# Comics  > Batman >  Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin Appreciation 2018

## godisawesome

Don't worry. I gots it.

So, now that we're back, anybody else wondering whether Eternal's  Tim stories and the Titans relaunch might mean that Tim's back in Batbooks custody? It seemed pretty clear he was firmly under Teen Titans control for the last two years, which is ironic considering his history of making Young Justice follow the Bat-books' directives.

I'm hoping so. I just want someone who writes Gotham stories first and foremost to control Tim's fate.

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## Penguin Truth

I'd like to see him take a bigger role in the Bat books again myself, even if it's mostly helping to mentor Harper Row. With Babs as Batgirl instead of Oracle, maybe Tim can be the tech guy, though I love seeing him in action.

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## godisawesome

His appearance in Batmna Eternal 2 did feature his Bo staff again, which made me smile. I don't mind the wings, I just think trying to make them a distinct weapon of his is stupid when the staff is simple and elegant.

Also, I got pictures! 
image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg

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## JasonTodd428

I'd like to see him have a bigger roll in the Batbooks as well. I've really been missing that aspect most of all.

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## godisawesome

The Eternal previews mention him and Harper Rowe hanging out. He's probably one of the sidekicks training her to fight. It'll be interesting to see him play the mentor role if that happens.

Also, more pics:
image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

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## Trevel8182

I'm just glad are boy Tim is finally in some good hands. :Big Grin:  Thank God for whoever cancelled Teen Titans and put Tim in this book. It's so great to finally be excited to be reading something good with Tim in it in the New 52.

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## Arnoldoaad

I would love to see more about Tim Drake´s time as not-Robin

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## Jeff Brady

Okay, the Pre-52 *Intro to Tim Drake Reading List*:

1. His first appearance was a cameo in Batman #436, part of the Year Three storyline.

2. A Lonely Place of Dying (Batman #440-442, New Titans #60-61. Reprinted with Death in the Family in a DC Comics Library hardcover)

3. New Titans #65 - Grayson trains Tim in the art of detective work. (not collected anywhere to my knowledge)

4. Rites of Passage - Detective Comics 618-621 (collected in Robin: Tragedy & Triumph)

5. Identity Crisis - Batman 455-457 (collected in Robin: A Hero Reborn)

6. Robin #1-5, first miniseries (collected in Robin: A Hero Reborn)

7. Batman 465-470

8. Detective Comics 635-637

9. Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1-4, second miniseries (collected in Robin: Tragedy & Triumph)

10. Batman 480

11. Detective 644-649 (Spoiler debuts in 647. Get 650, too; it's pretty fun.)

12. Robin III: Cry of the Huntress #1-6, third miniseries

13. Superman #70, Superman: The Man of Steel #14 - Tim & Superman vs Vampires.

14. Knightfall

15. Robin ongoing series #0, 1-128, and its annual specials (the title obviously continues, I stopped reading because of the miserable War Games arcs. Issues 1-6 collected in Flying Solo.)

16. Showcase '93 #5, 11-12 (#5 crosses over with the ongoing Robin series, IIRC.)

17. Showcase '94 #5-6

18. Superboy & Robin: World's Finest III

19. Robin Plus #1: Impulse

20. Robin Plus #2: Fang

21. Robin & Argent Double Shot

22. Robin 80 Page Giant(s)

23. [Girl-Frenzy] Young Justice: The Secret

24. JLA: World Without Grownups (There is a recent reprint of this 2-issue miniseries in DC Comics Presents: Young Justice #1.)

25. Young Justice (the original series by Peter David & Todd Nauck, not the one based on the cartoon.)

26. Sins of Youth: a Young Justice event with a bunch of special issues.

27. Other YJ specials: 80-Page Giant, Our World at War, No Man's Land, Secret Files. Some of these are reprinted in DC Comics Presents: Young Justice #2 & 3.

28. Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day. I don't recommend this at all, because of its misery, shock value, and pointless tragedy rolled into one. But it leads into the next Teen Titans series.

29. Teen Titans #1-8. This is the best the series gets, but that's damning with faint praise.

30. Red Robin (of course)

31. Not related to Tim Drake in any way, but really great on its own: Robin 3000, a 2-issue miniseries by the late Byron Preiss and P. Craig Russell.

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## Teacosy

He NEEDS his own book, surely?!

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## Tim Drake

Hopefully after Eternal, a solo book will happen, there can never be enough Tim Drake.

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## oasis1313

> Hopefully after Eternal, a solo book will happen, there can never be enough Tim Drake.


Hi, Mr. Didio!

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## duhu1148

So is Tim written better in Eternal?

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## javi150190

next issue is supposedly centered on him meeting up with the Row siblings

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## Ebon

> Hopefully after Eternal, a solo book will happen, there can never be enough Tim Drake.


Perhaps, perhaps not....  :Frown: 



I don't think that'll come to pass since they JUST solicited a continuing book with him on the cover, but who knows nowadays?

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## Ebon

> So is Tim written better in Eternal?


In four issues he's been in, like a half-page of him getting the news and sparring with robots he built. Nothing to really base anything on, yet.

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## Trevel8182

Tim Drake, Total Stud!

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## HunterX

> Perhaps, perhaps not.... 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that'll come to pass since they JUST solicited a continuing book with him on the cover, but who knows nowadays?


Awesome image. Which issue is this?

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## Tim Drake

> Awesome image. Which issue is this?


The image is from issue 6 of Futures End. Red Robin is apparently going to die in the possible future which will be depicted in Futures End.

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## Batman Fan

> Don't worry. I gots it.
> 
> So, now that we're back, anybody else wondering whether Eternal's  Tim stories and the Titans relaunch might mean that Tim's back in Batbooks custody? It seemed pretty clear he was firmly under Teen Titans control for the last two years, which is ironic considering his history of making Young Justice follow the Bat-books' directives.
> 
> I'm hoping so. I just want someone who writes Gotham stories first and foremost to control Tim's fate.


I hope so too. Looking forward to his return in Batman Eternal.

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## Pharozonk

Dang, Cassandra is really feeling up on Tim in that pic.  :EEK!:

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## Trevel8182

Damn right she is! She wants that which is unclaimable. 



I think Blade said it best  "Some mother$!#%&*@ are always trying to ice skate uphill." :-)

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## Tim Drake

Tim Drake is one smooth fellow, the babes are sticking to him like glue.

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## javi150190

Batman Eternal #5 Preview

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## oasis1313

I like the cowl look.

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## UltimateTy

> Damn right she is! She wants that which is unclaimable. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Blade said it best  "Some mother$!#%&*@ are always trying to ice skate uphill." :-)


Tim is the ultimate player haha, I was actually shipping him and Rose for a second.

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## godisawesome

> I like the cowl look.


I _love_ the cowl look. It gives him a unique profile among the Robins, kind of like Jason's helmet or Damian's hood. It also plays up the idea that Tim really wants to protect his noggin, both because it's his greatest asset and because he's not the best fighter in the family.

Give it to a good artist like Marcus To and you can see how emotive a cowl can be.

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## oasis1313

I thought Tim was supposed to be gay,

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## Trevel8182

> I thought Tim was supposed to be gay,


Knowing the New 52 that wouldn't of been surprising but thankfully no. From the pictures I've posted, It's clearly shows that more women have tried to get in Tim's pants then any other member of the Bat-Family, even women from other reality think Tim's a total stud. Tim just values his virginity for some reason I don't remember very well but I think it was somewhere in the Chuck Dixon run.

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## godisawesome

It's kind of a hilarious situation. There's an article on a comic site about how Tim kind of has a three part reputation in comics.

 1) He was pretty much a perpetually confirmed virgin in the pre-Flashpoint continuity, at least in part because Chuck Dixon, who pretty much defined the character, felt there was something wrong with giving an underage character an active sex life (gee, I wonder why) and wrote the character as being uber-responsible for his age, so he actually turned down sex with one girlfriend because he didn't they ether of them were ready. Judging from the context of the issue, he was right.

2) Not being a horn dog like Dick later combined with his characterization of an emotionally traumatized survivor of his friends' and parents' deaths, making him a woobie of epic proportions. Then when Geoff Johns ratcheted up the angst in Teen Titans and started the very soapy "Imma clone my best bud" storyline, yaoi fan girls went _nuts_. They're still a minority, but they're very vocal and love to write fanfiction. You have to wade through about 3 or 4 of these stories if you want a straight Tim Drake story.

3) Hilariously, Tim's love live seems set up for numerous ladies being attracted to him while also for some reason trying to hurt him. Steph hit him in the face with a brick and later accidentally punched him in the face. Dava was a magic zombie trying to kill Robin while dating Tim Drake. Secret had a crush on him that turned into a "destroy all Young Justice." Both Lynxes tried to beat him down before or after flirting with him, though the second was much more _enthusiastic_ about the make-out thing than the former. Jubilee was compelled by the physical manifestation of the Marvel universe to defeat him, but she still liked him enough to fall for him in a few separated panels. He's seen both Promise and her sister nude and they've both tried to hurt him.  And then there's the times he's been kiss ambushed by Steph, Tam, and Arrowette.

All in all, it's a shame Lobdell shoved in that Trigon rape into Teen Titans and tried to sweep it under the rug afterwards. FabNic obviously thought it would be a bigger moment and wrote his part of the story to let the audience know something was deeply wrong with Tim. And then Lobdell apparently figured "nah" and tried to pull a Marvel and justify the relationship and hook them up again.

Yuck.

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## Vinsanity

I like the Wonder Girl / Red Robin relationship in New 52. I even like Red Robin in New52 because he is a cocky jerk which is awesome. He is Batman's sidekick, so naturally you would think he is cocky and arrogant.

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## Tim Drake

I keep hoping that some future comic will reveal that Tim's viginity is intact, and that he didn't lose it through that Trigon rape shit that happened in Teen Titans. They could say it stopped with kissing or dry humping.

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## stick0

I wish New 52 would stayed to the old Tim's story. Felt New 52 didn't care much about Darke's fan.

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## Punisher007

I'm curious/excited to see Tim appear in Eternal.

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## godisawesome

Or at least approached it the same way they did Jason and Dick's. Both of those guys got remote changes and updates; Tim got an overhaul from an overworked writer.

I'm still thinking Lobdell might modify or reverse his earlier story in that Secret Origins issue.

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## Tim Drake

> I'm still thinking Lobdell might modify or reverse his earlier story in that Secret Origins issue.


God I hope so, Teen Titans 0 was an atrocity of an issue and it gave Tim a shitty back story.

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## Trevel8182

> Or at least approached it the same way they did Jason and Dick's. Both of those guys got remote changes and updates; Tim got an overhaul from an overworked writer.
> 
> I'm still thinking Lobdell might modify or reverse his earlier story in that Secret Origins issue.


Please! Please! Please! Make this happen. Lobdell ruined Tim in the new 52. That origin is so awful and it takes so much away from what I loved about his character pre-new 52. I mean if you read into that story you can probably see the fact that Tim was kinda trying to kinda kill his parents so Batman could adopt him. :Mad:

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## JaggedFel

> I wish New 52 would stayed to the old Tim's story. Felt New 52 didn't care much about Darke's fan.


Gee whatever gave u that impression. Look on the bright side at least he has friends whereas Dick had his entire social network erased and all his history of leadership

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## UltimateTy

> Please! Please! Please! Make this happen. Lobdell ruined Tim in the new 52. That origin is so awful and it takes so much away from what I loved about his character pre-new 52. *I mean if you read into that story you can probably see the fact that Tim was kinda trying to kinda kill his parents so Batman could adopt him.*


I wouldn't say kill but it did read like he wanted to get rid of them so he could be with Batman

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## oasis1313

> I wouldn't say kill but it did read like he wanted to get rid of them so he could be with Batman


What issue was that?  I think Tim would make a great Menendez-type murderer.  So in the new 52, we have no adopted sons and one currently-dead biological son (unless it's revealed later that Talia got knocked up by some other guy instead of Bruce)?

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## Darkspellmaster

Gotta agree on getting rid of the whole issue 0 backstory, that was some bad writing there and I know that Scott can do a hell of a lot better than that. Triggon thing needs to be addressed, but it seems with Teen Titans that doesn't happen, namely when it comes to robins. After all Dick got suckered into sleeping with one of his team mates way back when when said team mate (a shape shifter) turned into Starfire (who I think at the time they were engaged or nearly so?) and he got blamed for it. 

It would be interesting if that story that Tim told was something totally made up as a cover to something, and it turns out that he has (had?) good parents but there was something that happened so he wound up with Batman. 

I still want the REAL Bart to show up along wit Kon and the three of them have some fun adventures. Oh and uh, can we please have a spoiler and Robin adventure? 

Anyone else think that the lighting in those panels make tim's outfit look greenish some what? Sort of like his old robin costume.

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## -PT-

That scares me.

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## Darkspellmaster

> That scares me.


What scares you?

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## Tim Drake

> That scares me.


Don't be scared bro, never be scared.

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## Pharozonk

Tim's origin needs to be re-done. I refuse to accept the Nu52 version of him since he isn't even the same character anymore.

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## oasis1313

> I wouldn't say kill but it did read like he wanted to get rid of them so he could be with Batman


Where was this at?  Even in the Old 52, Timmy couldn't WAIT to start referring to himself as "Tim Wayne."

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## godisawesome

It's context in the #0 issue of Teen Titans, and Tim definitely held off on the Wayne moniker and adoption for at least one solid year and then some in Pre-Flashpoint continuity. And even then, he really only got obsessed with the name when Bruce died again, which makes sense, as that's his fourth parental figure in that history to bite the dust; you'd want to hold onto some stability under that trauma, and the name acknowledges his brotherhood to Dick and the rest of the family.

And the #0 issue seemed to be more the car wreck of an over-worked Lobdell. He'd just come off the bloated Culling arc and was prepping for his first few issues on Superman while still writing Superboy and Red Hood and the Outlaws. I expect him to improve the story no matter what in Secret Origins. 

But the context of the issue wasn't good. Bruce doesn't want a Robin...but he's still stalking Tim. Tim's an Olympic level athlete, thus trying to steal some of Dick's thunder... But the event he's shown competing in literally doesn't exist. He's also supposed to be an unbeatable hacker...but Batman basically trolls him in a manner that seems somewhat stupid. He then displays enough skills to steal millions from Penguin...but is too stupid to try and cover his tracks, bringing hitmen down on his family. They go into witness protection...except for Tim, who actually is given a higher profile as Bruce's ward "Tim Drake" even though he's the Penguin's real target. Then he declares he's not going to be another Robin...but wears a carbon copy of the Robin costume and does the exact same job and incorporates it into his code name for no reason.

In story, he comes off as a reckless idiot who should have been sent underground with his parents, but wasn't.

And the out of world context doesn't really help. Lobdell wanted to make Tim more unique...by removing his discovering of Bruce's secret and making him a gymnast like Dick and a super-generic golden boy. Lobdell brings the parents back from the dead...but only so he can banish them again until he wants to use them as hostages. Lobdell is extremely professional when it comes to meeting editorial's demands...and somehow they feel they need to change his story without telling him here.

Seriously, the origin shows the weakness of having someone who's not a fan of the character tale a crack at him in a shifting continuity.

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## oasis1313

Super-generic golden boy is a good term for it.  I liked him when he first appeared on the scene, but he's so perfect it feels like he's one of Chris Claremont's female characters.

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## Darkspellmaster

Any thoughts on what his role could be in the new Teen Titans story? Do you think we'll see any connections to Eternal? Or does anyone think that they'll just ignore what's come before?

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## godisawesome

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the run is quietly forgotten. If I had to guess, he'll once again occupy the Bat-affiliated-leadership role that traditionally fits him. Though I wouldn't mind if say Wonder Girl was written better, became the leader, and he was more of just the smart guy with a geeky side.

And there'll probably be references to Eternal no matter what, just hopefully not every three pages. I swear, sometimes it seemed like DC was using editorial boxes in Teen Titans as advertisement spacing for other books.

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## oasis1313

The whole thing was creepy.

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## nepenthes

His little computer thing.....something like this should normally be an annoying gimmick but I thought it was used pretty reasonably in this issue. And it's obviously in his DNA anyway. 

Tim is fu***n back, folks.

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## HunterX

> His little computer thing.....something like this should normally be an annoying gimmick but I thought it was used pretty reasonably in this issue. And it's obviously in his DNA anyway. 
> 
> Tim is fu***n back, folks.


Looks great. Is this Batman Eternal #5?

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## Vexham28

> His little computer thing.....something like this should normally be an annoying gimmick but I thought it was used pretty reasonably in this issue. And it's obviously in his DNA anyway. 
> 
> Tim is fu***n back, folks.


I haven't read much of Tim in the New 52, but I'm glad he's being shown as the science/computer guy Robin, in this.

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## Tim Drake

Just now managed to read Batman Eternal #5. So fraking excited. The REAL Tim has finally appeared in the New 52.

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## Punisher007

Yes, Tim was great there.  I do wish that the other Bat-family members would just get over the whole DOTF thing already, but that's not just on Tim.  Tim and Harper team-up, oh this is going to be fun.

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## HunterX

Good issue

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## oasis1313

Only the best for our Tim!

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## The Conductor

You know, at the start of the New52, I detested Tim's costume. But it's really started to grow on me. I still think it could do with a bit more streamlining cause it looks really messy, but I like the over all style of it now. I'd maybe like to see something a bit closer to his undernet costume!

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## HunterX

its good to be back

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## HunterX

in the old days

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## Trevel8182

> its good to be back


The True Dynamic Duo, back together again. :Cool:

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## javi150190

Red Robin sandwich 
tumblr_n5avakGmqw1sbe86eo1_500.jpg

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## Punisher007

He's already dated Steph before and he's had pseudo-romantic interactions with Cass.

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## Trevel8182



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## Pharozonk

Some of these fan-artists have a little too much fun.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Trevel8182

> Some of these fan-artists have a little too much fun.


lol yeah! but, birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, those shippers gotta ship. :Wink:

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## Pharozonk



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## Trevel8182

> 


Awesome! I miss cowl and the cape.

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## Zainu

All hail the Swan Queen!  :Cool:

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## oasis1313

The Goddess Tim.

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## gwhh

its the ones that don't get women the least the get the most  






> Damn right she is! She wants that which is unclaimable. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Blade said it best  "Some mother$!#%&*@ are always trying to ice skate uphill." :-)

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## Punisher007

Call Rose Wilson a floozy, and she'll gut you like fish.  Speaking of which, if I were in Tim's position, I'd have totally taken her up on that offer.  Oh and Ra's, what is with the female members of your family all having the urge to rape members of the Bat-family?  It's just not cool man.  Thanks to Lobdell, Cassie finally got to claim the "unclaimable," so I guess she wins.

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## ABH

Appreciation threads should be about "appreciating" the character it's dedicated to (duh!).

It's not the place to hate on any character.

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## beetlebum

Batman and Sons cuteness.



(Excuse me, someone started cutting onions in here and I've got something in my eye.)

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## beetlebum

Cute Tim Drake fan art.



By the-pumpkin-flower

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## HunterX

> Cute Tim Drake fan art.
> 
> 
> 
> By the-pumpkin-flower


Too cute, its based on the Young justice animated show versions of the characters, aint it.

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## HunterX

Teen titans

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## HunterX

Some more Red Robin

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## UltimateTy

> His little computer thing.....something like this should normally be an annoying gimmick but I thought it was used pretty reasonably in this issue. And it's obviously in his DNA anyway. 
> 
> Tim is fu***n back, folks.


Damn I should be reading this.

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## gwhh

You know they are going to reset that story line and/or say it don't count because he was under mind control!!!


http://gwhh.deviantart.com/art/Robin...ie12-413777024








> Call Rose Wilson a floozy, and she'll gut you like fish.  Speaking of which, if I were in Tim's position, I'd have totally taken her up on that offer.  Oh and Ra's, what is with the female members of your family all having the urge to rape members of the Bat-family?  It's just not cool man.  Thanks to Lobdell, Cassie finally got to claim the "unclaimable," so I guess she wins.

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## josai21

> Call Rose Wilson a floozy, and she'll gut you like fish.  Speaking of which, if I were in Tim's position, I'd have totally taken her up on that offer.  Oh and Ra's, what is with the female members of your family all having the urge to rape members of the Bat-family?  It's just not cool man.  Thanks to Lobdell, Cassie finally got to claim the "unclaimable," so I guess she wins.


Yeah. I think that's one of the things I hated -most- about Lobdell's run. Didn't Dick lose his virginity to rape as well? Cannot remember. Seems kinda sick tradition to me.

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## Pharozonk

> Yeah. I think that's one of the things I hated -most- about Lobdell's run. Didn't Dick lose his virginity to rape as well? Cannot remember. Seems kinda sick tradition to me.



Dick technically has gotten raped by two women in the Pre-Flashpoint continuity: Mirage and Tarantula.

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## oasis1313

Rape really has no place in a comic book read by a lot of young kids.

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## josai21

> Rape really has no place in a comic book read by a lot of young kids.


I agree. There are comic books where it is appropriate if handled properly and makes sense within the contains of the plot, but Teen Titans or Nightwing are not comics that should be handling such delicate matters. So few of parents actually take time to read through the comics themselves because "Hey! It's cartoons. Surely the material is age appropriate." 

Is there a rating system in place for comic books? Like the ESRB or MPAA?

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## oasis1313

> I agree. There are comic books where it is appropriate if handled properly and makes sense within the contains of the plot, but Teen Titans or Nightwing are not comics that should be handling such delicate matters. So few of parents actually take time to read through the comics themselves because "Hey! It's cartoons. Surely the material is age appropriate." 
> 
> Is there a rating system in place for comic books? Like the ESRB or MPAA?


They used to have the Comics Code Authority, but the "direct sales market" allowed them to move away from that, and now I think the more adult stuff is on the "Hey Kids ! Comics!" racks.  But raping people (especially KIDS) in comic books tells me that creative personnel are out of ideas and can't think of anything else.  Plus it's creepy.  I don't want to see stories like that, and I don't buy them.

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## oasis1313

> Teen titans



I love this guy's artwork.

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## Jeff Brady

> I agree. There are comic books where it is appropriate if handled properly and makes sense within the contains of the plot, but Teen Titans or Nightwing are not comics that should be handling such delicate matters. So few of parents actually take time to read through the comics themselves because "Hey! It's cartoons. Surely the material is age appropriate." 
> 
> Is there a rating system in place for comic books? Like the ESRB or MPAA?


On the cover of every comic DC & Marvel make is a rating.

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## gwhh

We talked about this in the last tim drake thread.  Which, I cant remember, who and when this happen with him.  So lets start again with this story line.  

As a constant theme of the Tim Drake lifestyle:

Tim complain that all the women in life are as dangerous as they come and they what to seduce him.

He also seems to have a habit of walking in on dangerous women in various stages of undress.  

I cant remember all the examples of this in the comics.  I think its a funny story line and wanted to make a list of them and what issues they are in.

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## Sardorim

He has walked in on a lot of women and has even had naked women ambush him such as Rose Wilson.

When he walked in on that one Russian lady he named a few women and I wonder... When did he walk in on Cassandra Cain? I don't even think she would care considering she's been known to walk around naked at night to go grab a snack as seen in Outsiders pre-reboot.

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## oasis1313

Maybe it's no accident that Tim keeps "walking into" women.

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## javi150190

Here's a 5 year old Red Robin for all our sugar coated needs 
tumblr_inline_n671pq2KxA1scho5o.jpg

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## gwhh

The Teen Titans The New 52 Summed up in one picture:

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## el_zilcho321

> Here's a 5 year old Red Robin for all our sugar coated needs 
> tumblr_inline_n671pq2KxA1scho5o.jpg


Isn't that from the "ask the robin brothers" tumblr account? I love that account, their drawings are awesome.

Anyway, go Red Robin! Timmy seriously needs a comic to himself again

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## oasis1313

I believe that a Red Robin comic will be offered up later this year or next.

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## Darkspellmaster

Argh, it's a shame that the images were already mostly bought by people, but Megan Hendrik's Nightwing 30 had so much potential in there. Especially the hints about Tim going to see Dick preforming and getting his autograph. I really really wish this issue was published. 

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/icon_...5_original.jpg

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## Sardorim

Finally watched Son of Batman movie thing.

Hated it, Tim was cut for no reason at all. Horrible decision and ruined the entire thing for me.

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## javi150190

Here we have another interpretation for the "mid fall kiss scene"


According to the artist, this is how Tim practiced getting frenched on the air

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## oasis1313

> Finally watched Son of Batman movie thing.
> 
> Hated it, Tim was cut for no reason at all. Horrible decision and ruined the entire thing for me.


On the bright side, if Tim had been in the movie, Damian might have finally succeeded in killing him.

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## Sardorim

Damian couldn't even kill Deathstroke, no way he could ever come close to killing Tim. Besides we all know that when the gloves came off that Tim trashed Damian with little to no effort.

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## oasis1313

> Damian couldn't even kill Deathstroke, no way he could ever come close to killing Tim. Besides we all know that when the gloves came off that Tim trashed Damian with little to no effort.



When was that?  Not in my archives so I must have missed it.

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## oasis1313

I liked Deathstroke getting beat by a ten year-old child.  Slade is 'way too full of himself.

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## Sardorim

> When was that?  Not in my archives so I must have missed it.


You didn't read Red Robin series did you? Tim easily manhandled Damian and scared him quite a bit when he realized that he was never Tim's match.

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## Pharozonk

One of my favorite panels:

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## oasis1313

That was so creepy--nasty ol' Ra's wanting his own grandson's body for spare parts.  Sometimes he creeps me out more than the Joker.

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## Punisher007

At least the Joker is certifiably insane.  Ra's is just a douche.

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## oasis1313

> At least the Joker is certifiably insane.  Ra's is just a douche.


You're exactly right.  Ra's is a total douche and I'm pretty tired of him.  He talks big, but that's about it.  I love that issue after Bruce "died" where Ra's called up Dick bitching that he was the one who was supposed to kill Batman, and Dick went over, casually kicked his wrinkled old butt, and let him know in no uncertain terms not to bother him.

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## DonnyMac27

> You're exactly right.  Ra's is a total douche and I'm pretty tired of him.  He talks big, but that's about it.  I love that issue after Bruce "died" where Ra's called up Dick bitching that he was the one who was supposed to kill Batman, and Dick went over, casually kicked his wrinkled old butt, and let him know in no uncertain terms not to bother him.


What issue was that?? I dont remember that at all

----------


## oasis1313

> What issue was that?? I dont remember that at all


Maybe in an issue of Nightwing?  I'll have to look it up.

----------


## josai21

Honestly, I feel like in the last days Pre-52 Ra's had become more of a Tim Drake Villain than Bruce Villain. Which I thought was kinda cool. For me personally, I feel like one of the worst losses of the new 52 was the potential growth in Tim's character. I know a lot of people don't like the latter issues of Red Robin, but I really liked the parallels between Tim and Bruce. It disappointed me that Tim seems destined to never become Batman, but there was that sense of becoming his own person at the end of the Red Robin series. Then the new 52 destroyed his character...so... yeah.

----------


## Jadeb

I wasn't that keen on Tim as mini-Bruce (and especially not on all the suffering they inflicted on Tim), but that character evolution was far superior to the mess we have now.

----------


## josai21

I think that the whole Mini-bruce thing would have played over a lot better if the writers had been allowed to continue the storyline. The whole way Tim beat Ra's began to highlight those differences there. I think that would have played out a whole lot more if they would have been allowed to continue. I mean...think of the psychology of it. I felt like the Red Robin series was Tim really exploring and coming into his own man if you will. When a young guy starts making his way in the world, the presence or lack of a father can have crazy results. While it's not always the case, I do believe that many times being like/unlike our "dads" is our own way of exploring who we are. 

/deepthought

----------


## Sardorim

Tim isn't a Mini-Bruce and he was always a great detective with Bruce acknowledging his talent and that Tim could surpass him one day.

Red Robin seemed to be working towards that direction with Tim really shining on his own and doing thing his own way and not the way Bruce would have done them. Besides, it gave us multiple issues with Cass in it!

----------


## oasis1313

So our rating for World's Best Detective would be (?):
#1 Best Detective:  Batman
#2                         Red Robin
#3                         Riddler
#4                         Oracle
#5:                        Blue Bell
#6:                       Jim Gordon
#7:                       Harvey Bullock
#8:                       Jason Bard
#9:                       Harley Quinn
#10:                      Nightwing
Something like that, with Red Robin someday moving up to #1?

----------


## Vinsanity

Dick would have to be high up there considering he'll be a spy. You kind of need detective work.

----------


## nepenthes

_Secret Origins #3 Preview_

Did anyone get this...anything interesting or just a rehash of #0?

----------


## Lazurus33

> What issue was that?? I dont remember that at all


Nightwing # 152

3778845-3853141882-Night.jpg
tumblr_mszdbkuuGj1rtsw1bo2_500.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> _Secret Origins #3 Preview_
> 
> Did anyone get this...anything interesting or just a rehash of #0?


Jason would say, "You wanna make me proud, Timmy Wimmy, go to the 'fridge and get me a beer."  Oh, and now it's "I'm not gonna be you, Jason--I'm not gonna be perfect."  THIS coming from Claremazon Tim Drake?  It would actually be Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, AND Bruce etc etc etc kneeling before a portrait of Tim, weeping "We're not worthy!"

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

Tim's story in Secret Origins #3 was actually kind of good.

----------


## oasis1313

Tim needs to get a Mohawk or some other kind of haircut to make him look different from the other clones.  I would suggest he shave his head, but that was Damian in 666 (unless he just went bald).  I actually liked the cowled Red Robin costume because he looked less like a clone in it.

----------


## nepenthes

> Jason would say, "You wanna make me proud, Timmy Wimmy, go to the 'fridge and get me a beer."  Oh, and now it's "I'm not gonna be you, Jason--I'm not gonna be perfect."  THIS coming from Claremazon Tim Drake?  It would actually be *Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, AND Bruce etc etc etc kneeling before a portrait of Tim, weeping "We're not worthy!"*


This vision made me laugh. Funny because it's true  :Cool: 




> Tim needs to get a Mohawk or some other kind of haircut to make him look different from the other clones.  I would suggest he shave his head, but that was Damian in 666 (unless he just went bald).  I actually liked the cowled Red Robin costume because he looked less like a clone in it.


He'd look seriously bad arse with a 90's schoolboy side wave, Zack Morris style.

----------


## Aioros22

I like it. Tim being actually respectfull with the impact and sacrífice that Jason meant for the mantle goes way back. 

Still, TimfangirlingoverJason#nice.

----------


## josai21

It was as good as it could be I guess within the constraints of the writer and history already put into Tim in this new universe. I'll still miss the connection Tim really had with Bruce though...

----------


## Buried Alien

> Tim's story in Secret Origins #3 was actually kind of good.


At least he finally has a New 52-friendly origin. For the past three years, people have been wondering precisely whom this Tim Drake was because his old origin could not work in the New 52 scheme of things.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## UltimateTy

I totally forgot about secret origin, I hope my lcs still have copies next week.

----------


## godisawesome

I didn't get it because the series as a whole doesn't interest me and from what I've heard, even the polished up and modified origin still isn't even close to as good as it should be. I understand how the Red Robin naming is a very subjective argument to have. And there are ideas that I think could be cool to see executed by a strong author. But Lobdell's origin is competing with the work of Wolfman and Dixon at their creative peak when they had about a year apiece to figure out his character and story, and it fails in comparison to the work done by Higgins to match Bill Finger for Dick, Tomasi to follow up on Morrison, and Lobdell himself on Todd. The other three Robins maintained their core tenants and personalities. Lobdell envisions a significantly more bratty caricature of a smart kid for Tim than his original version and his story still has too many fails to really stand on its own compared to his usual body of work.

*What's the point of bringing his parents back if they aren't a part of his current character and setting?* It's like the opposite of having your cake and eating it too. Instead of either having a tragic irrevocable crime happen to separate Tim from his parents _or_ having his home life be a defining point of the character and a frequent cause of subplots and character development,  Lobdell removed the reason for the parent's continued survival while also removing even the cynical usage of them as motivation. They're basically useless details to a convoluted origin, instead of integral facets or developed characters. If Tim were in the household in protection while fighting crime, we could see them up close and feel a connection to them, instead of rolling our eyes at Joker pulling them out of thin air for hostages.

*Why does the Witness Protection thing still come off as a an insane and insensible circumstance?* Tim's the one who stole the money, not his parents, and being taken in by _a billionaire who lives in the same city and goes to the Penguin's clubs_ is just _stupid_. It's the exact opposite of what WP is supposed to do! The idea has some potential if the whole family is or was in Witness Protection and one of Tim's motivations was to eventually take down the Penguin to ensure his family's safety, but here, he doesn't care, the government apparently doesn't care and Batman doesn't care! Which leads me to...

*What the hell are Batman and Tim's motivations for anything here!?!* "A dog with a bone" isn't a real motivation! It's an excuse to not explore why Tim is so invested in uncovering Batman's identity, and it's kind of _pathetic_ compared to Tim noticing Batman going darker or being in desperate straights like Jason or Steph or Harper or Dick or raised to be a warrior like Damian. Instead, Tim's got a completely "self-inflicted" origin story. And Batman trusts this kid with anything?!?! This is an irresponsible little brat (more on that in a second) who endangered his own family because he wanted attention! There's no emphasis on why Batman should take this kid in at all! Lobdell had a nice touch in his Jason Todd story using Leslie Thompkins campaigning for him to be adopted, but there's nothing here besides Tim being a skilled but stupid hacker. 

*Lobdell's idea of Tim Drake is inferior to both the old continuity and just about everyone else's writing of the character.* Lobdell was consistent in his portrayal of Tim after a while, and the character is significantly different and less likeable and unique than he was before. In Teen Titans, Tim's an arrogant caricature of the Robin archetype, who's got game with the ladies, no awkward humor, a complete lack of humility, and a lot of stupid and incompetence protected by plot armor. When Lobdell slows down, Tim still comes off as a flat interpretation of "kids these days" with no nuance. Meanwhile, the other writers maintain elements of the old personality (see Tynion's moment of awkward dorkiness for Tim in Eternal #12) and he's immensely more readable. Old Tim had arrogant moments, but they were earned and yet deconstructed, not mishandled. Tim was a dorky but charming virgin, not the suddenly successful ladies man. Tim was quiet and introspective and strategically cautious, not recklessly foolish or hot blooded.

In short, future writers of Tim should not be beholden to this origin. It's not good enough. And it should be modified and retconned even more. Because Eternal is not showing Lobdell's Tim, and heaven willing neither will Pfeifer, and the vast majority of Lobdell's work on the teens of the New 52 should be quietly forgotten. The ideas have potential. Just redo them. Redo them a lot.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't mean to insult anyone, but I do feel the need to recommend the first Robin miniseries from 1992 and the Red Robin solo from before Flashpoint to anyone who is interested by the New 52 Red Robin. If the character's appeal has shone through a pretty awful book, you deserve quality work to read, so you can see why a few fans were vocally against Lobdell being allowed to write this Secret Origin story after Teen Titans as cancelled.

Also, since I do refuse to buy the Secret Origins book, could anyone see if this guys review is accurate in all the changes sustained to the character.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> Tim needs to get a Mohawk or some other kind of haircut to make him look different from the other clones.  I would suggest he shave his head, but that was Damian in 666 (unless he just went bald).  I actually liked the cowled Red Robin costume because he looked less like a clone in it.


They could pick up from the Arkham City look and have him with a buzz cut. That would differentiate him from the other robins and also future Damian.

I wish that they would bring back Redhead Jason as well.

----------


## Jeno

> I didn't get it because the series as a whole doesn't interest me and from what I've heard, even the polished up and modified origin still isn't even close to as good as it should be. I understand how the Red Robin naming is a very subjective argument to have. And there are ideas that I think could be cool to see executed by a strong author. But Lobdell's origin is competing with the work of Wolfman and Dixon at their creative peak when they had about a year apiece to figure out his character and story, and it fails in comparison to the work done by Higgins to match Bill Finger for Dick, Tomasi to follow up on Morrison, and Lobdell himself on Todd. The other three Robins maintained their core tenants and personalities. Lobdell envisions a significantly more bratty caricature of a smart kid for Tim than his original version and his story still has too many fails to really stand on its own compared to his usual body of work.
> 
> *What's the point of bringing his parents back if they aren't a part of his current character and setting?* 
> 
> *What the hell are Batman and Tim's motivations for anything here!?!*


I like the idea that Tim is at the center of his own origin. That's the point : he cannot be with his parents because of his actions, and it's his own genius that put him in this situation, making him his own worst ennemy and teaching him humility.
He doesn't come off as an arrogant little brat wanting attention to me, but as the perfect exemple of the possible outcome of having a young, brilliant and bored mind running wild. That's why Batman takes him in, and why in this context he didn't become just another robin but red robin instead : Batman was just a step, he was here to point him in the right direction.




> *Lobdell's idea of Tim Drake is inferior to both the old continuity and just about everyone else's writing of the character.*


I like the new52 origin story. But iit's true that Lobdell ruined the character. Just like he did with every Teen Titans during his run, sadly...

----------


## godisawesome

It's the contrast with the old origin that makes me think he's a brat; old Tim was a compassionate and cautious kid who figured out who Dick was via a combination of logic and empathy. There's also a much stronger _logos_, logical argument, and _pathos_, emotional appeal, to the old origin than the New 52 one, which is contrast to Lobdell's approach to Jason Todd's origin, which ratcheted up the emotions and logic from the old street kid story in a compelling way. This isn't entirely Lobdell's fault; he's had two issues to review one story, whereas Wolfman and Dixon had an entire year's worth of issues between the two of them to really finish Tim's old origin and craft the character that wound up being created.

I liked the old Tim on an emotional level from the moment he first appeared. He's a humble kid who tries to quietly fix a growing problem caused by Jason's death. He's wise beyond his years, respectful and aware of the need for secrecy, and he has a cause to achieve. At the same time, the writers display a context where Batman is genuinely traumatized by Jason's death and extremely reluctant to take on a Robin but _needs_ to anyway. He has a young, brilliant, and bored mind, but he's not an idiot and he's not foolish; and that's an interpretation I enjoy for the character. I like characters who are intelligent and wise, not bright but foolish (read: willfully stupid and idiotic).

In contrast, this new Tim isn't humble. It's a natural side-affect of his new interpretation as an Ace character with focus on being an Olympic athlete _and_ expert hacker. But it's exacerbated by the rest of his origin, carrying him from merely confident to _arrogant_; anyone with this kid's knowledge of electronic robbery and people would know the consequences of his actions. But he steals money from the Penguin anyway. He's _immature in comparison to his skill level and arguably his age_. He's not a kid to be entrusted with the responsibility of anyone else's safety, at least not right after this mistake, and yet he's in costume almost immediately after.

And the context just hurts the story even more. Bruce seems like a very cold and unfeeling machine when dealing with the aftermath of Jason's death, and if he weren't talking about it, we wouldn't know anthing about it. The Witness Protection agency leaving Tim to Bruce makes no sense either, and lacks any drama or explanation. And his parents are ciphers instead of characters, and thanks to the way he wrote the rest of the series, there's no humility gained from Tim's experience; Tim barely spends even a few sentences in his endless expositionary monologues talking about his parents, and never displays any hesitation or awkwardness about his life choices. He got what he wanted, and never addresses his mistake again. It's an illogical and emotionally cold story.

Now, having said that, I think Lobdell's objective was to update a character he understood in broad strokes for a modern audience. He reads like one of those modern interpretations of "the smart guy" as an ostentatious and reckless wish fulfillment fantasy, one where impulsive stupidly is protected by plate iron plot armor and whose confidence is supposed to be a major part of the appeal. And I personally despise those types of characters. Arrogance is a flaw and should be played as such, not some trait to be lauded. And I like Tim being cautious and protective.

----------


## Nix Uotan

On the one hand, I think Lobdell's version has the idea that this smart intelligent person was so overconfident that he led his family to danger. So, that's interesting. On the other hand though, I don't feel that Tim comes across as a likeable person in Secret Origins. Mostly because I felt him leaving for 'newer pastures' comes across as being 'OK, I'm bored with you now Batman, bye!". The older version where Damian kind of forces Tim to leave was kind of better. At least, to me it is...

----------


## Jadeb

> On the one hand, I think Lobdell's version has the idea that this smart intelligent person was so overconfident that he led his family to danger. So, that's interesting.


It could be interesting, but they haven't done anything with it. On its own, it's just the "smart kid gets in over his head" cliche. Only the smart kid's a tech genius and an Olympic-level athlete, which is just silly.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't hold a huge grudge against the Olympic athlete thing, I just think it's an annoying contrivance forced by the Five Year Proclamation. The first Robin miniseries was all about Tim going from a moderately skilled and gutsy athlete to a cunning and savvy brawler at the hands of Lady Shiva. Lobdell clearly wanted a more mobile and agile fighter, which I don't hold that much against him, but Tim clearly has some plot-hacks to be such a warrior in New 52 Teen Titans. There's no way a kid who's just an Olympoc gymnast learns how to temporarily subdue a meta with superstrength using martial arts in a few months, which is what Tim has on the timeline now.

Maybe someone can add a tutelage under Shiva to his early internship, or if they want to give Cass Cain some background and previously established Bat-tie, she could do it. 

And anyone else want to see the Bo staff make a complete return. Gleason used it in B&R, but Lobdell focused on the (razor tipped) wings as the main weapons. Maybe they could be combined into different parts of a fight scene? I've been thinking that they could change the bandolier design on his chest to resemble a toned down version of the Green Ranger's shield, and if you make the wings detachable, you now have a portable bulletproof screen to put someone in, or a way to make the wingpack fly as it's own glider. So the wings would be his air superiority and maybe even some kind of remote controlled drone while he beats people up the old fashioned way with his staff.

----------


## josai21

Is there anyway we could get some sort of Crisis so that the old continuity still exists? Do what marvel did. Have the Ultimate and Original side by side. Pleases everyone. 

The current timeline is illogical to the point of insanity. One of the most important things when creating and dealing with such fantastical and amazing characters is the need for consistent logic.  Because of the fantasticalness of the characters, the suspension of disbelief for a story is already nearly broken. However, it is the belief that this world operates on some form of logic like our own that is able to hold that disbelief away. 

What the new 52 has done is destroy the base sense of logic and reality that thereby destroys the entire suspension of disbelief when reading a comic. 

So all that to say..Can we get old Tim back?

----------


## Jadeb

> So all that to say..Can we get old Tim back?


Tim had a premonition of his fate way back in YJ #1:



Think he's talking about Lobdell?

----------


## josai21

@Jadeb

THat is....hilarious and slightly creepy considering it's exactly what happened.

----------


## harashkupo

> Tim had a premonition of his fate way back in YJ #1:
> 
> 
> 
> Think he's talking about Lobdell?


That's the funniest thing I've seen on these boards today.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

With his folks alive, Boomerang having no hand in their deaths, and his storyline as Red Robin in the previous continuity wiped out, I don't see where all his angst and anger is coming from. Tim was always confident and level-headed. He's still being written with the personality he developed after going through several hardships after Infinite Crisis. It's making him an unlikable jerk because he has no justifiable reason to act that way. 

The New 52 shows up that Tim idolized Batman and convinced him to take on a new partner. Batman takes him on, Tim immediately gets a sour attitude, sets up his own database system, and starts going behind people's backs and being cranky all the time. You can't write him as the previous Tim if he doesn't have Tim's later history.

----------


## Dzetoun

It seems about to get worse.

----------


## ABH

Heh, I'm actually intrigued by that.

What's with these ads, though? "You don't know Dick" and "We call them tools". What's next?

----------


## Dzetoun

> Heh, I'm actually intrigued by that.
> 
> What's with these ads, though? "You don't know Dick" and "We call them tools". What's next?


They're for San Diego Comic Con.  This is my favorite:

Image-27.jpg

----------


## Jadeb

> It seems about to get worse.


Would have been more apt if he were holding the previous Titans debut.

----------


## Cypher

So when reading Pre-52 Drake, how do you go about thinking of his age? Do you just go with your own interpretation of age and ignore what they say it is. Though I know officially they try to force the 17 years of age on him.

He was fairing to be quite an interesting character. There was quite a bit going on.

----------


## godisawesome

FabNic was going to have him officially become 18 under his pen, and the character was being written in more of a high school senior-college Freshmen way at the time. One of the problems with the whole "only ever Red Robin" thing is that it makes him more immature as a character when combined with his mandated 16 or 17 years of age; he can't be a graduated sidekick, because then they'd have to actually give him a career as Batman's sidekick and suggest an experienced Batman over 27 or so.

And still no new solo?!? C'mon!

----------


## oasis1313

> FabNic was going to have him officially become 18 under his pen, and the character was being written in more of a high school senior-college Freshmen way at the time. One of the problems with the whole "only ever Red Robin" thing is that it makes him more immature as a character when combined with his mandated 16 or 17 years of age; he can't be a graduated sidekick, because then they'd have to actually give him a career as Batman's sidekick and suggest an experienced Batman over 27 or so.
> 
> And still no new solo?!? C'mon!


Teen Titans is pretty much a Drake solo book.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> FabNic was going to have him officially become 18 under his pen, and the character was being written in more of a high school senior-college Freshmen way at the time. One of the problems with the whole "only ever Red Robin" thing is that it makes him more immature as a character when combined with his mandated 16 or 17 years of age; he can't be a graduated sidekick, because then they'd have to actually give him a career as Batman's sidekick and suggest an experienced Batman over 27 or so.
> 
> And still no new solo?!? C'mon!


They've shown us as much evidence of being Batman's partner as they have any of the current Robins. He did it for about a year, age 16 to 17. I wouldn't mind an annual or something showing more of it, but I think we would just be seeing flashbacks of the Morrison-era Batman stories drawn in new costumes.

----------


## josai21

So did anyone see the brief preview at the end of Eternal 14?  I got the vibe that there might be some romance between Wonder Girl and Tim going.

Also the whole Harper Row thing is hilarious.

----------


## The Conductor

Godisawesome: I have quickly learned it _ignore_ anything DC says about continuity/chronology. As soon as you make any kind of sense out of the DC Universe they will utterly change the rules. Just make up your own timeline and stick with it. As far as I am concerned, Tim was 13 when he became Robin, was 20 when the Red Robin series started and is now currently 21 and leading the Titans.

----------


## Vinsanity

> So did anyone see the brief preview at the end of Eternal 14?  I got the vibe that there might be some romance between Wonder Girl and Tim going.
> 
> Also the whole Harper Row thing is hilarious.


Yeah they have a somewhat romance, I don't think they are a couple exactly but I don't we will see in the TT I guess. I really do like the romance between though and hopefully it will press on.

----------


## Cypher

> FabNic was going to have him officially become 18 under his pen, and the character was being written in more of a high school senior-college Freshmen way at the time. One of the problems with the whole "only ever Red Robin" thing is that it makes him more immature as a character when combined with his mandated 16 or 17 years of age; he can't be a graduated sidekick, because then they'd have to actually give him a career as Batman's sidekick and suggest an experienced Batman over 27 or so.
> 
> And still no new solo?!? C'mon!


A new solo would be pretty sweet. I'd like to see him get his old costume back though, even if its just a the red and black one he had before becoming Red Robin. Though the Red Robin costume made him look a true successor. 




> Godisawesome: I have quickly learned it _ignore_ anything DC says about continuity/chronology. As soon as you make any kind of sense out of the DC Universe they will utterly change the rules. Just make up your own timeline and stick with it. As far as I am concerned, Tim was 13 when he became Robin, was 20 when the Red Robin series started and is now currently 21 and leading the Titans.


This is sort of how I gather it as well. Judging by the art also it seems they wanted to go one way with appearance but were forced another.

----------


## josai21

So one day til the New Teen Titans. I'm crossing my fingers. Hoping Pfeifer can do it Justice!

----------


## gwhh

Another boring day in the love life of Tm Drake:

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> Godisawesome: I have quickly learned it _ignore_ anything DC says about continuity/chronology. As soon as you make any kind of sense out of the DC Universe they will utterly change the rules. Just make up your own timeline and stick with it. As far as I am concerned, Tim was 13 when he became Robin, was 20 when the Red Robin series started and is now currently 21 and leading the Titans.


Then why bother reading the comics? Utterly NONE of that is in the books or agrees with anything currently going on. Why would Tim suddenly be 21? He wasn't 21 before. He also wasn't 13 when he became Robin. Tim was 15-17 before the reboot, just as he is right now. 

The current timeline isn't complicated and is actually a lot more similar to the old DCU's timeline. A lot of you guys have somehow mixed up publishing years with comic years. Tim was only Robin for about three years before the reboot(He became Robin around the time of Knightfall and Death of Superman, which were perpetually three years ago). His name changing is literally nonexistent. He was Batman's sidekick for over a year and was a Robin who called himself "Red Robin" as to not step on Jason's legacy so quickly. It's that simple, it makes sense, and there's literally NOTHING more to it. Anything else is pointless bitching on the part of annoying fans.

I've analyzed the new and old timelines and found that there aren't that many differences, you were just operating on incorrect assumptions before(fanfic, basically) and you took exception to DC taking advantage of their right to contradict your 'head canon'.

----------


## josai21

The age is the same, but it doesn't work in the whole five year time line. There is no way that all the events that have occurred to Batman, Dick, and the whole bat family could just occur in 5 years. Dick is the pivotal point. 

The 'bitching' you speak of is the dislike fans have for vital character arcs being destroyed to accommodate this 5 year time line. To accomodate this timeline, they got rid of so much. The Titans relationships are nonexistent, the sanctity of the Batman-Robin relationship became an internship, character's growth stopped or regressed at the beginning of the N52. 

I get that they wanted to make it more accesible to new readers, but as it stands it just doesn't make sense to keep Batman's events the same if it all occured in five years. As much as I hate to say it, if they went with five years they should have started fresh. Bruce, Alfred, and Dick. I love the other characters, more than I love those two actually, but if you're going to do five years...do it right.

----------


## The Conductor

> Then why bother reading the comics? Utterly NONE of that is in the books or agrees with anything currently going on. Why would Tim suddenly be 21? He wasn't 21 before. He also wasn't 13 when he became Robin. Tim was 15-17 before the reboot, just as he is right now. 
> 
> The current timeline isn't complicated and is actually a lot more similar to the old DCU's timeline. A lot of you guys have somehow mixed up publishing years with comic years. Tim was only Robin for about three years before the reboot(He became Robin around the time of Knightfall and Death of Superman, which were perpetually three years ago). His name changing is literally nonexistent. He was Batman's sidekick for over a year and was a Robin who called himself "Red Robin" as to not step on Jason's legacy so quickly. It's that simple, it makes sense, and there's literally NOTHING more to it. Anything else is pointless bitching on the part of annoying fans.
> 
> I've analyzed the new and old timelines and found that there aren't that many differences, you were just operating on incorrect assumptions before(fanfic, basically) and you took exception to DC taking advantage of their right to contradict your 'head canon'.


Do you just enjoy being needlessly aggressive? It's cute. 

Why do I read comics? Because I enjoy them, I just don't feel like I need to fellate the editorial team unlike you. I will always and forever stick to the 3-to-1 rule for mainstream comics, because it works and gives events a lot more gravitas. The New 52's timeline (and the New 52 itself) was a barely thought out, poorly implimented cash grab that gives incompitent editors plenty of chances to employ their friends instead of people with talent. Clingly so desperately to what anyone at DC says about continuity is lunacy because they will change their mind in the next three years.

----------


## godisawesome

It is mostly the lack of previous adventures and nominal lack of development I identify as the problem with New 52 Tim Drake. The Lynx/Golden Dragons/HKPD subplot is better than all of the Teen Titans stories were, with better execution and an intriguing twist, the old rivalry/tutorship of Lady Shiva was a great continuing string throughout Tim's stories, and Tim's new status as a peer of Nightwing with his own subset of supporting characters that crossed over from his old cast to his new one was actually fun to read.

Now, all of that could be brought back into continuity in one or two issues. Of the Three Robins, only Tim received a major overhaul for his previous career, and unfortunately Lobdell did a poor job and created an inferior character context. He did show some improvement, but his one issue origin for Tim (motiveless-Olympian-super-hacker-easily-sliding-into-an-internship-with-some-respect-for-the-position's-previous-holder) pales in comparison to the two major arcs done by Dixon and Wolfman (skilled-young-detective-with-mediocre-fighting-skills-sees-a-need-for-a-Robin-who-requires-training-by-Batman-and-Lady-Shiva), and the resulting discrepancy hurts.

And I'm not that big on the "respect for Jason leads to Red Robin moniker" thing just yet. I think that decision requires some introspection and irony added in with a full Jason vs Tim backstory, or some kind of previous association while Jason was Robin (now there's an idea for the five year timeline; Tim as one of Jason's intelligence assets and friends). The implicit demotion in the new timeline also hurts Tim a little bit; would it hurt too much to have him invoke the same response Dick and Damain had for being Robin, "Batman and Robin will never die"? 

And just curious here, how many of you guys think the "always Red Robin" decree is editorial instead of Lobdell himself? Because I feel an awful lot like that.

----------


## josai21

> And just curious here, how many of you guys think the "always Red Robin" decree is editorial instead of Lobdell himself? Because I feel an awful lot like that.


I'm not sure honestly, but I still don't really understand the 'why' of it. It seems there to pointlessly antagonize the fans of Tim...

----------


## godisawesome

The most logical explanation I have is that it's supposed to quietly shift the paradigm of the Robins by making it so there's "really" only been three as opposed to four, or to try and make him more unique. The problem is that the name is extremely derivative and the removal of his official status as Robin III is a nominal insult to the character's place in comicdom; "Robin" is a pop-culture icon with appearances in all media, while "Red Robin" is much more obscure and immediately requires explanation, but also lacks the "promotion" comparison  Nightwing and Red Hood have.

And without the promotion, Tim loses some pride of place, and it emphasizes how he's basically been shoehorned into the archetype of "the Robin on the Titans," which isn't a characterization but a set of tropes and cliches he has to follow. I still say his current costume, with an excess of details, domino mask, gold accoutrements, and splayed-wing look make it the "Disco-Collar Nightwing" suit for Tim. And Lobdell's handling of "romance" in the book feels like an attempt to graft on even more of Nightwing's traits onto Tim; hey, Dick was raped in the 90s because of his sexual magnetism, now Tim has too! And he's a player. Because we all know there was nothing good about Tim being more of a hilariously awkward chick magnet, confirmed virgin, and all around more "safe" teenager than most of his pop-culture peers, right? It's not like it was a unique direction for the character or added humor and tension to his personality or anything.

----------


## josai21

> The most logical explanation I have is that it's supposed to quietly shift the paradigm of the Robins by making it so there's "really" only been three as opposed to four, or to try and make him more unique. The problem is that the name is extremely derivative and the removal of his official status as Robin III is a nominal insult to the character's place in comicdom; "Robin" is a pop-culture icon with appearances in all media, while "Red Robin" is much more obscure and immediately requires explanation, but also lacks the "promotion" comparison  Nightwing and Red Hood have.
> 
> And without the promotion, Tim loses some pride of place, and it emphasizes how he's basically been shoehorned into the archetype of "the Robin on the Titans," which isn't a characterization but a set of tropes and cliches he has to follow. I still say his current costume, with an excess of details, domino mask, gold accoutrements, and splayed-wing look make it the "Disco-Collar Nightwing" suit for Tim. And Lobdell's handling of "romance" in the book feels like an attempt to graft on even more of Nightwing's traits onto Tim; hey, Dick was raped in the 90s because of his sexual magnetism, now Tim has too! And he's a player. Because we all know there was nothing good about Tim being more of a hilariously awkward chick magnet, confirmed virgin, and all around more "safe" teenager than most of his pop-culture peers, right? It's not like it was a unique direction for the character or added humor and tension to his personality or anything.


^This. 

I've heard some rumors flitting about with whispers of some new crisis happening. Like just from editorial decisions. I would be so happy if they retconned the whole N52, but since i doubt that would happen I would love it if we could get a "New Earth" line of comics going. Kinda like what Marvel did with Earth 616 and Ultimate.

----------


## Punisher007

I don't think that they were DELIBERATELY trying to demean Tim with the whole "he was always Red Robin thing," nor do I think that it was supposed to be a "demotion."  I think that it was meant to A. address the fact that Batman apparently went through Robin's like chewing gum in the New 52, and B. Help establish the Tim/Jason friendship that Lobdell is clearly keen on.  And I do think that it was an editorial mandate since Lobdell explicitly identified Tim as being a "former Robin" in the first issue of TT, and it was only retconned later.

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, I don't see any deliberate spite there at all, and the demotion is more a consequence of the action than anything else. It's just that when Dick's classic origin receives an update only, when Jason's is still largely the same, and when Damian's is largely unchanged in spite of the conflicts that theoretically hurt its probability, Tim being the only one to receive a total overhaul stands out in comparison. And it's just painfully obvious that less time and effort was put into his new origin and that it was crafted to fit the character as he was being written at the time in Teen Titans, with a heftier dose of arrogance and much more resemblance to an Internet troll then to a bookish but polite nerd.

----------


## Jadeb

Good points, Godisawesome. They stripped Tim of nearly all his key attributes -- his lovable nerdiness, his eternal virginity, his struggles to be a hero, his network of family and Batfamily, his bond with Kon and the Titans, even his name and his reason for becoming Robin -- and turned NuTim into an arrogant overachiever who's more a collection of Gary Stu-isms than relatable protagonist. That he was never Robin just underscores the insult. On its own, I could have lived with it, but it's symptomatic of how one-dimensional and flavorless this great character has become.

----------


## godisawesome

Is anybody on the Batboard's both a Tim Drake fan and a reader of Future's End? Because I'm curious as to whether I should be interested in that story at all. The overall format and main plot details seem lame to me, but Tim's apparently heavily involved. And I realize it'd be a little surreal of me to have three books all feature Tim Drake, two of them weeklies, and still feel he's underrepresented or being miswritten.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Is anybody on the Batboard's both a Tim Drake fan and a reader of Future's End? Because I'm curious as to whether I should be interested in that story at all. The overall format and main plot details seem lame to me, but Tim's apparently heavily involved. And I realize it'd be a little surreal of me to have three books all feature Tim Drake, two of them weeklies, and still feel he's underrepresented or being miswritten.


Interesting question.  I find Tim Drake in _Futures End_ to be an interesting and attractive character, actually.  He has turned his back on both the vigilante life and Bruce, but his anger and pain are handled in a mature, believable way.  So far, mostly he has only become enraged when a couple of louts made light of Cassie's death, and when he thinks that Terry is a new sidekick that Bruce has taken in for his "meatgrinder."  Thing is, actually having a pretty clear personality, and even a healthy romantic relationship, he us hard to relate to the Tim of the rest of the New 52.  He doesn't even physically resemble the younger Tim all that much.

----------


## dantefrizzoli

I have grown up with Tim Drake since his beginning with batman and the scarecrow.  Awesome character.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I don't think that they were DELIBERATELY trying to demean Tim with the whole "he was always Red Robin thing," nor do I think that it was supposed to be a "demotion."  I think that it was meant to A. address the fact that Batman apparently went through Robin's like chewing gum in the New 52,


It doesn't address that problem at all. Tim WAS still Batman's sidekick for a while in between Jason's death and Bruce's own death.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> It doesn't address that problem at all. Tim WAS still Batman's sidekick for a while in between Jason's death and Bruce's own death.


But the major difference is that Bruce didn't shove another kid into Dick's old uniform and call him Robin. A kid named Tim Drake created his own identity inspired by the legacy of the Robins and trained as Batman's sidekick for a year before going off on his own adventures.

That alone is Tim's character. The real problem is that Tim has been in nothing but bad stories since the New 52 started.

----------


## K. Jones

> But the major difference is that Bruce didn't shove another kid into Dick's old uniform and call him Robin. A kid named Tim Drake created his own identity inspired by the legacy of the Robins and trained as Batman's sidekick for a year before going off on his own adventures.
> 
> That alone is Tim's character. The real problem is that Tim has been in nothing but bad stories since the New 52 started.


True, and the "Always Red" Robin retcon is part of one of them. It's hard to separate the two. Or for that matter, the terrible costume.

Moreover, Tim was Robin for almost as long as Barbara was Oracle, and I mean only like a year's difference here. 20 years. The double-edged sword of trying to have Tim "stand on his own" is that his retconned history with Bruce is entirely undeveloped. So the good moments come when we see glimpses of his classic character survive - which pretty much only happens when like, he turns up in Batman Eternal or Batman and Robin - basically when he turns up to support Bruce. Actually, you don't hear much complaining about his appearances in Batman, Incorporated, where lousy costume or not, Morrison just ran wild with the Four Robins taking center stage in the Leviathan war.

----------


## Godlike13

Plus its hard to take the whole "his own identity" seriously when he just put the word "Red" in front of Robin.

----------


## godisawesome

> But the major difference is that Bruce didn't shove another kid into Dick's old uniform and call him Robin. A kid named Tim Drake created his own identity inspired by the legacy of the Robins and trained as Batman's sidekick for a year before going off on his own adventures.
> 
> That alone is Tim's character. The real problem is that Tim has been in nothing but bad stories since the New 52 started.






> Plus its hard to take the whole "his own identity" seriously when he just put the word "Red" in front of Robin.


I keep thinking that if you wanted to actually make "Red Robin" as a non-promotion code name, Tim a "stands on his own feet" guy, and the implication that he did so out of respect for Jason, and heck, even the somewhat weirdly underdeveloped history between. Tim and Jason work, you need to do something like this:

Jason, now having been born in a time where the Internet is a thing, builds his own support network of hackers and informers, just like Bruce did in Dini's run (and a way you could throw in an Oracle like background for Barbara) and one of them is Tim. Tim helps Jason investigate his mother's return, and becomes aware of Jason's death via that manner, and _that_ builds into his discovery of Bruce's hobby. Then he gives himself the Red Robin name to honor Jason. Then you throw in some actual background for the character where you can see Jason fight  Tim during his return to Gotham, and Tim's fights with Damian, both of which can be redefined through this history here.

Otherwise, it does come off as a stupid decision. Again, I'll argue that removing him from the official succession of Robin does do some minor damage to his character. It does cost him some pride of place and does make it hard(er) to identify him to outsiders. 

"Who is Tim Drake?"

"Third Robin."

"Oh. Cool"/"There's more than one!?!?"

-----
"Who's Tim Drake?"

"Batman's sidekick between Robins II and III."

"Sooo, he's like a back-up intern?"/"Wait, go back. There's more than one Robin!?!?"

----------


## oasis1313

I think Tim should move out of the Robin personna altogether, like Dick and Jason did.  He's outgrown it, he doesn't need it, he should become his own MAN.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> I think Tim should move out of the Robin personna altogether, like Dick and Jason did.  He's outgrown it, he doesn't need it, he should become his own MAN.


I don't know if he outgrew the role but I do know that being 'sorta' Robin is really making Tim feel less relevant as a character.

I remember reading a suggestion once that Tim become the new Oracle but that would continue his place as a legacy character for better or worse. I do think that continuing to emphasise his intellectual prowess would help define the character.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't know if he outgrew the role but I do know that being 'sorta' Robin is really making Tim feel less relevant as a character.
> 
> I remember reading a suggestion once that Tim become the new Oracle but that would continue his place as a legacy character for better or worse. I do think that continuing to emphasise his intellectual prowess would help define the character.


I'd be totally cool with Joker shooting him through the spine and making a quadraplegic out of him; he'd be totally qualified to be the new Oracle.

----------


## phonogram12

Tim's too physical of a character to be the new Oracle. It would be a damn waste, really.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tim's too physical of a character to be the new Oracle. It would be a damn waste, really.


Barbara was quite a physical character, too (the "dominoed dare-doll"), and she became a far better character as Oracle.

----------


## phonogram12

> Barbara was quite a physical character, too (the "dominoed dare-doll"), and she became a far better character as Oracle.


Tim and Babs are not interchangeable, though. They're entirely different characters altogether and to treat them similarly would be a disservice to them both.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tim and Babs are not interchangeable, though. They're entirely different characters altogether and to treat them similarly would be a disservice to them both.


Barb was a paraplegic, still had the use of her arms.  Making Tim a quadriplegic would make even more of a challenge for him.  Not the same thing.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'd be totally cool with Joker shooting him through the spine and making a quadriplegic out of him; he'd be totally qualified to be the new Oracle.


What?

No way.

----------


## Aioros22

I wouldn`t mind someone doing that to the Joker so he stays in limbo for awhile. 

Forever.

----------


## phonogram12

> Barb was a paraplegic, still had the use of her arms.  Making Tim a quadriplegic would make even more of a challenge for him.  Not the same thing.


That doesn't make it better. Like I said, Tim's way too physically active of a character to be the new Oracle no matter how you try and justify it.

----------


## oasis1313

> That doesn't make it better. Like I said, Tim's way too physically active of a character to be the new Oracle no matter how you try and justify it.


That would make it even more poignant.  "Dramatic" as the pros say.  Then he could spend all his time with his Reed Richards brain.

----------


## phonogram12

> That would make it even more poignant.  "Dramatic" as the pros say.  Then he could spend all his time with his Reed Richards brain.


It would just be a giant waste, though. That would be like sticking Bruce with the Oracle role.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> It would just be a giant waste, though. That would be like sticking *Bruce* with the Oracle role.


Which was essentially what they did in Batman Beyond and many people seem very fond of that incarnation of the character (myself included).

----------


## oasis1313

Well, Batman has already had his back broken.  Dick is a brainless bimbo, according to DC.  Jason's IQ might be 2-3 points above Dick's, and together they'd still be less than 90 on the IQ scale, judging by the way DC treats them.  Barbara's done the wheelchair genius thing.  Damian isn't back from the dead yet.  So that leaves nobody qualified to be Oracle except Tim Drake, who is written as to have an IQ of well over 750,000.

----------


## Punisher007

Or Harper.  She seems quite good with tech/computers.  And she'd fit that role better than Tim.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> Or Harper.  She seems quite good with tech/computers.  And she'd fit that role better than Tim.


Out of interest how is she better suited for the role?

Tim has the intellectual capacity, a personal connection to the larger hero community and detective skills that supposedly rival Batman's. I don't really know what Harper brings to the table as I dropped Snyder's book. I thought she was meant to be a _kewl_ street wise kid looking out for her li'l bro. I also don't think it would make sense to put her into the role of Oracle as they are currently developing her Bluebird persona.

I feel bad for having brought up the notion but I can't help but like the idea of Tim having a distinctive place in the Batfamily again. Also Babs getting a new sort of legacy character that isn't another Batgirl would be fun. I am blanking on any examples of male legacy characters to female heroes. I really don't think it is necessary to have him suffer any sort of disability to take on the role but it would function as an explanation as to why he changed identity and somewhat make up for the lack of diversity represented in returning Barbra to her Batgirl identity. However I am not certain that Babs ever functioned as Oracle in New 52 continuity. I could imagine Lucius Fox filling the niche of Oracle but I don't know if he would adopt the code name. Although I suppose Tim could fufill the role without adopting the code-name either. 

A final thought: Tim has pretty interesting and well defined relationships with the entirety of the Batfamily and so I think it would be interesting to have him be central to their information network.

I feel this thread has somewhat derailed and I feel largely responsible for it.

----------


## oasis1313

I don't have a problem with Harper as Oracle.  But I liked having AN "Oracle" for the Bat-Family and I would like to see Tim Drake move on from the Robin apprenticeship, especially when/if Damian returns.  "Red Robin" just seems a confusing, intermediate handle for a guy who's too old to be Robin, but too insecure(?) to grow out of it altogether.  What's the point of the identity now?  A "friend and ally" of Batman?  There's lot of those without proclaiming themselves interns and wearing the iconic red, green, and yellow.  I liked Tim's costume when he wore a cowl; at least he didn't look quite so much like a clone.  Batgirl needs a new identity, too; actually, Barbara should never have been kicked back to it but to advance on--we already had a BatGIRL with Cass.  The Batwoman moniker is taken.  Is Barbara planning on doing this "girl" thing through the menopause?  These characters deserve the progressive development instead of being stuck in their current ruts.

----------


## phonogram12

He's only ever been Red Robin in this continuity, though, so he really doesn't have to move on from being Robin since he was never Robin to begin with. And right now he's pretty much only defined by his appearances in Teen Titans, not by his appearances in any of the Bat books.

----------


## oasis1313

I think he could be a great deal MORE and this code name is dragging him down even more than Roy and Kory are dead weights around Jason's neck.  All of this is just my own humble opinion, but I believe in exploiting characters and taking them to their max; they're just going around in the same dead circle now as far as I'm concerned.  If I was Didio and could sell not only a Batman line of books, but also Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin or Whatever LINES of books, I'd be doing it, instead of regurgitating another Booster Gold or Blue Beetle book doomed for failure yet again.

----------


## phonogram12

We're only at the second issue of this new version of Teen Titans so I think it's a little early to say that Tim's going around in circles at this point. As for Jason, IMHO, Roy, Kori, Scott Lobdell, and the new 52 are the best things that've ever happened to Jason. He's just so much more interesting now. I'm so glad they moved him away from his pre 52 iteration.

----------


## oasis1313

Scott Lobdell has finally found his perfect book with Red Hood.

----------


## Vinsanity

> We're only at the second issue of this new version of Teen Titans so I think it's a little early to say that Tim's going around in circles at this point. As for Jason, IMHO, Roy, Kori, Scott Lobdell, and the new 52 are the best things that've ever happened to Jason. He's just so much more interesting now. I'm so glad they moved him away from his pre 52 iteration.


What do we know of Tim so far?

- He is a gymnast to a certain degree
- Great with technology
- Moved away from his parents
- Always been Red Robin
- Works well with Jason, Babs and Dick
- His middle name is Tim apparently but really doesn't make a difference
- Leader of Teen Titans
- Relationship with Wonder Girl - Don't know if that's going still?

I mean there isn't much that we know. TT focused on several characters and there hasn't been much of a push on what he is or is past. That said it is only been 3 years of New 52, so there is plenty of time. 

The old Tim was fun to me but things change and characters change and I do like this jerk, cocky Tim because it is different. To me if you are Batman's sidekick you have to be a little arrogant. I don't want to see him in an Oracle role because there is a lot more possible stories for him as Red Robin that can be told.

----------


## Punisher007

> Out of interest how is she better suited for the role?
> 
> Tim has the intellectual capacity, a personal connection to the larger hero community and detective skills that supposedly rival Batman's. I don't really know what Harper brings to the table as I dropped Snyder's book. I thought she was meant to be a _kewl_ street wise kid looking out for her li'l bro. I also don't think it would make sense to put her into the role of Oracle as they are currently developing her Bluebird persona.
> 
> I feel bad for having brought up the notion but I can't help but like the idea of Tim having a distinctive place in the Batfamily again. Also Babs getting a new sort of legacy character that isn't another Batgirl would be fun. I am blanking on any examples of male legacy characters to female heroes. I really don't think it is necessary to have him suffer any sort of disability to take on the role but it would function as an explanation as to why he changed identity and somewhat make up for the lack of diversity represented in returning Barbra to her Batgirl identity. However I am not certain that Babs ever functioned as Oracle in New 52 continuity. I could imagine Lucius Fox filling the niche of Oracle but I don't know if he would adopt the code name. Although I suppose Tim could fufill the role without adopting the code-name either. 
> 
> A final thought: Tim has pretty interesting and well defined relationships with the entirety of the Batfamily and so I think it would be interesting to have him be central to their information network.
> 
> I feel this thread has somewhat derailed and I feel largely responsible for it.


Umm because Tim's skill set make him more suited to being a costumed hero who goes out and is a detective/superhero.  Sticking him behind a bunch of computers is quite simply a waste of his talents.  Harper, who's primary skillset seems to be tech-based/computers, would fit into the Oracle role nicely.  And her lack of training in actual day to day crimefighting (at least right now) makes it even more believable.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> Umm because Tim's skill set make him more suited to being a costumed hero who goes out and is a detective/superhero.  Sticking him behind a bunch of computers is quite simply a waste of his talents.  Harper, who's primary skillset seems to be tech-based/computers, would fit into the Oracle role nicely.  And her lack of training in actual day to day crimefighting (at least right now) makes it even more believable.


That doesn't really sell me on the idea that Harper would make a better Oracle but rather that she isn't yet established in the field. Tim still has from my understanding better credentials to be Batman's intel expert. That would not require him to be consigned to a computer and desk or even a wheelchair.

However this simply idle speculation as DC would likely not ever use Tim for this role. I just think that he would be efficient and capable in the role and give him a place distinct in the current Batfamily. Clearly the concept bothers you, for which I sincerely apologize but I think that you could agree that he would be highly capable in that capacity even if you believe he could arguably better used in the field. Luckily I have no say at DC and this may just end up fuel for some sort of silly fan fiction.

----------


## Sardorim

Nothing says that if Tim becomes Oracle that he still cannot be in the field at times.

----------


## phonogram12

You know what? The more I think about it, I wouldn't mind too much if Tim was the intel expert of the Bat Fam. Just let him keep being Red Robin and we're all square. :Big Grin:

----------


## josai21

I think my biggest regret is I felt that we were finally getting to the....'nightwing' stage of Tim's growth if that makes any sense? Yeah he took the name Red Robin, but I think it was only as Red Robin ended that he had fully grown into the roll. I was expecting so much to see the contrast between Tim and Bruce as two independent heros. But the N52 slammed the door on that growth and now Tim is stuck in Limbo with no clear direction beyond what he already was.

----------


## SpiderWing20

I think a good way to revitalize Tim would to give him Detective
Comics as an ongoing... I know it sounds crazy but I think it would help him focus on the detective side of that seems like it's been forgotten

----------


## godisawesome

> I think my biggest regret is I felt that we were finally getting to the....'nightwing' stage of Tim's growth if that makes any sense? Yeah he took the name Red Robin, but I think it was only as Red Robin ended that he had fully grown into the roll. I was expecting so much to see the contrast between Tim and Bruce as two independent heros. But the N52 slammed the door on that growth and now Tim is stuck in Limbo with no clear direction beyond what he already was.


I think that's what's so disappointing about the new background for Tim. In the first few issues of Teen Titans, Tim seemed to occupy the same kind of shielded protection Dick and Jason had, with the implication that he was "the geeky Robin" and the third kind of graduate of the Robin title. And a Red Robin like the one in pre-Flashpoint continuity was a Nightwing style story with a very different protagonist. Nicieza and Yost both focused on building a world around Tim, just like Dixon had with Tim earlier, and everything about his character was a natural evolution of the same character we'd had for years. Even his flaws of secrecy and arrogance were extrapolations of Tim having been an incredibly successful sidekick who'd also watched most of his old life burn around him. And there was so much potential and fun in the stories that were being built up in the background. Lynx and the Golden Dragons promised to be a fun mystery with noir-ish undertones, the Spider Council was intriguing, and Lonnie Machin was one storyline away from being a great counterpoint to Tim.

But now, Tim's not a graduate, and he wasn't even a sidekick really. He was an intern. Tim's flaws have no explanation. He's just kind of a tool who never got humbled (one thing that FabNic actually focused on with collateral damage and Tim getting in over his head) and who has a really stupid history. I don't care that Lobdell made some minor improvements to "Tim's" background in the Secret origins issue. It still sucks. Tim shouldn't be arrogant as a defining character trait. It should be an internal conflict he has to fight as a result of having clearly grown into a strong hero. His parents shouldn't be alive just so they can be used as hostages. They should either be dead with their legacy motivating him (even if it's cliche, it's still better than just being Joker bait) or some part of his daily life like in Dixon's stories. 

I still say Tim deserves a new origin, one made in the Batman office with a few towards just resetting his classic origin like they did with Dick and Jason, and I still say Tim could hold a solo and FabNic should write it.

----------


## josai21

^ This. 

Also, has anyone been reading the New 52- Future's End? Tim is pretty badass in it. Loving the beard. 


[/hider]

----------


## oasis1313

I like the beard.  It makes Tim look different from the other clones.

----------


## phonogram12

I think Damien should get a mullet to make him stand out more from the previous Robins. Or simply stay dead.

----------


## byrd156

> I think Damien should get a mullet to make him stand out more from the previous Robins. Or simply stay dead.


No one should ever have a mullet.

----------


## Pharozonk

Tim looks like Tony Stark there.

WOOO! 3000th post!  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

Hopefully he won't be growth-stunted.

----------


## phonogram12

> No one should ever have a mullet.


I can see Damien having a mullet.

----------


## Vinsanity

So what happened to Timmy Drake in the most recent Future's End?

----------


## josai21

Most recent?

*spoilers:*
 His girlfriend got upset cause he told her that he is Red Robin and his real name is Tim Drake. She left in an upset huff cause he lied to her previously. He had an interaction or two with Lois Lane. Probably gonna end up on Green Arrow's Island as a soldier against the Brainiac/Brother Eye Invasion or whatever is up with all that. Oh! His knee almost gave out on him. :P 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Vinsanity

> Most recent?
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  His girlfriend got upset cause he told her that he is Red Robin and his real name is Tim Drake. She left in an upset huff cause he lied to her previously. He had an interaction or two with Lois Lane. Probably gonna end up on Green Arrow's Island as a soldier against the Brainiac/Brother Eye Invasion or whatever is up with all that. Oh! His knee almost gave out on him. :P 
> *end of spoilers*


So nothing on what happened to *spoilers:*
Teen Titans and Cassie? bummer.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## josai21

> So nothing on what happened to *spoilers:*
> Teen Titans and Cassie? bummer.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
 Well, there is a brief mention how Tim survived. Basically this is the quote from Tim to Lois,

"The blast sent me flying. When I woke with my Costume in shreds and Wonder Girl's brains splattered all over me..."

Tim basically ditched the suit. Claimed Amnesia and started a new life." 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Vinsanity

Ain't that a stinker.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

It's so hard imagining Tim with a beard.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's so hard imagining Tim with a beard.


I liked it.  Made him look more manly.

----------


## josai21

> I liked it.  Made him look more manly.


I like it too. It gives his face character. That said...he's aged majorly in just five years. Putting him at 18 in current time line would make him 23 here. Maybe it's the art style, but he looks more grifterish around late 20s early 30s.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like it too. It gives his face character. That said...he's aged majorly in just five years. Putting him at 18 in current time line would make him 23 here. Maybe it's the art style, but he looks more grifterish around late 20s early 30s.


What you said josai21.  I liked it in that Tim didn't just grow up to be a pretty boy.

----------


## Batmil

> What you said josai21.  I liked it in that Tim didn't just grow up to be a pretty boy.


Same here, looked so cool! Such a badass!

----------


## Knight of DC

Worst. Shoulder Angels. Ever.

----------


## Vinsanity

Watched some episodes of YJ and Tim Drake has a personality of a .

At least even if you guys dislike the New 52, he actually has a personality there unlike YJ.

----------


## josai21

> Watched some episodes of YJ and Tim Drake has a personality of a .
> 
> At least even if you guys dislike the New 52, he actually has a personality there unlike YJ.


The problem with YJ Tim is that they didn't have time to give him much character development. Instead, they chose to focus more on Blue Beetle and such. I can understand the reasoning, but I would have preferred more of a Tim Drake storyline in the next generation. That said, they decided to focus still more on the original team which hurt the new characters.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

YJ introduced too many characters in Season 2. Most of the new members were underdeveloped because too much screen time was focused on the runaways. A lot of the older teammates barely had screen time as well.

----------


## byrd156

> YJ introduced too many characters in Season 2. Most of the new members were underdeveloped because too much screen time was focused on the runaways. A lot of the older teammates barely had screen time as well.


Well it would have been fine if there was a season 3.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Well it would have been fine if there was a season 3.


Maybe or maybe they would have focused back on the new Kid Flash, Superboy, Miss Martian and stuff instead.

----------


## oasis1313

> Same here, looked so cool! Such a badass!


Is he old enough in the regular comics to start growing a beard yet?

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

I'd imagine he's around 16-18 in the present timeline.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'd imagine he's around 16-18 in the present timeline.


Then he's old enough to grow a beard.  If he ever gets the mercy of another costume revamp, it should have a cover below the nose (a half-Grifter) instead of a mask around the eyes--that way Tim can have a proper beard and finally distinguish himself from the other clones.

----------


## GrandKaiser

He should become Robin again. I said this is in another thread but now is the perfect time to be back at Bruce's side. He could get a new look and everything. That would be perfect honestly now that Damian's gone

----------


## The Whovian

> He should become Robin again. I said this is in another thread but now is the perfect time to be back at Bruce's side. He could get a new look and everything. That would be perfect honestly now that Damian's gone


I'd love to see Tim back as Robin, but not in that awful wings outfit and he must be written like he was pre-New 52

----------


## GrandKaiser

> I'd love to see Tim back as Robin, but not in that awful wings outfit and he must be written like he was pre-New 52


Absolutely. I see some big change coming in DC comics coming soon. Not a reboot, but definitely a new jumping on point for people. I think Batman and Robin should get a new creative team and Tim should return to the Robin role with a new suit (a more Robin-esque one, no wings) and he can still be a part of the Titans while also being at Bruce's side. I for one think that could be perfect and explained very well, with Bruce maybe asking Tim to be Robin or Tim saying that Bruce needs him with everything going on lately.

----------


## Punisher007

No, that would be a regression imo.  Let Tim be his own man and due his own thing (at least most of the time).  It's constantly dragging these characters (Nightwing, Batgirl, etc) back into Batman/Gotham's orbit that has hurt them.  They grew up, evolved, and "left the nest" so to speak.  Let them actually do that.

----------


## GrandKaiser

> No, that would be a regression imo.  Let Tim be his own man and due his own thing (at least most of the time).  It's constantly dragging these characters (Nightwing, Batgirl, etc) back into Batman/Gotham's orbit that has hurt them.  They grew up, evolved, and "left the nest" so to speak.  Let them actually do that.


I see your point, but we have to understand that Tim was created to be Bruce's sidekick. Even when he grows up, he still has loyalty to Bruce. I don't think them being together would ruin his character, in fact I think it could be a great for Tim, especially if we get a new B&R creative team. But that's just me.

----------


## The Whovian

> No, that would be a regression imo.  Let Tim be his own man and due his own thing (at least most of the time).  It's constantly dragging these characters (Nightwing, Batgirl, etc) back into Batman/Gotham's orbit that has hurt them.  They grew up, evolved, and "left the nest" so to speak.  Let them actually do that.


I would take Tim being back as Robin and working with Batman but I would also support Tim taken on the costume and name of Red Robin like in his series.

----------


## oasis1313

> I would take Tim being back as Robin and working with Batman but I would also support Tim taken on the costume and name of Red Robin like in his series.


Tim should get a new identity--something that denotes adulthood.

----------


## phonogram12

> I would take Tim being back as Robin and working with Batman but I would also support Tim taken on the costume and name of Red Robin like in his series.


Seconded. I also think strengthening his ties to Batman would be a good idea, too, since they've hardly been explored in the least in the new 52.

----------


## oasis1313

> Seconded. I also think strengthening his ties to Batman would be a good idea, too, since they've hardly been explored in the least in the new 52.


Nah--busted back to sidekick/intern, that's a disgrace to the character--unless you reboot him back to age 10.  Bird gotta get out of the nest and fly.  Even Damian should graduate eventually to his own Batman 666 title.

----------


## phonogram12

> Nah--busted back to sidekick/intern, that's a disgrace to the character--unless you reboot him back to age 10.  Bird gotta get out of the nest and fly.  Even Damian should graduate eventually to his own Batman 666 title.


Not sayin' he has to be his sidekick, again. Merely more established ties the way Dick Grayson's ties were so firmly established. Also, that future isn't set in stone, especially since Future's End and Batman Beyond are still in play.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not sayin' he has to be his sidekick, again. Merely more established ties the way Dick Grayson's ties were so firmly established. Also, that future isn't set in stone, especially since Future's End and Batman Beyond are still in play.


In the New 52, Dick's ties to Bruce Wayne is a work release program from the orphanage.  Tim isn't working class like Dick--he's an aristocrat, right?  What does he need with a peasant like Bruce Wayne?

