevate himself to another level with his abilities. I personally don't think he could beat him but honestly they could use it to show Dicks fighting potential especially if they have him use the body language reading ability to a higher degree than shown. I think Dick is looong over due for a good showing. They have Red Hood on Venom, Tim Drake is a genuis, Damian is coming back with super powers, Babs has the memory ability. What does Dick have?  I think they need to go all in with his ability to read people win or lose.


"Reading ability" is a joke when you're up against someone who has already run a thousand simulations in his head on how the fight will go down.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't think they need to degrade Midnighter at all. I think they need to upgrade or have Grayson elevate himself to another level with his abilities. I personally don't think he could beat him but honestly they could use it to show Dicks fighting potential especially if they have him use the body language reading ability to a higher degree than shown. I think Dick is looong over due for a good showing. They have Red Hood on Venom, Tim Drake is a genuis, Damian is coming back with super powers, Babs has the memory ability. What does Dick have?  I think they need to go all in with his ability to read people win or lose.


Dick USED to be pretty much a genius, he was an excellent student, smartest kid on the block, etc.  But Didio had Dick dumbed down to make his pwecious Timmy look better.  If he needs powers, there's a billion ways to give 'em to him.  Why not make him a master of hypos, develop telepathy, or something?  As for fighting Midnighter, I don't Midnighter will be able to bring himself to punch Dick's pretty face into hamburger.

----------


## phonogram12

> Dick USED to be pretty much a genius, he was an excellent student, smartest kid on the block, etc.  But Didio had Dick dumbed down to make his pwecious Timmy look better.


Smartest kid on the block, sure, but genius is pushing it. He was kicked out of college pre-52 after all.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> "Reading ability" is a joke when you're up against someone who has already run a thousand simulations in his head on how the fight will go down.


Yes, but this is comic book writing, where the logic and reasoning of who would win in a fight are suspended in favor of storytelling.




> Dick USED to be pretty much a genius, he was an excellent student, smartest kid on the block, etc.  But *Didio had Dick dumbed down to make his pwecious Timmy look better*.  If he needs powers, there's a billion ways to give 'em to him.  Why not make him a master of hypos, develop telepathy, or something?  As for fighting Midnighter, I don't Midnighter will be able to bring himself to punch Dick's pretty face into hamburger.


I'm gonna propose a drinking game here...

----------


## oasis1313

> Smartest kid on the block, sure, but genius is pushing it. He was kicked out of college pre-52 after all.


That was really weird because there had been mention of his being an honor student previously and the college dump pretty much came out of nowhere--wish fulfillment on the part of Grayson-hating DC editorial (I believe it was Denny O'Neil at the time.), which goes back even before Dan Didio's time.  I think it should have been retconned and repaired, but haven't you guys noticed that in ANY retcon with Dick Grayson, the negatives are kept while the positives are tossed out?  What the heck, Dick could probably take the Legal Bar Exam and pass it without even showing up in any classes; he's had to know the law so well over these years.

----------


## phonogram12

> That was really weird because there had been mention of his being an honor student previously and the college dump pretty much came out of nowhere--wish fulfillment on the part of Grayson-hating DC editorial (I believe it was Denny O'Neil at the time.), which goes back even before Dan Didio's time.  I think it should have been retconned and repaired, but haven't you guys noticed that in ANY retcon with Dick Grayson, the negatives are kept while the positives are tossed out?


I don't think so. He was still the best leader any group of Titans ever had. His flaws just added some texture to the character. Denny was probably one of the best writers and editors Batman has ever had.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

tumblr_lcba6j1VfJ1qbh9kk.jpg

He seems smart.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't think so. He was still the best leader any group of Titans ever had. His flaws just added some texture to the character. Denny was probably one of the best writers and editors Batman has ever had.


Denny was indeed one of the best writers and editors Batman ever had--NOT Dick Grayson.  In fact, shortly after the Max Allan Collins debacle, I had the honor and pleasure of interviewing Denny O'Neil in person for my fan-group at the time.  He told me to my own face that he was blind-sided by other issues going on in the office and not really paying attention to what was going on with Dick Grayson in that storyline, and he regretted it.  Of course, he didn't regret it enough to bother himself with fixing it.

----------


## phonogram12

Dick was almost exclusively a Titans character at the time. The Bat editorial crew pretty much just had to do a little rewriting and housecleaning due to COIE as quickly and cleanly as possible. As a pretty big Dick Grayson fan, I can't say it particularly bothered me the way they did it, especially since we were getting such great stories featuring the character over in TNTT.

----------


## Godlike13

I like Tomasi's take on Dick and school in the Batman and Robin Annul.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Yes, but this is comic book writing, where the logic and reasoning of who would win in a fight are suspended in favor of storytelling.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna propose a drinking game here...


Oh man better get the hospitals ready.

----------


## Kid A

> Yes, but this is comic book writing, where the logic and reasoning of who would win in a fight are suspended in favor of storytelling.


Well no shit.  That's why I'm worried Midnighter will get seriously nerfed.

----------


## OWL45

[QUOTE=Fuzzy Cactus;625587]Yes, but this is comic book writing, where the logic and reasoning of who would win in a fight are suspended in favor of storytelling.

I completely agree with you. If they want to he could be written with that ability to make the fight intresting. 
I'm not advocating to dumb down Midnighter but Dick needs to be allowed to step his game up.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Remember, the Hypnos swirly face effect applies retroactively. So Midnighter would have to stare at Dick's charming face the entire fight.

Also makes me wonder what happens if one of the Bat kids sees him. Would they also "forget" recognizing him as well?

----------


## OWL45

> Remember, the Hypnos swirly face effect applies retroactively. So Midnighter would have to stare at Dick's charming face the entire fight.
> 
> Also makes me wonder what happens if one of the Bat kids sees him. Would they also "forget" recognizing him as well?


Intresting question. I think they would. Bruce seems to have forgot Kathy Kane when he was trying to remember who shot Talia in Robin Rises Alpha.

----------


## Badou

I think the "reading ability" thing is kind of dumb. It felt like Higgins took it from Cass and gave it to Dick anyway.  Never felt natural to me. So I am fine if that stays forgotten in the old Nightwing run. I've never liked it when writers have to throw in some contrived reason to explain why someone beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat.

If they want Dick to fight and beat someone like Midnighter then give Dick similar enhancements to him and put them on more of an even footing. No need to lower Midnighter's character. I honestly think Dick would be a better and more interesting character with them.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Seeley already referenced it twice in the first two issues.

----------


## HLOTS

No need to make Dick smart or anything or a metahuman. Just make his escrima sticks more lethal.

----------


## dick_wingnut

> Smartest kid on the block, sure, but genius is pushing it. He was kicked out of college pre-52 after all.


Yeah, but the way it was put then was he felt college was boring and offered him nothing.

Dick pre Tim was absolutely put on a pedestal as DC's premier tactician, and given a lot more respect for his intellect.

Used to stick in my craw that he would go to lame ass also-ran Tim for help "detecting".

----------


## Godlike13

I don't mind the reading ability as long as they don't get ridiculous with it, like they did with Cass. It does make sense that for someone who was raised at birth to be part of an aerialist act, he might have a knack for reading people and their movements to a degree. 

Though if they want to increase his skill repertoire, it might interesting if they explored Dick's circus upbringing more. I mean kid growing up in a circus. So it'd make sense that he would have had pick up some tricks from the other performers.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think the "reading ability" thing is kind of dumb. It felt like Higgins took it from Cass and gave it to Dick anyway.  Never felt natural to me. So I am fine if that stays forgotten in the old Nightwing run. I've never liked it when writers have to throw in some contrived reason to explain why someone beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat.
> 
> If they want Dick to fight and beat someone like Midnighter then give Dick similar enhancements to him and put them on more of an even footing. No need to lower Midnighter's character. I honestly think Dick would be a better and more interesting character with them.


That's a possibility.  After all, Dick will need to do something about the overrides in his Hypnos implants, and Midnighter's allies in the God Garden would seem a logical source of help.  Why not give him an upgrade while they are at it?  They could outfit him with a battle computer and have Midnighter teach him how to use it.  That should please the people who want Dick to be more of a bad-ass.  He would have a battle computer plus hypnos powers and training from Batman and Midnighter.  So undefeatable, untraceable, and connected with the two premier shadow vigilantes in the DCU.  How bad-ass is that?

Actually, regardless of that issue, I doubt Dick and Midnighter will be enemies very long.  I think Seeley and King see him as already having a superpower -- he's irresistible.  I think Seeley once said that where Tim is the super genius Robin and Damian is the super dark Robin and Jason is the super vengeful Robin, Dick is the super humanist Robin.  Few who meet him can avoid being enthralled by him.  My suspicion is that Midnighter will prove no different.

----------


## DurararaFTW

I'm not all that much against dumbing down Midnighter. A DC character that is too powerful to interact with Batman and Superman is not a character thst is gonna thrive in nu52. Captain Atom taught us that much.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

All the versions I've seen have him quitting college, not being kicked out. 

Also I know nothing about Mightnighter. Recommended reading?

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> No need to make Dick smart or anything or a metahuman. Just make his escrima sticks more lethal.


That's not going to do much against Midnighter.




> All the versions I've seen have him quitting college, not being kicked out. 
> 
> Also I know nothing about Mightnighter. Recommended reading?


Ellis' Stormwatch/Authority is the best. Then other things have their moments, Millar's Authority, and he had a solo that ran for about twenty issues which had Ennis and Vaughan writing at points, but was mostly written by Giffen.

Chuck Dixon wrote a Midnighter/Grifter mini-series, but I wouldn't recommend that.

----------


## Godlike13

> So undefeatable, untraceable, and connected with the two premier shadow vigilantes in the DCU.  How bad-ass is that?


Um ya, no. That would be awful. Having a battle computer in his head for a day might make for a interesting issue, but outside of that the character would become unusable.

----------


## OWL45

[QE=Badou;625911]I think the "reading ability" thing is kind of dumb. It felt like Higgins took it from Cass and gave it to Dick anyway.  Never felt natural to me. So I am fine if that stays forgotten in the old Nightwing run. I've never liked it when writers have to throw in some contrived reason to explain why someone beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat.

If they want Dick to fight and beat someone like Midnighter then give Dick similar enhancements to him and put them on more of an even footing. No need to lower Midnighter's character. I honestly think Dick would be a better and more interesting character with them.[/QUOTE]

I don't mind enhancements. I feel the opposite in regards to the reading ability. It made sense when you look at how well he can influece, empathize, and understand others. One of the few things along with William Cobb that Higgins brought to his run that was intresting to me.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

He's also always been more off an improvisational thinker than the others. Bruce and Tim always go in with a plan. Barb has her photographic memory. Jason and Damian don't do much thinking in the first place. Dick, however, knows how to read the situation, react, and adapt on the fly.

----------


## phonogram12

> Yeah, but the way it was put then was he felt college was boring and offered him nothing.


I thought it was more that he just didn't make the time for it. Could be remembering it wrong, though.

----------


## phonogram12

> All the versions I've seen have him quitting college, not being kicked out.


This one says he was kicked out:

1816423-secret_origins__1986_2nd_series__13.jpg

----------


## phonogram12

> I think the "reading ability" thing is kind of dumb. It felt like Higgins took it from Cass and gave it to Dick anyway.  Never felt natural to me. So I am fine if that stays forgotten in the old Nightwing run. I've never liked it when writers have to throw in some contrived reason to explain why someone beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat.


It made sense for Cass, though, seeing as it was literally the only form of communication she knew. But yeah, for Dick it literally did feel tacked on and for no particularly good reason.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> This one says he was kicked out:
> 
> 1816423-secret_origins__1986_2nd_series__13.jpg


I have that one and I just had a look, it just says he was doing badly 'wasnt setting the academic world on fire' and later says he 'left college'. Doesn't explicitly say kicked out - which would contradict the titans issue (can't remember if it was NTT or not) where it said he quit after a semester. 

That said, not being a classroom academic doesn't make you unintelligent. Though he later sailed through Police academy despite missing half of it. (Though I think comparing he two eras is a bit risky even though it was pre reboot.)

----------


## phonogram12

> I have that one and I just had a look, it just says he was doing badly 'wasnt setting the academic world on fire' and later says he 'left college'. Doesn't explicitly say kicked out - which would contradict the titans issue (can't remember if it was NTT or not) where it said he quit after a semester. 
> 
> That said, not being a classroom academic doesn't make you unintelligent. Though he later sailed through Police academy despite missing half of it. (Though I think comparing he two eras is a bit risky even though it was pre reboot.)


Oh, I never meant he was unintelligent. I don't think that by a longshot. I just don't think one has to be a genius to be considered intelligent, either.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> Oh, I never meant he was unintelligent. I don't think that by a longshot. I just don't think one has to be a genius to be considered intelligent, either.


That's true, not calling someone a genius is almost an insult in comic worlds lol. 

Totally OT but I had forgotten how old comics smell. Cough!

----------


## Dzetoun

> Um ya, no. That would be awful. Having a battle computer in his head for a day might make for a interesting issue, but outside of that the character would become unusable.


Chuckle.  If Damian's superpowers stick (which, granted, is a big if) then lots of adjustments are going to have to be made in the BatVerse in any case.  Might as well get everyone in on the fun!  Besides, they've been able to use a living god (Wonder Woman), and someone who can literally move faster than humans can think (Barry Allen), and someone more powerful than both of them put together (Superman), so I don't think there is any such thing as an unusable character in the DCU.

By the way, I wouldn't bet any money on them actually doing those things with Dick.  But I wouldn't be shocked if they did.




> He's also always been more off an improvisational thinker than the others. Bruce and Tim always go in with a plan. Barb has her photographic memory. Jason and Damian don't do much thinking in the first place. Dick, however, knows how to read the situation, react, and adapt on the fly.


That is a good point.  They've actually touched on it, with regard to Dick and Midnighter, even (the "you fight like jazz" comment).

----------


## The World

I've never read the Authority but if Dick doesn't have the power or skill to beat Midnighter he shouldn't. I'm just not a fan of characters being randomly buffed or degraded to fit the plot. That having been said the series doesn't seem to above showing Dick fail so we'll see.




> I think the "reading ability" thing is kind of dumb. It felt like Higgins took it from Cass and gave it to Dick anyway.  Never felt natural to me. So I am fine if that stays forgotten in the old Nightwing run. I've never liked it when writers have to throw in some contrived reason to explain why someone beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat.
> 
> If they want Dick to fight and beat someone like Midnighter then give Dick similar enhancements to him and put them on more of an even footing. No need to lower Midnighter's character. I honestly think Dick would be a better and more interesting character with them.


They've already referenced his ability to read people in Grayson. 

The idea of Dick getting enhanced intrigues me though. Dick gets embarrassed by the guy in a fight and looks to find a way to bridge the gap.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Him looking for enhancements seems more like a Jason move, though. I always liked the concept of the different Robins acquiring their skills through different means. Dick learns from his experiences. Jason goes for shortcuts (guns, Venom, etc). Tim is a student. Damian was born and bred for combat. But I guess by now the dichotomy has been blurred.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Is Damian's return confirmed then?

----------


## OversizedLoad

Seeley on Midnighter & Midnighter vs Dick. Important bit runs from 4:25 - 5:38

http://youtu.be/aff_ss1TzOA?t=4m25s

----------


## Dzetoun

> Is Damian's return confirmed then?


As confirmed as it's likely to get until issues actually hit the stands.  Same way with his apparent superpowers.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Fantastic.  :Smile: 

Well, about the coming back. Superpowers less great.

----------


## colossus34

Can someone explain what is so ridiculous about Grayson giving Midnighter a good old fashioned butt kicking? Batman doles it out to metas, gods, aliens and demons on weekly basis and no one bats an eye. Is Dick reputation that far down the crapper that no one can imagine a scenario where the only other man to grace the Bat Cowl is equally good at kicking butt? I want Grayson to look competent for once in this run.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Can someone explain what is so ridiculous about Grayson giving Midnighter a good old fashioned butt kicking? Batman doles it out to metas, gods, aliens and demons on weekly basis and no one bats an eye. Is Dick reputation that far down the crapper that no one can imagine a scenario where the only other man to grace the Bat Cowl is equally good at kicking butt? I want Grayson to look competent for once in this run.


Nothing ridiculous, really.  I think there is a knee jerk reaction against the idea of Dick beating Midnighter in a straight-up slugout.  But the same could be said about Batman trading punches with anyone else in the League. He wins because he doesn't straight-up brawl with them, and neither will Dick with Midnighter.  Seeley said as much in his video interview - something to the effect of Midnighter being powered but Dick being smarter.  The solicit does say they go toe-to-toe, but that's probably as trustworthy as most solicit text.

----------


## Kid A

> Nothing ridiculous, really.  I think there is a knee jerk reaction against the idea of Dick beating Midnighter in a straight-up slugout.  But the same could be said about Batman trading punches with anyone else in the League. He wins because he doesn't straight-up brawl with them, and neither will Dick with Midnighter.  Seeley said as much in his video interview - something to the effect of Midnighter being powered but Dick being smarter.  The solicit does say they go toe-to-toe, but that's probably as trustworthy as most solicit text.


God no, Midnighter's abilities aren't just physical.  Mentally, he's meant to be an exaggeration of Batgod.  Similar to how Batman became infamous for being able to prep for anything and outsmart superheroes and supervillains, Midnighter does that to a ridiculous level with his battle computer.  

So no, Dick shouldn't stand a chance.  Also, for some reason people seem to distort and exaggerate what actually happens when Batman goes up against superpowered characters.  Even with all the prep in the world, he doesn't fare that well unless he's really lucky.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

In the latest issue, Batman was able to climb into a special Bat armor despite being ambushed in his home by Wonder Woman, evade her, and defeat Flash and Aquaman.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Can someone explain what is so ridiculous about Grayson giving Midnighter a good old fashioned butt kicking? Batman doles it out to metas, gods, aliens and demons on weekly basis and no one bats an eye. Is Dick reputation that far down the crapper that no one can imagine a scenario where the only other man to grace the Bat Cowl is equally good at kicking butt? I want Grayson to look competent for once in this run.


Because Midnighter would equally trash Batman.

EDIT: If you don't actually know anything about the character or how his powers work, you can kinda figure all these people talking here like they've read his comics probably do know whether Dick could handle him or not.

----------


## Kid A

> In the latest issue, Batman was able to climb into a special Bat armor despite being ambushed in his home by Wonder Woman, evade her, and defeat Flash and Aquaman.


Didn't know Bruce Timm started writing comics.

----------


## HLOTS

Batman is a billion dollar property. They'll always have him win no matter how impossible the odds are.

----------


## Kid A

Batman is a billion dollar property because there are endless stories being told with him for several decades across several mediums.  When you have such a high volume of stories, it's going to include stories where he doesn't necessarily win.

----------


## oasis1313

> Batman is a billion dollar property because there are endless stories being told with him for several decades across several mediums.  When you have such a high volume of stories, it's going to include stories where he doesn't necessarily win.


Now with the New 52, DC has the opportunity to dredge up all those old stories across all those decades and RE-TELL them for billions more.  Crime DOES pay.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Batman is a billion dollar property. They'll always have him win no matter how impossible the odds are.


And Dick will beat Midnighter, one way or the other - or more likely make him an ally.  All you have to do to know *that* is look at whose name is on the cover.

----------


## OWL45

> And Dick will beat Midnighter, one way or the other - or more likely make him an ally.  All you have to do to know *that* is look at whose name is on the cover.


I'll be the one to say it. If Dick has a poor showing in this fight it will leave a very sour taste in my mouth. It grow tired if seeing him get beaten down all the time. Which was nearly the whole Nightwing under Higgins. The guy was trained by Batman and was Batman they need to show it.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'll be the one to say it. If Dick has a poor showing in this fight it will leave a very sour taste in my mouth. It grow tired if seeing him get beaten down all the time. Which was nearly the whole Nightwing under Higgins. The guy was trained by Batman and was Batman they need to show it.


Amen.  It's DICK GRAYSON'S book; he should always win. I want to see Dick kick Midnighter all the way back to Image Comics.  It'd be interesting, too, though, if they did become colleagues at a later point, though.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I'll be the one to say it. If Dick has a poor showing in this fight it will leave a very sour taste in my mouth. It grow tired if seeing him get beaten down all the time. Which was nearly the whole Nightwing under Higgins. The guy was trained by Batman and was Batman they need to show it.


I strongly suspect Seeley and King understand that.  What was it Seeley said, they would "never do disservice" to their readers?  They had Dick beat Batman, after all, who is a much more important foe in the DC ecology than Midnighter will ever be.

----------


## Godlike13

> Chuckle.  If Damian's superpowers stick (which, granted, is a big if) then lots of adjustments are going to have to be made in the BatVerse in any case.  Might as well get everyone in on the fun!  Besides, they've been able to use a living god (Wonder Woman), and someone who can literally move faster than humans can think (Barry Allen), and someone more powerful than both of them put together (Superman), so I don't think there is any such thing as an unusable character in the DCU.
> 
> By the way, I wouldn't bet any money on them actually doing those things with Dick.  But I wouldn't be shocked if they did.


He'd become too powerful for his setting. It would limit the character and his use severely, because he would break the power scale of his setting. He'd be too powerful for the Batverse, but still not godly powerful like WW, the Flash, or Superman. He'd become like Cass Cain.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Because Midnighter would equally trash Batman.


LOL.  No, he wouldn't.  Batman is far, far too important a figure in the DCU to be trashed by the likes of Midnighter, or even all of Stormwatch, come to that. It's politically and economically impossible.  It's as politically impossible as Midnighter trashing Dick in his own book.

----------


## Dzetoun

> He'd become too powerful for his setting. It would limit the character and his use severely, because he would break the power scale of his setting. He'd be too powerful for the Batverse, but still not godly powerful like WW, the Flash, or Superman. He'd become like Cass Cain.


And yet many found Cass a perfectly good character, much admired and sorely missed.  I never cared for myself, as I found her personality uninteresting.  But, there are plenty who had no problem at all with her abilities.  As I suspect would be the case with Damian, or Dick, or anyone else in the BatVerse.  It would depend on good writers, of course.  But then, everything does.

----------


## Kid A

> LOL.  No, he wouldn't.  Batman is far, far too important a figure in the DCU to be trashed by the likes of Midnighter, or even all of Stormwatch, come to that. It's politically and economically impossible.  It's as politically impossible as Midnighter trashing Dick in his own book.


I don't think his logic has ever actually applied in DC books.  When Batman gets the better of someone more powerful than himself, it's because the writer is a Batman fanboy - see Timm, Miller, etc.  Not because Batman is "too important" to some nebulous hierarchal "ecology" of superhero funny books that you keep alluding to.  I mean, Batman is still prone to getting the occasional beatdown from a random thug in his low level street adventure stories.  




> But, there are plenty who had no problem at all with her abilities.  .


Obviously the people who run DC weren't among those people, which is what I think his point was.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

This book can't come out fast enough  :Frown:

----------


## LoneNecromancer

Do the same people who use the reasoning that Dick/Bruce can beat Midnighter because they're much bigger characters likewise believe Tim Drake can take Captain Atom?




> Amen.  It's DICK GRAYSON'S book; *he should always win*. I want to see Dick kick Midnighter all the way back to Image Comics.  It'd be interesting, too, though, if they did become colleagues at a later point, though.


Well s**t there goes any reasonable drama or conflict. Even Batman gets his arse kicked in his own books. 



> I strongly suspect Seeley and King understand that.  What was it Seeley said, they would "never do disservice" to their readers?  They had Dick beat Batman, after all, who is a much more important foe in the DC ecology than Midnighter will ever be.


If you watch the interview, it seems Seeley knows Midnighter would win easily. Even when he talked about extending the fight from before, the most he said Dick could do was "evade" and then when he talks about the difficulty of the actual fight, it seems to sound like the difficulty comes in trying to think of a way Dick could win/draw in a way that didn't gimp Midnighter.

----------


## Dzetoun

> If you watch the interview, it seems Seeley knows Midnighter would win easily. Even when he talked about extending the fight from before, the most he said Dick could do was "evade" and then when he talks about the difficulty of the actual fight, it seems to sound like the difficulty comes in trying to think of a way Dick could win/draw in a way that didn't gimp Midnighter.


Sure.  And it sounds like finding such a way is exactly what he did.  Because at the end of the day that's his job, and he's far too experienced a professional not to know it.  It might amount to luck, of course, as is the way Batman sometimes beats powerful foes as Kid A suggests.  Nothing wrong with fickle fortune as a plot device.  It might amount to avoidance. It might involve other characters intervening. It might even involve Dick losing one day to win another, as Batman and Bane (although they don't really have time and space for back breaking).  But in the end Dick will win either outright or by eventually turning Midnighter into an ally.  It is as inevitable as monthly sales reports and as necessary as a paycheck.

----------


## Godlike13

I just got to chime in here real quick. Now i trust that Seeley and King will do both characters justice, like they did with the Dick/Bruce fight, but if u think it being Dick's book will save him from getting beat up by another character than i just have to ask, have u read many Nightwing comics? Thats crap happened all the time. Hell they even brought in guest writers to do it. Honestly though, as frustrating as that bullcrap is. I don't wanna see Dick karate chopping Midnighter in the back of the neck either. Crap like that ruins characters.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Do the same people who use the reasoning that Dick/Bruce can beat Midnighter because they're much bigger characters likewise believe Tim Drake can take Captain Atom?


Captain Atom doesn't appear anymore because he's way too powerful. For his sake Midnighter really shouldn't be on quite that level.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Captain Atom doesn't appear anymore because he's way too powerful. For his sake Midnighter really shouldn't be on quite that level.


For his sake?

Yeah, I'd rather have no Midnighter than seeing him appear as a weakened punching bag to make other heroes seem better by comparison.

----------


## The World

Bruce's ability to beat everyone because he brings in a lot of money for the company isn't a good thing guys. We shouldn't be wanting Dick to turn into fanfic character Bruce has become. Seriously, I'd rather we not start having him pull nonsense like what went down in the most recent Bruce vs The League confrontation.

----------


## madrox83

I spoke to Seeley and King at NYCC and from that and podcasts it seems like they really want to do the character justice. I could see Grayson losing to Midnighter. Also the writers are actively trying to take risks with the character like the coding for the Future's End issue. Looking forward to more.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> For his sake?
> 
> Yeah, I'd rather have no Midnighter than seeing him appear as a weakened punching bag to make other heroes seem better by comparison.


He doesn't need to be a weakened punching bag, he doesn't even need to lose. But it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion because Midnighter is utterly infallible. If that's the world DC is now then Batman and Green Arrow should never be part of the Justice League, Lex Luthor should at no point be considered Superman's nemesis, Flash shouldn't even have any personal villains beyond various evil users of the Speed Force and so on.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I just got to chime in here real quick. Now i trust that Seeley and King will do both characters justice, like they did with the Dick/Bruce fight, but if u think it being Dick's book will save him from getting beat up by another character than i just have to ask, have u read many Nightwing comics? Thats crap happened all the time. Hell they even brought in guest writers to do it. Honestly though, as frustrating as that bullcrap is. I don't wanna see Dick karate chopping Midnighter in the back of the neck either. Crap like that ruins characters.


True.  Of course, the people who wrote that aren't writing Nightwing/Grayson any more, are they?  Although, if you want to say it's the editors and they are still there, fair enough.

----------


## colossus34

> Bruce's ability to beat everyone because he brings in a lot of money for the company isn't a good thing guys. We shouldn't be wanting Dick to turn into fanfic character Bruce has become. Seriously, I'd rather we not start having him pull nonsense like what went down in the most recent Bruce vs The League confrontation.


A "fanfic" character? Batman is far from a fanfic character. He's an established character whose gained a global empire because he's relateable, kick ass and supremely competent(maybe the most competent character in all of DC). Grayson fans should wish he was so lucky. Nightwing was one of the most incompetent characters in DC and was jobbing more than a wrestler on WWE every weak for years in his own comics. It would take more than beating up Midknighter to boost his reputation to anywhere near where Batman's is

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I would like if in Addition to Grayson that they have a Dynamic Duo book between him and Bruce cause I feel at this point it has been way to long since they had a team book

----------


## oasis1313

> A "fanfic" character? Batman is far from a fanfic character. He's an established character whose gained a global empire because he's relateable, kick ass and supremely competent(maybe the most competent character in all of DC). Grayson fans should wish he was so lucky. Nightwing was one of the most incompetent characters in DC and was jobbing more than a wrestler on WWE every weak for years in his own comics. It would take more than beating up Midknighter to boost his reputation to anywhere near where Batman's is


That's where getting a creative team who WANT to make him look good comes in.  Like Jessica Rabbit said, "I'm not bad--I'm just drawn that way."

----------


## Dzetoun

> I would like if in Addition to Grayson that they have a Dynamic Duo book between him and Bruce cause I feel at this point it has been way to long since they had a team book


I think they need to hold off on that for a while.  Dick needs to grow as his own character independent of Batman.  When they have built a good foundation there will be time for closer cooperation.  Right now there is to much potential to slide back into a "Batman and Robin" dynamic, and that would be regression.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think they need to hold off on that for a while.  Dick needs to grow as his own character independent of Batman.  When they have built a good foundation there will be time for closer cooperation.  Right now there is to much potential to slide back into a "Batman and Robin" dynamic, and that would be regression.


Yeah if you what dick to be in a team up book with a big leaguer but not be sucked back in to batmans world. You could have a grayson & superman book?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Break up the super-couple.

Grayson/Wonder Woman

----------


## brucekent12

> Yeah if you what dick to be in a team up book with a big leaguer but not be sucked back in to batmans world. You could have a grayson & superman book?


Maybe a two parter in Action or Superman, where Dick and Helena have to check out someone in Metropolis, and Supes finds out about it and either helps or tries to stop them from carrying out the mission.

----------


## byrd156

> Break up the super-couple.
> 
> Grayson/Wonder Woman


That would be huge and really weird.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

It would. But I'd read it. :P

----------


## The World

> A "fanfic" character? Batman is far from a fanfic character. He's an established character whose gained a global empire because he's relateable, kick ass and supremely competent(maybe the most competent character in all of DC). Grayson fans should wish he was so lucky. Nightwing was one of the most incompetent characters in DC and was jobbing more than a wrestler on WWE every weak for years in his own comics. It would take more than beating up Midknighter to boost his reputation to anywhere near where Batman's is


No he's a fanfic character, a character who's strongest appeal has become his ability to give the reader a strong sense of self gratification by being able to cling the thinnest rivulets of relatability (I'm a human like you). He has it all handsome, rich, no one to answer to, incredible clout both as Bruce Wayne and as Batman, could bed just about any woman he likes, is an incredible scientist/philanthropist/doctor/ninja/detective/ad nauseam. He gets to both be the only non-powered member on the justice leauge while remaining the most amazing/powerful/smartest/ad nauseam. He reads like some goth kids angry fantasy after being bullied rather than an actual person.

Frankly I have no desire to see that happen to Dick. You can be competent without seeming like a child thought you up.

----------


## Kid A

> No he's a fanfic character, a character who's strongest appeal has become his ability to give the reader a strong sense of self gratification by being able to cling the thinnest rivulets of relatability (I'm a human like you). He has it all handsome, rich, no one to answer to, incredible clout both as Bruce Wayne and as Batman, could bed just about any woman he likes, is an incredible scientist/philanthropist/doctor/ninja/detective/ad nauseam. He gets to both be the only non-powered member on the justice leauge while remaining the most amazing/powerful/smartest/ad nauseam. He reads like some goth kids angry fantasy after being bullied rather than an actual person.
> 
> Frankly I have no desire to see that happen to Dick. You can be competent without seeming like a child thought you up.


Good post.

----------


## Rakiduam

"So, just sayin'... GRAYSON #1 from @DCComics is going to a THIRD printing. Thanks for loving our take on the world's best Richard"
https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...75434345410560

 :Cool:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Clearly, Dan Didio is going to kill off Dick so he can save money not having to print so many copies of Grayson.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Clearly, Dan Didio is going to kill off Dick so he can save money not having to print so many copies of Grayson.


 :Wink: 

10 Characters

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Clearly, Dan Didio is going to kill off Dick so he can save money not having to print so many copies of Grayson.


Thanks for the laugh, man. I really needed it.

----------


## WonderNight

> Break up the super-couple.
> 
> Grayson/Wonder Woman


 I'm sold, now  take my money! oh and both wonder woman and dick need worlds finest partners.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

> Clearly, Dan Didio is going to kill off Dick so he can save money not having to print so many copies of Grayson.


Lolz. That was a winner there. Thank you for that one.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Grayson and Wonder Woman sounds more interesting then Her and Superman,  I feel she would look at hime more as a contemporary since they are on the same team

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I think she's pretty close to Dick in age as well.  Isn't she like 23?

----------


## byrd156

> I think she's pretty close to Dick in age as well.  Isn't she like 23?


Yeah something like that, earlier to mid twenties at least.

----------


## M L A

> I think she's pretty close to Dick in age as well.  Isn't she like 23?


Yeah, she's 23 for some reason.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Did some searching, and yeah, she _is_ 23. Dick and Diana should be fist-bump buddies.

Untitled.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> Did some searching, and yeah, she _is_ 23. Dick and Diana should be fist-bump buddies.
> 
> Untitled.jpg


No that's her sister's job.

----------


## Csjbo08

Well, Dick isn't friends with Donna and Diana never got involved romantically with Bruce in the New 52 so the two main obstacles of them getting together are removed.

However, for the life of me, I cannot fathom the idea of Dick and Diana hooking up, and I have an active imagination.

On another note, while Dick is a secret agent, it wouldn't be the worst idea for him and Steve Trevor to interact a little.

----------


## M L A

> Well, Dick isn't friends with Donna and Diana never got involved romantically with Bruce in the New 52 so the two main obstacles of them getting together are removed.
> 
> However, for the life of me, I cannot fathom the idea of Dick and Diana hooking up, and I have an active imagination.
> 
> On another note, while Dick is a secret agent, *it wouldn't be the worst idea for him and Steve Trevor to interact a little.*


Obviously Dick/Steve is the superior ship.

Anyway I'm really hesitant to want Diana with other heroes, especially bigger ones like Superman and Batman because she ends up being more... "secondary". Not quite the word I think but it just ends up being more about the other than her or both of them.

----------


## Badou

Haha, DC doesn't think Dick is even important enough to be in the same room as Diana in the reboot. Dick has a better shot at dating Batman than Diana. xD

Kidding aside, there is a lot wrong and missing with Dick's character in the reboot but him interacting with Diana isn't high on the priority list. I don't think the two have ever been close anyway. I'd rather see him finally interact with Superman than her to be honest. They havent even spoken to each other yet.

----------


## Claude

> Haha, DC doesn't think Dick is even important enough to be in the same room as Diana in the reboot. Dick has a better shot at dating Batman than Diana. xD
> 
> Kidding aside, there is a lot wrong and missing with Dick's character in the reboot but him interacting with Diana isn't high on the priority list. I don't think the two have ever been close anyway. I'd rather see him finally interact with Superman than her to be honest. They havent even spoken to each other yet.


A guest role in one of the Super Titles would really be proof of intent on their "making Dick an A-Lister" promises. Put him in Johns/Romita Jr's book for an issue or two and we could probably go for _months_ without resorting to the Old Hurts!

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> Haha, DC doesn't think Dick is even important enough to be in the same room as Diana in the reboot. Dick has a better shot at dating Batman than Diana. xD


Right before bed, thanks for that. >.< :P Can't unread...

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I laughed at this

Untitled.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

> Obviously Dick/Steve is the superior ship.
> 
> Anyway I'm really hesitant to want Diana with other heroes, especially bigger ones like Superman and Batman because she ends up being more... "secondary". Not quite the word I think but it just ends up being more about the other than her or both of them.


Well i'm all for dick and diana too have a book together? Dick is a big character but not too big like superman or batman that would overshadow her and he is big enough that he would matter not like steve trever. Both wonder woman and grayson are equals

Plus the superman/wonder wonder book feels more like a superman book with wonder wonder guest staring. A wonder woman/grayson book can play on both there worlds, dick battling with gods (like the true TITAN he is) and ambassador diana prince leaguer of the amazons with her own behind the scenes spy team. Then have a cool dynamic of the most down to earth little circus boy with the biggest and baddest priness in the dcu. Talk about giving dick a big push also diana need a friend outside of batman and superman.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Man, I was joking when I suggested Grayson/WW.

----------


## Godlike13

What about Zatanna?

----------


## risewing

Idea: all subsequent "Grayson" covers done by David Aja or accompanied by Aja variant. His design sensibility is too perfect for Grayson for this not to happen IMO. I like Janin on interiors though.

----------


## WonderNight

> What about Zatanna?


 hell yeah dick and zatanna are one of my favorite pairing dick and power girl being the other, so yes to dick and zatanna SPYMAGIC baby!!!

----------


## R0NIN

> break up the super-couple.
> 
> Grayson/wonder woman


yes!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## WonderNight

> yes!!!!!!!!!!


Yes yes!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> hell yeah dick and zatanna are one of favorite pairing dick and power girl being the other, so yes to dick and zatanna SPYMAGIC baby!!!


Did you get your favorite pairings from this: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/02...e-super-heroes

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Since there both performers it would make a nice tandem

----------


## byrd156

> Since there both performers it would make a nice tandem


Yeah then they could reopen Haly's circus and perform in it.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Too bad about the whole "circus has burned down to the ground, and Richard Grayson is a dead criminal vigilante" bit.

----------


## byrd156

> Too bad about the whole "circus has burned down to the ground, and Richard Grayson is a dead criminal vigilante" bit.


Yeah but that will probably be fixed in a couple of years.

----------


## WonderNight

> Did you get your favorite pairings from this: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/02...e-super-heroes


Yes!!! Yes it was a dream come true lol. I would love to have these three in a book together as there own big 3. Also when dick takes over spyral he and zatanna could start a new haly's circus in a new las vages/south beach style bludhaven that karen starr can fund that she performers at and have it be dick's new spyral base/front and karen take care of the business side of things. There you have it new young, fun, sexy, down to earth but powerful enough to hang with the trinity of there own.

Three character with diverse power set (more than the trinity themselfs) and skills. Three characters the could help each others name's and band grow by flushing each others world out .(see above) 

Now boom we have a dick grayson that is know longer just a bat or titans character but his own character with his own city, his own world, his own friends that has noting  to do with batman or the titans, and his own big 3 with two of dc's biggest and most powerful female heros. Also it would be cool see a big 3 with two female's and male has too fit in.

----------


## byrd156

> Yes!!! Yes it was a dream come true lol. I would love to have these three in a book together as there own big 3. Also when dick takes over spyral he and zatanna could start a new haly's circus in a new las vages/south beach style bludhaven that karen starr can fund that she performers at and have it be dick's new spyral base/front and karen take care of the business side of things. There you have it new young, fun, sexy, down to earth but powerful enough to hang with the trinity of there own.
> 
> Three character with diverse power set (more than the trinity themselfs) and skills. Three characters the could help each others name's and band grow by flushing each others world out .(see above) 
> 
> Now boom we have a dick grayson that is know longer just a bat or titans character but his own character with his own city, his own world, his own friends that has noting  to do with batman or the titans, and his own big 3 with two of dc's biggest and most powerful female heros. Also it would be cool see a big 3 with two female's and male has too fit in.


That's actually a pretty good idea but having only three heroes would probably get compared to RHATO a lot. I would throw in maybe Wally (if he could not be 12) or Garth (who could fit into the whole south beach idea you had)

----------


## oasis1313

> That's actually a pretty good idea but having only three heroes would probably get compared to RHATO a lot. I would throw in maybe Wally (if he could not be 12) or Garth (who could fit into the whole south beach idea you had)


I like it.  You could toss in some more ladies and called the book Grayson's Harem.

----------


## byrd156

> I like it.  You could toss in some more ladies and called the book Grayson's Harem.


It should probably take place in Coast City rather than Bludhaven, I can't picture Bludhaven as a sunny, happy place.

----------


## oasis1313

> It should probably take place in Coast City rather than Bludhaven, I can't picture Bludhaven as a sunny, happy place.


A sunny, happy city would be nice.  I'm tired of Dick getting dragged down by his dark, dingy environment.  One thing I like about the spy stories is that he gets to travel (reconnect with his gypsy roots) and even go out in the daylight.

----------


## WonderNight

> Did you get your favorite pairings from this: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2013/02...e-super-heroes


Well the three of them just so happen to be my three favorite characters, that just brings it home. Also I think the dynamic between those three would be amazing (see power girl #17 and power girl #23) and they need to to start being around characters that can build there own universe together the way dc's big 6 have and not spin time with characters that drag them down.

----------


## WonderNight

> A sunny, happy city would be nice.  I'm tired of Dick getting dragged down by his dark, dingy environment.  One thing I like about the spy stories is that he gets to travel (reconnect with his gypsy roots) and even go out in the daylight.


Yeah dick needs a city that reflects his personality not batman's. The best citys in dc reflect its character personality like batman with gotham-dark, grim, and grounded or superman with metropolis-perfection, the pinnacle. Dick should have a city that is bright, fun, and alive by day and neon, sexy, and cool by night.

Funny how that also sounds like the perfect city for zatanna (she is a performer) to be in also and you can throw vixen in it too (she is a model) and this new city can be the entertainment city of the dcu with power girl handling the business side of the new haly's circus, ran by grayson, main draw be zatanna, vixen part time fashion shows and a full time grayson lead spyral base.

Man the city could be so many things to. It could be built on top of a tape of hell mouth that has alot of mystical being drawn to it to enrich there power. perfect for zatanna!
it could have low level meta-humans threats perfect for vixen! It could have high level meta-human and powerful alians threats perfect for power girl! Also it could be a part time home for cybrog. Who needs a home outside of the watchtower and a life outside of the league, he can also be there connection to the main justice league. You could even have bruce the playboy and clark the reporter stop by sometimes.

This would be a great place were dick and those character can grow and help each others worlds grow and have a universe all there own! here they would not have to fit into dc's big 6's worlds or a justice league or a titans world. They would have there own.

Just think of it this could be dc's verison of "friends the show" a young baddass superhero verison of it. Just think a group of young sexy fun 20's somethings superhero friends in a south beach/las vages city be awesome? Thats not gold thats PLATINUM!!!

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Thag sounds great, it should have a wolf of wall street type of feel except it is more superhero stuff than wall street scams

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah dick needs a city that reflects his personality not batman's. The best citys in dc reflect its character personality like batman with gotham-dark, grim, and grounded or superman with metropolis-perfection, the pinnacle. Dick should have a city that is bright, fun, and alive by day and neon, sexy, and cool by night.
> 
> Funny how that also sounds like the perfect city for zatanna (she is a performer) to be in also and you can throw vixen in it too (she is a model) and this new city can be the entertainment city of the dcu with power girl handling the business side of the new haly's circus, ran by grayson, main draw be zatanna, vixen part time fashion shows and a full time grayson lead spyral base.
> 
> Man the city could be so many things to. It could be built on top of a tape of hell mouth that has alot of mystical being drawn to it to enrich there power. perfect for zatanna!
> it could have low level meta-humans threats perfect for vixen! It could have high level meta-human and powerful alians threats perfect for power girl! Also it could be a part time home for cybrog. Who needs a home outside of the watchtower and a life outside of the league, he can also be there connection to the main justice league. You could even have bruce the playboy and clark the reporter stop by sometimes.
> 
> This would be a great place were dick and those character can grow and help each others worlds grow and have a universe all there own! here they would not have to fit into dc's big 6's worlds or a justice league or a titans world. They would have there own.
> 
> Just think of it this could be dc's verison of "friends the show" a young baddass superhero verison of it. Just think a group of young sexy fun 20's somethings superhero friends in a south beach/las vages city be awesome? Thats not gold thats PLATINUM!!!


The main draw would be Zatanna and not THE Flying Grayson?

----------


## WonderNight

> The main draw would be Zatanna and not THE Flying Grayson?


Well somebody would need to run the circus. This way zatanna could be the main attraction week to week and dick is the special attraction once a month.

----------


## byrd156

> Well somebody would need to run the circus. This way zatanna could be the main attraction week to week and dick is the special attraction once a month.


Dick could do both.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Are you just hoping that DC makes Dick into an even bigger manwhore? 

I have no idea why I'm asking this.

----------


## WonderNight

> Are you just hoping that DC makes Dick into an even bigger manwhore? 
> 
> I have no idea why I'm asking this.


No not at all! I like a dick grayson that takes relationships serious and that is not a manwhore. grayson just needs new friends ones that are more than bat or titans. I never said dick needs to sleep with any of the girls that i would like to see him interact and be friends with. But i would not mind if he dates power girl or zatanna lol!

Its that really love character like zatanna, power girl, cybrog, vixen and wally west also grayson being my favorite. They are all  upper b-listers with worlds of potential to become a-lister but on there own they dont get the push they need (like dick just got with grayson) but together they may get one. Also lets be real the titan brand (at least in the comic) is a shell of its self. Dick need too go the next level, one that is beyond just a bat-character or just a titans-character.

DC is never going to let dick be a true leaguer just a sub/backup if that because dc want there big 6 too the face of the league. Grayson with those characters above can be a new fresh team, let face it the NTT is gone and dick should be past it just like his relationship with babs.

----------


## AgentWingNut

2015 will be the 75th Anniversary of Dick Grayson.  I hope DC has something special planned for the original Robin and all the other Robins that followed.

Was anyone else disappointed when the new Earth 2 series didn't include the adult Dick Grayson/Robin from Pre-Crisis continuity?   Especially when it seemed like it was setup after the death of Earth 2 Batman in issue #1.   That would have been sooooo great.

----------


## WonderNight

Im cool with dick having the anniversary but way the others

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I think Grayson could do well in a Cali/Vegas type of city running spyral and protecting the city. I feel that writers need to downgrade him sometimes to make sure he is B-list The way it should be is he was trained/partnered with Batman as a 8 year old circus acrobat/wunderkind to the point he is seen as a equal/heir to Batman instead of having to do missions for people he seeks out his own cases

----------


## Claude

Damain is back next year - a miniseries with Dick, Damian, Tim and Jason operating together would be a nice little 75th thing.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Damain is back next year - a miniseries with Dick, Damian, Tim and Jason operating together would be a nice little 75th thing.


Not really. Tim and Jason have Dick's life, let him keep his birthday at least.

----------


## Claude

> Not really. Tim and Jason have Dick's life, let him keep his birthday at least.


Tim was Robin for _twenty years_, and Damian is the current Robin. They have a place in a 75th Anniversary Of Robin. In much the same way that you'd expect a Green Lantern anniversary celebration to feature more than one GL.


Although it would, I'll admit, be inconsistent with those lovely "75th Anniversary Of Jay Garrick" covers they're planning on running.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Damain is back next year - a miniseries with Dick, Damian, Tim and Jason operating together would be a nice little 75th thing.


Maybe some sort of "Return of Grayson" crossover arc where Dick gets done one-on-one time with each of the family.

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe some sort of "Return of Grayson" crossover arc where Dick gets done one-on-one time with each of the family.


That would be nice, Dick needs to get the whole identity reveal and being "dead" thing fixed and it should be fixed on his 75th anniversary.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Tim was Robin for _twenty years_, and Damian is the current Robin. They have a place in a 75th Anniversary Of Robin. In much the same way that you'd expect a Green Lantern anniversary celebration to feature more than one GL.
> 
> 
> Although it would, I'll admit, be inconsistent with those lovely "75th Anniversary Of Jay Garrick" covers they're planning on running.


It is the 75th Anniversary Of Dick Grayson, just like is Jay Garrick's. If you want to celebrate Jason and Tim wait until their anniversary, if you want to get tecnicall even Bruce was Robin once for two minute, and Helena why not celebrate two if is only about the mantle and not the character.

This thing of pushing Tim and Jason and Damian into Dick's anniversary only reinforce the idea that they are all the same character so why have 4 of them?




> Maybe some sort of "Return of Grayson" crossover arc where Dick gets done one-on-one time with each of the family.


The same family that doesn't care he is dead? What for?

----------


## HLOTS

> Tim was Robin for _twenty years_, and Damian is the current Robin. They have a place in a 75th Anniversary Of Robin. In much the same way that you'd expect a Green Lantern anniversary celebration to feature more than one GL.
> 
> 
> Although it would, I'll admit, be inconsistent with those lovely "75th Anniversary Of Jay Garrick" covers they're planning on running.



Exactly. DC is celebrating the Robin mantle. Damian is the current Robin and Tim the most successful one. It's just as much their anniversary.

----------


## byrd156

> Exactly. DC is celebrating the Robin mantle. Damian is the current Robin and Tim the most successful one. It's just as much their anniversary.


Tim as the most successful Robin is debatable. As for celebrating the mantle, I think it's the wrong way to go.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Tim was Robin for _twenty years_, and Damian is the current Robin. They have a place in a 75th Anniversary Of Robin. In much the same way that you'd expect a Green Lantern anniversary celebration to feature more than one GL.
> 
> 
> Although it would, I'll admit, be inconsistent with those lovely "75th Anniversary Of Jay Garrick" covers they're planning on running.





> Exactly. DC is celebrating the Robin mantle. Damian is the current Robin and Tim the most successful one. It's just as much their anniversary.


How is Tim the most succeful Robin? His only lasting archivement was Dick's first,  The Teen Titans. In the new 52 he no even was Robin. 

If the DC was celebrating mantles then Dick and Jean Paul Valley should have been included in Batman's anniversary and Wally (that was the Flash for over 30 years) should have been included in The Flash celebration.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They celebrated Jay Garick's anniversary with most well-known Flash, Barry Allen.  It wouldn't surprise me if DC wanted use Dick's anniversary to throw some love to Damian and Tim as well.

----------


## Rakiduam

> They celebrated Jay Garick's anniversary with most well-known Flash, Barry Allen.  It wouldn't surprise me if DC wanted use Dick's anniversary to throw some love to Damian and Tim as well.


Wait. How did they celebrate Jay Garick again?

And I would argue that the most well known Flash is Wally.

They are not celebrating the charactesr they are marketing whoever they are selling.

----------


## byrd156

> Wait. How did they celebrate Jay Garick again?


I don't think they did.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They're celebrating Flash's 75th by putting Barry Allen on a bunch of variant covers.

----------


## Rakiduam

> They're celebrating Flash's 75th by putting Barry Allen on a bunch of variant covers.


Then they are celebrating Barry. Happy Wednesday Barry.

----------


## Claude

> Maybe some sort of "Return of Grayson" crossover arc where Dick gets done one-on-one time with each of the family.


Dick Grayson: The Road Home?  :Big Grin:  I could get behind that!




> That would be nice, Dick needs to get the whole identity reveal and being "dead" thing fixed and it should be fixed on his 75th anniversary.


Agreed.




> It is the 75th Anniversary Of Dick Grayson,


It's the 75th Anniversary of Robin. That's what it will say on the covers, if they do them, and that's what the press will be reporting. It makes sense to celebrate the guy who was Robin for twenty years and held down the only "Robin" solo title for more than a hundred issues as well as the guy who hasn't gone by that name for thirty years - and who hasn't been a "present day" Robin in either this continuity or the last!

By all means, give Dick a big push next year too. I think they will, and I think they should. But if they're calling it a "Robin Anniversary", then it's only right for the others who've spent decades being associated with the role to be involed as well.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Right, it would make sense to give the others (Tim and Damian) a bit of the spotlight, since those two are heavily associated with the Robin as well. But unlike with Jay Garrick, Dick Grayson IS the most well-known name to hold the Robin mantle. And yes, Dick still IS the most popular of the Robins today. He's the only one with a solo book, and the only one who can star in a solo book with only his last name (well, other than Damian) as a title and sell 80K copies in the first month.

----------


## Rakiduam

> It's the 75th Anniversary of Robin. That's what it will say on the covers, if they do them, and that's what the press will be reporting. It makes sense to celebrate the guy who was Robin for twenty years and held down the only "Robin" solo title for more than a hundred issues as well as the guy who hasn't gone by that name for thirty years - and who hasn't been a "present day" Robin in either this continuity or the last!
> 
> By all means, give Dick a big push next year too. I think they will, and I think they should. But if they're calling it a "Robin Anniversary", then it's only right for the others who've spent decades being associated with the role to be involed as well.


They are not going to give Dick a push, not with the current editorial team.

And is irrelevant that they are calling it a "Robin Anniversary", they called it a "Flash Anniversary", did you see Wally represented in any way or what is worse did you see Jay? It was Jay anniversary and it was Wally who held down the Flash title for years and introduced many of the principal concepts that make The Flash today.

Tim hasn't been a "present day" Robin for a while either, on the other hand Dick has laways had some sort of prcence; He was BATS's Robin, he was Youg Justice Robin, Teen Titans Go robin, Robin Year One.

Dick has been Robin through decades and he is the one that was created and introduced 75 years ago.

----------


## Godlike13

These Anniversaries are just marketing campigns. So celebrate who they're currently marketing. I wouldnt expect anything big though. Maybe some covers, and Batman and Robin and Grayson might do special issues.

----------


## The World

Why are you guys so sensitive about Dick sharing the 75th anniversary with the other robins. Do you think Dick is going to suffer because of it or be lesser for it? It's not a big deal.

----------


## WonderNight

> Why are you guys so sensitive about Dick sharing the 75th anniversary with the other robins. Do you think Dick is going to suffer because of it or be lesser for it? It's not a big deal.


Its not a big deal. But can just have something that is just his. Because i wonder how batman fans would feel bruce had to share the batman anniversary with other characters who were once batman for a little. Also would it ok with wonder wonder fan if she had to share her anniversary with with donna and artemis?

----------


## gwhh

From Grayson 3.  Say it all about Grayson "Abilities"  in the field!

----------


## byrd156

Well it's official Dick is dead, or at least his Batman Beyond version is.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Eh, maybe. It ended on a cliffhanger, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's revived in the next issue.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Then again, Kyle Higgins does have a tendency to be overdramatic.

----------


## M L A

If he is dead, that's the fourth Dick Grayson that's died in under two years. That's if you count Forever Evil, and not counting World's End Dick (let's get real he's not gonna make it). So it could be five dead Dicks by the time World's End is over.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> If he is dead, that's the fourth Dick Grayson that's died in under two years. That's if you count Forever Evil, and not counting World's End Dick (let's get real he's not gonna make it). So it could be five dead Dicks by the time World's End is over.


Five? Wow he is really being a punching bag. What all has he died in, in the past 2 years?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

All I can think of is Injustice.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

I dunno, I got the feeling the FE version did make it. But I hated injustice because seriously - worst death ever. Not reading beyond, what happened? At least he made it to a good age there!

----------


## Dzetoun

> All I can think of is Injustice.


Injustice, Batman Beyond, Forever Evil (if you count that), and Damian, Son of Batman.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I dunno, I got the feeling the FE version did make it. But I hated injustice because seriously - worst death ever. Not reading beyond, what happened? At least he made it to a good age there!


Here's a reddit link with a summary.

http://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comme...poilers_uh_oh/

----------


## Dzetoun

In fairness, though, Forever Evil was a fake, Injustice was dictated by the video game, and Batman Beyond also might not stick.  Given that World's End will likely be undone in the upcoming event, any death of Earth 2 Grayson won't last long, either.  So in terms of death at the hands of DC, only Son of Batman is a clear case at the moment.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

And most people pretend that never existed anyway.

----------


## byrd156

The Injustice death is lame when you look back on it but when you are reading it it's really well done or at least as good it could get with the way he died.

----------


## M L A

Yeah it's Injustice, the Damian mini, Forever Evil (kinda), (maybe) Batman Beyond 2.0, and (most likely) World's End.

Poor Dick.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

From a storytelling standpoint, the Injustice death makes an ounce of sense, as it pretty much spells the point of No return for the conflict between Batman and Superman. It's just that the execution was horribly botched. Dick is pretty much the male female superhero. He gets fridged and sexualized frequently.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Yeah it's Injustice, the Damian mini, Forever Evil (kinda), (maybe) Batman Beyond 2.0, and (most likely) World's End.
> 
> Poor Dick.


Well, except once again three of the five don't count, since they aren't real in story and/or haven't happened and/or are likely to be erased.  And the other two are clearly out-of-continuity Elseworlds stories.

----------


## Dzetoun

> From a storytelling standpoint, the Injustice death makes an ounce of sense, as it pretty much spells the point of No return for the conflict between Batman and Superman. It's just that the execution was horribly botched. Dick is pretty much the male female superhero. He gets fridged and sexualized frequently.


Chuckle.  The second often to great popularity, lately.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

This never gets old.

----------


## byrd156

tumblr_ndp8xbdWTI1tq58n2o1_500.jpg

tumblr_mikdhlMSmE1s5v333o1_500.jpg

tumblr_ndv9wsIENn1rzwyggo1_500.jpg

Just some Dick pics.

----------


## byrd156

nightwing.jpg

tumblr_l85f1cMXwi1qchs9vo1_500.jpg

tumblr_n6s0dldMIy1r0mjx7o1_500.jpg

Kinda bored right now so I'm just uploading a bunch of pictures.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> nightwing.jpg
> 
> tumblr_l85f1cMXwi1qchs9vo1_500.jpg
> 
> tumblr_n6s0dldMIy1r0mjx7o1_500.jpg
> 
> Kinda bored right now so I'm just uploading a bunch of pictures.


That last one, any idea where it's from? Because I've been looking for ages with no luck!

----------


## Godlike13

> That last one, any idea where it's from? Because I've been looking for ages with no luck!


The Brave and the Bold #15

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Thank you! That's been driving me slightly loopy!

----------


## byrd156

> Thank you! That's been driving me slightly loopy!


It's a really good issue, the best scene is when Dick is leading pretty much everyone into battle.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Awww... Dick and Donna bromance.

----------


## byrd156

The last part of Nightwing the Series came out and it was pretty good. The series as a whole has it's problems, every fan film does, but this was just fantastic. I really hope they do a season 2.

The only problems I had with it were some of the effects, (acting I didn't mind, I have seen worse in big movies) and the sets could have looked better.

----------


## WonderNight

Question time? if dick were to start a 5 member team(five seems good to me, not to big and not to small) who would you like too be the other 4 members and why?

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> The last part of Nightwing the Series came out and it was pretty good. The series as a whole has it's problems, every fan film does, but this was just fantastic. I really hope they do a season 2.
> 
> The only problems I had with it were some of the effects, (acting I didn't mind, I have seen worse in big movies) and the sets could have looked better.


Yeah, the final fight was a bit disappointing and I was a little deflated when I realised it wasn't 15 mins at all! But overall I loved it and hope they can do a season 2.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Question time? if dick were to start a 5 member team(five seems good to me, not to big and not to small) who would you like too be the other 4 members and why?


That's not nearly enough detail. Are we talking current continuity? And if so is it set at current time with Dick infiltrating Spyral?

----------


## byrd156

> That's not nearly enough detail. Are we talking current continuity? And if so is it set at current time with Dick infiltrating Spyral?


Just add your own details in, he could be a spy or a hero or whatever.

Personally I would just keep bringing up the Fab Five since they are my top Five favorite heroes but I'll try to change it up. If it's a spy team I would try to stay away from big powers like super strength and things like that but I might let one person on the team with something like that. I would go with Dick, Jesse Quick because every team needs a speedster and Jesse deserves some attention, Garth because why not?, Helena because eh she is already an actual spy, and maybe a version of Argent or Damage.

But as an actual superhero team book I would go Donna Troy, Wally West (that isn't 12), Zatanna, Garth, and maybe a JSA member like the Ray or Hourman. I like this list because they all have very different powers that would look very cool in a fight and they are very different kinds of characters. Though I was thinking maybe there should be two speedsters on a team that would could be at odds with each other but that could get kinda annoying or turn out very lame.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Grayson
Batgirl
Red Robin
Red Hood
Robin

 :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> Grayson
> Batgirl
> Red Robin
> Red Hood
> Robin


I can't see them working with Red Hood on a daily/regular basis. You know with the whole killing people thing.

----------


## brucekent12

Dick, Red Robin and Damian Robin, because not only are they family, but they are part of the Robin family as well, Helena, if she is a double agent as well, or Batgirl, which might help their attraction, and if there is a Crisis, an aged approiate Wally West- not reading Flash but isn't he suppose to be a kid in that?

----------


## byrd156

> Dick, Red Robin and Damian Robin, because not only are they family, but they are part of the Robin family as well, Helena, if she is a double agent as well, or Batgirl, which might help their attraction, and if there is a Crisis, an aged approiate Wally West- not reading Flash but isn't he suppose to be a kid in that?


Well there is that upcoming band aid event that will probably fix a lot of problems with the New 52. (imo the only way to fix it, is get rid of it) It apparently has bottled cities from multiple Earths, here's hoping the actual Titans can come back.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Dick, Helena, Midnighter, Damian, and ...

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Well there is that upcoming band aid event that will probably fix a lot of problems with the New 52. (imo the only way to fix it, is get rid of it) It apparently has bottled cities from multiple Earths, here's hoping the actual Titans can come back.


It's a two month placeholder whilst they pack up and move.

----------


## Badou

Well given the characters or heroes Dick has interacted with or spoken to in the reboot the only ones he could be on a team with that he knows would be Batwing, platinum, Midnighter, and umm... I think that is it. Lol

----------


## byrd156

> Well given the characters or heroes Dick has interacted with or spoken to in the reboot the only ones he could be on a team with that he knows would be Batwing, platinum, Midnighter, and umm... I think that is it. Lol


I wonder what Dick and Platinum were talking about.

----------


## byrd156

> It's a two month placeholder whilst they pack up and move.


I don't really know anything about it, I haven't done any research. I've only heard things from word of mouth, like the bottled city thing and it fixing some problems.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Question time? if dick were to start a 5 member team(five seems good to me, not to big and not to small) who would you like too be the other 4 members and why?


5 man espionage team-

Dick forms this team for missions that he doesn't trust Spyral to handle. Inspired by Young Justice, this team is comprised of members from various DCU clandestine organizations.

Agent 37 of Spyral
Artemis of Argus
Miss Martian of SHADE
Jesse Chambers, aka the Liberty Belle of Checkmate
Kaldur of Atlantean Intelligence Agency 


Justice League: Interstellar 

This would allow for some diversification in story types for Dick. This way, its not all espionage.

Booster Gold- pilot
Ted Kord- techie/engineer
Dick Grayson- tactics/functional captain
Donna Troy- powerhouse 
Argent- need an alien and she would be good in a fight.

----------


## oasis1313

> 5 man espionage team-
> 
> Dick forms this team for missions that he doesn't trust Spyral to handle. Inspired by Young Justice, this team is comprised of members from various DCU clandestine organizations.
> 
> Agent 37 of Spyral
> Artemis of Argus
> Miss Martian of SHADE
> Jesse Chambers, aka the Liberty Belle of Checkmate
> Kaldur of Atlantean Intelligence Agency 
> ...


Any of these sound good.  It could be JLI:  Justice League Interstellar.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Justice League Dick (title pending)

----------


## byrd156

> Justice League Dick (title pending)


That would work if they didn't have Justice League Dark taking the JLD abbreviation.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Nice interview with Tom King.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655

----------


## Claude

> Nice interview with Tom King.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655


That is nice - Tom King just seems like such a great guy, with a real love for what he does. I fully admit I was a bit apprehensive about his issues vs Seeley's at the start, but he more than holds his end up!

Interesting to hear that "Robin Dies At Dawn" will factor into upcoming Grayson events, although it's hard to see _how!_ Unless it's via Morrison's use of it. 

Always refreshing to hear about DC being behind the book, and the boost they gave the Annual.


And issues 1-5 being standalone, with 6-8 forming a longer arc based - presumably - around Tiger and Spyral history? Can certainly get behind that.


Still feeling deeply positive about this book - one of the highlights of the month for me.  :Smile:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Just like you said, the series starts with basically seven one and done issues ("Grayson" #1-5 plus the Annual and "Futures End"), all of them centered around the collecting of these Paragon organs. We wanted to focus in the beginning on Dick Grayson as super spy, show how he uses the skills he acquired as Nightwing and Robin in this new environment. It should be noted that these issues are one and dones with consequences. The characters and emotional moments of all of these issues will play out over time. After issue #5 you'll see some longer arcs as we start to explore the larger story of what exactly Spyral is and how it impacts Dick's life and the greater DCU.


I'm REALLY enjoying the one-and-dones so far. It does feel like a TV show, though.




> Because of what Spyral is, it's probably a bad idea to take anything in the series at face value. Also, that was a "Futures End" issue. Remember that this world is not a world that has to be. Both Tim and I want to explore what Helena means to Dick. As we go forward, you'll see their relationship evolve and devolve and evolve again. Really though, for me at least, Dick's true love might be someone else. Answers are right in front of you, I guess.


Oh boy, we know what that means.




> We have a master document that we worked out prior to the first issue, which basically covers Season One. We started with looking at where Dick and Helena were at the beginning of this year and where we wanted them at the end, then we worked from there. Once we had the beats, we fought over who got to write what. We have some plans for a second season arc, and we'll draw up another master document pretty soon, I'd think. Wait, does anyone have Tim's e-mail?
> 
> I should say, the annual was originally meant to focus on Helena's origin as it says in "Previews." But with the huge support for "Grayson," DC is very kindly giving us some extra space for that story. As such, the annual will touch on Helena's origin, but the focus of the issue will be on spies and their lies. It's one of my favorite things I've written.


Pretty neat. I bet Didio himself insisted on more pages. More pages means more chances to kill him off, right?

----------


## K. Jones

> Nice interview with Tom King.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655


Man I really like his work ethic. And his influences. And it's great because if you asked Seeley that same question you'd get a few of the same and then some wildly different influences. This is bombastic comics, but it also seems to mean something. And not just to me, personally.

Those Janin covers. And that Cooke cover.

It's interesting to me to get a sort of schedule for progress. It's entirely spoiler free yet still suggests some things. The mentioned concept of time and space - and I don't mean spacetime, rather how many issues and how much content to place in each set of 20 pages. So we know that they have a 10 issue Season 1 (plus 2 bonus issues) that starts with 5 world-building one-shots setting the scene (and the 2 aforementioned bonuses) and then longer arcs start in the latter half. Then obviously the Season 2 stuff is getting started even now to be planned and worked and developed.

So that means two more issues and the Annual with similar vibes to the last few before we start getting into a bit meatier, more dangerous Spyral details. "Merry Christmas, SPYRAL secrets".

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

So this is how the Dick and Midnighter fight will turn out.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nice interview with Tom King.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655


This was a good interview. Informative, and intriguing.

----------


## Claude

> So this is how the Dick and Midnighter fight will turn out.


_Ha!_

Although I think it would take a hell of a lot to make Dick uncomfortable.  :Big Grin: 

I'd also missed until it was quoted upthread that King talks about the "wider DCU" stuff kicking in after the one-shots, which should make some people very happy.




> Oh boy, we know what that means.


Dick/Bruce confirmed.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Great interview. I'm very intrigued by several things he said here especially about the support the title is getting from DC. 




> Interesting to hear that "Robin Dies At Dawn" will factor into upcoming Grayson events, although it's hard to see _how!_ Unless it's via Morrison's use of it.


Batman 156: "Robin Dies at Dawn" was the first ever comic that I read so I'm interested to see how it will factor into an upcoming issue of _Grayson_.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Damn October for having five Wednesdays this year.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Damn October for having five Wednesdays this year.


I know right.

----------


## Badou

I don't care for the spy direction that much, and I still think that long term Dick being a spy will limit his character (especially as a superhero), but I do really like Tom King. He seems like a great guy that enjoys the character. If only he was telling stories I was more interested in, lol. Still, I hope this series leads to better things for him in the future.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

Dunno if any of this has been posted but there's been some great Grayson fanart.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That is great fan art, I  also love the direction they are going. Since the batlle with the Midnighter is for Grayson # 6 it looke like that will start a new arc and probably team up with midnighter

----------


## K. Jones

Ah, the greater DCU mention. I hope that means more like "the other spy organizations" more than it means "superhero crossover time!"

I'm itching to see your Checkmates, ARGUSes, and so on. Maybe some Kobra? New 52 hasn't done any Kobra yet and "Basilisk" has been god-awfully inferior.

----------


## Claude

> Ah, the greater DCU mention. I hope that means more like "the other spy organizations" more than it means "superhero crossover time!"
> 
> I'm itching to see your Checkmates, ARGUSes, and so on. Maybe some Kobra? New 52 hasn't done any Kobra yet and "Basilisk" has been god-awfully inferior.


I don't know, I'm not sure that inter-agency squabbles are that interesting - and the New 52 versions of ARGUS and Checkmate don't have a particular "grab" for me - whereas I'm more relaxed about the idea of the general Superhero Crossover now that _Grayson_'s bedded in a little.

And it really is way past time that he met Superman.

----------


## K. Jones

> I don't know, I'm not sure that inter-agency squabbles are that interesting - and the New 52 versions of ARGUS and Checkmate don't have a particular "grab" for me - whereas I'm more relaxed about the idea of the general Superhero Crossover now that _Grayson_'s bedded in a little.
> 
> And it really is way past time that he met Superman.


Oh yeah if they come off as squabbles I'd agree they aren't being done right. On the other hand, Spyral's insanely good agents, meaning Dick Grayson, pinching property out from under the noses of the so-called "premiere" DCU intelligence community and making them look like fools? That I'm down for.

It highlights how good Grayson is ... and how dangerous Spyral is. While injecting a bit of the flavor of some classic DCU agencies. Checkmate always had great concepts and even their kind of bronze chesspiece armor was cool. The Global Peace Agency has amazing "No Face" G-Men.

If you want awesome sixties style pop spy adventures, you've got to have stylish uniformed henchmen, right?

----------


## OWL45

> Oh yeah if they come off as squabbles I'd agree they aren't being done right. On the other hand, Spyral's insanely good agents, meaning Dick Grayson, pinching property out from under the noses of the so-called "premiere" DCU intelligence community and making them look like fools? That I'm down for.
> 
> It highlights how good Grayson is ... and how dangerous Spyral is. While injecting a bit of the flavor of some classic DCU agencies. Checkmate always had great concepts and even their kind of bronze chesspiece armor was cool. The Global Peace Agency has amazing "No Face" G-Men.
> 
> If you want awesome sixties style pop spy adventures, you've got to have stylish uniformed henchmen, right?


What your describing I hope happens down the road. I'm pleased with Grayson and think it's one of DC's best. I hope they commit to the new direction which from this interview and another I read from Tim Seeley it seems like DC is doing.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

From Scott Snyder's AMA on reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/c...8k81?context=3

----------


## Godlike13

Ha!  :Cool:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

He also says this: http://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/c...batman/clp75vt

----------


## Dzetoun

Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:

http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html

----------


## Rakiduam

> Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html


well, that makes everybody in the bat office very happy and the bat office editor urge people to keep reading.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html


 :EEK!: 

10char

----------


## The World

> Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html


Is this set in the future or is the art making everyone seem older?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

The aging of Dick Grayson continues.

----------


## Rakiduam

> The aging of Dick Grayson continues.


The complete destruction od Dick Graysom continues. That's what makes Didio so happy.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

There's a logical explanation. Obviously, the guy's car won't start, and Dick's refusing to help jump his car battery unless the guy gives him information.

----------


## byrd156

> There's a logical explanation. Obviously, the guy's car won't start, and Dick's refusing to help jump his car battery unless the guy gives him information.


Makes sense to me.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html


WTF. I hope Dick is being controlled or something, because that's so out of character...

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Meanwhile, the preview for _Detective Comics 36_ shows that Dick Grayson has a very, very nasty side:
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/22608-detec...e-to-home.html


Some enhanced intimidation tactics right there.  Grayson's second appearance in a Bat-Book shame it's with such terrible art.  I wonder if the creative team was made aware of this one beforehand.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It doesn't even make sense, really. Why would Spyral, an organization with mind control powers, need torture? I'm gonna assume it's a trick, rather than a gross misinterpretation by the Tec writers.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It doesn't even make sense, really. Why would Spyral, an organization with mind control powers, need torture? I'm gonna assume it's a trick, rather than a gross misinterpretation by the Tec writers.


One hopes there's something else to it.  But you have to wonder what the purpose of such a seemingly elaborate ruse would be within the context of this story.  And the fact that Percy and Leon aren't the regular _Detective Comics_ team makes a horrific misinterpretation more of a possibility.  Still, you would think that Rachel Gluckstern, who was the _Nightwing_ editor, would surely know better.

----------


## Godlike13

> It doesn't even make sense, really. Why would Spyral, an organization with mind control powers, need torture? I'm gonna assume it's a trick, rather than a gross misinterpretation by the Tec writers.


Not too mention Bruce just buzzing Dick on a cell? 

Also is Tec placed in the future or something? Whats with Bruce's grays?




> One hopes there's something else to it.  But you have to wonder what the purpose of such a seemingly elaborate ruse would be within the context of this story.  And the fact that Percy and Leon aren't the regular _Detective Comics_ team makes a horrific misinterpretation more of a possibility.  Still, you would think that Rachel Gluckstern, who was the _Nightwing_ editor, would surely know better.


They might have had to come up with something quick to fill in on Tec, and just didn't have to time to line the ducks all up properly.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Not too mention Bruce just buzzing Dick on a cell? 
> 
> Also is Tec placed in the future or something? Whats with Bruce's grays?


The cell is another sign that somebody just didn't get the memo.  The grays I think are supposed to be a sign of the rapidly progressing disease.

----------


## Badou

You all should expect more of this as time goes on. It's the direction they are taking Dick's character in. He is involved in a pretty terrible organization that does terrible things. He isn't going to come out of this looking good or feeling good about himself. 

Anyway, I'm more disappointed that they aren't doing anything special for Detective Comics #38. Which is the anniversary issue of Dick's first appearance as Robin. I was hoping that they would at least do something for it, but oh well.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> You all should expect more of this as time goes on. It's the direction they are taking Dick's character in. He is involved in a pretty terrible organization that does terrible things. He isn't going to come out of this looking good or feeling good about himself.


He's part of a super weird spy organization that is doing super weird spy stuff. His lack of comfort with the methods they employ is part of the tension his storyline is looking to build.

----------


## Claude

Yeah, not 100% happy with that..... Mind you, "Bruce is dying - quickly calls Dick for help" softens the blow a little.

It's also interesting to hear that Snyder seemingly has no plans for Dick in "Bat Events" and expects him to keep to his corner. And phrases it in A Terribly Diplomatic Manner. Hmmm....

Although whether by events he means things like "Endgame", "Night Of The Owls" or "Whatever It Is Next Summer With Harper And Duke", or whether he means things like Eternal is unclear.

----------


## The World

Eh the torture doesn't bother me, he's a disciple of Bruce and a spy at this point, he's going to be involved in some grim things but the cell phone did throw me off.

----------


## Claude

> Eh the torture doesn't bother me, he's a disciple of Bruce and a spy at this point, he's going to be involved in some grim things but the cell phone did throw me off.


Plus, in fairness, this is Dick _threatening_ to torture. Is it really much worse than when he wore a costume and threatened to drop people off buildings, or dangled people out of moving cars in the face of oncoming traffic?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Yeah, not 100% happy with that..... Mind you, "Bruce is dying - quickly calls Dick for help" softens the blow a little.
> 
> It's also interesting to hear that Snyder seemingly has no plans for Dick in "Bat Events" and expects him to keep to his corner. And phrases it in A Terribly Diplomatic Manner. Hmmm....
> 
> Although whether by events he means things like "Endgame", "Night Of The Owls" or "Whatever It Is Next Summer With Harper And Duke", or whether he means things like Eternal is unclear.


The way he phrased it was really ambiguous. It could easily just mean that he won't be going to back Nightwing anytime soon.

And Spyral has yet to be depicted doing anything terrible. In fact, it seems that Seeley has gone out of his way in the first issue to show that Spyral isn't as ruthless as other shady organizations have been. The point of Hypnos is that Spyral doesn't need to torture information out of people, or silence witnesses by leaving bodies behind.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Plus, in fairness, this is Dick _threatening_ to torture. Is it really much worse than when he wore a costume and threatened to drop people off buildings, or dangled people out of moving cars in the face of oncoming traffic?


Well, the guy is saying "please no more", implying that torture has already happened. It just seems like the writers are trying to instill a post-9/11 climate here.

And Dick looks like the oldest 21 year old I've ever seen.

----------


## The World

> Well, the guy is saying "please no more", implying that torture has already happened. It just seems like the writers are trying to instill a post-9/11 climate here.
> 
> *And Dick looks like the oldest 21 year old I've ever seen.*



That and Bruce with the gray temples was making me think it was in the future.




> Plus, in fairness, this is Dick _threatening_ to torture. Is it really much worse than when he wore a costume and threatened to drop people off buildings, or dangled people out of moving cars in the face of oncoming traffic?


If I recall he broke some dudes fingers as Nightwings.

----------


## OWL45

QUOTE=The World;663218]Eh the torture doesn't bother me, he's a disciple of Bruce and a spy at this point, he's going to be involved in some grim things but the cell phone did throw me off.[/QUOTE]

I'm with you. At some point he is going to have to use some of their methods for him to even be considered one of their Agents. Give the character room to grow. It creates story and drama. Just because he's doing it doesn't mean he is okay with it but at some point he has to employ some of their methods for this to become even more intresting on a story and character level.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Is that really Spyral's methods, though? Seems like Spyral's more the type to kidnap someone, hypnotize them for information, and then drop them off with an altered memory.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> That and Bruce with the gray temples was making me think it was in the future.


I read over Detective Comics #35 again, and Bruce looks his normal age there.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Well, the guy is saying "please no more", implying that torture has already happened. It just seems like the writers are trying to instill a post-9/11 climate here.
> 
> And Dick looks like the oldest 21 year old I've ever seen.


I don't know a lot. LeBron James didn't look 21.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Fair enough. Greg Oden looked 40 at age 21.

----------


## K. Jones

Grant Morrison had Dick torture Phosphorus Rex and I remember people freaked out then, too. But it's Dick Grayson and he never would have actually scraped Rex's face off on the pavement, I don't think.

Notes: A kid's life was in danger. Rex had literally just murdered cops. And Gordon expressed concern with Batman's using torture to get information, even in spite of you know, murdered cops, child in danger.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Grant Morrison had Dick torture Phosphorus Rex and I remember people freaked out then, too. But it's Dick Grayson and he never would have actually scraped Rex's face off on the pavement, I don't think.
> 
> Notes: A kid's life was in danger. Rex had literally just murdered cops. And Gordon expressed concern with Batman's using torture to get information, even in spite of you know, murdered cops, child in danger.


And Dick replied, "I'm Batman".

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Grant Morrison had Dick torture Phosphorus Rex and I remember people freaked out then, too. But it's Dick Grayson and he never would have actually scraped Rex's face off on the pavement, I don't think.
> 
> Notes: A kid's life was in danger. Rex had literally just murdered cops. And Gordon expressed concern with Batman's using torture to get information, even in spite of you know, murdered cops, child in danger.


002.jpg 003.jpg 004.jpg

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Just in case you were worried that Dickbats couldn't be intimidating.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well, the guy is saying "please no more", implying that torture has already happened. It just seems like the writers are trying to instill a post-9/11 climate here.


Also, the guy is sitting in a pool of blood and Dick has blood on his gloves and says "We will stop if you tell us ..."




> Is that really Spyral's methods, though? Seems like Spyral's more the type to kidnap someone, hypnotize them for information, and then drop them off with an altered memory.


King said on Thursday that Spyral will "hit you in the face if they have to, but they would rather manipulate you into running into a wall."  So, I guess you might say this is a have to situation, although as James Bond goes it is lot more Daniel Craig than Sean Connery.  What it particularly seems to fly in the face of is Seeley's last couple of statements about Dick being someone who is "flexible in a lot of things but morally inflexible."  Not, of course, that Seeley or King had anything to do with this story.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

It just seemz like who wrote this story does not really understand what Dick is doing at spyral

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

So in Batman Beyond 2.0 #40 ... *spoilers:*
Dick dies for a few seconds. His heart stops, Babs cries and says "he's really gone", Bruce freaks out. And then he wakes back up, the family reconciles, and everything is happy again.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> It just seemz like who wrote this story does not really understand what Dick is doing at spyral


Obviously. It's a two part filler story with a guy who's never written for DC before. Probably heard "spy" and immediately thought "torture".

----------


## Vinsanity

> Fair enough. Greg Oden looked 40 at age 21.


40 is a bit harsh. I say 42.

----------


## OWL45

At some point he is going to have to employ some of their tactics which may not portray him as this sweet guy some refuse to be inflexible about. He can't continue to completely go against everything at Spyral before he becomes more of a liability than an asset. It's standard spy story stuff. He will have to get his hands a little dirty eventually. To me it adds drama to the story. It makes things intresting.  What will he? Or Won't he do? It adds a little edge to the character.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> At some point he is going to have to employ some of their tactics which may not portray him as this sweet guy some refuse to be inflexible about. He can't continue to completely go against everything at Spyral before he becomes more of a liability than an asset. It's standard spy story stuff. He will have to get his hands a little dirty eventually. To me it adds drama to the story. It makes things intresting.  What will he? Or Won't he do? It adds a little edge to the character.


Spyral have mind-control to get what they want. They clearly don't seem to need torture.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Obviously. It's a two part filler story with a guy who's never written for DC before. Probably heard "spy" and immediately thought "torture".


And what about the editors?

I'm kind of uncomfortable with so many of you being ok with torture. If you like that why do you like Dick in the first place?

----------


## M L A

> And what about the editors?
> 
> I'm kind of uncomfortable with so many of you being ok with torture. If you like that why do you like Dick in the first place?


Some writers have said how they're being given more freedom. I know Seeley, King, and Snyder specifically have said they're very surprised that they're allowed to get away with some things. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> And what about the editors?


Like I said, it's a two part filler, they probably don't give a s**t.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, this arc is basically all about post-9/11 fearmongering, it seems. So the writers decided they wanted a "shocking" (pun not intended) image of a torture scene.

----------


## Claude

> Also, the guy is sitting in a pool of blood and Dick has blood on his gloves and says "We will stop if you tell us ..."


Yeah, I clearly wasn't onto anything there.  :Frown: 

In my defence, I didn't enlarge the panels for Spoiler Reasons!




> At some point he is going to have to employ some of their tactics which may not portray him as this sweet guy some refuse to be inflexible about. He can't continue to completely go against everything at Spyral before he becomes more of a liability than an asset. It's standard spy story stuff. He will have to get his hands a little dirty eventually. To me it adds drama to the story. It makes things intresting.  What will he? Or Won't he do? It adds a little edge to the character.


But _are_ these Spyral methods? We haven't seen them do anything like this before, and have seen on numerous occasions the abilities that they use _rather_ than methods like these. 

As for the "hands dirty", you're right that's an interesting plotline. But these is a Dick seemingly casually at peace with it, whereas last issue of his own title he was rejecting the idea of using a gun and telling his teammates what he was up to.

It's just the inconsistency that bothers me. If for no other reason than the thought of how fun it would be to have Batman pick up a cell in his scratchy, beautifully gritty-styled Virus Lockdown Adventure - and for Dick to pick it up in his bright, globetrotted Psychedelic Adventure World.

----------


## Godlike13

We saw Dick use Spyral methods in the first issue of Grayson. Hypnos.

----------


## OWL45

> We saw Dick use Spyral methods in the first issue of Grayson. Hypnos.


We don't know if Hypnos is all they use. We are still finding out what their tactics are. Hypnos can't be the only thing judging off how Helena operates.

----------


## oasis1313

Jumper cables for dead batteries.  No big deal.  How many dozens of times have we seen Nightwing dangling somebody over a ledge and threaten to drop them if they don't cough up what he wants to hear?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Jumper cables for dead batteries.  No big deal.  How many dozens of times have we seen Nightwing dangling somebody over a ledge and threaten to drop them if they don't cough up what he wants to hear?


If it wasn't for the sparks clearly coming out of the cables, I maybe could buy that.

----------


## oasis1313

> If it wasn't for the sparks clearly coming out of the cables, I maybe could buy that.


I trust Dick's character enough to know that if he had to use unpleasant methods to save innocent people, he would make the best decision possible.  A little electricity or punching the guy to a pulp--what's the difference?

----------


## byrd156

> I trust Dick's character enough to know that if he had to use unpleasant methods to save innocent people, he would make the best decision possible.  A little electricity or punching the guy to a pulp--what's the difference?


Yeah but Dick is different from his pre-52 version.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah but Dick is different from his pre-52 version.


He doesn't seem to be enjoying himself.

----------


## Dzetoun

> He doesn't seem to be enjoying himself.


Depends on where you read.  In _Grayson_, he's had several pleasant experiences.  In the upcoming issue, it seems we are going to see what happens when Dick tries to live in a school full of teenage femme fatales.  Chris Burnham, which has read it, said in Twiiter it was a 




> @HackinTimSeeley Manty raid.

----------


## OWL45

> He doesn't seem to be enjoying himself.


He is not a clown. The character should be allowed to have highs and lows. It gives him more dimension than just being seen as a character that flips around smiling all the time. That gets tired after a awhile. Their has to be more to Dick then that. It seems like some want to keep him stuck their for nostalgia purposes.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Depends on where you read.  In _Grayson_, he's had several pleasant experiences.  In the upcoming issue, it seems we are going to see what happens when Dick tries to live in a school full of teenage femme fatales.  Chris Burnham, which has read it, said in Twiiter it was a


Sounds like a nother good issue

----------


## oasis1313

> Sounds like a nother good issue


Yeah--one gorgeous guy in a girl's dorm.  Hope he's got plenty of undershorts.

----------


## byrd156

> He is not a clown. The character should be allowed to have highs and lows. It gives him more dimension than just being seen as a character that flips around smiling all the time. That gets tired after a awhile. Their has to be more to Dick then that. It seems like some want to keep him stuck their for nostalgia purposes.


I don't think anyone is complaining about Dick's character dimensions. He has always has high points and low points. 

Where is he stuck exactly?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Only one more month until Dick-cember

----------


## M L A

> Only one more month until Dick-cember


Sexcellent.

----------


## OWL45

> I don't think anyone is complaining about Dick's character dimensions. He has always has high points and low points. 
> 
> Where is he stuck exactly?


What I mean by stuck is the circus performer acrobat. That is only one aspect of the character also the joking and having fun. I was impressed that Tom King touched on it in issue 3. It almost got 2 people killed. I guess what I'm saying is it should have a time and place. It seems like some people want that all the time in regards to his portrayal and in my opinion it makes the character shallow. Every time they try to portray something diffrent to generate story people start complaining.

----------


## Rakiduam

> We saw Dick use Spyral methods in the first issue of Grayson. Hypnos.


To know that they would have to read DC books and it looks like not even the editors bother to do that.

----------


## AgentGrayson1114

The torture scene is pretty off but it's not going to derail Grayson for me or anything. Lol Many Raid, that is going to be hilarious.

----------


## oasis1313

Can't wait till books come out this week!

----------


## OversizedLoad

FHIZ got dem skillz
http://GothamSpoilers.com : Grayson #4 Preview http://bit.ly/10kofgC

----------


## M L A

> Grayson #4 Preview http://bit.ly/10kofgC


incredible

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

On mobile right now, so I can't see the text in those previews, but shouldn't the girls recognize Dick as the guy who was exposed on television as Nightwing and is now dead? Unless Dick's just Hypnos-ing people left and right. Or we can just pretend that Forever Evil never happened.

----------


## Godlike13

> On mobile right now, so I can't see the text in those previews, but shouldn't the girls recognize Dick as the guy who was exposed on television as Nightwing and is now dead? Unless Dick's just Hypnos-ing people left and right. Or we can just pretend that Forever Evil never happened.


His face is spiraled out.

----------


## oasis1313

Maybe the Hypnos thingy just works all the time.  But the girls don't seem too upset about not seeing his face when the rest of the merchandise is so hunkily displayed.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I always thought that the face spiral effect was applied retroactively. Midnighter noticed Dick's "charming" face and didn't realize he was Spyral until Dick tried to use Hypnos against him.

----------


## M L A

His face can't be seen on cameras and video footage and stuff either.

----------


## K. Jones

> What your describing I hope happens down the road. I'm pleased with Grayson and think it's one of DC's best. I hope they commit to the new direction which from this interview and another I read from Tim Seeley it seems like DC is doing.


"Down the road" can mean "within the first five pages of the preview for Grayson # 4", right?

I feel good about nailing this one on the head, but it was kind of telegraphed by the various intelligence agency costumes in Ashemoore's hideout, too. Cool looking henchmen. An almost SHIELD/HYDRA or G.I. Joe/Cobra-esque conflict featuring spy/ninja/commandos getting into a big crazy hover-bunker and escaping those cool looking themed henchmen. (Weird coincidence, I totally read G.I. Joe # 21 (Silent Interlude) last night and couldn't help get overloaded with that vibe here. The Checkmate Troopers are practically using Cobra CLAW gliders.)

What I didn't expect was for it to be done in vignette! A few lines of dialogue from Minos establishing the themey-theme-themes and tossing off wild Checkmate ideas, and then one-panel splash-paging the entirety of the conflict? Fantastic. I'm sure we'll deal more with Checkmate in the future. I'm REALLY pleased to see them still using the Rucka-era armor, because I couldn't remember if they used that look in OMAC or not. Was that dude in the micro-panels Max Lord with hypno-eyes or just some upper echelon Checkmate agent getting Hypnoed by the Hypnos?

Even the flying-squirrel suits speak to the recent Tomasi-era Freefall arc of Nightwing. We get a Headmistress name-drop. Could the Black Knight not just be Checkmate's uber-Cobra thematic hover-ship but also be the agent in control of it? Dick could certainly use a rival who goes by that nomenclature. Oh and the spiraling checkerboard pattern on the cover makes more sense now, too.

Five pages and I'm overburdened with interest.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

But what about the Air Mata Kucing flavored sucker?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Here's the full preview: http://www.nerdist.com/2014/11/exclu...son-4-preview/

So in one book this week, Dick will be happily sucking on a lollipop. In another book, he'll be electrocuting someone with jumper cables.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

This looks like it could be the best issue yet. I can't wait!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That "manty raid" is going to out Dick to Spyral, isn't it?

----------


## M L A

I do like how they seemed to do the mission in just two pages. Assuming they don't do another one later in the issue, this'll be a nice combo breaker.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It seems like most of the issue will focus on the "manty raid" and Helena trying to find the insider. Should be some good comedy.

Also makes me really want a Grayson Mission: Impossible style team-up book.

----------


## dick_wingnut

This looks dumb, and I am caring less about this poptart book at an exponential rate.

----------


## colossus34

> FHIZ got dem skillz
> : Grayson #4 Preview http://bit.ly/10kofgC


A "Manty" raid? I cringed so hard. Why is Grayson being used as some sort of cheap, exploitation material? Really be nice if his book and character taken seriously for once sigh

----------


## jules

> That "manty raid" is going to out Dick to Spyral, isn't it?


I do hope that he doesn't keep bits of his Bat-transmitter in his underwear drawer.  :Smile:

----------


## Dzetoun

> I do hope that he doesn't keep bits of his Bat-transmitter in his underwear drawer.


Calling Dr. Wertham...

----------


## oasis1313

> Calling Dr. Wertham...


"Hello?  Yes, this is Dr. Frederick Wertham.  Yes, we have something . . . ephebic" . . . here . . . "

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

The girls post the pictures in the Internet, and that's how the Bat family finds out about Dick. Because they recognize the shape of his abs... yeah

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I dont think the manty pose will take up a huge chunk of the issue

----------


## Diggy

I haven't read Grayson at all yet, how are yall liking it?

----------


## OWL45

> I haven't read Grayson at all yet, how are yall liking it?


It's awesome man. I'm really enjoying it. I think it's one of DC's best comics but that's my opinion.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I haven't read Grayson at all yet, how are yall liking it?


It's a fantastic breath of fresh air.

----------


## M L A

> I haven't read Grayson at all yet, how are yall liking it?


Like it a lot. It's getting to be one of my favorite ongoings.

----------


## kryslogan

Nightwing USED to be my favorite character after Batman in the Batman universe. This particular NEW 52 Direction seems retarded, with Dick's thunder being stolen and distributed to Red Hood and Red Robin. Are you telling me that this is the best they could come up with for the Character? Seriously?

Seems like a pathetic and watered down version of Barbara becoming Oracle - similar character arc but, without any true reason for it besides unimaginative and lame writing. I mean who the hell tells these "writers" they can write? This entire New 52 event seems doomed to failure, whether or not anyone is reading the damn books - btw, I'm all for change - as long as I can see a character being developed and potential being realized, but this is clearly not happening here. Makes me want to read Marvel comics.

Disclaimer: I have been out of the loop for some time and only just got back into reading comics but, I am not impressed - the level of writing is childish and so thin all around, I'm having a hard time using my brain while "reading" these comics. I mean seriously. Someone throw me a bone here, what is the intention with Dick? To bury him into obscurity and make him some kind of pale imitation of the man from UNCLE? Sighh...rant over...I'll read these grayson books for a while longer but, I don't think I'll stick around much longer.

----------


## Csjbo08

> Nightwing USED to be my favorite character after Batman in the Batman universe. This particular NEW 52 Direction seems retarded, with Dick's thunder being stolen and distributed to Red Hood and Red Robin. Are you telling me that this is the best they could come up with for the Character? Seriously?
> 
> Seems like a pathetic and watered down version of Barbara becoming Oracle - similar character arc but, without any true reason for it besides unimaginative and lame writing. I mean who the hell tells these "writers" they can write? This entire New 52 event seems doomed to failure, whether or not anyone is reading the damn books - btw, I'm all for change - as long as I can see a character being developed and potential being realized, but this is clearly not happening here. Makes me want to read Marvel comics.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have been out of the loop for some time and only just got back into reading comics but, I am not impressed - the level of writing is childish and so thin all around, I'm having a hard time using my brain while "reading" these comics. I mean seriously. Someone throw me a bone here, what is the intention with Dick? To bury him into obscurity and make him some kind of pale imitation of the man from UNCLE? Sighh...rant over...I'll read these grayson books for a while longer but, I don't think I'll stick around much longer.


Well look at it this way, as Nightwing, Dick Grayson is just another street level vigilante whose books can read like a lot of what we've seen from the DCNU.  As Agent Grayson, he at least can be the leading figure in an area of the DCU (espionage) that isn't as well established as other parts of the New 52.  

I think that _Grayson_  has been one of the best series DC has put out there since it's creation.  The writers have done an excellent job of creating an atmosphere that is very refreshing and different from what we've seen in a lot of the new 52.  Tom King, with the FE: Tie-In and last issue of _Grayson_ really flexed his writing skills, whether it's how he presents the narrative to the amount of literary devices used in his writing to reinforce the themes of each book.  Dick Grayson went through an entire character arc in the last issue.  There are many things you can call the series, but "thin" or "childish" isn't accurate.  

While it's true that Jason and Tim have taken a lot of aspects of Dick's character, I will say that this first 4-5 issues of _Grayson_ have been better than anything those two have been in, in the entirety of the new 52.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Jason and Tim have been written by Scott Lobdell. They can keep him.

----------


## kryslogan

> Well look at it this way, as Nightwing, Dick Grayson is just another street level vigilante whose books can read like a lot of what we've seen from the DCNU.  As Agent Grayson, he at least can be the leading figure in an area of the DCU (espionage) that isn't as well established as other parts of the New 52.  
> 
> I think that _Grayson_  has been one of the best series DC has put out there since it's conception.  The writers have done an excellent job of creating an atmosphere that is very refreshing and different from what we've seen in a lot of the new 52.  Tom King, with the FE: Tie-In and last issue of _Grayson_ really flexed his writing skills, whether it's how he presents the narrative to the amount of literary devices used in his writing to reinforce the themes of each book.  Dick Grayson went through an entire character arc in the last issue.  There are many things you can call the series, but "thin" or "childish" isn't accurate.  
> 
> While it's true that Jason and Tim have taken a lot of aspects of Dick's character, I will say that this first 4-5 issues of _Grayson_ have been better than anything those two have been in, in the entirety of the new 52.


I've no beef with changing the direction of the character - Dick did after all attend college back in the day because he wanted to strike out on his own, and his separation from his father figure has been a central aspect of his character. However, to have him work in the shadows a la Batman, within the murky and as you say "undeveloped" area of espionage within the DCU, reverses that and instead one ups it (after all let's be honest, in espionage if anyone knows about it factually, the true spies are those you never hear about and we should therefore never really know what's going on like in a real pursuit of "something" but, I digress); hence my reference to the Man from UNCLE.

I agree that Grayson has been better than the New 52 Nightwing but, it's still not excellent writing by my standards. You can disagree with my opinion and that's fine - I read a lot more than just comics and I'm a writer by profession as well - although not in this medium. Fact is, I do not see any plumbing of the depths of the character, I no longer see someone who is actively trying to carve his own niche in the world, rather I see someone who has been defeated and is now lingering in an area he is honestly ill placed within - if the "writers" had better ideas maybe I'd buy into them but, I don't see anything ground-breaking. It's simply, let's write this scenario and have Dick be the protagonist. It smacks of shortsightedness and I won't cut DC any slack because it's clear as day they don't have a clue. Doesn't mean I don't want to see Dick as a mere copy of Batman with a poor rogue's gallery; far from it - so I don't want him to simply return to "crime fighting" with a mask on. Not at all.

Like I mentioned, I am still reading the books but, I'm not seeing much of a larger arc and if I wanted a good spy read, I'd go to a novel because this team can't hold a candle to a writer that actually understands espionage - which is why I say childish because I do not see the depth of research that would automatically have me buy in to the writers knowledge of the genre and this is a well known genre regardless of whether or not it's developed or not within the DCU. If I were to see a Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy or The Day of the Jackal type story with a depth of characterization relevant to Dick then I would be all for it because he is always undervalued and that type of story would raise his profile.

I do not disagree with you on the point that Grayson is a cut above the others - but, when comparing average to mediocre the average seems good even when it isn't. I will continue to read Grayson because I am a fan of the character although not this present incarnation but, I'm being honest about what I'm reading and I'm not impressed. I'm hoping for more, maybe my expectations are too high because the character has so much potential that's being wasted.

----------


## kryslogan

I agree with you, that dude cannot write.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Like I mentioned, I am still reading the books but, I'm not seeing much of a larger arc and if I wanted a good spy read, I'd go to a novel because this team can't hold a candle to a writer that actually understands espionage - which is why I say childish because I do not see the depth of research that would automatically have me buy in to the writers knowledge of the genre and this is a well known genre regardless of whether or not it's developed or not within the DCU. If I were to see a Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy or The Day of the Jackal type story with a depth of characterization relevant to Dick then I would be all for it because he is always undervalued and that type of story would raise his profile.


This isn't that type of spy story. This book still takes place in a universe when men fly around in blue and red capes. This is a more of a self-aware 60s James Bond homage.

As for story arc, there have only been 3 issues so far. There have been hints of a larger story arc being developed.

----------


## OWL45

> Well look at it this way, as Nightwing, Dictionar Grayson is just another street level vigilante whose books can read lithat's  lot of what we've seen from the DCNU.  As Agent Grayson, he at least can be the leading figure an area of the DCU (espionage) that isn't as well established as other parts of the New 52.  
> 
> I think that _Grayson_  has been one of the best series DC has put out there since it's creation.  The writers have done an excellent job of creating an atmosphere that is very refreshing and different from what we've seen in a lot of the new 52.  Tom King, with the FE: Tie-In and last issue of _Grayson_ really flexed his writing skills, whether it's how he presents the narrative to the amount of literary devices used in his writing to reinforce the themes of each book.  Dick Grayson went through an entire character arc in the last issue.  There are many things you can call the series, but "thin" or "childish" isn't accurate.  
> 
> While it's true that Jason and Tim have taken a lot of aspects of Dick's character, I will say that this first 4-5 issues of _Grayson_ have been better than anything those two have been in, in the entirety of the new 52.


I completely agree with you. It's far better written than the Nightwing series that just ended. The character has his own mythos taking shape that's his.. He is traveling the world instead of being crammed in Gotham City with 100 different heroes and villains. The character overall just has a lot more going on.

----------


## Csjbo08

The more you type, the more I'm unsure as to whether or not you've read _Grayson_ because a lot of what you've said doesn't really jibe with what is actually going on in the comic.  The last two issues of the series (including FE) really did delve into the character of Dick Grayson, more than what we have seen in a long while.  Not to mention, you began by saying that the writing was lame, but then later saying that it is average.  

Tom King is a former CIA agent, so I think he understands more about espionage than you do and will probably ever know, unless you are also a CIA agent by profession as well. At the end of the day, _Grayson_  should not mirror Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy because that would be a very boring comic book.

When I looked at your post history, you've done this before with regards to Supergirl where you wrote ostentatious things that didn't fit with what was actually being put into the comic books.  

Stop saying "writers", it's incredibly disrespectful as Tim Seeley and Tom King are quality writers from Tim Seeley's _Revival_ and _Sundowners_ and Tom King's _A Once Crowded Sky_.

----------


## Godlike13

> Like I mentioned, I am still reading the books but, I'm not seeing much of a larger arc and if I wanted a good spy read, I'd go to a novel because this team can't hold a candle to a writer that actually understands espionage - which is why I say childish because I do not see the depth of research that would automatically have me buy in to the writers knowledge of the genre and this is a well known genre regardless of whether or not it's developed or not within the DCU. If I were to see a Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy or The Day of the Jackal type story with a depth of characterization relevant to Dick then I would be all for it because he is always undervalued and that type of story would raise his profile.


One of the writers worked for the CIA. Also while it is a spy setting, its still a fantastical spy setting. Which is what Grayson is going for.

----------


## Punisher007

It's like old-school wacky James Bond, but even more "out there."  Roger Moore would probably love this book, it's right up his alley.   :Wink:

----------


## oasis1313

It's a neat book, Seeley and King seem to really care about Dick and understand that his fans love him VERY much, Janin's artwork is beautiful.  Some good luck, for a change.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It's like old-school wacky James Bond, but even more "out there."  Roger Moore would probably love this book, it's right up his alley.


Or even more Sean Connery or possibly Patrick McGoohan,  :Smile: . In terms of espionage, King has understandably been reticent except to say that _Grayson_ deals with philosophical, psychological, and moral issues related to spying, but not actual methods.  Seeley has said there are two sources of spy fiction he loves: James Bond, which very much informs the book, and John LeCarre, which very much does not.  He has also pointed out that, after all, most real work done by real spies is very tedious and boring, with what action there is being mental puzzles and mind games, and nobody wants to read about Dick doing that day in and day out.

----------


## kryslogan

> The more you type, the more I'm unsure as to whether or not you've read _Grayson_ because a lot of what you've said doesn't really jibe with what is actually going on in the comic.  The last two issues of the series (including FE) really did delve into the character of Dick Grayson, more than what we have seen in a long while.  Not to mention, you began by saying that the writing was lame, but then later saying that it is average.  
> 
> Tom King is a former CIA agent, so I think he understands more about espionage than you do and will probably ever know, unless you are also a CIA agent by profession as well. At the end of the day, _Grayson_  should not mirror Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy because that would be a very boring comic book.
> 
> When I looked at your post history, you've done this before with regards to Supergirl where you wrote ostentatious things that didn't fit with what was actually being put into the comic books.  
> 
> Stop saying "writers", it's incredibly disrespectful as Tim Seeley and Tom King are quality writers from Tim Seeley's _Revival_ and _Sundowners_ and Tom King's _A Once Crowded Sky_.


The writing is lame by "my standards"; my point about average was with context - re-read it perhaps and you'll understand I was making a comparison: it can be thought of as "average" if the other New 52 books are mediocre.

Yes I complained about Supergirl and the general direction I'm seeing in these New 52 books - the writing is sub-par overall, however I like the main Superman & Batman books. I clearly stated I was out of reading comics for sometime and just started back- that provides information and context to my reading experience - obviously something of a shock and not a good one - so anyone who reads what I said should have picked up on that.

However, I don't see what my supergirl comment one has to do with nightwing beyond the fact I find myself disappointed; if you don't agree that's your opinion - you don't see me attacking you for it do you? Nothing I said was ostentatious - I'm a writer, if I use English in a particular way to express myself that's my purview.

I do not share your view on the writers at this time - and I am well aware of how much criticism writers across the board have to deal with, having been on the receiving end many times in my career. As for the genre, yes I know a bit about it (both literary and professionally). Does that mean I'm an analyst? No I am not and I've never worked for the CIA or other law enforcement - my skills and interests lie in another direction.

I see what fuzzy cactus is saying and also what godlike and dzetoun are saying, so that gives me something to think about.

To simplify things, what I'm beefing about is this: the character has been changed so much for very little gain and I've lost confidence that things will improve or that the pay-off will be worth it. I am still continuing to follow the book, if I thought there was zero merit I would have dropped it already - I came to the forum to express my disappointment and hear what others had to say. Like everyone else, I don't want a Batman Lite for Dick nor do I want a Dick bogged down by tedium (I know how mind numbing that is in real life and I wouldn't want to read that!).

I agree with oasis, the artwork is right up there for me.

I remain open minded and hopeful, and I have no issues with anyone clarifying things or even correcting me - it's why I'm here.

----------


## jules

> Disclaimer: I have been out of the loop for some time and only just got back into reading comics but, I am not impressed - the level of writing is childish and so thin all around, I'm having a hard time using my brain while "reading" these comics. I mean seriously. Someone throw me a bone here, what is the intention with Dick? To bury him into obscurity and make him some kind of pale imitation of the man from UNCLE? Sighh...rant over...I'll read these grayson books for a while longer but, I don't think I'll stick around much longer.


I don't see childishness in the writing. There are moments when the _character_ has been childish - not taking things seriously enough, as during the mission last issue - but that's hubris, and ought to be character building in the long run. And it does hark back to Dick's tendency to quip back when he was wearing the Robin suit. He's following other people's orders rather than striking out on his own at the moment. Perhaps that relieves him of the responsibility that muted that tendency?

I mostly see the writing as light-hearted, and a welcome breath of fresh air. You say that you've been out of the loop for a while, so you possibly missed most of the relentless, one-tone grimdark of the past few years. Believe me, that this title is missing all that is definitely at least one of its selling points.




> Fact is, I do not see any plumbing of the depths of the character, I no longer see someone who is actively trying to carve his own niche in the world, rather I see someone who has been defeated and is now lingering in an area he is honestly ill placed within


But it's part of his current character arc that he _is_ a fish out of water. Spyral and spying in general is an environment that doesn't feel comfortable to him, and doesn't come easily, no matter how competent and confident he may be in his superheroing skills. It's something that he'll either come to terms with - achieving his own compromise with that world, on its terms and also on his - or he'll defeat and then move on. So, while I've seen people suggest that his current role/mission/title would be a better fit for Jason Todd or Roy Harper, as characters who have more experience in this world, I'd rather see Dick Grayson here because it offers a lot more internal struggle and a lot more plot and character potential.

No, he's not trying to carve his own niche at the moment. He's trying to fit into someone else's. Square peg, round hole. It likely won't be a permanent thing, but it's interesting to watch while it's happening.




> This isn't that type of spy story. This book still takes place in a universe when men fly around in blue and red capes. This is a more of a self-aware 60s James Bond homage.





> Or even more Sean Connery or possibly Patrick McGoohan, . In terms of espionage, King has understandably been reticent except to say that _Grayson_ deals with philosophical, psychological, and moral issues related to spying, but not actual methods.  Seeley has said there are two sources of spy fiction he loves: James Bond, which very much informs the book, and John LeCarre, which very much does not.  He has also pointed out that, after all, most real work done by real spies is very tedious and boring, with what action there is being mental puzzles and mind games, and nobody wants to read about Dick doing that day in and day out.


I see echoes of Modesty Blaise in there as well. The missions are very much her style of "caper".

----------


## Punisher007

> Or even more Sean Connery or possibly Patrick McGoohan, . In terms of espionage, King has understandably been reticent except to say that _Grayson_ deals with philosophical, psychological, and moral issues related to spying, but not actual methods.  Seeley has said there are two sources of spy fiction he loves: James Bond, which very much informs the book, and John LeCarre, which very much does not.  He has also pointed out that, after all, most real work done by real spies is very tedious and boring, with what action there is being mental puzzles and mind games, and nobody wants to read about Dick doing that day in and day out.


To be honest, as much as I love John LeCarre (just finished reading _Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy_), his style wouldn't really fit a comic book.  It works really well for novels, TV, or even films, but as a comic I see it coming across as quite dull to many people.  Especially if it's a Big Two comic book.

----------


## Punisher007

> A "Manty" raid? I cringed so hard. Why is Grayson being used as some sort of cheap, exploitation material? Really be nice if his book and character taken seriously for once sigh


Oh you mean like last issue, or the issue before, or the issue before that.  This book has dealt with serious stuff.  But a lighter issue every now and again isn't a bad thing.

----------


## kryslogan

Hey Jules.

Yeah I can vibe that; aside from Modesty Blaise, I also see some Human Target - and I'm not too comfortable with it all so far - but, again I'm not saying the book has no worth or that it's not better than the other stuff I've read lately. And yes, I think my diving in to the books I had huge expectations and wasn't prepared for what I read.

About the childishness, what I'm getting at is Dick was always a slightly lighter bats right, but here we have a guy in a covert operation which (I think) has larger ramifications and some of the dialogue was just out of place; midnighter actually says "don't worry your pretty head" I mean come on, who talks like that during a battle (this is just one example I remembered off the top of my head). And for someone who would not want to be found out as a mole, his actions just seem too risky, it just doesn't sync with what he's doing; I can get fish out of water but, he's done covert before, and he's entered arkham/role-played and kept his game face on, so I'm having a hard time buying that completely.

And, I think I'm confusing myself with how to react to this incarnation of the character. Dick should be more grown up, mature, serious, etc. given the stories I'm remembering, so maybe that's an honest part of it on my side of things. It's like he suddenly went teenager on me.

I mean I can totally see Dick as Bats secret operative, and doing things Bats can't do that's well established I think - I like that - eh but, hopefully I'm making sense.

----------


## Punisher007

Not really.  Did has always been more lighthearted and laid back, at least when he's written well.  He's had many serious moments in this book, the whole gun thing last issue being a example.  But he's also not being the brooding angsty guy either.  "Childish," no he hasn't been that way in this book.

----------


## Csjbo08

Dick Grayson is 21 in the reboot, I think he was 27 pre-Flashpoint (not sure, please correct if wrong), same with Barbara Gordon as she's now 21.  One criticism that I frequently share about DC Comics in the new 52 is that they de-aged a lot of the characters, yet their behavior and tone of the stories really didn't fit what their characters would actually be like at that age.  For example, Gail Simone's Batgirl was better suited for pre-Flashpoint Barbara than new-52 Barbara. Not to mention, you could read an entire 30-issue run of a character and still not know their age.  I really do think that the DC and the writers need to make a concerted effort to have these characters not only act their age but more importantly, give the readers an idea of how old they are.  

So going full circle to _Grayson_ the way Dick behaves makes sense for a 21-year old, but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't know that Dick was 21.

----------


## phonogram12

> Dick Grayson is 21 in the reboot, I think he was 27 pre-Flashpoint (not sure, please correct if wrong), same with Barbara Gordon as she's now 21.  One criticism that I frequently share about DC Comics in the new 52 is that they de-aged a lot of the characters, yet their behavior and tone of the stories really didn't fit what their characters would actually be like at that age.  For example, Gail Simone's Batgirl was better suited for pre-Flashpoint Barbara than new-52 Barbara. Not to mention, you could read an entire 30-issue run of a character and still not know their age.  I really do think that the DC and the writers need to make a concerted effort to have these characters not only act their age but more importantly, giving the readers an idea of how old they are.


DC hates doing this. It's really one of the main reasons they did the new 52 in the first place. Pre 52, Bruce probably would've been at least 39 and DC just doesn't know what to do with that. As much as I love the Robins (some more than others, admittedly) they're what age Bruce the most and in turn, the DCU as a whole. As much as I love some aspects of the new 52 (particularly what they're doing with Jason Todd and the current run of Batgirl), the way they're doing the timeline now is ridiculous, but in DC's eyes, at least their icons aren't pushing middle age.

----------


## K. Jones

> Dick Grayson is 21 in the reboot, I think he was 27 pre-Flashpoint (not sure, please correct if wrong), same with Barbara Gordon as she's now 21.  One criticism that I frequently share about DC Comics in the new 52 is that they de-aged a lot of the characters, yet their behavior and tone of the stories really didn't fit what their characters would actually be like at that age.  For example, Gail Simone's Batgirl was better suited for pre-Flashpoint Barbara than new-52 Barbara. Not to mention, you could read an entire 30-issue run of a character and still not know their age.  I really do think that the DC and the writers need to make a concerted effort to have these characters not only act their age but more importantly, give the readers an idea of how old they are.  
> 
> So going full circle to _Grayson_ the way Dick behaves makes sense for a 21-year old, but I wouldn't blame you if you didn't know that Dick was 21.


This is definitely part of the reason why DC's ill-equipped more recent Editorial has had such problems specifically with Dick Grayson himself. Dick IS the element that ages the DCU. His character is the entire crux of "how much time has passed" since super-heroes started going mainstream in-universe.

Prior to the New 52 there were two trains of thought about this, or two "models".

There was a 10 year model, which I really liked, that figured that Dick Grayson started as Robin at age 10-12 (depending on sources) and was about 20-22 (so 21 averaged) when he became Batman. I like the 10 year model specifically because to make it work with Batman's entire publication history all you have to do is consider each decade of Batman's history "a year in his life", and then add your various "Year One" style stuff onto it, then pick and choose your head-canon. (Like if you prefer an LOTDK storyline to an original Golden Age one).

There was also a 15-20 year model, which probably was probably more specific and less compressed and gave all the stories that needed to fit into it breathing room. Grayson would've been about 25-27, yeah, and Batman himself would be getting up there in his mid-40s. You'd see hints of this a lot in the earlier 2000s, actually - the idea that Batman's really been around for a while persisted throughout Denny's incredible run as writer and group editor. Once Pete Tomasi and Grant took over after Infinite Crisis this was ratcheted back (in a far more organic and skillful way than The New 52 - they just stopped mentioning dates and times!)

Of course, references to amount of time passed "within the contexts of stories" only ever really refer to recent history or stories written by the same authors so there's like no way to compile a logical timeline based on that.

But at any rate ... any timeline of the DCU lives and dies based on Dick Grayson. For him to be 21 and the Robin who grew up (a concept that works, and has been working for 30 years now), the rest of the DCU has to technically have grown up with him. I've been living with the 5 year timeline only because it was easy enough to just "halve" the 10 year timeline I was already working with, but honestly, that's just for organizational reasons. It's incredulous to believe that about the Batman line, where even with artificial aging, Damian was probably conceived in the "Early 1980s period" of Batman's career, and where Dick Grayson starting out as Robin at age 16 feels kind of weird just because of how much it condenses the histories of the other Robins. (Tim Drake was infamously 14 when he became Robin, in a period when Dick had to be about 19 because he'd already gone to college and then quit school to become a live-in boyfriend to his alien space princess super-model girlfriend - the New York dream.)

As for Babs ... I'm pretty sure the youthening was to maintain consistency with depictions in like, Batman: The Animated Series, where she was definitely a contemporary for Dick. But really, the comics kind of preternaturally "aged" her more than they should have anyway. What person in their mid-20s runs for Congress (and you know, solves crimes and murders along the campaign trail with her disability collecting ex-cop P.I. boyfriend and shady brother)?

----------


## kryslogan

Did not know dick was now 21; it explains a few things but, not everything.

Punisher; clearly the gun situation was contrived and I'm not buying it. If someone volunteers to infiltrate a secret organization and sop requires guns, there is no logical reason for said volunteer to draw attention to himself by making an issue of using a gun or for disobeying orders and mucking things up. Its like signing up for the police and then saying you're a pacifist while a perp is beating your partner to death - trying to rationalise with a known criminal and getting your co-worker/partner shot/killed? and then checking on the criminal and not the co-worker, just seems like he's sabotaging himself - so the gun story doesn't make sense to me. Its coming across to me as a contrivance by the writers - meaning just plot - I don't understand why it doesn't bother you (collectively, not just you punisher). And as for childish, you may prefer I use immature or irresponsible or naïve as those may put you closer to understanding my pov.

I don't mind dick being lighter but, there should be some context - and I'm not for a brooding dick either - just a guy trying to work his issues out, like most of us or at least I can speak for myself.

So yeah - good stuff, thanks for the info. It helps. Guess that means dick never went to college, how long was he robin then - a few years? So I wonder what else changed in his backstory. Is there a book that details it? Is that the cancelled series? Is he still Bats equal, well hm, he can't be right, he's too green?

----------


## kryslogan

K Jones!

Awesome stuff man. That puts a lot in context for me. So how does this new 52 dick jive with what you said? I'm afraid to even try to figure it out...

PS: I'm at work and you guys are helping me avoid massive boredom, slow day at the office  :Smile:

----------


## Csjbo08

> Did not know dick was now 21; it explains a few things but, not everything.
> 
> Punisher; clearly the gun situation was contrived and I'm not buying it. If someone volunteers to infiltrate a secret organization and sop requires guns, there is no logical reason for said volunteer to draw attention to himself by making an issue of using a gun or for disobeying orders and mucking things up. Its like signing up for the police and then saying you're a pacifist while a perp is beating your partner to death - trying to rationalise with a known criminal and getting your co-worker/partner shot/killed? and then checking on the criminal and not the co-worker, just seems like he's sabotaging himself - so the gun story doesn't make sense to me. Its coming across to me as a contrivance by the writers - meaning just plot - I don't understand why it doesn't bother you (collectively, not just you punisher). And as for childish, you may prefer I use immature or irresponsible or naïve as those may put you closer to understanding my pov.
> 
> I don't mind dick being lighter but, there should be some context - and I'm not for a brooding dick either - just a guy trying to work his issues out, like most of us or at least I can speak for myself.
> 
> So yeah - good stuff, thanks for the info. It helps. Guess that means dick never went to college, how long was he robin then - a few years? So I wonder what else changed in his backstory. Is there a book that details it? Is that the cancelled series? Is he still Bats equal, well hm, he can't be right, he's too green?


I believe Dick Grayson was Robin for 2 years.  You get some glimpses of his time as Robin, my favorite being the Batman & Robin Annual 2 but there is also the Secret Origins issue. In terms of what else changed in his backstory... a lot.  For starters, he was not one of the founding members of the Titans as he was not a member of the Titans at all.  In RHATO, it is mentioned that he, Kori and Roy were part of a team, but we really don't know what went on as knowledge of that "team" is nebulous to say the least and apparently the only character that has the capability to tell us, Starfire, won't. #FreeKoriandRoyfromRHATO.   We do know that he was Batman about a year but once again, very few specifics and of all the things to keep from pre-Flashpoint, Dick being Batman should not have been one of them, for starters it would have meant he was Batman at age 20, which is weird and secondly, Dick becoming Batman is him fulfilling his arc as a legacy character and should be something that is presented towards the end of continuity.

In terms of his relationship with Batman, it seems as though Dick Grayson is the one Bruce trusts the most, even more so than Alfred.  Bruce did say that in Batman & Robin that Dick did a fine job as Batman. They did have an unintentionally comedic sparring session in Nightwing #30 where he more or less held his own.

----------


## kryslogan

Wow csjbo - holy crap. So, it's changed that much? I'm going to get those books you mentioned. And yeah, how could dick be bats at 20 man, that makes no sense. And trusts dick more than Alfred? Even though Alfred sews him up and has been there longer? Uhm. I don't get these changes. How important are all the other bat books? Which ones do you guys read? I'm trying to expand my reading list slowly - less chance I go nuts lol.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Mainly Snyder's Batman, and Tomasi's Batman and Robin

----------


## Csjbo08

> Wow csjbo - holy crap. So, it's changed that much? I'm going to get those books you mentioned. And yeah, how could dick be bats at 20 man, that makes no sense. And trusts dick more than Alfred? Even though Alfred sews him up and has been there longer? Uhm. I don't get these changes. How important are all the other bat books? Which ones do you guys read? I'm trying to expand my reading list slowly - less chance I go nuts lol.


The ones I read, not necessarily on my pull list because with the exception of a few comics, it'll vary according to my budget.

Tomasi _Batman & Robin_ best of the Batman books
Seeley/King _Grayson_  :Smile: 
Scott Snyder _Batman_
Cameron Stewart _Batgirl_ it's only one issue but I loved the vibe and not a huge fan of Gail Simone's run


I would avoid Red Hood and the Outlaws, it started off OK but after Rocafort left, the results haven't been pretty and it's existence actually makes me mad and kind of depressed.

----------


## kryslogan

Ok, cool - definitely going to get those; fortunate my job allows me to buy these things without much pain. I'll give the batgirl a try too; I did like that Asian one from long ago who couldn't/wouldn't talk?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Ok, cool - definitely going to get those; fortunate my job allows me to buy these things without much pain. I'll give the batgirl a try too; I did like that Asian one from long ago who couldn't/wouldn't talk?


You're talking about Cassandra Cain, then. The new Batgirl run is vastly different. It's a bit reminiscent of Batgirl Year One, but much more soaked in modern trends.

I'd also recommend the new Catwoman (#35). It's really promising. It shifts the focus to mob drama, and is really well-written.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Tom King @TomKingTK  ·  Nov 3
> Man, the @mikeljanin art on Grayson 5 is award winning good. I know it's not out for 5 weeks, but you should start preparing about now.


Well, thanks for getting me excited. Dammit.

----------


## K. Jones

> K Jones!
> 
> Awesome stuff man. That puts a lot in context for me. So how does this new 52 dick jive with what you said? I'm afraid to even try to figure it out...
> 
> PS: I'm at work and you guys are helping me avoid massive boredom, slow day at the office


1. Hypertime.

2. In the New 52, "five years ago" represents the birth of the JLA, not "all super-heroes". The JLA obviously formed well after (20+ years) after Batman comics began. This splits Batman's years into two parts - the "five year mainstream" part, and the vague "urban legend" period before that. The changeover from urban legend to mainstream superhero occurs about halfway through Dick's time as Robin. He just happened to stay home during Johns' new Darkseid JLA origin. (Or was hanging out with the Classic Titans - whichever floats my boat.)

----------


## kryslogan

> You're talking about Cassandra Cain, then. The new Batgirl run is vastly different. It's a bit reminiscent of Batgirl Year One, but much more soaked in modern trends.
> 
> I'd also recommend the new Catwoman (#35). It's really promising. It shifts the focus to mob drama, and is really well-written.


Ok, Imma get that too!

----------


## DurararaFTW

> 1. Hypertime.
> 
> 2. In the New 52, "five years ago" represents the birth of the JLA, not "all super-heroes". The JLA obviously formed well after (20+ years) after Batman comics began. This splits Batman's years into two parts - the "five year mainstream" part, and the vague "urban legend" period before that. The changeover from urban legend to mainstream superhero occurs about halfway through Dick's time as Robin. He just happened to stay home during Johns' new Darkseid JLA origin. (Or was hanging out with the Classic Titans - whichever floats my boat.)


Dick was still with the circus five years ago.

----------


## spark627

What did everyone think of Grayson 4? I think this was my favorite issue. I love that it focused on the fun side of Dick. Very curious to what role Midnighter is really playing.

Loved that this issue was pure fan service  :Smile:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Very enjoyable. Despite it being something of a "breather" episode, it still has some major consequences down the line. Supposedly, next month we're going to see the story arc take off a bit (and Tom King has been gushing about the art).

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Detective Comics #36 was ... strange. And about the only thing vaguely in-character concerning Dick is that he *spoilers:*
manages to "seduce" information out of a woman
*end of spoilers*.

----------


## Godlike13

> Detective Comics #36 was ... strange. And about the only thing vaguely in-character concerning Dick is that he *spoilers:*
> manages to "seduce" information out of a woman
> *end of spoilers*.


It was. All the inconsistencies aside though im glad to see other books at least trying to embrace Grayson.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I guess if you took out the first "interrogation" scene, it's not totally weird.

I wonder if other Bat books are gonna have Bruce call up "an old friend" for information.

----------


## K. Jones

> dick was still with the circus five years ago.


sssshhhhhhhh.

----------


## K. Jones

> I guess if you took out the first "interrogation" scene, it's not totally weird.
> 
> I wonder if other Bat books are gonna have Bruce call up "an old friend" for information.


Dick's a pretty nice guy, but in his goings on as Nightwing he's probably knocked some teeth out, right? How different is punching a guy in the face and messing up his teeth to just specifically targeting a tooth with some grips? The vigilante lifestyle does not make for squeaky clean hands on our old chum.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Dick's a pretty nice guy, but in his goings on as Nightwing he's probably knocked some teeth out, right? How different is punching a guy in the face and messing up his teeth to just specifically targeting a tooth with some grips? The vigilante lifestyle does not make for squeaky clean hands on our old chum.


It's really more the presentation than anything. Punching a thug in an alleyway and screaming "where is he!?" just comes across as a less gruesome image than electrocuting a guy tied to a chair. The latter scene just feels more deliberate and ruthless than the former.

----------


## dropkickjake

Just finished Grayson 4. It was fun, but possibly my least favorite so far. I can't help but wonder how this advanced much plot wise or established much to continue the Grayson universe. It potentially established 4 supporting characters, everything else just felt like a reminder. "We're still hunting down organs." "Midnighter is still involved."the bit between Helena and Dick was nice at the end. Gotta wonder if she is still just playing him. If the story arc is going to take off... I'd sure like for it to bet on with it.

----------


## Badou

They have to drag out this arc until April, so I think it moving slow is just how it is going to be until we get something new in June. Since the series is going to take a two month break for the band-aid project thing.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Just finished Grayson 4. It was fun, but possibly my least favorite so far. I can't help but wonder how this advanced much plot wise or established much to continue the Grayson universe. It potentially established 4 supporting characters, everything else just felt like a reminder. "We're still hunting down organs." "Midnighter is still involved."the bit between Helena and Dick was nice at the end. Gotta wonder if she is still just playing him. If the story arc is going to take off... I'd sure like for it to bet on with it.


According to King, a bigger arc starts to take off in issue 5 or 6.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Issue 5 ends the paragon arc and then the larger arc starts with midnighter in issue 6. I loved this issue,  I do not mind the quick change in tone since this is a new monthly so the have to establish the world and move the stoty along. It was an obvios the was to set up everything that id coming and it was funband a great homage to his past

----------


## brucekent12

Ive enjoyed the book so far overall.Cant wait to pick it up later today!.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Spoilers for the final issue of Grayson

http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10198...revious-post-x

----------


## Dzetoun

> Spoilers for the final issue of Grayson
> 
> http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10198...revious-post-x


 :Big Grin: .  Well, the end of the first arc, anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

Hilarious.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Tom King posted this link on Twitter.

http://nothingbutcomics.wordpress.co...ayson-tv-show/

----------


## RichSummers

> Spoilers for the final issue of Grayson
> 
> http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10198...revious-post-x


That would be hilarious.

----------


## Stormcrow

Do you guys follow the Teen Titans GO! cartoon? There was an issue a couple of weeks ago titled "The Mask" that was all about Dick's sexyness.

All the Titans are shocked by his beauty once he finally reveals what's underneath his mask and he defeats a villain by overwhelming her with his butt. It's ridiculously good stuff.

You can see the highlights on YouTube here!

----------


## The World

I just saw this Mikel Janin Grayson design and personally I find it much more eye catching than his design that's actually being use minus the goggles which make him look like an owl. Though I do prefer his hair that Janin went with in the actual comic.



There was a mask design for Helena that was really good looking too.

----------


## OWL45

> I just saw this Mikel Janin Grayson design and personally I find it much more eye catching than his design that's actually being use minus the goggles which make him look like an owl. Though I do prefer his hair that Janin went with in the actual comic.
> 
> 
> 
> There was a mask design for Helena that was really good looking too.


I really liked this design also for the same reasons you already stated.

----------


## Godlike13

Its the same design they're using. Just minus the mask, which he doesn't need, and different colors.

Though even though thanks to his implants he doesn't need a mask, that mask looks pretty cool. I wouldn't mind seeing it.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Mikel Janin is just a fantastic artist

----------


## BloodOps

> Mikel Janin is just a fantastic artist


Agreed, glad we have a high caliber artist like him on this book.

----------


## brucekent12

I'm glad they didn't go with the mask, too much like Nightwing IMHO. While I'm really enjoying the book overall, one little thing bothers me. Whats up with the spandex. To beeter blend in, wouldn't they be better off with casual wear or even suits than what hey're wearing?

----------


## spark627

> I'm glad they didn't go with the mask, too much like Nightwing IMHO. While I'm really enjoying the book overall, one little thing bothers me. Whats up with the spandex. To beeter blend in, wouldn't they be better off with casual wear or even suits than what hey're wearing?


Where is the spandex? Dick wears cargo pants, sneaks and a tight tshirt. Helena's outfit is tight, but I wouldn't call it spandex.

----------


## Csjbo08

The sales just came in for October, _Grayson_ checked in at 36th but the more important number is 52,849 and that's not including Digital issues (which is how I read _Grayson_).  The decline is to be expected but I'm hoping that the series ends up averaging around 40,000 as Nightwing was slightly lower than that.

----------


## M L A

> The sales just came in for October, _Grayson_ checked in at 36th but the more important number is 52,849 and that's not including Digital issues (which is how I read _Grayson_).  The decline is to be expected but I'm hoping that the series ends up averaging around 40,000 as Nightwing was slightly lower than that.


Very curious to see where it ends up in sales.
It's really weird where he's is a popular character, but the title itself is praised and the direction is still deemed controversial and just not wanted by a lot of fans.
Also sales will probably slowly sink until the title gets pulled into a crossover.

But yeah it'll probably be around Nightwing. Hope it's higher, but sales =/= quality, unfortunately.

----------


## Csjbo08

> Very curious to see where it ends up in sales.
> It's really weird where he's is a popular character, but the title itself is praised and the direction is still deemed controversial and just not wanted by a lot of fans.
> Also sales will probably slowly sink until the title gets pulled into a crossover.
> 
> But yeah it'll probably be around Nightwing. Hope it's higher, but sales =/= quality, unfortunately.


_Superior Spider-Man_ was praised and controversial but it still sold really well so I don't think the loud minority of Dick Grayson's fanbase is enough to really put a dent on the title.  From my experience, a lot of the people that swore of _Grayson_ also didn't read Kyle Higgin's _Nightwing_ run so the comic really won't lose much IMO.  I think the title can get by with very little crossovers, _Harley Quinn_ has shown that you can have a title free of crossovers and still sell really, really well.

Though I will say, don't understate the sales of Kyle Higgin's _Nightwing_ run, while I found it ok with only one or two arcs that were good (love Second City), at the tail end of the series _Nightwing #29_ it still sold 36k which placed it in the top 50 which placed it above Earth 2, Action Comics, Aquaman, Captain America, Superman, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Incredible Hulk, Iron Man.  Of course that's not including Digital where if that counted, that issue might have eclipsed Ms. Marvel and Thor: God of Thunder.  But if it can hover around 40k at the 30 issue mark (if it gets that far), I will very happy.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Sales seem pretty solid. Most of DC titles that outsold it were either #1s or had "Batman" in the title.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Very curious to see where it ends up in sales.
> It's really weird where he's is a popular character, but the title itself is praised and the direction is still deemed controversial and just not wanted by a lot of fans.
> Also sales will probably slowly sink until the title gets pulled into a crossover.
> 
> But yeah it'll probably be around Nightwing. Hope it's higher, but sales =/= quality, unfortunately.


Well, signs are good at the moment.  Sales for _Grayson 2_ were 56483.  Sales for _Grayson Futures End_ were 67109, but as that was gimmick month with variant covers it's difficult to know what to do with that number.  So a sale of _Grayson 3_ at 52849 is only a 6% drop from _Grayson 2_, a very small decline from a second to third issue, and an even smaller one from a second to a fourth issue if you want to count _Grayson Futures End_ as the third issue.  In other words, given the numbers we have, which are of course flawed and incomplete, sales seem to be stabilizing, which is what one would expect by the fourth issue.

If memory serves, sales of _Nightwing_ also initially stabilized around 53K.  One again, if memory serves that title then had a sales history characterized by some relatively sharp drops rather than the usual more gradual decline nearly all books suffer these days.  At the end it was selling around 37K (I'm not counting _Nightwing 30_, which was really a transition to _Grayson_).  In any case, whether memory serves or not, _Grayson_ appears to be hitting its first stability point about 43% higher than where _Nightwing_ left off, which I suspect everybody involved will count as a clear victory.

----------


## Dzetoun

Also, Newsarama, buried in its report about Harley Quinn and the _Suicide Squad_ movie, is saying that the Graysons may appear in Gotham this season.  No word on whether they will have a newborn son with them.

Graysons Coming to Gotham?

----------


## Godlike13

Cool  :Cool:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Not gonna lie, I dropped the show like a month ago. It was just too heavyhanded. Knowing the way the show handles "foreshadowing", they'll probably have Bruce say something like "Oh, you're having a son, Mrs. Grayson? Maybe he and I will be friends some day."

Either that, or they'll just introduce Dick Grayson as being 10-15 years older than Bruce, like pretty much every other character in Gotham :/

----------


## Csjbo08

I guess it'll be nice to see John and Mary Grayson on the show.

What I don't want to see is an episode called "A Bird Under the Wing" where clad-in-black Bruce Wayne meets he red-and-green wearing baby Richard Grayson for the first time in which John and Mary Grayson say "you're old enough to be his big brother" with a sweeping musical cue that further shoves Batman & Robin in our faces.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus



----------


## M L A

> 


Truly amazing.



What if we see a baby Robin though.
Can this happen.

----------


## OversizedLoad

There is a weirdly pessimistic reaction to the numbers. It's important to look at these numbers, sales & position, in context:
1. No digital numbers are reported 
2. Several new books/ new directions launched
3. Marvel has three events going on. One of which is of the 'major game changer' ilk.

Sales are strong, interest is strong, and institutional support is strong so I doubt there will be any major crossovers to derail this book in 'Season 2' or any 'Season' beyond that.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Also, remember when the CW planned to have this as a follow-up to Smallville?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> There is a weirdly pessimistic reaction to the numbers. It's important to look at these numbers, sales & position, in context:
> 1. No digital numbers are reported 
> 2. Several new books/ new directions launched
> 3. Marvel has three events going on. One of which is of the 'major game changer' ilk.
> 
> Sales are strong, interest is strong, and institutional support is strong so I doubt there will be any major crossovers to derail this book in 'Season 2' or any 'Season' beyond that.


I think everyone is cautiously optimistic. It's selling pretty well for a book without "Batman" or "Superman" in the title, and it did have fantastic launch numbers. I think positive word of mouth is going to help. It's also comforting that DC has added extra pages to the Grayson annual (according to Tom King), and that they'll be releasing the first trade as a hardcover.

----------


## Badou

It is off the pace of where the Nightwing series sold, but that isn't a big surprise. It's lack of crossover into a bigger book like Synder's Batman will hurt it some compared to Higgins' Nightwing book. I think the early involvement in the big Owls story greatly helped the Nightwing book and why it was one of DCs best sellers (especially in trade), but that book had very inconsistent art throughout its run too. Hopefully Grayson doesn't suffer from that as well.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> That is more your inference than their implication I think. It has not been explicitly stated. If we have learned anything from the way this show handles the DCU, its that we shouldn't rule anything out. We've got ARGUS, League of Assassins, Death stroke, hints at Firestorm and Killer Frost, Harley Quinn, the Suicide Squad, and plenty others. Grayson could easily exist in this universe if the producers chose to make it so. They could do it with his history as Robin intact if they wanted to as well.


Slade Wilson became Deathstroke because of Olivier Queen not in spite of him.  ARGUS doesn't mean other super-heroes ever existed. Suicide Squad as shown doesn't equal supervilliany, just crazy murderers. Harley Quinn doesn't even equal the Joker. The LoA and Ra's have always been primarily Batman villiains, so the fact the Arrow is now taking them on makes it pretty clear he is the Batman of this world.  Dick Grayson cannot exist in this world and maintain the importance and weight of his history.
Firestorm has been confirmed by cast & crew, and blatantly foreshadowed by the writers not seeded into the fabric of the shared universe. Killer Frost isn't Killer Frost, she's Caitlin Snow and a member of Team Flash.

----------


## dick_wingnut

Hope the sales continue to fall and this spy "experiment" dies a quick death.

Dick should be a super hero and part of the super hero community, that has always been his main strength.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think everyone is cautiously optimistic. It's selling pretty well for a book without "Batman" or "Superman" in the title, and it did have fantastic launch numbers. I think positive word of mouth is going to help. It's also comforting that DC has added extra pages to the Grayson annual (according to Tom King), and that they'll be releasing the first trade as a hardcover.


Cautious optimism is probably the way to go.  Certainly both DC and the creative team are projecting confidence.  

Just to pick a nit, it's true that Stephen Mooney has said the annual is a double sized issue, but King has clarified his remark about the extra pages.  He says that DC is giving them extra pages elsewhere to go into Helena's story (I assume in a _Secret Origins_ issue, although that may not be a valid assumption), thus freeing up the annual for the story they are now telling.

----------


## colossus34

> Do you guys follow the Teen Titans GO! cartoon? There was an issue a couple of weeks ago titled "The Mask" that was all about Dick's sexyness.
> 
> All the Titans are shocked by his beauty once he finally reveals what's underneath his mask and he defeats a villain by overwhelming her with his butt. It's ridiculously good stuff.
> 
> You can see the highlights on YouTube here!


Didnt watch the clip but that sounds cringe-worthy... he defeats a villain with his butt on a childerns' cartoon? Love to see the outpouring of hate if they had Starfire used her boobs to defeat Deathstroke but I doubt that would get through censors. Double standards for you.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Hope the sales continue to fall and this spy "experiment" dies a quick death.
> 
> Dick should be a super hero and part of the super hero community, that has always been his main strength.



His greatest strength is the force of his personality. Being part of the super-hero community just let it be seen.  *Spyral* & _Grayson_ however are going to let it shine.

----------


## dick_wingnut

His personality as he related to other heroes, not stupid morrison throw-away creations with dumb dick jokes and teen-titillating over sexualization.

bah. humbug.

----------


## Csjbo08

To be fair, _Grayson_ has had more of the DCU in its first four issues than the first four issues of Kyle Higgin's _Nightwing_ run.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> His personality as he related to other heroes, not stupid morrison throw-away creations with dumb dick jokes and teen-titillating over sexualization.
> 
> bah. humbug.


So you want to read Dick Grayson in a generic super-hero story with generic super-hero interactions. Cool. I'd rather read Dick Grayson in a story that challenges the character and the reader to think big and feel big. _Grayson_ does that every issue.

By the way Leviathan was a throw-away, Spyral was a masterstroke.

----------


## Claude

> His personality as he related to other heroes, not stupid morrison throw-away creations with dumb dick jokes and teen-titillating over sexualization.
> 
> bah. humbug.


If he was only worthwhile when relating to other heroes, then he should never have been given a solo.

Twenty-odd years since he was given one, it's perhaps time to let go.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Seeley and King's Grayson has been more of a Nightwing book than Higgins' Nightwing.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

This is the best possible path for Dick, he does not always have to be under spyral and become a freelance or Directer in the spy game and have really uncharted territory in the DCCU to build a nice little rogues gallery that he does not always have to share with other heroes. He needs to be challenged more and not be regulated to being a damsel in distress like in forever evil or jusg a batman lite working directly in his city when he is far more of a adventurer traveling around the world.

----------


## Godlike13

I don't know if this is the best possible path for Dick. Not sure if that is even knowable. Plus im not sure if there even should be just one right path for Dick. Never the less right now this spy path is fun and exciting. Things have become kind of new again with Dick, and he's seeing actual development again. And thats whats cool to see.

----------


## Diggy

Finally read the first issue. They nailed the vibe and it was fun to read. Looking forward to catchin up on this book! Hope it stays around (as long as it's good.)

----------


## byrd156

> So you want to read Dick Grayson in a generic super-hero story with generic super-hero interactions. Cool. I'd rather read Dick Grayson in a story that challenges the character and the reader to think big and feel big. _Grayson_ does that every issue.
> 
> By the way Leviathan was a throw-away, Spyral was a masterstroke.


Does it though?

I personally don't like the spy angle at all. No one really cares about spies in the DCU.

----------


## Godlike13

Cause they never really gave us a spy to care about.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Thats why this is his chance to carve out some real estate in te DCU with little chance to gets oushed into being overshadowed or stuck bei ng drawn into crossovers that mostly have him take a backbseat when he is capable ofvdoing so much more. The only way I see this going bad is if they drag on him reconnecting with the rest of the his friends and family to atleast establish he is alive. He can even change hus codename and costume back to something similar to the Nightwing perdona and have the spyral implants instead of the Domino mask

----------


## Yudansha

Im enjoying Grayson so far.  Its fun and definitely a new and uncharted territory for Dick.  Im on board for now.  I went in with very shaky expectations, but for the most part was pleasantly surprised.  Not sure if I see the whole spy thing lasting for a long time though, but DC seems to be sticking to their guns and might drag this out for years to come.  In the end it will be interesting if Dick sides with Spyral over Bruce when the Bat tries to make his move and take Spyral down.  I think they are building to a conflict between Spyral and the superhero community with Dick stuck in the middle.  Im interested to see how it all falls out in the end.  I can even see them taking out Minos and Dick taking control of the organization. Overall Grayson has already been better than most of Higgin's run on Nightwing so Im happy and interested to see where it is going.  At least Dick has finally found a foothold and consistent direction in the New 52.  Which is something he has been lacking since being demoted from being Batman to being a connectionless Nightwing.  And Helena is pretty awesome in this title.

----------


## dick_wingnut

> So you want to read Dick Grayson in a generic super-hero story with generic super-hero interactions. Cool. I'd rather read Dick Grayson in a story that challenges the character and the reader to think big and feel big. _Grayson_ does that every issue.
> 
> By the way Leviathan was a throw-away, Spyral was a masterstroke.


Yes, I want him back as a super hero and in stories as generic as possible and I dont want to think big of feel big. Thanks for replying though.




> If he was only worthwhile when relating to other heroes, then he should never have been given a solo.
> 
> Twenty-odd years since he was given one, it's perhaps time to let go.


Not only worthwhile when relating to other heroes, it was just the strongest aspect of his character built up over 30 something years.

Now he is totally sequestered from everyone that made him who he was, and his main rival is some garbage wildstorm character.

At least he isnt killing people.

----------


## Godlike13

> At least he isnt killing people.


Yet...

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dick_wingnut

lol I actually initially said yet with an ellipsis, but decided to delete it and end on a positive note.

----------


## HLOTS

> His personality as he related to other heroes, not stupid morrison throw-away creations with dumb dick jokes and teen-titillating over sexualization.
> 
> bah. humbug.


What not a fan of Magic Mike Grayson?!




> Yet...



He's torturing people now. That's a start.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It is off the pace of where the Nightwing series sold, but that isn't a big surprise. It's lack of crossover into a bigger book like Synder's Batman will hurt it some compared to Higgins' Nightwing book. I think the early involvement in the big Owls story greatly helped the Nightwing book and why it was one of DCs best sellers (especially in trade), but that book had very inconsistent art throughout its run too. Hopefully Grayson doesn't suffer from that as well.


It's true that, once you adjust for the return factor on the early issues of _Nightwing_, the fourth issue of that title sold about 7% more than the fourth issue of _Grayson_.  However, as you say, that is no great surprise considering that Nightwing was a more familiar and recognizable concept and, probably much more important, _Nightwing_ in the early days was still riding the wave from the New 52 relaunch.  I suspect had _Nightwing_ been launched a year later the numbers would have been significantly lower.

As for the crossover factor, the Court of Owls did give about a 15K bump, but it dissipated pretty much immediately and may have hurt in the long run due to the disruption of stories and character development.  In any case, the isolation of this title is only temporary, and Seeley has pretty much said there will be crossovers down the road, so the worry on that score seems a bit premature.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> It's true that, once you adjust for the return factor on the early issues of _Nightwing_, the fourth issue of that title sold about 7% more than the fourth issue of _Grayson_.  However, as you say, that is no great surprise considering that Nightwing was a more familiar and recognizable concept and, probably much more important, _Nightwing_ in the early days was still riding the wave from the New 52 relaunch.  I suspect had _Nightwing_ been launched a year later the numbers would have been significantly lower.
> 
> As for the crossover factor, the Court of Owls did give about a 15K bump, but it dissipated pretty much immediately and may have hurt in the long run due to the disruption of stories and character development.  In any case, the isolation of this title is only temporary, and Seeley has pretty much said there will be crossovers down the road, so the worry on that score seems a bit premature.


The first seven issues of Nightwing were a direct tie-in to Court of The Owls. 8 & 9 were 'Night of The Owls' crossover issues.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Does it though?
> 
> I personally don't like the spy angle at all. No one really cares about spies in the DCU.


It does. It really does. 
People are going to care about spies now that Dick Grayson is one.

----------


## Claude

so, have we all seen that Gail Simone is doing a two issue "Nightwing/Oracle" story for Convergence?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I know Nightwing was a great character and wont be made if the find a way for him to keep the title but Dick has always embraced change and and is at heart a performer. From Robin to Nightwing to Batman to Nightwing again and now Agent 37 he has always been Dick Grayson. That is what makes him unique in the DCU, he is not attached to the mask because at all times he is a true hero and with the sakes numbers not including the digital downloads which I use shows he can sell good despite not having a big tie to Batman/Superman Justice League

----------


## Claude

> Yes, I want him back as a super hero and in stories as generic as possible and I dont want to think big of feel big. Thanks for replying though.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only worthwhile when relating to other heroes, it was just the strongest aspect of his character built up over 30 something years.
> 
> Now he is totally sequestered from everyone that made him who he was, and his main rival is some garbage wildstorm character.
> 
> At least he isnt killing people.


Sorry, phone is playing up, forgive the lack of formatting and whittling down of your post:

Maybe its because I Wasn't There At The Time, but I've never got the whole "knowing everyone in the DCU was what made Dick special" thing. It was good when he'd turn up in other titles - Obsidian Age in JLA, Brave and the Bold, the odd issue of Johns' Teen Titans... But personally, and I've always assumed consensus to agree, I'd take Dixon's "Nightwing" over Grayson's "Titans". Morrisson's "Batman And Robin" over Robinson's "Justice League". And Officer Grayson could go a very long time without the JSA popping over for lunch, and the Flash never rocked up to take on Professor Pyg.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> so, have we all seen that Gail Simone is doing a two issue "Nightwing/Oracle" story for Convergence?


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56990
Sounds like it will be dreck. Two month vacation here I come.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Yes, I want him back as a super hero and in stories as generic as possible and I dont want to think big of feel big. Thanks for replying though.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only worthwhile when relating to other heroes, it was just the strongest aspect of his character built up over 30 something years.
> 
> Now he is totally sequestered from everyone that made him who he was, and his main rival is some garbage wildstorm character.
> 
> At least he isnt killing people.


He was just as sequestered when he was Nightwing. Mask or no mask makes no difference when the editors want to keep him irrelevant for the rest of the universe.

At least Grayson is fun.

----------


## M L A

> so, have we all seen that Gail Simone is doing a two issue "Nightwing/Oracle" story for Convergence?


More Dick and Barbara. Greeeeeeeeeeeat.
I wonder if there will be any WE BOTH WANT TO BUT IT JUST ISN'T THE RIGHT TIME FOR SOME UNEXPLAINED REASON or if it will just be written terribly or shit on any other love interests.



Why must the Batman and Robin one be Bruce and Damian??
Really we're about to get that in the main DCU, so this was pretty much the last chance for Dickbats...

----------


## Csjbo08

I'm not the biggest Dick/Babs shipper either.  I don't hate those two together but it is an overrated pairing and I think that Dick/Kori were a lot better and Dick/Helena had potential to great had DC developed it more because I thought that Dick and Helena worked well together.  There seems to be this "red string of fate" attached to Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon as though the first Robin and the first Batgirl are destined to be lovers with the Earth 2 version of them having kids and now in Convergence they are talking about marriage.  But.I.just.don't.see.it....


I would much rather see a Dick as Batman story or him with the Titans than to have another series push that these two are meant for each other.

----------


## Godlike13

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56990
> Sounds like it will be dreck. Two month vacation here I come.


Mwhahaha, it sounds delicious to me  :Cool: 




> More Dick and Barbara. Greeeeeeeeeeeat.
> I wonder if there will be any WE BOTH WANT TO BUT IT JUST ISN'T THE RIGHT TIME FOR SOME UNEXPLAINED REASON or if it will just be written terribly or shit on any other love interests.


Apparently they're getting married (Mwhahaha!). Sounds like its a last hurrah for some of the pre-New 52 versions, and chance for some last chance closure for those incarnations. Happy ever afters. 




> I would much rather see a Dick as Batman story or him with the Titans than to have another series push that these two are meant for each other.


The Titans mini-series is written by Fabian Nicieza, so id be surprised if Dick doesn't pop up.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Mwhahaha, it sounds delicious to me


Different strokes for different folks

----------


## Godlike13

Hahaha, and now the ep of TTGo where Dick and Babs are married is on. Thats funny.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

I'm a Dick/Babs shipper and although I'd like a happy ending, (I'd be a lot more tolerant of the N52 after that!) I'm not holding my breath! The description doesn't sound terribly promising. One of them will probably end up dead!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Wait, there's no Dickbats story? I thought one of the preview images showed a Batman that kinda looked like Dickbats.

----------


## Rakiduam

So the Batman in Batman and Robin isn't Dick, he isn't in the Titans story but here's  yet another story about Barbara and Dick...... pass.

----------


## Godlike13

> Wait, there's no Dickbats story? I thought one of the preview images showed a Batman that kinda looked like Dickbats.


Ya, apparently its Bruce and Damian. It does look like Dick's basuit in the preview image though. Honestly though, unless they were gonna get one of the people who wrote Dickbats during that time, its not much of an issue for me. Nothing against Ron Marz or anything, but it like with the Speed Force series. I mean there's Wally, and that awesome, but then i see Tony Bedard and im just like "huh?".

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, they haven't unveiled all of the stories yet, so who knows. Maybe Dickbats will be featured later. It seems like most of the Convergence stories are more or less re-visiting old fan favorites that got wiped out by the New 52, and giving them one last hurrah. Lord knows that Dickbats was a fan favorite. Maybe some of them will even return in the New 52 if sales do well enough.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Well, they haven't unveiled all of the stories yet, so who knows. Maybe Dickbats will be featured later. It seems like most of the Convergence stories are more or less re-visiting old fan favorites that got wiped out by the New 52, and giving them one last hurrah. Lord knows that Dickbats was a fan favorite. Maybe some of them will even return in the New 52 if sales do well enough.


Dick and Damian are a fan favorite, so what happened there?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I still think the original Convergence promo is showing Dickbats in panel #21. The way his cape is draped over his shoulders, and how he's (kind of) smiling, makes me think it's him. Plus, why else would they just show a regular version of Bruce Batman?

----------


## Godlike13

If it was Dickbats though, then why do that panel in a way thats so subtle about it.

----------


## Rakiduam

I have no idea why, probably the same reason they have the regular version of Batman and Robin

----------


## oasis1313

I'd like to see Dick actually get past his "I do" in a wedding, even if an imaginary one.  It would be adorable.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I'd like to see Dick actually get past his "I do" in a wedding, even if an imaginary one.  It would be adorable.


He did once, in that weird annual where he married that woman he thought was a murderer. But he had Donna destroy the marriage papers.

----------


## Claude

I'm not particularly invested in Dick/Babs - but it seems a nice shout-out to a period in both characters' lives that a lot of readers have affection for. Nightwing, Oracle, Gail Simone.... All three together isn't my thing, but then I have _Grayson._ 

And a two-part story by Greg Rucka about Renee Montoya as the Question dealing with Two Face. So I'm still pretty thrilled.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> It's true that, once you adjust for the return factor on the early issues of _Nightwing_, the fourth issue of that title sold about 7% more than the fourth issue of _Grayson_.  However, as you say, that is no great surprise considering that Nightwing was a more familiar and recognizable concept and, probably much more important, _Nightwing_ in the early days was still riding the wave from the New 52 relaunch.  I suspect had _Nightwing_ been launched a year later the numbers would have been significantly lower.
> 
> As for the crossover factor, the Court of Owls did give about a 15K bump, but it dissipated pretty much immediately and may have hurt in the long run due to the disruption of stories and character development.  In any case, the isolation of this title is only temporary, and Seeley has pretty much said there will be crossovers down the road, so the worry on that score seems a bit premature.


Yeah, but I think that if they called this Grayson title Nightwing then it would have sold just as well. Still like I have said before I don't want him to go back to Nightwing because of how worthless DC made that identity in the reboot. I mean it tells you how irrelevant he was when introducing Midnighter is actually a step up in terms of characters he has interacted with so far, haha. I mean Midnighter is like D list himself and sort of worthless so it shows the level of characters he was stuck with in Higgins' Nightwing. 

I'm still waiting on that big payoff with Grayson, and I don't know if I'll get it, but it is frustrating when there are so many big and important stories currently going on at DC and Dick isn't involved in any of them. That is what annoys me. Spyral isn't an organization I think is going to be around much beyond this creative team so I would like to see Dick involved in some longer lasting stories where the impact might be greater. I think that the best way to raise his profile and keep DC putting talent on his book is to have his character's importance increase by being involved in a lot bigger stories and characters. Beyond anything I'd like to see him be more than a prop in those big stories but I don't know if DC is interested in doing that. 




> So the Batman in Batman and Robin isn't Dick, he isn't in the Titans story but here's  yet another story about Barbara and Dick...... pass.


Yeah, I'm sick of Dick and Barbara at this point. I'd rather see him in the Titans story but it seems that is mainly going to focus on Roy, Starfire and Donna. Guess they want to keep the Roy and Starfire thing going for some reason.

Though I was really hoping for some more Dick and Damian from this at least, but oh well.

----------


## byrd156

After reading all the book's descriptions it's finally something I can get behind at DC that isn't in the future (JL3000) or have Dick in it (Grayson)

These are probably just happily ever after stories and we won't see these characters again for awhile or they die, that could happened too. I really hope Dick and Wally shows up in the Titans story and Roy gets Lian back. I'm probably going to get all these books except for the Question one, I didn't really like Montoya as the Question in the pre-52 anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

I like Nicieza, but that Titan story seems like it going to be along the lines of what made the Titans series not very good to begin with. Its kind of a shame that they're gonna waste the Titans and Donna's last hurrah on Roy and his drama. So honestly im not gonna mind if Dick isn't a part of that. 

And like i said, unless we were gonna get Dick and Damian from someone that was part of their era, whats the point. I doubt anyone would be able to give us a better last hurrah with Dick and Damian than the one Morrison did when he had Damian die saving Dick.

----------


## Kryptoniac

Best damn character in the DCU...I would've loved a Dick/Wally team up book as well when the new 52 was being formed(still do ;()..Also Grayson's the best the Dick's been in his solo since the Dixon era..lol at the naysayers

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Yeah, but I think that if they called this Grayson title Nightwing then it would have sold just as well. Still like I have said before I don't want him to go back to Nightwing because of how worthless DC made that identity in the reboot. I mean it tells you how irrelevant he was when introducing Midnighter is actually a step up in terms of characters he has interacted with so far, haha. I mean Midnighter is like D list himself and sort of worthless so it shows the level of characters he was stuck with in Higgins' Nightwing.


It would have sold much worse.  A _Nightwing_ title in the post-Forever Evil world, makes no sense and would have been a waste of paper. 
There is a weird idea that a Dick Grayson book needs constant guest-stars to showcase "connections" with other heroes.  Those "connections" are constantly hampering the character inundating him with their lameness. _Batman and Robin_ had no weirdo guest stars; no mentions or appearances by Titans, Teen or otherwise, and it was amazing. This book is creating a great vibe and seeding cool stuff in the DCU like making Midnighter, the gay Batman parallel, a dangerous & recurring adversary.  If the character is going to be a top publishing or other media property then creators shouldn't handicap themselves with unnecessary clutter like "connections".





> I'm still waiting on that big payoff with Grayson, and I don't know if I'll get it, but it is frustrating when there are so many big and important stories currently going on at DC and Dick isn't involved in any of them. That is what annoys me. Spyral isn't an organization I think is going to be around much beyond this creative team so I would like to see Dick involved in some longer lasting stories where the impact might be greater. I think that the best way to raise his profile and keep DC putting talent on his book is to have his character's importance increase by being involved in a lot bigger stories and characters. Beyond anything I'd like to see him be more than a prop in those big stories but I don't know if DC is interested in doing that.


Characters and books that get sucked into crossovers and other people's "big stories" get nothing from them. Also what big stories is he missing out on?

----------


## Yudansha

What's with all the Midnighter hate?  Granted he started out as a nock off Batman but he definitely grew into his own in the early issues of the Authority, which was itself a landmark  series.  But like all the other Wildstorm characters he has really fallen hard in recent years.  But he is still way batter then most of the characters Nightwing has been running around with lately.  And thankfully Midnighter is back in his traditional outfit and not that crap uniform he had at the start of the New 52 with the chin horn.  

And put my vote down for more Dick and Damian over Dick and Barbara.  But im not very excited for these convergent stories.  They seem like throwaway money grabs for past stories that don't have any relevance anymore, as popular as they were.  That and I officially have event fatigue.  Might just save my money, I need to trim my pull list down anyway.

As far as Dick in larger crossovers, I don't think Dick would get much out of it as far as character growth, that rarely happens for any characters involved, but it would create a temporary bump in sales and allow new readers to sample the title, which is usually the point of crossovers.  However I doubt it would create long term sales boosts.  You are either reading the title or not.  I don't think picking up a couple of issues to keep up with a crossover is really going to hook many new readers.  That and as I have said I have a bit of a case of event fatigue and really don't want to get drawn into buying even more books, and I think this is a prime example of people not picking up new books post crossovers.  But if Dick keeps being included in event stories over the years and is a major player in them, it seems more likely that Dick will become more of a marketing icon for DC and more will be done with him, there is a reason why Bats, Supes, WW etc. are in all major events.  But I think this would take time and Im note sure I would want to play the long game just to bump Dick up in sales/notoriety.  

Also just to throw this out there.  Dick can definitely stand on his own as a solo character, but I think the reset button on the DC continuity with the New 52 did hurt him a bit, and not just the fact that he had to give up being Batman.  Forever Evil and its fallout would have probably played out a lot different and had much more weight if other characters new/cared about Dick outside of just the Bat family.

----------


## byrd156

> Best damn character in the DCU...I would've loved a Dick/Wally team up book as well when the new 52 was being formed(still do ;()..Also Grayson's the best the Dick's been in his solo since the Dixon era..lol at the naysayers


I liked Nightwing's solo stuff after Dixon's run.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Kid A

> What's with all the Midnighter hate?  Granted he started out as a nock off Batman but he definitely grew into his own in the early issues of the Authority, which was itself a landmark  series.  But like all the other Wildstorm characters he has really fallen hard in recent years.  But he is still way batter then most of the characters Nightwing has been running around with lately.  And thankfully Midnighter is back in his traditional outfit and not that crap uniform he had at the start of the New 52 with the chin horn.


Midnighter was designed as an obvious analogue and satire of Batman, but when it comes down to it, they don't really have much in common.  S'like, someone like Daredevil or Green Arrow has more in common with Batman than Midnighter does.

----------


## M L A

> I liked Nightwing's solo stuff after Dixon's run.


Even tentacle monster Jason?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I liked Tomasi's Nightwing run towards the end. But those Devin Grayson and Bruce Jones runs...

----------


## Yudansha

> Midnighter was designed as an obvious analogue and satire of Batman, but when it comes down to it, they don't really have much in common.  S'like, someone like Daredevil or Green Arrow has more in common with Batman than Midnighter does.


Apollo and Midnighter were a satire of the Superman/Batman relationship.  But yeah, Midnighter definitely became his own unique and fun character, and he has a lot to offer if done right.

I actually enjoyed the Devin Grayson run.  It was right around One Year Later when the title really stared to crash for me, but it got good again at the end, right before Dick became Batman.

----------


## byrd156

> Even tentacle monster Jason?


I didn't say I liked all of it. Also I don't really like Jason in any form really.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Podcast with Tom King interview

http://thereforeigeek.com/2014/11/11...iter-tom-king/

----------


## dick_wingnut

> He was just as sequestered when he was Nightwing. Mask or no mask makes no difference when the editors want to keep him irrelevant for the rest of the universe.
> 
> At least Grayson is fun.


Fair point, at least as far as New 52 Nightwing went down.

The Dixon era book I could argue had guests from time to time, but still not too frequent.

Im happy that some of you are digging it, it just feels like such a huge unwelcome departure for this old school fan.

----------


## Godlike13

> Podcast with Tom King interview
> 
> http://thereforeigeek.com/2014/11/11...iter-tom-king/


This was a really good one. Nice share. They actually let him really talk for once.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I should read "A Once Crowded Sky"

And Grayson #5 is apparently Tom King's new favorite issue (after Grayson: Futures End)

get hype

----------


## Claude

> Podcast with Tom King interview
> 
> http://thereforeigeek.com/2014/11/11...iter-tom-king/


Thanks for the link!

It's nice to hear that, pretty undeniably, The Establishment Is Behind This. It's very sweet to hear King talk about hearing that Didio loved the pitch - "we want more like that" - and then the reception to the Future's End issue getting him a bunch more work.... It really is being _noticed_.

Wonder what he'll be on post-Convergence? Do we know of any vacancies coming up?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

They are really boosting Grayson # 5, first they said the art would be award winning and now they say it's gonna be tne best issue so far. I guess they are gonna try and go big since it is the end of the Paragon arc

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It's weird that it's being left out of the first trade (according to Amazon)

----------


## Godlike13

> I should read "A Once Crowded Sky"


Ya, it got me curious too.

----------


## Claude

> It's weird that it's being left out of the first trade (according to Amazon)


Maybe it cliffhangers into #6 pretty directly, so it makes sense to pack the first trade with standalones and the second with the little run of events?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Also just to throw this out there.  Dick can definitely stand on his own as a solo character, but I think the reset button on the DC continuity with the New 52 did hurt him a bit, and not just the fact that he had to give up being Batman.  Forever Evil and its fallout would have probably played out a lot different and had much more weight if other characters new/cared about Dick outside of just the Bat family.


Unfortunately, it seems that not even the Bat Family cares.  So the place to start would probably be with them.

----------


## Yudansha

> Unfortunately, it seems that not even the Bat Family cares.  So the place to start would probably be with them.


Yeah granted, they don't seem to broken up about Dick being "dead".  I guess the writers don't want to spend to much time on the characters grieving for somebody that the readers already know is still alive.  Its probably going to come back and bite Bruce considering that he agreed to lay all cards on the table with the family post DOTF and he is still deliberately keeping Dick a secret.  Maybe they were still numb after Damian.  They sort of did something similar with Stephanie when she "died", the writers new they were going to bring her back so there was never any shrine for her in the batcave.

----------


## Badou

> It would have sold much worse.  A _Nightwing_ title in the post-Forever Evil world, makes no sense and would have been a waste of paper. 
> There is a weird idea that a Dick Grayson book needs constant guest-stars to showcase "connections" with other heroes.  Those "connections" are constantly hampering the character inundating him with their lameness. _Batman and Robin_ had no weirdo guest stars; no mentions or appearances by Titans, Teen or otherwise, and it was amazing. This book is creating a great vibe and seeding cool stuff in the DCU like making Midnighter, the gay Batman parallel, a dangerous & recurring adversary.  If the character is going to be a top publishing or other media property then creators shouldn't handicap themselves with unnecessary clutter like "connections".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Characters and books that get sucked into crossovers and other people's "big stories" get nothing from them. Also what big stories is he missing out on?


No A new Nightwing book would have sold just as well if it had the same amount of promotion Grayson had. Maybe a little better since it is a known property and retailers might have been more willing to order more because of the past success of the series. Higgins' Nightwing book sold really well despite the problems I, and others in this thread, had with it. 

Anyway, I think you have missed my point entirely. I guess you haven't been around for a lot of the past discussions so I am going to have to repeat myself a lot here. 

I never said that I wanted him to have a ton of guest stars in his solo book anywhere in my post. You just took that on yourself to think that. What I want the character to do is have the freedom to be in other books and stories so he can increase his influence in the new universe and rebuild connections as I think that will lead to more long term success than his solo book having a pretty good run for a bit. Because of how the Grayson book is set up, with his "death", his character is very limited and already had to miss out on Eternal, rescuing Damian, helping fight Darkseid and his minions, and so on. I think it is fucking stupid to keep the character jailed to just his solo book when so much else is going on in the DCU, but I get why they had to because of what Johns decided to do. Keep the Gryason book like it is, I would prefer them leaving his solo book alone and crossover free, but I also want him to be involved in other stories at the same time like how other top characters are. That is how you grow a character. He isn't going to become a top character until he can do that. Him just fighting Spyral for the next 2-3 years isn't going to get him there. 

I get that DC doesn't value the character beyond a B-lister but I still want to set my expectations higher. Yes, Johns treated the character like garbage in Forever Evil and everyone agrees how they have handled the "death" thing has been terrible, but I don't want the character to be on the sidelines for everything now. Maybe eventually he can actually do something meaningful in a big story like FE. I would love the character to get to the point where someone like a Fraction, Aaron, Waid, Lemire, and so on wants to write the character for a run to leave their own mark, but to get to that point the character needs to be used more in other stories, and yes, rebuild and create new and important connections that can lead to better things down the road. Just pick up any book and you will see how important Connections are in superhero comics. I personally don't think the spy direction has a long shelf life because of how superhero stories are now, so I want to see the character do more and maximize his influence while he is actually getting some attention and promotion by DC as I don't know how long it will last. They already failed to capitalize a lot on the Forever Evil fallout, maybe if he was more important and had more connections then it would have been handled differently, but he can so quickly slip back to being an afterthought like how he was at the start of the reboot.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> No A new Nightwing book would have sold just as well if it had the same amount of promotion Grayson had. Maybe a little better since it is a known property and retailers might have been more willing to order more because of the past success of the series. Higgins' Nightwing book sold really well despite the problems I, and others in this thread, had with it. 
> 
> Anyway, I think you have missed my point entirely. I guess you haven't been around for a lot of the past discussions so I am going to have to repeat myself a lot here. 
> 
> I never said that I wanted him to have a ton of guest stars in his solo book anywhere in my post. You just took that on yourself to think that. What I want the character to do is have the freedom to be in other books and stories so he can increase his influence in the new universe and rebuild connections as I think that will lead to more long term success than his solo book having a pretty good run for a bit. Because of how the Grayson book is set up, with his "death", his character is very limited and already had to miss out on Eternal, rescuing Damian, helping fight Darkseid and his minions, and so on. I think it is fucking stupid to keep the character jailed to just his solo book when so much else is going on in the DCU, but I get why they had to because of what Johns decided to do. Keep the Gryason book like it is, I would prefer them leaving his solo book alone and crossover free, but I also want him to be involved in other stories at the same time like how other top characters are. That is how you grow a character. He isn't going to become a top character until he can do that. Him just fighting Spyral for the next 2-3 years isn't going to get him there. 
> 
> I get that DC doesn't value the character beyond a B-lister but I still want to set my expectations higher. Yes, Johns treated the character like garbage in Forever Evil and everyone agrees how they have handled the "death" thing has been terrible, but I don't want the character to be on the sidelines for everything now. Maybe eventually he can actually do something meaningful in a big story like FE. I would love the character to get to the point where someone like a Fraction, Aaron, Waid, Lemire, and so on wants to write the character for a run to leave their own mark, but to get to that point the character needs to be used more in other stories, and yes, rebuild and create new and important connections that can lead to better things down the road. Just pick up any book and you will see how important Connections are in superhero comics. I personally don't think the spy direction has a long shelf life because of how superhero stories are now, so I want to see the character do more and maximize his influence while he is actually getting some attention and promotion by DC as I don't know how long it will last. They already failed to capitalize a lot on the Forever Evil fallout, maybe if he was more important and had more connections then it would have been handled differently, but he can so quickly slip back to being an afterthought like how he was at the start of the reboot.


That was a very passionate post. I can tell you love the DG and want big things to happen for him.  Unfortunately I completely disagree with you on the current state of affairs. _Grayson_ isn't happening in a raindrop on Mars, it is a direct result of the *only* company wide-event. Sure Robin Rises is happening and I'm excited for Damian's comeback and wish Dick was along for the ride, but it's not his story he would just be window dressing. The kind of top stories you are describing aren't happening outside of Snyder/Capullo _Batman_ and Johns' _Justice League_.

If one of those luminaries wants to write a Dick Grayson story they should send DC a pitch. Please don't pretend that character status, A-ZZZ list, has anything to do with how interested any creator is in diving into a character. Fraction and Brubaker wrote fucking Iron Fist a few years ago, nobody cares about Iron Fist. Top creative talent goes after the characters and ideas that interest them. They could make a hit, a flop or completely phone it in. Eisner awards don't make characters or stories more interesting they just fluff creators' egos. 

Seeley and King have been very vocal about their excitement and big plans for the book and character. Unlike Higgins' disjointed disappointment of a run, teases from interviews ('Prince of Gotham') are actually making it onto printed pages.  For that alone they deserve an A+.  

Don't fret. Spies are hot right now, they were hot before, they will be hot later. Dick Grayson will be hot forever.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

From the intervies before the book started it seems that they are well aware that they don't want to keep him in the pretending to be dead mode too long and since all the technology they have introduced so far they have many ways to keep in contact and not reveal to the entire world tha he is alive. He could become someone whos exis8 is only known to the main heroes in the DCCU from bat family to the justice league.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I should read "A Once Crowded Sky"
> 
> And Grayson #5 is apparently Tom King's new favorite issue (after Grayson: Futures End)
> 
> get hype


King has a bit of the Snyder syndrome.  That isn't a terrible thing, but it does lead to periodic breathless rhapsodies of new favorite issues and upcoming plot elements that he "can't believe" they let him get away with.





> . 
> 
> I get that DC doesn't value the character beyond a B-lister but I still want to set my expectations higher. Yes, Johns treated the character like garbage in Forever Evil and everyone agrees how they have handled the "death" thing has been terrible, but I don't want the character to be on the sidelines for everything now. Maybe eventually he can actually do something meaningful in a big story like FE. I would love the character to get to the point where someone like a Fraction, Aaron, Waid, Lemire, and so on wants to write the character for a run to leave their own mark, but to get to that point the character needs to be used more in other stories, and yes, rebuild and create new and important connections that can lead to better things down the road. Just pick up any book and you will see how important Connections are in superhero comics. I personally don't think the spy direction has a long shelf life because of how superhero stories are now, so I want to see the character do more and maximize his influence while he is actually getting some attention and promotion by DC as I don't know how long it will last. They already failed to capitalize a lot on the Forever Evil fallout, maybe if he was more important and had more connections then it would have been handled differently, but he can so quickly slip back to being an afterthought like how he was at the start of the reboot.


In fairness, King did address some of the FE fallout issue (specifically the death thing) in his podcast, where he said that they didn't want to do months of mourning in _Grayson_ because DC had already done months of mourning for Damian and, perhaps more to the point, they didn't want the book to get bogged down in a sad and angst ridden tone.  That's all fair enough, and indeed admirable.  I think many of us feel that DC let Tomasi drag the Damian thing out *much* too long (it isn't done even now, almost two years after the fact) and the tone of the _Grayson_ book comes close to being pitch perfect.  As you say, though, almost everybody (around here, anyway) also feels that they went *much* too far in the other direction, to the point that it doesn't seem like the Bat family cares at all about what happened to Dick, or most of the time that they care that Dick even existed.   Having said that, Seeley did say on Twitter yesterday that we will definitely be seeing a reaction from Dick's family, so one can only have faith that he and King will make it appropriately epic.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> In fairness, King did address some of the FE fallout issue (specifically the death thing) in his podcast, where he said that they didn't want to do months of mourning in _Grayson_ because DC had already done months of mourning for Damian and, perhaps more to the point, they didn't want the book to get bogged down in a sad and angst ridden tone.  That's all fair enough, and indeed admirable.  I think many of us feel that DC let Tomasi drag the Damian thing out *much* too long (it isn't done even now, almost two years after the fact) and the tone of the _Grayson_ book comes close to being pitch perfect.  As you say, though, almost everybody (around here, anyway) also feels that they went *much* too far in the other direction, to the point that it doesn't seem like the Bat family cares at all about what happened to Dick, or most of the time that they care that Dick even existed.   Having said that, Seeley did say on Twitter yesterday that we will definitely be seeing a reaction from Dick's family, so one can only have faith that he and King will make it appropriately epic.


Babs hits on Tim, and Tim says, "I'm not Dick Grayson, either."

----------


## Godlike13

Funny thing is, Dick could pop back up and they wouldn't be able to recognize him. They should play on that.

----------


## Kryptoniac

Tom King is my new favourite person in comics.

----------


## Godlike13

It'll be interesting to see what his other projects are.

----------


## byrd156

tumblr_mkyu82MJek1qzioz2o1_500.jpg

You molded me and taught me, Bruce. For years, I lived under the shadow of The Batman. I wanted to get away, to be my own man. Yet, when I chose a costume and a name, they reflected you. You’re a part of me, Bruce. I can’t deny it. And I don’t want to any longer. I just wanted you to know that. That, and one other thing — I’m proud to have been Robin.

I decided to get on tumblr for the first time in awhile (ugh I hate tumblr) and found this. Not sure if this is actually something said or someone made it up but I thought it should be on here.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Funny thing is, Dick could pop back up and they wouldn't be able to recognize him. They should play on that.


Wouldn't be terribly surprised if they do something like that in the annual.  Isn't the theme spies and the lies they tell, now that they aren't doing Helena's origin?

----------


## Claude

> Wouldn't be terribly surprised if they do something like that in the annual.  Isn't the theme spies and the lies they tell, now that they aren't doing Helena's origin?


Although thinking about how King talks about his conversation with his wife about Agency Work - "can you promise me you'll be safe? No, I mean it, _promise_?" - I'd actually quite like it to be a Dick In Gotham story that ends with Bruce wanting to pull Dick out before it's too late for Reason X, and Dick going back in of his own accord. Maybe even "promising" Bruce that he's only there for the duration of the mission, and that he'll be back to join the merry Bat Family as soon as it's over. With his fingers crossed behind his back.

----------


## byrd156

> Although thinking about how King talks about his conversation with his wife about Agency Work - "can you promise me you'll be safe? No, I mean it, _promise_?" - I'd actually quite like it to be a Dick In Gotham story that ends with Bruce wanting to pull Dick out before it's too late for Reason X, and Dick going back in of his own accord. Maybe even "promising" Bruce that he's only there for the duration of the mission, and that he'll be back to join the merry Bat Family as soon as it's over. With his fingers crossed behind his back.


Or he could just come back to the family.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It'll be interesting to see what his other projects are.


I'm interested in what other projects King is involved with too. 




> Although thinking about how King talks about his conversation with his wife about Agency Work - "can you promise me you'll be safe? No, I mean it, _promise_?" - I'd actually quite like it to be a Dick In Gotham story that ends with Bruce wanting to pull Dick out before it's too late for Reason X, and Dick going back in of his own accord. Maybe even "promising" Bruce that he's only there for the duration of the mission, and that he'll be back to join the merry Bat Family as soon as it's over. With his fingers crossed behind his back.


I could see Dick doing that. He's not one to leave a mission unfinished no matter the danger to himself so he will remain there as long as the mission remains incomplete. In fact, it is likely he will remain there so long as he believes there is a mission to accomplish there. For example, he may decide to stick around Spyral after he takes down Minos if he believes he can turn the corrupt organization around by becoming it's head. 




> Or he could just come back to the family.


I'm pretty sure he will be "coming back to the family" at some point but that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't still be a member of Spyral while also being a part of the "superhero" family again. One doesn't necessarily preclude the other. As an example, Dick could continue with his solo work as Agent 37 but could also be called in to work a case by Batman or the Justice League under a masked hero identity of some sort. Heck, the hypnos seems tailor made to make it possible for him to return to being "Nightwing" should they want to go that route.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Going by what happened in Detective Comics #36, maybe we'll see Bruce/others (eventually) "call on an old friend" for favors. Perhaps after his mission is over, he'll reincorporate his Nightwing identity into his spy identity. "Agent Nightwing" or such.

----------


## Badou

> That was a very passionate post. I can tell you love the DG and want big things to happen for him.  Unfortunately I completely disagree with you on the current state of affairs. _Grayson_ isn't happening in a raindrop on Mars, it is a direct result of the *only* company wide-event. Sure Robin Rises is happening and I'm excited for Damian's comeback and wish Dick was along for the ride, but it's not his story he would just be window dressing. The kind of top stories you are describing aren't happening outside of Snyder/Capullo _Batman_ and Johns' _Justice League_.
> 
> If one of those luminaries wants to write a Dick Grayson story they should send DC a pitch. Please don't pretend that character status, A-ZZZ list, has anything to do with how interested any creator is in diving into a character. Fraction and Brubaker wrote fucking Iron Fist a few years ago, nobody cares about Iron Fist. Top creative talent goes after the characters and ideas that interest them. They could make a hit, a flop or completely phone it in. Eisner awards don't make characters or stories more interesting they just fluff creators' egos. 
> 
> Seeley and King have been very vocal about their excitement and big plans for the book and character. Unlike Higgins' disjointed disappointment of a run, teases from interviews ('Prince of Gotham') are actually making it onto printed pages.  For that alone they deserve an A+.  
> 
> Don't fret. Spies are hot right now, they were hot before, they will be hot later. Dick Grayson will be hot forever.


I still don't think spies have the utility superheroes have in comic stories. If they did you would see more given how much the industry likes to copy what is popular and ride trends. 

Well technically the book that was supposed to deal with the Forever Evil fallout was cancelled, and they had to quickly throw together the spy book to write the character out of the bat line because they didn't want to deal with the crap Johns did with the character. I'm not real high on Grayson but I think that they got lucky with it being a good book.

Unfortunately the status of a character is important in determining the type of talent that gets put on their book. Several years back Waid really wanted to write Nightwing but DC didn't let him and thought his talent was better used elsewhere. In the New 52 Marcus To begged DC to let him draw Nightwing but didn't let him even while Nightwing was having so many art problems. Higgins, King and Seeley dont have a ton of experience, namely Higgins and King, and DC still views the character as a stepping stone to test young talent. I'd like to see the character grow beyond that and be a place more writers want to go, and for that to happen I think he needs to increase his exposure and importance by being allowed to do more, especially when the character is actually getting some promotion. Look at how quickly Harley's character grew when they started to spread out her usage more. It works. 

Also I don't know if I said this before but I wouldn't be surprised if by this time next year Seeley moves on to something else given how much he is already doing. That is just something I wouldn't be that surprised at if it happens. 




> In fairness, King did address some of the FE fallout issue (specifically the death thing) in his podcast, where he said that they didn't want to do months of mourning in _Grayson_ because DC had already done months of mourning for Damian and, perhaps more to the point, they didn't want the book to get bogged down in a sad and angst ridden tone.  That's all fair enough, and indeed admirable.  I think many of us feel that DC let Tomasi drag the Damian thing out *much* too long (it isn't done even now, almost two years after the fact) and the tone of the _Grayson_ book comes close to being pitch perfect.  As you say, though, almost everybody (around here, anyway) also feels that they went *much* too far in the other direction, to the point that it doesn't seem like the Bat family cares at all about what happened to Dick, or most of the time that they care that Dick even existed.   Having said that, Seeley did say on Twitter yesterday that we will definitely be seeing a reaction from Dick's family, so one can only have faith that he and King will make it appropriately epic.


It is more than the death thing and the other heroes mourning him. Him having his identity exposed to the world and that having so little impact really goes to show how little the character mattered in the reboot. In some ways I was more bothered with the lack of development with that than the death thing because a hero getting their identity exposed is such a huge story, but it has just been handled terribly and ignored. It has been over a year since it happened aready. I get that the reason for it was because Dick doesn't know barely anyone in the reboot and the bat office didn't want to change their planned stories to deal with the mess Johns created, but it was such a waste. Johns should have never used the character and I think Grayson would be a much better book if it didn't have all this crap hanging over it.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> I still don't think spies have the utility superheroes have in comic stories. If they did you would see more given how much the industry likes to copy what is popular and ride trends. 
> 
> Well technically the book that was supposed to deal with the Forever Evil fallout was cancelled, and they had to quickly throw together the spy book to write the character out of the bat line because they didn't want to deal with the crap Johns did with the character. I'm not real high on Grayson but I think that they got lucky with it being a good book.
> 
> Unfortunately the status of a character is important in determining the type of talent that gets put on their book. Several years back Waid really wanted to write Nightwing but DC didn't let him and thought his talent was better used elsewhere. In the New 52 Marcus To begged DC to let him draw Nightwing but didn't let him even while Nightwing was having so many art problems. Higgins, King and Seeley dont have a ton of experience, namely Higgins and King, and DC still views the character as a stepping stone to test young talent. I'd like to see the character grow beyond that and be a place more writers want to go, and for that to happen I think he needs to increase his exposure and importance by being allowed to do more, especially when the character is actually getting some promotion. Look at how quickly Harley's character grew when they started to spread out her usage more. It works. 
> 
> Also I don't know if I said this before but I wouldn't be surprised if by this time next year Seeley moves on to something else given how much he is already doing. That is just something I wouldn't be that surprised at if it happens.


Off the top of my head I can think of six other spy books being published right now.  Three are being published at Marvel; _Black Widow_ by Edmonson, _Secret Avengers_ & The Bucky Barnes book both by Kot.  The other three are from Image, _Casanova_ by your boy Fraction, _Velvet_ by Brubaker and _ZERO_ by Kot.  That's not a bad sample set.  

Yeah I've read that Waid said he wanted to write Nightwing, Johns apparently said something similar but talk is cheap. He put that Superman 2000 pitch out there lets read this masterpiece of a Nightwing pitch he has squirreled away. I agree that Nightwing Vol_2 was weighed down by young hacks like Dixon, Wolfman, Devin Grayson, Bruce Jones & Tomasi. Truly a gross group of nobodies.  I want the best ideas for Dick Grayson being penned and pencilled by people that have love for the character. Great ideas & passion make great comics. Eisners =/= Quality.

I don't see Seeley leaving, this is his most high profile book and he is killing it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Also I don't know if I said this before but I wouldn't be surprised if by this time next year Seeley moves on to something else given how much he is already doing. That is just something I wouldn't be that surprised at if it happens.


Actually, at the moment I would expect King to be the more likely to go.  I am sure either would consider any offers that come their way.  But between _Grayson_ and _Eternal_, Seeley is in a very high-profile, and high-revenue spot.  He would have to sell a LOT of any new book to make up for leaving one or both of those.




> a
> It is more than the death thing and the other heroes mourning him. Him having his identity exposed to the world and that having so little impact really goes to show how little the character mattered in the reboot. In some ways I was more bothered with the lack of development with that than the death thing because a hero getting their identity exposed is such a huge story, but it has just been handled terribly and ignored. It has been over a year since it happened aready. I get that the reason for it was because Dick doesn't know barely anyone in the reboot and the bat office didn't want to change their planned stories to deal with the mess Johns created, but it was such a waste. Johns should have never used the character and I think Grayson would be a much better book if it didn't have all this crap hanging over it.


I don't think you will find very many people around here who disagree with you.  I think you could not realistically find better people in the Big Two to handle Grayson than Seeley and King.  But they were placed in an awful situation, and execution has not been perfect.  If the death has been handled terribly - and it has been, whatever Seeley and King's reasons and undoubted good intentions - then the handling of the unmasking has been a total travesty.  Like I say, I don't think all that many people around here would disagree with either of those statements.  And we can be mild compared to Tumblr.  I remember one comment that went something like "Of course Grayson is beloved.  After all, he was captured and tortured, beaten bloody by his father, and no one in his family can be bothered to mourn him for five minutes!  That's the very definition of beloved, isn't it?"

Unfortunately, none of us write the book, and the only thing we can do is hope and trust that Seeley and King will make up for the tumultuous and deeply disappointing beginning with an epic and affecting ending.  They are the best DC has for this assignment, and if they can't pull it off, nobody can.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Maybe it cliffhangers into #6 pretty directly, so it makes sense to pack the first trade with standalones and the second with the little run of events?


Or the trade will get changed again before publication, which may be more likely.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, King did say that the first "season" was #1-5, Futures End, and the Annual. Who knows.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well, King did say that the first "season" was #1-5, Futures End, and the Annual. Who knows.


Do you recall where he said that?  I don't doubt you, but I have heard that before and looked for it with no luck.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah granted, they don't seem to broken up about Dick being "dead".  I guess the writers don't want to spend to much time on the characters grieving for somebody that the readers already know is still alive.  Its probably going to come back and bite Bruce considering that he agreed to lay all cards on the table with the family post DOTF and he is still deliberately keeping Dick a secret.  Maybe they were still numb after Damian.  They sort of did something similar with Stephanie when she "died", the writers new they were going to bring her back so there was never any shrine for her in the batcave.


But on the other hand, since nobody if Dick's own FAMILY has noticed that he's dead, Dick Grayson could come back as Nightwing and none of the dullards inhabiting Earth Prime would even remember he was ever "outed" and killed.  Heck, the accumulated IQ of the entire planet is probably only about 23.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Do you recall where he said that?  I don't doubt you, but I have heard that before and looked for it with no luck.


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655

Well, his exact words were




> the series starts with basically seven one and done issues ("Grayson" #1-5 plus the Annual and "Futures End"), all of them centered around the collecting of these Paragon organs. We wanted to focus in the beginning on Dick Grayson as super spy, show how he uses the skills he acquired as Nightwing and Robin in this new environment. It should be noted that these issues are one and dones with consequences. The characters and emotional moments of all of these issues will play out over time. After issue #5 you'll see some longer arcs as we start to explore the larger story of what exactly Spyral is and how it impacts Dick's life and the greater DCU.


So maybe #5 is a one-and-done that ties into #6-8.

----------


## oasis1313

So where did Dick pick up the skill of jumping out of an airplane in a bright red wombat suit?  Oops, I guess we already know the answer to that . . . .

----------


## Dzetoun

Mark Doyle shows how an issue of _Grayson_ is put together on DC All Access:

Putting Together Grayson 3

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

So they almost made Agent 8 a redhead, huh?

----------


## Yudansha

> But on the other hand, since nobody if Dick's own FAMILY has noticed that he's dead, Dick Grayson could come back as Nightwing and none of the dullards inhabiting Earth Prime would even remember he was ever "outed" and killed.  Heck, the accumulated IQ of the entire planet is probably only about 23.


Personally I think it is ridiculous that nobody but Lex Luthor has figured out that Batman is Bruce Wayne after the outing of Nightwing.  It really shouldn't take more than someone with half a brain and internet access to figure out the identities of the entire Bat Family after the public outing of Dick Grayson.  But I guess we really shouldn't focus on that.

----------


## oasis1313

> Personally I think it is ridiculous that nobody but Lex Luthor has figured out that Batman is Bruce Wayne after the outing of Nightwing.  It really shouldn't take more than someone with half a brain and internet access to figure out the identities of the entire Bat Family after the public outing of Dick Grayson.  But I guess we really shouldn't focus on that.


Why NOT focus on that?  It's being used as an excuse to keep Dick away from the Bat-Family and any other friends he might have, but if that's what they want to do, it should have ramifications for the entire family.  It should out almost all of them.  Besides, it proves my point that people on Earth Prime are even more stupid than the ones on the Bizarro World.

----------


## Yudansha

> Why NOT focus on that?  It's being used as an excuse to keep Dick away from the Bat-Family and any other friends he might have, but if that's what they want to do, it should have ramifications for the entire family.  It should out almost all of them.  Besides, it proves my point that people on Earth Prime are even more stupid than the ones on the Bizarro World.



Probably because it opens up a whole can of worms that cant be put back easily, and it would force a whole line of stories that run contrary to what all the writers and editors of the bat line of titles are trying to do at the moment.  So we as readers are supposed to look the other way and just assume that no one that is less intelligent then Lex would put two and two together and figure it all out.  So yes, we have ramifications for Dick but apparently nobody else even though it makes little in the way of logical sense.  But at least we got a better Dick Grayson book out of it.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Probably because it opens up a whole can of worms that cant be put back easily, and it would force a whole line of stories that run contrary to what all the writers and editors of the bat line of titles are trying to do at the moment.  So we as readers are supposed to look the other way and just assume that no one that is less intelligent then Lex would put two and two together and figure it all out.  So yes, we have ramifications for Dick but apparently nobody else even though it makes little in the way of logical sense.  But at least we got a better Dick Grayson book out of it.


Yes. The whole thing is so very stupid and has been handled so very badly that you have to wonder if there was not a serious miscommunication between Johns and the Bat Office.  You almost suspect that the Bat Office must have assumed that Johns was only going to out Grayson to a circle of villains (which could have had the same effect as far as forcing a career change), and that they were caught flat-footed when he revealed Dick's identity to the entire world.  That seems even more possible when you consider the obvious lack of communication that surrounded the last issue of _Forever Evil_ and Dick's supposed death.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They'll probably end up just retconning the unmasking in the future anyway.

----------


## BloodOps

> They'll probably end up just retconning the unmasking in the future anyway.


Pretty much, when Dick returns to Nightwing(I say another year or two), they'll retcon the unmasking or have a magician change it so everyone forgets who Dick Grayson is except a few.

----------


## K. Jones

Just got to that King podcast. It was okay. He's passionate enough for all of them, I suppose! I'm eager for December, obviously, but I can't remember - is Secret Origins this month?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Just got to that King podcast. It was okay. He's passionate enough for all of them, I suppose! I'm eager for December, obviously, but I can't remember - is Secret Origins this month?


December is Dick month (Grayson and Earth 2 featuring Dickbabs in week 1, Annual and Secret Origins in week 3, I think)

----------


## Dzetoun

> December is Dick month (Grayson and Earth 2 featuring Dickbabs in week 1, Annual and Secret Origins in week 3, I think)


Annual and _Secret Origins_ on week four, which is Christmas Eve.  Think of it as a gift from the Comics Santa.  :Cool:

----------


## Dzetoun

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56655
> 
> So maybe #5 is a one-and-done that ties into #6-8.


It just occurred to me that they also may be trying to keep the trades as close to the same size as possible.  _Grayson 1-4_ plus _Secret Origins_ and the annual is 6.5 issue equivalents or so.  _Grayson 5-10_ and maybe a _Secret Origins_ for Helena would be 6.5 issue equivalents or so. It may be as simple as that.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It could be that DC wants to have two trades ready before Convergence begins. So #5-8 plus whatever extra pages they got for Helena, and maybe a crossover issue (or the Futures End issue).

----------


## The World

> They'll probably end up just retconning the unmasking in the future anyway.



Don't retcon anything, we got a much better book out of it. Just got forward with what you're doing, who cares if it effects the rest of the batfamily they're irrelevant to Grayson.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Don't retcon anything, we got a much better book out of it. Just got forward with what you're doing, who cares if it effects the rest of the batfamily they're irrelevant to Grayson.


Several of us around here, actually.

----------


## The World

But why is my question, this book is a lot better then what is being put out in most of the batline; You aren't happy with just having a good book?

----------


## Claude

> Several of us around here, actually.


Actually, I'm going to have to come down with The World on this one. I think that it's pretty undeniable that The Actual Issues Of _Grayson_ That We Have would not be improved by the inclusion of a sad Tim Drake or the like. It's why I've come round to Nightwing #30 being left off the trade, _Grayson_ isn't Installment X In The Continuing History Of The Bat-Verse. It's at _most_ Stage Four Of Dick Grayson, and more likely simply Stage One Of _Grayson._

Similarly, I have a real problem with the idea that this should have impacted the other books more. Dick Grayson should be having a huge effect, yes, but it should have _such_ a huge effect that the Bat Family characters would be constantly under the shadow of it. "Damian style" books where everyone looks a bit sad for a couple of pages and then carries on with what they're doing would be as unsatisfactory a response to the death of Dick as they were to Damian.

This is, of course, why it was such a _terrible_ idea to have everyone think he's dead. You're never going to sell it as an impactful event on the Bat Family properly without killing those books to a standstill, and so it should never have been done. But it is not the job of _Grayson_ or _Eternal_ to fix the mistakes of a previous editorial regime. Or even, really, to address them. Their job is to be the best they can be, and not throw good comics pages after bad in trying to fix pretty unfixable issues. Like Two Face being trained by Ninjas or most of the Nightwing #0 origin for Dick and Bruce, sometimes you deal with a problem by ignoring it as the best option.

The place to explore this was, obvious, Eternal. The fact that it hasn't is because it couldn't - plans changed too late in the day. It's a shame, but this is what we have. I think the general grousing about The Fact This Happened is reasonable and fair, but there's little be gained by continuing to grouse about it every subsequent month.



Best case scenario is that the Live Dick reveal in no more than six months will be able to claw back some ground and be an effective enough endpoint of the sub-plot that we can forgive the lacklustre way it was carried out. With maybe _one_ Annual from a title addressing it before then.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Actually, I'm going to have to come down with The World on this one. I think that it's pretty undeniable that The Actual Issues Of _Grayson_ That We Have would not be improved by the inclusion of a sad Tim Drake or the like. It's why I've come round to Nightwing #30 being left off the trade, _Grayson_ isn't Installment X In The Continuing History Of The Bat-Verse. It's at _most_ Stage Four Of Dick Grayson, and more likely simply Stage One Of _Grayson._
> 
> Similarly, I have a real problem with the idea that this should have impacted the other books more. Dick Grayson should be  a huge effect, yes, but it should have _such_ a huge effect that the Bat Family characters would be constantly under the shadow of it. "Damian style" books where everyone looks a bit sad for a couple of pages and then carries on with what they're doing would be as unsatisfactory a response to the death of Dick as they were to Damian.
> 
> This is, of course, why it was such a _terrible_ idea to have everyone think he's dead. You're never going to sell it as an impactful event on the Bat Family properly without killing those books to a standstill, and so it should never have been done. But it is not the job of _Grayson_ or _Eternal_ to fix the mistakes of a previous editorial regime. Or even, really, to address them. Their job is to be the best they can be, and not throw good comics pages after bad in trying to fix pretty unfixable issues. Like Two Face being trained by Ninjas or most of the Nightwing #0 origin for Dick and Bruce, sometimes you deal with a problem by ignoring it as the best option.
> 
> The place to explore this was, obvious, Eternal. The fact that it hasn't is because it couldn't - plans changed too late in the day. It's a shame, but this is what we have. I think the general grousing about The Fact This Happened is reasonable and fair, but there's little be gained by continuing to grouse about it every subsequent month.
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I don't want to go around a rose bush we have been around already, so suffice to say I don't think there is really that much disagreement with your basic point.  Even Seeley confessed that when he first heard about this premise he said "What? Why would you want to do THAT?". And I think almost everyone would breathe a sigh of relief if they just somehow brought this all to a half-way appropriate conclusion and then forever after treated it as "that year Dick did an internship with Spyral." I guess the only nit to pick is the idea that this all started with the death.  In fact, it's the unmasking that is the root of all evil, and should never, ever have been allowed under pretty much any circumstances. And they don't have the excuse of timing for not exploring THAT in _Eternal_.

I think the fear, though, is that we won't be allowed to let bad decisions die (which would probably involve retconning the unmasking  in effect or in fact). There is an awful suspicion that editorial might decide to use this to blow up the Bat Family again and do what they wanted to with DOTF but couldn't because Damian's death got in the way. Then we will have all the mess of that layered atop all the mess of this.  So if anyone felt assured that they would, in fact, just give a wink and say, in effect, "that was a Charlie Foxtrot, let's never mention it again, ever," then yeah, best to push as quickly as possible to the end.  But there is little confidence that such is in the cards.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

February's variant by Dan Panosian

----------


## Claude

> February's variant by Dan Panosian


That's rather fun. Harley Quinn Variants, or is she guesting?

----------


## Csjbo08

> That's rather fun. Harley Quinn Variants, or is she guesting?


The former

----------


## Claude

> Well, I don't want to go around a rose bush we have been around already, so suffice to say I don't think there is really that much disagreement with your basic point.  Even Seeley confessed that when he first heard about this premise he said "What? Why would you want to do THAT?". And I think almost everyone would breathe a sigh of relief if they just somehow brought this all to a half-way appropriate conclusion and then forever after treated it as "that year Dick did an internship with Spyral." I guess the only nit to pick is the idea that this all started with the death.  In fact, it's the unmasking that is the root of all evil, and should never, ever have been allowed under pretty much any circumstances. And they don't have the excuse of timing for not exploring THAT in _Eternal_.


See, I think they do. I take a *lot* of what Bleeding Cool say with a huge heap of salt, but they called the "Civil Warring" of Dick Grayson in advance and repeatedly said that was "planned to be the status quo for a long time" and "wouldn't just be a throwaway thing".

Presumably at one point the Tynion series would have been Outed Hero Dick Grayson following in directly from FE, eventually tieing into Eternal as per the Thanksgiving "Blonde Dick" teaser. In fact, running off the original Nightwing #30, that would probably have been a perfectly servicable reaction to the event. Not better than what we have, but probably good enough.

But once Dick was removed from Eternal, I really do think it would have been out of keeping to keep a focus on his "unmasking" in the story. It's like the "mourning" issue - if you spend too much time on an absent character, it's almost always to the detriment of your own story.




> I think the fear, though, is that we won't be allowed to let bad decisions die (which would probably involve retconning the unmasking  in effect or in fact). There is an awful suspicion that editorial might decide to use this to blow up the Bat Family again and do what they wanted to with DOTF but couldn't because Damian's death got in the way. Then we will have all the mess of that layered atop all the mess of this.  So if anyone felt assured that they would, in fact, just give a wink and say, in effect, "that was a Charlie Foxtrot, let's never mention it again, ever," then yeah, best to push as quickly as possible to the end.  But there is little confidence that such is in the cards.


Oh, do you think? I can't imagine there being much desire to "blow up the Bat Family" - not least because the Bat Family is currently _naturally_ spreading away, without a huge amount of acrimony. Dick's off doing his own thing, to which I suspect he'll return even when Alive Again, Barbara is off having her own differently styled adventures and Tim Drake hasn't been a Gotham Resident since the reboot! And all the plotting and Macro Ideas we've seen over the past few months have been aimed towards a _reconciliation_ rather than further fragmentation!

If I had to guess, I'd say this time next year we'd be looking at an OG Bat Family who've parted on good terms and doing their different things - Dick, Barbara, Jason and Bruce - and then a New Generation Bat Family going through all the Gotham Drama together, of Damian, Spoiler, Bluebird and Lark. The only real question in my mind is which group Tim would fall into.


Besides, you know my theory - about Dick taking on a role in some big DCU wide, Owlman-featuring Event next year. I think we'll probably get - even as soon as Secret Origins? - a streamlined reason as to _why_ Dick is a spy and seperate to the Family, but short of a sales meltdown I think this is where we are for now. Heck, if Didio really is behind this and my beloved Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle series from the old continuity is any guide, maybe even a sales meltdown wont stop it!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> If I had to guess, I'd say this time next year we'd be looking at an OG Bat Family who've parted on good terms and doing their different things - Dick, Barbara, Jason and Bruce - and then a New Generation Bat Family going through all the Gotham Drama together, of Damian, Spoiler, Bluebird and Lark. The only real question in my mind is which group Tim would fall into.


I see this happening. Snyder's been hinting at increased roles for Harper, Cullen, and possibly Duke, and this frees up the others to go off into their own solo/group adventures.

----------


## Claude

> I see this happening. Snyder's been hinting at increased roles for Harper, Cullen, and possibly Duke, and this frees up the others to go off into their own solo/group adventures.


Which makes Eternal 2: This Time It's Eternaler all the more interesting. Would it feature both groups, and try and fit them in more organically than they did Batwoman this year? Use it to help bed in The New Kids if they didn't have their own title(s) by then?

Or, outside bet that I've shared with Dzetoun before, The Story Of Dick, Barbara, Jason And Tim - with occasional Bruce appearances and representing those characters' only interactions together whilst Generation Two tell their more interconnected stories in their own book and the main Batman title.




> The former


Ah, nice - just had a look. That "Batgirl" one is excellent - clever, witty and fun.  :Big Grin: 

Although there seems to be scant justification for Harley Quinn Month, and so I'd _really_ hope they go ahead with a Dick/Robin theme month later in the year for the anniversary!

----------


## Dzetoun

> Oh, do you think? I can't imagine there being much desire to "blow up the Bat Family" - not least because the Bat Family is currently _naturally_ spreading away, without a huge amount of acrimony. Dick's off doing his own thing, to which I suspect he'll return even when Alive Again, Barbara is off having her own differently styled adventures and Tim Drake hasn't been a Gotham Resident since the reboot! And all the plotting and Macro Ideas we've seen over the past few months have been aimed towards a _reconciliation_ rather than further fragmentation!


I certainly *hope* it isn't where we are headed.  But Snyder wants very much to explore his _Tec 27_ direction, and that can probably best be accomplished by isolating Bruce and forcing him to believe that becoming "eternal" is his only option.  And we do have hints from _Batgirl_ and _Catwoman_ (I believe Selina said something to the effect that "We are well past the point where you need to be giving lectures about family,") that something bad has happened.  Also, the appearance of Dick in _Batman and Robin_ did not seem to bode well at all.  Against that, we have signs of reconciliation, as you say.  Seeley has even out and out said that he strongly prefers the Bat Family to remain just that, and King goes out of his way these days to sing the praises of Bruce as a father.   Snyder has also talked about the importance of the younger generation, but then again an explosion between Bruce and the older "children" would allow an opening to develop the next layer of the family.  So, I would give it about 50/50 at the moment.




> Besides, you know my theory - about Dick taking on a role in some big DCU wide, Owlman-featuring Event next year. I think we'll probably get - even as soon as Secret Origins? - a streamlined reason as to _why_ Dick is a spy and seperate to the Family, but short of a sales meltdown I think this is where we are for now. Heck, if Didio really is behind this and my beloved Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle series from the old continuity is any guide, maybe even a sales meltdown wont stop it!


I hope you are right about the Owlman stuff, even though I am sure some people regard the idea of Johns getting his hands on the character again with some consternation.  I also agree that this (Superagent Grayson) is very much the direction of the future, as Didio's remarks should have made clear to about everyone.   That is a good thing.  Up to this point, at least, _Grayson_ is to _Nightwing_ as the sun to the moon.  Nevertheless, it's a shame we could not have gotten here without the multiple Charlie Foxtrots.  Hopefully, in absolute terms _Grayson_ will be even better once this mess from _Forever Evil_ is no longer hanging over it.  




> Although there seems to be scant justification for Harley Quinn Month, and so I'd _really_ hope they go ahead with a Dick/Robin theme month later in the year for the anniversary!


I'm sure they feel that money is all the justification they need.  I agree about the Dick/Robin month, but we are facing another Charlie Foxtrot there, since the anniversary falls squarely in the middle of the move to California.  Maybe if the Owlman stuff comes to pass, they can work the Robin anniversary into that someway or another.  Given King's penchant for experimental issues, it would be nice to have him do something in which he mirrors the career of Robin with that of Talon.

Oh, which reminds me of something else related to the main question.  Should Damian return as Robin, and should his memories be intact, I think even the most cynical will scream with frustration and indignation should there not be a powerful reaction from him at the news of Dick's death.  Not predicting what will happen in the story, mind you, just what the reaction among readers will be.

And in terms of the two generations of the Bat Family, I say Tim stays with the New Generation.  _Teen Titans_ isn't the strongest property in the world, even now, and he and Bluebird seem to have a thing going.  :Smile:   As for the older generation, by this time next year Jason is going to need another gig, unless the numbers on _RHATO_ turn around.  I think JasonTodd has a good idea.  Instead of bemoaning and avoiding the mystical aspects that Tynion handled so badly, they should embrace them and turn Jason into a wandering Samurai figure.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It'd be a perfect cliffhanger. Father-son reunion at last, as Damian takes a look around the room and asks, "Where's Grayson?"

----------


## Dzetoun

> It'd be a perfect cliffhanger. Father-son reunion at last, as Damian takes a look around the room and asks, "Where's Grayson?"


Absolutely.  Problem is, what happens the next month when they plunge off the cliff?  Of course, maybe Damian can fly now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

<hopeful, but not likely>
Maybe there's a reason why we're not getting a Dick/Damian team-up in Convergence
</hopeful>

----------


## Dzetoun

> <hopeful, but not likely>
> Maybe there's a reason why we're not getting a Dick/Damian team-up in Convergence
> </hopeful>


Well, there is this possibility:

Tell me the truth, Father

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Come on, Bat office. Don't let tumblr outdo you here.

----------


## Claude

Well, we *do* know that all DC titles have been instructed to be at Point X before Convergence, and "Grayson" was pitched on the assumption that it would establish itself to a certain point by then....

I _have_ wondered if one of King's new gigs he's spoken about might be Batman And Robin. Dick'n'Damian is obviously the best, but Bruce'n'Dick'n'Damian is better than just the kid and his dad alone.....

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I think they Need to just dedicate a issue in Batman/Detective comics to reconcile Dick/Damien and finally be done with killing off these character

----------


## oasis1313

If there is a Robin month commemorating the 75th, it will not be celebrated as 75 years of Dick Grayson.

----------


## Dzetoun

> If there is a Robin month commemorating the 75th, it will not be celebrated as 75 years of Dick Grayson.


Yes, that is yet another problem.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I think they Need to just dedicate a issue in Batman/Detective comics to reconcile Dick/Damien and finally be done with killing off these character


Interestingly enough, the description for "Batman and Robin, Vol. 6: The Hunt for Robin" hardcover on Amazon lists issues #29-39, which leaves a one-shot in March before Convergence. Hmmm.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Interestingly enough, the description for "Batman and Robin, Vol. 6: The Hunt for Robin" hardcover on Amazon lists issues #29-39, which leaves a one-shot in March before Convergence. Hmmm.


That is interesting, but it may just be a placeholder like the original advert for the _Grayson_ hardcover.  I am especially suspicious because the cover art is from _Robin Rises: Omega_ but that isn't listed among the collected issues.  It would seem a much more logical collection would be _Batman and Robin 29-37_, _Robin Rises: Omega_, and _Robin Rises: Alpha_.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think they Need to just dedicate a issue in Batman/Detective comics to reconcile Dick/Damien and finally be done with killing off these character


You know, I wonder, is there anyone around who thinks the "death" plotline for Grayson was a good idea?  I mean, a really good narrative element, not just a practical dodge to deal with other issues?  Opinion is sharply divided about Damian's death, and I have seen many strongly argued posts talking about why that was a powerful, important, and well-crafted development.  But I honestly don't think I have seen or heard a single strong defense of the death for Grayson.  The most I have seen is an occasional half-hearted comment along the lines of "well, they had to do something about the unmasking," and I honestly haven't seen many of those.  If anyone wants to make a strong defense of the plotline as important in its own right, it would be interesting to read for the sake of variety.  :Smile:

----------


## coffeelad

There is no good defense.
It's so pointless, especially because they don't even examine the aftermath and the effect his death has on the people in his life. At the very least, the supporting characters in the Nightwing series or the members of the batfam should have had single issue grief arcs or wtv. But they're wasting all the dramatic potential.

And Grayson is a great series, but they could have done it without the death. In fact, I can see two or three very obvious paths they could have taken to get to the Spyral arc.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

I haven't seen any positive comments about the death storyline. As coffeelad said, there were plenty of other ways they could have got him to this point, without destroying any reasonable way of bringing Nightwing back if they want to. As it is, I see no way around that without a retcon and that's a total cop-out.

It could have provided some really good angst but we didn't get that either...

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, they've been pretty dodgy about even acknowledging who knows he's alive. I imagine that Convergence will probably just steathily retcon a few things in the background.

----------


## byrd156

> Well, they've been pretty dodgy about even acknowledging who knows he's alive. I imagine that Convergence will probably just steathily retcon a few things in the background.


What's the longest series DC is publishing right now? It's around 30ish issues right? How many things need or have been retconned already?

----------


## Csjbo08

I don't know if anyone has played Lego Batman: 3, it's a pretty fun game even though Conan O'Brien is getting on my f*I%)ng nerves.  Agent Grayson is a surprisingly competent character that can be used a lot in free play missions, Nightwing not so much but he has a few side missions that are kind of funny and make him seem a little unstable.

----------


## M L A

dicks poor life 2.jpg

Poor Dick's life. Reminder this all happened in like five years.

----------


## brucekent12

I'm enjoying Grayson, but the situation was handled poorly. DC treats Dick like they treat Lois on Superman. Poorly.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Attachment 13086
> 
> Poor Dick's life. Reminder this all happened in like five years.


One Hell of a resume. Remember when he went from male fashion model to museum curator to running Wayne Enterprises?

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm enjoying Grayson, but the situation was handled poorly. DC treats Dick like they treat Lois on Superman. Poorly.


Does that mean Didio hates Lois ALMOST as much as Grayson?

One Hell of a resume. Remember when he went from male fashion model to museum curator to running Wayne Enterprises? 

DC would never let that stick.  Didio wants Dick portrayed as too stupid to run Wayne Enterprises--or be a museum curator--or even be a male model.

----------


## Godlike13

DC shouldn't let that stick. Running Wayne Enterprises would probably be hell for Dick, and i was never a fan of the whole museum curator thing. I don't think Dick has the attention span for that kind of work. Not that i think he can't do it, he could probably do it just fine. I just think for him it'd be boring.

----------


## Rac7d*

> DC shouldn't let that stick. Running Wayne Enterprises would probably be hell for Dick, and i was never a fan of the whole museum curator thing. I don't think Dick has the attention span for that kind of work. Not that i think he can't do it, he could probably do it just fine. I just think for him it'd be boring.


I liked him as a cop

----------


## Godlike13

Me too.
...

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Remember when he was a mob enforcer on crutches?

----------


## M L A

> Remember when he was a mob enforcer on crutches?


I try not to.

----------


## Godlike13

> I try not to.


Ha! This is exactly what I was going to say.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ha! This is exactly what I was going to say.


Them was dark days.  I have no idea why that storyline was approved.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Ask the editor who let Devin Grayson write a rape scene.

----------


## dropkickjake

I actually loved the museum curator thing. Granted, that's partially because I was a history major, and I'm a sucker for an Indiana Jones type story.

----------


## America / Bucky / Russia

Anyone been watching the _Nightwing_ fan series on YouTube?

I've really been enjoying Higgins run on the book and also _Grayson_ now, despite the fact girls at British private schools don't say such words as "candy". Ah well. The art has definitely been just superb though.

----------


## bearman

Given Dick's personality, I always wished the writers would send him to Social Work school.... and he could take over the charitable wayne foundation.
 he could jet set around the world on humanitarian/spy missions.
 Gerry

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

http://www.newsarama.com/22741-dc-co...llections.html

Well, 75th anniversary hardcover anthology of Robin, The Boy Wonder is coming out in April. At least it's Dick on the cover.

----------


## OversizedLoad

grayson7.jpg

GRAYSON #7
Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Dan Panosian.

Grayson and Helena must battle their old foes, the Fist of Cain!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Feb. 4.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Attachment 13202
> 
> GRAYSON #7
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Dan Panosian.
> 
> Grayson and Helena must battle their old foes, the Fist of Cain!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Feb. 4.


That is glorious.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Attachment 13202
> 
> GRAYSON #7
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Dan Panosian.
> 
> Grayson and Helena must battle their old foes, the Fist of Cain!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Feb. 4.


They have old foes? how long has it been?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They were the cannon fodder in Nightwing #30.

----------


## oasis1313

> Given Dick's personality, I always wished the writers would send him to Social Work school.... and he could take over the charitable wayne foundation.
>  he could jet set around the world on humanitarian/spy missions.
>  Gerry


Social work wouldn't be good for Dick--it's not a fun job.  I think, given his looks and personality, something like Public Relations President of Wayne Enterprises would be good.  Keep it all in the family.

----------


## K. Jones

> Social work wouldn't be good for Dick--it's not a fun job.  I think, given his looks and personality, something like Public Relations President of Wayne Enterprises would be good.  Keep it all in the family.


I know real life thinking doesn't matter for comics, and I know that nepotism rules, but he'd totally need an MBA for a job like that, and Dick Grayson is a college dropout.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Thoe fist of cain seems interesting considering it comes after the battle with midnighter,  I wonder what the outcome of the battle is and how it impacts Dick with spyral

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Maybe a Cassandra Cain connection? Highly doubtful, but still.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Social work wouldn't be good for Dick--it's not a fun job.  I think, given his looks and personality, something like Public Relations President of Wayne Enterprises would be good.  Keep it all in the family.


 Dick has the good looks, and charm to do really do anything. Charisma counts for so much. Is he being paid as a spy? If i remember right, Dick lost his small fortune after joker showed up and blew up his life coincidentally. He needs money so if goes back to being nightwing he wont have to work in a bar

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'd imagine that Bruce has to be paying him something considering what Dick is doing for him. Then again, it doesn't look like Bruce will be able to hold onto his fortune, either.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'd imagine that Bruce has to be paying him something considering what Dick is doing for him. Then again, it doesn't look like Bruce will be able to hold onto his fortune, either.


Dick doesnt take handouts from bruce Like his Father he is too proud

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

He got to have a nice little stash saved up, besides with all the training he has had Dick probably would know how to survive by any means since it not like he come from money

----------


## Dzetoun

> Maybe a Cassandra Cain connection? Highly doubtful, but still.


Well, the Fist of Cain is a biblical reference.  I don't know that there has ever been any reason, other than the name coincidence, to suspect a connection with David Cain.

----------


## K. Jones

> Well, the Fist of Cain is a biblical reference.  I don't know that there has ever been any reason, other than the name coincidence, to suspect a connection with David Cain.


Well, there's also the fact that their modus operandi seems to resemble a certain tack David Cain had toward how he raised Mad Dog (and Mad Dog's fashion sense). But yeah, it's grasping at straws. Cain (and Kane) are heavily used in all kind of Batman stories. The Fist of Cain brought David and Cassandra to my mind but it also brought Rucka's Crime Bible and Vandal Savage stuff to my mind as well. The Rock and the Red Rage. Just in the New 52, Cain was also the name of that powerful vampire sire who "fathered" Andrew Bennett.

Moreover the symbolism is a little blatant. Cain is the brother who betrayed his brother via violence. If Dick has to, I don't know, kill somebody with that gun ... he's sort of betraying Bruce. And he'll probably beat himself up about it worse than Bruce will, actually. Dick'll be absolutely gutted if it happens. (But not crippled emotionally by it.)

Either way, their flamboyant, performative (even "performance art") style is highly apropos for Dick Grayson bad guys and I've been curious about them since their onset.

----------


## Claude

> Either way, their flamboyant, performative (even "performance art") style is highly apropos for Dick Grayson bad guys and I've been curious about them since their onset.


Yeah, they're a great foe for him - but we're right back to the wierd situation whereby anyone just reading the trades will be confronted with an "old foe" for Dick and Helena that hasn't actually appeared before!

I suppose how they're brought back in will affect the ongoing fluctuation of my "collecting Nightwing #30 away from the _Grayson_ series" opinion.

----------


## Conway

> He got to have a nice little stash saved up, besides with all the training he has had Dick probably would know how to survive by any means since it not like he come from money


He was wiped out after the Joker destroyed his circus in DotF. He had spent every penny he had and took some financing to get that project off the ground. That's why he went to Chicago to be a bartender. I think he does still own Amusement Mile though. That is a huge chunk of Gotham waterfront that I'm sure he could turn into something.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Yeah, they're a great foe for him - but we're right back to the wierd situation whereby anyone just reading the trades will be confronted with an "old foe" for Dick and Helena that hasn't actually appeared before!
> 
> I suppose how they're brought back in will affect the ongoing fluctuation of my "collecting Nightwing #30 away from the _Grayson_ series" opinion.


Chuckle. Given how useless solicits often are, I would not put much money on the "old foe" part coming through.  As far as _Nightwing 30_, I guess I would, for the moment, be guided by Seeley and King.  They appear to have stepped pretty firmly away from some of the themes and emphases put forth in that issue, and King is openly saying that if he had it to do again he would write his portion very differently.  So given that the writers themselves appear to have partially disavowed it, it's probably best to keep it out of the collection.  It's possible that the _Secret Origins_ pages and/or the annual have been written partly to cover the ground of a "missing" _Nightwing 30_.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He was wiped out after the Joker destroyed his circus in DotF. He had spent every penny he had and took some financing to get that project off the ground. That's why he went to Chicago to be a bartender. I think he does still own Amusement Mile though. That is a huge chunk of Gotham waterfront that I'm sure he could turn into something.


except he is legally dead, as in publicly unlike damian. Who knows where that property goes. Its not like Dick has anyone to give anything to

----------


## Vinsanity

I guess it went to the bank he got the financing from. The one that Sonia worked for before she got the axe.

----------


## byrd156

Linkara just released his review of Detective comics #38 for secret origins month. I didn't realize that the crane/construction fight in Robin's Reckoning was an homage to the origin story. It's almost shot for shot except for the killing.

----------


## oasis1313

> except he is legally dead, as in publicly unlike damian. Who knows where that property goes. Its not like Dick has anyone to give anything to


It doesn't appear clear to me that Dick Grayson is legally dead.  Maybe he could come back and just change his name to Gray Dickson.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It doesn't appear clear to me that Dick Grayson is legally dead.  Maybe he could come back and just change his name to Gray Dickson.


Yet another issue that has not been appropriately addressed. :Wink:

----------


## Godlike13

Issues like that don't really matter though. Plus right now its a non issue.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Issues like that don't really matter though. Plus right now its a non issue.


That particular issue, no.   :Wink:   The underlying issues, yes, they do.

----------


## Dzetoun

And, in Dick Grayson news from another corner of the fictional universe, the showrunner of _Gotham_ says he is taking a prenatal approach to Robin.  By that he means there will be a storyline that features the meeting and romance of John Grayson and his future wife, Mary.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...aking_bulletin

----------


## Csjbo08

Meh, there are many aspects of Dick Grayson's character that I want explored on TV or in Film but how his parents met and fell in love is not one of them.  It's still hard for me to find reasons to care about _Gotham_ as the whole premise revolves around answering questions that I never cared to ask.

On another note, any word on the Teen Titans TV show for TNT, I saw a report that said it was going to be changed to Outsiders but the source didn't seem credible at all.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> And, in Dick Grayson news from another corner of the fictional universe, the showrunner of _Gotham_ says he is taking a prenatal approach to Robin.  By that he means there will be a storyline that features the meeting and romance of John Grayson and his future wife, Mary.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...aking_bulletin



"Hey Mary, I hope our future son is a nice guy, and not a dick."

----------


## Dzetoun

> Meh, there are many aspects of Dick Grayson's character that I want explored on TV or in Film but how his parents met and fell in love is not one of them.  It's still hard for me to find reasons to care about _Gotham_ as the whole premise revolves around answering questions that I never cared to ask.
> 
> On another note, any word on the Teen Titans TV show for TNT, I saw a report that said it was going to be changed to Outsiders but the source didn't seem credible at all.


Actually, what that story says is that WGN America was developing a series called _Titans_ that had nothing to do with the comic book property.  In the wake of the TNT announcement, WGN America has apparently changed the name of its show to _Outsiders_ so as to avoid a conflict with TNT.  _Outsiders_ also has nothing to do with the comic book.  Although the source isn't the best, there is nothing implausible about the story.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Meh, there are many aspects of Dick Grayson's character that I want explored on TV or in Film but how his parents met and fell in love is not one of them.  It's still hard for me to find reasons to care about _Gotham_ as the whole premise revolves around answering questions that I never cared to ask.
> 
> On another note, any word on the Teen Titans TV show for TNT, I saw a report that said it was going to be changed to Outsiders but the source didn't seem credible at all.


There was a time when the CW wanted to make a "Smallville" version of Dick called "The Graysons".

----------


## Darkgreed

I have a question, i saw the new cover for grayson coming out for feb. 
Is that the new huntress?

----------


## Godlike13

Its not the new Huntress, but the new Helena Bertinelli.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I have a question, i saw the new cover for grayson coming out for feb. 
> Is that the new huntress?


New 52 Huntress is Helena Wayne from Earth 2.
Grayson's partner is Helena Bertinelli (aka Matron).

----------


## oasis1313

> And, in Dick Grayson news from another corner of the fictional universe, the showrunner of _Gotham_ says he is taking a prenatal approach to Robin.  By that he means there will be a storyline that features the meeting and romance of John Grayson and his future wife, Mary.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...aking_bulletin


 John, Mary, and Embryo Grayson might give me a reason to care about this show.  This past week's episode was rotten.

----------


## brucekent12

Unless the producers move up the show's timeframe several years to age Bruce and Selina, you won't have to see baby Grayson.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Unless the producers move up the show's timeframe several years to age Bruce and Selina, you won't have to see baby Grayson.


Actually, in most versions of the mythos Bruce is about 12 to 15 years older than Dick.  Given that Bruce and Selina are in the 13 y.o. range in _Gotham_, Baby Robin should be coming along sometime the next 24 months of story chronology.

----------


## Claude

> John, Mary, and Embryo Grayson might give me a reason to care about this show.  This past week's episode was rotten.


I just imagine you watching the show each week, shouting that every time Mary Grayson has a glass of wine or John makes an imprudent long-term business investment that it's _proof_ that DC hates Dick.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Actually, in most versions of the mythos Bruce is about 12 to 15 years older than Dick.  Given that Bruce and Selina are in the 13 y.o. range in _Gotham_, Baby Robin should be coming along sometime the next 24 months of story chronology.


In the New 52, I believe that Bruce is only 10 years older. He's stated to be 25 during Zero Year, and Higgins said that Dick is 21, despite having gone through a lot in only 5 years, and looking a lot older than the college girls he's living with.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I just imagine you watching the show each week, shouting that every time Mary Grayson has a glass of wine or John makes an imprudent long-term business investment that it's _proof_ that DC hates Dick.


Now, if the show featured a corrupt abortionist who looks just like Dan Didio, I think half the internet would feel it was only honesty.

----------


## Claude

> Now, if the show featured a corrupt abortionist who looks just like Dan Didio, I think half the internet would feel it was only honesty.


 :Big Grin: 


Today's Thought For The Day: _Grayson_ as continuation, rather than legacy, of Morrison.

The first trade of this series has been announced, starting with #1 rather than Nightwing #30, and will be out next year. My question is, what impact would it have on the series for the trade reading order to be _Batman And Robin Must Die_/_Batman Incorporated_/_Demon's Star_/_Gotham's Most Wanted_/_Agents Of Spyral_, rather than reading the series parallel with _Eternal_ and after Higgins' run?

For a stare, the whole premise would seem different. The strictly Gotham-bound Batman who Dick is in contact with would seem to be obeying Kathy Kane's warning to stop thinking so big, whereas Dick's recruitment by Spyral would seem pretty natural - he is the one who figures out Kathy's involvement, and - with Tim - seems to have a lengthy conversation with her "off panel" that seems to genuinely convince him of her/the organisation's relative good intentions.

The only real sticking point in such a direct transition is that it makes Dick and Bruce seem pretty callous in not mentioning Damian - but given that the _alternative_ characterisation was Dick's kinda-creepy "Damian was a solider, and soldiers die in wars" words of comfort in _Batman And Nightwing_, it's not the great loss it could have been....

----------


## Dzetoun

> Today's Thought For The Day: _Grayson_ as continuation, rather than legacy, of Morrison.
> 
> The first trade of this series has been announced, starting with #1 rather than Nightwing #30, and will be out next year. My question is, what impact would it have on the series for the trade reading order to be _Batman And Robin Must Die_/_Batman Incorporated_/_Demon's Star_/_Gotham's Most Wanted_/_Agents Of Spyral_, rather than reading the series parallel with _Eternal_ and after Higgins' run?
> 
> For a stare, the whole premise would seem different. The strictly Gotham-bound Batman who Dick is in contact with would seem to be obeying Kathy Kane's warning to stop thinking so big, whereas Dick's recruitment by Spyral would seem pretty natural - he is the one who figures out Kathy's involvement, and - with Tim - seems to have a lengthy conversation with her "off panel" that seems to genuinely convince him of her/the organisation's relative good intentions.
> 
> The only real sticking point in such a direct transition is that it makes Dick and Bruce seem pretty callous in not mentioning Damian - but given that the _alternative_ characterisation was Dick's kinda-creepy "Damian was a solider, and soldiers die in wars" words of comfort in _Batman And Nightwing_, it's not the great loss it could have been....


That's pretty good.  It certainly fits with Seeley and King's apparent decision to distance themselves from _Nightwing #30_ and its themes.  I suspect the upcoming trade will open with Seeley's _Secret Origins_ piece, and I would not be surprised if it is crafted in such a way to allow readers to glide right over the last _Nightwing_.

I would propose something even more radical in terms of characterization.  And this is only about emotional tone and  characterization, not actual continuity.  While reading the interactions between Bruce and Dick in _Grayson_, I was struck with an odd sense of surprise (these didn't seem the conversations they had hinted at in early interviews) and familiarity.  I have seen these two before ... somewhere.  And then it struck me.  These aren't Bruce and Dick from the New 52, and really not even from Morrison.  These two, in terms of their interactions, stepped straight out of the Silver Age.  For them _No Man's Land_ and _War Games_ never happened.  They didn't endure _Knightfall_, or _A Death in the Family_, or _A Lonely Place of Dying_.  In emotional terms, this Dick was never Nightwing at all.  He's Robin from the Silver Age, all grown up and not given to blushes anymore, but Robin nonetheless, and still in firm contact with his best buddy in the whole world.  These are the two who put giant pennies and dinosaurs in the Bat Cave, the two who wouldn't be at all surprised to find Aunt Harriet in the suburbs or Bookworm with a new job.  This is the cheery daredevil Robin, and the warm-voiced Batman who started smiling in 1940 and never really stopped.  And if that seems silly, ask yourself this.  If Batman signed off with "Talk to you later, chum," would anybody really be surprised?

----------


## Claude

> That's pretty good.  It certainly fits with Seeley and King's apparent decision to distance themselves from _Nightwing #30_ and its themes.  I suspect the upcoming trade will open with Seeley's _Secret Origins_ piece, and I would not be surprised if it is crafted in such a way to allow readers to glide right over the last _Nightwing_.


It's certainly possible. Likely, even, the first volume of Batman Inc started with the #0 issue that was published partway through the story - and the Hows And Whys of Dick's recruitment to Spyral _really_ need straightening out now that the ground has settled. And, frankly, a quick recap of Batman Inc from Dick's point of view, and "Kathy Kane told me I should come knock at your door if I ever needed to, and I want in", with a secret thumbs up behind his back to Bruce, would just about cover it.




> I would propose something even more radical in terms of characterization.  And this is only about emotional tone and  characterization, not actual continuity.  While reading the interactions between Bruce and Dick in _Grayson_, I was struck with an odd sense of surprise (these didn't seem the conversations they had hinted at in early interviews) and familiarity.  I have seen these two before ... somewhere.  And then it struck me.  These aren't Bruce and Dick from the New 52, and really not even from Morrison.  These two, in terms of their interactions, stepped straight out of the Silver Age.  For them _No Man's Land_ and _War Games_ never happened.  They didn't endure _Knightfall_, or _A Death in the Family_, or _A Lonely Place of Dying_.  In emotional terms, this Dick was never Nightwing at all.  He's Robin from the Silver Age, all grown up and not given to blushes anymore, but Robin nonetheless, and still in firm contact with his best buddy in the whole world.  These are the two who put giant pennies and dinosaurs in the Bat Cave, the two who wouldn't be at all surprised to find Aunt Harriet in the suburbs or Bookworm with a new job.  This is the cheery daredevil Robin, and the warm-voiced Batman who started smiling in 1940 and never really stopped.  And if that seems silly, ask yourself this.  If Batman signed off with "Talk to you later, chum," would anybody really be surprised?


What was it Tom King called them? "The best friends in the DCU"?

Although I like to think that The Goddam Batman will still be out breaking Harper Row's nose because he's saaaaaa-aaaaad, or venting his own blood over the people of Gotham (WTF Hurwitz?) - and then have Alfred hold all his calls when he gets home in case Dick wants to use their Super Secret Spy Radios to talk about that picnic again. 

I think you're absolutely right. Other writers have tended to show Bruce and Dick having a strong but turbulent relationship, mostly to show that Dick Is His Own Man, that sees them come to loggerheads over one particular issue and then reconcile. Bruce's funding of the Outsiders, chosing Azrael to be NuBatman, the slow development of a kind of Dynamic Trio born out of them _both_ bringing in Tim Drake that was born out of Dick's reaction to Bruce's handling of Jason's death...

(The latter, incidentally, may not feature my favourite stories or style of Batman - but it's a beautiful idea that serves all three characters, and is told over a nice period of time. Exactly the sort of thing that Damian's death never had.)

Even Morrison never really had them _interact_ - Bruce was the lead, then Dick was the lead, then Bruce was the lead - with the few exceptions showing a relaxed assumption of competence and friendliness from each to each.


And that seems to be the key thing here - Snyder clearly loves both characters, but couldn't put them in a room together without one of them making a point about the other. Higgins kept them apart as best he could, with his one true Guest Starring Batman issue a post DOTF/Damian Death mopefest where they can barely be civil. But Seeley and King just seem relaxed enough about about Dick's greatness, and with no need to prove it - there was, again, a rather insightful comment from King that he thought it was better drama and more true to the characters to treat an argument or disagreement between as an unusual statement of the nature of the stakes. What Would It Take For Them To Clash, rather than treating both characters as a clash waiting to happen.

And I think you're right - whenever either of them talk about The Core Of Dick Grayson, his fundamental qualities, in interviews? They talk about Robin.

Which is why noone cares that, so far, Batman has been in _every single issue_ of Dick's exciting new title. You pop back 12 months and tell people on the CBR _that_ was going to happen, see how they react!

----------


## oasis1313

I'm pretty bored with Dick Struggling To Be His Own Man.  At best, this struggle has only been in Dick's mind--nobody else's.  And how long has it been going on now?  Thirty years or so?  DC Editorial has milked this cow dry.   I think he should get comfortable in his own brain with the person he is--it's all that's emotionally holding him back now.

----------


## Csjbo08

> I would propose something even more radical in terms of characterization.  And this is only about emotional tone and  characterization, not actual continuity.  While reading the interactions between Bruce and Dick in _Grayson_, I was struck with an odd sense of surprise (these didn't seem the conversations they had hinted at in early interviews) and familiarity.  I have seen these two before ... somewhere.  And then it struck me.  These aren't Bruce and Dick from the New 52, and really not even from Morrison.  These two, in terms of their interactions, stepped straight out of the Silver Age.  For them _No Man's Land_ and _War Games_ never happened.  They didn't endure _Knightfall_, or _A Death in the Family_, or _A Lonely Place of Dying_.  In emotional terms, this Dick was never Nightwing at all.  He's Robin from the Silver Age, all grown up and not given to blushes anymore, but Robin nonetheless, and still in firm contact with his best buddy in the whole world.  These are the two who put giant pennies and dinosaurs in the Bat Cave, the two who wouldn't be at all surprised to find Aunt Harriet in the suburbs or Bookworm with a new job.  This is the cheery daredevil Robin, and the warm-voiced Batman who started smiling in 1940 and never really stopped.  And if that seems silly, ask yourself this.  If Batman signed off with "Talk to you later, chum," would anybody really be surprised?


That certainly fits with one of the main ideas of _Grayson_ which is Dick being put into a situation that he is not familiar with and teams up with a female character whose relationship he has with her ultimately ends up with him questioning some of the ideas Bruce put in his head and as a result Dick becoming a more independent character.  I don't think I need to explaiN which siTuaTion this mirrors except that the SpeciFic ideas that Dick will question will be different.

----------


## tako

> That certainly fits with one of the main ideas of _Grayson_ which is Dick being put into a situation that he is not familiar with and teams up with a female character whose relationship he has with her ultimately ends up with him questioning some of the ideas Bruce put in his head and as a result Dick becoming a more independent character.  I don't think I need to explaiN which siTuaTion this mirrors except that the SpeciFic ideas that Dick will question will be different.


hello subliminal messaging

----------


## Dzetoun

> It's certainly possible. Likely, even, the first volume of Batman Inc started with the #0 issue that was published partway through the story - and the Hows And Whys of Dick's recruitment to Spyral _really_ need straightening out now that the ground has settled. And, frankly, a quick recap of Batman Inc from Dick's point of view, and "Kathy Kane told me I should come knock at your door if I ever needed to, and I want in", with a secret thumbs up behind his back to Bruce, would just about cover it.
> 
> 
> 
> What was it Tom King called them? "The best friends in the DCU"?
> 
> Although I like to think that The Goddam Batman will still be out breaking Harper Row's nose because he's saaaaaa-aaaaad, or venting his own blood over the people of Gotham (WTF Hurwitz?) - and then have Alfred hold all his calls when he gets home in case Dick wants to use their Super Secret Spy Radios to talk about that picnic again. 
> 
> I think you're absolutely right. Other writers have tended to show Bruce and Dick having a strong but turbulent relationship, mostly to show that Dick Is His Own Man, that sees them come to loggerheads over one particular issue and then reconcile. Bruce's funding of the Outsiders, chosing Azrael to be NuBatman, the slow development of a kind of Dynamic Trio born out of them _both_ bringing in Tim Drake that was born out of Dick's reaction to Bruce's handling of Jason's death...
> ...



All very true.  The only nit I would pick is that the statements you mention were actually made by Seeley, not King.  King in his early interviews was talking about Bruce and Dick fighting "a lot" over the nature of Dick's mission, and how doing good by causing pain to his family would cause Dick to go "a little crazy" from all the stress and angst.  We may see that yet, but King seemed to indicate in his last podcast that Seeley had pushed him to move away from all that.  Seeley, on the other hand, likes to talk about Dick as the "happy Robin" and "humanist Robin" and how he and Bruce are "the best buddies that could possibly be."  I don't want to predicate lots of tension between the two, just a different approach, with Seeley's the more dominant since they decided to suppress the darker themes and implications of _Nightwing #30_.  

Personally, I suspect that Seeley would rather just retcon _Forever Evil_, or at least it's fallout for Dick, and call  it a day. They really are in a no win situation.  If they honor what was put forth in _Forever Evil_, the entire book will be consumed with sadness and dark angst.  If they don't, they don't get any setup accomplished and the final reveal may bring forth as many boos as cheers.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, it'll come down to what happens in the Secret Origins issue (and maybe even the Annual). It seems that they're intentionally keeping the Forever Evil fallout as vague as possible just to have that breathing space when "the reveal" happens.

In addition to being "the two best buddies", I like that Dick and Bruce talk to each other not as superior and subordinate, but more as equal co-conspirators. In the last couple of issues, we've seen Bruce take orders from Dick without question, apologize for mistakes, and even freak out over the nanomachines (with Dick having to do the reassuring, saying "we'll figure out a way"). It reminds me of their relationship in the second season of Young Justice, where Batman treats Nightwing as a peer, and it's implied that Dick took up the Nightwing mantle without ever having a falling out with Bruce.

----------


## Dzetoun

> In addition to being "the two best buddies", I like that Dick and Bruce talk to each other not as superior and subordinate, but more as equal co-conspirators. In the last couple of issues, we've seen Bruce take orders from Dick without question, apologize for mistakes, and even freak out over the nanomachines (with Dick having to do the reassuring, saying "we'll figure out a way"). It reminds me of their relationship in the second season of Young Justice, where Batman treats Nightwing as a peer, and it's implied that Dick took up the Nightwing mantle without ever having a falling out with Bruce.


Yes.  This actually *is* something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized.  I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots.  That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn.  Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.  

To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO."  It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian.  To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of _Grayson_, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce. 

And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city.  Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham.  Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that."  As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.

----------


## tako

> Yes.  This actually *is* something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized.  I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots.  That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn.  Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.  
> 
> *To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO."  It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian.  To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of Grayson, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce. 
> *
> And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city.  Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham.  Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that."  As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.


I think that's more than just Snyder's gotham, really. It's been a thing at DC long before Snyder came by. 
Dick Grayson as the only thing Batman ever did right is a long running trope in DC Comics.
unless you mean something else. idk.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose *and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man*


I agree entirely on this. The Nightwing identity has suffered from this a lot whenever this is constantly brought up in-story and interviews, and ends up seeming more like a case of teenage rebellion or this being just a phase.

----------


## M L A

> I love the Bruce and Dick interactions so far as it recalls when they were partners working on a case for a greater purpose and not a over emphasis on establishing that he is his own man because that is childish and does not establish that he is his own man


Ugh, yes. He's had this problem for some time, just going back and forth between GOTTA BE MY OWN MAN and WAIT A MINUTE DOES BRUCE THINK I'M AN ACCOMPLISHED INDIVIDUAL..... oh ok he does, now where was I.. oh yeah, GOTTA DO MY OWN THING. It worked during NTT and the whole Azbats/Prodigal/new to Bludhaven thing (if you like continuity). But when it just keeps happening it just makes me roll my eyes tbh.

----------


## BloodOps

> In addition to being "the two best buddies", I like that Dick and Bruce talk to each other not as superior and subordinate, but more as equal co-conspirators. In the last couple of issues, we've seen Bruce take orders from Dick without question, apologize for mistakes, and even freak out over the nanomachines (with Dick having to do the reassuring, saying "we'll figure out a way"). It reminds me of their relationship in the second season of Young Justice, where Batman treats Nightwing as a peer, and it's implied that Dick took up the Nightwing mantle without ever having a falling out with Bruce.


Probably my favorite thing they're doing right now. Bruce see's Dick as an equal at this point in his career, apart of the family but his own man. Which it should be imo.

----------


## Godlike13

Its fans that tend to bring up being his "own man" and the "shadow of the bat" more then they actually do in comics. Though at the same time, non of Dick's previous series had Bruce as part of the supporting cast. That is something new that King/Seeley has done.

----------


## K. Jones

Thank God Bruce cured Dick of Gotham affliction and succeeded in making him un-dark before the mid-Eighties, am I right?

If he'd become Nightwing in 1987 it would've been the result of brutality or something. Or more likely Babs or Starfire getting fridged.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Thank God Bruce cured Dick of Gotham affliction and succeeded in making him un-dark before the mid-Eighties, am I right?
> 
> If he'd become Nightwing in 1987 it would've been the result of brutality or something. Or more likely Babs or Starfire getting fridged.


The origin Max Allan Collins did post-Crisis wasn't awful. And, of course, they managed to keep Tim Drake's initial origin free of that kind of stuff, at least so far as Tim himself was concerned. But yeah, the 1986-1989 period was pretty horrible.

----------


## Claude

> All very true.  The only nit I would pick is that the statements you mention were actually made by Seeley, not King.  King in his early interviews was talking about Bruce and Dick fighting "a lot" over the nature of Dick's mission, and how doing good by causing pain to his family would cause Dick to go "a little crazy" from all the stress and angst.  We may see that yet, but King seemed to indicate in his last podcast that Seeley had pushed him to move away from all that.  Seeley, on the other hand, likes to talk about Dick as the "happy Robin" and "humanist Robin" and how he and Bruce are "the best buddies that could possibly be."  I don't want to predicate lots of tension between the two, just a different approach, with Seeley's the more dominant since they decided to suppress the darker themes and implications of _Nightwing #30_.


That all seems likely - and thanks for the correction! I seem to automatically peg the "cuddly" bits to King and the "badass" bits to Seeley, when really it should perhaps be the other way round!




> Personally, I suspect that Seeley would rather just retcon _Forever Evil_, or at least it's fallout for Dick, and call  it a day. They really are in a no win situation.  If they honor what was put forth in _Forever Evil_, the entire book will be consumed with sadness and dark angst.  If they don't, they don't get any setup accomplished and the final reveal may bring forth as many boos as cheers.


Wouldn't _everyone_ rather retcon that? At absolute best, it's the set-up for an aborted alternative path for Dick. Of course, and I'm just sayin', Seeley put Dick inside the one organisation in the DCU capable of _in-universe_ retcon!

----------


## Claude

> Yes.  This actually *is* something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized.  I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots.  That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn.  Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.


It's Batman's sometimes-central Modus Operandi, isn't it? "Becoming Batman so that noone else has to."

It even works quite nicely with Synder and Higgins's mostly-not-talked-about-now Court Of Owls secret Dick backstory - Bruce just had A Really Bad Day Out Of Nowhere, whereas Dick had everything stacked against him.




> To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO."  It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian.  To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of _Grayson_, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce.


I think there's probably an interesting story to tell about why it "worked" with Dick in a way that it didn't with Jason and Tim.

Although, thinking about it, both would probably come down to "editorial screwed them over more".




> And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city.  Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham.  Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that."  As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.


Ah, yes - the positive benefit to the probably undeniable _coolness_ that Snyder has for the whole set-up!



Also, this exchange has reminded me - after that podcast interview, I _really_ want "Batman And Robin" to be one of King's upcoming post-Convergence projects. He really seems to _get it._

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Yes.  This actually *is* something that King, rather than Seeley, has emphasized.  I have heard a couple of podcasts where King has said he really prefers a chronology in which Dick comes to live with Bruce at 12 rather than 16, precisely because it emphasizes one aspect of Bruce's character that gets lost if you don't allow the Bruce/Dick interactions to spread out and establish deep roots.  That is the truly remarkable fact that somehow, someway, this deeply scarred individual took in a traumatized child and managed, somehow, to keep him from becoming scarred in turn.  Somehow, Bruce was able to step back and analyze his own darkness and see to it that Dick never became infected with it.  
> 
> To put it in terms of Snyder's overarching narrative, Dick represents the one time in his life Bruce was able to look Gotham in her bony face and say, firmly, "NO."  It is even more remarkable if you consider that he wasn't able to do that for Jason, or Tim, or even Damian.  To explore those other relationships it outside the bounds of _Grayson_, but once again it emphasizes the heavy aura of the Silver Age that surrounds Dick and Bruce. 
> 
> And it also illustrates why, as long as the Snyderesque view of Gotham and Batman's relationship to the city holds, it is so very important that Dick stay outside of the city.  Snyder likes to say that Batman loves only one thing ... Gotham.  Seeley and King seem to be saying ... "Well, now, I don't know about that."  As long as Dick stays away from the city, the two interpretations don't come into conflict, allowing everybody to have it their own way.


This reminds me of the end of Zero Year, where Alfred imagines Bruce going on a date with Julie Madison, and having a family, but Bruce chooses Gotham instead. I think Bruce sees Dick as someone who could (eventually) live the life he never did, settling down and starting a family (but hopefully without that awful mustache).




> Also, this exchange has reminded me - after that podcast interview, I _really_ want "Batman And Robin" to be one of King's upcoming post-Convergence projects. He really seems to _get it._


I would love a "Grayson/Robin" series. C'mon the timing is perfect! Damian's missing from Eternal! Where could he be!?

----------


## Claude

> I would love a "Grayson/Robin" series. C'mon the timing is perfect! Damian's missing from Eternal! Where could he be!?


Damian as Dick's sidekick works, in a way that he _really_ doesn't as Bruce's. Hell, he only ever became Robin in the first place because Dick was Batman!

Damian going off to live and work with Dick, whilst Bruce went and got someone like Duke as Robin - who I was rather taken with in the otherwise pretty pointless Future's End issue of B'n'R - would probably work out best for everyone. Except that I can't see DC _not_ having Damian As Robin, and so he's rather tied to Bruce.

So I'll settle for a Bruce And Dick And Damian book, please. By Tom King. Either post "Dick Is Alive" reveal, or with them all in their big, secret clubhouse.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damian as Dick's sidekick works, in a way that he _really_ doesn't as Bruce's. Hell, he only ever became Robin in the first place because Dick was Batman!
> 
> Damian going off to live and work with Dick, whilst Bruce went and got someone like Duke as Robin - who I was rather taken with in the otherwise pretty pointless Future's End issue of B'n'R - would probably work out best for everyone. Except that I can't see DC _not_ having Damian As Robin, and so he's rather tied to Bruce.
> 
> So I'll settle for a Bruce And Dick And Damian book, please. By Tom King. Either post "Dick Is Alive" reveal, or with them all in their big, secret clubhouse.


That would be great. I am pretty bummed Damian is coming back to find out Dick is dead. I don't think his position as robin will last too long, the superpower thing has me on edge that it will ruin the balance of power in the relatinship, esp with someone as impulsve as Damian. Woulndt be suprised if he got sent to smallville for a while.

----------


## Claude

> That would be great. I am pretty bummed Damian is coming back to find out Dick is dead. I don't think his position as robin will last too long, the superpower thing has me on edge that it will ruin the balance of power in the relatinship, esp with someone as impulsve as Damian. Woulndt be suprised if he got sent to smallville for a while.


I kinda feel, at this point, that if he _wasn't_ going to be Robin again - and a constant presence in a number of titles - then they'd just have left him dead. I'm with you on being.... _wary_ about the superpowers thing though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I kinda feel, at this point, that if he _wasn't_ going to be Robin again - and a constant presence in a number of titles - then they'd just have left him dead. I'm with you on being.... _wary_ about the superpowers thing though.


Why would Bruce bring another child by his side after losing one, who was his own son. Jason wasnt a kid when he died. Damian dying ruined the whole idea of the kid sidekick, why risk another one. But if the kid was invinceable....

----------


## brucekent12

I think that Dick is a wonderful character and love him to death .But this is a matter of different writer, different viewpoint of character. And that's the beauty of comics, each writer sees each character differently.

----------


## K. Jones

> The origin Max Allan Collins did post-Crisis wasn't awful. And, of course, they managed to keep Tim Drake's initial origin free of that kind of stuff, at least so far as Tim himself was concerned. But yeah, the 1986-1989 period was pretty horrible.


Collins work is underrated. His doing the retcon of Nightwing obviously isn't Judas Contract, and nobody who remembers the change from Robin to Nightwing isn't thinking of Judas Contract. Moreover, his being the guy handling the retcon of Jason's origin was a radical change, sure, but was abjectly not the beginning of Jaybird's character assassination, which was basically entirely the product of Jim Starlin's desire to ape Frank Miller. Of course it was basically that pitch to Denny that got Starlin the writing gig on Batman books anyway, so the decision was hardly his alone. But anyway, back to the 80s bit ...

It's a total "saved by the bell" scenario. Judas Contract was so fresh in recent memory, and Wolfman's Titans so well-received and popular that they just plain couldn't really do much but minor, minor tweaks to Dick's motivation for "graduating". Rightly so, too. Of course that's me calling a shift from a supportive "graduation" to a late-teen rebellion "a minor tweak".

----------


## oasis1313

Max Allan Collins should stick to crime novels and NEVER come near Dick Grayson again.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Max Allan Collins should stick to crime novels and NEVER come near Dick Grayson again.


I don't think you have to worry about that.




> Collins work is underrated. His doing the retcon of Nightwing obviously isn't Judas Contract, and nobody who remembers the change from Robin to Nightwing isn't thinking of Judas Contract. Moreover, his being the guy handling the retcon of Jason's origin was a radical change, sure, but was abjectly not the beginning of Jaybird's character assassination, which was basically entirely the product of Jim Starlin's desire to ape Frank Miller. Of course it was basically that pitch to Denny that got Starlin the writing gig on Batman books anyway, so the decision was hardly his alone. But anyway, back to the 80s bit ...


Denny managed to pull a pretty fast one in that he weaseled his way out of the responsibility for the whole post-Crisis Jason Todd mess, leaving Collins and Starlin to take the fall.  I think in part he managed that because he and Adams were well-loved for their work with _Green Arrow/Green Lantern_ as well at _Batman_ during the "relevance" period as Morrison calls it, and because he had a good touch with managing the Batman writers.  Mainly, though, he weaseled out by getting Starlin off the book with impressive speed and hustling Tim Drake, a character that even he admitted was deliberately crafted to be popular and thus to directly cancel a lot of Starlin's approach, into the Robin position as quickly as possible.   In later years he even got away with grumbling about the telephone voting stunt, conveniently letting any role he might have played in it go unmentioned.

----------


## jules

> I would love a "Grayson/Robin" series. C'mon the timing is perfect! Damian's missing from Eternal! Where could he be!?


As soon as it looked pretty certain that Damian was actually coming back and they weren't just yanking our chains, I started mourning the fact that Morrison set up St Hadrian's as a girls' finishing school rather than a mixed sex boarding school for proto-assassins of ages 11 and up. Because, given the cover story for Damian's absence from Gotham, that would have been the perfect place to put him for the duration of Eternal. And he'd get to heckle the gay French gym teacher too.

Still, maybe St Hadrian's has links to a very similar school for boys and Dick can teach there too?




> Also, this exchange has reminded me - after that podcast interview, I _really_ want "Batman And Robin" to be one of King's upcoming post-Convergence projects. He really seems to _get it._


That's a gig I hadn't thought of, but yes, it'd be interesting. And I will be vastly surprised if King doesn't end up on either Eternal 2.0 or another weekly title after Convergence. He's already proved with Grayson that he plays well with others, and good collaboration skills are key to making those books work.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Oh hey, Wolfman is writing Disco Dick and the rest of the New Teen Titans for Convergence

----------


## byrd156

> Oh hey, Wolfman is writing Disco Dick and the rest of the New Teen Titans for Convergence


I think it's the whole team minus Wally. Though I don't remember if he was on the roster at that time.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus



----------


## jules

> I think it's the whole team minus Wally. Though I don't remember if he was on the roster at that time.


Wally left just before The Judas Contract, and was then replaced by Jericho. The page that's being shown also has Kole instead of Raven, so it's the Titans from immediately prior to Crisis.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't think you have to worry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> Denny managed to pull a pretty fast one in that he weaseled his way out of the responsibility for the whole post-Crisis Jason Todd mess, leaving Collins and Starlin to take the fall.  I think in part he managed that because he and Adams were well-loved for their work with _Green Arrow/Green Lantern_ as well at _Batman_ during the "relevance" period as Morrison calls it, and because he had a good touch with managing the Batman writers.  Mainly, though, he weaseled out by getting Starlin off the book with impressive speed and hustling Tim Drake, a character that even he admitted was deliberately crafted to be popular and thus to directly cancel a lot of Starlin's approach, into the Robin position as quickly as possible.   In later years he even got away with grumbling about the telephone voting stunt, conveniently letting any role he might have played in it go unmentioned.


I would agree.  In an interview for a local nerd group when O'Neil came to my town many years ago, I confronted him to his face about it.  He said he hadn't been paying much attention because he had so many other irons in the fire and got blindsided by Collins.  Robin/Dick wasn't a character he was particularly interested in; it was all about The Batman--then he was shocked that so many people made such a big deal about it.  Uh huh.  On a different subject that had nothing to do with the interview, Tim Drake WAS a piece of hustling--where Jason at least had a personality and some growing to do--DC wanted to make sure there were no 1-900 numbers.  Tim was like Athena in Greek myths, and sprang forth the perfect Mary Sue from the forehead of Zeus, and there was no carpet too red for DC to roll out for him.  Dick Grayson has been raped by DC editorial more than Devin Grayson ever imagined.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Tim Drake was intended to be top notch, just like every other Robin since Dick became Nightwing. They need to keep making money off of the Batman and Robin name.

----------


## byrd156

> Wally left just before The Judas Contract, and was then replaced by Jericho. The page that's being shown also has Kole instead of Raven, so it's the Titans from immediately prior to Crisis.


Yeah, that's what I thought.

----------


## oasis1313

I'd like to see something like a Batman Mach 2 book where Dick is Batman, Mach 3 where Jason wears the cowl, and a Batman 666 where Damian continues his adult adventures.  That way, we could get more Dickbats + Damian, a Batman who is willing to kill with Jason, and Damian would be the ultimate badass Batman.

----------


## WonderNight

> Tim Drake was intended to be top notch, just like every other Robin since Dick became Nightwing. They need to keep making money off of the Batman and Robin name.


Or they could just let the world know that robin is a grown man now!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Or they could just let the world know that robin is a grown man now!


But they could make more money off both grown-up Dick Grayson and Robin.

----------


## WonderNight

> But they could make more money off both grown-up Dick Grayson and Robin.


True. That is why damian works, dick as nightwing/grayson and damian as robin shows that time has moved on but with tim and jason things dont fit as well because they are too close in age with dick. Also how many "sons" does batman need?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, they keep dying off one after another.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, they keep dying off one after another.


DC has promised that Tim Drake will not be killed off.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Scott Lobdell already has.

----------


## Rac7d*

Took me to long to notice that where the new 52 costume came from
chris-odonnell-robin.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> Took me to long to notice that where the new 52 costume came from
> chris-odonnell-robin.jpg


Minus the cape and nipples.

----------


## M L A

I remember from a while back, the explanation of why it's red is because some higher up (Jim Lee, I think) thought the red was "more striking".

...Which is something I find funny because "striking" does mean nice-looking, but usually because it's unusual. Him being red is literally the opposite of that when all but two Batfam members are wearing red.

If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised because Jim Lee is terrible at costumes.

----------


## Csjbo08

That could have been the reason, another one I've heard was that the change was made to give all 4 Robins a sense of solidarity with all of them wearing costumes with a red color schemes.  

Though DC really had a love for red color schemes throughout the new-52 launch, most notably the Red Titans.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Yeah, the New 52 launch had some pretty restrictive and weird editorial shackles.

----------


## oasis1313

When you grow up from being Robin, you should be able to graduate to blue like Batman if that's what you want to wear.

----------


## SpiderWing20

Anyone else want to see the Nu52 version of Tarantula appear in Grayson? I think she could be a great antagonist for Dick and maybe a somewhat rival for Helena

Also, am I the only one who thinks Mr. Minos is supposed to be Dicks Joker/Lex. I remember back during the announcement of the book King did an interview talking about how the arch enemy of Dick should be his opposite where Dick is truthful, bright and trustworthy his enemy would be manipulative and dark or something along those lines. I feel that is Minos, I mean come on dude screams lead Bond movie villain

----------


## Aioros22

The color motif is a weird argument to me. Red looks good with black across the board. It`s not that Nigthwing with red looks bad or even off (he doesn`t - it works and it is striking in a graphic sense) it just that most readers will connect the name with Blue out of the "Night" part of the name. 

Red is a primary Robin color, not Batman`s. That`s the reason they all wear it, they are the graduates. Batwoman mainly uses it out of being a redhead in costume, thought.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Anyone else want to see the Nu52 version of Tarantula appear in Grayson? I think she could be a great antagonist for Dick and maybe a somewhat rival for Helena
> 
> Also, am I the only one who thinks Mr. Minos is supposed to be Dicks Joker/Lex. I remember back during the announcement of the book King did an interview talking about how the arch enemy of Dick should be his opposite where Dick is truthful, bright and trustworthy his enemy would be manipulative and dark or something along those lines. I feel that is Minos, I mean come on dude screams lead Bond movie villain


As far as Tarantula goes, I would bet not, just as I would bet that we will never see Devin Grayson or Jim Starlin writing a Batman book again.  There are some doors you want to keep firmly closed.

King is especially enthusiastic about the Tiger, and has seemed to regard him as Dick's archenemy.  But you are right that Minos has all the makings of a wonderful Bond-type villain.  But then, so would the Tiger.  Minos is a good villain in the tradition of Blofeld or Goldfinger, whereas Tiger fits a Scaramunga (great villain but wretched movie) or Silva role.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

From the way King talked about Tiger, I don't even know if he would really be a villain in the traditional sense, maybe more like an anti-villain or a sympathetic antagonist.

And no to Tarantula. Dick has been rape-free since the New 52. Let's keep it that way.

----------


## Claude

Yeah, Tiger seems to be current choice for Personally Invested Villainy.

Also, thinking about it, #5 next week should be when that kicks off!

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Dicktember is almost upon us.

----------


## M L A

> Dicktember is almost upon us.


A Merry Christmas to me.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

So excited for December, I like that Dick is getting a nice build ipbof a rogues gallery that does not havevto be shared or giving to someone else. He has great room to grow and can't wait for how things play out with Mr. Minos, Paragon,  Midnighter and Tiger

----------


## K. Jones

> From the way King talked about Tiger, I don't even know if he would really be a villain in the traditional sense, maybe more like an anti-villain or a sympathetic antagonist.
> 
> And no to Tarantula. Dick has been rape-free since the New 52. Let's keep it that way.


Sympathetic antagonists are cool. Sort of like Sean Bean's Agent 006, then. There's really a Bond-villain for every trope. Allies-turned-enemies, freelance hired guns and hitmen, monster goons, masterminds, and of course the trope invented by Robert Shaw - the big sadistic blond hench.

----------


## Dzetoun

> So excited for December, I like that Dick is getting a nice build ipbof a rogues gallery that does not havevto be shared or giving to someone else. He has great room to grow and can't wait for how things play out with Mr. Minos, Paragon,  Midnighter and Tiger


Yes.  One of the great successes of _Grayson_ is the way they have begun to rapidly build Dick his own world and supporting cast.  For a rogues gallery we already have the Tiger, Minos, the Fist of Cain, and possibly Checkmate. For friends and allies there are Batman, Helena, possibly eventually the Hood, probably eventually Midnighter, and through Midnighter perhaps the Gardener and the rest of Stormwatch, which would be extremely unexpected and undeniably cool.

----------


## Csjbo08

> Yes.  One of the great successes of _Grayson_ is the way they have begun to rapidly build Dick his own world and supporting cast.  For a rogues gallery we already have the Tiger, Minos, the Fist of Cain, and possibly Checkmate. For friends and allies there are Batman, Helena, possibly eventually the Hood, probably eventually Midnighter, and through Midnighter perhaps the Gardener and the rest of Stormwatch, which would be extremely unexpected and undeniably cool.


Exactly, it's also one of the more underrated aspects of the series as many readers aren't even aware of how much of the DCU has been shown in _Grayson_, especially when compared to Higgin's _Nightwing_ which the first 5 issues or so only had Barbara Gordon and that was for one issue.  When it did expand, it was pretty much in Batman's world with Batman's supporting cast.  

I could see more members of Stormwatch playing a significant part (if not the whole team) in _Grayson_, DC might as well do something with them besides throwing them in _Future's End_.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Higgins' run had Jimmy the clown and Raya and ... yeah. Then he moved to Chicago, and we kinda had a weird supporting cast of roommates/cops that were kinda forgettable, and never really recaptured the magic of the Bludhaven run.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Higgins' run had Jimmy the clown and Raya and ... yeah. Then he moved to Chicago, and we kinda had a weird supporting cast of roommates/cops that were kinda forgettable, and never really recaptured the magic of the Bludhaven run.


So true & So sad.  Higgins number one ambition was to be Dixon 2.0 and define Dick Grayson for the New 52, obviously he flubbed it big time.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

And it worked with Dixon, as Dick stayed in Bludhaven because he genuinely wanted to clean up the city. Not chase after Zucco, or handle circus drama.

----------


## Csjbo08

> So true & So sad.  Higgins number one ambition was to be Dixon 2.0 and define Dick Grayson for the New 52, obviously he flubbed it big time.


To be fair to Higgins, _Nightwing_ was one of the most jerked around titles of the new 52 regarding editorial interference.  Kyle Higgins had a hard time setting up his own vision for Dick Grayson and going through with it because every-time he set something up, it had to be abandoned in favor of a _Batman_ crossover, now it helped the series with regards to sales but ultimately it hurt the direction of the run and the character development of Dick Grayson.  The one time he did have any sort of freedom was in the Second City arc where Kyle made the title resemble a Spider-Man comic which I think was perfectly fine with because I've always viewed Dick Grayson/Nightwing as DC's equivalent to Peter Parker/Spider-Man.  That arc was the only thing that I loved about Higgin's _Nightwing_ run and I don't think I've ever had as much fun reading a Nightwing solo comic (historically they haven't been all that great).  In fact, whenever I talk about Higgin's _Nightwing_ run, I just tell people to start from Second City.

However, Forever Evil happened and after Dick was unmasked, it pretty much neutered Higgin's _Nightwing_ because the focus was no longer on his run but on what Geoff Johns had in store for Dick in FE.

----------


## brucekent12

So it was always set up to have Dick go to another field after being unmasked. I'm glad the editors went with the spy busness.  Really enjoying the arc.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> To be fair to Higgins, _Nightwing_ was one of the most jerked around titles of the new 52 regarding editorial interference.  Kyle Higgins had a hard time setting up his own vision for Dick Grayson and going through with it because every-time he set something up, it had to be abandoned in favor of a _Batman_ crossover, now it helped the series with regards to sales but ultimately it hurt the direction of the run and the character development of Dick Grayson.  The one time he did have any sort of freedom was in the Second City arc where Kyle made the title resemble a Spider-Man comic which I think was perfectly fine with because I've always viewed Dick Grayson/Nightwing as DC's equivalent to Peter Parker/Spider-Man.  That arc was the only thing that I loved about Higgin's _Nightwing_ run and I don't think I've ever had as much fun reading a Nightwing solo comic (historically they haven't been all that great).  In fact, whenever I talk about Higgin's _Nightwing_ run, I just tell people to start from Second City.
> 
> However, Forever Evil happened and after Dick was unmasked, it pretty much neutered Higgin's _Nightwing_ because the focus was no longer on his run but on what Geoff Johns had in store for Dick in FE.


Higgins has said on multiple occasions that he chose to structure his _Nightwing_ arcs around the next *Batman crossover epic*, so I doubt there were any editorial shenanigans going on. In fact his arc 'Second City' is really the only instance of editorial interference I can think of. He wanted the arc to climax with an extremely grim-derp moment and those evil editors said no thanks. Higgins has a lot of love for DG but at the end of the day his run was weak because it was all talk. His best ideas, 'Prince of Gotham' & 'Brotherhood of Wing', never hit the freaking pages. Instead we got countless lame-o characters like the Chicago roommates + orphan girl, Jimmy the Clown, Saiko et cetera.


I always find it weird that people see Dick Grayson as some kind of Spider-Man analogue, he did the friendly-puny-acrobatic-swinging thing first people.

----------


## dropkickjake

Spider-Man has had a bit of a higher profile for the last 60 years or so though. Higgins run was just full of good ideas that he didn't commit to. I could read a Dick-with-the-traveling-circus book. I would've loved the amusement mile/price of Gotham direction, and Chicago was fairly strong as well. He just couldn't stick to one and develop a cast of supporting characters.

----------


## tako

> Spider-Man has had a bit of a higher profile for the last 60 years or so though. Higgins run was just full of good ideas that he didn't commit to. I could read a Dick-with-the-traveling-circus book. I would've loved the amusement mile/price of Gotham direction, and Chicago was fairly strong as well. He just couldn't stick to one and develop a cast of supporting characters.


It's not that 'he' couldn't - editorial stopped him.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I always find it weird that people see Dick Grayson as some kind of Spider-Man analogue, he did the friendly-puny-acrobatic-swinging thing first people.


Actually, I'm going to have to go with what Tom King said in his last podcast, that is that although it's a mistake to see Dick Grayson as a form of Batman, it's equally a mistake to see him as an analogue of Spiderman.  He is slightly but significantly older for one thing.  But more importantly,  Peter Parker is, in essence, a smart-ass who cracks wise to deal with the troubles and miseries in his life.  Grayson, on the other hand, makes jokes because he's genuinely happy.  Spiderman is constantly saying that with great power comes great responsibility, whereas Grayson would say, "Sure, but it's all so much FUN!"  Spiderman's life is dominated by the tension between the desires of Peter Parker and the duties of Spiderman.  With Dick Grayson, when he is well-written, that tension doesn't really arise.  He is always Dick Grayson, and he loves what he is and what he does.




> I could see more members of Stormwatch playing a significant part (if not the whole team) in Grayson, DC might as well do something with them besides throwing them in Future's End.


Using the Stormwatch characters was one of the very shrewd maneuvers Seeley and King made early on.  By introducing them, Dick can build connections with powerful and important heroes without interacting with the Justice League and touching on that stinking mess of who knows he's alive, how could they miss him standing there when they came out of the Firestorm matrix, etc.  Also, Stormwatch really doesn't "live" anywhere in the DCU these days.  That is, there is no title dedicated to them and no editorial office pushing them, with the minor exception of Idelson's group using them in _Futures End_.  Therefore Seeley and King have great latitude, since no one else is likely to object much to what they do as far as Stormwatch is concerned.  One wonders what other surprises may be in the wings.  Personally, as long as they are playing around with former Wildstorm properties, I think Grifter might be a very good person to introduce into _Grayson_.  The Daemonite invasion is just precisely the kind of threat an organization like Spyral would be well set to combat.

----------


## K. Jones

> Actually, I'm going to have to go with what Tom King said in his last podcast, that is that although it's a mistake to see Dick Grayson as a form of Batman, it's equally a mistake to see him as an analogue of Spiderman.  He is slightly but significantly older for one thing.  But more importantly,  Peter Parker is, in essence, a smart-ass who cracks wise to deal with the troubles and miseries in his life.  Grayson, on the other hand, makes jokes because he's genuinely happy.  Spiderman is constantly saying that with great power comes great responsibility, whereas Grayson would say, "Sure, but it's all so much FUN!"  Spiderman's life is dominated by the tension between the desires of Peter Parker and the duties of Spiderman.  With Dick Grayson, when he is well-written, that tension doesn't really arise.  He is always Dick Grayson, and he loves what he is and what he does.
> 
> 
> 
> Using the Stormwatch characters was one of the very shrewd maneuvers Seeley and King made early on.  By introducing them, Dick can build connections with powerful and important heroes without interacting with the Justice League and touching on that stinking mess of who knows he's alive, how could they miss him standing there when they came out of the Firestorm matrix, etc.  Also, Stormwatch really doesn't "live" anywhere in the DCU these days.  That is, there is no title dedicated to them and no editorial office pushing them, with the minor exception of Idelson's group using them in _Futures End_.  Therefore Seeley and King have great latitude, since no one else is likely to object much to what they do as far as Stormwatch is concerned.  One wonders what other surprises may be in the wings.  Personally, as long as they are playing around with former Wildstorm properties, I think Grifter might be a very good person to introduce into _Grayson_.  The Daemonite invasion is just precisely the kind of threat an organization like Spyral would be well set to combat.


There's a nice blatancy to the thematics of using Midnighter, but it occurred to me instantaneously that bringing Apollo in doesn't hurt, either, given King and Seeley's dedication to maintaining as much "Historical Grayson Context" as possible in spite of the New 52. 

The World's Finest was THREE people - Superman, Batman and Dick Grayson. (DC's "Holy Trinity" is a Quartet) And Dick became "Nightwing" with a lot of input from his friend and role-model, Clark, who told him about Kandor's Nightwing. 

So having Apollo there as a Superman analog is something with almost as much story potential and potential for one-liners and character beats as having Midnighter. These are dudes Dick will "get". Plus he's the perfect character to meet them along with because he'll probably vocally point out the fact that they're analogs, quip about Freudian things when he sees they're in a relationship together.

He's still a fan proxy, after all. He's us. Which makes him the perfect character to use to literalize common fan opinions into actual dialogue and action within the text itself.

----------


## oasis1313

The World's Finest was THREE people - Superman, Batman and Dick Grayson. (DC's "Holy Trinity" is a Quartet) And Dick became "Nightwing" with a lot of input from his friend and role-model, Clark, who told him about Kandor's Nightwing. 

I thought this was lovely, when Wolfman and Perez did it.  But wasn't it all just tossed with Max Allan Collins' one-panel wonder?

----------


## Claude

> The World's Finest was THREE people - Superman, Batman and Dick Grayson. (DC's "Holy Trinity" is a Quartet) And Dick became "Nightwing" with a lot of input from his friend and role-model, Clark, who told him about Kandor's Nightwing. 
> 
> I thought this was lovely, when Wolfman and Perez did it.  But wasn't it all just tossed with Max Allan Collins' one-panel wonder?


Nightwing Year One has a _lovely_ sequence of Dick visiting Clark in Metropolis. As an almost entirely post-Crisis reader, it was one of the few times I saw those characters together and it really worked for me.

"And did [The Nightwing of Kandor]'s family ever admit their mistake?"
"Does it matter?"

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Just saw the preview. Wednesday can't come quickly enough.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

https://twitter.com/GregCapullo/stat...97163266064385

Capullo posted this on Twitter.



Face structure and hair kinda looks like Capullo's Dick (Twitter seems to think so), but it also looks like that character has a ponytail?

----------


## Dzetoun

> https://twitter.com/GregCapullo/stat...97163266064385
> 
> Capullo posted this on Twitter.
> 
> 
> 
> Face structure and hair kinda looks like Capullo's Dick (Twitter seems to think so), but it also looks like that character has a ponytail?


No on the ponytail.  That appears to be an object slung across the figure's back, or perhaps a framing object in the near background.

As to who it is, it certainly looks like Capullo's Grayson, and I don't know who else he would call out in that way. Remember, however, that it could easily be a dream sequence or a flashback.  If he is just penciling the image now, it is likely for February or March, so we will see sometime early next year.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> No on the ponytail.  That appears to be an object slung across the figure's back, or perhaps a framing object in the near background.
> 
> As to who it is, it certainly looks like Capullo's Grayson, and I don't know who else he would call out in that way. Remember, however, that it could easily be a dream sequence or a flashback.  If he is just penciling the image now, it is likely for February or March, so we will see sometime early next year.


What if it's Jason todd? He Still wears an eye mask

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

What if it's Dick with a ponytail mullet? Remember when he used to look like this:

----------


## M L A

Capullo has sameface so I wouldn't try to guess as to who it is.

----------


## Dzetoun

> What if it's Jason todd? He Still wears an eye mask


Doesn't look like Jason's facial structure.  And once again, I don't know why Capullo would indicate Jason with a "Hey Girls," call out. Fairly or not, Dick is the sex symbol among the Robins, whereas Jason and Tim are generally not referred to that way.

----------


## sanderling

> What if it's Dick with a ponytail mullet? Remember when he used to look like this:


Oh holy cats.  Everything about that picture is amazing.  Thank you for digging that one out and sharing, I needed a laugh.

----------


## sanderling

And for some reason, double post...

Sorry!  Clearly I was distracted by those high waisted jeans.

----------


## Badou

> Capullo has sameface so I wouldn't try to guess as to who it is.


Was just about to say this.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Doesn't look like Jason's facial structure.  And once again, I don't know why Capullo would indicate Jason with a "Hey Girls," call out. Fairly or not, Dick is the sex symbol among the Robins, whereas Jason and Tim are generally not referred to that way.


I didn't know of the quote from Capullo lol

----------


## Dzetoun

> What if it's Dick with a ponytail mullet?



Actually, when I look at the picture from an angle (tilting the screen of my laptop back about 30 degrees) it looks like the ponytail effect is created in part by the figure holding something, probably a communicator or a set of headphones, to his ear.  Also, does that look like a train or a subway in the background?

----------


## BloodOps

hmmm...Endgame is arguably the furthest we have the Nu52 canon(Not counting Futures End which won't happen officially anyway), perhaps by then(after Eternal prior to Endgame) the Batfamily find out Dick is alive? Bruce sends out an emergency message to the family(they'll show up sooner or later in this arc) and Dick puts on the mask again to help him out. 

Obviously just throwing out theories and crap out there because that does look like Capullo's Grayson, he has similar faces in most of the human characters he draws but his Grayson has always been a little different and the hair definitely doesn't look like Jason.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Maybe Bruce is just dreaming about Dick? It'd be an awful thing for Capullo to tease.

----------


## oasis1313

> hmmm...Endgame is arguably the furthest we have the Nu52 canon(Not counting Futures End which won't happen officially anyway), perhaps by then(after Eternal prior to Endgame) the Batfamily find out Dick is alive? Bruce sends out an emergency message to the family(they'll show up sooner or later in this arc) and Dick puts on the mask again to help him out. 
> 
> Obviously just throwing out theories and crap out there because that does look like Capullo's Grayson, he has similar faces in most of the human characters he draws but his Grayson has always been a little different and the hair definitely doesn't look like Jason.


Maybe it's Tim.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I don't see why dick can't be in it since other writers have been using him in ways where he does not have to interact with everyone

----------


## Dzetoun

> I don't see why dick can't be in it since other writers have been using him in ways where he does not have to interact with everyone


If they are using him in ways similar to what we have in _Grayson_ there would be no point in him wearing a mask.  Assuming it is Dick, then it is a flashback, a dream, or the issues around _Forever Evil_ have somehow been resolved/retconned.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Another Convergence book for Dick. Detective Comics featuring pre-Crisis Earth 2 Dick and Helena Wayne.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

DETECTIVE COMICS
Writer: Len Wein
Artists: Denys Cowan and Bill Sienkiewicz
Colorist: Felix Serrano
Helena Wayne and Dick Grayson fight side by side in memory of Bruce Wayne as they decide who will become the next Batman.

----------


## BloodOps

Dick is back in Injustice btw. 


The Spectre ends up "killing" Deadman and Boston must choose his successor and his only choice was Dick Grayson. So now Dick is the new Deadman and will aid Bruce and the rebellion. 

Saw it coming from a mile away but still pretty cool.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'm surprised they didn't bring him back as a spy who was faking his death all along.

----------


## Godlike13

That does actually sound pretty cool.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

So how many times this year has Dick died and come back to life now?

----------


## Godlike13

I don't know, but the more i think about it, the more i like this whole Deadman's successor thing. I mean both were acrobats, both are high collar bros. Hope he calls himself Deathwing. Though no spikes or nipple piercings.

----------


## M L A

> So how many times this year has Dick died and come back to life now?


He's died quite a few times in the past couple years. Like three or four already. Even more in various elseworlds over the years, lol.
Wouldn't be surprised if Earth-2 Dick were to bite the dust before World's End is over.

----------


## nepenthes

> DETECTIVE COMICS
> Writer: Len Wein
> Artists: Denys Cowan and Bill Sienkiewicz
> Colorist: Felix Serrano
> Helena Wayne and Dick Grayson fight side by side in memory of Bruce Wayne as they decide who will become the next Batman.


Cowan and Scienkiewicz - such a great team. Wish they were on books!

----------


## oasis1313

Didio will be in paroxysms of ecstasy from all these Dead Dicks.

----------


## Cold Water

> So it could be five dead Dicks.


This is an example of why the name "Dick" never works.

----------


## K. Jones

Cowan and Sienkie was enough to get me to buy, but seriously, Len Wein doing Classic Earth 2 stuff and Grayson in the silly grown-up bat costume is like my favorite thing ever. Are they stuck in Metropolis? Winslow Schott is a pretty Superman-type goon.

----------


## Rakiduam

I liked this one a lot

http://biansr.tumblr.com/post/104125...guess-who-am-i

----------


## Godlike13

> This is an example of why the name "Dick" never works.


Dick jokes are the best part of his name.

----------


## Cold Water

> Dick jokes are the best part of his name.


I bet.  I'm glad I am not the only one who turns into an 11 year old boy upon mention of the name "Dick".
Because I love using that word entirely too much.

----------


## oasis1313

One problem is that "Dick" was a very commonly used male names in the early part of the 20th century.  It had no slang connotations at the time.  I had an uncle named Dick (now long deceased), who was born in 1913; when people said "every Tom, Dick, and Harry"--it was because those names were in bogue.  Maybe the solution would be to refer to him as "Richard" ALL the time and try to fade "Dick" into the past.  The only male Bat-Family members whose names are contempory are Jason and Damian.  Bruce is an old name, too; I know for a fact that Tim Drake was named so for the sole purpose of honoring Tim Burton, who directed the Batman comeback movie.

----------


## Dzetoun

Evinist has completed her Tumbler series on Damian and Dick:


Tell me the truth, Father!

There you are!

Don't you ever ...

----------


## oasis1313

I think Dick and Damian are a much better team than Bruce and Damian.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think Dick and Damian are a much better team than Bruce and Damian.


I concur with that sentiment.

----------


## Csjbo08

> I think Dick and Damian are a much better team than Bruce and Damian.


You would be surprised as to how many Batman fans I've talked to have agreed with that statement, I've even heard some of them say that Dick and Damian were the best Batman/Robin duo over.  They really did play well off each other and I'm glad that the reboot still kept that bond intact.

----------


## Dzetoun

> You would be surprised as to how many Batman fans I've talked to and agree with that statement, I've even heard some of them say that Dick and Damian were the best Batman/Robin duo over.  They really did play well off each other and I'm glad that the reboot still kept that bond intact.


Well, intact to a point, anyway.  They never really did have the type of relationship after the reboot they had before.  And as for now... we will see how things proceed once Damian returns.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, Grant Morrison did write that "We were the best, Richard." scene in Inc. for a reason.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well, Grant Morrison did write that "We were the best, Richard." scene in Inc. for a reason.


Yeah, and that was, unfortunately, about all there was.  Well, there was that one scene in the graveyard after the Joker and just before Damian died.

Frankly, amusing and even logical as Evinist's stuff is, I doubt there will be anything after Damian returns, either.

----------


## Csjbo08

Not that this is a debate but there was also the great _Batman & Robin: Annual 2_  that also showcased their dynamic if only for a few pages.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Not that this is a debate but there was also the great _Batman & Robin: Annual 2_  that also showcased their dynamic if only for a few pages.


That's true.

----------


## tako

> Not that this is a debate but there was also the great _Batman & Robin: Annual 2_  that also showcased their dynamic if only for a few pages.


and Secret Origins #4

----------


## Dzetoun

> and Secret Origins #4


That's true as well.  Tomasi has devoted several pages to the subject, hasn't he?  I suspect whether there is much once Damian returns depends largely on his preference.  We will see.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I think ultimately, Tomasi will address the issue of Damian noticing that Dick isn't around, and he'll either buy Bruce's lie, or Bruce will cook up an excuse as to why they can't reunite yet.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think ultimately, Tomasi will address the issue of Damian noticing that Dick isn't around, and he'll either buy Bruce's lie, or Bruce will cook up an excuse as to why they can't reunite yet.


I'm not a great fan of Tomasi, but I do have to admit he is much more willing than most to pick up threads of continuity he did not originate and attempt to weave them into his stories.  Perhaps it's the editor in him shining through.  Of course, sometimes his attempts are such that one wishes he had left things alone (see Todd, Jason -- in Ethiopia).

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

"Hey Jason, let's have some good old father-son bonding time. Also, I need you to relive your most horrific life experiences so I can bring my dead son (one of the two that I actually like, ie, not you) back to life, okay?"

----------


## nepenthes

Considering Tomasi's history with Grayson and the moments we've seen when he's afforded an opportunity to write them together in New 52, if say it's fairly like he'll do a big reunion scene. Damian also murdered Frau Netz father, remember. And forget Grayson VS Midnighter; _Damian_ VS Midnighter  :Cool: 




> One problem is that "Dick" was a very commonly used male names in the early part of the 20th century.  It had no slang connotations at the time.  I had an uncle named Dick (now long deceased), who was born in 1913; when people said "every Tom, Dick, and Harry"--it was because those names were in bogue.  Maybe the solution would be to refer to him as "Richard" ALL the time and try to fade "Dick" into the past.  The only male Bat-Family members whose names are contempory are Jason and Damian.  Bruce is an old name, too; *I know for a fact that Tim Drake was named so for the sole purpose of honoring Tim Burton, who directed the Batman comeback movie*.


I use to imagine his name was actually Timo, it just sounds so much harder, but now I'm wishing he was Burton Drake ha. Tim short for Burton. I'm just gonna to go with that I think.

----------


## Cold Water

> One problem is that "Dick" was a very commonly used male names in the early part of the 20th century.  It had no slang connotations at the time.  I had an uncle named Dick (now long deceased), who was born in 1913; when people said "every Tom, Dick, and Harry"--it was because those names were in bogue.  Maybe the solution would be to refer to him as "Richard" ALL the time and try to fade "Dick" into the past.  The only male Bat-Family members whose names are contempory are Jason and Damian.  Bruce is an old name, too; I know for a fact that Tim Drake was named so for the sole purpose of honoring Tim Burton, who directed the Batman comeback movie.


Yeah, I know Dick was a popular name along time ago.
But, today, it makes me chuckle.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Richard Nixon being well... Nixon certainly didn't help.

----------


## spark627

Any thoughts on today's issue? It was definitely interesting. Starting in the middle of the mission is a great way to build intrigue but it leaves the reader with a lot of questions. The art was fantastic and yay for more shirtless Dick.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Still trying to wrap my head around any possible deeper significance of the Robin Dies at Dawn story.

----------


## spark627

> Still trying to wrap my head around any possible deeper significance of the Robin Dies at Dawn story.


Yea, that was very odd. Still wish we knew more about these organs.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I think the takeaway from that story is that he's essentially baiting the "monster" (ie, Spyral) in order to save a life, and in the process, is exposing himself to more blowback.

----------


## Dzetoun

Really, I don't think this month's issue had much of a deep point.  It had some good character work, and did a little more setup between Dick and Midnighter.  Also, a great showcase for the art.  The call-back to Batman 156 was nice.

----------


## Claude

> I know for a fact that Tim Drake was named so for the sole purpose of honoring Tim Burton, who directed the Batman comeback movie.


Yeah, I've heard that too. But I always liked - although doubtless a total coincidence - that the Bruce/Tim dynamic was leading the franchise through the 90s as the DCAU was first firing up.

----------


## byrd156

> Really, I don't think this month's issue had much of a deep point.  It had some good character work, and did a little more setup between Dick and Midnighter.  Also, a great showcase for the art.  The call-back to Batman 156 was nice.


This issue and the last feel like padding. There were some moments in both issues but that's pretty much it.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

If the big arc begins as they say with the Midnighter battle in January,  then I would at the issues as a kind of soft reboot/soul searching journey that would revitalize that had become stagnant since the new 52. Also from Capullo twitter teaser it looks like his version of Knightwing,  so maybe they will work him back in with the use of the Hypnos implant. 

Dick as Deadman is also cool for injustice

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'm fine with the slow plotting, honestly, because each issue has had something worth reading. Plus, it's always nice to see Dick Grayson being Dick.

----------


## Dzetoun

> If the big arc begins as they say with the Midnighter battle in January,  then I would at the issues as a kind of soft reboot/soul searching journey that would revitalize that had become stagnant since the new 52. Also from Capullo twitter teaser it looks like his version of Knightwing,  so maybe they will work him back in with the use of the Hypnos implant. 
> 
> Dick as Deadman is also cool for injustice


Yes, and Dick's status on Earth 2 is about to change, as well, judging by this week's issues.  It looks like he is going to be making some kind of mystical bargain with or through Constantine to save Barbara's life.  Perhaps he will end up becoming one of the Avatars?  Or else a replacement in Constantine's squad for Kid Karnevil.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yes, and Dick's status on Earth 2 is about to change, as well, judging by this week's issues.  It looks like he is going to be making some kind of mystical bargain with or through Constantine to save Barbara's life.  Perhaps he will end up becoming one of the Avatars?  Or else a replacement in Constantine's squad for Kid Karnevil.


Where's this stuff at?  There is Dick other than in Grayson?

----------


## byrd156

> Where's this stuff at?  There is Dick other than in Grayson?


He's in World's End and he is back in Injustice.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It's Dick-cember, duh.

----------


## Cold Water

> It's Dick-cember, duh.


I swear, I wish we could like posts here.  I have nothing to say to this, but I LOVE IT.

----------


## Godlike13

*Dick-cember!!!*

----------


## oasis1313

> This issue and the last feel like padding. There were some moments in both issues but that's pretty much it.


I loved this issue.  To me, it really shined a spotlight on who Dick Grayson IS.  What his heart and soul are like--and they are every bit as beautiful as his exterior.  I've heard it said that villains didn't so much fear Batman's toys and gimmicks--what they fears was his WILL.  Dick proves he is an equal to Bruce--if not Bruce's superior--when it comes to willpower.  He saved the baby.  Midnighter could brag and boast about all his "enchancements" and stuff, but when push came to shove, it was DICK GRAYSON who loved a child he'd never seen before above his own life.  I cried, it was a touching end.  The only character in the DC Universe who comes even CLOSE to having the heart, soul, determination, and love for others that Dick does is Superman himself.  Dick is the best human being on Earth Prime.

----------


## Cold Water

> *Dick-cember!!!*


That is seriously cute.

Yeah, don't mind me. I'll pop in every so often just for the Dick jokes.
So, expect a lot of posts of just laughter from me everytime someone makes a dick joke.

It. will. never. get. old.
NEVER.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Even funnier when you click on it just as 'shake it off' comes on. lol.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

How many issues is the first season until convergence

----------


## OWL45

> I loved this issue.  To me, it really shined a spotlight on who Dick Grayson IS.  What his heart and soul are like--and they are every bit as beautiful as his exterior.  I've heard it said that villains didn't so much fear Batman's toys and gimmicks--what they fears was his WILL.  Dick proves he is an equal to Bruce--if not Bruce's superior--when it comes to willpower.  He saved the baby.  Midnighter could brag and boast about all his "enchancements" and stuff, but when push came to shove, it was DICK GRAYSON who loved a child he'd never seen before above his own life.  I cried, it was a touching end.  The only character in the DC Universe who comes even CLOSE to having the heart, soul, determination, and love for others that Dick does is Superman himself.  Dick is the best human being on Earth Prime.


That's  going a little far. He is lying  to uncover a potential  plot against the hero community. Which includes sleepin with other Agents to maintain his cover and also have a good time. This is all standard spy stuff but Clark would never think about doing that. I think the issue illustrated is that yes he is a good man but also how strong his will and resolve is. He is a good man but not perfect but I wouldn't intrested in reading that all the time.

----------


## Claude

> How many issues is the first season until convergence


After the Annual and Secret Origins later this month, there are three more issues.

----------


## oasis1313

> That's  going a little far. He is lying  to uncover a potential  plot against the hero community. Which includes sleepin with other Agents to maintain his cover and also have a good time. This is all standard spy stuff but Clark would never think about doing that. I think the issue illustrated is that yes he is a good man but also how strong his will and resolve is. He is a good man but not perfect but I wouldn't intrested in reading that all the time.


Having god-like powers makes things a lot easier for Clark.  Stranded in the desert with a new-born baby--no problem, just fly it off to safety in two seconds.  Dick USED to be quite monogamous and never less than a proper gentleman toward the ladies, but the character has been sexed up while being dumbed down in recent years.  That said, I don't see him raping anybody and everyone involved appear to be consenting adults.  Sleeping with other agents (Dick apparently encounters a lot of lonely women and he wants to make them all happy).  He would like to settle down eventually with the right woman and raise a family.  As for Superman, there is famous essay out there, probably posted several places on the Internet, called "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex".  Humorous though it is, it is plain that while Earth Girls may be easy, they're really not in Clark's league.  The ONLY thing I like about the New 52 is FINALLY getting Kal-El AWAY from insipid Lois Lane and pairing him up for a little while with Wonder Woman, but we all know that isn't going to last--however, ONLY Wonder Woman is fit for Superman.  I'd like to see an Elseworlds maxi-series of a depowered Superman so that we could look more closely at his heart and soul.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, the Titans pilot is underway.

https://twitter.com/geoffjohns/statu...01100823638016

----------


## Badou

> Well, the Titans pilot is underway.
> 
> https://twitter.com/geoffjohns/statu...01100823638016


I have very low expectations for this. Still would rather see the character on the big screen than on TV to be honest, especially when the Titans franchise is at such a low point and I am not really looking forward to more Nightwing/Starfire. I worry what this will do to him in the comics too given what has happened to the Green Arrow book.

----------


## oasis1313

> I have very low expectations for this. Still would rather see the character on the big screen than on TV to be honest, especially when the Titans franchise is at such a low point and I am not really looking forward to more Nightwing/Starfire. I worry what this will do to him in the comics too given what has happened to the Green Arrow book.


'

I think Starfire would be a difficult chore for a TV budget.  And my expectations are also quite low.  BUT I think any major media exposure for Dick Grayson is a good thing.

----------


## byrd156

Who knows? Maybe this will be fantastic or utter garbage. I'm just excited to see a live-action Dick Grayson that isn't from the 60's or those other movies.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

It all depends on if the stay true to the character and include his acrobatics, detective skills an daredevil nature. I hope they cast some one new or very talented. With Starfire you could just give her make up and just use her powers when in battle and since they do Falling Sky to I think they could handle the CGI. So far on the CW they have been solid so if they go with a good creative team it will be good.

----------


## oasis1313

If they can stay true to the character--you're right, that's the big thing.

----------


## Csjbo08

I'm pretty excited for the show, there's definitely a chance that it will be garbage and I'm not expecting greatness but the same could be said for any upcoming property for the DCCU.  I don't have much of a problem with Nightwing/Starfire being a part of the show because I believe it was one of the best relationships in comics, I'd much rather see that explored than Dick/Babs.   It would definitely be interesting to see how Kori translates to TV. 

I don't think that this show will result in Dick Grayson coming back to the Teen Titans, it's one thing to insert Felicity and Diggle into the Green Arrow books, it's another to cut and paste Dick Grayson from _Grayson_  a comic book whose tone is very different from the current _Teen Titans_.  It would be awkward and it would really neuter Tim Drake, but we've seen DC do stranger things.

----------


## M L A

It truly is Dickember.
#5, Secret Origins, Annual #1, Injustice, and the announcement of this show.
Reminds me back when he was Batman and he could appear in at least two or three books a month.

Now if the show doesn't suck... now we're getting definitely getting somewhere.
tbh I'm worried they're not going to 'get' him right away. I don't really want it to be like Arrow where Ollie is gradually becoming less like Batman.

----------


## byrd156

> It truly is Dickember.
> #5, Secret Origins, Annual #1, Injustice, and the announcement of this show.
> Reminds me back when he was Batman and he could appear in at least two or three books a month.
> 
> Now if the show doesn't suck... now we're getting definitely getting somewhere.
> tbh I'm worried they're not going to 'get' him right away. I don't really want it to be like Arrow where Ollie is gradually becoming less like Batman.


I think he might go the I don't need anyone I'm my own man route and by the end of the first season he will be more and more like Dick Grayson.

----------


## Csjbo08

Just out of curiosity, what does sticking to his character mean in the context of the Teen Titans because from my experience reading Dick Grayson when he's with the Titans as Nightwing and when he's by himself as Nightwing, there are some differences in how he's portrayed.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I think he might go the I don't need anyone I'm my own man route and by the end of the first season he will be more and more like Dick Grayson.


Pardon?  His own man as compared to being Robin?  That would make narrative sense but I don't know if they can get the rights to the necessary characters (Batman, especially) to pull it off. If you mean ditching the rest of the Titans, that defeats the whole purpose of the show.  Besides, I am quite sure that TNT and Warner Bros will not pour a lot of many into effects-heavy characters only to have them shunted to the side.

----------


## byrd156

> Pardon?  His own man as compared to being Robin?  That would make narrative sense but I don't know if they can get the rights to the necessary characters (Batman, especially) to pull it off. If you mean ditching the rest of the Titans, that defeats the whole purpose of the show.  Besides, I am quite sure that TNT and Warner Bros will not pour a lot of many into effects-heavy characters only to have them shunted to the side.


What I mean is the when a character keeps trying to be by themselves or prove themselves when they don't need to. Think like Batman in the DCAU, when he was a part of the league but not really. I don't want that but I could see them going with that direction.

----------


## dick_wingnut

Man its weird seeing Teen titans trending so high on facebook right now.

Seeing Nightwing on TV is going be a surreal; a childhood dream come true.

Which era do you think they will primarily draw from? Judas Contract seems like a no brainer, but how will they handle Arrow stealing Deathstroke?

Just how supernatural do they get? Will we see Trigon? I cant imagine that looking anything but goofy on a TV budget.

----------


## Badou

> I'm pretty excited for the show, there's definitely a chance that it will be garbage and I'm not expecting greatness but the same could be said for any upcoming property for the DCCU.  I don't have much of a problem with Nightwing/Starfire being a part of the show because I believe it was one of the best relationships in comics, I'd much rather see that explored than Dick/Babs.   It would definitely be interesting to see how Kori translates to TV. 
> 
> I don't think that this show will result in Dick Grayson coming back to the Teen Titans, it's one thing to insert Felicity and Diggle into the Green Arrow books, it's another to cut and paste Dick Grayson from _Grayson_  a comic book whose tone is very different from the current _Teen Titans_.  It would be awkward and it would really neuter Tim Drake, but we've seen DC do stranger things.


It isn't just him being forced back into the Teen Titans that I am worried about, but him regressing to the same old narrative which is him just trying to prove himself to Batman. He is finally starting to move away from that with his new series after being stuck in the same stories for so long, but I would imagine that the show will be about him trying to find himself and so on which could lead the comics to go back and put him back in that same proving himself mentality that he doesn't need to be in. 

Also I think in the New 52 the Nighting identity is a dead end and completely broken. So I wouldn't really want to see him return to it but they might do that just to match the show. I know this is just all speculation so far but I really think this is going to be a tough sell.

----------


## WonderNight

> It isn't just him being forced back into the Teen Titans that I am worried about, but him regressing to the same old narrative which is him just trying to prove himself to Batman. He is finally starting to move away from that with his new series after being stuck in the same stories for so long, but I would imagine that the show will be about him trying to find himself and so on which could lead the comics to go back and put him back in that same proving himself mentality that he doesn't need to be in. 
> 
> Also I think in the New 52 the Nighting identity is a dead end and completely broken. So I wouldn't really want to see him return to it but they might do that just to match the show. I know this is just all speculation so far but I really think this is going to be a tough sell.


You say being nightwing in the new 52 is a dead end, titan teens is even more of a dead end. I want to see dick interact with 1st gen heros, its time for dick to start playing AAA and stop with the AA or A hero.

----------


## Punisher007

To be fair, we've NEVER seen NW in live-action.  So I'd give the show more slack when it comes to that sort of thing than the comics (where he has been around for DECADES).  Plus the show would be primarily meant for a GA (who very well might not know Dick beyond being Robin).

----------


## byrd156

> It isn't just him being forced back into the Teen Titans that I am worried about, but him regressing to the same old narrative which is him just trying to prove himself to Batman. He is finally starting to move away from that with his new series after being stuck in the same stories for so long, but I would imagine that the show will be about him trying to find himself and so on which could lead the comics to go back and put him back in that same proving himself mentality that he doesn't need to be in. 
> 
> Also I think in the New 52 the Nighting identity is a dead end and completely broken. So I wouldn't really want to see him return to it but they might do that just to match the show. I know this is just all speculation so far but I really think this is going to be a tough sell.


Well maybe if he does go back to being Nightwing, there might be some actual significance to it rather than just a not being Robin anymore. I'm all for Nightwing coming back, but only when it's the right time and it has to be as awesome as it was when he first became Nightwing.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

In other news, Nightwing Vol 1: Bludhaven is out on Comixology, and it looks like the next collection is coming out in June.