----------


## phonogram12

> In the New 52, Dick's ties to Bruce Wayne is a work release program from the orphanage.  Tim isn't working class like Dick--he's an aristocrat, right?  What does he need with a peasant like Bruce Wayne?


No. While Tim's parent's are certainly wealthy, they're not billionaire wealthy like Bruce. And in the new 52, Tim had his name changed and was taken in by Bruce, hence the stronger ties that should be illustrated.

----------


## oasis1313

> No. While Tim's parent's are certainly wealthy, they're not billionaire wealthy like Bruce. And in the new 52, Tim had his name changed and was taken in by Bruce, hence the stronger ties that should be illustrated.


Tim was adopted by Bruce in the New 52?  Dick and Jason weren't, so there is more proof he's the favorite.

----------


## phonogram12

> Tim was adopted by Bruce in the New 52?  Dick and Jason weren't, so there is more proof he's the favorite.


Actually, in the Secret Origins issue featuring Dick as well as the Batman & Robin Annual of this year, it's seemed they changed a lot of what they originally featured in Dick's zero issue. There's some pretty strong indication that Dick was adopted now, too. For example, in the annual, Dick was attending some fancy schmancy prep school while he was Robin, something that a blue collar kid on a work release program could never afford.

----------


## oasis1313

> Actually, in the Secret Origins issue featuring Dick as well as the Batman & Robin Annual of this year, it's seemed they changed a lot of what they originally featured in Dick's zero issue. There's some pretty strong indication that Dick was adopted now, too. For example, in the annual, Dick was attending some fancy schmancy prep school while he was Robin, something that a blue collar kid on a work release program could never afford.


Does that mean I'll actually have to  . . . buy . . .  a non-Dick book to find out what's going on?  Blasphemy.

----------


## phonogram12

> Does that mean I'll actually have to  . . . buy . . .  a non-Dick book to find out what's going on?  Blasphemy.


The both featured Dick Grayson heavily so I really don't see what the problem is. IMHO, they were both better than Dick's Zero issue.

----------


## godisawesome

Alternatively, throw Lobdell's new origin in the trash and amalgamate the better parts of the New 52 story with some of the Pre-Flashpoint goodness. I like having Penguin involved in Tim's origin, but "Tim" being a moronic fool who gets is parents exiled while he gets to live with Bruce Wayne and play sidekick is stupid. I think it's supposed to be an attempt to modernize his origin and align it with how Lobdell and others view "young people" these days. Tim in the New 52 is an entitled fool who misuses his gifts and seems almost sociopathically divested of any responsibility for his actions. We gave up FabNic's run on Red Robin, with a complex Tim dealing with a conflicting humility and arrogance (that was kind of earned) and dealing heavily with Tim's responsibilities, for Lobdell's new origin, which did jack all for Tim's story.

Each time I see news on Batman books, I can't help but think "Where's my damn Red Robin book by Nicieza and To?"

And while I wouldn't necessarily want to see Tim made Robin again, I do want the authority over him completely removed from Teen Titans and put in the hands of a Bat-writer not named Lobdell. Lobdell can write, but his style and decisions combined with editorial's failures to destroy a Young Justice line that failed to meet any of its potential with three different companies' rosters of teen heroes. I never heard anything like glowing praise for his TT #0 issue, but they still put him on Secret Origins to tell the same damn thing. I remember reading that and thinking "WHYYYYYYY???" He'd lost the right to define the character when it was clear he was driving the final nail in Teen Titans Vol. 1's coffin.

Just trash the stupid thing and have a fan of the old origin redo it. Have Penguin (as the replacement for Obeah Man) be a perpetual enemy of the Drakes from before Tim's birth (the family could already be in WP), have Tim's investigations be in part to save his family, have Penguin succeed in offing or injuring one of his parents, ditch the Olympiad thing for the Shiva training, make it clear that "Red" Robin was his promotion from Robin, and establish that some of his old adventures probably happened (like Nightwing), and the reason for his reclusiveness is that someone got past his security measures and hurt his surviving parent (probably dad).

I keep hoping that Red Skies thing we see coming up is a soft reboot of the failed aspects of the New 52, because I like where Dick, Jason, Bruce, and even Babs (somewhat; girl still needs to take a level in badass to match Oracle) are, but what happened to all the Young Justice line (Bunker excepted) needs to be destroyed and rebuilt, and especially Tim for Gotham.

----------


## oasis1313

What is Red Skies?

----------


## godisawesome

There's confirmation that the next Crisis event, coinciding with COIE's anniversary, will most likely feature the multiverse, and they've teased the famous "red skies" that defined such crossovers.

----------


## IndianaDrake

Am i the only one who hated Nicieza`s run on Red Robin? I mean i liked Yosts but even that was not perfect.

----------


## godisawesome

Your not alone, no. I'm not with you, mind, but several people have expressed similar opinions...generally only noticeable in the last year or two, and possibly more vocally because Tim doesn't have a book to attract his fans to as much anymore.

And I got to ask this question; as a FabNic supporter, I of course despise Lobdell's handling of the character in comparison. As someone who is not the former, which do you think was worse, Lobdell or Nicieza? I don't entirely blame Lobdell (editorial set him up for a fall quite a few times) but I also don't think he ever understood or cared to understand what made Tim unique, whereas I'd say that Nicieza did understand, but he also wrote the character in a manner that reacted to the kill-count of parental figures DC was giving him, leading to a different interpretation that some despised.

----------


## IndianaDrake

Honestly i used the hate a little to sparingly, i just really dislike his run. Now Lobdell on the other hand was terrible. I felt like he was trying to be intentionally bad with Tims new origin.

----------


## sanderling

Wow -- Tim in the Futures End teaser!  Looking forward to seeing what on earth is going on...

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56077

----------


## oasis1313

I love Fabian.  He deeply cares about his characters and writes such great stories.  I will never forget the wedding of Scott Summers and Jean Grey.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I like very much the Futrures End's Tim Drake, has been charcterized better in few pages of this book than in every other N52 book in 3 years. 
Give him back a family around him or his friends (Conner, Impulse, Dick, Steph), miss so much his pre-flashpoint version.
And put out those wings! It's terrible seeing him flying, he's not superboy.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I like very much the Futrures End's Tim Drake, has been charcterized better in few pages of this book than in every other N52 book in 3 years. 
> Give him back a family around him or his friends (Conner, Impulse, Dick, Steph), miss so much his pre-flashpoint version.
> And put out those wings! It's terrible seeing him flying, he's not superboy.


I like the wings and I like him without Steph. I found either fun or dull pre-flashpoint. Here I find him somewhat interesting, sure he could be better written but still enjoy it regardless.

----------


## The Whovian

> I like very much the Futrures End's Tim Drake, has been charcterized better in few pages of this book than in every other N52 book in 3 years. 
> Give him back a family around him or his friends (Conner, Impulse, Dick, Steph), miss so much his pre-flashpoint version.
> And put out those wings! It's terrible seeing him flying, he's not superboy.


Agreed 100% on everything you said

----------


## oasis1313

And grow the beard.

----------


## josai21

> And grow the beard.


Posted this in another thread, but relevant still.

5f2413cb8ebc17f6bc549206416e10d6.jpg

I'm really hoping Tim becomes batman in the Future's End Timeline. He needs some love.

----------


## Sardorim

Tim may be Batman again?

----------


## Batmil

So I have a question, I've been collecting the 93' Robin series with Tim Drake as Robin. I got the first couple of issues + the joker's gone wild miniseries. But what is the difference between the Robin series that started in ' 91 and the series that started in '93? Are they different, a reboot, or was ' 91 just a miniserie?

edit: this is vol 1. of the ones im looking for 34078-4975-38052-1-robin.jpg

----------


## Black_Adam

Loving Tim in Future's End, him potentially putting on the cowl has me all sorts of excited. But at the same time I feel sorry for him, that teaser image is as much symbolic as it is suggestive: as much as Tim wants to escape his old life and leave it behind, he can't. Sooner or later it is going to catch up to him and he's going to be forced back into action.

----------


## Jeff Brady

> So I have a question, I've been collecting the 93' Robin series with Tim Drake as Robin. I got the first couple of issues + the joker's gone wild miniseries. But what is the difference between the Robin series that started in ' 91 and the series that started in '93? Are they different, a reboot, or was ' 91 just a miniserie?
> 
> edit: this is vol 1. of the ones im looking for Attachment 11198


'91 was just a miniseries. Go back to the beginning of this thread, there's a list of Tim's appearances on the first or second page.

----------


## Batmil

> '91 was just a miniseries. Go back to the beginning of this thread, there's a list of Tim's appearances on the first or second page.


Oh, somehow I totally missed that! Thanks!

----------


## oasis1313

> Loving Tim in Future's End, him potentially putting on the cowl has me all sorts of excited. But at the same time I feel sorry for him, that teaser image is as much symbolic as it is suggestive: as much as Tim wants to escape his old life and leave it behind, he can't. Sooner or later it is going to catch up to him and he's going to be forced back into action.


What, and give up his dream of graduating from bartender to master mixologist?

----------


## phonogram12

> Tim may be Batman again?


Let's hope so! This would be awesome!!! :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

> Let's hope so! This would be awesome!!!


Yeah, he could get rescued by Jason, Barbara, Stephanie, Cass, and Lil' Fox-Bat.

----------


## phonogram12

Nah, he's far too capable to need that!

----------


## oasis1313

Just judging by his performance in "Battle for the Cowl".  Has Tim worn the Batman suit at any other time?

----------


## godisawesome

A future where he wore a prootype version of the Batman Beyond suit was teased in the second to last issue of Red Robin, but it was just a hypothetical scenario in Tim's mind.

----------


## phonogram12

> Just judging by his performance in "Battle for the Cowl".


Tony Daniel isn't much of a writer if his Detective run is of any indication. I want to be excited about his upcoming Deathstroke run, but his past efforts have really left me cold, especially anything Bat-related.

----------


## oasis1313

> A future where he wore a prootype version of the Batman Beyond suit was teased in the second to last issue of Red Robin, but it was just a hypothetical scenario in Tim's mind.


It's nice that he at least thought about it.

----------


## josai21

> Just judging by his performance in "Battle for the Cowl".  Has Tim worn the Batman suit at any other time?


The Titans Tomorrow storyline had a future where Tim was Batman.

----------


## gwhh

Which comic issue is this from?

----------


## Jeff Brady

> Which comic issue is this from?


I don't know, but I'm terrified that Vicky Vale's skull is larger than her pelvis.

----------


## Batmil

> Which comic issue is this from?


I believe its from the Red Robin series, not at home so dont know which issue (11-ish?). She found out that Tim hasnt been at school etc.

----------


## Michael P

Wait, no, I had that backwards. Never mind.

----------


## rpi

Ignore - responded to the wrong post.

----------


## SXVA

I was reading the first arc of Geoff Johns 2003 Teen Titans and really liked how he wrote Tim Drake in that arc, although i detest him changing Impulse to Kid Flash.

He was all around formidable but he wasn't over powered [for example, how he got a nice hit with his staff on Deathstroke], and he was a good leader and good friend, and then there was just the regular teen side of him as well. Some very good one on one talks with Superboy, and i liked that end to their dialogue..

Superboy: "I was wrong, you're nothing like Batman"
Drake: "I'm nothing like *anybody*"
Superboy: "See you next week" as he flies off.
Drake: "I'll be here".

Will we ever see these 90s/early to mid 00s portrayals of Tim Drake again? Where Tim Drake, Impulse, Superboy were so very awesome.

----------


## godisawesome

In my case, it's where's my Young Justice Tim Drake and co gone? Seriously, if you liked John's take on the three boys, you should read Peter David's Young Justice run.

And is anybody else hoping that one of these Convergence books coming out is a Nicieza penned Red Robin book? Steph's got her own book, with Tim and Cass showing up as well, but I would really dig it if all three had their own books so we got one big last hurrah out of them.

----------


## SXVA

> In my case, it's where's my Young Justice Tim Drake and co gone? Seriously, if you liked John's take on the three boys, you should read Peter David's Young Justice run.
> 
> And is anybody else hoping that one of these Convergence books coming out is a Nicieza penned Red Robin book? Steph's got her own book, with Tim and Cass showing up as well, but I would really dig it if all three had their own books so we got one big last hurrah out of them.


Young Justice, Robin 90s, Superboy 90s, Impulse 90s comics are some of my all-time favorites and first true connection to comics. That's why i included the entire 90s early 00 era.

Haven't read them in a long time though.

----------


## gwhh

That Rose Wilson, correct?  What issue is that from?

605637-l_248d103ea24c2801b37748fae3749e14.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> That Rose Wilson, correct?  What issue is that from?
> 
> 605637-l_248d103ea24c2801b37748fae3749e14.jpg


Ugh, I hated what Johns did to Rose.

----------


## oasis1313

This is why young people should have chaperones.

----------


## Vinsanity

Man I was when I bought that issue was like "Tim, bro. What the hell is wrong with you?" But eh comics are comics. 

I never liked TT Tim. YJ Tim was awesome.

----------


## SXVA

> Man I was when I bought that issue was like "Tim, bro. What the hell is wrong with you?" But eh comics are comics. 
> 
> I never liked TT Tim. YJ Tim was awesome.


At the beginning of TT he was good.

----------


## Vinsanity

> At the beginning of TT he was good.


Until his dad got killed.

----------


## Dataweaver

The deaths of Jack Drake and Stephanie Brown pretty much ruined Tim as a viable character.  There were some valiant attempts to repair the damage (Dixon’s return to the title where he undid Stephanie’s death, and the first twelve issues of Red Robin); but ultimately, the damage was too much.  His erasure in Flashpoint was a mercy killing.  

Really though, the point where everything started to go off the rails was the Titans/YJ Graduation Day event.  If I was tasked with “rebooting” Tim into his glory days in a way that allowed the stories to move forward differently, I’d use Indigo’s arrival and subsequent decimation of the Titans and YJ as the primary divergence point: what would have happened at that meeting if Indigo had never showed?  For Robin in particular, I’d “diverge” further by ditching all continuity starting from Bill Willingham’s run (Johnny Warlock, Jack discovering Tim’s secret, Stephanie becoming Robin, War Games, Identity Crisis, the Veteran, Infinite Crisis…), and picking up the plot threads that Willingham abandoned at the start of his run.  

More genally, I’d put him in a timeline that started diverging from the mainstream around 2000, as Dan DiDio’s editorial decrees began.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim has his first animated appearance coming up.

Batman Unlimited: Animal Instincts features Red Robin with the cowl look, and it features him side by side with Nightwing.

So a DVD movie based off a toy line is going to feature Dick and Tim as allies and brothers. And I've got the sneaking suspicion that even as lackluster as the story might end up being, it can't be any less imaginative than the action-scene based DCNAU stuff being released. At least they probably won't screw up Deathstroke so egregiously.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Tim was in The New Batman Adventures and Young Justice: Invasion. Though not as Red Robin.

----------


## godisawesome

yeah, I meant as Red Robin, sorry.

----------


## Vakanai

> Tim was in The New Batman Adventures and Young Justice: Invasion. Though not as Red Robin.


I wish he had had more screen time in YJ:I.

And I'm excited to see him as Red Robin!

----------


## Dataweaver

As Red Robin, yes; but I’m not terribly fond of the Dr. Midnight knockoff costume.

----------


## Vakanai

> As Red Robin, yes; but I’m not terribly fond of the Dr. Midnight knockoff costume.


Why, what wrong with it?
(too sleepy to do better writing)

----------


## Jeff Brady

> Why, what wrong with it?
> (too sleepy to do better writing)


It's a Dr Mid-Nite knock-off. That's what's wrong with it.

----------


## Vakanai

> It's a Dr Mid-Nite knock-off. That's what's wrong with it.


Don't really know who that is?
Also, Batgirl and Batwoman knock-off of Batman, who's a black and gray Superman knockoff with a mask.

----------


## Jeff Brady

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+M...ih=766&dpr=0.9

----------


## Vakanai

> https://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+M...ih=766&dpr=0.9


Ah, I see the resemblance...and he wears it better than Tim too. Still, I don't see why similar costumes is a terrible thing.

----------


## Jeff Brady

> Ah, I see the resemblance...and he wears it better than Tim too. Still, I don't see why similar costumes is a terrible thing.


I don't think it's a TERRIBLE thing, but if you're going by the name of "Red Robin", and you're a Bat-character, the costumes should seem related, and not from a character from far outside the family. The latter can cause confusion.

----------


## Vakanai

> I don't think it's a TERRIBLE thing, but if you're going by the name of "Red Robin", and you're a Bat-character, the costumes should seem related, and not from a character from far outside the family. The latter can cause confusion.


I doubt there'd be confusion.
And what would you change about the costume to make it better for Tim?

----------


## Jeff Brady

> I doubt there'd be confusion.


There has been.




> And what would you change about the costume to make it better for Tim?


For starters: domino mask instead of cowl, three spikes on the gloves, scalloped cape, underside of the cape turned red.

----------


## Vakanai

> There has been.


I have to stop overestimating people...




> For starters: domino mask instead of cowl, three spikes on the gloves, scalloped cape, underside of the cape turned red.


I like the last three, but I hate domino masks. They are a terribly outdated concept. The only time they *sort* of work is if you add a hood to the costume. But domino mask sans hood? God no. Like the cowl better.

----------


## Jeff Brady

> I have to stop overestimating people...


Me, too.




> I like the last three, but I hate domino masks. They are a terribly outdated concept. The only time they *sort* of work is if you add a hood to the costume. But domino mask sans hood? God no. Like the cowl better.


I'm not against a hood; Damian pulls it off well enough. I disagree that the domino mask is outdated.

----------


## Vakanai

> I'm not against a hood; Damian pulls it off well enough. I disagree that the domino mask is outdated.


It doesn't work as a disguise. Sure it has style points, but it helps none. Might as well go maskless and forget having a secret ID.
It ranks up there with Superman using glasses as a disguise only worse. At least Superman is known for that. No one needs a domino mask in comics anymore.

----------


## Dataweaver

Eh; there are _lots_ of costume features in comics today that aren’t “practical” — at least one of which has been part of virtually every costume Tim has ever worn (namely, the cape).  Frankly, the cool factor trumps the practicality.  

That said, the single easiest change that could be made to the pre-New52 Red Robin look to clearly distinguish it from the Dr. Midnight look would be to cut off the top of the cowl — something like: 
790673-protectoranimated.jpgKid_Flash_Bart.jpgos_geoforce2.jpg

_Everything else_ could remain the same, and the Doctor Midnight lookalike problem would go away.  More importantly, it adds a youthfulness to Red Robin’s look that theoriginal costume lacked.

----------


## Vakanai

> Eh; there are _lots_ of costume features in comics today that aren’t “practical” — at least one of which has been part of virtually every costume Tim has ever worn (namely, the cape).  Frankly, the cool factor trumps the practicality.  
> 
> That said, the single easiest change that could be made to the pre-New52 Red Robin look to clearly distinguish it from the Dr. Midnight look would be to cut off the top of the cowl — something like: 790673-protectoranimated.jpg
> (Not the whole costume, of course; just the head, with Tim’s hair instead of this guy’s brown hair and with a black color scheme instead of the purple one used here.)
> 
> _Everything else_ could remain the same, and the Doctor Midnight lookalike problem would go away.


Capes might not be practical, but they don't falsely attempt to hide identity either (not everything must be practical, but masks are supposed to be, and domino masks don't fit that).
Also, I never liked the topless cowl/hair out of mask look. More like you can get your hair pulled. And unless it's a wig, just another feature to help destroy secret ID.
What's wrong with the cowl other than reminding you of another character?

----------


## Dataweaver

It makes Tim look too old.  That’s where the half-cowl thing helps out.  

And again, practicality isn’t a top concern when it comes to superhero costume design; so the fact that a half-cowl may not be practical is a moot point — if it even _is_ impractical, which is debatable; “hair pulling” isn’t much of an issue when your hair is short and you’re wearing a cape, and it’s probably more comfortable to have your hair free of constraint than plastered against your forehead.

----------


## godisawesome

I prefer the cowl because it gives Tim a different profile and aesthetic compared to the other Robins; Nightwing is the one who grew a pretty boy haircut as he got older, still wears a modified domino mask but should be wearing the radically different and sleeker black and blue scheme, Red Hood wears a helmet and has a "motorcycle fetish" as the Joker says, Red Robin protects his noggin with a cowl intended to copy the sigil on his chest, and wears a simple but unique modification of the Robin costume, and Damian wants to cosplay as an Assassin with a hood and sword.

And since I'm fairly certain that Red Robin is  a more valuable and more exposed property than Dr. Midnight, I don't foresee any problem with the resemblance for Tim's end. And guys like Marvus To make it work.

And I really want Tim to not look like Nightwing at all if he's Red Robin. To's Unternet suit looks good but still derivative, and the current New 52 costume is a pallets swap of Nightwing's second "Las Vegas Disco" outfit.

Don't believe me on that second one? Compare:image.jpgimage.jpg

----------


## Dataweaver

Sorry; I don’t see the resemblance.  To me, the New52 Red Robin look is more of “start with Tim’s post-Infinite Crisis look; then add chest straps, replace the ‘R’ with the Red Robin emblem in various locations (center chest, both shoulders), and replace the cape with that ‘wings’ contraption”.  Not saying that I like it; but it really has very little in common with Nightwing’s Disco look.  

As for being distinct, the half-cowl look is still plenty distinct from the other Robins.  Yeah, you lose the “my head looks like my emblem” bit; but frankly, that’s not much of a loss.

Also, it’s ironic that you don’t want Tim looking like Dick, considering that the Red Robin costume that you’re pushing was originally designed to be worn by Dick (see _Kingdom Come_).

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I would say do a modification of the cowl where it could be put on or off as he sees fit, but have the mask on under it, or have the cowl attach to the mask. Personally I like the mask more than the cowl. But if the cowl was modified I could get used to it. 

Cape, get rid of the bird wings. Those should be on Hawk and Dove not Red Robin. I'm not a fan of the bandoliers either, maybe something simpler if you need something around the chest? Kind of liked the design they had going in the Arkham games for him. Or more to the point his red Robin outfit that he had on before he became Red Robin. Something like that worked for me because of it's simplicity. 

*sighs* I miss old Tim. I agree with the whole diverge from graduation day event, or prior to that. Just have them become Teen Titans and let the likes of Damian and the other kids take over as Young Justice.

----------


## Dataweaver

On the Red Robin costume, definitely keep the bandoliers.  I’m with you on the cape vs. bird wings thing; I get where they were going with that, but it’s a bit _too much_ bird motif for someone who’s primarily a costumed crimefighter.  As for the head gear, something else to consider would be a visor of some sort: from the start, Tim was the Robin whose suit was tricked out; and it would be entirely in keeping with that for his head gear to have a built-in heads-up display, sort of like the ill-fated Google Glasses.  But if I could have Tim Drake presented however I wished, I’d much prefer to reboot him all the way back to being Robin and put him back in his original costume, with the red-and-green motif and the black cape with yellow lining inside.  

Conversely, of all of the Robins, _he’s_ the one I would have expected to eventually give up the costumed hero gig in favor of more of an espionage-ish career, not Dick Grayson.  Prior to his (mis)handling by Bill Willingham, he had confessed to Dick that he always saw the costumed crimefighter thing to be temporary, and that he eventually intended to move past it.  Willingham took that as meaning that he was insufficiently motivated, which lead to the War Games/Identity Crisis debacle that Tim never really recovered from; but I always took it to mean that he intended to find other ways to make the world a better place, ways more efficient than patrolling the city and beating up on whichever criminal came to his attention.  Ways like becoming an Oracle-style heroic mastermind who organizes and equips the superhero community, or becoming Mayor, Chief of Police, Governor, etc. and implementing policies to improve everyones’ lives.  Something that would take full advantage of his “brains over brawn” approach.

----------


## Vinsanity

I never did like his old Red Robin look. Never really liked cowls except on the Bats.  I like his current costume.

----------


## Vakanai

> It makes Tim look too old.  Thats where the half-cowl thing helps out.  
> 
> And again, practicality isnt a top concern when it comes to superhero costume design; so the fact that a half-cowl may not be practical is a moot point  if it even _is_ impractical, which is debatable; hair pulling isnt much of an issue when your hair is short and youre wearing a cape, and its probably more comfortable to have your hair free of constraint than plastered against your forehead.


I did say it's not all about practicality. While hair pulling does always come to mind with me for some reason regarding half cowls (which could be resolved with a half cowl by merely adding a wig [and if it's different from natural hair color helps obscure ID]), I've also always just disliked them on an aesthetic level as well. If you aren't going full cowl, then just don't go cowl. Mask plus hood, full cowl, full mask, helmet, whatever, just not domino masks by themselves or half cowls. But nobody can agree with everything when it comes to what looks good, plenty of people still miss the trunks and tights. I think the costume mostly looks good. That said, I do think the cowl is missing _something_ but I don't know what. Batman's has pointy ears, Flash has those lightning bolts on the side, Captain America has a big letter A, I think that's what's missing with Tim's Red Robin costume, the cowl just needs something different to it, but I don't know what...

----------


## WestPhillyPunisher

I stopped taking the kid seriously long ago after he named himself after a fast food franchise.

----------


## scary harpy

> And since I'm fairly certain that Red Robin is  a more valuable and more exposed property than Dr. Midnight, I don't foresee any problem with the resemblance for Tim's end. And guys like Marvus To make it work.
> image.jpgimage.jpg


That may be true but Dr. Midnight had a better look that the original Red Robin. Tim looked like a bad copy of Dr. Midnight and that's not good. 

Tim could become Dr. Midnight since no other exists...just a thought.

----------


## scary harpy

> I stopped taking the kid seriously long ago after he named himself after a fast food franchise.


Agreed. He should probably be Redwing now.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I did say it's not all about practicality. While hair pulling does always come to mind with me for some reason regarding half cowls (which could be resolved with a half cowl by merely adding a wig [and if it's different from natural hair color helps obscure ID]), I've also always just disliked them on an aesthetic level as well.


Well, we _are_ talking primarily about personal taste.  I said that I didn’t like the Red Robin look; someone asked me why not; I started listing the things I didn’t like and what I’d rather see, and the responses were generally taking the tone that my observations weren’t valid — usually citing issues of practicality.  Frankly, the above quote is the first one I’ve seen here that acknowledges that it’s a matter of personal taste.  




> That said, I do think the cowl is missing _something_ but I don't know what. Batman's has pointy ears, Flash has those lightning bolts on the side, Captain America has a big letter A, I think that's what's missing with Tim's Red Robin costume, the cowl just needs something different to it, but I don't know what...


While I still think something like a half-cowl would be the better route to take, I definitely agree that the main problem with the pre-Flashpoint look is that it’s a plain black cowl, and that even something as simple as a broad stripe of red to break up the monotony of it would be a big improvement.

----------


## godisawesome

That's a good point; its kind of like how the old school domino mask is almost always replaced by the "hooked wings" that first showed up with Nightwing. Didn't Tim even get his first one after OYL?

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Strip of red would work, also the visor idea sounded good. And yeah I can see older Tim becoming the tech guy behind all the crime fighting stuff with Babs. He'd probably work with her creating stuff and only go out if there was a real need for it.

----------


## Dataweaver

Of course, that was back when Babs was Oracle.  In a New 52 setup, I could see _Tim_ eventually becoming Oracle and founding something vaguely akin to the Birds of Prey, with Babs never coming near the role: sure, she’s got dibs on it; but if she’s too busy being Batgirl to follow up on it, then why _not_ give the role to someone like Tim who would make good use of it?  But that’s a whole separate debate.

----------


## K. Jones

I think Tim's the only bat-kid who looks better and is totally tonally appropriate wearing a cowl. That said, the Ross Red Robin costume leaves a bit to be desired for me. It's too Doctor Midnite. As cute as the fact that the "X" shaped bandoliers resemble "TWO Silver Age style Utility Belts" it's a bit too paramilitary/heavy gunner looking for me and not sleek enough for a ninja detective boy.

Totally tangential to this - I was musing about that "Batman Unlimited: Animal Instinct" or whatever trailer today and thought in my head "wait, I need to double take and check something out". Sure enough, while the costumes are generally a bit inelegant and silly and clearly geared toward action figure compatibility - I REALLY like that Red Robin costume.

It like tows the line between the Marcus To look as well as the Gibson Bat-Manga concept art Red Robin look. With a healthy dash of the Post-Infinite Crisis all-red Robin costume.

----------


## godisawesome

I kind of like the way the cowl makes Tim look older. Of course, that ties into my dislike of the "always Red Robin" thing; if you look at Red Robin as a promotion, than a significant aesthetic difference is preferred, but if he's just a parallel to the traditional Robin identity, than the more old fashioned domino mask is preferred. And Tim is traditionally depicted as being a bit mentally older than he is physically, so the cowl reflecting that plays into my appreciation for it. And c'mon, artist like MARCUS To make the cowl just as expressive as the dominoe mask.

I kind of like most of the Batman Unlimited costume. I really want to see how those little feather things on the side of his cowl actually look, and there is a great deal to be said for simplifying the design with a more solid coloring and dropping the chest belts. There's still a few more fancy flourishes than Id like, with his golden arm guards and the fashionablyasymmetrical arm and thigh band (actually kind of looks a bit like he's wearing 1990s Superboy pants). I'd prefer the leggings were black; I've just never liked the solid red pants look, not on BTNAS, and not in the OYL costume, and not in the "first" Red Robin suit from the New 52. I guess I'm just used to Tim having a definite pants look, even with the unitary from his first costume, and it makes the suit look just a bit more gaudy to me.

----------


## Vakanai

> Well, we _are_ talking primarily about personal taste.  I said that I didnt like the Red Robin look; someone asked me why not; I started listing the things I didnt like and what Id rather see, and the responses were generally taking the tone that my observations werent valid  usually citing issues of practicality.  Frankly, the above quote is the first one Ive seen here that acknowledges that its a matter of personal taste.  
> 
> While I still think something like a half-cowl would be the better route to take, I definitely agree that the main problem with the pre-Flashpoint look is that its a plain black cowl, and that even something as simple as a broad stripe of red to break up the monotony of it would be a big improvement.


I've learned over the years not to be 'that guy' about things being practical in comic books, it's fantasy and that line of argument kills debate (and I love debating everything, I'll debate *against* my own viewpoints just to keep a good debate going). I do use some issues of practicality, but only when they also strengthen my own personal aesthetic view, if that makes sense. Even before practicality became popular I never like domino masks or half cowls (although I prefer domino masks to half cowls if I had to decide, like I said for some reason the first thing to mind with half cowls has always been hair pulling and makes my scalp hurt thinking about it, irrational but eh). I've learned it is all personal taste/preference. Still, it's fun arguing and debating personal tastes (if I didn't debate these things, I'd still be one of those 'comics are super serious' types, and that wasn't as fun).

A stripe over the cowl could work, or a visor (although I'd be afraid that'd make it too much like Science Ninja Team Gatchaman).

----------


## godisawesome

Here's an interview on that Batgirl Convergence book.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...cassandra-cain

I'm liking the way she says she wants to use page time to focus on character interactions. Steph and Cass both have a unique chemistry with Tim, and milking that for all its worth.

----------


## Celgress

Another character I've always loved.

----------


## Agent 37

Tim drake thread with no mention of Batman Beyond?

I may be in the minority but I like the idea.

----------


## godisawesome

Have you been keeping up with Futures End? Is Tim actually becoming Batman Beyond? Because I thought that was just an unsubstantiated rumor.

And its kind of funny how few people on the Batboard's really talk about Futures End. It seems like Terry fans do occaisionally, but I've yet to see any serious discussion of Tim's part in it. I guess most of us just aren't seeing anything attention grabbing about his appearance there.

PS, do you remember that Beyond-esque costume To and Nicieza put him in in Red Robin's second to last issue?

----------


## Agent 37

> Have you been keeping up with Futures End? Is Tim actually becoming Batman Beyond? Because I thought that was just an unsubstantiated rumor.
> 
> And its kind of funny how few people on the Batboard's really talk about Futures End. It seems like Terry fans do occaisionally, but I've yet to see any serious discussion of Tim's part in it. I guess most of us just aren't seeing anything attention grabbing about his appearance there.
> 
> PS, do you remember that Beyond-esque costume To and Nicieza put him in in Red Robin's second to last issue?


I have to admit, I haven't read an issue of futures end other then the last two, just to see if the Batman Beyond switch-a-roo was really happening. 

I've not followed many DC books other than Grayson and Batman, so I could be really uneducated in saying I like the idea of Tim taking up the Batman Beyond mantle, if it's legitimate or not.  I enjoyed the tv series, and Terry's take on Batman, but I like a former Robin carrying the Batman torch (of sorts) in the future.

If I'm off base in assuming that this is the case someone please correct me!

Ps. I don't recall the costume your speaking of but I'll look it up.

----------


## Sacred Knight

Tim concretely becomes "Batman Beyond" in Futures End, yes.

----------


## godisawesome

Huh. Well, this is kind of perplexing. Just about everyone has been treating Futures End as being one of those non-canonical future timelines. Is it still looking like it's likely to be that? And will that mean that if Tim does replace Terry in the upcoming solo, that'll be his canonical destination? Or is it just an attempt to shake up things again?

I really like Terry. I really like Tim. But I don't know if I'll like Tim playing with all of Terry's toys. Still think a solo or team book with Steph and Harper would be the better way to go. Or at least something where they can embrace Tim as a young hero with a still very relevant personal life and peer group. If this is the new Tim solo...it just has a lot of disadvantages to accompany the advantages, and I still think there's huge potential in a more Nightwing/Robin solo book right now, since after Convergence, there's still nothing like that.

----------


## Dataweaver

“We are Robin!”  At least, that’s where I’m placing my hopes.  We know we’re going to be getting a multitude of youths taking up the notion of Robin, which basically sounds like “organize the kids of Gotham into a ‘gang’ of sorts that’s dedicated to supporting Batman’s efforts to clean up Gotham”.  If done wrong, it could go ugly very fast; if done right, it could be just the sort of thing to _actually_ improve Gotham.  

And it’s exactly the sort of thing I could see Tim organizing and managing, just to make sure it’s done right.  I don’t know about the New 52 Tim; but the one I’m familiar with always viewed the traditional costumed crimefighter thing to be temporary.  And he’s always been on the lookout for more effective ways to make a difference.  

And if the “we are Robin” movement takes the name a bit less literally (that is, less “Robin” and more “Batman’s sidekick/protégé/successor”), you could even fit Spoiler, Bluebird, Black Bat, and/or “Foxy Lady” into its ranks (though she _really_ needs a better codename).  Or not.

On the Batman Beyond thing, I’m not thrilled with it; that should be Terry’s thing, not Tim’s.  If Tim _has_ to co-opt someone else’s identity, I’d rather he stick to Red Robin (co-opted in spirit from Kingdom Come’s Dick Grayson) or Oracle (hey; since Babs isn’t using it, why not?).

----------


## Dzetoun

> Huh. Well, this is kind of perplexing. Just about everyone has been treating Futures End as being one of those non-canonical future timelines. Is it still looking like it's likely to be that? And will that mean that if Tim does replace Terry in the upcoming solo, that'll be his canonical destination? Or is it just an attempt to shake up things again?
> 
> I really like Terry. I really like Tim. But I don't know if I'll like Tim playing with all of Terry's toys. Still think a solo or team book with Steph and Harper would be the better way to go. Or at least something where they can embrace Tim as a young hero with a still very relevant personal life and peer group. If this is the new Tim solo...it just has a lot of disadvantages to accompany the advantages, and I still think there's huge potential in a more Nightwing/Robin solo book right now, since after Convergence, there's still nothing like that.


The Tim that becomes Batman Beyond is Tim from five years in the future.  In that timeline, now destroyed in story, he has become embittered and left the superhero trade, leaving his relationship with Bruce filled with anger and recrimination. We don't know how he relates to the rest of the Bat Family, other than that he says Dick Grayson is "a good guy." In any case, with his own timeline undone by events, he is evidently going to leap forward 35 years to a Kamandi post-disaster world.  

Supposedly the new timeline is the official history of the DCU.  Yeah, whatever.  But in the meantime, as all this begins with a Tim from five years in the future, present-day Tim probably won't be affected.

----------


## Agent 37

> “We are Robin!”  At least, that’s where I’m placing my hopes.  We know we’re going to be getting a multitude of youths taking up the notion of Robin, which basically sounds like “organize the kids of Gotham into a ‘gang’ of sorts that’s dedicated to supporting Batman’s efforts to clean up Gotham”.  If done wrong, it could go ugly very fast; if done right, it could be just the sort of thing to _actually_ improve Gotham.  
> 
> And it’s exactly the sort of thing I could see Tim organizing and managing, just to make sure it’s done right.  I don’t know about the New 52 Tim; but the one I’m familiar with always viewed the traditional costumed crimefighter thing to be temporary.  And he’s always been on the lookout for more effective ways to make a difference.  
> 
> And if the “we are Robin” movement takes the name a bit less literally (that is, less “Robin” and more “Batman’s sidekick/protégé/successor”), you could even fit Spoiler, Bluebird, Black Bat, and/or “Foxy Lady” into its ranks (though she _really_ needs a better codename).  Or not.
> 
> On the Batman Beyond thing, I’m not thrilled with it; that should be Terry’s thing, not Tim’s.  If Tim _has_ to co-opt someone else’s identity, I’d rather he stick to Red Robin (co-opted in spirit from Kingdom Come’s Dick Grayson) or Oracle (hey; since Babs isn’t using it, why not?).


Totally agree, Tim as the leader of the "We are Robin" movement would certainly give the group some validity, and would make sense. I'm still really on the fence about that title as the a Robin identity has gotten so watered down now, it doesn't seem as special. There better be some serious homage paying to all Robins, especially Dick Grayson, or it'll be a waste.

I didn't read the Red Robin solo, so I don't have the attachment to the identity you would. I dabbled in his Robin solo run years ago, so the idea of a "definitive" future Batman being a former Robin appeals to me more than Terry (although I liked him as well). It's a tough call!




> The Tim that becomes Batman Beyond is Tim from five years in the future.  In that timeline, now destroyed in story, he has become embittered and left the superhero trade, leaving his relationship with Bruce filled with anger and recrimination. We don't know how he relates to the rest of the Bat Family, other than that he says Dick Grayson is "a good guy." In any case, with his own timeline undone by events, he is evidently going to leap forward 35 years to a Kamandi post-disaster world.  
> 
> Supposedly the new timeline is the official history of the DCU.  Yeah, whatever.  But in the meantime, as all this begins with a Tim from five years in the future, present-day Tim probably won't be affected.


The Kamandi storyline is actually what made me think of checking out the new upcoming Batman Beyond title, post convergeance. Then after reading solicits I checked out the last few issues of Futures End.

 I've never read the Kamandi books, but it seems like a pretty interesting take on a possible future. Then throwing Batman Beyond ( a NEW Batman Beyond ) into that mix, seems like a really different book. 

I'm hoping you are correct about present day Tim not being affected. June solicits don't show/mention him in Teen Titans, but it could be just a ploy by DC to get people thinking. We'll see.




> Huh. Well, this is kind of perplexing. Just about everyone has been treating Futures End as being one of those non-canonical future timelines. Is it still looking like it's likely to be that? And will that mean that if Tim does replace Terry in the upcoming solo, that'll be his canonical destination? Or is it just an attempt to shake up things again?
> 
> I really like Terry. I really like Tim. But I don't know if I'll like Tim playing with all of Terry's toys. Still think a solo or team book with Steph and Harper would be the better way to go. Or at least something where they can embrace Tim as a young hero with a still very relevant personal life and peer group. If this is the new Tim solo...it just has a lot of disadvantages to accompany the advantages, and I still think there's huge potential in a more Nightwing/Robin solo book right now, since after Convergence, there's still nothing like that.


I'd love a Nightwing/Robin solo book, but if that wish was ever answered it HAS to star Dick and Damian, IMO. While they are at a wish list, they could fire up a classic Titans book with the Wolfman/Perez titans, and make the current Teen Titans worthwhile again.  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> The Tim that becomes Batman Beyond is Tim from five years in the future.  In that timeline, now destroyed in story, he has become embittered and left the superhero trade, leaving his relationship with Bruce filled with anger and recrimination. We don't know how he relates to the rest of the Bat Family, other than that he says Dick Grayson is "a good guy." In any case, with his own timeline undone by events, he is evidently going to leap forward 35 years to a Kamandi post-disaster world.  
> 
> Supposedly the new timeline is the official history of the DCU.  Yeah, whatever.  But in the meantime, as all this begins with a Tim from five years in the future, present-day Tim probably won't be affected.


As someone who has read most of the "Great Disaster" material from the 60/70`s line of titles, from hunting all down, I think it`s a pleasant take from the office. Not sure if they will present it as "the" Future, since that will always be manegeable to whatever runs are being published, but that material was balsy and interesting, not to mention hella creative.

----------


## Aioros22

> The Kamandi storyline is actually what made me think of checking out the new upcoming Batman Beyond title, post convergeance. Then after reading solicits I checked out the last few issues of Futures End.
> 
>  I've never read the Kamandi books, but it seems like a pretty interesting take on a possible future. Then throwing Batman Beyond ( a NEW Batman Beyond ) into that mix, seems like a really different book


Pick up the 1rst (I hope) Volume of the SHOWCASE collection about the Great Disaster that came out last year. It features the three main titles of the line: Kamandi, Hercules Unbound and The Atomic Knights, among others. A shame Omac so far isn`t there, since it reads as an introduction to that future, but with all the Kirby`s stories already collected in his own set of TPB, I can see why. 

Pardon if I sound like a fanboy selling it up, but I`m just extasic that the lineup is coming back after such a long time and hints (all by Morrison, funilly enough).

----------


## Agent 37

> Pick up the 1rst (I hope) Volume of the SHOWCASE collection about the Great Disaster that came out last year. It features the three main titles of the line: Kamandi, Hercules Unbound and The Atomic Knights, among others. A shame Omac so far isn`t there, since it reads as an introduction to that future, but with all the Kirby`s stories already collected in his own set of TPB, I can see why. 
> 
> Pardon if I sound like a fanboy selling it up, but I`m just extasic that the lineup is coming back after such a long time and hints (all by Morrison, funilly enough).


Since you are in the know about the Kamandi timeline (if that's the proper term), what's your take on a version of Batman in this future, if you don't mind me asking?

What characters from the Kamandi era could you see have recurring roles in the ongoing?

----------


## UltimateTy

Anyone up to date with Teen Titans, Is Tim getting written better now?

----------


## Vinsanity

> Anyone up to date with Teen Titans, Is Tim getting written better now?


Ehhhhhhhhhhhh

----------


## godisawesome

Near as I can tell, the situation breaks down likewise:

Teen Titans has a more consistent quality and tone than Lobdell's last dozen issues or so, with a definite theme and chemistry. Some are complaining, however, that the book is really more of a Manchester Black solo guest-starring the Titans, and that the team's portrayal on an individual basis still isn't up to par. I don't know for sure; the first few reviews sounded like an archetypal teen hero book with little to really set it apart, with nothing really impressive happening to Tim that couldn't have happened to any other Robin in the story, and I'm a cheap, Red Robin centered fanboy. Plus, after the crash and burn of Lobdell's run, I pretty much would have needed a complete break from everything about the character personalities and relationships he built up, and it seems the re numbering was more of a half,ensure than anything concrete, since once again the team has plans that are pulled out of nowhere, seem to have little social interaction with each other outside of one or two character friendships, and is about to have yet another "Superboy goes nuts" storyline.

We Are Robin seems, currently, to have no immediate plans to connect to any pre-established Gotha hero. Duke is the new leader of the book, and while details are sparse, it seems Bermejo wants to run with a largely original cast in a very low-tech, Warriors-style gang of vigilantes. The closest tease we've got that there may be other, established heroes on the roster is the cover, with a Blonde girl in a hoodie who kind of looks like Steph, and the divebombing girl with goggles and bluish hair, who might be Haper or Cass if you squint, alongside the accepted supposition that with both Harper and Steph coming out of Eternal, it seems like a natural decision to give them some kind of book to star in, and if the Convergence issue are any indication, at least one DC talent has seen an appeal to a three person ensemble of Tim and Steph with a third member.

Convergence itself, and the Batgirl issues, had an interview focusing on my generation's Bat-sidekicks and why the writer was putting the three together. She really likes the chemistry of the characters from the old Dixon days, which bodes very well for fans who feel that his work remains the gold standard for teen Gothamites. There's also an accepted notion that if the two parter sold well enough, some kind of Steph book would be considered, as would a Cass return and perhaps a return of Tim under the Batman books editorial umbrella, which I think would do the character some good, since I don't think the Titans editorial really cares for anything that makes him unique and just wants a Robin archetype.

----------


## Agent 37

> Anyone up to date with Teen Titans, Is Tim getting written better now?


I've been trying to keep current with it.

Not being a Debbie Downer, but it's fairly bland. All the characters feel flat, Tim included.

----------


## Aioros22

> Since you are in the know about the Kamandi timeline (if that's the proper term), what's your take on a version of Batman in this future, if you don't mind me asking?


Batman`s inclusion in this future is via time travel crossovers like Brave and the Bold and Generations. There aren`t many hints in the actual stories that I recall. Superman`s final story was hinted in Kamandi upon a now classic cover by Kirby where his costume is found in his travels: http://supermanica.wiki/index.php/Kamandi

Superman later actually met both the Atomic Knights and Hercules http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_57, where, due to the original Crisis, it was revealed that the whole Future (sans Kamandi whose character was simply changed as growing up to becoming Tommy tomorrow) was an illusion of Gardner Grayle ("the" Atomic Knight of the Outsiders). Morrison since Animal Man has shown that it actually happened and let the door open, all the while exploring issues of it in his works, like Final Crisis and so. 

Batman Beyond doesn`t mesh directly with the "Great Disaster" in terms of the type of apocaliptical asthetics. It`s more of a Blade Runner vibe, whereas the rest is Mad Max. So I personally can`t wait to see how they are going to mesh the two lineups. 

It could fit in more with Morrison`s take on Damian`s actual hellish breakthrough in Gotham as described both in Batman R.I.P and Batman INC, maybe before the events of OMAC who leads to that future. The main consideration for the cataclysm in the lineup (all the books gave different explanations about the nature/origin of the cataclysm) was global scale spreading radiation. So I think the theme would fit. 




> What characters from the Kamandi era could you see have recurring roles in the ongoing?


Fitting BB the way I tried, the logical ones right now are OMAC and the Atomic Knight(s). Hercules starts his journey in the post apocalyptical Earth after being magically chained in an Island far away any land (it`s hinted he witnessed/heard the cataclysm happening) for untold years, so he couldn`t be out yet. But the "Atomic Knight" past the first Crisis was an actual hero in the presente age. So..dunno. 

Omac and Brother eye are easiest to connect with. But where this would place Kamandi himself I don`t know, since he`s the grandson of OMAC`s alter ego.

----------


## Sacred Knight

> Huh. Well, this is kind of perplexing. Just about everyone has been treating Futures End as being one of those non-canonical future timelines. Is it still looking like it's likely to be that? And will that mean that if Tim does replace Terry in the upcoming solo, that'll be his canonical destination? Or is it just an attempt to shake up things again?
> 
> I really like Terry. I really like Tim. But I don't know if I'll like Tim playing with all of Terry's toys. Still think a solo or team book with Steph and Harper would be the better way to go. Or at least something where they can embrace Tim as a young hero with a still very relevant personal life and peer group. If this is the new Tim solo...it just has a lot of disadvantages to accompany the advantages, and I still think there's huge potential in a more Nightwing/Robin solo book right now, since after Convergence, there's still nothing like that.


Its a bit complex, but it goes down like this: Terry originally planned to travel back in time to the present day.  It was here where he needed to shut down Brother Eye.  But his jump is compromised and he overshoots his landing, hence ending up in the 5YL time line. Fast forward to this week's issue and, after Terry's death, Tim accepts the job of fixing time.  Via some help, he finally manages to recharge the device which let Terry travel through time in the first place, and Tim jumps to present day DCU like Terry had originally intended.  There he succeeds in changing what needs to be changed (shuts down Brother Eye).  Tim then makes one more jump back into the future, but where he lands due to the things he's changed is left a mystery.  So where things stand now, Tim has seemingly averted the Futures End timeline, but he still exists, and he has landed at an unknown point in a changed future.

So the way things are looking now, Jurgens Batman Beyond book will be about the Futures End version of Tim Drake, as Batman Beyond, navigating a new future, what they're touting as the "canonical" future of the DCU (until they decide its not, lol).

----------


## Aioros22

> Its a bit complex, but it goes down like this: Terry originally planned to travel back in time to the present day.  It was here where he needed to shut down Brother Eye.  But his jump is compromised and he overshoots his landing, hence ending up in the 5YL time line. Fast forward to this week's issue and, after Terry's death, Tim accepts the job of fixing time.  Via some help, he finally manages to recharge the device which let Terry travel through time in the first place, and Tim jumps to present day DCU like Terry had originally intended.  There he succeeds in changing what needs to be changed (shuts down Brother Eye).  Tim then makes one more jump back into the future, but where he lands due to the things he's changed is left a mystery.  So where things stand now, Tim has seemingly averted the Futures End timeline, but he still exists, and he has landed at an unknown point in a changed future.
> 
> So the way things are looking now, Jurgens Batman Beyond book will be about the Futures End version of Tim Drake, as Batman Beyond, navigating a new future, what they're touting as the "canonical" future of the DCU (until they decide its not, lol).


Still have to catch up the last issues but that Future being the GD means a "BB" fits in via time travel/alternative future erasing. I guess the book will be about Tim trying to return to his proper Future while dealing with this one?

Great Scott, Marty!

----------


## Sacred Knight

Yeah, at its heart it actually has the makings of a love story I think, with Tim trying to find his way back to Madison (Firestorm), whom he was reunited with just before he went back in time.

----------


## Agent 37

> Batman`s inclusion in this future is via time travel crossovers like Brave and the Bold and Generations. There aren`t many hints in the actual stories that I recall. Superman`s final story was hinted in Kamandi upon a now classic cover by Kirby where his costume is found in his travels: http://supermanica.wiki/index.php/Kamandi
> 
> Superman later actually met both the Atomic Knights and Hercules http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_57, where, due to the original Crisis, it was revealed that the whole Future (sans Kamandi whose character was simply changed as growing up to becoming Tommy tomorrow) was an illusion of Gardner Grayle ("the" Atomic Knight of the Outsiders). Morrison since Animal Man has shown that it actually happened and let the door open, all the while exploring issues of it in his works, like Final Crisis and so. 
> 
> Batman Beyond doesn`t mesh directly with the "Great Disaster" in terms of the type of apocaliptical asthetics. It`s more of a Blade Runner vibe, whereas the rest is Mad Max. So I personally can`t wait to see how they are going to mesh the two lineups. 
> 
> It could fit in more with Morrison`s take on Damian`s actual hellish breakthrough in Gotham as described both in Batman R.I.P and Batman INC, maybe before the events of OMAC who leads to that future. The main consideration for the cataclysm in the lineup (all the books gave different explanations about the nature/origin of the cataclysm) was global scale spreading radiation. So I think the theme would fit. 
> 
> 
> ...





> Its a bit complex, but it goes down like this: Terry originally planned to travel back in time to the present day.  It was here where he needed to shut down Brother Eye.  But his jump is compromised and he overshoots his landing, hence ending up in the 5YL time line. Fast forward to this week's issue and, after Terry's death, Tim accepts the job of fixing time.  Via some help, he finally manages to recharge the device which let Terry travel through time in the first place, and Tim jumps to present day DCU like Terry had originally intended.  There he succeeds in changing what needs to be changed (shuts down Brother Eye).  Tim then makes one more jump back into the future, but where he lands due to the things he's changed is left a mystery.  So where things stand now, Tim has seemingly averted the Futures End timeline, but he still exists, and he has landed at an unknown point in a changed future.
> 
> So the way things are looking now, Jurgens Batman Beyond book will be about the Futures End version of Tim Drake, as Batman Beyond, navigating a new future, what they're touting as the "canonical" future of the DCU (until they decide its not, lol).


Thanks both for the rundown. I'm actually really excited to try the first arc (at least) of this series. Much appreciated!

----------


## Vinsanity

> Near as I can tell, the situation breaks down likewise:
> 
> Teen Titans has a more consistent quality and tone than Lobdell's last dozen issues or so, with a definite theme and *chemistry*. Some are complaining, however, that the book is really more of a Manchester Black solo guest-starring the Titans, and that the team's portrayal on an individual basis still isn't up to par. I don't know for sure; the first few reviews sounded like an archetypal teen hero book with little to really set it apart, with nothing really impressive happening to Tim that couldn't have happened to any other Robin in the story, and I'm a cheap, Red Robin centered fanboy. Plus, after the crash and burn of Lobdell's run, I pretty much would have needed a complete break from everything about the character personalities and relationships he built up, and it seems the re numbering was more of a half,ensure than anything concrete, since once again the team has plans that are pulled out of nowhere, seem to have little social interaction with each other outside of one or two character friendships, and is about to have yet another "Superboy goes nuts" storyline.



Yeah...I don't see the chemistry tbqh.

----------


## godisawesome

Some people are being complimentary of Beast Boy and Bunker right now, kind of like how most people loved that one issue where Wondergirl and Superboy are stranded on an island and flirt. It's the only concerted effort at building chemistry, so it stands out in a series that otherwise has even less camaraderie.

I'm not really seeing it either, but its what the people who like the book have seen.

So are you guys grabbing the Convergence Batgirl book next week for Cowled Tim Drake goodness?

----------


## Styder24

Would it be possible to have Tim Drake get his own Red Robin solo book in the current timeline while Batman Beyond is out?

----------


## Sardorim

Didn't he overshoot 15 years in the future? If that's the case than it will look sad if Maddie never moved on as that's a long time.

-

No, I don't see that happening as it could hurt sales.

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, giving Tim a solo in Red Robin right now would seem to be counterproductive if they're really set on Batman Beyond being "his new book." It's just there's nothing to get me interested beyond the name Tim Drake, and Teen Titans Vol. 1 did a pretty good job of demonstrating how that's not a valid reason to buy a book.

Maybe we'll be lucky, and Batman Beyond will be the new hit of the decade...or be a dismal failure that editorial fixes by transitions it to a Red Robin book.

----------


## joybeans

Or it fails, and DC takes it as evidence that Tim Drake is no longer a marketable character  :Frown:  

I don't think a Red Robin street-level solo will be a possibility for a long time. What Tim needs is a Grayson-esque push into unknown territory, like Dick and Damian are getting.

----------


## AnnaSandhu

Guys, Tim Drake changed the future. He started out in the Earth 2 War, became a veteran, took over as Batman from Terry and then went back in time, changed the future and then arrived in 2050 to find NYC still destroyed by Brother Eye (even though the rest of the world seems relatively unscathed, although broken = Earth AD). In the final issue of Futures End, it is noted that Tim changed the events around himself. What that means is that the Tim in Titans will eventually meet Madison Payne, take over from Terry, travel back in time to stop Brother Eye and get transported to the future (at which point the Tim in Titans and the Tim in Futures End cease to be separate people). To make it more sensible, think of Wolverine from the new X-Men movie. He went back in time and changed everything, he has no collection of what he did in the new future because he only remembers the old one. It does not mean his character was inactive, only that the Wolverine of the New Timeline was wiped when the future aligned with that of the old one.

----------


## K. Jones

> Batman`s inclusion in this future is via time travel crossovers like Brave and the Bold and Generations. There aren`t many hints in the actual stories that I recall. Superman`s final story was hinted in Kamandi upon a now classic cover by Kirby where his costume is found in his travels: http://supermanica.wiki/index.php/Kamandi
> 
> Superman later actually met both the Atomic Knights and Hercules http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Presents_Vol_1_57, where, due to the original Crisis, it was revealed that the whole Future (sans Kamandi whose character was simply changed as growing up to becoming Tommy tomorrow) was an illusion of Gardner Grayle ("the" Atomic Knight of the Outsiders). Morrison since Animal Man has shown that it actually happened and let the door open, all the while exploring issues of it in his works, like Final Crisis and so. 
> 
> Batman Beyond doesn`t mesh directly with the "Great Disaster" in terms of the type of apocaliptical asthetics. It`s more of a Blade Runner vibe, whereas the rest is Mad Max. So I personally can`t wait to see how they are going to mesh the two lineups. 
> 
> It could fit in more with Morrison`s take on Damian`s actual hellish breakthrough in Gotham as described both in Batman R.I.P and Batman INC, maybe before the events of OMAC who leads to that future. The main consideration for the cataclysm in the lineup (all the books gave different explanations about the nature/origin of the cataclysm) was global scale spreading radiation. So I think the theme would fit. 
> 
> 
> ...


Kamandi being the grandson of the older, more experienced Buddy Blank thing was front and center in Countdown, but did it originate there? It doesn't jive with what I've read of Kirby - but I haven't followed up on all the post-Kirby Kirby, so to speak. But that said - while a novel concept, if it's from Countdown didn't it all take place on Earth-15, which is a blasted hellscape of a universe now? (It was I believe an advanced age universe - a "Near Future", because most of the 80s era post-Kirby sidekicks had grown up to become the heroes.)

It's one thing to bring in the elements that make for these potential futures in the mainstream DCU, but with the multiverse expansion, even Morrison seemed content to "isolate" great disaster futures, so like, Earth-17 is the John Broome version, Earth-51 is the Jack Kirby version (which presumably "began" with the Fourth World & The Demon, led to OMAC and led to Kamandi). If Bludhaven's Command-D Evil Factory and the Checkmate Castle's OMAC-as-heck basement were ostensible "Great Disaster Ground Zeroes", it was really other parallel worlds where the situations manifested. Which I guess jives with Earth-0 being the all-inclusive Keystone of the Multiverse. Ideas originate there, then are sprinkled out into further realities.

Anyway, back to the basics of the thing, I think the notion of Bernard Chang drawing the contrast between BB's obvious Blade Runner/Judge Dredd comparisons, and the Mad Max/Doomsday future of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles universe scenarios stuff of the Kirbyverse, and the even odder still Silver Age Atomic Knights stuff is the only reason I'll be checking out the book. Tim's inclusion is actually really ancillary for me. But a future where Neo-Gotham and only a few other megatropolis type cities are huge bastions of safety in a wildly dangerous doomsday world? That I can get behind. And it isn't even particularly contradictory to what we know of Batman Beyond - because that show RARELY left Neo-Gotham, and when it did it went to pretty exotic locales that could have survived disaster after disaster.

----------


## gwhh

The official DC comics book give Dick height as 5 5

Which is also step brown official height.

Does anyone else think that is odd??

----------


## godisawesome

The height for the Robins is all over the place. Dick's been 5'8" to 6' through a lot of them. Tim's usually got a height of 5'5 actually, especially when he's supposed to still be growing.

Speaking of, anybody else think it's funny how few artists can hit the sweet spot for a teenagers height and build? Tim looked just about right when drawn by Marcus To or Tom Grummet, but some guys can't seem to get his size right. Even Dustin Nguyen seems to just make him tiny unless he's drawing him as cowled Red Robin and going for an older look.

----------


## The Whovian

> The height for the Robins is all over the place. Dick's been 5'8" to 6' through a lot of them. Tim's usually got a height of 5'5 actually, especially when he's supposed to still be growing.
> 
> Speaking of, anybody else think it's funny how few artists can hit the sweet spot for a teenagers height and build? Tim looked just about right when drawn by Marcus To or Tom Grummet, but some guys can't seem to get his size right. Even Dustin Nguyen seems to just make him tiny unless he's drawing him as cowled Red Robin and going for an older look.


I always thought Grummet absolutely nailed Tim's height and build

----------


## joybeans

> The height for the Robins is all over the place. Dick's been 5'8" to 6' through a lot of them. Tim's usually got a height of 5'5 actually, especially when he's supposed to still be growing.
> 
> Speaking of, anybody else think it's funny how few artists can hit the sweet spot for a teenagers height and build? Tim looked just about right when drawn by Marcus To or Tom Grummet, but some guys can't seem to get his size right. Even Dustin Nguyen seems to just make him tiny unless he's drawing him as cowled Red Robin and going for an older look.


I'm always surprised by young Tim looked in Dini's Tec run, especially considering how similar in age Damian looks in Streets of Gotham.

----------


## Aioros22

> Kamandi being the grandson of the older, more experienced Buddy Blank thing was front and center in Countdown, but did it originate there?


From what I recall, that`s from Kirby`s cronology in the original books.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I always thought Grummet absolutely nailed Tim's height and build



This, but for me Marcus To was perfect depicting an older but not quite adult Tim, Bart, and Conner. Towards the end of the N52 they were basically freshman in college (18-19) and I thought To depicted that perfectly.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Where is Marcus To?  He should be the one drawing Teen Titans.  Then at least it would be worth looking at if not reading...

----------


## K. Jones

> From what I recall, that`s from Kirby`s cronology in the original books.


From the original run, but post-Kirby. I think it's something Denny O'Neil extrapolated from Kirby's implications. I was actually quite pleased and surprised to learn that in very short order after Jack finished his run, first that it was Denny who picked up the thing but also that again, in short order, they were already doing Kamandi/OMAC crossovers. So much of that particular arrangement informs all the stuff that came later that's just loaded with Kirby - John Byrne's Metropolis (and OMAC mini), the 90s Superboy run, up to Morrison. And frankly even Countdown. Or even Wolfman's recent Convergence tie-ins. Not the Titans ones ... the Earth A.D. ones. I'm forgetting already, but I'm pretty sure he did something with rat-men and OMAC and the Godmother. And the Hawkmen two-parter, too, it was brilliant to pair the Hawks up against Earth A.D. bat-people and the like. Thanagar always had a bit in common with Earth A.D.

----------


## gwhh

Hopefully, when they age Step Brown into an adult.  They don't make her 5 11 like Babs Gordon, Batwoman, and the huntress, etc!  

5 7 would be a prefect height for her! 

But my favorite height for a lady is 5 5!   





> The official DC comics book give Dick height as 5 5
> 
> Which is also step brown official height.
> 
> Does anyone else think that is odd??

----------


## godisawesome

So, Batman and Robin Eternal #5 has this description attached to it:

Grayson vs Red Robin! Grayson digs deeper into Red Robin's *true* origins. Will he find the answers he seeks, or will it splinter the Bat-team forever!

Anybody else getting their hopes up?

----------


## darkseidpwns

I think the best thing they could do with Tim is give him a job at Foxtek,return his parents and supporting characters,relocate him to Bludhaven. Make it like a Spider-Man comic.

----------


## Vinsanity

> So, Batman and Robin Eternal #5 has this description attached to it:
> 
> Grayson vs Red Robin! Grayson digs deeper into Red Robin's *true* origins. Will he find the answers he seeks, or will it splinter the Bat-team forever!
> 
> Anybody else getting their hopes up?


No.

It will be a bait or something.

----------


## godisawesome

Well, we know we're going to get some kind of twist introduced via his apparent sleeper personality under Mother's control. So his past is being changed at least a little bit; the question is how much. And it'll be followed up by Red Hood and him going after Bane.

----------


## KrustyKid

> So, Batman and Robin Eternal #5 has this description attached to it:
> 
> Grayson vs Red Robin! Grayson digs deeper into Red Robin's *true* origins. Will he find the answers he seeks, or will it splinter the Bat-team forever!
> 
> Anybody else getting their hopes up?


I am certainly looking forward to it.

----------


## KrustyKid

I made my first New52 Tim Drake tribute video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adA6XbOOo-I

I thought I'd share it here with you guys.

----------


## TRS80

I want an on going series with a young Tim Drake as Robin. I dont care how they do it. Time travel, alternate universe, flashback, or reset continuity. DC make it happen!

----------


## Vinsanity

> I want an on going series with a young Tim Drake as Robin. I dont care how they do it. Time travel, alternate universe, flashback, or reset continuity. DC make it happen!


Would like a mini series of all the Robin's adventure when they were with the Bats.

----------


## StaticShock99

Hopefully "Rebirth" restores Tim's history as Robin. DC needs to get it together.

----------


## The Whovian

> Hopefully "Rebirth" restores Tim's history as Robin. DC needs to get it together.


Was just about to say this. Get it done DC

----------


## godisawesome

I'd hope the entire landscape of teen heroes launched under the "Young Justice" banner during the New 52 gets a new life separate from whatever force is messing up the current Teen Titans book. Tim's first and foremost to me, but it still strikes me as kind of pathetic that they couldn't even keep one monthly running continuously when they had the collective teen heroes of what were three separate comic companies.

Tim's a proven seller, but his two main books now get mocked online by most people here and elsewhere, and even those who support the books don't seem to be the type who's run away from a return to a higher standard of writing. Batman Beyond fans who still read that book are eating it for the story, not for the characters, and the people who seem to like Teen Titans seem more like action junkies to me. Ideally, I'd love to see FabNic back on a Tim Drake solo and on this forum commenting on his books, but I'd take those two guys from B&R:E who are subbing in for Seeley and King on Grayson in a few months, or really any other aspiring writers who are under Bat-editorial control.

Just keep them away from the graveyard that is Superman editorial. Because Red Hood and the Outlaws/Arsenal seem to be the only accepted book from that office, and that's really kind of damning considering it's mostly an unambitious buddy book written by an author with a vocal hatedom.

----------


## Vinsanity

I would say scrap YJ/TT mainly because it's done. The concept is old in comics.

Give him a solo, make it light. Have Cassie and Bunker as co-stars and boom you have a book. Bunker as Lobdell wrote him (don't hurt me) is a fun character, he brings the humor. Cassie is a solid character and works well with Tim as they are two strong headed people and I like the couple, so whatever.

----------


## Vinsanity

EDIT: Double Post

----------


## byrd156

> I would say scrap YJ/TT mainly because it's done. The concept is old in comics.
> 
> Give him a solo, make it light. Have Cassie and Bunker as co-stars and boom you have a book. Bunker as Lobdell wrote him (don't hurt me) is a fun character, he brings the humor. Cassie is a solid character and works well with Tim as they are two strong headed people and I like the couple, so whatever.


Yeah team books are old and should stop being made....  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## godisawesome

> I would say scrap YJ/TT mainly because it's done. The concept is old in comics.
> 
> Give him a solo, make it light. Have Cassie and Bunker as co-stars and boom you have a book. Bunker as Lobdell wrote him (don't hurt me) is a fun character, he brings the humor. Cassie is a solid character and works well with Tim as they are two strong headed people and I like the couple, so whatever.


I would never begrudge you Bunker-as-written-by-Lobdell. That's literally the one and only thing which I've ever felt the need to mark as good throughout Lobdell's run; I loathe the way he treated all previously established characters, I loathed the declining quality in the book, I even loathed simply the way he wrote comics with thought bubbles, boxes, and expository dialogue all on the same page while someone is in mid-kick. But he actually wrote Bunker in an enjoyable way...probably because editorial almost certainly never gave him any marching orders and he was in new territory for himself as well, so he didn't have to try and hammer Bunker into some tired 90's X-Men archetype.

I will, however, vehemently oppose and complain and gripe and groan over any more Tim/Cassie nonsense. Why? I'm also a Superboy fan and a Young Justice fan, so I think she and Superboy should at least have a fun relationship first, and I really don't like any portrayal of blonde Wondergirl outside of the tail end of Young Justice. She had a personality and attitude that elevated her to team leader and was a nice blend of geek and team captain, then she suddenly started becoming the "Alpha Blonde" cliche under 
Johns, and it only got worse from there.

Also, I'd rather any reference or call back or heck, anything associated with both characters' rape-by-proxy in Teen Titans be eradicated.

----------


## JaggedFel

Actually I am interested in what the Young Justice Lineup looks like because it tells me where DC is going with young adult and teen characters in their movies I think....Batman books wont tell much of anything because Batman is all about publishing as much as possible to profit but the teen characters will be revealing based on JL vs Titans animated movie and dc cinematic universe I expect to see 
1) Nightwing (1st Robin, Teen Titans Cartoon, Rumored in the new movie universe), Cyborg (Confirmed for Movies, Teen Titans Cartoon)
2) Beast Boy, Raven, Starfire (Teen Titans Cartoon, Most Iconic Run)
3) Red Hood (Hinted at in Movies, Fun Story Arc, Fallen Robin works well) and Damian Robin (Getting Pushed Hard)
4) Blue Beetle (DC be dumb to not to capitalize on the Latin@ Market...Bunker is great but no ones risky International BO on a gay character), Supergirl (she has a show), Red Arrow (possible on a show), Wally West (be on a show possible), Barbara Gordon (against 1st probably as Oracle though if you see her)

After this it becomes more messy

Batman Family Wise I think Tim is the odd robin out he aint the first, he aint the current and unlike Red Hood....Red Robin is not nearly distinct, Cass Cain (DC hates her but if I am WB, I like an Asian Heroine in my biggest franchise to sell to Asia)

Tim's Friends are a mess as well Impulse (I doubt it), Superboy ( has been a mess lately but good pathos if you go with Lex/Clark DNA plus if Doomsday is from Zod trying to fix errors can make sense in a movie context), Wonder Girls (in serious danger always a mess extremely doubtful), Miss Martian (Martian Manhunter is on tv but losing his spot in the JL hurts still shapeshifter and telepath could work I think they should add telekinesis maybe, Aqua Characters (have to wait for Aquaman possible though if the first does well). Static (Milestone and DC is a mess).

----------


## Aahz

> Actually I am interested in what the Young Justice Lineup looks like because it tells me where DC is going with young adult and teen characters in their movies I think....Batman books wont tell much of anything because Batman is all about publishing as much as possible to profit but the teen characters will be revealing based on JL vs Titans animated movie and dc cinematic universe I expect to see 
> 1) Nightwing (1st Robin, Teen Titans Cartoon, Rumored in the new movie universe), Cyborg (Confirmed for Movies, Teen Titans Cartoon)
> 2) Beast Boy, Raven, Starfire (Teen Titans Cartoon, Most Iconic Run)
> 3) Red Hood (Hinted at in Movies, Fun Story Arc, Fallen Robin works well) and Damian Robin (Getting Pushed Hard)
> 4) Blue Beetle (DC be dumb to not to capitalize on the Latin@ Market...Bunker is great but no ones risky International BO on a gay character), Supergirl (she has a show), Red Arrow (possible on a show), Wally West (be on a show possible), Barbara Gordon (against 1st probably as Oracle though if you see her)
> 
> After this it becomes more messy
> 
> Batman Family Wise I think Tim is the odd robin out he aint the first, he aint the current and unlike Red Hood....Red Robin is not nearly distinct, Cass Cain (DC hates her but if I am WB, I like an Asian Heroine in my biggest franchise to sell to Asia)
> ...


Damian is hard to pull of in real live movies especially when you are going for a darker tone. If they include him he will be probably very different from the Comic version.

With Cass the problem is also that the movies aren't really marials arts movies. And if you want an Asian Heroine Katana is probably a better choice, since she is easier to write and is actually from Asia, opposed to Cass who is half Asian and doesn't really have an Asian cultural background.

And since most DC seems to go for quite dark movies, I doubt that we will see goofier characters like Impulse, Beast Boy, Bunker ... or if they appear they will probably different than the comic versions.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damian is hard to pull of in real live movies especially when you are going for a darker tone. If they include him he will be probably very different from the Comic version.
> 
> With Cass the problem is also that the movies aren't really marials arts movies. And if you want an Asian Heroine Katana is probably a better choice, since she is easier to write and is actually from Asia, opposed to Cass who is half Asian and doesn't really have an Asian cultural background.
> 
> And since most DC seems to go for quite dark movies, I doubt that we will see goofier characters like Impulse, Beast Boy, Bunker ... or if they appear they will probably different than the comic versions.



Not realy, batman is already older, in this film universe, So a previous fling with talia could exist, damian can exist. The only drawback is that damian will age, but then again so will whatever actor playing batman, time will go by so for live action actors it cant be stopped anyway.

Plus if people Liked Hitgirl, then they will like Damian live action. 

Yeah tim is at the bottom of the robin pole

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damian is hard to pull of in real live movies especially when you are going for a darker tone. If they include him he will be probably very different from the Comic version.
> 
> With Cass the problem is also that the movies aren't really marials arts movies. And if you want an Asian Heroine Katana is probably a better choice, since she is easier to write and is actually from Asia, opposed to Cass who is half Asian and doesn't really have an Asian cultural background.
> 
> And since most DC seems to go for quite dark movies, I doubt that we will see goofier characters like Impulse, Beast Boy, Bunker ... or if they appear they will probably different than the comic versions.



Not realy, batman is already older, in this film universe, So a previous fling with talia could exist, damian can exist. The only drawback is that damian will age, but then again so will whatever actor playing batman, time will go by so for live action actors it cant be stopped anyway.

Plus if people Liked Hitgirl, then they will like Damian live action. 

Yeah tim is at the bottom of the robin pole

----------


## JaggedFel

Agreed with above. I thing Damian works quite well in a darker universe besides Batman trying one more Robin but this time his son is something we havent seen in live action and makes more sense as a pickup then another random kid who isnt related to him...Plus Batman is old so you can kill him and get the Bat Dick with Damian Robin eventually.

As for Katana sure she is good but distinctly Japanese. Cass Cain though as Chinese now that is useful and again Katana is not directly connected to Batman compared to Cass.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I would never begrudge you Bunker-as-written-by-Lobdell. That's literally the one and only thing which I've ever felt the need to mark as good throughout Lobdell's run; I loathe the way he treated all previously established characters, I loathed the declining quality in the book, I even loathed simply the way he wrote comics with thought bubbles, boxes, and expository dialogue all on the same page while someone is in mid-kick. But he actually wrote Bunker in an enjoyable way...probably because editorial almost certainly never gave him any marching orders and he was in new territory for himself as well, so he didn't have to try and hammer Bunker into some tired 90's X-Men archetype.
> 
> I will, however, vehemently oppose and complain and gripe and groan over any more Tim/Cassie nonsense. Why? I'm also a Superboy fan and a Young Justice fan, so I think she and Superboy should at least have a fun relationship first, and I really don't like any portrayal of blonde Wondergirl outside of the tail end of Young Justice. She had a personality and attitude that elevated her to team leader and was a nice blend of geek and team captain, then she suddenly started becoming the "Alpha Blonde" cliche under 
> Johns, and it only got worse from there.
> 
> Also, I'd rather any reference or call back or heck, anything associated with both characters' rape-by-proxy in Teen Titans be eradicated.


I agree about Johns' Cassie. I liked Lobdell's Cassie a lot better. I personally like the couple but even if they weren't I could see them being like really close as friends. Never liked Superboy/Cassie cause Johns.




> Actually I am interested in what the Young Justice Lineup looks like because it tells me where DC is going with young adult and teen characters in their movies I think....Batman books wont tell much of anything because Batman is all about publishing as much as possible to profit but the teen characters will be revealing based on JL vs Titans animated movie and dc cinematic universe I expect to see 
> 1) Nightwing (1st Robin, Teen Titans Cartoon, Rumored in the new movie universe), Cyborg (Confirmed for Movies, Teen Titans Cartoon)
> 2) Beast Boy, Raven, Starfire (Teen Titans Cartoon, Most Iconic Run)
> 3) Red Hood (Hinted at in Movies, Fun Story Arc, Fallen Robin works well) and Damian Robin (Getting Pushed Hard)
> 4) Blue Beetle (DC be dumb to not to capitalize on the Latin@ Market...Bunker is great but no ones risky International BO on a gay character), Supergirl (she has a show), Red Arrow (possible on a show), Wally West (be on a show possible), Barbara Gordon (against 1st probably as Oracle though if you see her)
> 
> After this it becomes more messy
> 
> Batman Family Wise I think Tim is the odd robin out he aint the first, he aint the current and unlike Red Hood....Red Robin is not nearly distinct, Cass Cain (DC hates her but if I am WB, I like an Asian Heroine in my biggest franchise to sell to Asia)
> ...


I would like Superboy to stay away from those characters until he establishes himself. I would like him in Action Comics rather than with the TT characters. Miss Martian I never liked but could work but I think they already have Raven, so eh. 





> Yeah team books are old and should stop being made....


Ha. Just that TT doesn't work anymore. It's a mess. 

I think Tim also needs to stay away from the dark. It doesn't really suit him that much compared to Jason, Cass and Damian. Dick, Babs and Tim are the lighter of the Batman sidekicks.

----------


## JaggedFel

Oh i wasnt talking about interaction i was just listing them together.

----------


## Aahz

> As for Katana sure she is good but distinctly Japanese. Cass Cain though as Chinese now that is useful and again Katana is not directly connected to Batman compared to Cass.


Cass doesn't really have a nationality (and if she had one it would be most likely American). And at least in the comics Katana was a member of "Batman and the Outsiders" and in "Beware the Batman" she was his sidekick.

And honestly do you think a Batman movie needs diversity to be successful?




> Plus if people Liked Hitgirl, then they will like Damian live action.


Kick Ass has a very different tone from what the Batman movies will likely have. Could you imagine Hitgirl in one of the Nolan movies?

It's not impossible that they bring Damian in, but he will most likely be older (thats was the case with Hitgirl to iirc) and probably a little bit "nerfed".

----------


## JaggedFel

Oh no I expect Batman to sell regardless but I certainly think making a Chinese Batgirl to sell would be good business for a Batman Movie. 

But yeah I expect damian to come in at like a freshman in high school age at the youngest.

----------


## josai21

Honestly I feel like the best possible route for Tim's Character in the cinematic universe is to have him the main focus of Batman's first solo film. Develop the "batman is dangerous without robin" theme and have Tim step forward as the new Robin. Jason has prolly been dead for at least a few years so he could have his own "under the red good movie eventually, but it would be my hope to see Tim as the primary robin. If we are going to get him as Robin, this is prolly the best route.

That said, I'm inclined to believe they will skip Tim and go straight to Damiam or heaven forbid Carrie kellie

----------


## godisawesome

Of the last two Robins, I think Tim seems more like a character suited for the small screen; his assumption of the mantle is more about him slowly coming into it, and his character si built more around long term relationships. Damian would work in TV as well, but wouldn't slot quite as well into the everyday incidents that always dominate characters in TV.

As to incorporating all four boys into a single movie universe, if I was making the DCF movie, I'd make the next movie be about Bruce and Dick coming to the aid of Tim, who was an online resource and friend of Jason before his death, when Tim's being hunted down by Talia's stooges because he's uncovered evidence of Jason's resurrection and Damian's existence. Have Tim be the outsider who becomes more a brother to the other Robins and a bit less a surrogate son to Bruce, with Tim living with both parents and looking to repay the Bats for saving them during an earlier crisis. He figured out who Batman was more because his friendship with Jason gave him enough personal ties to see that two likely suspects for Batman and Nightwing had a falling out right around the time the two heroes did.

So I'm effect, I would make Tim the Macguffin Bruce and Dick have to uncover to move ahead in stopping Leviathan, where Jason would be Damian's tutor in part because he felt he owed Talia for resurrecting him and wants the chance at revenge. It would also give Jason a more personal reason to both help and hurt Tim (former friend who couldn't leave well enough alone and is now trying to stop you from getting revenge) and would set up a more thorough rivalry with Tim (as the interloper with no direct connection to Batman who nonetheless seems more accepted by the overall family.)

And since Tim and his family have to stay underground after being rescued, a Robins film would feature Dick trying to get Damian integrated into the film in Bruce's absence, while Tim gets involved with the fight to try and secure his famil'y safety and peace of mind, learning more fighting skills but definitely being more gadget and tactics heavy. Still able to beat up Dmaian just because Damian's a ten-year old and Tim has some basic fighting skills and a warrior's mind.

----------


## The Conductor

Bit of a crosspost but! I'd love to see Tim either get his own book or a team up book with the new Azrael. They seemed to have a very short, budding bromance and it's a nice contrast when compared to their relationship in the original DCU. 

Alternatively, I'd like to see him join the Outlaws (Or whatever Roy and Jase are calling their team now) and act as more of a moral compass for the team.

----------


## Herowatcher

> Quote Originally Posted by StaticShock99 View Post 
> 
> Hopefully "Rebirth" restores Tim's history as Robin. DC needs to get it together.
> 			
> 		
> 
> *Was just about to say this. Get it done DC*


Hopefully Rebirth will give us a 13-14 year old Tim Drake as Robin (and an 18-19 year old Dick as Nightwing).
*
Miss this...*

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I'm really worried for Tim, Rebirth seems to become more Damian centric than ever and that isn't a good news for Drake.
Tim N52 version is horrible and changes are desired, only hope we don't get out of the frying pan into the fire.

----------


## RoyImpulse

> I'm really worried for Tim, Rebirth seems to become more Damian centric than ever and that isn't a good news for Drake.
> Tim N52 version is horrible and changes are desired, only hope we don't get out of the frying pan into the fire.


I worry about this, too. The rumors make me think Tim is about to be MIA for a while.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Hopefully Rebirth will give us a 13-14 year old Tim Drake as Robin (and an 18-19 year old Dick as Nightwing).
> *
> Miss this...*


This is never ever going to happen.

I think our best case scenario is 16-18 Tim as he was towards the end of Red Robin. Emancipated minor who worked with Batman for a while but went off to do his own thing, and has a friendly relationship with the YJ4.

----------


## godisawesome

So, no Red Robin book, but we do have Batman Beyond (ugh! If it's Tim in the suit) and Teen Titans. Anybody see another place for him in Rebirth?

----------


## KrustyKid

> So, no Red Robin book, but we do have Batman Beyond (ugh! If it's Tim in the suit) and Teen Titans. Anybody see another place for him in Rebirth?


From the sounds of it Damian will be in Teen Titans, and if Terry is Batman Beyond again there's always the chance Drake gets wiped out of existence all together. The only other possible place he could show up in is Red Hood and the Outlaws. But Tim doesn't take me as an Outlaw so... yea, things are looking grim for him.

----------


## RoyImpulse

> From the sounds of it Damian will be in Teen Titans, and if Terry is Batman Beyond again there's always the chance Drake gets wiped out of existence all together. The only other possible place he could show up in is Red Hood and the Outlaws. But Tim doesn't take me as an Outlaw so... yea, things are looking grim for him.


I agree. I think Damian will be in the the Teen Titans and Terry will go back to Beyond.

There is no Robin series announced either, fwiw. Tim may be low profile for a while, unfortunately.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Great, just great. Just when we're starting to get a Tim I can sort of get behind he may be gone. I would say, if they're smart they'll do the Robins as thus: 

Dick: 23 to 24. Grayson has enough backing that he doesn't need a lot of it and he's got enough on his plate to keep him going. 
Jason: 21 to 19. Jason has a different flavor to the other Bat characters, I think on his own he handles himself well so, keeping him around this age can work. 
Tim: 17 to 15. Freshman in high school would be a good plan here. Have him sort of take on the role Dick took on for him with Damian, bring back his tech skills and have him become a partner that works with Babs some of the time. 
Damian: 11 to 10. Age is fine for him, do a rivally/friendship with Tim in regard to how he looks at him. I think that would work rather well here. Maybe have him work with Tim and Steph to temper that edge of his. 

One thing I loved about Tim is that like Miles and Kamala and Sam and other young heroes he saw both the responsibility of it as well as the fun of it. I think having a book with both him and Damian and Steph could work as the humor there would work and each arc can focus on one of them as the lead with the other two working as sidekicks for that story arc.

----------


## btmarine23

> Great, just great. Just when we're starting to get a Tim I can sort of get behind he may be gone. I would say, if they're smart they'll do the Robins as thus: 
> 
> Dick: 23 to 24. Grayson has enough backing that he doesn't need a lot of it and he's got enough on his plate to keep him going. 
> Jason: 21 to 19. Jason has a different flavor to the other Bat characters, I think on his own he handles himself well so, keeping him around this age can work. 
> Tim: 17 to 15. Freshman in high school would be a good plan here. Have him sort of take on the role Dick took on for him with Damian, bring back his tech skills and have him become a partner that works with Babs some of the time. 
> Damian: 11 to 10. Age is fine for him, do a rivally/friendship with Tim in regard to how he looks at him. I think that would work rather well here. Maybe have him work with Tim and Steph to temper that edge of his. 
> 
> One thing I loved about Tim is that like Miles and Kamala and Sam and other young heroes he saw both the responsibility of it as well as the fun of it. I think having a book with both him and Damian and Steph could work as the humor there would work and each arc can focus on one of them as the lead with the other two working as sidekicks for that story arc.


 I would love to see Tim in a great book with strong Bat family ties.

----------


## The Whovian

> Great, just great. Just when we're starting to get a Tim I can sort of get behind he may be gone. I would say, if they're smart they'll do the Robins as thus: 
> 
> Dick: 23 to 24. Grayson has enough backing that he doesn't need a lot of it and he's got enough on his plate to keep him going. 
> Jason: 21 to 19. Jason has a different flavor to the other Bat characters, I think on his own he handles himself well so, keeping him around this age can work. 
> Tim: 17 to 15. Freshman in high school would be a good plan here. Have him sort of take on the role Dick took on for him with Damian, bring back his tech skills and have him become a partner that works with Babs some of the time. 
> Damian: 11 to 10. Age is fine for him, do a rivally/friendship with Tim in regard to how he looks at him. I think that would work rather well here. Maybe have him work with Tim and Steph to temper that edge of his. 
> 
> One thing I loved about Tim is that like Miles and Kamala and Sam and other young heroes he saw both the responsibility of it as well as the fun of it. I think having a book with both him and Damian and Steph could work as the humor there would work and each arc can focus on one of them as the lead with the other two working as sidekicks for that story arc.


I would go with them like this:
Dick: 24
Jason: 21
Tim: 16
Damian:11

----------


## Kurtzberg

> Tim: 17 to 15. Freshman in high school would be a good plan here. Have him sort of take on the role Dick took on for him with Damian, bring back his tech skills and have him become a partner that works with Babs some of the time. 
> Damian: 11 to 10. Age is fine for him, do a rivally/friendship with Tim in regard to how he looks at him. I think that would work rather well here. Maybe have him work with Tim and Steph to temper that edge of his. 
> 
> One thing I loved about Tim is that like Miles and Kamala and Sam and other young heroes he saw both the responsibility of it as well as the fun of it. I think having a book with both him and Damian and Steph could work as the humor there would work and each arc can focus on one of them as the lead with the other two working as sidekicks for that story arc.


I like that Damian and Tim actually hate each other, it's interesting, and there is an authenticity to it as well. Too often groups of characters in fiction all just seemingly, inexplicably all get along and grow to become friends/family. Often in real life, there's that person at work you just hate and will never get along with, doesn't mean the work doesn't get done. I don't want Tim trying to mentor Damian, or them teaming up all the time, I'm perfectly fine with them forever hating each other's guts until they are both old and gray.

----------


## ProdSlash

> From the sounds of it Damian will be in Teen Titans, and if Terry is Batman Beyond again there's always the chance Drake gets wiped out of existence all together. The only other possible place he could show up in is Red Hood and the Outlaws. But Tim doesn't take me as an Outlaw so... yea, things are looking grim for him.


Looks like DC finally accomplished the goal of removing Tim Drake.  All the vestiges and legacies of Chuck Dixon are gone.

----------


## Aahz

> I would go with them like this:
> Dick: 24
> Jason: 21
> Tim: 16
> Damian:11


The official version seems to be at the monent:
Dick: 21
Jason: something in between Tim and Dick
Tim: 16
Damian:10

Personally I would go with:
Dick: 21
Jason: 18
Tim: 17
Damian:10

A big age gap between Tim and Jason doesn't makes much sense, Jason wasn't robin very long, and they are anyway always thrown together as the middle children.
And having much more than one year difference between them hardly makes sense in any continuity.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Yeah one thing that's really useful between Tim and damian is the fact that they can be civil but they don't really like one another, they care about one another but don't see eye to eye. It makes for an interesting situation. I really hope they do something to bring Tim and the other characters back.

----------


## btmarine23

> Great, just great. Just when we're starting to get a Tim I can sort of get behind he may be gone. I would say, if they're smart they'll do the Robins as thus: 
> 
> Dick: 23 to 24. Grayson has enough backing that he doesn't need a lot of it and he's got enough on his plate to keep him going. 
> Jason: 21 to 19. Jason has a different flavor to the other Bat characters, I think on his own he handles himself well so, keeping him around this age can work. 
> Tim: 17 to 15. Freshman in high school would be a good plan here. Have him sort of take on the role Dick took on for him with Damian, bring back his tech skills and have him become a partner that works with Babs some of the time. 
> Damian: 11 to 10. Age is fine for him, do a rivally/friendship with Tim in regard to how he looks at him. I think that would work rather well here. Maybe have him work with Tim and Steph to temper that edge of his. 
> 
> One thing I loved about Tim is that like Miles and Kamala and Sam and other young heroes he saw both the responsibility of it as well as the fun of it. I think having a book with both him and Damian and Steph could work as the humor there would work and each arc can focus on one of them as the lead with the other two working as sidekicks for that story arc.


 Sometimes I really feel like Tim and Damian need a steady...constant father and should be with Batman/family.  They will never do it, but Tim, Damian and Batman would resonate with me.  But I really like what you said about Tim..I agree he is such a great character.

----------


## Aioros22

> A big age gap between Tim and Jason doesn't makes much sense, Jason wasn't robin very long, and they are anyway always thrown together as the middle children.
> And having much more than one year difference between them hardly makes sense in any continuity.


Jason and Tim clearly had more than a year gap in between even in the old continuity.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm in agreement with the majority as it pertains to Tim and Damian's relationship. I like the fact they don't always see eye to eye, but at the same time.. deep down there might be a respect somewhere. It adds a lot of layers to their relationship. And above all it is different than any other relationship within the bat family.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason and Tim clearly had more than a year gap in between even in the old continuity.


They had a 2 year gap, and even that is hard to justify, if you go by the original comics or even the official timelines (in some cases you end even up with Jason being the same age or younger than Tim). And keep in mind that without Death in the Family and Tims creation,  Jason would have been the Robin of the young justice generation.

A 5 year gap like  Dark Knight1047 suggest, is really hard to realize if you don't let Jason start as Robin at a quite old age, which is hatrdly in ,line with the comics and would take out a lot of the impact of his death.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm curious as to why some people hate the 'Red Robin' code-name. Outside of the obvious Red Robin restaurant chain, is there any other reasons why you don't like the name? Or is it not the name per say, but rather Tim moving on from the Robin name altogether? I mean you have Batman, Batwing, Batwoman, and Batgirl. And on the flip side it's just Robin and Red Robin. I don't see why there is so much hate for the name. Though I will say when he took up the name originally Pre-New52 he should have called himself something else since his intent was to distance himself from the Batman legacy and Robin name. Given that all variations of his Red Robin suit have had the x strap across his chest he could have called himself Red X instead. Or even Bird X(to keep the bird theme in his name).

Just want to hear your thoughts.

----------


## godisawesome

I think part of the problem people have with the Red Robin code name is that it only adds a modifying adjective to the old codename; it doesn't seem like enough of a name upgrade.

Though the New 52 reason you gave is actually a pretty good criticism to the context of that name origin. Adding "Red" to the codename makes sense when it heralds some kind of change to the character; Chris Yost played the identity change as being a sign that Tim was making moves beyond his past, and FabNic carried that idea. The New 52 origin tried to play it as some radical step apart, when the modifier does nothing to make the identity different, especially when Tim's first costume is still just a regular Robin suit. Therefore, in the New 52, trying to make Red Robin Tim's only codename feels like pointless semantics that really only serve to make his stint as Robin have an asterisk next to it.

I will recommend the best handling of the name change I've seen came from a fan-based production: Young Justice Abridged. They're a very well done abridged series, but they made a few major changes for their fan-version, especially in making the cartoon's Robin in Season 1 Tim, and their handling of his transition actually has some poignant reasoning behind it. They blended in Under the Red Hood to Young Justice, and had their (usually hilariously over the top) Jason send Tim a voice mail before his final showdown with Bruce, where Jason kind of confessed that while he felt anger towards Tim for replacing him, wanted to hurt him, but came to actually respect Tim from afar and gave him an endorsement as a good kid and a good Robin. They then had Tim replay the message over and over again, and decide to change his moniker in memory of the apparently dead Red Hood.

In other words, a bunch of fan boys having a good time poking fun at a great cartoon had a better handle of the moniker than Scott Lobdell. And no one should be surprised at this.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Tim in Detective Comics with his old Robin costume, now i'm excited!

----------


## Kurtzberg

> Tim in Detective Comics with his old Robin costume, now i'm excited!


Not quite his old costume, got the RR on the chest, so it's a Red Robin costume that looks like a more traditional Robin costume.

----------


## godisawesome

If he's Red Robin, I'd prefer he wear a cowled costume like Pre-Flashpoint...


But I'm willing to forgo that for a book that features him in an update of his best Robin suit, paired with Cass and Steph! Hell yeah! I've got something to buy regularly again! He's back under Bat-editorial control!

Now I'm really curious how much this seemingly-very-retro look for Tim is going to tie into a harkening back towards his old book style writing. I presume we can expect our lowest expectations to be Tim written as he is in Eternal; better than anything in Teen Totans, but still kind of shallow over all. But Tynion sure talks a good talk about his fandom for Tim's old series. I'm thinking we might see more of the Drake parents, and I hope we get some good old fashioned, Tim Drake is awkward around girls shenanigans!

----------


## Vinsanity

So basically DetectiveComics only and they are Probs going to pair him up with Steph....

Well it is a bummer for me but guess a lot of fans will like what they are doing with Tim.

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, dude, don't take this the wrong way, but I'd be glad if they buried the Tim-Cass relationship and never dug it up again. I didn't like it before Flashpoint, and the rapey-undertones that Scott Lobdell gave it with a subpar Cassie and Tim killed any ghost of an interest I would have had in it.

And I'm very glad to see Tim far away from Teen Titans; the book only ever benefitted him when Geoff Johns wrote it.

----------


## scottsummer

Please let Tim be the spotlight in detective comics, btw I am not all over his throwbackish costume.

----------


## Godlike13

I know this is an appreciation thread, and that im not the biggest Tim guy, but i have to say this. Tim's new costume is awful, its a Robin costume, and it makes Tim look kind of pathetic. Like he's trying to desperately cling on to his time as Robin. Which to me is not a good look for Tim, and is just super uncreative.

----------


## Harpsikord

You saying that about that costume probably isn't going to get very far; it's very evocative of his classic Robin suit.

----------


## Godlike13

Clearly its evocative of his classic Robin suit, but what does the make Red Robin. It make it look like Tim is trying to still be Robin but with an extra "R". I find that incredibly sad. Ive said this before, but Tim needs them to be creative with him. This is not creative. They are pretty much just putting him back in his old Robin costume. This lack of creativity with Tim is part of what is kiling him IMO.

----------


## godisawesome

Judging from Damian's new design, I think they may be trying to effectively have both Damian and Tim play as two sides of Robin: Tim will play the more traditional type in Detective Comics, possibly with the more mundane family life and teenage issues that made his solo work, while Damian plays the more fantastical side to the hilt.

Like I said, I'd prefer the cowled look, but going with an update of the Neal Adams design is fine if your Tim Drake is going back to his roots. At the least, it's better to look like the first modern Robin again and not like a busy, pallet swap of Nightwing's disco suit.

Plus, the stupid wings are gone and the bo staff is back! That means a 90% less chance of having Tim try and attack guys with his crotch on covers now!

----------


## godisawesome

> Clearly its evocative of his classic Robin suit, but what does the make Red Robin. It make it look like Tim is trying to still be Robin but with an extra "R". I find that incredibly sad. Ive said this before, but Tim needs them to be creative with him. This is not creative. They are pretty much just putting him back in his old Robin costume. This lack of creativity with Tim is part of what is kiling him IMO.


I kind of agree with the sentiment, but at the same time, I think the New 52 neutered a lot of Tim's stuff to try and hammer him into the Nightwing sized hole they had in Teen Titans. Taking him back to his 1990's aesthetic isn't blazing any new ground, but it may serve to take the character back to what made him work for a while before launching back into new territory. I think it's better for Tim to try and be like his old self than for him to be a poor man's Dick Grayson.

----------


## Godlike13

Fair enough.

----------


## Aioros22

> Judging from Damian's new design, I think they may be trying to effectively have both Damian and Tim play as two sides of Robin: Tim will play the more traditional type in Detective Comics, possibly with the more mundane family life and teenage issues that made his solo work, while Damian plays the more fantastical side to the hilt.


That would be an interesting take. Let`s see how they handle it.

----------


## OWL45

> I kind of agree with the sentiment, but at the same time, I think the New 52 neutered a lot of Tim's stuff to try and hammer him into the Nightwing sized hole they had in Teen Titans. Taking him back to his 1990's aesthetic isn't blazing any new ground, but it may serve to take the character back to what made him work for a while before launching back into new territory. I think it's better for Tim to try and be like his old self than for him to be a poor man's Dick Grayson.


That's how I was looking at it also. The character has lost his way. Going back to basics and going from their may not be the most creative approach but it's the most solid in my opinion.

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim to Detective, couldn't be a better spot for him. Though I will say, the suit needs more red.

----------


## Badou

It is a little strange to keep calling him Red Robin when his costume is mostly green now. If they wanted to go back to a classic Tim Robin costume they really should have gone back to his red one, but I guess at least he is out of the Titans books. So you have to take what you can get.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Tim to Detective, couldn't be a better spot for him. Though I will say, the suit needs more red.


I love the direction, but I agree it makes it seem like he's Robin again. I still think To's update of the RR costume has been the best for him as an independent hero.

----------


## btmarine23

i think he looks great and really looking forward to this book!

----------


## The Whovian

This is probably the best thing that couldn't have happened to Tim. He's back working with Batman in Detective alongside Cass and Steph. I also wish since they're calling him Red Robin that they would have him wear his old RR costume.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah, costume is definitely a nitpick. This is definitely the most excited I've been for Tom since the Yost/Fabian/Yost days

----------


## btmarine23

> Yeah, costume is definitely a nitpick. This is definitely the most excited I've been for Tom since the Yost/Fabian/Yost days


I think this is about best case scenario I/we could have hoped for Tim. I think being in a book with Cass and Steph for me is actually better than I ever could have hoped.  Simply amazing and awesome!

----------


## The Whovian

I also hope that this leads to a romance between Tim and Steph.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Yeah, dude, don't take this the wrong way, but I'd be glad if they buried the Tim-Cass relationship and never dug it up again. I didn't like it before Flashpoint, and the rapey-undertones that Scott Lobdell gave it with a subpar Cassie and Tim killed any ghost of an interest I would have had in it.
> 
> .


That's fine. People like different things. 

The costume is kind of sucky though because it's like you're RR but you have a lot of green and yellow. Plus I never liked him with Steph because Steph always irked me.

----------


## Super-Cyke

I'd prefer a new costume that looked more like the predominantly red one he had shortly before becoming RR, but it IS nice seeing Tim in a costume similar to his classic Robin look.  I'm excited they seem to have him paired with Bruce.  I know Damian is popular but it felt like Bruce and Tim's relationship became distanced with Damian's introduction (and the New 52 relaunch) and never quite got back to where it should be




> Yeah, dude, don't take this the wrong way, but I'd be glad if they buried the Tim-Cass relationship and never dug it up again. I didn't like it before Flashpoint, and the rapey-undertones that Scott Lobdell gave it with a subpar Cassie and Tim killed any ghost of an interest I would have had in it.
> 
> And I'm very glad to see Tim far away from Teen Titans; the book only ever benefitted him when Geoff Johns wrote it.



I stopped reading New 52 Titans but heard something about a possessed Drake and losing his virginity.  Did Drake sleep with Cassie and was it kind of rape-y?

----------


## Aahz

Hving him Back in Gotham and giving him finally some time with Batman, is my opinion the right choise. But I'm not sure Tynion is the right writer.




> I stopped reading New 52 Titans but heard something about a possessed Drake and losing his virginity.  Did Drake sleep with Cassie and was it kind of rape-y?


Imo it is kind of ambiguous what happened. All we saw in that issue was this

And in one of the next issues it was said that they "hooked up", which afaik doesn't necessary mean that they had sex.

Btw. am I the only one who thinks that Tim looks more like the classic golden/silver age Dick than like him self in that scan?

----------


## Super-Cyke

^^^^ Thanks for the info

----------


## Doctor Know

Alright! And here I was worried Tim was going to be completely MIA, like the rest of his Titan's team.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Hving him Back in Gotham and giving him finally some time with Batman, is my opinion the right choise. But I'm not sure Tynion is the right writer.
> 
> Imo it is kind of ambiguous what happened. All we saw in that issue was this
> 
> And in one of the next issues it was said that they "hooked up", which afaik doesn't necessary mean that they had sex.
> 
> Btw. am I the only one who thinks that Tim looks more like the classic golden/silver age Dick than like him self in that scan?


Hooked up kind of generally means done the deed at least these days and yes I agree with the look. It does look like a younger Dick Grayson





I personally like the couple because it's different. I never liked Steph personally. But I can see why people were put off by the pairing with that one issue that seemed a little icky. However from the start you can see that Tim always had a crush on Cassie and vice versa.

Kind of bummed out about Bunker being nowhere now more than anything.

----------


## godisawesome

> Hving him Back in Gotham and giving him finally some time with Batman, is my opinion the right choise. But I'm not sure Tynion is the right writer.
> 
> Imo it is kind of ambiguous what happened. All we saw in that issue was this
> 
> And in one of the next issues it was said that they "hooked up", which afaik doesn't necessary mean that they had sex.
> 
> Btw. am I the only one who thinks that Tim looks more like the classic golden/silver age Dick than like him self in that scan?


There's a few other elements here as well; this same issue features Tim making out with Solstice right before this sequence, features Tim having un-Tim-like malevolent thoughts, and ending the issue with an Eddy Barrows-drawn evil smile and blank eyes, highly suggestive of something going wrong. Then a later issue in the same, mindlessly bloated arc has Trigon reveal that he was "influencing" Tim's mind, explicitly calling out this issue as showing him doing so.

...which, by legal definition, does make this a sexually exploitive manipulation of two minors, and depending on your interpretation of how much influence was exerted by Trigon, also rape on both Tim and Cassie.

All for what is at best a painfully contrived and inorganic "sexy" escapade to Lobdell's pairing of Tim and Cassie. One that depended on writing Tim like a pale imitation of Dick Grayson, without any sign of his classic geeky awkwardness, and Cassie as a archetypal "bad-girl," one written counter to her original endearing desire to be a hero and maturation into team leader. Which somehow manages to make their Pre-Flashpoint dating out of mutual angst about Conner's death seem like a mature depiction.

So yeah, I really don't like that pairing.

----------


## Jadeb

Yeah, same here. I wouldn't mind the pairing in theory, but now it just seems creepy.

I like the new costume, but the double R seems awkward. Wonder why they didn't use the Red Robin emblem in its place.

----------


## KrustyKid

Good interview. We gotta little insight on what Tim's role will be in Detective. Looking forward to it.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/videos...r-d/2300-3134/

----------


## The Lucky One

Not to derail from the 'Tec talk, but has anyone been getting the recent TPBs of Tim's early adventures as Robin? Thus far they've mostly duplicated already-existing (though OOP) trades, but with the third and especially fourth volumes they should start getting into uncollected territory.

I _am_ curious about the contents for volume 3, "Solo." It's listed in solicits as Robin #1-6 and annuals 1-2, but that's probably not complete... issue 6 was the middle part of a crossover with Showcase '94 #5-6, so presumably those stories will be included too. That adds up to roughly 11 issues (assuming the annuals are double-sized, and that the Huntress/Robin segments of Showcase '94 5-6 add up to one full issue), which mostly lines up with "Reborn" (12 issues) and "Triumphant" (14 issues). They could throw in 'Tec #668, as the first part of the Azbats cliffhanger that concludes in Robin #1... problem with that issue is, it starts with a different, unrelated cliffhanger, and Tim isn't in it much. So I kind of doubt it makes the cut.

In an ideal world, I'd love to see it include Showcase '93 #1-6 & 11-12, the Catwoman/Robin/Nightwing story, AKA Tim and Dick's first team-up. But realistically, I don't think it will -- that's a pretty obscure story, Tim doesn't appear until issue 3, and it's probably too many issues (even if the stories are only half-issue length).

Arguably the best issues to pad it out a bit would be 'Tec #647-49, Spoiler's first appearance. Tim's in it a decent amount, and "Solo" will be collecting Steph's second storyline (Robin #3-5), so why not include the first? I don't think it's likely, but it would probably be the best option to pad the volume out.

Any other suggestions/wish lists?

----------


## godisawesome

I've been supplying my classroom with the old and cheap collection I can get my hands on, but I like the idea of having the Spoiler premier in the collection.

That video interview said that Tim's job would be as deputy commander under the older two, which sounds very much like his 1990's portrayal. I do hope they emphaisized his awkward and sometimes more babysitting leadership style from the time period as well. It so easy to see Tim as the beleaguered nerd trying to juggle too-spunky-for-her-own-good Spoiler and exceedingly dangerous but quiet Cass while trying to properly integrate Clayface.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I've been supplying my classroom with the old and cheap collection I can get my hands on, but I like the idea of having the Spoiler premier in the collection.
> 
> That video interview said that Tim's job would be as deputy commander under the older two, which sounds very much like his 1990's portrayal. I do hope they emphaisized his awkward and sometimes more babysitting leadership style from the time period as well. It so easy to see Tim as the beleaguered nerd trying to juggle too-spunky-for-her-own-good Spoiler and exceedingly dangerous but quiet Cass while trying to properly integrate Clayface.


Yeah I can imagine lots of comedy from this. There is a very real chance that between the 3 clayface will be the most receptive to leadership.

Looking forward to Tim putting on the batman voice and Steph just thinking he's adorable.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I know a lot have been not too keen on the costume change to a robin color scheme, but I think it makes tim stand out as distinctive as well as the fact that if he's playing number two to Bruce and Kathy, I think the robin colors show that he's probably trying to prove himself again in a different way. The Red Robin colors came after Damian took the whole robin thing from him, I think this is his way of telling Bruce he's on his side and is going to help him with this. In a way I think it's a sweet nod to Tim's fans as well as showing that Tim still respects the role that Robin plays in Batman's world, keeping him grounded. I'm actually liking this costume a lot.

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## KrustyKid

> I know a lot have been not too keen on the costume change to a robin color scheme, but I think it makes tim stand out as distinctive as well as the fact that if he's playing number two to Bruce and Kathy, I think the robin colors show that he's probably trying to prove himself again in a different way. The Red Robin colors came after Damian took the whole robin thing from him, I think this is his way of telling Bruce he's on his side and is going to help him with this. In a way I think it's a sweet nod to Tim's fans as well as showing that Tim still respects the role that Robin plays in Batman's world, keeping him grounded. I'm actually liking this costume a lot.


That's a really interesting way of looking at it. I didn't think about it like that.

----------


## scary harpy

> I know a lot have been not too keen on the costume change to a robin color scheme, but I think it makes tim stand out as distinctive as well as the fact that if he's playing number two to Bruce and Kathy, I think the robin colors show that he's probably trying to prove himself again in a different way. The Red Robin colors came after Damian took the whole robin thing from him, I think this is his way of telling Bruce he's on his side and is going to help him with this. In a way I think it's a sweet nod to Tim's fans as well as showing that Tim still respects the role that Robin plays in Batman's world, keeping him grounded. I'm actually liking this costume a lot.


I seen only one picture of Tim's new look but I could not help thinking that Norm Breyfogle's 1990 redesigns of Robin's costume looked better than what Tim's wearing now.

----------


## KrustyKid

I don't hate the new look. I'll hold off on final judgement after more shots are available of it. But given that Drake is still going by 'Red Robin' you would have thought the color scheme of his suit would be predominantly red.

----------


## Sardorim

> Hving him Back in Gotham and giving him finally some time with Batman, is my opinion the right choise. But I'm not sure Tynion is the right writer.
> 
> Imo it is kind of ambiguous what happened. All we saw in that issue was this
> 
> And in one of the next issues it was said that they "hooked up", which afaik doesn't necessary mean that they had sex.
> 
> Btw. am I the only one who thinks that Tim looks more like the classic golden/silver age Dick than like him self in that scan?


They had sex, Cassue didn't seem ebarassed about it as Tim is hot to her. He also seemed to be dressed differently after sleeping with her thanks to a demon making him horny.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah I'm just going to ignore that Lobdell TT ever existed.

----------


## KrustyKid

https://twitter.com/AMartinezBueno/s...06639885254656

After seeing that shot Tim's new suit is starting to grow on me.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

What's sort of cool about this is that Tim looks taller and older then Cassandra. Kind of indicates his new role in the book. I really like the way the story is lining up with this. I'm slowly going to probably start collecting DC again if this Rebirth is actually good.

----------


## KrustyKid

> What's sort of cool about this is that Tim looks taller and older then Cassandra. Kind of indicates his new role in the book. I really like the way the story is lining up with this. I'm slowly going to probably start collecting DC again if this Rebirth is actually good.


On top of that Clayface should make for an interesting wild-card

----------


## twincast

re name:

I really liked that DC's future was generally heading into a Kingdom Come-ish direction, but the Red Robin identity and costume really shouldn't have made it into main continuity. If there were several "xyz Robin" characters, it wouldn't really be a problem, but the way it is, it - unlike "Nightwing" - only ever felt like a semi-graduation from the Robin role. That said, both Jason and later Tim had believable reasons to take up the name and suit pre-FP - in Tim's case both the stated reason of it being an already tarnished identity he could go (somewhat) gray with and more importantly the fact that the graduation was forced upon him by (editorial through) Dick before he was ready to let go of being Robin, despite having once said all the time that being Robin was just a temporary job for him.

The post-Flashpoint retcon a couple of issues into the New 52 made it all much, much worse. Someone (probably Lobdell, possibly editorial) obviously had the "fantastic" idea to "solve" the problem of four Robins in five years by making it so that he's only ever been Red Robin (helped by the one flashback image of Tim as Robin they used twice till then having him in his red costume) because somehow adding "Red" before it supposedly shows respect to Jason dying as "Robin"... A) That didn't solve the problem at all, since he still filled the Robin (internship) role in all but name during that time. B) This way he never graduated from his sidekick name in the new continuity, and since he now never was a "real" Robin, dropping the "Red" would actually be an upgrade for him!

re costume:

I agree that the design of someone (disappointingly) named "Red Robin" should be dominated by red (and non-colors; being a Batfamily character, particularly black), but ranking all disguises (I can think of) Tim has worn in main comics continuities:
Rebirth Red Robin - A really nice update of the classic, only marred by the overly busy new RR logo.classic Tim!Robin - It's been the closely adhered to basis for almost all Robin costumes since in all media for good reason.Ünternet Red Robin - Maybe a bit too Nightwing-y, but looks rather great.modified original Red Robin - Marcus To successfully turned something bad into something good.female nurse - Tim's too pretty for his own good.  :Embarrassment: punk gangster - Sexy Alvin Draper is sexy.  :Wink: N.O.W.H.E.R.E. Red Robin - I have a thing for Tron esthetics.  :Stick Out Tongue: New 52 Red Robin with cape - Without the silly strings that already looked awful on Azrael decades before, it really isn't so bad.original Red Robin - At least better than adult Earth-Two!Dick's outfits...New 52 Red Robin with "feathers" - WTF, Scott Lobdell?! Seriously, WTF?! (Brett Booth blogged that he was opposed to the idea.)original Robin - Just say no to bare legs without (near-)invulnerability in combat situations in this day and age.Mister Sarcastic - Yes, the one costume among all these that was deliberately bad is not ranked last.post-Infinite Crisis Robin - Wrongheaded adaptation of DCAU!Tim's costume for no good reason; a true eyesore of bland pyjamas that looks less protective (i.e. armored) than his prior Robin costume as well as NuDick's and NuJason's, to boot. It was never a great costume, but in the DCAU with its very simply shaped characters, it worked fine enough. You can't apply such 1:1 to the semi-realistic styles of most non-kiddie comic books! In these, costumes need more structure/texture than that! Albeit not as much as photorealistic styles and especially live-action need to not look silly. The YJAU, whose art style is only a smidgen less detailed than the average look of Big Two (et al.) books, however, did a great job of adapting the color scheme into a Robin costume for its Tim Drake that would also work well in "normal" comics.

re roster:

My quintessential Gotham (hero populace) will always be the one between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis (more specifically, the status quo just before Steph's stint as Robin), with a very special place in my heart for Robin!Tim, Spoiler!Steph and Batgirl!Cass. (And as such, I'm even more excited about DC having been releasing TPBs of that era's Batfamily books since late 2014.) This book comes about as close to that ideal as it gets; much closer than I thought it would ever come again.

And Tynion said other (presumably mostly teenie trainee) characters will also show up. So, let's see... Duke is apparently still a presence in Batman, Harper just abandoned - at least temporarily - her awful Bluebird persona, Cullen just had his first foray into keyboard superheroics but would feel off without his sister, the larger Robin movement seems dead, and the rest of the We Are Robin main cast should be included either all or none and as such would overwhelm the focus on the classics by their sheer number... I guess cameos by Nightwing, Red Hood, Batgirl and Huntress seem most likely, after all.

----------


## twincast

re setup:

Why all the hate for Tim being deputy leader? What else could he be in a Batfamily team book? (The ship of him training a bunch of amateur Robins has sailed.) Kate being a second team leader seems a bit superfluous (and her being all about teamplay a bit out of character), but we'll see how it plays out. And frankly, I'm just too happy that he's back in Gotham to care about much else.

That said, while him getting emancipated made perfect sense in his last story arc pre-Flashpoint, post-Flashpoint the complete lack of a civilian life hurt the character even more than his severely diminished ties to the Batfamily. In general, (especially teenage) characters in modern Western societies or similar settings should always go to school, have a job and/or at the very least deal with money being tight (and be shown to do so) to ground them in the real world - #3 isn't feasible since he's a Wayne (unless they somehow get rid of that ridiculous half-witted witness protection setup now that his parents' cover has been blown), and #2 isn't really, either, so good old #1 is not only the best but also the only viable option. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to still be 16, maybe 17; I really, really want him to go to high-school again together with Steph (junior? senior?), Cullen (sophomore? junior?) and Harper (senior? Gotham Technical Institute freshman?) - in part to keep an eye on them during the day. (I guess this Cass would be a high-school freshie? But would/should she even realistically go to school like a normal teenager?)

re romance:

Robin made me a fan of Tim/Steph, Young Justice made me a fan of Cassie/Kon, and Teen Titans made me a fan of Tim/Kon. I liked all of Tim's civilian girlfriends, but IMO they could never live up to Steph and her chemistry with him. Similarly, I've never had the slightest thing against Tana Moon and/or her being with Superboy, but I followed Cassie's cute crush on Kon before his solo adventures, so Tana never really had a chance against Cassie in my mind. By the way, the only really enjoyable development during Conner's _totally not Clark 2.0-ish_ prolonged stay in Smallville was the issue showing his and Cassie's reunion. Johns's Teen Titans mostly were "The Tim and (suddenly bulky and joyless) Conner Show", so them pretty much ignoring everyone else slowly made me an (albeit severely annoyed) 'shipper, with Tim obsessively trying to bring Conner back being the definitive watershed moment.

Over the years, real!Tim lost two mothers, two fathers, two ex-girlfriends he still cared about a lot and two of his closest friends - as well as a couple of further Titans he wasn't particularly close with during and after 52 (plus Cass turning into a chatty villain and him losing contact with all his civilian friends) -, most of which happened during a very short time period. I've always despised DC editorial for doing all that to him, but the one good thing about it all was that he took almost none of those losses in stride but instead believably got visibly broken more and more, even more than editorial likely intended to shallowly darken him through personal tragedies - and then brightened up again when most of them came back almost at once (the heartwarming YJ4 group hug following his return to Teen Titans as Red Robin will always be among my absolute favorite panels).

As for Tim/Cassie: Like with Dick/Donna & Bruce/Diana, I neither see the chemistry nor the appeal, but I can understand the latter and wouldn't inherently be opposed to it if handled well. (And for the record, Tim and Cassie randomly starting dating off-screen sometime during Invasion on the Young Justice animated series - despite the Steph cameo, to boot - is not my definition of being handled well; one of the very, very few things I actually disliked about that amazing, far too short-lived product.) The thing is, though, that both pre- and post-Flashpoint it was handled so awfully, noone with even remotely good taste could've liked it, and the respective histories just makes the couple pretty much toxic forever onward in both continuities. In the former, they hooked up out of their shared grief for Conner - some (one-time) sexual healing amongst friends isn't the _worst_ thing you can do if you can deal with subsequent awkwardness, but somehow they decided that this would be a good, healthy basis for a proper relationship... At least that cringefest realistically didn't last long (albeit merely due to a change in writers IIRC). And in the latter, Trigon effectively raped Tim via (a friends with benefits hook-up with) Cassie. ...um, yeah... Admittedly something you _can_ get past since she wasn't aware of the circumstances, but far from the best memory to associate with a prospective significant other.

re Tynion:

Sadly, none of his Big Two work so far has been nearly as good as his creator-owned titles, but he can write, is a huge fan of the cast and has been a major factor in Steph's, Cass's _and_ Tim's reintroduction to Gotham (and non-abysmal characterisation) through the Eternal books, so I have reasonable hope he'll do great as long as he has this little corner of his own. (That said, no matter how very, very likable he comes across, the - most likely; I seriously doubt his father, grandfather and great-grandfather are all still alive - misuse of "IV" annoys me every time I see his (pen) name...)

--------------------

All in all, I'm looking forward to twelve DC books starting this summer/fall (six monthly, six semi-monthly) and anticipating announcements to come for JSA and LSH, and among these, Detective Comics is my clear number one.

----------


## Caivu

> (and her being all about teamplay a bit out of character)


This also has me curious. I think she may have mellowed on that point a bit since every appearance she's had after her book got cancelled involved her teaming up with someone. That could be an in-universe explanation.

----------


## Aahz

> Why all the hate for Tim being deputy leader?


Because imo he (and Jason) should be finally be treated as an equal to Nightwing, and be written as capable hero on his own right (something the new 52 Batfamily cross overs mostly failed to do imo) and not be pushed again in the sidekick role. 

And being second to Batman is one thing, but to Batwoman?

----------


## Caivu

> And being second to Batman is one thing, but to Batwoman?


I think it's just a matter of age, TBH. It'll get explained.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Because imo he (and Jason) should be finally be treated as an equal to Nightwing, and be written as capable hero on his own right (something the new 52 Batfamily cross overs mostly failed to do imo) and not be pushed again in the sidekick role. 
> 
> And being second to Batman is one thing, but to Batwoman?


We'll see how it plays out. If anything I think this direction will help Tim, at least more than TT could(Since he seemed like Grayson 2.0). I feel there could be a lot to build off from here, not just in position but his character.

----------


## Jadeb

I, for one, hope Tim goes back to being a fallible, human teenager and not the smug Mary Sue we've had since the New 52. I don't mind if he's somewhat "demoted" to make that happen.

----------


## twincast

Part of why I feel he really, really needs a civilian life again, preferably attending the same high-school as Steph & co.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I, for one, hope Tim goes back to being a fallible, human teenager and not the smug Mary Sue we've had since the New 52. I don't mind if he's somewhat "demoted" to make that happen.


Tim a Mary Sue in the New-52? Can't say I agree. In TT  nor in the Bat-crossovers has he shown anything that would suggest a superiority over his peers in several departments. Pre-New 52 Tim there'd be an argument. I'd even say Damian, Dick, and Jason have all been more impressive than Drake(New-52 wise) collectively. Though I do agree, Tim needs to return to his roots. Hopefully this will be the beginning of that.

----------


## scary harpy

Are there any really good pictures of Tim's new costume?

I've only seen one on the cover of Detective. Any others?

----------


## twincast

There's a group shot posted on Instagram/Twitter floating around in the various related threads on here.
I'm too tired to look for a link right now and about to hit the sheets, but it should be easy enough to find.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Are there any really good pictures of Tim's new costume?
> 
> I've only seen one on the cover of Detective. Any others?


https://twitter.com/AMartinezBueno/s...06639885254656

----------


## godisawesome

> Tim a Mary Sue in the New-52? Can't say I agree. In TT  nor in the Bat-crossovers has he shown anything that would suggest a superiority over his peers in several departments. Pre-New 52 Tim there'd be an argument. I'd even say Damian, Dick, and Jason have all been more impressive than Drake(New-52 wise) collectively. Though I do agree, Tim needs to return to his roots. Hopefully this will be the beginning of that.


Okay, I don't think New 52 Tim ever counted as a Mary Sue, but as a poorly written character who shared some of the same warning signs of a Mary Sue, I'd say there's plenty of evidence for that. Three of the biggest traits are being over powered (OP), having smart people make stupid and illogical decisions to please the character, and being the center of cliched and horribly written romantic love triangle with questionable moral standards.

TT Tim was OP because of the wings, mostly, which are apparently made of material that isn't traditionally supposed to exist in the DCU until the far future, isn't used by anyone else, and are seemingly capable of stabbing an inter-dimensional demon lord's eyes out, deflecting vehicle assault caliber bullets, but most egregiously, being used in some kind of martial art that allows Tim to somehow get the upper hand in a fist fight with Superboy, and not just any Superboy, but Scott Lobdell's exceptionally powerful TK master Superboy. This Tim was also pretty much never given a fight that really showcased the kind of tactical thinking you'd see in Pre-Flashpoint continuity, and about the only Tim fight in the feathered suit I'd consider accurate would be his fight with Damina, who he did end up manhandling a bit with a bo staff, but got a bloody nose for his trouble.

Smart people making stupid decision to accommodate him comes in with his new origin. Y'know, the one where Batman, almost immediately after losing a Robin, is willing to allow some chowder head who gets his parents in trouble play at crime fighting when the kid was too stupid to cover his tracks from stealing money from the Penguin after being warned off by Batman.

And we all know that the brief and stupid existence of the Cassie-Tim-Solstice triangle went nowhere good.

Having said that, the bulk of these were present in a Titans book that I'm certain Lobdell stopped caring about in any real capacity after a certain point, and when he started hitting an autopilot clearly geared towards writing the TT book as just a bland remake of the classic series with 90's X-Men tropes added in.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Okay, I don't think New 52 Tim ever counted as a Mary Sue, but as a poorly written character who shared some of the same warning signs of a Mary Sue, I'd say there's plenty of evidence for that. Three of the biggest traits are being over powered (OP), having smart people make stupid and illogical decisions to please the character, and being the center of cliched and horribly written romantic love triangle with questionable moral standards.
> 
> TT Tim was OP because of the wings, mostly, which are apparently made of material that isn't traditionally supposed to exist in the DCU until the far future, isn't used by anyone else, and are seemingly capable of stabbing an inter-dimensional demon lord's eyes out, deflecting vehicle assault caliber bullets, but most egregiously, being used in some kind of martial art that allows Tim to somehow get the upper hand in a fist fight with Superboy, and not just any Superboy, but Scott Lobdell's exceptionally powerful TK master Superboy. This Tim was also pretty much never given a fight that really showcased the kind of tactical thinking you'd see in Pre-Flashpoint continuity, and about the only Tim fight in the feathered suit I'd consider accurate would be his fight with Damina, who he did end up manhandling a bit with a bo staff, but got a bloody nose for his trouble.
> 
> Smart people making stupid decision to accommodate him comes in with his new origin. Y'know, the one where Batman, almost immediately after losing a Robin, is willing to allow some chowder head who gets his parents in trouble play at crime fighting when the kid was too stupid to cover his tracks from stealing money from the Penguin after being warned off by Batman.
> 
> And we all know that the brief and stupid existence of the Cassie-Tim-Solstice triangle went nowhere good.
> 
> Having said that, the bulk of these were present in a Titans book that I'm certain Lobdell stopped caring about in any real capacity after a certain point, and when he started hitting an autopilot clearly geared towards writing the TT book as just a bland remake of the classic series with 90's X-Men tropes added in.


Yea, I was never a huge fan of the wings. But in fairness to the Superboy point, Conner wasn't  expecting the blindside attack which is why it even worked. In his own book Superboy was knocked over the head with a pipe by a civilian which sent him to the ground. Basically if his TK field isn't active he's vulnerable. Compared to TT standards I wouldn't say the wings were OP, but with the Bat Fam I'd side with you on that. You're right about that Trigon cut eye scene, when I saw that I was like 'What?!' Perhaps Trigon left him to believe he was gaining the upper-hand?

I do agree with you in regards to Tim, he's suffered from a lot of bad writing in the New-52 along with most of the Titans(Bart and Conner got it worse). Bunker was a bright spot at least. Hopefully this new direction can get him back on track.

----------


## twincast

> https://twitter.com/AMartinezBueno/s...06639885254656


Which reminds me: One (minor) issue I have with the costume which wasn't quite apparent on the cover image is that the cape is far too short; it's got almost all the downsides of wearing a cape while having almost none of the upsides in return.




> I do agree with you in regards to Tim, he's suffered from a lot of bad writing in the New-52 along with most of the Titans(Bart and Conner got it worse). Bunker was a bright spot at least. Hopefully this new direction can get him back on track.


And as I've recently (and particularly in Bart's case, since the Barr-Tor reveal itself) been mentioning here and there on various threads, essentially all of that could be fixed by (DC Rebirth's whole shtick of) recovering true memories and one good arc with proper characterization, but yes, here's hoping.

----------


## KrustyKid

Now when I think about it his new look kind of reminds me of Arkham verse Tim Drake minus the hood and buzz-cut

----------


## twincast

I noticed this sometime yesterday or the day before as well (yet somehow forgot to mention it). Thankfully those two elements as well as a beefier physique and a certain revolting romance choice seem to be missing.

----------


## scary harpy

> Now when I think about it his new look kind of reminds me of Arkham verse Tim Drake minus the hood and buzz-cut


Neither picture that I've seen gives a real good look at Tim's new costume. I'll have to reserve judgment until then.

----------


## godisawesome

The Arkham look is more prevalent in his posing here than anything else.image.jpg

----------


## twincast

Batman: Arkham City
AC Robin trophy.jpg

Batman: Arkham Knight
AK Robin trophy.jpg

DC Rebirth:
Sleek green guard plates over black fabric/boots on shoulders, forearms, back of hands, fingers, and ankles+shins+knees: Other than the shoulders, esentially just like AK's. AC's are similar but matte metal over dark green and far from sleek (and not covering the knees). Classic Tim's has no such design elements (but Rebirth's shoulder guards evokes his green short sleeves like Classic Dick's instead of AC's red short sleeves and AK's red shoulder armor), the armor strips in his sleeves and gauntlets being only remotely similar.Green quadrangles on the outsides of black pants: Similar to AK's red lines on the outsides of black pants. AC's pants are fully black, Classic Tim's fully green.Short cape: Those things fluctuate depending on the scene, anyway, but to me its "standard" length evokes neither Classic Tim nor AK's but AC's. All four designs are, of course, black on the outside and yellow on the inside.Yellow-bordered high collar on said cape: Almost exactly like Classic Tim's. AC's and AK's have black hoods instead."Nightwing-shaped" black domino mask: Similar to AC's and AK's black ones. Classic Tim's is green and traditionally round in shape.Diagonal stripes on waist of torso armor: Only AC's has similar ones. All four armors are red with a stylish R/RR on the left chest. (Well, Rebirth's RR seems to be slightly less stylish than the others' R but still more so than Classic Dick's.) Classic Tim's has yellow laces on the center of his chest like Classic Dick's and uniquely extends to cover the crotch. AK's has multiple small but notable differences and is apparently worn over a (reasonably thick) long-sleeved black shirt.Yellow belt with pouches and a round buckle: Much like AC's and AK's (although the latter's belt buckle is much more angular). Classic Tim's belt had sleeker but less useful tubular capsules instead of pouches.Belt, cape and mask also resemble OYL Tim's - in fact, other than the latter's cape's (long, scalloped) lower half, probably more so than they do any other of the above's. (Obviously, the red chest and its - far less stylish - R are also similar; the rest, thank goodness, is not.)Finally, physique and haircut as shown are a well-drawn New Earth!Tim's (from before letting it grow longer) and thankfully not at all like Arkhamverse!Tim's.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

The only thing about the picture that's bugging me is that Tim and Damian are known for their shorter stature. Tim's supposed to be shorter then Cassie or Conner (Kon) and you have him standing taller then Steph, who he's supposed to be the same height as, Cassandra being a bit shorter. I like the idea of cleaning the palette by bringing him back to second in command, it's really not a demotion since he's working with two very highly trained older adults. Like Twincast said, he needs to be shown to have that civilian side as that's part of the thing that made him a unique robin. Dick was the showman, he was the "natural born leader" type, but has trouble balancing this life with the civilian life. Jason is the wild card who prefers being in the role of the "hero" or anti hero depending on how you view it, and seems to prefer being more involved with the Bat life then the others. Has anyone seen him play up living a normal life? Damian is a lot like his dad and because of his upbringing earlier he doesn't quiet know how to deal with being a normal kid most of the time. Tim on the other hand was the one that seemed to get the idea of balance and, like Dick, knew when to step away from things for a bit. Which is something they need to bring back.

If Bruce and Kate are the more determined of the two and are trying to get the new group to understand the role of protecting the city, then Tim's job is to show them how to lead a normal existance and that it's okay to walk away from being a hero if you really need to. I hope they bring that aspect of him back into play because that was the best part of Tim, knowing where to draw the line on doing the "Work" and to play. He lost some of that after bruce vanished for a while, let's hope that we get some of that Tim back and soon.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick was the showman, he was the "natural born leader" type, but has trouble balancing this life with the civilian life.


Not really, in the old comics from his time as Robin, he had like Tim a normal live as high school/collage student.
Just didn't had parents (maybe you could count Aunt Harriet) and they never really fleshed out his fellow students (or more pressingly most didn't appear in more than one story).




> Jason is the wild card who prefers being in the role of the "hero" or anti hero depending on how you view it, and seems to prefer being more involved with the Bat life then the others.


Jason was allways kind of an outsider at school. Pre crisis he had a girl friend for one story arc, and even stoped beeing Robin for a while (since Bruce was anyway working with Catwoman at this time), post crisis it was said that he was to busy with studying and training and didn't really had civilian friends, and the new 52 version is anyway not a very social guy and said to be a loner (at least in Lobdells version).

----------


## twincast

> The only thing about the picture that's bugging me is that Tim and Damian are known for their shorter stature. Tim's supposed to be shorter then Cassie or Conner (Kon) and you have him standing taller then Steph, who he's supposed to be the same height as, Cassandra being a bit shorter.


I'm a shorter dude myself (round about what Bart's supposed to be), so believe me, everyone (particularly in U.S. superhero comics) supposed to be even remotely my size (which is already more than rare enough) getting visually retconned into a "heroic" height all the time (especially common when a teenage character reaches (legal) adulthood) annoys the hell out of me.

For the record, the average adult human male is 69-70 in. and the average adult human female 63-64 in. - both globally and in the melting pot that is the U.S. of A.; as a matter of fact, it's probably what I was most self-conscious about in my teenage years in a country of AFAIK an even slightly higher average than this before my prolonged stay in Japan which also has some rather tall people but in which I finally felt no longer like a freak outside my immediate family.

Long story short, Tim's and Kate's heights in that group shot should really be flipped, but I'm too happy to _finally_ see him looking good again, to care too much as long as he doesn't start resembling (this or any other canonical/common depiction of) Bruce.




> I like the idea of cleaning the palette by bringing him back to second in command, it's really not a demotion since he's working with two very highly trained older adults.


Yep.




> If Bruce and Kate are the more determined of the two and are trying to get the new group to understand the role of protecting the city, then Tim's job is to show them how to lead a normal existance and that it's okay to walk away from being a hero if you really need to. I hope they bring that aspect of him back into play because that was the best part of Tim, knowing where to draw the line on doing the "Work" and to play. He lost some of that after bruce vanished for a while, let's hope that we get some of that Tim back and soon.


Well, he first lost that when they foolishly killed off Jack, but yeah, he had _just_ regained a normal civilian life when Bruce's temporal displacement made him drop all that for a while yet again.

----------


## Vinsanity

> The only thing about the picture that's bugging me is that Tim and Damian are known for their shorter stature. Tim's supposed to be shorter then Cassie or Conner (Kon) and you have him standing taller then Steph, who he's supposed to be the same height as, Cassandra being a bit shorter. I like the idea of cleaning the palette by bringing him back to second in command, it's really not a demotion since he's working with two very highly trained older adults. Like Twincast said, he needs to be shown to have that civilian side as that's part of the thing that made him a unique robin. Dick was the showman, he was the "natural born leader" type, but has trouble balancing this life with the civilian life. Jason is the wild card who prefers being in the role of the "hero" or anti hero depending on how you view it, and seems to prefer being more involved with the Bat life then the others. Has anyone seen him play up living a normal life? Damian is a lot like his dad and because of his upbringing earlier he doesn't quiet know how to deal with being a normal kid most of the time. Tim on the other hand was the one that seemed to get the idea of balance and, like Dick, knew when to step away from things for a bit. Which is something they need to bring back.



Eh, people are getting taller by the year. Tim being taller than Dick makes sense to me. Tim being short doesn't.

----------


## Vinsanity

Tim's new costume reminds me of Batman Forever's Robin.

----------


## twincast

> Eh, people are getting taller by the year. Tim being taller than Dick makes sense to me. Tim being short doesn't.


There's so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin...

----------


## Vinsanity

> There's so much wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin...


Find a spot.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> The Arkham look is more prevalent in his posing here than anything else.Attachment 34394


this looks good to me, the only problem is he green, it doesnt differentiate enough from Damian

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> this looks good to me, the only problem is he green, it doesnt differentiate enough from Damian


Yeah, needs more red.

----------


## Herowatcher

It doesn't look as if Tim can even lift his arms with those 
shoulder pads in his rebirth look. It's not the greatest, but 
better than his New52.

Ah, the good old days.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I love that look and the nostalgia it brings, but I still want Tim moving forward while respecting his past.

I felt the Marcus To modified RR look best fit that.

----------


## godisawesome

The Pre-Flashpoint Tim was in a pretty good place, all things considered. Yeah, a lot of the 90's tenants of the character had been killed off over the years, but Chris Yost and Fabian Nicieza showed that they would constructively use that to write good stories and still kind of tried to build Tim's world with some more mundane accoutrements. The feeling was a bit like Tim's book had emerged from a comparative dark age (you don't hear a lot of high praise for the time period Post-Dixon where he was losing everyone) and was building Tim up into a nice place with a good costume, decent mission statement, great creative team, and character who was evolving from his previous forms....

But all that was contingent on his past being what it was and his character being written correctly with one foot still in the real world. The New 52 took Nicieza's depiction of a somewhat traumatized young man who experienced lapses of hubris and made him an arrogant twerp, refused to contrast anything about him with the mundane world he used to inhabit, and seemed dead set on trying to make Tim Nightwing-Lite.

I still feel that there's strength to this new direction in Detective Comics, but I'd be lying if I said I thought that the character is better off here than he would be if FabNic and Marcus To just got to keep his RR solo going.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Agreed. My idea Tim would be the direction from Yost/Nic/To era:

Tim as an established driven intelligent superhero
Friends with the TT but not necessarily a regular member, friends with the batfam
overall positive direction, sense of hope at what he can achieve, not tragedy

with some aspects from the dixon days, which would just be some connection to his past (I'd like to see Ives as his friend again, someone who knows his secret but is still a "normal") and his parents back.

----------


## twincast

> Find a spot.


A) That's a general trend, not an absolute one.
B) This primarily shows itself from generation to generation (due to C and D); Dick and Tim are only a few years apart.
C) It's (barring a sudden explosion - or implosion - of available nutrients) much, much more gradual a development than your statement makes it sound.
D) As far as the (again, general) trend of natural selection emphasizing tallness goes: Gene combinations and mutations are random; even two perfectly healthy full siblings of the same biological sex can differ rather wildly in height, with either of the two being taller. And Dick and Tim aren't even related at all, i.e. Dick most likely had taller parents than Tim to begin with, so canonical Tim would have a hard time surpassing him in height on this basis alone.
E) Basically, you're being heightist, saying smaller people are "unbelievable", i.e. they can not and shall not exist.




> The Pre-Flashpoint Tim was in a pretty good place, all things considered. Yeah, a lot of the 90's tenants of the character had been killed off over the years, but Chris Yost and Fabian Nicieza showed that they would constructively use that to write good stories and still kind of tried to build Tim's world with some more mundane accoutrements. The feeling was a bit like Tim's book had emerged from a comparative dark age (you don't hear a lot of high praise for the time period Post-Dixon where he was losing everyone) and was building Tim up into a nice place with a good costume, decent mission statement, great creative team, and character who was evolving from his previous forms....
> 
> But all that was contingent on his past being what it was and his character being written correctly with one foot still in the real world. The New 52 took Nicieza's depiction of a somewhat traumatized young man who experienced lapses of hubris and made him an arrogant twerp, refused to contrast anything about him with the mundane world he used to inhabit, and seemed dead set on trying to make Tim Nightwing-Lite.
> 
> I still feel that there's strength to this new direction in Detective Comics, but I'd be lying if I said I thought that the character is better off here than he would be if FabNic and Marcus To just got to keep his RR solo going.


Well, that's all true, but after what they did to him after Flashpoint, he needs to be rebuilt, and doing this in a setup very reminiscent of the era he worked best in seems to me to be the best way to do it.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I wonder if they're going to throw away any of the past things in the Teen Titans stories that started out the Nu52 with Tim. Maybe we'll get a new origin closer to what his past one was. I wouldn't mind it if both parents were alive, although I wonder if that's going to be the case. They may leave his dad alive. Seriously, I don't remember hearing anything about his parents at all past their brief introduction in Scott's TT. After that, poof gone.

----------


## Knight of DC

They were confirmed alive and even shown in Batman and Robin Eternal, much to the delight of a grateful nation.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I wonder if they're going to throw away any of the past things in the Teen Titans stories that started out the Nu52 with Tim. Maybe we'll get a new origin closer to what his past one was. I wouldn't mind it if both parents were alive, although I wonder if that's going to be the case. They may leave his dad alive. Seriously, I don't remember hearing anything about his parents at all past their brief introduction in Scott's TT. After that, poof gone.


Parents2.jpg

As seen in Batman and Robin Eternal

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Interesting tidbit from 'TEC editor from DC Rebirth Preview

RED ROBIN: aka The Dropout

“Red Robin [Tim Drake] always kept Batman at arm’s length, trying to forge his own road, but he’s at a crossroads in terms of what he wants to do with his life, maybe hanging up the mask.”

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...om-dc-rebirth/

----------


## KrustyKid

> Interesting tidbit from 'TEC editor from DC Rebirth Preview
> 
> RED ROBIN: aka The Dropout
> 
> “Red Robin [Tim Drake] always kept Batman at arm’s length, trying to forge his own road, but he’s at a crossroads in terms of what he wants to do with his life, maybe hanging up the mask.”
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...om-dc-rebirth/


This should make for an interesting story, at least from Tim's angle. I always thought if he dropped the mask and cape he'd go by Detective Drake, working at a detective agency of course. Sounds like we'll get some much needed development for him.

----------


## twincast

The first half of that quote kind of annoys me, but the second half sounds very much like the Tim I knew and loved, so here's hoping.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> This should make for an interesting story, at least from Tim's angle. I always thought if he dropped the mask and cape he'd go by Detective Drake, working at a detective agency of course. Sounds like we'll get some much needed development for him.


Yeah, my endgame for Drake has always been basically the modern Sherlock (consulting detective) but with the skills and versatility of a bat character.

@twincast I also don't like the first part, but it could just be the wording.

"Kept batman at arm's length, trying to forge his own road" vs "Quick to emerge from the shadow of the bat, trying to forge his own road"

----------


## Cmbmool

> Interesting tidbit from 'TEC editor from DC Rebirth Preview
> 
> RED ROBIN: aka The Dropout
> 
> “Red Robin [Tim Drake] always kept Batman at arm’s length, trying to forge his own road, but he’s at a crossroads in terms of what he wants to do with his life, maybe hanging up the mask.”
> 
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...om-dc-rebirth/


Honestly, this SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING.  :Mad: 

No ifs, and, or buts about it. This should have happen from the start and could have saved us a major headache considering how DC treats Tim Drake and  his history.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I'd love to eventually see Tim becoming his own detective and working with the others. Tim's probably going to learn from this how to manage both. How to be a teen with loving parents, and still do the whole bat thing. Who knows we might see our future oracle in him.

----------


## twincast

> "Kept batman at arm's length, trying to forge his own road" vs "Quick to emerge from the shadow of the bat, trying to forge his own road"


Yeah, I had thought of that possibility, too, but still, the sentence just irks and kinda worries me. :/

----------


## Rac7d*

i was getting the book of previews and decided to peak at the TT book. Wonder Woman has no idea who he is? To be fair she also doesnt know cass, but since he was a partner of batman i thought they were familar, Superman is head over heels for Dick, and also knows Jason and the entire JL knows Damian.  I was wondering where does Tim stand in exactly in DC as a whole inuniverse

----------


## Vinsanity

> i was getting the book of previews and decided to peak at the TT book. Wonder Woman has no idea who he is? To be fair she also doesnt know cass, but since he was a partner of batman i thought they were familar, Superman is head over heels for Dick, and also knows Jason and the entire JL knows Damian.  I was wondering where does Tim stand in exactly in DC as a whole inuniverse


Eh I can see why she wouldn't know.

----------


## godisawesome

It does sound like they're still going with Tim having a very abrieviated time as Batman's main partner and being more solo than even the old Pre-Flashpoint status quo. Which I still don't really like; it implies we're still going with an origin that makes Tim an idiot rewarded for being an idiot.

Here's an interesting thought I've gleaned from Tim's New 52 appearances; the more Tim is shown in civilian clothes, the better the story and issue will be. Not that he shouldn't put the costume on, but I've noticed that people were a bit friendlier toward the earlier TT issues where he was out of costume for a bit, the Batman and Robin Eternal story where he and Jaosn went undercover at a bar for a while,  these last few issues from Pak in TT recieved a few thumbs up just because Tim wasn't in the stupid wing costume.

----------


## KrustyKid

> i was getting the book of previews and decided to peak at the TT book. Wonder Woman has no idea who he is? To be fair she also doesnt know cass, but since he was a partner of batman i thought they were familar, Superman is head over heels for Dick, and also knows Jason and the entire JL knows Damian.  I was wondering where does Tim stand in exactly in DC as a whole inuniverse


I'm pretty sure she has heard of him, that was just the first time they met in the New-52 timeline. The amount of Robins Batman goes through it can be hard to keep up with, lol

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm pretty sure she has heard of him, that was just the first time they met in the New-52 timeline. The amount of Robins Batman goes through it can be hard to keep up with, lol


Thats just it, I'm suprised he has no contacts with the JL

----------


## josai21

It is quite a difference from the Tim who was put in charge of rescue efforts by Superman during infinite crisis. 


Personally...DC and Marvel need to man up and let their legacy characters become the main characters. Let progression happen. 

Love the pre flashpoint superman taking over. Married and has a kid...

----------


## twincast

Regarding his DC Rebirth costume again:

I recently finally started collecting all those sweet - mostly Batman(-related) - collected editons DC's been putting out the last couple of years, which is how I came to lay my eyes on Norm Beyfogle's concept arts for the aborted Robin costume design contest again for the first time in over a decade. (This site covers it all.) Long story short, other than the lack of Rambo bandanas, tunic laces and holsters for staff and slingshot, the new design's resemblance to the cape plus headband variant in particular is extremely strong - basically the same, only with more rounded armor pieces (and the smaller design elements mentioned above removed).

----------


## KrustyKid

> Regarding his DC Rebirth costume again:
> 
> I recently finally started collecting all those sweet - mostly Batman(-related) - collected editons DC's been putting out the last couple of years, which is how I came to lay my eyes on Norm Beyfogle's concept arts for the aborted Robin costume design contest again for the first time in over a decade. (This site covers it all.) Long story short, other than the lack of Rambo bandanas, tunic laces and holsters for staff and slingshot, the new design's resemblance to the cape plus headband variant in particular is extremely strong - basically the same, only with more rounded armor pieces (and the smaller design elements mentioned above removed).


Wow, thanks for sharing. I had never seen that before. It was interesting to say the least.

----------


## scary harpy

> Regarding his DC Rebirth costume again:
> 
> I recently finally started collecting all those sweet - mostly Batman(-related) - collected editons DC's been putting out the last couple of years, which is how I came to lay my eyes on Norm Beyfogle's concept arts for the aborted Robin costume design contest again for the first time in over a decade. (This site covers it all.) Long story short, other than the lack of Rambo bandanas, tunic laces and holsters for staff and slingshot, the new design's resemblance to the cape plus headband variant in particular is extremely strong - basically the same, only with more rounded armor pieces (and the smaller design elements mentioned above removed).





> Wow, thanks for sharing. I had never seen that before. It was interesting to say the least.


I thought the Norm Beyfogle's concepts were great. Better than what I've seen of Tim's new Rebirth costume...but those pictures are just no good.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I thought the Norm Beyfogle's concepts were great. Better than what I've seen of Tim's new Rebirth costume...but those pictures are just no good.


Yea, a few of them were certainly cringe worthy. Oh, and post 500!

----------


## Herowatcher

> Yea, a few of them were certainly cringe worthy. Oh, and post 500!


It's telling me you're post 499...so this will be post 500!

I miss Tim's early days as Robin.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's telling me you're post 499...so this will be post 500!
> 
> I miss Tim's early days as Robin.


I'm post 500 including the original. You're post 500 in replies. So we both reached a milestone tonight, lol. Agreed, Drake's early days were some of his best.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I thought the Norm Beyfogle's concepts were great. Better than what I've seen of Tim's new Rebirth costume...but those pictures are just no good.


I'm not bemoaning the quality of the new Rebirth costume; only the concept.  Like it or not, he's _Red_ Robin in New52 reality, not Robin; so his costume ought to be a Red Robin costume, not a slightly-modified Robin costume.  I'd go with the all-red costume he started wearing after IC, but with the “R” on the chest replaced by the cross straps and birds-head emblem that has been part of nearly every Red Robin costume.

----------


## KrustyKid

Who else would like if Tim get's the Redbird back at some point? I'd love for it to make a return. I wouldn't mind an updated look either.

----------


## twincast

> I'm not bemoaning the quality of the new Rebirth costume; only the concept.  Like it or not, he's _Red_ Robin in New52 reality, not Robin; so his costume ought to be a Red Robin costume, not a slightly-modified Robin costume.


I've been pondering this on and off quite a lot lately (and looking for exceptions to the following), but at the end of the day "Red Robin" is nothing but an emphasizing tautology. All of the various species called "robin" only have red(ish) breasts (thence the original - and more fitting - English name for them being "redbreast", with analogous constructions throughout much of continental Europe), either only on the chest area or reaching a bit further up and/or down, but all still only on the front of the torso - the one and only all-red "species" I could find being the mascot of the restaurant chain of the same name, which really shouldn't figure into costume design considerations at all.
Granted, the rest of the plumage is consistently various shades of brown and occasionally black and white, with no green - or yellow - to be seen whatsoever, so no Robin costume in DC's history - "Red" or not - has ever been 100% appropriately colored (the green and yellow clearly coming from the generally barely remembered Robin Hood inspiration), but that doesn't present a case for a Red Robin costume that's predominantly red.




> I'd go with the all-red costume he started wearing after IC, but with the “R” on the chest replaced by the cross straps and birds-head emblem that has been part of nearly every Red Robin costume.


By His Noodliness, please, not that awful piece of glaring blandness. Never again! Make the arms and legs black, though, then we're talking a costume both thematically fitting and visually pleasing.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It is quite a difference from the Tim who was put in charge of rescue efforts by Superman during infinite crisis. 
> 
> 
> Personally...DC and Marvel need to man up and let their legacy characters become the main characters. Let progression happen. 
> 
> Love the pre flashpoint superman taking over. Married and has a kid...


This will never happen, not permanently.

On the other hand, inevitable reboots to keep the main guys young doesn't have to meet gutting the legacy characters. Dick is a great example. Technically looking at the reboot he was made to be slightly younger, but you would never guess it from reading his book.

The same could have been done with Tim. I really liked where he was at towards the end of RR as a competent solo hero in his late teens. They just axed all his development for...reasons.

----------


## Herowatcher

> I'm post 500 including the original. You're post 500 in replies. So we both reached a milestone tonight, lol. Agreed, Drake's early days were some of his best.


 That's cool.  :Smile: 




> _Originally posted by KrustyKid_ 
> Who else would like if Tim get's the Redbird back at some point? I'd love for it to make a return. I wouldn't mind an updated look either.


I'm more partial to the Redbird Cycle he had. I'd like to see that come back and modernized.

----------


## twincast

Yeah, I love me some transforming vehicles, but they're only half as great when they don't turn into autonomous robots ( :Stick Out Tongue: ), and a bike really feels much more appropriate for Robin (and really all other costumed heroes in Gotham aside from Batman himself) than a car.

----------


## Atlanta96

I was really disappointed to see that this thread has so few posts, but then I saw that the Damian Wayne thread has even less. That's good enough for me!

Anyway, I was thinking about the upcoming Bat-books, and I really wish that Duke Thomas was in Detective Comics, and that Tim Drake was in Tom Kings Batman. Duke seems like he'd work better with the premise of Tynions DT story, and Tim would be way better off in King's series working with Batman 1 on 1. That sounds more appropriate for Tim than taking orders from Bruce and Kate alongside Cassandra, Stephanie, and Clayface. Seems like a waste of the character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I was really disappointed to see that this thread has so few posts, but then I saw that the Damian Wayne thread has even less. That's good enough for me!
> 
> Anyway, I was thinking about the upcoming Bat-books, and I really wish that Duke Thomas was in Detective Comics, and that Tim Drake was in Tom Kings Batman. Duke seems like he'd work better with the premise of Tynions DT story, and Tim would be way better off in King's series working with Batman 1 on 1. That sounds more appropriate for Tim than taking orders from Bruce and Kate alongside Cassandra, Stephanie, and Clayface. Seems like a waste of the character.


Given his position within the group (deputy) Under Bruce and Kate, I'm completely fine with it.

----------


## godisawesome

I think the idea is also to go ahead and give all the 90's Batkids to Tynion in one book so that their fans get to see the interact like they've been begging to. And it's probably best to let the guys who really created the newest characters play with them. I mean, plenty of people have given Tynion crud for writing Harper in a manner heavily reminiscent of Stephanie or of her taking what was Stephanie's chemistry and friendship with Cass. And seeing as how she was Snyder's character, it kind of makes sense that Tynion might want to play with his favorites all in the same book instead of having to help build Snyder's toy box.

The man's a fanboy for all three of the "kids" in the book, and arguably he might do much better getting to write them instead of doing someone else's character.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I think the idea is also to go ahead and give all the 90's Batkids to Tynion in one book so that their fans get to see the interact like they've been begging to. And it's probably best to let the guys who really created the newest characters play with them. I mean, plenty of people have given Tynion crud for writing Harper in a manner heavily reminiscent of Stephanie or of her taking what was Stephanie's chemistry and friendship with Cass. And seeing as how she was Snyder's character, it kind of makes sense that Tynion might want to play with his favorites all in the same book instead of having to help build Snyder's toy box.
> 
> The man's a fanboy for all three of the "kids" in the book, and arguably he might do much better getting to write them instead of doing someone else's character.


I would say yes to this pretty much. One thing I love is the way that he seems so enthused to use them. If they do do the car or cycle, I'm wondering just how often we'll see it.

----------


## Herowatcher

A happy Tim Drake.




This is how I like Robin (Tim) and Spoiler (Stephanie)

----------


## The Whovian

> A happy Tim Drake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I like Robin (Tim) and Spoiler (Stephanie)


I do too, but I like Steph better as Batgirl

----------


## DCStu

> Okay, the Pre-52 *Intro to Tim Drake Reading List*:
> 
> 5. Identity Crisis - Batman 455-457 (collected in Robin: A Hero Reborn)
> 
> 6. Robin #1-5, first miniseries (collected in Robin: A Hero Reborn)
> 
> 9. Robin II: The Joker's Wild #1-4, second miniseries (collected in Robin: Tragedy & Triumph)


Oh man... I LOVED these!

----------


## Vinsanity

> A happy Tim Drake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I like Robin (Tim) and Spoiler (Stephanie)



Oh man that hair.

----------


## KrustyKid

I loved that hair style

----------


## Vinsanity

But it's so dated. It's so 90's but whatever floats your boat.

----------


## godisawesome

Him having long hair isn't that bad of a deal; it's better than the weird little haircut they gave Jason a while back in RH/A, and I prefer Tim with a long, rich kid hair cut over him having the generic spiked look they give all the young heroes.

Speaking of Jason, you guys see how they modified Jason's origin in Rebirth's RHATO preview? Maybe they'll do some more modification to Tim's still-kind-of-sucky New 52 origin.

----------


## byrd156

> I loved that hair style


Same here, it helps give Tim his own look.

----------


## Frontier

> Speaking of Jason, you guys see how they modified Jason's origin in Rebirth's RHATO preview? Maybe they'll do some more modification to Tim's still-kind-of-sucky New 52 origin.


I guess that all depends on Tynion (or Johns, maybe?), but given he's getting a design more reminiscent of his original Robin suit, maybe it's a clue that we'll be going back to a more classic origin and depiction of Tim  :Smile: ?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Him having long hair isn't that bad of a deal; it's better than the weird little haircut they gave Jason a while back in RH/A, and I prefer Tim with a long, rich kid hair cut over him having the generic spiked look they give all the young heroes.
> 
> Speaking of Jason, you guys see how they modified Jason's origin in Rebirth's RHATO preview? Maybe they'll do some more modification to Tim's still-kind-of-sucky New 52 origin.


If they do, I'd like a mesh of the Pre-52 and the new 52 origin mixed together. While Tim's most recent origin wasn't as good as the original it still had some good points to it.

----------


## godisawesome

> If they do, I'd like a mesh of the Pre-52 and the new 52 origin mixed together. While Tim's most recent origin wasn't as good as the original it still had some good points to it.


I actually liked his parents still being alive and the Penguin being the main threat to their lives.

To me, the biggest character issue with Tim's New 52 origin is the part where he a) really wants to be Batman's sidekick beforehand and b) gets heat brought down in his family by stupidly stealing money from the Penguin and incompletely fails to cover his tracks, but c) gets to be a Bat-sidekick anyway while his family goes into Witness Protection and yet he doesn't.

Individual sections of that screw up are kind of allowable; it's when put together that they start to really suck and paint an ugly picture of Tim's character.

To me, the golden origin fro Tim right now would be to a) have Batman and Robin rescue a family targeted by Penguin for testifying against him, giving Tim a reason to idolize that Bat and Bird, then b) reveal him as one of Jason's sources and online allies before Jason's death so that he's doing some tech stuff before hand and getting privy to at least some of the Bat-family's operating procedures, then c) have him deduce Batman's ID because he's aware when Robin dies and Jason is dead, too, and d) pull the "A Lonely Place of Dying" story where he comes to Batman's aid in part to maintain the Robin identity's cover, honor Jason and Dick, and find a way to try and get his family free of Penguin's vengeful gaze. 

Then he became Red Robin afterwards.

----------


## Vinsanity

I just don't want to see that hair style in a comic in this decade because that hairstyle is 90's. It is something petty obviously. Really don't care that much about Tim's hair as long as it is not a mullet.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

When it comes to Tim's appearance in and out of costume I keep coming back to Marcus To. Outside of him as Robin from the Dixon days (where Grummett takes it), the post RoBW Red Robin costume and Tim' appearance there is the high point for me.

----------


## Herowatcher

No one can beat Tom Grummet when it comes to drawing Tim Drake /Robin....IMO.
Neal Adams designed this Robin costume (I believe) and is my favorite for Tim.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> No one can beat Tom Grummet when it comes to drawing Tim Drake /Robin....IMO.
> Neal Adams designed this Robin costume (I believe) and is my favorite for Tim.


I agree, Tom Grummet was the best! I also liked his Superboy drawing. Where he's working nowadays?
This Robin costume is awesome, never liked the red one Tim choose after Conner died.

----------


## KrustyKid

Another interview with JAMES TYNION IV about his upcoming run on DETECTIVE. Very informing stuff. I especially like that he'll be diving into Tim and Bruce's relationship since that has been lacking in the New-52.

http://doomrocket.com/james-tynion-iv-interview/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Grrr, I don't like the "This is what happens when you give a 17 year old genius an unlimited budget", and hope thats not a sign of things to come.

I hate hate hate hate "cocky" Tim, and was really hoping Tynion would shy away from that.

----------


## AJpyro

> Grrr, I don't like the "This is what happens when you give a 17 year old genius an unlimited budget", and hope thats not a sign of things to come.
> 
> I hate hate hate hate "cocky" Tim, and was really hoping Tynion would shy away from that.


...Wait, actual cocky or play acting cocky? From what little I've read, Tim shouldn't be the cocky one in actual characterization.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> ...Wait, actual cocky or play acting cocky? From what little I've read, Tim shouldn't be the cocky one in actual characterization.


He should not be actual cocky. Like the Tim that I think is "in character" would never directly refer to himself as a genius.

----------


## Frontier

It'd be nice if, with Rebirth, Tim can go back to being an actual Robin during his tenure at least.

----------


## KrustyKid

> He should not be actual cocky. Like the Tim that I think is "in character" would never directly refer to himself as a genius.


Agreed. Though I don't mind a little cockiness in a witty matter.

----------


## Vinsanity

I think he should be cocky. 

The guy is a Robin. Trained under the Bats. How are you not cocky? All athletes are cocky anyway because it helps them and competitiveness or all that jazz. Tim being not cocky is so vanilla.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think he should be cocky. 
> 
> The guy is a Robin. Trained under the Bats. How are you not cocky? All athletes are cocky anyway because it helps them and competitiveness or all that jazz. Tim being not cocky is so vanilla.


Yea, I like a little cockiness from him as long as it isn't over blown.

----------


## AJpyro

> I think he should be cocky. 
> 
> The guy is a Robin. Trained under the Bats. How are you not cocky? All athletes are cocky anyway because it helps them and competitiveness or all that jazz. Tim being not cocky is so vanilla.


Yeah but out of them all, he's the most like a nerd...actually a nerd that got jock training should be just as cokcy as Jason or Damien. But I think having a family should temper that a bit.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Yeah but out of them all, he's the most like a nerd...actually a nerd that got jock training should be just as cokcy as Jason or Damien. But I think having a family should temper that a bit.


A nerd can be cocky too. I mean have you seen those people have get their marks from exams? Man, they are arrogant and cocky to the max.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

The Tim Drake I knew would never be cocky. He was a smart, sweet boy who had his strength exactly in knowing his limits. 

Damien and Jason are the cocky ones, not Tim. That's the reason I like him and Dick more than Damien and Jason.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> The Tim Drake I knew would never be cocky. He was a smart, sweet boy who had his strength exactly in knowing his limits. 
> 
> Damien and Jason are the cocky ones, not Tim. That's the reason I like him and Dick more than Damien and Jason.


This, he was the cautious robin.

And a little cockiness/ confidence is one thing. Directly referring to yourself as a genius is some kanye west foolishness.

----------


## godisawesome

I think all of us expect a little confidence from Tim, but a quite a few have been burned out on "arrogant" Tim, like in Teen Titans. Dixon, Nicieza and Peter David did showcase instances where Tim correctly gauged that he had the situation under control and had his personality reflect that, particularly Nicieza in the Red Robin books where Tim was a veteran vigilante who'd earned a little swagger.

But Tim's humility is a key component of his character, one Scott Lobdell never seemed to grasp, and its a key component that really needs to be there when interacting with others. Now, if Tynion starts softly retconning Tim's history to make it clear he's been around a while and done some things, than I wouldn't mind some Nicieza level confidence, where he's down to Earth in civvies, and walking the line between just confident enough and then just a little too much (and immediately paying for it) when in costume.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I agree, Tom Grummet was the best! I also liked his Superboy drawing. Where he's working nowadays?
> This Robin costume is awesome, never liked the red one Tim choose after Conner died.


I forgot about that. He liked Conner so much that he changed his costume to honor him when he died. Those 2 were the Sam and Frodo of comics.

And I think Tom Grummett drew those Convergence Speed Force issues. They may have sucked but at least they were well drawn.

----------


## twincast

> I forgot about that. He liked Conner so much that he changed his costume to honor him when he died.


It's the one and only good thing about both Tim's awful post-Infinite Crisis costume and Kon's awful post-Graduation Day "costume".




> Grrr, I don't like the "This is what happens when you give a 17 year old genius an unlimited budget", and hope thats not a sign of things to come.
> 
> I hate hate hate hate "cocky" Tim, and was really hoping Tynion would shy away from that.


That line made me cringe as well, just like I've been wary about the base being constructed by Tim from the get-go because the security system at his parents' house in BARE (*snicker*) was way too over the top for my taste, but other than that the interview is pure gold filled with Tim-fanboying bliss, so I refuse to get pessimistic about it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I do too, but I like Steph better as Batgirl


Well, I liked her Batgirl book, but Steph's no Batgirl to me, so I'm more than happy she's back to being Spoiler (grimdark nuorigin aside).

And I agree that Tom Grummet and Marcus To are the definitive artists for Tim's two major well-done hero phases. That said, I don't remember either era having any bad art in his solo book (and most other appearances). (In contrast, the creatively abysmal era between the two Dixon runs is filled with - not only but quite much - bad art.)

----------


## josai21

Honestly, I like the line. To me it gives off a more humorous vibe than arrogance.

It makes me think of that one line from when Tim and the others were just becoming the next generation of Titans. Can't remember the exact line but paraphrased:

"Dude, you just lied to Cyborg!"

Tim grins.

"I lie to batman."

----------


## KrustyKid

So which relationship is everyone looking most forward to seeing explored in Detective for Tim? Bruce, Steph, Cass, Kate, or perhaps Clayface? Just curious.

----------


## Atlanta96

Just read an interview with James Tynion that finally got me interested in Detective. He claimed Tim was his favorite Robin (which I question) but he's definitely a big fan of the character. Tynion really emphasized Tim's intelligence and also described him as the emotional heart of the series. Doesn't sound like a weak or superfluous character, which I was worried about. And Tim and Stephanie relationship is confirmed! Writing could still be bad, but his enthusiasm for the series has me interested. Also, I'm 2/3rds through Robin: Triumphant. Loving it so far, 90s were the Golden Age for the Bat-Family!

----------


## Caivu

> So which relationship is everyone looking most forward to seeing explored in Detective for Tim? Bruce, Steph, Cass, Kate, or perhaps Clayface? Just curious.


Really everyone except Bruce. I don't think Tim's ever met Clayface or Kate, and the potential for initial friction is there with both of them. He's briefly met Cass and Steph IIRC, but there's a bunch of room for their relationships to grow, and they have the advantage of being similar ages.

----------


## godisawesome

Cass and Steph; I want to see the Batfamily Generation 3 develop a good rapport and chemistry. I think Tim tends to work best when he's part of a three person comedy and drama dynamic. Young Justice the comic started off with the original three kids, and in Red Robin his main two supporters were Tam Fox and Lonnie Machin, and all three did a good job of defining event everyone's personality by playing with a group dynamic.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Really everyone except Bruce. I don't think Tim's ever met Clayface or Kate, and the potential for initial friction is there with both of them. He's briefly met Cass and Steph IIRC, but there's a bunch of room for their relationships to grow, and they have the advantage of being similar ages.


Tim actually crossed both Kate (as Red Robin for like a panel) and Clayface (They had a small bout) in Batman Eternal. Though he didn't really interact with either of them on a meaningful level. So that is something to look forward to. For me Steph and Cass are a given. Next would be a toss up between Bruce (seen very little of it) and Kate. We know the two of them see it differently on how the team should be trained. It should also be interesting to see which method of approach each member favors. I see Cass siding more with Bruce, on the flip side I'd imagine Steph would be more in line with Kate. Tim on the other hand seems like he could be on the fence, given that he has experience going solo and working with a team. Clayface is the only one I am uncertain of. It should be fun to see how he plays out not only with Drake, but the rest of the cast as well.

----------


## Caivu

> Tim actually crossed both Kate (as Red Robin for like a panel)


Cool. Was that in the very last issue? I know pretty much everyone in Gotham showed up for that. This also reminded me that (IIRC) they worked together briefly during Detective Comics: Endgame.




> I see Cass siding more with Bruce, on the flip side I'd imagine Steph would be more in line with Kate. Tim on the other hand seems like he could be on the fence, given that he has experience going solo and working with a team. Clayface is the only one I am uncertain of.


I think you're right on all counts, and splitting up the trainees equally between the two leads would make for a nice bit of tension in the team. Clayface would probably be with Kate since they've worked together before. Tim and Cass with Bruce for the same reason, and I can totally see Kate warming up to Steph since she and Bette have such similar personalities.

Man, if 'Tec ends up being only half as good as some of the theories I've heard here and elsewhere, it's still going to be really good.

----------


## SicariiDC

Hey whatever happened to Arianna? I never read robin aside from the event crossovers but I always liked Tim's relationship with her...then next time I seen him he was with steph iirc

----------


## godisawesome

I think she was moved away by her uncle after Tim and her had a heartfelt discussion about how serious their relationship was getting, because the uncle walked in on them while Arianna was dressed in negligee in an attempt to seduce Tim (to be clear, it was an awkward and, appropriately for the characters, apprehensive scene).

At least that's what I remember. I think she got phased out afterwards; Dixon wanted to bring ear back, but by then he'd hit his groove in writing Stephanie, and since one character managed to hold down a solo at a future date and another vanished, you can tell how that worked out.

----------


## SicariiDC

> I think she was moved away by her uncle after Tim and her had a heartfelt discussion about how serious their relationship was getting, because the uncle walked in on them while Arianna was dressed in negligee in an attempt to seduce Tim (to be clear, it was an awkward and, appropriately for the characters, apprehensive scene).
> 
> At least that's what I remember. I think she got phased out afterwards; Dixon wanted to bring ear back, but by then he'd hit his groove in writing Stephanie, and since one character managed to hold down a solo at a future date and another vanished, you can tell how that worked out.


Yeah I feel that, i just liked his gf not being a hero or wannabe. 
LOL at the Robin #twenty something issue ending on (what I thought was) a crazy cliff hanger where Tim's like "omg Ari..." And find out next issue (months later when I read it in the cataclysm trade or something) that she just dyed her hair blonde! Hahahaha felt like such an idiot (esp cuz I'm 32 not 15)

----------


## phantom1592

> I think all of us expect a little confidence from Tim, but a quite a few have been burned out on "arrogant" Tim, like in Teen Titans. Dixon, Nicieza and Peter David did showcase instances where Tim correctly gauged that he had the situation under control and had his personality reflect that, particularly Nicieza in the Red Robin books where Tim was a veteran vigilante who'd earned a little swagger.
> 
> But Tim's humility is a key component of his character, one Scott Lobdell never seemed to grasp, and its a key component that really needs to be there when interacting with others. Now, if Tynion starts softly retconning Tim's history to make it clear he's been around a while and done some things, than I wouldn't mind some Nicieza level confidence, where he's down to Earth in civvies, and walking the line between just confident enough and then just a little too much (and immediately paying for it) when in costume.



This. 

There is a line between Confident and Cocky. Tim was usually shown as confident in his training and his abilities. His years as Robin showed him what he COULD do, and he knew what he could handle. However, it also showed him that with one wrong move, he could be beat to death with a crowbar... So Tim being Confident is awesome, Tim being Cocky is annoying.