----------


## Csjbo08

> It isn't just him being forced back into the Teen Titans that I am worried about, but him regressing to the same old narrative which is him just trying to prove himself to Batman. He is finally starting to move away from that with his new series after being stuck in the same stories for so long, but I would imagine that the show will be about him trying to find himself and so on which could lead the comics to go back and put him back in that same proving himself mentality that he doesn't need to be in. 
> 
> Also I think in the New 52 the Nighting identity is a dead end and completely broken. So I wouldn't really want to see him return to it but they might do that just to match the show. I know this is just all speculation so far but I really think this is going to be a tough sell.


I never interpreted Dick Grayson's narrative in the Teen Titans to be Dick trying to prove himself to Batman, so I don't think that will be a problem.  

The new 52 Nightwing identity is not a dead end and is not completely broken, to say so is incredibly over-dramatic and just pure nonsense.

----------


## Badou

> I never interpreted Dick Grayson's narrative in the Teen Titans to be Dick trying to prove himself to Batman, so I don't think that will be a problem.  
> 
> The new 52 Nightwing identity is not a dead end and is not completely broken, to say so is incredibly over-dramatic and just pure nonsense.


How is the Nightwing identity not a dead end? What can Nightwing offer the character that he can't now do as Grayson? Unless they do some major retcons and try to give Nightwing his history back I don't see the benefit of him going back. Nightwing is just a knockoff Batman at this point in the New 52 and I think DC realized that and was why they decided to shake the character up by "killing" the identity.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yeah the promotion for Nightwing has been sub-par and drawn to close to batman and that reversed how great he became in the New Teen Titans and Bludhaven early days. It is okay to be close to Batman in a Friend/Brother/Son/Mentor and occasionally partner. Grayson has been close to that but if they can return balance where he can teem with the bat books here and there but have Grayson to himself. This is his best potential for character growth and crossing new territory because everyone needs to acknowledge but not hold to dear to the past. With Nightwing coming up in the Titans series which I think with a solid, young and upcoming cast can be equal or better than Arrow/Flash due to a less CW tone in story compared to the TNT series of Falling Skies and the Last Ship.

----------


## sidekick77

> *I never interpreted Dick Grayson's narrative in the Teen Titans to be Dick trying to prove himself to Batman*, so I don't think that will be a problem.  
> 
> The new 52 Nightwing identity is not a dead end and is not completely broken, to say so is incredibly over-dramatic and just pure nonsense.


Ditto on the bold.  Since when has the TT/NTT franchise ever been about Dick proving himself to Bruce or being 'Batman-lite'?  He was at his most autonomous in this period and was leading DC's top-selling team book.  When the GRAYSON title was first announced, I know there many who were fearful over what that meant for Dick's future, but those with a positive attitude about his departure from the Batbooks were taking a risk that it would be a repeat of NNT creativity and movement.

The sad irony to Dick's career was that the Nightwing solo in the 90's was his most regressive.  CORRECTION: His absence from any comic book for almost two years following the implosion of the Titans was his lowest point.  In a post-Miller, Batman-hyped era, where Legacy heroes were running strong and the new modern sidekick was coming up fast from behind--Dick's generation of heroes really felt the pinch.  

For all his flaws, Geoff Johns loves his Bronze/Silver Age nostalgia and has never written Bruce as a Bat-god.  I also find him the complete opposite of Chuck Dixon and Devin Grayson in terms of writing style.  

So why are we suddenly worried about Nightwing's depiction in a Titans' project, whose trademark so far is to not really talk about Batman?  Is it wrong to be excited over this news?  Especially if the success keeps the Nightwing name in the public eye while Dick continues his critically praised run in GRAYSON.

----------


## Csjbo08

> How is the Nightwing identity not a dead end? What can Nightwing offer the character that he can't now do as Grayson? Unless they do some major retcons and try to give Nightwing his history back I don't see the benefit of him going back. Nightwing is just a knockoff Batman at this point in the New 52 and I think DC realized that and was why they decided to shake the character up by "killing" the identity.


I never said that Dick going back to Nightwing was for the better, nor did I advocate for it, just that if he were to go back to Nightwing, it won't be a dead end.  Just because a character had some of their history erased from a reboot (which tends to happen in reboots) doesn't mean that they can't create new history and he could do that as Nightwing or Agent 37, as long as he has a capable creative team behind him and editorial gives the character the ability to carve a place in the DCU.

----------


## colossus34

> Man its weird seeing Teen titans trending so high on facebook right now.
> 
> Seeing Nightwing on TV is going be a surreal; a childhood dream come true.
> 
> Which era do you think they will primarily draw from? Judas Contract seems like a no brainer, but how will they handle Arrow stealing Deathstroke?
> 
> Just how supernatural do they get? Will we see Trigon? I cant imagine that looking anything but goofy on a TV budget.


It's a long way coming. The fact the Titans couldn't even get an animated show in the 90's when X-men was all over the airwaves is pretty pathetic since they were head to head in popularity in their heydays. If the Nightwing on the show is even a fraction of the badass/competent character on Arrow is then he'll cement himself in the public consciousness and we'll probably get a Grayson cancellation and new Nightwing #1 in a couple years with an actual A list writing team. I'd be all for that.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/542707200230436865

Huh. I wonder if this is for Grayson, or another secret book.

----------


## byrd156

> It's a long way coming. The fact the Titans couldn't even get an animated show in the 90's when X-men was all over the airwaves is pretty pathetic since they were head to head in popularity in their heydays. If the Nightwing on the show is even a fraction of the badass/competent character on Arrow is then he'll cement himself in the public consciousness and we'll probably get a Grayson cancellation and new Nightwing #1 in a couple years with an actual A list writing team. I'd be all for that.


That sounds fantastic.

----------


## Csjbo08

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/542707200230436865
> 
> Huh. I wonder if this is for Grayson, or another secret book.


Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume any time he talks about scripts it is for _Grayson_.  I've been trying to figure out who he was referring to, maybe it was a member of Stormwatch?  It's fun to speculate.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That interesting, I wonder if this is someone already in grayson or to be intoduced soon or neither

----------


## brucekent12

I believe that 2015 is the 75th anniversary of Robin, so there should be some good stuff concerning Dick coming down the road. What would be cool, is if there was a story with Dick as a spy that concerned a character or a situation that he had to remember a similar story that happened to him as Robin. Sound good?

----------


## Claude

> I believe that 2015 is the 75th anniversary of Robin, so there should be some good stuff concerning Dick coming down the road. What would be cool, is if there was a story with Dick as a spy that concerned a character or a situation that he had to remember a similar story that happened to him as Robin. Sound good?


Like the Future's End issue did? :P

It's a nice idea, but it's not really something that they can't do at any other time! Maybe a miniseries - Robin: Zero Year - where we get a proper story told around the development of Dick as Robin? Three to five issues of that would be pretty nice if done well.


ETA: Batman And Robin Annual #2 kind did both of our ideas!

----------


## OversizedLoad

> If the Nightwing on the show is *even a fraction of the badass/competent character on Arrow* is then he'll cement himself in the public consciousness and we'll probably get a Grayson cancellation and new Nightwing #1 in a couple years with an actual A list writing team. I'd be all for that.


I feel like we are not watching the same show, bad-ass & competent are not what I would call key Arrow traits.  This Bow&Arrow-Batman show hasn't led to A-list writing on his own title, so I'm not sure how you're reaching the "television show leads A-list comic team" conclusion. A successful Titans show will lead to nothing more than a successful show, thats it thats all.

----------


## oasis1313

> I believe that 2015 is the 75th anniversary of Robin, so there should be some good stuff concerning Dick coming down the road. What would be cool, is if there was a story with Dick as a spy that concerned a character or a situation that he had to remember a similar story that happened to him as Robin. Sound good?


I don't expect much fanfare for Dick.  Robin is a sidekick role, and if something was done, it would have all the past, present, and future Robins.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Until proven otherwise, I'm going to assume any time he talks about scripts it is for _Grayson_.  I've been trying to figure out who he was referring to, maybe it was a member of Stormwatch?  It's fun to speculate.


Latest tweet mentioned two scripts being turned in. Hmmm...

----------


## Badou

His 75th anniversary falls during Convergence, so that will be a problem. Still, given what they are doing with the Flash 75th anniversary I think that is the most they will do. Just some special variant covers, but the big question is if those covers will just feature Dick (like how all the Flash ones featured Barry) or if they will feature all the Robins. 

Though that is the best case scenario. The might not even do anything like they did with the Teen Titans 50th anniversary. I think all they did was release an omnibus for TT and so far that seems like all they are planning for Dick's 75th anniversary.

----------


## Claude

> His 75th anniversary falls during Convergence, so that will be a problem. Still, given what they are doing with the Flash 75th anniversary I think that is the most they will do. Just some special variant covers, but the big question is if those covers will just feature Dick (like how all the Flash ones featured Barry) or if they will feature all the Robins. 
> 
> Though that is the best case scenario. The might not even do anything like they did with the Teen Titans 50th anniversary. I think all they did was release an omnibus for TT and so far that seems like all they are planning for Dick's 75th anniversary.


Although I was surprised that the Robin The Boy Wonder omnibus did seem to be, from early indications, very much a Dick Book rather than an All Robins book.


Actually, know what I'd take? Batman Eternal was a "Batman Anniversary" book, and plotted as such. "Eternal 2" would work well as a Role Of Robin anniversary thing, with a sharp focus on the various Bat Sidekicks, Dick heading up the cast, and giving everyone a chance to shine - old or new. 

Well, honestly, what I'd _take_ would be a moderately big Dick And Damian story - but I think a Bat Sidekick Weekly would be a smart move anyway. Have to do _something_ with all these characters!

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

If they got to do a Robins Rises I don't see why it would not be fitting to do a Nightwing Returns/Grayson Rises to wash over Killing him in forever evil.

----------


## Dzetoun

What does everyone think of Dickcember so far?  What do you expect or hope for with _Secret Origins_ and the annual?

I thought _Grayson #5_ was very good in terms of characterization, but very light on the plot.  _Earth 2_ and _World's End_, however, have been godawful. The last issue featured Earth 2 Grayson deserting his son to remain by his dead wife's side in the face of a tidal wave.  Oh, and he abandoned his son to the care of Prime Earth John Constantine and friends. Yeah, that's right, John Constantine, who had introduced himself by magically forcing a rioter to commit suicide.

_Secret Origins_ will likely provide alternative to _Nightwing 30_ for entry into the series, probably with a different tone and emphasis.  It would be good if the annual took a look back at the Bat Family and stanched that bleeding narrative wound.

----------


## Claude

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/542707200230436865
> 
> Huh. I wonder if this is for Grayson, or another secret book.


Gave this a big ol' ponder, and the only character I can think of who's had that kind of power change in recent times is Supergirl. Possible Tom King was writing for Red Lantern Supergirl as a guest star, without realising that train had sailed?

----------


## sanderling

> Gave this a big ol' ponder, and the only character I can think of who's had that kind of power change in recent times is Supergirl. Possible Tom King was writing for Red Lantern Supergirl as a guest star, without realising that train had sailed?


I was thinking about it too and wasn't coming up with much.  Best I could do was Jenny Quantum's vs. Jenny Sparks' powerset?

I'm sure I am wrong, but it's fun to speculate.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Gave this a big ol' ponder, and the only character I can think of who's had that kind of power change in recent times is Supergirl. Possible Tom King was writing for Red Lantern Supergirl as a guest star, without realising that train had sailed?





> I was thinking about it too and wasn't coming up with much.  Best I could do was Jenny Quantum's vs. Jenny Sparks' powerset?
> 
> I'm sure I am wrong, but it's fun to speculate.


He may not even mean a DC character.  There's no reason he couldn't have picked up an issue at Marvel.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

He did tweet about submitting two scripts, so maybe he did pick something up.

----------


## Claude

> He did tweet about submitting two scripts, so maybe he did pick something up.


He's said before that he has some more DC work lined up that can't be talked about yet, for the Post Convergence reshuffle.

----------


## brucekent12

That would be cool, I really like his Grayson stories so far.

----------


## Claude

More variant covers in March. And Dick gets a pretty cool one!

----------


## OWL45

> More variant covers in March. And Dick gets a pretty cool one!


Wow! Awesome variant cover.

----------


## Csjbo08

Nice little homage to _Enter the Dragon_ though the _Justice League_ variant takes the cake lol

----------


## K. Jones

> More variant covers in March. And Dick gets a pretty cool one!


That's exquisite. Is that Cowan & Sienkiewicsz? Either way I'm in love with 70s era poster design. 60s as well, but the 70s hits a little closer to home because you'd still see that art kicking around throughout my youth in the 80s and 90s.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Love that Cover, They Can make a whole movie out of that whole thing.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

That is amazing

----------


## JasonTodd428

I really love that cover.

----------


## spark627

I really wish they did the Magic Mike cover for Grayson... that would've been amazing  :Smile:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I really wish they did the Magic Mike cover for Grayson... that would've been amazing


The issue itself will be a Magic Mike parody.

----------


## spark627

> The issue itself will be a Magic Mike parody.


oh. ok. SOLD.

----------


## Vinsanity

I would have loved a homage to either







Those posters to me would serve as better inspiration. That being said, I do love the cover though.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I think they were going for more iconic or classic posters. I don't think Ghost Protocol is one of those instantly recognizable posters. The From Russia With Love one would have been great, though. But who would be in the background?

----------


## Vinsanity

> I think they were going for more iconic or classic posters. I don't think Ghost Protocol is one of those instantly recognizable posters. The From Russia With Love one would have been great, though. But who would be in the background?


Helena and Agent 8 and just have an action shot.

Mission Impossible because I mean Dick does look like Ethan Hunt somewhat compared to Bond and it is more like with the whole Spyral thing. I don't know made sense to me.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Comicchron's sales estimates are out. Grayson pulls in 47k, good for #35.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Comicchron's sales estimates are out. Grayson pulls in 47k, good for #35.


Yeah.  It's declined about 41% from issue #1 to issue #4, which is pretty standard.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It seems like a bit of a drop compared to last week (I think it was around ~52-53K). Still, it'll probably stabilize around 44-45K.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

It is Good considering while the reviews are good/solid, there are gripes about less action and plot. Considering the backlash when initially launched Grayson shows it can sell. Only DC titles that beat it are Batman/Batgirl and Superman Unchained.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It seems like a bit of a drop compared to last week (I think it was around ~52-53K). Still, it'll probably stabilize around 44-45K.


Yes, there was a small drop from issue #2 to issue #3.  However, that was probably because gimmick month intervened between those two issues and put the merchants in something of a holding pattern as far as the newer titles. If _Grayson_ follows standard patterns, which overall it has so far, then it should be pretty much at its stability point with standard monthly attrition from now on.  Of course, there are always exceptions.

----------


## M L A

By the way if y'all were wondering what second script and powers King was talking about on twitter, it has something to do with Teen Titans because he seems to be one of the writers of the annual in today's solicitations.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Yep, you're right. I wonder what King will do with Superboy.

----------


## Claude

Good for him! I'm not especially interested in Superboy, but he's a character who really seems to need a bit of love right now!

----------


## OversizedLoad

grayson8.jpgGRSON_Cv8_movieposter-var-.jpg

*GRAYSON #8*

Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Bill Sienkiewicz.

Grayson is about to fly over this issue's cliffhanger with no safety net! You won't believe what happens!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 4.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

God DAMN @ that cover. Looks like it's gonna happen?

----------


## M L A

lmao that cover.

----------


## spark627

Can't wait! Love this book so much!

----------


## Badou

> Comicchron's sales estimates are out. Grayson pulls in 47k, good for #35.


Still off the pace of the New 52 Nightwing series, but I am going to guess that by March it will probably be in the low 40Ks. If a book loses 2-3% each month that is very stable. So that should put it around the low 40Ks. Of course with DC giving it a special variant cover each andy every month it will be difficult to know where the real sales level is.

----------


## Claude

> Still off the pace of the New 52 Nightwing series, but I am going to guess that by March it will probably be in the low 40Ks. If a book loses 2-3% each month that is very stable. So that should put it around the low 40Ks. Of course with DC giving it a special variant cover each andy every month it will be difficult to know where the real sales level is.


And, of course, the Nightwing series had a pretty solid tie to the ongoing Batman event of the time - and directly crossed over pretty heavily. It'll be interesting to see if _Grayson_ eventually does anything similar with another title, and if that boosts the numbers.

I mean, I'm not good on Comics Sales - but it's outselling Action Comics, so I'd have to guess that's pretty good.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Love the Grayson series and that cover looks to be a great issue, no more character profile its all action and performance from now on.

----------


## Badou

Nightwing was outselling Action too for a while I believe. It is going to be interesting to see how the variants help the book going forward compared to how Nightwing was helped out by the Owls Batman event. It's two different approaches. Though come June I would imagine that it will start tying into a lot of books again to bring more attention to the book so it doesn't become lost/overlooked in the huge influx of new titles and events that will arrive starting in June.

----------


## Badou

> grayson8.jpgGRSON_Cv8_movieposter-var-.jpg
> 
> *GRAYSON #8*
> 
> Written by Tim Seeley and Tom King, art and cover by Mikel Janin, variant cover by Bill Sienkiewicz.
> 
> Grayson is about to fly over this issue's cliffhanger with no safety net! You won't believe what happens!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 4.


I just realized something. This issue is going to end in a cliffhanger and we won't get a new issue for 2 months after it is released... I thought writers were supposed to wrap up their stories by March?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I have a feeling that they would not put him in a position where his life is on the line, maybe a superhero turned spyand now Director Grayson is what it could be.

----------


## Claude

> I just realized something. This issue is going to end in a cliffhanger and we won't get a new issue for 2 months after it is released... I thought writers were supposed to wrap up their stories by March?


My theory runs to two options.

1) Minos is taken down, "What Is Next For Spyral?" is the cliffhanger.

2) It's a cliffhanger leading into that month's issue of Justice League, probably involving Owlman.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I doubt that the solicit would actually spoil the presence of a cliffhanger. It could refer to a literal cliffhanger.

----------


## berserkerclaw

Weird solit. But q confrontation with Minor is awesome.  I wonder how bad it is. Could he already be, taking him down? I'm intrigued

----------


## K. Jones

I love how like ... March = The End. Every story wraps. 12+ titles are jettisoned as they finish. Enjoy Convergence, oh yeah, and see you in July.

Oh, EXCEPT ... f***ing Grayson ends on a cliffhanger. Enjoy your April and May, folks!

Now that's how you create notoriety. It's possibly more evil and brilliant than all the Morrison run delays. (I did notice that Justice League is the only other title that explicitly gets to set up (and confirm) post-Convergence direction.)

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I doubt that there will be a cliffhanger. This is basically the end of the first "season" that Seeley and King wrote. And the solicits for Grayson have been misleading. My guess is that an actual cliff will be involved.

----------


## brucekent12

Maybe Dick takes Minos down and he learns there's a bigger bad actually running Spyral, and Dick, thinking he was done with the spy business realizes there's more work to b done.

----------


## Godlike13

Kathy Kane appearance maybe...

----------


## Dzetoun

> I doubt that there will be a cliffhanger. This is basically the end of the first "season" that Seeley and King wrote. And the solicits for Grayson have been misleading. My guess is that an actual cliff will be involved.


I expect that there will be a cliffhanger or a big reveal.  It fits with the cinematic feel they are going for.  In fact, given the tone of the series and the nature of the hiatus, it seems kind of inevitable.  The solicits haven't been very helpful, but they haven't been particularly clever or given to puns, either, so I would bet against a literal cliff.

----------


## byrd156

So what is going to happen to Dick after Convergence is over? Any ideas?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Maybe Mr. Minos = Kathy Kane. As for the cliffhanger, I just hope none of it makes us wonder if he is still alive for two months but I don't think the writers would be foolish to threaten Dick life in such a way. I am leaning to there being a new threat that has him stay a little longer in the Spy game, hopefully as a leader of something.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

I bet that Grayson will finally confront his deadliest enemies: the chair and the rock.

----------


## tako

> Yeah.  It's declined about 41% from issue #1 to issue #4, which is pretty standard.


That's a pretty disappointing drop for one of DC's best books.

----------


## Dzetoun

> That's a pretty disappointing drop for one of DC's best books.


Kind of par for the course, these days.  Except for gold standards like _Batman_ and _Justice League_, or the occasional black swan like _Harley Quinn_, this is the way books go.  If you want to look at things from a brighter perspective, the sales figures for Issue #1 were probably significantly inflated by the Batman variant covers available that month.  The Jock cover for _Grayson_ was pretty popular, it seems.  If, as a guesstimate, we say that 6,000 or so of the initial sales were due to the Batman cover, then the "actual" decline from issue #1 to issue #4 is only about 37%, which is very good in modern terms and roughly similar to the drop seen by the re-launched _Teen Titans_, which premiered lower but without a variant cover.  Meanwhile _Spiderman 2099_, which premiered higher than _Grayson_, has had a 57% drop.  

I agree that it is disappointing that quality is not rewarded more highly in the comics market.  But, once again, I'm afraid that is par for the course -- as Lemire and Sorrentino can attest.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Do the sales figures include digital sales? if not that should still be good for Grayson. Grayson sales are solid in my opinion since this does have a good number of people who want to see Nightwing return and the book is essentially isolated from the rest of the main DC universe.

----------


## Maxpower00044

> I bet that Grayson will finally confront his deadliest enemies: the chair and the rock.


Hahaha. This post is GOLD.

----------


## OWL45

> Do the sales figures include digital sales? if not that should still be good for Grayson. Grayson sales are solid in my opinion since this does have a good number of people who want to see Nightwing return and the book is essentially isolated from the rest of the main DC universe.


The digital sales are not included in that total. The digital  sales are very good. The book is doing very well with all things considered.

----------


## Badou

The book is selling behind the New 52 Nightwing series, but it is still ahead of where most typical Nightwing books sell at. So it is doing quite well, and that is with it still being very isolated from the rest of the DCU, using mostly no name or low tier villains, and not having great buzz when the series launched. The good reviews will probably help the series decline at a slower rate which should help it long term. 

The only thing I am a little worried about is how the series does when DC launches so many other new series in 2015. I hope he is part of at least one of those new series so he isn't swept away in the flood of new #1s. It is what happened to Gambit's last solo when Marvel did their Marvel Now campaign.

----------


## oasis1313

> Hahaha. This post is GOLD.


Grayson has already confronted the rock--and the rock won.

----------


## OWL45

> The book is selling behind the New 52 Nightwing series, but it is still ahead of where most typical Nightwing books sell at. So it is doing quite well, and that is with it still being very isolated from the rest of the DCU, using mostly no name or low tier villains, and not having great buzz when the series launched. The good reviews will probably help the series decline at a slower rate which should help it long term. 
> 
> The only thing I am a little worried about is how the series does when DC launches so many other new series in 2015. I hope he is part of at least one of those new series so he isn't swept away in the flood of new #1s. It is what happened to Gambit's last solo when Marvel did their Marvel Now campaign.


Nightwing NU52 was selling around 38K after the crossovers. How is this series behind? It's selling more.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Maybe Mr. Minos = Kathy Kane. As for the cliffhanger, I just hope none of it makes us wonder if he is still alive for two months but I don't think the writers would be foolish to threaten Dick life in such a way. I am leaning to there being a new threat that has him stay a little longer in the Spy game, hopefully as a leader of something.


It would be interesting if he starts leading spyral. But I do wonder about Kathy kane

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing NU52 was selling around 38K after the crossovers. How is this series behind? It's selling more.


Numbers taken from comicsbeat and comichron. 

Nightwing #1   -- 62,717........................87,561 <----with reorders added
Nightwing #2   -- 65,749........................73,054
Nightwing #3   -- 57,688........................64,098 
Nightwing #4   -- 51,668........................57,409 
Nightwing #5   -- 50,436........................56,040 

Grayson #1     -- 81,433 
Grayson #2     -- 56,486 
Grayson Futures End #1 -- 76,551 
Grayson #3     -- 52,849 
Grayson #4     -- 47,590

I was talking about where each series started. Grayson is off the pace of Nightwing but still selling well historically for the title. I don't think it is really fair to compare Nightwing #24 to Grayson #4 or where the series was before they cancelled it for Grayson.

----------


## OWL45

> Numbers taken from comicsbeat and comichron. 
> 
> Nightwing #1   -- 62,717........................87,561 <----with reorders added
> Nightwing #2   -- 65,749........................73,054
> Nightwing #3   -- 57,688........................64,098 
> Nightwing #4   -- 51,668........................57,409 
> Nightwing #5   -- 50,436........................56,040 
> 
> Grayson #1     -- 81,433 
> ...


Nightwing was heavly tied into the whole owl storyline which propped it up but I agree comparison is a little unfair given the circumstance .

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing was heavly tied into the whole owl storyline which propped it up but I agree comparison is a little unfair given the circumstance .


Yeah that is why the reorders are so high for Nightwing and why I decided to separate them. Taking out the reorders shows how the series as being ordered before the Owls storyline really took over. 

So the original Nightwing and Grayson numbers are fairly close. Just a few thousand off. Of course Grayson has all the variants to help it and Nightwing had the start of the New 52 hype. So it is difficult to compare the two real closely.

----------


## dick_wingnut

> The digital sales are not included in that total. The digital  sales are very good. The book is doing very well with all things considered.


where can you see the digital sales?

----------


## napolid

> Numbers taken from comicsbeat and comichron. 
> 
> Nightwing #1   -- 62,717........................87,561 <----with reorders added
> Nightwing #2   -- 65,749........................73,054
> Nightwing #3   -- 57,688........................64,098 
> Nightwing #4   -- 51,668........................57,409 
> Nightwing #5   -- 50,436........................56,040 
> 
> Grayson #1     -- 81,433 
> ...



It also launched with the new 52

----------


## Badou

So Donna is back for those that didn't know. Her origin is completely different but at least unlike Wally she appears to be age appropriate. So her and Dick can be peers maybe. I do hope the two get to interact next year, even if she is going to be a WW villain for a while, but even if they are friends, lovers, teammates, or whatever I hope he can be one of the characters to help her adjust to the normal world if they use her outside of Paradise Island so they can rebuild their relationship. 

I still remember Donna's last appearance before Flashpoint and the New 52 in the JSA book where her and Dick had that memorable talk at the end of the last issue where she questioned if anyone would remember what they did (it got very meta referencing the things like the difficulties of the JSA run to Donna not being part of the reboot) and Dick reassured her that not everyone is going to forget her. It was touching. 




> It also launched with the new 52


Yeah I said that in my next post. With the "start of the New 52 hype" behind it. Didn't have the special variant covers though.

----------


## Dzetoun

> So Donna is back for those that didn't know. Her origin is completely different but at least unlike Wally she appears to be age appropriate. So her and Dick can be peers maybe. I do hope the two get to interact next year, even if she is going to be a WW villain for a while, but even if they are friends, lovers, teammates, or whatever I hope he can be one of the characters to help her adjust to the normal world if they use her outside of Paradise Island so they can rebuild their relationship. 
> 
> I still remember Donna's last appearance before Flashpoint and the New 52 in the JSA book where her and Dick had that memorable talk at the end of the last issue where she questioned if anyone would remember what they did (it got very meta referencing the things like the difficulties of the JSA run to Donna not being part of the reboot) and Dick reassured her that not everyone is going to forget her. It was touching.


Yes, that is an important development and an interesting possibility.  Meanwhile, Damian is back as well, which one would think would lead to interaction sometime in the upcoming weeks/months.  But first we will have to see how and whether Tomasi addresses the Grayson situation ("dead" and all), then how or whether Seeley/King address Damian's resurrection.

----------


## Dzetoun

In other news, Snyder confirmed yesterday that we will be seeing Dick Grayson in ENDGAME.  He a announced it in his interview with Newsarama.  He did not elaborate as to when or how.

----------


## HellHere

> In other news, Snyder confirmed yesterday that we will be seeing Dick Grayson in ENDGAME.  He a announced it in his interview with Newsarama.  He did not elaborate as to when or how.


Capullo tweeted a pic that he teased as being Nightwing. Pinch of salt and all that, but I don't think he'll be "dead" for very much longer.

----------


## byrd156

> So Donna is back for those that didn't know. Her origin is completely different but at least unlike Wally she appears to be age appropriate. So her and Dick can be peers maybe. I do hope the two get to interact next year, even if she is going to be a WW villain for a while, but even if they are friends, lovers, teammates, or whatever I hope he can be one of the characters to help her adjust to the normal world if they use her outside of Paradise Island so they can rebuild their relationship. 
> 
> I still remember Donna's last appearance before Flashpoint and the New 52 in the JSA book where her and Dick had that memorable talk at the end of the last issue where she questioned if anyone would remember what they did (it got very meta referencing the things like the difficulties of the JSA run to Donna not being part of the reboot) and Dick reassured her that not everyone is going to forget her. It was touching. 
> \


That end scene is one of my favorite moments of those two, and it really highlights how much they have gone through and the strength of their relationship. I really hope the being "dead" thing will be resolved by the end of Endgame and get Dick back into the Superhero world rather than the spy world.

----------


## spark627

I'm really hoping he stays Agent Grayson for a while. The books is so interesting and feels unique. We have multiple books about people in costumes flying across Gotham, I'd rather Dick be unique for a while longer.

----------


## Claude

> I'm really hoping he stays Agent Grayson for a while. The books is so interesting and feels unique. We have multiple books about people in costumes flying across Gotham, I'd rather Dick be unique for a while longer.


Me too, but - in fairness - there's no reason why eventually Agent Grayson can't operate alongside other Superheroes. In many ways, it makes him a more logical "Guest Star" in others' books than Nightwing.


Also, what do we think? We know almost _nothing_ about next week's Annual - will it be the Damian Is Alive issue? A lot of scope there to reiterate Dick's mission, his motivations, and clear up the current state of play with the Bat Family - whether Damian ends the issue aware that Dick is alive or not.

Whatever I think about Tomasi's writing, incidentally, he still has an _excellent_ editor's instinct and an unerring instinct for who should be in the room and when. The only way I can imagine him not including Dick in "Robin Rises: Alpha" in some way would be if he wasn't allowed to.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I think eventually, he could bring back elements of his Nightwing costume, and even use "Agent Nightwing" as an alias. He can still be "Nightwing" as well as DCU's resident spy. Nightwing doesn't have to stay attached to a particular city the same way Batman does.

----------


## Badou

Unless they retcon the rest of the world knowing who Nightwing is then there is no point really to go back to Nightwing. 




> In other news, Snyder confirmed yesterday that we will be seeing Dick Grayson in ENDGAME.  He a announced it in his interview with Newsarama.  He did not elaborate as to when or how.


Haha, it is funny. I constantly say how I want to see Dick more involved in the DCU and that he is too isolated, but I would have been fine with him sitting out of Endgame. Since he is probably just going to get jobbed by Joker to make Batman save him again. So expectations are set very low with Endgame. xD

----------


## Csjbo08

Well I can see Agent Grayson's costume changing to resemble pre-52 Nightwing a little more considering how the color scheme now includes blue.  However, to include 'Nightwing' in any part of his alias isn't really needed because the moniker of Nightwing was defined by Dick Grayson but Dick Grayson was not defined by the moniker of Nightwing.  If a new Nightwing were to emerge, I'd rather it be either a Kryptonian or Damian Wayne.  




> Unless they retcon the rest of the world knowing who Nightwing is then there is no point really to go back to Nightwing. 
> 
> Haha, it is funny. I constantly say how I want to see Dick more involved in the DCU and that he is too isolated, but I would have been fine with him sitting out of Endgame. Since he is probably just going to get jobbed by Joker to make Batman save him again. So expectations are set very low with Endgame. xD


Same here, I want his presence in the DCU to expand but not just limited to Batman and Gotham.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

If they bring him back so the Batman can save him from the Joker it would be idiotic and another attempt to reduce his standing in the new 52, they would be better off cutting him completly out of all Batman books. In the new 52 as Nightwing he is basically irrelevant in the grand sceme of things as he is no longer close to anyone really and that is not even after his death. Batman related books have not really been hurt by his absence as their are so many other characters that are being used and some where given his history and personal connections. It is funny how going back to Batman's early history that after Gordon he was the second major character to be included in Bat titles (Alfred did not show up until 1943), he is constantly being pushed aside. I do trust Snyder and he has written Dick well, so I hope it is some epic return that shows respect. Also with Damian's return, I hope they don't drag out this superpower/Dick is dead so everybody act like he was never close to you. I honestly don't know why characters get killed off in comics, they will eventually return or get retconned.

----------


## tako

New cover for Secret Origins #8.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I wonder if it will dwell on his Robin/Nightwing past, or if it'll just focus on the transition to Agent Grayson.

----------


## Claude

Ooooooh - now he has _two_ guns!

----------


## tako

> Ooooooh - now he has _two_ guns!


Three, actually.

----------


## Badou

Looks like he has his "lower weapon" poking out there in his Robin costume.  xD

----------


## byrd156

> I think eventually, he could bring back elements of his Nightwing costume, and even use "Agent Nightwing" as an alias. He can still be "Nightwing" as well as DCU's resident spy. Nightwing doesn't have to stay attached to a particular city the same way Batman does.


When I think of Nightwing I think New York where the Titans were located in NTT and Bludhaven when I think cities that are connected to him. Besides Gotham.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It doesn't help that he essentially has a giant arrow pointing to it.

----------


## brucekent12

There's no good reason Dick and Helena couldn't be assigned cases in the States to find costumed people with abilities, where h could meet up with other DC superheros. Like in Metropolis, where he could work with Superman. Not that Clark would have to save him, but work wih him.

----------


## oasis1313

> It doesn't help that he essentially has a giant arrow pointing to it.


Supergirl also has a great "Hey--look at my crotch!" costume.

----------


## BloodOps

> In other news, Snyder confirmed yesterday that we will be seeing Dick Grayson in ENDGAME.  He a announced it in his interview with Newsarama.  He did not elaborate as to when or how.


Not surprised, we'll probably see the Bat family brought in by next issue but Dick's role is unknown because I always expected him to be announced as not dead in Eternal or Grayson.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Here's what he specifically said:




> Barbara's coming in the story later. You're going to see a lot of that character soon.
> 
> You're going to see everybody from Dick Grayson to people you wouldn't expect.

----------


## Godlike13

> New cover for Secret Origins #8.


Hate it. Hate the ears, the I smell a fart face, the two guns. Just an ugly cover  :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

Given what Doyle said about whats coming for 2015 in his interview, it seems like Dick being "dead" might not be lasting too much longer.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Stephen Mooney did the interior art for both the Annual and Secret Origins, so hopefully it'll look better than that cover.

And since Dick's showing up in Endgame, there's a good chance THE SECRET is revealed in Eternal.

----------


## OWL45

> Stephen Mooney did the interior art for both the Annual and Secret Origins, so hopefully it'll look better than that cover.
> 
> And since Dick's showing up in Endgame, there's a good chance THE SECRET is revealed in Eternal.


Maybe, I don't see him going back to Nightwing with them giving him a secret origin issue and an Annual. I read the article with Doyle and he seems to like the different Bat characters spear heading different genres and how the books are performing.

----------


## Godlike13

> Stephen Mooney did the interior art for both the Annual and Secret Origins, so hopefully it'll look better than that
> 
> And since Dick's showing up in Endgame, there's a good chance THE SECRET is revealed in Eternal.


Didn't Mooney do the FE issue? That was good, so im sure the inferiors will look fine. Still that cover is just a full on miss for me.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Yeah Mooney's art in FE was fine, it's just hard to compare to what Mikel Janin has been doing.

----------


## dick_wingnut

Jesus christ at the dual wielding guns.

Just let this sacrilegious abomination swirl the drain already.

Its like 90's Image has risen from the grave and bitten my favorite character.

----------


## BloodOps

ugh that cover is terrible

----------


## tako

> Jesus christ at the dual wielding guns.
> 
> Just let this sacrilegious abomination swirl the drain already.
> 
> Its like 90's Image has risen from the grave and bitten my favorite character.


not really

----------


## brucekent12

If they are going to reveal Dick being alive {which I'm sure they will do by March and the start of Convergence) why would it be done in Eternal. Not saying it couldn't, but it would make more sense for it to be done it Grayson, his home book so to speak. Maybe Damian would sneak up on Bruce when he's on the phone with Dick or something.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> If they are going to reveal Dick being alive {which I'm sure they will do by March and the start of Convergence) why would it be done in Eternal. Not saying it couldn't, but it would make more sense for it to be done it Grayson, his home book so to speak. Maybe Damian would sneak up on Bruce when he's on the phone with Dick or something.


Well, they've barely addressed him being "dead" in Grayson and it's off doing his own thing. It's only in the other books his absence feels like a big deal.

----------


## Dzetoun

Here is a picture Stephen Mooney, artist for both the _Grayson_ annual and the _Secret Origins_ Grayson story, posted today on his Twitter feed:

Mooney Twitter.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

Much better. That looks good.

----------


## OWL45

> Much better. That looks good.


That looks really good. I can't wait for Wendesday.

----------


## Badou

Aside from the crappy Robin costume, which isn't a fault of this artist as he just has to deal with it, it looks good. I thought his Grayson issue felt rushed and the proportions were off in some of the panels. So hopefully he had enough time to not feel rush with this issue. 

Though is that supposed to be Bruce or DickBats there?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Aside from the crappy Robin costume, which isn't a fault of this artist as he just has to deal with it, it looks good. I thought his Grayson issue felt rushed and the proportions were off in some of the panels. So hopefully he had enough time to not feel rush with this issue. 
> 
> Though is that supposed to be Bruce or DickBats there?


I think it's Dickbats.  It's too young and svelte for Bruce, and it occupies the central place in a splash page primarily about Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Given the identical Batman at the bottom talking to Dick, im gonna say its Bruce.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Here is a picture Stephen Mooney, artist for both the _Grayson_ annual and the _Secret Origins_ Grayson story, posted today on his Twitter feed:
> 
> Attachment 14745


Damn, that looks good. Better than in FE, I think.

----------


## Godlike13

It seems more detailed than in FE.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> I think it's Dickbats.  It's too young and svelte for Bruce, and it occupies the central place in a splash page primarily about Dick.


The belt and the wrist blades look like Bruce's. It's hard to tell what the context of this page is. It could easily be "influential people in Dick's life", though I'd imagine folks like Alfred, Barbara, and Damian would be more important than Ras or Catwoman.

----------


## Conway

> The belt and the wrist blades look like Bruce's. It's hard to tell what the context of this page is. It could easily be "influential people in Dick's life", though I'd imagine folks like Alfred, Barbara, and Damian would be more important than Ras or Catwoman.


Yeah, but in the middle of Dick's story it should be Dickbats. The fact that there's no Jason, Red Robin, or Damian in the picture suggests that it's about the evolution of his ability to deal with the opponents and not the influential people in his life. Does anyone know who he's holding by the collar there though? There was no Huntress or Helena around at that time anymore. (That cover is still awful though.)

----------


## Claude

> I think it's Dickbats.  It's too young and svelte for Bruce, and it occupies the central place in a splash page primarily about Dick.


Surely it's "a younger Batman reveals his identity to Dick" moment captured there, as part of a "this is what we did together" splash? So it's Bruce in his younger and svelter days.... There's also the Bat Motif, and the fact that the Bat Villains seem to be included as part of his cape. Bruce As Gateway - if it was Dick, you'd expect him perhaps to be nearer the centre with the other elements around him.




> Yeah, but in the middle of Dick's story it should be Dickbats. The fact that there's no Jason, Red Robin, or Damian in the picture suggests that it's about the evolution of his ability to deal with the opponents and not the influential people in his life.


I would dispute that Jason and Tim were ever especially "influential" in Dick's life - they became major players only when he was pretty "fully formed" and settled in his role, and most of that was in the old continuity. 




> Does anyone know who he's holding by the collar there though?


Removed cowl, isn't it?

----------


## Godlike13

> Removed cowl, isn't it?


Looks like his cape to me.

----------


## oasis1313

> Here is a picture Stephen Mooney, artist for both the _Grayson_ annual and the _Secret Origins_ Grayson story, posted today on his Twitter feed:
> 
> Attachment 14745


Anthony Perkins is Batman(?), in his secret identity as Norman Bates.

----------


## HellHere

> The belt and the wrist blades look like Bruce's. It's hard to tell what the context of this page is. It could easily be "influential people in Dick's life", though I'd imagine folks like Alfred, Barbara, and Damian would be more important than Ras or Catwoman.



It looks like everything inside the cape he's holding are the opponents he's had in his life with Batman. Helena is behind the cape because she's not part of that life, but she's still on the side of his enemies.


Dick is not looking too good there though.

----------


## Conway

> It looks like everything inside the cape he's holding are the opponents he's had in his life with Batman. Helena is behind the cape because she's not part of that life, but she's still on the side of his enemies.
> 
> 
> Dick is not looking too good there though.


See now that makes sense.

Oh, and The Cowl is murder on the hair isn't it. That's worse than helmet head.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> It looks like everything inside the cape he's holding are the opponents he's had in his life with Batman. Helena is behind the cape because she's not part of that life, but she's still on the side of his enemies.
> 
> 
> Dick is not looking too good there though.


Oooh, that is a nice read. I think it could also mean that Helena is the next stage of his life. He's leaving the tutelage of Bruce to enter that of Helena's. It would fit within Tom King's theme of Helena being Dick's new Batman.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Oooh, that is a nice read. I think it could also mean that Helena is the next stage of his life. He's leaving the tutelage of Bruce to enter that of Helena's. It would fit within Tom King's theme of Helena being Dick's new Batman.


I agree with that theory.

----------


## OversizedLoad

The writing team should really put out a new flavor text/solicit for the Annual.  The old solicit and cover had me hyped for some Helena B. history/backstory/motivation type stuff. But between the comments about the change in focus and the interior art shown I'm not sure what this issue is going to be about.

----------


## Dzetoun

> The writing team should really put out a new flavor text/solicit for the Annual.  The old solicit and cover had me hyped for some Helena B. history/backstory/motivation type stuff. But between the comments about the change in focus and the interior art shown I'm not sure what this issue is going to be about.


We may get a preview tomorrow.  King has said the story is about spies, the lies they tell, and the cost of those lies.  The art Mooney put out may well be from the SECRET ORIGINS story, rather than the annual.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> We may get a preview tomorrow.  King has said the story is about spies, the lies they tell, and the cost of those lies.  The art Mooney put out may well be from the SECRET ORIGINS story, rather than the annual.


Yeah I read something to that effect in an interview. Just seems strange to switch gears from a solicit for a positive reason and then not follow up with a more official flavor text line. The art tease posted does seem more Secret Origins than Annual but again some more teases would be nice. Its gonna be a slow two weeks for DC so the team might as well get people hyped for some great Grayson issues.

----------


## brucekent12

Agreed! Hopefully we will get something tomorrow.

----------


## oasis1313

Nada so far.  Sigh.  Not enough Dick.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> The writing team should really put out a new flavor text/solicit for the Annual.  The old solicit and cover had me hyped for some Helena B. history/backstory/motivation type stuff. But between the comments about the change in focus and the interior art shown I'm not sure what this issue is going to be about.


Well, it looks like we're still getting some Helena, so the solicit text isn't wrong. Maybe it was a longer story split into two parts, or something.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well, it looks like we're still getting some Helena, so the solicit text isn't wrong. Maybe it was a longer story split into two parts, or something.


King has said that the solicit text was for another story, which they have moved elsewhere.  The text may fit okay with the annual they are actually doing, but it was not intended for it.

----------


## oasis1313

I wish Dick was in more than one book a month.  It's just not enough.  Hey, DC--my pockets are very deep when it comes to Grayson and I'd LOVE to give you more money.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

There's always Earth 2
.
.
.
.
(just kidding. don't get World's End)

----------


## oasis1313

> There's always Earth 2
> .
> (just kidding. don't get World's End)


THAT bad, huh?

----------


## M L A

> THAT bad, huh?


Even worse.

They gave Dick and Babs a kid and they literally can't even remember his name.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Actually, I'm pretty sure his hair even changed color within a single issue.

----------


## OversizedLoad

So a double-dose of Dick today, followed by a three week break. A nice facsimile of a TV show winter break.

----------


## oasis1313

> Even worse.
> 
> They gave Dick and Babs a kid and they literally can't even remember his name.


Dick Junior.

----------


## Dzetoun

> So a double-dose of Dick today, followed by a three week break. A nice facsimile of a TV show winter break.


Two weeks, I believe.  Unless something's changed, the next GRAYSON comes out January 6.

----------


## brucekent12

I'm going to pass on the Secret Origin story, but the Annual sounds good regardless of the story we get, can't wait to get to the store later today!

----------


## M L A

> Dick Junior.


I wish lol
They can't decide on Johnny or Tommy.
I say go with both and name him John Thomas. That way you're naming him after his father too. :P

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

They should have named him Damian.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Secret Origins #8:
*spoilers:*
Well, Seeley just re-canonized Dick's Teen Titans. And even the Discowing suit. It's almost like one big middle finger to the 5 year timeline. Dick's been a busy boy.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Two weeks, I believe.  Unless something's changed, the next GRAYSON comes out January 6.


Check it:
http://www.previewsworld.com/Home/1/...emID=NOV140255

----------


## Vinsanity

> Secret Origins #8:
> *spoilers:*
> Well, Seeley just re-canonized Dick's Teen Titans. And even the Discowing suit. It's almost like one big middle finger to the 5 year timeline. Dick's been a busy boy.
> *end of spoilers*


We always knew that it was a group but they didn't have an official name or sorts. It was in Red Hood after DOTF

----------


## oasis1313

I think we need a Grayson Spy action figure.  I might have to make a custom if we don't get one soon.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Check it:
> http://www.previewsworld.com/Home/1/...emID=NOV140255


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56446

Solicits say Jan 7, so I dunno

----------


## tako

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56446
> 
> Solicits say Jan 7, so I dunno


The book got delayed. It happens.

----------


## oasis1313

We just need a second Grayson-associated title so bad.  Maybe give him a team to lead, with other more covert characters (whoever they might be).  Four weeks is too long to have to wait.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I liked Dick's Robin cameo in the Batman Annual.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> We just need a second Grayson-associated title so bad.  Maybe give him a team to lead, with other more covert characters (whoever they might be).  Four weeks is too long to have to wait.


I honestly disagree. Multiple titled qith the same character to me is pointless. And a team could, happen in this book. One book flashes out characters well. Multiple books have different interpretations and it isn't the same. Heck I want batman to do the same though I know that will never happen lol

----------


## tako

> I honestly disagree. Multiple titled qith the same character to me is pointless. And a team could, happen in this book. One book flashes out characters well. Multiple books have different interpretations and it isn't the same. Heck I want batman to do the same though I know that will never happen lol


A second book, also written by King and Seeley.

----------


## oasis1313

> A second book, also written by King and Seely.


THIS is how to do it.

----------


## Godlike13

Though why not just double ship Grayson then.

----------


## tako

> Though why not just double ship Grayson then.


Because you'd have to alternate between Mooney and Janin art.

----------


## Badou

> I honestly disagree. Multiple titled qith the same character to me is pointless. And a team could, happen in this book. One book flashes out characters well. Multiple books have different interpretations and it isn't the same. Heck I want batman to do the same though I know that will never happen lol


Just keeps what happens in Grayson separate. Just let them tell their own stories without worrying what other people do with his character in their book. He desperately needs to be integrated back into the DCU again instead of just scumming it around the fringes/being irrelevant like he has for the last 3 years. His character has eroded substantially since the reboot and is finally getting a little traction with Grayson and you need to build off that. Don't take a step forward then just coast for another 3 years. You need other writers to actually build on what is happening in Grayson so it can have some staying power. Otherwise it is just going to be like the vast majority of the Nightwing runs where everything gets ignored/dumped when one team leaves and we are starting from square one again. I mean we just had that happen in Higgins run.

----------


## WonderNight

Well ifbthe goal is to make dick in to an a-list character and dick needs a second to interact with the larger dcu then its time for grayson to join the justice league and stand beside the like of superman batman wonder woman in the big leagues. If grayson is too truly be a-list then no more not being in big events like darkseid war and no more b- teams. Plus I want a grayson/wonder woman worlds finest please

----------


## Vinsanity

> We just need a second Grayson-associated title so bad.  Maybe give him a team to lead, with other more covert characters (whoever they might be).  Four weeks is too long to have to wait.


Disagree. One book is perfect for him.

----------


## Badou

He's been in one book since the start of the reboot. It has been anything but perfect for him.

----------


## berserkerclaw

But why should he need multiple books though. One book is perfect because it's dicks story.  I'm sorry but multiple, solo books for any, character is to much. If I was in control I would cancel detective and B & R. Just keeping Batman as the only brie book. I'd have grayson in one, cat women and so forth. Grayson plot eight now is as an agent of spyral. More then one book would serve no purpose. And if you are thinking team. We'll grayson could be that, if he, worked with more then just Helena. I'd have it 9 no other way

----------


## Dzetoun

> But why should he need multiple books though. One book is perfect because it's dicks story.  I'm sorry but multiple, solo books for any, character is to much. If I was in control I would cancel detective and B & R. Just keeping Batman as the only brie book. I'd have grayson in one, cat women and so forth. Grayson plot eight now is as an agent of spyral. More then one book would serve no purpose. And if you are thinking team. We'll grayson could be that, if he, worked with more then just Helena. I'd have it 9 no other way


I think the answer lies in the repeated message that the current creative team wants to elevate Dick to A-list status.  A-list heroes appear in multiple books; it's a requirement to be considered at the top level.  It may not make artistic sense, but we are talking economic value and social status.  So, Dick Grayson will never be considered first tier as long as he only has one title in which he appears regularly as a major player.

----------


## BaneBreaker

Christmas gift I received, Nightwing ArtFx+ statue

----------


## brucekent12

> I think the answer lies in the repeated message that the current creative team wants to elevate Dick to A-list status.  A-list heroes appear in multiple books; it's a requirement to be considered at the top level.  It may not make artistic sense, but we are talking economic value and social status.  So, Dick Grayson will never be considered first tier as long as he only has one title in which he appears regularly as a major player.


I'm a big Dick Grayson fan, and would love to see him in another book that could resemble the Titans, o maybe a monthly teamup  of the 4 Robins, but wouldn't that be impossible with Dick having been outed in Forever Evil? I'm sure a good writer could clear that up in a Gotham minute, butmunless he became a new vigilante I don't see that happening.

----------


## oasis1313

> Christmas gift I received, Nightwing ArtFx+ statue


Gorgeous sculpt--I got it in the blue variant, as well as the red.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> I think the answer lies in the repeated message that the current creative team wants to elevate Dick to A-list status.  A-list heroes appear in multiple books; it's a requirement to be considered at the top level.  It may not make artistic sense, but we are talking economic value and social status.  So, Dick Grayson will never be considered first tier as long as he only has one title in which he appears regularly as a major player.


Yeah I get that lol. Just not what id like. But if they elevated him I'm cool with that.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah I get that lol. Just not what id like. But if they elevated him I'm cool with that.


In my humble opinion, the ONLY way to make Dick Grayson an A-List character is to make him a member of the Justice League.  And I don't buy the BS that if Batman is on the League, then Dick/Nightwing/Dickbats can't be on it, too.  If you're fighting some big fat enemy, you need all the help you can get.  If this is carved in stone, then I would have Brucebats decide he can't leave Gotham City for one split-second or that he can't get along with anybody, and Dickbats would be on the League.

----------


## tako

earlier in Justice League, Nightwing refused to be part of the JL pool for new recruits. 
But, he also guest starred in Batwing, which featured the JLI at the time.

----------


## oasis1313

> earlier in Justice League, Nightwing refused to be part of the JL pool for new recruits. 
> But, he also guest starred in Batwing, which featured the JLI at the time.


Dick Grayson/Nightwing is not in the Justice League because DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) does not want him to be there.  He will never be an A-List character unless DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) ALLOWS it to happen.

----------


## tako

Have writers pitched the idea of Dick Grayson in the Justice League?

----------


## oasis1313

> Have writers pitched the idea of Dick Grayson in the Justice League?


What's the point of pitching something you KNOW in advance will only be shot down?  It's like bashing your head against a brick wall.  All my boss wants to hear is out of me is, "Wow, Boss!  What a great idea you just had!"  Never mind that the idea is unworkable, not in the company's best interests, etc etc etc, if you want to keep your job, you agree with the boss and do your best to make whatever he/she wants to do actually happen.  If you are a writer and your boss is totally upfront about the fact that he hates a certain character, is it in your professional best interests to push a project that will have that character under your boss's nose even more than he already is?  I'm not saying this to be negative--but I've been around a long time and this is how the workplace is run.

----------


## tako

> What's the point of pitching something you KNOW in advance will only be shot down?  It's like bashing your head against a brick wall.  All my boss wants to hear is out of me is, "Wow, Boss!  What a great idea you just had!"  Never mind that the idea is unworkable, not in the company's best interests, etc etc etc, if you want to keep your job, you agree with the boss and do your best to make whatever he/she wants to do actually happen.  If you are a writer and your boss is totally upfront about the fact that he hates a certain character, is it in your professional best interests to push a project that will have that character under your boss's nose even more than he already is?  I'm not saying this to be negative--but I've been around a long time and this is how the workplace is run.


Well...see, that's nonsense. A writer's job is to pitch things, to write, to create new ideas. Even if they're shot down.

----------


## M L A

> Dick Grayson/Nightwing is not in the Justice League because DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) does not want him to be there.  He will never be an A-List character unless DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) ALLOWS it to happen.


Didio isn't EIC anymore lmao

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well...see, that's nonsense. A writer's job is to pitch things, to write, to create new ideas. Even if they're shot down.


Oasis has a valid point.  Just recently John Layman was discussing it on Twitter, saying that writers learn very quickly that some pitches are quite simply a waste of time, and therefore they don't make them.  As I recall, he said he has long wanted to write Plastic Man, a character that fits his penchant for the off beat and comical.  However, Plastic Man "belongs" to a more senior writer, who doesn't use the character but also doesn't share his toys.  So, until there is some kind of realignment, it just isn't worth Layman's time to put a pitch together when it is sure to be rejected out of hand.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

A better ending to Robin Rises: http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10628...related-post-x

----------


## Dzetoun

> A better ending to Robin Rises: http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10628...related-post-x


Yes, that is a better ending, all right.

----------


## brucekent12

That's funny. Thank you Fuzzy Cactus!

----------


## Godlike13

> Have writers pitched the idea of Dick Grayson in the Justice League?


Obsidian Age, and it was awesome  :Cool: . 

Regardless putting a character on the JL doesn't elevate a character to A-list. I know people want that for a notch on his belt, but unless its something like Obsidian Age, i just don't see how Dick on the JL works. Plus quite frankly in this day and age the way u elevate a character to A-list is with other media.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Dick Grayson/Nightwing is not in the Justice League because DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) does not want him to be there.  He will never be an A-List character unless DC Editorial (aka You Know Who) ALLOWS it to happen.


You can't have NW/Dick Grayson in the Justice League unless you get rid of Batman/Bruce Wayne in some sort of way. Otherwise you'll get Batman and Batman lite.

----------


## tako

> Obsidian Age, and it was awesome . 
> 
> Regardless putting a character on the JL doesn't elevate a character to A-list. I know people want that for a notch on his belt, but unless its something like Obsidian Age, i just don't see how Dick on the JL works. Plus quite frankly in this day and age the way u elevate a character to A-list is with other media.


Well, sure. Obsidian Age made sense. Dick in the JL works - it worked when he was Batman - it'd just be a bit weird to have both Batman and Nightwing on the same team at the same time.

Dick, as a character, can surely fit in the league but he wouldn't work as a normal member in the New 52. He'd have to be the leader, and he can surely lead a Justice League caliber team - but it has to be right given the story. Batman can't be involved. The League has to come to Dick.  If Batman were to pull an Outsiders again, that'd be perfect.

He worked great as a member/leader of the Teen/Titans because he was among a group of friends, peers - and it worked pre-New 52 when the DCU's heroes were more of a family - everybody knew him.

----------


## M L A

> Obsidian Age, and it was awesome . 
> 
> Regardless putting a character on the JL doesn't elevate a character to A-list. I know people want that for a notch on his belt, but unless its something like Obsidian Age, i just don't see how Dick on the JL works. Plus quite frankly in this day and age the way u elevate a character to A-list is with other media.


Yeah I fail to see how putting him in the JL in comics will help him be "A-list". Pretty sure most people who read comics have at least heard of him before and knows he's one of those bat-characters.
Also fail to see what he'd provide on the team since his typical "Batman role" he plays on teams is taken by Batman and it can't be more comedic relief unless you want him to have a threesome with Flash and GL.

What will make characters more A-list is being a movie that doesn't suck, being on a cartoon that doesn't suck and has a long life, and being on a show that doesn't suck. And you have to have a pretty significant role in those too or else they'll be forgotten.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Well, as an agent with Spyral's resources at his fingertips, he can contribute in a way that Batman can't.

----------


## WonderNight

If dick was in the justice league he would get the outside media he would need. Look at cyborg he's in every thing plus dick already has the fanbase anf history to be a-list.that's why he needs a cyborg push. That's I don't get why people want him to be in a robins or titans or outsiders book? How's that taking grayson to the next level? Justice league is the next level for grayson.

----------


## Csjbo08

In terms of A-List status, there are only a few superhero monikers in the DCU that I would consider to be A-Listers without question, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash and Robin.  With Bruce Wayne, Kal-El and Diana Prince being the civilian names that are itself highly recognizable, and Hal Jordan, Barry Allen and Dick Grayson being names that might not instantly pop into the heads of non-comicbook readers but with a little nudge, they can connect each character to their iconic alter-ego.  The reason why I put this is because while he might not feel like it, Dick Grayson really isn't that far off from being an A-Lister if not already, he has one of the larger fanbases in the comic book community built over decades to the point where his titles outsell many other more famous characters, he's pretty well known with the casual audience because of the 60's Batman series (which people still remember or discover for themselves) and Schumaker Batman film and over the past decade, only Batman has had more exposure in animation than Dick Grayson.  

I don't think the problem with Dick Grayson right now is his status amongst the general populace but rather his status in the current DCU continuity and that is something that for a character of his stature should be worked on. He could work in the Justice League as I do think that with his new abilities (hypnos) and potential influence in the espionage world, he can contribute and not feel redundant because of Batman's presence, it's definitely something he couldn't have done as Nightwing.  I don't think he necessarily has to be on the team to carve a large presence in the DCU, however I do think he needs to have a consistent presence in that title.  The question is whether DC editorial will have the motivation to do so, and I think that they eventually will, it's important to remember that the new 52 is still pretty young and considering how long the last continuity lasted, we have to keep things into perspective and be patient.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well...see, that's nonsense. A writer's job is to pitch things, to write, to create new ideas. Even if they're shot down.


Nonsense?  Remember this conversation the rest of your life--because someday it WILL come back to haunt you.  Unless you have a giant trust fund and never have to work for anyone.  Any employee--or prospective employee (like a writer trying to pitch a project; that is, to "sing for his supper") has one job and one job only:  To make his/her boss happy.  Sometimes that involves performing magnificently at all tasks, sometimes it just means SUCKING UP to the right person.  When you've been in the working world long enough, you learn the difference.  Yeah, it's cynical and jaded, but honestly, no insult is intended here--just my observations from over 50 years of living in the working world.

----------


## tako

> Nonsense?  Remember this conversation the rest of your life--because someday it WILL come back to haunt you.  Unless you have a giant trust fund and never have to work for anyone.  Any employee--or prospective employee (like a writer trying to pitch a project; that is, to "sing for his supper") has one job and one job only:  To make his/her boss happy.  Sometimes that involves performing magnificently at all tasks, sometimes it just means SUCKING UP to the right person.  When you've been in the working world long enough, you learn the difference.  Yeah, it's cynical and jaded, but honestly, no insult is intended here--just my observations from over 50 years of living in the working world.


so, what you're saying is keep doing the same thing forever and never change anything because your supervisor doesn't want to change it.

no.

that's not how life works. that's not how comics work.

----------


## Dzetoun

> so, what you're saying is keep doing the same thing forever and never change anything because your supervisor doesn't want to change it.
> 
> no.
> 
> that's not how life works. that's not how comics work.


I understand where you are coming from, I really do.  But if, for instance, Cunningham were to tell a writer "The Justice League Office has no interest in using Dick Grayson on any of our teams and we don't want to hear another word about it," what is that writer, realistically, supposed to do?

----------


## tako

> I understand where you are coming from, I really do.  But if, for instance, Cunningham were to tell a writer "The Justice League Office has no interest in using Dick Grayson on any of our teams and we don't want to hear another word about it," what is that writer, realistically, supposed to do?


You keep writing - whether the pitch is used or not - you do what you do best (as a writer, that's writing stories). You save it for when the time is right. You pitch it to different offices - pitch it to the Batoffice, pitch it to the publishers, to other editors, even to other writers, there's always somebody who is listening, looking for a new perspective, a new idea. Writers often get calls from the higher-ups, like Dan DiDio, asking "Hey, do you have any ideas?", and if you've managed to think up some great unused ideas in the past...there you go.

----------


## Badou

Yes, Dick joining the Justice League proper is the quickest way to get him to A-list, but that isn't going to happen. As long as Batman is still there then Dick won't be part of the team. That is just how it is. Johns pretty much established that when he used Dick in that one JL issue where Dick clearly didn't want to be there and acted like an ass. It might not make sense, since you'd think he'd like to help as many people as he can and enjoy the spotlight the JL would provide him (going back to his performer roots), and of course without the Titans he doesn't have another team that he feels attached to and doesn't want to leave the for the JL, but he won't join the JL regardless of all that. 

Unfortunately Johns views the character as the "leader" of the second generation heroes even though he has had basically zero interaction with any of them and is only two years younger than Cyborg and Wonder Woman. With how things are structured now in the reboot I think Johns' view of the character is wrong. It doesn't work. I don't care if Dick joins the JL or not but he should be viewed as a first generation hero and the fact that he isn't is probably the character's biggest obstacle. Because people like Johns doesn't look at the character as a first gen hero he doesn't put him in the same class as a Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Constantine, but because there isn't much history in the reboot he is pushed back down to Tim's generation. It's just a mess. 

So I think he should be pushed up to a first generation hero, but even though he won't be on the main JL title he needs to be on a JL-like title to help get him there. Like tako said a Justice League Outsiders book would probably be best. The main thing though is that the book can't just be filled with former Titans' characters. If they want to elevate his status then they need to show him leading characters you'd normally associate with Batman or Superman. So characters like Green Arrow, Zatanna, Plastic Man, and so on should be on his team otherwise he is just doing what Tim or Jason are doing now. 




> A better ending to Robin Rises: http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10628...related-post-x


That is amazing. Just perfect. xD

----------


## WonderNight

> Yes, Dick joining the Justice League proper is the quickest way to get him to A-list, but that isn't going to happen. As long as Batman is still there then Dick won't be part of the team. That is just how it is. Johns pretty much established that when he used Dick in that one JL issue where Dick clearly didn't want to be there and acted like an ass. It might not make sense, since you'd think he'd like to help as many people as he can and enjoy the spotlight the JL would provide him (going back to his performer roots), and of course without the Titans he doesn't have another team that he feels attached to and doesn't want to leave the for the JL, but he won't join the JL regardless of all that. 
> 
> Unfortunately Johns views the character as the "leader" of the second generation heroes even though he has had basically zero interaction with any of them and is only two years younger than Cyborg and Wonder Woman. With how things are structured now in the reboot I think Johns' view of the character is wrong. It doesn't work. I don't care if Dick joins the JL or not but he should be viewed as a first generation hero and the fact that he isn't is probably the character's biggest obstacle. Because people like Johns doesn't look at the character as a first gen hero he doesn't put him in the same class as a Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Constantine, but because there isn't much history in the reboot he is pushed back down to Tim's generation. It's just a mess. 
> 
> So I think he should be pushed up to a first generation hero, but even though he won't be on the main JL title he needs to be on a JL-like title to help get him there. Like tako said a Justice League Outsiders book would probably be best. The main thing though is that the book can't just be filled with former Titans' characters. If they want to elevate his status then they need to show him leading characters you'd normally associate with Batman or Superman. So characters like Green Arrow, Zatanna, Plastic Man, and so on should be on his team otherwise he is just doing what Tim or Jason are doing now. 
> 
> 
> 
> That is amazing. Just perfect. xD


Yeah I agree 100% but why can't grayson and batman be in the league together at the same time? That would show them as equals more than anything and it would be dc's way of giving us the original dynamic duo again

----------


## Dzetoun

> Yeah I agree 100% but why can't grayson and batman be in the league together at the same time? That would show them as equals more than anything and it would be dc's way of giving us the original dynamic duo again


The problem is that reduces the rest of the Justice League to supporting cast in their own book, unless you shove either Dick or Bruce so far into the background that he might as well not be there.  The Batman Office probably wouldn't have a problem using the League in that way, but the Justice League Office definitely would.

I agree that the best bet is either a separate team or a Justice League spin-off.  But what would you call the new team?  Unfortunately, Lemire has taken the Outsiders for Green Arrow.

----------


## jules

> I agree that the best bet is either a separate team or a Justice League spin-off.  But what would you call the new team?  Unfortunately, Lemire has taken the Outsiders for Green Arrow.


Justice League International. The title's going spare at the moment, and Dick _is_ the member of the Bat-family who's currently working outside Gotham and picking up new global acquaintances.

----------


## oasis1313

> Justice League International. The title's going spare at the moment, and Dick _is_ the member of the Bat-family who's currently working outside Gotham and picking up new global acquaintances.


Something like this sounds good.  The Legion of Super-Heroes used to have its Espionage Squad--why couldn't the League?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Something like this sounds good.  The Legion of Super-Heroes used to have its Espionage Squad--why couldn't the League?


No reason, but Justice League Espionage is kind of an awkward title. So is Justice League Covert or Justice League Secret.  And the other adjectives usually used for spies and secrets like "black," "shadow," and "dark," refer to magic in the DCU.  Jules may be right that Justice League International would be the best play.

----------


## Csjbo08

In terms of teams that are not named Justice League, right now, he is interacting with a key member of a team that in Prime-Earth continuity is a spy organization and has been protecting the Earth for hundreds of years.   I haven't read a lot of _Stormwatch_ so I'm not 100% about how Dick Grayson would fit into that team but it's out there in _Grayson_ and I don't think DC Editorial would have much of a problem with it, they have to do something with the property.

----------


## Godlike13

The only way i could think of that Grayson would work on the JL is if he was a secret member, and acted as the scout.

----------


## Dzetoun

> In terms of teams that are not named Justice League, right now, he is interacting with a key member of a team that in Prime-Earth continuity is a spy organization and has been protecting the Earth for hundreds of years.   I haven't read a lot of _Stormwatch_ so I'm not 100% about how Dick Grayson would fit into that team but it's out there in _Grayson_ and I don't think DC Editorial would have much of a problem with it, they have to do something with the property.


That is an excellent point.  Dick Grayson would not fit in with the Stormwatch of the Jim Lee/Warren Ellis era, but the New 52 version is different.  Historically, the team sometimes included a figure called the Weatherman who served as a link to the international intelligence community, so there is some mild precedent.  Also, like you say, the team really has no home at the moment, although they did show up in _Futures End_ more-or-less as sacrificial lambs.

----------


## Claude

Nightwing and Batman can't be on the League at the same time, due to redundancy. Grayson Of Spyral and Batman, on the other hand? Don't see why not!

Although I'd rather he head to Stormwatch and try and make me interested in the title.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

A Grayson book with a secondary book featuring him as a team member of Stormwatch would be great

----------


## dropkickjake

While I would mind seeing Dick Grayson Super Spy in the Justice League, I'd rather see him on a team he could potentially be seen as the leader. But I agree it couldn't be made of entirely 2nd Generation characters. 

I'm gonna be a broken record here, but ride the popularity of Gaurdians of the Galaxy and make a space opera title "Justice League: Galactic" would work nicely. Put Dick Grayson, Martian Manhunter, Ted Kord, Booster Gold, Super Girl, and a green lantern. Give it press, put a good creative team on it.

----------


## tako

> While I would mind seeing Dick Grayson Super Spy in the Justice League, I'd rather see him on a team he could potentially be seen as the leader. But I agree it couldn't be made of entirely 2nd Generation characters. 
> 
> I'm gonna be a broken record here, but ride the popularity of Gaurdians of the Galaxy and make a space opera title "Justice League: Galactic" would work nicely. Put Dick Grayson, Martian Manhunter, Ted Kord, Booster Gold, Super Girl, and a green lantern. Give it press, put a good creative team on it.


Justice League United?

----------


## dropkickjake

> Justice League United?


Admittedly, I haven't paid to much attention to the Justice league line since forever evil. Is that what jlu is?

----------


## Csjbo08

> Admittedly, I haven't paid to much attention to the Justice league line since forever evil. Is that what jlu is?


Tako beat me to it because JLU is pretty much what you described, it even has some of the characters mentioned like Martian Manhunter and Supergirl.  It's actually a pretty fun title and since its conception I've been clamoring for Starfire to join JLU instead of being trapped in RHATO.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Tako beat me to it because JLU is pretty much what you described, it even has some of the characters mentioned like Martian Manhunter and Supergirl.  It's actually a pretty fun title and since its conception I've been clamoring for Starfire to join JLU instead of being trapped in RHATO.


Dangit. I really want Dick to be on such a title. That said, perhaps I'll check jlu out then.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

First they must resolve this death business before any JL stuff happens

----------


## SpiderWing20

Dick would be great on a covert team along the lines of the team from Young Justice. Dealing with things such as stolen Apokolips tech or retrieving a certain villain before they can cause damage.

----------


## Claude

> I think the answer lies in the repeated message that the current creative team wants to elevate Dick to A-list status.  A-list heroes appear in multiple books; it's a requirement to be considered at the top level.  It may not make artistic sense, but we are talking economic value and social status.  So, Dick Grayson will never be considered first tier as long as he only has one title in which he appears regularly as a major player.


It's cheating a little, but.... Hal Jordan has been only in one book for most of the New 52, and Green Lantern is still regarded as A-List. Flash, too, is pretty limited to his own title with the occasional Justice League role. I think multiples titles is a good indicator of Status, but not a _requirement_ as such.

It's perfectly possible for Dick to become A List purely through a successful "Grayson", although that's perhaps an unlikely level of success. Plonking him in a title that sinks, or doing what we might call a "Cyborg" on him and making him a Justice League Wallflower would probably do more harm than good.

I like the idea of him on Justice League United, but that's very much a Characters Lemire Likes indulgence of a title - fun though it is - and wouldn't be what you might call a fast-track to success.




> I agree that the best bet is either a separate team or a Justice League spin-off.  But what would you call the new team?  Unfortunately, Lemire has taken the Outsiders for Green Arrow.


Give him Time Displaced Wally West or Simon Baz, or both, and give them a team-up book. Play up the "misunderstood by the authorities" bit that Wally and Simon have dabbled with in the past, and have Dick as the "cool Man From The Agency" who's the only one who believes their story. Hijinks ensue.

----------


## Godlike13

Could be cool to put him on a team and have the team just be able to see his spiraled out face.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> While I would mind seeing Dick Grayson Super Spy in the Justice League, I'd rather see him on a team he could potentially be seen as the leader. But I agree it couldn't be made of entirely 2nd Generation characters. 
> 
> I'm gonna be a broken record here, but ride the popularity of Gaurdians of the Galaxy and make a space opera title "Justice League: Galactic" would work nicely. Put Dick Grayson, Martian Manhunter, Ted Kord, Booster Gold, Super Girl, and a green lantern. Give it press, put a good creative team on it.


If it brings back Supergirl's crush diary, then sure.

----------


## Vinsanity

Rather not see him in a team for a very, very, very, very long time. Build him up in his own solos then put him in a team.

----------


## OWL45

> Rather not see him in a team for a very, very, very, very long time. Build him up in his own solos then put him in a team.


I agree with you. As it is showing in the Annual he is slowly getting better at spy craft. They should continue to build him up for awhile so that when he finally is on a team or really resurfaces to the larger collective he will be far more skilled and stronger as a character.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I agree with you. As it is showing in the Annual he is slowly getting better at spy craft. They should continue to build him up for awhile so that when he finally is on a team or really resurfaces to the larger collective he will be far more skilled and stronger as a character.


He has been isolated too long as it is.  Character development can continue in _Grayson_, as it does in everyone's solo titles.  But it is past time to explore the other attributes that have made him popular over the years, many of them related to his interpersonal and team leadership skills.

----------


## oasis1313

> First they must resolve this death business before any JL stuff happens


Exactly.  And they don't want to deal with it, so they'll keep pretending that Dick Grayson was never a part of the Bat-Verse.  But I agree that Dick must be the leader of any team book he's on.  The "Young Justice" title isn't being used, and I like "Justice League International", too.

----------


## Csjbo08

> He has been isolated too long as it is.  Character development can continue in _Grayson_, as it does in everyone's solo titles.  But it is past time to explore the other attributes that have made him popular over the years, many of them related to his interpersonal and team leadership skills.


Not just that but from a business perspective, why not?  Dick Grayson has shown that as a character, he can sell well to the point of outselling other "A-List" heroes such as Flash and Wonder Woman.  His presence in an established-team book can give it a boost in sales, or at least keep the numbers from falling as they would have without his inclusion.  If DC wants to kick the tires and have Dick Grayson either lead or take part in a new team book, as long as it's not the worst thing ever, it should average over 20,000 units when sales stabilize, which would make DC happy.  With a universe that is vast and for the most part untapped in the new 52, there really is no reason not to put him in a team book along with _Grayson_.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not just that but from a business perspective, why not?  Dick Grayson has shown that as a character, he can sell well to the point of outselling other "A-List" heroes such as Flash and Wonder Woman.  His presence in an established-team book can give it a boost in sales, or at least keep the numbers from falling as they would have without his inclusion.  If DC wants to kick the tires and have Dick Grayson either lead or take part in a new team book, as long as it's not the worst thing ever, it should average over 20,000 units when sales stabilize, which would make DC happy.  With a universe that is vast and for the most part untapped in the new 52, there really is no reason not to put him in a team book along with _Grayson_.


I'm not convinced that selling comic books is what makes DC happy.  I think annoying me is what makes them happy (LOL).

----------


## OWL45

> He has been isolated too long as it is.  Character development can continue in _Grayson_, as it does in everyone's solo titles.  But it is past time to explore the other attributes that have made him popular over the years, many of them related to his interpersonal and team leadership skills.


I guess my fear is that if the wrong writer or team gets their hands on him in a team book he will go back to being used as a punching bag or getting dogged to highlight some other character they are trying to push. Grayson is the first time in years that hasn't happened yet. I wouldn't mind an Outsider book with him as the leader to be honest.

----------


## oasis1313

> I guess my fear is that if the wrong writer or team gets their hands on him in a team book he will go back to being used as a punching bag or getting dogged to highlight some other character they are trying to push. Grayson is the first time in years that hasn't happened yet. I wouldn't mind an Outsider book with him as the leader to be honest.


I'd be okay with Dick leading an Outsiders book.  But it would need to be made ABSOLUTELY PLAIN to the writers that Grayson is the STAR of the book and the other characters are just there to make him look good.

----------


## jules

> I guess my fear is that if the wrong writer or team gets their hands on him in a team book he will go back to being used as a punching bag or getting dogged to highlight some other character they are trying to push. Grayson is the first time in years that hasn't happened yet.


So what he really needs is a team book written by either Tom King or Tim Seeley. I think we could trust them to value him highly enough.  :Smile:  

Just as long as that doesn't mean either of them leaving Grayson to do it, because I think the co-plotting mix of their different approaches and influences, and the natural urge to compete with each other when it comes to scripting is at least part of what has made the book so good. I'm sure eventually one or both _will_ move on, but I'd like to delay that day as long as possible.

At some point the Minos/Paragon investigation will be complete. (Maybe even by the break for Convergence?) Depending on who's running things after that it might be a lot easier for Dick to take time out to visit Gotham or join a team. I don't know if they can get him back into a costume without dealing with the whole Forever Evil mess, but certainly he could become more straightforwardly either a (non-evil) Spyral agent or remain undercover with allies to run interference for him (such as Helena, who's halfway to doing that now). At that point it definitely becomes a lot easier for him to appear in multiple books.

I almost expect him to appear in Eternal 2 anyway, since that'll need a new plot and a reshuffle of the cast.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'd be okay with Dick leading an Outsiders book.  But it would need to be made ABSOLUTELY PLAIN to the writers that Grayson is the STAR of the book and the other characters are just there to make him look good.


Then other fans of other characters would be annoyed. If I'm a fan of let's say Supergirl and she gets put in the background because the writers focused on Grayson a lot, I would be annoyed. Grayson at the moment, he is not ready for a team book. The teams are perfect right now.

I don't want a team just so I can see more Dick Grayson. I want to see a team that has a reason to be together or has a point.

----------


## SpiderWing20

If we're talking about a second to show off Dic and have him interact with the DcU how about a team up book like Brave and The Bold or Avenging/Superior team up. That way we can see Dick build and rebuild relationships while raising his status and who knows maybe the seeds of an actual team could be planted in the title

----------


## Dzetoun

> If we're talking about a second to show off Dic and have him interact with the DcU how about a team up book like Brave and The Bold or Avenging/Superior team up. That way we can see Dick build and rebuild relationships while raising his status and who knows maybe the seeds of an actual team could be planted in the title


That could theoretically work, as Tomasi proved with _Batman and..._.  However, I am not sure _Grayson_ is prominent enough to support a second title with a constantly rotating guest slot.  I am also not sure it would really be what many fans want.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I guess my fear is that if the wrong writer or team gets their hands on him in a team book he will go back to being used as a punching bag or getting dogged to highlight some other character they are trying to push. Grayson is the first time in years that hasn't happened yet. I wouldn't mind an Outsider book with him as the leader to be honest.


Your concerns are understandable.  However, as a matter of strategy, if the character is to realise his full potential he can't be limited to a particular creative team.  Take Jason Todd, for example.  It's true that Lobdell and Rocafort were at the heart of the character's resurgence.  But it has also depended, crucially, on such creators as Seeley, Pak, Tynion, and Tomasi.  Not all of them were helpful or successful, but the very fact of so many different people trying their hand broadened the character's base in important ways.

Also, from a business and even an artistic standpoint, it doesn't do to become too attached to creators.  The days of seven- and eight-year runs are long gone, and even a three- or four-year run is an exception to the rule.  The business is just too fluid, the market to opaque and fickle, the demands of a creative career too complicated.  So the current _Grayson_ team should be appreciated, but one has to accept that sooner or later, probably sooner, the inevitable will occur.  Having the character in multiple venues with multiple creators is an invaluable hedge against that day.

----------


## Cold Water

I just wanted to put this here:


I was gifted this trade the other day, and it was my first official Batman and Nightwing/Robin/Dick Grayson read.

And I loved it.
I was also gifted "The Target", and while the story was pretty decent, the art was NOT my thing at all.

----------


## Godlike13

> Your concerns are understandable.  However, as a matter of strategy, if the character is to realise his full potential he can't be limited to a particular creative team.  Take Jason Todd, for example.  It's true that Lobdell and Rocafort were at the heart of the character's resurgence.  But it has also depended, crucially, on such creators as Seeley, Pak, Tynion, and Tomasi.  Not all of them were helpful or successful, but the very fact of so many different people trying their hand broadened the character's base in important ways.


Eeh, thats maybe not the best example because Lobdell and Rocafort weren't at the heart of the character's resurgence, Judd Winick and UtRH, and the animated movie that followed, was. Too many hands in the pot, with no real commitment to the direction is kind of what messed things up and what landed Jason where his is. In a lingering book that should probably be canceled, and is a character that is just around. They still don't really know what to do with Jason, and so the character defaulted into becoming something safer and became more like Dick. A pseudo Nightwing with guns, that hangs around here and there. 

DC needs to truly commit to this direction if they want it to result in anything, or they run the risk of the character defaulting back to how things were with him, or even worse the character becoming a mess readers stop taking seriously. 
So they can't just put him into a team book for the sake of putting him on a team, not right now, it has to fit his current direction. There will come a time where having the character in more venues with multiple creators is the next step, but right now they need to firmly establish this new direction. So that when new creators come in there is enough groundwork there that they can continue and contribute to, taking it and him to new steps. Instead of ignoring it and doing their own thing, or regressing him back to something safer and more familiar.

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## Dzetoun

> Eeh, thats maybe not the best example because Lobdell and Rocafort weren't at the heart of the character's resurgence, Judd Winick and UtRH, and the animated movie that followed, was. Too many hands in the pot, with no real commitment to the direction is kind of what messed things up and what landed Jason where his is. In a lingering book that should probably be canceled, and is a character that is just around. They still don't really know what to do with Jason, and so the character defaulted into becoming something safer and became more like Dick. A pseudo Nightwing with guns, that hangs around here and there.


I don't know about that.  Winnick got things started, it's true.  But then the great quagmire came along.  It really wasn't until Lobdell and Rocafort that Jason finally got a stable direction.  Nevertheless, valid points.

----------


## Csjbo08

Not to get too off-topic, but in the case of Jason Todd, while Lobdell did give Jason a more consistent direction, I don't know if that lead to a resurgence for the character, the comic itself is too polarizing and doesn't get much attention except from its passionate fanbase.  I still think that the most important thing to happen to Jason Todd in terms of getting people to pay attention to him as Red Hood was the animated adaptation of _Under the Red Hood_.  

The collaboration of Geoff John and Ivan Reis on _Aquaman_ was a good example of how a creative team completely changed the perception of the character for the better, even if the negative stereotypes were frequently dismissed by knowledgeable readers.  Their work brought excitement and intrigue to an audience that previously wouldn't have given Aquaman the time of day.

----------


## brucekent12

I think a 4 Robins series would be fun to read at least IMHO. Dick and Tim have always gotten along well, as has Dick and Damian. Snarky Jason and Damian with his attitude could bring some laughs into the book, and they ould handle the cases Batman can't get to.How Dick would be in a costume, I hadn't figured out, but that's why the writers get paid the big bucks!

----------


## Dzetoun

> The collaboration of Geoff John and Ivan Reis on _Aquaman_ was a good example of how a creative team completely changed the perception of the character for the better, even if the negative stereotypes were frequently dismissed by knowledgeable readers.  Their work brought excitement and intrigue to an audience that previously wouldn't have given Aquaman the time of day.


That's a good point.  And while they were doing that, Aquaman branched out in both the _Justice League_, very successfully, and _Aquaman and the Others_, very unsuccessfully (although I guess the second was after Parker took over _Aquaman_).  And guest appearances here and there, of course.




> I think a 4 Robins series would be fun to read at least IMHO. Dick and Tim have always gotten along well, as has Dick and Damian. Snarky Jason and Damian with his attitude could bring some laughs into the book, and they ould handle the cases Batman can't get to.How Dick would be in a costume, I hadn't figured out, but that's why the writers get paid the big bucks!


Perhaps that is what _Eternal 2.0_ will feature.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> That's a good point.  And while they were doing that, Aquaman branched out in both the _Justice League_, very successfully, and _Aquaman and the Others_, very unsuccessfully (although I guess the second was after Parker took over _Aquaman_).  And guest appearances here and there, of course.


_Aquaman_ and _Justice League_ both written by Geoff Johns. And 'The Others' concept was also a Johns invention.  One creator setting up the world of a character and then expanding it, allowing for others to mine it later.  Sounds like the right way to build a character for sustained success.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That is why I think that they really missed the with Batman Inc., it should have been named Gotham Knights/The Knight/New Outsiders and not have gone public with Bruce Wayne revealing he has been funding Batman all these years. It should also not have had Bruce in charge but more in a Godfather Role with Dick running things since he is the better leader of the two. Spyral should have been what Batman Inc intended to be, a secret intelligence organization that at best you hear whispers about as that would have longer staying ability. Batman Inc. at no point was ever going to last over the long haul as it was just to much of a publicity stunt. Here is a sample of how I would handle the organization.

Batman in a Senior Leader like Alexander Pierce so he can do his own thing with Gotham/Justice League
Dick Grayson as the Director
Tim Drake as Deputy Director
Barbara Gordon as Director of Intelligence 
etc.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

Like many of the Batman family, I discovered him back in the late '60s on the Batman Filmation Saturday-morning program (I didn't see the Adam West show until it went into reruns during the Fall of 1969). Even had a Robin bendable figure at that same time, though it may have been my brother's instead (as preschoolers, we tended to share our toys - we became more territorial later on  :Smile: ). 

Do I like him better as Robin, Nightwing, or in his new role? It's hard to say. I like him equally well in all three positions. Still, due to my age, I always think of him first as the first, most popular, and greatest sidekick of them all.

----------


## Csjbo08

> I think a 4 Robins series would be fun to read at least IMHO. Dick and Tim have always gotten along well, as has Dick and Damian. Snarky Jason and Damian with his attitude could bring some laughs into the book, and they ould handle the cases Batman can't get to.How Dick would be in a costume, I hadn't figured out, but that's why the writers get paid the big bucks!


While it could have some fun moments, I'm not sure that series is really what Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian need at this moment.  Dick Grayson, I feel needs to play a larger, more expanded role in the DCU and to put him on a team with the rest of the Robins would be a lateral move at best and a backwards yank at worst, it would be a complete waste of time for the character because he won't grow as he would be in the same place as he was as Nightwing.  Forward, not backward for Dick Grayson. Jason Todd I've always felt read better when he's not with the Batfamily and _Batman Eternal_  has reinforced that idea.  Tim, I think needs a solo book more than anything as he's been in so many team scenarios in the new 52, his character never has received enough focus to the point where he actually feels unnecessary in the new 52.  Damian would be the only one that I think would benefit as he's one of the few members of the Batfamily that reads better when he's _with_ other members of the Batfamily.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, he needs to grow beyond just being stuck in the Batman line. A Robins book wouldn't really help his character much. I'd rather seem him lead and build up relationships with other heroes as it was such a big part of his character before. The Grayson book keep focus on him, a team book to grow his character in the DCU and his relationships with other heroes, and the other Bat books can deal with him and the Batman characters. 

Though I really don't get where all this concern is coming from. Since Dick has had a solo book he has been in multiple books all the way up until Flashpoint, which lead to a substantial regression of his character and history. The thing is it isn't like the team book he was in impacted his solo that much. They told their own stories separate from each other. They can still do that. I mean it isn't like Batman's solo is impacted greatly by what he does in Justice League, what Green Arrow's solo and JLU, Supergirl's solo and JLU, Harley Quinn's solo and Suicide Squad, and so on. When he was Batman it isn't like what he did in JLA and Titans impacted him in Batman and Robin or Detective comics. 

The book Grayson reminds me most of is the recent Marvel Venom series. Grayson doesn't have as big a creative team as that book had when it launched, but it took a fairly popular character from a large franchise and tried to do something different with them. What Marvel did is that they allowed time for the character to to catch on in his solo, but they then started to feature the character in other books and teams (Thunderbolts and Guardians of the Galaxy), which allowed the character to grow and have staying power long after his solo came to an end. That is what Grayson needs and it is how you grow a concept. DC is going to launch a TON of new series next year and if Grayson isn't part of any of those then I do think his character will get swept away some in the flood of new titles. 

I mean at this point the earliest he can possibly be in a team book would be next Summer, but that will probably be their event stuff. So maybe next fall? So his solo book will have had plenty of time on it's own to do what it wants.

----------


## Rac7d*

tumblr_nh7mqtAJDH1qjx6zto1_1280.jpg
 i miss the ladies hollering at Dick

----------


## oasis1313

Hollering has been replaced by awestruck staring.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Scott Snyder
> ‏@Ssnyder1835
> @HackinTimSeeley Grayson's mantasticness has long moved beyond consideration, through fact, and into legend.


Well, then.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, then.


Where and when did this come from?  Grayson is still somewhere in Snyder's mind?

----------


## M L A

> Well, then.


scott snyder 2.jpg

He tried so hard and got so far. But in the end, it doesn't even matter.

At least Scott agrees that Dick surpasses Bruce in that.

----------


## bearman

Since Dick now spent more time growing up in the circus, he probably became adept at little cons and misdirection, knife throwing, becoming a card shark....
All helpful skills in an uncertain line of work.
Gerry

----------


## wickedmountain

> That could theoretically work, as Tomasi proved with _Batman and..._.  However, I am not sure _Grayson_ is prominent enough to support a second title with a constantly rotating guest slot.  I am also not sure it would really be what many fans want.


 For convergence he is going to have a Nightwing/Oracle book  :Smile:

----------


## K. Jones

> Since Dick now spent more time growing up in the circus, he probably became adept at little cons and misdirection, knife throwing, becoming a card shark....
> All helpful skills in an uncertain line of work.
> Gerry


He's not unlike The Joker in that regard, which Morrison intimated is the reason why Joker likes him so much. They sort of came at it from opposite angles - Dick started in the circus/performance and moved into serious street stuff (when he met Batman), Joker started in the streets and moved toward the circus/performance (when he met Batman!). That and calling him Boy Blunder.

I'm cool with Anglosphere accents being in his wheelhouse. It's about time one of the hyper-competencies in the Bat-clan was something that's actually you know, more or less realistic. Maybe an Irish accent was the specialty of master actor Alfred Beagle, or the one Dick picked up on the best, anyway.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> For convergence he is going to have a Nightwing/Oracle book


And a New Teen Titans book. And an Earth 2 Tec book.

----------


## wickedmountain

> And a New Teen Titans book. And an Earth 2 Tec book.


 cool ty for info  :Smile:

----------


## wickedmountain

> A better ending to Robin Rises: http://evinist.tumblr.com/post/10628...related-post-x


 lol That's funny

----------


## coffeelad

I know that Dick Grayson has a really large online fanbase, but I think the general comic book community doesn't really care for him that much.
In the past, he's regularly been outsold by other members of the Batfam, though his central role in Forever Evil + Grayson push have done wonders for him. I'm expecting the sales to eventually stabilize in the 30,000s though, if the writers don't do what they've promised and actually push him to A-list status.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's happening. For most of his publishing history, he's been too closely linked with Batman to really be his own hero, and his isolation in the Grayson series isn't really doing much for his status.
It would've been better if they actually made Nightwing's 'death' a bigger deal, because reading the post Forever Evil titles is just... no one cares.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

I agree. In order for him to gain status, the rest of the DCU has to remember that he exists/existed. As it stands his return will be a total non-event, not the dramatic return an A-list characters deserves.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

The only Bat related comics that outsold Grayson/Nightwing have featured Batman as the main draw with the exception of Barbara Gordon Batgirl/Oracle. The others don't have as large a following which is why Batwoman has been cancelled with Red Hood struggling to sell well and Tim Drake no longer having a solo to himself. I think Grayson is pretty respected but is always stuck in this under Batman's Shadow phase which has stunted his growth. Grayson is a good path for him as it is no longer a Batman Lite type of scenario for him, he is not a single city type of character. He is best when he can interact with many different people and places to avoid stagnation.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I know that Dick Grayson has a really large online fanbase, but I think the general comic book community doesn't really care for him that much.
> In the past, he's regularly been outsold by other members of the Batfam, though his central role in Forever Evil + Grayson push have done wonders for him. I'm expecting the sales to eventually stabilize in the 30,000s though, if the writers don't do what they've promised and actually push him to A-list status.
> Unfortunately, I don't think it's happening. For most of his publishing history, he's been too closely linked with Batman to really be his own hero, and his isolation in the Grayson series isn't really doing much for his status.
> It would've been better if they actually made Nightwing's 'death' a bigger deal, because reading the post Forever Evil titles is just... no one cares.


Lots of stuff here.  To go step by step:

1) Do you have numbers to back up the statement about other members of the Bat Family outselling Dick Grayson titles, by which I assume you mean _Nightwing_?  Certainly that was not usually the case in the New 52, and I don't believe it was from 1996-2009, either, although I am not as familiar with those numbers.  Now, in any given month another Bat Family title may have outsold _Nightwing_, but I don't think that was routine through most of that period.  Now, that's predicated on the idea that Bat Family titles are those titles that DO NOT star Batman himself, which is the way I think most people use the term.  

2) Where the _Grayson_ sales stabilize is just something we will have to see.

3) The isolation is a concern many people share.  It is one main reason many (maybe most?) are hoping that the whole "death" plot is resolved by _Convergence_.

4) Your concern about the "death" situation seems to be shared by the vast majority of people around here.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

DC just wont do a Return of Dick Grayson because they have no interest in giving his Character that kind of press, going back to the 90's I read there was a plan to have Nightwing marry Starfire before saving the world in front of DC's biggest heroes but that got scrapped and he had a solid run as a Batman-Lite with Bludhaven but that city was destroyed and he was nearly killed in Infinite Crises and then while he was mentioned to be an important piece in Forever Evil, they just made him a damsel in distress who once again has to be used as tool to show he is Batman son and daddy will always come to save him and forget everything else that is going so Lex Luthor can now be seen as a hero and gets to be on the Justice League along with Captain Cold. Forever Evil was big pile of hot trash.  They way Dick gets written in major events makes me wish that they just leave him out of them all together. Grayson is his best chance for A-List since he is no longer using a costumed as Robin(Batman Sidekick), Batman(only Bruce Wayne is Batman), or Nightwing ( Never going to get correct attention and derived from Superman). The Grayson series shows that he can sell well with a title using only his name.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I know that Dick Grayson has a really large online fanbase, but I think the general comic book community doesn't really care for him that much.
> In the past, he's regularly been outsold by other members of the Batfam, though his central role in Forever Evil + Grayson push have done wonders for him. I'm expecting the sales to eventually stabilize in the 30,000s though, if the writers don't do what they've promised and actually push him to A-list status.
> Unfortunately, I don't think it's happening. For most of his publishing history, he's been too closely linked with Batman to really be his own hero, and his isolation in the Grayson series isn't really doing much for his status.
> It would've been better if they actually made Nightwing's 'death' a bigger deal, because reading the post Forever Evil titles is just... no one cares.


Not really. Nightwing 29 sold more than anything bat related that didn't have Batman in the title and oversold, Superman, Action, Flash....

His role in Forever Evil didn't do anything good for the character if anything isolated him more. Being described a a damsel in distress is NOT GOOD for anyone. And nobody cares for Forever Evil in general.

He is linked to Batman because that is how the editorial likes it. The New Teen Titans sold like crazy and it had no link to Batman whatsoever, at that time Dick and Bruce varley interacted.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

The only Bat titles that regularly outsold Nightwing/Grayson are the ones that directly star Batman. Other than that, only Barbara Gordon's title will sometimes pull even with Dick's title.

----------


## Csjbo08

The only non-Batman Batfamily title that outsold Dick Grayson's solo in the new 52 was _Batgirl_ with the new creative team and that won't stay ahead of _Grayson_ for long.  In October it sold almost 10,000 more than _Grayson_, in November, around 2,500 units. 

The general comic book community does care for Dick Grayson and Geoff Johns took that into account when putting together _Forever Evil_, he needed to give readers a reason to care for an event that has going to be without most of the Justice League members, and Dick is arguably the highest profile DC hero not in the Justice League.

----------


## Cold Water

I cannot believe I posted such a pretty Dick picture, and no one even acknowledged it.  :Frown: 
*sigh*

(I will never be able to say that anywhere but here.  Awesome.)

----------


## WonderNight

> The only non-Batman Batfamily title that outsold Dick Grayson's solo in the new 52 was _Batgirl_ with the new creative team and that won't stay ahead of _Grayson_ for long.  In October it sold almost 10,000 more than _Grayson_, in November, around 2,500 units. 
> 
> The general comic book community does care for Dick Grayson and Geoff Johns took that into account when putting together _Forever Evil_, he needed to give readers a reason to care for an event that has going to be without most of the Justice League members, and Dick is arguably the highest profile DC hero not in the Justice League.


What character that is not in the justice league is bigger than dick grayson?

----------


## oasis1313

> What character that is not in the justice league is bigger than dick grayson?


Whatever DC wants to promote at the moment is bigger than Dick Grayson.  If they decide they want to relaunch Bwana Beast or Ambush Bug, then Bwana Beast or Ambush Bug will get far more TLC from DC than our boy Dick.

----------


## Csjbo08

> What character that is not in the justice league is bigger than dick grayson?


I can't think of one off the top of my head, as I've said earlier on this thread, I put him in the same class as Hal Jordan and Barry Allen, the most recognized bearer of an iconic superhero identity.  I just put the "arguably" because I didn't want someone to start throwing out names to try disprove my point and waste time.

----------


## oasis1313

> I cannot believe I posted such a pretty Dick picture, and no one even acknowledged it. 
> *sigh*


I didn't see it.  Repost, please?

----------


## Constantine

Can anyone recommend me an TPB with amazing Nightwing art with extra emphasis on his ass?

----------


## Cold Water

> I didn't see it.  Repost, please?


I will when I can get on a computer.
it is not a "hot" pic, or whatever, of Dick, it is just a nice scene. It is about 2 pages back if you wanna see it before I can repost.

----------


## Cold Water

> Can anyone recommend me an TPB with amazing Nightwing art with extra emphasis on his ass?


 That is quite the request.

----------


## Dzetoun

On the subject of Damian's failure to react to Dick's death, Patrick Gleason was asked today on Tumblr and had an unsurprising answer:

http://patrickgleason.tumblr.com/

----------


## oasis1313

> I cannot believe I posted such a pretty Dick picture, and no one even acknowledged it. 
> *sigh*)


I'm sorry I didn't see that; it's a beautiful piece of Perez art.  If you ever have the chance, get the black and white portfolio of those covers' prints; I believe that Perez inked his own pencils and the detail is astonishing.  Thanks so much for posting the eye candy!

----------


## oasis1313

> On the subject of Damian's failure to react to Dick's death, Patrick Gleason was asked today on Tumblr and had an unsurprising answer:
> 
> http://patrickgleason.tumblr.com/


Here is the "off-screen" version of it:

Damian:  Uh, Father . . . I've been meaning to ask . . . . Whatever happened to Grayson while I was dead?  Is it his turn now?

Bruce:  He died a nasty painful death in a leper colony.  I had him torched in a big bonfire.  You can't ever go look for any sign of him--or even ASK about him--or you'll get leprosy, too.

Damian:  How did Grayson get leprosy, Father?

Bruce:  It was a particularly virulent strain of a bacterium known as Didiocoli Leprosum, always fatal to anyone who catches it.

Damian:  I don't want to catch leprosy, Father.

Bruce:  Then shut up.

----------


## Godlike13

I expect Damian to bring up Dick about as much as he did before in Tomasi's B&R.

----------


## Cold Water

> I'm sorry I didn't see that; it's a beautiful piece of Perez art.  If you ever have the chance, get the black and white portfolio of those covers' prints; I believe that Perez inked his own pencils and the detail is astonishing.  Thanks so much for posting the eye candy!


Thanks!
Where can I get those/find those?
Those were from "A Lonely Place of Dying".
I'm not sure which individual issues those are from because the book doesn't state.

----------


## jules

> Thanks!
> Where can I get those/find those?
> Those were from "A Lonely Place of Dying".
> I'm not sure which individual issues those are from because the book doesn't state.


The portfolio was released in 1990, so might be pretty hard to find now. It is very nice though. It includes black and white prints of the 4 Batman Year Four covers and the 5 Lonely Place of Dying covers, plus three additional Batman & Robin non-cover images by Perez to round the set up to a dozen: one image of them swinging above the rooftops, another in the Batmobile emerging from the Batcave, and one with them clinging to a hit air balloon as the Joker tries to get rid of them. They're about twice the size of a normal comic cover.

Batman Year Three was in Batman #436-439, and Lonely Place Of Dying was in Batman #440-442 and The New Titans #60-61.

----------


## Constantine

> That is quite the request.


And I'm still waiting.

----------


## Badou

So Grayson didn't make it onto CBR's top 100 comics of 2014, Bleedingcool's best comics of 2014 and Newsarama's top comics of 2014. Wonder if any other somewhat big site is going to put it on their end of the year list.

----------


## tako

> So Grayson didn't make it onto CBR's top 100 comics of 2014, Bleedingcool's best comics of 2014 and Newsarama's top comics of 2014. Wonder if any other somewhat big site is going to put it on their end of the year list.


Didn't make Comicosity's list either.

----------


## Godlike13

Just isn't big enough with the Tumblr crowd.

----------


## Cold Water

> The portfolio was released in 1990, so might be pretty hard to find now. It is very nice though. It includes black and white prints of the 4 Batman Year Four covers and the 5 Lonely Place of Dying covers, plus three additional Batman & Robin non-cover images by Perez to round the set up to a dozen: one image of them swinging above the rooftops, another in the Batmobile emerging from the Batcave, and one with them clinging to a hit air balloon as the Joker tries to get rid of them. They're about twice the size of a normal comic cover.
> 
> Batman Year Three was in Batman #436-439, and Lonely Place Of Dying was in Batman #440-442 and The New Titans #60-61.


You are extremely helpful and awesome.
Thank you very much!!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Cold Water

> I'm sorry I didn't see that; it's a beautiful piece of Perez art.  If you ever have the chance, get the black and white portfolio of those covers' prints; I believe that Perez inked his own pencils and the detail is astonishing.  Thanks so much for posting the eye candy!



And now I'm on the hunt!
Thank you!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Cold Water

> And I'm still waiting.


Is this your first time posting in this thread?
If so, a "pretty please" and/or a Dick joke go a long way. :Wink: 
I, unfortunately, cannot help you out as I'm pretty new to reads of the character myself.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Just isn't big enough with the Tumblr crowd.


Pretty much this. Also it wasn't published by Image.

And any list that ranks the Miles Morales snore fest loses plenty of points in my book.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Is this your first time posting in this thread?
> If so, a "pretty please" and/or a Dick joke go a long way.


You can also mention the Forever Evil "death".

----------


## Badou

I think a lot of the attention was sort of taken away from Grayson when Batgirl and Gotham Academy (you can throw in the new Catwoman team, Gotham by Midnight, Arkham Mannor too) were launched after it. Batgirl and Gotham Academy have been talked about all over the place since they were launched. Then you have all the things that happened in Eternal and Endgame (especially with the Joker being back in it) to take attention away as well. So I think some people overlook Grayson with the more buzz worthy books getting the attention and recognition at the end of the year. Since they are what is on people's minds. Grayson is a solid book, but it hasn't exactly generated a lot of buzz itself. There haven't really been a lot of shocking or amazing moments that catch people off guard. It's just been a collection of some pretty good to good one off stories so far as it slowly gets through its first arc. 

Also maybe the stigma of it being a Dick Grayson solo hurts it some given the years and years of mediocrity his solo books have had. People, and even creators, just tend to overlook his books it seems sometimes, or at least not pay it that much attention.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> I think a lot of the attention was sort of taken away from Grayson when Batgirl and Gotham Academy (you can throw in the new Catwoman team, Gotham by Midnight, Arkham Mannor too) were launched after it. Batgirl and Gotham Academy have been talked about all over the place since they were launched. Then you have all the things that happened in Eternal and Endgame (especially with the Joker being back in it) to take attention away as well. So I think some people overlook Grayson with the more buzz worthy books getting the attention and recognition at the end of the year. Since they are what is on people's minds. Grayson is a solid book, but it hasn't exactly generated a lot of buzz itself. There haven't really been a lot of shocking or amazing moments that catch people off guard. It's just been a collection of some pretty good to good one off stories so far as it slowly gets through its first arc. 
> 
> Also maybe the stigma of it being a Dick Grayson solo hurts it some given the years and years of mediocrity his solo books have had. People, and even creators, just tend to overlook his books it seems sometimes, or at least not pay it that much attention.


Catwoman, Gotham by Midnight are good books in their own rights but they haven't exactly set the critics a-buzzing or the sales charts on fire.  Arkham Manor is tied directly into the Endgame stuff so it currently has a lot more click-bait appeal.  

_Grayson_ has been a series full of great Dick-work & gorgeous art and framed by an 'innovative' story technique. (One & Done's)  It's a great book and it gets very little attention because there's no longer any controversy with the concept, its just got major holdouts in the stubborn old dudes & hipster comic fiends demos.  The former who want to read the same lame street level Nightwing stuff & constantly bemoan the lack of Teen Titans friends & family DC bs.  The latter who won't read a book unless there are sexual and cultural ovetones/metatextual concepts they can talk about on their hip comic blogs.

DC is behind this book, the creators are into the book heavy sales are great when viewed in context. Comic reviewers & "news" sites need to tighten up because this a pretty fucking Great Grayson book.

----------


## Badou

> Catwoman, Gotham by Midnight are good books in their own rights but they haven't exactly set the critics a-buzzing or the sales charts on fire.  Arkham Manor is tied directly into the Endgame stuff so it currently has a lot more click-bait appeal.  
> 
> _Grayson_ has been a series full of great Dick-work & gorgeous art and framed by an 'innovative' story technique. (One & Done's)  It's a great book and it gets very little attention because there's no longer any controversy with the concept, its just got major holdouts in the stubborn old dudes & hipster comic fiends demos.  The former who want to read the same lame street level Nightwing stuff & constantly bemoan the lack of Teen Titans friends & family DC bs.  The latter who won't read a book unless there are sexual and cultural ovetones/metatextual concepts they can talk about on their hip comic blogs.
> 
> DC is behind this book, the creators are into the book heavy sales are great when viewed in context. Comic reviewers & "news" sites need to tighten up because this a pretty fucking Great Grayson book.


Pretty much every site I am seeing doesn't have it on its best of 2014 list. So I doubt that it is a bunch of people who want to _"read the same lame street level Nightwing stuff & constantly bemoan the lack of Teen Titans friends & family DC"_ leaving him out of these lists. I was just trying to think what are some actual reasons for it. I mean it isn't like Higgins' Nightwing series was on these lists the previous years and are leaving off Grayson to spite the new direction. 

I included Catwoman, Arkham Manor and Gotham by Midnight to show how many other Batman books were released after Grayson. Batgirl and Gotham Academy are obviously the two standouts from the group of new Bat titles, but with so many new titles, changes, and big events in the Batman line since Grayson was released it isn't surprising that people who are making their Best of 2014 lists overlook a series that launched early in the Summer now. Plus Grayson hasn't really done a lot to help itself stand out with its choice of storytelling, imo. It's been moving very slow. 

Though I wouldn't call Gryason a great book, but I think it deserves to be on some lists for 2014. It is a pretty good book with a solid creative team doing some wonderful character work, but I don't think I can call the stories or the supporting cast great. At least not yet. Maybe my opinion will change by the end of the first arc in March.

----------


## OversizedLoad

> Pretty much every site I am seeing doesn't have it on its best of 2014 list. So I doubt that it is a bunch of people who want to _"read the same lame street level Nightwing stuff & constantly bemoan the lack of Teen Titans friends & family DC"_ leaving him out of these lists. I was just trying to think what are some actual reasons for it. I mean it isn't like Higgins' Nightwing series was on these lists the previous years and are leaving off Grayson to spite the new direction. 
> 
> I included Catwoman, Arkham Manor and Gotham by Midnight to show how many other Batman books were released after Grayson. Batgirl and Gotham Academy are obviously the two standouts from the group of new Bat titles, but with so many new titles, changes, and big events in the Batman line since Grayson was released it isn't surprising that people who are making their Best of 2014 lists overlook a series that launched early in the Summer now. Plus Grayson hasn't really done a lot to help itself stand out with its choice of storytelling, imo. It's been moving very slow. 
> 
> Though I wouldn't call Gryason a great book, but I think it deserves to be on some lists for 2014. It is a pretty good book with a solid creative team doing some wonderful character work, but I don't think I can call the stories or the supporting cast great. At least not yet. Maybe my opinion will change by the end of the first arc in March.


We've gotten a complete story every month. Character development that some writers would spread out over a year packed into a single issue.  An issue, #4 The Man-ty Raid,  that highlighted the fun and energy a Dick solo should have with a synthesis in one page of what being a hero means to Dick.  Issue five which was light on storytelling for some but for me just burned that spirit drive & determination that characterizes Dick into my mind. That's a lot for any comic t do. Grayson does that and more. 
 If this book is published by Image we are a top 50 book easy. If Dick hooks up with Tiger instead of Agent 8. If Dick vs Midnighter in issue one is a lot more shirtless & sweaty & subtext-y. We are a top three comic.  That's how things are with these "reviewers". The direction is bold for an established character and the direction is bold for the DC that should factor in heavily but it doesn't in a lot if people's minds.     

Higgins' Nightwing suffered from his choice of storytelling, padding leading into the Next Snyder Event, which ultimately did nothing for him as a storyteller and for his MC.  Honestly in the New 52 it wasn't Didio that killed Dick it was Marts, the entire concept of _Talon_  would have been a great follow through on the "Prince of Gotham" thing for Dick. Instead we got limp writing from Tynion coupled with some pretty inconsistent art.

----------


## Godlike13

> If Dick hooks up with Tiger instead of Agent 8. If Dick vs Midnighter in issue one is a lot more shirtless & sweaty & subtext-y. We are a top three comic.  That's how things are with these "reviewers". The direction is bold for an established character and the direction is bold for the DC that should factor in heavily but it doesn't in a lot if people's minds.


Hahaha u might get shit for this, and it might not be completely fair, but there is truth to this. Its too hard not to notice.

----------


## jules

> If this book is published by Image we are a top 50 book easy. If Dick hooks up with Tiger instead of Agent 8. If Dick vs Midnighter in issue one is a lot more shirtless & sweaty & subtext-y. We are a top three comic.  That's how things are with these "reviewers". The direction is bold for an established character and the direction is bold for the DC that should factor in heavily but it doesn't in a lot if people's minds.


Heh. It only bites because there's a grain of truth in there.

The only real publicity making controversy it's had is over Nightwing #30, which was a bit of a rushed mess that only partly resembled the finished product. But sadly there are people who pre-judged based on that, and didn't try Grayson when it was released. I know several people who've since shown interest in trying it, but they're waiting for the trade. So it might do better next year.

At least it's in good company. Lemire/Sorrentino's Green Arrow, Soule's Swamp Thing, Harley Quinn and Bat-books other than Batman, Batgirl and Gotham Academy didn't make the CBR list either. I suspect that its biggest problem is that the people making the lists don't read that many DC books, so miss out on some of the good ones.

They seem to do better amongst reviewers who've reviewed them though. Especially Grayson:

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...f-2014-part-2/

----------


## Dzetoun

I think everyone has some very good points.  I guess my take on this is a combination of the above.  _Grayson_ was hurt by timing, as awards and best-of lists inevitably favor the recent past.  It also had a rough launch that may have turned off potential readers, and there are still a lot of people out there who aren't sold on the whole direction.  The active hostility seen occasionally in the early days has faded, but you still encounter a lot of wariness and cocked eyebrows.

People who preside over these lists and awards are usually looking for three things: artistic and technical innovation, social relevance, and trendiness (or "hipness" nowadays).  Hipness is the domain of _Batgirl_ and, a little surprisingly, _Gotham Academy_.  Social relevance is _Bitch Planet_, _Deadly Class_, and _Ms. Marvel_.  In that the innovation group reads anything this side of Fantagraphics and _The Comics Journal_, they like the Morrisons and Fractions and Williamsons much more than the Seeleys and Kings and Johnses and Snyders.

_Grayson_ doesn't fall into any of those categories.  It is more beefcake than hip, and doesn't have any kind of social relevance or political edge.  If they had really played up the dark side of the spy business, such as we saw in _Tec 36_, they probably would have gotten more buzz.  In terms of narrative and technical innovation, once again that really isn't the book's style.  Early on King was saying this would be DC's _Breaking Bad_ or _The Americans_.  It is actually more like Connery/Moore Bond or _The Man from UNCLE_.

And there is a prejudice against the Big Two in a lot of places.  Some people just can't bring themselves to believe that anything good comes from DC or Marvel.  One piece of good news for superhero fans is that the phenomenon cuts both ways to an extent.  There was actually some discussion about this on social media last week.  Seeley said it was his impression that small publishers put value on getting awards and such, but he suspects that Marvel and DC don't care a great deal.

----------


## HellHere

Grayson's been listed as (shock, horror) "The Hunkiest Shirtles Super Spy" in Comics Alliances Uatu The Watcher Memorial Awards.

Not one I saw coming, but if it fits...

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> The former who want to read the same lame street level Nightwing stuff & constantly bemoan the lack of Teen Titans friends & family DC bs.


You have right here. I'm one of them.
I like the new Grayson book but I mostly miss the old vigilante stuffs and family business with Titans and batfamily.
Maybe if they manged better the transformation of the character it would be easier for an old reader like me. Exhibit his secret identity and faking is death was only a bad move for the only purpose of supporting Johns's Forever Evil.
What arise above all this has been a good work, but not how they come to this point.
Despite this new direction is interesting, well written and had a great cast, if they'd announce a new Nightwing series starting after Convergence I'll be so excited.
I know that i could be wrong, that maybe this is a retrograde view but this is exactly what i feel, I can't fully enjoy Grayson because I huge miss Nightwing.

----------


## Rich Johnston

> So Grayson didn't make it onto CBR's top 100 comics of 2014, Bleedingcool's best comics of 2014 and Newsarama's top comics of 2014. Wonder if any other somewhat big site is going to put it on their end of the year list.


It would have been in our top 100, for the desert issue alone. We just did 11.

----------


## OWL45

> It would have been in our top 100, for the desert issue alone. We just did 11.


Sir that's awesome to hear. The book is sincerely underated and gets hate for the nostalgia sake of some. Grayson has been one of the best books when it comes to the big two put out month after month. Their is a lot of trash put out every month that get accolades. I'm glad to see your site does have the same bias that other sites show in their reviews. Where you can tell they barely read the book.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I have nostalgia for Nightwing but I don't hate Grayson. 
This book is easily in the top 10 of DC at the moment, my only regret is that to have it we lost Nightwing. 
I also think that the spy role was better fitting for Jason Todd or mainly for Tim Drake which character is losing core and purpose with the new reboot.

----------


## tako

> I have nostalgia for Nightwing but I don't hate Grayson. 
> This book is easily in the top 10 of DC at the moment, my only regret is that to have it we lost Nightwing. 
> I also think that the spy role was better fitting for Jason Todd or mainly for Tim Drake which character is losing core and purpose with the new reboot.





> You have right here. I'm one of them.
> I like the new Grayson book but I mostly miss the old vigilante stuffs and family business with Titans and batfamily.
> Maybe if they manged better the transformation of the character it would be easier for an old reader like me. Exhibit his secret identity and faking is death was only a bad move for the only purpose of supporting Johns's Forever Evil.
> What arise above all this has been a good work, but not how they come to this point.
> Despite this new direction is interesting, well written and had a great cast, if they'd announce a new Nightwing series starting after Convergence I'll be so excited.
> I know that i could be wrong, that maybe this is a retrograde view but this is exactly what i feel, I can't fully enjoy Grayson because I huge miss Nightwing.


I think that's what a lot of people are thinking, that this book is missing the "Nightwing" aspect - but I think that's completely wrong.

This is a Nightwing book. This is a book about Nightwing, this is about everything that Nightwing is/was/will be. Except, it's Nightwing without his old mask, without his old costume. He's still the same exact character.

Dick Grayson _is_ Nightwing, but without the appearance of Nightwing.

From my perspective, the character hasn't lost anything by being in the spy role - in fact, it's a amalgamation of Nightwing's history in the present. Remember when he was a cop? Remember when he was Renegade? Remember when he was a mob enforcer? Remember when his parents got killed on the trapeze? Remember when Batman took him up? Remember when he was on the Titans? Remember when he was Batman? Everything. Yeah, this is all of that. Grayson #4, Futures End, Secret Origins, makes that pretty explicit - well, actually, pretty much every issue makes it explicit. I am a huge Nightwing fan - and I've never felt any loss of the Nightwing character since Grayson came out.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

> On the subject of Damian's failure to react to Dick's death, Patrick Gleason was asked today on Tumblr and had an unsurprising answer:
> 
> http://patrickgleason.tumblr.com/


Has anyone asked Tomasi, I wonder? I know he's on twitter, but I haven't seen anything yet.

----------


## HellHere

I doubt he'll do anything. Having Dick pop up when it doesn't really make sense for him to is an easy way of bumping up the importance of his character, but Dick isn't his so there's no real reason for him to give him a bump back.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Remember when he was Renegade? Remember when he was a mob enforcer?


We try not to, though.

----------


## Godlike13

Says u, Crutches 4 life  :Cool: ... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

http://batman-news.com/2015/01/01/be...batman-comics/

The editors of Batman News made their picks. They seem to love Grayson Futures End and the fill-in Tec story.

----------


## Claude

> http://batman-news.com/2015/01/01/be...batman-comics/
> 
> The editors of Batman News made their picks. They seem to love Grayson Futures End and the fill-in Tec story.


As well they should, both good storytelling that seemed very different to what the Bat Office was putting out previous years.

Which isn't to say I _loved_ the Tec Fill-In, but it felt fresh and interesting.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, honestly i thought the tec fill-in was pretty good. Even as a Grayson fan, while noticeably off on the take in parts, i still liked the intent there. They were embracing and even trying to use his new role as a spy. Which was cool to see, but shows that for consistency sake they still have to establish things and lay more solid groundwork with him as a spy, and what his kind of spy is, before they're ready for that. But when things are more established, i do hope we'll start seeing that. Books not just using Dick, but using Dick as a spy doing spy work.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It was definitely an interesting story that could have probably benefited from an extra issue. I thought it was wrapped up a little quickly. And since it was a fill-in story, it was probably written before anyone had a clear idea on the direction of Grayson.

----------


## OWL45

> Ya, honestly i thought the tec fill-in was pretty good. Even as a Grayson fan, while noticeably off on the take in parts, i still liked the intent there. They were embracing and trying to use his new role as a spy. Which was cool to see, but shows that for consistency sake they still have to establish things and lay more solid groundwork with him as a spy, the what his kind of spy is, before they're ready for that. But when things are more established, i do hope we'll start seeing that. Books not just using Dick, but using Dick as a spy doing spy work.


I didn't think it was that bad either. I got what they were trying to do. I thought it portrayed Dick with an edge we haven't  seen before. It was actually pretty cool in my opinion. I think it opens the door for him to be used in other books as a spy/intelligence asset.

----------


## Badou

Speaking of Detective the issue this month is the 75th anniversary issue of Dick Grayson's first appearance. Last year when they did something special for the first appearance of Batman in Tec #27 I wondered if they would do anything for Dick's first appearance in #38, or if the current Tec creative team was even aware of it. 

Since they are in the middle of an arc we've known they weren't going to do anything for it for a while, but it is a shame they didn't. Or at least DC could have lined up having the special Dick Grayson/Robin 75th Anniversary variant month in January so issue #38 of Tec lined up with it. They are doing the special Flash 75th Anniversary variants for January though.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Speaking of Detective the issue this month is the 75th anniversary issue of Dick Grayson's first appearance. Last year when they did something special for the first appearance of Batman in Tec #27 I wondered if they would do anything for Dick's first appearance in #38, or if the current Tec creative team was even aware of it. 
> 
> Since they are in the middle of an arc we've known they weren't going to do anything for it for a while, but it is a shame they didn't. Or at least DC could have lined up having the special Dick Grayson/Robin 75th Anniversary variant month in January so issue #38 of Tec lined up with it. They are doing the special Flash 75th Anniversary variants for January though.


Aren't they reprinting the original cover of _Detective Comics #38_ as the Flash variant for _Batman and Robin #38_?  As you say, it would make more historical sense to line it up with the _Tec_ issue, but modern readers by and large don't associate Robin (any of them) with that title.  If they did a Robin cover for _Tec_, especially as part of an arc where no Robin appears, I think it would cause flat-out confusion for a lot of folks.  On the other hand, the historical cover does line up with the theme of _Batman and Robin._  It's true they aren't calling attention to the historical reference, but people who care about it will get it, and others won't be unduly puzzled.

----------


## wickedmountain

> Speaking of Detective the issue this month is the 75th anniversary issue of Dick Grayson's first appearance. Last year when they did something special for the first appearance of Batman in Tec #27 I wondered if they would do anything for Dick's first appearance in #38, or if the current Tec creative team was even aware of it. 
> 
> Since they are in the middle of an arc we've known they weren't going to do anything for it for a while, but it is a shame they didn't. Or at least DC could have lined up having the special Dick Grayson/Robin 75th Anniversary variant month in January so issue #38 of Tec lined up with it. They are doing the special Flash 75th Anniversary variants for January though.


  hmmm that's sad would of been a cool thing for them to do  :Frown:

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

DC  wont give proper respect and attention to anyone not in the Trinity, even for the Flash 75 years they don't use the original expect the one that is more popular. With Convergence and the Move to California, they don't seem to put honoring the Original Robin at the top of their list.

----------


## oasis1313

> DC  wont give proper respect and attention to anyone not in the Trinity, even for the Flash 75 years they don't use the original expect the one that is more popular. With Convergence and the Move to California, they don't seem to put honoring the Original Robin at the top of their list.


Probably too busy picking out curtains for the new offices.

----------


## tako

> *Speaking of Detective the issue this month is the 75th anniversary issue of Dick Grayson's first appearance. Last year when they did something special for the first appearance of Batman in Tec #27 I wondered if they would do anything for Dick's first appearance in #38, or if the current Tec creative team was even aware of it.* 
> 
> Since they are in the middle of an arc we've known they weren't going to do anything for it for a while, but it is a shame they didn't. Or at least DC could have lined up having the special Dick Grayson/Robin 75th Anniversary variant month in January so issue #38 of Tec lined up with it. They are doing the special Flash 75th Anniversary variants for January though.


I've been yelling about this on Twitter for a bit.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Good news: Comics Alliance awarded Grayson the much-cherished "Hunkiest Shirtless Super Spy" award.

http://comicsalliance.com/the-uatu-t...014-part-four/

----------


## Badou

> Aren't they reprinting the original cover of _Detective Comics #38_ as the Flash variant for _Batman and Robin #38_?  As you say, it would make more historical sense to line it up with the _Tec_ issue, but modern readers by and large don't associate Robin (any of them) with that title.  If they did a Robin cover for _Tec_, especially as part of an arc where no Robin appears, I think it would cause flat-out confusion for a lot of folks.  On the other hand, the historical cover does line up with the theme of _Batman and Robin._  It's true they aren't calling attention to the historical reference, but people who care about it will get it, and others won't be unduly puzzled.


Yeah, that sort of makes sense I guess. Plus Dick's actual 75th anniversary is in April, but that is during Convergence. So they can't really do anything special for it then. 

But they could have also road the Damian being revived hype and celebrated the Robin anniversary in January just after he was revived. Since if they do decided to celebrate Dick Grayson/Robin's anniversary it will probably just be all the Robins they are celebrating and not just Dick. They have to wait until June now to celebrate it if they do but by that time all the attention around Damian will have died down probably. 




> I've been yelling about this on Twitter for a bit.


I'm guessing no one has responded about it? They didn't do anything special for the Teen Titans 50th anniversary last year, other than just release a small collection of their stories without much promotion, and it seems they might only release a small collection of Dick as Robin stories too. I do wonder if they will do anything beyond that. January is the Flash variant month for his 75th but after that for some reason they jump over to Harley Quinn month rather than continue the special 75th anniversary variant month theme with Robin/Dick, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Captain Marvel/Shazam, or the JSA. It is all their 75th this year along with Flash I think.

----------


## dietrich

> Nightwing #29 Cover by Stjepan Sejic.
> 
> I heard you guys like Jon Snow. I mean Dick Grayson. DAKINGINDANORF!


Man that is hot. Not a fan of facial hair but Dick Grayson rocks it. I can't wait for this Metal has been really enjoyable thus far

----------


## Alycat

> A DARK NIGHTS: METAL tie-in! GOTHAM RESISTANCE part two! One vanquished foe gives way to another, even worse threat as this crucial tie-in to DCs METAL continues! Hopelessly lost in a kingdom of snow and ice, our heroes are set upon by Mr. Freeze and his fearsome frost giants from the Dark Multiverse! But help arrives in the form of an at once foreign and familiar Dick Grayson


Thanks. I won't lie though he really looks like Garth.

----------


## Godlike13

Holy crap, DC should do a Game of Thrones theme variant month. TW does own HBO after all.

----------


## yohyoi

> Thanks. I won't lie though he really looks like Garth.


Stjepan Sejic has a face likeness problem from time to time, especially for guys and redheads. Mikel Janin is another artist who has the face likeness problem. Although their art still looks great.

----------


## Katana500

> Holy crap, DC should do a Game of Thrones theme variant month. TW does own HBO after all.


That would be amazing!!

----------


## Red obin

In my continues retread of Grayson I have noticed despite only plotting it, Tom King managed to sneak a kite man mention in. I still love that former CIA agent Tom King wrote secret agent spyral stories.

----------


## yohyoi

> In my continues retread of Grayson I have noticed despite only plotting it, Tom King managed to sneak a kite man mention in. I still love that former CIA agent Tom King wrote secret agent spyral stories.


I loved his The Omega Men. Arguably my top New52/DCYou era series. Hopefully Mister Miracle will be as great.

----------


## Pohzee

Not digging the chinstrap.

----------


## oasis1313

Not digging the guyliner, either.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Man that is hot. Not a fan of facial hair but Dick Grayson rocks it. I can't wait for this Metal has been really enjoyable thus far


Same, tbh. The thing is tho, I genuinely would prefer the Gotham Resistance stuff was 6 issues and Metal itself was 4 than the current situation. It's not like this is the most original stuff, but it's going to so fun to see the old villain territory, event style Gotham turned up to eleven with crazy mazes and frost giants and everything. Plus Dick. 




> Holy crap, DC should do a Game of Thrones theme variant month. TW does own HBO after all.


YOOOOO they seriously need to. The Jon Snow vibes here are great, I'd love it if Dick chilled in this for a while, a few story arcs at least, but that's obviously not going to happen, which sucks. I wonder if we'll even see Dick in this in the issue itself or it its just for the cover... I'd be sad if we didn't get that crazy Minotaur in the story itself, too, so I'm hoping it's accurate. I guess we'll have to wait for Casey Jones' variant or the preview to really know.




> Thanks. I won't lie though he really looks like Garth.


Eh, a bit, but I can tell the difference purely based on their hair, facial hair, nose, and chin, so it doesn't bother me. Like others have said, it's just sameface, nothing to really be done about it and I honestly couldn't care less.

So. I've already seen people make Ygritte-Babs jokes, which would probably leave Kory as that one sister-in-law of Mance unfortunately knowing Bat editors, and idek who as *spoilers:*
Dany. Luka Netz maybe? She is the post-Flashpoint version of Kathy Kane, and so a pseudo-aunt for Dick...
*end of spoilers*

Might as well end this post with a "WINGINDANORF"

----------


## Frontier

> So. I've already seen people make Ygritte-Babs jokes, which would probably leave Kory as that one sister-in-law of Mance unfortunately knowing Bat editors, and idek who as *spoilers:*
> Dany. Luka Netz maybe? She is the post-Flashpoint version of Kathy Kane, and so a pseudo-aunt for Dick...
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Might as well end this post with a "WINGINDANORF"


Huh, I would've thought Starfire would invite more obvious Ygritte comparisons...

----------


## CPSparkles

> Nightwing #29 Cover by Stjepan Sejic.
> 
> I heard you guys like Jon Snow. I mean Dick Grayson. DAKINGINDANORF!


Nobody ever looks as good as Dick.
This looks EPIC!
Winter is coming indeed.

Is that Killer Croc and the Batman who Laughs?
Glad they're using him in GR.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Huh, I would've thought Starfire would invite more obvious Ygritte comparisons...


Yeah, true, lol. Of course, Jon does have another love interest in the books, the sister-in-law I mentioned, but it never really mattered which is why she's not in the show, and so I thought I'd make a joke about Bat Editors stopping Dick and Kory's marriage back then and pretending she doesn't matter as much as Babs. 




> Nobody ever looks as good as Dick.
> This looks EPIC!
> Winter is coming indeed.
> 
> Is that Killer Croc and the Batman who Laughs?
> Glad they're using him in GR.


Nah, that's just a frost giant, but yeah, that's the Batman Who Laughs. The amazing thing of all this is that it's mythical fantasy adventure meets Gotham City, which I can't help but love. Hope Dick is important through the whole event, I imagine he'll end up leading the group since he's the one who gathered everyone by sending out the distress signal.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yeah, true, lol. Of course, Jon does have another love interest in the books, the sister-in-law I mentioned, but it never really mattered which is why she's not in the show, and so I thought I'd make a joke about Bat Editors stopping Dick and Kory's marriage back then and pretending she doesn't matter as much as Babs. 
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, that's just a frost giant, but yeah, that's the Batman Who Laughs. The amazing thing of all this is that it's mythical fantasy adventure meets Gotham City, which I can't help but love. Hope Dick is important through the whole event, I imagine he'll end up leading the group since he's the one who gathered everyone by sending out the distress signal.


I believe he will be since he is the only Bat family member Synder gives a toss about [outside of his own] depends on how much influence Synder has over the tie ins.

I've been back and forth on these but the art really is such a draw. I hope the story matches the concept.

----------


## jbmasta

> Holy crap, DC should do a Game of Thrones theme variant month. TW does own HBO after all.


They haven't done a variant month since the very start of Rebirth. Personally I think they were fun and added more interest in collecting certain issues. Did DC put them behind an order wall like Marvel do?

----------


## oasis1313

Dick is most handsome one there is.

----------


## Red obin

> They haven't done a variant month since the very start of Rebirth. Personally I think they were fun and added more interest in collecting certain issues. Did DC put them behind an order wall like Marvel do?


Although it is not for all books I believe I saw some solicited dc november justice league variants for certain books.

----------


## jbmasta

> Although it is not for all books I believe I saw some solicited dc november justice league variants for certain books.


Which ones?

Usually there's a regular artist on each title who does the variant covers, usually relating to something in that issue. I do like how you can identify the variant covers by the lack of the banner on the top naming the story arc. I suppose line-wide themes could be seen as a marketing strategy when sales in general are flagging (look at how often it was done in the late New 52/DC You period). Additionally these themes weren't done for all titles, probably decided by whether they were high profile or selling well enough to justify it (during the aforementioned period Green Lantern New Guardians only got one variant, the steampunk for #28 and Omega Men only had variants with the first three issues).

My favorite one was the movie poster variants in March 2015. Some of those would have sold pretty decently as actual posters. The adult coloring book ones were cool, a bit more interactive if you were so inclined. An actual collection of that might not have gone amiss, so people could color them in without coloring in the actual covers.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> They haven't done a variant month since the very start of Rebirth. Personally I think they were fun and added more interest in collecting certain issues. Did DC put them behind an order wall like Marvel do?


No, DC dropped that practice completely now. It's part of their retailer/consumer friendly image they pushed when Rebirth started. Every issue gets a regular cover and a variant cover, but the latter doesn't require any extra orders or anything, which is great for retailers and consumers. Of course, they haven't stopped that kinda thing completely, I think HQ and ASB first issues, Metal issues, etc., did have incentive variants, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the Dark Matter initiative won't have incentive variants at all, and I doubt something Doomsday Clock would either.

----------


## Frontier

> No, DC dropped that practice completely now. It's part of their retailer/consumer friendly image they pushed when Rebirth started. Every issue gets a regular cover and a variant cover, but the latter doesn't require any extra orders or anything, which is great for retailers and consumers. Of course, they haven't stopped that kinda thing completely, I think HQ and ASB first issues, Metal issues, etc., did have incentive variants, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the Dark Matter initiative won't have incentive variants at all, and I doubt something Doomsday Clock would either.


Frankly, with how much Marvel uses variants to jack up their sales or to give retailers more incentive to over-order, I can't say I begrudge DC for slowing down on them.

----------


## Alycat

So the annual is for Outlaws and I thought Dick was just fine.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So the annual is for Outlaws and I thought Dick was just fine.


I loved literally all of it. Also, The Beast showing up in this was nice since this is basically the second time Dick's gone up against him in a special issue of sorts recently (Grayson: Futures End, I mean). I really like that Dick and Jason are basically awkward brothers who have come around to admitting to caring about each other but don't know where to go from there, it's cute and funny, too. I can already tell people are not only going to be shipping Dick and Artemis now, they'll be shipping Jason and Artemis even moreso, but I imagine it'll be the people who ship Dick and Jason who'll get the most mileage out of this issue, especially with those bedroom pages, lmao. 

Good action, good art, good dialogue, good colours. All of it was good, imo.

----------


## Alycat

> I loved literally all of it. Also, The Beast showing up in this was nice since this is basically the second time Dick's gone up against him in a special issue of sorts recently (Grayson: Futures End, I mean). I really like that Dick and Jason are basically awkward brothers who have come around to admitting to caring about each other but don't know where to go from there, it's cute and funny, too. I can already tell people are not only going to be shipping Dick and Artemis now, they'll be shipping Jason and Artemis even moreso, but I imagine it'll be the people who ship Dick and Jason who'll get the most mileage out of this issue, especially with those bedroom pages, lmao. 
> 
> Good action, good art, good dialogue, good colours. All of it was good, imo.


Agreed. That page with Jason's thoughts on Dick, Dick telling stories about Jason, and in the trailer were great moments to me.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason admitting Dick at least tried (phone number, remember) nice touch. I also enjoyed Dick mentioning Jason was the harder worker. 

Loedbell played the shipping fandoms like a puppet master. Artemis looks infatuated in Grayson but all they talk about is Jason and Jason looks a bit jealous of Artemis infatuation but the moment Bizarro likes a girl, all he cares about is to give the kid a proverbial push for his first kiss.

----------


## Alycat

> Jason admitting Dick at least tried (phone number, remember) nice touch. I also enjoyed Dick mentioning Jason was the harder worker. 
> 
> Loedbell played the shipping fandoms like a puppet master. Artemis looks infatuated in Grayson but all they talk about is Jason and Jason looks a bit jealous of Artemis infatuation but the moment Bizarro likes a girl, all he cares about is to give the kid a proverbial push for his first kiss.


And clearly the tension between Jason and Dick!  Lol I'm sorry

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #29 Var. by Casey Jones.

BOO!!! No Dick Snow and Night Freeze.  :Frown:

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone else confused how Dick became Nightwing in the New52 Universe.

We know he became Nightwing after he made a deal with Deathstroke. But when the Teen Titans lost their memories, Dick was still Robin.

If Dick was Nightwing at that time, he will forget the deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing. If he wasn't yet Nightwing at that time, he will forget his deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing won't involve Deathstroke. All in all, it doesn't make sense his change to Nightwing involves Deathstroke, since they all lost their memories of the Teen Titans.

Thank you DC for our daily confusion.

----------


## oasis1313

> Anyone else confused how Dick became Nightwing in the New52 Universe.
> 
> We know he became Nightwing after he made a deal with Deathstroke. But when the Teen Titans lost their memories, Dick was still Robin.
> 
> If Dick was Nightwing at that time, he will forget the deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing. If he wasn't yet Nightwing at that time, he will forget his deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing won't involve Deathstroke. All in all, it doesn't make sense his change to Nightwing involves Deathstroke, since they all lost their memories of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Thank you DC for our daily confusion.


It's not worth our confusion--DC is just SLOPPY.  They think about this stuff a LOT less than we do.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Anyone else confused how Dick became Nightwing in the New52 Universe.
> 
> We know he became Nightwing after he made a deal with Deathstroke. But when the Teen Titans lost their memories, Dick was still Robin.
> 
> If Dick was Nightwing at that time, he will forget the deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing. If he wasn't yet Nightwing at that time, he will forget his deal with Deathstroke and his change to Nightwing won't involve Deathstroke. All in all, it doesn't make sense his change to Nightwing involves Deathstroke, since they all lost their memories of the Teen Titans.
> 
> Thank you DC for our daily confusion.


Actually, Dick was still with Slade and Rose even after their memories were erased. In one of the very first Deathstroke issues, Rose mentions she's trained with Dick and Slade, well, you know, he's Slade. 

My theory is that Dick was still training Rose even after his memory was erased, but as he grew more and more distant from Bruce (maybe had a falling out because of it, since Bruce wouldn't know why Dick would want to train Rose so much since neither of the two would remember the TT), it probably took a conversation with Superman to cheer him up, and that led to him taking up the name Nightwing. I think he probably stopped training her sometime afterwards, went back to Gotham and met Jason as per the RHatO Annual, and eventually put on a real Nightwing suit (the New 52 rendition of the NTT era suit) before meeting Kory and (reuniting, technically) Roy. I imagine those adventures came to an end when Dick had to step up to become Batman and he had a falling out with Kory and Roy, and it took his "death," return, and Titans Hunt/Starfire's solo for them to make up. 




> Nightwing #29 Var. by Casey Jones.
> 
> BOO!!! No Dick Snow and Night Freeze.


I reacted the same way on Twitter, but it was quickly pointed out to me that because it's the variant here, Sejic's cover is probably the more true one, as that's the main cover, and well, Sejic's also drawing Suicide Squad #26 for the event, so it'd make sense that he'd draw something relevant to the story. I'm thinking the Dark Multiverse may have altered all of Gotham all at once, so Damian and Kory's designs on the Teen Titans #12 cover and Dick's Jon Snow look in #29 may actually be a result of that, idk, "wave of dark energy" or whatever. 


Also, for anyone who is liking The New Order, there's this podcast episode that is basically all Higgins and all Nightwing, 17 minutes in and at least 16 minutes seconds of it has been Higgins speaking about New Order, with the others just asking very short questions, lol.
Edit: I'm stupid, I didn't even link it, smh. Here: http://rangerdangerpodcast.com/podca...e-new-order-1/

----------


## Frontier

I forget, does New 52 Mr. Freeze have ice gauntlets? I thought that was only the version from _The Batman_ cartoon.

----------


## Badou

I'm pretty sure the Roy and Starfire team Dick was on has been erased from continuity. The team he was on was the one we've seen since Titans Hunt and maybe Starfire joined that team. Which is good as anything the New 52 Outlaws did with Dick being erased is for the best, imo. I don't think Lobdell did the character any favors in his brief usage of him back then, and he especially shouldn't be the one filling in the holes now. I don't get why Seeley isn't allowed to do that. 

But Dick's history is a fucking mess. It's been that way since the New 52 and I don't think it is going to change any time soon. I'm not a fan of the falling out with Bruce and Dick probably being fired origin which is what lead him to become Nightwing, but it does seem they are going with some version of that again here.

----------


## Frontier

I feel like there's a balance to be had of Dick growing up and realizing he can't be Robin or Bruce's partner anymore but without going as overboard and straining their relationship as certain takes have done. 

Like, I can see there being a point where Bruce and Dick just can't work as well together as they used to but I think an amicable breakup works better then a bitter one unless we're actually going to see some genuine reconciliation at some point (or at least have it implied). I feel like we may have had this Pre-Crisis (and implied Post-Flashpoint). 

But I guess writers just like the idea of the Dynamic Duo having a dramatic breakup.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Idk, at least RHatO makes it seem like Dick is at least still sleeping in the same house as Bruce even with them not being a "Dynamic Duo" and since Jason's around as Robin, Dick's likely moved past that anyways, so I think it's ultimately more of an argument that causes a split than an actual "breakup."

Also, from that poscast from earlier, Higgins just "spoiled" something for #5 that he's teased earlier: *spoilers:*
a powerless Superman will be on the cover of #5, and it's Higgins' favourite design for the series. Considering Blue Lantern Lois shows up in #4... I'm interested to see what's going on.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

I don't think RHatO holds much bearing on Dicks history. We have seen it before indirectly reveal or change things when it would rewrite the past, but its rewrites don't last very long.

----------


## byrd156

> I forget, does New 52 Mr. Freeze have ice gauntlets? I thought that was only the version from _The Batman_ cartoon.


While I don't like the gauntlets at least The Batman version looked badass, I can't stand the current design of Mr.Freeze.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I'm pretty sure the Roy and Starfire team Dick was on has been erased from continuity. The team he was on was the one we've seen since Titans Hunt and maybe Starfire joined that team. Which is good as anything the New 52 Outlaws did with Dick being erased is for the best, imo. I don't think Lobdell did the character any favors in his brief usage of him back then, and he especially shouldn't be the one filling in the holes now. I don't get why Seeley isn't allowed to do that. 
> 
> But Dick's history is a fucking mess. It's been that way since the New 52 and I don't think it is going to change any time soon. I'm not a fan of the falling out with Bruce and Dick probably being fired origin which is what lead him to become Nightwing, but it does seem they are going with some version of that again here.


Dick losing his memories is still canon as having happened in Rebirth as is his relationship with Starfire afterwards, the added years place him becoming Nightwing before they lost their memories is all. It makes for a tight chain of events but that's hardly irregular for a long running superhero The amount of things crammed into Batman's timeline is no better.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't think RHatO holds much bearing on Dicks history. We have seen it before indirectly reveal or change things when it would rewrite the past, but its rewrites don't last very long.


The last thing RATHo touched on his story was letting readers know that he, Kory and Roy had already met and had at least a mission together and that he and Kory have had an intimate connection. 

That`s standard stuff that keeps getting mentioned in his history in other books. The most controversial is the breakup with Kory but with editorial permenantly in love with Barbara and Dick ad neasum, they obviously wouldn`t be together.

----------


## yohyoi

In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.

Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.

Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason

----------


## Red obin

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.
> 
> Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.
> 
> Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason


Damian's ears are... larger then usual,although I'm happy he looks more like a 13 year old.

----------


## yohyoi

> Damian's ears are... larger then usual,although I'm happy he looks more like a 13 year old.


That's what you get when you age a kid character three years, but you don't change his body design.

----------


## Frontier

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.
> 
> Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.
> 
> Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason


Oh hey, King remembered Ace  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## yohyoi

> Oh hey, King remembered Ace .


Good Boy was great. Alfred rocks.

----------


## Aahz

> Oh hey, King remembered Ace .


And he has still no respect for Jason.

----------


## DragonPiece

So excited to see the robins again Gonna need a Damian and Selena arc after this though

----------


## yohyoi

> So excited to see the robins again Gonna need a Damian and Selena arc after this though


That's if she says yes, but I'm starting to doubt it.

----------


## yohyoi

Some Titans tv series news. Amy Rohrbach, Dick's partner in Bludhaven PD, will appear. Hopefully they follow the comics and keep their relationship platonic.

http://thathashtagshow.com/2017/08/e...in-dcs-titans/

----------


## yohyoi

> DET AMY ROHRBACH Supporting Female (25-35) [OPEN] She is the detective alongside Dick Grayson who knows more than she lets on. Pretty, has tattoos,


I don't know why tattoos are required. Did Amy have tattoos in the comics? I don't remember.

----------


## yohyoi

Brenton Thwaites to Star in Greg Berlanti's DC Drama 'Titans'

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...titans-1034338

----------


## yohyoi

> "Dick Grayson is one of the most important and iconic heroes in the DC Universe, and it wasn't easy to find him but we have. Brenton has the emotional depth, heart, danger and physical presence of Batman's former protege and the Titans' future leader. We're extremely lucky he's chosen to bring his talents to this project and this character," Johns said.


I don't know what to think.

----------


## yohyoi

We have a Dick Grayson casting. OMG!!!

Edit: I'm gonna calm down first. Be back a few minutes.

----------


## Alycat

Oh it's that guy. His acting is pretty meh from what I've seen so far.

----------


## Rakiduam

He is male and white, just what they were looking for. He didn't suck in The Giver.

Nightwing #28 preview
http://batman-news.com/2017/08/31/ex...-nightwing-28/

----------


## yohyoi

He is quite handsome. I won't say any criticism until I see the first episode. Gal surprised me as Wonder Woman. I'm not making the same mistake twice.

----------


## Sodam Yat

> He is male and white, just what they were looking for. He didn't suck in The Giver.


So I take it that the actor isn't half Romani?

----------


## Aahz

I think it is a little strange that an actoor goes from quite big Hollywood productions, to aeries on streaming service that hasn't even started.

----------


## yohyoi

> So I take it that the actor isn't half Romani?


Dick was not a Romani descent for most of his existence. I don't think it's a must follow for the character.

If Bruce was shown to be Russian descent tomorrow, I don't think it must be followed too.

----------


## yohyoi

> I think it is a little strange that an actoor goes from quite big Hollywood productions, to aeries on streaming service that hasn't even started.


Charlie Cox from Daredevil is an example. He will be the lead so it's not like he will be sidelined.

----------


## FishyZombie

didnt really care for him in Pirates, but I'll keep an open mind.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.


Is that Tim? Is he already back in this story? That's great!


And about the Titans casting, I'm cautiously optimistic. For now, I'm going to try to do a little research first, since I've never even heard of this guy until now...

----------


## Red obin

Titans casting is decent, not seen him act but he looks the part. Like The Dark Heir I'm being cautiously optimistic.

Also enjoying the preview for #28, hopefully Minos and agent 0 is resolved as I presume it was just another decoy which is cheap but it is cool Minos is back as I loved him in Grayson.

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing #28 preview
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/31/ex...-nightwing-28/


I still don't know how Seeley will close the arc with so many plots still dangling. I'll be optimistic and hope he will do it well.

----------


## yohyoi

> Is that Tim? Is he already back in this story? That's great!
> 
> 
> And about the Titans casting, I'm cautiously optimistic. For now, I'm going to try to do a little research first, since I've never even heard of this guy until now...


Yup Tim is back.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know what to think.


Interesting that Johns specifically mentions him being Batman's protege...




> He is quite handsome. I won't say any criticism until I see the first episode. Gal surprised me as Wonder Woman. I'm not making the same mistake twice.


He doesn't scream Dick to me but at the same time he looks like quite the looker, which fits. I'm willing to give him a shot. 

I expect plenty of shirtless moments.

----------


## yohyoi

> Interesting that Johns specifically mentions him being Batman's protege...


You can't have Robin, the Boy Wonder, without Batman. A sidekick needs a hero to follow.

I'm more interested if they will introduce new Robins in the series.

----------


## Frontier

> You can't have Robin, the Boy Wonder, without Batman. A sidekick needs a hero to follow.
> 
> I'm more interested if they will introduce new Robins in the series.


The thing I was most curious about was whether they would actually address Batman at all. 

Seems like they just might.

----------


## The World

He looks decent but I don't know him from anything though.

----------


## Godlike13

> The thing I was most curious about was whether they would actually address Batman at all. 
> 
> Seems like they just might.


Im expecting them to handle it like the TT cartoon did.

----------


## Frontier

> Im expecting them to handle it like the TT cartoon did.


I can see that...

----------


## Badou

No idea what to think of the actor. Can't say I've seen him in anything. He doesn't look exactly like the character, but you sort of don't expect them to in these kind of adaptations. My expectation for the series is very low, I don't trust Johns or the other show runners involved that much, so we will see how it goes. 




> Dick losing his memories is still canon as having happened in Rebirth as is his relationship with Starfire afterwards, the added years place him becoming Nightwing before they lost their memories is all. It makes for a tight chain of events but that's hardly irregular for a long running superhero The amount of things crammed into Batman's timeline is no better.


No, the irregular part is that its been 6 years and we have no idea why or how he became Nightwing. At least everyone else has an origin for their identity even if it is good or bad, but Dick still doesn't have one for Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No idea what to think of the actor. Can't say I've seen him in anything. He doesn't look exactly like the character, but you sort of don't expect them to in these kind of adaptations. My expectation for the series is very low, I don't trust Johns or the other show runners involved that much, so we will see how it goes. 
> 
> 
> 
> No, the irregular part is that its been 6 years and we have no idea why or how he became Nightwing. At least everyone else has an origin for their identity even if it is good or bad, but Dick still doesn't have one for Nightwing.


he quit batman he lost robin title enter jason

----------


## Badou

> he quit batman he lost robin title enter jason


Did he quit or was he fried? Setting that aside why did he pick the Nightwing name? With Judas Contract erased from continuity that origin didn't happen anymore. 

The Robin identity is something Dick created on his own so it really shouldn't be something for Bruce to take from him, imo. Dick should move on from the identity on his own terms like he did in NTT.

----------


## Frontier

> Did he quit or was he fried? Setting that aside why did he pick the Nightwing name? With Judas Contract erased from continuity that origin didn't happen anymore. 
> 
> The Robin identity is something Dick created on his own so it really shouldn't be something for Bruce to take from him, imo. Dick should move on from the identity on his own terms like he did in NTT.


Well, Robin is Batman's partner so you'd think he'd get to have at least some say in who takes it over  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Badou

> Well, Robin is Batman's partner so you'd think he'd get to have at least some say in who takes it over .


The Robin identity isn't something Bruce came up with though. Bruce can pick his partner but I don't think the identity is his to give and take away, especially from the person that created it. The post crisis origin of Bruce firing Dick and telling him to leave the Robin identity and costume behind never felt right to me. It feels even more wrong given now Dick created the Robin identity to honor his deceased mother.

----------


## dietrich

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.
> 
> Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.
> 
> Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason


As a Damian fan this is already a fail. Ace but no Titus that doesn't endear me to this. I know Ace is an award winning dog but it doesn't take much effort to draw the two dogs that live in the manor. It's a small thing but it really annoys me a lot.

Also is he sitting on a cushion? he's as big as Dick.
I never wanted Damian in this and I know his in this to stomp and tantrum at his dad getting married but I didn't expect the annoyance to start so early.

----------


## Godlike13

Maybe Titus is at the Tower.

----------


## dietrich

> He is quite handsome. I won't say any criticism until I see the first episode. Gal surprised me as Wonder Woman. I'm not making the same mistake twice.


He looks the part but I'm not familiar with his work so can't comment on that but he tick's the box looks wise. But I don't know if he can balance Dick charm, power and personality. He doesn't look like everyone turns when he enters the room and Dick should have that.

Not sure if that makes sense?

----------


## dietrich

> Maybe Titus is at the Tower.


Nice idea Or King's Batman puts Damian's in storage whenever he's away  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

I need ass shot 
does he squat

----------


## nightbird

Brandon Thwaites as Nightwing? Not bad, I'm okay with their choice. He looks like Richard and has a nice smile to pull off his "charming" side. Now I'm more worried (and also curious) who WB is going to cast as DCEU's Dick Grayson.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Brandon Thwaites as Nightwing? Not bad, I'm okay with their choice. He looks like Richard and has a nice smile to pull off his "charming" side. Now I'm more worried (and also curious) who WB is going to cast as DCEU's Dick Grayson.


Well tht nightwing movie will be riding on the reception of this show if it tank and people tea it to shreadz say goodbye to ever seeing nightinwg in a tv show or a movie ever

----------


## Dzetoun

> He looks decent but I don't know him from anything though.


He was in the last PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN movie. I can't say I was impressed with his performance, but other than Geoffrey Rush everyone seemed to be sleepwalking through that film, even Johnny Depp. That probably speaks to issues with the direction more than the abilities of the actors. In Thwaites' case, he was also saddled with a conventional romantic subplot that both he and his female opposite obviously found uninspired. So, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I understand his work in Australia was at least reasonably well liked.

----------


## Lightning Rider

> Brenton Thwaites to Star in Greg Berlanti's DC Drama 'Titans'
> 
> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...titans-1034338


Holy crap.

----------


## nightbird

> Well tht nightwing movie will be riding on the reception of this show if it tank and people tea it to shreadz say goodbye to ever seeing nightinwg in a tv show or a movie ever


I think we will see Dick Grayson in DCEU no matter how Titans performs. Titans probably their way to somehow make more people aware about the character before his solo movie or just DCEU appearance happens.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.
> 
> Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.
> 
> Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason


Is that Tim with the book?

----------


## byrd156

I was expecting worse casting but not bad for tv.

----------


## Aioros22

Only in fandom you dissect a page with characters doing something random as "perfect and dignified" and someone goofing around with a dog a moron and only in Batman fandom a writer actually pretends to give a dog some sort of "win" ( I suppose, I don`t see anyone winning anything in the page) because of a joke related to a Twitter list. 

Well done  :Wink:

----------


## WhiteQueenEmmaFrost

> He is quite handsome. I won't say any criticism until I see the first episode. Gal surprised me as Wonder Woman. I'm not making the same mistake twice.


Dick Grayson is known for his ass...does this guy have a really nice ass?

----------


## Aioros22

Needs more squats.

----------


## RedQueen

Good casting so far but then I remember it's by the same people who do the CW superhero 'verse. Like they're fine at sometimes but then they take a dive quick.

----------


## OBrianTallent

brenton-thwaites-shirtless-on-the-beach-10.jpg
Looks a little flat...needs more squats

----------


## Rac7d*

> Good casting so far but then I remember it's by the same people who do the CW superhero 'verse. Like they're fine at sometimes but then they take a dive quick.


its not all up to him tho, the writting could be trash, Imso scared for this, this team doesnt seem the best suited for a televsion series since the effect need for major superpowered beings like BB rae and star are either gonna come out good or horrible and cheesy Does any of Dc shows include flashy heroes?

----------


## Frontier

> its not all up to him tho, the writting could be trash, Imso scared for this, this team doesnt seem the best suited for a televsion series since the effect need for major superpowered beings like BB rae and star are either gonna come out good or horrible and cheesy Does any of Dc shows include flashy heroes?


The Flash? Supergirl  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

I'd say Legends since they have Atom, Firestorm, and Vixen but they go out of their way on a daily basis not to showcase them using their powers.

----------


## RedQueen

I like the actor fine. He's Australian and I've seen him in stuff since he was in home and away and slide.  I'd just so rather a movie over a tv show just purely because I'm no longer a fan of the writing of the CW verse. I liked Supergirl in season 1 and my favorite character was Alex but the Mon el stuff made season 2 unbearable for me. It wasn't shipping nonsense but it was about they just hamfisted this character into the show so hard and I didn't find his schtick endearing and Kara became annoying. Same with the Olicity stuff in Arrow. I'm just really not into the whole shipping scene the CW uses to draw in viewers. Especially since they don't write good romances. Man Olicity gave me a headache before I bit the bullet and bailed on Arrow.

But yeah just the crew behind this show just is not to my tastes and the thing is they are about to take on such beloved characters. This isn't a thing they can fail quietly at. 





> The Flash? Supergirl ?
> 
> I'd say Legends since they have Atom, Firestorm, and Vixen but they go out of their way on a daily basis not to showcase them using their powers.


Yeah Legends should easily be a draw for the variety of heroes but usually it ends up being hand to hand combat and a scientific way out of it. The Atom rarely shrinks which is a very large part of the schtick but mostly he blasts things. Even so the dynamics in Legends are pretty basic.

----------


## Frontier

> I like the actor fine. He's Australian and I've seen him in stuff since he was in home and away and slide.  I'd just so rather a movie over a tv show just purely because I'm no longer a fan of the writing of the CW verse. I liked Supergirl in season 1 and my favorite character was Alex but the Mon el stuff made season 2 unbearable for me. It wasn't shipping nonsense but it was about they just hamfisted this character into the show so hard and I didn't find his schtick endearing and Kara became annoying. Same with the Olicity stuff in Arrow. I'm just really not into the whole shipping scene the CW uses to draw in viewers. Especially since they don't write good romances. Man Olicity gave me a headache before I bit the bullet and bailed on Arrow.


Maybe working with as iconic a couple as Dick and Kori will give them some incentive to write some good and meaningful romance  :Smile: ? 

Or one would hope  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Alycat

> Maybe working with as iconic a couple as Dick and Kori will give them some incentive to write some good and meaningful romance ? 
> 
> Or one would hope .


I like your optimism. I'm expecting a terrible love triangle somewhere and a million will they wont they situations.

----------


## RedQueen

> Maybe working with as iconic a couple as Dick and Kori will give them some incentive to write some good and meaningful romance ? 
> 
> Or one would hope .


I do very much hope. I can imagine those who grew up on the animated Teen Titans would definitely not be thrilled if it weren't.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Flash? Supergirl ?
> 
> I'd say Legends since they have Atom, Firestorm, and Vixen but they go out of their way on a daily basis not to showcase them using their powers.


Supergirls and the flash lol are not flashy 

the movie universe takes it up a notch but you can get by basicly with the same Smallville effects

But starfire raven and bestboy they cant shy away from, esp since they tend to use their abilites on the regular, 
watch beast boy and starfire no longer have multicolor skin just becuase its to difficult

Oh lord everyone is gonna hate raven for not being able use so and so power

Im so excited but scared

----------


## RedQueen

> Supergirls and the flash lol are not flashy 
> 
> the movie universe takes it up a notch but you can get by basicly with the same Smallville effects
> 
> But starfire raven and bestboy they cant shy away from, esp since they tend to use their abilites on the regular, 
> watch beast boy and starfire no longer have multicolor skin just becuase its to difficult
> 
> Oh lord everyone is gonna hate raven for not being able use so and so power
> 
> Im so excited but scared


Same. I'm scared it's gonna be sort of like the Inhumans aesthetic situation mixed with the CW verse mishandling of characters situation.

----------


## twincast

> In Batman 33, the boys (and the dog) are back. Art by the @Joelle_Jones.
> 
> Dick and Damian look perfect and dignified as always. While Jason is arguing with Ace the Bat-Hound if his jacket is too edgy to be worn inside or not. In the end the dog wins.
> 
> Ace the BatHound 1:0 Jason


Not individually quoting all the posts, but in reply to everyone reacting to the above image:

Huh? I'm seeing Jay, Dick, Duke and Damian (in this order); no Tim yet.

----------


## Frontier

> I like your optimism. I'm expecting a terrible love triangle somewhere and a million will they wont they situations.


Dick and Kori deserve better  :Stick Out Tongue: .

At least it probably won't be the obvious love triangle we would've gotten with the TNT show, since Oracle was potentially in it. 



> Same. I'm scared it's gonna be sort of like the Inhumans aesthetic situation mixed with the CW verse mishandling of characters situation.


I'm really worried with how they're going to handle Starfire's hair. 



> Not individually quoting all the posts, but in reply to everyone reacting to the above image:
> 
> Huh? I'm seeing Jay, Dick, Duke and Damian (in this order); no Tim yet.


Where are you seeing Duke? You think he's one of the kids on the couch (Damian seems like the one reading the book)?

----------


## Alycat

Most people think Duke is on the couch across from Dick who's on the side with Jason.

----------


## twincast

> Most people think Duke is on the couch across from Dick who's on the side with Jason.


Yep. Sure, the angle's not perfect, but the features look clearly Congoid to me, and the haircut is Duke's and not Damian's.

As for the boy reading the book: It would probably interest Tim even more, but Damian also likes to put as much information as possible into his brain (and then brag about it), and the face looks both too young for Tim and deliberately "ethnic". Also, standing antisocially in a corner among friends and family is totally Damian's stick. And again, albeit less definitely so: Haircut. Plus, Tim returns in real world time three weeks after the release of Batman #33, so showing him back already would make Detective Comics #968 rather anticlimactic.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

NSFW, but he definitely has the ass, just needs to do some squats to get his legs and everything defined. http://www.omgblog.com/2014/12/omg_h...#axzz3S3y32fjX

Also, how are you guys not talking about this? 
Gotham Resistence 1.jpg

Jon Snow Dick is a go, as is medieval everyone else! I'm super hyped for this story now, lol.

----------


## Godlike13

Wasn't really excited about underground till now. That looks awesome. Still don't get why Green Loser is there though.

----------


## Frontier

> NSFW, but he definitely has the ass, just needs to do some squats to get his legs and everything defined. http://www.omgblog.com/2014/12/omg_h...#axzz3S3y32fjX
> 
> Also, how are you guys not talking about this? 
> Gotham Resistence 1.jpg
> 
> Jon Snow Dick is a go, as is medieval everyone else! I'm super hyped for this story now, lol.


Mad Max Man-Bats. I just can't  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Badou

It has piqued my interest a bit. Dick tends to get treated poorly in events, especially ones that revolve around Bruce and the JL, but this seems a bit more disconnected. It might be interesting to just see Dick interact with some other DCU characters, like Green Arrow and Harley, at least.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Did he quit or was he fried? Setting that aside why did he pick the Nightwing name? With Judas Contract erased from continuity that origin didn't happen anymore. 
> 
> The Robin identity is something Dick created on his own so it really shouldn't be something for Bruce to take from him, imo. Dick should move on from the identity on his own terms like he did in NTT.


Judas Contract didn't explain why he picked "Nightwing". It just was just the threat he had to be superhero for again. And you understand that pre-Flashpoint still happened right? Jason is alive not because of a Lazarus Pit but because he rose from the grave in reaction to Superboy Prime punching through reality. That is still the case. Ripples from the old canon persist, as well they should.

----------


## Godlike13

We were told why he picked "Nightwing" in JC.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> We were told why he picked "Nightwing" in JC.


The name Nightwing comes from wacky adventures Superman, Batman and Robin went on in the Golden Age. Terra, Jericho, Deathstroke and Brother Blood and whathaveyou had nothing to do with it. To have those adventures Nightwing had to be older, for the Teen titans to be TEEN Titans with a classic cast not everyone can be older along with him. So Judas Contract as we knew it had to go. LC still made plenty mistakes but just restoring JC really shouldn't be the goal.

----------


## Badou

> Judas Contract didn't explain why he picked "Nightwing". It just was just the threat he had to be superhero for again. And you understand that pre-Flashpoint still happened right? Jason is alive not because of a Lazarus Pit but because he rose from the grave in reaction to Superboy Prime punching through reality. That is still the case. Ripples from the old canon persist, as well they should.


I think you've misunderstood something about Rebirth. We are still in the New 52 universe and the New 52 is still canon unless Rebirth specifically retconned it back to pre-Flashpoint. Rebirth did not set the continuity back to being pre-Flashpoint. I don't know why you thought that. So unless Rebirth put the Superboy Prime origin back in the Rebirth Outlaws book Jason was still revived by Talia through a Lazarus Pit. Just like Dick's Robin costume is now his New 52 one not the Pre-Flashpoint one, he didn't meet Bruce until he was 16, the Titans team Dick was on was the one we've seen since Titans Hunt, Tim calling himself Red Robin instead of Robin to honor Jason, and so on. That is still the continuity we are in unless it has been specifically changed back. 

And sure, "ripples" persist in some form since it gives writers the chance to retcon shitty New 52 continuity out if they can, but Lazarus Contract (a Rebirth story) contradicts Judas Contract and erased JC from being able to come back in the current canon. They can't coexist. So it didn't happen in the New 52 universe. Priest wanted to bring JC back but he wasn't allowed, so we got LC instead.  

And Judas Contract explained why he became Nightwing. He needed a new Superhero identity to in that story to help save the Titans. That is what I meant. It is the origin of the identity. We don't have that anymore and have no idea why he suddenly became Nightwing and only know that he became Nightwing some time ago for a reason we don't know in a story we haven't seen, which is a pretty big thing to not know about a superhero.

----------


## Godlike13

> The name Nightwing comes from wacky adventures Superman, Batman and Robin went on in the Golden Age. Terra, Jericho, Deathstroke and Brother Blood and whathaveyou had nothing to do with it. To have those adventures Nightwing had to be older, for the Teen titans to be TEEN Titans with a classic cast not everyone can be older along with him. So Judas Contract as we knew it had to go. LC still made plenty mistakes but just restoring JC really shouldn't be the goal.


Nevertheless it was still in JC, and the story leading up to it, where it was explained why Dick didn't want to be Robin anymore and why he picked "Nightwing". Whether or not they could recreate his motivations or reasons under different circumstance, the point is they haven't. With JC as we know it gone we have been left with a void when it comes to Nightwing's origin post New 52.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I think you've misunderstood something about Rebirth. We are still in the New 52 universe and the New 52 is still canon unless Rebirth specifically retconned it back to pre-Flashpoint. Rebirth did not set the continuity back to being pre-Flashpoint. I don't know why you thought that. So unless Rebirth put the Superboy Prime origin back in the Rebirth Outlaws book Jason was still revived by Talia through a Lazarus Pit.


I know, him getting out of the grave himself is what happened in New 52. THEN Talia took him a Lazarus pit.




> Just like Dick's Robin costume is now his New 52 one not the Pre-Flashpoint one, he didn't meet Bruce until he was 16, the Titans team Dick was on was the one we've seen since Titans Hunt, Tim calling himself Red Robin instead of Robin to honor Jason, and so on. That is still the continuity we are in unless it has been specifically changed back. 
> 
> And sure, "ripples" persist in some form since it gives writers the chance to retcon shitty New 52 continuity out if they can, but Lazarus Contract (a Rebirth story) contradicts Judas Contract and erased JC from being able to come back in the current canon. They can't coexist. So it didn't happen in the New 52 universe. Priest wanted to bring JC back but he wasn't allowed, so we got LC instead.  
> 
> And Judas Contract explained why he became Nightwing. He needed a new Superhero identity to in that story to help save the Titans. That is what I meant. It is the origin of the identity. We don't have that anymore and have no idea why he suddenly became Nightwing and only know that he became Nightwing some time ago for a reason we don't know in a story we haven't seen, which is a pretty big thing to not know about a superhero.


Without Kandor JC by itself wouldn't tell why he became Nightwing. Rebirth doesn't give us a reason to believe he stopped being a superhero in the first place, but does tell us him and Batman still had the same issues, he had other obligations that didn't allow him to be around as Batman's partner. I don't think every plot point needs another round of spelling out again in every soft reboot DC does, we'd never get anywhere.

----------


## Badou

> Without Kandor JC by itself wouldn't tell why he became Nightwing. Rebirth doesn't give us a reason to believe he stopped being a superhero in the first place, but does tell us him and Batman still had the same issues, he had other obligations that didn't allow him to be around as Batman's partner. I don't think every plot point needs another round of spelling out again in every soft reboot DC does, we'd never get anywhere.


I don't think everything needs explained, but the origin of your superhero identity is important enough that it needs to be explained, imo. That deserves a story, especially when the iconic story in which you first appear as Nightwing is no longer canon. There is a big gap there.

----------


## dietrich

Originally posted on the Tim thread

So to be clear 3 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most. Fan debates to prove their's have a relationship with him and Dick is in the corner looking smug. That is where we are at this point.  

Dick Grayson is indeed Golden boy.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't think everything needs explained, but the origin of your superhero identity is important enough that it needs to be explained, imo. That deserves a story, especially when the iconic story in which you first appear as Nightwing is no longer canon. There is a big gap there.


I don't know where or why this conversation started, but I agree here. I really do wonder how things will go down in the Titans show which won't get into JC related things in the first season (probably... I really hope they don't, lol). 

Also, question, was Dick still only 16 when he started as Robin? I feel like that's a weird idea now that we have Teen Titans history folded in to his earlier years before he became Nightwing, and we also know he did stuff with the JL like in JL #51 before forming the team (Grayson, #8 I think it was, also made it sound like he continued to do so even afterwards). I think the New 52 said Dick was 15 when he was taken in and after months of training he became Robin, so maybe those "months of training" was really time he was Robin that was erased form his memory? I know Bleeding Cool reported on it so it may not be true, but I remember they said Alfred at some point in some Batbook mentioned Dick was around Damian's age (so 13) when he was with Bruce.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, question, was Dick still only 16 when he started as Robin? I feel like that's a weird idea now that we have Teen Titans history folded in to his earlier years before he became Nightwing, and we also know he did stuff with the JL like in JL #51 before forming the team (Grayson, #8 I think it was, also made it sound like he continued to do so even afterwards). I think the New 52 said Dick was 15 when he was taken in and after months of training he became Robin, so maybe those "months of training" was really time he was Robin that was erased form his memory? I know Bleeding Cool reported on it so it may not be true, but I remember they said Alfred at some point in some Batbook mentioned Dick was around Damian's age (so 13) when he was with Bruce.


Thats not really clear at the moment, I think we have to wait what the timeline looks like after rebirth.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't know where or why this conversation started, but I agree here. I really do wonder how things will go down in the Titans show which won't get into JC related things in the first season (probably... I really hope they don't, lol). 
> 
> Also, question, was Dick still only 16 when he started as Robin? I feel like that's a weird idea now that we have Teen Titans history folded in to his earlier years before he became Nightwing, and we also know he did stuff with the JL like in JL #51 before forming the team (Grayson, #8 I think it was, also made it sound like he continued to do so even afterwards). I think the New 52 said Dick was 15 when he was taken in and after months of training he became Robin, so maybe those "months of training" was really time he was Robin that was erased form his memory? I know Bleeding Cool reported on it so it may not be true, but I remember they said Alfred at some point in some Batbook mentioned Dick was around Damian's age (so 13) when he was with Bruce.


With the possibility of an extended timeline I think it's likely we'll probably see the Robins' careers and ages of when they started out changed to match. 

So no more "Batman training 3 16-year old Robins in consecutive years" like in the New 52.

----------


## Badou

> I don't know where or why this conversation started, but I agree here. I really do wonder how things will go down in the Titans show which won't get into JC related things in the first season (probably... I really hope they don't, lol). 
> 
> Also, question, was Dick still only 16 when he started as Robin? I feel like that's a weird idea now that we have Teen Titans history folded in to his earlier years before he became Nightwing, and we also know he did stuff with the JL like in JL #51 before forming the team (Grayson, #8 I think it was, also made it sound like he continued to do so even afterwards). I think the New 52 said Dick was 15 when he was taken in and after months of training he became Robin, so maybe those "months of training" was really time he was Robin that was erased form his memory? I know Bleeding Cool reported on it so it may not be true, but I remember they said Alfred at some point in some Batbook mentioned Dick was around Damian's age (so 13) when he was with Bruce.


Unless it has been specifically changed I think him not becoming Robin until he was 16 is still canon. It isn't like 15 is any better, but I think 16 is still what they have been working with in the current continuity. As every image of him as Robin he looks like someone who is around 16. I don't think there is an image of him as Robin where he looks anything close to what Damian looks like.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Unless it has been specifically changed I think him not becoming Robin until he was 16 is still canon. It isn't like 15 is any better, but I think 16 is still what they have been working with in the current continuity. As every image of him as Robin he looks like someone who is around 16. I don't think there is an image of him as Robin where he looks anything close to what Damian looks like.


does 15 look that different from16?

hes jsut shorter and skinnier


This is why Robin and Harley dont work, she was a grown woman when he was still a boy

----------


## Badou

He looks older and bigger in that image than he did in his origin in the New 52 when he was 16.

----------


## Godlike13

That crap with lame Shiva was so dumb. Uhg...

----------


## Frontier

> He looks older and bigger in that image than he did in his origin in the New 52 when he was 16.


I keep forgetting how ridiculous Shiva looked in the New 52  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Alycat

I too wish that design wasn't final. That entire page is full of ugly.

----------


## nightbird

I have no idea why Dick is prohibited to have an utility belt even as Robin. Where he hides all his stuff?

----------


## Aahz

> I have no idea why Dick is prohibited to have an utility belt even as Robin. Where he hides all his stuff?


Maybe in his gloves, like in his Nightwing suit? But I think is still strange that Dicks custue looks far less ike the classic costume than, Jasons, Damians and Tim Rebirth Costume.

----------


## pansy

haha Shiva is wearing an anaconda costume.

----------


## ayanestar

Brenton Thwaites is alright, I have seen him in Pirates of the Caribbean and his acting is not bad and he is good looking. He will do alright, it is actually already way more than I expected.




> Nightwing #28 preview
> http://batman-news.com/2017/08/31/ex...-nightwing-28/


I've been so busy with work I totally forgot about comics but I guess I've a good timing lol now I can read the whole story at once  :Wink: 
Also I would like to mention (again) how much I love Seeley etc. for creating Tiger. I love Dick's friendship with him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe in his gloves, like in his Nightwing suit? But I think is still strange that Dicks custue looks far less ike the classic costume than, Jasons, Damians and Tim Rebirth Costume.


well it was the prototype

----------


## Frontier

> Maybe in his gloves, like in his Nightwing suit? But I think is still strange that Dicks custue looks far less ike the classic costume than, Jasons, Damians and Tim Rebirth Costume.


I could see it being the gloves or those...pouches (?) on the side.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Godlike13

Im sorry but that meme has gotten very old, very quickly.

----------


## jbmasta

> Im sorry but that meme has gotten very old, very quickly.


Tell me about it. At least the artist didn't use the stock photo.

----------


## byrd156

> Im sorry but that meme has gotten very old, very quickly.


Nah it's fantastic.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

IMG_0098.jpg

Somewhere down the line we get Siya drawing Nightwing! Titans, Metal, Resistance whatever.

It would seem Javier also took a little vacation and who knows how long he plans on art'n it up on Nightwing. Might be time to start throwing Artist names into the universe. And I love predicting shiz. 

Dan Mora, Idan Kerbis, Kyler Clodfelter, Sajad Shah, Ray Anthony-Height, Carlo Barberi, Claire Roe, Carlos Gomez, Adelso Corona.

----------


## TheCape

> Im sorry but that meme has gotten very old, very quickly.


For not to said innacurate, being in a relationship with Dick Grayson is automatically unhealthy  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Red obin

> Attachment 54259
> 
> Somewhere down the line we get Siya drawing Nightwing! Titans, Metal, Resistance whatever.
> 
> It would seem Javier also took a little vacation and who knows how long he plans on art'n it up on Nightwing. Might be time to start throwing Artist names into the universe. And I love predicting shiz. 
> 
> Dan Mora, Idan Kerbis, Kyler Clodfelter, Sajad Shah, Ray Anthony-Height, Carlo Barberi, Claire Roe, Carlos Gomez, Adelso Corona.


I have a feeling Dan Mora is going to do some DC work soon with the younger heroes as he is titans variant cover artist nd teen titans new main cover artist. I quite like his work and his Titans covers have been really nice and clean.

I am enjoying the way nightwing alternating arcs, so i think they should keeo going on the flat styles along with the rough styles, in this cases fernandez and jung/medonca.

----------


## Red obin

Also please can we have a new nightwing variant cover artist please...

The only of Casey Jones' variant I have got are #20, #26 and pre ordered #28, only because I didn't like the primary covers and these were....bearable. #26 being the only exception, I like that. I think i just don't like his proportions and faces as that lacks nightwing's face and is more minimalist.

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 54259
> 
> Somewhere down the line we get Siya drawing Nightwing! Titans, Metal, Resistance whatever.
> 
> It would seem Javier also took a little vacation and who knows how long he plans on art'n it up on Nightwing. Might be time to start throwing Artist names into the universe. And I love predicting shiz. 
> 
> Dan Mora, Idan Kerbis, Kyler Clodfelter, Sajad Shah, Ray Anthony-Height, Carlo Barberi, Claire Roe, Carlos Gomez, Adelso Corona.


I only recognize three of the names in this list  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Red obin

> I only recognize three of the names in this list .


Beats me, I only recognise two and heard a third's name.

----------


## jbmasta

> does 15 look that different from16?
> 
> hes jsut shorter and skinnier
> 
> 
> This is why Robin and Harley dont work, she was a grown woman when he was still a boy


Seeing that musculature on a kid just seems off somehow. At best he could be late teens with a boyish face.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Seeing that musculature on a kid just seems off somehow. At best he could be late teens with a boyish face.


He was 15 when he became robin, rember new 52 gave batman a 5 year jump

Harley treated the joker aftergetting her phd so about 8 years of school

so she would be at the yonges 26 here so a 10 year gap, Its not really an issue int he future now that Dicks 23, but  Harley is like 35 danmm

----------


## Rac7d*

> Seeing that musculature on a kid just seems off somehow. At best he could be late teens with a boyish face.



10  year old damian its the artist interp

----------


## DragonPiece

So..Dick and Helena...how do you guys feel about that?

----------


## Godlike13

Helena's cool.

----------


## Alycat

> So..Dick and Helena...how do you guys feel about that?


I wouldn't mind it. But it's pointless until writers move away from muh Babs and childhood romance.All of the time.

----------


## jbmasta

> 10  year old damian its the artist interp


With Damian it's not as pronounced, so while he's in great shape (he's spent his life either with the League of Assassin or with Batman, both are very active lifestyles) it's not six-pack level. Most of the Batfamily it's believable they'd be in peak condition as Bruce pruposefully trained himself that way and Dick's acrobatic background lends itself to keeping physically fit. Just being an active member of the Batfamily is enough exercise.

----------


## Vinsanity

> So..Dick and Helena...how do you guys feel about that?


Cool with it. I'm cool with Babs and Kori too.

It ain't no Bette Kane though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I wouldn't mind it. But it's pointless until writers move away from muh Babs and childhood romance.All of the time.


Well thats never gonna happen and their is no reason why it should

----------


## Rac7d*

> With Damian it's not as pronounced, so while he's in great shape (he's spent his life either with the League of Assassin or with Batman, both are very active lifestyles) it's not six-pack level. Most of the Batfamily it's believable they'd be in peak condition as Bruce pruposefully trained himself that way and Dick's acrobatic background lends itself to keeping physically fit. Just being an active member of the Batfamily is enough exercise.


but what you were trying to say is that his physique made you think he was older but that really doesnt matter at all, look at time drake in civillaism he almost as small as damian  despite his age of 17

----------


## Alycat

> Well thats never gonna happen and their is no reason why it should


It's only a problem in the comics and it should if they want me to take any of these other love interests seriously.

----------


## yohyoi

I loved the issue. The ending was a bit predictable, but a happy ending is good from time to time. Dick's life doesn't need to be full-on tragic like the rest of the Bat family.

My favorite art this issue.

In my opinion Helena and Dick are a better match than Barbara and Dick. Opposites do attract and it tends to be cute. I am waiting eagerly for Shawn and Helena to meet. I like Shawn but I think Helena is a better fit for Dick.

NightwingHuntress.JPG

----------


## Alycat

I really liked that page. Art was fantastic there.

----------


## pansy

> I loved the issue. The ending was a bit predictable, but a happy ending is good from time to time. Dick's life doesn't need to be full-on tragic like the rest of the Bat family.
> 
> My favorite art this issue.
> 
> In my opinion Helena and Dick are a better match than Barbara and Dick. Opposites do attract and it tends to be cute. I am waiting eagerly for Shawn and Helena to meet. I like Shawn but I think Helena is a better fit for Dick.
> 
> NightwingHuntress.JPG


Helena is my favorite too.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I absolutely love that this actually happening. Idk what the ship name is (HelDick? WingHunt?), but it's what I wanted back during Grayson and even more so now, so I just hope it's at least temporarily permanent in that they're dating, and not just a one-night stand thing and Helena just leaves the book again. 

Also, the ending with Minos, *spoilers:*
I still don't know how I feel about the truth behind Minos seeing as he's pretty much dead for good and even if he came back, wouldn't be much of a villain anyways, but at least Seeley set up both Cadmus and Checkmate for this book. After Raptor, we still have Pigeon and Blockbuster to deal with in Bludhaven and now both Cadmus and Checkmate to deal with in the globe-trotting arcs. If Seeley is going to team Dick up with a Superfamily member for the Cadmus story (assuming it and Checkmate aren't just part of one story, I feel that'd be a waste of two perfectly interesting places and concepts to play with), I hope it's Kara. I just reread Robinson's DickBats era JLA run, and I miss Dick and Kara's friendship a lot now.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

I don't think they are now dating.

----------


## byrd156

> So..Dick and Helena...how do you guys feel about that?


I like it.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't think they are now dating.


they better be, tho

I've been waiting for this.

----------


## TheSupernaut

I see why many Helena fans hate this pairing. This is probably the first time she won't end up looking bad in the end.

----------


## Alycat

> I see why many Helena fans hate this pairing. This is probably the first time she won't end up looking bad in the end.


I am happy about that. No calling her a bad girl. Nobody is in a  relationship. No slut shaming. Good times.

----------


## pansy

> I am happy about that. No calling her a bad girl. Nobody is in a  relationship No slut shaming. Good times.


thanking the gods for free Shawn and brief .

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is really awesome.  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

Just finished the issue. Loved this one from start to finish.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's only a problem in the comics and it should if they want me to take any of these other love interests seriously.


love is only temp in comics if you find love for good your tory is over

----------


## RedQueen

> thanking the gods for free Shawn and brief .


it's what I'm kind of afraid of. I'd rather more build up and to shake the Shawn relationship a bit more but I'm scared we're gonna get into love triangle territory and Helena is still a guest star in the title so if anyone is gonna be made the bad guy it will be Helena. Which I don't want because I'm sick of Helena being fodder for everyone's morality lectures and being shamed for "using" dick during their one night stand.

----------


## Godlike13

Helena is not gonna be made the bad guy. I think its pretty clear its Shawn who is gonna be the bad guy. Literally.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Helena is not gonna be made the bad guy. I think its pretty clear its Shawn who is gonna be the bad guy. Literally.


This man knows what he's talking about

----------


## RedQueen

> Helena is not gonna be made the bad guy. I think its pretty clear its Shawn who is gonna be the bad guy. Literally.


I see where your coming from definitely. But the narrative has set up Shawn's character and motivations and is given much more depth with her relationship with dick recently. Not to say Helena and Dick's relationship isn't feasible, but Shawn is treated more as a starring character in the title. I still think Seeley did good with Helena but that last scene reflects the "other woman" narrative for Helena with the inclusion of Shawn of being a voyeur into the bedroom scene, with her perspective and feelings. 

like I'm just a bit apprehensive because I adore Helena and I'm sick of her being vilified for her rejecting Dick after their one stand, whether it's Dick stans shaming her or ship war nonsense. 

Add in the fact that Babs and Dick are starting to get an arc that includes romantic overtones in their past and an upcoming arc in BoP including Dick and Shawn clearly is still romantically interested in Dick...all of Dick's romantic entanglements are coming to the fore and I don't want Helena being collateral for the sake of whatever narrative it's supposed to serve for Dick.

----------


## Alycat

> I see where your coming from definitely. But the narrative has set up Shawn's character and motivations and is given much more depth with her relationship with dick recently. Not to say Helena and Dick's relationship isn't feasible, but Shawn is treated more as a starring character in the title. I still think Seeley did good with Helena but that last scene reflects the "other woman" narrative for Helena with the inclusion of Shawn of being a voyeur into the bedroom scene, with her perspective and feelings. 
> 
> like I'm just a bit apprehensive because I adore Helena and I'm sick of her being vilified for her rejecting Dick after their one stand, whether it's Dick stans shaming her or ship war nonsense. 
> 
> Add in the fact that Babs and Dick are starting to get an arc that includes romantic overtones in their past and an upcoming arc in BoP including Dick and Shawn clearly is still romantically interested in Dick...all of Dick's romantic entanglements are coming to the fore and I don't want Helena being collateral for the sake of whatever narrative it's supposed to serve for Dick.


I understand your concern because its mine as well. I do have faith in Seeley though since he's treated Helena quite well. This is the healthiest she and Dick have ever been and it would be silly to cast her in the other woman light , when the people involved aren't together at the moment. I don't expect it to last, but I also don't honestly expect the Babs thing to have an impact either.

----------


## RedQueen

> I understand your concern because its mine as well. I do have faith in Seeley though since he's treated Helena quite well. This is the healthiest she and Dick have ever been and it would be silly to cast her in the other woman light , when the people involved aren't together at the moment. I don't expect it to last, but I also don't honestly expect the Babs thing to have an impact either.


I trust Seeley enough to hope that's it's gonna play out fairly for Helena but I still worry and also I kind of wonder how it's gonna effect BoP because Babs and Helena are two thirds of the lead and anyways I hate how Barbara is written and her crappy boring love life is in her own solo and I like how BoP is free of all the baggage. So I don't want that to be literal Dick Drama affecting it majorly.

Just long term stuff I'm worried about mostly.

----------


## Godlike13

Im not sure Helena is gonna play into things anymore then what we have just seen. She has her own shit going on, and its not like she did anything wrong. Technically no one here did.

----------


## TheSupernaut

It all just reminds me of how much I miss Pre-flashpoint Helena Bertinelli.

----------


## RedQueen

> It all just reminds me of how much I miss Pre-flashpoint Helena Bertinelli.


Same I miss certain aspects of her personality. I kind of dislike how much of her character is tied to Spyral more so than her mafia heritage, which is very shallow of me, but I want more "Huntress" than "Matron". I still like Spyral tho.

----------


## Frontier

> So..Dick and Helena...how do you guys feel about that?


Well, we've been down this road before  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Not that I mind, and I guess it's nice to see all that sexual tension built up since _Grayson_ finally culminate in something serious. 



> I don't think they are now dating.


I mean, Dick and Helena are kind of perpetual in their one night stands, which is what I'm expecting this will be. 



> Helena is not gonna be made the bad guy. I think its pretty clear its Shawn who is gonna be the bad guy. Literally.


I don't think this is going to turn Shawn into "the bad guy." 

She seemed angry for a second after she saw it, but then just seemed disappointed and accepting when she flew off. I doubt it's going to make her go full-on villain again, because she realized in the issue that it's not the right thing for her, but she'll probably be less receptive to Dick's help in the next arc or at least be all business. 



> Same I miss certain aspects of her personality. I kind of dislike how much of her character is tied to Spyral more so than her mafia heritage, which is very shallow of me, but I want more "Huntress" than "Matron". I still like Spyral tho.


It's sometimes really hard trying to reconcile the two different versions of Helena Bertinelli like DC is trying to do right now. 

I also wish they'd use her faith more.

----------


## RedQueen

> It's sometimes really hard trying to reconcile the two different versions of Helena Bertinelli like DC is trying to do right now. 
> 
> I also wish they'd use her faith more.


I agree. I mean it's been a bumpy road but you can tell the people writing her give a damn. While in Nightwing she is definitely got her Matron characterization and BoP is still finding it's feet but they do appreciate her, it's gonna be sometime before the cohesion sets in. 

I always thought her relationship with her faith was always interesting and same with Daredevil. You don't get a lot of religious characters in comics so I always find it interesting how writers choose to approach it. 

Anyways I hope Gail Simone will write her again at some point. To me she gave the best well rounded and defined Helena. You really can't beat Rucka either. And damn...speaking of it makes me miss Vic Sage and in relation to that their relationship in Justice League Unlimited. And Catman. I loved Catman and Helena.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree. I mean it's been a bumpy road but you can tell the people writing her give a damn. While in Nightwing she is definitely got her Matron characterization and BoP is still finding it's feet but they do appreciate her, it's gonna be sometime before the cohesion sets in.


I think it doesn't help that _Grayson_ Helena and Post-Crisis Helena have two very distinct and different voices. 

Post-Crisis Helena was not the type to constantly call someone by their full name or be super-stoic. But she also only taught normal high school  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> I always thought her relationship with her faith was always interesting and same with Daredevil. You don't get a lot of religious characters in comics so I always find it interesting how writers choose to approach it. 
> 
> Anyways I hope Gail Simone will write her again at some point. To me she gave the best well rounded and defined Helena. You really can't beat Rucka either. And damn...speaking of it makes me miss Vic Sage and in relation to that their relationship in Justice League Unlimited. And Catman. I loved Catman and Helena.


Agreed  :Smile: .

----------


## AJpyro

Kay, so I'm about to get some rebirth comics. Is Nightwing R a good jumping on point?

----------


## Alycat

Ehh, I honestly don't miss old Helena much nor do I have faith in the Bensons to write her as anything other than the one note but inoffensive character that they've been doing. They've especially downplayed her faith quite a bit.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Kay, so I'm about to get some rebirth comics. Is Nightwing R a good jumping on point?


I think it's great and I could happily recommend it. Tim Seeley introduced a great new villain in the first arc Better than Batman

----------


## Rac7d*

its the best of rebirth like always

----------


## Vinsanity

I don't think Shawn will be made off to be the villain or a villain at all.

----------


## NaughtyJuri

Same way I feel like they shoving that Shawn girl into Dick life, such a normal boring character I want DC to Make StarFire & NightWing a couple aready they were Meant for each other, I'm really disliking all these Partner Changing just for story, if DC put Green Arrow & black canary together then  Nightwing/StarFire needs to happen aready so we can get some awesome comics of them together & maybe have a daughter named FireStar I know I'm getting ahead of myself but I want this thing to happen aready

So far I'm happy with Catwoman/batman rooftops series now I want my favorite couple in DC history have they turn, after seeing the new Teen Titan Movie, I just fell in love with them more & started to go back to read my comic collection of them

----------


## NaughtyJuri

Yes they're great, except for the stupid Shawn parts cause I'm of those Nightwing/StarFire forever types but I recommend picking them up & if I may I also recommend some of the Teen Titans Rebirth aswell either way you can't go Wrong

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/L_Strikes_art/st...37487180931073

----------


## NaughtyJuri

http://https://i.pinimg.com/original...4df4c394e9.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

> http://https://i.pinimg.com/original...4df4c394e9.jpg


Wasn't this the issue that Dick admitted he didn't love her anymore...

----------


## RedQueen

> Wasn't this the issue that Dick admitted he didn't love her anymore...


I've seen the panels but never read the actual issue itself and but I remember that it was really harsh at how final it felt. I'm a big never say never to comic relationships, so stuff like second chance romances like dickbabs, matt & elektra, rogue and gambit etc but that was very ouch and I'm not even a shipper of it. I feel like Kory got a bit done dirty by how blunt it was. 

Did they hook up at any point after that pool scene?

----------


## Frontier

> Did they hook up at any point after that pool scene?


I don't think they hooked up again (but I could totally be wrong) but there was plenty of interaction between them when Dick was Batman where it was obvious Kori still wasn't over him (especially when they were in the JLA together).

----------


## Alycat

That nonsense was done just as a final push to dump on Kory chase she wasn't designated child hood sweet heart. It was quite disappointing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I've seen the panels but never read the actual issue itself and but I remember that it was really harsh at how final it felt. I'm a big never say never to comic relationships, so stuff like second chance romances like dickbabs, matt & elektra, rogue and gambit etc but that was very ouch and I'm not even a shipper of it. I feel like Kory got a bit done dirty by how blunt it was. 
> 
> Did they hook up at any point after that pool scene?


I grew up with the 2003 cartoon, so I imagine that if I did read it, I'd come out of it really pissed off, lol. While I hate the flip flopping, will they won't they romances, I'm definitely okay with revisiting older relationships years later. At least it doesn't look to be like that in Rebirth anymore. Since the stuff with Helena will probably not last too long (I hope it does, tho), and who knows how long Shawn will actually be relevant after Rebirth, I'd be down for Dick and Kory getting together again, but I've said as much before so I'll leave it at that. 




> I don't think they hooked up again (but I could totally be wrong) but there was plenty of interaction between them when Dick was Batman where it was obvious Kori still wasn't over him (especially when they were in the JLA together).


Kory did leave literally an issue or so after that team was formed because she didn't want to be on the same team as Dick, lol. That was kinda sad, but I really liked the final team at the end of the day, so I didn't really mind it.

----------


## Godlike13

I don't think it was done to dump on her but more to give them some sense of finality so her character could move on like Nightwing had. I know many blame the fall of Dick/Kory on the rise of Dick/Babs, and certainly there are stories that contributed to this idea, but a big part of the downplaying of Dick/Kory was and is in part because of Nightwing's solo career.

----------


## TheCape

It 's only proper that i put this here.

2 separated metas Dick's bond with Tim and Damian:

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...-tim-and-dicks

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...s-relationship

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't think it was done to dump on her but more to give them some sense of finality so her character could move on like Nightwing had. I know many blame the fall of Dick/Kory on the rise of Dick/Babs, and certainly there are stories that contributed to this idea, but a big part of the downplaying of Dick/Kory was and is in part because of Nightwing's solo career.


Guys who write comic books think that a couple are interesting only if they're fighting and/or split up.  They don't get it that what's REALLY interesting is to see a couple stick it out through thick and thin--or maybe that's too much work for them.

----------


## jbmasta

> Guys who write comic books think that a couple are interesting only if they're fighting and/or split up.  They don't get it that what's REALLY interesting is to see a couple stick it out through thick and thin--or maybe that's too much work for them.


Maybe it's easier to write thrill of the chase for the romantic partner, or it opens the character up for new love interests without being unfaithful.

It happened years ago with Bernice Summerfield. The New Adventures range celebrated its 50th book with her wedding to Jason Kane, only less than ten books later for them to divorce due to irreconcilable differences. Virgin Publishing had just lost the Doctor Who licence at that point and were planning out a Benny focused range of books. So naturally she had to be single.

Spider-Man is another example. One More Day. Need I say more?

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe it's easier to write thrill of the chase for the romantic partner, or it opens the character up for new love interests without being unfaithful.
> 
> It happened years ago with Bernice Summerfield. The New Adventures range celebrated its 50th book with her wedding to Jason Kane, only less than ten books later for them to divorce due to irreconcilable differences. Virgin Publishing had just lost the Doctor Who licence at that point and were planning out a Benny focused range of books. So naturally she had to be single.
> 
> Spider-Man is another example. One More Day. Need I say more?


I've noticed that Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows has been a hit.  The Summerfield thing was to be expected when we heard about the Benny books.  And--at the time--I felt that Dick + Kory had run its course, particularly because it was during a time Marv Wolfman has admitted he suffered from writer's block.  But we're two or three reboots and 20+ years from that period.  The relationship had great chemistry until the "marriage of state" disaster, and it was all downhill from there.  It would be good to see Dick with a super-powered girlfriend he doesn't have to rescue all the time--I like the idea of him with Power Girl or Caitlyn Fairchild.

----------


## jbmasta

> I've noticed that Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows has been a hit.  The Summerfield thing was to be expected when we heard about the Benny books.  And--at the time--I felt that Dick + Kory had run its course, particularly because it was during a time Marv Wolfman has admitted he suffered from writer's block.  But we're two or three reboots and 20+ years from that period.  The relationship had great chemistry until the "marriage of state" disaster, and it was all downhill from there.  It would be good to see Dick with a super-powered girlfriend he doesn't have to rescue all the time--I like the idea of him with Power Girl or Caitlyn Fairchild.


Interestingly Dory (it's that, Kick, or Starwing, I'll go with Starwing) is the Dick Grayson relationship for the animated movies. Nightfire works as well.

Maybe Dick settling down with someone is difficult for writers because Dick is at heart one of the more nomadic DC characters. His background with Haley's Circus meant he moved around a lot growing up, so he'd need to be someone just as willing to uproot themselves when he's willing to. Could be someone from Haley's, but New 52 turned his love interest from there into a bad guy.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Interestingly Dory (it's that, Kick, or Starwing, I'll go with Starwing) is the Dick Grayson relationship for the animated movies. Nightfire works as well.
> 
> Maybe Dick settling down with someone is difficult for writers because Dick is at heart one of the more nomadic DC characters. His background with Haley's Circus meant he moved around a lot growing up, so he'd need to be someone just as willing to uproot themselves when he's willing to. Could be someone from Haley's, but New 52 turned his love interest from there into a bad guy.


In theory maybe, in practice he might be better off with someone that's just as inevitably chained to Gotham as he is. I'm rooting for Helena or Shawn therefore.

----------


## Robanker

> Interestingly Dory (it's that, Kick, or Starwing, I'll go with Starwing) is the Dick Grayson relationship for the animated movies. Nightfire works as well.
> 
> Maybe Dick settling down with someone is difficult for writers because Dick is at heart one of the more nomadic DC characters. His background with Haley's Circus meant he moved around a lot growing up, so he'd need to be someone just as willing to uproot themselves when he's willing to. Could be someone from Haley's, but New 52 turned his love interest from there into a bad guy.


Perhaps I'm too immature for my own good, but "DickFire" always was what I went with. I feel like giving pairings silly names helps offset how ridiculous the ship wars can get. 

Regardless, Dick settling down is harder to sell primarily because who does he settle down with? His primary love interests just don't work right now. Starfire had her prominence in the '80s onward with NTT that never fully recovered since, and Barbara hasn't really been Barbara since Burnside. Neither really reflect who he dated back in the day beyond, perhaps, a physical level. I didn't much care for Shawn, but right now Dick doesn't have a strong pairing to fall back on that doesn't rely on characterizations no longer in use.

Moreover, he's a young character and we have a few older couples dealing with long-term relationships (Bruce just proposed to Selina, you've got Arthur and Mera over in Aquaman. This isn't even bringing up Lois and Clark raising their son), so they're going to want to play the relationship drama elsewhere and Nightwing's a good a place as any.

----------


## RedQueen

Some couples I'm not fussy with, like with Dick...I'm open to new things, I liked Shawn, the Helena stuff will take time for me to adjust to because of the fandom's obsession with crucifying her as well as it better be good writing for her character. Other characters like in Aquaman...Aquaman without Mera is something I cannot fathom because to me she is just so integral to the Aquaman mythos now, she is easily a co lead and definitely one of DC's more well written and awesome characters.

But because Dick's love life is allowed to be in a state of flux, the love story that is trying to sell better be good, otherwise you get Barbara's bland dating life that deters a lot of people. And you don't want Barbara's love life writing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Some couples I'm not fussy with, like with Dick...I'm open to new things, I liked Shawn, the Helena stuff will take time for me to adjust to because of the fandom's obsession with crucifying her as well as it better be good writing for her character. Other characters like in Aquaman...Aquaman without Mera is something I cannot fathom because to me she is just so integral to the Aquaman mythos now, she is easily a co lead and definitely one of DC's more well written and awesome characters.
> 
> But because Dick's love life is allowed to be in a state of flux, the love story that is trying to sell better be good, otherwise you get Barbara's bland dating life that deters a lot of people. And you don't want Barbara's love life writing.


I agree with some of you guys on these points. I'm definitely okay with Dick dating and/or having a thing with anyone as long as it's well written. And speaking of Babs, I'm glad the new Batgirl arc, contrary to the covers and solicits, aren't going too in on the shipping and are instead showing stuff in flashbacks. ...tbh, I only brought this up to try and segue into bringing up the fact that the villain in that arc is apparently named Red Queen, but I really don't know how to do that well enough, lol. It's a pretty crazy coincidence, and I guess I'll hope the Red Queen is an interesting character for your sake.


Also, idk if it was brought up here, but the biggest argument against having Kory back with Dick again is that she'd make things too easy or something. I mean, first of all: if the threats were too small for Kory, they could just let Dick and Kory fight bigger villains instead, as if that's a bad thing. And of course, why would Kory even need to be there when Dick's dealing with stuff? She could easily have her own life, these are superheroes who don't actually have to live together, let alone in the same city, so I don't see why Dick wouldn't handle certain things on his own anyways. And lastly, Kory being around expands Dick's world further to cosmic stories, too, so I don't see I really don't see how someone could use that kinda argument for Dick and Kory being separate. I'm not saying "they're meant to be!" or "they're a better pairing than the other ones!" because I definitely am not, I'm only saying that argument holds no water.

----------


## TheCape

Dick and romance, so beatifull and so painfull at the same time, seeing that this is still up to disscussion, here is a meta on his romantic 
bond with boths Barbara and Kory:

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...ngs-about-dick
You told her about having wet dreams with another woman and she didn't hold it against you, how could you let this woman go, fail Dick, you fail

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...s-and-koriandr
C'mon Babs, you were totally dating

----------


## WonderNight

just reread batwing#24 and man I like lady vic, she's got nice potential and hope seeley brings her back in rebirth.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Some couples I'm not fussy with, like with Dick...I'm open to new things, I liked Shawn, the Helena stuff will take time for me to adjust to because of the fandom's obsession with crucifying her as well as it better be good writing for her character. Other characters like in Aquaman...Aquaman without Mera is something I cannot fathom because to me she is just so integral to the Aquaman mythos now, she is easily a co lead and definitely one of DC's more well written and awesome characters.
> 
> But because Dick's love life is allowed to be in a state of flux, the love story that is trying to sell better be good, otherwise you get Barbara's bland dating life that deters a lot of people. And you don't want Barbara's love life writing.


Does Shawn seem like she will live to see the new year
and Even Helena stright up told babs she knows Dick loves her.....

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> just reread batwing#24 and man I like lady vic, she's got nice potential and hope seeley brings her back in rebirth.


Lady Vic's my fav Nightwing villain outside of Deathstroke & now Raptor. She's been mentioned in an earlier issue. I just don't want someone else to use her and take her. I liked the idea that Nightwing dealt with like a lot of hired assassins pre-52. I too think she has some untold story potential for Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

Of all the Dixon villains, Lady Vic was the only one i wanted to see again. Not Stallion, never Stallion...

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Of all the Dixon villains, Lady Vic was the only one i wanted to see again. Not Stallion, never Stallion...


She certainly has more appeal to her than the rest of them, though I'm still not a fan.

I like Stallion, but only as he is now. Same with the rest of the Run-Offs.

----------


## bearman

Hey, with the Timeline being...revamped, somehow....
Is Dick and Donna's time leading the JLA intact?

----------


## Frontier

I wouldn't mind seeing the Double-Dare Twins back.

----------


## Badou

> Hey, with the Timeline being...revamped, somehow....
> Is Dick and Donna's time leading the JLA intact?


No, I don't think Dick and Donna were ever part of the JLA in the New 52/Rebirth timeline. It hasn't really been explained how his time as Batman fits into everything, but I'm guessing he just was the Batman in Gotham mostly.

----------


## yohyoi

I've been real busy this month.

Anyway, some covers for you.

Nightwing #29. They added a mask. "Winter is Here!" is obviously a homage to GoT.



Nightwing #30 Var Ed. Probably my favorite variant cover from him.



Nightwing #31. I can't find a bigger copy. Looks like Nightwing and Blockbuster's alliance won't be a happy one.

----------


## oasis1313

> Interestingly Dory (it's that, Kick, or Starwing, I'll go with Starwing) is the Dick Grayson relationship for the animated movies. Nightfire works as well.
> 
> Maybe Dick settling down with someone is difficult for writers because Dick is at heart one of the more nomadic DC characters. His background with Haley's Circus meant he moved around a lot growing up, so he'd need to be someone just as willing to uproot themselves when he's willing to. Could be someone from Haley's, but New 52 turned his love interest from there into a bad guy.


Dick may be nomadic, but he can work well as a romantic hero as well as an action hero.  Little girls read fairy tales with handsome princes and eventually graduate into romance novels; my grand-daughter tells me that, yes, they like strong female role models--but they want some hearts and flowers in there, too.  I like the notion of Dick dating different women--not being a cad or a love-rat--but just being a handsome, eligible young bachelor whose ideal is that Happily Ever After in whatever form it takes.  He's supposed to be--what?--about 21 or 22 now?  Why tie him down?  Let him go out with Kory, Barbara, Helena--whatever.  Archie can never decide between Betty and Veronica, but that doesn't stop them from competing--it'd be fun to see Dick getting chased by all the heroines in the DC universe.  He should be treated like the Brad Pitt of the DC Universe.

----------


## yohyoi

https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...70601945501698

----------


## yohyoi

DC Icons Nightwing Action Figure

Release Date: September 13, 2017



http://www.tfaw.com/Toys/Profile/DC-...igure___510026

----------


## Korath

> https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...70601945501698


I really hope that Stepan Sejic draws the four issues of Gotham Resistance... It's just incredibly beautiful !

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I really hope that Stepan Sejic draws the four issues of Gotham Resistance... It's just incredibly beautiful !


He's only on Suicide Squad #26, unfortunately. At least he drew the cover to Nightwing #29 (I'm not sure... but I think he may have drawn the cover to Teen Titans #12, too?).

----------


## Korath

> He's only on Suicide Squad #26, unfortunately. At least he drew the cover to Nightwing #29 (I'm not sure... but I think he may have drawn the cover to Teen Titans #12, too?).


Damn, his bearded Dick is awesome looking.

----------


## Fergus

> https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...70601945501698


This looks so much fun. So is this a page from? SS, TT, GA or Nightwing?

----------


## L.H.

> This looks so much fun. So is this a page from? SS, TT, GA or Nightwing?


I guess Suicide Squad #26

----------


## shadowsgirl

Graysoncam? Really Barbara? Is this even legal?

----------


## Caivu

I don't know if that would even crack the top 10 shadiest things Oracle did.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> I really hope that Stepan Sejic draws the four issues of Gotham Resistance... It's just incredibly beautiful !


We get Paul Pelletier on the Nightwing issue. Which I absolutely love!

----------


## L.H.

So, it's a very busy day for Nightwing:
*spoilers:*
 dressed like Batman to fool the Justice League, like a traitor to fool HIVE and like Jon Snow to join Gotham Resistance. I have few questions: if this is a Nightwing from another Multiverse, where is ours? Is he going to play a role again in Metal? And, most important, if he isn't Jon, is Damian gonna be Bran and Babs Arya?  :Smile:  
*end of spoilers*

----------


## dietrich

> So, it's a very busy day for Nightwing:
> *spoilers:*
>  dressed like Batman to fool the Justice League, like a traitor to fool HIVE and like Jon Snow to join Gotham Resistance. I have few questions: if this is a Nightwing from another Multiverse, where is ours? Is he going to play a role again in Metal? And, most important, if he isn't Jon, is Damian gonna be Bran and Babs Arya?  
> *end of spoilers*


Indeed it has. Nightwing was the best bit of metal #2 for me.
They're all our Nightwing

----------


## L.H.

> They're all our Nightwing


I mean the one in Teen Titans #12. It seems like he is coming from the Dark Multiverse. So, if I'm right and he is going to be the Nightwing of the next issue, where is the Nightwing of this Universe?
I loved him in Metal, too

----------


## Alycat

So apparently Humphries is the new writer? Him and Seeley just switched books lol.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> So apparently Humphries is the new writer? Him and Seeley just switched books lol.


Where'd you hear this?

----------


## Alycat

> Where'd you hear this?


Someone posted the leaked December solicits in the DC comics forums.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Someone posted the leaked December solicits in the DC comics forums.


Wowy. Excuse me while I go huntin

----------


## Alycat

Here is the one: "THE UNTOUCHABLE: HUNTERS!" Nightwing finally feels like he's got his life in Blüdhaven under control. But the one thing he wasn't expecting was for a case from his past in Gotham City to rear its head here-a murderer he never set eyes on, but whose unmistakable signature has arrived in his new city! How many people will die before he's stopped this time? Or worse than that...what if Dick can't stop him? Incoming creative team Sam Humphries and Bernard Chang kick off a story that will take Nightwing back to his days as Robin and force him to question his future as well!

----------


## dietrich

> I mean the one in Teen Titans #12. It seems like he is coming from the Dark Multiverse. So, if I'm right and he is going to be the Nightwing of the next issue, where is the Nightwing of this Universe?
> I loved him in Metal, too


Oh I must have missed that I just assumed it was ours in a jazzy new uniform.

----------


## Frontier

> So apparently Humphries is the new writer? Him and Seeley just switched books lol.


I don't know how to process this  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Bernard Chang is pretty solid though, last I checked.

----------


## Alycat

> I don't know how to process this .
> 
> Bernard Chang is pretty solid though, last I checked.


I don't either. I like them both as they are at the moment.

----------


## Korath

> Oh I must have missed that I just assumed it was ours in a jazzy new uniform.


Well, Snyder is definitely telling that he is our Nightwing.

----------


## dietrich

> Well, Snyder is definitely telling that he is our Nightwing.


So he is ours right? the guy at the end of TT?

----------


## Korath

That's what I understood from Snyder's interview on CBR.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Here is the one: "THE UNTOUCHABLE: HUNTERS!" Nightwing finally feels like he's got his life in Blüdhaven under control. But the one thing he wasn't expecting was for a case from his past in Gotham City to rear its head here-a murderer he never set eyes on, but whose unmistakable signature has arrived in his new city! How many people will die before he's stopped this time? Or worse than that...what if Dick can't stop him? Incoming creative team Sam Humphries and Bernard Chang kick off a story that will take Nightwing back to his days as Robin and force him to question his future as well!


Got dammit. I already went on my journey and ended up in 4chan somehow. But I love what Sam brought to the Green Lantern mythos. And I love how he wrote Jessica. Though I don't care for the new synopsis much, mainly because I want Dick's Robin days explored in a mini, I'm down with Sammy. And Bernard Chang wasn't on my artist radar, but he's solid. (I got him confused with Brian Ching and was a bit worried at first lol)

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah... idk about going back to Robin days and Gotham for Nightwing (again...), but this sounds like a good team. I mean, Humphries did amazing work with the GLs, and I guess, at the very least, we could get a sick Nightwing/Green Lanterns crossover before Rebirth ends, lol. 

Bernard Chang is indeed a good artist, so let's how this all turns out...

----------


## Badou

Not the biggest fan of Sam Humphries going off his Marvel work. Did not like a lot of the stuff he did there. I haven't read any of his DC stuff though. Bernard Chang is okay. Though the idea of more stories where we are forced to look at Dick horrible New 52/Rebirth Robin costume feels me with annoyance and frustration. Seeley has a good run and it is sad to see that end.

----------


## L.H.

> That's what I understood from Snyder's interview on CBR.


Do you mean today's interview? I've already read it, thanks. So I was wrong as usual, but the uniform and the solicit of #29 gave me that idea.

----------


## yohyoi

LOL. Seeley and Humphries switched books. I thought Humphries will write a Shazam book, but he did say...

Attachment 54701

Dick confirmed one of the greatest DCU characters EVER. (Mr. Humphries, Imma let you finish but Dick is the greatest.)

Anyway, Dick Robin stories are NEEDED. He is the most well known and influential Robin and sidekick of all time, the lack of modern Dick Robin comic stories is a surprise. I remember watching Dick Robin in the cartoons as a kid and looking for ongoing or recent comics involving him. Sadly, there were a few and it's mostly Year One books. He has grown up and unlike Batman who was updated to the modern era in comics, Dick Robin was mostly stuck in the Golden and Silver ages.

I have a lot of thoughts on the modernization of Robin actually. Example of those are the Rise and Downfall of Tim Drake, and the Birth of a New Kind of Robin: Damian Wayne. Robin is in my opinion one of the most, if not the most, complex and rich legacies in fiction. Like how Batman became a different symbol for different groups and time periods, Robin reflected the evolution of comics, especially sidekicks, and the readers of its' time.

----------


## yohyoi

Also, Titans wasn't bad this week. Thankfully they did not make Dick OOC for the sake of drama. Dick and Wally's friendship was awesome too. Poor Wally though, he deserves better than what DC is doing to him right now.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans was pretty bad. Nightwing got it almost as bad as Wally. He got his ass kicked and was killed by Mal Duncan wearing his own gear lol, and the whole traitor thing was just a whole lot of convoluted nothing. I'm at the point that Nightwing needs to gtfo of that book till the TV show comes around. It's completely counterproductive to what they want to do with the Titans outside of comics.

----------


## Alycat

Nah Titans  was still lame, although maybe more for Wally than Dick this time.

----------


## Godlike13

Wally died saving Dick, while Dick was killed and needed to be saved because he just apparently sucks at what he does. And this isn't just a one time thing. In pretty much every single big battle in Titans Dick has gotten his ass handed to him and has needed to be saved. First by his doppelgänger, then by Hive, and now by Mal Duncan. It's just comical at this point. DC needs to get him the hell out of that book. He's continually portrayed as a liability and a hindrance, and its very clear that the writer has no story for him there.

----------


## Se7en

It's just typical Titans treatment for Nightwing. Nothing has changed.

----------


## RedQueen

Is Titans worth getting back into? I want to because the Wally and Rebirth stuff is gonna build up at some point but idk if I can be bothered with seeing at the reception of it. 


Just in general, not to do with with writing quality, do we prefer Dick in the Titans mythos where he's the leader of a team and goes on more extravagant (so to speak) missions or more in his own territory in Bludhaven and the story has a more focused quality on the character. I've seen people call the Bludhaven status quo outdated, but I really like his Bludhaven adventures and don't think it's outmoded in any way as long as the writer has a clear vision for him.

----------


## Alycat

> Is Titans worth getting back into? I want to because the Wally and Rebirth stuff is gonna build up at some point but idk if I can be bothered with seeing at the reception of it. 
> 
> 
> Just in general, not to do with with writing quality, do we prefer Dick in the Titans mythos where he's the leader of a team and goes on more extravagant (so to speak) missions or more in his own territory in Bludhaven and the story has a more focused quality on the character. I've seen people call the Bludhaven status quo outdated, but I really like his Bludhaven adventures and don't think it's outmoded in any way as long as the writer has a clear vision for him.


No. It is not worth it at all.  DC seems determined to make me hate both of those options, but that's an interesting question.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is Titans worth getting back into? I want to because the Wally and Rebirth stuff is gonna build up at some point but idk if I can be bothered with seeing at the reception of it.


Nope. I dropped this one after the first arc so you can take this with a grain of salt if you want but I found it to be as dull as dirt with terrible art and I like this group of characters. Nothing I've seen or heard about it since has made me feel like trying it again.

----------


## RedQueen

Hmmm, that makes me disappointed. DC has found little success with TT and just Titans since New 52. I wonder if they still had all the histories in tact it will make for deeper potential. Still fuming they kept the New 52 Donna origin. The one about getting shipwrecked or something on Themyscira they inserted into the memories would have been such an easier and better origin.

----------


## nightbird

http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2017/09/...-action-movie/




> “I’m a big comic book fan, and being able to do the story of Nightwing, to do a Dick Grayson story, which is a character that every single person in the world knows, but has never really had a lot of screentime. They make a billion Spider-Man movies and a lot of Batman movies, and they’ve tried The Hulk. When they were making the Tim Burton movies, they were always like, ‘Oh, maybe we’ll do Robin in this now. Maybe we’ll save Robin for Returns. Nope, we’ll save it for the next one.’ With Christopher Nolan, people were like, ‘Is he gonna do Robin?’ When they made Batman v Superman, they were talking about it. I’m a big fan of underdog stories, and he is one of the biggest underdog stories in comics. And he’s a character that I grew up with. I like the arc.”
> 
> “You always thought Robin was the dork and were like, ‘I don’t want to be like Robin. I don’t want to play with Robin. I wanna play Batman.’ But Robin was there as a window character for little kids like me to understand Batman’s world and see into Batman’s world. There’s no other character in comics that went through this real-time transition. Every other character lives in a rough version of the age that they’re in. Very few characters actually grow up in the comics and become something else, and go from being a boy to being an adult, and have their own life and become their own thing.”
> 
> “It’s gonna be a fucking badass action movie with a lot of heart and emotion. It’s gonna be a crazy, fun ride. Whoever gets cast as Nightwing, and any of the other actors around, are gonna go through a fucking boot camp experience because it’s gonna be a lot. I’m not gonna do a lot of CG. It’s gonna be all real shit. It’s gonna be real stuntwork, and they’re gonna need to do all of the stuff on camera and do it credibly. For the cast and the crew, it’s gonna be a visceral experience, and for the audience. It’s not gonna be like a lot of these movies where there’s a lot of CG and flying, and things like that. Everything he does is gonna have to be real. His superpower is being really fucking good, as a human being, at fighting and gymnastics and shit like that, so you’re gonna see that on screen. It’s gonna be fun!”


http://collider.com/nightwing-movie-...tical-effects/

----------


## RedQueen

> http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2017/09/...-action-movie/
> 
> 
> 
> http://collider.com/nightwing-movie-...tical-effects/


I'm super happy someone super passionate about Dick is doing the movie.

----------


## Badou

I still have my doubts the Nightwing movie actually happens, but we will see. It will probably come down to how the character is received in the Batgirl movie, but I still think they are in a tough spot because they skipped over all the foundational Roibn stuff which might have been used to changed the public's perception of Robin as a character. 




> Is Titans worth getting back into? I want to because the Wally and Rebirth stuff is gonna build up at some point but idk if I can be bothered with seeing at the reception of it. 
> 
> 
> Just in general, not to do with with writing quality, do we prefer Dick in the Titans mythos where he's the leader of a team and goes on more extravagant (so to speak) missions or more in his own territory in Bludhaven and the story has a more focused quality on the character. I've seen people call the Bludhaven status quo outdated, but I really like his Bludhaven adventures and don't think it's outmoded in any way as long as the writer has a clear vision for him.


Choosing between Titans stories or Bludhaven stories for Dick is like choosing between stubbing your toe or getting your finger caught in a drawer. Neither are very good options for the character.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Choosing between Titans stories or Bludhaven stories for Dick is like choosing between stubbing your toe or getting your finger caught in a drawer. Neither are very good options for the character.


Pretty much. Both of those only force the character to remain mired in the past and do not allow for the character to continue to move forward. Now we are stuck with both Titans and Bludhaven due to fans nostalgia for what was instead of looking forward to what could be. I love the character but I've had enough of the same old song and dance writers put him through when he's Nightwing. It's become uninteresting to me at this point.

----------


## Alycat

For those of us forcing ourselves to watch the future Titans show, we'll be getting both at the same time. How exciting!

----------


## TheCape

> Choosing between Titans stories or Bludhaven stories for Dick is like choosing between stubbing your toe or getting your finger caught in a drawer. Neither are very good options for the character.


Meh, i'm not a fan of Seely's run with Dick, but frankly his stuff with Bludhaven is, at worst, unremarkable. Titans go for the same boat for me.

----------


## Godlike13

The current Bludhaven stuff is light years better then the current Titans stuff for Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nah Titans  was still lame, although maybe more for Wally than Dick this time.


Would A flash Nightwing book sell?

----------


## Frontier

> Just in general, not to do with with writing quality, do we prefer Dick in the Titans mythos where he's the leader of a team and goes on more extravagant (so to speak) missions or more in his own territory in Bludhaven and the story has a more focused quality on the character. I've seen people call the Bludhaven status quo outdated, but I really like his Bludhaven adventures and don't think it's outmoded in any way as long as the writer has a clear vision for him.


I like both  :Smile: .

Of course, I'm also a fan of Bludhaven  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WonderNight

> I like both .
> 
> Of course, I'm also a fan of Bludhaven .


well at least bludhaven got him from up under batdaddy and overcrowded gotham.

----------


## dietrich

> Would A flash Nightwing book sell?


Is that his winter Nightwing costume?

----------


## dietrich

> http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2017/09/...-action-movie/
> 
> 
> 
> http://collider.com/nightwing-movie-...tical-effects/


I'm soooooo on board for this but then I would have been on board for anything remotely connected with Dick Grayson.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm excited for Nightwing #29. Metal has been great so far. Hopefully Seeley and the guest artist do another solid issue for the event.

Metal #2 brought back my nostalgia for Dick Batman. Damn, I miss witty and smiling Batman.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm cautious about the DCEU Nightwing movie. WB doesn't have a long term plan. I'm not expecting anything until production starts. Who knows, with how many movies WB announce per month, it may be replaced by a Harley solo movie.

----------


## ayanestar

Well I just heard about the news of Sam Humphries taking over for Nightwing. I'm not sure how much I like this but I'm glad Seeley gets to do something more interesting with Green Lanterns. I have the feeling he will get more freedom on that title. Anyway I'm not exactly the biggest fan of Sam's work but I guess I'll give it a try.

----------


## yohyoi

EXCLUSIVE: Humphries, Chang Take Over Nightwing

http://www.cbr.com/exclusive-sam-hum...R-TW&view=list

New facts:
Tweet.JPG
This meant Dick.

There will be flashbacks to Dick's time as Robin and a student in Hudson University.

There will be a new villain for Dick's rogues gallery.

Humphries will expand on Seeley's Bludhaven and supporting cast.

The run/first tpb will be called *Nightwing: The Untouchable*.

Edit: (I thought it was Chang's.) Putri's art reminds me of Marcus To's. Very pretty with an anime aesthetic.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> EXCLUSIVE: Humphries, Chang Take Over Nightwing
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/exclusive-sam-hum...R-TW&view=list
> 
> New facts:
> Tweet.JPG
> This meant Dick.
> 
> There will be flashbacks to Dick's time as Robin and a student in Hudson University.
> ...


I originally thought the villain was going to be "The Untouchable," but if the idea is that the Untouchable person is Dick, well, damn. And plus, Hudson University in a modern setting? I'm definitely in for this, and the fact that he wants to keep Seeley's work on the character genuinely canon, is nice. He doesn't need to focus on the Run-Offs, but it'd be nice if they still showed up, they were being built up pretty well (well, mostly Mouse and, obviously, Shawn). I appreciate that he's also on the rogues gallery grind, we're gonna need really cool villains for this to work. I believe in Humphries on this, since he seems genuinely excited for this and he did some amazing work on GLs, so I'm definitely cheering him on. I'll miss Seeley a lot, though. 

On a side note, if we really want Dick's rogues to matter, more than reusing old ones, we really need them to appear in animation alongside Dick to get them to stick. Like a Nightwing animated series adapting Seeley's, and later Humphries', run is something we need more than ever, imo. I'm gonna be disappointed if Raptor and others are forgotten a few years from now. It already feels like people are forgetting Dick was Batman and a superspy, smh.

----------


## Frontier

Dick at college might be fun to read again  :Wink: .

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Dick at college might be fun to read again .


It's like a forgotten era of stories (I mean, I've never read them and I have no idea how long that direction lasted for him before he had to drop out), definitely interested in seeing that adapted to our time, lol. It's gonna be fun to see, especially since I'm currently 20, so a year younger than Dick allegedly is right now, and I'm a 3rd year university student. This could end up the most I'll ever relate to Dick as a character. 

Also, Humphries and Chang are repping our boy already. I think this might be the most outwardly excited I've seen two creators be about taking over a book from someone else, lol.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEVmb4H8mq/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEfDgaARVN/

----------


## Badou

Humphries Uncanny X-Force was really bad. Didn't like his Star-Lord ether. So my expectations for Nightwing are super low based of my past experiences with Humphries, and the setup doesn't fill me with much confidence. I'm tired of seeing his New 52 Robin costume, I never cared about Hudson University, I'm kind of sick of new rogues, and my feelings about Bludhaven still haven't changed. I'll give it a shot at least. With Seeley gone I do wonder if the globetrotting stories are gone too. 

Honestly, it is what it is. I'm a at least glad Seeley got out and will probably have more freedom to write the kind of stories he wants in GL instead of being forced to write certain things DC wants for Nightwing. I wish him the best. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Seeley not enjoying writing Bludhaven stuff is what made him want to leave. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they even try and make Dick a cop again in this run and dredge up more "nostalgia" for these Bludhaven stories.

----------


## yohyoi

> It's like a forgotten era of stories (I mean, I've never read them and I have no idea how long that direction lasted for him before he had to drop out), definitely interested in seeing that adapted to our time, lol. It's gonna be fun to see, especially since I'm currently 20, so a year younger than Dick allegedly is right now, and I'm a 3rd year university student. This could end up the most I'll ever relate to Dick as a character. 
> 
> Also, Humphries and Chang are repping our boy already. I think this might be the most outwardly excited I've seen two creators be about taking over a book from someone else, lol.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEVmb4H8mq/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZEfDgaARVN/


This means they will most likely stay until the end of Doomsday Clock in October 2018. It's a full creative team change: writer, penciller and colorist. That is maximum 21 issues of Nightwing, but it's most likely 13-16. I don't see Nightwing double shipping for that long, unless Metal and creative team change gives it a large sale boost. But 13-16 issues is enough for a great run.

I will miss Seeley too, but Humphries and the team looks excited. I want to see what they got.

----------


## ayanestar

I don't get why anyone would want to bring the Hudson University back? It's not like it played an important role in his life. Dick is not someone who has a "normal" life and any attempt to make him do anything normal failed. I seriously have no idea what they want to do with it. If they want someone relatable in the Batfamily it's time to get the original Tim Drake back and to give him his own solo. In the end we will end up getting a Burnside 2.0 lol

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't get why anyone would want to bring the Hudson University back? It's not like it played an important role in his life. Dick is not someone who has a "normal" life and any attempt to make him do anything normal failed. I seriously have no idea what they want to do with it. If they want someone relatable in the Batfamily it's time to get the original Tim Drake back and to give him his own solo. In the end we will end up getting a Burnside 2.0 lol


...what? It's a flashback, so it won't be Burnside 2.0, lol.

----------


## Pohzee

Not stoked that the Runoffs will be sticking around, but I love that Humphries is mining Hudson U. It's an overlooked part of Dick's history.

----------


## Pohzee

> I don't get why anyone would want to bring the Hudson University back? It's not like it played an important role in his life. Dick is not someone who has a "normal" life and any attempt to make him do anything normal failed. I seriously have no idea what they want to do with it. If they want someone relatable in the Batfamily it's time to get the original Tim Drake back and to give him his own solo. In the end we will end up getting a Burnside 2.0 lol


Conversely, I think that Dick trying and failing to juggle superheroics and normal life is what makes it so interesting. Not only was it the first time that this was idea was explored with Dick in any meanful way, but the fact that the ramifications were so relatable made it resonate more than his whole life getting turned upside down by X supervillain. The consequences fell entirely on his shoulders.

----------


## Alycat

I don't care about Bludhaven. I wanna know if we are keeping the non Bludhaven good stuff. Also how old is Dick suppose to be anymore?

----------


## Caivu

New Order #5 cover by Trevor McCarthy:

IMG_20170915_173216.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't get why anyone would want to bring the Hudson University back? It's not like it played an important role in his life. Dick is not someone who has a "normal" life and any attempt to make him do anything normal failed. I seriously have no idea what they want to do with it. If they want someone relatable in the Batfamily it's time to get the original Tim Drake back and to give him his own solo. In the end we will end up getting a Burnside 2.0 lol


I think Dick should go back to Hudson U and graduate early with HONORS, show up to take the tests and whomp on bad guys the rest of time.  Could we say that Dick Grayson doesn't know criminal law as well as any prosecuting or defense attorney?  He's spent his entire life building and taking down cases against criminals.  He should be able to go take the legal Bar exam without even having to study.  I am so SICK of "He so stoopid he couldn't git an edukayshun.  He a loozer.  He got fired by Batman kuz he couldn't cut it."  I HATE that Dick Grayson is CONSTANTLY made to look like a loser.  Why rehash old stuff just to make it turn out the same way--it's the proverbial dog eating its own vomit.  

We note that Editorial Darling Timmy Wimmy is being returned to the orgin CAREFULLY CRAFTED by Wolfman and Perez.  However, Dick remains saddled with the vicious Max Allen Collins after-thought millstone that undid all the work Wolfman and Perez did to bring him from boy to his own man.  Many years ago, I confronted Denny O'Neil TO HIS FACE about it and asked, "As Editor, how could you let that happen?"  He answered me directly:  "I didn't notice--I had so many other responsibilities at the time.  Max didn't clear it with me first and I had a deadline and got blindsided."  So this BLUNDER will hang around Dick Grayson's neck forever and he is DENIED the intelligence he possessed before Editorial Darling Timmy Wimmy came on the scene.  Dick Grayson was fraggin' LOBOTOMIZED  as a character so that Timmy Wimmy Poo could look better in comparison.  Excuse the rant, but I've been right at ringside for Dick Grayson and read every word about him since 1959.  No, don't bring Hudson U back unless the outcome is DIFFERENT.  GRRRRR !!!!!!!

----------


## ayanestar

> ...what? It's a flashback, so it won't be Burnside 2.0, lol.


I'm doubting the whole decision to bring back something as unnecessary as the Hudson University. Flashback or not I couldn't care less about it. Also it is too early to say they won't try a Burnside 2.0 with Dick lol I have no faith in DC.

----------


## dan12456

Very excited for this. While I loved Seeley's run Humphries Green Lanterns is imo better than anything I've read by Seeley.
He's excellent at character first writing and mixing character growth, superhero action and exploring the hero's normal life.

----------


## Alycat

Humphries GL is also so far the only good thing he's ever written imo, so Imma stay cautious. It wasn't Higgins at least.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't care about Bludhaven. I wanna know if we are keeping the non Bludhaven good stuff. Also how old is Dick suppose to be anymore?


He is 23 going on 24


Damian is 13

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> 


Where's this from? Looks cool.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Ooh! Nice  :Cool: .

Someone show this to DC  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## yohyoi

> I don't get why anyone would want to bring the Hudson University back? It's not like it played an important role in his life. Dick is not someone who has a "normal" life and any attempt to make him do anything normal failed. I seriously have no idea what they want to do with it. If they want someone relatable in the Batfamily it's time to get the original Tim Drake back and to give him his own solo. In the end we will end up getting a Burnside 2.0 lol


The New52 Tim is no longer relatable and Tim was only relatable in his Robin run. His Red Robin is relatable if you are conspiracy theorist who have an obsession with Batman. Making him Tony Stark-lite in the New52 threw any relatabilty he has left.

I'm gonna argue Dick is still one of the most relatable in the Bat family. Unlike the rest of the family, he is beloved by the rest of the DCU. He is friendly and charming. He is not known for his crazy skills in intellect or martial arts, but on his people skills. He had jobs and an apartment. He had both superhero friends and non-superhero friends. He does and act what any young adult would do: watch stupid tv series, looking for a job, date with people, have relationship problems, etc.

Dick also had numerous "normal" life. He was a cop in Bludhaven. He also worked and lived in New York and Chicago. In the present Bludhaven, he has an apartment, works a job and have relationship problems. Dick failing to make his "normal life" last is more of the nature of comic books. *Dick won't permanently have a "normal" life because comics need a status quo change to keep readers' interest. If Dick had a perfect "normal" life, we will be so bored and drop the book altogether.* If you want to read Dick or any Bat family "normal" life, read Tumblr or fanfictions, then you will realize how boring and unusual it is.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #35 cover by Yasmine Putri. I thought it was Chang at first but I was wrong. Putri's art reminds me of To's.

I also want to see what art style Chang will use. Since Nightwing is bi-monthly, he will probably not follow his super detailed Batman Beyond art.

----------


## Aahz

> I think Dick should go back to Hudson U and graduate early with HONORS, show up to take the tests and whomp on bad guys the rest of time.  Could we say that Dick Grayson doesn't know criminal law as well as any prosecuting or defense attorney?  He's spent his entire life building and taking down cases against criminals.  He should be able to go take the legal Bar exam without even having to study.  I am so SICK of "He so stoopid he couldn't git an edukayshun.  He a loozer.  He got fired by Batman kuz he couldn't cut it."  I HATE that Dick Grayson is CONSTANTLY made to look like a loser.  Why rehash old stuff just to make it turn out the same way--it's the proverbial dog eating its own vomit.  
> 
> We note that Editorial Darling Timmy Wimmy is being returned to the orgin CAREFULLY CRAFTED by Wolfman and Perez.  However, Dick remains saddled with the vicious Max Allen Collins after-thought millstone that undid all the work Wolfman and Perez did to bring him from boy to his own man.  Many years ago, I confronted Denny O'Neil TO HIS FACE about it and asked, "As Editor, how could you let that happen?"  He answered me directly:  "I didn't notice--I had so many other responsibilities at the time.  Max didn't clear it with me first and I had a deadline and got blindsided."  So this BLUNDER will hang around Dick Grayson's neck forever and he is DENIED the intelligence he possessed before Editorial Darling Timmy Wimmy came on the scene.  Dick Grayson was fraggin' LOBOTOMIZED  as a character so that Timmy Wimmy Poo could look better in comparison.  Excuse the rant, but I've been right at ringside for Dick Grayson and read every word about him since 1959.  No, don't bring Hudson U back unless the outcome is DIFFERENT.  GRRRRR !!!!!!!


What does Hudson University has to do with it? He dropped out long before the New Teen Titans (and iirc even attended Gotham University for some time in between).

----------


## Avi

Hudson U is an interesting choice and Humphries did a good job with GL. I hope we will still see a lot of globe trotting and what about a an Issue or two-parter with Simon and Jessica? That would be great.




> New Order #5 cover by Trevor McCarthy:
> 
> Attachment 54793


Looks cool but I'm still not sold on this.

----------


## legion_quest

Oh god no. Humphries is easily one of the my least favourite writers of the current era. 

His Star Lord was insultingly atrocious and he totally blew Hickman's set up in the Ultimate Universe. He's just so bad. 

This is awful news. Awful, awful news!

----------


## adrikito

> New Order #5 cover by Trevor McCarthy:
> 
> Attachment 54793


WOW... I like Superman Style.

----------


## adrikito

> EXCLUSIVE: Humphries, Chang Take Over Nightwing
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/exclusive-sam-hum...R-TW&view=list
> 
> New facts:
> Attachment 54763
> This meant Dick.
> 
> There will be flashbacks to Dick's time as Robin and a student in Hudson University.
> ...


GOOD.. I like that of *Crazy Ideas & Big Street-Level Action'*.. Is like Priest ideas for JL.. I think that this will be good.

----------


## Ivy_b

I don't think I want to read the whole 'Dark Nights Metal' event, can someone tell me the issues Dick shows up in, so I can read only them? Can I understand it enough so far, without reading it all?

----------


## Aioros22

Nigthwing the untouchable. 

Absolutely nothing can go wrong from here.

----------


## Badou

> I don't think I want to read the whole 'Dark Nights Metal' event, can someone tell me the issues Dick shows up in, so I can read only them? Can I understand it enough so far, without reading it all?


He appeared in the previous Metal issue, #2 I think, but it was just a small cameo. I don't expect Dick to be involved much in the main event. It is more of a Justice League story so Dick will be sitting it out. He will mostly be in the Gotham Resistance tie in mini that takes place in Gotham during the event that is spread across the Teen Titans #12, Nightwing #29, Suicide Squad #26, and Green Arrow I think, but that is more of its own stand alone story and probably not that connected to the Metal event.

----------


## Fergus

> New Order #5 cover by Trevor McCarthy:
> 
> Attachment 54793


So why is Superman carrying WW's shield and sword? This dude needs to just give it a rest 1st the Hunter Prince bait now this.
Not happy about the change of writer on Nightwing. Does anyone know is it a contract thing or what? and they couldn't give us Priest.

----------


## Godlike13

I think they probably just want to change things up. Seeley's been on the character for a while, and while it was bimonthly he still has over two years worth of issues on Nightwing alone. I don't really have an opinion on Humphries. I read some of his Marvel work and thought it was just ok, but ive heard good things about his GL run. Wonder if its going to continue to be bimonthly though.

----------


## Fergus

> I think they probably just want to change things up. Seeley's been on the character for a while, and while it was bimonthly he still has over two years worth of issues on Nightwing alone. I don't really have an opinion on Humphries. I read some of his Marvel work and thought it was just ok, but ive heard good things about his GL run. Wonder if its going to continue to be bimonthly though.


I really like Seeley. He had such a respect and understanding for the character that I dug. He is a fan who does get too much into the fanboying like some other bat writers I could mention.

I also love everything he has been doing with Dick and all his interviews.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, i like Seeley too. Ill remember his time on the character fondly, and im still looking forward to the return of Raptor arc.

----------


## InanimateCrbnRod

I'm also super bummed that it seems like Javier Fernandez and Chris Sotomayer are leaving as well, I thought they were a great fit for the character

----------


## byrd156

> EXCLUSIVE: Humphries, Chang Take Over Nightwing
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/exclusive-sam-hum...R-TW&view=list
> 
> New facts:
> Attachment 54763
> This meant Dick.
> 
> There will be flashbacks to Dick's time as Robin and a student in Hudson University.
> ...


I'm very excited for this change, Dick's history has been so vague since the reboot and some solid ground would be refreshing. Since the reboot DC has kept trying to add more major story changes to Dick's history, he doesn't need things like the Talons or major focus on his Romani past. Dick doesn't become the character we love until he has become Robin and starts growing as a character through his time with Batman, the Teen Titans, and through his own solo adventures of him trying to figure out where his place is. 

Flashing back to Hudson University and Dick's time as Robin is one of the most exciting things I have heard in awhile for Dick. It's so simple but holds so much story potential. I wonder if he has become Nightwing yet while in college, this might finally be the answer to how Dick actually changed identities and might be an interesting way to reestablish his relationship with Tim since he should hopefully be back to normal after Doomsday Clock. I'm glad that there is talk of expanding Dick's rogues gallery, he really has momentum right now with the villains and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. Pretty soon I think we could see a nice rounded gallery that other writers will be able to pick from that have a good connection to Dick.

----------


## byrd156

> So why is Superman carrying WW's shield and sword? This dude needs to just give it a rest 1st the Hunter Prince bait now this.
> Not happy about the change of writer on Nightwing. Does anyone know is it a contract thing or what? and they couldn't give us Priest.


I'm assuming cause she's probably dead and Supes doesn't have powers anymore. Though it looks like he has a robot arm.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't think I want to read the whole 'Dark Nights Metal' event, can someone tell me the issues Dick shows up in, so I can read only them? Can I understand it enough so far, without reading it all?


I do this all the time,those crossovers think they are slick trying to get me to buy everything
He appeared at the end of the last teen titans issue and will be in the upcoming Suicde squad and green arrow tie ins
the next tie is in his own series

----------


## Ivy_b

> I do this all the time,those crossovers think they are slick trying to get me to buy everything
> He appeared at the end of the last teen titans issue and will be in the upcoming Suicde squad and green arrow tie ins
> the next tie is in his own series


Thanks! I'll check out Teen Titans first, I know he has a mini-tie in with Green Arrow/Harley Quinn/etc, so I was going to be on the lookout for that, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss any other appearance of his. I definitely am not buying that many comics when I'm not interested in reading most of these characters and don't know if this event is worth it yet or not.

----------


## Ivy_b

> He appeared in the previous Metal issue, #2 I think, but it was just a small cameo. I don't expect Dick to be involved much in the main event. It is more of a Justice League story so Dick will be sitting it out. He will mostly be in the Gotham Resistance tie in mini that takes place in Gotham during the event that is spread across the Teen Titans #12, Nightwing #29, Suicide Squad #26, and Green Arrow I think, but that is more of its own stand alone story and probably not that connected to the Metal event.


Thanks! If it's just a cameo, I don't think I'll bother with Metal #2, I'll go and read Teen Titans 12 to start off their tie in arc.

----------


## TheCape

> What does Hudson University has to do with it? He dropped out long before the New Teen Titans (and iirc even attended Gotham University for some time in between)


I migth be wrong, but i don't remenber any point of pre-52 continuity, when Dick's intelligence was downplayed in favor of Tim (at least in his own solo), even in his RR solo when he was bordering god of prep territory.

----------


## OversizedLoad

NIGHTWING #34

Written by Tim Seeley, art and cover by Javier Fernandez, variant cover by Casey Jones.
"Raptor's Revenge" finale. With Nightwing injured, Raptor attempts to turn the citizens of BlÃ¼dhaven into monsters. It will take everything Nightwing has to stop Raptor. Will his rocky alliance with Blockbuster stand long enough to take down Raptor, or will Nightwing be forced to take down his two greatest foes alone?

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Dec. 6. 



ntw-NO-5.jpg
NIGHTWING: THE NEW ORDER #5 

Written by Kyle Higgins, art and cover by Trevor McCarthy.
After a stunning revelation about the nature of Jake's powers, the former Titans head to Metropolis to join forces with the one person who they believe they can restore the world's superpowers -- the depowered Superman! Caught between his old friends and the new order he created, Dick Grayson refuses to let his son become a weapon for either side...but is it even his choice anymore? How far will Dick go to protect his son?

32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Dec. 27.


ntw35.jpg

NIGHTWING #35 

Written by Sam Humphries, art by Bernard Chang, cover by Yasmine Putri, variant cover by Casey Jones.
"The Untouchable: Hunters!" Nightwing finally feels like he's got his life in BlÃ¼dhaven under control. But the one thing he wasn't expecting was for a case from his past in Gotham City to rear its head here -- a murderer he never set eyes on, but whose unmistakable signature has arrived in his new city! How many people will die before he's stopped this time? Or worse than that...what if Dick can't stop him? Incoming creative team Sam Humphries and Bernard Chang kick off a story that will take Nightwing back to his days as Robin and force him to question his future as well!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Dec. 20.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

29 Preview http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusi...n-nightwing-29

Man I love Paul. Definitely wouldn't complain if he was a main Nightwing artist sometime in the future. Phew

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> 29 Preview http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusi...n-nightwing-29
> 
> Man I love Paul. Definitely wouldn't complain if he was a main Nightwing artist sometime in the future. Phew


Man, I'm excited for this. I mean, I wish he had the beard here, but maybe he'll get it later on? He'll definitely have it for Suicide Squad #26. Anyways, I didn't want to spoil anything for myself, but I'm glad the Must Die arc is playing into this issue. If Metal is a Batman/Hawkman event, Gotham Resistance looks like it's pretty much a Robin/Nightwing event, which is cool. I wonder if we'll actually get to see Hurt or even Deathwing in this, or maybe in a scene or two of Metal #3 or #4.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Man, I'm excited for this. I mean, I wish he had the beard here, but maybe he'll get it later on? He'll definitely have it for Suicide Squad #26. Anyways, I didn't want to spoil anything for myself, but I'm glad the Must Die arc is playing into this issue. If Metal is a Batman/Hawkman event, Gotham Resistance looks like it's pretty much a Robin/Nightwing event, which is cool. I wonder if we'll actually get to see Hurt or even Deathwing in this, or maybe in a scene or two of Metal #3 or #4.


I know we see Nightwing some point later in Metal issues. Capullo teased Dick talking with the league already, but I do wonder how much screen time and recognition he'll get in the Metal Issues tho it's not that big of a deal. I can see a Hurt flashback maybe? Idk

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I know we see Nightwing some point later in Metal issues. Capullo teased Dick talking with the league already, but I do wonder how much screen time and recognition he'll get in the Metal Issues tho it's not that big of a deal. I can see a Hurt flashback maybe? Idk


I wonder if we'll actually get to see the Nightwing and Flamebird entities in this story. Maybe it ties in with the Dark Multiverse? Or with the Bird Tribe? Metal is just so insane, literally anything can happen in this.

----------


## yohyoi

How was the latest issue?

I'll get it later with Batman.

----------


## dietrich

> How was the latest issue?
> 
> I'll get it later with Batman.


It was really good. Lots of Fun with sweet touching moments, nice details, Nightwing taking charge, costume changes and monsters.

----------


## dietrich

> Man, I'm excited for this. I mean, I wish he had the beard here, but maybe he'll get it later on? He'll definitely have it for Suicide Squad #26. Anyways, I didn't want to spoil anything for myself, but I'm glad the Must Die arc is playing into this issue. If Metal is a Batman/Hawkman event, Gotham Resistance looks like it's pretty much a Robin/Nightwing event, which is cool. I wonder if we'll actually get to see Hurt or even Deathwing in this, or maybe in a scene or two of Metal #3 or #4.


After today's issue I feel like Gotham Resistance is actually a Nightwing event.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> After today's issue I feel like Gotham Resistance is actually a Nightwing event.


Yes! I'm about to start reading, so this is encouraging to hear first.

Edit: Humphries just confirmed on Twitter that Nightwing is still twice monthly. Assuming this run goes all the way up to Doomsday Clock's end in December of 2018, we should get a full 25 issue run.

----------


## Ivy_b

> After today's issue I feel like Gotham Resistance is actually a Nightwing event.


The Nightwing issue of it definitely felt that way, we'll see how the last issue goes, not that I mind, as a Dick fan. Aren't Babs and Dinah supposed to show up at some point? Will it be only in the Suicide Squad issue?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The Nightwing issue of it definitely felt that way, we'll see how the last issue goes, not that I mind, as a Dick fan. Aren't Babs and Dinah supposed to show up at some point? Will it be only in the Suicide Squad issue?


Probably. I imagine they'll get teased at the end the same way Nightwing was in TT #12, and in the same way we saw the Teen Titans and the Suicide Squad, we'll get the Birds of Prey, with Dinah and Ollie's relationship being the focal point for the Green Arrow issue.

----------


## Rac7d*

thease tie in piece are not making me like arrow, they should have droped in signal

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Oh also, Seeley mentioned he'd really like to write a Nightwing/Green Arrow mini one day. What would you guys like to see in something like that? For me, I'd like to see them kinda compare their viewpoints on how they feel about Robin Hood as a source of inspiration.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh also, Seeley mentioned he'd really like to write a Nightwing/Green Arrow mini one day. What would you guys like to see in something like that? For me, I'd like to see them kinda compare their viewpoints on how they feel about Robin Hood as a source of inspiration.



I waiting on that Nightwing/Flash mini we all deserve

----------


## Frontier

> Oh also, Seeley mentioned he'd really like to write a Nightwing/Green Arrow mini one day. What would you guys like to see in something like that? For me, I'd like to see them kinda compare their viewpoints on how they feel about Robin Hood as a source of inspiration.


It'd be a random team-up, since you'd expect a Dick/Roy book, but if Seeley's game, I am  :Wink: .

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## nightbird

http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2017/09/...would-write-t/




> I have it in my head actually, said Seeley. I would do a very similar thing to what we did in the first six issues of Nightwing  the Raptor story. If the story is going to have to be about a guy who was trained by Batman going off to fight on his own, then having him fight a guy who wants to be his new mentor and changes, I think thats the perfect story for it. I think the first act is, hes dealing with a villain  it could be the Court of Owls or something but it could be anything else. The threat is a threat that affects Batman and the family, because you want to have some relationship with that, then he gets corrupted, and has to fight Raptor. I think thats your three-act movie.
> 
> Seeley joked that he would used Raptor not just because I would love the sweet royalties of having a character in the movie that I made up but also because [Nightwing rogue] Blockbuster would be really hard to film, I think. The reflection that is Blockbuster, hes Hulk-powered, and having Dick fight him as an equal in a film I think would be hard to do. You could move up to it, but it would be a challenge.
> 
> Barring them using Raptor, I think you could do a very similar storyline with Deathstroke if you wanted to  although the hard thing about Deathstroke is that hes an assassin so believing that Dick would follow him is tough, Seeley said. I think making it Raptor and having him be somehow attached to Dicks past, to his mother, I think thats how you do superhero movies. I think it would work pretty well.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2017/09/...would-write-t/


Oh hey, I tweeted this at Chris McKay (and Seeley) and McKay liked it, so like, yeah, people who want to see Raptor in the movie like me and Seeley should be happy about that. He's definitely aware of Raptor.

----------


## Badou

Deathstroke would be the best villain to use in terms of it being a marquee villain that everyone knows, but I doubt DC/WB would want to use him for a Nightwing movie. They probably would rather use him for Batman, Justice League or Suicide Squad because he is a big name. Nightwing isn't exactly a property they want to tie Deathstroke too I think, but I don't know.

----------


## nightbird

> Oh hey, I tweeted this at Chris McKay (and Seeley) and McKay liked it, so like, yeah, people who want to see Raptor in the movie like me and Seeley should be happy about that. He's definitely aware of Raptor.


But Chris McKay also ones liked some tweets about making movie in "neon style Bludhaven". Tbh, I would be okay with any villain except Tony Zucco (and Deathstroke). Raptor actully really an ideal villain for the first Nightwing movie.

----------


## Frontier

> But Chris McKay also ones liked some tweets about making movie in "neon style Bludhaven". Tbh, I would be okay with any villain expect Tony Zucco (and Deathstroke). Raptor actully really an ideal villain for the first Nightwing movie.


I wouldn't mind flashbacks, ala "Robin's Reckoning," to Dick hunting for Zucco and that leading to him becoming Robin.

----------


## dietrich

I think Raptor would work great. He's pretty close to Deathstroke so that might work against him if DC is saving Slade for another project.

I quite like the new Blockbuster. He's similar to the Hulk but his regular guy persona is much more appealing and hipper than Bruce Banner's. Didn't think his BB form would be that hard to realistically CGI but what do I know. if the actor is charismatic enough in his regular form then that would hook the audience

Heck King Shark [Seeley's] would also be great. Shame it's not a Grayson movie the Skull Girls who look awesome on the big screen and different from anything seen previously

----------


## dietrich

If only DC had started their cinematic universe sooner then maybe we might alright be at the Grayson stage. Give Kingmen some competition and give audiences something different and fresh.
Instead again they're playing catch up

----------


## Rac7d*

> I wouldn't mind flashbacks, ala "Robin's Reckoning," to Dick hunting for Zucco and that leading to him becoming Robin.


so the new 52 version

----------


## byrd156

> so the new 52 version


Dick did that in the animated series, he could just make the costume and persona to take down Zucco but is inspired to still continue fight crime after that.

----------


## nightbird

> If only DC had started their cinematic universe sooner then maybe we might alright be at the Grayson stage. Give Kingmen some competition and give audiences something different and fresh.
> Instead again they're playing catch up


I still think Grayson movie could be something unique and interesting in both spy and superhero genre, even with Kingsmen around (especially after such a weak, imo, sequel). Bigger problem would be to find a right team to do a job.

----------


## nightbird

> I wouldn't mind flashbacks, ala "Robin's Reckoning," to Dick hunting for Zucco and that leading to him becoming Robin.


I'm okay with having Zucco in flashbacks (he will be in them anyway, I guess), I don't want him as main villain. 
And I don't think Slade is too big for Nightwing. At one point there will be a face off between them anyway.

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/BATCATxy/status/911241441552121856

----------


## oasis1313

> The Nightwing issue of it definitely felt that way, we'll see how the last issue goes, not that I mind, as a Dick fan. Aren't Babs and Dinah supposed to show up at some point? Will it be only in the Suicide Squad issue?


Twice monthly is encouraging.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZXkakpAZwT/

----------


## oasis1313

> https://twitter.com/BATCATxy/status/911241441552121856


This is a really nice scan.  Is it fan-art?

----------


## nightbird

> This is a really nice scan.  Is it fan-art?


yes 

10char

----------


## adrikito

*
Improbable Previews: Learn The Secret Of Dick Graysons Butt*

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...utt-batman-33/

HAHAHHAHAAA..

----------


## nightbird

https://www.jasricart.com/digital-ar...aItem-j7xllqnf

----------


## dietrich

> https://www.jasricart.com/digital-ar...aItem-j7xllqnf


This is beautiful reminds of one I saw a few days ago that had all the costumes Dick's ever worn. If I find it I'll post it.

----------


## dietrich

> *
> Improbable Previews: Learn The Secret Of Dick Grayson’s Butt*
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...utt-batman-33/
> 
> HAHAHHAHAAA..


Very funny. I don't like the art this issue though.

----------


## brucekent12

Nice artwork everyone. Good stuff!

----------


## byrd156

> https://www.jasricart.com/digital-ar...aItem-j7xllqnf


That's a perfect update for Dick's Robin costume, maybe just add the pixie boots and its perfect imo.

----------


## Frontier

Isn't that basically his Robin costume from _The Batman_? Right down to the design on the belt.

----------


## Elmo

Anyone think Dick should be Batman again? Full time?

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone think Dick should be Batman again? Full time?


I think the boat has sailed on that ever happening.

----------


## Godlike13

Not at this time, no.

----------


## oasis1313

> Anyone think Dick should be Batman again? Full time?


No.  The cape covers up his butt.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think the boat has sailed on that ever happening.


Bruce always comes back, he should claim a lazarus pit, but he would say its not natural despite going to hell to reclaim his son.
Nah Dick wont be Batman unless Bruce steps dodnw which we know doesnt happen until dick ready to retire himself

Mabey in a elsewhere, cuz i would like to see a less douchey Damian take up nightwing

----------


## dietrich

No i'd rather they just keep making Nightwing awesomer [not a real word I know]

----------


## oasis1313

> No i'd rather they just keep making Nightwing awesomer [not a real word I know]


"Awesomer" fits just fine.  As I said in another thread, I'd LOVE to get rid of the first-person POV.  Nightwing can't surprise his readers when they're right there in his skull with him.

----------


## CPSparkles

My favourites Robins Dick and damian

----------


## CPSparkles

I don't want Dick taking over for Bruce. It sends the message that Nightwing is not as important as Batman. Both are important both have cities and people to protect. I also don't think we should have anymore people putting on the cowl. Enough. Bruce Wayne is Batman except for that one time when dick had to step in because lots was at stake. And Knightfall.

Because there was a kid involved, it was for a few years and they didn't try to force Grayson into a Bruce shaped hole Morrison's worked very well but no more

----------


## WonderNight

> I don't want Dick taking over for Bruce. It sends the message that Nightwing is not as important as Batman. Both are important both have cities and people to protect. I also don't think we should have anymore people putting on the cowl. Enough. Bruce Wayne is Batman except for that one time when dick had to step in because lots was at stake. And Knightfall.
> 
> Because there was a kid involved, it was for a few years and they didn't try to force Grayson into a Bruce shaped hole Morrison's worked very well but no more


yeah dc just needs to continue to build nightwing up. one of the main things is to finally let nightwing interact more and build some relationships with dc's biggest none batfam hero's. we need alot more nightwing/superman, nightwing/wonder woman, nightwing/aquaman ect.

----------


## CPSparkles

> yeah dc just needs to continue to build nightwing up. one of the main things is to finally let nightwing interact more and build some relationships with dc's biggest none batfam hero's. we need alot more nightwing/superman, nightwing/wonder woman, nightwing/aquaman ect.


Agreed. It's great when you have leaguers saying how much they trust and respect him but I want to see in comics storyline reflecting this. Nightwing will never be free of the Batverse nor should he but just like Batman he should straddle Batverse and DCU.

It was great to have Damian guest but really I would much rather Aquaman, Diana , the green lanterns and plz keep building up his own original cast. DC can be short sighted. I know what's gone is gone but when i think how they wasted the potential of Nightwing it makes me sad.

----------


## Godlike13

Batman Reborn was not that long ago, and quite frankly i doubt they could do better at this point in time. So i don't see what would be the point. Better to continue to build the Nightwing brand and try to expand it beyond comics like they seem to want to do. It'd be nice if they would straighten some of their shit out though. Like, and i know some people are tired of people complaining about Titans, but i just don't get how on one hand they want to do this Titans TV show centered around him and on the other they let him be portrayed like he's currently is in Titans. That shit just makes no sense to me.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Batman Reborn was not that long ago, and quite frankly i doubt they could do better at this point in time. So i don't see what would be the point. Better to continue to build the Nightwing brand and try to expand it beyond comics like they seem to want to do. It'd be nice if they would straighten some of their shit out though. Like, and i know some people are tired of people complaining about Titans, but i just don't get how on one hand they want to do this Titans TV show centered around him and on the other they let him be portrayed like he's currently is in Titans. Thats shit just makes no sense to me.


I just feel like within the company things are being over looked or divisions don't try to coordinate with each other. Everyone's doing their own thing and this isn't exclusive to Titans. I don't understand why build a tv series based on a team hasn't exsited in the comics for ages. The Tv show should be the Wally, Donna, Tempst, Roy but then it's a different Wally or put the original 3 in a team with Dick.

It's almost lie DC has decided that since comics bring in the least amount of money they're not even going to try which is a shame because for someone like my self the comics are more important.

----------


## TheCape

> It's almost lie DC has decided that since comics bring in the least amount of money they're not even going to try which is a shame because for someone like my self the comics are more important


They decided that a long time ago, it just wasn't that obvious.

----------


## CPSparkles

https://youdontknowdick.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Agreed. It's great when you have leaguers saying how much they trust and respect him but I want to see in comics storyline reflecting this. Nightwing will never be free of the Batverse nor should he but just like Batman he should straddle Batverse and DCU.
> 
> It was great to have Damian guest but really I would much rather Aquaman, Diana , the green lanterns and plz keep building up his own original cast. DC can be short sighted. I know what's gone is gone but when i think how they wasted the potential of Nightwing it makes me sad.


I agree with this completely. I mean, I don't want Dick/Damian team-ups gone either, since I'd rather Damian just join Dick in Bludhavem, tbh. 

And Godlike13: Don't forget about the rumours of a team merging, I wouldn't be surprised if we got a new writer on the book either. It'd tie right into the live-action show. Also, speaking of the Titans, WB just announced an animated movie titled Teen Titans Go! (the current assumption is that this is related to the current cartoon) for 2018, so at least WB is finally trying to build up the Titans brand, let's just hope they manage to build up Nightwing alongside it (I'm personally hoping this is actually the original 2003 versions, but with them being slightly older so we can actually get a big screen, animated Nightwing for all to see).

----------


## nightbird

> I agree with this completely. I mean, I don't want Dick/Damian team-ups gone either, since I'd rather Damian just join Dick in Bludhavem, tbh. 
> 
> And Godlike13: Don't forget about the rumours of a team merging, I wouldn't be surprised if we got a new writer on the book either. It'd tie right into the live-action show. Also, speaking of the Titans, WB just announced an animated movie titled Teen Titans Go! (the current assumption is that this is related to the current cartoon) for 2018, so at least WB is finally trying to build up the Titans brand, let's just hope they manage to build up Nightwing alongside it (I'm personally hoping this is actually the original 2003 versions, but with them being slightly older so we can actually get a big screen, animated Nightwing for all to see).


O wow, not direct-to-dvd, but a big screen one? I guesss WB is really trying to rise (Teen)Titans profile.

----------


## Badou

Merging both teams would be just as bad, imo. I don't want Dick to have to play babysitter to a bunch of young heroes when the Titans franchise is already a fucking mess. Just let them be their own team or let the JL mentor them. They are their legacies anyway.

----------


## Frontier

I'd be fine with merging the team if it means: 

A - A good creative team.

B - The Fab Five are all at least in one book, even if it's not the combined roster. 

C - The roster is good.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd be fine with merging the team if it means: 
> 
> A - A good creative team.
> 
> B - The Fab Five are all at least in one book, even if it's not the combined roster. 
> 
> C - The roster is good.


If you have B than you have C.  :Wink: 

But I really would like a combined roster if the Fab Five were like mentors to the team.

----------


## Alycat

I don't care about the Fab 5 at all. I just want a book where I don't hate everyone. Why is that so hard? Why is team Deathstroke so much better. dick should go join them.

----------


## CPSparkles

> If you have B than you have C. 
> 
> But I really would like a combined roster if the Fab Five were like mentors to the team.


Wouldn't that depend on the writer? I'm not a fan of merging the teams

----------


## byrd156

> Wouldn't that depend on the writer? I'm not a fan of merging the teams


Of course it depends on the writer, but I'm also not a fan of merging except in an instance like that.

----------


## Godlike13

I have nothing against the fab 5, but the Titans needs to stop being treated as a sanctuary for the fab 5.

----------


## Frontier

I think, of the Fab Five, Dick, Wally, and Donna are probably safe for a merged roster.

----------


## oasis1313

Whatever the roster, NIGHTWING is the UNDISPUTED leader.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I have nothing against the fab 5, but the Titans needs to stop being treated as a sanctuary for the fab 5.


I've said it before, that while I like those five characters (well...three out of the five), that particular combo is just so boring on its own. It really needs the NTT crew (and preferably some new characters) to add variety so it doesn't become JL Lite.

----------


## Frontier

> I've said it before, that while I like those five characters (well...three out of the five), that particular combo is just so boring on its own. It really needs the NTT crew (and preferably some new characters) to add variety so it doesn't become JL Lite.


Or at least someone who can do more with them then Dan Abnett can.

----------


## WonderNight

> I have nothing against the fab 5, but the Titans needs to stop being treated as a sanctuary for the fab 5.


The fab 5 all need to just move on to the justice League teams with all the other adults.

----------


## byrd156

> I've said it before, that while I like those five characters (well...three out of the five), that particular combo is just so boring on its own. It really needs the NTT crew (and preferably some new characters) to add variety so it doesn't become JL Lite.


I think that reason is why the line-up is so great to me. It's like the JL grew up together and have been in the superhero game their whole lives.

----------


## Godlike13

> The fab 5 all need to just move on to the justice League teams with all the other adults.


Thats ambitious. The fab 5, except for Dick, need individual redevelopment and modernization, but so does the Titans as a team and a team concept. Thats a lot to juggle for one book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think, of the Fab Five, Dick, Wally, and Donna are probably safe for a merged roster.


what about garth and roy

----------


## Rac7d*

> The fab 5 all need to just move on to the justice League teams with all the other adults.


Nah i like their club better
The JL are kind of dicks to be honest

----------


## Frontier

> what about garth and roy


I think they'll probably go back to their home books. 

Garth is showing up in the latest _Aquaman_ arc and Roy is a recurring character in _Green Arrow_ now.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Grayson! By Adelso Corona
https://instagram.com/p/BZhuGXTB3NP/

IMG_0193.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

Looks like Cable.

----------


## dietrich

> Looks like Cable.


Ha he really does. Look at those muscles

----------


## Vinsanity

> Whatever the roster, NIGHTWING is the UNDISPUTED leader.


Then comes another story about him being like Batman.

Honestly I think Dick Grayson needs to move away from the Titans and just focus on smaller teams that have their own niche. Titans will always be like trying to recapture old magic and it can't really be done.

----------


## Noob_Nathan

Hey guys i was wondering what is a good starting point story to jump into for Nightwing. Should i grab the first rebirth tpb or go further back into grayson etc.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Hey guys i was wondering what is a good starting point story to jump into for Nightwing. Should i grab the first rebirth tpb or go further back into grayson etc.


The first Rebirth arc is great and introduces the best villain Dick has had in years but I recommend you try Grayson too. It's a fantastic book, though the last few issues are a bit weak. They changed writers and wrapped the story up very quickly to acommadate Rebirth. Get both, treat yourself   :Smile:

----------


## Noob_Nathan

> The first Rebirth arc is great and introduces the best villain Dick has had in years but I recommend you try Grayson too. It's a fantastic book, though the last few issues are a bit weak. They changed writers and wrapped the story up very quickly to acommadate Rebirth. Get both, treat yourself


 Thanks mate! I think i will  :Smile:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'm too lazy to post in their individual threads, but I thought the Batgirl issue was pretty good and I'm really liking this arc. Suicide Squad was alright, but I still maintain that Gotham Resistance needs to be used as the basis for a video game. Just so many perfect themes for levels and bosses, with a pretty decent story and a great character roster to carry it all. Lastly, I was wrong about who Jake's mom was, and while that initially disappointed me, my shipping heart hyped me back, especially considering what will be coming soon in this book. The art was a step up from the last one and it was great, I'm genuinely happy with this book.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ha he really does. Look at those muscles


They keep reminding me of the spoof "Megaton Man."  Was this pro or fan art?

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'm too lazy to post in their individual threads, but I thought the Batgirl issue was pretty good and I'm really liking this arc. Suicide Squad was alright, but I still maintain that Gotham Resistance needs to be used as the basis for a video game. Just so many perfect themes for levels and bosses, with a pretty decent story and a great character roster to carry it all. Lastly, I was wrong about who Jake's mom was, and while that initially disappointed me, my shipping heart hyped me back, especially considering what will be coming soon in this book. The art was a step up from the last one and it was great, I'm genuinely happy with this book.


I wanted it to be Supergirl to see how different it would be but the classic is a classic.

It's funny how much i used to dislike Babs/Dick and now I kind of like it. I guess Burnside Batgirl makes it a lot better.

----------


## Fergus

Richard Snow

----------


## dietrich

Owlman, Talon, Nightwing and Batman

----------


## dietrich

> Richard Snow


Nice but can't get over how much Dick with facial hair turns into Tempest  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

http://www.comicsbeat.com/exclusive-...-nightwing-30/

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/_gabrielpicolo/s...05693560221696

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZuJZCQgfgx/

----------


## Godlike13

I wonder where Fernandez is gonna end up.

----------


## Fergus

> I wonder where Fernandez is gonna end up.


Wait who's the new artist going to be?

----------


## nightbird

> Wait who's the new artist going to be?


Bernard Chang

----------


## Fergus

> Bernard Chang


The guy who does BB and new Super-man well that's cool I like his art

----------


## Avi

> https://twitter.com/_gabrielpicolo/s...05693560221696


I thought this was an actual teaser for Humphries' run, like Dick in his (dorm)room. A shame it isn't.

----------


## adrikito

TITANS Casts NIGHTWING's Partner:

https://www.newsarama.com/36651-tita...s-partner.html

----------


## Shadow Myyst

So if Nightwing's staying bi-monthly Humphries is GOING to need a second artist. Minkyu seems to just be doing filler issues here and there as he's currently working on a Titans issue. And I kinda want someone with more individualism & standouty art style than Miguel. You guys think it'll be random rotation of artist with Bernard being the only constant?

----------


## dietrich

> TITANS Casts NIGHTWING's Partner:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/36651-tita...s-partner.html


She she gonna be a core cast member I wonder.

----------


## Rman

> So if Nightwing's staying bi-monthly Humphries is GOING to need a second artist. Minkyu seems to just be doing filler issues here and there as he's currently working on a Titans issue. And I kinda want someone with more individualism & standouty art style than Miguel. You guys think it'll be random rotation of artist with Bernard being the only constant?



I am not sure who I want, but it is the somewhat frustrating thing about the bi-monthly books that they have to have the rotating art teams, particularly since given the opportunity Bernard Chang has shown he can consistently do a monthly book with only a fill in here or there.  I would much rather have Nightwing go monthly and be able to have a consistent art team.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nice but can't get over how much Dick with facial hair turns into Tempest


Garth needs to get his curls back.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

you know, I've noticed there's a severe lack of Raptor fan art. Which sucks. I wish there was more, maybe at some point I'll be able to commission some.

----------


## dietrich

> you know, I've noticed there's a severe lack of Raptor fan art. Which sucks. I wish there was more, maybe at some point I'll be able to commission some.


I say give it time but in the mean time



the-great-ultron.deviantart.com

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I say give it time but in the mean time
> 
> the-great-ultron.deviantart.com


There we go! Thanks, I need to get better at finding fan art of stuff, lol. 

I wonder how long it'll take for the Better than Batman trade to hit international markets (or if it already has), as Grayson did win a Gaiman Award and it'd be a good idea to put out Nightwing. I imagine there's some sort of demand for Nightwing in Japan and other Asian markets, I mean we're getting that Ikemen statue and I've seen all sorts of fan art of Dick from when he was a police officer to Grayson stuff. I hope Raptor is popular with those crowds, too.

----------


## CPSparkles

> There we go! Thanks, I need to get better at finding fan art of stuff, lol. 
> 
> I wonder how long it'll take for the Better than Batman trade to hit international markets (or if it already has), as Grayson did win a Gaiman Award and it'd be a good idea to put out Nightwing. I imagine there's some sort of demand for Nightwing in Japan and other Asian markets, I mean we're getting that Ikemen statue and I've seen all sorts of fan art of Dick from when he was a police officer to Grayson stuff. I hope Raptor is popular with those crowds, too.


I got mine from Amazon uk does that count as international market?
There's definitely a demand for Nightwing across the globe and I guess the more we see raptor the more his popularity will grow.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I got mine from Amazon uk does that count as international market?
> There's definitely a demand for Nightwing across the globe and I guess the more we see raptor the more his popularity will grow.


Well I mean in languages other than English, like it being translated to Chinese for China and Taiwan and other places. 

But yeah I agree, I really just want Raptor to grow in popularity alongside Nightwing.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZzbDrrg7ZU/

----------


## oasis1313

I'd like to see Tiger King get his own book.

----------


## Korath

> There we go! Thanks, I need to get better at finding fan art of stuff, lol. 
> 
> I wonder how long it'll take for the Better than Batman trade to hit international markets (or if it already has), as Grayson did win a Gaiman Award and it'd be a good idea to put out Nightwing. I imagine there's some sort of demand for Nightwing in Japan and other Asian markets, I mean we're getting that Ikemen statue and I've seen all sorts of fan art of Dick from when he was a police officer to Grayson stuff. I hope Raptor is popular with those crowds, too.


Well, Nightwing Rebirth vol 1 was released in French some months ago. It must be noted that it's one of the very few Nightwing books which was translated, since Dick's solos are only from New 52 onwards here, thanks to a very chaotic and bad choices in the decades prior.

----------


## dietrich

Dick, Bruce and Damian

----------


## dietrich

Agent 37

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I'd like to see Tiger King get his own book.


I'd love that or at least a mini penned by Tom King so we can find out his backstory.

There's a DC sale on Comixology, if anyone's interested you can get Volume 1 of Grayson for €5.49. Also volume 1 of Chuck Dixon's and Kyle Higgins Nightwing.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ0Z4qShEcy/

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat family by Afterlife

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## nightbird

> 


Dick had some wild hairstyles lol

----------


## Spartacus87

Looks like they might give Dick and Helena a chance. I'm glad.

----------


## Fergus

> 


Forget working in a Casino Dick should get a job with L'Oreal  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Forget working in a Casino Dick should get a job with L'Oreal


This is so cute!

----------


## dietrich

Funny

----------


## jbmasta

> Dick had some wild hairstyles lol


The 90's wasn't always a kind decade for fashion, just look at Superman's long hair.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ4NXXTFLUv/

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ4NXXTFLUv/


Kinda cute  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## nightbird

> The 90's wasn't always a kind decade for fashion, just look at Superman's long hair.


Yeah, I know. Still, poor Richard lol

----------


## nightbird

by Tim Seeley 
https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...89101597347842
+
Midnigther and Grayson
https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...78012893630464
+
Raptor 
https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...68356163293190

----------


## Hizashi

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ4NXXTFLUv/


Great artwork. They both look great, love when artist's don't draw toothpick women, and the lighting on Nightwing and Starfire's hair is superb.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick's love life is giving me a headache. I need a timeline with labels dic(k)tating his status with them. We have reached quantum level love life, people.

----------


## RedBird

> Dick's love life is giving me a headache. I need a timeline with labels dic(k)tating his status with them. We have reached quantum level love life, people.


Just assume every woman within a 500 yard radius wants the D. Thats how DC go about it anyway.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

by Sonofabat

----------


## CPSparkles

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ4NXXTFLUv/


Love Starfire's hair in this

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ7wKS5HV15/

----------


## Shadow Myyst

I see your Nightwings and challenge 
IMG_0305.jpg

----------


## Fergus

Counter

----------


## dietrich

I like this because Symbolism
Dick is Nightwing



redemption13

----------


## dietrich

More info on the IKEMEN figure. They started with the fairest of them all.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...ikemen-statue/

This article doesn't include pre order details but I know those are now being taken will post that later.

----------


## TheCape

614f9d182019532da2fa9f1ec94588a0-1.jpg
Just found this in tumblr.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_nig8hvRrm71s81zze.jpg
This is something that i hope future writters take into account.

----------


## nightbird

> tumblr_inline_nig8hvRrm71s81zze.jpg
> This is something that i hope future writters take into account.


Yeah, me too. He was raised and trained by Batman after all.

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, me too. He was raised and trained by Batman after all.


That is the main reason of why don't buy the idea of Dick being an improviser, Batman wouldn't do less with his kids.

----------


## TheCape

Ups i made mistake, one moment

----------


## TheCape

29qb48n.jpg
There it is.

----------


## Godlike13

Just be because he was raised and trained by Bruce doesn't mean he is Bruce, or has to operate the same way. Batman-lite is lazy and boring. In addition to his training Dick has had experiences of his own that helped to uniquely shape him. Dick being an improviser works.

----------


## nightbird

> Just be because he was raised and trained by Bruce doesn't mean he is Bruce. Batman-lite is lazy and boring. He has had experiences of his own that helped shaped him too. Dick being an improviser works.


Dick is not obsessed by creating plans, but to say that he should be only an improviser is wrong. He doesn't need to be a Bruce or Batman-lite to logically have same traits as his mentor. Especially considering that they already quite different.

----------


## dietrich

> Just be because he was raised and trained by Bruce doesn't mean he is Bruce. Batman-lite is lazy and boring. In addition to his training Dick has had experiences of his own that helped uniquely shape him. Dick being an improviser works.


This i hate the whole Batman lite thing it limits the character so much. Batman [raised and trained] + Dick Grayson [personal experiences] = something different and unique Nightwing37.

No one wants a Batman lite when you have the real deal.

----------


## TheCape

I don't want Dick to be Batman lite, i want him to be written as a well rounded characther, with flaws and virtues, that nonsense of "Dick is a good person", "he is a total improviser" or "the opposite of Bruce" is bull. I don't care for him being in Bludhaven or a world troting vigilante, i want him acknoleged as the sum up of his expiriences, who is very similar to Bruce but with differences that also make him stand out from him.

----------


## The World

> I don't want Dick to be Batman lite, i want him to be written as a well rounded characther, with flaws and virtues, that nonsense of "Dick is a good person", "he is a total improviser" or "the opposite of Bruce" is bull. I don't care for him being in Bludhaven or a world troting vigilante, i want him acknoleged as the sum up of his expiriences, who is very similar to Bruce but with differences that also make him stand out from him.


Agreed. Dick being Batman lite is bad but trying to make him the polar opposite is pretty poor form as well. Characters feel sort of unnatural when they're behavior is being determined solely by how act in relation to someone else. It just sort of comes of as kind of mechanical. You should be able to see the different experiences a character has been through in the character itself. To be honest I don't think many writers write him as a total opposite or a direct clone of Bruce. You see aspects of Bruce without him being a complete clone.

----------


## TheCape

@TheWorld
Morrison sort of started the whole thing when he decided to go for the "ligther" Batman and "serious" Robin, when sometimes he was sterotyped because of his circus background qnd frankly that whole business with the clone of Bruce being resurrected was sort of pathetic if you ask me, but that's how Morrison goes, he is unexpected and dramatic and that come across at the expense of charactherization, i think that his DickBats was too soft sometimes, but still was recognizable for the most part. I think that Seely (and i guest King)  sort of took that aproach and went crazy with it ib Grayson, Rebirth has been an improvement to some extent, but far from what i would expect.

----------


## yohyoi

This thread is full of Dick pics.  :Wink: 

Edit: I miss posting, but my life has been hectic.
       Anyway, there is a DC sale in ComiXology. There is a Nightwing section.
https://www.comixology.com/DC-Select...mdlQ2Fyb3VzZWw

----------


## The World

> @TheWorld
> Morrison sort of started the whole thing when he decided to go for the "ligther" Batman and "serious" Robin, when sometimes he was sterotyped because of his circus background qnd frankly that whole business with the clone of Bruce being resurrected was sort of pathetic if you ask me, but that's how Morrison goes, he is unexpected and dramatic and that come across at the expense of charactherization, i think that his DickBats was too soft sometimes, but still was recognizable for the most part. I think that Seely (and i guest King)  sort of took that aproach and went crazy with it ib Grayson, Rebirth has been an improvement to some extent, but far from what i would expect.


I always took the lighter stuff as just meaning he wasn't carrying the same kind of personal baggage that Bruce was carrying, but I never took it as soft or weak. Morrison still had Dick give Slade a heart attack and then beat him with his I.V. post, dress down Talia in front of her own goons, and he was a whip smart detective. 

Funny enough I saw Grayson era Dick as the most behind the scenes planner/schemer-ish of recent memory. That scene where he hypnotized that one robot lady and made her start spilling her guts was sort of creepy.

----------


## TheCape

@TheWorld
It wasn't that bad, althougth he was sterotyped for a bit, his portrayal there was in general good, my favorite scene is when he punch Slade in the hospital bed for what happened in Bludhaven (he had that coming for a long time) i just think that some of the missconceptions with the characther started there (ok Devin Grayson run is guilty too). Having Dick saying things like "i'm not like Bruce, i work without a net" or "can you tell to Lucius that i grew in a circus tent and i don't know anything aboit running a business", don't sound like things that Dick would said.
Grayson's Dick spend like 11 issues being under Spyral orders and not really advancing his plans against then until he told the rest of the family what happened (except for that lolipop enginered by Bruce), so the premise that was sort of flimsy already, became even more after that and of course the reactions of everyone else wad odd (except for Damian), i give you this, at least the world building around Spyral was interesting and the conversations beetween Bruce and Dick were actually decent.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The entire DickBats era characterized Dick as someone who treated the role of Batman as a new adventure rather than a mission. He brooded like Bruce, got things done like Bruce, beat himself up more than Bruce did when he made mistakes, and yeah, made more mistakes than Bruce may have. He'd seen it all as Robin and Nightwing, and as such was a great mentor to Damian and Nightrunner, but he still had some things to learn which he did on his own, with his own Robin, with the rest of the Batfamily, or with his own JLA team. But still, he really became the World's Greatest Detective until Bruce showed up again, and he was also a pure badass. It was really such a fun time. 

Grayson was Dick as the swashbuckling Robin all grown up, the sex icon and the charmer, who was flexing his experience as Batman to be a master-schemer and one of the World's Greatest Spies. He was out-witted sometimes, but he always found someway to come out on top. He was in top physical and mental form, going at it with people like Midnighter and King Faraday. I think we all loved seeing Dick be out there as clever as he should be, and finally as competent physically as he should've been at the start of the New 52 when he moved on from being Batman (it really felt like he'd moved up from being Batman in Grayson, tbh). I wouldn't ever call him creepy there, but I could see that.

From Rebirth onwards, it really was a sort of status quo reset. He's never really as clever as he was in Grayson, he's leading the Titans, he's back in Bludhaven dealing with Blockbuster, etc. But I think a lot of people haven't been paying attention to how much of a savage he is. He may get beat on a bit at the start of every arc, but man does he demolish villains at the end. In #8, Dick tore Raptor down verbally and destroyed him physically to an extent I've never seen Dick take someone out before. He reduced Deathwing into a blubbering mess and managed to get in one good punch on Hurt when he was completely out of it. In #24, he ran through how many villains? And he gave crazy verbal beatdowns to Blockbuster and Minos in their arcs, breaking them both in different ways. While Grayson made it seem like Dick was in top physical form, I've never believed it as much as I do now. That issue where Dick beats Bruce in that sparring match? I can believe that really happened now. I like this run because it brought back the workaholic Dick that we haven't really seen in a while, has been using his circus background a lot better than any other run imo, and again, he's a crazy savage.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYjLVX7nKeO/?hl=en

----------


## WonderNight

question. how old are dick and bruce in rebirth :Confused:

----------


## Godlike13

No one said that Dick should be only an improviser, but improvising being his preferred operating method works. It makes sense and provides creative diversity in how Dick and Bruce operate. Because at the end of the day having two character that act and do things the same way is boring and ultimate pointless. Morrison knew that. Which is why he played up Dick as an improviser and portrayed him as relaxed and more laid back about things. Which made plenty of sense given Dick's experiences and where he came from.

----------


## Rac7d*

> question. how old are dick and bruce in rebirth


23 bruce young enough to keep bing batman without difficulties

----------


## Badou

> question. how old are dick and bruce in rebirth


Dick is around 21 to 23 and Bruce is early 30s.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> question. how old are dick and bruce in rebirth


Dick is supposed to be around 21 and Bruce was supposed to be in his early thirties at the start of the Nu52. But now that DC said the 5 year timeline is out I imagine he is older now. My head canon is mid forties but he took a bath in a rejuvenating chemical during End Game so I say he's in peak physical condition.

----------


## oasis1313

Now that the circus is becoming a thing only of the past, do you guys think DC will have to cough up a new origin for Dick in about 20 years or so?  By then, the coveted 13-15 year-old readers will never have had access to a circus; they won't be able to relate to it at all--no kid thoughts of "run away and join the circus."  Dick's circus origin will age him beyond grandpa years.

----------


## TheCape

Dick origin's has grandfather clause.

----------


## Godlike13

Even if the business is dieing, Circus' are still known of enough that its not something that they have to do anything about. Dick coming from a now closed down circus is still plenty relevant.

----------


## dietrich

Not sure how one can say DickBats was soft. Dick is someone who is able to adapt and bend depending on the situation. Working with Damian I felt he had to be more cheerful and gentle in handling considering his character and the fact that their dad just died.

----------


## Rac7d*

So dick and jason are the same age that it?

and Damian gets to be 13 but everone else dindt age up 3 years???

----------


## nightbird

> So dick and jason are the same age that it?
> 
> and Damian gets to be 13 but everone else dindt age up 3 years???


Jason should be just a year or two younger than Dick in Nu52... but in RHaTO Jason looked a good 5 years younger than Dick... As always characters's age in comics just a mess  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

Panels from Nightwing #33 from NYCC
https://twitter.com/EmpiresVast/stat...62677624709120

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Now that the circus is becoming a thing only of the past, do you guys think DC will have to cough up a new origin for Dick in about 20 years or so?  By then, the coveted 13-15 year-old readers will never have had access to a circus; they won't be able to relate to it at all--no kid thoughts of "run away and join the circus."  Dick's circus origin will age him beyond grandpa years.


Replacing the circus would be like replacing the gun that killed Martha & Thomas. The circus will forever be too iconic to replace imo. I'm 20 circuses weren't popular when I was younger, and I've never been to nor cared enough to see a circus. But knowing the history of circuses and the colorful personalities I still think it's cool to come from that sort of background. Dick and Haly's circus are too unique to change to something modernly generic.

----------


## Alycat

Good to see that Dick is already ruining his time with Helena.

----------


## jbmasta

> Jason should be just a year or two younger than Dick in Nu52... but in RHaTO Jason looked a good 5 years younger than Dick... As always characters's age in comics just a mess


Artist interpretation and style always plays a big role in how characters look. So unless it's very important to the story the artists will have a rough estimate of the age of characters for how to depict them. I'm just guessing here.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason should be just a year or two younger than Dick in Nu52... but in RHaTO Jason looked a good 5 years younger than Dick... As always characters's age in comics just a mess


Jasons current age was never really clearly given in the new 52.

I think pre rebirth it was said at some point that he was 17 when he died (pre flashpoint he was defiantly much younger) but now in Rebirth it is hard to say. And I hope they reduce his stating age as Robin again.

Btw. I think Dicks age in Rebirth was also never clearly stated.

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

> More info on the IKEMEN figure. They started with the fairest of them all.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...ikemen-statue/
> 
> This article doesn't include pre order details but I know those are now being taken will post that later.


I was wondering when this was going to be released. Now I know when to keep an eye out.  :Cool:

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Jasons current age was never really clearly given in the new 52.
> 
> I think pre rebirth it was said at some point that he was 17 when he died (pre flashpoint he was defiantly much younger) but now in Rebirth it is hard to say. And I hope they reduce his stating age as Robin again.
> 
> Btw. I think Dicks age in Rebirth was also never clearly stated.


Dick age isn't clarified but start of rebirth he was like kids my age are now finishing college and scrambling to find a job. I've always gone with 21 - 23. Safest and believable. Perfect age range imo

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick age isn't clarified but start of rebirth he was like kids my age are now finishing college and scrambling to find a job. I've always gone with 21 - 23. Safest and believable. Perfect age range imo


jason got be 21 since he drinks, and he brings tim to a bar who reminds him he is only 17 

cant dick jsut be 23

----------


## Frontier

> Panels from Nightwing #33 from NYCC
> https://twitter.com/EmpiresVast/stat...62677624709120


Wonder where Dick got all those bruises...

----------


## nightbird

> Wonder where Dick got all those bruises...


Blockbaster or Raptor? 

+

https://twitter.com/TeenTitansMovie/...27118329303041
Teen Titans Go title and voice cast announcement.

----------


## Badou

I wonder if people that didn't read the Grayson series feel like the Helena fling is completely random. If you just read Rebirth Nightwing you wouldn't really know who she is when she appeared in the previous arc.

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/javierfdezart/st...48017086353408

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder if people that didn't read the Grayson series feel like the Helena fling is completely random. If you just read Rebirth Nightwing you wouldn't really know who she is when she appeared in the previous arc.


Well, obviously it would be harder to understand and appreciate the relationship between Dick and Helena here without reading _Grayson_, though some might understand it if they remember Dick and Helena's pre-_Flashpoint_ relationship.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> https://twitter.com/javierfdezart/st...48017086353408


Really going to miss his art in this book

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, obviously it would be harder to understand and appreciate the relationship between Dick and Helena here without reading _Grayson_, though some might understand it if they remember Dick and Helena's pre-_Flashpoint_ relationship.


Hey, it's Dick Grayson.  He's just marking time with Helena till his next redhead comes along.

----------


## Fergus

> Hey, it's Dick Grayson.  He's just marking time with Helena till his next redhead comes along.


I hope not. I like Helena didn't like Dick inviting the Blonde Agent into his bed after turning Helena down in Grayson so curious to see how this works out.

----------


## Fergus

Finally got around to reading #30 and this was a nice issue. 

Love the juxtaposition between the opening Narration and the outcome at the end.
So everyone eventually falls for Dick Grayson am I right  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I've missed Raptor and can't blame Dick going to the Run-Offs disappointed that they didn't help the ingrates he saved your lives.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## DJ1107

> I wonder if people that didn't read the Grayson series feel like the Helena fling is completely random. If you just read Rebirth Nightwing you wouldn't really know who she is when she appeared in the previous arc.


Eh I was more lost on Dick being a double agent with the court of owls & the Tiger guy more than I was with his fling with Huntress right now. I'm at least aware they had a one-night stand in the old universe so it doesn't come off that random to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

I saw the raptor in the end of a destroke issue i was breezing though, he was part of the society

I would love for a villain of dick to gain a life of its own and venture out, Deathroke is  kind of like  that
Back when higgins was writing i felt like the prankstar was suppose to do this but dicks death cut that short

----------


## Badou

The Prankster was a villain forced on Higgins for the Villain's Month issue. I don't believe Higgins ever wanted to use him as he messed up his plans for the Chicago arc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Prankster was a villain forced on Higgins for the Villain's Month issue. I don't believe Higgins ever wanted to use him as he messed up his plans for the Chicago arc.


really? I saw him here and i thought
oh were gonn see more of him

----------


## oasis1313

> I saw the raptor in the end of a destroke issue i was breezing though, he was part of the society
> 
> I would love for a villain of dick to gain a life of its own and venture out, Deathroke is  kind of like  that
> Back when higgins was writing i felt like the prankstar was suppose to do this but dicks death cut that short


 I wouldn't mind seeing more of Raptor in the DCU.  A villain who can't feel pain due to leprosy is an interesting idea.

----------


## Badou

> really? I saw him here and i thought
> oh were gonn see more of him


Yup, I think Higgins' plan was to have the former sidekick to the hero in Chicago be the big bad of the arc, but DC told Higgins he had to use Prankster for the Villains Month thing and he had to rewrite his story to include him. 

All those New 52 villains were so forgettable to be honest. Looking back. I guess forgettable villains is a hallmark of Nighting runs, lol.

I'm still surprised they never did anything with Dick and Deathstroke. I guess they tried to do something in the Titans book with Priest's story, but man, that was bad. I'm just surprised they haven't just done a story with the two of them. I wonder if there is a reason for it like they don't want to tie Deathstroke's character to Nightwing possibly.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## nightbird

> Yup, I think Higgins' plan was to have the former sidekick to the hero in Chicago be the big bad of the arc, but DC told Higgins he had to use Prankster for the Villains Month thing and he had to rewrite his story to include him. 
> 
> All those New 52 villains were so forgettable to be honest. Looking back. I guess forgettable villains is a hallmark of Nighting runs, lol.
> 
> I'm still surprised they never did anything with Dick and Deathstroke. I guess they tried to do something in the Titans book with Priest's story, but man, that was bad. I'm just surprised they haven't just done a story with the two of them. I wonder if there is a reason for it like they don't want to tie Deathstroke's character to Nightwing possibly.


Probably. They're trying to build Deathstroke as this big solo character, their anti-hero (lol). But I'm happy to not see him around Nightwing anymore.

----------


## Badou

> Probably. They're trying to build Deathstroke as this big solo character, their anti-hero (lol). But I'm happy to not see him around Nightwing anymore.


Why not? Nightwing and Deathstroke are the two most successful things from the Titans franchise probably. I wouldn't mind more of a connection between them.

----------


## WonderNight

just read metal #3 and it was great to see dick interacting with dc's permier hero's for once. hope we get more soon.

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone else love the blue bat symbol of DickBats in the recent 'Tec issue? Very Nightwing-ish.

In my opinion, Dick should not be Batman. He is his own person.

I can't see Dick allowing the cowl to define his life like Bruce has; therefore he should not be Batman.

----------


## nightbird

> Anyone else love the blue bat symbol of DickBats in the recent 'Tec issue? Very Nightwing-ish.
> 
> In my opinion, Dick should not be Batman. He is his own person.
> 
> I can't see Dick allowing the cowl to define his life like Bruce has; therefore he should not be Batman.


Dick showed he can be his own version of Batman. You don't need to be like Bruce, defined by cowl, to be a Batman, imo.
And I didn't like how TEC portrayed Dick, Jason and Damian just to make Tim Batman.

----------


## nightbird

> Why not? Nightwing and Deathstroke are the two most successful things from the Titans franchise probably. I wouldn't mind more of a connection between them.


I just don't like him, that's it  :Stick Out Tongue: 
p.s. And also maybe I think writers should rely less on Titans or Batman villains.

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick showed he can be his own version of Batman. You don't need to be like Bruce, defined by cowl, to be a Batman, imo.
> And I didn't like how TEC portrayed Dick, Jason and Damian just to make Tim Batman.


Dick did become his own Batman, but it is the main reason he can't be The Batman. He was just Nightwing wearing the Bat costume.

I also believe being defined by the cowl is the main component of becoming The Batman. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. The sacrifice of the self for the mission is the most Batman thing next to prep time.

Dick also never wanted to become The Batman. He didn't saw the cowl as his destiny or birthright. Him leaving is in character. He is only waiting for Damian to get older and become the next Batman.

I understand why Dick would leave. Batman's life is an endless battle against crime. I don't want to live a life like that for the rest of my life.

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick showed he can be his own version of Batman. You don't need to be like Bruce, defined by cowl, to be a Batman, imo.
> And I didn't like how TEC portrayed Dick, Jason and Damian just to make Tim Batman.


Ya, the hoops to get Tim to Batman at this point is just silly.




> Dick did become his own Batman, but it is the main reason he can't be The Batman. He was just Nightwing wearing the Bat costume.
> 
> I also believe being defined by the cowl is the main component of becoming The Batman. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. The sacrifice of the self for the mission is the most Batman thing next to prep time.
> 
> Dick also never wanted to become The Batman. He didn't saw the cowl as his destiny or birthright. Him leaving is in character. He is only waiting for Damian to get older and become the next Batman.
> 
> I understand why Dick would leave. Batman's life is an endless battle against crime. I don't want to live a life like that for the rest of my life.


Him leaving is not in character. Not even a little. He didn't see the cowl as his destiny or birthright, and he certainly didn't want it, but nevertheless he saw it as his responsibility. It was his responsibility to keep Batman and Robin alive, and so he did just that. He would never just bail and be like "later guys, im out", nor has he ever indicated that he'd want to retire from fighting crime LoL. That was Tim.

----------


## TheCape

The whole point of the story is that none of the 4 Robins was worthy of being Batman, hell the whole thing ends with EvilTim admitting that he pretty much suck and hate what he has done.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is worthy and competent to be Batman, even evil Tim admits it. He even tried to convince Dick to continue being Batman. It's just Dick is not Bruce.

At some time, Dick would move on with his life and search for something more than being a hero: A family. Dick won't sacrifice love and his family because of a costume.

----------


## Godlike13

Batman is his family. He wouldn't just bail, lol. But they needed to get Tim from A to B.

----------


## yohyoi

> Him leaving is not in character. Not even a little. He didn't see the cowl as his destiny or birthright, and he certainly didn't want it, but he saw it as his responsibility. It was his responsibility to keep Batman and Robin alive, and so he did just that. He would never just ditch and be just like "later guys", nor has he ever indicated that he'd want to retire from fighting crime LoL. That was Tim.


You forgot he has a life and family now. Dick isn't just Batman. He is a husband, father and most likely has a career. Dick will not sacrifice his most loved ones on a endless fight, where only tragedies exist.

Hate it, but I respect and understand Dick's decision. I have a family, and I will always put their safety and future first. It is a human flaw I can deeply relate with.

----------


## TheCape

> Dick is worthy and competent to be Batman, even evil Tim admits it. He even tried to convince Dick to continue being Batman. It's just Dick is not Bruce.


I mean worthy, in the sense of wanting to protect Gotham for the rest of his life, Dick would fill that role just as good as Bruce (if not better) and probably is in peace already with his similarities with Bruce bothering him, but he wouldn't want to end his story like that.
Anyway, i think that this future is just a way to present the 4 boys failling and turning into the worst versions of thenselves, because of the circumstances.

----------


## yohyoi

> I mean worthy, in the sense of wanting to protect Gotham for the rest of his life, Dick would fill that role just as good as Bruce (if not better) and probably is in peace already with his similarities with Bruce bothering him, but he wouldn't want to end his story like that.


Which is why Bruce is such a compelling and interesting character. Him wanting to protect Gotham is bordering to obsession. Many writers have said the most important thing for Bruce after his parents is Gotham. I don't see Dick having the same drive.

----------


## Godlike13

> You forgot he has a life and family now. Dick isn't just Batman. He is a husband, father and most likely has a career. Dick will not sacrifice his most loved ones on a endless fight, where only tragedies exist.
> 
> Hate it, but I respect and understand Dick's decision. I have a family, and I will always put their safety and future first. It is a human flaw I can deeply relate with.


Doesn't matter if Dick isn't Batman, being a superhero has been his life since he was a child. He's as crazy about it as Bruce is. Him walking away, while convenient, is not at all in character.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick showed he can be his own version of Batman. You don't need to be like Bruce, defined by cowl, to be a Batman, imo.
> And I didn't like how TEC portrayed Dick, Jason and Damian just to make Tim Batman.


Not reading Tec but wouldn't expect anything less from it's writer.

----------


## dietrich

Wasn't a fan of today's Metal Sick of Batman writers trying to make it seem that Bruce is the only one that Damian cares about and even making it seem like Damian doesn't value Dick and his opinions.
I'm glad Dick was shown to be right in the end and I like the Jon Snow Nightwing ref but disappointed. 

I hope we see more of the brothers going forward in metal and we find out more about Dick head injury and his connections to Metal.

Is it like a 3rd eye or something?

----------


## nightbird

> Dick did become his own Batman, but it is the main reason he can't be The Batman. He was just Nightwing wearing the Bat costume.
> 
> I also believe being defined by the cowl is the main component of becoming The Batman. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. The sacrifice of the self for the mission is the most Batman thing next to prep time.
> 
> Dick also never wanted to become The Batman. He didn't saw the cowl as his destiny or birthright. Him leaving is in character. He is only waiting for Damian to get older and become the next Batman.
> 
> I understand why Dick would leave. Batman's life is an endless battle against crime. I don't want to live a life like that for the rest of my life.


I don't think anyone, even Bruce, needs exact copy of himself. 
And Batman is his mask as much as his fake playboy persona. Bruce Wayne is Bruce Wayne.
Leaving Gotham and people in need is the last thing that Dick would do. Godlike13 said it all. Also, honestly, Dick never really showed signs, that he can have a life outside being a superhero. He loves it.

----------


## nightbird

> *Wasn't a fan of today's Metal Sick of Batman writers trying to make it seem that Bruce is the only one that Damian cares about and even making it seem like Damian doesn't value Dick and his opinions.*
> I'm glad Dick was shown to be right in the end and I like the Jon Snow Nightwing ref but disappointed. 
> 
> I hope we see more of the brothers going forward in metal and we find out more about Dick head injury and his connections to Metal.
> 
> Is it like a 3rd eye or something?


Can writers stop making Dick Batfamily's punching bag. It's not funny at this point.