----------


## Jadeb

Agreed. Tim's hubris has gotten really old, especially considering how undeserved it is since the reboot. Having him certain he's unstoppable robs the story of all its drama -- the character never seems to be in any real danger. Even in the Red Robin series, old Tim knew he was capable but recognized he was no Batman. He was playing in the big leagues, but barely, and I loved how he had to earn his victories.

----------


## josai21

Beating a dead horse, but this is why new 52 was terrible for Tim.

I felt Red Robin ended right as he entered the "big leagues." Right as he had fully completed his journey into fully becoming Red Robin. 

He had finally reached that level of becoming his own hero similar to how Grayson had become night wing.

He wasn't as good as Batman, but if DC truly allowed progression...I feel we would have seen him as the leader of the gen3 heroes. The first to truly step beyond the role of side kick

----------


## godisawesome

I believe Fabian Nicieza or Chuck Dixon said they had plans to officially show Tim as an 18 year old before the reboot of his history, with whichever one it was pointing out that Tim's career and the OYL premise meant that he actually should have been officially declared that a while ago.

And then the New 52 and was all about trying to peg Tim down as a 16-17 year old again.

And I still think that trying to make Red Robin his only identity worked to make Tim come off as much less experienced and in some ways less unique than they intended.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I believe Fabian Nicieza or Chuck Dixon said they had plans to officially show Tim as an 18 year old before the reboot of his history, with whichever one it was pointing out that Tim's career and the OYL premise meant that he actually should have been officially declared that a while ago.
> 
> And then the New 52 and was all about trying to peg Tim down as a 16-17 year old again.
> 
> And I still think that trying to make Red Robin his only identity worked to make Tim come off as much less experienced and in some ways less unique than they intended.


Agreed, him being RR all along removes the "step up" from Robin to RR.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Agreed, him being RR all along removes the "step up" from Robin to RR.


While I do agree, I see why the move was made. How long was he Batman's sidekick in the New-52? A month? Four months at most? It would have been silly for him to change his name after such a short time. Also I much prefer New-52 Tim's reasoning for choosing the Red Robin name (to honor Jason) over the Pre-52 reason (to distance himself from the Bat Fam). Though obviously his transition from Robin to RR over time Pre-52 was great to watch. Either way, it will be great to see him back with the Bat Fam.

----------


## Dataweaver

Given that the five-year timeline is now dead, perhaps Tim's early career as Robin can be restored?  At least in principle; the details obviously can't be restored, not with (for example) Stephanie being someone that Tim only recently met and has thus far had little interaction with.  

OTOH, with the de-aging of Tim (so that he's now 16ish rather than 18–19), the notion that he has “graduated” from his teenaged crimefighter days doesn't work as well; so maybe it's just as well that he has “always” been Red Robin in the new timeline.  And maybe this time around, when he “graduates”, it'll be something more along the lines of him becoming the new Oracle or starting up “Drake Investigations: Solutions For All Your Crimefighting Needs”.  Heck, he could even start something like that now, by taking charge of the “We Are Robin” movement and turning them into his version of the Birds of Prey.  After Batman helps him get his head screwed on straight again in 'Tec, of course.

----------


## godisawesome

> While I do agree, I see why the move was made. How long was he Batman's sidekick in the New-52? A month? Four months at most? It would have been silly for him to change his name after such a short time. Also I much prefer New-52 Tim's reasoning for choosing the Red Robin name (to honor Jason) over the Pre-52 reason (to distance himself from the Bat Fam). Though obviously his transition from Robin to RR over time Pre-52 was great to watch. Either way, it will be great to see him back with the Bat Fam.


And to me it's still a botched job for an explanation that end sup being a significant slight against Tim's character. Why is it his career as Robin has to take the hit when the other three boys suffer no such problem? Dick's still the veteran, Jason sill had a decent career length, Damian doesn't even fit the timeline, and none of them held a solo that ran for 150+ issues with the title "Robin" on it. The five year timeline did jack-all for the Batman characters and was already being ignored surreptitiously even during the editorially crazy days of the New 52's launch; and now apparently we're supposed to consider it a 10-year history in the Rebirth launch, so why should we stick Tim with a longer career during the stupid Teen Titans books that DC themselves have written off as a failure?

And the name change and the idea behind it got botched in portrayal. I don't necessarily think Scott Lobdell sucks absolutely as a writer, but I do think he checked out of TT shortly after the Culling, and so most of his creative decisions afterwards were abysmal. Tim trying to honor Jason just wasn't explored or portrayed enough to really work; it was short expositional lines scattered through not one but two separate attempts to somehow transform Tim into a cooler Red Robin, and both issues sucked. It never got explored enough to matter, in the same way everything about Tim's New 52 origin was too shallow and nonsensical.

Seriously, fanboys running an abridged series communicated that idea better with the Fedora Player's Young Justice Abridged on Youtube, and had some genuine emotion in it. And when fan-products made by hacking up cartoons have a better grasp of your idea than you do, something's wrong.

----------


## KrustyKid

> And to me it's still a botched job for an explanation that end sup being a significant slight against Tim's character. Why is it his career as Robin has to take the hit when the other three boys suffer no such problem? Dick's still the veteran, Jason sill had a decent career length, Damian doesn't even fit the timeline, and none of them held a solo that ran for 150+ issues with the title "Robin" on it. The five year timeline did jack-all for the Batman characters and was already being ignored surreptitiously even during the editorially crazy days of the New 52's launch; and now apparently we're supposed to consider it a 10-year history in the Rebirth launch, so why should we stick Tim with a longer career during the stupid Teen Titans books that DC themselves have written off as a failure?
> 
> And the name change and the idea behind it got botched in portrayal. I don't necessarily think Scott Lobdell sucks absolutely as a writer, but I do think he checked out of TT shortly after the Culling, and so most of his creative decisions afterwards were abysmal. Tim trying to honor Jason just wasn't explored or portrayed enough to really work; it was short expositional lines scattered through not one but two separate attempts to somehow transform Tim into a cooler Red Robin, and both issues sucked. It never got explored enough to matter, in the same way everything about Tim's New 52 origin was too shallow and nonsensical.
> 
> Seriously, fanboys running an abridged series communicated that idea better with the Fedora Player's Young Justice Abridged on Youtube, and had some genuine emotion in it. And when fan-products made by hacking up cartoons have a better grasp of your idea than you do, something's wrong.


You pretty much hit it on the nail. The fact that it wasn't 'explored' enough didn't give it as much weight as it could have. But since his only place was in a team book there wasn't much room to do that. With Jason regaining some of his Pre-52 origin maybe we'll get the same for Tim. Only time will tell.

----------


## K. Jones

So today's issues featured brief previews at the end for Tom King's Batman, Tynion's Detective and Snyder's All-Star. Key notes regarding Tim Drake; the King preview mentioned the toughness of Gothamites and what they put up with, and the city itself, and specifically mentioned not just recent Jokerizing, but the Contagion and the No Man's Land storylines. Key event chapters during the Tim Drake Robin period.

The Tynion preview mentioned Tim as having been sort of avoiding Batman mentorship lately, calling him the "dropout", though being forcibly shoved out by Bruce's "death" and Dick and Damian taking over is more accurate. Pushed out of the nest, somewhat.

----------


## KrustyKid

> So today's issues featured brief previews at the end for Tom King's Batman, Tynion's Detective and Snyder's All-Star. Key notes regarding Tim Drake; the King preview mentioned the toughness of Gothamites and what they put up with, and the city itself, and specifically mentioned not just recent Jokerizing, but the Contagion and the No Man's Land storylines. Key event chapters during the Tim Drake Robin period.
> 
> The Tynion preview mentioned Tim as having been sort of avoiding Batman mentorship lately, calling him the "dropout", though being forcibly shoved out by Bruce's "death" and Dick and Damian taking over is more accurate. Pushed out of the nest, somewhat.


Maybe he's avoiding Batman's mentorship because he making strides to becoming a milkman :Big Grin:

----------


## Vinsanity

> Maybe he's avoiding Batman's mentorship because he making strides to becoming a milkman



Or Tim and Miguel want to create a nightclub and become owners with Cassie having a stake. 

They'll call it....The Bunker!!!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Or Tim and Miguel want to create a nightclub and become owners with Cassie having a stake. 
> 
> They'll call it....The Bunker!!!


Nice one! Hahahah, that seems more likely than the milkman gig.

----------


## josai21

Avoiding batman so mentorship kinda plays off the way their relationship was left at the end of Red Robin...though looks like it might be more of a bastardized version.

Less mutual respect
More errant kid who needs to get in line

----------


## Aahz

> And to me it's still a botched job for an explanation that end sup being a significant slight against Tim's character. Why is it his career as Robin has to take the hit when the other three boys suffer no such problem? Dick's still the veteran, Jason sill had a decent career length, Damian doesn't even fit the timeline, and none of them held a solo that ran for 150+ issues with the title "Robin" on it.


It is based on the comics actually not really clear how long each of the were Robin. And the different comics contradict each other.
Problem with Tim just seems bigger since pre flashpoint his time as Robin was quite well defined (since it all happened in that continuity) and now it is similar like with Dick pre flashpoint were it was also not exactly clear what from the older continuity was canon and what wasn't.

----------


## phantom1592

Still astonished that Jason got the kind of credit he did... If there was ANY Robin that could have easily been cut out of the mythos it was him. Even if they wanted to keep him in the '5 year' timeline....  Joins, gets costume, gets killed...  He could have taken up a month or even less of the Robin timeline. Tim?? He was Robin from what? 1989 to 2009 (lists as Red Robin 1)  TWENTY YEARS??  Jason wore the suit for FIVE years... and outside stealing the hubcaps, and getting killed, I don't know of ANY iconic stories of his. There was plenty of time in there for Tim to have been a major player as sidekick. 

In fact I heard that was part of the whole Death in the Family scandal... a lot of general public didn't even realize it wasn't Dick as Robin anymore.

----------


## Aahz

> Joins, gets costume, gets killed...  He could have taken up a month or even less of the Robin timeline.


According to his revised Origin in "Secret Origins" he was only robin for few month.




> Jason wore the suit for FIVE years... and outside stealing the hubcaps, and getting killed, I don't know of ANY iconic stories of his.


"The Diplomats Son", "The Cult", "Legends" and "For the Man how has Everything". 

And he was probably not cut from the continuity since "A Death in the Family" and "Under the Red Hood" are more iconic than than any Dick, Tim or Damian centred Batman Story.

----------


## phantom1592

> "The Diplomats Son", "The Cult", "Legends" and "For the Man how has Everything".


Yeah... never actually read any of those. Never really hear them referenced or thought about... Except 'For the Man who has Everything'... and from what I've seen it's not REALLY a Jason story. It's a superman story that has Jason in the costume in the background. Most adaptions just pull Robin right out of the story, but even with him in it... is there anything that NEEDS that to be Jason? Couldn't it just as easily have taken place during the Dick years? 

I know that there was a time he 'maybe kinda killed a guy' that was pretty much setup for DitF.





> And he was probably not cut from the continuity since "A Death in the Family" and "Under the Red Hood" are more iconic than than any Dick, Tim or Damian centred Batman Story.


I hate everything about Damian... and a good Dick story is tough to find. They've gone out of their way to retcon that 'pre-robin' year one time of Batman as longer and longer... Like how Robin was around for Joker's first appearance originally. 

As for Tim's iconic Batman stories? I would definitely place Knightfall/Knightsend as pretty major to the Batman mythos. Probably moreso than Under the Red Hood.  Batman also became a major crossover beast during the Tim years... so everything from Knightfall to contagion to no man's land were all major crossover books with Tim playing major parts going so far as his parts in Hush... Not even counting the pretty awesome Teen Titans relaunch... 


I'll admit that PART of it is the TPB philosophies now days. During Jason's run, there just weren't many of them out except for DitF. By Tim's day single issues stories were rare and most were collected... I think Damian has his entire career collected by now... but Jason? They just haven't gone back and done those.... Same with Dick. TPBs tend to go back to his Nightwing books, but not so much Batman & Robin days. I'm pretty sure it was still Burt Ward who made Dick Grayson the iconic #1 Robin to the world at large... not his comic adventures.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I'm just sitting here amused at the thought that people think Legends and For the man who has everything are iconic Jason stories or that Diplomats Son is an iconic story to even begin with and Knightfall & Contagion/Legacy + NML are iconic Tim stories, reaching much folks? I guess Superman, Mongul, Bane, Cass, Batman, Ra's and JPV got lost somewhere during the conversation. NML in particular isn't even a story, just a collection of stories and I for one cant even think about any noteworthy Tim tale from that collection.

Standing in the background and being indistinguishable/interchangeable  doesn't equal iconic, a lot of reaching going on around here.I guess Dick should add Court of Owls to his collection of iconic stories (and all the stories mentioned for Tim) by that logic.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah... never actually read any of those. Never really hear them referenced or thought about... Except 'For the Man who has Everything'... and from what I've seen it's not REALLY a Jason story. It's a superman story that has Jason in the costume in the background. Most adaptions just pull Robin right out of the story, but even with him in it... is there anything that NEEDS that to be Jason? Couldn't it just as easily have taken place during the Dick years?


The Robins are all kind of interchangeable in many stories. You could retell many of their stories with an other Robin without changing much.
Even A Death in the Family wouldn't be much different if Dick (or maybe even Tim) had been the Robin in that story.
The only Jason story imo apart from his origin, that would not really work that way with Dick or Tim (but probably with Damian) is Diplomats Son.




> As for Tim's iconic Batman stories? I would definitely place Knightfall/Knightsend as pretty major to the Batman mythos. Probably moreso than Under the Red Hood. Batman also became a major crossover beast during the Tim years...


But was Tim really important for Knightfall? The main protagonists of that story were imo Bruce, Bane and JVP, everybody else was not really relevant.




> so everything from Knightfall to contagion to no man's land were all major crossover books with Tim playing major parts going so far as his parts in Hush


His main role in contagion was iirc to get infected so the anothers had to find a cure. And during No Man's Land he was for the most part not even in Gotham. Huntress, Barbara, Cass Cain, Azrael and the GCPD had iirc all bigger role is that story. And I can't even remember that he was in Hush.

The difference was in general that Tim was often just one of many characters in that storylines, while during Jasons time it was mostly just him and Batman.

----------


## phantom1592

> I'm just sitting here amused at the thought that people think Legends and For the man who has everything are iconic Jason stories or that Diplomats Son is an iconic story to even begin with and Knightfall & Contagion/Legacy + NML are iconic Tim stories, reaching much folks? I guess Superman, Mongul, Bane, Cass, Batman, Ra's and JPV got lost somewhere during the conversation. NML in particular isn't even a story, just a collection of stories and I for one cant even think about any noteworthy Tim tale from that collection.
> 
> Standing in the background and being indistinguishable/interchangeable  doesn't equal iconic, a lot of reaching going on around here.I guess Dick should add Court of Owls to his collection of iconic stories (and all the stories mentioned for Tim) by that logic.


I consider Knightfall to be one for sure. Between his mostly solo issue escaping from Killer Croc/Bane... or him taking out the Riddler on his own... to essentially his training JPV and moving from sidekick to Mentor while bruce was broken... and it all lead up to his solo series. The series is meant to be about Batman going solo against all his villains at once.. but Robin did a lot more then just stand in the background for that story. It was basically the story that pushed him out of the nest and made the sidekick a solo hero. 

The others may be pushing it a bit, but I remember that Tim was at the center of Contagion, though admittedly I missed a few issues in that story. Any story in a Batman book... is really BATMAN's story, but Tim had a lot of exposure in a few of those epic crossovers. 

Granted, I still think my favorite was the Robin II: Joker's Wild... That HAS to be considered an Iconic Tim story?

----------


## Aahz

> I'm just sitting here amused at the thought that people think Legends and For the man who has everything are iconic Jason stories


To clarify myself, these are not iconic Jason stories. But it are big stories where Jason played a role (that was a little bit bigger that just standing in the background). I just wanted to counter the claim that nothing important or big happened in his career.
And Diplomats son may not be that big, but is imo still more memorable than most stories from Dick original run as Robin.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I consider Knightfall to be one for sure. Between his mostly solo issue escaping from Killer Croc/Bane... or him taking out the Riddler on his own... to essentially his training JPV and moving from sidekick to Mentor while bruce was broken... and it all lead up to his solo series. The series is meant to be about Batman going solo against all his villains at once.. but Robin did a lot more then just stand in the background for that story. It was basically the story that pushed him out of the nest and made the sidekick a solo hero. 
> 
> The others may be pushing it a bit, but I remember that Tim was at the center of Contagion, though admittedly I missed a few issues in that story. Any story in a Batman book... is really BATMAN's story, but Tim had a lot of exposure in a few of those epic crossovers. 
> 
> Granted, I still think my favorite was the Robin II: Joker's Wild... That HAS to be considered an Iconic Tim story?


Yeah it's an iconic Tim story but it's not an iconic story, if you get what I mean. Iconic stories are remembered, referenced, adapted, inform future stories and characterization make it to top lists and so on, Joker's Wild has the ignominy of not even being on the radar when it comes to flipping Joker.

Knightfall is about Bruce, Bane and JPV, you can think what you want but it's not even close to being a Tim story, the writers never made any effort to involve Tim in to the story, not even in Knightsend when Bruce was training with Shiva, not sure why you mentioned Riddler because it's not about him either. There were never any stakes for Tim in Knightfall.

Edit: I just remembered Prodigal, Dick has a far bigger claim on Knightfall than Tim ever did though even I wouldn't consider Prodigal iconic.

----------


## Kurtzberg

> I consider Knightfall to be one for sure. Between his mostly solo issue escaping from Killer Croc/Bane... or him taking out the Riddler on his own... to essentially his training JPV and moving from sidekick to Mentor while bruce was broken... and it all lead up to his solo series. The series is meant to be about Batman going solo against all his villains at once.. but Robin did a lot more then just stand in the background for that story. It was basically the story that pushed him out of the nest and made the sidekick a solo hero. 
> 
> The others may be pushing it a bit, but I remember that Tim was at the center of Contagion, though admittedly I missed a few issues in that story. Any story in a Batman book... is really BATMAN's story, but Tim had a lot of exposure in a few of those epic crossovers. 
> 
> Granted, I still think my favorite was the Robin II: Joker's Wild... That HAS to be considered an Iconic Tim story?


Really the only Tim Drake story I'd even approach calling iconic, is A Lonely Place of Dying. Probably not even that though, iconic is a word that gets thrown around a lot, and really there aren't a lot of iconic stories for supporting Batman characters. Knightfall isn't something I would consider an iconic Tim story, Tim really doesn't even cross my mind much when thinking about it, it's the iconic Bane story. Same for Contagion/Legacy and NML, Tim doesn't spring to mind really at all when thinking of those stories. 
Death in the Family springs to mind as iconic, due to how Jason's death impacted Bruce. Maybe a few years down the road some of the Morrison stuff might reach something like an iconic level for Damian/Dick because of Morrison's run being so well received. There are iconic Batman stories, because he's an iconic character, but not so much for his supporting cast. Robin is an iconic mantle, but the characters that have worn the mask are less so, Dick comes the closest as he has transcended beyond just being the Boy Wonder, and to a lesser degree Jason with becoming the Red Hood.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> To clarify myself, these are not iconic Jason stories. But it are big stories where Jason played a role (that was a little bit bigger that just standing in the background). I just wanted to counter the claim that nothing important or big happened in his career.
> And Diplomats son may not be that big, but is imo still more memorable than most stories from Dick original run as Robin.


Dick makes up for lack of iconic stories by being the most iconic of them all:
He's the most well known.
He's the longest serving Robin.
Has appeared in a whole line of t.v series, animated films, live action films, a t.v show.
Is part of the Teen Titans (from where his role has become a hand me down for the rest).
Has identities which became hand me downs,e.g Red Robin and even Nightwing for the others.
Created the basic Robin visual, he's the reason why they're black haired, blue eyed boys.
Even his relationships have been passed on.

All in all the other Robins lift from Dick, Jason lifts the most and Damian the least with Tim in the middle but they do lift.

----------


## Aahz

@darkseidpwns
I don't want to play Dicks importance down. But the fact is that in the comics hardly any "iconic" stories (for any character) were written before the 80s, when Dick left the mantle of Robin behind. His best stories as Robin are either retroactive ones that were written later or are from the animated shows (mostly Teen Titans and Young Justice).

----------


## phantom1592

> Yeah it's an iconic Tim story but it's not an iconic story, if you get what I mean. Iconic stories are remembered, referenced, adapted, inform future stories and characterization make it to top lists and so on, Joker's Wild has the ignominy of not even being on the radar when it comes to flipping Joker.
> 
> Knightfall is about Bruce, Bane and JPV, you can think what you want but it's not even close to being a Tim story, the writers never made any effort to involve Tim in to the story, not even in Knightsend when Bruce was training with Shiva, not sure why you mentioned Riddler because it's not about him either. There were never any stakes for Tim in Knightfall.
> 
> Edit: I just remembered Prodigal, Dick has a far bigger claim on Knightfall than Tim ever did though even I wouldn't consider Prodigal iconic.


/Shrug... .Everyone has different opinions and definitions. Maybe we're getting tied up on the term Iconic... 

I see Knightfall as it's own story, and Knightsend as it's own. Dick wasn't even IN Knightsfall, though he played a significant part in Knightsend and prodigal. I loved Prodigal. One of my favorite Dick stories out there, but it didnt' last long...and he went back to status quo, while Tim got his own series with the 100+ issues out of Knightsfall. There wasn't even much of a break. Batman issue ends with JPV strangling Tim... Robin #1 picks up with him fleeing the cave. If you skip the Robin issue, you'd miss some story... 

The 'A' plot was definitely about Bruce and Bane... but there was that subtler 'B' Plot that was all set up for a solo Tim woven in there. The whole 'Is there a Robin without a Batman?' concept. I really would consider Knightfall, along with Lonely place of dying.  to be required reading for  anyone who was going to write Tim.

----------


## godisawesome

> @darkseidpwns
> I don't want to play Dicks importance down. But the fact is that in the comics hardly any "iconic" stories (for any character) were written before the 80s, when Dick left the mantle of Robin behind. His best stories as Robin are either retroactive ones that were written later or are from the animated shows (mostly Teen Titans and Young Justice).


I'd agree with that. I'd say its more accurate to say the Robins have character specific iconic stories; Robin-lead stories that aren't in themselves blockbuster moments in comic history. 

I mean, each of the boys has some element of that classic all-comics landmark issue: Dick's graduation to Nightwing (still arguably the only completely successful upgrade of a character where no one ever demoted him to an old identity from it) in Teen Titans was a landmark for DC's generational storytelling, Jason's role in "Death in the Family" is a major Joker victory and turning point in Gotham, Tim's reconstruction of the "sidekick" gimmick in the 90's as being a spin off character in a successful solo as opposed to a supporting cast member, and Damian as part of the Dick-as-Batman run.

Now, as individual iconic moments for the boys, I'd say Diplomat's Son definitely qualifies for Jason. It established how Jason existed in a different comic world than Dick, and did a lot to build him as having a righteous anger personality. Damian has his death in Inc.; yes, we all kind of knew it was going to be undone and it really was just a piece of Morrison's divorce allegory, but it showed his character development under Morrison's pen.

Tim's iconic moments I think are defined as his first solo mini-series by Dixon, the Contagion story because it featured his most distilled Dixon-ian portrayal, arguably all the issues where the plot reaper came to break him (yes, I think it was stupid of editorial to kill his father, step-mother, two best friends, and his girlfriend, but they did mark a shift in the character), and then the tail end of his solo series run into Red Robin, where Yost and FabNic gave him an evolution.

What is kind of remarkable about Tim's big moments is how they do illustrate character development even in horrible editorial decisions. Tim was arguably created to address the issues people had with Jason, and took off as a firm reconstruction of the Robin concept. Editorial starts killing his friends and family, and Tim reacts in a legitimately tragic way. Editorial starts resurrecting his friends, and of course Tim won't accept that Bruce is going to stay dead. And after having even death itself prove inconsistent, of course Tim's going to start being a bit of a control freak.

And that's the biggest reason why the New 52 wasn't that good to the Batman family; they transitioned over largely with their then-current characterizations in place, but struggled with the suddenly context-less background they had, and that hurt certain characters a lot more than others. Jason was pretty static at the time, so he was okay. Damian was under Morrison's control and pretty new, so he was okay. But Dick suddenly became a lot less impressive because he just ditched the cowl and went back to being Nightwing, but in a world where he just didn't have the connections or experience he used to. It felt like they killed his momentum and just got it back after Grayson started up again. And Tim...Tim without the utterly insane history his personal life had before Flashpoint was suddenly a little arrogant, and then Lobdell made that a defining character trait, sucked at writing a good Titans arc, then the book was cancelled twice. and that Batgirl fandom went to war with itself and required high quality work and then a re-spin to get back into full gear.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm just sitting here amused at the thought that people think Legends and For the man who has everything are iconic Jason stories or that Diplomats Son is an iconic story to even begin with and Knightfall & Contagion/Legacy + NML are iconic Tim stories, reaching much folks? I guess Superman, Mongul, Bane, Cass, Batman, Ra's and JPV got lost somewhere during the conversation. NML in particular isn't even a story, just a collection of stories and I for one cant even think about any noteworthy Tim tale from that collection


Now, now, if the subject ended up being about Jason somewhat, why would not mentioning the other characters make said material any less worthwhile mentions for their catalogues? After all, the stories you mention do happen to be iconic/worthwhiles for Bane, Superman and Mongul. 




> Standing in the background and being indistinguishable/interchangeable  doesn't equal iconic, a lot of reaching going on around here.I guess Dick should add Court of Owls to his collection of iconic stories


Sure, go ahead. It`s not like he`s had that many in recent years that kind of revolve around him that pop up in arguments. It`s the one story sans Titans where he takes a center role that`s been adapted outside printing. 




> All in all the other Robins lift from Dick, *Jason lifts the most* and Damian the least with Tim in the middle but they do lift.


Yeah from the batmobile

----------


## KrustyKid

> All in all the other Robins lift from Dick, Jason lifts the most and Damian the least with Tim in the middle but they do lift.


No wonder they're so in shape :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

Is tim still red robin? His costume says otherwise

----------


## twincast

> Is tim still red robin? His costume says otherwise


It's got a double-R logo instead of a single-R one. Plus, it's been confirmed he's Red Robin. Since it seems like his history as _Robin_ is coming back, Im fine with this. And the costume's great (short cape aside).

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's got a double-R logo instead of a single-R one. Plus, it's been confirmed he's Red Robin. Since it seems like his history as _Robin_ is coming back, Im fine with this. And the costume's great (short cape aside).


Yes, the cape could certainly use a couple inches.

----------


## Sardorim

Hate the Rebirth look.

Especially when Damian is still Robin and they're wearing the same colors.

Tim cannot catch a break.

----------


## godisawesome

Still better than the Nightwing lite costume the New 52 started out with. At least now we can expect fewer covers where it looks like Tim's trying to attack people by flying at them crotch-first.

----------


## Super-Cyke

> Hate the Rebirth look.


At first I was taken back by how much it looks like the classic Drake Robin costume, but once that wore off, I really wish they had taken him back to either his more unique Robin costume



(he's called Red Robin, the above costume is perfect for that)

Or his Red Robin costume








> Still better than the Nightwing lite costume the New 52 started out with.


That one evolved into something pretty special.  I loved the spiky gauntlets hinting at his time as Batman and if I remember right they brought back the finger stripes, but yeah in the beginning, it looked hideous with the humongous red symbol all over the chest

----------


## phantom1592

has there been a clear picture of the new one yet? I only saw a tiny fuzzy picture in a group shot...

----------


## twincast

I know I'm repeating myself here, but not my fault people keep bringing it up.  :Stick Out Tongue: 



> At first I was taken back by how much it looks like the classic Drake Robin costume, but once that wore off, I really wish they had taken him back to either his more unique Robin costume


I hate this costume with a passion. The only good thing about him getting kicked out of the Robin mantle was him leaving this abysmal design behind.

It's hard enough to make a predominantly red costume look good that I wonder why anyone would even try their hand at such when there's no (historical) need for it, and this piece of crap's composition with its heavy blobs of black fails spectacularly (unlike the Young Justice cartoon's take on the concept). There's absolutely nothing cool or badass about it. Hell, it's the only costume of his that doesn't look even the slightest bit armored, to boot! Talk about a downgrade for the sake of much-belated cartoon synergy. I'd rather see him continue wearing that stupid feather suit Lobdell insisted on.




> (he's called Red Robin, the above costume is perfect for that)


People keep saying this. Doesn't make it any less categorically false.

"Red Robin" is - just like "Robin Redbreast" - nothing but a poetic tautology refering to the exact same handful of species as plain old "Robin" and "Redbreast" alone, i.e. small birds with *red breasts* (originally these). Which is part of why "Red Robin" is an awful way to distinguish yourself from another superhero called "Robin". (Well, most of the Australian birds nowadays commonly called "Robin" don't even have any red at all, but that doesn't really matter for this discussion.)

I'd wager Kingdom Come's Dick Grayson used "Red Robin" to make clear that his costume was fully inspired by the birds (in fact, it looks pretty much exactly like a male American robin in human form) with all design elements originally taken from "Robin Hood" eliminated.

Don't take your biology lessons from a fast food chain's mascot!




> Or his Red Robin costume


Its most recent iteration I'd be totally fine with, but I only really care about his costume looking appealing and practical, both of which the Rebirth one does (aside from the uselessly short cape). And so what if it roughly shares most design elements with Damian's current Robin costume? Theirs is far from the only such case.

----------


## twincast

> has there been a clear picture of the new one yet? I only saw a tiny fuzzy picture in a group shot...


http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-934
http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-938

And there's a team image (without Clayface) on a white background floating around as well.

----------


## phantom1592

> I know I'm repeating myself here, but not my fault people keep bringing it up. 
> 
> I hate this costume with a passion. The only good thing about him getting kicked out of the Robin mantle was him leaving this abysmal design behind.
> 
> It's hard enough to make a predominantly red costume look good that I wonder why anyone would even try their hand at such when there's no (historical) need for it, and this piece of crap's composition with its heavy blobs of black fails spectacularly (unlike the Young Justice cartoon's take on the concept). There's absolutely nothing cool or badass about it. Hell, it's the only costume of his that doesn't look even the slightest bit armored, to boot! Talk about a downgrade for the sake of much-belated cartoon synergy. I'd rather see him continue wearing that stupid feather suit Lobdell insisted on.
> .



I'll second that. I hated that costume something fierce. Too much red... too much black.  It was just... ughhh... Admittedly, I'm one of the few people around that DID like the  ORIGINAL Robin costume, especially drawn by people with extreme talent, like Perez. It looked really cool and classic. 

However, the original Tim Drake costume was perfection. Streamlined where it needed streamlining... enhanced where it needed to be enhanced. Every element seemed logical and functional... It is really only one of a handful of redesigns that I truly felt DID improve on the original. 

The OYL costume? That was SUCH a step back. I hated that so very much... 

The Red Robin costume? I kind of liked it when it was drawn by Alex Ross and meant for dick. There was something kind of cool about Grayson growing into 'batman-esque' but still keeping his own thing going... I don't know. It was kind of cool. For Tim? I didn't like it. Bad enough it was from an elseworlds... but it was still a hand-me-down identity. I ALWAYS liked the Tim who was happy being Robin. He did not WANT to fight crime forever... never wanted to be Batman when he got older... was never an heir in training. He was Robin, because there needed to be a Robin. And he was GOOD at being Robin.

----------


## phantom1592

> http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-934
> http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-938
> 
> And there's a team image (without Clayface) on a white background floating around as well.


Well, I can only get a good look from the waist up... but I like what I see. Definitely more classic Tim then nu52 Tim was...  Not sure about the RR logo, very cluttered and messy, but definitely in the right direction.

----------


## twincast

> Well, I can only get a good look from the waist up... but I like what I see. Definitely more classic Tim then nu52 Tim was...  Not sure about the RR logo, very cluttered and messy, but definitely in the right direction.


Went and dug up said other image:
Ce1HmQcWsAAaFtY.jpg
(Tim being taller than Kate bothers me somewhat; they should be switched.)

And I gotta agree an the RR logo.

----------


## phantom1592

> Went and dug up said other image:
> Ce1HmQcWsAAaFtY.jpg
> (Tim being taller than Kate bothers me somewhat; they should be switched.)
> 
> And I gotta agree an the RR logo.


Hmmmm.... kinda getting an Arkham City vibe to in this picture... kind of a 'what if you took Robin's costume.... and made it armor!!  Which i'm not a huge fan of. Seeing the cape now, I see what people were talking about... I KIND of like the short cape. It reminds me of Robin. Dick's cape was always a short one... and it was for the acrobatics to make more sense, so I kind of like it here too... 

I DID like the idea of tim originally getting the long one for protection from fire and cold and what not... but these costumes ceased being practical and functional a long time ago., so I guess this change doesn't bother me. 

I was recently looking at some older cartoons and comics of superman... and was surprised how short his cape used to be. Just above the knee was pretty common for him, and I really liked that look for some reason... Very heroic and classic. Less... dragging in the mud. I keep picturing batman getting his caught in the clock going into the cave...

----------


## twincast

> Hmmmm.... kinda getting an Arkham City vibe to in this picture... kind of a 'what if you took Robin's costume.... and made it armor!!  Which i'm not a huge fan of.


Well, I disagree. It's not like he's in a Nolan batsuit or something; still looks agile, just with sensible protection. And we (and by we I mean mostly me  :Stick Out Tongue: ) were actually talking about the costume quite extensively back when it was first revealed... Searching the thread for Breyfogle is probably the best bet at getting you there quickly.




> Seeing the cape now, I see what people were talking about... I KIND of like the short cape. It reminds me of Robin. Dick's cape was always a short one... and it was for the acrobatics to make more sense, so I kind of like it here too... 
> 
> I DID like the idea of tim originally getting the long one for protection from fire and cold and what not... but these costumes ceased being practical and functional a long time ago., so I guess this change doesn't bother me. 
> 
> I was recently looking at some older cartoons and comics of superman... and was surprised how short his cape used to be. Just above the knee was pretty common for him, and I really liked that look for some reason... Very heroic and classic. Less... dragging in the mud. I keep picturing batman getting his caught in the clock going into the cave...


Hence why you should either follow the more sensible No Capes rule or have one you can actually do something with. With such a short one Tim gets most of the downsides with none of the upsides of wearing a cape. It's really the only thing I actively dislike about the costume, but it isn't a dealbreaker by any means, either.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Went and dug up said other image:
> Ce1HmQcWsAAaFtY.jpg
> (Tim being taller than Kate bothers me somewhat; they should be switched.)
> 
> And I gotta agree an the RR logo.


I'm pretty impressed with the new design. The original, but tweaked just enough to not look dated. I feel like he doesn't even need the "Red" prefix anymore, since his new design actually looks like a Robin costume. From here on, he's just Robin to me.

Also, since Detective Comics is a consistent top seller for DC, especially lately now that sales are so abysmal, there's a chance that Tim will get more exposure in the comics than Damian, who's stuck in 2 lower selling series. He may not be the main Robin, but he could be the one most people read about. Now if only they'd put him in a movie.

----------


## phantom1592

> Well, I disagree. It's not like he's in a Nolan batsuit or something; still looks agile, just with sensible protection. And we (and by we I mean mostly me ) were actually talking about the costume quite extensively back when it was first revealed... Searching the thread for Breyfogle is probably the best bet at getting you there quickly..


I've always been more a fan of the old school Spandex vs. armor. It made the heroes more vulnerable and more human. Puts them into more threat and made their physical acrobatics more important then just having the best gear. 

Also heroes could wear the costume under their clothes... and actually get dressed themselves. I tend to find the armored super bat suits LESS believable. 

But as for the Arkham City comment... I do see a correlation between these.

Ce1HmQcWsAAaFtY.jpg

arkham_city_robin_by_badlydrawnlightning-d3laljy.jpg

actually on second look, even the cape is similar...




> Hence why you should either follow the more sensible No Capes rule or have one you can actually do something with. With such a short one Tim gets most of the downsides with none of the upsides of wearing a cape. It's really the only thing I actively dislike about the costume, but it isn't a dealbreaker by any means, either.


Well, difference of opinion. I don't really like things to be TOO sensible in comics, and I'm a huge fan of capes.

----------


## godisawesome

I'm much more a fan of the cowled Red Robin look for Tim, and I know I've gone over these before:

1. It kind of acts as a shorthand for Tim's reliance on his cranium that he protects it more than Dick and Damian, while still holding to the Gotham vigilante look instead of going full-paramilitary like Jason.

2. It does hearken a bit toward Batman's look, which is appropriate for the Robin who still operates more as Batman's partner and less as his sidekick. Plus, with the right creative team, like FabNic and Marcus To, it manages to still convey a Robin's mischievous nature while giving Tim an appropriately somber look for the Robin who always approached the job with a bit less cockiness than his fellows.

3. Finally, it gives Tim a distinct profile and look, and helps all the Robins  look unique. I hate seeing all four boys given identical domino masks; give Dick the domino, Jason the helmet, Tim the cowl, and Damian the hood. Boom! Suddenly it's a lot easier to immediately identify who's who to the laymen readers, and shows how they aren't all the same.

----------


## Super-Cyke

> I hate this costume with a passion. The only good thing about him getting kicked out of the Robin mantle was him leaving this abysmal design behind.
> 
> It's hard enough to make a predominantly red costume look good that I wonder why anyone would even try their hand at such when there's no (historical) need for it, and this piece of crap's composition with its heavy blobs of black fails spectacularly (unlike the Young Justice cartoon's take on the concept). There's absolutely nothing cool or badass about it. Hell, it's the only costume of his that doesn't look even the slightest bit armored, to boot! Talk about a downgrade for the sake of much-belated cartoon synergy. I'd rather see him continue wearing that stupid feather suit Lobdell insisted on.


I can respect your reasons for not liking it

----------


## oasis1313

I liked the cowled costume for Tim.  Dick grew out of Robin's reds and into Nightwing's blues.  Tim got to grow into a cowl of his own.  Looked less like a clone.

----------


## Sardorim

> Went and dug up said other image:
> Attachment 36110
> (Tim being taller than Kate bothers me somewhat; they should be switched.)
> 
> And I gotta agree an the RR logo.


Man, why is Tim so tall? Cass also seems a bit on the short side.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Man, why is Tim so tall? Cass also seems a bit on the short side.


Maybe they are short?

I'm going to miss the Red Robin New 52 costume. It's really grown on me. It is so absurd.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'll second that. I hated that costume something fierce. Too much red... too much black.  It was just... ughhh... Admittedly, I'm one of the few people around that DID like the  ORIGINAL Robin costume, especially drawn by people with extreme talent, like Perez. It looked really cool and classic. 
> 
> However, the original Tim Drake costume was perfection.


Me too, and i'm happy Tim is back to something very similar to his former one and not the red/black abomination born in the "Batman Adventures" cartoon and then choosen to honor Superboy. 
But most of all I'm happy that green is there, Robin is red, yellow and GREEN.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I liked the cowled costume for Tim.  Dick grew out of Robin's reds and into Nightwing's blues.  Tim got to grow into a cowl of his own.  Looked less like a clone.


Agreed, I too liked the cowl look. Though I will say his suit for Rebirth isn't too bad.

----------


## Super-Cyke

> Me too, and i'm happy Tim is back to something very similar to his former one and not the red/black abomination born in the "Batman Adventures" cartoon and then choosen to honor Superboy. 
> But most of all I'm happy that green is there, Robin is red, yellow and GREEN.


But this goes back to, is Tim Drake suppose to continue being Robin?  Or branch out?  Damian is Robin.  Drake is RR

----------


## twincast

> Also, since Detective Comics is a consistent top seller for DC, especially lately now that sales are so abysmal, there's a chance that Tim will get more exposure in the comics than Damian, who's stuck in 2 lower selling series. He may not be the main Robin, but he could be the one most people read about.


Hmm... good point, actually. I for one am looking forward to Super-Sons, but it definitely sounds unlikely to sell as much as Detective Comics. (And Rebirth's Teen Titans I frankly want to crash and burn. #sorrynotsorry)




> Now if only they'd put him in a movie.


Hear, hear.

Plus [insert obligatory Young Justice revival plea here].




> I've always been more a fan of the old school Spandex vs. armor. It made the heroes more vulnerable and more human. Puts them into more threat and made their physical acrobatics more important then just having the best gear.


Depends on the character as far as I am concerned; the less superhuman, the more protection is called for. The original Robin costume, for instance, is positively suicidal.




> Also heroes could wear the costume under their clothes...


That's hella uncomfortable.




> and actually get dressed themselves.


That's cheap hyperbole.




> But as for the Arkham City comment... I do see a correlation between these.
> 
> Attachment 36110
> 
> Attachment 36112
> 
> actually on second look, even the cape is similar...


And I never disagreed. Like I said, use the handy "search thread" function. And for the most likely ultimate direct source of inspiration, I once again point people here: http://www.1989batman.com/2014/07/ro...im-drakes.html




> I can respect your reasons for not liking it


Fair enough.




> Cass also seems a bit on the short side.


I believe she's younger than she used to be, so that'd be part of it at least.




> But this goes back to, is Tim Drake suppose to continue being Robin?  Or branch out?  Damian is Robin.  Drake is RR


To which I repeat: If you want to branch out from being Robin, you shouldn't call yourself something that includes it.

----------


## Super-Cyke

> To which I repeat: If you want to branch out from being Robin, you shouldn't call yourself something that includes it.


I completely agree with you but I feel the RR name was just DC not coming up with something breaking away from Robin, like Nightwing.  I would LOVE to see them show that Tim went with RR for a reason to stay close to the concept of Robin, even though Damian is now "the Robin".

----------


## phantom1592

> I completely agree with you but I feel the RR name was just DC not coming up with something breaking away from Robin, like Nightwing.  I would LOVE to see them show that Tim went with RR for a reason to stay close to the concept of Robin, even though Damian is now "the Robin".


I suspect he looked at Damian and said "Yeah... I give it 6months and then I'll be back."  :Wink:

----------


## phantom1592

> Depends on the character as far as I am concerned; the less superhuman, the more protection is called for. The original Robin costume, for instance, is positively suicidal.


I like the costumes to be 'realistic' in regards to their abilities. The Batman can take a bullet' concept really took off after the '89 movie. Frank Miller brought it up in DKR, but it was a quick throw away line. The body armor and bulletproof batman really took off after the movie. 

Regardless, those costumes have almost universally sucked in every movie. Batman 90% of the time can't turn his head. George Clooney used to complain that an 8 year old could beat up batman if he actually wore that gear. The fight scenes are always shaky-cam at night... simply because the actors can't move. They look good in still shots on a rooftop... but it isn't practical. 

Meanwhile in the comics, these heroes are doing triple somersaults and martial arts techniques that make Bruce Lee's head spin. 

Someone like Punisher? Who kicks in a door in a haze of bullets? By all means. He needs the armor. Someone with ninja like stealth and described as Olympic level gymnasts? Nope... the armor gets in the way. 





> That's hella uncomfortable.


Very true. But they have it when they need it. If Wayne enterprises gets involved in a hostage situation, Bruce can sneak away to become batman. He shouldn't be carrying a bat suit in a duffle bag wherever he goes... he shouldn't have to run back to the cave or underground bunker or run to the limo's trunk... Those are all dangerous to a secret identity. It's impractical. 






> That's cheap hyperbole.


Not at all. How long do you think it takes to get into those rubber/armored monstrosities? I can guarantee the actors have assistants nearby to help. Heck, even the old school knights had squires to help them don their armor. 

Batman and Robin need to be ready to go when they're needed. They can't afford to take an extra half hour to get dressed once that spotlight hits the sky or once someone pulls a gun on a crowd. 


I still remember an interview I read with Bob Kane. He was talking about how and why Batman was popular. He was created when there almost no superheroes... but he was designed to be the opposite of Superman. He was an alien... he was super strong... and he was bulletproof. Batman on the other hand was a detective and used his brain.... and he was mortal. If he gets stabbed he bleeds, if he gets shot he'll die. 

Super bulletproof Batman and Robin goes against that philosophy. 


Honestly, that was what I loved about the original Tim costume. That red section was Kevlar and it covered his vitals from chest to groin. It was something he could step into, and then tie up.  His hips, arms, shoulders, they were lighter material and allowed maximum movement. It was a great combination between Martial arts/Acrobat ability... and not suicidal. 





> And I never disagreed. Like I said, use the handy "search thread" function. And for the most likely ultimate direct source of inspiration, I once again point people here: http://www.1989batman.com/2014/07/ro...im-drakes.html


I remember that book fondly. I don't see as much similarities between those choices and the new one as you do... but I remember it well. 

I always think back to that book when they introduce a new costume... because there are so many notes in there about what Batman does NOT want... that in the later years they completely go with. No 'multiple batmen suits', make them fear only one. Cape as Bat wings does Not translate to Cape as Feathers... Hood unnecessary, domino mask good enough." Things of that nature.

----------


## byrd156

> I liked the cowled costume for Tim.  Dick grew out of Robin's reds and into Nightwing's blues.  Tim got to grow into a cowl of his own.  Looked less like a clone.


I loved the cowled Red Robin costume, I wish it was still around.

----------


## godisawesome

Marcus To really killed it on the Red Robin series when it came to the cowled costume. The man trimmed the suit down to enough sleek and slick elements to feel like it was a classic spandex costume, but with enough touches of texture to remind you it was armored up a bit. And he had a great skill with proportions and facial expressions that convincingly made Tim look like a late teens, early twenties hero, and a could show you Dick, Tim and Damian on the same page without anyone looking too young or two old.

To and Grummet remain my preferred Tim Drake artists. Who's yours?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Marcus To really killed it on the Red Robin series when it came to the cowled costume. The man trimmed the suit down to enough sleek and slick elements to feel like it was a classic spandex costume, but with enough touches of texture to remind you it was armored up a bit. And he had a great skill with proportions and facial expressions that convincingly made Tim look like a late teens, early twenties hero, and a could show you Dick, Tim and Damian on the same page without anyone looking too young or two old.
> 
> To and Grummet remain my preferred Tim Drake artists. Who's yours?


To and Grummett definitely, and Eddy Barrows might join their ranks soon. His work so far looks pretty great, both the art and the designs. Spoiler has never looked better IMO.

----------


## Aioros22

> Man, why is Tim so tall? Cass also seems a bit on the short side.


Cass _is_ short. 

No idea about how tall Kate is supposed to be, but eh.

----------


## Caivu

> Cass _is_ short. 
> 
> No idea about how tall Kate is supposed to be, but eh.


Five-foot-ten.

----------


## godisawesome

Here's the Eddy Barrows breakdown of Tim's redesign: http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...an-beyond-more

----------


## KrustyKid

I like it more than I thought I would, now that I can see it detail for detail.

----------


## Super-Cyke

> I like it more than I thought I would, now that I can see it detail for detail.


My feelings as well

----------


## Lhynn

So how does rebirth affect Tim exactly?
Anyone what it entails? will he just suddenly remember everything? 
Sounds to me like that would have too many implications.

Hopefully his personality gets restored, the new 52 one they gave him was pure trash.

----------


## Jadeb

Pretty much every decision they made with him was wrong, so I wouldn't mind if they dropped the pretense and just did major retcons.

----------


## Lhynn

Who thought remaking the character from scratch was a good idea? he was a loved and popular character, why even do it?

----------


## godisawesome

Of all the YJ4 in Teen Titans, all of whom had radical changes added to their backgrounds (some to the point of horrible absurdity), Tim had the least changes...but still wound up with a whole new origin, attitude, and archetype for characterization. In effect, the New 52 Tim Drake took what was the Pre-Flashpoint Tim's flaws and surface characteristics (moments of hubris and a maturation into a Nightwing-style solo vigilante) and attempted to make those the core of his portrayal in the New 52 while hammering him into the Nightwing-shaped hole that usually occupied Teen Titans' leader role.

This lead to the arrogant, dull, and rather bland Robin knockoff in a palette swap of the Dicso-Nightwing suit anchored to Teen Titans and that editorial board replacing the maturing Red Robin character who's transitioned pretty flawlessly from one successful solo to another under the Bat-board's care.

And here's my two theories as to why those changes occurred:

1. Scott Lobdell was given either directives or encouragement from editorial to change Tim to account for a number of (in hindsight) wasted and wasteful retcon decisions: (a) making the New 52 Titans the first- and only- team of that name, (b) trying to squeeze 4 male Robins into 5 years, and (c) editorials attempt to purge any traces of Steohanie Brown and Cassandra Cain. (A) required the most immediate retcons and refocused the Tim Drake property into a kind of Teen Titans Exclusive (TM*) character; his main "purpose" in the New 52 was to be "The Robin on the Teen Titans," which encouraged Lobdell to make Tim more generic and to write him as an ensemble-only character, instead of as solo character in an ensemble book (just think of the way Johns changed Superboy when Superboy no longer had a solo to go home to.) (B) was probably the most synergistic, "We've got to make everyone seem young, so this needs to be modified" idea; in which case Tim was the target of oppurtunity as the Robin least affiliated with the Bat books. (C) probably wasn't a catalyst for changing Tim, but no doubt encouraged the changes; considering how important the 90's Batfamily was to Tim's book, in particular Cass and Stephanie (the former as an example of how editorial decisions could be stupid, the latter as an example of an organic outgrowth of the Post-Crisis universe the New 52 was trying to avoid like the plague), everyone knew that shrieked down Batfamily and DCU history hurt both Tim and Dick's backgrounds, but Tim is a lower tier character than Dick, so his history was more vulnerable.

And option 2: Tim had the misfortune to be the center of Scott Lobdell's Teen Titans book, and its as simple as that. Lobdell clearly didn't quite grasp or agree with the fan concensus of what made Tim work long term, and maybe that just meant that Tim wound up changing because Lobdell felt like it. Maybe Lobdell considered doing the other Titans for the #0 issue, but decided to stick with Tim as the only one with a new origin in that issue because he figured Red Robin would sell better. All I know is that Tim wound up still being the most prominent character on a Teen Titans book that Lobdell seemed to try to avoid after the Culling: Lobdell had the far more prestigious and arguably more fun job of the Superman books, and I think there's a very good reason why Lobdell started using script writers like FabNic and jumping in to every crossover he could with the book. Scott Lobdell probably realized that he wasn't going to be able to write Teen Titans to the level he or the fans wanted, and settled for his workmanlike craft from the 90's until the book got canceled.

----------


## Lhynn

So greediness or stupidity and laziness? Those are the two options?
Thanks for the explanation, i kind of want to believe its the second one, but tim hasnt been able to catch a break for so long with different authors im starting to think DC really hates the character.

I somehow doubt Tims situation will be improved in any way in rebirth, if they meant to do this they would have given him his own book. Putting him as a second in command in a book team book will probably do nothing for the character.

----------


## Aahz

> And here's my two theories as to why those changes occurred:
> 
> 1. Scott Lobdell was given either directives or encouragement from editorial to change Tim to account for a number of (in hindsight) wasted and wasteful retcon decisions: (a) making the New 52 Titans the first- and only- team of that name, (b) trying to squeeze 4 male Robins into 5 years, and (c) editorials attempt to purge any traces of Steohanie Brown and Cassandra Cain. (A) required the most immediate retcons and refocused the Tim Drake property into a kind of Teen Titans Exclusive (TM*) character; his main "purpose" in the New 52 was to be "The Robin on the Teen Titans," which encouraged Lobdell to make Tim more generic and to write him as an ensemble-only character, instead of as solo character in an ensemble book (just think of the way Johns changed Superboy when Superboy no longer had a solo to go home to.) (B) was probably the most synergistic, "We've got to make everyone seem young, so this needs to be modified" idea; in which case Tim was the target of oppurtunity as the Robin least affiliated with the Bat books. (C) probably wasn't a catalyst for changing Tim, but no doubt encouraged the changes; considering how important the 90's Batfamily was to Tim's book, in particular Cass and Stephanie (the former as an example of how editorial decisions could be stupid, the latter as an example of an organic outgrowth of the Post-Crisis universe the New 52 was trying to avoid like the plague), everyone knew that shrieked down Batfamily and DCU history hurt both Tim and Dick's backgrounds, but Tim is a lower tier character than Dick, so his history was more vulnerable.
> 
> And option 2: Tim had the misfortune to be the center of Scott Lobdell's Teen Titans book, and its as simple as that. Lobdell clearly didn't quite grasp or agree with the fan concensus of what made Tim work long term, and maybe that just meant that Tim wound up changing because Lobdell felt like it. Maybe Lobdell considered doing the other Titans for the #0 issue, but decided to stick with Tim as the only one with a new origin in that issue because he figured Red Robin would sell better. All I know is that Tim wound up still being the most prominent character on a Teen Titans book that Lobdell seemed to try to avoid after the Culling: Lobdell had the far more prestigious and arguably more fun job of the Superman books, and I think there's a very good reason why Lobdell started using script writers like FabNic and jumping in to every crossover he could with the book. Scott Lobdell probably realized that he wasn't going to be able to write Teen Titans to the level he or the fans wanted, and settled for his workmanlike craft from the 90's until the book got canceled.


I think a huge part of the problem was that some one decided to take away the legeacy aspect of the YJ4 characters. Tim was the only one whi retained it, but it was still drastically played down. Of all the robins he had probaly the least amount of cross overs with the other Batbooks in the frist yrears of the new 52.

----------


## Red obin

> My feelings as well


Ditto! At first i hated it, but it is growing on me.

----------


## Aahz

> 1. Scott Lobdell was given either directives or encouragement from editorial to change Tim to account for a number of (in hindsight) wasted and wasteful retcon decisions: (a) making the New 52 Titans the first- and only- team of that name


In the first issues of TT and RHatO Lobdell iirc still referenced the original Team and Tim beeing Robin, but it was later (partially) edited out in the trades. So it was probably an editorial decision.

----------


## godisawesome

> So greediness or stupidity and laziness? Those are the two options?
> Thanks for the explanation, i kind of want to believe its the second one, but tim hasnt been able to catch a break for so long with different authors im starting to *think DC really hates the character.*
> 
> I somehow doubt Tims situation will be improved in any way in rebirth, if they meant to do this they would have given him his own book. Putting him as a second in command in a book team book will probably do nothing for the character.


Ironically, other fans have complained that Tim must be favored by DC; considering all the crud they gave him, he still wound up as a major part of two books in Teen Titans and Batman Beyond. The scuttlebutt is supposed to be that Tim is actually a well-liked character by Dan Didio himself. I think it's is confirmed that a year or so into the New 52, he jovially asked a comic con crowd if they'd like to see a Tim Drake solo. I think he has supported in upper DC management; they just haven't proved that they know how to hire a good writer for a modern Tim Drake in a few years.




> In the first issues of TT and RHatO Lobdell iirc still referenced the original Team and Tim beeing Robin, but it was later (partially) edited out in the trades. So it was probably an editorial decision.


Not only that, but Lobdell's earliest interviews on Superboy had him saying that Superboy was _captured_ by NOWHERE, not created by them; there's some heavy evidence that Lobdell initially labored under the supposition that most of the TT's history would transfer over even on the character level for at least Tim and Kon. I think TT perfectly encapsulates the problems created by editorial in the New 52; the book started decently, and then editorial demanded that Lobdell's Culling crossover pile in as many teen teams as possible, and started ordering him to start referring to the team as the only TT team, then by the time they got to the #0, they even changed a part of the script without Lobdell's input. The book was sloppily micromanaged to the extent that a guy with a reputation of being a yes-man to editorial couldn't even keep up with their demands in what was supposed to be a filler comic.

----------


## Lhynn

Maybe the problem is that what DC wants for tim and what the fans want for tim is very different? Like theres someone with a very different idea for tim that keeps shoving it in our faces.
Also how realistic would be to have dixon write Tim again?

----------


## josai21

Really want to focus in on this question,

What does rebirth mean for these characters. It's definitely not suddenly remembering the past...how will all this work for Tim?

Imagine him and Steph suddenly remembering the events of the past.

----------


## dominus

> Really want to focus in on this question,
> 
> What does rebirth mean for these characters. It's definitely not suddenly remembering the past...how will all this work for Tim?
> 
> Imagine him and Steph suddenly remembering the events of the past.


They'd have to advance ages as well. Tim and Steph are younger than they were before. He should be 18/19 now, and she should be 19/20.

----------


## phantom1592

> there's some heavy evidence that Lobdell initially labored under the supposition that most of the TT's history would transfer over even on the character level for at least Tim and Kon. .


This is what I hate about massive crossover/reboot/events... There REALLY isn't enough thought put into them. Every time this happens, different writers are thinking different things and nobody knows what management has in mind... 

This kind of crap needs to be thought out BEFORE the books are getting written. The writers and the editor's need to be working together and everyone should be on the same page. 

Not 'Let's throw out a #1 as quick as we can, and worry about #2 later...' 

Ugggghhh...

----------


## godisawesome

In regards to possible Rebirth effects on Tim's history...

The answer I'd most realistically hope for is that Tim's origin is overhauled in some manner, he's made an official former Robin, and then he gets a large mysterious career in that role that can be filled with various adventures.

My ubër-preferred outcome would be some kind of clear painting of his backstory that implied his past is *_very_* similar to his old one; a past where about the only real differences are any direct contradictions. So Steph isn't in his past, but most of the adventures in his old run happened without her.

----------


## Lhynn

Wait, so rebirth only means that their story gets extended?  Why did they even need dr. manhattan for that? they coulda just said "everything that happened, happened".

Rebirth implied that they remembered 10 years of stuff they had forgotten, recovering their memories while leaving the status quo unchanged from new 52.

----------


## godisawesome

It's an inconsistently applied timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly...thing.

Jason's origin has already been modified to reinclude the tires thing, Babs apparently had an Oracle thing going on now, the Titans have rejoined continuity, and Wally just has a weird relationship with the timeline as a whole--just go look at some of the Wally threads on the DC Comics forum and try to decipher how his history now goes.

Tim's history could be up for grabs....or we could still be stuck with Tim the idiot hacker Not Drake.

----------


## Lhynn

Hopefully tim suddenly remembers those lost years, loved ones and relationships. Uses it to improve himself as a hero and start an interesting story.

For example, its clear his parents arent his real parents, not only because of the lack of their last name but because they are nothing like they originally were. They could just handwave this away but itd be interesting if they didnt. who are they? what happened to jack and janet drake? maybe they gave him up for adoption? was this a Kobra scheme?
Who was the stranger he met at the catacombs below paris? he was clearly older than ras al ghul.
the 7 assassins from the council should still be there, maybe they havent met yet, he could take them down separately.

How does all of this affect tim personally? what if i mets arianna again for the first time? How would he feel about his way of acting lately? Tim was seldom arrogant, if anything he was overly cautious and humble.
Hes seen a lot of suffering and destruction on gotham, how would he react before this failure? he would notice that villains spend more time testing heroes than actually furthering their own goals. This cant be good for super hero work. Would he swich to a new and fresh identity free of the burden that being a robin carries? would seem like the most effective way to fight, and he always prefered whatever worked.
Theres a lot of potential for storytelling if he got back his memories instead of merely saying "yeah it happened".

----------


## josai21

> Hopefully tim suddenly remembers those lost years, loved ones and relationships. Uses it to improve himself as a hero and start an interesting story.
> 
> For example, its clear his parents arent his real parents, not only because of the lack of their last name but because they are nothing like they originally were. They could just handwave this away but itd be interesting if they didnt. who are they? what happened to jack and janet drake? maybe they gave him up for adoption? was this a Kobra scheme?
> Who was the stranger he met at the catacombs below paris? he was clearly older than ras al ghul.
> the 7 assassins from the council should still be there, maybe they havent met yet, he could take them down separately.
> 
> How does all of this affect tim personally? what if i mets arianna again for the first time? How would he feel about his way of acting lately? Tim was seldom arrogant, if anything he was overly cautious and humble.
> Hes seen a lot of suffering and destruction on gotham, how would he react before this failure? he would notice that villains spend more time testing heroes than actually furthering their own goals. This cant be good for super hero work. Would he swich to a new and fresh identity free of the burden that being a robin carries? would seem like the most effective way to fight, and he always prefered whatever worked.
> Theres a lot of potential for storytelling if he got back his memories instead of merely saying "yeah it happened".



This is what I would prefer to see happen across the board for characters in DC. It makes things awkward for some, created storytelling opportunities for others. 

Interested to see how it plays out with the Superman storyline if true.

Imagine at first a core group remembering(maybe the flashes and the Titans) as they slowly work to take out Dr. Manhattan.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hopefully tim suddenly remembers those lost years, loved ones and relationships. Uses it to improve himself as a hero and start an interesting story.
> 
> For example, its clear his parents arent his real parents, not only because of the lack of their last name but because they are nothing like they originally were. They could just handwave this away but itd be interesting if they didnt. who are they? what happened to jack and janet drake? maybe they gave him up for adoption? was this a Kobra scheme?
> Who was the stranger he met at the catacombs below paris? he was clearly older than ras al ghul.
> the 7 assassins from the council should still be there, maybe they havent met yet, he could take them down separately.
> 
> How does all of this affect tim personally? what if i mets arianna again for the first time? How would he feel about his way of acting lately? Tim was seldom arrogant, if anything he was overly cautious and humble.
> Hes seen a lot of suffering and destruction on gotham, how would he react before this failure? he would notice that villains spend more time testing heroes than actually furthering their own goals. This cant be good for super hero work. Would he swich to a new and fresh identity free of the burden that being a robin carries? would seem like the most effective way to fight, and he always prefered whatever worked.
> Theres a lot of potential for storytelling if he got back his memories instead of merely saying "yeah it happened".


If Tim ends up regaining lost memories, which wouldn't be a bad idea, it would run the risk of turning him back into the angsty Tim of the Post-IC years. "My parents are dead! Everything I know is a lie!" That kind of crap. A lost memory/secret past storyline would work well for Tim if it was used to emphasize his intelligence and detective skills, with maybe a tiny bit of sadness thrown in for drama. I'd rather see him as an optimistic genius who's intent on getting his life back on track than a whining 90s Peter Parker ripoff who's life is an endless series of tragedies.

----------


## josai21

> If Tim ends up regaining lost memories, which wouldn't be a bad idea, it would run the risk of turning him back into the angsty Tim of the Post-IC years. "My parents are dead! Everything I know is a lie!" That kind of crap. A lost memory/secret past storyline would work well for Tim if it was used to emphasize his intelligence and detective skills, with maybe a tiny bit of sadness thrown in for drama. I'd rather see him as an optimistic genius who's intent on getting his life back on track than a whining 90s Peter Parker ripoff who's life is an endless series of tragedies.


I'm probably in the minority here, but I enjoyed Tims post IC more than pre-IC. Might be a generational thing because that's when I started reading comics. Didn't read his earlier adventures until later.

I like how, despite his tragedy, he was constantly persevering. I feel like at the end of the Red Robin run, we were going to see him mature into a balance between Bruce's darkness and Dick's optimism. 

For awhile it looked like writers were grooming Tim to be Batman, but then Damian Wayne showed up.

----------


## Lhynn

Eh, i never disliked angsty tim, he still got the job done and it almost all of it off screen. He lost connor, jack and steph and it made an opening for ras to tempt him, we got to see him fighting dick both physically and ideologically and it was good.
He lost bruce and we spent less than a page establishing this, and it spawned his adventures across the globe, working with ras al ghoul, crossing lines and doing illegal activities, still very much a hero saving kidnaped kids. Adventures that led him to cross the council of spiders, which led him to bring down the entire league of assassins, and actually facing off against 7 of the deadliest assassins in the entire world, at the same time, while protecting a civilian. And it was one of the best fights ive seen.
Besides, he pretty much grew out of the drama when ras swore to hurt everyone batman ever cared for to ruin his legacy. and actually managed to outsmart him. His red robin run was p. great and a big part of this was the motivation born from the loss.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm probably in the minority here, but I enjoyed Tims post IC more than pre-IC. Might be a generational thing because that's when I started reading comics. Didn't read his earlier adventures until later.
> 
> I like how, despite his tragedy, he was constantly persevering. I feel like at the end of the Red Robin run, we were going to see him mature into a balance between Bruce's darkness and Dick's optimism. 
> 
> For awhile it looked like writers were grooming Tim to be Batman, but then Damian Wayne showed up.


Red Robin was fine, it's the period between that series and IC that I hate. Between his solo series and the godawful Teen Titans comics, that was Tim at his almost worst, not quite as bad as the uninteresting Bat-brat we got in New 52 Teen Titans.

----------


## Lhynn

> Red Robin was fine, it's the period between that series and IC that I hate. Between his solo series and the godawful Teen Titans comics, that was Tim at his almost worst, not quite as bad as the uninteresting Bat-brat we got in New 52 Teen Titans.


Teen titans was awful before new 52. 
Only team book that was good from that generation of heroes was young justice.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Teen titans was awful before new 52. 
> Only team book that was good from that generation of heroes was young justice.


Geoff Johns TT run, while flawed, I think it had consistently good stories. I get that a lot of people hate what Johns did to Kon El and Bart Allen, but I feel like it worked for the more serious tone of his run, as opposed to the lighthearted Young Justice. The best part, Tim didn't suck in it!

----------


## Dataweaver

I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I do not want the “ten stolen years” to be restored.  I want a selective return of the good things from those years, while leaving the bad stuff in the past.  In Tim's case, that means leaving out everything from Bill Willingham's run onward, and trying to get back to the clever but humble Tim who knows what he can't do, and then figures out a way to do it anyway because he has to.  He should be the kid who sought out Batman, not because he wanted to become Robin, but because he wanted to _help_.  

Let the parents from TT#0 be Tim's real parents; just dial back on the “we're holding you back” stuff.  In fact, what would _really_ go a long way to salvaging the mess that Tim has become in the N52 would be to bring them out of the Witness Protection Program and back into Tim's life.  Ever since 2011, Tim has been “Red Robin” 24/7, even when he's been in civvies.  _That's_ the thing from his missing years that Tim needs to get back: his family.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I do not want the “ten stolen years” to be restored.  I want a selective return of the good things from those years, while leaving the bad stuff in the past.  In Tim's case, that means leaving out everything from Bill Willingham's run onward, and trying to get back to the clever but humble Tim who knows what he can't do, and then figures out a way to do it anyway because he has to.  He should be the kid who sought out Batman, not because he wanted to become Robin, but because he wanted to _help_.  
> 
> Let the parents from TT#0 be Tim's real parents; just dial back on the “we're holding you back” stuff.  In fact, what would _really_ go a long way to salvaging the mess that Tim has become in the N52 would be to bring them out of the Witness Protection Program and back into Tim's life.  Ever since 2011, Tim has been “Red Robin” 24/7, even when he's been in civvies.  _That's_ the thing from his missing years that Tim needs to get back: his family.


I like this post.

----------


## Lhynn

> I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I do not want the “ten stolen years” to be restored.  I want a selective return of the good things from those years, while leaving the bad stuff in the past.  In Tim's case, that means leaving out everything from Bill Willingham's run onward, and trying to get back to the clever but humble Tim who knows what he can't do, and then figures out a way to do it anyway because he has to.  He should be the kid who sought out Batman, not because he wanted to become Robin, but because he wanted to _help_.  
> 
> Let the parents from TT#0 be Tim's real parents; just dial back on the “we're holding you back” stuff.  In fact, what would _really_ go a long way to salvaging the mess that Tim has become in the N52 would be to bring them out of the Witness Protection Program and back into Tim's life.  Ever since 2011, Tim has been “Red Robin” 24/7, even when he's been in civvies.  _That's_ the thing from his missing years that Tim needs to get back: his family.


I would tend to agree, but i think robin from 168 to almost all red robin (leaving aside issues 18-22, those sucked) were great.
Him taking on shiva, controlling gotham gangs, travelling around the world, working with ras, taking down the league, the whole deal with lynx and tam, manipulating captain boomerang. These were some of his best moments, and they came from a place of weakness, tragedy and loneliness.

----------


## phantom1592

> Geoff Johns TT run, while flawed, I think it had consistently good stories. I get that a lot of people hate what Johns did to Kon El and Bart Allen, but I feel like it worked for the more serious tone of his run, as opposed to the lighthearted Young Justice. The best part, Tim didn't suck in it!


Agreed. I really hated Solo Superboy... Impulse... and by extension Young Justice. Johns' TT was REALLY one of my favorite incarnations... pre-Infinite Crisis. It fell apart after that, but I really enjoyed it before that. Tim not sucking was extra awesome. I always enjoy it when he's competent. Working with Batman usually makes him second fiddle or 'just Robin'... but when he's with TT... he's 'Trained by the BATMAN!' Totally different perspectives. 






> Ever since 2011, Tim has been “Red Robin” 24/7, even when he's been in civvies.  _That's_ the thing from his missing years that Tim needs to get back: his family.


That's something that's missing from MOST heroes it seems... I've always been a firm believer that the supporting cast is what makes the hero interesting. Not sure I'd support bringing back a 'family'... but definitely friends and girlfriends... I always loved that we got to see Tim in school with his D&D buddies and Russian girlfriend. 

I'm not sure what happened to them... but I always disliked Spoiler. I love it when the hero is trying to blend with normal heroes. If heroes only date heroes, and are friends with heroes... then they seem very detached and unrelatable. That civilian life was something that separated Tim from Dick or Jason... and now Damian. They never had much life outside the mask.

----------


## godisawesome

> I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I do not want the ten stolen years to be restored.  I want a selective return of the good things from those years, while leaving the bad stuff in the past.  In Tim's case, that means leaving out everything from Bill Willingham's run onward, and trying to get back to the clever but humble Tim who knows what he can't do, and then figures out a way to do it anyway because he has to.  He should be the kid who sought out Batman, not because he wanted to become Robin, but because he wanted to _help_.  
> 
> Let the parents from TT#0 be Tim's real parents; just dial back on the we're holding you back stuff.  In fact, what would _really_ go a long way to salvaging the mess that Tim has become in the N52 would be to bring them out of the Witness Protection Program and back into Tim's life.  Ever since 2011, Tim has been Red Robin 24/7, even when he's been in civvies.  _That's_ the thing from his missing years that Tim needs to get back: his family.


You see, here's my take on how you can use some of Lobdell's origin to make Tim's Rebirth persona better:

-Keep Penguin as the Bat-villain of his origin; he's actually a well-made enemy for Tim, as the villain who plays it cautiously and intelligently.
-Add in a professional relationship with Jason's Robin as a backdrop for Tim's investment in the family and early detective work; Jason has a small network of Internet hacker allies, and Tim's one of them.
-Tim's Mom is the one being antagonized by the Penguin; the Penguin targets them because of some legal issue, so Tim gets Jason and Bruce to get his family to safety, in the Witness Protection Agency.
-After Jason's death, Tim surmises who Bruce and Dick are using Robin's disappearance and Jason's official death to make the connection, and comes up with more ancillary information using the Internet (think of Dick's acrobatics on YouTube).
-Tim then becomes Robin, not Red Robin, partially to cover up Jason's death, and goes through a great deal of the same training events he went through in the old continuity, in particular the Hong Kong-King Snake-Lady Shiva adventure.



> I would tend to agree, but i think robin from 168 to almost all red robin (leaving aside issues 18-22, those sucked) were great.
> Him taking on shiva, controlling gotham gangs, travelling around the world, working with ras, taking down the league, the whole deal with lynx and tam, manipulating captain boomerang. These were some of his best moments, and they came from a place of weakness, tragedy and loneliness.


Now, you see, that's my favorite part of Tim's old continuity too; Nicieza was one of the few writers capable of copying Dixon's mastery of the character and his interactions, but wrote modern arcs, which I love. And he managed to successfully make all the editorial tortures heaped on Tim feel like character development and yet still had Tim interacting with civilians all the time, even chewing down on burgers with Ives.

Plus, there's a part of me that really wants to see Tim reopen his conflict with the Council of Spiders, Lynx and the Golden Dragons (who should be some off shoot of his old enemies the Ghost Dragons), and Ra's Al Ghul. To me, Red Robin was going strong even under a time crunch from Flashpoint, and was of much higher quality than any of Tim's New 52 appearances.

----------


## K. Jones

> You see, here's my take on how you can use some of Lobdell's origin to make Tim's Rebirth persona better:
> 
> -Keep Penguin as the Bat-villain of his origin; he's actually a well-made enemy for Tim, as the villain who plays it cautiously and intelligently.
> -Add in a professional relationship with Jason's Robin as a backdrop for Tim's investment in the family and early detective work; Jason has a small network of Internet hacker allies, and Tim's one of them.
> -Tim's Mom is the one being antagonized by the Penguin; the Penguin targets them because of some legal issue, so Tim gets Jason and Bruce to get his family to safety, in the Witness Protection Agency.
> -After Jason's death, Tim surmises who Bruce and Dick are using Robin's disappearance and Jason's official death to make the connection, and comes up with more ancillary information using the Internet (think of Dick's acrobatics on YouTube).
> -Tim then becomes Robin, not Red Robin, partially to cover up Jason's death, and goes through a great deal of the same training events he went through in the old continuity, in particular the Hong Kong-King Snake-Lady Shiva adventure.
> 
> Now, you see, that's my favorite part of Tim's old continuity too; Nicieza was one of the few writers capable of copying Dixon's mastery of the character and his interactions, but wrote modern arcs, which I love. And he managed to successfully make all the editorial tortures heaped on Tim feel like character development and yet still had Tim interacting with civilians all the time, even chewing down on burgers with Ives.
> ...


Red Robin from beginning to end was a really good run of comics.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Agreed. I really hated Solo Superboy... Impulse... and by extension Young Justice. Johns' TT was REALLY one of my favorite incarnations... pre-Infinite Crisis. It fell apart after that, but I really enjoyed it before that. Tim not sucking was extra awesome. I always enjoy it when he's competent. Working with Batman usually makes him second fiddle or 'just Robin'... but when he's with TT... he's 'Trained by the BATMAN!' Totally different perspectives. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's something that's missing from MOST heroes it seems... I've always been a firm believer that the supporting cast is what makes the hero interesting. Not sure I'd support bringing back a 'family'... but definitely friends and girlfriends... I always loved that we got to see Tim in school with his D&D buddies and Russian girlfriend. 
> 
> I'm not sure what happened to them... but I always disliked Spoiler. I love it when the hero is trying to blend with normal heroes. If heroes only date heroes, and are friends with heroes... then they seem very detached and unrelatable. That civilian life was something that separated Tim from Dick or Jason... and now Damian. They never had much life outside the mask.


I miss Ariana.  :Frown: 

But yeah Never liked Spoiler. Something about that character irked. I'm okay with heroes dating heroes but I would like to see more of Tim's civilian life. The only Tim civilian life we saw was him chilling with Miguel or doing the deed with Cassie a couple of times. We didn't get to see much.

----------


## Lhynn

Tim drake girls: Ariana, zoanne, darla, tam, lynx I 
Robin/Red Robin girls: Stephanie, Speedy, Ravager, Secret, Lynx II
Plenty more from elseworlds, alternative time lines or from new 52. 

From that list steph is probably the one i like the least for tim.

----------


## SicariiDC

> I miss Ariana. 
> 
> But yeah Never liked Spoiler. Something about that character irked. I'm okay with heroes dating heroes but I would like to see more of Tim's civilian life. The only Tim civilian life we saw was him chilling with Miguel or doing the deed with Cassie a couple of times. We didn't get to see much.


Ariana>>>>>>
Been saying this. That Robin time was cool as hell. I'm still partial to Tim because i came on to bat books with him being robin

----------


## Lhynn

Most interesting relationships would have been with lynx II, Shiva and Tam. Also would have liked to see more of darla before her death.

----------


## godisawesome

I really liked Tam and Lynx II; the former was an excellent example for he civilian love interest, and the latter was a great play on the classic "I have a weird romantic tension with a Cat-themed villain" thing. And they played to Tim's then evolution into a twist on the global adventurer trope.

Speaking of Lynx II, someone needs to make a parody comic of just how many people fit the LI-but-also-antagonist with a cat theme. It could be its own little club: you'd have Batman (Catwoman), Red Robin (Lynxes), Arsenal (Cheshire), Robin (Catgirl), Huntress (Catman), and I'm sure there's a few more DC examples...

----------


## Lhynn

Ive said it before, but i dont like Steph as the definitive tim girl, hes about the worst of the bunch as a couple. I do like her as a character tho.

I also think tims feels the exact same way.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Most interesting relationships would have been with lynx II, Shiva and Tam. Also would have liked to see more of darla before her death.


Yeah I liked Tam and I liked Ariana and as most people know I like Cassie Sandsmark with Tim.

Steph is just something about her. Tim is better with a civilian or a more powerful character

----------


## Lhynn

> Yeah I liked Tam and I liked Ariana and as most people know I like Cassie Sandsmark with Tim.


Cassie was with kon, and they made a good couple. The only reason a lot of people wanted to see tim with cassie was due to the batman/wonderwoman thing. Tim and cassie made for good friends tho.
I always thought Tim and Shiva would make for a very interesting pair. They always have great interactions, in which shiva ends up losing funnily enough. He beat her at his 14s, his 15 (here he actually killed her), and his 17s. And at his 16s he kept her from killing connor. If that woman ever had a weakness its been him.




> Steph is just something about her. Tim is better with a civilian or a more powerful character


Steph is just a complicated character. She wants to be a hero but didnt quite have what it takes and she got killed due to this. But the thing is, she kept doing it because she simply didnt see the danger. She got addicted to that life and was willing to live it to its last consequences, without actually thinking about those consequences. At the end of the day she just needed to grow up.
As batgirl she worked because barbara made it work, she trained her and gave her guidance and thanks to this she made for a great hero. And thanks to that she finally matured and managed to become the hero she always wanted to be. All this is missing from the current steph. Shes been hit as hard by new 52.
Useless, generic and boring. Hopefully this changes, but im not sure the writer from detective comics is up to snuff.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Most interesting relationships would have been with lynx II, Shiva and Tam.


“and”? I don't think Tim could handle that…

----------


## Aahz

> -Add in a professional relationship with Jason's Robin as a backdrop for Tim's investment in the family and early detective work; Jason has a small network of Internet hacker allies, and Tim's one of them.


Doesn't really fit Jason, who is allways portrait as kind of a loner. Dick or Barbara would be more fitting imo.

Btw. I allways thought it would be fun if Tim would have been on that Masquerade Ball where Barbara first became Batgirl, but this doesn't really fit in the pre flashpoint continuity.

----------


## godisawesome

No, but him now having watched a YouTube video and hypothesizing that Babs is Batgirl could work...

Update: In fact, that might be a fun way to update Tim's entire investigation; make it an example of Tim seeing through all the Batfamily's smokescreen and identity coverage by applying classic deduction in spite of them.

"Okay, so I followed the money, and Bruce Wayne seems to have no way to have actually spent the money to outfit Batman...but he's still the most applicable candidate with Batman's size, possible motivation, and resources."

"Okay, Dick Grayson has three instances of being saved by a Robin, seemingly eliminating him from being that vigilante, but all occurred in a late two month period and he pulled off the exact same aerial maneuver Robin did in this security cam footage when he was a kid."

"Jason Todd was also rescued by a Robin, but showed up at his school with bruised knuckles after what was supposed to be a 'field trip to France' at the exact same time that Robin and Nightwing with the Teen Titans and the hypothesized 'New' Robin wailed on a bad guy till his gloves broke."

"Barbara Gordon was invited to a costume party for the Commisioner, and was one of four people who apparently didn't attend but matched the perception of an athletic girl beating people up as Batgirl. Then, a year later, celebrity news broke that Barabara was dating Dick Grayson, even though they had no previous connection...at the same time that Robin and Batgirl teamed up to take on Poison Ivy."

"Robin has been absent for two months, with a grainy video from Eastern Europe showing what could be a dead Robin. And there's this report that Jason Todd has died from a car wreck. Bruce Wayne seems emotionally distraught, and Batman put four more people in the hospital than usual."

----------


## Aahz

> "Barbara Gordon was invited to a costume party for the Commisioner, and was one of four people who apparently didn't attend but matched the perception of an athletic girl beating people up as Batgirl. Then, a year later, celebrity news broke that Barabara was dating Dick Grayson, even though they had no previous connection...at the same time that Robin and Batgirl teamed up to take on Poison Ivy."


The problem is that the costume party origin isn't canon anymore in the new 52.

Pre flashpoint, when Tim had super rich parents, on the other hand it would have been plausible for him to on the same high society events Bruce and Dick were attending, and give him quite a good opportunity to see them in action (high society events have a pretty high chance to get attacked by Supervillains when Bruce is present). And allow to retcon him in into a few more classic stories apart from Dicks origin ( like "The Million Dollar Debut of Batgirl").
That would imo make for a better story then discovering their identities by watching TV or with computers.

----------


## Lhynn

> “and”? I don't think Tim could handle that…


One of the greatest detectives of our time. hed manage.

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, that hit me thinking:

Exactly how many of Tim's love interests and close personal female friends or somewhat flirtatious female enemies have fought him or otherwise inflicted violence upon him?

'Cause Steph hit him with a brick, Lynx and he fought before and after they started making out, Shiva played with his hormones while teaching him to fight by kicking his butt, Promise and Prudence both shot at him, he and Jubilee were opponents for DC vs Marvel, Darla tried to vaporize him...

Y'know, for being more of a chick magnet than a ladykiller, Tim seems to attract a lot of dangerous women.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Okay, that hit me thinking:
> 
> Exactly how many of Tim's love interests and close personal female friends or somewhat flirtatious female enemies have fought him or otherwise inflicted violence upon him?
> 
> 'Cause Steph hit him with a brick, Lynx and he fought before and after they started making out, Shiva played with his hormones while teaching him to fight by kicking his butt, Promise and Prudence both shot at him, he and Jubilee were opponents for DC vs Marvel, Darla tried to vaporize him...
> 
> Y'know, for being more of a chick magnet than a ladykiller, Tim seems to attract a lot of dangerous women.


Ladies love the Red Robin:Yummmm. Sorry, I had to. You're certainly right though.

----------


## Lhynn

> Okay, that hit me thinking:
> 
> Exactly how many of Tim's love interests and close personal female friends or somewhat flirtatious female enemies have fought him or otherwise inflicted violence upon him?
> 
> 'Cause Steph hit him with a brick, Lynx and he fought before and after they started making out, Shiva played with his hormones while teaching him to fight by kicking his butt, Promise and Prudence both shot at him, he and Jubilee were opponents for DC vs Marvel, Darla tried to vaporize him...
> 
> Y'know, for being more of a chick magnet than a ladykiller, Tim seems to attract a lot of dangerous women.


Secret became evil and tim had to talk her down, cant remember if they fought, i think they did. Cassandra almost killed him on at least 2 occasions, and certainly hinted at loving him, or at least being attracted to him, which is why he wanted to recruit him when one year later. 
But yeah, he tends to lower his guard around girls, and that tends to leave him bruised more often than not.

Man, i really miss the old tim. Hopefully he gets his memories back.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Okay, that hit me thinking:
> 
> Exactly how many of Tim's love interests and close personal female friends or somewhat flirtatious female enemies have fought him or otherwise inflicted violence upon him?
> 
> 'Cause Steph hit him with a brick, Lynx and he fought before and after they started making out, Shiva played with his hormones while teaching him to fight by kicking his butt, Promise and Prudence both shot at him, he and Jubilee were opponents for DC vs Marvel, Darla tried to vaporize him...
> 
> Y'know, for being more of a chick magnet than a ladykiller, Tim seems to attract a lot of dangerous women.


Catwoman attacked him at least once, although they weren't lovers. Well, Selina wasn't. Every teenage boy loves Catwoman! Weren't Tim and Rose Wilson briefly an item in the awful Post-Infinite Crisis Teen Titans run, or at least flirted?

----------


## Aahz

> Weren't Tim and Rose Wilson briefly an item in the awful Post-Infinite Crisis Teen Titans run, or at least flirted?


IIRC a naked and drunk Rose showed up in his bed to seduce him, but Tim wasn't really interested.

----------


## Vinsanity

> IIRC a naked and drunk Rose showed up in his bed to seduce him, but Tim wasn't really interested.


Yeah and he didn't make things better but cuffing her. Remember Kid Devil was like "Woah"

----------


## Sardorim

Cassandra also was a problem in Year One I believe. Sure she was drugged up but she did propose that he rule at her side. Seemed obsessed with Tim.

There's also Ravager as well.

----------


## Lhynn



----------


## twincast

Lynx - Spare me. She's no Selina to Tim's Bruce.Shiva - I could see her "turning him into a man", but imagine the outrage...Ariana - I liked her, but at the end they clearly weren't compatible anymore.Helena - Nope.Steph - She's _at the very least_ his first great epic love. Deal with it.Greta - A cute crush, but it was clearly completely one-sided.Cissie - Kiss came out of nowhere and thankfully wasn't picked up on.Darla - Cute little tragic interlude. I don't remember; have they actually ever met again after her death?Cass - Why? Just because she was Batgirl? And don't remind me of the Beechenian horrors. No. Just no.Cassie - Stop forcing this into existence already. Seriously. They have no romantic - or sexual - chemistry whatsoever. Just like Dick and Donna. And (main continuity) Bruce and Diana.Rose - Just stay away from the craycray.Lynx II - Now _she_ was finally a new official love interest I could get behind.Pru - Eh, just one more tough chick drawn to him.Tam - They were great buddies. I wouldn't want to change how they played off each other.unnamed Daughter of Acheron - Yuck.Babs - Fuck you, Rocksteady. Fuck you very, very much.

----------


## godisawesome

> 


To be honest, this scene still plays mostly as just a hilarious, long set up joke by Peter David that played in nicely with Tim's very not-Dick Grayson portrayal. Superboy keeps hitting on Arrowette, Impulse actually knows her from before hand, and quiet, strictly professional Tim Drake gets the kiss. It really must be the cape.

And speaking of Babs and Tim in Arkham Knight, I'm not alone in believing that Rocksteady's writing team just got the Robins mixed up, am I? Because Babs has the Flying Grayson's necklace and the timeline that Arkham Knight and its DLC wound up creating really doesn't make sense either in game or in pre-Arkham Knight series history, what with Tim being a new-ish Robin in City and yet being Batgirl's partner in her DLC, or in the way they just kind of treat him as a super-bland Robin instead of trying to define him as anything different from Dick Grayson.

----------


## twincast

> And speaking of Babs and Tim in Arkham Knight, I'm not alone in believing that Rocksteady's writing team just got the Robins mixed up, am I? Because Babs has the Flying Grayson's necklace and the timeline that Arkham Knight and its DLC wound up creating really doesn't make sense either in game or in pre-Arkham Knight series history, what with Tim being a new-ish Robin in City and yet being Batgirl's partner in her DLC, or in the way they just kind of treat him as a super-bland Robin instead of trying to define him as anything different from Dick Grayson.


Not to mention the tie-in comics.

But yeah, it's pretty obvious _somebody_ - most likely the hack of a lead writer they replaced Dini with - mixed 'em up, and by the time they inevitably realised their mistake, it was either already too late into production, or they simply didn't give a shit. Or both. (Or maybe they never ever gave a damn to begin with.)

Although one also shouldn't forget that Arkham Origins suddenly established an incompatible five-year timeline despite the Arkhamverse thitherto (and thenceforth) clearly being based on the pre-Damian DCU (with some DCAU elements and, of course, some twists of its own).

----------


## K. Jones

> Lynx - Spare me. She's no Selina to Tim's Bruce.Shiva - I could see her "turning him into a man", but imagine the outrage...Ariana - I liked her, but at the end they clearly weren't compatible anymore.Helena - Nope.Steph - She's _at the very least_ his first great epic love. Deal with it.Greta - A cute crush, but it was clearly completely one-sided.Cissie - Kiss came out of nowhere and thankfully wasn't picked up on.Darla - Cute little tragic interlude. I don't remember; have they actually ever met again after her death?Cass - Why? Just because she was Batgirl? And don't remind me of the Beechenian horrors. No. Just no.Cassie - Stop forcing this into existence already. Seriously. They have no romantic - or sexual - chemistry whatsoever. Just like Dick and Donna. And (main continuity) Bruce and Diana.Rose - Just stay away from the craycray.Lynx II - Now _she_ was finally a new official love interest I could get behind.Pru - Eh, just one more tough chick drawn to him.Tam - They were great buddies. I wouldn't want to change how they played off each other.unnamed Daughter of Acheron - Yuck.Babs - Fuck you, Rocksteady. Fuck you very, very much.


I liked Lynx II a lot. And I liked Tam, too. What was I on about ... oh the Daughter of Acheron thing who was all tied in with the Scarabs and assassins 'testing' Tim or whatever - wasn't she a previous permutation of "Essence", who we ended up getting a new take on in Red Hood and the Outlaws? Anyway, better her for Jason than for Tim, any day.

Key thing just like any other character is to design supporting or villainous or antiheroic or friendly rival characters for Tim that reflect him, his history, his traits, and his character, just like why Catwoman is such a good foil for Batman, Lois for Clark, yadda yadda. Someone who challenges his upper middle class upbringing and his kind of "prodigy" detective skills is the way to go, really. Ironically this is something that based purely on her Wiki details, Harper Row would have done. She's very poor, her folks weren't the most supportive, and yet she's this talented technician. We're of course talking Harper Row before she got Snake-Eyes'ed and her history was determined to be another lame Chosen One storyline. Early Harper, who was just this electrician girl constantly trying to help Batman - Tim's partner - by getting in the way, and who was attending Wayne functions just to pocket rich people food from the tables.

----------


## Atlanta96

> To be honest, this scene still plays mostly as just a hilarious, long set up joke by Peter David that played in nicely with Tim's very not-Dick Grayson portrayal. Superboy keeps hitting on Arrowette, Impulse actually knows her from before hand, and quiet, strictly professional Tim Drake gets the kiss. It really must be the cape.
> 
> And speaking of Babs and Tim in Arkham Knight, I'm not alone in believing that Rocksteady's writing team just got the Robins mixed up, am I? Because Babs has the Flying Grayson's necklace and the timeline that Arkham Knight and its DLC wound up creating really doesn't make sense either in game or in pre-Arkham Knight series history, what with Tim being a new-ish Robin in City and yet being Batgirl's partner in her DLC, or in the way they just kind of treat him as a super-bland Robin instead of trying to define him as anything different from Dick Grayson.


I don't think the writers are stupid enough to get them mixed up, especially since a quick google search would have corrected the mistake. I think the cringe-inducingly stupid Tim/Babs romance was intentional. There may have been some plot points that didn't make it into the game that would have made the decision slightly more understandable, but the story was changed and the romance was left in despite having no buildup or context. It would have been stupid no matter what, but it might have originally had some context that was cut from the game to make room for other plot points.

----------


## twincast

I had totally forgotten Essence. She at the very least looks and feels like a possible reinterpretation of said character, yeah.

As for Harper Row: I liked her a lot in her early appearances as well, whereas I have little good to say about both the Bluebird persona and her connection to Mother. To be honest - especially post-Eternals - of the Rows, I'd see Cullen as the much better foil for Tim, even disregarding my personal bias of wanting to see him branch out into the male sex in his romantic pursuits.

----------


## Lhynn

> see him branch out into the male sex in his romantic pursuits.


Ew. Please.
People need to stop suggesting this.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Lynx - Spare me. She's no Selina to Tim's Bruce.Shiva - I could see her "turning him into a man", but imagine the outrage...*Ariana - I liked her, but at the end they clearly weren't compatible anymore.*Helena - Nope.Steph - She's _at the very least_ his first great epic love. *Deal with it*.Greta - A cute crush, but it was clearly completely one-sided.Cissie - *Kiss came out of nowhere and thankfully wasn't picked up on.*Darla - Cute little tragic interlude. I don't remember; have they actually ever met again after her death?Cass - Why? Just because she was Batgirl? And don't remind me of the Beechenian horrors. No. Just no.Cassie - *Stop forcing this into existence already. Seriously. They have no romantic - or sexual - chemistry whatsoever. Just like Dick and Donna. And (main continuity) Bruce and Diana.*Rose - Just stay away from the craycray.Lynx II - Now _she_ was finally a new official love interest I could get behind.Pru - Eh, just one more tough chick drawn to him.Tam - They were great buddies. I wouldn't want to change how they played off each other.unnamed Daughter of Acheron - Yuck.Babs - Fuck you, Rocksteady. Fuck you very, very much.



To all the bolds

1. They were compatible until it was decide that people had to die.
2. No.
3. Thought it was cute. Could have been a cute couple.
4. Disagree majorly. 


But I do agree with the Cass Cain thing. It comes off icky maybe because she's kind of like his sister.

----------


## Aahz

> But I do agree with the Cass Cain thing. It comes off icky maybe because she's kind of like his sister.


Not really. Apart from the short time in Blüdhaven. They hardly worked together (apart from the big team ups) or even lived together.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Yeah Tim and Cass only started working together in earnest just before Cassandra's book got the axe. They only got close after they were stripped off their primary mantles and by then it was too late.

----------


## Lhynn

> But I do agree with the Cass Cain thing. It comes off icky maybe because she's kind of like his sister.


Actually it was kind of implied that they may end up together. It was also explored in a comic too.

The chemistry was there mostly in one year later, when she was a crazy psycho, and when it ended up being him saving her from all that. And later on when she became black bat and he asked for her help. So dunno, maybe it was decided theyd be an item down the line. 
The first serious relationship tim had was with arianna, in fact it got so serious that they cut it off before it went even further.
Not that i care for this kind of relationships much, i think it works better for the character having a flavor of the week girl, keeping it interesting. Hes too young and its supposed to be the fun part of his life, and with steph half of it was good, but the other half of it was a nightmare.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. in Titans of Tomorrow Tim ended up with Bette Kane, which was also kind of strange, since she was historically Dick first love interest that was around for more than one issue.

@Lhynn
From which comic is that scan?

----------


## The Odd Man

Has Tim Drake ever uttered the phrase: "When the red, red robin comes bob, bob, bobbin' along"?

----------


## Lhynn

> @Lhynn
> From which comic is that scan?


Damion Scotts (the creator of cass actually) solo series #10. 15 years into the future bruce disappears and tim takes his place. In the context it really makes sense, as they are adults and really compliment eachother, both in skillset and personality.

----------


## twincast

Speaking of Tam, I just looked her up on Wikia... By his Noodliness, what have they done to her and Tiffany?!  :Mad:  One more reason to despise the New 52.

----------


## Lhynn

> Speaking of Tam, I just looked her up on Wikia... By his Noodliness, what have they done to her and Tiffany?!  One more reason to despise the New 52.


They have made her the oldest sister now, for some reason. Other than that, it reminds me of her "Foxy Lady" persona on the Unternet.

----------


## twincast

Just felt like skimming through solicit texts of his Robin ongoing series on Comixology... I had totally forgotten about Zoanne! Which about sums her up perfectly.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## twincast

> They have made her the oldest sister now, for some reason. Other than that, it reminds me of her "Foxy Lady" persona on the Unternet.


Her relative age is a silly change but not a problem per se; Tiffany's absolute age, however, very much is for _her_ character. What pisses me off about Tam herself is that unless her entry isn't up to date (which is certainly possible, considering she isn't an important character) she was reduced to an insane catatonic vegetable and left as such. Classy, DC. Real classy.

----------


## Lhynn

> Her relative age is a silly change but not a problem per se; Tiffany's absolute age, however, very much is for _her_ character. What pisses me off about Tam herself is that unless her entry isn't up to date (which is certainly possible, considering she isn't an important character) she was reduced to an insane catatonic vegetable and left as such. Classy, DC. Real classy.


"We have to make Luke more interesting! Quick, tragedy hits his family, this should help!" "good work guys, we really earned our paychecks with this!"

----------


## Sardorim

> Lynx - Spare me. She's no Selina to Tim's Bruce.Shiva - I could see her "turning him into a man", but imagine the outrage...Ariana - I liked her, but at the end they clearly weren't compatible anymore.Helena - Nope.Steph - She's _at the very least_ his first great epic love. Deal with it.Greta - A cute crush, but it was clearly completely one-sided.Cissie - Kiss came out of nowhere and thankfully wasn't picked up on.Darla - Cute little tragic interlude. I don't remember; have they actually ever met again after her death?Cass - Why? Just because she was Batgirl? And don't remind me of the Beechenian horrors. No. Just no.Cassie - Stop forcing this into existence already. Seriously. They have no romantic - or sexual - chemistry whatsoever. Just like Dick and Donna. And (main continuity) Bruce and Diana.Rose - Just stay away from the craycray.Lynx II - Now _she_ was finally a new official love interest I could get behind.Pru - Eh, just one more tough chick drawn to him.Tam - They were great buddies. I wouldn't want to change how they played off each other.unnamed Daughter of Acheron - Yuck.Babs - Fuck you, Rocksteady. Fuck you very, very much.


Hey, Cassandra wasn't always Batgirl and she did become Black Bat before New 52. There's no denying that there was "something" there but it wasn't acted upon.

Well, Cassie has either Conner or Tim and oddly enough Tim is more popular with her even though, unlike Conner, Tim has plenty of other love interests.

----------


## Rac7d*

when did tim get Stephanie pregnant

----------


## Vinsanity

> when did tim get Stephanie pregnant


That never happened. She was pregnant around the same time as when Tim was close to her.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Hey, Cassandra wasn't always Batgirl and she did become Black Bat before New 52. There's no denying that there was "something" there but it wasn't acted upon.
> 
> Well, Cassie has either Conner or Tim and oddly enough Tim is more popular with her even though, unlike Conner, Tim has plenty of other love interests.


Connor and Cassie imo were written great in YJ as a crush thing/couple thing whatever. TT was too heavy handed on the drama and the stuff after it but anyway Cassie and Tim actually happened both Pre-Flashpoint and post. So I guess that's why it is popular. I always liked it because it just clicked for me. Everyone has a different taste, so whatever. 

Yeah Tam wasn't done well in New 52. But what are you gonna do.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That never happened. She was pregnant around the same time as when Tim was close to her.


IS've been reading Dixon run of night wing and he said spoiler is pregnant. Also on another note Tim looks like such a child next to night wing but he gotta be what 15 right, and Dick isn't the tallest guy around either

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Connor and Cassie imo were written great in YJ as a crush thing/couple thing whatever. TT was too heavy handed on the drama and the stuff after it but anyway Cassie and Tim actually happened both Pre-Flashpoint and post. So I guess that's why it is popular. I always liked it because it just clicked for me. Everyone has a different taste, so whatever. 
> 
> Yeah Tam wasn't done well in New 52. But what are you gonna do.


I'll admit my distaste for it is purely based around how much I liked Kon/Cassie in YJ, and the whole "getting with your dead best friend's girlfriend" thing. At the time I didn't mind it as a one time thing, since thats a realistic thing that could happen to two friends who are in a really emotionally raw place.

@Rac

What he means is that Spoiler was not pregnant from Tim, but from some other guy.

----------


## Sardorim

That's true.

Now Spoiler has no kid.

Awkward if she remembers pre-52 and how she's no longer a mother.

----------


## godisawesome

> I'll admit my distaste for it is purely based around how much I liked Kon/Cassie in YJ, and the whole "getting with your dead best friend's girlfriend" thing. At the time I didn't mind it as a one time thing, since thats a realistic thing that could happen to two friends who are in a really emotionally raw place.
> 
> @Rac
> 
> What he means is that Spoiler was not pregnant from Tim, but from some other guy.


I too dislike the Cassie/Tim pairing, for two reasons: 1) my original favorite character was Kon-El and my favorite teen book was Young Justice, so the Tim and Cassie thing always seemed like a pale grab at drama, and 2) it's never been handled well, since it was soap opera crap pre-Flashpoint, an out-of-nowhere thing on the YJ cartoon, and incompetently mishandled in New 52.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> That's true.
> 
> Now Spoiler has no kid.
> 
> Awkward if she remembers pre-52 and how she's no longer a mother.


It would be a bit of a hit, but she gave it up for adoption pre 52

----------


## Lhynn

Itd be even wierder if he was introduced as a 12 year old kid that wasnt affected by dr. Manhattan history delety thingy for some reason.

----------


## twincast

> *I'll admit my distaste for it is purely based around how much I liked Kon/Cassie in YJ, and the whole "getting with your dead best friend's girlfriend" thing.* At the time I didn't mind it as a one time thing, since thats a realistic thing that could happen to two friends who are in a really emotionally raw place.





> I too dislike the Cassie/Tim pairing, for two reasons: 1) my original favorite character was Kon-El and *my favorite teen book was Young Justice, so the Tim and Cassie thing always seemed like a pale grab at drama, and 2) it's never been handled well, since it was soap opera crap pre-Flashpoint, an out-of-nowhere thing on the YJ cartoon, and incompetently mishandled in New 52.*


This.




> Itd be even wierder if he was introduced as a 12 year old kid that wasnt affected by dr. Manhattan history delety thingy for some reason.


Well, the shortened careers affected characters differently: While Bruce etc. became much younger than they used to be, Tim etc. stayed roughly the same age but started later in life (whereas Dick etc. got nipped on both ends), so the kid would still be about two or so.

----------


## godisawesome

Say was anybody else thrilled to see Tim used the bo-staff in 'Tec this week? 'Cause I'm still just so thrilled we didn't see him trying to attack someone with his crotch again, like he did in the winged suit.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Say was anybody else thrilled to see Tim used the bo-staff in 'Tec this week? 'Cause I'm still just so thrilled we didn't see him trying to attack someone with his crotch again, like he did in the winged suit.


Heck yes, and the casual intro "Heads up" was fantastic.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> That never happened. She was pregnant around the same time as when Tim was close to her.


They dropped the ball on that storyline. It would have been way ballsier and in-line with how good that Dixon run was going had they made Tim, the father.

----------


## twincast

> They dropped the ball on that storyline. It would have been way ballsier and in-line with how good that Dixon run was going had they made Tim, the father.


LOL, as if Dixon would have ever had Tim engage in the evils of teenage sex.

----------


## Lhynn

> LOL, as if Dixon would have ever had Tim engage in the evils of teenage sex.


Ballsier how? other than being very stupid and irresponsible of tim and consequently very out of character. And no, the story was more interesting because tim didnt need to get involved and he did.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Ballsier how? other than being very stupid and irresponsible of tim and consequently very out of character. And no, the story was more interesting because tim didnt need to get involved and he did.


Agreed. Also serious props for Dixon (a political conservative in the 90s) for handling that story the way he did.

----------


## twincast

> Ballsier how? other than being very stupid and irresponsible of tim and consequently very out of character. And no, the story was more interesting because tim didnt need to get involved and he did.


A) You're quoting the wrong guy.
B) I agree with the letter of your post but suspect I disagree with the spirit of it.




> Agreed. Also serious props for Dixon (a political conservative in the 90s) for handling that story the way he did.


Why? Because he didn't go out of his way to shame her extra hard? Its/his message was still not "At least use protection/contraceptives!" but an irresponsible moralist-idealist "Don't ever, ever, _ever_ have sex!" - unless my memory's utterly failing me, that is; in which case I'd apologize. As much as I love his work on the Batbooks in general, that storyline was a serious (preachy) lowlight.

----------


## Lhynn

> A) You're quoting the wrong guy.


Yer right.




> B) I agree with the letter of your post but suspect I disagree with the spirit of it.


probably, we seem to disagree fairly often.

----------


## josai21

> A) You're quoting the wrong guy.
> B) I agree with the letter of your post but suspect I disagree with the spirit of it.
> 
> 
> Why? Because he didn't go out of his way to shame her extra hard? Its/his message was still not "At least use protection/contraceptives!" but an irresponsible moralist-idealist "Don't ever, ever, _ever_ have sex!" - unless my memory's utterly failing me, that is; in which case I'd apologize. As much as I love his work on the Batbooks in general, that storyline was a serious (preachy) lowlight.


I don't feel like it was preachy just because it showed the potential consequences of premarital sex. Steph's story of teen pregnancy and the fallout from that was quite common in the 90s. Unlike Step though, many girls didn't have a hero to come help them.

I felt like it was more of a heroic aspect and role to Tim's character than simply being a superhero. How many teen guys are capable of loving a pregnant girl and helping her to make the best possible decision. Not many.

----------


## JediKage

I still think tim needs a new name. Red Robin doesn't do it for me. Makes me think of the Diner every time

----------


## Lhynn

> I still think tim needs a new name. Red Robin doesn't do it for me. Makes me think of the Diner every time


Well, i live in a country where branding has taken over the life of its citizens, and we dont have red robin restaurants here either. But yeah, its a stupid name on its own right.

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, bit of hypothetical question here. If Tim's Rebirth look ends up being only temporary, as part of fixer-upper done to his character after the effects of the New 52 Teen Titans, how do you see his future costume situation, particularly in regards to these areas:

Head: Do you guys see a cowl, domino mask, half mask, helmet, bare face, what? I'm a cowl man myself; I think it fits him and gives him a unique profile.

Cape: Do you see a flat-base cape, scallops, wings, trench coat? I'd go with scallops on a cape, though o have thought of a kind of armored wings design, as much as I hate the New 52 version.

Color scheme: Black, red, and gold? Or green red, and gold? Etc. I actually think a red, black and silver combo would work nicely.

----------


## The Whovian

I don't think Tim's costume is going to change anytime soon. This is what his look is going to be like for the foreseeable future.

----------


## Jadeb

I like Tim's hair exposed. Looks more like Tim and less like mini-Batman.

Agree that the new costume should stick for a while.

----------


## phantom1592

> I like Tim's hair exposed. Looks more like Tim and less like mini-Batman.
> 
> Agree that the new costume should stick for a while.


I would agree with that. That spikey haircut was one of the things that was 'iconic' Tim and first separated him from  Dick and Jason visually. It's how I usually think about him.,

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'll admit my distaste for it is purely based around how much I liked Kon/Cassie in YJ, and the whole "getting with your dead best friend's girlfriend" thing. At the time I didn't mind it as a one time thing, since thats a realistic thing that could happen to two friends who are in a really emotionally raw place.
> 
> @Rac
> 
> What he means is that Spoiler was not pregnant from Tim, but from some other guy.





> I too dislike the Cassie/Tim pairing, for two reasons: 1) my original favorite character was Kon-El and my favorite teen book was Young Justice, so the Tim and Cassie thing always seemed like a pale grab at drama, and 2) it's never been handled well, since it was soap opera crap pre-Flashpoint, an out-of-nowhere thing on the YJ cartoon, and incompetently mishandled in New 52.


That's completely fair. While I prefer Cassie and Tim, I can see where you're coming from.

Also it felt weird to me how Tim took a bit too much interest in Steph's pregnancy but whatever that's the 90's, it was all about safe sex and stuff back then, I guess?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I would agree with that. That spikey haircut was one of the things that was 'iconic' Tim and first separated him from  Dick and Jason visually. It's how I usually think about him.,


I know I'm in the minority, but I liked the cowl. However, it needs to be drawn with expressive spidey like eyes, like how Marcus To did it. 

I think it could use some tweaking maybe, but Marcus To's updated RR costume is probably my favorite of all of Tim's costumes.

----------


## dominus

> That's true.
> 
> Now Spoiler has no kid.
> 
> Awkward if she remembers pre-52 and how she's no longer a mother.



The problem with the characters remembering the pre-52 era is that they changed most of the Bat-family's physical ages, making them all younger and compressing the timelines *way* too much.

----------


## Lhynn

> The problem with the characters remembering the pre-52 era is that they changed most of the Bat-family's physical ages, making them all younger and compressing the timelines *way* too much.


That would ring true for p. much every character in DC. Wally is worse off than any batfam member.

----------


## godisawesome

> I don't think Tim's costume is going to change anytime soon. This is what his look is going to be like for the foreseeable future.


I don't think it will change _soon_ either, but to me, it's got the air of something that will inevitably be changed. I think of the team that is now deployed on 'Tec all kind of have a mini-mission for Tynion of being shored up for bigger things. Batwoman needs a steady big name book to regroup her fanbase for an inevitable relaunch, Cass and Steph need to get reestablished properly after being stupidly shoved off to limbo, and Tim...Tim actually needs some image rehabilitation, but strikes me as a character who's course correction is designed to still develope him past the Robin role.

New 52 Teen Titans seems to have unofficially been declared a failure even by DC themselves; the YJ4 have all but vanished save the heavily repackaged Tim, and the two Titans books being launched in Rebirth seem deliberately contrary to what formed the core of the misconducted Teen Titans in New 52. Tim's been taken back to basics, but it seems at least visually to be an archetype occupied by Damian. The Red Robin identity, while generally mocked for its name, was still accepted and pretty strong before the New 52, and I think DC wants Tim to be an evolved vigil mate like Nightwing, but know that they messed up and need to reassert the character's core traits.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

I like the New 52 costume, but I think it needs some color reworking to add a little more gold undercutting the red and black.

----------


## godisawesome

Oh what the heck, here's a modification I made to an old Marcus To cover as to what direction I'd like to see his costume going into the future.
image.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Oh what the heck, here's a modification I made to an old Marcus To cover as to what direction I'd like to see his costume going into the future.
> image.jpg


That series had a pretty cool title logo. I still prefer Tim with exposed hair but otherwise that was a pretty great design.

Also, I'm about 90% sure that the next wave of Rebirth titles will give us another Tim Drake solo book. Yeah he's been treated like sh*t throughout the New 52, but he has consistently appeared in different series, and TPTB might still see some potential in him. So hopefully that's what DT will lead into. 

I know I should still prepare for the worst with DC, but they brought Wally West back, so I'm comfortable getting my hopes up a little from here on.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That series had a pretty cool title logo. I still prefer Tim with exposed hair but otherwise that was a pretty great design.
> 
> Also, I'm about 90% sure that the next wave of Rebirth titles will give us another Tim Drake solo book. Yeah he's been treated like sh*t throughout the New 52, but he has consistently appeared in different series, and TPTB might still see some potential in him. So hopefully that's what DT will lead into. 
> 
> I know I should still prepare for the worst with DC, but they brought Wally West back, so I'm comfortable getting my hopes up a little from here on.


I could also see him shipped in a book starring him along with Steph and Cass.

----------


## godisawesome

The hastily written Batgirl Convergence book that featured the three did manage to outsell any DC Convergence book not associated with Batman or the single Superman Cimvergence book...

I think Tim has an honest chance at getting a solo if he gets repaired by 'Tec; some other people complain that he's only still around  top editorial guys like Didio like him. It is rather noticeable that Tim's the only Robin who thus far has not been scheduled to die at some point; Steph, Damian, and Jason all officially kicked the bucket, and Geoff Johns had to talk Didio out fo killing Dick at least one (Infinite Crisis) and maybe again for Forever Evil.

----------


## SXVA

> I still think tim needs a new name. Red Robin doesn't do it for me. Makes me think of the Diner every time


Agreed. I don't like the name Red Robin.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Agreed. I don't like the name Red Robin.


Hawkman. Ayyyy

----------


## KrustyKid

> The hastily written Batgirl Convergence book that featured the three did manage to outsell any DC Convergence book not associated with Batman or the single Superman Cimvergence book...


I was not aware of that.

----------


## Caivu

I like how Tim defies Kate in the previews for 'Tec #935, especially how it's not overly dramatic. This is exactly the kind of conflict that I wanted to see in this title early on.

----------


## Rac7d*

So does Batman think Tim needs more training, as a future hero of gotham, has he not shown his mettle throughout the previous storylines. Duke should be the one here.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I like how Tim defies Kate in the previews for 'Tec #935, especially how it's not overly dramatic. This is exactly the kind of conflict that I wanted to see in this title early on.


This is something I agree with

----------


## Atlanta96

> So does Batman think Tim needs more training, as a future hero of gotham, has he not shown his mettle throughout the previous storylines. Duke should be the one here.


Despite that making perfect sense, there's a good reason Duke isn't the one here. DC editorial didn't want it that way.

To be fair I think that, at the moment, 'Tec is the best place for Tim to be. After the nightmare for his character that was the past 5 years, he might need to stay in a supporting role for a while to get his character back on track. Then he can branch out into starring roles again.

Also, James Tynion is a huge Tim fan, claiming it's his all time favorite character even. So in terms of being portrayed well, he's in pretty good hands.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Despite that making perfect sense, there's a good reason Duke isn't the one here. DC editorial didn't want it that way.
> 
> To be fair I think that, at the moment, 'Tec is the best place for Tim to be. After the nightmare for his character that was the past 5 years, he might need to stay in a supporting role for a while to get his character back on track. Then he can branch out into starring roles again.
> 
> Also, James Tynion is a huge Tim fan, claiming it's his all time favorite character even. So in terms of being portrayed well, he's in pretty good hands.


But isnt it insulting afte the las 5 yar of arcs, despite him being a robin for what i guess could be no more then 6 months with batman he has been a leading gotham figure more so then batwoman

----------


## Caivu

> But isnt it insulting afte the las 5 yar of arcs, despite him being a robin for what i guess could be no more then 6 months with batman he has been a leading gotham figure more so then batwoman


Why would it be insulting?

----------


## Atlanta96

> But isnt it insulting afte the las 5 yar of arcs, despite him being a robin for what i guess could be no more then 6 months with batman he has been a leading gotham figure more so then batwoman


It depends on how he's written in 'Tec. If he's consistently subservient to Batwoman and portrayed as less competent than she is, it will be insulting. If he can hold his own against her and challenge her authority sometimes, I won't complain.

----------


## The Whovian

> It depends on how he's written in 'Tec. If he's consistently subservient to Batwoman and portrayed as less competent than she is, it will be insulting. If he can hold his own against her and challenge her authority sometimes, I won't complain.


Same here. I want to see him as her equal, but deferring to her sometimes is okay.

----------


## Lhynn

I just read new 52 nightwing 00. Whats up with shiva being so close to dicks development? Thats tims thing.

----------


## godisawesome

I could be wrong, but I think most of the Shiva stuff was the result of editorial wanting to introduce their new variation on Shiva. Tom DeFalco cowrote the #0 issue, and was solo on the arc that followed it. Higgins kind of got a break right about then, and the story goes that Shiva's new, weaponized ponytail design originally belonged to an all-new character. This was right around the time the initial freedom of the New 52 started to get choked by the first major editorial dictations; this was when all those origins that didn't need changes started getting changed (like Tim's) and when the first few writers to leave books because of editorial decrees happened.

----------


## Lhynn

Seems like editorial micromanaging really hurt a lot of publications in the new 52.

----------


## Caivu

Yeah, I'm currently writing a respect thread for New 52 Shiva, and she's a joke compared to her old self. Dick was able to land some shots on her even when he had broken ribs, and Harley shot her in the ass, just to name a couple examples. She has very few feats and is rather unimpressive so far.

----------


## Lhynn

> Yeah, I'm currently writing a respect thread for New 52 Shiva, and she's a joke compared to her old self. Dick was able to land some shots on her even when he had broken ribs, and Harley shot her in the ass, just to name a couple examples. She has very few feats and is rather unimpressive so far.


Thats just sad, shiva became a victim of the worf effect i guess.

----------


## Caivu

> Thats just sad, shiva became a victim of the worf effect i guess.


I suppose so, yeah. I haven't gotten to her stuff in RHatO or Batgirl yet, but from what I've seen she has only won (or done reasonably well) against higher level combatants like Batman and Nightwing because they were impaired in some way. She's also much more reliant on weapons than before. When she got shot by Harley she was in the middle of quasi-gloating. A bit similar to current Cass, actually, but that conversation would be going even more off-topic.

----------


## Lhynn

Dont really think shiva as off-topic in a tim thread, two of his most defining moments are closely tied to her.

----------


## Caivu

> Dont really think shiva as off-topic in a tim thread, two of his most defining moments are closely tied to her.


I guess. She's supposed to show up in the third arc of 'Tec, and I really don't know how that'll go. On the one hand, a challenge for the characters is always a good thing, but she's just so unimpressive now that I don't see how she could handle everyone alone without some shenanigans going on.

----------


## Lhynn

Yeah, i know what you mean. Shiva is supposed to be insanely good. It should have been years before showing anyone being a match to her in a fight. New 52 heroes are supposed to be inexperienced and all that. She used to be a certainty.

Her only real defining characterstic was her proving that she was the best, bar none. And she backed up that claim. Great rogue all around, one that both provided a lot of insight into the heroes she encountered and that made them stronger merely by tangling with them.

----------


## godisawesome

Preferably, Shiva shows up without her stupid ponytail, and maybe even makes a reference to having trained Tim a bit in the past? Her appearance could be the catalyst for the first changes in Tim's history. I'd like it to be established he has some major skills, but is still on the lower end of the Batfamily's fighting abilities.

----------


## Caivu

> Preferably, Shiva shows up without her stupid ponytail, and maybe even makes a reference to having trained Tim a bit in the past? Her appearance could be the catalyst for the first changes in Tim's history. I'd like it to be established he has some major skills, but is still on the lower end of the Batfamily's fighting abilities.


Alternatively, since this Shiva is so lackluster, Tim could blurt out something like "I knew Shiva, and you're nothing compared to her," and then  be like "wait, what did I just say?" This Shiva hasn't yet been referred to as Sandra Woosan AFAIK, so it could be a different person entirely, just using the title, even though the reason she's apparently going to be in 'Tec is because she's after Cass.

----------


## Lhynn

> Preferably, Shiva shows up without her stupid ponytail, and maybe even makes a reference to having trained Tim a bit in the past? Her appearance could be the catalyst for the first changes in Tim's history. I'd like it to be established he has some major skills, but is still on the lower end of the Batfamily's fighting abilities.


He is actually a very good martial artist, hes just not even close to being the best. Also something thats sort of been established is that Tim hits very hard, like, abnormally hard.

Bruce = Cass (shes probably stronger than bruce but unno, hasnt been stablished yet) = Kate? (i dont know, people tell me shes formidable, havent read her stuff but her trainingg seems below mook league assassin standard) > Dick > Tim > Jean Paul > Barbara > Jason (dont really buy this, but its his words, not mine) > Demian > Selina > Duke = Harper = Steph.

----------


## Caivu

> He is actually a very good martial artist, hes just not even close to being the best. Also something thats sort of been established is that Tim hits very hard, like, abnormally hard.
> 
> Bruce = Cass (shes probably stronger than bruce but unno, hasnt been stablished yet) = Kate? (i dont know, people tell me shes formidable, havent read her stuff but her training seems below mook league assassin standard) > Dick > Tim > Azrael > Barbara > Jason (dont really buy this, but its his words, not mine) > Demian > Selina > Duke = Harper = Steph.


If we're going just based on what's been shown on-panel (based on everything I've seen), I think the order on the whole would go:

Bruce=Dick>Jason=Azrael>Kate=Cass=Damian>Tim=Babs>  Selina>Steph>Duke=Harper. 

It needs to be said that the skill spectrum from Bruce to Babs, at least, is not very wide. All those characters are not wildly out of each other's skill range.
Cass is an interesting case because she just hasn't had enough time to show off her skills yet, so despite what Bruce says much of that hasn't been displayed yet, and like new Shiva a lot of her successes so far have had mitigating factors to them.

I'm interested in seeing what current LoA training looks like now! Do you have some examples/issues?

----------


## The Whovian

> He is actually a very good martial artist, hes just not even close to being the best. Also something thats sort of been established is that Tim hits very hard, like, abnormally hard.
> 
> Bruce = Cass (shes probably stronger than bruce but unno, hasnt been stablished yet)


Cass is not stronger than Bruce

----------


## phantom1592

> He is actually a very good martial artist, hes just not even close to being the best. Also something thats sort of been established is that Tim hits very hard, like, abnormally hard.
> 
> Bruce = Cass (shes probably stronger than bruce but unno, hasnt been stablished yet) = Kate? (i dont know, people tell me shes formidable, havent read her stuff but her trainingg seems below mook league assassin standard) > Dick > Tim > Jean Paul > Barbara > Jason (dont really buy this, but its his words, not mine) > Demian > Selina > Duke = Harper = Steph.


This... actually looks pretty good listing to me. It's hard to say what kind of off panel training and practice they got.... But Tim was in charge of working on Jean Paul's training, and Bruce absolutely refused to let Tim in the field until he was better trained then Jason. Those were distinctive plot points. Hence the whole Shiva/Robin 1 Miniseries... So bare bones, those lists look pretty good. At least as far as Selina-Steph go, I'm not sure where they'd be at. 

But he had the very best trainers... and then years of on-panel experience to back it up. Tim is a lot more then just 'the computer guy'.

----------


## The Whovian

> If we're going just based on what's been shown on-panel (based on everything I've seen), I think the order on the whole would go:
> 
> Bruce=Dick>Jason=Azrael>Kate=Cass=Damian>Tim=Babs>  Selina>Steph>Duke=Harper.


I wouldn't complain about that, but mine would be:

Bruce > Dick > Cass > Jason = Tim = Damian > Kate = Babs = Steph = Harper = Selina = Azrael > Duke

----------


## The Whovian

Of course, if we were to go by pre-flashpoint rankings, Cass would be > than all of them.

----------


## Caivu

> I wouldn't complain about that, but mine would be:
> 
> Bruce > Dick > Cass > Jason = Tim = Damian > Kate = Babs = Steph = Harper = Selina = Azrael > Duke



Yeah, Azrael was a weird one to place. I gave him high marks for his swords even though he's not been in a lot. I'm not as familiar with Tim and Damian's feats so we can quibble about that, but whatever.
Kate equal to Steph, Harper, and Selina, though? Get outta town!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Of course, if we were to go by pre-flashpoint rankings, Cass would be > than all of them.


Agreed. More like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

----------


## Atlanta96

> He is actually a very good martial artist, hes just not even close to being the best. Also something thats sort of been established is that Tim hits very hard, like, abnormally hard.
> 
> Bruce = Cass (shes probably stronger than bruce but unno, hasnt been stablished yet) = Kate? (i dont know, people tell me shes formidable, havent read her stuff but her trainingg seems below mook league assassin standard) > Dick > Tim > Jean Paul > Barbara > Jason (dont really buy this, but its his words, not mine) > Demian > Selina > Duke = Harper = Steph.


I wouldn't place Kate that high, but otherwise this looks right. Problem is that pet characters like Harper and Duke (Damian to an extent) are sometimes written with unjustified levels of skill that end up making the other characters look incompetent by comparison. Harper has had so little crime fighting experience compared to any of the Robins, but Bruce was still willing to say she was better than any of them. Duke seems to be going in a similar direction. 

Adding new characters to the Bat Family is enough of a problem, but having them make the older characters look bad by comparison makes it even worse. To fix the issues with the current Bat-Fam, I think they should kill off Harper Row, turn Duke into a villain and do a traitor storyline with him, give Batwoman another solo, and give Tim a solo and/or new Young Justice series and possibly change his name. I'm not sure what to do with Cass or Steph outside of their role in 'Tec, but they've earned their place in the Bat-books more than Harper and Duke, so they should still have some sort of exposure.

----------


## Caivu

> Problem is that pet characters like Harper and Duke (Damian to an extent) are sometimes written with unjustified levels of skill that end up making the other characters look incompetent by comparison. Harper has had so little crime fighting experience compared to any of the Robins, but Bruce was still willing to say she was better than any of them. Duke seems to be going in a similar direction.


Tell me about it. One of the respect threads I'm working on is for Harper (because why not?) and having to sort out which of her feats are PIS or SvFL is not fun. I mean, it's never fun, but here even less so.

And I agree, Kate's good, but she's _not_ equal to or even second to Bruce in terms of fighting skill.

----------


## phantom1592

> I wouldn't place Kate that high, but otherwise this looks right. Problem is that pet characters like Harper and Duke (Damian to an extent) are sometimes written with unjustified levels of skill that end up making the other characters look incompetent by comparison. Harper has had so little crime fighting experience compared to any of the Robins, but Bruce was still willing to say she was better than any of them. Duke seems to be going in a similar direction. 
> 
> Adding new characters to the Bat Family is enough of a problem, but having them make the older characters look bad by comparison makes it even worse. To fix the issues with the current Bat-Fam, I think they should kill off Harper Row, turn Duke into a villain and do a traitor storyline with him, give Batwoman another solo, and give Tim a solo and/or new Young Justice series and possibly change his name. I'm not sure what to do with Cass or Steph outside of their role in 'Tec, but they've earned their place in the Bat-books more than Harper and Duke, so they should still have some sort of exposure.


Honestly, this is why I hated Cass from the moment she appeared. Some brand new nothing character walks in off the street and is instantly introduced as being better than all the sidekicks... and even Bruce himself?? 

UGggghh... 

Let a new character earn their ranks please...

----------


## phantom1592

> Tell me about it. One of the respect threads I'm working on is for Harper (because why not/) and having to sort out which of her feats are PIS or SvFL is not fun. I mean, it's never fun, but here even less so.


SvFL? 

Not familiar with that one...

----------


## dominus

> Honestly, this is why I hated Cass from the moment she appeared. Some brand new nothing character walks in off the street and is instantly introduced as being better than all the sidekicks... and even Bruce himself?? 
> 
> UGggghh... 
> 
> Let a new character earn their ranks please...


Appeared, or reappeared?

----------


## The Whovian

> Yeah, Azrael was a weird one to place. I gave him high marks for his swords even though he's not been in a lot. I'm not as familiar with Tim and Damian's feats so we can quibble about that, but whatever.
> Kate equal to Steph, Harper, and Selina, though? Get outta town!


Whoops, didn't mean to put Harper there. Meant to put her equal to Duke. But yeah, I would say Kate, Steph and Selina are equal. Can I ask why you don't think so?




> Agreed. More like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Yep  :Big Grin:

----------


## phantom1592

> Appeared, or reappeared?


Originally appeared. Pre-flashpoint. Back when she was mute butt-kicking superassassin that may or may not have actually killed....  her whole thing was 'She's better then everyone else'. 

Ugggh...

----------


## The Whovian

> Honestly, this is why I hated Cass from the moment she appeared. Some brand new nothing character walks in off the street and is instantly introduced as being better than all the sidekicks... and even Bruce himself?? 
> 
> UGggghh... 
> 
> Let a new character earn their ranks please...


Brand new?

----------


## The Whovian

> Originally appeared. Pre-flashpoint. Back when she was mute butt-kicking superassassin that may or may not have actually killed....  her whole thing was 'She's better then everyone else'. 
> 
> Ugggh...


And she proved it by beating Shiva, who's THE best in the DCU. Not to mention all of her other feats.

----------


## phantom1592

> Brand new?


Is this to imply she was around pre-No man's land? I had never seen her before that, and the new mouthless Batgirl suit showed up then... so that's pretty much where I first saw her come in and take over.

----------


## The Whovian

> Tell me about it. One of the respect threads I'm working on is for Harper (because why not/) and having to sort out which of her feats are PIS or SvFL is not fun. I mean, it's never fun, but here even less so.
> 
> And I agree, Kate's good, but she's _not_ equal to or even second to Bruce in terms of fighting skill.


Agreed. The only reason Bruce even asked her to train the group was because of her background in the military and he thought this would help her to train them as a unit.

----------


## The Whovian

> Is this to imply she was around pre-No man's land? I had never seen her before that, and the new mouthless Batgirl suit showed up then... so that's pretty much where I first saw her come in and take over.


Cass has been around for 17 years

----------


## Caivu

> Whoops, didn't mean to put Harper there. Meant to put her equal to Duke. But yeah, I would say Kate, Steph and Selina are equal. Can I ask why you don't think so?


Steph has the least amount of training of any of the Bat-characters besides Duke and Harper (AFAIK, anyway), and has said on-panel that she's physically the weakest of any of them. I know Catwoman said at one point she's a natural, but that only goes so far. Selina I could see having an edge in agility (in fact I'd be astonished if she didn't). I'll admit I'm not familiar with her currently, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think she's a particularly strong or exceptional fighter, just a very competent one.




> SvFL? 
> 
> Not familiar with that one...



Spider-Man vs Fire Lord. It may not be used around here; I got into a spot of trouble over on Rumbles a few days ago for thinking the rules there are the same as other similar forums.

Anyway, it basically means a high-level feat that is a massive outlier for what the character is usually capable of, without a reason. They usually never count when doing battle-y stuff.

----------


## phantom1592

> Cass has been around for 17 years


Ok... then we're on the same page. 17 years ago, she was a brand new character who walked in better then the established people. Not something I'm a fan of. 

If Harper walks up and kicks in Shiva's teeth... I still don't legitimize it because the character didn't really 'earn' her rank through on-panel training and experience. 

YMMV but I never liked Cass for that.

----------


## The Whovian

> Steph has the least amount of training of any of the Bat-characters besides Duke and Harper (AFAIK, anyway), and has said on-panel that she's physically the weakest of any of them. I know Catwoman said at one point she's a natural, but that only goes so far. Selina I could see having an edge in agility (in fact I'd be astonished if she didn't). I'll admit I'm not familiar with her currently, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think she's an exceptional fighter, just a very competent one.


Steph was trained by Bruce, Cass and the BOP. She is definitely Kate's equal.

----------


## Caivu

> Steph was trained by Bruce, Cass and the BOP. She is definitely Kate's equal.


Oh, I was talking about current Steph. If you mean pre-Flashpoint, then yes, I'd agree that they'd be close enough to make no difference.

----------


## The Whovian

> Ok... then we're on the same page. 17 years ago, she was a brand new character who walked in better then the established people. Not something I'm a fan of.


There's a good reason why she was immediately better. She was trained by Cain, the LoA, Alpha and others. Later on, Shiva trained her. But the biggest difference is because, like Shiva, she has the ability to "read" her opponents' body language and know what they're going to do before they even move.

----------


## Lhynn

> If we're going just based on what's been shown on-panel (based on everything I've seen)
> 
> , I think the order on the whole would go:
> 
> Bruce=Dick>Jason=Azrael>Kate=Cass=Damian>Tim=Babs>  Selina>Steph>Duke=Harper.


Azrael is an interesting case, pre 52 he was shown as being stronger than batman, back in the 80s, but batman has grown a lot, and so has tim and the rest, jean paul not so much. This pre flashpoint, new 52 jean paul has been shown being a weak willed quick to anger idiot, and has been dispatched by Tim on a 1 on 1 right before Tim actually destroyed the HQ of the order of saint dumas along with jason, with a carefully coordinated plan, which was in all honesty well thought out. Even in his latest showing azrael was dispatched by a fake batman with a couple tricks.




> It needs to be said that the skill spectrum from Bruce to Babs, at least, is not very wide.


Its actually pretty huge. The gauntlets of enemies batman runs through are pretty insane. I doubt even dick would be able to pull through those.

As for tim, hes gave connor a run for his money, he made trigon retreat (which is hella dumb, but oh well), and he beat azrael easily, then proceeded to save his life and convince him to abandon the order of dumas. Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.




> All those characters are not wildly out of each other's skill range.


I disagree, endurance wise and feats wise or skill wise barbara has absolutely nothing on bruce. We are talking about a girl that knows some karate and a guy thats almost a prodigy and that has learned almost every martial art from the best teaches world around. With Tim is much closer, but he is still stronger, more resistant, better prepared and overall superior in a combat situation.




> Cass is an interesting case because she just hasn't had enough time to show off her skills yet, so despite what Bruce says much of that hasn't been displayed yet, and like new Shiva a lot of her successes so far have had mitigating factors to them.


Sure, i agree. We havent seen enough to give her a firm place, but i doubt she wont be as strong as batman when we do get there.




> I'm interested in seeing what current LoA training looks like now! Do you have some examples/issues?


As far as i can tell, Ras has personal time with each assassin, he both trains them and acts as sort of a counselor for them. They are all handpicked by him and taught some of the deadliest martial arts in the world. This is to instill blind loyalty. Their elite assassins have all their own personal method of killing using the leagues well documented knowledge. Each and every one of Ras elite assassin good enough to put up a fight against a robin. The elite assassins of the previous masters are much stronger and better trained.
A lot of this can be seen in Red Robin, when Tim starts working with the league, some of it with batmans. And i think its basically one of the most indepth views at the LoA inner workings, from the finances to the distribution of bases worldwide to their best assassins methods. We also see some of it during the resurrection of ras al ghul storyline.

Damian is actually the weakest of the robins pre and post new 52, the most inexperienced and the one with the worst judgement in a battle, batmans words (in B&R eternal). He actually sort of gives you a breakdown saying basically that its dick > tim > jason > himself in a very out of character moment probably meant to apologize for showing him oneshoting  both jason and tim at the same time with a single move on robin war (where we also see the robin war kids going toe to toe with elite talons and gaining the upper hand, for extra wtfkery).
Anyway, his character has always been that of the arrogant kid with a big mouth.

----------


## The Whovian

> Oh, I was talking about current Steph. If you mean pre-Flashpoint, then yes, I'd agree that they'd be close enough to make no difference.


Yeah, pre-flashpoint. Although, in the New 52 Steph has been trained by Selina. I know that doesn't make her their equal, but then it gets kind of hard to rank them over minute differences. You're probably right though, New 52 Steph should be ranked lower. I just have a soft spot for her.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I wouldn't complain about that, but mine would be:
> 
> Bruce > Dick > Cass > Jason = Tim = Damian > Kate = Babs = Steph = Harper = Selina = Azrael > Duke


Tim can kick Damian's ass if he wants to. He's done it at least twice. Only reason Damian took out Tim in Robin War was bad writing.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Honestly, this is why I hated Cass from the moment she appeared. Some brand new nothing character walks in off the street and is instantly introduced as being better than all the sidekicks... and even Bruce himself?? 
> 
> UGggghh... 
> 
> Let a new character earn their ranks please...


Agreed, but at least Cass was a distinct character we hadn't really seen before in the Bat-Books, so I still like her. Harper and Duke are redundant knockoffs.

----------


## The Whovian

> Azrael is an interesting case, pre 52 he was shown as being stronger than batman, back in the 80s, but batman has grown a lot, and so has tim and the rest, jean paul not so much. This pre flashpoint, new 52 jean paul has been shown being a weak willed quick to anger idiot, and has been dispatched by Tim on a 1 on 1 right before Tim actually destroyed the HQ of the order of saint dumas along with jason, with a carefully coordinated plan, which was in all honesty well thought out. Even in his latest showing azrael was dispatched by a fake batman with a couple tricks.
> 
> Its actually pretty huge. The gauntlets of enemies batman runs through are pretty insane. I doubt even dick would be able to pull through those.
> 
> As for tim, hes gave connor a run for his money, he made trigon retreat (which is hella dumb, but oh well), and he beat azrael easily, then proceeded to save his life and convince him to abandon the order of dumas. Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.
> 
> 
> I disagree, endurance wise and feats wise or skill wise barbara has absolutely nothing on bruce. We are talking about a girl that knows some karate and a guy thats almost a prodigy and that has learned almost every martial art from the best teaches world around. With Tim is much closer, but he is still stronger, more resistant, better prepared and overall superior in a combat situation.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you've said up until this point below:




> Damian is actually the weakest of the robins pre and post new 52, the most inexperienced and the one with the worst judgement in a battle, batmans words (in B&R eternal). He actually sort of gives you a breakdown saying basically that its dick > tim > jason > himself in a very out of character moment probably meant to apologize for showing him oneshoting  both jason and tim at the same time with a single move on robin war (where we also see the robin war kids going toe to toe with elite talons and gaining the upper hand, for extra wtfkery).
> Anyway, his character has always been that of the arrogant kid with a big mouth.


Damian is VERY skilled. He was not only trained by the LoA, but also by Batman himself. He even stalemated Tim. And I'd rather have Damian watching my back in a fight over Jason. Damian is a natural.

----------


## The Whovian

> Tim can kick Damian's ass if he wants to. He's done it at least twice. Only reason Damian took out Tim in Robin War was bad writing.


I only remember the one time when Tim was Red Robin that he beat Damian out right.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I only remember the one time when Tim was Red Robin that he beat Damian out right.


He did once in the New 52 also. Don't remember where, though. I only saw a scan. But it makes sense that Tim can clean Damians clock when they're on even ground. And after all Damians done to him, writers pretty much owe Tim a victory whenever they fight.

----------


## Lhynn

This was their fight, or the end of it at least, but it was pretty onesided. Hes a 10 year old kid for crying out loud, maybe in 6 years in the continuity well be seeing damian kicking everyones ass, maybe we wont. But his mouth writing checks his skill cant cash is what he is about.
Batman-Zone 016.jpg
(Batman and robin 10, i think damian takes on jason and dick on 11-12, but honestly cant be bothered to check right now)

----------


## The Whovian

This is the previous page to that and Damian pretty much does the same thing to Tim. They're both fairly equal:

----------


## The Whovian

And this shows just how clearly superior he is to Jason, as Damian kicks the snot out of him:

----------


## Lhynn

> This is the previous page to that and Damian pretty much does the same thing to Tim. They're both fairly equal:


Couple of punches and kicks does not an equal match make. Those fights worked more on an ideological level tho. He beat jason there because he had the upper hand psychologically speaking, and he almost does the same with Tim. Both Tim and Jason were caught unprepared by the midget, because he messed with their minds before the fight started, and even during the course of it. But Tim is a lot more clear headed than jason, so he put his thoughts in order and beat him decisively.

B&RD.jpg
Anyway, this kinda shows what i mean.

----------


## SXVA

The whole Damian thing is so annoying. This little kid isn't going to be going around matching very experienced and capable people. Talk about a forced character. That's what turned me against Damian. If it showed him surprising people in more believable ways and having great potential and then we watched him grow into a very capable character that would've been pleasing. Jumping out the gate as some kind of little kid Bruce Lee being able to match just about anyone is downright laughable.

The only redeemable thing to do is make any of those fights fantasies in Damian's mind and spin it as dreaming to be like them when he reaches a more capable and experienced level. And to think he's going to be leading the Teen Ttitans. *SMH*.

----------


## Aahz

> But Tim was in charge of working on Jean Paul's training,


 But Jean Paul is strange case since his skills come from the "System" and not from training.




> and Bruce absolutely refused to let Tim in the field until he was better trained then Jason. Those were distinctive plot points. Hence the whole Shiva/Robin 1 Miniseries... So bare bones, those lists look pretty good. At least as far as Selina-Steph go, I'm not sure where they'd be at. 
> 
> But he had the very best trainers... and then years of on-panel experience to back it up. Tim is a lot more then just 'the computer guy'.


His training with Shiva wasn't very long (he was with her like maybe a week, and they spend most of the time tracking down King Snake, they had on panel like 2 sparing matches), and if you read his early stories, he wasn't that great of an martial artist, he got his ass kicked by Lynx several times, who is hardly a top tier fighter. In one story (in SECRET ORIGINS 80-PAGE GIANT) he even says that he wasn't as talented for the physical stuff as Dick and Jason were and still needs to work on it.




> Even in gotham gang wars and the battle for the cowl tim beat jason handily while holding back, all the while jason was shooting to kill and had to bury a batarang on tims chest to even have a chance and even this development because there needed to be a reason to force dick to intercede and take the mantle. Jason was very poorly trained, because his tenure didnt last long, so he doesnt have much of a fighting style.


Jason had pre flashpoint arround 2 years of training by guys that Talia selected for him, and post flashpoint he got training by the All-Cast and the top guys of the League of Assassins (including Shiva, Bronze Tiger and Chishire). He is a highly trained assassin/fighter (and has talent for fighting), his biggest weakness is his anger who makes him sloppy but at least in his own series he overcame this by now. The problem is just that many writers don't acknowledge it and are constantly mishandling him and write him like he was an unskilled dumb brute, who heavily relies on his guns.




> The whole Damian thing is so annoying. This little kid isn't going to be going around matching very experienced and capable people. Talk about a forced character. That's what turned me against Damian. If it showed him surprising people in more believable ways and having great potential and then we watched him grow into a very capable character that would've been pleasing. Jumping out the gate as some kind of little kid Bruce Lee being able to match just about anyone is downright laughable.


I have to agree, pre flashpoint that was handled better. He was still good back than but often overestimated himself. Know he he seems often even more skilled than Batman.

Thats for example how a "fight" between Damian and Jason looked like pre flashpoint, under morrisons pen. I really hate Morrisons take on Jason, but this seems much more fitting than what we got in the new 52.

----------


## SXVA

Yeah, there's no shame in starting from more in the middle ground of things and taking some defeats as you gain more experience and having some of the more established characters outshine you a bit. If anything that sort of makes the character more likable and relatable.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, there's no shame in starting from more in the middle ground of things and taking some defeats as you gain more experience and having some of the more established characters outshine you a bit. If anything that sort of makes the character more likable and relatable.


Yeah, Streets of Gotham is fore that reason imo one of the best Damian storylines.

And Damian as the by far youngest character in Batfamily doesn't really need these showings to stand out. 
Secenes like this are more damaging Tim and Jason role in the franchise than it is really pushing Damian. I'm still curious how they will handle this in the Teen Titans book, in the last movie they imo pushed Damian again at the expense of Beast Boy, Blue Beetle and Starfire.

----------


## Lhynn

> His training with Shiva wasn't very long (he was with her like maybe a week, and they spend most of the time tracking down King Snake, they had on panel like 2 sparing matches), and if you read his early stories, he wasn't that great of an martial artist, he got his ass kicked by Lynx several times, who is hardly a top tier fighter. In one story (in SECRET ORIGINS 80-PAGE GIANT) he even says that he wasn't as talented for the physical stuff as Dick and Jason were and still needs to work on it.


Correction, he didnt start as a great martial artist, but then again, no one did (except maybe Connor Hawke, dude was a prodigy and a beast). Also yeah, hes not as agile as dick or as strong as jason, tim is an all-rounder. 




> Jason had pre flashpoint arround 2 years of training by guys that Talia selected for him


League mook training, im impressed.




> and post flashpoint he got training by the All-Cast and the top guys of the League of Assassins (including Shiva, Bronze Tiger and Chishire). He is a highly trained assassin/fighter (and has talent for fighting), his biggest weakness is his anger who makes him sloppy but at least in his own series he overcame this by now. The problem is just that many writers don't acknowledge it and are constantly mishandling him and write him like he was an unskilled dumb brute, who heavily relies on his guns.


He is actually a great marksman. Hes just not as good as the other more experienced robins in a fight. And all those names still dont come close to showing the results in training others that bruce has. Only one as impressive as bruce when it comes to training others would probably be david cain.

----------


## Aahz

> Also yeah, hes not as agile as dick or as strong as jason, tim is an all-rounder.


Dick and Jason are probably both stronger and more agile (or as agile) than Tim.




> League mook training, im impressed.


These guys afaik weren't league members, and since Talia also got Damian his training I would assume that she can get you very competent trainers. 




> He is actually a great marksman. Hes just not as good as the other more experienced robins in a fight.


He is a highly trained martial artists, and way more than just a masksmen (even is the writers often seem to forget it). And the flash backs to his pre Robin days kind of suggest that he had a talent for fighting.




> And all those names still dont come close to showing the results in training others that bruce has. Only one as impressive as bruce when it comes to training others would probably be david cain.


Bronze Tiger and Shiva (and the All-Cast) are not impressive? And for half of Tims pre flashpoint career Bruce wasn't even arround (Knighfall, No Mans Land , Brentwood, Fugative, post R.I.P.) and post flashpoint they we all anyway just for a year or so with Bruce, so in total his time with Bruce wasn't much longer than Jasons in both continuities.

Even in Frank Millers Last Crusade (I know that it is non canon) his fighting skill is also the one thing Bruce praises about him, for me it seems that being a good fighter seems slowly to become a defining trait for him.

----------


## Atlanta96

Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.

----------


## Dataweaver

What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”?  Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience.  No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.


I would add Jason to that list. Think he gets it due to experience, drive, and willingness to fight dirty.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”?  Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience.  No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.


I agree that when Tim is as old as Bruce, he'll be a superior detective and strategist. But at the moment he's still just the 2nd smartest, only because of his age and less experience. And also bad writers turning Tim into an incompetent pr*ck I guess.

And Barbara is a genius in her own right and is slightly better with computers than Tim (as Oracle, at least) Tim still outranks her intellectually, and will outrank her even more when he's older.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I would add Jason to that list. Think he gets it due to experience, drive, and willingness to fight dirty.


Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.

----------


## The Whovian

> Couple of punches and kicks does not an equal match make.


Come on dude. Damian landed the same amount of hits on Tim, as Tim did on him. I know you like Tim a lot (I do too, BTW), but I think they're both equals.




> B&RD.jpg
> Anyway, this kinda shows what i mean.


That means nothing to me. Batman is always saying things like that to motivate his "family". He didn't want Damian getting a big head, so he pretty much is telling him what he needed to hear--that he's not all that just yet and he has a lot more work to do.

----------


## The Whovian

> Dick and Jason are probably both stronger and more agile (or as agile) than Tim.


Nobody is as agile as Dick. I do however, think Tim is way more agile than Jason.

----------


## The Whovian

> Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.


I agree with this 100%

----------


## The Whovian

> What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”?  Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience.  No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.


This is just not true at all. Batman is considered the greatest detective in the DCU and a genius. Bruce was trained by several masters of detective work, one of which was Ducard. 

And while Oracle is good, she's not on Bruce or Tim's level in this category.

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## The Whovian

> I agree that when Tim is as old as Bruce, he'll be a superior detective and strategist. But at the moment he's still just the 2nd smartest, only because of his age and less experience. And also bad writers turning Tim into an incompetent pr*ck I guess.
> 
> And Barbara is a genius in her own right and is slightly better with computers than Tim (as Oracle, at least) Tim still outranks her intellectually, and will outrank her even more when he's older.


Preach on brother!

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## The Whovian

> Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.


I have him slightly below Tim and Damian. Jason's weakness is that you can get into his head and that in turn takes him off his game.

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## phantom1592

> What do you mean, “aside from Bruce”?  Arguably, the only reason Bruce is better than Tim at detective work and the like are his added decades of experience.  No, Tim's only rival for “smartest of the Bat-family” is Barbara Gordon, a.k.a. Oracle.


Gotta remember that in most continuities... Bruce BUILT the computers, gear and tech that Tim excels at. Bruce has been seen working Teleporters and helping operate on Red Tornado... Tim is incredibly brilliant... but He's usually seen working with what's available and making it shine... where Bruce takes a problem (flying Man-bats, fear toxins, killer plants... and creates the PERFECT device that will win the day. 






> Tim has definitely earned master combatant status by now. His inexperience might have been one of his defining traits during his early years, but after all his stories and victories he should only be less skilled than Dick, Bruce, and Cass Cain since he's also the smartest member of the Bat-Family aside from Bruce.


I think Tim's 'inexperience' was also considered 'humility'. He was always a lot better then he claimed to be. Coming in under Jason's death-shadow he was always very cautious and careful about what he should jump into and what he should watch and wait on.  When push came to shove he always prevailed... but he was always thinking he wasn't ready or good enough yet. 

Bruce knew he was... or he wouldn't have been given the mask yet. The humility was one of my favorite Tim traits and one of the reasons I hate Damian so much. I've never been a fan of arrogant characters.

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## Lhynn

> Come on dude. Damian landed the same amount of hits on Tim, as Tim did on him. I know you like Tim a lot (I do too, BTW), but I think they're both equals.


Until you realize its a 10 years old punching and kicking against a dude that has been shown punching through robots and cutting demon/gods and superman wannabes. Look im not really invested in Tim being the greatest fighter, it isnt his thing, neither is being the "tech kid" as shown in new 52. Tim has always been the humble kid with the brain, any intellectual endeavor hes set out to do has shown impressive results, be it detective work, electronics, hacking, genetics, security, etc. This is the guy i want to see more of.

A guy that fights to win, not to defeat his opponent but for a larger goal. The third most seasoned member of the batfamily and the batman of the teen justice league.




> Bronze Tiger and Shiva (and the All-Cast) are not impressive?


Fighters? yes, teachers? nope




> And for half of Tims pre flashpoint career Bruce wasn't even arround (Knighfall, No Mans Land , Brentwood, Fugative, post R.I.P.) and post flashpoint they we all anyway just for a year or so with Bruce, so in total his time with Bruce wasn't much longer than Jasons in both continuities.


Sure, but this time was solo field experience. Also during this time much of the training came from alfred, which is arguably as good a teacher as bruce. 




> Even in Frank Millers Last Crusade (I know that it is non canon) his fighting skill is also the one thing Bruce praises about him, for me it seems that being a good fighter seems slowly to become a defining trait for him.


Damian is a great fighter, but he is also a 10 year old kid, not much he can do about this until he grows up. Sides, if he was already as good as hes ever going to get hed be pretty boring as a character. Mark my words, Damian will probably become a far better combatant than any other on the batfam, hes got the training, hes got the drive and that seems to be his endgame. All he needs is training and experience, and fixing his attitude, which hes slowly doing.

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## The Whovian

> Until you realize its a 10 years old punching and kicking against a dude that has been shown punching through robots and cutting demon/gods and superman wannabes.


In martial arts, size and age doesn't matter when it comes to skill and force. I used to teach martial arts in Seattle back in 1989 and I've been around it all of my life and I've seen some pretty amazing things. I've seen children hit harder than grown men. "Chi" isn't a comic book thing. It's real. I used to spar with my sensei's sensei once in a while back then and it was like hitting concrete. It hurt me more landing blows than it hurt him I can guarantee you that. 

So yes, Damian is younger but he's been trained to hit just as hard.

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## Aahz

> Coming in under Jason's death-shadow he was always very cautious and careful about what he should jump into and what he should watch and wait on.


Sorry but that is complete BS. 
I just read the new collections of of Tims early time as Robin, basically all the mistakes Jason is always accused of including being nearly killed by the Joker because he tried to take him alone, disobeying Batman, going after KGBeast (who was at this time still the most dangerous fighter in Batmans Rogues gallery) to rescue a girl he had a crush on and nearly killing someone because he thought they had killed that girl. He only survived always because somebody showed up to rescue him.
He is hardly cautious and careful in these stories.




> Fighters? yes, teachers? nope


You know that (pre flashpoint) Shiva was the one that Trained Batman after bane broke his back and and helped Cass after she lost her body language? Bronze Tiger was (also pre flashpoint) one of Cass trainers and trained Richard Dragon. And Durca and the All-Caste were just created to be Jasons teachers.

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## Godlike13

Ehh, size matters. There is a reason there is a weight class in competive fighting. Jason getting one shot or beat by Damin probably should not happen. Tim is different. He's not actually all that big, and usually Damian catches him off guard. Still I get why it would rub others the wrong way. Though at the same time your not necessarily meant to like it. To use wrestling terminology Damian acts often like a heel. When he beats someone up its not neccariarly meant to glorify him. Like when he came in and beat up Tim it wasn't meant to be about showing how much cooler he was then Tim. It was meant to piss the reader off. Get people to be like that little bastard.

This is comics though. These things happen. Damian has at least also been humbled on plenty of occasions.

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## The Whovian

> Ehh, size matters.


I respectfully disagree. I've seen young kids literally beat up adults. Now, all things being equal, a man with the same skills as a young adult is going to hit harder because he has more mass and muscle.




> There is a reason there is a weight class in competive fighting. Jason getting one shot by Damin probably should not happen. Tim is different. He's not actually all that big, and usually Damian catches him off guard. Still I get why it would rub others the wrong way. Though at the same as time your not necessarily meant to like it. To use wrestling terminology Damian acts more like heel. When he beats someone up its not neccariarly ment to glorify him. When he came in and beat up Tim it wasn't meant to be about showing how much cooler he was then Tim. It was ment to piss the reader off. Get people to be like that little bastard.


LOL! So true

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

It is really hard to quantify skill in post-86 Batman due to editorial and shifts in tone, Remember that the Dick vs. Bruce thing resulted in Dick being retconned into getting fired instead of leaving on his own, Batman became a Man-God like figure who could do anything which is partially why Morrison made Damian Wayne so uber skilled as a meta mockery at the ridiculous skill levels people have. How the Bat family operates is more akin to James Bond rather than the traditional detective work done in the Golden/Silver Age. Aside from Blackgate & Arkham do we know of any other jails in Gotham? How many of Batman's current villains will honestly see a day in court? Do they even log cases anymore? What fields of study are they most strong at? I don't respect any Bat ranking in skill as they are mostly absurd from Batman to Dick Grayson to Tim Drake to Cass Cain. They have all been trained to take on threats that range from petty thug to meta human and most arguments over who is better are fans opinion. I would like a Dick Grayson with skills reflective of training he received from Batman, Superman, Teen Titans rather than what he must be due to the compare and contrast game in Bat comics.

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## Aahz

> Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.


In pure Hand-to-Hand combat Tim is imo below Jason. With prep or gadgets he can win but Jason is also not to bad in this department (just looked at his fights with Bruce in Under the Hood).
But Jason is really inconsistent and it are unfortunately usually the big events when writers suddenly write him incompetent. But Tim was also not very impressive in the new 52 events (with exception of B&RE).




> Sure, but this time was solo field experience. Also during this time much of the training came from alfred, which is arguably as good a teacher as bruce.


Alfred is a lot, but he is not really a fighter. And in stories with Tim he was usually just his assistant and driver, I can't remember a single story in one of the main continuities were Alfred acted as a Teacher.




> I have him slightly below Tim and Damian. Jason's weakness is that you can get into his head and that in turn takes him off his game.


And Damian didn't got into Tims head when they fought?

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## Aioros22

Averagely there`s no way I`d put Damian or Tim even equal to Jason. The best single fights Damian have had since the reboot was exactly against Jason and in either instance it`s either running away or taking advantage of a drop guard. In most of the encounters he`s had with either, Jason has looked the better. Tim`s single best fight against Jason, outside the staged cage fight, was figthing on more or less equal terms against a blind Jason. 

When talking about Damian, we need to settle one thing on the go. As per Jason`s own voice, he won`t go all out against "a kid". Tim might, because he`s closer in age and actually more prone to be pissed at Damian`s antics. You can reply saying Damian did that to Jason, when it actually, both dropped the guard by using the same mental game: Damian by pulling the death string and Jason the mother string. They both share similar emotional weakness. 

If you add up how since the reboot his figthing background only expanded (even before actually, with "Lost Days") that only cements it for me. That isn`t to say Tim or Damian can`t win. They just wouldn`t steal the majority of them and I believe most writers would back that up. I`m obviously also counting how Jason`s done quite well against other trained MA, because well....I can. 

People shouldn`t forget that back then Bruce spoke of Jason as someone who "took Dick`s training like a fish in the water". That was a 6 months period training, in the original pro crisis origin.

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## Lhynn

> In pure Hand-to-Hand combat Tim is imo below Jason. With prep or gadgets he can win but Jason is also not to bad in this department (just looked at his fights with Bruce in Under the Hood).
> But Jason is really inconsistent and it are unfortunately usually the big events when writers suddenly write him incompetent. But Tim was also not very impressive in the new 52 events (with exception of B&RE).


I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.




> Alfred is a lot, but he is not really a fighter. And in stories with Tim he was usually just his assistant and driver, I can't remember a single story in one of the main continuities were Alfred acted as a Teacher.


Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from making a decent tea, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.

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## Aioros22

> Jason's fighting skills are the most inconsistent. Sometimes he's portrayed as skilled enough to take on 2 Bat-Family members at once, other times he seems weaker than everyone else, including Damian. I'd rank him below Tim, since he's not as cerebral and doesn't use as much strategy in his fights.


They haven`t been as inconsistant as some others, actually. Dick has been by far the king of that crown lately. Jason`s actually shown tactical skill against Dick, Tim, Bruce and Cassandra, if keeping it in the family..

His worst showings since he came back?

Damian and Barbara (new52). That`s it. His others fights tend to be competent. And his fight with Barbara was textually him being nice to her.

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## Aioros22

How about we list all of Tim and Jason`s fights?

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## SXVA

> I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
> Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.
> 
> 
> Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from *making a decent tea*, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
> You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.


One cannot underestimate the value of good tea. Being serious. I love me some tea.

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## Aioros22

> I disagree, Tim has beaten jason in almost every fight theyve had, and jason has only gotten the upper hand with dirty tricks and stuff meant to kill someone that holds back against him because he respects him and what he did as robin. When jason stuck that batarang on tims chest after tim had him handily beat i wanted to punch him hard in the face, dirty guy with no respect for human life i tell you.
> Jason has actually shot people to escape from Tim after he had beat him and captured him. *The difference both as fighters and as heroes is huge.*


I agree. Tim would never, for example, use a _crowbar_. 




> Alfred is ex military, top sniper/marksman/doctor in the history of the british army, and an incredibly good detective. Also very educated gentleman, and most of those skills were passed on to Tim, from making a decent tea, to chess, detective work and criminology and even how to fold towels. Dude is the heart of batmans entire operation.
> You should read robin btw, alfred has been with him most of the way when batman was out of reach.


You had me at folding towels.

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## The Whovian

> And Damian didn't got into Tims head when they fought?


I'm saying that it's a general weakness of Jason's. He lets emotion get in the way of things very easily and opponents know it and use it against him. Tim doesn't have that same weakness in general.

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## godisawesome

Here's how I see the Pre-Flashpoint breakdown of the confrontations between the younger three male Robins. I find it hard to quantify Tim in the New 52 because of how OTT his skills were sometimes shown in Teen Titans; I'm not going to use information from a source that had Tim somehow stunning Superboy in a fistfight or seemingly incapacitating Trigon by impaling his eyes. Most of New 52 Tim's tactics and displays of ability were not governed by intelligent writing but by what Scott Lobdell and co though would make a good splash page; 90's Image writing at its worst.

Jason vs Tim: overall, these fights tended to showcase how Jason's physical advantages in terms of strength and reach continued to defeat Tim.
-Teen Titans fight by Geoff Johns. Jason dominates the fight, with a brief period where Tim manages to get in some serious hits with his staff, but the fight is effectively over once Jason tears the staff from him to beat him with it. Winner: Jason, cleanly.
-Robin showdown by Fabian Nicieza. Jason and Tim both use distance tactics, with Tim proving decent enough to actually avoid being shot and get in a good hit. Jason firing blindly gets Tim to take a few bullets for a thug, but the General interferes and Tim prevails. Winner: Tim, with interference.
-Battle of the Cowl duel by Tony Daniel. Arguably the most interestingly staged one, even if not written by an experienced writer and featuring the most unbalanced Jason, this has Jason rather cunningly use stealth to repeatedly damage Tim, has him dominate the fight, Tim seems to get the upper hand with a crowbar, but Jason's too fast and stabs him. Winner: Jason, cleanly.

I'm only using the two Tim and Damian fights I can immediate remember from Pre-Flashpoint, with an add on for New 52. Tim has a similar physical advantage that Jason has against him, but there is a greater focus on mental faculties in this fight.
-Son of Batman fight by Grant Morrison. Damian starts out with a surprise-grenade-in-a-decapitated-noggin move (unexpected), but Tim recovers and uses the Damian's offensive press to make Damian fight up hill and off the T-Rex. Damian then sucker punches Tim. This is fairly ambiguous in some ways; was Tim fighting back or trying to defuse the situation, was Damian really in danger from the fall, etc. Winner: Damian, though not without extenuating circumstances?
-Red Robin fight. Damian, angered by Tim's paranoia about him, cuts Tim's line. And since paranoia is made for things like that, Tim's ready, throws the villain they're pursuing into Damian, tackles Damian off the ledge, and looks pretty clearly like he's about to hand Damian his ass when DickBats interrupts. Winner: Tim, but not complete.
-Bonus: Batman and Robin fight, New 52. Oddly enough, this was the only offensive Bo Staff use I can remember of New 52 Tim Drake, and the only real Robin v Robin fight that headlined an issue of the arc. Tim's the first one to throw a punch this time, and it's pretty even, it's either a tie in the physical sense, or Tim's victory in a physical sense because at the end of the issue, he drives away on his bike and Damian's planted in a computer. But I think we can give the mental victory to Damian; he mostly wanted to lecture and troll Tim on the events of the Culling (easy pickings). So either Tim had enough control of the fight to leave it when he wanted to, or Damian won because Tim started the fight.

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## Lhynn

> You had me at folding towels.


Hah, just to show you the extent of his education. Robins run was pretty great at showing a lot of the stuff that gets handwaved on other batman publications

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## Kao

> Averagely there`s no way I`d put Damian or Tim even equal to Jason. The best single fights Damian have had since the reboot was exactly against Jason and in either instance it`s either running away or taking advantage of a drop guard. In most of the encounters he`s had with either, Jason has looked the better. Tim`s single best fight against Jason, outside the staged cage fight, was figthing on more or less equal terms against a blind Jason. 
> 
> When talking about Damian, we need to settle one thing on the go. As per Jason`s own voice, he won`t go all out against "a kid". Tim might, because he`s closer in age and actually more prone to be pissed at Damian`s antics. You can reply saying Damian did that to Jason, when it actually, both dropped the guard by using the same mental game: Damian by pulling the death string and Jason the mother string. They both share similar emotional weakness. 
> 
> If you add up how since the reboot his figthing background only expanded (even before actually, with "Lost Days") that only cements it for me. That isn`t to say Tim or Damian can`t win. They just wouldn`t steal the majority of them and I believe most writers would back that up. I`m obviously also counting how Jason`s done quite well against other trained MA, because well....I can. 
> 
> People shouldn`t forget that back then Bruce spoke of Jason as someone who "took Dick`s training like a fish in the water". That was a 6 months period training, in the original pro crisis origin.


That's how I feel.

Dick is the acrobat. Jason is the fighter. Tim is the brains. Damien is the uberprodigy.

I love Tim but he literally got given the bo-staff cos he wasn't the best in combat and needed assistance.

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## Atlanta96

> That's how I feel.
> 
> Dick is the acrobat. Jason is the fighter. Tim is the brains. Damien is the uberprodigy.
> 
> I love Tim but he literally got given the bo-staff cos he wasn't the best in combat and needed assistance.


Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.

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## The Whovian

> Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.


I think he will as well. Tim is a much better fighter than people give him credit for.

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## Aioros22

> Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.


I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger. 

Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons. 

And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing _guy_, was he? That was Jean Paul.

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## The Whovian

> I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger. 
> 
> Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons. 
> 
> And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing _guy_, was he? That was Jean Paul.


In the 90's and on, it was Shiva = Cass, then Connor slightly below those two. Then you had the next tier with Batman, etc.

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## The Whovian

Here's Connor's fight with Shiva:

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## The Whovian



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## The Whovian



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## The Whovian



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## Rac7d*

> I think in their own way writers should always expand their backgrounds, figthing abilities and styles included, but I feel most writers will head out the hierarchy between the boys on average. For example, I don`t think most would feel weird about Jason taking Tim more than 50% of the time. Tim`s skillset lends more on agility and formal MA. Jason`s skillset is assasination and mystical. He`s also bigger and physically stronger. 
> 
> Damian should, for every obvious reason be at the bottom. Even comic book reasons. 
> 
> And really, even in the 90`s when the family had other characters, even borrowing two by proxis like Vic Sage and Connor Hawke, Tim wasn`t exactly this figthing _guy_, was he? That was Jean Paul.


Why would Damian be at the bottom, He so balanced and his only handicapped by his size which he uses to his advantage, like in his deathroke fight, and soon the gap will close since he is aging. I pretty much expect him to be a beast by 15

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## The Whovian

> Why would Damian be at the bottom, He so balanced and his only handicapped by his size which he uses to his advantage, like in his deathroke fight, and soon the gap will close since he is aging. I pretty much expect him to be a beast by 15


Yep. Give Damian a few years and he's going to be elite.

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## SXVA

I don't think there's anything definitive in the way comics are set up in various people putting their voice into the way these characters are. As in taking a piece out of one comic book as empirical evidence of this or that.

My take on it is all of them are some of the best fighters/best heroes, Batman saw something in all of them. Each one has their greater strengths.  And the rest is open to interpretation and left to the imagination. Any of them could be the best. depending.

The only thing with Damien is his age. I'm not sure how old he is now i think the last time i saw him he was like 10. It's just not possible for a little kid to match more experienced and capable fighters no matter how skilled they are. They could certainly handle themselves against the common baddie or regular person but not a much more capable, experienced and skilled older fighter. I don't care who trained them.

Once he gets older he'll be right there along side the others as some of the best. I don't get the need to determine which one is the "best" definitively because there's different things that make each one of them who they are. They're all the best in that sense.

[But we all know Tim Drake is really the best  :Stick Out Tongue:  haha jk]

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## Rac7d*

> I don't think there's anything definitive in the way comics are set up in various people putting their voice into the way these characters are. As in taking a piece out of one comic book as empirical evidence of this or that.
> 
> My take on it is all of them are some of the best fighters/best heroes, Batman saw something in all of them. Each one has their greater strengths.  And the rest is open to interpretation and left to the imagination. Any of them could be the best. depending.
> 
> The only thing with Damien is his age. *It's just not possible for a little kid to match more experienced and capable fighters no matter how skilled they are. They could certainly handle themselves against the common baddie or regular person but not a much more capable, experienced and skilled older fighter. I don't care who trained them.
> *
> Once he gets older he'll be right there along side the others as some of the best. I don't get the need to determine which one is the "best" because there's different things that make each one of them who they are. They're all the best in that sense.


Cassandra Cain says hello only a year older then damian, and they basicly have the same upbringing, yet cass is not nearly as destructive
anyway age doesnt matter, and everyone has more experience and training then tim(who i can only assume has been at this for 2 years)

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## SXVA

> Cassandra Cain says hello only a year older then damian, and they basicly have the same upbringing, yet cass is not nearly as destructive
> anyway age doesnt matter, and everyone has more experience and training then tim(who i can only assume has been at this for 2 years)


Age does matter in this sense/context. Can you imagine any kid 10-11 getting into the octagon ring in an MMA match and standing any sort of realistic chance against even an amateur older fighter let alone a pro fighter. Not even close to being in the realms of possibility.

The Cassandra thing is equally ridiculous when she was a little kid.

A super powered alien coming down from another planet to earth is more believable and possible than that.

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## josai21

Tim is not the best combatant in the Batfamily, prolly one of the lower tier if we're being honest...however prior to Damian Wayne being introduced I felt like the editorial intent was to one day have Tim take the mantle of Batman. There were so many different shifts and storylines that indicated his likeness to Bruce.

Of Batman's protege's, Tim is the one most like Bruce. I think, like Bruce, he would one day become one of the most skilled martial artists in the world...but even Bruce isn't the greatest. Wayne couples his fighting skills with his intelligence. I feel like TIm would have done the same. His match with Shiva in Red Robin was brilliantly done I thought.

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## Rac7d*

> Age does matter in this sense/context. *Can you imagine* any kid 10-11 getting into the octagon ring in an MMA match and standing any sort of *realistic chance* against even an amateur older fighter let alone a pro fighter. Not even close to being in the realms of possibility.
> 
> The Cassandra thing is equally ridiculous when she was a little kid.
> 
> A super powered alien coming down from another planet to earth is more believable and possible than that.


Yes i can imagine, in the real of comic book land. It what makes the robin angle work. I get your point it why robin cant be younger then 16 in any live action film sans Kickass. Its ridiculous and its here, the same thing applied to Tim in his robin - hood, besides more often then not they can defeat large competent enmeies with less physical directness but with  imagination, cleverness and agility, so basicly homealone, with a lil ninja mix in

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## Lhynn

Tim started his training under batman at the age of 9.

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## godisawesome

Okay, digressing from the often overwrought "who would beat who" argument, I want to talk about Tim and Shiva in this scene again...



> 


First, man oh man, this is the Shiva I like; all Cheshire Cat grins, and completely backed up confidence. That's what the character's about, not weaponized pony tails.

Secondly, I love that Tim's relationship with Shiva had this weird "I'm so proud of you as a student! I can't wait to fight you to the death when your older!" Thing. And it's kind of a nice parallel to Jason in some way as well; both these boys have massive cajones without being the smiling daredevil acrobat that Dick was. Jason steals Batmobile tires, Tim calls in a debt from Shiva while her bloods up.