----------


## TheCape

Did Scott Snyder has Bruce punching a teeth out of Dick again?.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I always find the Dick will walk away or doesn’t have the same drive as Bruce talk to be the most foolish and illogical. When has Dick ever quit outright? All he has ever done since leaving Haly’s Circus regardless of age was to fight for justice with or without a secret identity. Where does this in the end he’ll retire or start a family argument come from? All his major relationships are with superheroes and in the rare times we see him past the age of 30 comics he is still fighting for justice/ superheroing as seen in Kingdom Come, Earth Two etc. Dick does not want to be Batman because it is defined by Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is not a mask he puts on a mask in public like a lot of normal people do but when he is not in a public setting Bruce = Batman and it is impossible standard to match up with and Dick knows that being Nightwing is the best way to establish himself as an individual. It doesn’t matter what is said in ‘Tec or by Damian because Bruce will always be Batman and anyone attempting to take over the Mantle is renting a cowl that will return to The Batman. This is why I don’t think Damian being Batman or Nightwing in the future will last when he gets older since by that time he should be mature enough to know it is better to define yourself uniquely as opposed to filling someone else’s costume.

----------


## nightbird

> Did Scott Snyder has Bruce punching a teeth out of Dick again?.


Worse. Damian. 
I don't know why writers think it's appropriate for Batfamily members to even think that it's okay to hit Richard for whatever reason.

----------


## TheCape

Oh man, i can see the rage in the Damian Wayne thread already, i would go to read to see how it went.

----------


## Godlike13

He thought Dick was abandoning his father, though as we know now Dick was just doing what Bruce wanted.

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, i agreed with you, it wasn't bad.

----------


## Aioros22

> Worse. Damian. 
> I don't know why writers think it's appropriate for Batfamily members to even think that it's okay to hit Richard for whatever reason.


Depends on the reason. Ain`t nobody above an asswooping on principle.

----------


## Alycat

> Depends on the reason. Ain`t nobody above an asswooping on principle.


They keep letting Alfred slide though.

----------


## Aioros22

He`s more sacred to writers than Bruce is. 

Closest you get is Jason calling Alfred a shit cook.

----------


## TheCape

And even Jason isn't able to tell him that on his face  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

> Depends on the reason. Ain`t nobody above an asswooping on principle.


I call it bs. First, they had vague reasons to do it, nothing that they couldn't resolve/end with simple words. No, Jason had no rights to hit Dick, no matter how angry he was. Same applies to Damian. Second, how about to at least apologize for what you did? Right after or later, it doesn't matter. Violence, especially against a close person, is never an answer. I honestly don't like this tendency, when writers make Batfamily smack each other in the face.

----------


## Frontier

> just read metal #3 and it was great to see dick interacting with dc's permier hero's for once. hope we get more soon.


They even outright confirmed the Jon Snow comparisons  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Yeah, i agreed with you, it wasn't bad.


It wasn't the worst incident in which Dick has been slapped around by his family that's for sure but it's the frequency that it happens that gets me down. At this point Bruce, Jason, Babs, Tim and Damian have all taken a cheap shot. In the case of Babs and Damian it's multiple times now. And it's _always_ Dick. All that's left now is for Alfred to knee him in the balls, that would be the icing on the cake.

----------


## Aioros22

> I call it bs. First, they had vague reasons to do it, nothing that they couldn't resolve/end with simple words. No, Jason had no rights to hit Dick, no matter how angry he was. Same applies to Damian. Second, how about to at least apologize for what you did? Right after or later, it doesn't matter. Violence, especially against a close person, is never an answer. I honestly don't like this tendency, when writers make Batfamily smack each other in the face.


Lying about being dead and disagreeing over the fate of your father, aren`t "vague" reasons.

----------


## oasis1313

> It wasn't the worst incident in which Dick has been slapped around by his family that's for sure but it's the frequency that it happens that gets me down. At this point Bruce, Jason, Babs, Tim and Damian have all taken a cheap shot. In the case of Babs and Damian it's multiple times now. And it's _always_ Dick. All that's left now is for Alfred to knee him in the balls, that would be the icing on the cake.


I'm getting pretty tired of it, too.  Maybe it's editorial wish fulfillment.

----------


## Alycat

I actually think Jason was in the right for hitting Dick. That situation was worth being angry about.

----------


## dietrich

> Depends on the reason. Ain`t nobody above an asswooping on principle.


There was no reason i get he thought Dick was abandoning his father but that is not a good enough reason and he is a 13 yr old boy not an animal he could use his words.
It is editorial wish fulfilment at this point because Damian doesn't go around smacking people but with Dick it's twice now. It's BS.

----------


## oasis1313

> There was no reason i get he thought Dick was abandoning his father but that is not a good enough reason and he is a 13 yr old boy not an animal he could use his words.
> It is editorial wish fulfilment at this point because Damian doesn't go around smacking people but with Dick it's twice now. It's BS.


Who DOESN'T smack Dick around in that family?  Next time he'll get kicked by Bat-Cow.

----------


## nightbird

> Lying about being dead and disagreeing over the fate of your father, aren`t "vague" reasons.


Yes, solid reasons to be angry, vague to hit your family member. We talk about comics, considering what they experience on daily basis and what they deal with regularly it's hard to imagine that smaking someone is a better option, than to use words. And, excuse me for not supporting violence against family member in any form. Especially when it happens regularly.

----------


## oasis1313

I think they should all start knocking Tim's teeth out instead of Dick's.

----------


## jbmasta

> 


Very manga-esque.

----------


## CPSparkles

Toddler Dick Grayson by https://kaylabeemarie.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I actually think Jason was in the right for hitting Dick. That situation was worth being angry about.


Based on their lives and their relationship no Jason did not have a reason to hit Dick. Jason and Dick had barely a relationship at that point.

----------


## dietrich

> Who DOESN'T smack Dick around in that family?  Next time he'll get kicked by Bat-Cow.


It's disrespectful and I don't like. We all joke about it and we're becoming desensitised to it which we shouldn't.
Someone on the Damian thread joked that since Bruce is an abuser his kids are picking up the habit. However that too isn't okay. Damian has grown a lot and he has so much respect for Dick that he wouldn't just do that infact Damian has progressed beyond a kid who lashes out violently.
That scene was disrespectful to both characters.

----------


## dietrich

> I think they should all start knocking Tim's teeth out instead of Dick's.


I would gladly pay good money to see this  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> Yes, solid reasons to be angry, vague to hit your family member. We talk about comics, considering what they experience on daily basis and what they deal with regularly it's hard to imagine that smaking someone is a better option, than to use words. And, excuse me for not supporting violence against family member in any form. Especially when it happens regularly.


Ideally violence is no better and I`m not defending it but I am saying it`s human to lash out in certain situations. Jason smacking one on Dick for lying about being dead, for having Bruce lie about it as well -  when he actually died, isn`t a vague thing he decided to do the moment he woke up. He felt disrespectful and within reason. Dick went as far as saying in the same Exchange he wasn`t apologizing either. Eye foraneye. 

Damian...well, he`s 13. He`s afraid he`s losing his father for good and the person he trusts the most in the world seemingly thinks that rescuing his father isn`t the way to do.

----------


## Aioros22

> There was no reason i get he thought Dick was abandoning his father but that is not a good enough reason and he is a 13 yr old boy not an animal he could use his words.
> It is editorial wish fulfilment at this point because Damian doesn't go around smacking people but with Dick it's twice now. It's BS.


Hey, I don`t mind Dick smacking people either. I`m democratic about it.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Ideally violence is no better and I`m not defending it but I am saying it`s human to lash out in certain situations. Jason smacking one on Dick for lying about being dead, for having Bruce lie about it as well -  when he actually died, isn`t a vague thing he decided to do the moment he woke up. He felt disrespectful and within reason. Dick went as far as saying in the same Exchange he wasn`t apologizing either. Eye foraneye. 
> 
> Damian...well, he`s 13. He`s afraid he`s losing his father for good and the person he trusts the most in the world seemingly thinks that rescuing his father isn`t the way to do.


Dick was tied up and beaten and eventually murdered by Lex Luthor. The fact he was captured was televised. Jason didn't lift a finger to help him. All he did was crack jokes in Batman Eternal. He doesn't get to play hurt.

----------


## Aioros22

Potato-e potato-e. 

Editorial didn`t even gave him an actual funeral issue but that doesn`t detract the point Seeley was trying making in that Annual.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Potato-e potato-e. 
> 
> Editorial didn`t even gave him an actual funeral issue but that doesn`t detract the point Seeley was trying making in that Annual.


And the mocking? Was there even one panel where he seemed upset?

----------


## dietrich

> Damian...well, he`s 13. He`s afraid he`s losing his father for good and the person he trusts the most in the world seemingly thinks that rescuing his father isn`t the way to do.


Damian Wayne has conquered death twice his grandpa has lots of Lazarus pits that have power over death and he calls Death a grey area. Damian fearing losing his dad or Dick's love i can see but Damian getting hysterical because he fears losing his father to death is OC and something already covered in his solo and spoiler he views death as something people regularly return from. It's not permanent.

This was OC.

Jason had no reason to lay one on Dick either. i mean it's not like they were besties and the writer had it wrong Dick at that point owned Jason nothing not even the truth.

----------


## TheCape

The only reaction that made sense in Grayson #12 was Damian, everyone else.... not so much, like i expect then to be upset, but this guys pride thenselves in being pragmatic, the batfamily pull that kind of shit all the time.

----------


## Godlike13

Batgirl’s was ok.

----------


## yohyoi

> Who DOESN'T smack Dick around in that family?  Next time he'll get kicked by Bat-Cow.


Yeah. The Bat family is not known for their kindness. Dick is an exception, which is why everyone tend to respect him, sometimes even more than Bruce. Being trusted nearly as much as Superman is pretty much sainthood. Especially now, when the other Robins are in a dark path. It's good to be reminded of the light.

----------


## WonderNight

hey do you guys know what happened to dick after he went through the portal in metal#3

----------


## CPSparkles

petervnguyen

----------


## CPSparkles

by phantomchick

----------


## Shadow Myyst

I'm still waiting on Bernard to show us what his Nightwing looks like

----------


## yash

> Batgirl’s was ok.


 i still don't get the "dick grayson only disappointes" babs was going on about, if we follow new 52 then these to have not even dated each other and yet she went all taylor swift on him

----------


## Aioros22

> And the mocking? Was there even one panel where he seemed upset?


Maybe that`s why it didn`t go to print. It wouldn`t matter because Seeley`s dialogue of Jason in that Annual clearly overrides what was seen in those unused pages. 

Bruce and Dick are usually the ones who come up with the moral ground and trust talk so when both do something like that (which they did) on the other`s backs. why wouldn`t the guy who actually died and is the _most lectured on_ not have the right to be upset? All together joking about the death card is one thing, there`s an understanding and leeway, another is lacking trust. 

Writers are the ones who put Dick in this pedestal compared to the others so it shouldn`t surprise anyone that when he does something shitty, characters will call on him. Now, I agree he`s the guy who gets slapped the most but he also gets to be _written the most with the higher moral ground_. justifiably or not. Take and leave it. It`s the same with Bruce _I have rules that I don`t follow_ Wayne. 

Does that mean Dick can`t call others on their shit? Absolutely not, he should. So should Bruce. And...they kind of already do. Case in point, the Annual? Dick flat out said despite what he did, he wasn`t apologizing for his actions. Again, moral high ground versus a smack. They`re even.

----------


## Aioros22

> Damian Wayne has conquered death twice his grandpa has lots of Lazarus pits that have power over death and he calls Death a grey area. Damian fearing losing his dad or Dick's love i can see but Damian getting hysterical because he fears losing his father to death is OC and something already covered in his solo and spoiler he views death as something people regularly return from. It's not permanent.
> 
> This was OC.


I think it`s clear that as far as _Snyder is concerned_ this isn`t something that can be solved with a shower in the Lazarus. 




> Jason had no reason to lay one on Dick either. i mean it's not like they were besties and the writer had it wrong Dick at that point owned Jason nothing not even the truth.


Cool, then Bruce and Dick can leave the lecturing and moral ground at home from now on. What they can`t do is have the cake and the cheery on top. 

It`s fine by me either way.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Maybe that`s why it didn`t go to print. It wouldn`t matter because Seeley`s dialogue of Jason in that Annual clearly overrides what was seen in those unused pages. 
> 
> Bruce and Dick are usually the ones who come up with the moral ground and trust talk so when both do something like that (which they did) on the other`s backs. why wouldn`t the guy who actually died and is the _most lectured on_ not have the right to be upset? All together joking about the death card is one thing, there`s an understanding and leeway, another is lacking trust. 
> 
> Writers are the ones who put Dick in this pedestal compared to the others so it shouldn`t surprise anyone that when he does something shitty, characters will call on him. Now, I agree he`s the guy who gets slapped the most but he also gets to be _written the most with the higher moral ground_. justifiably or not. Take and leave it. It`s the same with Bruce _I have rules that I don`t follow_ Wayne. 
> 
> Does that mean Dick can`t call others on their shit? Absolutely not, he should. So should Bruce. And...they kind of already do. Case in point, the Annual? Dick flat out said despite what he did, he wasn`t apologizing for his actions. Again, moral high ground versus a smack. They`re even.


I'm not saying that Jason can't be pissed because Dick didn't tell them he was alive but physically assaulting him was completely out of order. If you ignore the fact that Dick _did_ die, which you seem intent on  :Smile: , and the altruistic reasons he joined Spyral, Jason could have had the moral high ground in their argument. He threw it away when he started throwing punches though :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah. The Bat family is not known for their kindness. Dick is an exception, which is why everyone tend to respect him, sometimes even more than Bruce. Being trusted nearly as much as Superman is pretty much sainthood. Especially now, when the other Robins are in a dark path. It's good to be reminded of the light.


If the other members of Dick's family respected him, they wouldn't be using him as a punching bag.

----------


## CPSparkles

Here’s a tired battered Nightwing for errbody




whereisfancybread

----------


## dietrich

> by phantomchick


Those are seriously nice

----------


## dietrich

Felt sad reading Nightwing #30.

----------


## nightbird

> Ideally violence is no better and I`m not defending it but I am saying it`s human to lash out in certain situations. Jason smacking one on Dick for lying about being dead, for having Bruce lie about it as well -  when he actually died, isn`t a vague thing he decided to do the moment he woke up. He felt disrespectful and within reason. Dick went as far as saying in the same Exchange he wasn`t apologizing either. Eye foraneye. 
> 
> Damian...well, he`s 13. He`s afraid he`s losing his father for good and the person he trusts the most in the world seemingly thinks that rescuing his father isn`t the way to do.


He said sorry and acknowledged that he hurt others. It wouldn't hurt Jason to say sorry too, after everyone calmed down, even if he technically didn't regret it. A proper eye for an eye.

----------


## Godlike13

It would hurt Jason to say sorry, it really would. Nice, no edge, Jason is so damn boring. The punch was weird because since when did Jason give a shit that much to justify such a reaction.

----------


## yohyoi

Titans and Nightwing will be in the same week this month. Cool. I would miss my weekly dose of Dick Grayson, but it does free a week to try new books.

Jason's best and most relevant moment was when he was a villain. He is stuck in the rut of irrelevancy and dullness. Even in the Bat familiy, he is not above the likes of Batwoman both in the comics world and in DC's priority list. He is just given to Lobdell to quench his rabid fanbase for these past years. He isn't even that popular. Look at his comics sales: Just barely above the line of cancellation for these past years. In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.

----------


## G-Potion

> Titans and Nightwing will be in the same week this month. Cool. I would miss my weekly dose of Dick Grayson, but it does free a week to try new books.
> 
> Jason's best and most relevant moment was when he was a villain. He is stuck in the rut of irrelevancy and dullness. Even in the Bat familiy, he is not above the likes of Batwoman both in the comics world and in DC's priority list. He is just given to Lobdell to quench his rabid fanbase for these past years. He isn't even that popular. Look at his comics sales: Just barely above the line of cancellation for these past years. In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


Wow. Think of Jason what you will but to call out the fanbase as full of teenage edgelords is going too far, baseless and frankly just rude.

Also you are the one stuck with the mindset that Jason is only relevant as a villainous edgelords. Jason fans are generally happy with where he's at now so stop contradicting yourself.

----------


## TheCape

Eh, Jason is popular and have a decent sized fanbase, hell he recieves a pretty good treatment of games. Althougth is true that DC doesn't seem willing to do more with him ib other media, outside of Under the Red Hood on repeat.
Also, the teeanage edgelords part is rude man, you shouldn't generalized.

----------


## magpieM

> In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


Teenage edgelords? Gosh...

----------


## CPSparkles

> Titans and Nightwing will be in the same week this month. Cool. I would miss my weekly dose of Dick Grayson, but it does free a week to try new books.
> 
> Jason's best and most relevant moment was when he was a villain. He is stuck in the rut of irrelevancy and dullness. Even in the Bat familiy, he is not above the likes of Batwoman both in the comics world and in DC's priority list. He is just given to Lobdell to quench his rabid fanbase for these past years. He isn't even that popular. Look at his comics sales: Just barely above the line of cancellation for these past years. In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


The thing with Jason is that the real deal doesn't match the image. He has a really cool look, looks like he is different from the rest of the bats but he isn't People come looking for Punisher but what they get is the bat kid with the most insecurities and daddy issue aside from maybe Damian.

He needs to be a villain. I believe he would sell more if he was still the guy from UTRH.
Also because every Robin aside from Tim has now died and risen the whole Robin who died thing just feels like the norm now. So that angle is dead now.

Jason's largest fan base want a guy whose guns kill bad people dead [not kneecap them] DC should capitalise on that.
Lobdell is writing a book full of heart but UTRH and the Arkham games are the things that drew fans. That's the Jason most know and love. It's the popular Jason

----------


## CPSparkles

Lightning Strikes

----------


## Badou

I would say that Jason is probably more popular outside of comics than he is in comics. He has a big following from "casual" fans if you want to use that term. He hasn't had a ton of appearances in media outside of comics, but the stuff he has appeared in reached a TON of people. The UTRH movie and Arkham video games are massively popular and I would argue they dwarf anything Dick has appeared in over that same time span, especially as Nightwing. Nightwing has just never had that "killer" appearance or adaptation in other media that catapults Nightwing into being more recognizable. It is one of the reasons the identity has been stuck where it is for so long. 

Jason is probably like Loki from Marvel if I had to find a comparison, who also has a much bigger following outside of comics. If Jason ever appears as Red Hood in the DCEU, especially if he is a villain for Dick's movie, I think it might be like a Thor and Loki situation where he might become just as popular as the main character depending on how the appearance is portrayed.

----------


## Aahz

> He needs to be a villain. I believe he would sell more if he was still the guy from UTRH.
> Also because every Robin aside from Tim has now died and risen the whole Robin who died thing just feels like the norm now. So that angle is dead now.


I don't think he needs to be a full viallain, and if they change him back to Battle for tghe cowl that would definitely cost them a lot of readers. But he should be written darker especially around the other Batfamily characters. Stuff like the Bat-Burger scene is not really helping the character (but as long as King is in charge we will probaly get more crap like this).

----------


## Red obin

> Titans and Nightwing will be in the same week this month. Cool. I would miss my weekly dose of Dick Grayson, but it does free a week to try new books.
> 
> Jason's best and most relevant moment was when he was a villain. He is stuck in the rut of irrelevancy and dullness. Even in the Bat familiy, he is not above the likes of Batwoman both in the comics world and in DC's priority list. He is just given to Lobdell to quench his rabid fanbase for these past years. He isn't even that popular. Look at his comics sales: Just barely above the line of cancellation for these past years. In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


I agree with this to extent and tried to voice my opinion but got shot down and butchered instantly. I wouldn't call his fanbase teenage edge lords as that will just irritate them and its not that extreme and that comes across as rude. It is quite often just those who find him 'cooler' and not a 'wuss' like the other robins. It is similar anti hero popularity that made deadpool and deathstroke and too a lesser extent harley popular. I find it more annoying his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out. Injustice 2 seems to have avoided this mostly luckily.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I agree with this to extent and tried to voice my opinion but got shot down and butchered instantly. I wouldn't call his fanbase teenage edge lords as that will just irritate them and its not that extreme and that comes across as rude. It is quite often just those who find him 'cooler' and not a 'wuss' like the other robins. It is similar anti hero popularity that made deadpool and deathstroke and too a lesser extent harley popular. I find it more annoying his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out. Injustice 2 seems to have avoided this mostly luckily.


Red Hood's Injustice 2 dialogue is very irritating to me. It's lie it's written by the tumblr crowd. We are still beating the same dead horse are we? It's as irritating as Damian's but at least Damian has some variety in that it's biology or Dick Grayson. If I have to hear about being dead one more time. Dude if the 13yr old can get over it walk it off. Who hasn't died?
Surely there's more to Jason than dying.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I don't think he needs to be a full viallain, and if they change him back to Battle for tghe cowl that would definitely cost them a lot of readers. But he should be written darker especially around the other Batfamily characters. Stuff like the Bat-Burger scene is not really helping the character (but as long as King is in charge we will probaly get more crap like this).


He was crazy like in Battle for the Cowl but they could have him not quite that crazy. Lose the whole impersonating Batman, let him be Red Hood a villain.
At the very least make him an anti hero and get rid of the bat brand on his chest.

----------


## Red obin

> Red Hood's Injustice 2 dialogue is very irritating to me. It's lie it's written by the tumblr crowd. We are still beating the same dead horse are we? It's as irritating as Damian's but at least Damian has some variety in that it's biology or Dick Grayson. If I have to hear about being dead one more time. Dude if the 13yr old can get over it walk it off. Who hasn't died?
> Surely there's more to Jason than dying.


yeah,that is true a lot injustice 2 character dialogue is one note, i was just happy it wasn't...

'grrr, I'm Red Hood and why didn't bruce avenge me.'

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree with this to extent and tried to voice my opinion but got shot down and butchered instantly. I wouldn't call his fanbase teenage edge lords as that will just irritate them and its not that extreme and that comes across as rude. It is quite often just those who find him 'cooler' and not a 'wuss' like the other robins. It is similar anti hero popularity that made deadpool and deathstroke and too a lesser extent harley popular. I find it more annoying his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out. Injustice 2 seems to have avoided this mostly luckily.


What I get from this is that you agreed with yohyoi who basically said Jason was only good as a villain and worthless as whatever he is now (meaning he's already moved on from his villain days, for better or worse). Then you turned around and said "his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out". Okay then. I don't even want to touch the latter half of your sentence because you basically just ignored his entire RHATO run since N52.

By the way, if you want to see development, don't look at media where Jason has just made _his first appearance_ jeez. Are you tired of seeing the Waynes' murder? Yes or no, it should start from there no?

----------


## Red obin

> What I get from this is that you agreed with yohyoi who basically said Jason was only good as a villain and worthless as whatever he is now (meaning he's already moved on from his villain days, for better or worse). Then you turned around and said "his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out". Okay then. I don't even want to touch the latter half of your sentence because you basically just ignored his entire RHATO run since N52.
> 
> By the way, if you want to see development, don't look at media where Jason has just made _his first appearance_ jeez. Are you tired of seeing the Waynes' murder? Yes or no, it should start from there no?


I believe you have misinterpreted me. Initially I was talking about Jason Todd fan's and YohYoi's opinion of them as edgy teenagers. Then I am talking about everything except his main series where he would develop ( even if it was poorly) under Lobdell but many writers refuse to move past this outside of this keeping him in a rut which he is only just getting out of. I have made this argument before so just condensed it this time, obviously whilst doing that I did not clearly explain myself.Even in the first issue of his rebirth series he almost ending up reverting back to his more villainous attitude even if it was a rouse. 
Also there is a difference between repeating a narrative and making a one note character in alternative media.

Also giving the wayne's as an example is awful, their role is very different as they are simply a plot device. one thing BvS did well was allude to this quickly without beating you over the head with it.
I don't want to instigate another argument about Jason Todd anyway as I quite like him as a character.

----------


## dietrich

> What I get from this is that you agreed with yohyoi who basically said Jason was only good as a villain and worthless as whatever he is now (meaning he's already moved on from his villain days, for better or worse). Then you turned around and said "his character does not move forward and we see the angry at batman story repeated hundreds of times in different media and it is way too played out". Okay then. I don't even want to touch the latter half of your sentence because you basically just ignored his entire RHATO run since N52.
> 
> By the way, if you want to see development, don't look at media where Jason has just made _his first appearance_ jeez. Are you tired of seeing the Waynes' murder? Yes or no, it should start from there no?


I'm sick of seeing the Waynes' murder in BvS I get why it was necessary to retread but if I never see pearls fall in an alley I'd be a happy camper.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm sick of seeing the Waynes' murder.


Well yes, many are. Regardless, if you want to do a retelling of Batman in a different medium, you almost always have to include it. What can you do. Similarly, Red Hood should start his story being in conflict with Batman. After that is done, direction can go wherever. Whether the writers "beat you over the head with it" depends on the focus of the story they want to tell.

----------


## Hizashi

> Felt sad reading Nightwing #30.


Why was that?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Idk, I'm perfectly happy with where Jason is now and with his relationship with Dick.

I do agree that Jason has had a lot more exposure as of late, but we are getting Titans and a Nightwing movie at some point, and also steady Nightwing appearances in stuff like Young Justice and the animated movies like the Judas Contract and now in Batman Ninja. Dick will be fine.

----------


## oasis1313

> Idk, I'm perfectly happy with where Jason is now and with his relationship with Dick.
> 
> I do agree that Jason has had a lot more exposure as of late, but we are getting Titans and a Nightwing movie at some point, and also steady Nightwing appearances in stuff like Young Justice and the animated movies like the Judas Contract and now in Batman Ninja. Dick will be fine.


Can't get enough of a good thing.

----------


## GeeksetPodcast

I specifically searched for this thread hahaha, i'm calling it 2018 and beyond is Nightwing time to shine, we're getting a movie, teen titans live action show and Young Justice.  It's about time the love spreads!!!

----------


## dietrich

> Why was that?


Because I'm gonna miss Seeley and you get that everything coming full circle for Dick and final issue feel while reading #30

----------


## Mr. White

Think while the reversion of Grayson to the Nightwing persona is “fine” (don’t like the new suit though, even the red was better) the scope of his adventures is a step back from the whole Spyral/Grayson angle. Think that should have continued. Nothing wrong with him being called Agent 39 (or was it 13 I forget) while dressed up in a variation of his Nightwing attire. 

What’s he doing these days anyways? Haven’t kept up following the end of Grayson.

----------


## L.H.

> Whats he doing these days anyways? Havent kept up following the end of Grayson.


Ex-agent 37 first joined the Court of Owls, to save Damian and put them down. He was helped by Raptor, but he was betrayed too, so they end becoming enemies. Following a conversation with Superman, he went to Bludhaven where he met the Run Offs (ex villain turned good) and Shawn Tsang, his new love interest. She was kid napped by professor Pyg and Dick and Damian went to save her, facing again doctor Hurt and meeting for the first time Deathwing. Dick was cutted by the blade of nothing, that made him see a part of the dark Multiverse (leads into Metal). Then he fought Blockbuster, back to Bludhaven. At the end he and Shawn broke up and he went with Helena in a mission. I think you should read at least this arc, called Spyral. Now he is back again to Bludhaven, facing the wrath of Raptor. Seeley is leaving after this last arc, and Humphries will take on. I think that's all, with as little spoiler as I could.

----------


## Mr. White

> Ex-agent 37 first joined the Court of Owls, to save Damian and put them down. He was helped by Raptor, but he was betrayed too, so they end becoming enemies. Following a conversation with Superman, he went to Bludhaven where he met the Run Offs (ex villain turned good) and Shawn Tsang, his new love interest. She was kid napped by professor Pyg and Dick and Damian went to save her, facing again doctor Hurt and meeting for the first time Deathwing. Dick was cutted by the blade of nothing, that made him see a part of the dark Multiverse (leads into Metal). Then he fought Blockbuster, back to Bludhaven. At the end he and Shawn broke up and he went with Helena in a mission. I think you should read at least this arc, called Spyral. Now he is back again to Bludhaven, facing the wrath of Raptor. Seeley is leaving after this last arc, and Humphries will take on. I think that's all, with as little spoiler as I could.


Thanks - quite succinct. My first reaction was 😕 though mainly cos I see the return to Blüdhaven a bit counter progressive. That said its still better than bein in Gotham. Im more for characters to grow and develop and the whole concept of Grayson (as a character) is that hes the one person that proper progress was made and stuck to (not being 100% literal but Im sure you get me).

----------


## nightbird

> I specifically searched for this thread hahaha, i'm calling it 2018 and beyond is Nightwing time to shine, we're getting a movie, teen titans live action show and Young Justice.  It's about time the love spreads!!!


I hope his role in YJ will be bigger and more important in season 3. Current DCAU also need to step up their game.

----------


## DamianBane

> I hope his role in YJ will be bigger and more important in season 3. Current DCAU also need to step up their game.


Agreed, he needs a bigger presence in the show

----------


## Aioros22

> It would hurt Jason to say sorry, it really would. Nice, no edge, Jason is so damn boring. The punch was weird because since when did Jason give a shit that much to justify such a reaction.


Yeah the punch was weird but people with the moral high ground isn`t. 

You like Dick on this pedestal, we get it.

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah the punch was weird but people with the moral high ground isn`t. 
> 
> You like Dick on this pedestal, we get it.


He was never on any pedestal, but good to know, that you see it like that.

----------


## Aioros22

> Titans and Nightwing will be in the same week this month. Cool. I would miss my weekly dose of Dick Grayson, but it does free a week to try new books.
> 
> Jason's best and most relevant moment was when he was a villain. He is stuck in the rut of irrelevancy and dullness. Even in the Bat familiy, he is not above the likes of Batwoman both in the comics world and in DC's priority list. He is just given to Lobdell to quench his rabid fanbase for these past years. He isn't even that popular. Look at his comics sales: Just barely above the line of cancellation for these past years. In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


Yohyoi, you can step down your high horse, thankyouverymuch. 

If success in other media translated directly into comics, Spiderman would be selling much better than it is. So would Black Panther. So would Wonder Woman.  Batman right now is an _anomaly in the comic market_ and even his sales aren`t the high they were under Snyder. They still remain popular to varying degrees because of how lasting and impactful they are in several media. Such is the case with Red Hood. 

Red Hood is undeniably popular given the response to the lack of promotion by DC _from the fans_. In fact, despite it and no ammount of calling his fanbase a _"bunch of teenager edgelords"_ changes that. His fanbase grew larger ever since he stopped being briefly misplaced in the villain catalogue (which to start with he only was in one or two storyarcs). You don`t have to like it (and if I recall you originally didn`t because it painted other characters like Tim as less popular in comparison, hum?) but that`s the way things are.

----------


## Aioros22

> He was never on any pedestal, but good to know, that you see it like that.


I see it like it is. Dick is usually sold like this golden boy that promotes inspiration and truth from everyone, Superman included. Now sure, this is on writers so I`m not flagging the character but to call it like there isn`t such a thing would be intlectually dishonest and that`s not my beach. 

And it`s on writers to, but they sure used Dick as a mouthpiece for crapping on Jason in the decades he was dead, it wasn`t just Bruce, I didn`t invented that either.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm not saying that Jason can't be pissed because Dick didn't tell them he was alive but physically assaulting him was completely out of order. If you ignore the fact that Dick _did_ die, which you seem intent on , and the altruistic reasons he joined Spyral, Jason could have had the moral high ground in their argument. He threw it away when he started throwing punches though


I don`t know. Does it serve Jason`s character being the guy who is pleaded with trust arguments and moral talks and then just...stands there as the same people go the distance and do those same sort of things? Dick lied about his fate and suddently shows up to basically ask their help in cracking a code under Spyral`s no-noses. 

Hey, maybe Jason did it to sell the "performance" for real  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

> He was never on any pedestal, but good to know, that you see it like that.


He is, why do you think that the idea of killing him was such a big deal in Infinite Crisis.




> And it`s on writers to, but they sure used Dick as a mouthpiece for crapping on Jason in the decades he was dead, it wasn`t just Bruce, I didn`t invented that either.


To be fair, it was all the Batfamily.

----------


## TheCape

> I don`t know. Does it serve Jason`s character being the guy who is pleaded with trust arguments and moral talks and then just...stands there as the same people go the distance and do those same sort of things? Dick lied about his fate and suddently shows up to basically ask their help in cracking a code under Spyral`s no-noses.


That he is pissed make sense, but being so emotional about it is the part that raise my eyebrows, insulting him and make snarky remarks about him. But puching, like he was super hurt by his actions, that does seem OCC for me. Tim's reaction doesn't make much sense either.

----------


## Aioros22

I know, I`m just including him for argument`s sake. 

And that`s not me crapping on the characters, is on the writers but let`s not pretend it didn`t happen either.

----------


## TheCape

> And that`s not me crapping on the characters, is on the writers but let`s not pretend it didn`t happen either.


Hey, i don't pretend man, Tim is my favorite Robin, but i always has problems with the Dixon run for the amount of victim blaming there.

----------


## Aioros22

> Hey, i don't pretend man, Tim is my favorite Robin, but i always has problems with the Dixon run for the amount of victim blaming there.


I mean in general terms, again for argument`s sake  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> That he is pissed make sense, but being so emotional about it is the part that raise my eyebrows, insulting him and make snarky remarks about him. But puching, like he was super hurt by his actions, that does seem OCC for me. Tim's reaction doesn't make much sense either.


I think the material we have shows that these two may indeed care for each other more than they ever let on but I`m not disagreeing if someone feels it was a bit OCC compared with some other story. It made sense with what they were writting the story for I think. We shouldn`t forget this came after similar mistrusting storylines like the aftermath of Death of The Family and Damian dying. 

Lords know I still cringe reading Bruce`s lecture about Trust right before they stormed Apokolips and Dick was just there playing Casper on their heads. In that narrative line it felt emotional but more of a "oh fvck this, not you too?"

----------


## L.H.

> Thanks - quite succinct. My first reaction was  though mainly cos I see the return to Blüdhaven a bit counter progressive. That said it’s still better than bein in Gotham. I’m more for characters to grow and develop and the whole concept of Grayson (as a character) is that he’s the “one” person that proper progress was made and stuck to (not being 100% literal but I’m sure you get me).


This Bludhaven is quite different from the Dixon's one. I think you should give it a chance. I'm not a greatest fan of Seeley, but he made  a great work with Nightwing's enemies, I like a lot Raptor and his new Blockbuster. He is also more than good in Dd dynamic, and in writing Helena and Tiger, too. I understand what your mean about Grayson, and this is clearly not the same, but is still a growing up. We all know how he wanted to came back as Nightwing and he is them both right now: Grayson and Nightwing. I look at this serie like another progress in Dick's life, and in a way I think it is. If you want, you can try Spyral and I also suggest you Blockbuster arc, my favorite, together with the prologue Split second.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah the punch was weird but people with the moral high ground isn`t. 
> 
> You like Dick on this pedestal, we get it.


Unless Dick starts cutting off heads and sticking them in duffel bags, Dick is always gonna have motal high ground when it comes to Jason. So no, not so weird. But so what? Goodie two shoes Jason is utterly irrelevant and boring anyway. He shouldn't give a shit. Jason and Dick were not close. 

What i don't like is Jason putting Dick on a pedestal.

----------


## Aioros22

> Unless Dick starts cutting off heads and sticking them in duffel bags, *Dick is always gonna have motal high ground when it comes to Jason*. So no, not so weird. But so what? Goodie two shoes Jason is utterly irrelevant and boring anyway. He shouldn't give a shit.


It`s not as artsy as beating a crook to a bloody pulp and using his blood to draw pretty pictures on your chest or cheating on your spouse with your ex and invite her for the wedding the next morning, I gather.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, because thats comparative to muder and mutilation.

----------


## Aioros22

The Joker bits and selling friends over aren't quite as asthethic. No, no, it`s my fault, I keep missing the Halo over his head.

----------


## Godlike13

I'm not quite sure why it bothers you so much that Dick has moral high ground on Jason. That doesn't make Dick a saint. Jason just sets to bar rather low. But he's suppose to. He's not suppose to adhere to the same moral standards as Dick. 
Jason violently hunted and mudered people, and even tried to muder members of the Bat family. He might be all who wants a hug now, but it does Jason no good to pretend that stuff never happened, or down play those actions by equating them to infidelity lol, to try to put him on the same moral ground as Dick.

----------


## nightbird

> He is, why do you think that the idea of killing him was such a big deal in Infinite Crisis.


Killing him was a big deal because it was planned to get rid of him and provoke strong feelings in fans, not because he on some kind of moral pedestal in DCU. 

Acting like Dick occasionally screwing up somehow excuses others' action is kinda a strange thing to me. Then calling it pedestal or halo makes it even more stranger.

----------


## Badou

So Klaus Janson is doing the art for #37 according to the solicit. I guess they really want to go more for a Daredevil vibe then.

Edit: Seems like it will be the flashback issue. I'm crossing my fingers that they allow him to give Dick a new non-shitty Robin costume. I'm so fucking sick of seeing that New 52 one every time he appears as Robin. That would at least endear me to Humphries run some as it doesn't seem all that interesting so far from the solicits.

----------


## Alycat

> So Klaus Janson is doing the art for #37 according to the solicit. I guess they really want to go more for a Daredevil vibe then.
> 
> Edit: Seems like it will be the flashback issue. I'm crossing my fingers that they allow him to give Dick a new non-shitty Robin costume. I'm so fucking sick of seeing that New 52 one every time he appears as Robin. That would at least endear me to Humphries run some as it doesn't seem all that interesting so far from the solicits.


You jinxed it. They are going to add a butt arrow to match the crotch one.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> You jinxed it. They are going to add a butt arrow to match the crotch one.


I'd be okay with that.

----------


## yohyoi

> So Klaus Janson is doing the art for #37 according to the solicit. I guess they really want to go more for a Daredevil vibe then.
> 
> Edit: Seems like it will be the flashback issue. I'm crossing my fingers that they allow him to give Dick a new non-shitty Robin costume. I'm so fucking sick of seeing that New 52 one every time he appears as Robin. That would at least endear me to Humphries run some as it doesn't seem all that interesting so far from the solicits.


DAMN, KLAUS JANSON!!! I'm excited. This is a sure buy for me.

Humphries' arc is looking to be more Batman than Rebirth Batman now. We will see how Dick Grayson thrive in a Batman and Daredevil environment again. If this is anywhere near Batman: The Black Mirror, we are looking at another modern comic classic.

----------


## yohyoi

> Killing him was a big deal because it was planned to get rid of him and provoke strong feelings in fans, not because he on some kind of moral pedestal in DCU. 
> 
> Acting like Dick occasionally screwing up somehow excuses others' action is kinda a strange thing to me. Then calling it pedestal or halo makes it even more stranger.


DiDio even planned him to come back darker and more violent. I don't understand Didio's inability to allow comic book characters to grow up and his praise of the dark and the edgy.

New52 sucked as a result. And also a big reason why Rebirth is heavily praised now. People want to read about superheroes when they buy superhero books. Not everything has to be a Vertigo book.

----------


## yohyoi

> I'm not quite sure why it bothers you so much that Dick has moral high ground on Jason. That doesn't make Dick a saint. Jason just sets to bar rather low. But he's suppose to. He's not suppose to adhere to the same moral standards as Dick. 
> Jason violently hunted and mudered people, and even tried to muder members of the Bat family. He might be all who wants a hug now, but it does Jason no good to pretend that stuff never happened, or down play those actions by equating them to infidelity lol, and try to put him on the same moral ground as Dick.


I don't get the hate with Dick's moral high ground in the Bat family except for Alfred. It's part of his character. Dick is the light and the one who went past his tragedy. He is the role model for every sidekick and young superhero. He is the worthy heir of the Bat.

No one complains when Superman is seen as the moral high ground, even when Clark made mistakes that affected the whole universe. I see jealousy with this complains.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm not quite sure why it bothers you so much that Dick has moral high ground on Jason. *That doesn't make Dick a saint.* Jason just sets to bar rather low. But he's suppose to. He's not suppose to adhere to the same moral standards as Dick. 
> Jason violently hunted and mudered people, and even tried to muder members of the Bat family. He might be all who wants a hug now, but it does Jason no good to pretend that stuff never happened, or down play those actions by equating them to infidelity lol, to try to put him on the same moral ground as Dick.


Ding ding!

In that case let`s pretend he doesn`t get to be called on when he shits on something as well, aye?

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## Aioros22

> I don't get the hate with Dick's moral high ground in the Bat family except for Alfred. It's part of his character. Dick is the light and the one who went past his tragedy. He is the role model for every sidekick and young superhero. He is the worthy heir of the Bat.
> 
> *No one complains when Superman is seen as the moral high ground, even when Clark made mistakes that affected the whole* universe. I see jealousy with this complains.


*Raises hand*

Just so we on the same page I also complain when Bat god is wriiten as an asshole who deserves to be bumped on his arse when he deseves it. So I guess I can point the finger at, right? Cool.

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing

----------


## Ivy_b

> I hope his role in YJ will be bigger and more important in season 3. Current DCAU also need to step up their game.


I hope so, but I dunno. With so many new characters and all the time jumps, I feel like the original team is being phased out, or at least greatly reduced while others take up more importance.

----------


## oasis1313

> I hope so, but I dunno. With so many new characters and all the time jumps, I feel like the original team is being phased out, or at least greatly reduced while others take up more importance.


I would agree with this observation.  It just feels like DC is telling us, "The check's in the mail", or "We'll still respect you in the morning."

----------


## Spartacus87

Should have known the, I guess I'll say "good times", wouldn't last.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I thought I should mention Gotham City Garage Chapter 7 was pretty fun, I'd recommend it. Really interested in where they're taking Catwoman, but Dick was the highlight for me. This writing team really do love making Dick jokes, which I can't help but find funny, and his interactions with Kara have been great so far. Art was solid, the whole book feels slightly rushed since every chapter is fairly short, and the next chapter should let us know if Dick will be a main character in this book or not (chances are he will be, but I'm not sure).

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/perezartist/stat...75626957082624

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bab1zqEgr8C/

----------


## WonderNight

Man I kinda what a orca/cheetah team up lol.

----------


## Alycat

> I thought I should mention Gotham City Garage Chapter 7 was pretty fun, I'd recommend it. Really interested in where they're taking Catwoman, but Dick was the highlight for me. This writing team really do love making Dick jokes, which I can't help but find funny, and his interactions with Kara have been great so far. Art was solid, the whole book feels slightly rushed since every chapter is fairly short, and the next chapter should let us know if Dick will be a main character in this book or not (chances are he will be, but I'm not sure).


I really like the art in the book too. Hopefully, it stays semi-entertaining and not drift into bombshells territory.

----------


## oasis1313

> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bab1zqEgr8C/


This is Javier's best piece of artwork yet--Dick doesn't look great but he sure did a fantastic job on Blockbuster and whoever's in the middle.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I think that's Orca in the middle.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

http://snackage.tumblr.com/

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yeah the punch was weird but people with the moral high ground isn`t. 
> 
> You like Dick on this pedestal, we get it.


No Aioros22 I don't believe anyone had him on a pedestal.
Lobdell Jason's own writer is the only person to officially put Dick on a pedestal when he made him the object of Jason's adoration.
with that in mind now I don't mind Jason getting hysterical over the Spyral deception. I would flip if someone i held in such high regard since childhood lied to me.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I thought I should mention Gotham City Garage Chapter 7 was pretty fun, I'd recommend it. Really interested in where they're taking Catwoman, but Dick was the highlight for me. This writing team really do love making Dick jokes, which I can't help but find funny, and his interactions with Kara have been great so far. Art was solid, the whole book feels slightly rushed since every chapter is fairly short, and the next chapter should let us know if Dick will be a main character in this book or not (chances are he will be, but I'm not sure).


He looked great in the book and I too noticed the dick jokes.

----------


## oasis1313

> No Aioros22 I don't believe anyone had him on a pedestal.
> Lobdell Jason's own writer is the only person to officially put Dick on a pedestal when he made him the object of Jason's adoration.
> with that in mind now I don't mind Jason getting hysterical over the Spyral deception. I would flip if someone i held in such high regard since childhood lied to me.


I thought Lobdell disliked Nightwing and didn't want to work with the character.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I thought Lobdell disliked Nightwing and didn't want to work with the character.


Well, he managed to use Dick to elevate Jason as a character in my eyes, while respecting Dick, and giving us a good story with great interactions all throughout it. I can't really ask for more, so regardless of whether Lobdell likes Dick or not, I think I like Lobdell. That's enough, isn't it?

*spoilers:*
He also created a potential Dick/Artemis ship, while also providing a crazy amount of material for fujo shippers of Dick and Jason (and maybe made me one), so there's that.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The Whovian

Hey guys, don't forget the Nightwing Rebirth Deluxe Edition comes out Tuesday.  :Smile:

----------


## Vinsanity

> I thought Lobdell disliked Nightwing and didn't want to work with the character.


Never heard that before.

----------


## Aioros22

> No Aioros22 I don't believe anyone had him on a pedestal.
> Lobdell Jason's own writer is the only person to officially put Dick on a pedestal when he made him the object of Jason's adoration.
> with that in mind now I don't mind Jason getting hysterical over the Spyral deception. I would flip if someone i held in such high regard since childhood lied to me.


Not dragging this further than it needs to but, nah, one writer and one scene? You think I would be pointing that out if that was all we got  :Wink: 

I don`t mind someone a higher moral ground on being held in high regard as long fans in general realize that nobody is above getting called or even smacked on, depending the situation and characters involved. Yeah you _should never_ on principle but like in the real world, that doesn`t always work to our more basic volations.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, he managed to use Dick to elevate Jason as a character in my eyes, while respecting Dick, and giving us a good story with great interactions all throughout it. I can't really ask for more, so regardless of whether Lobdell likes Dick or not, I think I like Lobdell. That's enough, isn't it?
> 
> *spoilers:*
> He also created a potential Dick/Artemis ship, while also providing a crazy amount of material for fujo shippers of Dick and Jason (and maybe made me one), so there's that.
> *end of spoilers*


I apologize:  I was thinking of Tynion, not Lobdell.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BajjVcugVAk/

----------


## TheCape

It always felt weird every time that i see Dick's eyes under his domino mask.

----------


## nightbird

> It always felt weird every time that i see Dick's eyes under his domino mask.


You prefer something like this? =) jk


I don't know, I always thought it's good way to show Dick's inner emotions.

----------


## Frontier

> It always felt weird every time that i see Dick's eyes under his domino mask.


This is one of the many things that bothered me about _Batman and Harley Quinn_  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

@nigthbird
Yes, i prefer that and they have been able to convey Dick's emotions many times in the past, so is not really a big trouble for me.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It's not exactly a new thing for Dick, you can see it being done as far back as that 2007 Brave and the Bold issue with Hawkman (#15, I think?). I also think Dick's pupils were visible during the NTT days, but since I've still yet to get around to that run, I can't say for sure. 

Anyways, I love it personally, as my biggest issue with domino masks after getting Grayson was that it covered the eyes up. I still maintain the strongest part of Fernandez' art in this run has been the close up faces, they're just so striking and powerful, and the eyes are the most important aspect of that, imo.

----------


## TheCape

I don't have a big problem with it, just find it weird and yes you are rigth, we could see his pupils in his Discowing costume, but i don't enjoy it with his classic costume that he got in O'Neil mini, it just look odd for me and is sort of distracting.

----------


## Frontier

> It's not exactly a new thing for Dick, you can see it being done as far back as that 2007 Brave and the Bold issue with Hawkman (#15, I think?). I also think Dick's pupils were visible during the NTT days, but since I've still yet to get around to that run, I can't say for sure. 
> 
> Anyways, I love it personally, as my biggest issue with domino masks after getting Grayson was that it covered the eyes up. I still maintain the strongest part of Fernandez' art in this run has been the close up faces, they're just so striking and powerful, and the eyes are the most important aspect of that, imo.


Like with Fernandez, Dick's pupils showing in the NTT Days would depend on the panel or moment. 

Although I think once he went Discowing he was predominantly shown without the white eyes.

----------


## oasis1313

I always felt the little domino masks were pretty much worthless for preserving a "secret identity."

----------


## nightbird

New Teen Titans Funko Pops.

----------


## Rac7d*

> New Teen Titans Funko Pops.


Lol Dick grayson wins

----------


## oasis1313

Awwwwww, and he's got his little mullet hairdo; these things are so cute.

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...74667675680770

----------


## TheCape

Man, that sounds like Badou's worst nigthmare :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Alycat

> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...74667675680770


FFFFFFFFFFFFF. Why???????

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...74667675680770


Oh man, this doesn't sound good.

----------


## Frontier

Sounds good to me  :Wink: .

----------


## Badou

> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...74667675680770


Doubling down on Bludhaven seems like the worst idea possible, but I can't say I'm surprised. DC wants Bludhaven and I figured that was a big reason why Seeley wanted off.




> Man, that sounds like Badou's worst nigthmare.


I just don't get it. There is nothing in Bludhaven but some fans think it is the most important thing ever for Dick.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Doubling down on Bludhaven seems like the worst idea possible, but I can't say I'm surprised. DC wants Bludhaven and I figured that was a big reason why Seeley wanted off.
> 
> 
> I just don't get it. There is nothing in Bludhaven but some fans think it is the most important thing ever for Dick.


I find that applicable to the majority of Dixon's run.

----------


## Frontier

I still like it  :Smile: .

----------


## nightbird

https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...98901093249024

+

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...arley-quinn-1/
I guess they again dragged Dick into HQ&B.

----------


## TheCape

> I find that applicable to the majority of Dixon's run.


Hey, i like Dixon's run, even if i have never feel particurlaryattached to Bludhaven. My main worry is about Dick's charactherization, i don't know if Humphries can do a good job with this.

----------


## TheCape

@nigthbird
Sounds like a nice compromise.

----------


## Godlike13

I'd bet that DCs new commitment to Bludhaven is about their plans outside of comics.

----------


## TheCape

> I'd bet that DC new commitment to Bludhaven is about their plans outside of comics.


Very likely, time would tell of is a good thing or not.

----------


## byrd156

> Sounds good to me .


I'm excited as well.  :Wink: 

If they keep at Bludhaven and really build up the city than it can fix everyone's complaints about the lack of personality to the city and what not.

----------


## nightbird

by Marcus To, tumblr.

----------


## Alycat

That guy on twitter sounds like me. 




> I'd bet that DCs new commitment to Bludhaven is about their plans outside of comics.


Of course. Although they never seem to give us the Starfire/Dick relationship that is everywhere but the comics.

----------


## The World

Eh, I'll give it a shot. Not writing nothing off before I read it. Been presently surprised by Seeley's bludhaven.

----------


## TheCape

> Of course. Although they never seem to give us the Starfire/Dick relationship that is everywhere but the comics.


That's likely because Nightwing is a part of Batman's world and somebody like Starfire doesn't fit there.

----------


## Rakiduam

> That's likely because Nightwing is a part of Batman's world and somebody like Starfire doesn't fit there.


That wasn't a problem before Dixon's run.

----------


## TheCape

> That wasn't a problem before Dixon's run.


The bat office took a hold on Nightwing since the mid 90s and never let it go since then, it was doomed when the Titans franchise flopped and before Dixon started his run (hell that was the whole reason of why the marriage was aborted).

----------


## Badou

> I'd bet that DCs new commitment to Bludhaven is about their plans outside of comics.


Very likely. They had to drag the Titans into Bludhaven for that Titans show because there isn't enough there for Dick or Nightwing to carry a show in Bludhaven, lol. 

I'm still hoping that the Nightwing movie doesn't involve Bludhaven, but sadly it probably will. 




> If they keep at Bludhaven and really build up the city than it can fix everyone's complaints about the lack of personality to the city and what not.


They've only had 20 years to turn Bludhaven into something and failed, but yeah, I'm sure all the need is a few more years to get it right.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

> They've only had 20 years to turn Bludhaven into something and failed, but yeah, I'm sure all the need is a few more years to get it right.*


Eh, Bludhaven lasted almost 10 years and the last 3 or 4 felt like Devin Grayson toring the whole thing apart little by little

----------


## Frontier

> They've only had 20 years to turn Bludhaven into something and failed, but yeah, I'm sure all the need is a few more years to get it right.


Well, it's comics. Never say never  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Badou

> Eh, Bludhaven lasted almost 10 years and the last 3 or 4 felt like Devin Grayson toring the whole thing apart little by little


20 year since it was introduced. Even if writers did't use Bludhaven it was still available for them so that is time they could have used to try and develop it, but they just didn't like it or had other ideas for very legitimate reasons.

----------


## brucekent12

I always thought Starfire wasn't used because the book was going with a more realistic crime feel, while Starfire was considered more science fiction.

----------


## Badou

> Well, it's comics. Never say never .


If a writer can make Bludhaven into something good for Dick then I'll shut up, but I haven't read it yet. So far all attempts have failed and the mountain to climb to make it work gets steeper and steeper with every attempt.  

Same with the Titans franchise to be honest. I don't think the modern Titans franchise is good for Dick either and I need to see a story to make it work for me to buy in. Until then I'll continue to be against them.

----------


## dietrich

I like Bludhaven. I loved Dick being a spy and Globe trotting but since we are back to Nightwing Dick needs  a city and Blud is as good as any.

A good writer makes it work Seeley gave the city a revamp making it feel exciting .

----------


## Badou

> Dick needs  a city


Why does he need a city? If you want him to have a "home base" then there is Gotham, Haly's Circus, and the Titans Tower. All are places Dick has a much deeper and emotional connection with than Bludhaven.

----------


## TheCape

> 20 year since it was introduced. Even if writers did't use Bludhaven it was still available for them so that is time they could have used to try and develop it, but they just didn't like it or had other ideas for very legitimate reasons.


If definetly wasn't available during the last years or Pre-Flashpoint with the whole town being nuke and almost everything that was built there in ashes (and i doubt that DC would want to undo that all that soon with Infinite Crisis being what it was) Higgins never used it but he was a fan of Dixon's run and seemed to be building Chicago in a similar vein (why he didn't use Haven i wouldn't know), i don't know what Seely and King thougth about the place, but i doubt that they dislike it, they just were doing another type of book with the characther, i hear that Seely has to go to Bludhaven for editorial decisions, but they gave him complete creative control of it, they really only tried to build the place during the Dixon's days , but nuked it didn't fit Dick's problems either. At the end, i'm not really the biggest fan of the place (how Dick is written is far more important for me that wathever setting they put him it), but i don't think that the place is completly worthless, the new version of Blockbuster was quite interesting if you ask me, but of course that just boilds down to personal opinion, frankly i'm far more worried for Dick's voice in this run that anything else.

----------


## Alycat

> That's likely because Nightwing is a part of Batman's world and somebody like Starfire doesn't fit there.


So they can give us a boring city that adds almost nothing, but god forbid there is an Alien princess who shows up and makes life exciting. It's like they can't help but run to the safest and most boring options possible.

----------


## TheCape

> So they can give us a boring city that adds almost nothing, but god forbid there is an Alien princess who shows up and makes life exciting.


Exactly, you cacth on quickly my friend  :Stick Out Tongue: .
Althougth one can still dream.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So they can give us a boring city that adds almost nothing, but god forbid there is an Alien princess who shows up and makes life exciting. It's like they can't help but run to the safest and most boring options possible.


superpowers like her makes the world lto hard to write, Sups only visit Gotham briefly when ever he does for a reason

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I tweeted Sam Humphries, I was worried that Dick wouldn't be doing any globe trotting anymore. His reply was "He's not chained to Blüdhaven but it is his home". Which is vague. That could just mean he heads back to Gotham for a weekend or to Manhattan to hang with the Titans. I also asked about Tiger and Midnighter. Which was ignored. I was worried about the change in writer anyway but his tweets have killed any modicum of enthusiasm I felt.

----------


## Badou

> If definetly wasn't available during the last years or Pre-Flashpoint with the whole town being nuke and almost everything that was built there in ashes (and i doubt that DC would want to undo that all that soon with Infinite Crisis being what it was) Higgins never used it but he was a fan of Dixon's run and seemed to be building Chicago in a similar vein (why he didn't use Haven i wouldn't know), i don't know what Seely and King thougth about the place, but i doubt that they dislike it, they just were doing another type of book with the characther, i hear that Seely has to go to Bludhaven for editorial decisions, but they gave him complete creative control of it, they really only tried to build the place during the Dixon's days , but nuked it didn't fit Dick's problems either. At the end, i'm not really the biggest fan of the place (how Dick is written is far more important for me that wathever setting they put him it), but i don't think that the place is completly worthless, the new version of Blockbuster was quite interesting if you ask me, but of course that just boilds down to personal opinion, frankly i'm far more worried for Dick's voice in this run that anything else.


They could have still used Bludhaven after the chemo nuke. Could have had stories about Dick trying to rebuilt it, but I understand that at that time DC planned to have Dick get killed off as well. So Bludhaven was kind of expendable since it was just a city readers knew of but there was nothing valuable in it. So it could be safely sacrificed for some shock value without losing anything. Then they later decided to have Dick become Batman and I can understand the argument for not using Bludhaven then as he had to be in Gotham. 

I imagine that Higgins loves Bludhaven given how much he loves the Dixon run. I guess he couldn't use it in the New 52 as no one, even DC, knew what was going on with it given the continuity problems. Continuity is still kind of a mess in areas. Seeley is on record as not liking Bludhaven. At least old Bludhaven. He only agreed to write Rebirth Nightwing I think if he could redesign it away from the "more gritty Gotham" identity, but regardless if Seeley was going to write Nightwing Dick was going to be forced to go back to Bludhaven for Rebirth. I think that if given true freedom Seeley would have continued with Spyral and had Dick go on a lot more crazy globetrotting adventures and done more Morrison inspired stories. That seemed to be where Seeley's heart was.

----------


## Alycat

> Exactly, you cacth on quickly my friend .
> Althougth one can still dream.


 Dreams just seem to lead to disspaointments  :Frown: 




> superpowers like her makes the world lto hard to write, Sups only visit Gotham briefly when ever he does for a reason


Really?  Dick needs something though. What separates him from all these other non-super powered dudes hanging out in cities. . I mean I guess your right since they can't even make normal characters interesting.

----------


## WonderNight

> Why does he need a city? If you want him to have a "home base" then there is Gotham, Haly's Circus, and the Titans Tower. All are places Dick has a much deeper and emotional connection with than Bludhaven.


I don't want dick in gotham, that is bruce's house and I dont want dick living under daddy.I know dc wants bludhaven, all i hope for is for dick to start interacting with dc's premier heros and villains.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bam5uP1Hdd_/

----------


## Aioros22

> I always felt the little domino masks were pretty much worthless for preserving a "secret identity."


Simbolic convention my man. 

And that Funko Red X is mine.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, like I've said before, I'm cool with Bludhaven as long as that's not the extent of Dick's reach. Before the New 52, he was one of the most important heroes around, both as Nightwing and as Batman, and that had little to do with Bludhaven and had a lot to do with his position in the DCU. Nightwing writers should be focused on giving the best stories they can, so if that involves Bludhaven, that's cool with me. It's Titans and other books like that which need to be elevating Dick again. So basically, even if we won't be getting globe-trotting stories not that Seeley is gone, I'm okay with it, but I just wish Dick was handling bigger enemies elsewhere as well. It was never the Nightwing book that was going to take him to Tamaran after all. 

Also, again, there's no reason to be using Kory's powers as a reason for why she's not allowed to appear in the Nightwing book. Dick is as good as he is because he can stand on equal footing with the JLA without having powers, that's literally his thing (and Batman's, of course). Kory showing up shouldn't automatically solve the problem, because that would mean the threat wasn't big enough for Dick anyways. And that also gets into the fact that people really don't want to be writing detective stories for Nightwing or Batman anymore and all it'd take to solve the problem is super-strength, and that's boring on its own. Lastly, dating Kory wouldn't mean she'd need to be living with Dick and appearing in every story, they could easily just be living separately, lol.

----------


## Ivy_b

> I tweeted Sam Humphries, I was worried that Dick wouldn't be doing any globe trotting anymore. His reply was "He's not chained to Blüdhaven but it is his home". Which is vague. That could just mean he heads back to Gotham for a weekend or to Manhattan to hang with the Titans. I also asked about Tiger and Midnighter. Which was ignored. I was worried about the change in writer anyway but his tweets have killed any modicum of enthusiasm I felt.


Midnighter hasn't been seen since the first rebirth issue, right? I miss the two interacting. And Midnighter being in any comic, since his miniseries ended. At least Tiger was seen a few times. I'd love for Midnighter, Tiger and Raptor to be characters that other writers use every now and again.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Midnighter hasn't been seen since the first rebirth issue, right? I miss the two interacting. And Midnighter being in any comic, since his miniseries ended. At least Tiger was seen a few times. I'd love for Midnighter, Tiger and Raptor to be characters that other writers use every now and again.


You're right about Midnighter. Tiger made an appearance in the last issue of Batman and Raptor popped up in Deathstroke, he was fantastic in it.

Ever since the Reboot Dick hasn't been able to make much progress. He revamps Amusement Mile, destroyed a few issues later. Moves to Chicago, has a promising friendship with Jen, She's never mentioned again etc. We keep hearing things about how the Titans are the best of friends but they spend most of their time bickering. I liked him being a spy, it was a unique niche for him in the Batfamily. I've really enjoyed Seeleys run but it does fell like Dick is just treading water. I have a horrible feeling he's going to be fighting increasingly dull threats to Blüdhaven, with another endless side plot of will-they-won't-they with Batgirl.

----------


## WonderNight

> You're right about Midnighter. Tiger made an appearance in the last issue of Batman and Raptor popped up in Deathstroke, he was fantastic in it.
> 
> Ever since the Reboot Dick hasn't been able to make much progress. He revamps Amusement Mile, destroyed a few issues later. Moves to Chicago, has a promising friendship with Jen, She's never mentioned again etc. We keep hearing things about how the Titans are the best of friends but they spend most of their time bickering. I liked him being a spy, it was a unique niche for him in the Batfamily. I've really enjoyed Seeleys run but it does fell like Dick is just treading water. I have a horrible feeling he's going to be fighting increasingly dull threats to Blüdhaven, with another endless side plot of will-they-won't-they with Batgirl.


yep to all that. is fun that dick cant get starfire in his book because of batworld but sup's, wondy and GL can show up in batman all the time funny.

----------


## Fergus

I swear if I hear one more person complain about Bludhaven. Dick had a lovely thing going with Spyral and Grayson but whiny fans put an end to that world now we're back to the same old finger strips and Bludhven and people still complain. Seeley tried to give us the best of both worlds. Something new but again fans still complained now seems Dick is about to go back in time where we were years ago. Hurrah for Nostalgia and  character stagnation Boo new directions and brave new worlds.

We gave up Agent 37 and Spyral being too quickly.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'd bet that DCs new commitment to Bludhaven is about their plans outside of comics.


This is likely. It's a shame, because there are so many better things they could be adapting instead. 
Bludhaven can be tolerable in a brief 2 hour-ish runtime I guess if the film is good. But on an ongoing, monthly basis it is torture. 




> *The bat office took a hold on Nightwing since the mid 90s and never let it go since then*, it was doomed when the Titans franchise flopped and before Dixon started his run (hell that was the whole reason of why the marriage was aborted).


Still the worst thing to ever happen to the Nightwing identity, and it's never really recovered. 




> I think that if given true freedom Seeley would have continued with Spyral and had Dick go on a lot more crazy globetrotting adventures and done more Morrison inspired stories. That seemed to be where Seeley's heart was.


His heart really was there. The fact that the globe trotting arcs, even if the subsequent ones were never as good as the first Raptor one, were the best is extremely telling. I like Shawn, but she could have worked just as well in Gotham for his occasional visits. 

Seeley is a smart man when it comes to his inspirations. Why would DC lean more towards Dixon as opposed to Morrison? 




> I swear if I hear one more person complain about Bludhaven. Dick had a lovely thing going with Spyral and Grayson but whiny fans put an end to that world now we're back to the same old finger strips and Bludhven and people still complain. Seeley tried to give us the best of both worlds. Something new but again fans still complained now seems Dick is about to go back in time where we were years ago. *Hurrah for Nostalgia and  character stagnation Boo new directions and brave new worlds.*
> 
> We gave up Agent 37 and Spyral being too quickly.


I find it amusing how many complaints there are around these parts that DC's nostalgia for the Silver/Bronze age is stagnating their universe*, and then this nostalgia trip for the Dixon days is doing just that for one of their longest lasting characters. And it's worse because while the Silver Age had an explosion of enduring characters and concepts, nothing much of note came from the Bludhaven era. 

*A complaint that makes even less sense when you realize there are countless characters and concepts running around today that weren't present in that period. I guess the mere presence of Barry, Hal, Babs as Batgirl and Kara is enough to make us travel back in time...

----------


## TheCape

> I find it amusing how many complaints there are around these parts that DC's nostalgia for the Silver/Bronze age is stagnating their universe*, and then this nostalgia trip for the Dixon days is doing just that for one of their longest lasting characters. And it's worse because while the Silver Age had an explosion of enduring characters and concepts, nothing much of note came from the Bludhaven era.*
> 
> *A complaint that makes even less sense when you realize there are countless characters and concepts running around today that weren't present in that period. I guess the mere presence of Barry, Hal, Babs as Batgirl and Kara is enough to make us travel back in time...


Nostalgia is a double sword weapon, it can be benefical or it can be a draw, i don't think any era is inherently better conceptually than the other, because that depends a lot of the writter, hell if took 7 years for Barry to have a decent Flash run since his ressurection (ok Dastarldly Death of the Rogues is a decent update of the Silver Age, but his potential went away after the reboot) and i still not sure if they know what they are doing with Babs. Honestly, i think that boths periods has their things that is better to forget and others that are worth saving, time would tell if Bludhaven is going to be one of the other.

----------


## Godlike13

> Still the worst thing to ever happen to the Nightwing identity, and it's never really recovered.


No it was not. Helped the Nightwing identity survive actually, and not end up like the other Titans.

----------


## Se7en

Never cared about Starfire, i'm glad she's not a part of Grayson in comics anymore, i wish it could be reflected in other media as well.

More bludhaven is terrible, i think i'll drop Nightwing. It's the last comic i was reading anyway.

----------


## Frontier

> Still the worst thing to ever happen to the Nightwing identity, and it's never really recovered.


I think plenty of good has come out of it, not the least of which being Nightwing being as important to the family as he is. 




> Seeley is a smart man when it comes to his inspirations. Why would DC lean more towards Dixon as opposed to Morrison?


I think he was going for a mix of both.

----------


## WonderNight

maybe nightwing should move to the justice league editorial, maybe that would help with some of problems he has. he would feel more connected to the greater dcu while still being in bludhaven.

----------


## Vinsanity

Bat Offices wasn't the problem.

The problem is now not really wanting to take risks. Grayson was a risk and it was a great but it did alienate a lot of fans who want the status quo which I mean we all want something we are familiar with and that's fair. 

I love the character but nostalgia from writers and fans kind of have caused an issue where risks aren't really taken and stuck with it. It is not only for this character though.

People disliked Superman in New 52, People disliked New 52 Wonder Girl, people disliked Babs being Batgirl again, Dick Grayson being a spy, The Titans not existing. It is just what it is.

----------


## Ivy_b

> You're right about Midnighter. Tiger made an appearance in the last issue of Batman and Raptor popped up in Deathstroke, he was fantastic in it.
> 
> Ever since the Reboot Dick hasn't been able to make much progress. He revamps Amusement Mile, destroyed a few issues later. Moves to Chicago, has a promising friendship with Jen, She's never mentioned again etc. We keep hearing things about how the Titans are the best of friends but they spend most of their time bickering. I liked him being a spy, it was a unique niche for him in the Batfamily. I've really enjoyed Seeleys run but it does fell like Dick is just treading water. I have a horrible feeling he's going to be fighting increasingly dull threats to Blüdhaven, with another endless side plot of will-they-won't-they with Batgirl.


I'm reading Deathstroke as well, so I enjoyed Raptor popping up there, haven't been reading Batman but I heard Tiger showed up there. Can somebody please add Midnighter (and Apollo) as a guest star to a comic sometime soon, please?

Titans is such a disappointing book for me, I might just drop it. 

I'm enjoying Nightwing, but yeah, Grayson was special and made Dick stand out more.

----------


## nightbird

lol

----------


## dietrich

Dick and Dami

----------


## nightbird

> Dick and Dami


So cute. Also plush batcow lol

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BarUKthg73v/

----------


## Godlike13

Another girlfriend must be beating him up.

----------


## dietrich

> lol


What is he wearing?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> What is he wearing?


A robin outfit.

----------


## nightbird

> Another girlfriend must be beating him up.


...ouch

10char.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> No it was not. Helped the Nightwing identity survive actually, and not end up like the other Titans.


I suppose that puts it in perspective. The Titans property was running out of gas, and God knows the rest of them aren't doing so hot either. Though I think that Wally, while he was the Flash, was doing better than any of them.

But I wish Nightwing had stayed in the wider DC universe and done something new instead of going back to the Bat-Clan. It's seemed like a step backwards that it's never really recovered from. 




> I think plenty of good has come out of it, not the least of which being Nightwing being as important to the family as he is. 
> 
> 
> I think he was going for a mix of both.


I think Dick being the original Robin is what makes him important, not being Nightwing. He got an ongoing series, which not many characters can claim, but not much of note actually came from it. I think the best use of him in the Bat-Family was easily being Batman II to Damian's Robin. Otherwise, he was just the nice pretty boy all the girls gushed over but didn't get to do anything besides Batman-lite stuff in discount Gotham. 

Seeley went for a mix of both, but I think if he had his way, the Dixon stuff wouldn't be around.

----------


## Godlike13

Over 20 years of consistent publication came from it. 20+ years of consistent, and ongoing, story content. Thats not a step back, thats the goal.

----------


## nightbird

Grayson by Kevin Wada
https://www.instagram.com/p/BarRmzNAIRG/?hl=en

----------


## KrustyKid

> Another girlfriend must be beating him up.


Lol. You always have some of the best comments Godlike13 :Big Grin:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> maybe nightwing should move to the justice league editorial, maybe that would help with some of problems he has. he would feel more connected to the greater dcu while still being in bludhaven.


This, 100%. As long as he's still chained to the Bat editors, he'll only be "the first Robin." At most, he'd be "the replacement Batman." He was the first (post-JL) teen hero, who grew up alongside the entire community of heroes. He was a leader worthy of the current generation and the inspiration for the next one. He is absolutely none of that right now.

That's not to say Bat editors are doing a bad job or anything, but the Batfamily is much too big for any one character to be important (except for Bruce, of course). At least with the JL editors, Dick would actually get to appear in other books and have other characters appear in his book. He'd feel like part of the community again, and that's so much better than being semi-important in one family of heroes.

----------


## WonderNight

> This, 100%. As long as he's still chained to the Bat editors, he'll only be "the first Robin." At most, he'd be "the replacement Batman." He was the first (post-JL) teen hero, who grew up alongside the entire community of heroes. He was a leader worthy of the current generation and the inspiration for the next one. He is absolutely none of that right now.
> 
> That's not to say Bat editors are doing a bad job or anything, but the Batfamily is much too big for any one character to be important (except for Bruce, of course). At least with the JL editors, Dick would actually get to appear in other books and have other characters appear in his book. He'd feel like part of the community again, and that's so much better than being semi-important in one family of heroes.


yeap dick feels like he's too much under batman to stand on his own. I mean look at the logo on his book, it's freaking batman's. how is that getting out batman's shadow and being your own man? lol watch the justice league action cartoon or injustice 2, dick has almost no consistent relationships or interactions with 95% of the characters(except batfam). with dick a still a little to much under batman and still titan, currently the only thing that separates dick as nightwing from his status as robin is bludhaven :Frown: . nightwing should be a bigger player in the wider dcu with dcu greatest and biggest heroes.

I'm probably the only one who would like this but I'd love for dick to work part time for argus(sense spyral is basically done and dc is more interested in argus) and be dc top spy, also the liaison for the league. basically steve trevors job part time with bludhaven.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Link to a preview of the new issue of Nightwing, via a small detour by Tim Seeleys Twitter.

https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley/...97224096956416

Sorry, I'm on my phone and I'm terrible with links anyway.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alycat

Gonna miss Seeley  :Frown:

----------


## dietrich

> Gonna miss Seeley


I'm already missing him

----------


## dietrich

> A robin outfit.


OMG you're right how did I miss that. I thought it was a turkey  :Big Grin: 
The look on his face lol

----------


## CPSparkles

Say Hello to my little friend Bruce and Robin Dick

----------


## nightbird



----------


## CPSparkles

Batman Black and White

----------


## CPSparkles

> 


Dick is the definition of a beautiful man. I need this.

Love that Damian is identified as Damian not by the his mantle

----------


## Hizashi

Would y'all read a book where Nightwing becomes a blue lantern? I always thought he would make sense as one, and his costume's colors could be inverted to show the change.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Would y'all read a book where Nightwing becomes a blue lantern? I always thought he would make sense as one, and his costume's colors could be inverted to show the change.


Of course! It bummed me out that Dick never really got to play a part as Batman in the main event of Blackest Night. I mean, I do think Barry was a good choice for a Blue Lantern in that story and it made sense since it was about characters who died and returned to life, but I still wish we could've gotten Blue Lantern DickBats.

----------


## Hizashi

> Of course! It bummed me out that Dick never really got to play a part as Batman in the main event of Blackest Night. I mean, I do think Barry was a good choice for a Blue Lantern in that story and it made sense since it was about characters who died and returned to life, but I still wish we could've gotten Blue Lantern DickBats.


He could work with Hal and the other earth GL's, go on a journey with Starfire, just explore the universe. I think it would be cool.

----------


## nightbird

> Would y'all read a book where Nightwing becomes a blue lantern? I always thought he would make sense as one, and his costume's colors could be inverted to show the change.


I still think green ring suits his personality more, but sure why not.

----------


## Hizashi

> I still think green ring suits his personality more, but sure why not.


You think so? Interesting, why?

I will say that I think his suit would work as most Lanterns, you can simply switch the color to whatever ring he's wearing.

----------


## jbmasta

> Of course! It bummed me out that Dick never really got to play a part as Batman in the main event of Blackest Night. I mean, I do think Barry was a good choice for a Blue Lantern in that story and it made sense since it was about characters who died and returned to life, but I still wish we could've gotten Blue Lantern DickBats.


Has Dick had much interaction with the Green Lantern mythos? The Batfamily getting rings would be interesting, seeing whose personality draws in which colour. At the end they give up the rings, because they can operate just fine without them.

----------


## Hizashi

> Has Dick had much interaction with the Green Lantern mythos? The Batfamily getting rings would be interesting, seeing whose personality draws in which colour. At the end they give up the rings, because they can operate just fine without them.


One reason I suggested a blue ring, besides the obvious color match and Dick's ability to inspire, is the fact that blue rings don't grant combative powers on their own, so Nightwing would still rely on his hand-to-hand training.

----------


## Frontier

> Has Dick had much interaction with the Green Lantern mythos? The Batfamily getting rings would be interesting, seeing whose personality draws in which colour. At the end they give up the rings, because they can operate just fine without them.


He teamed-up with Simon in a _Grayson_ annual.

----------


## Godlike13

IIRC there was a story where he was in contention for a ring.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Gonna miss Seeley


He did amazing stuff for Grayson and some good things for NW but I guess I'm ready for a change.

----------


## Hizashi

> IIRC there was a story where he was in contention for a ring.


Really? I gotta look that up.

----------


## Hizashi

> He did amazing stuff for Grayson and some good things for NW but I guess I'm ready for a change.


Agreed, Grayson was much better than it should've been, and Nightwing is good, but having new blood will be good, too. Plus, I really like Chang's art style.

----------


## Godlike13

> Really? I gotta look that up.


Action Comics 642

----------


## Alycat

My only problem is that the change seems to be leaning to all the stuff that I didn’t like about Nightwing.

----------


## Hizashi

> My only problem is that the change seems to be leaning to all the stuff that I didn’t like about Nightwing.


Do you mean Bludhaven? Or something else?

----------


## Alycat

> Do you mean Bludhaven? Or something else?


More Bludhaven, more worried about supporting cast. I bet police Dick is gonna make a come back too.

----------


## Hizashi

> More Bludhaven, more worried about supporting cast. I bet police Dick is gonna make a come back too.


I had hoped the arcs would take turns swapping settings between Bludhaven and some outside places.

----------


## oasis1313

> More Bludhaven, more worried about supporting cast. I bet police Dick is gonna make a come back too.


Oh, no!  I HATED Dick the Cop.  What I liked best was his blink-and-you-miss-it tenure as a museum curator.  It set him up for globetrotting stories, as well as basing him close enough to home--AND best of all, head curators don't punch a clock or keep regular work hours; nobody expects anything out of them in the way of productivity or punctuality.  It was perfect, and scuttled all too quickly (what--two issues).

----------


## Alycat

> I had hoped the arcs would take turns swapping settings between Bludhaven and some outside places.


The things Humphries is saying has me worried about the outside places aspect.




> Oh, no!  I HATED Dick the Cop.  What I liked best was his blink-and-you-miss-it tenure as a museum curator.  It set him up for globetrotting stories, as well as basing him close enough to home--AND best of all, head curators don't punch a clock or keep regular work hours; nobody expects anything out of them in the way of productivity or punctuality.  It was perfect, and scuttled all too quickly (what--two issues).


At this point, I think they should just leave him jobless. Adopted son of rich billionaire not working isn't some odd thing anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

Museum curator was so random. Dick should be a professorial gambler. I think there would be a good deal of story potential there.

----------


## Vinsanity

He should be an analyst because I don't know.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Museum curator was so random. Dick should be a professorial gambler. I think there would be a good deal of story potential there.


He's be great at poker, with his ability to read people's faces.

----------


## Hizashi

He should be Indiana Jones/Nathan Drake...

----------


## RedQueen

I think card dealer is a good idea if done right. Slightly a bit related, like how they made playing cards related to Gambit, I think card dealer could tie into Nightwing themes. He could even work underworld games ala the Iceberg, or just simply at a casino. They can make it shady or play it straight depending on the story so I think it has potential. But something new to the status quo and actual be stick in his mythos would be cool. 

I think superheroes having careers have gotta be suited toward the character. Matt Murdock being a lawyer plays a major role in his life. Barbara is a natural fit as librarian since they're reintroducing that again. Helena is a teacher etc... Having something stick and be a natural fit for Dick I think would be good.

----------


## nightbird

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaxJ_FXFs8y/

----------


## Fergus

Nothing beats spy but his current job in the casino is better than cop any day.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## nightbird

> You think so? Interesting, why?
> 
> I will say that I think his suit would work as most Lanterns, you can simply switch the color to whatever ring he's wearing.


I know people consider him as blue ring due to all "hope for the bright future" and while Dick is obviously represents it, but, imo, proactive nature of green ring suits him and his character better. And Dick has requested "willpower" to be one of Green Lanterns.

----------


## nightbird

credit:toixx

----------


## Hizashi

> I know people consider him as blue ring due to all "hope for the bright future" and while Dick is obviously represents it, but, imo, proactive nature of green ring suits him and his character better. And Dick has requested "willpower" to be one of Green Lanterns.


Green does make sense, it definitely seems like Dick doesn't know the meaning of the word quit.

----------


## oasis1313

> 


Awww, this is so sweet.  Dick is more like a dad to Damian than a brother, though.

----------


## Alycat

> Awww, this is so sweet.  Dick is more like a dad to Damian than a brother, though.


They've been like that for a while honestly.

----------


## dietrich

> 


Tom King knows marketing more than he knows Batman. I guess I'm buying the next issue then.

----------


## yohyoi

Guys and gals, have you seen the new variant covers?

Looks like Yasmine Putri will replace Casey Jones.





Looks good to me.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick, stop stabbing your ex-girlfriend.

Batgirl #17 Var.

----------


## yohyoi

Don't trust the girl with multiple backstories. She is hiding something.

Titans #17 Var.

----------


## yohyoi

I want Dick to be a celebrity. He is so handsome and charming. It's only natural he would have legion of fans in the DCU.

Guy1: "Man! That Nightwing dude really looks like that handsome pretty boy who just won an Oscar."

Guy2: "Dick Grayson?! Bruce Wayne's ward?! No way, dude, that guy won't leave his room. I heard he is doing both Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence at the same time."

Guy1: " Motherf**ker! What a lucky guy!"

Hahahahaha....

----------


## nightbird

> I want Dick to be a celebrity. He is so handsome and charming. It's only natural he would have legion of fans in the DCU.
> 
> Guy1: "Man! That Nightwing dude really looks like that handsome pretty boy who just won an Oscar."
> 
> Guy2: "Dick Grayson?! Bruce Wayne's ward?! No way, dude, that guy won't leave his room. I heard he is doing both Emma Stone and Jennifer Lawrence at the same time."
> 
> Guy1: " Motherf**ker! What a lucky guy!"
> 
> Hahahahaha....


His Nightwing identity would be busted by some paparazzi in 2 days  :Big Grin:

----------


## yohyoi

> His Nightwing identity would be busted by some paparazzi in 2 days


His butt may be his greatest weakness after all  :Frown: 

We can't hide that thing.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Dick, stop stabbing your ex-girlfriend.
> 
> Batgirl #17 Var.


Great cover but god dammit Dick, First Huntress and now this.

----------


## nightbird

> His butt may be his greatest weakness after all 
> 
> We can't hide that thing.


They will catch him climbing out of window  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

I what dick to be a night club owner in bludhaven. he's the young fun pretty boy ward of a billionaire. he should own a night club to spy and get close to both bludhavens elite and underground. plus it's a great way to get guest characters in like zatanna for a show, vixen for a fashion show, lois and Clark for a big ppv fight, bruce and lex for business events ect. I believe this work for dick in this bludhaven and being his own boss and being both spy and hero.

----------


## WonderNight

I also think this Bludhaven could work for dick but he needs something more that connects him and let him have a big and important impact on the greater dcu (not titans) like the leaguer do. but what could that be? :Confused:

----------


## nightbird



----------


## nightbird

> I also think this Bludhaven could work for dick but he needs something more that connects him and let him have a big and important impact on the greater dcu (not titans) like the leaguer do. but what could that be?


His own "family" under Nightwing brand.

----------


## WonderNight

> His own "family" under Nightwing brand.


yea but we all know dick is not allowed to move from up under daddy's house and be his man and start his own nightfamliy. Man I hate dc's whole "generations" it just boxes characters in. generations should be kids, teens and adults. that is once a character hits 18 or 21 they should be with the other adult heroes and not be the jr's.

----------


## Hizashi

> yea but we all know dick is not allowed to move from up under daddy's house and be his man and start his own nightfamliy. Man I hate dc's whole "generations" it just boxes characters in. generations should be kids, teens and adults. that is once a character hits 18 or 21 they should be with the other adult heroes and not be the jr's.


What issue was it where Dick was chastising the Justice League for their poor handling of the Teen Titans?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I don't know of Godlike13 was serious about his professional gambler thing but I liked it. It would be a quick and easy way to make money. It wouldn't take a whole lot of panel time, he could be financially independent from Bruce too. I don't buy that a black Jack dealer, bar tender etc can fund his personal life and his Nightwing activities.

Don't get me wrong, I liked when he was a cop but I'm over the forced nostalgia of rebirth. I want something new.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Ooh! I really love this  :Embarrassment: .

Also not half-bad redesigns/costumes for Dick and Kori  :Smile: .

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Hizashi

Scott Snyder wrote my favorite Batman story (Black Mirror) so I'm hoping Dick plays a bigger role in Metal than he has so far.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't know of Godlike13 was serious about his professional gambler thing but I liked it. It would be a quick and easy way to make money. It wouldn't take a whole lot of panel time, he could be financially independent from Bruce too. I don't buy that a black Jack dealer, bar tender etc can fund his personal life and his Nightwing activities.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I liked when he was a cop but I'm over the forced nostalgia of rebirth. I want something new.


Im dead serious. There's no commitments, its high risk, and it fits right in with Bludhaven being a gambling town.

----------


## Badou

How about he becomes a window cleaner. He is running around on tops of buildings and hanging off them anyway. All he needs to do is attach some squeegee's to his escrima sticks and he is all set.

----------


## Frontier

Man, Dick is starting to feel like Hal Jordan with all the different jobs  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## nightbird

Am I the only one who wants Dick to get degree in something? Yes? Okay... :Frown:

----------


## Hizashi

> Am I the only one who wants Dick to get degree in something? Yes? Okay...


Like what?

----------


## Rakiduam

Bachelor of Mathematics would be cool or a physics degree.

----------


## Alycat

Sounds horribly boring  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

I couldn't see Dick in school. Not sure he could sit still long enough.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Sounds horribly boring


Well, sure, it can be, but also they are both forms of translate movement.

----------


## Frontier

> I couldn't see Dick in school. Not sure he could sit still long enough.


That's kind of why I want to see him in school  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rakiduam

> That's kind of why I want to see him in school .


Me too, I think it's a pretty safe bet he would be bored out of his mind not the subject, but at the same time, it would be cool because it would take a lot of willpower and discipline to finish it.

I don't have too much hope it will ever happen, though.

----------


## Godlike13

What, so Nightwing vs boredom?

----------


## Alycat

I think after Damian died there was a flashback to Dick in school and yeah he was horribly bored.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Am I the only one who wants Dick to get degree in something? Yes? Okay...


A degree, in anything significant, would take years. Plus it pales in comparison to Babs owning her own clean energy company and Tim getting a scholarship to an Ivy league school, building self healing buildings and magic crime solving wrist computers. It would take too much panel time for too little a payoff. If I had to pick something for him to study though, it would be medicine. At least he could patch himself up.

----------


## Frontier

> A degree, in anything significant, would take years. *Plus it pales in comparison to Babs owning her own clean energy company and Tim getting a scholarship to an Ivy league school, building self healing buildings and magic crime solving wrist computers*. It would take too much panel time for too little a payoff. If I had to pick something for him to study though, it would be medicine. At least he could patch himself up.


Wow, when you list it all out like that  :Stick Out Tongue: ...

----------


## fanfan13

> where are these from?
> 
> Attachment 57083
> Attachment 57084
> 
> edit: Apparently they are from Batman 34.


I posted this in Damian thread, perhaps I can post it here too.

----------


## jbmasta

> I couldn't see Dick in school. Not sure he could sit still long enough.


He'd be a great teacher through. He has taught, gymnastics at St Hadrians. It was a class of young women, so he didn't have a tough time getting their attention or anything.

----------


## Godlike13

> where are these from?
> 
> Attachment 57083
> Attachment 57084
> Attachment 57085





> I posted this in Damian thread, perhaps I can post it here too.


Awesome.
...

----------


## Vinsanity

> I couldn't see Dick in school. Not sure he could sit still long enough.


Not like most people do anyway.

----------


## yohyoi

Rich kids don't have to attend classes. They just have to pass the tests. Sometimes they don't even have to pass the tests.

----------


## yohyoi

Also Dick has a genius level intellect. College will be a breeze to him.

----------


## nightbird

> A degree, in anything significant, would take years. Plus it pales in comparison to Babs owning her own clean energy company and Tim getting a scholarship to an Ivy league school, building self healing buildings and magic crime solving wrist computers. It would take too much panel time for too little a payoff. If I had to pick something for him to study though, it would be medicine. At least he could patch himself up.


What panel time? We still have no idea what Dick does in the day time anyway, so he can attend college off-panel. It doesn't need to be focus like in Babs' book. Also, I never thought that someone being smart should prevent Dick from being smart too (like he suppose to be). He doesn't need to match Batfamily's "smarties", but it would be nice for him to have a useful degree/mater/phD in something. I don't like that narrative that he needs to be a college drop out just because there is Babs and Tim. Medicine is not bad actully.

----------


## jbmasta

> Also Dick has a genius level intellect. College will be a breeze to him.


Plus girls. If Dick Grayson has one weakness it's women. Especially redheads.

----------


## TheCape

Pretty sure that Dick could pull a university degree without much problem, it would bore him to death, but he is disciplined enougth to do so. But Dick probably doesn't care that much about college, like almost anything that doesn't contribute with his hero life, i think that is less a question of "can he do it?" and more "would he cares or find ot usefull", honestly i think that he knows more than enougth about how to be a pretty effective crimefigther.

----------


## RedQueen

I could see him being a PI or something. But PI is a bit common in the genre and can negate the effect and allure of the detective work when he's Nightwing however. But it would be cool to get a more noir approach amongst the bat titles.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## WonderNight

> I could see him being a PI or something. But PI is a bit common in the genre and can negate the effect and allure of the detective work when he's Nightwing however. But it would be cool to get a more noir approach amongst the bat titles.


NOO! the last thing nightwing needs is to be more like batman.

----------


## Alycat

Make him work retail like the rest of us civilians.

----------


## WonderNight

> Make him work retail like the rest of us civilians.


or a gigole for the Amazons :Cool:

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> NOO! the last thing nightwing needs is to be more like batman.


Thing is though, when is the last time Batman did some actual detective work?

----------


## TheCape

> Thing is though, when is the last time Batman did some actual detective work?


When was the last time that anybody in this family did actual detective work, for that matter.

----------


## Frontier

> When was the last time that anybody in this family did actual detective work, for that matter.


That is a good question  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although the current _Batgirl_ arc with Dick has some sleuthing going on at least, both in flashbacks and out.

----------


## nightbird

IMG_0986.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba3xh1FgtXB/
IMG_0987.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUzK9bjgohw/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Make him work retail like the rest of us civilians.


no he would be good at that

----------


## oasis1313

Why not just make him a Wayne Corp Vice President of something?  He could do as much or as little as his heroics permit, he'd make a fantastic Public Relations poster boy and spokesman for Wayne Corp, and it'd be "keeping it in the family."

----------


## Badou

He doesn't really like taking money from Bruce. So I don't think he would want to work in his company either in some capacity.

----------


## Frontier

The only members of the family I see involved with Wayne Enterprises are Tim and Damian.

----------


## oasis1313

> He doesn't really like taking money from Bruce. So I don't think he would want to work in his company either in some capacity.


Of course he doesn't like taking money from Bruce.  But if you put him in front of a camera for a few minutes every once in a blue moon, the good PR he would generate with his looks and charisma would make him worth his weight in platinum to the company.  He doesn't have to be particularly interested in The Company--Bruce himself certainly isn't--but it is a means to an end.  Why not look out for the source of the money that buys the toys and opportunities to fight crime with?  I don't feel a holy calling to go to work at my job every day, but it supports me and my family.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

You guys will never agree on a normal job. And plus Dick doing anything with Wayne company just ties him more to Batman and less of his own man. But that's just my opinion. I say Spy as his part-time gig, but vigilante as his full-time job. And that leaves his civilian life as just down time. I just want Dick to be the go to spy guy again! Build the spy corner of the DCU around him  :Frown: . We never got what Tim & Tom promised!

----------


## Rac7d*

> The only members of the family I see involved with Wayne Enterprises are Tim and Damian.


Tim is not a Wayne, and should have no claim on batfunds, 

Choosing to be a superhero doesn't give him a spot in the will

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Tim is not a Wayne, and should have no claim on batfunds, 
> 
> Choosing to be a superhero doesn't give him a spot in the will


He was for a while, tho. It was the reboot that changed that. And Tim is obviously clever enough to be an asset to the company, as is Damian. Dick would be, too, if you know, he cared, lol. Back to Tim, he definitely should have a claim as he's more or less Bruce's son in the same way Dick is, and I mean Bruce is his legal guardian for a reason.

Idk about Dick and Wayne Enterprises., it could go against the current Robin Hood inspiration stuff which I really like. I mean, it could definitely be done, but the writer would have to care about that aspect. 

I think it was mentioned that Dick might end up a cop again in this thread, and if he does, I hope he quickly moves up to being a Detective so he'd get to deal with the bigger cases and gets to do detective work, instead of being a beat cop and having to deal with the corruption and such like he's already done. I mean, I wouldn't even mind if he rarely appeared as Nightwing within the book itself and most of the focus was on all the good he does as Dick, while other books like Titans have to carry the lion share of Nightwing badassery (assuming that book gets a new writer that would be up for that, of course). Does Bludhaven need a full time superhero protector if it has a full time supercop? One who could actually interact with people and give interviews to the media in a way even Nightwing can't? Idk, I kinda like the idea of Dick Grayson being Bludhaven's hero, while he's one of the world's greatest heroes as Nightwing (again, assuming a Titans writer who actually wants to elevate the team is in charge).

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Dick shouldn't be a part of Wayne Enterprises, but I could see him having a position with the Wayne Foundation.

Let him be a PR figurehead (low responsibility) while not putting him in an actual corporate role.

----------


## RedQueen

I think being a cop as well as a superhero can make for a bit of a tricky narrative in the sense it is a similar thing but one doesn't have the rules. It can also thin the line between Dick Grayson and Nightwing in that it is a similar thing and make the contrast lacking. Grayson was free of that in the way he wasn't burdened by neither from a story point of view, now that he's reclaimed it, there needs to be a way to make his life as Dick Grayson as interesting as his Nightwing side. Stretching on from the detective aspect would be cool, though I would prefer Private Investigator, it could be interesting.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He was for a while, tho. It was the reboot that changed that. And Tim is obviously clever enough to be an asset to the company, as is Damian. Dick would be, too, if you know, he cared, lol. Back to Tim, he definitely should have a claim as he's more or less Bruce's son in the same way Dick is, and I mean Bruce is his legal guardian for a reason.
> 
> Idk about Dick and Wayne Enterprises., it could go against the current Robin Hood inspiration stuff which I really like. I mean, it could definitely be done, but the writer would have to care about that aspect. 
> 
> I think it was mentioned that Dick might end up a cop again in this thread, and if he does, I hope he quickly moves up to being a Detective so he'd get to deal with the bigger cases and gets to do detective work, instead of being a beat cop and having to deal with the corruption and such like he's already done. I mean, I wouldn't even mind if he rarely appeared as Nightwing within the book itself and most of the focus was on all the good he does as Dick, while other books like Titans have to carry the lion share of Nightwing badassery (assuming that book gets a new writer that would be up for that, of course). Does Bludhaven need a full time superhero protector if it has a full time supercop? One who could actually interact with people and give interviews to the media in a way even Nightwing can't? Idk, I kinda like the idea of Dick Grayson being Bludhaven's hero, while he's one of the world's greatest heroes as Nightwing (again, assuming a Titans writer who actually wants to elevate the team is in charge).



It weird tho he has a family a father and mother.


Yeah dicks gonna be a cop, since he will be again in TITANS

----------


## Hizashi

I know there are many reasons why it wouldn't work, but I think it would be interesting if Dick was known to be Nightwing. Like, he still fights crime in the suit, but the public knows who's under the mask. Maybe if only for a single story arc or run.

----------


## Alycat

I know its silly to complain about realism in comics but Dick being a cop really stretched mine. Between the time restraints and gun he should've been fired after a week.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Tim is not a Wayne, and should have no claim on batfunds, 
> 
> Choosing to be a superhero doesn't give him a spot in the will


Uh. At the very least, he's Bruce's ward. He was referred to as that just recently. In the past, it's been more than that.

----------


## TheCape

> I know its silly to complain about realism in comics but Dick being a cop really stretched mine. Between the time restraints and gun he should've been fired after a week.


As somebody that liked Dick's as a cop, i actually agreed.

----------


## Hizashi

> I know its silly to complain about realism in comics but Dick being a cop really stretched mine. Between the time restraints and gun he should've been fired after a week.


How would he get any sleep? That's what always bothered me, since cops and detectives are notorious for overworking.

----------


## TheCape

> How would he get any sleep? That's what always bothered me, since cops and detectives are notorious for overworking.


Well, Dick is as obbsessed as Bruce about crime fighting, so i guest that not a lot.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick was overworked as cop. That was one of big issues that he had to deal with.

----------


## nightbird

IMG_0988.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba60gBwlyp-/

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim was a poster boy for Wayne Foundation. It was risky, because he gave interviews, press conferences and stuff. He appeared on TV too, so anyone could have recognised him, if something happens with his cowl.

----------


## SpiderWing20

If it wasn't such a big risk to the the batfam, I'd like to see Dick be a public hero. I think that would solve the personal life issue as far as a job. You can have him payrolled by Argus or hell even Batman Inc. that way he'll be able to globe trot as well as not be burdened with having to worry about work. Again one of the few things in the way of that is it'll connect too many threads.

----------


## Badou

> I know there are many reasons why it wouldn't work, but I think it would be interesting if Dick was known to be Nightwing. Like, he still fights crime in the suit, but the public knows who's under the mask. Maybe if only for a single story arc or run.


We just had this after Forever Evil. The whole world knew who Nightwing was. Unfortunately DC decided to not really do anything with it and just had Dick fake his death then go be a spy and then used a super satellite that will never be used again to make everyone forget who Nightwing was except for a few people like Bruce, lol.

----------


## oasis1313

> He was for a while, tho. It was the reboot that changed that. And Tim is obviously clever enough to be an asset to the company, as is Damian. Dick would be, too, if you know, he cared, lol. Back to Tim, he definitely should have a claim as he's more or less Bruce's son in the same way Dick is, and I mean Bruce is his legal guardian for a reason.
> 
> Idk about Dick and Wayne Enterprises., it could go against the current Robin Hood inspiration stuff which I really like. I mean, it could definitely be done, but the writer would have to care about that aspect. 
> 
> I think it was mentioned that Dick might end up a cop again in this thread, and if he does, I hope he quickly moves up to being a Detective so he'd get to deal with the bigger cases and gets to do detective work, instead of being a beat cop and having to deal with the corruption and such like he's already done. I mean, I wouldn't even mind if he rarely appeared as Nightwing within the book itself and most of the focus was on all the good he does as Dick, while other books like Titans have to carry the lion share of Nightwing badassery (assuming that book gets a new writer that would be up for that, of course). Does Bludhaven need a full time superhero protector if it has a full time supercop? One who could actually interact with people and give interviews to the media in a way even Nightwing can't? Idk, I kinda like the idea of Dick Grayson being Bludhaven's hero, while he's one of the world's greatest heroes as Nightwing (again, assuming a Titans writer who actually wants to elevate the team is in charge).


Bruce is still Tim's legal guardian?  Ugh.  Is he still "Timmy-Poo Wayne"?

----------


## Ascended

I always thought Dick would make a great teacher.

He's been one of DC's greatest leaders for decades. He's been a teacher to younger heroes for years. Seems like a natural fit for the character.

Make him a teacher at Gotham Academy, have him eventually rise up to the role of Headmaster. 

The hours aren't a total killer, especially if he gets some under-the-table help from Alfred when it comes to grading papers, and he gets the summer off. Teachers still put in some crazy hours, but they're not always on call like a cop is and they're out of work at a fairly early hour each day. Grayson could go home, knock out a class plan for the following day, grab a couple hours of sleep, and then head out to the rooftops for the night. Grab a couple hours of sleep early in the morning and be back in the classroom before the bell rings.

----------


## Alycat

> We just had this after Forever Evil. The whole world knew who Nightwing was. Unfortunately DC decided to not really do anything with it and just had Dick fake his death then go be a spy and then used a super satellite that will never be used again to make everyone forget who Nightwing was except for a few people like Bruce, lol.


I kinda wish we got a story where that backfired and everyone including the family forgot about him.

----------


## TheCape

> Bruce is still Tim's legal guardian? Ugh. Is he still "Timmy-Poo Wayne"?


Yes to the first and no to the second one.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Bruce is still Tim's legal guardian?  Ugh.  Is he still "Timmy-Poo Wayne"?


In the last issue of Tec Bruce said he was Tim's guardian. Tim also said the manor was the only place he felt like home. Which is weird because he has parents, right up until he ruined their lives and imprisoned them in his nightmare technology prison. Sorry, safe house. They seemed nice and supportive at his gymnastic events. I have no idea if all that's been scrapped.

----------


## TheCape

@LadyNightwing
If his pre-flashpoint origin is back, some of that stament would make sense.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I wish Tynion would clarify the situation with his parents, in the book. Not social media. Those two origins can't coexist.

----------


## TheCape

I hope it too, i would prefer to had Tim back to his Pre-IC status.



> I kinda wish we got a story where that backfired and everyone including the family forgot about him.


Huh, that could have been fun.

----------


## Hizashi

> I kinda wish we got a story where that backfired and everyone including the family forgot about him.


That's an even better idea. Someone get DC on the phone!

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Why we talkin bout Tim?

----------


## TheCape

> Why we talkin bout Tim?


Sligth deviation, it happens every now and then.

----------


## oasis1313

> I know its silly to complain about realism in comics but Dick being a cop really stretched mine. Between the time restraints and gun he should've been fired after a week.


As long as we're regurgitating old plotlines, why not bring back Starfire as a girlfriend for Dick?  It's been--what?--twenty or thirty years?

----------


## Hizashi

> As long as we're regurgitating old plotlines, why not bring back Starfire as a girlfriend for Dick?  It's been--what?--twenty or thirty years?


I could get behind that. How would you make it happen?

----------


## Alycat

> I hope it too, i would prefer to had Tim back to his Pre-IC status.
> 
> Huh, that could have been fun.





> That's an even better idea. Someone get DC on the phone!


I actually think it could be interesting with the right writer too.




> As long as we're regurgitating old plotlines, why not bring back Starfire as a girlfriend for Dick?  It's been--what?--twenty or thirty years?


Cause we aren't allowed anything good.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I always thought Dick would make a great teacher.
> 
> He's been one of DC's greatest leaders for decades. He's been a teacher to younger heroes for years. Seems like a natural fit for the character.
> 
> Make him a teacher at Gotham Academy, have him eventually rise up to the role of Headmaster. 
> 
> The hours aren't a total killer, especially if he gets some under-the-table help from Alfred when it comes to grading papers, and he gets the summer off. Teachers still put in some crazy hours, but they're not always on call like a cop is and they're out of work at a fairly early hour each day. Grayson could go home, knock out a class plan for the following day, grab a couple hours of sleep, and then head out to the rooftops for the night. Grab a couple hours of sleep early in the morning and be back in the classroom before the bell rings.


I really like this idea, but idk about Gotham Academy. It definitely could've saved that series if that entire cast just moved over to Nightwing and it'd even give us Nightwing and Robin team-ups and more Damian/Maps shipping, but at this point, after all the trouble Seeley went to bring Bludhaven back (and Humphries is seemingly running with that), it'd be a waste if he just moved back to Gotham. Maybe Dick could start his own private school with Wayne funds for less fortunate students? It'd give him a reason to interact with people like Shawn and Detective Svoboda (as they may be able to give him info on the background of his students and such). 




> As long as we're regurgitating old plotlines, why not bring back Starfire as a girlfriend for Dick?  It's been--what?--twenty or thirty years?


As that's literally what Rebirth is and we're finally getting all these heroes remarried, why not build back up to Dick and Kory finally getting married?

----------


## Frontier

> As long as we're regurgitating old plotlines, why not bring back Starfire as a girlfriend for Dick?  It's been--what?--twenty or thirty years?


I could see it happening if we get a consolidating of the Titans teams and Dick and Kori are on a team together. 

I don't think you can have those two together and not deal with their relationship at some point.

----------


## Alycat

Businesses are so confusing sometimes. Synergy can be bad, but it can also create improvements. People like a version of the Titans. People like Dick/Kori. And they completely squander the potential in the comics while other forms of media (cartoons, tv, video games) try to leverage it. I just don't understand.

----------


## Badou

Do people really want him back with Starfire? I feel like that romance has really run dry and Dick tends to get written pretty terribly when he is with her. Plus I don't think her character is very good. She is a big orange space alien from a race of aliens in the DCU that is horribly irrelevant. I don't think her character offers much utility in terms of stories.

But I guess if it means less Bludhaven then I'd stomach it in a heartbeat, lol.

----------


## Alycat

> Do people really want him back with Starfire? I feel like that romance has really run dry and Dick tends to get written pretty terribly when he is with her. Plus I don't think her character is very good. She is a big orange space alien from a race of aliens in the DCU that is horribly irrelevant. I don't think her character offers much utility in terms of stories.
> 
> But I guess if it means less Bludhaven then I'd stomach it in a heartbeat, lol.


Relationships are never going to be avoided. If I have to put up with one then I'll take it. I like Starfire just fine and tbh she works well as a supporting character which makes it less likely that one person has to look like crap in the relationship if done with a good writer. She has a fantastical aspect which is more than I can say for any of his human love interests.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Next relaunch cycle, I think a Nightwing & Starfire ongoing could work.

----------


## Badou

> Relationships are never going to be avoided. If I have to put up with one then I'll take it. I like Starfire just fine and tbh she works well as a supporting character which makes it less likely that one person has to look like crap in the relationship if done with a good writer. She has a fantastical aspect which is more than I can say for any of his human love interests.


His human love interests have more utility in terms of stories I think. The range of stories you can tell from over the top ones, grounded ones, and normal hero ones are more accessible. Starfire is a big orange alien that sticks out like a sore thumb. So you are limited in range of stories you can tell with them together. Dick tended to be written like a giant asshole when they were together because of all the problems with her being a giant orange space alien. Plus the Titans franchise is hot garbage and has been for a long, long time so the idea of anything good coming out of it seems more unlikely than anything from other areas.

 I don't care for Shawn as a love interest, but I am sad that a proper romance with Helena wasn't given a chance. Though I did think Seeley would end it quickly to clear the deck for the new writer. So I can't say I was surprised.

----------


## Alycat

> His human love interests have more utility in terms of stories I think. The range of stories you can tell from over the top ones, grounded ones, and normal hero ones are more accessible. Starfire is a big orange alien that sticks out like a sore thumb. So you are limited in range of stories you can tell with them together. Dick tended to be written like a giant asshole when they were together because of all the problems with her being a giant orange space alien. Plus the Titans franchise is hot garbage and has been for a long, long time so the idea of anything good coming out of it seems more unlikely than anything from other areas.
> 
>  I don't care for Shawn as a love interest, but I am sad that a proper romance with Helena wasn't given a chance. Though I did think Seeley would end it quickly to clear the deck for the new writer. So I can't say I was surprised.


I agree with you, but my only problem is that the only human love interest that is ever going to have a chance is Barbara, so those end up limited as well. Helena would be the best choice. Human, a minor character, similar skill set, different personality, but it will never get past an issue or two.

----------


## nightbird

I actully hated how Seeley ended Dick/Helena's (small) relationship.

----------


## nightbird

IMG_0990.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba2GFR7BVg3/

IMG_0989.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Baza5AiBYhW/
by Marcio Takara

----------


## Badou

> I agree with you, but my only problem is that the only human love interest that is ever going to have a chance is Barbara, so those end up limited as well. Helena would be the best choice. Human, a minor character, similar skill set, different personality, but it will never get past an issue or two.


I pretty much agree. I'm not really high on the Barbara romance right now, but I do think that if done properly there is more that could be done with it. Of course you know that the big problem with the two of them together is that each is a solo character. So they will always have problems as each individual writer will want to write their own stories for the two of them and that will make romance difficult for the two.

----------


## Alycat

Is there a comic relationship where two solo/major characters can do well together?  All the famous ones are main or solo/side character: Lois/Superman, Spiderman/MJ, Flash/Iris, Wally/Linda, Diana/Steve.

----------


## Aahz

> Is there a comic relationship where two solo/major characters can do well together?  All the famous ones are main or solo/side character: Lois/Superman, Spiderman/MJ, Flash/Iris, Wally/Linda, Diana/Steve.


Only case can think of is Green Arrow & Black Canary, but Black Canary had never really any success as a solo character.

The number of female solo characters (by which I mean characters that had long solo runs) is anyway quite short. In case of DC you have only Wonder Woman and several female Bat-characters.

----------


## CPSparkles

Happy Halloween

----------


## CPSparkles

I propose a poly relationship with Kory and Babs  I liked his relationship with both so much for different reasons but if I had to pick I say Kory as a love interest with Babs being that 1st love who will always be important in his life because they're almost like family.

----------


## Rac7d*

[QUOTE=Frontier;3204296]I could see it happening if we get a consolidating of the Titans teams and Dick and Kori are on a team together. 

I don't think you can have those two together and not deal with their relationship at some point.[/QUOT
Because she asked him if he loved her and he said no

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Do people really want him back with Starfire? I feel like that romance has really run dry and Dick tends to get written pretty terribly when he is with her. Plus I don't think her character is very good. She is a big orange space alien from a race of aliens in the DCU that is horribly irrelevant. I don't think her character offers much utility in terms of stories.
> 
> But I guess if it means less Bludhaven then I'd stomach it in a heartbeat, lol.


Which is mainly why I'm pro starfire. It gets him another opportunity to have proper DCU stories. Like i really love the idea of Starfire getting caught up in some crazy space shenanigans and Dick being along for the ride, that sounds more way more fun than Babs and Dick teaming up to take down some villain from their past in gotham. 

Honestly, I think at this point I would prefer Helena, since she opens the spy world back up.

What Dick really needs is a great writer on Titans. Someone with a vision for that book that is more than just "Hey remember how good this book was in the 80s, lets get them back together!".

----------


## oasis1313

I'm surprised that Gen-13'a Caitlyn Fairchild remains in mothballs.  She could fulfill the "giant girlfriend" requirement and has red hair.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> What Dick really needs is a great writer on Titans. Someone with a vision for that book that is more than just "Hey remember how good this book was in the 80s, lets get them back together!".


Absolutely. Dick used to be a major player in the DCU _because_ he founded and led the Titans. It's what got him leading the JLA during the Obsidian Age, it's what made Roy seek him out to lead the Outsiders, etc. And that was all before he became Batman. It was the Teen Titans that was an important team, and that's no longer true.

----------


## Ascended

I'd love to see Kori and Dick get back together.

I never cared for the Babs relationship in modern stories. It feels like two grown people trying to rekindle a love from junior high. I find it just slightly creepy and not at all lined up with their current, adult lives. Plus the logistics of it are nearly impossible; when two characters hold solo books you can't expect those writers to work around a major relationship they don't have full control over. The only way to make this work is if the same writer handles both Batgirl and Nightwing. 

Helena I like well enough but she never struck me as anything long-term for Dick; just a friend with benefits who occasionally crosses his path.

Kori on the other hand, brings stuff to the table I like. Her relationship with Dick is in the past same as Babs, but not as far back; they were at least young adults when they were together, not kids. She's not a solo star so her development can be handled under the Nightwing writer, and the relationship can actually grow and evolve. That's a level of freedom Babs doesn't offer. She also brings something different to the hero-action table than another set of grappling hooks and utility belts. And Kori's a fascinating character with a lot of potential and a lot of depth (largely untapped by writers outside of Wolfman). Detractors will just throw the "sex bunny" label around or call her an airheaded bimbo, but they're not doing her justice. Kori's survived slavery, abuse, betrayal, exile, and heartbreak without letting it ruin her. She's far from an idiot, and if she wears her heart on her sleeve.....so does Dick. They mirror each other in a lot of ways.

And one of the things I really like about Nightwing and miss seeing these days, is that his world is a lot wider and bigger than just Gotham. Moreso than anyone else in the Bat-clan Dick has built a world beyond Bruce's stomping grounds. He has a family in the Titans, his name is partially inspired by Superman, and for several years he spent almost all his time outside of Gotham. Nightwing's more of a global hero than Batman is despite Bruce's involvement with the League and its an aspect of Nightwing I wish they'd utilize more. And putting Dick with Kori helps reinforce that wider, big picture view. 




> Absolutely. Dick used to be a major player in the DCU _because_ he founded and led the Titans. It's what got him leading the JLA during the Obsidian Age, it's what made Roy seek him out to lead the Outsiders, etc. And that was all before he became Batman. It was the Teen Titans that was an important team, and that's no longer true.


Yes, this! This is what I'm saying.

----------


## Frontier

> Do people really want him back with Starfire? I feel like that romance has really run dry and Dick tends to get written pretty terribly when he is with her. Plus I don't think her character is very good. She is a big orange space alien from a race of aliens in the DCU that is horribly irrelevant. I don't think her character offers much utility in terms of stories.
> 
> But I guess if it means less Bludhaven then I'd stomach it in a heartbeat, lol.


We've barely gotten any Dick/Kori in the comics in the last decade or so I can't see that well as dry compared to the constant DickxBabs drama that gets rehashed every now and then.

She's also one of DC's most popular heroines and her and Dick is probably more well-recognized as a couple then Dick and Babs are, despite the fact that they haven't been together since forever. 

Frankly I feel like we're due another take on their romance at this point. 



> Because she asked him if he loved her and he said no


And that didn't stop the drama (looking at their time on the Justice League together).

----------


## Hizashi

> I'd love to see Kori and Dick get back together.
> 
> I never cared for the Babs relationship in modern stories. It feels like two grown people trying to rekindle a love from junior high. I find it just slightly creepy and not at all lined up with their current, adult lives. Plus the logistics of it are nearly impossible; when two characters hold solo books you can't expect those writers to work around a major relationship they don't have full control over. The only way to make this work is if the same writer handles both Batgirl and Nightwing. 
> 
> Helena I like well enough but she never struck me as anything long-term for Dick; just a friend with benefits who occasionally crosses his path.
> 
> Kori on the other hand, brings stuff to the table I like. Her relationship with Dick is in the past same as Babs, but not as far back; they were at least young adults when they were together, not kids. She's not a solo star so her development can be handled under the Nightwing writer, and the relationship can actually grow and evolve. That's a level of freedom Babs doesn't offer. She also brings something different to the hero-action table than another set of grappling hooks and utility belts. And Kori's a fascinating character with a lot of potential and a lot of depth (largely untapped by writers outside of Wolfman). Detractors will just throw the "sex bunny" label around or call her an airheaded bimbo, but they're not doing her justice. Kori's survived slavery, abuse, betrayal, exile, and heartbreak without letting it ruin her. She's far from an idiot, and if she wears her heart on her sleeve.....so does Dick. They mirror each other in a lot of ways.
> 
> And one of the things I really like about Nightwing and miss seeing these days, is that his world is a lot wider and bigger than just Gotham. Moreso than anyone else in the Bat-clan Dick has built a world beyond Bruce's stomping grounds. He has a family in the Titans, his name is partially inspired by Superman, and for several years he spent almost all his time outside of Gotham. Nightwing's more of a global hero than Batman is despite Bruce's involvement with the League and its an aspect of Nightwing I wish they'd utilize more. And putting Dick with Kori helps reinforce that wider, big picture view. 
> ...


You make an excellent argument for Dick and Kori to get back together. I'd like to see it as well.

----------


## Godlike13

Kory is a orange alien that shines. I love her, but she'd stand out like a sore thumb in Nightwing's solo world. Not to mention she's like Superman level powerful.

----------


## Frontier

> Kory is a orange alien that shines. I love her, but she'd stand out like a sore thumb in Nightwing's solo world. Not to mention she's like Superman level powerful.


I think they would work better together in the Titans then they would in Dick's solo book.

----------


## TheCape

I would talk about Dick's love life later, but in the case of Kory, i think that a holo ring would serve to hide her just fine.

----------


## nightbird

> I would talk about Dick's love life later, but in the case of Kory, i think that a holo ring would serve to hide her just fine.


Holo ring would mask her look, not powers. It would be hard to incorporate her into Nighwting street-level solo stories. 

I personally think that Dick/Kory just another unnecessary nostalgia.

----------


## TheCape

I was talking about her just visiting to chat, without helping him with crime figthing.

As for Dick's relationships, i prefer him single but i would talk about the other 2 later.

----------


## TheCape

Ok here it goes my take in Dick's relationships with Kory and Babs.

Dick and Kory was mostly about growing and maturing, at least for Dick, Richard at that period of time was in complicate emotional place when he was trying to be his own man outside of Bruce, but couln't help himself about imitate him in most of his methods, althought Bruce is far from being an abusive father figure that some people paint him, he wasn't the most emotionally available guy out there and because how young he was, it took a long time for him to enter in the father mindset and by that point it was a bit late (Bruce and Dick more often than not feel like Big/Lil Brother duo most of the time, even with some of the fatherly undertones), so Kory being more open and free about his emotions but as pasionate about heroism as much as him, it naturally attracted him and helping him to become more open about himself. Of course it wasn't all raibow and colors, Dick still has many personal problems that often make him act like a dick toward everyone (hell everytime that Dick is upset or stressed he tends to lash out all his anger and frustation with the people that is close to him, it was a pretty consistent flaw of him in the pre-flashpoint universe), their main problem was Kory being less open to kill enemies (wich i thought that was pretty ridiculous and the whole batfamily should get over this one when it come to his allies, but whatever) and that whole drama with the marriage on Tamaran, but outside of that, they usually had a pretty lighthearted relationship, before the whole incident with Titans Hunt they were fine, to the point that Dick find weird that they never seem to have a fight outside of combat and the fact that he could talk her about having wet dreams with Raven, without generating the typical drama, that's some big thrust there. They eventually grow apart for many in and outside of story reasons, but i enjoyed for what it was.

Dick and Babs, is a more complicated tale because their story is full of retcons and changes that weren't originally there, but i would stick with the Post-Zero Hour continuity, when they started their thing, you had a teen that has a crush in a women that was few years older than him and she find it cute but not really interested, after years of going in separate ways and doing their own thing, they meet again as very diffent and more mature people and discovered some chemistry beetween the 2, going throught a slowburn process that was pretty satisfactory in the bat-titles, the main thing that i like beetween the 2 was the trust and honeslty (for the most part, god knows how huge that amount of "not dating" was) and after some rocky moments, they got together at the end of Dixon's run. Then Devin Grayson came and has Dick being a total ass toward Barbara for most of her run and the relationship was buried (i don't take that proposal into account, because we know the actual reasons behind it), with some occasional "what could have been?" moment popping out here and then. Funny enought the relationship ended for similar reasons than Dick and Kory, thanks to editorial decisions.

Now, do i think that is worth to explore this 2 relationships again in a modern context? sure, do i think that DC or any current writter has the talent to do something tatesfull and interesting for any of the 2? fuck no, i don't trust mainstream comics to writte any kind of semi decent relationshio this days that don't go beyond nostalgia pieces and revisiting old glories (just look the current arc of Batgirl, hard pass if you ask me).

So, i like those 2 couples. but at this point i had so little faith with the company that i just want Dick to do superhero stuff, is the only thing that DC knows how to write these days anyway.

Also, for Dick and Helena: "So sour and dark and perfect", that's my view, guest what my opinion of that is  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

> We've barely gotten any Dick/Kori in the comics in the last decade or so I can't see that well as dry compared to the constant DickxBabs drama that gets rehashed every now and then.
> 
> She's also one of DC's most popular heroines and her and Dick is probably more well-recognized as a couple then Dick and Babs are, despite the fact that they haven't been together since forever. 
> 
> Frankly I feel like we're due another take on their romance at this point.


They are dry because there is nothing really left with the two of them to tell. All the story lines with the two of them have been tapped which is the problem. I don't really see what could be done with them unless you just want to rehash Wolfman's stories. So the two get back together; then what? More family drama with Starfire? More angst from Dick because she is an alien? Would they get engaged again? The only thing different now is that she dated Roy for a few years, but I found that disgusting since I'm not a fan of Roy. I just don't see where their romance goes. 

She is a giant orange space alien that doesn't fit in with Dick's solo, she is from a race of aliens that are irrelevant in the DCU, she is connected to the horrific Titans franchise that has been a mess for decades, and Dick tended to get written like a horrible asshole when he was with her. I'm just not that interested in revisiting it. I'm tried of Dick and Babs getting teased too, but we haven't seen the two of them date when both were active heroes before. So it isn't like all aspects of their relationship have been used. 

But I'd rather not see him get back with either. I still would like to see a new romance with a different DCU hero and try to expand Dick's connections beyond Gotham and the Titans again. That is what I've wanted to see for a long, long time.

----------


## Ascended

> Kory is a orange alien that shines. I love her, but she'd stand out like a sore thumb in Nightwing's solo world. Not to mention she's like Superman level powerful.


The way they've treated Dick since the mid 90's? Absolutely she'd stand out.

I can't speak for others here, but for me that's part of the larger problem.

Back around the time Dixon started Dick's first solo, (or thereabouts, its been a while) there was a concentrated effort to bring Dick back closer to Gotham's orbit and they downplayed/removed the more fantastical aspects of Dick's life. Dick's involvement with the Titans was (mostly, at the time) over. You almost never saw Wally or Roy show up, not even to just have a couple beers, even though they're two of Dick's closest friends. His world got a lot smaller.

The adventures of Nightwing have been very much in-line with the modern-style Gotham flavor ever since. But I believe that Nightwing should be closer to the Brave and the Bold cartoon from a few years back. 

Nightwing shouldn't just be protecting a gloomy and miserable Gotham-lite city from unsettling Arkham-worthy foes and the occasional terrorist. He should be doing those things, absolutely, but he should also be sneaking into a hostile alien space armada to steal critical invasion plans. He should be traveling back to the Jurassic era to prevent Chronos from raising an army of dinosaurs to unleash on New Orleans. He should be trapped on earth-3, having to play the role of his evil counterpart, trying to get home before Owlman or Ultraman realize his true nature and eviscerate him.

This is why Grayson was so good. It got Dick back out into a crazy world full of crazy, comic book-y things, without forgetting his Gotham roots. Living up to his potential.

Nightwing should be bigger than one city and a narrow venue of stories. He should be a little bit ridiculous and fun and over the top as well as being the accomplished heir of the Bat. He's got a good dose of Superman's narrative DNA in him and keeping him in a relatively grim Batman mold is holding him back. We do get to see him do crazy stuff like this in Titans....but its not represented in his solo, so does it really count? Why am I reading a Nightwing book and only getting half of the character? It's not like you have to read "Superman" to read about Clark Kent, and "Action" to read about Superman, so why is it this way for Dick? 

Y'know what I'd love to do? Drop Nightwing in Metropolis' Suicide Slum for a year or two (real time, not a forever status quo). Its a bad neighborhood in the shadow of the greatest city on earth. It wallows in the run-off; alien slave trade, super-tech black market, smuggling, cults, you name it. Pulling a string in Suicide Slum could lead you to Apokolips, Khandaq, Oolong Island, Opal City, Atlantis...virtually anywhere in the DCU. It's not a nice place to be, and its problems run deep in the socio-political structure. And Superman largely stays out, because his presence rarely makes things better. I'd love to see Nightwing in that setting; I think it hits the right balance of light and dark. 

And in that setting, Kori would fit right in.  :Smile: 

sorry for the long rant, its a little late.

----------


## Frontier

> They are dry because there is nothing really left with the two of them to tell. All the story lines with the two of them have been tapped which is the problem. I don't really see what could be done with them unless you just want to rehash Wolfman's stories. So the two get back together; then what? More family drama with Starfire? More angst from Dick because she is an alien? Would they get engaged again? The only thing different now is that she dated Roy for a few years, but I found that disgusting since I'm not a fan of Roy. I just don't see where their romance goes.


I dunno, I think if there was an attempt at a modern take on their relationship there would probably be a lot to develop or explore that Wolfman didn't get too, especially since they're both adults now and in very different places compared to when they were together in the Titans.   

And Roy's awesome. I wasn't crazy about him dating Kori, but he's still cool  :Smile: .



> She is a giant orange space alien that doesn't fit in with Dick's solo, she is from a race of aliens that are irrelevant in the DCU, she is connected to the horrific Titans franchise that has been a mess for decades, and Dick tended to get written like a horrible asshole when he was with her. I'm just not that interested in revisiting it. I'm tried of Dick and Babs getting teased too, but we haven't seen the two of them date when both were active heroes before. So it isn't like all aspects of their relationship have been used.


Her race is no more irrelevant then most of the space aliens populating the DCU, and even if the Titans aren't at the same quality they used to be they are still a very recognizable group and brand that Dick and Kori both helped make into the name it is today. 

I think in this day and age Dick would probably not be written as a horrible jerk to Kori and get away with it, unless it was to justify breaking them up (like with Shawn and Helena). 



> But I'd rather not see him get back with either. I still would like to see a new romance with a different DCU hero and try to expand Dick's connections beyond Gotham and the Titans again. That is what I've wanted to see for a long, long time.


It might be fun, but I'm just not really into random Superhero hookups even if it would probably fit well with Dick.

----------


## WonderNight

I'm with ascended and badou. if dc wants dick so close to batman and the titans just make him robin again and be done with it, nightwing should be justice as much superman as batman and should a premier hero who fights alongside other premier heroes. no more of this batman-lite Justice league-lite bull.

That's why between babs and starfire I go with starfire be dick would be more connected to the wider dcu. but the character I want dick to be with is in my pic :Embarrassment:  but dc would never ever ever ever lot that happen :Frown: .

----------


## Godlike13

> I'm with ascended and badou. if dc wants dick so close to batman and the titans just make him robin again and be done with it, nightwing should be justice as much superman as batman and should a premier hero who fights alongside other premier heroes. no more of this batman-lite Justice league-lite bull.
> 
> That's why between babs and starfire I go with starfire be dick would be more connected to the wider dcu. but the character I want dick to be with is in my pic but dc would never ever ever ever lot that happen.


Because Starfire is connected to the wider DCU? 

And JL leads to what exactly? Right now there is probably more opportunity with the Titans. The Titans team just needs to not to be so irrelevant and uninspired, but revitalized and made into a premier, and more contemporary, super team with in the DCU. Where Dick isn't going to be marginalized because "he has a solo".

----------


## WonderNight

> Because Starfire is connected to the wider DCU?


between babs and starfire? yes! I didn't say he had to be in the league just a team that's not a mini me JL.

----------


## Vinsanity

#TeamJesseChambers #TeamBetty

Honestly out of the Babs or Kori, I think you can do more with Babs these days. 

Anyway I read the new NW issue and eeeehhhhh I'm ready for a change in writer.

----------


## Godlike13

> between babs and starfire? yes! I didn't say he had to be in the league just a team that's not a mini me JL.


Except Starfire is not more connected then Babs. Most if not all of Starfire's connections are Titans related.

----------


## Hizashi

> I'm with ascended and badou. if dc wants dick so close to batman and the titans just make him robin again and be done with it, nightwing should be justice as much superman as batman and should a premier hero who fights alongside other premier heroes. no more of this batman-lite Justice league-lite bull.
> 
> That's why between babs and starfire I go with starfire be dick would be more connected to the wider dcu. but the character I want dick to be with is in my pic but dc would never ever ever ever lot that happen.


Nightwing and Wonder Woman? Any specific reasons?

----------


## WonderNight

not much just nightwing and wonder woman are my favorite male and female characters plus I think they could carry dc's spy corner though a.r.g.u.s like cap/widow did in the movies. also it would be just fun to see dick bringing alot young fun and energy into diana's life and diana bringing maturity and status into dick's life.

It would also be a cross generational relationship, so it would have more impact on the wider dcu. like how would it affect batman, superman, donna troy, steve trevor, babs and starfire even tim and cassie's relationship a little. on top of that dick finally gets a mature and stable relationship and diana finally gets a partner who is big enough hang with her but not overshadow her. 

Plus the slightly older more powerful woman with the younger hot male model/eye Candy is a great power dynamic for DC and diana/dick. If you want an idea of how there personality's would look together just go watch Aladdin, dick/aladdin and diana/jasmine.

but I know dc wont let diana/dick even be in the room. So  :Frown:  :Frown:  :Mad: .

----------


## Frontier

> #TeamJesseChambers #TeamBetty
> 
> Honestly out of the Babs or Kori, I think you can do more with Babs these days. 
> 
> Anyway I read the new NW issue and eeeehhhhh I'm ready for a change in writer.


I don't see Jesse with anyone but Rick, long-term. 

It might be fun to see him and Bette on the same page together though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't see Jesse with anyone but Rick, long-term. 
> 
> It might be fun to see him and Bette on the same page together though .


Yeah, I agree. I would like to see her team up with Dick again just in general though, she had history with him after the Titans and Donna's JLA. 

It was surprising to see Bette back in the last issue of 'Tec, tbh. I kinda thought she'd just be forgotten by the DCU at large except a few appearances in Batwoman. Maybe we can actually get Dick and Bette without the latter chasing after the former and it being a more equal relationship, a little bit like what happened in the Young Justice tie-in Players arc.

----------


## nightbird

> not much just nightwing and wonder woman are my favorite male and female characters plus I think they could carry dc's spy corner though a.r.g.u.s like cap/widow did in the movies. also it would be just fun to see dick bringing alot young fun and energy into diana's life and diana bringing maturity and status into dick's life.
> 
> It would also be a cross generational relationship, so it would have more impact on the wider dcu. like how would it affect batman, superman, donna troy, steve trevor, babs and starfire even tim and cassie's relationship a little. on top of that dick finally gets a mature and stable relationship and diana finally gets a partner who is big enough hang with her but not overshadow her. 
> 
> Plus the slightly older more powerful woman with the younger hot male model/eye Candy is a great power dynamic for DC and diana/dick. If you want an idea of how there personality's would look together just go watch Aladdin, dick/aladdin and diana/jasmine.
> 
> but I know dc wont let diana/dick even be in the room.


I like your crackships  :Wink:  Power Girl and Nightwing still my favorite though.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, I agree. I would like to see her team up with Dick again just in general though, she had history with him after the Titans and Donna's JLA.


I'd be down for that too (of course, we need Jesse back first)  :Smile: 




> It was surprising to see Bette back in the last issue of 'Tec, tbh. I kinda thought she'd just be forgotten by the DCU at large except a few appearances in Batwoman. Maybe we can actually get Dick and Bette without the latter chasing after the former and it being a more equal relationship, a little bit like what happened in the Young Justice tie-in Players arc.


Or some fun flirting. Fun flirting is always fun  :Wink: .

----------


## Hizashi

> not much just nightwing and wonder woman are my favorite male and female characters plus I think they could carry dc's spy corner though a.r.g.u.s like cap/widow did in the movies. also it would be just fun to see dick bringing alot young fun and energy into diana's life and diana bringing maturity and status into dick's life.
> 
> It would also be a cross generational relationship, so it would have more impact on the wider dcu. like how would it affect batman, superman, donna troy, steve trevor, babs and starfire even tim and cassie's relationship a little. on top of that dick finally gets a mature and stable relationship and diana finally gets a partner who is big enough hang with her but not overshadow her. 
> 
> Plus the slightly older more powerful woman with the younger hot male model/eye Candy is a great power dynamic for DC and diana/dick. If you want an idea of how there personality's would look together just go watch Aladdin, dick/aladdin and diana/jasmine.
> 
> but I know dc wont let diana/dick even be in the room. So .


Thanks for the response.

Okay, I guess I see where you're coming from. Why not?

----------


## oasis1313

While we're speaking of trying to pump a dry well, I've long felt that Bludhaven is long tapped out for fresh storylines.  But I do like the idea of Princess Diana--QUEEN of the Cougars.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> While we're speaking of trying to pump a dry well, I've long felt that Bludhaven is long tapped out for fresh storylines.  But I do like the idea of Princess Diana--QUEEN of the Cougars.


I'm sure people said the same thing about Metropolis 50 years ago, too. Writers just need to expand their scope, and editors need to find and encourage those type of writers.

Also, I definitely think Dick and Diana could've worked in the early years of the New 52 before the SM/WW romance, but it'd be weird now with Diana's history restored. If were going with someone older, I'd prefer someone like Zatanna (for what I assume are obvious reasons).

----------


## Hizashi

> While we're speaking of trying to pump a dry well, I've long felt that Bludhaven is long tapped out for fresh storylines.  But I do like the idea of Princess Diana--QUEEN of the Cougars.


How would such a relationship work in-universe?

----------


## Frontier

> Also, I definitely think Dick and Diana could've worked in the early years of the New 52 before the SM/WW romance, but it'd be weird now with Diana's history restored. If were going with someone older, I'd prefer someone like Zatanna (for what I assume are obvious reasons).


That would feel really weird now that they've re-connected Zatanna and Batman and established they knew each other as kids.

----------


## Ascended

> While we're speaking of trying to pump a dry well, I've long felt that Bludhaven is long tapped out for fresh storylines.  But I do like the idea of Princess Diana--QUEEN of the Cougars.


Well, I do think Dick needs a city to call home, and I'd rather he stay out of Gotham. So he's gotta live *somewhere* and it seems to me Bludhaven is as good as anywhere else. Though I did like the idea of him in Chicago; that's a great town with a lot of personality. 

Where would you put him? Or would you have him be a globe trotter full time?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Except Starfire is not more connected then Babs. Most if not all of Starfire's connections are Titans related.


she isa rather limited chracters, i wish she was friends with supergirl or somthing

----------


## RedQueen

It sounds like people want him to have a more "connected" love interest, in that sphere or something, but I'd don't know who'd fit the bill without making it weird, on the top of my head Black Canary fits the bill, but she is off limits for a multitude of reasons and it would just be plain wrong, but idk maybe Hawkgirl could be interesting. 

I know the Titans are a famous team but they are pretty insular in the way they only really interact with each other. 




> she isa rather limited chracters, i wish she was friends with supergirl or somthing


I'm pretty sure Babs is friends with Supergirl.

----------


## Frontier

> It sounds like people want him to have a more "connected" love interest, in that sphere or something, but I'd don't know who'd fit the bill without making it weird, on the top of my head Black Canary fits the bill, but she is off limits for a multitude of reasons and it would just be plain wrong, but idk maybe Hawkgirl could be interesting.


The problem with hooking anyone up with Hawkgirl is that they'll inevitably end up just being a placeholder before she gets back with Hawkman. 

It would be the same with Black Canary and anybody not named Green Arrow (plus, as you said, it would just be wrong).

----------


## TheCape

> The problem with hooking anyone up with Hawkgirl is that they'll inevitably end up just being a placeholder before she gets back with Hawkman.*


Yeah, i don't think that anyone wants Dick to go for the same path than Roy  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, i don't think that anyone wants Dick to go for the same path than Roy


Y'know, I was actually going to mention the whole thing with Roy as an example  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

> Y'know, I was actually going to mention the whole thing with Roy as an example*.


Poor guy, always going for the wrong girl :Frown:

----------


## Ascended

Well, if you're not going to revisit a former love interest, why does the new one have to be an established character at all? Why not create a new one custom made for Nightwing? 

Or have him date several girls at once, and see where that takes you. I think you could manage it without making Dick look like a total douche if he stays honest and upfront with everyone and everyone's on the same page. See where that goes and let the narrative write itself.

If it does have to be an established character.....

How about Power Girl? She's around the same age (I think? Karen is weird). She's got a fierce temper and plenty of confidence and attitude, which seems to be a draw for Dick. No love interest to speak of (unlike Hawkgirl or Dinah). She's tall, mouthy, smart, powerful, gorgeous.....seems like Dick's type. And they're both the most objectified heroes of their respective genders in the DCU. Sure, she's probably off the table until the JSA officially return (didn't stop Harley though) but that'll happen soon enough. I'd love to see this just because it'd be sort of like Dick marrying into the Super-family, and I've wanted to see his ties to Clark built up ever since I discovered that they *have* ties, while going through some old Silver Age collection (no idea which one).

If someone closer to Gotham....how about Roxy Rocket? She's got bad girl appeal, she can keep up with Dick, she's under the Bat editorial umbrella, and she's basically a blank slate to build a character on. Plus; redhead. And even though she's only shown up for like, ten minutes total across all cartoons and comics, the people who know about her love her.

And of course there's always Harley. Former sidekick to the Bat's worst enemy and now gratuitously violent anti-hero and Mayoral candidate for NYC. They'd be like the Montague and Capulet of DC!

Nah, just kidding about that last one. Dont throw me outta the forums!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

Power Girl is a character I've been wanting to see Dick with since before the New 52, but it is tough to keep caring about it given the character doesn't currently exist in the main DCU, lol. 

But she checks all the boxes I'd like to see in a new love interest. She is an already established hero with some name value, she is connected to the JSA and Superman family so you have opportunities for Dick to have more interactions outside of the Batman family and Titans, and she has a outgoing and powerful personality that I think would mesh well with Dick's. 

One of the things I do like about Starfire is that she is a super powered character and I always felt Dick worked well when paired with a super powered character. So that is an aspect I liked as well about Power Girl. Also she is kryptonian, which is an alien race in the DCU that matters, but unlike Starfire she looks like a normal human. So she can blend in easier and you can have them do normal date things as well without her sticking out. Then I'd love to see Dick more connected with the Superman family too and that is a way to do that. 

But given that the character doesn't exist currently in the DCU it is tough to see anything happen with it.

----------


## Alycat

I wish they didn't de-age Supergirl cause she could've been the one. But nope

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Well, I do think Dick needs a city to call home, and I'd rather he stay out of Gotham. So he's gotta live *somewhere* and it seems to me Bludhaven is as good as anywhere else. Though I did like the idea of him in Chicago; that's a great town with a lot of personality. 
> 
> Where would you put him? Or would you have him be a globe trotter full time?


Maybe Dick doesn't need a city but a smaller town, so he emulates Gotham and Metropolis less.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I wish they didn't de-age Supergirl cause she could've been the one. But nope


How old is Supergirl in Rebirth anyway?

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1001.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbBVX_dFzC7/

----------


## Ascended

> Power Girl is a character I've been wanting to see Dick with since before the New 52, but it is tough to keep caring about it given the character doesn't currently exist in the main DCU, lol.


She showed up in Harley Quinn, at least. And she'll be back with the JSA I'd imagine, and that's coming fairly soon (I think).




> Maybe Dick doesn't need a city but a smaller town, so he emulates Gotham and Metropolis less.


That'd be an interesting idea. Are you suggesting something like Smallville, an *actual* small town, or a smaller neighborhood in a larger city like Burnside?

----------


## OBrianTallent

Wouldn't putting him in a small town kind of limit his operations?  He's not like Superman or Wonder Woman who can fly to the emergency at hand, he's pretty much a stationary character.  Unless they did a road trip type story where he traveled the country (which could be a cool story I think) but even that he would need a reason to be on the move like that, a compelling reason or you end up with the JMS Superman Road Trip story that went no where fast.

----------


## WonderNight

maybe what nightwing needs is a second book one for bludhevan and one for spy globetrotting?

----------


## Hizashi

> maybe what nightwing needs is a second book one for bludhevan and one for spy globetrotting?


Or do for him what Rucka did for Wonder Woman; have two separate stories with two different artists.

----------


## Alycat

> How old is Supergirl in Rebirth anyway?


16 I believe

----------


## Godlike13

> Or do for him what Rucka did for Wonder Woman; have two separate stories with two different artists.


They kind of did that. They switched between Bludhaven and globetrotting stories.

----------


## Hizashi

> They kind of did that. They switched between Bludhaven and globetrotting stories.


Then it just needed a pinch of consistency.

----------


## oasis1313

> I wish they didn't de-age Supergirl cause she could've been the one. But nope


Age her up, age her down, age him up, age him down.  It looks like any character can be as old or as young as Editorial wants them to be.  He's too old for her?  They can fix that with the stroke of a pencil.  DC could make him an 8 year-old Robin again next month.  Whatever the company whims are.

----------


## Godlike13

> Then it just needed a pinch of consistency.


It was consistent.

----------


## Hizashi

> It was consistent.


I've personally found the Bludhaven stuff lacking. I haven't liked the romance much either; still a good book, but it could be great.

----------


## Godlike13

Wait do mean consistency between quality, or consistency with telling two kinds stories?

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1010.jpg
http://78.media.tumblr.com/5d51eea1a...u7y2o1_500.png

----------


## Hizashi

> Wait do mean consistency between quality, or consistency with telling two kinds stories?


Consistent quality, I should've been more specific. Sorry!

----------


## TomServofan

Who else thought Lester Lorren was perfect casting for his voice on TAS?

----------


## Frontier

> Who else thought Lester Lorren was perfect casting for his voice on TAS?


(Raises hand)  :Smile: .

----------


## Godlike13

> Who else thought Lester Lorren was perfect casting for his voice on TAS?


At the time i was so young i didn't really give it much thought. He was just the voice of Dick. Even when i read comics that was the voice i heard for the longest time. Same with all the other Bat characters too, lol.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Who else thought Lester Lorren was perfect casting for his voice on TAS?


Ehhh I used to but not anymore. 

Small town wouldn't work for him. A major big city that isn't Gotham or Metropolis like works perfectly. Is anyone in Seoul, Hong Kong, or Sydney?

----------


## Ascended

> Ehhh I used to but not anymore. 
> 
> Small town wouldn't work for him. A major big city that isn't Gotham or Metropolis like works perfectly. Is anyone in *Seoul*, Hong Kong, or Sydney?


I could really get behind that one. 

Sad to say but I hadn't considered him in a city outside the States.....globe-trotting yes, but not as a permanent home......

There's potential there.....yes, I like this.

----------


## nightbird

https://doomrocket.com/exclusive-titans-17/
I will not stop wondering why it's always Joker..?

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

Crimes against Fashion



Wee bros

----------


## Alycat

> https://doomrocket.com/exclusive-titans-17/
> I will not stop wondering why it's always Joker..?


Looks like trash but the art isnt making my eyes bleed so that's an improvement.

----------


## WonderNight

> https://doomrocket.com/exclusive-titans-17/
> I will not stop wondering why it's always Joker..?


I swear titans is justice the tv show friends the comic. it's like a group of young adults not ready to grow up and join the adult world.

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1037.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbEoja_gb2W/

----------


## Drako

Dacre Montgomery, the Red Ranger, teases Nightwing role and then deleted the tweet.


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...ses_nightwing/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dacre Montgomery, the Red Ranger, teases Nightwing role and then deleted the tweet.
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinemati...ses_nightwing/


whiter then i wanted....

----------


## Frontier

> whiter then i wanted....


He's a lot younger then I'd expect them to go for, unless that's also for Robin flashbacks...

----------


## nightbird

So many actors teased, liked and reposted Nightwing fanarts resently, that I'm just gonna wait and see when they will officially cast him. 
But considering that Chris McKay today changed his whole twitter https://mobile.twitter.com/buddboetticher maybe they're ready to announce something. 
Dacre, btw, was really good in Stranger Things; can't imagine him as Dick though.

----------


## oasis1313

Casting Dick Grayson should be easy:  Just pick the best-looking young actor in town.

----------


## nightbird

> Casting Dick Grayson should be easy:  Just pick the best-looking young actor in town.


I actully think Dick is "the trickiest" to cast.

----------


## Rakiduam

Super blond.

----------


## jbmasta

> I actully think Dick is "the trickiest" to cast.


He needs charm, charisma, to have chemistry with pretty much anyone Dick interacts with, a sense of humour, a six pack and a great butt. Nightwing isn't just popular because of his body (enviable bodies are very common in superhero narratives) but also his personality. Unless they are a bad guy or an upset ex-girlfriend a character normally warms to him. Dick is clever and intuitive, but is modest about it (Damian on the other hand).

For appearance, a lean build. Something like any of the Spider-Men rather than Superman. Dick uses acrobatics a lot after all. Someone with martial arts experience, or able to learn it quickly for sure.

I can see the costume being upgraded to protective armour, like in the New 52 movies prior to Judas Contract (where he sports the New 52 red Nightwing costume). It'd be more manageable on a practical level, being separate components as opposed to a spandex bodysuit.

----------


## Godlike13

I just watched Stranger Things. He was a good dick in that.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I could really get behind that one. 
> 
> Sad to say but I hadn't considered him in a city outside the States.....globe-trotting yes, but not as a permanent home......
> 
> There's potential there.....yes, I like this.


Yeah there is a lot of potential for stories and Seoul for example is a very eclectic city.

----------


## Fergus

> Casting Dick Grayson should be easy:  Just pick the best-looking young actor in town.


I don't want just some pretty face with a noteworthy backside. Dick needs charm that radiates off the screen. The guy needs to be likeable but also command authority.

The acting has to be on point because Dick can be cheeky as he can be angry and dark.

They've got their work cut out.

I still can't believe we're getting a Nightwing movie.

----------


## CPSparkles

Dacre Montgomery is nothing lie Dick Grayson I'm already turned off

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 57336
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbEoja_gb2W/


Nice
also love the new avatar Nightbird

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1038.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbHfWK5jn4z/

----------


## nightbird

> Nice
> also love the new avatar Nightbird


Ah, thank you  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rac7d*

> He's a lot younger then I'd expect them to go for, unless that's also for Robin flashbacks...


Considering how long it takes to make movies younger is better
Their already wishing Margot Robbie was younger

----------


## KillerUmbrella

Dacre Montgomery is not handsome enough for Nightwing. DC usually make terrible decisions on casting, ugh

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1039.jpg
https://twitter.com/buddboetticher/s...28423809798145

----------


## Badou

The Nightwing movie isn't even on the slate of planned movies for the next few years. Odds are that who they cast as Nightwing will appear in the Batgirl or Batman movie first before getting a solo, so we have to wait for casting information for those two movies first. I still have my doubts that the Nightwing movie actually happens to be honest, but the Batgirl and Batman movie seem far more likely to happen and maybe next year we will get some information on those two movies.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Ehhh I used to but not anymore. 
> 
> Small town wouldn't work for him. A major big city that isn't Gotham or Metropolis like works perfectly. Is anyone in Seoul, Hong Kong, or Sydney?


That's just weird to me. Dick is super American. He'd end up being the white guy in Seoul. Idk how I feel about that, but at the same time, that's actually such a cool city. 

But moving Dick to another city would also just mean all the time we spent in Bludhaven would go to waste...

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1040.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbFyXVNgMz8/

----------


## CPSparkles

> That's just weird to me. Dick is super American. He'd end up being the white guy in Seoul. Idk how I feel about that, but at the same time, that's actually such a cool city. 
> 
> But moving Dick to another city would also just mean all the time we spent in Bludhaven would go to waste...


Super American is something I ever felt about Dick. American isn't even something that crosses my mind when I think of Dick Grayson. I always thing Nomad when I think Dick because of the circus boy thing however I don't want him to move. This Blud seems fine right now.

----------


## Vinsanity

> That's just weird to me. Dick is super American. He'd end up being the white guy in Seoul. Idk how I feel about that, but at the same time, that's actually such a cool city. 
> 
> But moving Dick to another city would also just mean all the time we spent in Bludhaven would go to waste...


Doesn't mean Bludhaven is a waste per se. He can take lessons from there and move on. Also I think there are expats in Seoul. 

I never saw him as an American character. To be honest only 2 characters I see as American and that's Superman and Hal Jordan.

----------


## Ascended

> Doesn't mean Bludhaven is a waste per se. He can take lessons from there and move on. Also I think there are expats in Seoul. 
> 
> *I never saw him as an American character.* To be honest only 2 characters I see as American and that's Superman and Hal Jordan.


Im not sure what you guys mean by this.

Dick *is* American. He was born here (far as I know anyway?). Do you mean "American" as in some sort of......stereotype or archetype? Like Clint Eastwood and apple pie and baseball?

----------


## oasis1313

> The Nightwing movie isn't even on the slate of planned movies for the next few years. Odds are that who they cast as Nightwing will appear in the Batgirl or Batman movie first before getting a solo, so we have to wait for casting information for those two movies first. I still have my doubts that the Nightwing movie actually happens to be honest, but the Batgirl and Batman movie seem far more likely to happen and maybe next year we will get some information on those two movies.


I don't think it's going to happen, either.  We're talking about Hollywood here.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Im not sure what you guys mean by this.
> 
> Dick *is* American. He was born here (far as I know anyway?). Do you mean "American" as in some sort of......stereotype or archetype? Like Clint Eastwood and apple pie and baseball?


If you are not sure if he was born in america what about the character screams American to you. What about him feels American. Superman and Captain America are the only heroes that screams America to me .

Nothing about Dick is particularly American to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If you are not sure if he was born in america what about the character screams American to you. What about him feels American. Superman and Captain America are the only heroes that screams America to me .
> 
> Nothing about Dick is particularly American to me.


IM confused  here

your not the type of person who starts asking somone where their from randomly are you?
what is an american wearing  patriotic shorts and and waving a flag

also superman is a literal illegal alien and screams America to you

----------


## Ascended

> If you are not sure if he was born in america what about the character screams American to you. What about him feels American. Superman and Captain America are the only heroes that screams America to me .
> 
> Nothing about Dick is particularly American to me.


What? 

No, Vinsanity said he had never seen Dick as an American character. I asked what he meant by that. 

As far as I know Dick *is* American, unless there was a major retcon somewhere that I somehow missed. So Vin's statement confused me. If he's not American, what is he?

----------


## The World

I remember the Morrison's Batman and Robin Cyrill said that Dick as a kid had a "funny accent". Arguably couldn't Dick be from anywhere, his people were always on the road? Although he's certainly spent more of his time in America than anywhere else and is definitely been raised American.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> also superman is a literal illegal alien and screams America to you


Huh, Superman has always seemed as American as Apple pie to me. Like Captain America. 

I realise that 90% of Superheroes are American but somehow Superman and Captain America seem _more_ American.

----------


## Godlike13

> I remember the Morrison's Batman and Robin Cyrill said that Dick as a kid had a "funny accent". Arguably couldn't Dick be from anywhere, his people were always on the road? Although he's certainly spent more of his time in America than anywhere else and is definitely been raised American.


Cyril was British remember.

----------


## byrd156

> I remember the Morrison's Batman and Robin Cyrill said that Dick as a kid had a "funny accent". Arguably couldn't Dick be from anywhere, his people were always on the road? Although he's certainly spent more of his time in America than anywhere else and is definitely been raised American.


A British person hearing an American accent would seem funny to them and vice versa. 

I don't understand why people are saying Dick doesn't seem American.

----------


## byrd156

> Super blond.


If anything I expect Dick to have brown hair, he always seems to have brown hair in live-action and occasionally in animation.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If anything I expect Dick to have brown hair, he always seems to have brown hair in live-action and occasionally in animation.


hair can be dyed

----------


## oasis1313

> If anything I expect Dick to have brown hair, he always seems to have brown hair in live-action and occasionally in animation.


Burt Ward had brown hair, but that's about all I remember.

----------


## Vinsanity

> What? 
> 
> No, Vinsanity said he had never seen Dick as an American character. I asked what he meant by that. 
> 
> As far as I know Dick *is* American, unless there was a major retcon somewhere that I somehow missed. So Vin's statement confused me. If he's not American, what is he?


Oh I meant it as he doesn't feel Americana. I know he's American.

LIke he doesn't feel American like baseball, apple pie, you know that stereotype stuff.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick Grayson is a nice person.  Is that what makes him un-American?

----------


## CPSparkles

> What? 
> 
> No, Vinsanity said he had never seen Dick as an American character. I asked what he meant by that. 
> 
> As far as I know Dick *is* American, unless there was a major retcon somewhere that I somehow missed. So Vin's statement confused me. If he's not American, what is he?


I mean it's not that Dick seems Not American in any way just that I've never thought of him in terms of nationality. Maybe that's because I'm British.
Because he's from the circus that also pushes him further away from American in my eyes.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Dick Grayson is a nice person.  Is that what makes him un-American?


Ooooh snap  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## byrd156

> Burt Ward had brown hair, but that's about all I remember.


So did O'Donnel and the new guy who was casted as Dick.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Flashpoint had Haly's Circus travel through Europe, it didn't require explanation or drastically change anything. Dick can be born anywhere.

----------


## TheCape

If i remenber correctly, his family was English beforw the Romani retcon.

----------


## Ascended

> Oh I meant it as he doesn't feel Americana. I know he's American.
> 
> LIke he doesn't feel American like baseball, apple pie, you know that stereotype stuff.


Oh, okay. It makes sense now.  :Smile:  

No, Nightwing doesnt inspire the Star Spangled Banner to run through my mind, or encourage me to buy war bonds either. 

Nighwing has always felt...I dunno, "sleek neo-pulp" or something.....not sure what the right word is.

----------


## Avi

And his mother is from Paris now, so... It's not as if DC/a writer wouldn't have options.

----------


## Ascended

> I mean it's not that Dick seems Not American in any way just that I've never thought of him in terms of nationality. Maybe that's because I'm British.
> Because he's from the circus that also pushes him further away from American in my eyes.


I never really gave his nationality any thought either. But then, most DC comics are based in the States, where I live, and most of their characters are American, as I am, so I just operate under a default assumption that they're Americans unless something sticks out to make me question it (or its otherwise stated to be the case of course)

EDIT: Now that people bring it up, I do like the idea of Dick being born somewhere in Europe before the circus comes to Gotham.

----------


## byrd156

> I never really gave his nationality any thought either. But then, most DC comics are based in the States, where I live, and most of their characters are American, as I am, so I just operate under a default assumption that they're Americans unless something sticks out to make me question it (or its otherwise stated to be the case of course)
> 
> EDIT: Now that people bring it up, I do like the idea of Dick being born somewhere in Europe before the circus comes to Gotham.


I feel like if writers start messing with Dick's nationality it would start bringing in more possible politically charged stories and ideas into his book and I don't want that in my Dick Grayson stories. I have no problem with his family history being filled with different European backgrounds (English, Romani, French, etc) but I don't want this to become something that defines the character. Dick should be defined by his character, abilities, and actions and all the talk of race changing and nationality in recent times moves the discussion about what makes Dick awesome to Dick is only great if he fills out these bubbles for certain people.

----------


## yohyoi

Hi guys. Just checking up. Hope you all have a nice day  :Big Grin:

----------


## dietrich

> Hi guys. Just checking up. Hope you all have a nice day


Long time @yohyoi hope youre having a nice day too  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Hi guys. Just checking up. Hope you all have a nice day


Same to you yohyoi  :Smile: .

----------


## Ascended

> I feel like if writers start messing with Dick's nationality it would start bringing in more possible politically charged stories and ideas into his book and I don't want that in my Dick Grayson stories. I have no problem with his family history being filled with different European backgrounds (English, Romani, French, etc) but I don't want this to become something that defines the character. Dick should be defined by his character, abilities, and actions and all the talk of race changing and nationality in recent times moves the discussion about what makes Dick awesome to Dick is only great if he fills out these bubbles for certain people.


That's an excellent point. I was just thinking it'd be an interesting and appropriate (given the nomadic nature of circus folk) little detail added into Dick's backstory (he'd still have spent the vast majority of his life in the States so it wouldn't have an impact on who he is) but you're absolutely right; in this day and age it'd be the only thing they'd focus on and they'd ruin it.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya well, I hope you all have a horrible day  :Cool:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Whoa, this conversation is kinda weird. Dick is American because he's been an American citizen for at least 6 years according to the New 52 timeline, and if the Rebirth timeline is different (i.e. Dick started as Robin when he was 13), than it's been for even longer. In Seeley's run, it was said Mary is the French immigrant who fell in love with Grayson who was American. So regardless of where Dick was born, he's obviously spent a significant period of his lifetime in the US. 

I guess I referred to him as super American because I see him as one. I'm Canadian myself, so I guess I just see a bigger divide between what it means to "be like me" and be American and tacked that onto Dick, lol. I only realized right now that I have no idea what "super American" means.

----------


## oasis1313

> So did O'Donnel and the new guy who was casted as Dick.


Awww, I was trying to forget O'Donnel . . . .

----------


## Ascended

> Whoa, this conversation is kinda weird. Dick is American because he's been an American citizen for at least 6 years according to the New 52 timeline, and if the Rebirth timeline is different (i.e. Dick started as Robin when he was 13), than it's been for even longer. In Seeley's run, it was said Mary is the French immigrant who fell in love with Grayson who was American. So regardless of where Dick was born, he's obviously spent a significant period of his lifetime in the US. 
> 
> I guess I referred to him as super American because I see him as one. I'm Canadian myself, so I guess I just see a bigger divide between what it means to "be like me" and be American and tacked that onto Dick, lol.* I only realized right now that I have no idea what "super American" means.*


Cowboy hats, baseball and guns? 

Im American and I have no idea what Super American means.  :Smile:

----------


## oasis1313

> Cowboy hats, baseball and guns? 
> 
> Im American and I have no idea what Super American means.


I like to think of Dick as an all-around good person and ultimately, an upstanding citizen of the universe.

----------


## nightbird

https://courtofnerds.podbean.com

Posting this just because Sam Humphries and Bernard Chang talked about Nightwing's new villain.

----------


## byrd156

> Ya well, I hope you all have a horrible day


Well I cri.  :Frown:

----------


## oasis1313

> https://courtofnerds.podbean.com
> 
> Posting this just because Sam Humphries and Bernard Chang talked about Nightwing's new villain.


Do we have a transcript?  I couldn't pick up the podcast.

----------


## Vinsanity

> And his mother is from Paris now, so... It's not as if DC/a writer wouldn't have options.


Marseillie is a great city. Lyon, Paris, Monaco. 

Potential cities in France.

----------


## nightbird

> Do we have a transcript?  I couldn't pick up the podcast.


I couldn't find any. They just said that the new villain will be called "Judge" and Dick already met him twice (Robin and college days).

----------


## Rac7d*

Does it matter in the end, where his parents are from 8-24 he lived in American, spoke English 
He's still white a white passing American boy first language is English. Its been like that fior 75 years

Why is everyone looking for change in Dick
Sexuality, nationality
Those are just superficial things an anyway

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I always thought it was funny for Colleen and Misty's detective agency to be called Nightwing Restorations ltd. I wanted to write a polyamorus relationship between them and someone else so maybe that dynamic would work for a future Nightwing run?

I'm not against changing his race/religion/nationality etc but its not exactly what he needs. The setup of Grayson is a better change to me because Dick a new niche and a more meaningful way to stand out from Batman's shadow.

----------


## Ascended

> Why is everyone looking for change in Dick
> Sexuality, nationality
> Those are just superficial things an anyway


Oh, Im not interested in changing him. Just considering something I had never given thought to before.

If Dick's mother was from France (or some other European nation) he'd still be considered an American because his father is American. He'd just be an American born abroad. He'd also have citizenship with whatever his mother's home nation was, but unless he were to try to move there or something that will never matter. So it really changes nothing, because the status of his citizenship (duel citizenship in this instance) has absolutely zero bearing on his character. He still would've grown up with the circus, still been taking in by Bruce, still spoke English as his first language, etc.

----------


## Avi

> Does it matter in the end, where his parents are from 8-24 he lived in American, spoke English 
> He's still white a white passing American boy first language is English. Its been like that fior 75 years
> 
> Why is everyone looking for change in Dick
> Sexuality, nationality
> Those are just superficial things an anyway


He has been in Batman's shadow for 75 years as well. And I wouldn't say that sexuality or nationality are superficial, they are part of a persons personality sometimes more and sometimes less. Personally I think him exploring his mother's birthplace or were she used to live in her childhood interesting, especially if Raptor is involved as well. A change has always potential and changes were already made, why not actually do anything with them?

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1052.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbOQdXJFeDh/

----------


## Tony Stark

Hey does anyone know if The Target is it's own graphic novel or is it included in other trades?

----------


## Rac7d*

> He has been in Batman's shadow for 75 years as well. And I wouldn't say that sexuality or nationality are superficial, they are part of a persons personality sometimes more and sometimes less. Personally I think him exploring his mother's birthplace or were she used to live in her childhood interesting, especially if Raptor is involved as well. A change has always potential and changes were already made, why not actually do anything with them?


Everyone is in batmans shadow, the only way to get out of his shadow is to sell more then him and mabey DC will care about you.
which only on rare occasion anyone does

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Hey does anyone know if The Target is it's own graphic novel or is it included in other trades?


I'm 90% sure it's a one shot stand alone and not collected in the trades.

----------


## oasis1313

I like Dick just the way he's been for 75 years--Caucasian, heterosexual, and American.  However, if DC wants to make TIM black, green, purple, homosexual, monosexual, pansexual, omnisexual, pigsexual, nanosexual, transgender, transpecies, translucent, and from any sort of national cesspool they please, it's FINE by me.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I'm 90% sure it's a one shot stand alone and not collected in the trades.


Thank you so much.

----------


## oasis1313

> Thank you so much.


The Target is a one-shot, but I have it in my library as a slick-cover TP format slim book.  Don't know if it was ever a comic or just a thin TP.

----------


## nightbird

IMG_1054.jpg
https://mobile.twitter.com/13thdisciple_

----------


## AlcorDee

[Looks at recent Titans arc]
[Looks at recent Detective Comics arc]
[Screeches]

Why does DC keep making future Dick a sucky Batman? He was a fantastic Batman I'm so done with this.

----------


## yohyoi

> [Looks at recent Titans arc]
> [Looks at recent Detective Comics arc]
> [Screeches]
> 
> Why does DC keep making future Dick a sucky Batman? He was a fantastic Batman I'm so done with this.


DC hates when superheroes get a happy future  :Frown: 

Don't be a dick to Dick, DC!

----------


## yohyoi

HOLY IMMACULATE COVERS, BATMAN!





https://twitter.com/javierfdezart/st...75880162693126

Nightwing #34 cover by Javier Fernandez. The last issue of Seeley's Nightwing run.

----------


## dietrich

> Ya well, I hope you all have a horrible day


My day was lovely  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> [Looks at recent Titans arc]
> [Looks at recent Detective Comics arc]
> [Screeches]
> 
> Why does DC keep making future Dick a sucky Batman? He was a fantastic Batman I'm so done with this.


Because DC  doesn't want us to have nice things.

----------


## nightbird

> [Looks at recent Titans arc]
> [Looks at recent Detective Comics arc]
> [Screeches]
> 
> Why does DC keep making future Dick a sucky Batman? He was a fantastic Batman I'm so done with this.


DC probably paranoid about Bruce not being everyone's one and only Batman lol. Hence Robins = BadBats. 
Dick was popular as Bats, right? But sometimes it feels like DC is trying to erase it like it never happened. 
...Or maybe it's just Tynion and Abnett.

----------


## TheCape

> DC probably paranoid about Bruce not being everyone's one and only Batman lol. Hence Robins = BadBats.*
> Dick was popular as Bats, right? But sometimes it feels like DC is trying to erase it like it never happened.*
> ...Or maybe it's just Tynion and Abnett.


I don't think that is something out hate or despite, is just a pretty old device that they have been overusing.

----------


## Hizashi

> DC probably paranoid about Bruce not being everyone's one and only Batman lol. Hence Robins = BadBats. 
> Dick was popular as Bats, right? But sometimes it feels like DC is trying to erase it like it never happened. 
> ...Or maybe it's just Tynion and Abnett.


Scott Snyder wrote my favorite Batman story, the Black Mirror, with Dick as Batman. Nostalgia is a factor.

----------


## yohyoi

> DC probably paranoid about Bruce not being everyone's one and only Batman lol. Hence Robins = BadBats. 
> Dick was popular as Bats, right? But sometimes it feels like DC is trying to erase it like it never happened. 
> ...Or maybe it's just Tynion and Abnett.


Dick was popular as Batman. Black Mirror, anyone?! He is also my favorite and best Batman. A Batman without the grumpy loner attitude, sign me in!

Tynion didn't really use Dick. He even put a passive-aggressive reason why he isn't Batman. Probably thought of addressing then putting him in the sideline is the easiest way to go.

Abnett only understands Dick on a surface level. He is more interested in the other Titans.

----------


## nightbird

> HOLY IMMACULATE COVERS, BATMAN!
> 
> https://twitter.com/javierfdezart/st...75880162693126
> 
> Nightwing #34 cover by Javier Fernandez. The last issue of Seeley's Nightwing run.


I'm going to miss his art.

----------


## Hizashi

> *Dick was popular as Batman. Black Mirror, anyone?! He is also my favorite and best Batman. A Batman without the grumpy loner attitude, sign me in!*
> 
> Tynion didn't really use Dick. He even put a passive-aggressive reason why he isn't Batman. Probably thought of addressing then putting him in the sideline is the easiest way to go.
> 
> Abnett only understands Dick on a surface level. He is more interested in the other Titans.


Yes, absolutely. What book was it where Dick was still on the roof when Gordon turned around? Black Mirror??

----------


## yohyoi

Truthfully, I am more outraged on the changing of future Batman Damian in to a one dimensional villain. Totally destroyed the whole point of Damian's redemption.

----------


## nightbird

> Dick was popular as Batman. Black Mirror, anyone?! He is also my favorite and best Batman. A Batman without the grumpy loner attitude, sign me in!
> 
> Tynion didn't really use Dick. He even put a passive-aggressive reason why he isn't Batman. Probably thought of addressing then putting him in the sideline is the easiest way to go.
> 
> Abnett only understands Dick on a surface level. He is more interested in the *other Titans.*


you mean only Wally?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yohyoi

> you mean only Wally?


At least Donna, Lilith, Roy and Garth had some issues focused on them. The only thing Dick did is outsmart H.I.V.E.

It took 10+ issues for Dick to do something, and it was a plain and everyday task for Nightwing. The definition of a cookie cutter plot.

----------


## 9th.

I saw a picture of Dick as a cop on Google the other day. I gotta track down that story so I can read it.

----------


## dietrich

> Truthfully, I am more outraged on the changing of future Batman Damian in to a one dimensional villain. Totally destroyed the whole point of Damian's redemption.


True that and Dicks popularity as Batman is undeniable. To this day you still see so much calls for his return.

Batman and Robin Reborn was the 1st comic I ever read. Bruce ain't nothing on DickBats in my book

----------


## TheCape

> I saw a picture of Dick as a cop on Google the other day. I gotta track down that story so I can read it.


Well, Dick was a cop in like the second half of Dixon's run on Nightwing, so maybe you should start there.

----------


## TheCape

> Batman and Robin Reborn was the 1st comic I ever read. Bruce ain't nothing on DickBats in my book


According to Jim Gordon, the GPD prefered Dick over Bruce too :Smile: .

----------


## nightbird

> According to Jim Gordon, the GPD prefered Dick over Bruce too.


He was nice to them and didn't vanish the moment they turn around lol

----------


## TheCape

> He was nice to them and didn't vanish the moment they turn around lol


Good times  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

> At least Donna, Lilith, Roy and Garth had some issues focused on them. The only thing Dick did is outsmart H.I.V.E.
> 
> It took 10+ issues for Dick to do something, and it was a plain and everyday task for Nightwing. The definition of a cookie cutter plot.


I probably blinked and missed those moments or they happened after I dropped the book. Still he is terrible at writing Titans; they all sound similar and most of the time act like incompetent idiots.

----------


## nightbird

> Good times


yeah, shame his run as Bats ended so soon.

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing Variant by Yasemine Putri

----------


## dietrich

> Good times


Aah Good times indeed I know its not your Jam but Agent 37 was the best Dick has ever been for me.

----------


## Alycat

> Aah Good times indeed I know its not your Jam but Agent 37 was the best Dick has ever been for me.


Me too. Agent 37 and Dickbats were taken from us to soon.

----------


## TheCape

> Aah Good times indeed I know its not your Jam but Agent 37 was the best Dick has ever been for me.


I said before, i think that is not as good as people sell it and Seely/King Dick got on my nerves sometimes, but i won't deny that there is a charm and energy in the whole thing that make it entertaining.

----------


## Hizashi

> yeah, shame his run as Bats ended so soon.


How was the Justice League during Dickbats run? Wasn't he on the team with Donna?

----------


## nightbird

> How was the Justice League during Dickbats run? Wasn't he on the team with Donna?


I didn't read it... yet, but I will, probably next year. I'm still trying to catch up with vast DCU.  
So anyone wants to share their opinion?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s015.***********/i332/1711/7a/858cdb7838cd.jpg[/IMG]
by Mahmud Asrar.

----------


## TheCape

> I didn't read it... yet, but I will, probably next year. I'm still trying to catch up with vast DCU.*
> So anyone wants to share their opinion?


Well the plots and villains were average, but there was some nice characther moments, specially beetween Dick and Donna, Congo Bill and Starman were fun too, but because of the change of roster and the reboot, it never feel like it reached a solid group dynamic among all the members. Dick charactherizarion there, was fine for the most part thougth.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well the plots and villains were average, but there was some nice characther moments, specially beetween Dick and Donna, Congo Bill and Starman were fun too, but because of the change of roster and the reboot, it never feel like it reached a solid group dynamic among all the members. Dick charactherizarion there, was fine for the most part thougth.


Is there a trade paperback collection of this?

----------


## adrikito

Nightwing Fan Film

----------


## TheCape

> Is there a trade paperback collection of this?


Yeah, the last 3 paperback of the Justice League of America series that was being published before the reboot. I doubt that they are still on print thought, but you probably could fine then at a reasonable price in Amazon (at least i assume that you could).

Edit: The last 4 TPB of the JLA before the reboot.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Did I miss any talk about the new Nightwing villain "The Judge"? Dick's 3rd meeting with him following Robin days and time at Hudson. Gonna be other smaller villains (think they're all new) peppered through out.

----------


## 9th.

> Well, Dick was a cop in like the second half of Dixon's run on Nightwing, so maybe you should start there.


thanks, will do

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> How was the Justice League during Dickbats run? Wasn't he on the team with Donna?


I liked it better than all the JL stories that came out afterwards, from the New 52 to Rebirth stuff. That's about as much as I can say since I've not read much comics from before DickBats stuff.

I should add, Dick and Kara's relationship was a highlight for me, as was Donna and Jade's. There wasn't too much said between Dick and Donna but they were fun together, too. Basically, the main squad of Dick, Kara, Donna, and Jade were great. The others were great, too, but they never got much focus in the book.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i632/1711/62/948477cf3fa2.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbQbzUthbkT/

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


They all took the time to do their hair then got Alfred to set up the fog machine, ominous music and mood lighting then STRUT

Jason gave his helmet a good polish [no pun intended

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


This is probably the coolest they have ever all looked together  :Big Grin: . 

Good thing there's no dialogue to screw it up  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


Team Zombie

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


Dick sort of looks like he's wearing a high waisted thong over his uniform.

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


Here come the boys.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Dick sort of looks like he's wearing a high waisted thong over his uniform.


Lol he really does.

----------


## jbmasta

> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


The shadowing on Dick's torso makes it look like only the top half is covered.

----------


## TheCape

> The shadowing on Dick's torso makes it look like only the top half is covered.


Many females fans (and male), would probably prefer him looking like that  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_nwmwcjc77k1rnoyke_1280.jpg
Detective Comics #874
Dickbats and Red Robin team up (this whole arc migth be my favorite Dickbats story ever).

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i500/1711/69/08bbbfdfd7c7.png[/IMG]
http://avataraandy.tumblr.com

----------


## TheCape

@nightbird
That image is amazing.

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i500/1711/69/08bbbfdfd7c7.png[/IMG]
> http://avataraandy.tumblr.com


Ah, this makes me miss Dick and Donna's friendship (and the old Donna) even more  :Frown: .

----------


## yohyoi

I really love the Nightwing costume. The minimalist style works so well.

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i500/1711/69/08bbbfdfd7c7.png[/IMG]
> http://avataraandy.tumblr.com


Damn that looks good.  :Big Grin:

----------


## byrd156

Happy Birthday Dick!

----------


## adrikito

> happy birthday dick!


is today? Happy birthday, first robin.




> [IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1711/66/6f5ec64af8a0.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQODkoO/


ROBIN LEGACY(Forgetting Steph), good image..

----------


## Frontier

> Happy Birthday Dick!


Happy birthday, Boy Wonder  :Cool: .

----------


## Aioros22

Happy Birthday, miss your discowing phase.

----------


## Fergus

> Happy Birthday Dick!


Happy Birthday Dick

----------


## Hizashi

IMG_0028.jpg

Happy Birthday Nightwing.

----------


## nightbird

Happy Birthday, Dick Grayson
[img]http://s019.***********/i605/1711/ee/9ca73fc2fb08.gif[/img]

[img]http://i057.***********/1711/0f/0eeed1a255c1.gif[/img]

p.s. I thought his birthday in march o.o

----------


## nightbird



----------


## Ascended

Well, happy birthday to the best part of Gotham!

----------


## dietrich

Happy Birthday Dick Grayson

----------


## dietrich



----------


## dietrich



----------


## Frontier

Giving me some_ Jojo's Bizarre Adventures_ vibe...

----------


## TheCape

> Giving me some*Jojo's Bizarre Adventures*vibe...


Now i want to see this image little by little with "Roundabout" sounding in the background :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

> Now i want to see this image little by little with "Roundabout" sounding in the background


You read my mind  :Wink: .

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s008.***********/i305/1711/dc/ece7d9fd6045.jpg[/IMG]
https://kuromameo.tumblr.com

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i629/1711/1d/e3b780483a49.jpg[/IMG]

4 Birthdays, o wow.. .

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i633/1711/d9/74b92e995a5a.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbY6lPuFrug/

----------


## Tony Stark

How is the storyline Summer of Lies with Babs and Grayson over in Batgirl? I was thinking about picking up that and Nightwing The New Order.

----------


## zomg

> 


Where is this Batman costume from?

----------


## TheCape

> Where is this Batman costume from?


Earth 2: Society

----------


## zomg

> Earth 2: Society


Thank you!

----------


## adrikito

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...-2017-artgerm/

nightwing-34-Javi-Fernandez-600x910.jpg

nightwing-34-Yasmine-Putri-600x912.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

Happy Birthday Dick

----------


## CPSparkles

inkydandy

@ nightbird it's so he can have the most pressies  :Smile:

----------


## Katana500

hahhaha thats really great! I love the art!

----------


## Rac7d*

Happy birthday

----------


## Aahz

Dick has actually 2 different Birthdays in March and Young Justice put his Birthdays in December.

----------


## nightbird

> @ nightbird it's so he can have the most pressies


lol, yeah, I guess. 4 birthdays better than 1  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> How is the storyline Summer of Lies with Babs and Grayson over in Batgirl? I was thinking about picking up that and Nightwing The New Order.


It's okay. Dick and Babs cute in flashbacks, nice to see them working together as Robin and Batgirl. Nightwing: The New Order definitely a better story.

----------


## Tony Stark

> It's okay. Dick and Babs cute in flashbacks, nice to see them working together as Robin and Batgirl. Nightwing: The New Order definitely a better story.


Thanks. I'll probably get both.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Giving me some_ Jojo's Bizarre Adventures_ vibe...


Well, sometimes I read Nightwing issues with JoJo's OST in the background, so I've been associating that vibe with Dick for quite a while, lol. 

Loving all this birthday art, too.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It's okay. Dick and Babs cute in flashbacks, nice to see them working together as Robin and Batgirl. Nightwing: The New Order definitely a better story.


I prefer Batgirl but both are good. New Order isn't my type of story but it works.

----------


## Ivy_b

OK, that was adorable and made the multiple birthdays worth it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> How is the storyline Summer of Lies with Babs and Grayson over in Batgirl? I was thinking about picking up that and Nightwing The New Order.


Both very good. Really loving Nightwing TNO more than I anticipated when it was 1st announced.

----------


## CPSparkles

Batman & Catwoman’s Engagement Solidifies Dick & Damian’s Bond

https://www.cbr.com/batman-nightwing-robin-brothers/

I'm not the biggest fan of this run but I do after Tec's rubbish about future DickBat doing a runner this latest arc serves as a palate cleanser.
I like his role in this arc both as elder brother and first son stepping and putting out fires once again  :Smile:  however not sure whether laugh or cry at this article. Journalism today

----------


## TheCape

Is CBR, they also gave me a meltdown when they talk about Spider-Man, with how poorlu researched they are.

----------


## oasis1313

I actually possess a DC calendar that lists Dick's birthday as being in October.

----------


## nightbird

> I prefer Batgirl but both are good. New Order isn't my type of story but it works.


For me Batgirl story is nothing special, but N:TNO is the first Elseworld story (I believe) where Dick is the main focus. It's not perfect, but interesting read nonetheless.

----------


## zomg

> but N:TNO is the first Elseworld story (I believe) where Dick is the main focus.


There's Batman: Thrillkiller and Batman: Nine Lives.

----------


## nightbird

> There's Batman: Thrillkiller and Batman: Nine Lives.


Yeah, but those are Batman stories, not Nightwing.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s46.***********/i111/1711/1a/6769e1d20d56.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/toniarina/status...901368322?s=17

----------


## zomg

> Yeah, but those are Batman stories, not Nightwing.


Both of those are Elseworld stories where Dick is the main focus.

----------


## nightbird

> Both of those are Elseworld stories where Dick is the main focus.


Under Batman "name". I'm talking about Elseworld stories that were sold under Nighwting/Dick Grayson name. How many of those around? I know only N:TNO. Dick played major roles in both books (I didn't read Thrillkiller though, so I'm gonna just believe you here), but none of them have Nighwting/Dick Grayson in the title, so "Batman" was again the main (/marketing) player and focus.

----------


## zomg

> I'm talking about Elseworld stories that were sold under Nighwting/Dick Grayson name.


Fair enough I assumed you were talking about Elseworld stories where Dick Grayson is the protagonist, which sadly rarely happens.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]http://s46.***********/i111/1711/1a/6769e1d20d56.jpg[/IMG]
> https://twitter.com/toniarina/status...901368322?s=17


This is so sweet.  Dick is a much better Dad to Damian than Bruce.

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s46.***********/i111/1711/1a/6769e1d20d56.jpg[/IMG]
> https://twitter.com/toniarina/status...901368322?s=17


This is so cute. It makes me so happy  :Big Grin:

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #34 Var. Cover by Yasmine Putri

Look at the photographer Blockbuster getting some of the legendary Dick butt.  :Cool:

----------


## yohyoi

Some Comichron news...

*Nightwing	30	$2.99	DC	31,978
Nightwing	31	$2.99	DC	31,762

Nightwing The New Order	3	$3.99	DC	23,506

Nightwing Rebirth Dlx Coll HC Book 1	$34.99	DC	974

Grayson The Superspy Omnibus HC	$99.99	DC	629

Nightwing Vol. 1 Better Than Batman	$16.99	DC	721
Nightwing Vol. 3 Nightwing Must Die	$16.99	DC	340*

That's a lot of Nightwing! I love that Nightwing Rebirth is a commercial success. It shows there are a lot of Dick fans ready to* buy and support* their favorite character. DC keeps on promoting Harley because there is audience; no matter how many haters she gets here.

Never in my life would I think of seeing 7 Dick Grayson comics in the top chart. Hopefully it becomes a main stay in the next months and years.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i503/1711/42/910c1d0b1016.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbdypMdl_PK/

----------


## WonderNight

> Some Comichron news...
> 
> *Nightwing	30	$2.99	DC	31,978
> Nightwing	31	$2.99	DC	31,762
> 
> Nightwing The New Order	3	$3.99	DC	23,506
> 
> Nightwing Rebirth Dlx Coll HC Book 1	$34.99	DC	974
> 
> ...


So the only characters that sales better than nightwing are batman, superman, flash, wonder woman and harley. cool :Cool:

----------


## Godlike13

I'm surprised New Order is still in the 20s.

----------


## nightbird

> I'm surprised New Order is still in the 20s.


I wonder is it selling better or worse than expected?

----------


## nightbird

> Fair enough I assumed you were talking about Elseworld stories where Dick Grayson is the protagonist, which sadly rarely happens.


Yeah, I hope N:TNO is a shift in tone for Nightwing brand in DC.

----------


## oasis1313

> So the only characters that sales better than nightwing are batman, superman, flash, wonder woman and harley. cool


Yeah, you'd think DC would show some appreciation for the character.  You'd THINK . . . .

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah they show so little...

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah they show so little...


Okay, question, you guys complain all the time about Red Hood not being promoted enough, so what the problem if Nightwing fans feel the same?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s010.***********/i311/1711/4e/0d321369501b.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbdVnYnArU2/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah they show so little...


In comparison to most he is practically a prince

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s010.***********/i311/1711/4e/0d321369501b.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbdVnYnArU2/


I still think Dick and Shawn were a cute couple...

----------


## WonderNight

> In comparison to most he is practically a prince


not for someone of his sales, history and fanbase.. all I want is for nightwing to get the love and respect from DC and WB that a character with his sales, history, fanbase and legacy deserves darn it! :Mad:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i522/1711/e4/4956acec4e27.jpg[/IMG]
credit:logo

----------


## nightbird

> I still think Dick and Shawn were a cute couple...


I liked them better as friends; I understand why Seeley decided to rush things between them, but it damaged their appeal (as couple) in a long run.

----------


## Aioros22

> Okay, question, you guys complain all the time about Red Hood not being promoted enough, so what the problem if Nightwing fans feel the same?


We don`t "complain" he isn`t promoted enough. We point out RATHO is hardly promoted _at all_. 

Dick _is_ shown a little consideration by DC going by the sheer ammount of series he guest stars, cartoons and animated appearances, series like "New Order" and the sheer promotion screen. What you actually mean to ask is whether he gets the character treatment someone with his seniority and sales could warrant over Green Arrow and others.

----------


## oasis1313

> I liked them better as friends; I understand why Seeley decided to rush things between them, but it damaged their appeal (as couple) in a long run.


Dick needs a woman who can avoid being a hostage.  I'm thinking Caitlyn Fairchild or Power Girl.

----------


## nightbird

> We don`t "complain" he isn`t promoted enough. We point out RATHO is hardly promoted _at all_. 
> 
> Dick _is_ shown a little consideration by DC going by the sheer ammount of series he guest stars, cartoons and animated appearances, series like "New Order" and the sheer promotion screen. What you actually mean to ask is whether he gets the character treatment someone with his seniority and sales could warrant over Green Arrow and others.


Okay. 

... I feel like your two comments basically contradict each other. Either he gets "a little consideration by DC" or "yeah, they show so little..." (with obvious sarcasm). I said "not being promoted enough" and "if they feel the same". "RHaTO should get more promotions because it's a good and popular book"; Nightwing should get more promotions because of his status in DC (or something like that). I see no diffidence. In both cases fans want more push from DC and complain/demand how their favorites should be actully treated. I mean I even saw Superman and Wonder Woman fans crying over marketing stuff, justifiable or not.

----------


## nightbird

> Dick needs a woman who can avoid being a hostage.  I'm thinking Caitlyn Fairchild or Power Girl.


Gen13 is canon in DCU?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s61.***********/i174/1711/27/6a15d830d4c8.jpg[/IMG]
http://karama-wari.tumblr.com

----------


## Hizashi

> I liked them better as friends; I understand why Seeley decided to rush things between them, but it damaged their appeal (as couple) in a long run.


I think it could've worked if it hadn't been rushed.

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s61.***********/i174/1711/27/6a15d830d4c8.jpg[/IMG]
> http://karama-wari.tumblr.com


Dick is so hot  :Embarrassment:  He is truly the hottest male comic book character ever.

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick needs a woman who can avoid being a hostage.  I'm thinking Caitlyn Fairchild or Power Girl.


There will probably be a new love interest early next year. I hoped they will try my favorite Dick pairing -Dick&Kori- but you know Bat editorial. Such a shame, considering there will be a Titans tv series and they were doing naughty stuff in the Judas Contract movie.

Power Girl had a crush on Dick in pre-Flashpoint. Unfortunately, death by snu-snu is both a bad and good way to go.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s013.***********/i323/1711/e6/b37b14e7b029.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbeRvCNg5W1/

Upcoming release. Looks like they only changed head and color.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Okay. 
> 
> ... I feel like your two comments basically contradict each other. Either he gets "a little consideration by DC" or "yeah, they show so little..." (with obvious sarcasm). I said "not being promoted enough" and "if they feel the same". "RHaTO should get more promotions because it's a good and popular book"; Nightwing should get more promotions because of his status in DC (or something like that). I see no diffidence. In both cases fans want more push from DC and complain/demand how their favorites should be actully treated. I mean I even saw Superman and Wonder Woman fans crying over marketing stuff, justifiable or not.


DC sucks are promoting any character not called Batman which is a shame Dick should be better promoted and get treatment worthy of the character.
Jason I know his fans complain which is their right personally I feel he gets the most promotion after Bruce. He got a hint in BvS, he's in the games. He is highly visible so the public are aware. 

Nightwing it's mind boggling how little promo he gets. He isn't visible at all. Sure there are stuff coming up in the future but for a character that sells so well we should have passed this point years ago.

----------


## nightbird

> DC sucks are promoting any character not called Batman which is a shame Dick should be better promoted and get treatment worthy of the character.
> Jason I know his fans complain which is their right personally I feel he gets the most promotion after Bruce. He got a hint in BvS, he's in the games. He is highly visible so the public are aware. 
> 
> Nightwing it's mind boggling how little promo he gets. He isn't visible at all. Sure there are stuff coming up in the future but for a character that sells so well we should have passed this point years ago.


I'm not really concerned about how much promotion he gets, but how wrong DC actually promotes him. What the point of all those promotions if they still  push him everywhere as "Batman's sidekick" rather than "solo superhero".

----------


## Godlike13

I don't know what DC wants sometimes. On one hand they want the characters to carry a bimonthly, and make a Nightwing movie, and center a Titans tv show around him. Which is awesome. Yet on the other hand they let writers like Tynion bring him into his story simply so he can feed him to his flavor of the week, or let Abnett write him like he is the least important Titan who quite frankly just sucks at being a superhero. Which is just frustrating. I'd argue Nightwing needs consistency more so than promotion. Not that he couldn't use more promotion.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason I know his fans complain which is their right personally *I feel he gets the most promotion after Bruce. He got a hint in BvS, he's in the games. He is highly visible so the public are aware.*


Uh, no?

First, a hint in BVS? There is currently an entire movie being planned for 'Nightwing' a SOLO movie, is that really comparable to a fan easter egg where the name 'Jason' hasnt even been dropped. PLUS the fact that a Titans TV show where Dick is the lead is in production.

Second.
Dick was in two of the Arkham Games and was a main fighter in one injustice game.
Jason was in one of the Arkham Games and was demanded for and became dlc in one injustice game.

Your own comparisons still give Dick technically 'more promotion'.

The only reason why people seemed to feel that Jason gets 'way more promotion' is that the public latched on to the character, thats it, thats why he is 'highly visable'. Theres hasn't been excessive media featuring him, or pushing him, people just liked either the character or the image of the character is all, especially when he stands in opposition or at least not completely under Batmans rule. 

I still think Dicks problem is remaining at the hip of Batman, marketability wise. Weird as it is, remaining as a good ally gets him stuck under the shadow of Bats and gives the impression that he is simply an extension of Batmans world rather than his own character. Though I have hope the Titans live action show may help to represent Dick to older audiences in the same way that young audiences gained an appreciation for the character through the Teen Titans animated show. It can also help to detach him from Batman and display why and how he is a hero in his own right and not as just a sidekick.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't know what DC wants sometimes. On one hand they want the characters to carry a bimonthly, and make a Nightwing movie, and center a Titans tv show around him. Which is awesome. Yet on the other hand they let writers like Tynion bring him into his story simply so he can feed him to his flavor of the week, or let Abnett write him like he is the least important Titan who quite frankly just sucks at being a superhero. Which is just frustrating. I'd argue Nightwing needs consistency more so than promotion. Not that he couldn't use more promotion.


Consistency in charactherization?, we lost that one a long time ago.

----------


## RedBird

> Consistency in charactherization?, we lost that one a long time ago.


Hey man, we can dream.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm not really concerned about how much promotion he gets, but how wrong DC actually promotes him. What the point of all those promotions if they still push him everywhere as "Batman's sidekick" rather than "solo superhero".


He is part of the Batman line, his story with him is was made him popular and so he is stuck in "former sidekick now going solo hero that ocassionally aids Batman" archetype.

----------


## TheCape

> Hey man, we can dream.


Not as long as i'm around  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> He is part of the Batman line, his story with him is was made him popular and so he is stuck in "former sidekick now going solo hero that ocassionally aids Batman" archetype.


See thats fine for media centered solely around Batman, of course Dick will fulfill that role as Batman's aid. 

Which is why _support_ for any media where upon *Dick* gets to be the center should definitely be shown when it drops. I really hope that Titans show works out, I mean if that God awful Arrow show can go on for so many seasons surely this will flourish.




> Not as long as i'm around


Awww  :Frown:

----------


## oasis1313

> Gen13 is canon in DCU?


Not to my knowledge, no.  But Midnighter and Apollo are Wildstorm and there they are in the DCU.  DC bought Wildstorm for pretty much the sole purpose of bringing Jim Lee into the fold, but they can pick and choose what characters to introduce into their current canon.
Why not bring back Fairchild for Dick?  She's superstrong, almost invulnerable, wears a costume that leaves her entire butt exposed, and for Dick's sake, she's a redhead.  I wouldn't mind bringing Kory back, either, if they did it without the usual sloppiness.

----------


## TheCape

> Which is why*support*for any media where upon*Dick*gets to be the center should definitely be shown when it drops. I really hope that Titans show works out, I mean if that God awful Arrow show can go on for so many seasons surely this will flourish.


I pretty much agrees with you and i think that it would last (if Legends of Tomorrow can last, sure this one can too). But DC doesn't know how to promote characther beyond the A List.

----------


## RedBird

> I pretty much agrees with you and i think that it would last (if Legends of Tomorrow can last, sure this one can too). But DC doesn't know how to promote characther beyond the A List.


True, dc sucks at their jobs, water is wet, what can ya do. :P But see now, this aint me saying that Dick shouldnt be promoted, rather that commercialization and marketing is one thing but how well the actual program is executed is another, and as long as the tv show can actually present the characters well and deliver upon a worthwhile program then thats the strongest form of 'promotion' in my mind. Advertise and promote all you want, but nothing can top 'quality'.

Social media and word of mouth for things like movies and tv shows is a powerful tool. Look at the people still begging for the animated Teen Titans show to return, look at the love that Young Justice received, so much so that a new season is now in the works. Pushing a character onto an audience is one thing but actually delivering a character worth an audiences attention should be priority for them, this will be one of Dicks first and most notable presentations as a superhero for an adult audience, it needs to leave an impact, a mostly good one. I just hope DC is investing in directors and writers for this thing, considering this and the future Nightwing movie.

----------


## yohyoi

Hahaha  :Stick Out Tongue: 

People complaining about DC's use of its characters is a classic. You can see it even in the Supes and Wondy threads. General rule is that Batman is the main focus of DC. Anyone else is 2nd choices.

Look at the WW movie. It was a success but DC has not really pushed her after. An animated movie wouldn't hurt, but latest we can get it is probably 2019; which is a maybe. Not to mention the Injustice games...

You get used to it. We have a long and slow uphill climb to better representations of Dick.

----------


## TheCape

@RedBird
Am i would be pretty happy if you are alrigth and actually think that there is a chance, i'm all in for a great Dick Grayson/Nightwing movie (that is still his better identity, no matter what most people on this thread said  :Stick Out Tongue: ) and the future doesn't look too gloom in that regard. But until i see results, i'm not going to hold my breath, i been dissapointed before.

----------


## yohyoi

> @RedBird
> Am i would be pretty happy if you are alrigth and actually think that there is a chance, i'm all in for a great Dick Grayson/Nightwing movie (that is still his better identity, no matter what most people on this thread said ) and the future doesn't look to gloom in that regaed. But until i see results, i'm not going to hold my breath, i been dissapointrd before.


Which is good. Being realistic is the smart way.

In the end, we are consumers. If they make a great movie/series/comics, people will buy and fans will continue being fans.

----------


## RedBird

> @RedBird
> Am i would be pretty happy if you are alrigth and actually think that there is a chance, i'm all in for a great Dick Grayson/Nightwing movie (that is still his better identity, no matter what most people on this thread said ) and the future doesn't look to gloom in that regaed. But until i see results, i'm not going to hold my breath, i been dissapointrd before.


I'm with you dude, I ain't expecting greatness, but if people want Nightwing to lift off the ground, I think its unfortunately going to happen with good executions of storytelling in media rather than just 'promotion'. So like, that thing that DC has an even harder time achieving.  :Big Grin: 




> Which is good. Being realistic is the smart way.
> 
> In the end, we are consumers. If they make a great movie/series/comics, people will buy and fans will continue being fans.


Exactly

----------


## nightbird

> He is part of the Batman line, his story with him is was made him popular and so he is stuck in "former sidekick now going solo hero that ocassionally aids Batman" archetype.


That's why I said it's wrong promotion. Almost in all stuff that he appears they don't even try to flesh out his character, he is basically "adult Robin, but he is not Robin, he has no "conflict" with Batman that we can use, so whatever". He doesn't give "independent hero" vibe and it hurts his credibility. 
I'm not gonna count "solo Nightwing movie" as something yet. It's not a sure deal.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm not gonna count "solo Nightwing movie" as something yet. It's not a sure deal.


Despite the enthusiasm shown for that, I think DC may be considering this too, they may just be using the Titans tv show to 'test the waters' so to speak, for a Nightwing movie, even more pressure to add to his presence on that show. :/

----------


## nightbird

> Not to my knowledge, no.  But Midnighter and Apollo are Wildstorm and there they are in the DCU.  DC bought Wildstorm for pretty much the sole purpose of bringing Jim Lee into the fold, but they can pick and choose what characters to introduce into their current canon.
> Why not bring back Fairchild for Dick?  She's superstrong, almost invulnerable, wears a costume that leaves her entire butt exposed, and for Dick's sake, she's a redhead.  I wouldn't mind bringing Kory back, either, if they did it without the usual sloppiness.


I always liked Sarah more than Caitlin  :Stick Out Tongue:  But I don't think super-powered girlfriend is an answer. Maybe he should stay single for a while..

----------


## TheCape

Caitlin Fairchild existed in the New 52, she had an encounter with Tim's TT crew and former hos own called "The Ravargers" (they didn't last more than 12 issues).

----------


## nightbird

> Despite the enthusiasm shown for that, I think DC may be considering this too, they may just be using the Titans tv show to 'test the waters' so to speak, for a Nightwing movie, even more pressure to add to his presence on that show. :/


If DCEU was stable I wouldn't worry about that, but who knows what will happen with that universe after JL/Aquaman or allegedly planned Flashpoint. 
I always thought though, that Titans was their way to expose brand and Dick's name to masses, rather than "testing the water", like what The Flash show did before Barry's movie counterpart debuted on the big screen.

----------


## RedBird

> If DCEU was stable I wouldn't worry about that, but who knows what will happen with that universe after JL/Aquaman or allegedly planned Flashpoint. 
> I always thought though, that Titans was their way to expose brand and Dick's name to masses, rather than "testing the water", like what The Flash show did before Barry's movie counterpart debuted on the big screen.


Is that not what I just said? Is that not what testing the water is implying? That Dick should be exposed to audiences on a tv show platform to familiarize his brand before a film counterpart is released to the public. I think concerning the flash though he is a big enough character where upon even if the tv show failed he probably still would have featured in Justice League and the DCEU regardless by virtue of being a Justice League member. DC have gotta have their Marvel equivalent film universe, so every ones gettin a solo I guess.


But anyways, yeah, the DCEU is a mess but DCs tv shows seems to be doing quite well, we seem to get more and more of those as time goes on (no matter how much the quality drops imo) so I have a careful optimism about this Titans endevour.

----------


## nightbird

> Is that not what I just said? Is that not what testing the water is implying? That Dick should be exposed to audiences on a tv show platform to familiarize his brand before a film counterpart is released to the public. I think concerning the flash though he is a big enough character where upon even if the tv show failed he probably still would have featured in Justice League and the DCEU regardless by virtue of being a Justice League member. DC have gotta have their Marvel equivalent film universe, so every ones gettin a solo I guess.
> 
> 
> But anyways, yeah, the DCEU is a mess but DCs tv shows seems to be doing quite well, we seem to get more and more of those as time goes on (no matter how much the quality drops imo) so I have a careful optimism about this Titans endevour.


Well, maybe I just misunderstood you. I thought you talked about "testing the water" in meaning that if it gets popular they would move with movie; unlike The Flash where his involvement in DCEU was already a done deal with or without show succeeding. 

Yeah, but Titans will be on the new DC streaming service, not CW. If they fail they would probably have less support that other DC/CW shows.

----------


## nightbird

> Caitlin Fairchild existed in the New 52, she had an encounter with Tim's TT crew and former hos own called "The Ravargers" (they didn't last more than 12 issues).


.. and what they just erased (/ignored) her from continuity after that?

----------


## RedBird

> Well, maybe I just misunderstood you. I thought you talked about "testing the water" in meaning that if it gets popular they would move with movie; unlike The Flash where his involvement in DCEU was already a done deal with or without show succeeding. 
> 
> Yeah, but Titans will be on the new DC streaming service, not CW. If they fail they would probably have less support that other DC/CW shows.


Wow, yikes. Is that streaming service even out yet? Or is Titans gonna be one of its, 'debut' tv shows?

----------


## nightbird

> Wow, yikes. Is that streaming service even out yet? Or is Titans gonna be one of its, 'debut' tv shows?


Not yet. They plan to open it with YJ 3rd season and Titans, I believe.

----------


## RedBird

> Not yet. They plan to open it with YJ 3rd season and Titans, I believe.


Damn, Netflix is already a great and widely used platform to release media on, they are REALLY limiting their audience with this dc streaming service. I hope they at least carry the shows over to either CW or netflix, if or when this service fails.

----------


## TheCape

> .. and what they just erased (/ignored) her from continuity after that?


Ignored apparently, but Lodbell referenced Harvest (the main bad guy on the N52 TT that was Caitlin boss for a while) in the most recent issue of RATHO, so as far as Lodbell is concerned, she probably still exist.

Also, the last time when we saw her, she was captured by Harvest and put on hinbernation.

----------


## nightbird

> Damn, Netflix is already a great and widely used platform to release media on, they are REALLY limiting their audience with this dc streaming service. I hope they at least carry the shows over to either CW or netflix, if or when this service fails.


Everyone today wants a piece of the pie  :Stick Out Tongue:  If something goes wrong I can see WB/DC teaming up with Netflix, since Disney decided to stop their partnership.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s41.***********/i091/1711/0a/711bb72d97a2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s013.***********/i324/1711/37/612e7cc903a9.jpg[/IMG]




> Nightwing (Arkham Knight) 1/3 scale statue by Prime 1 Studio
> 
> Prime 1 Studio is proud to present MMDC-12RD: Nightwing Red version from the Batman: Arkham Knight. Raised by his parents in a circus, Dick Grayson was trained to be incredibly acrobatic. His parents were killed after criminals had failed to extort money from the circus. Dick was soon adopted by billionaire Bruce Wayne, who shared his secret identity and extensively trained the boy to become Batman’s sidekick, the first Robin. After he aided Batman for years, Dick eventually moved on and became a hero in his own right. As Nightwing, he worked with Batman as an ally. He was the main protagonist of the GCPD Lockdown DLC of Batman: Arkham Knight.
> 
> Statue features:  - Size approximately 27 inches tall (67.9cm) - Limited Quantity Worldwide - Made of Polystone Material - Expected shipment: June 2018 – August 2018
> Retail Price: $929 US
> Edition Size: 150pcs

----------


## nightbird

> Ignored apparently, but Lodbell referenced Harvest (the main bad guy on the N52 TT that was Caitlin boss for a while) in the most recent issue of RATHO, so as far as Lodbell is concerned, she probably still exist.
> 
> Also, the last time when we saw her, she was captured by Harvest and put on hinbernation.


Ah, I see, thank you =)

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone else hate the Red Nightwing? Discowing > RedWing

Also, we have moved past that DC. I would rather have a Rebirth Nightwing action figure.

----------


## Godlike13

> Anyone else hate the Red Nightwing? Discowing > RedWing
> 
> Also, we have moved past that DC. I would rather have a Rebirth Nightwing action figure.


I do. I shouldn't because its really not that big a deal, but at the same time its so unnecessary and unproductive that it is.

----------


## RedBird

> Anyone else hate the Red Nightwing? Discowing > RedWing


Yes, also yes to the preference for Discowing  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aahz

> DC sucks are promoting any character not called Batman which is a shame Dick should be better promoted and get treatment worthy of the character.
> Jason I know his fans complain which is their right personally I feel he gets the most promotion after Bruce. He got a hint in BvS, he's in the games. He is highly visible so the public are aware.


The thing we as Jason Fans are mostly complaining about the comics side. And when it comes to the comics Dick gets really the far better treatment. Yeah it happens that he gets a crappy appearance in a bigger story (like in Lonely Day of Living) but more often than that he gets imo good ones. In Jason's case almost all his appearances in the Batman-Books are crap (often worse than what Dick gets, just look at the current Batman arc), and the few good appearances out side of his own book are usually in quite small titles.

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## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i643/1711/7b/64700a2ced34.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s018.***********/i503/1711/78/07000a04320c.jpg[/IMG]




> DC Gallery Batman New Adventures Nightwing PVC Diorama
> A Diamond Select Toys release! Robin sets off on a new adventure! As seen in the follow-up to Batman: The Animated Series, titled The New Batman Adventures, Dick Grayson has grown up and changed his look, becoming Nightwing! This PVC Diorama depicts Nightwing crouched atop a pillar, preparing to pounce on an unsuspecting thug. This approximately 12-inch PVC diorama features detailed sculpting and exacting paint applications, and comes packaged in a full-color window box. In scale to all Gallery and Femme Fatales PVC figures. Sculpted by Varner Studios! (Item #MAY172499, SRP: $45.00)


http://news.toyark.com/2017/11/15/st...statues-278299

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## nightbird

> Anyone else hate the Red Nightwing? Discowing > RedWing
> 
> Also, we have moved past that DC. I would rather have a Rebirth Nightwing action figure.


I don't hate it, but I think blue suits him better. And red is already several Batfamily members' color right now.

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## Aahz

> Second.
> Dick was in two of the Arkham Games and was a main fighter in one injustice game.
> Jason was in one of the Arkham Games and was demanded for and became dlc in one injustice game.


I the main reason why Dick isn't in Injustice 2 is that they decided to give Damian his spot. Appart from this Dick had also plenty of appaernces in animated Movies in the last years like Lego Batman, several of the movies in the animated continuity and the Batman Unlimited movies.

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## TheCape

> Yes, also yes to the preference for Discowing*


Discowing costume for the win  :Big Grin:

----------


## nightbird

You all crazy for liking that fashion disaster and I'm not even gonna talk about how impracticall it looked lmfao

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## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i631/1711/03/b47d293f08e9.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbhrYamgyly/

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> You all crazy for liking that fashion disaster and I'm not even gonna talk about how impracticall it looked lmfao


it was sexy and paired well with Starfire, it was plenty "practical," lmao.

I didn't mind the duller red used in Chicago, it worked with the finger-stripes. I generally dislike the original design because it doesn't look like Nightwing or even a superhero, it's like a super-villain if anything. So it's not red in general that I dislike, I just dislike most iterations of red Nightwing (again, Chicagowing was cool, and it's the general evil-ness that makes me love the redesigned Deathwing), including this Arkham Knight statue. As far as other colours go, I wish there was someway we could bring back the gold/yellow from the older designs to the current costume to pay homage to them (well mostly the Discowing one), but it'd never fit.

And since I'm still on this topic, can I also say I'm not a fan of TNBA Nightwing? A simple and direct design like that works great for animation and for young fans to draw and all that, but I'd never buy a statue of that (I understand if others do of course, not dissing them for wanting to). And I'm using simple and direct to be respectful, but honestly it's just bland. Like, Rebirth Nightwing is simple and direct. That design is just super plain. Kinda sad we'll most likely never get like a Young Justice Nightwing statue but we'll be getting TNBA Nightwing ones for years to come, at least that's how I feel.

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## nightbird

> it was sexy and paired well with Starfire, it was plenty "practical," lmao.


"Paired well" because he could pretend that with high collar he is as tall as Starfire?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## RL_Penguin

can i ask a question?
why do you  like Dick Grayson?

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## CPSparkles

> Uh, no?
> 
> First, a hint in BVS? There is currently an entire movie being planned for 'Nightwing' a SOLO movie, is that really comparable to a fan easter egg where the name 'Jason' hasnt even been dropped. PLUS the fact that a Titans TV show where Dick is the lead is in production.
> 
> Second.
> Dick was in two of the Arkham Games and was a main fighter in one injustice game.
> Jason was in one of the Arkham Games and was demanded for and became dlc in one injustice game.
> 
> Your own comparisons still give Dick technically 'more promotion'.
> ...


Yes I'm yet to see any hints if the Nightwing movie but the worlds has had that Jason EE for 2 years now speculated over. That's a 2 year head start 
For a character like Nightwing for a character that sells more than most members of the league. Yes For a character with his history and contribution Yes. For a character they lean on so much to carry things. Yes
Not only were they late to the promoting Nightwing game they squandered options by having him as Robin in outside media for so long.

Yes both were in Arkham games but the Arkham Knight tag goes to Jason and that was the lead.
UTRH was a great movie spotlighting Jason where's Nightwing's movie?

That movie and the Arkham game are more and better promotion than any family outside of Bruce has had.

The problem is that DC lacks consistency across media. Outside Jason who caught the public's eye isn't the dude in the comics and Dick Grayson who is beloved by the world as Robin is Nightwing in the comics. Nightwing who sells issues more than some leaguers is mostly unknown out of comics.

Jason aside from Bruce has had the best PR thought and care was put into UTRH no one else has had that.

DC should put out a Grayson series. Animated like Archer. It's different it's new it's fresh. 

Dick does suffer from Batman's shadow because DC keeps him there 
don't do enough to build his world away from Batman 
None of them can ever really do that even Jason for all his "Outlaw not under Batman's rule "wears a huge freaking bat across his chest.

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## RedBird

> Yes I'm yet to see any hints if the Nightwing movie but the worlds has had that Jason EE for 2 years now speculated over. That's a 2 year head start 
> For a character like Nightwing for a character that sells more than most members of the league. Yes For a character with his history and contribution Yes. For a character they lean on so much to carry things. Yes
> Not only were they late to the promoting Nightwing game they squandered options by having him as Robin in outside media for so long.


You realise you are still talking about the public discussing a character, which is what I was explaining. The public latched onto Jason, but that doesnt mean he has received extensive promotion from DC. Promotion is a term from advertising, companies promote, not people. Thats not to say fan support doesnt help, of course it does, I believe its one of the strongest and most desirable types of support for a series/show/character etc especially with how accessible social media and creative media platforms are now. But thats a different thing to promotion, which is what you were claiming.

Second you speak as if I said Dick SHOULDN'T receive any promotion from DC, as if I'm unaware that they  as a company definitely lean on the characters popularity to sell products. I said no such thing. I was simply correcting your claims that Jason was promoted more highly. He isn't, again, promotion is marketing, its the public who speak of him, who have found some kind of niche or attachment not DC as much, tis why I was throwing suggestions out for why Dick has had a harder time finding that platform for public attention to be drawn to his character.




> Yes both were in Arkham games but the Arkham Knight tag goes to Jason and that was the lead.
> UTRH was a great movie spotlighting Jason where's Nightwing's movie?
> 
> That movie and the Arkham game are more and better promotion than any family outside of Bruce has had.



Jason was an antagonist in Arkham Knight, not the lead.
Nightwing has yet to receive a solo movie, and neither has Jason. 
Remember again, he was the antagonist in UTRH too, not the lead, he doesnt appear in the UTRH movie as much as Bruce does. So if neither have received solo film ventures then it would come down to appearances in animated features, which, 'shockingly' means, that Dick still has been featured in many more animated films and shows than Jason has. High numbers of appearances can help but ultimately they are not that important, I mentioned this before but quality is important here, Dick can appear in 100 different things and it wont make a lick of difference if the audience dont care for the piece of media in general. Teen Titans was a fantastic way of introducing Dick to young audiences, I have no doubt that there are young fans who found out about Dick and the titans and comics in general through the show. All Dick needs is one (or a few) well executed pieces of media, a show or film, that is clearly orientated to more mature audiences, teens and adults alike (unlike TT which was child orientated). Jason has not had many appearances or _'promotions'_, but the few he has had were either successful or targeted ages teen and up due to the dark nature of his most popular story.





> The problem is that DC lacks consistency across media. Outside Jason who caught the public's eye isn't the dude in the comics and Dick Grayson who is beloved by the world as Robin is Nightwing in the comics. Nightwing who sells issues more than some leaguers is mostly unknown out of comics.
> 
> Jason aside from Bruce has had the best PR thought and care was put into UTRH no one else has had that.


DC are stupid when it comes to how they advertise their content no doubt, but sometimes it does come down to dumb luck. The right people, working on the right projects aimed at the right audience.

I have no clue what you mean by 'PR thought put into UTRH'. PR refers to how information is spread. Are you implying LESS THOUGHT in information and advertising has been put into previous or the most recent dc films? I can assure you DC don't favoritise Jason or hell, most characters in THAT aspect. Back in 2010 there was no reason to put 'great thought' into a character which no one knew what to do with and was supposed to be killed off again and only kept around from fan demand. If DC are making a film they just make the damn thing, try to find the right people with the right ideas, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The stars just aligned for UTRH, it was fortune found in the hands of capable creators, not any special 'thought or care' that isn't already placed into any other feature. Hell if anything, the more recent Killing Joke film probably had more care placed on its PR and marketing considering it actually got to open in theaters rather than being a usual direct to dvd film. But gee wizz look at the dud that turned out to be. Pushing a film can only take you so far, again, quality is the key.

----------


## Pohzee

> can i ask a question?
> why do you  like Dick Grayson?


As the first and most iconic Robin, Dick Grayson's growth from childhood to adulthood presents something that we rarely get to see in superhero comics: lasting change and development, all of which played out in the 1970's and 80's. His appearance as Batman's sidekick opened the door for many other youth heroes and perhaps the concept of generations of superheroes. His growth from sidekick to solo hero is the ultimate coming of age story. The tale of "Robin grows up" is a story too obvious _not_ to be told.

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## yohyoi

Dick was in Lego Batman, Teen Titans and Harley Quinn movies this year. Jason isn't really well known outside one movie and the games community.

He may not star in these, but he is still one of DC's most promoted heroes; more than Aquaman and Green Lantern. People like him and they buy the products. We just need to wait because DC has plans for him. As Raptor says, "You build up the brand" or something like that.

Dick will star in two series next year. Damian has more on-screen appearances than Jason. Damian was actually in Injustice 2 (the little brat), not just a DLC.

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## RedBird

> can i ask a question?
> why do you  like Dick Grayson?


Cause he is a complicated character.
One who is sometimes full of 'contradictions' that only strengthen him and make him more well rounded as a character.
He is often seen as the 'nice one', but I think he is just more well balanced. Like yeah, he is friendly and jokey with people but when sh#t goes down he knows when to be the stern leader who places his job ahead of it all. He can be preachy about his views, but he is also supportive and believes in the best of people. Whilst he is kind to people and often place others first, he can also be stubborn as a mule and can also completely cut the empathy right outta himself if he is pushed too far. He is seen as so nice by everyone, has a fantastic relationship with so many heroes and is one of the most entrusted allies in the DCU for his strong morals, compassion and all round good nature, but he can absolutely also throw those connections aside and alienate those around him with his anger and at times refusal to compromise.

He is a fantastic hero with interesting traits and engaging flaws.

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## RedBird

> As the first and most iconic Robin, Dick Grayson's growth from childhood to adulthood presents something that we rarely get to see in superhero comics: lasting change and development, all of which played out in the 1970's and 80's. His appearance as Batman's sidekick opened the door for many other youth heroes and perhaps the concept of generations of superheroes. His growth from sidekick to solo hero is the ultimate coming of age story. The tale of "Robin grows up" is a story too obvious _not_ to be told.


Gosh yes, how could I not mention that in my post.
My favourite development for Dick occured throughout the 70s and 80s, those appearences are what made me love him.

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## yohyoi

> can i ask a question?
> why do you  like Dick Grayson?


Dick is a pioneer and outlier in comics.

He was the first teenage sidekick. He led the first teenage superhero team. He was one of the first who outgrew his past hero identity. *He was the first to show premarital sex in comics (Holy fornication, Batman! Why did I bold this!).* He was the first to don the Batman cowl after Bruce. He has been a success for the nearly eight decades he has existed. Nightwing has a very sexy butt. *He is also the hottest comics character of all time (Take that Gambit and your stupid accent!).* But most importantly his name is DICK; hahaha! that's hilarious.

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## nightbird

[IMG]http://s41.***********/i094/1711/bc/1acb3fbc14a2.jpg[/IMG]

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## nightbird

> Dick was in Lego Batman, Teen Titans and Harley Quinn movies this year. Jason isn't really well known outside one movie and the games community.
> 
> He may not star in these, but he is still one of DC's most promoted heroes; more than Aquaman and Green Lantern. People like him and they buy the products. We just need to wait because DC has plans for him. As Raptor says, "You build up the brand" or something like that.
> 
> Dick will star in two series next year. Damian has more on-screen appearances than Jason. Damian was actually in Injustice 2 (the little brat), not just a DLC.


I’m trying to forget here that he was in that Batman & Harley Quinn abnormality... 
He was only good in Lego Batman Movie and even then didn’t look like himself.

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## RedBird

> [IMG]http://s41.***********/i094/1711/bc/1acb3fbc14a2.jpg[/IMG]


This outfit is so ridiculously EXTRA, like with the unnecessary little rope ties along the wrist and waist, but I'm SO glad they let the artist have fun with it.  :Big Grin:  Sejics work is so damn pretty

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## TheCape

> Cause he is a complicated character.
> One who is sometimes full of 'contradictions' that only strengthen him and make him more well rounded as a character.
> He is often seen as the 'nice one', but I think he is just more well balanced. Like yeah, he is friendly and jokey with people but when sh#t goes down he knows when to be the stern leader who places his job ahead of it all. He can be preachy about his views, but he is also supportive and believes in the best of people. Whilst he is kind to people and often place others first, he can also be stubborn as a mule and can also completely cut the empathy right outta himself if he is pushed too far. He is seen as so nice by everyone, has a fantastic relationship with so many heroes and is one of the most entrusted allies in the DCU for his strong morals, compassion and all round good nature, but he can absolutely also throw those connections aside and alienate those around him with his anger and at times refusal to compromise.
> 
> He is a fantastic hero with interesting traits and engaging flaws.


Couldn't have said it better myself, this are pretty much the reasons of why i like Dick and hate to.see him sterotype as "the nice" or "the sexy" one, they are big disservices to his characthers (the same can be said for the other 3 boys and how fandlm sometimes view then). Another thing that i like about Dick, is his determination, crime would never be gone, people would suffer, he is pretty realist guy considering the universe where his lives on, he know that his heroic would never make a permanent difference around the world and that is a battle without end, but damm him if he just stays down and does nothing.

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## RedBird

> I’m trying to forget here that he was in that Batman & Harley Quinn abnormality... 
> He was only good in Lego Batman Movie and even then didn’t look like himself.


Agreed about the Harley Quinn thing, quality hasn't been in Dicks favour as of the lately. I mean, I guess he is fine in the newest animated films as well, theres nothing wrong with him being a side character, but I feel like he is more just played for laughs there, rather than used or given development, which is kinda underwhelming. 

I don't mind kid Grayson lookin a little different for the nostalgic 60s Batman sake, (or at least I think thats what they were aiming for, something lighthearted against angsty modern lego batman). I'm just glad that Lego movie introduced the whole family element to the batman franchise, to a wide scale audience too, with Dick Grayson as Batmans son no less. I mean, that will come in handy once (if ever) dc begins introduces the batfam. Most people are unaware that there even is a family element to Batman outside of Bruce's dead parents. I mean, thats kinda what the original lego batman from the lego movie was personifying, the public perception of the character who is ghastly misrepresented and or otherwise exaggerated as a billionaire 'emo' prick.

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## TheCape

> DC are stupid when it comes to how they advertise their content no doubt, but sometimes it does come down to dumb luck. The right people, working on the right projects aimed at the right audience.


I think that DC is also scared of presenting Dick as good or better than Batman, Bruce is the top dog of the franschise and make him look lesser that one of his derivatives is a risk that they don't want to run into.

Also, althougth Dick has a lot of other media apperances, IMHO, only the Teen Titan show and the YJ cartoon managed to get his personality correctly, the rest is pretty forgetable. Jasos is stuck with UTRH on repeat for the time being, sadly.

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## RedBird

> I think that DC is also scared of presenting Dick as good or better than Batman, Bruce is the top dog of the franschise and make him look lesser that one of his derivatives is a risk that they don't want to run into.


I don't know man, on the one hand, that does sound dumb enough to be true, but also I want to think that they don't REALLY reckon Batman could possibly be seen as lesser in any way shape of form at this point.




> Also, althougth Dick has a lot of other media apperances, IMHO, only the Teen Titan show and the YJ cartoon managed to get his personality correctly, the rest is pretty forgetable. Jasos is stuck with UTRH on repeat for the time being, sadly.


Yeah Teen Titans and YJ were the best of course, he got to be the lead in those features, though I think BTAS was pretty good too, and a few animated appearances here and there have also been decent, like his cameo in UTRH.

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## nightbird

> Agreed about the Harley Quinn thing, quality hasn't been in Dicks favour as of the lately. I mean, I guess he is fine in the newest animated films as well, theres nothing wrong with him being a side character, but I feel like he is more just played for laughs there, rather than used or given development, which is kinda underwhelming. 
> 
> I don't mind kid Grayson lookin a little different for the nostalgic 60s Batman sake, (or at least I think thats what they were aiming for, something lighthearted against angsty modern lego batman). I'm just glad that Lego movie introduced the whole family element to the batman franchise, to a wide scale audience too, with Dick Grayson as Batmans son no less. I mean, that will come in handy once (if ever) dc begins introduces the batfam. Most people are unaware that there even is a family element to Batman outside of Bruce's dead parents. I mean, thats kinda what the original lego batman from the lego movie was personifying, the public perception of the character who is ghastly misrepresented and or otherwise exaggerated as a billionaire 'emo' prick.


Yeah, I prefer quality over quantity. He is in a lot of current DCAU (Batman/Titans) movies, but he has no real personality or depth in that movies. They even managed to turn his DickBats moments into pure snore fest. “He should never be better than Bruce in anything” probably their motto, when they write his parts lol 

My little problem with The Lego Batman Movie version, that he looked like male version of Carrie Kelly, rather than himself. But I love the movie overall.

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## TheCape

> Yeah Teen Titans and YJ were the best of course, he got to be the lead in those features, though I think BTAS was pretty good too, and a few animated appearances here and there have also been decent, like his cameo in UTRH.


I'm going to be the odd man out and said that i honest to god, don't remenber much of Dick Grayson in BTAS, nor what he did most of the times, except for the episode when goes agaisnt Tony Zucco, i might need some memory refresh, but i remenber enjoying the "Tim Drake only in name" Robin more than Dick in that universe, for some reason.




> I don't know man, on the one hand, that does sound dumb enough to be true, but also I want to think that they don't REALLY reckon Batman could possibly be seen as lesser in any way shape of form at this point.


Maybe is cynical of me to think that, but i think that there is enought circumstancial evidence of that from across comic books and media, Batman is HUGE, so showing somebody as better than him seems to reallly be a problem (just look Arkham Knight).

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## WonderNight

> I think that DC is also scared of presenting Dick as good or better than Batman, Bruce is the top dog of the franschise and make him look lesser that one of his derivatives is a risk that they don't want to run into.


the reason they don't push nightwing in outside media is because they still view him as a sidekick or as batman-lite. So they just use as batman support character or batman replacement  or Jr.batman. until dc starts letting nightwing do and be his own thing this is the best we're gonna get.

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## RedBird

> I'm going to be the odd man out and said that i honest to god, don't remenber much of Dick Grayson in BTAS, nor what he did most of the times, except for the episode when goes agaisnt Tony Zucco, i might need some memory refresh, but i remenber enjoying the "Tim Drake only in name" Robin more than Dick in that universe, for some reason.
> 
> 
> Maybe is cynical of me to think that, but i think that there is enought circumstancial evidence of that from across comic books and media, Batman is HUGE, so showing somebody as better than him seems to reallly be a problem (just look Arkham Knight).


Im with you there, I enjoyed TDOIN Robin more so than Dicks, but both his Robin and Nightwing still felt pretty IC when he was around.

And to be fair with AK that was a given, like of course AK wasnt going to overpower Bats, he is antagonist and the protag will for sure win the day there. (I have more to say on Jasons use in ak and utrh comics/film but I dont wanna fill the Dick thread with that rn) 

In Dicks case surely this shouldnt be such an issue, considering he isnt on an opposing side to a unwinnable foe (batman). And besides its not about showing a character as better in any way but just equal, and if Bruce can stand among Justice League members who are all gods among men and still be valued then his capabilities shouldn't be in question. I think of how the marvel films present characters like Bucky alongside Cap or even now (and possibly more relevant) spiderman alongside ironman who has taken on a ALMOST paternal role in Peters life as far as the dynamics of their relationship is concerned. I get that the batfam are much much more connected and historically defined by each other, but its clearly not impossible to present heroes in that kind of relationship, and honestly both characters are better for it as far as the cinematic verse is concerned. Theres no worries from marvel that people will start not seeing iron man as the big guy anymore, they were smart enough to know that people are A) are suckers for emotional relationships between heroes and B) to use their already popular hero as a springboard for another hero under the guise of a mentor role. 

Don't get me wrong, you have every right to be cynical of DCs tactics, we all do :P. But damn when you really stop to look at ways it can be done and the ways Nightwing could appeal to the public its frustrating. (eg: 'as a young and free spirited hero of Gotham, fighting crime and helping the innocent with a smile.' Cheesy? Yeah, but as a tagline its not untrue, and it helps him stand out from Bats at least in his introduction (more complexities can be followed through if he is successful). Besides Robins lighthearted appearance in Lego Batman was favored by audiences, I think people are much more willing and eager to see heroes who can smile and show clear compassion. WW was another good cinematic example of that)

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## TheCape

@RedBird
Again, mostly agreed woth you, i think shouldn't be too hard for then to be presented as equals, specially because they have been since the mid 80s (in spite of Dick's insecurities, it was obvious that he was no sidekick anymore), but i don't think that DC see it in the same way, again, the negative part on me is talking, for the love of god, i hope that i'm wrong.

About the Marvel movies, i agreed with you to an extent,.but the fan of Spider-Man on me completly disagreed with the part of Tony mentoring Peter, is one the most idiotics ideas that i had seen and betrays the core of the characther, but i understan why it was, i just don't like it and now the charachter probably would never move from that.... but that's just me  :Big Grin: .

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## RedBird

> @RedBird
> Again, mostly agreed woth you, i think shouldn't be too hard for then to be presented as equals, specially because they have been since the mid 80s (in spite of Dick's insecurities, it was obvious that he was no sidekick anymore), but i don't think that DC see it in the same way, again, the negative part on me is talking, for the love of god, i hope that i'm wrong.
> 
> About the Marvel movies, i agreed with you to an extent,.but the fan of Spider-Man on me completly disagreed with the part of Tony mentoring Peter, is one the most idiotics ideas that i had seen and betrays the core of the characther, but i understan why it was, i just don't like it and now the charachter probably would never move from that.... but that's just me .


Oh dude I agree 100%, I hate the idea of Tony mentoring Peter, (and second, ya shoulda been on caps side pete!) but most audiences still love it and now there is a presentation of Iron Man in the mcu that feels mature (with honestly the mcus iron mans first decent attempt at character growth) and also there is a spiderman that is critically well received once again. I was just using them as an example of a well known and loved hero being used to springboard another new generation, of course Batman and Nightwing are a completely different picture all together where we HOPE that connection that was placed between the practically strangers of pete and tony, can be used for them as well, to a much better degree considering their ACTUAL family bond. But yeah, I hate it too, dont worry :P

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## TheCape

> Oh dude I agree 100%, I hate the idea of Tony mentoring Peter, (and second, ya shoulda been on caps side pete!) but most audiences still love it and now there is a presentation of Iron Man in the mcu that feels mature (with honestly the mcus iron mans first decent attempt at character growth) and also there is a spiderman that is critically well received once again. I was just using them as an example of a well known and loved hero being used to springboard another new generation, of course Batman and Nightwing are a completely different picture all together where we HOPE that connection that was placed between the practically strangers of pete and tony, can be used for them as well, to a much better degree considering their ACTUAL family bond. But yeah, I hate it too, dont worry :P


In that case
my-man.jpg

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## yohyoi

I don't think using Batman as a problem of Dick's rise to greater heights is right. Both characters can be represented well without one character losing for the other. I'm probably one of the few fans here who don't compare Bruce and Dick much. I don't see how it could help any of those characters. It's probably a big reason I don't like going to other Robin threads, since their is an obvious Dick insecurity complex there which for me is disturbing. The Robins fans tend to fight more than their favorite characters.

I enjoyed Lego Batman and Judas Contract. Were they perfect representation of my favorite character? No, but they had something which I attribute to Dick. From Dick's relationships with the Titans and the Bat family to his cool and supportive manner to everyone. It's like Batman. I have portrayals I like and I don't like. Dick will continue being used. Anyone who tells you no is mad. The character has the history to back it up. Will it be great? Hopefully.

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## yohyoi

> This outfit is so ridiculously EXTRA, like with the unnecessary little rope ties along the wrist and waist, but I'm SO glad they let the artist have fun with it.  Sejics work is so damn pretty


Dick rocking that midriff better than Supergirl  :Wink:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, I do think Dick being the "nice one" is overemphasized a lot. One of the best things about Seeley's run is that Dick is an absolute asshole at times to people, and not just villains, but sometimes his loved ones like Bruce, Damian or Shawn, lol. I know that sounds bad, but I just like that Seeley wasn't afraid to write Dick like a real person and not just an angsty teddy bear or something.

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## TheCape

> I don't think using Batman as a problem of Dick's rise to greater heights is right. Both characters can be represented well without one character losing for the other.*


It can be for sure, as you saod i don't think that is impossible for Dick to rise and not make Batman look bad, but i don't think that DC see it in that way.

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## TheCape

> Yeah, I do think Dick being the "nice one" is overemphasized a lot. One of the best things about Seeley's run is that Dick is an absolute asshole at times to people, and not just villains, but sometimes his loved ones like Bruce, Damian or Shawn, lol. I know that sounds bad, but I just like that Seeley wasn't afraid to write Dick like a real person and not just an angsty teddy bear or something.


That is one of the most old flaws of Dick, when he is stressed or upset, he can easily turn into an ashole toward the people that loves him

----------


## yohyoi

> It can be for sure, as you saod i don't think that is impossible for Dick to rise and not make Batman look bad, but i don't think that DC see it in that way.


Eh, who knows what DC is thinking these days other than "How to get some of that MCU monies?"...

----------


## RedBird

> I don't think using Batman as a problem of Dick's rise to greater heights is right.


Exactly, Batman aint the problem, his existence shouldnt be an issue to Dick. If there are reservations on using Dick from dc I cant speak on that front but realistically they can both co exist and even prehaps help to characterise or define each other through their dynamic, I mean, thats literally how their whole relationship works and was best developed.




> Dick will continue being used. Anyone who tells you no is mad. The character has the history to back it up. Will it be great? Hopefully.


 Hopefully yeah, I mean as long as Dick is used ( which he usually is) Im sure there will be some good or even great portrayls of him, there outta be.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah, I do think Dick being the "nice one" is overemphasized a lot. One of the best things about Seeley's run is that Dick is an absolute asshole at times to people, and not just villains, but sometimes his loved ones like Bruce, Damian or Shawn, lol. I know that sounds bad, but I just like that Seeley wasn't afraid to write Dick like a real person and not just an angsty teddy bear or something.


I cant say im a huge fan of Seeleys run but Im right there with ya on that aspect. Dick acting out and actually being rough and or snappy at even loved ones felt entirely accurate to his personality, especially with the pressure he was under.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Another thing I'm glad Seeley started bringing back is how much of a workaholic Dick can be. In a lot of respects like that, Dick is really not different from Batman, but it's a similarity that makes sense for who he is (since Bruce is his mentor), but without making him seem like a "Batman-lite" that we get sometimes. So Dick putting his mission first and unintentionally having commitment issues because of it was a good way to drive the drama in the book, instead of just writing the characters poorly. 

And I have to agree, I'm pretty optimistic about Dick in other media now. If Titans turns out good, that'll be a big boost for him, and Young Justice also has a strong following from teens and adults, and there's the rising hype about his DCEU movie. Even if the movie doesn't happen, there are more people thinking about Nightwing then there were a few years ago simply by it being talked about so much. And I'm not sure the Batman Ninja or future Teen Titans animated movies will do much for him, they could still turn out to be good takes on his character for us to enjoy.

----------


## Aahz

@the who gets the most promotion thing

In the time Jason appeared in just one animated movie Dick was in:
- Under the Red Hood
- 5 of the DCUAOM Movies (Son of Batman, Batman vs. Robin, Bad Blood, JLA vs. Titans, Judas Contract)
- all 3 Batman Unlimited Movies (Animal Instincts, Monster Mayhem, Mechs vs. Mutants) and several of the shorts set in that universe
- Batman and Harley Quinn
- very likely JLA Adventures: Trapped in Time
- the Lego Batman movie
- at least 2 other Lego movies ("Gotham City Breakout" and "Batman: Be-Leaguered")

And on top of that he was one of the main characters in "Young Justice" and is still in "Teen Titans Go".

----------


## nightbird

[img]http://s015.***********/i330/1711/36/fbb764cdae4c.jpg[/img]

----------


## nightbird

[img]http://s019.***********/i619/1711/1f/b17a679db59e.jpg[/img]
https://twitter.com/ArtofNickRobles/...87931361234944

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Morning Wood?

IMG_0451.jpg
https://instagram.com/p/BbljZ6Jj0jJ/

IMG_0452.jpg
https://instagram.com/p/BbmLb5JgL3-/

----------


## okiedokiewo

> @the who gets the most promotion thing
> 
> In the time Jason appeared in just one animated movie Dick was in:
> - Under the Red Hood
> - 5 of the DCUAOM Movies (Son of Batman, Batman vs. Robin, Bad Blood, JLA vs. Titans, Judas Contract)
> - all 3 Batman Unlimited Movies (Animal Instincts, Monster Mayhem, Mechs vs. Mutants) and several of the shorts set in that universe
> - Batman and Harley Quinn
> - very likely JLA Adventures: Trapped in Time
> - the Lego Batman movie
> ...


A claim that Jason gets more promotion than Dick is too ridiculous and false to even be worthy of a debate.

----------


## dietrich

I like how people forget that Dick Grayson ROBIN is the one that had the main chunk of Teen Titans and Young Justice. Nighgwing was n season 2 but he wasn't really as prominent as DickRobin YJ 2 Blue and Kaldur take focus. The latter being so badass that everything fell to the shadows and that' all folks remember.

Dick Grayson gets  plenty promotion.
Nightwing not so much until recently and even those we aren't following him. Nightwing doesn't have an UTRH or SOB or even what Blue and Kaldur got in YJ.

Nightwing isn't in Teen Titans.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I like how people forget that Dick Grayson ROBIN is the one that had the main chunk of Teen Titans and Young Justice. Nighgwing was n season 2 but he wasn't really as prominent as DickRobin YJ 2 Blue and Kaldur take focus. The latter being so badass that everything fell to the shadows and that' all folks remember.
> 
> Dick Grayson gets  plenty promotion.
> Nightwing not so much until recently and even those we aren't following him. Nightwing doesn't have an UTRH or SOB or even what Blue and Kaldur got in YJ.
> 
> Nightwing isn't in Teen Titans.


You're right about that. But Nightwing was a fan favourite in YJ, don't underestimate how much people liked the character there. Hell, I only really started reading comics because of that. When people think about YJ, they still think of the OG 6, even with the timeskip, and it'll likely still be the same with Outsiders since everyone will be wondering what Dick, Artemis, and Conner are doing. 

Anyways yeah, Nightwing didn't get his real focus movie the way Jason or Damian did. But Bad Blood starred Dick and Kate tho, and Dick was a major player in Judas Contract, so you can't really say Dick doesn't get anything. 

And yeah, it was Robin, not Nightwing in Teen Titans (and Go!), but viewers know that the TT (and TTG) Robin becomes Nightwing as an adult. So the 20-somethings who watched TT like me, and the kids watching TTG now know where Robin is going. 

Again, the fact that a DCEU movie is even said to be happening has more people thinking about Dick than before, it's a similar effect to the one with all the "Jason is Joker" and "Batfleck's solo movie will be UtRH" theories had on Jason's popularity. Movie hype really invades the casual fan's mindshare. And the Titans series will only add to it. It sucks that the Arkham games did Dick dirty tho, as did the Injustice ones, because they really could have boosted Dick's popularity the way Jason's was.

----------


## RedBird

> I like how people forget that Dick Grayson ROBIN is the one that had the main chunk of Teen Titans and Young Justice. Nighgwing was n season 2 but he wasn't really as prominent as DickRobin YJ 2 Blue and Kaldur take focus. The latter being so badass that everything fell to the shadows and that' all folks remember.


No one forgot, we were dicussing Dick + Promotion. Not any particular identity to be fair.




> Dick Grayson gets plenty promotion.
> Nightwing not so much until recently and even those we aren't following him.


Yes Dick gets plenty promotion, facts are facts, let us close that case as others in the thread have mentioned. 
Moving on, it is interesting to see Dicks Robin more often presented, although I feel that either comes with the territory of media featuring him either trying to display character progression (robin to nightwing), or it may be due to the fact that he is just much more known even in pop culture as 'The First Robin', and 'Dick Grayson, ward of Bruce Wayne'. etc. Teen Titans animated show was great in terms of presentation for Robin Dick, now as things like Young Justice surface once again we get more opportunity to see Nightwing Dick, hopefully. Plus the recent animated dc films have featured both him and his team. He's not hurtin for the quantity of roles, even as Nightwing now with the recent games and animated features, but more the quality of roles. You know, something he gets to be a main character in as Nightwing, and preferably not that Harley Quinn nonsense 0_0




> Nightwing doesn't have an UTRH or SOB or even what Blue and Kaldur got in YJ.
> 
> Nightwing isn't in Teen Titans.


Yeah, you're right, he doesnt have a film where he is an antagonist with less screen time than the main character and ACTUAL lead, you know, Batman. UTRH was a quality film, but I don't think it makes sense to seek it out as #goals for any other character. If we are talking about a film to service a character that would require a _solo film_ and Damian is the only robin character to receive anything close to a solo film, or multiple depending on how you want to view it. Something like SOB in terms of a robin origin story but instead for Dick would be cool though, or even something featuring his Nightwing and the Titans, but you know, focused around his generation, like in the most recent films. Hell personally for me, 'grown up' Dick and Starfire were the best part of that film. 

Also just to erase any confusion we were also referring to the live action Teen Titans production which still in unclear about whether or not Dick will be Robin or Nightwing, or progressing to Nightwing from Robin etc.

----------


## RedBird

> A claim that Jason gets more promotion than Dick is too ridiculous and false to even be worthy of a debate.


Ikr? Like I get peoples perception is one way, but facts are another. And since promotion is a marketing practice that people seem to want to measure through quantity, you cant disagree with the numbers. But you're right, its not worth a debate, I just wanted to correct the misconception. 

Anyways, kinda wanna move past that and keep discussing overall presentation for Dick within and outside of comics instead, what do people think is the best projects for the character? Is the reliance and popularity of his Robin heritage holding him back as Nightwing? Do you think he will flourish more in a live action form of media or animated form?

----------


## TheCape

> Something like SOB in terms of a robin origin story but instead for Dick would be cool though


It would be, just less boring (seriously is surprising how dull those movies were).

----------


## Badou

That has sort of been the problem for the last few decades. Dick has gotten some promotion, but very little of it has been as Nightwing and that is who he is stuck as in the comics. Only recently have they started giving him a bit more promotion as Nightwing, but this is what they should have been doing years and years ago. The first time Dick got an animated movie that focused on him he was actually Batman in it with Bad Blood, lol. 

I've said this before but UTRH and Arkham Knight for Jason dwarf anything Dick has been in as Nightwing in terms of mass promotion and general public awareness. So while Jason has been in far fewer other media adaptations those two probably carry more weight than any of the Nightwing appearances so far. Nightwing still hasn't had that "killer" appearance in another piece of media that cements the character in the public's mind, especially one that makes them aware of the transition from Robin to Nightwing. Maybe the Titans show will be that or the Nightwing movie will be that, but if they had done something sooner maybe Dick wouldn't be stuck as a B-List hero as Nigthwing.

----------


## RedBird

> It would be, just less boring (seriously is surprising how dull those movies were).


I don't know who has been in charge of the latest films, but yeah, its amazing how empty they feel in their impact.

----------


## Aahz

> @the who gets the most promotion thing
> 
> In the time Jason appeared in just one animated movie Dick was in:
> - Under the Red Hood
> - 5 of the DCUAOM Movies (Son of Batman, Batman vs. Robin, Bad Blood, JLA vs. Titans, Judas Contract)
> - all 3 Batman Unlimited Movies (Animal Instincts, Monster Mayhem, Mechs vs. Mutants) and several of the shorts set in that universe
> - Batman and Harley Quinn
> - very likely JLA Adventures: Trapped in Time
> - the Lego Batman movie
> ...


I Just realised that I forgot "Return of the Caped Crusader".

----------


## RedBird

> I've said this before but UTRH and Arkham Knight for Jason dwarf anything Dick has been in as Nightwing in terms of mass promotion and general public awareness. So while Jason has been in far fewer other media adaptations those two probably carry more weight than any of the Nightwing appearances so far. Nightwing still hasn't had that "killer" appearance in another piece of media that cements the character in the public's mind, especially one that makes them aware of the transition from Robin to Nightwing. Maybe the Titans show will be that or the Nightwing movie will be that, but if they had done something sooner maybe Dick wouldn't be stuck as a B-List hero as Nigthwing.


I don't think its too late though, its never been a better time for heroes as far as pop culture is concerned. Like I mentioned in previous posts, I think the age of broody lonely heroes is kinda losing its appeal in the public eye and the idea of 'hero groups' or even somewhat duos, seems to be popular and successful when executed right. ie; Avengers, GOTG, the recent Spiderman film, perhaps even the JL film etc. And if we hypothetically can assume this, then this may actually be the best time to begin building upon the various characters within Batmans universe, starting with Dick and maybe Barbara too, hell even the appearance of the Robin in Lego Batman, or the Robin suit in BVS may have helped to open the door for more casual movie goers to accept that no, Batman despite what tons have films have told the public, does not work alone. I think perhaps even the idea that the perception around Batman may change in the publics eye, was what was holding back the representation of the batfam, and yes I'm aware how ridiculous that it. :P

----------


## Aahz

> I've said this before but UTRH and Arkham Knight for Jason dwarf anything Dick has been in as Nightwing in terms of mass promotion and general public awareness. So while Jason has been in far fewer other media adaptations those two probably carry more weight than any of the Nightwing appearances so far. Nightwing still hasn't had that "killer" appearance in another piece of media that cements the character in the public's mind, especially one that makes them aware of the transition from Robin to Nightwing. Maybe the Titans show will be that or the Nightwing movie will be that, but if they had done something sooner maybe Dick wouldn't be stuck as a B-List hero as Nigthwing.


But at least UTRH is really kind of exception thats apparently hard to replicate, Son of Batman was obviously supposed to do something similar for Damian, and I don't have the feeling that the impact of that movie was as big as the one UTRH had.

And about Dick as Nightwing opposed to the other identities. I don't think it really matters, even casual fans of these characters will usually learn about the Nightwing identity at some point.

----------


## Frontier

> I Just realised that I forgot "Return of the Caped Crusader".


And it's sequel with Two-Face  :Smile: .

----------


## RedBird

[jjmk-jjmk]
I love how some artists have embraced the ankle stripes but still haven't let go of the finger stripes. Bless em.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

Long live to finger stripes Nightwing, they would never die.

----------


## Aahz

> And it's sequel with Two-Face .


Oh I forgott that this one is all ready out, since I'm still waiting for the release in my country.

----------


## dietrich

> It would be, just less boring (seriously is surprising how dull those movies were).





> I don't know who has been in charge of the latest films, but yeah, its amazing how empty they feel in their impact.


Boring is subjective impact is not

For fans like myself, fanfan, Imperfectus and a host of others on here Son of Batman is the reason we got into comics [reading] despite growing up with stuff like Teen Titans, BTAS, YJ, Spiderman, X-Men and all the other comic movies [animated or otherwise]

 The notoriety of and love for Damian Wayne amongst casuals on social, the use or even understanding who the tag Son of Batman is referring to without ever picking up a comic shows that it had an impact. The passion and love some put into hating Damian  or the movie itself shows that it is one of the few DC movies that left a lasting impression.

Love it or hate it that movie had impact more so than 80% of DC animated films which as enjoyable as they might have been hardly ever get referenced or remembered today.

----------


## RedBird

> Boring is subjective impact is not
> 
> For fans like myself, fanfan, Imperfectus and a host of others on here Son of Batman is the reason we got into comics [reading] despite growing up with stuff like Teen Titans, BTAS, YJ, Spiderman, X-Men and all the other comic movies [animated or otherwise]
> 
>  The notoriety of and love for Damian Wayne amongst casuals on social, the use or even understanding who the tag Son of Batman is referring to without ever picking up a comic shows that it had an impact. The passion and love some put into hating Damian  or the movie itself shows that it is one of the few DC movies that left a lasting impression.
> 
> Love it or hate it that movie had impact more so than 80% of DC animated films which as enjoyable as they might have been hardly ever get referenced or remembered today.


Nah, impact is subjective too my dude.
EG: Son of Batman to me, was not impactful as a film. See? 

To give you more context, when I spoke of its impact to me, I'm referring to how much I was engaged with the film, and how much of an impression it left on me after woulds, which as I mentioned was not much.

My main problem with the films is that the thematic structure felt weak as did the writing and plot in some sections, and as a interpretation of the 'SOB' comics I didnt enjoy it anywhere near as much as the source material, and I didnt think the story as an animated feature provided anything new or interesting. Plus Damians personality felt kinda off to me.

But whatever, go off dude, you do you, I wasn't doubting that someone out there liked it, or was now more knowledgeable about dc comics for it. I think you misunderstood, this convo was me and Cape talking bout our general dislike or rather indifference for the film, not how much _audience impact_ it made or anything regarding public/critical success or awareness.

----------


## TheCape

@Dietrich
As RedBird said, i wasn't talking about impact, just quality, from my (subjective) point view. I thougth that it was boring, there has been some sligth improvement with last instalments, but is still pretty dull in comparison with other works.



> Plus Damians personality felt kinda off to me.


I think that they got his personality rigth for the most part, they just focus a tad too much in the negatives aspects of it and he come across as less likable. Otherwise, yeah, the plotting of the movie is weak as f**k.

----------


## dietrich

> But at least UTRH is really kind of exception thats apparently hard to replicate, Son of Batman was obviously supposed to do something similar for Damian, and I don't have the feeling that the impact of that movie was as big as the one UTRH had.
> 
> And about Dick as Nightwing opposed to the other identities. I don't think it really matters, even casual fans of these characters will usually learn about the Nightwing identity at some point.


It depends on what that was. Since the story and expected audience reactions are on the opposite spectrum. 

Did you like Damian in Batman and Son? Were you rooting for him?

Son of Batman Damian is an arsey kid who is better than you, richer than you, is rude to Batman and is shocked that there's only one servant seeking revenge fir the death of his super villain granddad which he achieves. Easily

UTRH Jason is the street kid who became Batman's sidekick, tortured and killed by the Joker who comes back and is broken to find that Batman refuses to avenge him.

See the Difference? There is no way in hell those two are supposed to do the same unless you're talking about public awareness. Both movies introduced them to General public.
But expected audience reaction is different

One character is supposed to elicit sympathy the other you are supposed to love to hate. Damian they are trying to do what the comics did. A character that grows and develops as things progress. Like fungus.

I do agree that the recent movies aren't as impactful or well made as UTRH. In fact only about 4 DC animated movies are impactful in anyway I can see today

----------


## Badou

> I don't think its too late though, its never been a better time for heroes as far as pop culture is concerned. Like I mentioned in previous posts, I think the age of broody lonely heroes is kinda losing its appeal in the public eye and the idea of 'hero groups' or even somewhat duos, seems to be popular and successful when executed right. ie; Avengers, GOTG, the recent Spiderman film, perhaps even the JL film etc. And if we hypothetically can assume this, then this may actually be the best time to begin building upon the various characters within Batmans universe, starting with Dick and maybe Barbara too, hell even the appearance of the Robin in Lego Batman, or the Robin suit in BVS may have helped to open the door for more casual movie goers to accept that no, Batman despite what tons have films have told the public, does not work alone. I think perhaps even the idea that the perception around Batman may change in the publics eye, was what was holding back the representation of the batfam, and yes I'm aware how ridiculous that it. :P





> But at least UTRH is really kind of exception thats apparently hard to replicate, Son of Batman was obviously supposed to do something similar for Damian, and I don't have the feeling that the impact of that movie was as big as the one UTRH had.
> 
> And about Dick as Nightwing opposed to the other identities. I don't think it really matters, even casual fans of these characters will usually learn about the Nightwing identity at some point.


What UTRH and Arkham Knight also did was focus on Jason's origin and the origin of Red Hood. Doing that made digesting Jason's character and understanding his story very easy. He's the Robin that the Joker killed then came back as Red Hood to seek vengeance against villains and challenge Batman. A very easy story to understand and a big reason I think why so many jumped on his character so quickly despite not having many other media appearances. Even the name Red Hood is simple and easy to understand visually. 

There hasn't really been a story like that for Nightwing. Nightwing is very clunky, especially compared to Dick's Robin origin. He basically has two origins. The Judas Contract one, which is a classic story but nearly impossible to adapt, and the common origin of Dick and Bruce having a falling out and Dick leaving/getting fired, which I'm not a fan of. So we are in a situation where it becomes very difficult to show the transition from Robin to Nightwing to the public where they understand the transition. 

No other media adaptation has even shown how/why Dick became Nightwing. He usually just randomly shows up as Nightwing without much or any context. I remember some people not really understanding who Nightwing was as a character when he randomly showed up in Arkham Knight or didn't quite understand at first who Nightwing was in the second season of Young Justice. Even in the Judas Contract animated movie he was already Nightwing in that well before the movie happened. It is difficult to market a character when their origin isn't very clear. Also the name 'Nightwing' doesn't really lend itself to understanding who this hero is either. I've had people ask me what a Nightwing is supposed to be when I've talked about the character, and trying to explain and adapt the Kryptonian origin (which is the part of the identity I like) of the Nightwing name is very difficult to as well without even more set up.

----------


## Frontier

I'm not sure if it was mentioned here but I think Loren Lester brought up in a recent interview that there were plans or talks around the time of _The New Batman Adventures_ about adapting a specific story showing Dick's transition from Robin to Nightwing.

----------


## Hizashi

> [jjmk-jjmk]
> I love how some artists have embraced the ankle stripes but still haven't let go of the finger stripes. Bless em.


This should be his costume, a fusion of the two.

----------


## Hizashi

> What UTRH and Arkham Knight also did was focus on Jason's origin and the origin of Red Hood. Doing that made digesting Jason's character and understanding his story very easy. He's the Robin that the Joker killed then came back as Red Hood to seek vengeance against villains and challenge Batman. A very easy story to understand and a big reason I think why so many jumped on his character so quickly despite not having many other media appearances. Even the name Red Hood is simple and easy to understand visually. 
> 
> There hasn't really been a story like that for Nightwing. Nightwing is very clunky, especially compared to Dick's Robin origin. He basically has two origins. The Judas Contract one, which is a classic story but nearly impossible to adapt, and the common origin of Dick and Bruce having a falling out and Dick leaving/getting fired, which I'm not a fan of. So we are in a situation where it becomes very difficult to show the transition from Robin to Nightwing to the public where they understand the transition. 
> 
> No other media adaptation has even shown how/why Dick became Nightwing. He usually just randomly shows up as Nightwing without much or any context. I remember some people not really understanding who Nightwing was as a character when he randomly showed up in Arkham Knight or didn't quite understand at first who Nightwing was in the second season of Young Justice. Even in the Judas Contract animated movie he was already Nightwing in that well before the movie happened. It is difficult to market a character when their origin isn't very clear. Also the name 'Nightwing' doesn't really lend itself to understanding who this hero is either. I've had people ask me what a Nightwing is supposed to be when I've talked about the character, and trying to explain and adapt the Kryptonian origin (which is the part of the identity I like) of the Nightwing name is very difficult to as well without even more set up.


Why not lean into the Kryptonian origin? Have Dick go on a journey with Clark (or something) and reveal himself to the superhero community as Nightwing?

----------


## Badou

> Why not lean into the Kryptonian origin? Have Dick go on a journey with Clark (or something) and reveal himself to the superhero community as Nightwing?


That is probably difficult to do outside of comics. I mean if the Nightwing live action movie happens I imagine that Dick will create the Nightwing identity before ever meeting Clark. There have been subtle hints in the New 52/Rebirth that I think they want to move away from the Kryptonian origin and try and connect the Nightwing name to meaning something more bird-like, such as the Owls.

----------


## Tony Stark

> [jjmk-jjmk]
> I love how some artists have embraced the ankle stripes but still haven't let go of the finger stripes. Bless em.


That's epic. I love it.

----------


## Aahz

> Did you like Damian in Batman and Son? Were you rooting for him?


The movie makes you imo more root for Damian getting is ass kicked so that he can learn some humility.




> One character is supposed to elicit sympathy the other you are supposed to love to hate. Damian they are trying to do what the comics did. A character that grows and develops as things progress. Like fungus.


And the problem is that Damian doesn't grow in Son of Batman.

----------


## jbmasta

Comic costume logic I know, but how do the escrima sticks stay on the back of the Nightwing costume when not being held or used in combat?

----------


## nightbird

> Comic costume logic I know, but how do the escrima sticks stay on the back of the Nightwing costume when not being held or used in combat?


magnets? =)

----------


## Godlike13

Sticky tape, obviously.

----------


## nightbird

DKN Exclusive Interview: Bernard Chang – Artist On ‘Batman Beyond’ And ‘Nightwing’




> DKN: That’s so cool. I guess that you can’t talk about Batman without talking about his cast of supporting characters. I’m really excited to see your take on Dick Grayson. Nightwing is one of the greatest characters in the Batman mythos. Dick’s been around almost as long as Batman and Superman have. Are you a Nightwing fan too?
> 
> BC: Nightwing is fire! He’s been one of DC Comics’ greatest heroes. Sam Humphries (Nightwing writer) has crafted a really intense and deep story, filled with action and intrigue. We’re introducing a new main villain for Dick, someone that’s haunted him for years. so I’m really excited and hyped for our modern iteration of Nightwing. I was a fan of Dick back to his days with the New Teen Titans, and one of my favorite stories was the X-Men/Teen Titans crossover that Walter Simonson drew. I was really taken by his version of Dick and hope I can capture some of that essence.


http://darkknightnews.com/2017/11/17...and-nightwing/

----------


## Godlike13

Not trying to be negative, but I hope there is a decent in story reason why we never saw this villain who has haunted him for years. Beyond him not existing till now. Strike at least had Robin Year One to build his history, and even then it’s not like I cared much for Strike.

----------


## TheCape

So, another villain connected with Dick's past is coming?.

----------


## dietrich

> And the problem is that Damian doesn't grow in Son of Batman.


In the comics did he grow in Batman and Son? 
IN the AU was he still the same in Judas Contract as he was in Son of Batman? With those clues I;m sure you can figure it out.

----------


## dietrich

> The movie makes you imo more root for Damian getting is ass kicked so that he can learn some humility.


 EXACTLY. Thanks for making my point.


Anyway back to Dick I don't mind a new villain if it's done well. The blanks can be filled in as the tale progresses I am however wary that this guy seems stuck in the nostalgia

----------


## Barbatos666

> Not trying to be negative, but I hope there is a decent in story reason why we never saw this villain who has haunted him for years. Beyond him not existing till now. Strike at least had Robin Year One to build his history, and even then its not like I cared much for Strike.


Wow you really dont care about him lol. His name is Shrike not strike.

----------


## Godlike13

Shrike, Strike all I wanted was for Deathstroke to kill him.

----------


## Alycat

> So, another villain connected with Dick's past is coming?.


Superheros should stop having friends or family that can become supervillains later on.

----------


## Pohzee

I wonder if Humphries will invent an entirely new character, or if he will pull from Dick’s Hudson supporting cast. Or maybe, in the vein of evil secret organizations, they could’ve pulled MAZE from the cobwebs.

----------


## Marilee

> I wonder if Humphries will invent an entirely new character, or if he will pull from Dick’s Hudson supporting cast. Or maybe, in the vein of evil secret organizations, they could’ve pulled MAZE from the cobwebs.


Well, if they're going back to the Hudson days, they can always bring back Scar...  (let's see who actually remembers who that is  :Stick Out Tongue:   :Wink:  )

----------


## Pohzee

> Well, if they're going back to the Hudson days, they can always bring back Scar...  (let's see who actually remembers who that is   )


Ha! I sure didn’t! That actually lines up pretty well with the solicit, so you might be onto something! 

It describes the killer as “—a murderer he never set eyes on, but whose unmistakable signature has arrived in his new city!” This lines up pretty well with Scar’s M.O. because he disfigures his victims. And technically- though it is a stretch- Dick never saw Scar after his accident, only in disguise. And the Scar’s story took place in Gotham City. The solicit describes a “case from his past in Gotham City,” while Dick was still at Hudson. So this story seems to fit the solicit rather well!

----------


## nightbird

> Ha! I sure didn’t! That actually lines up pretty well with the solicit, so you might be onto something! 
> 
> It describes the killer as “—a murderer he never set eyes on, but whose unmistakable signature has arrived in his new city!” This lines up pretty well with Scar’s M.O. because he disfigures his victims. And technically- though it is a stretch- Dick never saw Scar after his accident, only in disguise. And the Scar’s story took place in Gotham City. The solicit describes a “case from his past in Gotham City,” while Dick was still at Hudson. So this story seems to fit the solicit rather well!


New villian’s nickname is “The Judge” though

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> New villian’s nickname is “The Judge” though


Maybe the old coot from Robin Year One survived and he's pissed!

----------


## Rac7d*

We are never gonna make it to a nightwing film are we?

----------


## Badou

I never thought the Nightwing move was going to get made regardless, but now that they are probably going to recast Affleck and replace him with someone younger I don't know what they will do with Dick's character now. A younger Batman does kind of make Nightwing somewhat redundant. Before I thought they would cast someone in their late 20s or early 30s but that only fit in with an older Batman and is probably out the window now. 

I mean if they cast a Jake Gyllenhaal as Bruce, like some of the rumors suggest, I have a hard time picturing him as a Batman who has already gone through 2 Robins each who are probably adults now. He doesn't really fit the look, since he has such a young face, as someone that went through all this Batman is supposed to have gone through.

----------


## oasis1313

> I never thought the Nightwing move was going to get made regardless, but now that they are probably going to recast Affleck and replace him with someone younger I don't know what they will do with Dick's character now. A younger Batman does kind of make Nightwing somewhat redundant. Before I thought they would cast someone in their late 20s or early 30s but that only fit in with an older Batman and is probably out the window now. 
> 
> I mean if they cast a Jake Gyllenhaal as Bruce, like some of the rumors suggest, I have a hard time picturing him as a Batman who has already gone through 2 Robins each who are probably adults now. He doesn't really fit the look, since he has such a young face, as someone that went through all this Batman is supposed to have gone through.


Brokebat Mountain.

----------


## yohyoi

The DCEU is dead. Freaking DEADPOOL makes more than the Justice League. I still want a Nightwing movie with Chris Mckay directing, but WB got its' head up its' own ass. If they are going to make more movies, they should be able to compete with Marvel. I'll rather no Nightwing movie than 3 mediocre ones.

Batman recasting is so stupid. You are gonna expect people to just forget Affleck. It will be a joke for years. This isn't a comic book where you can retcon or change artists. Every kid will be asking where is Batman and who is the new guy. People will compare Jake and Ben every time. The fan base would be more divided. The critics will be confused and say something like "WB in its' latest try to catch up with Marvel decided to change the DCEU reality itself; but only made everything more confusing in an already bloated unexplained world". God help the DCEU! It needs a miracle.

----------


## nightbird

> The DCEU is dead. Freaking DEADPOOL makes more than the Justice League. I still want a Nightwing movie with Chris Mckay directing, but WB got its' head up its' own ass. If they are going to make more movies, they should be able to compete with Marvel. I'll rather no Nightwing movie than 3 mediocre ones.
> 
> Batman recasting is so stupid. You are gonna expect people to just forget Affleck. It will be a joke for years. This isn't a comic book where you can retcon or change artists. Every kid will be asking where is Batman and who is the new guy. People will compare Jake and Ben every time. The fan base would be more divided. The critics will be confused and say something like "WB in its' latest try to catch up with Marvel decided to change the DCEU reality itself; but only made everything more confusing in an already bloated unexplained world". God help the DCEU! It needs a miracle.


DCEU is not dead yet. They have Aquaman after that and I’m pretty sure WB still want WW2 with Gadot and Jenkins. But, after Flashpoint I believe a lot of things and plans will be changed. 

I don’t see why it’s a problem to re-cast Ben. I love him as Bats because he looks the part, but Batman is bigger than any actor. Better to replace Ben before his solo movies than in the middle. 
Also, Jake Gyllenhaal is 36 years old, yes almost a decade younger than Affleck, but they can simply retcon some stuff in universe  with Flashpoint and make Nightwing in his early 20’s. That’s even better if you ask me,  because I don’t wanna Dick to take over Batman mantle (at least so early) or be the same age as Wonder Woman and Superman.

----------


## nightbird

222333A5-6AF2-4738-88C1-0B446CF7F74E.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbp8askg8Nk/

4630AF2D-AEC9-49D8-AC6E-4CD0B2B3000A.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbq8SZghYCh/

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 57993
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbp8askg8Nk/
> 
> Attachment 57994
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbq8SZghYCh/


He is the most beautiful that face shot is nice.

----------


## CPSparkles

> We are never gonna make it to a nightwing film are we?


I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko2_400.jpg
Transition

----------


## byrd156

> I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.


I could see DC pulling a X-Men type movie with the Bat characters. Not necessarily say where they are in the timeline or connect them to the larger universe.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, I mean we already know DC movies don't have to be part of the DCEU, or at least that's what we've been hearing is the new policy from WB. I don't think a recasted Batman or the "end of the DCEU" would affect it anyways, since McKay could just make it a standalone movie. And then there's Flashpoint, which could be used the same way it was for the comics: a reboot that de-ages several heroes, which could include Batman, and it'd also make room for Nightwing to randomly be relevant to Batman (and even Superman, if they want to keep the name origin).

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah, I mean we already know DC movies don't have to be part of the DCEU, or at least that's what we've been hearing is the new policy from WB. I don't think a recasted Batman or the "end of the DCEU" would affect it anyways, since McKay could just make it a standalone movie. And then there's Flashpoint, which could be used the same way it was for the comics: a reboot that de-ages several heroes, which could include Batman, and it'd also make room for Nightwing to randomly be relevant to Batman (and even Superman, if they want to keep the name origin).


I’m not quite sure DCEU is ready to embrace “Elseworld” side of their universe without making it weird to audience. And it’s hard to tell a complete Nightwing story without Batman/Gotham flashbacks, since they didn’t show us him as Robin. That’s why I’m curious how they're going to do it in Titans show.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, if they're going back to the Hudson days, they can always bring back Scar...  (let's see who actually remembers who that is   )


Lori Elton !!!!!!!  Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkk  !!!!!!

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I’m not quite sure DCEU is ready to embrace “Elseworld” side of their universe without making it weird to audience. And it’s hard to tell a complete Nightwing story without Batman/Gotham flashbacks, since they didn’t show us him as Robin. That’s why I’m curious how they're going to do it in Titans show.


I mean... Superman Returns and Batman Begins were completely unrelated. If audiences understood it back then, surely they can now? Especially when we've had so many Batmen and Spider-Men in the past few years and different versions of Superman and The Flash on TV and in movies. 

And I don't see how doing that would mean we wouldn't get Robin flashbacks? All you need to do is have Batman around for it. Even if it's a completely different Batman, that shouldn't be a big deal since the movie should be about Dick as Nightwing. 

Titans will be interesting... I hope they just go the same route as the cartoon, but have Dick transition to Nightwing much quicker.

----------


## nightbird

> I mean... Superman Returns and Batman Begins were completely unrelated. If audiences understood it back then, surely they can now? Especially when we've had so many Batmen and Spider-Men in the past few years and different versions of Superman and The Flash on TV and in movies. 
> 
> And I don't see how doing that would mean we wouldn't get Robin flashbacks? All you need to do is have Batman around for it. Even if it's a completely different Batman, that shouldn't be a big deal since the movie should be about Dick as Nightwing. 
> 
> Titans will be interesting... I hope they just go the same route as the cartoon, but have Dick transition to Nightwing much quicker.


Because at that time there was no shared universe between them. In Batman’s world Superman couldn’t exist and vice versa. Making two people play the  same role on the big screen (at the same time) is confusing to the majority of audience that sometimes can’t even tell what the difference between Marvel and DC characters. It’s easy to market and explain “reboot” or “TV Show” concept. But when  you have “regular world”/“Elseworld”, “in continuity”/“out of continuity”, “difference cast of actors”, “different appearances and origins”... general audience is not stupid, but, imo, until DCEU is not a solid brand there is no point in complicating it with “Elseworld”. 

No, I meant doing Nightwing story inside DCEU universe would be hard without Batman, which means it can’t be absolutely stand-alone movie. I can see them doing, let’s say, something like Justice League Dark or even Deathstroke without addressing what happened in universe, but Nightwing movie without showing us his origin, why he is not Robin anymore, why Bruce and Alfred act like he doesn’t exist, without at least his reaction to what happened between Bats and Supes, alien invasion and JL creation, since supposedly his surrogate father/close friend/mentor is involved in all of these...

I don’t think WB wants “Elseworld” Nightwing movie. Especially when he is not a proven and successful IP yet. 

Maybe they should make Nightwing movie like WW a prequel to MoS/BvS/JL...

----------


## oasis1313

I just don't see a Nightwing movie happening.  After Wonder Woman being such a big hit, I think the push will be toward bring forward a second female lead movie--probably Batgirl.

----------


## Barbatos666

Nightwing has a director while Batgirl has Whedon who is controversial. I'd place my bets on Nightwing over Batgirl, the only thing imo that is delaying the Nightwing film is Batman. Batgirl could've worked fine before a Batman film but Nightwing needs a Batman film to establish stuff from backstory to tone and setting.

----------


## Badou

Batgirl was listed as one of the moves slated to go into production soon. Nightwing wasn't listed with those movies I believe. Then at SDCC they said that Nightwing would appear in the Batgirl movie as Robin I believe.

----------


## nightbird

> Batgirl was listed as one of the moves slated to go into production soon. Nightwing wasn't listed with those movies I believe. Then at SDCC they said that Nightwing would appear in the Batgirl movie as Robin I believe.


Wasn’t it just a rumor? Because Whedon didn’t even start working on script at that time and was busy with JL? And Chris McKay himself asked for more time, if we believe his words.

----------


## Badou

> Wasn’t it just a rumor? Because Whedon didn’t even start working on script at that time and was busy with JL? And Chris McKay himself asked for more time, if we believe his words.


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...-dick-greyson/

I dunno if it is or not, but I just remember the stories coming out of SDCC about it.

----------


## WonderNight

rumor is wedon is out because of JL I think. but what would you guys what out of the nightwing. I'd love a bond meets the raid movie. the street hero movie batman will have on lock.

----------


## nightbird

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...-dick-greyson/
> 
> I dunno if it is or not, but I just remember the stories coming out of SDCC about it.


Bleedingcool almost the only news outlet that reported it, so who knows... 

I would love to have Robin in Batgirl’s movie, but Whedon honestly is bad at writing characters like Dick.

----------


## nightbird

> rumor is wedon is out because of JL I think. but what would you guys what out of the nightwing. I'd love a bond meets the raid movie. the street hero movie batman will have on lock.


“The Raid” type of movie probably now reserved for Deathstroke, because of rumored director, so I want a dark mystery, detective story with Raptor as villain. I will be disappointed if they turn Nightwing into a full-blown superhero comedy.

----------


## WonderNight

> “The Raid” type of movie probably now reserved for Deathstroke, because of rumored director, so I want a dark mystery, detective story with Raptor as villain. I will be disappointed if they turn Nightwing into a full-blown superhero comedy.


but the the batman is supposed to be a noir detective story.

----------


## yohyoi

I think Marvel style movies would work well with Nightwing. There is nothing wrong with an action comedy. I enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok a lot. It could be a breath of fresh air away from the grim dark DCEU movies.

----------


## Aahz

> The Raid type of movie probably now reserved for Deathstroke, because of rumored director, so I want a dark mystery, detective story with Raptor as villain. I will be disappointed if they turn Nightwing into a full-blown superhero comedy.


With the director of the Batman Lego Movie, it will probably not be a completely dark and serious movie.

I would personally prefer something with similar tone as the Netflix Dare Devil series.

----------


## nightbird

> With the director of the Batman Lego Movie, it will probably not be a completely dark and serious movie.
> 
> I would personally prefer something with similar tone as the Netflix Dare Devil series.


Well it doesn’t need to be. Dick should tell terrible jokes and make puns in his movie, but with Bill Dubuque as writer I hope to see a good balance between some fun jokes and serious character drama.

----------


## nightbird

> but the the batman is supposed to be a noir detective story.


Is it? ... well, almost all Batfamily members detectives, so one way or another they should be involved in solving crimes. I guess as long as they give them different tone and flavor it will be okay. 




> I think Marvel style movies would work well with Nightwing. There is nothing wrong with an action comedy. I enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok a lot. It could be a breath of fresh air away from the grim dark DCEU movies.


Yeah, no thank you  :Stick Out Tongue:  As a person who disliked Thor:Ragnarok and the fact that jokes were the main character in movie, not Thor himself, I hope to see a movie with better storytelling and character study. I can see Shazam being superhero comedy, but I don’t think Nightwing is a right guy for that type of movies. Grayson? Yes, why not. Something alongside first Kingsman could work. For Nightwing movie I just simply want to see something more... serious. I don’t think I wanna “a comic relief” Nightwing in DCEU.

----------


## Godlike13

I think they have the opportunity with Dick to go with a lighter tone, and they should capitalize on that as dark and serious is not doing their cinematic universe any favors.

----------


## nightbird

DCEU being “dark and serious” is not a problem, weak and messy storytelling is a problem. Wonder Woman was overall a serious movie with occasional funny moments and jokes. DC/WB should fix their scripts, editing and cutting problems.

----------


## Godlike13

DCU movies overall general perception is not very good, so anything to separate itself from that would advantageous IMO. A lighter tone would accomplish that.

----------


## nightbird

> DCU movies overall general perception is not very good, so anything to separate itself from that would advantageous IMO. A lighter tone would accomplish that.


*coughJLcough*

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bleedingcool almost the only news outlet that reported it, so who knows... 
> 
> I would love to have Robin in Batgirl’s movie, but Whedon honestly is bad at writing characters like Dick.


H e just need that mainstream exposure that's all bad or good it will push the brand and DC will pay attention to him I am desperate and the superhero film light seems to be fading

----------


## Godlike13

JL didn’t have a lighter tone, it had just weird disingenuous moments randomly thrown in here and there.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Ew, a Marvel-style movie would be trash. As far as elevating Nightwing's profile to the public, sure, it'd probably work better to popularize the character, but as a fan, I'd actively hate that. 

Justice League's serious style with random one-liners is way better, simply because it feels like I'm watching something with substance and not some random generic superhero do stuff. I don't want grim, I want gritty. I don't need dark, just serious. I want to see blood, but I don't need to see 10 people die. I want an emotional ride, and some jokes won't get in the way of that. I mean, we literally have #1-4 and 7-8 of Nightwing, which is a pretty serious story but with a lot of levity brough by both Dick and Raptor. On the other hand, JL pretty much bombed, so any movie following that kinda style probably will, too, so idk.

A Bond movie would work well for Dick, I think, depending on how much of Bludhaven they plan to have in it. If it's mostly based on Better than Batman and Rise of Raptor, then it'd work pretty well.

----------


## nightbird

> JL didn’t have a lighter tone, it had just weird disingenuous moments randomly thrown in here and there.


JL aimed for that “lighter tone” and tried to distinguish itself from MoS/BvS. Hence Whedon’s involvement and infamous unnecessary reshoots to add more jokes. Same happened with Suicide Squad, ironically I think SS would win more if they didn’t try to be “jokey and fun”, but embraced dark characters, gritty tone and even showed some blood and gore (and new villain...lol).
I hope DC stops chasing “jokes, fun and light” just to please some critics and audience without fixing their actual and real problems.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i628/1711/8e/040d344c4211.jpg[/IMG]

p.s. new cover? anyone knows the artist?

----------


## Badou

Cover artist is Phil Jimenez. 

Looks like the shitty New 52 Robin costume is going to make its first appearance in Humphries run based of that R in the corner!

----------


## prettysunshine9

That's Phil Jimenez!  He is by far my fave artist at DC, and his Dick Grayson is also one of my faves.  Especially in the JLA/Titans crossover from like 2000 or something?  _Love it._

----------


## Frontier

> Cover artist is Phil Jimenez. 
> 
> *Looks like the shitty New 52 Robin costume is going to make its first appearance in Humphries run based of that R in the corner!*


Poor Jimenez  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i628/1711/8e/040d344c4211.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> p.s. new cover? anyone knows the artist?


It kicks ass but that terrible Robin R kills me. What is so wrong with the classic design? I'll take the garbage Robin costume if we at least have the classic R.

----------


## byrd156

A DC universe where the classic superhero designs were never used hurts my soul.

----------


## Aioros22

Someone at Office really likes that suit  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> Poor Jimenez .


Klaus Janson is supposed to do the art for #37 I think, which is also supposed to be a flashback issue just like Phil Jimenez's issue. 

I guess they really want to see how awful the New 52 Robin costume looks like drawn by a wide variety of artists! Spreading the love around, haha.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Maybe we'll be lucky enough to see a redesigned suit here. I mean, there's nothing saying Dick has never worn a different Robin suit in this continuity, we've just never seen it before. We've already had Teen Titans and now Hudson University slotted into his history, a different design to go with the latter wouldn't be weird, imo. Granted, I'm not sure that's any editor's focus right now, so it almost certainly won't happen, but I'm still gonna hope for it.

----------


## dietrich

Dick Grayson Batman #35



Dick Grayson batman #34

----------


## WonderNight

Titans #20. The titan gets sentence to time out by the JL. lol poor dick and wally, I see why WB is scared to invest in them.

----------


## nightbird

> Maybe we'll be lucky enough to see a redesigned suit here. I mean, there's nothing saying Dick has never worn a different Robin suit in this continuity, we've just never seen it before. We've already had Teen Titans and now Hudson University slotted into his history, a different design to go with the latter wouldn't be weird, imo. Granted, I'm not sure that's any editor's focus right now, so it almost certainly won't happen, but I'm still gonna hope for it.


At least they should give him utility belt and remove that ugly “stitches”.

----------


## nightbird

> Titans #20. The titan gets sentence to time out by the JL. lol poor dick and wally, I see why WB is scared to invest in them.


why? 

10char.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Titans #20. The titan gets sentence to time out by the JL. lol poor dick and wally, I see why WB is scared to invest in them.


The JL are such bullies

----------


## Godlike13

No the Titans just suck.

----------


## nightbird

A2E9844C-4F1B-4FA1-8F0D-DCD5552D5598.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bbw9H9BgRSG/

----------


## Alycat

I legit can't work up any enthusiasm for the upcoming arc. It combines almost all the stuff I don't care for in one place.

----------


## byrd156

> No the Titans just suck.


Naaaaaaaaaaaaaah

----------


## byrd156

*'Nightwing' to Have Open Casting Call* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/21/n...l-chris-mckay/

----------


## Pohzee

> *'Nightwing' to Have Open Casting Call* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/21/n...l-chris-mckay/


I love how passionate he is both about the movie and the character, but that makes it all the more sad that it will never get made.

----------


## Godlike13

> Naaaaaaaaaaaaaah


Love them or hate them, that team is an embarrassment. They have done nothing. They're a bad superhero team. They are completely ineffectual, and have accomplished nothing. The JL giving them a time out, firmly solidifying the Titans as a bottom tier amateur team, is just the cherry on top to this garbage of a run.

----------


## Pohzee

Humphries did a Q&A on Twitter. here are some takeaways.

https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...84595976749056
He cites more inspiration from early Robin stories than Dixon.


https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...86922271997952
Dick will be an entrepreneur in Humphries’s run.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No the Titans just suck.


How do they suck?

----------


## TheCape

> How do they suck?


The current volume isn't that great and hasn't stablished a solid team dynamic.

----------


## Godlike13

> How do they suck?


They have been together for over a year now and have accomplished nothing. They're a superhero team with no actual purpose, they don't really do anything, and instead just struggle with their own internal messes. And poorly at that. Running into traps and getting their asses handed to them constantly. Its embarrassing. Now the JL is coming to put them on hiatus, like they are toddlers being given a time out. Which they can do because the Titans are clearly this minor league team. So ya, they suck. This runs sucks. Its done nothing but reaffirm all the negative stigmas with the Titans, and firmly reestablish the Titans as a pointless minor league team.

----------


## nightbird

> They have been together for over a year now and have accomplished nothing. They're a superhero team with no actual purpose, they don't really do anything, and instead just struggle with their own internal messes. And poorly at that. Running into traps and getting their asses handed to them constantly. Its embarrassing. Now the JL is coming to put them on hiatus, like they are toddlers being given a time out. Which they can do because the Titans are clearly this minor league team. So ya, they suck. This runs sucks. Its done nothing but reaffirm all the negative stigmas with the Titans, and firmly reestablish the Titans as a pointless minor league team.


Can we really blame characters and team for how DC and writers poorly treat them?

----------


## Hizashi

> I love how passionate he is both about the movie and the character, but that makes it all the more sad that it will never get made.


lalalala, I can't hear you, lalalala

----------


## Hizashi

> Can we really blame characters and team for how DC and writers poorly treat them?


I love the lineup - strongly dislike the execution.

----------


## Godlike13

> Can we really blame characters and team for how DC and writers poorly treat them?


Not blaming the characters, but nevertheless the current Titans as a superhero team suck.

----------


## Barbatos666

New job? UGH and this is why I dont care about Bludhaven. Still Humphries is hyping up his villain, I hope he is a big deal, doubt it but lets see.

----------


## jbmasta

> They have been together for over a year now and have accomplished nothing. They're a superhero team with no actual purpose, they don't really do anything, and instead just struggle with their own internal messes. And poorly at that. Running into traps and getting their asses handed to them constantly. Its embarrassing. Now the JL is coming to put them on hiatus, like they are toddlers being given a time out. Which they can do because the Titans are clearly this minor league team. So ya, they suck. This runs sucks. Its done nothing but reaffirm all the negative stigmas with the Titans, and firmly reestablish the Titans as a pointless minor league team.


From their Rebirth issue you'd think they'd be investigating the missing memories and everything. Instead it's been regurgitating old Teen Titans plot beats and having no direction. With pre-Flashpoint/New 52 Wally West being the face of the Rebirth initiative you'd think he'd have an important role. Instead he's been left with his old friends to replay their not so greatest hits.

----------


## nightbird

> I love the lineup - strongly dislike the execution.


I like them too, that’s why it’s so sad to see what Abnett is doing with them.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Not blaming the characters, but nevertheless the current Titans as a superhero team suck.


So How do you fix it? You can't just put them right back where they were pre 52 at this point, you're going to have to do something to reconnect the old team. Wonder if they're going to let Bendis take a crack at this?

----------


## jbmasta

> So How do you fix it? You can't just put them right back where they were pre 52 at this point, you're going to have to do something to reconnect the old team. Wonder if they're going to let Bendis take a crack at this?


It's not like it could get any worse *knock on wood*.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s46.***********/i111/1711/13/4e914c80ac5f.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/sakua312/status/...936322562?s=17

----------


## Godlike13

> So How do you fix it? You can't just put them right back where they were pre 52 at this point, you're going to have to do something to reconnect the old team. Wonder if they're going to let Bendis take a crack at this?


I’ll take Bendis. He doesn’t do traditional so he could be good for the Titans. Regardless the first step IMO is getting a new creative team on that book, one that gets the Titans shouldn’t be just a wannabe JL.

----------


## oasis1313

I've decided to drop Titans from my pull list.  I've been buying it just to support Nightwing, but it gets more dreadful every issue.  I wish DC would pull Dick out of there and put him on another team.

----------


## Hizashi

> I’ll take Bendis. He doesn’t do traditional so he could be good for the Titans. Regardless the first step IMO is getting a new creative team on that book, one that gets the Titans shouldn’t be just a wannabe JL.


Bendis might have been lackluster in these last few years at Marvel, but he's capable of great work, I would read his Titans book. Brett Booth has to go, his art doesn't work for the book at all.

----------


## Hizashi

> I've decided to drop Titans from my pull list.  I've been buying it just to support Nightwing, but it gets more dreadful every issue.  I wish DC would pull Dick out of there and put him on another team.


What team would you put him on?

----------


## Rac7d*

> They have been together for over a year now and have accomplished nothing. They're a superhero team with no actual purpose, they don't really do anything, and instead just struggle with their own internal messes. And poorly at that. Running into traps and getting their asses handed to them constantly. Its embarrassing. Now the JL is coming to put them on hiatus, like they are toddlers being given a time out. Which they can do because the Titans are clearly this minor league team. So ya, they suck. This runs sucks. Its done nothing but reaffirm all the negative stigmas with the Titans, and firmly reestablish the Titans as a pointless minor league team.


What are they suppose to accomplish? What do the outlaws accomplish, the teen titans, even when the JL been out of comish

Batman gets his hands on all world crisis is and only deals out missions to teams he controls, Look at superior and justice league of American aka the B team. The titans have not had a chance yet. Not like Tim's titans who never did anything and when the World did need them they were useless. We haven't had any big crossover(thank god) they haven't had a chance to show their stuff where batman can't stop and control everything.

----------


## Ascended

> I've decided to drop Titans from my pull list.  I've been buying it just to support Nightwing, but it gets more dreadful every issue.  I wish DC would pull Dick out of there and put him on another team.


I think DC's been stuck in a rut with the Titans for ages.

They keep trying to catch lightning in a bottle by re-hashing the Wolfman era......and it never works. I forget how many Titan reunions we've seen since Devin Grayson got the band back together, but so far none of it has really worked or been able to last long term.

I'd love to see someone come in with a new purpose and focus for the team, because nostalgia and "family" obviously aren't doing the job. Or let them just move on with their lives and do different stuff, joining different teams.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Bendis might have been lackluster in these last few years at Marvel, but he's capable of great work, I would read his Titans book. Brett Booth has to go, his art doesn't work for the book at all.


I wouldn't mind Bendis on Titans, as long as he's not out to write the mini-JL, he can put out some great work, I think. Also, Booth's gone, #16 was his last issue. #17 was Minkyu Jung (Nightwing #15, the Titans Annual) and Paul Pelletier (Justice League #51, Nightwing #29) is the new artist from #18 onwards.

----------


## Pohzee

Surprised that nobody is talking about the pictures that Humphries posted on Twitter today, but I guess we can complain about the Titans some more.


https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...21181746548736
Here is our first look at Humphries’s new supporting character Guppy. He seems just like the run-offs to me. Meh.


https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...21708614156288
THIS caught my eye though because that is certainly NOT the New 52 suit. Hallelujah

----------


## TheCape

Still not super interested on Humphries run, but if they gave us a better Robin costume, he would win some brownie points.

----------


## dietrich

> Surprised that nobody is talking about the pictures that Humphries posted on Twitter today, but I guess we can complain about the Titans some more.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...21181746548736
> Here is our first look at Humphries’s new supporting character Guppy. He seems just like the run-offs to me. Meh.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...21708614156288
> THIS caught my eye though because that is certainly NOT the New 52 suit. Hallelujah


I hope we still get the Runs Offs and elements of Seeley's Blud in this run.
Looking forward to RobinDick and Batman.

----------


## zomg

> So How do you fix it? You can't just put them right back where they were pre 52 at this point, you're going to have to do something to reconnect the old team. Wonder if they're going to let Bendis take a crack at this?


Bring the original Teen Titans from the past into the present and relaunch the book as Teen Titans Blue.  :Stick Out Tongue:  /jk




> I think DC's been stuck in a rut with the Titans for ages.
> 
> I'd love to see someone come in with a new purpose and focus for the team, because nostalgia and "family" obviously aren't doing the job. Or let them just move on with their lives and do different stuff, joining different teams.


I think the only way to fix the Titans is by moving them all to their own Earth, which is centered around the Titans instead of the JL. But that's never going to happen.

----------


## byrd156

> Bring the original Teen Titans from the past into the present and relaunch the book as Teen Titans Blue.  /jk
> 
> I think the only way to fix the Titans is by moving them all to their own Earth, which is centered around the Titans instead of the JL. But that's never going to happen.


I wouldn't be against a Teen Titans series set in the past that details their old adventures. The more Fab Five I can get the better.

----------


## Aahz

The thing with Titans is imo, that with the Fab Five having outgrown their Sidekick roles long ago, they should be really treated as a team that almost Justice League Level (a lot of them have actually been in the JL at some point during the pre flashpoint continuity), and not as a bunch of guys that mostly hang out to eat pizza, and fight the same old villains over and over again.

In short they need imo new and bigger threads, should play bigger roles in the Events and should have crossovers with the JL.

----------


## Godlike13

IMO the Titans should be a younger, young adult, and more contemporary alternative superhero team. Hungry to make their own way as a top level super team. A team that if the JL ever tried to put on hiatus, they would smirk and tell them to go suck on an egg. 
That they are a group of 20-21 year olds is what makes them different, and they should try and take advantage of that. Rather then have them try to relive the 70's, looking like somthing out of the 90s. Give me a Young Animal Titans. That's what I want. 




> I think the only way to fix the Titans is by moving them all to their own Earth, which is centered around the Titans instead of the JL. But that's never going to happen.


Ya, that didn't work out so well for the JSA. Marooning them on an island is not how you fix them IMO. What a waste of Power Girl. I would strongly argue that the Titans need to actually be more intergrated in current DCU even and pushed to look like serious contenders.

----------


## Aahz

Another Big problems with Titans (and also Teen Titans) is that it seems that they are really only sitting around and waiting for super villains to attack them. To me it feels like Outlaws and Super Sons do actually way more crime fighting than the Titan Teams.

----------


## nightbird

> The thing with Titans is imo, that with the Fab Five having outgrown their Sidekick roles long ago, they should be really treated as a team that almost Justice League Level (a lot of them have actually been in the JL at some point during the pre flashpoint continuity), and not as a bunch of guys that mostly hang out to eat pizza, and fight the same old villains over and over again.
> 
> In short they need imo new and bigger threads, should play bigger roles in the Events and should have crossovers with the JL.


Well, when JL members still treat Titans as their subordinates, why anyone else should see them as something bigger or important.

----------


## nightbird

> During his recent episode, where he and his co-host Marc Bernardin reviewed Justice League, Smith dropped that tidbit as well as one exciting piece of information. Back when Brenton Thwaites got cast as Dick Grayson there was one major question on everyone’s minds. Will Dick still be Robin when Titans begin or will he be just starting out as Nightwing after having left his days as the Boy Wonder behind?
> 
> While this doesn’t answer that question completely, it does seem like we’ll indeed be seeing the Robin costume according to Smith. During the podcast, Smith quoted Kevorkian promising that Robin’s outfit is going to be amazing.
> 
> “There’s a guy who does effects for Flash and Supergirl, Armen Kevorkian and he is working on the Teen Titans show. He sent me a text this weekend going ‘You’re going to f—ing love the Robin outfit!’ It looks cool he said, so I’m looking forward to that Teen Titans show.”


http://titanspodcast.com/arrowverse-...-titans-robin/

So, we either getting Robin flashbacks with Dick or Jason/Tim in Titans show. I personally hope for Robin flashbacks with Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, when JL members still treat Titans as their subordinates, why anyone else should see them as something bigger or important.


Of course the titans should be treated accordingly by the JL. And the JL had often members (like the current Green Lanterns) that were less experienced than the Fab 5.

----------


## Badou

Couldn't hold my tongue any longer on the Titans topic, lol. I tried. 

I still think that the concept of Titans as adults is broken. It will never work. What made the Titans different from the JL is that they were teens and that offered a different dynamic to the adult heroes and that will always be ingrained in the Titans brand. You can't separate it from them. It made sense they would be treated as a younger generation that needed guidance and not completely ready to be the "go to" heroes because they were still teens. So it was okay that they didn't have a goal or a mission statement as a team because their goal was to learn to be heroes and experience what being on was like. That isn't the case now and hasn't been so for a long, long time. They have been adults for decades, and to keep trying to do the same things as when they were teens will always look and feel awkward. 

As adults they are just lesser versions of the JL and offer nothing that the JL can't do themselves and do better. The uniqueness they had as teens is gone. They have no clear goal or purpose other than just be a team that is together because they were together when they were teens, and have nowhere else to go because the JL characters already do what they should be doing as adults and makes them redundant. The Titans should remain a franchise focused on teen characters and the adults should move on to the JL, JSA, or some other team where they can separate themselves from the Titans franchise and what it holds them to.

----------


## Godlike13

So what if the JL are better as long as the Titans are cooler. That what the Titans should be, the younger and cooler superhero team. And that doesn't mean them just eating pizza. 
I honestly think the Titans can be viable superhero team, especially with a TV show coming. There is real opportunity there, but when it comes to comics DC is not even trying. They are so frustratingly uncreative with the Titans.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s012.***********/i320/1711/4b/f841d1548ee8.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/airair_ii/status...136006144?s=17

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #35 Cover by Bernard Chang

I'm very excited for the next Nightwing team. I'm hoping and wishing the next run to be one of the best.

----------


## nightbird

> Nightwing #35 Cover by Bernard Chang
> 
> I'm very excited for the next Nightwing team. I'm hoping and wishing the next run to be one of the best.


I believe “people” on the cover Nightwing’s new villain “The Judge”, detective Svoboda and Guppy?  I wonder if Guppy somehow  related to Orca or Tiger Shark.

----------


## The World

I remember back when the first iteration of the Outlaws was going on and there was this big furor over the fact that Dick's old team members were hanging with Jason and I never got it personally. The team is past due on them all going their separate ways, it wasn't like they took the entire Titan's team, kicked out Dick, and replace him with the Jason. Rather the team did like groups of friends often do and start to go their different routes in life over time. I thought the OG outlaws had a good thing going on personally though I'm fine with the current group.  

The teen titans are the young group of kids that have their youth and junior status working for them as an advantage. With Dick and his group the senior to at least two other generations of other heroes it's sort of silly to play them as the young and hip generation and going on pure comradery will only get you so far. The JL has the status of premier, top tier team on lock down and playing Dick's gen as their second only works to their disadvantage. It would be best to break them up and redistribute them to other teams. Starfire to play mother hen to the young Titans, maybe Roy can link back up with Jason, Dick to checkmate or some other spy agency along with doing his Nightwing stuff, Donna to Seven Soldiers of Victory, etc. You could probably get a really emotional tale about them splitting up on amicable terms imo, none of this angsty bullcrap.

----------


## The World

> Nightwing #35 Cover by Bernard Chang
> 
> I'm very excited for the next Nightwing team. I'm hoping and wishing the next run to be one of the best.



Looks good, reminicent of Mahnke.

----------


## yohyoi

> *'Nightwing' to Have Open Casting Call* - http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/21/n...l-chris-mckay/


Chris Mckay has some guts. I hope the best for him. WB needs directors like him and Patty Jenkins.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Chris Mckay has some guts. I hope the best for him. WB needs directors like him and Patty Jenkins.


My fear is that they will abandon making DC movies before then
I wish whedon did do the batgirl movie at least it had a director

----------


## yohyoi

> http://titanspodcast.com/arrowverse-...-titans-robin/
> 
> So, we either getting Robin flashbacks with Dick or Jason/Tim in Titans show. I personally hope for Robin flashbacks with Batman.


Robin needs to be done justice in live action. Dick, of course, is the best choice and first choice (although I won't mind a GOOD Damian). Dick Robin was good in TT animated and Young Justice, but we need more.

----------


## Frontier

> http://titanspodcast.com/arrowverse-...-titans-robin/
> 
> So, we either getting Robin flashbacks with Dick or Jason/Tim in Titans show. I personally hope for Robin flashbacks with Batman.


Unless he was misquoted when talking about the Nightwing suit, it definitely sounds like Dick's time as Robin will still be a thing  :Smile: .

Which also means Batman probably exists in this universe, because you can't really have Robin without Batman, even if they only allude to him like the _Teen Titans_ cartoon did.

----------


## Badou

> I remember back when the first iteration of the Outlaws was going on and there was this big furor over the fact that Dick's old team members were hanging with Jason and I never got it personally. The team is past due on them all going their separate ways, it wasn't like they took the entire Titan's team, kicked out Dick, and replace him with the Jason. Rather the team did like groups of friends often do and start to go their different routes in life over time. I thought the OG outlaws had a good thing going on personally though I'm fine with the current group.


Roy and Starfire were all that remained of the old Titans when the New 52 started. Everyone else was erased or unaccounted for. So moving all the known Titans to be Jason's friends while Dick had no friends, no connections with anyone at the time, and did not create the Titans was not a good place for the character to be.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason should have kept Roy.

----------


## nightbird

> Jason should have kept Roy.


I know you hate Roy, but nope  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I’m still really glad to see Dick getting all his friends back. Now, it’s also time to make Raven and Beast Boy adults and restore friendship between Titans and Cyborg.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason and Roy actully make more sense, and until Winicks Outsiders Dick and Roy weren't actually that close.

----------


## oasis1313

I'm beginning to think Titans and Teen Titans should be condensed into one book.  We need more Dick/Damian dynamic, and maybe it's time to give Kory another try.  They'e been broken up for--what?--twenty years now?

----------


## Aahz

> I remember back when the first iteration of the Outlaws was going on and there was this big furor over the fact that Dick's old team members were hanging with Jason and I never got it personally.


Btw. were people ever upset when Wally and Kyle, started to team up with Conner Hawk instead of with Roy?




> Jason and Roy actully make more sense, and until Winicks Outsiders Dick and Roy weren't actually that close.


I don't think that the first  Outlaw team made that much sense (it seemed more like a team of characters DC wanted to keep arround but had no idea what to do with them), but Roy had imo allways the problem that he gets really his time to shine in Titans when Dick is not around.

----------


## Frontier

> Jason and Roy actully make more sense, and until Winicks Outsiders Dick and Roy weren't actually that close.


I think they've got similar personalities and baggage, but I don't think that means Dick and Roy shouldn't be close either. 

I don't think we really saw Dick interact much with the members of the Fab Five who didn't carry over into the New Teen Titans, outside their small guest appearances.

----------


## nightbird

> Jason and Roy actully make more sense, and until Winicks Outsiders Dick and Roy weren't actually that close.


Roy and Jason together always felt like random team up to me. Also, while Dick and Roy don’t have particularly good chemistry, I like when Wally, Roy and Dick all together.  And I much more prefer Roy in Titans, than in Outlaws. He and Starfire were out of place in Outlaws, imo.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't think that the first Outlaw team made that much sense (it seemed more like a team of characters DC wanted to keep arround but had no idea what to do with them), but Roy had imo allways the problem that he gets really his time to shine in Titans when Dick is not around.


The first Outlaws was obviously just a place they put them so they could have them still around. With Jason and Roy though theres at least an angle there.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s016.***********/i335/1711/ff/3581b1593855.png[/IMG]
D&d by Marcus To

----------


## Aahz

> The first Outlaws was obviously just a place they put them so they could have them still around. With Jason and Roy though theres at least an angle there.


I still think that Kid Devil would have made (in universe) more sense, since he and Jason were actually friends and roughly the same age pre flashpoint.
And Eddy was in the pre flashpoint titans actually quite similar to the RHatO Roy (from business perspective Roy might have been a better choise).

Not sure how would have been a good replacement for Starfire.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I remember back when the first iteration of the Outlaws was going on and there was this big furor over the fact that Dick's old team members were hanging with Jason and I never got it personally. The team is past due on them all going their separate ways, it wasn't like they took the entire Titan's team, kicked out Dick, and replace him with the Jason. Rather the team did like groups of friends often do and start to go their different routes in life over time. I thought the OG outlaws had a good thing going on personally though I'm fine with the current group.


None of this makes any sense to me. They literally erased their history and neutered Dick. Why wouldn't people be upset? He lost his place in the DCU and still hasn't recovered from it. He literally only matters nowadays because his book sells well and he still appears in other media. And it's not just Dick, Titans fans care about _all_ the Titans. I care about what the New 52 did to Kory, about the fact Wally and Donna didn't exist, etc. 

Your opinion would make sense if I was reading it in 2010, when Dick and Donna were on the League, the other Titans were elsewhere, Vic was chilling at STAR Labs, etc.

----------


## oasis1313

> Chris Mckay has some guts. I hope the best for him. WB needs directors like him and Patty Jenkins.


That guy who plays Nightwing on the You Tube videos has the right look.

----------


## Ascended

> Couldn't hold my tongue any longer on the Titans topic, lol. I tried. 
> 
> I still think that the concept of Titans as adults is broken. It will never work. What made the Titans different from the JL is that they were teens and that offered a different dynamic to the adult heroes and that will always be ingrained in the Titans brand. You can't separate it from them. It made sense they would be treated as a younger generation that needed guidance and not completely ready to be the "go to" heroes because they were still teens. So it was okay that they didn't have a goal or a mission statement as a team because their goal was to learn to be heroes and experience what being on was like. That isn't the case now and hasn't been so for a long, long time. They have been adults for decades, and to keep trying to do the same things as when they were teens will always look and feel awkward. 
> 
> As adults they are just lesser versions of the JL and offer nothing that the JL can't do themselves and do better. The uniqueness they had as teens is gone. They have no clear goal or purpose other than just be a team that is together because they were together when they were teens, and have nowhere else to go because the JL characters already do what they should be doing as adults and makes them redundant. The Titans should remain a franchise focused on teen characters and the adults should move on to the JL, JSA, or some other team where they can separate themselves from the Titans franchise and what it holds them to.


You know, this post got me thinking.....

The League formed, what, about ten years in the past? I mean, current New52-Rebirth continuity is weird but a rough decade of the League has been the standard timeline for a while.

Is it weird that we expect other teams to evolve and grow beyond their original writ but not the League? If those guys were the greatest heroes on earth ten years ago.....wouldn't another decade of experience also mean they've expanded their jurisdiction to accommodate? 

Batman started looking at world-wide problems and built Batman Inc, partially to make sure that the smaller, city-sized problems didn't get ignored. What if the League did the same thing? Instead of dealing with rogue nations, terrorists, alien invasions, and hellish conquerors, they started dealing with larger-scale, higher-concept stuff like cosmic manifestations (Imperiex, for example). Who's left on earth to focus on the "small" stuff the League isn't dealing with? The Fab5, of course.

I think that could be the purpose of the OG Titans (I wouldn't argue with a name change). Protecting earth from world-sized problems while the League tackle threats from beyond, like the microverse, rogue angel kings, 5th dimensional imps, etc. 

If they can't go their separate ways while remaining friends, this might be a viable solution. Make them the "new" League while the actual League starts thinking *really* big.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That guy who plays Nightwing on the You Tube videos has the right look.


their are multiple

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm beginning to think Titans and Teen Titans should be condensed into one book.  We need more Dick/Damian dynamic, and maybe it's time to give Kory another try.  They'e been broken up for--what?--twenty years now?


you wont get that dynamic in a large group

----------


## byrd156

> their are multiple


I assume he is talking about Ismahawk.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://i062.***********/1711/0d/a5246c202f4f.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb3qbHhFwHz/

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://i062.***********/1711/0d/a5246c202f4f.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb3qbHhFwHz/


Nice art post Nightbird.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i638/1711/c1/32bf5c914de7.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb3InZ1n5WF/

----------


## nightbird

> Nice art post Nightbird.


Nightwing brooding under the rain always a win =)

[img]http://s018.***********/i525/1711/f2/d6d2d7dea293.png[/img]
https://jasric.deviantart.com/art/Stakeout-635099758

----------


## Hizashi

> None of this makes any sense to me. They literally erased their history and neutered Dick. Why wouldn't people be upset? He lost his place in the DCU and still hasn't recovered from it. He literally only matters nowadays because his book sells well and he still appears in other media. And it's not just Dick, Titans fans care about _all_ the Titans. I care about what the New 52 did to Kory, about the fact Wally and Donna didn't exist, etc. 
> 
> Your opinion would make sense if I was reading it in 2010, when Dick and Donna were on the League, the other Titans were elsewhere, Vic was chilling at STAR Labs, etc.


Yeah, it was a questionable decision (to say the least) to remove relationships from a character that has strong relationships with others as a key characteristic.

----------


## Hizashi

> You know, this post got me thinking.....
> 
> The League formed, what, about ten years in the past? I mean, current New52-Rebirth continuity is weird but a rough decade of the League has been the standard timeline for a while.
> 
> Is it weird that we expect other teams to evolve and grow beyond their original writ but not the League? If those guys were the greatest heroes on earth ten years ago.....wouldn't another decade of experience also mean they've expanded their jurisdiction to accommodate? 
> 
> Batman started looking at world-wide problems and built Batman Inc, partially to make sure that the smaller, city-sized problems didn't get ignored. What if the League did the same thing? Instead of dealing with rogue nations, terrorists, alien invasions, and hellish conquerors, they started dealing with larger-scale, higher-concept stuff like cosmic manifestations (Imperiex, for example). Who's left on earth to focus on the "small" stuff the League isn't dealing with? The Fab5, of course.
> 
> I think that could be the purpose of the OG Titans (I wouldn't argue with a name change). Protecting earth from world-sized problems while the League tackle threats from beyond, like the microverse, rogue angel kings, 5th dimensional imps, etc. 
> ...


I would love this, it seems like a natural progression to me.

----------


## nightbird

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/23/n...y-lego-batman/

Another tweet from Chris McKay about Nightwing movie. I don’t know what to think about it. Should I be worried?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i619/1711/38/4f99057c3c49.jpg[/IMG]
credit:logo

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah, it was a questionable decision (to say the least) to remove relationships from a character that has strong relationships with others as a key characteristic.


To remove is to erase and they didn`t do that. Outlaws set up right away that both Kory and Roy already had met Dick.

----------


## TheCape

speedy26.jpg
Discowing after helping Roy with his custody issues  :Smile:

----------


## chief12d

> Couldn't hold my tongue any longer on the Titans topic, lol. I tried. 
> 
> I still think that the concept of Titans as adults is broken. It will never work. What made the Titans different from the JL is that they were teens and that offered a different dynamic to the adult heroes and that will always be ingrained in the Titans brand. You can't separate it from them. It made sense they would be treated as a younger generation that needed guidance and not completely ready to be the "go to" heroes because they were still teens. So it was okay that they didn't have a goal or a mission statement as a team because their goal was to learn to be heroes and experience what being on was like. That isn't the case now and hasn't been so for a long, long time. They have been adults for decades, and to keep trying to do the same things as when they were teens will always look and feel awkward. 
> 
> As adults they are just lesser versions of the JL and offer nothing that the JL can't do themselves and do better. The uniqueness they had as teens is gone. They have no clear goal or purpose other than just be a team that is together because they were together when they were teens, and have nowhere else to go because the JL characters already do what they should be doing as adults and makes them redundant. The Titans should remain a franchise focused on teen characters and the adults should move on to the JL, JSA, or some other team where they can separate themselves from the Titans franchise and what it holds them to.


It's all a matter of finding a niche. Let's be frank, the Fab 5 are never gonna be as powerful or experienced as their mentors, so setting them up as a conventional super team kinda sets them up for failure because there's already a superior group in the Justice League. They need a goal or principle that makes them distinct from their predecessors so they can have their own interesting storylines that don't deal with rehashed villains and plots. The Justice League cover the general "protect the world" function much like the Avengers do at Marvel. The Titans need a field to operate in that gives them something different, much like the X-Men, who have the whole mutant situation, or the Fantastic Four, who are explorers.

----------


## oasis1313

I think I'd pull Dick off the Titans team altogether and leave them to founder.  Form a new group around him (another Outsiders or Justice Society International?) with different characters like Frankenstein, Power Girl, Mr Bones, Jonah Hex, and Bat-Cow.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, it was a questionable decision (to say the least) to remove relationships from a character that has strong relationships with others as a key characteristic.


Usually I'd agree that stuff like that is questionable (at least) but with the OG Titans.....I dunno.

They're stuck in a rut because everyone seems to want the Wolfman era back....until DC publishes a reunion title, then no one buys it and it sees mediocre sales, which isn't nearly what a book like this *should* be doing. DC doesn't seem to know what the Titans are, or what purpose they serve beyond the fact that they were popular thirty years ago.

I think sweeping that history under the rug could have been a necessary evil that forced the Titans to grow, for the first time in ages. Which is somewhat ironic since the character growth they all saw under Wolfman is a big part of what made that run so memorable in the first place. 

DC dropped the ball with it by not providing a strong new start and role for everyone, but in theory I think it could have been what the characters needed.

----------


## Ascended

> I would love this, it seems like a natural progression to me.


Thanks. I think that's the only way to make viable, lasting change. You dont reboot. You dont twist continuity. You dont use cheap, short-term status quo shifts that will clearly be undone within a year or two. You just build forward. 

How badass would it be to see Dick in a position where he's the first guy who gets called when the world is in trouble? And not just because the League is fighting a swarm of Hyper Moths somewhere in the Bleed, but because Nightwing and his peers are recognized as the world-defending power houses they are and no one wants to deal with Batman because he's such a tool?

----------


## yohyoi

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/11/23/n...y-lego-batman/
> 
> Another tweet from Chris McKay about Nightwing movie. I dont know what to think about it. Should I be worried?


I always love a new perspective. Although it depends if he can respect what makes the character tick while adding something new.

----------


## yohyoi

> Thanks. I think that's the only way to make viable, lasting change. You dont reboot. You dont twist continuity. You dont use cheap, short-term status quo shifts that will clearly be undone within a year or two. You just build forward. 
> 
> How badass would it be to see Dick in a position where he's the first guy who gets called when the world is in trouble? And not just because the League is fighting a swarm of Hyper Moths somewhere in the Bleed, but because Nightwing and his peers are recognized as the world-defending power houses they are and no one wants to deal with Batman because he's such a tool?


I would like Dick's generation to have more responsibility and respect instead of being sidelined right now. I would like for them to be treated equally with the JL members, but the JL members should still have seniority. It would be nice to see how the JL handle the realization their old sidekicks are all grown up. There should be conflict, drama and disagreements coming from the clash of old vs new. It's unlikely DC does this because it makes the JL seem old; but it's a natural progression of the DCU.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I would like Dick's generation to have more responsibility and respect instead of being sidelined right now. I would like for them to be treated equally with the JL members, but the JL members should still have seniority. It would be nice to see how the JL handle the realization their old sidekicks are all grown up. There should be conflict, drama and disagreements coming from the clash of old vs new. It's unlikely DC does this because it makes the JL seem old; but it's a natural progression of the DCU.


Well 
wally , Roy and garth all work with their mentors, howver we all saw how they threated them when they were in the groups, their not respectful, and I dont knwot how we are gonna get to a point of being trated as equals,

----------


## CPSparkles

Nightwing and Robin

----------


## oasis1313

> Usually I'd agree that stuff like that is questionable (at least) but with the OG Titans.....I dunno.
> 
> They're stuck in a rut because everyone seems to want the Wolfman era back....until DC publishes a reunion title, then no one buys it and it sees mediocre sales, which isn't nearly what a book like this *should* be doing. DC doesn't seem to know what the Titans are, or what purpose they serve beyond the fact that they were popular thirty years ago.
> 
> I think sweeping that history under the rug could have been a necessary evil that forced the Titans to grow, for the first time in ages. Which is somewhat ironic since the character growth they all saw under Wolfman is a big part of what made that run so memorable in the first place. 
> 
> DC dropped the ball with it by not providing a strong new start and role for everyone, but in theory I think it could have been what the characters needed.


I was at ringside reading Teen Titans back in the early 60's and I thought they were lame even when I was a little kid, always fighting these yo-yo swingin' bad guys, talking so-called teen jive at the time.  If it was a bad concept then, it's a doubly bad concept now.  The ONLY good thing about the old title is that Dick was smart (but then again, that was before Tim Dreck was invented and DC turned Dick Grayson into a stupid male bimbo so that Timmy Wimmy would look soooo much smarter).  I pretty much hated everything--Gnark, Ding Dong Daddy, the Mad Mod, you name it.  The Wolfman/Perez Titans were great--until Perez left the book.  Wolfman turned into Chris Claremont's ghost writer and the book died a slow death.  Going back to the 60's stuff is bad news 'cause it sucks even more now than it did back then.  And I hate it that Dick Grayson is forced to be in this crappy book.

----------


## Pohzee

A DC publisher’s explanation of the decision to cancel Teen Titans in the ‘70s.



> The last time we canceled that book, it was making a profit when we canceled it, one of the few occasions in history that we canceled a successful book because we were so embarrassed by the creative content.

----------


## oasis1313

> A DC publisher’s explanation of the decision to cancel Teen Titans in the ‘70s.


There wasn't an editor to tell the "creative team": This material sucks!  Go write/draw something good and have it on my desk in a week!"

----------


## TheCape

Wow, i guest that Ding Dong Daddy and Mr Twister didn't let a great impression on then   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> There wasn't an editor to tell the "creative team": This material sucks!  Go write/draw something good and have it on my desk in a week!"


Not that it’s made a difference for them now.

----------


## Frontier

> A DC publisher’s explanation of the decision to cancel Teen Titans in the ‘70s.


I don't think you'd ever see that now. 

I can't recall in recent memory the last time a published canceled a successful selling book just because they didn't like the content.

----------


## Godlike13

That's hilarious.

----------


## Ascended

So all this talk of Dick (and more so the Titans) needing a niche to call his/their own.....

Assuming other people feel like Grayson needs something to remove him from Bruce's shadow.....what about putting him in a setting where he's not dealing with gun runners and mobsters but alien spies and metahuman lunatics? A little more "Metropolis" than "Gotham" type of thing? I mentioned it a few pages back and now the idea is sorta stuck in my head. Is it just me, or does that sound an awful lot like Dick Grayson to you guys? 

I mean, outside of team books how often do you get to see non-powered heroes working in the daylight, fighting monsters and aliens and demigods? It's something no one else is really doing.....

----------


## wvchemteach

> Couldn't hold my tongue any longer on the Titans topic, lol. I tried. 
> 
> I still think that the concept of Titans as adults is broken. It will never work. What made the Titans different from the JL is that they were teens and that offered a different dynamic to the adult heroes and that will always be ingrained in the Titans brand. You can't separate it from them. It made sense they would be treated as a younger generation that needed guidance and not completely ready to be the "go to" heroes because they were still teens. So it was okay that they didn't have a goal or a mission statement as a team because their goal was to learn to be heroes and experience what being on was like. That isn't the case now and hasn't been so for a long, long time. They have been adults for decades, and to keep trying to do the same things as when they were teens will always look and feel awkward. 
> 
> As adults they are just lesser versions of the JL and offer nothing that the JL can't do themselves and do better. The uniqueness they had as teens is gone. They have no clear goal or purpose other than just be a team that is together because they were together when they were teens, and have nowhere else to go because the JL characters already do what they should be doing as adults and makes them redundant. The Titans should remain a franchise focused on teen characters and the adults should move on to the JL, JSA, or some other team where they can separate themselves from the Titans franchise and what it holds them to.


The direction of an adult Titans was laid out a few years ago with the Young Justice cartoon.

Leave the Teen Titans as the babysitting/training wheels team.

Pull traditional Titans Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy to the adult Titans, cancel the Cyborg solo-title that no one buys and reads and put him in both Titans and Justice League and make the adult Titans the under the radar, deal with the dirty stuff the Justice League can't be seen dealing with because they can't get their hands dirty and go from there.

----------


## Aahz

> Pull traditional Titans Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy to the adult Titans, cancel the Cyborg solo-title that no one buys and reads and put him in both Titans and Justice League and make the adult Titans the under the radar, deal with the dirty stuff the Justice League can't be seen dealing with because they can't get their hands dirty and go from there.


I don't think that this really is a good fit for these characters, and most of the Titans are in universe way to famous to go under the radar imo.

And they actually did that kind of post graduation day.

----------


## Avi

> Nightwing and Robin


That's cute.  :Big Grin: 




> So all this talk of Dick (and more so the Titans) needing a niche to call his/their own.....
> 
> Assuming other people feel like Grayson needs something to remove him from Bruce's shadow.....what about putting him in a setting where he's not dealing with gun runners and mobsters but alien spies and metahuman lunatics? A little more "Metropolis" than "Gotham" type of thing? I mentioned it a few pages back and now the idea is sorta stuck in my head. Is it just me, or does that sound an awful lot like Dick Grayson to you guys? 
> 
> I mean, outside of team books how often do you get to see non-powered heroes working in the daylight, fighting monsters and aliens and demigods? It's something no one else is really doing.....


I think it's a good idea, especially having Dick deal with aliens always feöt like a missed opportunity to me. With his connection to Kory and Clark it would be interesting to see aliens react to a Nightwing who is not Kryptonian and maybe Dick would use some of the Tamaran customs to understand his opponents or possible allies better.

Dick going against more powerful opponents would also make for good team-ups, though it should always be Dick deciding he needs help instead of being rescued because someone thinks he needs saving.

Or maybe the idea would be great for a Nightwing Team-Up book. It would establish lost friendships better and New Order seems to shows Dick can carry two books at the same time.

----------


## nightbird

> So all this talk of Dick (and more so the Titans) needing a niche to call his/their own.....
> 
> Assuming other people feel like Grayson needs something to remove him from Bruce's shadow.....what about putting him in a setting where he's not dealing with gun runners and mobsters but alien spies and metahuman lunatics? A little more "Metropolis" than "Gotham" type of thing? I mentioned it a few pages back and now the idea is sorta stuck in my head. Is it just me, or does that sound an awful lot like Dick Grayson to you guys? 
> 
> I mean, outside of team books how often do you get to see non-powered heroes working in the daylight, fighting monsters and aliens and demigods? It's something no one else is really doing.....


Maybe, if aliens not depicted as super-powered beings (as usual), otherwise it would make no sense in universe where Superman and GLC exist to deal with aliens. Anyway, you neeed a great writer to rightly execute this idea.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I mean Seeley's always tried to mention Bludhaven gets spillover from both Gotham and Metropolis. Gotham villains, but Metropolis gangs and alien weapons (Second Hand stuff so that's already been dealt with).

----------


## Frontier

> I mean Seeley's always tried to mention Bludhaven gets spillover from both Gotham and Metropolis. Gotham villains, but Metropolis gangs and alien weapons (Second Hand stuff so that's already been dealt with).


He's also fought a few Metahumans in Bludhaven too, and a whole host of villains in one issue.

----------


## Ascended

> Maybe, if aliens not depicted as super-powered beings (as usual), otherwise it would make no sense in universe where Superman and GLC exist to deal with aliens. Anyway, you neeed a great writer to rightly execute this idea.


You'd definitely need the right writer, but I dont think (for what my unprofessional opinion is worth) its as narrow a line to walk as it seems. Dick's been fighting high-level metahumans most of his life; give him a suit that's a little more durable and some escrima sticks that pack a serious, electrified punch, and he'd be able to get the job done.

EDIT: I was thinking....we've seen the Batman Beyond suit in prototype stages a couple times in regular DC continuity....what about a suit sort of like that, with the gliding wings (throwback to Dick's disco suit) and night vision/thermal/infrared visual settings and other "utility belt" type tricks, but without the enhanced strength and agility? 

As for why Grayson would deal with these problems instead of Clark or the Lantern Corps.....well, those guys are busy I guess? What's the line of reasoning DC uses for the League not going into Gotham and cleaning the whole city up in a week?  :Smile: 




> He's also fought a few Metahumans in Bludhaven too, and a whole host of villains in one issue.


He fights low to mid tier metas, sure. Blockbuster and whatnot. But I'm talking more high end; Sinestro Corps members, Dr. Polaris, stuff like that.

----------


## byrd156

> You'd definitely need the right writer, but I dont think (for what my unprofessional opinion is worth) its as narrow a line to walk as it seems. Dick's been fighting high-level metahumans most of his life; give him a suit that's a little more durable and some escrima sticks that pack a serious, electrified punch, and he'd be able to get the job done.
> 
> EDIT: I was thinking....we've seen the Batman Beyond suit in prototype stages a couple times in regular DC continuity....what about a suit sort of like that, with the gliding wings (throwback to Dick's disco suit) and night vision/thermal/infrared visual settings and other "utility belt" type tricks, but without the enhanced strength and agility? 
> 
> As for why Grayson would deal with these problems instead of Clark or the Lantern Corps.....well, those guys are busy I guess? What's the line of reasoning DC uses for the League not going into Gotham and cleaning the whole city up in a week? 
> 
> 
> 
> He fights low to mid tier metas, sure. Blockbuster and whatnot. But I'm talking more high end; Sinestro Corps members, Dr. Polaris, stuff like that.


Is Dr.Polaris really considered to be a more high end villain? I have nothing against him but I don't really see him used anywhere.

----------


## Frontier

> EDIT: I was thinking....we've seen the Batman Beyond suit in prototype stages a couple times in regular DC continuity....what about a suit sort of like that, with the gliding wings (throwback to Dick's disco suit) and night vision/thermal/infrared visual settings and other "utility belt" type tricks, but without the enhanced strength and agility?


The DCAU Nightwing suit had gliding wings, as I recall  :Smile: . 




> He fights low to mid tier metas, sure. Blockbuster and whatnot. But I'm talking more high end; Sinestro Corps members, Dr. Polaris, stuff like that.


I think that would be a fun for a few one-off issues, but I'm not sure if they should make it a consistent thing because that might mean poaching a lot of villains from other heroes or potentially straining credibility for Dick beating these A-list villains (or at least A_list powerwise). 

Granted, it's the same issue for Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Is Dr.Polaris really considered to be a more high end villain? I have nothing against him but I don't really see him used anywhere.


Power-wise he's one of those villains who should be way more powerful then he's generally depicted as being. 

Even in his often psychotic state he was able to give Superman and two GL's a really hard time.

----------


## byrd156

> The DCAU Nightwing suit had gliding wings, as I recall . 
> 
> 
> I think that would be a fun for a few one-off issues, but I'm not sure if they should make it a consistent thing because that might mean poaching a lot of villains from other heroes or potentially straining credibility for Dick beating these A-list villains (or at least A_list powerwise). 
> 
> Granted, it's the same issue for Batman .
> 
> Power-wise he's one of those villains who should be way more powerful then he's generally depicted as being. 
> 
> Even in his often psychotic state he was able to give Superman and two GL's a really hard time.


I'm not disputing his power levels, I was just questioning more the popularity of him in terms of "high-end" villains. I don't remember seeing Polaris anywhere (except in Futures End or something like that) as of late. It would be cool to see him pop up in Dick's book. I think Dick working as a daytime hero and/or nighttime hero works either way. I think thats something that should be emphasized about Dick, he can work in pretty much any situation from detective stories to fighting aliens in his own book. While Batman does this but only in separate books.

Bringing back the gliding and updating the gadgets to be a little more unique to Dick would definitely help him out I think. The escrima sticks and electricity are great additions to Dick that are unique. Like Dare-devil's billy clubs or Batman's batarangs they are very much a part of the characters make-up.

----------


## nightbird

> You'd definitely need the right writer, but I dont think (for what my unprofessional opinion is worth) its as narrow a line to walk as it seems. Dick's been fighting high-level metahumans most of his life; give him a suit that's a little more durable and some escrima sticks that pack a serious, electrified punch, and he'd be able to get the job done.
> 
> EDIT: I was thinking....we've seen the Batman Beyond suit in prototype stages a couple times in regular DC continuity....what about a suit sort of like that, with the gliding wings (throwback to Dick's disco suit) and night vision/thermal/infrared visual settings and other "utility belt" type tricks, but without the enhanced strength and agility? 
> 
> As for why Grayson would deal with these problems instead of Clark or the Lantern Corps.....well, those guys are busy I guess? What's the line of reasoning DC uses for the League not going into Gotham and cleaning the whole city up in a week? 
> 
> 
> 
> He fights low to mid tier metas, sure. Blockbuster and whatnot. But I'm talking more high end; Sinestro Corps members, Dr. Polaris, stuff like that.


Maybe it’s time to make Dick a metahuman then? /lol, jk.

I think night vision and etc. was alredy shown as part of his mask equipment, no? 
I agree Dick needs some new gadgets (and some kind of utility belt; honestly they didn’t even give him one as Robin, which is insane for Batman’s sidekick). And animation, shows and comics should really adapt his electrified escrima sticks from games. 

Are you sure Supes and GLC wouldn’t get territorial about Nightwing fighting their enemies? lol

----------


## Ascended

> The DCAU Nightwing suit had gliding wings, as I recall .


I believe that it did. But the last time I recall seeing them in print was during Infinite Crisis when he and Conner Kent flew to the arctic. 

Past time Nightwing got his wings back, if you ask me. 




> I think that would be a fun for a few one-off issues, but I'm not sure if they should make it a consistent thing because that might mean poaching a lot of villains from other heroes or potentially straining credibility for Dick beating these A-list villains (or at least A_list powerwise).


Yeah, I honestly dont know how sustainable it would be. But I think a solid writer could handle having Dick taking on major threats without breaking his credibility. If he can fight Trigon at the ripe old age of 16 then he can fight higher end metahumans as an adult.  




> I think night vision and etc. was alredy shown as part of his mask equipment, no? 
> I agree Dick needs some new gadgets (and some kind of utility belt; honestly they didnt even give him one as Robin, which is insane for Batmans sidekick). And animation, shows and comics should really adapt his electrified escrima sticks from games.


Yeah, I think those are part of his mask's current abilities? I dropped the book a little while back (trying to trade wait more stuff) so I'm a little out of touch. But the man could definitely benefit from some updated gadgets and gear regardless.




> Are you sure Supes and GLC wouldnt get territorial about Nightwing fighting their enemies? lol


I think they'll be fine with it.  :Smile:  Clark especially. I mean, back in the day he always seemed to think of Grayson as a favorite nephew; I'm sure Clark would be proud as can be if Dick took down one of his villains.

Really, Dick has a few rogues of his own that are worth keeping, more who could amount to something with a little TLC, and there are villains from the Superman, Batman, and Titans franchises that aren't being used at all, which Nightwing could poach as well. I don't want to see him steal big names like Metallo or Two-Face, but a villain like the Atomic Skull or Doctor Light? No one uses them very much anyway so it's not really a loss. 

And while we're on the topic of ridiculous ideas that'll never happen, did anyone else watch that Harley & Batman cartoon movie and think that's a pairing (Harley and Dick) that could actually work in the comics? Harley's been an anti-hero for a while now, Dick has a thing for bad girls, and they both have that "ex-sidekick" thing going. Obviously this would never, and should never, happen, but a twisted part of me wants to see it, if for no other reason than so Nightwing could rub it in Joker's face the next time they fight.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, I honestly dont know how sustainable it would be. But I think a solid writer could handle having Dick taking on major threats without breaking his credibility. If he can fight Trigon at the ripe old age of 16 then he can fight higher end metahumans as an adult.


Granted, he had a whole team behind him then...




> Really, Dick has a few rogues of his own that are worth keeping, more who could amount to something with a little TLC, and there are villains from the Superman, Batman, and Titans franchises that aren't being used at all, which Nightwing could poach as well. I don't want to see him steal big names like Metallo or Two-Face, but a villain like the Atomic Skull or Doctor Light? No one uses them very much anyway so it's not really a loss.


I think the higher-end Metas who bounce around books would probably be pretty easy to have Dick face off against. 




> And while we're on the topic of ridiculous ideas that'll never happen, did anyone else watch that Harley & Batman cartoon movie and think that's a pairing (Harley and Dick) that could actually work in the comics? Harley's been an anti-hero for a while now, Dick has a thing for bad girls, and they both have that "ex-sidekick" thing going. Obviously this would never, and should never, happen, but a twisted part of me wants to see it, if for no other reason than so Nightwing could rub it in Joker's face the next time they fight.


I'm pretty comfortable just leaving Dick and Harley's relationship to that kiss from the annual.

----------


## Hizashi

> I believe that it did. But the last time I recall seeing them in print was during Infinite Crisis when he and Conner Kent flew to the arctic. 
> 
> Past time Nightwing got his wings back, if you ask me.


Yeah, I think his suit having wings would be neat and set up a connection to Batman Beyond, if a writer chooses to use it.




> Yeah, I honestly dont know how sustainable it would be. But I think a solid writer could handle having Dick taking on major threats without breaking his credibility. If he can fight Trigon at the ripe old age of 16 then he can fight higher end metahumans as an adult.


Not a regular thing, but maybe one or two major a-list villains?




> I think they'll be fine with it.  Clark especially. I mean, back in the day he always seemed to think of Grayson as a favorite nephew; I'm sure Clark would be proud as can be if Dick took down one of his villains.
> 
> Really, Dick has a few rogues of his own that are worth keeping, more who could amount to something with a little TLC, and there are villains from the Superman, Batman, and Titans franchises that aren't being used at all, which Nightwing could poach as well. I don't want to see him steal big names like Metallo or Two-Face, but a villain like the Atomic Skull or Doctor Light? No one uses them very much anyway so it's not really a loss. 
> 
> And while we're on the topic of ridiculous ideas that'll never happen, did anyone else watch that Harley & Batman cartoon movie and think that's a pairing (Harley and Dick) that could actually work in the comics? Harley's been an anti-hero for a while now, Dick has a thing for bad girls, and they both have that "ex-sidekick" thing going. Obviously this would never, and should never, happen, but a twisted part of me wants to see it, if for no other reason than so Nightwing could rub it in Joker's face the next time they fight.


Now I want Dick to hangout with Jon (bring Damian along too, why not). And I agree that Clark would be more than happy for Dick's help, whether he needs it or not.

Nightwing and Harley? Well, now I won't be able to get this outta my head, I would read it with a morbid curiosity...

----------


## Gray Lensman

> Now I want Dick to hangout with Jon (bring Damian along too, why not). And I agree that Clark would be more than happy for Dick's help, whether he needs it or not.
> 
> Nightwing and Harley? Well, now I won't be able to get this outta my head, I would read it with a morbid curiosity...


She could be his Catwoman... :Wink:  *spoilers:*
Yahtzee!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Ascended

> Granted, he had a whole team behind him then...


And now he's an adult in his prime who spent most of his life in a costume and has been trained by the best of the best. He could hold his own.  :Smile:  I mean, someone like Zod....probably not, but Metallo or Parasite? I can see it.

With Metallo in particular....everyone thinks of him as a C-list villain, but he's able to fight Clark and hold his own. Sure, he's at a bit of a physical disadvantage, neither as strong or durable or fast, but even without resorting to kryptonite he's still able to hang, which means he should be able to wipe the floor with almost everyone else. Taking him down would be a huge feat for Dick and really sell how capable he is. 




> I think the higher-end Metas who bounce around books would probably be pretty easy to have Dick face off against.


The ones without a regular home? Yeah, I was thinking about villains like that too, which is why I mentioned Polaris earlier.

How many high-powered, "homeless" villains are out there? 




> Not a regular thing, but maybe one or two major a-list villains?


I think regardless of what DC does with Dick (probably just keep him as Bat-lite) they should do this. Even if its just a couple villains to add some spice to the mix.




> Nightwing and Harley? Well, now I won't be able to get this outta my head, I would read it with a morbid curiosity...


Yeah, its like a car accident isn't it? You're disgusted by it but you can't look away.....

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'm all for taking on higher-end threats, but aren't we taking it a bit far with people like Dr. Polaris? How would Dick even beat him? There's a reason we don't ever see Bruce fight those kind of metas without Superman backing him up. Now, I'm not saying Dick shouldn't be fighting these threats, but he's going to need to go through a major shift in capabilities to be fighting enemies like that. I mean, that stuff was reserved to the various teams he would be leading after all. Would there be any reason for Dick to be on a team if he was able to take people like that on? I think the current iteration of the Titans would need to be overhauled with a new direction that prevents Dick's new elevated status from overshadowing the others.

The other thing is... Why do we need Dick to fight Atomic Skull or Doctor Light? Like... they're not being used much for a reason, I'm not sure why they'd randomly become great when they fight Dick? I'm not opposed to him fighting them, but I feel like it just wouldn't mean much more than Dick fighting off Kid Amazo and Magog like he's already done. My point is, they're not really higher-end, nor all that much more popular so... it's a weird suggestion, imo. Honestly, I've seen Blockbuster's name come up soooo much more than either, and really, Arthur only gets brought up because of that, you know, terrible thing he did. But again, I'd be down for it. 

So... how exactly would Dick be taking on these enemies on the regular without making him a metahuman? I think it'd be cool if he started using Prometheum and the other heavy metals in his equipment, like his escrima sticks. Maybe he can get an Ikon suit after chilling with Joe. Obviously, they're powerful metals since they can do everything from give Dick multiversal visions to giving the Hawks, and even Duke, their powers.

At the end of the day, I just want to see Dick doing cool shit, along with personal stuff, so whether that involves travelling to Saturn or Gemworld, I want to see it, but that is totally not what DC is doing with him right now. Tbh, DC doesn't have much reason to let Dick do that stuff when they can give that to Bruce or Clark or Diana, you know?

----------


## Badou

I'm not against Dick facing off against different kind of villains, especially stronger ones not named Blockbuster, but Dick doesn't really use a lot of tech or equipment. Like his escrima sticks are basically it for him. Characters like Bruce have a list of tech they can use if they want to take on some big metahuman threat on their own that writers can come up with. I think they would have to change how they currently want to write Dick as a character as Nightwing to do that. They really want to keep him in his Daredevil mold right now and Daredevil isn't really a character that takes on big threats or uses tech.

----------


## Ascended

> So... how exactly would Dick be taking on these enemies on the regular without making him a metahuman? I think it'd be cool if he started using Prometheum and the other heavy metals in his equipment, like his escrima sticks. Maybe he can get an Ikon suit after chilling with Joe. Obviously, they're powerful metals since they can do everything from give Dick multiversal visions to giving the Hawks, and even Duke, their powers.


Well, you sort of answer your own question here. A little prometheum padding on the suit, a little Nth metal in the escrima sticks, etc. I don't think you'd need to totally "Iron Man" Nightwing but you'd have to upgrade his equipment and bring it from Batman's "only slightly impossible" status to "Yeah, this stuff doesn't exist" levels. 

He'd need gear like what Deathstroke uses; stronger than any real material, capable of withstanding superhuman force. And of course, even then you'd have to write Dick as out-smarting his foes, not over-powering them.




> At the end of the day, I just want to see Dick doing cool shit, along with personal stuff, so whether that involves travelling to Saturn or Gemworld, I want to see it, but that is totally not what DC is doing with him right now. Tbh, DC doesn't have much reason to let Dick do that stuff when they can give that to Bruce or Clark or Diana, you know?


The idea crossed my mind when I was thinking about Dick's relationship to Superman and how that never gets brought up anymore. And I thought it'd be fun to see Dick move to Metropolis for a year, just to spend time with the "extended family" and do something other than the street level stuff his solo has always focused on. Remember the Brave and the Bold cartoon? Something like that, with Dick instead of Bruce. To me, it just feels like a natural fit, given Dick's history beyond Gotham.

And I too just want to see Dick in great, fun stories. I'm not picky about what shape they take. And I dont know if this is a good direction for the character or not, or if it would be sustainable or better off as a short term "break" or what. But Nightwing in a "B&TB" type book (in regards to breadth of subgenre, not necessarily tone).....that does appeal to me.

----------


## Ascended

Meant to reply to this bit too, but erased it by mistake. Sorry!




> The other thing is... Why do we need Dick to fight Atomic Skull or Doctor Light? Like... they're not being used much for a reason, I'm not sure why they'd randomly become great when they fight Dick? I'm not opposed to him fighting them, but I feel like it just wouldn't mean much more than Dick fighting off Kid Amazo and Magog like he's already done. My point is, they're not really higher-end, nor all that much more popular so... it's a weird suggestion, imo. Honestly, I've seen Blockbuster's name come up soooo much more than either, and really, Arthur only gets brought up because of that, you know, terrible thing he did. But again, I'd be down for it.


Its all about development. Now, Atomic Skull and Dr. Light in particular? Those are just two names I pulled out of the ether as random examples. But what Im saying is that there are some D-list villains out there with a lot of raw power that no one has done much with. The only difference between someone like Lex Luthor and Atomic Skull is that writers put in the effort to make Luthor a cool villain and interesting character, while the Atomic Skull shows up for a cameo appearance once every ten years. And Nightwing could take those ignored villains that no one will miss and develop them into something interesting. For Superman, we're talking about a D-list foe who has been shouldered out of the spotlight by bigger names. For Nightwing its chance to put that villain in the spotlight and make them better. 

Consider Marvel's Kingpin. He started out as a Spider-Man villain but didn't really amount to much because there were more developed, more colorful villains for Parker to deal with. Then when Kingpin started dealing with Daredevil, he got development and attention......and now the Kingpin is one of Marvel's greatest street level villains. If Daredevil hadn't "borrowed" him, would we still be saying that? 

New villains could, and absolutely should, be introduced in any book too, regardless of what that book is about. But an established name, even a D-list villain, gives readers something to measure the scale and threat of the story by. It's a reference point as well as bragging rights for Dick. Even if he just takes down a D-list Superman foe, he still took down someone capable of fighting Superman. That's impressive, and if we allow that Batman can do it, why not Dick?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> *Well, you sort of answer your own question here.* A little prometheum padding on the suit, a little Nth metal in the escrima sticks, etc. I don't think you'd need to totally "Iron Man" Nightwing but you'd have to upgrade his equipment and bring it from Batman's "only slightly impossible" status to "Yeah, this stuff doesn't exist" levels. 
> 
> He'd need gear like what Deathstroke uses; stronger than any real material, capable of withstanding superhuman force.


That was exactly my intention, lmao. I was just raising the point, it was rhetorical. And yeah, I agree. 




> The idea crossed my mind when I was thinking about Dick's relationship to Superman and how that never gets brought up anymore. And I thought it'd be fun to see Dick move to Metropolis for a year, just to spend time with the "extended family" and do something other than the street level stuff his solo has always focused on. Remember the Brave and the Bold cartoon? Something like that, with Dick instead of Bruce. To me, it just feels like a natural fit, given Dick's history beyond Gotham.
> 
> And I too just want to see Dick in great, fun stories. I'm not picky about what shape they take. And I dont know if this is a good direction for the character or not, or if it would be sustainable or better off as a short term "break" or what. But Nightwing in a "B&TB" type book (in regards to breadth of subgenre, not necessarily tone).....that does appeal to me.


Well, it's referenced in Dick's stuff often. There was Grayson #10 and Annual #2, then Nightwing #9, and again, Seeley mentions Metropolis street gangs and such are in Bludhaven now. Ultimately, it's the Superman books that are absolutely slacking. Dick has yet to be mentioned in Superman, Action, Supergirl, and even Super Sons, all books that would make a lot of sense for Dick to appear in. Again, it just comes down to DC not wanting to change Dick's position in the DCU right now, like Badou mentioned. Dick's stuck as the Daredevil right now, it's always gonna be Bruce doing the Brave and the Bold stuff (literally, that Swamp Thing team was literally "the Brave and the Mold," and we're getting a Batman/Wonder Woman mini under that title).

Edit: Might as well just address your other post, too: Atomic Skull actually appeared in and got a lot of development in the Superwoman book. Like, that book kinda bombed, tbh, so of course it's not well known, but it'll take more than just focus and development. Popularity plays a big part in this stuff. 

Anyways, I was thinking about Light again, and I just remembered that his only two meaningful appearances as of late was in Nightwing: The New Order (so there's another point for him showing up in the main book, I guess) and in Deathstroke, which is going all in on a story about The Society (of Super-Villains) and also had Raptor guest star in it. Basically, now I'm stuck wishing we could get a Nightwing vs. The Society story that we'll never get.

----------


## Hizashi

Anybody read the Captain America Dimension Z story? I think it would be interesting to see Nightwing stuck in an alternate reality for a four-issue arc/series that could explain any changes DC might feel necessary to sell readers an upgraded Nightwing.

And now I need a Nightwing/Harley series.

----------


## oasis1313

> Anybody read the Captain America Dimension Z story? I think it would be interesting to see Nightwing stuck in an alternate reality for a four-issue arc/series that could explain any changes DC might feel necessary to sell readers an upgraded Nightwing.
> 
> And now I need a Nightwing/Harley series.


Why not hook him up with Harley.  They've both been in abusive relationships--maybe they'd appreciate each other.  For a change.  Heck, I'd just like to see Dick with a girl who isn't slugging him in his pretty face all the time.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah cause Harley doesn't slug people lol. Besides take a look at how writers are hellbent on wifing Ivy and neutering Joker for Harley's benefit. Dick would become her pet in no time.

----------


## nightbird

Nightwing/Harley is terrible pairing (and also yikes). She is popular, yeah, but they don’t really suit each other. And that terrible B&HQ animation made it even more obvious.

----------


## TheCape

Harley being with anybody, usually makes me cringe, i don't see her and Dick working at all.

----------


## RedQueen

I wouldn't say dating Harley would diminish his heroism, I also don't mean I don't mind him dating _reformed_ villains and such, which Harley is not at this point in time, but Harley in particular is loaded baggage. If Dick dates her there are a lot of implications, such as status in the Batfamily and the titans, Jason and Barbara's connection to the Joker, I mean everyone will have an opinion on it. Also if Harley were to long term date someone like Dick then they were have to heavily alter her character. 

I'm not saying it isn't feasible but there will be a lot of hoops to jump through to make it work so I'm not sure I would like the direction for Dick's character. Plus, I suffer a bit from Harley over exposure so her being featured with a character I like isn't something I'm really game for.

----------


## yohyoi

What are your opinions if Earth One: Robin happens?

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcAA8ydBOfa/

----------


## yohyoi

RobinE0.JPG

Looks good to me.

----------


## TheCape

I'm surprised that Earth One if still on frankly.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> What are your opinions if Earth One: Robin happens?
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcAA8ydBOfa/


I'd love it, but I doubt it'll actually happen anytime soon. Although if we're talking Lemire, then maybe he'd actually revamp his Teen Titans Earth One stuff to include Dick and other legacy characters like Donna if he wrote this, lol.

----------


## dietrich

> What are your opinions if Earth One: Robin happens?
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcAA8ydBOfa/


Is this really happening? There seem to be a lot of Dick Grayson projects  in the air like that Agent of Batman series with Superman.
Recently finished American Alien and Dick's appearance in it has me craving some Clark and Dick interactions.

----------


## nightbird

> Is this really happening? There seem to be a lot of Dick Grayson projects  in the air like that Agent of Batman series with Superman.
> Recently finished American Alien and Dick's appearance in it has me craving some Clark and Dick interactions.


 Agent of Batman? Did I miss something?

Also, if it's true, then big yes for more DickRobin books and stories.

----------


## yohyoi

> Is this really happening? There seem to be a lot of Dick Grayson projects  in the air like that Agent of Batman series with Superman.
> Recently finished American Alien and Dick's appearance in it has me craving some Clark and Dick interactions.


If I'm remembering it right, Max Landis is busy right now. Maybe it was postponed for a while. An Elseworld Supes is always welcome.

----------


## TheCape

> Agent of Batman? Did I miss some


If is a new Superman mini that Max Landis is writting.

----------


## TheCape

> Recently finished American Alien and Dick's appearance in it has me craving some Clark and Dick interactions.


Dick and Clark is usually gold 
superman-nightwing.jpg

----------


## dietrich

> If I'm remembering it right, Max Landis is busy right now. Maybe it was postponed for a while. An Elseworld Supes is always welcome.


I figured his work load was affecting it but I keep seeing little tit bits now and again that has me salivating. I love their interactions.

----------


## dietrich

> Agent of Batman? Did I miss something?
> 
> Also, if it's true, then big yes for more DickRobin books and stories.


Max Landis and yes to Modern DickRobin stories. The old ones are sweet but I would love to see RobinDick in more updated stories if you know what I mean.

----------


## yohyoi

We need this. I need this.

----------


## nightbird

> If is a new Superman mini that Max Landis is writting.


Yeah, I just googled it. I miss Supes and Dick being close, so I hope we will be able to read it at least next year.

----------


## nightbird

> We need this. I need this.


"thank you, uncle Clark" =)




> Max Landis and yes to Modern DickRobin stories. The old ones are sweet but I would love to see RobinDick in more updated stories if you know what I mean.


Totally. Imo, but I feel like DC needs to update DickRobin stories to show current readers why Dick is The Robin, why his time as Robin was important and how it affected Batman overall.

----------


## dietrich

> "thank you, uncle Clack" =)
> 
> 
> 
> Totally. Imo, but feel like DC needs to update DickRobin stories to show current readers why Dick is The Robin, why his time as Robin was important and how it affected Batman overall.


Exactly. I'm newish to comics and reading the old Batman and World's Finest with RobinDick those stories seem goofy. If not for the fact that I always liked Dick Grayson  from like always I probably won't want to read them. 

Same with a lot of the 80's and 90's comics. The art is so off putting

----------


## nightbird

> Exactly. I'm newish to comics and reading the old Batman and World's Finest with RobinDick those stories seem goofy. If not for the fact that I always liked Dick Grayson  from like always I probably won't want to read them. 
> 
> Same with a lot of the 80's and 90's comics. The art is so off putting


I had a great summer by reading some of them this year (I'm new for DCU too). They're indeed corny and goofy, although still so lovable. But I totally understand why majority of new readers think that they didn't age well.

----------


## Ascended

> Well, it's referenced in Dick's stuff often. There was Grayson #10 and Annual #2, then Nightwing #9, and again, Seeley mentions Metropolis street gangs and such are in Bludhaven now. Ultimately, it's the Superman books that are absolutely slacking. Dick has yet to be mentioned in Superman, Action, Supergirl, and even Super Sons, all books that would make a lot of sense for Dick to appear in.


This is true, the Super-books need to do a better job showcasing Nightwing as the "cousin" of the Family.




> Edit: Might as well just address your other post, too: Atomic Skull actually appeared in and got a lot of development in the Superwoman book. Like, that book kinda bombed, tbh, so of course it's not well known, but it'll take more than just focus and development. Popularity plays a big part in this stuff.


Well, like most people I didn't Superwoman so I dunno if we can point to that as a viable example of building a villain up. But even so, this is a short-term problem not a long-term one. Making a villain more interesting takes more than the.....16?.....issues Superwoman got. I mean, go read some of the early Joker stories; some of those were terrible and he wasn't a crazy popular villain right off the bat (heh, bat). If writers had just given up on the Joker after a bad story or two, he never would've become what he is today.

But again, Atomic Skull and Dr. Light were just two random examples. We shouldn't get hung up on those two particular villains here. 




> Dick and Clark is usually gold 
> Attachment 58340


I love these two hanging out together. It always seems like Clark doesn't entirely know what to do with Grayson and is always playing catch up.  :Smile:  Just like with that image you posted; Nightwing was skydiving off Metropolis towers, investigating something or other, and Clark swoops down thinking Dick is a jumper. 

I love seeing Clark off balance in good-natured dynamics.  :Smile:

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 58338
> 
> Looks good to me.


I forgot about this but sounds interesting.

----------


## dietrich

> I had a great summer by reading some of them this year (I'm new for DCU too). They're indeed corny and goofy, although still so lovable. But I totally understand why majority of new readers think that they didn't age well.


I'm having the best time searching them all out but will defiantly welcome newer RobinDick stuff.
I never realised just how much Clark Bruce and Dick teamed up back in the day. I recently got a couple of the collected black and white world's finest large volumes and they all have Dick partnering with them. 
One really understand's how far this character has cone and how much he has contributed to the DCU.
Also get why he is so beloved the world over.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s11.***********/i183/1711/b0/657edfcdd9a2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i503/1711/ff/d80efb67e195.jpg[/IMG]
http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/

----------


## nightbird

> I believe that it did. But the last time I recall seeing them in print was during Infinite Crisis when he and Conner Kent flew to the arctic. 
> 
> Past time Nightwing got his wings back, if you ask me. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I honestly dont know how sustainable it would be. But I think a solid writer could handle having Dick taking on major threats without breaking his credibility. If he can fight Trigon at the ripe old age of 16 then he can fight higher end metahumans as an adult.  
> 
> 
> ...


I’m sorry, I almost forgot to replay you. Here’s an example of Nightwing’s mask having thermal imaging option.

[IMG]http://s010.***********/i314/1711/e4/47ba41753cc7.png[/IMG]

or, with how DC sometimes treats their ex-sidekicks (coughTitanscough), maybe it’s not a stretch to assume, that if something one day goes wrong Supes and GLC would try to bench or control him and his activity as superhero.

----------


## nightbird

*NIGHTWING More Street-Level & Personal With New Creative Team*

https://www.newsarama.com/37513-nigh...ard-chang.html

----------


## Godlike13

More street level. Thats gonna go over well here.

----------


## Rakiduam

Street level it's not necessarily a bad thing, but how can you get more street level than the current run?

----------


## oasis1313

> I wouldn't say dating Harley would diminish his heroism, I also don't mean I don't mind him dating _reformed_ villains and such, which Harley is not at this point in time, but Harley in particular is loaded baggage. If Dick dates her there are a lot of implications, such as status in the Batfamily and the titans, Jason and Barbara's connection to the Joker, I mean everyone will have an opinion on it. Also if Harley were to long term date someone like Dick then they were have to heavily alter her character. 
> 
> I'm not saying it isn't feasible but there will be a lot of hoops to jump through to make it work so I'm not sure I would like the direction for Dick's character. Plus, I suffer a bit from Harley over exposure so her being featured with a character I like isn't something I'm really game for.


Oh, I'm just wondering out loud, no serious thoughts about it, really.  I haven't particularly liked Dick being the Man-Slut of the DCU, but if it's the company-desired role for him, I'd rather he dated different women rather than these two-month girlfriends who always end up trying to break his face--and it's always based on THEIR expectations and demands--there hasn't been a woman in the last several years who really cared enough about Dick to put him first in her heart and in her life--and that's what REAL love is all about.  And I really don't get that, because Dick Grayson would be a PRIZE catch for any young woman I could imagine.  REAL LOVE is something terribly missing in comics; all the young ladies I know want to see some positive relationships.  There is a gap in the generational reading progression for women:  Little girls love fairy tales with handsome princes and happily-ever-after.  Big girls from the age of reading "chapter books" to their deathbeds love romance novels.  But the early-->late teens is a space where there really isn't much out there to fill this void besides YA vampire stories.  Part of Peter Parker's success among female readers relies on his being a ROMANTIC HERO.  I think this is one reason I'm willing to give Dick-n-Kory another go, and I HATED that relationship with a bloody passion during its last years (after her "marriage of state"); it's been 2-3 decades ago, and the present incarnation of Kory is more of an Earth Mother type than Green Alien Tramp.  And I think Dick could use a loving, giving long-term relationship with a meta who can take care of herself.  If Kory's appearance is an issue, why not someone like Power Girl?  Frankly, I think Dick is far better husband material than Bruce will ever be.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Street level it's not necessarily a bad thing, but how can you get more street level than the current run?


Nightwing Must Die and Spyral were not street-level, for example. Hell, I don't think we'll get anything like #24 in terms of crazy action. Humphries is definitely going for a more Daredevil approach here, some more gritty action than the crazy fun Seeley gave us. 

I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing for the main book, it's just that I would expect bigger stories to come from the Titans book, which is totally not happening. So basically, it's kinda out of Humphries hands from my perspective. As long as he delivers good stories, I'm not complaining. And again, Dick's book is going to be the only traditional street level book at DC now, since Batman has always been pushing for these big epics and all the other books have different tones and directions.

----------


## Badou

It was to be expected. I think a possible reason Seeley wanted off the book was because DC might have wanted it to be more Bludhaven and street-level focused, which isn't what Seeley likes. It isn't really what I'm interested in, but I'm not surprised by it. Obviously this won't last, but they will probably stick with it for a while given all the other media stuff in the pipeline.

----------


## TheCape

I supposed that they are trying to make Dick, the Daredevil of the DC universe, again... well as long as they don't try to remade Born Again with him, i'm not against the direction. I'm still worried about Dick's voice for this run thougth.

----------


## TheCape

95d71fdc5bc878d31c299fc63657c834.jpg
Thougth that it would be proper to put this one here, Bruce has a picture of the time that all the male Robins came to his home

----------


## CPSparkles

> *NIGHTWING More Street-Level & Personal With New Creative Team*
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/37513-nigh...ard-chang.html


Okay have to say I'm liking the panels and i'm curious as to this never before seen power set

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing Must Die and Spyral were not street-level, for example. Hell, I don't think we'll get anything like #24 in terms of crazy action. Humphries is definitely going for a more Daredevil approach here, some more gritty action than the crazy fun Seeley gave us. 
> 
> I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing for the main book, it's just that I would expect bigger stories to come from the Titans book, which is totally not happening. So basically, it's kinda out of Humphries hands from my perspective. As long as he delivers good stories, I'm not complaining. *And again, Dick's book is going to be the only traditional street level book at DC now, since Batman has always been pushing for these big epics and all the other books have different tones and directions.*


This is why I brought up in the last _Nightwing_ thread how I was kind of wishing the main _Batman_ book was in this style  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> 95d71fdc5bc878d31c299fc63657c834.jpg
> Thougth that it would be proper to put this one here, Bruce has a picture of the time that all the male Robins came to his home


That...almost seems kind of creepy unless you lean into the idea that Alfred did it (still kind of creepy) or that Bruce is that doting of a father/foster parent  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 58376
> Thougth that it would be proper to put this one here, Bruce has a picture of the time that all the male Robins came to his home


The last two look like delinquents  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s11.***********/i183/1711/b0/657edfcdd9a2.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i503/1711/ff/d80efb67e195.jpg[/IMG]
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


These are nice. I love their outfits

----------


## TheCape

> That...almost seems kind of creepy unless you lean into the idea that Alfred did it (still kind of creepy) or that Bruce is that doting of a father/foster parent*.


It probably was Alfred idea, althougth to be honest, i was assuming that this are pictures of the first time that they came to Bruce house. Bronze Age Batman probably would do something like this thougth.

----------


## oasis1313

> This is why I brought up in the last _Nightwing_ thread how I was kind of wishing the main _Batman_ book was in this style .
> 
> That...almost seems kind of creepy unless you lean into the idea that Alfred did it (still kind of creepy) or that Bruce is that doting of a father/foster parent .


Is it a special Bat-Wallet?  I like the idea the deep down inside, Bruce is a Dad at heart.

----------


## TheCape

> Is it a special Bat-Wallet? I like the idea the deep down inside, Bruce is a Dad at heart


Even after Knigthfall, there would always be a part of Bruce that is a dad. Or a Batdad.

----------


## Ascended

> or, with how DC sometimes treats their ex-sidekicks (coughTitanscough), maybe its not a stretch to assume, that if something one day goes wrong Supes and GLC would try to bench or control him and his activity as superhero.


Well, there was a story back in the early 00's or so where Clark was slowly driven mad by a cosmic villain, and ended up basically taking over the world. He came down to Bludhaven to check in on Nightwing, and treated Nightwing with more respect and trust than he showed just about anyone else. So going by that, I'd figure Grayson is someone Clark wouldn't try to micro-manage. But any Superman who is actively trying to directly control someone is a Superman who has gone off the deep end so who knows how he'd respond?




> *NIGHTWING More Street-Level & Personal With New Creative Team*
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/37513-nigh...ard-chang.html


Eh, not what I want to see (obviously) but not a bad thing either. 

Ever since Dixon gave Dick his first ongoing solo, DC has tried to downplay his ties to the wider world and focus him through Gotham's lens. I don't really expect that to change, even if I think a new angle could be fun to see (at least for a little bit).

----------


## SpiderWing20

> *NIGHTWING More Street-Level & Personal With New Creative Team*
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/37513-nigh...ard-chang.html


Ill give it the first arc, if I dont like Ill drop it. Tired of them trying to shove street level down our throats

----------


## dan12456

> Nightwing Must Die and Spyral were not street-level, for example. Hell, I don't think we'll get anything like #24 in terms of crazy action. Humphries is definitely going for a more Daredevil approach here, some more gritty action than the crazy fun Seeley gave us. 
> 
> I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing for the main book, it's just that I would expect bigger stories to come from the Titans book, which is totally not happening. So basically, it's kinda out of Humphries hands from my perspective. As long as he delivers good stories, I'm not complaining. *And again, Dick's book is going to be the only traditional street level book at DC now, since Batman has always been pushing for these big epics and all the other books have different tones and directions.*


A lot of the Green Arrow arcs are pretty street level. but in the bat line this is shockingly true.

----------


## WonderNight

> I’ll give it the first arc, if I don’t like I’ll drop it. Tired of them trying to shove street level down our throats


Nightwing should be high street level like Spider-Man, he should sit between batman and superman almost like grayson did.

----------


## adrikito

> *NIGHTWING More Street-Level & Personal With New Creative Team*
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/37513-nigh...ard-chang.html


THANK YOU... 

With Bendis in DC, I was worried thinking that Humpries(his new writer) now could be replaced for Bendis, because I heard the street level,  Fortunatelly I was wrong... I forgot that Humpries mentioned that previously...

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Judge is a generic name, Flashbacks and Street Level seems like Nightwing is never going to push himself to do anything new or interesting

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Judge is a generic name, Flashbacks and Street Level seems like Nightwing is never going to push himself to do anything new or interesting


Neither was Raptor, Tiger, Nightwing, or Superman. We need to see the character more to really know what he's about. 

And imo, getting to see Dick in his days as a Teen Titan in the main Nightwing book is something we haven't had in nearly a decade, and that's not getting into how long it's been since we saw college student Dick. That _is_ something interesting and new to me, at least. I like Dick for Dick, not for whatever Titans story he was in that let him show off how cool he was when he fought aliens or something. 

I'm not saying this story is going to be great, we really don't know, but isn't it premature to say this run won't amount to much? Like, I'm not happy with this book sticking to being street-level either, but the main Nightwing book has never gone above street-level, it's only been like Morrison's DickBats and SeeKing's Grayson that did stuff like that. Seeing Dick take on bigger threats was the draw to whatever team book he was starring in. I don't want to shift all the blame to the Titans book, but as far as what I expect out of both books, only one of them is lacking here. 

But I won't say I'm not hoping we get someone post-Doomsday Clock that wants to tell crazier stories, cosmic or dimension-hopping stories would be super fun for a character like Dick.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Titans haven’t even fought villains comparable to Nightwing level in this Rebirth run and are just doing the same rehash Of Wally West Power problems, Donna Troy Memory problems, and 60’s hang outs. It’s now just about larger threats but actually doing something more interesting then a villain from the past who had some emotional connection which is the standard way to introduce characters now. It Joker/Batman was written today then Bruce and Jack would go way back and had some falling out causing their conflicts instead of them just meeting and developing a rivalry. Traveling around the world should not be seen as an issue for Nightwing or going to Skartaris, Gemworld etc. because these aren’t immediate Justice League things.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Attachment 58376
> Thougth that it would be proper to put this one here, Bruce has a picture of the time that all the male Robins came to his home


When did tim live with Bruce?

----------


## TheCape

> When did tim live with Bruce?


When his father was in a coma and post Infinite Crisis period.

----------


## byrd156

> What are your opinions if Earth One: Robin happens?
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcAA8ydBOfa/


It would be nice for some actual progress in the Earth One stories. I always want to see more Dick Grayson stories so its a yes for me. I just recently bought both Superman and Batman Earth One. I really enjoyed Superman EO, it felt like what Man of Steel should've been and Batman EO wasn't bad but it felt lacking to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> When his father was in a coma and post Infinite Crisis period.


In the new 52

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Good point by Grayson TDH, 

A lot of my issues with the Nightwing solo are actually more issues with the Titans book

----------


## nightbird

*A Nightwing Before Christmas: an interview with Sam Humphries*

https://batman-news.com/2017/11/27/a...sam-humphries/

----------


## Alycat

> *A Nightwing Before Christmas: an interview with Sam Humphries*
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/11/27/a...sam-humphries/


omfg. We are never leaving this terrible boring city. Street level Nightwing has been the worst part about him so far.

----------


## Avi

Well, they forced Blüdhaven back for a reason... 
I like that Humphries embraces the Vegas side of Blüdhaven but all his talk about how the Guppy and supporting character #2 are characters who could not be from anywhere but Blüdhaven makes it just more obvious that Dick needs to have a real reason for being there. It'll be interesting to see if Humphries can deliver in that regard.
The whole new crew makes me worried about the Runaways...

----------


## Pohzee

> The whole new crew makes me worried about the *Runaways*...


I think this sentence demonstrates all that you need to know about the Run-Offs

----------


## nightbird

> JY: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.  You tweeted the other about how Dick is going to be an entrepreneur, a small business owner.  Anything you can tell us about that?
> 
> SH: Uhh, I’m gonna let that be a surprise for the first issue.  I will say that we were kicking around some ideas and it was something that editor Chris Conroy came up with, and he was like “you don’t have to do that one” and immediately I said “no, that’s exactly what I’m doing.”  And I think when people see it, they’re going to laugh but they’re also going to love it because it’s a perfect thing for Dick to do.  It’s just a perfect thing for him and a great… you know, there are great stories that come out of these competing impulses.  “I need to be a superhero, but I also need to do my job,” you know.  And that’s the angle we get from Dick’s new business.


Is it strange that I have no idea what business Dick can even own?

----------


## Godlike13

Probably a gymnastics gym. Though I hope not.

----------


## nightbird

> Probably a gymnastics gym. Though I hope not.


Dick owning gym would not make me “laugh” though...

----------


## Pohzee

He’ll sell himself...

As a superhero (obviously). Like Rent-a-Bat. 

I think it would work both with Humphries’s take on Dick as a guy who has no life outside of the costume and also would highlight an anarco-capitalist side of Blüdhaven where the wealthy hire vigilante protection with money from their casinos. It would create a conflict of loyalty between Dick’s innate desire to help the less fortunate and a need to satisfy his employers.

----------


## Godlike13

Ooh, maybe he opens his own casino.

----------


## TheCape

> He’ll sell himself...
> 
> As a superhero (obviously). Like Rent-a-Bat.*
> 
> I think it would work both with Humphries’s take on Dick as a guy who has no life outside of the costume and also would highlight an anarco-capitalist side of Blüdhaven where the wealthy hire vigilante protection with money from their casinos. It would create a conflict of loyalty between Dick’s innate desire to help the less fortunate and a need to satisfy his employers.


I like this idea a lot.

----------


## Frontier

> He’ll sell himself...
> 
> As a superhero (obviously). Like Rent-a-Bat. 
> 
> I think it would work both with Humphries’s take on Dick as a guy who has no life outside of the costume and also would highlight an anarco-capitalist side of Blüdhaven where the wealthy hire vigilante protection with money from their casinos. It would create a conflict of loyalty between Dick’s innate desire to help the less fortunate and a need to satisfy his employers.


I...could live with this  :Smile: .

----------


## Pohzee

> Probably a gymnastics gym. Though I hope not.


I guarantee that’d wind up Haley’s Circus 2.0

It’d be pretty funny if he opened up a Batman merch shop. I’m definitely pooling for something superhero related.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm less than excited about Humphries. But I'm beyond excited about Chang being the Nightwing artist. Holy hell that's a good choice.

----------


## Badou

My guess is they will try to make him a cop again, but since he can't be a cop atm they will just go the private detective route. Make him closer to Daredevil as they can. Although that isn't really "funny" unless they just have him get involved in super dumb cases where they are making fun of it. 

Just as long as it isn't a gymnastics gym. It is probably the most uninspiring thing you can do with the character. "Oh, he is from the circus, that means he should teach gymnastics!". 




> Hell sell himself...
> 
> As a superhero (obviously). Like Rent-a-Bat. 
> 
> I think it would work both with Humphriess take on Dick as a guy who has no life outside of the costume and also would highlight an anarco-capitalist side of Blüdhaven where the wealthy hire vigilante protection with money from their casinos. It would create a conflict of loyalty between Dicks innate desire to help the less fortunate and a need to satisfy his employers.


I don't really see Dick as being someone that would want to put a price tag on being a hero, or be hired muscle. That would be too constricting for him, but I dunno.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I don’t much care for the idea of Dick selling his services as a superhero. Though maybe I could live with it if he charged the Titans for having to be there.

----------


## nightbird

> Hell sell himself...
> 
> As a superhero (obviously). Like Rent-a-Bat. 
> 
> I think it would work both with Humphriess take on Dick as a guy who has no life outside of the costume and also would highlight an anarco-capitalist side of Blüdhaven where the wealthy hire vigilante protection with money from their casinos. It would create a conflict of loyalty between Dicks innate desire to help the less fortunate and a need to satisfy his employers.


I doubt Dick would be happy to downgrade himself to some kind of mercenary and turn his back on beliefs that being super-hero is altruistic in nature.

----------


## Pohzee

> I doubt Dick would be happy to downgrade himself to some kind of mercenary and turn his back on beliefs that being super-hero is altruistic in nature.


Does an artist who receives payment for their work compromise their artistic integrity? If being paid to be a superhero allows him to be a superhero full time, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. No less helpful than working another job like a bartender or curator, where he is not able to help people for hours at a time because he needs to pay his bills.

----------


## Godlike13

That's not really the same thing.

----------


## nightbird

> Does an artist who receives payment for their work compromise their artistic integrity? If being paid to be a superhero allows him to be a superhero full time, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. No less helpful than working another job like a bartender or curator, where he is not able to help people for hours at a time because he needs to pay his bills.


 We both know nothing good will come from him working as superhero for hire. Sooner or later it will compromise him. Dick deals with law, criminals and cops (artists free from that unless they copy works and sell them), so him taking money from individual parties would look shady (for others) nonetheless.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s009.***********/i310/1711/24/0b956a3b30ff.jpg[/IMG]
by Gabriel Picolo

----------


## Ascended

> Does an artist who receives payment for their work compromise their artistic integrity? If being paid to be a superhero allows him to be a superhero full time, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. No less helpful than working another job like a bartender or curator, where he is not able to help people for hours at a time because he needs to pay his bills.


Yeah, there's a difference there.

First off, yes, an artist who accepts a design job is sacrificing his artistic vision for the benefit of his employer. He or she is painting what the employer wants, not what the artist wants. I used to work in design and that was a hard truth to accept. But the artist has other avenues to pursue his or her own vision. Taking a job at a marketing firm does not prevent the artist from creating their own work, for example.

Dick becoming a mercenary means that he is directing his "art" for the benefit of an employer....but unlike the artist, he can easily be compromised. Yes, he could "moonlight" as a pro bono superhero, just as the artist can paint in their spare time. But in Dick's case, protecting the interests of his employer could easily mean ignoring the interests of innocent third parties. What if, during the next crisis event, Dick is desperately needed in Central City but his employer demands he stay on-site in Bludhaven? The employer relies on Nightwing to protect them and Dick has agreed to that. Is he supposed to abandon the people he agreed to take care of and go to Central City? Or does he stay and leave Central to its fate?

With the artist, the worst case scenario is they sign an exclusive deal, meaning other companies can't benefit from the artist's talent. In Dick's case, it means he is limited in who's life he can save. 

Now, if someone were willing to just fund Nightwing, no strings or expectations attached.....that'd be another matter.

----------


## Badou

The problem with all this is that if Dick wants to be a hero full time and do nothing but that he can. Nothing is stopping him as he has no other responsibilities, and he can also do that without need to earn an income from it. He has unlimited funding and resources from Bruce if he wants it (writers usually have him not wanting any of Bruce's handouts) or he can operate out of Titans Tower and become a full time hero like most of the other Titans. I mean the Titans seem to have unlimited resources too as they just put up a giant Tower in NYC like it was nothing. So writers have to basically write out or write around these reasons and try to act like he is struggling to just get by because that is just how it is supposed to be while he is in Bludhaven and for most solo heroes in the mold of Daredevil or Spider-man.

----------


## oasis1313

He could be a very expensive male prostitute.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i505/1711/6e/7d33c50b2f6e.png[/IMG]
http://pirate-cashoo.tumblr.com/post/167990421070

----------


## ross61

Can't fucking wait for Humphries and Chang Nightwing run. He's saying all the right things and that Chang art looks gorgeous.

----------


## adrikito

> [img]http://s018.***********/i505/1711/6e/7d33c50b2f6e.png[/img]
> http://pirate-cashoo.tumblr.com/post/167990421070


great fanart

----------


## dietrich

Hey was anyone else aware that Nightwing was featured in the New Talent showcase cos I wasn't

https://www.cbr.com/new-talent-showcase-2017-1/

----------


## yohyoi

> Hey was anyone else aware that Nightwing was featured in the New Talent showcase cos I wasn't
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/new-talent-showcase-2017-1/


Nice find, dude!

Dick's inner Batman is hilarious. Hahahaha! I want my own inner Batman too.

Count Vertigo keeps on losing to Dick; calling him Batman-lite is not helping his villain threat score.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Hey was anyone else aware that Nightwing was featured in the New Talent showcase cos I wasn't
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/new-talent-showcase-2017-1/


I found the hints months ago 😜

----------


## CPSparkles

> I found the hints months ago


You must be a good Detective  :Smile:  In had no idea about this. More spends then.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, there's a difference there.
> 
> First off, yes, an artist who accepts a design job is sacrificing his artistic vision for the benefit of his employer. He or she is painting what the employer wants, not what the artist wants. I used to work in design and that was a hard truth to accept. But the artist has other avenues to pursue his or her own vision. Taking a job at a marketing firm does not prevent the artist from creating their own work, for example.
> 
> Dick becoming a mercenary means that he is directing his "art" for the benefit of an employer....but unlike the artist, he can easily be compromised. Yes, he could "moonlight" as a pro bono superhero, just as the artist can paint in their spare time. But in Dick's case, protecting the interests of his employer could easily mean ignoring the interests of innocent third parties. What if, during the next crisis event, Dick is desperately needed in Central City but his employer demands he stay on-site in Bludhaven? The employer relies on Nightwing to protect them and Dick has agreed to that. Is he supposed to abandon the people he agreed to take care of and go to Central City? Or does he stay and leave Central to its fate?
> 
> With the artist, the worst case scenario is they sign an exclusive deal, meaning other companies can't benefit from the artist's talent. In Dick's case, it means he is limited in who's life he can save. 
> 
> Now, if someone were willing to just fund Nightwing, no strings or expectations attached.....that'd be another matter.


A sugar moma

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s016.***********/i334/1711/14/1dfc9d6a71c6.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/_gabrielpicolo/s...664691201?s=17

----------


## dietrich

Courtesy of TheCape from the Damian thread
Another one bites the dust.

In Green Arrow Red Arrow fantasises about the hotness that is Nightwing

----------


## nightbird

> Courtesy of TheCape from the Damian thread
> Another one bites the dust.
> 
> In Green Arrow Red Arrow fantasises about the hotness that is Nightwing


...those teenage dreams lol

----------


## Alycat

> Courtesy of TheCape from the Damian thread
> Another one bites the dust.
> 
> In Green Arrow Red Arrow fantasises about the hotness that is Nightwing


lmao thats good.

----------


## Godlike13

Poor Damian.

----------


## TheCape

> Poor Damian.


Is difficult to top the big D  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> Is difficult to top the big D


He can learn from him; how to get girls, but not hot how to keep them though.

----------


## adrikito

> Is difficult to top the big D


HAHAHA.. This is true.. 

As I mentioned in his own appreciation, Damian need learning of the master.. Despite he is Damian, he is the boy with Bruce and Talia blood is not one impossible mission..

He needs grow too for appear in adolescents girls dreams..

----------


## Frontier

> Courtesy of TheCape from the Damian thread
> Another one bites the dust.
> 
> In Green Arrow Red Arrow fantasises about the hotness that is Nightwing


I don't think she'd be the first teenage girl Superhero who's had this dream  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> I don't think she'd be the first teenage girl Superhero who's had this dream .


Another case, this time is not a dream... The first time that Steph saw Dick Grayson(In N52) in Batman/Robin Eternal..

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20151014155350

----------


## Rac7d*

Didn't he do this t supergirl too

And lets not forget his fanclub the skullgirls

----------


## Ascended

Lol, that's great.

I don't have the issue handy since it's buried in a box somewhere, but there was that issue of the Titans back in the day where all the female members talk about what their favorite part of Nightwing is. There's a subtext where everyone is in awe of Kori for actually having gotten a taste (Babs and Huntress weren't there).

----------


## adrikito

> Didn't he do this t supergirl too
> 
> And lets not forget his fanclub the skullgirls


Supergirl too? When?

I remember the skullgirls, but they believed that he was gay.. hahahaha..

----------


## Godlike13

Pre-New 52 Supergirl crushed hard.

----------


## nightbird

> Lol, that's great.
> 
> I don't have the issue handy since it's buried in a box somewhere, but there was that issue of the Titans back in the day where all the female members talk about what their favorite part of Nightwing is. There's a subtext where everyone is in awe of Kori for actually having gotten a taste (Babs and Huntress weren't there).


For real? lol

----------


## TheCape

I think than that scene was in JLA/Titans: The Technnis Imperative, issue 3. Is a pretty fun mini.

----------


## nightbird

> I think than that scene was in JLA/Titans: The Technnis Imperative, issue 3. Is a pretty fun mini.


Thank you. I should check it out.

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing #23

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing #23


This kid looks like he needs some Prozac.

----------


## jbmasta

> Supergirl too? When?
> 
> I remember the skullgirls, but they believed that he was gay.. hahahaha..


Reminds me of early in Grayson when Dick's presence at St Hadrians is blown, and his cover is that he's the new gymnastics teacher. Part of his cover is that he's gay, to stop the girls getting ideas.  Minos does not know young women. Or Netz.

----------


## dietrich

> Reminds me of early in Grayson when Dick's presence at St Hadrians is blown, and his cover is that he's the new gymnastics teacher. Part of his cover is that he's gay, to stop the girls getting ideas.  Minos does not know young women. Or Netz.


Oh gosh yeah he was Gay and European  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> This kid looks like he needs some Prozac.


This was at the time when things were crumbling with Shawn

----------


## yohyoi

Let's all be honest. We had a Dick dream from time to time ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

----------


## oasis1313

> This was at the time when things were crumbling with Shawn


He shouldn'g get too upset--he's 'waaaaaay too good for her.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s012.***********/i320/1711/d1/dfe6a13d9f93.jpg[/IMG]

Apparently Dick has the whole inner Batfamily in his head lol

----------


## Red obin

wow, 1200 pages of love for Nightwing!

EDIT: Dammit 1201 now :Stick Out Tongue: 

Been liking his solo recently and it always exceeds my expectations. Can't wait for Guppy!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing #23


Is he modeling again
Why does he keep getting younger geez he should be 24, or is he just that pretty

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> [IMG]http://s012.***********/i320/1711/d1/dfe6a13d9f93.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Apparently Dick has the whole inner Batfamily in his head lol


Everyone but Jason. I thought it was weird that he has Batwoman but not Jason.

----------


## RedQueen

> Everyone but Jason. I thought it was weird that he has Batwoman but not Jason.


Yeah, I don't view Batwoman and Dick as very influential in each other's lives, so her being there was weird over jason or even being there period.

----------


## nightbird

> Everyone but Jason. I thought it was weird that he has Batwoman but not Jason.


Jason, as always, is late to the party lol

For some reasons it's easier to imagine Batwoman as "voice of reason" in Dick's head than Jason, even if they're not that close.

----------


## Alycat

Has Dick said more than a few sentences to Kate since the N52 or Rebirth? heck he's talked to Jason s much or even more than Tim at this point.

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s012.***********/i320/1711/d1/dfe6a13d9f93.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Apparently Dick has the whole inner Batfamily in his head lol


This was such an enjoyable tale. I can't believe I nearly missed it. If only DC was actually committed to giving us the family. This felt a bit hollow because of the current state of the family

----------


## oasis1313

> This was such an enjoyable tale. I can't believe I nearly missed it. If only DC was actually committed to giving us the family. This felt a bit hollow because of the current state of the family


People love the family aspect. A Nightwing/Robin book would sell like hotcakes.

----------


## TheCape

14a6668b8cdfc2d1382089840477.jpg
Big bro Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

Someone needs to tell Jason to put that cigarette out. 

Everybody knows the edgy kids _vape_ nowadays!

----------


## oasis1313

> 14a6668b8cdfc2d1382089840477.jpg
> Big bro Nightwing.


This is adorable.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #36 Var. Cover by Yasmine Putri


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...cesco-mattina/

First, Raptor. Now, Judge. The amount of stalker villains is closely reaching Bat levels.

----------


## Godlike13

> First, Raptor. Now, Judge. The amount of stalker villains is closely reaching Bat levels.


I was thinking that too, lol.

----------


## Barbatos666

Well atleast Dick has his own rogues gallery in the Batfamily, the rest really dont. Jason has none, Tim had King Snake years ago, Catwoman has none and so on.

----------


## yohyoi

> Well atleast Dick has his own rogues gallery in the Batfamily, the rest really dont. Jason has none, Tim had King Snake years ago, Catwoman has none and so on.


They need to get a solo book and get out of Gotham first. Jason being stuck with the Outlaws, which is a less popular Suicide Squad, really weights him down. He has a lot of solo storytelling potential.

Babs Batgirl have some unique villains. Too bad they are either teen villain of the week or more forgettable than Dick's B-list villains.

----------


## Caivu

> For some reasons it's easier to imagine Batwoman as "voice of reason" in Dick's head than Jason, even if they're not that close.


That's what I thought, too. Kate's for the most part pretty practical, and he was "hearing" that kind of advice from her.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is ANIMEFIED!!! He looks like Sasuke. Tim/Red Robin has better outfit in anime compared to the comics (LOL). Let's not talk about Damian and Jason...


https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...elease/.124713

----------


## yohyoi

Looks like Dick is using Rattan Sticks. Quite old school compared to his polymer/manufactured escrima sticks.

----------


## byrd156

> Everyone but Jason. I thought it was weird that he has Batwoman but not Jason.


I don't get why Jason would be. I really wish Jason wasn't a part of the official bat family, him being close to any of them just doesn't work.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick is ANIMEFIED!!! He looks like Sasuke. Tim/Red Robin has better outfit in anime compared to the comics (LOL). Let's not talk about Damian and Jason...
> 
> 
> https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...elease/.124713


Dick still looking hot.
Tim's hair looks amazing
Damian's hair is funny [like a balding old man] but since it's the haircut a young heir
Babs looks good as well. love her outfit

My biggest issue is that Damian is smiling.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Dick still looking hot.
> Tim's hair looks amazing
> Damian's hair is funny [like a balding old man] but since it's the haircut a young heir
> Babs looks good as well. love her outfit
> 
> My biggest issue is that Damian is smiling.


That's actually Catwoman. In the trailer when she's fighting Harley Quinn you can see the paw prints on her boot-soles and sleeves. 

Maybe Babs is Catwoman in the anime?

(personally I'm just wondering what seems to be Gorilla Grodd is doing in the Batman anime)

(also lets spin Dick off into a harem anime, cause why not?)

----------


## nightbird

So Batman is ninja or samurai?
I didn’t expect Tim and Dick survive (style wise) out of all characters.

----------


## dietrich

> So Batman is ninja or samurai?


He does look more like a Samurai here but in the trailer he gets rid of the gear and his moves become more Ninja so SamuraiNinja  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Barbatos666

Would've paired Dick with Deathstroke, Tim with Penguin, Damian with Harley and Jason with Two-Face personally but no biggie. Wonder why they used Grodd.

----------


## nightbird

> He does look more like a Samurai here but in the trailer he gets rid of the gear and his moves become more Ninja so SamuraiNinja


Acts like a samurai, fights like a ninja. Somehow it suits even Bats from comics =)

----------


## Fergus

> Dick is ANIMEFIED!!! He looks like Sasuke. Tim/Red Robin has better outfit in anime compared to the comics (LOL). Let's not talk about Damian and Jason...
> 
> 
> https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...elease/.124713


Dick looks a bit chubby but at least he isn't bald or wearing a basket on his head

Damian here is clearly a cross between Dick and Damian. Look at the boots, the smile , the mask and even the run is all RobinDick

----------


## nightbird

I feel like anime show about Robin’s would’ve done well in Japan.

----------


## Fergus

> I feel like anime show about Robin’s would’ve done well in Japan.


Judging buy the fan art, fanzine and unofficial merchandise they do love the over there. I'm just happy for this gem. Dick and Damian animated by the Kill la Kill dude is an impossible dream come true.

----------


## nightbird

> Judging buy the fan art, fanzine and unofficial merchandise they do love the over there. I'm just happy for this gem. Dick and Damian animated by the Kill la Kill dude is an impossible dream come true.


It’s strange (or maybe not)  that DC never really tried to capitalize on all Robins popularity by putting them together in something as main protagonists.

----------


## nightbird

> That's what I thought, too. Kate's for the most part pretty practical, and he was "hearing" that kind of advice from her.


I would love to see Dick and Kate having more big sis-little bro moments together. I feel like it could be an interesting dynamic between them.

----------


## adrikito

> Dick is ANIMEFIED!!! He looks like Sasuke. Tim/Red Robin has better outfit in anime compared to the comics (LOL). Let's not talk about Damian and Jason...
> 
> 
> https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...elease/.124713


I don´t like Damian hair..  But this is worst for Jason..

----------


## adrikito

nightwing chrissmas.jpg

https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...14805565612033

----------


## Pohzee

> I would love to see Dick and Kate having more big sis-little bro moments together. I feel like it could be an interesting dynamic between them.


Fuck that. I don’t need Dick condescended by Kate. Dick is 60 years older than Kate. _He_ was the one who welcomed _her_ into the Batfamily as Nightwing, at which point he had already repeated saved the world by leading his generation of heroes. I don’t care what the current continuity or status quo is established by the wanking in the current run of Detective Comics. Kate may have a consistently stronger publication history, but I would hesitate to  call them equals.

----------


## CPSparkles

> So Batman is ninja or samurai?
> I didnt expect Tim and Dick survive (style wise) out of all characters.


I wish they would put more thought or take more risk with Dick though. He's always so safe I don't want him with funny hair or a basket but I would like some bold experimentation. Damian and Jason I'm not too keen on how far they've gone but you know what those two are the ones the net is talking about.

----------


## CPSparkles

> nightwing chrissmas.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/samhumphries/sta...14805565612033


What is this? Is this open to the public? Americans have all the luck when it comes to pecks like these.

----------


## dietrich

> I wish they would put more thought or take more risk with Dick though. He's always so safe I don't want him with funny hair or a basket but I would like some bold experimentation. Damian and Jason I'm not too keen on how far they've gone but you know what those two are the ones the net is talking about.


You normally want consistency across mediums I thought you'd be pleased.

----------


## CPSparkles

> You normally want consistency across mediums I thought you'd be pleased.


Yeah but they travel back to to ancient Japan in this so consistency is out the window.  Even if we are talking consistency Jason's design has the most thought put into when it comes to staying true to what the character is about. They really thought about who the character is re imagined him in a way that jells with the culture same with Damian in recognising him as a Lords son.

Maybe the movie will prove me wrong and maybe there are no Nightwing equivalents in Ninja culture.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Fuck that. I don’t need Dick condescended by Kate. Dick is 60 years older than Kate. _He_ was the one who welcomed _her_ into the Batfamily as Nightwing, at which point he had already repeated saved the world by leading his generation of heroes. I don’t care what the current continuity or status quo is established by the wanking in the current run of Detective Comics. Kate may have a consistently stronger publication history, but I would hesitate to  call them equals.


Right, The Bat Family IS to big and as a Nightwing fan I don’t need him to have this retcon Big sis/lil bro relationship. Nightwing already has enough close friends and people to lean on it’s just an editorial beef with the Titans and making him the Batman Of Bludhaven that prevents him from having a secure setting. Nightwing without any editorial constraints should be the one giving her advice.

----------


## nightbird

> Fuck that. I don’t need Dick condescended by Kate. Dick is 60 years older than Kate. _He_ was the one who welcomed _her_ into the Batfamily as Nightwing, at which point he had already repeated saved the world by leading his generation of heroes. I don’t care what the current continuity or status quo is established by the wanking in the current run of Detective Comics. Kate may have a consistently stronger publication history, but I would hesitate to  call them equals.


Who talked about wanting her patronize him in their work field? I talked about their personal relationship inside Batfamily. She is still older than him and his relationship with others mostly big bro to little kids.

----------


## nightbird

> Right, The Bat Family IS to big and as a Nightwing fan I don’t need him to have this retcon Big sis/lil bro relationship. Nightwing already has enough close friends and people to lean on it’s just an editorial beef with the Titans and making him the Batman Of Bludhaven that prevents him from having a secure setting. Nightwing without any editorial constraints should be the one giving her advice.


Yeah, let’s stop Dick Grayson, who used to be known as person with a lot of connections in the past continuity (and didn’t recover from that yet), from forming proper relationships with all Batfamily members and establish his position inside family/universe, because apparently “he has enough people around him”.

----------


## Pohzee

> Who talked about wanting her patronize him in their work field? I talked about their personal relationship inside Batfamily. She is still older than him and his relationship with others mostly big bro to little kids.


1.) Describing Kate as his "big sis" implies a relationship in which she is more experienced and nurturing Dick. There is a reason that an organization that provides younger children with supportive relationships with older mentors to foster their development is called "Big Brothers Big Sisters of America."

2.) If we want to be technical, she's closer to his second cousin.

3.) The entire "Bat-Family" does not need a familial relationship. I am perfectly fine with Dick having a solely professional relationship with some members of Batman's allies. In fact, I think that it enhances the dynamics of the group if they aren't one big lovey family.

----------


## WonderNight

> Who talked about wanting her patronize him in their work field? I talked about their personal relationship inside Batfamily. She is still older than him and his relationship with others mostly big bro to little kids.


yea with the batfam being so big this is the perfect time to let his wings out more. I want to see dick in interact with superman and wonder woman alot more, I believe he should be close the all 3 of the trinity with wally and jessica as his Flash/GL. dick needs some characters (outside of the batfam) with there own books so he can start guest staring and having crossovers with because none of the titans gives him this.

P.S what are you guys and gals current top 10 nightwing rouges?

----------


## Pohzee

> P.S what are you guys and gals current top 10 nightwing rouges?


He has 10 memorable rouges?

1. Raptor
2. Deathstroke (Does he even count?)
3.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Fuck that. I don’t need Dick condescended by Kate. Dick is 60 years older than Kate. _He_ was the one who welcomed _her_ into the Batfamily as Nightwing, at which point he had already repeated saved the world by leading his generation of heroes. I don’t care what the current continuity or status quo is established by the wanking in the current run of Detective Comics. Kate may have a consistently stronger publication history, but I would hesitate to  call them equals.


They are not equals by an measure no matter what current continuity might try to claim but I do like them interacting. As a voice of reason in his head while I don't exactly buy it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> yea with the batfam being so big this is the perfect time to let his wings out more. I want to see dick in interact with superman and wonder woman alot more, I believe he should be close the all 3 of the trinity with wally and jessica as his Flash/GL. dick needs some characters (outside of the batfam) with there own books so he can start guest staring and having crossovers with because none of the titans gives him this.
> 
> P.S what are you guys and gals current top 10 nightwing rouges?


Raptor
Pyg
Hurt [yes he is a Nightwing rouge fight me]
Owls
BlockBuster
Minos [I know technically dead but don't buy it]

----------


## nightbird

> 1.) Describing Kate as his "big sis" implies a relationship in which she is more experienced and nurturing Dick. There is a reason that an organization that provides younger children with supportive relationships with older mentors to foster their development is called "Big Brothers Big Sisters of America."
> 
> 2.) If we want to be technical, she's closer to his second cousin.
> 
> 3.) The entire "Bat-Family" does not need a familial relationship. I am perfectly fine with Dick having a solely professional relationship with some members of Batman's allies. In fact, I think that it enhances the dynamics of the group if they aren't one big lovey family.


She is what in her late 20’s early 30’s now? So around a decade older than him? In my understanding you still can be superior when it comes to work, but have diffirent dynamic on personal level. Nothing close to mentor-mentee or “nutriring someone less experienced than you in life or work”. What I think how you imagine that dynamic is just vastly diffirent from how I imagine it. Because in my imagination their relationship should be something like a (close) friends with big age gap. don’t know, maybe “big sis-little bro” wasn’t a right way to describe it in English, but I couldn’t think of any other way to explain what I think their overall relationship should be in Batfamily. 
And I still believe, that Dick, out of all Batfamily members, should be somehow close (or at least have decent relationship) with all Batfamily members.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah but they travel back to to ancient Japan in this so consistency is out the window.  Even if we are talking consistency Jason's design has the most thought put into when it comes to staying true to what the character is about. They really thought about who the character is re imagined him in a way that jells with the culture same with Damian in recognising him as a Lords son.
> 
> Maybe the movie will prove me wrong and maybe there are no Nightwing equivalents in Ninja culture.


Yup, for those who came in late.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komus%C5%8D

It`s _perfect_ and by far the most original and balsy character design here because they went less with "cool" or too close to home and more to what his feudal concept would be. Plus, _spinning_ guns, man. Spinning guns. Like in the case of Cowboy Bebop, by making it uncool you make it cool by default.

----------


## nightbird

> yea with the batfam being so big this is the perfect time to let his wings out more. I want to see dick in interact with superman and wonder woman alot more, I believe he should be close the all 3 of the trinity with wally and jessica as his Flash/GL. dick needs some characters (outside of the batfam) with there own books so he can start guest staring and having crossovers with because none of the titans gives him this.
> 
> P.S what are you guys and gals current top 10 nightwing rouges?


Well, its not Batbooks or Batoffice fault if even Tomasi didnt make Dick a guest star in something as obvious as Supersons to have some moments with Clark, Lois and Jon.

only from New-52 and just his villians? 
I dont think I will be able to fill all 10 places then.

----------


## Barbatos666

Well Raptor is my favorite Nightwing rogue and then Blockbuster thanks to Seeley admittedly for both. I think Lady Vic and Brutale do have potential as does Mouse. Then there are shared rogues like Pyg,Deathstroke, Court of Owls. I really hope Judge is something special because Humphries is selling his opening act on him.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well, its not Batbooks or Batoffice fault if even Tomasi didnt make Dick a guest star in something as obvious as Supersons to have some moments with Clark, Lois and Jon.
> 
> only from New-52?


I'm bet that Supersons guest spot is coming remember we are only a few issues in and the focus has been on setting up and refining the boys dynamic.

I do agree that Dick's relationship with the greater DCU and the leaguers should be developed. I loved the interaction between him and Ollie in GR and  with Clark in Nightwing.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah Super Sons has only had 2 arcs so far. I expect Nightwing in the fifth or sixth.

----------


## nightbird

> I'm bet that Supersons guest spot is coming remember we are only a few issues in and the focus has been on setting up and refining the boys dynamic.


11 (?) issues is not few, imo, but I actully used it simply as example. If Dick doesn’t appear in more DCU books to establish his relationships outside Batbooks, I don’t think it’s their fault. I actully want Batoffice/books to rebuild a bound inside Batfamily first. We have characters that hardly interacted with each other in Batbooks.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Skimmed through the last few pages so here's my thoughts:

I like Jason being part of the core family in Batman Ninja and in the comics. I'd also be fine if he wasn't involved in these projects, but he's super marketable so why not? I like his current relationship with Dick and the other Robins in Rebirth right now, although I'm fine with considering him part of the outer ring of the Batfam like Kate and Cass. I definitely think Babs should've been included in this over Jason since I consider her more important to the Batfam. But with Bruce and Selina's relationship finally going somewhere for the first time in years, I'm kinda happy with her inclusion. 

And as for Kate, I like that she was the new Batwoman when Dick was the new Batman. It was just really cool and Morrison gave them a cool little team up in his B&R run. It kinda foreshadowed Kathy Kane's return in Incorporated in that way. But the one thing I loved about Bad Blood was that Dick and Kate were actually friends, kinda. Like, she felt like a member of the family. Idk about big sis, but I'm definitely up for more moments between Dick and Kate but that would require Dick and Kate to _actually have a real relationship._ They've never really interacted since the reboot, aside from Monster Men which... let's just not go there. 

Lastly, Dick's Rogues... does he even have 10 worth listing?
1. Raptor
2. Blockbuster
3. Dr. Hurt (I count him)
4. Pyg (I also count him)
5. Deathstroke (This guy, too. I'd list him higher but he's most interesting as a DCU/Titans villain, but he's still pretty decent as a Nightwing one, imo)
6. Mr. Minos
7. Deathwing
8. Tiger Shark... (I'm not even sure I do count this guy, but I like him)
9. Luka Netz (super under-utilized, imo, I liked her a lot and wanted more, hope she reappears one day)
10. Two-Face

That's about it. I mean there's like Shrike and Lady Vic and like Pigeon and stuff, but I don't really think of them as actual "rogues." Although I think I'm pushing it by including Deathstroke, he's an enemy but not a "rogue," but I wanted to include him anyways. And I consider Two-Face as a Robin villain more than a Batman one pretty much, so I included him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well atleast Dick has his own rogues gallery in the Batfamily, the rest really dont. Jason has none, Tim had King Snake years ago, Catwoman has none and so on.


The Untitled?
The Iron Rule? 
Joker?
Joker`s Daugther?
Black Mask? 
New misterious guy who migth be his real father? 

"None" seems far fetched to me.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I don't get why Jason would be. I really wish Jason wasn't a part of the official bat family, him being close to any of them just doesn't work.


It makes more sense than Batwoman though. At least Dick has a deep connection with Jason. He hasn't really interacted with this version of Kate. All I can think of is Night of the monster men

----------


## Aioros22

Not sure how the stories were all planned for the Showcase but with Jason and Duke already having their own story with maybe the reason is simple as that one.

----------


## Barbatos666

> The Untitled?
> The Iron Rule? 
> Joker?
> Joker`s Daugther?
> Black Mask? 
> New misterious guy who migth be his real father? 
> 
> "None" seems far fetched to me.


Black Mask and Joker aren't Jason villains though neither is JD. Who's Iron Rule?
What I meant was that there was no villain that successive writers used or a popular villain.
Dixon era rogues are mostly hokey but they get used, Raptor is reasonably popular among fans already. I haven't seen a villain that is
Unquestionably Jason's
While also being popular
At the same time being a recurring villain.

----------


## Aioros22

Black Mask has been paired against Jason as a main nemesis either as the main Underworld whom Jason takes the Enterprise off or the culmination of the Outlaws in comics and other media (Arkham Knight and Under the Hood). Joker is both a nemesis for Batman and Jason, he`s too deeply engrained in the character and his history not to, again in pretty much all media they both in. In Death of The Family, the only other bat besides Batman whom Joker had a personal tally with was Jay, down to personally considering him a creation of his. 

Iron Rule are cybernetic mercenaries that Jason and Roy dealt with in the RRAA and the Untitled were the first main recurring villains in the Outlaws catalogue whose history was all from Jason`s unique past with the All Caste.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Black Mask has been paired against Jason as a main nemesis either as the main Underworld whom Jason takes the Enterprise off or the culmination of the Outlaws in comics and other media (Arkham Knight and Under the Hood). Joker is both a nemesis for Batman and Jason, he`s too deeply engrained in the character and his history not to, again in pretty much all media they both in. In Death of The Family, the only other bat besides Batman whom Joker had a personal tally with was Jay, down to personally considering him a creation of his. 
> 
> Iron Rule are cybernetic mercenaries that Jason and Roy dealt with in the RRAA and the Untitled were the first main recurring villains in the Outlaws catalogue whose history was all from Jason`s unique past with the All Caste.


Well I dont consider Pyg, Slade and COO Dick villains. Shared villains at best so that same principle holds for Jay imo. BM and Joker have vast publication histories without Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Without sharing, who do you consider Dick`s rogue? Raptor? 

I guess out of the villains created and used in Outlaws, the Untitled and Joker`s Daugther are connected to him the most without being shared around with more significance.

----------


## nightbird

> I wish they would put more thought or take more risk with Dick though. He's always so safe I don't want him with funny hair or a basket but I would like some bold experimentation. Damian and Jason I'm not too keen on how far they've gone but you know what those two are the ones the net is talking about.


Dick is usually the pretty/handsome one, I guess you cant take too much risk with him. So they dressed him and Tim in typical ninja attire.

----------


## nightbird

> Well I dont consider Pyg, Slade and COO Dick villains. Shared villains at best so that same principle holds for Jay imo. BM and Joker have vast publication histories without Jason.


I guess you can count some shared villians as long as villain is motivated to hurt or regularly encounters with hero or something like that. 
Someone like Joker usually only interested in Bats.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

I think James Gordon Jr. is a pretty decent rogue for Dick. Black Mirror is one of my favorite comic books

----------


## Aioros22

The only other person Joker has personal beef with from this side of the angels is Jason. Black Mask was created during Jason`s original run and his personal beef was with the Waynes but in recent years, since UTRH factually, the whole significance of his character shifted to Jason as a personal nemesis. These days you barely consider "War Games" into his ethos but you instantly bring his encounters with Jason. 

KGBeast was created during Jason`s Post Crisis run and in his first meeting with Tim he mentions "that kid" as hating grudge over Jason foiling the militar coup against the President. He`s also faced him again in the Annual but I wouldn`t consider him a rogue. I _would_ consider Deathstroke a Dick rogue since that`s where he debuted and that`s where his first main grudges with the bat-family come from despite becoming a shared villain due to popularity but he keep being a recurring thorn to Grayson.

----------


## Aioros22

Edit: only issue with the Deathstroke bit is that the grudge between the two hasn`t been translated as well as in the comics to other media.

----------


## yohyoi

> Skimmed through the last few pages so here's my thoughts:
> 
> I like Jason being part of the core family in Batman Ninja and in the comics. I'd also be fine if he wasn't involved in these projects, but he's super marketable so why not? I like his current relationship with Dick and the other Robins in Rebirth right now, although I'm fine with considering him part of the outer ring of the Batfam like Kate and Cass. I definitely think Babs should've been included in this over Jason since I consider her more important to the Batfam. But with Bruce and Selina's relationship finally going somewhere for the first time in years, I'm kinda happy with her inclusion. 
> 
> And as for Kate, I like that she was the new Batwoman when Dick was the new Batman. It was just really cool and Morrison gave them a cool little team up in his B&R run. It kinda foreshadowed Kathy Kane's return in Incorporated in that way. But the one thing I loved about Bad Blood was that Dick and Kate were actually friends, kinda. Like, she felt like a member of the family. Idk about big sis, but I'm definitely up for more moments between Dick and Kate but that would require Dick and Kate to _actually have a real relationship._ They've never really interacted since the reboot, aside from Monster Men which... let's just not go there. 
> 
> Lastly, Dick's Rogues... does he even have 10 worth listing?
> 1. Raptor
> 2. Blockbuster
> ...


In the back of my mind, there was Saiko, Nite-Wing, Torque, Prankster, William Cobb and Tarantula. Willam Cobb is the only one really "known" in these group. Maybe Tarantula.

Dick has fought more than a few unique villains. It's too bad they are forgotten or does not exist anymore.

Dick did change his identity multiple times the past decade. This might contributed to him not having a mainstay rogues gallery. Everyone wants to reinvent Dick Grayson.

----------


## Caivu

> I would love to see Dick and Kate having more big sis-little bro moments together. I feel like it could be an interesting dynamic between them.


I would love that, too. It would actually make a lot of sense now, with Dick's Spyral experience and Kate doing black-ops sorta stuff, and with Kate soon going up against Pyg. There's a two-part story there for sure.




> Fuck that. I don’t need Dick condescended by Kate. Dick is 60 years older than Kate. _He_ was the one who welcomed _her_ into the Batfamily as Nightwing, at which point he had already repeated saved the world by leading his generation of heroes. I don’t care what the current continuity or status quo is established by the wanking in the current run of Detective Comics. Kate may have a consistently stronger publication history, but I would hesitate to  call them equals.


Oh settle down, you.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

He's not 60 years older than her _in the context of the story_, so that shouldn't matter at all. Kate's not a character who would (for the most part) give two shits about that sort of thing, anyway.

And there's nothing at all about that setup that would necessitate her "condescending" to him. It'd be, ideally, largely a professional relationship, sorta like the one she's had with Barbara for a while.

Also, it's not "wanking" just because _you_ don't like it. Nothing she's done in Rebirth so far is out of line with her prior established skills.




> She is what in her late 20’s early 30’s now? So around a decade older than him? In my understanding you still can be superior when it comes to work, but have diffirent dynamic on personal level. Nothing close to mentor-mentee or “nutriring someone less experienced than you in life or work”. What I think how you imagine that dynamic is just vastly diffirent from how I imagine it. Because in my imagination their relationship should be something like a (close) friends with big age gap. don’t know, maybe “big sis-little bro” wasn’t a right way to describe it in English, but I couldn’t think of any other way to explain what I think their overall relationship should be in Batfamily.


This, exactly this.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s015.***********/i332/1712/0c/8b13bd04c84a.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s008.***********/i306/1712/19/59158423565d.png[/IMG]

Dick and Bruce 
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...oderately-more

----------


## Pohzee

> He's not 60 years older than her _in the context of the story_, so that shouldn't matter at all. Kate's not a character who would (for the most part) give two shits about that sort of thing, anyway.
> 
> And there's nothing at all about that setup that would necessitate her "condescending" to him. It'd be, ideally, largely a professional relationship, sorta like the one she's had with Barbara for a while.


To clarify: I have no issue with Dick and Kate interacting or having a working relationship. I enjoyed their interactions in Batman and Robin well enough and wouldn't mind an interaction like you described above. I have no desire to see them in a "big sister/little brother" relationship, or a familial relationship of any kind.




> Also, it's not "wanking" just because _you_ don't like it. Nothing she's done in Rebirth so far is out of line with her prior established skills.


I wasn't talking about capability, but rather place within the hierarchy of the "Batfamily." But I'd rather not continue that discussion.

----------


## Caivu

> To clarify: I have no issue with Dick and Kate interacting or having a working relationship. I enjoyed their interactions in Batman and Robin well enough and wouldn't mind an interaction like you described above. I have no desire to see them in a "big sister/little brother" relationship, or a familial relationship of any kind.


Well... no one has really been talking about that sort of a thing here. So, agreed... I guess?




> I wasn't talking about capability, but rather place within the hierarchy of the "Batfamily." But I'd rather not continue that discussion.


Okay, that's also not really a thing if I'm understanding you correctly. There _isn't_ a hierarchy that I'm aware of, aside from Batman being at the top. Apart from the very newest members, the rest is vague at best.

----------


## Pohzee

> Well... no one has really been talking about that sort of a thing here. So, agreed... I guess?


It was specifically mentioned in the post that I replied to.




> Okay, that's also not really a thing if I'm understanding you correctly. There _isn't_ a hierarchy that I'm aware of, aside from Batman being at the top. Apart from the very newest members, the rest is vague at best.


I think Kate works better operating as an outsider rather than as the co-leader of Batman's team of teenagers, but that's just me.

----------


## Caivu

> It was specifically mentioned in the post that I replied to.


Yes, and it was later clarified:




> Because in my imagination their relationship should be something like a (close) friends with big age gap. don’t know, maybe “big sis-little bro” wasn’t a right way to describe it in English, but I couldn’t think of any other way to explain what I think their overall relationship should be in Batfamily.







> I think Kate works better operating as an outsider rather than as the co-leader of Batman's team of teenagers, but that's just me.


That's ignoring a big part of the character development she got in her New 52 series, though. A major theme of that run was that working in isolation like she'd been doing was harmful to both her and those she was closest to, and she grew out of that. Almost all her other New 52 appearances outside her own series support this as well.

(If you want to continue this, we can head over to Kate's thread, since this has probably drifted enough)

----------


## Pohzee

> Yes, and it was later clarified:


But after the quote that you responded to was posted, which is why I mentioned it.




> (If you want to continue this, we can head over to Kate's thread, since this has probably drifted enough)


I’d rather not  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

> I would love that, too. It would actually make a lot of sense now, with Dick's Spyral experience and Kate doing black-ops sorta stuff, and with Kate soon going up against Pyg. There's a two-part story there for sure.


Imo, It would be nice to see them team up (in the future).

----------


## Caivu

> I’d rather not


I accept your concession, then.




> Imo, It would be nice to see them team up (in the future).


For sure. Part of that could even be re-establishing Dick's crush on her, which would be fun.

----------


## nightbird

> For sure. Part of that could even be re-establishing Dick's crush on her, which would be fun.


Here I disagree you =) I want super-platonic friendship between them. Nothing against Kate, she is awesome, but I just don't want Dick to have crush on both Batgirl and Batwoman, even for brief period. It's just a little something that personally irks me.

----------


## nightbird

[img]http://s02.***********/i175/1712/8c/7a4a9bf661e6.gif[/img]

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i637/1712/29/dad3f17b17cc.png[/IMG]

Dick and Dami, Lone Wolf and Cub manga parody 
https://zatotubu.tumblr.com/post/168...and-cub-parody

----------


## CPSparkles

> Black Mask has been paired against Jason as a main nemesis either as the main Underworld whom Jason takes the Enterprise off or the culmination of the Outlaws in comics and other media (Arkham Knight and Under the Hood). Joker is both a nemesis for Batman and Jason, he`s too deeply engrained in the character and his history not to, again in pretty much all media they both in. In Death of The Family, the only other bat besides Batman whom Joker had a personal tally with was Jay, down to personally considering him a creation of his. 
> 
> Iron Rule are cybernetic mercenaries that Jason and Roy dealt with in the RRAA and the Untitled were the first main recurring villains in the Outlaws catalogue whose history was all from Jason`s unique past with the All Caste.


Joker isn't a Jason rogue he is deeply engrained with the character because Joker used him as a means to get to his target Batman. Is that Lobdell retcon about Jason being a creation of the Joker still even effect?

Joker has personal beef with Duke and is deeply engrained  with the character both by being the catalyst that set him down his hero path and being the one to name him doesn't mean he is a Duke rouge.

Isn't Black mask more of a Catwoman villian?

----------


## CPSparkles

> [img]http://s02.***********/i175/1712/8c/7a4a9bf661e6.gif[/img]
> 
> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i637/1712/29/dad3f17b17cc.png[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Dami, Lone Wolf And Cub manga parody 
> https://zatotubu.tumblr.com/post/168...and-cub-parody


Nice. I have to check this manga out.

----------


## nightbird

> Nice. I have to check this manga out.


It's popular, but super old manga though

----------


## CPSparkles

> It's popular, but super old manga though


Has it got an anime series attached? because that would be easier to track down.

----------


## nightbird

> Has it got an anime series attached? because that would be easier to track down.


I'm not sure about anime, but I saw live-action TV show and I believe movies also exist.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'm not sure about anime, but I saw live-action TV show and I believe movies also exist.


Thanks I'll try and seek it out. It seems to be well known so I feel like I missed something good.

----------


## KC

Brenton Thwaites as Robin.

http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/

----------


## godisawesome

Not confirmed yet, but...

Brenton Thwaites as Robin in Titans:
image.jpg
Edit: dagnabit, beat to the punch!

----------


## Aioros22

> Joker isn't a Jason rogue he is deeply engrained with the character because Joker used him as a means to get to his target Batman. Is that Lobdell retcon about Jason being a creation of the Joker still even effect?
> 
> Joker has personal beef with Duke and is deeply engrained  with the character both by being the catalyst that set him down his hero path and being the one to name him doesn't mean he is a Duke rouge.
> 
> Isn't Black mask more of a Catwoman villian?


He isn`t a Duke rogue because he doesn`t haunt Duke the way he repeteadly haunts Jason and it`s not only under Loedbell that Joker has felt something unique to Jason besides Bruce. 

Catwoman? I`d be hard press to think anyone would instantly make the connection between the two. The modern Mask has been Jason`s nemesis in comics and outside of it, including a full animated release and a video game. He`s been pitted against him, on a _personal_ level, more than anyone else in recent years.

----------


## KC

I think he looks awesome. It looks like a good, modern live-action version of the Robin suit. 

Although, I am surprised that Brenton Thwaites is playing Dick as Robin instead of Nightwing. But I am not complaining because I love Dick as Robin.

----------


## dan12456

Damn that looks amazing. First time I've actually been hyped for this show.

----------


## godisawesome

> I think he looks awesome. It looks like a good, modern live-action version of the Robin suit. 
> 
> Although, I am surprised that Brenton Thwaites is playing Dick as Robin instead of Nightwing. But I am not complaining because I love Dick as Robin.


Since TV shows have a finite existance and most premium TV shows embrace chronological progression, I presume he'll grow to be Nightwing, probably at a finale point. If it was me, I'd have Deathstroke beta him and break his staff, than Dick keeps the pieces, changes suits, and becomes Nightwing.

And since its me, around season 3 he starts doing some productive therapy for the death of a brother by training a nerdish amateur detective in his old weapon...

----------


## Aioros22

Wouldn`t that be a New52 sort of timeline, thought  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KC

> Since TV shows have a finite existance and most premium TV shows embrace chronological progression, I presume he'll grow to be Nightwing, probably at a finale point. If it was me, I'd have Deathstroke beta him and break his staff, than Dick keeps the pieces, changes suits, and becomes Nightwing.
> 
> And since its me, around season 3 he starts doing some productive therapy for the death of a brother by training a nerdish amateur detective in his old weapon...


I could see him changing roles as the show progresses and I think it could serve as an interesting character arc for Dick. 

I thought that the showrunners might be too embarrassed to put Robin in the show. I am glad that they are not.

----------


## Aioros22

They can`t pretend fans don`t want to see it forever, especially since the source material has upgraded immensily the robin oufits to look as modern as Batman nowadays.

----------


## Badou

Costume looks pretty good. I wonder what it will look like in action though. Also I wonder how old the character is supposed to be. The actor is 28 I think, but he can pull off looking younger than that I suppose. 




> Since TV shows have a finite existance and most premium TV shows embrace chronological progression, I presume he'll grow to be Nightwing, probably at a finale point. If it was me, I'd have Deathstroke beta him and break his staff, than Dick keeps the pieces, changes suits, and becomes Nightwing.
> 
> And since its me, around season 3 he starts doing some productive therapy for the death of a brother by training a nerdish amateur detective in his old weapon...


I'd be surprised if they use Deathstroke. Since they have the one from the Arrow universe they use and they have the DCEU one that is slated to get a solo movie by the Raid director. I can't see them casting a 3rd actor to play Deathstroke, even if he is originally a rogue for the Titans, lol.

----------


## Ascended

> Costume looks pretty good. I wonder what it will look like in action though. Also I wonder how old the character is supposed to be. The actor is 28 I think, but he can pull off looking younger than that I suppose.


For a tv budget it looks solid.

Are we certain the actor is playing Robin and not Nightwing? This costume could be limited to flashback scenes.

----------


## byrd156

> Not confirmed yet, but...
> 
> Brenton Thwaites as Robin in Titans:
> Attachment 58615
> Edit: dagnabit, beat to the punch!


Damn that looks good of what we can see, not a fan of Dick having a stylized R but that seems like the current trend for his Robin redesigns.

----------


## Alycat

Huh, the costume looks pretty nice.Cautiously optimistic.

----------


## thefiresky

this looks like a terrible cosplay...

----------


## thefiresky

I'm so bummed about this. This literally looks like a cosplay and the cloud background and his posture just scream as a show "we have no idea what we're doing!". He doesn't even have black hair. He has a bow staff... and a stylized "R". It's like the writers didn't even do their research. They just picked up a comic book, saw Tim and then slapped this together and then googled "Robin's secret identity" and it came up with Dick Grayson.

----------


## The Whovian

> Brenton Thwaites as Robin.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/


Looks good. Although, I see Tim when I look at it, not Dick. But still, pretty good.

----------


## Rakiduam

I love it!

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/...Look-Final.jpg

In high definition you can see tiny R in the cape and maybe finger stripes in the gloves, loving the details.

----------


## oasis1313

> Without sharing, who do you consider Dick`s rogue? Raptor? 
> 
> I guess out of the villains created and used in Outlaws, the Untitled and Joker`s Daugther are connected to him the most without being shared around with more significance.


Dick's Number One Enemy:  Dan Didio.

----------


## oasis1313

> Judging buy the fan art, fanzine and unofficial merchandise they do love the over there. I'm just happy for this gem. Dick and Damian animated by the Kill la Kill dude is an impossible dream come true.


Is this going to be a DVD release?

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing #36 Var. Cover by Yasmine Putri
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11...cesco-mattina/
> 
> First, Raptor. Now, Judge. The amount of stalker villains is closely reaching Bat levels.


The pitfalls of being pretty.

----------


## Frontier

> Brenton Thwaites as Robin.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/


Wow, so we are getting Dick as Robin in this! Awesome  :Big Grin: .

It actually looks pretty solid. I'm just happy at the fact that we're going to see Robin in live-action again. 

I also agree we'll probably see the transition to Nightwing at some point, and Dick will probably move to the escrima sticks there. 




> Costume looks pretty good. I wonder what it will look like in action though. Also I wonder how old the character is supposed to be. The actor is 28 I think, but he can pull off looking younger than that I suppose.


He'll probably play, in-universe, Dick as close to mid-20's which would be roundabout his age as Robin by the end of his tenure in the DCAU.

----------


## Godlike13

We better get the transition to Nightwing. Eveything that came out about Titans said we were getting Dick as Nightwing.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder if the fact that we're getting Dick as Robin means we're also getting Batman in some form? 

Granted, I could see it being allusions to Dicks "old partner" or something like that, like in the _Teen Titans_ cartoon.

----------


## Vic Vega

> Brenton Thwaites as Robin.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/


This looks way better than I expected it to look really.

I guess it should be taken for granted that many the later versions of Robin's costume
are considered cooler than Dick's classic uni : longer cape and all that stuff.

So we are actually getting Dick in Tim's costume and probably Nightwing later on.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s a modernized Robin costume. No modern adaptation is ever gonna use Dick’s Robin costume.

----------


## Frontier

> It’s a modernized Robin costume. No modern adaptation is ever gonna use Dick’s Robin costume.


Except _Brave and the Bold_ and the Batman '66 movies, granted those were decidedly more Silver Age in style  :Smile: .

----------


## jbmasta

> Costume looks pretty good. I wonder what it will look like in action though. Also I wonder how old the character is supposed to be. The actor is 28 I think, but he can pull off looking younger than that I suppose.


Since it's live action I can see the show downplaying Dick's acrobatics, so developing a costume that's more flexible shouldn't be an issue.

----------


## nightbird

I want to see the full costume, but so far I like what I’m seeing. 
Can’t belive we are getting a show where Dick/Robin/Nightwing is the main protagonist.

----------


## Frontier

> I want to see the full costume, but so far I like what I’m seeing. 
> Can’t belive we are getting a show where Dick/Robin/Nightwing is the main protagonist.


I can't believe we're actually going to get to see a live-action Robin again, one that might actually do the identity justice.

----------


## nightbird

> I can't believe we're actually going to get to see a live-action Robin again, one that might actually do the identity justice.


I remember as a kid I used to like Robin in Batman Forever/Batman lol 

I wonder if they planning to start with him as a Robin or that costume just for some flashbacks.

----------


## Frontier

> I remember as a kid I used to like Robin in Batman Forever/Batman lol 
> 
> I wonder if they planning to start with him as a Robin or that costume just for some flashbacks.


Heh, you are not alone there  :Big Grin: .

I think there's a chance we'll get either situation, but we're also very likely going to see a transition to Nightwing as a major plot point.

I hope the Nightwing costume and other Titans' suits are up to par.

----------


## Barbatos666

> He isn`t a Duke rogue because he doesn`t haunt Duke the way he repeteadly haunts Jason and it`s not only under Loedbell that Joker has felt something unique to Jason besides Bruce. 
> 
> Catwoman? I`d be hard press to think anyone would instantly make the connection between the two. The modern Mask has been Jason`s nemesis in comics and outside of it, including a full animated release and a video game. He`s been pitted against him, on a _personal_ level, more than anyone else in recent years.


Well that's because Duke hasn't existed for decades, there was definitely a fair bit of taunting in the Dark Days one shots. At the end of the day both UTRH and DOTF were Batman stories with Joker as the villain. Most of Joker/Jay scenes amount to flashbacks of Joker beating up Jay.

Catwoman and Black Mask do have the well regarded Brubaker and Valentine runs though and BM was barely even in AK. He was more fodder there than arch villain and frankly same goes for the Red Hood movie. He was more of a fodder villain caught in the crossfire between 3 parties. There's also a strong possibility of BM being the villain of GCS. Certainly the modern BM is defined by Brubaker version and Jeremiah Arkham version was a Dick foe while he was obviously created to be a Batman foe. Its not really black and white situation.

----------


## Barbatos666

LOVE THAT COSTUME, cant believe we're getting a live action Robin.

----------


## byrd156

> Brenton Thwaites as Robin.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/


I wish Dick had the small yellow stripes down the center of the chest, thats always lacking in redesigns of Dick's costumes. It's as important as the R to me.

----------


## ross61

> I'm so bummed about this. This literally looks like a cosplay and the cloud background and his posture just scream as a show "we have no idea what we're doing!". He doesn't even have black hair. He has a bow staff... and a stylized "R". It's like the writers didn't even do their research. They just picked up a comic book, saw Tim and then slapped this together and then googled "Robin's secret identity" and it came up with Dick Grayson.


Every live action superhero looks like cosplay.

----------


## nightbird

> Heh, you are not alone there .
> 
> I think there's a chance we'll get either situation, but we're also very likely going to see a transition to Nightwing as a major plot point.
> 
> I hope the Nightwing costume and other Titans' suits are up to par.


I would like them start with Robin and in next two episodes move him to become Nightwing. I don’t think they should wait until last episode. I feel like he should lead Titans as Nightwing. 

Yeah, I hope all Titans costumes have that cinematic look on them. 
Honestly, I disliked Robin costume from BvS. I like that that they decided to keep green-red-yellow color scheme.

----------


## jbmasta

> I would like them start with Robin and in next two episodes move him to become Nightwing. I don’t think they should wait until last episode. I feel like he should lead Titans as Nightwing. 
> 
> Yeah, I hope all Titans costumes have that cinematic look on them. 
> Honestly, I disliked Robin costume from BvS. I like that that they decided to keep green-red-yellow color scheme.


Could be a mid-season thing if the writers go with a mid-season time skip.

----------


## Pohzee

Pleasantly surprised by his look  :Cool:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s013.***********/i325/1712/74/972362011856.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://s019.***********/i630/1712/b8/342d621f4599.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s41.***********/i093/1712/2d/e7ffb7a5e42e.jpg[/IMG]
Grayson’s growth. 

https://rockin-robinz.tumblr.com/pos...ber-we-got-our

----------


## Godlike13

If DC are at all serious about making Nightwing a thing beyond comics they they new to start getting it out there. So hopefully Titans get to Nightwing rather soon.

----------


## Pohzee

> If DC are at all serious about making Nightwing a thing beyond comics they they new to start getting it out there. So hopefully Titans gets to Nightwing rather soon.


I’d rather they take their time to make his transition meaningful.

----------


## nightbird

> Could be a mid-season thing if the writers go with a mid-season time skip.


Since it’s “Titans” show, not “Nightwing”, I dont think we will get something like mid-season time skip. They need to introduce in the first-half of the show all Titans to hook up people. Dick is the main hero, but I doubt they will focus solely on him.

----------


## nightbird

> Pleasantly surprised by his look


He and Grant Gustin look like brothers from diffirent mothers here lol
I think Brenton Thwaites is a good casting choice though

----------


## Godlike13

> I’d rather they take their time to make his transition meaningful.


And as they take their time they continue to just solidify Dick as Robin. Robin is already plenty established, they need to get to Nightwing already if they actually want Nightwing to be a thing.

----------


## Pohzee

> And as they take their time they continue to just solidify Dick as Robin.


I don’t see that as a bad thing. Establishing Dick as Robin heightens the impact of his transition. This could be his highest profile graduation. Best not to make it rushed.

Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Robin.

----------


## Godlike13

Is it going to be a graduation if no one gives a shit about what he's graduating into. There's nothing wrong with Robin, but beyond the comics they need to start establishing Dick as Nightwing if they actually want Nightwing to be anything beyond the comics.

----------


## nightbird

> Is it going to be a graduation if no one gives a shit about what he's graduating into. There's nothing wrong with Robin, but beyond the comics they need to start establishing Dick as Nightwing if they actually want to do anything with Nightwing.


“You can’t make omelette without breaking eggs first”. Idea behind Nightwing is that he is an ex-Robin. You need to show a context to the audience to make them care about Dick Grayson as a character and understand his decision to move on. Of course they can start straight with Nightwing, but without at least showing him as Robin in flashbacks, imo, half of his character will be lost. I don’t expect people to get familiar with Nightwing overnight with just one show.

----------


## yohyoi

> [img]http://s013.***********/i325/1712/74/972362011856.jpg[/img][img]http://s019.***********/i630/1712/b8/342d621f4599.jpg[/img]
> [img]http://s41.***********/i093/1712/2d/e7ffb7a5e42e.jpg[/img]
> graysons growth. 
> 
> https://rockin-robinz.tumblr.com/pos...ber-we-got-our


Ahhhhh!!! The suit looks soooo awesomeeee!!! I'm so happpppyyyyy!!! FANBOY MOMENT!!!

----------


## yohyoi

> [img]http://s02.***********/i175/1712/8c/7a4a9bf661e6.gif[/img]
> 
> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i637/1712/29/dad3f17b17cc.png[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Dami, Lone Wolf and Cub manga parody 
> https://zatotubu.tumblr.com/post/168...and-cub-parody


Dick in anime is so sugoi!

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i642/1712/7c/259c79e4e31c.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcLT4uzl576/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i631/1712/80/5bc771bec94e.png[/IMG]
http://avathion.tumblr.com/post/1680...mians-bald-ass

----------


## CPSparkles

> Brenton Thwaites as Robin.
> 
> http://deadline.com/2017/12/titans-b...to-1202218594/


Oh he looks good. I really can't wait for this.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm pleasantly surprised. It looks really good.

Thank god they're not using that awful flarrowverse leather they use on everyone.

----------


## Aahz

The design looks quite similar to the Robin costume from the Arkham games.

Btw. I still wondering if we will see Batman appear in that show (since Supergirl finally had Superman appear there is at least a chance) and if we will see a second Robin, and which one they will go for.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i629/1712/e3/802189b5f0de.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s018.***********/i526/1712/06/ff36f0f065a9.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

> The design looks quite similar to the Robin costume from the Arkham games.
> 
> Btw. I still wondering if we will see Batman appear in that show (since Supergirl finally had Superman appear there is at least a chance) and if we will see a second Robin, and which one they will go for.


If previous casting call for “street smart teenager” is not for teenDick flashbacks (because someone leaked that Titans is searching for John and Mary Graysons) or someone like Roy, then I guess we might see Jason in Titans.

----------


## RedBird

0yongyong0
That sharp hair tho

----------


## Aahz

> If previous casting call for street smart teenager is not for teenDick flashbacks (because someone leaked that Titans is searching for John and Mary Graysons) or someone like Roy, then I guess we might see Jason in Titans.


I think I missed that casting call, can you give a link or quote?

----------


## nightbird

> I think I missed that casting call, can you give a link or quote?





> [DANIEL CROSS] Male, 17-19, Caucasian. Athletic, street smart, cocky, yet charming. His life is changed forever when he crosses a crime fighter and is given a new outlet for his rebellious ways. RECURRING GUEST STAR.


https://www.cbr.com/titans-casting-breakdown/amp/

----------


## Aioros22

Gotta share that in the other thread because...that does sound Jason-ish.

----------


## nightbird

> Gotta share that in the other thread because...that does sound Jason-ish.


It could be even just some new guy, but I’m not loosing hope that, if not Batman, we still can get some other Batfamily members. Especially since Brenton Thwaites kinda confirmed that we will see Gotham in Titans, so if Jason shows up to take over his role as Robin it would be just perfect.

----------


## RedBird

> Not confirmed yet, but...
> 
> Brenton Thwaites as Robin in Titans:
> Attachment 58615
> Edit: dagnabit, beat to the punch!


Looks Good, I'm curious to see the rest of the uniform and the actors in action, but it looks promising so far  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> It could be even just some new guy, but I’m not loosing hope that, if not Batman, we still can get some other Batfamily members. Especially since Brenton Thwaites kinda confirmed that we will see Gotham in Titans, so if Jason shows up to take over his role as Robin it would be just perfect.


Oh, I hope so. The transition of one learning the ropes as the other graduates is something we haven`t seen yet.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i621/1712/8d/a85ed6604f90.jpg[/IMG]
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/73/2b/1b/7...0477a96396.jpg

----------


## nightbird

> Oh, I hope so. The transition of one learning the ropes as the other graduates is something we haven`t seen yet.


Yeah, even in YJ they sadly skipped that part.

----------


## Aahz

> https://www.cbr.com/titans-casting-breakdown/amp/


Thanks  :Smile: 

Jennifer sounds a little it like Jennifer-Lynn Hayden. No idea about the others.

----------


## Fergus

Amazed by all the fanart for Batman Ninja and so quickly. The hype is real.

----------


## nightbird

> Amazed by all the fanart for Batman Ninja and so quickly. The hype is real.


A lot of fan-artists Asians, so no wonder, that they’re drawing all that cute/chibi parodies.

----------


## yohyoi

I just realized in a movie named Batman Ninja, Nightwing is the one that looks like a Ninja the most.

Even if you use the comics, Dick's costume looks very close to a Ninja. Orphan and Spoiler's costumes are very close to a Ninja too.

----------


## nightbird

> I just realized in a movie named Batman Ninja, Nightwing is the one that looks like a Ninja the most.
> 
> Even if you use the comics, Dick's costume looks very close to a Ninja. Orphan and Spoiler's costumes are very close to a Ninja too.


Well modern depiction of Ninja attire came from Kabuki theatre, so how others dressed not really that diffirent from what real ninjas used to wear before.
Dick with that hair is challenging his inner Sasuke or Noctis from FFXV though.

----------


## yohyoi

> Well modern depiction of Ninja attire came from Kabuki theatre, so how others dressed not really that diffirent from how real ninjas used to dress before.
> Dick with that hair is challenging his inner Sasuke or Noctis from FFXV though.


Hahaha! True. The anime hair was very Shounen. I'm expecting some 5 mins. of screaming and naming of moves.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s48.***********/i122/1712/1f/9edac100d07b.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcM7XDfA31M/
aww, lol

----------


## nightbird

> Hahaha! True. The anime hair was very Shounen. I'm expecting some 5 mins. of screaming and naming of moves.


You mean something like “cartwheel!”, “forearm block!”, “quadruple somersault!”? lmfao

----------


## Ascended

I'm still not convinced that the Titans show is going to give us Robin outside of flashback scenes. Weren't they calling him Nightwing in all the press releases and casting info?

----------


## ross61

> I'm still not convinced that the Titans show is going to give us Robin outside of flashback scenes. Weren't they calling him Nightwing in all the press releases and casting info?


Im fairly sure they didnt specify if it was Nightwing or Robin. I think this is our confrimation.

----------


## Punisher007

DC/WB seems to have this weird thing about Batman physically appearing and/or being directly mentioned on these shows.  Like they even let Superman show up on _Supergirl_ multiple times, but Batman can only be kind or sort of alluded to.  And according to Stephen Amell, he had to fight with the showrunners to let him: *spoilers:*
 Name-drop Bruce Wayne on _Arrow._ 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## nightbird

> I'm still not convinced that the Titans show is going to give us Robin outside of flashback scenes. Weren't they calling him Nightwing in all the press releases and casting info?


Robin will not be Dick's main mantle. I bet for 2 episodes max. Then he will move to become a cop in Bludhaven and babysit Raven with Beast Boy.

----------


## nightbird

I only now noticed that his costume is made up of little “R”’s. Man, some people have a really sharp eyes.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> The only other person Joker has personal beef with from this side of the angels is Jason.


Barbara Gordon. Duke Thomas. He killed Dicks childhood friends during Death of the Family. Actually after DotF most of the Batclan would have personal beef with him. Babs certainly gets another helping. The Joker gets around.

----------


## Frontier

> Pleasantly surprised by his look


I'm kind of reminded of the MCU Ant-Man suit to some degree.

I wonder if his pants are green or if it's all Robin red?

----------


## nightbird

> I'm kind of reminded of the MCU Ant-Man suit to some degree.
> 
> I wonder if his pants are green or if it's all Robin red?


Based on his arms black with muted-green boots or vise-versa?

----------


## FishyZombie

Surprised by how great that suit looks, still kinda skeptical about pulling off Beast Boy and Starfire on a tv/streaming service budget.

----------


## Fergus

> [IMG]http://s48.***********/i122/1712/1f/9edac100d07b.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcM7XDfA31M/
> aww, lol


I like this

----------


## Aioros22

> Barbara Gordon. Duke Thomas. He killed Dicks childhood friends during Death of the Family. Actually after DotF most of the Batclan would have personal beef with him. Babs certainly gets another helping. The Joker gets around.


To him most of those was just a Tuesday. Jason is a work of chaotic art whose main connection is translated in several media.

----------


## Aioros22

Exception for Barbara maybe but after KJ you hardly see joker being as personal about her.

----------


## Fergus

> To him most of those was just a Tuesday. Jason is a work of chaotic art whose main connection is translated in several media.


joker isn't a Jason Rogue like at all mate. No doubt Jason has beef with him but to the Joker Jason is a pretty much a tool used to hurt batman full stop.
With a character like Duke their beef is nothing to do with batman. It's more organic [though I don't consider Joker a duke rogue either]
Joker is a big part of Jason's lore but sadly that everything about it is about Batman not Jason. DITF is Jason's biggest story but sadly its a story about Batman and joker.

It's actually detrimental to Jason's character when  it seems that all writer want to write when they keep rehashing and retreading the same story over and over. It stifles creativity which is why we struggle to name personal or original Jason foes

----------


## The World

Yeah, I mean Jason's gotten a lot of exposure through the animated movie and videogames maybe the most of any Bat character not named Bruce but pretty much no one sees the Joker as one of Jason's rogues, Nor the KGBeast. Frankly it's not a good idea to need Bruce's villains anyway because at the end of the day they still belong to him. The Robin's should focus on building their own rogues that they can safely call their own.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i635/1712/a0/89b660d46ba2.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s016.***********/i335/1712/f1/4bcad90d8138.png[/IMG]

Dick and Babs
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...l-never-finish

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i635/1712/a0/89b660d46ba2.png[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://s016.***********/i335/1712/f1/4bcad90d8138.png[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Babs
> https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...l-never-finish


The first picture makes it look like she _really_ doesn't want to be there...

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i605/1712/5c/5d9f12cdebbd.jpg[/IMG]
New Talent Showcase (2017) #1

http://nytewing.tumblr.com/post/1681...howcase-2017-1

----------


## nightbird

> The first picture makes it look like she _really_ doesn't want to be there...


I guess sometimes Dick can be just super annoying =)

----------


## Godlike13

Pfft, Babs loves it...

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i637/1712/07/5aae75390d4a.png[/IMG]
http://picmurasaki.tumblr.com/post/1...t-so-much-love

lol

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i605/1712/5c/5d9f12cdebbd.jpg[/IMG]
> New Talent Showcase (2017) #1
> 
> http://nytewing.tumblr.com/post/1681...howcase-2017-1


Man, I miss Babs' old costume...

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i605/1712/5c/5d9f12cdebbd.jpg[/IMG]
> New Talent Showcase (2017) #1
> 
> http://nytewing.tumblr.com/post/1681...howcase-2017-1


Nightwing is missing some blue streak on his legs.

----------


## byrd156

> I guess sometimes Dick can be just super annoying =)


Nahhhhhhhh

----------


## oasis1313

> I guess sometimes Dick can be just super annoying =)


Dick never annoys me.  The only OTHER members of "The Family" who don't annoy me are Bat-Cow, Damian, Jason, Titus, Ace, Alfred the Cat, Alfred the Butler, and Bat-Turkey.  Everyone else takes their turn setting my teeth on edge.  Hasn't Commissioner Gordon ever been killed off?

----------


## yohyoi

> I guess sometimes Dick can be just super annoying =)


Many villains agree with this. "Stop with the puns! This isn't the Silver Age!"

----------


## oasis1313

> Many villains agree with this. "Stop with the puns! This isn't the Silver Age!"


I can't get annoyed with anything as pretty as Dick Grayson.

----------


## berserkerclaw

Im fine with Robin in Titans cause they are making a Nightwing movie so we get the best of both worlds

----------


## oasis1313

> Im fine with Robin in Titans cause they are making a Nightwing movie so we get the best of both worlds


I'm believe they're happening when I'm in the line buying tickets.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://i057.***********/1712/db/56c3fc41776b.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcOlel_jKuf/

----------


## nightbird

> Dick never annoys me.  The only OTHER members of "The Family" who don't annoy me are Bat-Cow, Damian, Jason, Titus, Ace, Alfred the Cat, Alfred the Butler, and Bat-Turkey.  Everyone else takes their turn setting my teeth on edge.  Hasn't Commissioner Gordon ever been killed off?


I mean not for us, but for some characters he probably could be sometimes, maybe. Actually, I admit, it was a stupid joke lol

----------


## ZeroBG82

Saw the photo of Robin from the upcoming streaming series, and I'm of two minds about it.

1) I'm annoyed that they're apparently stealing Tim's look for Dick, yet again.  I get it, Tim got the modern outfit and Dick's classic suit is never going to work outside of Silver Age homage.  But as a huge Tim Drake fan, it bugs me.  It bugged me in Batman: The Animated Series, it bugs me here.  Not enough that I won't enjoy it, mind.  Just always that little itch at the back of my mind.  (Though I suppose it's a testament to how strong the Drake redesign is, it's a badass look.)

2) It looks great.  Need a wider, full body shot to see what they've done with the lower half.  But the faded green/black look good, the chest looks nice.  Always dug the stylized Drake-R.  Even the cape and mask, the two things I'd worry most about in live action, look good.  Motion going to be the deciding factor, obviously.  But this static photo inspires hope.

----------


## nightbird

> Saw the photo of Robin from the upcoming streaming series, and I'm of two minds about it.
> 
> 1) I'm annoyed that they're apparently stealing Tim's look for Dick, yet again.  I get it, Tim got the modern outfit and Dick's classic suit is never going to work outside of Silver Age homage.  But as a huge Tim Drake fan, it bugs me.  It bugged me in Batman: The Animated Series, it bugs me here.  Not enough that I won't enjoy it, mind.  Just always that little itch at the back of my mind.  (Though I suppose it's a testament to how strong the Drake redesign is, it's a badass look.)
> 
> 2) It looks great.  Need a wider, full body shot to see what they've done with the lower half.  But the faded green/black look good, the chest looks nice.  Always dug the stylized Drake-R.  Even the cape and mask, the two things I'd worry most about in live action, look good.  Motion going to be the deciding factor, obviously.  But this static photo inspires hope.


Red chest plate, green arms, black and yellow cape - also belong to Dick’s New 52 costume. It’s modern Robin look now. Even weapon choice (outside comics). I guess good for Tim that he helped to reinvent the look, but it’s not just  “Tim Drake” costume anymore. I guess Damian fans also should start the riot because Tim couple of times wore a hood in animation and game.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i504/1712/fe/b0c71c348c81.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcN-SScgXBc/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i517/1712/ee/8eb5688dfe4e.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPRygjA0CW/

----------


## TheCape

> guess Damian fans also should start the riot because Tim couple of times wore a hood in animation and game.


Funny enougth, i had a disscusion with some Damian fans about it a few months ago when Tim's look for YJ new season came, about how that was Damian's signature. Honestly as Tim Drake fan i don't mind it, times changes, Dick needs a more modern costume that the one with pixie boots (althougth it would be hilarious if they alluded to him in some way).

----------


## nightbird

> Funny enougth, i had a disscusion with some Damian fans about it a few months ago when Tim's look for YJ new season came, about how that was Damian's signature. Honestly as Tim Drake fan i don't mind it, times changes, Dick needs a more modern costume more modern that the one with pixie boots (althougth it would be hilarious if they alluded to him in some way).


I remember people were mostly confused which Robin it was. But yeah, maybe some individuals poorly reacted, I don’t know. They’re also wrong though. I’m okay if people confuse Robins sometimes due to some details in their costume designs. I don’t agree when people write some passive-aggressive comments like, that just because of it they should change Titans’s Robin into Tim Drake instead of Dick Grayson or that Robin is now a mix between Tim and Dick. Apparently Dick should forever remain in his classic costume to be fully authentic.

----------


## TheCape

> Apparently Dick should forever remain in his classic costume to be fully authentic.


I don't know man, i actually would like to see a Dick modern adaptation with his classic costume and Discowing  :Big Grin: .

----------


## nightbird

> I don't know man, i actually would like to see a Dick modern adaptation with his classic and Discowing .


Only if all other heroes also come back to their classic costumes. So I expect to see Starfire in her NTT bikini and Cyborg in his two dozen straps lol

----------


## TheCape

I would watch that without a second thougth  :Big Grin:

----------


## nightbird

> I would watch that without a second thougth


Well, The Lego Batman Movie already kinda did it resently :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

Damm, i hadn't wacth that movie yet, i hear good things about it.

----------


## nightbird

> Damm, i hadn't wacth that movie yet, i hear good things about it.


You should definitely watch it, when you have a time. I personally really like it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s48.***********/i122/1712/35/4f01bbca1e71.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPILW1A_ph/

----------


## dietrich

> Funny enougth, i had a disscusion with some Damian fans about it a few months ago when Tim's look for YJ new season came, about how that was Damian's signature. Honestly as Tim Drake fan i don't mind it, times changes, Dick needs a more modern costume that the one with pixie boots (althougth it would be hilarious if they alluded to him in some way).


To be fair Sparkles was the only one who went nana over that but that case is different because Robin doesn't have a Hood. Batman doesn't allow it as Dick pointed out.
Damian's hood is indicative of his roots and the crazy training he endured in childhood. He can fight blind hence Dick allowed him to keep it. The Hood isn't part of the Robin gear Tim in YJ borrowing it is simply because it looks cool not because it's standard modern Robin uniform which YJ ignored by the way.
It's like giving Tim a Goliath because reasons.
So yeah this totally different DicRobin here is simply wearing standard Robin uniform

----------


## dietrich

> I remember people were mostly confused which Robin it was. But yeah, maybe some individuals poorly reacted, I dont know. Theyre also wrong though. Im okay if people confuse Robins sometimes due to some details in their costume designs. I dont agree when people write some passive-aggressive comments like, that just because of it they should change Titanss Robin into Tim Drake instead of Dick Grayson or that Robin is now a mix between Tim and Dick. Apparently Dick should forever remain in his classic costume to be fully authentic.


I get you man. It the same on every thread and it's annoying. Some threads even segway into animated TT Robin, YJ season 1 Robin and how those really are Tim but with Dick's name.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick never annoys me.  The only OTHER members of "The Family" who don't annoy me are Bat-Cow, Damian, Jason, Titus, Ace, Alfred the Cat, Alfred the Butler, and Bat-Turkey.  Everyone else takes their turn setting my teeth on edge.  Hasn't Commissioner Gordon ever been killed off?


Thank you Oasis1313 for remembering Bat-Turkey  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i637/1712/07/5aae75390d4a.png[/IMG]
> http://picmurasaki.tumblr.com/post/1...t-so-much-love
> 
> lol


Aww I love it so much  :Smile: 
Dick Grayson can never ever be annoying to me even if he took specialised annoy Dietrich classes

----------


## TheCape

> To be fair Sparkles was the only one who went nana over that but that case is different because Robin doesn't have a Hood.*


 Actually i was referring to some youtuber users that i talk about it for a while, but i didn't mind either way. Modern Robin has a hood, they would give him a hood, like the bo staff it falls in a similar category in outside media.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://i057.***********/1712/db/56c3fc41776b.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcOlel_jKuf/


This is beautiful. I can't wait for this movie.

----------


## Aioros22

> joker isn't a Jason Rogue like at all mate. No doubt Jason has beef with him but to the Joker Jason is a pretty much a tool used to hurt batman full stop.
> With a character like Duke their beef is nothing to do with batman. It's more organic [though I don't consider Joker a duke rogue either]
> Joker is a big part of Jason's lore but sadly that everything about it is about Batman not Jason. DITF is Jason's biggest story but sadly its a story about Batman and joker.
> 
> It's actually detrimental to Jason's character when  it seems that all writer want to write when they keep rehashing and retreading the same story over and over. It stifles creativity which is why we struggle to name personal or original Jason foes


I`m not trying to convince anyone. To me is more than appearant that Joker sees Jason differently than Duke and Dick and is often te most personal out of Bruce, to the point of feeling a sense of _ownership_ in the relationship and that narrative tool has been explored outside of comics already. 

To Joker, Jason isn`t just a kid he killed to get at Batman (which is sort of what he is to Barbara, someone he crippled for fun for Bats) but his greatest victory that dared to come back against him. 

Sure, he`s Batman`s rogue, that is out of question. Just saying.

----------


## Barbatos666

He didn't cripple Babs to screw with Batman though. He definitely does involve Jason to screw with Bats.

----------


## nightbird

> I get you man. It the same on every thread and it's annoying. Some threads even segway into animated TT Robin, YJ season 1 Robin and how those really are Tim but with Dick's name.


I guess shame on naive me for always believing that character is something more than just a costume, because all that Robins acted like Dick Grayson. And I don’t know how anyone can even question YJ’s Robin.

----------


## yohyoi

> Damm, i hadn't wacth that movie yet, i hear good things about it.


It's the best superhero movie for me this year, better than Wonder Woman. It's up there with Mask of Phantasm and Under the Red Hood. It's undoubtedly the best Bat movie detailing the family aspect. Michael Cera Robin made me cry.

It's sad that Joker sees Jason as a tool to push Bruce. He was happy to see how successful he was in breaking Jason; pushing him towards the darkness. Babs was able to prove as Oracle that The Killing Joke made her stronger. Unfortunately, I can't say the same to Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> He didn't cripple Babs to screw with Batman though. He definitely does involve Jason to screw with Bats.


Barbara was a prop (which is one if the main reasons even Moore considers it his most tasteless story ever) to make Gordon go mad and prove Batman that all it takes is one bad day. He involves both, that`s not the thing. The thing is, ever since then and over the years his relationship with Jason _grew_ into something actual personal to him. Hence why in DOFT, Jason is the one character unca Joker leaves a present in the end for, as contigency plan. Hence why in Genesis, Joker remarks it`s not only about Batman, but also him, _this kid_. Because he`s had the potential to be like Batman or himself. 







In Barbara`s case, she`s been haunted by what Joker did but from the Joker`s end, he doesn`t seem to care about her as much.

----------


## Aioros22

Anyhow, we can continue to discussion in Jason`s Thread, if you`d like. I am always on for what people think about elements in narrative like this (and I`m not on to replacing Joker as Batman`s rogue or anything, at most he`s be borrowed) but this is Dick`s Thread  :Big Grin:

----------


## yohyoi

> I guess shame on naive me for always believing that character is something more than just a costume, because all that Robins acted like Dick Grayson. And I don’t know how anyone can even question YJ’s Robin.


Come on! Everyone knows Adam West is not Batman. Batman is dark and brooding. Have you even seen his costume? /s

Get over it people. Some people think Superman is a fascist dictator because of Injustice. There are more than one interpretation of comic characters. Have you seen Miller's Dick Grayson? Just don't...

----------


## yohyoi

> Barbara was a prop (which is one if the main reasons even Moore considers it his most tasteless story ever) to make Gordon go mad and prove Batman that all it takes is one bad day. He involves both, that`s not the thing. The thing is, ever since then and over the years his relationship with Jason _grew_ into something actual personal to him. Hence why in DOFT, Jason is the one character unca Joker leaves a present in the end for, as contigency plan. Hence why in Genesis, Joker remarks it`s not only about Batman, but also him, _this kid_. Because he`s had the potential to be like Batman or himself. 
> 
> In Barbara`s case, she`s been haunted by what Joker did but from the Joker`s end, he doesn`t seem to care about her as much.


Poor Jason. His life is really a tragedy.  :Frown:  Too bad he will never kill the Joker.

----------


## nightbird

> Come on! Everyone knows Adam West is not Batman. Batman is dark and brooding. Have you even seen his costume? /s
> 
> Get over it people. Some people think Superman is a fascist dictator because of Injustice. There are more than one interpretation of comic characters. Have you seen Miller's Dick Grayson? Just don't...


There is a difference between people not understanding different interpretations of the character or having some misjudgments about him (like when people believe that Nightwing is nothing more but just hugs and rainbows) and it’s another thing when people  make a fuzz about trivial stuffs and based on them claim that one character is not authentic enough, so he should be the other one.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i621/1712/81/052e8eeee5db.jpg[/IMG]
credit: logo

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i621/1712/81/052e8eeee5db.jpg[/IMG]
> credit: logo


This is really cute  :Smile: .

----------


## oasis1313

> He didn't cripple Babs to screw with Batman though. He definitely does involve Jason to screw with Bats.


Joker don't dare mess with Dick 'cause Dick beat him in a laughing contest.  I'd have liked to have seen that drawn up.

----------


## Ascended

> Have you seen Miller's Dick Grayson? Just don't...


Actually I haven't. What does Millar have to say about Dick?

----------


## TheCape

> Actually I haven't. What does Millar have to say about Dick?


Joker II, is "so bad that is good" kind of territory  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

> Joker II, is "so bad that is good" kind of territory


I remember he was okay in All Star Batman and Robin. Did it happen later or something?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i528/1712/c2/4c0692325eb3.jpg[/IMG]
Phil Jimenez
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcQYKZKg5-0/

----------


## TheCape

> I remember he was okay in All Star Batman and Robin. Did it happen later or something


Oh shit, i forgot ASBAR, but yeah it happens later in the Dark Knigth Strikes Again mini, apparently Dick went bananas after Bruce fired him of something and was killing some old superheroes. Miller's Dick was ok in All Star, but that wasn't difficult when most of the other characther were bat shit insane, specially with Crazy Steve Batman.

----------


## nightbird

> Oh shit, i forgot ASBAR, but yeah it happens later in the Dark Knigth Strikes Again mini, apparently Dick went bananas after Bruce fired him of something and was killing some old superheroes. Miller's Dick was ok in All Star, but that wasn't difficult when most of the other characther were bat shit insane, specially with Crazy Steve Batman.


Is it a good read?

----------


## nightbird

8424F746-1AE4-4BB4-89D7-E9F608D00E82.jpg

0BA1E6AB-5701-479A-9A3B-BFB1F9588EF7.jpg
https://twitter.com/maple_DC/status/...522345472?s=17

----------


## L.H.

> Is it a good read?


I found his Dick in The Dark Knight strikes again totally out of character, always thought that he just wanted to make a shocking turning point. So if you like Miller or you don't mind to see the worst Dick's characterization you can give it a try. The story was not so bad and had an unusual point of view on Batman and his world. It's considered a classic every Batfan should read. I didn't found it the big masterpiece everybody says, but perhaps it's just me.

About Joker: Dick killed him once, so I guess that's why he doesn't want to deal with him.

----------


## nightbird

> I found his Dick in The Dark Knight strikes again totally out of character, always thought that he just wanted to make a shocking turning point. So if you like Miller or you don't mind to see the worst Dick's characterization you can give it a try. The story was not so bad and had an unusual point of view on Batman and his world. It's considered a classic every Batfan should read. I didn't found it the big masterpiece everybody says, but perhaps it's just me.


I like Bats too, so I think I will give it a try someday. Thank you.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i604/1712/8a/8b912247d45f.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcRdOyRA7z_/
Dick and Dami by Marcus To

----------


## nightbird

Question, can we consider Deathstroke as Nightwing's villain in New-52?

----------


## Aahz

> Question, can we consider Deathstroke as Nightwing's villain in New-52?


Not really, he has his own book and appart from Lazarus Contract he had iirc nothing to do with Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Question, can we consider Deathstroke as Nightwing's villain in New-52?


hes not even a villain anymoer


 its too hard to sell popular villains so lets make em good no mater how many mill they have killed

----------


## Badou

> Question, can we consider Deathstroke as Nightwing's villain in New-52?


He's probably as far away from being a Nightwing villain currently as he has ever been.

----------


## nightbird

*Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/

----------


## nightbird

651AFF2D-6088-4594-9E14-EFD42355A6E1.jpg

36FF7678-02CC-41A0-9AE3-347A8CBADDD9.jpg

5FB96FF2-6A08-4BB8-8942-4D589A7047B0.jpg

some Marcus To commissions
https://mobile.twitter.com/marcusto

----------


## nightbird

12506E87-A154-420B-91E8-17B8E3B84326.jpg

49848DB4-88D4-454A-86F2-C8ABA7777250.jpg
https://mobile.twitter.com/marcusto

----------


## Avi

> *Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/


Sad to see him go, especially since this sums up what has been discussed in this thread for over a year. It was good to read Seeley speak out about the obsessive fans, the course he was forced to take but also his own shortcomings. His frustration and his exhaustion seep through every written line.

I am excited to see his take on Simon and Jessica.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i514/1712/0b/ab18d789840b.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i622/1712/94/b33785fb32d7.jpg[/IMG]
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...robins-fan-art

lmfao

----------


## WonderNight

> Sad to see him go, especially since this sums up what has been discussed in this thread for over a year. It was good to read Seeley speak out about the obsessive fans, the course he was forced to take but also his own shortcomings. His frustration and his exhaustion seep through every written line.
> 
> I am excited to see his take on Simon and Jessica.


well yeah... people will say that dan didio is dick worse enemy but the truth is it's his fans that doesn't want to let nightwing progress pass what he was as robin ( sidekick, dickxbabs, teen titans) or the 90's. God I mess grayson. love nightwing but he's become a hyped up robin and not his own man. Seeley saw this and left.

----------


## TheCape

> Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/


Heh, Seely's vision of Damian is similar to mine  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## dietrich

> *Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/


Nice interview. I really enjoyed his run shame it was so brief but I wish him the best of luck an hope he comes back to writer Dick again  at some point.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i514/1712/0b/ab18d789840b.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i622/1712/94/b33785fb32d7.jpg[/IMG]
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...robins-fan-art
> 
> lmfao


Lol at Jason with the popcorn.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i514/1712/0b/ab18d789840b.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i622/1712/94/b33785fb32d7.jpg[/IMG]
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...robins-fan-art
> 
> lmfao


Too bad this is just fan-art, even though it's really great.  DC could sell the Hell out of this.

----------


## Frontier

> *Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/


I think I read that Evil Star issue  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Pohzee

> Of all of those issues or all of those arcs, what was your Nightwing? The one that you really thought hit it and spoke most to what it was you were trying to get across with the character?
> Tim: I would say the first four issues, and then when we came back and finished up the Raptor arc. I think those are the best. I think its the most pure Dick Grayson story, but its also a different Nightwing story. It wasnt in Bludhaven, it wasnt about cops, it wasnt about any of that sort of stuff. So I feel like that was the  thats the biggest contribution probably that we kinda came up with thats new, but also feels classic and feels like the character.


Yepp.




> And then I think a lot of elements of the Nightwing Must Die! storyline, where he was teamed up with Damian  *it didnt come out exactly the way we wanted because of the way we had to time things with Metal and stuff. We had to change some things.*


Yep...

----------


## Alycat

> *Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/



Nightwing fans might be their own worst enemy. Nobody can do anything new or different with the character and its a shame. I don't blame him for leaving. I enjoyed a lot of what Seeley did, and it's disappointing that Humphries seems to be going back into so much of the stuff I disliked about Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Where are these fans that are stopping creators from doing anything new or different? DC put an end to Grayson and instituted the Rebirth initiative, not fans. Fans might have expectations but I really don't see fans rejecting new ideas when it comes to Nightwing. Hell even New Order is seeing support.

----------


## Vinsanity

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i621/1712/81/052e8eeee5db.jpg[/IMG]
> credit: logo


I dig it. 10char

----------


## nightbird

> Too bad this is just fan-art, even though it's really great.  DC could sell the Hell out of this.


DC is either sleeping on Robins popularity or they just afraid to put all four of them in one book.

Overall I really liked Seeley’s writing and his villains were good, but Shawn and Run-Offs were a poorly executed ideas.

----------


## jbmasta

> Nightwing fans might be their own worst enemy. Nobody can do anything new or different with the character and its a shame. I don't blame him for leaving. I enjoyed a lot of what Seeley did, and it's disappointing that Humphries seems to be going back into so much of the stuff I disliked about Dick.


It's similar with Star Wars. The prequels did different, people complained. Okay, it was different but it could have been executed a lot better. Then Force Awakens is too familiar, people complained. If you are expected Empire Strikes Back levels of quality, go back and watch Empire Strikes back.

It really is incredible that you can have characters or races that have been around for decades, and still writers are able to find new facets of them to explore. Take the Daleks from Doctor Who. Debuted in 1963/4, writers can still come up with new and interesting angles around them. To have fans of the originals bash the new stuff because it's new doesn't make the new stuff bad, it means those fans aren't receptive to it. Dick is an evolving character, and doing something new and interesting, like Grayson, can not only invigorate the character but draw in new readers who can read the old storylines for the first time.

----------


## nightbird

I don’t think it’s fans fault, that DC decided to bring back Nightwing and Blüdhaven. DC/WB just saw more money in marketing and pushing Nightwing, than Agent 37.

----------


## Godlike13

> DC is either sleeping on Robins popularity or they just afraid to put all four of them in one book.


Meh boy bands are lame, and the Robins were not created to compliment one another.

----------


## nightbird

> Meh boy bands are lame, and the Robins were not created to compliment one another.


lol, boy bands. I don’t know, I still want to read it. Even if it’s turn out to be a complete trainwreck.

----------


## SpiderWing20

The reason being because fans cried they wanted the “classic” Nightwing. People wanted that stagnation back because of nostalgia and DC pandered to it. Seeley was doomed from the start with Rebirth because that’s not how he saw Dick Grayson

----------


## nightbird

> The reason being because fans cried they wanted the “classic” Nightwing. People wanted that stagnation back because of nostalgia and DC pandered to it. Seeley was doomed from the start with Rebirth because that’s not how he saw Dick Grayson


Did they? Or WB ordered DC to bring back Dick Grayson-Nightwing in the light of planned Titans show and his potential appearance in DCEU? If I remember correctly WB also were the ones who said no to Duke-Robin/Harper Row-Nightwing, because they had plans for Damian and Dick.

----------


## yohyoi

> *Tim Seeley Reflects on Years With Dick Grayson*
> https://13thdimension.com/good-night...-dick-grayson/


I'm sorry Seeley  :Frown:  Thank you for the great Dick stories. I love your Nightwing run. Good luck in Green Lanterns.

I love Dick Grayson too. I think it's okay if we have different aspects we like about Dick. It makes the character complex and multifaceted. Seeley's writing of Bludhaven and Blockbuster was okay, but I think he was missing some crucial things. I'm excited for what Humphries brings to the table this month.

----------


## yohyoi

> The reason being because fans cried they wanted the “classic” Nightwing. People wanted that stagnation back because of nostalgia and DC pandered to it. Seeley was doomed from the start with Rebirth because that’s not how he saw Dick Grayson


I think it was simply because of money. DC would gain more money publishing Nightwing rather than Grayson. If Dick is no longer Nightwing then the Nightwing brand will die off. It's the reason Dick is no longer Batman. Bruce makes more money to DC as Batman. Old fans would not put their money in change because they love the old and what they grew up with.

----------


## nightbird

840C09B8-3014-440E-B8B6-42811C9D8BD1.jpg

571757D9-FC27-40F6-BE56-1B2123133AC1.jpg
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPSin-g1F-/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcUPbRjg_E6/

----------


## Frontier

> DC is either sleeping on Robins popularity *or they just afraid to put all four of them in one book.*
> 
> Overall I really liked Seeleys writing and his villains were good, but Shawn and Run-Offs were a poorly executed ideas.


I'm afraid to put all four of them in one book, because it never ends well  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## nightbird

> I'm afraid to put all four of them in one book, because it never ends well .


For boys or their fans? =)

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s010.***********/i312/1712/ce/7a94f4fafd32.jpg[/IMG]
http://league-of-extraordinarycomics...-by-glencanlas

----------


## Alycat

> DC is either sleeping on Robins popularity or they just afraid to put all four of them in one book.
> 
> Overall I really liked Seeleys writing and his villains were good, but Shawn and Run-Offs were a poorly executed ideas.


 I can't imagine the drama and fallout from all 4 in  a book. They would need a writer who is really on point with the characters for that to happen.

----------


## Frontier

> For boys or their fans? =)


Both  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> I can't imagine the drama and fallout from all 4 in  a book. They would need a writer who is really on point with the characters for that to happen.


I don't know if there's any writer I would trust with all four Robins together given how they're generally written when they're together. 

It feels like most writers can get maybe two of the Robins and their dynamic right but not the other two and definitely not all four together.

It's why whenever all four Robins show up in something we usually get complaints about certain portrayals or just how redundant they feel.

----------


## WonderNight

not to mention the fan wars. robin A lose to bad guy robin b best bad guy fans go nuts.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It's why whenever all four Robins show up in something we usually get complaints about certain portrayals or just how redundant they feel.


They just get flanderized to all hell. We don't get Dick, Tim, Jason, and Damian. We get The Leader, The Smart Guy, The Bad Cop, and The Brat/Wildcard.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Both .
> 
> I don't know if there's any writer I would trust with all four Robins together given how they're generally written when they're together. 
> 
> It feels like most writers can get maybe two of the Robins and their dynamic right but not the other two and definitely not all four together.
> 
> It's why whenever all four Robins show up in something we usually get complaints about certain portrayals or just how redundant they feel.


they become the ninja turtles

----------


## Aioros22

> They just get flanderized to all hell. We don't get Dick, Tim, Jason, and Damian. We get The Leader, The Smart Guy, The Bad Cop, and The Brat/Wildcard.




We get the Turtles from the 80`s Toon, stripped off of layers of complex characterization that is found on their comic runs. Read the Mirage, Image and IDW runs and you`d be surprise how complex they really are.

----------


## Frontier

> We get the Turtles from the 80`s Toon, stripped off of layers of complex characterization that is found on their comic runs. Read the Mirage, Image and IDW runs and you`d be surprise how complex they really are.


Or the cartoons (especially 2k3 and the Nick cartoon).

----------


## oasis1313

> 840C09B8-3014-440E-B8B6-42811C9D8BD1.jpg
> 
> 571757D9-FC27-40F6-BE56-1B2123133AC1.jpg
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcPSin-g1F-/
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcUPbRjg_E6/


It looks like Blockbuster has turned into a brain-eating zombie.

----------


## Frontier

> It looks like Blockbuster has turned into a brain-eating zombie.


Either that or he's _really_ ticked...

----------


## CPSparkles

Batman Ninja

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i614/1712/87/05e62df50b6e.jpg[/IMG]
http://nytewing.tumblr.com/post/168236285297

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i601/1712/6d/b5bfcdc3032c.jpg[/IMG]
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...ething-ancient

DickxBabs

----------


## CPSparkles

The Most Beautiful Gotham City Garage

----------


## yohyoi

Today marks the last day of the Tim Seeley era of Nightwing. It was a good run. Some parts were great, some were okay and a few were meh. I will remember it as a time of new ideas. Let it not be forgotten.

I also say today is the start of Sam Humphries era of Nightwing. May it be successful and continue the brilliance of Dick Grayson.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s009.***********/i309/1712/99/f4e9a3be47cc.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s018.***********/i501/1712/b9/6e3d761d4f56.png[/IMG]

interesting plot twist...

----------


## CPSparkles

Batman Ninja

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s009.***********/i309/1712/99/f4e9a3be47cc.png[/IMG]
> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i501/1712/b9/6e3d761d4f56.png[/IMG]
> 
> interesting plot twist...


So Jason came first and Duke is older than everyone and hate's Batman. Dick looks like a party boy in this.

----------


## Rakiduam

> interesting plot twist...


Not really, just an angsty one, doesn't add anything or changes anything just add on misery.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## nightbird

> Not really, just an angsty one, doesn't add anything or changes anything just add on misery.


I didn’t say it changes something. Just interesting. I don’t remember or know any timeline/elseworld where Dick is not the first Robin.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I didn’t say it changes something. Just interesting. I don’t remember or know any timeline/elseworld where Dick is not the first Robin.


So chronologically intersting? that's it? Because to me itonly hammer on how indistinct they are for the DC.

----------


## nightbird

> So chronologically intersting? that's it? Because to me itonly hammer on how indistinct they are for the DC.


I don’t think the change was made to amplify that they’re undistinguishable or interchangeable, but to make Alfred’s death more tragic for Bruce. If Dick remained as first Robin it (probably) wouldn’t make sense, why Alf Bruce’s only “moral bearing”.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://i075.***********/1712/56/8c2308937c6e.jpg[/IMG]

“Go to sleep, Dick, in full Robin costume”
http://flashtrash100yarddash.tumblr....-now-my-header

----------


## Aahz

> I didnt say it changes something. Just interesting. I dont remember or know any timeline/elseworld where Dick is not the first Robin.


Pre crisis Bruce was actually the first Robin and Dick the second.

----------


## Barbatos666

> So Jason came first and Duke is older than everyone and hate's Batman. Dick looks like a party boy in this.


Duke wasn't even Duke here.

----------


## nightbird

> Pre crisis Bruce was actually the first Robin and Dick the second.


I read somewhere that DC then erase it like it never happened, no?

----------


## nightbird

After Seeley's last issue I kinda hope Humphries keeps Run-Offs around.

----------


## Fergus

> Duke wasn't even Duke here.


He's Duke Cage  :Smile:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s46.***********/i111/1712/e3/c9699b60cccf.jpg[/IMG]
+3 
https://twitter.com/marcusto/status/...940267008?s=17

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s41.***********/i094/1712/29/54df4d90c201.jpg[/IMG]
by Jorge Jimenez 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcX93aflGPW/

----------


## wvchemteach

> After Seeley's last issue I kinda hope Humphries keeps Run-Offs around.


Same here. That was one of the things that hurt Higgins run was that the supporting cast kept being written out or killed.

I also think having the Skullgirls leave St. Hadrians and decide to form their own vigilante team and move to Bludhaven to learn from Nightwing could be a cool angle.

----------


## byrd156

> [IMG]http://s009.***********/i309/1712/99/f4e9a3be47cc.png[/IMG]
> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i501/1712/b9/6e3d761d4f56.png[/IMG]
> 
> interesting plot twist...


Seems like an unnecessary change but its its own thing so whatever.

----------


## Godlike13

Murphy’s Dick is so BTAS.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm gonna miss Seeley. I hope he works on Dick Grayson again.

But if he does I hope it's a much more SPYRALY storyline with a more stylish art team. There's definitely far more Spyral story to tell. I mean ... Doctor Dedalus was wrapped, Dick's secret identity was wrapped, they aided with all the secret global conspiracy societies and then the Mister Minos loose end was wrapped and the Helena connection reestablished.

But Kathy Kane was DEFINITELY NOT WRAPPED. The other spy agencies - some of the agents teased at first in Grayson then not used for the short "Spy War" - definitely not played with.

There's a DC Comics 1960s style, Steranko style spy book still very much in play and I'd hope to see Agent 37 return some day to close those threads.

----------


## Badou

I don't know if I would want them to deal with Kathy again, and I say that as someone that wants more Grayson stories. 

How her story ended in the Grayson series is probably one of the most disappointing things I've read in the last few years because the expectations I had. I really thought she was being built up into this super important figure after what she did in Batman INC and how she was controlling so many things in the Grayson book by being one step ahead. It was great to see. Then it turns out she was just trying to win her crazy Nazi dads love and attention to revive him and then got thrown away out of a moving train when she was no longer of any use. It was just such a massive let down. I don't think I want to see her again because I don't think they could fix her and bring her back to being anywhere near as interesting as she was before. To me at least. Too much damage was done.

----------


## Godlike13

Her story in Grayson altogether was disappointing. And obvious victim of the New 52, couldn't call her Kathy Kane or really refer to her as the original Batwoman. So what they ideally could have done to what they were actually able to do. Ya, things with her were rather disappointing IMO.

----------


## oasis1313

> Seems like an unnecessary change but its its own thing so whatever.


So Tim is Nightwing in this 'verse?

----------


## byrd156

> So Tim is Nightwing in this 'verse?


Nah its still Dick I believe.

----------


## Barbatos666

So Seeley has effectively taken both Blockbuster and Raptor off the table. While characters come back all the time and in the case of the former it shoulfn't even be that difficult I was nonetheless surprised. So despite stories being set in Bludhaven Seeley has created a status quo that bears no resemblance to the 90's early 2000's Bludhaven era. I'm cautiously excited and optimistic for the upcoming run. If nothing else atleast the art will be spectacular.

----------


## zomg

> Murphy’s Dick is so BTAS.


The story pretty much takes place in a BTAS universe with some comic reference sprinkled in. Only thing missing, really, is Bruce screwing Barbara. That moment might still happen though.

----------


## Aioros22

To clarify the timeline: 

. Jason was first Robin with the classic costume, captured and tortured by Joker. 

. An empty casket was buried because no body was ever retrieved. According to OG Harley, he was still alive when she called Bats in. 

. Dick replaced him as Robin and eventually graduates to Nigthwing. 

. Barbara is still Batgirl but appearantly is on a breaking point with Batman. 

. Duke Cage is ex-military and seemingly hates Batman`s guts.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s008.***********/i305/1712/3e/e3a2aaa438ab.jpg[/IMG]
https://callipygianflamingo.tumblr.c...th-lil-batgirl

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i519/1712/2f/9b0baa6771aa.jpg[/IMG]
http://oo0-0oo.tumblr.com/post/16825...ats-under-that

[IMG]http://s42.***********/i096/1712/01/e2df1a30448b.jpg[/IMG]
http://lisa-jam.tumblr.com/post/1681...an-ninja-anime

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s010.***********/i314/1712/11/05470c7d6827.png[/IMG]
Dick and Babs

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i624/1712/09/10e24e781ff0.png[/IMG]
Dick and Dami

https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...eye-in-the-sky

----------


## Aioros22

Man, the artista has a knack to draw expressions.

----------


## yohyoi

I heard Raptor was a dick. If you know what I mean  :Wink:   :Wink:   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## joybeans

Grant Morrison's answering questions on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...f_new/dqwwx60/

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...f_new/dqwwc67/

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I would trust Morrison on everything except relationship from what I have seen from Talia & Catwoman. Dick didn’t even have a real relationship as Batman

----------


## TheCape

Man, is a pitty that we didn't have more DickBats, but well status quo is god and all that.

----------


## TheCape

Also, the ship war is probably going to get worse  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Are there even any currently working comic book creators who are pro DickFire, smh. I mean there probably are, but all the major creators think are all pro DickBabs which kinda sucks, imo.

----------


## Frontier

> Are there even any currently working comic book creators who are pro DickFire, smh. I mean there probably are, but all the major creators think are all pro DickBabs which kinda sucks, imo.


I know Seeley is a self-admitted DickBabs fan as well but I don't think he's against DickFire. 

I think Johns was also a DickFire fan given the subtle way he's promoted that relationship in his work (both during his Titans run and during _Infinite Crisis_).

----------


## nightbird

But TV/animation/games - all pushing DickKory right now.

----------


## Badou

It is common sense. I think Morrison understands that. You don't have the utility with Starfire, who is a giant orange space alien, as you do with Babs. The problem is that both Dick and Babs are solo characters and that will always prevent them from being in an actual relationship as long as each are trying to build their own world and solo stories .

----------


## Badou

> But TV/animation/games - all pushing DickKory right now.


Young Justice will probably be Dick/Babs and the Batgirl movie too. Also given how Hawk and Dove are being shoved into the Titans show they might use Babs too down the road, as she was originally going to be on the Titans TNT show this current Titans TV show seems to be a repurpose of.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It is common sense. I think Morrison understands that. You don't have the utility with Starfire, who is a giant orange space alien, as you do with Babs. The problem is that both Dick and Babs are solo characters and that will always prevent them from being in an actual relationship as long as each are trying to build their own world and solo stories .


So basically one has to give up themselves t be part of the others world like catwoman has done
So until Barbra leaves the batgirl mantle dickbab can't be a thing however I tend see most epilogue going that way
The bat office won't have dickfire be endgame

----------


## nightbird

> Young Justice will probably be Dick/Babs and the Batgirl movie too. Also given how Hawk and Dove are being shoved into the Titans show they might use Babs too down the road, as she was originally going to be on the Titans TNT show this current Titans TV show seems to be a repurpose of.


I feel like that old TNT Titans was completely re-worked. So I don’t see Babs joining Titans any time soon to create the love triangle. 
And there is a big chance that YJ3 will be as “unromantic” to Dick as YJ2.

----------


## Frontier

I'll be surprised if Starfire isn't Dick's main romance in the Titans show, although there will probably be that patented "CW drama" that keeps them apart.

----------


## nightbird

> I'll be surprised if Starfire isn't Dick's main romance in the Titans show, although there will probably be that patented "CW drama" that keeps them apart.


Nah, they will create “Felicity” for Dick... oh, no.. that’s Babs lol 

All jokes aside: Dick and Kory - same age; Hawk and Dove - both 30+; Beast Boy and Raven - teenagers. So yeah, nothing new or surprising.

----------


## CuteClops

> [IMG]http://s010.***********/i314/1712/11/05470c7d6827.png[/IMG]
> Dick and Babs
> 
> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i624/1712/09/10e24e781ff0.png[/IMG]
> Dick and Dami
> 
> https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...eye-in-the-sky


Wow. Awesome!

Thanks, dude.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i525/1712/92/b4647d27bcb7.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Tim by Marcus To
http://marcusto.tumblr.com/post/1683...i-did-in-japan

----------


## Alycat

What I don't get is why writers always ignore how awful the two were to each other when they are together. it is like everyone glosses over how short their time together was.

----------


## TheCape

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i525/1712/92/b4647d27bcb7.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Dick and Tim by Marcus To
> http://marcusto.tumblr.com/post/1683...i-did-in-japan


Freaking awesome.

----------


## TheCape

> What I don't get is why writers always ignore how awful the two were to each other when they are together. it is like everyone glosses over how short their time together was.


DickBabs?, well Dixon did a pretty good slowburn thing beetween the 2 and had a pretty fun dynamic beetween the 2, the conclusion felt earned. I was thanks to Devin Grayson run when Dick started to act really weird (and when in my opinion the sligth shift of his characther actually started), like what the hell was he thinking when he changed Barbara computer system, when he knows how touchy she is with that kind of stuff, he just turned incredibly insensitive toward her in that run.

----------


## nightbird

> DickBabs?, well Dixon did a pretty good slowburn thing beetween the 2 and had a pretty fun dynamic beetween the 2, the conclusion felt earned. I was thanks to Devin Grayson run when Dick started to act really weird (and when in my opinion the sligth shift of his characther actually started), like what the hell was he thinking when he changed Barbara computer system, when he knows how touchy she is with that kind of stuff, he just turned incredibly insensitive toward her in that run.


Babs hardly was at her best either, imo.

----------


## TheCape

> Babs hardly was at her best either, imo.


Yeah, i know, it was weird how jelaous she was acting about Dick's suddenly "ladykiller" tendencies, it was really odd, but well it sadly happens to often with long running comic book characthers.

----------


## nightbird

> Yeah, i know, it was weird how jelaous she was acting about Dick's suddenly "ladykiller" tendencies, it was really odd, but well it sadly happens to often with long running comic book characthers.


She straightforward blamed him. Devin Grayson’s run was... strange. 
But yeah, I can’t say she is the only one who wrote a “strange” things though.

----------


## Godlike13

They weren't awful to each other till they were going to break them up, but even then they weren't actually that awful to each other.

----------


## TheCape

> She straightforward blamed him. Devin Grayson’s run was... strange.*
> I can’t say she is the only one who wrote a “strange” stuff though.


More like a disaster if you ask me, i'm glad that she recognized her mistakes with the run eventually, specially regarding Tarantula.

----------


## nightbird

> More like a disaster if you ask me, i'm glad that she recognized her mistakes with the run eventually, specially regarding Tarantula.


I was trying to be nice. She had some interesting ideas, but ultimately failed to deliver.

----------


## Rac7d*

I cant wait for Titans shwo jsut so all the dick grayson headcannon on tublr can die off

----------


## nightbird

> I cant wait for Titans shwo jsut so all the dick grayson headcannon on tublr can die off


... or add new ones lol

----------


## byrd156

> I cant wait for Titans shwo jsut so all the dick grayson headcannon on tublr can die off


That's not how tumblr works, it will only add to it.

----------


## yohyoi

> That's not how tumblr works, it will only add to it.


The truth.

----------


## yohyoi

Damn you Grant Morrison and your shipping magic. DickKory will never die!!!

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i600/1712/da/558a3f99e92f.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i505/1712/86/ab8c67dfc83d.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i600/1712/d0/184112a0cab4.png[/IMG]

Dick and his mom. 
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...-some-feelings

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s013.***********/i325/1712/ad/4e4e801d9680.jpg[/IMG]
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...dles-baby-birb

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i624/1712/ae/c510fb5328c1.png[/IMG]
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...g-i-realized-i

+

[IMG]http://s011.***********/i316/1712/c0/1b904ee242d8.jpg[/IMG]
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...-liked-my-mary
John and Mary Graysons

----------


## L.H.

Good pictures! You know, the reason why I really disliked the story of the name taken by Raptor is his middle name. I mean: you gave your son as firs name the one of your friend (maybe lover) and then his father's? It's kinda odd

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I dont understand this Big Orange Alien criticism, Dick is not as street level/down to earth as people think. He is a Circus Kid who was raised by an eccentric billionaire who dress as a Bat, his other major mentor is an alien whose alien history inspired his mantle. The Teen Titans are a mix off different people from amazon to Atlantis yet everyone keeps trying to place Dick as someone like Daredevil which he is not. Honestly the Batfamily will always have him in the background while Titans has him in the lead when it comes to media. Also The Director for the Nightwing Movie is passionate about the character and is leading the casting charge yet people somehow think the Batgirl movie is in control of the character. Whedon does not have that high of a standing especially after JL.

----------


## WonderNight

> I don’t understand this “Big Orange Alien” criticism, Dick is not as street level/down to earth as people think. He is a Circus Kid who was raised by an eccentric billionaire who dress as a Bat, his other major mentor is an alien whose alien history inspired his mantle. The Teen Titans are a mix off different people from amazon to Atlantis yet everyone keeps trying to place Dick as someone like Daredevil which he is not. Honestly the Batfamily will always have him in the background while Titans has him in the lead when it comes to media. Also The Director for the Nightwing Movie is passionate about the character and is leading the casting charge yet people somehow think the Batgirl movie is in control of the character. Whedon does not have that high of a standing especially after JL.


It doesn't matter! as long as dick stays under batmans shadow and remains a sidekick and a (as raptor put it) brand extension and not a main hero his world and mytho will be about fitting batman not him. No matter if his best friends is a speedster and a amazon.

So its not that starfire doesn't fit in nightwings world (he doesn't have his own yet) its that she doesn't fit into batmans. its the main reason I dont ship dickxbabs, and I do like babs but she as a bat character keep batmans shadow over him.

----------


## Aahz

> So its not that starfire doesn't fit in nightwings world (he doesn't have his own yet) its that she doesn't fit into batmans. its the main reason I dont ship dickxbabs, and I do like babs but she as a bat character keep batmans shadow over him.


Blüdhaven is kind of his world, but I don't think Kory fits there.

Btw. it is similar with Batman, he works well together with Superman, Wonder Woman ect. in other books but it wouldn't really work if they would popup regularly in his book.

----------


## WonderNight

> Blüdhaven is kind of his world, but I don't think Kory fits there.
> 
> Btw. it is similar with Batman, he works well together with Superman, Wonder Woman ect. in other books but it wouldn't really work if they would popup regularly in his book.


you're right. starfire doesn't fit bludhaven but dicks world doesn't have to stop at bludhaven! its why I wish he could be a part time agent for spyral or a.r.g.u.s or the d.e.o because then he would have a reason to globetrot and fight with and against meta like he does in the YJ show as part of his own mtyhos with bludhaven.

----------


## Godlike13

> you're right. starfire doesn't fit bludhaven but dicks world doesn't have to stop at bludhaven! its why I wish he could be a part time agent for spyral or a.r.g.u.s or the d.e.o because then he would have a reason to globetrot and fight with and against meta like he does in the YJ show as part of his own mtyhos with bludhaven.


Starfire wouldn’t fit in those worlds either. Nothing about Starfire is covert.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

The idea of SO's needing to fit in a character's "World" just never really made sense to me. 

A big chunk of why I'm with the girl I'm with is because we have different lives and experiences and she offers a different perspective. 

I'd love to see Star try to be covert, just as I'd love to see Dick mix it up with aliens in outer space.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Bludhaven and an eternal Batman Tether is why DickXbabs will never work and why Shawn won’t work. People are looking at this from a LoisXClark scenario where you both work closely with your significant other and are with them 24/7. Superman can fly everywhere, Lois pursues her own stories at times and they have been an item since issue # 1. Dick Grayson first serious relationship without any retcons was Koriand’r and her Model career gives a legitimate reason to frequent Bludhaven and when working as a superhero can fly away, in Universe no one should make a fuss about her being an alien since she is a model and does not work in the city as a superhero. You don’t need her to go on covert missions or intervene in his cases. It is Batgirl who would literally be involved in both his work life and personal life and we have seen from both Shawn and the outside world that such a relationship of 24/7 contact rarely works

----------


## Badou

> Bludhaven and an eternal Batman Tether is why DickXbabs will never work and why Shawn won’t work. People are looking at this from a LoisXClark scenario where you both work closely with your significant other and are with them 24/7. Superman can fly everywhere, Lois pursues her own stories at times and they have been an item since issue # 1. Dick Grayson first serious relationship without any retcons was Koriand’r and her Model career gives a legitimate reason to frequent Bludhaven and when working as a superhero can fly away, in Universe no one should make a fuss about her being an alien since she is a model and does not work in the city as a superhero. You don’t need her to go on covert missions or intervene in his cases. It is Batgirl who would literally be involved in both his work life and personal life and we have seen from both Shawn and the outside world that such a relationship of 24/7 contact rarely works


Lois has existed since the beginning of Superman character while Dick has been around for 50 years before Starfire was even created, and that was part of a different franchise. They aren't the same thing. Both of them also live and work in the same city while Starfire doesn't live in Bludhaven and has never been part of that city. Her being a model again wouldn't fix that. As long as he is still in Bludhaven he will be street level and that will never work for Starfire long term because she has no real agency to be there. It is common sense. Can anyone name another romance in comics where a street level solo hero character had a long time love interest with some super powered non human? Especially one where that non human didn't live in the same city? I can't think of one. Even simple things like going out and having normal dates can't be done because she is a giant orange space alien. At least with characters like Superman he looks normal and can blend into the city. The one way they can work together is if Dick is a full time Titans character, and that isn't happening. 

DickxBabs won't work because both are solo characters. That is the main reason and why there are no solo characters currently dating in comics. It has to be like Green Arrow/BC or Batman/Catwoman where you fold one of the love interests into the other's book so you can develop the relationship. Otherwise you end up like Superman/Wonder Woman where a writer, like Azz on Wonder Woman, basically ignored the whole romance because it doesn't fit with what he wants to do with the character. 

Shawn was never a serious love interest because she is an new original character created for a character with 75 years of history already. She was never going to take priority over Dick's more famous love interests. Just like how those new Spider-man love interests never last.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

You miss understood me bringing up LoisXClark, I brought them because of the notion that DickXbabs are on that level. Starfire is NOT a Big Giant Space Alien Based on the fact she easily lived on earth as a model that you’re opinion but one that is not real in comics it is editorial control that makes things that way + people act like Dick Grayson would give two &$$& about people making a fuss about how his girlfriend looks overlook he is a circus kid and won’t have the same prejudices as others against people who don’t exactly fit in. Koriand’r = Kal El in human passing looks she just doesn’t look white. Bludhaven also has a humanoid shark so I’m pretty sure no one is gonna fuss at Koriand’r who DOES pass as human looking. I am also considering media when assessing Dicks relationships and on the strength of Teen Titans TV series, Animated Movies, and the Digital show coming up (which will not feature Batgirl as that love triangle plot was left with the TNT pitch) DickXKori has acted like a Natural relationship even more that the original Comic relationship. DickXbabs on the other hand started out with a kiss that had fan backlash in the 70’s and went no where, a retconned happy go lucky 90’s relationship Based Of BTAS (That eventually shipped her with Bruce) and in most modern media she has been with someone else.

----------


## WonderNight

> Lois has existed since the beginning of Superman character while Dick has been around for 50 years before Starfire was even created, and that was part of a different franchise. They aren't the same thing. Both of them also live and work in the same city while Starfire doesn't live in Bludhaven and has never been part of that city. Her being a model again wouldn't fix that. As long as he is still in Bludhaven he will be street level and that will never work for Starfire long term because she has no real agency to be there. It is common sense. Can anyone name another romance in comics where a street level solo hero character had a long time love interest with some super powered non human? Especially one where that non human didn't live in the same city? I can't think of one. Even simple things like going out and having normal dates can't be done because she is a giant orange space alien. At least with characters like Superman he looks normal and can blend into the city. The one way they can work together is if Dick is a full time Titans character, and that isn't happening. 
> 
> DickxBabs won't work because both are solo characters. That is the main reason and why there are no solo characters currently dating in comics. It has to be like Green Arrow/BC or Batman/Catwoman where you fold one of the love interests into the other's book so you can develop the relationship. Otherwise you end up like Superman/Wonder Woman where a writer, like Azz on Wonder Woman, basically ignored the whole romance because it doesn't fit with what he wants to do with the character. 
> 
> Shawn was never a serious love interest because she is an new original character created for a character with 75 years of history already. She was never going to take priority over Dick's more famous love interests. Just like how those new Spider-man love interests never last.


So what you're saying is dick is F'd! no new original love, babs locks him in under batmans shadow, and no full on titans or dcu? yep his F'd.

----------


## WonderNight

> You miss understood me bringing up LoisXClark, I brought them because of the notion that DickXbabs are on that level. Starfire is NOT a Big Giant Space Alien Based on the fact she easily lived on earth as a model that you’re opinion but one that is not real in comics it is editorial control that makes things that way + people act like Dick Grayson would give two &$$& about people making a fuss about how his girlfriend looks overlook he is a circus kid and won’t have the same prejudices as others against people who don’t exactly fit in. Koriand’r = Kal El in human passing looks she just doesn’t look white. Bludhaven also has a humanoid shark so I’m pretty sure no one is gonna fuss at Koriand’r who DOES pass as human looking. I am also considering media when assessing Dicks relationships and on the strength of Teen Titans TV series, Animated Movies, and the Digital show coming up (which will not feature Batgirl as that love triangle plot was left with the TNT pitch) DickXKori has acted like a Natural relationship even more that the original Comic relationship. DickXbabs on the other hand started out with a kiss that had fan backlash in the 70’s and went no where, a retconned happy go lucky 90’s relationship Based Of BTAS (That eventually shipped her with Bruce) and in most modern media she has been with someone else.


I do like your idea of a love interest who can come and go when need be. also bludhaven doesn't have too be street level. it's only been that way because dc has tried to make nightwing more batman meet daredevil., but they should go more grayson meet Spider-Man.

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s011.***********/i316/1712/c0/1b904ee242d8.jpg[/IMG]
> https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...-liked-my-mary
> John and Mary Graysons


Y'know, I think we've seen plenty of flashbacks to the Wayne's before they had Bruce or when he was relatively young, even Thomas courting Martha, but I don't think we get anywhere near as many with Dick's parents. 



> *Blüdhaven is kind of his world, but I don't think Kory fits there*.
> 
> Btw. it is similar with Batman, he works well together with Superman, Wonder Woman ect. in other books but it wouldn't really work if they would popup regularly in his book.


With the way Seeley has re-imagined Bludhaven as this Vegas-y center of excess and tourism I could actually see Kori, as a 6'4" orange alien bombshell, actually fitting in quite nicely. 

I mean, she *does* have hedonist tendencies (not that you see it in the Titans books that much since she has to be the den mom). 



> The idea of SO's needing to fit in a character's "World" just never really made sense to me. 
> 
> A big chunk of why I'm with the girl I'm with is because we have different lives and experiences and she offers a different perspective. 
> 
> I'd love to see Star try to be covert, just as I'd love to see Dick mix it up with aliens in outer space.


Just the idea of Starfire trying to be covert and have a secret identity always sounds hilarious.

----------


## nightbird

> I do like your idea of a love interest who can come and go when need be. also bludhaven doesn't have too be street level. it's only been that way because dc has tried to make nightwing more batman meet daredevil., but they should go more grayson meet Spider-Man.


Spider-Man..? Like what?

----------


## L.H.

> Just the idea of Starfire trying to be covert and have a secret identity always sounds hilarious.


I think that this is the point against Kory. You can't date an orange alien and keep a secret identity. They went through this in New Teen Titans and it didn't turn good. 
I've loved the Nightwing/Oracle dynamic, but now I think that is better what Hope Larson established in Summer of lies.
The only one I can still see with Dick is Helena. Hope Humphries will go on on that

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick doesnt need Kori to be his partner fighting crime and honesty gives him more of a cover for a secret identification as the Adopted son of a Billionaire living in a East Coast Las Vegas dating a Super Model (who is a superhero for the Titans which works nationally/international) while in secret he goes out as Nightwing a solo hero for Bludhaven. Barbara gives him less of a cover for his secret identity since she is so connected with Gotham and consumes most of his life giving him no breathing space and giving him less control over Bludhaven. The argument against Kori are always Giant Orange Alien which has never been an issue since she has passed for a model & trying to be s covert operative which shouldnt be a requirement for a relationship and would be better if he had no need to go on a secret missions with his girlfriend like he did with Babs. Kori doesnt need to be anything more than his supermodel girlfriend who superheros on his own time while Babs would be all consuming being there when he is a Civilian and Superhero.

Dick should have time as a civilian for relationships and then time as a superhero for being a detective. Kori can be his girlfriend and the he goes off superheroing. Why would anyone immediately think he is Nightwing with her especially with Kori working on a separate team. NO ONE would put two & two together because there would be less meshing Of Civilian & Superhero Life. IT is Barbara who gives him more of a risk of blowing his cover because they would be working so close together as superhero and Civilians anyone would guess that they are Nightwing & Batgirl.

----------


## WonderNight

> Spider-Man..? Like what?


like taking on more out there villains and higher level street villains then than street thugs as his main tone of character.

----------


## nightbird

> like taking on more out there villains and higher level street villains then than street thugs as his main tone of character.


Well Peter is a superhuman, he can keep up with his rogue gallery. I prefer Dick to deal with organizations, mafia, assasins, highly skilled and smart (/street level) villians, some gruesome weirdos and etc. I don’t think Dick’s villains should be metahumans (maybe couple)  to be interesting. Honestly, they need to bring back someone like Gordon Jr.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think that this is the point against Kory. You can't date an orange alien and keep a secret identity.



Why is it so out there for Dick Grayson (better looking son of one of the world's biggest celebrity bachelor) to date an alien supermodel? In the DCU superheroes are basically celebrities anyway.

----------


## L.H.

> Dick doesn’t need Kori to be his partner fighting crime and honesty gives him more of a cover for a secret identification as the Adopted son of a Billionaire living in a East Coast Las Vegas dating a Super Model (who is a superhero for the Titans which works nationally/international) while in secret he goes out as Nightwing a solo hero for Bludhaven. Barbara gives him less of a cover for his secret identity since she is so connected with Gotham and consumes most of his life giving him no breathing space and giving him less control over Bludhaven. The argument against Kori are always Giant Orange Alien which has never been an issue since she has passed for a model & trying to be s covert operative which shouldn’t be a requirement for a relationship and would be better if he had no need to go on a secret missions with his girlfriend like he did with Babs. Kori doesn’t need to be anything more than his supermodel girlfriend who superhero’s on his own time while Babs would be all consuming being there when he is a Civilian and Superhero.
> 
> Dick should have time as a civilian for relationships and then time as a superhero for being a detective. Kori can be his girlfriend and the he goes off superheroing. Why would anyone immediately think he is Nightwing with her especially with Kori working on a separate team. NO ONE would put two & two together because there would be less meshing Of Civilian & Superhero Life. IT is Barbara who gives him more of a risk of blowing his cover because they would be working so close together as superhero and Civilians anyone would guess that they are Nightwing & Batgirl.


And @WhipWhirlwind

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to say that it's the reason why DickKory went away years ago and was replaced by DickBabs. I remember the story arc where they faced it: Dick wanted to marry her, so they faked a broke up between Starfire and Nightwing because of Dick Grayson, with Mirage posing as Nightwing. We all know how it ended.
Right now things are different, that's true, but I can't see them back agai in the comics. 
Things are different for the upcoming Titans show

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Overall I feel like the secret identity has been deemphasized in comics to the point where it wouldn't be an issue. 

Feel like audiences now aren't very interested in the particulars of how Batman or Nightwing maintains their SI, we just accept that its a thing that needs to exist.

----------


## Frontier

> Overall I feel like the secret identity has been deemphasized in comics to the point where it wouldn't be an issue. 
> 
> Feel like audiences now aren't very interested in the particulars of how Batman or Nightwing maintains their SI, we just accept that its a thing that needs to exist.


Personally I wish we saw more of Batman being Bruce Wayne and doing Bruce Wayne stuff and less being Batman all the time, but that's just me.

As much as I enjoy the costumed stuff in my Superhero fiction, I also enjoy seeing the non-costume stuff balancing it out.

----------


## nightbird

> Y'know, I think we've seen plenty of flashbacks to the Wayne's before they had Bruce or when he was relatively young, even Thomas courting Martha, but I don't think we get anywhere near as many with Dick's parents.


Maybe because Dick, unlike Bruce, (supposedly) overcame tragedy. Although it would’ve been nice to see more Graysons together before that day.

----------


## Badou

> Dick doesnt need Kori to be his partner fighting crime and honesty gives him more of a cover for a secret identification as the Adopted son of a Billionaire living in a East Coast Las Vegas dating a Super Model (who is a superhero for the Titans which works nationally/international) while in secret he goes out as Nightwing a solo hero for Bludhaven. Barbara gives him less of a cover for his secret identity since she is so connected with Gotham and consumes most of his life giving him no breathing space and giving him less control over Bludhaven. The argument against Kori are always Giant Orange Alien which has never been an issue since she has passed for a model & trying to be s covert operative which shouldnt be a requirement for a relationship and would be better if he had no need to go on a secret missions with his girlfriend like he did with Babs. Kori doesnt need to be anything more than his supermodel girlfriend who superheros on his own time while Babs would be all consuming being there when he is a Civilian and Superhero.
> 
> Dick should have time as a civilian for relationships and then time as a superhero for being a detective. Kori can be his girlfriend and the he goes off superheroing. Why would anyone immediately think he is Nightwing with her especially with Kori working on a separate team. NO ONE would put two & two together because there would be less meshing Of Civilian & Superhero Life. IT is Barbara who gives him more of a risk of blowing his cover because they would be working so close together as superhero and Civilians anyone would guess that they are Nightwing & Batgirl.


This still makes no sense to me. She is an orange alien with fire for hair that can destroy buildings with a single punch. You don't think she would stand out? And you don't think people would wonder why she is in Bludhaven when the only other hero there is Nightwing when she has no connection there? He couldn't go out in public with her in Bludhaven as people would wonder who this person is with Starfire and could easily make the connection that he is Nightwing. It is because Starfire has no civilian identity to hide herself. How they deal with this in the Titans show will be interesting. Either they will downplay her alien features where she looks mostly human, or she will get some device that lets her appear human probably. 

The argument against Barbara doesn't work either because the public already knows they have a connection through Gotham and have worked together in the past and continue to work together. There would be nothing weird for Batgirl and Nightwing teaming up. It would be the same as him teaming up with Robin or Batman and neither one of those are going to get the public to out him.

----------


## Alycat

My problem is that I like the crossover of Dick/Starfire. Not everyone with a slight connection to the batfam has to be together or stay grounded. That's why the Titans, when well written are worth it. The thought of Dick being the normal guy with a pretty out there girlfriend/wife ( and hopefully superpower kid) is way more interesting imo than being grounded.

----------


## TheCape

I think that i'm only one that like boths relationships  :Smile: , althougth to be honest, with the way that romance is handle in main superhero comics today, i'm perfectly ok with Dick being single forever.

----------


## Frontier

> I think that i'm only one that lile boths relationships , althougth to be honest, with the way that romance is handle in main superhero comics today, i'm perfectly ok with Dick being single forever.


Same here, I'm a fan of both Babs and Kori for Dick  :Smile: .

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> This still makes no sense to me. She is an orange alien with fire for hair that can destroy buildings with a single punch. You don't think she would stand out? And you don't think people would wonder why she is in Bludhaven when the only other hero there is Nightwing when she has no connection there? He couldn't go out in public with her in Bludhaven as people would wonder who this person is with Starfire and could easily make the connection that he is Nightwing. It is because Starfire has no civilian identity to hide herself. How they deal with this in the Titans show will be interesting. Either they will downplay her alien features where she looks mostly human, or she will get some device that lets her appear human probably. 
> 
> The argument against Barbara doesn't work either because the public already knows they have a connection through Gotham and have worked together in the past and continue to work together. There would be nothing weird for Batgirl and Nightwing teaming up. It would be the same as him teaming up with Robin or Batman and neither one of those are going to get the public to out him.


Youre argument is based on your opinion of Starfire and not the reality that at her inception she worked as a model, had a more normal name, and lived with Dick Grayson. Never has her being alien been an issue except for editorial and DickXbabs shippers. Her awareness the culture was the same as any immigrant, Why would it suddenly be an issue in Bludhaven that has a hulk creature, a talking Ape, a Human Shark etc. theres is no issue with her looks. Dick Grayson Life has always stalled when he is 24:7 Gotham unless he is Robin Or Batman. Titans will come out before both Batgirl and Nightwing and if it is better than CW and Netflix Marvel level Dick will grow stronger with the Titan Brand and eventually stick more with the public. You cant want him to have his World and both accept he will be stuck in Gotham

----------


## Godlike13

Her being alien and Dick wanting her to conform to his human ways was actually a continual issue in Dick and Starfire's relationship. One the often made Dick to come out like an asshole who was constantly imposing limitations on Starfire so she can better fit in with his lifestyle. This is not even just about Dick. Trying to fit Starfire into a street level environment is not a very flourishing situation for Starfire. 

And Titans might come out before both Batgirl and Nightwing, but as evident from the current Titans DC doesn't seem to give a crap about Dick's level when it comes to the Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Her being alien and Dick wanting her to conform to his human ways was actually a continual issue in Dick and Starfire's relationship. One the often made Dick to come out like an asshole who was constantly imposing limitations on Starfire so she can better fit in with his lifestyle. This is not even just about Dick. Trying to fit Starfire into a street level environment is not a very flourishing situation for Starfire. 
> 
> And Titans might come out before both Batgirl and Nightwing, but as evident from the current Titans DC doesn't seem to give a crap about Dick's level when it comes to the Titans.


But hes a batman chracters first. She fits in his life when he doing his Titans/Mtv Real World life
but not in gotham

----------


## TheCape

> Her being alien and Dick wanting her to conform to his human ways was actually a continual issue in Dick and Starfire's relationship. One the often made Dick to come out like an asshole who was constantly imposing limitations on Starfire so she can better fit in with his lifestyle. This is not even just about Dick. Trying to fit Starfire into a street level environment is not a very flourishing situation for Starfire.*


It really depends how they aproached it and how the charactherization goes, back in the day their biggest problem was that she didn't had any problem killing enemies and that whole drama with the second travel to Tamaran and Dick issues with dating a married woman, the last one won't be a problem at this point unless that the writters really want to revive that, the first one is more tricky because i'm not sure lf Kory's stance regarding to killing at this point, althougth honestly, the batfamily should probably got over it when they had Jason in their ranks.

----------


## Badou

> You’re argument is based on your opinion of Starfire and not the reality that at her inception she worked as a model, had a more normal name, and lived with Dick Grayson. Never has her being alien been an issue except for editorial and DickXbabs shippers. Her awareness the culture was the same as any immigrant, Why would it suddenly be an issue in Bludhaven that has a hulk creature, a talking Ape, a Human Shark etc. there’s is no issue with her looks. Dick Grayson Life has always stalled when he is 24:7 Gotham unless he is Robin Or Batman. Titans will come out before both Batgirl and Nightwing and if it is better than CW and Netflix Marvel level Dick will grow stronger with the Titan Brand and eventually stick more with the public. You can’t want him to have his World and both accept he will be stuck in Gotham


I dislike the Starfire relationship just as much as I dislike the Barbara relationship. I have no favorite, but I just see Barbara having more utility as a romantic interest because you don't have the kind of hangups you have with Starfire. It is as simple as that and I think even Morrison understands. 

As Godlike said in the past Dick constantly trying to convert Starfire to fit with his standards have caused him and her to have numerous problems. Problems where he usually ended up looking like an asshole. It isn't like they were some perfect couple that didn't have their problems, and they were also together before Dick was a solo character. The NTT era was a time in comics that can't exactly be redone. Unless you want him to stop being a solo character and be a full time Titans character I don't see a romance between them working very well. Given how terrible the Titans franchise has been I hesitate in wanting him to rely more on it rather than stand on his own.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think that i'm only one that like boths relationships , althougth to be honest, with the way that romance is handle in main superhero comics today, i'm perfectly ok with Dick being single forever.


Why not let Dick be a single young guy and play the field without getting tied down by apron strings?  He doesn't have to be a cad.

----------


## TheCape

> Why not let Dick be a single young guy and play the field without getting tied down by apron strings? He doesn't have to be a cad.


Meh, i'm sort of tired of Dick's love life in general, i'm far more interested seeing him doing what he love the most, being a hero, if a writter managed to writte something like you suggest in a compelling way, i would have no problem with it, but rigth now, i think that he has better things to occupy himself with.

----------


## Hizashi

> Same here, I'm a fan of both Babs and Kori for Dick .


Count me in as well.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Same here, I'm a fan of both Babs and Kori for Dick .


I don't have a problem with either as a romantic interest, but I also do not have a particular preference for Dick. I have enjoyed reading him with Oracle, Starfire, Huntress, Jesse Quick, and Defacer. I do think if they ever decide to put him in a long term relationship it will have to be someone that is in both of his worlds.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why not let Dick be a single young guy and play the field without getting tied down by apron strings?  He doesn't have to be a cad.


Becasue then everyone starts calling him a slut

----------


## Frontier

> I don't have a problem with either as a romantic interest, but I also do not have a particular preference for Dick. I have enjoyed reading him with Oracle, Starfire, Huntress, Jesse Quick, and Defacer. I do think if they ever decide to put him in a long term relationship it will have to be someone that is in both of his worlds.


Has he and Jesse ever had a legitimate relationship? Or was it just flirting or a kiss?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has he and Jesse ever had a legitimate relationship? Or was it just flirting or a kiss?


what about clancy, raya zatanna raquel or even emily

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i521/1712/b2/f4c4299458c1.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Jason by Marcus To
http://marcusto.tumblr.com/post/1683...jason-and-dick

----------


## DurararaFTW

To me Babs being a Gotham character isn't the advantage it's held up to be. Barbara is always giving Dick **** about Batman's antics and Dick always knows where his real loyalties lie (not Babs). Kory can work around Batman being Batman just fine.

----------


## dietrich

> Becasue then everyone starts calling him a slut


Then let them. There is nothing wrong with a single dude sowing wild oats. They say slut I say free love. I'm tried of ships let Dick be single

----------


## Rac7d*

> Then let them. There is nothing wrong with a single dude sowing wild oats. They say slut I say free love. I'm tried of ships let Dick be single


Single Dick....  dick only wants to be single when he is depressed

----------


## yohyoi

I wouldn't mind Dick to be single for a while. It could help the quality of his stories; because instead of focusing on his love life, we can focus more on Dick being a hero.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Has he and Jesse ever had a legitimate relationship? Or was it just flirting or a kiss?


I think it was one of those things that it never got fully developed.

----------


## wvchemteach

> what about clancy, raya zatanna raquel or even emily


Clancy I could see growing into a Leslie Tompkins type role in Dick's life. I liked the brief time Raya was in Dick's life in Volume 3, but she ended up being a casualty during a status quo exploding crossover. Had she lived I could see her possibly being redeemed and possibly taking up the Flamebird mantle once Bette Kane became Hawkfire. I liked the Grayson/Zatanna interaction in Young Justice, and I could definitely see a possible connection between the two characters, especially if you changed some backstory around and had the two meet during Dick's circus days, but I'm not sure what she is up to during Rebirth. As for Raquel we never saw that relationship on screen in Young Justice so I would have to actually see that first, but given that DC has been reluctant to use Dakotaverse characters I doubt we ever will.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i612/1712/bd/6791a6a2d79a.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcfAeYZgUmB/

----------


## byrd156

> Has he and Jesse ever had a legitimate relationship? Or was it just flirting or a kiss?


That's a relationship that I would like to see, I would just love to see Jesse back. Especially back in her Devin Grayson costume. So many good costumes in that run, I want them back. 

Dick imo needs a relationship where they can bounce around into other books. Like Donna, Power Girl, Jesse, etc. some other meta with ties to another super team or hero that can allow them for greater adventures. Sure you can do that with Starfire but I feel like that relationship needs to be put on hold for a bit. Putting more emphasis on Dick as a day time hero opens up more meta threats which can help Dick stand out from the rest of the street level heroes. Make him a mix of Batman, Spider-Man, and Dare-devil. The best parts of these mixed together makes something that isn't really done in modern comics right now. From what I can think of at least. Dick's relationship should work towards helping him as a character and help build up whoever he is in a relationship with. This is Dick Grayson, one of DC's best characters whoever is with him needs to be put up to his level. If you did a Donna or a Jesse you could use Dick's popularity to help smooth these characters out and build more upon them to help them branch out.

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i612/1712/bd/6791a6a2d79a.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcfAeYZgUmB/


I love Fernandez' art. It's so unique in the superhero genre. Some people hate it for it's "ugliness" and weird proportions, but I don't agree with them.

----------


## byrd156

> I love Fernandez' art. It's so unique in the superhero genre. Some people hate it for it's "ugliness" and weird proportions, but I don't agree with them.


I agree, it gives a noir feel but doesn't shy away from the wackiness of comics.

----------


## oasis1313

> Then let them. There is nothing wrong with a single dude sowing wild oats. They say slut I say free love. I'm tried of ships let Dick be single


He doesn't HAVE to sleep with everybody.  Why not dinner and a movie?

----------


## yohyoi

> He doesn't HAVE to sleep with everybody.  Why not dinner and a movie?


Dick doesn't even sleep with a lot of people to label him a slut. How many one night stands did Dick have? I'm pretty sure it's as much as any average guy.

----------


## RL_Penguin

i dont know why people call dick a slut
he does nothing wrong

----------


## nightbird

> i dont know why people call dick a slut
> he does nothing wrong


That’s tumblr/twitter hypocrisy. Also DickBabs/DickKory shippers.

----------


## nightbird

> Dick doesn't even sleep with a lot of people to label him a slut. How many one night stands did Dick have? I'm pretty sure it's as much as any average guy.


Stange that people more willing to call Dick “man-whore” instead of more traditional “womanizer, playboy, ladies’ man” and etc. I mean Bruce sleeps around as much as his son.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://i056.***********/1712/68/48455b427be0.jpg[/IMG]
by Chris Samnee

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i524/1712/36/c232d1016523.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bcf4kTMAww9/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s014.***********/i326/1712/43/0d6770f48c42.jpg[/IMG]
http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/168...-garage-meeeee

----------


## jbmasta

> [IMG]http://s014.***********/i326/1712/43/0d6770f48c42.jpg[/IMG]
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/168...-garage-meeeee


Now to lose the jacket...

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s009.***********/i308/1712/e6/bcaa34269fc2.jpg[/IMG]
by Dastin Nguyen

https://twitter.com/duss005/status/9...575787521?s=17

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s009.***********/i308/1712/e6/bcaa34269fc2.jpg[/IMG]
> by Dastin Nguyen
> 
> https://twitter.com/duss005/status/9...575787521?s=17


I love his art.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://s009.***********/i308/1712/e6/bcaa34269fc2.jpg[/IMG]
> by Dastin Nguyen
> 
> https://twitter.com/duss005/status/9...575787521?s=17


If only I could buy these

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i628/1712/5f/8bebdac5c17f.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BchLSoag1os/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i521/1712/1c/b274d739e71b.jpg[/IMG]
http://za-ra-h.tumblr.com/post/16839...ently-and-iHas

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i521/1712/1c/b274d739e71b.jpg[/IMG]
> http://za-ra-h.tumblr.com/post/16839...ently-and-iHas


This is really well done.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Stange that people more willing to call Dick man-whore instead of more traditional womanizer, playboy, ladies man and etc. I mean Bruce sleeps around as much as his son.


He's not a waomanizer, and people tend to feminize Grayson for some reason, I guess being the kindest makes has givin them this impression

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i521/1712/1c/b274d739e71b.jpg[/IMG]
> http://za-ra-h.tumblr.com/post/16839...ently-and-iHas


The Nightwing costume is perfection. It can be flawlessly translated into any time period.

----------


## nightbird

> He's not a waomanizer, and people tend to feminize Grayson for some reason, I guess being the kindest makes has givin them this impression


I didn’t say he is, I just wondered why people so eager to use more harsh epithet to describe Dick’s sexual life, compared to other male heroes with the same amount of lovers and sexual interactions.

----------


## L.H.

Have you seen the Chris McKay tweet? I'm not able to give you the link, but he says that I would give us news on the movie around February.

----------


## RL_Penguin

i hope Dick will be single in Sam Humphries' Nightwing
i just dont care about his girlfriend
All I Want Is Dick Grayson

----------


## nightbird

> i hope Dick will be single in Sam Humphries' Nightwing
> i just dont care about his girlfriend
> All I Want Is Dick Grayson


I don’t any romances, so they can just focus on building his world and supporting cast.

----------


## nightbird

> Have you seen the Chris McKay tweet? I'm not able to give you the link, but he says that I would give us news on the movie around February.


Yeah, and also something about him being excited to film in Detroit (in the near future).

----------


## Godlike13

> I don’t any romances, so they can just focus on building his world and supporting cast.


Romantic interests are a basic part of world building and creating a supporting casts. Im not sure DC is interested in selling the adventures of Nightwing the celibate monk. Romantic drama is a key element to any serialized drama

----------


## Agent Z

> Romantic interests are a basic part of world building and creating a supporting casts. Im not sure DC is interested in selling the adventures of Nightwing the celibate monk. Romantic drama is a key element to any serialized drama


Unfortunately, it's also an element that gets screwed up a lot. I don't mind it when it's done well but much of the time it isn't.

----------


## Godlike13

That could be said about anything.

----------


## Frontier

Where would comics be without the romance...

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]http://s019.***********/i628/1712/5f/8bebdac5c17f.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BchLSoag1os/


Hey!  Hands OFF, Raptor!!!!!  The last thing Dick Grayson needs is to catch leprosy off you !!!!!!

----------


## byrd156

> Where would comics be without the romance...


Where would storytelling as a whole be without romance.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## jbmasta

> Romantic interests are a basic part of world building and creating a supporting casts. Im not sure DC is interested in selling the adventures of Nightwing the celibate monk. Romantic drama is a key element to any serialized drama





> Unfortunately, it's also an element that gets screwed up a lot. I don't mind it when it's done well but much of the time it isn't.


Dick can have storylines where love interests don't get involved. Too much love interest and characters get stereotyped as womaniser or dude magnet. It's like writers think Dick can't have a female friend who is just a friend anymore without some sexual tension in there. Even King and Seeley fell into this with the Futures End issue of Grayson, pairing up Dick and Helena. You can have relationships that are more brother and sister too.

----------


## Barbatos666

True but its also about age and target audience, Damian has female friends who are not love interests but Dick is a different animal. This is a young adult we're dealing with, like mentioned they're not making a film about a celibate monk.

----------


## yohyoi

I prefer if we have some 10 to 20 issues of no romance. That would be great. Dick and romance has been done too much. I love his hotness, but he is more than a pretty face.

----------


## oasis1313

> True but its also about age and target audience, Damian has female friends who are not love interests but Dick is a different animal. This is a young adult we're dealing with, like mentioned they're not making a film about a celibate monk.


Damian isn't old enough for love interests.

----------


## Godlike13

Dicks best friend use to be Donna.

----------


## jbmasta

> True but its also about age and target audience, Damian has female friends who are not love interests but Dick is a different animal. This is a young adult we're dealing with, like mentioned they're not making a film about a celibate monk.


So young adult automatically means love and physical relationships? Dick has had a lot of pagetime spent on love interests, but a purely platonic friend who's a girl doesn't go amiss. The Grayson charm is one facet of his character, it's not everything about his character. That way lies Flanderisation.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick's friends are the Titans, and for a long time his best friend was a girl. Im not sure there is another character who has had a purely platonic relationship with a friend who is a girl longer than Dick has. Now unfortunately we haven't seen Donna very much in Nightwing's solo, but maybe thats because thats suppose Titans territory (though of course Titans is kind of poop, and you wouldn't know that Dick and Donna use to be BFFs), or maybe its because Donna is unfortunately kind of a mess of a character that DC doesn't generally do very much with (which is a shame).

----------


## dietrich

> Hey!  Hands OFF, Raptor!!!!!  The last thing Dick Grayson needs is to catch leprosy off you !!!!!!


Aww that's harsh :Frown:

----------


## yohyoi

> Dicks best friend use to be Donna.


Donna has been a mess for years. The last thing we need is her falling in love because of a magic dilaridoo brought down by her dark New52 origin.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i511/1712/4c/6bad05f3e3b1.jpg[/IMG]
http://league-of-extraordinarycomics...wing-by-lkikai

----------


## nightbird

> Romantic interests are a basic part of world building and creating a supporting casts. Im not sure DC is interested in selling the adventures of Nightwing the celibate monk. Romantic drama is a key element to any serialized drama


Almost all his adventures had some romances in them. Yet the best of them never involved girls. Even Babs and Kory. I just want Dick to take a break for year or two. To see if writers can build him a solid supporting cast.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So young adult automatically means love and physical relationships? Dick has had a lot of pagetime spent on love interests, but a purely platonic friend who's a girl doesn't go amiss. The Grayson charm is one facet of his character, it's not everything about his character. That way lies Flanderisation.


Do you not watch TV? Yes young adult means love and relationships 13-39. After that it becomes about reliving your youth of love and relationships
DC is gonna give their young heartthrob a rest anytime soon

----------


## Se7en

> Donna has been a mess for years. The last thing we need is her falling in love because of a magic dilaridoo brought down by her dark New52 origin.


To be fair, Dick used to harbor a one sided crush on Donna pre-new52 which he later let go or something a long time ago.

----------


## oasis1313

> Donna has been a mess for years. The last thing we need is her falling in love because of a magic dilaridoo brought down by her dark New52 origin.


I am so sick of new and different origins for Donna Troy I could scream.  The Titans book is circling the drain in my wallet's opinion--I'd buy it for Dick's sake alone if he was treated decently--but he's just wallpaper if we're lucky.  I don't have much interest in any of the others.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I am so sick of new and different origins for Donna Troy I could scream.  The Titans book is circling the drain in my wallet's opinion--I'd buy it for Dick's sake alone if he was treated decently--but he's just wallpaper if we're lucky.  I don't have much interest in any of the others.


I am interested in most of the others, and I feel the same way you do. 

Realized a few weeks a go that a lot of my frustrations (too street level, not enough other DCU figures) at the Nightwing book are really me wanting it to compensate for how bad Titans is.

----------


## jbmasta

> Do you not watch TV? Yes young adult means love and relationships 13-39. After that it becomes about reliving your youth of love and relationships
> DC is gonna give their young heartthrob a rest anytime soon


What about friendships? Buffy or Willow and Xander for example. While there was a spark between Willow and Xander it was quickly decided they were better as friends. You don't need to read romance into every female character Dick regularly interacts with. What is wrong with a platonic girl who is a friend? Look at Arrow, and how unpopular the writing for Olicity got (even their sudden wedding was criticized in the shows). Clark and Lana on Smallville, lasting far long than it had any mileage to. Just because he's a guy and she's a girl shouldn't automatically mean infatuation.

Maybe if one of Dick's friend relationships evolves into a romantic relationship, sure that'd feel more earned.

----------


## Godlike13

Characters like Captain Amy or Svoboda have been introduced into Dick supporting cast. Not every female character Dick regularly interacts with is a love interest. Again Donna Troy was Dicks best friend for a long time. Also Buffy, Willow, and Xander all had constant other love interests through out that show. Characters were rarely without a love interest in Buffy, and love interest were a constant part of that show's supporting cast and world building.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Svoboda is easily the MVP of Seeley's supporting cast, long live She-Bullock.

----------


## The World

Agree. Initially I was pretty so-so on Svoboda but I'd kind of heartbroken if she gets caught up in the cycle of destruction of Dick's supporting cast.

----------


## nightbird

> Agree. Initially I was pretty so-so on Svoboda but I'd kind of heartbroken if she gets caught up in the cycle of destruction of Dick's supporting cast.


Humphries promised to keep using her though. 
I would like them to try bring Amy Rohrbach, but not as Dicks partner.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #37 



https://twitter.com/JorgeJimenezArt/...89253449912320

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing #37 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JorgeJimenezArt/...89253449912320


Holy 5 o'clock shadow Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## nightbird

> Nightwing #37 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JorgeJimenezArt/...89253449912320


Dick looks awesome. But I want him to get a new Robin suit.

----------


## oasis1313

> Humphries promised to keep using her though. 
> I would like them to try bring Amy Rohrbach, but not as Dick’s partner.


Amy is married.  I think Dick should start a romance with Grace (Orca) to show that even ugly girls can get the most gorgeous guy if they have a heart of gold.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick looks awesome. But I want him to get a new Robin suit.


Why,  Tim needs a new robin suit and a new name

----------


## nightbird

> Amy is married.  I think Dick should start a romance with Grace (Orca) to show that even ugly girls can get the most gorgeous guy if they have a heart of gold.


She is not ugly though, but half-animal.

----------


## nightbird

> Why,  Tim needs a new robin suit and a new name


Because this one is ugly.

----------


## oasis1313

> She is not ugly though, but half an animal.


Even more diversity in comics.  She has a human brain, she has a human heart.  It'd be like Dick dating the Bearded Lady at the circus.

----------


## nightbird

> Even more diversity in comics.  She has a human brain, she has a human heart.  It'd be like Dick dating the Bearded Lady at the circus.


You and your bizarre ideas  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s013.***********/i323/1712/0b/f4a690bdb5de.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bcpuh_dA4O9/

----------


## Alycat

> Even more diversity in comics.  She has a human brain, she has a human heart.  It'd be like Dick dating the Bearded Lady at the circus.


We had good diversity with Helena, before it got crapped on. I miss  good Helena and Tiger.

----------


## nightbird

> We had good diversity with Helena, before it got crapped on. I miss  good Helena and Tiger.


I liked Dick and Helena together, but, imo, Seeley ended them on a totally wrong note.

----------


## Godlike13

> I liked Dick and Helena together, but, imo, Seeley ended them on a totally wrong note.


That he did. Very unsatisfying how things played out there.

----------


## Badou

> Why,  Tim needs a new robin suit and a new name


Because Dick's New 52 Robin costume is shit and it is annoying that we have to keep seeing it in every story where Dick appears as Robin now. It just looks awful. Seeing it still being used kills a lot of my interest in the Humphries upcoming Robin stories because we will be forced to keep looking at it.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick looks awesome. But I want him to get a new Robin suit.


That one glimpse we have of the _Titans_ suit looks a lot better then the New 52 Robin design  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Because this one is ugly.


ugly how edna mode ?

----------


## oasis1313

> I liked Dick and Helena together, but, imo, Seeley ended them on a totally wrong note.


Yeah, I'm getting tired of everyone punching Dick's lights out just for being clueless and nice.

----------


## nightbird

> ugly how edna mode ?


Well, I’m not the only one who don’t like it.

----------


## Alycat

> I liked Dick and Helena together, but, imo, Seeley ended them on a totally wrong note.


I just don't know why DC can't treat Helena right. Or not make Dick a punching bag.

----------


## nightbird

> I just don't know why DC can't treat Helena right. Or not make Dick a punching bag.


Same. That punch was totally unnecessary and I hated it.

----------


## Alycat

> Same. That punch was totally unnecessary and I hated it.


Not to mention at odds with her character. Even with how terrible BoP has been, Helena has become much more understanding

----------


## nightbird

> Not to mention at odds with her character. Even with how terrible BoP has been, Helena has become much more understanding


I believe even in Grayson she was better than in her resent appearance in Nightwing. Dick and Helena had much more potential as couple than Seeley showed to us. I don’t understand why he did it.

----------


## Badou

If I had to guess I think the original plan was to hook them up in the Grayson series eventually, but that got cut short with Rebirth. Seeley and King didn't even close out the Grayson series as some other writers did. Then since Seeley probably knew he was leaving Nightwing and Dick's character he wanted to try and touch on some of the things he didn't get to in Grayson; one being the DickxHelena thing. Then it had to quickly end to wipe the slate somewhat clean for the new creative team coming on.

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing #37 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JorgeJimenezArt/...89253449912320


Beautiful! One of the best Nightwing covers. There is clearly an inspiration from the Black Mirror.

----------


## yohyoi

> I believe even in Grayson she was better than in her resent appearance in Nightwing. Dick and Helena had much more potential as couple than Seeley showed to us. I don’t understand why he did it.


Editorially mandated. Although half of the blame could be Seeley's; since he keeps on pushing them, knowing the the upper people won't allow it for long.

----------


## nightbird

> If I had to guess I think the original plan was to hook them up in the Grayson series eventually, but that got cut short with Rebirth. Seeley and King didn't even close out the Grayson series as some other writers did. Then since Seeley probably knew he was leaving Nightwing and Dick's character he wanted to try and touch on some of the things he didn't get to in Grayson; one being the DickxHelena thing. Then it had to quickly end to wipe the slate somewhat clean for the new creative team coming on.


Yeah, but he could’ve end it in more tasteful way.

----------


## nightbird

> Editorially mandated. Although half of the blame could be Seeley's; since he keeps on pushing them, knowing the the upper people won't allow it for long.


I blame Seeley for that ridiculous punch. 
I like Helena/Dick, maybe that’s why I’m so bitter they ended it so soon and in such mannner.

----------


## Godlike13

I’d like to believe that Seeley ultimately had more planned for Dick and Helena in his head. It seems like one of those things that was left unfinished.

----------


## Elmo

> It doesn't matter! as long as dick stays under batmans shadow and remains a sidekick and a (as raptor put it) brand extension and not a main hero his world and mytho will be about fitting batman not him. No matter if his best friends is a speedster and a amazon.
> 
> So its not that starfire doesn't fit in nightwings world (he doesn't have his own yet) its that she doesn't fit into batmans. its the main reason I dont ship dickxbabs, and I do like babs but she as a bat character keep batmans shadow over him.


Unpopular opinion here, but this is why Dick Grayson should be Batman for good. Bruce and Selina should retire and go off somewhere, maybe get their own book or something, and Dick should have the mantle permanently.

Like I said though, it's an unpopular opinion. I love Dick Grayson but I'm not a fan of Nightwing; I think he deserves the cowl more than anyone else in the Batfamily currently, and that includes Bruce Wayne himself. Dick should be a major player and a League member. I'm sick of all the stories that delve into his ties to Bruce or Gotham. He should be the new Batman with a new rogues gallery.

And yes I'm aware it's happened before, I'm saying it should have been permanent.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If I had to guess I think the original plan was to hook them up in the Grayson series eventually, but that got cut short with Rebirth. Seeley and King didn't even close out the Grayson series as some other writers did. Then since Seeley probably knew he was leaving Nightwing and Dick's character he wanted to try and touch on some of the things he didn't get to in Grayson; one being the DickxHelena thing. Then it had to quickly end to wipe the slate somewhat clean for the new creative team coming on.


That would have happened down the line anyway, Grayson was never gonna last forever and neither was HelenaxDick

----------


## Rac7d*

> Unpopular opinion here, but this is why Dick Grayson should be Batman for good. Bruce and Selina should retire and go off somewhere, maybe get their own book or something, and Dick should have the mantle permanently.
> 
> Like I said though, it's an unpopular opinion. I love Dick Grayson but I'm not a fan of Nightwing; I think he deserves the cowl more than anyone else in the Batfamily currently, and that includes Bruce Wayne himself. Dick should be a major player and a League member. I'm sick of all the stories that delve into his ties to Bruce or Gotham. He should be the new Batman with a new rogues gallery.
> 
> And yes I'm aware it's happened before, I'm saying it should have been permanent.


Selina already made  due with that she will never be 1 in bruces life gotham will be, hell he own son is usually a dice roll. He will contiue to be batman until it almost kills  him Dick will sensibly retire and have a family by then.  I dont want Dick on the justice League prime with the exception of Superman on most days the league are such assholes to their sidekicks

----------


## Godlike13

Dick isn’t retiring. Im not sure where people get that Dick would retire.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Selina already made  due with that she will never be 1 in bruces life gotham will be, hell he own son is usually a dice roll. He will contiue to be batman until it almost kills  him Dick will sensibly retire and have a family by then.  I dont want Dick on the justice League prime with the exception of Superman on most days the league are such assholes to their sidekicks


Dick/Nightwing isn't a sidekick and hasn't been for years and years though DC seems to forget that. They view him in relation to batman as Dick Grayson Batman's  protege hence why he hasn't been moved up to the big league despite him being better and more profitable than half of these JL member.

I don't know if they are willing to view Nightwing, Batman and Superman as peers which is stupid since apparently a Nightwing dressed as a Bat was A okay in the league.

It's a costume thing. Who knew the talent, record and skill don't mean jack..

----------


## Godlike13

He hasn’t been moved up to the JL because that’s Batman’s team, and creatively the JL doesn’t need Batman and Nightwing. But honestly that’s ok. Being in the JL can be overrated.
 There’s actually more opportunity for Dick with the Titans. It’s the Titans being so blatantly minor league that’s more of the problem IMO. Ideally DC should be trying get the Titans to be a big league alternative. But unfortunately the current creators on Titans just don’t frigging get it, and DC can’t seem to be bothered to really right that ship. Even though they are spending millions of dollars on a Titans TV show and all that entails.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick/Nightwing isn't a sidekick and hasn't been for years and years though DC seems to forget that. They view him in relation to batman as Dick Grayson Batman's  protege hence why he hasn't been moved up to the big league despite him being better and more profitable than half of these JL member.
> 
> I don't know if they are willing to view Nightwing, Batman and Superman as peers which is stupid since apparently a Nightwing dressed as a Bat was A okay in the league.
> 
> It's a costume thing. Who knew the talent, record and skill don't mean jack..


But the collective JL treat him and his friends like that and I hate them for it their really disrespectful

----------


## Badou

Titans will always be looked at as the junior league when they are willing to take characters from the franchise, like Cyborg, and put them on the JL as founding members and have no problems erasing their Titans history. Rather than try to build up the Titans they are willing to pick it apart and put its characters in franchises they view as more valuable. That puts a cap on how much respect the Titans will get.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

It will always amaze me how horribly DC whiffed (and continues to whiff) on capitalizing on the immense popularity of TT / TTGo.

----------


## TheCape

> It will always amaze me how horribly DC whiffed (and continues to whiff) on capitalizing on the immense popularity of TT / TTGo.


Sadly, i think that DC has a pretty poor trackrecord on team books in the ñast 12 years, with some small exceptions.

----------


## nightbird

> Dick isnt retiring. Im not sure where people get that Dick would retire.


Yeah, I dont think Dick ever showed interest in retiring.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/1a/7901825f6cb3.jpg[/IMG]
colored version.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcrtwhWlnFa/

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, I don’t think Dick ever showed interest in retiring.


In his first mini by O'Neil he tried to do that, mostly because he thougth that he wasn't following his own path and just doing what Batman trained him to do so, but the whole point was that he was wrong and he wasn't only doing for Bruce so he was back faster that you can said "Holy contrivances Batman", with his classic blue and black suit  and dishing his second costume, sadly it wasn't the end from ponytail Nightwing. Basically it was just Dick trying to stablish his independence once and for all.

----------


## RedBird

> [IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/1a/7901825f6cb3.jpg[/IMG]
> colored version.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcrtwhWlnFa/


Was already going to continue Nightwing now that a *new writer has come along, though regardless I might have picked it up for that cover alone, its beautiful! I love the texture on the suit, plus the composition of the piece.

(*Nothing against Seeley, I really liked some parts of his characterization of Dick, but the stories after the Dick and Damian team up bored me to hell)

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/1a/7901825f6cb3.jpg[/IMG]
> colored version.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcrtwhWlnFa/


My God!!! Raised by the Bat and enveloped by blue light is Nightwing. My God!!!

Please continue giving Jimenez the variant ed. covers. The guy is killing it. Better than Reis.

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/1a/7901825f6cb3.jpg[/IMG]
> colored version.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcrtwhWlnFa/


This is stunning.
Jimenez is an absolute BEAST! Seems like only recently he is finally starting getting his dues.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Sadly, i think that DC has a pretty poor trackrecord on team books in the ñast 12 years, with some small exceptions.


They also don't know how to maximise the value of their rich catalogue of IP's aside from Batman. They're just leaving money on the table all around for others to pick up. I hope the DECU teaches them about taking chances and arriving too late.

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/1a/7901825f6cb3.jpg[/IMG]
> colored version.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BcrtwhWlnFa/


Amazing cover  :Big Grin: .

Robin has some anime hair going on though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## nightbird

> Amazing cover .
> 
> Robin has some anime hair going on though .


I love his Robin hair. Theyre awesome  :Cool:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i500/1712/00/5751f752caff.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bcsa9qMg8JV/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i613/1712/6a/77ce246d4ec4.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bcql6KuA8if/
Discowing by Phil Jimenez with slightly diffirent collar



> *philjimeneznyc* Drawing the #Nightwing comic made me think a lot about his pre-52 origins --and particularly his now oft-maligned first costume with its "disco collar", for which I'll always have a soft spot. I love its design, I really do. 
> Also, I dig how overtly sexy Nightwing remains, which still seems unusual for a lot of male characters in mainstream super-hero comics nowadays (I could be wrong). Dick seems like a character who's not ashamed of an unyieldingly skin tight uniform or its bright colors. 
> Anyway, a lunch time sketch -- a little longer than planned, of Nightwing. I'll go back to my Legion sketches soon (after I've pencilled a few more pages of my Nightwing issue), but this was a fun diversion.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/d0/f3c12a114c64.jpg[/IMG]

Nightwing #37 variant cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## WonderNight

> He hasn’t been moved up to the JL because that’s Batman’s team, and creatively the JL doesn’t need Batman and Nightwing. But honestly that’s ok. Being in the JL can be overrated.
>  There’s actually more opportunity for Dick with the Titans. It’s the Titans being so blatantly minor league that’s more of the problem IMO. Ideally DC should be trying get the Titans to be a big league alternative. But unfortunately the current creators on Titans just don’t frigging get it, and DC can’t seem to be bothered to really right that ship. Even though they are spending millions of dollars on a Titans TV show and all that entails.


teams are only as big league as it's roster and the has "big hitters" A-B listers and the titans minus nightwing and flash have all C-D listers. titans needs some more higher proflie heros to be a big league team.

----------


## Frontier

I like the Batman and Robin covers  :Smile: .

----------


## Pohzee

> [IMG]http://s015.***********/i331/1712/d0/f3c12a114c64.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Nightwing #37 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


Breathtaking

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing #37 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


Dumb crotch arrow makes its return! Those weird stripes near the shoulders make it look like he is wearing a backpack too, lol.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Dumb crotch arrow makes its return! Those weird stripes near the shoulders make it look like he is wearing a backpack too, lol.


hey at least Humphries teased a more classic Robin suit with a yellow cape in the interiors from Chang. And who knows, maybe Phil Jimenez will get to make a new Robin design for an adult, college student Dick. So we'd get a classic-y design for kid Dick, the not-fan-favourite one for teen Dick, and a cool one for adult Dick that leads to his first Nightwing look. I mean, it's mostly wishful thinking of course, but at the very least we're getting one new design.

----------


## Rac7d*

i want to see that movie

----------


## yohyoi

> I like the Batman and Robin covers .


Both covers are amazing. Hopefully, Jimenez doesn't just do one cover.

----------


## Elmo

> Selina already made  due with that she will never be 1 in bruces life gotham will be, hell he own son is usually a dice roll. He will contiue to be batman until it almost kills  him Dick will sensibly retire and have a family by then.  I dont want Dick on the justice League prime with the exception of Superman on most days the league are such assholes to their sidekicks


Yeah well that's dumb in my opinion. Dick should be Batman.

----------


## yohyoi

> Yeah well that's dumb in my opinion. Dick should be Batman.


With Wally as the Flash. It's lit!

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah well that's dumb in my opinion. Dick should be Batman.


I honestly think Dick enjoys being Nightwing more then he does Batman. 

More freedom, less expectations, and not something he'd want to do unless he absolutely had to or needed too.

----------


## yohyoi

> I honestly think Dick enjoys being Nightwing more then he does Batman. 
> 
> More freedom, less expectations, and not something he'd want to do unless he absolutely had to or needed too.


There is nothing wrong with Nightwing; except when DC does not give him his dues and revert him back to a sidekick.

----------


## Pohzee

> hey at least Humphries teased a more classic Robin suit with a yellow cape in the interiors from Chang. And who knows, maybe Phil Jimenez will get to make a new Robin design for an adult, college student Dick. So we'd get a classic-y design for kid Dick, the not-fan-favourite one for teen Dick, and a cool one for adult Dick that leads to his first Nightwing look. I mean, it's mostly wishful thinking of course, but at the very least we're getting one new design.


To my understanding, there will be two Robin flashbacks. One will be set early in his career, which appears to be when he gets the new costume, and one at Hudson. Given the age of Dick in each costume from the art we’ve seen so far, Dick will start in the classic costume and the New 52 suit will be the suit he wears at Hudson.




> Both covers are amazing. Hopefully, Jimenez doesn't just do one cover.


He’s already working on another on instagram.

----------


## oasis1313

> i want to see that movie


Question:  Why does Nightwing wear skintight black leather (or Spandex)?

Answer:  Because he can.

I think it's fair to have a male comics character who has a lot of sex appeal.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I honestly think Dick enjoys being Nightwing more then he does Batman. 
> 
> More freedom, less expectations, and not something he'd want to do unless he absolutely had to or needed too.


Well said. That's why I don't want Dick being Batman.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Almost all his adventures had some romances in them. Yet the best of them never involved girls. Even Babs and Kory. I just want Dick to take a break for year or two. To see if writers can build him a solid supporting cast.


Since the Chuck Dixon they've laid the groundwork repeatedly for a strong supporting work and then destroyed in a major crossover or jettisoned by a new creative team.

You had Clancy, John Law, Hogan, Amy, and Amygdala then Devin Grayson blew up 1013 Parkthrone killing most of them off and then they sent him to New York.

Higgins had the nice beginnings of a supporting cast with the circus then killed them off with Death of the Family and sent him off to Chicago. Then with Joey, Michael, you have a nucleus of a new supporting cast, but his run ends with the destruction of his identity in Forever Evil and it is implied the duo was killed when his apartment building was blown up.

In Grayson you have Helena, Tiger, the Skull Girls, Ashemore, etc. and then powers that be send him back to being Nightwing.

New Nightwing you have again the ground work with the Run-offs, Svobada, but I doubt Humphries will make use of any of them.

I would love to see the Run-offs stick around with Svobada, perhaps bring back some oldies like Clancy (maybe make her a resident med student who ends up patching him back together when he needs it.) Bring the Skull Girls to Bludhaven with the idea they want to become Nightwing vigilantes and want him to teach them how. There are so many possibilities.

----------


## yohyoi

> Hes already working on another on instagram.


Great news! I'm buying Nightwing no matter what; but I know some people who are buying #37, because of Jimenez' cover art.

----------


## yohyoi

> Since the Chuck Dixon they've laid the groundwork repeatedly for a strong supporting work and then destroyed in a major crossover or jettisoned by a new creative team.
> 
> You had Clancy, John Law, Hogan, Amy, and Amygdala then Devin Grayson blew up 1013 Parkthrone killing most of them off and then they sent him to New York.
> 
> Higgins had the nice beginnings of a supporting cast with the circus then killed them off with Death of the Family and sent him off to Chicago. Then with Joey, Michael, you have a nucleus of a new supporting cast, but his run ends with the destruction of his identity in Forever Evil and it is implied the duo was killed when his apartment building was blown up.
> 
> In Grayson you have Helena, Tiger, the Skull Girls, Ashemore, etc. and then powers that be send him back to being Nightwing.
> 
> New Nightwing you have again the ground work with the Run-offs, Svobada, but I doubt Humphries will make use of any of them.
> ...


For Dick to truly have a solid supporting cast, he needs to stop changing status quo every five years. It's both his strength and weakness. We love to read DickBats and Agent37, but both of these stopped his Nightwing lore to cement itself as somewhat permanent.

----------


## Rac7d*

> For Dick to truly have a solid supporting cast, he needs to stop changing status quo every five years. It's both his strength and weakness. We love to read DickBats and Agent37, but both of these stopped his Nightwing lore to cement itself as somewhat permanent.


Agent 37 was  was kind of a long undercover mission for nightwing, and dickbats is always a possiblity

FEW chracracter get to be be so firmly rooted in their lore

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Well said. That's why I don't want Dick being Batman.


I want Dick to be "Better than Batman," but that'll never happen. Like, he doesn't have actually be better than him at everything, or anything really, just let his time as Batman be part of an evolution. Same with his time with and against Spyral. Nightwing is treated like it's a demotion, which is a shame, but that's just what happens when editors don't see a need in elevating a character. It's because of this mentality that the role of Robin is looked down on in and out of universe now, it used to mean a lot more when you were Robin. You were someone Batman trusted, someone capable enough to be his partner, etc. Because of other media being ashamed of its roots, we have the general public thinking an adult Robin is a joke. 

I'm hoping this kind of thinking changes with the Titans show (I doubt it will, tho, but I still want to hope). Dick evolution to Nightwing isn't saying Robin is some minor league role, no, it was about moving on from being Batman's partner to his own man. Being Robin already meant he was ready for the big leagues. That Dick is still written like he wants out of Bruce's shadow misses the point entirely, since Dick already did that a long time ago. Idk when DC will realize this, or when we'll get writers that want to highlight how capable Dick should be with the experience he's had, but I hope it happens soon.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i507/1712/62/44601010c2fd.jpg[/IMG]
Titans #19 cover by Dan Mora

----------


## Badou

The Titans getting put in timeout by the JL is hilarious to me. If Dick doesn't look at Cyborg or Aquaman and laugh at them trying to talk down to him then that would be a total disappointment.

----------


## Frontier

It is a nice cover though  :Smile: .

Cyborg actually looks kind of sad that he can't be with the Titans  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Tony Stark

> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i507/1712/62/44601010c2fd.jpg[/IMG]
> Titans #19 cover by Dan Mora


Is this a good time to pick up Titans now?

----------


## nightbird

> The Titans getting put in timeout by the JL is hilarious to me. If Dick doesn't look at Cyborg or Aquaman and laugh at them trying to talk down to him then that would be a total disappointment.


Almost everything about current Titans have been a disappointment. I will not be surprised if Abnett again downplays the team in front of League.

----------


## RedBird

> Titans #19 cover by Dan Mora


I got confused for a second and thought the finger stripes returned, the coloring on Dicks left arm looked really blue. Nice cover though  :Smile:

----------


## Badou

> It is a nice cover though .
> 
> Cyborg actually looks kind of sad that he can't be with the Titans .


It is a great cover. Dan Mora's art is just amazing. Every character he draws so well.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s008.***********/i306/1712/7c/74ceaae54828.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcOghUxAb_i/

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Is this a good time to pick up Titans now?


God no.

It is pretty terrible. The team have no purpose, they can barely handle minor threats, there is a _lot_ of forced drama. Booths art is painfully bad. Dick is written as a generic leader type, Garth a generic strong man etc. Plus, we now have the JL putting them on a timeout, which would be demeaning to the Teen Titans, let alone a team of young adults.

----------


## Aahz

> Since the Chuck Dixon they've laid the groundwork repeatedly for a strong supporting work and then destroyed in a major crossover or jettisoned by a new creative team.


Actually he had allready a (not that strong) support cast during his time in collage in the Bronze Age, and those characters have also never appeared again after wards.

----------


## TheCape

> Since the Chuck Dixon they've laid the groundwork repeatedly for a strong supporting work and then destroyed in a major crossover or jettisoned by a new creative team.
> 
> You had Clancy, John Law, Hogan, Amy, and Amygdala then Devin Grayson blew up 1013 Parkthrone killing most of them off and then they sent him to New York.
> 
> Higgins had the nice beginnings of a supporting cast with the circus then killed them off with Death of the Family and sent him off to Chicago. Then with Joey, Michael, you have a nucleus of a new supporting cast, but his run ends with the destruction of his identity in Forever Evil and it is implied the duo was killed when his apartment building was blown up.
> 
> In Grayson you have Helena, Tiger, the Skull Girls, Ashemore, etc. and then powers that be send him back to being Nightwing.
> 
> New Nightwing you have again the ground work with the Run-offs, Svobada, but I doubt Humphries will make use of any of them.
> ...


Yup, Dick suffers from the "Wonder Woman Syndrome"  :Stick Out Tongue: , none of the attempts to create a world around don't seem to stick.

----------


## WonderNight

See I told you nightwing/wonder woman fit :Embarrassment:  make it happen dc :Cool:

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> God no.
> 
> It is pretty terrible. The team have no purpose, they can barely handle minor threats, there is a _lot_ of forced drama. Booths art is painfully bad. Dick is written as a generic leader type, Garth a generic strong man etc. Plus, *we now have the JL putting them on a timeout*, which would be demeaning to the Teen Titans, let alone a team of young adults.


Wow, really hard to believe this.

----------


## WonderNight

not really, DC still views nightwing and his generation as sidekicks. which is dick biggest problem of all. dickbat and agent37 didn't have this problem.

----------


## Fergus

Agent 37 burns Lex and Kite Man

----------


## Fergus

Robins

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is this a good time to pick up Titans now?


The arc just completeed s if you wanted to get caught up
Its kinda like MTVS the real world combined with superheros.

Their an anger about them being Local in caomparison to the JL but that what they are suppose to be, to fill the need when the time arises. So they get to be more laid back and fun. They been dealing with less external conflic and more internal, considering so many of thease chracters have been locked away developing them as chracters now is a must. Thats not a bad thing. Donna never been solid and WW ignores her so figure ut who she is now is nice.  They do seem to regress to teenagers when they  get together I personally find it  funny and I think it speaks to their familarity with one another since they have know each other since.  Garth and Roy are defintly more serious when guest staring in theor mentors solos.  Lilth is an odd piece, her purpose on the team is necessary but she feels distant sometimes. Karen is also seems placed for diversity, I would trade for Starfire honestly in a heartbeat

----------


## Frontier

> Agent 37 burns Lex and Kite Man


This seems kind of in bad-taste in light of the recent reveals about Kite-Man...

----------


## Fergus

> This seems kind of in bad-taste in light of the recent reveals about Kite-Man...


I don't acknowledge the Kingunity that's going on in Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> teams are only as big league as it's roster and the has "big hitters" A-B listers and the titans minus nightwing and flash have all C-D listers. titans needs some more higher proflie heros to be a big league team.


The thing is just, that there aren't really many "higher profile heroes" that you could put on titans (especially if you don't want to bring in "siblings" of the current members).

The only ones can thing of are Kyle Rayner (or alternatively maybe one of the new Lanterns) and maybe Supergirl (the current version might be a little bit to young), everybody else is either to young, to old or also not really much more popular than the classic Titans (and having the classics together gives the whole thing at least some additional nostalgic value).

----------


## yohyoi

> Yup, Dick suffers from the "Wonder Woman Syndrome" , none of the attempts to create a world around don't seem to stick.


Dick does have a Wonder Woman Syndrome. It's so weird for these characters, even with hundreds of solo issues, to not have their own permanent place and lore.

----------


## Godlike13

> not really, DC still views nightwing and his generation as sidekicks. which is dick biggest problem of all. dickbat and agent37 didn't have this problem.


Dick was Agent 37 in Titans Hunt and Batman and Robin Eternal.




> Dick does have a Wonder Woman Syndrome. It's so weird for these characters, even with hundreds of solo issues, to not have their own permanent place and lore.


Except here we are 10+ years later with Bludhaven.

----------


## yohyoi

> Except here we are 10+ years later with Bludhaven.


It took a while to get back in Bludhaven. We aren't even sure if DC will sideline Bludhaven again, so Dick could do other stuff or be DickBats/Agent37 again. If we do 4 years without removing Dick from Bludhaven, then maybe we can say Bludhaven is there to stay.

----------


## oasis1313

> It took a while to get back in Bludhaven. We aren't even sure if DC will sideline Bludhaven again, so Dick could do other stuff or be DickBats/Agent37 again. If we do 4 years without removing Dick from Bludhaven, then maybe we can say Bludhaven is there to stay.


I liked Bludhaven better when Chemo spit on it.

----------


## Pohzee

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
Interview with Humphries.

Takeaways:

-Some people here guessed right. Dicks job will be *spoilers:*
a gym owner and trainer.
*end of spoilers*

-More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring, he personally views him as a Red Lantern. That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info weve been given.

----------


## nightbird

Well, yeah, Dick has a lot of anger in him, but I don’t think to the point of getting Red ring instead of Blue or Green.

----------


## Rac7d*

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
> Interview with Humphries.
> 
> Takeaways:
> 
> -Some people here guessed right. Dicks job will be *spoilers:*
> a gym owner and trainer.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> -More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring, he personally views him as a Red Lantern. That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info weve been given.


That fits, also it means alot of fanservice

----------


## Elmo

> not really, DC still views nightwing and his generation as sidekicks. which is dick biggest problem of all. dickbat and agent37 didn't have this problem.


He should be Batman

----------


## Badou

I don't know if I should laugh or cry that we are getting the gym thing. I really didn't think they would be that uninspired and lazy. It isn't even new.

----------


## Godlike13

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
> Interview with Humphries.
> 
> Takeaways:
> 
> -Some people here guessed right. Dick’s job will be *spoilers:*
> a gym owner and trainer.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> -More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring, he personally views him as a Red Lantern. That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info we’ve been given.


Thats incredibly disappointing.

----------


## Barbatos666

I'm interested in what Humphries wants to bring to the table concerning Bludhaven as well as the villain and we get to see Dick's time as Robin, so all that's a plus. As for the job, why not make him a celebrity businessman whose business revolves around entertainment or something. These lowkey jobs they keep saddling him with are stupid and boring. Working at Desmond's casino atleast served a story purpose. He was raised by Bruce Wayne and was an entertainer dammit.

----------


## Badou

Only thing I'm looking forward to is the Robin issues. I feel like that Batman and Robin Annual issue about Tusk is the only good Dick as Robin story we've gotten since the New 52 started.

----------


## yohyoi

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
> Interview with Humphries.
> 
> Takeaways:
> 
> -Some people here guessed right. Dicks job will be *spoilers:*
> a gym owner and trainer.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> -More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring, he personally views him as a Red Lantern. That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info weve been given.


The job totally fits Dick. I think even Higgins had the same opinions.

Dick has always been an everyman; which is why he is THE Robin, so we could identify ourselves in him. Since Tim is going to the looney bin in the past issues, Dick is truly the most relatable Robin. Also Dick is not a person who strives for money and wealth, not like Bruce Wayne. I love him for it.

I am excited for his run. People who read it already, said it's great. COME FASTER WEDNESDAY!!!

----------


## Badou

Lol, I can't believe there are actually people who are excited to see Dick as a gym teacher again. What people like/dislike really baffles me sometimes.

----------


## dietrich

> He should be Batman


He shouldn't rubbish like that is why Nightwing is seen as 2nd tier. Bruce is Batman, Terry is Batman. Dick is Nightwing. He is his own hero not some sidekick waiting for his mentor to kick the bucket.

So we're back to the gym again. We get it he's bendy and fit at least this time he owns it but really wish they would move him away from this cliched job.

----------


## dietrich

> Only thing I'm looking forward to is the Robin issues. I feel like that Batman and Robin Annual issue about Tusk is the only good Dick as Robin story we've gotten since the New 52 started.


I feel you. i think that's what I most looking forward to.  i need modern stories of Dick as Robin

----------


## TheCape

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
> Interview with Humphries.
> 
> Takeaways:
> 
> -Some people here guessed right. Dicks job will be *spoilers:*
> a gym owner and trainer.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> -More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring, he personally views him as a Red Lantern. That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info weve been given.


I always thougth that green fits Dick far more than red or blue.

----------


## yohyoi

> Lol, I can't believe there are actually people who are excited to see Dick as a gym teacher again. What people like/dislike really baffles me sometimes.


We all have our opinions  :Smile:

----------


## Badou

> We all have our opinions


True. Can't fault people for liking different things, even if I don't understand them.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lol, I can't believe there are actually people who are excited to see Dick as a gym teacher again. What people like/dislike really baffles me sometimes.


what people dislike baffles, me
I kind of appreicaite,w hile smart, that college wasnt for dick, not that thaey would even give him the time to finsh if he wanted to
it makes him diffrent from the rest of the in batfam who are all geinuses, so what if he is a personal trainer,   hes is helping making the world a more beaautiful place

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRW1Wu5rGo
> Interview with Humphries.
> 
> Takeaways:
> 
> -Some people here guessed right. Dicks job will be *spoilers:*
> a gym owner and trainer.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> -More interestingly, Humphries said that while he believes that Dick _would_ probably get a Blue Lantern ring,* he personally views him as a Red Lantern.* That probably gives us more insight into his take on the character than any other promotional info weve been given.


Well, this is probably gonna suck.

----------


## TheCape

Man, considering the amount of cynism on this thread, i wonder if people enjoy anything that Dick does at this point  :Frown: . But i guest that every fandom has his period of darkness.

For a happier matter, i wanted to ask, who are your favorite writters for Dick Grayson? (like Robin, Batman, Nightwing or the freaking Target if you want  :Stick Out Tongue: ). Considering that we are getting prepare for a change it just seems adequated.

----------


## Pohzee

> For a happier matter, i wanted to ask, who are your favorite writters for Dick Grayson? (like Robin, Batman, Nightwing or the freaking Target if you want ). Considering that we are getting prepare for a change it just seems adequated.


Robin the Boy Wonder: Scott Peterson, Chuck Dixon
Robin the Teen Wonder: Mike Friedrich
Nightwing: Marv Wolfman
Batman: Scott Snyder
Agent 37: Tom King

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind...

----------


## Frontier

> Man, considering the amount of cynism on this thread, i wonder if people enjoy anything that Dick does at this point . But i guest that every fandom has his period of darkness.


I want to see how Humphries handles it before I make any judgements. 

Off-hand I agree with the comment that this will probably be used as an excuse for a lot of Dick fanservice.




> For a happier matter, i wanted to ask, who are your favorite writters for Dick Grayson? (like Robin, Batman, Nightwing or the freaking Target if you want ). Considering that we are getting prepare for a change it just seems adequated.


Robin: BTAS/_The Batman/Young Justice_
Nightwing: Chuck Dixon/Tim Seeley
Batman: Grant Morrison/Scott Snyder
Agent 37: Tom King/Tim Seeley

----------


## Godlike13

I thought the things he said about the Judge sounded interesting, and the boy who hated Robin lol. And while the job choice might sound super uninspired the League of Limousine Assasins does not. Also the ring choice. I liked his answer. I liked his thinking there. Don’t go with the expected, go with the unexpected.

Actually wait. By gym I was thinking gymnastics gym, not a fitness gym. I don’t even know what to think about that, lol. Hopefully he doesn’t start calling people bro and try to push smoothies on them.

----------


## TheCape

861708-20090618ddr.jpg
The test that every Batman must face in the future.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> For a happier matter, i wanted to ask, who are your favorite writters for Dick Grayson? (like Robin, Batman, Nightwing or the freaking Target if you want ). Considering that we are getting prepare for a change it just seems adequated.


Robin: this one is hard to narrow down to specific runs beyond Wolfman/Perez on NTT. It's his most iconic role and he was in it for so long that it goes beyond any specific takes. I guess after NTT, I'm "closest" to B:TAS because that was my first exposure to him.
Nightwing: Wolfman when he's with the Titans, Seeley when he's on his own
Batman II: Morrison
Agent 37: Seeley and King

----------


## Pohzee

I could see him training Ted Ryerstad unwittingly.

----------


## Godlike13

> I could see him training Ted Ryerstad unwittingly.


That actually could work.

----------


## Badou

> what people dislike baffles, me
> I kind of appreicaite,w hile smart, that college wasnt for dick, not that thaey would even give him the time to finsh if he wanted to
> it makes him diffrent from the rest of the in batfam who are all geinuses, so what if he is a personal trainer,   hes is helping making the world a more beaautiful place


I just don't believe he has any desire to run a gym. This is a guy who grew up in a circus, was Robin to Batman, lead a group of young superheroes, dated a alien space princess, became Batman, and was a spy for a secret agency. What part of his life indicates that he would want to put the time in to run a gym? Him making sure people keep up with their gym memberships or how he will pay off his bank loan for buying the gym should board him to tears.

Edit: The only way it makes sense to me is that he is only doing it for some reason in a way to solve a case or something along those lines I suppose.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

It's not exciting or anything, but I don't see why Dick _wouldn't_ want to open up a fitness gym. I think it'd be pretty funny to see him giving advice and generally training the people of Bludhaven, lol. Like, it'd give the more criminally inclined people, like in the older part of the city, a place to go and something to do. And the neon part would probably have people with too much money or time on their hands and they'd get some discipline, idk. 

From Dick's perspective, it'd give him more flexible hours, a way to interact with other people, a way to help other people live a healthier lifestyle, etc. I feel like Dick would find it both fun and annoying to train regular people, so I don't know if I would say Dick would actively _want_ to open a gym, tho. Although maybe it'd give a reason for why a random dude like him is ripped without the easy answer being "he's a superhero." And as far as being an entrepreneur goes, I think working out is the most natural skill for him to base his business on aside from being a master detective.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick himself needs somewhere to work out i guess.

----------


## Ascended

Gym owner huh? 

??

Okay. Sure, why not?

----------


## oasis1313

> Gym owner huh? 
> 
> ??
> 
> Okay. Sure, why not?


Wasn't that in "Batman Beyond"?

----------


## Ascended

> Wasn't that in "Batman Beyond"?


I have no idea. I never watched the whole show. Not much of a cartoon guy, though my kids have ensured I've seen more than I wanted to.

Justice League Action is great, btw.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Gym owner huh? 
> 
> ??
> 
> Okay. Sure, why not?

----------


## Godlike13

It’s not gymnastics gym but a fitness gym.

----------


## yohyoi

> 


Those are some damn good glutes. I'll pay this guy to train me.

----------


## Rakiduam

Super lame. It's really looking like it will be the less ambitious run ever.

----------


## yohyoi

Come on guys and gals. Be more positive  :Smile:

----------


## Barbatos666

Well the job thing isn't something to get positive about imo but hopefully the other areas mentioned by Humphries get the lions share of the focus.

----------


## oasis1313

I guess it's better than bar-tending.  Or street-sweeping.  Or riding on the garbage truck.

----------


## yohyoi

> Well the job thing isn't something to get positive about imo but hopefully the other areas mentioned by Humphries get the lions share of the focus.


Nah. We will get 4 pages of 9x9 panels with Dick explaining his exercise routine. Hahahaha.....

----------


## oasis1313

> Nah. We will get 4 pages of 9x9 panels with Dick explaining his exercise routine. Hahahaha.....


No--four 9x9 pages of Dick DEMONSTRATING his exercise routine . . . . with assistance from John and Juan.

----------


## Ascended

> 


Well, "gym teacher" is a different thing than "gym owner" but yeah. 

Dick as a teacher strikes me as very fitting. Dick being a small business owner who runs a gym? Not so far outside the realm of his character, but still feels a bit odd.

----------


## TheCape

If i remenber correctly Dick was directing or owned some sort of business in the 70s, during his college days and Humphries seem to be bringing a lot of that era back, so it doesn't sound so bad on paper.

----------


## Ascended

So totally unrelated note here.

On our way to Last Jedi today, the wife and I were fancasting the DCU (we get *really* damn bored driving) and we've decided that Ben Barnes, the actor who plays Billy Russo in Netflix's Punisher, could make a great Nightwing. He's pretty, he's got the right body type (he'd have to hit the gym but who doesn't), and he's a skilled actor if Punisher is any indication. He's even Romani! 

He's 36, according to Google, which is old for Nightwing. But with an older Batman established in the DCEU it's not *as* bad, and the dude could pass for being much younger.

----------


## Frontier

> If i remenber correctly Dick was directing or owned some sort of business in the 70s, during his college days and Humphries seem to be bringing a lot of that era back, so it doesn't sound so bad on paper.


Wasn't he barely 18-19 in the 70's? 

I'd guess that was probably the "Teen Wonder" days.

----------


## Pohzee

He studied business or economics, but never ran a business himself as far as I am aware of. He was a part of his school paper and and outreach program for young kids.

----------


## Ascended

> He studied business or economics, but never ran a business himself as far as I am aware of. He was a part of his school paper and and outreach program for young kids.


Huh, I didnt know that. That's cool.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s008.***********/i303/1712/d8/f4dee5ae30cd.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s018.***********/i502/1712/c4/d8c6ea0bb48a.jpg[/IMG]
https://mobile.twitter.com/aonolime

----------


## dietrich

> Man, considering the amount of cynism on this thread, i wonder if people enjoy anything that Dick does at this point . But i guest that every fandom has his period of darkness.
> 
> For a happier matter, i wanted to ask, who are your favorite writters for Dick Grayson? (like Robin, Batman, Nightwing or the freaking Target if you want ). Considering that we are getting prepare for a change it just seems adequated.


Nightwing : Seeley and Tomasi
Agent 37 : Seeley and King
Batman : Morrison and Synder
Robin : Dixon [Though I will add that I have a lot yet to discover Dick's Robin and Nightwing entire publication history going back]

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]http://s008.***********/i303/1712/d8/f4dee5ae30cd.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]http://s018.***********/i502/1712/c4/d8c6ea0bb48a.jpg[/IMG]
> https://mobile.twitter.com/aonolime


Nice. Love the mix of blues.

----------


## OversizedLoad

NIGHTWING #40 
Written by Sam Humphries, art and cover by Bernard Chang, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.

"The Untouchable: Deep Dive." He's already been shot and stabbed, and there's no end in sight for Nightwing as he's forced to face off against the League of Limousine Assassins in the Silver Springs Casino! Meanwhile, the Judge's rise to power culminates with his most explosive move yet.
32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 7. 

nightwing40.jpg

NIGHTWING #41
Written by Sam Humphries, art and cover by Bernard Chang, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.

"The Untouchable -- Final Judgment." Nightwing has twice failed to stop the Judge -- and if he falters a third time, Dick Grayson may never recover! "The Untouchable" reaches its pulse-pounding conclusion as Nightwing corners his nemesis. Will the Judge find a way to corrupt the most incorruptible man in Bludhaven, or will Nightwing find a way to bring hope back to his adopted city and stop the Judge's reign of terror?
32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 21.

----------


## Pohzee

Funny these make it here before anywhere else

----------


## yohyoi

The Untouchable looks to be 7 issues. 1 more day to go. Best wishes to Humphries, Chang and Marcelo Maiolo on their run.

What do you think they will do after The Untouchable? Will Humphries introduce another new villain or will he reuse Blockbuster, Raptor, etc. for the next arc? It will be funny and kinda ironic if he does a globetrotting arc.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Nightwing : Seeley and Tomasi
> Agent 37 : Seeley and King
> Batman : Morrison and Synder
> Robin : Dixon [Though I will add that I have a lot yet to discover Dick's Robin and Nightwing entire publication history going back]


Nightwing: Dixon and Seeley
Agent 37: Seeley and King
Batman: Morrison and Snyder
Robin: Dixon and Wolfman

----------


## yohyoi

Dixon > everyone else. Tomasi was nice, but he isn't better than Higgins.

----------


## WonderNight

> The Untouchable looks to be 7 issues. 1 more day to go. Best wishes to Humphries, Chang and Marcelo Maiolo on their run.
> 
> What do you think they will do after The Untouchable? Will Humphries introduce another new villain or will he reuse Blockbuster, Raptor, etc. for the next arc? It will be funny and kinda ironic if he does a globetrotting arc.


I want lady vic next.

----------


## yohyoi

> I want lady vic next.


Lady Vic exist in Rebirth Bludhaven. She had a call-out in a past issue. She could be somehow related to the League of Limousine Assassins. Damn, even the assassins in Bludhaven are fancy.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Lady Vic exist in Rebirth Bludhaven. She had a call-out in a past issue. She could be somehow related to the League of Limousine Assassins. Damn, even the assassins in Bludhaven are fancy.


I asked slyly at Sam about Lady Vic being apart of the LoLA. He avoided the Lady Vic part.

----------


## nightbird

[img]http://s61.***********/i174/1712/11/9960d1b4e801.png[/img]

[img]http://s019.***********/i614/1712/23/6f43d4744b13.jpg[/img]

Wally and Dick Titans #18

----------


## Barbatos666

Looks like Nightwing (and Batgirl) will be joining the TMNT crossover.

----------


## nightbird

[img]http://s018.***********/i521/1712/87/8b9e4db81558.jpg[/img]
dick and wally

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

A tease from Tom King:

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569

----------


## Pohzee

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569

----------


## nightbird

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


for how long though...

----------


## Alycat

Don't play games with my heart King.

----------


## yohyoi

> I asked slyly at Sam about Lady Vic being apart of the LoLA. He avoided the Lady Vic part.


We got him. Good work detectives.  :Cool:

----------


## yohyoi

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


DICKBAT, you say?! THE DICKBAT?!

Damian to the Batmobile!

----------


## Frontier

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


So...flashback?

----------


## yohyoi

> So...flashback?


Flashback or not, it will be great. It's King after all.

I'm more intrigued why DickBat will be used.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


I don't care for seeing DickBats anywhere anymore. Being Batman is overrated. 

Anywho! 

Ale Garza Nightwing x Starfire!

----------


## Frontier

> Anywho! 
> 
> Ale Garza Nightwing x Starfire!


I like it  :Big Grin: !

----------


## L.H.

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


Well, someone has to watch over Gotham during the honeymoon... 


Nice DickKory art

----------


## Pohzee

Character designs by Chang https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc5aJa6gZbm/

Hullo, not-Helena.

----------


## Ascended

....Does Guppy have a thin little pencil mustache? Like, a cheap low level mob weasel mustache?

That's amazing.

----------


## TheCape

> A tease from Tom King:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/943147814456045569


That sounds interesting.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s014.***********/i326/1712/58/161d2cfd308d.jpg[/IMG]

Bruce and Dick 
https://twitter.com/marcusto/status/...881082881?s=17

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i622/1712/8e/490bf4c5eedc.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s019.***********/i644/1712/3a/a56478a0a694.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s02.***********/i175/1712/2d/cf2ce6ffc713.jpg[/IMG]

http://tuluxi.tumblr.com/post/168747781652

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i629/1712/52/4fc1d15d68b1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s017.***********/i422/1712/53/967a771c4200.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s002.***********/i198/1712/c3/140bf0abbda3.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i624/1712/f4/df8aae5e1e41.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://s16.***********/i190/1712/8d/95978513608f.jpg[/IMG]
http://tuluxi.tumblr.com/post/168747781652

----------


## Pohzee

Art from issue 36 from this interview with the Hollywood Reporter
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...legacy-1069713


Here's a bonus interview with Batman-News. 
https://batman-news.com/2017/12/20/e...-nightwing-35/

One of the nice things about new creative teams is that they are more likely to go out and promote the series.

*Edit:* And no plans for the Runoffs! Hallelujah!

----------


## oasis1313

Who wants to place odds that Dick Grayson running a gym will be about as successful as Dick Grayson running Haly's Circus?

----------


## yohyoi

Sam Humphries, Bernard Chang and Marcelo Maiolo. Good job guys. What a way to close out 2017  :Big Grin: 

Onward to 2018 and lots of new Dick Grayson stories to be told. Whether Dick is Robin, Nightwing or Batman, may he soar high!

----------


## yohyoi

> Art from issue 36 from this interview with the Hollywood Reporter
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...legacy-1069713
> 
> 
> Here's a bonus interview with Batman-News. 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/12/20/e...-nightwing-35/
> 
> One of the nice things about new creative teams is that they are more likely to go out and promote the series.
> 
> *Edit:* And no plans for the Runoffs! Hallelujah!


Dick never gives up.

----------


## RandomFalls

But will Helena be showing up? I'm hoping that Humphries can fix the god awful mess Seeley made of them.

----------


## Pohzee

Given that Dick is training a black woman named Helen who looks very similar to Helen(A), I think that would be bery confusing.

----------


## oasis1313

> But will Helena be showing up? I'm hoping that Humphries can fix the god awful mess Seeley made of them.


Once a woman beats a guy up, the relationship should be beyond repair.  Wouldn't it be cool if Ed Brubaker took on Nightwing?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Who wants to place odds that Dick Grayson running a gym will be about as successful as Dick Grayson running Haly's Circus?


Lol, my thoughts exact

----------


## RedBird

> Here's a bonus interview with Batman-News. 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/12/20/e...-nightwing-35/


Haha, loved the references to the mullet, plus the comparison between it and the gym hideout. Business in the front, Nightwing in the back. 




> And no plans for the Runoffs! Hallelujah!


 Thank God! Though I am glad that he kept Detective Svoboda from Seeleys run, she seemed alright.  :Smile:

----------


## yohyoi

> Lol, my thoughts exact


No worries. I already started counting.

Dick Grayson: Job Hopper. No job he can't do. No job he can hold.

----------


## InanimateCrbnRod

Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue? I liked his voice for Nightwing okay, but not for Dick at all. Also I'm disappointed he won't be using the run-offs. How can Dick build a supporting cast if with each new team they don't use the characters introduced by the previous writer. (At least he's using Svoboda). Idk it feels way too much like the Dixon Nightwing to me, which we have plenty of stories of.

----------


## dan12456

> Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue? I liked his voice for Nightwing okay, but not for Dick at all. Also I'm disappointed he won't be using the run-offs. How can Dick build a supporting cast if with each new team they don't use the characters introduced by the previous writer. (At least he's using Svoboda). Idk it feels way too much like the Dixon Nightwing to me, which we have plenty of stories of.


Yeah it didn't work for me at all. And I love Humphries' Green Lanterns (and I'll definitely give him more issues to convince me). But I found the Dick scenes to be off as well, and every character that wasn't Dick was completely uninteresting. Including the judge.

----------


## InanimateCrbnRod

Okay great so I'm not crazy

----------


## yohyoi

You can think it's bad. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is no definite Dick Grayson for everyone. In the end, it's how much we enjoy comics, well for me.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue? I liked his voice for Nightwing okay, but not for Dick at all. Also I'm disappointed he won't be using the run-offs. How can Dick build a supporting cast if with each new team they don't use the characters introduced by the previous writer. (At least he's using Svoboda). Idk it feels way too much like the Dixon Nightwing to me, which we have plenty of stories of.


I agree but the art is cool.

----------


## chief12d

> Am I the only one who really didn't like this issue? I liked his voice for Nightwing okay, but not for Dick at all. Also I'm disappointed he won't be using the run-offs. How can Dick build a supporting cast if with each new team they don't use the characters introduced by the previous writer. (At least he's using Svoboda). Idk it feels way too much like the Dixon Nightwing to me, which we have plenty of stories of.


The Run-Offs are amazing characters, so it's kinda sad to see them not be used. If Dick is gonna go the conventional hero route (instead of being a super spy) he needs people like them. Oh, and I don't like the fact that he runs a gym now, feels a little mundane  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> You can think it's bad. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is no definite Dick Grayson for everyone. In the end, it's how much we enjoy comics, well for me.


Exactly. Humphries's Nightwing is right up my alley, tbh. As long as there's a good variety to his arcs, I'm good. The big epics and all that is supposed to come from the Titans book, so I just hope we can get a new direction for that book soon...

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Run-Offs are amazing characters, so it's kinda sad to see them not be used. If Dick is gonna go the conventional hero route (instead of being a super spy) he needs people like them. Oh, and I don't like the fact that he runs a gym now, feels a little mundane


like be a reporter?

----------


## chief12d

> like be a reporter?


In all fairness, I don't care much for Superman or Spiderman's occupations either  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

> In all fairness, I don't care much for Superman or Spiderman's occupations either


well what do you want him to be?

----------


## Badou

The run-offs were dull. I'm fine if we can forget about them. I get what Seeley was trying to do with them, but I don't think they worked. 

I felt the first issue of Humphries run was serviceable. I really disliked Humphries X-Men stuff so my expectations were low. The art really helped it I think, but it just felt like your standard Nightwing run. Nothing really stood out to me about it. The Robin issues are the main thing I'm really looking forward to at the moment.

----------


## Frontier

I'll miss the Run-Offs...

----------


## WonderNight

Hey guys what happened to nightwing in metal? Is he still apart of metal.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I don’t think he will be seen again or just show for a cameo like in endgame where he is a decoy Batman

----------


## Tony Stark

I enjoyed the first issue. I gave the writing about a C, C-, but the art was an A+. I hope Chang stays on for the long haul.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah so Max Landis is probably not going to get to write that Agent of Batman story with Dick and Clark, which sucks a lot since I was looking forward to it, but I also wouldn't want to support him if DC did go forward with the project, so that's that. 

I just hope someone else gets interested in telling Superman and Robin team up stories so we can get something cool like that one day.

----------


## Badou

> Hey guys what happened to nightwing in metal? Is he still apart of metal.


He might show up again, but I wouldn't expect him to do much. Metal is more of a Bruce and JL event I think. After he and Superman had that disagreement where Superman wanted to go and try and save Bruce and Dick didn't think they should Dick sort of got written out. Superman went and saved Bruce and the other JL character all went to do other important things. Dick went back to sulking about failing to save Gotham. Not really sure where he went though.

----------


## oasis1313

> Hey guys what happened to nightwing in metal? Is he still apart of metal.


They're trying to avoid him.

----------


## yohyoi

> Hey guys what happened to nightwing in metal? Is he still apart of metal.


He is with Damian and Ollie. Felicity probably met them in an alternate universe and used her godlike hacking powers to trap them. OLIBER DU NUT LIBBB MEEEEE!!!

----------


## oasis1313

> He is with Damian and Ollie. Felicity probably met them in an alternate universe and used her godlike hacking powers to trap them. OLIBER DU NUT LIBBB MEEEEE!!!


There just isn't enough Dick in the world.

----------


## Godlike13

Where are the Titans in Metal, that’s my question. Big world crisis event are they are nowhere to be seen. Not even in the tie-ins. Teen Titans are.

----------


## L.H.

I think we are going to see again Dick, Damian and Oliver before the ending. They can still play a role

----------


## oasis1313

> I think we are going to see again Dick, Damian and Oliver before the ending. They can still play a role


It'd be nice, but I think they've been forgotten by everyone except the fans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Where are the Titans in Metal, that’s my question. Big world crisis event are they are nowhere to be seen. Not even in the tie-ins. Teen Titans are.


is that a world crisis, if so woulndt every hero jump on the sceane
Dont do the titans like that

----------


## Godlike13

Yes its a world crisis, and pretty much every hero has gathered. Even some villains.

----------


## yohyoi

I know Dick is "evil" in the New Order, but I'm enjoying the story these past months. He does make a great morally grey antagonist/ villain protagonist. Reminds me of politics.

----------


## Badou

Getting involved in a world crisis would get in the way of them eating pizza and talking about how such good friends they all are. Priorities first.

----------


## oasis1313

> Getting involved in a world crisis would get in the way of them eating pizza and talking about how such good friends they all are. Priorities first.


And don' forget that Donna needs a new origin thought of every day.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b19/1712/4a/b31b019ebfa1.jpg[/IMG]
http://thefrikist.tumblr.com/post/16...ere-founded-in

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d32/1712/75/ccdda93cf8bf.jpg[/IMG]
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...rean-art-style

----------


## wvchemteach

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d32/1712/75/ccdda93cf8bf.jpg[/IMG]
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...rean-art-style


Very Nice!!!

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d32/1712/75/ccdda93cf8bf.jpg[/IMG]
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...rean-art-style


This is adorable.  I love the topknot hair.  We need a Family anime book drawn by this person.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b24/1712/be/03ba43a29427.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdOnIJXlDQL/

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b24/1712/be/03ba43a29427.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BdOnIJXlDQL/


Nightwing in baggy pants?

----------


## Rac7d*

any news on YJ 3

----------


## wvchemteach

> any news on YJ 3


I've heard nothing specific about Nightwing. But they have announced a few new characters joining the Team.

----------


## nightbird

> Nightwing in baggy pants?


In his ninja pants =)

----------


## SpiderWing20

YA know going back and reading Grayson I really miss his relationship with Midnighter. King and Seeley built it up well

----------


## WonderNight

> YA know going back and reading Grayson I really miss his relationship with Midnighter. King and Seeley built it up well


Well it's sad that dick lost everything from his time in grayson. at least one of the skull girls or something from grayson, it's like it grayson a.k.a dick best solo run didn't even happen. :Frown:

----------


## SpiderWing20

> Well it's sad that dick lost everything from his time in grayson. at least one of the skull girls or something from grayson, it's like it grayson a.k.a dick best solo run didn't even happen.


Thats how it feels and its such a shame. Grayson is a lot like the Superior Spider-Man, lightning in a bottle

----------


## Rac7d*

> YA know going back and reading Grayson I really miss his relationship with Midnighter. King and Seeley built it up well


Its to bad midnighter could not become his own character,

----------


## Ivy_b

> YA know going back and reading Grayson I really miss his relationship with Midnighter. King and Seeley built it up well


I miss that dynamic too. And just Midnighter existing in the comics, since I haven't seen him in anything since his miniseries with Apollo.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Well it's sad that dick lost everything from his time in grayson. at least one of the skull girls or something from grayson, it's like it grayson a.k.a dick best solo run didn't even happen.


I think  they ought to put all four Skull Girls in Bludhaven as their own vigilante team that Dick is training.

----------


## SpiderWing20

> I think  they ought to put all four Skull Girls in Bludhaven as their own vigilante team that Dick is training.


I really miss Lotti Duff, her personality always stole the show. I hate the spyral arc was so short, I miss the spy stuff in general. Hopefully we get something related to it in the future

----------


## wvchemteach

> I really miss Lotti Duff, her personality always stole the show. I hate the spyral arc was so short, I miss the spy stuff in general. Hopefully we get something related to it in the future


Perhaps Dick could hire the girls at Grayson Cross Training and they can instruct the clients in the intricacies of Jim and Juan.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think  they ought to put all four Skull Girls in Bludhaven as their own vigilante team that Dick is training.


what would be the point of cass and  steph

----------


## wvchemteach

> what would be the point of cass and  steph


They are in Gotham and part of the Detective's cast. For Nightwing to truly be regarded as the A-lister he should be he needs his own original supporting cast.

----------


## SpiderWing20

> They are in Gotham and part of the Detective's cast. For Nightwing to truly be regarded as the A-lister he should be he needs his own original supporting cast.


One thats not thrown away every time DC rebrands itself

----------


## Drako

Nightwing will show up in the next Justice League issue.

https://www.avclub.com/the-justice-l...s-e-1821633744

----------


## wvchemteach

> One that’s not thrown away every time DC rebrands itself


Yeah that is a strong annoyance as well. It tends to happen to a lot of characters as well. Other than Batman with Alfred and Lucius Fox and Superman with Lois Lane it seems no supporting characters are truly mainstays.

----------


## jbmasta

> Yeah that is a strong annoyance as well. It tends to happen to a lot of characters as well. Other than Batman with Alfred and Lucius Fox and Superman with Lois Lane it seems no supporting characters are truly mainstays.


With Green Lantern the only Earth Lantern not on Earth (as in introduced pre-New 52) to have retained any Earth-based support cast is Hal, with his brother, sister in law, nephew and niece. Ferris Air hasn't been relevant for more than a few pages since before New 52, and Carol only around (when she is) in her capacity as a Star Sapphire.

----------


## jbmasta

> Nightwing will show up in the next Justice League issue.
> 
> https://www.avclub.com/the-justice-l...s-e-1821633744


That face looks too old.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They are in Gotham and part of the Detective's cast. For Nightwing to truly be regarded as the A-lister he should be he needs his own original supporting cast.


Gotham doesnt need and more kids running around

----------


## nightbird

I hope Priest will make Nightwing interact with whole League not only Batman.

----------


## Badou

I think Priest is a talented writer, but I don't think he wrote the character well in his Lazarus Contract story. I don't think he had a good voice or feel for the character, so my expectations are low. Dick doesn't seem to be the type of character he enjoys writing I think, but I guess we will see. I imagine he will just interact with Batman though.

----------


## adrikito

> That face looks too old.


This is the what Barbara Gordon needs now..

If you are new in DC, you can think that she is a character with similar age to Steph and Cass... Except in Injustice II, here she looks like one character between 20-25 years..

----------


## wvchemteach

> Gotham doesnt need and more kids running around


Exactly, but Dick is in his own city. He needs his own supporting cast. His own proteges. His own villains or have talented writer re-imagine seldom used C- and D- level villains. While not all attempts to create good villains for Dick have worked he has had some decent characters.

Lady Vic from Dixon was always interesting and Sylph, Double Dare, and Hella had potential and Shrike had the potential to be a recurring villain. Tarantula pre-rape was a good foil. The Circus of the Strange is a fitting villain for Dick. Higgins did a good job with Mali and the Prankster and Seiko and Feedback. King and Seeley made a good villain with Mr. Minos. Raptor ended up being a good villain as well.

----------


## nightbird

> I think Priest is a talented writer, but I don't think he wrote the character well in his Lazarus Contract story. I don't think he had a good voice or feel for the character, so my expectations are low. Dick doesn't seem to be the type of character he enjoys writing I think, but I guess we will see. I imagine he will just interact with Batman though.


Priest previously said that he is interested in writing Nightwing, but I don’t know how sincerely it was. On the other hand, I agree with you, Priest is bad/meh at understanding and writing characters like Dick.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Priest previously said that he is interested in writing Nightwing, but I don’t know how sincerely it was. On the other hand, I agree with you, Priest is bad/meh at understanding and writing characters like Dick.


Sometimes it also takes a writer time to get a feel for a character. I think Higgins got better with Nightwing as the run progressed and he seems to have him nailed in New World Order.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c35/1712/30/196a99b1e4ad.jpg[/IMG]
https://the-bird-watcher.tumblr.com/post/169033189913

----------


## nightbird

> Sometimes it also takes a writer time to get a feel for a character. I think Higgins got better with Nightwing as the run progressed and he seems to have him nailed in New World Order.


or sometimes they could have a totally wrong idea about characters. I personally would never give Priest to write Damian or Dick.
Also Higgins is writing an overall a good story with Order, but I don’t know if I can say he nailed Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

If they gave him free reign i think Priest could do great with Nightwing.

----------


## Rakiduam

> If they gave him free reign i think Priest could do great with Nightwing.


How? The man went into an hissy fit the last time he had to work with he character. He thinks is boring and there is nothing else to do with him.

----------


## nightbird

> Young Justice co-showrunner Greg Weisman has given fans a release window for the upcoming third season of the returning show, Young Justice: Outsiders. Asked on Twitter when the long-awaited return would happen, Weisman said, “All I know for sure is fourth quarter 2018.”


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...utsiders-2018/
I guess we should expect to see Titans around that time too.

----------


## Badou

I think with Priest's style he would ramp up what he views as Dick's insecurities and expand on them. Which I imagine will probably revolve around Batman and having Dick resent Bruce. That is the kind of writing I think Priest likes. He did call Dick "everything wrong with modern comics" and I think he would try and break the character down into something else.

----------


## Godlike13

> How? The man went into an hissy fit the last time he had to work with he character. He thinks is boring and there is nothing else to do with him.


Not quite. He went on to elaborate that he thinks he's boring when he shouldn't be, and that there's untapped potential in the character. He even said that he'd like to get his hands on him. Which makes sense give he keeps finding ways for him to make small appearances in his runs. I think someone who doesn't necessarily have a romanticized view on Nightwing could actually be good for the character.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Thats wrong. He said he thinks he's boring when he shouldn't be, and that there's a lot he could do with him.


 :Confused:  Maybe we read different hissy fits. But even ignoring his personal feelings, and only looking what he has done with the character, I don't think he should be working with him. At all, Ever again.

----------


## Pohzee

> Maybe we read different hissy fits. But even ignoring his personal feelings, and only looking what he has done with the character, I don't think he should be working with him. At all, Ever again.


In his initial rant he called Dick Wonderbread, but he expanded upon his comments like Godlike said. I believe a comarison he used was that "Dick had more untapped potential than oil in Russia." He said that he'd be interested on a take on the character along with a couple of ideas, including a costume redesign. I'd sell my soul for Priest to write more with Nightwing, but I'm sure he'll have two lines in this issue. Trying to give focus on every core Leaguer is a big enough challenge.

----------


## Rakiduam

> In his initial rant he called Dick Wonderbread, but he expanded upon his comments like Godlike said. I believe a comarison he used was that "Dick had more untapped potential than oil in Russia." He said that he'd be interested on a take on the character along with a couple of ideas, including a costume redesign. I'd sell my soul for Priest to write more with Nightwing, but I'm sure he'll have two lines in this issue. Trying to give focus on every core Leaguer is a big enough challenge.


Wonderbread! That was it, I couldn't remember it, it was driving me crazy. I didn't pass the initial rant, it was very long and  I thought he made himself very clear. Regadless how much he edited latter it doesn't change the fact his story and characterization was terrible. Why would anyone want more of that?

I feel it's like a Abnett situation where everyone keeps going how fantastic he is in other things, but it doesn't make his Titans any better.

----------


## Badou

I would have no problem with Priest writing him or or even taking over his solo book one day, but I would just temper my expectations is all. I'd just like to see him do something good with the character first before I would get too excited about it. So far Dick's history with Rose in the Deathstroke book has been worthless and he wrote the character poorly in LC. So I'd just need to be convinced first before I buy in.

----------


## Rac7d*

I want Dick to be In a third Book
Nightwing and Robin Book

----------


## scary harpy

> I want Dick to be In a third Book
> Nightwing and Robin Book


Shouldn't be Nightwing and Flamebird?

----------


## oasis1313

I'd just like to see a writer who has some interest in making Dick Grayson look GOOD.  To have as his goal to make the character more popular than he's ever been.  And I think Dick should be a member of the Justice League in order to be an A-lister--or leading a super-team that's a HELL Of a lot more interesting than the worthless current Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Shouldn't be Nightwing and Flamebird?


who a girl no thanks




> I'd just like to see a writer who has some interest in making Dick Grayson look GOOD.  To have as his goal to make the character more popular than he's ever been.  And I think Dick should be a member of the Justice League in order to be an A-lister--or leading a super-team that's a HELL Of a lot more interesting than the worthless current Titans.


Im not sure what you want dude. Most writers are estatic to work on Dick grayson, but they are limited in how much they can effect the world with him. So I think what you really want, is for Big titled Books that can freely shape the DC world Like Justice League to use Nightwing, a way where he is both vital and competent.

----------


## Ascended

> who a girl no thanks


Whats wrong with Nightwing doing a team-up book with a female?

If you mean Bette in particular, I can see that. Never really cared for her much myself. If you mean any girl at all.....I dunno, that seems awfully limiting. Especially for Nightwing, the DCU's official male eye candy.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Shouldn't be Nightwing and Flamebird?


This is Dick... why limit him to one sidekick... make it Nightwing and the Skullgirls

----------


## oasis1313

> who a girl no thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure what you want dude. Most writers are estatic to work on Dick grayson, but they are limited in how much they can effect the world with him. So I think what you really want, is for Big titled Books that can freely shape the DC world Like Justice League to use Nightwing, a way where he is both vital and competent.


Something like the Tynion attitude of "This is a love letter for XYZ character."  One of the things I loved most about the Grayson book was not using the first-person POV so it felt less like "The Superhero Twelve Step Program".  There's too much introspection--need more action and less self-doubt, as Bruce put it "a one-man strike force."  I want to see Dick's strengths being played up and less ruminating over his insecurities--let's see him making the bad guys feel insecure.  He needs a better, more quirky team of heroes to lead than the super-stale Titans, a team that the Justice League would call on for help.  I don't mind appearances in the Bat-books, as long as he's not being made to look like a moron so Tim/Duke/Bat-Cow/Whatever will look smarter than he is.  I would suggest a writer tackling the project ask himself/herself:  "What is a Wingnut and how can I make more of them to buy this book and love this character?"

----------


## Rac7d*

> Whats wrong with Nightwing doing a team-up book with a female?
> 
> If you mean Bette in particular, I can see that. Never really cared for her much myself. If you mean any girl at all.....I dunno, that seems awfully limiting. Especially for Nightwing, the DCU's official male eye candy.


Becasue of inevitable sexual tension, unless she is gay

----------


## SpiderWing20

> Something like the Tynion attitude of "This is a love letter for XYZ character."  One of the things I loved most about the Grayson book was not using the first-person POV so it felt less like "The Superhero Twelve Step Program".  There's too much introspection--need more action and less self-doubt, as Bruce put it "a one-man strike force."  I want to see Dick's strengths being played up and less ruminating over his insecurities--let's see him making the bad guys feel insecure.  He needs a better, more quirky team of heroes to lead than the super-stale Titans, a team that the Justice League would call on for help.  I don't mind appearances in the Bat-books, as long as he's not being made to look like a moron so Tim/Duke/Bat-Cow/Whatever will look smarter than he is.  I would suggest a writer tackling the project ask himself/herself:  "What is a Wingnut and how can I make more of them to buy this book and love this character?"


While I agree, listening to most wingnuts got us stuck where we are, him back in a place where hes been before. The loud out cry for more classic Nightwing got us stuck back in bludhaven with him struggling to establish a normal life while also hanging around his super friends. At this point I kinda accept that thats how they see the character.

----------


## yohyoi

Oh no... Christopher Priest writing Nightwing again in Justice League. My anti-DiDio sense is tingling.

Whoever wished for Dick in the League this Christmas, you are getting what you wished for and more.

----------


## Barbatos666

Priest says a lot of things but his actual books are nowhere near as controversial as his words.

----------


## adrikito

Sorry if the preview is here:

http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-...-nightwing-36/

----------


## Tony Stark

> Sorry if the preview is here:
> 
> http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-...-nightwing-36/


I'm really digging that art.

----------


## yohyoi

> Sorry if the preview is here:
> 
> http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-...-nightwing-36/


If Seeley's Nightwing is Spider-Man, then Humphries' Nightwing is Daredevil. Also, poor poor Guppy... Shark men are people too  :Frown:

----------


## wvchemteach

> If Seeley's Nightwing is Spider-Man, then Humphries' Nightwing is Daredevil. Also, poor poor Guppy... Shark men are people too


Well at least now we know why he was a fish-guy.

----------


## Ascended

> Becasue of inevitable sexual tension, unless she is gay


Okay.....and that is a bad thing because.....?

Is this a Kori/Babs thing, a "love interests are overplayed in Nightwing" thing, or a "it has no place in comics" thing?

If you explained this already, I missed it, and my apologies for asking you to do so again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Okay.....and that is a bad thing because.....?
> 
> Is this a Kori/Babs thing, a "love interests are overplayed in Nightwing" thing, or a "it has no place in comics" thing?
> 
> If you explained this already, I missed it, and my apologies for asking you to do so again.


Im jsut a bit tired of it, since Dick is not allowed to be platonic unless she is younger then him
Id rather a Nightwing and Robin team up book

----------


## jbmasta

> Im jsut a bit tired of it, since Dick is not allowed to be platonic unless she is younger then him
> Id rather a Nightwing and Robin team up book


I love the dynamic between Dick and Damien.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a09/1712/d1/83d0e0baa8af.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://b.***********/b23/1712/b9/7e29a235ad23.jpg[/IMG]
credit:logo

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a13/1712/70/74477e8b950c.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing as Korean warrior
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...an-art-style-2

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d23/1712/50/4566731f5e63.png[/IMG]
https://pentapoda.tumblr.com/post/16...-for-damian-or

[IMG]https://b.***********/b03/1712/4f/7ff109f906e1.jpg[/IMG]
http://laquilasse.tumblr.com/post/16...scene-from-her

----------


## adrikito

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a13/1712/70/74477e8b950c.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing as Korean warrior
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...an-art-style-2


WOW.. I like this image..

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b32/1712/ff/5d36d577c8a2.jpg[/IMG]
Happy new year.
credit:logo

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d25/1712/7b/0c50a25fe597.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a34/1712/9d/553b6a0671fc.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Damian 

credit:logo

----------


## oasis1313

Awwww, these are so sweet.  I think a Nightwing/Robin book would sell like hotcakes.

----------


## wvchemteach

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d25/1712/7b/0c50a25fe597.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://a.***********/a34/1712/9d/553b6a0671fc.jpg[/IMG]
> Dick and Damian 
> 
> credit:logo


This is all absolutely gorgeous.

----------


## jbmasta

> Awwww, these are so sweet.  I think a Nightwing/Robin book would sell like hotcakes.


And just wait until Damien falls for a girl. He'll insist on getting no advice from Dick due to his relationship history. Guest starring Jon as his wingman. I reckon Dick and Jon would get on pretty well.

----------


## berserkerclaw

Happy New Year Nightwing fans.  We made it to another year
fd6fb1e654eab6a38734c0a24b991177.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

Barbara was nicer back then.

----------


## dietrich

Happy New year Nightwing Fans

----------


## The Whovian

Happy New Year everyone!

----------


## oasis1313

> Happy New year Nightwing Fans


THIS makes my New Years happier.  Thanks!  Who drew it?

----------


## dietrich

> THIS makes my New Years happier.  Thanks!  Who drew it?


NIGHTWING by 穀雨

I'm afraid I don't have the English translate.

----------


## Hizashi

Happy New Year, I really enjoyed Bernard Chang's art for Nightwing and I'm looking forward to the conclusion of The New Order.

----------


## RL_Penguin

happy new year everyone

----------


## Rac7d*

> And just wait until Damien falls for a girl. He'll insist on getting no advice from Dick due to his relationship history. Guest starring Jon as his wingman. I reckon Dick and Jon would get on pretty well.

----------


## Elmo

Happy New Year guys! And happy new year to the one true Batman!

----------


## oasis1313

> NIGHTWING by 穀雨
> 
> I'm afraid I don't have the English translate.


Somebody like this would be a really good artist for Dick.  Sometimes he's drawn to look much older than he actually is.

----------


## Rac7d*

I want elseworld of this

----------


## wvchemteach

> I want elseworld of this


Maybe a wish list for 2018 after we finish New World Order?

----------


## Hizashi

Anyone else feel that seeds were planted for Dick to have a larger role in Metal that have yet to pay off? I was pretty excited when he was cut by that dagger that showed him Elseworld's versions of himself, I was kinda hoping that it would be more than just a tease.

----------


## dietrich



----------


## dietrich

> Anyone else feel that seeds were planted for Dick to have a larger role in Metal that have yet to pay off? I was pretty excited when he was cut by that dagger that showed him Elseworld's versions of himself, I was kinda hoping that it would be more than just a tease.


Yep I thought Gotham Resistant was going to turn out differently.

----------


## Badou

> Anyone else feel that seeds were planted for Dick to have a larger role in Metal that have yet to pay off? I was pretty excited when he was cut by that dagger that showed him Elseworld's versions of himself, I was kinda hoping that it would be more than just a tease.


Not really. Metal is Snyder's event. Unless Snyder was the one setting up the stories and planting the seeds then it wasn't likely that they were going to play a big part in the Metal story. It is why Metal is mainly focusing on Batman, Superman, Justice League and all the other various characters from the Hawkman ones to the Sandman ones because those are who Snyder wants to write about. Dick was never really a factor or involved with all that so I never thought he would play a larger role other than a cameo here or there. 

Dick rarely has more than a small role or a cameo in these big DC events. That has been the case for years and I thought this would be the same.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Anyone else feel that seeds were planted for Dick to have a larger role in Metal that have yet to pay off? I was pretty excited when he was cut by that dagger that showed him Elseworld's versions of himself, I was kinda hoping that it would be more than just a tease.


It definitely felt like it and was played up in the tie-ins, but then he completely vanished from the main storyline.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d05/1801/8c/c4bfdc4a80b2.jpg[/IMG]
by Javier Fernandez 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BddEvWVARS_/

----------


## Hizashi

> Not really. Metal is Snyder's event. Unless Snyder was the one setting up the stories and planting the seeds then it wasn't likely that they were going to play a big part in the Metal story. It is why Metal is mainly focusing on Batman, Superman, Justice League and all the other various characters from the Hawkman ones to the Sandman ones because those are who Snyder wants to write about. Dick was never really a factor or involved with all that so I never thought he would play a larger role other than a cameo here or there. 
> 
> Dick rarely has more than a small role or a cameo in these big DC events. That has been the case for years and I thought this would be the same.


Don't get me wrong, I wasn't asking for him to save the day, but I thought he would play a larger role than he has so far. I'm not sure what I was expecting honestly, maybe he would be a key in some way?

----------


## Godlike13

Well i think he still has to explain why a bird is Batman's partner if Bats and Hawks are suppose to be these mortal enemies.

----------


## oasis1313

> Don't get me wrong, I wasn't asking for him to save the day, but I thought he would play a larger role than he has so far. I'm not sure what I was expecting honestly, maybe he would be a key in some way?


I've been waiting for something like this for almost sixty years, been a Grayson fan since 1957.  I'm glad I've not been holding my breath.

----------


## Pohzee

This is why it bugged the hell out of me that it cut the balls off of Nightwing Must Die(!). It ruined the arc for me knowing that a story with such potential went without proper resolution to hype up Snyder's awful event.

----------


## Hizashi

> I've been waiting for something like this for almost sixty years, been a Grayson fan since 1957.  I'm glad I've not been holding my breath.


I'm hoping for 2018 to deliver some good Nightwing stories. I've enjoyed The New Order overall, and I liked the new creative team's first issue on Nightwing.




> This is why it bugged the hell out of me that it cut the balls off of Nightwing Must Die(!). It ruined the arc for me knowing that a story with such potential went without proper resolution to hype up Snyder's awful event.


Yeah, and again, I'm not asking for Nightwing to save the universe, but it would've been nice if he had a bigger role to play than simply "had some of the metals in his body". Gotham Resistance didn't amount to much did it? It didn't really have anything interesting to add to the narrative. Unless I missed it?

----------


## wvchemteach

> I'm hoping for 2018 to deliver some good Nightwing stories. I've enjoyed The New Order overall, and I liked the new creative team's first issue on Nightwing.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and again, I'm not asking for Nightwing to save the universe, but it would've been nice if he had a bigger role to play than simply "had some of the metals in his body". Gotham Resistance didn't amount to much did it? It didn't really have anything interesting to add to the narrative. Unless I missed it?


You didn't. The story seemed to actually be more focused on building up Damian and Green Arrow before completely just petering out into uselessness.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a12/1801/98/c96a32f432de.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing by Adnan Ali
http://league-of-extraordinarycomics...g-by-adnan-ali

----------


## Tony Stark

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a12/1801/98/c96a32f432de.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing by Adnan Ali
> http://league-of-extraordinarycomics...g-by-adnan-ali


That's awesome. Looks like Dick had a tough night.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a12/1801/98/c96a32f432de.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing by Adnan Ali
> http://league-of-extraordinarycomics...g-by-adnan-ali


This person should be drawing the Nightwing book.

----------


## nightbird

> This person should be drawing the Nightwing book.


He is mostly a concept artist, I’m not sure he can draw comics.

----------


## yohyoi

Big events are more focused on the Justice League. The only time younger or less popular characters gets focused on are when they die on the event. (Infinite Crisis, Forever Evil, etc.)

It's how DC works. Atleast Dick has some cool moments in Metal like being right about the warning.

----------


## Digifiend

Dick is in Justice League #36.

----------


## Godlike13

That was cool, good use of Dick. Not angsty just genuinely concerned.

----------


## oasis1313

> That was cool, good use of Dick. Not angsty just genuinely concerned.


Agreed good use of Dick, but the art sucks.  Why not meta up the whole Bat-Family?  Duke's already got superpowers and he doesn't deserve them.  I'd rather give them to a tenured legacy character.

----------


## Ascended

> Agreed good use of Dick, but the art sucks.  Why not meta up the whole Bat-Family?  Duke's already got superpowers and he doesn't deserve them.  I'd rather give them to a tenured legacy character.


Well, I'm all for Nightwing being the member of the Bat-clan who hangs out in the "superhuman" sphere of events well beyond Gotham's borders, but I dunno about this whole "give powers to the people who deserve them" thing. That's.....an odd mindset. 

These guys (along with Arrow and the other powerless vigilantes) never needed powers before, they dont need them now, and "powers" is a subjective concept here anyway. Bruce doesnt have any powers, but he's the most powerful person in DC because of his extensive plot armor and popularity. He's beaten superhuman foes, including the entire League (groan) so what does he or the other Gotham heroes gain by suddenly getting powers? 

Duke? He's a blank slate. He's been around for what, a couple years? He needed something to stand out and set him apart (just like all the rest have something that sets them apart) and whoever makes these calls decided that making Duke the resident metahuman and daytime operator worked. I dont see this as snubbing the other guys at all. 

Now, Snyder does tend to write Duke with a disgusting amount of bias (Metal #1, with Hal and Duke, is terrible), but that's a separate issue from him having powers. 

Should we also be upset about Batwing using Iron Man type armor while everyone else uses kevlar?

----------


## Godlike13

Being non-meta is one of the key features of Batman and Bat characters. And quite frankly Duke is not a character they should try and emulate with the other characters, lol.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Agreed good use of Dick, but the art sucks.  Why not meta up the whole Bat-Family?  Duke's already got superpowers and he doesn't deserve them.  I'd rather give them to a tenured legacy character.


Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Robin, Spoiler, Orphan, Batgirl, and Huntress do not need powers. Duke being a late arrival needs something to stand out. Making him meta stands him out, just like Luke Fox's Iron Bat suit makes him stand out.

----------


## oasis1313

> Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Robin, Spoiler, Orphan, Batgirl, and Huntress do not need powers.


Then they should be written that way.

----------


## Hizashi

> You didn't. The story seemed to actually be more focused on building up Damian and Green Arrow before completely just petering out into uselessness.


That sounds about right.




> Agreed good use of Dick, but the art sucks.  Why not meta up the whole Bat-Family?  Duke's already got superpowers and he doesn't deserve them.  I'd rather give them to a tenured legacy character.


I also don't think that Nightwing needs powers. Now, would it be neat if he had them, if only for a while? Yeah, but I don't think it should be a permanent thing.

----------


## bearman

Dick needs to BE in the League, not guest star in the book.
I would like to see him move to Metropolis, and deal with the Grayson-esque  shannanigans there (aliens, super science), and hang on occasion with Superman, and Clark and Lois.

----------


## Hizashi

> Dick needs to BE in the League, not guest star in the book.
> I would like to see him move to Metropolis, and deal with the Grayson-esque  shannanigans there (aliens, super science), and hang on occasion with Superman, and Clark and Lois.


Big brother to Jon?

----------


## Ascended

You know, back when Loeb brought Kara Zor-El into post-Crisis continuity, Kara spent a chunk of time on Themyscria and had a very close friendship with Wonder Girl. I got to thinking that Kara would be a great "in-between" character, bridging the gap between the Super and Wonder franchises. Not just Superman in a skirt, not just another Wonder girl, but a bit of both and in that way, unique. I had ideas in my head of Kara wearing Amazon forged armor with the "S" shield and red cape.......

And I started wondering who else could tie the Trinity members together, who could be a legacy of two families so to speak.

Obviously Nightwing fits perfectly as the "Super-Bat" combo. He and Clark had a great relationship back in the day, Dick's name is taken from Clark's mythology, and Dick's time with the Titans makes him well suited for tangling with superhuman threats.

The "Wonder-Bat" connection.....no one ever really fit. Grace Choi, Cass Cain, a re-imagined Nubia......no one ever made sense as a character with one foot in Gotham and the other in Paradise Island. 

But Ive wanted to see Dick spend more time with his "favorite uncle" in Metropolis ever since.  :Smile:  That Jon has been around for two years and hasn't had the chance to hang with Nightwing is a crime against comicdom.

----------


## jbmasta

> But Ive wanted to see Dick spend more time with his "favorite uncle" in Metropolis ever since.  That Jon has been around for two years and hasn't had the chance to hang with Nightwing is a crime against comicdom.


Damian trying not to look bothered that Jon gets to hang out with Dick would be brilliant. Jon might get the idea to incorporate some parkour into his movements, to contrast the physicality of his father.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick needs to BE in the League, not guest star in the book.
> I would like to see him move to Metropolis, and deal with the Grayson-esque  shannanigans there (aliens, super science), and hang on occasion with Superman, and Clark and Lois.


Yeah, just something cool and DIFFERENT.