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## josai21

> Okay, digressing from the often overwrought "who would beat who" argument, I want to talk about Tim and Shiva in this scene again...
> 
> First, man oh man, this is the Shiva I like; all Cheshire Cat grins, and completely backed up confidence. That's what the character's about, not weaponized pony tails.
> 
> Secondly, I love that Tim's relationship with Shiva had this weird "I'm so proud of you as a student! I can't wait to fight you to the death when your older!" Thing. And it's kind of a nice parallel to Jason in some way as well; both these boys have massive cajones without being the smiling daredevil acrobat that Dick was. Jason steals Batmobile tires, Tim calls in a debt from Shiva while her bloods up.


Agreed. The scene where he beat her in Red Robin was too short in my humble opinion. Would have loved to have seen a full on story arc in Red Robin with her as the main antagonist. Could have been something where Tim truly has to advance his combat skills into the Mastery level.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Why would Damian be at the bottom, He so balanced and his only handicapped by his size which he uses to his advantage, like in his deathroke fight, and soon the gap will close since he is aging. I pretty much expect him to be a beast by 15


I hope not. Damians at his best when his arrogance isn't supported by his abilities. He's an interesting character, but one most of us like to see put in his place. He's fine at the moment since his skill level is only amazing for someone his age, but 16 year old unstoppable master combatant Damian is not something I want to see. This may sound mean spirited, but I hope that by the time he's in his mid teens he sustains a permanent injury that doesn't stop him from being a crime fighter, but restricts his fighting skills so he's not the fighting machine we expect him to be at that age. It would keep his ego in check and probably make him more interesting in the long term.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I hope not. Damians at his best when his arrogance isn't supported by his abilities. He's an interesting character, but one most of us like to see put in his place. He's fine at the moment since his skill level is only amazing for someone his age, but 16 year old unstoppable master combatant Damian is not something I want to see. This may sound mean spirited, but I hope that by the time he's in his mid teens he sustains a permanent injury that doesn't stop him from being a crime fighter, but restricts his fighting skills so he's not the fighting machine we expect him to be at that age. It would keep his ego in check and probably make him more interesting in the long term.


he is the heir to the lazarus pit, no permanent injury here, i mean danm barbra has recovered form her paralysis, you cant keep thease kids down.  By the time hes 16 he should have recovered from his from his mot negative personality traits basicly allowing him to be nothing but awesome

----------


## SXVA

> Yes i can imagine, in the real of comic book land. It what makes the robin angle work. I get your point it why robin cant be younger then 16 in any live action film sans Kickass. Its ridiculous and its here, the same thing applied to Tim in his robin - hood, besides more often then not they can defeat large competent enmeies with less physical directness but with  imagination, cleverness and agility, so basicly homealone, with a lil ninja mix in


Well, a mid teen would be much more believable at least and possible. There's a gigantic difference between say someone aged 10-11 and 14-15. I've seen some 14-15 year old wrestlers and athletes who were pretty darn badass for example.

The difference with something like Home Alone is those baddies were bumbling fools. I mentioned in the initial post they could handle themselves versus the typical baddie or regular people who didn't have much training or ability. I'm speaking on a capable, experienced and skilled older combatant like say a Tim, Dick or Jason.  

I would concede that using cleverness and ingenuity could close that gap of impossibility. If someone was a phenom genius at gadgets something like that could start bringing things more into the realm of possibility. What was being discussed, however i thought was more about fighting skill/ability which is what i was commenting on. Like Damian taking on Jason in a straight up fight situation. 

My argument is that the little kid versions of Damian/Cassandra should in no way be able to match these more experienced, older and very capable characters in that straight up fight scenario. That's not to say they aren't able to do some things like i mentioned. They could probably go out and take out your average baddie based on their background/training. By having these type of characters match the other characters it hurts both characters in the process versus allowing a more natural progression to play out. For example, there's now a stigma attached to Damian for me that i'm not sure i'll be able to get passed in regard to believability. It's going to be hard not to see him as a forced character. Cassandra is a bit more complex, this is just my take on it but because it felt to me more "cartoony" and there was so much more established with the character i was able to believe in the character more despite some of the absurdity and ridiculous aspects to it. Damian was too fast/too soon and it felt disrespectful to other established characters. I did like Damian more in those early stories from Tomasi on Batman and Robin where it felt like he was growing and progressing from a younger basis there but then the death stopped that movement.

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## Aahz

> Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.


The thing is, fighting is sofar seems to be the only area were Jason really excels at, if you make the the "smart Robin" (how is younger and much smaller) a better fighter (or as good as Jason) Jason becomes really useless.
And for Tim getting his Ass kicked, the writers should just stop letting the Batfamily constantly fight against each other and give them villains to fight. Seriously all of Jason best fight scenes in events have been against other Batfamily member, he had not one good fight against a villain sofar.
And they don't have to make Tim much weaker, as they don't have to write Jason as he was a complete idiot (what they imo did at some points during the last crossovers).




> Tim started his training under batman at the age of 9.


No he was (pre flashpoint) 13, and close to 14 when he finally became Robin. He had actually the highest starting age of all Robins, since the highest starting age you find for Dick and Jason is 12. (Btw. when you try to track down the ages based on the original comics from the late 80s, it seems actually that Tim and Jason are the same age.)




> The Cassandra thing is equally ridiculous when she was a little kid.


Yeah, she being able to best Bronze Tiger when she was little Kid is just ridiculous. Bronze Tiger is one few guys in the DCU that is actually around Shivas level.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why would Damian be at the bottom, *He so balanced* and his only handicapped by his size which he uses to his advantage, like in his deathroke fight, and soon the gap will close since he is aging. I pretty much expect him to be a beast by 15


He`s really not. 

If some people lay out how Jason has emotional weakness, then you have to lay out how Damian also got them. He`s got ego, pride, inferiority complex (most of which Jason has dealt with) and also shares the exact emotional string that Jason does. In Batman and Robin#11 by Tomasi, we shouldn`t forget that if Damian uses mind game to disarm one of Jason`s batons, Jason equally uses mind games to get the opening to grab the baton back for Damian to run away. 

Ego, prideful, complex and emotional string as well as being a pre teen. He should be at the bottom currently. 

Now Cass was billed as this karate Kid lite one of a kind prodigy since birth which is something Damian hasn`t as consistantly (was he ever?). Yeah, he handly won the very first fight with Tim under Morrison...who was being friendly and wouldn`t think of harming Bruce`s son. But if you ask me, Cass was just utterly ridiculous for a supposed "normal" peak human character with no mystical side to it. Even comic book ridiculous. I`m aware Bronze Tiger wasn`t expecting a little girl to be all that, but it was assassine and likely the reason why nowadays she`s more balanced in her skillset. Shiva may have been jobbed to Jason, but even this wasn`t half as bad.

----------


## Aahz

> Now Cass was billed as this karate Kid lite one of a kind prodigy since birth which is something Damian hasn`t as consistantly (was he ever?).


Cass was also just trained as a fighter, and at nothing else. Damian is like Batman good at everything.

Btw. I don't think that we will see Damian becoming much older than he is now anytime soon. If you make him to old he will completely loose his appeal, they had either to change his behaviour or he would just be a jerk without being cute or funny anymore. And you technically had to turn the current generation of older teen Bat Characters into adults, which would probably also reduce their appeal.

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## Atlanta96

> he is the heir to the lazarus pit, no permanent injury here, i mean danm barbra has recovered form her paralysis, you cant keep thease kids down.  By the time hes 16 he should have recovered from his from his mot negative personality traits basicly allowing him to be nothing but awesome


Without his negative traits, his arrogance, impulsiveness etc, Damian would end up being a generic teen vigilante. Unstoppable, flawless, better than everyone Damian doesn't sound like the best direction for the character, unless they're planning to build him up and then tragically destroy him.

----------


## josai21

Was thinking about the 52 Titans books this morning and I think the reason was Lobdell made the most critical mistake a comic book writer can make.

He made the story drive the characters as opposed to the characters driving the story. His priority on story caused characters to act differently than they would have otherwise.

In the case of Tim, the characters personality was assassinated to drive the plot forward.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The thing is, fighting is sofar seems to be the only area were Jason really excels at, if you make the the "smart Robin" (how is younger and much smaller) a better fighter (or as good as Jason) Jason becomes really useless.
> And for Tim getting his Ass kicked, the writers should just stop letting the Batfamily constantly fight against each other and give them villains to fight. Seriously all of Jason best fight scenes in events have been against other Batfamily member, he had not one good fight against a villain sofar.
> And they don't have to make Tim much weaker, as they don't have to write Jason as he was a complete idiot (what they imo did at some points during the last crossovers).


Well since Jason and the Bat Family in general have grown so far apart, with only occasional interactions, you could make him the weakest of the lot and it wouldn't make that much of a difference. He's on okay terms with most of the other Batman protégés so he's not a villain to them anymore, but still isn't very close to any of them or a go-to ally. Not much reason to interact with them at all.

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## Aahz

> Well since Jason and the Bat Family in general have grown so far apart, with only occasional interactions, you could make him the weakest of the lot and it wouldn't make that much of a difference.


He was in any Batfamily Cross over event sofar and is quite often put together with Tim, so making him weaker than Tim in everything would have quite an effect on him.

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## Atlanta96

> He was in any Batfamily Cross over event sofar and is quite often put together with Tim, so making him weaker than Tim in everything would have quite an effect on him.


And having Tim be weaker than Jason doesn't affect him? Tim getting his ass kicked by his predecessor, who he managed to outperform in less than a year of crime fighting by defeating the Joker and not dying, is kind of humiliating. Even if Jason had been trained by elite assassins for years.

BTW I do like how Jason and Tim are on decent terms with each other now and can get along alright, even with their past baggage. It's something I'd like to see with Damian as well, and would increase my liking of Damian by a lot. Make Tim the guy who can resolve all his rivalries and toxic relationships and create close allies for himself in the process.

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## Aahz

> And having Tim be weaker than Jason doesn't affect him? Tim getting his ass kicked by his predecessor, who he managed to outperform in less than a year of crime fighting by defeating the Joker and not dying, is kind of humiliating. Even if Jason had been trained by elite assassins for years.


No since Tim defining trait is being the smartest Robin, which he still would be in this constellation (the way they had Jason praising Tims intelligence in B&RE was already bad enough). Being teamed up with Dick, who is also a better fighter also never hurt him. 

Tim already got his ass kicked by Jason and they shouldn't fight against each other anyway at the moment.

Btw. Tim was in that story also nearly killed by the Joker he just survived because the police arrived in time to rescue him. Him winning in the end didn't had much to do with his fighting skills. And it is anyway not canon in the new 52.

----------


## Kao

> Now that Tim has so many other characters to compete with for popularity, having him be a less skilled fighter doesn't really work for him the way it did when the Bat-Family wasn't as bloated. Having Tim repeatedly get his ass kicked by Jason or Damian will end up getting him dismissed as the lamest of Batmans allies, so they should definitely ramp up his fighting skills in 'Tec and all his future appearances.


Of course he can fight. I'm just saying he's the weaker H2H. Which is fine. He makes up for it by using tactics.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> And having Tim be weaker than Jason doesn't affect him? Tim getting his ass kicked by his predecessor, who he managed to outperform in less than a year of crime fighting by defeating the Joker and not dying, is kind of humiliating. Even if Jason had been trained by elite assassins for years.
> 
> BTW I do like how Jason and Tim are on decent terms with each other now and can get along alright, even with their past baggage. It's something I'd like to see with Damian as well, and would increase my liking of Damian by a lot. Make Tim the guy who can resolve all his rivalries and toxic relationships and create close allies for himself in the process.


I like that Tim and Damian at this point can work together, but I also love that Damian is the only one who can really get under Tim's skin and make him act immature. 

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with jason taking tim in a straight up H2H fight. Jason is the brawler, Tim is the tactician.

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## Aioros22

> And having Tim be weaker than Jason doesn't affect him?.


Nah. In either continuity Tim was never presented as "the figther". His main identifying traits lie elewhere, so in what way would that diminish him? It`s not like it`s a big shock that most of the fanbase would feel Jay to have the h2h edge since...usually he does. 




> Tim getting his ass kicked by his predecessor, who he managed to outperform in less than a year of crime fighting by *defeating the Joker and not dying, is kind of humiliating*. *Even if Jason had been trained by elite assassins for years*


That`s a huge rosed tinted glass view of what happened, isn`t it? 




> BTW I do like how Jason and Tim are on decent terms with each other now and can get along alright, even with their past baggage. It's something I'd like to see with Damian as well, and would increase my liking of Damian by a lot. Make Tim the guy who can resolve all his rivalries and toxic relationships and create close allies for himself in the process.


I like that as well.

----------


## Aioros22

Here`s food for tought. Back then Dick actually claimed Jay had been more useful as Robin-with-Titans, than he used to. Jay helped take down Two Face and had him at his mercy, whom was usually seen as the boogeyman for DickRobin. Does that mean it diminishes him losing to his predecessor?

On the other hand, Jay had also defeated the Joker on his own (embarassed him even) and even saved his life once. Coincidentely, before henchemen and crowbars, all Joker was doing was taking lovetaps ("let`s boogey!") Tim outperformed him in the sense of gaining balance and control of himself, essential for the role. Dick outgrew it, Jason had a tragic fallout with it but Tim learned from both and embraced it.

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## Lhynn

Robins.jpg

Also cant remember when was it that tim became the world greatest detective, batman eternal or batman and robin eternal. Which doesnt surprise me, batman gets surprised by his own shadow nowadays. Everything catches him off guard.

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## Aioros22

I think his potental and lip service as the future World`s greatest detective came earlier. First time I actually recall seen it laid out was in Hush.

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## Lhynn

I mean as an official position. Like "former 2nd best detective in the world" "Best detective in the world". It was kind of jarring when i saw it.

----------


## SXVA

He's always had the potential in that area, it's only a natural progression that he would eventually reach that pinnacle of his abilities.

I mentioned before Tim was one of the characters that got me into DC Comics [and his relation to YJ/Connor/Bart] and it was because of that aspect in him having the potential of being similar to Batman and what made Batman so cool but from more of a relatable humble teenager point of view. Even though he was Robin in a way he was my Batman cuz i was around the same age as him at the time and i couldn't relate as much to Batman as i could Tim. He was 14 in his solo series, and he was a very relatable character. In his first solo case trying to stop "the Speedboys" a criminal car thief gang, while also trying to manage his relationship to a girl he liked, and his issues with his dad the way he approached it was very grounded and believable in how a teenager would approach the whole thing. He didn't succeed with awesome and unbelievable power and ability he took a methodical and tactical approach and used his mind first and foremost and then followed it up with his other skills. There was this huge guy in that gang and he admitted to himself and was humble enough to say i can't take this huge guy straight up and so he ran from him, and used clever tactical methods to overcome whereas other characters might just say something tough and jump in and take them out [which to me isn't as relatable and believable]. At the same time he was skilled enough and capable enough to take out a few of them when they had guns. That's quite impressive. The main way he stopped "the speedboys" and the Cluemaster though and some of his earlier cases was through detective work and through the groundwork of solving mystery and tactics and thinking, not through the brute force/power of his ability. 

I think it would be a natural progression for Tim to be in that role as one of the greatest detectives and tactical minds. 

I recently went back and read through some of Tim's solo Robin book's first few issues is how i remember this, i don't remember it from all the way back then aha. One of things that was funny to me how Tim seemed to know everyone's secret identity. Stephanie and Huntress said the same line in how he liked to keep pointing out that he knew who they were. And Batman at the time didn't even know who Huntress was. I forgot how cool those comics were and how good Tom Grummett + Adrienne Roy was on the art. Also forgot how cute those initial interactions between Stephanie/Tim were... i didn't remember Stephanie being so forward with Tim. I was with Tim in saying "whoa". 

[He was kind of a jerk to that first girl he was starting a relationship with but it's probably how a teenager would act in that situation while having so much else going on]

The first issue can be read for free on comixology if anyone wants to go back down memory lane hehe.
https://www.comixology.com/Robin-199...xpc3Qvc2VyaWVz

----------


## godisawesome

> I mean as an official position. Like "former 2nd best detective in the world" "Best detective in the world". It was kind of jarring when i saw it.


I think the "official" title only appeared in the New 52 books, probably the Eternals.

I do know that Ra's Al Ghul called both Dick and Tim "Detective" with some significance during and right after Batman RIP, but that Nightwing's gaining the title was pretty quickly overshadowed by his turn in the coal, while Ra's was a heavy feature of Tim's first arc as Red Robin.

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## Lhynn

Yeah, its just... the whole thing "hey guys, now im numero 1, seems like the one that was better than me has been failing hard at it lately". Should have been a thing that came after a good story, where either tim proved to be a better detective than batman at his best.
Its all so wrong and underdeveloped now.

Also not to mention the whole "taking down mother" operation was a joke. Could think of at least 100 uses for unlimited teleporting portal creation than what they ended up going with. Needlesly convoluted and planned by grayson instead of a simpler, much more effective plan that could have put every single hero at mothers castle doorstep.

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## Atlanta96

Yeah I gravitated towards Tim when I was a teenager because he was so intelligent and mature for his age, but he had a lot of humanity and never felt like an adult in a child's body. His Red Robin series and Geoff Johns Teen Titans are what made me a fan of his back in 2012. He was always one of my faves, but recently reading the Chuck Dixon stuff and Peter David's Young Justice have made him one of my top 3 superheroes, behind Wally West and Dick Grayson at #1.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Yeah, its just... the whole thing "hey guys, now im numero 1, seems like the one that was better than me has been failing hard at it lately". Should have been a thing that came after a good story, where either tim proved to be a better detective than batman at his best.


That would be the confrontation between Tim and Ras al'Ghul in _Red Robin_, where by the end of it Ras was referring to _Tim_ as “the detective”.  




> Its all so wrong and underdeveloped now.
> 
> Also not to mention the whole "taking down mother" operation was a joke. Could think of at least 100 uses for unlimited teleporting portal creation than what they ended up going with. Needlesly convoluted and planned by grayson instead of a simpler, much more effective plan that could have put every single hero at mothers castle doorstep.


Have I mentioned that N52 was not kind to Tim?

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## Lhynn

> That would be the confrontation between Tim and Ras al'Ghul in _Red Robin_, where by the end of it Ras was referring to _Tim_ as “the detective”.


Yeah, that was p. epic. Perfect build up and pay off there.

----------


## The Whovian

> That would be the confrontation between Tim and Ras al'Ghul in _Red Robin_, where by the end of it Ras was referring to _Tim_ as “the detective”.


Yeah, that was a cool story.

----------


## josai21

So...

OUR TIM IS BACK!!!

His arrogance is gone replaced by the confidence gained over numerous battles. Still feels like a less experienced/mature version than Tim was at the end of Red Robin, but considering everything I'm okay with that. It will be interesting to see where Tynion takes the character.

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope his costumes changes closer to his red robin pre flashpoint sans the head wrap, his costume is very generic now so much you wouldt know he is (red) robin
mabey that might happen over the arc in detective

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## Atlanta96

> So...
> 
> OUR TIM IS BACK!!!
> 
> His arrogance is gone replaced by the confidence gained over numerous battles. Still feels like a less experienced/mature version than Tim was at the end of Red Robin, but considering everything I'm okay with that. It will be interesting to see where Tynion takes the character.


Wally West is back, Tim Drake is back, if I didn't know better I'd say things were improving  :Smile: 
And since both issues of 'Tec have sold out, issue 934 twice I think, this series could give Tim the popularity boost he needs for another starring role either in a new YJ or a solo Bat-book. Now if they'd just restore his time as Robin to continuity, then I could be 100% satisfied.

----------


## Punisher007

Also: *spoilers:*
 Tim and Steph have gotten really "close" it seems. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yeah, that was p. epic. Perfect build up and pay off there.


The best part for me was that it would have been so easy to have Tim beat Ra's, a cop out way to show "development" and how Tim is a "badass".

Props to Yost for letting Tim have an utter victory while also getting kicked out the window lol.




> Wally West is back, Tim Drake is back, if I didn't know better I'd say things were improving 
> And since both issues of 'Tec have sold out, issue 934 twice I think, this series could give Tim the popularity boost he needs for another starring role either in a new YJ or a solo Bat-book. Now if they'd just restore his time as Robin to continuity, then I could be 100% satisfied.


Tynion is certainly trying his best. Bruce's talk with Tim, Tim and Steph's current status quo, seems like he's trying as hard as possible to let old readers slot in the old continuity if that's their choice.

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## Lhynn

> The best part for me was that it would have been so easy to have Tim beat Ra's, a cop out way to show "development" and how Tim is a "badass".
> 
> Props to Yost for letting Tim have an utter victory while also getting kicked out the window lol.


What made it great was that he knew what he was getting into, he knew he needed to distract him and his didnt have anything to do it with but himself. He knew he would probably die there, he didnt care. Had he used stalling tactics or banal distractions Ras would have suspected, so he fooled him in the only way he knew he would succeed.

----------


## BloodOps

Loved these past 2 issues of Detective for Tim.

At first, when the solicits and the synopsis for the books came out I thought they wanted Tim to go back in training, when in fact he is also training them and has Kate's and Bruce's full confidence and is actually acting as Kate's backup.

----------


## Dataweaver

Yes and no. He stands in the gap between the instructors and the trainees, representing each group to the other.

----------


## twincast

#934 was good but hampered a bit by the natural need for setup. #935 was great; pretty much perfect, in fact.  :Embarrassment:

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## Atlanta96

> #934 was good but hampered a bit by the natural need for setup. #935 was great; pretty much perfect, in fact.


Agreed. This is why I always give new series 2 or 3 issues before deciding to stick with them. Necessary setup often gets in the way of fun writing and moments. If the rest of the series can balance the cast as well as #935 did, then it will be perfect.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Also: *spoilers:*
>  Tim and Steph have gotten really "close" it seems. 
> *end of spoilers*


Ahhh fiddlesticks. Oh well.

----------


## Bergman

> So...
> 
> OUR TIM IS BACK!!!
> 
> His arrogance is gone replaced by the confidence gained over numerous battles. Still feels like a less experienced/mature version than Tim was at the end of Red Robin, but considering everything I'm okay with that. It will be interesting to see where Tynion takes the character.


So can we finally dispel with the notion that Tim is damaged for FOREVER, since it's only taken one or two good issues to get him back on track.

----------


## Lhynn

Always thought Ras was interested in Tim the most. Was brought up in the resurrection of Ras storyarc and half of the red robin run focused on that. Tim had all of what Ras perceived as Bruces most interesting traits but was far more open to interaction than Bruce. Due to this they also had a very interesting dynamic.

As for Dick, theres nothing for him there really, so at most you can make a story about him beating Ras mooks. As for Damian, he kinda completely rejected them already, where i see the most potential for stories is between him and his mother, they have a ton to talk about and deal with.

----------


## Aahz

> Always thought Ras was interested in Tim the most. Was brought up in the resurrection of Ras storyarc and half of the red robin run focused on that. Tim had all of what Ras perceived as Bruces most interesting traits but was far more open to interaction than Bruce. Due to this they also had a very interesting dynamic.


Ras Tim wasn't the only one Ras was intersted in. Bane and Azreal had both story arc where Ras wanted them as his heir, and in an other story arc he wanted to marry Black Canary, and then their child to be his heir.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Ras Tim wasn't the only one Ras was intersted in. Bane and Azreal had both story arc where Ras wanted them as his heir, and in an other story arc he wanted to marry Black Canary, and then their child to be his heir.


Ras wanting someone to be his heir or calling them "Detective" is not that significant compared to when he first appeared to the Batman who had become a legend himself by that time for stories from 1,940-1,971. Now you have Ras recruiting people from Green Arrow to Bane just cause.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Ras wanting someone to be his heir or calling them "Detective" is not that significant compared to when he first appeared to the Batman who had become a legend himself by that time for stories from 1,940-1,971. Now you have Ras recruiting people from Green Arrow to Bane just cause.


Bane and Azrael had good runs with Ra's, the purpose of their being selected and then later dismissed served as a reminder that only Batman was the "Detective", it was just spicing up the usual formula but ultimately respecting the established canon, Lex also had a good story like that in Cornell's Action run. Meanwhile Arrow just blatantly ripped off Batman's story because its writers are hacks while in Tim's case it was just another one of the steps taken by Tim writers to respond to the rise of Damian, they were really trying to hammer how Tim is totally Bruce lite and totally Bruce's heir and totally the guy who Ra's would choose. Post Damian era Tim really was an actual gary stu.

----------


## K. Jones

Yeah, I guess I always figured Ra's al Ghul was interested in Tim Drake because it was easy. I mean Tim was already globetrotting at the time, looking for Bruce. Ra's al Ghul had a vested interest in both finding Bruce Wayne (his golden boy) and keeping Tim close to hand because Tim was still Bruce's partnerless partner, so you have the kid, the 'detective protege' do a ton of the leg work, you keep your eye on him, and you can eventually use/attack him to draw Bruce out of hiding, if that's where he is. Or let your immortal shadow maybe half-sister mate with him, as is her wont, apparently.

Ra's could also use proximity to the 'down and out' ex-Robin to keep tabs on whatever the hell Dick and Damian were up to, and whatever the hell Talia was up to, because by that point she'd lost her mind (or was demonically possessed; whichever).

Anyway, it's always been Ra's al Ghul's M.O. to like, snatch a Robin to get Batman more invested in his games.

----------


## Lhynn

> Post Damian era Tim really was an actual gary stu.


Odd thing to say considering dude kept failing for about about half his run and that all his victories were built up on instead of being asspulls.
Tho i guess if he was a gary stu that would make damian "super kid trained by a super assassins since he was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/detective in the entire world!!1!" and cass "Super kid trained by a super assassin since she was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/mind reader in the entire world!!!1!" at the time follow the trope even more closely in their own books. But here we have Tim "Normal kid that thanks to years of training with batman became a great detective..." which is neither very gary stuish in conception or execution, as we find him still getting his ass beaten by Ras, rather easily i may add.




> Yeah, I guess I always figured Ra's al Ghul was interested in Tim Drake because it was easy. I mean Tim was already globetrotting at the time, looking for Bruce. Ra's al Ghul had a vested interest in both finding Bruce Wayne (his golden boy) and keeping Tim close to hand because Tim was still Bruce's partnerless partner, so you have the kid, the 'detective protege' do a ton of the leg work, you keep your eye on him, and you can eventually use/attack him to draw Bruce out of hiding, if that's where he is.


And thats exactly what happened at first. He knew the kid was desperate and about to break, so he tried to recruit him into the league.

----------


## Fuzzy Barbarian

> Bane and Azrael had good runs with Ra's, the purpose of their being selected and then later dismissed served as a reminder that only Batman was the "Detective", it was just spicing up the usual formula but ultimately respecting the established canon, Lex also had a good story like that in Cornell's Action run. Meanwhile Arrow just blatantly ripped off Batman's story because its writers are hacks while in Tim's case it was just another one of the steps taken by Tim writers to respond to the rise of Damian, they were really trying to hammer how Tim is totally Bruce lite and totally Bruce's heir and totally the guy who Ra's would choose. Post Damian era Tim really was an actual gary stu.


Huh, never thought of it that way. I never really knew WHY they made Tim Batman Jr. I just assumed it was a continuation of what they started in Identity Crisis because Tim was too "normal" for the Batfam and DCU. I mean, shit, I know it wasn't intentional, but the kid went through so much tragedy in such a short amount of time, him being Batman Jr. made sense! It's just it made him boring af!

Well, for what it's worth, 'Tec is doing a good job making him the "normal" guy again.

I think Ra's would go after Tim because he's essentially a less hardcore Batman, one who Ra's thought he could shape. I mean, has Tim ever been THAT hardcore about not killing? Dick is up there with Bruce, but is Tim?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Odd thing to say considering dude kept failing for about about half his run and that all his victories were built up on instead of being asspulls.
> Tho i guess if he was a gary stu that would make damian "super kid trained by a super assassins since he was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/detective in the entire world!!1!" and cass "Super kid trained by a super assassin since she was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/mind reader in the entire world!!!1!" at the time follow the trope even more closely in their own books. But here we have Tim "Normal kid that thanks to years of training with batman became a great detective..." which is neither very gary stuish in conception or execution, as we find him still getting his ass beaten by Ras, rather easily i may add.
> 
> 
> And thats exactly what happened at first. He knew the kid was desperate and about to break, so he tried to recruit him into the league.


Gary Stu is moving towards a state of idealization and that's exactly what post Damian Tim was heading. Damian's trajectory was literally the opposite, skills or abilities or victories have no bearing whatsoever. Writers didn't use Daman's outlandish background to make him some super kid, he got a Robin costume and ended up becoming the sidekick of an ex sidekick basically unlearning everything he had been taught for a different path. Damian constantly stays away from the path that would lead him to become an actual stu. Tim meanwhile during that period practically had his own harem of women bending over backwards for him, he was suddenly bragging about being a Wayne, he was suddenly Ra's "Chosen One" and Bruce's chosen one (Damian is on the other hand consistently told he isn't by both), every character in DC couldn't help but gush about Tim and tell us how brilliant he is, this is something he still suffers from tbh, I haven't seen Lex introduced with a panel that hints towards his intelligence as often as Tim does. Post IC Drake was a text book sue, the user Kaimiciel(sth like that) has posted a few descriptions of a sue, go and see how Post IC Tim holds up to that test.

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## K. Jones

> Odd thing to say considering dude kept failing for about about half his run and that all his victories were built up on instead of being asspulls.
> Tho i guess if he was a gary stu that would make damian "super kid trained by a super assassins since he was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/detective in the entire world!!1!" and cass "Super kid trained by a super assassin since she was of an early age to become the bestest fighter/mind reader in the entire world!!!1!" at the time follow the trope even more closely in their own books. But here we have Tim "Normal kid that thanks to years of training with batman became a great detective..." which is neither very gary stuish in conception or execution, as we find him still getting his ass beaten by Ras, rather easily i may add.
> 
> 
> And thats exactly what happened at first. He knew the kid was desperate and about to break, so he tried to recruit him into the league.


I'd nearly forgotten, that's basically exactly what happens once "Road Home: Bruce Wayne" gets cooking. Nicieza's plotting might've been kind of a secondary bat-title ongoing storyline, but it was pretty consistent. And bled as well into the Azrael stuff that was going on by Hine, correlated with the "Judgment on Gotham" Azrael beats. Just weird for a Ra's al Ghul storyline to be a minor subplot, of all things, since anything Ra's al Ghul should probably be THE Alpha storyline. But that's testament to how as good as writers and their plots are in the shared space of the Bat-books, Ra's has been somewhat nerfed by overexposure the same way Joker has in the last couple decades.

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## Lhynn

> Gary Stu is moving towards a state of idealization and that's exactly what post Damian Tim was heading. Damian's trajectory was literally the opposite, skills or abilities or victories have no bearing whatsoever. Writers didn't use Daman's outlandish background to make him some super kid, he got a Robin costume and ended up becoming the sidekick of an ex sidekick basically unlearning everything he had been taught for a different path. Damian constantly stays away from the path that would lead him to become an actual stu. Tim meanwhile during that period practically had his own harem of women bending over backwards for him, he was suddenly bragging about being a Wayne, he was suddenly Ra's "Chosen One" and Bruce's chosen one (Damian is on the other hand consistently told he isn't by both), every character in DC couldn't help but gush about Tim and tell us how brilliant he is, this is something he still suffers from tbh, I haven't seen Lex introduced with a panel that hints towards his intelligence as often as Tim does. Post IC Drake was a text book sue, the user Kaimiciel(sth like that) has posted a few descriptions of a sue, go and see how Post IC Tim holds up to that test.


And this is more nonsense. Tim has always been popular with girls, that and him rejecting sex until he was old enough were kind of his thing, they were kind of his thing since Arianna days. Kinda like a running joke. Also need i remind you both dick and bruce girls? its not like it came out of nowhere or he was the only popular one.
He never bragged about being a wayne, and he even stated that he was wayne in name only. That he was a drake. Tim is Ras chosen because he was the only one sort of open to it that had the qualities Ras valued in a man. Someone with a sharp and pragmatic mind, he was humble and was suficiently competent.
Jason didnt fit, he was too emotional, dick didnt fit, he simply would never listen to Ras, Damian didnt fit, he was a brat. As for bruce chosen one? that wasnt sudden, it was made clear in NML than Tim was being trained as a replacement, not a sidekick, and if you want to insinuate that he was a marty stu in that storyarc you are out of you goddamn mind. Also this could see during his entire history as robin, since flying solo or even before that, his whole upbringing as a superhero was predicated on him calling the shots and batman an absent figure or at most a mentor for most of it.
Also every character in DC kind of turned his back on the guy that wouldnt let go, that or outright betrayed him. He couldnt deal with the fact that batman was dead, not after losing his mother, his father, his step mother, his best friend, his girlfriend, etc. It was mere luck (or comics) that dictated he was right, as there was no real evidence of this, only his unwillingness to let go of the last thing he thought he had. Also he was forced to swallow his pride and ask for the help of everyone he could think of to defeat something he had no chance at defeating alone.
As for praising tims mind, he does have a sharp one, and bruce suffers from the same. In an environment where the default action is to punch someone, those that dont tend to stand out.

Finally, absolutely none of that makes him a marty stu. Reread the trope.

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## darkseidpwns

> And this is more nonsense. Tim has always been popular with girls, that and him rejecting sex until he was old enough were kind of his thing, they were kind of his thing since Arianna days. Kinda like a running joke. Also need i remind you both dick and bruce girls? its not like it came out of nowhere or he was the only popular one.
> He never bragged about being a wayne, and he even stated that he was wayne in name only. That he was a drake. Tim is Ras chosen because he was the only one sort of open to it that had the qualities Ras valued in a man. Someone with a sharp and pragmatic mind, he was humble and was suficiently competent.
> Jason didnt fit, he was too emotional, dick didnt fit, he simply would never listen to Ras, Damian didnt fit, he was a brat. As for bruce chosen one? that wasnt sudden, it was made clear in NML than Tim was being trained as a replacement, not a sidekick, and if you want to insinuate that he was a marty stu in that storyarc you are out of you goddamn mind. Also this could see during his entire history as robin, since flying solo or even before that, his whole upbringing as a superhero was predicated on him calling the shots and batman an absent figure or at most a mentor for most of it.
> Also every character in DC kind of turned his back on the guy that wouldnt let go, that or outright betrayed him. He couldnt deal with the fact that batman was dead, not after losing his mother, his father, his step mother, his best friend, his girlfriend, etc. It was mere luck (or comics) that dictated he was right, as there was no real evidence of this, only his unwillingness to let go of the last thing he thought he had. Also he was forced to swallow his pride and ask for the help of everyone he could think of to defeat something he had no chance at defeating alone.
> As for praising tims mind, he does have a sharp one, and bruce suffers from the same. In an environment where the default action is to punch someone, those that dont tend to stand out.
> 
> Finally, absolutely none of that makes him a marty stu. Reread the trope.


This will me last post on this topic, after that we can continue elsewhere. Tim's popularity with girls is something I never questioned, what I do question is a woman being sent by Ra's to rape him because he's totally worthy. I also question a blatant Catwoman wannabe created for him just before that, who apparently had hots for him out of nowhere for NO reason at all. Dick and Bruce have natural and unique relationships, relationships with actual story, characterization and repercussions. Tim had NO relationship with the second Lynx and the wannabe rapist, NONE, they just popped out of thin air and tried to get laid and worse of all they deliberately evoke classic Batman love interests cause totally worthy and Batman lite.

He absolutely bragged about being a Wayne to Boomer and Damian, there's no question about that. The Kid forfeited his own name for being a Wayne, that's the entire crux of the Red Robin series. Jason wouldn't fit because he's too emotional? oh really? Tim should be automatically disqualified then because Ra's manipulated his emotions big time in Resurrection, he also gets emotional every time Damian opens his mouth, how about the Connor cloning and opening a church in his name? yeah totally rational decision making folks. Dick wouldn't listen? um what are now insinuating that Tim is willing to listen and work for criminals permanently? okey dokey and you're wrong anyway, Dick's history with Spyral,Deathstroke and the upcoming arc with the Court proves your assertion incorrect. Damian is out not because he's a brat but because he tossed away his Al Ghul legacy for the Batman legacy. There are also stories post NML where Tim made it clear that he didn't want to be a vigilante permanently nor did he want to be Batman or anything like him.
Bruce is criticized by his peers, Tim not so much.

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## Lhynn

Alright, ill adress these separately and we can continue on the tim thread if you want to



> This will me last post on this topic, after that we can continue elsewhere. Tim's popularity with girls is something I never questioned, what I do question is a woman being sent by Ra's to rape him because he's totally worthy.


Well, considering thats what Ras does to keep living forever, i really dont see whats wrong with it. Other than yknow, comics.




> I also question a blatant Catwoman wannabe created for him just before that, who apparently had hots for him out of nowhere for NO reason at all.


They had chemistry since they first met. Not to mention the fact that this ties to Tims first stories as robin and his training in france. Again Comics!!!
Or do you forget Tim and the original Lynx had a thing back in france?




> Tim had NO relationship with the second Lynx and the wannabe rapist, NONE, they just popped out of thin air and tried to get laid and worse of all they deliberately evoke classic Batman love interests cause totally worthy and Batman lite.


In theory it was the third lynx, because of some continuity mistake of one year later. But as i said, they had chemistry, hit it off. Its a thing that happens in real life. At no point did it feel artificial. And again, need i remind you Comics!!




> He absolutely bragged about being a Wayne to Boomer and Damian, there's no question about that. The Kid forfeited his own name for being a Wayne, that's the entire crux of the Red Robin series.


Is it? Do i need to look for the scan where someone asks him wether hes a Wayne or a Drake and he clearly says that he considers himself a Drake, except when saying hes a Wayne gets things done?




> Jason wouldn't fit because he's too emotional? oh really?


Yup, angry fellow.




> Tim should be automatically disqualified then because Ra's manipulated his emotions big time in Resurrection


No, thats the reason Ras is interested in Tim, he is pragmatic, not a fanatic. He can be reasoned with. Also he had just lost his father, best friend, girlfriend, step mother. Wasnt in the best state of mind. But sure, the offer to bring them back being tempting to him means hes "overly emotional". 




> he also gets emotional every time Damian opens his mouth


The bicker like little children. Its a fun dynamic that they have. 




> how about the Connor cloning and opening a church in his name?


Opening a church in his name? what? Sounds like either a disgusting exageration or a complete lie. About him cloning connor. Connor is a clone in the first place. And they were that close.




> yeah totally rational decision making folks.


They were in line with what a normal human being that had suffered that kind of trauma would have done. Perfectly understendable.




> um what are now insinuating that Tim is willing to listen and work for criminals permanently?


Yes, if that got the job done. Tim has often had questionable asociates. 




> Dick's history with Spyral,Deathstroke and the upcoming arc with the Court proves your assertion incorrect.


Proves what wrong? Dick is incorruptible. If anything that was the entire point of his Grayson run. Theres no negotiating with him, theres no middle ground. Thats just who he is, and Ras understands this.




> Damian is out not because he's a brat but because he tossed away his Al Ghul legacy for the Batman legacy.


No, hes out because he is in fact a brat. Because he thought Batman was cooler than his grandad or his mother. And yes, these are actual lines spoken by him, a 10 year old. You cant get any more in brat territory than with Damian.




> There are also stories post NML where Tim made it clear that he didn't want to be a vigilante permanently nor did he want to be Batman or anything like him.


Sure he did, and then countless future stories where he ends up as batman regardles, because wether he likes it or not, justice is his calling.




> Bruce is criticized by his peers, Tim not so much.


Batdickery is a term often used. Tim is a more likable chap. Thats where he was heading tho, he was p. paranoid by Red Robin and much like Bruce he had developed contingency plans to surpress even members of the league.

All in al a pretty useless post by you, you not only didnt adress your claim of him being a marty stu, but proceeded to rant about elements of Tims story that are pretty much loved by anyone that likes the character.
Now, i can understand you not liking him, but spewing baseless accusations and outright lies isnt in good taste.

----------


## Aahz

There was also this thing with Tim being impaled by Azraels sword and it just tickled because Tim was without sin (even if he did back in his own series something similar to the sin they retconned in Dicks childhood). 

Btw. why are we discussing for several sites about Tim in Dick's thread?

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## Lhynn

> So can we finally dispel with the notion that Tim is damaged for FOREVER, since it's only taken one or two good issues to get him back on track.


He isnt nearly as good as he was, and i doubt hell ever will be. This is still the reckless, egotistical prick that put his family at risk and basically ruined their lives. He is still the guy that was so bad at leading the titans they wer ethe most ineffective reincarnation of the team with the worst leadership ever. He is still the idiot that would have led them to their deaths had the timeline not been rearranged. He is still they guy that got manhandled and saved by harper, he is still the guy that called himself a genius at every chance he got. He is still the only guy on the batfamily that has yet to do anything heroic. He is still the guy that could summed up as "the tech guy" of the batfam, when he used to be so much more.

And i want these issues addressed, if we are actually not retconning all this crapfest, at the very least use it for character development. Hopefully with rebirth and him getting his past back that will come.

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## Aahz

> And i want these issues addressed, if we are actually not retconning all this crapfest, at the very least use it for character development. Hopefully with rebirth and him getting his past back that will come.


I hope they keep his parents alive and give them again a role in his live.

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## Lhynn

> I hope they keep his parents alive and give them again a role in his live.


I hope they keep his parents alive. Have them be divorced and enjoying the life of rich people. I hope the parents shown in his origin, which are certainly not jack and janet in any way shape or form, turn out to be Kobra agents, and i hope we get a couple great stories out of that. Maybe even bring King Snake for the ride.

I hope for many things, dont i?

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## phantom1592

> He isnt nearly as good as he was, and i doubt hell ever will be. This is still the reckless, egotistical prick that put his family at risk and basically ruined their lives. He is still the guy that was so bad at leading the titans they wer ethe most ineffective reincarnation of the team with the worst leadership ever. He is still the idiot that would have led them to their deaths had the timeline not been rearranged. He is still they guy that got manhandled and saved by harper, he is still the guy that called himself a genius at every chance he got. He is still the only guy on the batfamily that has yet to do anything heroic. He is still the guy that could summed up as "the tech guy" of the batfam, when he used to be so much more.
> 
> And i want these issues addressed, if we are actually not retconning all this crapfest, at the very least use it for character development. Hopefully with rebirth and him getting his past back that will come.


Some things are so bad, that the best choice is to ignore it all, sweep it under the rug and never mention it again. If the new writers never referenced nu52 Tim and just assumed pre-52 history, I think this little bump could all be blamed on a cosmic bump and life could go on normally.

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## Dataweaver

> Some things are so bad, that the best choice is to ignore it all, sweep it under the rug and never mention it again. If the new writers never referenced nu52 Tim and just assumed pre-52 history, I think this little bump could all be blamed on a cosmic bump and life could go on normally.


This.  




> I hope they keep his parents alive. Have them be divorced and enjoying the life of rich people. I hope the parents shown in his origin, which are certainly not jack and janet in any way shape or form, turn out to be Kobra agents, and i hope we get a couple great stories out of that. Maybe even bring King Snake for the ride.


Ugh; no.  I'm fine with Tim's parents as portrayed in TT#0; it was one of the few things that story did right, IMHO.  No, they're not the pre-Flashpoint Jack and Janet; but the last thing I need Tim to be is the son of wealthy globe-trotters; he's much more interesting when he grew up in a middle-class family.  Much more grounded.

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## Lhynn

I disagree, his fathers being absent and then not worked well for the character. The tension between him and jack made for some good moments and some very interesting situations. All we saw in new 52 were some robots programmed to say and do stuff that made them look human, but look the part. 

Jack was a good character too. Not to mention the awkward relationship between Bruce and Jack. It was full of personality, it was great!

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## Jadeb

> Much more grounded.


Sadly, that detail is eclipsed by the fact that the story made him an Olympic-level gymnast who's also a super hacker. And a genius. I don't think NuTim can be described as grounded in any meaningful sense.

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## phonogram12

> Some things are so bad, that the best choice is to ignore it all, sweep it under the rug and never mention it again. If the new writers never referenced nu52 Tim and just assumed pre-52 history, I think this little bump could all be blamed on a cosmic bump and life could go on normally.





> This.


A million times this.

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## Lhynn

They arent being swept under the rug, they have already been referenced a couple times in Tec.

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## phonogram12

I'm getting far more of a pre-52 vibe from Detective Tim, so so far I'm good.  :Smile:

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## Lhynn

> I'm getting far more of a pre-52 vibe from Detective Tim, so so far I'm good.


Only real detectivework tim has pulled has been in Grayson oddly enough.

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## phonogram12

> Only real detectivework tim has pulled has been in Grayson oddly enough.


I was referring to his appearances in Detective. Admittedly, he hasn't really done any sort of real detective work there, but seeing as it's a team book and only two issues in, I'm willing to give it a pass for now and am solely basing my assessment on characterization.

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## Atlanta96

> I disagree, his fathers being absent and then not worked well for the character. The tension between him and jack made for some good moments and some very interesting situations. All we saw in new 52 were some robots programmed to say and do stuff that made them look human, but look the part. 
> 
> Jack was a good character too. Not to mention the awkward relationship between Bruce and Jack. It was full of personality, it was great!


I liked it when his father was alive but his mother had passed. Tim's pre-Flashpoint relationship with his father was interesting for a mainstream superhero. Having both his parents around has done nothing for his character, and having them both dead would be a cliche.

If they're not going to completely erase the New 52 origin, then I hope they have plans to address it in a way that makes it more acceptable. I'm kind of interested to see what they do with it, even though I'd rather they just restore his Pre-Flashpoint backstory.

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## Lhynn

> I liked it when his father was alive but his mother had passed. Tim's pre-Flashpoint relationship with his father was interesting for a mainstream superhero. Having both his parents around has done nothing for his character, and having them both dead would be a cliche.


Yeah, i agree. I also liked dana.

Which is why i think if it was 10 years stolen then jack and jane and dana would still be alive. And itd be something very interesting to explore if they went with that.

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## Aahz

> Ugh; no.  I'm fine with Tim's parents as portrayed in TT#0; it was one of the few things that story did right, IMHO.  No, they're not the pre-Flashpoint Jack and Janet; but the last thing I need Tim to be is the son of wealthy globe-trotters; he's much more interesting when he grew up in a middle-class family.  Much more grounded.


Tim having super rich parents was anyway played down in the original comics imo.

But Tim and his family in TT#0 remind me much more on the original Lonnie Machin (Anarky) than on Tim.

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## phantom1592

> I liked it when his father was alive but his mother had passed. Tim's pre-Flashpoint relationship with his father was interesting for a mainstream superhero. Having both his parents around has done nothing for his character, and having them both dead would be a cliche.


This was the golden era of Tim. Tim was always 'the third robin'... anything they could do to separate him from the cliché was awesome. He HAD a father... and a stepmother. He went to school. He had normal girlfriends. He had to balance crimefighting with family responsibilities... 

I LOVED when Tim would admit that he never wanted to be Batman... he was happy being Robin. Also implied there would come a time that he would retire and go to college or something. 

Whoever it was that decided that they needed to kill his dad, make him an orphan, make him broodier and aim to be the next Batman... according to Teen Titans, a 'darker' batman REALLY dropped the ball. I always felt that Identity Crisis was the first major blow to Tim and spiraled pretty deep after that. It took away so much of what was unique to his robin and made him cliché. 

Damian showing up was the final nail really. When he was replaced as Robin without actually wanting to go... that sucked. Dick decided he didn't want to be Robin anymore... Tim had it decided for him.

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## Dataweaver

> Sadly, that detail is eclipsed by the fact that the story made him an Olympic-level gymnast who's also a super hacker. And a genius. I don't think NuTim can be described as grounded in any meaningful sense.


I don't dispute that TT#0 had major problems, definitely including everything you mentioned here.  But the reimagining of Tim's parents was one of the bright spots in an otherwise dismal story.  




> I liked it when his father was alive but his mother had passed. Tim's pre-Flashpoint relationship with his father was interesting for a mainstream superhero. Having both his parents around has done nothing for his character, and having them both dead would be a cliche.


But they haven't _been_ around; they've been hidden away in a witness protection program.  




> If they're not going to completely erase the New 52 origin, then I hope they have plans to address it in a way that makes it more acceptable. I'm kind of interested to see what they do with it, even though I'd rather they just restore his Pre-Flashpoint backstory.


Personally, I'd like to see a story arc that ends their exile from Tim's life.

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## Dataweaver

> This was the golden era of Tim. Tim was always 'the third robin'... anything they could do to separate him from the cliché was awesome. He HAD a father... and a stepmother. He went to school. He had normal girlfriends. He had to balance crimefighting with family responsibilities... 
> 
> I LOVED when Tim would admit that he never wanted to be Batman... he was happy being Robin. Also implied there would come a time that he would retire and go to college or something. 
> 
> Whoever it was that decided that they needed to kill his dad, make him an orphan, make him broodier and aim to be the next Batman... according to Teen Titans, a 'darker' batman REALLY dropped the ball. I always felt that Identity Crisis was the first major blow to Tim and spiraled pretty deep after that. It took away so much of what was unique to his robin and made him cliché. 
> 
> Damian showing up was the final nail really. When he was replaced as Robin without actually wanting to go... that sucked. Dick decided he didn't want to be Robin anymore... Tim had it decided for him.


Identity Crisis wasn't the start; Willingham's run that lead into Wargames was.  Though Identity Crisis spun directly out of that, too.  Otherwise, I fully agree with everything else you said here.

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## Aahz

> This was the golden era of Tim. Tim was always 'the third robin'... anything they could do to separate him from the cliché was awesome. He HAD a father... and a stepmother. He went to school. He had normal girlfriends. He had to balance crimefighting with family responsibilities...


Normal girlfriends weren't so uncommon. Dick had Lori Elton (and iirc some normal girlfriends that only appeared in one issue) and Jason had Rena.

But that was really Tims best era, and therefore I hope they keep his parents alive and give them finally a bigger role in Tims live again. We have Jason for dark and broody, when you make Tim the broody one (like in parts of their B&RE subplot) it feels of.

And I totally support erasing most of the stuff that happened with Tim since roughly war games, and most of the stuff that happened with Dick in that era, too.

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## josai21

This is most likely due to the fact that I only began reading DC comics during OYL, but my fav version of Tim is the one who was changed by the deaths. I felt like it was intriguing how Drake went from reluctant hero to potential batman to scorned brother then finally to ...well we won't ever know who he would have become after Bruce's return thank to the n52.

I hear Tims voice in Detective, but not his graduation. Not his maturity gained over loss and the years. This Tim has yet to gain that. This Tim reminds me of the character prior to losing Bruce.

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## Fuzzy Barbarian

I'm admittedly not a big Tim Drake fan, but that's mostly because I've only ever read his Batman Jr. phase. But all the things I've read here and there from before that era I liked, and I like the idea that there's a normal, grounded guy in the Batfamily who didn't want to be Batman. From what I can tell, 'Tec seems to be restoring that version of Tim, and I loved that scene with Steph.

Regarding his parents... the best scenes I've read all involve his dad, not his mum. But I would love his parents to somehow be able to be in his supporting cast again. I dunno, with all the stuff Rebirth retconned (ie, Wally West's entire existence lol), I think they could stand to retcon the whole "witness protection" and "his name isn't really Tim Drake" away.

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## Aahz

> Regarding his parents... the best scenes I've read all involve his dad, not his mum.


Which is not surprising since she was killed of in the same story where she was introduced, and never really became a fleshed out character.

----------


## Dataweaver

Exactly. In later years, when Tim picked up a stepmom, she was just as interesting as Jack — until she perished off-panel when Chemo was dropped on Bludhaven, not long after Jack died in Identity Crisis.

I can live with Flashpoint wiping out nearly all of Tim's history, because that includes everything from 2003 on; and while Tynion isn't restoring any of the list history (yet?), he's restoring Tim to _who he was_ before 2003, the last time he was portrayed well (save for a brief period in the middle of the Red Robin series, when he took down Ra's).

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## Lhynn

Arguably Tim as a character didnt get worse after the death of his loved ones. His reaction was perfectly natural and the the things he did were in character, and it did lead to pretty much his best storyarc. The problem was that when all was said and done Tim had lost a great supporting cast, and that would have hurt him in the long run. We never got to see it because red robin had to end tho.

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## Dataweaver

> Arguably Tim as a character didnt get worse after the death of his loved ones. His reaction was perfectly natural and the the things he did were in character, and it did lead to pretty much his best storyarc.


Oh?  Which storyarc would that be?  The crossover between him and Cassandra right afterward was decent enough; but then you got Tim being portrayed for the first time as the arrogant, manipulative know-it-all that he would become infamous for much later in New 52, leading into a story arc where the Veteran recruited him for a government-sponsored black-ops team — a direction that was thankfully abandoned once One Year Later kicked in.  Not that OYL was any better; while its treatment of Tim was an improvement over the garbage Willingham had been pumping out, Adam Beechen's treatment of Cassandra Cain was garbage.  The only story arc I can think of which could reasonably be described both as following from the apparent death of a loved one and his best story arc would be nearly five years later in the second Red Robin story arc (his confrontation with Ra's al Ghul).  And sadly, that was immediately followed by a reversion to what had become his new status quo, when it was revealed that Tim was maintaining a “hit list” not unlike the one that had gotten Bruce in trouble years before in the “Tower of Babel” JLA story arc.  




> The problem was that when all was said and done Tim had lost a great supporting cast, and that would have hurt him in the long run. We never got to see it because red robin had to end tho.


Surprisingly, the only loved one who was still dead by the time Tim took down Ra's was Jack Drake.  Chuck Dixon had retconned Stephanie's death into a sabbatical in Africa; Legion of Three Worlds had brought Conner and Bart back to life; and Bruce was revealed to have been unstuck in time rather than dead after Final Crisis.  Funny how vigilantes and superheroes always seem to come back, but civilians generally stay dead.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Surprisingly, the only loved one who was still dead by the time Tim took down Ra's was Jack Drake.  Chuck Dixon had retconned Stephanie's death into a sabbatical in Africa; Legion of Three Worlds had brought Conner and Bart back to life; and Bruce was revealed to have been unstuck in time rather than dead after Final Crisis.  Funny how vigilantes and superheroes always seem to come back, but civilians generally stay dead.


Yeah Tim's suck period was pretty much over when Red Robin kicked off. He had a decent solo book, rejoined the Teen Titans, and half a dozen of his closest allies had been brought back from the dead. It would have been interesting to see more of Tim re-integrating with the Bat-Family, or with the Teen Titans, since he didnt interact with those groups for many issues after he ditched the Robin identity. My favorite Red Robin appearance outside of his solo book was the Batman Blackest Night crossover, which I thought was great.

We could have had the greatest era of stories for Tim Drake since Dixons run and Young Justice were running side by side, but the reboot ended up giving us his worst ever, even worse than the "kill off all his loved ones and make Cass Cain evil" phase. He's in a decent team book now, so if Rebirth wave 2 gives us a new Young Justice or a Red Robin solo with a good writer, then Tim might be able to regain his popularity, instead of being an unlikable superfluous character who's only purpose in the DCU is leading the worst incarnation of Teen Titans ever.

----------


## josai21

My favorite Tim Story arcs were prior to Battle for the Cowl when he basically maintained Gotham on his own. It's this reason that pisses me off that he didn't win BFTC or at least stayed on as Robin. Dick was great as Batman, but he didnt ever really "manage" Gotham like Bruce and Tim were able to.

Next arc would basically be his whole Red Robin run. My only real complaint during that run was the limited Shiva interaction. She should have been used as a major villain in RR.

----------


## Aahz

> My only real complaint during that run was the limited Shiva interaction. She should have been used as a major villain in RR.


Shiva is not a great villain, her only motivation is to constantly prove that she is the best martial artist.

----------


## josai21

> Shiva is not a great villain, her only motivation is to constantly prove that she is the best martial artist.


Shiva is a great villain for Tim. She had a direct hand in his training and the two have had an interesting relationship of "I'm waiting until you're stronger to kill you"

I could see a story plot where Shiva purposely maneuvers Tim into becoming an elite martial artist so that she can fight him...and then respect him much like Ras did.

Might be better for an older Tim story though. Still want to see it

----------


## Aahz

> Shiva is a great villain for Tim. She had a direct hand in his training and the two have had an interesting relationship of "I'm waiting until you're stronger to kill you"
> 
> I could see a story plot where Shiva purposely maneuvers Tim into becoming an elite martial artist so that she can fight him...and then respect him much like Ras did.
> 
> Might be better for an older Tim story though. Still want to see it


This was imo done with several other characters. And since Tims stick was to be the smart guy of the Batfamily I don't see that they would turn him into a Shiva Level Marital artist (at least not as long as the other Batfamily members are still around).

----------


## Caivu

> This was imo done with several other characters. And since Tims stick was to be the smart guy of the Batfamily I don't see that they would turn him into a Shiva Level Marital artist (at least not as long as the other Batfamily members are still around).


If we're talking currently, he's probably already on her level or very close. New 52 Shiva's a joke.

----------


## Lhynn

> This was imo done with several other characters. And since Tims stick was to be the smart guy of the Batfamily I don't see that they would turn him into a Shiva Level Marital artist (at least not as long as the other Batfamily members are still around).


Why do people treat smarts as if you cant be a good fighter too? Like there needs to be some sort of balance.

----------


## phantom1592

> Why do people treat smarts as if you cant be a good fighter too? Like there needs to be some sort of balance.


Agreed. 

With the amount of training and experience... ANY Robin should be a top tier contender in a hand to had contest. I think people focus so much on Shiva/Bruce/#1 status... that they forget 'the smart one' would tear UP 95% of the human populace. 

And frankly, considering that Skill gets mixed in with Location, emotional status, weather, planning, props and situation... definitive ranks are pretty irrelevant. Tim can hold his own against anyone... and given the right situation, even grab a victory. 

Which has pretty much been status quo for all comics ever....

----------


## josai21

In several futures Tim becomes Batman. I imagine that he surpasses Shiva's level eventually.

Honestly, I feel like Tim is a younger version of Bruce in many respects. Bruce at 16 could probably not take out Jason or Dick, but he achieved that over time. Think Tim is the same way.

----------


## Lhynn

> With the amount of training and experience... ANY Robin should be a top tier contender in a hand to had contest.


Too large a gap in experience and knowledge tho. Its not like batman has stopped getting better.

----------


## Lhynn

> Honestly, I feel like Tim is a younger version of Bruce in many respects.


More like the one that was trained to become batman. Bruce and Tim dont have much in common personality wise, but their skillset is remarkably similar due to the training he gave the kid. More importantly, their methods are pretty much the same.

----------


## Lhynn

> Oh?  Which storyarc would that be?


Definitely the 1-12 Red Robin run arc. Tho its arguably 2 arcs, the second one works as just a direct continuation of the first one.
Raising from the lowest of the low against all odds.

----------


## phantom1592

> Too large a gap in experience and knowledge tho. Its not like batman has stopped getting better.


That could be debatable... Batman does a LOT of other stuff too during a day. Between Playing bruce wayne, Waynecorp, and inventing stuff... Robin is usually being put through drills. But again, that's comparing a Robin to Batman... 

 But if you take any of the world class MMA fighters, masters of their crafts, who train for big fights... and throw them against a Robin who was trained by Batman for life and death matches every single night against entire mobs of people... The Robin is going to school those 'top class' fighters. 

Even the weakest Robin is still better then the vast majority of people in the world. There are always a few who only have 'best of the best' going for them... but the differences between Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian on a purely skill level, would be so minute that it would always be the situation that determines who would 'win'.

----------


## Lhynn

> Even the weakest Robin is still better then the vast majority of people in the world. There are always a few who only have 'best of the best' going for them... but the differences between Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian on a purely skill level, would be so minute that it would always be the situation that determines who would 'win'.


Sure, but within the confines of comic books skill and the "top" take a whole new meaning. Batman has gone so many times through the gauntlet, he has beaten so many powerhouses in a row without resting that the difference in skill is simply insane. Dick is about as good in a fight as Bruce, he just lacks the resilience and sheer drive that Bruce has.

The rest of the robins are far too inexperienced to compete against either. As a comparison Dick could hold his own and even win against Ras, Tim got positively stomped even as Red Robin. Against Shiva the gap was so large that he had to cheat, and he even doubted he could actually be called a small workout for shiva. While i see tim as extremely skilled and talented, i dont see him anywhere near Those 4 and we have plenty of evidence for that.

As for skill compared to some military stooge, yeah, any robin could easily take out a whole unit. Its baffling that they are trying to pass Batwomans training as anything but a joke.

----------


## godisawesome

> Why do people treat smarts as if you cant be a good fighter too? Like there needs to be some sort of balance.


I think it's actually more of a matter of how Tim's smarts are portrayed in his fighting style and wins; all the Robins should be able to beat straight-up martial artists like Shiva, but not in the same way and never by playing to her game. In fact, I'd argue that highlighting Tim using his brain to beat an opponent and occasionally being caught flat footed by other fighters is the perfect way to keep suspense in his confrontations.

Think about Tim in his first mini-series where he was trained under Shiva and beat King Snake. The entire point of his tactics and learning there was about practicing asymmetrical warfare and integrating even simple gadgets into his fighting style: his whistle on the end of his bo distracts Shiva so he can knock her down once, and manages to turn King Snake's own game plan of fighting in darkness against him. Or during his rampage against the Council of Spiders in Red Robin: Tim uses a dagger in his staff and a grappling gun to an enemy's face to hold off people who show themselves more dangerous than LoA ninjas and even successfully hurt him before. And of course, there's Fabian Nicieza having Tim poison Shiva's chocolates before they even fight.

(On a similar note, I think that portraying Shiva as enjoying this "customization" of her pupils and playing up the dichotomy of her training multiple heroes and then challenging them to a fight works great with her namesake; she figures out that Bruce needs more sink or swim training and sets him against ninja warriors who excel in different disciplines, she encourages Tim's trickery and cunning, and she reteaches Cassandra her body language skills. She molds people into the best possible warriors they can be and tests them herself.)

It's also why I don't like New 52 Tim's fighting skills; writers and artists tended to rely on overpowering his wings to make him a formidable fighter. They had him stab Trigon in the eyes, take cover from heavy machine gun fire behind them, and even somehow put a short beatdown on Superboy using them. None of the uses were particularly clever, and it always felt like Tim was using a cheat code with non-existent metal and pseudo-science instead of brain power and training.

----------


## The Whovian

> Sure, but within the confines of comic books skill and the "top" take a whole new meaning. Batman has gone so many times through the gauntlet, he has beaten so many powerhouses in a row without resting that the difference in skill is simply insane. Dick is about as good in a fight as Bruce, he just lacks the resilience and sheer drive that Bruce has.
> 
> The rest of the robins are far too inexperienced to compete against either. As a comparison Dick could hold his own and even win against Ras, Tim got positively stomped even as Red Robin. Against Shiva the gap was so large that he had to cheat, and he even doubted he could actually be called a small workout for shiva. While i see tim as extremely skilled and talented, i dont see him anywhere near Those 4 and we have plenty of evidence for that.


I agree. But it was cool watching Tim kick the crud out of Shiva though.

----------


## Lhynn

> I think it's actually more of a matter of how Tim's smarts are portrayed in his fighting style and wins; all the Robins should be able to beat straight-up martial artists like Shiva, but not in the same way and never by playing to her game. In fact, I'd argue that highlighting Tim using his brain to beat an opponent and occasionally being caught flat footed by other fighters is the perfect way to keep suspense in his confrontations.
> 
> Think about Tim in his first mini-series where he was trained under Shiva and beat King Snake. The entire point of his tactics and learning there was about practicing asymmetrical warfare and integrating even simple gadgets into his fighting style: his whistle on the end of his bo distracts Shiva so he can knock her down once, and manages to turn King Snake's own game plan of fighting in darkness against him. Or during his rampage against the Council of Spiders in Red Robin: Tim uses a dagger in his staff and a grappling gun to an enemy's face to hold off people who show themselves more dangerous than LoA ninjas and even successfully hurt him before. And of course, there's Fabian Nicieza having Tim poison Shiva's chocolates before they even fight.
> 
> (On a similar note, I think that portraying Shiva as enjoying this "customization" of her pupils and playing up the dichotomy of her training multiple heroes and then challenging them to a fight works great with her namesake; she figures out that Bruce needs more sink or swim training and sets him against ninja warriors who excel in different disciplines, she encourages Tim's trickery and cunning, and she reteaches Cassandra her body language skills. She molds people into the best possible warriors they can be and tests them herself.)
> 
> It's also why I don't like New 52 Tim's fighting skills; writers and artists tended to rely on overpowering his wings to make him a formidable fighter. They had him stab Trigon in the eyes, take cover from heavy machine gun fire behind them, and even somehow put a short beatdown on Superboy using them. None of the uses were particularly clever, and it always felt like Tim was using a cheat code with non-existent metal and pseudo-science instead of brain power and training.


52 tim aside, which yes, was a really dumb development and felt more like they were overcompensanting for constantly screwing the character in other areas. I always felt that Tim was a great allrounder, fast, cunning, with a clear mind, athletic, able to capitalize on enemies mistakes easily and a sponge when it came to learning. Stealth, martial arts, detectivework, security, coding, genetics, electronics, everything that was thrown his way he assimilated very fast. Balancing family, friends, school, the training, the robin act, girlfriend. Kid was an overachiever from an early age, and while it may seem unrealistic at first, i need to remind you that there are people like that in real life.

Watching that balancing act unfold, watching him struggle, watching him fail, learn and succeed. Thats what i love about the character. Which is why i dont believe theres "balance" there, him being smart doesnt make him any weaker.

Also shiva wasnt the only one that tailored the lessons to each robin, batman did the same.

----------


## Atlanta96

I think the Robins are at their best when their methods of beating their opponents are unique and compliment each character's personality. Dick is such an experienced acrobat and martial artist that he can take down most enemies with speed and precision, Jason's strength is his ruthlessness and aggression, Tim is the most cerebral fighter who owes most of his major victories to strategy and cunning instead of speed or brute force, Damian is tricky to nail down but at the moment I'd say he's a combination of all those traits who's on a fast track to being the most effective crime fighter in the Bat-Family, unless something happens to lessen his abilities.

Tim is definitely better off ditching the flight suit, it made him look worse than ever because he still lost so often despite it being overpowered. Like he was so bad at fighting that they needed to soup up his equipment to give him an edge, and he still lagged behind everyone else including violent anti-hero Jason. Looking forward to seeing Tim outsmart an opponent, and then react to his victory with total confidence and humbleness. That's the moment I'll be sure that the old Tim Drake is back for good.

----------


## Lhynn

> I agree. But it was cool watching Tim kick the crud out of Shiva though.


Probably his most satisfying victory. Watching Shiva paralyzed was priceless. They really need to bring back her their dynamic was too good.

----------


## josai21

> Probably his most satisfying victory. Watching Shiva paralyzed was priceless. They really need to bring back her their dynamic was too good.


It's my second fav.

First is how he beat Ras. For so long they had played up Tim's similarities to Bruce, but then showed how different he was. How he was his own man. Throw in the small Captain Boomerang story afterwards and I truly feel like that was Tim becoming his own hero apart from Batman.

----------


## Lhynn

> I think the Robins are at their best when their methods of beating their opponents are unique and compliment each character's personality. Dick is such an experienced acrobat and martial artist that he can take down most enemies with speed and precision, Jason's strength is his ruthlessness and aggression, Tim is the most cerebral fighter who owes most of his major victories to strategy and cunning instead of speed or brute force, Damian is tricky to nail down but at the moment I'd say he's a combination of all those traits who's on a fast track to being the most effective crime fighter in the Bat-Family, unless something happens to lessen his abilities.


Damian is neither strong nor has good judgement on a fight. He isnt a naturally agile like dick, quicker to temper than jason (tho he is still immature so im not being fair) and overconfident. Tbh i have no idea what hell become. From the looks of it a farmer of some description? maybe a veterinarian?

Edit: im kidding btw, i dont dislike the brat, i just think he gets too much credit.




> Tim is definitely better off ditching the flight suit, it made him look worse than ever because he still lost so often despite it being overpowered.


The suit had nothing to do with that, it was just bad writing.




> Looking forward to seeing Tim outsmart an opponent, and then react to his victory with total confidence0 and humbleness. That's the moment I'll be sure that the old Tim Drake is back for good.


We got a bit of that when he destroyed the order of saint dumas. was the first Tim moment we had in the new 52. Dispatched azrael while fooling the megalomaniac that was trying to get to him with flattery.
Wouldnt be surprised if Tynion was the one insisted on doing it that way.

----------


## Aahz

> Why do people treat smarts as if you cant be a good fighter too? Like there needs to be some sort of balance.


Because for a good team book (which the Batfamily events are in the end) you need some sort of balance between the protagonists. Tims role at the moment is to be smartest of the Robin. If you make him martial artists of Shivas level he would also suddenly be the best fighter of the Batfamily and that would destroy the balance. And I don't see that they would let Tim surpass Bruce and Dick in that regard. You could promote everybody to a Shiva level fighter, but then the whole thing becomes kind of pointless.

----------


## Vinsanity

Good to see in the first half of the TT Annual which no one probably reads, that Tim was dancing and chilling out. Hooray!!!

To me Dick is the most agile, Jason is the most powerful, Tim is the most cerebral and Damian is the most technical. In terms of fighting.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The suit had nothing to do with that, it was just bad writing.
> 
> 
> We got a bit of that when he destroyed the order of saint dumas. was the first Tim moment we had in the new 52. Dispatched azrael while fooling the megalomaniac that was trying to get to him with flattery.
> Wouldnt be surprised if Tynion was the one insisted on doing it that way.


That's what I mean. Having him written so badly and incompetently while giving him such powerful tech made his character look really bad. He could fly and go up against powerful characters like Trigon and Superboy, but was still the least effective of the Robins throughout the New 52. And what story did he take down St Dumas in? Haven't read that one.

----------


## Aahz

> And what story did he take down St Dumas in? Haven't read that one.


Batman and Robin Eternal.

One of the problem is that the writers are not really consistent in what tech the characters have, what it can do and how the characters are using it.

B&RE completly ignored that Tims wings can be used as weapons, while they transformed Jason arm blades (which were actually sort of glider wings when they first appeared in RHatO) in weapons but never let him use them in any fight after the one with Cass. And i have really no idea where the telescope katanas in the final battle came from and why Tim and Dick should use them instead of their usual staffs or sticks.

And the discription of the Hypnos in the last Grayson annual was also not really consistent with how they where described before.

----------


## Lhynn

> Because for a good team book (which the Batfamily events are in the end) you need some sort of balance between the protagonists.


No you dont, you can have more and less capable members. This is not a freaking multiplayer video game.




> Tims role at the moment is to be smartest of the Robin.


And i hate that. Tim should be Tim. With whatever that entails. 




> If you make him martial artists of Shivas level


No one is asking for that. I didnt even suggest that.




> he would also suddenly be the best fighter of the Batfamily and that would destroy the balance.


Hes not even close to being the best fighter in the batfamily, Also how does this relate to what i was asking. Finally, balance is a stupid idea. 




> And I don't see that they would let Tim surpass Bruce and Dick in that regard.


Hell eventually surpass bruce. Not Dick tho, Dick is on his way to becoming the best if he lives enough to get there, dude takes too many unnecesary risks. 




> You could promote everybody to a Shiva level fighter, but then the whole thing becomes kind of pointless.


Seriously bro, no one is asking for that. Also as stated before, shiva is a joke in this universe.

----------


## Aioros22

If he`s "not even close to be the best fighter in the batfamily" then this shouldn`t be an argument. That`s what he tends to be in terms of general fighting prowess.

----------


## Lhynn

> Good to see in the first half of the TT Annual which no one probably reads, that Tim was dancing and chilling out. Hooray!!!


You mean annual 3? or which annual?

----------


## KrustyKid

> You mean annual 3? or which annual?


The one that came out yesterday, which was listed as annual 2.

----------


## Lhynn

> The one that came out yesterday, which was listed as annual 2.


Yeah found it. Had it confused with new 52 titans annual. These are the regular volume 5 titans annual.

To be fair i found both new 52 and annual 2 to be good. More and more im starting to believe most things wrong with the teen titans are related to superboy.

----------


## Aahz

> No one is asking for that. I didnt even suggest that.
> Hes not even close to being the best fighter in the batfamily, Also how does this relate to what i was asking. Finally, balance is a stupid idea.
> Hell eventually surpass bruce. Not Dick tho, Dick is on his way to becoming the best if he lives enough to get there, dude takes too many unnecesary risks.


If one wants to promote him to a level where Shiva considers him worthy to fight (which was what josai21 suggested and i was referring to) he has to be that good, if Dick was still better Shiva would challenge Dick.




> No you dont, you can have more and less capable members. This is not a freaking multiplayer video game.


Depends on the characters, if one is a comic relief or much younger than the rest he can less capable, if not you get easily in situation where you push one character of the expense of everybody else, that really sucks for the fans of the other characters.

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## Lhynn

> which was what josai21 suggested


Then you should answer to him.




> Depends on the characters, if one is a comic relief or much younger than the rest he can less capable, if not you get easily in situation where you push one character of the expense of everybody else, that really sucks for the fans of the other characters.


If you truly see the characters for what they are, instead of going out of your way to make everyone banalced, then every character will naturally get their opportunity. They are heroes for a reason, their relative power levels arent as important as what they do when it counts. Issues that merely pander to fans are usually a waste of time anyway.

----------


## Aahz

> Then you should answer to him.


That what I did in the post that you answered too.

----------


## josai21

> That what I did in the post that you answered too.


I don't think bring Tim up to Shiva level is that much of a balance issue. Dick beat Ras in a good fight. Tim was getting slaughtered by Ras at the end of RR. 

Slowly bring Tim up to Shiva's level doesn't diminish other bat characters if they also show continued growth. It's about character development. I would love to see Tims and Shiva's relationship explored further.

----------


## Lhynn

Oh my god, now i have to take it all back. Teen titans became self aware at the 20th issue of the second run of the current continuity. With Tim acknowledging hes been doing a very poor job, beating himself over it and  actually taking steps to fix it. The annual builds on this some more.

Kinda too late, but still thankful for it.

----------


## godisawesome

I feel like the New 52 Teen Titans had a lot of ghost written elements from editorial in all forms. Either way, it's not good that two seperate runs of TT ended with a meta commentary on their runs, both of which didn't seem that flattering. Lobdell tried to exit his run with some grace and saying goodbye to the fans he did get on the book while meekly trying to justify it, and this one is basically saying that they know they messed up.

And y'know what, I was a big enough fan of FabNic's run on both Robin and Red Robin that a part of me genuinely doesn't feel it's good that Tim's parents are back and he's in a costume. Yeah, editorial lost its mind and killed half of Tim's people, but he clearly wasn't broken. Y'know what was? New 52 Teen Titans.

----------


## Lhynn

> And y'know what, I was a big enough fan of FabNic's run on both Robin and Red Robin that a part of me genuinely doesn't feel it's good that Tim's parents are back and he's in a costume. Yeah, editorial lost its mind and killed half of Tim's people, but he clearly wasn't broken. Y'know what was? New 52 Teen Titans.


Agree with you. from his losses he grew a lot, and i couldnt have been an easy thing to pull off as a writer.

How much of TT failure do you think was due to the editoral mandate of making every hero miserable?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I feel like the New 52 Teen Titans had a lot of ghost written elements from editorial in all forms. Either way, it's not good that two seperate runs of TT ended with a meta commentary on their runs, both of which didn't seem that flattering. Lobdell tried to exit his run with some grace and saying goodbye to the fans he did get on the book while meekly trying to justify it, and this one is basically saying that they know they messed up.


From the looks of it, Ben Percy's TT run might end the same way. Unless Percy is surprisingly good at writing team books, I think our only chance of having a good teen heroes comic is a new Young Justice series. It would be interesting to have 6 different Bat-Family members all leading their own team at once. Only downside would be the inevitable crossover where all the teams fight each other for contrived reasons.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh my god, now i have to take it all back. Teen titans became self aware at the 20th issue of the second run of the current continuity. With Tim acknowledging hes been doing a very poor job, beating himself over it and  actually taking steps to fix it. The annual builds on this some more.
> 
> Kinda too late, but still thankful for it.


Not just in the annual, but the previous issue right before this annual.

----------


## Lhynn

> Not just in the annual, but the previous issue right before this annual.


Yeah, amazing how once they slow down the pace, tackle one story element at the time and try to give everyone their proper voice the quality of the book goes up up up. Read them after it because it got me curious. 

Had actually give up on it by issue 19. Who would have thought that 20 would actually be good for a change.

----------


## Fuzzy Barbarian

> From the looks of it, Ben Percy's TT run might end the same way. Unless Percy is surprisingly good at writing team books, I think our only chance of having a good teen heroes comic is a new Young Justice series. It would be interesting to have 6 different Bat-Family members all leading their own team at once. Only downside would be the inevitable crossover where all the teams fight each other for contrived reasons.


Yeah, I am REALLY cautious about Percy's Teen Titans. The guy's writing on Green Arrow is as subtle as a brick and he seems to really want to be trending on Tumblr ("obectify me and I'll make you bleed" is one of the most embarrassing things I've ever read). That or he's just... really, really mediocre, weird and boring (his Green Arrow arc before Rebirth, which weirdly decided bringing back Catalina "raped Dick Grayson" Flores was a good idea).

But he's got Damian and Wally II, so I'm gonna give it a go, at the very least. But since those two are also regulars in other, better (Flash) or probably better (Super Sons) series, I won't be that sad. At least Tim doesn't have to be part of it.

----------


## josai21

I wouldn't mind a Young Justice series after this Detective Run with Tim, Connor, and Cassie. They could play it up as the Second Trinity. Or throw in Bart and a few others from the old days. We'd have 

Barbara: Birds of Pray (Steph/Cass could end up here)
Jason: Outlaws
Dick: Titans
Damian: Teen Titans
Tim: Young Justice

Interesting...

----------


## Vinsanity

> Oh my god, now i have to take it all back. Teen titans became self aware at the 20th issue of the second run of the current continuity. With Tim acknowledging hes been doing a very poor job, beating himself over it and  actually taking steps to fix it. The annual builds on this some more.
> 
> Kinda too late, but still thankful for it.


I did enjoy him getting a little loose on the dfloor with Cassie and Tanya. Man, I'm gonna miss the funny little quirky interactions between Tanya and Tim, the sexual tension between Cassie and Tim and all that is Bunker. I think Lobdell wrote Bunker and Cat Grant the best. lol

Kind of gonna miss these TT weirdly.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I wouldn't mind a Young Justice series after this Detective Run with Tim, Connor, and Cassie. They could play it up as the Second Trinity. Or throw in Bart and a few others from the old days. We'd have 
> 
> Barbara: Birds of Pray (Steph/Cass could end up here)
> Jason: Outlaws
> Dick: Titans
> Damian: Teen Titans
> Tim: Young Justice
> 
> Interesting...


Throw in a rebooted Kon and I'd be down with that.

----------


## TRS80

A Young Justice spinoff from Tec would be awesome. The stealthy proactive arm of the batfamily. I can see it now. An amalgam of the TV show and original comic book. Happy Harbor Cave. Batman says "Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra... meet Megan, Conner, and Bart. To the rest of the world. They don't exist. And that's how you are going to save it." Gear it toward young adults. Oooh, the fanboy is strong with this one.

----------


## Fuzzy Barbarian

> A Young Justice spinoff from Tec would be awesome. The stealthy proactive arm of the batfamily. I can see it now. An amalgam of the TV show and original comic book. Happy Harbor Cave. Batman says "Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra... meet Megan, Conner, and Bart. To the rest of the world. They don't exist. And that's how you are going to save it." Gear it toward young adults. Oooh, the fanboy is strong with this one.


Eh. "Pro-active" superhero teams rarely, rarely work out, so I could do without that. Plus, the stealthy thing I'm not into. Even in Young Justice it felt a little forced, and really, you have to force it for it to work. I'd much rather Tim get a straight-up team book, but with Titans and Teen Titans, that's not happening. Unless Titans REALLY focuses on the Doctor Manhattan stuff, then I can see Young Justice being a second teen heroes series that crosses over with Teen Titans every now and then. I dunno, have one be about training teen heroes and the other just a teen superteam, if you have to.

Plus, I'm not for Cass being on a team full of superpowered people like that. I think a better way to go about it would be for Tim to take up that offer to move to... wherever. Steph goes with him, and the two eventually accidentally start up Young Justice with Conner, Miss Martian and maybe Jackson Hyde (or Lorena Marquez if the Aquaman writers wanna use Jackson). I doubt we'll be seeing Bart for a while, since he's kinda been really screwed up and there's already two new speedsters, so I can see the Flash editors not wanting to overload it (heck, the entire first story arc is about random civilians getting speed powers, and I can see that ending with the introduction of Jesse Quick).

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## Lhynn

I just want a Tim solo book. He can carry it, i know he can coach, hes ready! Send him outthere.

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## KrustyKid

> I just want a Tim solo book. He can carry it, i know he can coach, hes ready! Send him outthere.


Agreed. If they don't go that direction, I would also be ok with a book centered just around Tim, Steph, and Cass. The combination of the three is enjoyable enough.

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## josai21

If Tim got a solo, what stories would everyone like to see?

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## Atlanta96

> If Tim got a solo, what stories would everyone like to see?


Tim traveling the world, dealing with various super villains and organizations that would be considered out of his league, and defeating them in unexpected ways. Like how he dealt with Ra's and the League in Red Robin. While he's doing this, he's also setting up the new Young Justice. He locates the real Kon El, real Bart Allen, and makes plans for his own superhero team that isn't an utter failure. He's intent on not screwing up this time.

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## Lhynn

As red robin tim is a very driven hero, He doesnt wait for stuff to come to him, he quickly takes initiative. Other than that a Tim book would be him taking on something much bigger than himself. He is the eternal underdog.

I could see him infiltrating Kobra, or taking on the corrupt element of S.T.A.R. labs, maybe matching wits with Luthor.

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## josai21

Tim vs Luthor would be fascinating. Going against someone smarter than himself who isn't Batman (though Batman being smarter than Tim is slowly becoming more debatable).

Tim would get crushed...great character development though.

Love the idea of Tim traveling the world and essentially creating a backup to the Justice League. The Titans and Young Justice were more happenstance than intentional, but I could see Tim "planning" Justice League 2.0

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## The Whovian

> Tim vs Luthor would be fascinating. *Going against someone smarter than himself who isn't Batman* (though Batman being smarter than Tim is slowly becoming more debatable).
> 
> Tim would get crushed...great character development though.


Wait, what? No way is Luther smarter than Tim.

----------


## josai21

Sarcasm? Lol Luthor has been WOGed as smarter than Bruce. Top smartest in DC are supposedly Luthor, Mr. Terrific, and Bruce

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## The Whovian

> Sarcasm? Lol Luthor has been WOGed as smarter than Bruce. Top smartest in DC are supposedly Luthor, Mr. Terrific, and Bruce


Depends on what your definition of smart is. Do you mean technologically smarter? Intellectually smarter? Deduction skills? Tactical skills?

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## KrustyKid

> Depends on what your definition of smart is. Do you mean technologically smarter? Intellectually smarter? Deduction skills? Tactical skills?


Deduction skills, Drake has it. Tactical skills is close, depending on how you look at it. The other two categories Lex has a solid edge due to experience.

----------


## The Whovian

Tim has the edge in deduction skills. His are second only to Batman in the DCU. This is not my opinion, it was stated in the comics. I also think Tim has the edge in tactical as well.

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## KrustyKid

Which I agree with for the most part. Though I wouldn't give Drake the complete nod in tactics, it's very close. Lex is strong in this department as well as shown with his many encounters with Superman. So I'd give it a toss-up depending on situation.