----------


## nightbird

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/01/04/e...iew-titans-19/

Titans #19 preview

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d01/1801/5a/17b99ee5b430.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdhWd0DgNap/

----------


## Godlike13

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/01/04/e...iew-titans-19/
> 
> Titans #19 preview


Oh my, the arc is actually titled Grounded lol. DC needs to get Abnett off this team. He doesn’t get it, he just doesn’t get it.

----------


## WonderNight

> Oh my, the arc is actually titled Grounded lol. DC needs to get Abnett off this team. He doesnt get it, he just doesnt get it.


What nightwing needs is a new team with a new concept. The titans can't go up because up is the JL so there stuck as the jv team.  Maybe nightwing needs the outsiders or something but the titans are a joke. I can't believe after grayson that dick would be treated like a child like this.    P.s at least I get to see dick and Diana interact I hope.

----------


## Aioros22

> Then they should be written that way.


In contrast to what, needing powers? Did you see how effective Duke was in Training Day with Jason?

Me neither.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans are stuck as a JV team because its creative team portrays them as a JV team. With the TV show on the horizon the opportunity is there, but they are under the control of someone who clearly just doesn’t get it, and seemingly wants to reinforce them as children or a Jr. JL.

----------


## WonderNight

The tv show has a very different roster to this one. In what way would this roster not be a JV justice league.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a32/1801/0e/5939263663ae.jpg[/IMG]
http://darkphoenyx.tumblr.com/post/1...when-she-joins


[IMG]https://c.***********/c28/1801/83/9fea1d07b0b5.jpg[/IMG]
https://cytosinesketch.tumblr.com/po...ething-ancient

Dick and Babs

----------


## yohyoi

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/01/04/e...iew-titans-19/
> 
> Titans #19 preview


Remember the days when the Titans didn't take any of the Justice League's sh*t. One of the main reasons NTT was successful because they were independent of the JL or any adults. I won't read the Justice League grounding the Titans. Sheesh... The Titans are now grown adults.

----------


## Korath

> What nightwing needs is a new team with a new concept. The titans can't go up because up is the JL so there stuck as the jv team.  Maybe nightwing needs the outsiders or something but the titans are a joke. I can't believe after grayson that dick would be treated like a child like this.    P.s at least I get to see dick and Diana interact I hope.


Yes! Quoted for truth.

----------


## Ascended

> The Titans are stuck as a JV team because its creative team portrays them as a JV team.


Which is odd. Back in the day they were dealing with alien invasions, monsters from strange dimensions, and friggin Trigon. 

These were League worthy threats. 

How did the Titans go from that, to what they are now?

----------


## Godlike13

> The tv show has a very different roster to this one. In what way would this roster not be a JV justice league.


They can change the roster. The Titans don’t have to be these guys, as the TV show will show. But the current people in control of the comic doesn’t seem to get that, and instead want to tell stories with an out of date, unoriginal, roster and have the JL come in and ground these Titans. Clearly exemplifying that the people running the comic Titans just don’t fringing get it.

Another team isn’t gonna help Dick, not with the Tv show on the horizon. Even if they were to put him on the JL what exactly would that do for him or his brand. It’s not like that would translate to more media appearances or he’d ever truly be solidified as a JL member. Same goes with the Outsiders. Right now the opportunity is with the Titans, or at least it should be if the people running the Titans comic had a damn clue.

----------


## Hizashi

How important do y'all feel Nightwing's leadership is to the Titans? I was actually kinda looking forward to what I assumed would be a book led by Wally and what his return to the known universe would mean, maybe even having him lead the team. I don't think Nightwing _has_ to be the leader, but now that we've had such a mediocre run, I want him to have a proper shot at it.

----------


## Godlike13

The leader position has been meaningless with current Titans.

----------


## Hizashi

> The leader position has been meaningless with current Titans.


Definitely, but I'd still like Dick (or Wally) to lead a team in a good book.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I've pretty much given up on a good _Titans_ book or even an interesting _Nightwing_ book at this point. I think they made a huge mistake in not spinning a completely new direction and/or team for Dick out of _Grayson_ once it ended. Instead what we've got is the same boring thing Dick seems to always end up being saddled with after they do something interesting with him that pushes the character. It's pretty sad when the best Dick Grayson showings lately have been in out of continuity books.

----------


## oasis1313

> How important do y'all feel Nightwing's leadership is to the Titans? I was actually kinda looking forward to what I assumed would be a book led by Wally and what his return to the known universe would mean, maybe even having him lead the team. I don't think Nightwing _has_ to be the leader, but now that we've had such a mediocre run, I want him to have a proper shot at it.


I don't see much evidence that Dick even leads the abysmal current bunch of Titans--or that he's even much of a member of it at all.   He looks strictly there to sell books and hold up the scenery.  This roster sucked in the 60's and it's sucking even worse now.  I think Dick should leave that title and get a new group of Outsiders.  The problem with the last attempt at a Nightwing+ Outsiders book was that the writer was allowed to put the entire focus everywhere EXCEPT on Nightwing--the star, the reason anybody buys the rag.  I feel that Dick's current treatment is shameful.

----------


## Hizashi

> I don't see much evidence that Dick even leads the abysmal current bunch of Titans--or that he's even much of a member of it at all.   He looks strictly there to sell books and hold up the scenery.  This roster sucked in the 60's and it's sucking even worse now.  I think Dick should leave that title and get a new group of Outsiders.  The problem with the last attempt at a Nightwing+ Outsiders book was that the writer was allowed to put the entire focus everywhere EXCEPT on Nightwing--the star, the reason anybody buys the rag.  I feel that Dick's current treatment is shameful.


No argument here, I do recall Nightwing being called the leader, but it is meaningless in the current Titans book. First big disappointment from Rebirth, which I've enjoyed overall. If my profile pic didn't give it away, Cyclops is among my favorite characters, but I find myself more of a DC guy lately, I'm hoping 2018 treats Nightwing and the Titans better.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't see much evidence that Dick even leads the abysmal current bunch of Titans--or that he's even much of a member of it at all.   He looks strictly there to sell books and hold up the scenery.  This roster sucked in the 60's and it's sucking even worse now.  I think Dick should leave that title and get a new group of Outsiders.  The problem with the last attempt at a Nightwing+ Outsiders book was that the writer was allowed to put the entire focus everywhere EXCEPT on Nightwing--the star, the reason anybody buys the rag.  I feel that Dick's current treatment is shameful.


I still think that something like Outsiders doesn't really suit Dick, he fits better in classical superhero teams, and there are Batfamily members that fit better in more anti heroic book.

I think the big problems with Titans is really that nothing really big has happened in their book in a long time, at best they fight one of their biggest villains from their old stories. I mean when was even the last time they went to space or something like that ?

And I don't think that the Titans need to become something like the Outsiders, they need bigger stories and better writing and to be treated like an adult team.

----------


## Ascended

> How important do y'all feel Nightwing's leadership is to the Titans?


I think Dick leading the Titans through his history is important to his character, as it defines some of his best qualities. 

I think the Titans themselves don't matter and haven't mattered in twenty years. 

I think Dick leading the Titans now is holding his character back and preventing him from growing.

----------


## wvchemteach

> I still think that something like Outsiders doesn't really suit Dick, he fits better in classical superhero teams, and there are Batfamily members that fit better in more anti heroic book.
> 
> I think the big problems with Titans is really that nothing really big has happened in their book in a long time, at best they fight one of their biggest villains from their old stories. I mean when was even the last time they went to space or something like that ?
> 
> And I don't think that the Titans need to become something like the Outsiders, they need bigger stories and better writing and to be treated like an adult team.


I think you are onto something here. So far every attempt to bring the original Titans back together seems to be some attempt to 1) bring back a time of gentler times of a family style comic from the 60s or 2) recapture the lightning that was the New Teen Titans of the 80s.

I think for a Titans book to be successful they need to go a direction they've never gone before. I think the key is more of a covert op style team. Perhaps ultimately under the direction of Batman, but with Nightwing as the field leader.

Then you need to find a reason to justify each and every member in the idea that they are a behind the scenes type team.

Nightwing brings stealth, leadership, and problem solving. Arsenal brings stealth, improvisation of weaponry and problem solving to the team. Tempest brings both raw strength and mystical powers to the team. Donna bring raw power. Wally brings speed, which in a way can be stealthy. Omen brings mental abilities as well as teleportation. 

The next question is: are there any other characters that aren't being utilized or not being utilized correctly? As it stands Raven and Starfire don't really fit with the Teen Titans and truthfully Cyborg doesn't fit with the Justice League.

Not sure any of the 3 would fit with a covert op team, but there are others. Rose Wilson could be a possibility... other unpowered heroes such as Orphan, Huntress, the new Red Arrow, and Katana are also possibilities.

The person I'd love writing this sort of book would be someone like Tom King.

----------


## Aahz

> I think for a Titans book to be successful they need to go a direction they've never gone before. I think the key is more of a covert op style team. Perhaps ultimately under the direction of Batman, but with Nightwing as the field leader.
> 
> Then you need to find a reason to justify each and every member in the idea that they are a behind the scenes type team.
> 
> Nightwing brings stealth, leadership, and problem solving. Arsenal brings stealth, improvisation of weaponry and problem solving to the team. Tempest brings both raw strength and mystical powers to the team. Donna bring raw power. Wally brings speed, which in a way can be stealthy. Omen brings mental abilities as well as teleportation.


The problem with titans as special ops are not their powers but the personalities, Dick, Wally and the other have never really been characters that like to work from the shadows, then going black ops might interesting for some imo but it is imo not a fitting direction for the Titans on the long run imo.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #36 was quite dark. The Judge is appearing to be a great villain.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c25/1801/f7/859259ba0984.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/e_noeno/status/9...6%7Ctwterm%5E0

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b05/1801/ae/3a1abb873317.jpg[/IMG]
https://sbfbobb.tumblr.com/post/169266691254

[IMG]https://b.***********/b41/1801/9c/26a551e8f143.jpg[/IMG]
http://andreayewon.tumblr.com/post/1...veryone-in-the

----------


## JudasFanny616

Just started reading Batman: Murderer?. Nightwing is pretty awesome in it. Great fight scenes as well.

----------


## oasis1313

The spec-ops idea by Joe Casey ruined WildCATS forever.  Dick and Roy could go there, but the others aren't really suited for cloak and dagger.  That's why I'd like an Outsiders--or maybe a differently-titled group--of existing characters so that the writer isn't so enamored of his new babies that he neglects Nightwing--the STAR.  I would bring in characters like Frankenstein, Element Woman, Caitlyn Fairchild, Klarion, Elasti-Girl (yeah, I'd resurrect Rita Farr), a Gorilla, maybe Orca--the most off-beat, and for the MOST part butt-ugly characters I could find.  I'd love to have Grifter, but one male good-looking character would probably be enough; besides, Dick would have issues with him shooting everyone in sight.  You could put someone like Tao on the team, and let Dick try to figure out how to stay ahead of him--show how smart Dick is by letting him constantly outwit Tao and actually use that character for good.  Even the PRESENT Titans team could work--if DC tried taking them in different directions instead of regurgitating old stuff like Hatton Corners, Honey Bun, etc etc etc with so-called "new twists".  Nobody here but me remembers that lousy 60's stuff and it has NOT aged well.

----------


## wvchemteach

> The spec-ops idea by Joe Casey ruined WildCATS forever.  Dick and Roy could go there, but the others aren't really suited for cloak and dagger.  That's why I'd like an Outsiders--or maybe a differently-titled group--of existing characters so that the writer isn't so enamored of his new babies that he neglects Nightwing--the STAR.  I would bring in characters like Frankenstein, Element Woman, Caitlyn Fairchild, Klarion, Elasti-Girl (yeah, I'd resurrect Rita Farr), a Gorilla, maybe Orca--the most off-beat, and for the MOST part butt-ugly characters I could find.  I'd love to have Grifter, but one male good-looking character would probably be enough; besides, Dick would have issues with him shooting everyone in sight.  You could put someone like Tao on the team, and let Dick try to figure out how to stay ahead of him--show how smart Dick is by letting him constantly outwit Tao and actually use that character for good.  Even the PRESENT Titans team could work--if DC tried taking them in different directions instead of regurgitating old stuff like Hatton Corners, Honey Bun, etc etc etc with so-called "new twists".  Nobody here but me remembers that lousy 60's stuff and it has NOT aged well.


I think you've hit the nail on the head. They keep trying to recreate the 60s stuff which was never that great to begin with or recreate New Teen Titans and the Judas Contract instead of going a new direction. I think what they need to do is keep the current line-up, age up Rachel a few years and move her and Starfire to the Titans and go an entirely new direction. No Titan's tower, no T-jet. If you reintroduce old villains like H.I.V.E., Brother Blood, or Trigon amp up the threat to the 13th degree and quit trying to recreate pizza parties and pillow fights.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a08/1801/bc/bb72227a696d.jpg[/IMG]
by Nikola Čižmešija

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a08/1801/bc/bb72227a696d.jpg[/IMG]
> by Nikola Čižmešija


He looks like Jason with the jacket  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I think you've hit the nail on the head. They keep trying to recreate the 60s stuff which was never that great to begin with or recreate New Teen Titans and the Judas Contract instead of going a new direction. I think what they need to do is keep the current line-up, age up Rachel a few years and move her and Starfire to the Titans and go an entirely new direction. No Titan's tower, no T-jet. If you reintroduce old villains like H.I.V.E., Brother Blood, or Trigon amp up the threat to the 13th degree and quit trying to recreate pizza parties and pillow fights.


Exactly! I just want to see Dick take on huge threats again. That's all the Titans book needs.

----------


## Hizashi

Anyone read the Captain America Dimension Z storyline? Would a story like that work for Nightwing, where he's trapped for some time in another reality/dimension?

----------


## Ascended

> Anyone read the Captain America Dimension Z storyline? Would a story like that work for Nightwing, where he's trapped for some time in another reality/dimension?


I haven't read that Cap story, but I know the basics of it. 

And yeah, Id be down for a story like that. But Ive been saying for a while that I want to see Nightwing as the member of the Gotham clan that gets out of the city and into the crazy, high-concept superhuman stuff. A Bat fighting Super threats, as it were. 

So Dick lost on another world of some kind is right up my alley. But it really does go against the way DC has used him since the 90's.

----------


## Ascended

So, random question. The Roxy Rocket thread got me thinking, and she's a villain I want to see as part of Dick's rogues gallery. I think Roxy would be perfect as Nightwing's "Catwoman" villain; the one with all the sexual tension and the hope that she might turn her life around one day. The more I think about this, the more I want to see it. What do you guys think?

Also, I think Nightwing's rogues gallery should be heavily women, lots of femme fatales and such. Very James Bond-ish....except Dick doesn't have to sleep with all of them.

Who does he have for rogues who are solidly, well entrenched in his mythos? Rogues you *cant* just ignore for too long. He's got Blockbuster.....Raptor perhaps.....maybe the Court of Owls if you dont consider that just borrowing from Bruce.......is there anyone else?

Who needs more attention? Who should jump ship from another franchise? I'd love to see Deathwing used more (as the classic dark mirror foe), Spyral (as the global organization threat, akin to Intergang or the League of Assassins), Lady Vic (as the cold blooded hired hand), Roxy Rocket (as the thrill seeking troublemaker and "lust interest" foe), and Volcana (a pyrokinetic villain from the Superman cartoon). And you know, crazy as it sounds, if the Super-books aren't doing anything with her....Maxima, who maybe thinks that, even though humans are weak and pathetic, Nightwing's butt makes up for it and he'd make a worthy consort for Almerac. It's funny and scary at the same time.

I dunno how often the rogues have been discussed, so if Im beating a dead horse we can limit it to "Should Roxy Rocket be a Nightwing villain?"

----------


## Hizashi

> I haven't read that Cap story, but I know the basics of it. 
> 
> And yeah, Id be down for a story like that. But Ive been saying for a while that I want to see Nightwing as the member of the Gotham clan that gets out of the city and into the crazy, high-concept superhuman stuff. A Bat fighting Super threats, as it were. 
> 
> So Dick lost on another world of some kind is right up my alley. But it really does go against the way DC has used him since the 90's.


Yeah, he could face nightmare versions of certain characters, or threats that he wouldn't normally face in the main universe. And you could have a B-story or backup where the Batfamily or the Titans struggle to bring him back.




> So, random question. The Roxy Rocket thread got me thinking, and she's a villain I want to see as part of Dick's rogues gallery. I think Roxy would be perfect as Nightwing's "Catwoman" villain; the one with all the sexual tension and the hope that she might turn her life around one day. The more I think about this, the more I want to see it. What do you guys think?
> 
> Also, I think Nightwing's rogues gallery should be heavily women, lots of femme fatales and such. Very James Bond-ish....except Dick doesn't have to sleep with all of them.
> 
> Who does he have for rogues who are solidly, well entrenched in his mythos? Rogues you *cant* just ignore for too long. He's got Blockbuster.....Raptor perhaps.....maybe the Court of Owls if you dont consider that just borrowing from Bruce.......is there anyone else?
> 
> Who needs more attention? Who should jump ship from another franchise? I'd love to see Deathwing used more (as the classic dark mirror foe), Spyral (as the global organization threat, akin to Intergang or the League of Assassins), Lady Vic (as the cold blooded hired hand), Roxy Rocket (as the thrill seeking troublemaker and "lust interest" foe), and Volcana (a pyrokinetic villain from the Superman cartoon). And you know, crazy as it sounds, if the Super-books aren't doing anything with her....Maxima, who maybe thinks that, even though humans are weak and pathetic, Nightwing's butt makes up for it and he'd make a worthy consort for Almerac. It's funny and scary at the same time.
> 
> I dunno how often the rogues have been discussed, so if Im beating a dead horse we can limit it to "Should Roxy Rocket be a Nightwing villain?"


I'm always up for expanding Dick's rogues gallery, maybe include Owlman somehow, or a Grayson who became Talon? What about Tarantula? I think there could be some Kryptonian's who would take exception to his using the name of a famed hero from their world.

I agree with your suggestions, and I think the globetrotting of Grayson and the early Rebirth-Nightwing was great. The Bludhaven stuff could work if they grow Dick's rogues gallery. Do you have nay specific stories in mind with any of your suggestions?

----------


## oasis1313

I haven't read any of Roxy's material, but she sounds like an enjoyable villainess for Dick.  Some FUN would be nice in Dick's book.   It's better than Dick sitting around in Spandex Anonymous meetings.

----------


## jbmasta

> Yeah, he could face nightmare versions of certain characters, or threats that he wouldn't normally face in the main universe. And you could have a B-story or backup where the Batfamily or the Titans struggle to bring him back.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm always up for expanding Dick's rogues gallery, maybe include Owlman somehow, or a Grayson who became Talon? What about Tarantula? I think there could be some Kryptonian's who would take exception to his using the name of a famed hero from their world.
> 
> I agree with your suggestions, and I think the globetrotting of Grayson and the early Rebirth-Nightwing was great. The Bludhaven stuff could work if they grow Dick's rogues gallery. Do you have nay specific stories in mind with any of your suggestions?


A Dick Grayson Talon from another universe, or even a split personality, has potential. The distinctive Nightwing style, but taken to a killer level would provide Dick with a mystery to solve and be a decent way to do the cliched hero with bad publicity angle. His greatest enemy is quite literally himself. It'd also be a nice way to bring Damian in, and he has to remember how he used to be and compare it to how he is now.

In the final issue of Grayson (not counting the Annual #3) had Dick summon his various identities, including the Talon he never was, in a mental battle with Doctor Daedalus.

----------


## Godlike13

Lady Vic needs to make a proper reintroduction.

----------


## K Nikk

> So, random question. The Roxy Rocket thread got me thinking, and she's a villain I want to see as part of Dick's rogues gallery. I think Roxy would be perfect as Nightwing's "Catwoman" villain; the one with all the sexual tension and the hope that she might turn her life around one day. The more I think about this, the more I want to see it. What do you guys think?


One of the reasons Catwoman/Batman relationship worked for me is that even from early on there was a hint of both of them trying to help/protect each other even when they HAD to be adversarial on the surface.  She was often helpful (though refused to call it helping "I won't help.  But I can be helpful" <- Long Hallowe'en) even when she didn't have to be which I took as respecting what he was trying to do.  When caught in her diabolical traps she would give Batman a way out (it's not always about HER being let go!  She was the one letting HIM go as well) even at risk of backlash from her own people - who are probably more dangerous to her than Batman is.  That equalness in their consideration for each other made the attraction fun.  

Detective Comics 211 (paraphrased)
Henchman: hey we caught Batman and Robin.  Let's shoot them!  
Catwoman:  Stop!  Cut them down!  
Henchman:  Why?  He's right here.  We can get rid of him right now!  
Catwoman:  I have a better plan.  Cut them down and give them a headstart and then I will hunt them with my wild cats!  ~btw you can't come along, so you don't see me steer my Wildcats away from where they are hiding so that they can get away~  Oh and they have to be stripped nearly naked, but leave their cowls on! ~mmmm batman, but i will protect their identities too~

Their early interactions were so fun.

Most hero's do have a villain romantic interest based on sexual tension and I could see Roxy being that for Nightwing; but to match the Catwoman dynamic you need them both to be willing to help each other and sacrifice for the other, even when they are going about their different paths, and even when it pains them to do so.  It can't be just about Nightwing trying to reform Roxy because of their mutual attraction to be a Catwoman type character for him.

But yes, a fun femme-fatale would be enjoyable, and Roxy seems fun.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a18/1801/e2/b786569deba2.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bdp16srAX4h/

NTT homage by Phil Jimenez 

[IMG]https://b.***********/b25/1801/61/40f387531fb4.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdEDtXCgqTd/

----------


## wvchemteach

> So, random question. The Roxy Rocket thread got me thinking, and she's a villain I want to see as part of Dick's rogues gallery. I think Roxy would be perfect as Nightwing's "Catwoman" villain; the one with all the sexual tension and the hope that she might turn her life around one day. The more I think about this, the more I want to see it. What do you guys think?
> 
> Also, I think Nightwing's rogues gallery should be heavily women, lots of femme fatales and such. Very James Bond-ish....except Dick doesn't have to sleep with all of them.
> 
> Who does he have for rogues who are solidly, well entrenched in his mythos? Rogues you *cant* just ignore for too long. He's got Blockbuster.....Raptor perhaps.....maybe the Court of Owls if you dont consider that just borrowing from Bruce.......is there anyone else?
> 
> Who needs more attention? Who should jump ship from another franchise? I'd love to see Deathwing used more (as the classic dark mirror foe), Spyral (as the global organization threat, akin to Intergang or the League of Assassins), Lady Vic (as the cold blooded hired hand), Roxy Rocket (as the thrill seeking troublemaker and "lust interest" foe), and Volcana (a pyrokinetic villain from the Superman cartoon). And you know, crazy as it sounds, if the Super-books aren't doing anything with her....Maxima, who maybe thinks that, even though humans are weak and pathetic, Nightwing's butt makes up for it and he'd make a worthy consort for Almerac. It's funny and scary at the same time.
> 
> I dunno how often the rogues have been discussed, so if Im beating a dead horse we can limit it to "Should Roxy Rocket be a Nightwing villain?"


Personally I like trolling through the C and D list of various Rogue Galleries and seeing how they can be reimagined into a legitimate menace.

I thought Higgins did that wonderfully with the Prankster during New 52.

Another thought I had was perhaps the Electrocutioner, Lock-Up, Black Spider, and Tarantula setting up in Bludhaven as more extreme vigilantes and you have Dick having to take them down, then they come back individually or together for revenge on Nightwing.

The Club of Villains would be a nice international type group of villains for Nightwing.

The whole Circus of the Strange fits well as a Nightwing villains.

Catgirl could be a potential Catwoman-like foe.

Doctor Death has a lot of potential.

Double Dare also has that potential for a Catwoman-like pair of foes and hey it is Dick why not have two femme fatale sisters fighting over him.

A redesigned Eraser could be an excellent foil.

A reintroduced Lady Vic would always be exciting.

A re-imagined Onomatopoeia could be a good challenge as well.

Zeiss could be amped up to be a Bane-like villain for Dick.

Additionally, Shrike and Seiko, and Feedback all have potential for Nightwing villains as they all have personal connections to Dick Grayson.

----------


## Ascended

> Do you have nay specific stories in mind with any of your suggestions?


Nothing overly concrete, more like little snippets of interaction, or vague plot outlines. Mostly what I have are roles that certain villains could fill in the gallery. Y'know how heroes all have certain types of villains? The dark mirror, the global agency, the overpowered villain the hero can't beat in a straight up fight, the mobster, etc. I've just been thinking about who could fill various spots in the gallery.

With Roxy in particular I envision a very Catwoman-esque game of "cat and mouse" where she steals something and causes some mayhem and Dick chases her through town while they throw banter and flirt. Have her throw him a little help now and then, as another poster mentioned with Selina and Bruce.

Lady Vic I have a few ideas for, but those are mostly just turning her into a "Deathstroke" who could be part of Dick's rogues gallery, since Slade himself is a solo act and can't throw down against the heroes without a lot of back-and-forth between creative teams. 

I do have some ideas for the Mad Mod becoming a Bludhaven-based "villain vendor" who hooks the bad guys up with gear and fences their stolen goods, using a retro style, hipster-friendly dance club as a front for his activity. Sort of like the guy in Central City who provides the gear for the Rogues. Not a "villain" precisely, but someone who adds some flavor to the Blud.

----------


## Ascended

> I thought Higgins did that wonderfully with the Prankster during New 52.


I thought it was a great take on the Prankster but it felt a little too close to Anarchy to me for some reason. Wouldn't be against it though. Odds are Prankster won't get much love from the Super-books, and the last time someone did something with him it was forgotten as soon as the writer left (Busiek, I believe it was).




> Another thought I had was perhaps the Electrocutioner, Lock-Up, Black Spider, and Tarantula setting up in Bludhaven as more extreme vigilantes and you have Dick having to take them down, then they come back individually or together for revenge on Nightwing.


I'd be game for Tarantula returning in almost any form. Lot of good stuff to work with there, considering the history. Lock-Up is a good idea too, I hadn't thought of him.

Electrocutioner should definitely return as a Nightwing foe....but only if he brings Plastique with him so we can get a return of the Bomb Squad!!




> The whole Circus of the Strange fits well as a Nightwing villains.


Why can I not remember who/what that is?




> Double Dare also has that potential for a Catwoman-like pair of foes and hey it is Dick why not have two femme fatale sisters fighting over him.


Double Dare! That was their name! I was going to mention them last night but couldn't think of what they were called. Closest I got was "Double Trouble" but that didn't sound right. And given how late it was, I didnt have it in me to Google them. But yes, they absolutely should return.




> A reintroduced Lady Vic would always be exciting.


Its a shame she's fallen into limbo. Such a fun bad guy!




> A re-imagined Onomatopoeia could be a good challenge as well.


I love that villain and wouldn't mind seeing him go up against Nightwing but I'd feel bad about it. Ollie doesn't have a lot of great villains in the first place, I feel like he's also someone who's rogues need some work and we shouldn't be poaching the few decent ones he has.  :Smile: 

I was also wondering if there's anything left to be said with Nite-Wing, the guy Dick took under his wing during Dixon's run who ended up being a monster. I feel like his story ran its course but he had a lot of good showings back in the day......

So concerning the Court of Owls and the Talons.....obviously Dick has connections there, but could they be used as part of Dick's regular rogues gallery? I feel like maybe they're too firmly established as Bruce's villains for anything more than an occasional appearance. Or is that just me? I mean, if nothing else, I'd be down with a Talon (perhaps the one related to Dick) who decides to go rogue and hunt Dick down regardless of what the Court says.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to ask. I dropped Nightwing in favor of trade waiting right before Deathwing showed up, and haven't caught up on the trades (damn school and the holidays for getting in the way of my comics!) What's his deal now? Future version of Nightwing from an alternate reality? Clone? Psycho copycat? Whatever he is, he's worth keeping around just for the "evil version" factor but I cant say I know anything about his current version.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a43/1801/2c/27351494ba22.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.**********.com/artwork/J6qLa

----------


## wvchemteach

> I thought it was a great take on the Prankster but it felt a little too close to Anarchy to me for some reason. Wouldn't be against it though. Odds are Prankster won't get much love from the Super-books, and the last time someone did something with him it was forgotten as soon as the writer left (Busiek, I believe it was).
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be game for Tarantula returning in almost any form. Lot of good stuff to work with there, considering the history. Lock-Up is a good idea too, I hadn't thought of him.
> 
> Electrocutioner should definitely return as a Nightwing foe....but only if he brings Plastique with him so we can get a return of the Bomb Squad!!
> 
> 
> ...


Circus of the Strange were Professor Pyg's lackeys when they first showed up on Morrison's Batman and Robin run. And to answer your question about Deathwing... he is connected to Professor Pyg.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Professor Pyg was a natural fit for a Nightwing villain, especially as he was pretty much a Dick (as Batman II) villain already. I've long said that the villains introduced in Morrison's run should be given to Nightwing, as he has a solid claim to a lot of them already, and they are not being used all that much in the main Batman books. Bruce already has a massive rogues gallery, and people keep adding to it. Why not have them share Dr. Hurt, and give Pyg/the Circus of the Strange, Flamingo, Dr. Dedalus and the International Club of Villains to Nightwing? Combined with some old Titans foes that could float in and out, as well as some of Seeley's better creations (Raptor of course, Deathwing, and Dr. Levictus, who was delightful and should have been used way more), and Nightwing would have a solid group of recurring villains of his own. And much like Pyg and Flamingo, maybe they could introduce present day versions of Damian's future villains: Max Roboto, the Weasel, and the name dropped but unseen Loveless, Candyman and the Sphinx. 

Just don't tie him or them down to any one location; hero vs. villains one city doesn't really work for Dick, but these particular villains aren't tied down to one place either.

----------


## oasis1313

Please . . . not Tarantula . . . never her . . . never again . . . anything but her . . . ugh . . .

----------


## Ascended

> Circus of the Strange were Professor Pyg's lackeys when they first showed up on Morrison's Batman and Robin run. And to answer your question about Deathwing... he is connected to Professor Pyg.


Oh yeah! I forgot all about those guys! 

They should absolutely be Nightwing foes. I mean, they sort of are already considering Dick was wearing the Bat cowl when they first showed up. And Deathwing is connected to Pyg? Man I gotta get caught up!

----------


## K Nikk

> With Roxy in particular I envision a very Catwoman-esque game of "cat and mouse" where she steals something and causes some mayhem and Dick chases her through town while they throw banter and flirt. Have her throw him a little help now and then, as another poster mentioned with Selina and Bruce.


I don't know Roxy very well but I understand she gets a thrill out of taking risks.  As a circus kid Dick should love taking risks too, so I think that could be a match that makes a chase between them fun.  The cat-mouse could be more "I dare you to follow me through here!  I dare you to do this!  I dare you to climb up here!  I dare you to stay on this speeding car driving off the cliff!" - they would both be getting a thrill out of the competition and a nice break for Dick from facing villains who are trying to kill him.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a18/1801/e2/b786569deba2.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bdp16srAX4h/
> 
> NTT homage by Phil Jimenez


They should cancel both current Titan books and give us an NTT Rebirth, and pair Jimenez up with a writer new to the franchise who can inject some fresh ideas. Mix the best of the old (as Jimenez, the closest thing to Perez, can deliver) with some legitimately new stuff. 




> Oh yeah! I forgot all about those guys! 
> 
> They should absolutely be Nightwing foes. I mean, they sort of are already considering Dick was wearing the Bat cowl when they first showed up. And Deathwing is connected to Pyg? Man I gotta get caught up!


*spoilers:*
The new Deathwing is one of Pyg's Dollotrons, and is on his way to recovery by the end of the story. But that doesn't have to take, and he can remain as a villain. We also get to see the old school Deathwing in a cameo as Dick gets a glimpse of his alternate universe selves.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a09/1801/a8/93a85a98e8b9.jpg[/IMG]

Dick & Babs

[IMG]https://c.***********/c06/1801/db/520380404bd1.jpg[/IMG]

http://avataraandy.tumblr.com/post/1...-this-issue-so

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## Hizashi

It didn't occur to me until now, but what role, if any, would y'all give Harley if she were to be included in Dick's rogues gallery? Or do y'all think she's become too much of a solo act to work as a member of anyone else's rogues?

----------


## Aioros22

You mean Harley Queen?

----------


## Pohzee

If Harley's too big for Batman, she's definitely too big for Nightwing.

It'd actually kind of make sense because both are sidekicks (or henchwoman) of sorts that stepped out on their own, but Harley is too insufferable for me to appreciate that similarity.

----------


## adrikito

the brothers:

Screen Shot 089.jpg

----------


## Ascended

> It didn't occur to me until now, but what role, if any, would y'all give Harley if she were to be included in Dick's rogues gallery? Or do y'all think she's become too much of a solo act to work as a member of anyone else's rogues?


She's too much of a solo act. Just like Slade, who otherwise would be a great nemesis for Dick.

That said, Im not against the idea of these two interacting on occasion. The fact that they're both former sidekicks provides a unique viewpoint that few others can understand, and I think the dynamic between them could be a lot of fun now that Harley's moved solidly into anti-hero territory. 

So I wouldn't be against a guest appearance or even a brief crossover between books, but Harley's not going to be part of anyone's rogues gallery anytime soon, if ever again.

----------


## oasis1313

> She's too much of a solo act. Just like Slade, who otherwise would be a great nemesis for Dick.
> 
> That said, Im not against the idea of these two interacting on occasion. The fact that they're both former sidekicks provides a unique viewpoint that few others can understand, and I think the dynamic between them could be a lot of fun now that Harley's moved solidly into anti-hero territory. 
> 
> So I wouldn't be against a guest appearance or even a brief crossover between books, but Harley's not going to be part of anyone's rogues gallery anytime soon, if ever again.


I wouldn't have a problem with her dropping in now and again.  She's good at unrequited love.

----------


## Hizashi

> If Harley's too big for Batman, she's definitely too big for Nightwing.
> 
> It'd actually kind of make sense because both are sidekicks (or henchwoman) of sorts that stepped out on their own, but Harley is too insufferable for me to appreciate that similarity.


I didn't know she was too big for Batman, her stock rose more than I thought or was aware of. 




> She's too much of a solo act. Just like Slade, who otherwise would be a great nemesis for Dick.
> 
> That said, Im not against the idea of these two interacting on occasion. The fact that they're both former sidekicks provides a unique viewpoint that few others can understand, and I think the dynamic between them could be a lot of fun now that Harley's moved solidly into anti-hero territory. 
> 
> So I wouldn't be against a guest appearance or even a brief crossover between books, but Harley's not going to be part of anyone's rogues gallery anytime soon, if ever again.


Yeah, I suppose a pop-in every once in a while would do. Consistency is the key; I didn't like Helena's involvement in Nightwing, since she was in and out.

----------


## K Nikk

I am very naïve about Nightwing. Who are his major antagonists?  ie. Batman -> Joker, Superman -> Lex Luthor.  etc. I can understand Nightwing not having a Nemesis to that degree (Wonder Woman should be a rank above and I don't know her Nemesis), but who are HIS enemies?

[I am trying to branch out from my favourites.  I recognize that I don't have the comic background that I should but I'm willing to learn]

----------


## Aioros22

Harley Queen is the new Deathstroke. Her stock in the franchise merits a placement on her own, why would she be a nemesis of Grayson? Because of unrequited sex from a movie?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I am very naïve about Nightwing. Who are his major antagonists?  ie. Batman -> Joker, Superman -> Lex Luthor.  etc. I can understand Nightwing not having a Nemesis to that degree (Wonder Woman should be a rank above and I don't know her Nemesis), but who are HIS enemies?
> 
> [I am trying to branch out from my favourites.  I recognize that I don't have the comic background that I should but I'm willing to learn]


Raptor, Blockbuster. The current arc is still developing the Judge, and many older villains are just irrelevant now. Not too many others, honestly. He has a lot of shared villains, i.e Deathstroke or Dr. Hurt.

----------


## oasis1313

> I am very naïve about Nightwing. Who are his major antagonists?  ie. Batman -> Joker, Superman -> Lex Luthor.  etc. I can understand Nightwing not having a Nemesis to that degree (Wonder Woman should be a rank above and I don't know her Nemesis), but who are HIS enemies?
> 
> [I am trying to branch out from my favourites.  I recognize that I don't have the comic background that I should but I'm willing to learn]


Nightwing's enemies are the Editorial and Creative Staffs at DC.

----------


## nightbird



----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c33/1801/f5/10ba190b5669.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/109ddong/status/...667896320?s=17

----------


## ayanestar

I kinda have to catch up with quite a lot of comics lol I've been out of the loop for like months because of work and university.
I've seen that I've missed out on so much including the Metal crossover (there are quite a lot tie-ins) so yeah would anyone be so nice to tell me if I've missed anything important? Anything related to Dick?

----------


## oasis1313

> I kinda have to catch up with quite a lot of comics lol I've been out of the loop for like months because of work and university.
> I've seen that I've missed out on so much including the Metal crossover (there are quite a lot tie-ins) so yeah would anyone be so nice to tell me if I've missed anything important? Anything related to Dick?


You're not missing anything.  Book is Dicked Out and useless.  Wait for the trade paperback (not the hardcover--wait for the trade).

----------


## Hizashi

> Harley Queen is the new Deathstroke. Her stock in the franchise merits a placement on her own, why would she be a nemesis of Grayson? Because of unrequited sex from a movie?


Nah, no specific reason for the suggestion, we were kinda just throwing names out there and I hadn't seen hers yet. I haven't seen the movie you're referencing.

----------


## Badou

I've said this before but I don't think it is possible to build a rogues gallery for a character in modern comics. I don't know how many years it has been now where people are still having the same conversation about Nightwing and his "rogues". Characters that have rogues galleries only have them because they have had them for decades and they were grandfathered in. I still stand by this statement and I've seen nothing to dissuade me from it. So spending so much time and effort in trying to build a rogues gallery for a character that doesn't have one on the level of Batman or Spider-man is a waste of time, in my opinion. 

I'm not saying stop making new villains, but I think you have to build villains that will fit into the DCU instead of just for one specific character these days. It is also important to use villains across the DC. If you want to write an arc where Circe faces off against Nightwing then do it. I just don't understand limiting yourself to just a small handful of villains (most of which no one cares about) when the DCU has them in abidance. Maybe there are limitations across different editorial groups, but I think the notion of "building a rogues gallery for a character" is just such an archaic way to write comics.

----------


## Frontier

> I've said this before but I don't think it is possible to build a rogues gallery for a character in modern comics. I don't know how many years it has been now where people are still having the same conversation about Nightwing and his "rogues". Characters that have rogues galleries only have them because they have had them for decades and they were grandfathered in. I still stand by this statement and I've seen nothing to dissuade me from it. So spending so much time and effort in trying to build a rogues gallery for a character that doesn't have one on the level of Batman or Spider-man is a waste of time, in my opinion. 
> 
> I'm not saying stop making new villains, but I think you have to build villains that will fit into the DCU instead of just for one specific character these days. It is also important to use villains across the DC. If you want to write an arc where Circe faces off against Nightwing then do it. I just don't understand limiting yourself to just a small handful of villains (most of which no one cares about) when the DCU has them in abidance. Maybe there are limitations across different editorial groups, but I think the notion of "building a rogues gallery for a character" is just such an archaic way to write comics.


I think having a rotating roster of recurring villains is just an expected trait for ongoing, serialized, comics because it gives writers something to build from and work with for that character that you don't really get with random villain of the weeks with no connection that hero. 

You can probably use other, already existing, DC villains but then people will probably get the idea that you're trying to re-appropriate those characters for that heroes Rogues Gallery, or otherwise just feel like a one-off.

----------


## Elegant Dreamer

> Nightwing's enemies are the Editorial and Creative Staffs at DC.


I knew I wasn't crazy!  I was right all along about Dick Grayson's true foes!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Badou

> I think having a rotating roster of recurring villains is just an expected trait for ongoing, serialized, comics because it gives writers something to build from and work with for that character that you don't really get with random villain of the weeks with no connection that hero. 
> 
> You can probably use other, already existing, DC villains but then people will probably get the idea that you're trying to re-appropriate those characters for that heroes Rogues Gallery, or otherwise just feel like a one-off.


That is the case for characters who are secure in their position, like a Spider-man, Batman or a Superman. Creators can build on those characters because they aren't in danger of having their foundation erased. A character like a Nightwing or characters of his level are in a state of flux. Creators are constantly trying to rebuild the character or reboots are wiping the slate clean. So very rarely do things stick to the character. 

Also arcs today rarely are "one-offs". They tend to last for multiple issues, and you aren't really just throwing out a villain from a different franchise for an issue or two, but would be building an entire arc around that villain and story. Though I suppose it is also a difference in philosophy. DC tends to keep its properties very segmented while Marvel feels a lot more fluid where its characters dip in and out of franchises and move around the MCU fighting villains and problems all over the place.

Again I didn't say just use all existing villains and you should still create new ones, but I think the mindset of wanting to "create a rogues gallery for X character" is a very flawed one for modern comics. The days of introducing a new villain every issue are long gone and characters just don't quickly develop this deep pool of villains to use anymore where some stick around. Creators are basically building their runs around a few villains and if none of them stick you are basically back to square one with the new creative team. It is a cycle that keeps repeating over and over.

----------


## oasis1313

> I knew I wasn't crazy!  I was right all along about Dick Grayson's true foes!


After reading about Dick Grayson for over sixty unbroken years--you start noticing certain trends (maybe because you're constantly being bludgeoned over the head with them because lazy DC knows no other way).

----------


## Frontier

> That is the case for characters who are secure in their position, like a Spider-man, Batman or a Superman. Creators can build on those characters because they aren't in danger of having their foundation erased. A character like a Nightwing or characters of his level are in a state of flux. Creators are constantly trying to rebuild the character or reboots are wiping the slate clean. So very rarely do things stick to the character.


But every creator, whether they be on an A-list, B-List, or C-List character generally tries to build similar foundations for the title their on even if they're book will only last for 6-16 issues.

Nightwing is probably in a better position then most characters because he can actually hold a solo book, so it's easier to build or maintain a foundation unless future writers just completely do their own thing once they take over. But that happens even to more secure A-list characters. 




> Also arcs today rarely are "one-offs". They tend to last for multiple issues, and you aren't really just throwing out a villain from a different franchise for an issue or two, but would be building an entire arc around that villain and story. Though I suppose it is also a difference in philosophy. DC tends to keep its properties very segmented while Marvel feels a lot more fluid where its characters dip in and out of franchises and move around the MCU fighting villains and problems all over the place.


I'm not the biggest fan of that fluidity myself, but to each their own.

----------


## Ascended

> I've said this before but I don't think it is possible to build a rogues gallery for a character in modern comics.


I dont completely disagree with you, as it is much harder, sometimes maybe even impossible, to build a rogues gallery now. Nor am I trying to change your mind. But I think (this is just my opinion) it depends on the IP's staying power and what passes for editorial habits these days, rather than some inherent aspect of the market.

Consider a character like, say, Moon Knight. Gets a series every few years, but its usually cancelled quickly. It (can) makes sense for the next creative team and editorial to say "the last series failed (probably badly), so clearly we need to move away from what they did and try something new." So to that end, yeah its almost impossible for a villain to gain any traction. They get forgotten just like everything else about the previous series.

With a character who's proven popular enough to sustain a book long-term, it's a bit different. Consider Ms. Marvel; a relatively new character who doesn't have decades of history but still holds down a title. She's developing a rogues galley with several (original) recurring villains. She has new ones coming in all the time, and most of them don't return, but more than a few have come back for second, even third, appearances. Thanks to solid, consistent sales and a stable creative team, she's building a mythos for herself. Including bad guys.

Nightwing is sort of in the same boat; he's popular enough to hold down a book (mostly) long term. However, he's got two problems here. The first is his editorial, which seem perfectly fine with new creative teams dumping the past to start fresh, even when the recent past wasn't irredeemable (or even bad). This isn't good editing, but it's been DC's model for decades, especially concerning certain characters (like Wonder Woman). And the first, primary problem is that Dick's a DC character, and as long as DC worships at the alter of the Bat, Nightwing will always be at the mercy of the Bat-titles, which removes some agency and autonomy from his creators.

So building a rogues gallery for Dick *can* be done, it just *isnt* being done. Nothing can be done about Nightwing having to play by Bat-office rules, but the editorial model is easy to change. 




> So spending so much time and effort in trying to build a rogues gallery for a character that doesn't have one on the level of Batman or Spider-man is a waste of time, in my opinion.


No one is ever going to have a rogues gallery like those guys. They've been around the better part of a century; no one is gonna catch up. But that's not what people are asking for here either, we're just acknowledging that good recurring villains make for a better book and thinking about who fits Nightwing. 




> It is also important to use villains across the DC. I just don't understand limiting yourself to just a small handful of villains (most of which no one cares about) when the DCU has them in abidance.


Also very true. Im a big fan of poaching villains. And everyone here is doing that; mentioning villains from the Batman, Titans, and Superman properties who could be used better in Nightwing, or at least borrowed on a semi-regular basis.

----------


## jbmasta

> Nightwing is sort of in the same boat; he's popular enough to hold down a book (mostly) long term. However, he's got two problems here. The first is his editorial, which seem perfectly fine with new creative teams dumping the past to start fresh, even when the recent past wasn't irredeemable (or even bad). This isn't good editing, but it's been DC's model for decades, especially concerning certain characters (like Wonder Woman). And the first, primary problem is that Dick's a DC character, and as long as DC worships at the alter of the Bat, Nightwing will always be at the mercy of the Bat-titles, which removes some agency and autonomy from his creators.
> 
> So building a rogues gallery for Dick *can* be done, it just *isnt* being done. Nothing can be done about Nightwing having to play by Bat-office rules, but the editorial model is easy to change.


A good comparison would be in New 52, Nightwing vs Grayson, subject: crossovers and events. Nightwing: Night of the Owls, Death of the Family and Forever Evil (which pretty much ended the title in its New 52 incarnation). Grayson: Robin War (1 issue). Crossovers and events can be good, but they shouldn't hijack or impact ongoing storylines going on outside the title unless it's done to benefit the title. Death of the Family ended the Halley's Circus arc and Dick moved to Chicago. As already mentioned Forever Evil saw the Nightwing title come to an end (with the key event not even in the pages of Nightwing). Meanwhile Robin War was one issue of Grayson and that issue is easily skippable. Rebirth has followed like this, where the Monster Men and Metal tie-ins were two and one issues respectively, meaning you can skip those.

----------


## jbmasta

> Harley Queen is the new Deathstroke. Her stock in the franchise merits a placement on her own, why would she be a nemesis of Grayson? Because of unrequited sex from a movie?


She appeared in the final issue, the third annual, of Grayson. Then again, it also featured Constantine and Green Lantern Simon Baz, not the first characters you'd expect in a Dick Grayson book.

----------


## Godlike13

I think DC would be more interested in having Dick and Harley bang then fight.

----------


## Badou

> With a character who's proven popular enough to sustain a book long-term, it's a bit different. Consider Ms. Marvel; a relatively new character who doesn't have decades of history but still holds down a title. She's developing a rogues galley with several (original) recurring villains. She has new ones coming in all the time, and most of them don't return, but more than a few have come back for second, even third, appearances. Thanks to solid, consistent sales and a stable creative team, she's building a mythos for herself. Including bad guys.


I wouldn't say Ms Marvel has a rogues gallery though, but it is also important to note that she has only ever had 1 writer on her solo book. That is key I think. Once she leaves and other writers come on they will change things around and over time she will be less capable of holding down a solo book. Being able to hold down a solo book from creator to creator I think is something probably less than two dozen characters can even do. Nightwing is one of them and everyone is comparing him to such a short list of characters at this point. 




> No one is ever going to have a rogues gallery like those guys. They've been around the better part of a century; no one is gonna catch up. But that's not what people are asking for here either, we're just acknowledging that good recurring villains make for a better book and thinking about who fits Nightwing.


Actually him having a rogues gallery on their level is what everyone is asking, even if they aren't aware I think. If they weren't then this wouldn't be a conversation. When you list off all of DC's heroes and their accompanying "rogues gallery" Dick/Nightwing probably only falls behind Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and maybe a Green Arrow? Basically he is only behind characters that have had a solo book for decades yet people still ask why doesn't he have a rogues gallery or a good rogues gallery. 

So few heroes in DC even have a rogues gallery and even fewer have one on the level of Dick/Nightwing. The only ones that have a bigger one are those top level characters that everyone looks to as an example for what a rogues gallery should be, but most if not all of them developed their gallery when comics were in a different era. So sure Dick doesn't have a good or very interesting gallery but so do the vast majority of characters, and in Dick's case his is bigger than everyone of comparable level. The fact that Dick is in his position yet people still ask why doesn't he have a good rogues gallery makes me believe that he will never have a good one that people will be satisfied with because I don't think it is possible in this day and age to build one on the level of those characters right above Dick in modern comics.

----------


## JasonTodd428

The sad thing is Dick has been around as long or longer than some of the characters above him and yet because he was connected at the hip to Batman for decades he never had a chance to develop his own rogues gallery like those other characters did back at that time. That right there I think is the crux of the whole problem and why fans feel he should have his own rogues gallery.

----------


## Ascended

> I wouldn't say Ms Marvel has a rogues gallery though,


Not a fully formed one, but it's being slowly built over time. Just like everyone else's rogues galleries were back in the day. And so far its working (slowly of course, but still working, and this isn't something that can be artificially done over the course of six months)




> but it is also important to note that she has only ever had 1 writer on her solo book. That is key I think. Once she leaves and other writers come on they will change things around and over time she will be less capable of holding down a solo book.


Writer consistency is definitely a big part of it, yeah. Whether the character (and her villains) can maintain after a creative shift......time will tell on that one. Given that writers are allowed to dump everything and start fresh, even when there's no quality/sales reason to do so, is troubling and doesnt fill me with hope. But thats about editorial methods, its not about the market itself.




> Being able to hold down a solo book from creator to creator I think is something probably less than two dozen characters can even do. Nightwing is one of them and everyone is comparing him to such a short list of characters at this point.


 Well, Dick's been around longer than almost anyone. I think he's actually one of only five *truly* iconic comic book characters (everyone knows "Batman and Robin" and Dick usually fills that role in larger media). So the guy deserves to be compared to the other big names, even if he's no longer as recognizable as he used to be (name change and all that) There's a handicap there, and he's not *quite* on the same level, but he's close enough for jazz.




> So few heroes in DC even have a rogues gallery and even fewer have one on the level of Dick/Nightwing.


Which is no reason to stop building Dick's villains. Nor is it a reason to stop putting in effort with other characters for that matter. A good villain is an important part of heroic fiction. What I see here is a problem to be solved, not a constant to be adhered to.

The reason no one has a decent rogues gallery is because writers aren't encouraged to build on what came before. That's the problem, its not some sort of market issue where fans don't want good recurring villains. Readers *want* good villains, which is why these discussions keep coming up. Its the writers and editors who dont want to put in the time and effort. That's easy to change, you just change the editors.




> The fact that Dick is in his position yet people still ask why doesn't he have a good rogues gallery makes me believe that he will never have a good one that people will be satisfied with because I don't think it is possible in this day and age to build one on the level of those characters right above Dick in modern comics.


Well, we still complain about the major rogues galleries too. We complain about how Lex Luthor and the Joker are used, or that they're over-used, or that foes like Parasite or Clayface aren't developed enough, or that the current version isn't as good as a previous one, etc. Fans complain about everything, and even if Nightwing had a great rogues gallery, we'd still complain about it.

And I think its entirely possible to build a good rogues gallery in today's market. Take a look at Invincible; it built an amazing rogues gallery despite killing characters off all the time (and forever). Amstrom Levy, the Sequids, the Mauler Twins, Conquest, Dinosaurus....there are a bunch of great recurring villains in that book. Granted, most of them are dead now, but the book is ending so everyone is dying anyway. As with Ms. Marvel, the book benefits from a single writer, but that's a small hurdle to leap over.

DC could do the same, they'd just have to change the editorial model and stop letting writers do whatever they want at the expense of developing established assets. Seriously, its that simple. Will it happen? Probably not under the current administrators, no. But just because those people aren't making it happen doesnt mean it *cant* happen.

----------


## Frontier

> I think DC would be more interested in having Dick and Harley bang then fight.


It's not like he could arrest her. It seems like all the Sirens are now too popular for the Batfamily to bust them anymore  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> The sad thing is Dick has been around as long or longer than some of the characters above him and yet because he was connected at the hip to Batman for decades he never had a chance to develop his own rogues gallery like those other characters did back at that time. That right there I think is the crux of the whole problem and why fans feel he should have his own rogues gallery.


Cyborg is really in his spot on the Justice league

But can we really Blame it on Batman Harley Broke free, although she is trapped on the SS squad for life

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's not like he could arrest her. It seems like all the Sirens are now too popular for the Batfamily to bust them anymore .


Poison Ivy fans dont want her to kill anymore, she not dating batman and unlike harly she entered a world of crime on her own
she should be ttreated like the rest of the rouges but being both a female and  love interest of  harley

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Cyborg is really in his spot on the Justice league


It actually irritates me that Dick isn't a member of the JL. hE has been around just as long if not longer than some of it's members with only Bats and Supes being older, and he has the necessary experience as well. Once his time with the Titans was finished and before all the nonsense Titan reunion books started happening would have been a good time to slot him into the JL under the Nightwing mantle. I know people say that having two Bats on the team would have been stupid but Dick is a totally different person from Bruce and I think it could have worked under the right writer. 




> But can we really Blame it on Batman Harley Broke free, although she is trapped on the SS squad for life


Harley was not connected at the hip to Batman like Dick was though so I don't think its quite the same thing at all. Dick was Robin for decades before they even started moving him out of the Batman book and out on his own. I believe that if they had allowed him to be aged up sooner he could have been out on his own decades sooner and would thus have an established rogues gallery at this point like Batman and the rest have. If that had happened then all current writers would have been doing was adding to it and it wouldn't matter half as much if a new writer came in and decided to wipe the slate clean from the previous writer because there would have been the basic rogues gallery to fall back on.

----------


## Frontier

Batman and Nightwing in a League together would just remind me of Batman and Robin in the League together  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Batman and Nightwing in a League together would just remind me of Batman and Robin in the League together .


Doesn't change the fact that his character has existed for longer than almost everyone else on the League and he does have the necessary experience to be a member.  :Stick Out Tongue:  It would be one thing he if he said at some point that he didn't want to join the JL as he did in the Young Justice cartoon but I'm not sure that he's ever said that.

----------


## Frontier

> Doesn't change the fact that his character has existed for longer than almost everyone else on the League and he does have the necessary experience to be a member.  It would be one thing he if he said at some point that he didn't want to join the JL as he did in the Young Justice cartoon but I'm not sure that he's ever said that.


I just don't really feel the need to see Dick in the Justice League. 

That's not to say he wouldn't be fun on the team, though I think he'd work better without Bruce in it as well. 

Of course, it probably helps that there are older members of the team who I would rather see back then I do seeing Dick on the team.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That's not to say he wouldn't be fun on the team, though I think he'd work better without Bruce in it as well.


I do agree with that. At least I'd would much rather see Dick on the team without Bruce being involved in the story he's in.   




> Of course, it probably helps that there are older members of the team who I would rather see back then I do seeing Dick on the team.


Honestly, there isn't any reason Dick couldn't become a member if they expanded the roster of the JL. (Something like Justice League Unlimited.) If they did that then older members could make a return and maybe they could add some new ones at the same time.

----------


## Ascended

> I just don't really feel the need to see Dick in the Justice League. 
> 
> That's not to say he wouldn't be fun on the team, though I think he'd work better without Bruce in it as well. 
> 
> Of course, it probably helps that there are older members of the team who I would rather see back then I do seeing Dick on the team.


I know it'll never happen, but I'd be perfectly fine with Nightwing replacing Batman in the League.

Dick's a better team player, a better leader, has as much experience dealing with superhuman threats, and is just as capable a fighter (though he does lack the endless supply of gadgets and toys). He's not nearly as skilled a tactician or scientist, but that just means Diana and Barry get to do more stuff. 

I prefer Bruce when he's just focused entirely on Gotham, or at most using the Outsiders to do his dirty work beyond city limits.

It'll never happen, but I'd be quite happy to see it.

----------


## Hizashi

> I know it'll never happen, but I'd be perfectly fine with Nightwing replacing Batman in the League.
> 
> Dick's a better team player, a better leader, has as much experience dealing with superhuman threats, and is just as capable a fighter (though he does lack the endless supply of gadgets and toys). He's not nearly as skilled a tactician or scientist, but that just means Diana and Barry get to do more stuff. 
> 
> I prefer Bruce when he's just focused entirely on Gotham, or at most using the Outsiders to do his dirty work beyond city limits.
> 
> It'll never happen, but I'd be quite happy to see it.


You've got my vote. Besides, isn't Batman in another league...?

----------


## oasis1313

> I know it'll never happen, but I'd be perfectly fine with Nightwing replacing Batman in the League.
> 
> Dick's a better team player, a better leader, has as much experience dealing with superhuman threats, and is just as capable a fighter (though he does lack the endless supply of gadgets and toys). He's not nearly as skilled a tactician or scientist, but that just means Diana and Barry get to do more stuff. 
> 
> I prefer Bruce when he's just focused entirely on Gotham, or at most using the Outsiders to do his dirty work beyond city limits.
> 
> It'll never happen, but I'd be quite happy to see it.


I'd agree for your listed reasons here.  It seems to me unlikely that he has time for anything outside Gotham City and he isn't exactly a team player.  BUT the Justice League is the team for the A-Listers and Batman is certainly that.

----------


## Ascended

> I'd agree for your listed reasons here.  It seems to me unlikely that he has time for anything outside Gotham City and he isn't exactly a team player.  BUT the Justice League is the team for the A-Listers and Batman is certainly that.


Exactly. We won't see Nightwing on the main League any time soon, and probably never. 

But I dunno why they can't drop him on a side team. Sure, Orlando needed Batman to pull in sales for JLA, but you'd think that once a book gets off the ground and can sustain itself, a writer could shift Batman out and put Nightwing in his place. Of course, DC would have to admit that the NTT reunions won't work and free Dick up from that team too.....

----------


## WonderNight

> I know it'll never happen, but I'd be perfectly fine with Nightwing replacing Batman in the League.
> 
> Dick's a better team player, a better leader, has as much experience dealing with superhuman threats, and is just as capable a fighter (though he does lack the endless supply of gadgets and toys). He's not nearly as skilled a tactician or scientist, but that just means Diana and Barry get to do more stuff. 
> 
> I prefer Bruce when he's just focused entirely on Gotham, or at most using the Outsiders to do his dirty work beyond city limits.
> 
> It'll never happen, but I'd be quite happy to see it.


but it could work! All you'd have to do is merge Titans,JL and JLA together. :Smile:  then have superman, batman and wonder woman be the leader of each one of the teams with a mixed fresh roster of the 3 team. with the trinity together in trinity. let the titans brand be for teen titans.

Than you'll have your JLU spilt between 3 books All big league know JV teams. one team lead by wonder woman/nightwing :Wink:  one by superman/black canary and one by batman/Martian manhunter.

----------


## Pohzee

You have some wacky DickShips

----------


## Frontier

> I know it'll never happen, but I'd be perfectly fine with Nightwing replacing Batman in the League.
> 
> Dick's a better team player, a better leader, has as much experience dealing with superhuman threats, and is just as capable a fighter (though he does lack the endless supply of gadgets and toys). He's not nearly as skilled a tactician or scientist, but that just means Diana and Barry get to do more stuff. 
> *
> I prefer Bruce when he's just focused entirely on Gotham,* or at most using the Outsiders to do his dirty work beyond city limits.
> 
> It'll never happen, but I'd be quite happy to see it.


I personally prefer a Bruce who's not as obsessed purely with Gotham. 

Crime doesn't begin and end in one city, so you can't really wage a war against crime if you limit yourself like that.

----------


## TomServofan

> I personally prefer a Bruce who's not as obsessed purely with Gotham. 
> 
> Crime doesn't begin and end in one city, so you can't really wage a war against crime if you limit yourself like that.


Most agree, he fights crime outside Gotham even with the Justice League and goes to other places.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I personally prefer a Bruce who's not as obsessed purely with Gotham. 
> 
> Crime doesn't begin and end in one city, so you can't really wage a war against crime if you limit yourself like that.


I agree with this, but I still think Dick fits with the league better than Batman does, who I could see being an outside consultant.

----------


## Ascended

> I personally prefer a Bruce who's not as obsessed purely with Gotham. 
> 
> Crime doesn't begin and end in one city, so you can't really wage a war against crime if you limit yourself like that.


Eh, agree to disagree. Or....I dunno, we're not even disagreeing, we just like a slightly different focus on our Batman. 

Im fine with Bruce dealing with stuff outside of Gotham. An alien invasion is going to end up inside Gotham's borders, so he'd rather tackle it before it arrives. But I do think Gotham should be his first priority, every time all the time. 

But then, I like a little more crazy in my Batman than a lot of people here, so I'd rather he be a little unbalanced in the first place.

----------


## oasis1313

> but it could work! All you'd have to do is merge Titans,JL and JLA together. then have superman, batman and wonder woman be the leader of each one of the teams with a mixed fresh roster of the 3 team. with the trinity together in trinity. let the titans brand be for teen titans.
> 
> Than you'll have your JLU spilt between 3 books All big league know JV teams. one team lead by wonder woman/nightwing one by superman/black canary and one by batman/Martian manhunter.


IMHO, DC puts too much emphasis on its "Trinity"--Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.  They should have more A-list characters and they would if they went Marvel's route of concentrating on different lines of books instead of those three characters.  They're sort of trying, with the upcoming New Universe stuff, but we all KNOW how this experiment will turn out.

----------


## Pohzee

Nah. I think DC's focus on the Trinity works better. The only Marvel character who comes close to their popularity is Spider-Man. Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman are cultural icons. Their logos are commonplace on apparel and merchandise. Marvel doesn't have that.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'd be perfectly happy with both Bruce and Dick on the same team if that team was an expanded Justice League. They have similar skillsets, sure, but they have entirely different personalities and ideals and all that. If the cast is rotating around, then not only can you intentionally avoid having them both in the same arc, even if you did for an arc or two, you could easily highlight their differences and teamwork, without making either of the two look inferior. For me, a team book with big epic stories/villains and great character interactions is all I could ask for, and a JLU-type book would give us exactly that. I just don't understand why DC doesn't want to give us that.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree with this, but I still think Dick fits with the league better than Batman does, who I could see being an outside consultant.


I think Dick definitely works better in a team setting then Bruce does, but I also think Bruce fits more naturally with the Big 7 then Dick would.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'd be perfectly happy with both Bruce and Dick on the same team if that team was an expanded Justice League. They have similar skillsets, sure, but they have entirely different personalities and ideals and all that. If the cast is rotating around, then not only can you intentionally avoid having them both in the same arc, even if you did for an arc or two, you could easily highlight their differences and teamwork, without making either of the two look inferior. For me, a team book with big epic stories/villains and great character interactions is all I could ask for, and a JLU-type book would give us exactly that. I just don't understand why DC doesn't want to give us that.


There is actually an easy way to do that.  Just say that Bruce Wayne is unable to leave cancerous Gotham City and sends Dick in his place--just put him in the suit and send him on.  Dick has frequently stood in for Bruce and since everyone expects a Batman to be in the Justice League, give them a Batman.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is actually an easy way to do that.  Just say that Bruce Wayne is unable to leave cancerous Gotham City and sends Dick in his place--just put him in the suit and send him on.  Dick has frequently stood in for Bruce and since everyone expects a Batman to be in the Justice League, give them a Batman.


Nope batman can be in 3 places at once he does it all the time

----------


## yohyoi

DC needs to give the Titans some space to shine. Making them under the Justice League hampers the team.

----------


## Hizashi

> There is actually an easy way to do that.  Just say that Bruce Wayne is unable to leave cancerous Gotham City and sends Dick in his place--just put him in the suit and send him on.  Dick has frequently stood in for Bruce and since everyone expects a Batman to be in the Justice League, give them a Batman.


That would be fun. If anyone on the League isn't expecting it, they'll be caught off guard by Dick's friendliness.

----------


## Ascended

> I think Dick definitely works better in a team setting then Bruce does, but I also think Bruce fits more naturally with the Big 7 then Dick would.


I imagine the dynamic would be a lot like it was when Wally was one the League roster. Despite being "equals" no one can quite forget that back in the day, Wally was the kid sidekick. 

So, unrelated topic but something crossed my mind today. A few pages back we were talking about Dick and jobs; the gym he's running now, the jobs he's had, the ones he (maybe) should have had, etc. 

Did anyone consider professional extreme athlete? Like a "Shawn White" or "Tony Hawk" type of career? You know, X-Games type stuff. I was thinking about it, and it feels like a solid fit. Dick's supposed to be one of the best athletes in the DCU, the competitive season would give him plenty of reasons to travel, he wouldn't have a 9-5 clock to punch, and he's perfect for some serious endorsements that would finance both Nightwing and Dick Grayson, firmly removing him from needing any of Bruce's money. Plus, it has a built in excuse for why Dick is always covered in bruises and scrapes. 

Sorry, just an idea that struck me I thought might be worth tossing out there.

----------


## wvchemteach

> I imagine the dynamic would be a lot like it was when Wally was one the League roster. Despite being "equals" no one can quite forget that back in the day, Wally was the kid sidekick. 
> 
> So, unrelated topic but something crossed my mind today. A few pages back we were talking about Dick and jobs; the gym he's running now, the jobs he's had, the ones he (maybe) should have had, etc. 
> 
> Did anyone consider professional extreme athlete? Like a "Shawn White" or "Tony Hawk" type of career? You know, X-Games type stuff. I was thinking about it, and it feels like a solid fit. Dick's supposed to be one of the best athletes in the DCU, the competitive season would give him plenty of reasons to travel, he wouldn't have a 9-5 clock to punch, and he's perfect for some serious endorsements that would finance both Nightwing and Dick Grayson, firmly removing him from needing any of Bruce's money. Plus, it has a built in excuse for why Dick is always covered in bruises and scrapes. 
> 
> Sorry, just an idea that struck me I thought might be worth tossing out there.


On the one hand I could see that as a good fit. The only problem is it would potentially be a high profile visible identity that could handcuff him at times as well.

----------


## jbmasta

> On the one hand I could see that as a good fit. The only problem is it would potentially be a high profile visible identity that could handcuff him at times as well.


On one hand you've got millionaire playboy Bruce Wayne who's also Batman, but the more deconstructive narrative that's proving popular among writers would show why a high profile globe trotting alter ego isn't necessarily all good. Observent people would spot that Nightwing shows up where Dick Grayson is competing, and the two don't appear together.

----------


## wvchemteach

> On one hand you've got millionaire playboy Bruce Wayne who's also Batman, but the more deconstructive narrative that's proving popular among writers would show why a high profile globe trotting alter ego isn't necessarily all good. Observent people would spot that Nightwing shows up where Dick Grayson is competing, and the two don't appear together.


That was my thoughts. He'd have to be wary about people putting the two together. Not to mention the similarity of both careers as far as the athleticism on display. While Bruce Wayne obviously has the resources to be Batman no one has seen him pulling moves that Batman is capable of.

----------


## Ascended

> That was my thoughts. He'd have to be wary about people putting the two together. Not to mention the similarity of both careers as far as the athleticism on display. While Bruce Wayne obviously has the resources to be Batman no one has seen him pulling moves that Batman is capable of.


I thought about that too. It's a complication....which can be a good thing. Secret identities thrive on this sort of stuff, and if Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne and Hal friggin Jordan can keep their identities under wraps, Dick can pull it off too. It'd cause him problems along the way, but that's half the fun.

As for the similarities in athleticism between the job and the mask.......you'd have to have Dick doing something that doesn't give him a chance to flip around and do all that acrobatic stuff he likes to do. So no halfpipes or long jumps. But that still leaves some options. 

Anyway, Im not married to the idea or anything, but thought it might be worth tossing out there.

----------


## oasis1313

Why not take a job as a Public Relations President or VP for Wayne Enterprises?  He'd make a nice personable spokesman and nobody would expect him to punch a time clock.

----------


## wvchemteach

> Why not take a job as a Public Relations President or VP for Wayne Enterprises?  He'd make a nice personable spokesman and nobody would expect him to punch a time clock.


That would work just fine if he's in Gotham, but part of what many of the fans want is Dick out from under Bruce's shadow and thumb. Whether you like Dick in Bludhaven or not, most fans do want him out of Gotham, where he's part of a a crowd.

----------


## oasis1313

> That would work just fine if he's in Gotham, but part of what many of the fans want is Dick out from under Bruce's shadow and thumb. Whether you like Dick in Bludhaven or not, most fans do want him out of Gotham, where he's part of a a crowd.


Who says that everyone working for Wayne Inc has to live in Gotham?  It's a global brand.  What do you think of trying a Batman Inc sort of idea where Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian all operate their Batliness out of cool cities around the world?

----------


## Godlike13

Have I mentioned professional poker player/gambler lately.

----------


## oasis1313

> Have I mentioned professional poker player/gambler lately.


I wouldn't mind sending Dick back to college and get the flunked-out imbecile stigma off of him.  Tired of him always being shown as a loser.

----------


## Ascended

> Who says that everyone working for Wayne Inc has to live in Gotham?  It's a global brand.  What do you think of trying a Batman Inc sort of idea where Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian all operate their Batliness out of cool cities around the world?


Im not against the idea of Dick working somewhere in Wayne Enterprises, but I'd rather see Dick hold his own career. He's often been defined by his desire to get out from under Bruce's shadow and establish himself as his own man. He's refused to take Wayne money to fund Nightwing, he's held down some really low paying jobs rather than dip into a trust fund, etc. 

Now, taking a position in the company is a different thing than a free hand out, true, but I'd still rather see Dick make his own way. But if the book went in this direction it wouldn't be the end of all things either.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1801/af/c6e200c311b1.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing #38 cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## Godlike13

Cool cover. I like how they are really leaning into Bludhaven being a gambling town.

----------


## oasis1313

> Im not against the idea of Dick working somewhere in Wayne Enterprises, but I'd rather see Dick hold his own career. He's often been defined by his desire to get out from under Bruce's shadow and establish himself as his own man. He's refused to take Wayne money to fund Nightwing, he's held down some really low paying jobs rather than dip into a trust fund, etc. 
> 
> Now, taking a position in the company is a different thing than a free hand out, true, but I'd still rather see Dick make his own way. But if the book went in this direction it wouldn't be the end of all things either.


Dick hold his own career?  He's a dullard college drop-out, got fired from being Robin, washed out from pretty much everything he tries--I don't know if he could hold a job as a busboy at this point.

----------


## WonderNight

> Cool cover. I like how they are really leaning into Bludhaven being a gambling town.


I know right :Embarrassment:  It really helps nightwing and bludhaven stand out from batman and others.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c15/1801/e2/e421d89be93b.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing #38 cover by Bernard Chang

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick hold his own career?  He's a dullard college drop-out, got fired from being Robin, washed out from pretty much everything he tries--I don't know if he could hold a job as a busboy at this point.



Thats a bit Harsh

----------


## SpiderWing20

> Dick hold his own career?  He's a dullard college drop-out, got fired from being Robin, washed out from pretty much everything he tries--I don't know if he could hold a job as a busboy at this point.


Wasnt he a busboy in Higgins Chicago run

----------


## Ascended

> Dick hold his own career?  He's a dullard college drop-out, got fired from being Robin, washed out from pretty much everything he tries--I don't know if he could hold a job as a busboy at this point.


I wouldn't call him a dullard by any means, the guy is pretty smart. He left college, but that doesn't mean anything. Intellect isn't measured in degrees.

He does struggle with jobs though. I think the guy has too much wanderlust in him to stay in any one place for long, which makes most jobs impossible for him.

Which is part of why being a professional athlete would fit him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Well，Bruce also dropped out of collegue and he is one of the smartest person of the whole DCU...It doesn't mean Dick is a dullard. The boy just knew what he wanted too well to tolerate wasting his time there. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Thats a bit Harsh





> Thats a bit Harsh


If I was someone who didn't have Dick Grayson in their heart for over half a century--if I was someone who had never heard of the character and just started reading--THAT is what I would think of him, according to the way DC has been handling him.  I'd think, "Why should I bother with this fikk-up?"




> Well，Bruce also dropped out of collegue and he is one of the smartest person of the whole DCU...It doesn't mean Dick is a dullard. The boy just knew what he wanted too well to tolerate wasting his time there.


The thing is, Bruce is WRITTEN as being smart.  His editors and writers WANT to make him shine--they don't want to project their personal failures onto him.  Besides, Bruce is richer than Jeff Bezos (which has always made me wonder why Thomas Wayne bothered with med school), so it doesn't matter as much as when another character can't even hold a job bussing tables.  I recall a nice moment in the wretched Titans book of the 60's (which was slightly less wretched than it is now) when the Titans are out on a canoe or whatever on a lake and they encounter some dude fishing in another boat.  Dick asked the man if he's had any luck catching bluegill trout here.  Nope is the answer.  As soon as the dude is out of earshot, Dick turns to Aqualad and says, "Garth, you know as well as I do that there aren't any bluegill trout in this region."  The current Dick would say, "Wow--I gotta call Tim and ask what kind of fish might be around here."  These are little things make for a cumulative effect, a slow grinding of the teeth.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If I was someone who didn't have Dick Grayson in their heart for over half a century--if I was someone who had never heard of the character and just started reading--THAT is what I would think of him, according to the way DC has been handling him.  I'd think, "Why should I bother with this fikk-up?"
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, Bruce is WRITTEN as being smart.  His editors and writers WANT to make him shine--they don't want to project their personal failures onto him.  Besides, Bruce is richer than Jeff Bezos (which has always made me wonder why Thomas Wayne bothered with med school), so it doesn't matter as much as when another character can't even hold a job bussing tables.  I recall a nice moment in the wretched Titans book of the 60's (which was slightly less wretched than it is now) when the Titans are out on a canoe or whatever on a lake and they encounter some dude fishing in another boat.  Dick asked the man if he's had any luck catching bluegill trout here.  Nope is the answer.  As soon as the dude is out of earshot, Dick turns to Aqualad and says, "Garth, you know as well as I do that there aren't any bluegill trout in this region."  The current Dick would say, "Wow--I gotta call Tim and ask what kind of fish might be around here."  These are little things make for a cumulative effect, a slow grinding of the teeth.


Being smart is not just being super geinus, like Bruce, Babs, Tim, Damian
I am glad he different, also college is not for everyone, he is no less for not completing it

----------


## oasis1313

> Being smart is not just being super geinus, like Bruce, Babs, Tim, Damian
> I am glad he different, also college is not for everyone, he is no less for not completing it


I'd agree if Dick didn't complete college because he was bored with it, didn't need to learn a marketable profession to support himself and a possible family in the future--but the FAILURE aspect of these things have been pounded into the readers' collective skull ever since Max Allan Collins crawled out of the sewer.  In the comics, he's continually beating himself up for various "failures".  That was one of the refreshing things about "Grayson"--he got to have some fun without going to a pity party.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> The thing is, Bruce is WRITTEN as being smart.  His editors and writers WANT to make him shine--they don't want to project their personal failures onto him.  Besides, Bruce is richer than Jeff Bezos (which has always made me wonder why Thomas Wayne bothered with med school), so it doesn't matter as much as when another character can't even hold a job bussing tables.  I recall a nice moment in the wretched Titans book of the 60's (which was slightly less wretched than it is now) when the Titans are out on a canoe or whatever on a lake and they encounter some dude fishing in another boat.  Dick asked the man if he's had any luck catching bluegill trout here.  Nope is the answer.  As soon as the dude is out of earshot, Dick turns to Aqualad and says, "Garth, you know as well as I do that there aren't any bluegill trout in this region."  The current Dick would say, "Wow--I gotta call Tim and ask what kind of fish might be around here."  These are little things make for a cumulative effect, a slow grinding of the teeth.


Wasn't Dick smart when he successfully tracked down James Gordon Jr. in Black Mirror? Or when he sent the cluemaster's code to the batfamily in order to figure out Agent 0's identity in Grayson? Wasn't it the same guy who dropped out of collegue and couldn't keep a long-term job? It has nothing to do with leaving college, being rich or something. It is just some of the writers wanted to show him being smart and some focused on his other qualities. 
I agree that Dick could've been in a better position and understand your frustration, but most of his career failures were due to writer rotation/DC's various reboots and he was not the only one who suffered from that. Besides, this is comic: most of the readers define the characters by their best stories. And I think Dick Grayson has had enough good stories in which he shone bright  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Wasn't Dick smart when he successfully tracked down James Gordon Jr. in Black Mirror? Or when he sent the cluemaster's code to the batfamily in order to figure out Agent 0's identity in Grayson? Wasn't it the same guy who dropped out of collegue and couldn't keep a long-term job? It has nothing to do with leaving college, being rich or something. It is just some of the writers wanted to show him being smart and some focused on his other qualities. 
> I agree that Dick could've been in a better position and understand your frustration, but most of his career failures were due to writer rotation/DC's various reboots and he was not the only one who suffered from that. Besides, this is comic: most of the readers define the characters by their best stories. And I think Dick Grayson has had enough good stories in which he shone bright



Notice that Dick wasn't wearing the Nightwing costume when he had those great stories.  When Dick wears the Batman suit, his iQ gains about 200 points.  In Grayson, he outsmarted all his enemies and fun doing it.  However, whenever he puts on the Nightwing suit, he becomes an imbecile in COMPARISON to whatever costume he was wearing last time.  Worse, storylines continue to emphasize what he perceives as his failures to the point that Dick is literally drowning in them.  Yes, I am VERY frustrated; I see so much potential and it is being actively repressed instead of being build upon.  Sixty-plus years of my favorite character being made to wallow in the same old vomit is heart-breaking.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Notice that Dick wasn't wearing the Nightwing costume when he had those great stories.  When Dick wears the Batman suit, his iQ gains about 200 points.  In Grayson, he outsmarted all his enemies and fun doing it.  However, whenever he puts on the Nightwing suit, he becomes an imbecile in COMPARISON to whatever costume he was wearing last time.  Worse, storylines continue to emphasize what he perceives as his failures to the point that Dick is literally drowning in them.  Yes, I am VERY frustrated; I see so much potential and it is being actively repressed instead of being build upon.  Sixty-plus years of my favorite character being made to wallow in the same old vomit is heart-breaking.


True. We all know Dick is a smart and competent hero but when it comes to Nightwing things always go south. I can't believe I am paying 5.98 dollars per month to see how my beloved hero got beaten again and again. In every arc he was an underdog who only turned the tables at the end of story so the book could go on. He was saved by Raptor, Damian,Shawn, even Blockbuster...in his OWN Book. It seems like DC still had no idea what made Grayson such a well-acclaimed book but knew Dick's popularity so when rebirth came they chose to play safe with Nightwing. I am not against the idea of Bludhaven, not every hero has his own city; but I do think DC should change the tone of this book.Dixon's era was finished and it would never come back. After that Dick had experienced great character growth: he wore the batman suit, had his own robin, and undercoverd as a James Bond-ish agent. People like dickbat and Agent 37. Of course they felt disappointed when the Nightwing book only focused on building the city and its villains and made Dick look like a freshman. Where is the light-hearted, confident Dick Grayson? Where are these friends and enemies he met during his global trotting?You can't simlpy cut that out of Nightwing. 
Dick has so much potential. The rebirth issue of Nightwing sold over 140k copies; Now the latest number is less than 30k. If DC was keen on Bludhaven because Nightwing sold better than Grayson, it is time to consider adjust the direction of the book. I sincerely hope the new team could help Dick out of current dilemma.

----------


## ayanestar

> True. We all know Dick is a smart and competent hero but when it comes to Nightwing things always go south. I can't believe I am paying 5.98 dollars per month to see how my beloved hero got beaten again and again. In every arc he was an underdog who only turned the tables at the end of story so the book could go on. He was saved by Raptor, Damian,Shawn, even Blockbuster...in his OWN Book. It seems like DC still had no idea what made Grayson such a well-acclaimed book but knew Dick's popularity so when rebirth came they chose to play safe with Nightwing. I am not against the idea of Bludhaven, not every hero has his own city; but I do think DC should change the tone of this book.Dixon's era was finished and it would never come back. After that Dick had experienced great character growth: he wore the batman suit, had his own robin, and undercoverd as a James Bond-ish agent. People like dickbat and Agent 37. Of course they felt disappointed when the Nightwing book only focused on building the city and its villains and made Dick look like a freshman. Where is the light-hearted, confident Dick Grayson? Where are these friends and enemies he met during his global trotting?You can't simlpy cut that out of Nightwing. 
> Dick has so much potential. The rebirth issue of Nightwing sold over 140k copies; Now the latest number is less than 30k. If DC was keen on Bludhaven because Nightwing sold better than Grayson, it is time to consider adjust the direction of the book. I sincerely hope the new team could help Dick out of current dilemma.


Honestly I'm still disappointed we never got King and Seeley to finish Grayson on their own, they obviously had more stories to tell. Anyway comic sales are down again and I think only 7 DC comics are selling above 30k but it happens all the time it's nothing new. I do wonder how DC plans to increase the sales because otherwise almost all books will fall under 20k sooner than or later. However Dick is still in a favourable postition I mean he can sell an ongoing series no matter what name is used but Nightwing is a well known superhero and an important part of the Batman Family so DC can't waste the name but like you have pointed out his most popular and well received stories are as Batman and Agent 37. Also the Vol 1. of Nightwing Rebirth sold very well, smth like 11k by now (based on reports from Diamond Comic Distributors). Seeley's run started very strong but I can't blame him for anything after that. It doesn't seem like Blüdhaven was his idea and I wonder what other stories we could have gotten from him if he wasn't forced to bring the city back. I mean he did more with the city than most wrters before him so I really hope the new team won't just erase everything he has build but I haven't read the new arc yet so I can't say anything about it.

Anyway it feels like everytime Dick moves on to smth bigger (Batman or Agent 37) he moves 5 steps back. Nightwing is still fun to read but it is rather frustrating sometimes. It is also annoying to see Dick acting like a child in Titans like seriously Dick has nothing to prove anymore, he is a capable and grown up hero. It's like the only story writers nowadays can tell about Batman and Dick involves Dick struggling to step out of Batman's shadow. I just wonder why Nighwting can't be written the same way as Grayson and Batman, he is still the same character. Anyway I look forward to see what the new team will bring to the table.

----------


## Hizashi

> True. We all know Dick is a smart and competent hero but when it comes to Nightwing things always go south. I can't believe I am paying 5.98 dollars per month to see how my beloved hero got beaten again and again. In every arc he was an underdog who only turned the tables at the end of story so the book could go on. He was saved by Raptor, Damian,Shawn, even Blockbuster...in his OWN Book. It seems like DC still had no idea what made Grayson such a well-acclaimed book but knew Dick's popularity so when rebirth came they chose to play safe with Nightwing. I am not against the idea of Bludhaven, not every hero has his own city; but I do think DC should change the tone of this book.Dixon's era was finished and it would never come back. After that Dick had experienced great character growth: he wore the batman suit, had his own robin, and undercoverd as a James Bond-ish agent. People like dickbat and Agent 37. Of course they felt disappointed when the Nightwing book only focused on building the city and its villains and made Dick look like a freshman. Where is the light-hearted, confident Dick Grayson? Where are these friends and enemies he met during his global trotting?You can't simlpy cut that out of Nightwing. 
> Dick has so much potential. The rebirth issue of Nightwing sold over 140k copies; Now the latest number is less than 30k. If DC was keen on Bludhaven because Nightwing sold better than Grayson, it is time to consider adjust the direction of the book. I sincerely hope the new team could help Dick out of current dilemma.


It's definitely past due for DC to step up their game with Nightwing. I've liked the art and story (so far) of the current arc, but I'm still hoping we get some globetrotting out of Nightwing again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Honestly I'm still disappointed we never got King and Seeley to finish Grayson on their own, they obviously had more stories to tell. Anyway comic sales are down again and I think only 7 DC comics are selling above 30k but it happens all the time it's nothing new. I do wonder how DC plans to increase the sales because otherwise almost all books will fall under 20k sooner than or later. However Dick is still in a favourable postition I mean he can sell an ongoing series no matter what name is used but Nightwing is a well known superhero and an important part of the Batman Family so DC can't waste the name but like you have pointed out his most popular and well received stories are as Batman and Agent 37. Also the Vol 1. of Nightwing Rebirth sold very well, smth like 11k by now (based on reports from Diamond Comic Distributors). Seeley's run started very strong but I can't blame him for anything after that. It doesn't seem like Blüdhaven was his idea and I wonder what other stories we could have gotten from him if he wasn't forced to bring the city back. I mean he did more with the city than most wrters before him so I really hope the new team won't just erase everything he has build but I haven't read the new arc yet so I can't say anything about it.
> 
> Anyway it feels like everytime Dick moves on to smth bigger (Batman or Agent 37) he moves 5 steps back. Nightwing is still fun to read but it is rather frustrating sometimes. It is also annoying to see Dick acting like a child in Titans like seriously Dick has nothing to prove anymore, he is a capable and grown up hero. It's like the only story writers nowadays can tell about Batman and Dick involves Dick struggling to step out of Batman's shadow. I just wonder why Nighwting can't be written the same way as Grayson and Batman, he is still the same character. Anyway I look forward to see what the new team will bring to the table.


He could never stay Agent 37, nightwing was always coming back

----------


## ayanestar

> He could never stay Agent 37, nightwing was always coming back


Never said otherwise but he could have stayed Agent 37 for longer. We got lucky to get Grayson anyway. Who knows when Dick will get such a good creative team again.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b28/1801/2c/cffdf3650fe2.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## CPSparkles

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b28/1801/2c/cffdf3650fe2.jpg[/IMG]


Is this from Young Justice? I really hope they learned from season 2 and have the OG's as the main focus

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is this from Young Justice? I really hope they learned from season 2 and have the OG's as the main focus


considering all of TIMs new friends i doubt it

----------


## CPSparkles

> considering all of TIMs new friends i doubt it


Ahh season 2 was just inferior. I know everyone is now demanding that more people be showcased but it's important to remember where the magic started. What won over viewers in the 1st place.
We started the journey with the 7. We are invested. It's unfair to lose them in the crowd.

----------


## oasis1313

> He could never stay Agent 37, nightwing was always coming back


Of course Nightwing was always going to come back.  But couldn't he have brought a few brain cells with him from the other role?  IMHO, one of the big problems is the return of the first-person POV--it allows too much time to make mischief in his skull.  Would DC encourage this kind of treatment for one of their "Holy Trinity"?  NO WAY !!!!!!  Would even the latest Green Lanterns, whoever they are these days, be subjected to such character assassination?  The hatred toward Dick coming from DC administration and trickling down into the creative ranks encourages writers to endlessly drag Dick Grayson through a never-ending cycle of failures and self-recriminations.   No other character but Dick Grayson could hold onto reasonable sales in spite if this treatment.  Yet, DC never asks itself why there are such utterly hardcore fans and how could they make even more of them?  If  such a successful character was named anything but Dick Grayson, it would have its own line of books by now.

----------


## ayanestar

> Of course Nightwing was always going to come back.  But couldn't he have brought a few brain cells with him from the other role?


quote of the day lol  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ahh season 2 was just inferior. I know everyone is now demanding that more people be showcased but it's important to remember where the magic started. What won over viewers in the 1st place.
> We started the journey with the 7. We are invested. It's unfair to lose them in the crowd.


I agree, but I guess they wanted to expand
I oped for Donna and got Cassie

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a05/1801/9f/65989667de9b.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeBEtoPFWUU/

----------


## Hizashi

> Ahh season 2 was just inferior. I know everyone is now demanding that more people be showcased but it's important to remember where the magic started. What won over viewers in the 1st place.
> We started the journey with the 7. We are invested. It's unfair to lose them in the crowd.


Yep, I began losing interest very quickly when there was so little Nightwing to enjoy (along with Wally, Artemis, etc.).

----------


## SpiderWing20

The problem with Nightwing is that it always feels like a demotion when he comes back to the mantle. It’s loke everything he acquires from the role is wiped from memory and he continues like he’s a scrub. I remember in the first issue of Seeley’s run Batman refereed to him as a “one man strike force” not needing any approval. I’d love to see that, Dick could have kept the globe trotting and be Nightwing, but nostalgiaists begged for bludhaven

----------


## Hizashi

> The problem with Nightwing is that it always feels like a demotion when he comes back to the mantle. It’s loke everything he acquires from the role is wiped from memory and he continues like he’s a scrub. I remember in the first issue of Seeley’s run Batman refereed to him as a “one man strike force” not needing any approval. I’d love to see that, Dick could have kept the globe trotting and be Nightwing, but nostalgiaists begged for bludhaven


Yeah, and for a character who is lauded as a symbol of the growth that can be seen in comics history, the fact that he's stagnating is frustrating to say the least. Why hasn't anyone written a story (with meta elements if you like) that addresses that?

----------


## Ascended

> Id love to see that, Dick could have kept the globe trotting and be Nightwing, but nostalgiaists begged for bludhaven


I've been clearly vocal about wanting to see Dick doing more globe trotting, but I can see the desire to have a home city to come back to as well. And Bludhaven is a decent setting with solid potential. Dixon did good things with the setting, the current run seems to be (I trade wait, so I haven't actually read it yet). 

I dont see why we can't have both. Dick can take down a drug ring in Bludhaven in one arc and then fly off to Shanghai for the next, then swing out to the Vega system after that (I ship Dick and Kori, sorry), go back to Bludhaven to catch his breath, then visit ancient Atlantis in the deep past. Why not? Dick, if written right, is more flexible than almost any other character around. You can throw him in virtually any situation and it fits perfectly.

----------


## Pohzee

All of this is painfully accurate, but I believe that I most strongly agree with whoever brought up the narration boxes. Unless they are done well (and they seldom are) I think they hinder more than help most stories. Your protagonist can't surprise you when you know their innermost thoughts. And they set up for some _cheesy_ monologuing.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c38/1801/c7/cd0b1f3585ee.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BeBwRgQBAEZ/

----------


## Rac7d*

> I've been clearly vocal about wanting to see Dick doing more globe trotting, but I can see the desire to have a home city to come back to as well. And Bludhaven is a decent setting with solid potential. Dixon did good things with the setting, the current run seems to be (I trade wait, so I haven't actually read it yet). 
> 
> I dont see why we can't have both. Dick can take down a drug ring in Bludhaven in one arc and then fly off to Shanghai for the next, then swing out to the Vega system after that (I ship Dick and Kori, sorry), go back to Bludhaven to catch his breath, then visit ancient Atlantis in the deep past. Why not? Dick, if written right, is more flexible than almost any other character around. You can throw him in virtually any situation and it fits perfectly.


Globe trotting is what he should be doing with the Titans, I dont see why they have to stay in NY

Bludhaven can be for more grounded mysteries

----------


## Ascended

> Globe trotting is what he should be doing with the Titans, I dont see why they have to stay in NY
> 
> Bludhaven can be for more grounded mysteries


You're right, that's what the Titans *should* be doing, but from what I hear, they're doing anything but. 

And Bludhaven can still be the place for Dick to have his gritty, grounded stories. But the character has more range than that. Why limit Nightwing to just one side of his character when he has more to offer? That's just bad business. 

You don't say "Okay, Superman does crazy high concept adventure with the Justice League books, so in his own titles lets just limit him to dealing with Intergang, Metallo, and the other Metropolis based bad guys and stories." You don't do that with Flash or the Lantern or anything. 

I am all for Bludhaven being Nightwing's permanent residence. I hated it when they Chemo-nuked the city back in Infinite Crisis (quite the spectacle, but a huge waste). I want that to be the place where Dick hangs his hat. I just want him doing stuff beyond those city limits too.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c35/1801/b2/7e5c99ea6408.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing and Red Hood by Tyler Kirkham

[IMG]https://b.***********/b03/1801/e9/30913e070551.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/loveamekomi/stat...108949504?s=17
Arkham Knight Nighwting

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Honestly I'm still disappointed we never got King and Seeley to finish Grayson on their own, they obviously had more stories to tell. Anyway comic sales are down again and I think only 7 DC comics are selling above 30k but it happens all the time it's nothing new. I do wonder how DC plans to increase the sales because otherwise almost all books will fall under 20k sooner than or later. However Dick is still in a favourable postition I mean he can sell an ongoing series no matter what name is used but Nightwing is a well known superhero and an important part of the Batman Family so DC can't waste the name but like you have pointed out his most popular and well received stories are as Batman and Agent 37. Also the Vol 1. of Nightwing Rebirth sold very well, smth like 11k by now (based on reports from Diamond Comic Distributors). Seeley's run started very strong but I can't blame him for anything after that. It doesn't seem like Blüdhaven was his idea and I wonder what other stories we could have gotten from him if he wasn't forced to bring the city back. I mean he did more with the city than most wrters before him so I really hope the new team won't just erase everything he has build but I haven't read the new arc yet so I can't say anything about it.
> 
> Anyway it feels like everytime Dick moves on to smth bigger (Batman or Agent 37) he moves 5 steps back. Nightwing is still fun to read but it is rather frustrating sometimes. It is also annoying to see Dick acting like a child in Titans like seriously Dick has nothing to prove anymore, he is a capable and grown up hero. It's like the only story writers nowadays can tell about Batman and Dick involves Dick struggling to step out of Batman's shadow. I just wonder why Nighwting can't be written the same way as Grayson and Batman, he is still the same character. Anyway I look forward to see what the new team will bring to the table.


the new team just gave us two issues so I will wait till this arc ends. Hopefully it will turn out to be a great detective story... But I still want DC to acknowledge and show the influnence of Dickbat and Agent 37 on Dick's characterization. He really should be more sophisticated and light-hearted than he is.

----------


## Ivy_b

> Ahh season 2 was just inferior. I know everyone is now demanding that more people be showcased but it's important to remember where the magic started. What won over viewers in the 1st place.
> We started the journey with the 7. We are invested. It's unfair to lose them in the crowd.


Agreed. Between the original mains mostly getting demoted and S2 being only serialized, I think the show really suffered. You didn't have stand alones to focus on characters who aren't connected to the main plot, so the only ones who got any focus were those that had to do with The Reach.

----------


## wvchemteach

> I've been clearly vocal about wanting to see Dick doing more globe trotting, but I can see the desire to have a home city to come back to as well. And Bludhaven is a decent setting with solid potential. Dixon did good things with the setting, the current run seems to be (I trade wait, so I haven't actually read it yet). 
> 
> I dont see why we can't have both. Dick can take down a drug ring in Bludhaven in one arc and then fly off to Shanghai for the next, then swing out to the Vega system after that (I ship Dick and Kori, sorry), go back to Bludhaven to catch his breath, then visit ancient Atlantis in the deep past. Why not? Dick, if written right, is more flexible than almost any other character around. You can throw him in virtually any situation and it fits perfectly.


I agree with this. I think that Dick worked so well in Grayson because he was in different locales, but he also had a home base at St. Hadrians. I think that the new Bludhaven has the potential to become a colorful character all on its own with the new neon light/casino style trying to covering up the decrepit, dirty whaling town.

Given Dick's connections to Spyral and the Titans as well as just his travels since the New 52 reboot he has connections to several cities and countries so I would love for a potential storyline where a case in Bludhaven can be solved on the locale, but then leads him to have to chase down the source in either Metropolis, New York, Chicago, London, Paris, Hong Kong, etc.

----------


## Rac7d*

Why Isnt Nightwing allowed to have his stun batons every? Is it too much power for him

----------


## Godlike13

If they want to they could probably do the stun baton thing with his sticks. We have seen it before. I just think its something the current creative teams on him just don't really care about.

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b28/1801/2c/cffdf3650fe2.jpg[/IMG]


Is that a feedbag on the left?  Lucky Charms cereal instead of dry oats?

----------


## Rac7d*

> If they want to they could probably do the stun baton thing with his sticks. We have seen it before. I just think its something the current creative teams on him just don't really care about.


I dont think i have ever seen him use them that way 2013- to present unless it was on a cover or for Arkham promotion

----------


## Godlike13

He used them in Higgins run.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He used them in Higgins run.


only in cover art

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> only in cover art


No, he definitely used them. Don't you remember the famous Booth buttshot?

----------


## Drako

Here it is.





https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...ing-11-680094/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...ing-11-680094/


oh this is right before foreverevil right, did he loose them when he was kidnapped?
I actualy like higgins run, he was just interrupted at every turn

Also this when his Arkham version of himself was also using them in the games

----------


## yohyoi

I wouldn't mind the stun batons. Nightwing is low in tech.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I feel like Nightwing should just be adaptive to the situation like Batman, i.e. regular batons for the gritty, fistfights in his own book and, like, Nth Metal, taser batons for global threats and stuff. 

That would require he actually starts taking on bigger threats in a book like Titans, and well... yeah...

----------


## oasis1313

> Here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...ing-11-680094/


They should have based the Kotobukiya Ikemen statue off this.

----------


## Pohzee

I used to like the idea of electric escirmas, but I've decided that they are to visually dominant. If nothing else, Fernandez excelled at creative fights that incorporated more than just hitting people with sticks. If Dick had electric sticks, all he would do is zap people. I'd prefer to focus on his fighting abilities over gear.

----------


## Godlike13

Honesty, why just electric sticks. There are endless modification they could do with his sticks. They could have them shoot fire or have him use them as blow gun. The possibilities are endless. They could get really fun and silly with his sticks if they wanted too. And id be ok with that. Its no different then Batman's gadgets. Except the sticks would act as Nightwing's applicator.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I used to like the idea of electric escirmas, but I've decided that they are to visually dominant. If nothing else, Fernandez excelled at creative fights that incorporated more than just hitting people with sticks. If Dick had electric sticks, all he would do is zap people. I'd prefer to focus on his fighting abilities over gear.


He woundlt use it on normal people, but I their are many time when he could use an edge
His last resort seem to be his suit giant taser anyway, but its a one shot

----------


## Badou

Dick did kind of get the raw end of the deal with the weapons the various Robins have. Jason has guns (and magic swords if you want to count those too), Tim has the bow staff, and Damian has swords. The sticks sort of don't look as good by comparison I think. They are too similar to Daredevil too, but also I think my problem with them is that to use them you basically have to get in close hand to hand range and I think Dick works better as a hand to hand fighter anyway. So the sticks sort of become redundant.

----------


## Godlike13

I like the sticks. DC is not lacking in strait hand to hand fighters. So the sticks add a different flavor to his fighting, and they are firmly part of Nightwing's imagery at this point. Plus sure Jason has guns and Damian a sword, but they don't really let Jason actually kill anyone anymore with them, and even with swords they're not really letting these guys stab people. And its not like there aren't a plethora of other characters that uses bo staffs, guns, and swords. The list of characters that those weapons is far larger the the list of characters that use escrima sticks.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick did kind of get the raw end of the deal with the weapons the various Robins have. Jason has guns (and magic swords if you want to count those too), Tim has the bow staff, and Damian has swords. The sticks sort of don't look as good by comparison I think. They are too similar to Daredevil too, but also I think my problem with them is that to use them you basically have to get in close hand to hand range and I think Dick works better as a hand to hand fighter anyway. So the sticks sort of become redundant.


No No No   his escrima sticks are his own  and their fine, I was just wondered why he never used their taser mode.  Jason not allowed kill people to often so guns pointless, A bo staff tends to be used by less skilled martial artist, and Damian only uses swords when the time calls, for it. He tends to use his shuriken as daggers

----------


## Godlike13

Im a fan of Damian's batarang claws, not gonna lie.

----------


## Badou

> I like the sticks. DC is not lacking in strait hand to hand fighters. So the sticks add a different flavor to his fighting, and they are firmly part of Nightwing's imagery at this point. Plus sure Jason has guns and Damian a sword, but they don't really let Jason actually kill anyone anymore with them, and even with swords they're not really letting these guys stab people. And its not like there aren't a plethora of other characters that uses bo staffs, guns, and swords. The list of characters that those weapons is far larger the the list of characters that use escrima sticks.





> No No No   his escrima sticks are his own  and their fine, I was just wondered why he never used their taser mode.  Jason not allowed kill people to often so guns pointless, A bo staff tends to be used by less skilled martial artist, and Damian only uses swords when the time calls, for it. He tends to use his shuriken as daggers


They just feel kind of useless to me. The problem also is that Dareveil is the one that is most known for them, and he is a character Nightwing feels so much like a knockoff of a lot of the time. So they don't really feel like Dick's "own" weapons. Also with the bo staff thing Robin/Tim is at least the most well known character in comics that uses it probably, and I don't think guns are pointless even if Jason isn't allowed to kill people at the moment. Dick used his gun very well in Grayson without killing anyone. Also visually they are a lot better than two short sticks I think. 

Although I'm not saying I want Dick to use a gun. Far from it. I'd prefer him to just be a hand to hand fighter and just give him some gauntlets or something to use.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick did kind of get the raw end of the deal with the weapons the various Robins have. Jason has guns (and magic swords if you want to count those too), Tim has the bow staff, and Damian has swords. The sticks sort of don't look as good by comparison I think. They are too similar to Daredevil too, but also I think my problem with them is that to use them you basically have to get in close hand to hand range and I think Dick works better as a hand to hand fighter anyway. So the sticks sort of become redundant.


To be honest I would be glad if Jason got rid of the guns, or they were just used more as a secondary like Batarangs.

The Guns are extremly ineffective in the comics, he is not really doing any trick schots like Green Arrow or Dead shot with them, and a gun fight looks in comics just not as good as hand to hand combat. Some writers also treat him like he was totally dependent on his guns and not a particulary good Martial Artist (just rember Tom Kings list), even if should be roughly equal to Dick in this regard.

And Damian is hardly using swords anymore.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They just feel kind of useless to me. The problem also is that Dareveil is the one that is most known for them, and he is a character Nightwing feels so much like a knockoff of a lot of the time. So they don't really feel like Dick's "own" weapons. Also with the bo staff thing Robin/Tim is at least the most well known character in comics that uses it probably, and I don't think guns are pointless even if Jason isn't allowed to kill people at the moment. Dick used his gun very well in Grayson without killing anyone. Also visually they are a lot better than two short sticks I think. 
> 
> Although I'm not saying I want Dick to use a gun. Far from it. I'd prefer him to just be a hand to hand fighter and just give him some gauntlets or something to use.


Daredevil is know for being Blind more then he is for holding Kali sticks,  He used his gun as a joke back then, and only kept it on him part of that uniform, he would never have a gun on him now.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #38 Bernard Chang



Nightwing #38 Var. Ed. Yasmine Putri

----------


## yohyoi

Also the last issue of Nightwing: The New Order is coming this Wednesday. I personally enjoyed it, and would recommend it to anyone looking for a new take on Nightwing.

----------


## Badou

> Daredevil is know for being Blind more then he is for holding Kali sticks,  He used his gun as a joke back then, and only kept it on him part of that uniform, he would never have a gun on him now.


He used the gun to defeat Paragon at the end of the first arc after the set up with him pretending to be a bad shot.

----------


## Frontier

I've seen some very cool applications of Dick with his escrima sticks. 

I definitely think they add to Dick more then they detract.

----------


## Aioros22

Escrima sticks are cool and with varying effective use depending on the skill behind. With these characters is like, they're masters using it. No scrub or gang leader will use them the same way because they wont move like Dick does and its equally true even with less rare items. Everybody spams guns but not everybody uses it as effetively as Jason does or a even more extreme example, like the Phantom does to the point where a classic scene of the character is shooting guns out of peoples hands without even looking at them. 

Now if the argument is because is not a unique weapon style associated with Nigthwing, weellll..thats far and few.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like the sticks. DC is not lacking in strait hand to hand fighters. So the sticks add a different flavor to his fighting, and they are firmly part of Nightwing's imagery at this point. Plus sure Jason has guns and Damian a sword, but they don't really let Jason actually kill anyone anymore with them, and even with swords they're not really letting these guys stab people. And its not like there aren't a plethora of other characters that uses bo staffs, guns, and swords. The list of characters that those weapons is far larger the the list of characters that use escrima sticks.


Could be worse.  Could be nunchuks.

----------


## Frontier

> Could be worse.  Could be nunchuks.


Michelangelo of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would have words with you  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## oasis1313

> Michelangelo of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would have words with you .


Dick Grayson has a far more awesome butt than Michaelangelo.

----------


## Godlike13

Michelangelo is my favorite Turtle.

----------


## oasis1313

> Michelangelo is my favorite Turtle.


Mine, too.  But those turtle shells make it hard to check out the backside.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, that’s not really an issue for me.

----------


## Dominick1216

Haven't read Nightwing in a while, but in either Detective Comics #965 or #966, Tim says that Dick became Robin less than or around a year after Bruce became Batman. So, has it been stated recently how old Dick is supposed to be right now in the comics? I remember last year Tim Seeley posting on twitter that Dick was 23, is that still the case or no?

----------


## Godlike13

21ish.
...

----------


## oasis1313

I think the ages go like this:

Alfred Pennyworth --  942
Bruce Wayne -- Eternally 29
Dick Grayson -- 75
Jason Todd --  24
Tim Dreck --  16
Damian Wayne -- 17
Duke Thomas --  Whatever, Who Cares
Barbara Gordon -- 23
Cass Cain --  12
Stephanie Cluemaster -- Whatever Tim's Age Is
Bat-Cow -- Count the Rings on the Nose
Joker --  Too Old for Harley
Harley --  Too Old for Joker

----------


## Badou

> Haven't read Nightwing in a while, but in either Detective Comics #965 or #966, Tim says that Dick became Robin less than or around a year after Bruce became Batman. So, has it been stated recently how old Dick is supposed to be right now in the comics? I remember last year Tim Seeley posting on twitter that Dick was 23, is that still the case or no?


We just got a flashback to Dick's early Robin days and he looked like he is still around 16 when he became Robin. Not sure how long ago that is supposed to be now.

----------


## Frontier

I think Dick's a perpetual 20-something at this point.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think Dick's a perpetual 20-something at this point.


hes 23 hes gotta be for the batfimly to make sense
for 4 robins

----------


## Godlike13

The Bat family doesn't make sense for 4 robins + Duke. No matter how old they make Dick's Robin. It never did, but at the same time its a waste of time to think about ages too hard. He's 20 something.

----------


## Frontier

I think you can fit every Robin reasonably in a 15-year timeline, but so far we don't exactly have that yet even though it's been teased.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, but that would take them sitting down, figuring it out, then making sure their writers stick to what they have come up with. Instead though they gave us this vague timeline and let different writers try to make it work for their guys all at the same time, with seemly no coordination between them. I think both Jason and Tim have had multiple origins at this point, and with Duke its a lets just throw things at the wall in a desperate attempt to make him work policy. Trying to nail down exact ages is pointless, and quit frankly DC shouldn't give them exact ages.

----------


## Aahz

With a 15 year timeline, which anyway necessary for Damian to be 13, Dick would have to allready in his late 20 at this point (something between 26 and 23).

The only way arround it would be for Dick to start as Robin either on a very young age, or few years later in Batman career, but that would in both cases compress not really leave enough tie for the other 3 Robins.

----------


## Rac7d*

> With a 15 year timeline, which anyway necessary for Damian to be 13, Dick would have to allready in his late 20 at this point (something between 26 and 23).
> 
> The only way arround it would be for Dick to start as Robin either on a very young age, or few years later in Batman career, but that would in both cases compress not really leave enough tie for the other 3 Robins.


15 dick is robin 17 titans 18 he becomes nightwing age 20 becomes Batman    jason is robin at 16 dies within a yeah comes back (weird Resurrection time//growth) 18  Tim is 17 forever even though he should be 21 but he is 17 when Damian enters

It really odesnt matter to much for Dick and Jason

but tim really cant age, he like beast boy trapped to be an adolecent forever

and having Damian around makes his frozen growth awkward and more apparent

----------


## Aahz

> 15 dick is robin 17 titans 18 he becomes nightwing age 20 becomes Batman    jason is robin at 16 dies within a yeah comes back (weird Resurrection time//growth) 18  Tim is 17 forever even though he should be 21 but he is 17 when Damian enters
> 
> It really odesnt matter to much for Dick and Jason


It depends if you are Ok with them starting as Robin at the age of 16 opposed to 12. I like stories with younger Robins and that we can't have them in contiuity anymore is imo a loss.

And in case of Jason it also resulted in a very strange "up aging" of the character, technically he should be way closer in age to Tims generation than to Dicks, but suddenly he is treated like he was Dicks age and suddenly a lot of sharacters that used to be older than him are suddenly younger. The age difference between Jason and the original and "new" Titans was almost the same we have now between Damian and them.




> but tim really cant age, he like beast boy trapped to be an adolecent forever
> 
> and having Damian around makes his frozen growth awkward and more apparent


I think Dc has anyway reached a point were they can't really age up characters anymore, if they don't want their A-Listers getting to old. I just don't see how Damian and Jon can get much older without ageing up the rest of the universe to much.

----------


## Ascended

> I think Dc has anyway reached a point were they can't really age up characters anymore, if they don't want their A-Listers getting to old. I just don't see how Damian and Jon can get much older without ageing up the rest of the universe to much.


I think age is something you have to ignore in DC, but there is a little wiggle room with the youngest generation to add a few extra years on.

If Damien goes from ten to thirteen, you should see some changes in him. If Bruce goes from thirty three to thirty six, that's basically an invisible change. If Dick goes from twenty to twenty three, that's also largely an invisible shift. If Tim goes from sixteen to nineteen, you should be able to see that chang.....but we already saw that happen over the course of the 90's to 2011. 

As for Dick....I figure he's in his late twenties. I dont need it to be any more precise than that, and actually think it'd be harmful if they did put a specific number on him.

I sort of break it down like this: Justice League generation: late 30's, maybe early 40's. Titans generation: late 20's. Young Justice generation: late teens. Super Sons generation: early teens. 

I dont think late 30's or early 40's is a problem, even for the non-powered heroes. Tom Brady is killing it in the NFL and he's 40. If he can play at his level at his age, then Batman and Ollie can do their thing at the same age.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It depends if you are Ok with them starting as Robin at the age of 16 opposed to 12. I like stories with younger Robins and that we can't have them in contiuity anymore is imo a loss.
> 
> And in case of Jason it also resulted in a very strange "up aging" of the character, technically he should be way closer in age to Tims generation than to Dicks, but suddenly he is treated like he was Dicks age and suddenly a lot of sharacters that used to be older than him are suddenly younger. The age difference between Jason and the original and "new" Titans was almost the same we have now between Damian and them.
> 
> I think Dc has anyway reached a point were they can't really age up characters anymore, if they don't want their A-Listers getting to old. I just don't see how Damian and Jon can get much older without ageing up the rest of the universe to much.


It doesn't depend on if your ok or not becasue that what happened Dick was orphaned at 15 its jsut enough time to give him a good history being robin, It also makes the death of Damian so impactful, and challenges to robin title

----------


## yohyoi

The Nu52 Bat family timeline never did make any sense. Damian growing older only makes it more confusing.

----------


## Aahz

> It doesn't depend on if your ok or not becasue that what happened Dick was orphaned at 15 its jsut enough time to give him a good history being robin, It also makes the death of Damian so impactful, and challenges to robin title


But a story with a 15 year old Dick (and he was iirc 16 in the new 52 when he became Robin) is differnt then something like Robin: Year One where he is much younger.
And the older age also takes imo a lot away from the impact of Jasons death, who was originally something like 13 or 14 when he died and and in the new 52 he was allready 17.
And Damians death didn't really had any longterm impact on any character.

And I find it anyway odd to have Damian start as Robin at such a young age when the others were all allready 16, if the others started as 12 the difference wouldn't be that big.

----------


## Rac7d*

> But a story with a 15 year old Dick (and he was iirc 16 in the new 52 when he became Robin) is differnt then something like Robin: Year One where he is much younger.
> And the older age also takes imo a lot away from the impact of Jasons death, who was originally something like 13 or 14 when he died and and in the new 52 he was allready 17.
> And Damians death didn't really had any longterm impact on any character.
> 
> And I find it anyway odd to have Damian start as Robin at such a young age when the others were all allready 16, if the others started as 12 the difference wouldn't be that big.


Its just what it is now
  Jason is kind of an enigma, they blur out his past because it not a good look to bring up the body count of a hero in their villainous day.
Also Jason was not 17 in the new 52 he's already 21, tim is 17 which is why tim doesn't like going to the bar with Jason.

Damian death had more impact on the robin role then Jason, since it actually pose the sensible question, about a child crime fighter. I don't expect a new robin for a long time because of it. Their defiantly won't be one as ready to be robin the way Damian was.   Its hard to make competent superhero when you can't factor time. Stephanie brown is pretty much a prodigy considering how fast she been taken everything up but she will always be rookie compared to everyone else

----------


## Aahz

> Also Jason was not 17 in the new 52 he's already 21, tim is 17 which is why tim doesn't like going to the bar with Jason.


According to Rebirth Jason was 17 when he died (pre flashpoint he was much younger).
Jasons current age is unknown, but since Dick is appearently still only 21, Jason is younger than that.
Tim is actually only 16 according to Rebirth.




> Damian death had more impact on the robin role then Jason, since it actually pose the sensible question, about a child crime fighter.


And Jasons didn't? 
And sorry you can completly erase Damians death and it would really change anything in the current comics, in Jasons case you can't.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Damian death had more impact on the robin role then Jason, since it actually pose the sensible question, about a child crime fighter. I don't expect a new robin for a long time because of it. Their defiantly won't be one as ready to be robin the way Damian was.   Its hard to make competent superhero when you can't factor time. Stephanie brown is pretty much a prodigy considering how fast she been taken everything up but she will always be rookie compared to everyone else


Sorry, but I found Jason's death to have far more of an impact on myself, Bruce and Robin than Damian's did. At the time Jason was killed it hadn't yet become a way of life for dead characters to be resurrected and it had a long standing impact on Bruce and Robin to the point that he didn't even want to have another partner when Tim came along asking to become Robin. It even effected Tim's training and his career as Robin. These days character deaths are a joke in my personal opinion and I just don't take them seriously at all. We already knew that whatever Morrison said to the contrary Damian would be back in short order and that fact really just ruins the emotional impact of his death for me. YMMV though. I've yet to see any long standing impact Damian's death had on anyone like Jason's did. It's almost like it never happened even.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And Jasons didn't? 
> And sorry you can completly erase Damians death and it would really change anything in the current comics, in Jasons case you can't.


Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. Jason's death was impactful and the ramifications of it echoed for years. Damian's was erased and forgotten in short order so it hasn't had the same kind of impact at all. Not even close.

----------


## OversizedLoad

nightwing42.jpg

NIGHTWING #42 

Written by Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing, art by Jorge Corona, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
"The Crimson Kabuki!" When Damian Wayne disappears during a solo mission to Tokyo, Nightwing must enter the seedy underworld to save the boy who was once his Robin. But Dick will have to ascend the Crimson Kabuki's tower of crime and survive a game of death against three of Japan's most powerful fighters. Can Nightwing defeat an entire building of elite fighters, or will he lose Damian forever?

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 4. 


NIGHTWING #43

Written by Michael Moreci, art by Minkyu Jung, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
"The Brave, The Obnoxious and The Inept"! All Dick Grayson wants is a night to himself. But when Robin and Arsenal come calling in need of his help, Dick has to throw on his Nightwing costume and get to work. Before he knows it, he's neck-deep in League of Assassin ninjas and trying to stop Arsenal's sometime-girlfriend from killing them all -- assuming Robin and Arsenal don't kill each other first!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 18.

----------


## ayanestar

Nightwing in Tokyo and Damian + Roy? Dick fighting with swords against ninjas? lmao I can't wait to read this I bet it's gonna be fun. I also love the description: "Arsenal's sometime-girlfriend".
...but did I miss something or is Nightwing getting new writers again?

----------


## Drako

> nightwing42.jpg
> 
> NIGHTWING #42 
> 
> Written by Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing, art by Jorge Corona, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> "The Crimson Kabuki!" When Damian Wayne disappears during a solo mission to Tokyo, Nightwing must enter the seedy underworld to save the boy who was once his Robin. But Dick will have to ascend the Crimson Kabuki's tower of crime and survive a game of death against three of Japan's most powerful fighters. Can Nightwing defeat an entire building of elite fighters, or will he lose Damian forever?
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 4. 
> 
> ...


This cover is so awesome!

----------


## Godlike13

Whats going on with the writers.

----------


## Claude

Notable, too, that Abnett's run on "Titans" could be coming to an end based on the final-sounding nature of those solicit plots. So next month's solicts could see Dick getting new writers on both titles.

----------


## Badou

I'd rather not have to read about Roy in Nightwing, but Minkyu Jung's art will make it tolerable.

It is a little odd that we are getting several new writers. I guess they are part of DC's talent development thing and are meant to give the normal creative team a break. Weird coincidence that both of the stand alone stories have Damian in them too.  

Also Jimenez's covers have been great. He's one of the best working at DC right now.

----------


## ayanestar

> I'd rather not have to read about Roy in Nightwing, but Minkyu Jung's art will make it tolerable.
> 
> It is a little odd that we are getting several new writers. I guess they are part of DC's talent development thing and are meant to give the normal creative team a break. Weird coincidence that both of the stand alone stories have Damian in them too.  
> 
> Also Jimenez's covers have been great. He's one of the best working at DC right now.


....as always, I disagree with you about Roy  :Stick Out Tongue:  However I agree about Minkyu Jung's art - it makes everything better. I wish he could take over for Titans.
Anyway I think you are right about the break. I think DC just wants to showcase new talents like they did with the team-up with Wally in Nightwing #21. Humphries will most likely take over again. Also I have the feeling we might get a new Robin series or something related to it because he is involved in several books. I'm not complaining. Who knows maybe we will even get Batman & Robin back.

----------


## Badou

> ....as always, I disagree with you about Roy  However I agree about Minkyu Jung's art - it makes everything better. I wish he could take over for Titans.
> Anyway I think you are right about the break. I think DC just wants to showcase new talents like they did with the team-up with Wally in Nightwing #21. Humphries will most likely take over again. Also I have the feeling we might get a new Robin series or something related to it because he is involved in several books. I'm not complaining. Who knows maybe we will even get Batman & Robin back.


Honestly, I'm indifferent if Humphries comes back. His run so far has been underwhelming and I hope that DC shakes up a lot of things again. Since so many of their books feel stagnant right now, but with Doomsday Clock only coming out every other month now I feel like any big changes won't happen until that story comes to a close. So we will have to wait a while.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> nightwing42.jpg
> 
> NIGHTWING #42 
> 
> Written by Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing, art by Jorge Corona, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> "The Crimson Kabuki!" When Damian Wayne disappears during a solo mission to Tokyo, Nightwing must enter the seedy underworld to save the boy who was once his Robin. But Dick will have to ascend the Crimson Kabuki's tower of crime and survive a game of death against three of Japan's most powerful fighters. Can Nightwing defeat an entire building of elite fighters, or will he lose Damian forever?
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 4. 
> 
> ...


Maybe April is the promotion month of Batman Ninja :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

A Dick, Damian, and Roy team-up should be fun, especially with Cheshire (?) in tow, but two fill-in writers seems kind of random...

Also, when I think "Kabuki," I can't help but think of those Kabuki Twins who worked for Penguin in _The Batman_ cartoon.

----------


## ayanestar

> Honestly, I'm indifferent if Humphries comes back. His run so far has been underwhelming and I hope that DC shakes up a lot of things again. Since so many of their books feel stagnant right now, but with Doomsday Clock only coming out every other month now I feel like any big changes won't happen until that story comes to a close. So we will have to wait a while.


Well I still have to read the new arc with the new creative team so I can't say much about it yet. It is however unexpected to get a new writer so soon or rather two new writers, it's kinda random. Anyway DC really has to do something. I mean the sales of most of their books are declining and so is the quality. I also don't understand why Doomsday Clock is bi-monthly now. I still have to read it but I didn't expect it to end in 2019. Rebirth started strong but I've noticed it's getting confusing for some readers. But I guess all we can do is wait and see.

----------


## red winter

Grayson was a better intelligence operative than superhero especially after the Rebirth since Nightwing is just a yes man for the Bat now. The pre-crisis Grayson stood up to Bats more when he was in the green elf booties

----------


## ayanestar

It's a random question but does anyone knows what Midnighter is up to nowadays? I really miss his interactions with Dick. I was hoping to see him again.




> Grayson was a better intelligence operative than superhero especially after the Rebirth since Nightwing is just a yes man for the Bat now. The pre-crisis Grayson stood up to Bats more when he was in the green elf booties


This is mainly a problem in Titans. Nightwing's first arc dealt with his relationship to Bruce just fine, which doesn't mean I'm not tired of the "Dick struggling to step out of Batman's shadow" stories. Dick has nothing to prove to Batman anymore but DC don't want him to move on, which is why he is stuck in Blüdhaven again.

----------


## Pohzee

Ew. What the hell?

----------


## oasis1313

> This cover is so awesome!


I like it a lot, too.  It looks more interesting than whatever Humphries is doing, and I like Dick trying out different weapons for a change.  DC needs to keep just a few words in mind for anything they write for Nightwing and all would be well:  "One-Man Strike Force."

BTW, why are 13 year-old children being sent on solo missions to Tokyo?  CPS would have fits.

----------


## yohyoi

What the hell is happening?! Why is everyone writing Nightwing? Why am I not included DC?!

----------


## Amadeus Arkham

Dang, Nightwing is getting packed.

----------


## Frontier

> It's a random question but does anyone knows what Midnighter is up to nowadays? I really miss his interactions with Dick. I was hoping to see him again.


I don't recall if he's been seen since the _Apollo and Midnighter_ mini, outside their _Love is Love_ anthology story.

----------


## yohyoi

If these inventory issues are just a wait for Bendis, I will riot. I was enjoying Humphries' latest issues. I want him to at least write two arcs.

----------


## Badou

Bendis isn't going to write Nightwing. He has his eyes set on bigger characters like Superman right now.

----------


## nightbird

> Attachment 61057
> 
> NIGHTWING #42 
> 
> Written by Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing, art by Jorge Corona, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> "The Crimson Kabuki!" When Damian Wayne disappears during a solo mission to Tokyo, Nightwing must enter the seedy underworld to save the boy who was once his Robin. But Dick will have to ascend the Crimson Kabuki's tower of crime and survive a game of death against three of Japan's most powerful fighters. Can Nightwing defeat an entire building of elite fighters, or will he lose Damian forever?
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 4. 
> 
> ...


Kelly and Lanzing? Yikes. Well, at least its just a one time deal this time.

----------


## Aioros22

Dick saw the thread and switched to blades.

----------


## Fergus

> According to Rebirth Jason was 17 when he died (pre flashpoint he was much younger).
> Jasons current age is unknown, but since Dick is appearently still only 21, Jason is younger than that.
> Tim is actually only 16 according to Rebirth.
> 
> And Jasons didn't? 
> And sorry you can completly erase Damians death and it would really change anything in the current comics,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well of course because that was years ago and you would need to undo and erase so many character so it has the time on it's side. The landscape has changed so much since Jason and a lot if that change had nothing to do with Jason but rather are more to do with Drake. 

Jason's had big impact on me because that was a 1st and I didn't think they would. Also it did lead to changes in the environment but Damian's was my 1st seeing Bruce lose it completely he was already dark before Jason.

----------


## Barbatos666

Why are we talking about Damian and Jason's death here? My only contribution to this topic is that its very good for Damian that his death is not as major as Jason's.

----------


## Fergus

Wonder how come we have a fill in writer just as a writer tarted?
Still very excited for this. The art is gorgeous. Nightwing looks amazing.
Damian, Arsenal and Cheshire I'm down for that. The fill in wrote the Wally team up earlier in the run and that was enjoyable I think. I can't quite remember that story right now but I seem to recall liking it.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Wonder how come we have a fill in writer just as a writer tarted?
> Still very excited for this. The art is gorgeous. Nightwing looks amazing.
> Damian, Arsenal and Cheshire I'm down for that. The fill in wrote the Wally team up earlier in the run and that was enjoyable I think. I can't quite remember that story right now but I seem to recall liking it.


A month long break after 7 consecutive issues isn't unusual.

----------


## Hizashi

Hmmm, I'd read an arc or two set in Japan.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hmmm, I'd read an arc or two set in Japan.


Is damian actualy japaneses, I know he isnt white, but their so vague about it

----------


## oasis1313

> Attachment 61057
> 
> NIGHTWING #42 
> 
> Written by Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing, art by Jorge Corona, cover by Jorge Jimenez, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> "The Crimson Kabuki!" When Damian Wayne disappears during a solo mission to Tokyo, Nightwing must enter the seedy underworld to save the boy who was once his Robin. But Dick will have to ascend the Crimson Kabuki's tower of crime and survive a game of death against three of Japan's most powerful fighters. Can Nightwing defeat an entire building of elite fighters, or will he lose Damian forever?
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on April 4. 
> 
> ...


Maybe this is Dick's idea of a disguise.  If he wears Armani suit pants, nobody will notice his backside.

----------


## dan12456

> Bendis isn't going to write Nightwing. He has his eyes set on bigger characters like Superman right now.


I don't necessarily disagree, but Bendis tends to write 4-5 series at a time. He could easily do both, even with double shipping.

----------


## oasis1313

Ugh, please--not Bendis.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Is damian actualy japaneses, I know he isnt white, but their so vague about it


Lol no, Talia is of Chinese descent (iirc). And she's Arabic, of course, as the daughter of Ra's, so that's all passed down to Damian.

----------


## oasis1313

> Lol no, Talia is of Chinese descent (iirc). And she's Arabic, of course, as the daughter of Ra's, so that's all passed down to Damian.


Damian isn't politically correct enough.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Nightwing & Damian by Ace Continuado
https://instagram.com/p/BeYWzvagl7H/

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing & Damian by Ace Continuado
> https://instagram.com/p/BeYWzvagl7H/


Hey, that looks great!!!!!  I'd give up my hard-earned for a Nightwing & Robin book.  Has anyone else noticed that while Dick is trying to make two whole people sweat in his ratty gym, the Editorially-Adored Tim Dreck is over in Detective talking world domination plans with Bruce, constantly using the pronoun "we" to refer to Bruce and himself?  I guess it takes a lot of largess to make sure Tim's red carpet is redder than Dukes's.  Tynion writes nothing but "love letters to Tim Dreck.  Too bad nobody at DC feels that way about Dick Grayson.

----------


## ayanestar

> Hey, that looks great!!!!!  I'd give up my hard-earned for a Nightwing & Robin book.  Has anyone else noticed that while Dick is trying to make two whole people sweat in his ratty gym, the Editorially-Adored Tim Dreck is over in Detective talking world domination plans with Bruce, constantly using the pronoun "we" to refer to Bruce and himself?  I guess it takes a lot of largess to make sure Tim's red carpet is redder than Dukes's.  Tynion writes nothing but "love letters to Tim Dreck.  Too bad nobody at DC feels that way about Dick Grayson.


Well it's not like anyone likes Tim right now anyway. Most of his fans hate the character nowadays lol it's really sad but I'm also not reading Detective Comics. I dropped it a long time ago but his costume looked ridiculous, he isn't Robin but he is dressing like one and here I'm complaining how Dick never gets to move on lmao I guess Tim has it worse.

----------


## Godlike13

Let me know when DC starts planning the Tim Drake movie.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Hey, that looks great!!!!!  I'd give up my hard-earned for a Nightwing & Robin book.  Has anyone else noticed that while Dick is trying to make two whole people sweat in his ratty gym, the Editorially-Adored Tim Dreck is over in Detective talking world domination plans with Bruce, constantly using the pronoun "we" to refer to Bruce and himself?  I guess it takes a lot of largess to make sure Tim's red carpet is redder than Dukes's.  Tynion writes nothing but "love letters to Tim Dreck.  Too bad nobody at DC feels that way about Dick Grayson.


you will start complaining 'he can never get out of Batman's shadow and be his own man' if they write something like that... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Well it's not like anyone likes Tim right now anyway. Most of his fans hate the character nowadays lol it's really sad but I'm also not reading Detective Comics. I dropped it a long time ago but his costume looked ridiculous, he isn't Robin but he is dressing like one and here I'm complaining how Dick never gets to move on lmao I guess Tim has it worse.


It doesn't matter how much I--or anyone else--hates Tim Dreck.  DC loves the character and it's giving Tim's biggest fanboy--James Tynion--a free hand to indulge in as much adoration as he pleases.  I just wish Dick could get a writer who cares about him.  Even Scott Lobdell works to make Jason look good to his readers.  Maybe I got spoiled by "Grayson"; I could barely read the last issue of Nightwing.  Becoming your own man doesn't mean you turn your back on your family and act the "angry young man" for 30 years.  Growing up is coming to terms with who you are, learning to live with that reality, and Dick's eternal "I'm a failure, I'm a failure" is grinding me down.  There's an old expression: "You put your own price tag on yourself", and Dick is depicted as putting a VERY low price tag on himself with no lasting growth.  Why should anyone care about a book where the leader character is such a LOSER ???

Oh, and here's the dictionary:

Definition of dreck
: trash, rubbish

Yes, I am jealous.  As for 

Let me know when DC starts planning the Tim Drake movie. 

I'll believe a Nightwing movie when I'm physically standing in line to buy a ticket.  After the success of the Wonder Woman movie, a Batgirl movie will be moved forward, especially with Whedon interested.  DC is desperate to push the Justice League and its members.  In all likelihood, there will be no crumbs left over for Nightwing.  There are a lot of ideas bouncing around in Hollywood, but most of them don't get any action (except for Harvey Weinstein).

----------


## Godlike13

> I'll believe a Nightwing movie when I'm physically standing in line to buy a ticket.  After the success of the Wonder Woman movie, a Batgirl movie will be moved forward, especially with Whedon interested.  DC is desperate to push the Justice League and its members.  In all likelihood, there will be no crumbs left over for Nightwing.  There are a lot of ideas bouncing around in Hollywood, but most of them don't get any action (except for Harvey Weinstein).


That’s not the point. Stop being over dramatic. Tynion can write as many love letter as he wants, but Tims with Tynion in Tec because DC has nothing else for the character. So much so that they put him back in his Robin tights. Unlike Dick who DC wants to ship bimonthly, and are signing directors because they are thinking about a Nightwing movie, and are producing TV shows with him at the forefront. 
Just because writers aren’t interested in pointless love letters with Dick doesn’t mean DC doesn’t care about him. Dick doesn’t need love letters. Good stories were readers can actually see him challenged and enlarge his world will do him far more good then fluffy love letters that just tell us how awesome he is. I don’t want them writing nothing but love letters to Dick Grayson. That’s how you make hollow characters. I want stories and world building that makes me as the fan write love letters to Dick Grayson. 
 That being said, this does not apply to the Titans. The creators on that book seem dead set on establishing the Titans as a team of pathetic, uncool, amateurs. Someone needs to step in there or something because holy shit.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That’s not the point. Stop being over dramatic. Tynion can write as many love letter as he wants, but Tims with Tynion in Tec because DC has nothing else for the character. So much so that they put him back in his Robin tights. Unlike Dick who DC wants to ship bimonthly, and are signing directors because they are thinking about a Nightwing movie, and are producing TV shows with him at the forefront. 
> Just because writers aren’t interested in pointless love letters with Dick doesn’t mean DC doesn’t care about him. Dick doesn’t need love letters. Good stories were readers can actually see him challenged and enlarge his world will do him far more good then fluffy love letters that just tell us how awesome he is. I don’t want them writing nothing but love letters to Dick Grayson. That’s how you make hollow characters. I want stories and world building that makes me as the fan write love letters to Dick Grayson. 
>  That being said, this does not apply to the Titans. The creators on that book seem dead set on establishing the Titans as a team of pathetic, uncool, amateurs. Someone needs to step in there or something because holy shit.


This. Dick needs some solid Nightwing stories more than anything.

----------


## RedBird

Apologies for not having something more substantial to add but, yeah, 100% agree with Godlike13 here.

----------


## Tony Stark

> That’s not the point. Stop being over dramatic. Tynion can write as many love letter as he wants, but Tims with Tynion in Tec because DC has nothing else for the character. So much so that they put him back in his Robin tights. Unlike Dick who DC wants to ship bimonthly, and are signing directors because they are thinking about a Nightwing movie, and are producing TV shows with him at the forefront. 
> Just because writers aren’t interested in pointless love letters with Dick doesn’t mean DC doesn’t care about him. Dick doesn’t need love letters. Good stories were readers can actually see him challenged and enlarge his world will do him far more good then fluffy love letters that just tell us how awesome he is. I don’t want them writing nothing but love letters to Dick Grayson. That’s how you make hollow characters. I want stories and world building that makes me as the fan write love letters to Dick Grayson. 
>  That being said, this does not apply to the Titans. The creators on that book seem dead set on establishing the Titans as a team of pathetic, uncool, amateurs. Someone needs to step in there or something because holy shit.


We ll stated.

----------


## yohyoi

The present Nightwing is doing a cool approach on Dick. He is never under Bat's shadow. The Titans is the only one which does that since the 90s. Dick has been Batman. He has nothing to prove. Making him into a Gary Sue, gets you characters like present Tim and New52 Jason. Boring caricatures which doesn't make sense.

----------


## Rac7d*

whats the next event that could tease Titans, since I am sure we wont get any movie news untill a trailer for this come

----------


## Badou

> That’s not the point. Stop being over dramatic. Tynion can write as many love letter as he wants, but Tims with Tynion in Tec because DC has nothing else for the character. So much so that they put him back in his Robin tights. Unlike Dick who DC wants to ship bimonthly, and are signing directors because they are thinking about a Nightwing movie, and are producing TV shows with him at the forefront. 
> Just because writers aren’t interested in pointless love letters with Dick doesn’t mean DC doesn’t care about him. Dick doesn’t need love letters. Good stories were readers can actually see him challenged and enlarge his world will do him far more good then fluffy love letters that just tell us how awesome he is. I don’t want them writing nothing but love letters to Dick Grayson. That’s how you make hollow characters. I want stories and world building that makes me as the fan write love letters to Dick Grayson. 
>  That being said, this does not apply to the Titans. The creators on that book seem dead set on establishing the Titans as a team of pathetic, uncool, amateurs. Someone needs to step in there or something because holy shit.


The Grayson series was a bit of a love letter and it was his best series is a long, long time. As long as the story is good I don't think it matters, but to me it is becoming a chore to read the same "Nightwing protecting a city and struggling his way through" stories over and over. I've really had my fill of them. I wouldn't mind if writers try to showcase his abilities more and try to give him better feats if I am reading standard Nightwing stories anyway. 

As for the Titans I think it will remain bad even after the TV show airs. I know you are putting a lot of your hopes into that show to turn things around but I think you will be disappointed. Adult Titans just don't work in comics.

----------


## Godlike13

The Grayson series was far more then a love letter. The Grayson series was a conceptual challenge and a vast expansion of Dick's world, where we got to actually see him do and experience cool new things. 

And at this point im just hoping that the show puts an end to the current Titans series. I can live with something not working as long as they at least tried. The only thing the current Titans series is trying to do is reinforce every bad stigma about the Titans. Im not sure ive ever seen a creative team just not get it like the Titan's creative team. It boggles my mind.

----------


## Badou

> And at this point im just hoping that the show puts an end to the current Titans series. I can live with something not working as long as they at least tried. The only thing the current Titans series is trying to do is reinforce every bad stigma about the Titans. Im not sure ive ever seen a creative team just not get it like the Titan's creative team. It boggles my mind.


A problem is that many love the current Titans book for some reason. Just look at all the reviews for it and how high they are. It is crazy. I think the book and team have been trash since Titans Hunt but many don't see that and think Abnett has done a great job. All that will do is reinforce bad stories like you are saying as well. So I think they are just digging themselves into an even bigger hole. 

But also the thing is the TV show isn't about the current Titans team. They are irrelevant to it and that means Dick is as well because he is stuck there. I mean just look at the big DC JL event spinning out of Metal. It has the JL, random villains and the Teen Titans taking center stage. Not the Titans. The Robin, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven and Cyborg group. So DC is probably more willing the shake up the Teen Titans, since it is a bigger property, than shank up Titans. That group will also be getting an animated movie soon. The Titans will never get a big push from DC because they don't offer anything different but Dick is forever stuck with them. Dick is only somewhat saved from this by having his own solo book that luckily takes focus over his team book usually.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah DC wants Dick on Titans and presumably Tim on YJ. Its probably why they bumped Damian to a JL team. Damian was free to move there as he's not tied to any era or team.

----------


## ayanestar

I seriously don't understand why DC even bothered to bring back the Titans. They are throwing them away again. I'm happy Damian gets promoted to a JL team even if it's only temporarily but at the same time it feels like Nightwing and his team got punched in the face. I wish Dick was still Grayson and got to lead his own spy organisation or something I don't care. I would even take the Outsiders. I'm tired of the Titans. I think I might agree with Badou now, maybe the concept is just not meant to work.




> A problem is that many love the current Titans book for some reason. Just look at all the reviews for it and how high they are. It is crazy. I think the book and team have been trash since Titans Hunt but many don't see that and think Abnett has done a great job. All that will do is reinforce bad stories like you are saying as well. So I think they are just digging themselves into an even bigger hole.


The majority of the so-called fans are happy as long as their favorites play happy family, which is why the Titans and Teen Titans are stuck in the same cycle. They are happy as long as the team is around and don't care about the quality of the writing. I mean I could be wrong but this is the impression I get everytime I talk to these "fans" on twitter or tumblr.

----------


## Godlike13

> A problem is that many love the current Titans book for some reason. Just look at all the reviews for it and how high they are. It is crazy. I think the book and team have been trash since Titans Hunt but many don't see that and think Abnett has done a great job. All that will do is reinforce bad stories like you are saying as well. So I think they are just digging themselves into an even bigger hole. 
> 
> But also the thing is the TV show isn't about the current Titans team. They are irrelevant to it and that means Dick is as well because he is stuck there. I mean just look at the big DC JL event spinning out of Metal. It has the JL, random villains and the Teen Titans taking center stage. Not the Titans. The Robin, Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven and Cyborg group. So DC is probably more willing the shake up the Teen Titans, since it is a bigger property, than shank up Titans. That group will also be getting an animated movie soon. The Titans will never get a big push from DC because they don't offer anything different but Dick is forever stuck with them. Dick is only somewhat saved from this by having his own solo book that luckily takes focus over his team book usually.


How long is the current Titans team not going to coincide with the upcoming show though. DC is spending a lot money to make this TV show, i can't believe that they aren't going to eventually want to really start pushing the team they are spending this money on, and make it more recognizable when the TV show starts coming out.

----------


## ayanestar

> How long is the current Titans team not gonna coincide with the upcoming show though. DC is spending a lot money to make this TV show, i can't believe that they aren't going to eventually want to really start pushing the team and make it more recognizable when the TV show starts coming out.


Did DC ever try to do the same with The Flash or Arrow because I don't remember. Anyway it's not like movies or TV shows inclease comic sales so why are we even discussion this. We haven't even seen a trailer for the TV show yet so we don't know how much money they are actually spend on it. It will most likely turn into a soap opera like all the other DC shows on CW. I'm pretty sure the majority of the fans will end up fighting each other over the main couple of the show and care less about anything else. I'm pretty sure I don't need the same mess in the comics.

----------


## Godlike13

Well they did bring Barry back, and we have seen multiple Flash events, so they have been pushing the Flash for a while now. I don't really read the Green Arrow but i believe they also did some things. And then of course there's Black Lighting, which i really don't think its a coincidence that he now has a comic book. Oh and Suicide Squad also saw quite push when the movie came around. We have seen DC and Marvel time and time again do things and push characters because of what they were doing in other media.

----------


## Badou

> How long is the current Titans team not going to coincide with the upcoming show though. DC is spending a lot money to make this TV show, i can't believe that they aren't going to eventually want to really start pushing the team they are spending this money on, and make it more recognizable when the TV show starts coming out.


If they were going to do that then they would have made Dick a cop again to line up with the show, but they don't seem to be doing that. I mean a problem is that Dick isn't Robin now and Robin and the Teen Titans characters are the ones that will be in the show. In that show Dick is Robin and not Nightwing for now. The same characters that will be in the TTGO movie. So in the comics the characters that seem to be getting a push with Metal, the JL event, and having their book shaken up are the Robin, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy ect. characters and not the Titans team Dick is currently on.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, i just saw that announcement. I give up. Thats a rough one. A representative from every team but the Titans. You got pretty much every one from NTT and even Deathstroke, lol. Ya, i don't know what to say.

----------


## oasis1313

> If they were going to do that then they would have made Dick a cop again to line up with the show, but they don't seem to be doing that. I mean a problem is that Dick isn't Robin now and Robin and the Teen Titans characters are the ones that will be in the show. In that show Dick is Robin and not Nightwing for now. The same characters that will be in the TTGO movie. So in the comics the characters that seem to be getting a push with Metal, the JL event, and having their book shaken up are the Robin, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy ect. characters and not the Titans team Dick is currently on.


Not on regular TV?  Just digital streaming?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah, I have to agree with you guys. I'm glad they tried and brought these characters back, but the current creative team just could not give us the Titans story we wanted. It says a lot when the team is treated like children and forced to disband, while the actual team of "children" gets bumped up. I'm happy to see the Kory and the others up there but... it's honestly pretty sad. 

Of course, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't holding onto some glimmer of hope, so: this new JL, following No Justice, is meant to be about extending their reach beyond our universe. So... that would naturally leave the Titans in the position to step up and become the primary defenders of Earth. It could be a really interesting place to take the team, I think. With Doomsday Clock delayed enough that it may only end sometime in 2019, it's likely that the JSA won't be back anytime soon. And Orlando's JLA was sort of absorbed by Snyder's new JL. So it would really just be the Titans and maybe Tim's new YJ if that comes back earlier than the JSA....

----------


## oasis1313

> The majority of the so-called fans are happy as long as their favorites play happy family, which is why the Titans and Teen Titans are stuck in the same cycle. They are happy as long as the team is around and don't care about the quality of the writing. I mean I could be wrong but this is the impression I get everytime I talk to these "fans" on twitter or tumblr.


I just don't get this.  I'm probably the oldest person on this forum and I thought 60's Teen Titans SUCKED big-time,  Even I have NO leanings of nostalgia to go back and wallow in that playpen.

----------


## yohyoi

Hahaha... DC forgot the Titans but they remembered the frickin' Teen Titans. Dick and Wally are still not respected even after all this time. Thanks for the Rebirth blueballs, DC. You know what I needed, more Harley and Damian. Great job DC.

----------


## Barbatos666

Its not about respect imo, DC thinks the Titans are doing spectacularly between the comic and the upcoming show. They have no incentive to move them to JL and ruin what they feel is a success. Blame the fans of Titans.

----------


## yohyoi

I think it's better not to talk about the Titans at all. DC doesn't. The teen version are being promoted to Leaguers, while the adult ones are given a time out because they are not perfect. 

Why do you have to make mistakes Titans? It's not like the Justice League ever made a mistake in their life.

----------


## JasonTodd428

@Barbatos666- I'd blame DC for the fans (over)reaction to the current Titans book honestly. After all it was the higher ups that decided to reboot and thought it was a good idea to scrap Titans history in the process so fans became starved for some version of that history. That's likely why fans are buying up the current book even as mediocre as it is.

----------


## Barbatos666

> @Barbatos666- I'd blame DC for the fans (over)reaction to the current Titans book honestly. After all it was the higher ups that decided to reboot and thought it was a good idea to scrap Titans history in the process so fans became starved for some version of that history. That's likely why fans are buying up the current book even as mediocre as it is.


Oh yeah, I was just saying that Titans fans are a very satisfied group as a whole. The Damian team in contrast is a bit controversial and has fan bases fighting so it gives DC more incentive to move the characters elsewhere. So in a way fans of Starfire, Raven and Beast Boy should thank Damian because had they been part of Titans they too would have stayed there.

----------


## yohyoi

> @Barbatos666- I'd blame DC for the fans (over)reaction to the current Titans book honestly. After all it was the higher ups that decided to reboot and thought it was a good idea to scrap Titans history in the process so fans became starved for some version of that history. That's likely why fans are buying up the current book even as mediocre as it is.


Well, if you are a fan of Wally or Donna, there is no other book to buy. You also want to tell DC you support these characters. So you buy the book, or else DC will kill or villainize your favorite again and again.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh yeah, I was just saying that Titans fans are a very satisfied group as a whole. The Damian team in contrast is a bit controversial and has fan bases fighting so it gives DC more incentive to move the characters elsewhere. So in a way fans of Starfire, Raven and Beast Boy should thank Damian because had they been part of Titans they too would have stayed there.


Fan bases fight regardless so I'm not sure moving the characters elsewhere has much to do with that. Its far more likely that the bottom line has more to do with it. Most of DCs team books are weak in the quality department and none of them are all that critically acclaimed either. I rather suspect DC is looking for a way to improve both perhaps while also trying to revitalize the line with new directions instead of the same old status quo. I'm just speculating of course.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Fan bases fight regardless so I'm not sure moving the characters elsewhere has much to do with that. Its far more likely that the bottom line has more to do with it. Most of DCs team books are weak in the quality department and none of them are all that critically acclaimed either. I rather suspect DC is looking for a way to improve both perhaps while also trying to revitalize the line with new directions instead of the same old status quo. I'm just speculating of course.


I'm mostly in agreement, I just think Damian's team moving is because of Damian himself largely because he has no fixed generation or era like Dick. Sometimes being new and not tied to something can trump history and legacy. This is one of those cases.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well, if you are a fan of Wally or Donna, there is no other book to buy. You also want to tell DC you support these characters. So you buy the book, or else DC will kill or villainize your favorite again and again.


I don't really understand that mentality to be honest with you. I don't support mediocre books period even if its the only book a favorite character is in. Aside of Nightwing none of the other characters in Titans appear anywhere else regularly and I love all of those character but I just can't rationalize spending $3.99 an issue for a book that's as bland and uninteresting as Titans is. There are far to many other books out there I much rather spend that money on.

----------


## yohyoi

> I don't really understand that mentality to be honest with you. I don't support mediocre books period even if its the only book a favorite character is in. Aside of Nightwing none of the other characters in Titans appear anywhere else regularly and I love all of those character but I just can't rationalize spending $3.99 an issue for a book that's as bland and uninteresting as Titans is. There are far to many other books out there I much rather spend that money on.


Good for you. But some like me are Wally fans who are tired of him being forgotten and treated as a prop by DC. Rebirth was supposed to be his story. I bought hoping this would be true. But alas DC is just a liar.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm mostly in agreement, I just think Damian's team moving is because of Damian himself largely because he has no fixed generation or era like Dick. Sometimes being new and not tied to something can trump history and legacy. This is one of those cases.


I do wonder if this is maybe a step toward Damian getting his own group not tied down to the legacy of the previous Robins or Titans groups.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Good for you. But some like me are Wally fans who are tired of him being forgotten and treated as a prop by DC. Rebirth was supposed to be his story. I bought hoping this would be true. But alas DC is just a liar.


I bought the book hoping it would not end up being just like every other Titan book before it was in addition to it and Wally supposedly figuring prominently in the overall Rebirth story. I ended up disappointed thrice over myself so I get that. I just feel that supporting a mediocre book with a character I like doesn't do that character any good either and that it sends the wrong message to DC. Instead of it saying "I want more books with this character" I sometimes feel like its really saying "I support ANY book with this character no matter how bad". That's just my opinion and I didn't mean to come off like a jerk or something. Sorry about that.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans isn't doing anything different that says it needs to stay unchanged while JL, JLA, TT need to be relaunched. The joke of story Abnett started in TH is over even. There's no reason that the Titans are omitted from this event and eventual relaunch, while pretty much ever other team DC is publishing has a representative in this event and will probably see changes spinning out. This is very telling on how DC actually sees the Titans team and its member, and its not good. Dick needs to gtfo asap. The team is going nowhere fast. Its embarrassing how irrelevant they are, and soon as those new team books start coming out the Titans are only going to be further buried and left behind.

----------


## yohyoi

> The Titans isn't doing anything different that says it needs to stay unchanged while JL, JLA, TT need to be relaunched. The joke of story Abnett started in TH is over even. There's no reason that the Titans are omitted from this event and eventual relaunch, while pretty much ever other team they DC is publishing has a representative. This is very telling on how DC actually sees the Titans team and its member, and its not good. Dick needs to gtfo asap. The team is going nowhere fast. Its embarrassing how irrelevant they are, and soon as those new team books start coming out the Titans are only going to be further buried and left behind.


I would rather him leave too. A Spyral book would be 100x better than Titans. At the very least Agent 37 fans would have something.

----------


## nightbird

> I seriously don't understand why DC even bothered to bring back the Titans. They are throwing them away again. I'm happy Damian gets promoted to a JL team even if it's only temporarily but at the same time it feels like Nightwing and his team got punched in the face. I wish Dick was still Grayson and got to lead his own spy organisation or something I don't care. I would even take the Outsiders. I'm tired of the Titans. I think I might agree with Badou now, maybe the concept is just not meant to work.
> 
> 
> The majority of the so-called fans are happy as long as their favorites play happy family, which is why the Titans and Teen Titans are stuck in the same cycle. They are happy as long as the team is around and don't care about the quality of the writing. I mean I could be wrong but this is the impression I get everytime I talk to these "fans" on twitter or tumblr.


Some of those fans actually think/believe that Dick in Titans is better written, than in his own solo book.

----------


## Godlike13

Really, Mr. "Have I disappointed you"? Titans is some of the worst Nightwing i have ever read, and thats saying something. Its that bad. I swear to god Abnett has set out to purposely reinforce every bad stigma that he can.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Not only is the current Titans book mediocre, but the lineup is just so, so bland. I never really bought the idea that the Fab Five are the heart o the Titans. As a group, they've never really contributed much to the franchise's success. I love Dick and (under certain circumstances, which are not present currently) Wally and Donna, but Roy and Garth have never done much for me. And adding some blasts from the past like Lilith, Mal and Bumblebee isn't helping. Bland and at times awful writing combined with this lineup of characters seems like a very deadly combination. This book needs a shakeup ASAP, but they're not doing it with this JL relaunch. Which indicates that they really don't care about these characters aside from Nightwing, and even he isn't being treated super well overall, even if he's doing relatively much better than Wally, Donna, Roy and Garth. 




> Some of those fans actually think/believe that Dick in Titans is better written, than in his own solo book.


Do they mean the current run on his solo, or since the beginning of Rebirth? If it's the latter, I can't understand that at all. And I can't imagine Humphries is doing much worse than Abnett either.

----------


## Aahz

> Just because writers arent interested in pointless love letters with Dick doesnt mean DC doesnt care about him. Dick doesnt need love letters. Good stories were readers can actually see him challenged and enlarge his world will do him far more good then fluffy love letters that just tell us how awesome he is. I dont want them writing nothing but love letters to Dick Grayson. Thats how you make hollow characters.


IMO "Grayson" actually sometimes over did with teeling us how awesome Dick is, there were iirc a couple of times were Dick just succeeded because he is such a good person (or something similar), and the last Grayson Annual was also all about how awesome he is.

For a good story characters sometimes need to struggle and even occasionally to fail.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> IMO "Grayson" actually sometimes over did with teeling us how awesome Dick is, there were iirc a couple of times were Dick just succeeded because he is such a good person (or something similar), and the last Grayson Annual was also all about how awesome he is.
> 
> For a good story characters sometimes need to struggle and even occasionally to fail.


Dick did struggle and sometimes fail in _Grayson_, though. Off the top of my head, #'s 2, 3 and 11 had him not coming out on top, and Midnighter was able to defeat and capture him in #6. 

DC characters always succeed at the end of the day, even if they go through some challenges along the way. _Grayson_ wasn't that unusual in the regard.

----------


## Godlike13

The Gun Goes Off was one of the best issues of the series IMO. And then of course there was Tiger, Dick’s partner in Grayson who would repeatedly call him an idiot and tell us how awful he was as a spy.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

I miss the tone of Grayson. Funny and bright but could be serious and gritty when it is necessary.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick did struggle and sometimes fail in _Grayson_, though. Off the top of my head, #'s 2, 3 and 11 had him not coming out on top, and Midnighter was able to defeat and capture him in #6. 
> 
> DC characters always succeed at the end of the day, even if they go through some challenges along the way. _Grayson_ wasn't that unusual in the regard.


The last part was more a general statement.

Dick failed a few times, but you also at some occasions situations were he really just succeeded because he is such a awesome person (taht was for example iirc the way he defeated Dr. Netz in the end) which is imo a really lame ending for a story.

----------


## ayanestar

> Some of those fans actually think/believe that Dick in Titans is better written, than in his own solo book.


I'm pretty sure these are the same fans, who hated Grayson and still believe it was the worst thing that ever happened to Dick. You know there is a problem in the fandom when you have fans defending a mediocre book like Titans and praise it for its writing but feel personally insulted by Nightwing's solo book just because it's written by Seeley.




> Really, Mr. "Have I disappointed you"? Titans is some of the worst Nightwing i have ever read, and thats saying something. Its that bad. I swear to god Abnett has set out to purposely reinforce every bad stigma that he can.





> Do they mean the current run on his solo, or since the beginning of Rebirth? If it's the latter, I can't understand that at all. And I can't imagine Humphries is doing much worse than Abnett either.


Pretty sure it's the beginning of Rebirth or to be more specific Seeley's work. There is a part of the fandom (let's call it the tumblr fandom), who hate him since Grayson.




> And then of course there was Tiger, Dick’s partner in Grayson who would repeatedly call him an idiot and tell us how awful he was as a spy.


I miss Tiger lol he was the perfect partner for Dick, their interactions were so funny. 
Anyway Grayson had so much potential and stories to tell. I also miss Hypnos, I'm sure there was still some cool stuff left to do with it. Agent 37 wasn't perfect but honestly he was more capable, confident and fun compared to Nightwing. He was the person Dick should be at this point but it feels like Dick lost a part of himself when he returned to Nightwing even though Volume 1 of Nightwing is still one of my favorites.

----------


## yohyoi

> IMO "Grayson" actually sometimes over did with teeling us how awesome Dick is, there were iirc a couple of times were Dick just succeeded because he is such a good person (or something similar), and the last Grayson Annual was also all about how awesome he is.
> 
> For a good story characters sometimes need to struggle and even occasionally to fail.


It was not overdone as much as if it happens to Batman or Superman. Dick overcame challenges and proved many people wrong throughout his life. The few moments were he is given the respect he deserved should be loved and remembered. He should be up there along with the big players.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The last part was more a general statement.
> 
> Dick failed a few times, but you also at some occasions situations were he really just succeeded because he is such a awesome person (taht was for example iirc the way he defeated Dr. Netz in the end) which is imo a really lame ending for a story.


I think we can partially blame that on the rushed ending to get to Rebirth. It would probably have been more nuanced if it was by the actual creative team and they told it in the time frame they wanted.

As for him winning because he was an awesome person...well, that's how all the major iconic superheroes at DC win their victories. Reinforcing how awesome he is, while still challenging him along the way, is something the character needs. The alternative hasn't worked out for him all that much. it doesn't really work for bigger superheroes like Superman and Wonder Woman, so it's gonna be even more detrimental to the guy who has to struggle to not be seen as "Batman-lite." 




> I'm pretty sure these are the same fans, who hated Grayson and still believe it was the worst thing that ever happened to Dick. You know there is a problem in the fandom when you have fans defending a mediocre book like Titans and praise it for its writing but feel personally insulted by Nightwing's solo book just because it's written by Seeley.
> 
> Pretty sure it's the beginning of Rebirth or to be more specific Seeley's work. There is a part of the fandom (let's call it the tumblr fandom), who hate him since Grayson.


I've seen some of those tumblr posts, and it blows my mind. Nightwing as a solo property has never been interesting to me, and I thought Seeley and King were the best thing to happen to him since the NTT days (barring Morrison, which was always going to be temporary). Seeley continued making some pretty good lemonade out of the lemons handled to him by Rebirth. I can only imagine how much better his run would have been if he wasn't shackled to Bludhaven. 

Is it just because he wasn't Nightwing, or was it due to the series playing up his status as a Mr. Fanservice? Because the latter has been happening since the 80s with Perez. And I find it bizarre that they have an issue with it considering a sizeable chunk of Nightwing's fandom is drawn to him because they think he's hot. Some of it may also be pairing him up with Helena or Shawn or basically anyone who isn't Barbara. Who is my OTP with him, but c'mon.

----------


## ayanestar

> I've seen some of those tumblr posts, and it blows my mind. Nightwing as a solo property has never been interesting to me, and I thought Seeley and King were the best thing to happen to him since the NTT days (barring Morrison, which was always going to be temporary). Seeley continued making some pretty good lemonade out of the lemons handled to him by Rebirth. I can only imagine how much better his run would have been if he wasn't shackled to Bludhaven.


The only reason why they hated Grayson was because he wasn't Nightwing and in his Nightwing costuime with the blue finger stripes + he was isolated from the Batman Family but in my opinion it was the main reason why Grayson worked so well. It usually never ends well if Dick spends too much time around Batman because eventually he gets treated like Robin. 




> Is it just because he wasn't Nightwing, or was it due to the series playing up his status as a Mr. Fanservice? Because the latter has been happening since the 80s with Perez. And I find it bizarre that they have an issue with it considering a sizeable chunk of Nightwing's fandom is drawn to him because they think he's hot. Some of it may also be pairing him up with Helena or Shawn or basically anyone who isn't Barbara. Who is my OTP with him, but c'mon.


Many of the "fans" tried hard to make it believable that they hated Grayson because of the fanservice and because Dick was sexualized but the same "fans" also reblog almost naked fanarts of Dick and some rather disgusting art of Dick and Jason or even Dick and Bruce, which makes their whole argument look ridiculous if you ask me. *spoilers:*
They treat Dick a sex toy in their fanfictions and fanarts but suddenly it's problematic because King and Seeley had some fun with the fanservice in Grayson, which is usually the point of the spy genre.
*end of spoilers* I put the last part in spoilers, I think my choice of words might not be appropriate for the younger users here lol

Also you are probably right about the OTP argument, some fans can get really ugly. I remember how much hate Seeley got because of Shawn, it was really silly. I bet he was happy to get away from Nightwing, honestly I wouldn't blame him but I doubt the Green Lantern fandom is any better.

----------


## yohyoi

Nightwing #39 by Phil Jimenez



Nightwing #39 Var. Ed. by Yasmine Putri

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The only reason why they hated Grayson was because he wasn't Nightwing and in his Nightwing costuime with the *blue finger stripes* + he was isolated from the Batman Family but in my opinion it was the main reason why Grayson worked so well. It usually never ends well if Dick spends too much time around Batman because eventually he gets treated like Robin.


I will never understand the obsession with the finger stripes either.

I get that being brought back into the Bat-office saved Nightwing after the Titans property ran out of gas, and allowed the identity to remain sustainable and produce a few ongoing series that have been way more successful than other characters. But creatively speaking, we run the risk of him just blending into the larger Bat-Family with nothing noteworthy going on. Especially when he's stuck in Discount Gotham/Bludhaven. _Grayson_ was a breath of fresh air: it was a title where he could encounter some of Morrison's old concepts from his Batman run that weren't being utilized, interact with the Wildstorm characters, and even cross paths with Lex Luthor of all people and it felt natural. A Nightwing series could have been similar had it not felt the need to cater to the nostalgia of the Dixon days. 

Being with the Titans right now isn't helping solve the "treated like Robin" stuff either, unfortunately. The Teen Titans stood up to the League in the first Trigon story. He and Bruce hashed this crap out like adults while he was still Robin, why the hell are they still doing this?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Nightwing #39 Var. Ed. by Yasmine Putri


There is something very wrong with the lower half of Dicks body in this picture, which is unfortunate because the top half looks amazing.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c07/1801/d9/b0c41cecf8cb.jpg[/IMG]

Batgirl and Nightwing by Sean Gordon Murphy

----------


## nightbird

> Really, Mr. "Have I disappointed you"? Titans is some of the worst Nightwing i have ever read, and thats saying something. Its that bad. I swear to god Abnett has set out to purposely reinforce every bad stigma that he can.


Dick’s tumblr fandom is... peculiar.

— — —
small hint/update from Chris McKay
[IMG]https://d.***********/d38/1801/94/4515e6cd30a5.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Rakiduam

> Dicks tumblr fandom is... peculiar.
> 
>   
> small hint/update from Chris McKay
> [IMG]https://d.***********/d38/1801/94/4515e6cd30a5.jpg[/IMG]


Big update: They still have a director and continue working on script!

----------


## Badou

Only update I can think of is that they will officially announce the movie maybe. It has been absent from their planned movie slate and maybe they will add it to that now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Only update I can think of is that they will officially announce the movie maybe. It has been absent from their planned movie slate and maybe they will add it to that now.


Their waiting to build up the
When the titan Web show launches the Yj trailer appears, and they finally can announce a gotham movie this summer 
they will announce it all

----------


## oasis1313

> Some of those fans actually think/believe that Dick in Titans is better written, than in his own solo book.


Maybe they're just looking at the fanservice drawings.  Dick just seems to appear in a panel or two here and there in an utterly directionless book.  The basic problem is Dan Abnett; now we KNOW who wrote all the great stuff in the Abnett/Lanning team and it wasn't Abnett.  He seems to be coasting, to put it bluntly.   I don't think the characters themselves are the problem; they've worked before and there's no reason they can't do it again.  My suggestions:

(1)  What is the reason for the group to exist?  When this line-up was used back in the 60's, they were latchkey kid sidekicks stuck without a babysitter while the grown-ups were out saving the world.  It's reasonable that a group of amiable teens would enjoy hanging out.  Why are they hanging out now?  I don't know.  Especially since they lost all their memories of each other.

(2)  What is the role of each character in the book?  Formerly, Dick Grayson was known as the best leader in the DC Universe--highly intelligent, trusted, liked, and respected by all.  I don't know what he's doing now except eating pizza.  Wally can't get past these endless health problems.  Donna was the muscle, and "Wonder Woman's Little Sister" was simple enough to take the character through many, many years--all these "origins" are interminable.   I approve of Garth being able to stay out of the water more than a few minutes, and he'd work well as another brawn character, but he's just some romantic fool here who looks like Dick Grayson with slightly longer hair.  Roy was the Bad Boy, the cool guy, the 'tude.  

(3)  The storylines have rinky threats--they were rinky in the 60's and they're even rinkier now.  Whatever they're doing in any given issue is no more interesting than driving by a fender-bender.  If it was even something like getting together to do things for charity like putting on a petting zoo with Bat-Cow and Bat-Turkey, it would at least have some purpose.

Those are the nuts-n-bolts.  I hope that the 80's team will be reunited when the "television" show comes out.  When the Wolfman/Perez book was first launched, it took people by surprise because everyone expected the 60's barfbag back--the W/P book proved the Titans concept CAN be a hit--given the right creators.  Maybe DC needs to look outside the Old Boy Network and find some wild and crazy new blood; the comic cons are crawling with up and comers.

By the way, YohYol, I really LOVE your idea of Dick leaving the Titans for a Spyral book--or even just adding a Spyral book.  Maybe Dick decides to go moonlighting--why not?  "He doesn't have time."  Sure he does--he's a four-color comic book character.  Then everyone gets Dick Their Way.  I LOVED the Hypnos stuff--and Dick should have KEPT it as a pseudo-power.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick’s tumblr fandom is... peculiar.
> 
> — — —
> small hint/update from Chris McKay
> [IMG]https://d.***********/d38/1801/94/4515e6cd30a5.jpg[/IMG]


Something about an announcement on Valentine's Day just feels right...

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick’s tumblr fandom is... peculiar.
> 
> — — —
> small hint/update from Chris McKay
> [IMG]https://d.***********/d38/1801/94/4515e6cd30a5.jpg[/IMG]


Cool. I trust McKay with the movie. Still waiting for the Young Justice and Titans trailer. Not this Titans trailer though.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EOW_0luKq2Q

----------


## yohyoi

> Maybe they're just looking at the fanservice drawings.  Dick just seems to appear in a panel or two here and there in an utterly directionless book.  The basic problem is Dan Abnett; now we KNOW who wrote all the great stuff in the Abnett/Lanning team and it wasn't Abnett.  He seems to be coasting, to put it bluntly.   I don't think the characters themselves are the problem; they've worked before and there's no reason they can't do it again.  My suggestions:
> 
> (1)  What is the reason for the group to exist?  When this line-up was used back in the 60's, they were latchkey kid sidekicks stuck without a babysitter while the grown-ups were out saving the world.  It's reasonable that a group of amiable teens would enjoy hanging out.  Why are they hanging out now?  I don't know.  Especially since they lost all their memories of each other.
> 
> (2)  What is the role of each character in the book?  Formerly, Dick Grayson was known as the best leader in the DC Universe--highly intelligent, trusted, liked, and respected by all.  I don't know what he's doing now except eating pizza.  Wally can't get past these endless health problems.  Donna was the muscle, and "Wonder Woman's Little Sister" was simple enough to take the character through many, many years--all these "origins" are interminable.   I approve of Garth being able to stay out of the water more than a few minutes, and he'd work well as another brawn character, but he's just some romantic fool here who looks like Dick Grayson with slightly longer hair.  Roy was the Bad Boy, the cool guy, the 'tude.  
> 
> (3)  The storylines have rinky threats--they were rinky in the 60's and they're even rinkier now.  Whatever they're doing in any given issue is no more interesting than driving by a fender-bender.  If it was even something like getting together to do things for charity like putting on a petting zoo with Bat-Cow and Bat-Turkey, it would at least have some purpose.
> 
> Those are the nuts-n-bolts.  I hope that the 80's team will be reunited when the "television" show comes out.  When the Wolfman/Perez book was first launched, it took people by surprise because everyone expected the 60's barfbag back--the W/P book proved the Titans concept CAN be a hit--given the right creators.  Maybe DC needs to look outside the Old Boy Network and find some wild and crazy new blood; the comic cons are crawling with up and comers.
> ...


Thanks. Love your ideas too.

----------


## nightbird

> Maybe they're just looking at the fanservice drawings.  Dick just seems to appear in a panel or two here and there in an utterly directionless book.  The basic problem is Dan Abnett; now we KNOW who wrote all the great stuff in the Abnett/Lanning team and it wasn't Abnett.  He seems to be coasting, to put it bluntly.   I don't think the characters themselves are the problem; they've worked before and there's no reason they can't do it again.  My suggestions:
> 
> (1)  What is the reason for the group to exist?  When this line-up was used back in the 60's, they were latchkey kid sidekicks stuck without a babysitter while the grown-ups were out saving the world.  It's reasonable that a group of amiable teens would enjoy hanging out.  Why are they hanging out now?  I don't know.  Especially since they lost all their memories of each other.
> 
> (2)  What is the role of each character in the book?  Formerly, Dick Grayson was known as the best leader in the DC Universe--highly intelligent, trusted, liked, and respected by all.  I don't know what he's doing now except eating pizza.  Wally can't get past these endless health problems.  Donna was the muscle, and "Wonder Woman's Little Sister" was simple enough to take the character through many, many years--all these "origins" are interminable.   I approve of Garth being able to stay out of the water more than a few minutes, and he'd work well as another brawn character, but he's just some romantic fool here who looks like Dick Grayson with slightly longer hair.  Roy was the Bad Boy, the cool guy, the 'tude.  
> 
> (3)  The storylines have rinky threats--they were rinky in the 60's and they're even rinkier now.  Whatever they're doing in any given issue is no more interesting than driving by a fender-bender.  If it was even something like getting together to do things for charity like putting on a petting zoo with Bat-Cow and Bat-Turkey, it would at least have some purpose.
> 
> Those are the nuts-n-bolts.  I hope that the 80's team will be reunited when the "television" show comes out.  When the Wolfman/Perez book was first launched, it took people by surprise because everyone expected the 60's barfbag back--the W/P book proved the Titans concept CAN be a hit--given the right creators.  Maybe DC needs to look outside the Old Boy Network and find some wild and crazy new blood; the comic cons are crawling with up and comers.
> ...


Yeah, I agree, I don’t believe characters are the problem. When writers/editors refuse to evolve Titans beyond “old stories and problems”, it’s hard to blame characters for being not charismatic, popular or different enough.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah, I agree, I don’t believe characters are the problem. When writers/editors refuse to evolve Titans beyond “old stories and problems”, it’s hard to blame characters for being not charismatic, popular or different enough.


When all we can get--nearly a quarter-century later--is Ding Dong Daddy, it's bad.  You can't base a good rehash upon something that was rotten even to begin with.  If I was in a position to hire new writers for Dick, I'd tell them:  Let your imaginations go wild.  Take this beloved character on adventures that will keep his fans haunting the comics shops.  Look at why this character is so uniquely LOVED by an utterly devout fan base, and see if you can create more fans like that, willing to buy anything with their guy in it.  Treat him like the star he is.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, I agree, I dont believe characters are the problem. When writers/editors refuse to evolve Titans beyond old stories and problems, its hard to blame characters for being not charismatic, popular or different enough.


In my opinion that's been the problem with ALL the Titans reunion type books. The writers have come to rely to heavily on the nostalgia factor that the old stories and problems evoke in fans. THAT is exactly what fans are reacting to with Abnett's book right now, which is why it sells like it does despite the poor characterization and bland storytelling. The thing is I personally need a bit more from a story than a nostalgic trip down memory lane. I've already read those stories. I want to see new ones that have more nuance  and direction to them than the stuff Abnett has been writing. I need to see stories that are pushing these characters and developing them and the team into something more than just friends hanging out having pizza. I need to see villains that are actual believable threats to the team. Perhaps when all this JL event is over we'll finally get someone who will actually take this book and make something out of it.

----------


## Frontier

Maybe they can bring Devin Grayson back to the _Titans_  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe they can bring Devin Grayson back to the _Titans_ .


.....  why

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> .....  why


She did pretty good stuff. I know Nightwing fans instantly jump to all that Tarantula and Blackbuster nonsense, but that's not the only thing she's written...

Also, Scott Snyder just mentioned that the Titans are involved in No Justice, but of course they're nowhere to be seen in the promo artwork. So I'm just gonna go ahead and predict that Kory, Raven, and Gar are joining a revamped Titans team with Dick that spins out of the event like Snyder's implying.

----------


## Ascended

Eh, Devin Grayson did a few solid things with her Titans run but I remember it mostly being the same kind of "we're a team because childhood friendship! Smiles! Hugs! Melodrama! Let's fight old villains from the glory days over and over!" I mean, at least she included new members like Argent and Damage (a personal favorite of mine) but it didn't blow me away at all.

I loved it at certain parts, but I think it really fell into the same nostalgia-infested trap other reunion titles have fallen into since. There's just no real reason for these people to still be working together. I mean, I still talk to a couple friends from high school, but I dont take them to work with me! We hang out on weekends.

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe they can bring Devin Grayson back to the _Titans_ .


Where's my nausea pills?

----------


## Claude

> She did pretty good stuff. I know Nightwing fans instantly jump to all that Tarantula and Blackbuster nonsense, but that's not the only thing she's written...
> 
> Also, Scott Snyder just mentioned that the Titans are involved in No Justice, but of course they're nowhere to be seen in the promo artwork. So I'm just gonna go ahead and predict that Kory, Raven, and Gar are joining a revamped Titans team with Dick that spins out of the event like Snyder's implying.


Seems likely - and pretty much confirms a new creative team. Fortunately!

----------


## yohyoi

> Seems likely - and pretty much confirms a new creative team. Fortunately!


I don't even know who I want to write the Titans. First, DC needs to give them a specific purpose of being there and the future of the DCU.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't even know who I want to write the Titans. First, DC needs to give them a specific purpose of being there and the future of the DCU.


I don't think anyone would be complaining about the team's purpose among all the other Superheroes around if the writing, characterization, dynamics, and plots were much stronger then they are now.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Eh, Devin Grayson did a few solid things with her Titans run but I remember it mostly being the same kind of "we're a team because childhood friendship! Smiles! Hugs! Melodrama! Let's fight old villains from the glory days over and over!" I mean, at least she included new members like Argent and Damage (a personal favorite of mine) but it didn't blow me away at all.
> 
> I loved it at certain parts, but I think it really fell into the same nostalgia-infested trap other reunion titles have fallen into since. There's just no real reason for these people to still be working together. I mean, I still talk to a couple friends from high school, but I dont take them to work with me! We hang out on weekends.


I read the Technis Imperitive at one point and thought it was ok. But yeah it was filled to the brim with that lovey dovey stuff. Some of it was well written but I can't imagine reading a whole run of it. 

I've seen some claim it's better than the NTT run but I don't think I would agree. A casual glance at the covers alone just makes it seen like standard fare from that period. And nothing enduring came from it (they fought some dude named Goth apparently, who looks...awful). 

Its a shame we never got a full NTT crew reunion that wasn't written by Judd Winick. The same problems would still probably exist, just to a lesser degree. Its a more marketable team and still has Dick and Wally.

----------


## oasis1313

> I read the Technis Imperitive at one point and thought it was ok. But yeah it was filled to the brim with that lovey dovey stuff. Some of it was well written but I can't imagine reading a whole run of it. 
> 
> I've seen some claim it's better than the NTT run but I don't think I would agree.


Same here.  Whatever they're smoking, I want some of it.

----------


## Marilee

> I read the Technis Imperitive at one point and thought it was ok. But yeah it was filled to the brim with that lovey dovey stuff. Some of it was well written but I can't imagine reading a whole run of it. 
> 
> I've seen some claim it's better than the NTT run but I don't think I would agree. A casual glance at the covers alone just makes it seen like standard fare from that period. And nothing enduring came from it (they fought some dude named Goth apparently, who looks...awful). 
> 
> Its a shame we never got a full NTT crew reunion that wasn't written by Judd Winick. The same problems would still probably exist, just to a lesser degree. Its a more marketable team and still has Dick and Wally.


Oh, do not get me going on Devin Grayson's writing (and for the record, I met her briefly at the 1996 San Diego Comic Con...  She's a very nice person...  But her writing...  <shudder>).  I was really enjoying the Technis Imperative storyline, until she had Dick chose the team he did to go up and deal with Victor.  There is *no* way that Dick would take Roy and Garth to deal with Vic over Raven, Kory and Gar (Gar ended up going by stowing away with the group - and he's the one that saved the day).  The Fab Five should never have never been the ones to deal with Vic over the NTT.  Killed the story then and there for me.

That, and a bunch of little things which showed me she and Phil Jimenez needed to do some much valued research (Kory could never fly in space unaided before that story and such) really made what seemed to be a really epic story into one that felt way to OOC for me.

So, while I liked her as a person, I would never want to see Ms. Grayson write for DC comics ever again.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Oh, do not get me going on Devin Grayson's writing (and for the record, I met her briefly at the 1996 San Diego Comic Con...  She's a very nice person...  But her writing...  <shudder>).  I was really enjoying the Technis Imperative storyline, until she had Dick chose the team he did to go up and deal with Victor.  There is *no* way that Dick would take Roy and Garth to deal with Vic over Raven, Kory and *Gar (Gar ended up going by stowing away with the group - and he's the one that saved the day)*.  The Fab Five should never have never been the ones to deal with Vic over the NTT.  Killed the story then and there for me.
> 
> That, and a bunch of little things which showed me she and Phil Jimenez needed to do some much valued research (Kory could never fly in space unaided before that story and such) really made what seemed to be a really epic story into one that felt way to OOC for me.
> 
> So, while I liked her as a person, I would never want to see Ms. Grayson write for DC comics ever again.


Oh yikes, I forgot about that. Wally and Donna totally should have been there, but Roy and Garth barely interacted with Vic in the stories being told when the property was at it's peak. And of the others, he was always very close to Raven. No reason she can't have been there. 

The Fab 5 as a group don't do anything for me even though I'm a fan of 3/5 of the characters. There's just something about that specific combination that bores me to tears. Same with the O5 in X-Men (where I love Scott, Jean and Hank, and am so-so on the other two). I think basing the franchise around them at the forefront is dodgy, as beyond the original Silver Age stories the group as a unit hasn't contributed anything of value.

----------


## Frontier

> Oh yikes, I forgot about that. Wally and Donna totally should have been there, but Roy and Garth barely interacted with Vic in the stories being told when the property was at it's peak. And of the others, he was always very close to Raven. No reason she can't have been there. 
> 
> The Fab 5 as a group don't do anything for me even though I'm a fan of 3/5 of the characters. There's just something about that specific combination that bores me to tears. Same with the O5 in X-Men (where I love Scott, Jean and Hank, and am so-so on the other two). I think basing the franchise around them at the forefront is dodgy, as beyond the original Silver Age stories the group as a unit hasn't contributed anything of value.


I think even with the 05 X-Men that's another roster that's dependent a lot on the writing then it is the roster in my opinion.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think even with the 05 X-Men that's another roster that's dependent a lot on the writing then it is the roster in my opinion.


I guess, but in both franchises, what are generally regarded as the peaks of popularity and storytelling don't feature both groups of 5 together as a unit or have the most popular dynamics come from the group. I mean, the _Dark Phoenix Saga_ obviously stars Scott and Jean and is considered the greatest X-Men story of all time...but otherwise puts way more focus on Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler than Angel and Iceman is absent entirely.

----------


## oasis1313

> I guess, but in both franchises, what are generally regarded as the peaks of popularity and storytelling don't feature both groups of 5 together as a unit or have the most popular dynamics come from the group. I mean, the _Dark Phoenix Saga_ obviously stars Scott and Jean and is considered the greatest X-Men story of all time...but otherwise puts way more focus on Wolverine, Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler than Angel and Iceman is absent entirely.


But they're still THERE; they're not off-panel and nobody knows why.    As you said, obviously Scott and Jean are the big focal point--it was one of the greatest love affairs in comics history.  I wonder if there is an accountability problem with comics companies:  It seems like it's okay to flub up a book (or several books), run it into the ground, then you go on to another gig and the company just blames it on the characters.  We should ALL have gigs like this!

----------


## Drako



----------


## oasis1313

> Oh, do not get me going on Devin Grayson's writing (and for the record, I met her briefly at the 1996 San Diego Comic Con...  She's a very nice person...  But her writing...  <shudder>).  I was really enjoying the Technis Imperative storyline, until she had Dick chose the team he did to go up and deal with Victor.  There is *no* way that Dick would take Roy and Garth to deal with Vic over Raven, Kory and Gar (Gar ended up going by stowing away with the group - and he's the one that saved the day).  The Fab Five should never have never been the ones to deal with Vic over the NTT.  Killed the story then and there for me.
> 
> That, and a bunch of little things which showed me she and Phil Jimenez needed to do some much valued research (Kory could never fly in space unaided before that story and such) really made what seemed to be a really epic story into one that felt way to OOC for me.
> 
> So, while I liked her as a person, I would never want to see Ms. Grayson write for DC comics ever again.


I'm sure that Dan Abnett is a very nice guy--that doesn't change the fact that he's running the Titans book into the ground.  This is no way personal towards these creators--it's all about the books and making them everything they should be.

----------


## Pohzee

https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-n...itans-disband/
Pull the trigger DC!

----------


## RedBird

> https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-n...itans-disband/
> Pull the trigger DC!


*God I hope so*, although I wonder whats the endgame here, simply using them as a sacrificial lamb to get the heroes together? Completely disbanding the team after woulds? Updates to the timeline thanks to universe mumbo jumbo to cause changes within the teams roster?. 

I've been fairly critical of Titans myself and have no love for the rebirth series, but the sales have been doing relatively well, no? So I wonder, why the update or 'shake up'?, if there even is a major update for them in particular. Snyders comments on twitter may have been referring to a change within TT or JL etc and not necessarily anything 'major' in Titans. Am I mistaken about the relatively positive sales figures? Or have they plummeted recently?

----------


## ayanestar

If the answer is "playing the events sacrificial lambs" then it's just sad but I can't wait till Dick is freed from this franchise...at least in the comics.

----------


## nightbird

> https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-n...itans-disband/
> Pull the trigger DC!


Well, I guess No Justice will be another humiliation moment for Titans team.

----------


## Badou

> 


Why is his hair so long? I guess that is just artist interpretation I suppose.

----------


## Ascended

> Why is his hair so long? I guess that is just artist interpretation I suppose.


Eh, I like Dick with longer hair anyway. 

Maybe not the ass-length ponytail from the 90's, but he looks better when its to his shoulders.

----------


## ayanestar

> Why is his hair so long? I guess that is just artist interpretation I suppose.


It also could be a timeskip. Anyway I usually like long hair but this looks messy.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, I guess No Justice will be another “humiliation moment” for Titans team.


So same as Dick in Forever Evil

the problem of doing this is that they refuse to establish how great he or the Titans is
aside from saying their jsut good enough that their defeat means that this is a threat.

----------


## Frontier

> Why is his hair so long? I guess that is just artist interpretation I suppose.


It only looks marginally longer then what we have now, though that might also be Manapul just emphasizing the action or dynamism of the scene. 

He draws a nice Nightwing  :Smile: .

----------


## Badou

> It only looks marginally longer then what we have now, though that might also be Manapul just emphasizing the action or dynamism of the scene. 
> 
> He draws a nice Nightwing .


It looks like it is nearly touching his shoulders. 

I like how short it is in the current Nightwing run. I always felt if it was too long then it would bother him while he was fighting.

----------


## Frontier

> It looks like it is nearly touching his shoulders. 
> 
> I like how short it is in the current Nightwing run. I always felt if it was too long then it would bother him while he was fighting.


I don't know, I think you could make the case that the longer hair works better from a visual standpoint, especially with how Dick is constantly in motion, but I also don't think it looks that long in that Manapul picture either (even if it is longer then this image).

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, I guess No Justice will be another “humiliation moment” for Titans team.


Just consider it a Mercy Killing, something to put the Titans and us out of our misery.

Also, I vote for Dick with longer hair.  It makes him look different from the rest of the clones.

----------


## Badou

> I don't know, I think you could make the case that the longer hair works better from a visual standpoint, especially with how Dick is constantly in motion, but I also don't think it looks that long in that Manapul picture either (even if it is longer then this image).


Looking at some other drawings Manapul has done of Nightwing I think he just likes drawing him with longer hair. He has pretty long hair in his other sketches or drawings from the looks of it. So I think that is just how he likes to draw the character and probably doesn't mean much.

----------


## Frontier

> Looking at some other drawings Manapul has done of Nightwing I think he just likes drawing him with longer hair. He has pretty long hair in his other sketches or drawings from the looks of it. So I think that is just how he likes to draw the character and probably doesn't mean much.


Oh, cool  :Smile: .

Although the hair in that image doesn't looks as long as in the other art, at least to me.

----------


## Godlike13

I wouldn't hate it if the long hair made comeback. You don't see many dude superheroes with long hair.

----------


## Pohzee

Long hair is too edgy late '90s/'00s. No thank you. 

I don't need angsty Dick complaining to Batdad about not wanting a haircut. He should have grown past that.

It's called a clean cut for a reason.

----------


## Godlike13

And another word for clean cut, boring  :Stick Out Tongue: . He should have grown past Batdad cutting his hair too. Long hair isn't gonna turn Dick into an edgelord.

----------


## Badou

> I wouldn't hate it if the long hair made comeback. You don't see many dude superheroes with long hair.


Probably because it looks silly and is out of date. Same reason you don't see many superheroes with mullets anymore.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

I think Dick pulls of long hair more then I would expect from a male character, but that's just me.

----------


## Pohzee

I understand what you are saying, but I think that that works better for a younger Nightwing. Using Seeley's analogy about college as a benchmark, I see it like this:

-Long hair is a sign of independence that a young college student might make after being used to strict dress/hygene codes by parents/schools
-When Dick started out as Nightwing or finished as Robin, he grew longer hair
-However, according to Seeley, Dick right now is "post-college." He's matured beyond the point of needing physical manifestations of independence and will be better groomed as he sets out on his own.
-Tim or Jason are probably closer to the "long hair phase" than Dick at this point

Also, it looks bad. Real bad.

----------


## Frontier

> I understand what you are saying, but I think that that works better for a younger Nightwing. Using Seeley's analogy about college as a benchmark, I see it like this:
> 
> -Long hair is a sign of independence that a young college student might make after being used to strict dress/hygene codes by parents/schools
> -When Dick started out as Nightwing or finished as Robin, he grew longer hair
> -However, according to Seeley, Dick right now is "post-college." He's matured beyond the point of needing physical manifestations of independence and will be better groomed as he sets out on his own.
> -Tim or Jason are probably closer to the "long hair phase" than Dick at this point
> 
> Also, it looks bad. Real bad.


It looks fine to me, especially drawn by Manapul, but to each their own  :Smile: .

----------


## oasis1313

> I wouldn't hate it if the long hair made comeback. You don't see many dude superheroes with long hair.


I think it'd look pretty good.  You could argue that long hair would be good for getting grabbed by the hair, but who could catch Dick Grayson if he didn't want to close in?  They should have Dick with long hair, Jason with either red hair or the black with the white stripe in it, Damian with a spiky look, and Tim should be bald.  At least try to set them apart visually.

----------


## nightbird

> I understand what you are saying, but I think that that works better for a younger Nightwing. Using Seeley's analogy about college as a benchmark, I see it like this:
> 
> -Long hair is a sign of independence that a young college student might make after being used to strict dress/hygene codes by parents/schools
> -When Dick started out as Nightwing or finished as Robin, he grew longer hair
> -However, according to Seeley, Dick right now is "post-college." He's matured beyond the point of needing physical manifestations of independence and will be better groomed as he sets out on his own.
> -Tim or Jason are probably closer to the "long hair phase" than Dick at this point
> 
> Also, it looks bad. Real bad.


Agree. I don’t think there is any need for long hair now. Especially considering a lot of artists bad at drawing them on men.

----------


## oasis1313

> Agree. I don’t think there is any need for long hair now. Especially considering a lot of artists bad at drawing them on men.


Nobody ever looked as good with a mullet as Dick Grayson.

----------


## nightbird

> Nobody ever looked as good with a mullet as Dick Grayson.


That’s why some thug (thankfully) cut it lol

----------


## Godlike13

His ponytail was too long, but still I like that one can benchmark Dicks history by his hairstyles. So why not have him grow it out a bit. I mean man buns are in right now.

----------


## jbmasta

> I understand what you are saying, but I think that that works better for a younger Nightwing. Using Seeley's analogy about college as a benchmark, I see it like this:
> 
> -Long hair is a sign of independence that a young college student might make after being used to strict dress/hygene codes by parents/schools
> -When Dick started out as Nightwing or finished as Robin, he grew longer hair
> -However, according to Seeley, Dick right now is "post-college." He's matured beyond the point of needing physical manifestations of independence and will be better groomed as he sets out on his own.
> -Tim or Jason are probably closer to the "long hair phase" than Dick at this point
> 
> Also, it looks bad. Real bad.


If done in a certain way it makes the character look androgynous (not distinctly male or female). You see it in manga or anime style designs (where busts are either not noticeable or huge, the former further helping confusion on the matter.

Nightwing would work well in an anime style presentation. Add in the detective angle and he's even more perfect for it.

----------


## yohyoi

The long hair confirms it is Nightwing who is between Harley and the Flash in the No Justice cover. I'm wondering if he is part of the team in some capacity or working outside it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BeiVyU-Bxoz/

----------


## Drako

I think it's just a Francis Manapul thing. He likes to draw Dick with long hair.

Hal Grayson

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20111003140346

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...grayson004.jpg

Dick Grayson

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a954c6ec3e.jpg

https://ifanboy.com/wp-content/uploa..._JCCS20102.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9e5597f56...m4udo1_500.jpg

----------


## nightbird

> His ponytail was too long, but still I like that one can benchmark Dicks history by his hairstyles. So why not have him grow it out a bit. I mean man buns are in right now.


Yikes lol
Also, imo, his costume goes better with clean cut hairstyle.

----------


## nightbird

> The long hair confirms it is Nightwing who is between Harley and the Flash in the No Justice cover. I'm wondering if he is part of the team in some capacity or working outside it.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BeiVyU-Bxoz/


Or maybe he supposed to be in Flash team until they replaced him with Cyborg.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yikes lol
> Also, imo, his costume goes better with clean cut hairstyle.


Hey, 77 year olds need to stay hip  :Cool:

----------


## nightbird

> Hey, 77 year olds need to stay hip


Man buns last season’s trend anyway lol

----------


## oasis1313

> Man buns last season’s trend anyway lol


But skintight Spandex (and/or leather) is ALWAYS in style!

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a15/1801/00/f769c47dd3fc.jpg[/IMG]

by rubens bernardino

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a15/1801/00/f769c47dd3fc.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> by rubens bernardino


Hair in this one is pretty good--a little longer, but not too short.  Thanks for sharing!

----------


## Fergus

I like Nightwing with the long hair.

----------


## Fergus

> But skintight Spandex (and/or leather) is ALWAYS in style!


For rock stars and superheroes they never go out of fashion. 
That's a lot of talc in ones lifetime.

----------


## Ascended

Im not a fashion guy, but Im confused about the people saying long hair means you're some sort of teenaged rebel or edgelord.

I mean, hell, I know a lot of middle class business owners with long hair. And I mean like, "married with two kids, a house payment, and Wednesday night poker with the guys" business owners. About as far from "edgelords" as you can possibly get.

Much like tattoos, Im pretty sure long hair stopped being a sign of counter-culture years ago. I thought today's counter-culture idiots wore sweaters and hipster glasses?

----------


## dietrich

https://doublejiolo3.tumblr.

----------


## oasis1313

> Im not a fashion guy, but Im confused about the people saying long hair means you're some sort of teenaged rebel or edgelord.
> 
> I mean, hell, I know a lot of middle class business owners with long hair. And I mean like, "married with two kids, a house payment, and Wednesday night poker with the guys" business owners. About as far from "edgelords" as you can possibly get.
> 
> Much like tattoos, Im pretty sure long hair stopped being a sign of counter-culture years ago. I thought today's counter-culture idiots wore sweaters and hipster glasses?


I think hair length isn't a societal thing anymore.  Some people like their hair longer, some shorter, no matter the age.  Dick's hair isn't all that long most of the time, and it sets him apart visually a bit from all the other black-haired super dudes at DC.  The "angry young man" stuff is so passe' now; it's been done to death.  Dick needs some fun adventures.

----------


## The World

Everytime I've seen Dick with long hair he either looks like he's trapped in the late 80's-early 90's or is trying to fit the part of a grunge band even coming from Manapul who's a great artist he just looks off. He's been a clean cut guy most of his life, just kind works for him.

----------


## oasis1313

> Everytime I've seen Dick with long hair he either looks like he's trapped in the late 80's-early 90's or is trying to fit the part of a grunge band even coming from Manapul who's a great artist he just looks off. He's been a clean cut guy most of his life, just kind works for him.


I think Dick looked clean-cut even with the hip-length ponytail.  Is Manapul going to be drawing more Nightwing on any official basis?

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Oh no! Did I miss the hair discussion! I have strong hair opinions too!

Now for most your hair says a lot about you. It can be an extension of self expression. Also distinguishing haircuts are generally cool. There's a reason anime characters have weird hair lol. I'm in the give Nightwing Long Hair group, but only if they keep it stylish. Cool man bun, chill ponytail, or bedhead. Throw in an awesome five o'clock shadow and you got a badass Dick Grayson, Charmer, Lady-Killer. Right now he's Good Ol'Dick, Gentleman, Nice to look at, but his hair is boring. Plain. Generic. And I don't like using plain & generic to describe Nightwing nor his stories and it enrages me. But I digress...

Not to mention this fixes the All Robin look alike problem we have. Every Robin has a distant hairstyle and sense so we don't have to go by height all the damn time. They all look like Alfred cuts their hair on the weekend with old rusty butler scissors. Todd gets the undercut-fade. Drake gets a buzzcut or a pomp-like hairstyle. Damian's already distinguishable imo.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh no! Did I miss the hair discussion! I have strong hair opinions too!
> 
> Now for most your hair says a lot about you. It can be an extension of self expression. Also distinguishing haircuts are generally cool. There's a reason anime characters have weird hair lol. I'm in the give Nightwing Long Hair group, but only if they keep it stylish. Cool man bun, chill ponytail, or bedhead. Throw in an awesome five o'clock shadow and you got a badass Dick Grayson, Charmer, Lady-Killer. Right now he's Good Ol'Dick, Gentleman, Nice to look at, but his hair is boring. Plain. Generic. And I don't like using plain & generic to describe Nightwing nor his stories and it enrages me. But I digress...
> 
> Not to mention this fixes the All Robin look alike problem we have. Every Robin has a distant hairstyle and sense so we don't have to go by height all the damn time. They all look like Alfred cuts their hair on the weekend with old rusty butler scissors. Todd gets the undercut-fade. Drake gets a buzzcut or a pomp-like hairstyle. Damian's already distinguishable imo.


AND Alfred uses the Special Bat Haircut Bowl for them all too!!!!!!  And I consider hair discussions to be very important.  All things Dick matter.

----------


## jbmasta

> AND Alfred uses the Special Bat Haircut Bowl for them all too!!!!!!  And I consider hair discussions to be very important.  All things Dick matter.


Guy Gardner must have been dropping by, he had the pudding bowl haircut for a while.

----------


## oasis1313

> Guy Gardner must have been dropping by, he had the pudding bowl haircut for a while.


Has he changed it?  Last I saw, he still had it.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I'm all for long haired Dick. Just not mullets or rat tails.

tumblr_owp17z9vCh1rzpv00o1_1280.jpg
tumblr_inline_owrp0nDlv81rrk7wy_1280.jpg

I'm all for these kind of styles.
Not my art. Credit to http://laquilasse.tumblr.com

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I agree, Dick's hair is kinda boring. Like, I'm not really thinking he needs to change it, but I'd love it if he slowly grew his hair out and then had some long hair like in Lady Nightwing's post. 

If they were going to keep him with medium length hair, I say he should just get that K-Pop star look. He'd at least start looking different from the other Robins who generally have shorter hairstyles.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm alright with any hair style as long as it looks clean and fits with Dick's personality.

----------


## Ascended

> I agree, Dick's hair is kinda boring. Like, I'm not really thinking he needs to change it, but I'd love it if he slowly grew his hair out and then had some long hair like in Lady Nightwing's post. 
> 
> If they were going to keep him with medium length hair, I say he should just get that K-Pop star look. He'd at least start looking different from the other Robins who generally have shorter hairstyles.


I actually like the length he has in your avatar picture. At least....I think. It looks about shoulder length, right?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'd be open to Dick sporting the Tim Riggins look, but no longer than that.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'd be open to Dick sporting the Tim Riggins look, but no longer than that.


Who is Tim Riggins?

----------


## nightbird

I didn’t know so many Dick fans here likes him with long hair  lol

----------


## Dzetoun

Well, here we go. The announcement about Bendis taking over Superman and Action Comics is probably the forerunner of several changes. Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens are now available, so to speak, while Abnett seems to be finishing up his Titans run and Christopher Priest may or may not be finishing up with Justice League. Green Arrow seems ready for a shakeup. More to the point of this thread, Humphries at Nightwing has been conspicuously silent about April's fill-ins and what comes after. And Chris McKay has been saying he will have more about the Nightwing movie around Valentine's Day, which may be a pure coincidence but may not. The solicits later this month may be very interesting or very disappointing, or both.

----------


## nightbird

> Well, here we go. The announcement about Bendis taking over Superman and Action Comics is probably the forerunner of several changes. Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens are now available, so to speak, while Abnett seems to be finishing up his Titans run and Christopher Priest may or may not be finishing up with Justice League. Green Arrow seems ready for a shakeup. More to the point of this thread, Humphries at Nightwing has been conspicuously silent about April's fill-ins and what comes after. And Chris McKay has been saying he will have more about the Nightwing movie around Valentine's Day, which may be a pure coincidence but may not. The solicits later this month may be very interesting or very disappointing, or both.


About that Valentine’s Day announcement. WB scheduled one of their unnamed DC movie on February 14, 2020. I wonder what the odds that it could be Nightwing’s movie date..?

----------


## ayanestar

> Well, here we go. The announcement about Bendis taking over Superman and Action Comics is probably the forerunner of several changes. Tomasi, Gleason, and Jurgens are now available, so to speak, while Abnett seems to be finishing up his Titans run and Christopher Priest may or may not be finishing up with Justice League. Green Arrow seems ready for a shakeup. More to the point of this thread, Humphries at Nightwing has been conspicuously silent about April's fill-ins and what comes after. And Chris McKay has been saying he will have more about the Nightwing movie around Valentine's Day, which may be a pure coincidence but may not. The solicits later this month may be very interesting or very disappointing, or both.


It's not NW related but I hope Tomasi and Gleason can write Super Sons together. The book is so much fun and both writers know how to handle the kids. I wouldn't mind if Gleason joined the team.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what DC has planned for Nightwing but I'll be honest I'm not very optimistic lol Seeley and King are both gone and so far it doesn't look like there is anything interesting coming up for Dick and as long as DC puts Snyder in charge of anything Batman related I doubt we can expect much for him however I hope DC will prove me wrong.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> More to the point of this thread, Humphries at Nightwing has been conspicuously silent about April's fill-ins and what comes after.


Exactly what I think. So it's highly likely Nightwing will get a new writer in May...

----------


## ayanestar

I've heard that Superman will be renumbered to #1. It is possible that DC plans this for all of their books except 'Tec and Action. I mean the sales are getting really low lately so it's probably for the best. I haven't read Humphries arc yet but the response online isn't exactly great so maybe it's for the best if NW gets a new writer again. I just hope it's not Bendis lmao

----------


## Badou

I think Humphries will be back on the title for a while. DC is never going to put a Bendis or some writer on that level on Nightwing. It just doesn't happen. Writers like that have their eyes set on a Superman or a Batman tier character. Nightwing doesn't really come into the conversation. DC usually uses Nightwing as a stepping stone for younger writers. 

And I just couldn't take Nightwing seriously with long hair. It is just too silly. Him running around with a manbun fighting crime is just way too hipster and I never really saw Dick as a hipster. Also it is completely impractical, but to each their own I guess, lol.

----------


## ayanestar

Well in my opinion Bendis is not "on that level" but whatever it works for me. Just keep the guy away from my favorite books lol

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I think Humphries will be back on the title for a while. DC is never going to put a Bendis or some writer on that level on Nightwing. It just doesn't happen. Writers like that have their eyes set on a Superman or a Batman tier character. Nightwing doesn't really come into the conversation. DC usually uses Nightwing as a stepping stone for younger writers.


Do you think there is any chance that we could have Priest?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> About that Valentine’s Day announcement. WB scheduled one of their unnamed DC movie on February 14, 2020. I wonder what the odds that it could be Nightwing’s movie date..?


That could be a brilliant move, but I actually wasn't even thinking about romance in the Nightwing movie. I mean, it's a mainstream superhero movie so it kinda needs it, but I wasn't even considering it. I wonder what McKay has in mind.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Who is Tim Riggins?


Character from a tv show, friday night lights. agnsty but good natured hunk type character with hair that goes just above the shoulder.




> That could be a brilliant move, but I actually wasn't even thinking about romance in the Nightwing movie. I mean, it's a mainstream superhero movie so it kinda needs it, but I wasn't even considering it. I wonder what McKay has in mind.


Given my ideal for movie Nightwing is "insert romdram protagonist played by ryan gosling here" who fights crime, I would hope we get a fair helping of romance. More than just the tacked on bits we usually get in mainstream superhero movies.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Do you think there is any chance that we could have Priest?


Given that Priest has been very forthright in his view that Dick Grayson is a very boring character (whitebread is the term he uses), I would certainly hope not.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Given that Priest has been very forthright in his view that Dick Grayson is a very boring character (“whitebread” is the term he uses), I would certainly hope not.


That's not exactly right, he clarified that he feels writers don't do anything interesting with him. I doubt Priest is the type to actually read Nightwing solos, and is more likely to have just read NTT stuff, and then read random appearances from Dick over the past few years. Like, if he tried reading Abnett's Titans right before The Lazarus Contract, I could see why he would say what he said, lol.

He may not think highly of Nightwing, but it's a fact that he's made sure to include Dick's history with Rose, added an extra bit between Dick and Slade (the actual Lazarus Contract), and has used Raptor in two separate arcs. Plus, he did give Dick a couple pages in a recent issue of Justice League, so I feel like he'd be interested in putting his own take out there, and I'm just interested in getting a Nightwing run that isn't just liked by fans, but is critically acclaimed. Also I want more Raptor, so, yeah. I doubt we'd get him, but I'm always going to hope for Priest on Nightwing or Titans.

----------


## Badou

> Do you think there is any chance that we could have Priest?


Even Priest has his eyes set on Batman, but I think Priest might be going over to Marvel? There was some rumor about him going to some writing summit for them I think.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Even Priest has his eyes set on Batman, but I think Priest might be going over to Marvel? There was some rumor about him going to some writing summit for them I think.


Pretty sure bleeding cool had photos, so he was there. 

I'm not sure how long Coates plans to stay on but I could see them getting him back on BP now that he'll have more exposure from the movie.

----------


## ayanestar

Every comic writer has his eyes set on Batman. All of them want to be the next Synder or something lol 
I don't really trust Priest with Dick but who knows, he might be willing to take some risks. Anyway it would be a surprise if he goes to Marvel. I've the feeling everyone wants to escape them right now lol but he might get more money there soo...

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Given that Priest has been very forthright in his view that Dick Grayson is a very boring character (“whitebread” is the term he uses), I would certainly hope not.


He corrected it later, explaing that he meant Dick shouldnt be written like a boring character the way he is, and he would be glad to write about him. I just wonder what Priest would do with Dick if he had the chance. He said Dick looks like a blandest, flawless Gary Stu, which I dont agree, but I am very curious about what flaws Priest may give Dick to enable his said 'character development'. Besides, sometimes the quality of story has nothing to do with the writer's attitude towards the character, Priest admitted that he never read anything about Deathstroke before he came to DC but still managed to deliever one of the best deathstroke run.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Even Priest has his eyes set on Batman, but I think Priest might be going over to Marvel? There was some rumor about him going to some writing summit for them I think.


Yeah he might go back to Marvel, that's my guess too.  :Frown:  I just hope its not exclusive and he could keep writing some titles for DC

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That's not exactly right, he clarified that he feels writers don't do anything interesting with him. I doubt Priest is the type to actually read Nightwing solos, and is more likely to have just read NTT stuff, and then read random appearances from Dick over the past few years. Like, if he tried reading Abnett's Titans right before The Lazarus Contract, I could see why he would say what he said, lol.


Wow never thought about that but you made a good point. Lol

----------


## Badou

> Pretty sure bleeding cool had photos, so he was there. 
> 
> I'm not sure how long Coates plans to stay on but I could see them getting him back on BP now that he'll have more exposure from the movie.


I was thinking that after how he wrote Deathstroke Priest might do well on a new Wolverine comic. I think Priest wants to get out of the "black writer writes a black character" trend he finds himself in, but he might feel the urge to go back to BP. They are bringing back the real Wolverine and you figure they will give him a new book. Priest seems drawn to characters who have a lot of personal and family problems, which is why I think he doesn't care for Dick's character, and would do well with a Wolverine.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I was thinking that after how he wrote Deathstroke Priest might do well on a new Wolverine comic. I think Priest wants to get out of the "black writer writes a black character" trend he finds himself in, but he might feel the urge to go back to BP. They are bringing back the real Wolverine and you figure they will give him a new book. Priest seems drawn to characters who have a lot of personal and family problems, which is why I think he doesn't care for Dick's character, and would do well with a Wolverine.


Agreed, the only reason I brought up BP is because if he was ever going to do another run with the character, there is no better time than the present, and it would probably lead to a fair amount of exposure from outside media. Wolverine makes a lot of sense though.

----------


## Badou

> He corrected it later, explaing that he meant Dick shouldnt be written like a boring character the way he is, and he would be glad to write about him. I just wonder what Priest would do with Dick if he had the chance. He said Dick looks like a blandest, flawless Gary Stu, which I dont agree, but I am very curious about what flaws Priest may give Dick to enable his said 'character development'. Besides, sometimes the quality of story has nothing to do with the writer's attitude towards the character, Priest admitted that he never read anything about Deathstroke before he came to DC but still managed to deliever one of the best deathstroke run.


I've read what Priest said and I think he would change Dick's character to fit something he finds more interesting. So it would be a lot of angst and personal drama. He said he thinks Dick should have a lot of conflict with Bruce because Dick was basically put through child endangerment as Robin and he should feel more resentment or something. I don't really agree with it, but I think that is what he would do with the character. 

I didn't particularly care for how he wrote Dick in Lazarus Contract and the Rose stuff has been irrelevant so far after that one page mention of it. I'm pretty sure the Dick training Rose is a dead plot thread now. Priest seems much more interested in Damian and Bruce as characters because he likes their archetype more and that is who he has been trying to write. I mean I wouldn't say no if Priest wants to write Nightwing but I'd have low expectations is all and would be surprised he would even be interested in doing it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> About that Valentines Day announcement. WB scheduled one of their unnamed DC movie on February 14, 2020. I wonder what the odds that it could be Nightwings movie date..?

----------


## WonderNight

is that barbara? ... man let nightwing have his own world first please! I don't want nightwing in the dceu revolving around batman/fam.

the batfam can come in after nightwing has his own first.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Even Priest has his eyes set on Batman, but I think Priest might be going over to Marvel? There was some rumor about him going to some writing summit for them I think.


He was at the summit of Marvel exclusives according to Bleeding Cool. However, the statement that was reported, I believe, was that he was passing through town on the way elsewhere and the organizers invited him to drop by for old times sake. It was also reported that Hickman was seen at the summit.

----------


## Rac7d*

> is that barbara? ... man let nightwing have his own world first please! I don't want nightwing in the dceu revolving around batman/fam.
> 
> the batfam can come in after nightwing has his own first.


unless their worlds have already collided due to history as robin

----------


## ayanestar

> unless their worlds have already collided due to history as robin


Can someone please go back in time and give this poor boy a new Robin costume like seriously who is responsible for this? I need to talk to the artist, who redesigned it. It looks especially bad in this art style.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Can someone please go back in time and give this poor boy a new Robin costume like seriously who is responsible for this? I need to talk to the artist, who redesigned it. It looks especially bad in this art style.


Its been over 5 years, be like elsa and let it go
However Titans and His solo film may impact what his Robin uniform would look like

----------


## ayanestar

> Its been over 5 years, be like elsa and let it go
> However Titans and His solo film may impact what his Robin uniform would look like


Listen DC had the perfect opportunity to pretend this costume never happened and they wasted it again so no I can't let it go lol I can't believe no one has tried to undo this in 5 years. DC really hate Dick and yes I'm being overdramatic.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I've read what Priest said and I think he would change Dick's character to fit something he finds more interesting. So it would be a lot of angst and personal drama. He said he thinks Dick should have a lot of conflict with Bruce because Dick was basically put through child endangerment as Robin and he should feel more resentment or something. I don't really agree with it, but I think that is what he would do with the character. 
> 
> I didn't particularly care for how he wrote Dick in Lazarus Contract and the Rose stuff has been irrelevant so far after that one page mention of it. I'm pretty sure the Dick training Rose is a dead plot thread now. Priest seems much more interested in Damian and Bruce as characters because he likes their archetype more and that is who he has been trying to write. I mean I wouldn't say no if Priest wants to write Nightwing but I'd have low expectations is all and would be surprised he would even be interested in doing it.


Well I've never read that part. Priest's opinion on Dick and Bruce's relationship is...interesting and not something I'd want to see in comics. Now i have to give the new writer thing a second thought...

----------


## oasis1313

> Listen DC had the perfect opportunity to pretend this costume never happened and they wasted it again so no I can't let it go lol I can't believe no one has tried to undo this in 5 years. DC really hate Dick and yes I'm being overdramatic.


I don't think you're being over-dramatic.  Sometimes you just have to express how you feel.  It wouldn't be appropriate to let loose with a big fat string of swearing and cursing in a public forum, so we have to say how we feel as civilly as possible.  Some people naturally express themselves in more illustrative terms than others, so I don't consider anyone here as being particularly over-dramatic.  It's how you feel so it's what you should say.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Listen DC had the perfect opportunity to pretend this costume never happened and they wasted it again so no I can't let it go lol I can't believe no one has tried to undo this in 5 years. DC really hate Dick and yes I'm being overdramatic.


or mabey they like the costume lol

If titans and teen titans get canceled can i get my Nightwing and Robin book
I would buy 100 issues of that,

----------


## oasis1313

> or mabey they like the costume lol
> 
> If titans and teen titans get canceled can i get my Nightwing and Robin book
> I would buy 100 issues of that,


They're such a great team, and Dick is far better Dad material than Bruce.  Damian deserves better than being shuffled to some generic Titans title.  It would sell great.

----------


## Godlike13

Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.

----------


## ayanestar

> Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.


Rebirth Bruce is a horrible father however I don't blame it on him, I blame it on Snyder. Batman & Robin did so much for Damian's relationship with Bruce but Snyder and now King are doing a horrible job. Anyway this is the wrong thread to have a discussion about Damian and Bruce.

I personally would love to read a Nightwing and Robin book. These two will always be my favorite Dynamic Duo and I'll miss Seeley's writing. He understood their relationship really well. I also want Dick to meet Jon and to tease Damian about his new friend  :Wink: 
+ I agree with Dick being the better "Dad material", which is why I always enjoy stories with future Dick and his children but it looks like DC will never allow him to get married in the canon timeline (but it's ok he has Damian  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## nightbird

> Listen DC had the perfect opportunity to pretend this costume never happened and they wasted it again so no I can't let it go lol I can't believe no one has tried to undo this in 5 years. DC really hate Dick and yes I'm being overdramatic.


I want to join your overdramatic party. This costume supposed to be “unfinished prototype”, not “regular one”.

----------


## nightbird

> That could be a brilliant move, but I actually wasn't even thinking about romance in the Nightwing movie. I mean, it's a mainstream superhero movie so it kinda needs it, but I wasn't even considering it. I wonder what McKay has in mind.


Maybe not romance, but more eye-candy for girls and cool action for guys type of movie. Something that couples can easily enjoy together.

----------


## dietrich

> Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.


I think more of the credit goes to the foundation the Grayson's set in their son and Dick personality

----------


## dietrich

The First Robin by RyuDagen




This thread moves so fast I hope this isn't already posted.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think more of the credit goes to the foundation the Grayson's set in their son and Dick personality


And who was there when the Grayson’s couldn’t be, Bruce. So I think Bruce deserves his fair share of credit for Dick being there for Damian, and trying to be to Damian what Bruce was to him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.





> They're such a great team, and Dick is far better Dad material than Bruce.  Damian deserves better than being shuffled to some generic Titans title.  It would sell great.





> Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.


He is a good father and loves Damian very much (which is wh that deathstroke thing is a joke) but its the same as selina, Damian is number 2 to gotham, then again that not bad, he did go to hell and back for damian. Then again  right now it a bit akward to me that selina is now damians step mother

----------


## yohyoi

Rebirth tossed away all the Bruce development from Nu52 Batman & Robin. He is back to being an absentee father. Damian is allowed to go crazy. Even the Batman series have few Robin appearances.

----------


## dietrich

> And who was there when the Graysons couldnt be, Bruce. So I think Bruce deserves his fair share of credit for Dick being there for Damian, and trying to be to Damian what Bruce was to him.


Bruce was but I still don't rate him. I think Dick turned out how he did in-spite of Bruce's parenting which was dodgy any spotty at best. There are tons of panels where he is good but also tons of panels where he is terrible. 
I do agree that Dick was to Damian what Bruce tried to be for him.

----------


## Frontier

> Bruce was but I still don't rate him. I* think Dick turned out how he did in-spite of Bruce's parenting which was dodgy any spotty at best*. There are tons of panels where he is good but also tons of panels where he is terrible. 
> I do agree that Dick was to Damian what Bruce tried to be for him.


I dunno, I know Bruce has his faults but I think looking at it that way takes away from how meaningful Bruce and Dick's relationship is or how significant what Bruce did for Dick was.

I also know people like to point to all the problematic or less well-adjusted aspects of Batman, and in the animated movie continuity Dick constantly goes on about how terrible being raised by Batman is, but in-spite-that I just don't want to view the relationship that way.  

I also agree that Dick did for Damian what Bruce did for him and was central to Damian's initial character development.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Dick once said Bruce was the best father he could be based on his situation. I agree. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick once said Bruce was the best father he could be based on the his situation. I agree.


I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.


I tend to think Bruce has tried his best in his own way and Dick understands that. Given that its been more than 75 years, we both could find plenty of canon to back up our opinions respectively. So let's agree to disagree :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.


That's one of my least favourite interpretations of the Batman/Robin relationship, I hate when we get that in stories.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Bruce was but I still don't rate him. I think Dick turned out how he did in-spite of Bruce's parenting which was dodgy any spotty at best. There are tons of panels where he is good but also tons of panels where he is terrible. 
> I do agree that Dick was to Damian what Bruce tried to be for him.


Bruce was a good if sometimes flawed father figure before _Crisis_ hit, and they suddenly had to engineer conflict between them to get some cheap drama going.

The superior Bronze Age Bruce was a good mentor, so I tend to lean on that one as the true representation of what he's like as a father figure. And he's overall good one.




> I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.


Not all versions of Batman are like that though. The ones that are, IMO, totally suck.

----------


## Elmo

Bruce is just a stale boring character now. Any big status quo change or development that a writer may try out is reversed by the next person to come along, and this is how it's been for the past couple decades or so. BatCat is probably the biggest thing to happen in years, and hopefully Tom King remains on the title for another 100 issues or so but I'm not confident that it will stick at all because the general public perception of Batman is that he is a brooding, depressive loner. The general audience doesn't even know about the Bat family and Robin is considered a joke to people who have never read the comics or seen the cartoons. It's crap.

If Dick were Batman in the comics and in the films it would allow the public to witness a Batman who isn't a brooding asshole, but is light-hearted and does a bit of wisecracking, but is also not invincible by any means. 

I understand many want Nightwing to be a top tier character but I honestly think that is impossible considering Bruce will always be considered "the best" by the general audience. However, if Bruce were to be removed and Dick were to take his place (and not for a year or so, I mean for a WHILE) , it would allow people who don't know a lot about him to embrace him and take him seriously as a high-level character. And then, once the public perception has shifted and people know about Dick Grayson and how important he is, he can go back to being Nightwing, and Nightwing can be as big (or bigger) than Batman.

It starts with the character, not the codename. Bruce is the only thing holding Dick back. Get rid of him, and you can really evolve and develop Dick's character. Once you develop the character and do all you can to get the public to believe in him and care about him, not just the comics and cartoon fans, THEN you can get Nightwing to move to the top.

----------


## Barbatos666

Getting rid of Bruce to prop Dick will only turn Bruce fans against him. Besides Marvel tried this strategy, it doesn't really matter at all. Moreover the basic logic that one can succeed only if the other person goes away just makes the former look like a weak character. Many would even say that such characters dont deserve to be lifted.

----------


## Frontier

> That's one of my least favourite interpretations of the Batman/Robin relationship, I hate when we get that in stories.


I understand where that interpretation comes from though, given how much writers play up Batman's militant view of his crusade and war on crime can be and how the Robins or his protege's fit into that. I mean, I'm not crazy about the idea of Robins as child soldiers either, but I understand where it comes from. 

Even in _Under the Red Hood_ we saw how important Jason was to Bruce and that he was generally a warm mentor to him during their years together, even when Jason started going off the rails. But he still referred to him as "My partner. My soldier." 

I think it's only really bad when it comes off like Bruce using it as an excuse to be cold, condescending, or downright cruel, but even then you could see it as a coping mechanism.



> If Dick were Batman in the comics and in the films it would allow the public to witness a Batman who isn't a brooding asshole, but is light-hearted and does a bit of wisecracking, but is also not invincible by any means.


We still get that with Bruce sometimes though.

----------


## ayanestar

> Getting rid of Bruce to prop Dick will only turn Bruce fans against him. Besides Marvel tried this strategy, it doesn't really matter at all. Moreover the basic logic that one can succeed only if the other person goes away just makes the former look like a weak character. Many would even say that such characters dont deserve to be lifted.


You are right. It sounds exactly what Marvel tried these last years and it only hurt the company. I mean I enjoyed Dick as Batman especially because of his relationship with Damian but Bruce is Batman and Dick doesn't want to be Batman. I might have my complaints about Bruce but I don't actually want anyone to replace him for no reason. Getting rid of a character to push another one is simply stupid. Also Bruce is not holding back Nightwing, his own fans are unwilling to get him move forward. Just look at his tumblr fandom. They worship a mediocre book like Titans.

----------


## Elmo

The main problem is Bruce Wayne is just not that great of a character anymore and works better as a legend who is left in the past

----------


## Frontier

> The main problem is Bruce Wayne is just not that great of a character anymore and works better as a legend who is left in the past


75+ years and counting and I think he'll still be going strong for 75 years more  :Smile: .

Same with Dick.

----------


## ayanestar

> The main problem is Bruce Wayne is just not that great of a character anymore and works better as a legend who is left in the past


I'm still enjoying quite many Batman stories so I can't really agree but to each their own. I mean I think Barry should be left in the past but he has many fans who still enjoy his character. Also like Frontier pointed out Dick himself is one of DC's oldest characters lol 
All characters can work as long as they get the creative team they deserve and Batman always gets the top writers and artists.

----------


## nightbird

> You are right. It sounds exactly what Marvel tried these last years and it only hurt the company. I mean I enjoyed Dick as Batman especially because of his relationship with Damian but Bruce is Batman and Dick doesn't want to be Batman. I might have my complaints about Bruce but I don't actually want anyone to replace him for no reason. Getting rid of a character to push another one is simply stupid. Also Bruce is not holding back Nightwing, his own fans are unwilling to get him move forward. Just look at his tumblr fandom. They worship a mediocre book like Titans.


Not really. Marvel created new characters (except Falcon and Jane) to take over mantles from old characters, all at the same time, while killing off or embarrassing originals. That’s what created uproar. But Dick is almost as old as Bruce and considered by some comic fans as his true heir. 

I don’t think general public right now interested in “light-hearted Batman”. And I don’t think Bruce is an obstacle for Nighwting to be an A-list character. Everything depends on DC and how much they’re willing to promote him.

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## SiegePerilous02

> The main problem is Bruce Wayne is just not that great of a character anymore and works better as a legend who is left in the past


Batman works fine for the vast majority. Like the other characters who are on his tier of  importance, he is static and has been for 75 years. But it's sustainable because he is always going to be new to somebody. He was over 50 by the time I first "met" him. They are meant to be enjoyed for stretches of time before we move on with our lives and let some new kids enjoy them. Or at least that's how it should be.

Getting rid of a character who works just fine to give a boost for one that is struggling doesn't solve anything. And Dick is great, but he's gone through long stretches of static storytelling  in between status quo shifts.

----------


## ayanestar

Has Dick ever meet any of the Green Lanterns in Rebirth? I know he hasn't been really close to any of them but I would like him to befriend Jessica at least  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> The main problem is Bruce Wayne is just not that great of a character anymore and works better as a legend who is left in the past


Dude, I dont have a mountain of love for Bruce either, and I see where you're coming from on this, but the sales, merchandise, reviews.......its basically an objective truth that this opinion is a very small minority. Bruce isn't going anywhere. The most he'll get is a short vacation where someone else gets to wear the cowl for a bit.




> I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.


I actually think it's a little of both "sides" of this. Bruce brings these kids in to fight a war. There's no churching that up, he trains them and conditions them to be soldiers. He exposes them to harmful chemicals and drugs to build up their tolerance. He makes them train until they can't stand. When they spar, his hits hurt, because Two-Face won't hold back either. And yeah, that's pretty f**ked up.

But none of that means he doesn't also care about and love these kids either. These kids are his hope for a better future. His hope that, no matter how messed up he is, he can leave something behind that is good and worthy. And yeah, Bruce will beat them bloody after exposing them to low level Scarecrow gas. But afterwards, he'll tend to those bruises himself. And he'll be gentle. And he'll make sure to praise the kid for what he did right during the match and give him encouragement. And then he'll make some hot chocolate and they'll watch a movie together. Bruce loves his sons, even though they're also his soldiers.

I think the Young Justice cartoon actually walked a fair balance between the "child soldier" and "tough love dad" approaches.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Dude, I dont have a mountain of love for Bruce either, and I see where you're coming from on this, but the sales, merchandise, reviews.......its basically an objective truth that this opinion is a very small minority. Bruce isn't going anywhere. The most he'll get is a short vacation where someone else gets to wear the cowl for a bit.


That goes for the other two members of the Trinity, too. Anybody betting against that will unquestionably lose.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> That goes for the other two members of the Trinity, too. Anybody betting against that will unquestionably lose.


Indeed. Wonder Woman is just as static as Batman, but she's brand new to all the little girls who saw her movie. When DC does it right, it's very easy for these characters to get new generations of fans without needing to change much of the formula beyond minor tweaks to make them more contemporary. Their static-ness can lead to things becoming boring for fans who follow them non-stop (Which they weren't made for to be fair), but it also makes them sustainable in the long run and easy to market. It can be a strength or it can be a weakness.

----------


## Badou

> Has Dick ever meet any of the Green Lanterns in Rebirth? I know he hasn't been really close to any of them but I would like him to befriend Jessica at least


Don't think he met any in Rebirth. Baz is the only one he met before Rebirth since the New 52 started that I can remember. It was in the Grayson Annual.

----------


## oasis1313

> But none of that means he doesn't also care about and love these kids either. These kids are his hope for a better future. His hope that, no matter how messed up he is, he can leave something behind that is good and worthy. And yeah, Bruce will beat them bloody after exposing them to low level Scarecrow gas. But afterwards, he'll tend to those bruises himself. And he'll be gentle. And he'll make sure to praise the kid for what he did right during the match and give him encouragement. And then he'll make some hot chocolate and they'll watch a movie together. Bruce loves his sons, even though they're also his soldiers.


We're not reading the same comics.  Maybe he treats Tim like that, but not Dick, Jason, or even Damian.  I never saw "Young Justice".

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> We're not reading the same comics.  Maybe he treats Tim like that, but not Dick, Jason, or even Damian.  I never saw "Young Justice".


Do you mean in comics as they are now, or the entire published history going back to 1940?

Because there are plenty of examples of Bruce being a good mentor/father figure who isn't a complete douche to his charge the further back we go. _Young Justice_ didn't pull it out of nowhere. Tim doesn't get special treatment if a writer knows what they're doing.

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## Pohzee

I don't think Bruce was a good father figure for Dick, but I also don't think that he was a father figure for Dick.

I think most of Bruce's time with Dick as Robin falls into two categories:

1.) The Best Friend/Big Brother relationship that Bruce and Dick had from the Golden Age until the Bronze Age and some modern stories like Scarecrow: Year One

2.) The Stern Boss with an occassional soft side that we see more often in modern Dick-as-Robin stories like Teen Titans: Year One, The Gauntlet, and Robin: Week One

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## oasis1313

> Do you mean in comics as they are now, or the entire published history going back to 1940?
> 
> Because there are plenty of examples of Bruce being a good mentor/father figure who isn't a complete douche to his charge the further back we go. _Young Justice_ didn't pull it out of nowhere. Tim doesn't get special treatment if a writer knows what they're doing.


"--if a writer knows what they're doing" are the key words.  And you are correct that Bruce only started being a douche in the last few decades; he was okay before O'Neil decided to make him Bat-God.

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## Frontier

> Do you mean in comics as they are now, or the entire published history going back to 1940?
> 
> Because there are plenty of examples of Bruce being a good mentor/father figure who isn't a complete douche to his charge the further back we go. _Young Justice_ didn't pull it out of nowhere. Tim doesn't get special treatment if a writer knows what they're doing.


The only way I can say Tim got "special treatment" is because of his situation. 

He was Robin and attached at the hip to Bruce pretty closely during a period where Dick was Nightwing and somewhat estranged from Bruce most of the time, so it's not altogether unsurprising that Bruce was somewhat more warmer towards Tim then he was to Dick at times. Not that Tim didn't get his fair share of negative experiences with Bruce.  

Jason was dead and even when he came back he was an antagonist up until Flashpoint.

Bruce and Damian's didn't start really forming a relationship as father and son until the New 52. 

But all things being equal we then saw Tim's relationship with Bruce get devalued and downplayed after Flashpoint when Tim moved more into the New 52 Teen Titans book.

----------


## oasis1313

> The only way I can say Tim got "special treatment" is because of his situation. 
> 
> He was Robin and attached at the hip to Bruce pretty closely during a period where Dick was Nightwing and somewhat estranged from Bruce most of the time, so it's not altogether unsurprising that Bruce was somewhat more warmer towards Tim then he was to Dick at times. Not that Tim didn't get his fair share of negative experiences with Bruce.  
> 
> Jason was dead and even when he came back he was an antagonist up until Flashpoint.
> 
> Bruce and Damian's didn't start really forming a relationship as father and son until the New 52. 
> 
> But all things being equal we then saw Tim's relationship with Bruce get devalued and downplayed after Flashpoint when Tim moved more into the New 52 Teen Titans book.


No, Tim got special treatment because DC did NOT want to go back to the drawing board after the perceived "failure" of Jason.  When you promise a character will never be killed off, you'd better make darn sure you treat it with kid gloves.  He was attached to Bruce a the hip and the heart because the order came down that Tim (named in honor of Tim Burton) could not be allowed to founder--the rationale was that if Bruce liked him the best, so would the generation of readers who grew up with him.

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## Ascended

> We're not reading the same comics.  Maybe he treats Tim like that, but not Dick, Jason, or even Damian.  I never saw "Young Justice".


I'll admit, I can't speak much for the last few years. I read Snyder, and I'm reading Tynion's Detective (for almost everyone *but* Bruce) and I've trade waited King. And in all of those, the various Robins haven't had much panel time.

But going back across everything I've read or watched with them? There's plenty of examples of Bruce treating the Robins as more than soldiers in a war. Sure, there are periods where Bruce is fighting with Dick (they have had a rocky relationship, no doubt), or ignores Tim, or whatever, but there's examples of the opposite too.

Jason's a slightly different case in that he and Bruce have had a lot of animosity between them since Jason's return. It's hard to have heart-to-heart moments with your former ward when he's shooting bazookas at you.

EDIT: And Young Justice had one of the most balanced takes on Batman I've seen in a long time. He wasn't DKR crazy, he wasn't Adam West ridiculous. He was dark and driven and ran the kids hard, but he wasn't a monster to them in the least either.

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Young Justice Batman was the best, lol. He was a pretty great dad, even if he was an incredibly strict mentor. He stands up for Dick and respects Dick's opinion even when he's still Robin. And he doesn't get randomly idolized as the "Batgod" by writers and editors, which means Dick gets to actually be his equal once he's Nightwing (which therefore means Bruce actually raised his student to be better than he is, which should be the goal of all good teachers and mentors, imo). 

Anyways, I only just recently read Dark Victory, and in that, Bruce sees Dick as his new friend/son/brother and partner, not as some soldier. I mean, we could literally talk about current continuity, too, as Bruce in Nightwing from Rebirth onwards has only ever thought of Dick as family and now as his equal (not exactly something that extends to other books like Titans, tho). There's probably more examples than that, but yeah. "Soldier Robins" are dumb and only serve to damage the Batman brand and characters like Dick.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c40/1802/c4/1ac29b932367.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing #40 variant cover by Yasmine Putri

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## Frontier

> I don't think Bruce was a good father figure for Dick, but I also don't think that he was a father figure for Dick.
> 
> I think most of Bruce's time with Dick as Robin falls into two categories:
> 
> 1.) The Best Friend/Big Brother relationship that Bruce and Dick had from the Golden Age until the Bronze Age and some modern stories like Scarecrow: Year One
> 
> 2.) The Stern Boss with an occassional soft side that we see more often in modern Dick-as-Robin stories like Teen Titans: Year One, The Gauntlet, and Robin: Week One


I think some of that extends into Bruce as a father figure, especially the second.

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## SiegePerilous02

> The only way I can say Tim got "special treatment" is because of his situation. 
> 
> He was Robin and attached at the hip to Bruce pretty closely during a period where Dick was Nightwing and somewhat estranged from Bruce most of the time, so it's not altogether unsurprising that Bruce was somewhat more warmer towards Tim then he was to Dick at times. Not that Tim didn't get his fair share of negative experiences with Bruce.  
> 
> Jason was dead and even when he came back he was an antagonist up until Flashpoint.
> 
> Bruce and Damian's didn't start really forming a relationship as father and son until the New 52. 
> 
> But all things being equal we then saw Tim's relationship with Bruce get devalued and downplayed after Flashpoint when Tim moved more into the New 52 Teen Titans book.


I'm not well versed in that period of comics, but I meant if Tim was treated with kid gloves at that point, it doesn't mean the other two never got it either. Dick and Bruce were (stupidly) going through a rough patch at that point but they had a good working relationship when he was Robin. Pre-Crisis, they hashed out whatever issues they had before Dick even became Nightwing. It's been a while since I read Death in the Family, but Bruce didn't treat Jason like just a solider in that story either from what I recall. Most of the friction between them occurred when Jason came back as Red Hood for obvious reasons.

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## CPSparkles

> I don't.  With the exception of Tim, Bruce appears to view all of his child apprentices as "soldiers" in his war, and treats them like a 4-star general would treat a raw recruit.


Well Tim had LIVING Parents. Bruce had to be careful.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## CPSparkles

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c40/1802/c4/1ac29b932367.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing #40 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


I like this.
I've been loving her variants

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a15/1802/96/9db60ca56022.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/SkylerAnderton/s...165624832?s=17

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## Frontier

I'm so used to Skyler drawing Hal that it's nice to see her diversify and draw Dick  :Smile: .

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## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c40/1802/c4/1ac29b932367.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing #40 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


I thought the red Nightwing costume was back for a second there.

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## dietrich

> I dunno, I know Bruce has his faults but I think looking at it that way takes away from how meaningful Bruce and Dick's relationship is or how significant what Bruce did for Dick was.
> 
> I also know people like to point to all the problematic or less well-adjusted aspects of Batman, and in the animated movie continuity Dick constantly goes on about how terrible being raised by Batman is, but in-spite-that I just don't want to view the relationship that way.  
> 
> I also agree that Dick did for Damian what Bruce did for him and was central to Damian's initial character development.


I don't mean to take away from how meaningful the relationship was and I do acknowledge the significance of Bruce stepping in. Being there and guiding the Dick when his world fell apart.

I think that as someone else here said Bruce did the best he could to his abilities. Abilities which I rate as sub-par. Dick's early years foundation is the key to him being well adjusted and having the social skills required to turn Damian around.

Bruce was a very positive force in Dick's life I just have a hard time seeing him as a good parent.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1802/0b/2e15c90317e8.jpg[/IMG]
Batman and Robin by Doc Shaner

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1802/89/540346fb0b23.jpg[/IMG]
http://avataraandy.tumblr.com/post/1...da-look-at-the

[IMG]https://b.***********/b16/1802/2b/423dde86ecd6.jpg[/IMG]
http://avataraandy.tumblr.com/post/1...les-but-then-i

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

So the DC Ink line is launching a Teen Titans series of Graphic Novels aimed at young adults, starring Dick and the Wolfman 4, which is probably worth looking forward to. Kami Garcia is writing and Gabriel Picolo is on art, and we know the first book is about Raven and is coming in 2019. Also, there are quite a few different Batman books coming, too (of course), so while we probably won't get Nightwing, we might end up getting to see Dick as Robin.

I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.

----------


## dietrich

> So the DC Ink line is launching a Teen Titans series of Graphic Novels aimed at young adults, starring Dick and the Wolfman 4, which is probably worth looking forward to. Kami Garcia is writing and Gabriel Picolo is on art, and we know the first book is about Raven and is coming in 2019. Also, there are quite a few different Batman books coming, too (of course), so while we probably won't get Nightwing, we might end up getting to see Dick as Robin.
> 
> I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.


Looking forward to the TT books Picolo's art teases have been amazing.
That TT lineup is THE Teen Titans so no issues there.

Conflicted on how I feel about Dick as Robin though. I've often lamented the fact that we don't have modern stories with Dick as Robin since his original stuff doesn't really gel with current trends [so Dick as Robin in the batman novels will scratch that itch] but I also feel that any DC ought to be promoting Nightwing. Dicks current persona.

Also I am biased towards the current Robin  :Smile:  so that might be part of the conflict.

I will still be checking em out though.

----------


## Pohzee

> So the





> DC Ink line is launching a Teen Titans series of Graphic Novels aimed at young adults, starring Dick and the Wolfman 4, which is probably worth looking forward to. Kami Garcia is writing and Gabriel Picolo is on art, and we know the first book is about Raven and is coming in 2019. Also, there are quite a few different Batman books coming, too (of course), so while we probably won't get Nightwing, we might end up getting to see Dick as Robin.




I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.
I'll pick up the Titans line for Picolo's art alone. It'll still probably be better written and more contemporary that Abnett's series. And I'd love to see more Dick as Robin stories. I feel as though there are too few modern stories with the Dynamic Duo.




> [IMG]https://b.***********/b21/1802/0b/2e15c90317e8.jpg[/IMG]
> Batman and Robin by Doc Shaner

----------


## nightbird

> Looking forward to the TT books Picolo's art teases have been amazing.
> That TT lineup is THE Teen Titans so no issues there.
> 
> Conflicted on how I feel about Dick as Robin though. I've often lamented the fact that we don't have modern stories with Dick as Robin since his original stuff doesn't really gel with current trends [so Dick as Robin in the batman novels will scratch that itch] but I also feel that any DC ought to be promoting Nightwing. Dicks current persona.
> 
> Also I am biased towards the current Robin  so that might be part of the conflict.
> 
> I will still be checking em out though.


I dunno, I feel like DC should promote Dick as both Robin and Nightwing. Then for general audience it would be easier to understand the concept of Robin, who grew up to be his own man.

----------


## Godlike13

I thought for sure we were gonna get Nightwing in the TV show, but instead they seem to be going with him as Robin. I think the general audience already understands the concept of Robin, but they are never gonna understand the concept of Nightwing if they don't get it out there.

----------


## Frontier

> Doesn't seem like they are promoting Nightwing very much outside of comics though. I thought for sure we were gonna get Nightwing in the TV show, but instead they are going with him as Robin.


I'd be surprised if we don't see the Robin -> Nightwing transition happen at some point on that show.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> So the DC Ink line is launching a Teen Titans series of Graphic Novels aimed at young adults, starring Dick and the Wolfman 4, which is probably worth looking forward to. Kami Garcia is writing and Gabriel Picolo is on art, and we know the first book is about Raven and is coming in 2019. Also, there are quite a few different Batman books coming, too (of course), so while we probably won't get Nightwing, we might end up getting to see Dick as Robin.
> 
> I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.


The artist will be Gabriel Picolo. YES！！！

----------


## ayanestar

> So the DC Ink line is launching a Teen Titans series of Graphic Novels aimed at young adults, starring Dick and the Wolfman 4, which is probably worth looking forward to. Kami Garcia is writing and Gabriel Picolo is on art, and we know the first book is about Raven and is coming in 2019. Also, there are quite a few different Batman books coming, too (of course), so while we probably won't get Nightwing, we might end up getting to see Dick as Robin.
> 
> I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.


I'm always happy to read more stories about Dick as Robin and my little sister loves the Teen Titans so I'll definitely pick it up for her. Gabriel Picolo's art is always a plus.




> I'd be surprised if we don't see the Robin -> Nightwing transition happen at some point on that show.


If the show is a success and actually gets more than one season I'm pretty sure the Robin to Nightwing transition will happen at some point otherwise it would be just a wasted storyline.

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## dietrich

> I dunno, I feel like DC should promote Dick as both Robin and Nightwing. Then for general audience it would be easier to understand the concept of Robin, who grew up to be his own man.


That's the conflict because I see and agree with your point though more than that I want modern story of Dick and Bruce as Batman and Robin. Stuff like YJ is dear to me because it gave us a taste of that however I want it in comic form as well.
However I also strongly feel that Nightwing needs the push more now. 
Dick Grayson is the Iconic Robin who grew up. Yes and I believe majority already know that what with UTRH and replacements now being common knowledge. Now let them get to know the hero he became.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd be surprised if we don't see the Robin -> Nightwing transition happen at some point on that show.


That's how I see it, almost as a way to get the GA ready for the eventual Nightwing movie.

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## oasis1313

Dick Grayson needs more promotion, no matter what he's wearing.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Dick Grayson needs more promotion, no matter what he's wearing.


facts. We just need more Dick. Robin, Nightwing, even a little Batman, just give us all as much Dick as possible. That's how you get the GA ready, because he's already such a fan favourite and just needs more starring roles, not just exposure. So this Teen Titans book is the right idea, imo. 

Also... we don't actually know Dick is Robin, guys. All we know is that this is a YA book, and the 2003 cast seems to be the cast that both Gabriel Picolo and the writer Kami Garcia love, so we can only assume that's the cast we're getting. I mean, she included a gif from that show in her blog post with all 5 members of that cast, so...

Also, nice to see the enthusiasm here. It feels more like an Appreciation thread now. :P

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bruce did ok as a dad, if he didn't Dick and Damian wouldn't have the relationship that they do.





> I thought for sure we were gonna get Nightwing in the TV show, but instead they seem to be going with him as Robin. I think the general audience already understands the concept of Robin, but they are never gonna understand the concept of Nightwing if they don't get it out there.


I think we will see th transformation, since it happen  during his titans days, its not always clear that dick is the robin who became nightwing

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c29/1802/9f/ee0a2697a24b.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Kory 
https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0mZd7Ff-m/

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c29/1802/9f/ee0a2697a24b.jpg[/IMG]
> Dick and Kory 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0mZd7Ff-m/


Do Kory's eyes have pupils?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm always happy to read more stories about Dick as Robin and my little sister loves the Teen Titans so I'll definitely pick it up for her. Gabriel Picolo's art is always a plus.
> 
> 
> If the show is a success and actually gets more than one season I'm pretty sure the Robin to Nightwing transition will happen at some point otherwise it would be just a wasted storyline.


you think it might flop?

----------


## ayanestar

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c29/1802/9f/ee0a2697a24b.jpg[/IMG]
> Dick and Kory 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0mZd7Ff-m/


Thanks for posting. I forgot how much I actually liked these two together lol




> you think it might flop?


I wouldn't say "flop" but we don't really know anything about it yet. We don't know much about this new DC digital service and we don't even know what kind of story we are getting. It's difficult to compare the show to DC's other TV shows. I'm just trying not to get my hopes up until we see a trailer.

----------


## dietrich

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c29/1802/9f/ee0a2697a24b.jpg[/IMG]
> Dick and Kory 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Be0mZd7Ff-m/


This is pretty. Dick working that anime hair.

----------


## dietrich

> If the show is a success and actually gets more than one season I'm pretty sure the Robin to Nightwing transition will happen at some point otherwise it would be just a wasted storyline.


I hope we see the transformation in the first season however if the show doesn't take off then I hope we don't. Don't need anything tainting the Nightwing name before the movie drops.
However with the buzz and the casting thus far I feel good about the show

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Do Kory's eyes have pupils?


They did in the 2003 cartoon, as well as in Teen Titans Go! now. 

Also Dick looks like Akira from Devilman Crybaby and... just... damn. But that looks great anyways.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Have you guys seen the Green Lanterns preview with the superhero dating App? Jessica wonders if Nightwing is on there because he makes all the ladies sweat. It's little comments like that, that make me smile. I want them to be friends so bad!!! Jessica's just so adorable. And yes I meant JUST friends. For now atleast

----------


## Ascended

> Have you guys seen the Green Lanterns preview with the superhero dating App? Jessica wonders if Nightwing is on there because he makes all the ladies sweat. It's little comments like that, that make me smile. I want them to be friends so bad!!! Jessica's just so adorable. And yes I meant JUST friends. For now atleast ��


Dont you dare step on my newfound interest in the Nightwing/Power Girl ship!  :Smile:

----------


## ayanestar

Jessica would be cute lol but I would like them to be friends instead. Anyway I was always a fan of Supergirl and Nightwing but she is too young for him lmao

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Jessica would be cute lol but I would like them to be friends instead. Anyway I was always a fan of Supergirl and Nightwing but she is too young for him lmao


I've been a fan of Powergirl and Supergirl pairings as well. Mainly Supergirl because of her Outsiders interactions with Dick. But what hurts me worst is that Dick doesn't have his SUPERFamily bestie like the rest of his family. You can't really say Clark because he very much so written as his Favorite Uncle and Fav Nephew not Best Friend. Which makes it all the more mind boggling why Dick hasn't cameo'd in Supersons yet!!! While the Kara & Dick being successors to the World's Greatest would ideally make them closer, it's better marketing to throw her with Batgirl.

----------


## nightbird

> Dont you dare step on my newfound interest in the Nightwing/Power Girl ship!


Something interesting happened between them?)

----------


## oasis1313

> Something interesting happened between them?)


Power Girl is chestier than Supergirl.  And neither of them would need an image transducer.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I've been a fan of Powergirl and Supergirl pairings as well. Mainly Supergirl because of her Outsiders interactions with Dick. But what hurts me worst is that Dick doesn't have his SUPERFamily bestie like the rest of his family. You can't really say Clark because he very much so written as his Favorite Uncle and Fav Nephew not Best Friend. Which makes it all the more mind boggling why Dick hasn't cameo'd in Supersons yet!!! While the Kara & Dick being successors to the World's Greatest would ideally make them closer, it's better marketing to throw her with Batgirl.


he has a WonderBuddy

----------


## ayanestar

> I've been a fan of Powergirl and Supergirl pairings as well. Mainly Supergirl because of her Outsiders interactions with Dick. But what hurts me worst is that Dick doesn't have his SUPERFamily bestie like the rest of his family. You can't really say Clark because he very much so written as his Favorite Uncle and Fav Nephew not Best Friend. Which makes it all the more mind boggling why Dick hasn't cameo'd in Supersons yet!!! While the Kara & Dick being successors to the World's Greatest would ideally make them closer, it's better marketing to throw her with Batgirl.


I'm actually fine with Dick sharing Clark with Bruce lmao Dick already has a best friend but it would be nice to see Dick interacting with the Superman Family? I'm still waiting for Dick to appear in Super Sons lol I want him to meet Jon.

Oh and this reminds me of a fanart (there is also a part with Tim + Kon and Jason + Bizarro but I can only add 3 pictures lol):

----------


## Ascended

> Something interesting happened between them?)


No. I don't think they've even seen each other since the New52. And they don't have much history to begin with.

But last week I decided its a ship I'm sailing anyway. And Im gonna be obnoxious about this until DC hears my demands!

Or, you know, until I get tired of it.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Have you guys seen the Green Lanterns preview with the superhero dating App? Jessica wonders if Nightwing is on there because he makes all the ladies sweat. It's little comments like that, that make me smile. I want them to be friends so bad!!! Jessica's just so adorable. And yes I meant JUST friends. For now atleast


the preview reminds me of this :Big Grin: 
IMG_1981.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

yeah nightwing should be a whole lot closer to the superfam then he is. With makes him and powergirl all the better because when she comes back dc should have her be the nightwing of the superfam so dick can hang with his extended fam alot more.

also with the titans being a legacy team Dc should just go all out and have a 6 man team of of the. all new titans with Nightwing, Flash(wally), Powergirl, Donna troy,GL(Jessica) and Cybrog with maybe a open 7 spot. have them be the new generation big 6 or 7 and the JL grow in to the JLU.

----------


## WonderNight

> Have you guys seen the Green Lanterns preview with the superhero dating App? Jessica wonders if Nightwing is on there because he makes all the ladies sweat. It's little comments like that, that make me smile. I want them to be friends so bad!!! Jessica's just so adorable. And yes I meant JUST friends. For now atleast ��


hey my girl powergirl made a cameo in the preview. my babe coming back :Embarrassment:

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b19/1802/d7/7966296b4521.jpg[/IMG]

Batman: White Knight #6 cover by Sean Gordon Murphy

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d10/1802/10/2030936878e6.jpg[/IMG]
Jessica’s opinion about Nightwing

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> [IMG]https://d.***********/d10/1802/10/2030936878e6.jpg[/IMG]
> Jessica’s opinion about Nightwing


the 'gruff-jerk exterior' description makes me wonder has DC changed Nightwing's characterization from smiling daredevil to batman-lite? I thought Dick would be more like superman when he interacted with other superheroes.

Edited: read the panels in the wrong order. she's talking about Simon.

----------


## Dzetoun

> the 'gruff-jerk exterior' description makes me wonder has DC changed Nightwing's characterization from smiling daredevil to batman-lite? I thought Dick would be more like superman when he interacted with other superheroes.


I believe Jessica is talking about Simon in that particular panel.

----------


## ayanestar

Jessica is adorable lol I really want her to meet Nightwing  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b19/1802/d7/7966296b4521.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> Batman: White Knight #6 cover by Sean Gordon Murphy


Can Batgirl get this costume in the main universe please? 



> [IMG]https://d.***********/d10/1802/10/2030936878e6.jpg[/IMG]
> Jessica’s opinion about Nightwing


I guess they're really running with Black Lightning as a younger guy if Jessica is open enough to him being her match.

----------


## ayanestar

Anyone else a fan of Go-Go Dancer Grayson? lmao  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I believe Jessica is talking about Simon in that particular panel.


you are right. I read the panels in the wrong order :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Anyone else a fan of Go-Go Dancer Grayson? lmao


Yes, lmao. It was actually a great scene and caught me off guard, I shared it with some of my friends but... they seemed to want to talk around it, I can't blame them since they're not into comics. I actually only realized later, but Humphries has specifically been saying we'd see more Kid Delicious, and not Wallace, in this issue, and he really delivered on that, lol. I've seen a couple people excited on my Twitter timeline as well (and some that are not as happy, but you know, opinions). 

It's weird but that scene made me really want a GTA/Yakuza/Persona-type Nightwing game with this as one of the mini-games or something, tbh. With all the casinos and the Justice Tree and everything kept in from the old Bludhaven, the city finally has enough of a unique feel that I think it could actually work as a setting for a video game now. It'd probably need to be fleshed out some more, but it's starting to get there.

Edit: Poor Jessica... I mean I don't blame Seeley or anything, but I mean Nightwing and Black Lightning and all the teasing now with Simon... it's just so weird knowing what Priest made her do in this issue and all the stuff with Barry in previous JL issues from Hitch... I mean, from a reader's perspective, *spoilers:*
you'd basically see her wanting to get matched with Nightwing, and then kissing Batman in JL, all on the same Wednesday. And that's paired with Bruce still being engaged and reuniting with Selina in Batman, too. Just all sorts weird.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## ayanestar

> Yes, lmao. It was actually a great scene and caught me off guard, I shared it with some of my friends but... they seemed to want to talk around it, I can't blame them since they're not into comics. I actually only realized later, but Humphries has specifically been saying we'd see more Kid Delicious, and not Wallace, in this issue, and he really delivered on that, lol. I've seen a couple people excited on my Twitter timeline as well (and some that are not as happy, but you know, opinions). 
> 
> It's weird but that scene made me really want a GTA/Yakuza/Persona-type Nightwing game with this as one of the mini-games or something, tbh. With all the casinos and the Justice Tree and everything kept in from the old Bludhaven, the city finally has enough of a unique feel that I think it could actually work as a setting for a video game now. It'd probably need to be fleshed out some more, but it's starting to get there.
> 
> Edit: Poor Jessica... I mean I don't blame Seeley or anything, but I mean Nightwing and Black Lightning and all the teasing now with Simon... it's just so weird knowing what Priest made her do in this issue and all the stuff with Barry in previous JL issues from Hitch... I mean, from a reader's perspective, *spoilers:*
> you'd basically see her wanting to get matched with Nightwing, and then kissing Batman in JL, all on the same Wednesday. And that's paired with Bruce still being engaged and reuniting with Selina in Batman, too. Just all sorts weird.
> *end of spoilers*


I always love these silly moments when the writers decide to put it some random fanservice moments for fans lmao I mean his face looks hilarious I couldn't even take it seriously, which made the whole scene even funnier.  But I've already seen a poor soul on Batman News being attacked for making a funny comment about it lol people are really easily offended by anything nowadays. Anyway I'm not 100% on board with the story yet but it's not bad and the art looks good. I guess Dick could have it worse. Also I'm on board with a Yakuza-type story, not sure about a game maybe as an Elseworlds story? It would be amazing  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I agree with you about Jessica. *spoilers:*
She is really getting a horrible treatment lately, seriously the scene wasn't necessary at all. It was gross and disrespectful towards all involved people - Bruce, Jessica and Selina. She is treated like some kind of babe give her a break. Also Bruce is about to get married and here you are making him cheat on his future wife.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## oasis1313

It kinda looks like Batgirl is wearing Ugg Boot house slippers.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've been a fan of Powergirl and Supergirl pairings as well. Mainly Supergirl because of her Outsiders interactions with Dick. But what hurts me worst is that Dick doesn't have his SUPERFamily bestie like the rest of his family. You can't really say Clark because he very much so written as his Favorite Uncle and Fav Nephew not Best Friend. Which makes it all the more mind boggling why Dick hasn't cameo'd in Supersons yet!!! While the Kara & Dick being successors to the World's Greatest would ideally make them closer, it's better marketing to throw her with Batgirl.


If Power Girl will ever be fully incorporated into the main DC Universe I always thought she could be Dick's counterpart.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d06/1802/a3/06734714b4ee.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Be74fl9lZng/

----------


## yohyoi

Dick was a stripper! My life is complete!

----------


## yohyoi

> I hope you guys will share books like this with some of your younger family members and acquaintances! I know I will be, as it'll be books like the upcoming Mera that'll help grow the market and get new fans reading.
> I'll pick up the Titans line for Picolo's art alone. It'll still probably be better written and more contemporary that Abnett's series. And I'd love to see more Dick as Robin stories. I feel as though there are too few modern stories with the Dynamic Duo.


If it is anything like the 2003 cartoon, I am definitely buying more than one.

----------


## Ivy_b

> you are right. I read the panels in the wrong order


So did I, I was really scratching my head at that Dick characterization.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b17/1802/2a/f295c5f8ddcb.jpg[/IMG]
http://vieryplus.tumblr.com/post/170629091476/boys

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b17/1802/2a/f295c5f8ddcb.jpg[/IMG]
> http://vieryplus.tumblr.com/post/170629091476/boys


It's always nice when someone remembers Garth  :Smile: .

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b17/1802/2a/f295c5f8ddcb.jpg[/IMG]
> http://vieryplus.tumblr.com/post/170629091476/boys


These are so sweet.  I miss Garth's curly hair.  Dick always had the best legs in the DC Universe.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://twitter.com/buddboetticher/s...88394857574400

Go vote now
Taylor Lautner I will pray for you

----------


## yash

> https://twitter.com/buddboetticher/s...88394857574400
> 
> Go vote now
> Taylor Lautner I will pray for you


 already did, i voted for martial artist, what about you?

----------


## Pohzee

Voted once for expressive actor and once for known actor. I don't actually want or need a known actor (other than Zac Efron) but it was the closest option to "good looks."

I mean, you can stunt double a martial arts scene, so that doesn't really matter. And I really don't think that Dick being Romani is an integral part of his character or his heritage.

----------


## Rac7d*

> already did, i voted for martial artist, what about you?


Vulnerable , emotional, 
the romani thing doesnt mean much to me
Dick could be played by a native american, asian i woundlt care

----------


## Rac7d*

> Voted once for expressive actor and once for known actor. I don't actually want or need a known actor (other than Zac Efron) but it was the closest option to "good looks."
> 
> I mean, you can stunt double a martial arts scene, so that doesn't really matter. And I really don't think that Dick being Romani is an integral part of his character or his heritage.


how can it be intergral to his heritage when it so recent  an addition in a 70+ year existence

----------


## Pohzee

> how can it be intergral to his heritage when it so recent  an addition in a 70+ year existence


Exactly. Without relaunching a debate, I think that Dick's English heritage that was overwritten by Devin Grayson is just as valid as her forced retcons and racist stereotypes. Seeley did some good things with it in Better Than Batman, but that doesn't make it an essential part of the character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Exactly. Without relaunching a debate, I think that Dick's English heritage that was overwritten by Devin Grayson is just as valid as her forced retcons and racist stereotypes. Seeley did some good things with it in Better Than Batman, but that doesn't make it an essential part of the character.


also i dont want to rule anyone out to play him right now

----------


## yash

Uh oh somebody made a #keepnightwingromani on that twitter poll

----------


## nightbird

> https://twitter.com/buddboetticher/s...88394857574400
> 
> Go vote now


... Strange poll.

----------


## yohyoi

> Uh oh somebody made a #keepnightwingromani on that twitter poll


Uh oh... Tumblr is readying their pitchforks.

----------


## nightbird

> Uh oh... Tumblr is readying their pitchforks.


He will try to please them with his casting choice though. I feel like Titans’ Nightwing will be closer to Dick Grayson in comics, compared to his movie counterpart.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c31/1802/c9/8e27e516992b.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Badou

I'd want someone that can sell a movie. 

I still have my doubts that this movie is actually happening and the movie is probably way down on the priority list for them in terms of importance. So it is going to have a big hill to climb. Not just from the general public gaining an interest in Nightwing, as the casual viewer probably has no idea who or what a Nightwing is, but also the studio thinking it is something worth pushing a lot and not something they will try to make as cheaply as they can. 

Like I can see them limiting the budget and deciding to put the movie on their new DC streaming service instead of putting it in theaters if it gets made. Maybe that could happen. It just hasn't registered with me that DC/WB will actually push Nightwing as a brand after all this time with a full feature movie out of nowhere when there has been zero built up in the DCEU for it.

----------


## yash

> I'd want someone that can sell a movie. 
> 
> I still have my doubts that this movie is actually happening and the movie is probably way down on the priority list for them in terms of importance. So it is going to have a big hill to climb. Not just from the general public gaining an interest in Nightwing, as the casual viewer probably has no idea who or what a Nightwing is, but also the studio thinking it is something worth pushing a lot and not something they will try to make as cheaply as they can. 
> 
> Like I can see them limiting the budget and deciding to put the movie on their new DC streaming service instead of putting it in theaters if it gets made. Maybe that could happen. It just hasn't registered with me that DC/WB will actually push Nightwing as a brand after all this time with a full feature movie out of nowhere when there has been zero built up in the DCEU for it.


 i think Hollywood in general has gone balls deep when it comes to blockbuster movies so it might be possible that in light of WB's unsuccessful attempst at other movies like tarzan and the like they are cutting back on other blockbusteresque movies and prioritise comic book movies because they are a safer bet

----------


## Badou

> i think Hollywood in general has gone balls deep when it comes to blockbuster movies so it might be possible that in light of WB's unsuccessful attempst at other movies like tarzan and the like they are cutting back on other blockbusteresque movies and prioritise comic book movies because they are a safer bet


But when you look at the comic book movies they are focusing on they are movies that are based on their big characters they push all the time or the characters that have been successful in other movies already. Batman, Wonder Woman, or Flash. They even are putting out a Joker solo movie, which is separate from the DCEU's Joker who will be in a movie with Harley Quinn. And Harley will be in 2 other movies now including Suicide Squad 2 after how much money the first one made. These are all characters DC and WB promotes a TON.

Even an Aquaman they focused on making a priority when the New 52 hit. They had Johns take over the character and turn him into something they could adapt. They just haven't really done that with Nightwing ever so it just feels weird to me that they are going to make a Nightwing movie when I haven't seen DC/WB try and build up the Nightwing brand. Like putting this A-List creative team on the title or make a Nightwing solo animated movie. He's always second to Batman or Robin in the animated movies or video games. 

I know he gets appearances here and there in other media but there just hasn't ever been that killer Nightwing appearance that sells the character to the casual fan that gets his brand out there. So going from where he is to having his own solo movie just feels strange to me. Maybe the Titans show will cover his transition from Robin to Nightwing if it does well, but even with that he is still going to be mainly Robin. 

I guess I just can't believe that Nightwing will actually get a movie like this but it seems to be happening, lol. I'm thrilled if it actually happens of course but something about it still hasn't quite registered with me for some reason.

----------


## yash

> But when you look at the comic book movies they are focusing on they are movies that are based on their big characters they push all the time or the characters that have been successful in other movies already. Batman, Wonder Woman, or Flash. They even are putting out a Joker solo movie, which is separate from the DCEU's Joker who will be in a movie with Harley Quinn. And Harley will be in 2 other movies now including Suicide Squad 2 after how much money the first one made. These are all characters DC and WB promotes a TON.
> 
> Even an Aquaman they focused on making a priority when the New 52 hit. They had Johns take over the character and turn him into something they could adapt. They just haven't really done that with Nightwing ever so it just feels weird to me that they are going to make a Nightwing movie when I haven't seen DC/WB try and build up the Nightwing brand. Like putting this A-List creative team on the title or make a Nightwing solo animated movie. He's always second to Batman or Robin in the animated movies or video games. 
> 
> I know he gets appearances here and there in other media but there just hasn't ever been that killer Nightwing appearance that sells the character to the casual fan that gets his brand out there. So going from where he is to having his own solo movie just feels strange to me. Maybe the Titans show will cover his transition from Robin to Nightwing if it does well, but even with that he is still going to be mainly Robin. 
> 
> I guess I just can't believe that Nightwing will actually get a movie like this but it seems to be happening, lol. I'm thrilled if it actually happens of course but something about it still hasn't quite registered with me for some reason.


 i feel you, we have a nightwing comic book only because it sells not because they want to push him, the characters they want to push are aquaman, red hood, cyborg, deathstroke and batgirl because no matter how piss poor their sales go they still keep publishing them, i'm still surprised we have yet to get a deathstroke film announced or even get an appreance and yet we have a sirens film, a joker film and a nightwing film,

----------


## Badou

> i feel you, we have a nightwing comic book only because it sells not because they want to push him, the characters they want to push are aquaman, red hood, cyborg, deathstroke and batgirl because no matter how piss poor their sales go they still keep publishing them, i'm still surprised we have yet to get a deathstroke film announced or even get an appreance and yet we have a sirens film, a joker film and a nightwing film,


No, they have announced a Deathstroke movie. It is being directed by Gareth Evans who directed The Raid, or at least it is heavily rumored. Deathstroke is a perfect example of what I'm talking about because they have been pushing the character a ton, like you said, to get the brand out there for a number of years now. He's been a focus for them in comics and in other media. From comics, TV, animated movies, video games and he even had a cameo appearance in the Justice League DCEU movie that got cut, but it shows how they want to push the character and his brand. They've never really done that for Nightwing. 

As for Red Hood I'm surprised they don't push him more because he is very popular with the casual fans. He has two of those "killer" appearances I'm talking about in other media that sold the character to the public in the Under the Red Hood movie and the Arkham game. Nightwing has appeared in a lot more things, but I don't think the character has had that piece of other media that you can point to yet like with Red Hood despite those numerous appearances.

----------


## Moonwix

Oh boy... he still at the stage of getting a script approved . This news means nothing. I don't think there would be a nightwing movie.  I think this director is only interested in a nightwing movie but I feel WB actually are thinking instead about making a Titans movie. WB is already investing millions of dollars to promote the Titans  brand via tv show and an animated movie.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He will try to please them with his casting choice though. I feel like Titans Nightwing will be closer to Dick Grayson in comics, compared to his movie counterpart.


its a small faction the loudest is not always the largest, its jsut the one that try to vote 100x to cheat

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I voted for martial artist. I hated all the fight scenes in the Christopher Nolan Bat movies. It was obvious Batman couldn't move in the suit and the fight with Bane was embarrassing. It really obvious with Black Widow when they switch to her stunt double. It takes me out of the movie tbh. All the baddies are afraid of that guy?! Oooh there's two Black Widows!

----------


## Elmo

> Oh boy... he still at the stage of getting a script approved . This news means nothing. I don't think there would be a nightwing movie.  I think this director is only interested in a nightwing movie but I feel WB actually are thinking instead about making a Titans movie. WB is already investing millions of dollars to promote the Titans  brand via tv show and an animated movie.


He was chosen to direct this movie due to the success of Lego Batman. It just so happens to be something he is passionate about. Now he just has to produce something the studio will want to make. A Nightwing movie IS happening, the only question is whether or not it will be Chris McKay's vehicle or the studio's. WB is not making a Titans movie, especially not now with the TV show coming.

----------


## Moonwix

> He was chosen to direct this movie due to the success of Lego Batman. It just so happens to be something he is passionate about. Now he just has to produce something the studio will want to make. A Nightwing movie IS happening, the only question is whether or not it will be Chris McKay's vehicle or the studio's. WB is not making a Titans movie, especially not now with the TV show coming.


Yes, the Titans movie is not coming out now of course. I was just speculating that WB is already promoting the brand. If the show is successful there could be a movie in the future.
As for nightwing movie. the project was announced a year ago and 2 dc movie slates as been presented to the public since then, and nightwing was not in any of them. i am still not convinced its going to happen as much as i want it to.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I don't really care about the ethnicity of who they cast, so long as they're stupid attractive and charming and can pull off the moves. 

Given that its a big studio production and the character himself is white, I suspect casting will reflect that.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

I am still waiting for the official announcement of Nightwing movie from WB……

----------


## Frontier

> I'd want someone that can sell a movie. 
> 
> I still have my doubts that this movie is actually happening and the movie is probably way down on the priority list for them in terms of importance. So it is going to have a big hill to climb. Not just from the general public gaining an interest in Nightwing, as the casual viewer probably has no idea who or what a Nightwing is, but also the studio thinking it is something worth pushing a lot and not something they will try to make as cheaply as they can. 
> 
> Like I can see them limiting the budget and deciding to put the movie on their new DC streaming service instead of putting it in theaters if it gets made. Maybe that could happen. It just hasn't registered with me that DC/WB will actually push Nightwing as a brand after all this time with a full feature movie out of nowhere when there has been zero built up in the DCEU for it.


The DCEU is such a spastic mess that it's really hard to gauge what movies are a priority and which ones actually have any forward momentum going for their production.

McKay seems pretty confident and open about the production process which is more then we have for a lot of other DCEU movies at the moment. 

I don't think Nightwing should be that hard a sell, given all the things he has going for him and they can lean into the "original Robin" part of his character.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b07/1802/8e/aa5d21b84c42.jpg[/IMG]
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/17...ickjay-fan-art

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d39/1802/f7/0b83b0ffbcdc.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Wally
http://mochi-dayo.tumblr.com/post/17...ickie-wall-man

----------


## Rac7d*

So deathstroke will be robin arch nemisis in the teen titans go movie in july

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Ascended

Wow, martial artist is winning by a lot.

Really, social media? Casting a martial artist worked out *soooooo* well for the Star Wars prequels!

Just hire a good actor who can sell the character. Stunt doubles and cgi and the months of grueling training before photography will take care of the action sequences.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> So deathstroke will be robin arch nemisis in the teen titans go movie in july


Source? That's a nice carryover from the 2003 cartoon, at least.

----------


## oasis1313

> Source? That's a nice carryover from the 2003 cartoon, at least.


Is the Robin going to be Dick or Tim?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Is the Robin going to be Dick or Tim?


I don't think we've ever seen a group of Teen Titans with a Robin that wasn't Dick or Damian in other media. And even then, we've seen Nightwing both times Damian had his appearances in the Teen Titans movies. 

I think it's safe to assume that anything pulling from Wolfman/Perez, i.e. 2003's Teen Titans cartoon, live-action Titans, the DC Ink Teen Titans, etc. is always going to star Dick as Robin first. 

But yeah, I've looked around, but I haven't found a single source for Deathstroke appearing in that Teen Titans Go! movie...

----------


## oasis1313

> 


A badass martial artist who is also vulnerable and emotional.

----------


## KurtW95

> 


I vote for a good actor who looks like Dick. So, Dylan O’Brien with blue contacts.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick Grayson should be the handsomest guy they can find.

----------


## nightbird

> Wow, martial artist is winning by a lot.
> 
> Really, social media? Casting a martial artist worked out *soooooo* well for the Star Wars prequels!
> 
> Just hire a good actor who can sell the character. Stunt doubles and cgi and the months of grueling training before photography will take care of the action sequences.


This poll made me doubt that Chris McKay knows what he’s doing...

----------


## jbmasta

> So deathstroke will be robin arch nemisis in the teen titans go movie in july


He could kill the idiots, I would cheer him on.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is the Robin going to be Dick or Tim?


It always Dick man that why I posted it here




> I don't think we've ever seen a group of Teen Titans with a Robin that wasn't Dick or Damian in other media. And even then, we've seen Nightwing both times Damian had his appearances in the Teen Titans movies. 
> 
> I think it's safe to assume that anything pulling from Wolfman/Perez, i.e. 2003's Teen Titans cartoon, live-action Titans, the DC Ink Teen Titans, etc. is always going to star Dick as Robin first. 
> 
> But yeah, I've looked around, but I haven't found a single source for Deathstroke appearing in that Teen Titans Go! movie...


Did everyone forget Slade =Deathstroke

----------


## Rac7d*

> This poll made me doubt that Chris McKay knows what he’s doing...


why so ? He seems invested

----------


## yohyoi

> He could kill the idiots, I would cheer him on.


We know the idiots will win. TTG stupidity never ends. Still funny at times like when they know they suck.

----------


## yohyoi

> why so ? He seems invested


WB doesn't have a good track record. It's like 50-50 or worse. I'm happy DC is acknowledging Dick's existence; but there's a chance they ruin him. God knows they tried before.

----------


## nightbird

> why so ? He seems invested


“Recognizable star, Romani or badass martial artist” hardly something that should be considered as “the most important qualities” in casting Nightwing. And it’s strange to ask about it fans (especially on Twitter). Majority usually bad advisers.

----------


## Comic Book Addict

Starting to read through Nightwing Rebirth, beginning with Nightwing #21. (I read the first several issues when they came out.)

It was a good issue, with Nightwing teaming up with Wally and having a guy's night out interrupted by a wannabe criminal.

----------


## Rac7d*

> WB doesn't have a good track record. It's like 50-50 or worse. I'm happy DC is acknowledging Dick's existence; but there's a chance they ruin him. God knows they tried before.


The lego batman movie was like on point behind Wonder Woman
it was a pretty good film

----------


## Frontier

> 


I doubt Dick's Romani heritage will actually play a factor in the casting or story but I guess it's interesting that McKay is aware of it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I doubt Dick's Romani heritage will actually play a factor in the casting or story but I guess it's interesting that McKay is aware of it.


He is half romani and white passing so the anger in the comments is weird i feel bad for mckay

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Recognizable star, Romani or badass martial artist hardly something that should be considered as the most important qualities in casting Nightwing. And its strange to ask about it fans (especially on Twitter). Majority usually bad advisers.


wat

I don't know about recognizable star, but being Romani and knowing martial arts are incredibly important qualities, especially the latter. I don't want Nightwing if all we're getting is shit like Nolan and Bale's Batman. That looked disgusting then, and it'll look even worse now as Dick is supposed to be the acrobatic hero.

Ultimately, we need an actor who can sell Dick's emotions and charm, and can make the action scenes look good. Being Romani would just be a great addition to his character and would help push Dick as a progressive hero, so I don't see why it shouldn't be important (even if it isn't necessary). 

And we also have posters in this very thread who want the actor to be recognizable so that we can get a few more attached names to the movie, and one they could realistically sell the movie using. 

So I really don't see how any of this shows McKay is making a mistake or something. I mean, he said so himself on Twitter: he could do this all by himself, but he wanted to interact with fans to make sure his Nightwing was the same Nightwing the fans want.

----------


## Badou

Him being Romani is not important. It really shouldn't even be considered until after everything else has been dealt with, imo. Until Rebirth there was basically one story about him being Romani and it was not good.  I don't get why people want to act like him being Romani is suddenly this important part of the character when it has been absent or irrelevant for nearly all of the character's 75+ years of existence. I don't mind the Romani thing but Dick would still be exactly the same if it never existed and that is key. 

Obviously the most important thing is you need someone that can act and looks like the character. This person also being a known actor is a big plus because he can help sell the movie as I don't think Nightwing or McKay are big enough names to sell it alone. Nightwing isn't like a Wonder Woman where you can cast a somewhat unknown and the property carries the movie regardless of who the lead is. Then things like being athletic and being able to do some stunts themselves is important. Martial arts experience is optional imo as you have stunt people to do more complicated things as shown in Deadpool and Captain America. These are the things that are important.

----------


## ayanestar

Dick's Romani heritage is in no way number one priority for the character. Most of the people voting for it and even part of the fanbase that emphasizes his Romani roots don't seem to understand how brief he was Romani in canon. Devin Grayson is the writer responsible for this retcon, who was culturally ignorant and has stereotyped the culture and the fandom needs to stop praising her for it seriously the tumblr and twitter community has taken Dick’s ethnic background severely out of context. He isn't even full Romani and it had no impact on his stories. I do think Dick being part Romani is interesting so don't minsunderstand me but the only writer who ever did something interesting with his Romani roots was Seeley. Do these people even realise that they are pushing a stereotype themselves? Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani. I don't see how reinforcing stereotypes will help the perception of the Romani people. Also I don't understand why people are upset about casting a white actor because Romanians are caucasians, the only thing that matters is the culture but again it has no impact on Dick's character and even if DC's decides to include his part Romani roots in the movie it would be only in the introduction when he lost his parents because otherwise it's not important. 

Anyway I personally don't care who they cast as long as the actor understands Dick's characters and his charm. I also think the actor should be able to do most of the stunts on his own or at least part of it because I usually notice the stunt double in movies and it's really annoying. However the last part is rather a personal problem of mine I know most people can't tell the difference between the actor and his stunt double in movies.

----------


## Aahz

> Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani.


Even Devin Grayson called him that.

----------


## K Nikk

I would think instead of martial arts background an acrobatic background would be better (gymnast or something).  There is a loopiness to Dick's martial arts it seems sometimes that relates back to the acrobatic tendencies, and it would be cool if the fights or his other movements on screen can show that kind of prior training.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## The Darknight Detective

> Dick's Romani heritage is in no way number one priority for the character. Most of the people voting for it and even part of the fanbase that emphasizes his Romani roots don't seem to understand how brief he was Romani in canon. Devin Grayson is the writer responsible for this retcon, who was culturally ignorant and has stereotyped the culture and the fandom needs to stop praising her for it seriously the tumblr and twitter community has taken Dick’s ethnic background severely out of context. He isn't even full Romani and it had no impact on his stories. I do think Dick being part Romani is interesting so don't minsunderstand me but the only writer who ever did something interesting with his Romani roots was Seeley. Do these people even realise that they are pushing a stereotype themselves? Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani. I don't see how reinforcing stereotypes will help the perception of the Romani people. Also I don't understand why people are upset about casting a white actor because Romanians are caucasians, the only thing that matters is the culture but again it has no impact on Dick's character and even if DC's decides to include his part Romani roots in the movie it would be only in the introduction when he lost his parents because otherwise it's not important. 
> 
> Anyway I personally don't care who they cast as long as the actor understands Dick's characters and his charm. I also think the actor should be able to do most of the stunts on his own or at least part of it because I usually notice the stunt double in movies and it's really annoying. However the last part is rather a personal problem of mine I know most people can't tell the difference between the actor and his stunt double in movies.


I agree with all of this.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's Romani heritage is in no way number one priority for the character. Most of the people voting for it and even part of the fanbase that emphasizes his Romani roots don't seem to understand how brief he was Romani in canon. Devin Grayson is the writer responsible for this retcon, who was culturally ignorant and has stereotyped the culture and the fandom needs to stop praising her for it seriously the tumblr and twitter community has taken Dick’s ethnic background severely out of context. He isn't even full Romani and it had no impact on his stories. I do think Dick being part Romani is interesting so don't minsunderstand me but the only writer who ever did something interesting with his Romani roots was Seeley. Do these people even realise that they are pushing a stereotype themselves? Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani. I don't see how reinforcing stereotypes will help the perception of the Romani people. Also I don't understand why people are upset about casting a white actor because Romanians are caucasians, the only thing that matters is the culture but again it has no impact on Dick's character and even if DC's decides to include his part Romani roots in the movie it would be only in the introduction when he lost his parents because otherwise it's not important. 
> 
> Anyway I personally don't care who they cast as long as the actor understands Dick's characters and his charm. I also think the actor should be able to do most of the stunts on his own or at least part of it because I usually notice the stunt double in movies and it's really annoying. However the last part is rather a personal problem of mine I know most people can't tell the difference between the actor and his stunt double in movies.


The most famous Romanian chracter is anastasia the gypsie from huntchback of notre damne and she  is dark skinned and that is the extent of their knowledge on Romanians

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> The most famous Romanian chracter is anastasia the gypsie from huntchback of notre damne and she  is dark skinned and that is the extent of their knowledge on Romanians


The first one I recall seeing in a movie was Ilonka (Elena Verdugo) in _House of Frankenstein_ back in '71 when I was five.


Yeah, she was a stereotype, but boy was she cute!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Ascended

> This poll made me doubt that Chris McKay knows what he’s doing...


I very much doubt he'd frame his choice around an informal fan poll on twitter. 

It's likely 95% just for fun, 5% to gauge how Nightwing fans will respond. 

He may also be using these results to inform other, more important decisions. If a lot of people vote for the Romani thing, then that's an aspect that might get worked into the backstory more than it would otherwise (scripts are always being tweaked, even during filming). If a lot of people vote for a big Hollywood name, then perhaps that shows that there's not a ton of faith that the character alone can push the movie and needs a bigger name attached, either an actor in the role itself or a cameo by a big name like Batman or Superman. A big "emotional, vulnerable" vote might indicate that audiences don't want the brooding badass as much as the nice pretty boy, and McKay might shift the tonal balance of the movie to match.

But odds are this is just for fun. 

And I give him points for mentioning the Romani thing at all. Seriously, that's such a non-issue for Dick it wouldn't change a single aspect of his character if it had never been brought up. To even know that about the character reveals a degree of research that not every director bothers with.

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, i don't think that any proffesional worth his sal would use a twitter poll to make a decission, as Ascended said his probably just seeing what the most vocal fans want to see and that migth influence in some of the stories decission.

----------


## byrd156

> Dick's Romani heritage is in no way number one priority for the character. Most of the people voting for it and even part of the fanbase that emphasizes his Romani roots don't seem to understand how brief he was Romani in canon. Devin Grayson is the writer responsible for this retcon, who was culturally ignorant and has stereotyped the culture and the fandom needs to stop praising her for it seriously the tumblr and twitter community has taken Dicks ethnic background severely out of context. He isn't even full Romani and it had no impact on his stories. I do think Dick being part Romani is interesting so don't minsunderstand me but the only writer who ever did something interesting with his Romani roots was Seeley. Do these people even realise that they are pushing a stereotype themselves? Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani. I don't see how reinforcing stereotypes will help the perception of the Romani people. Also I don't understand why people are upset about casting a white actor because Romanians are caucasians, the only thing that matters is the culture but again it has no impact on Dick's character and even if DC's decides to include his part Romani roots in the movie it would be only in the introduction when he lost his parents because otherwise it's not important. 
> 
> Anyway I personally don't care who they cast as long as the actor understands Dick's characters and his charm. I also think the actor should be able to do most of the stunts on his own or at least part of it because I usually notice the stunt double in movies and it's really annoying. However the last part is rather a personal problem of mine I know most people can't tell the difference between the actor and his stunt double in movies.


Very well said.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick's Romani heritage is in no way number one priority for the character. Most of the people voting for it and even part of the fanbase that emphasizes his Romani roots don't seem to understand how brief he was Romani in canon. Devin Grayson is the writer responsible for this retcon, who was culturally ignorant and has stereotyped the culture and the fandom needs to stop praising her for it seriously the tumblr and twitter community has taken Dicks ethnic background severely out of context. He isn't even full Romani and it had no impact on his stories. I do think Dick being part Romani is interesting so don't minsunderstand me but the only writer who ever did something interesting with his Romani roots was Seeley. Do these people even realise that they are pushing a stereotype themselves? Many of the traveling circuses recruits were called "gypsies", which is a slur for Romani. I don't see how reinforcing stereotypes will help the perception of the Romani people. Also I don't understand why people are upset about casting a white actor because Romanians are caucasians, the only thing that matters is the culture but again it has no impact on Dick's character and even if DC's decides to include his part Romani roots in the movie it would be only in the introduction when he lost his parents because otherwise it's not important. 
> 
> Anyway I personally don't care who they cast as long as the actor understands Dick's characters and his charm. I also think the actor should be able to do most of the stunts on his own or at least part of it because I usually notice the stunt double in movies and it's really annoying. However the last part is rather a personal problem of mine I know most people can't tell the difference between the actor and his stunt double in movies.


The whole Romani thing isn't such a big deal.  People from Romania--or "gypsies", whatever--are Caucasians.  Dick has been blue-eyed and never particularly on the "swarthy" side since before World War II.  Devin Grayson also wrote an issue where Bruce officially adopted Dick and that was dropped out of all continuity--which I can live with if that ridiculous rape stuff with Tarantula "never happened", either.  When the powers-that-be just cherry-pick whatever canon nuggets that fit their whims at the moment, we can't make any assumptions about any "history" (or "future") beyond the single issue we just bought off the stand in the comics shop right now.  I would suggest that McKay cast the prettiest badass he can find.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The whole Romani thing isn't such a big deal.  People from Romania--or "gypsies", whatever--are Caucasians.  Dick has been blue-eyed and never particularly on the "swarthy" side since before World War II.  Devin Grayson also wrote an issue where Bruce officially adopted Dick and that was dropped out of all continuity--which I can live with if that ridiculous rape stuff with Tarantula "never happened", either.  When the powers-that-be just cherry-pick whatever canon nuggets that fit their whims at the moment, we can't make any assumptions about any "history" (or "future") beyond the single issue we just bought off the stand in the comics shop right now.  I would suggest that McKay cast the prettiest badass he can find.





> The most famous Romanian chracter is anastasia the gypsie from huntchback of notre damne and she  is dark skinned and that is the extent of their knowledge on Romanians


what even

guys

Romani people originated from India and South Asia. Romanians are completely different. It's true that the Roma are a recognized ethinic minority in Romania (thanks, Wikipedia), but they have little to do with each other. Since Romanians are European, I guess they'd have the same Indo-European ancestors, maybe even Indo-Aryan ones, but I don't really know about that stuff...

I agree that the people that praise Devin Grayson need to rethink it all, but like already mentioned: there is one big story that actually does something meaningful with it (technically two since it comes up again in Raptor's Revenge... actually, in every Deathstroke appearance for Raptor, he's used Romani words very openly, which is probably Priest's way of saying "this dude is Romani," so it's techinally brought up outside of the Nightwing solo). Dick being Romani isn't significant to his character, of course, but it could be. And I think it should be, ideally (I wouldn't be upset if it never gets brought up outside of comics, but I would appreciate it). It's putting me off how much some of you seem to _not_ want to add to Dick's character. Or maybe you're just afraid we won't get the best Dick possible for the movie (I can understand that). 

I mean, a big part of why Dick's heritage is ignored is because all we get are white dudes, and the rare white woman, to write the character. I don't think many of them have really cared (and I mean, with it being introduced so poorly, I can see why).

P.S. I still want Priest to write Nightwing just so I can read his Raptor, lol.

----------


## oasis1313

> what even
> 
> guys
> 
> Romani people originated from India and South Asia. Romanians are completely different. It's true that the Roma are a recognized ethinic minority in Romania (thanks, Wikipedia), but they have little to do with each other. Since Romanians are European, I guess they'd have the same Indo-European ancestors, maybe even Indo-Aryan ones, but I don't really know about that stuff...
> 
> I agree that the people that praise Devin Grayson need to rethink it all, but like already mentioned: there is one big story that actually does something meaningful with it (technically two since it comes up again in Raptor's Revenge... actually, in every Deathstroke appearance for Raptor, he's used Romani words very openly, which is probably Priest's way of saying "this dude is Romani," so it's techinally brought up outside of the Nightwing solo). Dick being Romani isn't significant to his character, of course, but it could be. And I think it should be, ideally (I wouldn't be upset if it never gets brought up outside of comics, but I would appreciate it). It's putting me off how much some of you seem to _not_ want to add to Dick's character. Or maybe you're just afraid we won't get the best Dick possible for the movie (I can understand that). 
> 
> I mean, a big part of why Dick's heritage is ignored is because all we get are white dudes, and the rare white woman, to write the character. I don't think many of them have really cared (and I mean, with it being introduced so poorly, I can see why).
> ...


Maybe this means that Devin Grayson--and by extension--DC Comics--know as little about the differences between Roma, Romi, and Romani as most of the rest of us.  Most of us don't particularly care.  I don't care who writes Nightwing stories--as long as they're good stories and make the character look good.

----------


## yash

> what even
> 
> guys
> 
> Romani people originated from India and South Asia. Romanians are completely different. It's true that the Roma are a recognized ethinic minority in Romania (thanks, Wikipedia), but they have little to do with each other. Since Romanians are European, I guess they'd have the same Indo-European ancestors, maybe even Indo-Aryan ones, but I don't really know about that stuff...
> 
> I agree that the people that praise Devin Grayson need to rethink it all, but like already mentioned: there is one big story that actually does something meaningful with it (technically two since it comes up again in Raptor's Revenge... actually, in every Deathstroke appearance for Raptor, he's used Romani words very openly, which is probably Priest's way of saying "this dude is Romani," so it's techinally brought up outside of the Nightwing solo). Dick being Romani isn't significant to his character, of course, but it could be. And I think it should be, ideally (I wouldn't be upset if it never gets brought up outside of comics, but I would appreciate it). It's putting me off how much some of you seem to _not_ want to add to Dick's character. Or maybe you're just afraid we won't get the best Dick possible for the movie (I can understand that). 
> 
> I mean, a big part of why Dick's heritage is ignored is because all we get are white dudes, and the rare white woman, to write the character. I don't think many of them have really cared (and I mean, with it being introduced so poorly, I can see why).
> ...


The defining features of Roma identity are cultural,it would be wrong to define the Roma as an Indian race since there has been a lot of genetic exchange between Roma and the main populations of the places where they live or have lived, their race would probably be "Caucasian", overall this has never been a race argument, its a cultural argument do you feel dick is the right representative of the the romani folks?

----------


## oasis1313

> The defining features of Roma identity are cultural,it would be wrong to define the Roma as an Indian race since there has been a lot of genetic exchange between Roma and the main populations of the places where they live or have lived, their race would probably be "Caucasian", overall this has never been a race argument, its a cultural argument do you feel dick is the right representative of the the romani folks?


I think Christopher Priest could write a great Nightwing book.  I loved "Quantum and Woody" and his "Falcon" book.

----------


## yohyoi

It's good WB is taking time with their movies now. They won't catch up to Marvel anytime soon. Might at the very least make all their DC movies watchable.

----------


## nightbird

> wat
> 
> I don't know about recognizable star, but being Romani and knowing martial arts are incredibly important qualities, especially the latter. I don't want Nightwing if all we're getting is shit like Nolan and Bale's Batman. That looked disgusting then, and it'll look even worse now as Dick is supposed to be the acrobatic hero.
> 
> Ultimately, we need an actor who can sell Dick's emotions and charm, and can make the action scenes look good. Being Romani would just be a great addition to his character and would help push Dick as a progressive hero, so I don't see why it shouldn't be important (even if it isn't necessary). 
> 
> And we also have posters in this very thread who want the actor to be recognizable so that we can get a few more attached names to the movie, and one they could realistically sell the movie using. 
> 
> So I really don't see how any of this shows McKay is making a mistake or something. I mean, he said so himself on Twitter: he could do this all by himself, but he wanted to interact with fans to make sure his Nightwing was the same Nightwing the fans want.


No they’re not. Superior acting abilities, right attitude and even face more important than martial background, Romani part and star power. Dick was retconed to be quarter Romani, now probably half at best. There is no need to focus on finding actual Romani actor (which is hard) to incorporate that side of his heritage. If he Romani, can act and look like Dick Grayson, I say go for it. But there is no need to specifically focus on it. It’s not important. Same with martial abilities. I don’t need a guy who can do flips, but can’t emote. And people don’t go to see superstars in superhero movies nowadays. Make a good movie, promote it well and people will go to see it despite the fact if they know who is Nightwing or actor who plays him.

----------


## yohyoi

> Make a good movie, promote it well and people will go to see it despite the fact if they know who is Nightwing or actor who plays him.


We are living in a world where the Justice League movie sells less than B list Marvel characters. Batman and Superman are not enough to draw people's money. WB needs to start doing good movies again that everyone loves. I don't even care if it is about Kite Man. Hell yeah!

----------


## nightbird

> I very much doubt he'd frame his choice around an informal fan poll on twitter. 
> 
> It's likely 95% just for fun, 5% to gauge how Nightwing fans will respond. 
> 
> He may also be using these results to inform other, more important decisions. If a lot of people vote for the Romani thing, then that's an aspect that might get worked into the backstory more than it would otherwise (scripts are always being tweaked, even during filming). If a lot of people vote for a big Hollywood name, then perhaps that shows that there's not a ton of faith that the character alone can push the movie and needs a bigger name attached, either an actor in the role itself or a cameo by a big name like Batman or Superman. A big "emotional, vulnerable" vote might indicate that audiences don't want the brooding badass as much as the nice pretty boy, and McKay might shift the tonal balance of the movie to match.
> 
> But odds are this is just for fun. 
> 
> And I give him points for mentioning the Romani thing at all. Seriously, that's such a non-issue for Dick it wouldn't change a single aspect of his character if it had never been brought up. To even know that about the character reveals a degree of research that not every director bothers with.


As I said, fans are worst advisers (especially when it comes to adapting heroes for movies). And I bet the Romani part of his poll will create in the future same controversy around Nighwting’s casting as “cast an Asian guy” created controversy around Iron Fist. Also, fans bombarded him with “#keepnightwingromani” thing since announcement. So it’s not surprising he knows about that. I just hope his vision will not be clouded by unnecessary stuff when it actually comes to casting Dick Grayson.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The defining features of Roma identity are cultural,it would be wrong to define the Roma as an Indian race since there has been a lot of genetic exchange between Roma and the main populations of the places where they live or have lived, their race would probably be "Caucasian", overall this has never been a race argument, its a cultural argument do you feel dick is the right representative of the the romani folks?


They are not just Caucasian, so reconsider that. Of course, there's been a lot of genetic exchange and a lot of them look white, agreed. That's not really disputable or even important, as skin colour and cultural heritage aren't always correlated (you can have a white and a black parent, but that doesn't make you any less black). 

A single individual (or character) can't be the single representative of an entire culture, but Dick could be an example of one side of the Romani experience (the side that grows up without knowing the origins of their parents, for example). Does he need to be? No. Should he be? It would be great if he was. 

Also, there are groups of Romani people who would appreciate being accepted as part of the Indian Diaspora, so I don't think it's wrong to define Romani people as _people who originated from Northern India._




> Maybe this means that Devin Grayson--and by extension--DC Comics--know as little about the differences between Roma, Romi, and Romani as most of the rest of us.  Most of us don't particularly care.  I don't care who writes Nightwing stories--as long as they're good stories and make the character look good.


I mean. That's kind of the problem. Romani people have been kinda screwed for centuries because "people didn't care." Maybe people should care? I don't understand why it's so harmful for marginalized people to get a slice of the pie that is big budget, positive portrayals in cinema that they've been sorely lacking...




> As I said, fans are worst advisers (especially when it comes to adapting heroes for movies). And I bet the Romani part of his poll will create in the future same controversy around Nighwting’s casting as “cast an Asian guy” created controversy around Iron Fist. Also, fans bombarded him with “#keepnightwingromani” thing since announcement. So it’s not surprising he knows about that. I just hope his vision will not be clouded by unnecessary stuff when it actually comes to casting Dick Grayson.


This is 2018, not 1940. It doesn't make as much sense for Dick to be white. White, straight, and male was the default in 1940, but not anymore. I think most Iron Fist fans were upset that the show turned out to be pretty damn bad, not that he wasn't Asian (that was probably a vocal minority, much like fans championing Dick's Romani heritage). 

I only just read this tweet, but: He's working on a rip-o-matic, which is, from what I understand, a clip show reel pulling from other movies and shows that is supposed to sell the movie to execs and stuff. So the poll is a simple way to gauge what he could put into the ripomatic, i.e. "how much action do I need? should I include anything about his mother?" 




> No they’re not. Superior acting abilities, right attitude and even face more important than martial background, Romani part and star power. *Dick was retconed to be quarter Romani, now probably half at best.* There is no need to focus on finding actual Romani actor (which is hard) to incorporate that side of his heritage. If he Romani, can act and look like Dick Grayson, I say go for it. But there is no need to specifically focus on it. It’s not important. Same with martial abilities. I don’t need a guy who can do flips, but can’t emote. And people don’t go to see superstars in superhero movies nowadays. Make a good movie, promote it well and people will go to see it despite the fact if they know who is Nightwing or actor who plays him.


I hope you're not implying his heritage matters less just because he's only part Romani... It'd be a different story if he was like 12.5% or less Romani and had no idea, but...

I mean, there are Romani actors all over the world that they can look at. The only reason I never really brought up Jésus Castro was because he's no martial artist. He's handsome, of Romani descent, and hey, is light-skinned like Dick traditionally is. So if having a background in martial arts or gymnastics doesn't matter to you, then there you go. 

We already know this is going to be a big and wide search, so I just don't get what the harm is in looking for Romani actors in addition to others is what I'm saying. It's just so odd seeing people act like wanting Dick to be Romani is terrible or something.

----------


## Rac7d*

> what even
> 
> guys
> 
> Romani people originated from India and South Asia. Romanians are completely different. It's true that the Roma are a recognized ethinic minority in Romania (thanks, Wikipedia), but they have little to do with each other. Since Romanians are European, I guess they'd have the same Indo-European ancestors, maybe even Indo-Aryan ones, but I don't really know about that stuff...
> 
> I agree that the people that praise Devin Grayson need to rethink it all, but like already mentioned: there is one big story that actually does something meaningful with it (technically two since it comes up again in Raptor's Revenge... actually, in every Deathstroke appearance for Raptor, he's used Romani words very openly, which is probably Priest's way of saying "this dude is Romani," so it's techinally brought up outside of the Nightwing solo). Dick being Romani isn't significant to his character, of course, but it could be. And I think it should be, ideally (I wouldn't be upset if it never gets brought up outside of comics, but I would appreciate it). It's putting me off how much some of you seem to _not_ want to add to Dick's character. Or maybe you're just afraid we won't get the best Dick possible for the movie (I can understand that). 
> 
> I mean, a big part of why Dick's heritage is ignored is because all we get are white dudes, and the rare white woman, to write the character. I don't think many of them have really cared (and I mean, with it being introduced so poorly, I can see why).
> ...


I am sorry I mean Esmerelda, no anastasia lol

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## Aahz

> The defining features of Roma identity are cultural,it would be wrong to define the Roma as an Indian race since there has been a lot of genetic exchange between Roma and the main populations of the places where they live or have lived, their race would probably be "Caucasian", overall this has never been a race argument, its a cultural argument do you feel dick is the right representative of the the romani folks?


If you go by the definition on Wikipedia the population of Inidia is at least partly "Caucasian".

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## Aahz

> I mean. That's kind of the problem. Romani people have been kinda screwed for centuries because "people didn't care." Maybe people should care? I don't understand why it's so harmful for marginalized people to get a slice of the pie that is big budget, positive portrayals in cinema that they've been sorely lacking...


To behonest I think they have (at least in eastern Europe) much bigger problems than representation in block buster movies.

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## The Darknight Detective

> I mean, there are Romani actors all over the world that they can look at.


Should actors only play roles that mirror their own ancestry? I'm not talking about taking Caucasian actors and transforming them into Asians as was the case years ago, but Irish playing Irish, Italians playing Italians, etc.. BTW, in the case of Dick, shouldn't the actor be only half Romani?  :Wink:

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## nightbird

> This is 2018, not 1940. It doesn't make as much sense for Dick to be white. White, straight, and male was the default in 1940, but not anymore. I think most Iron Fist fans were upset that the show turned out to be pretty damn bad, not that he wasn't Asian (that was probably a vocal minority, much like fans championing Dick's Romani heritage). 
> 
> I only just read this tweet, but: He's working on a rip-o-matic, which is, from what I understand, a clip show reel pulling from other movies and shows that is supposed to sell the movie to execs and stuff. So the poll is a simple way to gauge what he could put into the ripomatic, i.e. "how much action do I need? should I include anything about his mother?" 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you're not implying his heritage matters less just because he's only part Romani... It'd be a different story if he was like 12.5% or less Romani and had no idea, but...
> 
> I mean, there are Romani actors all over the world that they can look at. The only reason I never really brought up Jésus Castro was because he's no martial artist. He's handsome, of Romani descent, and hey, is light-skinned like Dick traditionally is. So if having a background in martial arts or gymnastics doesn't matter to you, then there you go. 
> ...


Iron Fist wasn’t an issue in “minority vocal fans” community. From actors, to big bloggers and sites everyone talked about that. 

I don’t think you actually understanding what I’m saying. I’m sorry if my terrible English the main reason why. 
Fist of all, I didn’t focus only on Romani part. I just equally highlighted that I don’t think think martial arts background or star power important. So no one is acting that “wanting Dick to be Romani is terrible or something”.  I don’t care if they incorporate his “Romani heritage” into the story. I don’t care  if they make him half-Romani, quarter or even full, if they will be able to find a guy who looks and acts like Dick Grayson. What I’m saying, it’s not important to find entically correct person to play him because he doesn’t look like typical Romani person (that some fans wants him to look like (also it’s possible to find fair skinned or light eyed Romani people)) due to him being a mixed blood. They should not focus just on actors’ heritage or martial abilities. It should be secondary thought for actor’s talent as an actor. If Jesus Castro good actor, ready to work hard  to bring Dick Grayson to life and overall a right person, why not. But him being part Romani should not be “the most important” quality. They can search, if they want, for Romani actors, martial artists or big stars, but all that should be bonuses, not focal points. I don’t like almost all casting choices for Dick Grayson, including popular Finn Whitlock and Zack Efron, so it’s hardly me wanting Dick to be just “a white guy”. I want an accurate adaptation of the character to the big screen.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a43/1802/38/ce5f2f46f2c7.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a35/1802/2a/0c85e822d090.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Dami
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNbufY7htWw/

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## yash

"Dick should be romani" is a useless checkbox, it's addition to the lore at best was useless and at worse it was ignorant, and it has not been relevant to the character

Fact is if there was a cass cain movie then asian is checkbox that needs to be ticked regardless if there is a white chick that knows the character better and is a great actor and a great martial artist, with dick there is no reason for "romani" being a checkbox it just limits the casting options for no good reasons

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## Godlike13

> I hope you're not implying his heritage matters less just because he's only part Romani... It'd be a different story if he was like 12.5% or less Romani and had no idea, but...


That is basically Dick's Romani story though.

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## Badou

Dick isn't a person of color. Him being part Romani doesn't change that. He shouldn't be looked at as one. I'm fine with Dick being part Romani, but it shouldn't be something that takes precedence over his identity. He just isn't that kind of character and doing it makes it feel completely out of character like the way Devin Grayson wrote it. He shouldn't care at all that he is Romani just like he doesn't care that he is part English. It is all irrelevant to him. He should care about Haley's Circus as being where he is from and that is what he identifies as being his history. 

I mean that is the way I look at it at least. It just feels off to have him suddenly care about it when he spent the vast majority of his history not being Romani. It was never something that was a foundational part of the character.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d42/1802/70/958b581b59bc.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## nightbird

> 


... (imo) most of his appearances just quantity over quality. Sometimes they don’t even bother to flesh out Nightwing as a character.

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## Rac7d*

> Dick isn't a person of color. Him being part Romani doesn't change that. He shouldn't be looked at as one. I'm fine with Dick being part Romani, but it shouldn't be something that takes precedence over his identity. He just isn't that kind of character and doing it makes it feel completely out of character like the way Devin Grayson wrote it. He shouldn't care at all that he is Romani just like he doesn't care that he is part English. It is all irrelevant to him. He should care about Haley's Circus as being where he is from and that is what he identifies as being his history. 
> 
> I mean that is the way I look at it at least. It just feels off to have him suddenly care about it when he spent the vast majority of his history not being Romani. It was never something that was a foundational part of the character.


Does his heritage only count if he is dark skinned? They are opening alot cans of worms with this. To all the mixed people in the world where do they stand, becasue that is what Dick grayson is mixed, so him being white passing is not unusal.

If people care about Super hero of color there is Vast number of them who could use this kind of attention and fight Dick grayson is not one of them, he white passing boy who was raised by a wealthy billionare, he is privaledged white man and has never had the experience of a POC in his entire history.

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## oasis1313

> Does his heritage only count if he is dark skinned? They are opening alot cans of worms with this. To all the mixed people in the world where do they stand, becasue that is what Dick grayson is mixed, so him being white passing is not unusal.
> 
> If people care about Super hero of color there is Vast number of them who could use this kind of attention and fight Dick grayson is not one of them, he white passing boy who was raised by a wealthy billionare, he is privaledged white man and has never had the experience of a POC in his entire history.


Then why should people try to shoehorn racial angst into the character?  It's never been there.  I'd like my celluloid Dick (no matter race he's turned into or not) to be a happy warrior, loving being a hero and kicking bad-guy azz, having adventures , dating pretty girls, and loving his life.

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## Rac7d*

> Then why should people try to shoehorn racial angst into the character?  It's never been there.  I'd like my celluloid Dick (no matter race he's turned into or not) to be a happy warrior, loving being a hero and kicking bad-guy azz, having adventures , dating pretty girls, and loving his life.


They shoulndt
its a waste on him when there are real POC heroes who need such attention

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## Ascended

> As I said, fans are worst advisers (especially when it comes to adapting heroes for movies). And I bet the Romani part of his poll will create in the future same controversy around Nighwtings casting as* cast an Asian guy created controversy around Iron Fist.* Also, fans bombarded him with #keepnightwingromani thing since announcement. So its not surprising he knows about that. I just hope his vision will not be clouded by unnecessary stuff when it actually comes to casting Dick Grayson.


You know, that really annoyed me. 

I get the whole cultural appropriation thing, but jesus, Danny was a blonde white guy from the start, and casting someone of Asian descent just because the character knows martial arts? Isn't *that* racism? Oh, the guy is a kung fu master, he *must* be Asian! 

Dick being Romani is such a non-issue.....he's still "white" and he's still from a travelling circus and spent most of his life in a rich man's house in America. Finding out he is Romani is like me finding out I'm actually German instead of Irish. It changes nothing. At most, Dick would perhaps find a bit more interest in his culture.....and that didn't happen, just like I barely know anything about my Irish (or perhaps German?) ancestors.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Should actors only play roles that mirror their own ancestry? I'm not talking about taking Caucasian actors and transforming them into Asians as was the case years ago, but Irish playing Irish, Italians playing Italians, etc.. BTW, in the case of Dick, shouldn't the actor be only half Romani?


See... we have British and New Zealanders playing American characters. But on the other hand, I don't think we really should have a direct say on that unless we were Romani? As for Dick's actor having to be half-Romani to portray the character, I don't believe that. I mean, as it is, you can't actually find anyone of some, like, "pure" Romani descent. Everyone's mixed. Like Dick. It'd be fine if they managed to find someone.




> That is basically Dick's Romani story though.


I mean that's part of why Raptor was always shitting on him. Part of the appeal of Raptor is that he's basically never wrong, lol.




> *Dick isn't a person of color.* Him being part Romani doesn't change that. He shouldn't be looked at as one. I'm fine with Dick being part Romani, but it shouldn't be something that takes precedence over his identity. He just isn't that kind of character and doing it makes it feel completely out of character like the way Devin Grayson wrote it. He shouldn't care at all that he is Romani just like he doesn't care that he is part English. It is all irrelevant to him. He should care about Haley's Circus as being where he is from and that is what he identifies as being his history. 
> 
> I mean that is the way I look at it at least. It just feels off to have him suddenly care about it when he spent the vast majority of his history not being Romani. It was never something that was a foundational part of the character.


I've never said Dick needs to care? I said the director should care. And it seems like some of you guys have some fairly harmful views, or at least you make it sound like you do, so maybe reconsider some of that, or at least your wording, lol. 

All I want is a good Dick and a good Raptor. Whether we get Raptor or not, I'm hoping for his inclusion. And if you want a good Raptor, you need a good Mary. Which then affects Dick. 




> Then why should people try to shoehorn racial angst into the character?  It's never been there.  I'd like my celluloid Dick (no matter race he's turned into or not) to be a happy warrior, loving being a hero and kicking bad-guy azz, having adventures , dating pretty girls, and loving his life.


The actor being Romani doesn't instantly mean we'd get a movie about racial angst, so don't worry about that yet. I don't know about other people, but part of the reason it would be nice for Dick's actor to be Romani would be because we'd get a regular, positive portrayal of the culture. I think most people just want a good Nightwing movie but with his mother's heritage kept in tact. 




> Does his heritage only count if he is dark skinned? They are opening alot cans of worms with this. To all the mixed people in the world where do they stand, becasue that is what Dick grayson is mixed, so him being white passing is not unusal.
> 
> If people care about Super hero of color there is Vast number of them who could use this kind of attention and fight Dick grayson is not one of them, he white passing boy who was raised by a wealthy billionare, he is privaledged white man and has never had the experience of a POC in his entire history.


Yeah, his heritage definitely doesn't only count if he's dark skinned. 

And also, you basically mentioned the entire reason Raptor even exists as a character. And why we need him on screen. 




> ] 
> 
> I get the whole cultural appropriation thing, but jesus, Danny was a blonde white guy from the start, and casting someone of Asian descent just because the character knows martial arts? Isn't *that* racism? Oh, the guy is a kung fu master, he *must* be Asian! 
> 
> Dick being Romani is such a non-issue.....he's still "white" and he's still from a travelling circus and spent most of his life in a rich man's house in America. Finding out he is Romani is like me finding out I'm actually German instead of Irish. It changes nothing. At most, Dick would perhaps find a bit more interest in his culture.....and that didn't happen, just like I barely know anything about my Irish (or perhaps German?) ancestors.


It doesn't change much for Dick (and again, when all you have are super white writers, why would it?)... I don't get why everyone is talking about this? Again, Raptor. I need to hear him yelling "Sidekick! Sellout! The lost son of Mary!" at least once.

And this is off-topic now, but the Iron Fist thing: I mean, you can't just brush off cultural appropriation as a minor issue and pretend you have the moral high ground here. It's a complicated topic... Asians practicing an age-old, traditional part of their culture has nothing to do with racism. I mean, that's their culture. I think Asians have a problem with a white guy with no martial arts background portraying a martial arts master, and after seeing how it turned out, I can see why, lol. It was 2016, not whenever IF was created, so there's no real reason we didn't have an Asian-American actor/character. Or a black one. or Indian. It just goes on. And before you say "source material!" recognize that this Danny Rand wasn't even a proper Iron Fist yet, mans couldn't even use both hands yet. They already deviated from what people expected, they could've deviated even further if they wanted.

My biggest problem with IF was that the fight choreography made me physically ill at times, and I just hope for so much better than that in Nightwing and the Titans tv series.

----------


## Badou

> I've never said Dick needs to care? I said the director should care. And it seems like some of you guys have some fairly harmful views, or at least you make it sound like you do, so maybe reconsider some of that, or at least your wording, lol. 
> 
> All I want is a good Dick and a good Raptor. Whether we get Raptor or not, I'm hoping for his inclusion. And if you want a good Raptor, you need a good Mary. Which then affects Dick


And I think the director should care about other things instead of some minor retcon that in no way defines the character he is trying to bring to the big screen. I just don't get why people think that him being Romani is the #1 most important thing about who should play the character over anything else. I mean Mary has only been shown to be Romani for a year and a half as before it was Dick's dad that was Romani. That could no longer be the case because of the William Cobb story.  

Also I don't think I've said anything harmful. People acting like Dick being Romani is some integral part of his character just isn't true. He isn't a person of color and treating him as such I think is disrespectful to actual people of color.

Edit: Now I'm not saying he shouldn't be played by someone who is part Romani if they are the best actor for the part, but I don't think that should be a priority in the casting. I mean they cast an Israeli actress in Gadot to play a Greek Amazon character in Wonder Woman. They didn't get a Greek actress to play her and instead got someone who they thought would be best for the role. That is what should take priority.

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## Ascended

> It doesn't change much for Dick (and again, when all you have are super white writers, why would it?)


We're talking about it because McKay put it in that twitter poll. /shrug.




> And this is off-topic now, but the Iron Fist thing:


Yeah, this isn't the place, so I'll just say this: I'm not trying to look like I have the moral high ground. I don't pretend to have a deep, nuanced understanding of the very complex issue of cultural appropriation, largely because I don't care much about my own ancestral culture so I have no frame of reference. But....Danny Rand? The best, most interesting thing about Danny is that he's best friends with the excellent Luke Cage.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But I still find the "make him Asian" thing to feel a little racist. I mean, that covers a really big patch of ground, cultures, histories, traditions.....it's like lumping every Native American tribe into one big group with no thought put into the vast differences between them. The Navajo and the Passamaquoddy are nothing alike for example, and you'd be insulting one to call them the other. Likewise the Monguls and the Koreans and the Chinese Qing were all "Asian" but completely different peoples. So saying you want an "Asian" guy to play Iron Fist just because "kung fu" (which was invented by an Buddhist Indian, btw) is pretty f**king ignorant really, without narrowing it down to someone who could pass for being from the actual area in question. Where was Kun'lun supposed to be, Northern China? Then don't ask for an "Asian" guy, ask for someone from Northern China. If all you want (not you you, just a general "you") is an "Asian" guy because "martial arts" you're not being enlightened, you're enforcing racial stereotypes. Whether that's worse than the cultural appropriation, I don't know.




> I think Asians have a problem with a white guy with no martial arts background portraying a martial arts master, and after seeing how it turned out, I can see why, lol.


Dude, *everyone* should have a problem with the way it turned out.  :Smile: 

But a big budget movie about the most acrobatic martial artist this side of Spider-Man should definitely achieve a higher degree of quality than Iron Fist managed. Hell, you can't get away with being in a superhero movie without six-eight months of intense physical training. Hugh Jackman in his first tour as Wolverine would be laughed off the set today.

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## Barbatos666

> And I think the director should care about other things instead of some minor retcon that in no way defines the character he is trying to bring to the big screen. I just don't get why people think that him being Romani is the #1 most important thing about who should play the character over anything else. I mean Mary has only been shown to be Romani for a year and a half as before it was Dick's dad that was Romani. That could no longer be the case because of the William Cobb story.  
> 
> Also I don't think I've said anything harmful. People acting like Dick being Romani is some integral part of his character just isn't true. He isn't a person of color and treating him as such I think is disrespectful to actual people of color.
> 
> Edit: Now I'm not saying he shouldn't be played by someone who is part Romani if they are the best actor for the part, but I don't think that should be a priority in the casting. I mean they cast an Israeli actress in Gadot to play a Greek Amazon character in Wonder Woman. They didn't get a Greek actress to play her and instead got someone who they thought would be best for the role. That is what should take priority.


Agreed, I'm always amazed by Tumblr's ability to bring up irrelevant facts and pretend they're important because they push the SJW agenda.
Devin Grayson's standing among Nightwing fans is poor.
Her story introduced the Romani and it was both terrible and forgettable in addition to being ignorant at best and racist itself at worst.
Give that story to an actual Romani and see how they feel about that crap.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a20/1802/e3/8b567d2adf40.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNIeFjBBdWd/

[IMG]https://d.***********/d02/1802/7a/1fc8f7c1db09.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNXC1uKBRhb/

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## oasis1313

Dick was the cutest little kid ever.

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## nightbird

> Dick was the cutest little kid ever.


ikr  :Smile: 

[IMG]https://a.***********/a18/1802/a8/f613cf87911b.jpg[/IMG]

Dick and Dami 
credit:logo

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a19/1802/2d/7d06587ae6fc.jpg[/IMG]
So, due to this tweet, some people speculating that a villain in Nightwings movie could be Penguin played by Josh Gad.

----------


## The Darknight Detective

> See... we have British and New Zealanders playing American characters. But on the other hand, I don't think we really should have a direct say on that unless we were Romani?


Okay, but as an Irish-Italian American, that would mean mean I should have a direct say over roles of similar ancestry, while those of different ethnic compositions shouldn't. Personally, as long as the actor on screen is good and believable, then I'm satisfied. If the producers can find someone with the proper ancestry, great, but it's not really necessary for Dick Grayson, IMO.

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a19/1802/2d/7d06587ae6fc.jpg[/IMG]
> So, due to this tweet, some people speculating that a villain in Nightwing’s movie could be Penguin played by Josh Gad.


The Penguin could work well in a comedy action Nightwing film. I would also like an orphaned circus boy to be cast. Makes it more immersive.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a01/1802/db/8b2bec64b53b.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfEb-4Aj8xE/

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## Rac7d*

> Okay, but as an Irish-Italian American, that would mean mean I should have a direct say over roles of similar ancestry, while those of different ethnic compositions shouldn't. Personally, as long as the actor on screen is good and believable, then I'm satisfied. If the producers can find someone with the proper ancestry, great, but it's not really necessary for Dick Grayson, IMO.


Imagine a world were you could only portray characters of your exact lineage and race.........  this like the people upset because the actress playing Jasmine is mixed
Imagine if you were gay and you could only portray get characters.  This whole campaign is nonsense, I waiting for the day someone say to kid in school you can't play this role because your black and the character is white and it defended by colorwashsing....

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## nightbird

> The Penguin could work well in a comedy action Nightwing film. I would also like an orphaned circus boy to be cast. Makes it more immersive.


They were funny in Arkham Knight DCL, but, imo, I don’t think Penguin is a good villain for Nightwing. So I hope it stays just as speculation or at least they make him secondary villain.

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## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c16/1802/38/44baf59b301b.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://c.***********/c38/1802/6d/6346dab9bc3d.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://a.***********/a27/1802/89/1295344ef1cf.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing vs Red Hood
full version-> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/17...le-3-nightwing

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## Ascended

> So, due to this tweet, some people speculating that a villain in Nightwings movie could be Penguin played by Josh Gad.


I think Gad is campaigning for the role....but I don't think that means Penguin is actually in the movie, just that Gad wants him to be, and wants the role.

Personally, I'm hoping for Professor Pyg.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think Gad is campaigning for the role....but I don't think that means Penguin is actually in the movie, just that Gad wants him to be, and wants the role.
> 
> Personally, I'm hoping for Professor Pyg.


I could honestly get behind Gad for professor pyg, complete with a super creepy musical number.

----------


## Ascended

> I could honestly get behind Gad for professor pyg, complete with a super creepy musical number.


That would be amazing.

Dick has a rogues gallery of his own to draw from. And yes, none of them are nearly as well known as Bruce's villains but that shouldn't be too big a problem to overcome. Its definitely been proven that comic book success isn't necessary for movie success. 

And we've already seen an incredible Penguin from Danny DeVito. Yeah, that was a long time ago, but there's such a huge roster of Gotham-Bludhaven villains to pick from, why go with one we've already seen?

Gad as Professor Pyg could be what Nightwing needs to get some interest in developing his rogues gallery as well, if the right people could be made to notice the potential there.

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## yash

I don't think professor pyg will be in a nightwing film, he was designed to be a batman villan, not necessarily a bruce Wayne villan but rather someone who belongs in gotham where everything is dark and grungy, nightwing and now even bludhaven is very colourful and so i think the villan should also be very eccentric and eclectic although my biggest fear is that nightwing will be like asm2 where they will use his movie to setup future movies in which case we could get one of the bat villans like blackmask or twoface and it would become a batfamily movie with robins or even huntress

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c16/1802/38/44baf59b301b.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://c.***********/c38/1802/6d/6346dab9bc3d.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> [IMG]https://a.***********/a27/1802/89/1295344ef1cf.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing vs Red Hood
> full version-> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/17...le-3-nightwing


Do we have a release date yet for the Batman Anime movie?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Do we have a release date yet for the Batman Anime movie?


Japan getting it first

----------


## Rac7d*

> That would be amazing.
> 
> Dick has a rogues gallery of his own to draw from. And yes, none of them are nearly as well known as Bruce's villains but that shouldn't be too big a problem to overcome. Its definitely been proven that comic book success isn't necessary for movie success. 
> 
> And we've already seen an incredible Penguin from Danny DeVito. Yeah, that was a long time ago, but there's such a huge roster of Gotham-Bludhaven villains to pick from, why go with one we've already seen?
> 
> Gad as Professor Pyg could be what Nightwing needs to get some interest in developing his rogues gallery as well, if the right people could be made to notice the potential there.


There was no warm reception for any of his rogues in his rturn to bludhaven, the only one anyone want is Deathroke

----------


## nightbird

> There was no warm reception for any of his rogues in his rturn to bludhaven, the only one anyone want is Deathroke


People also interested in seeing Raptor and to lesser degree Blockbuster.

----------


## Godlike13

Raptor would be cool.

----------


## nightbird

> Raptor would be cool.


I honestly think he is the best villain to help effortlessly incorporate into the story Haly’s Circus, Graysons’ death scene and Batman/Robin flashbacks.

----------


## Badou

Blockbuster would be super dull and Raptor would be marginally better, but I'm not really that interested in seeing him to be honest. I can't really picture a unique movie based around either character. 

I think Pyg, Deathstroke (never going to happen), or something Sypral related would be my top choices. That or go super crazy and have Dick take on all of Blackgate like he did in that one story. Although I could see them trying to use more well known Gotham villains to help sell the movie. So maybe a Penguin would be in it as one of the villains. 

I really have no clue what they are going to do. I'd guess they will just use Blockbuster if I had to speculate though.

Edit: Oh yeah, the Owls. I guess they could use them maybe. Them or Blockbuster seem the most likely.

----------


## nightbird

> I don't think professor pyg will be in a nightwing film, he was designed to be a batman villan, not necessarily a bruce Wayne villan but rather someone who belongs in gotham where everything is dark and grungy, nightwing and now even bludhaven is very colourful and so i think the villan should also be very eccentric and eclectic although my biggest fear is that nightwing will be like asm2 where they will use his movie to setup future movies in which case we could get one of the bat villans like blackmask or twoface and it would become a batfamily movie with robins or even huntress


Better Huntress than Batgirl  :Big Grin:

----------


## WonderNight

Well my biggest fear is that the nightwing movie becomes a Batman movie.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well my biggest fear is that the nightwing movie becomes a Batman movie.


I'm going to have bad dreams tonight.

----------


## nightbird

> Well my biggest fear is that the nightwing movie becomes a Batman movie.


Well, if they start filming before Matt Reeves/WB/Ben Affleck resolve their problem around Batman’s role, we have a good chance to have Nightwing movie without any Batman.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, if they start filming before Matt Reeves/WB/Ben Affleck resolve their problem around Batman’s role, we have a good chance to have Nightwing movie without any Batman.


Oh it'll have plenty of gotham, batvilians, babs and others just like like a batman movie would.

----------


## nightbird

> Oh it'll have plenty of gotham, batvilians, babs and others just like like a batman movie would.


Plenty of Batmovies had no Batfamily members involved in crimefighting.

----------


## WonderNight

> Plenty of Batmovies had no Batfamily members involved in crimefighting.


 yeah because they had Batman as the lead. I want them to build and grow nightwing and his world first then build up to a batfamily event crossover movie like a batman avengers movie. But if they start nightwing off in gotham, fighting batvilians with batgirl and batman people will look him as a supporter character in his own movie. because that's batman "toys" let nightwing have his own first. It's like a date get to know the individual before you meet the fam.

----------


## nightbird

> yeah because they had Batman as the lead. I want them to build and grow nightwing and his world first then build up to a batfamily event crossover movie like a batman avengers movie. But if they start nightwing off in gotham, fighting batvilians with batgirl and batman people will look him as a supporter character in his own movie. because that's batman "toys" let nightwing have his own first. It's like a date get to know the individual before you meet the fam.


We will not see Nightwing fighting crime in Gotham. DC more interested in promoting idea Nightwing = Bludhaven. 
And Batgirl is not as tightly associated to Batman, as let’s say Catwoman, that people would think about Bruce all the time. After all Dick and Babs have their own history in comics and, to lesser degree, outside it. 
And honestly it’s hard to have (right now) a Nightwing movie without at least mentioning Batman and their history together. Especially at this point considering where DCEU’s Batman started.

----------


## WonderNight

> We will not see Nightwing fighting crime in Gotham. DC more interested in promoting idea Nightwing = Bludhaven. 
> And Batgirl is not as tightly associated to Batman, as let’s say Catwoman, that people would think about Bruce all the time. After all Dick and Babs have their own history in comics and, to lesser degree, outside it. 
> And honestly it’s hard to have (right now) a Nightwing movie without at least mentioning Batman and their history together. Especially at this point considering where DCEU’s Batman started.


of course they should mention Batman and there relationship. But there is a difference between call backs to history and full on supporting characters.

----------


## oasis1313

> Japan getting it first


That's to be expected with anime productions.  We'll get it maybe a couple of months later.  I saw a "2018" blurb, but had anticipated more news by now.  The trailers looked great.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's to be expected with anime productions.  We'll get it maybe a couple of months later.  I saw a "2018" blurb, but had anticipated more news by now.  The trailers looked great.


it will be out in april fo us

----------


## oasis1313

> it will be out in april fo us


Hey, that's great news!  Straight to DVD/BluRay?

----------


## nightbird

> Hey, that's great news!  Straight to DVD/BluRay?


Yes=)

----------


## oasis1313

> Yes=)


Ninja Gorillas has got to be the coolest thing that has ever been conceived of.  I am going crazy over the notion of Gorilla Grodd in this movie.

----------


## Barbatos666

So what happened to the Nightwing film news?

----------


## nightbird

> So what happened to the Nightwing film news?


https://twitter.com/buddboetticher/s...825862144?s=20
He just made his “announcement” earlier than Valentine’s Day

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> So what happened to the Nightwing film news?


Its probaly still in preproduction as well as the early days of casting so once they cast everyone and start filming we'll know.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c22/1802/ad/0b273b942c72.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/ShaniGrim/status...438389767?s=20

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b00/1802/38/55710433c715.jpg[/IMG]https://twitter.com/astraea_f/status...683659776?s=20

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b00/1802/38/55710433c715.jpg[/IMG]https://twitter.com/astraea_f/status...683659776?s=20


Oh, these are so sweet!  I LOVE fan-art.  It's the only place where you can see nice things.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c24/1802/5f/dbaa3f9d2668.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfN2yEyBkwa/

----------


## nightbird

> Oh, these are so sweet!  I LOVE fan-art.  It's the only place where you can see nice things.


I miss some meaningful interactions between Bruce and Dick.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I miss some meaningful interactions between Bruce and Dick.


I miss some meaningful interactions between Dick and anyone.

----------


## nightbird

> I miss some meaningful interactions between Dick and anyone.


Yeah, he is only close with Damian and Babs right now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, he is only close with Damian and Babs right now.


They have restored his friendship with Wally
unfortunatley his other friends suffer, esp Donna right now and Tempest was so ready to kill him several issues back

----------


## Waterfall

> Yeah, he is only close with Damian and Babs right now.


He's just bought a nice penthouse for Wally and helped him move into it.

But yeah, he seems to be isolated for a while now. Hopefully he has a significant role in No Justice.

----------


## nightbird

> They have restored his friendship with Wally
> unfortunatley his other friends suffer, esp Donna right now and Tempest was so ready to kill him several issues back





> He's just bought a nice penthouse for Wally and helped him move into it.
> 
> But yeah, he seems to be isolated for a while now. Hopefully he has a significant role in No Justice.


No, I meant inside Batfamily. Although, yeah, his social life outside Batfamily just as dreadful. 
Abnett’s writing on Titans really pisses me off.

----------


## Rakiduam

Dick was less insolated while "dead" working with Spyral than now with the Titans.

----------


## oasis1313

> He's just bought a nice penthouse for Wally and helped him move into it.
> 
> But yeah, he seems to be isolated for a while now. Hopefully he has a significant role in No Justice.


Dick bought a penthouse for Wally?  I thought Nightwing was supposed to be all about Minimum Wage Superheroics.  As for No Justice--well, I'd predict that title was created especially with Grayson fans in mind.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick bought a penthouse for Wally?  I thought Nightwing was supposed to be all about Minimum Wage Superheroics.  As for No Justice--well, I'd predict that title was created especially with Grayson fans in mind.


He still has a trust, and will use it for the right reason. I mean Tim has millions and his parents are not even dead

----------


## shadowsgirl

> He still has a trust, and will use it for the right reason. I mean Tim has millions and his parents are not even dead


Dick bought the penthouse with Bruce's platinum card. 




Tim's parents aren't rich in the new continuity. He isn't a millionaire. I guess he just uses Bruce's money.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick bought the penthouse with Bruce's platinum card. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim's parents aren't rich in the new continuity. He isn't a millionaire. I guess he just uses Bruce's money.


Usually hates using Bruces Money lol
Odd he can take meon from bruce but then wimper when he says not to call donna

Tim is  a weird Robin

----------


## oasis1313

So Dick won't take even a figurehead job at Wayne Enterprises to invest any interest in the endeavor that is allowing him to continue his crusade, won't formally accept money--HOWEVER, he steals boats and credit cards from Bruce?  Did the last reboot do away with the Joker wiping out Haly's Circus and all Dick's trust fund from his parents?  This makes Dick look like a thief and a parasite.  It's clear that DC doesn't want to address these issues any more than it does whatever legal arrangements there are.

I hadn't heard that Tim wasn't independently wealthy in the latest reboot.  So he's mooching off Bruce now, too?  Can you clarify?

Jason had been taking whopping cuts from all the crime-lords he was shaking down, dunno if he's still doing it, so maybe he got enough that way to fund the Outlaws.

Maybe Alfred gives Damian an allowance for shoveling guano in the Batcave.

----------


## Moonwix

Clearly, the writer's didn't put much thought into it. DC had 20 years to establish a career path for dick and failed. Writers unimaginative assumptions in grounding Dick means he as to work mundane jobs all the time, forgetting that a guy with access to the private/expensive education  would make better career paths for themselves, if the writers wanted realism. Now, Dick just looks like those rich kids who depend on their rich dads for their future. Unfortunately,  it makes Dick look like a low/under achiever and leaves  a bad impression on the character. Impressions, I noticed in his portrayal in the latest animated movies.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick is still 21 from the Grayson series. The guy is an overachiever. Dick became Robin, Nightwing, Batman and Agent 37 in about 5 years or so. Let's not forget leading the proto-Teen Titans and Titans. Dick is one of the most overpowered non-meta superhero ever. Imagine when he reaches 25 years old in 10 real years.


its almost like time has stopped, and no one can progress....  
Dick is 24, simply because Damian is now 13 also that spaces out the robin a bit
Tim was never this close is age to Dick which explain the more distant relationship now ther more friends then, since the mentorship time vanished

----------


## shadowsgirl

> So Dick won't take even a figurehead job at Wayne Enterprises to invest any interest in the endeavor that is allowing him to continue his crusade, won't formally accept money--HOWEVER, he steals boats and credit cards from Bruce?  Did the last reboot do away with the Joker wiping out Haly's Circus and all Dick's trust fund from his parents?  This makes Dick look like a thief and a parasite.  It's clear that DC doesn't want to address these issues any more than it does whatever legal arrangements there are.
> 
> I hadn't heard that Tim wasn't independently wealthy in the latest reboot.  So he's mooching off Bruce now, too?  Can you clarify?


Wally lost everything he had in the Pre-Flashpoint universe, so I'm pretty sure Bruce wanted to help him, too. After the League disbanded the Titans, he didn't have any home.

Tim is the one who „stole” the yacht. Obviously, Bruce knew about it, he is the fricking Batman after all. He simply turned a blind eye. It was after that Tim’s penthouse was destroyed and the Titans lost their home. It was the second penthouse of Tim that someone ruined. Tim thought the yacht will be the best option, because he didn’t want to endanger any civilian when some random enemy decide to hit on the Titans. 

Tim’s parents are just normal, hardworking middle class folks now. Maybe they are in the lower-middle class, the writer never made it clear. He spends Bruce's money or maybe he knows the way how to make money for himself. He is supposed to be a genius, so probably he has some investments in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. Tim has multiple headquarters and his own Batplane, but he built them.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason had been taking whopping cuts from all the crime-lords he was shaking down, dunno if he's still doing it, so maybe he got enough that way to fund the Outlaws.


He still does, it`s just mostly off-panel.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b02/1802/44/0c45ff0d9e21.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]https://c.***********/c34/1802/81/a60bb5cd73b2.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing in police uniform.
Batman: White Knight by Sean Gordon Murphy

----------


## nightbird

> Clearly, the writer's didn't put much thought into it. DC had 20 years to establish a career path for dick and failed. Writers unimaginative assumptions in grounding Dick means he as to work mundane jobs all the time, forgetting that a guy with access to the private/expensive education  would make better career paths for themselves, if the writers wanted realism. Now, Dick just looks like those rich kids who depend on their rich dads for their future. Unfortunately,  it makes Dick look like a low/under achiever and leaves  a bad impression on the character. Impressions, I noticed in his portrayal in the latest animated movies.


Animated version of Nightwing has a lot of problems, but I don’t think casual fans even care about what’s going on with Dick’s bank account and where he gets money for all his toys.

----------


## WonderNight

> its almost like time has stopped, and no one can progress....  
> Dick is 24, simply because Damian is now 13 also that spaces out the robin a bit
> Tim was never this close is age to Dick which explain the more distant relationship now ther more friends then, since the mentorship time vanished


wait... does that mean tim and Stephanie are 19 and 20? they were 16 and 17 when daimen was just 10.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> wait... does that mean tim and Stephanie are 19 and 20? they were 16 and 17 when daimen was just 10.


No, Tim is still 16. It was confirmed in Detective Comics.

----------


## Badou

I thought they said Tim was 18. He is college age.

----------


## Frontier

> I thought they said Tim was 18. He is college age.


I think he's 16 but smart enough to have skipped a few grades and start looking at college.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No, Tim is still 16. It was confirmed in Detective Comics.


he is still 16 and Damian aged up? what kind of time warp
have they also explained why his suit makes him taller?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I thought they said Tim was 18. He is college age.


Actually he graduated years ago, but then he was busy with the Teen Titans.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> he is still 16 and Damian aged up? what kind of time warp
> have they also explained why his suit makes him taller?


Tim's age was always messy. The DC Universe went forward, but he was frozen in time. He celebrated like 5 Christmas, while he was still 16 in the Pre-Flashpoint universe.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tim's age was always messy. The DC Universe went forward, but he was frozen in time. He celebrated like 5 Christmas, while he was still 16 in the Pre-Flashpoint universe.


is anyone in dc pregant right now?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> is anyone in dc pregant right now?


I don't know.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Elmo

They need to make everyone the same age

----------


## dietrich

> he is still 16 and Damian aged up? what kind of time warp
> have they also explained why his suit makes him taller?


So he was 13 in the RR series? That doesn't work they really should let him age soon Damian's gonna catch up.

It's a power suit :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> So he was 13 in the RR series? That doesn't work they really should let him age soon Damian's gonna catch up.
> 
> It's a power suit


He was almost 18 in the Red Robin series. It's just another reason why his current age doesn't make any sense. He originally started at 13, but in the New52 he was 16 when he became Red Robin. So it's not just that they aged up Damian with 3 years while Tim was remain the same age, but there are more years are missing, too. He was Bruce's partner in the new continuity as well, just went by the name Red Robin from the start. He was doing the hero thing for years before Damian showed up. Lobdell said that 90% of Tim's old life are still happened in the new continuity, just everything happened to him as Red Robin instead of Robin (yeah, it doesn't make any sense). So summed up, he started at 16 and then he was doing the hero thing for years before Damian showed up at the age of 10. Now Damian is 13, but Tim is still 16, despite the fact that who knows how many years have passed.

----------


## Aahz

> He was almost 18 in the Red Robin series. It's just another reason why his current age doesn't make any sense. He originally started at 13, but in the New52 he was 16 when he became Red Robin. So it's not just that they aged up Damian with 3 years while Tim was remain the same age, but there are more years are missing, too. He was Bruce's partner in the new continuity as well, just went by the name Red Robin from the start. He was doing the hero thing for years before Damian showed up. Lobdell said that 90% of Tim's old life are still happened in the new continuity, just everything happened to him as Red Robin instead of Robin (yeah, it doesn't make any sense). So summed up, he started at 16 and then he was doing the hero thing for years before Damian showed up at the age of 10. Now Damian is 13, but Tim is still 16, despite the fact that who knows how many years have passed.


Actually now in Rebirth he was again Robin before he became Red Robin. And sofar they never said anything about how old he was when he started neither in the new 52 nor in Rebirth.

Damians age makes imo also no sense since he went directly from being 10 pre rebirth to being 13 post rebirth. (And if you factor in that Bruce met Talia the first time when Dick was already in collage it stops making sense anyway).

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Actually now in Rebirth he was again Robin before he became Red Robin. And sofar they never said anything about how old he was when he started neither in the new 52 nor in Rebirth.
> 
> Damians age makes imo also no sense since he went directly from being 10 pre rebirth to being 13 post rebirth. (And if you factor in that Bruce met Talia the first time when Dick was already in collage it stops making sense anyway).


But in the New52, he couldn’t be 13, because he didn’t look like one. His father talked about college (although we still don’t know when Tim finished high school, so confusing) and if you look at this picture, you can tell that the boys are really close in age. In this picture Dick wasn’t even Robin.



And according to the New52, Jason and Dick started at 16. If Tim started at 13, that’s really weird. The artists still draw Dick as a teenager in the flashbacks, so it’s seems like this stupidity still stands. 
I know that Tim was Robin again in Rebirth, but in the meantime, we don’t know anything about his life. And Barrows was inconsistent when he drew the flashbacks. There were scenes, when he looked like a kid, but then all of a sudden, he seemed way older than that.

----------


## Aahz

> But in the New52, he couldn’t be 13, because he didn’t look like one. His father talked about college (although we still don’t know when Tim finished high school, so confusing) and if you look at this picture, you can tell that the boys are really close in age. In this picture Dick wasn’t even Robin.
> 
> And according to the New52, Jason and Dick started at 16. If Tim started at 13, that’s really weird. The artists still draw Dick as a teenager in the flashbacks, so it’s seems like this stupidity still stands. I know that he was Robin again in Rebirth, but in the meantime, we don’t know anything about his life. And Barrows was inconsistent when he drew the flashbacks. There were scenes, when he looked like a kid, but then all of a sudden, he seemed way older than that.


In his new 52 origin he was driving already a motorcycle before he became Robin, so he was probably older than 13 (not sure how old you have to be in the US for drivers license).

Btw. Dick looks also way younger in the Rebirth Flashback than he looked in Tims original Origin story.

But there seems anyway no consistent timeline at the moment. And it would be nice if the writers would try to stick a little closer to the original timeline, if possible and not changing up stuff unnecessarily (like in flashback in the new Nightwing preview).

----------


## yohyoi

I have been enjoying the Nightwing related comics this month. The Judge is so cool. I wish he comes back after this arc. While Titans became enjoyable again. Wally and Dick are the best of all the besties. They don't even have to fight each other (looking at you Supes & Bats). Poor Roy. Blew his chances with Donna again. Maybe we can get Dick & Donna now... Maybe. Okay no. At least we get Lian back, the best we ever got out of Roy and Cheshire combined. Nice. I'm enjoying comics again.

----------


## Rac7d*

> In his new 52 origin he was driving already a motorcycle before he became Robin, so he was probably older than 13 (not sure how old you have to be in the US for drivers license).
> 
> Btw. Dick looks also way younger in the Rebirth Flashback than he looked in Tims original Origin story.
> 
> But there seems anyway no consistent timeline at the moment. And it would be nice if the writers would try to stick a little closer to the original timeline, if possible and not changing up stuff unnecessarily (like in flashback in the new Nightwing preview).


Damian can drive a motorcycle at 10

If there was only 5 years between batans start and new52, rebirth is irrelevant
Yu can only fit so much

first robin 2 years
Teen Titans/Nightwing 3 yr
6 month in he BFC/ baman
6 months later returns to nightwing

new 52 and that would be Dicks estimated time table and him being about 21 at the start of New 52 adding 3 years doesn hurt him or any other chracter except imbetweeners like
Tims generation who are forever peter pan

Tim only has a about year to reinspire batmn, become robin /redrobin, get his but kicked out of the job before her begin by damian and continue with the teen titans, he not really a veteran when he meets steph

----------


## Aahz

> Damian can drive a motorcycle at 10


But Tim was still a civilian at that time.




> new 52 and that would be Dicks estimated time table and him being about 21 at the start of New 52 adding 3 years doesn hurt him or any other chracter except imbetweeners like
> Tims generation who are forever peter pan


But honetly I still don't see what the reason was to suddenly add these 3 years it is not like Damian is now any different than he was when he was 10.

----------


## Rac7d*

> But Tim was still a civilian at that time.
> 
> But honetly I still don't see what the reason was to suddenly add these 3 years it is not like Damian is now any different than he was when he was 10.


Teen Titans Brand

----------


## nightbird

> I have been enjoying the Nightwing related comics this month. The Judge is so cool. I wish he comes back after this arc. While Titans became enjoyable again. Wally and Dick are the best of all the besties. They don't even have to fight each other (looking at you Supes & Bats). Poor Roy. Blew his chances with Donna again. Maybe we can get Dick & Donna now... Maybe. Okay no. At least we get Lian back, the best we ever got out of Roy and Cheshire combined. Nice. I'm enjoying comics again.


At this point I just really hope DC disbands current Titans for good. Wally and Dick should have their own team up book.

----------


## Godlike13

The last two issues of Titans have been low points for Nightwing imo. Between have I disappointed you daddy and daddy won’t let me talk to Donna, just yuck. Absolutely terrible Nightwing. And Judge has been kind of cool in Nightwing, but Nightwing himself has not. Hopefully there is a pay off for his character at some point with this arc.

----------


## CPSparkles

> But Tim was still a civilian at that time.
> 
> But honetly I still don't see what the reason was to suddenly add these 3 years it is not like Damian is now any different than he was when he was 10.


Damian's not too bad Duke is the real puzzler. If he met Bruce before all the others then he should be older or the same age as Dick.

----------


## oasis1313

> Damian's not too bad Duke is the real puzzler. If he met Bruce before all the others then he should be older or the same age as Dick.


DC is so dam sloppy with all this stuff.

----------


## jbmasta

> But Tim was still a civilian at that time.
> 
> But honetly I still don't see what the reason was to suddenly add these 3 years it is not like Damian is now any different than he was when he was 10.


It opens him up to love interest storylines, provided there's a character who can tolerate him and can be that.

----------


## oasis1313

> It opens him up to love interest storylines, provided there's a character who can tolerate him and can be that.


I'm not too sure about that.  Thirteen years old is still jailbait.

----------


## jbmasta

> I'm not too sure about that.  Thirteen years old is still jailbait.


Teenage girls? Jon was able to hang out with Kathy and no one cried foul. Besides, it'd be fun to see Damian doing typical pre-teen/teenager stuff. Trying to cover up there's a girl he's interested in would be hilarious, and so much potential in interactions with Dick (I can so see Damian fishing for ideas while pretending not to) and Jon ("So, how was it?" "Shut up"). Even getting advice from Alfred (who'd be so surprised he'd have to confirm with Bruce or Dick that Damian hasn't gone crazy while being glad about what's happening). Nothing serious needs to happen and clothes can remain completely on.

----------


## Aahz

> It opens him up to love interest storylines, provided there's a character who can tolerate him and can be that.


With him still looking like a 10 year old not really.

----------


## jbmasta

> With him still looking like a 10 year old not really.


I refer you to this.




> Teenage girls? Jon was able to hang out with Kathy and no one cried foul. Besides, it'd be fun to see Damian doing typical pre-teen/teenager stuff. Trying to cover up there's a girl he's interested in would be hilarious, and so much potential in interactions with Dick (I can so see Damian fishing for ideas while pretending not to) and Jon ("So, how was it?" "Shut up"). Even getting advice from Alfred (who'd be so surprised he'd have to confirm with Bruce or Dick that Damian hasn't gone crazy while being glad about what's happening). Nothing serious needs to happen and clothes can remain completely on.

----------


## Waterfall

> So Dick won't take even a figurehead job at Wayne Enterprises to invest any interest in the endeavor that is allowing him to continue his crusade, won't formally accept money--HOWEVER, he steals boats and credit cards from Bruce?


Wally has no job or anyone to turn to so he asked Dick to lend him a hand when he wanted to move to Keystone. I'm pretty sure Dick probably asked Bruce before buying the house and just joked about the whole platinum card thing. Geez, this is basic banter.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a14/1802/c5/a03d2a72f8bf.jpg[/IMG]
Nightwing #42 variant cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a14/1802/c5/a03d2a72f8bf.jpg[/IMG]
> Nightwing #42 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


Isn't issue 42 the "Nightwing goes to Japan because Damian got captured" issue? Maybe PW got the issue wrong. This is more issue 41 than issue 42.

----------


## nightbird

> Isn't issue 42 the "Nightwing goes to Japan because Damian got captured" issue? Maybe PW got the issue wrong. This is more issue 41 than issue 42.


It’s possible.

----------


## oasis1313

The Judge falls up instead of down.  He's rockin' it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1802/86/4a13e81b0f95.jpg[/IMG]
https://twitter.com/buddboetticher

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1802/86/4a13e81b0f95.jpg[/IMG]
> https://twitter.com/buddboetticher


I agree with this.  Otherwise, Dick's blue eyes turn people into jelly and they remember those peepers.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I agree with this.  Otherwise, Dick's blue eyes turn people into jelly and they remember those peepers.


I still remember his first kill , was just giving a woman a look that made her crash his bike

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> I still remember his first kill , was just giving a woman a look that made her crash his bike


Sigh, good times. Good times.

----------


## Frontier

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1802/86/4a13e81b0f95.jpg[/IMG]
> https://twitter.com/buddboetticher


I would actually be really interested to see a live-action Superhero movie that ran with the white-eyed domino mask look.

----------


## brucekent12

Make it happen Mr. McKay, the white eyes would look totally cool!

----------


## yohyoi

> [IMG]https://b.***********/b20/1802/86/4a13e81b0f95.jpg[/IMG]
> https://twitter.com/buddboetticher


Lenses/ white eyes is better. It protects their eyes and gives vision tech like Iron Man's vision.

----------


## yohyoi

Why is Dick so nice? Probably my most favorite aspect of him. He is up there with Clark in niceness. Nightwing is like a combination of the best of Superman and Batman, but he started as the OG Robin. Quite amazing if you think about it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://b.***********/b18/1802/fe/37609a850396.jpg[/IMG]
https://wwprice1.tumblr.com/post/171...by-michael-cho

[IMG]https://b.***********/b34/1802/67/8ba4d65ea00d.jpg[/IMG]
http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/post/171...ot-to-show-you

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ghtwing-in-may

Benjamin Percy, formerly of Rebirth Green Arrow, is taking over Nightwing with #44.

----------


## Alycat

> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ghtwing-in-may
> 
> Benjamin Percy, formerly of Rebirth Green Arrow, is taking over Nightwing with #44.


On one hand his Green Arrow was okay on the other his Teen Titans were ugh.

----------


## Waterfall

The book is also going monthly as well.

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ghtwing-in-may
> 
> Benjamin Percy, formerly of Rebirth Green Arrow, is taking over Nightwing with #44.


Isn't Percy the one who wrote Dick torturing someone during the Grayson era? 

Although his approach here sounds solid.

----------


## Pohzee

So now we have the guy who not only wrote the crappy Green Arrow and Teen Titans series

But also wrote a Dick Grayson who electrocuted people and ripped their teeth out?

Greeeeaaaaaat

----------


## TheCape

> So now we have the guy who not only wrote the crappy Green Arrow and Teen Titans series
> 
> But also wrote a Dick Grayson who electrocuted people and ripped their teeth out?
> 
> Greeeeaaaaaat


Ohhh thanks for that Arrow panel, Percy attemps to be deep and failing miserably always bring me joy  :Smile: .

----------


## nightbird

DC is not even trying to elevate Nightwing’s book, huh.

Surprised that Humphries wrote just one ark.

----------


## Aioros22

So H was only in for an arc? That`s odd.

----------


## Assam

> So H was only in for an arc? That`s odd.


Super nettled about this news. Humphries left GLs because Nightwing was a book he really wanted to write and he didn't even get to stick around. And now Percy's been pulled off GA so he can take over. DC's not knowing what to do with Nightwing is causing me to drop books left and right.

----------


## Red obin

I looked up Christopher Mooneyham, who is on art, and he looks completely wrong for nightwing, especially in rebirth. It is a shame Declan Shavley is only on covers, as I didn't mind his signal stuff and think it could work better for nightwing than mooneyham's tone.

----------


## Frontier

I wonder what's going to happen to Humphries now.

----------


## nightbird

> So H was only in for an arc? That`s odd.


His interviews were full of excitement, so I guess he wanted to write more, but some shake ups in books after Rebirth forced him out. 

I’m actually more disappointed we lost Chang and his art for Mooneyham.

----------


## Alycat

DC finally remembering that they have no idea about what to do with Nightwing. Its ashame.

----------


## Godlike13

Uhg, seems DC is struggling to find creators to take over Nightwing. That's not good, not good at all. Though it is possible that they don't want anyone one Nightwing long term right now because they have a shake up coming.

----------


## Rac7d*

This is the nightwing appreciation thread right

----------


## Pohzee

> This is the nightwing appreciation thread right


But it ain't the Ben Percy appreciation thread.

----------


## Badou

I thought Humphries would stay on longer, but I'm not completely surprised he would leave. It is a good time to jump to another book as DC is shaking things up. I wouldn't want to be stuck writing Bludhaven stories either if given the chance to leave. I've read some of Percy's GA run and I thought he did some nice things there, but I haven't read enough to really judge well. Nightiwng is still stuck in Bludhaven so I think there is always going to be a cap to how good his stories can be because of that. 

I will miss Chang's art. He was a nice surprise for me on the book even if I found Humphries stories a bit standard. I don't know much about Mooneyham's art but overall the art for Nightiwng has generally been okay so I am not that worried.

----------


## The World

While constant writer shakeups are usually a sign that the company has no idea what to do with a character at the same time I liked what Percy was saying about Nightwing and the villain he's bringing sounds interesting. Frankly I've always hoped that Bludhaven would become a sort of futuristic Cyber Punk style city to contrast with the Gothic Victorian brick and mortar look of Gotham. That promo art looks cool as well.

Shame though I liked the Judge and I hope he's a reoccuring villain, loved Chang's art as well.

----------


## Rac7d*

Is nightwing gonna stop being bimonthly?

----------


## Godlike13

Seems like it. Which makes sense given the jumbling creative teams.

----------


## Godlike13

The Dark Web comes to DC in Benjamin Percy’s Nightwing comics

Doesn't sound awful, but it also sounds more like a launchpad then a direction for the Nightwing series going forward.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Seems like it. Which makes sense given the jumbling creative teams.


well shit, should i save teh 3 buck or try somthing new

----------


## Assam

> well shit, should i save teh 3 buck or try somthing new


Depends. Are you reading NSMatJLC or Doom Patrol? If not, definitely try those.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> So now we have the guy who not only wrote the crappy Green Arrow and Teen Titans series
> 
> But also wrote a Dick Grayson who electrocuted people and ripped their teeth out?
> 
> Greeeeaaaaaat


Is there some larger context to this? Because that is just atrocious.

I'm not bummed that Humphries is leaving because I haven't read his run yet and don't really plan to (money is tight and nothing in it grabs me), but this doesn't sound like a great change either. It seems Nightwing is sliding right back into the pre-_Grayson_ rut. It was short sighted of them to stick him back in Bludhaven when it ran out of steam a loooooong time ago (and was arguably never that great to begin with). It's far from the only problem here, but it definitely seems like the most glaring.

----------


## Godlike13

No one knew what Dick Grayson as a spy was yet.

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone feel like DC is really pushing to increase Nightwing's rogue gallery these past years? 

I don't want to sound too hopeful; but with the Nightwing movie and Titans series, DC is prioritizing Dick Grayson's rise to stardom. A few more great villains and Dick could hold his own tv series better than Green Arrow or any other low A-list. I could see a decade from now a possible cartoon Nightwing tv series away from Batman.

----------


## yohyoi

Another topic is Bludhaven and how awesome it has become since Rebirth. I love Dixon's "worse than Gotham" Bludhaven, but I gotta agree the city is a lot more interesting now.

Seeley recreated Dixon's BH but with a gambling and social inequality mix. Humphries took Seeley's idea and dialled it up to 200 and he showed the city's darkness better than Seeley. I'm waiting how Percy combines this neon infused dystopia with his cyber-horror space.

Bludhaven is near with Gotham now with how the city defines the hero. And to tell you the truth, there is no better place for The Dark Web to show itself. The Court of Owls is the Illuminati of old Gotham, while the Dark Web maybe the Matrix/Skynet of the dark side of humanity born in jungle of neon lights, Bludhaven.

----------


## Ascended

Not sure how I feel about Percy being on the book.

His Arrow isn't bad, but its heavy handed as hell and the dialogue is clunky and preachy. Considering the character, it actually fits pretty well, but can Percy shift his style enough to fit Nightwing? 

We'll see I guess. I trade wait, and I'm even behind on those now, so it's not a problem I gotta deal with for quite a while.

----------


## yohyoi

> This is the nightwing appreciation thread right


Nightwing fans tends to be the most level headed fandom in comics. They don't praise things just because their favorite character is there (looking at you Red Hood and Batman crazy fans). I actually appreciate the honesty and no blind devotion for anything Nightwing. It's better that way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Depends. Are you reading NSMatJLC or Doom Patrol? If not, definitely try those.


Beast Boy should go back to Doom Patrol

----------


## G-Potion

> Nightwing fans tends to be the most level headed fandom in comics. They don't praise things just because their favorite character is there (looking at you Red Hood and Batman crazy fans). I actually appreciate the honesty and no blind devotion for anything Nightwing. It's better that way.


You also said before,




> In the end this is just my opinion, but his fanbase is really full of teenage edgelords.


Get off your high horse please. Who are you to say what Red Hood fans think and why they like what they like. If you consider yourself a Dick Grayson fan, are you aware of how these petty cheap shots make yourself look like? You don't see us talk trash about Dick fans in our thread yes?

----------


## nightbird

> Anyone feel like DC is really pushing to increase Nightwing's rogue gallery these past years? 
> 
> I don't want to sound too hopeful; but with the Nightwing movie and Titans series, DC is prioritizing Dick Grayson's rise to stardom. A few more great villains and Dick could hold his own tv series better than Green Arrow or any other low A-list. I could see a decade from now a possible cartoon Nightwing tv series away from Batman.


The problem with Nightwing’s villains and supporting cast, that  writers trend to ignore each other’s work. I wonder how soon we will see them using Raptor or/and Judge again.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing fans tends to be the most level headed fandom in comics. They don't praise things just because their favorite character is there (looking at you Red Hood and Batman crazy fans). I actually appreciate the honesty and no blind devotion for anything Nightwing. It's better that way.


I think Nightwing fans remain in a perpetual state of guarded optimism--they love Dick Grayson like he was their own child and always want the best for him.  If any other character at DC was as popular as Dick Grayson in SPITE of the terrible treatment he's received for decades, that character would have his/her own "family" or "line" of books by now.

----------


## Claude

Not thrilled at Percy, but in fairness to the man after his pretty awful 'Tec fill-in and Green Arrow runs he's improved quite a bit. The issues of his Teen Titans I read managed to be actually quite vibrant and fun, which is something that title really needed.

And... I _know_ we wish this every time, but if this is a Didio requested "new threat to the DCU" launching out of "Nightwing", it gives us a better than usual chance of Dick taking a big role in events outside of his own title. Especially with Percy talking about Dick being central to the "superhero web".

Given the story seems to be about, among other things, identity theft - and Percy's talked about Dick's "off the grid" status as well as remembering his time as a spy in his career rundown, I wonder if we'll build on Dick's time at Spyral at all? It would certainly have given him a good skillset for this, if they want to acknowledge it.

----------


## yohyoi

Damn, I heard Nightwing movie is not a priority. Looks like we will be waiting for a while. Good news is it is not rushed. So if we ever get Nightwing movie, hopefully the DCEU is better received during that time. As I said before, it is better to have no Nightwing movie than one that sucks.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Damn, I heard Nightwing movie is not a priority. Looks like we will be waiting for a while. Good news is it is not rushed. So if we ever get Nightwing movie, hopefully the DCEU is better received during that time. As I said before, it is better to have no Nightwing movie than one that sucks.


Yup, WB is super fragile right now, and isn't in a position to act with confidence. I'm fine with them focusing on the things they are confident will be successful and fill their own niche (Batgirl, for example) then to try Nightwing and screw it up.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yeah Nightwing should get made but DC doesn’t have a Feige to tell them a Joker Origin movie, a Lobo Michael Bay Movie, or a Old Batman are not wise decisions when building a cinematic universe. I hope the Digital Series is Star Trek Discovery level in terms of Film Work and not CW.

----------


## Godlike13

> The problem with Nightwings villains and supporting cast, that  writers trend to ignore each others work. I wonder how soon we will see them using Raptor or/and Judge again.


This is also a potential problem with quickly changing creative teams. Itll be interesting to see how much of anything carries over, like Dicks new job for instance.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Not thrilled at Percy, but in fairness to the man after his pretty awful 'Tec fill-in and Green Arrow runs he's improved quite a bit. The issues of his Teen Titans I read managed to be actually quite vibrant and fun, which is something that title really needed.
> 
> And... I _know_ we wish this every time, but if this is a Didio requested "new threat to the DCU" launching out of "Nightwing", it gives us a better than usual chance of Dick taking a big role in events outside of his own title. Especially with Percy talking about Dick being central to the "superhero web".
> 
> Given the story seems to be about, among other things, identity theft - and Percy's talked about Dick's "off the grid" status as well as remembering his time as a spy in his career rundown, I wonder if we'll build on Dick's time at Spyral at all? It would certainly have given him a good skillset for this, if they want to acknowledge it.


It is very possible they will at least nod to it. I believe Percy actually did make a brief reference to Dick's time as a spy during his EW interview.

As far as Percy goes, it's true his last brush with the character was ... problematic. But, I think that was a case of editorial mismanagement more than anything else. After all, Percy's TEC issues were commissioned right around the time Dick went into Spyral and nobody seemed to know, exactly, what that meant. All he had to go on was "Spyral, creepy insane organization, very ruthless, at best fights fire with fire." So he just made something up that fit the overall tone of his story. And remember, the early plans for the Seely/King run were for the story to be much darker than it actually ended up, so Percy may easily have misunderstood where things were headed. It was the job of the editor to go, "Now hold on, that doesn't fit what we are trying to do with Grayson. You really need to change this and that and the other thing."  Had the editor done so, I'm sure Percy would have complied professionally.

But, as long as we are on the subject of those TEC issues, Percy has shown a talent for actually writing detective stories. In fact, as I recall his TEC fill ins were widely praised, Grayson sequence aside, because they were the kind of interesting detective stories that hadn't shown up in Batman comics for a while. More detective focused fiction might be a good fit for Nightwing, and yes, does provide a context in which to introduce Spyral stuff.

Meanwhile, rumors persist of plans for TITANS, TEEN TITANS, SUPERGIRL, and SUPER SONS. Maybe there will be announcements next week at Emerald City Comic Con.

----------


## nightbird

> Yup, WB is super fragile right now, and isn't in a position to act with confidence. I'm fine with them focusing on the things they are confident will be successful and fill their own niche (Batgirl, for example) then to try Nightwing and screw it up.


I fail to see how Batgirl movie is a safer bet than Nightwing. 




> Yeah Nightwing should get made but DC doesn’t have a Feige to tell them a Joker Origin movie, a Lobo Michael Bay Movie, or a Old Batman are not wise decisions when building a cinematic universe. I hope the Digital Series is Star Trek Discovery level in terms of Film Work and not CW.


Based on costumes (so far)  and some actors, I think budged will be bigger and Titans also will have lesser episodes in one season compared to CW shows. I want to see Beast Boy, Starfire and Raven before I start to build my opinion about what to expect from the Titans shows.

----------


## nightbird

> This is also a potential problem with quickly changing creative teams. It’ll be interesting to see how much of anything carries over, like Dick’s new job for instance.


You right. I don’t remember anything except him being cop ever stuck around as status quo for more than one (or two) creative teams.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I fail to see how Batgirl movie is a safer bet than Nightwing.


Just by being a girl and being potentially aimed at girls makes Batgirl less of a retread of Batman than Nightwing appears to be. 

Again, this is just on the highest surface level, trying to think like a WB suit.

----------


## Godlike13

> You right. I don’t remember anything except him being cop ever stuck around as status quo for more than one (or two) creative teams.


Well that time the creator made it a point to systematically tear down everything that was previously built.

----------


## Frontier

I'm still curious if WB is going to move forward with Whedon on Batgirl, especially in light of _Justice League_ and that Whedon is a little more controversial now then he was when his involvement was first announced.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I'm still curious if WB is going to move forward with Whedon on Batgirl, especially in light of _Justice League_ and that Whedon is a little more controversial now then he was when his involvement was first announced.


From all reports we have heard, Whedon is definitely still on Batgirl, he already turned in a draft and just yesterday that and the flashpoint film are what DC is focusing on after aquaman and shazam.

My guess is they are waiting to see how batgirl does before moving on to nightwing

----------


## Fergus

Surprised to see Percy is going to be the new writer. What happened to Humphries? I want to b optimistic about Percy since I like his GA but I remember he had Dick pull someone's teeth or some crap like that.

----------


## Badou

> I fail to see how Batgirl movie is a safer bet than Nightwing.


Batgirl is still a more well known brand than Nightwing, imo. So they probably look at it as a safer bet and they know they can market it to girls. Plus Batgirl more distant from Batman where Dick isn't and they have to figure out what they want to do with Batman before they do anything with Nightwing probably.

----------


## Pohzee

I think that Dick's time at Hudson or his transition to Nightwing in general would make for a good DC Ink novel.

----------


## Frontier

> I think that Dick's time at Hudson or his transition to Nightwing in general would make for a good DC Ink novel.


I'm curious if there'll be a Robin/Dick novel as one of the Titans books.

----------


## Badou

> I think that Dick's time at Hudson or his transition to Nightwing in general would make for a good DC Ink novel.


I guess it depends which version they go with. I'm not a fan of Dick and Bruce having some big falling out and Dick gets fried or leaves. I don't have much interest in more stories around that, but I guess that is what most writers tend to go with now.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> From all reports we have heard, Whedon is definitely still on Batgirl, he already turned in a draft and just yesterday that and the flashpoint film are what DC is focusing on after aquaman and shazam.
> 
> My guess is they are waiting to see how batgirl does before moving on to nightwing


I really hope Nightwing isn't dependent on BG, and wish DC would move on from Joss. Just seems like another example of WB being behind the eight ball, and they won't realize until its too late and social media is flush with stories on the comments from his ex wife right before opening night.

----------


## Frontier

> I guess it depends which version they go with. I'm not a fan of Dick and Bruce having some big falling out and Dick gets fried or leaves. I don't have much interest in more stories around that, but I guess that is what most writers tend to go with now.


I have a hard time seeing anything but a falling out happening with DCEU Bruce and Dick, at least as the former was depicted in BvS.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nightwing fans tends to be the most level headed fandom in comics. They don't praise things just because their favorite character is there (looking at you Red Hood and Batman crazy fans). I actually appreciate the honesty and no blind devotion for anything Nightwing. It's better that way.


Haha. 

Anyone who goes to the Red Hood thread can tell you`re being a mark with this statement with the discussions we tend to go with things that aren`t and haven`t worked or even how Office barely promotes anything related to the book. Are we happy that Loedbell _has been_ handling a more consistantly quality Rebirth title? You bet. 

Thanks for the consideration.

----------


## Alycat

Nightwing fans aren't more level-headed than any other types of fans, especially since we all have a different aspect or part we like or how we feel like Dick should be portrayed. Like, when Grayson was running. It was quite divided.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> *Nightwing* fans aren't more level-headed than any other types of fans, especially since we all have a different aspect or part we like or how we feel like Dick should be portrayed. Like, when Grayson was running. It was quite divided.


I think it may be more accurate to just call all of us Dick Grayson fans.

Nightwing isn't everybody's favorite aspect of him.

----------


## oasis1313

> I fail to see how Batgirl movie is a safer bet than Nightwing.


That, and the fact that the Wonder Woman movie was the hit DC so desperately needed, executive reasoning at DC would say, "Yeah, we need to follow up with another female protagonist yesterday!!!!!"  Plus Whedon is a big deal.  The Gambit movie from Marvel has sunk beneath the waves (yet again), so I'm not optimistic for a Nightwing movie--especially since the individual Justice League member movies are a big priority.  A lot of properties get semi-sold in Hollywood, but most of them don't get made.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Just by being a girl and being potentially aimed at girls makes Batgirl less of a retread of Batman than Nightwing appears to be. 
> 
> Again, this is just on the highest surface level, trying to think like a WB suit.



this is so right unfortunately
 I don't mind it either, esp if nightwing gets to be her steve trevor and not die, the importatnt thing is to get nightwing on the big screen, and out their, one he is their BOOM!!!

----------


## Alycat

> I think it may be more accurate to just call all of us Dick Grayson fans.
> 
> Nightwing isn't everybody's favorite aspect of him.


That's a good point. I admit my favorite Dick stories are not when he's Nightwing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's a good point. I admit my favorite Dick stories are not when he's Nightwing.


robin, batman
or did you not like dick until grayson so very recent

----------


## Alycat

> robin, batman
> or did you not like dick until grayson so very recent


I liked 90s Nightwing stuff and Titans just fine. I just think his Time as Batman and Grayson were way more interesting.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick Grayson since 1954. I hate to admit it, but I have Dan Didio to thank for the excellent "Grayson" book and if I ever saw him at comic-con, I'd have to suck it up and apologize (OR avoid him altogether).  It's the most positive I've felt during any run of Dick books.  Dick was doing cool new things, looking good, AND written as the hero he is--showcased, as it were.  Now he's back in the dump called Bludhaven--which he is far too good for.

----------


## nightbird

> Batgirl is still a more well known brand than Nightwing, imo. So they probably look at it as a safer bet and they know they can market it to girls. Plus Batgirl more distant from Batman where Dick isn't and they have to figure out what they want to do with Batman before they do anything with Nightwing probably.


Batgirl has a “Bat” on her name. To make her profitable they need to make current version of Bats profitable first. She is not a bigger property for WB than Nightwing, woman or not. They both deeply depend on Bats. And she just lost a director, for better or worse, just like Nightwing could be possibly pushed back (/or cancelled) due to McKay (also possibly) moving on to do D&D movie instead.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> That's a good point. I admit my favorite Dick stories are not when he's Nightwing.


Yes, he will always be Robin first and foremost to me. Then Agent 37, and Batman II.

Early Nightwing in the Titans was good, especially with the pre-Crisis Superman connection, but the property started it's gradual decline when Perez left regular art duties like immediately after _the Judas Contract_. So I think Nightwing-with-the-Titans doesn't have a long period of greatness compared to Dick as Robin, the identity he was in for the majority of Perez's involvement. And I've never cared for solo vigilante in Bludhaven.

----------


## Badou

> Batgirl has a “Bat” on her name. To make her profitable they need to make current version of Bats profitable first. She is not a bigger property for WB than Nightwing, woman or not. They both deeply depend on Bats. And she just lost a director, for better or worse, just like Nightwing could be possibly pushed back (/or cancelled) due to McKay (also possibly) moving on to do D&D movie instead.


What makes you say Batgirl isn't a bigger property? The Batgirl brand is clearly bigger than Nightwing's given how they use the character in other media. Not bigger than Robin but Batgirl is bigger than Nighwing I think. Batgirl is DC's 3rd biggest female property behind Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn probably.

----------


## oasis1313

I think DC will be anxious to get another female character onto celluloid after Wonder Woman and Harley already has her own project going.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What makes you say Batgirl isn't a bigger property? The Batgirl brand is clearly bigger than Nightwing's given how they use the character in other media. Not bigger than Robin but Batgirl is bigger than Nighwing I think. Batgirl is DC's 3rd biggest female property behind Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn probably.


she really is

feminist Icon

----------


## Moonwix

> What makes you say Batgirl isn't a bigger property? The Batgirl brand is clearly bigger than Nightwing's given how they use the character in other media. Not bigger than Robin but Batgirl is bigger than Nighwing I think. Batgirl is DC's 3rd biggest female property behind Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn probably.


She isn't.  It's  supergirl. Batgirl is a very very very  distant 4th. Raven and starfire already rivals her in popularity.

----------


## Caivu

Dustin Nguyen's wraparound cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

----------


## nightbird

> What makes you say Batgirl isn't a bigger property? The Batgirl brand is clearly bigger than Nightwing's given how they use the character in other media. Not bigger than Robin but Batgirl is bigger than Nighwing I think. Batgirl is DC's 3rd biggest female property behind Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn probably.


For WB. In the time when they have no idea what to do with their bigger properties like Flash and Batman, Batgirl hardly has any leverage over Nightwing. Maybe in the future it will change, but right now, they’re, imo, equal in “DCEU importance scale”.

----------


## Rac7d*

ther you have it Chris Mckay is dedicated and willing, but nightwings brand is not a priority for dc at the moment. I hope they follow through with the Batgirl movie right away, she is close enough to dick to bring attention to the chracter

----------


## Aioros22

Considering the name attached to Batgirl you're setting yourself some dissapointment if you think Nigthwing is a bigger prospect for WB. 

She also has something Grayson lacks, a definite clear connection to Joker..a character WB absolutely loves. 

The saving grace would be if they played his connections to Deadstroke who we know will be used but you need the Titans for that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Considering the name attached to Batgirl you're setting yourself some dissapointment if you think Nigthwing is a bigger prospect for WB. 
> 
> She also has something Grayson lacks, a definite clear connection to Joker..a character WB absolutely loves. 
> 
> The saving grace would be if they played his connections to Deadstroke who we know will be used but you need the Titans for that.


nah last year it was clear despite the success and popularity of TeeN Titans animated series, deathstroke cannot be wasted on dick grayson or titans chracters, so in both lazarus comics and the judas contract movie, nightwing/robin(dick) is outclassed, outmaneuvered and humiliated by him in every panel or sceane they share.   I guess to make deathstroke the brand of villain they want to he can only play with batman, supes and wonderwoman, making basicly an evil captain America for WB if they choose.

So we can forget about slade being dicks' nemesis

----------


## nightbird

> Considering the name attached to Batgirl you're setting yourself some dissapointment if you think Nigthwing is a bigger prospect for WB. 
> 
> She also has something Grayson lacks, a definite clear connection to Joker..a character WB absolutely loves. 
> 
> The saving grace would be if they played his connections to Deadstroke who we know will be used but you need the Titans for that.


If by “the name” you mean Whedon, he just left the project. Which leaves Batgirl with an unclear future, same (like I said before) with  Nightwing.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah well Jim, it`s dead.

----------


## Aioros22

Damn. 

"Batgirl is such an exciting project, and Warners/DC such collaborative and supportive partners, that it took me months to realize I really didn't have a story."

Dead and buried. If missing a story to sell the movie looks to be the biggest issue, it doesn`t bode that well to "Nigthwing" either.

----------


## Aahz

I don't think that they should make DCEU movies with Nightwing and Batgirl untill they have sorted out what to do with Batman, otherwise they will end up with a total mess.

----------


## nightbird

> Damn. 
> 
> "Batgirl is such an exciting project, and Warners/DC such collaborative and supportive partners, that it took me months to realize I really didn't have a story."
> 
> Dead and buried. If missing a story to sell the movie looks to be the biggest issue, it doesn`t bode that well to "Nigthwing" either.


They’re running around a bit like headless chickens.

----------


## nightbird

> I don't think that they should make DCEU movies with Nightwing and Batgirl untill they have sorted out what to do with Batman, otherwise they will end up with a total mess.


So should they debut in Bats’ movie as supporting cast/cameo or get their solos before to get audience familiar with them? I mean read people saying that JL had too many new players about whom general audience knew nothing, therefore they didn’t care about them.

----------


## nightbird

http://bingding.info/nightwing-direc...ess-hes-fired/

At least, I hope he is not giving Nightwing fans empty hopes.

----------


## Rac7d*

> http://bingding.info/nightwing-direc...ess-hes-fired/
> 
> At least, I hope he is not giving Nightwing fans empty hopes.


Have a little faith

----------


## Pohzee

It's not McKay that I'm worried about backing out.

----------


## oasis1313

> Considering the name attached to Batgirl you're setting yourself some dissapointment if you think Nigthwing is a bigger prospect for WB. 
> 
> She also has something Grayson lacks, a definite clear connection to Joker..a character WB absolutely loves. 
> 
> The saving grace would be if they played his connections to Deadstroke who we know will be used but you need the Titans for that.


They already did their wretched cartoon of "The Killing Joke."  Hopefully they won't be eager to re-do it in live action, and that's pretty much the only connection Barbara actually has to the Joker--and it wasn't even a permanent injury.

----------


## Rac7d*

> They already did their wretched cartoon of "The Killing Joke."  Hopefully they won't be eager to re-do it in live action, and that's pretty much the only connection Barbara actually has to the Joker--and it wasn't even a permanent injury.


she is still paralyzed, what the joker did was permanent and still effects her to this day

----------


## oasis1313

> she is still paralyzed, what the joker did was permanent and still effects her to this day


Thanks for that info, dude!  It makes me feel better when DC manages to refrain from screwing up a big event like TKJ and losing a great character like Oracle.  I was afraid they'd trivialized it by having her suddenly cured with no explanation.  Whew!

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a42/1802/15/f02c1161adca.jpg[/IMG]
https://pp.userapi.com/c841238/v8412...fQG_uBCrSk.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a42/1802/15/f02c1161adca.jpg[/IMG]
> https://pp.userapi.com/c841238/v8412...fQG_uBCrSk.jpg


That's freaking awesome.

----------


## Elmo

> http://bingding.info/nightwing-direc...ess-hes-fired/
> 
> At least, I hope he is not giving Nightwing fans empty hopes.


Man, just the simple fact that a die hard Nightwing fan and an established filmmaker wants to make a Nightwing movie should be enough to lighten people's spirits

Even if it doesn't get made just that alone should warm people's hearts. Someone cares enough about Dick to want to see him on the big screen

but all people can do is be paranoid and negative about it coming out

why can't we just be happy that this dude wants to make it

----------


## Aahz

> So should they debut in Bats movie as supporting cast/cameo or get their solos before to get audience familiar with them? I mean read people saying that JL had too many new players about whom general audience knew nothing, therefore they didnt care about them.


Not necessarily, but they need before to put someone in charge who works out a coherent concept and history for the Batfamily in that universe.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Omg. It's actually making me thirsty. Look at this gorgeous boy  :Embarrassment:  

tumblr_inline_p4mjjomjYI1qgsm0y_1280.jpg



https://13thdimension.com/this-dazzl...twing-to-life/

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a27/1802/99/89f13c889423.jpg[/IMG]
Variant cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## CPSparkles

He ain't heavy. He's my brother.
Dick really is the best

----------


## CPSparkles

> Omg. It's actually making me thirsty. Look at this gorgeous boy  
> 
> Attachment 62594
> 
> 
> 
> https://13thdimension.com/this-dazzl...twing-to-life/


oh nice Dick has some great Action figures.

----------


## TomServofan

Who thinks Burt Ward was great casting for the character for the 60's show?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> oh nice Dick has some great Action figures.


It's fantastic. The people making it are also making classic Deathstroke, Cyborg and Raven. I'm going to try get all of them but admittedly Raven looks a bit odd. Still it's my favourite Raven look and it's part of a set  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Comic Book Addict

Pretty solid issue of Nightwing this week, told largely in flashback.

----------


## yash

> Pretty solid issue of Nightwing this week, told largely in flashback.


 yeah it was good, the art i felt was inconsistent though

----------


## oasis1313

> He ain't heavy. He's my brother.
> Dick really is the best


Dick should start his own moving business.  He's carrying--what--300 pounds here?

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Gonna bless you guys with this for the day.

https://twitter.com/kylerclodfelter/...36060827426817

IMG_0722.jpg

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c41/1802/16/375232c27ee8.jpg[/IMG]
https://kuromameo.tumblr.com/post/171111246984/べすとふれんど

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Omg. It's actually making me thirsty. Look at this gorgeous boy  
> 
> Attachment 62594
> 
> 
> 
> https://13thdimension.com/this-dazzl...twing-to-life/


that is amazing!!

----------


## Badou

> http://bingding.info/nightwing-direc...ess-hes-fired/
> 
> At least, I hope he is not giving Nightwing fans empty hopes.


Yeah, this movie is never happening. I just don't see a path for it or DC/WB caring enough to make it given how things are right now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, this movie is never happening. I just don't see a path for it or DC/WB caring enough to make it given how things are right now.


Have a little faith
and if Dick is used in the batgirl movie, nightwing will happen for sure

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah, this movie is never happening. I just don't see a path for it or DC/WB caring enough to make it given how things are right now.


We'll just have to keep a "wait and see" attitude about it.  That the Batgirl movie has hit such a snag with Whedon might even be good for it.

----------


## Badou

I mean maybe a movie down the road will happen, although unlikely, but what I think McKay has been working on and envisioned for a movie isn't going to happen. Not in that form. I think he realizes that and is moving on to other projects as DC/WB focuses on other things too. Maybe in a few years when DC does a Batman movie they will go back to it but I think McKay will have to start over from complete scratch because the DCEU will be different then too.

----------


## Aioros22

> They already did their wretched cartoon of "The Killing Joke." Hopefully they won't be eager to re-do it in live action, and that's pretty much the only connection Barbara actually has to the Joker--and it wasn't even a permanent injury


The injury doesn`t need to be permanent, it`s just an easier pitch because it`s a big story involving Joker which is a character the filmakers love to do. 

With Dick, the movie discussion almost always boils down to one thang: does he have "that" pitch? That`s the main concern in my eyes.

----------


## Aioros22

Discowing is best Wing, ftw  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a42/1802/15/f02c1161adca.jpg[/IMG]
> https://pp.userapi.com/c841238/v8412...fQG_uBCrSk.jpg


Oh I need this in the other Thread. Any way we can have the artist source?

----------


## G-Potion

Soure here 

https://weibo.com/shikabu?refer_flag=1005055013_ 

We already had it in the other thread though.

----------


## RedBird

> Omg. It's actually making me thirsty. Look at this gorgeous boy  
> 
> Attachment 62594
> 
> 
> 
> https://13thdimension.com/this-dazzl...twing-to-life/


Gasp

I must have it  :Big Grin: 

Seriously that statue looks _really_ good

----------


## oasis1313

> Gasp
> 
> I must have it 
> 
> Seriously that statue looks _really_ good


One of the things I like about the statue is that the "yellow parts" painted a brushed gold --SO much better than the daffodil look.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## CPSparkles

http://batsori.tumblr.com

----------


## CPSparkles

> 


This is great.  I want a partnership teamup with these. How cool would it have been to have them b the ones who rescued Timmy? Much better story than what we ended up getting.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> This is great.  I want a partnership teamup with these. How cool would it have been to have them b the ones who rescued Timmy? Much better story than what we ended up getting.


Tynion would have Damian as a cliche, Jason as a fake Raphael, and Dick would spend his time taking about Harper Row

----------


## Shadow Myyst

Hahaha
https://twitter.com/_gabrielpicolo/s...32109211504640IMG_0728.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hahaha
> https://twitter.com/_gabrielpicolo/s...32109211504640IMG_0728.jpg


never gonna live this down

----------


## Pohzee

I'm really hoping Picolo gets around to drawing Dick for the TT Ink series.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tynion would have Damian as a cliche, Jason as a fake Raphael, and Dick would spend his time taking about Harper Row


Isn't that the truth?  The thing I liked best about this pic is that Timmy Wimmy isn't in it.

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c41/1802/13/f1b0fc5c9b52.jpg[/IMG]

http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/post/171...-know-ill-fuck

----------


## nightbird

B45631A6-61FD-4326-A540-F96E37B7B350.jpg

ACE813A2-A3C1-41E2-AC7F-E8F283BDDF70.jpg

9AA135E9-6DDE-44B4-ADDB-152238834A93.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfqnahqAlC2/
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bfqn7VyADrN/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BfqoaPQAP5U/

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://c.***********/c41/1802/13/f1b0fc5c9b52.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/post/171...-know-ill-fuck


What is that on Jason's head?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> What is that on Jason's head?


It is a reed hood.

----------


## oasis1313

> It is a reed hood.


You kill me  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: .

----------


## byrd156

> You kill me .


No Jason is the one who kills.

----------


## oasis1313

> No Jason is the one who kills.


Does he still do that, or has the rest of the family succeeded in neutering him by now?

----------


## BloodOps

Caught up with a few of the last Nightwing issues...not really liking what we have got so far. I already miss Seeley and Fernandez's art.

I enjoyed the Starfire cameo in this week's issue though.

----------


## byrd156

> Does he still do that, or has the rest of the family succeeded in neutering him by now?


Honestly don't know. I've been pretty behind on comic news and everything because of school. I have barely been on the CBR boards for a while now. 

What has been happening with Dick as of late? I know about the Judge but I have only read his first issue.

----------


## oasis1313

> Honestly don't know. I've been pretty behind on comic news and everything because of school. I have barely been on the CBR boards for a while now. 
> 
> What has been happening with Dick as of late? I know about the Judge but I have only read his first issue.


I wish I could tell you, friend.  I have no clue what any of it's about these days, just buying the book to support the character.

----------


## Aioros22

> Does he still do that, or has the rest of the family succeeded in neutering him by now?


At the chance of having another post deleted, he`s going by the middle ground and so far has respected Bruce`s wish in Gotham.

----------


## oasis1313

> At the chance of having another post deleted, he`s going by the middle ground and so far has respected Bruce`s wish in Gotham.


So it's okay to kill everywhere except in Gotham City?  Cool beans!

----------


## Rac7d*

I reallly like them

----------


## oasis1313

I apologize if I sound rude (no intent), but why is there a picture of Tim Dreck on the Dick Grayson Appreciation Page?

----------


## WonderNight

that's YJ dick and zatanna.

----------


## oasis1313

> that's YJ dick and zatanna.


Thanks for pointing that out for me; I hadn't seen that YJ stuff and it looked like Tim's outfit.  And for letting me know that's Zatanna--I thought it was Donna or something.

----------


## jbmasta

> I apologize if I sound rude (no intent), but why is there a picture of Tim Dreck on the Dick Grayson Appreciation Page?


You mean Tim Drake, and the picture shows the season 1 Dick from Young Justice. He's Robin in season 1, and Nightwing after the time skip before season 2. The season one finale ends on a new year, and since he wasn't paired up with anyone Zatanna got the traditional kiss.

----------


## Ascended

As I recall, the two of them also dated at some point during the time skip, but broke up before season 2 began. 

YJ Grayson started breaking hearts early.  :Smile:

----------


## Ascended

> Thanks for pointing that out for me; I hadn't seen that YJ stuff and it looked like Tim's outfit.  And for letting me know that's Zatanna--I thought it was Donna or something.


If you haven't seen Young Justice, you haven't lived.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Best version of the DCU since.....New Frontier I suppose, if not pre-Crisis. Certainly better than the movies or the comics themselves.

----------


## oasis1313

> If you haven't seen Young Justice, you haven't lived. 
> 
> Best version of the DCU since.....New Frontier I suppose, if not pre-Crisis. Certainly better than the movies or the comics themselves.


I've had the DVD's at home for years, just haven't had time to watch them, didn't want to have to look at Tim Dreck.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I've had the DVD's at home for years, just haven't had time to watch them, didn't want to have to look at Tim Dreck.


He's not in season 1. Treat yourself :Smile:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He's not in season 1. Treat yourself


And even when he is, I don't recall him having a huge role. But I never got around to finishing the season.

On the plus side, Barbara is Batgirl and she's not wearing a costume that makes me want to throw up!

----------


## Frontier

> He's not in season 1. Treat yourself


And he barely does anything season 2  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> And even when he is, I don't recall him having a huge role. But I never got around to finishing the season.


The same is true for most of the season 2 newbies not named Blue Beetle, Impulse, and...maybe Lagoon Boy? I guess he got as much to do as Guardian and Bumblebee did. 

Although Tim did get a bit more focus by virtue of being the team's Robin.

----------


## Rac7d*

> And he barely does anything season 2 .
> 
> The same is true for most of the season 2 newbies not named Blue Beetle, Impulse, and...maybe Lagoon Boy? I guess he got as much to do as Guardian and Bumblebee did. 
> 
> Although Tim did get a bit more focus by virtue of being the team's Robin.


they treated him like a toekn black chracter, he inhumanity HOW DARE THEY

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## RedBird

ugs_kotatsu

----------


## L.H.

> If you haven't seen Young Justice, you haven't lived. 
> 
> Best version of the DCU since.....New Frontier I suppose, if not pre-Crisis. Certainly better than the movies or the comics themselves.


Totally agree. Can't wait for third season

----------


## oasis1313

Which seasons are Tim-Free?  I like cartoons with Dick, Jason, or Damian but I hate everything that reeks of Timmyt Wimmy (just in case I haven't been upfront about my feelings).

----------


## nightbird

> Which seasons are Tim-Free?  I like cartoons with Dick, Jason, or Damian but I hate everything that reeks of Timmyt Wimmy (just in case I haven't been upfront about my feelings).


First.
10char.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Which seasons are Tim-Free?  I like cartoons with Dick, Jason, or Damian but I hate everything that reeks of Timmyt Wimmy (just in case I haven't been upfront about my feelings).


Just out of curiousity why do you not like Tim?

----------


## L.H.

> Which seasons are Tim-Free?  I like cartoons with Dick, Jason, or Damian but I hate everything that reeks of Timmyt Wimmy (just in case I haven't been upfront about my feelings).


There are also many episodes without him in season two, I think about an half. But, aside one or two episodes, he really did nothing. There is much more Babs.

----------


## Aahz

> There are also many episodes without him in season two, I think about an half. But, aside one or two episodes, he really did nothing. There is much more Babs.


Tim is iirc only a minor character in season 2. It was in genral a problem with that season that they introduced lots of new characters, and only very few of them got some focus.

----------


## WonderNight

But tim and most other characters were supposed to be just supporting characters not main characters. The season 1 cast are the main characters.

----------


## oasis1313

> But tim and most other characters were supposed to be just supporting characters not main characters. The season 1 cast are the main characters.


Thank goodness for fast-forward!!!

----------


## Gray Lensman

> As I recall, the two of them also dated at some point during the time skip, but broke up before season 2 began. 
> 
> YJ Grayson started breaking hearts early.


But is still on good terms with her despite the breakup.  It's a genuine superpower.  Has Dick ever had a bad breakup with anyone who didn't become a villain shortly after?  Difficulty: Characters who are revealed to have been villains all along don't count.

----------


## oasis1313

> But is still on good terms with her despite the breakup.  It's a genuine superpower.  Has Dick ever had a bad breakup with anyone who didn't become a villain shortly after?  Difficulty: Characters who are revealed to have been villains all along don't count.


Babs and Starfire haven't become baddies, I think.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> Babs and Starfire haven't become baddies, I think.


As far as I know they are still on good terms too.

----------


## Aioros22

> So it's okay to kill everywhere except in Gotham City?  Cool beans!


Let`s say Bruce is more willing to accept Jason`s philosphy and Outlaw life outside Gotham because he trusts his instincts better with the compromise.

----------


## adrikito

After read this article:

https://www.newsarama.com/39010-a-se...son-sejic.html

I saw this image in twitter(with other characters here):

Dick Grayson Nightwing.jpg

https://twitter.com/stjepansejic/sta...son-sejic.html

----------


## Rac7d*

> After read this article:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/39010-a-se...son-sejic.html
> 
> I saw this image in twitter(with other characters here):
> 
> Dick Grayson Nightwing.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/stjepansejic/sta...son-sejic.html


is that not his metal outfit, i still love it

----------


## OBrianTallent

That is Dick's Metal outfit.  Since Sejic couldn't put new art up, he put up designs from Metal.   I hope they gave him Titans although I doubt they did.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I don’t think Dick will be on JL

----------


## oasis1313

> I don’t think Dick will be on JL


We'll NEVER get something like that.  DC enjoys kicking Wingnuts to the curb too much.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I have grown to dislike stories where you have Batman talk about Dick being his equal or leading the JLA because they are infinite and mortality

----------


## Godlike13

> I have grown to dislike stories where you have Batman talk about Dick being his equal or leading the JLA because they are infinite and mortality


Me too. His goal should not be to make the JL one day but to make his team equal to, or better even, then the JL. Even if that will ultimately never happen, that should be the mentality.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Me too. His goal should not be to make the JL one day but to make his team equal to, or better even, then the JL. Even if that will ultimately never happen, that should be the mentality.


thats a dumb goal, who wants too be on the JL anyway there a bunch of bullies and assholes
it so easy to see how they are always so close to becoming an evil dicktatoriship

----------


## Moonwix

In the batman franchise Dick will always be a sidekick, no amount  of fan service will change that. But In  his own franchise the titans he is the leading man. The success of that franchise in media would increase DC's respect for the character. The
 Respect batman gets is because he is a 5 billion dollar franchise. Dick needs to breakout in media And gain success as a titan character not batman's.  And only very successful movies can elevate a character until then, DC could careless which is unfortunate.

----------


## WonderNight

But does it have to be with the titans? Can dc not create anything new anymore. Does dick always have to be defined by his past.

----------


## nhienphan2808

He should just go to metropolis tbh. I love every one of his interaction with Clark in post crisis. They really shows his character and his style of leadership, a mix of both Batman and superman but so different from both of them. He freaking shines when he got out of the bat books. Titans is good, but true it can get old. That's how I view Dick tbh. He would b e always ironically tied to the past. To make it fresh, one way is reastablish his relationship with his other dad. 

But then again no one would be so kind as to let him do that. He didn't even get mentioned in SuperSons.

----------


## Moonwix

Yes it does.  It is not his past. It is Dick's cannon, his 2nd origin story, what defined him as nightwing. When he really became his own man and less of a sidekick. Saying he doesn't need it,  is like saying batman doesn't need the story of the death of his parents told.  Besides the titans franchise currently is raising in popularity and that alone benefits Dick.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Yes it does.  It is not his past. It is Dick's cannon, his 2nd origin story, what defined him as nightwing. When he really became his own man and less of a sidekick. Saying he doesn't need it,  is like saying batman doesn't need the story of the death of his parents told.  Besides the titans franchise currently is raising in popularity and that alone benefits Dick.


Not to mention it's in his character to be defined by past relationships.  Tim and even Bruce can be set fresh.  I mean in Bruce's case, his parents death gave birth to batman yeah, but he can survive reboots without friends involved. Pre crisis Bruce had tons more relationships , he doesn't need them to be himself in post or new 52. Dick was raised by titans and he owned them that.

----------


## Aioros22

Has his connection with the Kriptonian Nigthwing been mentioned since the reboot?

----------


## Rac7d*

> But does it have to be with the titans? Can dc not create anything new anymore. Does dick always have to be defined by his past.


name me a few heroes who are not

----------


## Pohzee

> Has his connection with the Kriptonian Nigthwing been mentioned since the reboot?


Yup. Grayson annual #2 that was set during Truth.

----------


## oasis1313

> But does it have to be with the titans? Can dc not create anything new anymore. Does dick always have to be defined by his past.


I think it'd be easy to create an off-beat team around Nightwing that would be fun.  There are plenty of characters around who aren't being used.  IMHO, the Nightwing and the Outsiders book failed because--once again--the creator became enamored with his original characters and focused on them instead of The Leading Man Nightwing (which the current Titans is also doing).

----------


## bearman

Ive always thought that Dick would be great in Metropolis. There’s always enough weirdness going around; kinda like “Grayson “, but in one place. He has a great danamic with Clark...and it would be fun to see him pal around with Jimmy Olsen, like in the old Worlds Finest stories.

----------


## yohyoi

Abnett sucks. Create one good Wally/Dick issue then next issue make them job because they are nice guys.

----------


## Godlike13

Oh Wally jobbed, what Dick got was far worse. He jobbed while he was verbally made a mockery of on a conceptual level. It’s especially messed up given that it’s Abnett who been choosing to poorly portray Nightwing as Batman’s bitch, and then he wants to use that against the character. Even acknowledging how it goes against the very idea behind Dick becoming Nightwing. Honestly it’s rather gross what he did, and just sad that DC let him do it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Wally jobbed, what Dick got was far worse. He jobbed while he was verbally made a mockery of on a conceptual level. It’s especially messed up given that it’s Abnett who been choosing to poorly portray Nightwing as Batman’s bitch, and then he wants to use that against the character. Honestly it’s rather gross what he did, and just sad that DC let him do it.


What's even more sad is the way DC treats the character in general. They've given him many opportunities to be in books that really grow the character and push him in new directions then they backpedal and put him right back into the same hole he'd just crawled out of. That is what leads to characterizations like this and why he'll never be treated as an equal to Batman. So long as DC allows writers to do things like this he'll forever remain in Batman's shadow. The character really needs his own place in the DCU that Batman isn't involved with and can't poke his nose into directly. Something like Spyral was for him in _Grayson_.

----------


## Godlike13

This isn’t on Batman, this has nothing to do with Batman even, or Bludhaven for that matter, this is Abnett pulling down his pants and taking a crap on the character seemingly simply because he can. Titans is suppose to be one of the characters places away from Batman, but for some damn reason he’s being punished for being in it and I don’t understand why. I don’t know if it’s because he’s not in the same shape as the others and so Abnett wants to take him down a peg, but honestly that’s what it seems like and it’s f’ed up.

----------


## Rakiduam

> This isn’t on Batman, this has nothing to do with Batman even, or Bludhaven for that matter, this is Abnett pulling down his pants and taking a crap on the character seemingly simply because he can. Titans is suppose to be one of the characters places, but for some damn reason he’s being punished for being in it. I don’t understand why. I don’t know if it’s because he’s not in the same shape as the others and so Abnett wants to take him down a peg, but honestly that’s what it seems like and it’s f’ed up.


Abnett showed his opinion about Dick early on Titan Hunt when Dick go running in panic while Donna and Garth fight. He has nothing for the character to do and Dick's place within the group is hindering what Abnett's wants to do with the others, he is olny around because the edditorial wanted the whole set. Abnett see him as weak and wants everybody to see him like that.

He simply doesn't like him.

The best for everyone would be that he doesn't have control over the character ever again.

----------


## Pohzee

Would anyone mind recapping for those of us who had the good sense not to support Abnett's run on Titans?

----------


## Godlike13

Dick and Wally confronts Roy, and then Roy beats them both up while verbally chastising and berating Dick on a conceptual level. Telling him how much of bitch he’s been despite why he became Nightwing in the first place. Just to make it crystal clear to readers in case they didn’t already pick that up.

----------


## Pohzee

It's a shame you can't double-drop a book you've already dropped.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This isn’t on Batman, this has nothing to do with Batman even, or Bludhaven for that matter, this is Abnett pulling down his pants and taking a crap on the character seemingly simply because he can. Titans is suppose to be one of the characters places away from Batman, but for some damn reason he’s being punished for being in it and I don’t understand why. I don’t know if it’s because he’s not in the same shape as the others and so Abnett wants to take him down a peg, but honestly that’s what it seems like and it’s f’ed up.


Oh, I agree its f'ed up but I feel that Abnett's treatment of Nightwing is just another symptom of a larger issue that DC has with the character to be honest because he always seems to get this treatment. I also don't feel that Titans is really a place that is away from Batman because he obviously can stick his nose into their business any damned time he wants. Hence the JL basically coming along and shutting them down.

----------


## The World

So we're finally done with the whole the Titans are where Dick belongs thing then? That team was so old news and passe meant for a younger group.  Never made sense to me why people we're desperate for him to link back up with these guys in the first place.

----------


## Ascended

I think people want the OG Titans together because, once upon a time a generation ago, they were the best thing on the rack. Its been a very long time since that was the case, but people still want that lightning to be caught in a bottle again.

Myself, I want the OG Titans to still be friends. I want to see Dick and Wally get together for a beer once in a while. I want to see them all go out for dinner now and then. I dont want or need to see them remain a team. Its not working, it hasn't worked when they've done it in the past, and I am beyond ready to see these guys move on with their lives. 

And I am beyond ready to see Nightwing move beyond the Bat too (as much as he's ever going to). But that's another issue.

----------


## Godlike13

> Oh, I agree its f'ed up but I feel that Abnett's treatment of Nightwing is just another symptom of a larger issue that DC has with the character to be honest because he always seems to get this treatment. I also don't feel that Titans is really a place that is away from Batman because he obviously can stick his nose into their business any damned time he wants. Hence the JL basically coming along and shutting them down.


He shouldn’t be able to do that though, that only happen because Abnett made it happen.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I take it I'm not going to enjoy this week's Titans then. I never really do but I'm gathering from Godlikes subtle hints that this issue is even _more_ Garbage than usual. Awesome. I haven't really been enjoying Nightwing since Humphries took over either. It's not bad but it's just very meh. It seems as though he's been fighting the judge for about a year now.  :Frown:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He shouldn’t be able to do that though, that only happen because Abnett made it happen.


AND because editorial allowed it to happen.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think people want the OG Titans together because, once upon a time a generation ago, they were the best thing on the rack. Its been a very long time since that was the case, but people still want that lightning to be caught in a bottle again.
> 
> Myself, I want the OG Titans to still be friends. I want to see Dick and Wally get together for a beer once in a while. I want to see them all go out for dinner now and then. I dont want or need to see them remain a team. Its not working, it hasn't worked when they've done it in the past, and I am beyond ready to see these guys move on with their lives. 
> 
> And I am beyond ready to see Nightwing move beyond the Bat too (as much as he's ever going to). But that's another issue.


I totally agree with you there Ascended.

----------


## WonderNight

dick and wally should create a new team and stop carrying the dead weight of of these D-listers all so old fans can live in the past. watching nightwing and flash with the titans in 2018 is like two college students still hanging at highschool it's sad.

I also agree with jasontodd428, It's because DC still threat nightwing as just a sidekick because to much of dick and his world still revolves around and not the dcu. So as long as nightwing is still thought of as a sidekick or the young adult son who lives off of daddy by dc and fans he will continue to got this kinda showings. that's one of the main reasons I don't like him living in gotham and/or dating batgirl even though I like dickbabs as friends. its just too much bat for nightwing to go be his own.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick and Wally confronts Roy, and then Roy beats them both up while verbally chastising and berating Dick on a conceptual level. Telling him how much of bitch hes been despite why he became Nightwing in the first place. Just to make it crystal clear to readers in case they didnt already pick that up.


since when can speedy take on Dick

----------


## Aioros22

By exploiting the sunshine off da Dick. 

Which is how he beats him in the issue. By being the dirtiest figther of the two.

----------


## Alycat

Titans truly hit the height of garbage today. Abnett is truly terrible with this book.

----------


## Rac7d*

if you have twitter please, sintead of jsut posting on here and grumbling go on his twitter ans ask him why in the most polite way you can
just ask him why,    i dare him to ignore it all, I alredy did

https://twitter.com/VincentAbnett

----------


## Rakiduam

> if you have twitter please, sintead of jsut posting on here and grumbling go on his twitter ans ask him why in the most polite way you can
> just ask him why,    i dare him to ignore it all, I alredy did
> 
> https://twitter.com/VincentAbnett


I think why is irrelevant, but I would like to know how much longer.

----------


## nightbird

> So we're finally done with the whole the Titans are where Dick belongs thing then? That team was so old news and passe meant for a younger group.  Never made sense to me why people we're desperate for him to link back up with these guys in the first place.


He had no friends after New-52 and was pretty much isolated from DCU. I wanted him to be friends with his old pals and have a history with them. I didn’t want crappy writing though.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He had no friends after New-52 and was pretty much isolated from DCU. I wanted him to be friends with his old pals and have a history with them. I didn’t want crappy writing though.


I'd have been more than satisfied if they had simply said his time with the (New Teen) Titans was now back in continuity. A few flashbacks and encounters with his 'old Titan friends' would have been enough for me. I don't think an actual Titans book was completely necessary especially since all of them have suffered the same problems.

----------


## jbmasta

The problem with New 52 ad Nightwing/Dick Grayson was that he didn't really interact with anyone outside of the Batfamily, and that was mainly events that broke up Nightwing storylines (Death of the Family burned off the Halley's Circus thread) and with Forever Evil he couldn't use the Dick Grayson identity around anyone outside of Batman, Lex Luthor and Spyral. It took until the second annual for him to finally interact with Superman (during Superman's Truth storyline), but at least he got to remember, unlike Harley, Azrael, Constantine and Simon Baz (one of the Green Lanterns of Earth) whose interactions, specifically Dick's involvement, they were made to forget.

----------


## Godlike13

Well I wish they could make me forget this last year of Dick interacting with his "friends"...

----------


## jbmasta

> Well I wish they could make me forget this last year of Dick interacting with his "friends"...


I'm rewatching Young Justice on Netflix. You could use a dose of that.

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm rewatching Young Justice on Netflix. You could use a dose of that.


Yeah its great and only has one or two fab5 or new teen  titan on the roster. Dick needs friends but they don't all have to be OLD friends or from the same generation, that's a limit on his growth.

----------


## Moonwix

The concept of the team titans is a good idea. The popularity proofs that, there is nothing wrong with nightwing been on that team. It's just that the current writer and DC decided it was a great idea to write this book as a pre teen book, getting schooled by the JL, hanging around doing nothing adult acting like teenagers. Every time I buy each issue I just can't understand why they had to go with this direction. The problem can be sorted if a good write moves the team forward with storytelling not fan service.

----------


## jbmasta

> The concept of the team titans is a good idea. The popularity proofs that, there is nothing wrong with nightwing been on that team. It's just that the current writer and DC decided it was a great idea to write this book as a pre teen book, getting schooled by the JL, hanging around doing nothing adult acting like teenagers. Every time I buy each issue I just can't understand why they had to go with this direction. The problem can be sorted if a good write moves the team forward with storytelling not fan service.


The latest title with the characters definitely comes across as more sitcom than it does anything good. Something like Young Justice would be better, where there's an emphasis covert ops. It'd tap into that fanbase, which is big enough that it got uncancelled and a third season.

----------


## Moonwix

> The latest title with the characters definitely comes across as more sitcom than it does anything good. Something like Young Justice would be better, where there's an emphasis covert ops. It'd tap into that fanbase, which is big enough that it got uncancelled and a third season.


It was the direction i expected DC to take this team at the start of rebirth, it was so obvious with the run from Grayson, Dick been a spy, forms a team the titans and they work as a covert tactical  team just like young justice.  But I guess it wasn't obvious to DC,  I really dislike when they go the way of fan servicing, it can only lead to the rubbish we read now in this series.

----------


## jbmasta

> It was the direction i expected DC to take this team at the start of rebirth, it was so obvious with the run from Grayson, Dick been a spy, forms a team the titans and they work as a covert tactical  team just like young justice.  But I guess it wasn't obvious to DC,  I really dislike when they go the way of fan servicing, it can only lead to the rubbish we read now in this series.


Dick could even be like Batman was in Young Justice, giving the team their missions. It'd make it more plausible for him to be in Nightwing and Titans, and allow Titans to showcase the other members who aren't in other books on a regular basis.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I stopped reading Titans after a punch was all it took to defeat Evil Troy and Justice League comes in as is Booster Gold with Superman, Flashpoint, Barbatos, and GL Corps. Abnett and editorial will always have a pantheon heirchy and Judge the JL different from Titans.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It was the direction i expected DC to take this team at the start of rebirth, it was so obvious with the run from Grayson, Dick been a spy, forms a team the titans and they work as a covert tactical  team just like young justice.  But I guess it wasn't obvious to DC,  I really dislike when they go the way of fan servicing, it can only lead to the rubbish we read now in this series.


I was hoping it would go that route at well and was disappointed when it didn't. Sadly, _Titans_ has always been more about relying on the nostalgia of the past rather than just simply using that nostalgia to its advantage to push the team and the stories told with them forward. I don't think any writer that's worked with this book has ever really understood the difference between the two. I've read plenty of other books where I've felt the writers have done a much more nuanced job of scratching the nostalgia itch in fans than I ever have seen in a _Titans_ book.

----------


## Rac7d*

I am pretty positive family
but that titans issue really got me down

Why Dick has to be the whorf to show how tough and skilled someone else is tired, since batman is jsut untouchable so he becomes the next thing

----------


## byrd156

> Yeah its great and only has one or two fab5 or new teen  titan on the roster. Dick needs friends but they don't all have to be OLD friends or from the same generation, that's a limit on his growth.


How does having old friends limit growth? That makes no sense.

----------


## Godlike13

When he can only have old friends.

 And when he gets purposely shit on so his old friends can look better his old friends just become flat out toxic to him.

----------


## WonderNight

It's not dick having old friends its dick only being able to have and do what he's already done. Dick can't be on new team with other dcu characters because for some reason he has to be with only former titans or his generation. There's a ton of dcu characters I believe dick would work great with but he can't because they weren't titans form almost 3 decades ago. Right now it hard for dick to even guests star because all the characters outsiders the Batman that have books dick has almost no relationships with any of them. There are maybe 4 or 5 characters in dicks generation that are not D-listers are they are all his old friends, but there are plenty of b and c-listers dick could be on teams and friends with but because they weren't already titans form 3 decades ago NOPE.

----------


## WonderNight

> When he can only have old friends. And when he gets purposely shit on so they can look better they become just flat out toxic.


Right there's nothing wrong with dick having old friends but he should not be limited by them. one of the thing I love about YJ nightwing was see him interesting, having relationships and fighting along side characters I almost never get to see him with in the comics.

wouldn't it be cool if after no justice dick and wally could be on a cool new team with dc other top tier b-listers like Green arrow, Jessica Cruz, Black Lightning. and zatanna? But with we all know it going to be NTT again and again until they hit lightning in a bottle.

----------


## Drako

Batman: Prelude to the Wedding — Nightwing Vs. Hush #1

Written by Tim Seeley • Art by Travis Moore • Cover by Rafael Albuquerque

Dick Grayson has a lot of responsibility. Being the original partner to Batman, he’s the natural choice to be Bruce Wayne’s best man. So if anyone has to get to the wedding, it’s going to be him. Too bad Hush has other plans—and maybe Bruce Wayne does, too! On sale June 6.

https://nerdist.com/batman-48-the-be...usive-preview/

----------


## Rakiduam

> Batman: Prelude to the Wedding — Nightwing Vs. Hush #1
> 
> Written by Tim Seeley • Art by Travis Moore • Cover by Rafael Albuquerque
> 
> Dick Grayson has a lot of responsibility. Being the original partner to Batman, he’s the natural choice to be Bruce Wayne’s best man. So if anyone has to get to the wedding, it’s going to be him. Too bad Hush has other plans—and maybe Bruce Wayne does, too! On sale June 6.
> 
> https://nerdist.com/batman-48-the-be...usive-preview/


That sounds rather sad.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Batman: Prelude to the Wedding — Nightwing Vs. Hush #1
> 
> Written by Tim Seeley • Art by Travis Moore • Cover by Rafael Albuquerque
> 
> Dick Grayson has a lot of responsibility. Being the original partner to Batman, he’s the natural choice to be Bruce Wayne’s best man. So if anyone has to get to the wedding, it’s going to be him. Too bad Hush has other plans—and maybe Bruce Wayne does, too! On sale June 6.
> 
> https://nerdist.com/batman-48-the-be...usive-preview/


I'm looking forward to this. Going on my pull list.

----------


## Alycat

Huh, that actually looks interesting. I'll give it a go.

----------


## Badou

Hush seems like an odd choice, but it is nice to see Seeley writing him again at least.

----------


## Godlike13

Mwhahaha, Seeley can never escape.

----------


## Pohzee

King's really doing Dick like that, huh?

----------


## Badou

Come on, we all know Clark will be the best man. King has been setting that up.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> How does having old friends limit growth? That makes no sense.


His having old friends doesn't limit his character growth but the types of stories he always seems to get when he is with his old friends certainly does and it also limits the growth of the team as well.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I'm disappointed that Dick won't be best man but I'm not at all surprised. Still, really looking forward to all these Batfam books written by Seeley. The one with Jason sounds a bit random but Seeley can probably make it work.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm disappointed that Dick won't be best man but I'm not at all surprised. Still, really looking forward to all these Batfam books written by Seeley. The one with Jason sounds a bit random but Seeley can probably make it work.


It never occurred to me that Dick might even be considered--this IS Diseased Comics we're talkin' here,  Maybe Alfred is Father of the Groom?

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://d.***********/d07/1803/12/8ed1d5af01ea.jpg[/IMG]
Dick and Dami

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgD1LcqlGbG/

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm disappointed that Dick won't be best man but I'm not at all surprised. Still, really looking forward to all these Batfam books written by Seeley. The one with Jason sounds a bit random but Seeley can probably make it work.


whats was the point of closing the age difference between them

----------


## nightbird

We will see Tony Zucco in Titans.
https://heroichollywood.com/tony-zuc...ans-tv-series/

----------


## adrikito

Hogwarts Batfamily:

Attachment 63442

Source(there are more images):

https://lizziebrayson.tumblr.com/pos...e-dick-grayson

----------


## Frontier

Tony Zucco will appear in the _Titans_ show.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tony Zucco will appear in the _Titans_ show.


no trailer until july

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> whats was the point of closing the age difference between them


It was _only_ to age Bruce down. I guess superpowered aliens and whatever the hell Metal is, is totally fine but a man kicking ass in his mid-to late forties is completely unbelievable  :Stick Out Tongue:  In the next Reboot Dick is going to be older than Bruce but somehow still retain his inadequacy issues.

----------


## oasis1313

> It was _only_ to age Bruce down. I guess superpowered aliens and whatever the hell Metal is, is totally fine but a man kicking ass in his mid-to late forties is completely unbelievable  In the next Reboot Dick is going to be older than Bruce but somehow still retain his inadequacy issues.


That's a lot of the problem.  It was a mistake to ever let Dick Grayson grow up; I like him as a young leading male character, but it created too many problems--mostly, aging the entire DC Universe.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> That's a lot of the problem.  It was a mistake to ever let Dick Grayson grow up; I like him as a young leading male character, but it created too many problems--mostly, aging the entire DC Universe.


I see no problem with letting the universe age a little. They could have justified Bruce's continuing good health by saying he used a Lazurus pit. Maybe that's out of character but Ras Al Ghul threw him in, for whatever reason. Maybe Hal Jordans gets a little recharge physically when he uses the lantern to charge his ring. Arthur Curry ages slowly because of his Atlantean DNA. Barry Allen's speed healing affects the signs of aging. I think, in canon, that Diana and Clark don't age, or at least not as fast as humans. DC just went about it half arsed. The new 52 should have been planned better.

----------


## CuteClops

I like Dick, Wally, Roy, Raven and Joe Wilson as young characters. Something like 18 to 21 years old.

Bruce, in his 35s or 40s.
Dick, in his 19s or 21s.
Jason, in his 18s or 19s.
Tim, in his 16s or 17s.
Damian, in his 13s or 14s.
Babs, 19 or 23 years old.

----------


## Ivy_b

> Hogwarts Batfamily:
> 
> Attachment 63442
> 
> Source(there are more images):
> 
> https://lizziebrayson.tumblr.com/pos...e-dick-grayson


If Dick takes Cedric's place, does that mean he'll die as well?  :Frown:  Otherwise the rest of the comics are really cute.

----------


## Ivy_b

> no trailer until july


Boo, I'm really curious to see a trailer for this. I don't want to get my hopes too high, but I want this to be halfway decent and for Dick to be characterized well and not just be a Batlite mini me. Fingers crossed it's decent and I'll watch it.

----------


## TheCape

> That's a lot of the problem.  It was a mistake to ever let Dick Grayson grow up; I like him as a young leading male character, but it created too many problems--mostly, aging the entire DC Universe.


I think that the problem is that DC is unable to commit to a consistent direction for most of their franchises.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> I think that the problem is that DC is unable to commit to a consistent direction for most of their franchises.


Well, you can't be one of the definitive writers for a character if you write him or her like everyone else - so that means a completely new direction, even more so when the writer has any clout.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## oasis1313

> I think that the problem is that DC is unable to commit to a consistent direction for most of their franchises.


This.  Which is the more likely cause--apathy or incompetence?

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's a lot of the problem.  It was a mistake to ever let Dick Grayson grow up; I like him as a young leading male character, but it created too many problems--mostly, aging the entire DC Universe.


that not a mistake, Dick grayson is so great becasue he was able to grow up learn change and experience, its just to be he cant continue without threatening the vitality of any of the older heroes

----------


## Aahz

> I like Dick, Wally, Roy, Raven and Joe Wilson as young characters. Something like 18 to 21 years old.
> 
> Bruce, in his 35s or 40s.
> Dick, in his 19s or 21s.
> Jason, in his 18s or 19s.
> Tim, in his 16s or 17s.
> Damian, in his 13s or 14s.
> Babs, 19 or 23 years old.


I still find it wired when they make Jason and Tim that close to Dicks age.

----------


## WonderNight

yeah after doomsday clock what would the bat kids ages be?

----------


## The World

They need to pivot him back to his original age frame of around his late 20s to early 30s. 10/12yrs old -18 yrs old time frame for his Robin years. Then you have the next 10-12 years to accommodate Jason time, Tim, and Damian.

No point intruding to hold onto young man Grayson with all the other Robins in play.

----------


## Aahz

> yeah after doomsday clock what would the bat kids ages be?


The only ones were they have to change the age drastically are Dick ad Barra who would end up being in their mid to late 20s (if the they go back to Barbara beeing a few years older than Dick she might even ed up around 30).
The others could probaly stay close to their current ages. Even if it will be hard to justify Tim beeing still a minor with Damian allready beeing 13 (but at least I would favor that they age Damian down again, I mean he is anyway still written and drwan like he was when he was supposed to be 10).

Just for reference pre flashpoint the ages were:

Kate: 32
Barbara: ~30
Dick, Helena and Bette: 26-27
Jason, Cass and Steph: ~19
Tim: 17
Damian: 10

And Tim should have probably been allready 18 at that point, since he was was originally only 8 years younger than Dick.

----------


## OversizedLoad

NIGHTWING #45 
Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Christopher Mooneyham, cover by Declan Shalvey, variant cover by John Romita Jr.

Nightwing investigates a string of murders that at first seem disconnected...but when signs start to point to the digital underworld, the mean streets of Blüdhaven begin to transform. So how does a hero like Dick Grayson- -- used to using his fists to solve problems -- stop a villain he can't get his hands on? Especially when Blüdhaven isn't the only thing compromised by a tech implant in this new "smart city" initiative...so is Nightwing's mind.
32 pages, $3.99, in stores on June 6. 

TITANS SPECIAL #1 
Written by Dan Abnett, art by Paul Pelletier and others, cover by Brandon Peterson.

It's the dawn of a new age of Titans! The events of Metal and No Justice have left the team in tatters, but a strange new threat has emerged to lead Nightwing to reassemble the Titans with a mix of old blood and new. A rash of metahuman power fluctuations are threatening people around the globe, and only the friends who grew up as superheroes can help those whose powers have grown out of control! It all starts here in this special issue kicking off a bold new direction!
48 pages, $4.99, in stores on June 13. 

nightwing45.jpg titansspecial1.jpg

----------


## Pohzee

Why is Abnett still on Titans? What is even the point of relaunching?

Percy's run doesn't sound all that inspired either, so the thing I get to look forward to the most is the issue where Dick gets snubbed by Bruce for Superman.

----------


## The World

Like how the artist rendered the gauntlets.  They actually look like gauntlets and not just an extension of the suit.

----------


## oasis1313

The comics industry seems like a very forgiving one if you can get yourself established as part of the Old Boy Network (or Old Person Network, to be politically correct).  You run a book into the ground, your bosses say its the characters' fault, and give you another gig.  Wouldn't it be nice to have a job where you don't have to take any responsibility for flubbing up?

----------


## Godlike13

> NIGHTWING #45 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Christopher Mooneyham, cover by Declan Shalvey, variant cover by John Romita Jr.
> 
> Nightwing investigates a string of murders that at first seem disconnected...but when signs start to point to the digital underworld, the mean streets of Blüdhaven begin to transform. So how does a hero like Dick Grayson- -- used to using his fists to solve problems -- stop a villain he can't get his hands on? Especially when Blüdhaven isn't the only thing compromised by a tech implant in this new "smart city" initiative...so is Nightwing's mind.
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on June 6. 
> 
> TITANS SPECIAL #1 
> Written by Dan Abnett, art by Paul Pelletier and others, cover by Brandon Peterson.
> 
> ...


Oh screw you DC. For the love of god get Abnett off the f’ing Titans if they keep wanting to center it around Nightwing. This is absurd. He’s done nothing but crap on Nightwing in his Titans. Why the hell are they letting him do that for characters like Roy if Nightwing is so damn important to their Titan plans.

And I don’t want to be negative, but I have a feeling Percy is just gonna feed Nightwing to his villain and use the arc as a launchpad.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I can't believe they kept Abnett on Titans. Fml. He is terrible. I have to say that Roy came off as an absolute f*ckwit in that last issue. Why would anyone listen to that trigger happy lunatic. Seriously, he was so quick to attack his team mates, they should kick him off the team. At least Wally was acting like a level headed, adult hero should. Wally is the only character that Abnett writes well imo.

The lack of cohesion between the comics is getting on my nerves. Dick will stand up to Bruce in Nightwing but capitulate to his will immediately in Titans. Bruce insists on locking Donna up for a crime she hasn't committed yet, humiliating the Titans in the process. In the meantime future Tim kills Future Damian and came back to kill Jon Kent, a 10 year old boy, and Bruce has putting nothing in place to stop him. There is no consistency whatsoever.

I'm not hugely interested in Perry's angle for Nightwing. It sounds like there is going to be a lot of techno babble in it. I get enough of that in Tec and Batgirl. I'll keep an open mind and try it though.

----------


## BloodOps

Abnett staying on Titans is so damn disappointing. 

The book has been a disaster, the recent issue was such a mess.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The only ones were they have to change the age drastically are Dick ad Barra who would end up being in their mid to late 20s (if the they go back to Barbara beeing a few years older than Dick she might even ed up around 30).
> The others could probaly stay close to their current ages. Even if it will be hard to justify Tim beeing still a minor with Damian allready beeing 13 (but at least I would favor that they age Damian down again, I mean he is anyway still written and drwan like he was when he was supposed to be 10).
> 
> Just for reference pre flashpoint the ages were:
> 
> Kate: 32
> Barbara: ~30
> Dick, Helena and Bette: 26-27
> Jason, Cass and Steph: ~19
> ...


Let jason be 21 so he can drink him being robin at 14 and new nightwing 18 can fit

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://c.***********/c36/1803/cc/e2c25bceea49.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bgg4mt2Fs6o/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I can't believe they kept Abnett on Titans. Fml. He is terrible. I have to say that Roy came off as an absolute f*ckwit in that last issue. Why would anyone listen to that trigger happy lunatic. Seriously, he was so quick to attack his team mates, they should kick him off the team. At least Wally was acting like a level headed, adult hero should. Wally is the only character that Abnett writes well imo.


Yup, which sucks because I like the Titans as X men angle in the solicit.

----------


## Alycat

Woof, Abnett is still on Titans? Can't wait for more garbage. Also Percy on Nightwing. Why does DC hate me so much?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yup, which sucks because I like the Titans as X men angle in the solicit.


them helping young metahumans take control of their lives and abilities, yeah that would be dope.
Which would make star labs and argus their adversary. That would be pretty cool, and a way for DC to introduce new heroes into the Universe
Mabey he wont stay the entire duration, mabey another writer will come in midway through

----------


## bearman

Well, the only way to A-list-erdom in the DC universe is thru the Justice League.
Dare we hope that the image of the Trinity standing behind Dick is a sign that the Titans will be a League-sanctioned team? A black- ops arm, perhaps?
And former spy Dick Grayson would be the point man... perhaps de facto Leaguer?

----------


## BloodOps

> Woof, Abnett is still on Titans? Can't wait for more garbage. Also Percy on Nightwing. Why does DC hate me so much?



Yikes, yeah it will be a tough few months for us.

I miss Seeley, I think he had some weak arcs with Nightwing so far but anything with Raptor and Dr. Hurt was great. 

This sucks.

----------


## Rakiduam

Didn't see this posted.

IT’S DICK GRAYSON VS. THE JUDGE IN NIGHTWING #41 

https://nerdist.com/nightwing-41-exc...iew-dc-comics/

----------


## oasis1313

> that not a mistake, Dick grayson is so great becasue he was able to grow up learn change and experience, its just to be he cant continue without threatening the vitality of any of the older heroes


Maybe they could drop Dick into a Lazarus Pit.

----------


## dietrich

Flying Grayson



by Stephen Bryne

----------


## nightbird

[IMG]https://a.***********/a25/1803/7a/278cbff60247.jpg[/IMG]
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgliAMdFCj6/

----------


## oasis1313

> [IMG]https://a.***********/a25/1803/7a/278cbff60247.jpg[/IMG]
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BgliAMdFCj6/


NICE artwork, the armor plating is good.  I confess to having harbored hopes for Clayface's redemption.

----------


## WonderNight

> Flying Grayson
> 
> 
> 
> by Stephen Bryne


I see you eyeing Jessica over there dick, I see you :Wink: .

----------


## oasis1313

> Flying Grayson
> 
> 
> 
> by Stephen Bryne


Ha ha--no Tim Dreck in this picture.

----------


## Ascended

> Really cool but very large art of Dick fighting Clayface
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BgliAMdFCj6/


Is that Injustice? Looks a little like Injustice to me. 

Hey, I've been trying to find some Nightwing designs (fan made or professional) in some tech-y, Batman Beyond type gear. Something a step up from what Bruce usually wears, but not at a Tony Stark level of armor. Maybe a glow effect somewhere. Anyone got any ideas?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Nightwing Dropped To 27k in Feb so hence the switch to monthly, I can see the only thing to spark his numbers is a Grayson/Batman like change that is hopefully permanent

----------


## Aahz

> Nightwing Dropped To 27k in Feb so hence the switch to monthly, I can see the only thing to spark his numbers is a Grayson/Batman like change that is hopefully permanent


Grayson wasn't doing that much better in the end either (and it had only half the issues the current run had).
Unless you really make him Batman, I don't think anythink will really lead to drastic increase of the numbers on the long run. A shake up like Grayson will spark some interest for while numbers will go down again.

----------


## Pohzee

> Nightwing Dropped To 27k in Feb so hence the switch to monthly, I can see the only thing to spark his numbers is a Grayson/Batman like change that is hopefully permanent


That could be in the cards. DC has been stalling around on the Nightwing title instead of commiting to a stable creative team since Seeley left. They could be waiting for something. Couple that with King's tweet about DickBats from a couple months ago and his tweet yesterday about having a Nightwing/Batman story in mind, and it may be possible that we see Dick take up the cowl for a couple months while BatCat are honeymooning. But Dick being Batman will never be permanent.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Grayson wasn't doing that much better in the end either (and it had only half the issues the current run had).
> Unless you really make him Batman, I don't think anythink will really lead to drastic increase of the numbers on the long run. A shake up like Grayson will spark some interest for while numbers will go down again.


I think having a great creative team that allows him to get out from under the bat ceiling and really be a DCU character could give him a boost. Even with Grayson they had to get around it by giving him his own corner. 

Personally I'd love to see it switch to a series of 2 issue "Nightwing and..." arcs.

----------


## Rac7d*

Was yesterday NIGHTWINGS birthday?

----------


## jbmasta

> I think having a great creative team that allows him to get out from under the bat ceiling and really be a DCU character could give him a boost. Even with Grayson they had to get around it by giving him his own corner. 
> 
> Personally I'd love to see it switch to a series of 2 issue "Nightwing and..." arcs.


Given he's had minimal interaction with Green Lantern characters (the Young Justice and Teen Titans teams haven't had Lantern representation), that could be something to explore. All I can think of was the vignette with Simon Baz in Grayson Annual #3. It expands Dick's role in the DC community without drawing on nostalgia and we get to see a new dynamic for him.

In fact, a Batfamily/Green Lantern crossover could be cool, with the Batfamily members having counterparts in the Earth Lanterns. Bruce and Hal, Dick and John Stewart, Jason and Guy Gardner, and Tim and Kyle Rayner. It's a crossover, so in theory higher sales and it's two properties that typically don't mingle, so we'd see different things unlike a typical Batfamily crossover.

----------


## jbmasta

> Is that Injustice? Looks a little like Injustice to me. 
> 
> Hey, I've been trying to find some Nightwing designs (fan made or professional) in some tech-y, Batman Beyond type gear. Something a step up from what Bruce usually wears, but not at a Tony Stark level of armor. Maybe a glow effect somewhere. Anyone got any ideas?


- New 52 introduced a more high-tech mask, so that could carry over into a BB costume. Contains some analytical programming, to help Nightwing scope out his/her environment and develop a strategy during a fight. Could also incorporate Hypnos tech, to make him harder to recognise (subtly alter perception of his face and voice for example)
- Escrima sticks that can be adapted to whoever Nightwing is fighting, with things like signal jammers, taser, antidote etc.
- Material more durable than spandex certainly, body armour like Batman has in the recent live action films for example. It's not a body suit but offers better protection than spandex.
- Otherwise just stick to the basics. One of Dick's key skills is his acrobatic agility, which aside from an artificial spidey sense can't really be improved with technology. Besides, technology has a bad habit of fighting back, it even happened in Batman Beyond one time. By all means add some tech in to make things handier, but don't rely on it.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nightwing Dropped To 27k in Feb so hence the switch to monthly, I can see the only thing to spark his numbers is a Grayson/Batman like change that is hopefully permanent


The lack of having a creative team is also probably a contributing factor. And for that matter a bigger name creative team could probably help spark numbers.

----------


## Pohzee

Well, the new Titans roster is a welcome shakeup from the Fab 5. Seems to be co-lead by Raven and Dick and will feature Beast Boy, Miss Martian, and Steel. Kinda get a YJ vibe from that roster. Not gonna lie though, I'm kinda jealous that he's not on Justice League Oddessy with Starfire, Cyborg, and Jessica Cruz. (Azreal really?)

----------


## Badou

I don't see how sticking Nightwing with a bunch of teens will solve any problems of the Titans series. It's the most uninspired direction they could have come up with, imo. Synder even called the team basically the minor league JL. It's so pathetic. Plus Abnett is still on it and the only character left on his Titans team is Dick who he writes worse than anyone.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't see how sticking Nightwing with a bunch of teens will solve any problems of the Titans series. It's the most uninspired direction they could have come up with, imo. Synder even called the team basically the minor league JL. It's so pathetic. Plus Abnett is still on it and the only character left on his Titans team is Dick who he writes worse than anyone.


I get the impression theyw ant this sync up with Young Justice where the old generation are now mentors.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick is in serious trouble. All these new teams and all they have for Dick is a farm team hes co-leading under Abnett. That says so much about how the see Nightwing. This is bad.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The lack of having a creative team is also probably a contributing factor. And for that matter a bigger name creative team could probably help spark numbers.


write his team changed after months of consitency
let go of Grayson, it wont work again without that same team

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick is in serious trouble. All these new teams and all they have for Dick is a farm team hes co-leading under Abnett. That says so much about how the see Nightwing. This is bad.


Abnett again?! WTF DC!

Anyone else please. I can't handle how Abnett uses Dick. The only bright side I see is we get Raven teaming up with Dick again. But yeah, Abnett can't write Dick to save his life...

----------


## Godlike13

It’s beyond that he simply can’t write him, he purposely portrays him poorly and mocks the character for it. The one character he is still is going to be writing and he does that. This is not good. They clearly have nothing for Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing Dropped To 27k in Feb so hence the switch to monthly, I can see the only thing to spark his numbers is a Grayson/Batman like change that is hopefully permanent


Not likely. Dick is still in the middle pack of DC titles. Red Hood and other low selling titles will get cancelled before Dick is in the red zone. Not to account the past stories aren't the best Dick stories.

Get a good writer, promote Dick a little and aim for stability... The numbers will go up again. Nightwing ran for 150+ issues... It's the tides of sales. It goes up and it goes down, but the boat still floats.

----------


## yohyoi

> It’s beyond that he simply can’t write him, he purposely portrays him poorly and mocks the character for it. The one character he is still is going to be writing and he does that. This is not good. They clearly have nothing for Nightwing.


Can't love his work. I just find myself buying Titans issues for collecting. Humphries arc was fun, so that got me through these past months.

----------


## Badou

> I get the impression theyw ant this sync up with Young Justice where the old generation are now mentors.


I think they just want to keep Dick in Titans because of the upcoming TV show. They don't know what else to do with the book so they are just going to have him babysit a bunch of teens.

----------


## Godlike13

Co-babysit. He can’t even lead DC’s leftover teens by himself. What a joke.

----------


## yohyoi

> I think they just want to keep Dick in Titans because of the upcoming TV show. They don't know what else to do with the book so they are just going to have him babysit a bunch of teens.


Dick isn't the big brother of the DCU for nothing. I just hope someone better than Abnett writes it. But alas we got him again like crime and Gotham/Bludhaven.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think they just want to keep Dick in Titans because of the upcoming TV show. They don't know what else to do with the book so they are just going to have him babysit a bunch of teens.


Well it must be some pitch for Abnett to be the one to continue writing him. But yeah it's sad that Dick can't even be on any of the Justice League teams. He proved that he can lead so why not huh?

----------


## yohyoi

Am I the only one who has realized Dick won't likely leave the Titans unless Batman dies? Because I'm sure this is the cold hard truth no matter how much I love Dick.

----------


## Badou

> Co-babysit. He cant even lead DCs leftover teens by himself. What a joke.


If the current Titans run is anything to go by it will just be Dick getting beaten up and having to be saved by those teens, haha. So stupid. 

He hasn't really even interacted with any of these characters before too in this continuity. So him looking at Raven as a co-leader makes no sense.

----------


## Pohzee

Y'all kept saying that you wanted the Titans to be more like the TV show Young Justice. I think they took away the wrong idea from that.

I'll give it a try though, since it seems more interesting than the snoozefest that was Titans: Rebirth. At least we now have actual Raven instead of Lilith doing her best impression. And 100% less stupid goggles and backwards hats.

----------


## yohyoi

> If the current Titans run is anything to go by it will just be Dick getting beaten up and having to be saved by those teens, haha. So stupid. 
> 
> He hasn't really even interacted with any of these characters before too in this continuity. So him looking at Raven as a co-leader makes no sense.


That's why we need a good writer. Young Justice season 2 was good and it's basically the same setting.

----------


## WingGrayson

Jeez, Abnett again.  And that's not even the worst of it.  God, I miss the GRAYSON days.

----------


## yohyoi

> And 100% less stupid goggles and backwards hats.


Roy does have the most punchable face next to Guy.

----------


## Pohzee

> Roy does have the most punchable face next to Guy.


Guy had the decency to ditch the bowlcut. Roy moved backwards in time with his ReBooth suit. Same with most of the Titans.

----------


## Badou

> That's why we need a good writer. Young Justice season 2 was good and it's basically the same setting.


Young Justice season 2 was just okay. Not nearly as good as season 1 and I still say that Nightiwng had a poor showing in season 2 as well.

But the writer is irrelevant sort of because the reason that it doesn't work in comics is because in that universe it has been established that the YJ team from the start is being trained by the JL. Batman is even working as the team director. The Titans in the comics have never been like that. They have always worked on their own even when they were teens. It is what made them unique. So to try and repurpose them as being some JL farm team similar to the Young Justice show has no foundation to base that on. The JL should step in and guide them if that is going to be the case, not some 20 something Nightwing who needs to find his own direction as a hero. 

From the start and I'll continue to say that the Titans franchise should focus on actual teen characters and adult characters should move on to other things.

----------


## yohyoi

> Young Justice season 2 was just okay. Not nearly as good as season 1 and I still say that Nightiwng had a poor showing in season 2 as well.
> 
> But the writer is irrelevant sort of because the reason that it doesn't work in comics is because in that universe it has been established that the YJ team from the start is being trained by the JL. Batman is even working as the team director. The Titans in the comics have never been like that. They have always worked on their own even when they were teens. It is what made them unique. So to try and repurpose them as being some JL farm team similar to the Young Justice show has no foundation to base that on. The JL should step in and guide them if that is going to be the case, not some 20 something Nightwing who needs to find his own direction as a hero. 
> 
> From the start and I'll continue to say that the Titans franchise should focus on actual teen characters and adult characters should move on to other things.


I don't really agree, but I see your point. In the end, we will both suffer Abnett's horrible writing.

----------


## Claude

OK, now, if you squint - this is good news for Dick. It's an actual position within the DCU, whereby a hero could have a question to which "call Dick Grayson" is the answer. He's the guy who takes point on young heroes, who mentors them, who liaises with the Justice League when it comes to individual cases, and who provides League-standard training. He's Kilowog. He's Salakk. He's Cerebro!

Problem is, useful part of a shared universe though that idea is, I have no idea how you'd actually tell a monthly series about it.

On the other hand, it absorbs a lot of the problems that the Titans has had previously - by bringing them "in house" and operating out of the Hall Of Justice you lose tedious "fighting for independence" stories, whilst giving a reason for them to have casual interactions with other DCU heroes. You have a reason for them to be together outside of "well, they were kids together". And you have a good excuse for a churn-rate of members - characters like Sidewise wont be able to hold down a solo indefinitely but are worth keeping. They don't naturally fit on a team, so what do you do? You give them an arc in the "Titans" books to be introduced to the wider world, and their presence - hopefully - leads to a kind of variety in the type of stories that the "Titans" book can tell.

I'd be cautiously optimistic if it was anyone other than Abnett - who started with two terrific issues and then the quality fell off a cliff - but as it is, I'm... hoping.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s a terrible position. He’s a high school coach. Every one else is gonna be doing cool shit on shiny new teams, and he’s co-leading the farm team made up of leftover Teen Titans. And bringing them in-house pretty much destroys the Titans and just solidifies them as the Jr. JL. This is terrible, they are doubling down on the Titans as a minor lead team with Dick as the head minor league player. 

And quite frankly with that cast I don’t see how it doesn’t get buried by the new far more spectacular looking teams that DC is clearly more excited about.

This is really bad news, because it’s indicative about how DC currently see’s Nightwing. As a minor league leftover who they don’t want to put on any of the new cooler teams, and so instead they put him on the "farm" team they can’t even be bothered to find a new creator for.

----------


## Badou

> OK, now, if you squint - this is good news for Dick. It's an actual position within the DCU, whereby a hero could have a question to which "call Dick Grayson" is the answer. He's the guy who takes point on young heroes, who mentors them, who liaises with the Justice League when it comes to individual cases, and who provides League-standard training. He's Kilowog. He's Salakk. He's Cerebro!
> 
> Problem is, useful part of a shared universe though that idea is, I have no idea how you'd actually tell a monthly series about it.
> 
> On the other hand, it absorbs a lot of the problems that the Titans has had previously - by bringing them "in house" and operating out of the Hall Of Justice you lose tedious "fighting for independence" stories, whilst giving a reason for them to have casual interactions with other DCU heroes. You have a reason for them to be together outside of "well, they were kids together". And you have a good excuse for a churn-rate of members - characters like Sidewise wont be able to hold down a solo indefinitely but are worth keeping. They don't naturally fit on a team, so what do you do? You give them an arc in the "Titans" books to be introduced to the wider world, and their presence - hopefully - leads to a kind of variety in the type of stories that the "Titans" book can tell.
> 
> I'd be cautiously optimistic if it was anyone other than Abnett - who started with two terrific issues and then the quality fell off a cliff - but as it is, I'm... hoping.


A big difference is that Kilowog is also a Green Lantern. He's on equal standing with GL characters. Dick isn't a Justice League member. So he has no pull or standing with the JL but is still under their thumb, like when they swooped in and made Dick disband his Titans team because they didn't think he was capable of dealing with a problem. The JL is still overseeing Dick like he is one of the teens he is stuck with. All it does is add even more problems to the Titans because instead of giving them an actual direction as heroes it pawns off the training of young heroes to a 20 something who still need to find his own direction as a hero. 

Although in a way I'm actually glad this happened as it will hopefully kill off the idea when it fails of people wanting Dick to be the "den mother" to a bunch of young heroes instead of having his own direction with a team he can have equal standing with.

----------


## WonderNight

R.I.P nightwing R.I.P :Frown:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Whelp, I'm going to be clinging to that "Nightwing vs. Hush" one shot for dear life, because it's likely going to be the best thing we're going to get for a great long while.

And will probably be the best thing we've had for the character in months. Between Humphries and the directionless guest spots we're getting on the solo, and ABNETT, Dick is back in the shitter again.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yep Dick is taking an L with Abnett I don’t feel compelled to pick this up one bit. Dick should be in his prime but is stuck on a AAA Farm System WTF?

----------


## WonderNight

man dont be a 20 something legacy character or you're screwed. dc let them age up but not grow up sad.

one of the reasons it hard for nightwing to move up is that he has to carry his whole generation with him, if it was just him and wally they could easily move on but they have to carry the dead weight of donna, garth, roy ect with them.

----------


## The Whovian

Everyone remember this?



Fast forward roughly 10 years and:

----------


## Claude

> A big difference is that Kilowog is also a Green Lantern. He's on equal standing with GL characters. Dick isn't a Justice League member. So he has no pull or standing with the JL but is still under their thumb, like when they swooped in and made Dick disband his Titans team because they didn't think he was capable of dealing with a problem. The JL is still overseeing Dick like he is one of the teens he is stuck with.


That's a plausible way that this could manifest, sure, and one I'm worried about with Abnett in charge.

But this is an _entirely_ different team to the one that has been in the "Titans" title up until now, with a different reason for being and role in the world - and I'm hoping Abnett, a competent writer on other titles, is treating it as a full reboot.

I mean, if Dick is in charge of running a Justice League programme out of the Justice League HQ the extent to which he "isn't a Justice Leaguer" is largely semantic.

----------


## Badou

> That's a plausible way that this could manifest, sure, and one I'm worried about with Abnett in charge.
> 
> But this is an _entirely_ different team to the one that has been in the "Titans" title up until now, with a different reason for being and role in the world - and I'm hoping Abnett, a competent writer on other titles, is treating it as a full reboot.
> 
> I mean, if Dick is in charge of running a Justice League programme out of the Justice League HQ the extent to which he "isn't a Justice Leaguer" is largely semantic.


This team is basically like the current Teen Titans just without Damian and Starfire was replaced by Dick to act as den mother.

----------


## RedBird

> Well, the new Titans roster is a welcome shakeup from the Fab 5. Seems to be co-lead by Raven and Dick and will feature Beast Boy, Miss Martian, and Steel. Kinda get a YJ vibe from that roster. Not gonna lie though, I'm kinda jealous that he's not on Justice League Oddessy with Starfire, Cyborg, and Jessica Cruz. (Azreal really?)


Hmm, interesting. At the very least it seems like theres an actual direction with this relaunch outside of the 'remember when we were friends??' Nostalgia trip of the current Titans book.

----------


## Ascended

> Thats a terrible position. Hes a high school coach. Every one else is gonna be doing cool shit on shiny new teams, and hes co-leading the farm team made up of leftover Teen Titans. And bringing them in-house pretty much destroys the Titans and just solidifies them as the Jr. JL. This is terrible, they are doubling down on the Titans as a minor lead team with Dick as the head minor league player. 
> 
> And quite frankly with that cast I dont see how it doesnt get buried by the new far more spectacular looking teams that DC is clearly more excited about.
> 
> This is really bad news, because its indicative about how DC currently sees Nightwing. As a minor league leftover who they dont want to put on any of the new cooler teams, and so instead they put him on the "farm" team they cant even be bothered to find a new creator for.


I really hate that I agree with your assessment. It does look bad, doesn't it?

I'd like to think that anything can happen. Some writers just need the right hook, and Abnett's a quality guy everywhere else. So you never know. But that feels like a shallow hope.

He should've been on Justice League Odyssey. Vic, Kori, Cruz.....friggin Darkseid. That would've been a hell of a place for Nightwing.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Whelp I think I'm finished with Nightwing for awhile. Everything they are doing with Dick Grayson is just feels so uninspired and lackluster that I just can't be bothered to care anymore which is sad. Think I just re-read his Batman era stuff and Grayson and ignore all this nonsense until something that actually does something to move the character forward again happens.

----------


## oasis1313

> I really hate that I agree with your assessment. It does look bad, doesn't it?
> 
> I'd like to think that anything can happen. Some writers just need the right hook, and Abnett's a quality guy everywhere else. So you never know. But that feels like a shallow hope.
> 
> He should've been on Justice League Odyssey. Vic, Kori, Cruz.....friggin Darkseid. That would've been a hell of a place for Nightwing.


It seems like Nightwing is to DC what Gambit is to Marvel.

----------


## Badou

Abnett has been writing Dick's character for over 2 years now. Nothing he has done in those 2 years with the character has been good. From Titans Hunt to the current series. Nothing. It is beyond the point of hoping things get better for him. The Titans franchise is just a dead end for the character. 

I would have rather Roy taken over the Titans and Dick can fuck off elsewhere. Roy is the one Abnett is most interested in anyway. 




> Whelp I think I'm finished with Nightwing for awhile. Everything they are doing with Dick Grayson is just feels so uninspired and lackluster that I just can't be bothered to care anymore which is sad. Think I just re-read his Batman era stuff and Grayson and ignore all this nonsense until something that actually does something to move the character forward again happens.


I don't blame you. Maybe after Doomsday Clock things will pick back up when they shake things up again, but he is in really bad shape now. I think I'm just about finished to be honest.




> It seems like Nightwing is to DC what Gambit is to Marvel.


But Dick is DC's 3rd most published character. Only behind Batman and Superman. He doesn't deserve this crap.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't blame you. Maybe after Doomsday Clock things will pick back up when they shake things up again, but he is in really bad shape now. I think I'm just about finished to be honest.


I'm not going to hold my breath on that. Frankly I'm bored with "traditional" Nightwing and all the nostalgic baggage that comes with it. I'll be back when they break him out of that mould.




> But Dick is DC's 3rd most published character. Only behind Batman and Superman. He doesn't deserve this crap.


You said it. The guy should be in the big leagues by now not still hanging out at the children's table.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, I hate how bitter I’m am about things. I don’t want to be so negative, but as a Nightwing fan this is sad and things look really bleak right now. They can’t find a stable creative team for his solo, and are seemingly just using it to introduce a new DCU villain for next couple months, and with all these shiny new teams they put him on the “farm" team with a lackluster roster they don’t even have any promotional art for, under the same creator who has been writing the Titans and done nothing but mock him despite him being the only Titan that he’s still going to be working with.

----------


## Alycat

I got to admit, I am curious about the reactions other places have and if they feel as negative as we do.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He should've been on Justice League Odyssey. Vic, Kori, Cruz.....friggin Darkseid. That would've been a hell of a place for Nightwing.


That really should have just been the new Titans book. Keep the same roster and creative team, and add Nightwing and a few other Titans like Donna, Wally, Raven and/or Gar (Vic is there!) and we'd have something to work with. Like...would that have been so bad? Was this shit they are doing with Abnett so important?

----------


## dan12456

> Whelp I think I'm finished with Nightwing for awhile. Everything they are doing with Dick Grayson is just feels so uninspired and lackluster that I just can't be bothered to care anymore which is sad. Think I just re-read his Batman era stuff and Grayson and ignore all this nonsense until something that actually does something to move the character forward again happens.


Me too  :Frown:  I'll try out Titans and the Percy Nightwing, but really feels like a regression. This is the first time since Dick took over the Batman mantle pre-flashpoint that I've been completely uninterested in Dick's direction (or lack of direction more realistically). Which really sucks as he's my favourite character.

----------


## dan12456

> OK, now, if you squint - this is good news for Dick. It's an actual position within the DCU, whereby a hero could have a question to which "call Dick Grayson" is the answer. He's the guy who takes point on young heroes, who mentors them, who liaises with the Justice League when it comes to individual cases, and who provides League-standard training. He's Kilowog. He's Salakk. He's Cerebro!
> 
> Problem is, useful part of a shared universe though that idea is, I have no idea how you'd actually tell a monthly series about it.
> 
> On the other hand, it absorbs a lot of the problems that the Titans has had previously - by bringing them "in house" and operating out of the Hall Of Justice you lose tedious "fighting for independence" stories, whilst giving a reason for them to have casual interactions with other DCU heroes. You have a reason for them to be together outside of "well, they were kids together". And you have a good excuse for a churn-rate of members - characters like Sidewise wont be able to hold down a solo indefinitely but are worth keeping. They don't naturally fit on a team, so what do you do? You give them an arc in the "Titans" books to be introduced to the wider world, and their presence - hopefully - leads to a kind of variety in the type of stories that the "Titans" book can tell.
> 
> I'd be cautiously optimistic if it was anyone other than Abnett - who started with two terrific issues and then the quality fell off a cliff - but as it is, I'm... hoping.


If they actually made Dick a League member then gave him the position of training the next generation I'd be all for that approach. But I'm sure that's not what this is. I'm sure Dick will be treated like "one of the next generation" like he always has been.

----------


## sungila

Oh no, so I'm looking at scans from the DC Rebirth promos recently and I get this brilliant epiphany from the Nightwing over the shoulder glance that it's fine that I've never been able to really dig Batman and his brooding billionaire man-cave one-man-militia thing.  It's fine.  Though the writing and calibre of craft in the iconic Batman books is stellar and though that OG Prince soundtrack was the last great Prince album and though it's impossible not to feel attached to that logo and that verified vendetta of the lone wolf thirsting for vengeance.  I am sure my lack of connection and early disillusionment with Batman is how I ended up becoming a Marvel guy and of course the X-Men by Claremont world of Mutants became my Gotham.  

But here's this Nightwing guy, this Grayson, this kid from the circus who Batman it seems never truly turned on to his by right and might autocracy.  Here's this sidekick who just isn't really buying it, but gets it and maybe he's like me, or so it felt and as soon as I began reading the books those preliminary feels were mostly fleshed out.  Grayson is awesome!

In that promo pic for Seeley's Nightwing Vol. 4, here's this great smile from a guy who spent years in the gloomy shadow of the gloomiest of superheroes and he looks so light on his feet, no cape on his shoulders, no heavy armor, no utility belt - and it sure didn't take much convincing when I began reading that THIS IS MY BATMAN, here's my DC hero!

And now, after a brief rundown through this thread I see that of course, of course Grayson is complicated by being just outside the shadow of Bat-money and just close enough to be banked on to bring in the periphery fans (I'm such a sucker, but oh well).  

Anyway, I'm happy to have discovered a personal interest in Grayson.  There is a ton of great reading in print and I'm new enough to Grayson that what I sense about the immediate from most of fans here is bad a current position for his character in the ongoing books, I have enjoyed Vol 4 so far and what's really great is that Seeley hasn't once directly commanded that I pay homage to Bruce Wayne as prime supreme.  Actually, that's not entirely true.  Maybe what I mean is that Batman being prime supreme is cool for him and for his fans, but it's not what Nightwing and his fans are all about.  There's a REAL authentic charm in the sidekick who doesn't stick close to the right hand side where he should - but carries that breech of emergent individuality and growth as an  awareness of indebted defiance.

I've got this HUGE Grayson (Agent of Spyral) omnibus to read.  I've been reading around it from ahead and behind but I'm super excited about this particular series.  

How do you fans who know rate 'Grayson'?  What are your feelings/thoughts about Seeley's writing?  

Thanks

----------


## Godlike13

Grayson is one of the characters all time best runs, and Seeley when he’s into something he’s great. Raptor is probably the best pure Nightwing villain. While his stuff with Bludhaven had its ups and downs his stuff with Raptor was top notch. The character, his motivations, the way he challenged Dick’s character on a emotional and metaphysical level, and the character moments Dick ultimately received from facing him. To me he should be the measuring stick all of Dick’s villains are held to.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Grayson is one of the characters all time best runs, and Seeley when he’s into something he’s great. Raptor is probably the best pure Nightwing villain. While his stuff with Bludhaven had its ups and down his stuff with Raptor was top notch.


He also treid to find a compromise between those who wnated Dick back in Bludhave and a return of Grayson. Maybe someoen shoudl go that direction again ince Grayson revitalised Dick as a character.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'd rate "Grayson" very highly. Easily the best thing to happen the character since he briefly became Batman II in Morrison's Batman run (and before that, it was NTT). It's a total shame it as cut short far too early in order to cater to nostalgia for the Dixon days of Nightwing in Bludhaven (_and look where that's got us_). 

I love Seeley in general, as my avatar probably indicates. I love his indy work like Hack/Slash, Revival and his current mini-series for Vertigo Imaginary Fiends (which I dearly hope becomes an ongoing), and the criminally cut short Effigy and Sundowners. Even his stuff on the lower end of the spectrum, like parts of Nightwing and Green Lanterns, it's pretty good at worst. His Nightwing run, even if he clearly didn't have as much interest in the material he was given to work with, was still better than average. But it wasn't just his writing that made Grayson work, it was also Tom King. They were great together. I'd love to see them do another book together.

Maybe if we get the Dick!Bats in some capacity that Tom King teased, we can get the two of them to write it?




> Grayson is one of the characters all time best runs, and Seeley when hes into something hes great. Raptor is probably the best pure Nightwing villain. While his stuff with Bludhaven had its ups and downs his stuff with Raptor was top notch. The character, his motivations, the way he challenged Dicks character and the character moments Dick received from facing him. To me thats should the measuring stick all Nightwing villains are held to.


Raptor alone makes Seeley the best solo Nightwing writer. That isn't a very high bar, but there you go. I also thought his Blockbuster was better than the previous version. Again, not difficult to do, but if we have to have Desmond stinking up the place, I'd take Seeley's over Dixon's. 
Using Dr. Hurt, Professor Pyg and making Deathwing a Dollotron was also great.

----------


## Alycat

Grayson is excellent and even though it falters at the end, the run is highly worth reading.I share a lot of Seeley's opinions on Dick and you can tell he lacked interest in backtracking to Bludhaven again.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I really wish DC had met Seeley and some of the fans halfway and put Dick back in the Nightwing identity, but not brought Bludhaven back.
Nightwing doing Grayson-style plots would have been a far superior book, which we only got small glimpses of in the actual Rebirth run.

----------


## Rac7d*

Would Bronze Tiger make a good nemsis for Nightwing

----------


## Assam

> Would Bronze Tiger make a good nemsis for Nightwing


Ben shouldn't be used as a villain at all.

----------


## Badou

> Would Bronze Tiger make a good nemsis for Nightwing


"Why use him for Nightiwng when we can use him for Batman" is what it boils down too as well. Remember Bronze Tiger was sort of being used at the end of the Grayson series when there was supposed to be a Spy Wars arc, but then they ditched it to get ready for Rebirth and King started using him for his Batman series early on instead.

----------


## Frontier

> Would Bronze Tiger make a good nemsis for Nightwing


I wouldn't mind Dick interfering with one of Ben's missions and the two face-off...

----------


## Aahz

> Ben shouldn't be used as a villain at all.


I really wish they would finally sort out the whole "continuity snarl" they created by mixing characters from Richard Dragon, Deadman and Batman together without paying attention to the canon of the first two franchises.

----------


## Rac7d*

> "Why use him for Nightiwng when we can use him for Batman" is what it boils down too as well. Remember Bronze Tiger was sort of being used at the end of the Grayson series when there was supposed to be a Spy Wars arc, but then they ditched it to get ready for Rebirth and King started using him for his Batman series early on instead.


So just like Deathstroke ehh




> Ben shouldn't be used as a villain at all.


who is allowed to be a villain thease days?
Is he busy being an anti hero somewhere else

----------


## Assam

> who is allowed to be a villain thease days?


Villains. 




> Is he busy being an anti hero somewhere else


Not presently but he is one of my top hopes to be on the new Outsiders team. Just because a character is in limbo shouldn't mean anything can be done with them, regardless of how little sense it makes.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> "Why use him for Nightiwng when we can use him for Batman" is what it boils down too as well. Remember Bronze Tiger was sort of being used at the end of the Grayson series when there was supposed to be a Spy Wars arc, but then they ditched it to get ready for Rebirth and King started using him for his Batman series early on instead.


Speaking of that collection of characters for the Spy Wars arc, it's too bad we are not likely to ever find out anything about Gwisin. She seemed pretty neat at a glance. 
Throwing the likes of Tao, Griftter and Frankenstein in there was neat as well. it's a shame we didn't get to see how that would have played out the way it was meant to. 




> So just like Deathstroke ehh


DC's insistence on making Slade a Batman villain just continues to grind my gears to no end.

----------


## Restingvoice

Dick is my favorite character but I haven't been satisfied with the stories I've read.

Managing Haly's Circus is a good idea but he doesn't actually interact with the members except Raya and Jimmy the clown. 
I was interested in The Prankster, though not Chicago or Zucco, but then it got cut off so no matter.
Grayson so far had the best setting but it's not what the character himself want so it's always going to be temporary.
The move to Bludhaven was weird because it's what my other self did so I'm gonna do it too, I guess.
Dick leading a team of reformed villains is a good idea except that I'm not interested in the cast. I know it's supposed to be rag tag bunch of misfits, but it's a bit too ragtag for my taste. Not enough cool people in it.

Titans started out interesting because it's about Wally but reading the solicitations and previews I have no idea where the book was going. I thought it was going to be one of the most important book because it stars Wally, the main character of DC Rebirth, but then it... has... nothing to do with Rebirth plot as far as I can tell.  
Titans is a weird book because as far as I can tell the team exists because they're childhood friends, but what is the team's purpose as superheroes? Often I ask why does this team exist because they should be good enough to cover global threats but Justice League already has that down and Teen Titans covers the whole growing up rebellion thing.  
Then of course the idea that Justice League disbanding Titans when they have been brainwashed more often is so hypocritical and insulting that I drop Titans before actually picking it up

So I'm half and half on this new Titans. Dick has been leading Batfam, Robins and Titans so it's natural to pick him as the best mentor of younger generation, but there's that weird Justice League being in charge of Titans feeling that I don't know where it came from. They didn't even meddle with Teen Titans that much. You know, the even younger team that need guidance? At this point why not just meld Titans and Teen Titans together?

----------


## oasis1313

> Speaking of that collection of characters for the Spy Wars arc, it's too bad we are not likely to ever find out anything about Gwisin. She seemed pretty neat at a glance. 
> Throwing the likes of Tao, Griftter and Frankenstein in there was neat as well. it's a shame we didn't get to see how that would have played out the way it was meant to. 
> 
> 
> 
> DC's insistence on making Slade a Batman villain just continues to grind my gears to no end.


I would love a team with Tao, Grifter, and Frankenstein.

----------


## Restingvoice

The reason I first like Nightwing was in Hush.

There he has the best hair, looks, and costume, but the scene that defines Nightwing for me is how attentive and caring he is towards Batman. He is not exactly a guy most people are comfortable to be around, much less that close, so it was very impressive. I've seen Bruce and Dick interact before, of course, but their relationship is more defined to me as happy fun kid hero time, not a serious heart to heart moment. Since then Batman has been defined as a brooding loner, so it stuck out to me that someone can be that comfortable with him.

The same feeling I get was when I read The Court of Owls, then extend to the Robins in various family meetings, sometimes to his enemies. It also sticks out that he's more emotionally mature than Batman, when he used to be the dad. 

That's what defines Nightwing to me and why I like him so much. He's nice, he cares and he can get through difficult people. 

Now since what defines him to me is when he interacts... no... counsels other people, I don't know what Nightwing as a solo hero means or supposed to be. Batman is the dark knight detective solving crimes by the criminally insane. I don't know what Nightwing is, and his series I've read haven't really helped. They meander.

----------


## WonderNight

Grayson had it Right! Nightwing should be dc's top global spy just as nightwing not agents 37. Him doing and being the same things as Batman is how he ends up looking like Batman lite, and dc will not invest in that. I mean a lot of people know nightwing from YJ and there he's known for black ops.

 Also with JLO who is going to sell that team, cyborg? If they just take off azreal and added dick, wally and zatanna (yes I know zatanna is in JLD) this roster could be dc's next big team. Plus if cyborg's no sell butt can be on 2 teams why not nightwing and zatanna.

----------


## Aahz

> Grayson had it Right! Nightwing should be dc's top global spy just as nightwing not agents 37. Him doing and being the same things as Batman is how he ends up looking like Batman lite, and dc will not invest in that. I mean a lot of people know nightwing from YJ and there he's known for black ops.


Don't know, DC imo never really made the Black Ops things work, most books that are initially started with this premise (Outsiders, Justice League Taskforce) go very soon in an other direction, even YJ didn't really focus much on Black ops imo.




> Also with JLO who is going to sell that team, cyborg? If they just take off azreal and added dick, wally and zatanna (yes I know zatanna is in JLD) this roster could be dc's next big team. Plus if cyborg's no sell butt can be on 2 teams why not nightwing and zatanna.


Batfamily characters and cosmic stories is also something that usually doesn't work that great.

----------


## WonderNight

But nightwing is supposed to be Batman PLUS superman. Dick should not be limited to what Batman can do. Also how is dick being on NNT that different that JLO, and is JLO supposed to sell with this roster?

----------


## Vinsanity

Please no black ops team or whatever. 

Dick Grayson as a Spy in Spyral is simple and didn't have other heroes (Huntress excluding) involved. It was the best that Dick Grayson was since he was Batman. Nightwing I think in my UO is kind of redundant since we get the same stories over and over cause it's Nightwing.

----------


## Aahz

> But nightwing is supposed to be Batman PLUS superman. Dick should not be limited to what Batman can do. Also how is dick being on NNT that different that JLO, and is JLO supposed to sell with this roster?


The differnce is that NTT wasn't completly about cosmic stories, and that and the stories were Dick was the lead (for example Judas Contract and Titans Hunt) were usually the more "normal ones" while in the cosmic/space stories that lead was usually either Donna or Kory.

If they would publish NTT nowadays a lot of people would here would probably not very pleased with the amount of screen time he had in some of the stories.

And Batman is actually still more fitting for the cosmic stuff, because of his Tech and his science skills, which are both are things Dick usually doesn't have in modern stories.

When it comes to him beeing "Batman PLUS superman", Dick might fit for his personality but not for his skill and power set.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Please no black ops team or whatever. 
> 
> Dick Grayson as a Spy in Spyral is simple and didn't have other heroes (Huntress excluding) involved. It was the best that Dick Grayson was since he was Batman. Nightwing I think in my UO is kind of redundant since we get the same stories over and over cause it's Nightwing.


Exactly. _Grayson_ was the best that the character has been in a very long time and its just sad to see him in the state he's currently in but that's what happens when his character is so mired in the past that he's not allowed to even have a future. Just the same old tired stories over and over because fans want their nostalgia more than they want the character to move forward in any meaningful or permanent way.

----------


## oasis1313

> Exactly. _Grayson_ was the best that the character has been in a very long time and its just sad to see him in the state he's currently in but that's what happens when his character is so mired in the past that he's not allowed to even have a future. Just the same old tired stories over and over because fans want their nostalgia more than they want the character to move forward in any meaningful or permanent way.


A BIG problem is the first-person POV.  I cringed when Nightwing went back to that.  I'd rather the POV be anyone else except Dick.

----------


## Moonwix

It's too obvious that JPV's spot on the JLO, could have easily gone to nightwing, if this team was formed 25 years ago but unfortunately that nightwing no longer exist. The nightwing we have today is what fans wanted, a street level low tech batman lite. Fans have always wanted Dick grounded and DC has pretty much taken this concept literally, that they have grounded the character within the dcu, both in is solo and teambook. I don't think dc has any plans for nightwing. We has fans, were lucky to get the grayson series. At this point, i don't even care any more.

----------


## BloodOps

Looks like Dick is on Team Earth during the Justice event in May, along with Amanda Waller and a bunch of others.

----------


## oasis1313

> Looks like Dick is on Team Earth during the Justice event in May, along with Amanda Waller and a bunch of others.


Maybe Amanda is Dick's next dream girl (joking).  I would say that there has been heavy bias against Dick Grayson for many more decades than even some of us oldsters have been alive, and it's not getting any better.  It's only his devout fan-base (and their tendency to steal luggage) that has kept him going this long.  We have to keep fighting, as we always have.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's too obvious that JPV's spot on the JLO, could have easily gone to nightwing, if this team was formed 25 years ago but unfortunately that nightwing no longer exist. The nightwing we have today is what fans wanted, a street level low tech batman lite. Fans have always wanted Dick grounded and DC has pretty much taken this concept literally, that they have grounded the character within the dcu, both in is solo and teambook. I don't think dc has any plans for nightwing. We has fans, were lucky to get the grayson series. At this point, i don't even care any more.


depressing

what about nightwing says mystical space adventure? Everyone in that books fits its premise.
His venture nto those territories only happen with him as supposrt into one of his allies led adventures, even if he was in that book you would proably be upset he was not charge

A spy universe doesnt exist in DC even marvel spy universe are mostly past tense with all former agent being augmented into superheroes presently

----------


## Moonwix

> depressing
> 
> what about nightwing says mystical space adventure? Everyone in that books fits its premise.
> His venture nto those territories only happen with him as supposrt into one of his allies led adventures, even if he was in that book you would proably be upset he was not charge
> 
> A spy universe doesnt exist in DC even marvel spy universe are mostly past tense with all former agent being augmented into superheroes presently


The same can be said for JPV, nothing about him screams space adventurer but there he is. It was clear that DC needed a bat character on the team and decided  to make use of him. And if Dick where  on the team,  he would be the leader.

----------


## Aioros22

> Would Bronze Tiger make a good nemsis for Nightwing


Doesnt really work, the only camp they could be rivals at would be in the spy game and Tiger hasent been used since the reboot in that sort of trope.

----------


## Alycat

This just reminds me of the good times when Bronze Tiger hated Dick for calling him Tony.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Doesnt really work, the only camp they could be rivals at would be in the spy game and Tiger hasent been used since the reboot in that sort of trope.


why doesn't it work? why can bronze only be used in one avenue

----------


## Aioros22

> why doesn't it work? why can bronze only be used in one avenue


They draw no direct connetions or parallells between the two and the only other skillset they share a similarity with is in fandom Martial Arts lists, of which they wouldn`t really be rivals at under - I believe - most writers and certainly given either publishing history since Dick isn`t a top contender guy. 

Might as well revert the question. Why do you feel it could work?

----------


## Ascended

> They draw no direct connetions or parallells between the two and the only other skillset they share a similarity with is in fandom Martial Arts lists, of which they wouldn`t really be rivals at under - I believe - most writers and certainly given either publishing history since Dick isn`t a top contender guy. 
> 
> Might as well revert the question. Why do you feel it could work?


Dick's not a top contender martial artist? 

I mean, I know he's not at the very top; characters like Shiva, Dragon, and Cass Cain (and yes, Tiger) are up there. But I figured he'd be top 10, at least. 

They're always saying he's the world's greatest acrobat, you'd think between that and a lifetime spent fighting people Nightwing would be pretty badass.

----------


## The Whovian

> Dick's not a top contender martial artist? 
> 
> I mean, I know he's not at the very top; characters like Shiva, Dragon, and Cass Cain (and yes, Tiger) are up there. But I figured he'd be top 10, at least. 
> 
> They're always saying he's the world's greatest acrobat, you'd think between that and a lifetime spent fighting people Nightwing would be pretty badass.


It's interesting that people would think that Dick isn't a top martial artist. I mean, yes, he's not on the same level as Shiva, Cass and Dragon, but they are the elite of the elite. 

Even with those three on a list, I would question someone's judgement if they didn't have Dick on the list of the greatest martial artists in the DCU. Not saying he would be #4 or anything, but he would certainly be on the list.

----------


## Assam

> But I figured he'd be top 10, at least.


If you discount incredibly minor, basically one-off characters (Natas, Silver Monkey, White Canary, etc) and 'cheaters' like Deathstroke, he's probably top 15, but I can't see an argument being made for top ten if you look at all the ma's.

----------


## Frontier

Batman, Black Canary, Cass, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger...who else?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Batman, Black Canary, Cass, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger...who else?


The only other one I can think of is Connor Hawke.

----------


## TheCape

Well since the 90s, Dick has been described as someone whose martial arts and detective skills are only second to Batman, so he is probably up in that top 10.

----------


## Aahz

> It's interesting that people would think that Dick isn't a top martial artist. I mean, yes, he's not on the same level as Shiva, Cass and Dragon, but they are the elite of the elite.


But Tiger is (or at least was) part of this elite, since he and Dragon and Shiva, belonged orignally all together.

When it comes to Dicks place thats imo hard to tell, since it really depends who you count. I mean even Shiva, Tiger and Dragon are also not exactly big characters (especially Dragon). And than you have some "Ancient Masters" like the Sensei or I-Ching, how are also quite obscure. 

I also think that Dick is often not written as capable as he imo should be(and that's the same with Jason).

----------


## Assam

> Batman, Black Canary, Cass, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger...who else?


Connor, Drakon, Wildcat, Sensei and I-Ching.

Truthfully I mistakenly thought there were more, but I didn't realize in the moment _just_ how many were either so minor they may as well not exist, 'cheaters' or all hype and no feats. Still, despite what I said, I don't think most of these guys are _that_ far ahead of Dick and I don't think it'd be weird to see him hanging with any of them, the same going to a lesser extent for him with Bruce and Dinah. 




> I also think that Dick is often not written as capable as he imo should be(and that's the same with Jason).


There definitely shouldn't be a significant gap shown between the two at this point.

----------


## Aioros22

The responses are pretty much what I'm getting at. He might be top 10 and that might doesn't make him rival material.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick cut his teeth against the likes of Deathstroke but Bronze Tiger is out of his league. Ya, sure...

Not that i have any interest in Bronze Tiger as a potential nemesis for Dick.

----------


## The Whovian

> Connor, Drakon, Wildcat, Sensei and I-Ching.


I'm definitely giving you Connor, Sensei and I-Ching. But I'm not counting one off guys like Drakon (who only have a few appearances and we're created for one or two storyarcs), and no way is Wildcat in any conversation when it comes to a list of DCU martial artists. He's almost exclusively a boxer.

----------


## The Whovian

> Batman, Black Canary, Cass, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger...who else?


No on Canary being a better fighter than Nightwing. Connor Hawke, Sensei and I-Ching would be in discussion with the rest of those you mentioned though.

----------


## Aioros22

> Dick cut his teeth against the likes of Deathstroke but Bronze Tiger is out of his league. Ya, sure...


He cut his teeth being usually overhelmed. One of the reasons that Slade was upgraded to a Batman rival in less of a decade was because he could nearly handle the entire Titans by himself. 

You don't see me advocating Jason be a top 3 contender despite looking better than Dick against Shiva and Cass or be able to fence off Jean Paul, Clay and Kate in close spaces. 

Oh, he didn't look bad against Slade in his own book either but then again they were both work for hire in that encounter.

Now if you can make a pitch where Tiger is sort of a moral rival with a grudging respect like Slade used to be that is fine but you need personal Vendetta to pull it off. Something like Spiral wanting to shut down the Squad's program or something. He just hasent been in the spy trope in recent history.

----------


## Aahz

> No on Canary being a better fighter than Nightwing. Connor Hawke, Sensei and I-Ching would be in discussion with the rest of those you mentioned though.


That might be a controversial opinion but I never had the feeling that Connor had really earned being that high on the list.

----------


## Assam

> I'm definitely giving you Connor, Sensei and I-Ching. But I'm not counting one off guys like Drakon (who only have a few appearances and we're created for one or two storyarcs), and no way is Wildcat in any conversation when it comes to a list of DCU martial artists. He's almost exclusively a boxer.


Drakon was a recurring villain who was a major part of several stories and, even if he didn't get to do anything before being one-shot by the canary cry, he's at least _appeared_ in the current continuity. 

Boxing is still a martial art and he's known as the best in the DCU. He has some great feats between Birds of Prey and especially JSA, but even if you don't think there's enough to put him over Dick in terms of skill, which is fair, his inhuman damage soak should.

----------


## The Whovian

My top ten list currently (not in order and not counting Karate Kid because I hate using him in lists like these because he seldom interacts with modern day martial artists). Also, I'm leaving Sensei and I-Ching off this list as well because they just don't have a long history to judge them by:

Shiva
Cassandra Cain
Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Connor Hawke
Batman
Nightwing
Batwoman
Red Robin (Tim Drake)
David Cain

*edit* I completely forgot about Jason. He should be on this list as well

----------


## The Whovian

> Drakon was a recurring villain who was a major part of several stories and, even if he didn't get to do anything before being one-shot by the canary cry, he's at least _appeared_ in the current continuity.


He's appeared in like 8 issues of GA. I'm not going to include a character with that short of a history over characters who have been around for decades.




> Boxing is still a martial art and he's known as the best in the DCU. He has some great feats between Birds of Prey and especially JSA, but even if you don't think there's enough to put him over Dick in terms of skill, which is fair, his inhuman damage soak should.


Boxing is not a martial art. Put a boxer in a MMA match and he will get curb stomped.

----------


## The Whovian

> That might be a controversial opinion but I never had the feeling that Connor had really earned being that high on the list.


Connor not only held his own against Shiva for a long time (before eventually losing), he's widely considered by other DCU characters to be one of the premiere fighters in the DCU.

----------


## Godlike13

> He cut his teeth being usually overhelmed. One of the reasons that Slade was upgraded to a Batman rival in less of a decade was because he could nearly handle the entire Titans by himself. 
> 
> You don't see me advocating Jason be a top 3 contender despite looking better than Dick against Shiva and Cass or be able to fence off Jean Paul, Clay and Kate in close spaces. 
> 
> Oh, he didn't look bad against Slade in his own book either but then again they were both work for hire in that encounter.


Well, no one is advocating that Dick be a top 3 contender. Dick doesn't need to be a top 3 contender to face off or defeat Bronze Tiger. Stop acting like Bronze Tiger is some big deal. He's a really good martial artists, that's not that big of a deal. Not unless they face off in a strait martial arts match. Which unless Dick is a moron, why would he do that. Its why i have no interest in characters like Bronze Tiger, or Shiva for that matter, as a nemesis for Dick. They're over hyped and honestly kind of boring, and things usually get dumb real fast.

----------


## Aioros22

Dragon 
Shiva 
Tiger
Cass
Slade
Batman

That's the revolving classic top 6. Jason, Kate, Connor, Dick, Damian, Drakon, Silver Monkey, Canary and Vic Sage and a few others will usually come below the more experienced reputed fellas.

----------


## The Whovian

> Dragon 
> Shiva 
> Tiger
> Cass
> Slade
> Batman
> 
> That's the revolving classic top 6. Jason, Kate, Connor, Dick, Damian, Drakon, Silver Monkey, Canary and Vic Sage and a few others will usually come below the more experienced reputed fellas.


The thing about Slade is that his enhancements are what allow him to hold up against characters like Batman. Take away his enhancements and I doubt he could beat anyone in the top 20. Heck, Damian recently gave him fits.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well, no one advocating that Dick be a top 3 contender. Dick doesn't need to be a top 3 contender to face off or defeat Bronze Tiger. Stop acting like Bronze Tiger is some big deal. He's a really good martial artist, that's not that big of a deal.


Im not acting like he can't defeat Tiger on a fight. I'm describing exactly what it would turn to be. An outlier rather than the norm. 

So with that in mind in what ways would you make them rivals was the question. How would he function as a proper nemesis when they lack the personal history, paralells and connections as well as a grudging respect as fighting equals.

You don't require to have all the points adressed, this isn't a straight formula but with Tiger out of the Spy game (and Dick as well) that's one out.

----------


## Aioros22

> The thing about Slade is that his enhancements are what allow him to hold up against characters like Batman. Take away his enhancements and I doubt he could beat anyone in the top 20. Heck, Damian recently gave him fits.


He shouldn't be losing his skill buf if that's how he's been written lately take Slade off and add either Splinter, Shredder or the Shadow. Any of the three is fine.

----------


## Godlike13

> Im not acting like he can't defeat Tiger on a fight. I'm describing exactly what it would turn to be. An outlier rather than the norm. 
> 
> So with that in mind in what ways would you make them rivals was the question. How would he function as a proper nemesis when they lack the personal history, paralells and connections as well as a grudging respect as fighting equals.
> 
> You don't require to have all the points adressed, this isn't a straight formula but with Tiger out of the Spy game (and Dick as well) that's one out.


Someone hires Bronze Tiger to take out Dick, Dick overcomes. He takes it personal. There you go.

----------


## The Whovian

> He shouldn't be losing his skill buf if that's how he's been written lately take Slade off and add either Splinter, Shredder or the Shadow. Any of the three is fine.


I'm not going to include those three because they don't reside in the DCU

----------


## Ascended

Can we even include Connor anymore? Dude hasn't been seen in years, and since the reboot I'm not sure if he even exists anymore.

I think Slade shouldn't count on any lists. He's a metahuman with physical enhancements; including him would be cheating. Maybe he's good enough to make the list without them, but I don't think I've seen it enough to count it.

As for Dinah....I dunno. I personally like the idea of her being top 10, and I think she's got some pretty impressive feats (not counting the canary cry of course) but I dunno if the pages actually support that.

I do know that Tim Drake doesn't belong on any "best martial artists" lists. In the early days he always talked about how Dick and Jason came by the physicality of being Robin so easily, but it was the thing that Tim himself struggled the most with. Tim was always a "brain over brawn" type of hero, and even with the years of training and experience he's had since the Dixon days I doubt he's got the natural talent to make it into the top 20, much less the top 10. 

Actually....I dont think anyone has mentioned him, but could we even include Azreal here, or would the System rule him out as a "physical enhancement super power?"

----------


## Restingvoice

Previously, DC had announced four teams to try to save the universe - Team Mystery, Team Entropy, Team Wonder, and Team Wisdom. But Snyder said there are more than that, actually. "There’s an Earth squad that’s Amanda Waller and Nightwing," he said.

https://www.newsarama.com/39220-snyd...o-justice.html

Oh, there you go. Now _that_ is interesting. I wanted them to meet in Grayson but now's good too.

----------


## The Whovian

> I do know that Tim Drake doesn't belong on any "best martial artists" lists. In the early days he always talked about how Dick and Jason came by the physicality of being Robin so easily, but it was the thing that Tim himself struggled the most with. Tim was always a "brain over brawn" type of hero, and even with the years of training and experience he's had since the Dixon days I doubt he's got the natural talent to make it into the top 20, much less the top 10.


Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list

----------


## Godlike13

> Previously, DC had announced four teams to try to save the universe - Team Mystery, Team Entropy, Team Wonder, and Team Wisdom. But Snyder said there are more than that, actually. "There’s an Earth squad that’s Amanda Waller and Nightwing," he said.
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/39220-snyd...o-justice.html
> 
> Oh, there you go. Now _that_ is interesting. I wanted them to meet in Grayson but now's good too.


Ill take a Justice League Clandestine to go with the other new JL books. Make it happen DC.

----------


## Assam

> Boxing is not a martial art..


I know several boxers and assorted other martial artists who would disagree with you there. 




> Put a boxer in a MMA match and he will get curb stomped.


This is very true. Just as it's true that if you put an MMA fighter in a boxing match, _they_ will get destroyed. It's a matter of the constraints that they aren't trained to fight within. In a non-competitive fight, those rules and restrictions aren't around. And Ted doesn't exactly _just_ use boxing moves. 




> and since the reboot I'm not sure if he even exists anymore.


He almost did...




> As for Dinah....I dunno. I personally like the idea of her being top 10, and I think she's got some pretty impressive feats (not counting the canary cry of course) but I dunno if the pages actually support that.


Based on everything I've read, Dinah should definitely be top ten. 




> Actually....I dont think anyone has mentioned him, but could we even include Azreal here, or would the System rule him out as a "physical enhancement super power?"


I don't count him as he's not very good in a fight without the System, but if one were to count him, he'd be a bit above Dick and Jay. 




> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


He may have potential, but based on what's on the page he's Top 25 at best.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


The only thing more over-rated than Tim Dredk is Shiva.  I don't think she's a big deal.

----------


## Godlike13

Can you guys not hijack this thread. Im sure there's some sort of martial art thread you can hash this stuff out in.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ill take a Justice League Clandestine to go with the other new JL books. Make it happen DC.


I noticed no artwork for a Team Terra Firma.

----------


## Godlike13

I know....

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Most of these martial artists can barely appear in more that 5 issues a year or are out of print. No artwork for No Justice and Titans is telling of their priorities.

----------


## oasis1313

> I know....


I remember well the Legion of Superheroes Espionage Squad.  Actually, I'd kinda like it if Dick kept that Hypnos gear and continued to use it.  It meta's him up a bit without meta-ing him.  There might be something good coming--I mean, "Grayson" was an unexpected GOOD surprise (for a change)--but it looks like Dick's in the rear with the gear again.

----------


## Ascended

> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


?? Must've been during one of the periods when I wasn't reading him.




> Can you guys not hijack this thread. Im sure there's some sort of martial art thread you can hash this stuff out in.


Yknow what? You're right. This isn't even about Nightwing anymore.

But he deserves a (low) spot on the top 10. Top 15, if you have to include the obscure characters like I-Ching (most of whom might not even exist in recent continuities). 




> I noticed no artwork for a Team Terra Firma.


This sounds like a new addition. Art will be forthcoming I'm sure. 

I'm down for this Team Earth deal. Grayson and Waller? Sounds like fun. I don't even care if it's a new idea they're rushing into the larger story. If it is, they recognized an oversight and are correcting it. 

Huh. I wonder. Will they be spinning Nightwing back into the spy game after this? That could be an interesting niche for him, and it'd make sense. "Grayson" was awesome, but everyone missed the "Nightwing" name and costume. So putting them together sounds like easy money to me.

Wait, he's still in Abnett's Titans after this right? Nevermind.

----------


## oasis1313

> ??
> I'm down for this. Grayson and Waller? Sounds fun. I don't even care if it's a new idea they're rushing into the story. If it is, they recognized an oversight and are correcting it. 
> 
> Huh. I wonder. Will they be spinning Nightwing back into the spy game after this? That could be an interesting niche for him, and it'd make sense. "Grayson" was awesome, but everyone missed the "Nightwing" name and costume. So putting them together sounds like easy money to me.
> 
> Wait, he's still in Abnett's Titans after this right? Nevermind.


I wish YOU were an editor at DC.

----------


## Ascended

> I wish YOU were an editor at DC.


Y'know what, me to!  :Big Grin:  I would totally be down for that. 

...I wonder how you apply for that job?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


not in the new 52

----------


## oasis1313

> Y'know what, me to!  I would totally be down for that. 
> 
> ...I wonder how you apply for that job?


I think you have to find out which bar the DC editorial staff is getting drunk in after work, then go hobnob until they think you're One Of Them.  If you ever achieve such a position of loftiness, please fire Dan Abnett with no severance pay, no future gigs lined up with DC, and no $200 for passing Go.

----------


## Ascended

> I think you have to find out which bar the DC editorial staff is getting drunk in after work, then go hobnob until they think you're One Of Them.  If you ever achieve such a position of loftiness, please fire Dan Abnett with no severance pay, no future gigs lined up with DC, and no $200 for passing Go.


Well, I don't live on the West coast, so this seems like a unlikely position for me to find myself in. 

But fire Abnett? Nah man, that's a mistake. His other work has been solid, his Aquaman pulls solid sales and positive reviews. We'd have a serious conversation about his Titans, and we'd either hash out a new direction and approach or start looking for a new writer and get Abnett a book he's better suited for. Looking at the disparity in quality I'd guess he's not happy with the job. But that's a quality dude, I wouldn't burn that bridge over one title.

Besides, Abnett's Titans isn't the problem. DC's approach to the Titans, the pitches they approve, is the problem. Abnett's just a symptom of a larger issue that, far as I know, now falls in the lap of the chief creative officer.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The same can be said for JPV, nothing about him screams space adventurer but there he is. It was clear that DC needed a bat character on the team and decided  to make use of him. And if Dick where  on the team,  he would be the leader.


why not he not leading the titans and he is not batmans right hand man
also it frees up some space in Detectives cmics more scrern time for cass and steph

----------


## The Whovian

> The only thing more over-rated than Tim Dredk is Shiva.  I don't think she's a big deal.


If Shiva is not on the list, then there is no list.




> Can you guys not hijack this thread. Im sure there's some sort of martial art thread you can hash this stuff out in.


Sorry. I only chimed in because it was being batted around that Nightwing wouldn't make the list, to which I disagree. But fair enough, I'll move on.




> not in the new 52


Well, thank goodness Rebirth put his pre-New 52 continuity back in place

----------


## Badou

It still blows my mind that Abnett's Titans gets good reviews. Maybe that is why he is still on the book when every other title is getting a new writer. No clue, but I've found his writing all the way back to Titans Hunt to be incredibly weak. It really makes no sense to me.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Well, I don't live on the West coast, so this seems like a unlikely position for me to find myself in. 
> 
> But fire Abnett? Nah man, that's a mistake. His other work has been solid, his Aquaman pulls solid sales and positive reviews. We'd have a serious conversation about his Titans, and we'd either hash out a new direction and approach or start looking for a new writer and get Abnett a book he's better suited for. Looking at the disparity in quality I'd guess he's not happy with the job. But that's a quality dude, I wouldn't burn that bridge over one title.
> 
> Besides, Abnett's Titans isn't the problem. DC's approach to the Titans, the pitches they approve, is the problem. Abnett's just a symptom of a larger issue that, far as I know, now falls in the lap of the chief creative officer.


How solid is his other work is irrelevant for the Titans, if his Aquaman is good keep him there but it's a mistake keep him in the Titans if he can not write the book, whatever the reason are; it does not matter if his editorial conditions are not optimal for him or he does not like the characters or he's trying to emulate previus runs or thinks 20's something are not different from teens, he does not work in that book.




> It still blows my mind that Abnett's Titans gets good reviews. Maybe that is why he is still on the book when every other title is getting a new writer. No clue, but I've found his writing all the way back to Titans Hunt to be incredibly weak. It really makes no sense to me.


Well, his other work is apparently pretty good, people here has been making excuses and keeping faith Well  it would get better since Titan Hunt. Many reviewr talk of growing pains and seem to think there is a plan behind the weake spots, that it's going somewhere. I think they are just waithing for a resolution that it's never going to come.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Shiva is not on the list, then there is no list.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. I only chimed in because it was being batted around that Nightwing wouldn't make the list, to which I disagree. But fair enough, I'll move on.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, thank goodness Rebirth put his pre-New 52 continuity back in place


did they now, the way chracters are returning that doesnt seem to be the case exactly
and it matters not tim is still pretty far down the line as far as martial arts goes.     I dont think we have even seen shiva since nightwing 6 lol yud think she be interested in her daughter

----------


## Restingvoice

> It still blows my mind that Abnett's Titans gets good reviews. Maybe that is why he is still on the book when every other title is getting a new writer. No clue, but I've found his writing all the way back to Titans Hunt to be incredibly weak. It really makes no sense to me.


Okay so I got curious and checked the good reviews

"Abnett (Nova, Silencer, Aquaman) is showing a strong control of all of these characters and showing the price of their victory over Troia a couple of issues ago. And he continues to exploit the long, convoluted history original Teen Titans to reinforce his plot. 

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this comic; I’ve never been a strong Titan’s fan, but after reading a couple of issues written by Dan and illustrated by Paul, I see how it holds its own very very well. I’ve been drawn into the issue throughout the entire comic. I really enjoyed the witty banter between The Brain and Monsiuer Mallah as they discuss Brain’s plan’s on world domination.

But it wasn’t just their discussion that caused me to enjoy the issue so much; I also loved how each Titan had so much heart for each other. I could see the hurt and turmoil that was reeling through Roy’s head as he felt that his friends had betrayed him. I understood from both Roy’s side and the Titans side. They knew that he needed help and didn’t want him to continue in a cycle of self-abuse and all he wanted was to explain to them what he had uncovered. Only they took it as him needing rehabilitation based upon his past usage. I love how Dan is able to approach a sensitive subject such as drug-abuse and really demonstrate how a real-life situation may take place for the abuser and the people around him.

Titans #20 shows Dan Abnett to be quite adept at splitting up stories and making each one feel mostly engaging. Of course, his time on Heroes for Hire, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Marvel’s cosmic sagas proved that years ago.

The issue’s primary theme is the risk of losing the support structure of close friends, and Dan Abnett’s storytelling skills are strongest when tackling this part of the issue. Roy Harper is a recovering addict. With the Titans disbanded he has only himself to rely on. 

The Titans need each other in a way that the Avengers or the Justice League don’t, and nothing proves that better than Roy’s fall.

Titans #19 is a good cool-down and reflection issue after the lengthy saga that was Troia’s attack on the team. 
Using the Justice League reiterates the “young ones versus old guard” dynamic of the team. It does make the Justice League look a bit douche-y, but it does make sense. These guys still look at the Titans as their teenaged partners. As such, it does make sense that the League would be inclined towards overprotective behavior.

Titans #19 functions as an excellent follow-up to the arc with Troia. It is emotionally weighty, the drama as palpable, and the art is great. This one gets a recommendation. Give it a read.

The “Troia” Saga of TITANS has been a hit-and-miss enterprise. On the one hand, the characterization of the core team and most of the villains have been fantastic. Writer Dan Abnett clearly has an understanding of the Titans’ various members. In addition, he carries that across clearly to the readers. Though adults now, the Titans are still prone to mistakes. This fact has led to some fantastic storylines. However, the eventual reveal of Troia and the implications therein were somewhat disappointing. I wanted something tying into the grander mysteries of REBIRTH. Instead, I got a character study of a time-traveling super warrior. In TITANS #19, however, I’m satisfied with this turn of events.

Dan Abnett has written these characters with an eye on growth. There is a real maturity on display for the Titans that was absent from much of the earlier run of the rebirth series. Much like the characters, this book has undergone some growing of its own. The Titans are now taking the time to listen to what their elders have to say. Not only that, but they actually take some of the advice to heart, with what might be real change on the horizon."

I don't read the book. I was disappointed when I heard it doesn't tackle Rebirth main plot. So I don't know how much of these are true, but what stood out to me is the Titans being mature is considered character growth. I don't know about the other characters but the Nightwing I read has been more emotionally mature than Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

> did they now, the way chracters are returning that doesnt seem to be the case exactly
> and it matters not tim is still pretty far down the line as far as martial arts goes.     I dont think we have even seen shiva since nightwing 6 lol yud think she be interested in her daughter


Shiva's the main antagonist in one of Detective Comics Rebirth arc where it is about her and her daughter. 

Before that, she's in New 52 Secret Six and RHATO

----------


## Rac7d*

> Shiva's the main antagonist in one of Detective Comics Rebirth arc where it is about her and her daughter. 
> 
> Before that, she's in New 52 Secret Six and RHATO


 secret six, how have i never heard of that

new 52 started in 2011 and she only recently had a reccuring apperance i am not counting the nightwing one or the red hood

----------


## Ascended

> Okay so I got curious and checked the good reviews


Huh. 

Maybe DC keeping Abnett on makes more sense now, if the book is getting good reviews from some quarters. What are the sales like?

----------


## Badou

> Okay so I got curious and checked the good reviews


I can't believe that these people are reading the same series. It's mind boggling.

----------


## Godlike13

Some of them are quite inaccurate even. There has been no growth, and the characters are not mature. Mature character’s don’t get grounded. Not one of the characters is better off now then when Abnett started. If you really look at his run what he did was deconstruct the Titans. Even though the Titans were already in shambles. He turned Nightwing into a mockery, turned Roy back into an addict, the crap with Donna, and even had JL come in and disband the Titans. His run turned out to be about why the Titans suck, and ultimately a waste of time.

But sales weren’t terrible, and Abnett got his work in on time. They clearly don’t seem very excited about the new run though, as they have no promotional material ready for it. So who knows. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are just trying to buy more time with the Titans till the tv show arrives.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Huh. 
> 
> Maybe DC keeping Abnett on makes more sense now, if the book is getting good reviews from some quarters. What are the sales like?


Umm... based on comichron the latest arc sold around 31-33,000-something copies per month

----------


## Naked Bat

I haven't read Abnett's other works and I don't know is what happens in Titans comes from editorial but this doesn't change how boring his run is.

----------


## Dzetoun

Oh, Abnett’s _Titans_ isn’t a bad seller. It isn’t exactly leading the pack, but it’s pretty solid as that kind of book goes these days. I believe it usually outsells _Teen Titans_. I guess I would characterize the reviews as “mixed.” There are some good, some bad, and a lot of “on one hand ... on the other hand.” CBR is probably unusually hard on him, perhaps because of a large concentration of Nightwing and Donna Troy fans.

----------


## Aahz

> Drakon was a recurring villain who was a major part of several stories and, even if he didn't get to do anything before being one-shot by the canary cry, he's at least _appeared_ in the current continuity.


Wasn't it implied that Drakon is a metahuman?





> Connor not only held his own against Shiva for a long time (before eventually losing), he's widely considered by other DCU characters to be one of the premiere fighters in the DCU.


But if you compare what kind of crazy training some of the others on the list have (the monks Connor grew up with are iirc hardly anywhere near being on top martial artists), it doesn't really feel earned.





> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


They sparred a few times, thats counts hardly as being trained by her.
And the current version of Tim is imo not back on the same level he reached near the end of the last continuity.

----------


## Aioros22

> Tim has held his own against some of the best. He was trained by Shiva and she even commented that if Tim let her continue to train him, he would be the best ever because he has the most potential of any fighter she has seen. He belongs on the list


Not on the same extent. He needs extra work to do it considering he always felt less of a natural than the others. If some characters were missing that would be easier but as it is, it's a hard crack in a top 10. 

Like most of his victories against the other characters have more impact in how he outsmart them, after all.

But anyhow my point was you cant just grab a character and say "nemesis" out of the air. They have to parallell or contrast in similarity to fit naturally. Nothing about Tiger tells me he would fit but any pitch you can throw I'd be interest in reading.

----------


## Naked Bat

They have to find what makes Dick unique among other heroes, what makes him different than Batman. And the writer has to know what he wants to tell about Dick. Seeley's nightwing was about Dick finding who he is again. Which kinda made sense after what happened to him, and yet, I never tought, while reading Grayson, that this was someone who didn't know who he was. And at the end of the day, Seeley didn't do much about Dick himsel, save for making him doubt himself and be self depreciating again, which doesn't fit Dick and makes him a poor man's spidey.

Raptor is a really interesting antagonist and is definitely the best part of Seeley's run. But you can't only count on him to make nightwing interesting.

Humphries so far, introduced a boring antagonist, made dick boring, but managed to give Bludhaven something that kinda made it unique. Except it wasn't enough. The judge's art was still incredibly boring and had nothing interesting to tell about Dick.

Dick being a training coach is not an interesting development for the character, nor does it say anything about who he is. What does this development brings to the table? How can it be used in an interesting way storywise? 

Higgins run wasn't that good, but focusing on the circus aspect made sense. It was true to Dick's roots. But sadly, his dick was inefficient and mopey. 

We need Dick to have a clear idea of who he is. He's been at it for years. He created his own persona, he managed to be his own batman as well and he never forgot who he was. DC and its writers need to understand this: Dick Grayson is a confident adult, who needs to have a clear goal in mind. 

Having spent years in a circus, and being from romani heritage, he should be sensible to people being ostracized, and that could be part of why he could decide to wander the world to fight injustice everywhere. Make him a humanitarian volunteer for instance. It would be true to his altruism and would explain how he travels artound the wolrd, while giving him stuffs do do outside of his nightwing identity. 

During his travel, he could discover some kind of worldwide conspiracy, wich would allow to have a bigger story, and still making smaller arcs. Make Nightwing something unique like that, with its own vibe. Made Nightwing special. Bludhaven isn't interesting enough to allow Dick to grow.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> We need Dick to have a clear idea of who he is. He's been at it for years. He created his own persona, he managed to be his own batman as well and he never forgot who he was. DC and its writers need to understand this: Dick Grayson is a confident adult, who needs to have a clear goal in mind. 
> 
> Having spent years in a circus, and being from romani heritage, he should be sensible to people being ostracized, and that could be part of why he could decide to wander the world to fight injustice everywhere. Make him a humanitarian volunteer for instance. It would be true to his altruism and would explain how he travels artound the wolrd, while giving him stuffs do do outside of his nightwing identity. 
> 
> During his travel, he could discover some kind of worldwide conspiracy, wich would allow to have a bigger story, and still making smaller arcs. Make Nightwing something unique like that, with its own vibe. Made Nightwing special. Bludhaven isn't interesting enough to allow Dick to grow.


I totally agree with you on all of this. Dick needs have something unique and that has its own vibe. Bludhaven just doesn't cut it in my opinion because it's already been done before.

----------


## Ascended

> I totally agree with you on all of this. Dick needs have something unique and that has its own vibe. Bludhaven just doesn't cut it in my opinion because it's already been done before.


This reminds me of the "what do you need to be an A-lister?" question that I've debated on the forums a few times. 

A unique niche for Dick......that could be a few different things. 

It could be the "night-time protector of super cities" idea that I've championed in this thread before. You take Nightwing, drop him in a city with powerful, high-end superhuman threats, and let him patrol the night. A Bat having Super adventures. That's not something we see in the DCU outside of cartoons like Brave & The Bold or Batman's adventures with the League (which don't count).  

It'd be a fun role that plays up both sides of Dick's childhood influences, but it's hard to make that into a niche that really matters, I think. It'd give Dick something to do that isn't common, but "I fight things way, way stronger than me!" isn't a niche you can easily build an A-list character out of, I think.

You could do the "super-spy" thing; mixing "Grayson" with the Nightwing name and costume. I suggested that just on the last page or so, after hearing about the No Justice thing with Dick and Waller. DC doesn't really have a super-spy, nor even a big organization like SHIELD (Argus is a pale imitation with limited potential and we all know it). It'd be a nice fit for Dick; global, James Bond-esque adventures in a superhuman setting is right up his alley. And we've already got plenty of building blocks to make that happen.

As much as I'd like to see Dick fighting alien invaders and higher dimensional wrestlers, the super-spy role is probably the better choice, as it provides a "service" no one else in DC fulfills to any meaningful degree. 

You could also make Nightwing the "great teacher" of the DCU. They guy who brings out the best in new, rookie heroes and/or the one who steers potential villains away from crime before they've fallen too far. Dick's got the skillset for it and has the experience, given his time with the Titans. You could have rookie heroes from all over the world flock to learn under Grayson's sharp eye, and have Dick hunt down new superhumans to help them gain control of their powers before they become a threat. It'd be a respected position in-universe for sure, but I'm not sure if it'd be the most exciting thing to read about, and making Dick the "DCU's greatest teacher" doesn't sound nearly as exciting a niche as "master of time travel" or "destroyer of mythological threats." Plus it's a little X-Men-ish and that's not a franchise I think Nightwing should be trying to ape right now.

But it'd give Dick a reason to be on a team.

You could also make Nightwing the "anti-JLA" hero. The hero who looks at how the League handles itself and thinks they're going about it the wrong way. So however the League is conducting itself, Nightwing does the opposite. If the League is working closely with the UN or some other formal organization, Nightwing is the rogue hero; the Robin Hood who refuses to play by authority's rules. If the League is pulling a JLU cartoon and getting too big for their britches, you have Nightwing being the voice of moderation and claiming that the heroes are throwing off society's balance.

It'd be fun to see Dick in a perpetual "rebel" role, but it'd be defined by what the League isn't, as opposed to what Nightwing is. And the League's mandate and methodology changes periodically, which means Nightwing will have to change in response. Doesn't strike me as a viable A-list niche. Though perhaps Roy Harper could make it work.....

Whatever role or niche you give Nightwing, it has to be open ended. It can't be a crusade he can ever actually win. You go back and think about characters like Jaime Reyes' Blue Beetle. His first series was largely built around the threat of the Reach, and how Jaime was the only person who could stop them. It served the book well for two years, but once the Reach were dealt with, Jaime suddenly had no purpose and he floundered. Same thing happened to Damage in the 90's; once he found out where he came from, he lost all reason for wearing the costume and the quality of his title crashed.

As for Bludhaven, I like the city. I liked what Dixon did with it originally, and while I've fallen behind on current Nightwing, the idea that the city mixes Metropolis sci-fi with Gotham grit is a good hook. But while I think the city is great as a place for Dick to hang his hat and relax between adventures, I don't think he benefits from being tied to a single setting. He's got too much wanderlust in him for that, and he needs to travel on a regular basis.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This reminds me of the "what do you need to be an A-lister?" question that I've debated on the forums a few times. 
> 
> A unique niche for Dick......that could be a few different things. 
> 
> It could be the "night-time protector of super cities" idea that I've championed in this thread before. You take Nightwing, drop him in a city with powerful, high-end superhuman threats, and let him patrol the night. A Bat having Super adventures. That's not something we see in the DCU outside of cartoons like Brave & The Bold or Batman's adventures with the League (which don't count).  
> 
> It'd be a fun role that plays up both sides of Dick's childhood influences, but it's hard to make that into a niche that really matters, I think. It'd give Dick something to do that isn't common, but "I fight things way, way stronger than me!" isn't a niche you can easily build an A-list character out of, I think.
> 
> *You could do the "super-spy" thing; mixing "Grayson" with the Nightwing name and costume. I suggested that just on the last page or so, after hearing about the No Justice thing with Dick and Waller. DC doesn't really have a super-spy, nor even a big organization like SHIELD (Argus is a pale imitation with limited potential and we all know it). It'd be a nice fit for Dick; global, James Bond-esque adventures in a superhuman setting is right up his alley. And we've already got plenty of building blocks to make that happen.*
> ...


You and I think alike on this. Any of those ideas would be great for him but I was really hoping the bolded would have happened as a result of _Grayson_. I thought that was a really great angle for him and that the book itself made a very nice start toward that end. I really wanted to see him head up the spy corner of the DCU and I really wanted to see Seeley and King continue to write those adventures. Its a shame really.

----------


## Ascended

I suppose I need to add Nightwing to the list of characters I'd like to oversee, right next to Superman and Cyborg.....

Shame I'll never be an editor at DC.

----------


## Badou

So next week starts the fill in issues until Percy takes over. It's really bad timing that they threw Roy in the series given Roy just beat Dick's face in in Abnett's Titans series, lol.

----------


## Aahz

> You could also make Nightwing the "great teacher" of the DCU. They guy who brings out the best in new, rookie heroes and/or the one who steers potential villains away from crime before they've fallen too far. Dick's got the skillset for it and has the experience, given his time with the Titans. You could have rookie heroes from all over the world flock to learn under Grayson's sharp eye, and have Dick hunt down new superhumans to help them gain control of their powers before they become a threat. It'd be a respected position in-universe for sure, but I'm not sure if it'd be the most exciting thing to read about, and making Dick the "DCU's greatest teacher" doesn't sound nearly as exciting a niche as "master of time travel" or "destroyer of mythological threats." Plus it's a little X-Men-ish and that's not a franchise I think Nightwing should be trying to ape right now.


That would make him probably more a support character.





> You could also make Nightwing the "anti-JLA" hero. The hero who looks at how the League handles itself and thinks they're going about it the wrong way. So however the League is conducting itself, Nightwing does the opposite. If the League is working closely with the UN or some other formal organization, Nightwing is the rogue hero; the Robin Hood who refuses to play by authority's rules. If the League is pulling a JLU cartoon and getting too big for their britches, you have Nightwing being the voice of moderation and claiming that the heroes are throwing off society's balance.
> 
> It'd be fun to see Dick in a perpetual "rebel" role, but it'd be defined by what the League isn't, as opposed to what Nightwing is. And the League's mandate and methodology changes periodically, which means Nightwing will have to change in response. Doesn't strike me as a viable A-list niche. Though perhaps Roy Harper could make it work.....


Isn't that more or less what Green Arrow does? And Dick is anyway not really the most rebellious of the Robins.

----------


## Restingvoice

> This reminds me of the "what do you need to be an A-lister?" question that I've debated on the forums a few times. 
> 
> A unique niche for Dick......that could be a few different things. 
> 
> It could be the "night-time protector of super cities" idea that I've championed in this thread before. You take Nightwing, drop him in a city with powerful, high-end superhuman threats, and let him patrol the night. A Bat having Super adventures. That's not something we see in the DCU outside of cartoons like Brave & The Bold or Batman's adventures with the League (which don't count).


Twilight protector. I like the idea that crimes in Gotham happen at midnight, Metropolis happen at noon and Bludhaven happen at twilight.
Add Haley's Circus and Romani's traveling element and make him The Twilight Traveler
Here then, gone the next, like a mysterious romantic hero with a great smile on a sunset backdrop

----------


## pandesal

Just wanted to share this fun Grayson blank cover commission, easily one of my favorites that I own. Dick Grayson, Matron, Midnighter & Ninel freaking Dubov(!) go on an extreme new mission! Inspired by early 90's comics like X-Force and WildCATs, this sketch cover features many of the tropes of that era like big guns, casual shirtless heroes, clothing damage and pouches, pouches everywhere! Art by the amazing Lan Medina.

----------


## Ascended

> That would make him probably more a support character.


Yeah, it probably would, in a lot of ways. He'd guest star all over the place, and his movement around the DCU would be easy to rationalize. But he'd always be "the coach." Yknow how at the end of a big Event you have that final panel focusing in on your main characters as everyone celebrates a hard won victory? Dick will forever be the guy in the background of that panel, giving the spotlight to his students. It's a cool role, in it's way. Everyone loves a good coach. But it's not a role I want to see Dick in.




> Isn't that more or less what Green Arrow does? And Dick is anyway not really the most rebellious of the Robins.


Only insofar as the League is usually more right-wing than Ollie. Ollie's aimed in his direction regardless of what anyone else does, but he's so far left wing everyone else looks conservative from his vantage point. He's the old hippe/SJW; good heart, but pretty bigoted in his own way. With this idea, Dick would be more of the devil's advocate. What is the League morality looking like these days? Dick challenges it. Because it needs to be challenged so everybody is in check. You could even make it deliberate, with Dick and Bruce coming to the decision together. Fun idea. Seems like a shaky status quo.




> Twilight protector. I like the idea that crimes in Gotham happen at midnight, Metropolis happen at noon and Bludhaven happen at twilight.
> Add Haley's Circus and Romani's traveling element and make him The Twilight Traveler
> Here then, gone the next, like a mysterious romantic hero with a great smile on a sunset backdrop


I like those themes. That works.

----------


## yohyoi

I for one am excited for Percy's upcoming run. If I ranked the arcs so far, my favorites are:
1. Better Than Batman/ Nightwing Must Die
2. Untouchable

Humphries should have stayed for one more arc. But I consider Percy to be one of DC's top writers with King, Johns and Priest, so I'm not worried. Nightwing Rebirth has been great in my opinion. I have no plans to stop reading it (unlike Titans).

----------


## Godlike13

Like with with Humphries I’m not convinced that it’s actually going to be a run, but another hit and run arc.

----------


## Frontier

I feel like we won't have a concrete _Nightwing_ creative team until they relaunch the book again like they're doing with some of DC's other titles.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, there will probably be a new relaunch wave coming after the JL books come out. Probably focusing on the Batman books with some new branding and everything like they are doing with the JL line titles. So I don't expect Percy to stick around for too long either. 

I think their original plan was to wait until Doomsday Clock wraps up to do a lot of relaunches, but because that is moving so slow (won't finish up until like Spring or Summer 2019) that they will do a relaunch sooner for the Batman line. Maybe once King wraps up his Wedding arc they will do it.




> Just wanted to share this fun Grayson blank cover commission, easily one of my favorites that I own. Dick Grayson, Matron, Midnighter & Ninel freaking Dubov(!) go on an extreme new mission! Inspired by early 90's comics like X-Force and WildCATs, this sketch cover features many of the tropes of that era like big guns, casual shirtless heroes, clothing damage and pouches, pouches everywhere! Art by the amazing Lan Medina.


This looks awesome. Nice commission.

----------


## yohyoi

Percy will write for an arc or two. His run may end at the same time Doomsday Clock will end. The perfect time to relaunch Nightwing with a concrete creative team. Percy might go down the Grayson -> Nightwing turn where Seeley did a great in Grayson so he continued with Rebirth Nightwing.

----------


## oasis1313

NINEL !!!!!!!!!!!!  I love Ninel !!!!!  He should be an ongoing supporting character!!!!!

----------


## WonderNight

man that Grayson commission is awesome. guys remember when dick had a cool supporting cast. as a dick and Stephanie fan rebirth has been kind of hard.

----------


## Rac7d*

> man that Grayson commission is awesome. guys remember when dick had a cool supporting cast. as a dick and Stephanie fan rebirth has been kind of hard.


not for me,  Helena never clicked for me and she was danm well the deutrgonist. midnighter was an awesome addition however. But anything that kept him from babs and damian is no Bueno in my books

----------


## SiegePerilous02

As a solo character (as in, outside of his core Bat-Family relationships and the Titans), Grayson had the best supporting cast for Dick. Helena, Tiger, Midnighter, Elizabeth Netz, Poppy and the Skull Girls leave everything else he's ever had in the dust.

----------


## Naked Bat

To me, aside from his time as Batman under Morrison's pen, Grayson has been the best the character has ever been. Granted, Dixon did some great stuff on Nightwing and Tomasi too, but Grayson was something really unique.

----------


## Rac7d*

> To me, aside from his time as Batman under Morrison's pen, Grayson has been the best the character has ever been. Granted, Dixon did some great stuff on Nightwing and Tomasi too, but Grayson was something really unique.


He really came int his own their, its after 60 years he could finally be the man Bruce expected him to be if he was gone. Which is the true source of most of our frustration. We know where he should be and hwen he is HE IS INCREDIBLE but we also ave to grudgingly accept the slim chance he will never get ot be batman again.     I will always love his mentorship, hell fathership to damian, damian's best qualities came from his time under dick and I love the respect and care they have for each other. I hate that the films skipped it entirelly

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> As a solo character (as in, outside of his core Bat-Family relationships and the Titans), Grayson had the best supporting cast for Dick. Helena, Tiger, Midnighter, Elizabeth Netz, Poppy and the Skull Girls leave everything else he's ever had in the dust.


I love this cast but the problem is that each new writer wants to put their own stamp on the Nightwing mythos and Dick can never build a good supporting cast. I was pleasantly surprised that Humphries used Svoboda but what are the chances, now that we've lost Seeley, that we'll see Tiger and Midnighter again? I mean it's not like anything from Higgins run is still used.  I want to see more Jen dammit

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I love this cast but the problem is that each new writer wants to put their own stamp on the Nightwing mythos and Dick can never build a good supporting cast. I was pleasantly surprised that Humphries used Svoboda but what are the chances, *now that we've lost Seeley, that we'll see Tiger and Midnighter again?* I mean it's not like anything from Higgins run is still used.  I want to see more Jen dammit


Unlikely, unfortunately. I was disappointed not to see much of Midnighter or other Wildstorm elements in Nightwing. Dick being in the DCU's version of the Wildstorm universe is another cool niche that he could have called his own, especially when it was mixed with neglected Morrison elements like Spyral and (ideally) the Clubs of Heroes and Villains. At least with King on Batman, we might still get Tiger.

I miss the Fist of Cain too. They were fun, and practically limitless.

----------


## Claude

Well, King has used Tiger in "Batman" and has said he has a Bruce/Dick story coming up...

Hopefully Janin is on art and we can get some proper "Grayson" nostalgia!

----------


## Aahz

> I love this cast but the problem is that each new writer wants to put their own stamp on the Nightwing mythos and Dick can never build a good supporting cast. I was pleasantly surprised that Humphries used Svoboda but what are the chances, now that we've lost Seeley, that we'll see Tiger and Midnighter again? I mean it's not like anything from Higgins run is still used.  I want to see more Jen dammit


Midnighter isn't really part of Dicks supporting cast, if he will turn up again is probably more dependent on what DC wants do with this character.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Eh, there was a time when he was popping up more regularly than the family. Plus, after they realised they were on the same side (more or less) they actually had a pretty healthy relationship. I think since the new 52, Dick has a better relationship with Midnighter than he does with Tim, Kate, Cass and a lot of the others, based on canon appearances anyway. I don't know what specifically constitutes a supporting character exactly. Imo he would count.

----------


## Badou

> Percy will write for an arc or two. His run may end at the same time Doomsday Clock will end. The perfect time to relaunch Nightwing with a concrete creative team. Percy might go down the Grayson -> Nightwing turn where Seeley did a great in Grayson so he continued with Rebirth Nightwing.


I feel like Seeley stuck with Nightwing out of loyalty a bit. He did not want to write Nightwing at first as he didn't like Bludhaven and Blockbuster which he was going to be forced to use, but I think with King moving on to Batman I think he wanted to try and smooth the transition from Grayson to Nightwing, especially as the final arc in Grayson was turned to crap to get ready for Rebirth. I think Seeley was very disappointed that he couldn't finish his Grayson story that they originally planned. I don't see Percy having nearly that amount of loyalty to stick with Nightwing and I think his Nightwing run is just going to be a pit stop for him.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I feel like Seeley stuck with Nightwing out of loyalty a bit. He did not want to write Nightwing at first as he didn't like Bludhaven and Blockbuster which he was going to be forced to use, but I think with King moving on to Batman I think he wanted to try and smooth the transition from Grayson to Nightwing, especially as the final arc in Grayson was turned to crap to get ready for Rebirth. I think Seeley was very disappointed that he couldn't finish his Grayson story that they originally planned. I don't see Percy having nearly that amount of loyalty to stick with Nightwing and I think his Nightwing run is just going to be a pit stop for him.


I think I saw a tweet from him where he was asked what his favorite series was to work on. Hack/Slash was one, and rather pointedly, Grayson was the other. Nightwing wasn't mentioned lol.

I know this isn't a popular opinion of mine in here, but I honestly feel like the Nightwing identity should be dropped if they could ever get away with it. it's sustainable, but creativity wise, it's almost never been great either. Keeping it around for other media synergy can't be worth it as the DCEU in general is on shaky ground and the Nightwing movie is less likely than most. He'll probably become Nightwing in Titans , but A. It has to prove successful, and B. depending on when they run out material for him as Robin.

----------


## Godlike13

The quality of Nightwing has lot to do with the quality DC themselves puts into it.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The quality of Nightwing has lot to do with the quality DC themselves puts into it.


Yes, but I feel the quality they put into the other hats he's worn (Robin naturally, but also Batman II and Agent 37) has generally always been higher what they put into Nightwing. If they are not going to put the quality into Nightwing, maybe it's best to put the quality elsewhere?

----------


## Badou

> The quality of Nightwing has lot to do with the quality DC themselves puts into it.


The question then becomes can you expect quality from Nightwing when DC wants to anchor Nightwing to Bludhaven at the same time? I don't know if Bludhaven will ever be a setting or a concept that will attract quality creators to want to work on the title and see it as a destination to want to make their mark instead of just a stepping stone to something else. 

I don't want to go down the bashing Bludhaven path again, we've discussed it endlessly, but I just don't think that in a broad sense it will become a setting where creators want to jump at the chance to play in where maybe others setting could.

----------


## dietrich

Nightwing by Otto Schmidt



Happy Birthday Grayson

----------


## Timber Wolf-By-Night

Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?

And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?


It seems to have come from _Grayson_, but I think it caught on because a). it makes sense for the character considering his circus background and b). nothing interesting has ever materialized from the city that they tried to tie him down to anyway. Hence why, after _Grayson_, it made even less sense to send him back to Bludhaven. It is even less appealing to those who are not 90s Nightwing fans. 

He has a city he calls his home and where his family resides: it's called Gotham. Otherwise, until the day he inherits the city from a retired/dead Bruce, he shouldn't set up shop there permanently. Or anywhere else really.

----------


## dietrich

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?


I think DC and writers ignore the Romani thing.

----------


## Alycat

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?



Because it makes sense. There is no reason for Dick to want to stay tied to Bludhaven ( His family isn't there, he has no stable job or relationships there). Its boring as sin and serves little purpose unless people want Not-Batman. It got blown up and was actually a positive to Dick cause he wasn't stuck there anymore.




> I think DC and writers ignore the Romani thing.


I mean some very recent Nightwing arcs dealt with him being Romani still so its not that ignored.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Honestly Dick always had his wanderlust satisfied throughout his life but with the switch to a Batman who is emotionally attached to Gotham in an unbalanced way in the 80’s so did that influence his 90’s Bat Editorial return. Bludhaven would be okay if they took a 70’s Batman approach it would be okay but they try to play it like Batman/Daredevil but their is not one ounce of emotional attachment that Bruce & Matt have because it is tethered to their origins and growth. Batman and Daredevil will live and die in Gotham/Hell’s Kitchen NY and have BELIEVABLE supporting casts that have a standard template as they will always be apart of their world. What character as support has attached themselves? Raptor is dead! Blockbuster is a hand me down to simple to carry a story. Bludhaven and Nightwing will always not mesh since he can get his whole cast thrown out in favor of a Bat event, DC Event or shipping wars.

----------


## Badou

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?


Well the world traveling part I think started with Grayson, but before his solo in the 90s he was mostly a Titans character living in Titans tower. Then when the Batman office got him back they put him in Bludhaven to be a cop which had no foundation for too at that time. That lasted for a while and different creators in the 00s started giving him different jobs (none fit) and even moved him to NYC for a bit before he went back to Gotham again when he became Batman. Then the New 52 happened and he was traveling with the circus for a while, settled in Gotham again, and moved to Chicago too. Then we got the Grayson series which made him a spy for Spyral and operated out of England. Then Rebirth happened and they moved him back to Bludhaven. 

I think the fact that Dick grew up in a traveling circus, constantly changes his job and career, doesn't have a consistent love interest anymore, and has operated out of several different cities feeds into the wanderlust aspect that you see more of now.

----------


## Aahz

> Eh, there was a time when he was popping up more regularly than the family. Plus, after they realised they were on the same side (more or less) they actually had a pretty healthy relationship. I think since the new 52, Dick has a better relationship with Midnighter than he does with Tim, Kate, Cass and a lot of the others, based on canon appearances anyway. I don't know what specifically constitutes a supporting character exactly. Imo he would count.


I would usually define a support charcter as a character that is part of the same series/franchise and supports a main character. For example someone like Tiger.
Midnighter is not a Batman character and actually had his own book (that was also not part of the Batman franchise) during that time. I would call him a guest character.

I think a main reason that Midnighter popped up was that they wanted to push him and his book. And a big reason that he doesn't pop anymore up is most likely that his book flopped and he is back in limbo. And there fore we get now guest appearances of other characters like Wally, Damian and Roy.

----------


## Ascended

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?


Well, I suppose for me the idea of Dick having a kind of wanderlust started to come into focus when he owned Haley's Circus, back in the start of the New52 or whenever.

Dick had been shifting jobs and cities for years, never holding down a steady status quo for too long in the modern era. That's just editors and writers not being able to stick to a direction, but considering the nomadic nature of circus performers the whole thing suddenly took on a new shape in my head. And as Dick went from running the circus to not running it, to Chicago, to Agent 37, then back to Bludhaven......it just clicked. Yeah, its just bad management but it's been a thing for so long and so many of his modern stories have involved him starting fresh in a new town or whatever.....it's seeped from administration screw ups down into the character. And to my mind, it fits.

----------


## Godlike13

The first in comic reference to Dick not being able to sit still that i can recall was Black Mirror. 

And Midnighter's book spun out of Grayson.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I think I saw a tweet from him where he was asked what his favorite series was to work on. Hack/Slash was one, and rather pointedly, Grayson was the other. Nightwing wasn't mentioned lol.
> 
> I know this isn't a popular opinion of mine in here, but I honestly feel like the Nightwing identity should be dropped if they could ever get away with it. it's sustainable, but creativity wise, it's almost never been great either. .


Kind of agree with it should be dropped. I mean we have seen great stuff with Dick Grayson outside Nightwing, so a change might be great. It won't happen htough

----------


## Frontier

> I know this isn't a popular opinion of mine in here, but I honestly feel like the Nightwing identity should be dropped if they could ever get away with it. it's sustainable, but creativity wise, it's almost never been great either. Keeping it around for other media synergy can't be worth it as the DCEU in general is on shaky ground and the Nightwing movie is less likely than most. He'll probably become Nightwing in Titans , but A. It has to prove successful, and B. depending on when they run out material for him as Robin.


Press release for_ Titans_ has referred to him as Nightwing a few times and if they really are casting for Jason Todd then I expect the switch to Nightwing will probably happen in the first seaosn.

----------


## Rac7d*

I just check online Bronze tiger is a villain
 so again i would like to see Nightwing mess around with him,

----------


## Restingvoice

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" horseshit even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?


Just because it's done bad in the past doesn't mean it can't be handled well in the future by a different writer. Nobody will count the bad story if they have something new and good to replace it. If they want to.

Also, I don't care where it came from. Any elements that can differentiate him with Batman I will consider, whether it's traveling, Circus, being an ideal big brother, sex symbol or Roma heritage, because if he's too similar to Batman, DC will prefer to use that story for Batman. I myself always prefer Batman stories because he has better setting, villain and toys. Nightwing needs to be better, but he won't be prioritized if he's using similar elements. So I want him to be different and excel at that difference.

Of course, that doesn't mean if DC use my idea they will automatically sell. If the standard status quo sells and it satisfies DC enough to not change anything, it is what it is, and I will just make a fanfic.

----------


## Restingvoice

Jimenez cover for The Brave, The Obnoxious and The Inept
DZY2AJEWkAICZ_t.jpg

----------


## Alycat

Oh hey, it's Roy. The guy that beat Dick up and who barely talk to each other. Nope, not bitter at all that its taken this long to acknowledge their relationship.

----------


## Godlike13

Screw their relationship after Titans, lol. Roy sucks, and he is the last Titan I want to see anywhere near Nightwing. It’s a joke that he’s popping up in Nightwing right after that butt wiping of Nightwing in Titans. It’s not like they ever had a strong or mutuallly beneficial relationship.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Where did this notion that Dick has "too much wanderlust" (or any wanderlust, really) come from?  Granted, I'm a 90's Nightwing fan, but during that time, "wanderlust" was most certainly NOT one of his traits.  It made SENSE that he operated in one city at a time.  Where did this "Dick must be traveling the world constantly" *horseshit* even COME from?
> 
> And can we please once and for all acknowledge that Devin Grayson's retcon that Dick Grayson comes from Romani heritage, done at a time when he'd previously been portrayed as a caucasian male and had always behaved as such, and done most likely because DC wouldn't let her turn him into a bisexual, was a poorly researched and sloppily executed stunt that should be ignored forever?


Watch your mouth. You may not like the idea, but that doesn't make it a bad one. 

We have nothing to aknowledge. You have your opinion and that's fine, but not everybody has to share it.

This back to basics approach on nightwing is far from being a success so far. While Seeley managed to do some great stuff, there are also a lot of boring stuff and nightwing as protector of bludhaven is really not that interesting.

Him wanting to travel makes sense, since he grew up in a circus. It's an inetresting and natural development.

----------


## Naked Bat

> Just because it's done bad in the past doesn't mean it can't be handled well in the future by a different writer. Nobody will count the bad story if they have something new and good to replace it. If they want to.
> 
> Also, I don't care where it came from. Any elements that can differentiate him with Batman I will consider, whether it's traveling, Circus, being an ideal big brother, sex symbol or Roma heritage, because if he's too similar to Batman, DC will prefer to use that story for Batman. I myself always prefer Batman stories because he has better setting, villain and toys. Nightwing needs to be better, but he won't be prioritized if he's using similar elements. So I want him to be different and excel at that difference.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't mean if DC use my idea they will automatically sell. If the standard status quo sells and it satisfies DC enough to not change anything, it is what it is, and I will just make a fanfic.


I agree with you about Dc needing to differentiate Dick from Batman more. Lately, he's also been a poor man spidey in the way he's always lamenting about how he didn't do the right thing etc.

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## jbmasta

> Watch your mouth. You may not like the idea, but that doesn't make it a bad one. 
> 
> We have nothing to aknowledge. You have your opinion and that's fine, but not everybody has to share it.
> 
> This back to basics approach on nightwing is far from being a success so far. While Seeley managed to do some great stuff, there are also a lot of boring stuff and nightwing as protector of bludhaven is really not that interesting.
> 
> Him wanting to travel makes sense, since he grew up in a circus. It's an inetresting and natural development.


Travel also opens up story lines and characters where it would be contrived to feature them in Dick’s home base city. Different environments for Dick to operate in (city, country, forest, desert etc). Not everything happens in Metropolis, Gotham or Bludhaven. As you say, it’s his in background that he travelled around the country so it’s consistent in his characterisation he’d have itchy feet. He doesn’t have anyone tying him to Bludhaven at the moment anyway.

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## Godlike13

Constantly traveling can make it hard to build a mythos, especially when these characters see so many different creators. Not that it can’t be done. They would just need to find to way to make things like supporting characters travel with him, or have some point to which he regroups back to. With Dick we have seen traveling work and we have seen it not work. Grayson made it work, but with Higgins run not so much. Felt like he was just aimlessly searching for something to do with no support or consistency.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Constantly traveling can make it hard to build a mythos, especially when these characters see so many different creators. Not that it can’t be done. They would just need to find to way to make things like supporting characters travel with him, or have some point to which he regroups back to. With Dick we have seen traveling work and we have seen it not work. Grayson made it work, but with Higgins run not so much. Felt like he was just aimlessly searching for something to do with no support or consistency.


They wanted to tie Saiko's reveal to The Court of Owls finale, so they have to stall until the seventh issue, and it shows.

----------


## WonderNight

yeah if nightwing travels he would still need an HQ for world building.

----------


## Aioros22

> Screw their relationship after Titans, lol. Roy sucks, and he is the last Titan I want to see anywhere near Nightwing. It’s a joke that he’s popping up in Nightwing right after that butt wiping of Nightwing in Titans. It’s not like they ever had a strong or mutuallly beneficial relationship.


Man, the trigger. 

Like the snapping on a bow`s string in the morning.

----------


## Alycat

I remember when Dick and Roy were buds and Dick was an uncle to Lian. Those good days.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Constantly traveling can make it hard to build a mythos, especially when these characters see so many different creators. Not that it can’t be done. They would just need to find to way to make things like supporting characters travel with him, or have some point to which he regroups back to. With Dick we have seen traveling work and we have seen it not work. Grayson made it work, but with Higgins run not so much. Felt like he was just aimlessly searching for something to do with no support or consistency.


They would need to provide consistent supporting characters and villains who are similarly not tied down to one location. The Spyral cast (even if they have a headquarters, they can pop up anywhere), Midnighter, Raptor, the new Deathwing, the Fist of Cain, and even the Morrison Bat-villains that Dick has equal claim to like Dr. Hurt, Pyg, Flamingo, and the Club of Villains can travel along with him.

----------


## Ascended

> They would need to provide consistent supporting characters and villains who are similarly not tied down to one location. The Spyral cast (even if they have a headquarters, they can pop up anywhere), Midnighter, Raptor, the new Deathwing, the Fist of Cain, and even the Morrison Bat-villains that Dick has equal claim to like Dr. Hurt, Pyg, Flamingo, and the Club of Villains can travel along with him.


Exactly.

You build a small supporting cast and rogues gallery in his hometown. Blockbuster and his inner circle of enforcers as well as the endless supply of random thugs in Blockbuster's employ. Maybe bring back Torque, Lady Vic, or whoever. And for the supporting cast you've got a landlord, a couple friends, a cop or three who help Dick stay up to date on the town while he's away.

Then you build another small supporting cast for Dick's travels abroad. The Spyral crew, or a supporting cast built from the concept, would work fine. For villains you have Pyg and his crew, Double Trouble (or whatever those twin acrobat thieves called themselves) Dr. Hurt....Dick's time as Batman opened up a number of villains who could work just fine. And since it's unlikely any of them will get decent panel time in Gotham, where they have to compete against the popularity of Joker, Two-Face, etc., Nightwing may as well take them back. And of course Nightwing has had a few foes who would fit this mold really well if they were taken off the shelf and put back in play.

Add in a few villains who make a point of hunting down Dick wherever he may be, such as Raptor and Deathwing, and you're pretty much ready to go.

A semi-nomadic lifestyle doesn't stop a good supporting cast or setting from being created, you just have to adjust how you do it.

----------


## oasis1313

If Dick needs a hometown,  why make it Bludhaven, Metropolis, or Chicago or some place that's been done before?  You could take all the former Robins and farm them out in cool places like London, Moscow, or Berlin on the Batman Inc concept.

----------


## Ascended

I don't think it would really matter where Dick calls home, as long as its not Gotham. I mean, it ultimately all boils down to execution, but the best toys in Gotham are either (mostly) off-limits to anyone but Bruce, or it would force Dick back into "junior partner" territory, which isn't where we want Nightwing.

As long as Dick's not literally under Bruce's shadow I think we'd be fine wherever Dick calls home. It would just be in how the writer tackles the setting/city. 

I still dont get the hate Bludhaven gets here though. It was a great setting under Dixon, with tons of interesting characters and history and it was different enough from Gotham to provide great contrast, while still being grimy and gross enough to have that "Gotham charm" to it. And the new version seems decent, with a nice blend of neon grit and questionable shadows, mobsters and fish-men. Plus there's enough of a foundation for Nightwing there for a writer to build on while still adding their own stuff.

I'd be fine with a city in Europe or Russia or wherever too. Actually, Taiwan or Hong Kong or Tokyo would all be pretty interesting places to put Nightwing too. I just question whether most writers could pull off such a place properly; I doubt most comic writers have spent ample time in Hong Kong after all. If they wanted to get Dick out of America, I'd like to see them invent a new city for him so no one has to try and fake familiarity with a place people really live in.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, like i said before the quality of Nightwing has lot to do with the quality DC themselves puts into it. Higgins run was mess, DC was too busy with New 52 and was just trying to put anything together. I can't even fault Higgins too badly because DC did not put Higgins into a position to succeed. Grayson on the other hand was completely different. DC finally decided to think outside the box and try something new, and it had two hungry creators and a dynamite artist that were excited create what they were creating. Nightwing though was about putting things back into a box, but that is part of what Rebirth in general was about. Thats not on the Nightwing persona, they could do out of the box with Nightwing. Hell the could have called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson and it wouldn't have changed anything. They just choose not to for some reason. 
Its not like the Nightwing run was even bad though. I still think the stuff with Raptor was up there with the stuff we were getting with Grayson, and this new Bludheven is better than Bludhaven has even been. Both visually and its background. Seeley though seemed to have lost his excitement, especially with the Bludhaven stuff, and now unfortunately it seems like they are just looking for creators to just do a job and fill up an arc, which is not good. Its not good for consistent stories, and its not good for world building. Even more at the same time they are letting other creators wipe their butt with the character. This isn't on Nightwing, this is on DC. They are not protecting the character, and don't seem interested in wanting to come up with a real plan for the character going forward. I don't care what they they call him, or what city they put him in, no character is gonna look good or flourish with that kind of handling.

----------


## The Whovian

> I still dont get the hate Bludhaven gets here though. It was a great setting under Dixon, with tons of interesting characters and history and it was different enough from Gotham to provide great contrast, while still being grimy and gross enough to have that "Gotham charm" to it. And the new version seems decent, with a nice blend of neon grit and questionable shadows, mobsters and fish-men. Plus there's enough of a foundation for Nightwing there for a writer to build on while still adding their own stuff.


Agreed. I like Bludhaven too for all the reasons you mentioned.

----------


## oasis1313

> Agreed. I like Bludhaven too for all the reasons you mentioned.


Those are indeed good reasons, but the character of the town needs to continue to be fleshed out.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If Dick needs a hometown,  why make it Bludhaven, Metropolis, or Chicago or some place that's been done before?  You could take all the former Robins and farm them out in cool places like London, Moscow, or Berlin on the Batman Inc concept.


It can work for the other Robins because they don't have a hub city, but Nightwing already spent a long time in Bludhaven, so it already has a fanbase. Plus it's an original creation with a cool name that doesn't need to follow real life. They can edit and redefine it anyway and anytime they like. It's easier to evolve.

Oh of course the characters need to be fleshed out too. They all depend on the writers

----------


## Badou

> I still dont get the hate Bludhaven gets here though. It was a great setting under Dixon, with tons of interesting characters and history and it was different enough from Gotham to provide great contrast, while still being grimy and gross enough to have that "Gotham charm" to it. And the new version seems decent, with a nice blend of neon grit and questionable shadows, mobsters and fish-men. Plus there's enough of a foundation for Nightwing there for a writer to build on while still adding their own stuff.


What about Bludhaven resonates with Dick as a character? Outside Seeley trying to make it more of a casino/gambling city possibly noting about it highlights anything Dick as a character represents. It's just a city that Nightwing is in that at the end of the day is a Gotham-lite or Hell's Kitchen-lite setting which produces stories where Dick falls into a box of consistently being Batman-lite or Daredevil-lite. That will always be the biggest knock on the character that the setting reinforces. There is nothing there that would keep Dick anchored to it other than DC forcing it. He isn't from there, he didn't create any heroic identity there, none of his bigger love interests, friends or other heroes are there, and no teams or organizations are there. Despite being created over 20 years ago it is completely devoid of anything unique or interesting outside of Nightwing running around it. 

I just don't see any foundation to build on because nothing about it as a setting is attractive to creators and I don't really see that ever changing with the way it is. It became so useless as a setting that DC decided to nuke it for an event because the only use it had left to them was to be used as shock value. But I've bitched about Bludhaven so much now that maybe I'm just missing something. Something that makes it special and why people like it, but I just don't see it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What about Bludhaven resonates with Dick as a character? Outside Seeley trying to make it more of a casino/gambling city possibly noting about it highlights anything Dick as a character represents. It's just a city that Nightwing is in that at the end of the day is a Gotham-lite or Hell's Kitchen-lite setting which produces stories where Dick falls into a box of consistently being Batman-lite or Daredevil-lite. That will always be the biggest knock on the character that the setting reinforces. There is nothing there that would keep Dick anchored to it other than DC forcing it. He isn't from there, he didn't create any heroic identity there, none of his bigger love interests, friends or other heroes are there, and no teams or organizations are there. Despite being created over 20 years ago it is completely devoid of anything unique or interesting outside of Nightwing running around it. 
> 
> I just don't see any foundation to build on because nothing about it as a setting is attractive to creators and I don't really see that ever changing with the way it is. It became so useless as a setting that DC decided to nuke it for an event because the only use it had left to them was to be used as shock value. But I've bitched about Bludhaven so much now that maybe I'm just missing something. Something that makes it special and why people like it, but I just don't see it.


Ah. If the problem is foundation and relation, Nightwing's kinda all over the place though. His back story is in Gotham, his friends are in Titans, his villains and supporting cast were in Bludhaven, his sidekick is in Teen Titans, his love interests are in Titans and Gotham, his ancestor is underneath Gotham, his other supporting cast is in England, Chicago and wherever the heck Haley's Circus is now.

Maybe he should have a helicarrier as a mobile base so he can jump out aesthetically to any place he likes. 

....

*gasp* I want him to have a helicarrier. At least a plane. Why doesn't he have a plane?

Edit: Nevermind. He's a people person. He won't use a helicarrier as a base since he likes to be in the middle of people, in a city.

----------


## Vinsanity

Dick Grayson to London would work out so much since Diana isn't in London as much. If not then Seoul, Berlin and Sydney could use some heroes.

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## yash

> What about Bludhaven resonates with Dick as a character? Outside Seeley trying to make it more of a casino/gambling city possibly noting about it highlights anything Dick as a character represents. It's just a city that Nightwing is in that at the end of the day is a Gotham-lite or Hell's Kitchen-lite setting which produces stories where Dick falls into a box of consistently being Batman-lite or Daredevil-lite. That will always be the biggest knock on the character that the setting reinforces. There is nothing there that would keep Dick anchored to it other than DC forcing it. He isn't from there, he didn't create any heroic identity there, none of his bigger love interests, friends or other heroes are there, and no teams or organizations are there. Despite being created over 20 years ago it is completely devoid of anything unique or interesting outside of Nightwing running around it. 
> 
> I just don't see any foundation to build on because nothing about it as a setting is attractive to creators and I don't really see that ever changing with the way it is. It became so useless as a setting that DC decided to nuke it for an event because the only use it had left to them was to be used as shock value. But I've bitched about Bludhaven so much now that maybe I'm just missing something. Something that makes it special and why people like it, but I just don't see it.


 you are not missing anything, the people who love bludhaven are the same people who did not read grayson and when asked why they said "well... it has no nightwing yeah"

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## yash

Every now and then i get reminded why they wanted to off dick for good, they generally genuinely don't know what to do with him and most of it stems from the rules they impose on themselves and some of it stems from the fact that they want to push other characters that they feel is more marketable and more in line with the cohesive dcu that they want to present

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Every now and then i get reminded why they wanted to off dick for good, they generally genuinely don't know what to do with him and most of it stems from the rules they impose on themselves and some of it stems from the fact that they want to push other characters that they feel is more marketable and more in line with the cohesive dcu that they want to present


Considering his best stories coming out of Infinite Crisis was him as Batman and when returned to Nightwing he nearly skated by another death only to be revitalized by Grayson and now we are here with Nightwing back to being boring with Bludhaven adding nothing but Casinos and a Tree it is safe to assume Dick will stay in this rut unless they finally kill him off or give him a new identity that is not Batman. Maybe Dick Grayson # 1 will be Dick’s new exciting journey.

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## yash

> Considering his best stories coming out of Infinite Crisis was him as Batman and when returned to Nightwing he nearly skated by another death only to be revitalized by Grayson and now we are here with Nightwing back to being boring with Bludhaven adding nothing but Casinos and a Tree it is safe to assume Dick will stay in this rut unless they finally kill him off or give him a new identity that is not Batman. Maybe Dick Grayson # 1 will be Dick’s new exciting journey.


 yep, i have said it before, the only reason we get a NW book is because it sells, if it had piss poor sales like red hood or batgirl or cyborg or deathstroke then we would not get a NW book, right now they cannot justify not giving dick his own book but if he did poor in sales they won't give him another chance like they keep giving to other characters

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## SiegePerilous02

I chalk up the Bludhaven love as another thing from the Dixon era as "I guess you had to be there when it was coming out."
I only started following the regular DCU continuity shortly before or after Bludhaven got nuked. I had no attachment to it whatsoever. I went back and read some early Nightwing trades, and can't remember any of it besides liking the Superman guest appearance, disliking some of the attempts to downplay his history with the Titans ("I never meant to stay as long as I did," wtf?) thinking Blockbuster was a blatant Kingpin wannabe, and that Torque was just....terrible. 

Then again, I kind of hate everything from the Dixon era of Bat-comics except maybe Batgirl Year One. Doesn't help that he practically wrote everything, so everything seems so homogeneous. I can never quite put my finger on it, but IDK, the visuals and atmosphere seem so bland in comparison to the stuff I like (B:TAS, Burton, Bronze age, Morrison era and even the Snyder/King era, and probably also the kooky Adam West show), and Bludhaven is like the epitome of all that.

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## yohyoi

I honestly expected more discussion of Dick's _ass_ets in his appreciation thread. I appreciate them very much.

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## JasonTodd428

> I chalk up the Bludhaven love as another thing from the Dixon era as "I guess you had to be there when it was coming out."
> I only started following the regular DCU continuity shortly before or after Bludhaven got nuked. I had no attachment to it whatsoever. I went back and read some early Nightwing trades, and can't remember any of it besides liking the Superman guest appearance, disliking some of the attempts to downplay his history with the Titans ("I never meant to stay as long as I did," wtf?) thinking Blockbuster was a blatant Kingpin wannabe, and that Torque was just....terrible. 
> 
> Then again, I kind of hate everything from the Dixon era of Bat-comics except maybe Batgirl Year One. Doesn't help that he practically wrote everything, so everything seems so homogeneous. I can never quite put my finger on it, but IDK, the visuals and atmosphere seem so bland in comparison to the stuff I like (B:TAS, Burton, Bronze age, Morrison era and even the Snyder/King era, and probably also the kooky Adam West show), and Bludhaven is like the epitome of all that.


I'm with you there. I can't think of any story from that era of Nightwing that is particularly memorable to me. I had stopped reading comics before the Dixon era and didn't return to them until Morrison was already in the middle of his Batman run. I wasn't a fan of Morrison's run outside of his _Batman and Robin_, likely because I jumped in at the midpoint, so I went in search of older material I missed to read instead. Dixon really didn't impress me much and I agree that all his books seemed very homogeneous. I never cared about Bludhaven to be honest. It was too much like Gotham for me and to be honest I've never understood the need to tie Nightwing down to a city in his solo anyway. When he was Robin it made sense for him to be tied to Gotham and I suppose the local of Titans Tower (and all its derivatives) was a bit of the same though it was more of a HQ based in a city rather than the situation with Nightwing in Bludhaven.

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## yohyoi

It's funny how Dick has great social skills and is the most desirable man in comics, yet he can't keep his relationships from exploding. Like, dude, you are not Peter "Super Nerd" Parker, nor are you Bruce "Mr. Tragedy" Wayne. This part is supposed to be easier for you.

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## Restingvoice

That Earth team of Waller and Grayson, since the League will be going outer space, I'm guessing they will be the earth defense force. Nightwing is probably placed there to rein in Waller. It's World's Kindest vs World's Cruelest on how to defend the world and I'm excited. The only problem is page time. I fear that there won't be enough panels for the Grayson vs Waller shouting match I want, but there should be at least one.

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## SiegePerilous02

> I'm with you there. I can't think of any story from that era of Nightwing that is particularly memorable to me. I had stopped reading comics before the Dixon era and didn't return to them until Morrison was already in the middle of his Batman run. I wasn't a fan of Morrison's run outside of his _Batman and Robin_, likely because I jumped in at the midpoint, so I went in search of older material I missed to read instead. Dixon really didn't impress me much and I agree that all his books seemed very homogeneous. I never cared about Bludhaven to be honest. It was too much like Gotham for me and to be honest I've never understood the need to tie Nightwing down to a city in his solo anyway. When he was Robin it made sense for him to be tied to Gotham and I suppose the local of Titans Tower (and all its derivatives) was a bit of the same though it was more of a HQ based in a city rather than the situation with Nightwing in Bludhaven.


Yes. I also intensely dislike the portrayal of Batman for that period. I think I read the first chapter of Nightwing: Year One once, and I couldn't stomach if AT ALL. I know this is the era that made everyone super into the Bat-Family, but I confess I can't really stand this iteration of it. I prefer the dynamics we have now and what came earlier. Nostalgia for this period drives me nuts, especially when it played a part in costing us _Grayson_.

----------


## TheCape

> Yes. I also intensely dislike the portrayal of Batman for that period. I think I read the first chapter of Nightwing: Year One once, and I couldn't stomach if AT ALL. I know this is the era that made everyone super into the Bat-Family, but I confess I can't really stand this iteration of it. I prefer the dynamics we have now and what came earlier. Nostalgia for this period drives me nuts, especially when it played a part in costing us _Grayson_.


Technically speaking, the Nightwing: Year One was made after his run and era ended, althougth i admit that Dixon's Batman is not my favorite (Grant's version that around the same time was better done), althougth i didn't find him unlikable just a tad unreasonable, still there's no doubt that Bronze Age Batman was better.

----------


## Claude

> That Earth team of Waller and Grayson, since the League will be going outer space, I'm guessing they will be the earth defense force. Nightwing is probably placed there to rein in Waller. It's World's Kindest vs World's Cruelest on how to defend the world and I'm excited. The only problem is page time. I fear that there won't be enough panels for the Grayson vs Waller shouting match I want, but there should be at least one.


I'd missed this news about Grayson and Waller in "No Justice" - sounds a good opportunity for the character, and potentially a good Titans set up.

Hopefully they'll lean into his Superspy history for this kind of role.

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## JasonTodd428

> Yes. I also intensely dislike the portrayal of Batman for that period. I think I read the first chapter of Nightwing: Year One once, and I couldn't stomach if AT ALL. I know this is the era that made everyone super into the Bat-Family, but I confess I can't really stand this iteration of it. I prefer the dynamics we have now and what came earlier. Nostalgia for this period drives me nuts, especially when it played a part in costing us _Grayson_.


Me too and the nostalgia for this period is annoying the heck outta me too because it brought about the end of _Grayson_, which is the first time I was actually enjoying a book starring Dick Grayson since his time as Batman. I also get sick of the constant ten steps forward, ten back game they play with the character. Every time they do something that really progresses the character forward they just have to make it temporary and dump him back into the same hole he had just gotten out of.

----------


## Ascended

> I just don't see any foundation to build on because nothing about it as a setting is attractive to creators and I don't really see that ever changing with the way it is. It became so useless as a setting that DC decided to nuke it for an event because the only use it had left to them was to be used as shock value. But I've bitched about Bludhaven so much now that maybe I'm just missing something. Something that makes it special and why people like it, but I just don't see it.


As someone else said, maybe it was just a "you had to be there" thing?

I mean, this was Dick's first ongoing solo title. It was a big deal. Some of us had been waiting a long time to see it. And Dick was finally getting a setting of his own. This was going to have a big impact no matter what. And this was the place Dick was supposed to start to build a life of his own. Not Batman's. Not the Titans' That was enough to make it, at least on some level, special.

And Dixon did establish right out of the gate that Bludhaven was different from Gotham. The crime in Bludhaven trickled down from the top, starting with the mayor and chief of police, instead of bubbling up from the gutter like Gotham. That impacted Nightwing's dealings with the cops. It had an interesting history. Having grown up in New England, I especially appreciated the "old whaling town fallen on raw times" thing. Blockbuster and the politicians made for a different brand of bad guy than the psychopaths of Gotham. The skyline had more tall, skinny smoke stacks and train rails than Gotham, and fewer gargoyles and sculptures. Gotham looked like a corrupted but proud city built by an evil rich man who played morose tunes on the organ in his castle. Bludhaven looked like it had been built by poor, drunken Irish architects during Industrialization. Sure, it was still crime-ridden and dirty. It had that in common with Gotham. And it was drawn by a big Bat artist. Written by a big Bat writer. There was most definitely overlap. But these two cities were "alike" the same way Chicago and New York are alike. 

I think people look at the comic, which had a powerless vigilante from the Batcave running around a dirty little city at night fighting street-level crime, and just cry "derivative!" It wasn't Bludhaven. It was editors trying to fold Nightwing back into the Gotham office and style, and trying to downplay the Titans history. They could have put Nightwing in Metropolis and I promise you the setting would've felt largely the same as what we actually got. As for DC nuking it, let's not forget that Didio wanted to kill Nightwing during that time. Bludhaven being Chemo'd has less to do with the potential of the setting and more to do with Didio's personal preferences clouding his business sense. 

I dunno. The city worked for me. I know it worked for a lot of other people. I see nothing wrong with it on a conceptual level. But that's just me. If the city isn't for you, the city isn't for you. If it were up to me Nightwing would be a global hero so you wouldn't see Bludhaven that much anyway.




> you are not missing anything, the people who love bludhaven are the same people who did not read grayson and when asked why they said "well... it has no nightwing yeah"


Not even a tiny bit accurate, as I didn't miss a single issue or appearance of Grayson. 

Are you really playing the "not a real fan" card? Because that's what it feels like.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> AAnd Dixon did establish right out of the gate that Bludhaven was different from Gotham. *The crime in Bludhaven trickled down from the top, starting with the mayor and chief of police, instead of bubbling up from the gutter like Gotham. That impacted Nightwing's dealings with the cops.* It had an interesting history. Having grown up in New England, I especially appreciated the "old whaling town fallen on raw times" thing. Blockbuster and the politicians made for a different brand of bad guy than the psychopaths of Gotham. The skyline had more tall, skinny smoke stacks and train rails than Gotham, and fewer gargoyles and sculptures. Gotham looked like a corrupted but proud city built by an evil rich man who played morose tunes on the organ in his castle. Bludhaven looked like it had been built by poor, drunken Irish architects during Industrialization. Sure, it was still crime-ridden and dirty. It had that in common with Gotham. And it was drawn by a big Bat artist. Written by a big Bat writer. There was most definitely overlap. But these two cities were "alike" the same way Chicago and New York are alike.


But isn't that how Gotham worked as well, at least before the age of the Joker and the other supervillains? Bruce learned in Year One that Gotham's problems came from crime bosses like Falcone who had city officials and many cops in their pocket, not the people on the streets.

----------


## Badou

> As someone else said, maybe it was just a "you had to be there" thing?
> 
> I mean, this was Dick's first ongoing solo title. It was a big deal. Some of us had been waiting a long time to see it. And Dick was finally getting a setting of his own. This was going to have a big impact no matter what. And this was the place Dick was supposed to start to build a life of his own. Not Batman's. Not the Titans' That was enough to make it, at least on some level, special.
> 
> And Dixon did establish right out of the gate that Bludhaven was different from Gotham. The crime in Bludhaven trickled down from the top, starting with the mayor and chief of police, instead of bubbling up from the gutter like Gotham. That impacted Nightwing's dealings with the cops. It had an interesting history. Having grown up in New England, I especially appreciated the "old whaling town fallen on raw times" thing. Blockbuster and the politicians made for a different brand of bad guy than the psychopaths of Gotham. The skyline had more tall, skinny smoke stacks and train rails than Gotham, and fewer gargoyles and sculptures. Gotham looked like a corrupted but proud city built by an evil rich man who played morose tunes on the organ in his castle. Bludhaven looked like it had been built by poor, drunken Irish architects during Industrialization. Sure, it was still crime-ridden and dirty. It had that in common with Gotham. And it was drawn by a big Bat artist. Written by a big Bat writer. There was most definitely overlap. But these two cities were "alike" the same way Chicago and New York are alike. 
> 
> I think people look at the comic, which had a powerless vigilante from the Batcave running around a dirty little city at night fighting street-level crime, and just cry "derivative!" It wasn't Bludhaven. It was editors trying to fold Nightwing back into the Gotham office and style, and trying to downplay the Titans history. They could have put Nightwing in Metropolis and I promise you the setting would've felt largely the same as what we actually got. As for DC nuking it, let's not forget that Didio wanted to kill Nightwing during that time. Bludhaven being Chemo'd has less to do with the potential of the setting and more to do with Didio's personal preferences clouding his business sense. 
> 
> I dunno. The city worked for me. I know it worked for a lot of other people. I see nothing wrong with it on a conceptual level. But that's just me. If the city isn't for you, the city isn't for you. If it were up to me Nightwing would be a global hero so you wouldn't see Bludhaven that much anyway.


I was there, and I'm thankful that the Dixon Bludhaven era happened as it helped Dick escape the awfulness that was the Titans franchise at that time. It gave him the opportunity to establish himself as a solo character, and I do respect it for that, but Bludhaven itself never became something worthwhile. It's just a stage where Dick can run around on his own, but it doesn't add anything unique or special to the concept of Dick as a solo hero anymore. I understand that many feel differently and it is something they enjoy and continue to want to see more of, but I just don't think it is a setting that can attract creators or produce unique stories. 

I feel like it holds him back more than it helps him now with the way it is. Nothing about the city reflects Dick as a character. All it has going for it is nostalgia from that Dixon era, but that era ranges from forgettable to okay at best. The "Gotham but worse" aspect that Dixon went for obviously wasn't enough to keep it a viable setting, and Blockbuster being its version of Kingpin to Dick's Daredevil feels so copy/pasted from what Daredevil, Batman or Spider-man have done and done better. 

It is similar to the Titans team we've discussed to death too. The current Titans team is together because they were together when they were younger. It was their first team. So they continue to be put together because of that, but that team has failed to find a direction after they grew up. Similar to how I feel that Bludhaven has failed to find a direction for Dick as a hero once the shine of it being Dick's "first city" worn off.

----------


## Ascended

> But isn't that how Gotham worked as well, at least before the age of the Joker and the other supervillains? Bruce learned in Year One that Gotham's problems came from crime bosses like Falcone who had city officials and many cops in their pocket, not the people on the streets.


I think so, yeah. But that was in the backstory and history. In the pages of the stories being told in the present? There was a lot of Two-Face, Joker, and the other crazies. I think Black Mask was maybe starting to become a player by then (maybe, its been a while), but if so he was still the exception, not the rule.

I mean, Bludhaven had a few crazies too. There was overlap. But Bludhaven was mostly mobsters and gangs, and Gotham was mostly psychos and Arkham inmates. Or at least that's how I remember it, but we're talking what, twenty years or something?

----------


## Ascended

> I was there, and I'm thankful that the Dixon Bludhaven era happened as it helped Dick escape the awfulness that was the Titans franchise at that time. It gave him the opportunity to establish himself as a solo character, and I do respect it for that, but Bludhaven itself never became something worthwhile. It's just a stage where Dick can run around on his own, but it doesn't add anything unique or special to the concept of Dick as a solo hero anymore. I understand that many feel differently and it is something they enjoy and continue to want to see more of, but I just don't think it is a setting that can attract creators or produce unique stories.


Outside of Gotham, and maybe Metropolis, does any setting based in the real world (ie., no alien planets, time periods, or strange dimensions) really hold a ton of appeal to creators? Hell's Kitchen perhaps? Opal city? Do any writers ever say "Well, I was going to turn down the project until I heard it was set in Central City, and even though I couldn't use the Flash or any of those characters I just couldn't let the opportunity pass!" ?




> It is similar to the Titans team we've discussed to death too. The current Titans team is together because they were together when they were younger. It was their first team. So they continue to be put together because of that, but that team has failed to find a direction after they grew up. Similar to how I feel that Bludhaven has failed to find a direction for Dick as a hero once the shine of it being Dick's "first city" worn off.


You may very well have a point here. I know I found it surprising and odd when they announced he was going back to the city. I mean, he lived there for ten-ish years before it was nuked. Then spent another decade-ish living in other places.....I liked the place but I didn't expect it to return at all and it definitely gave off a "for the sake of nostalgia and not knowing what else to do" vibe.

----------


## Badou

> Outside of Gotham, and maybe Metropolis, does any setting based in the real world (ie., no alien planets, time periods, or strange dimensions) really hold a ton of appeal to creators? Hell's Kitchen perhaps? Opal city? Do any writers ever say "Well, I was going to turn down the project until I heard it was set in Central City, and even though I couldn't use the Flash or any of those characters I just couldn't let the opportunity pass!" ?


Probably not, but places like Central City or Hell's Kitchen are where Flash or Daredevil created their heroic identities. It's where they became heroes and grew up. So there is this deeply rooted connection to the character like how a Gotham is to a Batman, although probably not as extreme. Those characters were created and designed from those settings. Dick and Nightwing weren't created in Bludhaven so I feel you don't have that kind of connection with him there, but they want to try and say it is the same thing where it is Dick's "home" and some places that defines his character.

----------


## oasis1313

> That Earth team of Waller and Grayson, since the League will be going outer space, I'm guessing they will be the earth defense force. Nightwing is probably placed there to rein in Waller. It's World's Kindest vs World's Cruelest on how to defend the world and I'm excited. The only problem is page time. I fear that there won't be enough panels for the Grayson vs Waller shouting match I want, but there should be at least one.


Waller will probably be bossing Nightwing around like a little henpecked husband.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Waller will probably be bossing Nightwing around like a little henpecked husband.


she cant touch him tho, she knows better then to mess with batman

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm banking on Snyder's consistent portrayal of Dick Grayson being mature and able to stand up to Batman. 
He may get hurt, but he'll drop some truth bombs that the other side can't ignore.

----------


## Godlike13

Something is better than nothing I guess, but this consolation stuff gets frustrating.

----------


## Badou

Well given Snyder's track record with Dick so far in events Waller will probably slap Dick in the face, lol. Bruce did it in Court of Owls and Damian did it in Metal. 

I think Dick getting punched by Damain was all Dick did in the main book? Snyder never really explained where Dick and his group went after the bar got invaded. Dick's whole plot line in Metal going back to the Dr Hurt stuff never really went anywhere, but it wasn't surprising since it wasn't Snyder that wrote that. Snyder was focusing on Batman, JL, and Hawkman mostly. The Dr Hurt arc and the Resistance tie in were at least fun even if they didn't lead to anything.

----------


## Ascended

> Probably not, but places like Central City or Hell's Kitchen are where Flash or Daredevil created their heroic identities. It's where they became heroes and grew up. So there is this deeply rooted connection to the character like how a Gotham is to a Batman, although probably not as extreme. Those characters were created and designed from those settings. Dick and Nightwing weren't created in Bludhaven so I feel you don't have that kind of connection with him there, but they want to try and say it is the same thing where it is Dick's "home" and some places that defines his character.


Well, its not the place where Dick began his heroic journey, but it is the place where he stepped out on his own, for really the first time. That might not have the same impact, but it's as good as Dick can get unless they put him back in Haley's Circus. But that didn't seem terribly popular so I'd question if that would generate any real gains for the franchise. I'd also question whether the circus is a "better" home thematically. It's where he spent his early childhood, but his life since the age of 12 or whatever has been Gotham and beyond.

Personally, I just think Bludhaven needs development and time to grow. Its not like Gotham and Metropolis became these huge, super-important aspects of the character's stories from page one. They were just the cities the stories took place in and had no real relevance of their own. That came with time. If DC could decide what direction to point Nightwing in, and then gave themselves some time for that direction to gel, Bludhaven could become a perfectly fine setting for Dick (or whatever setting they choose).

----------


## yohyoi

Who else is excited for the Nightwing vs. Crimson Kabuki showdown this Wednesday? I am! Dick in Japan! Dick in Japan! Dick in Japan!

----------


## oasis1313

> she cant touch him tho, she knows better then to mess with batman


Why would Bruce object to someone else slapping Dick around.  He (Bruce) can't be everywhere and it'd do him good to know that someone else is wrecking Dick's dentalwork.

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay, I just remember.
I know people here are annoyed that Azrael is in Justice League Odyssey instead of Dick, that it came out of nowhere, but I wasn't, really, because while Azrael feels out of nowhere, he also always wears a full suit armor and carries a flaming sword. So I figure he will be useful when fighting a Martian. 
I also don't mind since Azrael's power and skill is pretty up there, but he doesn't get much screen time.
What I realized though, is where are they going and who is with them. 

They are going to uncharted space... with Darkseid. 

There is no way, Batman is letting Dick or any of his Robins go with Darkseid. That is just not happening. It's been established many times that Batman doesn't really mind if anyone else do the dangerous stuffs, he even requited Luke Fox behind his dad's back, but if it's one of his kids, he's more overprotective.

I actually question his decision to include Damian in his No Justice team more, but his team is also the tamest one. The villain representation in that team is Harley, who is not really villainous anymore.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Okay, I just remember.
> I know people here are annoyed that Azrael is in Justice League Odyssey instead of Dick, that it came out of nowhere, but I wasn't, really, because while Azrael feels out of nowhere, he also always wears a full suit armor and carries a flaming sword. So I figure he will be useful when fighting a Martian. 
> I also don't mind since Azrael's power and skill is pretty up there, but he doesn't get much screen time.
> What I realized though, is where are they going and who is with them. 
> 
> They are going to uncharted space... with Darkseid. 
> 
> There is no way, Batman is letting Dick or any of his Robins go with Darkseid. That is just not happening. It's been established many times that Batman doesn't really mind if anyone else do the dangerous stuffs, he even requited Luke Fox behind his dad's back, but if it's one of his kids, he's more overprotective.
> 
> I actually question his decision to include Damian in his No Justice team more, but his team is also the tamest one. The villain representation in that team is Harley, who is not really villainous anymore.


Pfff this is a very depressing post, but a good exemple how much damage has been done to Dick's character. He doesn't need Batman's permission for anything or he didn't before Abnett. Nightwing has been into uncharted space many times, so has Jason and Tim I think, none of them needded Bruce's authorization I don't think they evere bother to tell him.

And a lack of full suit? oh c'mon, really?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Azrael is on the Team for the same reason killer frost or Lobo are on the Justice League. JL looks at things from a power perspective and Batman gets to inhabit a special little corner where is super powerful in a sense but then cast as a human, IMO Batman is like Flash/GL when it comes to being human. Nightwing in events has either been off with the lesser teams, a prop for Batman, or nearly avoiding death. The last time Dick Grayson has actually been involved in a epic event was the New Cronus/Donna Troy Saga. The one time he could have led an event back in 91 would have led to his first solo series 5 Years before Bludhaven and a marriage to Starfire but it was scrapped and eventually the Titans fizzled out. Dick will be marginal at best in No Justice and will likely get punched by someone to satisfy a internet meme. Titans will very likely continue the voice Abnett has given him and Nightwing is stuck in Bludhaven which will under go another  revamp soon. Dick has never taken an important role in a Event. It is usually Justice League + New Hero or Someone less Known getting a push. Dick will NEVER get a “push” because they will always go for Batman just like Court Of Owls was teased for Dick but then re-written for Bruce because Snyder felt it would be better with him.

----------


## Assam

> Azrael is on the Team for the same reason killer frost or Lobo are on the Justice League..


Actually, according to Williamson, he's on the team because they were sitting around talking about who to include on the team and he basically went, 'I like Azrael. How about Azrael?' and they developed the idea from there.

----------


## oasis1313

> Actually, according to Williamson, he's on the team because they were sitting around talking about who to include on the team and he basically went, 'I like Azrael. How about Azrael?' and they developed the idea from there.


And they were probably sitting around in a bar, too.

----------


## Badou

I imagine they were looking at what Batman characters were up for grabs, since the book probably required a Batman character, and they went with Azrael. 

I'm honestly fine with Dick not being in Justice League Odyssey. It could have been interesting just to see Dick in a new setting and in space for a bit, plus it would have saved him from the dreadful Titans book, but I don't know if I really wanted to see him stuck with Starfire on a team and the headache that would create. I'm more upset that he is still stuck on Titans with Abnett and he will be irrelevant in No Justice like the other events they throw him in. Maybe if they gave the "Earth Team" (they don't even have an event name like the JL teams) their own single issue book it would have been better, but it isn't a JL team so it isn't important. Just a catchall for characters they didn't want on the JL teams.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pfff this is a very depressing post, but a good exemple how much damage has been done to Dick's character. He doesn't need Batman's permission for anything or he didn't before Abnett. Nightwing has been into uncharted space many times, so has Jason and Tim I think, none of them needded Bruce's authorization I don't think they evere bother to tell him.
> 
> And a lack of full suit? oh c'mon, really?


I don't get what you're getting at. Yes, full suit. If I take one look at the cover and see the guy wearing full suit carrying flaming sword, he will look stronger and more fitting for dangerous space adventure than the guy wearing tights carrying two sticks. 

Also, Nightwing's character and experience have nothing to do with being in Justice League or not because he has no say on who gets on the team. That's on the League members, and Batman's one of them. 

Anyway, it doesn't matter because DC and the League already decided what they want with Nightwing. I'm just guessing how they will explain it in story because I remember how overprotective Batman can be.

----------


## Godlike13

He's saying that the idea that Dick can't go into space with Darkseid because daddy Bat won't let him is sad, and that a full suit shouldn't really be much of an issue. They could just as easily come up with a space worthy looking Nightwing suit or outfit.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing isn't on JL: Oddessy because then it would be a space Titans team, and the Titans are flunkies. 

But yet I am more interested in a Titans series by Abnett than by the future of Nightwing's ongoing. I am waiting on King to do something with Dick in Batman. There seems to be something in the works. Nothing big, but anything is more than we have now.

----------


## ross61

Can’t wait for Percy and Mooneyham’s run

----------


## Godlike13

Im hesitant. I feel like Dick is just gonna get fed to the new villain.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, I dunno about Percy either. I've been trade waiting his Arrow, and I find it entertaining but Moore he's not, you know? He's pretty heavy handed and the dialogue isn't always the sharpest, but it's a fun ride nonetheless and the heavy handedness of it sort of fits Ollie in a slightly meta way. And the art's been a big part of my enjoyment. I think the art team really fits the book. 

If I get a Nightwing I can enjoy as much as I enjoy Arrow, I'll be satisfied. But I'm not sure if Percy's style will translate. But really, I got no reason to think it won't, all I got is grumpy old fan cynicism. So we'll see.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

By Stephen Byrne:

IMG_20180404_010843.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> By Stephen Byrne:
> 
> IMG_20180404_010843.jpg


No Tim Dreck, thank goodness--I appreciate this pic.  But Catwoman still looks better in her purple slit skirt.

----------


## Alycat

It bothers me more and more that people put in Babs and Kate over Jason at this point. He's been in enough crappy crossovers to be in family pictures now.

----------


## yohyoi

The new Nightwing issue was cool. I felt it was perfect after a long arc. Feel good issues are some of my favorites. Worth the money.

----------


## yohyoi

> Can’t wait for Percy and Mooneyham’s run


I'm with you. Enjoyed Seeley and Humphries, but I think Percy can be more next level than them. I'm happy there are a lot of DC writers who love writing Nightwing. Makes the character feel timeless.

----------


## Assam

> It bothers me more and more that people put in Babs and Kate over Jason at this point. He's been in enough crappy crossovers to be in family pictures now.


At least Jason and Tim appear in more than Cass and Steph (f**k the Nu52). To a point its semantics as ALL of these characters get more fanart than the vast majority of other DC characters (or at least comic versions), but that doesn't make exclusion of one's favorite from BatFam art any less irritating.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It bothers me more and more that people put in Babs and Kate over Jason at this point. He's been in enough crappy crossovers to be in family pictures now.


I think Babs being put in over Jason is hardly surprising considering her longer history of being around and being promoted. Kate and Jason are a little more on equal ground though, and he should probably be in there if she and Damian are there.

Still a sweet picture though.

----------


## Ascended

I'd rather see Jason completely estranged from the Cave, personally.

I liked him better as an anti-villain.

----------


## Aioros22

Anti-villain or anti-hero he`s the sort of trope where he doesn`t need to be represented all the time with the kids  :Wink:  

It wholly fits whatever the case. Sometimes he`s in, othertimes he`s doing his own thang.

----------


## Pohzee

https://www.cbr.com/deathstroke-30/

It's really not that hard Bat-Editors. King couldn't get it for his golden age flashbacks, but Priest gets it for Deathstroke?

I guess that could be Jason, but that's not his New 52 suit either.

----------


## Badou

I feel like it is Jason, but it is nice to see more of a classic costume somewhere. I'm guessing that because Deathstroke has different editors they were able to do it.

----------


## Drako

King said it's Dick. Courtesy of reddit:



https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...obins_costume/

----------


## L.H.

It's Dick, no doubt. I was sure to see him in this story arc. Priest really likes to bring him in, every time he can. Still hoping to see Priest write Nightwing, I'm sure it will be great.

----------


## yohyoi

It would be great if the Owls come back. I feel there is a lot of unexplored grounds in that part of Dick's history. Deathstroke vs Nightwing would be nice too. But like many good things that didn't last.

----------


## Smilingblade

Hey guys, first time poster long time fan. Does anyone know if this golden masked version of Dick (from the end of the Grayson comic) is supposed to represent Dick if he became a Talon?

----------


## oasis1313

> It's Dick, no doubt. I was sure to see him in this story arc. Priest really likes to bring him in, every time he can. Still hoping to see Priest write Nightwing, I'm sure it will be great.


Dick had the two little curls on either side of his forehead for many decades.  Jason had the curls at the first, then he later lost them, thank goodness.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hey guys, first time poster long time fan. Does anyone know if this golden masked version of Dick (from the end of the Grayson comic) is supposed to represent Dick if he became a Talon?


Yeeeeeeeeeeeees

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hey guys, first time poster long time fan. Does anyone know if this golden masked version of Dick (from the end of the Grayson comic) is supposed to represent Dick if he became a Talon?


such a waste

his alt looks have been on point

----------


## Ascended

So guys, quick question.

We've talked in the past about what Nightwing needs to be a solid A-list property, and what being "A-list" actually entails.

One of the things on my list is that the hero needs a sidekick, legacy, lesser partner, whatever. It seems every A-lister, or A-list hopeful, has one. Captain America has Falcon, Captain Marvel has Ms. Marvel, Superman has Supergirl, Batman of course has Robin, etc. 

So who would make a good "sidekick" for Dick? A few posters in the "Dick Grayson's soul mate" thread have talked about Spoiler, and I suppose she works. But for me, the first person to come to mind is Cass Cain. That girl needs some socialization and human interaction, and she'll never get that from Bruce. I mean, in any number of stories he's tried to help her build a whole, real life for herself....but how can Bruce do that when he himself wouldn't recognize "normal" if it kicked him in the bats? Cass might be a better fighter than Nightwing (better than Batman for that matter) but that's really about all she's got going for her. I think she would benefit greatly from Dick taking her under his wing.

At the same time, Duke is walking the line between superhuman and street level vigilante, and Nightwing's background with the Titans makes him better suited to help Duke than anyone else from the Cave.

I dunno, I haven't given this much thought yet. Someone new could always work, and it'd likely be the best option since you could mold that character to fit around Nightwing, but there's so many extra heroes floating around Gotham, it'd seem a shame not to adopt one if you could.

----------


## Alycat

Ehhh in more recent years all those characters you named have come into their own and are looked at as more than legacies/sidekicks. Dick works good with someone to bounce off of though and its a neat idea, but usually with someone who is close to an equal like partner ( Tiger, Helena, Midnighter, Wally, roy, etc.) I think Damian is a fun exception because of how close they are.

A)I don't think he's in a position to help Cass in the areas she needs help in. Cass story should be tied to Bruce and the other girls like Babs or Steph hopefully.

B) DC wants Duke close to A-list Batman. No one would care if he was hanging around Nightwing

----------


## Moonwix

> So guys, quick question.
> 
> We've talked in the past about what Nightwing needs to be a solid A-list property, and what being "A-list" actually entails.
> 
> One of the things on my list is that the hero needs a sidekick, legacy, lesser partner, whatever. It seems every A-lister, or A-list hopeful, has one. Captain America has Falcon, Captain Marvel has Ms. Marvel, Superman has Supergirl, Batman of course has Robin, etc. 
> 
> So who would make a good "sidekick" for Dick? A few posters in the "Dick Grayson's soul mate" thread have talked about Spoiler, and I suppose she works. But for me, the first person to come to mind is Cass Cain. That girl needs some socialization and human interaction, and she'll never get that from Bruce. I mean, in any number of stories he's tried to help her build a whole, real life for herself....but how can Bruce do that when he himself wouldn't recognize "normal" if it kicked him in the bats? Cass might be a better fighter than Nightwing (better than Batman for that matter) but that's really about all she's got going for her. I think she would benefit greatly from Dick taking her under his wing.
> 
> At the same time, Duke is walking the line between superhuman and street level vigilante, and Nightwing's background with the Titans makes him better suited to help Duke than anyone else from the Cave.
> ...


It takes a lot more than that to be an A list property. Nightwing would need a movie and One that is very successful at the box office. And to be deem anywhere at the level as batman, his movie would have to score really high at the box office like last summer's wonder woman.

----------


## Badou

Well things like movies and other media are outside the power of the comics. What he needs in the comics to help get him to A-List in its medium is just strong critically acclaimed runs. Like how people talk about Priest' current run on Deathstroke, Fraction's run on Hawkeye, or Waid's run on Daredevil. A run where people speak of it as being something special and different. The closest Dick ever got to that was the Grayson series, but even that didn't quite break through to that level, but the problem is that these kind of runs are rare and usually happen when someone does something different or unexpected. 

Once you get a run like that then it is something to build on. Maybe you can attract bigger name creators to his books, or maybe other creators will become interested in using the character elsewhere. It all sort of builds on itself. Maybe the interest level in using him increases and he actually gets to do something in bigger events instead of being useless, getting used as a bunching bag, or being ignored. 


As for the whole sidekick thing I'm not interested at all in it, especially if it is Cass. I can already see the complaints if her character isn't shown as being the greatest martial artist ever. The occasional Damian story is fine here and there, but I feel like a lot of writers now don't really get the Dick and Damian relationship right. It's written very generic as "big brother and little brother", but I know it will never go back to being what it was in Batman and Robin under Morrison. That being said I still enjoy their occasional team up, but a full time sidekick I think would get aggravating.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick will become A List when his own title can headline its own event that requires his leadership, I am not talking about a long arc or a new enemy but an organization that’s not a hand me Down that doesn’t immediately require a crossover and pushes Nightwing to make serious life choices instead of those that make a Batman on a Budget or returns him to a shifty status quo. I wish someone would REALLY Morrison Dick Grayson by including things he accomplished since 1,940 in a streamed Timeline instead of a small little flash that focuses on his relationship to Batman. There are stories from the Golden Age where he is related to a non-meta Atlanteans, discovered Islands etc. when Nightwing can do epic things in his own title like Grayson/Batman & Robin. As long as his title is Judged by how he is Below Batman then he will always be stuck on repeat

----------


## Moonwix

> Well things like movies and other media are outside the power of the comics. What he needs in the comics to help get him to A-List in its medium is just strong critically acclaimed runs. Like how people talk about Priest' current run on Deathstroke, Fraction's run on Hawkeye, or Waid's run on Daredevil. A run where people speak of it as being something special and different. The closest Dick ever got to that was the Grayson series, but even that didn't quite break through to that level, but the problem is that these kind of runs are rare and usually happen when someone does something different or unexpected. 
> 
> Once you get a run like that then it is something to build on. Maybe you can attract bigger name creators to his books, or maybe other creators will become interested in using the character elsewhere. It all sort of builds on itself. Maybe the interest level in using him increases and he actually gets to do something in bigger events instead of being useless, getting used as a bunching bag, or being ignored. 
> 
> 
> As for the whole sidekick thing I'm not interested at all in it, especially if it is Cass. I can already see the complaints if her character isn't shown as being the greatest martial artist ever. The occasional Damian story is fine here and there, but I feel like a lot of writers now don't really get the Dick and Damian relationship right. It's written very generic as "big brother and little brother", but I know it will never go back to being what it was in Batman and Robin under Morrison. That being said I still enjoy their occasional team up, but a full time sidekick I think would get aggravating.


They are connected. WB is the umbrella company. If a character is successful  in a movie, DC would start caring about said character In the comic world. This is why the batman franchise had DC's undivided attention for the last 10 years. Harley Quinn is another example she is just everywhere. Priest getting praises still doesn't make deathstroke an A lister.

----------


## Ascended

> It takes a lot more than that to be an A list property. Nightwing would need a movie and One that is very successful at the box office. And to be deem anywhere at the level as batman, his movie would have to score really high at the box office like last summer's wonder woman.


Of course it takes more than just having a legacy to be A-list. That's not the point of the question. 

Now, I'm not necessarily talking a full-time, in-every-issue-and-story sidekick. But it seems that every A-list hero has at least one lesser partner, a hero who put on a mask because they were inspired by the A-lister.

It *can* be a full time sidekick thing, ala Robin. It can also be a more "part time junior partner" thing where the legacy doesn't show up all the time, ala Falcon and Captain America, or it can be a "hands-off inspiration" thing too, ala Supergirl and Superman. It can be lots of things, but the "junior hero" needs to be able to point directly at Nightwing and say "I'm a hero because of him." At least some occasional training or interaction is necessary, but it doesn't have to be a "all the time" thing.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing is about to have a handful of little trainees in Titans. And while I'm iffy on that, it is a more interesting concept than bagging him with Bruce's less popular sidekicks. Pilfering a supporting cast from the character you are trying to establish independence from is not the path to A-List. (Though Dick never will be.)

----------


## Pohzee

https://twitter.com/benjamin_percy/s...292450304?s=21

The first art from Percy and Mooneyham's upcoming arc. It reminds me a bit of Klas Jansom. Here's to hoping that they color it more appropriately.

----------


## Pohzee

Triple post, yup sorry.

Reading through the C2E2 DCU Panel, and I thought there were some interesting Dick tidbits.




> Percy: I'll be chaneling some d-list weirdos in NIGHTWING. Wait for Flamingo to show up...


More appropriation of the DickBats rogues. I like it.

We never really heard much about King's original pitch for _Grayson_ (Seeley's pitch was used) but he jokingly offered some insight to what it might've looked like (a staring out the window kind of book as he puts it)



> Tom King relates how he wrote a Grayson comic that was "literally Dick Grayson meets the Holocaust", and when he showed it to then-co-writer Tim Seeley he asked "are you ok?" And helped me ultimately decide not to do it.


Percy also discussed the premise for his upcoming arc, which oddly enough sounds like the original reason Dick joined Spyral.



> Percy: You've heard of identity theft - we're dealing with "secret" identity theft. Dick is the perfect person to take on this challenge, but also the person who is the 'vault' to this kind of data on other heroes.

----------


## Godlike13

> So guys, quick question.
> 
> We've talked in the past about what Nightwing needs to be a solid A-list property, and what being "A-list" actually entails.
> 
> One of the things on my list is that the hero needs a sidekick, legacy, lesser partner, whatever. It seems every A-lister, or A-list hopeful, has one. Captain America has Falcon, Captain Marvel has Ms. Marvel, Superman has Supergirl, Batman of course has Robin, etc. 
> 
> So who would make a good "sidekick" for Dick? A few posters in the "Dick Grayson's soul mate" thread have talked about Spoiler, and I suppose she works. But for me, the first person to come to mind is Cass Cain. That girl needs some socialization and human interaction, and she'll never get that from Bruce. I mean, in any number of stories he's tried to help her build a whole, real life for herself....but how can Bruce do that when he himself wouldn't recognize "normal" if it kicked him in the bats? Cass might be a better fighter than Nightwing (better than Batman for that matter) but that's really about all she's got going for her. I think she would benefit greatly from Dick taking her under his wing.
> 
> At the same time, Duke is walking the line between superhuman and street level vigilante, and Nightwing's background with the Titans makes him better suited to help Duke than anyone else from the Cave.
> ...


Rose or Steph. Cass isn’t very complimentary to other characters and her personality is too subtle IMO, so I don’t think she’d work very well in that role.

----------


## Badou

> https://twitter.com/benjamin_percy/s...292450304?s=21
> 
> The first art from Percy and Mooneyham's upcoming arc. It reminds me a bit of Klas Jansom. Here's to hoping that they color it more appropriately.


The look does remind me a lot of Daredevil. Very gritty and street focused like you'd see from some of his books. Art is a bit better than I was thinking it would be. 

Also I'm all for more weird villains and unexpected things. If I'm forced to read Bludhaven then just make it super weird at least.

----------


## RedQueen

In regards to the sidekick, definitely Rose, she's got Deathstroke as a father out of all things and is a character who can stand on her two feet. For a good double act I believe you characters who can compliment and contrast each other. I feel like Stephanie would just be Nightwing jr and wouldn't add much for a dynamic with Dick's character.

In regards to the art, looks good, and the graffiti that says "butt-haven" is great lol.

----------


## Aahz

Beeing an A-Lister would imo mean that his sidekicks are really his and not pre existing characters from other franchises like Cass, Steph, Rose or Helena.

----------


## Badou

Also I sort of feel like this art would look better in black and white as it is. Depending on how it is colored it could really take away from a lot of the detail and lines. Guess we will find out.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Also I sort of feel like this art would look better in black and white as it is. Depending on how it is colored it could really take away from a lot of the detail and lines. Guess we will find out.


I'm imagining Batman Prey coloring.  

e6179ece39ef19a379abac7eb52a848d._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

> Beeing an A-Lister would imo mean that his sidekicks are really his and not pre existing characters from other franchises like Cass, Steph, Rose or Helena.


New characters don't work for nightwing, they'll just go to limbo when the next creative team comes on.

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/benjamin_percy/s...292450304?s=21
> 
> The first art from Percy and Mooneyham's upcoming arc. It reminds me a bit of Klas Jansom. Here's to hoping that they color it more appropriately.


Oooh, interesting style, slightly grungy I like it.
Also, is that graffiti meant to be self deprecating, or an indication that Bludhaven became butt haven after Dick and his qualities moved in to the place.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Percy saying he will use Flamingo is pretty sweet. That's exactly the mentality I want to see. Seeley had the right idea in bringing in Pyg and Dr. Hurt, villains from the Dick!Bats era. Not to mention the Fist of Cain were very similar to the 99 Fiends. I hope this is an attitude that spreads among editorial, it's exactly the villains Nightwing needs to fight. 

Bring on the Club of Villains too. Nobody is doing anything with King Kraken, Pierrot Lunaire, Swagman and Le Bossu and they are woefully underdeveloped.

----------


## Gray Lensman

For some reason I think that would be a good way to revive the Flamebird identity - as Nightwing's sidekick in training.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For some reason I think that would be a good way to revive the Flamebird identity - as Nightwing's sidekick in training.


...and s/he should be a Kryptonian! Since the legend came from Krypton. Make it a Superman/Batman book!

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I Really Like the Art it is sort of like Batman Year One / New York But attuned to create an identity for Bludhaven with this more weird technological villain i didn't read all of percy Green Arrow Run but I know he did do very intriguing things with Oliver and kept a consistent cast while also keeping it connected to the DCU which I hope gives a more classic solid showing to Dick who looks honestly in Black Mirror Form from his looks so I really hope Percy can deliver and truly define Bludhaven since it will also be featured in the Titans Digital Series so it will be stuck with the city, I will give it a chance. The artist is the same person who did Five Ghosts Right? Honestly I really liked the Book by and the art style for the main character fit his Daredevil Thief persona which is similar to Dick's Origin I hope that Percy really has him lead to the level or above his for Oliver.

----------


## Ascended

> Nightwing is about to have a handful of little trainees in Titans. And while I'm iffy on that, it is a more interesting concept than bagging him with Bruce's less popular sidekicks. Pilfering a supporting cast from the character you are trying to establish independence from is not the path to A-List. (Though Dick never will be.)


I don't know if the Titans trainees "count" as far as this goes, but you've got a good point about not using established characters for such a "legacy" role.

Though I do like the idea of Rose, as others mentioned. Her and Nightwing do have a really fun, interesting dynamic.

But yeah, the best option would likely be a new character, and fans will just have to keep complaining about their personal favorite also-ran Gothamite not getting any panel time in favor of someone new. Oh well.

Though I do disagree that Dick will *never* be considered A-list. I think he's fully capable of it and is closer to it than almost any other B-lister; DC just needs to let it happen and let the character develop. Even if it seems unlikely under the current management, I figure that at some point in time, eventually, someone in the right position will realize they're letting potential profits slip out of their fingers and rectify the situation.

----------


## Drako

"When asked what to expect from this upcoming arc, King explained how Booster Gold works to get a Bat/Cat wedding - and misguidedly gives Bruce the gift of saving his parents from death.

In the story, its three years in an alternate reality where Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive -- but Bruce was never born.

So in this alt-history, Dick Grayson becomes the first Batman. (Remeber, Tom King co-wrote GRAYSON with Tim Seeley).

King: It's Dick without Bruce, with a lot of bullets.

Given how Bruce's parents were killed by guns he had an aversion to guns, given Dick's parents were killed by acid he has no aversion to uses guns - and in the art shown, the Dick Grayson/Batman is loaded for bear with a machine gun, and what looks to be a shotgun strapped to his back."



https://www.newsarama.com/39325-c2e2...man-panel.html

https://www.newsarama.com/39407-boos...sequences.html

----------


## Aahz

> New characters don't work for nightwing, they'll just go to limbo when the next creative team comes on.


That not really diffrent with an established character from an other franchise, who can also switch to an other book at any time.

----------


## Aahz

> "When asked what to expect from this upcoming arc, King explained how Booster Gold works to get a Bat/Cat wedding - and misguidedly gives Bruce the gift of saving his parents from death.
> 
> In the story, its three years in an alternate reality where Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive -- but Bruce was never born.


That sounds wired.

How can prevent Booster saving Bruce parents Bruce's birth, he was allready born when his parents died.

----------


## Badou

Interesting take on the character. Without Bruce being there to train and guide Dick it makes sense Dick would probably go rely on guns to fight crime. Since Dick doesn't have any trauma with guns and wouldn't really have the resources to train the way Bruce did in how he became a world class martial artists, so he'd have to use guns to make up for that lack of training Bruce would have given him.

----------


## Drako

i don't understand how Dick can become Batman if he doesn't share Bruce's fear of Bats from when he was little.

Every reality needs a Batman, i guess.

----------


## TheCape

King idea just sounds bizzare, but i guest that he is good enougth to make it fairly interesting.

----------


## Mataza

Hello!

We already have a way to know for sure if someone is an A-list hero or not. Its called the Justice League!

----------


## Badou

> i don't understand how Dick can become Batman if he doesn't share Bruce's fear of Bats from when he was little.
> 
> Every reality needs a Batman, i guess.


Yeah, I was thinking that too, but I think him being Batman is mostly to help sell the series. Batman book needs Batman. Dick becoming Owlman might have made more sense if we look at it though.

----------


## Alycat

> Hello!
> 
> We already have a way to know for sure if someone is an A-list hero or not. Its called the Justice League!


I dunno. I don't think Cyborg, Simon, or Jess for instance are A-list.

----------


## Moonwix

> "When asked what to expect from this upcoming arc, King explained how Booster Gold works to get a Bat/Cat wedding - and misguidedly gives Bruce the gift of saving his parents from death.
> 
> In the story, its three years in an alternate reality where Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive -- but Bruce was never born.
> 
> So in this alt-history, Dick Grayson becomes the first Batman. (Remeber, Tom King co-wrote GRAYSON with Tim Seeley).
> 
> King: It's Dick without Bruce, with a lot of bullets.
> 
> Given how Bruce's parents were killed by guns he had an aversion to guns, given Dick's parents were killed by acid he has no aversion to uses guns - and in the art shown, the Dick Grayson/Batman is loaded for bear with a machine gun, and what looks to be a shotgun strapped to his back."
> ...


The design remains me of the BVS nightmare batman with all those guns. The whole premise is bizarre but interesting....maybe.

----------


## Godlike13

Weird, but I’m game.

----------


## Mataza

> I dunno. I don't think Cyborg, Simon, or Jess for instance are A-list.


They are getting there. They are the most recent additions and already considered to be there by many.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> i don't understand how Dick can become Batman if he doesn't share Bruce's fear of Bats from when he was little.
> 
> Every reality needs a Batman, i guess.


Maybe the first person he goes up against has him on the ropes until the baddie's fear of bats comes into play, then Dick goes with it.

----------


## Restingvoice

They can just put bats whenever. My question is how saving Thomas and Martha made Bruce never born.

----------


## Ascended

> Every reality needs a Batman, i guess.


Given everything in Metal with the Bat and Bird tribes, it....sorta....makes sense, I guess?

But I cant say Im a fan of the idea. Isn't the whole point of Batman that he's just a mortal, not a god? He's just a man with a very personal mission, not a fundamental aspect of universal cosmic forces.

It seems to me that Batman's role in the wider DCU has strayed far beyond that premise. And I dislike it. 

King's story has an interesting premise and I'm always happy to see Grayson in a story, but given the history outside of Wayne manor shouldn't he be a Talon? 

I mean, if nothing else, couldn't they at least have given him a different cowl?

----------


## Ascended

> They can just put bats whenever. My question is how saving Thomas and Martha made Bruce never born.


I'm guessing Booster doesn't go back to the moment the Waynes died, but further back than that. Perhaps he remembers trying to save Barbara from the Killing Joke, and how he couldn't alter a fixed point in the timeline. So he goes back further, perhaps attempting to convince the Waynes not to go to the theater......and inadvertently causes them to drastically change their lives. Perhaps Booster's warning drives one of them into paranoia and they divorce. Perhaps one (or both) of them die years earlier than they should.

Gods damn it Booster, will you never learn?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

> "When asked what to expect from this upcoming arc, King explained how Booster Gold works to get a Bat/Cat wedding - and misguidedly gives Bruce the gift of saving his parents from death.
> 
> In the story, its three years in an alternate reality where Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive -- but Bruce was never born.
> 
> So in this alt-history, Dick Grayson becomes the first Batman. (Remeber, Tom King co-wrote GRAYSON with Tim Seeley).
> 
> King: It's Dick without Bruce, with a lot of bullets.
> 
> Given how Bruce's parents were killed by guns he had an aversion to guns, given Dick's parents were killed by acid he has no aversion to uses guns - and in the art shown, the Dick Grayson/Batman is loaded for bear with a machine gun, and what looks to be a shotgun strapped to his back."
> ...


Yeah... um... well... I mean I'll be reading it, but... um...

----------


## Frontier

> "When asked what to expect from this upcoming arc, King explained how Booster Gold works to get a Bat/Cat wedding - and misguidedly gives Bruce the gift of saving his parents from death.
> 
> In the story, its three years in an alternate reality where Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive -- but Bruce was never born.
> 
> So in this alt-history, Dick Grayson becomes the first Batman. (Remeber, Tom King co-wrote GRAYSON with Tim Seeley).
> 
> King: It's Dick without Bruce, with a lot of bullets.
> 
> Given how Bruce's parents were killed by guns he had an aversion to guns, given Dick's parents were killed by acid he has no aversion to uses guns - and in the art shown, the Dick Grayson/Batman is loaded for bear with a machine gun, and what looks to be a shotgun strapped to his back."
> ...


So Dick without Bruce turns into a Jason/Damian-esque Batman?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So Dick without Bruce turns into a Jason/Damian-esque Batman?


Without Bruce around to give him support after his parents death I could see him going this route particularly if he had no one to turn to for support. He would not have been allowed to stay with Haley's because CPS would have found a circus to be not a stable environment for a child and the foster system in Gotham is probably a mess so I could see both those things having an influence on how he turned out. With no support and no really solid family life I doubt he would be the guy we all know.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Gods damn it Booster, will you never learn?


I was gonna ask, is this in character for Booster? Shouldn't he have learned his lesson by now, or is this something he still does with alarming regularity?

I'm not well versed or interested in Booster Gold, so I'm on board regardless, but I think we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable "King is getting X character completely wrong to suit his narrative needs!" comments.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I was gonna ask, is this in character for Booster? Shouldn't he have learned his lesson by now, or is this something he still does with alarming regularity?
> 
> I'm not well versed or interested in Booster Gold, so I'm on board regardless, but I think we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable "King is getting X character completely wrong to suit his narrative needs!" comments.


To me, and maybe I'm wrong, it seems the this is something that happens by accident with Booster with some regularity. He oftentimes is trying to be helpful but then things just go massively wrong and he creates more of a mess. In other words trouble follows him.

----------


## Badou

Bruce being there helped Dick resolve his parents murder and catch the person who did it and it prevented Dick from turning into an obsessive person like Bruce. Without him Dick maybe never resolves it, like what happened to Bruce, or maybe he does it by killing Zucco since Bruce isn't there to put him on the right path. Which would turn Dick into a Punisher type since Dick has no aversion to guns really. Usually they just have Dick getting himself killed trying to avenge his parents' murder so it is interesting to see him make it to this level.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Bruce being there helped Dick resolve his parents murder and catch the person who did it and it prevented Dick from turning into an obsessive person like Bruce. Without him Dick maybe never resolves it, like what happened to Bruce, or maybe he does it by killing Zucco since Bruce isn't there to put him on the right path. Which would turn Dick into a Punisher type since Dick has no aversion to guns really. Usually they just have Dick getting himself killed trying to avenge his parents' murder so it is interesting to see him make it to this level.


Yeah, that's how I see it too.

----------


## Assam

> but I think we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable "King is getting X character completely wrong to suit his narrative needs!" comments.


You rang?  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Anywho, I'm gonna be fair and wait to hear what's actually going on here before I add this to King's list of failures, but Booster shouldn't be f**king up like this. Mind you after his appearance in Action Comics I have no idea what exact continuity for Booster we're working with here,  but even still, the Booster that freely travels through time as his regular gig? He's a time master whose job it is to _stop_ this kind of thing from happening. Even the aforementioned confusing story from AC had him stopping Superman from saving Krypton. 

I was worried King was gonna make Booster super depressed or suicidal, but instead it sounds like he's making him into an incompetent idiot.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You rang?  
> 
> Anywho, I'm gonna be fair and wait to hear what's actually going on here before I add this to King's list of failures, but Booster shouldn't be f**king up like this. Mind you after his appearance in Action Comics I have no idea what exact continuity for Booster we're working with here,  but even still, the Booster that freely travels through time as his regular gig? He's a time master whose job it is to _stop_ this kind of thing from happening. Even the aforementioned confusing story from AC had him stopping Superman from saving Krypton. 
> 
> I was worried King was gonna make Booster super depressed or suicidal, but instead it sounds like he's making him into an incompetent idiot.


Even a time master who is, after all, still human can make a mistake. That doesn't necessarily mean he's being written as an incompetent idiot in the story.

----------


## jbmasta

> I'm not well versed or interested in Booster Gold, so I'm on board regardless, but I think we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable "King is getting X character completely wrong to suit his narrative needs!" comments.


That's usually Bendis territory.

----------


## Assam

> Even a time master whom is still human can make a mistake. That doesn't necessarily mean he's being written as an incompetent idiot in the story.


Like I said, I'm gonna wait and see before I make a proper judgement.

----------


## Pohzee

It makes sense to me that Dick might follow the obsessive route Bruce took without his guidance, and the gun makes sense too, but did a Bat come crashing through his window too? That's the bit I have hangups with.

----------


## jbmasta

Why couldn't Booster just bring Thomas and Martha to the wedding, wipe their minds afterwards and return them home? If there's any sign of trouble, they're the first to be evacuated. It's simple and doesn't screw up the timeline.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Like I said, I'm gonna wait and see before I make a proper judgement.


Yeah, me too. I'm just saying Booster isn't infallible or perfect so a mistake on his part is totally within the realm of possibility at least to me. Or even not an actual mistake on his part but something outside his control going wrong with his plans.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Why couldn't Booster just bring Thomas and Martha to the wedding, wipe their minds afterwards and return them home? If there's any sign of trouble, they're the first to be evacuated. It's simple and doesn't screw up the timeline.


Technically, having them at the wedding would screw up the timeline since they don't exist in that time but I do see your point.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, me too. I'm just saying Booster isn't infallible or perfect so a mistake on his part is totally within the realm of possibility at least to me.


Nah, I'm with you there. Just don't exactly have much faith in King. 

AC actually did King a favor by making Michael's continuity so frustratingly unclear. Now I can't be annoyed (okay, not _as_ annoyed) is he doesn't remember that Bruce is supposed to be one of the few people who actually knows about Booster's accomplishments.

----------


## TheCape

> It makes sense to me that Dick might follow the obsessive route Bruce took without his guidance, and the gun makes sense too, but did a Bat come crashing through his window too? That's the bit I have hangups with.


Probably something among those lines, a Batman always had to exist after all, so it won't surprised me it some of those rodent chrashed into the room of the orphanage.

----------


## Badou

> It makes sense to me that Dick might follow the obsessive route Bruce took without his guidance, and the gun makes sense too, but did a Bat come crashing through his window too? That's the bit I have hangups with.


People asked the same thing when Thomas Wayne became Batman in Flashpoint. I think it just that Gotham will always have a Batman. It is one of those universal constants, haha.

----------


## jbmasta

> Technically, having them at the wedding would screw up the timeline since they don't exist in that time but I do see your point.


Could have them come under false identities, long lost family for example (in Dark Shadows long lost family member was the go to cover story for Barnabas each time he emerged from the coffin in a different time, a descendant of the original Barnabas Collins). It'd explain the resemblance to themselves and Bruce. With time travel they can be returned to the moment they were extracted from. Heck, some impression of Bruce tying the knot might make them that little bit more happier. Two trips in time, two people being temporarily displaced. That's got to be better than changing the whole timeline.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Could have them come under false identities, long lost family for example (in Dark Shadows long lost family member was the go to cover story for Barnabas each time he emerged from the coffin in a different time, a descendant of the original Barnabas Collins). It'd explain the resemblance to themselves and Bruce. With time travel they can be returned to the moment they were extracted from. Heck, some impression of Bruce tying the knot might make them that little bit more happier. Two trips in time, two people being temporarily displaced. That's got to be better than changing the whole timeline.


But having them there, even incognito, still changes the timeline simply because they are somewhere and some time where they don't exist. I would think even something as small as that would cause a ripple effect in the time stream. I'm not sure that's any better given that it would require two trips in time and involve two time displaced people. Plenty of chances for the timeline to get altered would still exist in that scenario. The Flashpoint world existed because Barry went back in time just to save his mother's life after all.

----------


## jbmasta

> But having them there, even incognito, still changes the timeline simply because they are somewhere and some time where they don't exist. I would think even something as small as that would cause a ripple effect in the time stream. I'm not sure that's any better given that it would require two trips in time and involve two time displaced people. Plenty of chances for the timeline to get altered would still exist in that scenario. The Flashpoint world existed because Barry went back in time just to save his mother's life after all.


Would this still happen if Booster retrieves Thomas and Martha, explains they are going to their grown up son's wedding and that they need to pretend to be long lost family members, erase their memories after the event and return them to the exact moment he extracted them? Because they'd still be present to do what the timeline requires of them (getting shot in Crime Alley), the only change would be that they were at most a few hours older than they should be. With Flashpoint Barry changed history. Even if his mother was the only factor that's one more person who was alive than there should have been. Henry Allen doesn't go to jail for Nora Allen's murder. Barry doesn't have the goal of proving his father innocent, so that's not a valid motivation for Barry to train as a CSI. He might not end up in a room full of chemicals and get struck by lightning, and not become Flash. Anyone and anything linked to Flash changes. The beat of a butterfly's wings causes widespread changes.

This would be Booster borrowing a couple of people from the past and returning them in the condition he got them. Find an ideal point, like the evening before the fatal excursion, and that lives little time for the few hours older discrepancy to be discovered. Even if something does seem off, they go out with Bruce that night and wind up fulfilling their final role in the timeline.

Alternatively Booster could take Bruce back to that fateful night, pull his parent aside and do the whole I'm from the future about to get married thing. They're going to die soon anyway, the timeline intact. Even though it's a happy moment for Bruce and his parents, it's bittersweet because future Bruce knows he can't stop the events that are about to occur.

----------


## yohyoi

Will Percy amaze the hard to impress Dick Appreciation thread?

Will King no longer be their Grayson god after turning Dick into a murderous Batman?

Will they keep on being passive aggressive on Seeley's upcoming issue?

Will Abnett write a good serie- No! But for the rest find out on the next episode of "Why am I a Dick Grayson fan again?".

----------


## yohyoi

btw DickBats Best Bats. Even the shoot-them-all-on-the-face one. They probably deserve it.  :Cool:   :Stick Out Tongue:   :Wink:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Would this still happen if Booster retrieves Thomas and Martha, explains they are going to their grown up son's wedding and that they need to pretend to be long lost family members, erase their memories after the event and return them to the exact moment he extracted them? Because they'd still be present to do what the timeline requires of them (getting shot in Crime Alley), the only change would be that they were at most a few hours older than they should be. With Flashpoint Barry changed history. Even if his mother was the only factor that's one more person who was alive than there should have been. Henry Allen doesn't go to jail for Nora Allen's murder. Barry doesn't have the goal of proving his father innocent, so that's not a valid motivation for Barry to train as a CSI. He might not end up in a room full of chemicals and get struck by lightning, and not become Flash. Anyone and anything linked to Flash changes. The beat of a butterfly's wings causes widespread changes.
> 
> This would be Booster borrowing a couple of people from the past and returning them in the condition he got them. Find an ideal point, like the evening before the fatal excursion, and that lives little time for the few hours older discrepancy to be discovered. Even if something does seem off, they go out with Bruce that night and wind up fulfilling their final role in the timeline.
> 
> Alternatively Booster could take Bruce back to that fateful night, pull his parent aside and do the whole I'm from the future about to get married thing. They're going to die soon anyway, the timeline intact. Even though it's a happy moment for Bruce and his parents, it's bittersweet because future Bruce knows he can't stop the events that are about to occur.


Sure a writer could write the story like that if they wanted but since time travel is involved I would still be wondering how they got away with it without affecting the local time stream in any way. In other words I'd need a solid explanation as to how it was accomplished without disrupting anything. Given that this is Booster Gold I'd have a hard time believing that something wouldn't go wrong. He seems to be a Murphy's Law magnet. Plus there are simply to many variables to completely control anyway. Booster may be able to travel in time but that doesn't make him infallible or perfect or even 100% accurate at all times.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Well, the solicits for the Booster Gold story was about Michael recruiting Batman to help him stop the slightly younger Michael going back in time to stop an even younger version of himself from changing Batman's past. 

So if that's all still in play (bearded Michael on the #46 cover tells me it will be), then everything makes a lot of sense. Super young Michael would make a mistake like that, a somewhat older one could believably mess up in his attempt to prevent that, and it'd take a more experienced Michael to fix all of that, lol. 