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## josai21

Thinking out loud...the Luthor storyline could easily center around Connor. Be how Tim and him meet. Let the 52 Superboy be lost the Rebirth...

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## godisawesome

> If Tim got a solo, what stories would everyone like to see?


I'd like a back and forth between the Red Robin solo status quo and the Dixon throwback it looks like we're getting in 'Tec.

Tim attends Ivy University for a good chunk of the week and lives with his parents during that time, albeit with him clearly trying to protect them and maybe being paranoid and standoffish about them. However, on his weekends, holidays, and in study-abroad classes Tim works abroad attempting to assist left over remains of Batman Inc and his own civilian subsidiary to that organization, Neon Knights. Tim's M.O is to try and take down international criminal organizations by targeting them on multiple fronts. So he's very specifically targeting larger groups with lateral warfare and by forging alliances and attempting to destroy their infrastructure and create defections in their recruitment drives.

Here's the big change to his current status quo for this story: at least some of his adventures in Ore-Flashpoint are back, in particular his first mini and the Red Robin run, and his history is tweaked. Tim did not hack into the Penguin's bank account and rob him like an idiot. In fact, Tim did nothing to gain Penguin's wrath, because Penguin actually targeted Jack and Janet Drake because they testified against him in a criminal case. Tim and his family were initially rescued by Jason and Bruce, and that's the catalyst for Tim being interested in Batman and Robin, with him using his considerable intelligence to assist Jason and piece together who's who after Jason dies. 

His supporting cast includes Ives (who he stays in contact with even when abroad by playing video games online with him), Lonnie Machin (active as an Internet vigilante, who he has a variable "professional" relationship with, but is also a good person to talk to), and his own parent (I'd actually like to see his mom be the bigger person he interacts with this time around, just for a change up). His enemies include the General (I like him as an archenemy), Lynx (I'd really embrace the ambiguity with which HKPD would view an interloping American vigilante), the rest of the Golden Dragons (now confirmed to be King Snake's Ghost Dragon's reformed), and the Penguin (with the idea being Tim has to dismantle the entire organization under Ozzy to get his parents safety.)

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## Aioros22

> Depends on what your definition of smart is. Do you mean technologically smarter? Intellectually smarter? Deduction skills? Tactical skills?


Technology smarter is a non issue. Luthor is DCU`s most profiled "mad scientist", Tim isn`t. Tactically he likely gets the nod as well considering how often he plays others villains and schemes at his whim. 

Tim got deductive because that`s a Bat thing. 

Generally speaking I find it hard to believe most writers would, even in generally broad terms, write anyone save Bruce among these characters as having the sort of mind prowess or IQ that Luthor usually does.

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## Lhynn

Ah you see, i talked about wits, not scientific prowess. i believe they could be on a rather even playing field there. As while one is good at manipulation and misdirection, the other is good at detecting. Both are good at preparation.

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## Aioros22

Maybe, but it wasn`t that long ago that he was called the greatest human intelect of the whole planet.

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## The Whovian

> Maybe, but it wasn`t that long ago that he was called the greatest human intelect of the whole planet.


You could say the same thing about Reed in the MU, but that doesn't make him a better strategist or tactical character than Captain America.

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## Vinsanity

> If Tim got a solo, what stories would everyone like to see?


Tim goes to college outside Gotham and deals with jugging college and stuff. Give him some rogue gallery and bingo bango you're good to go. Guest appearances by Cassie (Wonder Girl) as a former ex (gives a nice dynamic), Bunker (Bunker is needed everywhere), Tanya (Power Girl), Bruce (Duh), Dick (Duh), Babs (Duh), Jason (Duh), and Steph (sadly duh).

Keep it simple, keep it kind of lightish and that's all you need.

----------


## Aahz

> His enemies include the General (I like him as an archenemy), Lynx (I'd really embrace the ambiguity with which HKPD would view an interloping American vigilante), the rest of the Golden Dragons (now confirmed to be King Snake's Ghost Dragon's reformed), and the Penguin (with the idea being Tim has to dismantle the entire organization under Ozzy to get his parents safety.)


The General would imo more fun as villain for Damian or for the We Are Robin Kids (or Duke). And they should anyway deage him again into a small kid, the grown up General in Red Robin was imo a bad idea, that took away what made him unique.

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## Lhynn

Ulysses would make a good Damian villain, i agree.

----------


## TRS80

After thinking about it. And reading others posts. A Tim, Cass, and Steph centric title about the three of them adapting to life would be the best way to move forward. Not quite as campy as burnside but lighter than Tec. And would appeal to fans of both titles. Tim going to college, Stephanie deciding her life goal, and Cass learning to have a normal life. And whatever else college age young adults do. Forming another team right now is redundant.

Anarky would be a perfect antagonist. Someone who can match Tim's wits. His Moriarty. I think in this day and age we could get some sympathy for Lonnie. Anti-authoritarianism is popular right now.

----------


## Aioros22

> You could say the same thing about Reed in the MU, but that doesn't make him a better strategist or tactical character than Captain America.


You wouldn`t because that part is consistantly sold to Captain America over everyone else. Is Tim consistantly so? Dick is historically better in that regard, particularly with the recent material about how Tim feels about his own leadership with the Titans.

----------


## KrustyKid

> After thinking about it. And reading others posts. A Tim, Cass, and Steph centric title about the three of them adapting to life would be the best way to move forward. Not quite as campy as burnside but lighter than Tec. And would appeal to fans of both titles. Tim going to college, Stephanie deciding her life goal, and Cass learning to have a normal life. And whatever else college age young adults do. Forming another team right now is redundant.
> 
> Anarky would be a perfect antagonist. Someone who can match Tim's wits. His Moriarty. I think in this day and age we could get some sympathy for Lonnie. Anti-authoritarianism is popular right now.


Yep, I'm practically in the same boat as you brotha(or sista/depending). There's enough to play off of with the three. And given the track record of the New-52 I don't see any of them getting their own solo at the moment. So a book starring the trio certainly would work for me.

----------


## Aahz

> Anarky would be a perfect antagonist. Someone who can match Tim's wits. His Moriarty. I think in this day and age we could get some sympathy for Lonnie. Anti-authoritarianism is popular right now.


More his Red X or Kaito Kid. Lonnie is not really a villain.

----------


## Lhynn

> You wouldn`t because that part is consistantly sold to Captain America over everyone else. Is Tim consistantly so? Dick is historically better in that regard, particularly with the recent material about how Tim feels about his own leadership with the Titans.


Actually no, Dicks leadership is even more bafflingly incompetent than Tim is. Its just that for some reason Dick enemies seem to be equally incompetent, while Tim consistently goes against very capable and prepared foes.

The real problem is that we are ok with Dick failing at planning, he can still keep a team together and get them through thick and thin. But Tim shouldnt get blindsided the way he constantly is, its clearly below him and what the character is known for, thus the outrage about how he is depicted.

----------


## KrustyKid

Of everyone in the Bat-Family, of Tim's relationships which one do you find the most interesting? Which one would you like to see explored more as far as Rebirth is concerned?

----------


## Aioros22

> Actually no, Dicks leadership is even more bafflingly incompetent than Tim is. Its just that for some reason Dick enemies seem to be equally incompetent, while Tim consistently goes against very capable and prepared foes.
> 
> The real problem is that we are ok with Dick failing at planning, he can still keep a team together and get them through thick and thin. But Tim shouldnt get blindsided the way he constantly is, its clearly below him and what the character is known for, thus the outrage about how he is depicted.


Wolfman`s/Jimenez/Perez Titans = incompetent leadership? 

Not sure I get it chief.

----------


## Caivu

> Of everyone in the Bat-Family, of Tim's relationships which one do you find the most interesting? Which one would you like to see explored more as far as Rebirth is concerned?


He's had the least amount of interaction with both Cassandra and Batwoman, so I'm interested to see how both of those develop.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Of everyone in the Bat-Family, of Tim's relationships which one do you find the most interesting? Which one would you like to see explored more as far as Rebirth is concerned?


Tim and Damian is the most interesting, seeing them go from hating each other's guts to reluctantly cooperating has been interesting so far. I'd like them to take it a step further and have them actually get along, like they did with Tim and Jason. Also Tim and Dick's interactions have been sorely missed.

----------


## The Whovian

> Of everyone in the Bat-Family, of Tim's relationships which one do you find the most interesting? Which one would you like to see explored more as far as Rebirth is concerned?


Damian, Cass, Steph, Kate and Dick. And Bruce. Everyone except Jason

----------


## Vinsanity

> Of everyone in the Bat-Family, of Tim's relationships which one do you find the most interesting? Which one would you like to see explored more as far as Rebirth is concerned?



Most interesting? Jason
More explored? Kate.

----------


## Lhynn

> More explored? Kate.


Why kate? they dont seem to have anything in common.

----------


## Caivu

> Why kate? they dont seem to have anything in common.


That's what makes it interesting. Getting two characters with dissimilar attitudes to interact is a very good move from a dramatic standpoint.

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## Lhynn

> That's what makes it interesting. Getting two characters with dissimilar attitudes to interact is a very good move from a dramatic standpoint.


Sure but, its not like they are opposite to eachother or that there would be some friction between them. I mean, i wouldnt mind seeing it, but i think it would be better to explore his relationship with bruce more, because its frankly non existant at this point, same with dick.

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## KrustyKid

> Sure but, its not like they are opposite to eachother or that there would be some friction between them. I mean, i wouldnt mind seeing it, but i think it would be better to explore his relationship with bruce more, because its frankly non existant at this point, same with dick.


Given what we saw with the last issue I'm sure we'll be getting some Bruce x Tim connection. I'm also interested to see how thing's play out between him and Kate, since this is pretty much new ground.

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## Atlanta96

Good news fellow Tim Drake fans, Detective Comics is officially a massive hit! Both issues sold over 90,000 copies, and only 2000 readers dropped the book between those issues. Even compared to other Rebirth books, that's impressive. Tim isn't going anywhere!

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## Lhynn

Well, 4 fan favorites plus batman being well written. Hopefully this will be a good jumping point for all of them to other books.

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## Aahz

> Good news fellow Tim Drake fans, Detective Comics is officially a massive hit! Both issues sold over 90,000 copies, and only 2000 readers dropped the book between those issues. Even compared to other Rebirth books, that's impressive. Tim isn't going anywhere!


It is roughly double what it sold the month before, for a relauch thats not so impressive, you can usually expect that the sales go down reactively quickly down by 30%-50%.

Just for comparisson Batman Rebirth sold nearly 200.000 and Batman #1 280.000 issues.

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## Atlanta96

> It is roughly double what it sold the month before, for a relauch thats not so impressive, you can usually expect that the sales go down reactively quickly down by 30%-50%.
> 
> Just for comparisson Batman Rebirth sold nearly 200.000 and Batman #1 280.000 issues.


Well it only lost 2000 readers between the 1st and 2nd issues, that's impressive. Most series have the bulk of their sales drop right away. Almost everyone who picked up 934 stuck around for 935. And the fact that there was no Detective Comics #1 might have led to lower 1st issue sales.

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## Aahz

> Well it only lost 2000 readers between the 1st and 2nd issues, that's impressive. Most series have the bulk of their sales drop right away. Almost everyone who picked up 934 stuck around for 935. And the fact that there was no Detective Comics #1 might have led to lower 1st issue sales.


It's unusual but usually you have to wait a little bit longer to see how successfull it is. In 2011 the sales for Detective stayed also quite constant for quite a while (and even a little bit higher than now).
But like I said for Tec' 90.000 is not so impressive.

Green Arrow had for example 4 times the sales it had before the relaunch.

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## Atlanta96

> It's unusual but usually you have to wait a little bit longer to see how successfull it is. In 2011 the sales for Detective stayed also quite constant for quite a while (and even a little bit higher than now).
> But like I said for Tec' 90.000 is not so impressive.
> 
> Green Arrow had for example 4 times the sales it had before the relaunch.


But Green Arrow lost 10,000 readers between the Rebirth and #1 issues, despite all other DC books actually gaining readers after their Rebirth issues. It's not holding audience interest as well as 'Tec.

And I know that by the 6th issue a lot of people will have dropped 'Tec, I'm just saying it's off to a good start. And I do think it's current sales are closer to the long term average than most other new series, because it lacks a potential collectors item #1 issue to boost sales.

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## SXVA

> Good news fellow Tim Drake fans, Detective Comics is officially a massive hit! Both issues sold over 90,000 copies, and only 2000 readers dropped the book between those issues. Even compared to other Rebirth books, that's impressive. Tim isn't going anywhere!


Yes! As it should be. Tim Drake and Stephanie are awesome.

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## SXVA

Next. After this proves once again Tim Drake is a superstar like he's always been there should be a tv series made with Tim and Stephanie.

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## darkseidpwns

> But Green Arrow lost 10,000 readers between the Rebirth and #1 issues, despite all other DC books actually gaining readers after their Rebirth issues. It's not holding audience interest as well as 'Tec.
> 
> And I know that by the 6th issue a lot of people will have dropped 'Tec, I'm just saying it's off to a good start. And I do think it's current sales are closer to the long term average than most other new series, because it lacks a potential collectors item #1 issue to boost sales.


Action started with an even unusually lower ceiling and managed to actually gain readers in the next issue(so it's ceiling is no longer a ceiling), I kind off have to agree with Aahz, this number is low. Tec after all outsold the likes of WW on average.DC should have just gone with number 1, they're just trying to get speculators to get ready for the 1000th issue.

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## Atlanta96

> Action started with an even unusually lower ceiling and managed to actually gain readers in the next issue(so it's ceiling is no longer a ceiling), I kind off have to agree with Aahz, this number is low. Tec after all outsold the likes of WW on average.DC should have just gone with number 1, they're just trying to get speculators to get ready for the 1000th issue.


Wonder Woman outsold 'Tec last month cause it was a 1st issue. Since the new series started with issue 934, most of the people who bought it intended to stick with the series and not just drop it after issue #1. The DC Sales thread explains that the New 52 launches for 'Tec and Action were helped by the first #1 issues for those series since the 1930s. I think it's impressive that the Rebirth book sold so well without a 1st issue boost.

Hey, we passed 1000 posts! Yay! Take that Damian Wayne appreciation thread  :Smile:

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## darkseidpwns

> Wonder Woman outsold 'Tec last month cause it was a 1st issue. Since the new series started with issue 934,* most of the people who bought it intended to stick with the series and not just drop it after issue #1.* The DC Sales thread explains that the New 52 launches for 'Tec and Action were helped by the first #1 issues for those series since the 1930s. I think it's impressive that the Rebirth book sold so well without a 1st issue boost.
> 
> Hey, we passed 1000 posts! Yay! Take that Damian Wayne appreciation thread


Not necessarily true though but we'll see, always had a soft spot for Tec and Action I want to see them do well.

Damian Wayne says: I've still got 2 books Drake.

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## Atlanta96

> Not necessarily true though but we'll see, always had a soft spot for Tec and Action I want to see them do well.
> 
> Damian Wayne says: I've still got 2 books Drake.


(2 years later) "I've still got 1 book Drake, same as you now! What's that? New Young Justice with you in the lead? NOOOO!!!"

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## darkseidpwns

> (2 years later) "I've still got 1 book Drake, same as you now! What's that? New Young Justice with you in the lead? NOOOO!!!"


Wont DC push Damian and Jon as the new young heroes and representatives of Batman and Superman's legacy? I think that's more likely to be the New Young Justice. I have a feeling DC will move Tim back to the Teen Titans with his generation after a few years.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Wont DC push Damian and Jon as the new young heroes and representatives of Batman and Superman's legacy? I think that's more likely to be the New Young Justice. I have a feeling DC will move Tim back to the Teen Titans with his generation after a few years.


They almost need a new name at this point, it won't work if they try to force them as rookies like they did in TT.

----------


## godisawesome

Hey, and as long as they're good books, that is a win for Damian. Just remember, we supposedly had two Tim book in the last year while Damian had one, and yet most of us would argue Damian was getting the better end of that deal with an artist turned writer (always a gamble) while Tim was stuck in one book with a crappy premise (Batman Beyond) and another that was generally just crappy (Teen Titans).

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hey, and as long as they're good books, that is a win for Damian. Just remember, we supposedly had two Tim book in the last year while Damian had one, and yet most of us would argue Damian was getting the better end of that deal with an artist turned writer (always a gamble) while Tim was stuck in one book with a crappy premise (Batman Beyond) and another that was generally just crappy (Teen Titans).


I wouldn't even count Batman Beyond. The premise alone got so much hate and backlash that I wouldn't consider that series a victory for Tim. Even if it was well written, most fans still would have hated it for killing off Terry to replace him with Tim. Teen Titans at least had potential, even if it did more harm than good to all the characters involved. 

Interestingly, Tim's Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin series actually sold slightly better than Damian's solo book, despite DC selling less comics overall at the time. Going by sales, Tim and Damian are at the very least equally popular.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Wont DC push Damian and Jon as the new young heroes and representatives of Batman and Superman's legacy? I think that's more likely to be the New Young Justice. I have a feeling DC will move Tim back to the Teen Titans with his generation after a few years.


Personally, I'd start with the Super Sons, then appropriate a name from the 90s as the circle of friends expands: remember the Flash/Green Lantern/Green Arrow crossover from back then? It was called Fast Friends. Meanwhile, let Tim, Kon, Bart, and Cassie retain the Young Justice name.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm also interested to see how thing's play out between him and Kate, since this is pretty much new ground.


I hope this isn't spoilery, but as of today's issue they seem to be slowly building up a rapport. That's not what I would've predicted a month ago, and it's kind of neat to see.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Personally, I'd start with the Super Sons, then appropriate a name from the 90s as the circle of friends expands: remember the Flash/Green Lantern/Green Arrow crossover from back then? It was called “Fast Friends”. Meanwhile, let Tim, Kon, Bart, and Cassie retain the “Young Justice” name.


If they're willing to make a series called Super Sons (it doesn't get cheesier than that) they might as well turn Damian and his pals into the new Super-Friends. And I agree Tim's generation should be Young Justice. I'm convinced that the Teen Titans are cursed to suck for the rest of the decade.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

'Tec continues to be the Tim Drake that was promised. Make sure you pay attention to Tim's screen at a pivotal moment, Tynion seems to be bringing back one of Tim's old school rivals.

----------


## godisawesome

Yeah, we've got somebody named TH3 G3N3R4L beating Tim at his own hacking game.

I know some of you guys think the classic fascist pre-teen General seems fun and like a great opponent for Damian, but I like the idea of him opposing Tim as an older teenager. The initial concept came off as a limited gag to me.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yeah, we've got somebody named TH3 G3N3R4L beating Tim at his own hacking game.
> 
> I know some of you guys think the classic fascist pre-teen General seems fun and like a great opponent for Damian, but I like the idea of him opposing Tim as an older teenager. The initial concept came off as a limited gag to me.


Agreed, I like the idea of him going from pre teen driven fascist to a "tactics for hire" teenager, kind of like when black hat hackers end up working for the government. Nice contrast to the more driven and mission focused Tim.

But on Tim in general, goddamn this issue was perfect. The one thing I missed from Tim was the humbleness, the fact that while he was obviously very competent, he was so humble that being the leader just never felt right for him outside of crisis time. He trusts Bruce, trusts the bat system so to speak, but when shit hits the fan is ready to step up and call the play. Loved it.

----------


## Lhynn

So, i find myself wishing Tynion gets to write a Tim Drake solo. Dude just gets him spot on.

----------


## Atlanta96

> So, i find myself wishing Tynion gets to write a Tim Drake solo. Dude just gets him spot on.


Well, Tim is his all time favorite character so having Tynion write his solo might lead to Tim being a Mary Sue. I'm glad Tynion is writing Tim as a supporting character, and he's done a great job so far. But I think the solo should be written by someone else who isn't so instantly attached.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I hope this isn't spoilery, but as of today's issue they seem to be slowly building up a rapport. That's not what I would've predicted a month ago, and it's kind of neat to see.


Yea. I'm really liking the chemistry between the two.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Well, Tim is his all time favorite character so having Tynion write his solo might lead to Tim being a Mary Sue. I'm glad Tynion is writing Tim as a supporting character, and he's done a great job so far. But I think the solo should be written by someone else who isn't so instantly attached.


Yeah, I'm not sure if it was DC or Tynion who made Kate the leader, but if its Tynion that was a nice show of restraint on his part. 

And yeah agreed with others that the Kate/Tim dynamic is looking great.

----------


## Vinsanity

Dig the Kate/Tim rapport. So far so good but I like a little arrogance. Dude should be like Mike Conley or Tim Duncan in a way. Very modest, humble but a good streak of arrogance in him. But so far so good even though I'm not Tynion's fan, he is doing a decent job.

----------


## KrustyKid

Any guesses to what Kate's next call will be?

----------


## Caivu

> Any guesses to what Kate's next call will be?


Based on Jacob's line about her coming back to the Colony, I can see her pretending to join them in order to get into their HQ and try to take them down from the inside. The preview text for #938 hints that the team will be taking on the Colony on it's own turf.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

That makes sense.

I can see the others wanting to save Batman and Kate (and to a lesser extent Tim) choosing to let him be because he can take care of himself.

----------


## The Whovian

> So, i find myself wishing Tynion gets to write a Tim Drake solo. Dude just gets him spot on.


I'd be happy just to _get_ a Tim solo book. But yeah, Tynion has been pretty good for Tim.

----------


## The Whovian

> Well, Tim is his all time favorite character so having Tynion write his solo might lead to Tim being a Mary Sue. I'm glad Tynion is writing Tim as a supporting character, and he's done a great job so far.


Other than Dixon has there been a writer who really has captured Tim perfectly?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Other than Dixon has there been a writer who really has captured Tim perfectly?


If Dixon is an A+, PAD is an A, Morrison and Yost are B+, and Nicieza and Johns are B-

So far I'd say Tynion is A+, but its still too soon to really judge.

Admittedly though, Nicieza's take was largely informed by what DC did to him over the years, so its hard for me to really fault him for the more ruthless, cocky take on the character.

EDIT: included PAD and Johns.

----------


## The Whovian

> If Dixon is an A+, Morrison and Yost are B+, and Nicieza is a B-
> 
> So far I'd say Tynion is A+, but its still too soon to really judge.
> 
> Admittedly though, Nicieza's take was largely informed by what DC did to him over the years, so its hard for me to really fault him for the more ruthless, cocky take on the character.


Yeah, I was going to include Morrison, and Yost and Nicieza for their RR run, but wanted to see what others had to say first.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Just edited, but Peter David did a lot with him on Young Justice as well. And there was also Johns TT run.

I'm sure there are a few Robin writers I'm forgetting though.

----------


## Atlanta96

> If Dixon is an A+, PAD is an A, Morrison and Yost are B+, and Nicieza and Johns are B-
> 
> So far I'd say Tynion is A+, but its still too soon to really judge.
> 
> Admittedly though, Nicieza's take was largely informed by what DC did to him over the years, so its hard for me to really fault him for the more ruthless, cocky take on the character.
> 
> EDIT: included PAD and Johns.


When has Morrison written Tim well? I've always assumed he disliked Tim because of how he was treated in Batman & Son, and in setting up his Batman run with Damian as Robin.

But I agree that all the other writers mentioned did a great job with Tim and are all fantastic writers, including Morrison.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> When has Morrison written Tim well? I've always assumed he disliked Tim because of how he was treated in Batman & Son, and in setting up his Batman run with Damian as Robin.
> 
> But I agree that all the other writers mentioned did a great job with Tim and are all fantastic writers, including Morrison.


Tim was treated fine in Batman & Son. He was a little salty about Damian, but that was because he had just lost his parents. For the time it was written, Tim being written as more angsty isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the five ghosts arc and the black glove arc Tim was shown to be competent and intelligent, same goes for RoBW.

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## Atlanta96

> Tim was treated fine in Batman & Son. He was a little salty about Damian, but that was because he had just lost his parents. For the time it was written, Tim being written as more angsty isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the five ghosts arc and the black glove arc Tim was shown to be competent and intelligent, same goes for RoBW.


So being beaten, maimed, and almost killed by his eventual replacement, and playing no other part in the story, is fine with you? I'll admit all the Morrison Batman stuff I've read has been Batman & Robin (and Batman and Son). So maybe the stuff you listed would change my mind.

Even as a Mortison fan I'm a bit salty about him giving Damian such a big boost that it lead to him being ubiquitous, while Tim is mostly ignored now except for 1 supporting role.

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## Lhynn

> So being beaten, maimed, and almost killed by his eventual replacement, and playing no other part in the story


Yikes, that happened?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yikes, that happened?


Yeah, Damian's first ever story had him trying to violently murder Tim. He sucker punched him off the dinosaur in the Batcave (after trying to blow him up with the severed head of a criminal he killed) and left him for dead in an attempt to impress Bruce Wayne. That's all Tim does in Batman and Son. To be fair Damian gets badly injured later on as well so Tim isn't the only character to get maimed. Still, can you blame me for assuming Morrison doesn't like Tim Drake very much?

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Yeah, Damian's first ever story had him trying to violently murder Tim. He sucker punched him off the dinosaur in the Batcave (after trying to blow him up with the severed head of a criminal he killed) and left him for dead in an attempt to impress Bruce Wayne. That's all Tim does in Batman and Son. To be fair Damian gets badly injured later on as well so Tim isn't the only character to get maimed. Still, can you blame me for assuming Morrison doesn't like Tim Drake very much?


So a writer doesn't like a character just because he makes bad things happen to that character? I don't agree with that.

I say Morrison treated him well because until that sucker punch (which happened while Tim was leaning down to help Damian up, completely exposing himself), Tim was 100% in control of the situation and making Damian look like the rookie he was.

It was Damian's first story, and Morrison needed to establish his violent tendencies, as well as his insecurities regarding his father. Attacking Tim was the best way to do that. 

In The Black Glove story that happens after that, Tim and Bruce are total professionals, and Morrison does a good job at showing Tim's detective side as well as his general competence. He also has him operating solo in RIP, fending off several of the bad guys on his own before the rest of the club of heroes arrives. He even lasts longer than Nightwing, who basically gets sucker punched and then almost lobotomized.

I get that Tim fans are salty about Damian taking his place as Robin, but honestly I feel like it was time to move on. The sidekick angle wasn't really being utilized by Tim, and he was already basically a solo hero. Admittedly a better name could have been thought up, but I don't think there was really any change in the kinds of stories being told in Red Robin vs. those in Robin. I think if not for the new 52 Tim would have been fine.

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## godisawesome

I don't count Morrison as a great Tim writer because he never got enough focus for me to care about his writing if Tim, and what he did write of the character struck me as more of a faithful-in-broad-strokes characterization than anything else. Of course, I'm one of the readers who loves Morrison's plots while generally finding his dialogue and characterizations less powerful.

I do agree that Damian's sucker punch was more about Damian than Tim, that it was adequate, but I am a little peeved that the fallout had to eventually come from the Robin book later, or I would be, if I didn't love Damian and Tim having such a fun adversarial relationship.

And I know I'm a bit late, but I'll argue for Nicieza being a major writer for Tim on par with Dixon, albeit in a manner that displayed how Nicieza's strengths were from a different place. His Robin and Red Robin runs get massive praise in spite of still relying on all those "editorial kills everyone I love" elements that plenty of people argue were the wrong moves. And that's because Nicieza wrote in a way that reflected how those past tragedies impacted Tim in a pretty skillful way that almost made all those deaths seem organic elements of the story; considering he originally hailed from Marvel when the requirement from Marvel was to try and polish crappy stories dictated by the superstar artists like Liefeld, it was probably in his wheelhouse to make sell everything as sincerely as possible.

I mean, think about how he had those tragedies impact Tim's character while still keeping Tim's core true to Dixon's most famous run. We'd had multiple writers tackle the character when those losses of his friends and family happened, but Nicieza was the one who seemed to handle it in the best overall way.

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## WhipWhirlwind

Yeah, Nicieza gets a big pass from me because while deep down I'd rather they just ignore that crap, Nicieza actually made it work because he had to. More than probably any other writer. 

And I agree that Morrison isn't really a major writer, I just thought The Black Glove was a really good Batman and Robin story with Tim, and liked his portrayal in RIP. I also love Tim and Damian's dynamic, with Tim as this guy who is cool and composed 99% of the time, and this brat that can get under his skin so easily.

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## Aahz

My biggest problem with Nicieza is not how he wrote Tim, but more that he imo ruined the General and Anarky, and his take of Red Hood was also not that great.

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## godisawesome

> My biggest problem with Nicieza is not how he wrote Tim, but more that he imo ruined the General and Anarky, and his take of Red Hood was also not that great.


I think his Red Hod characterization was arguably the last actually good portrayal of the character for quite some time, and pretty clearly foreshadowed Jason's current more mellow characterization. The biggest complaint about I have about his Jason was that he did pretty clearly have Jason job a bit to Tim, but even then he gave him the victory at the end. I liked it better than Battle for the Cowl's cackling murderer and Morrison's red headed step-child.

Lonnie, I'll give you, was kind of fridged, not so much for Tim's benefit as for General's update, which I'll defend in a second. It did suck too have a quadriplegic Anarky, but in Nicieza's defense, and he said this himself, _no one was doing anything with the character and he'd been MIA for years_. And I liked his rapport with Tim, as well as the suggestions Nicieza had that at some point we'd see the two antagonize each other. Ideally, I'd love to see Lonnie return to present comics as a mobile vigilante who nonetheless does have a pretty friendly association with Tim that dips into conflict whenever their disagreements come to the fore.

And the General...nah, the General needed an update. His OG form is mostly just a quick visual gag dealing with the incongruity of a 3-foot Hitler, and like Anarky, he hadn't been seen in years because there were limits to the impact of that characterization. And I liked giving Tim an arch enemy who was clearly still immature even if he was physically developed.

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## Aahz

> I think his Red Hod characterization was arguably the last actually good portrayal of the character for quite some time, and pretty clearly foreshadowed Jason's current more mellow characterization. The biggest complaint about I have about his Jason was that he did pretty clearly have Jason job a bit to Tim, but even then he gave him the victory at the end. I liked it better than Battle for the Cowl's cackling murderer and Morrison's red headed step-child.


 Battle for the Cowl and Morrison were worse, but Jasons plan to use child gangs as canon fodder in a gang war he wanted to start was allready very much out of character.




> And the General...nah, the General needed an update. His OG form is mostly just a quick visual gag dealing with the incongruity of a 3-foot Hitler, and like Anarky, he hadn't been seen in years because there were limits to the impact of that characterization. And I liked giving Tim an arch enemy who was clearly still immature even if he was physically developed.


I liked the old general, he was not really a character you could take serious, but he was kind of fun. I really lilked his family dynamic with the mother that couldn't belive the her sweet little boy was a murderous sociopath, and his siblings that helped Tim to put him back into jail. And with his attitude he was kind of a proto-Damian.
Taking away his military stick, turning him into Anarky and ageing him drastically up (he wa sorginally 3 - 4 year younger than Tim and schould) made him imo unrecognisable, especially since anarchy didn't really fit with his military theme. 

Btw. I still find kind of ironic that of all the teen and child characters in the Batman franchise Lonnie and Ulysses were Actually the ones with the most normal families.

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## Lhynn

I liked that the general had a tactical mind on par with Tim. If batman classic villains reflect parts of bruce, then the general definitely reflects some of tim.

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## Atlanta96

I don't really mind Damian replacing Tim as Robin either, moving on from that identity is something every Robin does eventually. Aside from some issues with how the replacement went down, my problem is that Tim's new Red Robin identity didn't take off like Dick becoming Nightwing did. Tim wasn't in a massively popular team book like NTT, and while Red Robin was a pretty good series it didn't really attract anyone who wasn't a hardcore Tim fan in the first place. And then the New 52 happened, nuff said.

While Dick (and to an extent Jason) have found success outside of the Robin identity, Tim hasnt. And its all because of Damian. So even though I like Damians character in certain stories, I can't help but have a chip on my shoulder. It's like the Wally/Nu Wally situation. Nu Wally is evolving into a better character, but he's still getting more exposure than ginger Wally, mainly because of the TV show. So I'll always have a bit of animosity towards those admittedly good characters until I feel like their predecessors are being treated fairly. Hopefully Tim will have another successful series outside of 'Tec, since a few DC writers and plenty of fans still seem fond of him I'm optimistic.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> I don't really mind Damian replacing Tim as Robin either, moving on from that identity is something every Robin does eventually. Aside from some issues with how the replacement went down, my problem is that Tim's new Red Robin identity didn't take off like Dick becoming Nightwing did. Tim wasn't in a massively popular team book like NTT, and while Red Robin was a pretty good series it didn't really attract anyone who wasn't a hardcore Tim fan in the first place. And then the New 52 happened, nuff said.
> 
> *While Dick (and to an extent Jason) have found success outside of the Robin identity, Tim hasnt. And its all because of Damian.* So even though I like Damians character in certain stories, I can't help but have a chip on my shoulder. It's like the Wally/Nu Wally situation. Nu Wally is evolving into a better character, but he's still getting more exposure than ginger Wally, mainly because of the TV show. So I'll always have a bit of animosity towards those admittedly good characters until I feel like their predecessors are being treated fairly. Hopefully Tim will have another successful series outside of 'Tec, since a few DC writers and plenty of fans still seem fond of him I'm optimistic.


Here is where you lose me.

Red Robin under Yost and nicieza was great, and then it was decent/good. I don't think Tim's sales or status were all that affected by not being robin anymore because his book was basically the same. Heck, even for a bulk of his time as Robin he was somewhat separate from Batman.

I just don't see how one can say that the Robin/Red Robin switch is what tanked Tim, as opposed to the New 52.

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## Atlanta96

> Here is where you lose me.
> 
> Red Robin under Yost and nicieza was great, and then it was decent/good. I don't think Tim's sales or status were all that affected by not being robin anymore because his book was basically the same. Heck, even for a bulk of his time as Robin he was somewhat separate from Batman.
> 
> I just don't see how one can say that the Robin/Red Robin switch is what tanked Tim, as opposed to the New 52.


I still think not being Robin anymore took a lot of opportunities away from the character, especially appearances in other Bat-Books. And relaunching Tim's solo as Robin might have had more success than Red Robin, but I guess there's no way of knowing. I agree that the New 52 did more harm to the character than anything else, but the RR identity hasn't helped. It reads to many people as "Robin but Not-Robin".

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## darkseidpwns

> I still think not being Robin anymore took a lot of opportunities away from the character, especially appearances in other Bat-Books. And relaunching Tim's solo as Robin might have had more success than Red Robin, but I guess there's no way of knowing. I agree that the New 52 did more harm to the character than anything else, but the RR identity hasn't helped. *It reads to many people as "Robin but Not-Robin".*


*

*

I thought it meant fast food different strokes for different people I guess.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> I still think not being Robin anymore took a lot of opportunities away from the character, especially appearances in other Bat-Books. And relaunching Tim's solo as Robin might have had more success than Red Robin, but I guess there's no way of knowing. I agree that the New 52 did more harm to the character than anything else, but the RR identity hasn't helped. It reads to many people as "Robin but Not-Robin".


Tim made a few different appearances during that time though. Black Mirror, Gates of Gotham, Return of Bruce Wayne, INC. I really don't think it made much of a difference.

You're right that there's no way of knowing, but I just don't see it because frankly there weren't a lot of stories to tell with the Bruce/Tim dynamic. They were a well oiled machine, and the only drama they ever had was Bruce not understanding Tim's "normal" life, which thanks to DC no longer existed. He was literally the perfect Robin, which sucks from a story telling standpoint.

I agree that Red Robin sucks as a name though. Thankfully I don't think it is set in stone. Heck, Tynion is already starting a subplot of Tim needing to move on beyond his service to Batman as far as his life/priorities go. Who says we won't get a lights out arc of 'Tec that spins that into a new ID?

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## Atlanta96

> I agree that Red Robin sucks as a name though. Thankfully I don't think it is set in stone. Heck, Tynion is already starting a subplot of Tim needing to move on beyond his service to Batman as far as his life/priorities go. Who says we won't get a lights out arc of 'Tec that spins that into a new ID?


Well they just gave him a new costume with a Robin aesthetic, so I don't think the name is going anywhere anytime soon. The best we can hope for is good enough writing and characterization to make people accept the name and like the character. 'Tec is doing well critically and financially so we're off to a good start. Next step is another solo book or a Young Justice reboot.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Well they just gave him a new costume with a Robin aesthetic, so I don't think the name is going anywhere anytime soon. The best we can hope for is good enough writing and characterization to make people accept the name and like the character. 'Tec is doing well critically and financially so we're off to a good start. Next step is another solo book or a Young Justice reboot.


I mean who knows how long Tynion's 'Tec run could last. A year, 2? I think if we end up 2 years removed from this costume he could float the possibility of a less Robiny one.

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## godisawesome

> I still think not being Robin anymore took a lot of opportunities away from the character, especially appearances in other Bat-Books. And relaunching Tim's solo as Robin might have had more success than Red Robin, but I guess there's no way of knowing. I agree that the New 52 did more harm to the character than anything else, but the RR identity hasn't helped. It reads to many people as "Robin but Not-Robin".


I think we're actually seeing more of that New 52 divide here; I think that Tim was in a great place before Flashpoint, and maybe even once cusp of going full Nightwing in terms of fanbase recognition, but the New 52 reversed all of that. I think some of the New 52 regression is coloring what was actually an evolved form of the character for you.

Tim's initial turn as Red Robin was couched as part of a whole new status quo across the entirety of Gotham; we had a new Batman, Batgirl, Robin, and Red Robin as well, and everyone's place was an evolution if their previous spot and aesthetics. Steph was a full on spunky Batgirl, Dick had streamlined the cowl down to a simpler design, Damian was the scrappy Robin with a hood, and Tim's cowled look emphasized his protection of his noggin and how he _wasn't_ evolving in the exact same manner as Dick: while even Dick's initial Nightwing costume seemed to emphasize style and a more stripped down crime fighter, Tim was going for more armored coverage and more gadget capacity.

And Nicieza didn't quite just carry on with his initial status quo; he accelerated Tim's social standing and updated his supporting cast and surroundings from the fodder left over by Chris Yost and seemed to already be implementing some of Morrison's ideas. Yost has Tim declared an emancipated minor with power over Wayne Enterprises? Alright, then Tim's now definitely got a foot in the world of corporations, and will now spend his time in a business suit. Yost introduces Tam Fox as a Girl Friday and love interest? Alright, let's emphasize that and effectively keep her promoted to the book's deuteragonist. Tim's effectively promoted to lieutenant in Batman Inc? Alright, his Neon Knights thing is now going global and he's a globetrotter. Damian is occupying the Manor after the short stint of trying to make Tim a more traditional Robin via the same? Okay, he now has a personal apartment and headquarters in the Monarch Theater.

I honestly think Nicieza's Red Robin was just waiting for the Teen Titans book to get straightened up enough for him to rejoin again, for his solo to run for another two or three years with Nicieza in charge, and we probably would have a fully developed Tim Drake fitting Nightwing's old, empty slot while not being Nightwing...

...And then the New 52 promptly reversed that. Some of it was incidental, though still debatable as neccesary, like Dick dropping the cowl without any real build up and suddenly being written as subordinate to Bruce again, a move that both left Dick vulnerable to being fed to the CSA in Forever Evil and made the position of "Graduate Robin" in danger of redundancy. Then Tim's look was overhauled to be a busy, very clearly Nightwing-esque design, which I think did make Tim stand out less; after all, how many heroes go around with domino masks in Gotham? And hand in hand with the idea of the New 52, almost all the things that had been done to evolve Tim's Red Robin persona into someone new was dropped. He lost Tam and his other supporting cast, he lost Neon Knights and his civilian life (which I think should be pointed out occupied page time every issue), he lost his villains, mission statement, and his new HQ. The only thing he kept in the first arc of New 52 Teen Titans was his paranoia and confidence, which started to look like arrogance. Even his resources, the ones that presumably were supposed to stem from his newfound corporate life, became a cloudy, undefined tool for hand waving where the team was getting stuff.

And initially, all that was probably unintentional; I don't think Lobdell or any other creator said "this has to go," when what they probably thought was "follow the LCD rules of marketing; everything should seem totally fresh, so don't use any details that veterans expect in case they throw off newcomers."

But then Lobdell's Titans run started to tank. And that line you have about "Robin but Not-Robin" became literally true. Suddenly, there was nothing about Tim's codename that was really laudable; it wasn't a promotion, and it didn't even have the nominal superiority of being an inheritance from one of the world's most popular heroes. Nope, Tim Drake, a character who had successfully held a financially viable book through thick and thin through over 200 issues, most if it as an integral part of Batman's policing of Gotham and as his effective number 2 (even when it was a different Batman)... was the intern who tried to be a little different. And he was an idiot who got his parents nearly killed by ignoring Batman's warnings, and the arrogant twerp got rewarded for it! And then it became clear that Lobdell, almost certainly preoccupied with his dream job on Superman and bowing to any and all editorial decrees, was phoning in most of his Titans work and basically casting Tim as Dick, but only in the worst ways. Dick's Titans experience seemingly arbitrary betrayal? So does Tim's. Dick and his team deal with a shoddy copy of the Trigon arc because the writers out of idea So? Sure, Tim can do that too. _Dick get's sexually assaulted in an incident with a teammate because the writer thinks it's a good way to spice up the books romance?_ Oh, look, it's Cassie, Solstice, and Tim with a demon possessed rape face.

Back when it was Red Robin, star of a solo and the evolution of a beloved character, I didn't see people mocking the name that much. But after years of the New 52 wrecking up the characters and his friends while trying to fix what wasn't broken, that basically guaranteed on every single message board thread.

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## KrustyKid

> I think we're actually seeing more of that New 52 divide here; I think that Tim was in a great place before Flashpoint, and maybe even once cusp of going full Nightwing in terms of fanbase recognition, but the New 52 reversed all of that. I think some of the New 52 regression is coloring what was actually an evolved form of the character for you.
> 
> Tim's initial turn as Red Robin was couched as part of a whole new status quo across the entirety of Gotham; we had a new Batman, Batgirl, Robin, and Red Robin as well, and everyone's place was an evolution if their previous spot and aesthetics. Steph was a full on spunky Batgirl, Dick had streamlined the cowl down to a simpler design, Damian was the scrappy Robin with a hood, and Tim's cowled look emphasized his protection of his noggin and how he _wasn't_ evolving in the exact same manner as Dick: while even Dick's initial Nightwing costume seemed to emphasize style and a more stripped down crime fighter, Tim was going for more armored coverage and more gadget capacity.
> 
> And Nicieza didn't quite just carry on with his initial status quo; he accelerated Tim's social standing and updated his supporting cast and surroundings from the fodder left over by Chris Yost and seemed to already be implementing some of Morrison's ideas. Yost has Tim declared an emancipated minor with power over Wayne Enterprises? Alright, then Tim's now definitely got a foot in the world of corporations, and will now spend his time in a business suit. Yost introduces Tam Fox as a Girl Friday and love interest? Alright, let's emphasize that and effectively keep her promoted to the book's deuteragonist. Tim's effectively promoted to lieutenant in Batman Inc? Alright, his Neon Knights thing is now going global and he's a globetrotter. Damian is occupying the Manor after the short stint of trying to make Tim a more traditional Robin via the same? Okay, he now has a personal apartment and headquarters in the Monarch Theater.
> 
> I honestly think Nicieza's Red Robin was just waiting for the Teen Titans book to get straightened up enough for him to rejoin again, for his solo to run for another two or three years with Nicieza in charge, and we probably would have a fully developed Tim Drake fitting Nightwing's old, empty slot while not being Nightwing...
> 
> ...And then the New 52 promptly reversed that. Some of it was incidental, though still debatable as neccesary, like Dick dropping the cowl without any real build up and suddenly being written as subordinate to Bruce again, a move that both left Dick vulnerable to being fed to the CSA in Forever Evil and made the position of "Graduate Robin" in danger of redundancy. Then Tim's look was overhauled to be a busy, very clearly Nightwing-esque design, which I think did make Tim stand out less; after all, how many heroes go around with domino masks in Gotham? And hand in hand with the idea of the New 52, almost all the things that had been done to evolve Tim's Red Robin persona into someone new was dropped. He lost Tam and his other supporting cast, he lost Neon Knights and his civilian life (which I think should be pointed out occupied page time every issue), he lost his villains, mission statement, and his new HQ. The only thing he kept in the first arc of New 52 Teen Titans was his paranoia and confidence, which started to look like arrogance. Even his resources, the ones that presumably were supposed to stem from his newfound corporate life, became a cloudy, undefined tool for hand waving where the team was getting stuff.
> ...


Great post. I agree with most of what was said here. While a lot of people find the name 'Red Robin' silly, what makes it any sillier than Batman, Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, or even Wonder Woman? There is really nothing wrong with the name per say. Time and good stories is all it takes to sink it all in. Just as it has for the other names of heroes mentioned. We have a Batman, Batgirl, Batwing, and Batwoman; so I don't see the problem with having Robin along with Red Robin. Just my two cents.

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## Atlanta96

Another great post. I always hated the loss of history and character that Tim experienced after the reboot, but this is the first time I've seen everything he lost just layed out like this. Who knows where his character would have gone over the course of Red Robin and Teen Titans. The Wayne Enterprises stuff and his reconciliation with the Titans and the rest of the Bat-Family were interesting and could have led to some of Tim's best development ever.

 I'll always be a Tim fan, but it will definitely be a while and take a lot of effort from writers to make him as great as his Pre-Flashpoint days again. Restoring most of his old history and development would be a good start. Current Tim would be a lot more badass if I knew his Dixon adventures had happened. Even he Red Robin stuff could be made canon since Dicks time as Batman still happened in the New 52.

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## godisawesome

I think Tynion's the type to want to reintegrate Tim's past, but there's two hurdles:

The first is the belief among some fans, which is not entirely without warrant, that Tim _was_ broken before the New 52, particularly in regards to his parents all being dead. This would mostly impact the Red Robin run and the Robin arcs before it, which I love and still desire to see picked up again (particularly Lynx II and Grasshopper). Readers like me grew to accept the traumatized Tim as ultimately being written organically under guys like Yost, Nocieza, and ironically, Dixon during his short return. But you hear plenty of people who feel that the character lost an intrinsic part of his appeal when his parents died. I personally would disagree with this; to me, rejecting a successful era for the character smacks of regression, much like the breakup of all the comic book marriages we saw in the last ten years across both of the Big Two. To me, such though kills momentum and constrains characters to a formula that eventually comes into conflict with the desire for growth (see: The Superman fanbase.)

The other is the importance of two former _persona non grata_ cases that were only just recently overturned and now share 'Ted with Tim: Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain. Both those characters frequently crisis-crossed with Tim and Steph in particular was an important fixture of a huge number of his arcs. And because DC felt that their very existance was a threat to the attempt to coalesce all Batgirl fans behind Barbara, they tried scrubbing out both characters from any of their published works, even down to possibly ordering a Lil' Gotham Halloween costume thread have one single background character's hair color changed because heaven forbid there be any sign of a blonde Batgirl. It's not neccesarily a deal breaker for reconnecting Tim to his former history, but it doesn't paint a picture of DC editorial supporting that era of Batbooks and would require hand-waving in Rebirth.

Personally, though, I'd still love it if Tynion established that everything happened in Tim's past that isn't directly contradicted by current backstory. So, maybe Tim did all the stuff he did in those Dixon issues featuring Spoiler, but without Spoiler, and maybe the only major arc that is completely missing is the Beechen one where Cass went evil. But I would I still feel something was missing if they don't make it explicit that a) Tim _was officially classified as Robin_ and b) he took up the Red Robin mantle _as a Graduation of some kind._

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## Atlanta96

> Personally, though, I'd still love it if Tynion established that everything happened in Tim's past that isn't directly contradicted by current backstory. So, maybe Tim did all the stuff he did in those Dixon issues featuring Spoiler, but without Spoiler, and maybe the only major arc that is completely missing is the Beechen one where Cass went evil. But I would I still feel something was missing if they don't make it explicit that a) Tim _was officially classified as Robin_ and b) he took up the Red Robin mantle _as a Graduation of some kind._


I don't think anyone will be too disappointed if that evil Cass storyline never happened. And there's always the possibility that they can get creative and make it so Steph and Cass had crime fighting careers before the New 52, but it would be a tough retcon so they probably won't. There were still plenty of great Tim stories that didn't involve those 2 that can easily be restored.

I know this has been said before, but there was no reason for him to never have been Robin. In that Zero Month TT issue they even gave him the OYL Robin costume, and there was no other Robin at the time, but he went straight to the RR identity for no explainable reason. I don't know if it was Lobdell or editorial's decision but I'm pretty sure no readers at all think it was a good idea.

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## Lhynn

Red Robin always felt like a temporary thing. Just some identity he picked up along the way to do what the felt he needed while giving the batfamily deniability.

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## godisawesome

In the first arc under Chris Yost, most definitely. Nicieza was playing it as a new status quo.

And the only reason that I ever believed was behind making Tim "only and always Red a Robin" was the fan speculation that DC wanted to make it so Batman only went through 3 "official" Robins in five years. Because otherwise it seems counterintuitive to remove the trademarked moniker from a character who successfully carried it for 20 years.

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## josai21

I'm still arguing that the memories of everyone will be returned eventually. All we need is Wally West's magic touch.

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## Atlanta96

> I'm still arguing that the memories of everyone will be returned eventually. All we need is Wally West's magic touch.


Flash-finger! He's the man, the man with the magic touch! A speedster's touch!
Memories he'll restore in a year,
From the Pre-Flashpoint days, never fear!

But yeah that would be awesome.

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## KrustyKid

Whether any of his past is restored or not. What I really care about is good stories going forward. Something I think we can all agree on.

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## Lhynn

> Whether any of his past is restored or not. What I really care about is good stories going forward. Something I think we can all agree on.


Sure, but a lot of who he is comes from who he was. Tim didnt have the most complex of personalities when he was 12 (hardly anyone does, you arent really a fully fledged person when you are that young), he was just some normal upper class kid that got worried over batman and his legacy and decided to help. So most of his character growth and development came from all the stories he lost.
So hes mostly been depicted as his skillset and job description and nothing more until we got to Tec.

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## KrustyKid

> Sure, but a lot of who he is comes from who he was. Tim didnt have the most complex of personalities when he was 12 (hardly anyone does, you arent really a fully fledged person when you are that young), he was just some normal upper class kid that got worried over batman and his legacy and decided to help. So most of his character growth and development came from all the stories he lost.
> So hes mostly been depicted as his skillset and job description and nothing more until we got to Tec.


You nailed it with your first sentence. But as it stands now, I find it highly unlikely we'll get everything restored. But there is certainly a chance we'll get some important character bits back. Hopefully his process for seeking out Batman is something closer to Pre-52. That is still something completely doable. Even with his past not completely intact, that doesn't mean the character can't excel moving forward. As we're seeing in Tec, we're finally getting some much needed build for him.

----------


## godisawesome

What's the one story that you would prioritize as needing to be brought in, if you had the choice?

For me, it's the first miniseries with Lady Shiva training Tim and King Snake as the villain. As much as I think his Red Robin adventures should be brought in, and as much as I want to see Lynx II, Shiva'a relationship with Tim and the way his skills are played are so awesome in that first series.

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## josai21

> What's the one story that you would prioritize as needing to be brought in, if you had the choice?
> 
> For me, it's the first miniseries with Lady Shiva training Tim and King Snake as the villain. As much as I think his Red Robin adventures should be brought in, and as much as I want to see Lynx II, Shiva'a relationship with Tim and the way his skills are played are so awesome in that first series.


In order of Priority?

Shiva/Initial origins
Young Justice and those friendships
Red Robin Adventures.

If I have to lose one, it's Red Robin because I feel Tynion could easily bring Tim to that same level of graduation again.

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## Atlanta96

> What's the one story that you would prioritize as needing to be brought in, if you had the choice?
> 
> For me, it's the first miniseries with Lady Shiva training Tim and King Snake as the villain. As much as I think his Red Robin adventures should be brought in, and as much as I want to see Lynx II, Shiva'a relationship with Tim and the way his skills are played are so awesome in that first series.


Not a story in particular, but I'd like Young Justice to be canon up until that stupid Graduation Day story. His interactions with his teammates in that series really brought out the best of his character. Having it in continuity would be great for not just Tim but the entire team.

For a story focused just on Tim, I'd say his Joker miniseries. That's the story I think really established his character and was his greatest accomplishment at that point. But all those minis were great so it was hard to choose.

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## KrustyKid

> What's the one story that you would prioritize as needing to be brought in, if you had the choice?
> 
> For me, it's the first miniseries with Lady Shiva training Tim and King Snake as the villain. As much as I think his Red Robin adventures should be brought in, and as much as I want to see Lynx II, Shiva'a relationship with Tim and the way his skills are played are so awesome in that first series.


Pretty much this. Also a mesh of his original origin with the new.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Not a story in particular, but I'd like Young Justice to be canon up until that stupid Graduation Day story. His interactions with his teammates in that series really brought out the best of his character. Having it in continuity would be great for not just Tim but the entire team.
> 
> For a story focused just on Tim, I'd say his Joker miniseries. That's the story I think really established his character and was his greatest accomplishment at that point. But all those minis were great so it was hard to choose.


I think his original origin is the most important, but aside from that yeah definitely Young Justice. The only thing from RR I would really need is the opening arc with Ra's.

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## Lhynn

His original origin, his relationship with bruce, his relationship with his father, his 16th birthday, all his interactions with shiva (except the one year later one, that one and everything that happened in that arc can be safely erased) and him taking on the league and Ras.

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## KrustyKid

> His original origin, his relationship with bruce, his relationship with his father, his 16th birthday, all his interactions with shiva (except the one year later one, that one and everything that happened in that arc can be safely erased) and him taking on the league and Ras.


Since his mother is around that too could be a fun angle to work.

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## Lhynn

I really think his current family shouldnt be his real family. Jack should be outthere, living his life, maybe having forgotten tim for some reason. And these tho fakes should be part of a big conspiracy, itd be more fun.

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## godisawesome

The issue with his current parents is that they're there, but they're not _there._ The whole complaint that people had over Tim's parents being dead was that it removed the unique set-up of him having to deal with his father when he was home. But the only purpose that his parents have served in the new status quo is to be targets. They're not even characters; Jack Drake has one passable monologue filled to the brim with Lobdell's best efforts to paint Jack as being worried they're not worthy of such a son, but other than that, they're non-entities. 

If his parents are alive, they need to be a constant presence in his life, even if a distant one that he's scared of seeing hurt. Personally, I still think it would be better to have Penguin's beef be started by Tim's parents doing their civic duty in testifying against him or something, with Tim being seperate because he wa a used to track them down before. Imagine if Tim spends a few panels at least each issue talking to his mom over the phone, or if we get a subplot where one of the parents gets seriously sick and Tim battles with his paranoia that visiting them could put them back in Penguin's crosshairs.

Or heck, just have him go home and talk to them once in a while! If you're not going to use them, than honestly, they're better of dead!

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## Lhynn

I dont like the whole penguin thing. I like his original motivation of just being a helping hand, Tim has always been a hero by nature, its not something he sought or that was imposed on him, its something he picked up because no one else was there to do it.
Wouldnt mind if the penguin was his first villain instead of two face/scarecrow, but i want that to come after hes made his choice.

As for his current parents, these guys are some generic middle class worried parents that dont even have drake as a last name, just who are they? Rather them address this than retcon it.

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## WhipWhirlwind

I'd rather them just retcon it. It totally cratered one of the best origins in comics.

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## Lhynn

> I'd rather them just retcon it. It totally cratered one of the best origins in comics.


Yeah, its what im saying, but dont just delete it, explore it as its own thing. Also maybe im really hung up on his new parents resembling the parents of Danny Temple (the Kobra kid from Robin).

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## Aahz

> I'd rather them just retcon it. It totally cratered one of the best origins in comics.


I don't think that A Lonely Place or Dying was such a great story.




> Also maybe im really hung up on his new parents resembling the parents of Danny Temple (the Kobra kid from Robin).


His relation with his parents reminds me more on Lonnie Machin.

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## Lhynn

Every time i think of them, im thinking this
kobra.jpg

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## WhipWhirlwind

> I don't think that A Lonely Place or Dying was such a great story.


You're probably right, but the basic origin of him choosing to be Robin out of a sense of duty because Batman needed a Robin instead of being pushed by trauma or circumstance made it really stick out for me as far as DC origins go.

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## Atlanta96

Retcon it so his current parents are impostors, and his original origin happened all along and one or both of his parents are dead. The DCU could be filled with fake memories for all we know, most of us would be happy if the entirety of New 52 TT was just a fake memory in people's heads.

----------


## dominus

> Retcon it so his current parents are impostors, and his original origin happened all along and one or both of his parents are dead. The DCU could be filled with fake memories for all we know, most of us would be happy if the entirety of New 52 TT was just a fake memory in people's heads.


I'd be happy if it was a fake memory in my own head.

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## phantom1592

> You're probably right, but the basic origin of him choosing to be Robin out of a sense of duty because Batman needed a Robin instead of being pushed by trauma or circumstance made it really stick out for me as far as DC origins go.


Yep. I always loved that. I also remember seeing an interview with the writers about how Jason was so actively disliked because a lot of Grayson fans saw him as a Usurper. That was the reason that Tim went to Dick first and essentially got his golden approval when handed the torch. 

Ironic considering the way they had Damian replace Tim... >.<

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## Aahz

> Yep. I always loved that. I also remember seeing an interview with the writers about how Jason was so actively disliked because a lot of Grayson fans saw him as a Usurper. That was the reason that Tim went to Dick first and essentially got his golden approval when handed the torch.


Dick approved of jason and gave him the costume pre and post crisis.

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## phantom1592

> Dick approved of jason and gave him the costume pre and post crisis.


yeah, but if I recall correctly, Jason was already running around in 'a' costume with Batman... and Bruce actually calling out 'Robin' before Dick gave him the official costume. 

Regardless of personal opinions, That's what the interview of the writers said/thought at the time. I THINK it was the Forward to my Lonely Place of Dying TPB... but I can't swear to it.

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## Aahz

> yeah, but if I recall correctly, Jason was already running around in 'a' costume with Batman... and Bruce actually calling out 'Robin' before Dick gave him the official costume.


pre crisis jason actually first wanted to take a different name before, Dick retried as Robin and gave him the costume (and in that continuity Bruce was anyway the first Robin).

And Tim also either took the costume or got it from Alfred (I'm not sure at the moment), and didn't got from Dick.

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## Aahz

> Regardless of personal opinions, That's what the interview of the writers said/thought at the time. I THINK it was the Forward to my Lonely Place of Dying TPB... but I can't swear to it.


What the writers say about Jason is anyway not really true. 
If you really compare the Dick was as reckless and disobedient as Jason, and Tim had also his moments. Just look at Robin Year One or Robin Vol. 2.

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## KrustyKid

> What the writers say about Jason is anyway not really true. 
> If you really compare the Dick was as reckless and disobedient as Jason, and Tim had also his moments. Just look at Robin Year One or Robin Vol. 2.


True, each of the boys have had their moments.

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## Lhynn

Tim reckless? when?

----------


## Aahz

Have you read his 3 mini series?

In the first teams up with Shiva (a highly dangerous assassin) and travels the world to fight King Snake (a crime lord and one of the worlds best martial artists).

In the second he goes alone after the Joker, and only survives because the Police arrives before the Joker could shoot him.

And in the third he teams up behind Bruces back with the Huntress (who was also dangerous according to Batman) to go up against KGBeast, a guy that was so dangerous that even Batman couldn't take him down in fair fight, to save a girl he had a crush on. 

Sorry but if you compare that and how he often acted in those series, with Jasons orginal stories Jason is hardly more reckless.

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## Lhynn

Thats all nonsense. Tim was very cautious in all of them. The fact that he conveyed the sense of risk so well in them, and how he managed to overcome them by thinking things through makes him the opposite of reckless.

Also against the joker his victory was absolute, he fooled him, baited him and beat him. He left him drowning in shit while the police arrived. Because tim is cautious, because he doesnt let emotions get the better of him, because he doesnt throw himself into harms way willy nilly is it that he survives and thrives. Where the others were in attitude just like regular teenagers, here we got a thinking animal. One of the reasons i like the character so much is that he thinks before he acts, that no matter the danger he makes sure he knows the threat before he faces it. And in not getting that you find all that is wrong with 52 tim.

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## Atlanta96

> Thats all nonsense. Tim was very cautious in all of them. The fact that he conveyed the sense of risk so well in them, and how he managed to overcome them by thinking things through makes him the opposite of reckless.
> 
> Also against the joker his victory was absolute, he fooled him, baited him and beat him. He left him drowning in shit while the police arrived. Because tim is cautious, because he doesnt let emotions get the better of him, because he doesnt throw himself into harms way willy nilly is it that he survives and thrives. Where the others were in attitude just like regular teenagers, here we got a thinking animal. One of the reasons i like the character so much is that he thinks before he acts, that no matter the danger he makes sure he knows the threat before he faces it. And in not getting that you find all that is wrong with 52 tim.


Yeah and most of those situations found him, he didn't really seek out the danger himself. If he was running around intentionally looking for dangerous adventures, that would be reckless. But he just happened to come across those situations that required a hero, and intervened with caution and strategy.

When he went up against the Joker, Batman wasn't even in Gotham. He was the city's only hope. And the King Snake plot was something he stumbled into while studying abroad to improve his skills. Teaming up with Huntress behind Batmans back might have been a little reckless, but him and Huntress had enough combined skill that he wasn't really endangering himself. And again, he stumbled into that plot instead of seeking it out intentionally.

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## Lhynn

Teaming up with huntress was fine, he already knew her secret identity and had studied her thoroughly. Including the fact that she was a school teacher, he knew her character and he knew it was going to be fine.

Also you cant be reckless if you are cautious, and he has always been cautious, especially when going against very dangerous heavy hitters.

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## Aahz

> Thats all nonsense. Tim was very cautious in all of them. The fact that he conveyed the sense of risk so well in them, and how he managed to overcome them by thinking things through makes him the opposite of reckless.
> 
> Also against the joker his victory was absolute, he fooled him, baited him and beat him. He left him drowning in shit while the police arrived.


In the second issues of the series Tim attacked Joker and got nearly killed by him, that didn't had much to do with "thinking things through". And even his final plan involved taking down the Joker and his gang by him self, and nearly ended with Tim getting stabbed by the Joker.
And keep in mind the series takes place shortly after Tim finished his training and after the Joker killed Jason, so going up against the Joker on his own was quite reckless.

In the third series he say on many occasions that he is disobient to Batman, and KGBeast was villain that was already to powerfull for Batman to handle so Tim going after him (and later even fighting against him ion his own to free Huntress) and the Russian Mafia with a loses canon like Huntress without involving Batman was reckless. And Tim wasn't that skilled in the series he got his ass kicked by Lynx and he only survived his first encounter with KGBeast because Arianas father intervened and payed with his life for it.

And what Jason did the original comics wasn't really more reckless than the stuff Tim did. In DITF he didn't even wanted to attack the Joker he just sneaked in contacted the his mother when she was alone and wanted to sneak her out. The Joker only got him because his mother betrayed him. (And Jason was at this point more experienced than Tim was in Robin Vol 2.) And I really doubt that you can find in the original comics jason doing somthing that is more reckless than what Tim did in the three miniseries (or than Stuff Dick did).

Jason was more agressive and brutal (and even that was only in the last issues of Starlins run) than Tim and Dick but not really more reckless. And even Tim displayed anger issues in later stories.

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## godisawesome

Boldness is a common attribute for all the Robins; the only real reason Jason gets the "reckless" label is because that suited the narrative for a few years after his death. It's basically a tradition that the Robins, no matter who they are, will bite off more than they can chew pretty much every adventure, and 9/10 times, it works out in their favor.

The thing that was unique about Tim was that the creators would exaggerate Tim's awareness and nervousness about how outmatched he was in comparison to Jason and Dick. With Dick, you expect a daredevil smile and a quick quip, with Jason a bit more attitude and maybe some righteous anger, and Tim would generally have an internal monologue consisting of more verbose paraphrases of "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap..."

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## Lhynn

> In the second issues of the series Tim attacked Joker and got nearly killed by him, that didn't had much to do with "thinking things through". And even his final plan involved taking down the Joker and his gang by him self, and nearly ended with Tim getting stabbed by the Joker.


Thats not being reckless, thats like saying that all soldiers or cops are reckless because they have a dangerous job. Tim has always been cautious.




> And keep in mind the series takes place shortly after Tim finished his training and after the Joker killed Jason, so going up against the Joker on his own was quite reckless.


Its the job, he took precautions, he did detective work, he fooled his enemy.




> In the third series he say on many occasions that he is disobient to Batman, and KGBeast was villain that was already to powerfull for Batman to handle so Tim going after him (and later even fighting against him ion his own to free Huntress) and the Russian Mafia with a loses canon like Huntress without involving Batman was reckless. And Tim wasn't that skilled in the series he got his ass kicked by Lynx and he only survived his first encounter with KGBeast because Arianas father intervened and payed with his life for it.


As i said, hes a robin and he does what robins do. As for him being disobedient, thats just Tim making his own calls, unlike jason or dick he wasnt a sidekick, he was a partner. He took his own decisions and his whole relationship with the bat was predicated on this, batman could not stop him. He was smart enough to know what batman would and would not approve of, but he did make his own calls anyway.




> And what Jason did the original comics wasn't really more reckless than the stuff Tim did.


Yes, it kind of was, jason went there without a plan.




> In DITF he didn't even wanted to attack the Joker he just sneaked in contacted the his mother when she was alone and wanted to sneak her out. The Joker only got him because his mother betrayed him. (And Jason was at this point more experienced than Tim was in Robin Vol 2.) And I really doubt that you can find in the original comics jason doing somthing that is more reckless than what Tim did in the three miniseries (or than Stuff Dick did).


Taking risks is not being reckless, not being cautious is being reckless.




> Jason was more agressive and brutal (and even that was only in the last issues of Starlins run) than Tim and Dick but not really more reckless.


Being more agressive implies that he didnt think things through, thats reckless.




> And even Tim displayed anger issues in later stories.


Sure, but he never let that anger cloud his judgement. Because again, he was never reckless, it was never a personality trait in him. He always kept a cool head and thought of his next movement.

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## Aioros22

> Thats not being reckless, thats like saying that all soldiers or cops are reckless because they have a dangerous job. Tim _has always_ been cautious.


"Always"? What an oversimplification. 

Tim wanted to done the mask before he was ready to avenge his mother, after he did it the first time. This is after a brief argument with Batman where he _yells_ at him that he won`t let his anger explode (visual irony et all) despite anger not being the direct factor that led to Jason`s demise. Love was. 

He went after the Joker to only get himself nearly killed, fresh out of his training. If that`s not reckles, another trait to consider would be _pretentious_. 

During the early days of Knightfall, Tim jumps in on a tv show and down Nygma, despite him being surrounded by the police with a finger ready to blow up a bomb. Want to guess what Bullock told him? 

He went after Jean Paul (twice) against Bruce`s direct orders and nearly got himself killed. You know what Bruce calls him in the second time he did that? Guess. 

In one of his (of not the first) encounter with the Cluemaster, he ends up getting buried alive and only survives again, out of sheer luck. He talies Cluemaster and his gang in, without a especific idea of where they were going to go next and without backup, since he left Steph in the dark about it. He got rescued because Steph eventually found them. Without having a clue about Tim being there, mind you. 

During Zero Hour when he met Dick/Robin, he wanted to go after a crook barely listening to reason until Dick calms him down. 




> Its the job, he took precautions, he did detective work, he fooled his enemy.


Getting out alive out of sheer luck is _fooling your enemy_?




> As i said, hes a robin and he does what robins do. As for him being disobedient, thats just Tim making his own calls, unlike jason or dick he wasnt a sidekick, he was a partner. He took his own decisions and his whole relationship with the bat was predicated on this, batman could not stop him. He was smart enough to know what batman would and would not approve of, but he did make his own calls anyway.


So basically, you`re placing Tim, especifically early Tim, to a whole new standard for doing some of the same things the others did?




> Yes, it kind of was, jason went there without a plan.


Went "there without a plan" when? You mean when he figured out the Joker was with his mother and instead of just busting throught, had enough a cool head to listen his plan, go to Batman so lives could be saved and then come back after the Joker left said tent to bail his mother out?




> Taking risks is not being reckless, not being cautious is being reckless.


Which Tim has also done.

The difference is that by proxis of being compared to Jason, writers used direct contrast to make him appear more cautious by mentioning how reckless Jason was. Jason was more agressive (later Starlin Jay, at least) but there`s little need to pretend that ever since his early days Tim was perfectly cautious. 

He was _13_ when he started.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, I`m not saying Jason wasn`t impulsive or reckless at times, only that he wasn`t so all the time or even under every writer. By the same token I don`t feel it`s fair to say Tim was never impulsive or let his emotional bursts speak louder than reason either, because he`s had them. And they were part of his learning experience. 

A more defyning character trait is one thing, claiming that the character is only one thing or never was, makes them a cardboard box.

----------


## Aioros22

> Boldness is a common attribute for all the Robins; the only real reason Jason gets the "reckless" label is because that suited the narrative for a few years after his death. It's basically a tradition that the Robins, no matter who they are, will bite off more than they can chew pretty much every adventure, and 9/10 times, it works out in their favor.
> 
> The thing that was unique about Tim was that the creators would exaggerate Tim's awareness and nervousness about how outmatched he was in comparison to Jason and Dick. With Dick, you expect a daredevil smile and a quick quip, with Jason a bit more attitude and maybe some righteous anger, and Tim would generally have an internal monologue consisting of more verbose paraphrases of "Oh crap, oh crap, oh crap..."


Definatly. It`s not like he was gonna look bad because of it. He was dead. There was exageration in the selling, but I understand it was a tool to make Tim work. 

Those kind of monologues were great and part of what made his fans grow up with Tim. The encounter I described with the Cluemaster where he considers killing him because of Oxygen running out is great.

----------


## Lhynn

Sigh...

Reckless: utterly unconcerned about the consequences of some action; without caution; careless ; characterized by or proceeding from such carelessness:
rash, heedless, incautious, negligent, imprudent.

This forum has a serious problem with people knowing more about comics than about their own language. Anyway, with that out of the way.




> "Always"? What an oversimplification.


Granted, it may be one, but being careless has never been a part of his character. It just goes against his very nature and origin. If he has been depicted that way its been due to WIS.





> Tim wanted to done the mask before he was ready to avenge his mother, after he did it the first time. This is after a brief argument with Batman where he _yells_ at him that he won`t let his anger explode (visual irony et all) despite anger not being the direct factor that led to Jason`s demise. Love was.


Sure, difference is that someone reckless like jason would have gone and done it anyway. Tim knew better, he knew to listen to batman.





> He went after the Joker to only get himself nearly killed, fresh out of his training. If that`s not reckles, another trait to consider would be _pretentious_.


It was neither, it was heroic. The city was falling into chaos and he was the only one in gotham with a set of skills that gave him a fighting chance. Alfred was his back up every step of the way, he conducted a full on investigation and managed to foil all of jokers plans before capturing him.




> During the early days of Knightfall, Tim jumps in on a tv show and down Nygma, despite him being surrounded by the police with a finger ready to blow up a bomb. Want to guess what Bullock told him?


Granted, this wasnt very in line with the character.




> He went after Jean Paul (twice) against Bruce`s direct orders and nearly got himself killed. You know what Bruce calls him in the second time he did that? Guess.


Gotta make everyone else look bad so that Bruce eventual victory is sweeter yo.





> In one of his (of not the first) encounter with the Cluemaster, he ends up getting buried alive and only survives again, out of sheer luck. He talies Cluemaster and his gang in, without a especific idea of where they were going to go next and without backup, since he left Steph in the dark about it. He got rescued because Steph eventually found them. Without having a clue about Tim being there, mind you.


Hm, true, this is a good example of him understimating his opponent and acting carelessly. He was trying to both protect steph and catch the bad guys tho.




> During Zero Hour when he met Dick/Robin, he wanted to go after a crook barely listening to reason until Dick calms him down.


Again true. He felt like he needed to prove something to dick here, he felt like he wasnt measuring up.




> Getting out alive out of sheer luck is _fooling your enemy_?


Actually it wasnt what i meant. Tim fools his enemy into thinking they are blowing up batman along with a ton of cash. Then proceeds to surprise everyone and take them down.
And i wouldnt call this "luck".
joker.jpg




> So basically, you`re placing Tim, specifically early Tim, to a whole new standard for doing some of the same things the others did?


Nope, im merely stating that almost none of that constitutes recklessness as defined by the dictionary, you can be a cautious person and still take gambles. Probably a poor choice of words on my part. 




> Went "there without a plan" when? You mean when he figured out the Joker was with his mother and instead of just busting throught, had enough a cool head to listen his plan, go to Batman so lives could be saved and then come back after the Joker left said tent to bail his mother out?


Jesus bro, can you just read the first 4 pages of A death in the family? you dont even need to read the whole thing, 4 pages are enough to see where it was going.
Here are some of the words that were thrown around: moody, resentful, reckless, gonna get killed, dangerously aggressive, playing a game, life is a game, hes a mistake, emotional, capricious, angry. 
He steals from batman, he goes on his own.
Tho yes, i will agree that im being unfair on Jason. But you seem to be forgetting that he agreed to wait till Bruce came back before going to meet his mother, and he didnt listen. Im being unfair because i dont think anyone, least of all batman, would have waited in his position, but he was still the one that made the call.




> Which Tim has also done.
> The difference is that by proxis of being compared to Jason, writers used direct contrast to make him appear more cautious by mentioning how reckless Jason was. Jason was more agressive (later Starlin Jay, at least) but there`s little need to pretend that ever since his early days Tim was perfectly cautious.


I didnt say that, i just said he isnt a careless person. Whenever he was there were extenuating circumstances. Not washing your hands after taking a leak because its a matter of life and death doesnt make you dirty, almost never washing your hands does.




> He was _13_ when he started.


Yeah, im not even sure on the age thing. He was either 13 or 14. Allegedly he started training at 12-13, on a summer/spring if i remember correctly, and took up the mantle of robin on a winter. So could have been a little more or a little less than a year.
As far as i know the only time that firmly stated his age was his 16th birthday.

----------


## Aioros22

> Sigh...
> 
> Reckless: utterly unconcerned about the consequences of some action; without caution; careless ; characterized by or proceeding from such carelessness:
> rash, heedless, incautious, negligent, imprudent.
> 
> This forum has a serious problem with people knowing more about comics than about their own language. Anyway, with that out of the way.


That reads a wee bit pretentious to me. But let`s go  :Wink: 




> Granted, it may be one, but being careless has never been a part of his character. It just goes against his very nature and origin. If he has been depicted that way its been due to WIS.


A defining trait does not mean he`s never done it. You probbaly think all Jason did was to be reckless so you can also guess where I`m going with this. 




> Sure, difference is that someone reckless like jason would have gone and done it anyway. Tim knew better, he knew to listen to batman.


Tim puts on the mask the following issue..the thing he says when Batman leaves after the argument is along the lines of "I`m gonna prove him I`m right". 




> It was neither, it was heroic. The city was falling into chaos and he was the only one in gotham with a set of skills that gave him a fighting chance. Alfred was his back up every step of the way, he conducted a full on investigation and managed to foil all of jokers plans before capturing him.


I`m happy to award you this one. You got more scans of the confrontation, tho?




> Granted, this wasnt very in line with the character
> 
> Gotta make everyone else look bad so that Bruce eventual victory is sweeter yo.


 :Wink: 




> Hm, true, this is a good example of him *understimating* his opponent and acting *carelessly.* He was trying to both protect steph and catch the bad guys tho.
> 
> Again true. He felt like he needed to prove something to dick here, he felt like he wasnt measuring up to Dick.


I`m aware his heart was in the right but that`s hardly unique to him. 




> Jesus bro, can you just read the first 4 pages of A death in the family? you dont even need to read the whole thing, 4 pages are enough to see where it was going.
> Here are some of the words that were thrown around: moody, resentful, reckless, gonna get killed, dangerously aggressive, playing a game, life is a game, hes a mistake, emotional, capricious, angry. 
> He steals from batman, he goes on his own.


One should read the whole story because those descriptions aren`t the commomplace even within DITF. Two storyarcs earlier Starlin wrote Jason taking down Two-Face and instead of punching the law into his own hands he decided to not take into revenge to Bruce`s prideful grin. One picks the whole set of stories and then count how often was he was called the things you mention in those pages. Do that experiment.

Those first pages are there for a _reason_ but I`m not going to pretend they easily override all the good things said about Jason up until then, even under Starlin up until the end of Diplomat`s Son. exactly because he wasn`t always (or always solely) defined as such. Jason was going through a quick storyarc about being disgusted with the matters of laws and how easy the crooks seemed to have it due to personal connections. Starlin hit it fast and hard because his end goal was to have a Batman flying solo. This is why Jason looked so much more reckless in one ending of a story to the beginning of another. 

Jason isn`t only those pages like Tim isn`t only the misteps he made in most of the examples I gave you. Or (to both) equally, only the things they accomplished on the way. 




> Tho yes, i will agree that im being unfair on Jason. But you seem to be forgetting that he agreed to wait till Bruce came back before going to meet his mother, and he didnt listen. Im being unfair because i dont think anyone, least of all batman, would have waited in his position, but he was still the one that made the call.


I`m not forgetting it, they all did it.

Case in point, before Knigthfall, when tracking the Mad Hatter, Bruce tells him to stay guarding the entrance in case he needs him. Tim spots a falcon and decides to leave to go after what he suspects to be one of Bane`s men. He gets taken down in the ensuing fight and survives because Bane calls his man off. When he later tells Batman where he`s been, Bruce agress in letting him keep an eye on those but to stay away from Bane. Later, when Bane departs from his men, who does Tim follow? The one he was forbidden to follow. He almost ends up drowning in the sewers.

Likewise, Jason did his call and responsability. But I don`t atribute that decision to base reckleness as some writers tried to pighole to him after his death (like that embarassing tie in with Underworld Unleashed) because it`s not about not listening or not caring about consequences. The decision carried something especific. He saw the Joker leaving and his mother was alone, so he decided to save her out of the situation. The usual tags to him that make him responsible for his own death are "reckless" and "angry" but I don`t see much of one and don`t see anything of the other. 

At most his careleness was going there without the backup (as seen, something across the board true to every Robin) but his intention was only one: save his mother. It wasn`t to take on the Joker, it wasn`t to show off or being angry about something. It as a clear decison of saving his mother outweighting the risk. You can use the Felipe Garzonas example as a decison not being in the right but not here. And even then, we still don`t know what really happened. And boy, did that creep had too many chances on his ass. 




> I didnt say that, i just said he isnt a careless person. Whenever he was there were extenuating circumstances. Not washing your hands after taking a leak because its a matter of life and death doesnt make you dirty, almost never washing your hands does.


As good the analogy is, as you already admitted upon replying, Tim indeed had his moments. 




> Yeah, im not even sure on the age thing. He was either 13 or 14. Allegedly he started training at 12-13, on a summer/spring if i remember correctly, and took up the mantle of robin on a winter. So could have been a little more or a little less than a year.
> As far as i know the only time that firmly stated his age was his 16th birthday.


I`ll admit I`m not a hundred percent sure either but I recall a story during his early training days, before he put on the mask a second time (the Adams design) where Bruce mentions he`s only 13. I think it was the introduction of Harold.

----------


## Aioros22

In a nuthshell in my opinion neither these two are just one main trait, tho I get that it is easier to box them in in simple terms, even among writers. 

I`m enjoying this conversation and I don`t feel it paints Tim any wrong, but it`s still a Tim thread firstmost, so if fellow posters and Tim fans view this as "too much Jason-ism" I`ll stop here. At least it made me re-read some early Tim.

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## Aahz

> Actually it wasnt what i meant. Tim fools his enemy into thinking they are blowing up batman along with a ton of cash. Then proceeds to surprise everyone and take them down.
> And i wouldnt call this "luck".


But I would call it quite risky and very close. The Joker in their previous fight the Joker nearly killed Tim despite Tim ambushing him from behind. The chances for Tim getting killed in this were imo higher than the one for Jason to dying when he went to save his mother.




> Jesus bro, can you just read the first 4 pages of A death in the family? you dont even need to read the whole thing, 4 pages are enough to see where it was going.
> Here are some of the words that were thrown around: moody, resentful, reckless, gonna get killed, dangerously aggressive, playing a game, life is a game, hes a mistake, emotional, capricious, angry. 
> He steals from batman, he goes on his own.


Even in A death in the family it is said that wasn't Jasons usual behaviour just a recent change.
And and the only scene were he is really like this is the first fight when they take down the child porno ring. And these guys were hardly a major thread.

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## Lhynn

> But I would call it quite risky and very close. The Joker in their previous fight the Joker nearly killed Tim despite Tim ambushing him from behind. The chances for Tim getting killed in this were imo higher than the one for Jason to dying when he went to save his mother.


He didnt carelessly jump to stop him. He prepared for it in any way he could. All that was left was him facing him and praying for the best. Thats not being reckless.
Reckless would have been him being in the truck delivering the money, or outright challenging the joker. Cautious and good detective work meant he set up a distraction, discovered the jokers plans and dealt with them, and ambushed the whole gang.




> Even in A death in the family it is said that wasn't Jasons usual behaviour just a recent change.


You mean one of the first times he wasnt characterized as just an edgier dick? yes, i agree.




> And and the only scene were he is really like this is the first fight when they take down the child porno ring. And these guys were hardly a major thread.


It was to establish jason as a character, how he acted as robin and his relationship with bruce. It was setting up the story.

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## Lhynn

> A defining trait does not mean he`s never done it. You probbaly think all Jason did was to be reckless so you can also guess where I`m going with this.


I believe jason was a reckless person. I believe it was his nature and character.




> Tim puts on the mask the following issue..the thing he says when Batman leaves after the argument is along the lines of "I`m gonna prove him I`m right".


And thats not reckless, batman is often wrong.




> I`m happy to award you this one. You got more scans of the confrontation, tho?


Yup, Joker ambushes him. Tim wasnt actually too surprised by this, he kinda called it when he was talking about the visibility. 




> I`m aware his heart was in the right but that`s hardly unique to him.


He was immature and inexperienced back then, it isnt characteristic of the character.




> One should read the whole story because those descriptions aren`t the commomplace even within DITF. Two storyarcs earlier Starlin wrote Jason taking down Two-Face and instead of punching the law into his own hands he decided to not take into revenge to Bruce`s prideful grin. One picks the whole set of stories and then count how often was he was called the things you mention in those pages. Do that experiment.


Yeah, i reread the whole thing and a lonely place of dying before posting. Thing is, this was tense because Bruce knew Jason had unresolved issues. What he didnt know was that even after that confrontation he still hadnt put those issues to rest. If anything they made him more anxious.




> Those first pages are there for a _reason_ but I`m not going to pretend they easily override all the good things said about Jason up until then, even under Starlin up until the end of Diplomat`s Son. exactly because he wasn`t always (or always solely) defined as such. Jason was going through a quick storyarc about being disgusted with the matters of laws and how easy the crooks seemed to have it due to personal connections. Starlin hit it fast and hard because his end goal was to have a Batman flying solo. This is why Jason looked so much more reckless in one ending of a story to the beginning of another.


I dont think Jason was completely defined as a character yet. At least we can agree that this was the story arc that defined his character moving forward.




> Jason isn`t only those pages like Tim isn`t only the misteps he made in most of the examples I gave you. Or (to both) equally, only the things they accomplished on the way. 
> Case in point, before Knigthfall, when tracking the Mad Hatter, Bruce tells him to stay guarding the entrance in case he needs him. Tim spots a falcon and decides to leave to go after what he suspects to be one of Bane`s men. He gets taken down in the ensuing fight and survives because Bane calls his man off. When he later tells Batman where he`s been, Bruce agress in letting him keep an eye on those but to stay away from Bane. Later, when Bane departs from his men, who does Tim follow? The one he was forbidden to follow. He almost ends up drowning in the sewers.