And there's the stuff with Joker and Catwoman that's also got me interested in the arc. The cover with Selina eating that popcorn while not giving a shit about Batman (who I guess is Dick) makes a lot more sense with it being Dick and not Bruce. Whereas the Joker seems to be pretty much the same regardless of who's Batman. So the whole story is arguing that there will always be a Batman and a Joker, and the world is better off with a Bruce Wayne, and that Dick and Selina (and Tim) are very different people without Bruce. That sounds pretty fun, imo, so I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## jbmasta

> Sure a writer could write the story like that if they wanted but since time travel is involved I would still be wondering how they got away with it without affecting the local time stream in any way. In other words I'd need a solid explanation as to how it was accomplished without disrupting anything. Given that this is Booster Gold I'd have a hard time believing that something wouldn't go wrong. He seems to be a Murphy's Law magnet. Plus there are simply to many variables to completely control anyway. Booster may be able to travel in time but that doesn't make him infallible or perfect or even 100% accurate at all times.


How about only Booster time travels. He seeks out Thomas and Martha shortly before they die (possibly at a social event, maybe even a wedding) and asks them what they'd say if they could be at Bruce's wedding one day. Booster records this and gives the recording to Bruce. Only Booster time travels, it only takes ten minutes and Bruce's parents remain in their correct place in the time stream. Bruce gets a heartfelt wedding present that is in a way from his parents. In season two of the Flash TV show Barry travels back to season one to get some intel, and asks Eddie to record a message for Iris's birthday, which in the present (season two) Barry shows Iris. The timeline isn't changed like with Flashpoint and it helps give Iris closure over Eddie.

----------


## Ascended

> I was gonna ask, is this in character for Booster? Shouldn't he have learned his lesson by now, or is this something he still does with alarming regularity?
> 
> I'm not well versed or interested in Booster Gold, so I'm on board regardless, but I think we should prepare ourselves for the inevitable "King is getting X character completely wrong to suit his narrative needs!" comments.


It's.....mostly.....in character. 

Now, I haven't seen much of Booster since the reboot, and I can't speak for exactly what version we're dealing with and that does make a difference. But even when Booster was working with Rip Hunter to protect the timestream (pre-52) he made plenty of mistakes. And several very much like what this one looks like.

I'd say that for most takes on Booster, screwing up the timeline by trying to do something nice for someone is pretty in character for him.

----------


## Pohzee

I know it's a Batman title, so there always has to be a Batman in it, and making Dick Batman is the best way to give him a focus. But, given the writer and the premise, how neat would it have been if Dick went down this same path, but he was never inspired by Batman? Instead of being a Punisher-esque version of Batman, he would be a Punisher-esque version of Agent Grayson.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

I'm genuinely shocked so many of you actually like Mooneyham's Nightwing. Not my taste as I don't see his style as being "Nightwing" more fit for Batman Daredevil or any other older hero. I can't wait till Nightwing stories aren't described as being "Batman" "Daredevil" type stories. I live for the day comic writers will be saying "Well, it's a very Nightwing kinda story" "We wanted to tell a Nightwing-ish story" "We went for a more Nightwing kinda art style." One day right? 

I trust Tom. It's just an Alternate Reality outside the box thing  anyway and as long as I'm given a genuine reason to why he's the way he is I'm okay with it. More exposure for Dick. So big whoop.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I trust Tom. It's just an Alternate Reality outside the box thing  anyway and as long as I'm given a genuine reason to why he's the way he is I'm okay with it. More exposure for Dick. So big whoop.


Yeah. The Dick in this storyline could be full blown psycho and I won't really care too much. It's a Dick in a bad alternate timeline that isn't going to be permanent. 
King has enough goodwill from treating the main version of the character better than most, so I'm down for whatever.

----------


## WonderNight

It's great to see dickbats again! Maybe us steph fans can ask tom on twitter for Steph robin in this?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah. The Dick in this storyline could be full blown psycho and I won't really care too much. It's a Dick in a bad alternate timeline that isn't going to be permanent. 
> King has enough goodwill from treating the main version of the character better than most, so I'm down for whatever.


Exactly and I think it could be a fun little Alt-reality story. I'm up for that kind of thing and that its Dick is just a bonus.

----------


## Aioros22

Accidents following Booster is in character but only and majorily on behalf of humor* or character development. Ever since his return to the spothlight years ago he`s been written as responsible, well earned and being good at his job. The being lousy part is merely what he lets anyone think so his job is easier to him. Being underestimated is his biggest advantage. 

The guy took on everyone from Trigon to Doomsday with guts and ingenuiety and just recently basically lectured Superman of all people exactly on this sort of thing. His older self is basically THE proverbial Time Master of the DCU, better at the job than even his son Rip Hunter. So, is this in character...yeah..mostly for his younger 80`s guy. Not for the current man. And it reads likely what it seems like it reads: something done for Batman at the expense at make Booster look like an idiot. As if Batman needs that kind of proverbial help. 

Waiting for more info but probably skipping this altogether. 


* like for example his Flinstones crossover but that goes without saying, right?

----------


## Aioros22

> *How about only Booster time travels. He seeks out Thomas and Martha shortly before they die (possibly at a social event, maybe even a wedding) and asks them what they'd say if they could be at Bruce's wedding one day. Booster records this and gives the recording to Bruce*. Only Booster time travels, it only takes ten minutes and Bruce's parents remain in their correct place in the time stream. Bruce gets a heartfelt wedding present that is in a way from his parents. In season two of the Flash TV show Barry travels back to season one to get some intel, and asks Eddie to record a message for Iris's birthday, which in the present (season two) Barry shows Iris. The timeline isn't changed like with Flashpoint and it helps give Iris closure over Eddie.


Well, that`s the geist. Current Michael wouldn`t do it. At most, if this is still the same Batman who is one of the few people who knows about Michael`s cover as the Time Master, as a gift, he would take Bruce to see them one last time before embarking on a whole new familiar life. That`s what he just did with Superman. He didn`t let Clark actually change anything (tho, he did try with messed things up creating an alternative Krypton - similarities ensue) but as a partying gif for Clark having found Michael`s mother and let them say goodbye, he returned the favor by having Superman witness their last moment together as the rocket was launched to Earth. 

This may turn into a funny story and in character with the later years if any mess is done by a younger Booster but a younger Booster wouldn`t know yet that these two are marrying and thus would not have the motivation of making any gesture about it. So in short, I`m not sure I look forward to see how King is supposed to make this work without making the character look the dofus.

----------


## Aioros22

And I know it`s hypocritical to go there (hey, they did change it later) but enjoying to see that BatmanJason such an archetype in the franchise like BatmanBruce. You dress like daddy if you play nice and like the rebel brother if you wanna be bad.  

Where does that exactly put Dick and Tim when it comes to that sort of promotion design? They never have their own thing as appearantly Terry, Damian and Jason have.

----------


## Rakiduam

> And I know it`s hypocritical to go there (hey, they did change it later) but enjoying to see that BatmanJason such an archetype in the franchise like BatmanBruce. You dress like daddy if you play nice and like the rebel brother if you wanna be bad.  
> 
> Where does that exactly put Dick and Tim when it comes to that sort of promotion design? They never have their own thing as appearantly Terry, Damian and Jason have.


Yeah, that is hypocritical. BatmanJason such an archetype sinece when? wait never mind I don't want to talk about Jason, nor the many ways you think every Robin or Batman character is really Jason or a reference to Jason or Jason with another name

----------


## Badou

> And I know it`s hypocritical to go there (hey, they did change it later) but enjoying to see that BatmanJason such an archetype in the franchise like BatmanBruce. You dress like daddy if you play nice and like the rebel brother if you wanna be bad.  
> 
> Where does that exactly put Dick and Tim when it comes to that sort of promotion design? They never have their own thing as appearantly Terry, Damian and Jason have.


I don't really see it that way. When Thomas Wayne was Batman and used guns did they call him a BatmanJason archtype? He was just Thomas Wayne Batman. He even wore Red and used handguns like Jason.

----------


## Drako

Jason was not even the first Robin that became "Batman with Guns". Future Tim did it way earlier.

----------


## Rakiduam

To be honest I tend to think of AzraelBatman as the source of an antihero Batman

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't really see it that way. When Thomas Wayne was Batman and used guns did they call him a BatmanJason archtype? He was just Thomas Wayne Batman. He even wore Red and used handguns like Jason.


Thats because Batman Jason isn't an archtype, lol. No one is dressing up as Jason when they put on a Batman suit.

----------


## Pohzee

Nevah been done befoe

----------


## jbmasta

> I know it's a Batman title, so there always has to be a Batman in it, and making Dick Batman is the best way to give him a focus. But, given the writer and the premise, how neat would it have been if Dick went down this same path, but he was never inspired by Batman? Instead of being a Punisher-esque version of Batman, he would be a Punisher-esque version of Agent Grayson.


He only infiltrated Sypral because his Nightwing and Dick Grayson covers were blown and Bruce asked him to. Itd make more sense if a Bruce Wayne-less world had Talon Grayson instead of Batman Grayson or Agent 37.

----------


## Armor of God

I find the guns thing completely uninspired. I dont think Jason has exclusive rights or anything but after BatTim, the Flashpoint Thomas who was retconned in to being a gun user thanks to the animated film, Batfleck and even that small cameo of Damian Batman in Batman vs Robin I'm just sick and tired of darker Batmen using guns.

----------


## Badou

> He only infiltrated Sypral because his Nightwing and Dick Grayson covers were blown and Bruce asked him to. It’d make more sense if a Bruce Wayne-less world had Talon Grayson instead of Batman Grayson or Agent 37.


Honestly, I'm okay with them moving away from the Owls and the Talon stuff. 




> I find the guns thing completely uninspired. I dont think Jason has exclusive rights or anything but after BatTim, the Flashpoint Thomas who was retconned in to being a gun user thanks to the animated film, Batfleck and even that small cameo of Damian Batman in Batman vs Robin I'm just sick and tired of darker Batmen using guns.


How would you make them different from Bruce then? Especially if they are darker? Bruce is the one that has the trauma with guns. Unless you give them all some gun related trauma or have Bruce instill the "no guns" mindset in them beforehand (like we had with pre-New 52 DickBats) then logically there wouldn't be any reason for them to not use guns.

----------


## Armor of God

> Honestly, I'm okay with them moving away from the Owls and the Talon stuff. 
> 
> 
> 
> How would you make them different from Bruce then? Especially if they are darker? Bruce is the one that has the trauma with guns. Unless you give them all some gun related trauma or have Bruce instill the "no guns" mindset in them beforehand (like we had with pre-New 52 DickBats) then logically there wouldn't be any reason for them to not use guns.



I think with a little creativity you can go a long way, Batman 666 is darker but doesn't use guns, JPV Batman was more violent but didn't use guns, if you count Bane from Arkham War then he didn't use guns either.
If Dick is using guns then it should be as a darker agent Grayson. Or make him a Batman for the Court of Owls who uses blades and claws, uniqueness creates something memorable.

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly, I'm okay with them moving away from the Owls and the Talon stuff.


But that would at least look like a logical consequence. Dick becoming Batman with Guns completely on his own seems a very random.

(Btw. the whole premise of Bruce parents getting saved reminds me that I really would like to see a continuation of the Earth 5 Batman story.)

----------


## jbmasta

> But that would at least look like a logical consequence. Dick becoming Batman with Guns completely on his own seems a very random.
> 
> (Btw. the whole premise of Bruce parents getting saved reminds me that I really would like to see a continuation of the Earth 5 Batman story.)


Exactly. How does Bruce not being born lead to Dick becoming Batman? Batman was a figure Bruce created. It was Bruce adopting Dick that diverted Dick from the path of becoming a Talon. No Bruce, that path isn’t diverted. Like others in the circus’s past Dick is trained as a Talon.

----------


## Armor of God

While I understand trepadition about the Court ( Higgins Nightwing is far from stellar) DC could have used them and still made Dick Batman instead of Talon.

There are 2 ways it could have been accomplished:
1) Dick becomes Talon but betrays the Court and becomes Batman. Rejecting the Owl for its enemy the Bat, which keeps in line with Snyder's original theme for the Court of Owls storyline.
2) Since in Rebirth the Court has been revealed/retconned in to being Barbatos worshippers it would make sense if they created their ultimate warrior in the image of their God Barbatos.

----------


## Badou

> But that would at least look like a logical consequence. Dick becoming Batman with Guns completely on his own seems a very random.


You could say the same with Thomas Wayne when he became Batman. It's comics. You can chalk it up to Gotham always needs a Batman and it will find a way regardless if Bruce is there or not. If Bruce doesn't exist then Dick become his version of Batman, and if Dick also doesn't exist I'm sure someone else will be Batman. 




> Exactly. How does Bruce not being born lead to Dick becoming Batman? Batman was a figure Bruce created. It was Bruce adopting Dick that diverted Dick from the path of becoming a Talon. No Bruce, that path isnt diverted. Like others in the circuss past Dick is trained as a Talon.


I think turning Haly's Circus into some Owls training ground was stupid. I'm perfectly fine with them ignoring that. It has added nothing to Dick's character in the long run. I'm okay with them getting rid of that with Rebirth.

----------


## Armor of God

Thomas becoming Batman was a novel concept though. Dick or another Robin becoming Batman is not.

----------


## Badou

> Thomas becoming Batman was a novel concept though. Dick or another Robin becoming Batman is not.


But from a continuity standpoint it makes as much sense as Dick becoming Batman. That is the hangup people seem to have with it. I said a few pages back that Dick becoming Owlman would have made more sense if you want to analyze it from a pure logistics standpoint, but Gotham needs a Batman and so Dick is Batman here. I have no problems with that. Usually in these stories where Bruce never exists Dick ends up dead very early from trying to fight crime on his own with no guidance. So I'm just impressed we actually get a story where he made it.

----------


## Armor of God

Oh dont get me wrong. I want a darker Dickbats story, just feel that DC could have created a "definite" take on that concept.

----------


## jbmasta

> You could say the same with Thomas Wayne when he became Batman. It's comics. You can chalk it up to Gotham always needs a Batman and it will find a way regardless if Bruce is there or not. If Bruce doesn't exist then Dick become his version of Batman, and if Dick also doesn't exist I'm sure someone else will be Batman. 
> 
> I think turning Haly's Circus into some Owls training ground was stupid. I'm perfectly fine with them ignoring that. It has added nothing to Dick's character in the long run. I'm okay with them getting rid of that with Rebirth.


If the Court of Owls hadn’t been expanded into a bat family event Talon could have a recurring character in the Nightwing title (New 52 frequently pushed the title around based on the crossovers), someone who Dick could have become had Bruce not adopted him. Dick wants to rehabilitate Talon, but has to confront his own black mirror to do so. The whole Owl thing always felt more like a Nightwing thing. Robin War was about the endgame of gaining Dick as their Gray Son of Gotham, and Better Than Batman was Dick bringing down the Court from the inside.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I absolutely wish the Owl stuff is completely removed/ignored for Dick in Haly’s Circus. It makes Dick Grayson and his entire family history just little pawns In Batman’s affairs. Had Dick had some crucial role in Court Of Owls/Dark Metal you could use it but at best it is a footnote compared to Batman’s Book. The a Parliament Of Owls was a noble attempt to try to carve his own corner but Metal completely disregarded it. The Last thing Dick did was contemplate on the Court and their weapons but he went MIA and the Court was slaughtered by the Robins. Court Of Owls is something that should be given fully to Batman and leave Dick to create something new or pull from HIS history. He does not need a connection to Gotham beyond Batman and his Circus should also be divorced from the affairs of Gotham instead of some assasin Training ground.

----------


## Restingvoice

The worst part about The Court of Owls for me is how The Court has more connection with Gotham history but Dick has the more personal connection with The Court. So to me this is a villain that's divided based on the type of threat. Personal for Dick, city wide for Bats. 

When Batman is facing The Court, unless Lincoln March is involved, it feels less personal for me, aside from that one time they almost drove him nuts. Even then, the strongest Talon was Dick's great grandfather. Looking back it really felt like it's a story made for DickBats with Lincoln March tacked on to make it personal to Bruce. 

The Court started out interesting as the creepy mysterious organization but once it's revealed they became this ridiculous rich people club with absurd plans. So even as a city-wide enemy they're no longer that interesting as Batman's enemy. That leaves the personal connection, but since nobody seems to like Lincoln March besides Snyder, so they're getting even less interesting. 

That's why I like the Parliament as Dick's villain. Aside from being the global enemy, Dick has that personal connection. Creating a villain utopia using refugee slaves is also a more compelling villain narrative than manipulating Batman to summon a dark god.

Gosh, make Dick a global hero fighting global organization. They can still base him in Bludhaven if they like. That solves my Nightwing, Bludhaven, Spyral and Owls problem in one swoop.

----------


## jbmasta

> The worst part about The Court of Owls for me is how The Court has more connection with Gotham history but Dick has the more personal connection with The Court. So to me this is a villain that's divided based on the type of threat. Personal for Dick, city wide for Bats. 
> 
> When Batman is facing The Court, unless Lincoln March is involved, it feels less personal for me, aside from that one time they almost drove him nuts. Even then, the strongest Talon was Dick's great grandfather. Looking back it really felt like it's a story made for DickBats with Lincoln March tacked on to make it personal to Bruce. 
> 
> The Court started out interesting as the creepy mysterious organization but once it's revealed they became this ridiculous rich people club with absurd plans. So even as a city-wide enemy they're no longer that interesting as Batman's enemy. That leaves the personal connection, but since nobody seems to like Lincoln March besides Snyder, so they're getting even less interesting. 
> 
> That's why I like the Parliament as Dick's villain. Aside from being the global enemy, Dick has that personal connection. Creating a villain utopia using refugee slaves is also a more compelling villain narrative than manipulating Batman to summon a dark god.
> 
> Gosh, make Dick a global hero fighting global organization. They can still base him in Bludhaven if they like. That solves my Nightwing, Bludhaven, Spyral and Owls problem in one swoop.


What’s worse is that Batman vs Robin, the film adapting the Court of Owls storyline, basically sidelined Dick unless Damien was pulling one over on him or he had to call off a date with Starfire. In the DC animated films Dick seems to be the designated butt monkey (character who tends to be the butt of the joke).

Rather telling that when Rebirth started, Seeley killed off Lincoln March in the Rebirth issue of Nightwing without any ceremony (there was more interest in developing his killer, later revealed to be Raptor). The Owls should have been Dick’s enemies, not Bruce’s. They could have joined Dick’s rogues gallery, which is a lot smaller than Bruce’s. Crossovers were a problem in the New 52.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thats because Batman Jason isn't an archtype, lol. No one is dressing up as Jason when they put on a Batman suit.


Satire flying over like an acrobat. Yes, that would be the point. 

Batman using 45s isn`t BatmanJason. Batman using a military design as the suit is more like Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Anyhow, fun as it is to point at Dick's tremendious fashion statement, I'm more concerned about Booster.

----------


## Aahz

> You could say the same with Thomas Wayne when he became Batman. It's comics. You can chalk it up to Gotham always needs a Batman and it will find a way regardless if Bruce is there or not. If Bruce doesn't exist then Dick become his version of Batman, and if Dick also doesn't exist I'm sure someone else will be Batman.


At least if you go by the silver age version (which may or may not be canon), Thomas was actually the first Batman.

I'm also not a big fan of the Court of the Owls retcon, but I prefer when the such a what if scenario builds up logically on the established lore, and there "allways has to be a Batman" is not a good reason. 


And Thomas didn't have much of an established history and personality, therefore him becoming Batman seems less odd.

----------


## Armor of God

> The worst part about The Court of Owls for me is how The Court has more connection with Gotham history but Dick has the more personal connection with The Court. So to me this is a villain that's divided based on the type of threat. Personal for Dick, city wide for Bats. 
> 
> When Batman is facing The Court, unless Lincoln March is involved, it feels less personal for me, aside from that one time they almost drove him nuts. Even then, the strongest Talon was Dick's great grandfather. Looking back it really felt like it's a story made for DickBats with Lincoln March tacked on to make it personal to Bruce. 
> 
> The Court started out interesting as the creepy mysterious organization but once it's revealed they became this ridiculous rich people club with absurd plans. So even as a city-wide enemy they're no longer that interesting as Batman's enemy. That leaves the personal connection, but since nobody seems to like Lincoln March besides Snyder, so they're getting even less interesting. 
> 
> That's why I like the Parliament as Dick's villain. Aside from being the global enemy, Dick has that personal connection. Creating a villain utopia using refugee slaves is also a more compelling villain narrative than manipulating Batman to summon a dark god.
> 
> Gosh, make Dick a global hero fighting global organization. They can still base him in Bludhaven if they like. That solves my Nightwing, Bludhaven, Spyral and Owls problem in one swoop.


Actually the strongest Talon was Felix Harmon both in terms of character and power. He really would be a cool villain for Dick and Harmon can even work without the Owls connection.

I agree with the sentiment that the Owls should be expunged from Dick's history and that Higgins attempt to cash in on Snyder's story was poor. But till we get an outright retcon I think this alternate present could have gone with a uniquer Batman.
Maybe he's Deathstroke's protege? That would make sense.

----------


## Ascended

I didn't like the retcon of Haley's circus being a Talon farm when it happened. I felt it took a lot of agency away from Nightwing, and I typically hate the idea of "manifest destiny" being injected into a character's past from out of nowhere just on principal. 

But with a little distance.....I don't quite hate the idea quite as much. I still like the Court of Owls, and their whole deal with Barbatos....well, it's not even a little bit original but the visuals do help a lot, and this sort of turns the Owls into the straight-laced "managers" of the rock band, always trying to get their unruly charges to the show on time......and that's just a funny thought. 

And the thing with Haley's.....making Dick the almost-assassin for the Court does fold nicely with the Spyral/super-spy concept......so I can appreciate the idea for that. But if I had it my way, the Court would still be a thorn in Dick's side but we'd never mention the Haley's thing again.

----------


## oasis1313

> Exactly. How does Bruce not being born lead to Dick becoming Batman? Batman was a figure Bruce created. It was Bruce adopting Dick that diverted Dick from the path of becoming a Talon. No Bruce, that path isnt diverted. Like others in the circuss past Dick is trained as a Talon.


I haven't seen any evidence that Dick is officially adopted in the latest reboot.  Am I missing something somewhere?

----------


## Badou

I think Snyder came up with the idea of the Court of Owls when writing DickBats pre-New 52, but he very much designed the Court to be a Batman villain. With the whole Owl is the enemy of the Bat theme he really hammered home. I don't think they could have been a Nightiwng villain unless they tie Dick's character even more with the Court, which I don't want. I think they even flirted with the idea of having Nightwing be a name that Dick came up with because of the influence of the Court unknowingly. Night + Wing = a bird at night = Owl. I'm glad Seeley dropped that idea and the whole Parliament storyline fizzled out. 

I guess the main reason I don't like the change to Haley's Circus is because it changes what I like about Dick and Bruce's history. The idea that if Bruce didn't save Dick then Dick would have gone down the exact same road Bruce did. So Bruce stopped Dick from become like him, which you could argue is Bruce's greatest accomplishment given how long it has lasted and everything Dick accomplishes is a testament to Bruce helping Dick resolve his past. The Court stuff changes it where if Bruce doesn't help Dick then Dick becomes a Talon, which I find a lot less interesting and thematic. 




> I haven't seen any evidence that Dick is officially adopted in the latest reboot.  Am I missing something somewhere?


Dick didn't become Robin until he was 15-16 then stopped being Robin a few years later. I know people say Rebirth will change this but ever image of him as Robin has him looking like he is 16 still. I don't think the adoption story works as well for a 16 year old as it does if Dick was 10-12.

----------


## Godlike13

I like the Court of Owls, but at the same time it pretty much destroys Haleys. Dick can never really go home again after that reveal.

----------


## TheCape

> I haven't seen any evidence that Dick is officially adopted in the latest reboot.  Am I missing something somewhere?


In current continuity, only Jason has been adopted.

----------


## oasis1313

> In current continuity, only Jason has been adopted.


That's what I thought.  Adoptions can be done at any age and by any person.  I could adopt my 89 year-old mother-in-law as my daughter if we both wanted to do it (ugh).  I'd further ask:  In the current continuity, did the Haly's Circus Massacre by the Joker take place?  I haven't seen it mentioned but I don't read every book out there.

----------


## Frontier

> That's what I thought.  Adoptions can be done at any age and by any person.  I could adopt my 89 year-old mother-in-law as my daughter if we both wanted to do it (ugh).  I'd further ask:  In the current continuity, did the Haly's Circus Massacre by the Joker take place?  I haven't seen it mentioned but I don't read every book out there.


I don't think there's any reason to assume it didn't, but it's not something I see writers bringing back up again unless what's going on with Haly's ever comes up, but given circus' are going to be defunct soon anyways it might not matter much.

----------


## Armor of God

> I think Snyder came up with the idea of the Court of Owls when writing DickBats pre-New 52, but he very much designed the Court to be a Batman villain. With the whole Owl is the enemy of the Bat theme he really hammered home. I don't think they could have been a Nightiwng villain unless they tie Dick's character even more with the Court, which I don't want. I think they even flirted with the idea of having Nightwing be a name that Dick came up with because of the influence of the Court unknowingly. Night + Wing = a bird at night = Owl. I'm glad Seeley dropped that idea and the whole Parliament storyline fizzled out. 
> 
> I guess the main reason I don't like the change to Haley's Circus is because it changes what I like about Dick and Bruce's history. The idea that if Bruce didn't save Dick then Dick would have gone down the exact same road Bruce did. So Bruce stopped Dick from become like him, which you could argue is Bruce's greatest accomplishment given how long it has lasted and everything Dick accomplishes is a testament to Bruce helping Dick resolve his past. The Court stuff changes it where if Bruce doesn't help Dick then Dick becomes a Talon, which I find a lot less interesting and thematic. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dick didn't become Robin until he was 15-16 then stopped being Robin a few years later. I know people say Rebirth will change this but ever image of him as Robin has him looking like he is 16 still. I don't think the adoption story works as well for a 16 year old as it does if Dick was 10-12.


Snyder's idea for the Court back when Dick was Batman was exact same thing Higgins created in New 52 Nightwing. Basically a secret society which used the circus as a recruiting ground for killers. The theme was that Dick doesn't really know his past and the circus as well as he thinks he does. When Bruce became the sole Batman, they changed it to Batman doesn't know Gotham and its history as well as he thinks he does. Snyder said this on Twitter.

----------


## jbmasta

> I haven't seen any evidence that Dick is officially adopted in the latest reboot.  Am I missing something somewhere?


In the Secret Origins issue for Grayson, where Helena is nominating Dick to join Spyral, handily doubling as exposition on Dick’s background and establishing what his background is in New 52.

----------


## jbmasta

> I like the Court of Owls, but at the same time it pretty much destroys Haleys. Dick can never really go home again after that reveal.


And Death of the Family made sure it had to be rested for a good while.

----------


## The World

Can't really say I cared much about Haley's circus being a farm for Talon's. Kind of added a sense of dumb luck to Bruce taking in Dick that night, I always like coincidences in a medium everything is often played as interconnected.

----------


## Rac7d*

> In the Secret Origins issue for Grayson, where Helena is nominating Dick to join Spyral, handily doubling as exposition on Dick’s background and establishing what his background is in New 52.


is that one even still cannon, thats the issue that brought up the romani thing and thus spun his ethnicity into hell

----------


## oasis1313

> In the Secret Origins issue for Grayson, where Helena is nominating Dick to join Spyral, handily doubling as exposition on Dick’s background and establishing what his background is in New 52.


That's a very dim memory and the issue is buried somewhere in my over-large collection.  But I don't believe it was stated that Dick was adopted by Bruce.  Wasn't it something to the effect that it was arranged that while in the orphanage he got a job working at Wayne Manor as the cover story?

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## jbmasta

> is that one even still cannon, thats the issue that brought up the romani thing and thus spun his ethnicity into hell


To be fair the Romani thing was only ever relevant in the Better Than Batman arc of Nightwing.




> That's a very dim memory and the issue is buried somewhere in my over-large collection.  But I don't believe it was stated that Dick was adopted by Bruce.  Wasn't it something to the effect that it was arranged that while in the orphanage he got a job working at Wayne Manor as the cover story?


It’s in the first Grayson trade.

----------


## Restingvoice

> is that one even still canon, that's the issue that brought up the Romani thing and thus spun his ethnicity into hell


Since Grayson is canon, yes. Except for the ethnicity. Grayson established he's of Romani descent but no mention how. Nightwing Rebirth specified he's half from her mother's side




> That's a very dim memory and the issue is buried somewhere in my over-large collection.  But I don't believe it was stated that Dick was adopted by Bruce.  Wasn't it something to the effect that it was arranged that while in the orphanage he got a job working at Wayne Manor as the cover story?


No, that one's from the even older Nightwing #0, his first New 52 origin, which since then expanded in Batman and Robin Annual #Iforgot where Dick was taken to live at the Manor after he decided to be Robin, and expanded again in Grayson Secret Origin #8
In New 52, Nightwing said he was adopted way back in issue #1. It's a throwaway thought box that a lot of people forget because they're too busy angry at Nightwing #0 when it looked like Dick never stay at the Manor.

If Rebirth changed anything, I don't remember except for his mother being Romani.

----------


## jbmasta

> Since Grayson is canon, yes. Except for the ethnicity. Grayson established he's of Romani descent but no mention how. Nightwing Rebirth specified he's half from her mother's side
> 
> 
> 
> No, that one's from the even older Nightwing #0, his first New 52 origin, which since then expanded in Batman and Robin Annual #Iforgot where Dick was taken to live at the Manor after he decided to be Robin, and expanded again in Grayson Secret Origin #8
> In New 52, Nightwing said he was adopted way back in issue #1. It's a throwaway thought box that a lot of people forget because they're too busy angry at Nightwing #0 when it looked like Dick never stay at the Manor.
> 
> If Rebirth changed anything, I don't remember except for his mother being Romani.


In the Secret Origins issue, which appears in the Grayson Volume 1 trade, it's clarified Dick went into the foster care system but kept escaping to pursue his vendetta against Tony Zucco. He was remanded into Bruce's custody (likely because Bruce didn't want Dick to come to a sticky end, being a kid and all), where he linked Bruce and Batman together, becoming Batman's sidekick and developing the Robin identity.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, I forgot Secret Origins #1 where it retold the New 52 origin up to one year later, but the last New 52 origin was the Grayson one.




> In the Secret Origins issue, which appears in the Grayson Volume 1 trade, it's clarified Dick went into the foster care system but kept escaping to pursue his vendetta against Tony Zucco. He was remanded into Bruce's custody (likely because Bruce didn't want Dick to come to a sticky end, being a kid and all), where he linked Bruce and Batman together, becoming Batman's sidekick and developing the Robin identity.


Yeah that's pretty much the same as the older New 52 one

----------


## jbmasta

> Oh, I forgot Secret Origins #1 where it retold the New 52 origin up to one year later, but the last New 52 origin was the Grayson one.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's pretty much the same as the older New 52 one


The Grayson Secret Origins was basically exposition on Dick's background, presumably for people introduced to the character through Grayson. It was published between issue #5 and Annual #1, new readers would have had time to warm to Dick as a character. It also shows how he joined Spyral, where Nightwing ended with that being the plan and Grayson starting with Dick already in Spyral.

----------


## oasis1313

It's actually pretty confusing.  When DC has conflicting "what is canon these days?" issues due to their own SLOPPINESS, they tend to cherry-out of the same bowl.  Devin Grayson's bit that Dick is some pseudo-person-of-color sticks like glue, but her issue of Gotham Knights with formal adoption with signing paperwork, etc, "never happened."  If I didn't like Dick Grayson so gosh-darn much, I wouldn't bother with this crap.

----------


## Godlike13

Does it really matter though.

----------


## oasis1313

> Does it really matter though.


Yes, because Dick Grayson and what happens to ans with him does matter.

----------


## Godlike13

But it effects nothing.

----------


## Frontier

I think Brenton Thwaites has got the look down:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think Brenton Thwaites has got the look down:


i cant believe how young he looks he is perfect to play a comic book chracter not allowed to age

----------


## RedQueen

That is some very good casting. Looks the part. If only they could do something about Starfire's wig.

----------


## SpiderWing20

Anyone else thinks Diego Tinoco would be a great Dick Grayson

----------


## Armor of God

Babs will be in Nightwing 46 out July.http://https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy/status/984500573209677824?s=20

I think every creative team on both Batgirl and Nightwing books have acknowledged this pair.
Strange to see some people thinking its dead.

----------


## oasis1313

> That is some very good casting. Looks the part. If only they could do something about Starfire's wig.


Looks the part?  That guy on the YouTube fan-movies is a better fit for the role.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #44 variant cover by Romita Jr.

----------


## oasis1313

Neon Six-Pack.  I'm impressed.

----------


## Alycat

> Babs will be in Nightwing 46 out July.http://https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy/status/984500573209677824?s=20
> 
> I think every creative team on both Batgirl and Nightwing books have acknowledged this pair.
> Strange to see some people thinking its dead.


And Starfire gets jack despite being the one in all other media.  I don't get it.

----------


## The World

> Nightwing #44 variant cover by Romita Jr.


That's actually really good looking.

----------


## Moonwix

> Babs will be in Nightwing 46 out July.http://https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy/status/984500573209677824?s=20
> 
> I think every creative team on both Batgirl and Nightwing books have acknowledged this pair.
> Strange to see some people thinking its dead.


Not strange really, that people think it's dead, it's because Dick and Barbara have not actually been a couple since 2007 (That's 11 years), and DC in general, have not shown any interest in promoting the pairing outside the comics. They are now featured only in other universe stories as a couple  just like Dick/Kory.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not strange really, that people think it's dead, it's because Dick and Barbara have not actually been a couple since 2007 (That's 11 years), and DC in general, have not shown any interest in promoting the pairing outside the comics. They are now featured only in other universe stories as a couple  just like Dick/Kory.


If they get featured enough in television or movies, DC might change its mind.  After all, a lot of kids who are reading comics now weren't even alive 11 years ago to remember them.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick/Babs is an discarded relationship in media and the Batgirl/Nightwing Movie + TV show may push it

----------


## TheCape

> Babs will be in Nightwing 46 out July.http://https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy/status/984500573209677824?s=20
> 
> I think every creative team on both Batgirl and Nightwing books have acknowledged this pair.
> Strange to see some people thinking its dead.


It has been on "ship tease" territory since 2006, i doubt that DC would ever abandon the idea, unless that they find some bold new direction that get him away from the batfamily and suceed.

----------


## Restingvoice

> And Starfire gets jack despite being the one in all other media.  I don't get it.


The story is about cyber crime, which is Barbara's territory.
Also, Starfire will be off planet soon in No Justice and Odyssey, so you probably won't get to see them together for a while.

----------


## Rac7d*

> And Starfire gets jack despite being the one in all other media.  I don't get it.


all other media including?

----------


## Aioros22

> That's actually really good looking.


It is but the right arm is totally off proportion considering the perspective.

----------


## Alycat

> all other media including?


I mean its mostly Titans stuff, like the animated movies and probably the upcoming show, but DickBabs wasn't even a thing in the Arkham games, although they dated a little in the comics parts of it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean its mostly Titans stuff, like the animated movies and probably the upcoming show, but DickBabs wasn't even a thing in the Arkham games, although they dated a little in the comics parts of it.


yeah they decided to let tim date babs who would have been his babysitter considering is  follows lore from the animated series

----------


## Alycat

> yeah they decided to let tim date babs who would have been his babysitter considering is  follows lore from the animated series


Wait what lore does it follow from the animated series? Or am I misunderstanding you?

----------


## oasis1313

> yeah they decided to let tim date babs who would have been his babysitter considering is  follows lore from the animated series


Tim dating Babs?  Isn't he still jailbait for someone her age?

----------


## Vinsanity

> Tim dating Babs?  Isn't he still jailbait for someone her age?


Different universies, different ages I guess

----------


## jbmasta

Let’s say NightGirl (Dick and Barbara) and DickFire (Dick and Kory) are put to rest, who would you reckon editorial would want to set Dick up with?

----------


## Vinsanity

> Let’s say NightGirl (Dick and Barbara) and DickFire (Dick and Kory) are put to rest, who would you reckon editorial would want to set Dick up with?


Random civilian for like a run and then she breaks up with him.

----------


## jbmasta

> Random civilian for like a run and then she breaks up with him.


The problem comes with the seeming inability for Dick to assemble and maintain his own supporting cast for more than one creative team, based on what direction DC editorial decides for the title. Nightwing Rebirth only had two arcs linking back to the Grayson days (both penned by the Grayson co-writer), and the first one was the first Rebirth arc that also retired the Owls. The nostalgia trips haven't proven to be a hit, as Titans has been a huge mess and readers seem more interested in the non-Bludhaven issues. Seeley did an admirable job with Shawn (an effective approach with the time lapse issue), but that ship had to sink to facilitate the Dick/Barbara tease that never seems to evolve beyond that anymore.

That there's no stable creative team for the title in the near future is worrying.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim dating Babs?  Isn't he still jailbait for someone her age?


Thats hard to tell when it comes to the Arkhamverse. 
Tim's origin story wasn't published in that continuity and his age was never clearly revealed afaik. But he is shown to be school teacher in one of the comics and it is also schown that Barbara was reading some post or tweet of him in her origin story, so he might be a lot older in that universe opposed to the comics (him beeing a teacher could actually imply that he might be older than Jason).

And I'm anyway not really sure if there really is a clear timeline for that universe.

----------


## Ascended

> Lets say NightGirl (Dick and Barbara) and DickFire (Dick and Kory) are put to rest, who would you reckon editorial would want to set Dick up with?


Sadly, I'm with Vinsanity here. Editorial doesn't really seem to have a clear direction or goal for Dick right now. They're just roaming from one brief creative run to the next, and as long as they keep doing that, we'll never see any real long-form development in Nightwing, including a love interest.

I think we'll be waiting for real consistency until a writer comes along who actively wants the book and wants to stay with it, who DC is able and willing to leave on the title for a few years.

----------


## WonderNight

I just read a little of steph's batgirl and man I miss spyral so much! just so weird and fun with with a huge sandbox.

----------


## Aioros22

> yeah they decided to let tim date babs who would have been his babysitter considering is  follows lore from the animated series


Arkham Verse Tim is simply a good deal older than his comic counterpart so he would never be jailbait to Barbara.

I never read them claming their verse followed on the animated lore in any especific meaning either, any source?

----------


## Restingvoice

https://www.cbr.com/weird-facts-nightwing-body/

My compliment to the writer for not going for the obvious

----------


## byrd156

> Nightwing #44 variant cover by Romita Jr.


Damn Dick looks very intimidating.

----------


## Ascended

> Damn Dick looks very intimidating.


I love the variety you can get out of Nightwing. He can be the brooding, dark vigilante who makes criminals pee their pants, or he can be the perfectly nice boy next door, and none of it feels out of character for him. I think it works really nicely with his background as a performer; he becomes whatever his audience needs him to be. It's an interesting trait that opens a lot of doors for stories, and it makes Dick a very flexible character. I mean, he can do "bright and optimistic" in a way Batman never could (not since the days of Adam West anyway) but he can also go pretty dark and brutal in a way you'd never let Superman. It's a pretty wide range to work with.

Maybe thats part of the problem? Maybe writers are too accustomed to having a narrow set of personality traits and character quirks, and Dick's not pigeon-holed into one specific archetype like so many other comic characters are. Perhaps writers struggle to figure out where on the spectrum Nightwing falls, without realizing that the entire spectrum is his playground?

----------


## Pohzee

Here's an interview with Percy from C2E2
https://graphicpolicy.com/2018/04/15...enjamin-percy/

Here's the most interesting part of the interview in my opinion:



> *GP: Kind of like a Bond cold open. Speaking of James Bond, which you wrote a little bit for Dynamite, are you bringing any kind of spy elements to Nightwing?*
> 
> BP: We’re starting off in Bludhaven, but the story is not staying there. *Arc after arc, it’s getting bigger and bigger.*


Percy seems to plan to stick around for longer than this arc, and he also plans to build out from Blüdhaven.

Another thing that encourages me is that he specifically mentions Grayson when probed about influences. They ask about Seeley and Humphries's runs, and he mentions King.

----------


## Godlike13

It'll be interesting to see how this tech-laced gentrification meshes with the gambling side of Bludhaven. I really don't want to see the return of the drab and gritty Bludhaven.

----------


## Pohzee

> It'll be interesting to see how this tech-laced gentrification meshes with the gambling side of Bludhaven. I really don't want to see the return of the drab and gritty Bludhaven.


Well, here what he had to say about Blüdhaven:



> Right now, Bill Gates is funneling 80 million dollars into a plot of land in Arizona to create a smart city. Right now, off the shore of China, they’re building islands. They’re expanding their country and building these “smart islands”.
> 
> I’m taking this real world situation and putting it in Bludhaven, a city that has always been in need of rehab. So, a tech mogul has moved there and is trying to rehabilitate the place. Something else might be going on beneath the surface of his intentions. Not only are buildings being demolished and neighborhoods rebuilt within a 5G network


So it doesn't really sound like it. It sounds more like he's running with the "drab and gritty Blüdhaven" that is constantly seeking a face lift. But this a Tech botox rather than Casino makeover.

Glad to read that he's not trying to capture his Green Arrow run. He really did not have a good grasp on political commentary. Here's to hoping he's better at tech ones 
(who am I kidding? :Frown: )

----------


## WonderNight

Man I really don't know about this techhaven, it doesn't fit nightwing character. I'm fine with it be a story arc but the Atlantic city bludhaven fit's and plays to dick's character better, it's a fun, social, sexy and energetic setting. It's perfect for a young pretty boy.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Honestly how could anything be considered right for Nightwing? That Casino Haven through this run has been equal to Nightwing leading the Justice League where it looks nicely but there is no real story potential. Nothing innovative has been done with the Casino but continue job hopping and interchangeable cast.

----------


## WonderNight

Speaking of bludhaven.. I know some don't feel that dick has a personal enough reason 2 be in bludhaven. So I'm just going to throw this out there, what we being grayson back in nightwing? What I mean is what if Kathy Kane in bludhaven rebuilding herself back up so she can't revenge against nightwing and spyral . Nightwing would what to stop her and her global reach  from a new global espionage organization with bludhaven as it hub/heart? She could the be the top fish controlling bludhaven top down with lady Vic as the muscle . Blockbuster would be the mid card friend/enemy of both nightwing and Kathy who,s more about controlling the streets of bludhaven, tiger shark  could control bludhaven's ports. What are you guys thoughts?

----------


## Godlike13

The casinos give Bludhaven a unique look, and have been used heavily throughout the series so far. They can’t exactly just disappear from the city at this point in the series. They have to at least attempt some consistency here. Or at least you think they would.

----------


## The World

He's kind of speaking my language about what he wants to do with bludhaven. Keep the Casino aspect but with a Cyber Punk look and feel. 

Kind of getting hype for this run.

----------


## Badou

Don't know what to think of the premise. I get the feeling that Dick will probably be shown to not be very computer savvy or tech aware like some creators tend to write him as and that is why Batgirl is going to come in. I'm fine with Dick not being a super tech genius, there are plenty of them running around the DCU, but he should be fairly knowledgeable about computers still. Hopefully I am wrong and he won't be shown to be a dunce with computers or something. It doesn't really make any sense for a modern hero like him to be like that given he was trained by Batman and even became Batman in modern continuity.

----------


## RedQueen

Yeah everyone is an instahacker nowadays, so Dick not being some technological, intellectual prodigy is a rarity. Not saying he's dumb or technologically incapable in the slightest, I definitely think he is very very intelligent and it comes out in different ways, and I definitely he is tech capable and has certain degree of intellectual prowess, but I don't think hacking virtual reality seems like something within his scope so bringing in Babs makes sense. 

I'm excited to see how Percy progresses the arc in Bludhaven. Bludhaven seems just like Gotham jr so giving it a bit more world building would be good and I think expanding on Dick's everyday life would be good for the character beyond the Parker luck stuff.

----------


## Drako

preview of Nightwing #43 

http://www.comicsbeat.com/exclusive-...lix-and-chill/

----------


## CPSparkles

Nightwing

----------


## Ascended

> Speaking of bludhaven.. I know some don't feel that dick has a personal enough reason 2 be in bludhaven. So I'm just going to throw this out there, what we being grayson back in nightwing? What I mean is what if Kathy Kane in bludhaven rebuilding herself back up so she can't revenge against nightwing and spyral . Nightwing would what to stop her and her global reach  from a new global espionage organization with bludhaven as it hub/heart? She could the be the top fish controlling bludhaven top down with lady Vic as the muscle . Blockbuster would be the mid card friend/enemy of both nightwing and Kathy who,s more about controlling the streets of bludhaven, tiger shark  could control bludhaven's ports. What are you guys thoughts?


I'm all for making Nightwing the super-spy of the DCU, and using Spyral as his arch-nemesis in the intelligence community works for me (that, or have him take control of Spyral itself) but if you put the big bad in the same city, there isn't a ton of reason for Nightwing to do any globe-trotting. He'd probably be better off trying to stop Spyral by cutting off its head in Bludhaven than chasing their plots across the world.

So I'd put Kane somewhere else, probably in Europe to really lean into that James Bond super-spy vibe. Bludhaven can be Dick's hometown and his safe haven (you don't need strong ties to move to a new city or start putting roots down) but playing the spy game should be a global adventure.

----------


## Drako

BATMAN #51
written by TOM KING
art and cover by LEE WEEKS
variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL
The honeymoon's over for Bruce Wayne as Gotham City's most prominent citizen gets selected for jury duty in a chilling court case involving Mr. Freeze! Freeze claims the charges should be dismissed because Batman used excessive force; cue the outrage and media circus. While doing his civic duty, Wayne's forced to take a hard look at the Dark Knight's methods. And hey…what is Dick Grayson doing running around the city dressed as Batman?



NIGHTWING #46
written by BENJAMIN PERCY
art by CHRISTOPHER MOONEYHAM
cover by MIKE PERKINS
variant cover by JOHN ROMITA JR.
A new high-tech corporation setting up shop in Blüdhaven claims to be the cure for what ails the crumbling city. But Nightwing learns it's a very hostile takeover when he runs afoul of their metahuman operative, a digital phantom impervious to physical attack. Luckily, Nightwing has his very own I.T. backup: Batgirl! But can the two work together after their meeting in BATGIRL #25, also in stores this month?

BATGIRL #25
written by MARGUERITE BENNETT, MAIRGHREAD SCOTT and PAUL DINI
art by DAN PANOSIAN, PAUL PELLETIER and EMANUELA LUPACCHINO
cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
variant cover by JOSHUA MIDDLETON
On her return to Gotham City, family matters force Barbara to confront her complicated relationship with Dick Grayson. But does Dick have time for a heart-to-heart while subbing as Batman when Bruce Wayne is out of action?
This extra-sized anniversary issue also offers a look at the next arc of the series by Mairghread Scott and Paul Pelletier as the monstrous villain Grotesque murders wealthy art owners and defiles their bodies to create his own "art."
And since this is the issue that keeps on giving, also look for a special backup story by Harley Quinn co-creator Paul Dini and artist Emanuela Lupacchino.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, ya Dick/Babs is dead...

----------


## Badou

> Speaking of bludhaven.. I know some don't feel that dick has a personal enough reason 2 be in bludhaven. So I'm just going to throw this out there, what we being grayson back in nightwing? What I mean is what if Kathy Kane in bludhaven rebuilding herself back up so she can't revenge against nightwing and spyral . Nightwing would what to stop her and her global reach  from a new global espionage organization with bludhaven as it hub/heart? She could the be the top fish controlling bludhaven top down with lady Vic as the muscle . Blockbuster would be the mid card friend/enemy of both nightwing and Kathy who,s more about controlling the streets of bludhaven, tiger shark  could control bludhaven's ports. What are you guys thoughts?


After the awful twist with Kathy who turned into a huge disappointment in the end I don't know if I would want her back. I'm sort of on the fence about it. I loved her inclusion earlier in the series and how it tied back to INC. She felt like she had some weight and importance to her, but it sort of all got squandered. Just don't really know.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya things with Kathy were rather dissapointing, but i guss i wouldn't hate if they tried again.

----------


## Alycat

Oh boy my favorite Dick things: Bludhaven and more DickBabs. What an exciting month! On the less sarcastic side, the preview for #43 looks fun.

----------


## yohyoi

> BATMAN #51
> written by TOM KING
> art and cover by LEE WEEKS
> variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL
> The honeymoon's over for Bruce Wayne as Gotham City's most prominent citizen gets selected for jury duty in a chilling court case involving Mr. Freeze! Freeze claims the charges should be dismissed because Batman used excessive force; cue the outrage and media circus. While doing his civic duty, Wayne's forced to take a hard look at the Dark Knight's methods. And hey…what is Dick Grayson doing running around the city dressed as Batman?
> 
> 
> 
> NIGHTWING #46
> ...


That's a lot of Dick. I'm gonna be broke. RIP my wallet.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm so gonna enjoy these stories you people won't  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Moonwix

These month's  solicits for Dick are disappointing. In a month that a lot of cool stuff is happening in the dcu  and nightwing is still in a team and solo series that goes nowhere and stalk in a boring ship tease with batgirl. Oh boy it's a hard time to be a nightwing fan.

----------


## Godlike13

It all does seem rather routine. Not that I’m against it all, I mean i do like Dick/Babs.

----------


## Armor of God

I'm honestly of the opinion that after Tec 1000 DC will merge Batgirl and Nightwing together in to one book.

----------


## Moonwix

> I'm honestly of the opinion that after Tec 1000 DC will merge Batgirl and Nightwing together in to one book.


Why would you think DC will do such a thing? When a hefty part of the nightwing fan base are not fans of the dick/babs ship. There is a reason why the relationship/ ship tease mainly happens in the batgirl books.

----------


## Armor of God

Just thought of it, no real reason tbh. Pretty sure King, Higgins, Seeley and Percy haven't written Batgirl.

----------


## Moonwix

> It all does seem rather routine. Not that I’m against it all, I mean i do like Dick/Babs.


Yes it is a routine now sadly. I have been particularly disappointed with the direction of nightwing solo series from the start,  but I do however, love his interactions with batman and the other robins, except Barbara that I find boring, their interaction is so predictable because of the ship tease that has been going on for years. 

The relationship is better as an elseworld story, like in n52 earth2. I enjoyed it there , it was free of the soap opera rubbish. It's would have been great if dc had  left it plationtic over the years and developed their friendship like Donna.

----------


## Moonwix

> Just thought of it, no real reason tbh. Pretty sure King, Higgins, Seeley and Percy haven't written Batgirl.


It hardly happens in nightwing. Any little nod to it, is to draw in batgirl fans.

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm honestly of the opinion that after Tec 1000 DC will merge Batgirl and Nightwing together in to one book.


God i hope not. Nothing say getting out of Batman' s shadow like merging solo with a batbook.

----------


## Armor of God

> God i hope not. Nothing say getting out of Batman' s shadow like merging solo with a batbook.


Well technically Nightwing is also a Batbook, has been since it was launched back in the late 90's.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well technically Nightwing is also a Batbook, has been since it was launched back in the late 90's.


Yeah I know, I'm talking about the theme of the concept and character.

----------


## Vinsanity

Hopefully they pair them up properly and we won't have the continuous well they or won't they

----------


## Badou

I don't mind Dick and Babs, but I really wish they weren't doing this again. I mean I get that in the New 52/Rebirth continuity Dick and Babs probably haven't dated, the timing always seems to be off or some other excuse, but I really would like a fresh romance with an established hero. 

Still, Percy did reestablish Green Arrow and Black Canary and put them back together. Maybe he will do the same with Babs and Dick here, but I think it will continue to be difficult because Babs is also a solo character and her writers will want to do their own stories going forward.

----------


## dropkickjake

So I fell off the horse mid seeley run. How was Humphries' run? Worth checking out? I'm a little skeptical of the techo-Haven... I liked the casino vibe if Bludhaven had to be a thing. 

For a brief second there, I was pretty hopeful that DC was doing something exciting with the character. Even in Seeley's run, it started to feel like the old problems were sneaking back in, and from what info I've seen, it seems to be going back into the same rut we're used to.


I wish that Dick and Babs could just be very flirty friends with loads of sexual tension and chemistry. Instead, they lack the chemistry and just have all these over dramatic define the relationship talks all the time.

----------


## Godlike13

> It hardly happens in nightwing. Any little nod to it, is to draw in batgirl fans.


Thats not true though. Its happens pretty much just as much in Nightwing.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Just thought of it, no real reason tbh. Pretty sure King, Higgins, Seeley and Percy haven't written Batgirl.


King gave them scenes in Grayson and Seeley write Batgirl in Nightwing. Pretty sure she guest started in Higgins run as well.

----------


## Armor of God

That's pretty much what I was saying. The other poster was trying to argue that Nightgirl ship was kept alive only by Babsgirl writers when pretty much every Dick writer has reciprocated the gesture.
If anything Dickfire was only mentioned by a Starfire writer.
So while hating on Nightgirl is fair the amount of ignorance and downplaying is baffling. Someone called it dead...wtf?

----------


## Rakiduam

> That's pretty much what I was saying. The other poster was trying to argue that Nightgirl ship was kept alive only by Babsgirl writers when pretty much every Dick writer has reciprocated the gesture.
> If anything Dickfire was only mentioned by a Starfire writer.
> So while hating on Nightgirl is fair the amount of ignorance and downplaying is baffling. Someone called it dead...wtf?


That they keep bringing it up doesn't mean it's not dead though, it's a moving corpus at this point ,getting rotten, stinking the whole place and going nowhere. A zombie ship.

Every now and then one "confront the complicated relationship" while the other is in a different place.

----------


## Armor of God

Then its undead LOL.

----------


## L.H.

> King gave them scenes in Grayson and Seeley write Batgirl in Nightwing. Pretty sure she guest started in Higgins run as well.


Yeah, she was in Higgins run, but only as a friend. In Grayson Doc. Netz said that she was the one he ever loved. 
I liked them together in Dixon run more than DickKory, but Devine Grayson ruined everything. If DC want to make that ship sail I'm fine, but make it a real relationship, not a "one day, perhaps" thing

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, a friend he was almost gonna run away with LoL.

----------


## Moonwix

> That's pretty much what I was saying. The other poster was trying to argue that Nightgirl ship was kept alive only by Babsgirl writers when pretty much every Dick writer has reciprocated the gesture.
> If anything Dickfire was only mentioned by a Starfire writer.
> So while hating on Nightgirl is fair the amount of ignorance and downplaying is baffling. Someone called it dead...wtf?


 My stance on the matter,  isn't of ignorance but merely of observation in his current solo series. I started reading Dick Grayson again since new52. Unless you followed his pre flashpoint series which I never did, it's not that obvious that dick/babs are a thing. Although, Huntress did featured more in grayson and nightwing as a love interest,. Dick and Barbara have being shown alot but has friends who are in the batfamily. 

 Although,  I would like to know what you define keeping alive a ship, because my understanding of actually keeping alive a ship, is to actual have them in a relationship as a couple  and none of that has happen in years. I am not trying to downplay anything, DC is doing that all on their own.

----------


## Armor of God

You're dealing with 2 characters that have theirvown books which is why you dont see a traditional coupling. The Bat/Cat marriage could well break the barriers for how couples can be in a relationship and still have their own books.
DC wants them to be a thing but they also operate under the traditional publishing model.

----------


## Mataza

> You're dealing with 2 characters that have theirvown books which is why you dont see a traditional coupling. The Bat/Cat marriage could well break the barriers for how couples can be in a relationship and still have their own books.


Isnt that what they are doing with Arthur and Mera?

----------


## yash

> You're dealing with 2 characters that have theirvown books which is why you dont see a traditional coupling. The Bat/Cat marriage could well break the barriers for how couples can be in a relationship and still have their own books.
> DC wants them to be a thing but they also operate under the traditional publishing model.


wait catwoman has her own book? Im pretty sure she does not, 
it's not so much that dc wants them to be a thing, it's just that bat office has been wanting to place nightwing firmly into batverse, which they have not done a good job of, nightwing was a titans character and in many ways he still is, they don't know how to give him a place in batverse all the while he doesn't outshine batman but at the same time he doesn't come off as diet cola batman
Regarding the ship, people like me don't say that ship is dead because we are not aware of writers acknowledging or even sometimes hinting at that ship, we say that ship is dead because nightwingxbatgirl does not work, nightwingxoracle works, Oracle actually can be a supporting character that adds new dynamic into nightwing's personal and vigilante life (dating someone that is disabled, world's best hacker and all that) batgirl adds nothing, hell you can't even make the argument that it's a popular ship that jumps the numbers because it really does not, there use to be a time when barbs was one of their better selling characters but she is no longer one of those, dick has been outselling her for last four years by a big margin, when barbs appears in his books it does not affect his numbers in any meaningful way, batgirl is too big of a character to be merely a support character that can be sidelined when story calls for it or when there is a bigger story to be told, but she is not unique enough to add something to nightwing nor is she this charcter that sets the charts on fire for it to be justifiable

----------


## Restingvoice

> wait catwoman has her own book? Im pretty sure she does not


It's coming out
CATWOMAN-1-Cover-Wedding-Dress.jpg

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> That's pretty much what I was saying. The other poster was trying to argue that Nightgirl ship was kept alive only by Babsgirl writers when pretty much every Dick writer has reciprocated the gesture.
> If anything *Dickfire* was only mentioned by a Starfire writer.
> So while hating on Nightgirl is fair the amount of ignorance and downplaying is baffling. Someone called it dead...wtf?


This is the best ship name ever lol. 

But yes, I agree overall. The ship isn't dead. Fans who dislike the ship say it's dead only say that because they don't like it. That's how shipping debates are in every fandom. 




> Yeah, she was in Higgins run, but only as a friend. In Grayson Doc. Netz said that she was the one he ever loved. 
> I liked them together in Dixon run more than DickKory, but Devine Grayson ruined everything. If DC want to make that ship sail I'm fine, but make it a real relationship, not a "one day, perhaps" thing


Still even as a friend, they play up their history as being exes and tease them too much to consider it dead. 




> My stance on the matter,  isn't of ignorance but merely of observation in his current solo series. I started reading Dick Grayson again since new52. Unless you followed his pre flashpoint series which I never did, it's not that obvious that dick/babs are a thing. Although, Huntress did featured more in grayson and nightwing as a love interest,. Dick and Barbara have being shown alot but has friends who are in the batfamily. 
> *
>  Although,  I would like to know what you define keeping alive a ship, because my understanding of actually keeping alive a ship, is to actual have them in a relationship as a couple  and none of that has happen in years.* I am not trying to downplay anything, DC is doing that all on their own.


That's not something that creators who want to string along fans and keep them coming back are inclined to do. They keep it alive by teasing. It's the same in _Buffy the Vampire Slayer_. She and Angel brok up in season 3, but every time one guest starred in the other's show we got a "maybe someday, if circumstances allow, we can be together." See his guest appearances in season 5 and season 7. That's keeping a ship alive. Hell, even in the absolutely atrocious Buffy comics they keep the ship alive despite all the stupid bullshit they threw at it in season 8, even if she appears to be with Spike now (bleh).

----------


## Godlike13

> Isnt that what they are doing with Arthur and Mera?


I think it’s like what they are doing with Batman and Catwoman. Meras book is a new spin off, and even has the same writer.

----------


## oasis1313

Married couples are a big minority in comics, that's for sure.  To me, it's more interesting to see a couple work out problems and build a life together, get through the pitfalls and come out stronger for it.  But that's probably too much work for today's comics writers.

----------


## RedQueen

> Married couples are a big minority in comics, that's for sure.  To me, it's more interesting to see a couple work out problems and build a life together, get through the pitfalls and come out stronger for it.  But that's probably too much work for today's comics writers.


It's why I like Arthur and Mera so much. They've had their differences and separations but Aquaman wouldn't be the same without Mera in it. Geoff Johns really sold me on them and I think it's tacky writing to split them up over trivial matters. Dick and Barbara are stuck in this eternal will they won't they limbo, and because of that them being friends is also somewhat complicated because it's always ship teasing usually. You can't see them just "be" so to speak.

----------


## Moonwix

> It's why I like Arthur and Mera so much. They've had their differences and separations but Aquaman wouldn't be the same without Mera in it. Geoff Johns really sold me on them and I think it's tacky writing to split them up over trivial matters. Dick and Barbara are stuck in this eternal will they won't they limbo, and because of that them being friends is also somewhat complicated because it's always ship teasing usually. You can't see them just "be" so to speak.


Unfortunately, that has made any stories or interaction between the two really boring at this point.

----------


## Armor of God

> wait catwoman has her own book? Im pretty sure she does not, 
> it's not so much that dc wants them to be a thing, it's just that bat office has been wanting to place nightwing firmly into batverse, which they have not done a good job of, nightwing was a titans character and in many ways he still is, they don't know how to give him a place in batverse all the while he doesn't outshine batman but at the same time he doesn't come off as diet cola batman
> Regarding the ship, people like me don't say that ship is dead because we are not aware of writers acknowledging or even sometimes hinting at that ship, we say that ship is dead because nightwingxbatgirl does not work, nightwingxoracle works, Oracle actually can be a supporting character that adds new dynamic into nightwing's personal and vigilante life (dating someone that is disabled, world's best hacker and all that) batgirl adds nothing, hell you can't even make the argument that it's a popular ship that jumps the numbers because it really does not, there use to be a time when barbs was one of their better selling characters but she is no longer one of those, dick has been outselling her for last four years by a big margin, when barbs appears in his books it does not affect his numbers in any meaningful way, batgirl is too big of a character to be merely a support character that can be sidelined when story calls for it or when there is a bigger story to be told, but she is not unique enough to add something to nightwing nor is she this charcter that sets the charts on fire for it to be justifiable


Catwoman will be getting her own book in July.
What you say is probably true, maybe Nightgirl vs Dickfire is really just a tug of war between offices but at this rate the Titans office really has no justification other than nostalgia. Atleast the Bat office tries to do something with Dick while the Titans is just about replaying the same stories from a generation ago. At the end of the day Dick has had solo books from the Bat office that go well over 250 issues. No Titans character from Dick's era comes close to boasting those numbers. I think not even combined.

----------


## Alycat

> Catwoman will be getting her own book in July.
> What you say is probably true, maybe Nightgirl vs Dickfire is really just a tug of war between offices but at this rate the Titans office really has no justification other than nostalgia. Atleast the Bat office tries to do something with Dick while the Titans is just about replaying the same stories from a generation ago. At the end of the day Dick has had solo books from the Bat office that go well over 250 issues. No Titans character from Dick's era comes close to boasting those numbers. I think not even combined.


Do they? The Bat office is just as bad at falling back into the same old mess. Look at where Dick is right now. Stuck in Bludhaven and playing tug a war with Babs. Again. Its just bland instead of being awful like the Titans books are.

----------


## Armor of God

> Do they? The Bat office is just as bad at falling back into the same old mess. Look at where Dick is right now. Stuck in Bludhaven and playing tug a war with Babs. Again. Its just bland instead of being awful like the Titans books are.


Bludhaven was gone for what? 14 years. Its just a basic default setting. Sure its mediocre but it also a safety net that prevents him from falling further.
And Dick does owe the original Bludhaven era for rescuing him from the downwards spiraling Titans franchise. Even today imagine how you'd feel if there was no Nightwing solo just current Titans.

----------


## jbmasta

> Bludhaven was gone for what? 14 years. Its just a basic default setting. Sure its mediocre but it also a safety net that prevents him from falling further.
> And Dick does owe the original Bludhaven era for rescuing him from the downwards spiraling Titans franchise. Even today imagine how you'd feel if there was no Nightwing solo just current Titans.


So does that mean in ten years time editorial will decide to bring back Spyral, in hopes in invigorating the kind of interest Grayson got?

----------


## TheCape

> So does that mean in ten years time editorial will decide to bring back Spyral, in hopes in invigorating the kind of interest Grayson got?


There is something called "nostalgia cycle"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Moonwix

> Catwoman will be getting her own book in July.
> What you say is probably true, maybe Nightgirl vs Dickfire is really just a tug of war between offices but at this rate the Titans office really has no justification other than nostalgia. Atleast the Bat office tries to do something with Dick while the Titans is just about replaying the same stories from a generation ago. At the end of the day Dick has had solo books from the Bat office that go well over 250 issues. No Titans character from Dick's era comes close to boasting those numbers. I think not even combined.


At this point there is no difference, fans are just has disappointed at the state of nightwing, has they are with the titans. They are both now just boring and stagnant.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans office seems like it purposely tries to make Nightwing look bad. The Bat office getting lazy with his solo is certainly not good, but it’s still far and away better then anything the Titans office has done with Dick in a very long time. I’ll take him hanging out with Babs and them trying again with Bludhaven over him getting purposely shit on and mocked. The Titans office has been flat out toxic towards Dick.
 Though don’t get me wrong, the Bat office being lazy is really not good either. Things do not look good when a character is in one office that seems like they have become lazy and directionless with him, and another that seems to want to punish him and tear him down.

----------


## Armor of God

The Bat office has been lazy for a long time now. I know DC You was polarizing but Bat office published unique books like Son of Batman, Midnighter, Grayson, Black Canary etc.
With Rebirth they kept the basic books that they knew would last a while and now they only care about Bat/Cat marriage. Doesn't help that the office has been without a head editor for a year now.

Here's hoping things pick up around or after Tec 1000.

----------


## yash

I personally like it when dick has short but really intense relationships that ends as amicably as superhero comics can allow which leaves both parties sad that it ended but not regret that it happened, i don't want the 'i love you' being thrown around though, the whole dickxshawn thing was so forced it made me cringe

----------


## yash

I think it's easy for batoffice to get lazy with nightwing, it's not like NW is a priority character for dceu or dcu for that matter and on top of that it sells good enough even without a consistent push or consistence in quality, so they focus their time on characters that they do wanna push

----------


## oasis1313

> I think it's easy for batoffice to get lazy with nightwing, it's not like NW is a priority character for dceu or dcu for that matter and on top of that it sells good enough even without a consistent push or consistence in quality, so they focus their time on characters that they do wanna push


Calling Horper Raw!

----------


## yash

> Calling Horper Raw!


 don't even get me started on that, once that particular train picked up steam they just blew their load all over it lol

----------


## Aahz

> I think it's easy for batoffice to get lazy with nightwing, it's not like NW is a priority character for dceu or dcu for that matter and on top of that it sells good enough even without a consistent push or consistence in quality, so they focus their time on characters that they do wanna push


Actually I would claim that Dick gets quite consistently pushed, he is at least quite regularly included in the bigger events or crossovers.

Of course it can be always more, but in comparison with the rest of the Batfamily (with exception of maybe Damian and Kate) it is not so bad.

And when I read the July solits correctly he will apparently even get another round of being Batman after the wedding.

----------


## WonderNight

not all of the batfam has the same amount of fans, sales and status so way would tha get pushed equally? us dick fans get upset sometimes because based of his fanbase, sales, status and history the only characters that should get pushed more are the Trinity and maybe Flash and Harley. not Cyborg or Aquaman!

----------


## Aahz

> not all of the batfam has the same amount of fans, sales and status so way would tha get pushed equally? us dick fans get upset sometimes because based of his fanbase, sales, status and history the only characters that should get pushed more are the Trinity and maybe Flash and Harley. not Cyborg or Aquaman!


And? Dick gets pushed, maybe he is not with the biggest priority at the moment, but quite constantly.

----------


## Rac7d*

still pissed at ROY

----------


## yash

> Actually I would claim that Dick gets quite consistently pushed, he is at least quite regularly included in the bigger events or crossovers.
> 
> Of course it can be always more, but in comparison with the rest of the Batfamily (with exception of maybe Damian and Kate) it is not so bad.
> 
> And when I read the July solits correctly he will apparently even get another round of being Batman after the wedding.


 you and i have different definitions of a push then, just being included into big events is not a push, superman for a long time became a punching bag in Jl, whenever they had to sell the strength of someone it was supes who took it on the chin, supes did not gain any new readers from it, he was just a plot device instead of the driving force behind the plot, that is dick's role for the most part, he gets punched by the new badass martial artist, he's there to be clueless so the new ultra genius hacker/techguy/whatever gets to talk smart, he does not gain any new readers because of it beyond the two issues that are part of the crossover, push is hal jordan and blackest night, push is not dick grayson and robin war where he gets puched by the newest rookie robin in his own book which ends with him becoming a member of owls because he could not save the day

----------


## Aahz

> you and i have different definitions of a push then, just being included into big events is not a push, superman for a long time became a punching bag in Jl, whenever they had to sell the strength of someone it was supes who took it on the chin, supes did not gain any new readers from it, he was just a plot device instead of the driving force behind the plot, that is dick's role for the most part, he gets punched by the new badass martial artist, he's there to be clueless so the new ultra genius hacker/techguy/whatever gets to talk smart, he does not gain any new readers because of it beyond the two issues that are part of the crossover, push is hal jordan and blackest night, push is not dick grayson and robin war where he gets puched by the newest rookie robin in his own book which ends with him becoming a member of owls because he could not save the day


Dick is not a new character, so they don't need to showcase him like the new characters.

And he gets also appearances where he can shine (the pre rebirth Justice League #51(?) for example).

In Robin Wars he was still one of the characters who looked best in the end, the whole event was basically used to set up the first storyarcs of Nightwing, and that despite the fact that this event was actually supposed to be about the War-Kids (who got apart from Duke completely sidelined) and Damian.

And the way Batoffice is pushing their new characters at expense of the older ones is bad, but other characters had imo way more to suffer under this than Dick.

----------


## yash

> Dick is not a new character, so they don't need to showcase him like the new characters.
> 
> And he gets also appearances where he can shine (the pre rebirth Justice League #51(?) for example).
> 
> In Robin Wars he was still one of the characters who looked best in the end, the whole event was basically used to set up the first storyarcs of Nightwing, and that despite the fact that this event was actually supposed to be about the War-Kids (who got apart from Duke completely sidelined) and Damian.
> 
> And the way Batoffice is pushing their new characters at expense of the older ones is bad, but other characters had imo way more to suffer under this than Dick.


 so he is not a new character therefore he is not going to be showcased.... why is he there exactly then? he's not this obscure character that benefits from more visibility to the fans of batverse even if it was meaningless, he does not get the major bump in sales beyond the crossover issues, something like that works for batwoman,dick is past that at this point

But that was robin and not NW, robin is a bigger property then NW, dc has never had problems with robin, they certainly wanted to off NW

I don't even know what to tell you if that is how you feel, beyond trolling the whole family(which was great) he was getting punched around, jason did it, duke did it and damian did it and Barbra called him a disappointment during that whole event

And this i don't get even more, save for maybe tim you can't really make that argument for anyone, tim kept losing everything that made him unique because everyone around him kept getting propt up in everything he used to be good at but even then it's not like he was not proped up as well, he went from a guy that was aware that he was not a natural like his counterparts to a guy that is an Olympic level athlete who founded teen titans who was told by shiva that he has the potential to be the very best

Fact is pre 52 dick could firmly beat the likes of jason and canary, post 52 jason can beat the likes of midnighter (why is any member of family not named batman capable of beating midnighter i have no idea) so yeah that argument does not make sense

----------


## Aahz

> so he is not a new character therefore he is not going to be showcased.... why is he there exactly then? he's not this obscure character that benefits from more visibility to the fans of batverse even if it was meaningless, he does not get the major bump in sales beyond the crossover issues, something like that works for batwoman,dick is past that at this point


What I mean that you showcase a new character diffrently than one that is arround for almost 80 years. When a character is new the writers tend to very aggressively showcase how awesome they are, when they pop up somewhere, if they would constantly doing that with their established characters that would become really annoying really quickly.





> I don't even know what to tell you if that is how you feel, beyond trolling the whole family(which was greate) he was getting punched around, jason did it, duke did it and damian did it and Barbra called him a disappointment during that whole event


And? Jason and Tim didn't really do much at all in Robin War and got one shottet in the end by Damian.




> And this i don't get even more, save for maybe tim you can't really make that argument for anyone, tim kept losing everything that made him unique while everyone around him kept getting propt up in everything he used to be good at but even then it's not like he was not proped up as well, he went from a guy that was aware that he was not a natural like his counterparts to a guy that is an Olympic level athlete who founded teen titans who was told by shiva that he has the potential to be the very best


Seriously what was the last time Barbara or Jason had a major role in any bigger story line (or were even included in Barbara's case).




> Fact is pre 52 dick could firmly beat the likes of jason and canary, post 52 jason can beat the likes of midnighter (why is any member of family not named batman capable of beating midnighter i have no idea) so yeah that argument does not make sense


Jason has never fought against Midnighter post flashpoint.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Harper Row is an example of pushing a character over a more established one and that character eventually fading into obscurity. All the rankings for best martial artist feature character who struggle to stay in continuity, COIE featured Pariah and other obscure characters and they are now in limbo. The one event that featured Bludhaven just Destroyed the city with a nuke and everything that went on from the Battle Of Bludhaven To Final Crisis has nothing to do with Nightwing who survived death because Superboy became a sacrificial lamb. Dick will never be allowed to lead a Bludhaven Event even if it does not move outside his book. Batman has main book + Tec + team + Elseworlds yet somehow is still seen as a Threat if he gets pushed in an event. Dick has done well but that final step will always be denied to him over the shiny new object. The one time he almost got what he deserved was in ‘91 but the writer and artist left for Marvel.

----------


## yash

> What I mean that you showcase a new character diffrently than one that is arround for almost 80 years. When a character is new the writers tend to very aggressively showcase how awesome they are, when they pop up somewhere, if they would constantly doing that with their established characters that would become really annoying really quickly.
> 
> 
> And? Jason and Tim didn't really do much at all in Robin War and got one shottet in the end by Damian.
> 
> Seriously what was the last time Barbara or Jason had a major role in any bigger story line (or were even included in Barbara's case).
> 
> Jason has never fought against Midnighter post flashpoint.


 which is why i asked what is the point? He is not there for writers to make him look good, he's there to make others look good

You said it yourself, it was not their story

You tell me, i have not been keeping up with dc post rebirth save for nightwing, but you can't say they are not pushed, forget about games and cartoon shows these two characters have a book (barbs has two infact) despite the fact that they have piss poor sales, if NW was not a commercial success i doubt we would have a NW book, they wanted to off him for good because he did not fit into the dc they wanted to present, he would have become a tec character and written the way tynion belives he should be (greatest supporting character- his words)

Deathstroke does not have to face defacer for me to know he would win, his feats and toys speak for themselves

----------


## Armor of God

I know there's apprehension over a lack of direction but DC really is going all in by having different writers define Bludhaven. Seeley, Humphries and next Percy, they're clearly working/worked as hard as possible and I think they're succeeding.

Similarly there has also been an emphasis on creating good villains and defining Dick's rogues gallery.
Raptor, Judge, Percy's upcoming villain, the revamps of Blockbuster and Deathwing, using some of the Dixon era rogues as reforming villains, utilization of Dickbats era baddies like Pyg and next up Flamingo.

Its certainly the best era for Bludhaven and Nightwing villains.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah, the good ol` Dick stroke argument again. 

Here`s what some don`t get. He does get pushed. That`s what spothlights are for. He`s there and a bit all over the place. More doors will open for him than nearly anyone else in the franchise. I don`t think there`s much to debate against the notion. 

What you actually mean is, he`s been lacking _direction_.

----------


## yash

> Ah, the good ol` Dick stroke argument again. 
> 
> Here`s what some don`t get. He does get pushed. That`s what spothlights are for. He`s there and a bit all over the place. More doors will open for him than nearly anyone else in the franchise. I don`t think there`s much to debate against the notion. 
> 
> What you actually mean is, he`s been lacking _direction_.


 the fuck is a dickstroke argument?

Its like saying spidey is getting pushed because he became an avenger even though he is just there because everyone around him are above his power level, it doesn't do shit for spidey that guy already has a dedicated fanbase, he's their best selling character, the people who are not reading spidey will not start reading spidey because they liked the jokes he cracked in the background and reacted funny while getting his ass kicked, now if someone like ms marvel was made an avenger then that is a push, she is(was) obsecure and being introduced to a newer wider audience that might not be familiar with captain marvel or inhumans for that matter
NW certainly is not as big as spidey but he's only getting outsold by trinity flash and hal, he has a big enough fanbase that just being there in a batevent(an audience that is already familiar with him) and getting his dental work redone by the new badass on the block cannot be considered a push, it's like saying superman was getting pushed when he was appearing in aquaman and getting a beating and a tongue lashing from arthur or when he was getting his ass beat in justice league to sell how atlantians are super strong, supes was not getting pushed, he was just being used to establish plot points regarding power levels

----------


## oasis1313

I just don't think the interest is there as far as DC is concerned; I don't think the company creative and editorial people want to do that much work.  How many times have they coughed up some "new line" of characters, only to have them all fail--like the Charlton characters.  I think people will go along with almost anything--as long as it's well-done.  "Fan-favorite Harper Row" failed because she really WASN'T a fan-favorite, and no amount of proclaiming her the "perfect" whatever didn't make her that in the customers' eyes.

----------


## Godlike13

Just because he is in more stuff then say Jason doesn't mean he gets appropriately pushed in comics. The pushes Dick does get are usually half assed, hijacked, or not kind. And also usually for every half assed push he's gets buried somewhere else. Like in Titans for example. Compared to other characters that they wanted to sell bi-monthlies with Dick did not get pushed comparably at all. Out of comics is a different story though. Ya his movie is backed logged, by they want to do one enough to sign a director, and on top of that he has Titans and YJ coming. Making how things currently are with Dick in comics even more perplexing. 

But not being pushed right now is not even his biggest problem. They seem to be struggling to keep together what he already has and can't even afford him basic protection, let alone push him.

----------


## oasis1313

> Just because he is in more stuff then say Jason doesn't mean he gets appropriately pushed in comics. The pushes Dick does get are usually half assed, hijacked, or not kind. And also usually for every half assed push he's gets buried somewhere else. Like in Titans for example. Compared to other characters that they wanted to sell bi-monthlies with Dick did not get pushed comparably at all. Out of comics is a different story though. Ya his movie is backed logged, by they want to do one enough to sign a director, and on top of that he has Titans and YJ coming. Making how things currently are with Dick in comics even more perplexing. 
> 
> But not being pushed right now is not even his biggest problem. They seem to be struggling to keep together what he already has and can't even afford him basic protection, let alone push him.


In my humble opinion:  A-P-A-T-H-Y.  There's nobody at DC who has Dick's back.  Every new Green Lantern that comes along is immediately pushed to A-List status while Tim, Duke, and Harper have been favored over Dick.

----------


## TheCape

> In my humble opinion:  A-P-A-T-H-Y.  There's nobody at DC who has Dick's back.  Every new Green Lantern that comes along is immediately pushed to A-List status while Tim, Duke, and Harper have been favored over Dick.


I wonder if is more of case of DC wanting to return into the Pre-Crisis Batfamily (the 70s one specifically), wich only were Batman, Robin, Batgirl and Alfred. Nightwing, Red Hood and Red Robin don't really fit into that idea, so they are just keep around because of their fanbases. Duke and Harper were pushed because Snyder, but where they are now?, Harper is on limbo and Duke is getting into Outsiders. But well that's just the cynical on me. That being said, Dick has the gurantee of a solo series from now until the end of times and the quality isn't really, at least they seem more comitted this time with making Bludhaven work, so really isn't in a bad position, well except on Titans, but that franchise problems are another business entirely.

----------


## Badou

I wouldn't say that Dick gets "pushed" exactly and more that he just gets used, at least since the New 52. Obviously he had a major push pre-New 52. When I think of a character getting pushed they are generally the focus of something that they weren't before. Like they are in something because DC wants to raise the profile of this character. I think the closest you can say is when he got used in Forever Evil. Since his identity being exposed to the world was positioned as a major plot point in the main event book, but of course it sort of got ignored by Johns very quickly and everyone and just contained it in Dick's solo. So it didn't really lead to a bigger exposure for the character. Then Higgins' New Order mini series I would say is better example as it was a mini series that focused on Dick which he doesn't generally get. He usually is just a small supporting character in these stories. Those two things are the only ones that stand out to me since the New 52. 

I mean it is more than a lot of characters, but it is less than the characters Dick sells around and especially characters that have similar amounts of history. If that makes sense.

----------


## yash

> I know there's apprehension over a lack of direction but DC really is going all in by having different writers define Bludhaven. Seeley, Humphries and next Percy, they're clearly working/worked as hard as possible and I think they're succeeding.
> 
> Similarly there has also been an emphasis on creating good villains and defining Dick's rogues gallery.
> Raptor, Judge, Percy's upcoming villain, the revamps of Blockbuster and Deathwing, using some of the Dixon era rogues as reforming villains, utilization of Dickbats era baddies like Pyg and next up Flamingo.
> 
> Its certainly the best era for Bludhaven and Nightwing villains.


 dick/nightwing has become sort of this testing ground for dc to find out if the writer and artist is any good and if the answer is yes then they move them to a bigger project, king and janin got a batman out it, seeley was first chosen for suicide squad during grayson before he was dropped, but now he has green lanterns and humphries got an HQ out of it,

----------


## Aahz

> You tell me, i have not been keeping up with dc post rebirth save for nightwing, but you can't say they are not pushed, forget about games and cartoon shows these two characters have a book (barbs has two infact) despite the fact that they have piss poor sales, if NW was not a commercial success i doubt we would have a NW book, they wanted to off him for good because he did not fit into the dc they wanted to present, he would have become a tec character and written the way tynion belives he should be (greatest supporting character- his words)


There is no need for to keep up post rebirth since, since you have to go back much further. In Jason's case imo at least to Batman Inc. (and even that wasn't really a major role), the post rebirth the closest  would be the "DARK DESTINY" story arc in Trinity, but that wasn't particularly big and Jason was possessed by demon for the majority of the story.

In Barbara's case you had probably to go back before flashpoint.

And the thing is Barbara may have 2 books, but they are currently so much at the fringe of what is going on, they could as well be elseworld stories. Opposed to Dicks books that are actually part of events.

----------


## Godlike13

DC has dropped the ball with Babs in Rebirth.

----------


## yash

> DC has dropped the ball with Babs in Rebirth.


 what can be done to improve her situation that does not involve getting back with NW?

----------


## Godlike13

Involve her in more general stuff again for a start. Not just with Nightwing. I mean she could have been put her on one of the new JL teams or something. And its probably time to come up with something to inject new life into her book. They let Batgirl fall to way side with Rebirth and have just kind of left her lay.

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay, I've been reading the posts and I need clarification. 
When you say push, do you mean pushed commercially, as in the characters are featured in many books and events so people would know about them, or pushed within the story, as in they are given a chance to showcase their ability to shine, to look better than everyone else?
Sometimes those two overlap, sometimes they don't. Forever evil, for example, a commercial feature for Dick but not an ability showcase. 
Ideally, we want both. So now that we've defined those, which characters got it best, worst, and not satisfying enough?

----------


## WonderNight

dose it matter?. dick should get pushed based of his own merit, not based of jason, tim and babs.

It's of the reasons im really starting to not like a big batfam! It's becoming one big crab bucket.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> I know there's apprehension over a lack of direction but DC really is going all in by having different writers define Bludhaven. Seeley, Humphries and next Percy, they're clearly working/worked as hard as possible and I think they're succeeding.
> 
> Similarly there has also been an emphasis on creating good villains and defining Dick's rogues gallery.
> Raptor, Judge, Percy's upcoming villain, the revamps of Blockbuster and Deathwing, using some of the Dixon era rogues as reforming villains, utilization of Dickbats era baddies like Pyg and next up Flamingo.
> 
> Its certainly the best era for Bludhaven and Nightwing villains.


I feel Nightwing lacks consistency. I just want a writer who acknowledges what's he's had and builds on what's established in a new way. Whenever we have to hit reset and forget about his previous supporting cast depresses me.

----------


## Aahz

> what can be done to improve her situation that does not involve getting back with NW?


Change of tone, direction and creative team (and target group) for her book. 

And more relevance in the Batfamily, she should be treated as the most experienced female crime fighter in the family again, not Kate.

----------


## Caivu

> And more relevance in the Batfamily, she should be treated as the most experienced female crime fighter in the family again, not Kate.


Why? She's younger and they've both been active the same amount of time.

----------


## Aahz

> Why? She's younger and they've both been active the same amount of time.


If they go back to something like the pre flashpoint timeline, which seems to be the case (Dick t the last issue now in his mid 20s and not only 21), the age Difference is not that big and Barbara has been active way longer than Kate.

----------


## Korath

> I feel Nightwing lacks consistency. I just want a writer who acknowledges what's he's had and builds on what's established in a new way. Whenever we have to hit reset and forget about his previous supporting cast depresses me.


It's what worries me the most with the upcoming run. I'm not sure that the Rebirth Bludhaven will be built upon so much as it will be replaced. And truth been told, I'm still not sold on this setting for Dick. But erasing what came before won't help him (see Wonder Woman, who is in a Worth situation than him because of it).

----------


## Godlike13

> I feel Nightwing lacks consistency. I just want a writer who acknowledges what's he's had and builds on what's established in a new way. Whenever we have to hit reset and forget about his previous supporting cast depresses me.


Im concerned this is going to be the case with Bludhaven itself too. Which then what’s the point of even trying to place him in a consistent setting.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah. It seems Bludhaven is getting hit with the same problems of Dick's supporting cast and rogues gallery. Every creator wants to do their own thing entirely and ignores whats come before him.

I remember during n52 we all wanted him out of Gotham. Now, giving him a home base in Amusement Mile and letting him globe trot from there doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Shoot. Having his home base be the freaking Manor and having him globe trot from there doesnt seem like a bad idea.

----------


## WonderNight

> Yeah. It seems Bludhaven is getting hit with the same problems of Dick's supporting cast and rogues gallery. Every creator wants to do their own thing entirely and ignores whats come before him.
> 
> I remember during n52 we all wanted him out of Gotham. Now, giving him a home base in Amusement Mile and letting him globe trot from there doesn't sound like such a bad idea. Shoot. Having his home base be the freaking Manor and having him globe trot from there doesnt seem like a bad idea.


globe trot and do what? Working for a spy agency gave him a mission, why would him going back to Gotham have him globe trotting? Unless you mean him working for Batman, then maybe he should go back to being Batman's sidekick and call himself Blue Robin.

----------


## dropkickjake

> globe trot and do what? Working for a spy agency gave him a mission, why would him going back to Gotham have him globe trotting? Unless you mean him working for Batman, then maybe he should go back to being Batman's sidekick and call himself Blue Robin.


...sure? Working for another spy agency would be fine. Working with Spyral again (they're "on the side of the angels" now?) would be fine. Finding his own missions of tracking down evil organizations would be fine. I honestly wouldn't even mind him be the ace agent of Batman Inc. (and thus working for Batman I guess). Him being an Ethan Hunt/James Bond type special agent, even if he were working for Batman, would inherently make him less of a Batman Jr than being the street level protector of a city makes him.

Having an apartment in Gotham is not mutually exclusive to globe trotting, so I'm not really sure I understand your premise.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why? She's younger and they've both been active the same amount of time.


It's the character's publication history. It's bound to be annoying that a character that's been with you for a long time gets de-aged or their story reset and treated as less experienced while the newer character gets more respect in story because they start as adults.This applies pretty much to every younger characters and sidekicks.

Heck, Barbara even started as an adult and she still gets de-aged because she's bound by romance to Dick Grayson, who started as a child.

----------


## Ascended

Regarding the idea of Nightwing becoming the "super spy" of the DCU, how would that work? I mean, I support the idea but how would you guys like to see it play out?

Would it be a return to Spyral, or another agency like Checkmate, SHADE, DEO, or even something more mundane like the CIA? What about Argus? I don't really consider them part of the intelligence community (more like a superhero style branch of the military) but they're so ill-formed it'd probably be easy to redefine them. Would you re-purpose an old name like the Outsiders or Batman Inc and create a new spy organization with it?

Would you put Nightwing in charge of this agency, or just make him an agent? Running the organization would, in the real world, require tons of paperwork and keep Dick chained to a desk but this is comics, and it never slowed Nick Fury down.

----------


## Restingvoice

Well, character-wise, he doesn't like to involve himself in shady stuff unless he has to, so he's not going to work for a shady organization willingly. If he's working for someone, they need to be clean or at least appear to be clean, then after he found out they're not, he'll bring them down. 
He can go the Spyral and Parliament way, deliberately infiltrating the shady and evil organization, but that won't last long if he has a choice in the matter. He will take them down quickly so we'll need to a new organization every story arc. The boss for this type of story would be Batman, unless he makes it his mission to do this. 
Assuming he builds his own organization, he won't be a desk person and would want to go into the field himself. There will be an Oracle figure to send him info, but he'll be out there accompanying his agents.

----------


## oasis1313

> Regarding the idea of Nightwing becoming the "super spy" of the DCU, how would that work? I mean, I support the idea but how would you guys like to see it play out?
> 
> Would it be a return to Spyral, or another agency like Checkmate, SHADE, DEO, or even something more mundane like the CIA? What about Argus? I don't really consider them part of the intelligence community (more like a superhero style branch of the military) but they're so ill-formed it'd probably be easy to redefine them. Would you re-purpose an old name like the Outsiders or Batman Inc and create a new spy organization with it?
> 
> Would you put Nightwing in charge of this agency, or just make him an agent? Running the organization would, in the real world, require tons of paperwork and keep Dick chained to a desk but this is comics, and it never slowed Nick Fury down.


I think he should make the Court of Owls work for him and be HIS stooges.

----------


## TheCape

116176771d04e7cec4cd6b754e180947--batman-pictures-batman-batman.jpg
Dick Grayson in Batman: Dark Victory.

----------


## oasis1313

> 116176771d04e7cec4cd6b754e180947--batman-pictures-batman-batman.jpg
> Dick Grayson in Batman: Dark Victory.


You reminded me why I liked this MS so much.

----------


## yash

Holy shit! I was not following the news regarding titans tv show and i decided to look at it today and if what i saw is anywhere close to what we are going to get then i hope this thing gets cancelled before it airs because my god did that look cheap and awful

----------


## Rac7d*

https://twitter.com/jayoliva1/status/987859843238301698



this needs to happen

----------


## oasis1313

> Holy shit! I was not following the news regarding titans tv show and i decided to look at it today and if what i saw is anywhere close to what we are going to get then i hope this thing gets cancelled before it airs because my god did that look cheap and awful


Got a link?

----------


## Aahz

> https://twitter.com/jayoliva1/status/987859843238301698
> 
> 
> 
> this needs to happen


Why would you want to adapt this instead of an actually good story?

----------


## ross61

> Holy shit! I was not following the news regarding titans tv show and i decided to look at it today and if what i saw is anywhere close to what we are going to get then i hope this thing gets cancelled before it airs because my god did that look cheap and awful


Not Possible  :Smile:

----------


## yash

> Not Possible


what is not possible, the show being cancelled or titans looking cheap and awful?

----------


## ross61

> what is not possible, the show being cancelled or titans looking cheap and awful?


Both are not possible.

----------


## yash

> Both are not possible.


 why is it not possible?

----------


## Aioros22

[IMG]https://i.*****.com/vi/0oBx7Jg4m-o/hqdefault.jpg[/IMG]

_10cha_

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would you want to adapt this instead of an actually good story?


why is this appreciation thread always so negative

----------


## TheCape

> why is this appreciation thread always so negative


At least is not death.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why would you want to adapt this instead of an actually good story?





> why is this appreciation thread always so negative


The thing is, even when they're adapting the good stories like Batman and Son, Morrison's Batman and Robin and The Court of Owls, they manage to screw it up by focusing on the wrong parts.

Namely Damian. I swear, when they adapt him it's either putting him on a pedestal or trashing him. There's no in between.

----------


## TheCape

> The thing is, even when they're adapting the good stories like Batman and Son, Morrison's Batman and Robin and The Court of Owls, they manage to screw it up by focusing on the wrong parts.


Even then i wouldn't loss my time with BFC frankly, unless that they change rhe dialogues (almost everyone sound OCC on that mini, except for maybe Dick).

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## CPSparkles

> The thing is, even when they're adapting the good stories like Batman and Son, Morrison's Batman and Robin and The Court of Owls, they manage to screw it up by focusing on the wrong parts.
> 
> Namely Damian. I swear, when they adapt him it's either putting him on a pedestal or trashing him. There's no in between.


I like animated Damian and I like that By TT movies you can see his growth. Damian was unlikable when he arrived and it took sometime for him to change. I feel the animated films handled it well.

You can see as the movies progress his relationship with Dick, Bruce and Alfred change as they become accustomed. They learn to trust, understand and care for each other.  By Judas Contract Dick and Damian's are bros

----------


## Restingvoice

> I like animated Damian and I like that By TT movies you can see his growth. Damian was unlikable when he arrived and it took sometime for him to change. I feel the animated films handled it well.
> 
> You can see as the movies progress his relationship with Dick, Bruce and Alfred change as they become accustomed. They learn to trust, understand and care for each other.  By Judas Contract Dick and Damian's are bros


No, that's not it. I meant him being able to fight Deathstroke, being The Court's chosen one when it supposed to be Dick, and having to adjust Teen Titans age to be around him when they're supposed to be Dick's generation. Now people are shipping Damian with Raven, that is so weird! She was twenty-something when Tim was in middle school, and now it affect her age in the current series too.

----------


## CPSparkles

> No, that's not it. I meant him being able to fight Deathstroke, being The Court's chosen one when it supposed to be Dick, and having to adjust Teen Titans age to be around him when they're supposed to be Dick's generation. Now people are shipping Damian with Raven, that is so weird! She was twenty-something when Tim was in middle school, and now it affect her age in the current series too.


The Deathstroke thing was OP [ I like hiw RSOB handled the Deathstroke  v Damian confrontation] 
Deathstroke is a TTs villain isn't he. He fights Teens maybe that's why he was weakened.

I didn't mind the Chosen one part because Talon choose him and the Court rejected him so he wasn't the CoW's chosen one.
The TT's [BB and Raven] are always deaged to fit Robin that's a DC's modus operandus at this point. It was done with Tim as well. Current Raven is a high schooler though.

The Deathstroke thing is the main thing that annoyed me. I know it's an adaptation but still.

----------


## Aahz

Another problem with a BftC movie is imo, that it is not a story that can work as a stand alone. It is a direct continuation of what happened before (Batman's Death) and serves mostly to set up Dick becoming Batman and Damian becoming Robin. 

As a stand alone movie it would be imo pointless, and it is also not really possible to make it a part of the animated continuity, without completely rewriting the plot, since many major characters don't exist or have at least not introduced in that universe sofar,  Damian is allready Robin and Dick as Batman was also allready done in Bad Blood.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The thing is, even when they're adapting the good stories like Batman and Son, Morrison's Batman and Robin and The Court of Owls, they manage to screw it up by focusing on the wrong parts.
> 
> Namely Damian. I swear, when they adapt him it's either putting him on a pedestal or trashing him. There's no in between.







> Another problem with a BftC movie is imo, that it is not a story that can work as a stand alone. It is a direct continuation of what happened before (Batman's Death) and serves mostly to set up Dick becoming Batman and Damian becoming Robin. 
> 
> As a stand alone movie it would be imo pointless, and it is also not really possible to make it a part of the animated continuity, without completely rewriting the plot, since many major characters don't exist or have at least not introduced in that universe sofar,  Damian is allready Robin and Dick as Batman was also allready done in Bad Blood.


Why would it not work as a standalone film? Its like a book adaptation its starts where starts and ends where it ends.  Does the audience need to know what happened before. Easy, alfred provide a quick intro narration done. Then thats itm no bearing on the overall continuity, why is that a problem. Why is a standalone film pointless must everything by a cinematic universe? Being standalone will allow the use of so many new never before seen characters.

I mean this is so easy, no other story does this for him and on such a grand scale. Finally a story where Dick can act without being undermined. Were always reminded that dick cant be the best because Bruce is alive. well no he dead here and Dick has  WILL step up. We need the GP General Public to see that, so they recognize him in this sense, People know robin as batman sidekick but they need to know Nighting as Batmans Succesor.

----------


## Restingvoice

They just said they already did that story with Dick as Batman, and the important cast, Tim, and Jason hasn't been established yet. That's why they went straight to Bad Blood without any Battle for The Cowl. Only Dick existed so there's no battle to be had.

----------


## Aahz

> Why would it not work as a standalone film? Its like a book adaptation its starts where starts and ends where it ends.  Does the audience need to know what happened before. Easy, alfred provide a quick intro narration done. Then thats itm no bearing on the overall continuity, why is that a problem. Why is a standalone film pointless must everything by a cinematic universe? Being standalone will allow the use of so many new never before seen characters.


I just don't think BftC would be terribly satisfying if you don't really see what happens before and afterwards.
And if you would use all the never seen before character from the comic it would become very confusing, since there is just not enough time to introduce them all.

----------


## Godlike13

That's a good point, there really is no battle to be had with their animated universe. And quite frankly as as much as i enjoy Batman Reborn, im not sure that getting people to know Nighting as Batmans successor is whats in Nightwing's or Dick's best interest. I don't think thats the idea of Nightwing that they should get out to people. 
I mean yes Dick is Bruce's heir apparent, and his most obvious successor, but Nightwing was him rebelling against that idea. Even in Batman Reborn. For him to take over for Batman he had to sacrifice Nightwing. Which made for a good character arc for him as Batman. Batman was not a reward, its what he had to do, and Nightwing was a sacrifice he had to make to do it. And again, Batman Reborn was a great time, great stuff, and if i thought they would ever really commit to him taking over as Batman one day then ya get the idea of Nighting as Batman's successor out there, but we all know that is never gonna happen. But thats ok. At the same time though that also why that shouldn't be what people need to know about Nighting. People need to get to know Nightwing as a concept in its own right. 

I love Wally, but Wally is a key example of a what a double edge sword legacy can be. I don't want that for Dick. In the long run its better that he has a brand he can call his own, and that they develop that.

----------


## oasis1313

There's no reason for it.  If Dick WANTS to be Batman, fine.

----------


## Badou

I'm not really a an of DC's recent animated movies, and like others have said there are better stories they could adapt. Plus didn't we already have Dick as Batman in Bad Blood? That wasn't really good.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm not really a an of DC's recent animated movies, and like others have said there are better stories they could adapt. Plus didn't we already have Dick as Batman in Bad Blood? That wasn't really good.


Becasue that wasnt standalone  so it had rules
jason and red robin could not appear
bruce wasnt dead, he was central to the plot  so no we did not get it. There are no  better stories since DC remains attached to the status quo that dick cannot surpass batman

----------


## Rac7d*

> I just don't think BftC would be terribly satisfying if you don't really see what happens before and afterwards.
> And if you would use all the never seen before character from the comic it would become very confusing, since there is just not enough time to introduce them all.


is flashpoint confusing becasue of the 70+ chracters people have never seen before appearing throughout the film? I dont need to introduce Nightwing, Damian, red robin  red hood or alfred all of our key players  people are fairly familar with them enough. Most people who see one of thease animated movie, did not read the comic arc to know what came before and DC rarely  follows up with a proper sequel of the next direct storyline

Batman the dark knight was great as if

----------


## Aahz

> is flashpoint confusing becasue of the 70+ chracters people have never seen before appearing throughout the film?


In parts.




> Most people who see one of thease animated movie, did not read the comic arc to know what came before and DC rarely  follows up with a proper sequel of the next direct storyline


In most cases they use stories that work as stand alones.

And Honestly BftC is just not such a good story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That's a good point, there really is no battle to be had with their animated universe. And quite frankly as as much as i enjoy Batman Reborn, im not sure that getting people to know Nighting as Batmans successor is whats in Nightwing's or Dick's best interest. I don't think thats the idea of Nightwing that they should get out to people. 
> I mean yes Dick is Bruce's heir apparent, and his most obvious successor, but Nightwing was him rebelling against that idea. Even in Batman Reborn. For him to take over for Batman he had to sacrifice Nightwing. Which made for a good character arc for him as Batman. Batman was not a reward, its what he had to do, and Nightwing was a sacrifice he had to make to do it. And again, Batman Reborn was a great time, great stuff, and if i thought they would ever really commit to him taking over as Batman one day then ya get the idea of Nighting as Batman's successor out there, but we all know that is never gonna happen. But thats ok. At the same time though that also why that shouldn't be what people need to know about Nighting. People need to get to know Nightwing as a concept in its own right. 
> 
> I love Wally, but Wally is a key example of a what a double edge sword legacy can be. I don't want that for Dick. In the long run its better that he has a brand he can call his own, and that they develop that.


Ah. The Grayson Luck. His critically acclaimed runs are the ones where the character himself doesn't really want to do it. Batman and secret agent.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Adapting one of the Nightwing arcs feels like the best way to go for the animated movies.

----------


## jbmasta

> Adapting one of the Nightwing arcs feels like the best way to go for the animated movies.


Night of the Monster Men might make for a decent animated movie. Not an overly complicated plot that allows multiple characters to get focus. Follow up with an adaptation of the Better Than Batman storyline, obviously excising the undercover in the Court of Owls thread as Robin War hasn't happened, and it could be good.

Changes to the BtB adaptation I'd use would be that Raptor is with Haly's Circus having rejoined since Dick's departure (as Death of the Family never happened). Either the circus is in Gotham or Dick comes to visit and he meets Raptor, befriending him.There are a spate of thefts following the circus, which Dick investigates while Raptor tells him about his mother. Raptor's Robin Hood thing is taken to extreme, with little regard for who gets hurt in the process, and he and Dick come to blows. Believing that Dick has abandoned his heritage, Raptor kidnaps Bruce thinking it's Bruce's fault for taking Dick from the circus. Dick comes and fights Raptor while tearing into his motives and how he needs to work past it.

Basically the first two thirds are loosely Better Than Batman minus the Court of Owls and the final third is Rise of Raptor. It delves into Dick's background, allows use of Batgirl (who has so far only had a silent cameo at the end of Bad Blood) and, most importantly, Dick doesn't come off a butt monkey.

----------


## Aahz

> Adapting one of the Nightwing arcs feels like the best way to go for the animated movies.


Thats also tricky imo.

For a good animated movie you need imo idealy a story arc of the right length, that stat can stand mostly on it's own. Something like Humphries Untouchable Arc, could be adapted pretty easy for example most other arcs I can think of not so much. Better than Batman has ties to alot of previous stories (Night of the Owls, Grayson, Robin War) and making the plot logical work without might require a lot of changes to the story.

----------


## jbmasta

> Thats also tricky imo.
> 
> For a good animated movie you need imo idealy a story arc of the right length, that stat can stand mostly on it's own. Something like Humphries Untouchable Arc, could be adapted pretty easy for example most other arcs I can think of not so much. Better than Batman has ties to alot of previous stories (Night of the Owls, Grayson, Robin War) and making the plot logical work without might require a lot of changes to the story.


You could do a loose adaption of Better Than Batman and Raptor Rising, getting Dick and Raptor together and in a situation where Raptor’s methods challenge Dick’s values while comparing and contrasting the two. The Robin Hood motif for example. The whole set up with the Owls was a dangling thread from the previous run, and Better Than Batman ties it up.

----------


## Aahz

> You could do a loose adaption of Better Than Batman and Raptor Rising,


Don't know, the loose adaption DC made have rarely been as good as the comics they were based on or the completely original stories.

----------


## Restingvoice

Dbk5tUfXkAEQCAa.jpg
- Ben Percy

Are we sure the JRJR one is a variant and not a back cover?

----------


## The Whovian

> Dbk5tUfXkAEQCAa.jpg
> - Ben Percy
> 
> Are we sure the JRJR one is a variant and not a back cover?


I love JRJR's variant

----------


## dietrich

> Dbk5tUfXkAEQCAa.jpg
> - Ben Percy
> 
> Are we sure the JRJR one is a variant and not a back cover?


Actually looking forward to Percy on Nightwing. look at that beautiful blue.

----------


## Badou

JRJR's art isn't bad if the faces are completely obscured.

----------


## dietrich

> JRJR's art isn't bad if the faces are completely obscured.


Awww so we're talking dodgy faces? I like pretty Nightwing but the story outweighs the art any day for me. Though truly ugly art can make it an uphill battle if the story is just okay.

----------


## Ascended

> Are we sure the JRJR one is a variant and not a back cover?


Pretty sure I saw an article that said DC was doing this full-art thing for their variant covers. So that's supposed to be the front cover, I guess.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pretty sure I saw an article that said DC was doing this full-art thing for their variant covers. So that's supposed to be the front cover, I guess.


Oh I like that.

----------


## Badou

> Awww so we're talking dodgy faces? I like pretty Nightwing but the story outweighs the art any day for me. Though truly ugly art can make it an uphill battle if the story is just okay.


Nah, JRJR draws terrible faces. They all look the same and look bad. I don't really care about pretty Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

I care about pretty Nightwing. In my opinion, a Nightwing artist needs to have an ability to draw an irresistible Nightwing. If not then it just ain't Nightwing... My boy isn't ashamed of his good looks.

----------


## nightbird

[img]https://b.***********/b29/1804/98/329d045c23de.jpg[/img]
https://twitter.com/jin_guyu/status/989030357960986624

----------


## CPSparkles

Nice Ninja nightwing pic. Was just about to post it but you beat me to it @ Nightbird

----------


## CPSparkles

Father and Son



http://godtierwonder.tumblr.com

----------


## Buried Alien

It just occurred to me that this calendar year, Dick Grayson has finally been Nightwing for as long as he was Robin.

Robin era:  1940-1984

Nightwing era:  1984-2018

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Actually you are 10 Years off (Has Manhattan Gotten to you too?). In 2028 I’d Dick is still Nightwing this will be true if you overlook the 3 yrs as Batman from 09’ To 11’ and 2 yr as Grayson from 14’ To 16’. I don’t remember how long he was Batman in the 90’s.

----------


## The World

Can't really see much in this shot. Kind of looks more like Dick's young justice suit in this lighting to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Can't really see much in this shot. Kind of looks more like Dick's young justice suit in this lighting to me.


this is gonna be great

----------


## oasis1313

> Father and Son
> 
> 
> 
> http://godtierwonder.tumblr.com


A congenial scene like this would be played out with Bruce and Tim--not Bruce and Dick, because Dr. Wertham still has DC terrified after all these ages.  Besides Tim is Bruce's favorite; Jason is the only adopted son; Damian is the only biological son--so Dick pretty much doesn't have a place in the family, except as The Charity Case.

----------


## Rac7d*

> A congenial scene like this would be played out with Bruce and Tim--not Bruce and Dick, because Dr. Wertham still has DC terrified after all these ages.  Besides Tim is Bruce's favorite; Jason is the only adopted son; Damian is the only biological son--so Dick pretty much doesn't have a place in the family, except as The Charity Case.


Happy opposite day

----------


## Rac7d*

that new teen titans trailers hit me though

Robin should have had amovie by now
 it was all so meta

----------


## Restingvoice

Percy: I'm setting the stage right now for something much bigger. The story begins in Bludhaven, but it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And though you can say that the Dark Web will be the through-line of my time on Nightwing, the same way that the Ninth Circle was sort of the through-line of my time on Green Arrow, there will be micro-narratives. There will be vacations, let's say, from the Dark Web. I have a micro-narrative coming up that's going to directly channel a lot of Grant Morrison weirdness. It's going to be an almost direct homage to his work on Batman and Robin. So keep your eye out for Flamingo, among others.

I didn't expect Dark Web will be a mega arc. Somehow I thought they'd be for this arc only. Maybe because this is something that Dick doesn't usually face, so I thought it's experimental.

----------


## yohyoi

Totally recommend Percy's first issue! The art alone is enough for me to buy it (90's comic comeback). It looks to be a mega-arc. Something Dick hasn't had since Grayson. I'm also an oldie so I relate with Dick in this issue.

"Kids addicted with their lightboxes!"  :Mad:

----------


## OWL45

> Totally recommend Percy's first issue! The art alone is enough for me to buy it (90's comic comeback). It looks to be a mega-arc. Something Dick hasn't had since Grayson. I'm also an oldie so I relate with Dick in this issue.
> 
> "Kids addicted with their lightboxes!"


I thought it was good too and an intriguing start. Its something that hasnt been done to death with the character yet if at all. I think Percy understands the character.

----------


## oasis1313

> Happy opposite day


 I once came across an old copy of "Seduction of the Innocent" in a old book sale about 45 years ago and kept it in my library, then sold it on eBay a few years ago for over a thousand bucks.  Sometimes it's good to be an old comics geek.  Dr Wertham taught me a word I've never seen before or since:  "ephebic."

----------


## Ascended

I've always wanted to read that. And watch.....crap, what was it called....Refer Madness! Gotta love 1950's era propaganda.  :Wink: 

And Percy's first issue (the first single issue of Nightwing I've picked up in ages, because I didn't want to wait until the trade) was solid. Dialogue was decent, the plot is interesting, and Dick doesn't come off as being a total idiot even though he's dealing with something outside his wheelhouse. It's just one issue, but I feel like Percy had better structure, dialogue, and pacing than he does in Arrow (and I've generally enjoyed that book, flaws and all).

Also picked up the Nightwing: The New Order trade (finally!). Very entertaining, and a great Elseworlds tale. I meant to only read the first few pages last night but ended up reading the whole thing instead of going to bed at a reasonable time like I should've. Good art, and a fascinating spin on Dick that stayed true to character while throwing him into a really messed up situation. It was just as good as I had heard it was.

----------


## The World

DC ARTISTS ALLEY: NIGHTWING BY HAINANU “NOOLIGAN” SAULQUE

Sculpted by Paul Harding
Size: Figures measure 7.15’’ tall
MSRP: $40.00 - Each sold separately
Individually numbered
On Sale December 2018
Standard Figure limited to 3,000 pieces
Black and White Variant Figure limited to 500 pieces




http://batmannotes.com/post/17355072...girl-the-flash

Pretty cool.

----------


## phantom1592

> that new teen titans trailers hit me though
> 
> Robin should have had amovie by now
>  it was all so meta


Robin's had two movies now... they just sucked :P 

Not counting the 60's movie which was awesome. 


Some characters have had zero movie presence... but Robin isn't one of them  :Wink:

----------


## dietrich

> that new teen titans trailers hit me though
> 
> Robin should have had amovie by now
>  it was all so meta


Saw the new trailer and have to say this is my favourite DC movie trailer to date. Such fun. I hope this movie does very well.

----------


## dietrich

> DC ARTISTS ALLEY: NIGHTWING BY HAINANU “NOOLIGAN” SAULQUE
> 
> Sculpted by Paul Harding
> Size: Figures measure 7.15’’ tall
> MSRP: $40.00 - Each sold separately
> Individually numbered
> On Sale December 2018
> Standard Figure limited to 3,000 pieces
> Black and White Variant Figure limited to 500 pieces
> ...


Oh What's this ? A new Grayson thing to spend cash I don't have on? Bring it on!
Damn the Babs one looks SICK as F**k

----------


## yohyoi

> DC ARTISTS ALLEY: NIGHTWING BY HAINANU “NOOLIGAN” SAULQUE
> 
> Sculpted by Paul Harding
> Size: Figures measure 7.15’’ tall
> MSRP: $40.00 - Each sold separately
> Individually numbered
> On Sale December 2018
> Standard Figure limited to 3,000 pieces
> Black and White Variant Figure limited to 500 pieces
> ...


Yup, it's cool.

Anyway I'm guessing the finale episode of the upcoming Titans series will be named Nightwing, since Dick is still Robin. It would be awesome to see him become Nightwing.

----------


## jbmasta

> Totally recommend Percy's first issue! The art alone is enough for me to buy it (90's comic comeback). It looks to be a mega-arc. Something Dick hasn't had since Grayson. I'm also an oldie so I relate with Dick in this issue.
> 
> "Kids addicted with their lightboxes!"


In the previous issue he had issues setting up his TV connections and didn’t know what Netflix and Chill meant, so it’s not out of the blue for this issue.

----------


## The World

> Oh What's this ? A new Grayson thing to spend cash I don't have on? Bring it on!
> Damn the Babs one looks SICK as F**k


Yeah the Babs one is the best imo. Gonna post it over in the babs thread.

----------


## The World

Nvm looked it up myself. Googled it and it says average semi tire weighs between 100-110 lbs on average. But the michelin website has it going as high as 125.

But just going on the low end average 110 x 6 + the weight of the bar which is about 45lbs =705 lbs. According to wikipedia the highest weight ever done on a clean and jerk is 588 lbs so Dick just broke the world record by 119 lbs. Not bad.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Robin's had two movies now... they just sucked :P 
> 
> Not counting the 60's movie which was awesome. 
> 
> 
> Some characters have had zero movie presence... but Robin isn't one of them


Robin had his own movie Dick Grayson?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nvm looked it up myself. Googled it and it says average semi tire weighs between 100-110 lbs on average. But the michelin website has it going as high as 125.
> 
> But just going on the low end average 110 x 6 + the weight of the bar which is about 45lbs =705 lbs. According to wikipedia the highest weight ever done on a clean and jerk is 588 lbs so Dick just broke the world record by 119 lbs. Not bad.


I changed my mind I like Dick as a personal trainers, its flexible on his time so he will never be fired and it wont clash with Nighting

----------


## dropkickjake

> I changed my mind I like Dick as a personal trainers, its flexible on his time so he will never be fired and it wont clash with Nighting


Right, but it doesn't have to exist. like, if thats all that matters for the job, have him live off bruces money, or the insurance settlement from Haly's seriously, this job is pointless.

----------


## TheCape

> Right, but it doesn't have to exist. like, if thats all that matters for the job, have him live off bruces money, or the insurance settlement from Haly's seriously, this job is pointless.


Dick is too independent to accept Bruce's money, he always has made a point about relying only on his own stuff. After what happened on Higgin's run, i don't think that Haly is an option anymore.

----------


## dietrich

> I changed my mind I like Dick as a personal trainers, its flexible on his time so he will never be fired and it wont clash with Nighting


I'm not a big fan of it. I liked Bartender Dick or cop Dick. Even better put him in a suit or have him be what he is Bludhaven's most eligible Bachelor and son of Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne.
I want charity balls etc. He can be the *Face* of the Wayne's fronting all their PR campaign's and cutting ribbons
That way he's not living off daddy's cash but actually working for it and helping those in need.

----------


## Godlike13

I still vote for gambler Dick  :Cool:

----------


## The World

I've been watching Kaiji Ultimate Survivor you'd be surprise how much you can get out of gamblingnif you make it seem dramatic enough.

----------


## dropkickjake

I won't say that I know exactly how to make this work, but I still think under cover agent is the way to go as his "day job."

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick is too independent to accept Bruce's money, he always has made a point about relying only on his own stuff. After what happened on Higgin's run, i don't think that Haly is an option anymore.


Do we even know if the Higgins' material is canon anymore?  It's too hard to keep up with, especially with DC cherry-picking its continuity according to whatever capricious notions they have.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm not a big fan of it. I liked Bartender Dick or cop Dick. Even better put him in a suit or have him be what he is Bludhaven's most eligible Bachelor and son of Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne.
> *I want charity balls etc. He can be the Face of the Wayne's fronting all their PR campaign's and cutting ribbons*
> That way he's not living off daddy's cash but actually working for it and helping those in need.


Damian does that now

----------


## Aahz

> Do we even know if the Higgins' material is canon anymore?  It's too hard to keep up with, especially with DC cherry-picking its continuity according to whatever capricious notions they have.


Sofar most of the stuff that happened in the New 52 seems still to be canon, and they mostly retconed only stuff like origin stories, that happened before the continuity started.

And since what happend with Haly was connected with Court of the Owls and Death of the Family, I don't think it will be erased.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Damian does that now


An excuse to make Damian a regular supporting cast member in a Nightwing book? Sounds good to me.

----------


## Rac7d*

> An excuse to make Damian a regular supporting cast member in a Nightwing book? Sounds good to me.


he doesnt need an excuse he already it

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm not a big fan of it. I liked Bartender Dick or cop Dick. Even better put him in a suit or have him be what he is Bludhaven's most eligible Bachelor and son of Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne.
> I want charity balls etc. He can be the *Face* of the Wayne's fronting all their PR campaign's and cutting ribbons
> That way he's not living off daddy's cash but actually working for it and helping those in need.


I rather like this idea.  Dick should have some interest in where Nightwing's future funding is coming from, and whether he likes it or not, he is a part of a legacy now.  At charity balls and PR, I don't think Damian frankly has the social skills and charisma to move easily in those circles yet.  He was raised in a rather isolated environment and the focus of his upbringing was to kill--not to charm.  I'd be cool with a Batman Inc approach--different BatFam members based in cool cities around the world.

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## Rac7d*

> I rather like this idea.  Dick should have some interest in where Nightwing's future funding is coming from, and whether he likes it or not, he is a part of a legacy now.  At charity balls and PR, I don't think Damian frankly has the social skills and charisma to move easily in those circles yet.  He was raised in a rather isolated environment and the focus of his upbringing was to kill--not to charm.  I'd be cool with a Batman Inc approach--different BatFam members based in cool cities around the world.


Dick never been about that uppercrust life, he only undertakes it when he as too and that means Bruce is dead

----------


## yohyoi

Why doesn't Nightwing have any archnemesis?

For a hero to be truly great, he should have an opposing equal who can match him and push him to his limits. Nightwing never had one. For a hero who has hundreds of solo material and thousands of appearances, there is no clear archnemesis for him. What do we attribute this lack of archnemesis for?

Is it because writers don't build up on past writers? Maybe these writers have no long term goal at sight? Or is it because there is no definite Nightwing story? For me, I think it is because there is no definite Nightwing story. Flash, Superman, Green Lantern, etc. have their definite stories and writers. Their essential must reads. Nightwing doesn't have this. The only essential must reads I can think of for Dick Grayson is The Black Mirror when he was Batman and The Judas Contract when he was in the Teen Titans. Even the loved King and Seeley's Grayson or Dixon's Nightwing run, don't have story arcs I would consider essential.

I believe we will get Nightwing's archnemesis when he gets an era defining story involving a villain which could truly be called his archnemesis.

----------


## Mataza

Well, its not for lack of trying. Blockbuster, Jason, Raptor, the Judge.

The Judge has the potential, but it needs to be revisited and developed and i doubt well see the character again for a while.

----------


## TheCape

I think that Blockbuster was his nemesis in the 90s and during Seely it was Raptor. But they don't last, he is like WW in that aspect, every writter has his own take on who should be his nemesi.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

It should ideally be Slade, but they seem set on making him a Batman or universal DC villain for some stupid reason.

----------


## TheCape

> It should ideally be Slade, but they seem set on making him a Batman or universal DC villain for some stupid reason.


Slade was more like a Teen Titan villain, neither Bruce or Dick should be handle him by thenselves, IMO. Unless that want it to play out like in the TT cartoon of course, but comicDeathstroke never had that kind of relation with Dick.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Slade was more like a Teen Titan villain, neither Bruce or Dick should be handle him by thenselves, IMO.


Yeah, but Dick leads the Titans, they upped the intensity of the rivalry in the cartoon, and Slade dropped Chemo on Bludhaven out of spite towards him. I think there is enough precedent for Dick and Slade to be arch enemies, and I think Dick SHOULD be able to challenge Slade a bit on his own. Slade had trouble killing Dick's generation of Titans when they were still teens, and even commented himself that Dick was the most difficult to capture in Judas Contract. A more experienced, more adult Dick should be able to stand up to Slade even better.

But then, I've never cared for Slade becoming more and more of an uber badass as the things went on either.

----------


## Mataza

Batman rogues all are aspects of Bruce himself, of both his greatest flaws and his most defining traits. I wont go through every one of them because its old news, but to make my case, the Joker is the Chaos to Batmans Order. Two face, Bane, the penguin, scarecrow, etc.

Raptor is what? A friend of his mother? Blockbuster is what? some dude that profits from a city he is defending? Jason had potential as an arch nemesis.

I think Dick needs to develop some personality traits that are interesting enough for a mirror to appear. Heck, people are complaining that an author made the character be "old school", when that could work perfectly well, set up an arch nemesis that embraces technological advancement and have the two battle it out in a conflict that is larger than themselves.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It should ideally be Slade, but they seem set on making him a Batman or universal DC villain for some stupid reason.


Apparently he is too good to fight sidekicks anymore, even though his orgin is being a petty bitch
this is ther relationship now, just mocking him

----------


## Mataza

Slade is way beyond being a nemesis at this point.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Slade is way beyond being a nemesis at this point.


I mean despite 100 percent use of his brain he is  still jsut as petty as any batman villians

----------


## yash

> Batman rogues all are aspects of Bruce himself, of both his greatest flaws and his most defining traits. I wont go through every one of them because its old news, but to make my case, the Joker is the Chaos to Batmans Order. Two face, Bane, the penguin, scarecrow, etc.
> 
> Raptor is what? A friend of his mother? Blockbuster is what? some dude that profits from a city he is defending? Jason had potential as an arch nemesis.
> 
> I think Dick needs to develop some personality traits that are interesting enough for a mirror to appear. Heck, people are complaining that an author made the character be "old school", when that could work perfectly well, set up an arch nemesis that embraces technological advancement and have the two battle it out in a conflict that is larger than themselves.


 dick is not batman and he does not need to be one to have great villans, spidey does not need to be a narcissist to have the likes of doc ock as a villan, naruto was no megalomaniac and yet he has villans who were just that, this 'personality traits' is generally used by folks who hate siver age with a passion, just because a guy is not self loathing with murdered parents they have no personality

Regarding the whole old school debate, i have a very clear opinion on that, dick has been batman and a spy that was using tech like hypnos, you don't just go 'old school' after being written like as batman and a spy for years

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## TheCape

> dick is not batman and he does not need to be one to have great villans, spidey does not need to be a narcissist to have the likes of doc ock as a villan, naruto was no megalomaniac and yet he has villans who were just that, this 'personality traits' is generally used by folks who hate siver age with a passion, just because a guy is not self loathing with murdered parents they have no personality


Actually Doc Ock is a dark reflection of Peter and most of Naruto villains (at least most of the important ones) are dark reflections of him to an extent. Of course, you need more than that be a nemesis thougth, it should be someone that Dick personally hate with passion more than any other.

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## Godlike13

> Well, its not for lack of trying. Blockbuster, Jason, Raptor, the Judge.
> 
> The Judge has the potential, but it needs to be revisited and developed and i doubt well see the character again for a while.


I doubt will see Judge again. Raptor has the most potential, but Blockbuster will probably be the most recurring.

----------


## yash

> Actually Doc Ock is a dark reflection of Peter and most of Naruto villains (at least most of the important ones) are dark reflections of him to an extent. Of course, you need more than that be a nemesis thougth, it should be someone that Dick personally hate with passion more than any other.


that is mostly slott and i never really bought it, same with naruto, save for the forced dichotomies there is nothing common between him and madara or obito or kaguya or sasuke for that matter no matter how much kishi wants it to be

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## TheCape

> that is mostly slott and i never really bought it, same with naruto, save for the forced dichotomies there is nothing common between him and madara or obito or kaguya or sasuke for that matter no matter how much kishi wants it to be


 DeFalco did a good job on building Otto as that back in the 90s and he doesn't have much in common with Kaguya and Madara, but Obito that guy is pretty much evilNaruto and Sasuke is constanly used as an example of what he could have been (althougth i admit than that part felt a bit retcony).

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## TheCape

Sorry but the slight deviation there, we got out track in this thread  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> Slade was more like a Teen Titan villain, neither Bruce or Dick should be handle him by thenselves, IMO. Unless that want it to play out like in the TT cartoon of course, but comicDeathstroke never had that kind of relation with Dick.


It is the same with Darkseid and Superman. Darkseid is sort of more of a JL villain, but he is usually positioned in a way where he kind of works as a Superman villain as well. Deathstroke as a villain probably has more history with Dick than any other villain, and Nightwing and Deathstroke are the two most successful things to come from the NTT run too, but DC has no interest in using Deathstroke as anything close to a Nightwing villain. They would much rather use him as a Batman villain first because they think that is more valuable. 

And that right there is the key problem. DC thinks that Deathstroke is too valuable to be used for Nightwing or that Nightwing isn't a big enough character to be worthy of Deathstroke. That mindset will forever prevent Dick from ever getting a proper arch villain because it already puts a limit on what you can do with him. 

I personally don't think that it is possible to create a new arch villain with a new character for Dick who has been around for nearly 80 years now. As much as someone might like Raptor or Judge no one is going to look at them as being the de facto villain for Nightwing. All the main villains for big DC heroes have been around from the start of those hero's career or for decades and decades. Unless we get a genre defining Nightwing run that completely changes the way people look at Nightwing DC is just going to continue to use Blockbuster because people still look at that Dixon run as being the go to Nightwing run even though it has a lot of problems. There just has never been anything else to replace it in people's minds, so it is always the fallback.

----------


## Alycat

Nightwing's true nemesis that will never be defeated should be called Nostalgia. They should pop out and attack every 6 months.

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## Rac7d*

> It is the same with Darkseid and Superman. Darkseid is sort of more of a JL villain, but he is usually positioned in a way where he kind of works as a Superman villain as well. Deathstroke as a villain probably has more history with Dick than any other villain, and Nightwing and Deathstroke are the two most successful things to come from the NTT run too, but DC has no interest in using Deathstroke as anything close to a Nightwing villain. They would much rather use him as a Batman villain first because they think that is more valuable. 
> 
> And that right there is the key problem. DC thinks that Deathstroke is too valuable to be used for Nightwing or that Nightwing isn't a big enough character to be worthy of Deathstroke. That mindset will forever prevent Dick from ever getting a proper arch villain because it already puts a limit on what you can do with him. 
> 
> I personally don't think that it is possible to create a new arch villain with a new character for Dick who has been around for nearly 80 years now. As much as someone might like Raptor or Judge no one is going to look at them as being the de facto villain for Nightwing. All the main villains for big DC heroes have been around from the start of those hero's career or for decades and decades. Unless we get a genre defining Nightwing run that completely changes the way people look at Nightwing DC is just going to continue to use Blockbuster because people still look at that Dixon run as being the go to Nightwing run even though it has a lot of problems. There just has never been anything else to replace it in people's minds, so it is always the fallback.


can you name any new villains who have surfaced in the last 6 years from anyone to gain notoriety? I cant and all teh exisitng one who gain any momentum are turned into anti heroes

----------


## Ascended

> Dick SHOULD be able to challenge Slade a bit on his own. Slade had trouble killing Dick's generation of Titans when they were still teens, and even commented himself that Dick was the most difficult to capture in Judas Contract. A more experienced, more adult Dick should be able to stand up to Slade even better.


This is something DC often seems to forget, and I think it's a big part of what is holding the Titans generation back, both as solo acts and as a group.

These are people who had years of heroic experience before they were old enough to vote. Before they were old enough to drink they were holding off demon lords, standing up to the frigging Justice League, and stopping alien invasions.

Years have passed since that point. Now these are people who are physically in their primes, have nearly as much experience as their mentors, and have saved the world themselves on more than one occasion. 

And you want to tell me that they're no more effective now than they were back then? That doesn't track.

I mean, Cyborg has a Mother Box for a heart and should basically be considered a new demi-New God (a NuGod?). Wally killed the Anti-Monitor and did it at such speed even Kal-L didn't see him. Nightwing has fought some of the most insidious secret societies around, and successfully infiltrated and dismantled one of them. We are far beyond the point where the Fearsome Five are a threat.

And if the old villains like the Five have also grown and become better? We need to see that. Until the NTT generation start fighting the kind of threats you'd expect from people as skilled and experienced as they are, all they'll be are the 25 year olds who still show up at high school parties. And no one likes that guy.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it. 

So I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking about Deathstroke.
I don't know why people think Deathstroke is so awesome, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans. 
A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke. 
It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.

----------


## yash

> Oh, we're doing this again.
> I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking.
> I don't know why people like Deathstroke so much besides he looks or acts cool, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans. 
> A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke. 
> It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.


 deathstroke has been nerfed a lot in the last decade, the guy had beaten green lantern(kyle) and hit flash of all people, unless it's a team effort batman should not be beating  slade as easily as he did in slade's own book, hell the likes of jason should not even be touching him but that is what is happening

----------


## Armor of God

> Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it. 
> 
> So I'm just gonna use this chance to say what I've been thinking about Deathstroke.
> I don't know why people think Deathstroke is so awesome, because from what I heard he can't even beat Teen Titans. 
> A lot of his feats like beating Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, all sounds like the same thing they like to do to Batman. Overpowering him because people think he's cool which is often contested. So to me he's like the Batman of villains. The Batgod of villains. Godstroke. 
> It's one thing if he actually killed some of those heroes like Doomsday or Joker did, but as far as I know, he never did, so I'm not impressed.


He's killed more named characters than Joker and Doomsday combined. Atom and Phantom Lady for starters.

----------


## Restingvoice

> He's killed more named characters than Joker and Doomsday combined. Atom and Phantom Lady for starters.


Ah ok. Well deserved then.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> And that right there is the key problem. DC thinks that Deathstroke is too valuable to be used for Nightwing or that Nightwing isn't a big enough character to be worthy of Deathstroke. That mindset will forever prevent Dick from ever getting a proper arch villain because it already puts a limit on what you can do with him.


i think this is the case with his writers too. Mark Waid wanted to write the NW solo back in the 90s but they said he was "too good" for him. Waid even called Dick and Kory husband and wife in his Flash run without knowing the decision to jerk pull him back to the Batbooks.

----------


## Aahz

Slades Powerlevel has always been quite inconsistent. Pre flashpoint he beat the entire Justice league, but got in an other book beaten by Batman alone.

But with the Powers and Skill he is supposed to have, I don't think that any normal human should be able to take him down (including characters like Lady Shiva).

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> i think this is the case with his writers too. Mark Waid wanted to write the NW solo back in the 90s but they said he was "too good" for him. Waid even called Dick and Kory husband and wife in his Flash run without knowing the decision to jerk pull him back to the Batbooks.


I will never forgive DC for not letting Waid write Nightwing. Marvel clearly knew it'd be a hit, which is why they let him basically do it for Daredevil.

----------


## Ascended

> But with the Powers and Skill he is supposed to have, I don't think that any normal human should be able to take him down (including characters like Lady Shiva).


I think the only normal humans who should be able to give Slade a real fight are Shiva and Cass Cain. In a straight up fight, no one else should even come close. Batman, if he has to fight Slade, should have to prep for that fight and dump millions into one-time gadgets that'll only slow Slade down. 

I suppose Azreal, if he's deep in the System, should give Slade a solid challenge, but at that point Jean Paul isn't really a normal human, he's a low-end meta just like Slade is.

----------


## Ascended

> Oh, we're doing this again. The Dick has been not Respected Enough Dance. I agree, but I'm also already bored of it.


Well....I'd say this is more about not letting characters benefit from their experience and sticking them in a mode they've outgrown, but close enough.  :Big Grin: 

But that's an issue across the Big 2, not just the NTT. I mean, after over a decade of experience you wouldn't think that Metallo or Parasite could pose much of a threat to Superman anymore, but they still do.

----------


## Aioros22

Slade never had any real issues taking on the Titans solo under Wolfman. Compared to him, they were toodlers with little experience.

----------


## dropkickjake

I think that Dick has gotten some pretty solid villains in the past 6 or seven years, whether he has a true "nemesis" or not. Most of the rogues were as Batman or Agent 37, but it is starting to seem like they are going to become Dick's villains. Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Mr Minos, and Raptor all come to mind as villains memorable enough to make returns in the series. They all also play off of aspects of Dick's character (showman, friend to every hero, et c.).

Lack of consistency is always the problem with Dick. it doesn't look like we get to hang on to Vegas-haven in the new run, which is quite the bummer. There are plenty of characters worth keeping, IMO. Its good to hear that Flamingo and Pyg might appear in this run. Pyg that would be the third or fourth time that Pyg has appeared as a Dick Grayson villain. We just need Nightwing authors to work with villains they didn't create themselves now that there are plenty of ones to pick from.

I'd like to see a run on Nightwing like Snyder had on Batman. A massive run-- 50ish issues-- where the creative team does both. Brings us some new villains (like Snyder did with the Court of Owls), but also gives us some truly great stories with preexisting villains, like Pyg, Blockbuster, Minos, Raptor, et c. Not the same Blockbuster story over and over again, but a new and great story with an old villain.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Slade never had any real issues taking on the Titans solo under Wolfman. *Compared to him, they were toodlers with little experience.*


And yet he couldn't do the job of killing/capturing them on his own, so he had the crazy underage girl he was sleeping with do most of the work.




> I think that Dick has gotten some pretty solid villains in the past 6 or seven years, whether he has a true "nemesis" or not. Most of the rogues were as Batman or Agent 37, but it is starting to seem like they are going to become Dick's villains. Professor Pyg, Flamingo, Mr Minos, and Raptor all come to mind as villains memorable enough to make returns in the series. They all also play off of aspects of Dick's character (showman, friend to every hero, et c.).


I think the Club of Villains should be added to the growing list as well. They are a global threat that would lend themselves wells to a fusion of Nightwing/Agent 37 stories, and nobody is doing anything with them anyway.

----------


## oasis1313

If it's Dick's book, HE should be the one made to look good--not Slade or anybody else.

----------


## yohyoi

> I will never forgive DC for not letting Waid write Nightwing. Marvel clearly knew it'd be a hit, which is why they let him basically do it for Daredevil.


This! That Daredevil run was obviously supposed to be Nightwing. It was so good and full of optimism. The thing Nightwing is... Well at least Matt became happy for a while. DC doesn't respect Nightwing. They will do lip service but that's the only thing they will do. Thankfully for them Dick has fans who know, believe and love the character to continue supporting him. They say WB suck for the DC movies, but DC also suck for sabotaging and stalling one of their most popular character.

----------


## yohyoi

> Apparently he is too good to fight sidekicks anymore, even though his orgin is being a petty bitch
> this is ther relationship now, just mocking him


New52 movie universe Nightwing is weak. His only redeemable quality is his relationship with Kori. Other than that he is just a Robin inside an adult body...

----------


## Aahz

> If it's Dick's book, HE should be the one made to look good--not Slade or anybody else.


But then they shouldn't let him go up against Slade in his own book.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I think the Club of Villains should be added to the growing list as well. They are a global threat that would lend themselves wells to a fusion of Nightwing/Agent 37 stories, and nobody is doing anything with them anyway.


Proper shout, that. My only hesitation is that they weren't exactly written for Dick. But, Dick inheriting much the Morrison era villains makes a certain amount of sense to me.

If Bludhaven needs be his home, thats fine with me. I just wish that it could be more of a home base. If he didn't stay in Bludhaven for an entire arc ever again, I'd be happy. I think thats why the bludhaven arcs felt so dull during seeley's run.

----------


## Restingvoice

(I posted at the wrong thread no wonder it doesn't fit)

----------


## oasis1313

> But then they shouldn't let him go up against Slade in his own book.


No, he should win out over Slade, at least in his own book.  Find a way.  Squirrel Girl could beat Slade.  At least the artist forgot to draw the crotch arrow.

----------


## Aioros22

> And yet he couldn't do the job of killing/capturing them on his own, so he had the crazy underage girl he was sleeping with do most of the work.


The Judas main plot was for Slade getting to know all their secrets and identities. It`s just being smart. The only one Terra attacks is Raven because she was unpredictable. Now sure enough, he was created to be their nemesis after all but the moment he gets his own book and writers start to use him outside Wolfman and starts to feature against bigger squads (from Panic in the Skies, pretty much) the efficiency of the Titans related to Slade..which wasn`t big to begin with, takes a dive.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> The Judas main plot was for Slade getting to know all their secrets and identities. It`s just being smart. The only one Terra attacks is Raven because she was unpredictable. Now sure enough, he was created to be their nemesis after all but the moment he gets his own book and writers start to use him outside Wolfman and starts to feature against bigger squads (from Panic in the Skies, pretty much) the efficiency of the Titans related to Slade..which wasn`t big to begin with, takes a dive.


It definitely was a good plot and sensible on Slade's part. But the point of the story, as even Slade pointed out himself, was that he as getting old. He was a past his prime badass who was still a threat, but needed to do things like recruit Terra in order to get the job done. it's what made him an interesting antagonist, especially when paired against young adult heroes who were still gaining experience. But (and people who have read more of post-Perez Titans than I have can jump in and correct me), Wolfman seems to have lost all objectivity with the character follow JC and spinning him off into his own series. There is no Earthly reason I can fathom the Titans looking to him as an ally and a mentor in some cases after he did the JC to them. And going from being challenged to the inexperienced Teen Titans to stuff like curb stomping the assembled JL is ridiculous. The Titans as more seasoned adults shouldn't look poor when going up against Slade. Wally and Donna especially should be able to take him out without breaking a sweat in a direct confrontation.

----------


## Pohzee

How was Dick's showing in No Justice today?

Also kicking myself for forgetting to pick up the New Order trade. Was that any good? I was pretty excited about it, but fell off the monthly wagon.

----------


## reni344

> How was Dick's showing in No Justice today?
> 
> Also kicking myself for forgetting to pick up the New Order trade. Was that any good? I was pretty excited about it, but fell off the monthly wagon.


*spoilers:*
 He did not get anything to do got he got his butt kicked with rest of the Titans
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Badou

> How was Dick's showing in No Justice today?


Well I wouldn't bother getting it if you are expecting Dick to be in it. It isn't a story where he is going to get focus in. His only appearance in the issue was what you saw in the preview. The one small panel of his head where he is trying to say "Titans together" and the other panel where Superman sees that vision of Nightwing dead on the ground with other Titans and other members of different teams. 

But the issue was interesting for what it was. Felt very Marvel to me kind of and the art was nice. Just don't go in expecting anything from Nightwing is all. Those JL teams they have been promoting are going to be who you read it for.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I see no clear indication of DC prioritizing Nightwing even with Younger Justice/Titans so what happened in No Justice was expected I don’t see him getting much panel time in this event if at all and Abnett has given no reason to believe that Dick will just be generic leader. I hope Percy improves on his story and not fall off with his low tech Nightwing cause that book has officially moved below selling 30k something Grayson never did

----------


## Ascended

> Also kicking myself for forgetting to pick up the New Order trade. Was that any good? I was pretty excited about it, but fell off the monthly wagon.


I just got it last week. I enjoyed it. It's......it doesn't paint Dick in a purely heroic light; he's definitely slid into a gray area. But the same can be said of every character there; no one is purely "right" in that story. There's simply different reactions to a difficult situation (started by one horrible event where all involved were victims) and situations that spiraled out of control.

I thought it was good. Dick was still optimistic and positive and felt in-character even though he had ended up in a questionable situation and role. Art was solid, and I think Dick got a good showing despite being at least halfway on the wrong foot. I'd definitely check it out, but keep it mind you're reading an Elseworld; this isn't supposed to be Nightwing as you recognize him.

----------


## Pohzee

I coulda sworn that Dick was in charge of "Team Earth," so I was hoping he had a bigger presence. I won't be picking it up otherwise. That would be the only reason for me to suffer through a recent Scott Snyder comic.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya they said hes gonna be one of the heads of team earth, but team earth itself doesn’t seem like it’s very important. It’s like a consolation prize.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Ya they said hes gonna be one of the heads of team earth, but team earth itself doesn’t seem like it’s very important. It’s like a consolation prize.


I would think it would depend on what they're going to do with Team Earth and how they're going to use it. If anyone can handle leading the Team Earth group it would be Dick, as most like him and he has both the backing of being a good leader already and a friendlier disposition over Bruce.

----------


## Godlike13

Given that this earth team is clearly not one of the highlighted teams of this mini series, a series which isn't very long, i see no reason why anyone should expect much at all out of this team earth. To me it seems like a consolation prize. DC knows people like him, but aren't really interested in pushing him, so this is them giving him a scrap. A spot on this team earth. The team thats not on any of the covers, was only heard about in a interview, and is a team we are not seeing any continuation of after.

----------


## Ascended

From the way Team Earth was announced, I'm guessing they'll have a fairly small role. It felt to me like Snyder got his story going, and then realized that there could be stuff happening back home and that aspect of the story was developed then. So I don't really expect much other than a few pages here and there with a "Meanwhile, back on earth" kind of vibe. 

I'm hoping maybe something bigger and better comes along because of this but I'd be very surprised if it played a major role in the No Justice story itself.

----------


## Godlike13

We know what comes of this. More Abnett shitting on the character in Titans.

----------


## Restingvoice

Snyder only said there's an earth team with Nightwing and Waller in it, not anyone in charge. 

I never assumed it will be a Justice League team that will have the same importance since they don't have a book and announced as an extra because the story turns out bigger than Snyder initially planned, but I was hoping that there will be a Nightwing vs Waller confrontation because they're the only one announced at the time and I wanted them to meet in his Spyral days. 

Come DC Nation #0 when Ollie and Supergirl were shown I figured that they are part of team Earth and shifted my expectation that maybe Ollie will be the leader instead since he's accepted in the League lately. 

Then they show the Omega Titans arriving on earth so I guessed that everyone left on earth is Team Earth. 

I still think one of the main conflicts of Team Earth will be centered around Amanda Waller, since she does things on her own, but I'm not sure if there's a team specifically made to confront her, or that team earth is a combo of every team left on earth, or if it's a combo of every team left on earth plus the ones in charge on keeping watch on Waller. 

Anyway, their role in the climax as setting up in DC Nations #0 will be defending earth against the Omega Titans long enough until the No Justice Leagues finish their mission.

As of now, the Nightwing vs Waller that I want will happen if the heroes figure out that Waller is causing trouble and send a team which includes Nightwing to raid Waller's base. This should be issue #2, but like I said back then, I don't know if there will be enough panel time to get what I want.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Nightwing vs. Waller really needs to happen. If waller is in a position where she can't trust superheroes and is willing to take big risks to be less dependent on them, Nightwing is the best person to oppose that.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing #45 Textless Variant Cover by John Romita, Jr.



The only thing I dislike in this new costume is this stupid belt.

----------


## phantom1592

> Nightwing #45 Textless Variant Cover by John Romita, Jr.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I dislike in this new costume is this stupid belt.


belt? I see no belt... 

That said, Nightwing SHOULD have a utility belt.  I know the 90's were rough on heroes with belts and pouches... but Batman and robin PERFECTED the utility belts. I know in some versions they tried to move them to Nightwing's gauntlets... but that was just awkward. 

Dick is still a fantastic detective and he would need a place to store his camera, fingerprint kit, homing beacons, smoke pellets, etc. etc. just as he was trained to do since he was a child... 

So I'm always pro utilty belts  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> *belt? I see no belt*... 
> 
> That said, Nightwing SHOULD have a utility belt.  I know the 90's were rough on heroes with belts and pouches... but Batman and robin PERFECTED the utility belts. I know in some versions they tried to move them to Nightwing's gauntlets... but that was just awkward. 
> 
> Dick is still a fantastic detective and he would need a place to store his camera, fingerprint kit, homing beacons, smoke pellets, etc. etc. just as he was trained to do since he was a child... 
> 
> So I'm always pro utilty belts


The ones on his arm, lol

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing vs. Waller really needs to happen. If waller is in a position where she can't trust superheroes and is willing to take big risks to be less dependent on them, Nightwing is the best person to oppose that.



That would have been abetter move during grayson,  him infiltrating her and uncovering her illegal work

----------


## The World

> belt? I see no belt... 
> 
> That said, Nightwing SHOULD have a utility belt.  I know the 90's were rough on heroes with belts and pouches... but Batman and robin PERFECTED the utility belts. I know in some versions they tried to move them to Nightwing's gauntlets... but that was just awkward. 
> 
> Dick is still a fantastic detective and he would need a place to store his camera, fingerprint kit, homing beacons, smoke pellets, etc. etc. just as he was trained to do since he was a child... 
> 
> So I'm always pro utilty belts


Yeah, I don't know why the hell Dick wouldn't have a utility belt to put his stuff.

----------


## Restingvoice

I prefer the gauntlet and mask tech since it keeps his costume slick. He already got a good design going on, whatever accessories he has should support it and not distract from it. 
Catwoman has a backpack for her loots, Batgirl has a purse, the rest of the family have utility belts or pouches...
Hey yeah, he's the only one that doesn't have a carry-on. 
He's like the iPhone of the Batfam, aesthetic first.

----------


## phantom1592

> The ones on his arm, lol


Oh... Okay, yeah those are stupid looking. No form... no function...





> Yeah, I don't know why the hell Dick would have a utility belt to put his stuff.


I remember in the 90's when everyone was harping about the pouches on everyone... but it was never the pouches that were a problem. It was the fact they were never USED... 

Cyclop's Jim Lee outfit is still one of my favorite looks for him, even with the bandolier belt and pouches. If even occasionally... heck even ONCE to my recollection he could have reached into a pocket and pulled out a compass or a some bandages or a grenade or SOMETHING that the typical Boy Scout would have been carrying they wouldn't be an issue. 

Like I said, everyone jokes about Cable and Cyclops having pouches for days... but nobody ever really mocks Batman for having pouches... because it's obvious that he USES those pouches as an integral part of the costume. Nightwing can slip under that same umbrella and I don't think people would blink at it.

----------


## The World

Meant to say I don't know why Dick wouldn't have a utility belt to put his stuff. Makes more sense than putting it in his gauntlets which would just make them needlessly heavy and bulky.  Just kind of makes sense to have something that's always in reach and can store your tools. 


On the new suit I'd probably drop the legs stripes for actual area's where the end of the boots should be and probably get an actual utility belt on they guy.

----------


## Ascended

I like that he doesn't have a utility belt. It helps reinforce the differences between Dick and Batman. It signals that he's not as reliant on gadgets; that he "does his own stunts," as it were. He doesn't have an answer already prepared and waiting, he makes it up as he goes along.

Plus, from a design standpoint, I think it works better without the belt. It makes him look more "daredevil athlete" and less "riot gear."

If there must be a utility belt, make it inconspicuous. Like the Batman Beyond belt.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like that he doesn't have a utility belt. It helps reinforce the differences between Dick and Batman. It signals that he's not as reliant on gadgets; that he "does his own stunts," as it were. He doesn't have an answer already prepared and waiting, he makes it up as he goes along.
> 
> Plus, from a design standpoint, I think it works better without the belt. It makes him look more "daredevil athlete" and less "riot gear."
> 
> If there must be a utility belt, make it inconspicuous. Like the Batman Beyond belt.


I'd be happy if Dick kept his utility belt between his ears (that is, his brain).

----------


## phantom1592

> I'd be happy if Dick kept his utility belt between his ears (that is, his brain).


Honestly, that's what I like about the 'gadgets'... again, not the 'ultimate I win super science mcguffin' that Batman pulls out... but the standard detective tools like they showed off more in the 80's and earlier. The lockpicks, the fingerprint kit. the things that Dick is AMAZING at because he's trained by the world's greatest detective. I prefer my stories to get more detective/mystery style where the hero outthinks and out strategizes his enemies. 

Without the belt and the gadgets... It too often boils down to who punches harder and more often. Batman, Robin, and the whole batfamily should never be delegated to pure bruisers... they need that stuff between their ears to make them awesome. 


In fact that's what I loved about Dick's books back during Prodigal and the early Nightwing books. He was a detective... a crime solver... a great fighter... and still fallible. He was NOT Batgod or alienating all his allies.. Dick was the BETTER Batman than Batman was being written  :Smile:

----------


## oasis1313

> Honestly, that's what I like about the 'gadgets'... again, not the 'ultimate I win super science mcguffin' that Batman pulls out... but the standard detective tools like they showed off more in the 80's and earlier. The lockpicks, the fingerprint kit. the things that Dick is AMAZING at because he's trained by the world's greatest detective. I prefer my stories to get more detective/mystery style where the hero outthinks and out strategizes his enemies. 
> 
> Without the belt and the gadgets... It too often boils down to who punches harder and more often. Batman, Robin, and the whole batfamily should never be delegated to pure bruisers... they need that stuff between their ears to make them awesome. 
> 
> 
> In fact that's what I loved about Dick's books back during Prodigal and the early Nightwing books. He was a detective... a crime solver... a great fighter... and still fallible. He was NOT Batgod or alienating all his allies.. Dick was the BETTER Batman than Batman was being written


You've said it well.  It seems like Dick's IQ changes depending on what he's wearing.

----------


## The World

Yeah, have to agree with Phantom there. Less I win gadgets and more a place to store his forensic tools, communicators, etc. Less just using his eskrima sticks to beat people over the head.

----------


## The World

> I like that he doesn't have a utility belt. It helps reinforce the differences between Dick and Batman. It signals that he's not as reliant on gadgets; that he "does his own stunts," as it were. He doesn't have an answer already prepared and waiting, he makes it up as he goes along.
> 
> Plus, from a design standpoint, I think it works better without the belt. It makes him look more "daredevil athlete" and less "riot gear."
> 
> *If there must be a utility belt, make it inconspicuous. Like the Batman Beyond belt.*


Could maybe use the capsule belt now that Bruce is firmly in the big pouches belt camp.

----------


## Drako

Just put his stuffs on his arms, like in the New 52 costume, instead of this weird belt.

https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/8/52/YWQc1H.jpg

----------


## Badou

I'd be fine with a belt. Like others have said it would be a place for him to actually store his tools to use where he isn't just punching or hitting people with his sticks all the time. I never cared for the sticks that much as it feels too Daredevil-esque to my anyway, but we are too far down that road to go back now. Still, he could store tools for detective work in the belt, things to help him track criminals or things to tie them up and restrain them, or things that would make him a more effective crime fighter.

----------


## oasis1313

> Just put his stuffs on his arms, like in the New 52 costume, instead of this weird belt.
> 
> https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/8/52/YWQc1H.jpg


"Belt" looks like love handles.

----------


## Aioros22

> "Belt" looks like love handles.


Fat shaming alert.

----------


## Ascended

> Fat shaming alert.


Yeah! Eat a damn salad! Fat bastard!

 :Big Grin: 




> In fact that's what I loved about Dick's books back during Prodigal and the early Nightwing books. He was a detective... a crime solver... a great fighter... and still fallible. He was NOT Batgod or alienating all his allies.. *Dick was the BETTER Batman than Batman was being written*


That's still how I see Nightwing. Nearly as good as Batman at most of the vigilante stuff, (I dont need Dick to be a uber detective though) and he's an infinitely better leader and person, and easier to work with on basically every level imaginable. 

I like to imagine that the Justice League ask themselves why they put up with Batman when they could have Nightwing, but they keep Bruce around because they feel sorry for him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

I perfer the idea that Nightwing doesn't want to be on JL, but instead he wants to make his own JL caliber team. Of course DC seems to laugh at that idea. Still imo that should be Dicks mentality.

----------


## Frontier

> Just put his stuffs on his arms, like in the New 52 costume, instead of this weird belt.
> 
> https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/8/52/YWQc1H.jpg


I'd definitely prefer that to a belt.

----------


## oasis1313

> I perfer the idea that Nightwing doesn't want to be on JL, but instead he wants to make his own JL caliber team. Of course DC seems to laugh at that idea. Still imo that should be Dicks mentality.


There's the joke that Batman and Nightwing can't be on the Justice League because they're not met-humans.  Now Green Arrow's joining?  DC's bias against Dick Grayson has always been staggering.

----------


## Godlike13

To be fair I don’t want to see Batman and Nightwing on the JL together.

----------


## WonderNight

> To be fair I dont want to see Batman and Nightwing on the JL together.


I'd like to see nightwing interact with more of dc's big hitters other then batfam and NTT.

----------


## 9th.

I've been reading Grayson lately and it's great. I just think it's hilarious how they mention his butt or him taking his shirt off every issue. You gotta admire that dedication.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> To be fair I don’t want to see Batman and Nightwing on the JL together.


Agreed, and I kind of don't want Nighting on the JL period. If he replaces Batman, everyone would just be asking when Batman would inevitably come back. 

It would be a short term solution that wouldn't solve a long term problem, IMO. 




> I've been reading Grayson lately and it's great. I just think it's hilarious how they mention his butt or him taking his shirt off every issue. You gotta admire that dedication.


I always thought that was pretty great, but some of the tumblr crowd viewed it as being horrible "objectification." I think Seeley got lambasted on Twitter over some of it. 

Which is pretty ridiculous, because I'm sure a lot of those tumblr blogs had plenty of Dick Grayson p0rn fanart and erotic fanfic....

----------


## oasis1313

I always thought that was pretty great, but some of the tumblr crowd viewed it as being horrible "objectification." I think Seeley got lambasted on Twitter over some of it. 

Which is pretty ridiculous, because I'm sure a lot of those tumblr blogs had plenty of Dick Grayson p0rn fanart and erotic fanfic....[/QUOTE]

I never got all those complaints about "objectification" of a male character--yet women have been objectified forever in comics and nobody seems to have a problem with it.

----------


## Agent Z

> I always thought that was pretty great, but some of the tumblr crowd viewed it as being horrible "objectification." I think Seeley got lambasted on Twitter over some of it. 
> 
> Which is pretty ridiculous, because I'm sure a lot of those tumblr blogs had plenty of Dick Grayson p0rn fanart and erotic fanfic....


I never got all those complaints about "objectification" of a male character--yet women have been objectified forever in comics and nobody seems to have a problem with it.[/QUOTE]

Um, plenty of people have a problem with it. Where do you think the push for less sexualized costumes comes from?

----------


## Ascended

> I always thought that was pretty great, but some of the tumblr crowd viewed it as being horrible "objectification." I think Seeley got lambasted on Twitter over some of it. 
> 
> Which is pretty ridiculous, because I'm sure a lot of those tumblr blogs had plenty of Dick Grayson p0rn fanart and erotic fanfic....


Well, two wrongs don't make a right, but the objectification of Nightwing doesn't bother me. I mean, its nothing I have any interest in seeing, but I think it's great that DC's official male eye candy gets drawn that way on occasion. Give the girls a little something-something yknow? Hell, if I were editor, I'd make sure each issue had a good solid butt shot, or whatever it is that people find attractive about guys. 

As far as the League goes, I don't think that's a job Dick really wants and DC would never allow him on the roster when Batman is there too, and Batman will never *not* be a Leaguer for any real length of time. So that means Dick will never sit at that table as anything more than a sub. But all I ask is that the League extend Dick an open-ended invitation and say "We know you don't want to join but we'd love to have you and if you ever change your mind, your seat is waiting for you. We already put your logo on it and everything."

----------


## 9th.

> Agreed, and I kind of don't want Nighting on the JL period. If he replaces Batman, everyone would just be asking when Batman would inevitably come back. 
> 
> It would be a short term solution that wouldn't solve a long term problem, IMO. 
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought that was pretty great, but some of the tumblr crowd viewed it as being horrible "objectification." I think Seeley got lambasted on Twitter over some of it. 
> 
> Which is pretty ridiculous, because I'm sure a lot of those tumblr blogs had plenty of Dick Grayson p0rn fanart and erotic fanfic....


Lmao really? I didn't see that way, I just saw it as the writer  poking fun and going overboard with the fanservice because part of his appeal.

My favorite scene so far was the school girls chasing him around can't.

----------


## 9th.

I find it ironic the Tumblr crowd went after him. My first experience with Tumblr was going on there looking for cool Nightwing pics only to find pics of him making out with all the other Robin's.

----------


## oasis1313

> I never got all those complaints about "objectification" of a male character--yet women have been objectified forever in comics and nobody seems to have a problem with it.


Um, plenty of people have a problem with it. Where do you think the push for less sexualized costumes comes from?[/QUOTE]

The complaints don't appear to have worked with anything except Dick Grayson--I don't see less sexualization of female characters these days--with a few notable exceptions.

----------


## byrd156

> Just put his stuffs on his arms, like in the New 52 costume, instead of this weird belt.
> 
> https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/8/52/YWQc1H.jpg


He did that in the 90s as well I think. I remember him keeping gadgets in his armbands in Under the Red Hood. I think it's a really cool idea, having his gadgets on him without all of them being in one place.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I find it ironic the Tumblr crowd went after him. My first experience with Tumblr was going on there looking for cool Nightwing pics only to find pics of him making out with all the other Robin's.


I found Tumblr because I heard about Nightwing's famous ass and wanted to know about it. The top hits were from Tumblr.

Anyway, Tumblr is not homogenous. Half of Tumblr wanted him to be objectification equalizer, the other half don't want objectification of any kind from both gender. 

The real war though is about Anti Grayson, Anti Secret Agent, Anti New 52, and Anti Dick is Dumb because they emphasize more on his charm and sexiness instead of intelligence. Grayson's overt sexiness is just the floodgate for all those issues and easy visual they can use to promote that you should not buy this book/portrayal.

Oh, they still don't like the objectification, but the issue is far deeper than that.

----------


## 9th.

> I found Tumblr because I heard about Nightwing's famous ass and wanted to know about it. The top hits were from Tumblr.
> 
> Anyway, Tumblr is not homogenous. Half of Tumblr wanted him to be objectification equalizer, the other half don't want objectification of any kind from both gender. 
> 
> The real war though is about Anti Grayson, Anti Secret Agent, Anti New 52, and Anti Dick is Dumb because they emphasize more on his charm and sexiness instead of intelligence. Grayson's overt sexiness is just the floodgate for all those issues and easy visual they can use to promote that you should not buy this book/portrayal.
> 
> Oh they still don't like the objectification, but the issue is far deeper than that.


Wow I had no idea it was that deep, I knew there would be some Anti-Grayson naysayers due to the nature of fandom but not for those reasons.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Wow I had no idea it was that deep, I knew there would be some Anti-Grayson naysayers due to the nature of fandom but not for those reasons.


Again, it's not homogenous. Some people do only protest because of objectification, but others you can tell has deeper issues

----------


## WonderNight

whats wrong with objectifcation again?

----------


## jbmasta

> whats wrong with objectifcation again?


Being interested in someone solely for superficial purposes. I get that comic books are an ideal medium for displaying attractive people in revealing, skintight and/or non-existent clothes. Someone doesn't need to go on a steamed broccoli diet in order to maintain a six pack. However people seem more riled up by women in revealing costumes than men in revealing costumes.

----------


## WonderNight

did any of that happen to dick in Grayson? or is sexy and joking now bad. plus I just dont like people attacking creators and DC or taking something other readers may like in there entertainment just because you dont like it. vote with your wallet! or dont read at all, it's fine. but DC has the right to objectifiy and sexualize their Male and Female characters as much or little as they want. you have the right to like or dislike it as much as you want. but telling DC they cant do it or telling or readers they cant have it is were i disagree.

----------


## jbmasta

> did any of that happen to dick in Grayson? or is sexy and joking now bad. plus I just dont like people attacking creators and DC or taking something other readers may like in there entertainment just because you dont like it. vote with your wallet! or dont read at all, it's fine. but DC has the right to objectifiy and sexualize their Male and Female characters as much or little as they want. you have the right to like or dislike it as much as you want. but telling DC they cant do it or telling or readers they cant have it is were i disagree.


The title didn't just focus on Dick as a sex symbol, the writing was top notch, even if it could be seen to slide towards the end due to Seeley and King passing the final issues onto other writers due to Rebirth commitments. It did play it up a lot, particularly in the first half, but there was more than Dick dressing down. Tom King, one of the co-writers, is ex-CIA, so he's got experience in the espionage aspects of the title. One of the issues even plays to the fanboys, with some pages filled with quotes from Batman issues going back decades. Don't worry if you aren't that well versed in Bat history, it's not in your face level continuity fanservice.

If you want to see what Grayson is like for tone, check out either the first trade, or the Futures End tie-in (included in the first trade). That tie-in does a great job of encapsulating Grayson in a single issue. If you read the issue from back to front, it presents a great story.

----------


## WonderNight

> The title didn't just focus on Dick as a sex symbol, the writing was top notch, even if it could be seen to slide towards the end due to Seeley and King passing the final issues onto other writers due to Rebirth commitments. It did play it up a lot, particularly in the first half, but there was more than Dick dressing down. Tom King, one of the co-writers, is ex-CIA, so he's got experience in the espionage aspects of the title. One of the issues even plays to the fanboys, with some pages filled with quotes from Batman issues going back decades. Don't worry if you aren't that well versed in Bat history, it's not in your face level continuity fanservice.


 I know i loved Grayson, nightwing should be DCU premier spy. It's just when people attack DC and readers for doing and liking it that is annoying. and coming from tumblr no less.

----------


## jbmasta

> I know i loved Grayson, nightwing should be DCU premier spy. It's just when people attack DC and readers for doing and liking it that is annoying. and coming from tumblr no less.


It's the Tumblr crowd, I wouldn't take them seriously. They are also big into shipping, to a toxic degree (guess what group encouraged the writers on Arrow to upgrade the Olicity relationship to an insufferable level). Shipping isn't inherently a bad thing, but when it affects the writing negatively or colors fandom interactions (like sending death threats to partners of actors whose characters they ship), those doing the shipping need to take a step back.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Being interested in someone solely for superficial purposes. I get that comic books are an ideal medium for displaying attractive people in revealing, skintight and/or non-existent clothes. Someone doesn't need to go on a steamed broccoli diet in order to maintain a six pack. However people seem more riled up by women in revealing costumes than men in revealing costumes.


That's because of the amount, and the way it was handled. There are far more sexy women than sexy men, and when it happened, the sexy men still have character. Women are far more often being treated as an eye candy, arm candy, one night stand for the hero or even titilating rape scene like in old B horror movie. While men can be eye candy and an awesome main character at the same time. It's the difference between objectification and being confidently sexy.

I'm talking about Hollywood though. I don't know the example in comic. 

This was also the source of the Grayson discord. The first half of Tumblr consider Grayson to be objectifying, but the other half pointed out that he's still the main character in the story, not a disposable eye candy in a story about another character. Therefore it's not objectification.

----------


## jbmasta

> That's because of the amount, and the way it was handled. There are far more sexy women than sexy men, and when it happened, the sexy men still have character. Women are far more often being treated as an eye candy, arm candy, one night stand for the hero or even titilating rape scene like in old B horror movie. While men can be eye candy and an awesome main character at the same time. It's the difference between objectification and being confidently sexy.
> 
> I'm talking about Hollywood though. I don't know the example in comic. 
> 
> This was also the source of the Grayson discord. The first half of Tumblr consider Grayson to be objectifying, but the other half pointed out that he's still the main character in the story, not a disposable eye candy in a story about another character. Therefore it's not objectification.


Grayson wasn't just Dick in skimpy or skintight clothes, the writing was intelligent and there was more to Dick as a character than just his body. Even though he was an agent of Spyral he had his own agenda and agency in the storylines. When he was battling the creature that had all the powers of the League, Dick was able to counter each one of them and explain why his approach worked. The charge up sound indicating use of Cyborg's cannons, not letting Green Lantern concentrate enough to form a construct etc.

It's interesting the way men and women in film has been perceived and how this perception evolves. Things like the alpha male and damsel in distress tropes, or the seductress.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Grayson wasn't just Dick in skimpy or skintight clothes, the writing was intelligent and there was more to Dick as a character than just his body. Even though he was an agent of Spyral he had his own agenda and agency in the storylines. When he was battling the creature that had all the powers of the League, Dick was able to counter each one of them and explain why his approach worked. The charge up sound indicating use of Cyborg's cannons, not letting Green Lantern concentrate enough to form a construct etc.


Exactly. That's why the Pro-Grayson-Tumblr pointed that the problem of the anti group is not exactly the objectification, but the fact that Dick was a secret agent, not Nightwing, and not Dixon or Perez Nightwing. 

There are those who view anything sexy as objectification though. Of course, since there's so many people in both sides, I can't tell which one's being hippocritical by reblogging sexy fan art. 

Oh and, there are also those that consider fan art to be okay but official material not, because it's like giving permission to perverts or ruining the character's official image. That Dick is now more known for his butt than anything else.

----------


## jbmasta

> Exactly. That's why the Pro-Grayson-Tumblr pointed that the problem of the anti group is not exactly the objectification, but the fact that Dick was a secret agent, not Nightwing, and not Dixon or Perez Nightwing. 
> 
> There are those who view anything sexy as objectification though. Of course, since there's so many people in both sides, I can't tell which one's being hippocritical by reblogging sexy fan art. 
> 
> Oh and, there are also those that consider fan art to be okay but official material not, because it's like giving permission to perverts or ruining the character's official image. That Dick is now more known for his butt than anything else.


Objectification would be publishing a pin up insert of Dick is a seductive pose in each issue.

Indeed that whole view of unofficial material being fair game is very hypocritical. There is lots of fan art online that goes much further than anything DC would print under even an adult imprint.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I know i loved Grayson, nightwing should be DCU premier spy. It's just when people attack DC and readers for doing and liking it that is annoying. and coming from tumblr no less.


so you want him to be  black widow

----------


## The World

Eh when the details about Agent Grayson started coming out everyone hated it. Tunes changed over time but tumblr remained fairly split over it which is ironic given the title was created with tumblr and like minded people in mind. But there was a hard schism over whether the sexual element of Grayson was acceptable or not. Some thought it was good, some thought it was bad and they fought over it.

----------


## Pohzee

I didn't mind the overt sexualization of Grayson in theory, but when rereading, I sometimes find it a bit over-the-top. Not in a "this offends my prudish moral standards" way, but in a "this joke is a bit overdone and is starting to become eyerolling" way.

----------


## TheCape

> I didn't mind the overt sexualization of Grayson in theory, but when rereading, I sometimes find it a bit over-the-top. Not in a "this offends my prudish moral standards" way, but in a "this joke is a bit overdone and is starting to become eyerolling" way.


Pretty much my take, i didn't have a problem with it initially, but it got old half way into the series.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pretty much my take, i didn't have a problem with it initially, but it got old half way into the series.


Yeah. Same. The novelty wore off when it's every issue.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I was never bothered by the jokes. After years of online fandom going on and on about Dick's ass, a comic addressing it in-universe and having fun with it is pretty mild. 




> *Well, two wrongs don't make a right,* but the objectification of Nightwing doesn't bother me. I mean, its nothing I have any interest in seeing, but I think it's great that DC's official male eye candy gets drawn that way on occasion.* Give the girls a little something-something yknow?* Hell, if I were editor, I'd make sure each issue had a good solid butt shot, or whatever it is that people find attractive about guys.


Both of these are true. Fanservice in mainstream comics is so heavily skewed towards the male gaze, and half of the time it's not even _good_ cheesecake, it's poorly drawn and embarrassing. Look at their gigantic boobs and awkward, spine bending poses! 

Equal opportunity fanservice for everyone, as long as it's done well, can be fun and enjoyable. These comics are about painfully pretty people doing fantastic things, it's not wrong to oogle them. Provided there is a balance and used appropriately, and considering the tongue-in-cheek nature of the fanservice in Grayson, I think it worked here. 




> I find it ironic the Tumblr crowd went after him. My first experience with Tumblr was going on there looking for cool Nightwing pics only to find pics of him making out with all the other Robin's.


Or with Bruce, or Wally, or Roy, or (YJ versions) Connor...




> The real war though is about Anti Grayson, Anti Secret Agent, Anti New 52, *and Anti Dick is Dumb because they emphasize more on his charm and sexiness instead of intelligence.* Grayson's overt sexiness is just the floodgate for all those issues and easy visual they can use to promote that you should not buy this book/portrayal.
> 
> Oh, they still don't like the objectification, but the issue is far deeper than that.


Which is a complaint I never got because Dick was far from dumb in that book. It was actually the most competent he was allowed to be in a while, and (sadly) ever since. 

Some of these fans let their love of fingerstripes blind them to the book's good qualities.

----------


## Restingvoice

I forgot about the finger stripes. They never came back except for Booth's run, didn't they? 
Speaking of Booth's run, remember when I said I found Tumblr because I want to see what's the fuss is about Nightwing's ass? Well, I was kinda disappointed by what I found, because his ass is drawn pretty much the same way as other male characters. Personally I was more impressed by his legs during the NTT days.
That is until Brett Booth did it and actually draw the ass like a balloon. Now that deserves the reputation. XD

----------


## Ascended

> That's because of the amount, and the way it was handled. There are far more sexy women than sexy men, and when it happened, the sexy men still have character. Women are far more often being treated as an eye candy, arm candy, one night stand for the hero or even titilating rape scene like in old B horror movie. While men can be eye candy and an awesome main character at the same time. It's the difference between objectification and being confidently sexy.
> 
> I'm talking about Hollywood though. I don't know the example in comic.


Comics were just as guilty of objectifying women as any other form of entertainment. And odds are they started changing that later than most. But it's been a long time since that sort of attitude got blatantly tossed around. There are still some artists out there who can't resist drawing a character in a ridiculous pose, but everything from costumes to how the characters are written has improved a lot over the last decade.

Anyway, sexual objectification isn't nearly the problem in comics that it used to be. Now I think the issue is finding a balance between "sexy" and "objectified" that most people can live with.

----------


## Frontier



----------


## 9th.

> I didn't mind the overt sexualization of Grayson in theory, but when rereading, I sometimes find it a bit over-the-top. Not in a "this offends my prudish moral standards" way, but in a "this joke is a bit overdone and is starting to become eyerolling" way.


See this is understandable

----------


## 9th.

> 


This is beautiful, is it fanart or official?

----------


## Rac7d*

good his book sales will pick up

plus with Ttians
the word on Nightwing will hit the GP hard

----------


## Ascended

> This is beautiful, is it fanart or official?


Official, as I understand it. But I haven't seen the source yet so take that with a grain of salt. But everyone is treating it like official work on the "Young Justice appreciation" thread.

----------


## Elmo

it's legit
https://www.warnerbros.com/blogs/201...se-coming-2018

----------


## Badou

The image looks great. This is what I wish they would do with Dick in the comics. Have him be part of another team since he isn't really a kid anymore. Leave the Titans/YJ to the younger gen and he can move on to something else.

----------


## Frontier

> The image looks great. This is what I wish they would do with Dick in the comics. Have him be part of another team since he isn't really a kid anymore. Leave the Titans/YJ to the younger gen and he can move on to something else.


It's not the first time he's been part of the Outsiders though he's still on a _Young Justice_ show  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Moonwix

> 


Nice. Nightwing and the outsiders.

----------


## WonderNight

> It's not the first time he's been part of the Outsiders though he's still on a _Young Justice_ show .


So is Batman! But now Nightwing get to be an adult.

----------


## oasis1313

> So is Batman! But now Nightwing get to be an adult.


It looks really good.  I yearn to see Dick hanging around with ANYBODY except the current Titans roster, especially leading an off-beat team--although I can't tell from this if he's leading it or not.

----------


## Dzetoun

Well, the preview for _No Justice #2_ is out. I hate to say this, if only because it seems to run so true to expectations of DC these days, but I'm getting the feeling that Nightwing may have been written out in favor of Green Arrow.

https://www.avclub.com/discover-the-...o-j-1825996244

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

God I hope not. 

No character is better suited to explain why heroes should be trusted to the head of a spy organization.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> So is Batman! But now Nightwing get to be an adult.


Funny thing is I think he's actually younger in YJ. Season 2 he was 18 while Rebirth Dick is like 24(?).

----------


## Dzetoun

> God I hope not. 
> 
> No character is better suited to explain why heroes should be trusted to the head of a spy organization.


Oh, I agree. But, although I loved _Grayson_, DC never really wanted to do what it would take to adequately develop the espionage side of the DCU and emphasize Dick's role in it. It sort of seemed like they would have been very happy for that to take off spontaneously, but when they realized they would really have to put an effort into it, they sort of lost interest. Easier just to do a couple of Batman events and rake in the bucks.

I may be wrong, but I'm getting a feeling something similar happened here. Writing Dick and Waller would have required thought and effort and even some subtlety. With Green Arrow, the political resonance is so obvious they can just go for the easy symbolism and call it a day. That doesn't have much potential to lead anywhere, whereas Nightwing could, in theory, lead into the new _Titans_ series. But, as has been said on several occasions, they don't exactly seem to have that series on the front burner, anyway.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, the preview for _No Justice #2_ is out. I hate to say this, if only because it seems to run so true to expectations of DC these days, but I'm getting the feeling that Nightwing may have been written out in favor of Green Arrow.
> 
> https://www.avclub.com/discover-the-...o-j-1825996244


Just when I was getting my hopes up a little bit.  I should know better . . .

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Oh, I agree. But, although I loved _Grayson_, DC never really wanted to do what it would take to adequately develop the espionage side of the DCU and emphasize Dick's role in it. It sort of seemed like they would have been very happy for that to take off spontaneously, but when they realized they would really have to put an effort into it, they sort of lost interest. Easier just to do a couple of Batman events and rake in the bucks.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I'm getting a feeling something similar happened here. Writing Dick and Waller would have required thought and effort and even some subtlety. With Green Arrow, the political resonance is so obvious they can just go for the easy symbolism and call it a day. That doesn't have much potential to lead anywhere, whereas Nightwing could, in theory, lead into the new _Titans_ series. But, as has been said on several occasions, they don't exactly seem to have that series on the front burner, anyway.


That's true, with GA its so easy to just set up him as the good guy and her as "The Man". 

Whereas Nightwing would see her side a bit more and there would actually be some nuanced discussion.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, the preview for _No Justice #2_ is out. I hate to say this, if only because it seems to run so true to expectations of DC these days, but I'm getting the feeling that Nightwing may have been written out in favor of Green Arrow.
> 
> https://www.avclub.com/discover-the-...o-j-1825996244


LoL Ya, that seems about right...

----------


## yohyoi

> 


Nightwing's new team is great. I love his growth in Young Justice. It is one of the most amazing thing about him.

Robin destined to lead. Nightwing leading the Team. Nightwing leading the Outsiders.

There is trajectory and purpose in him. I love it.

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone else sick of the Dick and Babs ship? Percy is doing a good job, but I hope Dick and Babs stay as friends. I think that relationship has passed and sometimes it's too toxic (Batman Beyond with that disgusting Bat triangle).

I will also vote Grayson for president if he was real. He is a natural leader.

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...enjamin-percy/

----------


## yohyoi

> Well, the preview for _No Justice #2_ is out. I hate to say this, if only because it seems to run so true to expectations of DC these days, but I'm getting the feeling that Nightwing may have been written out in favor of Green Arrow.
> 
> https://www.avclub.com/discover-the-...o-j-1825996244


It's Snyder. So Nightwing will get one cool scene then never be heard again. Like in his Batman run and Metal.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm actually fine with this. I asked for Nightwing vs Waller because he's my favorite and they have contrasting personality, but since Ollie is the senior liberal hero, then he'll be more fitting facing Waller and leading Team Earth. I just didn't thought of him because I was never that interested. I would take offense if the replacement is unfit, but Ollie fits.  

Also, like Whirlwind pointed out, Nightwing is more understanding these days. What I imagined Nightwing vs Waller would be is like Bruce and Dick's fights and shouting match in the 80s to the 2000s, but he's not like that anymore. His fights or arguments with the Batfam mostly consist of him taking the hits and then drop some truth bombs, which I like because he always comes off as the mature and often the correct one. However, No Justice has been established as a bombastic epic with loads and loads of characters, so I wasn't sure there will be enough page time to portray it to my satisfaction anyway. 

I also like to remind again that Nightwing vs Waller is just something I personally want. Snyder never said they would face off or that Nightwing is a team leader. He only said that they will be in the same team.

----------


## Restingvoice

It feels right to be working with Grayson now, who is the optimistic center of this cynical Bat sandwich. While the Waynes don’t smile, Grayson is defined by his stupid Tom Cruise grin. While the Waynes don’t have fun, Grayson is a performative hero who enjoys kicking ass. While the Waynes are inflexible and single-minded and have to be in charge, Grayson is versatile and adaptable and can follow as well as he can lead. While the Waynes use intimidation and fear as weapons, even among their allies, Grayson is one of the most diplomatic characters in the DCU. Dick is not only a great hero–he would make a great president. - Percy

Oh gosh, I wish I can still browse Tumblr just to see the reaction of hearing that Dick is in a Bat Sandwich...

Above, I listed off some of the ways that Grayson is different than the rest of the Bat-family. Here’s another. Batman, Robin, and Batgirl all rely heavily on technology. Sometimes their use of it feels like a bit too much. Even a storytelling cheat. Grayson is not a luddite. Not at all. But he doesn’t even wear a utility belt. There’s something pure about his heroics. He has his batons and his acrobatic martial arts and his intelligence as a detective. It’s interesting to pit him against an enemy he can’t punch. Especially for a physical character like him, but even more generally, since punching is the default in so many comics. There are other ways to fight, and this opens up opportunities for fresh storytelling and character growth.- Percy

Oh hey, he mentioned the lack of utility belt. Well, we know his stance on the matter so he's not gonna be the one adding that to his costume. 

Of course, Damian will show up. I can’t give too much away about the future, but here’s a tease. I’m really proud of a Green Arrow storyline I wrote called “The Return of Roy Harper,” and Arsenal (along with the Titans) will play a central role in an upcoming arc.- Percy

More Dick and Damian is always good. I wonder where the Titans are going to be after No Justice. Unless he's talking about the new team.

----------


## Badou

> It's Snyder. So Nightwing will get one cool scene then never be heard again. Like in his Batman run and Metal.


That one "cool" scene will just be Nightwing getting punched in the face.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yohyoi

> That one "cool" scene will just be Nightwing getting punched in the face.


He is gonna dress as Batman for bait again. "MORRISON CALLBACK!!! HE DID SOMETHING!!!"

----------


## Aahz

> It feels right to be working with Grayson now, who is the optimistic center of this cynical Bat sandwich. While the Waynes don’t smile, Grayson is defined by his stupid Tom Cruise grin. While the Waynes don’t have fun, Grayson is a performative hero who enjoys kicking ass. While the Waynes are inflexible and single-minded and have to be in charge, Grayson is versatile and adaptable and can follow as well as he can lead. While the Waynes use intimidation and fear as weapons, even among their allies, Grayson is one of the most diplomatic characters in the DCU. Dick is not only a great hero–he would make a great president. - Percy
> 
> Oh gosh, I wish I can still browse Tumblr just to see the reaction of hearing that Dick is in a Bat Sandwich...
> 
> Above, I listed off some of the ways that Grayson is different than the rest of the Bat-family. Here’s another. Batman, Robin, and Batgirl all rely heavily on technology. Sometimes their use of it feels like a bit too much. Even a storytelling cheat. Grayson is not a luddite. Not at all. But he doesn’t even wear a utility belt. There’s something pure about his heroics. He has his batons and his acrobatic martial arts and his intelligence as a detective. It’s interesting to pit him against an enemy he can’t punch. Especially for a physical character like him, but even more generally, since punching is the default in so many comics. There are other ways to fight, and this opens up opportunities for fresh storytelling and character growth.- Percy
> 
> Oh hey, he mentioned the lack of utility belt. Well, we know his stance on the matter so he's not gonna be the one adding that to his costume. 
> 
> Of course, Damian will show up. I can’t give too much away about the future, but here’s a tease. I’m really proud of a Green Arrow storyline I wrote called “The Return of Roy Harper,” and Arsenal (along with the Titans) will play a central role in an upcoming arc.- Percy
> ...


Sometimes wonder how much the writers actually read of a characters history. 

Dick has gadgets, he just doesn't have them in a Belt.

I can't remember many stories where Dick was in team and wasn't the leader. And at least the modern incarnation is quite disobedient when it comes to follow orders.

And as leader there are also a lot of examples of him treating his team mates not that great. (And btw. in the classic dynamic of the Titans Donna was probably the most diplomatic member of the team).

----------


## TheCape

> Sometimes wonder how much the writers actually read of a characters history. 
> 
> Dick has gadgets, he just doesn't have them in a Belt.
> 
> I can't remember many stories where Dick was in team and wasn't the leader. And at least the modern incarnation is quite disobedient when it comes to follow orders.
> 
> And as leader there are also a lot of examples of him treating his team mates not that great. (And btw. in the classic dynamic of the Titans Donna was probably the most diplomatic member of the team).


If i learned something about fans turned writters, is that most of then has a very selective memory.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If i learned something about fans turned writters, is that most of then has a very selective memory.


Well, there are hundreds of issues and people started in different places. I want to say people are more likely to read the popular ones, but nah... I think it's more likely that people read a certain run that's being published at the time, plus some sporadic issues or story arcs here and there.

----------


## Moonwix

Whether or not new writers have a full or selective memory, the series will still continued in a permanent state of mediocrity.  Nightwing series in general needs a new direction not nostalgia.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, there are hundreds of issues and people started in different places. I want to say people are more likely to read the popular ones, but nah... I think it's more likely that people read a certain run that's being published at the time, plus some sporadic issues or story arcs here and there.


But the thing is in most team books Dick has been in he has acted pretty Batman like as a leader.

Seriously I have the often the feeling that lots of people (fans and writers) are ignoring the majority of their pre flashpoint appearences when it comes to the characterization of the Robins.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But the thing is in most team books Dick has been in he has acted pretty Batman like as a leader.
> 
> Seriously I have the often the feeling that lots of people (fans and writers) are ignoring the majority of their pre flashpoint appearences when it comes to the characterization of the Robins.


Oh _that_ problem. I don't know who started it, but there's a move to differentiate the Robins more during the New 52. They put more emphasis to Dick being the charming one or the nice one, Jason the bad one, Tim the smart one, Damian the bratty one, and it sometimes show up in their solo.

This was one of the protest against the Grayson team onwards, that Dick is too nice now. He's not as smart or as Batman like he was before in pre-flashpoint.

This is also the reason why the same people are a fan of Abnett Titans, because they see Dick as recognizably being more Batman there. 

At least that's what they said. I don't read Titans.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


A bit late in my reaction because I was distracted by No Justice but THIS LOOKS SO GOOD!

Who's the woman in the stars, the redhead in green and the red skin nonhuman bug-like person?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #45 Textless Variant Cover by John Romita, Jr.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I dislike in this new costume is this stupid belt.


I really like this one. It's not often I see Nightwing portrayed as savage. Head on a stick, even though of course it's a robot, still really striking.

----------


## Aahz

> Who's the woman in the stars, the redhead in green and the red skin nonhuman bug-like person?


The woman in the Stars is Tigress/Artemis Cook (but this version doesn't have much to do with the comic version), the man could be Geoforce, and no idea about the bug thing.

----------


## Moonwix

The red bug like thing might be a parademon. Looks like one.

----------


## oasis1313

> The red bug like thing might be a parademon. Looks like one.


Could it be a new costume for Bumblebee?

----------


## TheCape

That red bug looks like something from TMNT: Fast Foward.

----------


## oasis1313

> That red bug looks like something from TMNT: Fast Foward.


Whatever it is, I like it.  I think offbeat ugly characters are cool.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The woman in the Stars is Tigress/Artemis Cook (but this version doesn't have much to do with the comic version), the man could be Geoforce, and no idea about the bug thing.


Oh yeah, now that you mention it, I recognize her stare and the hair at the top of her head is exactly the same as her old look.

So bugman is a new character?

----------


## Aahz

> So bugman is a new character?


Could also be reimagined Version of an old one (my guess would be Forager). Like I said Artemis is also quite different from comic version.

But there is iirc no member of the Outsiders from the comics who would fit.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, it does seem like Green Arrow will be the one to work with Waller. Nightiwng has been completely benched with the other non JL event heroes it seems. I mean I had zero expectations for Dick in the event as Nightwing is generally useless and uninvolved in these bigger DCU events anyway. He just isn't this "heart of the DCU" and this deeply important figure that many like to claim he is. I'd love it if he was, it would be great, but outside some of his fans saying he is there is zero evidence of him being like this on panel or DC treating the character like this. There seems to be a big disconnect with how DC looks at Nightwing in the DCU and how his fans look at him I think. 

So it isn't really a surprise to me with his role here, but I know some really got their hopes up when Snyder had that quote about some "Earth team" with Waller, but given that we had no promo images, all the focus was on the JL teams, and how there were no pics or promotion of any Earth team I was always doubtful.

----------


## Godlike13

There seems to be a disconnect within DC itself. He’s at the front of 2 upcoming shows on this streaming service they are launching, yet within comics it seemed like a struggle to find a team to take over his book, and it seems they can’t be bothered to come up with new directions or even afford him basic character protection in books they want to sell with him in. Hell Titans seems like it is flat out trying to sabotage the character even. I’ve been so baffled by this disconnect for a while now.

----------


## Restingvoice

The disconnect is clear, which makes me wonder what is with DC?
Compare Nightwing to Harley for example. Both are fan favorites, but Harley is heavily promoted to the point of annoyance. 

The obvious answer is Batman. Whenever there's a poll, Dick Grayson is right below Batman and Superman in popularity. He clears the favorite sidekick and sexiest character poll. His run as Batman is so popular. So DC sees this... american idol ready to explode and say "nononono... hold it... hold it... now calm down... there. Now stay with the kids so you're manageable."

Except from Grayson to Nightwing. That one is actually the fans. 

They do the same thing with Wally, Cassandra, and Stephanie in comparison to Barry and Barbara. 

They don't mind Harley overshadowing Joker though, that's where I'm confused. 

My guess is, just like with Barbara, they happen to like Harley too. DC is not an unfeeling entity after all. They are a group of old people who grew up reading DC and have their own fantasy. So while redhead next door and wild sexy females are theirs, but not hot young Dick.

----------


## Restingvoice

No wait, I realized something. They don't mind Harley overshadowing Joker in popularity because she's more of a hero now and has her own place in Suicide Squad and her own city in Coney Island. So Joker is still the king of Gotham villains. They have different roles now and playing in different field, so they don't overshadow each other.

Nightwing, on the other hand, even though he's moved from Gotham, he still maintains a connection to the Bat-family and the larger DCU through the Titans who also have similar problem. 

The difference with Harley and Joker is he's still playing the same game in the same field as Batman. As Titans, they're playing in the same field as the League. So they're not allowed to expand and potentially overshadow their mentors who are preferred by the DC higher ups.

----------


## Badou

> There seems to be a disconnect within DC itself. He’s at the front of 2 upcoming shows on this streaming service they are launching, yet within comics it seemed like a struggle to find a team to take over his book, and it seems they can’t be bothered to come up with new directions or even afford him basic character protection in books they want to sell with him in. Hell Titans seems like it is flat out trying to sabotage the character even. I’ve been so baffled by this disconnect for a while now.


But neither of those shows are called "Nightwing". Sure, they could promote him better given he is appearing in two shows, but at the same time neither of those shows are built around the property of Nightwing. They are a Titans and a Young Justice show and he is just a part of them. So to expect them to treat the character the same as a character that actually has their own show or movie build around their own identity isn't the same I think. 

It's just I keep seeing fans talk about how important and how he is the "heart of the DCU" but I have not seen any evidence of this in the actual comics. I feel like it sets up these expectations that are never going to be realized because DC does not see the property of Nightwing as being what some fans think it is. To me this feels like another example of expectations not lining up with reality.

----------


## TheCape

One time i hear the theory, that editors dislike Dick Grayson Nightwing because his existence automatically age Batman, i always thougth than that was nonsense, but sometimes i can't help but wonder.

As for him being the "Heart" of the DCU, eh i always saw that as more of a fan interpretation than anything else and frankly that just give him the same problem that Superman (and to an extent Batman) has, the expectations are so hight that is unlikely that they line up to reality.

----------


## Moonwix

> No wait, I realized something. They don't mind Harley overshadowing Joker in popularity because she's more of a hero now and has her own place in Suicide Squad and her own city in Coney Island. So Joker is still the king of Gotham villains. They have different roles now and playing in different field, so they don't overshadow each other.
> 
> Nightwing, on the other hand, even though he's moved from Gotham, he still maintains a connection to the Bat-family and the larger DCU through the Titans who also have similar problem. 
> 
> The difference with Harley and Joker is he's still playing the same game in the same field as Batman. As Titans, they're playing in the same field as the League. So they're not allowed to expand and potentially overshadow their mentors who are preferred by the DC higher ups.


You do have a point though, DC does have a problem with promoting legacy characters in general.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Badou is right, Dick Leads the Titans, Becomes Batman Of Bludhaven when solo, Becomes Second in Command when With Batman. You cant be the center if the NEVER will plan an event around you or your entire family history gets retconned to revolve around Batman or you cant pursue relationships because you are stuck in a fan ship that they say is endgame. Charles Grayson is a character that has existed in the DCU since 1,942 and was responsible for creating the first Robotman character and the only time he has interacted with Richard Grayson is in one comic done by Roy Thomas, George Grayson tried to profit from dicks parents loss and no resolution has been done for that action. Aunt Harriet is MIA. The one family member we have seen is William Cobb who is the relative that revolves around Batman the most. The Crowne Family through Amelia & William are completely out of the picture. Dick cant get a single arc that doesnt revolve around Batman in a subtle way.

----------


## Godlike13

> But neither of those shows are called "Nightwing". Sure, they could promote him better given he is appearing in two shows, but at the same time neither of those shows are built around the property of Nightwing. They are a Titans and a Young Justice show and he is just a part of them. So to expect them to treat the character the same as a character that actually has their own show or movie build around their own identity isn't the same I think. 
> 
> It's just I keep seeing fans talk about how important and how he is the "heart of the DCU" but I have not seen any evidence of this in the actual comics. I feel like it sets up these expectations that are never going to be realized because DC does not see the property of Nightwing as being what some fans think it is. To me this feels like another example of expectations not lining up with reality.


Regardless if those shows are not called Nightwing, he is a major part of both, and isn't just some passer by. And its not like we haven't seen them make plans or investments for stuff like a Nightwing movie. It shows that there are those within DC that do want to do more with the character. Because in a way they are. Yet within comics he remains seemily low priority, even in those very properties they are trying to sell with him as a major part of. So even if the shows aren't solo branded Nightwing, theres is a clear and obvious disconnect there nevertheless. Not with just how some fans see him compared to DC, but with how DC themselves are using him.

----------


## Godlike13

BTW, as to Nightwings role in No Justice. I’m dying right now. Too funny.

----------


## Dzetoun

> BTW, as to Nightwings role in No Justice. I’m dying right now. Too funny.


Care to elaborate, just out of curiosity?

----------


## Godlike13

*spoilers:*
He's unconscious in a tube. Thats all.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Lazurus33

*spoilers:*
nojus2.jpg
*end of spoilers*

What happened to the team he was supposed to be on?

----------


## BloodOps

They put him in a fucking tube?

He should be leading a team for fucks sake.

----------


## Godlike13

Crap hand for Aquaman too i must say.

----------


## dietrich

I feel like with the movie, Titans tv show, Yj3 and TTGO! that DC is on the verge of a major Nightwing/DickGrayson push. It's disappointing to hear about his role in No Justice but I remain hopeful

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Ha I was just about to say that until Nightwing blows up in live action, he's going to continue to be sidelined and worfed in major DC stories. 

They just don't give a shit about him beyond putting up just enough for us to buy and at this point its really obvious.

DC is invested in ensuring there is a Nightwing book, and a Titans book, but I don't think they care about the quality/direction of either.

----------


## Frontier

> Crap hand for Aquaman too i must say.


I was about to say (poor Donna too)...

----------


## Aahz

> As for him being the "Heart" of the DCU, eh i always saw that as more of a fan interpretation than anything else and frankly that just give him the same problem that Superman (and to an extent Batman) has, the expectations are so hight that is unlikely that they line up to reality.


Dick is imo not even the "Heart" of the teams he is in.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Dick is imo not even the "Heart" of the teams he is in.


Well, that isn't very appreciative.

But in my opinion DC universe has been without a heart since the new 52, not sure how any of that adds something to the discussion though

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick is imo not even the "Heart" of the teams he is in.


He's not, he's the face. The team he's on has no substance let alone a heart.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It's just I keep seeing fans talk about how important and how he is the "heart of the DCU" but I have not seen any evidence of this in the actual comics. I feel like it sets up these expectations that are never going to be realized because DC does not see the property of Nightwing as being what some fans think it is. To me this feels like another example of expectations not lining up with reality.


I think an argument can be made that Dick is one of the major pillars of the DCU, chiefly due to his role as the first, longest lasting and most prolific Robin. But "Nightwing", the role itself, not so much. It's telling that the most interesting directions Dick has had in recent years had nothing to do with Nightwing.

----------


## TheCape

> Dick is imo not even the "Heart" of the teams he is in.


I don't think that he has ever been the heart of any team, except for James Robinson JLA run.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ha I was just about to say that until Nightwing blows up in live action, he's going to continue to be sidelined and worfed in major DC stories. 
> 
> They just don't give a shit about him beyond putting up just enough for us to buy and at this point its really obvious.
> 
> DC is invested in ensuring there is a Nightwing book, and a Titans book, but I don't think they care about the quality/direction of either.


can they give me more merch

----------


## Dzetoun

> They put him in a fucking tube?
> 
> He should be leading a team for fucks sake.


Yeah, thats a disappointment. Then again, Green Arrow comes off as pretty helpless in this issue, even compared to Waller with all her mistakes, so if thats the role Nightwing was supposed to play, to this point he hasnt missed much.

----------


## yohyoi

Even No Justice admits the Titans suck. Jesus Christ, why is Nightwing stuck in this loser team?!

Please put Dick back to his New Teen Titans colleagues. The 60's Teen Titans are just baggage to him right now. There is a reason this team was never popular. The team are a bunch of forgotten characters aside from Nightwing.

Wally - Replaced as Flash. Forgotten by everyone, especially DC.
Donna - Multitude of origins. Nothing makes sense in her.
Garth - Garth who?
Roy - New52 Red Hood's #2 a.k.a. Lowest selling Robin's #2. That gotta suck.

I can't wait for this team to be replaced. This is one of Nightwing's lowest points these past decades. If Nightwing didn't have a good solo run right now, God help us all.

----------


## yohyoi

> He's not, he's the face. The team he's on has no substance let alone a heart.


Its' heart is a CW written mess that is as bad as Olicity. The whole run has been CW episodes in comic form. Someone call Guggie because Abnett has overtaken him. Hopefully it's just a ghost writer so Titans have a chance to improve in the future.

----------


## Aioros22

> Even No Justice admits the Titans suck. Jesus Christ, why is Nightwing stuck in this loser team?!
> 
> Please put Dick back to his New Teen Titans colleagues. The 60's Teen Titans are just baggage to him right now. There is a reason this team was never popular. The team are a bunch of forgotten characters aside from Nightwing.
> 
> Wally - Replaced as Flash. Forgotten by everyone, especially DC.
> Donna - Multitude of origins. Nothing makes sense in her.
> Garth - Garth who?
> Roy - New52 Red Hood's #2 a.k.a. Lowest selling Robin's #2. That gotta suck.
> 
> I can't wait for this team to be replaced. This is one of Nightwing's lowest points these past decades. If Nightwing didn't have a good solo run right now, God help us all.


The hurt is real.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Even No Justice admits the Titans suck. Jesus Christ, why is Nightwing stuck in this loser team?!
> 
> Please put Dick back to his New Teen Titans colleagues. The 60's Teen Titans are just baggage to him right now. There is a reason this team was never popular. The team are a bunch of forgotten characters aside from Nightwing.
> 
> Wally - Replaced as Flash. Forgotten by everyone, especially DC.
> Donna - Multitude of origins. Nothing makes sense in her.
> Garth - Garth who?
> Roy - New52 Red Hood's #2 a.k.a. Lowest selling Robin's #2. That gotta suck.
> 
> I can't wait for this team to be replaced. This is one of Nightwing's lowest points these past decades. If Nightwing didn't have a good solo run right now, God help us all.


Titans sells wellm their not allowed to make a difference
the team is good they rival the justice league and thatss the problems the jsutice league cannot have a rival, you should only turn to one group and thats them
so    nerfed

----------


## Godlike13

Thats not on JL or Batman. Its on management and the creators. Its not like Batman went to Abnett and told him to spend 2 years dissecting the Titans, so that he can illustrate to readers why they suck as he he turns their most popular members into mockeries of themselves.

----------


## Restingvoice

I want to say I'll wait and see if the heroes tube will be opened later so they will join the fight once the Omega Titans reach earth, but my problem with DC is way bigger than heroes switching roles in one story. 

I'm already not buying anything because I disagree with the way DC tell and sell its story in general with its lack of consistency, so anything they do curb my hype is only preventing me from going back and remind me why I stop. Hype is pretty much the only reason I'm interested right now. Hype gone I'm gone, because what's left is a mess of worldbuilding.

As for Dick being the heart of anything, if I'm not mistaken it's a point of view that's more about his role in legacy than anything in the story, brought up during the time where he's supposed to die in Infinite Crisis. The first sidekick, the leader of the sidekicks, the mediator between the adult heroes and the younger, and someone who's been a hero since he's really young so he's grown up in it. 

It's a symbolic role, not an active one. It's not something that you can really make into a story unless it involves a lot of people or is about the conflict between the older and younger heroes like that one issue in Geoff Johns Teen Titans. It's something that is missed when he's gone but not really utilized when he's around.

Kinda like how people realize that, during early New 52, without Damian by his side, Titans and Teen Titans disappeared, and Justice League is distant, Dick has nothing, but now that he has it all back, they don't know what to do with it.

Which makes me question, is it DCU that needs Dick or Dick that needs the DCU?

----------


## Badou

> Regardless if those shows are not called Nightwing, he is a major part of both, and isn't just some passer by. And its not like we haven't seen them make plans or investments for stuff like a Nightwing movie. It shows that there are those within DC that do want to do more with the character. Because in a way they are. Yet within comics he remains seemily low priority, even in those very properties they are trying to sell with him as a major part of. So even if the shows aren't solo branded Nightwing, theres is a clear and obvious disconnect there nevertheless. Not with just how some fans see him compared to DC, but with how DC themselves are using him.


But DC hasn't really changed their use of Nightwing. They have been consistent. It isn't like he was getting some massive push before Dick became Batman or after he stopped being Batman in the New 52 and went back to Nightwing. This is what Nightwing is. This is what the Titans are with Nigthwing too. This event I think is just DC being consistent with their treatment of these properties. When it comes down to it Nigthwing will always be 3rd behind Batman and Robin. So he is competing against two of DC's foundational characters for promotion and relevance and it is a competition he is never going to win. Same with the Titans verses the JL, but we've discussed that topic to death by now. 

And I get it. I think he should and would love for DC/WB to promote Nightwing more. With a live action TV show coming and YJ back you would expect they would treat the property better or have plans to promote it, but he isn't going to be Nightwing in that Titans show (maybe at the end he will) but all the promotion is going to be with him as Robin for now, and I have no confidence that Nightwing movie will ever happen. So I still think there is a big difference in putting a character's name on something verses that character just appearing in something. It speaks to a different kind of commitment in the property. If this Titans TV show was called Nightwing then I think expectations would be correct where that big comic push should come. 




> As for Dick being the heart of anything, if I'm not mistaken it's a point of view that's more about his role in legacy than anything in the story, brought up during the time where he's supposed to die in Infinite Crisis. The first sidekick, the leader of the sidekicks, the mediator between the adult heroes and the younger, and someone who's been a hero since he's really young so he's grown up in it. 
> 
> It's a symbolic role, not an active one. It's not something that you can make into a story unless the story is about the conflict between the older and younger heroes like that one issue in Geoff Johns Teen Titans. It's something that will be missed when he's gone but not really needed when he's around.


I don't think that is it exactly. Maybe it plays a role, but the whole "heart" thing is basically the same thing as when fans also call Dick/Nightwing "the greatest leader in the DCU" when there is no evidence to back that up in the comics or that anyone at DC actually views the character like that. That is why I think there is such a big disconnect between what some fans think the character is in the DCU verses what he actually is. I'd love for Nightwing to be the "heart" of the DCU and looked at as their greatest leader, and what all those things would entail, but I know that is not true because of the stories I've read. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the JL will always be far, far more in line with those roles because of who they are and how DC views them and uses them.

----------


## Restingvoice

No, I get it, but fans get that impression because they saw him lead the Teen Titans, the Titans, and the League. They dub him DCU's greatest leader and the heart because he's shown to be able to handle, communicate or bridge DCU heroes of all ages unlike the trinity who can come off as annoying parents to the younger ones.

The scenes are in the books, but it's a conclusion they decided on their own after realizing it what those scenes imply. So it's not completely out of nowhere but It's definitely not on purpose by DC.

I'm also kinda disappointed once I realized that because I see what they meant and I see the potential. Fans are the gate to comic book world but they often set unrealistic expectations.

Speaking of expectations, I'm gonna remind again that Snyder never said Nightwing is leading any team! It's CBR who said that! He only said Nightwing is in a team with Waller, so we can only call Snyder a liar if Waller and Ollie don't release the heroes and make a team that includes Nightwing.

----------


## WonderNight

> No, I get it, but fans get that impression because they saw him lead the Teen Titans, the Titans, and the League. They dub him DCU's greatest leader and the heart because he's shown to be able to handle, communicate or bridge DCU heroes of all ages unlike the trinity who can come off as annoying parents to the younger ones.
> 
> The scenes are in the books, but it's a conclusion they decided on their own after realizing it what those scenes imply. It's definitely not on purpose by DC, but it's not an out of nowhere conclusion either. 
> 
> It's kinda like how people conclude Batman is a bad father because of the number of Robins who died, or how Batman's no killing rule means he's responsible for many deaths, or that Nightwing is a womanizer because he's dating different women in different books at the same time. It clearly wasn't mean to be that way, but it can be read that way because of the way DC structure their stories.
> 
> ...and right now I'm about to go into a rant about DC's storytelling and publication method, their attitude towards continuity and how they keep sending mix messages about how their stories should be viewed by fans, so I'll stop now.


but dick cant be the bridge because he has no relationships with the adult heroes outside of batman. outside of tim seeley no one uses superman/nightwing, as for wonder woman, flash, the GL's, aquaman, green arrow, harley, black canary, zatanna, atom, hawkman, hawkgirl, black lightning and even cyborg. dick has almost no relationship with anyone them.
 It's all younger heroes.

----------


## Restingvoice

> but dick cant be the bridge because he has no relationships with the adult heroes outside of batman. outside of tim seeley no one uses superman/nightwing, as for wonder woman, flash, the GL's, aquaman, green arrow, harley, black canary, zatanna, atom, hawkman, hawkgirl, black lightning and even cyborg. dick has almost no relationship with anyone them.
>  It's all younger heroes.


At present. This continuity. The fans were talking about post crisis and before. That's where all the scans I saw came from. The fans I'm talking about are post crisis fans who then protest New 52 for his lack of connection. They want that status and connections back, and yeah, there's probably some wrong expectation if they want those back but don't care if it make sense or not.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick is imo not even the "Heart" of the teams he is in.


He's the "butt" of any team he's on.

----------


## Godlike13

> But DC hasn't really changed their use of Nightwing. They have been consistent. It isn't like he was getting some massive push before Dick became Batman or after he stopped being Batman in the New 52 and went back to Nightwing. This is what Nightwing is. This is what the Titans are with Nigthwing too. This event I think is just DC being consistent with their treatment of these properties. When it comes down to it Nigthwing will always be 3rd behind Batman and Robin. So he is competing against two of DC's foundational characters for promotion and relevance and it is a competition he is never going to win. Same with the Titans verses the JL, but we've discussed that topic to death by now. 
> 
> And I get it. I think he should and would love for DC/WB to promote Nightwing more. With a live action TV show coming and YJ back you would expect they would treat the property better or have plans to promote it, but he isn't going to be Nightwing in that Titans show (maybe at the end he will) but all the promotion is going to be with him as Robin for now, and I have no confidence that Nightwing movie will ever happen. So I still think there is a big difference in putting a character's name on something verses that character just appearing in something. It speaks to a different kind of commitment in the property. If this Titans TV show was called Nightwing then I think expectations would be correct where that big comic push should come.


Except they have. Nightwing and Dick has more going on for him outside of comics then he maybe ever has before. Dick isn’t just appearing in these shows. He is a staring character, and is at the forefront of them even. And while we might not see the Nightwing movie, though we also might, the fact that they signed a director shows that there are those within DC that want to do those kinds of things with character, and see that for the character.

Yet in comics its a struggle for them to even find consistent creative talent for his book, or even keep basic consistency with his direction. Because quite frankly it doesn’t seem like they can be bothered to sit down and really come up with one for him. And in Titans it seem like they are flat out trying to sabotage the character. Despite him being the guy they are going to continue to try and sell the Titans with. Which makes no friggin sense to me. So it’s not even about him getting pushed more in comics, at this point it looks to be a struggle for them to even protect what they have with him. 

It’s weird. On one hand Dick is a character it seems they see potential in, where they got him in shows and are signing directors for a potential movie, and on the other he seems like a character they don’t really want to be bothered with despite his consistent sustainability in that very market. Where he’s easily fed to push characters they seemly don’t even have any real plans or expectations for, and is pushed to side even though they want him to sell twice a month, like a JLer, and help sell teams. 
 So ya, I think there is a very apparent disconnect there. Not just with fans and DC, but within DC itself. And in other ways too. Just take this upcoming new Titans direction for example. How do they go from feeding the character to a character like Roy Harper on his way off to limbo, and mocking the very concept behind the character for being the JLs bitch, to remodeling the team with Nightwing yet again at the helm working even more closely with the JL. It makes no damn sense. Where is the connection there between what they were just doing with the Titans and the character, and what they are going to do.

----------


## Restingvoice

Just to clarify.

The fans who consider Nightwing the heart and leader of DCU conclude it after seeing his ability leading Teen Titans, Titans, and Justice League, plus bridging the older and younger heroes on the ocassional stories that he does. These stories happened during Pre to Post Crisis.

It's not what DC meant to portray Dick Grayson on purpose, but it's a conclusion that fans came after seeing what can do throughout his publications, which they feel validated when Didio decided to kill him off in Infinite Crisis because he'll have the biggest impact, and Johns stopping him for the same reason. 

After that came New 52, and with it, Dick lost his connection to the people he knew from Pre to Post Crisis. The fans are angry and they want those connections back. They keep promoting about Dick being the heart so that new fans will know what they miss with New 52. 
(This is what happened to me when I first read with New 52) 

And then there was Rebirth. Titans are back. Nightwing is blue again. He's in Bludhaven again. They announced that Rebirth are for old fans. These are signs that things are going to be how it used to be. So from Rebirth came Hype and with Hype came Expectations. Old fans are looking forward to see Nightwing portrayed with his full potential.  

So... now here we are.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yet in comics its a struggle for them to even find consistent creative talent for his book, or even keep basic consistency with his direction. Because quite frankly it doesn’t seem like they can be bothered to sit down and really come up with one for him. And in Titans it seem like they are flat out trying to sabotage the character. Despite him being the guy they are going to continue to try and sell the Titans with. Which makes no friggin sense to me. So it’s not even about him getting pushed more in comics, at this point it looks to be a struggle for them to even protect what they have with him. 
> 
> It’s weird. One one hand Dick is a character it seems they see potential in, where they got him in shows and are signing directors for a potential movie, and on the other he seems like a character they don’t really want to be bothered with despite his consistent sustainability in that very market. Where he’s easily fed to push characters they seemly don’t even have any real plans or expectations for, and is pushed to side even though they want him to sell twice a month, like a JLer, and help sell teams. 
>  So ya, I think there is a very apparent disconnect there. Not just with fans and DC, but within DC itself. And it’s in many forms. Just take this upcoming new Titans direction for example. How do they go from feeding the character to a character like Roy Harper on his way off to limbo, and mocking the very concept behind the character for being the JLs bitch, to remodeling the the team with him yet again at the helm working even more closely with the JL. It makes no damn sense. Where is the connection there between what they were just doing with the character and what they are going to do.


Oh it super makes sense once I realized it.
He's used in marketing because they know he's popular. He's their Lucky Cat to attract customers.
He's not developed further because they don't want him to overshadow Batman the same way Titans are not supposed to be better than Justice League. They know he has enough fans to sustain a title despite nothing happening, so they don't have to try too hard.
Experimental title like Grayson? No problem. Dick has fans. 
New writer? Test it with Dick Grayson. He'll sell it for them and if it's good they can transfer the writer to Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> The fans who consider Nightwing the heart and leader of DCU conclude it after seeing his ability leading Teen Titans, Titans, and Justice League, plus bridging the older and younger heroes on the ocassional stories that he does. These stories happened during Pre to Post Crisis.


When did he "bridging the older and younger heroes"?

For me it often feels more like his leadership abilities are an "informed ability" that something you see on page.

----------


## Restingvoice

> When did he "bridging the older and younger heroes"?
> 
> For me it often feels more like his leadership abilities are an "informed ability" that something you see on page.


That one time when Justice League and Teen Titans fight in Geoff Johns story
That's the only scan they give me. 
Didn't think I need more at the time because being new I just thought that's what he always is

So is it actually just that one scene?

(Oh yeah speaking of TV Tropes, they also mention Dick as The Heart, and a lot of people read TV Tropes)

----------


## Godlike13

Obsidian Age was pretty awesome. But truth be told he has been just coasting when it comes to that label for a while now. Though a lot of that also has to do with the teams that they usually put him on being poorly written and lazily done.

----------


## Aahz

> That one time when Justice League and Teen Titans fight in Geoff Johns story


Which story? Johns wrote quite a lot of stuff.

----------


## Aahz

> TOh yeah speaking of TV Tropes, they also mention Dick as The Heart, and a lot of people read TV Tropes


The problem with TV tropes is that is is written by fans, so common misconceptions within the fan base might pop up there.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Which story? Johns wrote quite a lot of stuff.


His Teen Titans. Forgot which issue. Climax of the first arc I think.

This one.

OCT030263_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Even No Justice admits the Titans suck. Jesus Christ, why is Nightwing stuck in this loser team?!
> 
> Please put Dick back to his New Teen Titans colleagues. The 60's Teen Titans are just baggage to him right now. There is a reason this team was never popular. The team are a bunch of forgotten characters aside from Nightwing.
> 
> Wally - Replaced as Flash. Forgotten by everyone, especially DC.
> Donna - Multitude of origins. Nothing makes sense in her.
> Garth - Garth who?
> Roy - New52 Red Hood's #2 a.k.a. Lowest selling Robin's #2. That gotta suck.
> 
> I can't wait for this team to be replaced. This is one of Nightwing's lowest points these past decades. If Nightwing didn't have a good solo run right now, God help us all.


I disagree with Wally, because I think he has enough of a fanbase that he's not completely forgotten. 

But yeah, I agree that if Nightwing is going to be the face of Titans then he should get his Titans. Lean into the dyanmic from the show and have them be actual modern young adults who actually seem like they're good friends.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh it super makes sense once I realized it.
> He's used in marketing because they know he's popular. He's their Lucky Cat to attract customers.
> He's not developed further because they don't want him to overshadow Batman the same way Titans are not supposed to be better than Justice League. They know he has enough fans to sustain a title despite nothing happening, so they don't have to try too hard.
> Experimental title like Grayson? No problem. Dick has fans. 
> New writer? Test it with Dick Grayson. He'll sell it for them and if it's good they can transfer the writer to Batman.


I'm not sure that King would have been shuffled off to Batman at all IF more "Nightwing" fans had bothered to try _Grayson_ instead of complaining about the book's very existence at every opportunity and refusing to buy it on principle because he was "not Nightwing" . Personally, I felt that _Grayson_ was a far better "Nightwing" book then ANY of the books that went by that name but that's just my opinion. DC heard the sirens call of nostalgia though because "fans" and now we've got "Nightwing" back with all the problems that have become associated with the name. Dick Grayson needs stories that are going to challenge the character, that will elevate him and that will move his character forward instead of backward. Things like NTT, his stint as Batman and Grayson did those things yet somehow editorial and writers are continually stymied by him being "Nightwing" to even attempt any such thing while his is called by that name. It's mind-boggling.

----------


## OWL45

> I'm not sure that King would have been shuffled off to Batman at all IF more "Nightwing" fans had bothered to try _Grayson_ instead of complaining about the book's very existence at every opportunity and refusing to buy it on principle because he was "not Nightwing" . Personally, I felt that _Grayson_ was a far better "Nightwing" book then ANY of the books that went by that name but that's just my opinion. DC heard the sirens call of nostalgia though because "fans" and now we've got "Nightwing" back with all the problems that have become associated with the name. Dick Grayson needs stories that are going to challenge the character, that will elevate him and that will move his character forward instead of backward. Things like NTT, his stint as Batman and Grayson did those things yet somehow editorial and writers are continually stymied by him being "Nightwing" to even attempt any such thing while his is called by that name. It's mind-boggling.


I agree with you 100 percent. Sadly the fans put the character back in this position.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'm not sure that King would have been shuffled off to Batman at all IF more "Nightwing" fans had bothered to try _Grayson_ instead of complaining about the book's very existence at every opportunity and refusing to buy it on principle because he was "not Nightwing" . Personally, I felt that _Grayson_ was a far better "Nightwing" book then ANY of the books that went by that name but that's just my opinion. DC heard the sirens call of nostalgia though because "fans" and now we've got "Nightwing" back with all the problems that have become associated with the name. Dick Grayson needs stories that are going to challenge the character, that will elevate him and that will move his character forward instead of backward. Things like NTT, his stint as Batman and Grayson did those things yet somehow editorial and writers are continually stymied by him being "Nightwing" to even attempt any such thing while his is called by that name. It's mind-boggling.





> I agree with you 100 percent. Sadly the fans put the character back in this position.


Yep. Dicks back in the shitter because fans didn't want to try something new, despite the fact that the old had never lead to anything worthwhile beyond basic sustainability.

----------


## Godlike13

Fans bought Grayson. Rebirth was a line wide thing. Plus quite frankly it shouldn't matter whether he's Nightwing or not when it comes to creative innovation. This is not on "fans", or Nightwing for that matter. Nightwing isn't some tangible authority that stops creators from creating or something, and sustainability should be advantageous to them creating. Also Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman. Lets be real here.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm not sure that King would have been shuffled off to Batman at all IF more "Nightwing" fans had bothered to try _Grayson_ instead of complaining about the book's very existence at every opportunity and refusing to buy it on principle because he was "not Nightwing" . Personally, I felt that _Grayson_ was a far better "Nightwing" book then ANY of the books that went by that name but that's just my opinion. DC heard the sirens call of nostalgia though because "fans" and now we've got "Nightwing" back with all the problems that have become associated with the name. Dick Grayson needs stories that are going to challenge the character, that will elevate him and that will move his character forward instead of backward. Things like NTT, his stint as Batman and Grayson did those things yet somehow editorial and writers are continually stymied by him being "Nightwing" to even attempt any such thing while his is called by that name. It's mind-boggling.


No... even without fans complaining about Grayson Rebirth will happen eventually because DC's sale was at all time low, and with Rebirth their plan is to cash in on nostalgia. So Dick's return to Nightwing is going to happen either way. 

Also, Snyder is one of the top writers of DC. There's no reason to shove him off Batman beside if he's calling it quit. Even then he's not really quitting. He continues with All-Star Batman and Metal. Snyder could've just continue with Batman but DC still want Tom King because he's the hot new writer for a hot new line. 

Speaking of Snyder, I was talking about him too. He went straight to writing Batman in Detective Comics, but the Batman is Dick. After Black Mirror proves to be successful and critically acclaimed, they gave him the real Batman.

----------


## Fergus

> No... even without fans complaining about Grayson Rebirth will happen eventually because DC's sale was at all time low, and with Rebirth their plan is to cash in on nostalgia. So Dick's return to Nightwing is going to happen either way. 
> 
> Also, Snyder is one of the top writers of DC. There's no reason to shove him off Batman beside if he's calling it quit. Even then he's not really quitting. He continues with All-Star Batman and Metal. Snyder could've just continue with Batman but DC still want Tom King because he's the hot new writer for a hot new line. 
> 
> Speaking of Snyder, I was talking about him too. He went straight to writing Batman in Detective Comics, but the Batman is Dick. After Black Mirror proves to be successful and critically acclaimed, they gave him the real Batman.


Synder moved on of his own accord and King got the Batman gig thanks to Synder [according to King speaking at a con panel]

Grayson was a great direction for Dick. DC should have carried on with the series.

I don't Dick on any Titans teams let him try new things and new team ups. A Nightwing and ....... series.

Issue 1 Mera, Issue 2 Jason Blood and so forth.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Fans bought Grayson. Rebirth was a line wide thing. Plus quite frankly it shouldn't matter whether he's Nightwing or not when it comes to creative innovation. This is not on "fans", or Nightwing for that matter. Nightwing isn't some tangible authority that stops creators from creating or something, and sustainability should be advantageous to them creating. Also Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman. Lets be real here.


Not enough fans apparently. 

Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman, but if he didn't have much on his plate at the time, he could have maybe written both.

And while Nightwing doesn't actively prevent creators from innovation, the fact is there is a long history of not much innovation being done with the property. How many years has he been in the identity, with several ongoings, and how many stories are there that are regarded as classics? Becoming Nightwing in Judas Contract is pretty much it. And the story as a whole isn't even just about him. They had the chance with Nightwing Rebirth to do some new stories with him, but they shackled the creative team to Bludhaven, same old stuff he was doing before Agent 37. The Nightwing movie likely won't happen in the foreseeable future, Nightwing is part of an ensemble in YJ, and the big other media push he's getting otherwise is as Robin. His solo his in a rut that can't hold on to a creative team, and the Titans in general need a massive kick in the ass that never seems to come.

----------


## Drako

Here is a new inverview by Percy with a new (old) topic for the people to complain about discuss. 

He talks about how Babs is really important to this arc.

Enjoy!

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...enjamin-percy/

----------


## TheCape

> Not enough fans apparently. 
> 
> Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman, but if he didn't have much on his plate at the time, he could have maybe written both.
> 
> And while Nightwing doesn't actively prevent creators from innovation, the fact is there is a long history of not much innovation being done with the property. How many years has he been in the identity, with several ongoings, and how many stories are there that are regarded as classics? Becoming Nightwing in Judas Contract is pretty much it. And the story as a whole isn't even just about him. They had the chance with Nightwing Rebirth to do some new stories with him, but they shackled the creative team to Bludhaven, same old stuff he was doing before Agent 37. The Nightwing movie likely won't happen in the foreseeable future, Nightwing is part of an ensemble in YJ, and the big other media push he's getting otherwise is as Robin. His solo his in a rut that can't hold on to a creative team, and the Titans in general need a massive kick in the ass that never seems to come.


Grayson sold numbers that were pretty similar to the any of the Nightwing ongoings thougth.

----------


## WonderNight

one of the problems that dick has as nightwing that people really dont talk about is that as nightwing he has to carry the weight of a entire generation. A generation that is second tier and DC doesn't know what to do with.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Here is a new inverview by Percy with a new (old) topic for the people to complain about discuss. 
> 
> He talks about how Babs is really important to this arc.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...enjamin-percy/


I will take the initiative for complaining, I understand DickXBabs but I guess I’m just someone who will never see it as something good for Nightwing in heavy doses. I loved Black Mirror but they were more friends than lovers and didn’t interact in every issue plus Black Mirror was a Gordon story in a year one way. Not a major complaint but I do wish he could have a love interest that can develop naturally rather than a constant swing back.

----------


## Godlike13

> Not enough fans apparently. 
> 
> Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman, but if he didn't have much on his plate at the time, he could have maybe written both.
> 
> And while Nightwing doesn't actively prevent creators from innovation, the fact is there is a long history of not much innovation being done with the property. How many years has he been in the identity, with several ongoings, and how many stories are there that are regarded as classics? Becoming Nightwing in Judas Contract is pretty much it. And the story as a whole isn't even just about him. They had the chance with Nightwing Rebirth to do some new stories with him, but they shackled the creative team to Bludhaven, same old stuff he was doing before Agent 37. The Nightwing movie likely won't happen in the foreseeable future, Nightwing is part of an ensemble in YJ, and the big other media push he's getting otherwise is as Robin. His solo his in a rut that can't hold on to a creative team, and the Titans in general need a massive kick in the ass that never seems to come.


Wishful thinking. Grayson was lucky for us, but an atypical situation for both Seeley and King. 

They have a chance with evey issue of Nightwing to do some new stories with him, it’s not Nightwing thats preventing this. Nightwing gets what it is given. Nightwing doesn’t see the kinds of creative talent or freedom that make for classic runs. He got Dixon, which like it or not, was a successful run, but after that there was no one (and there unfortunately was a reason for that). That’s the big difference between his time as Batman and with Grayson. With Batman he was being written by Grant Morrison, and Grayson was blind luck. They fumbled into that. And even with Grayson it’s not like they even let them finish it. Grayson was great, but it was always gonna lead back into Nightwing. And quite frankly it should not have mattered. They could have called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson and it wouldn’t have changed anything. Nightwing is not the problem. A sustainable brand is advantageous. They shouldn’t just throw that away. I loved Grayson, and while we might not see a Nightwing movie anytime soon, and Nightwing might be part of an ensemble in YJ, and he might be starting as Robin in Titans, but Nightwing still has 25+ more years as a brand and far more exposer then Agent 37 has. That’s not nothing. Believe it or not, in the long run, it’s not in Dicks best interest to just start over. Ideally incorporating Grayson into Nightwing was where it should have eventually gone. Course Rebirth happened and they just jammed it together. Which was unfortunate and far from the ideal way of doing it.

----------


## Aahz

> And while Nightwing doesn't actively prevent creators from innovation, the fact is there is a long history of not much innovation being done with the property. How many years has he been in the identity, with several ongoings, and how many stories are there that are regarded as classics? Becoming Nightwing in Judas Contract is pretty much it. And the story as a whole isn't even just about him. They had the chance with Nightwing Rebirth to do some new stories with him, but they shackled the creative team to Bludhaven, same old stuff he was doing before Agent 37. The Nightwing movie likely won't happen in the foreseeable future, Nightwing is part of an ensemble in YJ, and the big other media push he's getting otherwise is as Robin. His solo his in a rut that can't hold on to a creative team, and the Titans in general need a massive kick in the ass that never seems to come.


Grayson has also not really generated any stories that are really classics imo.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Wishful thinking. Grayson was lucky for us, but an atypical situation for both Seeley and King. 
> 
> They have a chance with evey issue of Nightwing to do some new stories with him, its not Nightwing thats preventing this. Nightwing gets what it is given. Nightwing doesnt see the kinds of creative talent or freedom that make for classic runs. He got Dixon, which like it or not, was a successful run, but after that there was no one (and there unfortunately was a reason for that). Thats the big difference between his time as Batman and with Grayson. With Batman he was being written by Grant Morrison, and Grayson was blind luck. They fumbled into that. And even with Grayson its not like they even let them finish it. Grayson was great, but it was always gonna lead back into Nightwing. And quite frankly it should not have mattered. They could have called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson and it wouldnt have changed anything. Nightwing is not the problem. A sustainable brand is advantageous. They shouldnt just throw that away. I loved Grayson, and while we might not see a Nightwing movie anytime soon, and Nightwing might be part of an ensemble in YJ, and he might be starting as Robin in Titans, but Nightwing still has 25+ more years as a brand and far more exposer then Agent 37 has. Thats not nothing. Believe it or not, in the long run, its not in Dicks best interest to just start over. Ideally incorporating Grayson into Nightwing was where it should have eventually gone. Course Rebirth happened and they just jammed it together. Which was unfortunate and far from the ideal way of doing it.


Right, the issue is that DC doesn't give a shit about comics Dick Grayson, in any form. They know that people buy his book, so he has a book. That's it. 

I feel conflicted in how I'm supposed to "vote with my wallet" in this situation. I usually give each new team a try, but quickly fall off because I don't want to buy mediocre comics just to support a character.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Grayson sold numbers that were pretty similar to the any of the Nightwing ongoings thougth.


Fair enough, though if the numbers were good I don't see why the couldn't have just let Grayson continue into Rebirth, or as Godlike mentioned, give him the Nightwing codename and costume again but otherwise not change anything. 




> Grayson was great, but it was always gonna lead back into Nightwing. And quite frankly it should not have mattered. They could have called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson and it wouldn’t have changed anything. Nightwing is not the problem. A sustainable brand is advantageous. They shouldn’t just throw that away. I loved Grayson, and while we might not see a Nightwing movie anytime soon, and Nightwing might be part of an ensemble in YJ, and he might be starting as Robin in Titans, but Nightwing still has 25+ more years as a brand and far more exposer then Agent 37 has. That’s not nothing. Believe it or not, in the long run, it’s not in Dicks best interest to just start over. Ideally incorporating Grayson into Nightwing was where it should have eventually gone. Course Rebirth happened and they just jammed it together. Which was unfortunate and far from the ideal way of doing it.


I am in complete agreement with you that Nightwing was always inevitable, and that the best course of action would be to continue a Grayson style book and re-brand it Nightwing. Which is sort of what we were promised in the Rebirth one shot and the first arc. But editorial pulled the rug out from under us and Seeley and now we're in the mess we are in.

The Nightwing brand itself is not responsible for this, but at the same time the 25+ years of sustainable but not great stories hasn't done much for the brand. It sucks, but it is what it is. You say he cannot afford to start over now, but what does he have to lose by losing Nightwing, at least Nightwing as it is? He's the character he is because of Robin, not Nightwing. 




> Grayson has also not really generated any stories that are really classics imo.


Depends on who you ask. I and others view it as better than any title with "Nightwing" on the cover. Nightwing has also had a couple decades to get some classic stories out there, and never managed it. Grayson only had just a little over a year.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Right, the issue is that DC doesn't give a shit about comics Dick Grayson, in any form. They know that people buy his book, so he has a book. That's it. 
> 
> I feel conflicted in how I'm supposed to "vote with my wallet" in this situation. I usually give each new team a try, but quickly fall off because I don't want to buy mediocre comics just to support a character.


Do you enjoy it or not? If not just stop. You're not the one who's supposed to think about this. DC does. If they see people keep buying despite mediocrity, then they have no incentive to fix it. If nobody's buying it and they cancel the whole series and character, then that's just them being more honest than what's their doing right now. So no actual loss here.

Unless you do enjoy the story despite DC's treatment of the character because the story is good. Then carry on.

I guess my question is which one is more important, DC respecting the character, or getting a good story despite DC's treatment. If the story's good, I mean.

----------


## Godlike13

> I am in complete agreement with you that Nightwing was always inevitable, and that the best course of action would be to continue a Grayson style book and re-brand it Nightwing. Which is sort of what we were promised in the Rebirth one shot and the first arc. But editorial pulled the rug out from under us and Seeley and now we're in the mess we are in.
> 
> The Nightwing brand itself is not responsible for this, but at the same time the 25+ years of sustainable but not great stories hasn't done much for the brand. It sucks, but it is what it is. You say he cannot afford to start over now, but what does he have to lose by losing Nightwing, at least Nightwing as it is? He's the character he is because of Robin, not Nightwing.


Except 25+ years of sustainable, consistent, publication, plus other stuff, has done a lot for the brand. It established a sustainable brand. It might not be the biggest brand, but it’s also not nothing. So what does he lose by losing Nightwing, he loses a sustainable brand. A brand that has some legs into other media even. To get Agent 37 to where even Nightwing is would take a lot of work and time. It makes no sense to start over. Hell you don’t think Grayson wouldn’t eventually start seeing the same shackles and limitations that Nightwing sees. Again they wouldn’t even let them finish their run. Grayson was great, but it wasn’t saving him from these problems.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Do you enjoy it or not? If not just stop. You're not the one who's supposed to think about this. DC does. If they see people keep buying despite mediocrity, then they have no incentive to fix it. If nobody's buying it and they cancel the whole series and character, then that's just them being more honest than what's their doing right now. So no actual loss here.
> 
> Unless you do enjoy the story despite DC's treatment of the character because the story is good. Then carry on.
> 
> I guess my question is which one is more important, DC respecting the character, or getting a good story despite DC's treatment. If the story's good, I mean.


And this is where I ended up, I'll buy it if the story is good, which for me was about halfway or 2/3rds through Seeley's run. 




> Except 25+ years of sustainable, consistent, publication, plus other stuff, has done a lot for the brand. It established a sustainable brand. It might not be the biggest brand, but it’s also not nothing. So what does he lose by losing Nightwing, he loses a sustainable brand. A brand that has some legs into other media even. To get Agent 37 to where even Nightwing is would take a lot of work and time. It makes no sense to start over. Hell you don’t think Grayson wouldn’t eventually start seeing the same shackles and limitations that Nightwing sees. Again they wouldn’t even let them finish their run. Grayson was great, but it wasn’t saving him from these problems.


I agree that losing Nightwing would hurt more than it would help, and that the issues with the character have nothing (or at least very little) to do with whether he is Nightwing or 37 or whatever.

I do still think Bludhaven is a problem. Or at least, if editorial is forcing writers to "do stuff" with bludhaven that is an issue.

----------


## Drako

> Depends on who you ask. I and others view it as better than any title with "Nightwing" on the cover. Nightwing has also had a couple decades to get some classic stories out there, and never managed it. Grayson only had just a little over a year.


Grayson was good because of the writers, not because he wasn't Nightwing anymore.The moment King and Seeley were off the book, the quality took a dip.

Because DC isn't stupid, they saw Tom King as great upcoming writer and put him to write Bruce because he is their most popular character. The same thing happened with Scott Snyder after he wrote a pretty good run for DickBats. 

At least Seeley stayed for awhile.

The Nightwing brand is fine, he sells more than some "A List." What this book needs is a good, solid and creative new writer to put him on a good direction.

We all know Percy isn't the answer, but i liked his first issue, so i'm going to wait and see what he has in store for us.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Except 25+ years of sustainable, consistent, publication, plus other stuff, has done a lot for the brand. It established a sustainable brand. It might not be the biggest brand, but it’s also not nothing. So what does he lose by losing Nightwing, he loses a sustainable brand. A brand that has some legs into other media even. To get Agent 37 to where even Nightwing is would take a lot of work and time. It makes no sense to start over. Hell you don’t think Grayson wouldn’t eventually start seeing the same shackles and limitations that Nightwing sees. Again they wouldn’t even let them finish their run. Grayson was great, but it wasn’t saving him from these problems.


It has some legs, but nothing as a solo act, and nothing on the horizon to change that situation. 

The brand isn't nothing, but everyone in here seems to think the brand should (or at least the character) needs to be seen as something far bigger than it/he is. Historically, there isn't much to support that. His greatest stint away from the Bat-Verse was during the NTT era, and that thing gradually ran out of gas shortly after he became Nightwing. He returned and found success as a Bat spin-off character because that franchise as a whole could sustain numerous spinoffs, but "Extension of Batman" doesn't cut it anymore. 

I honestly don't think it would _take_ that much work to get Agent 37 to catch up to Nightwing. Robin most definitely, but Nightwing I'm iffy on. The Guardians of the Galaxy were far more obscure, and look at them now. All it would take was one good media adaptation. But the time is past and will never circle around again. And yes, they thought it was a good idea to end the run. For Nightwing in Bludhaven, and look where it's got us comics wise. Right back where he was before, a mediocre setting leading to mediocre stories.

Yeah, Agent 37 would have run out of gas eventually. In which case they would have to get creative and find something else. But going back to the rut that didn't work before for some other media synergy that has yet to come about (and may never will) hardly seems worth it. 




> I do still think Bludhaven is a problem. Or at least, if editorial is forcing writers to "do stuff" with bludhaven that is an issue.


Yes, it's definitely the major factor in Nighwing sucking. 




> At least Seeley stayed for awhile.


Yeah, and he did better than most could with the setup handed to him, but he was pretty upfront with not being happy with the status quo. 




> The Nightwing brand is fine, he sells more than some "A List." *What this book needs is a good, solid and creative new writer to put him on a good direction.*


The problem is, DC doesn't seem interested in giving him one and for all we know not many writers are chomping at the bit at the chance to tackle Nightwing as he is. DC doesn't know what to do with him as Nightwing. They could have written a book that was the best of both worlds and they had a writer on board who would have gladly done it, but they missed their shot.

----------


## Mataza

Bludhaven isnt the problem. Any city can work if done well. The problem is that no one has any clue where to take nightwing. It seems any time a writer tries to take him in any direction he gets yelled out of the room.
Make no mistake, even if people here liked Grayson, a large part of the fandom hated it that he wasnt a hero anymore. And they clapped when it was announced hed be back in the tights. Therefore nighting seems frozen in time, any character growth he ever gets is undone, and as a result all we get is bland stories from a bland character, and thats baffling because nightwing has one of the richest stories in DC (even if a lot of it got undone, there are decades of stories there that are still in place).

Someone here said he is the "butt of the team", and that isnt exactly wrong. Seems like the only thing to have really stuck.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Bludhaven isnt the problem. Any city can work if done well. The problem is that no one has any clue where to take nightwing. It seems any time a writer tries to take him in any direction he gets yelled out of the room.
> Make no mistake, even if people here liked Grayson, a large part of the fandom hated it that he wasnt a hero anymore. And they clapped when it was announced hed be back in the tights. *Therefore nighting seems frozen in time, any character growth he ever gets is undone, and as a result all we get is bland stories from a bland character,* and thats baffling because nightwing has one of the richest stories in DC (even if a lot of it got undone, there are decades of stories there that are still in place).
> 
> Someone here said he is the "butt of the team", and that isnt exactly wrong. Seems like the only thing to have really stuck.


I think putting him in any city inevitably leads to "Batman-lite" scenarios. Bludhaven just happens to be the one they keep using, despite them having about two decades to make it interesting and never succeeding. 

I think the bolded is a problem because the two most natural choices for Dick's evolution as a character is to either take over as Batman, or for the Titans to take the JL's place as the premiere superhero team. Neither of which is an option for various reasons, so they're stuck. Dick fares better than the rest of the Fab 5 that isn't Wally (and even with him, we're seeing the double edged sword of legacies with Barry's return), but he's still not allowed to be the best he can be. He can't move forward, and fans aren't always receptive to alternatives. He's stuck as a pretty big property, but only because it's attached to a far bigger one (Batman) and his Robin identity is still bigger than the one he's in now. And it's one he shares with four or so other characters.

----------


## Mataza

> He can't move forward, and fans aren't always receptive to alternatives.


I think you hit the nail in the head here. Fans will have to accept that Dick cant be Batman, and DC needs to understand that Nightwing is a very valuable property and that sacrificing it (and many other characters) to the batgod just isnt a good strategy longterm.

----------


## phantom1592

I think there is way too much focus on trying to move a character forward or changing them.  Some things are just so 'core' to the characters that you SHOULDN'T change them. Nobody wants Flash Stories in Space or Superman refusing to use his powers or Batman living in a carnival... Batman doesn't give up being Batman, Superman doesn't stop being Superman... why should Dick need to 'outgrow and change his identity? 

'Batman Lite' isn't a bad thing to be. Honestly THAT is my favorite Nightwing. The 'Less-dark Knight' that read more like Bronze Age Batman than Then-current Batman. A street level vigilante who is dexterity based and trained by the world's greatest detective cleaning up his own town. He had a day job, he had friends, an apartment, his own rogues and it did pretty well. 


THAT is what is needed not just for Dick Grayson, but ANY character. They need their own supporting cast, they need day jobs, they need to focus on BOTH halves of the identity not JUST the hero side... or yeah, they'll look like cardboard cutouts and cheap imitations.

I never gave 'Grayson' a chance because it was too much a departure from the character. The images they showed of a guy raised by Batman firmly in the 'no-killing' and 'no guns' mentality strapping on a holster and pointing a gun at the viewer... Not for me. If it had been an original character with the same premise, I'd have probably liked it, but that didn't work for Dick.

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## JasonTodd428

> Fans bought Grayson. Rebirth was a line wide thing. Plus quite frankly it shouldn't matter whether he's Nightwing or not when it comes to creative innovation. This is not on "fans", or Nightwing for that matter. Nightwing isn't some tangible authority that stops creators from creating or something, and sustainability should be advantageous to them creating. Also Grayson wouldn't have kept King off Batman. Lets be real here.


The problem with "Nightwing" is that editorial, writers and even fans have a certain vision for that character as well as certain expectations and that vision is extremely specific. I agree it's not just a "fan" created problem but you can't really say that the fans or the name don't play their own part in this continual back tracking the character goes through. "Nightwing" is marketable and has been sustainable sure but if writers and editors never do anything innovative or even the slightest bit interesting with the concept doesn't that defeat the purpose? If editorial and writers continually put the character in the same box just to check off boxes how is that beneficial to the character? If the character continues to not only be stuck with a glass ceiling he can never break through but also in his own past history how does that effect a change in how he is viewed by the creative's and editors involved?

Seeley was hands down the best writer Nightwing has had in years and editorial edicts and fan expectations literally made it impossible to write the book as he wanted. Those two things were also likely the reasons behind his departure from the title. If he had been left alone to write his full on "Grayson-style" Nightwing like he wanted it would have been a phenomenal run instead of merely being a better than normal one.

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## Armor of God

> I think there is way too much focus on trying to move a character forward or changing them.  Some things are just so 'core' to the characters that you SHOULDN'T change them. Nobody wants Flash Stories in Space or Superman refusing to use his powers or Batman living in a carnival... Batman doesn't give up being Batman, Superman doesn't stop being Superman... why should Dick need to 'outgrow and change his identity? 
> 
> 'Batman Lite' isn't a bad thing to be. Honestly THAT is my favorite Nightwing. The 'Less-dark Knight' that read more like Bronze Age Batman than Then-current Batman. A street level vigilante who is dexterity based and trained by the world's greatest detective cleaning up his own town. He had a day job, he had friends, an apartment, his own rogues and it did pretty well. 
> 
> 
> THAT is what is needed not just for Dick Grayson, but ANY character. They need their own supporting cast, they need day jobs, they need to focus on BOTH halves of the identity not JUST the hero side... or yeah, they'll look like cardboard cutouts and cheap imitations.
> 
> I never gave 'Grayson' a chance because it was too much a departure from the character. The images they showed of a guy raised by Batman firmly in the 'no-killing' and 'no guns' mentality strapping on a holster and pointing a gun at the viewer... Not for me. If it had been an original character with the same premise, I'd have probably liked it, but that didn't work for Dick.


Dick's core is being Robin, Batman's partner and forming the Teen Titans. Removing that changes a fundamental aspect of him, Bludhaven isn't core, neither is Nightwing to be frank. They should keep experimenting or return him to his actual core.

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## SiegePerilous02

I also realized that Shazam's movie is in post-Production, and we haven't gotten anything on the comics front for him in a great long while. Wonder Woman had the best received movie in the DCEU and her anticipated sequel is going to start filming soon. The best they could do for her was put James Robinson on her title and introduce the brother nobody wanted. 

Compared to those, Nightwing's upcoming appearances in other media (and one of which is as Robin) aren't as big, so it's not surprising that the brand isn't getting the push in the comics either. 





> 'Batman Lite' isn't a bad thing to be. Honestly THAT is my favorite Nightwing. The 'Less-dark Knight' that read more like Bronze Age Batman than Then-current Batman. A street level vigilante who is dexterity based and trained by the world's greatest detective cleaning up his own town. He had a day job, he had friends, an apartment, his own rogues and it did pretty well.
> 
> THAT is what is needed not just for Dick Grayson, but ANY character. They need their own supporting cast, they need day jobs, they need to focus on BOTH halves of the identity not JUST the hero side... or yeah, they'll look like cardboard cutouts and cheap imitations.


The problem is, Dick's supporting cast(s), villains and settings while he was Nightwing never took off the way Batman or Superman's did. Giving him a civilian job and focusing on both halves of the identity didn't work because that's what practically EVERY other major hero has, so how is he going to stand out?

Dick filling in as Batman and battling villains like the Circus of the Strange, Flamingo and Dr. Hurt made him seem like Bronze Age Batman. Pit Nightwing against villains like those instead of duds like Blockbuster, Torque and Brutale and we might have something to work with. 




> I never gave 'Grayson' a chance because it was too much a departure from the character. The images they showed of a guy raised by Batman firmly in the 'no-killing' and 'no guns' mentality strapping on a holster and pointing a gun at the viewer... Not for me. If it had been an original character with the same premise, I'd have probably liked it, but that didn't work for Dick.


You should give it a shot. it's the best the character has been in years. He was fun and competent in a way he hasn't been allowed to be as Nightwing with the Bat-crew or with the Titans (especially of late with the latter). If you are concerned about the gun, don't be. He never fires it, much to the eternal chagrin of his fellow Spyral agents. 




> The problem with "Nightwing" is that editorial, writers and even fans have a certain vision for that character as well as certain expectations and that vision is extremely specific. I agree it's not just a "fan" created problem but you can't really say that the fans or the name don't play their own part in this continual back tracking the character goes through. *"Nightwing" is marketable and has been sustainable sure but if writers and editors never do anything innovative or even the slightest bit interesting with the concept doesn't that defeat the purpose*? If editorial and writers continually put the character in the same box just to check off boxes how is that beneficial to the character? If the character continues to not only be stuck with a glass ceiling he can never break through but also in his own past history how does that effect a change in how he is viewed by the creative's and editors involved?


Exactly. Why have it if nothing interesting is being done with it? Why be satisfied with mediocrity if the character can fly higher without it? The Nightwing brand isn't the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, he's beat by Batman, Robin (the identity in general), probably Batgirl and Red Hood, and all of the major villains. 




> Seeley was hands down the best writer Nightwing has had in years and editorial edicts and fan expectations literally made it impossible to write the book as he wanted. Those two things were also likely the reasons behind his departure from the title. *If he had been left alone to write his full on "Grayson-style" Nightwing like he wanted it would have been a phenomenal run instead of merely being a better than normal one.*


Exactly. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" were great. If we had gotten a full run like those, we'd be in a better place right now.

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## Restingvoice

> 'Batman Lite' isn't a bad thing to be. Honestly THAT is my favorite Nightwing. The 'Less-dark Knight' that read more like Bronze Age Batman than Then-current Batman. A street level vigilante who is dexterity based and trained by the world's greatest detective cleaning up his own town. He had a day job, he had friends, an apartment, his own rogues and it did pretty well.


As long as Nightwing is Batman-Lite, DC's gonna keep sending their best writer, artist, story, and event to Batman, because why invest in a lesser version if you got Batman.

Not that they'll invest in him anyway.

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## Aahz

> Dick filling in as Batman and battling villains like the Circus of the Strange, Flamingo and Dr. Hurt made him seem like Bronze Age Batman. Pit Nightwing against villains like those instead of duds like Blockbuster, Torque and Brutale and we might have something to work with.


Circus of the Strange and Flamingo are imo not really better than the classic Nightwing villains.

----------


## Armor of God

Pyg is certainly better than them all.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Circus of the Strange and Flamingo are imo not really better than the classic Nightwing villains.


They're underdeveloped, but they have eye catching, garish designs and gimmicks that kind of scream to be used more. 

If we're talking Pyg vs. Stallion, Brutale and Torque, I'm going with Pyg every time. And the best part is, Dick has a solid claim to him as a villain, so it's not like he'd be getting Bruce's castoffs.

----------


## Frontier

Just like there are many different breeds of Batman villains, there are many different breed of Nightwing villains...

(Torque still creeps the heck out of me).

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## JasonTodd428

> Dick's core is being Robin, Batman's partner and forming the Teen Titans. Removing that changes a fundamental aspect of him, Bludhaven isn't core, neither is Nightwing to be frank. They should keep experimenting or return him to his actual core.


That's what I felt _Grayson_ did. It actually got him back to the core of his character and all without treating him like a second-rate Batman or making him seem to be an incompetent hero like the recent run on Titans has. He was fun, competent and held his own in the grey world of spy work without compromising his principles or even firing a gun. 




> Exactly. Why have it if nothing interesting is being done with it? *Why be satisfied with mediocrity if the character can fly higher without it?* The Nightwing brand isn't the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, he's beat by Batman, Robin (the identity in general), probably Batgirl and Red Hood, and all of the major villains.


I really can't understand this mentality at all. _Grayson_ itself and even parts of Seeley's _Nightwing_ run make it very clear that the only thing holding him back is DC and fans insistence on shoving the character into the same hole every time there's a new direction applied to the character. I'm sick of them telling basically the same stories with all the same beats only with different players all out of a fit of nostalgia when it is possible to tell great stories without relying so much on that nostalgia. The best issue of _Grayson_ manages to scratch the nostalgia itch and tell an amazing story at the same time with the nostalgia in it feeling natural instead of forced and with it serving as a compliment to the story being told. ("We All Die at Dawn-Grayson issue #5 if anyone cares to take a look.)




> Exactly. "Better than Batman" and "Nightwing Must Die" were great. If we had gotten a full run like those, we'd be in a better place right now.


I rather suspect we would still have Seeley on the book for starters but even if we didn't we still would have gotten a more even run from him full of stories like the two you mentioned here. I find it sad that we didn't get to see exactly what he wanted to do.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Just like there are many different breeds of Batman villains, there are many different breed of Nightwing villains...
> 
> (Torque still creeps the heck out of me).


I don't think Nightwing has enough villains to classify them into different breeds.

Most of them are the Dixon breed, which is not a breed I'm terribly fond of. The rest of them are the Morrison breed (as even the ones Seeley created had a Morrison vibe to them because he loves using Grant's toys), but there isn't too many of them and DC has leaned in favor of the former




> I rather suspect we would still have Seeley on the book for starters but even if we didn't we still would have gotten a more even run from him full of stories like the two you mentioned here. I find it sad that we didn't get to see exactly what he wanted to do.


It's DC going overboard again. There was a middle ground that could have easily been done (Nightwing as a globe trotting hero having bizarre adventures), but they didn't go for it. Same with the JSA stuff and needing them back on the main Earth, when they could just restore Earth-2 and put all the popular iterations of those characters there.

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## Armor of God

> They're underdeveloped, but they have eye catching, garish designs and gimmicks that kind of scream to be used more. 
> 
> If we're talking Pyg vs. Stallion, Brutale and Torque, I'm going with Pyg every time. And the best part is, Dick has a solid claim to him as a villain, so it's not like he'd be getting Bruce's castoffs.


Lady Vic and Brutale from the Dixon era were pretty cool and could have even worked as Grayson villains but for some reason its Blockbuster and the local losers that DC is fond of.

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## Frontier

> I don't think Nightwing has enough villains to classify them into different breeds.
> 
> Most of them are the Dixon breed, which is not a breed I'm terribly fond of. The rest of them are the Morrison breed (as even the ones Seeley created had a Morrison vibe to them because he loves using Grant's toys), but there isn't too many of them and DC has leaned in favor of the former


Just taking the Dixon and Seeley breed together I'd say there's actually a surprising variety among Nightwing's Rogues. 

But I liked Dixon's villains, so I'm far from unbiased  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> It's DC going overboard again. There was a middle ground that could have easily been done (Nightwing as a globe trotting hero having bizarre adventures), but they didn't go for it. Same with the JSA stuff and needing them back on the main Earth, when they could just restore Earth-2 and put all the popular iterations of those characters there.


I think putting the JSA on the main Earth is more of a middle ground between not having them at all or putting them on their own Earth that would likely not get anywhere near the focus or attention that the main Earth gets.

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## Restingvoice

> Lady Vic and Brutale from the Dixon era were pretty cool and could have even worked as Grayson villains but for some reason its Blockbuster and the local losers that DC is fond of.


Blockbuster last long and when people talk about Nightwing archnemesis his name comes first. I've never even heard of Brutale. 

After Blockbuster, the second name that most often comes up is Shrike.

Pyg and Dr. Hurt, even though Dick faces them and Seeley uses them, are still considered Batman villains first because they're part of the larger Morrison Batman narrative, in which Bruce is still the main character.

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## Armor of God

> Blockbuster last long and when people talk about Nightwing archnemesis his name comes first. I've never even heard of Brutale. 
> 
> After Blockbuster, the second name that most often comes up is Shrike.
> 
> Pyg and Dr. Hurt, even though Dick faces them and Seeley uses them, are still considered Batman villains first because they're part of the larger Morrison Batman narrative, in which Bruce is still the main character.


Blockbuster is serviceable, after him only Brutale and Lady Vic have any real potential. The rest are lame and Shrike is the worst. He's a third tier LOA member, Nightwing going up against him sucks for Dick's rep.

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## SiegePerilous02

Is Lady Vic's name short for "Lady Victim,"? I always thought that was dumb




> Just taking the Dixon and Seeley breed together I'd say there's actually a surprising variety among Nightwing's Rogues. 
> 
> But I liked Dixon's villains, so I'm far from unbiased .


Fair enough. For me, they never made much of an impression. I think the only villain he had a hand in creating that stands out is Bane, naturally.  




> I think putting the JSA on the main Earth is more of a middle ground between not having them at all or putting them on their own Earth that would likely not get anywhere near the focus or attention that the main Earth gets.


Yeah, but they're still not likely to get focus on the main Earth compared to the JLA. And the reason New 52 Earth-2 failed was because they were all younger and radically different. 

They could still participate in crossovers pre-Crisis. 




> Pyg and Dr. Hurt, even though Dick faces them and Seeley uses them, are still considered Batman villains first because they're part of the larger Morrison Batman narrative, in which Bruce is still the main character.


Yeah, but Dick was the Batman Professor Pyg and Flamingo went up against in the Morrison run, not Bruce. And they don't get much page time in the main Batman book anyway, so giving them to Dick would work out. Especially as a lot of them make sense to be popping up in different locations, like Flamingo and the *International* Club of Villains, so they could fit a globetrotting Nightwing book.

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## Aahz

> If we're talking Pyg vs. Stallion, Brutale and Torque, I'm going with Pyg every time. And the best part is, Dick has a solid claim to him as a villain, so it's not like he'd be getting Bruce's castoffs.


Stallion and Brutal are just glorified Henchman, Torque was not so bad.

Pyg I'm not a big fan of, afaik he doesn't really have a clear origin story or motivation, and I can't remember that he was ever really the main villain of in any note worthy story arc.

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## SiegePerilous02

> Stallion and Brutal are just glorified Henchman, Torque was not so bad.
> 
> Pyg I'm not a big fan of, afaik he doesn't really have a clear origin story or motivation, and I can't remember that he was ever really the main villain of in any note worthy story arc.


He doesn't have to be an arch villain that's the Big Bad of any arc. He's basically a nut that other villains use for their own purposes and aim in a certain direction. Which is fine, it's what works for him. So he's basically a (at times unwitting) henchman who is still legitimately disturbing and grabs your attention on his own, which puts him far above Stallion and Brutale.

His origin is (I believe, it's been a while) that he was an agent of Spyral that was driven insane and experimented on by Dr. Dedalus.

----------


## 9th.

> I think there is way too much focus on trying to move a character forward or changing them.  Some things are just so 'core' to the characters that you SHOULDN'T change them. Nobody wants Flash Stories in Space or Superman refusing to use his powers or Batman living in a carnival... Batman doesn't give up being Batman, Superman doesn't stop being Superman... why should Dick need to 'outgrow and change his identity? 
> 
> 'Batman Lite' isn't a bad thing to be. Honestly THAT is my favorite Nightwing. The 'Less-dark Knight' that read more like Bronze Age Batman than Then-current Batman. A street level vigilante who is dexterity based and trained by the world's greatest detective cleaning up his own town. He had a day job, he had friends, an apartment, his own rogues and it did pretty well. 
> 
> 
> THAT is what is needed not just for Dick Grayson, but ANY character. They need their own supporting cast, they need day jobs, they need to focus on BOTH halves of the identity not JUST the hero side... or yeah, they'll look like cardboard cutouts and cheap imitations.
> 
> I never gave 'Grayson' a chance because it was too much a departure from the character. The images they showed of a guy raised by Batman firmly in the 'no-killing' and 'no guns' mentality strapping on a holster and pointing a gun at the viewer... Not for me. If it had been an original character with the same premise, I'd have probably liked it, but that didn't work for Dick.


I see why you would feel that way but you're robbing yourself of a good story. He never fires his gun in Grayson, he just throws it at people.

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## Aahz

> He doesn't have to be an arch villain that's the Big Bad of any arc. He's basically a nut that other villains use for their own purposes and aim in a certain direction. Which is fine, it's what works for him. So he's basically a (at times unwitting) henchman who is still legitimately disturbing and grabs your attention on his own, which puts him far above Stallion and Brutale.


But that puts him imo below villains that can be the Big Bad like Blockbuster or even Torque.
And the rest of the circus of strange is imo not really above guys like Stallion and Brutale.

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## Godlike13

> The problem with "Nightwing" is that editorial, writers and even fans have a certain vision for that character as well as certain expectations and that vision is extremely specific. I agree it's not just a "fan" created problem but you can't really say that the fans or the name don't play their own part in this continual back tracking the character goes through. "Nightwing" is marketable and has been sustainable sure but if writers and editors never do anything innovative or even the slightest bit interesting with the concept doesn't that defeat the purpose? If editorial and writers continually put the character in the same box just to check off boxes how is that beneficial to the character? If the character continues to not only be stuck with a glass ceiling he can never break through but also in his own past history how does that effect a change in how he is viewed by the creative's and editors involved?
> 
> Seeley was hands down the best writer Nightwing has had in years and editorial edicts and fan expectations literally made it impossible to write the book as he wanted. Those two things were also likely the reasons behind his departure from the title. If he had been left alone to write his full on "Grayson-style" Nightwing like he wanted it would have been a phenomenal run instead of merely being a better than normal one.





> Exactly. Why have it if nothing interesting is being done with it? Why be satisfied with mediocrity if the character can fly higher without it? The Nightwing brand isn't the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, he's beat by Batman, Robin (the identity in general), probably Batgirl and Red Hood, and all of the major villains.


The problem here is that your just assuming that the character can fly higher without it. Tearing down Nightwing doesn't really make a case for Grayson. The Nightwing brand might not be the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, but it still remains far stronger then the Grayson brand. Like it, or not. The Nightwing has brand has far more of head start as an established brand, and far more investment from DC then Grayson does. And what more you guys are assuming that Grayson wouldn't start to see the same problems that Nightwing sees. Which given they wouldn't even let Grayson's creators finish it, is false to assume. The far simpler solution to nothing interesting is being done with Nightwing, is to do something interesting with it. Not start over.

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## yash

> The problem here is that your just assuming that the character can fly higher without it. Tearing down Nightwing doesn't really make a case for Grayson. The Nightwing brand might not be the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, but it still remains far stronger then the Grayson brand. Like it, or not. The Nightwing has brand has far more of head start as an established brand, and far more investment from DC then Grayson does. And what more you guys are assuming that Grayson wouldn't start to see the same problems that Nightwing sees. Which given they wouldn't even let Grayson's creators finish it, is false to assume. The far simpler solution to nothing interesting is being done with Nightwing, is to do something interesting with it. Not start over.


 i mean dick has survived big changes and come out stronger each time, people bitched about those changes each time, whether it be nightwing, batman or agent 37, he came out looking better each time, i think dick needs a great distance from bruce because all of his best stories came out when there was a good distance between him and bruce, wheather it be ntt, b&r or Grayson, problem with NW is that he cannot get far enough, especially now with bludhaven back (that city went from wannabe LA to wannabe gotham in just 1 change of writers!) with bruce always around and nightwing being in such a similar setting why would you bother writing a great NW story when the same story can be told with batman, grayson solved a lot of those problems, not only was there a great distance between him and bruce and he was in a setting unique enough that that particular kind of story could not be told wigh batman but it also solved the "day job" problem and we did not have to suffer the writter trying to establish day job characters that were not going to survive the next writer anyway, i just think in an era of constant relaunches and big events trying to establish a traditional hero setting is a waste of time

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## SiegePerilous02

> But that puts him imo below villains that can be the Big Bad like Blockbuster or even Torque.
> And the rest of the circus of strange is imo not really above guys like Stallion and Brutale.


Blockbuster is basically Kingpin and and Torque sucks. They are Big Bads but not good one. 




> The problem here is that your just assuming that the character can fly higher without it. Tearing down Nightwing doesn't really make a case for Grayson. The Nightwing brand might not be the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, but it still remains far stronger then the Grayson brand. Like it, or not. The Nightwing has brand has far more of head start as an established brand, and far more investment from DC then Grayson does. And what more you guys are assuming that Grayson wouldn't start to see the same problems that Nightwing sees. Which given they wouldn't even let Grayson's creators finish it, is false to assume. The far simpler solution to nothing interesting is being done with Nightwing, is to do something interesting with it. Not start over.


They don't make many attempts for the character to fly higher though. It has far more of a head start but doesn't have as much to show for it, at least none that live up to the expectations in this thread. Saying Grayson wouldn't have worked in the long run doesn't change the fact that VERY LITTLE interesting has been done for the Nightwing brand over a much greater timeframe. No one is saying Grayson is the only solution, but this interesting direction for Nightwing never ends up coming. If we keep holding out hope that Nightwing will get interesting and not be receptive to alternatives, the character may suffer because DC has proven they don't know how or are unwilling to truely invest in the brand to the vague degree fans claim they want.

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## Godlike13

> i mean dick has survived big changes and come out stronger each time, people bitched about those changes each time, whether it be nightwing, batman or agent 37, he came out looking better each time, i think dick needs a great distance from bruce because all of his best stories came out when there was a good distance between him and bruce, wheather it be ntt, b&r or Grayson, problem with NW is that he cannot get far enough, especially now with bludhaven back (that city went from wannabe LA to wannabe gotham in just 1 change of writers!) with bruce always around and nightwing being in such a similar setting why would you bother writing a great NW story when the same story can be told with batman, grayson solved a lot of those problems, not only was there a great distance between him and bruce and he was in a setting unique enough that that particular kind of story could not be told wigh batman but it also solved the "day job" problem and we did not have to suffer the writter trying to establish day job characters that were not going to survive the next writer anyway, i just think in an era of constant relaunches and big events trying to establish a traditional hero setting is a waste of time


Well coming out of Batman was really bad. Far worse then coming out of Grayson even. Now some of that has to do with the New 52, but they gave him no direction, a rookie writer, and an artist that could barely string together 3 complete issues. Nightwing did not come out looking better. They completely dropped the ball there quite frankly. So much so that it was to Nightwing benefit to basically kill it so they could try relaunching it again later.

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## JasonTodd428

> The problem here is that your just assuming that the character can fly higher without it. Tearing down Nightwing doesn't really make a case for Grayson. The Nightwing brand might not be the strongest one to come out of the Bat-verse, but it still remains far stronger then the Grayson brand. Like it, or not. The Nightwing has brand has far more of head start as an established brand, and far more investment from DC then Grayson does. And what more you guys are assuming that Grayson wouldn't start to see the same problems that Nightwing sees. Which given they wouldn't even let Grayson's creators finish it, is false to assume. The far simpler solution to nothing interesting is being done with Nightwing, is to do something interesting with it. Not start over.


My problem that writers DON'T do anything of interest or innovative with the concept as it stands. It's always the same song and dance when it comes to Nightwing and every single time they start doing something interesting they pull the rug out from under the writers involved and start him back at square one again. I'm sorry but leaving a character in a rut is not the way to make that character grow or change. It's merely a recipe for character stagnation and it's already at that point for me. Until editors and writers get their heads out of their a$$e$ and start seeing Nightwing as a character in his own right things will just keep being mediocre for the character.

As for your point about Grayson well we'll never get the chance to know because that direction was cut short. Maybe it would have eventually had the same problems but it's also equally possible it wouldn't. We've no way of knowing.

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## JasonTodd428

> Well coming out of Batman was really bad. Far worse then coming out of Grayson even. Now some of that has to do with the New 52, but they gave him no direction, a rookie writer, and an artist that could barely string together 3 complete issues. Nightwing did not come out looking better. They completely dropped the ball there quite frankly. So much so that it was to Nightwing benefit to basically kill it so they could try relaunching it again later.


Honestly the biggest problem with the N52 Nightwing book was the constant crossovers, which disrupted storylines. Higgins could never get things going because of them.

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## SiegePerilous02

What we do know for sure is whatever promise a relaunch of Nightwing had passed us by and now we are settled back in "no direction" territory and rotating creative teams, and an unbelievably shitty Titans book.

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## jbmasta

> Honestly the biggest problem with the N52 Nightwing book was the constant crossovers, which disrupted storylines. Higgins could never get things going because of them.


The circus got disrupted by Night of the Owls and Death of the Family, then Chicago had to be dropped because of Forever Evil.

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## Godlike13

> They don't make many attempts for the character to fly higher though. It has far more of a head start but doesn't have as much to show for it, at least none that live up to the expectations in this thread. Saying Grayson wouldn't have worked in the long run doesn't change the fact that VERY LITTLE interesting has been done for the Nightwing brand over a much greater timeframe. No one is saying Grayson is the only solution, but this interesting direction for Nightwing never ends up coming. If we keep holding out hope that Nightwing will get interesting and not be receptive to alternatives, the character may suffer because DC has proven they don't know how or are unwilling to truely invest in the brand to the vague degree fans claim they want.


Yet again sustainability, and an establish brand is not nothing. A lot of characters strive for just that. Just because stories aren't to everyone expectations doesn't mean there is nothing there. The Nightwing brand has been continuously published for 25+ years, and even has legs in other media. With more other media exposer potentially on the way. Not to mention things like toys and merchandise. More has been done with the Nightwing brand then you're acknowledging. And i have no clue whether Grayson would have worked in the long run, my point is why start from scratch when they don't have too. Starting over is not whats best for the character. Especially when the alternative has been proven to not be anymore immune to the problems Nightwing faces. DC hasn't proven themselves anymore willing to truly invest in these alternatives then they are Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

> My problem that writers DON'T do anything of interest or innovative with the concept as it stands. It's always the same song and dance when it comes to Nightwing and every single time they start doing something interesting they pull the rug out from under the writers involved and start him back at square one again. I'm sorry but leaving a character in a rut is not the way to make that character grow or change. It's merely a recipe for character stagnation and it's already at that point for me. Until editors and writers get their heads out of their a$$e$ and start seeing Nightwing as a character in his own right things will just keep being mediocre for the character.
> 
> As for your point about Grayson well we'll never get the chance to know because that direction was cut short. Maybe it would have eventually had the same problems but it's also equally possible it wouldn't. We've no way of knowing.


Except they pulled the rug out from under Grayson too, and they still were putting him with the Titans and teasing him with Babs, ect, ect. You guys are not making a case that Grayson wouldn't see the very same problems that Nightwing sees. Your trying to blame the persona for what management and the creators are or aren't doing. But Grayson wasn't anymore immune to this then Nightwing.

----------


## jbmasta

> Except they pulled they pulled the rug out from under Grayson too, and they still were putting him with the Titans and teasing him with Babs, ect, ect. You guys are not making a case that Grayson wouldn't see the very same problems that Nightwing sees. Your trying to blame the character for what management and the creators are or aren't doing. But Grayson wasn't anymore immune to this then Nightwing.


Wasn't the thing with Titans the Titans Hunt mini, which came after Convergence? Grayson did have one issue in the regular issues forced to tie into an event, Robin War (Futures End wasn't in the regular numbered run, instead was a one-shot).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Except they pulled the rug out from under Grayson too, and they still were putting him with the Titans and teasing him with Babs, ect, ect. You guys are not making a case that Grayson wouldn't see the very same problems that Nightwing sees. Your trying to blame the persona for what management and the creators are or aren't doing. But Grayson wasn't anymore immune to this then Nightwing.


I never claimed that Grayson wouldn't have eventually faced those same issues but that's something we'll never find out either. As for Grayson getting the rug pulled out from under it while that's certainly true but I'm not sure that constitutes definitive proof that if the book has continued it would suffered the same issues as Nightwing has for ages. All that it really proves is that DC wanted him back in tights because fans wanted his status quo back and they were resistant to any kind of permanent status quo change. Also sorry but I do think part of the problem might be the persona to a degree. He was never to my knowledge treated like Batman-lite until he was Nightwing. I believe it might be exacerbating the core problem because of the way the persona is consciously or unconsciously being perceived by management, writers and even fans. I think there are actually multiple problems that are feeding one into another in a cycle and that's why the character is stuck in the rut he is. 

Like I said before unless they stop perceiving Nightwing as a second rate character, which they only ever seem to do when he's not being Nightwing, and give him some kind of definitive direction that doesn't treat him like a newbie hero who needs Batman's permission to breath he will remain stuck in mediocre stories and books. Can they write an innovative story using Nightwing? Sure but first they really need to actually LOOK at his history, the stories he's been in and the things he's experienced and use that to build a solid direction for the character that shows how competent and experienced he is. 

In my opinion the way they have been treating him is not the way a character with the clout of Dick Grayson should be treated. The guy was freaking Batman for crying out loud with his own Robin and he trained other heroes besides. He's also been around almost as long as Batman himself. He deserves better.

----------


## Badou

> Except they pulled the rug out from under Grayson too, and they still were putting him with the Titans and teasing him with Babs, ect, ect. You guys are not making a case that Grayson wouldn't see the very same problems that Nightwing sees. Your trying to blame the persona for what management and the creators are or aren't doing. But Grayson wasn't anymore immune to this then Nightwing.


Not quite. Nightwing is too closely tied to Bludhaven, or Bludhaven equivalent settings, and all the problems that poor setting brings with it. Grayson was free of that and allowed the creators to try out fresh ideas. They weren't stuck in the mindset of "How can we make Bludhaven work" with every story and instead allowed their mind to explore anything. They want him to walk though a desert holding a baby? Sure. They want him to infiltrate some secret organization with robotic whales on the other side of the globe? Okay. They want him to go to space to fight on some alien space station? Perfect. It let the character explore the DCU's full array of rogues and settings without any hangups really. Outside of Nightwing there is nothing in Bludhaven and writers constantly struggle to create new rogues or struggle to find reasons why established rogues would even bother with Bludhaven. This is a major issue. 

I know you don't think Bludhaven is a problem, but after so many different writers and creative teams there is something about Bludhaven at its core that doesn't work. I feel the same about it as I do about the "adult characters on the Titans" problem. There is something about the concept that is broken to me but writers continue to try and make it work and something is always off. So I don't think it is possible to create quality stories with it as a setting because of how it traps the character in a role that limits his potential. 

Of course Grayson wasn't free of its problems, but we never really got a shot at seeing the idea fully explored to see what kind of problems it would have had compared to the typical Nightwing ones I think.

----------


## WonderNight

All DC has to do is let nightwing be free, no more be just like batman or daredevil just dick grayson in the DCU. I agree with Badu on this that Bludhaven can limit dick's sandbox, Spyral allowed dick  to have all of the DCU as his sandbox in his solo. As batman bruce was out of the way so dick was the head of the bat mythos which is a huge and already developed sandbox. but bludhaven's sandbox outside of dick himself (and maybe like 2 rouges) is empty! and each new writer always throws away almost that comes before, so theres no grow only a empty sandbox.

A nightwing thats limited to batman and street level is just going to be looked at as redundant and limited( one of the reasons i dont like dickbabs or a robins book). BUT a nightwing that has the entire DCU as his sandbox is limitless not just for fans but writers and DC also.

----------


## jbmasta

> All DC has to do is let nightwing be free, no more be just like batman or daredevil just dick grayson in the DCU. I agree with Badu on this that Bludhaven can limit dick's sandbox, Spyral allowed dick  to have all of the DCU as his sandbox in his solo. As batman bruce was out of the way so dick was the head of the bat mythos which is a huge and already developed sandbox. but bludhaven's sandbox outside of dick himself (and maybe like 2 rouges) is empty! and each new writer always throws away almost that comes before, so theres no grow only a empty sandbox.
> 
> A nightwing thats limited to batman and street level is just going to be looked at as redundant and limited( one of the reasons i dont like dickbabs or a robins book). BUT a nightwing that has the entire DCU as his sandbox is limitless not just for fans but writers and DC also.


Plus he's built up as the heart of the DC universe. Let him interact with characters who aren't usually in his social circle. Watching over Damien and Jon for a night, for example. Maybe he gives Green Lantern Jessica Cruz a pep talk when she's feeling particularly anxious. It explores different sides to Dick as a character and lets him network.

----------


## Godlike13

> I never claimed that Grayson wouldn't have eventually faced those same issues but that's something we'll never find out either. As for Grayson getting the rug pulled out from under it while that's certainly true but I'm not sure that constitutes definitive proof that if the book has continued it would suffered the same issues as Nightwing has for ages. All that it really proves is that DC wanted him back in tights because fans wanted his status quo back and they were resistant to any kind of permanent status quo change. Also sorry but I do think part of the problem might be the persona to a degree. He was never to my knowledge treated like Batman-lite until he was Nightwing. I believe it might be exacerbating the core problem because of the way the persona is consciously or unconsciously being perceived by management, writers and even fans. I think there are actually multiple problems that are feeding one into another in a cycle and that's why the character is stuck in the rut he is. 
> 
> Like I said before unless they stop perceiving Nightwing as a second rate character, which they only ever seem to do when he's not being Nightwing, and give him some kind of definitive direction that doesn't treat him like a newbie hero who needs Batman's permission to breath he will remain stuck in mediocre stories and books. Can they write an innovative story using Nightwing? Sure but first they really need to actually LOOK at his history, the stories he's been in and the things he's experienced and use that to build a solid direction for the character that shows how competent and experienced he is. 
> 
> In my opinion the way they have been treating him is not the way a character with the clout of Dick Grayson should be treated. The guy was freaking Batman for crying out loud with his own Robin and he trained other heroes besides. He's also been around almost as long as Batman himself. He deserves better.


Again Grayson was already seeing the problems that Nightwing sees, and ultimately fell victim to DC's new initiative and wanting to move its creators to a bigger gigs. I think that pretty clearly proves that Grayson was no more immune to Nightwing problems, and that Grayson wasn't really perceived by management much different then Nightwing is. They made to choice to axe it, move its creators on before it was even finished, and bring Dick inline with their Rebirth initiative. Grayson was supported. Fans were buying it. And don't forget, Grayson itself was blind luck. They accidentally double booked King and Seeley. So it's not like they sat down and really did something different. They just got lucky with their poor management. 




> Not quite. Nightwing is too closely tied to Bludhaven, or Bludhaven equivalent settings, and all the problems that poor setting brings with it. Grayson was free of that and allowed the creators to try out fresh ideas. They weren't stuck in the mindset of "How can we make Bludhaven work" with every story and instead allowed their mind to explore anything. They want him to walk though a desert holding a baby? Sure. They want him to infiltrate some secret organization with robotic whales on the other side of the globe? Okay. They want him to go to space to fight on some alien space station? Perfect. It let the character explore the DCU's full array of rogues and settings without any hangups really. Outside of Nightwing there is nothing in Bludhaven and writers constantly struggle to create new rogues or struggle to find reasons why established rogues would even bother with Bludhaven. This is a major issue. 
> 
> I know you don't think Bludhaven is a problem, but after so many different writers and creative teams there is something about Bludhaven at its core that doesn't work. I feel the same about it as I do about the "adult characters on the Titans" problem. There is something about the concept that is broken to me but writers continue to try and make it work and something is always off. So I don't think it is possible to create quality stories with it as a setting because of how it traps the character in a role that limits his potential. 
> 
> Of course Grayson wasn't free of its problems, but we never really got a shot at seeing the idea fully explored to see what kind of problems it would have had compared to the typical Nightwing ones I think.


Nightwing didn't see Bludhaven for 10 years before Rebirth. Long before Grayson. They are fully capable of putting Nightwing in different settings if they wanted to to. Though i think creators are stuck with Bludhaven now. Though they can't even keep it consistent so im not sure how in stone Bludhaven even is. Still like i said before they could have very well called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson. Its not like they couldn't do Grayson with Nightwing. 

And again we were already seeing the same problems. Titan's Hunt, Batman and Robin: Eternal, the end of Grayson, he was hardly free these things.

----------


## Armor of God

> All DC has to do is let nightwing be free, no more be just like batman or daredevil just dick grayson in the DCU. I agree with Badu on this that Bludhaven can limit dick's sandbox, Spyral allowed dick  to have all of the DCU as his sandbox in his solo. As batman bruce was out of the way so dick was the head of the bat mythos which is a huge and already developed sandbox. but bludhaven's sandbox outside of dick himself (and maybe like 2 rouges) is empty! and each new writer always throws away almost that comes before, so theres no grow only a empty sandbox.
> 
> A nightwing thats limited to batman and street level is just going to be looked at as redundant and limited( one of the reasons i dont like dickbabs or a robins book). BUT a nightwing that has the entire DCU as his sandbox is limitless not just for fans but writers and DC also.


I'm far cry from a Bludhaven supporter but with Nightwing DC has always done what they do with Batman. A street level solo book with a fixed setting where writers can develop their own exclusive toys and a team book that allows access to the wider DCU. Abnetts Titans has been rubbish despite all the DCU connections and its going to be further connected in the future but doesn't appear to be getting any less rubbish. In contrast the Bludhaven driven solo is consistent, respectful and enjoyable with occasional high points.

Wider DCU isn't going to save Dick, most of the wider DCU would actually love the kind of success and prominence Batman affiliated characters enjoy.

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm far cry from a Bludhaven supporter but with Nightwing DC has always done what they do with Batman. A street level solo book with a fixed setting where writers can develop their own exclusive toys and a team book that allows access to the wider DCU. Abnetts Titans has been rubbish despite all the DCU connections and its going to be further connected in the future but doesn't appear to be getting any less rubbish. In contrast the Bludhaven driven solo is consistent, respectful and enjoyable with occasional high points.
> 
> Wider DCU isn't going to save Dick, most of the wider DCU would actually love the kind of success and prominence Batman affiliated characters enjoy.


Save him, No... Free him, Yes. I like VegasHaven but it needs more.

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing didn't see Bludhaven for 10 years before Rebirth. Long before Grayson. They are fully capable of putting Nightwing in different settings if they wanted to to. Though i think creators are stuck with Bludhaven now. Though they can't even keep it consistent so im not sure how in stone Bludhaven even is. Still like i said before they could have very well called him Agent Nightwing in Grayson. Its not like they couldn't do Grayson with Nightwing. 
> 
> And again we were already seeing the same problems. Titan's Hunt, Batman and Robin: Eternal, the end of Grayson, he was hardly free these things.


That is why I said Bludhaven equivalent settings as well. Whether it is Chicago, NYC, or even Gotham the same problems occur because it forces them to write the character in a specific box that doesn't quite fit. Basically Daredevil-lite. I feel the problem is more prevalent in Bludhaven because it has had the most work done to it and has continued to fail to gain anything beyond what Dixon did 2 decades ago, which wasn't that strong to begin with. It compounds the problem because the creators are constantly thinking about how they can make Bludhaven work instead of trying to tell the best stories they can with Dick's character. Instead of telling the best Nightwing story they can they are trying to tell the best Nightwing story they can that is set in Bludhaven. Sure, the Bludhaven or Bludhaven-esque stories will mostly be received okay, like they usually are, but they will never be more than that. 

Here is an example. DC basically gave Priest Deathstroke to write and said he could do what he wanted with probably not too many limitations. Priest had Deathstroke, Deathstroke's history and all the DCU to tell the story he wanted and he ran with it. In just a few years he has had the character do a ton in his solo book. Not all of it has worked, but most of it has and it has been well received. That is the approach I want to see with Nightwing. Grayson was the closest to that because outside of the requirement of Dick having to be a spy DC let the creative team run with all their crazy ideas and it felt fresh and vibrant. Like you I wish this had continued with just calling him Nightwing, but when someone like Seeley openly says he doesn't like Blockbuster and Bludhaven but knows to write Nightwing he will have to write them then you are handicapping your ability to tell the stories you actually want. Dick has nearly 80 years of publication history and is DC's 3rd most published character. There has to be more you can do with his solo book than having him run around a place like Bludhaven doing nothing of consequence and doing his best Daredevil impersonation. 

Now the problems that stuff like Titans Hunt or B&R Eternal are different than what Nightwing's solo faces I think. Those are always going to be there for a character that gets pulled into other books, I've bitched about the adult Titans thing more than enough now, but a strong solo can shake that stuff off. Just like with Priest's Deathstroke when he got pulled into that shitty Titans crossover. Grayson had 2/3 of its creative team get bumped up to Batman with Rebirth, so in a way Grayson success doomed it because DC wanted to use those creators on a property they felt was more valuable. Maybe if DC would have let King and Seeley continue their Spy Wars story instead of shoving him back to Bludhaven with just calling him Nightwing in Rebirth both might have stayed on the book together, but I don't know.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Yet again sustainability, and an establish brand is not nothing. A lot of characters strive for just that. Just because stories aren't to everyone expectations doesn't mean there is nothing there.


The brand is solid for what it is (one of several Batman spin-offs) and is not nothing, but there is a problem when Dick Grayson fans want him to be treated as the same tier of importance as the Trinity, or close enough. He's been published as long as them, and even beats Diana in issues published, right? He's one of the contenders for Fourth Pillar of the DCU, but evidence points to the Nightwing brand specifically and the way it has been used not backing that up. So should Nightwing fans drastically lower their expectations?





> The Nightwing brand has been continuously published for 25+ years, and even has legs in other media. With more other media exposer potentially on the way. Not to mention things like toys and merchandise. More has been done with the Nightwing brand then you're acknowledging.


It's been continuously published for 25+ years, but most of it fell under the Batman umbrella, so much like all the spinoffs it was riding the wave of Bat-Dad's larger popularity being able to sustain them all. The closest thing we got to a classic run is Dixon's, which not everyone agree's was all that great to begin with, and there were no stand out stories that could be elevated to classic status in that period. Again, this would be fine if Grayson fans were satisfied with Dick just being a solid, sustainable extension of Batman, but not a lot of us seem to be, at least in this thread. 

He has legs in other media as a supporting player in Batman related things. Not as a solo act who can support his own franchise (yet). YJ is his most prominent ongoing animated role, and it's an ensemble show where he doesn't have to carry it on his own. He's going to be Robin in the Titans show, at least for a while, and was Robin in the Teen Titans cartoon with teases that he would someday become Nightwing, but not much more than that. 

"Potentially" being the key word for future media appearances. The DCEU in particular has a lot of movies announced, but until they actually start production, they could be scrapped at any moment. And we need Aquaman and Shazam to do well to have any hope for any of these projects being made, including Nightwing. 

And none of these other media appearances and toy sales are translating to comic sales, which is the area we have a problem. 




> And i have no clue whether Grayson would have worked in the long run, my point is why start from scratch when they don't have too. Starting over is not whats best for the character. Especially when the alternative has been proven to not be anymore immune to the problems Nightwing faces. DC hasn't proven themselves anymore willing to truly invest in these alternatives then they are Nightwing.


It was immune to at least not having a sucky, boring solo and had a creative team with a lot of energy, excitement and a plan once they started. The fact that they fell into it by accident is irrelevant, the end result was a better book than any of their "plans" for the character have been. Yeah you're right, DC didn't back Grayson and likely would not back alternatives, but they still are not backing Nightwing. So new direction for Nightwing or new direction for the character period: what difference does it make? 

And fans are still somewhat to blame for this. Enough of them sent the message that they want the same old crap for Nightwing, and DC pulled the rug out from Grayson to accommodate them with their Rebirth initiative. And then went one step further and hampered the writer from doing what he wanted, that _could_ have potentially satisfied both camps (this one's on DC). And now we're back in a rut with no solutions for the foreseeable future. Starting over may not be good, but staying the same course isn't either. Risks need to be taken once and a while or else the character stagnates. So we need to either take risks (as Nightwing or otherwise) or accept the fact that the character will always be an extension of Batman that will never soar as high as he could in order to hold on to the sustainability he has.

----------


## ross61

DC only did that with Deathstroke because they wanted to upgrade his profile and make him a more viable character. Dick/Nightwing doesnt have that problem in the slightest.

----------


## yash

> DC only did that with Deathstroke because they wanted to upgrade his profile and make him a more viable character. Dick/Nightwing doesn’t have that problem in the slightest.


 dick just went back to "are you disappointed in me bruce" status, right now as far as status is concerned slade is so far beyond NW its not even funny

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Snip


I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We're never going to see eye to eye on this issue and frankly we're just going on in circles at this point. I don't believe that Grayson was facing the same issues as Nightwing continually does nor do I feel that the management of DC was viewing the character the same way during Grayson as they do when he's Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

Look if most of Nightwing fans are satisfied as long as he's in Bludhaven, wearing blue, and so on and so forth then there's nothing  I can do. I can't beat majority. Then after I figured that DC is not interested in developing Nightwing because they don't want him to overshadow Batman, not buying doesn't work either.  That's before counting my problem with DC continuity. 

Maybe I should just get the figures instead. They have no continuity and I haven't bought a DC toy since I was a kid.

DdkkE12W0AATFio.jpg
DC Essential Figures by Paul Harding

----------


## Lazurus33

TNS-Cv24.jpg

TITANS #24
written by DAN ABNETT
art and cover by BRANDON PETERSON
variant cover by STJEPAN SEJIC
As if the Source Wall incursions causing a metagene pandemic werent enough, team dysfunction threatens this latest iteration of the Titans before their new mission even gets off the ground! Nightwing and Miss Martian butt heads over the teams M.O. as the fate of the latest metahuman hangs in the balance! Theyd better get their act together, because one of the Titans wont be coming home from this Source Wall missionand its not a vacation day!
ON SALE 08.08.18
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T

----------


## OversizedLoad

nightwing47.jpg nightwingannual1.jpg
NIGHTWING #47 
Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Christopher Mooneyham and Klaus Janson, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by John Romita Jr. and Danny Miki.

Dick Grayson may want to consider a new career in cyber-security, because the major tech upgrades coming to Bludhaven mean deadly danger for everyone in the city. Nightwing battles the mysterious tech mogul Willem Cloke, who it turns out is just a front man for the real threat -- the organization known only as the Dark Web! Time to change those passwords, Bludhaven!

32 pages, $3.99, in stores on August 1. 

NIGHTWING ANNUAL #1 
Written by Benjamin Percy, art and cover by Otto Schmidt.

The smart city overhaul of Bludhaven was just the beginning -- a single battle in a larger cyberwar that Nightwing is only starting to understand. But now the story of the Dark Web organization begins to expand as Grayson travels to Gotham City and partners up with Vicki Vale. We live in an era of fake news, alternative facts, disinformation. The gatekeepers of truth can't be trusted anymore, and sometimes elections, businesses and even lives are at stake. Nightwing faces off against the first of three lieutenants in the army of the Dark Web: Vire, the psychic embodiment of malware who can unearth your darkest secrets.

48 pages, $4.99, in stores on August 29.

----------


## yash

> nightwing47.jpg nightwingannual1.jpg
> NIGHTWING #47 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Christopher Mooneyham and Klaus Janson, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by John Romita Jr. and Danny Miki.
> 
> Dick Grayson may want to consider a new career in cyber-security, because the major tech upgrades coming to Bludhaven mean deadly danger for everyone in the city. Nightwing battles the mysterious tech mogul Willem Cloke, who it turns out is just a front man for the real threat -- the organization known only as the Dark Web! Time to change those passwords, Bludhaven!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on August 1. 
> 
> NIGHTWING ANNUAL #1 
> ...


 oh crap! Percy is at it again with his pseudo intellectual commentary, that shit ruined GA for me

----------


## Lazurus33

BATMAN #52 & #53
written by TOM KING
art and cover by LEE WEEKS
variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL
“Cold Days” continues! The jury in the Mr. Freeze trial is hopelessly deadlocked because one man won’t vote guilty—and that man is Bruce Wayne. Freeze’s defense is that Batman used excessive force, making his arrest illegal, and Bruce is the one man who actually knows for sure what went down between Batman and his ice-cold nemesis. And if Bruce is right, that means everything he’s devoted himself to as the Caped Crusader is a lie; he is hurting more than helping. With Dick Grayson putting the Batsuit back on to keep Gotham City safe while Bruce is sequestered, could this be the out Bruce needs to discard the cape and cowl forever?
The Eisner Award-nominated team of Tom King and Lee Weeks reexamine the relationship between hero and foe, as Batman relives not just that one violent night when he took down the King of Cold, but every time the two have come to blows.
ON SALE 08.01.18
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

----------


## yohyoi

I just read Abnett's interview... THE. WORST. INTERVIEW.

----------


## yohyoi

> nightwing47.jpg nightwingannual1.jpg
> NIGHTWING #47 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Christopher Mooneyham and Klaus Janson, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by John Romita Jr. and Danny Miki.
> 
> Dick Grayson may want to consider a new career in cyber-security, because the major tech upgrades coming to Bludhaven mean deadly danger for everyone in the city. Nightwing battles the mysterious tech mogul Willem Cloke, who it turns out is just a front man for the real threat -- the organization known only as the Dark Web! Time to change those passwords, Bludhaven!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on August 1. 
> 
> NIGHTWING ANNUAL #1 
> ...


Hell yeah! We got Otto Schmidt! The art will be so good. Percy needs to step up. His artists are carrying the book.

----------


## yohyoi

> Look if most of Nightwing fans are satisfied as long as he's in Bludhaven, wearing blue, and so on and so forth then there's nothing  I can do. I can't beat majority. Then after I figured that DC is not interested in developing Nightwing because they don't want him to overshadow Batman, not buying doesn't work either.  That's before counting my problem with DC continuity. 
> 
> Maybe I should just get the figures instead. They have no continuity and I haven't bought a DC toy since I was a kid.
> 
> DdkkE12W0AATFio.jpg
> DC Essential Figures by Paul Harding


Great figures to add to my collection. DC is not interested on developing any Legacy character right now. Things need to change in DC so our beloved Legacy characters can grow. This belief of stunting Legacy characters so they can't overshadow their predecessor is an archaic and bad idea. If Batman and his generation can't share then they need to step down soon.

----------


## yohyoi

> dick just went back to "are you disappointed in me bruce" status, right now as far as status is concerned slade is so far beyond NW its not even funny


Abnett can't write Dick to save his life. I have been saying this for a year already people. His Nightwing is one of the worst of any Nightwing this decade. Compare it to his other appearances in Rebirth, and even frikkin' Lobdell "Destroyer of Teen Titans" can write better Dick than him.

----------


## yohyoi

> oh crap! Percy is at it again with his pseudo intellectual commentary, that shit ruined GA for me


You mean the thing that saved GA and brought him back to his roots.

I might not be sold in Percy's first issue, but I see his aspirations and it is respectable. He is trying to push Nightwing out of his comfort zone. Nightwing is a combination of many characters; Spider-Man, Daredevil, Batman, Superman, James Bond, etc. It is great to see Dick Grayson pushed out of his normal world again and become something new like how he did many times in his rich history.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I just read Abnett's interview... THE. WORST. INTERVIEW.


It killed any enthusiasm I had for Titans. It's going to be an utter disaster.

Does anyone know if it was Dick or Jason in the last issue of Deathstroke? The Robin panels were dark as hell

----------


## Godlike13

Seems Bludhaven is becoming Burnside.

----------


## Restingvoice

You know what... I don't think I mind Percy's script if they go full ham. I already said the overtly political tone is kinda funny, so I can enjoy it if they revel in that ubsubtlety. Like if they can go full anime with the Dark Web being absurdly large organization and loads of mini bosses. 

The problem is the art style of the first issue make it feel serious.

...

Okay, hype's over. I'm not interested again. I'll wait for the preview.

----------


## yash

> You mean the thing that saved GA and brought him back to his roots.
> 
> I might not be sold in Percy's first issue, but I see his aspirations and it is respectable. He is trying to push Nightwing out of his comfort zone. Nightwing is a combination of many characters; Spider-Man, Daredevil, Batman, Superman, James Bond, etc. It is great to see Dick Grayson pushed out of his normal world again and become something new like how he did many times in his rich history.


 not really, his GA run had all the major characters sound like 16 years olds trying to be intellectual critics of culture, most of the time i was laughing at percy's attempts at becoming grant morrison trying to create this over reaching philosophical narrative,you need to be able to write great dialogue to do that, he failed miserably then and he will more then likely fail miserably now, i don't even know where this confidence in percy comes from

----------


## yash

> Seems Bludhaven is becoming Burnside.


 so we went from wannabe LA, to wannabe gotham, to wannabe burnside with each change of writers, and you know what, this one stings way more, LA change was to make bludhaven more in line with dick's personality,  this was done to give percy the excuse to keep bringing barbra repeatedly, this was not done to make bludhaven interesting, it was done because percy wants to write dickxbarbra

----------


## Godlike13

LA? It was Vegas/Macau like. Not LA.

----------


## yash

You are right, trying to write in short messes me up sometimes lol

----------


## berserkerclaw

i liked the new issue. loved the scene with dick babs. brought me back to classic. some would say nostalgia but i prefer Oracle to batgirl anyday.

----------


## nonsense man

Now this is something interesting an organization who spreads disinformation for multiple aims could be for political or financial gain or just causing chaos like old school anarky used to do maybe he was once a member of the dark web or calculator or Cameron Chase who knows.  Though it would be something Lois Lane would want to get on like Vicki is doing once she comes back and since bendis isnt using her or jon maybe Nightwing in this long subarc can hopefully.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Now this is something interesting an organization who spreads disinformation for multiple aims could be for political or financial gain or just causing chaos like old school anarky used to do maybe he was once a member of the dark web or calculator or Cameron Chase who knows.  Though it would be something Lois Lane would want to get on like Vicki is doing once she comes back and since bendis isnt using her or jon maybe Nightwing in this long subarc can hopefully.


What if Vicki is Dick Grayson's....new boss :OOOOOO

NW is the new Jimmy Olson. :OOOOOOOOOO

It's been a long day....

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, he's gonna make sure Vicki gets in her reps...

----------


## Dzetoun

> Ya, he's gonna make sure Vicki gets in her reps...


Well, in fairness (hard to cling to these days, but one tries), Percy DID say that the "personal trainer" job would be going by the wayside pretty quickly.

----------


## Godlike13

Did he?
...

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, in fairness (hard to cling to these days, but one tries), Percy DID say that the "personal trainer" job would be going by the wayside pretty quickly.


awww, it never even got kinky

----------


## dropkickjake

Honestly, I think the biggest problem with Bludhaven right now is how much focus its getting. Gotham organically grew to be almost "its own character" over decades. With the return to Bludhaven, its gotten this spotlight that it just doesn't need to have.

I'm honestly not a fan of the tech haven because I just don't think it has staying power. No one else will want to write this. Casino Haven does. It just doesn't need to be the whole point of a freaking arc. We had an entire arc to establish bludhaven. Then another to establish Blockbuster. Screw that. Don't try to write a good Bludhaven story. Write a good story that happens to be set in Bludhaven.

I agree that the Nightwing brand is a good one. I think its all the "reinventing" that is killing us. It seems obvious the things that have worked for the character, as a fan. The "direction" should be simple. 

Let him be a costumed hero based in Bludhaven who fights crime there, but it leads him to tracking down worldwide organized crime (which makes sense with an atlantic city style bludhaven). Dick doesn't work well alone; he needs a partner. It can be an established hero from time to time, or an original character (like Tiger and Raptor were). It can be an actual partner or a protege.

The only thing I don't see as a no brainer is a "day job." I actually think that attorney (particularly prosecuting) would make sense for him, but the whole daredevil thing kinda ruins it (plus him canonically not even having a Bachelor's).

----------


## Rac7d*

> Honestly, I think the biggest problem with Bludhaven right now is how much focus its getting. Gotham organically grew to be almost "its own character" over decades. With the return to Bludhaven, its gotten this spotlight that it just doesn't need to have.
> 
> I'm honestly not a fan of the tech haven because I just don't think it has staying power. No one else will want to write this. Casino Haven does. It just doesn't need to be the whole point of a freaking arc. We had an entire arc to establish bludhaven. Then another to establish Blockbuster. Screw that. Don't try to write a good Bludhaven story. Write a good story that happens to be set in Bludhaven.
> 
> I agree that the Nightwing brand is a good one. I think its all the "reinventing" that is killing us. It seems obvious the things that have worked for the character, as a fan. The "direction" should be simple. 
> 
> Let him be a costumed hero based in Bludhaven who fights crime there, but it leads him to tracking down worldwide organized crime (which makes sense with an atlantic city style bludhaven). Dick doesn't work well alone; he needs a partner. It can be an established hero from time to time, or an original character (like Tiger and Raptor were). It can be an actual partner or a protege.
> 
> The only thing I don't see as a no brainer is a "day job." I actually think that attorney (particularly prosecuting) would make sense for him, but the whole daredevil thing kinda ruins it (plus him canonically not even having a Bachelor's).


Is it a problem? You never know how long Bldhaven is gonna be around plus its not the 80s so gving chracter to Percy's Bludhaven while he can is a must
Nightwing is Bludhavens only hero, thats alot of responsibility, if batman not around gotham has like 12 other heroes, Stephanie should moove out their
Dick works fine on his own hes just more fun working with others since he is compatible with anyone. My favorite issues in Dixons run where his collabs and teamups
Robin, batgirl show up enough, i wish Midnighter would say hello sometime

People are really agasint the trainer job, it perfect, he makes his own hours, it will never get in the way of his work.. He can still build relationships with clients and towneys
I also like that he didnt complete college, that path is forced on the youth when their are alternatives and Dick is a good example of that

----------


## Dzetoun

> Did he?
> ...


fresh-blood-in-bludhaven-an-interview-with-nightwing-writer-benjamin-percy/

----------


## yash

At this point i say go full millenial f*ckboi and start a travel vlog channel and become an instagram model, he would probably outearn everybody in that niche

----------


## Godlike13

> fresh-blood-in-bludhaven-an-interview-with-nightwing-writer-benjamin-percy/


Well that’s something.

----------


## oasis1313

> What if Vicki is Dick Grayson's....new boss :OOOOOO
> 
> NW is the new Jimmy Olson. :OOOOOOOOOO
> 
> It's been a long day....


Dick + Vicky . . . creepy . . .

----------


## Restingvoice

> At this point i say go full millenial f*ckboi and start a travel vlog channel and become an instagram model, he would probably outearn everybody in that niche


Ooh. Make all those Tumblr Dick Grayson Aesthetic Role Playing real.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Dick + Vicky . . . creepy . . .


lol I meant as work buddies.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Is it a problem? You never know how long Bldhaven is gonna be around plus its not the 80s so gving chracter to Percy's Bludhaven while he can is a must
> Nightwing is Bludhavens only hero, thats alot of responsibility, if batman not around gotham has like 12 other heroes, Stephanie should moove out their
> Dick works fine on his own hes just more fun working with others since he is compatible with anyone. My favorite issues in Dixons run where his collabs and teamups
> Robin, batgirl show up enough, i wish Midnighter would say hello sometime
> 
> People are really agasint the trainer job, it perfect, he makes his own hours, it will never get in the way of his work.. He can still build relationships with clients and towneys
> I also like that he didnt complete college, that path is forced on the youth when their are alternatives and Dick is a good example of that


Yeah, I think it is a problem. If you put your spotlight on the most mediocre dancer in a show, the audience is going to come away unimpressed even if the other dancers were incredibly talented.

I may have overstated it when I said "he doesn't work well alone." I really just meant that if he works so much better with a partner, he should constantly have one.

And the trainer job makes sense, but it is utterly uninteresting. It adds nothing to the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

The trainer job does feel... generic. It's not as impressive as a circus owner or museum curator, and not as exciting as a cop.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Let him finish college and become a criminal justice lawyer like he was on Earth Two which didn’t spend much time on him in that area. Too many of Bruce protégés have no Civilian life what so ever.

----------


## TheCape

> Let him finish college and become a criminal justice lawyer like he was on Earth Two which didn’t spend much time on him in that area. Too many of Bruce protégés have no Civilian life what so ever.


Wouldn't that make even more of "Daredevil-lite" in the eyes of the fans?. (Just asking, i actually think than that carreer would suit him).

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Wouldn't that make even more of "Daredevil-lite" in the eyes of the fans?. (Just asking, i actually think than that carreer would suit him).


It would but Percy is doing that and DC seems to support that, he is not blind and has Wayne funding. He was a apart of the Cranston & Grayson law firm with Arthur Cranston who was an experienced vet so Dick wont have to be the lead. My other choice would be To retcon his family members back into existence in Charles Grayson & Harriet Cooper. Charles was responsible for creating the Robert Crane Robotman by transferring his Brain into the body, Charles later developed a Brain disease in which he donated his body to allow Robert Crane to be human again. Charles (Bob Crane Brain) could be a support character and provide a full body Robotman Suit for Dick allowing him a efficient means of Justice.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The trainer job does feel... generic. It's not as impressive as a circus owner or museum curator, and not as exciting as a cop.


neither is a reporter

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## dropkickjake

> Let him finish college and become a criminal justice lawyer like he was on Earth Two which didnt spend much time on him in that area. Too many of Bruce protégés have no Civilian life what so ever.


YES.

I think this can be made to work so well. You could make an argument that Batman's early days, before the fall of Harvey Dent, was something of a golden age. Batman had an ally in the PD who would work with him to put the criminals away and an ally in the in District Attorney's office who wasn't afraid prosecute. It could be said to have been the most optimistic time of Batman's career, where it really seemed like they were going to succeed and clean up Gotham. Dick wanting to bring back that era of optimism could be a convincing story. Plus, he has a little bit of history with Two-Face. (I think. I can't really remember.) 

Also, it would solve the problem of Dick always being the "dumber partner," without his particular intelligence stepping on the toes of the likes of Tim and Babs. Also, being a courtroom lawyer (rather than a searching through the annals one) would be a way to play to his strength as a performer. 

Starting out as an intern and working his way up could be a super long standing direction.

----------


## Rac7d*

> YES.
> 
> I think this can be made to work so well. You could make an argument that Batman's early days, before the fall of Harvey Dent, was something of a golden age. Batman had an ally in the PD who would work with him to put the criminals away and an ally in the in District Attorney's office who wasn't afraid prosecute. It could be said to have been the most optimistic time of Batman's career, where it really seemed like they were going to succeed and clean up Gotham. Dick wanting to bring back that era of optimism could be a convincing story. Plus, he has a little bit of history with Two-Face. (I think. I can't really remember.) 
> 
> Also, it would solve the problem of Dick always being the "dumber partner," without his particular intelligence stepping on the toes of the likes of Tim and Babs. Also, being a courtroom lawyer (rather than a searching through the annals one) would be a way to play to his strength as a performer. 
> 
> Starting out as an intern and working his way up could be a super long standing direction.


Not having a degree does not make you dumb, but we are at a point where even if went to school he would never finsh becasue a years time is not allowed to go by before DC shifts anyway

Dick about to have his biggest year in a while

Young Justice: OUtisder
Leading 2 comic titles
TTGO Film
Titans

all in 2018

His brand will either take off now or never and if it does we should get some solid Movie news next year then

----------


## dropkickjake

> Not having a degree does not make you dumb,


Never said it did. But if they guy was in law school, people would (presumably) have a tough time writing him as unintelligent, which has in the past happened when he has shared panel space with Babs, Tim, or Bruce.

----------


## Godlike13

I feel like hero in school has been thoroughly explored in comics. Im telling you guys, professional gambler...

----------


## dropkickjake

> I feel like hero in school has been thoroughly explored in comics. Im telling you guys, professional gambler...


I really like the idea of this as a hobby and maybe even a problem. I don't think I like it as a profession.

I certainly don't want to watch Dick work towards his Bachelor's, but a little bit of a fuzzy time jump to "Welp, finally finished up the degree, what next..." leading to law school/interning with a law firm would be fun.

edit: eh, screw it. I'd read the hell out of him going to high stakes hold 'em tournaments around the world. Who am I kidding.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I feel like hero in school has been thoroughly explored in comics. Im telling you guys, professional gambler...


He is too much of a boy scout for that
Your thinkin of Roy or jason with that stuff dicks only vice is his libido

----------


## The World

> He is too much of a boy scout for that
> Your thinkin of Roy or jason with that stuff dicks only vice is his libido


He's a person that runs around punching people in the face for kicks. You don't really put gambling as worse than that do you? Everytime we ask the question about Dick's "civillian" life we usually come to the answer of there being no real point because it adds nothing to the character. It's something that actively impedes telling stories rather than enhance them or the character.

----------


## Godlike13

> He is too much of a boy scout for that
> Your thinkin of Roy or jason with that stuff dicks only vice is his libido


Except he’s not. He’s already the one who likes to do things without a net, and has been shown to be a thrill seeker. Him gambling would fit his personality. And not only that it would further connect him to this new Bludhaven, and could actually be something that challenges his character and even be entertaining to watch him do.

----------


## oasis1313

> Never said it did. But if they guy was in law school, people would (presumably) have a tough time writing him as unintelligent, which has in the past happened when he has shared panel space with Babs, Tim, or Bruce.


He wouldn't have to go to classes.  Even years ago in graduate school, I knew people who lived in another state, had class transcriptions mailed to them (could be e-mailed nowadays), and just showed up every six weeks to take the tests.  Dick has had so much experience with the law he could probably pass the bar exam right now without even bothering with the transcripts.  It could be done in a blink, comic-book wise, off-stage really.  When did we see Barbara running for Congress?  She was a librarian one month and then she was just suddenly in national office.  Tim goes from being a nerdy everyman to a super-genius who already far surpasses Reed Richard and Tony Stark combined; DC has a "so let it be written, so let it be done" attitude.  Why NOT: "Oh, Dick finished med school last month."  I've come to believe that it's a mistake to allow these young characters to age--a month might pass for US but the months are not passing in the same way for comic book characters; if I had been publisher of DC, I would probably never have allowed Dick Grayson to get out of high school because it's caused problems all over the DC-verse.  Not saying it's a right or wrong opinion; I just think permitting Dick to go to Hudson U created more trouble than it was worth.  But the damage is done, so Dick's brain should be repaired.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Except he’s not. He’s already the one who likes to do things without a net, and has been shown to be a thrill seeker. Him gambling would fit his personality. And not only that it would further connect him to this new Bludhaven, and could actually be something that challenges his character and even be entertaining to watch him do.


Your mistaking him for Sterling Archer Thrill seeker, but in the self destructive type, no suprise since this site wants dick grayson to be him.  Dick grayson likes Adventures, physical challenges, thrilling for him would be a spartan race, anything pushing his limits which makes  personal trainer vibe fit.

Casinos is are only for undercover missions

----------


## dropkickjake

> Except he’s not. He’s already the one who likes to do things without a net, and has been shown to be a thrill seeker. Him gambling would fit his personality. And not only that it would further connect him to this new Bludhaven, and could actually be something that challenges his character and even be entertaining to watch him do.


It would also be interesting in relation to Dick's history with money. Especially since n52, there has been emphasis placed on him growing up in a circus, so until he was either in late childhood or early adolescence (but certainly long enough really impact his character) his family didn't have or need money. Its sorta depicted that he had this adventurous joyful childhood and loving family, and that he didn't really feel like he was missing out. Then, suddenly, he was surrounded by more money than you could shake a stick at. That's got to make for an interesting attitude toward finance as an adult.




> He wouldn't have to go to classes.  Even years ago in graduate school, I ...
> 
> ... the damage is done, so Dick's brain should be repaired.


This makes me want him in law school even more. I don't really want the "him in class" angle as much as him being a young intern for a law firm, pursuing one day becoming district attorney. 




> Your mistaking him for Sterling Archer Thrill seeker, but in the self destructive type, no suprise since this site wants dick grayson to be him.  Dick grayson likes Adventures, physical challenges, thrilling for him would be a spartan race, anything pushing his limits which makes  personal trainer vibe fit.
> 
> Casinos is are only for undercover missions


I don't think Dick gambling as a Hobby would make him Sterling Archer. For one, he respects people and is kind and witty far more often than he is sarcastic and a (hilarious) asshole. I also quite doubt that a spartan race would be anything near thrilling for him. We're talking about a guy who swings from buildings and grew up on trapezes without nets with real death on the line. A trip to the gym or a muddy obstacle course wouldn't register on his adrenaline meter. In probably the best run on the old 96 Nightwing series, Tomasi had him take up skydiving as a hobby because he loved the rush. I think gambling would easily fit that mold. Taking risks seeking thrills. It would be totally in character for him to take it up as a hobby, and for that thrill seeking behavior to *maybe* turn into a problem of character flaw.

----------


## Restingvoice

> neither is a reporter


Wait, is that confirmed or just speculation?

Yea I like the gambler, ********thing... but only as an undercover job. I don't remember if Dick ever expresses liking to that world. It needs to be something he's interested in. What is his hobby?

Skydiving. Acrobatics. Those are thrill-seeking hobbies he likes. Something physical and dangerous. Hm, a cop is actually the closest to danger. Well, no, actually that's just Nightwing. So he already got the thrill from his heroics. 

His job then should be a chance to take a break. Something a bit more relaxing and not as physically taxing.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't think Dick gambling as a Hobby would make him Sterling Archer. For one, he respects people and is kind and witty far more often than he is sarcastic and a (hilarious) asshole. I also quite doubt that a spartan race would be anything near thrilling for him. We're talking about a guy who swings from buildings and grew up on trapezes without nets with real death on the line. A trip to the gym or a muddy obstacle course wouldn't register on his adrenaline meter. In probably the best run on the old 96 Nightwing series, Tomasi had him take up skydiving as a hobby because he loved the rush. I think gambling would easily fit that mold. Taking risks seeking thrills. It would be totally in character for him to take it up as a hobby, and for that thrill seeking behavior to *maybe* turn into a problem of character flaw.


Exactly. 
...

----------


## Lady Nightwing

In Humphries run, didn't he say that Dick had a degree in criminology? He could work in crime lab and covertly slip leads to Svoboda.

----------


## byrd156

> Except he’s not. He’s already the one who likes to do things without a net, and has been shown to be a thrill seeker. Him gambling would fit his personality. And not only that it would further connect him to this new Bludhaven, and could actually be something that challenges his character and even be entertaining to watch him do.


I could see Dick doing it for a time. Like you said Dick is a thrill seeker but I don't see gambling as something that would keep him rooted for long. I'm down to see it but I don't know how long it would last.

----------


## byrd156

> Dick + Vicky . . . creepy . . .


I don't really see it being creepy since we haven't really seen Vicki. You could easily de-age her a bit. When was the last time she appeared? She's a bat related character that I don't think gets enough love and I wouldn't mind seeing her show up and hang around Nightwing's book.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't really see it being creepy since we haven't really seen Vicki. You could easily de-age her a bit. When was the last time she appeared? She's a bat related character that I don't think gets enough love and I wouldn't mind seeing her show up and hang around Nightwing's book.


Like on-panel? I can only think of _Batman Eternal._

----------


## Mataza

Just give him a Team. Or at least a sidekick.

----------


## Godlike13

He has a team, and its been an utter nightmare. Its truly sad but teams don't seem to benefit him anymore for some reason. He just come off looking like shit. I don't get it, but I seriously can't remember the last team he was on team that actually benefited his character or presented him favorably. Seriously someone on his own team always ends up kicking his ass for some reason even.

----------


## Mataza

I dont mean it like this, a team of younger heroes he can lead and teach. The titans have very little respect for nightwings authority as the leader. He is their friend first and foremost.

Dick has a lot to teach, and its a good opportunity to give him an interesting struggle and a place to grow.

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, That's the Titan's new direction. Dick on teams is just a prop to help try and get other character over. Next it'll be Miss Martian kicking his ass. Just wait an see.

On that note, damn you DC. Ive gone from saying how Dick needs a team prior to Rebirth, to now keep him out of teams altogether. That make's me sad...

----------


## Mataza

I was talking about a role similar to wolverine. Maybe a moral compass for troubled kids as well.

----------


## Restingvoice

> In Humphries run, didn't he say that Dick had a degree in criminology? He could work in a crime lab and covertly slip leads to Svoboda.


Too close to Barry. I also imagine if Dick is anywhere near a crime, he'd prefer to be on the field, gathering evidence on his own, analyzing them and capturing the perpetrator as a superhero detective. Barry needs to be in crime lab because he was looking for his mother's murderer.

----------


## WonderNight

> LoL, That's the Titan's new direction. Dick on teams is just a prop to help try and get other character over. Next it'll be Miss Martian kicking his ass. Just wait an see.
> 
> On that note, damn you DC. Ive gone from saying how Dick needs a team prior to Rebirth, to now keep him out of teams altogether. That make's me sad...


Sidekick it is then.

----------


## Naked Bat

Dick on Doom Patrol. They ask for his help because they have trouble interacting with other heroes.

----------


## Vinsanity

Manager for an MLS team. Just saying lol.

----------


## jbmasta

> Too close to Barry. I also imagine if Dick is anywhere near a crime, he'd prefer to be on the field, gathering evidence on his own, analyzing them and capturing the perpetrator as a superhero detective. Barry needs to be in crime lab because he was looking for his mother's murderer.


Dick would make a good teacher teaching criminology. His firsthand experience is second only to Batman, his day job depends on the writer (cop, circus manager, bartender, rehabilitating former criminals, running a gym etc) and it's a decent cover for using lab equipment on Nightwing cases. Sometimes he may get inspiration for a break on a Nightwing case from work one of his students submits. It would be funny to see Dick try to get Damien or Alfred to mark papers. It's not encroaching onto Barry's territory as a CSI, and an organic way for Dick to meet his next love interest (if DC tease him with Barbara, get them together or stop the teasing).

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick would make a good teacher teaching criminology. His firsthand experience is second only to Batman, his day job depends on the writer (cop, circus manager, bartender, rehabilitating former criminals, running a gym etc) and it's a decent cover for using lab equipment on Nightwing cases. Sometimes he may get inspiration for a break on a Nightwing case from work one of his students submits. It would be funny to see Dick try to get Damien or Alfred to mark papers. It's not encroaching onto Barry's territory as a CSI, and an organic way for Dick to meet his next love interest (if DC tease him with Barbara, get them together or stop the teasing).


Hey yeah. That could work. He has the skills, the teaching experience, it's social, and if it's in a campus there's loads and loads of supporting cast and areas they could explore. It's like Saint Hadrian, but lawful good. ^^ 

Does he have the degree/qualifications, that's the question, because I heard he didn't graduate.

----------


## oasis1313

> I dont mean it like this, a team of younger heroes he can lead and teach. The titans have very little respect for nightwings authority as the leader. He is their friend first and foremost.
> 
> Dick has a lot to teach, and its a good opportunity to give him an interesting struggle and a place to grow.


With friends like most of the Titans, Dick doesn't need enemies.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Manager for an MLS team. Just saying lol.


lolwut?




> LoL, That's the Titan's new direction. Dick on teams is just a prop to help try and get other character over. Next it'll be Miss Martian kicking his ass. Just wait an see.
> 
> On that note, damn you DC. Ive gone from saying how Dick needs a team prior to Rebirth, to now keep him out of teams altogether. That make's me sad...


I mean, he can have a team, it just needs to be written by literally any human other than abnett.




> In Humphries run, didn't he say that Dick had a degree in criminology? He could work in crime lab and covertly slip leads to Svoboda.


That would be news to me. But then, I didn't read Humpries run, so...




> Dick would make a good teacher teaching criminology. His firsthand experience is second only to Batman, his day job depends on the writer (cop, circus manager, bartender, rehabilitating former criminals, running a gym etc) and it's a decent cover for using lab equipment on Nightwing cases. Sometimes he may get inspiration for a break on a Nightwing case from work one of his students submits. It would be funny to see Dick try to get Damien or Alfred to mark papers. It's not encroaching onto Barry's territory as a CSI, and an organic way for Dick to meet his next love interest (if DC tease him with Barbara, get them together or stop the teasing).


Actually, yeah that makes more sense than I initially thought it would. I think he would find lecturing way too boring, but teaching labs and procedure and watching his students eyes light up when they first get it... thats something I could see him loving.


And that is something that I think he would need from a day job. I think he, especially as he is being written as a millenial (given that he is in his mid twenties and it is currently 2018), I think he would want to find purpose in his work. He would want it to line up with his values, or it would feel like a draining waste of time. Thats another reason that I think that personal trainer is such a freaking flop.

----------


## Rac7d*

this shoudl have happened

----------


## Godlike13

> I mean, he can have a team, it just needs to be written by literally any human other than abnett.


I know. Im just really bitter about his team situation.

----------


## jbmasta

> Hey yeah. That could work. He has the skills, the teaching experience, it's social, and if it's in a campus there's loads and loads of supporting cast and areas they could explore. It's like Saint Hadrian, but lawful good. ^^ 
> 
> Does he have the degree/qualifications, that's the question, because I heard he didn't graduate.


I’m sure Bruce wouldn’t mind greasing the wheels a bit. Dick would be annoyed, but get over it after seeing the positives. Still, the campus would undergo regular damage if it was Dick’s hub (if his position came with accomodation). Certainly his class would fill up when people hear about the hot new criminology teacher (bringing in tuition money for the school as well). Even a teaching assistant position would allow for this setting.

Also, Dick would have a reason to meet up with Barry, to ask advice or consult on a case. Reconnecting with the DCU.

----------


## Lazurus33

Dd_FZwpX0AA-JPn.jpg

https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy?r...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

----------


## oasis1313

> Im sure Bruce wouldnt mind greasing the wheels a bit. Dick would be annoyed, but get over it after seeing the positives. Still, the campus would undergo regular damage if it was Dicks hub (if his position came with accomodation). Certainly his class would fill up when people hear about the hot new criminology teacher (bringing in tuition money for the school as well). Even a teaching assistant position would allow for this setting.
> 
> Also, Dick would have a reason to meet up with Barry, to ask advice or consult on a case. Reconnecting with the DCU.


How long would it last when Dick starts ditching his classes again?

----------


## Rac7d*

> How long would it last when Dick starts ditching his classes again?


A traveling circus appears

----------


## oasis1313

> A traveling circus appears


And everybody says, "Oh, look!  How quaint!"

----------


## oasis1313

Three days and no sign of life here.  Has DC finally succeeded in poisoning all the Wingnuts?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Three days and no sign of life here.  Has DC finally succeeded in poisoning all the Wingnuts?

----------


## oasis1313

> 


It's true then!  We really ARE zombies!!!

----------


## TheCape

Nothing has happened so, yeah, i mean how much can we complain about Nightwing being mistreated and/or ignored, Bludhaven sucking, Titans sucking and if Dick should change his codename  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

Yeah, just not much to talk about. Dick's irrelevant in Doomsday Clock, he's irrelevant in Snyder's No Justice and big JL story, he is still stuck on a terrible Titans team written by Abnett that is going nowhere, and his solo book is now monthly and in the slow part of setting things up and focusing on Bludhaven. The only thing I'm interested in is seeing how Percy's story is supposed to expand beyond Bludhaven, but it will take several months until we get there.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yeah, just not much to talk about. Dick's irrelevant


Completely agree.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, maybe they should make him the new Oracle...

----------


## TheCape

> Ya, maybe they should make him the new Oracle...


Yeah, why not, he could be Barbara support in the field or just leave Bludhaven to her  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

If Dick’s Titans was Independent again I would give that book a try but with him under the JL and being challenged by Miss Martian and Damian Independent I just consider Abnett another failed attempt to write the Titans.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Ya, maybe they should make him the new Oracle...


Hey now, he may be going through an irrelevant phase or a rough patch, but he's not _Tim_ levels of irrelevant.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I don't think he ever can be.

----------


## Ascended

> Hey now, he may be going through an irrelevant phase or a rough patch, but he's not _Tim_ levels of irrelevant.  I don't think he ever can be.


Oh, we're doing irrelevance again?  :Smile: 

I still maintain that Nightwing is going to be trapped in a cycle of irrelevance until DC wises up and realizes that the best way to approach the character isn't to keep him in the "Gotham" mold, but to embrace his entire, varied history and let him be something other than a Robin By Another Name.

Seriously, the solution is in the name itself. Nightwing. Sounds Bat-like. But came from Superman (and in post-Crisis was inspired by both heroes, if not Kryptonian mythology). Dick's a dude with both feet in different worlds; limiting him to just a crime-ridden city is like cutting off a leg and leaves him as a less effective, less storied Bat-lite. 

Batman and other Gotham vigilantes might moonlight on different teams like the League, but they're still Gotham vigilantes at heart. Dick isn't. Dick truly is the result of two very different paths, and his appeal lies in that dynamic, not in making him a Bat-clone. 

>sigh< DC just needs to give me the reigns to the character. I'll straighten him out.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

> Oh, we're doing irrelevance again? 
> 
> I still maintain that Nightwing is going to be trapped in a cycle of irrelevance until DC wises up and realizes that the best way to approach the character isn't to keep him in the "Gotham" mold, but to embrace his entire, varied history and let him be something other than a Robin By Another Name.
> 
> Seriously, the solution is in the name itself. Nightwing. Sounds Bat-like. But came from Superman (and in post-Crisis was inspired by both heroes, if not Kryptonian mythology). Dick's a dude with both feet in different worlds; limiting him to just a crime-ridden city is like cutting off a leg and leaves him as a less effective, less storied Bat-lite. 
> 
> Batman and other Gotham vigilantes might moonlight on different teams like the League, but they're still Gotham vigilantes at heart. Dick isn't. Dick truly is the result of two very different paths, and his appeal lies in that dynamic, not in making him a Bat-clone. 
> 
> >sigh< DC just needs to give me the reigns to the character. I'll straighten him out.


I agree, but the problem is that dc views nightwing as a sidekick no different than robin. So they write and use him as if his still robin, and not his own thing. And the sad part is they already had the answer, Nightwing agent of spyral. Compete with globetrotting, epic adventures and his own corner in the dcu. But NOPE not Batman enough.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ya, maybe they should make him the new Oracle...


According to DC's treatment for the past several years, Dick is far too stupid to be Oracle.  Perhaps he could link up with an eye camera or something and coach his intellectual betters on their fighting styles:  "Right uppercut NOW, Babs!"

----------


## Rac7d*

> According to DC's treatment for the past several years, Dick is far too stupid to be Oracle.  Perhaps he could link up with an eye camera or something and coach his intellectual betters on their fighting styles:  "Right uppercut NOW, Babs!"


Good lord,  so he not technological wizard, why does everyone in the DCU have to be super genius. Do you consider yourself stupid, becasue you cant  keep up with professional mathematician. Everyone has different specailty, streghts and weaknesses. If you really liked Dick grayons for who he is you would appreciate his. 

Oracle is pretty much rendred useless Now that cyborg is a technological demi god

----------


## Restingvoice

The lasts one-shots of Nightwing look good, like the Wedding Prelude, and every time Damian guest star, but that's about it. I made myself clear on what I want, and since DC is not interested in giving that, I'm gone. I'll take what I can get, which are those one-shots, but I'm not going to wait for the rest. It's a waste of time and energy when it's not my job to keep a character interesting. If DC and me don't see eye to eye then they're not for me and that is that.

----------


## Ascended

> I agree, but the problem is that dc views nightwing as a sidekick no different than robin. So they write and use him as if his still robin, and not his own thing. And the sad part is they already had the answer, Nightwing agent of spyral. Compete with globetrotting, epic adventures and his own corner in the dcu. But NOPE not Batman enough.


Honestly, I think Nightwing would probably fare better right now if they tried to play up his connections to Superman. 

The Man of Steel doesn't sell like the Bat does now, but I think the idea of a powerless vigilante operating in that superhuman sphere would provide enough originality and incentive to garner some measure of interest and curiosity in Nightwing, and with Bendis taking over the main Super line there's a lot of eyes on the "S" franchise right now. 

Six months in Suicide Slum could be the refresher Dick needs at the moment. Since DC is determined to keep Dick in the "senior sidekick" role, and things have gone stale with the Gotham style stuff, might as well send Dick over to 'kick with his favorite uncle for a while.

But ultimately, I agree; Nightwing: Super Spy is likely the best approach to get Dick relevant again. That's the way I'd go if I had the authority to dictate creative decisions, anyway. Hell, a whole new status quo for the character opened up in my mind once the idea took root.

----------


## oasis1313

I think it'd be fun to see Dick getting out and about more.  Hanging out with Superman, maybe forming a new team and leaving the Titans.

----------


## Armor of God

> Honestly, I think Nightwing would probably fare better right now if they tried to play up his connections to Superman. 
> 
> The Man of Steel doesn't sell like the Bat does now, but I think the idea of a powerless vigilante operating in that superhuman sphere would provide enough originality and incentive to garner some measure of interest and curiosity in Nightwing, and with Bendis taking over the main Super line there's a lot of eyes on the "S" franchise right now. 
> 
> Six months in Suicide Slum could be the refresher Dick needs at the moment. Since DC is determined to keep Dick in the "senior sidekick" role, and things have gone stale with the Gotham style stuff, might as well send Dick over to 'kick with his favorite uncle for a while.
> 
> But ultimately, I agree; Nightwing: Super Spy is likely the best approach to get Dick relevant again. That's the way I'd go if I had the authority to dictate creative decisions, anyway. Hell, a whole new status quo for the character opened up in my mind once the idea took root.


Dont agree with this, the Superline can barely support its own core characters these days. The only thing that'll happen is that Nightwing will Batmanize the Super corner and then Superman fans will start complaining anyway.

----------


## oasis1313

I'm okay with Dick in Batbooks as long as he's not treated like an idiot or Bruce's punching bag.  You could go with the idea of The Bat-Family as The Firm, with all of them participating as active members--perhaps in cool cities around the world.

----------


## Ascended

> Dont agree with this, the Superline can barely support its own core characters these days.


Sure, but it's not like Nightwing sells terribly great by being handled as Bat-lite by DC, and it's not like his connections to the Batclan would disappear. Spending more time in Metropolis might not increase sales by a whole ton, but leaving things as they currently are certainly won't increase sales. 




> The only thing that'll happen is that Nightwing will Batmanize the Super corner and then Superman fans will start complaining anyway.


Batmanizing the rest of the DCU doesn't require direct contact with the Gotham crowd. It's not HIV.  :Smile:  And DC has already tried that anyway so it's not like Nightwing being around for six months will change anything. And us Super-fans complain already.  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

> Sure, but it's not like Nightwing sells terribly great by being handled as Bat-lite by DC, and it's not like his connections to the Batclan would disappear. Spending more time in Metropolis might not increase sales by a whole ton, but leaving things as they currently are certainly won't increase sales. 
> 
> 
> 
> Batmanizing the rest of the DCU doesn't require direct contact with the Gotham crowd. It's not HIV.  And DC has already tried that anyway so it's not like Nightwing being around for six months will change anything. And us Super-fans complain already.


I wish that (was it Tomasi?) idea of Dick being a museum curator (that only lasted--what?--two issues) had been explored.  That could have put him in an Indianna Jones-type of situation.  Best of all, nobody would expect regular work hours out of him.

----------


## TheCape

> I wish that (was it Tomasi?) idea of Dick being a museum curator (that only lasted--what?--two issues) had been explored.  That could have put him in an Indianna Jones-type of situation.  Best of all, nobody would expect regular work hours out of him.


Yeah, Tomasi was the one that came with Museum Curator idea.

----------


## Godlike13

That job was so random.

----------


## jbmasta

> I wish that (was it Tomasi?) idea of Dick being a museum curator (that only lasted--what?--two issues) had been explored.  That could have put him in an Indiana Jones-type of situation.  Best of all, nobody would expect regular work hours out of him.


And his travel could be justified by the job.

----------


## oasis1313

> That job was so random.


More random than being a bartender or busboy?

----------


## Godlike13

Yes.
......

----------


## TheCape

> Yes.
> ......


Most of Dick jobs are kind of random if you ask me.

----------


## Ascended

I think Dick definitely needs some kind of odd, unusual job that not just anyone would stumble into.

I just can't see him punching a clock. I think the monotony would drive him insane. He needs something challenging, that forces him into different situations constantly. 

Being a pro extreme athlete has been my personal choice for a while now. Something like a snowboarder or dirt bike racer. It lets him travel, it explains the bruises and scars, it has a short pro season and odd hours. And as long as Nightwing is at least a little tiny bit covert, he can avoid a lot of the "Dick Grayson was in Paris last week, so was Nightwing. Now Dick is in Mexico, and so is Nightwing. Ain't that odd?" secret identity stuff......but it's still close enough to "danger" to spin a few good stories out of it. 

But really, anything that keeps him out of an office and off regular hours would probably suffice. I just can't see the guy being happy with any kind of 9-5, even if it's something totally in his wheelhouse like "teacher" or "social worker."

----------


## Restingvoice

I like that we are as confused as DC about his job, so at least in this case it's not just a DC problem ^^

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing #46 Variant by Ben Oliver



Helluva upgrade from JR JR

----------


## Pohzee

I'll throw my hat in this Dick day job ring.

None.

Time and time again this has been proven to be a dead end for Dick. Day jobs and civilian lives are remnants of an older time in comics. Bruce continues to hold his job at Wayne Enterprises to establish a rationale behind funding his arsenal, but it has been a long time since writers have cared to develop this part of hero's lives. And frankly, for Dick, its too late to start. 

Success for characters at DC seems to be rooted in foundations from the past, and Dick benefits from this. His ubiquity as Robin added importance to his transition to Nightwing. But Dick's history is as a kid sidekick. He has no historical job, nothing strongly associated to his character. And that's why nothing sticks.

Looking back to Dick's time in the '60s and '70s, I see two options, but I don't like either.

1.) Dick as a journalist. This works for a few reasons. It has precedent. Dick served on his high school newspaper staff as well as at Hudson University. So it's something he's done before. It could also give him a good reason to be a crime scenes a-la Spidey or reason to travel out-of-country for globe-trotting international stories. Lastly, it could be used as a link between him and Clark, a bond that sorely needs strengthened and redeveloped. BUT that brings up the obvious downsides. Journalist superheroes are already well represented by Supes and Spidey. Setting Dick up here sets him up for comparison against much more popular superheroes and he will always come out looking derivative.

2.) Business and marketing. Dick was going to college for business before he dropped out. He was described as a natural at it, he just didn't complete his coursework. He is pretty good at reading people typically. So I think that he would be a naturally good fit at a business or marketing position somewhere. Logically, Wayne Industries would a good choice because of it connection to Bruce, Batman, and Gotham, with global connections, but Dick would never work there because he has a desire to step out from Bruce's shadow. So that leaves us with a problem. Dick can go to LexCorp or maybe Kord Industries, but otherwise, he's just going to another nameless boring 9-5 no better that bartending. I could see Dick bringing energy to a marketing pitch or strategy, one that is exciting to customers, but it will never be exciting to me as a reader. So Wayne Enterprises or bust, but he'd never take it.

Then of course there are other jobs that logically fit with Dick's activities as a crimefighter, but those run into similar problems that Dick has as a journalist. Other heroes are already more well cemented in these roles. It would make sense for Dick to be a criminologist or detective or forensic analyst, but Barry Allen has that covered. Dick could be a prosecutor of criminals or defense attorney for the unfairly accused, but Matt Murdock's got the lawyer bit down.

So that leaves me with what I would do with Dick. He would be a superhero full time. It makes sense narratively for the character. Publication history is important to a character's success and status quo, and Dick's only consistent trappings are his superheroing. Unlike all other popular DC heroes, he didn't become a superhero as an adult. He didn't have a relatively normal childhood and friendships. He never had an established career before he put on a colorful costume. He was raised as a superhero. It was his "first job" as a teenager (minus the circus bit). It is where he developed his first set of friends. Ultimately, Dick gave up his college education and future career to be a superhero. He doesn't have anything else. He is a superhero.

Both from an in-story and wholistic perspective, Dick's attempts at establishing a life outside of superheroing have failed. He failed out of Hudson University. Blüdhaven got nuked. He's never been able to keep a job or establish lasting friendships with normal people. So I'd make a story acknowledging that. I would have Dick realize that he is not cut out for normal life and that he will never establish a lasting civilian job or relationships. From there I would have him build upon his strengths. What has remained consistent for Dick throughout the years is his occupation superheroing. His role as a leader, and his relationships with superheroes. He has lasting relationships with Batman, Barbara, and the Titans. And I'm suggesting that we trap him there, but use that as a building point. 

Dick Grayson has no need for a day job. He can be a career superhero. This could be accomplished a few ways. The obvious way would be to say that he has inheritance from Bruce or the Graysons, but that's pretty boring and not something that I would see Dick doing given his desire for independence. He would never take money from Bruce. However, there is one way that I could see this working. Dick receives funds not directly from Bruce, but as an operative of Batman, Inc. Obviously this appears similar at first glance, but this would be earned on the merit of his superheroing (like other heroes such as Batwing and the Knight) rather than from his familial connection to Bruce. I quite liked Seeley's description of "Batman's one-man strike force of one." Make him a global Batman, Inc. agent.

Alternatively, he could work the government. An intelligence agency like Argus or Checkmate or just a US-Sanctioned superhero group. This could obviously create conflict if he disagrees with government interests, but that is part of what made Grayson so interesting.

Lastly, he could go public. Dick has been described as the heart of the DCU, someone who grew up in it and is trusted by everyone, but I've only seen that supported by like one scan of a Johns TT comic from a decade ago. So lets build on that. I'm sure that the Teen Wonder was a heartthrob as he matured. Being the partner of the goddamn Batman puts a spotlight on him. He's grown up in this world. So why not have him publicize it. Use it to his advantage. Sell books, give interviews and photo ops while continuing to help people. A celebrity superhero. With no civilian life, this poses no threat to anyone. Except Bruce's secret identity of course. But Batman, Inc. provides the perfect smokescreen for this. Bruce can cite Dick as his inspiration to fund Batman's expenditures and and otherwise distance himself from Dick's public superheroing.

Oh one more. They can just stick him in Titans Tower without a job and just not address it and that'd probably work too I guess!  :Wink:

----------


## OversizedLoad

Nightwing #45 preview on Percy's twitter:

https://twitter.com/Benjamin_Percy/s...51192887398406

----------


## dropkickjake

> I'll throw my hat in this Dick day job ring.
> 
> None.
> 
> ...
> 
> Oh one more. They can just stick him in Titans Tower without a job and just not address it and that'd probably work too I guess!


Killer response. Super well thought out and fun to read. I particularly agree with the Batman Inc. idea. That actually seems like it could have been the perfect compromise between Grayson and Nightwing. Spy and Superhero. It would continue Grayson's habit of running with discarded Morrisonian concepts. 

It could work in any number of ways, too. Dick could be more than agent, with his experience in Spyral and his interconnections within the DCU he could practically run the organization. DC seems content to keep Bruce in Gotham rather than globetrotting, so running Batman Inc. could easily something he doesn't want to work on directly, but would only trust to someone he knows as well as Dick. Dick could go on missions recruiting members and such. Or it could be set up more like Grayson, where he isn't running the organization, but is something of their ace. Either way would give plenty of opportunity to build a supporting cast both from familiar characters and new. Maybe Alfred would be the one running the show (the "M" character, if you will), or Dick recruits the Skull Girls. 

Sigh. if only.

----------


## Ascended

> Alternatively, he could work the government. An intelligence agency like Argus or Checkmate or just a US-Sanctioned superhero group. This could obviously create conflict if he disagrees with government interests, but that is part of what made Grayson so interesting.


I think making him the leader of Spyral would be my ideal niche for Nightwing. DC doesn't have a super-spy the way Marvel has Nick Fury, and it's a role that's largely overlooked in the current Big 2 market. Dick obviously has connections there already, and it could provide a chance to tie DC's intelligence agencies together and make that corner of the DCU a little tighter and more cohesive.  

And if it were up to me, he'd "borrow" some of the tech concepts from the Heavy arc in Snyder's Batman. That Bat-blimp with the search light? The mech armor that has an auto pilot (which Dick wouldn't be piloting but his field agents might)? Those (among a few others) are damned cool ideas that deserve to show up somewhere and I wouldn't be at all against Nightwing's Spyral taking them for his own. Plus, with a few design tweaks it'd give Spyral a visual identity that's instantly recognizable and shows Dick's history with the Batclan, without being a total Bat-rip like the Colony was/is over in 'Tec.




> Lastly, he could go public. Dick has been described as the heart of the DCU, someone who grew up in it and is trusted by everyone, but I've only seen that supported by like one scan of a Johns TT comic from a decade ago. So lets build on that. I'm sure that the Teen Wonder was a heartthrob as he matured. Being the partner of the goddamn Batman puts a spotlight on him. He's grown up in this world. So why not have him publicize it. Use it to his advantage. Sell books, give interviews and photo ops while continuing to help people. A celebrity superhero. With no civilian life, this poses no threat to anyone. Except Bruce's secret identity of course. But Batman, Inc. provides the perfect smokescreen for this. Bruce can cite Dick as his inspiration to fund Batman's expenditures and and otherwise distance himself from Dick's public superheroing


If Batman Inc were still in the picture, this could work too. It'd definitely be interesting, though I cant quite see Dick making that choice. If it were just him he had to worry about? That'd be one thing. But even with Batman Inc providing a buffer between Dick and Bruce's identities, it seems like a risk I can't see Dick taking. I mean, that's not just Bruce, that's Tim and Damien and Jason and Babs, too.

----------


## K. Jones

Dick as head of Spyral would be killer for a few reasons, not least of which is that DC could finally position some of its evil super secret societies to be as high-profile and cool as H.Y.D.R.A. has proven to be in Marvel. His ... well, strange, relationship with the League of Assassins (their total comic history but also particularly their 70s O'Neil Kung-Fuisms ... his utter antagonism with the Court of Owls (and their easy access to Morrisonian and Snyderian roots) ... and of course KOBRA (with its Jack Kirby origins and style) and M.A.Z.E.

It's such a win-win.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick as head of Spyral would be killer for a few reasons, not least of which is that DC could finally position some of its evil super secret societies to be as high-profile and cool as H.Y.D.R.A. has proven to be in Marvel. His ... well, strange, relationship with the League of Assassins (their total comic history but also particularly their 70s O'Neil Kung-Fuisms ... his utter antagonism with the Court of Owls (and their easy access to Morrisonian and Snyderian roots) ... and of course KOBRA (with its Jack Kirby origins and style) and M.A.Z.E.
> 
> It's such a win-win.


We've had some really good comments lately.  I think that one thing stands out--and that is that he should LEAD whatever he's doing.  I like the idea of his being in charge of Batman Inc, training and managing other operatives for the Bat-organizations world operation.  I like the idea of him being head of Spyral who leads from the front.  I like the idea of him using his heritage as a blood descendant of the old Crowne family (maybe the ONLY one) to make the Court of Owls work for HIM, and not him being their flunky.  He could also complete law school and not be a prosecutor/defense a la Matt Murdock, but a corporate lawyer who is associated with the Wayne Foundation--perhaps the public relations director of it--someplace where he could lead others.  In the 70's, Bruce started his VIP effort (Victims Inc Program) in order to try to help crime victims--that was about as short-lived as Dick's museum curator job, BUT Dick's compassion and his natural charisma would make him perfect to LEAD that effort, and it could involve detective work, vengeance, and justice.  Dick doesn't have to completely exile himself from the whole operation in order to be his own man; it's time to become a partner instead of the first sidekick.  There are all sorts of opportunities to take Dick out of the in-the-family-out-of-the-family-angry-young-man-dutiful-son ball of wax rut that he's perpetually kept in.

----------


## WonderNight

Dick should just be Nightwing: Agent of spyral. He should be the face of DC's espionage and spy corner. I hate seeing both Grayson and spyral going to waste, especially when DC can't find what to do with him. Heck it's basically what he does on YJ just under the JL. Just have Nightwing be the green lantern of espionage. there's so many toy in that sandbox for DC.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #46 Variant by Ben Oliver
> 
> 
> 
> Helluva upgrade from JR JR


Matching covers for you and your bae

De8WqtNVQAAGBkf.jpg

Joshua Middleton made this Batgirl one. I don't know if they planned it to be a match. It's too close and too different at the same time.

----------


## RedQueen

> Matching covers for you and your bae
> 
> De8WqtNVQAAGBkf.jpg
> 
> Joshua Middleton made this Batgirl one. I don't know if they planned it to be a match. It's too close and too different at the same time.


Both are hella pretty. But yeah I bet there is some connective storyline. I know Percy is bringing in Babs as a supporting cast for Nightwing and Dick is going to be featured in Batgirl soon. 

i know it's the Two Face arc for Babs that the cover hints at, but for Dick's might be hinting at the "digital phantom" story line. 

If they are gonna be featured in both titles, there definitely has got to be some cohesiveness going on, could be a coincidence as they are both variants, or could be hinting at a long game time deal.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick should just be a professional wizard since it’s ridiculous enough to fit along the circus kid in a superhero world, requires just knowledge of Magic which honestly considering how crazy the universe isn’t too far fetched for someone like him and wizards being Old is a Old trope. He can stay at his same physical level but the sticks he has are more mystical. There are sorcerers & sorceress plus mystical entities. He will essentially be the World’s First Superhero Wizard, Constantine is more of a Warlock and involved with Heaven/Hell & Zatanna is more elite level magic. Dick would just be adding to his skill set in an efficient way.

 Bludhaven needs to operate in a unique way and if you can have Super Science Technology taking over a City then Incorporating Magic Should be the same. Dick under NO circumstances needs to be taking on the most powerful mystical beings as that should be reserved for natural Magic users. Bludhaven could be the new location for the Oblivion Bar and access to the Myrra Dimension. James Rook Nightmaster was a rock band member in his early 20’s with no interest in fighting who was given a mystical sword and being a Bar Tender is what he ended up doing mostly as he was not a natural fighter. James Rook was just a descendant given A sword, Dick is 100% a hero.

----------


## Vic Vega

> I think Dick definitely needs some kind of odd, unusual job that not just anyone would stumble into.
> 
> I just can't see him punching a clock. I think the monotony would drive him insane. He needs something challenging, that forces him into different situations constantly. 
> 
> Being a pro extreme athlete has been my personal choice for a while now. Something like a snowboarder or dirt bike racer. It lets him travel, it explains the bruises and scars, it has a short pro season and odd hours. And as long as Nightwing is at least a little tiny bit covert, he can avoid a lot of the "Dick Grayson was in Paris last week, so was Nightwing. Now Dick is in Mexico, and so is Nightwing. Ain't that odd?" secret identity stuff......but it's still close enough to "danger" to spin a few good stories out of it. 
> 
> But really, anything that keeps him out of an office and off regular hours would probably suffice. I just can't see the guy being happy with any kind of 9-5, even if it's something totally in his wheelhouse like "teacher" or "social worker."


There was an idea at some point about Dick Grayson becoming a male model (Bruce Jones run, maybe?).

I always liked that because it really seems like the kind of career somebody raised by playboy Bruce Wayne would end up in.

And it gives the same opportunities for travel that the circus did.

----------


## RedQueen

I like either card dealer or bar owner type deal for Dick. Card dealer because of the story potential for them to go a bit Bond, or bar owner because seeing him being a business owner and bars can easily fit into crime fighter stories. I want something that can help function within the story.

----------


## Restingvoice

Stole this off twitter

DfBw9HHW0AAOVXV.jpg

Hold on. I'm having a moment.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Has anyone read Prelude to the Wedding：Nightwing vs Hush？

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Stole this off twitter
> 
> DfBw9HHW0AAOVXV.jpg
> 
> Hold on. I'm having a moment.


yeah...I like it too.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vinsanity

Dick Grayson working as a sports journalist with Vicki Vale. 

That team up.

I would rather a legit job for him rather than random jobs here and there.

----------


## oasis1313

> yeah...I like it too.


But it's all right since it's Hush and not Dick.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Has anyone read Prelude to the Wedding：Nightwing vs Hush？


i did. i liked it. Hush is as crazy as ever  :Smile:  i liked the small momments the best

----------


## Lazurus33

Titans Special #1 Preview
Titans-Special-Comic-Preview-1.jpgTitans-Special-Comic-Preview-2.jpgTitans-Special-Comic-Preview-3.jpg

https://screenrant.com/nightwing-titans-new-comic-team/

----------


## oasis1313

Jessie Quick?

----------


## yohyoi

Wooh... DC won't stop giving us Dick shirtless scene. I'm out of breath. Have mercy.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm dead. We don't deserve this perfection.



P. E. R. F. E. C. T.

----------


## RedQueen

> I'm dead. We don't deserve this perfection.
> 
> 
> 
> P. E. R. F. E. C. T.


Honestly, I appreciate artists who just _know_ how to draw a good Nightwing.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Honestly, I appreciate artists who just _know_ how to draw a good Nightwing.


Tom King retweeted a tweet fangirling over this artist's rendition of Dick.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

> Wooh... DC won't stop giving us Dick shirtless scene. I'm out of breath. Have mercy.


The difference in the art here is cracking me up.

----------


## RedQueen

> Tom King retweeted a tweet fangirling over this artist's rendition of Dick.


If I was on twitter i'd probably retweet it. Nightwing had a goodlooking Wednesday.

----------


## jbmasta

> Wooh... DC won't stop giving us Dick shirtless scene. I'm out of breath. Have mercy.


The current artist on Nightwing seems to be putting hairs on his chest.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick Grayson's REAL superpower:  Gorgeousness.

----------


## Aioros22

Cookies to whoever finds out where the artist got the kileness from.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Jessie Quick?


I wish....

----------


## dietrich

> Honestly, I appreciate artists who just _know_ how to draw a good Nightwing.


Yep

10 characters

----------


## Confuzzled

> Cookies to whoever finds out where the artist got the likeness from.


It's probably multiple people. Though the eyebrows, lips and "puppy eyes" (different color notwithstanding) resemble this Indian actor

----------


## Restingvoice

Tony Daniel posted this on Twitter 
DfbX-qIXcAEuUue.jpg
He said it's from Batman #55 so it looks like the end of the DickBats story arc. I don't know what's happening but it looks like a classic Dick teasing that Bruce refuses to engage. ^^

----------


## oasis1313

> Tony Daniel posted this on Twitter 
> DfbX-qIXcAEuUue.jpg
> He said it's from Batman #55 so it looks like the end of the DickBats story arc. I don't know what's happening but it looks like a classic Dick teasing that Bruce refuses to engage. ^^


It looks like it might be the beginning of another twenty years' exile for Dick.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Tony Daniel posted this on Twitter 
> DfbX-qIXcAEuUue.jpg
> He said it's from Batman #55 so it looks like the end of the DickBats story arc. I don't know what's happening but it looks like a classic Dick teasing that Bruce refuses to engage. ^^


yeah...always love the small moments between them :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

> yeah...always love the small moments between them


Yeah, they're small enough to be microscopic.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah, they're small enough to be microscopic.


What is your problem?

----------


## TheCape

> What is your problem?


He's overdramatic.

----------


## oasis1313

It's called CYNICISM.  Comes from being a Grayson fan since 1957.  Try watching your favorite character getting crapped on for that long and see how YOU feel.

----------


## Lazurus33

> It's called CYNICISM.  Comes from being a Grayson fan since 1957.  Try watching your favorite character getting crapped on for that long and see how YOU feel.


Amen, and once again Amen

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Tony Daniel posted this on Twitter 
> DfbX-qIXcAEuUue.jpg
> He said it's from Batman #55 so it looks like the end of the DickBats story arc. I don't know what's happening but it looks like a classic Dick teasing that Bruce refuses to engage. ^^


This looks like a shot from a romantic movie right before the characters kiss.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's called CYNICISM.  Comes from being a Grayson fan since 1957.  Try watching your favorite character getting crapped on for that long and see how YOU feel.


Then go crap on DC and the writers! Not the fans!

----------


## Drako

Dick it's on the cover of the new Crisis by Tom King.



https://www.newsarama.com/40354-dc-s...king-mann.html

Since this is King and he seems to be putting Nightwing in his work a lot, he might have a part on this. Or not. Probably not.

Also, Dick and Kory together in this is weird since this happened today.

----------


## Miles To Go

> Also, Dick and Kory together in this is weird since this happened today.


Did'nt one of the solicits for June indicate Dick and Babs would have another falling out?

----------


## TheCape

> Dick it's on the cover of the new Crisis by Tom King.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40354-dc-s...king-mann.html
> 
> Since this is King and he seems to be putting Nightwing in his work a lot, he might have a part on this. Or not. Probably not.
> 
> Also, Dick and Kory together in this is weird since this happened today.


Dick hugging Starfire... i dig that  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Aioros22

Since when is Dick taller - nevermind much - than Kory?

----------


## Ascended

> Since when is Dick taller - nevermind much - than Kory?


I *knew* something looked wrong there! And it wasn't just Dick's cheesy five o'clock shadow, either.  :Smile:  

Maybe Kori is sitting down?

Not sure what to think of this yet. Could be amazing. Could be terrible. I'm inclined to trust King a fair amount though, his weakest work is Batman and I still enjoy that.

----------


## Anthony Shaw

> Since when is Dick taller - nevermind much - than Kory?


I have not followed those two in a long while, but I wondered that, myself.

I always preferred Kory over Babs.

----------


## yohyoi

> I have not followed those two in a long while, but I wondered that, myself.
> 
> I always preferred Kory over Babs.


Me too. I like Kory more than Babs. Like a lot more. This gives me hope.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Given that King is a DickBabs shipper I don't think the DickKory relationship would end well...
But hopefully it will be a great story like Grayson：future ends or the one-issue story about Vision and Scarlet Witch in Vision. King is the best when he writes love tragedies.

----------


## WonderNight

hey guys, after the titans special is dick apart of the league now or not?

----------


## Godlike13

His team is sanctioned by the League, whatever that means, but Batman also appointed a chaperone to watch him. Who has basically done and accomplished nothing to date. So the whole thing is undercut and rather embarrassing.

----------


## pandesal

> Wooh... DC won't stop giving us Dick shirtless scene. I'm out of breath. Have mercy.






> The difference in the art here is cracking me up.


The art is so different & yet I think Dick looks hot in both.

----------


## Jabare

yeah bare Dick is too much for the ladies to handle sometimes. Topless Dick needs to be used in moderation.



time to bring back a classic enjoy young people who have never seen it:

----------


## Miles To Go

> time to bring back a classic enjoy young people who have never seen it:


I remember buying a DVD with this on it (which was kind of scumy of the guy selling it as fanfilms are meant to be non-profit)

Selina was played by Diamond Dallas Paige's ex in this film :Smile:

----------


## Black_Adam

What do you guys think of the current status quo for Dick and where would you like to see him head?

I'm not very excited for the new Titans team, I'm actually a bit disappointed he didn't make the cut for any of the Justice League teams in No Justice or subsequent new JL books when even Damian did and it seems like such a natural progression for Dick to finally become a full member of the league.

Another idea I saw suggested was him leading a new team of Outsiders, this was prior to the apparent Black Lightning led group we are going to get, but I wouldn't be opposed to that either.

----------


## Pohzee

His solo is lame and written by Percy. Titans finally has a direction and a semi-interesting roster, but its still stuck with the writer that dragged it through mediocrity in the first place. I'll give it a shot but I'm not optimistic.

The only thing I'm looking forward to for Dick is his upcoming stint as Batman in Batman and hoping for a small role or even just a few lines of dialogue in Heroes in Crisis.

----------


## WonderNight

Dick's status quo SUCKS!!! Bludhavens back to gritty Gotham 2.0, dickxbabs will they won't they is heavy(and it will be won't), Cant get out of the BAT shadow with BATgirl as your lead supporting character for a long run especially when your own supporting cast is not there yet, he's to street level so his reach is so limited that there's no reason for him or other heroes (not named bat family) to guest star in his or there's books. It sucks.

This status quo would be fine if this was dick just starting out as nightwing and it was still 1995. But a dick that's post Dickbat/Grayson in 2018 should be beyond this.

Nightwing right now should be a full on League member, Globetrotting badass JL infiltrator of spy and crime organizations, his own man that sits at the table with the DCU premier ADULT heroes and should be really close to all 3 trinity members. guest star JL member books. have a role in events and not put tubes or tide to chairs. Be on a team with ADULT not KIDS. Have a new fresh serious love interests who's not from his robin or titans days, then chill in his alantic city bludhaven for some downtime in between Globetrotting missions.

And mostly stop being treated like he's still a sidekick and not his own man! I shouldn't have look at dick and as an Adult and say the only thing thats different from when he was a Kid sidekick to now is that he's taller and has blue his costume. :Mad:

----------


## BloodOps

yeah he's in a disappointing spot right now.

Abnett's treatment of Dick in Titans has been embarrassing, he should be trusted by all and one of the greatest heroes, instead he is still treated like a sidekick and during the big event of No Justice was thrown into a tube by Brainiac. Now he League doesn't even trust him and have assigned a "babysitter" to his team in Justice League. 

His solo was great with Seeley and besides the one shot with him rescuing Damian in Japan, his solo has been meh at best since his departure.

Not liking the direction his character is going right now. Abnett needs to go on Titans too, just please stop butchering this team.

----------


## Slim Shady

Haven't kept up with him in awhile but I enjoyed the last 2 issues under the new writer. Apparently he's about to be Batman again for a few issues, that's not too shabby. I can't speak on the Titans stuff haven't read that yet.

----------


## oasis1313

> His team is sanctioned by the League, whatever that means, but Batman also appointed a chaperone to watch him. Who has basically done and accomplished nothing to date. So the whole thing is undercut and rather embarrassing.


I thought Dick WAS the chaperone.  As for that cover, at least Dick was on it, even if waaaaaaaayyyyyy back behind more important characters like Booster Gold.  Maybe Dick is hugging Kory in that pic because the bad guy chopped her knees off.  Or, on the other hand, maybe he was hugging her instead of Barbara because Kory has never had the best control over her emotions, whatever is going on in this latest Crisis has upset her, and she turned to the most comforting guy she knows.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> I thought Dick WAS the chaperone.  As for that cover, at least Dick was on it, even if waaaaaaaayyyyyy back behind more important characters like Booster Gold.  Maybe Dick is hugging Kory in that pic because the bad guy chopped her knees off.  Or, on the other hand, maybe he was hugging her instead of Barbara because Kory has never had the best control over her emotions, whatever is going on in this latest Crisis has upset her, and she turned to the most comforting guy she knows.


Hes hugging Kory because the artist wanted to draw it lol.

----------


## bearman

Agreed... Dick should be the JLA’s inside man. 
Another ridiculous, undercutting concept.
I take it Dick and Donna’s own excellent League is no longer in continuity?

----------


## Godlike13

I'd be up for Dick on a JL Redacted. A spy team spin off. But other then that, i don't really see any opportunity with Dick on the JL proper. I still think he should be trying to build his Titans to be a competitive alternative super team to the JL. Though of course Titans is dog poop, and Abnett's has been flat out terrible for the Titans and Dick especially, that right now he'd be better off with no team then on the Titans. Which is just sad...

----------


## Ascended

Honestly, I think the Titans brand has too much stink on it now to become anything close to a League alternative. Too many fans within the community have come to expect nothing but average (at best) quality from the name and far too many assume it won't even reach "average" levels. We love what the Titans used to be, and we love what the Titans could, in theory, become again, but no one really loves what they are now. 

If Nightwing is going to build a team that can truly compete with the League, either in sales or in-universe, it can't be the Titans right now. Much like Hawkman in the 90's, the Titans brand has build a negative reputation and should probably be put on the shelf for a few years until the stank wears off. 

Give Dick a new team, with either a new, original name or a name that doesn't immediately make fans cringe and wonder how bad it'll get this time.

----------


## Godlike13

Save for Suicide Squad, the TT/Titans are the only other DC super team that even really has a brand. They can't just put on the self when at the same time they are making TV shows with it.

----------


## Moonwix

DC can't put the Titans away. As much as, fans here would like to believe,  the brand is popular outside the realm of the comic books and thriving.  It's doing really well. The only problem with the brand is only in comics. This is because, they probably have very bad editors,  who doesn't give a damn about the brand.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I think retiring the Titans brand for a few years until a legitimately good new proposal comes along is a sound idea.

Regardless of how strong it is in outside media, that's not going to translate to comic sales. Wonder Woman and Aquaman are not gonna get much (if any) sales boost when their new movies come out, the Titans will be no different.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans sales arent even bad though.

----------


## TheCape

I said it in another thread already, but Titans is basically the X-Men Gold of DC  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

The titans will never be alternative to the league, because Dc sells the league on being the big guns, the premier team with the premier heroes, there the major leagues the titans are the juniors. The titans only work as teens and the youngest generation.

----------


## oasis1313

The Legion of Superheroes used to have a subgroup of members who formed its Espionage Squad.  I think a Justice League Espionage Squad could be cool, especially if Dick led it.  We could have Grayson and Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

> The titans will never be alternative to the league, because Dc sells the league on being the big guns, the premier team with the premier heroes, there the major leagues the titans are the juniors. The titans only work as teens and the youngest generation.


Of course the JL is DC's top team and that isn't gonna change, but their mentality should still be for them to be trying to be an alternative to the league. They should be wanting, and hungry, to build their own brand. Be that young team of hot shots that want to make an impact and challenged for the championship. Not be future JL, or their farm team.

----------


## Ascended

> DC can't put the Titans away. As much as, fans here would like to believe,  the brand is popular outside the realm of the comic books and thriving.  It's doing really well. The only problem with the brand is only in comics. This is because, they probably have very bad editors,  who doesn't give a damn about the brand.


I'm not talking about outside media. DC only has so much say in that in the first place. Let them make the live action show and the cartoon and whatever else. They absolutely should. I hope I enjoy it! But none of that impacts print. Larger media has been shown to not increase floppy sales by any real degree (yes, there is an exception or two). So success out there doesn't do the book much good. Let it rest for a couple years, find a viable creative team and direction and purpose and roster (whatever that ends up looking like, it'll all be down to execution), and then bring it back. It's not really even that big a deal. It's been done with this franchise in the past. It's done with plenty of titles. 




> Titans sales arent even bad though.


But they aren't that great either, correct? I haven't looked at the sales data in quite a while, I honestly don't know where the book is at these days. If the sales are good, then......fine, the smart business says don't fix what isn't broken. But if the book is only churning out mid-level sales? The IP can do better than that, and maybe a break and reset isn't the worst idea.

----------


## Assam

> But they aren't that great either, correct? I haven't looked at the sales data in quite a while, I honestly don't know where the book is at these days. If the sales are good, then......fine, the smart business says don't fix what isn't broken. But if the book is only churning out mid-level sales? The IP can do better than that, and maybe a break and reset isn't the worst idea.


It varies, but it's generally the  10th or 1tth best selling ongoing they've got, only beaten out regularly by the four Batman and Superman books, Justice League, Flash, Wonder Woman, Harley and Supergirl.

----------


## Se7en

Going from Grayson to Nightwing was always going to be a step down, the identity is cursed with regression and forever being in the shadow of the bat.

At this point only hope is another new identity/direction.

----------


## Godlike13

Creatively maybe, but that’s not inherently due to Nightwing, but beyond that it wasn’t really a regression. He kept Seeley, and was actually being published more then he was. It wasn’t like when he went from Batman to Nightwing. The stuff with Raptor was of Grayson quality even IMO.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah thee nightwing id is like that wrestler who has the fanbase, popularity and skills to be a main event world camp but company just wants him to stay a midcarder so he can build up lesser characters and not step on the toes of there bigger characters.

Nightwing needs to build his own corner and mythos, so DC/WB/ATT would want to invest in him and not just be batmans no.1 sidekick/sub. 

Hell just look at the DCEU, they would rather reboot with a young batman and completely break there canon then go with bringing in nightwing. because in there eyes there is nothing to nightwing on his own and he's just a glorified wingman/sidekick.

until DC/WB wants more out of the nightwing id other than Junior league batman, He will alway be in there eyes just batman little helper.

----------


## Badou

> Of course the JL is DC's top team and that isn't gonna change, but their mentality should still be for them to be trying to be an alternative to the league. They should be wanting, and hungry, to build their own brand. Be that young team of hot shots that want to make an impact and challenged for the championship. Not be future JL, or their farm team.


The problem is that the Titans will forever be that young team. They will always be made up of younger characters or "next generation" characters and that will forever position them as being lesser than the league regardless. The best championship they can challenge for is the junior varsity title because the JL are over competing in the varsity league. This becomes more and more of a problem the older characters like Dick get because you realize the limitations the Titans brand has when it comes to using adult heroes. If Dick was still a teen and part of the youngest DC generation this wouldn't be a problem, but because the Titans as a brand is rooted in "younger generation" heroes like Dick will never be looked at as first line heroes in big stories or events. He is stuck behind league heroes where he constantly gets trapped in stories like he is in now. 

The idea that a Booster Gold or a Black Lightning are ever going to join the Titans is never happening. The team will forever be locked into characters that were already Titans or are younger generations of other heroes while first gen or equivalent heroes will always step over the Titans to interact with the League and join that team.

----------


## phantom1592

I wish they would just embrace the Superfriends idea that I grew up with. There's no reason that Batman AND Robin couldn't have been founding members of the League... or even for Robin to be a member after founding. As a kid the idea that Robin was a JLA member was just cemented because Batman and Robin were always partners and a solid team. 

It would be a lot easier for Dick to get some more respect if he was a founding member who went off to start a team of his own with the titans and to get folded back in now that way. 

Like people have been saying, The four pillars of the DC universe known throughout the world are Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman and Robin.


I mean, they keep rebooting the universe and trying to retcon the membership ANYWAY... hopefully next time they'll put Robin in there.

----------


## Godlike13

The Titans don’t have to actually be better then the JL, just cooler. They should be trying to drop the junior varsity perception, regardless if the JL is the top team, instead of embracing it like the current series is. The people in charge of the Titans comics just don’t want to put any effort behind it for some reason, and are content with Abnett just filling page space. Even though they are investing all this money to produce a TV show. Something I quite frankly just do not understand. 

Regardless the JL is not going to do a damn thing for Dick. There is far more opportunity for Dick with the Titans then there is with the JL. As garbage as the current series is, and as much as Dick would be better off away from Abnett who is purposely trying to sabotage his character. The Titans brand is still one of DC’s most successful team brands, and Dick being the face of that brand will lead to more opportunity then a fleeting stint on the JL is going to.

----------


## Vinsanity

> The Titans don’t have to actually be better then the JL, just cooler..


IT could be. It isn't.

Honestly I'm on the boat of Dick Grayson should be a solo hero now.

----------


## Aahz

> I wish they would just embrace the Superfriends idea that I grew up with. There's no reason that Batman AND Robin couldn't have been founding members of the League... or even for Robin to be a member after founding. As a kid the idea that Robin was a JLA member was just cemented because Batman and Robin were always partners and a solid team. 
> 
> It would be a lot easier for Dick to get some more respect if he was a founding member who went off to start a team of his own with the titans and to get folded back in now that way. 
> 
> Like people have been saying, The four pillars of the DC universe known throughout the world are Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman and Robin.
> 
> 
> I mean, they keep rebooting the universe and trying to retcon the membership ANYWAY... hopefully next time they'll put Robin in there.


Retcon like that don't really work, simply becasue we have at this point 50 something years of Justice League stories without Robin being a member. I mean the are trying that with Cyborg for Years and across all the Media, and it didn't really worked out.

I think in general that you can't really make a team, that is equal of the JLA in the current version with all the A-listers on the team. That could only work JL had roaster like in the Detroid or JLI era, and I don't think that DC will do something like that anytime soon.

I think the only real alternative to Titans for Dick could be the JSA, if they can bring it back in for similar to pre flashpoint. The "Spin off" Justice League Teams have (with the exception of Justice League Dark), never really been successful in recent years, and most of the other teams are to obscure.

----------


## Black_Adam

> This status quo would be fine if this was dick just starting out as nightwing and it was still 1995. But a dick that's post Dickbat/Grayson in 2018 should be beyond this.
> 
> Nightwing right now should be a full on League member, Globetrotting badass JL infiltrator of spy and crime organizations, his own man that sits at the table with the DCU premier ADULT heroes and should be really close to all 3 trinity members. guest star JL member books. have a role in events and not put tubes or tide to chairs. Be on a team with ADULT not KIDS. Have a new fresh serious love interests who's not from his robin or titans days, then chill in his alantic city bludhaven for some downtime in between Globetrotting missions.
> 
> And mostly stop being treated like he's still a sidekick and not his own man! I shouldn't have look at dick and as an Adult and say the only thing thats different from when he was a Kid sidekick to now is that he's taller and has blue his costume.


I couldn't agree more, we have watched him grow up in front of our eyes: from boy wonder, to going out on his own as Nightwing to coming full cirlce and donning the mantle of Batman himself with his own Robin. The next natural step for Dick is full-time Justice League membership and I would actually take it a step further and have Dick as the main Batfamily rep on the Justice League, while Batman takes a backseat to focus on crime in Gotham. But Bruce would still answer the league's call when needed for crisis level events, kinda like how he semi-retired in the JL cartoon.

And yeah DC have failed to build a solid supporting cast/rogue's gallery around Dick as well, he has no iconic villains. Raptor is dead, William Cobb/Talon? Blockbuster? Or perhaps repurpose Hush as a adversary for Dick, since he was introduced DC have struggled to find anything to do for Hush, I liked the angle in Nightwing vs Hush that Tommy was jealous of how Dick had always been the closest to Bruce.

And is it me or is it a huge slap in the face to have Clark as the best man for the wedding over Dick?

----------


## Restingvoice

I wish I can say something, but I know where DC stands, I know where readers and reviewers stand, I already did my part by not supporting any titles, and I also feel continue complaining is just useless. I can't even protest to DC because the problem is fundamental. That they want to keep the League generation as long lasting as possible meaning everything else will be automatically pushed aside. 

I just hope there are more people who realize how awful the situation, actually stop buying instead of collecting for the sake of whatever, so DC gets the message and the whole line can slowly die, or get better.

----------


## adrikito

BIG CBR MISTAKE:

https://www.cbr.com/deathstroke-vs-b...on-mastermind/

According CBR is Dick Grayson(not Tim Drake) the mastermind of deathstroke current events..  :Mad:

----------


## Pohzee

> BIG MISTAKE
> 
> ...


 Put spoilers on that shiz yo. 

But also what? I’m typically an advocate of writers taking liberties with characters for the sake of interesting stories, but this is just wrong in every way. I’m hoping that this is just an assumption made on the article writers behalf. Otherwise, I’d like a good in-story explanation

----------


## Restingvoice

Does the book even say if it's Dick or Tim? Wasn't the Deathstroke/Damian thread concluded it was Tim? 

So did the book ever said it or not? If it's not, then CBR is just jumping the gun again.

----------


## adrikito

> Does the book even say if it's Dick or Tim? Wasn't the Deathstroke/Damian thread concluded it was Tim? 
> 
> So did the book ever said it or not? If it's not, then CBR is just jumping the gun again.


I saw in DC wiki and comicvine and in both places I saw Tim.

----------


## Moonwix

What I reaĺly dislike are stories that insults the audience intelligence. This is on the subject of the titans  and Dick's current status quo.

I did finally read the Titans special today, and i would say it was ok, has narrative goes only the very end ruined it. The part that batman sends ms martian to chaperone the team. That fact it was Batman was what made the concept stupid. Batman allows his actual underage kid Damian, to run around the DCU unsupervised with his 10 yrs old friend Jon but thinks Dick a young adult in his mid twenties needs supervision. 

This indeed insults the audiences intelligence, it just as dumb as Nightwing 'a guy in his twenties who worked in a high tech spy agency, calling Barbara with a cord phone in 2018. That alone irritated me about his current series more than anything. 
It is this dumb ideas that ruin these books, I would be fine with the titans been the underdogs the justice league,  if we are not getting this stupid idea that undermine the characters.

To me Nightwing is the problem with the titan books, it looks like the writer doesn't want to write him because of his solo which is bad. It pisses me off as a Nightwing fan who hates the direction of this solo series. 
I would like to read about Dick under a different direction, with actually friendships, love interest,  living a more larger life like he was in grayson. Than been stalk with the same old boring bludhaven and Barbara in his solo that goes nowhere.

The fact, that since rebirth he made no accomplishment  or development pisses me off. The writer spent all those pages developing characters that are no longer part of the team. Dick has no life on the titans and has a lead on this franchise  that is a problem.

And speaking,  of the state of Nigtwing solo series. Why is it that DC is so hell bent on giving every batman sidekick a solo series, when batman was never a solo act himself? I have noticed they continue to struggle to write meaning ful stories with all of them (Nightwing, batgirl, batwoman etc), for some reason they have to be the lone ranger in their books. Batman was never that, it was always a duo partnership with Dick and the others. 

DC struggles to find stable supporting characters for Nightwing, batgirl books when, thaty already have that in Tim, Stephanie, Luke fox, Cass etc, it's a crime that Tim is going into limbo, when he could be in nightwing. But DC is ok to shoving all this characters into one book Tec.

My point, is that I don't think the problem with nightwing will ever be resolved,  because the concept is flawed. DC made the mistake at the start 22 years ago when they decided to write nightwing a derivative of batman as a marvel character. 
Batman was never a lone ranger like daredevil or Spiderman, he was a guy who worked better in a duo partnership.  It is the same thing Nightwing needs to better his solo series. The lone ranger act may work in a mini but never long term. DC making Jason's series, Redhood and _____, was the best idea. I believe it would benefit Jason long term, except  if DC ruins it all by giving him a solo series.

DC needs to drop Nightwing as a solo and make it duo solo, Nightwing  and____, series. I know I would enjoy a book like that.

----------


## Pohzee

Thank God that despite an underwhelming solo series and an outright poor team series, we still have things to look forward for for Dick.



Between the DickBats arc with Lee Weeks and all of the Nightwing art we have seen from Daniels on Twitter, I think we can look forward to seeing a lot more of Dick in Batman. And to be honest, between King’s solid work with Dick as Grayson, his appreciation, knowledge, and experience with the character; and King’s high profile status, I will take King writing Dick in any capacity over any other appearance.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I saw in DC wiki and comicvine and in both places I saw Tim.


Wiki and Vine are fan created content, they can include fan interpretation. What is written in the book?

----------


## Godlike13

> Wiki and Vine are fan created content, they can include fan interpretation. What is written in the book?


So is the article.

----------


## Ascended

> It varies, but it's generally the  10th or 1tth best selling ongoing they've got, only beaten out regularly by the four Batman and Superman books, Justice League, Flash, Wonder Woman, Harley and Supergirl.


And they run, what, around 45-50 books a month?

Ah crap, that's not terrible at all. Okay, I suppose the market has spoken and the current Titans title isn't broken. At least from a business perspective. I still think it's a terrible book (from what I've seen) and it isn't living up to the property's potential, but it seems as though we here are in the minority. Alas.

It outsells Nightwing? Really? I mean, I know Dick hasn't always had the best runs, but even at its worst it seems better than Abnett's Titans. And I like Abnett as a writer. Just not on this particular book. 

Ah hell, it's probably DC editorial forcing the same old Fab5/NTT garbage because it sold well thirty years ago. Maybe this new roster and direction will allow Abnett to write a better book.....when it comes out, someone tell me if it's an improvement, okay?  :Smile:

----------


## Godlike13

Yes and no. It ranks higher, not by that much, but Nightwing sells twice a month. But ya, its not like the market is sick of the Titans brand or something.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So is the article.


I know. That's why I asked for the book. The exact quote, no assumption.

----------


## Godlike13

The book hasn't reveled who the Robin is.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The book hasn't reveled who the Robin is.


Well, there you go. Everyone's just jumping the gun.

----------


## L.H.

> Well, there you go. Everyone's just jumping the gun.


Well, in the book "Robin" said that he lost the costume because of Damian, and that he wanted to check the DNA test to know the truth about his father. The only one Robin who made both (losing the costume and checking the DNA test) was Tim, so it's not just jumping the gun

----------


## Ascended

> Yes and no. It ranks higher, not by that much, but Nightwing sells twice a month. But ya, its not like the market is sick of the Titans brand or something.


I can't imagine the community buying that book and thinking it was quality though.

----------


## Mataza

Titans isnt crap. It just isnt very good. But if you like the characters its perfectly readable.

----------


## Ascended

> Titans isnt crap. It just isnt very good. But if you like the characters its perfectly readable.


Well, as I've said I only read the first trade. But people say the book went downhill after that. If that's true.....man, I love most of those characters but I really don't want to read a title that's of lower quality than the Abracadabra story. That's about the lowest I'll go, quality-wise, before dropping a book.

Then again, I'm one of those fans who is beyond tired of seeing the Fab5 and NTT cycle through the same stories and reunions, so it's not a book for me anyway. I'd read it if it was well done, but an average comic about these guys doing the same crap they've been doing since they were kids? It'd be a hard sell.

----------


## Mataza

I think the reason the entire rebirth is a bit grating is that almost everyone outside of the JL is being depicted as inexperienced. And thats because they are in this continuity, but it really clashes with everyones expectations.

As for speedsters being writen poorly, that just comes with the territory, these guys get downplayed constantly and in the worst ways to make the story happen.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans is even harder to read if you like the characters. It purposely set out to dissect and undermine them, and now it’s throwing the old roster under the bus over the writers own poor and directionless writing of them. Which I wasn’t even a fan of the old roster but that’s just laughable.
 Still the brand is recognizable and has a following regardless. And quite frankly what other choice do fans of those characters have. I’m sure the Rebirth mystery hook also helped, even though in the end it was just a ploy.

----------


## WonderNight

It's not just the writer that's directionless for titans, But all of DC that has no direction the titans. The problem is DC does not have the balls to let nightwing and his generation grow up and be with the adults like they been doing with cyborg and now starfire, and stop making nightwing like he's still robin and make room for the new generations of titans. Man the titans are a joke a nostalgic team of adults who can't grow up and leave high school. Also most of the titans outside media has him as robin by the way.

Fans know also. Go to the DC boards look what happens when you ask them about a adult character they like who being a titan, They'll say NO it's a demotion. They would rather there favorite characters like vixen, zatanna and black lightening be in limbo and be on the Leagues backup than be on the titans lmfao!

DC will let black lightning and batman be on outsiders(the lesser brand) but not the titans. Why? becausethe titans are the J.V kids table team.

----------


## oasis1313

There really isn't a spot anymore because Damian's Titans are the Junior Justice League and the League is--well--the League.  Maybe call the Fab 5 something like the Tween Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori.../18/dcsept.htm
Link shamelessly stolen from The Red Hood Appreciation Thread

There are a lot of things to look forward to for Dick in September!

BATMAN #54

Written by Tom King, art and cover by Matt Wagner, variant cover by Francesco Mattina.




> Dick Grayson -- the original Robin -- gets to spend some quality time fighting crime with his mentor for the first time since Batman popped the question to Catwoman. It's a walk down memory lane as Bruce Wayne helps Dick get over the loss of his high-flying acrobat parents, which in turn led to his crime-fighting career.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Sept. 5.






> BATMAN #55 
> 
> Written by Tom King, art and cover by Tony S. Daniel, variant cover by Francesco Mattina.
> 
> The KGBeast lives! The Russian super-assassin is back -- but under whose orders? Does he have a specific mission, or is this simply some leftover Cold War mayhem? Nyet, comrade -- it has to do with Bruce Wayne's recent court case involving Mr. Freeze. Something is rotten in Gotham, and you can still smell it, even if it's on ice!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Sept. 19.






> NIGHTWING #48 
> 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Amancay Nahuelpan, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by John Romita Jr. and Danny Miki.
> 
> Guest-starring the Silencer! Dick Grayson is forced to participate in the world's greatest motorcycle race, a three-day affair hosted on a remote island and populated by the greatest riders on the planet. Nightwing reluctantly complies, but only to save the life of an old friend. That brings him into competition with the Silencer, who's also racing to save a friend. Only one rider can win...so who's gonna leg this one out? That's if they survive the onslaught of super-criminals in the race as well.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Sept. 5.





> NIGHTWING #49
> 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Amancay Nahuelpan, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by John Romita Jr. and Danny Miki.
> 
> What happens when the race is no longer against each other, but against Leviathan itself? As the head of the snake reappears, and as our heroes are allied against a common enemy, the bike race changes gears and the prize comes into focus -- a chance for the winner to sit in the Mobius chair and ask one question.
> 
> 48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Sept. 19.






> TITANS #25 
> 
> Written by Dan Abnett, art and cover by Brandon Peterson, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.
> 
> The Titans split into three separate squads to combat the growing Source Wall Event threat in this anniversary issue! As Raven, Steel and Beast Boy contain an alien-robot outbreak, and Donna Troy tracks down the Blood Cult, who claim to have knowledge of why the Source Wall cracked, Nightwing and Miss Martian are fighting each other while also fighting for survival against a new metahuman threat with a penchant for creating pocket dimensions. Can Dick and M'gann put aside their differences, or will her terrible secret derail the whole thing before they resolve anything?
> 
> 48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Sept. 12.





> TITANS #26
> 
> Written by Dan Abnett, art by Brent Peeples and Matt Santorelli, cover by Brandon Peterson, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.
> 
> Spinning out of events in issue #25, Donna is on the trail of the newly revitalized Blood Cult, whose evil experiments have transformed an entire town into bloodthirsty zombies! Plus, Miss Martian must wrestle with her own inner demons before she completely loses control!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Sept. 26


-It’s awesome to see all the love Dick is getting from King in Batman from the DickBats Court Case, to the reminiscent one-shot, and the KGB arc from what we’ve seen on Daniel’s Twitter.
-I hope Wagner can draw Dick’s classic Robin suit in the flashbacks. Given his work with The Mad Monk and the Monster Men, I tend to think classic costumes are more his style.
-Interesting to see King using KGB as a villain in an arc with Dick in it considering he was going to originally try to position him as a Dick villain in Grayson.
-Cool to see Leviathan pop up in Nightwing even if everything else (Silencer, Percy, motorcycle race) sounds a bit silly.
-Titans... IDK I’m still going to try to give it a chance.

----------


## Moonwix

I am only interested on Dick playing batman again, so I'll get the batman books. I have lost interest in the direction of the other two books.

The whole thing with ms Martian and Dick would have been  funny if the book was 'teen titans go', then again, it probably would still be annoying.

----------


## Red obin

Wait Titans and Nightwing double shipping?!

and extra sized anniversary titans #25, but also double sized nightwing #49 for no reason... strange.

----------


## Rac7d*

are we back to twice a month?

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Finally a breath of fresh air outside of Bludhaven！I definitely will get the Nightwing books. BATMAN #54 looks promising，too. Hope it will be as good as Grayson：Future's end.
Are we really back to double-shipping？ :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

Wait are we double Nightwing again?

----------


## BloodOps

looks like were double Nightwing again

hopefully Percy is doing a good job

----------


## Badou

Strange his series is going bimonthly again. Not sure why it would be, especially with one of the issues being double sized too. Weird.

----------


## Godlike13

That Nightwing cover is terrible, but the return of the double ship is cool.

----------


## oasis1313

> are we back to twice a month?


I really want one of these.  Just got my Ikemon Nightwing statue, too.  For the Grayson Gallery.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, thats a lovely statue.

----------


## Ascended

Man, those Nightwing solicits have my complete attention. This is *exactly* the kind of stuff I've wanted to see out of Nightwing. A death race? Mobius chair? Leviathan? Hell yeah. It's like Percy was reading my posts, it's so right up my alley. 

I hope the issues actually live up to these descriptions. I liked Percy's first issue of Nightwing well enough, but haven't picked up the second issue yet. What do you guys say? Is it at least the same quality as his Arrow? I liked that enough to trade wait it.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Too lazy to find it now, but Percy confirmed the book is back to being twice monthly. Which means we get #50 in October now (and #51), guessing something relatively big will happen in it.

So in July, we get Batgirl #25 and Nightwing #46. In August, we get Nightwing #47 and the Annual #1. September, #48 and an oversized #49. And over these months, from#51-55, and probably beyond, we get Dick in King's Batman. And now even Titans may be going twice monthly, but regardless it's getting an oversized #25 and #26 in September. Looks like someone just remembered the Titans series and YJO comes out this year, and that it'll do DC good to promote Dick more. Although I'm sure King is using Dick because he wants to and that Percy is only writing so much because he easily can.

----------


## Godlike13

Im glad the double ship is back, and Percy has not been bad so far. Still not sold on the art though. I just dont think it fits.

----------


## jbmasta

Plus issue 49 is 48 pages. And yeah, the art is certainly different at the moment

----------


## Moonwix

The double shipping on both nightwing and the titans on that month ,might be a DC promotion for the digital shows lunching later this year. 
This also indicates the dcu service may lunch September.

----------


## yohyoi

September Nightwing Expenses

Nightwing #48 & #49 = $8.00
Titans #25 & #26 = $9.00
Batman #54 = $4.00

More or less $21.00 just for my Nightwing comics... I might even add Batman #55 for another $4.00 depending how much Dick plays in the story. If I don't buy one console game then that is at least 2 months of Nightwing. Rest in Peace my gaming hobby. Hello more Mr. Grayson  :Wink:

----------


## yohyoi

> Too lazy to find it now, but Percy confirmed the book is back to being twice monthly. Which means we get #50 in October now (and #51), guessing something relatively big will happen in it.
> 
> So in July, we get Batgirl #25 and Nightwing #46. In August, we get Nightwing #47 and the Annual #1. September, #48 and an oversized #49. And over these months, from#51-55, and probably beyond, we get Dick in King's Batman. And now even Titans may be going twice monthly, but regardless it's getting an oversized #25 and #26 in September. Looks like someone just remembered the Titans series and YJO comes out this year, and that it'll do DC good to promote Dick more. Although I'm sure King is using Dick because he wants to and that Percy is only writing so much because he easily can.


Dick is playing a part in King's Batman, but I'm not buying until I know he will have at least 1/3 "screen time". I read King's Batman in trades. It would take a lot to move it to my pull list, especially when Justice League is also double shipping. The recent Batgirl & Nightwing team up was just okay, so I might skip Batgirl #25. Although this might change when I hear in the next months those issues were great. The $3.99 double shipping is killing my wallet faster than Steam sales.





> What do you guys say? Is it at least the same quality as his Arrow? I liked that enough to trade wait it.


If you like his previous issue, you will like his recent issue. For me, his Nightwing run is not in the same quality as his Green Arrow. But it might be too early to tell. He has only written two issues.

----------


## Ascended

> If you like his previous issue, you will like his recent issue. For me, his Nightwing run is not in the same quality as his Green Arrow. But it might be too early to tell. He has only written two issues.


Thanks. Maybe I'll pick up the second issue this weekend when I hit the LCS. I was on the fence about it, and still am, but that "death race" solicit is really making me question whether I should give it a little bit to find its stride. Percy's Arrow was fun, in a heavy-handed, beat-you-with-a-club-with-its-message kinda way. It was fitting for Ollie's character so I felt it fit, but I hope for more subtlety from his Nightwing. Maybe I'll give Percy a real shot to win me over here......

----------


## oasis1313

> September Nightwing Expenses
> 
> Nightwing #48 & #49 = $8.00
> Titans #25 & #26 = $9.00
> Batman #54 = $4.00
> 
> More or less $21.00 just for my Nightwing comics... I might even add Batman #55 for another $4.00 depending how much Dick plays in the story. If I don't buy one console game then that is at least 2 months of Nightwing. Rest in Peace my gaming hobby. Hello more Mr. Grayson


He's worth it.

----------


## Godlike13

Im happy about the double ship, but it’s a little confusing. Creatively there doesn’t really seem to be a push or something to help accommodate it.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Thanks. Maybe I'll pick up the second issue this weekend when I hit the LCS. I was on the fence about it, and still am, but that "death race" solicit is really making me question whether I should give it a little bit to find its stride. Percy's Arrow was fun, in a heavy-handed, beat-you-with-a-club-with-its-message kinda way. It was fitting for Ollie's character so I felt it fit, but I hope for more subtlety from his Nightwing. Maybe I'll give Percy a real shot to win me over here......


I thought the second issue was just as good if not better than the first. It does have some heavy hand to it though, not enough to get on my nerves or anything. Didn't read GA so not sure how it compares there for your taste. I'm going to check this whole current arc out, it seems pretty cool. Hopefully it stays good or gets even better because like you, I'm loving the sound of a motorcycle death race.

----------


## Alycat

Maybe something interesting can happen faster now.

----------


## Rac7d*

Titans must debut in september to make the most of all the dick grayson issues

----------


## K. Jones

I wonder if this is Percy's upcoming Morrison homage storyline. I mean kinda feels that way. Leviathan, Silencer (new supplementary Leviathan concept), Flamingo, a motorcycle death race. Mobius Chair stuff? Say word?

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Man, those Nightwing solicits have my complete attention. This is *exactly* the kind of stuff I've wanted to see out of Nightwing. A death race? Mobius chair? Leviathan? Hell yeah. It's like Percy was reading my posts, it's so right up my alley. 
> 
> I hope the issues actually live up to these descriptions. I liked Percy's first issue of Nightwing well enough, but haven't picked up the second issue yet. What do you guys say? Is it at least the same quality as his Arrow? I liked that enough to trade wait it.


i Liked Both issue of NW its a nice simple arc of hero vs villian. the new arc sounds all kinds of awesome.

----------


## Ascended

> Im happy about the double ship, but its a little confusing. Creatively there doesnt really seem to be a push or something to help accommodate it.


It might just be about expanding recognition? The more Nightwing on the stands more often, the more likely new people will pick up their first issue and the fanbase will grow. Percy and his art team (I forget their names) likely don't pull as high a page rate as someone like Seely or Priest or King, so DC probably has more wiggle room with their profit margin and can afford to double ship the title without any huge marketing push. 

Whatever the reason, I'm glad they're doing it. I love DC's double shipping policy. And if I do pick up the book again (which from what you folks are saying I think I might) I'll appreciate the faster schedule. Monthly titles feel so damn slow now, after all the Rebirth double shipping I got to enjoy.

Also, thanks to everyone who dropped their opinions on Percy's second issue. It's looking like a lock that I'll grab it this weekend.

----------


## Godlike13

Maybe, not not sure im convinced that producing more of the same things is gonna all of a sudden draw more attention though.

----------


## Ascended

> Maybe, not not sure im convinced that producing more of the same things is gonna all of a sudden draw more attention though.


It might not. Im just spitballing. I dont work in publishing and have never looked at any market research for stuff like this. But it works in other industries and situations, so.....maybe?

----------


## Restingvoice

Niiice concept on Batman and Nightwing. Titans are involved with the main plot of DCU which is what I want from Rebirth, but they did it with the backdrop of League vs Titans so still nah. 

How is Leviathan still around? Is this a new Leviathan?

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

Really pleased with Nightwing going back to every 2 weeks. Wasn't impressed with Titans so at least this way I still get my monthly dose of Nigthwing.

Looking forward to Bruce and Dick kicking ass together in Batman.

----------


## oasis1313

I would buy a weekly Nightwing title.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> 


I saw this pic on twitter. Loved it. :Wink:

----------


## Moonwix

> 


this is really good. I like it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Titans is even harder to read if you like the characters. It purposely set out to dissect and undermine them, and now its throwing the old roster under the bus over the writers own poor and directionless writing of them. Which I wasnt even a fan of the old roster but thats just laughable.
>  Still the brand is recognizable and has a following regardless. *And quite frankly what other choice do fans of those characters have*. Im sure the Rebirth mystery hook also helped, even though in the end it was just a ploy.


Ignore the existence of the book entirely. That's my current plan until quality improves. 

Loving the Nightwing solicits though, random motorcycle death races with evil spies and the mobius chair on the line is exactly what I want to see from him.

----------


## Ascended

> Ignore the existence of the book entirely. That's my current plan until quality improves.


That's what I do. I won't follow any character or title if the quality isn't there. Doesn't matter if it's my favorite character of all time or not; if the book isn't good, I won't buy it. 

And if more members of our community were willing to do the same, we'd see much more effort from the publishers to make their books worth reading. If you can just half-ass a title and still pull a respectable profit, there's zero incentive to improve the quality. The fans who stick with a title through thick and thin do more damage to comics than anything Didio or anyone other manager could ever hope to.




> Loving the Nightwing solicits though, random motorcycle death races with evil spies and the mobius chair on the line is exactly what I want to see from him.


I know right??!! I can't wait for this.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> That's what I do. I won't follow any character or title if the quality isn't there. Doesn't matter if it's my favorite character of all time or not; if the book isn't good, I won't buy it. 
> 
> And if more members of our community were willing to do the same, we'd see much more effort from the publishers to make their books worth reading. If you can just half-ass a title and still pull a respectable profit, there's zero incentive to improve the quality. The fans who stick with a title through thick and thin do more damage to comics than anything Didio or anyone other manager could ever hope to.


With Nightwing I don't think its a risk, but I know a lot of the issue for this type of behavior is how the message will be perceived. Nightwing sales drop? They likely readjust. 'Tec starring Tim/Cass/Steph/etc. sales drop? That could earn them a one way ticket to death/limbo. 

But yeah, Nightwing and Titans are two specific properties where I feel insulted by the level of effort that goes into those books. DC doesn't seem to be interested in advancing these characters at all and seems content to just have "a nightwing book" and "a titans book" for fans of those properties to buy. 




> I know right??!! I can't wait for this.


My only concern is whether or not Percy can stick the landing. I like his ideas but as an actual writer I'm not a huge fan, though he's not terrible or anything.

----------


## Slim Shady

> That's what I do. I won't follow any character or title if the quality isn't there. Doesn't matter if it's my favorite character of all time or not; if the book isn't good, I won't buy it. 
> 
> And if more members of our community were willing to do the same, we'd see much more effort from the publishers to make their books worth reading. If you can just half-ass a title and still pull a respectable profit, there's zero incentive to improve the quality. The fans who stick with a title through thick and thin do more damage to comics than anything Didio or anyone other manager could ever hope to.


These are facts coming out of your mouth. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much I love a character or felt the need to complete a run or anything like that, if the quality isnt there I dont buy it. I dont complain on places like this much, I complain with my wallet. You also have to learn that after the bad, the good will roll back around. Thats been a part of serialized comics since forever. A writer you dont like or a direction you dont like, just walk away. It will be worth reading again sooner or later.

Kinda off topic...anyone recommend Better Than Batman? Looks pretty good and I was thinking about checking it out.

----------


## Ascended

> These are facts coming out of your mouth. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much I love a character or felt the need to complete a run or anything like that, if the quality isnt there I dont buy it.* I dont complain on places like this much, I complain with my wallet*. You also have to learn that after the bad, the good will roll back around. Thats been a part of serialized comics since forever. A writer you dont like or a direction you dont like, just walk away. It will be worth reading again sooner or later.
> 
> Kinda off topic...anyone recommend Better Than Batman? Looks pretty good and I was thinking about checking it out.


Well....I complain here too, and with my wallet.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Better than Batman? That was the Seely run with Raptor right? I thought it was solid. Nothing mind blowing but worth a read.

----------


## Ascended

> My only concern is whether or not Percy can stick the landing. I like his ideas but as an actual writer I'm not a huge fan, though he's not terrible or anything.


I'm a little concerned about the execution too. I'm not very familiar with Percy's work beyond Arrow, and that was decent but far from exceptional. Still, a motorcycle death race with a question on the Mobius Chair, *and* Leviathan *and* the Flamingo *and* one of the awesome New Age heroes? That's worth a look.

----------


## yohyoi

I feel Percy is taking notes from the Grayson Series. The globetrotting adventures. Expanding on what Morrison created. Silencer seems to be our new Midnighter. Crazy things like the Mobius Chair. All of these shout Grayson to me. Not that I hate it. I love it. But I will miss Blud.

Hopefully, we have some Blud arcs too. I have been enjoying the whole Rebirth series. If Percy can combine the best of Grayson and Rebirth, then his run will overtake Dixon's for me.




> I'm a little concerned about the execution too. I'm not very familiar with Percy's work beyond Arrow, and that was decent but far from exceptional. Still, a motorcycle death race with a question on the Mobius Chair, *and* Leviathan *and* the Flamingo *and* one of the awesome New Age heroes? That's worth a look.


I'm somehow worried too since his past two issues were just average to good. It wasn't as spectacular as some of Seeley's run. But it might be all a set-up for future arcs. We'll know by the next months.

----------


## KC

I *really* want DC to give Dick a new sidekick. As Dick was a former sidekick, I think the idea of him being his own hero with a sidekick is such a good idea that leads to so many interesting opportunities.

----------


## WonderNight

> I *really* want DC to give Dick a new sidekick. As Dick was a former sidekick, I think the idea of him being his own hero with a sidekick is such a good idea that leads to so many interesting opportunities.


yeah dick does work better with a partner. also the more grayson the series becomes the better, im cool with sliencer being dick's new midnighter.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I would love to see Tim become a recurring character in Nightwing. Rebuilding their relationship,  I do miss that.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I wish Dick just called his friends more, he should have different people popping up each arc.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick’s friend aren’t really doing him any favors. Too often he’s used to put them over, they rarely help to put him over.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Well....I complain here too, and with my wallet. 
> 
> Better than Batman? That was the Seely run with Raptor right? I thought it was solid. Nothing mind blowing but worth a read.


Yea with Raptor and the court of owls. I think it was Seelys first rebirth arc. Im guessing thats the name, thats what the tpb is called.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I would love to see Tim become a recurring character in Nightwing. Rebuilding their relationship,  I do miss that.


tim being anyone sidekick t this point, 
just let him die

----------


## CPSparkles

> I would love to see Tim become a recurring character in Nightwing. Rebuilding their relationship,  I do miss that.


I miss their relationship too but right now I want to see Dick interact with more obscure DC characters or characters who aren't Bats or Titans.

----------


## CPSparkles

> These are facts coming out of your mouth. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much I love a character or felt the need to complete a run or anything like that, if the quality isnt there I dont buy it. I dont complain on places like this much, I complain with my wallet. You also have to learn that after the bad, the good will roll back around. Thats been a part of serialized comics since forever. A writer you dont like or a direction you dont like, just walk away. It will be worth reading again sooner or later.
> 
> Kinda off topic...anyone recommend Better Than Batman? Looks pretty good and I was thinking about checking it out.


I enjoyed it. Raptor was an engaging foil and Dick and Bruce had some nice moments in the arc. So yeah I recommend it

----------


## Ascended

> Yea with Raptor and the court of owls. I think it was Seely’s first rebirth arc. I’m guessing that’s the name, that’s what the tpb is called.


Pretty sure that's it. I enjoyed it. It didn't blow me away like Grayson did, but it was definitely decent. Probably one of the better Nightwing stories in the last couple years.

At least, one of the better ones I've read. After that arc I decided to start trade waiting and haven't gotten caught up yet.

----------


## Godlike13

Raptor was probably the best villain the character has seen in the modern age. And that includes Grayson. Even though I know not everyone cared much for Bludhaven stuff, I still think the stuff with Raptor was of Grayson quality. Even the ambiguous bombshell Seeley left with Raptor. That was bold. I really enjoyed Seeley’s work with Dick and Raptor.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Raptor was great. Easily the best villain solo-Nightwing has ever had. 

The first arc and the third arc were the best ones in the run, and even the Bludhaven stuff was better than it typically is.

----------


## Ascended

I like Raptor quite a bit. Feels like he could become a staple of the Nightwing rogues gallery (as much as Dick has one, anyway). Maybe even one of the major foes, ala Blockbuster.

----------


## oasis1313

> tim being anyone sidekick t this point, 
> just let him die


I can't stand Tim--especially anywhere around Dick or Jason--because they're always made to look dumb so he can look sooooooooooo much smarter.  Dreck needs to be killed off--for good and forever--he was supposed to replace Jason, who's come back bigger and better than he ever was.  Damian is the biological son.  Dick brought Bruce out of his darkness and continues to be the light of the DC Universe.  There is no place for Tim anymore except in Hell where he belongs.  As far as a sidekick for Dick goes, the answer is obvious:  Damian.  Nightwing and Robin are THE dynamic duo for the new millennium.  I think he could do well with Cass, too, because she needs someone caring and understanding; he'd treat her more like a daughter than Bruce ever will.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I can't stand Tim--especially anywhere around Dick or Jason--because they're always made to look dumb so he can look sooooooooooo much smarter.  Dreck needs to be killed off--for good and forever--he was supposed to replace Jason, who's come back bigger and better than he ever was.  Damian is the biological son.  Dick brought Bruce out of his darkness and continues to be the light of the DC Universe.  There is no place for Tim anymore except in Hell where he belongs.  As far as a sidekick for Dick goes, the answer is obvious:  Damian.  Nightwing and Robin are THE dynamic duo for the new millennium.  I think he could do well with Cass, too, because she needs someone caring and understanding; he'd treat her more like a daughter than Bruce ever will.


Uhh Damian is learning to work with outher outside of dick using what he learend from him
and is developing as a leader

I dont mind teamups

Stephanie would be a better choice  cass seems more devoted to Babs

----------


## KC

> tim being anyone sidekick t this point, 
> just let him die


Tim can be a recurring character in Nightwing without him being a sidekick. He can also be his own hero without him having to die.

----------


## WonderNight

The male robins needs to stay out of each other's way. Tim would just over lap with dick and doesn't being any thing for the nightwing brand to build off. Only tim gains anything from that.

I would love for it to be Stephanie, not just because she's my fav female bat character and she currently has no home or role and there's no more space for her with batman and gotham. I believe steph can do for dick what dick did for bruce. dick was a way for young males to connect to Batman and his brand more, I can see steph doing the same of dick with young females.

plus this seems to be the way YJ:O will be going with Spoiler being Nightwing's robin for the general public. so why not.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, the Robin's were never created to compliment one anther. The only ones that really do are Dick and Damian. I'd rather see Rose, or even Steph.

----------


## phantom1592

> Uhh Damian is learning to work with outher outside of dick using what he learend from him
> and is developing as a leader


Ughhh… How many robins do we need to see working in other teams and developing as a leader??? The whole point to Damian was how an obnoxious little psycho he was and how he brought something new that no Robin has before...


Let him be THAT for a couple of decades before trying to move him up.

----------


## Moonwix

I really hope the next team of writers on nightwing would give Damian a more frequent role in his series. I will definitely start buying Nightwing again. I always found the series most entertaining when Dick and Damian team up.

----------


## dietrich

The issue's of Nightwing that featured Damian were the highlight of the series for me. I like the idea of Nightwing and Robin [Damian was created for Grayson after all]

However I don't want Dick's solo to become that book. I feel like Nightwing needs to grow beyond the family. Rebuild his relationship with other heroes. I enjoyed Dick the most as a spy. I loved the Nightwing in Japan issue. I want more along those lines. Nightwing kicking serious arse in exotic locations while looking dope.

----------


## Moonwix

> The issue's of Nightwing that featured Damian were the highlight of the series for me. I like the idea of Nightwing and Robin [Damian was created for Grayson after all]
> 
> However I don't want Dick's solo to become that book. I feel like Nightwing needs to grow beyond the family. Rebuild his relationship with other heroes. I enjoyed Dick the most as a spy. I loved the Nightwing in Japan issue. I want more along those lines. Nightwing kicking serious arse in exotic locations while looking dope.


After 23+ years, I think the never ending concept of nightwing growing beyond  the family and Batman has failed. It was all smoke and mirrors. 
I think a new direction is needed desperately at this point, DC should top pretending that Nightwing is a solo character,  when clearly he is not. They should definitely team him up with Damian, it simply works.

----------


## dietrich

> After 23+ years, I think the never ending concept of nightwing growing beyond  the family and Batman has failed. It was all smoke and mirrors. 
> I think a new direction is needed desperately at this point, DC should top pretending that Nightwing is a solo character,  when clearly he is not. They should definitely team him up with Damian, it simply works.


He works with Damian, also with Tiger and Midnighter and Helena. I want Grayson back along with Nightwing and Robin.
That would be my ideal. 
2 titles. Nightwing as a spy globetrotting. The other Nightwing and sidekick Robin.

----------


## Moonwix

> He works with Damian, also with Tiger and Midnighter and Helena. I want Grayson back along with Nightwing and Robin.
> That would be my ideal. 
> 2 titles. Nightwing as a spy globetrotting. The other Nightwing and sidekick Robin.


Yes, I would like that too. I enjoyed Grayson. It's one of the reasons I'm irritated with the current Nightwing, I thought DC will continue with those supporting characters at the start of rebirth , and grow from there but no, they decided it was a good idea to throw all that development through the window And go back to square one( literally back to 1998) like what this current writer is doing.

I think a second title will sell, for fans like me who dislike the current direction on nightwing. I want that nightwing and robin series, and Nightwing as a spy series.

----------


## CPSparkles

Grayson's an Acrobat

----------


## KC

> The male robins needs to stay out of each other's way. Tim would just over lap with dick and doesn't being any thing for the nightwing brand to build off. Only tim gains anything from that.
> 
> I would love for it to be Stephanie, not just because she's my fav female bat character and she currently has no home or role and there's no more space for her with batman and gotham. I believe steph can do for dick what dick did for bruce. dick was a way for young males to connect to Batman and his brand more, I can see steph doing the same of dick with young females.
> 
> plus this seems to be the way YJ:O will be going with Spoiler being Nightwing's robin for the general public. so why not.


I disagree. These are stories being told, Nightwing's "brand" doesn't really matter if a good story is being told. And considering that Dick and Tim are brothers, I think good stories could be told about them working together.

----------


## Slim Shady

> There is no place for Tim anymore except in Hell where he belongs.


Savage  :Big Grin: 

Thanks to the ones with the Raptor arc replies. Ill be checking that out now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tim can be a recurring character in Nightwing without him being a sidekick. He can also be his own hero without him having to die.


you should let the writers know that

----------


## Rac7d*

> The issue's of Nightwing that featured Damian were the highlight of the series for me. I like the idea of Nightwing and Robin [Damian was created for Grayson after all]
> 
> However I don't want Dick's solo to become that book. I feel like Nightwing needs to grow beyond the family. Rebuild his relationship with other heroes. I enjoyed Dick the most as a spy. I loved the Nightwing in Japan issue. I want more along those lines. Nightwing kicking serious arse in exotic locations while looking dope.


a 12 issue nightwing and friends series

Nighwing s and....
Robin
flash
donna troy
tempest
Arsenal
Starfire and Batgirl
Superman
Spyral
Alfred
Deathstroke
Batman
Nightwing and Everyone

It be fun as hell
Nightwing

----------


## KC

> you should let the writers know that


I would argue that most of the writers do know this. Because both of the points I made are true when they are written correctly.

----------


## WonderNight

> Tim can be a recurring character in Nightwing without him being a sidekick. He can also be his own hero without him having to die.


If tim can be his own hero and not nightwing sidekick than why put him in the book? It does nothing for dick.

----------


## KC

> If tim can be his own hero and not nightwing sidekick than why put him in the book? It does nothing for dick.


It does do something for Dick as it gives him a great character to interact with.

----------


## L.H.

> a 12 issue nightwing and friends series
> 
> Nighwing s and....
> Robin
> flash
> donna troy
> tempest
> Arsenal
> Starfire and Batgirl
> ...


That's a good idea! I will add other 6:

Supergirl
Rose
Midnighter 
Deadman
Cass
Lobo

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's a good idea! I will add other 6:
> 
> Supergirl
> Rose
> Midnighter 
> Deadman
> Cass
> Lobo


  I agree on Midnighter
shame on me to forget him

has nightwing made contact with supergirl in the last 8 years? or lobo?
Rose could be a part of the deathstroke issue

I should proably swap the Alfred with Stephanie, I just allign cass with Babs more then dick

----------


## dietrich

I like the idea of Nightwing and Lobo
@Rac7d like a Nightwing Brave and the Bold type series? I dig it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I like the idea of Nightwing and Lobo
> @Rac7d like a Nightwing Brave and the Bold type series? I dig it.


I mean they gave Harley and Deathroke team up books

----------


## dietrich

> Yes, I would like that too. I enjoyed Grayson. It's one of the reasons I'm irritated with the current Nightwing, I thought DC will continue with those supporting characters at the start of rebirth , and grow from there but no, they decided it was a good idea to throw all that development through the window And go back to square one( literally back to 1998) like what this current writer is doing.
> 
> I think a second title will sell, for fans like me who dislike the current direction on nightwing. I want that nightwing and robin series, and Nightwing as a spy series.


A Nightwing Spy series might be a way to please fans on both sides. Not sure how that would work though since he can't go undercover dressed in spandex so bye bye finger stripes.

Not sure how they could merge both.

----------


## Rac7d*

> A Nightwing Spy series might be a way to please fans on both sides. Not sure how that would work though since he can't go undercover dressed in spandex so bye bye finger stripes.
> 
> Not sure how they could merge both.


the reason why that series was god because it had a riter with that personal experience
he is no longer writting nightwing 
so even if we did revisit that it would not feel the same , like most reboots

its an ear that ended, ppl got let it go

----------


## dietrich

> I mean they gave Harley and Deathroke team up books


That's the most annoying thing about DC for they are slacking on Nightwing. Nightwing as a brand should have the same level as the Dick Grayson character [one of DC's most beloved characters]

DC has this strategy of using Dick Grayson to elevate or smooth the path for others. It's about they put effort and focus on a strong strategy for Nightwing. Across all Media.

I mean they are working on a Nightwing movie, he's about to headline a new series and look how they are treating Nightwing in Titans.

----------


## dietrich

> the reason why that series was god because it had a riter with that personal experience
> he is no longer writting nightwing 
> so even if we did revisit that it would not feel the same , like most reboots
> 
> its an ear that ended, ppl got let it go


I wish I could let it go but I keep coming back to it. I love that series. It was refreshing, different and humorous. He was Bond and Batman but better in one sweet combo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's the most annoying thing about DC for they are slacking on Nightwing. Nightwing as a brand should have the same level as the Dick Grayson character [one of DC's most beloved characters]
> 
> DC has this strategy of using Dick Grayson to elevate or smooth the path for others. It's about they put effort and focus on a strong strategy for Nightwing. Across all Media.
> 
> I mean they are working on a Nightwing movie, he's about to headline a new series and look how they are treating Nightwing in Titans.


well nightwing and the titans are back to be bi monthly
If i dont put him on hold his first release are sold at my comic stores, he sell very well despite the lack of effort
and he has received quite a consitent stream of attention from DC, it might not be what we want but he is always around. Technially dick grayson is the star of the TTG movie in a month, comic con will debut the Titans series and hopfully that will give his movie the momentum AND CONFIDENCE DC needs to prioritze it.

Understnadly they still need to set up the gotham world, and make use of Harley sooner rather then later

----------


## dietrich

> well nightwing and the titans are back to be bi monthly
> If i dont put him on hold his first release are sold at my comic stores, he sell very well despite the lack of effort
> and he has received quite a consitent stream of attention from DC, it might not be what we want but he is always around. Technially dick grayson is the star of the TTG movie in a month, comic con will debut the Titans series and hopfully that will give his movie the momentum AND CONFIDENCE DC needs to prioritze it.
> 
> Understnadly they still need to set up the gotham world, and make use of Harley sooner rather then later


Dick Grayson is the star of TTG and Dick Grayson is one of the best known and most popular character's in comics. Dick Grayson not Nightwing. That's my gripe. I want Dick Grayson as Nightwing to enjoy the same status as Dick Grayson.

Nightwing bi monthly is great news Titans bi monthly not so much.

It frustrating as you highlighted Nightwing sells.

----------


## Ascended

> the reason why that series was god because it had a riter with that personal experience
> he is no longer writting nightwing 
> so even if we did revisit that it would not feel the same , like most reboots
> 
> its an ear that ended, ppl got let it go


I don't think we need a return to the Grayson status quo, but establishing Nightwing as the super spy of the DCU would be so friggin easy I'm not sure why they haven't done it. 

It wouldn't be the same as Grayson, but really all Grayson did was show us the path; Nightwing has yet to walk it (and likely never will, because DC can't recognize the value there) but the path is clear.

I could easily build a whole status quo for Dick in this role that would be pretty fantastic. I dunno if I have the writing chops to pull of the scripts but I could definitely plot the thing out. And if *I* could manage that, then DC is more than capable. 

If Marvel can make it work for Nick Fury, DC can make it work with Nightwing.

----------


## byrd156

> I like the idea of Nightwing and Lobo
> @Rac7d like a Nightwing Brave and the Bold type series? I dig it.


There have been so many times in this thread that this should happen. Dick relaunching the Brave and Bold series as his team up book would be so good.

----------


## L.H.

> I agree on Midnighter
> shame on me to forget him
> 
> has nightwing made contact with supergirl in the last 8 years? or lobo?
> Rose could be a part of the deathstroke issue
> 
> I should proably swap the Alfred with Stephanie, I just allign cass with Babs more then dick


Lobo was just my crazy idea  :Big Grin: . Dick and Kara didn't met, but I liked a lot their dynamic during Outsiders and Obsidian Age, so it will be gret to seem them together again.

I'm very looking forward for an issue on the Dick-Rose training, so I'd like one focused on them both.

I like Dick-Cass, my first Nightwing story was Venn Diagram and I still feel like they need more interactions. 

Steph it's a good idea, too. Perhaps a team up Dick-Steph-Cass?

----------


## oasis1313

> If tim can be his own hero and not nightwing sidekick than why put him in the book? It does nothing for dick.


All they'd do is make Dick look dumb in his own book so that Tim can shine with his exponentially higher intellect.  As for Dick--Cass--Steph, I think he'd go all DAD on them even worse than Bruce.  I think Damian as a recurring character works well.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There have been so many times in this thread that this should happen. Dick relaunching the Brave and Bold series as his team up book would be so good.


it doesnt even have to be cannon jsut a fun adventures

https://www.movienewsguide.com/taylo...ghtwing/334600


are they going to the wedding togethers?

----------


## Lazurus33

When Jim Lee (And A Hyper-Sexualized Nightwing) Invaded Batman: The Animated Series

https://www.cbr.com/jim-lee-batman-animated-series/

----------


## CPSparkles

> When Jim Lee (And A Hyper-Sexualized Nightwing) Invaded Batman: The Animated Series
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/jim-lee-batman-animated-series/


You know I've never seen BTAS. Is the series something an adult would enjoy?

----------


## CPSparkles

Dick, Tim and Damian

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

> it doesnt even have to be cannon jsut a fun adventures
> 
> https://www.movienewsguide.com/taylo...ghtwing/334600
> 
> 
> are they going to the wedding togethers?


Why is Roy wearing that hat with a suit?

----------


## jbmasta

> it doesnt even have to be cannon jsut a fun adventures
> 
> https://www.movienewsguide.com/taylo...ghtwing/334600
> 
> 
> are they going to the wedding togethers?


I'd recognise Mikel Janin art anywhere. Dick almost looks like a younger Bruce.

As for some of the names mentioned in the article, I'm not sold on Taylor Lautner. I only know him through Twilight, so I don't know if he can be quippy. Jared Padalecki and Milo Ventimiglia are too old, since Milo plays the father in This is Us and Jared has to at least be in his late 30's. He was early/mid 20's when started Supernatural, and that's just finished its 13th season. If DC is looking to get as much mileage as possible out of Nightwing, I'd be looking at someone who's 19 or 20 at the moment. Definitely performance over star name.

----------


## Aahz

> If DC is looking to get as much mileage as possible out of Nightwing, I'd be looking at someone who's 19 or 20 at the moment.


If he is part of the DCEU would have to be older (at least if Jason really was allready Robin and died).

----------


## jbmasta

> If he is part of the DCEU would have to be older (at least if Jason really was allready Robin and died).


I guess it all depends on the Batman movie. The Nightwing movie could be set earlier in the timeline, who knows? Just as long as the film doesn't do the origin story, at least as the main plot. Using the main plot to mirror the origin story might be interesting, giving Dick closure from that. If Dick is operating outside of Gotham, that could explain why Bruce doesn't call him in for BvS or Justice League, events happen too quick or Bruce doesn't think Dick needs to be involved. Perhaps Bruce doesn't want to lose anyone after Jason, and only calls in Wonder Woman before forming the League because he knows he can't do it alone. We've only got four films to work from so far, two of which feature Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> The Nightwing movie could be set earlier in the timeline, who knows?


DC would very likely have him interact with the rest of the DCEU (otherwise having a shared universe wouldn't make much sense), and since he isn't immortal like Wonder Woman, that wouldn't really work that way.

They can of course also just ignore logic, Harley Quinn's age in the DCEU makes also not a lot of sense.

----------


## jbmasta

> DC would very likely have him interact with the rest of the DCEU (otherwise having a shared universe wouldn't make much sense), and since he isn't immortal like Wonder Woman, that wouldn't really work that way.
> 
> They can of course also just ignore logic, Harley Quinn's age in the DCEU makes also not a lot of sense.


If Jason was killed by Joker, not only does that open up a possible Red Hood movie later down the track (they're doing Flashpoint after the animated films already did that), but Nightwing could be five or ten years before Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice. The obstacle is that the mid-2010's is when in the films' timeline heroes are emerging (Superman in 2013, Batman, Wonder Woman and the rest of the League later on), so that means not so much of Dick meeting other DC characters.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Zack Snyder recently hinted that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick. 
https://batman-news.com/2018/04/05/z...an-v-superman/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Snip


I wish we could see more of this, Tim and Damian being bratty at each other with Dick as the adult in the room was always fun.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Zack Snyder recently hinted that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick. 
> https://batman-news.com/2018/04/05/z...an-v-superman/


and thats why he needs to go

----------


## dietrich

> Zack Snyder recently hinted that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick. 
> https://batman-news.com/2018/04/05/z...an-v-superman/


So much wrong there. Glad the idea didn't stick and Dick's getting his own movie.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> and thats why he needs to go


Also why we needed new leadership from WB. 

If Joe Johnston tried to "show the body" for Bucky in Cap 1 Feige would have slapped the shit out of him because he's got his eye on the big picture.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> and thats why he needs to go


Indeed. My point is if it was true then Zack Snyder never planned to let the batfam（except Alfred，of course）appear in DCEU. So it is not necessary to discuss Nightwing's age with previous setting.

----------


## oasis1313

> Indeed. My point is if it was true then Zack Snyder never planned to let the batfam（except Alfred，of course）appear in DCEU. So it is not necessary to discuss Nightwing's age with previous setting.


Anybody who wants a Dead Dick is evil.  Snyder is now on my official bad list.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I blame WB for allowing someone to take over you attempt at creating a shared universe by introducing a Superman who dies in his second appearance and a Batman who is an aged veteran with no allies. They should have known Snyder wanted to make a Dark Knight Returns / Death Of Superman story and that combination is for ending a story arc rather than starting one. Imagine after Avengers Thanos just jumps in and takes the Tesseract and starts exploding Suns. Watchmen was a story adaptation so there was only one way to go. Dick hasn’t been seen in decades and TDKR DID NOT feature a Robin. Wonder Woman should be the backbone and a JSA appearance in the third movie where she is the leader not secretary is what I would like to see. 

Matt Reeves did good with Ceaser and his children along with creating complex supporting cast so i hope if his Batman is young Robin can be introduced correctly.

----------


## oasis1313

> I blame WB for allowing someone to take over you attempt at creating a shared universe by introducing a Superman who dies in his second appearance and a Batman who is an aged veteran with no allies. They should have known Snyder wanted to make a Dark Knight Returns / Death Of Superman story and that combination is for ending a story arc rather than starting one. Imagine after Avengers Thanos just jumps in and takes the Tesseract and starts exploding Suns. Watchmen was a story adaptation so there was only one way to go. Dick hasn’t been seen in decades and TDKR DID NOT feature a Robin. Wonder Woman should be the backbone and a JSA appearance in the third movie where she is the leader not secretary is what I would like to see. 
> 
> Matt Reeves did good with Ceaser and his children along with creating complex supporting cast so i hope if his Batman is young Robin can be introduced correctly.


DC still can't figure out why its movies are mostly flops.  Snyder seems to have this "dark" vision for everything and DC movies frankly aren't entertaining to watch ) with the exception of Lego Batman and possibly Wonder Woman).  Maybe making sure Snyder has a paycheck must be more important to them than making zillions with hit movies.

----------


## Restingvoice

@Benjamin_Percy
Don't tell anyone -- or @TomKingTK and I will deny it -- but something monumental happens in Batman 55 that carries over into Nightwing 50 (and beyond).

----------


## WonderNight

well they only care about the JL generation so im not surprised the dceu cut dick off.

----------


## KC

*spoilers:*
With Jon Kent rebelling against his parents by going with Mr OZ/ Jor-El in Man Of Steel #5, I think it could be interesting if Jon became Nightwing's Flamebird. Just a thought. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> @Benjamin_Percy
> Don't tell anyone -- or @TomKingTK and I will deny it -- but something monumental happens in Batman 55 that carries over into Nightwing 50 (and beyond).


If it’s a relationship with babs it’s not monumental

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I blame WB for allowing someone to take over you attempt at creating a shared universe by introducing a Superman who dies in his second appearance and a Batman who is an aged veteran with no allies. They should have known Snyder wanted to make a Dark Knight Returns / Death Of Superman story and that combination is for ending a story arc rather than starting one. Imagine after Avengers Thanos just jumps in and takes the Tesseract and starts exploding Suns. Watchmen was a story adaptation so there was only one way to go. Dick hasn’t been seen in decades and TDKR DID NOT feature a Robin. Wonder Woman should be the backbone and a JSA appearance in the third movie where she is the leader not secretary is what I would like to see. 
> 
> Matt Reeves did good with Ceaser and his children along with creating complex supporting cast so i hope if his Batman is young Robin can be introduced correctly.


Well said.

----------


## oasis1313

> If it’s a relationship with babs it’s not monumental


Well, won't he be Dickbats at the time?  Maybe Bruce and Selina decide to take an extended honeymoon, and Dick stays Batman for awhile.  Since Tim is rudderless at the moment and has watched over Bludhaven before, DC might consider making him the new Nightwing.  Just thinking worst-case scenarios.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If it’s a relationship with babs it’s not monumental


It doesn't have to be in Batman either, but that's my first though too. 

Tom King is a DickBabs shipper, Ben Percy is building it as an essential though not necessarily romantic relationship, there's that matching skull-face Batgirl and Nightwing variants, Paul Harding is making a DickBabs statue and now there's this Forbidden Planet exclusive they market as "the other Bat-Pairing"

DgswgYNXcAA2_tP.jpg

I don't wanna say anything in case it's not that, but that's a lot at the same time.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Well, won't he be Dickbats at the time?  Maybe Bruce and Selina decide to take an extended honeymoon, and Dick stays Batman for awhile.  Since Tim is rudderless at the moment and has watched over Bludhaven before, *DC might consider making him the new Nightwing*.  Just thinking worst-case scenarios.


Love Tim, absolutely would hate this.

----------


## DragonPiece

> It doesn't have to be in Batman either, but that's my first though too. 
> 
> Tom King is a DickBabs shipper, Ben Percy is building it as an essential though not necessarily romantic relationship, there's that matching skull-face Batgirl and Nightwing variants, Paul Harding is making a DickBabs statue and now there's this Forbidden Planet exclusive they market as "the other Bat-Pairing"
> 
> Attachment 67590
> 
> I don't wanna say anything in case it's not that, but that's a lot at the same time.


Good, I got kinda annoyed at Dick towards the end of Seeley's run when he kept sleeping with different girls. I'd like him to be in a single relationship for a good year or two.

----------


## RedQueen

> I don't wanna say anything in case it's not that, but that's a lot at the same time.


that's the crux for it for me. I mean I'm not a fan of how they've handled New 52 Dickbabs, but it seems there seems a lot going on. I mean I much prefer reading superhero relationships like Arthur and Mera or Barda and Scott, so if they can actually commit to the idea of Dick and Barbara I'd be game. Not a fan of a revolving love life. I mean Percy has written about 2 issues with them and I'm not against it, whilst stuff like summer of lies is annoying because it was the fiftieth fake out in a row. With the current writer, you can feel it's building toward something, I don't know what but I'm not resisting the direction.

----------


## Restingvoice

DC Universe trailer and website is out with Brenton Thwaites Robin as the face

devices.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

DgyY026U8AETeje.jpg

YOOOO LET'S GO!
Background's Photoshop AF but I don't care. I love that costume

That one's from Forbes

----------


## Godlike13

Babs is gonna pull a Rachel at Bruce's wedding.

----------


## Vic Vega

> DgyY026U8AETeje.jpg
> 
> YOOOO LET'S GO!
> Background's Photoshop AF but I don't care. I love that costume
> 
> That one's from Forbes


It looks like he's rocking Duct Tape on his left leg or something.

Other than that it looks cool.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> DgyY026U8AETeje.jpg
> 
> YOOOO LET'S GO!
> Background's Photoshop AF but I don't care. I love that costume
> 
> That one's from Forbes


Cool！Now I really am looking forward to the Nightwing costume. :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> Good, I got kinda annoyed at Dick towards the end of Seeley's run when he kept sleeping with different girls. I'd like him to be in a single relationship for a good year or two.


Didn't he only sleep with 2 girls? And the 2nd one was Huntress who he should have hooked up with in the Grayson series.

----------


## The World

Liking that suit and the beat up look in the promo.

----------


## oasis1313

> Babs is gonna pull a Rachel at Bruce's wedding.


What's that mean?  Pulling a Rachel?

----------


## WonderNight

> Didn't he only sleep with 2 girls? And the 2nd one was Huntress who he should have hooked up with in the Grayson series.


yeah both girls were is girlfriends at the time also. babs the one with like 5 or 6 boyfriends in the same time.

----------


## Godlike13

> What's that mean?  Pulling a Rachel?


She gonna be revealed to be pregnant.

----------


## oasis1313

> She gonna be revealed to be pregnant.


Oh.  At least Shawn's already done that so hopefully we won't have to go back there.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Babs is gonna pull a Rachel at Bruce's wedding.


wha does that mean

----------


## Rac7d*

> She gonna be revealed to be pregnant.


as if she would ever
watch it turn out to be batmans again

----------


## oasis1313

> as if she would ever
> watch it turn out to be batmans again


I think Selina would get pregnant before Babs.  Pretty good for a lady born in 1940!

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think Selina would get pregnant before Babs.  Pretty good for a lady born in 1940!

----------


## Restingvoice

This conversation is going the gross way and I'm purging it with a sexy Nightwing by Babs Tarr

DgW6yApUcAIXkET.jpg

----------


## RedQueen

Wouldn't "pulling a Rachel" at a wedding indicate saying the wrong name at the alter?

Anyways yes to Babs Tarr Nightwing. That wedding issue of Batgirl, while eh, had one of the best looking Dicks in a while.

----------


## Confuzzled

Lol THAT Rachel. I thought they were talking about the Anne Hathaway film _Rachel Getting Married_ where she wrecks the wedding celebrations.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yohyoi

Damn, Bruce and Babs disgust me. No wonder the best Boy Wonder moved out.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Kyle Higgins and Bruce Timm ruined all my passion towards Dickbabs.

----------


## Dzetoun

Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:

http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/

*spoilers:*
 it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The World

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


Sounds really bizarre but Im also willing to wait and actually see what happens.

----------


## dietrich

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


Oh goodie because of course that's the best way to go.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Oh goodie because of course that's the best way to go.


Yeah, I'm already not liking the sounds of this.

----------


## Jabare

>

----------


## Badou

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


Sucks they are going that route.

----------


## Jabare

is it true Dick Grayson is getting back together with Star Fire?

----------


## oasis1313

> is it true Dick Grayson is getting back together with Star Fire?


After the recent posts, all I can say is, "I WISH !!!!!!!!!"

----------


## Ascended

> is it true Dick Grayson is getting back together with Star Fire?


Where'd you hear this?

----------


## KNIGHT OF THE LAKE

> Damn, Bruce and Babs disgust me. No wonder the best Boy Wonder moved out.


I think it's because people have retroactively bought into this idea that Batgirl and Robin were essentially equals. It really wasn't like that. Babs and Bruce getting together really is no different than Bruce and Huntress hooking up, which I'm sure most people wouldn't mind. When Barbara was first introduced she was old enough to have a PH'D. So she had a doctorate 2 years before they sent Dick off to college. hoThere was even a story in the 70's where she was put on a date with Clark Kent. So Dick was around 18/19, Babs was old enough to have a doctorate and a career, Bruce was perpetually in his late 20's or early 30's. Like even if she was a genius she was far more appropriately aged to date Bruce than Dick. 

The TAS verse is different because Dick is far older in that and Barbara is presented as his equivalent. However, overall it's not the worst pairing. I think people just automatically assume Robin and Batgirl should be natural peers. They aren't. It's like if Tim was in a romance with Huntress.

----------


## Jabare

> Where'd you hear this?

----------


## Badou

Starfire is going to be off in space for the ext year or so, so they aren't getting together. He might hook back up with Babs given the recent solicits, but I don't see Dick ever dating someone that isn't under Batman editorial too.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> 


that means nothing. its just a cover. im sure the artist drew them together cause they used to be an item and because of the subject matter of the mini

----------


## Godlike13

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...

----------


## Jabare

> Starfire is going to be off in space for the ext year or so, so they aren't getting together. He might hook back up with Babs given the recent solicits, but I don't see Dick ever dating someone that isn't under Batman editorial too.


Cyborg is leading the team (or was until they had to rewrite the first two issues) he can boom tube them together in seconds. Doesn't matter how far they are away they can traverse the universe easily.

----------


## Confuzzled

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


It doesn't mention "crazy abusive Batman" at all.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It doesn't mention "crazy abusive Batman" at all.


It was implied

"He doesn’t work with Batman anymore after growing to hate him and leaving Gotham for San Francisco.

After what Batman did to him, he’s shut himself off from any relationships, absorbing himself in his work."

Although my first thought was broken hearted, but then I'm soft.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think it's because people have retroactively bought into this idea that Batgirl and Robin were essentially equals. It really wasn't like that. Babs and Bruce getting together really is no different than Bruce and Huntress hooking up, which I'm sure most people wouldn't mind. When Barbara was first introduced she was old enough to have a PH'D. So she had a doctorate 2 years before they sent Dick off to college. hoThere was even a story in the 70's where she was put on a date with Clark Kent. So Dick was around 18/19, Babs was old enough to have a doctorate and a career, Bruce was perpetually in his late 20's or early 30's. Like even if she was a genius she was far more appropriately aged to date Bruce than Dick. 
> 
> The TAS verse is different because Dick is far older in that and Barbara is presented as his equivalent. However, overall it's not the worst pairing. I think people just automatically assume Robin and Batgirl should be natural peers. They aren't. It's like if Tim was in a romance with Huntress.


Huntress is bruce's daoughter so its about the same or worse

----------


## Frontier

> Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...


I don't really see how that implies we're not getting Nightwing. 

A Dick Grayson with angst towards Batman is probably how most people envision the transition to Nightwing these days because of the DCAU.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...


But we are this fall?

----------


## Rakiduam

> Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...


Seeing they are going the Dixon rute, it may be for the best.




> Huntress is bruce's daoughter so its about the same or worse


Worse, definitely worse.

----------


## Dzetoun

> But we are this fall?


We are getting Robin with issues, hating Batman and afraid he is going to turn into Batman (to the point of hallucinating Bruce’s shadow in his own). That lays the groundwork for a transition to Nightwing, probably at the end of the first season. Also we know the show has cast Jason Todd, and his relationship with Dick and/or Bruce likely plays into the decision.  

Given that Batman seems to be set up as a malign and mysterious offscreen presence (think the Emperor in the first two installments of _Star Wars_), I wonder if Jason isn’t being set up as Dick’s protege rather than Bruce’s. Otherwise, too much if the psychological drama would be backstory rather than story.

----------


## Frontier

> We are getting Robin with issues, hating Batman and afraid he is going to turn into Batman (to the point of hallucinating Bruce’s shadow in his own). That lays the groundwork for a transition to Nightwing, probably at the end of the first season. Also we know the show has cast Jason Todd, and his relationship with Dick and/or Bruce likely plays into the decision.  
> 
> Given that Batman seems to be set up as a malign and mysterious offscreen presence (think the Emperor in the first two installments of _Star Wars_), I wonder if Jason isn’t being set up as Dick’s protege rather than Bruce’s. Otherwise, too much if the psychological drama would be backstory rather than story.


I think they teased that we will see Bruce at some point, or at least there's a Wayne Penthouse set, so we might see some direct interaction between them at some point. 

Although, from the sounds of it, I don't think this version of Dick would want to give Bruce another Robin.

----------


## Confuzzled

> It was implied
> 
> "He doesnt work with Batman anymore after growing to hate him and leaving Gotham for San Francisco.
> 
> After what Batman did to him, hes shut himself off from any relationships, absorbing himself in his work."
> 
> Although my first thought was broken hearted, but then I'm soft.


Endangering an orphaned child by putting him in tights and making him fight psychopaths and criminals every night counts as traumatizing enough without going full on crazy and abusive.

----------


## Frontier

> Endangering an orphaned child by putting him in tights and making him fight psychopaths and criminals every night counts as traumatizing enough without going full on crazy and abusive.


The way they seem to be leaning into it, judging from that character description, sounds like Batman will probably come off as an abusive or bad father figure to the point where Dick's emotionally traumatized enough to not want to ever get close to people again.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Huntress is bruce's daoughter so its about the same or worse


I think they're talking about Bertinelli

----------


## Godlike13

> Seeing they are going the Dixon rute, it may be for the best.


I like Dixon's run.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I like Dixon's run.


Really? Dixon ignored anything ever happened on the Titans and dowplayed any relationship Dick had at the time, so everything was just the Bat Family, it doesn't work with the Titans at all....and everything in his runcame to an end on Marc Andreyko's Nightwing annual. More and more it's looking like that's the canon they are using. You have Jason, you have Batman angst... I just hate the character is never going to me on, and now it's going backwards.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, it was my entry point into the character. Its easy to pick apart in retrospect, and it was far from perfect, but Dixon built a solo world for Nightwing. Something the character did not have. Plus Titans at that point didn’t really have anything going on, and hasn’t since. Of course they systematically tore that world down as soon a Dixon moved on, but what can you do. 

Nightwing needed to grown beyond just the Titans, did Dixon downplay the Titans influence on Nightwing too much, maybe, but I look at how every other Titan has aged over the years and in comparison Nightwing has fair much better. Despite how frustrating it can be to be a Nightwing fan.

----------


## oasis1313

> We are getting Robin with issues, hating Batman and afraid he is going to turn into Batman (to the point of hallucinating Bruces shadow in his own). That lays the groundwork for a transition to Nightwing, probably at the end of the first season. Also we know the show has cast Jason Todd, and his relationship with Dick and/or Bruce likely plays into the decision.  
> 
> Given that Batman seems to be set up as a malign and mysterious offscreen presence (think the Emperor in the first two installments of _Star Wars_), I wonder if Jason isnt being set up as Dicks protege rather than Bruces. Otherwise, too much if the psychological drama would be backstory rather than story.


All of this just looks nasty.

----------


## L.H.

> Really? Dixon ignored anything ever happened on the Titans and dowplayed any relationship Dick had at the time, so everything was just the Bat Family, it doesn't work with the Titans at all....and everything in his runcame to an end on Marc Andreyko's Nightwing annual. More and more it's looking like that's the canon they are using. You have Jason, you have Batman angst... I just hate the character is never going to me on, and now it's going backwards.


That's pretty much what Wolfman did: cutting Dick away from Bruce, Alfred, Babs and give him a new team, a new city and a new life, all revolving around Titans. He even changed his name and his costume, and wanted to have a new Robin, so Dick can be all into Titans franchise. 
Dixon just a gave him a new city and a new supporting cast, including the characters who were with him since the beginning of his history. 
Sorry, but I don't get your point. When Nightwing solo started, Dick was no more in the NTT, the title was ended and there was another Teen Titans book, with a whole different roster. Kory was happily married to Ph'yzzon and, as Raven told, going to be pregnant of their first son. Dick was already cutted away from Titans franchise, and he needed a restart aside from that, and that's what Dixon did. He needed new relationships, and Dixon succeeded in that with Babs, Tim, Amy. His run was screwed up by Devine Grayson, long before the Annual happened. You can like him or not, but he is not to blame for what happened with Dick and the NTT, especially Kory, and neither for what happened before the Crisis. 

About the show, I think we have to see it to know witch kind of direction it's going to have. It looks like we are not going to see a Dick who screwed up with Bruce, but a Bruce who screwed up with Dick, and that's kinda new. Perhaps they're going to mend things during the show.

----------


## Moonwix

> That's pretty much what Wolfman did: cutting Dick away from Bruce, Alfred, Babs and give him a new team, a new city and a new life, all revolving around Titans. He even changed his name and his costume, and wanted to have a new Robin, so Dick can be all into Titans franchise. 
> Dixon just a gave him a new city and a new supporting cast, including the characters who were with him since the beginning of his history. 
> Sorry, but I don't get your point. When Nightwing solo started, Dick was no more in the NTT, the title was ended and there was another Teen Titans book, with a whole different roster. Kory was happily married to Ph'yzzon and, as Raven told, going to be pregnant of their first son. Dick was already cutted away from Titans franchise, and he needed a restart aside from that, and that's what Dixon did. He needed new relationships, and Dixon succeeded in that with Babs, Tim, Amy. His run was screwed up by Devine Grayson, long before the Annual happened. You can like him or not, but he is not to blame for what happened with Dick and the NTT, especially Kory, and neither for what happened before the Crisis. 
> 
> About the show, I think we have to see it to know witch kind of direction it's going to have. It looks like we are not going to see a Dick who screwed up with Bruce, but a Bruce who screwed up with Dick, and that's kinda new. Perhaps they're going to mend things during the show.


This argument is strange,  the show says 'Titans ' not  Nightwing. It's  pretty obvious what direction the show will go. What ever Dixon's era did for Dick means jack, if DC never promotes it outside the comics. The only brand that DC cares for out of the two is the Titans.

----------


## L.H.

> This argument is strange,  the show says 'Titans ' not  Nightwing. It's  pretty obvious what direction the show will go. What ever Dixon's era did for Dick means jack, if DC never promotes it outside the comics. The only brand that DC cares for out of the two is the Titans.


I wasn't talking about the show, just answering about Dixon's route in comics. 

Obviously the show is Titans, and it looks like they are mixing NTT with a bit of Bludhaven (we have Amy as a character), at least in the first season.

----------


## Moonwix

> Nightwing needed to grown beyond just the Titans, did Dixon downplay the Titans influence on Nightwing too much, maybe, but I look at how every other Titan has aged over the years and in comparison Nightwing has fair much better. Despite how frustrating it can be to be a Nightwing fan.


As Dick, really fair any better than the titan characters ? To me he hasn't.  If characters like starfire,  cyborg, raven, beastboy are just has popular with the general audience as Nightwing. After nearly 25 years on a solo, if he was really a success, Nightwing would have had a tv series made of him today and not the Titans.

In comparison to his achievements as a Titans and Nightwing it pretty obvious after 25 years that the Dixon era did to Dick no favours in the so called expanding of the nightwing brand. Because it was mediocre from the get go, trying to copy batman is not ground breaking, how can DC make tv series or a movie's from that when they have batman.  That's why a nightwing batman will never be has successful as a nightwing titan. 
With the titans he has potential beyond just batman sidekick, which the new tv show or animated movie as proven. After 23+ years, Downplaying Dick's achievements  on the Titans is proving to become a bad decision after all.

DC/WB has proven over the resent years that they have no interest to grow the batman franchise with the general audience with  Dick grayson.  They didn't want  to even include him in the DCEU at the start,  and right now it's just all rumours if he would become part of it but with the titans brand, DC is likely to promote Dick with that and as the leading man. This the positive influence the titans has done Dick after all these years.

----------


## Claude

I think it's what people were now assuming, but just for the record - Percy has confirmed on Twitter that the "Dark Web" storyline that was being hyped up at the start of his run is something that's going to feature throughout his time on "Nightwing", rather than being a set-up for another title.

----------


## Godlike13

> As Dick, really fair any better than the titan characters ? To me he hasn't.  If characters like starfire,  cyborg, raven, beastboy are just has popular with the general audience as Nightwing. After nearly 25 years on a solo, if he was really a success, Nightwing would have had a tv series made of him today and not the Titans.
> 
> In comparison to his achievements as a Titans and Nightwing it pretty obvious after 25 years that the Dixon era did to Dick no favours in the so called expanding of the nightwing brand. Because it was mediocre from the get go, trying to copy batman is not ground breaking, how can DC make tv series or a movie's from that when they have batman.  That's why a nightwing batman will never be has successful as a nightwing titan. 
> With the titans he has potential beyond just batman sidekick, which the new tv show or animated movie as proven. After 23+ years, Downplaying Dick's achievements  on the Titans is proving to become a bad decision after all.
> 
> DC/WB has proven over the resent years that they have no interest to grow the batman franchise with the general audience with  Dick grayson.  They didn't want  to even include him in the DCEU at the start,  and right now it's just all rumours if he would become part of it but with the titans brand, DC is likely to promote Dick with that and as the leading man. This the positive influence the titans has done Dick after all these years.


Yes Dick has faired better than the other Titan characters. Instead of floating in and out of limbo, or being perpetual background characters in TTs, Dick was continuously published and marketed. At that time there was no Titans tv show, and till recently it was the Bat side that being more beneficial to him then the Titans side. It’s only now, after these 23 years, that the Titans side is showing more potential again. 

And DC signing a director is not a rumor. So they want to include him, or at least they did till they crashed and burned with JL. Things seem to be up in the air now, but it’s not true that they have proven to have no interest to grow the Batman franchise with the general audience with Dick Grayson. Signing a director is proof that they have interest.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think it's what people were now assuming, but just for the record - Percy has confirmed on Twitter that the "Dark Web" storyline that was being hyped up at the start of his run is something that's going to feature throughout his time on "Nightwing", rather than being a set-up for another title.


That’s cool. I was one of those who thought Nightwing was just gonna be a launchpad.

----------


## Moonwix

Yes it is still a rumour there was no official announcement from WB. Nightwing wasn't even on the DC movie slate going forward.
Until WB actually drops a trailer of a nightwing movie, then that proves DC actually wants to push the brand. Till then, is just rumours.
The Current push Dick is only getting, is as Robin on the Titans. 

Trying to minimise the Titans accomplishment,  doesn't change the fact they are very popular.  So popular  a brand that DC is opening the  animated  series movie at theatres nation wide.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yes it is still a rumour there was no official announcement from WB. Nightwing wasn't even on the DC movie slate going forward.
> Until WB actually drops a trailer of a nightwing movie, then that proves DC actually wants to push the brand. Till then, is just rumours.
> The Current push Dick is only getting, is as Robin on the Titans. 
> 
> Trying to minimise the Titans accomplishment,  doesn't change the fact they are very popular.  So popular  a brand that DC is opening the  animated  series movie at theatres nation wide.


so why do they have a director

----------


## Rakiduam

> so why do they have a director


...for tweeting? Other movies that had lost their directors and have been rewritten multiple times are moving faster.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I see you guys have already been exaggerating Dick’s character in Titans just from reading that breakdown lmao. Read it again guys, he’s not not like hallucinating Bruce’s shadow. It’s mesnt to be a visual sign to the audience that Dick wants to get out of it (as in exactly what Dick was like at the start of NTT before he became Nightwing). 

Dick’s not some broody loner, he’s a workaholic Detective (which is very consistent with the type of character he is and always has been). So that he’s plainly apathetic to other people just means he has no interest in making friends. Which is basically a heavy handed approach to NTT’s Dick and actually Grayson’s Titans book, who was becoming more and more like Bruce until he met Kory and the other Titans, which made him open up.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is the face of the Titans. Every successful adaptation used Dick. Even Young Justice used him over Tim. If we remove him from the Titans, it would fail like a Justice League without the Trinity.

Haters can hate, but Nightwing is a strong brand. The Titans series is leading to a Nightwing evolution. Their logo is blue. The main character is Dick. Even the advertising is focused on Robin. It screams like Grayson fan bait. I won't be surprised if we get a Nightwing tv series or movie in a few years. DC loves money. And Dick Grayson has been a money maker for decades.

----------


## Restingvoice

Brett Booth commission of TimDick vs Freeze
Dg-XygeU0AA-0Yq.jpg

----------


## OWL45

> I see you guys have already been exaggerating Dicks character in Titans just from reading that breakdown lmao. Read it again guys, hes not not like hallucinating Bruces shadow. Its mesnt to be a visual sign to the audience that Dick wants to get out of it (as in exactly what Dick was like at the start of NTT before he became Nightwing). 
> 
> Dicks not some broody loner, hes a workaholic Detective (which is very consistent with the type of character he is and always has been). So that hes plainly apathetic to other people just means he has no interest in making friends. Which is basically a heavy handed approach to NTTs Dick and actually Graysons Titans book, who was becoming more and more like Bruce until he met Kory and the other Titans, which made him open up.


I agree with you. If anyone tries to do anything with this character there is an over reaction of some sort. I personally dont feel like watching some happy go lucky version of the character on screen. I want some grit and complexity to the character.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yes it is still a rumour there was no official announcement from WB. Nightwing wasn't even on the DC movie slate going forward.
> Until WB actually drops a trailer of a nightwing movie, then that proves DC actually wants to push the brand. Till then, is just rumours.
> The Current push Dick is only getting, is as Robin on the Titans. 
> 
> Trying to minimise the Titans accomplishment,  doesn't change the fact they are very popular.  So popular  a brand that DC is opening the  animated  series movie at theatres nation wide.


Its not a rumor, they payed someone to work on it. Thats not a rumor.

 And im not minimizing the Titans accomplishment. The Titans are on a upswing now, but 20 years ago they were on a down swing. Dixon's run kept the character published, and till recently there was more opportunities with the Bat side. The momentum is only really swinging towards the Titans side again now. We are still not really even seeing that momentum bleed into comics yet. Hell the Titans office does nothing but shit on Nightwing, and seems to be almost trying to sabotage the character even.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I agree with you. If anyone tries to do anything with this character there is an over reaction of some sort. I personally don’t feel like watching some happy go lucky version of the character on screen. I want some grit and complexity to the character.


Grit and complexity and complexity would be fantastic, not sure how that is translated to depression, detachment and misery though.

Teen titans did 5/6 seasons without using Batman once except for some easter eggs. Titans it's already puting Batman simbols all over the plase as an open wound, and <spoiler> there would be Gotham and the batsignal and Jason Todd</spoiler>  and that is Dixon's legacy, tie the character firmily to something else so it can't move on, that and the name of a city and a villain that at this point most people just tolerate until is done and over. I'm so tired of it.

----------


## Slim Shady

> I like Dixon's run.


Same here. I always thought Dixon had a great handle on the character and the Bat verse in general. He did a good job building the Nightwing world.

----------


## Drako

Just saw this on some random tumblr. Looks like it's from the upcoming Batman issue where Dick is Batman.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Just saw this on some random tumblr. Looks like it's from the upcoming Batman issue where Dick is Batman.


It's from Batgirl#25 IIRC.
DC is pushing Dickbabs HARD recently...

----------


## Godlike13

Not gonna lie, I freaked out for a second there LoL.

----------


## Celgress

> 


Aw, they look so cute up the rooftop together.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## byrd156

> You know I've never seen BTAS. Is the series something an adult would enjoy?


The whole show kicks all kids of ass. The weakest episode is There's a Batman in my Basement, it's not bad but its really a kid focused episode which isn't a bad thing.

----------


## byrd156

> Over on the Titans thread JimmySpectra posted a link to a breakdown of the first _Titans_ episode:
> 
> http://splashreport.com/exclusive-ti...ails-are-here/
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  it sounds like a mix of Christopher Nolan and ASBAR-era Frank Miller. Crazy abusive Batman and all that. 
> *end of spoilers*


Really hope this isn't true.

----------


## byrd156

> Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...


I would assume he becomes Nightwing later on down the road. It's nice to build up Robin for a bit and then show the casual audience how he changed.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

The combination of Batman # 50, DickBabs teasing, and the supposed reveal in Batman 55/Nightwing 50 I feel like relationships are dominanting Bat Books and I will take a break or be more selective. Ships have derailed stories and after the Shawn drama I would rather Nightwing focus on establishing a more character defined world than rekindling an old love. I am staying away from all superheroes marriages except for F4 since it’s integrated into the story of that title. I know DickBabs is coming and I have no interest.

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Uhg, we're never gonna get a live action Nightwing...


far as i know the Nightwing movie is stil being made

----------


## Moonwix

> Its not a rumor, they payed someone to work on it. Thats not a rumor.
> 
>  And im not minimizing the Titans accomplishment. The Titans are on a upswing now, but 20 years ago they were on a down swing. Dixon's run kept the character published, and till recently there was more opportunities with the Bat side. The momentum is only really swinging towards the Titans side again now. We are still not really even seeing that momentum bleed into comics yet. Hell the Titans office does nothing but shit on Nightwing, and seems to be almost trying to sabotage the character even.


According to the director on Twitter, he seems like a big fan of Nightwing and more interested in making a nightwing  movie than WB themselves. I think he is still on the audition stage, writing a script to get hired for the job. Not because he was hired by WB. 
I will go with the actual WB/DC official announcement with the movie slate. Nightwing was not on it and I believe this and not some media rumour.

----------


## Moonwix

> The combination of Batman # 50, DickBabs teasing, and the supposed reveal in Batman 55/Nightwing 50 I feel like relationships are dominanting Bat Books and I will take a break or be more selective. Ships have derailed stories and after the Shawn drama I would rather Nightwing focus on establishing a more character defined world than rekindling an old love. I am staying away from all superheroes marriages except for F4 since it’s integrated into the story of that title. I know DickBabs is coming and I have no interest.


This is all Tom king,  he is nothing but a shipper and like all shippers,  very predictable.  Now that his fan fic ship in batman ends soon, he needs another ship to write his stories.

----------


## oasis1313

I just read the "War of Jokes and Riddles" TP and loved it; I think Tom King is great.  Best line:  "I can't see over your thighs."  Would love to see him write some more Grayson.

----------


## Derek Metaltron

As with Rogue and Gambit’s editorial mandated wedding to sate angry fans I think the inevitable Dick and Babs wedding from left field will ruin their relationship for coming so forced, which is a shame as I like both pairings, but doing it to meet a requirement which will no doubt end less than two years away in both cases will damage them as much as Kitty and Peter and Bruce and Selina. Marvel and DC have both handed these weddings terribly.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Grit and complexity and complexity would be fantastic, not sure how that is translated to depression, detachment and misery though.
> 
> Teen titans did 5/6 seasons without using Batman once except for some easter eggs. Titans it's already puting Batman simbols all over the plase as an open wound, and <spoiler> there would be Gotham and the batsignal and Jason Todd</spoiler>  and that is Dixon's legacy, tie the character firmily to something else so it can't move on, that and the name of a city and a villain that at this point most people just tolerate until is done and over. I'm so tired of it.


Depression detachement and misey
that sounds like grayson arc right before the judas contract

You may have recognized TT animated spin on it being the obsession episodes Robin have, its al their

Is there a problem with batman being refrenced in show staring robin?

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> This is all Tom king,  he is nothing but a shipper and like all shippers,  very predictable.  Now that his fan fic ship in batman ends soon, he needs another ship to write his stories.


Lol true but before Dickbabs coming I could enjoy some adventure of Bruce and Dick. Besides，Tom King is good at one-shots so I am still in the hope that Batman#54 would be a great story.

----------


## L.H.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/02/n...2-shatterstar/

What do you think about?

----------


## Alycat

All remaining non-married heroes can remain sexless and relationshipless at this point. That's how tired I am of romance, especially the poor romance that keeps getting forced.

----------


## nonsense man

my rule is if you can write good romance do it.  If not don't force yourself to write something you are not good at

----------


## Rakiduam

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/02/n...2-shatterstar/
> 
> What do you think about?


I think Chris McKay said there would be an open auditions for Nightwing... so if Lewis Tan met With DC about playing Nightwing, McKay doesn't has that much say in the proyect or someone is lying.

----------


## Godlike13

Hahaha,
https://www.newsarama.com/40651-ben-...-a-couple.html

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> I think Chris McKay said there would be an open auditions for Nightwing... so if Lewis Tan met With DC about playing Nightwing, McKay doesn't has that much say in the proyect or someone is lying.



https://twitter.com/TheLewisTan/stat...81562943766528

Lewis Tan has confirmed on his Twitter that the project he met for wasn't Nightwing.

----------


## oasis1313

> https://twitter.com/TheLewisTan/stat...81562943766528
> 
> Lewis Tan has confirmed on his Twitter that the project he met for wasn't Nightwing.


It would be an honor for any young actor to be cast as Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

It's like the 50th actor wanting to be Nightwing. DC needs to see the want of Nightwing content. We want more Dick Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's like the 50th actor wanting to be Nightwing. DC needs to see the want of Nightwing content. We want more Dick Grayson.


Amen to that.  I think one of the problems with DC is that it focuses entirely on its "Trinity" and fails to develop other properties--as opposed to Marvel.

----------


## dietrich

Okay what the heck is going on? Has anyone seen what DC has to say about Dick in today's DC Nation?

*This is his graduation to adult hero. His chance to prove he can run a proper serious team. As readers will know Rebirth Titans ran afoul of the JL for being loose canons so Dick feels he has a lot to prove*

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, that's pretty much what Abnett said in the interview of Titans before the Special came out. That's why people are angry.

The graduation to adult hero thing is new though.

----------


## Drako

The guy who was Batman, in this continuity by the way, needs a "graduation to adult hero." Ook.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Okay what the heck is going on? Has anyone seen what DC has to say about Dick in today's DC Nation?
> 
> *This is his graduation to adult hero. His chance to prove he can run a proper serious team. As readers will know Rebirth Titans ran afoul of the JL for being loose canons so Dick feels he has a lot to prove*


even though in the book he says this just a courtesy and he is doing this no matter what they say

----------


## dietrich

DC is just pissing me off big time. What the heck is going on? I have to believe that there is more going on here because it just makes no sense.

What a joke.

----------


## Restingvoice

> even though in the book he says this just a courtesy and he is doing this no matter what they say


Oh yeah, he said so in the preview. Then the adult hero graduation thing is from the Justice League point of view, which still doesn't make sense, considering Batman, Superman and Nightwing relationship in their own comics, and a false marketing on DC's part... but I already said enough about that in the Titans Special preview thread. 

Right now I'm just, whatevs DC, you already did a false marketing

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh yeah, he said so in the preview. Then the adult hero graduation thing is from the Justice League point of view, which still doesn't make sense, considering Batman, Superman and Nightwing relationship in their own comics, and a false marketing on DC's part... but I already said enough about that in the Titans Special preview thread. 
> 
> Right now I'm just, whatevs DC, you already did a false marketing


you know how batman acts when he is inforont of his friends

----------


## Restingvoice

> you know how batman acts when he is inforont of his friends


Making his own son look bad in front of his friends to maintain his act does not a good Batman make, and that's not even counting the hypocrisy of the League trying to control the Titans for endangering the world when they broke The Source Wall.

Like I said, I already said enough about this on Titans Special preview thread. Not going there again. I hate that book for not only making Titans look bad, but the Justice League too.

----------


## DragonPiece

Ignoring whatever dumb things Abnett says, I really enjoyed the new Nightwing issue today. How did you guys feel about Dick and Barbra's dynamic?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Making his own son look bad in front of his friends to maintain his act does not a good Batman make, and that's not even counting the hypocrisy of the League trying to control the Titans for endangering the world when they broke The Source Wall.
> 
> Like I said, I already said enough about this on Titans Special preview thread. Not going there again. I hate that book for not only making Titans look bad, but the Justice League too.


the jsutice league are a bunch of bullies we been knew that

----------


## oasis1313

DC never misses an opportunity to kick Grayson.

----------


## Godlike13

> Okay what the heck is going on? Has anyone seen what DC has to say about Dick in today's DC Nation?
> 
> *This is his graduation to adult hero. His chance to prove he can run a proper serious team. As readers will know Rebirth Titans ran afoul of the JL for being loose canons so Dick feels he has a lot to prove*


Abnett on Nightwing sucks. What else is new. Dude never got it, and just continues to not get it.

----------


## berserkerclaw

I loved nightwing newest issue and i always love dick/babs interactions. I really do miss Oracle so i enjoyed her tech actions in this.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Turning Dick into Neo-Luddite so they give Babs and Dick a more opposites attract narrative I'm not a fan off.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Turning Dick into Neo-Luddite so they give Babs and Dick a more opposites attract narrative I'm not a fan off.


It’s too heavy handed, there is good but just too heavy handed.

----------


## Godlike13

It was done for the villain, not Babs.

----------


## oasis1313

> Turning Dick into Neo-Luddite so they give Babs and Dick a more opposites attract narrative I'm not a fan off.


I remember when Dick was the smartest kid in town.  Now he's a moron so more favored characters can look smart in comparison.  Breaks my heart.

----------


## Lazurus33

SPOILERS

Nightwing #46

The Wing Cave?

1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg

----------


## OWL45

> SPOILERS
> 
> Nightwing #46
> 
> The Wing Cave?
> 
> 1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg


I loved that part of the issue. Things are slowly building back up with the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

Something I always forgot to say, I do like how this art makes Babs look older. My personal preference for Dick himself is still the younger look, like the Wedding Prelude issue, but I like the look of Barbara here.

Also, hey, original Discowing costume.

----------


## K. Jones

Disco suit and Extreme suit spotted! And New 52 suit as well!

----------


## Alycat

> Ignoring whatever dumb things Abnett says, I really enjoyed the new Nightwing issue today. How did you guys feel about Dick and Barbra's dynamic?


It's not written badly, it's just something I have no interest in. Like not bad just boring.

----------


## oasis1313

I like these 3 pages--thanks!

----------


## Rac7d*

> I remember when Dick was the smartest kid in town.  Now he's a moron so more favored characters can look smart in comparison.  Breaks my heart.


He a moron how? dont blame anyone but Tim drake for that once becoming the BRAIN was his signature stick Jason and Dick had to be considered less hands on with tech. Their not morons jsut becasue they cant code?

I think they are going overboard making him unplug from the world, since he is a millenial but otherwise they have been consistent with him

----------


## Mataza

Uh, Tim never made anyone dumber. If anything we had plenty of stories where Dick was the teacher and Tim the student, even by the end of Robin.

Dick has been dumbed down for the same reason everyone else has. The heroes have "less experience" that they will get back when the continuity gets "fixed"

----------


## Godlike13

The boy band thing is unfortunately a real thing, and quite frankly it makes us all a little dumber. Trying to play up general trait or characteristics they all intrinsically share is what's truly dumb.

----------


## Mataza

Considering most of these guys almost never share an issue. And add to that that in both eternals the "boy band" had every robin be equally dumb, i disagree.

The fact of the matter is that they have been struggling to define nightwing as anything more than acrobatic batlite for a long time now. They went for Dick being a very observant detective, then they dropped it, not because of Tim, who wasnt even part of the batoffice back then (and whose origin and traits got distributed among old and new characters) but because no one thought it was something that added to the character(which i disagree with, it was something i very much liked).
Grayson was basically about Dick being the guy that was never in the loop, and blaming it on Tim seems just silly, considering the state of the batfamily back then and that the book was being writen by two Dick Grayson fans, and how far the setting was from the Batman Mythos.

I just think the boyband idea is kinda silly outside of event books, we are talking about a solo ongoing. Again, blaming the lack of intelligence of a character on another character that is in limbo feels like an excuse.
Like i could do this for every character that has had a relationship with Tim/Lex/Bruce, etc. Because this character was clever, literally hundreds of characters are dumber? I dont buy it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Uh, Tim never made anyone dumber. If anything we had plenty of stories where Dick was the teacher and Tim the student, even by the end of Robin.
> 
> Dick has been dumbed down for the same reason everyone else has. The heroes have "less experience" that they will get back when the continuity gets "fixed"


yea he has  becasue that what being a geinus means , in comics  everyone else is dumber by comparison
his teen titans run is evident of that

Dick  hasnt been dumbed down he jsut cant build super weapons  on the fly like bruce,babs,time and damian

----------


## Godlike13

The boybandificion goes back to Dixon’s days. It’s not always an issue, but it still pops up. I don’t think what Percy is doing has anything to do with thing though, it’s more for his villain.

----------


## Mataza

> yea he has  becasue that what being a geinus means , in comics  everyone else is dumber by comparison
> his teen titans run is evident of that
> 
> Dick  hasnt been dumbed down he jsut cant build super weapons  on the fly like bruce,babs,tim and damian


This is the new 52, everyone had to pick a trick and stick with that, because they were "inexperienced".
So dick had to keep "acrobatics" and just run with that. 
Tim had to pick "nerdy stuff" and just run with that.
God, i hated that crap.


This created a ton of problems tho, because you had a huge cast of underdeveloped, unskilled characters with no time to regain their skills or development.

----------


## oasis1313

> This is the new 52, everyone had to pick a trick and stick with that, because they were "inexperienced".
> So dick had to keep "acrobatics" and just run with that. 
> Tim had to pick "nerdy stuff" and just run with that.
> God, i hated that crap.
> 
> 
> This created a ton of problems tho, because you had a huge cast of underdeveloped, unskilled characters with no time to regain their skills or development.


Flawed reasoning.  And lazy.  And Dick didn't get to "keep" acrobatics".  Remember, Tim has been pronounced an "Olympic Level Acrobat".  The gods hand him more free gifts than Donna Troy.

----------


## Mataza

> Flawed reasoning.  And lazy.  And Dick didn't get to "keep" acrobatics".  Remember, Tim has been pronounced an "Olympic Level Acrobat".


And people hated that. Also, it was introduced to keep his training and backstory ultra short, because 5 year timeline. But go ahead and think its because "everybody loves timmy". 
You are so one note and your troll bait so stale its actually kind of an achievement that youve been around this long, ive been around a couple months and its all i see you post. 

All i remember new 52 Tim doing was staring at a screen. That was his trick, and it never worked in the titans.




> The gods hand him more free gifts than Donna Troy.


Do they tho? Have you even read new 52 titans? had incompetence writen all over all the pages in all the runs. Unlikable, incompetent, entitled teenagers.
They never got a victory, everything they did was wrong. They left behind like 3 titans, "titans are family, no one left behind" my ass. Every win they got was just manipulation.
I remember this one panel where he gets onepunched by a robot after he fails to use a gadget, it was so pathetic.

Anyway, Dick Grayson thread.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Flawed reasoning.  And lazy.  And Dick didn't get to "keep" acrobatics".  Remember, Tim has been pronounced an "Olympic Level Acrobat".  The gods hand him more free gifts than Donna Troy.


Tim got that bullshit line on one issue, but far and away Dick is portrayed as the most physically capable. 

But the central issue is the distilling of the Robins into Smart, Sexy, Brat, Badass.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tim got that bullshit line on one issue, but far and away Dick is portrayed as the most physically capable. 
> 
> But the central issue is the distilling of the Robins into Smart, Sexy, Brat, Badass.


I would agree wholeheartedly with you.   It's pigeonholing, and because of that, the characters are never allowed to surprise their readers.  So, we've got Smart Robin (Tim), Sexy Robin (Dick), Brat Robin (Damian), and Badass Robin (Jason).  We've had Girl Robins (Steph and Carrie).  Now we've got Black Robin Dressed Up in Yellow and Black with Meta Powers.  I think we should have more typecasting:  How about Fat Robin Who Can't See His Pixie Boots?  Zombie Robin who eats the bad guys after Batman ties 'em up and leaves 'em for the cops?  Dyslexic Robin who can actually understand everything Zatanna says?  None of these characters can step outside their assigned "roles" within the structure, and it could be a lot better for them.

----------


## Pohzee

Hey look what's back! God bless King

----------


## oasis1313

> Hey look what's back! God bless King


Looks really good--maybe our consolation prize for the wedding fiasco.

----------


## RedQueen

New 52 was so weird with their classification. Babs was pretty much known as the brain however Gail Simone said editorial she wasn't allowed to touch a computer at all. I think Gail fought hard for one said around #15 or something. Now it's finally back and Burnside is actually to thank Babs for getting her tech back.





> Hey look what's back! God bless King


Thank the lords. Like I hate every single New 52 Robin costume. Give me pixie boots and short shorts for Robin any day.

----------


## Claude

> Tim got that bullshit line on one issue, but far and away Dick is portrayed as the most physically capable. 
> 
> But the central issue is the distilling of the Robins into Smart, Sexy, Brat, Badass.


It's mostly a Tynion thing, in fairness - but he was in control of a _lot_ of the material when the Robins crossed over.

It's lazy, stupid fanfiction-style writing. I have brothers. When we meet new people, noone asks which one of us is "the heart".

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hey look what's back! God bless King


Isn't that just a variant? Is it back in the story?

----------


## Pohzee

> Isn't that just a variant? Is it back in the story?


It is the main cover to Batman 54 by Matt Wagner, a story about Bruce and Dick recollecting their history. So it will have flashbacks.

----------


## Badou

Very glad that the old Robin costume is back over the awful New 52 one, but I still never understood why they didn't keep the classic look and design and just give him some pants and maybe some proper boots. I don't think there would be that much wrong with it if they did that, even in this cover here, but they went with that over designed mess all throughout the New 52. 

Still very glad it is back over what we had.

----------


## Frontier

Welp, it's finally back  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aioros22

As long Jay gets to keep the his new updated Robin look, Dick can keep the classic one for himself.

----------


## dietrich

I don't get the love for that original Robin outfit. I really don't. It makes me think that Bruce is a bit of a prev.

----------


## Gurz

'couse you can't beat the green chainmail trunks and pixie boots...  :Big Grin:

----------


## Pohzee

> I don't get the love for that original Robin outfit. I really don't. It makes me think that Bruce is a bit of a prev.


Because the New 52 suit is so incredibly awful that it makes everything else look good.

And it is nice to see it back in canon because it is the costume that Dick wore for 40 years.

----------


## oasis1313

> Very glad that the old Robin costume is back over the awful New 52 one, but I still never understood why they didn't keep the classic look and design and just give him some pants and maybe some proper boots. I don't think there would be that much wrong with it if they did that, even in this cover here, but they went with that over designed mess all throughout the New 52. 
> 
> Still very glad it is back over what we had.


Well, it's what we've been accustomed to for many decades.  And Dick was introduced before World War II even started, looked to be about 10-13 years old.  Back then, it was common for boys to wear shorts and they got to wear "long pants" when they grew up.  Robin was simply dressed as a child because he was considered to be a gateway character for children.

----------


## Hizashi

How long are we getting DickBats back? And is he only in the Batman book?

----------


## Pohzee

> How long are we getting DickBats back? And is he only in the Batman book?


3 issues in the main title (Batman 51-53) and one issue of Batgirl. He does not appear to take up the cowl at all anywhere else, but his appearance in Batgirl as Batman will be referenced in Nightwing.

----------


## oasis1313

> 3 issues in the main title (Batman 51-53) and one issue of Batgirl. He does not appear to take up the cowl at all anywhere else, but his appearance in Batgirl as Batman will be referenced in Nightwing.


No hanging with the Justice League?

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> 3 issues in the main title (Batman 51-53) and one issue of Batgirl. He does not appear to take up the cowl at all anywhere else, but his appearance in Batgirl as Batman will be referenced in Nightwing.


Since the wedding didn't come ture I suppose the Batman who appears in #51-53 would still be Bruce. Like before，the solicits are fake to prevent the big twist in #50 from being leaked.

----------


## Pohzee

> Since the wedding didn't come ture I suppose the Batman who appears in #51-53 would still be Bruce. Like before，the solicits are fake to prevent the big twist in #50 from being leaked.


Nope King confirmed Dick will be Batman again on Twitter, and the pages of Batman and Batgirl together in this thread prove that DickBats will cameo in her book as well.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Nope King confirmed Dick will be Batman again on Twitter, and the pages of Batman and Batgirl together in this thread prove that DickBats will cameo in her book as well.


King confirmed it？That's great :Big Grin:  I love Dickbats but since DC has played the trick once I am very cautious about the solicits now.

----------


## Restingvoice

The first solicit marketed it as a honeymoon effect, but the next one said that Bruce voluntarily went to prison to answer Mr. Freeze's lawsuit. Since now we know there isn't a honeymoon that will be the reason why Dick is Batman.

Also, there's a teaser art depicting Burnside Batgirl hanging out with DickBats.

----------


## yohyoi

It would be great if we get another Nightwing Elseworlds series. A great way to experiment with the character without affecting the main continuity. If Dick can't be Batman in the main continuity, we can get Dickbats in another Earth.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> The first solicit marketed it as a honeymoon effect, but the next one said that Bruce voluntarily went to prison to answer Mr. Freeze's lawsuit. Since now we know there isn't a honeymoon that will be the reason why Dick is Batman.
> 
> Also, there's a teaser art depicting Burnside Batgirl hanging out with DickBats.


Ah，that's quite convincing. Thank you :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

> No hanging with the Justice League?


What good would that do?

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, im sure it’d be interesting to see what amateur the JL would dig up to babysit him as Batman. Abnett’s stink is still too fresh for me to want to see him hang out with the JL any time soon. Which is sad, but what can you do.

----------


## Waterfall

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-06.html

Titans Special   31,898
Nightwing #45     26,242


Not good sales for either series. Nightwing fell below under even Batgirl and Terrifics and those numbers for Titans Special only came after the amount of marketing and No Justice tie-in. Teen Titans Special sold better than Titans Special. I don't expect a sales bump on Titans series with these numbers in mind so the new direction is DOA.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Bludhaven hasn’t been relevant to Nightwing for a Decade until it was brought back for Rebirth and has consumed all Nightwing stories and forces the reader to attempt to connect with a City on the level of Gotham and it won’t work.

----------


## Rac7d*

> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-06.html
> 
> Titans Special   31,898
> Nightwing #45     26,242
> 
> 
> Not good sales for either series. Nightwing fell below under even Batgirl and Terrifics and those numbers for Titans Special only came after the amount of marketing and No Justice tie-in. Teen Titans Special sold better than Titans Special. I don't expect a sales bump on Titans series with these numbers in mind so the new direction is DOA.



I looke at the sales for the last 3 months its been about there for night sometimes more somtimes less,

Im not worried about him

GL
Aquaman 
Cyborg survive with worse   

Titans new lineup is not exactly  extravagant


from july through fall 2018  Robin, NIghtwing and Dick grayson is gonna get visual boost from Titans and TTGO 
so lets see how sales do at the point

DC doesnt care what abbnet does, I wont stop buying it becasue that could hurt nightwing more then help him as of now

----------


## Waterfall

As someone who dropped the book recently, the problem for me wasn't Bludhaven, it's Percy's complete recharacterization of the Dick. I also found thee setting too 90s for my taste, Seeley & Humphries moved away from that and Percy just brought it all back.

It seems they will use DickBabs to keep numbers but how much will that work? We will see. It was recently changed back to bimonthly series again too.

----------


## Fergus

RobinGrayson is looking good in the on-set pictures from the LA Titans show.

----------


## Armor of God

> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-06.html
> 
> Titans Special   31,898
> Nightwing #45     26,242
> 
> 
> Not good sales for either series. Nightwing fell below under even Batgirl and Terrifics and those numbers for Titans Special only came after the amount of marketing and No Justice tie-in. Teen Titans Special sold better than Titans Special. I don't expect a sales bump on Titans series with these numbers in mind so the new direction is DOA.


Batgirl is on its 24th issue while Nightwing just finished the 46th issue. Hardly comparable.

----------


## Waterfall

> Batgirl is on its 24th issue while Nightwing just finished the 46th issue. Hardly comparable.


Um, no. Nightwing was LEAGUES above Batgirl. Batgirl's Rebirth relaunch has had pretty lackluster numbers so far. This bump is with the creative team change. Whereas Nightwing was in the same tier as Harley Quinn and Titans. The numbers are falling ever since Seeley left.

----------


## Claude

> Um, no. Nightwing was LEAGUES above Batgirl. Batgirl's Rebirth relaunch has had pretty lackluster numbers so far. This bump is with the creative team change. Whereas Nightwing was in the same tier as Harley Quinn and Titans. The numbers are falling ever since Seeley left.


I'm quite liking Percy's run but, at the risk of sounding like someone just beating a personal nostalgia drum, it's looking clearer and clearer that there was no story or sales benefit to cutting off "Grayson" to bring back a more nostalgic "Nightwing" title.

----------


## Rakiduam

> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-06.html
> 
> Titans Special   31,898
> Nightwing #45     26,242
> 
> 
> Not good sales for either series. Nightwing fell below under even Batgirl and Terrifics and those numbers for Titans Special only came after the amount of marketing and No Justice tie-in. Teen Titans Special sold better than Titans Special. I don't expect a sales bump on Titans series with these numbers in mind so the new direction is DOA.


Titans numbers are no getting bettter while Abnett is writing it, everyone that care to see what he would do with the title did it with the launch, and at this point he exhausted patience of many.

Weirdly, there is no way Nightwing and Titans should go bimonthly with those numbers....

----------


## Godlike13

Oh man what a bump for for Batgirl, that’s cool . I’m not concerned about Nightwing, if his sales were truly in trouble they wouldn’t have gone back to the bimonthly shipping. That being said DC definitely could have handled the marketing and transition after Seeley left much better.

----------


## Godlike13

> I'm quite liking Percy's run but, at the risk of sounding like someone just beating a personal nostalgia drum, it's looking clearer and clearer that there was no story or sales benefit to cutting off "Grayson" to bring back a more nostalgic "Nightwing" title.


What numbers do you think Grayson was pulling at the end there? This is 46 issues in, on a bimonthly schedule, and multiple creator shifts.

----------


## Claude

> What numbers do you think Grayson was pulling at the end there? This is 46 issues in, on a bimonthly schedule, and multiple creator shifts.


Comichron has Grayson 19 at 27,378, so about the same as what we're seeing now.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...6/2016-04.html

Although your point about the increased shipping is well taken!

----------


## Drako

> What numbers do you think Grayson was pulling at the end there? This is 46 issues in, on a bimonthly schedule, and multiple creator shifts.


Grayson	20	$3.99	DC	23,762.
Grayson	19	$3.99	DC	27,378
Grayson	18	$3.99	DC	33,550
Grayson	17	$3.99	DC	30,257
Grayson	16	$3.99	DC	30,420

#17 Was the last one with King and Seeley.

----------


## dietrich

According to 4chan Dick is leaving the Titans to be replaced by Tim Drake

http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996

Is this site legit? I know they leaked some DCEU stuff but can't remember if it turned out to be bogus.

----------


## Godlike13

Its 4chan.

----------


## dietrich

> Its 4chan.


I know I know but I just really really hope that this one time they could be right. I just want Dick off that team.

----------


## thebluefeline

> According to 4chan Dick is leaving the Titans to be replaced by Tim Drake
> 
> http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996
> 
> Is this site legit? I know they leaked some DCEU stuff but can't remember if it turned out to be bogus.


They're mostly just rumors but they still could end up being valid so take them with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya I wouldn't mind Dick away from Abnett, and even out of an office that seems like it has it out for the character. It a shame given the Titans show is coming, but what can you do. It seems odd to me though that they would want to relaunch the Titans with Red Robin, rather then do a Young Justice book.

----------


## dietrich

> They're mostly just rumors but they still could end up being valid so take them with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.


If I'm lucky the Dick Grayson and Tomasi rumours might just pan out.

----------


## BloodOps

If Dick is off the Titans, it means Abnett is not writing Dick Grayson, so count me in for that.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Dick Grayson Of the Titans is necessary because Abnett has butchered them, the Outsiders without the Graduation Day Grim Nightwing has potential to make it as successful as the original run.

----------


## Godlike13

Uhh, Winick’s Nightwing. Certainly not one of my favorite portrayal. That crap with Huntress still bothers me to this day.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I know I know but I just really really hope that this one time they could be right. I just want Dick off that team.


Do you think He gonna leave the team he founded right efore the debut of the titans live action series? .......
Titans is a good idea, it just has a writer who proably think millenials are all teenagers when most of them are grown adults with jobs and familes.

Our hope is that as Titans helps boost sales up, leading the brand to come to better popularity and value promptingg DC to get it better wirters like what happened to Harley and SS

----------


## yohyoi

I saw 4chan then I stopped reading. What's next Facebook?

----------


## king81992

> According to 4chan Dick is leaving the Titans to be replaced by Tim Drake
> 
> http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996
> 
> Is this site legit? I know they leaked some DCEU stuff but can't remember if it turned out to be bogus.


4chan is either legit or bullshit depending on various factors. Its best to assume that all their claims are lies until proven otherwise.

----------


## Fergus

> Do you think He gonna leave the team he founded right efore the debut of the titans live action series? .......
> Titans is a good idea, it just has a writer who proably think millenials are all teenagers when most of them are grown adults with jobs and familes.
> 
> Our hope is that as Titans helps boost sales up, leading the brand to come to better popularity and value promptingg DC to get it better wirters like what happened to Harley and SS



When did Dick stop being Robin in comics?  When did he leave Teen Titans in the comics? Is he still Robin in Other media including the crazy popular TTGO? Was he Robin in Young Justice ? Is Kori a Titan? No Is she a Titan in the Live  Action ? Yes

My point is DC has never bothered much with synergy with the Titans Brands.

----------


## Fergus

> According to 4chan Dick is leaving the Titans to be replaced by Tim Drake
> 
> http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996
> 
> Is this site legit? I know they leaked some DCEU stuff but can't remember if it turned out to be bogus.


The poster who said to take it with a grain of salt is correct.
Nightwing with the Outsiders isn't appealing to me.

----------


## OWL45

Lord I hope he leaves Titans for a new Outsiders Team. I have wanted this for so long. He needs to be running a Black Ops style version of the Justice League and the Outsiders fit that bill.

----------


## oasis1313

Dick just needs to get away from Abnett.  Give him to a writer who doesn't hate him.

----------


## OWL45

> Dick just needs to get away from Abnett.  Give him to a writer who doesn't hate him.


I agree with that too but for all the fan backlash with Grayson the character had never had more spot light. He needs those types of stories but just throw him in the Nightwing costume to appease the fan base who are resistant to change.

----------


## Rac7d*

> When did Dick stop being Robin in comics?  When did he leave Teen Titans in the comics? Is he still Robin in Other media including the crazy popular TTGO? Was he Robin in Young Justice ? Is Kori a Titan? No Is she a Titan in the Live  Action ? Yes
> 
> My point is DC has never bothered much with synergy with the Titans Brands.


Until Now, Dick Will transition to nightwing in Titans just like he did in the comics. DC is finally trying to put some effort into the brand a brand that Dick is the face of, why would you want to remove him from it.  So he can be part of the JL, those Old assholes who have no respect for anyone they dont consider on their level,   their always like one chess move from becomeing the Justice Lords, thus justifying Nightwing the New Order

----------


## Fergus

> Until Now, Dick Will transition to nightwing in Titans just like he did in the comics. DC is finally trying to put some effort into the brand a brand that Dick is the face of, why would you want to remove him from it.  So he can be part of the JL, those Old assholes who have no respect for anyone they dont consider on their level,   their always like one chess move from becomeing the Justice Lords, thus justifying Nightwing the New Order


Man you know as I think about it Dick is the face of Not just the Titans but Robin and TT as well.

Dick Grayson deserves more respect and more care than DC puts in.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Man you know as I think about it Dick is the face of Not just the Titans but Robin and TT as well.
> 
> Dick Grayson deserves more respect and more care than DC puts in.



DC only treats the big 3 well, thank god for the womans moovemnt it reinvigorated WW worth since she was near threatened to being replaced by Harley

----------


## Miles To Go

Details on what's to come from Dick (leak from reddit)

*spoilers:*
 -Dick/Babs being pushed as "damage control" for Bat/Cat wedding misfire.
-Dick's time as Batman in King's run will connect to Nightwing, Nightwing will double-ship for a few months
-DC Editorial unhappy with direction of Titans, want to push Dick into an Outsiders book
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Fergus

> Details on what's to come from Dick (leak from reddit)
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  -Dick/Babs being pushed as "damage control" for Bat/Cat wedding misfire.
> -Dick's time as Batman in King's run will connect to Nightwing, Nightwing will double-ship for a few months
> -DC Editorial unhappy with direction of Titans, want to push Dick into an Outsiders book
> *end of spoilers*


Those are the same 4chan rumours

----------


## Fergus

> DC only treats the big 3 well, thank god for the womans moovemnt it reinvigorated WW worth since she was near threatened to being replaced by Harley


I wonder how much Dick Grayson "Franchise"[Robin, Titans, TT, Nightwing], WW Franchise, Harley Quinn "Franchise" make respectively for AT&T? We might find that the Big 3 isn't comprised of who we think.

Though DCSHG is a money spinner so that bumped Wondie quite a bit along with her movie.



By Dick Grayson franchise I mean an amalgamation of the character's various identities in various media

----------


## Claude

> Details on what's to come from Dick (leak from reddit)
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  -Dick/Babs being pushed as "damage control" for Bat/Cat wedding misfire.
> -Dick's time as Batman in King's run will connect to Nightwing, Nightwing will double-ship for a few months
> -DC Editorial unhappy with direction of Titans, want to push Dick into an Outsiders book
> *end of spoilers*


General rule of thumb for me? Never believe a rumour that tells a fandom what they already believe - so "BatCat Wedding was a huge disaster that DC are paniced and trying to fix!" and "DC hate the current Titans run that's barely an issue in!" are enough to make me disregard these.

If DC didn't like Abnett on "Titans" then, when they relaunched the book they wouldn't have kept Abnett.

----------


## Restingvoice

DickBabs being pushed is nothing new, BatCat or not, and DickBats connecting to his own series is logical.
The last one is weird since we have a Titans show coming up. Logically they'll want to maintain some kind of connection. 
They did hold off from launching a Supergirl book at the same time as the tv show, but that's because they wanted to do Rebirth.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I wonder how much Dick Grayson "Franchise"[Robin, Titans, TT, Nightwing], WW Franchise, Harley Quinn "Franchise" make respectively for AT&T? We might find that the Big 3 isn't comprised of who we think.
> 
> Though DCSHG is a money spinner so that bumped Wondie quite a bit along with her movie.
> 
> 
> 
> By Dick Grayson franchise I mean an amalgamation of the character's various identities in various media


Well，I think the problem is AT&T and Warner don't care that much about DC comics. As long as they own these characters in order to make movies，TV series，games...DC comics can do whatever it wants to do（that is，whatever Didio and Lee wanna do，and we all know Didio's opinion about Nightwing）
On the other side，the success on other media brings little synergy to comic book sales. Wonder Woman's movie was a great hit but her book sales almost got zero boost. After that I think DC just doesn't give a damn about characters' success on other media. But I agree with you，Dick deserves more respect and more care than DC puts in，even just for his popularity among comic readers. I mean the rebirth issue of Nightwing sold over 130k for God's sake.

----------


## Drako

Coming up in Batman. 

Art by @TonyDanielx2.

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...77258751741953

----------


## oasis1313

> If DC didn't like Abnett on "Titans" then, when they relaunched the book they wouldn't have kept Abnett.


Unless he's got some exclusive contract on it.  Either that, or they don't care what he does, he's considered a "name" creator (thanks to Andy Lanning).

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick just needs to get away from Abnett.  Give him to a writer who doesn't hate him.


Abnett has written Dick for more or less 50 issues (Earth2/Titans). Why does he keep writing Dick when he isn't good at it? Time to get a new writer.

----------


## Godlike13

Cause Dick’s the most popular Titan, so Dick was stuck there despite Abnett and his attempts to bury him. Why they allow him to continually bury Dick is what I don’t get.

----------


## oasis1313

> Cause Dick’s the most popular Titan, so Dick was stuck there despite Abnett and his attempts to bury him. Why they allow him to continually bury Dick is what I don’t get.


It sounds like being an Editor is a sweet gig--just rubber-stamp whatever your prized "creators" want to do and then go cash your paychecks.  Wouldn't we ALL love a job with great pay and no work?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Cause Dicks the most popular Titan, so Dick was stuck there despite Abnett and his attempts to bury him. Why they allow him to continually bury Dick is what I dont get.


My conclusion before was because he's not a priority character, but he's popular. Since he has enough fans to support him no matter what, they feel like they can afford to be neglectful. If he's not a priority but the fans can support him, they don't have to do anything.

----------


## Godlike13

> My conclusion before was because he's not a priority character, but he's popular. Since he has enough fans to support him no matter what, they feel like they can afford to be neglectful. If he's not a priority but the fans can support him, they don't have to do anything.


But then here comes a new direction that he's leading, while all the others are off to limbo.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But then here comes a new direction that he's leading, while all the others are off to limbo.


The direction follows Snyder's story, which DC gladly let because of all the hype and profit he brings them, but the execution was up to Abnett, who's in charge of Titans, just like how Seeley wrote the tie into Metal. 
As far as I can tell, all these writers basically let each other handle each job and leave them alone. A professional courtesy.

As for DC, they care enough to bring Titans as a group to the forefront since now they're tied to the popular Justice League but they don't care enough about the details, like how Nightwing is handled. They leave that to the writers.

----------


## Godlike13

But they care enough that Nightwing has to be there, despite what Abnett's actually writing and the story he's telling with the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

because he's popular. 
So they care enough to feature him, but not enough to be concerned with the details.

Titans if I remember correctly, the individual issues sell above Nightwing numbers, or at least around that. Above average. The reviews were/are also good. So as far as DC's concerned, Abnett is doing something right. So they leave him alone.

----------


## Godlike13

Which is why he needs to gtfo of there. Not just out from under Abnett, but out of that office.

----------


## Rac7d*

> My conclusion before was because he's not a priority character, but he's popular. Since he has enough fans to support him no matter what, they feel like they can afford to be neglectful. If he's not a priority but the fans can support him, they don't have to do anything.


who are the prioty chracters and why are they

----------


## oasis1313

> Abnett has written Dick for more or less 50 issues (Earth2/Titans). Why does he keep writing Dick when he isn't good at it? Time to get a new writer.


Doing a job you're no good at and getting a paycheck--it's called a sinecure.

----------


## chief12d

> who are the prioty chracters and why are they


Most of the Justice League, those who have had a strong presence in the DCAU or DCEU, and other platforms like video games. Which is kinda sad because from a sales standpoint Dick should be regarded in higher esteem by TPAB. But when he's consistently looked at as a 2nd rate Batman and not exactly growing into new roles (like the spy shtick) due to a traditionalist fan base, the direction will tend to be aimless and uninspiring.

----------


## BloodOps

Dick did nothing in the recent Titans issue besides scream at Donna

DONNA!

I should of kept the title dropped, won't be picking up the next issue.

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick did nothing in the recent Titans issue besides scream at Donna
> 
> DONNA!
> 
> I should of kept the title dropped, won't be picking up the next issue.


You forgot

STEEL!

Typical Abnett Nightwing. Bark orders. Be mopey. Try to please Batman. Tumblr can write a better Dick Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dick did nothing in the recent Titans issue besides scream at Donna
> 
> DONNA!
> 
> I should of kept the title dropped, won't be picking up the next issue.


I'm okay with yelling at Donna.  I yell every time she gets a new origin.

----------


## L.H.

Someone is stille reading Titans? I just wish to forgot it exists.





> I'm okay with yelling at Donna.  I yell every time she gets a new origin.


Yeah, me too

----------


## Restingvoice

> who are the priority characters and why are they


You can tell from which character they keep pushing with or without fans support. They're also featured in important events or promo materials. 

So Superman, Batman, Damian, Harley, Joker, and so on...

The ones without fans/readers support eventually stopped after they see that there's no money they can get from it. Joker's Daughter in New 52 is one. They keep pushing her, putting her in Bat family event, placing her Suicide Squad, even the Outlaws, but fans keep saying no, and eventually they give up. 

Note that there are different degrees of prioritizing. Dick, for example, is still considered more important than the rest of the Rebirth Titans and Robins except Damian. 

As for why some are prioritized and some don't... and why there are different degrees of push, the only ones I can tell are the personal bias that people working at DC have revealed.

Example, in an interview for New Super-Man where they talk about Asian characters, Gene Luen Yang revealed the creators of Cassandra Cain had to fight with editorials to allow an Asian Batgirl, because for people at DC, Batgirl is a redhead called Barbara Gordon.

----------


## Aahz

> You can tell from which character they keep pushing with or without fans support. They're also featured in important events or promo materials.
> 
> So Superman, Batman, Damian, Harley, Joker, and so on...


Dick is featured as much as Damian (or maybe even a little bit more) imo.

----------


## Godlike13

> You can tell from which character they keep pushing with or without fans support. They're also featured in important events or promo materials. 
> 
> So Superman, Batman, Damian, Harley, Joker, and so on...
> 
> The ones without fans/readers support eventually stopped after they see that there's no money they can get from it. Joker's Daughter in New 52 is one. They keep pushing her, putting her in Bat family event, placing her Suicide Squad, even the Outlaws, but fans keep saying no, and eventually they give up. 
> 
> Note that there are different degrees of prioritizing. Dick, for example, is still considered more important than the rest of the Rebirth Titans and Robins except Damian. 
> 
> As for why some are prioritized and some don't... and why there are different degrees of push, the only ones I can tell are the personal bias that people working at DC have revealed.
> ...


For the larger DC i understand Dick is not a priority, though of course they nonetheless want him to carry a bimonthly, but whatever. What i don't understand is that how is it though when it comes to Titans he's not a priority or protected in any regard. This is what baffles me. They acknowledge that he's one of the few Titans that actually draws, and don't hesitate to exploit that. Him and Donna are literally the only remaining Titans that carried into this new direction, and Donna was actually kind of a surprise. So where's the logic in doing things like using him and Wally to put over Roy Harper who's on his way off to limbo in Titans, and letting Abnett mock the character on a conceptual level in in front of the Titans audience for no other reason then just because. I'd be news to me if he's considered more important than the rest of the Rebirth Titans, because that certainly wasn't evident in the Rebirth Titans series. 
It makes no sense to me. He's one of the few things from the Titans that currently works. Why are they trying to tear that down rather then building upon it. I don't get, i just don't get. Now obviously im a huge Nightwing fan, and obviously bias, but still.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is featured, but he doesn't have a high standing in DC's echelon. What's the point of being there if he is treated as 2nd class, a sidekick? Isn't the point of Nightwing to stand with equal terms with the likes of Batman and Superman. Not under their shadow, but beside them.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Dick is featured, but he doesn't have a high standing in DC's echelon. What's the point of being there if he is treated as 2nd class, a sidekick? Isn't the point of Nightwing to stand with equal terms with the likes of Batman and Superman. Not under their shadow, but beside them.


Let's be real. The point of NW is really cause Robin needed a change I reckon.

----------


## Aahz

> Isn't the point of Nightwing to stand with equal terms with the likes of Batman and Superman. Not under their shadow, but beside them.


Batman and Superman are also often used to promote other characters. 

And as long as a character doesn't sell the amount of books Batman and Superman sell, he will never have the same priority as them. Nightwing is at best the level of of the "non trinity" Justice League members.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Batman and Superman are also often used to promote other characters. 
> 
> And as long as a character doesn't sell the amount of books Batman and Superman sell, he will never have the same priority as them. Nightwing is at best the level of of the "non trinity" Justice League members.


Nightwing sold better than some of the JL members. He was only behind the Trinity，Flash and Harley in Rebirth. But that's not the point. The point is，how could Nightwing sell as well as Batman and Superman when DC only regards him as a B-lister？Even when a high-profiled writer like Mark Waid asked for Nightwing himself they shut him down.

----------


## Aahz

> Nightwing sold better than some of the JL members. He was only behind the Trinity，Flash and Harley in Rebirth. But that's not the point. The point is，how could Nightwing sell as well as Batman and Superman when DC only regards him as a B-lister？Even when a high-profiled writer like Mark Waid asked for Nightwing himself they shut him down.


That puts him somewhere between Flash and Green Lantern and I don't think that that much more is realisticly possible. I don't think that you can get any charcter to sell on Batman levels unless you make him Batman (or unless they completely ruin Batman ...).

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That puts him somewhere between Flash and Green Lantern and I don't think that that much more is realisticly possible. I don't think that you can get any charcter to sell on Batman levels unless you make him Batman (or unless they completely ruin Batman ...).


But Nightwing is never in a position between Flash and Green Lantern except the sales number. He never got as much resources or promotion as these two or Harley. I guess thats what annoyes me.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s why the move back to double ship confuses me. While I like it, what excactly is DC doing with him that might help him sustain that. Part of me wonders if it might be a burn off.

----------


## Lazurus33

TITANS #24 Brings in New Art Team

https://www.newsarama.com/40785-tita...-art-team.html

----------


## Ascended

> But Nightwing is never in a position between Flash and Green Lantern except the sales number. He never got as much resources or promotion as these two or Harley. I guess thats what annoyes me.


Well, the sales figure is all that matters to DC, at the end of the day. And if Nightwing can outsell the majority of the line with no effort being put into the marketing, DC is gonna call that a win.

DC doesn't consider Nightwing anything more than an accessory to a larger IP. And he's successful. The fact that he could be more (and arguably used to be) with a bit of effort doesn't matter to DC. That would require investment and effort, and DC has other IP's they can push that either need that effort, or will generate greater returns for what gets put into them. 

Nightwing is in that "good enough" category. He could be more. So much more. But he sells pretty solidly with no effort, so that's all he's gonna get.

----------


## Aahz

> But Nightwing is never in a position between Flash and Green Lantern except the sales number. He never got as much resources or promotion as these two or Harley. I guess thats what annoyes me.


Are Flash and Green Lantern really getting much promotion.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## WonderNight

> Are Flash and Green Lantern really getting much promotion.


Compared to nightwing who sell just as well as them? yes. yes they do. As long as DC continues to view nightwing a sidekick this is going to as good as it gets for him.

I just find it funny when fans who ask for nightwing to return to his early 2000's status quo (the one that almost got him killed off twice and replaced with jason and harper row) wonders why DC doesn't do anything with him.

----------


## Ascended

> Are Flash and Green Lantern really getting much promotion.


I'd say so, yeah. Lantern had a movie a few years ago with a new one in the works, Flash was in the JL film, is supposedly getting his own solo movie, and has the CW show. Plus they're both always front and center in Events and the Justice League title/s and any cartoons DC throws out there. Both have had a lot of content related to them in the DCU Online video game.

Nightwing doesn't usually get any of that. Or at least not as much of it. He's been in *some* cartoons. He's been in a few video games. If we count his time as Robin his appearances go up a fair amount.....but that's not pushing the Nightwing brand, image, or logo. He doesn't usually have a major role in any Events, and the only team he's on has been panned critically since Johns left the book over a decade ago. 

DC definitely doesn't push Nightwing as hard as they do any of the Big 7. He sells about as well as Barry and Hal do anyway.

My question is whether or not DC is holding back with the character on purpose. Do they realize he could be more profitable and popular? If so, why aren't they investing in that potential? Are they afraid that Dick will outshine their brooding golden boy? If so.....why? They had no problem milking the Harley IP for all it was worth and last I knew she moved more merchandise than Bruce and Clark put together, and outsold Clark in comics as well (though that's probably changed since Bendis?). 

I know Didio isn't the biggest fan of Dick Grayson and at one point wanted to kill him off in Infinite Crisis. But he can't be so blinded by his own bias that he's missing the potential revenue Nightwing is capable of generating, can he?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick is featured as much as Damian (or maybe even a little bit more) imo.


Maybe. I only pay attention to the most recent one, where they're really pushing Damian as main character in movies, make comics starring him, including him in Justice League...




> For the larger DC i understand Dick is not a priority, though of course they nonetheless want him to carry a bimonthly, but whatever. What i don't understand is that how is it though when it comes to Titans he's not a priority or protected in any regard. This is what baffles me. They acknowledge that he's one of the few Titans that actually draws, and don't hesitate to exploit that. Him and Donna are literally the only remaining Titans that carried into this new direction, and Donna was actually kind of a surprise. So where's the logic in doing things like using him and Wally to put over Roy Harper who's on his way off to limbo in Titans, and letting Abnett mock the character on a conceptual level in in front of the Titans audience for no other reason then just because. I'd be news to me if he's considered more important than the rest of the Rebirth Titans, because that certainly wasn't evident in the Rebirth Titans series. 
> It makes no sense to me. He's one of the few things from the Titans that currently works. Why are they trying to tear that down rather then building upon it. I don't get, i just don't get. Now obviously im a huge Nightwing fan, and obviously bias, but still.


That's just it. The only thing I can conclude is they really don't care as long as he brings in money, and they don't care because there's a personal bias.




> Dick is featured, but he doesn't have a high standing in DC's echelon. What's the point of being there if he is treated as 2nd class, a sidekick? Isn't the point of Nightwing to stand with equal terms with the likes of Batman and Superman. Not under their shadow, but beside them.


No, the point of Nightwing creation was... if I'm not mistaken... they felt Dick has outgrown the Robin mantle, and they were prepping a new kid, so they created a new identity for him, and that's it. There was, as far as I know, never any intention to make him stand equal to Batman and Superman. 




> Nightwing sold better than some of the JL members. He was only behind the Trinity，Flash and Harley in Rebirth. But that's not the point. The point is，how could Nightwing sell as well as Batman and Superman when DC only regards him as a B-lister？Even when a high-profiled writer like Mark Waid asked for Nightwing himself they shut him down.


There's that difference between what fans like or want, even what the writers like or want, compared to what DC think the character should be. 




> My question is whether or not DC is holding back with the character on purpose. Do they realize he could be more profitable and popular? If so, why aren't they investing in that potential? Are they afraid that Dick will outshine their brooding golden boy? If so.....why? They had no problem milking the Harley IP for all it was worth and last I knew she moved more merchandise than Bruce and Clark put together, and outsold Clark in comics as well (though that's probably changed since Bendis?).


I have talked about this before. The reason they're not afraid of pushing Harley is because, on top of possible personal preference, is because she occupies an anti-hero spot while Joker is firmly on the villain side. Harley isn't pushed to be a better villain than Joker, she's pushed to be a hero. A different category, and she's different enough from Batman and Superman to not take the spotlight from their role. They can stand side by side. 

Nightwing, on the other hand, is firmly under Batman family brand, and has the combined strength and personality of both characters. He has Superman's kindness, hopefulness, and Batman's detective and leadership skills. He can be dark or cheerful, soft or firm. Let's say he's pushed as hard as Harley, this young and sexy detective and leader who's more fun than Batman but equally smart and capable when they allow it, he has the potential overshadow both of them.

----------


## Restingvoice

Kenneth Rocafort Nightwing #48 variant

Dh6vdBsVAAADXbQ.jpg

----------


## Slim Shady

I forgot how much I liked Rocafort. I was enjoying the JR variants too though.

----------


## Ascended

> I have talked about this before. The reason they're not afraid of pushing Harley is because, on top of possible personal preference, is because she occupies an anti-hero spot while Joker is firmly on the villain side. Harley isn't pushed to be a better villain than Joker, she's pushed to be a hero. A different category, and she's different enough from Batman and Superman to not take the spotlight from their role. They can stand side by side. 
> 
> Nightwing, on the other hand, is firmly under Batman family brand, and has the combined strength and personality of both characters. He has Superman's kindness, hopefulness, and Batman's detective and leadership skills. He can be dark or cheerful, soft or firm. Let's say he's pushed as hard as Harley, this young and sexy detective and leader who's more fun than Batman but equally smart and capable when they allow it, he has the potential overshadow both of them.


My theory runs along similar lines.....but I question whether that makes good business sense. I struggle to believe that even a super-high quality Nightwing would be that much of a threat to Batman's sales. I'd almost think if Dick was going to steal sales from anyone, it'd be Spider-Man and Daredevil. Is having too many A-listers ever *really* a problem? Because it's a problem I'd like to have. I can see the business theory behind keeping Nightwing from competing with Batman....but I don't know if that actually tracks.

And if the issue is that Nightwing is too similar to Batman.....well, that makes no sense at all. Dick has a long history beyond Gotham, and it's DC, not the fans, who are pretending like that doesn't matter. And there's also the spy angle, which seemed popular and would make Dick a different kind of hero than either Clark or Bats, dive into a niche no other Big 2 book is really exploring currently, and flesh out a vague corner of the DCU. If that doesn't sound like a win, I don't know what does.

The only conclusion that makes any sense to me is that DC management don't have faith in the character and/or can't find a viable angle to promote him from. If so....whatevs. Comics need passion behind the pages. If DC doesn't have any passion for Dick, or they can't find an avenue they think will work, I'd rather they ignore him like they have been than risk something stupid and screw him up. But I'd really like to know what DC's policy is, and why they have it.

----------


## Aahz

> I'd say so, yeah. Lantern had a movie a few years ago with a new one in the works, Flash was in the JL film, is supposedly getting his own solo movie, and has the CW show. Plus they're both always front and center in Events and the Justice League title/s and any cartoons DC throws out there. Both have had a lot of content related to them in the DCU Online video game.
> 
> Nightwing doesn't usually get any of that. Or at least not as much of it. He's been in *some* cartoons. He's been in a few video games. If we count his time as Robin his appearances go up a fair amount.....but that's not pushing the Nightwing brand, image, or logo. He doesn't usually have a major role in any Events, and the only team he's on has been panned critically since Johns left the book over a decade ago.


He has Titans and the Young Justice show coming soon and apparently also a movie in the works.

And the effect of movies on comics sales seems anyway not that big.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Thats why the move back to double ship confuses me. While I like it, what excactly is DC doing with him that might help him sustain that. Part of me wonders if it might be a burn off.


Maybe Percy pitches a really good storyline they think it would sell. Maybe some of the rumors from 4chan are true，Nightwing will move back to monthly a few months later.
The cynic in me says it could be Didio's method to get Nightwing's book cancelled ASAP.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I know Didio isn't the biggest fan of Dick Grayson and at one point wanted to kill him off in Infinite Crisis. But he can't be so blinded by his own bias that he's missing the potential revenue Nightwing is capable of generating, can he?


Well，Didio did kill Wally when he was the more popular Flash and the book sold well...

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> He has Titans and the Young Justice show coming soon and apparently also a movie in the works.
> 
> And the effect of movies on comics sales seems anyway not that big.


GL is going to have Grant Morrison. Flash has been under the spotlight since Rebirth.

----------


## oasis1313

> GL is going to have Grant Morrison. Flash has been under the spotlight since Rebirth.


Grant Morrison is coming back ????!!!!!!!  Will it be Hal or the two newbies?  I'd start buying the book for the first time since Neal Adams quit drawing it.

Anyway--back to Dick, who is far more important as far as I'm concerned--I'd say the more exposure, the better.  I don't want any more of Didio's four-colored homicidal tendencies where Dick is concerned.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Kenneth Rocafort Nightwing #48 variant
> 
> Dh6vdBsVAAADXbQ.jpg


Hes one of the  few superheroes i belive actualy fills his suit

----------


## oasis1313

> Hes one of the  few superheroes i belive actualy fills his suit


AND he has a bunch of mini-me's here, too.  Always wished Rocafort would draw a regular book with Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

I like Rocafort, but that’s a weird cover. What’s with the mini Nightwings background lol.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Kenneth Rocafort Nightwing #48 variant
> 
> Dh6vdBsVAAADXbQ.jpg


Rocafort should be drawing the Nightwing book (if they aren't going to give him a LSH series to draw!)

----------


## Vinsanity

> I know Didio isn't the biggest fan of Dick Grayson and at one point wanted to kill him off in Infinite Crisis. But he can't be so blinded by his own bias that he's missing the potential revenue Nightwing is capable of generating, can he?


I thought Didio wanted to kill Dick Grayson because there wasn't nothing more at that time they could do with the character.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Grant Morrison is coming back ????!!!!!!!  Will it be Hal or the two newbies?  I'd start buying the book for the first time since Neal Adams quit drawing it.
> 
> Anyway--back to Dick, who is far more important as far as I'm concerned--I'd say the more exposure, the better.  I don't want any more of Didio's four-colored homicidal tendencies where Dick is concerned.


Rumor has it that Morrison will be writing a 12-issue run about Hal exploring the Multiverse.

----------


## Godlike13

> I thought Didio wanted to kill Dick Grayson because there wasn't nothing more at that time they could do with the character.


He thought he was redundant and had to go.

----------


## oasis1313

Remember your luggage, Dan.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> He thought he was redundant and had to go.


Dan Didio：You are not Batman，you are not Robin，and you are not edgy. Out.

----------


## yohyoi

People keep on telling me Nightwing has no Joker. But he has one and it's far stronger than any DC villain. DiDio.

----------


## Godlike13

Hey, he admitted he was wrong though. That should count for something.

----------


## Ascended

> Hey, he admitted he was wrong though. That should count for something.


It should.

Didio, based largely on his personal opinion, thought killing Dick would enrich the larger narratives and get rid of some dead weight. Obviously I disagree with his opinion, but it's nothing more than two people who disagree on a character and there's plenty of heroes I'd kill off if I had my way that other fans adore. Steph Brown for example, doesn't seem to offer anything that other characters don't do a better job of offering. If I needed a sacrifice for a story she'd be at the top of my list. But I know she's got fans who love her. The situation with Dick and Didio is no different, except Didio actually has the authority to make good on that choice.

From all accounts, Didio changed his position fairly quickly after talking it over with some other people. Good business sense overruled his personal opinion (as it should) and Nightwing didn't get any closer to death than that.

Of all the things Didio has done wrong, of all the missteps he's made, wanting to kill Dick (and only for like, five minutes!) isn't one of them.

----------


## Pohzee

Didio gave us Grayson, so he's more friend than foe in my book.

----------


## byrd156

> Didio gave us Grayson, so he's more friend than foe in my book.


He didn't really give us Grayson that was Seeley and co. Didn't Didio want Dick to "die" and reinvent himself after Forever Evil with a blonde look?

----------


## byrd156

> He has Titans and the Young Justice show coming soon and apparently also a movie in the works.
> 
> And the effect of movies on comics sales seems anyway not that big.


I feel that Dick is going to get a huge push soon. As long as the portrayals are good (mostly worried about the Titans show) it will effect the comics. Other media is seemingly the only place now to push characters into spotlights.

----------


## yohyoi

There are some awesome Nightwing art and commissions on Twitter. I'm thinking of posting it, so people here could see it.

----------


## oasis1313

> He thought he was redundant and had to go. [/img][/url]


I never understood why Didio thought Dick Grayson was redundant and Tim Dreck wasn't.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I never understood why Didio thought Dick Grayson was redundant and Tim Dreck wasn't.


Teen Titans was selling well at that time I think and also Tim was still Robin. 

Reading Red Hood under Lobdell and I love it but it sucks that they don't push much for NW in the comics. The work that Lobdell did shows that if you take risks and have fun with the character, it can turn out really well. We got that with Grayson but that's it.

----------


## yohyoi

> Teen Titans was selling well at that time I think and also Tim was still Robin. 
> 
> Reading Red Hood under Lobdell and I love it but it sucks that they don't push much for NW in the comics. The work that Lobdell did shows that if you take risks and have fun with the character, it can turn out really well. We got that with Grayson but that's it.


Ehhh... This is one of the few good Red Hood series (or maybe the only one if we remove Batman: Under the Red Hood). I love it, but people tend to forget the past two horrible series, which is probably for the best. But whatever, it's recent and people are forgetful. For heaven's sake, Dick starred in NTT, the gold standard of teenage/young adult superhero team. Saved DC from bankrupt. Plus a plethora of other great runs.

Nightwing was a constant seller for DC. Decades of issues. No cancellation. DiDio didn't care for that. It's always about making Batman look young to the readers. Because to DC all Hell would break lose if he isn't.

Edit: Red Hood Rebirth is doing great narratively, but it's doing bad in sales. If this is the push we want, Nightwing would be in DiDio's hands faster than the Flash. The slower one. Barry. Yeah, I said it.

----------


## yohyoi

Separate topic but I miss New Super-Man. Kenan Kong was my Rebirth highlight. It's sad sales does not correspond with quality.

*Looks at Harley*

----------


## Claude

> He didn't really give us Grayson that was Seeley and co. Didn't Didio want Dick to "die" and reinvent himself after Forever Evil with a blonde look?


Other way around, I think - "Grayson" was Didio's idea, so Blonde Nightwing in "Batman Eternal" and under Tynion didn't happen.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I never understood why Didio thought Dick Grayson was redundant and Tim Dreck wasn't.


Tim had the Robin role at the time, and Damian wasn't around yet. He was filling a classic role and had more of a purpose than Dick did as the Robin who graduated but didn't graduate enough to be an A-lister. Obviously, once Damian showed up all that changed.

I can't say that I disagree with Didio that Nightwing, at least the way the identity is used most of the time, is redundant. Killing Dick is not the solution though and I'm glad he changed his mind. I wonder if Morrison played a part in convincing him, did he tell him that he eventually wanted Dick to fill in as Batman?

----------


## Rakiduam

> Other way around, I think - "Grayson" was Didio's idea, so Blonde Nightwing in "Batman Eternal" and under Tynion didn't happen.


For what I remember, we got very lucky with Grayson. The editorial idea, not sure if it was Didio, was Dick to be a spy, from there they asked for pitchs using that concept, King´s liked to someone, Seeley's liked to someone else so they were asked if they could do something together.

I think it in the end it is just a business, they would go with whatever direction they think they can make more money. Grayson was fantastic but fans keep complaining about the good old Dixon's times, easy to asume it would seel more and be a secure bet, they went that direction.

If at some point, some one cames with a more bankable pitch, either for the talent involved or the trendthey think they can explote, they will go that way.

----------


## Pohzee

> He didn't really give us Grayson that was Seeley and co. Didn't Didio want Dick to "die" and reinvent himself after Forever Evil with a blonde look?


Bat Office wanted blond Nightwing written by Tynion. We dodged a double bullet there when Didio pushed for secret agent Grayson. Bat Office assigned Seeley. Didio assigned King. Thank you double Didio.

----------


## Godlike13

I believe the office was in transition at the time. The previous head editor hired Seeley, the new one hired King. And i assume Geoff Johns had something to do with the direction, but that a guess on my part.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

From what I've heard Mark Doyle, the group editor of bat office at that time, liked part of Seeley's pitch and part of King's pitch. So he asked them if they can co-work on the book. 
And it turned out to be fantastic.

----------


## Pohzee

I recall hearing that King and Seeley were hired seperately by two different offices not communicating properly. It was a happy accident.

----------


## oasis1313

> Bat Office wanted blond Nightwing written by Tynion. We dodged a double bullet there when Didio pushed for secret agent Grayson. Bat Office assigned Seeley. Didio assigned King. Thank you double Didio.


The thought of Nightwing written by Tynion makes me ill.

----------


## Vinsanity

> The thought of Nightwing written by Tynion makes me ill.


That would be....somewhat interesting. I guess

----------


## Badou

> I believe the office was in transition at the time. The previous head editor hired Seeley, the new one hired King. And i assume Geoff Johns had something to do with the direction, but that a guess on my part.


I very much doubt that Johns had any involvement. He just used him for Forever Evil and then left him for the Bat office to deal with afterwards, but the Bat office was in transition like you said and they were also dealing with Snyder's story and Batman Eternal at the same time and had no idea how to fit in the whole mess of Dick's identity being revealed with it all. 

They were just going to have Tynion write a blonde Nightwing and do their best to manage the Forever Evil fallout along side their other plans, but late in production they scraped it and decided to remove Dick from the Batman stories altogether. They had that original Tynion Nightwing #30 completely drawn that was supposed to set up his run, as well as blonde Dick in that Batman Eternal Thanksgiving promo image, but they decided to remove him by having him act as a secret agent on a mission for Batman as an excuse for him not being in the ongoing Batman stories in order to avoid dealing with his identity stuff. So they decided to ask a bunch of different writers to pitch stories about Dick as a secret agent and they ended up with Seeley and King working together. They then had to quickly throw together a new Nightwing #30 to set up the new run and it had like 3 different art teams doing 3 different stories to get it out on time.

----------


## Pohzee

> That would be....somewhat interesting. I guess


The problem is... it wouldn't be.

----------


## Restingvoice

Marcus To's cover for NIGHTWING/MAGILLA GORILLA SPECIAL #1

DiP7ku6VQAAIUkj.jpg

When a famous Hollywood talent agent is found brutally murdered, suspicion and evidence seem to point to his most famous client, Oscar winning actor Magilla Gorilla. Dick Grayson, already in Tinseltown to meet with said agent, senses something suspicious. Donning his Nightwing costume and joining forces with the simian suspect, hes got one night to prove that this monkey doesnt belong in a cage.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Marcus To's cover for NIGHTWING/MAGILLA GORILLA SPECIAL #1
> 
> DiP7ku6VQAAIUkj.jpg
> 
> When a famous Hollywood talent agent is found brutally murdered, suspicion and evidence seem to point to his most famous client, Oscar winning actor Magilla Gorilla. Dick Grayson, already in Tinseltown to meet with said agent, senses something suspicious. Donning his Nightwing costume and joining forces with the simian suspect, he’s got one night to prove that this monkey doesn’t belong in a cage.


Hey the finger stripes are back :Big Grin:

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 1

01.jpg02.jpg03.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 2

04.jpg05.jpg06.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 3

07.jpg08.jpg09.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 4

10.jpg11.jpg12.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 5

13.jpg14.jpg15.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 6

16.jpg17.jpg18.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 7

19.jpg20.jpg21.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 8

22.jpg23.jpg24.jpg

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 9

25.jpg26.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

Who drew this?

----------


## dietrich

> Marcus To's cover for NIGHTWING/MAGILLA GORILLA SPECIAL #1
> 
> Attachment 68298
> 
> When a famous Hollywood talent agent is found brutally murdered, suspicion and evidence seem to point to his most famous client, Oscar winning actor Magilla Gorilla. Dick Grayson, already in Tinseltown to meet with said agent, senses something suspicious. Donning his Nightwing costume and joining forces with the simian suspect, hes got one night to prove that this monkey doesnt belong in a cage.


Dick digging the old-timey Detecting tools.  :Smile: 

Why is Dick meeting with a Hollywood Agent?

----------


## dietrich

> Nightwing #30 that was scrapped 9
> 
> 25.jpg26.jpg


Shame this was scrapped. Looks like it would have been interesting.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tynion posted this on Twitter last year.

----------


## Godlike13

Thank fing god it was scrapped. I don’t need to read Tynion try to bury Dick anymore then I already have.

----------


## dietrich

> Thank fing god it was scrapped. I don’t need to read Tynion try to bury Dick anymore then I already have.


Oh was it written by Tynion? Not so much a shame it was scrapped more like Lucky escape then.

----------


## yohyoi

> Marcus To's cover for NIGHTWING/MAGILLA GORILLA SPECIAL #1
> 
> Attachment 68298
> 
> When a famous Hollywood talent agent is found brutally murdered, suspicion and evidence seem to point to his most famous client, Oscar winning actor Magilla Gorilla. Dick Grayson, already in Tinseltown to meet with said agent, senses something suspicious. Donning his Nightwing costume and joining forces with the simian suspect, hes got one night to prove that this monkey doesnt belong in a cage.


Quirky crossovers are my thing. Nice breather away from the main series.

----------


## Vinsanity

> The problem is... it wouldn't be.


Was just being nice lol

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Dick digging the old-timey Detecting tools. 
> 
> Why is Dick meeting with a Hollywood Agent?


Jim and Juan finally get the movie they deserve :Cool:

----------


## Lazurus33

> Who drew this?


MEGHAN HETRICK

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/06...it-was-binned/

----------


## oasis1313

> Quirky crossovers are my thing. Nice breather away from the main series.


Looks like tons of fun.  I can't resist gorillas.

----------


## Slim Shady

Thanks to everybody that recommended Seeleys first arc with Raptor and the owls, just read it and really enjoyed it. One of the better overall Nightwing stories Ive read in awhile. I think Raptor has the potential to be a main antagonist for Nightwing, right there with Blockbuster. I havent read anything between that first arc and Percys current run, so maybe they did other stuff with the character and Ive missed it, but I would definitely like to see him pop up more in the title.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, Seeley brings him back with his last arc and kind of leaves with a potential bombshell.

----------


## Slim Shady

> Ya, Seeley brings him back with his last arc and kind of leaves with a potential bombshell.


Cool deal, guess I'll check that one out too.

Maybe Percy will revisit it once he get his feet under him and his already planned stuff out the way

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/neukgol

----------


## dietrich

> https://twitter.com/neukgol


The best thing about this is that Dick has being both a stripper and a cop.


Hurrah for Fan service  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> Jim and Juan finally get the movie they deserve


The real Dynamic Duo  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Confuzzled

For all of Dick's "ZOMG HE'S SO HOTTT" reputation, it's always funny when artists draw Jason like his near identical twin. And Dick's fangirls and fanboys don't look twice at Jason.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> For all of Dick's "ZOMG HE'S SO HOTTT" reputation, it's always funny when artists draw Jason like his near identical twin. And Dick's fangirls and fanboys don't look twice at Jason.


He's just not Dick I guess.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> For all of Dick's "ZOMG HE'S SO HOTTT" reputation, it's always funny when artists draw Jason like his near identical twin. And Dick's fangirls and fanboys don't look twice at Jason.


Just as Batman said in Hush，Dick Grayson was born to be in the center ring :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedQueen

> For all of Dick's "ZOMG HE'S SO HOTTT" reputation, it's always funny when artists draw Jason like his near identical twin. And Dick's fangirls and fanboys don't look twice at Jason.


I think it speaks to Dick's personality. I mean they could be twins, but I'm still gonna pick Dick.



Honestly his name is both a blessing and curse. You can make Dick jokes but then I'm always paranoid how I word things when I talk about him because it always sounds like a double entredre.

----------


## DragonPiece

Thoughts on Dick's portrayl in the titans trailer? I feel like they got a good actor, but I'm not a fan of him saying eff Batman. I get he's young and this is a mature series, but he's always such a positive/charming character in the comics, it's weird to see him be that dark.

Especially weird considering jason todd is supposed to show up in the first season later on.

----------


## dan12456

TITANS TRAILER SPOILERS





Did I just watch Dick kill a bunch of people then say "fuck Batman"? Please tell me I didn't.

----------


## Drako

> Thoughts on Dick's portrayl in the titans trailer? I feel like they got a good actor, but I'm not a fan of him saying eff Batman. I get he's young and this is a mature series, but he's always such a positive/charming character in the comics, it's weird to see him be that dark.
> 
> Especially weird considering jason todd is supposed to show up in the first season later on.


Not always. I remember him having some dark times.

He almost punched a fake joker to death.




> TITANS TRAILER SPOILERS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I just watch Dick kill a bunch of people then say "fuck Batman"? Please tell me I didn't.


You can see they ducking in the same scene.

----------


## Armor of God

This guy belongs in Snyder's DCEU.

----------


## OWL45

Thought the Titans trailer was awesome and Dick was bad ass. I look forward to when it starts.

----------


## Miles To Go

That trailer was pure cringe. I'd rather watch Teen Titans Go than it.

----------


## Armor of God

Yep even ignoring the swearing and violence the trailer was pretty I dunno so New 52. Terrible designs for Raven, Starfire and Beast Boy, doesn't bother telling you the premise and tries so hard to be edgy. I really want this to succeed but damn it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'm fine with Dick Grayson as he's portrayed in the trailer so long as they don't daddle on the "Starfire gets Robin to be less of a dick" bits that frequently showed up in the cartoon.

----------


## Badou

I thought Dick was fine. Being brutal was expected, especially after all the leaks about how the characters would be portrayed. I still hate the origin of Dick having a falling out with Bruce and/or him firing Dick. Was never a fan of it, but not much we can do about it. The violence didn't really bug me that much because I guess it will be used in context of Dick deciding he doesn't want to be a hero anymore given what he was becoming and retires. Maybe in his second go as a hero he will be more controlled. 

Still, Dick isn't close to being what I'm most worried about with the show. Raven I thought was okay, but I have real concerns for BB and Starfire and how the villains will be used.

----------


## Aioros22

> For all of Dick's "ZOMG HE'S SO HOTTT" reputation, it's always funny when artists draw Jason like his near identical twin. And Dick's fangirls and fanboys don't look twice at Jason.


Weird of you to say when that artist didn`t fell in the trap of drawing them as identical twins.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Drako

More Dick Grayson!!

*SDCC: DC Announces New Titles for YA Imprints DC Zoom, DC Ink*

Dick Grayson: Lost Carnival will be written by Michael Moreci (Roche Limit)

https://www.cbr.com/sdcc-dc-ink-dc-z...ampaign=CBR-TW

----------


## dietrich

> More Dick Grayson!!
> 
> *SDCC: DC Announces New Titles for YA Imprints DC Zoom, DC Ink*
> 
> Dick Grayson: Lost Carnival will be written by Michael Moreci (Roche Limit)
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/sdcc-dc-ink-dc-z...ampaign=CBR-TW


Nice.

I didn't mind the violence in the Titans trailer. It's 2018 today's Robin is a different sort of animal. 

I did however think that everyone looked crap aside from Dick

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

F bomb dropping Dick and stands on a guy's neck. Ugh.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> TITANS TRAILER SPOILERS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I just watch Dick kill a bunch of people then say "fuck Batman"? Please tell me I didn't.


Remember Catwoman In Name Only. Dick In Name Only or pretend it's Jason Todd ; )

----------


## RedBird

> F bomb dropping Dick and stands on a guy's neck. Ugh.


Yeah...I mean personally I'm not too fussed with the F bomb here, he's angry that's understandable. But did he break that mans neck? Did he kill that man?

----------


## Drako

> Yeah...I mean personally I'm not too fussed with the F bomb here, he's angry that's understandable. But did he break that mans neck? Did he kill that man?


First of all, let's make this clear. Dick didn't fire the gun, it was the goon. He is holding the guy. You can see this if you put the video in slow motion on Youtube.

https://media.giphy.com/media/1URiIw...dndN/giphy.gif

And he also didn't step on the guy neck, it was his jaw. Not very Grayson like, but less brutal i guess.

https://media.giphy.com/media/fZYruj...ould/giphy.gif

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> More Dick Grayson!!
> 
> *SDCC: DC Announces New Titles for YA Imprints DC Zoom, DC Ink*
> 
> Dick Grayson: Lost Carnival will be written by Michael Moreci (Roche Limit)
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/sdcc-dc-ink-dc-z...ampaign=CBR-TW


Good. I liked this guy's Tec#982.

----------


## RedBird

> First of all, let's make this clear. Dick didn't fire the gun, it was the goon. He is holding the guy. You can see this if you put the video in slow motion on Youtube.
> 
> https://media.giphy.com/media/1URiIw...dndN/giphy.gif
> 
> And he also didn't step on the guy neck, it was his jaw. Not very Grayson like, but less brutal i guess.
> 
> https://media.giphy.com/media/fZYruj...ould/giphy.gif


Oh nah, I didn't have any problem with any of the other violence anyways, and yeah, it was obvious that the goon was firing the gun.
But I gotta say if the intention was to imply that he was breaking the mans jaw instead of the neck it could have been better presented. Seeing a mans head turn with a cracking noise usually only ever is meant to imply one certain outcome. (Though perhaps that was the point and maybe it was meant to be intentionally misleading considering the rest of the 'edgy' tone of this trailer? *shrug) Thanks for the breakdown though, I mean, assuming your suggestion of the jaw break is correct, I do feel a bit better that they aren't making Dick out to be a full blown killer.

----------


## Frontier

> Thoughts on Dick's portrayl in the titans trailer? I feel like they got a good actor, but I'm not a fan of him saying eff Batman. I get he's young and this is a mature series, but he's always such a positive/charming character in the comics, it's weird to see him be that dark.
> 
> Especially weird considering jason todd is supposed to show up in the first season later on.


The "@#$% Batman" line felt a little too try-hard for me. 

And I know Dick can be brutal sometimes but that just didn't really look like how Robin fights to me, at least Dick's Robin. 

But I think Dick's relationship with Rachel/Raven will bring out the positive qualities we usually associate with him.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, reading more I'm a bit put off by their version of Dick. Seems he and Batgirl are on really bad terms and he even resents Kid Flash maybe if that rumor is true because he is close with his mentor. Stuff like that always puts me off. It does feel like they are taking a lot of influences from the DCAU Dick and I hope that doesn't mean they will go with a Batgirl/Batman romance in this as a source for angst.

----------


## Godlike13

It was a little dark and overly edgy, but whatever. I’m still watching it. Dick could be an angsty Dick in the NTT days.

----------


## joybeans

> Yeah, reading more I'm a bit put off by their version of Dick. Seems he and Batgirl are on really bad terms and he even resents Kid Flash maybe if that rumor is true because he is close with his mentor. Stuff like that always puts me off. It does feel like they are taking a lot of influences from the DCAU Dick and I hope that doesn't mean they will go with a Batgirl/Batman romance in this as a source for angst.


Where are you reading this?

----------


## Jabare

All my fears have been put to rest good casting on Dick Grayson

----------


## Badou

> Where are you reading this?


Can't find any credible sources. It was just rumored leaks I guess.

----------


## joybeans

Sounds like the typical speculation/fanfiction, then.

----------


## Frontier

I dunno, I think we would've known by now if Batgirl and Kid Flash were in this.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I checked Twitter on my break in work, I was really worried because my feed was solely negative reactions and, sadly, fans begging people to stop making racist comments about Anna Diop. I watched the trailer just now. It's not as bad as I expected. I like that they showed Halys circus and the dynamic between Raven and Dick was nice. I didn't like the "F*ck Batman" line. Lord knows Batman has earned a few eff yous but I feel that Dick wouldn't say that. It's more Jason or Damian. The CGI is pretty bad but that's to be expected on a low budget show. Unfortunately I still hate Starfires costume. Any chance that this is her best attempt at dressing as human, or she nabbed these clothes on the fly, fleeing from the Gordanians?

----------


## OWL45

Honestly I like the fact that they did this. It gets people talking and creates a buzz rather you like it or slam it. The worst thing would be no one talking at all which sadly if they went the way some suggest it would just be like Cloak and Dagger. The more they talk about Dick Grayson the better for the character IMO.

----------


## Badou

> Sounds like the typical speculation/fanfiction, then.


All it was is that Kid Flash was referenced. Donna being on the show and the confirmation of the darker tone gave the rumors flying around more credibility I think, but we will know for certain eventually.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It was a little dark and overly edgy, but whatever. Im still watching it. Dick could be an angsty Dick in the NTT days.


That appear to be exactly what they are going for
don't worry Donna troy will be visiting to help him out

----------


## Onthetrapeze

“The trailer really highlights Akiva Goldsman, Greg Berlanti and I have done to honor Marv and George in the 80s. It was the first time you ever saw two superheroes in bed together. We’re trying to honor that spirit of envelope pushing.”

Johns went on to tease appearances for Donna Troy and Jason Todd as well as an eventual Nightwing evolution for Dick Grayson, “Dick is really trying to leave Robin behind,” he said, talking of his “bad break” with Batman, “so you might guess where he’s going to end up.”

https://www.cbr.com/sdcc-geoff-johns-spotlight/

----------


## oasis1313

I didn't know till I saw that trailer that Hawk and Dove were in it.  But glad to see more projects with Dick Grayson--the more, the better!!!!!

----------


## yohyoi

DC did it! The mad men!

F*ck Batman!

#F*ckBatman

----------


## yohyoi

> Yeah, reading more I'm a bit put off by their version of Dick. Seems he and Batgirl are on really bad terms and he even resents Kid Flash maybe if that rumor is true because he is close with his mentor. Stuff like that always puts me off. It does feel like they are taking a lot of influences from the DCAU Dick and I hope that doesn't mean they will go with a Batgirl/Batman romance in this as a source for angst.


That Batgirl is a disloyal thot. She destroyed the Bat family. I don't like Batgirl, but that version of her sucks the most. Batgirl has the worst representation in the Bat family.

----------


## bearman

If any two characters in comics deserved a “happy ending” , outside of Lois and Clark, it is Batman and Robin.
These guys should be close as brothers, with an unbreakable bond. Grayson was the only consistent book to portray that.
I hoe the F word does not make it into the final broadcast...they can’t want to bend Dick’s character THAT much.

----------


## yohyoi

> If any two characters in comics deserved a “happy ending” , outside of Lois and Clark, it is Batman and Robin.
> These guys should be close as brothers, with an unbreakable bond. Grayson was the only consistent book to portray that.
> I hoe the F word does not make it into the final broadcast...they can’t want to bend Dick’s character THAT much.


They had fights. Dick will start cooling down when he forms the Titans and become Nightwing. Batman isn't the easiest partner to have.

----------


## josai21

I'm okay with Dick starting out angsty and in a broken relationship with Bruce.

But...this is my main concern...its unlikely they will ever allow Batman on television..which means we won't ever have the necessary heart-to- heart to resolve that tension.

----------


## byrd156

> TITANS TRAILER SPOILERS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I just watch Dick kill a bunch of people then say "fuck Batman"? Please tell me I didn't.


No it's been confirmed he didn't kill them. He just beat the hell out of them. He stabbed that guy in the collarbone, he shot the gun up so it would scare the criminals and stepped on the guy's jaw breaking it. I thought he was killing people too so I'm glad he didn't but idk how I feel about the brutality of it.

----------


## byrd156

> I dunno, I think we would've known by now if Batgirl and Kid Flash were in this.


Yeah I highly doubt Wally will be in this show sadly.

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay. This made me laugh.

"How about less Dick Grayson saying "f*ck Batman" in Titans and more Dick Grayson f*cking Ba—"

Got it off twitter

...

Man half the people in that thread take this so seriously

----------


## yohyoi

My theory is that they made the trailer controversial to get people talking. It was basically Robin and Raven. The darkest members of the team. It was an easy way to spread the word about their new streaming service.

"Robin Says F*ck Batman!" headlines spread like wildfire. Not everyone cares about the Titans, but everyone knows Batman. Whether it was good or bad, it grabbed a lot of attention.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> If any two characters in comics deserved a “happy ending” , outside of Lois and Clark, it is Batman and Robin.
> These guys should be close as brothers, with an unbreakable bond. Grayson was the only consistent book to portray that.
> I hoe the F word does not make it into the final broadcast...they can’t want to bend Dick’s character THAT much.



Come on，how could the F word break an unbreakable bond.  :Big Grin: 
They fought a lot when Dick was in his teenage. They still fight now. But at the end of the day they are best partners/brothers for sure.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm okay with Dick starting out angsty and in a broken relationship with Bruce.
> 
> But...this is my main concern...its unlikely they will ever allow Batman on television..which means we won't ever have the necessary heart-to- heart to resolve that tension.


Thats the best part its not tv  so well see what they allow

----------


## Maxpower00044

Hey, just wanted to share with you guys and girls, my favorite scene from Dark Victory.

----------


## yohyoi

I will still admit Titans trailer is one of the most amateur-made trailers I have seen. The lighting, transition and sound usage are mediocre. If the series is good, this is one of farthest quality I have seen from trailer to series. Good luck to DC as always.

----------


## Ascended

I can't say I was terribly impressed with the trailer either. I'll be getting the streaming service long enough to watch Young Justice with the kids, and I'm sure I'll give the first episode a shot then. But it seems like it's trying awfully hard to wow us with how adult it is.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Yeah nothing in that Titans trailer was out of character for Dick, it's pretty much what I was expecting and excited to see so I was happy. Loved seeing the glimpses of Dick mentoring Rachel. The trailer was edited somewhat poorly with a questionable song choice, which is why I think not many people were able to 1) notice Dick didn't kill anyone and 2)the scenes are actually filmed well, it's the editing of the trailer taking away all the weight. 

The Young Justice trailer was amazing, I love that Dick has an in between stealth suit between his old and new Nightwing suits. It was great seeing how the Outsiders are coming to be, and that Wally is affecting him the same way Donna did after Graduation Day. 

Also, a DC Ink book was recently announced, called Dick Grayson: Lost Carnival, starring Dick pre-Robin at Haly's, and written by Michael Moreci (he wrote Nightwing #43, which I loved). This'll join DC Ink's Teen Titans: Raven (1 of 6 TT books) from Garcia and Picolo. 

There's a lot of Dick going around for a lot of demographics, basically.

----------


## Starter Set

> I will still admit Titans trailer is one of the most amateur-made trailers I have seen


It truly is. Plus, emo teen acting all edgy cause he has daddy issues? 

Pass.

We already have Jason for that.

----------


## Vinsanity

Yeah I'm not going to bother with Titans. It's not my cup of tea but I wish the actors and everyone working on it the best. 

I thought Riverdale would be fun...I was wrong  :Frown:

----------


## yohyoi

Young Justice Dick is huge. I like how manly he looks and the jacket looks cool.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Young Justice Dick is huge. I like how manly he looks and the jacket looks cool.


His new uniform looks awesome, too. :Big Grin:

----------


## byrd156

I really want Dick to upgrade his Nightwing costume.

----------


## byrd156

> I will still admit Titans trailer is one of the most amateur-made trailers I have seen. The lighting, transition and sound usage are mediocre. If the series is good, this is one of farthest quality I have seen from trailer to series. Good luck to DC as always.


After that trailer I really hope they have a strong editing team for the show. I know that trailers are generally done by a different team but it still worries me a bit.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is the most versatile comic book character ever. There is a version of him for everyone. No one has our boy's range.

----------


## yohyoi

I know everyone is hating on Titans right now, but I'm excited. It's been a long time since we got a live-action Dick Grayson. I'm gonna enjoy it even if it is a train wreck. I enjoyed TTG when I was watching with my younger cousins, so I might be an outlier. Anyway, we will get a Nightwing in the DCEU in a couple of years. It's not like Titans is the last one.

----------


## RedBird

> Young Justice Dick is huge. I like how manly he looks and the jacket looks cool.


Oh nice, I didn't expect them to shift his design from season 2, but I like it. I guess he's all grown up now.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Vinsanity

> Oh nice, I didn't expect them to shift his design from season 2, but I like it. I guess he's all grown up now.


Would be so cool like near the end of the season he goes into Grayson mode but alas it won't happen.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I really want Dick to upgrade his Nightwing costume.


look how big he is mabey he might become batman soon
usualy dicks at his beefies when thats about to happen

----------


## Fergus

> Young Justice Dick is huge. I like how manly he looks and the jacket looks cool.


He is beefy.

----------


## Ascended

> It truly is. Plus, emo teen acting all edgy cause he has daddy issues? 
> 
> Pass.
> 
> We already have Jason for that.


But that's the place where Dick was at when the NTT started.

Jason might be the grumpy, angsty edgelord now but Dick and Bruce have a long, rocky history and have gone long lengths of time barely speaking, with Dick super angry at Bruce. 

Nothing I saw here struck me as being out of character. It's just a place we haven't seen Dick at for a while. 

I understand not caring for it, and I'm not terribly impressed either, but this was 100% pure Dick Grayson....just with a little extra cursing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> But that's the place where Dick was at when the NTT started.
> 
> Jason might be the grumpy, angsty edgelord now but Dick and Bruce have a long, rocky history and have gone long lengths of time barely speaking, with Dick super angry at Bruce. 
> 
> Nothing I saw here struck me as being out of character. It's just a place we haven't seen Dick at for a while. 
> 
> I understand not caring for it, and I'm not terribly impressed either, but this was 100% pure Dick Grayson....just with a little extra cursing.


again its jsut a modenr telling of his late teen in 2018 rather then the 80s
his transformation is abbout to begin into the robin we love

----------


## Starter Set

> But that's the place where Dick was at when the NTT started.
> 
> Jason might be the grumpy, angsty edgelord now but Dick and Bruce have a long, rocky history and have gone long lengths of time barely speaking, with Dick super angry at Bruce. 
> 
> Nothing I saw here struck me as being out of character. It's just a place we haven't seen Dick at for a while. 
> 
> I understand not caring for it, and I'm not terribly impressed either, but this was 100% pure Dick Grayson....just with a little extra cursing.


Not saying it's out of character.

Just saying that i have no interest in watching some teen acting all edgy and emo cause his bat-daddy doesn't hug.

That's all.

But eh, best of luck to that show. I'm not one to wish for other people to fail. If they think that's the right formula, well maybe they are right, time will tell.

----------


## Ascended

> Not saying it's out of character.
> 
> Just saying that i have no interest in watching some teen acting all edgy and emo cause his bat-daddy doesn't hug.
> 
> That's all.
> 
> But eh, best of luck to that show. I'm not one to wish for other people to fail. If they think that's the right formula, well maybe they are right, time will tell.


Ah, then yeah I'm right there with you. Don't have much interest in the show, but I wish it luck.

It looks like it'll be a fairly loyal adaptation (not panel-for-panel but spiritually), except for Kori. I'm not entirely sure what's going on there but what little we've seen doesn't strike me as being very "Kori" like. But again, we haven't seen much so who knows?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Dick was aggressive and bitter towards Bruce in the early NTT issues, sometimes overly so. Right in the first issue, Dick leaves the penthouse dressed as Robin, and Bruce asks him what's up and if he needs help (which doesn't seem remotely unreasonable). Dick immediately goes all "GET OFF MY CASE OLD MAN" and whines in his internal monologue that Bruce still treats him like a kid. While he was in the right to stand up to Batman and the JL and in other instances, Dick could be, well...an immature dick. 

So there is precedent for him acting like this, including the fact that he plays a role in the problems leading to the feud, so it's not all Batman's fault. "Fuck Batman" is still low hanging fruit, a too on-the-nose way to get that across, too edgy for the sake of it, and putting the words in the mouth of a character like Robin who people primarily know as a cartoon character just comes across looking silly. This whole trailer does. Slapping TV-MA in front of a Titans show makes it seem like it's a parody of the too dark reputation DC media has of late, except it's 100% serious.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

well, it seems that they really invested a lot into the show，so I will give it a shot.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick was aggressive and bitter towards Bruce in the early NTT issues, sometimes overly so. Right in the first issue, Dick leaves the penthouse dressed as Robin, and Bruce asks him what's up and if he needs help (which doesn't seem remotely unreasonable). Dick immediately goes all "GET OFF MY CASE OLD MAN" and whines in his internal monologue that Bruce still treats him like a kid. While he was in the right to stand up to Batman and the JL and in other instances, Dick could be, well...an immature dick. 
> 
> So there is precedent for him acting like this, including the fact that he plays a role in the problems leading to the feud, so it's not all Batman's fault. "Fuck Batman" is still low hanging fruit, a too on-the-nose way to get that across, too edgy for the sake of it, and putting the words in the mouth of a character like Robin who people primarily know as a cartoon character just comes across looking silly. This whole trailer does. Slapping TV-MA in front of a Titans show makes it seem like it's a parody of the too dark reputation DC media has of late, except it's 100% serious.






people must really not know Dick Grayson, Nightwing is our matured butterfly after his fallout

----------


## Godlike13

Dick was such a frigging teenager during NTT. He wasnt the laidback wisecracker he matured into, but an up tight teen with a chip on his shoulder. Now obviously the trailer was abrasive about it, and trying to shock and make an impact, but that kind of attitude is not with out its roots.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick was such a frigging teenager during NTT. He wasn’t the laidback wisecracker he matured into, but an up tight teen with a chip on his shoulder. Now obviously the trailer was abrasive about it, and trying to shock and make an impact, but that kind of attitude is not with out its roots.


people don't know that about him that clip is what over 10 years old, its not like nightwing /dicks has had a consistent heavy stream in the media
then again even the Animated TeenTitans  Robin had shades of this, the violence, isolations, anger, obssevinesss  

he just couldn't curse, its actually no more edgy then usual

----------


## Ascended

I dont think the language is all that out of line for Dick either. Granted, we don't see him swear like that in the comics, but the comics have to maintain a certain degree of "all age-ness" and I very much doubt WB would let that kind of language fly, even in books with rooftop sex scenes and excessive violence. 

But Dick grew up in a circus and has that "bad boy with a heart of gold" vibe going on. I've always assumed that, if he weren't limited by the mandates of the industry, he'd swear like a sailor. 

It comes across as trying way too hard in this trailer, but the idea of Dick using that kind of language feels rather natural to me. Of course, I swear to the point I'd make truckers, bikers, and sailors blush, but I really don't think my bias is actually in the wrong place here.

----------


## byrd156

I thik it's perfectly natural for Dick's current point in his life. It's just always more "shocking" when you see the transition into live action. Seeing characters being drawn and getting hit feels and looks different than actors doing it. It will always seem more intense plus the terribly cut trailer didn't help.

----------


## Restingvoice

Titans Dick is not a teen. He's a cop. Unless that scene is a flashback.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Titans Dick is not a teen. He's a cop. Unless that scene is a flashback.


hes proably 19-21  the shows called Titasn not TT

----------


## Slim Shady

Ill check it out and hope for the best. But honestly, it was not a good looking trailer.

----------


## oasis1313

> I’ll check it out and hope for the best. But honestly, it was not a good looking trailer.


Hey, that's what I said about the Inhumans show.  Will this TItans show be on TV or do you pay to subscribe on the computer?  Free youtube reruns the next day?

----------


## Slim Shady

> Hey, that's what I said about the Inhumans show.  Will this TItans show be on TV or do you pay to subscribe on the computer?  Free youtube reruns the next day?


From what I can tell it will air on the new DC streaming service. Pay to subscribe kinda like Netflix or something.

----------


## yohyoi

> people must really not know Dick Grayson, Nightwing is our matured butterfly after his fallout


The original F*ck Batman. I don't want a one note Dick Grayson. Dick can also be angry and resentful. I hate that Jason is the only one allowed to be by a lot of the fandom. Dick is a complicated character with complex growth. Tumblr can't appreciate that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The original F*ck Batman. I don't want a one note Dick Grayson. Dick can also be angry and resentful. I hate that Jason is the only one allowed to be by a lot of the fandom. Dick is a complicated character with complex growth. Tumblr can't appreciate that.


tumblr made their own version of dick where he is happy and gay gives hugs all the time
Dick grayson even at his best is never that cheerful he has had his low before we get to the nightwing we all love

----------


## OWL45

> The original F*ck Batman. I don't want a one note Dick Grayson. Dick can also be angry and resentful. I hate that Jason is the only one allowed to be by a lot of the fandom. Dick is a complicated character with complex growth. Tumblr can't appreciate that.


I very much agree with you. Thats why this character stays stuck in the mud. They want him to be some sort of Spider-Man in the DCU wich he is not like. The character is more complex than what some fans want to allow.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I very much agree with you. That’s why this character stays stuck in the mud. They want him to be some sort of Spider-Man in the DCU wich he is not like. The character is more complex than what some fans want to allow.


but the spiderman i gre up withh was fun, but he was not happy go lucky, 
he had an even worse temper  then dick at 18-19



mabey that teen disney spiderman

----------


## OWL45

> but the spiderman i gre up withh was fun, but he was not happy go lucky, 
> he had an even worse temper  then dick at 18-19
> 
> 
> 
> mabey that teen disney spiderman


My point is that they are very different characters.

----------


## Restingvoice

Guys, I don't care if it's comic book accurate or not. 

The reason I don't like it is that he sounds like an edgy teen, especially in a trailer without context. He sounds like a teenager who _thinks_ he's all grown up now and can go out on his own without his dad, when in real life that often doesn't work. 

So that's why I ask if that's a flashback and he's still a teenager at that time. I still don't like it, but at least it explains it. He's supposed to be a cop now and that line makes him sound immature if he's saying it as an adult. 

Also, even if he's a teenager with a good reason for hating Batman... like if he's abusive or so, that still won't make me like it because I don't like abusive Batman.

I keep hearing that oh... he's like this because that's what his comic version is like... no. That's not the problem. The problem is the trailer just so badly cut it made him look like a murderer and an edgy teen, or deliberately cut to get people talking at how different and adult it is. 

Speaking of adult, the rating TV-MA too. Titans comics don't even get an adult rating. Don't tell me they're not trying too hard. 

Of course, this all comes down to the trailer trying too hard, and maybe the series will turn out different, but the trailer's job is to convince people to buy the thing... and I'm not interested. 

This also reminds me of Tim Drake in Arkham games. That's also a try-hard. Tim's super buff, his hobby is cage fighting and he has a crew cut... like, what are you doing...

Also, this kind of reaction comes from everywhere. Here, Twitter, Youtube, Tumblr, Scans Daily wherever the trailer is posted. When you get this many people voicing the same thing, it won't be just because they're not comic book fans, because the ones that are also comic book fans also feel the same way, but sure, keep using Tumblr as a stereotype.

----------


## Godlike13

NTT was actually very progressive for its time. Stuff like Dick and Kory in bed together, etc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Guys, I don't care if it's comic book accurate or not. 
> 
> The reason I don't like it is that he sounds like an edgy teen, especially in a trailer without context. He sounds like a teenager who _thinks_ he's all grown up now and can go out on his own without his dad, when in real life that often doesn't work. 
> 
> So that's why I ask if that's a flashback and he's still a teenager at that time. I still don't like it, but at least it explains it. He's supposed to be a cop now and that line makes him sound immature if he's saying it as an adult. 
> 
> Also, even if he's a teenager with a good reason for hating Batman... like if he's abusive or so, that still won't make me like it because I don't like abusive Batman.
> 
> I keep hearing that oh... he's like this because that's what his comic version is like... no. That's not the problem. The problem is the trailer just so badly cut it made him look like a murderer and an edgy teen, or deliberately cut to get people talking at how different and adult it is. 
> ...


youd be edgy to if you faught the forces of evil all you adolecent, i thought you were dick grayson fan, this was part of his journey, if you dont like him at his worst then too bad. All the marvel netflix series are TV-MA but incase you thought this was gonna be live action kim possible they wanted to warn you.

----------


## Drako

> Guys, I don't care if it's comic book accurate or not. 
> 
> The reason I don't like it is that he sounds like an edgy teen, especially in a trailer without context. He sounds like a teenager who _thinks_ he's all grown up now and can go out on his own without his dad, when in real life that often doesn't work. 
> 
> So that's why I ask if that's a flashback and he's still a teenager at that time. I still don't like it, but at least it explains it. He's supposed to be a cop now and that line makes him sound immature if he's saying it as an adult. 
> 
> Also, even if he's a teenager with a good reason for hating Batman... like if he's abusive or so, that still won't make me like it because I don't like abusive Batman.
> 
> I keep hearing that oh... he's like this because that's what his comic version is like... no. That's not the problem. The problem is the trailer just so badly cut it made him look like a murderer and an edgy teen, or deliberately cut to get people talking at how different and adult it is. 
> ...


If you understand that trailer is the problem, you should at least watch the first episode to see the final product.

You're right, the trailer is poorly put together, it's one of the worst i saw in a long time. But i'm willing to give the series a chance the same way i gave all the others CW shows.

----------


## CPSparkles

Young Justice looks great. Dick looks great in it.

There seems to be a lot of Dick Grayson stuff coming up. He was a large part of SDCC and I love those convention bags with him on it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Young Justice looks great. Dick looks great in it.
> 
> There seems to be a lot of Dick Grayson stuff coming up. He was a large part of SDCC and I love those convention bags with him on it.


He's basicly the face of this DCEU launch
so if Titans is panned and to fail  I hope everyone knows what gonna happen right....

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> He's basicly the face of this DCEU launch
> so if Titans is panned and to fail  I hope everyone knows what gonna happen right....


He...he will be pushed back to the dark little corner of DCU and become Grayson again？:'(

----------


## Arsenal

> He's basicly the face of this DCEU launch
> so if Titans is panned and to fail  I hope everyone knows what gonna happen right....


Jason replaces Dick as the prominent former Robin in all media adaptions going foward? Sweet.

----------


## yohyoi

> Jason replaces Dick as the prominent former Robin in all media adaptions going foward? Sweet.


You mean Damian. Because I'm sure DC only knows two Robins. They know the other two as Crowbarred and Tom Brake. Sorry, it's Tam Shake.

----------


## yohyoi

> He...he will be pushed back to the dark little corner of DCU and become Grayson again？:'(


Believe it or not. Some Dick fans here want that.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick won't be banging Batgirl! Thank the Lord! My prayers are answered! No unusual 90's relationship drama!

I nominate Jessica Cruz or Starfire as Dick's next girlfriend. DO IT, DC! DO IT!!!

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/07...-tom-derenick/

----------


## dietrich

> He...he will be pushed back to the dark little corner of DCU and become Grayson again？:'(


Agent 37 Ba Bow Bow




Yeah bring on the Super Spy who throws his gun

----------


## Ascended

> He's basicly the face of this DCEU launch
> so if Titans is panned and to fail  I hope everyone knows what gonna happen right....


Dick will continue to be a low priority for DC, but remain popular enough that they can't easily get rid of him? 

He's not allowed to join the big leagues. Both Dick's solo and the Titans sell decently no matter how terrible they are. DC ignores Dick and doesn't invest in him but he still generates a respectable profit; it's basically free money. If the show is terrible, not much is going to change in the comics. 

Now, if that Nightwing movie happens and that is a failure? That *might* be worth getting concerned about. But the movie hasn't even been officially announced, has no cast, no release date....it's not worth being worried about the movie since it won't be happening for years, if it happens at all. 

Generally I wouldn't worry even about the movie. WB knows that a movie's success or failure barely impacts comic sales outside of a tiny blip in the direct market and stronger-than-average trade sales for a month or two. But with the shakeups in the company and the new eyes on these properties, who knows?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick will continue to be a low priority for DC, but remain popular enough that they can't easily get rid of him? 
> 
> He's not allowed to join the big leagues. Both Dick's solo and the Titans sell decently no matter how terrible they are. DC ignores Dick and doesn't invest in him but he still generates a respectable profit; it's basically free money. If the show is terrible, not much is going to change in the comics. 
> 
> Now, if that Nightwing movie happens and that is a failure? That *might* be worth getting concerned about. But the movie hasn't even been officially announced, has no cast, no release date....it's not worth being worried about the movie since it won't be happening for years, if it happens at all. 
> 
> Generally I wouldn't worry even about the movie. WB knows that a movie's success or failure barely impacts comic sales outside of a tiny blip in the direct market and stronger-than-average trade sales for a month or two. But with the shakeups in the company and the new eyes on these properties, who knows?


If  there is no positive reception to To dick while he the face of the Titans franchise, I believe he will be taken down and repalced by either tim and damian. But its not the titans that matter, but rather just a platform to show the world Nightwing and the dick grayson we know and love beyond the fanbase he has now.  Forget Grayson ever coming back Nightwing may even become less of a priority to DC then he already is
Suicde Squad, Harley and WonderWoman are have dramatic pushes since their movie debuts

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Believe it or not. Some Dick fans here want that.


I know. Actually I am one of them. :Big Grin:  
Not that I don't love Nightwing...

----------


## dietrich

> If  there is no positive reception to To dick while he the face of the Titans franchise, I believe he will be taken down and repalced by either tim and damian. But its not the titans that matter, but rather just a platform to show the world Nightwing and the dick grayson we know and love beyond the fanbase he has now.  Forget Grayson ever coming back Nightwing may even become less of a priority to DC then he already is
> Suicde Squad, Harley and WonderWoman are have dramatic pushes since their movie debuts


Nightwing will get his movie. Titans sadly as a franchise is a mess. TTGO creates a real problem because that franchise and line up is ridiculously popular [the movie currently has a 100% on RT] and yet that line up doesn't exist anywhere but in that show.

There's a new generation of young people right now growing up with those as their Titans. This makes it difficult to retire characters like Dick from the Titans franchise. For better or for worse Dick is stuck as the face of the franchise for the foreseeable future.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Nightwing will get his movie. Titans sadly as a franchise is a mess. TTGO creates a real problem because that franchise and line up is ridiculously popular [the movie currently has a 100% on RT] and yet that line up doesn't exist anywhere but in that show.
> 
> There's a new generation of young people right now growing up with those as their Titans. This makes it difficult to retire characters like Dick from the Titans franchise. For better or for worse Dick is stuck as the face of the franchise for the foreseeable future.


I really really want to hear Cyborg say 'booyah' in Titans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing will get his movie. Titans sadly as a franchise is a mess. TTGO creates a real problem because that franchise and line up is ridiculously popular [the movie currently has a 100% on RT] and yet that line up doesn't exist anywhere but in that show.
> 
> There's a new generation of young people right now growing up with those as their Titans. This makes it difficult to retire characters like Dick from the Titans franchise. For better or for worse Dick is stuck as the face of the franchise for the foreseeable future.


TTGO is doing great, its jsut a bunch of angry 20 somthing who are angry and DC doesnt care

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> TTGO is doing great, its jsut a bunch of angry 20 somthing who are angry and DC doesnt care


The problem is that fans of TTGO (or even the original TT) don't have a book that is a clear 1 to 1 jump. 

I'm hoping the DC Ink series is a better fit for what I'm looking for from the Titans.

----------


## king81992

> I really really want to hear Cyborg say 'booyah' in Titans.


I just want to see Cyborg hanging out with the Titans again or at least have the writers reference his past history with them.

----------


## Starter Set

> The problem is that fans of TTGO (or even the original TT) don't have a book that is a clear 1 to 1 jump


True, true. 

Well, i'm not sure i would call that a "problem" as i don't think that those cartoons really bring that more readers to DC but for those who indeed would be interested by such a book there isn't really anything for them.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> True, true. 
> 
> Well, i'm not sure i would call that a "problem" as i don't think that those cartoons really bring that more readers to DC but for those who indeed would be interested by such a book there isn't really anything for them.


Anecdotal, but it worked for me. I got in with TT and having a book where I could kind of trace those characters back (Johns TT) was crucial in catapulting my interest as a DC reader.

Now sure they're all older and wiser, but I should be able to go into the stands and pick up a book with some combo of Dick, Star, Gar, Cy, BB with them: 

- being independent
- doing superhero and regular life stuff
- having FUN!
- dealing with normal drama

----------


## OversizedLoad

NIGHTWING #50
Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.

"Knight Terrors" begins here! The big issue #50 kicks off an epic four-part story that brings together critical moments of fear and doubt from the past and the present. A young Dick Grayson hopes to escape the shadow of the Bat and earn the title of Nightwing, while an older Dick Grayson must deal with a blow he did not see coming. A common enemy unites the timelines: the Scarecrow, as you've never seen him before! This story goes deep into the mythology and nightmarish development of Dr. Jonathan Crane.
48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Oct. 3. 

NIGHTWING #51 
Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Howard Porter.

And while Nightwing struggles to uncover the truth behind the "fear germ" that is killing people in their sleep, he must also try to overcome his own sudden struggles with heights and vertigo. He has lost his primary skill set as a hero and will have to focus on his brilliance as a detective instead. And a distracting love triangle certainly isn't helping him focus...This new storyline spins out of events in Batman #55. The start of a new direction in Nightwing's crimefighting career!
32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 17. 

nightwing51.jpg

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I just want to see Cyborg hanging out with the Titans again or at least have the writers reference his past history with them.


Yeah，even an Easter egg hinting that Cyborg will join the team in the future would be SUPER. 
DC，for once just give fans what we want.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The problem is that fans of TTGO (or even the original TT) don't have a book that is a clear 1 to 1 jump. 
> 
> I'm hoping the DC Ink series is a better fit for what I'm looking for from the Titans.


but that would regress Dick Kory cyborg who have all mooved on from such, Poor  Raven should be 25 but the fan love she got from TT will keep her 16 forever
Beastboy was always 4 years dicks junior so its not so bad he doing better then most of tim's generation of which he is inbetween

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah，even an Easter egg hinting that Cyborg will join the team in the future would be SUPER. 
> DC，for once just give fans what we want.


they are planning on him being in doom patrol
and then possiby appearing sin season 2 of titans

no suprise Cyborg and bestboy were best freinds

----------


## Onthetrapeze

sorry, double post

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> NIGHTWING #50
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.
> 
> "Knight Terrors" begins here! The big issue #50 kicks off an epic four-part story that brings together critical moments of fear and doubt from the past and the present. A young Dick Grayson hopes to escape the shadow of the Bat and earn the title of Nightwing, while an older Dick Grayson must deal with a blow he did not see coming. A common enemy unites the timelines: the Scarecrow, as you've never seen him before! This story goes deep into the mythology and nightmarish development of Dr. Jonathan Crane.
> 48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Oct. 3. 
> 
> NIGHTWING #51 
> Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Howard Porter.
> 
> ...


-art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore

I am in. :Big Grin: 

-He has lost his primary skill set as a hero and will have to focus on his brilliance as a detective instead.
-a distracting love triangle

Um. Ok let's see how it goes

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> they are planning on him being in doom patrol
> and then possiby appearing sin season 2 of titans
> 
> no suprise Cyborg and bestboy were best freinds


That'd be great. I wonder will they ignore the DCEU storyline in which Cyborg has known the JL.

----------


## yohyoi

If Donna is part of the love triangle, I will riot. This is the worst way to have a relationship. Please be Starfire! Please!

----------


## Godlike13

Why would Donna be part of the love triangle?

----------


## oasis1313

I think it's a good idea to take Dick out of his comfort zone for awhile, and especially to focus on his intelligence.  I'd love to see him not being treated like a bimbo.

----------


## byrd156

> If Donna is part of the love triangle, I will riot. This is the worst way to have a relationship. Please be Starfire! Please!


I doubt it would be Donna but even it was I wouldn't mind. George Perez originally planned a relationship between the two during the NTT. Plus they have a long history so it wouldn't be out of nowhere.

----------


## Moonwix

I'm hope it's not starfire. I like the current state of this two ships, Dick and Barbara in the comics and Dick and Kory in media adaptations. Preferably, it stays that way, (the 2 ships were never met to over lap each other). This fan fic concept was created by the fandom and it looks like dc wants to roll with it.

DC has a bias to the batman franchise in general, and in the end Starfire is going to end up the whipping girl in all of this, yeah I don't want her dragged back into this mess.

I think its Shawn. But I doubt that, the cover in heroes in crisis  and the change to batgirl 25 and JLO is a red flag.
I guess DC thinks a love triangle  will increase sales, i guess.

----------


## Moonwix

> I doubt it would be Donna but even it was I wouldn't mind. George Perez originally planned a relationship between the two during the NTT. Plus they have a long history so it wouldn't be out of nowhere.


I wouldn't mind too, it's the other relationship I always wanted for Dick besides Kory.

----------


## byrd156

> I wouldn't mind too, it's the other relationship I always wanted for Dick besides Kory.


Really wish DC would stop pairing her with Roy.

----------


## dietrich

Loving all the solicits for Dick aside from the love triangle. Personally I don't think Dick should be anchored down with one particular love interest So .... here Mari Grayson and Damian playing

----------


## Godlike13

Bare in mind Donna apparently doesn’t even like Dick as friend very much anymore, thanks for that Abnett, and Kory is in space.

----------


## byrd156

> Bare in mind Donna apparently doesn’t even like Dick as friend very much anymore, thanks for that Abnett, and Kory is in space.


I doubt anyone is planning on carrying that over after he's done with this series.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would Donna be part of the love triangle?


theyhave the best platonic realtionship i have ever seen in fiction
never any doubts but so strong, she never looses faith in him like other mebers of the titans have

----------


## yohyoi

With Roy most likely dying, I hope they don't do the Cassie and Tim to Donna and Dick. It would destroy their relationship for me. The amount of female friends who he hasn't made out with is getting fewer. DiDio being in charge again isn't providing me confidence.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> but that would regress Dick Kory cyborg who have all mooved on from such, Poor  Raven should be 25 but the fan love she got from TT will keep her 16 forever
> Beastboy was always 4 years dicks junior so its not so bad he doing better then most of tim's generation of which he is inbetween


I felt like the Johns/Mckone run handled things well. 

Cyborg's role as team coach felt like a perfect extension of his role in the show, as was Star as the big sister who is willing to fight wonder woman to let Cassie choose what she wants to do, then you have Gar as the jokester who is realizing you can't be the funny kid forever. 

As for Nightwing, maybe have him (and DC) decide what the big picture is for the Titans? 

Give readers something where they can squint and go "Okay, I can see how my favorite characters would end up here"

----------


## Badou

Maybe Roy dying might have been why Dick and Starfire were hugging on the cover of that King's Sanctuary event. She was sad that her ex-boyfriend she dated for a long time died.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe Roy dying might have been why Dick and Starfire were hugging on the cover of that King's Sanctuary event. She was sad that her ex-boyfriend she dated for a long time died.


omg why are they killing him, they just reintroduced jade

----------


## oasis1313

> I wouldn't mind too, it's the other relationship I always wanted for Dick besides Kory.


Do we know it's another woman in a "triangle"?  If he's not killed off, Penguin's son could come back and Dick would have to compete with him over Barbara.

----------


## WonderNight

Is power girl back yet? hope its her.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Looking at old JSA stuff I want Nightwing to for a team with Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid With The Super Squad. Add the Super Friends characters and you have a diverse and unique team not held down by previous stories. The only thing is the Justice League and their pantheon, but if they could focus on civilization and Building relationships Hidden Realm/Solar System Civilization.

----------


## WonderNight

> Looking at old JSA stuff I want Nightwing to for a team with Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid With The Super Squad. Add the Super Friends characters and you have a diverse and unique team not held down by previous stories. The only thing is the Justice League and their pantheon, but if they could focus on civilization and Building relationships Hidden Realm/Solar System Civilization.


 I would love if dc pushed Nightwing, Power Girl and Wally Flash as the big 3 of there generation. (donna just isn't there in my mind).

----------


## Frontier

> Do we know it's another woman in a "triangle"?  If he's not killed off, Penguin's son could come back and Dick would have to compete with him over Barbara.


Honestly, I just assumed it was a Percy OC if there is "another woman" involved.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## oasis1313

> 


Ooooh, the fabulous costume is sparkly as well as shiny!

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #47 Preview

http://blacknerdproblems.com/exclusi...ing-47-review/

----------


## Lazurus33

sorry duplicate post

----------


## Rac7d*

when

----------


## Rac7d*

when

----------


## Godlike13

I see the forum is bugging out on you guys too, lol. Anyway I know its out of context, and incomplete, but that scene like that is hilarious. Personally Im at the point where I think Dick should have a moment where he says **** the JL. Id mark out for that  :Cool:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I see the forum is bugging out on you guys too, lol. Anyway I know it’s out of context, and incomplete, but that scene like that is hilarious. Personally I’m at the point where I think Dick should have a moment where he says **** the JL. I’d mark out for that


**** the JL 
they are all a buunch of controling assholes
the Justice Lords Possiblity  never strays to far

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay so... we know that Robin was first created as a kid appeal character, and there's no need for any more justification than that because it's a comic book, but today... starting at about the 80s? They started to make Batman more realistic, gritty and darker, and with more realism. They want Batman to be taken seriously. It's to the point where they don't want to use Robin at all, but in comics itself Robin is a must as a commodity. 

So my question, what were the justifications, every time they want to include a child in a dark and gritty world of Batman where the enemies are gangster and psychopaths? 

For example, Robin in Schumacher's Batman is a college student and even then he still didn't want to include him until he realized Two-Face and Riddler are too much to take on alone. 

In BTAS he's a high schooler but I don't remember the reason.

In New 52, he's a high schooler with such prodigious skills and saved his life, so he took him in begrudgingly, and there was a lot of tension before really slowly they develop respect to each other.

In Young Justice, he's still 9 to 13, but Batman said it's so Dick won't turn out like him. 

In Dark Victory, he took him in because he relates to him and also to replace the emptiness that Harvey Dent left after he became Two-Face. Later on he's impressed with his way of thinking that actually helped him solve the case, but the story stopped before Batman agrees to have a Robin. He just thought it's a good idea to have another friend. 

In TDKR, he's an adult cop who go straight to be Batman. Robin is just a name drop. 

That's all I know though. What else did they say, how did they handle the stories, and which one is your favorite?

----------


## byrd156

> Okay so... we know that Robin was first created as a kid appeal character, and there's no need for any more justification than that because it's a comic book, but today... starting at about the 80s? They started to make Batman more realistic, gritty and darker, and with more realism. They want Batman to be taken seriously. It's to the point where they don't want to use Robin at all, but in comics itself Robin is a must as a commodity. 
> 
> So my question, what were the justifications, every time they want to include a child in a dark and gritty world of Batman where the enemies are gangster and psychopaths? 
> 
> For example, Robin in Schumacher's Batman is a college student and even then he still didn't want to include him until he realized Two-Face and Riddler are too much to take on alone. 
> 
> In BTAS he's a high schooler but I don't remember the reason.
> 
> In New 52, he's a high schooler with such prodigious skills and saved his life, so he took him in begrudgingly, and there was a lot of tension before really slowly they develop respect to each other.
> ...


Well in the DCAU (BTAS) Dick started being Robin around 9. The writers of the show wanted to use Dick but didn't want him to be around all the time so they decided to make him be in college by the time the show starts. That way they don't always have to explain where Dick is and he can still have adventures.

To me Robin's Reckoning is the best way to describe/do Dick and Bruce's relationship. Dick loses his parents at a young age, Bruce sees himself in the boy and volunteers to look after him for awhile so Zucco can't find him. Bruce works tirelessly as Batman to catch to him for Dick but doesn't realize he is somewhat neglecting him as Bruce. Bruce slows down on Zucco to become more of a father to Dick. Zucco is about to skip town and Dick decides he's going to go after him himself. He finds him through skills that highlight his potential as Robin and tracks down Zucco. Dick is almost killed and is saved by Batman at the expense of Zucco getting away. Bruce reveals who is he is to Dick, Dick becomes his ward/son and Dick does the same solemn vow that Bruce did and becomes Robin.

That's pretty much my ideal origin and relationship starting point for Dick. It's comics so my suspension of disbelief is already a solid brick wall, the idea of a really young kid becoming a sidekick doesn't take much for me. You can give me most wacky or crazy origins and I'll say okay. What I find more important are the character beats and relationship building. A story is only as good as the characters in it, the crazy and weird are just a part of it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Looking at old JSA stuff I want Nightwing to for a team with Power Girl and Star Spangled Kid With The Super Squad. Add the Super Friends characters and you have a diverse and unique team not held down by previous stories. The only thing is the Justice League and their pantheon, but if they could focus on civilization and Building relationships Hidden Realm/Solar System Civilization.


Isn't the Star-Spangled Kid dead?

----------


## BloodOps

Thank god that hack Snyder isn't in charge of his DC universe anymore. Having Dick die as Robin is so freaking stupid.

----------


## Robotman

> Thank god that hack Snyder isn't in charge of his DC universe anymore. Having Dick die as Robin is so freaking stupid.


Another reason why starting the DCEU with a version of Batman similar to the Dark Knight was a terrible idea.

----------


## OWL45

> Thank god that hack Snyder isn't in charge of his DC universe anymore. Having Dick die as Robin is so freaking stupid.


That is so ludicrous of Syders part. Then people want to complain and be up in arms about Dick in the new Titans show where he will actually be featured and have a prominent role.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Thank god that hack Snyder isn't in charge of his DC universe anymore. Having Dick die as Robin is so freaking stupid.


it realy is Dick was bruce biggest and most long lasting accomplishment
he saved that child and put him on the right path. So to have him fail so earl in his career no wonder we ended up with dark bruce in DOJ

----------


## yohyoi

It's so damn hard being a Dick Grayson fan. No matter how much we love him. No matter how many support him. DC will always treat him as 2nd class. He will always be a supporting character in the grand scheme. Never reaching his true potential because DC will never let it. How many decades has he exist? How many stories did he have? I'm tired of waiting. It's always one step forward, two steps back. It's hard to have hope for things to improve.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's so damn hard being a Dick Grayson fan. No matter how much we love him. No matter how many support him. DC will always treat him as 2nd class. He will always be a supporting character in the grand scheme. Never reaching his true potential because DC will never let it. How many decades has he exist? How many stories did he have? I'm tired of waiting. It's always one step forward, two steps back. It's hard to have hope for things to improve.


DC is too focused on its "Trinity" to pay that much attention to any other characters.  That's why Marvel has trampled it in the mud on the silver screen.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

But Warner never allowed Snyder to specify Robin's name even in BvS which was under his full control. Snyder's gimmick had been shot down since the beginning lol. That's also the reason why the gravestone of Richard Grayson didn't appear in the movie if you think about it.

And don't forget, Nightwing's movie was announced before Snyder got removed from DCEU, which clearly showed the creativity divergence between Warner and Snyder. So why bother complaining about the director who is desperately trying to mess up with DCEU because they kicked him out lol.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Okay so... we know that Robin was first created as a kid appeal character, and there's no need for any more justification than that because it's a comic book, but today... starting at about the 80s? They started to make Batman more realistic, gritty and darker, and with more realism. They want Batman to be taken seriously. It's to the point where they don't want to use Robin at all, but in comics itself Robin is a must as a commodity. 
> 
> So my question, what were the justifications, every time they want to include a child in a dark and gritty world of Batman where the enemies are gangster and psychopaths? 
> 
> For example, Robin in Schumacher's Batman is a college student and even then he still didn't want to include him until he realized Two-Face and Riddler are too much to take on alone. 
> 
> In BTAS he's a high schooler but I don't remember the reason.
> 
> In New 52, he's a high schooler with such prodigious skills and saved his life, so he took him in begrudgingly, and there was a lot of tension before really slowly they develop respect to each other.
> ...


I love Dark Victory. That story made me regard Bruce and Dick as brothers more than father/son. They were two orphans grew up together and the ture father figure was Alfred.

----------


## Rac7d*

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/28/n...letes-twitter/

----------


## oasis1313

> Thank god that hack Snyder isn't in charge of his DC universe anymore. Having Dick die as Robin is so freaking stupid.


What?  Where did this come from?

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> What?  Where did this come from?


Here's a link to a CBR article via Twitter. 

https://twitter.com/CBR/status/1024603447163805696?s=19

----------


## Dzetoun

> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/28/n...letes-twitter/


Smart man.

----------


## Claude

For those of you who have their purchasing decisions affected by these details - Dick isn't in Batman #52, but he does make a small appearance in Deathstroke #34.

The Deathstroke story is set during the time of Tim's supposed death in "Detective Comics" - and features Dick giving the most hilariously half-arsed eulogy, before Damian points out that the first thing Dick did when he took over as Batman was to have Tim replaced.

I've got nothing against Tim, but it made me laugh.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> For those of you who have their purchasing decisions affected by these details - Dick isn't in Batman #52, but he does make a small appearance in Deathstroke #34.
> 
> The Deathstroke story is set during the time of Tim's supposed death in "Detective Comics" - and features Dick giving the most hilariously half-arsed eulogy, before Damian points out that the first thing Dick did when he took over as Batman was to have Tim replaced.
> 
> I've got nothing against Tim, but it made me laugh.


Of all people I've never thought Damian would be the one that accused Dick of replacing Tim. It's a hard choice for Dick and I thought Damian would understand. But the story is just a crossover, so whatever.

But I sorta liked the forged letter part. Just imagine the look on Damian's face when he found out hahaha.

----------


## oasis1313

> Of all people I've never thought Damian would be the one that accusing Dick of replacing Tim. It's a hard choice for Dick and I thought Damian would understand. But the story is just a crossover, so whatever.
> 
> But I sorta liked the forged letter part. Just imagine the look on Damian's face when he found out hahaha.


I'll have to take a look at it.  Why wasn't Bruce giving the eulogy, too overcome with grief for his favorite ex-Robin?  No, I don't expect Damian to understand much in the way of human emotions--he's TRYING--but he has the blunt honesty of a child and no tact whatsoever.  He likely doesn't get it that adults sometimes have to stumble their way through awkward moments.

----------


## yohyoi

Damian needed to be Robin more than Tim at that time. It gave him purpose. Dick was right. Tim needed to grow up past Robin. If Tim can't then he isn't as smart as people say he is. He needs to mature.

----------


## oasis1313

> Damian needed to be Robin more than Tim at that time. It gave him purpose. Dick was right. Tim needed to grow up past Robin. If Tim can't then he isn't as smart as people say he is. He needs to mature.


I would agree with you here.  I don't understand why Tim wants to keep the training wheels on.  He's ready for his identity--I think the silly moniker Red Robin is holding the character back and it's just DC being too lazy to do anything else with him.  Dick's decision many years ago to become his own man was done so well and painstakingly by Wolfman and Perez--it so totally sucks that DC has chosen to go with Max Allan Collins' "fouled up and fired" abortion through all these reboots.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I'll have to take a look at it.  Why wasn't Bruce giving the eulogy, too overcome with grief for his favorite ex-Robin?  No, I don't expect Damian to understand much in the way of human emotions--he's TRYING--but he has the blunt honesty of a child and no tact whatsoever.  He likely doesn't get it that adults sometimes have to stumble their way through awkward moments.


Bruce was silently standing there and staring at a photo including all the Robins and Duke. But it's not about Bruce or Tim or Damian. Characters are just characters. Just my opinion on Batfam conflict with Priest's.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Everything Tim did, Dick did it better in the 70s and 80s.Even his dramatic goodbye to Bruce in latest Rebirth. Tne reason i am not into Tim that much, is that a big part of his existence is attached with so many lies and cover-up and retcons about the previous Robins by DC and fandom like Jason was "the bad Robin" and Dick "had no personality" and "was incompetent",  and with him being higher class, destroyed one of the most interesting parts of Bruce's perspectives aka his dream to see less of the class and social imbalance. (My favorite was always that time when Bruce says Gordon that 'that boy [Jason] is more mature than both of us"  No, DC, you just dont reduce Dick's traits to 3 including his ass and Jason's to 2 while taking away Tim's core purpose itself and then lie to us that they "have no personality" compared to Tim. Tim is the most bland Robin in existence made up and he needs a crowded batfam for him to provide his help. Take that a way and we have the poor overrated book Red Robin and Rebirth and Tim stepping all over Dick, Jason and Babs in roles and skills and become Sue Tim.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Damian needed to be Robin more than Tim at that time. It gave him purpose. Dick was right. Tim needed to grow up past Robin. If Tim can't then he isn't as smart as people say he is. He needs to mature.


Sometimes you can totally understand a thing but its still hard to accept. When Dick made the choice，it's not merely between Tim and Damian，it's between Tim and Bruce Wayne's son. Given that Bruce was dead at that time，Damian was kind of like the last thing he left in the world. What could Dick do? Personally I think Tim had all the rights to feel betrayed and being angry at Dick. But the writer should understand all the emotions behind Dick's choice. Have someone else blame Dick for replacing Tim, especially Damian of all people？I dont think its a good idea.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Damian is a nice kid. He reminded me of so many grown up youngest kids including myself. He may act stupid and nobody liked him when young but when he grows up he began to realize the full scene of everyone's action and circumtances and situations in his family in the past and began to wish how things could be better and how authorized figures (Bruce and Dick here) and himself could have done things better althought they couldnt and he could be pretty harsh in words. Everyone freaks out because he blames Dick but i think it's very nice and realistic touch. I'm sure Damian would say the same thing to Bruce about firing Dick and treating him like shit  if he knew Dick's own story too.   The eldest usually doesn't make himself understood in "hey brother i know what you did" situations anymore - my eldest siblings just laugh and leave it for another time. I legit cried when my older brother really told me his full thoughts and story. The time when Bruce was dead is a difficult time for everyone.

----------


## Godlike13

Damian needed to be Robin more then Tim at the time, because at the time Dick and Damian was a far more appealing prospect as the new Batman and Robin then Dick and Tim. They needed to make Dick’s Batman his own, and something new and different then what things were from before. And Damian did just that. 

In story Damian was Bruce’s son and someone Dick was now responsible for. It was Dicks responsiblilty now to be there and save Damian, much like Bruce did for him.

----------


## oasis1313

> Everything Tim did, Dick did it better in the 70s and 80s.Even his dramatic goodbye to Bruce in latest Rebirth. Tne reason i am not into Tim that much, is that a big part of his existence is attached with so many lies and cover-up and retcons about the previous Robins by DC and fandom like Jason was "the bad Robin" and Dick "had no personality" and "was incompetent",  and with him being higher class, destroyed one of the most interesting parts of Bruce's perspectives aka his dream to see less of the class and social imbalance. (My favorite was always that time when Bruce says Gordon that 'that boy [Jason] is more mature than both of us"  No, DC, you just dont reduce Dick's traits to 3 including his ass and Jason's to 2 while taking away Tim's core purpose itself and then lie to us that they "have no personality" compared to Tim. Tim is the most bland Robin in existence made up and he needs a crowded batfam for him to provide his help. Take that a way and we have the poor overrated book Red Robin and Rebirth and Tim stepping all over Dick, Jason and Babs in roles and skills and become Sue Tim.


You've summed up my feelings about the whole thing entirely.  I would say Tim needs a crowded Batfamily so that his fanboy writers and editors can prop him up at the expense of the others.  He started out a nice--albeit creepy stalker--kid, and now he's just been handed these different abilities without ever working for them--supercomputer brain, Olympic level athlete/acrobat, world's greatest detective, cloning metahumans, chosen heir of both Batman and Ra's al Ghoul, etc etc etc.  He's a total Timmy Sue.  Without adoring fanboy writers like Tynion, maybe Tim would be more interesting if he had to work for something instead of being the Prom Queen of the Batfamily.  Dick, Jason, and Damian should NOT suffer odious comparisons in order to make Tim look so much better, smarter, wonderful-er, etc etc etc.

----------


## L.H.

Dick made the right choice, and they all know it. It was what both Tim and Damian needed. As Hurt pointed out, he redeemed Damian, he was the one who show him the way to be an hero. Such as he gave Tim the reason to step outside on his own.
Damon is just reacting. After the video, and all the things that Tim told him, he can't stand Dick saying how good Tim was. He need to say something. He took the chance to talk with his father about that video and the DNA test. 
I like Priests taking on the characters, they all are so much recognizable. I think he really understand what their feelings are.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Dick made the right choice, and they all know it. It was what both Tim and Damian needed. As Hurt pointed out, he redeemed Damian, he was the one who show him the way to be an hero. Such as he gave Tim the reason to step outside on his own.
> Damon is just reacting. After the video, and all the things that Tim told him, he can't stand Dick saying how good Tim was. He need to say something. He took the chance to talk with his father about that video and the DNA test. 
> I like Priests taking on the characters, they all are so much recognizable. I think he really understand what their feelings are.


That's a good take. Thanks, guess I should re-read the whole arc.

----------


## yohyoi

With the new Bat family costume designs, I'm actually thankful of the new Titans design. Blue Nightwing is perfect. It doesn't need a major change. Only the fingerstripes is missing.

----------


## yohyoi

Also Jason is bald now. He looks like a henchman or part of the Wrecking Crew. Wacky. Yup, Blue Nightwing is perfect. Perfect.

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## byrd156

> With the new Bat family costume designs, I'm actually thankful of the new Titans design. Blue Nightwing is perfect. It doesn't need a major change. Only the fingerstripes is missing.


Jason's redesign is hilarious. He looks like a 90s biker character.

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## dropkickjake

> With the new Bat family costume designs, I'm actually thankful of the new Titans design. Blue Nightwing is perfect. It doesn't need a major change. Only the fingerstripes is missing.


Where can I see this?

----------


## oasis1313

> With the new Bat family costume designs, I'm actually thankful of the new Titans design. Blue Nightwing is perfect. It doesn't need a major change. Only the fingerstripes is missing.


You got a link to these?  Thanks!

----------


## L.H.

> Where can I see this?


And @oasis1313

You can find the new Jason look on DCNation #3 and in his own appreciation thread.

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## L.H.

> Where can I see this?


And @oasis1313

You can find the Jason's new look on DCNation #3 and in his own appreciation thread.

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## Ascended

Wait, Dick has a new costume? Anyone have a link or photo?

Haven't made it to the LCS the last week or two, and not gonna make it down for a while yet (stupid work). Anyone got a scan they can share?

----------


## Lazurus33

DC Explains Why Nightwing is The Most Important Hero

https://screenrant.com/nightwing-bes...perhero-comic/

----------


## Lazurus33

Zack Snyder Confirms Joker Killed Dick Grayson Robin in the DCEU

https://screenrant.com/zack-snyder-d...bin-dead-dceu/

----------


## oasis1313

> Zack Snyder Confirms Joker Killed Dick Grayson Robin in the DCEU
> 
> https://screenrant.com/zack-snyder-d...bin-dead-dceu/


Isn't Zach fired yet?

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Isn't Zach fired yet?


Yes. He is just trying to mess with Warner because they kicked him out.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

And I think this is the new uniform @yohyoi referred to：
F8B31453-36E6-4C59-9C20-846A96ABF285.jpg

----------


## phantom1592

> Everything Tim did, Dick did it better in the 70s and 80s.Even his dramatic goodbye to Bruce in latest Rebirth. Tne reason i am not into Tim that much, is that a big part of his existence is attached with so many lies and cover-up and retcons about the previous Robins by DC and fandom like Jason was "the bad Robin" and Dick "had no personality" and "was incompetent",  and with him being higher class, destroyed one of the most interesting parts of Bruce's perspectives aka his dream to see less of the class and social imbalance. (My favorite was always that time when Bruce says Gordon that 'that boy [Jason] is more mature than both of us"  No, DC, you just dont reduce Dick's traits to 3 including his ass and Jason's to 2 while taking away Tim's core purpose itself and then lie to us that they "have no personality" compared to Tim. Tim is the most bland Robin in existence made up and he needs a crowded batfam for him to provide his help. Take that a way and we have the poor overrated book Red Robin and Rebirth and Tim stepping all over Dick, Jason and Babs in roles and skills and become Sue Tim.


I know there was a lot of Dick's college years I've missed... but one thing I LOVED about Tim, was that he was 'the normal teenager'. He went to school, he had civilian friends that he'd play D&D with on weekends... or make up excuses why he couldn't because of the robin gig... he had normal girlfriends... NONE of which I ever saw with Dick in the 70's and 80's. 

Now I always loved Dick's Robin as much as the next fan, but he seemed fast following the 'costume is the real identity' trope that Bruce thinks. He was Robin.. his friends were the Titans, his dad was Batman, His crush/partner was Batgirl.... his civilian life was rare. I know he went to college for a while, but that only seemed to get mentioned as an excuse of 1) why he wasn't around much, and 2) How much he looked forward to getting back in the cape on breaks. 





> You've summed up my feelings about the whole thing entirely.  I would say Tim needs a crowded Batfamily so that his fanboy writers and editors can prop him up at the expense of the others.  He started out a nice--albeit creepy stalker--kid, and now he's just been handed these different abilities without ever working for them--supercomputer brain, Olympic level athlete/acrobat, world's greatest detective, cloning metahumans, chosen heir of both Batman and Ra's al Ghoul, etc etc etc.  He's a total Timmy Sue.  Without adoring fanboy writers like Tynion, maybe Tim would be more interesting if he had to work for something instead of being the Prom Queen of the Batfamily.  Dick, Jason, and Damian should NOT suffer odious comparisons in order to make Tim look so much better, smarter, wonderful-er, etc etc etc.


I'm the opposite. All that crap has been added on to him BECAUSE the batfamily is too crowded. When it was just Batman, Nightwing and a dead Jason... Tim was able to shine on his own and had plenty of flaws. If anything he was constantly low self-esteem about whether he could compete with Dick and the ghost...  He got to focus on detective skills on his own... but when you jumped to Nightwing's book... he was doing the same stuff. They were BOTH trained by the world's greatest detective so I love when any of the Robins use their brains. He focused on computer stuff JUST as the internet was becoming a thing... but Oracle was still better... 

Adding in 3 batgirls, another robin, Signal and Azrael... now they're scrambling to find ANYTHING to keep him relevant. 






> Dick made the right choice, and they all know it. It was what both Tim and Damian needed. As Hurt pointed out, he redeemed Damian, he was the one who show him the way to be an hero. Such as he gave Tim the reason to step outside on his own.
> .


That only assumes that there was anything to step outside for! Robin was never meant to be a training program for future heroes. Robin is a hero in his own right. Earth 2 Dick Grayson kept the Robin identity until adulthood and was proud to do it. With all the decades of 'You're not a sidekick, you're a partner' talk between Batman and Robin... Getting the title yanked away for a murderer was pretty low. 

Did Damian need to be redeemed? Maybe?? Maybe he needed to be locked in a dark hole to rot... but if they DO decide to try to train him, He should have gotten his own title.

----------


## Restingvoice

> And I think this is the new uniform @yohyoi referred to：
> F8B31453-36E6-4C59-9C20-846A96ABF285.jpg


I'm not... really seeing... which part is new? ...Oh, the chest part got thick, and there's no more little birdie. 

Yea this is better. The old chest line's too thin

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Before the Teen Titans Dick Grayson DID! Have normal girlfriend/interests in Marjory Davenport, Vera Lovely etc. and attended High School participating in school plays and having normal people. After the Titans they consumed most of his time Marv Wolfman had him drop out and started the rift with Batman and since the added a new Robin DC has never allowed a reboot to start with Dick Grayson as Robin he has been stuck as Nightwing when reality starts since COIE.

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## L.H.

> That only assumes that there was anything to step outside for! Robin was never meant to be a training program for future heroes. Robin is a hero in his own right. Earth 2 Dick Grayson kept the Robin identity until adulthood and was proud to do it. With all the decades of 'You're not a sidekick, you're a partner' talk between Batman and Robin... Getting the title yanked away for a murderer was pretty low. 
> 
> Did Damian need to be redeemed? Maybe?? Maybe he needed to be locked in a dark hole to rot... but if they DO decide to try to train him, He should have gotten his own title.


Tim always loved Robin, way before becoming him, and probably he never wanted to go further, that's why he kinda kept the name. But, what could have added to the character being Dick's partner again? He became Red Robin and started his search for Bruce, something that couldn't have done being Batman's partner.
Being Robin is great, growing up and changing identity is great too. As you pointed out, in the old Earth 2 Dick never leaved the Robin mantle... that's why we don't have a Tim Drake there. 
I get he was totally disappointed when Dick chose Damian, but, reading Reb Robin, it's clear that in the end he understood why he did that. He is smart enough, and enough a hero to understood that Damian needed to be saved. He was Bruce's son, after all. A kid who lost everything because he chose to follow his father path. Which kind of hero are you if you refuse to save someone? He loose the mantle for someone else sake, he went through his own path and showed he was right about Bruce being alive. I really don't get what's wrong with that.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I'm not... really seeing... which part is new? ...Oh, the chest part got thick, and there's no more little birdie. 
> 
> Yea this is better. The old chest line's too thin


I think the new part is the blue stripe on his forearms. 

But that is a cover of Titans#24. Based on the leaks from Amancay Nahuelpan's Twitter, Dick's uniform remains the same in Nightwing.
4CABA404-48BB-4B84-8A2D-E5E1A68D22CC.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

> Did Damian need to be redeemed? Maybe?? Maybe he needed to be locked in a dark hole to rot... but if they DO decide to try to train him, He should have gotten his own title.



Dick made the right choice. What was Robin created for? What was it used for in the case of Dick, Jason and Damian? Like a friend who uses your spare bed for storage Tim's writer's altered the purpose of the mantle to suit their needs.

When the time arose for Robin to do what it was created for and designed to do I personally was disappointed to find Tim acting more like an unfeeling child and less like a hero.

The only thing I disagree with was the way it was sprung on Tim with Damian already in uniform.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Tim always loved Robin, way before becoming him, and probably he never wanted to go further, that's why he kinda kept the name. But, what could have added to the character being Dick's partner again? He became Red Robin and started his search for Bruce, something that couldn't have done being Batman's partner.
> Being Robin is great, growing up and changing identity is great too. As you pointed out, in the old Earth 2 Dick never leaved the Robin mantle... that's why we don't have a Tim Drake there. 
> I get he was totally disappointed when Dick chose Damian, but, reading Reb Robin, it's clear that in the end he understood why he did that. He is smart enough, and enough a hero to understood that Damian needed to be saved. He was Bruce's son, after all. A kid who lost everything because he chose to follow his father path. Which kind of hero are you if you refuse to save someone? He loose the mantle for someone else sake, he went through his own path and showed he was right about Bruce being alive. I really don't get what's wrong with that.


There's nothing wrong with it. If Red Robin was a success/ had a regular book then none of these fans would be complaining.
It's just sour grapes that Tim as Red Robin took off then dropped back down to earth so some blame it on him not being Robin and Damian.

Understandable but petty. Robin doesn't belong to Tim and never did.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Jason's redesign is hilarious. He looks like a 90s biker character.


Someone on another thread just pointed out that he's got Dick's new YJ mask.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, so now it's not Bucky's mask any longer? 

 :Wink:

----------


## CPSparkles

> DC Explains Why Nightwing is The Most Important Hero
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-bes...perhero-comic/


Now DC I just Actions to back up your words. I Know Dick was MVP no 2 at SDCC but until the movie is out and he [and his team] get better treatment in the Titans comics then it's just words.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Oh, so now it's not Bucky's mask any longer?


Can't it be both?  I saw the Bucky before I saw the YJ Dick to be honest.

Everybody getting some of that Bucky action  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## L.H.

> There's nothing wrong with it. If Red Robin was a success/ had a regular book then none of these fans would be complaining.
> It's just sour grapes that Tim as Red Robin took off then dropped back down to earth so some blame it on him not being Robin and Damian.
> 
> Understandable but petty. Robin doesn't belong to Tim and never did.


Well, we still don't know how long Damian is going to be Robin. 
It's kinda sad what's happening to Tim, but it's not Damian or Dick' fault... It's like I'm gonna blame the JL or Dick himself for Abnett's bad writing. 
What I like in Priest writing is that he understands the character's feeling, and I totally agree with his taken of the whole batfam (we're still missing his Jay, Babs, Cass and Steph, but I'm sure he can catch their voice too). I want him to write more about them, especially Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, we still don't know how long Damian is going to be Robin. 
> It's kinda sad what's happening to Tim, but it's not Damian or Dick' fault... It's like I'm gonna blame the JL or Dick himself for Abnett's bad writing. 
> What I like in Priest writing is that he understands the character's feeling, and I totally agree with his taken of the whole batfam (we're still missing his Jay, Babs, Cass and Steph, but I'm sure he can catch their voice too). I want him to write more about them, especially Dick.


I don't see a new robin for a good while, esp in this age where heroes don't age, he will have the mantle for quite some time
Its not Damian or Dick fault that Tim has no wher to go, cant forge his brand it happens to a lot of heroes their is not enough spotlight

----------


## Ascended

> I think the new part is the blue stripe on his forearms. 
> 
> But that is a cover of Titans#24. Based on the leaks from Amancay Nahuelpan's Twitter, Dick's uniform remains the same in Nightwing.


....*Is* that a new costume? I thought he'd had the blue diagonal bits on his forearms and legs since Rebirth? 

It's a fine variation on Dick's suit either way. Nightwing's got one of the best costumes at DC I think, and there's a lot of ways to tweak it without even coming close to it being unrecognizable or off-base. But honestly, I was hoping for something a little different this time. A bigger risk and change.

Honestly, that page someone posted a page or two back where Dick is all "I'm gonna fight crime and look friggin fabulous while I do it and you can't stop me, Bruce!" made me realize that Dick really does have a flamboyant sense of style. From Robin with the short shorts and pixie boots to the Discowing costume......dude's got flair. As much as I love the black-blue suit we've had since Dixon (just shortly before actually) I'd like to see a little more of that in his costume.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> ....*Is* that a new costume? I thought he'd had the blue diagonal bits on his forearms and legs since Rebirth? 
> 
> It's a fine variation on Dick's suit either way. Nightwing's got one of the best costumes at DC I think, and there's a lot of ways to tweak it without even coming close to it being unrecognizable or off-base. But honestly, I was hoping for something a little different this time. A bigger risk and change.
> 
> Honestly, that page someone posted a page or two back where Dick is all "I'm gonna fight crime and look friggin fabulous while I do it and you can't stop me, Bruce!" made me realize that Dick really does have a flamboyant sense of style. From Robin with the short shorts and pixie boots to the Discowing costume......dude's got flair. As much as I love the black-blue suit we've had since Dixon (just shortly before actually) I'd like to see a little more of that in his costume.


nah，pretty sure the alteration on his forearms wasn't there.

According to DC's current aesthetic theory like giving Red Hood a hoodie because 'that is in his name!',  you know what they will give Dick if fans ask for some significant change of his uniform right？ :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think the new part is the blue stripe on his forearms. 
> 
> But that is a cover of Titans#24. Based on the leaks from Amancay Nahuelpan's Twitter, Dick's uniform remains the same in Nightwing.
> 4CABA404-48BB-4B84-8A2D-E5E1A68D22CC.jpg


Oh, there's the chest birdie, but yeah, the chest line is thicker, more similar to the classic costume. The Rebirth design by Javier Fernandez has a really thin line and people commented on it back then.

5394460-4c0b56bcc49c44c825b69eeadda8570a.jpg

It also didn't have arm stripes.

So at this point, Dick has gone through finger stripes, hip stripes, shin stripes and arm stripes. Which stripes will they try next?




> nah，pretty sure the alteration on his forearms wasn't there.
> 
> According to DC's current aesthetic theory like giving Red Hood a hoodie because 'that is in his name!',  you know what they will give Dick if fans ask for some significant change of his uniform right？


Dick stripes! That's it!

No... wait... they already gave him crotch arrow.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well, we still don't know how long Damian is going to be Robin. 
> It's kinda sad what's happening to Tim, but it's not Damian or Dick' fault... It's like I'm gonna blame the JL or Dick himself for Abnett's bad writing. 
> What I like in Priest writing is that he understands the character's feeling, and I totally agree with his taken of the whole batfam (we're still missing his Jay, Babs, Cass and Steph, but I'm sure he can catch their voice too). I want him to write more about them, especially Dick.


We don't how long Damian will be Robin but we know he has already been replaced. I'm not a Signal Fan but I don't blame him for Damian being exciled to the Superman office just like I don't blame Damian for Tim's plight.

Characters have to stand by their own merit. Robin only ever belonged to Dick. Everyone else was/is just a place holder.

Damian hasn't been under the Bat office since before the nu52. Tim has been Bruce's partner for the last 2 years now so it's stupid and false for people to keep blaming Damian. Trends and tastes have changed. We are no longer in the 90's maybe Tim just isn't as interesting, as relatable or as appealing as he once was.

I like Priest writing too but I'm not sure if everyone gets it. He keeps characterisations too close to the edge. It's easy to misunderstand him.

----------


## CPSparkles

@RestingVoice   Butt stripes?

----------


## Rac7d*

> We don't how long Damian will be Robin but we know he has already been replaced. I'm not a Signal Fan but I don't blame him for Damian being exciled to the Superman office just like I don't blame Damian for Tim's plight.
> 
> Characters have to stand by their own merit. Robin only ever belonged to Dick. Everyone else was/is just a place holder.
> 
> Damian hasn't been under the Bat office since before the nu52. Tim has been Bruce's partner for the last 2 years now so it's stupid and false for people to keep blaming Damian. Trends and tastes have changed. We are no longer in the 90's maybe Tim just isn't as interesting, as relatable or as appealing as he once was.
> 
> I like Priest writing too but I'm not sure if everyone gets it. He keeps characterisations too close to the edge. It's easy to misunderstand him.


Signal is not a replacements, as much as he feel like token for the batfamily
Lucious and family do not show up often

----------


## Rac7d*

> We don't how long Damian will be Robin but we know he has already been replaced. I'm not a Signal Fan but I don't blame him for Damian being exciled to the Superman office just like I don't blame Damian for Tim's plight.
> 
> Characters have to stand by their own merit. Robin only ever belonged to Dick. Everyone else was/is just a place holder.
> 
> Damian hasn't been under the Bat office since before the nu52. Tim has been Bruce's partner for the last 2 years now so it's stupid and false for people to keep blaming Damian. Trends and tastes have changed. We are no longer in the 90's maybe Tim just isn't as interesting, as relatable or as appealing as he once was.
> 
> I like Priest writing too but I'm not sure if everyone gets it. He keeps characterisations too close to the edge. It's easy to misunderstand him.


Signal is not a replacements, as much as he feel like token for the batfamily
Lucious and family do not show up often

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Oh, there's the chest birdie, but yeah, the chest line is thicker, more similar to the classic costume. The Rebirth design by Javier Fernandez has a really thin line and people commented on it back then.
> 
> Attachment 68994
> 
> It also didn't have arm stripes.
> 
> So at this point, Dick has gone through finger stripes, hip stripes, shin stripes and arm stripes. Which stripes will they try next?
> 
> 
> ...


lmao I was about to say a pair of wings but obviously your idea is of much more creativity. Bravo. :Big Grin:

----------


## Smilingblade

Is anyone else hyped for Nightwing in Young Justice: Outsiders?? I'm in love with his costume, from the utility belt to the symbol... It's perfect!

----------


## Restingvoice

> lmao I was about to say a pair of wings but obviously your idea is of much more creativity. Bravo.


Well they already did that too, most popular in the animated series including Young Justice

They did physical wings too

Nightwing_spreads_wings.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> @RestingVoice   Butt stripes?


I actually browse it for kicks to see it's been done, and...

NEW-52-NIGHTWING.jpg

The Arkham game version of New 52 Nightwing apparently has his hip stripes go all the way behind. The original Brett Booth version was only like pasties at the hips. Like, it's not exactly butt stripes but low enough.

The heck am I doing

----------


## jbmasta

> Signal is not a replacements, as much as he feel like token for the batfamily
> Lucious and family do not show up often


Is Duke even in any titles going forward? As far as his previous storylines are concerned, he comes off more as a plot device than a character in his own right or at least a consistent character.

----------


## Pohzee

On the topic of Nightwing costumes and redesigns, I'll weigh in and say that the perfect Nightwing suit is the one from the Animated Series. The bird symbol has become so strongly tied to Nightwing's identity that it is the primary form of Nightwing merch despite not making it into the comics until Rebirth. And for my money, any deviations that move to complicate the suit only make it all the worse. Boot stripes. Gloves stripes. Belts. Finger stripes. I don't like none of it. Simplify.



[IMG]https://i.*****.com/vi/CEEWsk_-XbA/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Is anyone else hyped for Nightwing in Young Justice: Outsiders?? I'm in love with his costume, from the utility belt to the symbol... It's perfect!


Personally I prefer this one：
41884055-7482-422F-B5F6-EC49B76FF0DC.jpg

simple but dangerous and sexy :Wink:  It's a shame that Dick's pupils seems are brown rather than blue in YJ season 3. kind of a waste of the new mask.

----------


## oasis1313

> Is Duke even in any titles going forward? As far as his previous storylines are concerned, he comes off more as a plot device than a character in his own right or at least a consistent character.


I hope he spins off into his own solo title.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Well they already did that too, most popular in the animated series including Young Justice
> 
> They did physical wings too
> 
> Nightwing_spreads_wings.jpg


I cant help but laugh at the scene every time I see it. It's one of the most hilarious moments in the cartoon.

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## oasis1313

> I cant help but laugh at the scene every time I see it. It's one of the most hilarious moments in the cartoon.


Looks like a rooster in the morning.

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## Matt

There is a notion that rather large threads may contribute to server load. As such, we are experimenting with closing existing threads to see if it helps matters.
Feel free to start a new thread on the same topic.

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