I really dislike old batman and robin arcs, they felt more like batman & victim. Its why i mostly stuck to Tims solo series and later appearances, and the reason i started a thread asking for good Tim stories. I think if we hadnt gotten a robin solo he would have been forgotten long ago.




> Likewise, Jason did his call and responsibility. But I don`t atribute that decision to base reckleness as some writers tried to pighole to him after his death (like that embarassing tie in with Underworld Unleashed) because it`s not about not listening or not caring about consequences. The decision carried something especific. He saw the Joker leaving and his mother was alone, so he decided to save her out of the situation. The usual tags to him that make him responsible for his own death are "reckless" and "angry" but I don`t see much of one and don`t see anything of the other.


Fair enough. Tho i still feel it was his own fault.




> As good the analogy is, as you already admitted upon replying, Tim indeed had his moments.


Yeah, i did acknowledge that on the last post. 




> I`ll admit I`m not a hundred percent sure either but I recall a story during his early training days, before he put on the mask a second time (the Adams design) where Bruce mentions he`s only 13. I think it was the introduction of Harold.


He started training at 13, he finished either shortly before or shortly after he was 14. 




> In a nuthshell in my opinion neither these two are just one main trait, tho I get that it is easier to box them in in simple terms, even among writers.


Jason is defined by his anger and recklessness. Hes shot innocent people, he has killed. One could compare him to anarchy and would find that anarchy is actually more noble.




> I`m enjoying this conversation and I don`t feel it paints Tim any wrong, but it`s still a Tim thread firstmost, so if fellow posters and Tim fans view this as "too much Jason-ism" I`ll stop here. At least it made me re-read some early Tim.


Eh, its a Tim vs Jason talk in a way, so it taking place here or there makes no difference.
Besides, its not like theres an active discussion at the moment that we are getting in the way of.

----------


## Aahz

> He didnt carelessly jump to stop him. He prepared for it in any way he could. All that was left was him facing him and praying for the best. Thats not being reckless.
> Reckless would have been him being in the truck delivering the money, or outright challenging the joker. Cautious and good detective work meant he set up a distraction, discovered the jokers plans and dealt with them, and ambushed the whole gang.


Still going alone (intead of teaming up with the police for example) against the Joker and his complete gang was very risky. Since Tim was that as this point still at the beginning of his career (Joker wasn't even aware that Batman had a new Robin) and had sofar iirc never faced a real Batman villain. 




> You mean one of the first times he wasnt characterized as just an edgier dick? yes, i agree.


It was just this one issue, and it was said that Jason had emotional problems at this point. And that wasn't his typical self. Defining his character just by Death in the Family would be like defining Dick by his actions after the death of Blockbuster when he was at his lowest point or Bruce on how he behaved after Jasons or Damians Death.

----------


## Aahz

> He started training at 13, he finished either shortly before or shortly after he was 14.


Tim was 13 in A Lonley Place of Dying. In the second miniseries it was shown that he was allready in 9th grade, which would make him roughly  fourteen and a half at this point (story was set around Christmas). His 14t birthday was probably around the time of the first mini series.Even if that raises the question what he exactly did during the issue wher Bruce gave him the costume (which was also placed at Christmas) at the first mini.

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## KrustyKid

So with this latest issue it is confirmed Tim Drake is still 16.

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## Atlanta96

> So with this latest issue it is confirmed Tim Drake is still 16.


I thought he was supposed to be 17. Wasn't that stated in an issue or an interview?

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## Aahz

The 16 feels still wrong for me in the context of the new 52. If Dick and Jason where allready 16 when they became Robin (that was confirmed for Jason in his rebirth issue), Tim shouldn't be allready a solo hero at that age.

And he really shouldn't be the same age as the We Are Robin Kids. Esspecailly when they plan to put him in collage. It wouldn't have a great effect on the character if they would finally make him 18, and they can finally stopp coming up with explanation why he can do legally stuff that he is to young for.

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## Lhynn

> Still going alone (intead of teaming up with the police for example) against the Joker and his complete gang was very risky. Since Tim was that as this point still at the beginning of his career (Joker wasn't even aware that Batman had a new Robin) and had sofar iirc never faced a real Batman villain.


Going alone or letting the Joker escape, those were the options, he could not wait for the police. Also taking risks doesnt make you careless, not being prepared is what makes you careless. Tim was prepared, most of the arc is him making mental preparation and planning. And the last issue deals with him keeping calm and following his training even in the most dire of circumstances.

Reckless is a dude that jumps into the action with no plan, two guns, a bright red spot masking his face and praying that things turn out for the best.




> It was just this one issue, and it was said that Jason had emotional problems at this point. And that wasn't his typical self. Defining his character just by Death in the Family would be like defining Dick by his actions after the death of Blockbuster when he was at his lowest point or Bruce on how he behaved after Jasons or Damians Death.


Doesnt matter if it was half an issue or whatnot, jason has been defined as that kid. His entire character is in fact. You read any issue where even a little of jasons personality shines through, youll see the same violent, reckless dude you saw in a Death in the Family.
As i said before, jason didnt really have a personality back then, he was a dick clone. The one they gave him after that was that of an angry teenager with emotional baggage and a heart of gold.

----------


## Caivu

Re: Tim's age...

Could he have just meant that he built (or started building) all those things when he was 16, and not that he currently is 16?

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## Aahz

> Re: Tim's age...
> 
> Could he have just meant that he built (or started building) all those things when he was 16, and not that he currently is 16?


In B&RE it was also said that he is 16.

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## Jadeb

I was hoping DC was getting a better handle on Tim with Rebirth, but I'm starting to lose faith. The latest Teen Titans tries to make Tim look good, but instead it just makes the other characters look like idiots. And the latest Tec continues Tynion's obsession with making Tim the brightest and best at everything. Now he's designing bullet trains! Tim ought to be accomplished, but his original appeal was that he was relatable and (relatively) realistic. That's gone entirely.

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## Atlanta96

> I was hoping DC was getting a better handle on Tim with Rebirth, but I'm starting to lose faith. The latest Teen Titans tries to make Tim look good, but instead it just makes the other characters look like idiots. And the latest Tec continues Tynion's obsession with making Tim the brightest and best at everything. Now he's designing bullet trains! Tim ought to be accomplished, but his original appeal was that he was relatable and (relatively) realistic. That's gone entirely.


Well 'Tec Tim is still a massive improvement over New 52 Tim. We could be seeing his character revert back to normal gradually. I'd wait until he has a leading role in a series before judging Post-Rebirth Tim. Or Post-Death Tim.

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## Jadeb

> Well 'Tec Tim is still a massive improvement over New 52 Tim. We could be seeing his character revert back to normal gradually. I'd wait until he has a leading role in a series before judging Post-Rebirth Tim. Or Post-Death Tim.


That's what I thought at first, but he's still an unbearably smug know-it-all Mary Sue. Not convinced what we have now is much better than what we had in the New 52. Tynion claims to love the character, but the Tim he's writing bears little resemblance to pre-52 Tim. And it's not getting better, it's getting worse.

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## godisawesome

> I was hoping DC was getting a better handle on Tim with Rebirth, but I'm starting to lose faith. The latest Teen Titans tries to make Tim look good, but instead it just makes the other characters look like idiots. And the latest Tec continues Tynion's obsession with making Tim the brightest and best at everything. Now he's designing bullet trains! Tim ought to be accomplished, but his original appeal was that he was relatable and (relatively) realistic. That's gone entirely.


I think it's a bit disingenuous to try and qualify New 52 Teen Titans Volume 2 as part of Rebirth; we all know the series is being replaced, the only characters from the book confirmed to still be published in Rebirth are be redesigned and given new teams, and it's pretty clearly just a placeholder title with very few readers. The writer for the issue seems to still be following the previous writers interpretation of Tim in a pretty rote manner. I'd be hard pressed to say this Tim is all that similar to Rebirth Tim.

Though I will admit a certain trepidation to Tim still being the tech guy for 'Tec, though I don't think it's quite as bad as you think it is. Tynion at least took the time to have Tim explain the impetus and science behind the BatBullets, and established they're not finished yet. That's more than can be said for Tim constantly pulling yachts and penthouses and other secret HQs out of his butt in TT. 

And I'll cut Tynion a lot of slack for this issue considering 2 things: he's got credit to spend after actually showing Tim as a teenager out of costume and talking about college in 'Tec's second issue in Rebirth, and the book's still almost _ludicrously_ crowded with characters. Steph, Cass, and Clayface have gotten one or two panels to remind us they're there in the last two issues, and Tynion's pretty efficiently spent what few lines (or emotes, in the case of Cass) to fit their classic characterization. I sometimes feel he's got the story so decompressed because it's the only way to give his main characters for the arc (Batwoman, her father, and Tim) any kind of character progression and have the rest of the cast do anything. Tim seems written right now as the veteran vigilante for he group, and an effective number 2 to Batwoman. That's a lot more quiet competence than he had in TT.

Though, yeah, there is something obnoxious about a superhero who keeps typing on his wrist to fight someone. Though even there, Tynion did make Tim eat crow when General out-hacked him in the previous issue.

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## Atlanta96

> That's what I thought at first, but he's still an unbearably smug know-it-all Mary Sue. Not convinced what we have now is much better than what we had in the New 52. Tynion claims to love the character, but the Tim he's writing bears little resemblance to pre-52 Tim. And it's not getting better, it's getting worse.


I liked Tim how he was before the reboot, but he has more characters to compete with now than he'd did in his early days. Average Tim just doesn't work as well nowadays, he needs to show some exceptional skills to hold up against Damian, Jason, and Duke. And he needs to show a bit of attitude as well.

I agree he could be a bit more humble about his skills than he's been so far. But he's not an insufferable screw up like he was in TT, and he's not as good a fighter as some of his teammates (Bruce and Cass) so he isn't exactly a Mary Sue. And his interactions with the other characters do remind me a lot of Pre-52 Tim.

Like I said, it's still the early days of Rebirth. Who knows what Tim will be like when he actually gets a story dedicated to him.

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## KrustyKid

> I liked Tim how he was before the reboot, but he has more characters to compete with now than he'd did in his early days. Average Tim just doesn't work as well nowadays, he needs to show some exceptional skills to hold up against Damian, Jason, and Duke. And he needs to show a bit of attitude as well.
> 
> I agree he could be a bit more humble about his skills than he's been so far. But he's not an insufferable screw up like he was in TT, and he's not as good a fighter as some of his teammates (Bruce and Cass) so he isn't exactly a Mary Sue. And his interactions with the other characters do remind me a lot of Pre-52 Tim.
> 
> Like I said, it's still the early days of Rebirth. Who knows what Tim will be like when he actually gets a story dedicated to him.


Great post Atlanta96. You hit it right on the nail. If his skills weren't to the level of where they are now it would be hard to circle him down as one of the vets. And like you said he'd be near a level of redundancy compared to the skill sets of most of his peers.

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## Atlanta96

> Great post Atlanta96. You hit it right on the nail. If his skills weren't to the level of where they are now it would be hard to circle him down as one of the vets. And like you said he'd be near a level of redundancy compared to the skill sets of most of his peers.


And it makes sense that he'd be smarter and more proficient with technology after years of working with the Bat-Family, so it's not entirely out of character either. We just haven't seen his transition from average kid with great potential to genius level train designer  :Smile:

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## KrustyKid

> And it makes sense that he'd be smarter and more proficient with technology after years of working with the Bat-Family, so it's not entirely out of character either. We just haven't seen his transition from average kid with great potential to genius level train designer


My thoughts exactly.

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## josai21

I feel like Red Robin was slowly bringing us to that point, but I never saw Tim as innately the "science robin."

For me his intelligence played out more in his tactics and management of Gotham City. He's always been more of a strategist to me as opposed to science nerd though I don't deny it was an aspect of his character.

Feel like N52 pushed that aspect too hard.

It is what it is though.

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## Jadeb

> I liked Tim how he was before the reboot, but he has more characters to compete with now than he'd did in his early days. Average Tim just doesn't work as well nowadays, he needs to show some exceptional skills to hold up against Damian, Jason, and Duke. And he needs to show a bit of attitude as well.


This is an arms race Tim can't win. Jason got killed and came back from the dead to kill people. Damian's whole shtick is that he's impossibly exceptional -- a vicious mini Batman. Those characters are meant to be larger than life. Better to contrast Tim to that than try to make him more of the same.

If Tim didn't exist, would anyone really clamor for the Batfamily to add a smug, genius teenage computer hacker? It's a terrible concept for a character.

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## Atlanta96

> This is an arms race Tim can't win. Jason got killed and came back from the dead to kill people. Damian's whole shtick is that he's impossibly exceptional -- a vicious mini Batman. Those characters are meant to be larger than life. Better to contrast Tim to that than try to make him more of the same.
> 
> If Tim didn't exist, would anyone really clamor for the Batfamily to add a smug, genius teenage computer hacker? It's a terrible concept for a character.


Tim was always a genius computer hacker, just minus the smug part. He worked cause there were other elements to his character, which New 52 Tim has been lacking. Despite being prominently featured in all New 52 TT books, there hasn't really been any effort to flesh out or expand his character beyond "arrogant tech expert". Except for his Zero Month issue, and we all know how that turned out.

To make Tim great again, I don't think they need to move away from the tech geek stuff. They just need to expand him beyond that, and bring back the personality traits that made people like him in the first place. And I don't think it's hard to contrast Tim with Jason and Damian, he's never been anything like those two.

----------


## Dataweaver

Name his personality traits.

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## Atlanta96

> Name his personality traits.


I did a great job describing his character in an older post, I should try tracking that one down. But I'll list his traits here.

When written well he's serious, but not an over-serious buzzkill. He can still be a fun upbeat character who enjoys crime fighting at the right times, despite his cautious nature. I'd like to say he's confident but humble, but his humbleness has not yet been restored. He's a bit of a geek and slightly introverted but is still able to form close relationships with others and come off as a cool vigilante.

I'd say his main appeal is that he's cerebral, calculating and cautious, but still has a spark of enthusiasm and optimism that fleshes him out.

Edit: Here's that other post I mentioned.



> Tim: Slightly geeky detective and tech expert who approaches crime fighting with caution and uses strategy and planning to defeat his opponents. Also sociable and charismatic despite his serious and professional approach to heroics. Struggles with tragic life experiences and insecurity.

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## godisawesome

Caution, a sweet awkwardness around girls once anything remotely resembling romance comes up, a tendency to become more withdrawn and introspective when he observes bad things, a definite humility about his martial skills combined with occasional cockiness in terms of his mental prowess (stuff like "I lie to Batman", "...you weren't worth the nose plugs", etc.), a major preference for lateral warfare with an aversion to direct confrontation, and a relaxed and more subtle sense of humor than his brothers, and he was developing a far more theatrical and manipulative M.O. before Flashpoint.

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## godisawesome

> This is an arms race Tim can't win. Jason got killed and came back from the dead to kill people. Damian's whole shtick is that he's impossibly exceptional -- a vicious mini Batman. Those characters are meant to be larger than life. Better to contrast Tim to that than try to make him more of the same.
> 
> If Tim didn't exist, would anyone really clamor for the Batfamily to add a smug, genius teenage computer hacker? It's a terrible concept for a character.


I'm curious what you thought of Tim's Red Robin development before Flashpoint, because he was certainly developing to participate in this "arms race" in a different way from the New 52's gadgeteer genius. I've mentioned previously how they were giving him a strong theatrical and manipulation streak; I think it bears some review to point out how Fabian Nicieza was developing Tim. 

Tim was doing stuff like challenging some villains to public fights while trying to secretly undermine others without them being aware of it, and was all about using public theater to accomplish goals; he hacks into Mikalek's network surreptitiously as Tim Drake, while arranging a hit on his civilian ID that "only hobbles him" for cover from Anarky and using a smattering of Mandarin to challenge and defeat Lynx in Chinatown while speechifying, only to again surreptitiously free her on the off chance she really was an undercover cop. Not to mention that when Nicieza found out he was down to only a few issues, he decided to spend the last one showing Tim almost killing Boomerang entirely by playing him like a Chessmaster and only barely revealing himself at the end.

If they'd kept that character evolution, we'd have Dick who basically blitzes his opponents and charms everyone else, Jason who shoots and blows up enemies, Tim who plays them like a fiddle and makes a public spectacle if he needs to, and Damian the growing demonic half-pint who's still probably the least dangerous physically, but only because of size.

Instead, Lobdell kind of tried to adapt the idea while being tone deaf to its subtleties. Nicieza once mentioned that writing a smart character like Tim meant you had to think hard to give him good plans and strategies, while Lobdell went with a shallow portrayal that often paid lipservice to Tim being smart but handicapped any strategies he had with over-powered villains or just _dumb_ plans. And the rest of Tim's personality was ignored because you could tell Lobdell was trying to write a broad version of Nightwing in terms of love-life, leadership, and social interaction.

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## Lhynn

He also likes playing around with people, he enjoys being smart. Teasing others about knowing more than them was never about feeling better about himself, its always been about pushing their buttons.
He has a knack for quick thinking and for looking at the bigger picture. He has a lot of bruce best traits while still being fallible and relatable. Hes the eternal underdog, always fighting something bigger than himself, hes david and theres nothing quite like watching him take down goliath. Bruce and dick may be able to beat Ras on a straight fight, but Tim took down his entire organization, and thats a far more interesting conflict.

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## Atlanta96

3 different Tim Drake fans just described his character in different and unique ways, without contradicting each other once. I can't believe people think he's a dull character, there sure is a lot to analyze.

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## Aahz

> I'd like to say he's confident but humble, but his humbleness has not yet been restored.


Even back than liked to remind others that he that he knew their secret identities and they didn't knew his (and completely over reacted when Batman revealed his identity to Steph).

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## phantom1592

> Even back than liked to remind others that he that he knew their secret identities and they didn't knew his (and completely over reacted when Batman revealed his identity to Steph).


Seemed a legitimate reaction to me. Batman has always been VERY specific about their IDs... If Tim or Dick revealed who was Robin... then it was REALLY easy to trace back who Batman was. Tim had jumped through hoops and taken beatings and done a LOT to protect Bruce's secret. To have him unilaterally decide who gets to know his?? 

That was deep in Bat-jerk territory. Steph may have been a 'decent' character at the time... but in the Bat-universe she was one bad breakup away from being Tim's next arch-enemy... Heck that's true for most 'non'-vigilante high school girls  :Wink:

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## Aahz

> I liked Tim how he was before the reboot, but he has more characters to compete with now than he'd did in his early days. Average Tim just doesn't work as well nowadays, he needs to show some exceptional skills to hold up against Damian, Jason, and Duke. And he needs to show a bit of attitude as well.


I think the tech stuff is also partly a result of the increased appearance of "sci-fi-tech" in the Batman franchise since Morrison. When Tim was introduced Batman didn't had power armors or flying Batmobiels and used in general not that much tech. It kind of makes sense that Tim, who was always quite tech and computer affine now also uses more high tech stuff.

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## Lhynn

> Seemed a legitimate reaction to me. Batman has always been VERY specific about their IDs... If Tim or Dick revealed who was Robin... then it was REALLY easy to trace back who Batman was. Tim had jumped through hoops and taken beatings and done a LOT to protect Bruce's secret. To have him unilaterally decide who gets to know his?? 
> 
> That was deep in Bat-jerk territory. Steph may have been a 'decent' character at the time... but in the Bat-universe she was one bad breakup away from being Tim's next arch-enemy... Heck that's true for most 'non'-vigilante high school girls


Gotta agree here. Both Bruce and Steph did some really screwed up things to Tim, at some point.
Also steph has almost always been a good character, i like it that shes selfish.

----------


## Aioros22

> I believe jason was a reckless person. I believe it was his nature and character.


I can tell you do. 




> And thats not reckless, batman is often wrong.


You`re trying to excuse a behavour that you would blatantly tag as reckless to someone else but not Tim despite being a reckless atitude. 




> I really dislike old batman and robin arcs, they felt more like batman & victim. Its why i mostly stuck to Tims solo series and later appearances, and the reason i started a thread asking for good Tim stories. I think if we hadnt gotten a robin solo he would have been forgotten long ago.


I can see that, but the Cluemaster arc was from his solo. That Zero Hour encounter was in his solo. There`s more tho, during Prodigial Son (and already during his solo run), you have scenes like Tim flat out disobeying Dick/Batman and running to catch Flannegan only to fall from the ledge until Batman catches him. Dick responds with this: "That was stupid, boy wonder!". Later he tells Dick the werebouts of Two Face and tells him he`s going there to trail him but for Dick not to worry because he won`t face him. Next scene, he`s bounded by Two Face. 

I know what you`re going to say. "Making others look good". Well, buddy, that works for everyone  :Wink: 




> Yeah, i reread the whole thing and a lonely place of dying before posting. Thing is, this was tense because Bruce knew Jason had unresolved issues. What he didnt know was that even after that confrontation he still hadnt put those issues to rest. If anything they made him more anxious.


Which he only saw with the way he dealt with the child-ring mooks, which happened right after. 

We`re talking of especific situations here, not a character running amok reckless 24/7 for his whole run. 




> I dont think Jason was completely defined as a character yet. At least we can agree that this was the story arc that defined his character moving forward.


You pick a story where he died as character graduation, when he was already defined as such before it. The danger in just using a popular story, pivotal as it may be to define _character_, especially if you`ve only read that story is falling in the type of following mindset: "hey, he wasn`t acting reckless before? He was just sleepy, because if he wasn`t he would be punching people and disobeying Batman for the day"  :Wink: 

As you can see, you don`t let Tim`s rundabouts of mistakes define him. No, for you they`re sometimes Batman`s fault or just Tim learning the ropes. Likewise why should I define Jason`s character solely based on a plot demanding especific drama?




> Jason is defined by his anger and recklessness. *Hes shot innocent people, he has killed. One could compare him to anarchy and would find that anarchy is actually more noble*.


Robin/Jason was especifically reckless towards the _end_ of his role because of a stoyarc. He was never anything like Anarchy. The Jason who did those things (I`m assuming you mean in UTRH), wasn`t/isn`t much of a reckless guy but a planner and tactical mind. 

No, I wouldn`t find Anarchy nobler. You have tons of stories pre and post his death of Jason saving innocents, friends and even the world. What do you got for Anarchy? 

Even the story you`re using to define Jay as the angry guy, look at it: DITF starts with anger but it doesn`t end on that note. It ends with Jason helping saving thousands of lives from a Joker nuclear plot and giving his last breath saving someone who had betray him. Even in UTRH, it ends with a plea of a son who feels forsaken by his father. Someone who seeks justice. It`s Greek tragedy about nobality. 

Taking a step further. In those stories Jason`s anger works as the instigator of an especific plotline not the surmation of character or abilities. 




> Eh, its a Tim vs Jason talk in a way, so it taking place here or there makes no difference.
> Besides, its not like theres an active discussion at the moment that we are getting in the way of.


Thanks, I appreciate that  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> It was just this one issue, and it was said that Jason had emotional problems at this point. And that wasn't his typical self. Defining his character just by Death in the Family would be like defining Dick by his actions after the death of Blockbuster when he was at his lowest point or Bruce on how he behaved after Jasons or Damians Death.


That`s more or less the geist of it. 

Out of curiosity Lhynn, how many Jason/Robin stories you`ve read?

----------


## Aahz

> No, I wouldn`t find Anarchy nobler. You have tons of stories pre and post his death of Jason saving innocents, friends and even the world. What do you got for Anarchy?


It is hard to compare Anarky with Jason, since Anarky is more an activist than a crime fighter. He is someone who wants to cure the disease and they symptoms. His goals are actually quite noble his methods not so much.
(At least as long we are speaking about the original Version).

----------


## Lhynn

> You`re trying to excuse a behavour that you would blatantly tag as reckless to someone else but not Tim despite being a reckless atitude.


Naw, one thing is being independent and another is being reckless. Tim thought for himself and did his own research. He knew he could work with helena because he had already studied her. He never had a moment that he regreted that decision that i know of.




> I can see that, but the Cluemaster arc was from his solo.


cluemaster.jpg
You seem to believe that failing or getting caught means you were careless. That is not the case, often even the best plan doesnt survive the battlefield, but that doesnt mean you werent careful, that only means you are not omniscient. Keeping steph out of harms way was his way of protecting her, this isnt reckless either, he knows shes untrained, he knows she has a personal stake on this.





> That Zero Hour encounter was in his solo.


Sure, but i already stated that yes, that was a good example of him behaving in a careless manner. Also told you why.




> There`s more tho, during Prodigial Son (and already during his solo run), you have scenes like Tim flat out disobeying Dick/Batman and running to catch Flannegan only to fall from the ledge until Batman catches him. Dick responds with this: "That was stupid, boy wonder!". Later he tells Dick the werebouts of Two Face and tells him he`s going there to trail him but for Dick not to worry because he won`t face him. Next scene, he`s bounded by Two Face.


Boy victim bro, that was a thing back then. Weve talked about this.




> I know what you`re going to say. "Making others look good". Well, buddy, that works for everyone


It does, but jason being angry and reckless and careless wasnt about making batman look good.





> Which he only saw with the way he dealt with the child-ring mooks, which happened right after. 
> We`re talking of especific situations here, not a character running amok reckless 24/7 for his whole run.


Ive never seen Jason do much detective work or research on his Red Hood Run. 




> You pick a story where he died as character graduation, when he was already defined as such before it. The danger in just using a popular story, pivotal as it may be to define _character_, especially if you`ve only read that story is falling in the type of following mindset: "hey, he wasn`t acting reckless before? He was just sleepy, because if he wasn`t he would be punching people and disobeying Batman for the day"


Im not picking a story, im pointing at almost everything that came after it. That story defined him.




> As you can see, you don`t let Tim`s rundabouts of mistakes define him. No, for you they`re sometimes Batman`s fault or just Tim learning the ropes. Likewise why should I define Jason`s character solely based on a plot demanding especific drama?


Do i have to quote myself defining recklessness again? Because you seem to mix the concept. One can take every precaution and still fail. Lack of experience, bad luck or simply the enemy being better prepared doesnt make you reckless. What makes you reckless is constant leaps of faith.





> Robin/Jason was especifically reckless towards the _end_ of his role because of a stoyarc. He was never anything like Anarchy. The Jason who did those things (I`m assuming you mean in UTRH), wasn`t/isn`t much of a reckless guy but a planner and tactical mind.


Under the red hood was about him being mean to daddy because daddy didnt grieve him enough. You are right, he was never like anarchy.





> No, I wouldn`t find Anarchy nobler. You have tons of stories pre and post his death of Jason saving innocents, friends and even the world.


Sure, hes a good guy. Most of the time anyway.




> What do you got for Anarchy?


A few stories about him being an asshole for the greater good. What i was comparing is how both are often misguided.




> Even the story you`re using to define Jay as the angry guy, look at it: DITF starts with anger but it doesn`t end on that note. It ends with Jason helping saving thousands of lives from a Joker nuclear plot and giving his last breath saving someone who had betray him.


Again, not questioning his morals, tho he has been known to bend or break them if hes angry enough.




> Even in UTRH, it ends with a plea of a son who feels forsaken by his father. Someone who seeks justice. It`s Greek tragedy about nobality.


And my advice to him would be "grow up". "Daddy doesnt love you anymore" is not a good enough reason to stab heroes and shoot innocents. 




> Taking a step further. In those stories Jason`s anger works as the instigator of an especific plotline not the surmation of character or abilities.


Sure. Thats where his recklessness takes over.
The fist time Tim felt really betrayed and tragically lonely he took down the LoA and saved batmans and bruce legacy. The first time that happened for Jason we got UTRH.

----------


## Lhynn

> That`s more or less the geist of it. 
> 
> Out of curiosity Lhynn, how many Jason/Robin stories you`ve read?


Hmm, lonely place of dying, UTRH, RHATO, batman and robin eternal and the latest rebirth issue, and thats about it. I have read some of his stuff outside of that here and there but never got my attention long enough to actually finish reading.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm curious, what is everyone's favorite issue involving Tim? Not story arch, but rather a single issue?

----------


## godisawesome

Oddly enough for me, Nightwing #25, The Boys. Mostly because I think it was the first action hero comic I ever read where 100% of its page time was devoted to getting character interaction down pat.

----------


## Aioros22

> Hmm, lonely place of dying, UTRH, RHATO, batman and robin eternal and the latest rebirth issue, and thats about it. I have read some of his stuff outside of that here and there but never got my attention long enough to actually finish reading.


So, not much. Okay.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'm curious, what is everyone's favorite issue involving Tim? Not story arch, but rather a single issue?


Nightwing 25, indeed!



It's been a long time ago, but I remember I enjoyed this one too:
Robin #0



And the three miniseries plus most part of solo Robin series was excellent.
Loved Tim a lot, then Damian came...

----------


## Aioros22

> Naw, one thing is being independent and another is being reckless. Tim thought for himself and did his own research. He knew he could work with helena because he had already studied her. *He never had a moment that he regreted* that decision that i know of.


You keep harping "research" when replying to a quote that is about Tim disobeying Bruce before he done the costume the second time. What for? And why the bolded when you`ve agreed on the character having his moments?

He regretted even considering killing the Cluemaster. He regretted going after Jean Paul when Bruce yelled him not to and almost died on the highway on a crash. Why do you keep pretending that everything Tim did only backfired because he wasn`t omniscent?

Are you so bend on excusing every single time Tim has done something opposite of the so called non reckless trait that you`re somehow uncomfortable with it? 




> You seem to believe that failing or getting caught *means you were careless. That is not the case*, often even the best plan doesnt survive the battlefield, but that doesnt mean you werent careful, that only means you are not omniscient. Keeping steph out of harms way was his way of protecting her, this isnt reckless either, he knows shes untrained, he knows she has a personal stake on this.


Jason`s plan wasn`t grand (neither was Tim`s) but why is Jason clear agenda of nabbing his mother out of the place when he knew the Joker was not in her tent anymore careless or reckless than Tim getting caught in that van with the Cluemaster without knowing what would happen seconds later?

There isn`t one especifically between these situations, other than the characters being different. Are you awarding Tim more because he`s a square? Be honest  :Cool: 




> Sure, but i already stated that yes, that was a good example of him behaving in a careless manner. Also told you why.
> Boy victim bro, that was a thing back then. Weve talked about this.


Hush, baby. There`s no "why" here. Was he? Point. 




> It does, but jason being angry and reckless and careless wasnt about making batman look good.


Haha, I love it. You have to say "reckless *and* careless" to try to bring your point home. It was done by a writer with a end goal of having Batman solo because Robin was a silly concept. I have little care in who looked better, what was done, was done to the expense of Jason the most so it wasn`t certainly him. 




> Ive never seen Jason do much detective work or research on his Red Hood Run.


You haven`t seen him do research despite him always being a step ahead of everyone else in the story? You haven`t read him clearing Black Lightning`s name by having intel that Dick Grayson, nay anybody else had *no* idea about?

P.S: Dick and BL were part of the same title/legacy/team back then. There was an ongoing plot going on to clear his name. 




> Do i have to quote myself defining recklessness again? Because you seem to mix the concept. One can take every precaution and still fail. Lack of experience, bad luck or simply the enemy being better prepared doesnt make you reckless. What makes you reckless is constant leaps of faith.


All I would request is you to actually use the definition to every character situation around. Not lay excuses to some when they do it. Tim jerking off after Jean Paul and bust redwing had nothing to do with with Jean Paul being better prepared. 




> Under the red hood was about him being mean to daddy because daddy didnt grieve him enough. You are right, he was never like anarchy.


Glad we agree with UTRH being Greek Tragedy.

I`m not even going to mention Dick and Tim being moody to Bruce daddy the times they were given the backseat because I enjoy Greek Tragedy. 




> And my advice to him would be "grow up". "Daddy doesnt love you anymore" is not a good enough reason to *stab heroes* and shoot innocents.


And true enough he has. You know that if you`ve read RATHO since the first issue. 

Which innocents? They`ve been retconned since or changed to currupt agents. 




> Sure. Thats where his recklessness takes over.
> The fist time Tim felt really betrayed and tragically lonely he took down the LoA and saved batmans and bruce legacy. The first time that happened for Jason we got UTRH.


The first time Tim really felt betrayed he hit Bruce`s infant son square in the face.

You know why? Because Tim isn`t a walking Jesus and just like all the others he didn`t stop being into the role amicably. Hence plots like creating a network in the streets under Nicieza.

----------


## Lhynn

> You keep harping "research" when replying to a quote that is about Tim disobeying Bruce before he done the costume the second time. What for? And why the bolded when you`ve agreed on the character having his moments?
> He regretted even considering killing the Cluemaster. He regretted going after Jean Paul when Bruce yelled him not to and almost died on the highway on a crash. Why do you keep pretending that everything Tim did only backfired because he wasn`t omniscent?
> Are you so bend on excusing every single time Tim has done something opposite of the so called non reckless trait that you`re somehow uncomfortable with it?


was talking about the decision of teaming up with helena. And you know i was, a better question would be why take what i said out of context?




> Jason`s plan wasn`t grand (neither was Tim`s) but why is Jason clear agenda of nabbing his mother out of the place when he knew the Joker was not in her tent anymore careless or reckless than Tim getting caught in that van with the Cluemaster without knowing what would happen seconds later?
> There isn`t one especifically between these situations, other than the characters being different. Are you awarding Tim more because he`s a square? Be honest


Uhm, why do you keep taking things out of context? go reread what i said in every post and show me where i refered to that particular action.





> Hush, baby. There`s no "why" here. Was he? Point.


The point is that sometimes characters are writen out of character to facilitate a development. In jasons case he didnt really have a character until they gave him the reckless bad boy with a chip on his shoulder one. It defined him.




> Haha, I love it. You have to say "reckless *and* careless" to try to bring your point home. It was done by a writer with a end goal of having Batman solo because Robin was a silly concept. I have little care in who looked better, what was done, was done to the expense of Jason the most so it wasn`t certainly him.


No it wasnt, people hated jason and people killed jason. This wasnt editorial or something about the plot, it was left in the hands of the readers.
Need i remind you just how popular and loved dick was? and how popular and loved tim was?




> You haven`t seen him do research despite him always being a step ahead of everyone else in the story? You haven`t read him clearing Black Lightning`s name by having intel that Dick Grayson, nay anybody else had *no* idea about?
> P.S: Dick and BL were part of the same title/legacy/team back then. There was an ongoing plot going on to clear his name.


Nope.




> All I would request is you to actually use the definition to every character situation around. Not lay excuses to some when they do it. Tim jerking off after Jean Paul and bust redwing had nothing to do with with Jean Paul being better prepared.


It had everything to do with the characters writing a robin to fit the needs of the plot regardless of the personality or character of said robin.




> And true enough he has. You know that if you`ve read RATHO since the first issue. 
> 
> Which innocents? They`ve been *retconned* since or changed to currupt agents.


As i said, i cant account for how much the character has changed or evolved, what i do know is who the character was and what defined him.




> The first time Tim really felt betrayed he hit Bruce`s infant son square in the face.
> You know why? Because Tim isn`t a walking Jesus and just like all the others he didn`t stop being into the role amicably. Hence plots like creating a network in the streets under Nicieza.


well, actually the first time he stormed out of the place because bruce had told steph his secret identity. After Tim protected Bruces identity at almost the cost of his life and a couple of very humilliating events.
Dick fired him as a robin because he felt the little murderer needed to be kept under control, and Tim resented him for that. Until it became of little importance compared to the real problems he had at the time.
Anyway, point is, the betrayal didnt come from the twerp, it came from dick, cassie and steph.

----------


## phantom1592

> Jason`s plan wasn`t grand (neither was Tim`s) but why is Jason clear agenda of nabbing his mother out of the place when he knew the Joker was not in her tent anymore careless or reckless than Tim getting caught in that van with the Cluemaster without knowing what would happen seconds later?
> All I would request is you to actually use the definition to every character situation around. Not lay excuses to some when they do it.


One of the most reckless parts of Jason's 'plan' that always boggled my mind... was walking into strange woman #3's tent and essentially saying 'I'm Jason Todd... ALso, I'm Robin!!' That instantaneous reveal was insanely stupid to do even if he knew anything about her... the fact that Joker had her under his thumb was beside the point. From the moment he stepped into that tent, it was pretty obvious he had no idea what to do next... 

I mean.. that was always Batman's #1 rule. Protect the identities... Regardless of Tim's failings... (and really the Tim Drake:Appreciation thread is the wrong place to look for unbiased opinions...) He never randomly started throwing his mask off to strangers.

----------


## KrustyKid

Nice! Nightwing 25 is up there in my top three as well! It's a toss up between that/ Robin #156, and Red Robin #12. I can't decide between the three. 

Three votes for NW 25 thus far

----------


## Atlanta96

> Nice! Nightwing 25 is up there in my top three as well! It's a toss up between that/ Robin #156, and Red Robin #12. I can't decide between the three. 
> 
> Three votes for NW 25 thus far


Make it 4 votes. Nightwing 25 is the best issue of that series by a long shot. If I'd read more of Dixon's Robin run I'd have probably listed one of those as my favorite. But out of the first two Dixon trades and the Red Robin stuff, the Nightwing issue is still my favorite Tim Drake appearance.

----------


## Lhynn

It occurred to me that maybe Tim knows a lot more about the colony than he lets on.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It occurred to me that maybe Tim knows a lot more about the colony than he lets on.


What makes you think that?

----------


## Lhynn

Just a general feeling. Especially that they seem to have been using his own tech for months if not years, yet he didnt knew this. Also the magical hack that allowed him to track down their base.
May be nothing tho.

----------


## KrustyKid

Interesting, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

----------


## Aioros22

> One of the most reckless parts of Jason's 'plan' that always boggled my mind... was walking into strange woman #3's tent and essentially saying 'I'm Jason Todd... ALso, I'm Robin!!' That instantaneous reveal was insanely stupid to do even if he knew anything about her... the fact that Joker had her under his thumb was beside the point. From the moment he stepped into that tent, it was pretty obvious he had no idea what to do next... 
> 
> I mean.. that was always Batman's #1 rule. Protect the identities... Regardless of Tim's failings... (and really the Tim Drake:Appreciation thread is the wrong place to look for unbiased opinions...) He never randomly started throwing his mask off to strangers.


She wasn`t "strange woman #3" the moment it became clear she was his mother and told him what happened to her. With Joker`s plot threatening everybody in the region I think getting your mother out of there takes precedence over the chance of finding her dead the next morning. Mind you, it`s an interesting thought and even more interestingly is that Bruce actually does the very same to Jason in his origin story. 

Oh I know it`s not the place, I even said it here. Alas, I don`t think I`m doing a major disservice in talking about Tim`s flaws. Good characters have them.

----------


## Aioros22

> was talking about the decision of teaming up with helena. And you know i was, a better question would be why take what i said out of context?
> 
> Uhm, why do you keep taking things out of context? go reread what i said in every post and show me where i refered to that particular action


Lhynn, when did *I* said anything about Helena? I gave examples of Tim that you _replyed_ to and none of them was about her and Tim. Therefore there`s no point talking about how he did reasearch on her when my examples aren`t about it. I know Tim is smart. What I`m giving you is examples where he_ didn`t_ think throught. 




> The point is that sometimes characters are writen out of character to facilitate a development. In jasons case he didnt really have a character until they gave him the reckless bad boy with a chip on his shoulder one. It defined him


Soo..in Tim`s case it was to build a character while in Jason`s case it was the writer suddently finding Jason`s voice and character? Despite the very foundation of the character - and I mean characterization q.b  being laid out in his very origin and followed throught his run? Comparing Jason`s character bits with Tim`s in their respective origins, I certainly can`t find Tim`s fullfilling, but Jason`s..

You read Jason`s origin and find out on the go his backstory/family story, that he`s resourcefull, energetic, that he steals to survive but doesn`t enjoy it and that despite being from the streets he still goes out of his way to foil a robbery because it was the right thing to do. You learn that he`s been a figther before. You learn he adapts well in situations. You learn he kind of doesn`t trust the police. It`s implied he sees Justice differently and confirmed a story later. 

A Lonely place of Dying is Tim being a Batman fanboy. Nice kid, a smart kid even, that knows everything about everybody, but a fanboy nonetheless. 




> No it wasnt, people hated jason and people killed jason. This wasnt editorial or something about the plot, it was left in the hands of the readers.
> Need i remind you just how popular and loved dick was? and how popular and loved tim was?


There`s no need to try to rewrite history. It`s clear you weren`t reading the line back then or even had the curiosity of doing it as a new reader. Starlin laid out square in an interview that he disliked the Robin concept and wanted it off the book. I`m not saying he wasn`t professional most of the time, I`m saying his end goal was crystal clear. You`re just feeding me Editorial in passing the hot potato for the readers. "Geez don`t cry, it was you, not us". 

Dick was a bigger pillar in the DCU by then. Obviously popular. Tim became popular with writers anting up the contrast between Jason and himself (see how you ate it all up) before he even got a character of his own. There was nothing challenging in the way Tim was written in the early years. Jason wasn`t universally loved or hated. Just like Damian when he showed up, he was taking the spot of someone who was there for decades, he was obviously divisive.

When even Dennis O`Neil lets you know (years later, granted) that he was told by someone in the office that the poll was rigged because they found out someone kept pulling the same number a bunch of calls, this is where you stop feeding the company line. 

In case anyone missed it, Jason was a "bad boy" since he showed up. Starlin simply ant it up in the end of his run to gain footing to his idea. I don`t think it`s a coincidence that once the line got backlash over the decision and decided soon after to bring "Robin" back, Starlin was off the books.




> As i said, i cant account for how much the character has changed or evolved, what i do know is who the character was and what defined him


No offense, you know more about DITF than who the character was. See, I`m not saying anger doesn`t also defines him. 

I`m saying that you telling me that his last single story as Robin was what singlehandly clicked and defined him serves as much purpose as me saying that what defines Tim is being a virgin square who is a Batman fanboy, like his readers. Or a Connor Hawke fanboy. Or a Kon El fanboy. Or even a Jason Todd fanboy. 

But somehow I`m thinking you wouldn`t agree with that. Not fully.

----------


## Lhynn

> Lhynn, when did *I* said anything about Helena? I gave examples of Tim that you _replyed_ to and none of them was about her and Tim. Therefore there`s no point talking about how he did reasearch on her when my examples aren`t about it. I know Tim is smart. What I`m giving you is examples where he_ didn`t_ think throught.


You were talking huntress as an example of him being "reckless" and disobeying batman. I told you, he disobeyed him because he judged that she was ok. figured out her secret identity and what she did for a living.





> Soo..in Tim`s case it was to build a character while in Jason`s case it was the writer suddently finding Jason`s voice and character? Despite the very foundation of the character - and I mean characterization q.b  being laid out in his very origin and followed throught his run? Comparing Jason`s character bits with Tim`s in their respective origins, I certainly can`t find Tim`s fullfilling, but Jason`s..
> You read Jason`s origin and find out on the go his backstory/family story, that he`s resourcefull, energetic, that he steals to survive but doesn`t enjoy it and that despite being from the streets he still goes out of his way to foil a robbery because it was the right thing to do. You learn that he`s been a figther before. You learn he adapts well in situations. You learn he kind of doesn`t trust the police. It`s implied he sees Justice differently and confirmed a story later.


No, i didnt say that. I said that in Tims case he was depicted out of character to serve the story. In Jasons case he was depicted as reckless to serve the story too, with the exception that his actions defined his personality for years to come, taking those very concepts and ideas to the extreme.




> A Lonely place of Dying is Tim being a Batman fanboy. Nice kid, a smart kid even, that knows everything about everybody, but a fanboy nonetheless.


Sure, jason was a survivor, he was independent and had difficulty trusting people, but in the robin costume he was written just as dick before him. It just didnt resonate with people at the time, and it actually made people that liked Grayson instantly dislike Jason.
Tim starting as a fanboy is true, but what i like was that it wasnt an egotistical take on this, it wasnt about wish fulfilment. If jason hadnt gotten out of the picture he would have simply kept watching them and rooting from them. What sprung him into action was genuine care for his heroes. A humble kid that got offered the opportunity to help the people he admired the most. 




> There`s no need to try to rewrite history. It`s clear you weren`t reading the line back then or even had the curiosity of doing it as a new reader. Starlin laid out square in an interview that he disliked the Robin concept and wanted it off the book. I`m not saying he wasn`t professional most of the time, I`m saying his end goal was crystal clear. You`re just feeding me Editorial in passing the hot potato for the readers. "Geez don`t cry, it was you, not us".


Maybe the writer at the time didnt want a robin (he still got offed by the public tho, theres not denying that) but editorial wanted a robin, so they brought back the guy that created jason to create tim.




> Dick was a bigger pillar in the DCU by then. Obviously popular. Tim became popular with writers anting up the contrast between Jason and himself (see how you ate it all up) before he even got a character of his own. There was nothing challenging in the way Tim was written in the early years. Jason wasn`t universally loved or hated. Just like Damian when he showed up, he was taking the spot of someone who was there for decades, he was obviously divisive.


I think people at the time didnt care for a brat with an attitude, editorial or not this was shown when a slight mayority called to kill off a character, to give some context nowadays this would probably only happen if we talked about Duke or Harper.




> When even Dennis O`Neil lets you know (years later, granted) that he was told by someone in the office that the poll was rigged because they found out someone kept pulling the same number a bunch of calls, this is where you stop feeding the company line.


People voting several times in a row in a public poll? thats insane! it never happens in the reaaaal lyfe! These things tend to even themselves out tho and the side that cared the most about the result ended up winning either way. It wasnt a big thing tho, less than 2000 votes total i seem to remember.




> In case anyone missed it, Jason was a "bad boy" since he showed up. Starlin simply ant it up in the end of his run to gain footing to his idea. I don`t think it`s a coincidence that once the line got backlash over the decision and decided soon after to bring "Robin" back, Starlin was off the books.


So whats your point with this?




> I`m saying that you telling me that his last single story as Robin was what singlehandly clicked and defined him serves as much purpose as me saying that what defines Tim is being a virgin square who is a Batman fanboy, like his readers. Or a Connor Hawke fanboy. Or a Kon El fanboy. Or even a Jason Todd fanboy. 
> 
> But somehow I`m thinking you wouldn`t agree with that. Not fully.


I actually agree with Tim being a jason fanboy, which is the reason he was so disapointed and bitter when jason came back as a children with daddy issues. Same with batman, he grew disillusioned when he got to meet him and know how he operated and how he acted. Both of them were fairly interesting developments of the character.

As for Connor and Kon El, not really a faboy, he was simply humble enough to recognize the gap in skill and power. Tim acknowledging his own limits and admiring those that surpassed him was a thing.
He was a virigin, he had values and he respected those values, he believed in celibacy till marriage. Something that sadly has been lost, because it told you a lot about who he was. And you saying that he was a square, thats fair too.
But you see, these things are unique to his character, these things defined how he interacted with the world. You have a humble, honest and old fashioned kid that worked hard for his goals. Reading him is unlike reading anyone else. Its fun because theres a real tension in his actions, and how a lot of them conflict with his beliefs, how he needs to compromise and balance an entire world of things and how the values he holds so dearly both cost him and reward him for it.

Jason can be summed up in a couple words, so can dick and damian, they are cardobard cutouts whose character development is usually predictable. Its the reason their transition to new 52 was made with their personalities mostly intact. Tim on the other hand got butchered, so far as to make people simply quit the character forever.
You can say whatever about jason and the authors not really "finding his voice", but at the very least it doesnt go against everything the character you love to read is.

----------


## josai21

Tim losing his virginity like he did in these comics just truly brought home the loss the N52 brought to the character.

Tim was a character who, when that happened, should have had it as an important story. 

Instead we got sexual assault and even in Tynion we see him sleeping with Steph despite no buildup.

Not to be vulgar, but Lobdell molested this character in more ways than one.

It's a good character study though and could make a brilliant psychology paper on the loss of innocence in relation to character. Tim losing his virginity like he did is pretty symbolic of what was lost in the New 52.

And as good as Rebirth is, I'm not sure it will ever fully recapture who Tim was. Much like losing ones virginity, it's impossible to get it back...

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## SneakyLookingSort

> Tim losing his virginity like he did in these comics just truly brought home the loss the N52 brought to the character.
> 
> Tim was a character who, when that happened, should have had it as an important story. 
> 
> Instead we got sexual assault and even in Tynion we see him sleeping with Steph despite no buildup.


This is one criticism I had for BaRE->Tec Rebirth. Most of what happened between the books is told, not shown. I would have loved to see those relationships grow, including Cass's and Steph's friendship. (People may hate Harper Row but at least we saw her forming a friendship with Cass and it's memorable moment).

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## Vinsanity

> Tim losing his virginity like he did in these comics just truly brought home the loss the N52 brought to the character.
> 
> Tim was a character who, when that happened, should have had it as an important story. 
> 
> Instead we got sexual assault and even in Tynion we see him sleeping with Steph despite no buildup.
> 
> Not to be vulgar, but Lobdell molested this character in more ways than one.
> 
> It's a good character study though and could make a brilliant psychology paper on the loss of innocence in relation to character. Tim losing his virginity like he did is pretty symbolic of what was lost in the New 52.
> ...


Okay I'm just going to put it out there but doing it doesn't mean a loss of innocence you are as a person. Like just because you do it doesn't change you as a person. Superman won't change as a person just because he slept with Lois. 

C'mon people. It's just sex.

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## Lhynn

> Okay I'm just going to put it out there but doing it doesn't mean a loss of innocence you are as a person. Like just because you do it doesn't change you as a person. Superman won't change as a person just because he slept with Lois. 
> 
> C'mon people. It's just sex.


Its not about sex, its about the importance being celibate till marriage had to drake, it was just another element to show how old fashioned he was, one that ran opposite to his hunger for innovation. An element that colored how he dealt with every female interested in him (and there were a lot), especially because he was very interested in them as well.

So yeah, its about the lost dynamic that shaped every relationship he ever had with a girl, it was a strong element of his personality.
I swear, when he found Promise showering or when he almost got raped by the sister of Ras was the writter trying to see what they could get away with. It was really fun to see.

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## godisawesome

> Okay I'm just going to put it out there but doing it doesn't mean a loss of innocence you are as a person. Like just because you do it doesn't change you as a person. Superman won't change as a person just because he slept with Lois. 
> 
> C'mon people. It's just sex.


Eh, I think disgust, and disappointment, with the Teen Titans sequence with Cassie is justified just because of how tone deaf the plotter Scott Lobdell was to both the implications of the story he was laying out (y'know, like how it technically became sexual assault thanks to Trigon) and to the appeal of Tim Drake (more about how he never seemed to get the character at all instead of just how bad the sequence was by itself). Scott Lobdell got to join the ranks of Marv Wolfmann and Devin Grayson in trying to write a kinky romance story that made a Robin a rape victim, and do so with the Robin whose past was most inclined towards at least having humor and some significance in whatever event would end his celibacy.

I mean, this is Tim Drake, the at-times awkward and occasionally neurotic Teen Wonder who could both be impressively honest and brave for his love interests (standing by Steph when she was pregnant, talking Arianna down from her impulsive attempt to seduce him thanks to a jack-ass's near rape attempt), and still have absolutely hilariously perverted moments to remind you he was still a teenage boy (his "I don't think I'm ready for this " reactions to Shiva's unintended double entendre, getting his brain broken by another accidental double entendre from Lynx II saying "Is going to get harder.") 

Having said that, the 'Tec scene with Steph doesn't really aggravate me; as much as it is a missed oppurtunity that probably would have been exploited by his old solos, here it was meant to carry on the rehabilitation of his character. The entire sequence reads like Tynion basically saying, "Oh, would you look at that! Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown appear to be engaging in a relationship built on the foundations of of Pre-Flashpoint characterization! It's as though I wrote this so Tim Drake fans could jump in, completely ignore everything from the New 52, and feel at home. And I did it in a manner far more subtle and well written than any relationship he had in New 52 Teen Titans. How do you like that?"

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## josai21

> Okay I'm just going to put it out there but doing it doesn't mean a loss of innocence you are as a person. Like just because you do it doesn't change you as a person. Superman won't change as a person just because he slept with Lois. 
> 
> C'mon people. It's just sex.


Pretty much what the two above have stated. Sexual purity was important to Tim.  It was just thrown out the window for no reason and completely ignored a very important part of the character.

Not saying that having sex makes you a bad person, not my intention; but to many people sex is a very important and sacred thing. Most people I know would'nt just sleep with someone on the first date but would rather need to trust and develop a relationship with someone before trusting them in that way.

Tim's character was one of these. 

I'm find with him losing his virginity. However it should have been a beautiful and romantic moment for his character. 

Lobdell cheapened it.

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## Atlanta96

> Pretty much what the two above have stated. Sexual purity was important to Tim.  It was just thrown out the window for no reason and completely ignored a very important part of the character.
> 
> Not saying that having sex makes you a bad person, not my intention; but to many people sex is a very important and sacred thing. Most people I know would'nt just sleep with someone on the first date but would rather need to trust and develop a relationship with someone before trusting them in that way.
> 
> Tim's character was one of these. 
> 
> I'm find with him losing his virginity. However it should have been a beautiful and romantic moment for his character. 
> 
> Lobdell cheapened it.


Just another reason New 52 Teen Titans should be retconned from existence. If his scene with Steph from 'Tec #935 ends up being his first time making love, I'd be fine with that. It's still a waste of potential since there was no buildup, but it would be a massive improvement over what Lobdell did.

I am glad he's not a virgin anymore, it's something Tim haters could have used to mock him. Doesn't change the fact that it was handled horribly though.

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## Lhynn

Tim haters can go screw themselves tbh, havent met one capable of intelligent thought yet.

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## Aahz

> Its not about sex, its about the importance being celibate till marriage had to drake, it was just another element to show how old fashioned he was,


I'm pretty sure that he never said that "celibate till marriage" was important for him.

And the topic of sex was after iirc Ariana never discussed with any of his girl friends on panel.

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## Lhynn

> I'm pretty sure that he never said that "celibate till marriage" was important for him.


And youd be right, he was mostly just waiting for the right time with the right girl, probably until after he was an adult at least.




> And the topic of sex was after iirc Ariana never discussed with any of his girl friends on panel.


There were a couple times when steph hinted at wanting to do it but him wanting to wait. It wasnt a big deal because the emphasis was on crime fighting, so it wasnt really addressed, like many other things.

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## Atlanta96

> Tim haters can go screw themselves tbh, havent met one capable of intelligent thought yet.


To be fair if the only Tim I knew was the New 52 version, I'd hate him too.

But most criticisms of his Pre-Flashpoint version are just "he's boring" or "he's irrelevant". Lame.

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## KrustyKid

On the topic of Tim losing his virginity. Whose to say he didn't lose it before Cassie? As far as I know it was never stated that he was still a virgin when the New-52 started. And given how Tim acted afterwards I got the vibe that wasn't necessarily his first time, only his first hinted to on panel. That still doesn't change the lousiness of the Trigon mind control situation.

But as others have already said, I would have preferred some kind of buildup for Tim swiping his V-card, be it Pre-52 or current Tim. Only because the situation of him putting out was a point of emphasis for his character for a long run. What's done is done, let's hope the future serves him well.

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## oasis1313

Aren't all these characters jailbait?

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## Vinsanity

> Pretty much what the two above have stated. Sexual purity was important to Tim.  It was just thrown out the window for no reason and completely ignored a very important part of the character.
> 
> Not saying that having sex makes you a bad person, not my intention; but to many people sex is a very important and sacred thing. Most people I know would'nt just sleep with someone on the first date but would rather need to trust and develop a relationship with someone before trusting them in that way.
> 
> Tim's character was one of these. 
> 
> I'm find with him losing his virginity. However it should have been a beautiful and romantic moment for his character. 
> 
> Lobdell cheapened it.


Eh. It's just sex. It's no big deal. I never got the whole big idea of losing your virginity and why it is so important to a comic book character. I mean it doesn't shape the way he is. No one explains Tim Drake as 'Chaste' when they describe him. They use cautious, intelligent. Stuff like that. 

So he slept with Cassie a lot of times I gather from their interactions in TT. Heck I wouldn't be surprised pre-flashpoint if that happened. Steph the same. I mean it really doesn't matter. 

To me it's just sex. You do it, bingo bango. Like it's no big deal that it matters if someone has their virginity or not. But someone shouldn't described or written because of that. It makes no sense for me why people are like that regarding Tim. 

I really don't get it. I get that you guys are trying to explain it to me but it's just sex.

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## Lhynn

> It's just sex.


If it were any other character id agree. But it was a part of his characterization since the start. But this has shaped almost every relationship he ever had with a female pre 52.

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## Vinsanity

> If it were any other character id agree. But it was a part of his characterization since the start. But this has shaped almost every relationship he ever had with a female pre 52.


I've read through a lot of Tim Drake. Never have I got that it was part of his characterization. To me not having sex or having sex is not a characterization. It shouldn't be. If you do it, you do it. If you don't, you don't. It doesn't change the way you are.

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## josai21

> I've read through a lot of Tim Drake. Never have I got that it was part of his characterization. To me not having sex or having sex is not a characterization. It shouldn't be. If you do it, you do it. If you don't, you don't. It doesn't change the way you are.


And yet your values about sex do determine a huge part of who you are as a person. 

No one is saying having sex or not fundamentally changes you, but values are something that does define a person.

I remember one of the first comics I ever read was Tim turning down Rose Wilson. I -respected- that about the character. 

Not having sex takes a far greater degree of discipline than having it.

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## Jadeb

It's also unusual for a character to abstain these days. But the act itself is far less important than how Tim's decision-making reflects and defines his character. He's not Grayson. Traditionally he was thoughtful and shy and somewhat awkward around girls, and that was a major character point. There should have been a culmination of that storyline. Even if it's not a big deal to readers, it would have been a big deal to Tim. 

Major missed opportunity, IMO.

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## Aahz

> It's also unusual for a character to abstain these days. But the act itself is far less important than how Tim's decision-making reflects and defines his character. He's not Grayson. Traditionally he was thoughtful and shy and somewhat awkward around girls, and that was a major character point.


Dick didn't act much different when he was Robin (at least in the original comics).

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## Jadeb

> Dick didn't act much different when he was Robin (at least in the original comics).


Yeah, but he stopped being Robin back in the early '80s. I don't know how they handled it then, but comics didn't deal with the topic as frankly as they do now. If awkwardness around girls was a major character trait for Dick, and if there had been multiple storylines about that (as there were for Tim), I'd say it was a missed opportunity for Dick as well. But that's no excuse for DC botching up Tim's character arc in a big way.

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## Vinsanity

> *And yet your values about sex do determine a huge part of who you are as a person*. 
> 
> No one is saying having sex or not fundamentally changes you, but values are something that does define a person.
> 
> I remember one of the first comics I ever read was Tim turning down Rose Wilson. I -respected- that about the character. 
> 
> Not having sex takes a far greater degree of discipline than having it.


You mean not having a sex with a drunk character? That's doing the right thing. 

Also the bold part I disagree but I'm not going to get into that otherwise we're in for a long disagreement. 

To summerise. I don't see the big deal why Tim has to be connected to being a virgin. It's not a characteristic or a personality trait.

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## Lhynn

> You mean not having a sex with a drunk character? That's doing the right thing.


Didnt seem particularly drunk to me. Seemed more like her just being her and taking what she wants.




> Also the bold part I disagree but I'm not going to get into that otherwise we're in for a long disagreement.


Thats nonsense, the choices we make in life shape us into who we are, denying this is pure ignorance.




> To summerise. I don't see the big deal why Tim has to be connected to being a virgin. It's not a characteristic or a personality trait.


Its both actually, it shows hes a person that hold old values in high esteem, it shows that its a way to cope with situations he doesnt quite know how to handle (which is amusing considering how often he seems to know what to do when crime fighting), it shows that hes responsible, it shows moral fiber and strength of character, and it makes for some damn fine comedy.

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## Vinsanity

I've said my piece but you're kind of insulating that people who have sex don't have a moral fiber which is really not a nice thing to say. Never have I stated that being a virgin is a bad thing. I've said why I don't think it is a big deal if Tim does it or not. That's it. 

Geez

Also FYI: Tim asked "Have you been drinking?"
Rose whispers "Maybe"

So make what ever of that you want. Because I guess you have more moral fiber.

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## Lhynn

> I've said my piece but you're kind of insulating that people who have sex don't have a moral fiber which is really not a nice thing to say.


Nope, first im not a nice guy when it comes to argument. Second, moral fiber and strength of character comes from sticking to what you believe in, doesnt have to do particularly with sex.




> Never have I stated that being a virgin is a bad thing.


No one here has accused you of this, or vice versa.




> I've said why I don't think it is a big deal if Tim does it or not. That's it.


Trust me, it is. Its not a complete deal breaker for me, but i wasnt too happy when it happened, considering a few years back i was laughing my ass off with the exchanges he had with shiva, steph, lynx II, etc.




> Also FYI: Tim asked "Have you been drinking?"
> Rose whispers "Maybe"


I know, got the issue. Also ive been drunk before, and weve seen plenty of drunks in comics, she was not. She was just being Rose.




> So make what ever of that you want. Because I guess you have more moral fiber.


Why do you keep trying to make the argument into something its not? Does that work on other circles?

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## KrustyKid

So how is everyone liking the Tim x General connection so far? I for one am enjoying the back and forth between the two.

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## Lhynn

> So how is everyone liking the Tim x General connection so far? I for one am enjoying the back and forth between the two.


Good stuff, but because its so secondary it lacks a lot of weight, so feels mostly like setting up his new gallery before a solo has been announced.

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## KrustyKid

> Good stuff, but because its so secondary it lacks a lot of weight, so feels mostly like setting up his new gallery before a solo has been announced.


Or perhaps setting up for an arch later down the line centered on Tim. Either way I'm liking the dynamic between the two.

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## Lhynn

> Or perhaps setting up for an arch later down the line centered on Tim. Either way I'm liking the dynamic between the two.


Not sure id like to see Tim against the general during an entire arc.

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## KrustyKid

> Not sure id like to see Tim against the general during an entire arc.


It would involve a lot of button spamming, lol. I don't think he'd be the main focus of a Tim centric arc, just part of it.

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## josai21

I feel like the biggest weakness of Tim is this series is the lack of internal monologue.

Without the monologue, a lot of Tims stunts feel pulled out of his butt. 

I can see why some call Tim a walking plot device though disagree.

As a Tim fan, I can see his internal monologue. The hesitancy, the humility, and yet tinged with a subtle arrogance that "this is gonna work."

People unfamiliar with Tim won't.

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## Lhynn

> I feel like the biggest weakness of Tim is this series is the lack of internal monologue.
> 
> Without the monologue, a lot of Tims stunts feel pulled out of his butt. 
> 
> I can see why some call Tim a walking plot device though disagree.
> 
> As a Tim fan, I can see his internal monologue. The hesitancy, the humility, and yet tinged with a subtle arrogance that "this is gonna work."
> 
> People unfamiliar with Tim won't.


Yeah, but it doesnt work when he tells it to the world. All shows with a single protagonist nowadays have internal monologues to avoid all this.

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## The Whovian

I'm LOVING Tim in 'Tec. Best he's been since before New 52. It's like he's the old Tim again. And everything is right in the world.  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

> I'm LOVING Tim in 'Tec. Best he's been since before New 52. It's like he's the old Tim again. And everything is right in the world.


I am loving him in Tec too, but I would argue we saw this smart but still loyal and sweet Tim in the first Batman Eternal series, and a few glimpses in the second!  :Smile:

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## KrustyKid

> I am loving him in Tec too, but I would argue we saw this smart but still loyal and sweet Tim in the first Batman Eternal series, and a few glimpses in the second!


Yes, there was definitely good moments for him throughout the Eternals.

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## The Whovian

> I am loving him in Tec too, but I would argue we saw this smart but still loyal and sweet Tim in the first Batman Eternal series, and a few glimpses in the second!


I agree, but 'Tec is taking him to a whole new level of goodness  :Smile:

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## KrustyKid

A ride which I too am enjoying. Not just Tim, but the entire cast.

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## Atlanta96

I love Tim in 'Tec too, and the series is making his character look great to new readers. But I do think there's still a bit of New 52 Tim left in him, especially his arrogance. It's not insufferable but it's there.

I like to think that Tynion is slowly easing him back to his Pre-Flashpoint self, and his first step is making New 52 Tim likable. He could be 100% back to his old self soon.

Tim should stay in 'Tec for a while, but get his own solo series as well. Then they should bring back Young Justice and make Tim the leader, which will coincide with his final 'Tec arc and will be his graduation from Batmans training.

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## KrustyKid

> I love Tim in 'Tec too, and the series is making his character look great to new readers. But I do think there's still a bit of New 52 Tim left in him, especially his arrogance. It's not insufferable but it's there.
> 
> I like to think that Tynion is slowly easing him back to his Pre-Flashpoint self, and his first step is making New 52 Tim likable. He could be 100% back to his old self soon.
> 
> Tim should stay in 'Tec for a while, but get his own solo series as well. Then they should bring back Young Justice and make Tim the leader, which will coincide with his final 'Tec arc and will be his graduation from Batmans training.


I could see something like this happening over time. Probably after a two year mark at the earliest.

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## KrustyKid

What's everyone's favorite animated version of Tim?

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## Darkspellmaster

Hands down BTAS, followed by YJ, but I always thought they didn't give him enough screen time in season two. Also wasn't thrilled with the whole Cassie and him as couple, but that's just me.

We haven't gotten him in any new movies yet have we? I'd like to see him and Damian in the new features, if they'd do it.

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## byrd156

> Hands down BTAS, followed by YJ, but I always thought they didn't give him enough screen time in season two. Also wasn't thrilled with the whole Cassie and him as couple, but that's just me.
> 
> We haven't gotten him in any new movies yet have we? I'd like to see him and Damian in the new features, if they'd do it.


If we got season 3 it would be YJ hands down. I loved the portrayal but we didn't get enough.

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## phantom1592

Interestingly, I think the animated series' were one of the first times Tim started to get screwed over a bit... BTAS made him too young and kiddie... Honestly, I always saw Dick as the best Tim in BTAS. He was in his teens, he had the spikey hair, He had the black/yellow caped Tim costume... 

And that's been a constant for some time. Dick has inherited the long pants/Black-yellow cape for all his appearances in BTAS, Teen Titans, Teen Titans go, YJ, while loosing a lot of his early Robin 'light heartedness' and gain a lot of Tim's 'seriousness'.  It gets to the point in these shows that until he turns into nightwing... we're not sure if they're trying to portray Dick or Tim... and with the popularity of John's Teen Titans books at the time, It was pretty easy to see them going with Tim for their Robin...

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## KrustyKid

> If we got season 3 it would be YJ hands down. I loved the portrayal but we didn't get enough.


Agreed, I wish we could have gotten more of YJ Tim.

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## Atlanta96

I didn't mind BTAS Tim, even if it wasn't really accurate to the source material. YJ had his character down pretty well, but he needed more screen time. Aside from bringing back Wally, more focus on Tim is my biggest reason for wanting a 3rd season.

What do you think is our best chance of seeing Tim in other media? Injustice 2, the DCEU, the animated films, Justice League Action? He has to turn up somewhere.

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## Aahz

> I didn't mind BTAS Tim, even if it wasn't really accurate to the source material.


BTAS Tim was apart from the name Jason.

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## KrustyKid

That seems to be the case with the majority of animated Robin's, a mixture of each of the boys.

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## Aahz

> That seems to be the case with the majority of animated Robin's, a mixture of each of the boys.


The boys are actually all quite similar to beginn with.

In case of the DCAU tim the writers even said that was a combination of Jason and Tim, nut at least imo he to far more from Jason than from Tim. The only unique traits of Tim he had were the name and being a Batman fanboy.

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## SamP7403

is this in batman eternal _vol 2_ or _issue 2_?

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## KrustyKid

> The boys are actually all quite similar to beginn with.
> 
> In case of the DCAU tim the writers even said that was a combination of Jason and Tim, nut at least imo he to far more from Jason than from Tim. The only unique traits of Tim he had were the name and being a Batman fanboy.


I agree pretty much with this. In the same way TT Robin seemed to share more traits with Drake than Grayson. But still a mixture none the less.

----------


## Alycat

I dunno about that. I see people say TT Robin was more Drake  than Dick but outside of the outfit and maybe fighting style he really wasn't. It's like people skip over how Dick use to be super serious,moody, and batman like when he was on teams while Tim didn't act like that till much later.

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Being serious and moody was practically what Dick Grayson's character was from 1,969 to 1,996 especially during NTT. It is not until his 1st solo series does him not being a planner and being less serious come into play.

----------


## Lhynn

> Being serious and moody was practically what Dick Grayson's character was from 1,969 to 1,996 especially during NTT. It is not until his 1st solo series does him not being a planner and being less serious come into play.


Well, TT robin was very good with computers and used a staff. As for personality, i guess it could have been either of them. All we know for sure is that Tim stuck with the responsability shtick while dick dropped it completely.

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## Aahz

> Being serious and moody was practically what Dick Grayson's character was from 1,969 to 1,996 especially during NTT. It is not until his 1st solo series does him not being a planner and being less serious come into play.


The most batman like version of Dick was iirc during his time with the Outsiders. And he hasn't been light-hearted and funny as he is portrait often today since roughly the silver age. Even during the first run of Teen titans Dick was usually the most serious guy on the team and was portrait as the smart one.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> The most batman like version of Dick was iirc during his time with the Outsiders. And he hasn't been light-hearted and funny as he is portrait often today since roughly the silver age. Even during the first run of Teen titans Dick was usually the most serious guy on the team and was portrait as the smart one.


That was to counter Walley as the jokester, Roy as the "playboy" (if I recall) and Gar as the "Shy one" of the male group. The Vic and Gar were the cool guy and the hyper one for a long while as I recall. Haven't read enough of the second run of TT or the first run with the sidekicks. 

What's interesting is if we're going to see them let out tim's charms later.

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## KrustyKid

Any guesses for what Tim will attempt to do against the drones next issue?

----------


## The Whovian

> Any guesses for what Tim will attempt to do against the drones next issue?


Use his fighting skills to avoid, destroy and annihilate them all.

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## KrustyKid

> Use his fighting skills to avoid, destroy and annihilate them all.


I was thinking maybe he'll maneuver around to try and have the drones shoot each other down.

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## Atlanta96

Okay, why all the hate for Tim? I don't think he had so many haters Pre-Flashpoint, so it must be because of the New 52. I'm not sure Kon El and Bart Allen would receive this much hate if they were in Rebirth books, so I think people are placing too much blame on Tim for Teen Titans sucking throughout New 52. Because he was the leader of the team, I guess. I get that people just don't like certain characters, but the level of dislike some fans have for Tim really confuses me. But I do blame the TT writers for it, especially Lobdell.

----------


## millernumber1

I don't quite get it either. Tim isn't a favorite character of mine, but I like him a lot, and I think he had some really good stories in the n52 - Batman Eternal, for one, and his plotline with Jason in Batman and Robin Eternal was really solid as well.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't quite get it either. Tim isn't a favorite character of mine, but I like him a lot, and I think he had some really good stories in the n52 - Batman Eternal, for one, and his plotline with Jason in Batman and Robin Eternal was really solid as well.


The major complaints are
He's dull and bland
He's an over-powered Mary Sue
He's an arrogant screw-up

Blandness is subjective, but the other 2 things didn't apply at all until the New 52. Yeah he was pretty damn brilliant by the time his Red Robin series wrapped up, but they had built him up to that point with years of stories. The character was popular, there was no reason not to give him that level of intelligence. Especially since he had earned it.

Then they use his awful New 52 character as an excuse to call him obsolete and useless. Instead of wanting him to be fixed. And if he's going to die or take a break from crime fighting in Tec, a little bit of over-powered writing is understandable. Especially since he's coming off of the awful Teen Titans stuff.

----------


## KrustyKid

All the Robin boys have their sheer number of haters. Dick certainly with the least. Damian and Jason are pretty up there with Drake, they're just not nearly as vocal. At least not on this forum. I love all the Robin boys, so there is no dislike for any of them on my end.

----------


## millernumber1

> The major complaints are
> He's dull and bland
> He's an over-powered Mary Sue
> He's an arrogant screw-up
> 
> Blandness is subjective, but the other 2 things didn't apply at all until the New 52. Yeah he was pretty damn brilliant by the time his Red Robin series wrapped up, but they had built him up to that point with years of stories. The character was popular, there was no reason not to give him that level of intelligence. Especially since he had earned it.
> 
> Then they use his awful New 52 character as an excuse to call him obsolete and useless. Instead of wanting him to be fixed. And if he's going to die or take a break from crime fighting in Tec, a little bit of over-powered writing is understandable. Especially since he's coming off of the awful Teen Titans stuff.


I mean, I get the arrogant, but having not read Teen Titans, I don't see him screwing up that much. The over-powered thing is only in effect if you don't enjoy what he's doing, I think. I personally think the stories are giving him enough limitations that seeing his wild imaginations made reality is just fun.

Dull and bland...sure, when Tomasi writes him.  :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

I know a lot people who's only exposure to Tim is the Nu52 Teen Titans and I honestly can't blame them for hating him there. That's why I was hoping for improvement from Tynion, which there is but only in that he doesn't come across as super arrogant and annoying anymore. It's still surface level improvement , which is why him dying or retiring now is dumb. At least get us to care about him first.

----------


## berserkerclaw

I hope he takes down the droneswith a mix of tech savy and martial arts. Red Robin needs to fight more this arc lol. I also want him to realize that retiring wont work not for long anyway. Plus i want him to stay in the book

----------


## Atlanta96

> I know a lot people who's only exposure to Tim is the Nu52 Teen Titans and I honestly can't blame them for hating him there. That's why I was hoping for improvement from Tynion, which there is but only in that he doesn't come across as super arrogant and annoying anymore. It's still surface level improvement , which is why him dying or retiring now is dumb. At least get us to care about him first.


Yeah if someone's only exposure to Tim is the New 52, I don't blame them either. But the fact that all Tim fans hate 52 Tim as much as they do proves that it's not a good portrayal of the character. And Tim is going to take down those drones next issue using tactics and strategy, Pre-Flashpoint style. We'll get the old character back eventually, just got to be patient. Who knows where his character is headed after this arc.

----------


## InfamousBG

I have always loved Tim. He has had some great times. Pre-Flashpoint I grew up with tim as Robin. He has always been a strong Robin. If they kill him off I will be very upset.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Yeah if someone's only exposure to Tim is the New 52, I don't blame them either. But the fact that all Tim fans hate 52 Tim as much as they do proves that it's not a good portrayal of the character. And Tim is going to take down those drones next issue using tactics and strategy, Pre-Flashpoint style. We'll get the old character back eventually, just got to be patient. Who knows where his character is headed after this arc.


Exactly the issue. Rather then build tim up proper they wanted a more "Marvel-esque" version of Tim and that doesn't work now. I'm crossing my fingers on the tactics and strategy, it'll be fun to watch as he takes them on, maybe talk about it a bit in his head as he's trying to figure things out. How much you want to bet Ulysses is going to do something nasty though, even if Tim wins.

----------


## Lhynn

Good final issue of the teen titans. If the whole thing had been like the last issue Tim wouldnt be in this mess.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Good final issue of the teen titans. If the whole thing had been like the last issue Tim wouldnt be in this mess.


The last few issues haven't been too bad. I enjoyed this one as well. But this wasn't the last issue, there is one to go.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Good final issue of the teen titans. If the whole thing had been like the last issue Tim wouldnt be in this mess.


Isn't there a couple more left?

----------


## KrustyKid

One more to go

----------


## Lhynn

Oh? too bad. It should have ended here.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Oh? too bad. It should have ended here.


It should have ended 5 years ago.

----------


## KrustyKid

Of all current and former Robins which relationship between the group do you find the most interesting? What would you like to see more of? 

Damian x Steph

Dick x Tim

Tim x Damian

Jason x Dick

?

What are your thoughts?

----------


## Alycat

> Of all current and former Robins which relationship between the group do you find the most interesting? What would you like to see more of? 
> 
> Damian x Steph
> 
> Dick x Tim
> 
> Tim x Damian
> 
> Jason x Dick
> ...


Every single one. They should really fix current Tim  and Dick though. Plus Jason and Dick has very little material. We need more of that one.

----------


## The Whovian

> Of all current and former Robins which relationship between the group do you find the most interesting? What would you like to see more of? 
> 
> Damian x Steph
> 
> Dick x Tim
> 
> Tim x Damian
> 
> Jason x Dick
> ...


The one that's not up there, Tim and Steph

----------


## KrustyKid

> The one that's not up there, Tim and Steph


Yea, the list was just there for examples. I think there are a lot of combinations we haven't seen much of. Jason x Steph being one of them

----------


## brucekent12

Jason and Steph wouldn't interest me, Dick and Tim for the win, though Tim and Steph would be a close second!

----------


## Aahz

> Of all current and former Robins which relationship between the group do you find the most interesting? What would you like to see more of? 
> 
> Damian x Steph
> 
> Dick x Tim
> 
> Tim x Damian
> 
> Jason x Dick
> ...



Jason with everbody except Tim, especially Dick and Barbara (to explore his time as Robin) and Damian (to explore their connection with the league and Talia)

Dick and Tim (hardly happened since the reboot)

Damian and Barbara (have they aver interacted)

Dick with Steph and Cass (even pre flashpoint they hardly interacted)

----------


## Lhynn

Tim x Damian is always fun.

Pre 52 jason x Tim was always fun.

Dick and Tim shouldnt work together, but they should meet more often. Outside of work their dynamic is great.

Dick x Jason is something we need more too.

----------


## oasis1313

I'd be cool with all four of them having a team book and going on their own adventures.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Of all current and former Robins which relationship between the group do you find the most interesting? What would you like to see more of? 
> 
> Damian x Steph
> 
> Dick x Tim
> 
> Tim x Damian
> 
> Jason x Dick
> ...


I had hoped the We Are Robin book would have been co-opted into a Robin brothers book (with Steph, Babs and others occasionally wandering in.)  But a book focusing on the relationship between the guys would have been interesting.

----------


## Atlanta96

The Bat-Boys relationships definitely need the most exploration now that the New 52 is over. Over the past 5 years we've had a mildly entertaining bro-mance with Tim and Jason, and implications of brotherly bonds between the rest of the guys that it would have been nice to actually see. The closest we got was that one issue of Grayson, which still got on my nerves by implying that Dick was equally close to both Tim and Jason. No he's not.

Dick hanging out with Damian is a good start, but seeing him and Tim bonding is more important.

----------


## Aahz

> The Bat-Boys relationships definitely need the most exploration now that the New 52 is over. Over the past 5 years we've had a mildly entertaining bro-mance with Tim and Jason, and implications of brotherly bonds between the rest of the guys that it would have been nice to actually see.


With Robin War and B&RE they had imo allready two perfect opportunities for this, and they wasted both.




> The closest we got was that one issue of Grayson, which still got on my nerves by implying that Dick was equally close to both Tim and Jason. No he's not.


That issue felt for me also out of character. 
Jason and Dick weren't close, and at this point there was really no reason why Jason should expect that the Batfamily should fully trust him. His reaction didn't made much sense.
That Tim, who is close to Dick, was so rational about it was also kind of strange.
And Damians reaction was cute, but felt also not really Damian like.

----------


## Atlanta96

> With Robin War and B&RE they had imo allready two perfect opportunities for this, and they wasted both.
> 
> That issue felt for me also out of character. 
> Jason and Dick weren't close, and at this point there was really no reason why Jason should expect that the Batfamily should fully trust him. His reaction didn't made much sense.
> That Tim, who is close to Dick, was so rational about it was also kind of strange.
> And Damians reaction was cute, but felt also not really Damian like.


It was really awkward since Morrisons Batman & Robin run is still canon. The one where Jason antagonized both Dick and Damian. And somehow, he's just as much a brother to Dick as Tim. I think King's intentions were good, but he made some mistakes with his execution.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I never liked Jason and Dick viewing each other as brothers but two people who had vastly different experiences as Robin who just like with Bruce find some common ground. I know there are issues with what happened and what did not so personally I just go by what I can easily search through the internet of comic store to find a sensible path from Detective Comics 27 until now so with Jason and Dick, one was trying to grow up after being Robin for 10+ years and forge a path for himself however without the ability to just disappear for years like Bruce and the other coming to take on the Mantle that has gained such notoriety and despite its naysayers continues to be one of DC most valuable brands and making his own decisions. They were never really close when he was there because both were on their own path pre Joker Death and were at not close when he came back. Its not until the New 52 were all this Brothers come from with Nightwing wearing red and Jason wearing the Bat symbol.

----------


## Aioros22

The details of what is canon or not is what hits the hardest. Dick and Damian were Batman and Robin, but the most horrible take on Jason and co (we all know which ones I`m talking about) were either erased or jumped upon. Morrison`s take on Jason in the reboot was in line with RATHO and co. 

_That_ being said, him and Dick are really not that close. Either because Jason is usually snarky and because Dick was keeping his own distance to Starfire related matters. 

I don`t think Jason antagonized Damian, more like Damian feels antagonized by him. We`ve seen him trying to bond somewhat in both RATHO and Morrison`s B&R (as well Tomasis) but they just naturally clash with each other because neither of them have a passive personality.

----------


## Aioros22

> I never liked Jason and Dick viewing each other as brothers but two people who had vastly different experiences as Robin who just like with Bruce find some common ground.


Even back then, they didn`t become as close mainly because of just differences in life (as you point out), not because of some major issue in between. Dick was in the transition period and was estranged with Bruce while Jason was taking his place. It was a bit awkward: they didn`t dislike each other the least and were friendly and respectfull but writers never made them that close due to the nature of the respective titles. 

It was growing pains 101.

----------


## Aahz

> It was really awkward since Morrisons Batman & Robin run is still canon. The one where Jason antagonized both Dick and Damian.


I'm not sure if that and Battle for the Cowl are really still 100% canon. It is was never referenced and and not really in line with the new 52 take on Jason.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm not sure if that and Battle for the Cowl are really still 100% canon. It is was never referenced and and not really in line with the new 52 take on Jason.


Whether or not it was canon, it sucked, so I ignore it no matter what  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm not sure if that and Battle for the Cowl are really still 100% canon. It is was never referenced and and not really in line with the new 52 take on Jason.


Didn't Jason physically assault both Dick and Damian during the Morrison run? Could have been an impersonator but they were attacked by a Red Hood at one point, so I assume it was Jason.

----------


## Alycat

I admit it sucked that Tim and Jason were presented on the same playing field in Grayson 12 ( which I loved), but I can see why it was done. Dick and Tims relationship seems almost nonexistent from the way it was presented up to that point. The lack of reaction from anyone about Dicks death and the poor relationship dynamics put King in a tight place. That's one of the huge negatives of the Jason/Tim and Dick/ Damian dynamics they settled with. Just 20 years of Tim and Dickpushed to the side due to poor writing and editorial decisions.

I actually didn't find Jason's reaction off at all though. He's mad that someone who should better than that pulled such a big lie. Especially with the type of lie it was. Dick and Jason have such an awkward relationship though. Kinda reminds me of people who didn't know they were related to each other when they were younger or had a bad relationship trying to start one up later in life. I wouldn't mind if it got presented that way. Would make an interesting dynamic in the group.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

So many relationships need to be covered for Tim, seriously. Tim and Damian had it rough pre 52 as I recall, though it would be nice to see Damian being nicer to Tim (still want him to call him Drake over Tim or Timothy), Dick and Tim also need some time as I always saw them as a close brotherly relationship. Tim and Jason could be interesting if there was the right story for it, maybe have them both using their way of being a detective to solve a case? Tim and Cassandra working together would be cool too, and we need more of him and Kate as well. I would love to see some Tim and Basil -how old is Basil supposed to be now? In his twenties right? Or am I way off there? Also Tim and Helena (either version) and Tim and Babs and Dinah would be cool to see. Maybe have Tim work with Harper and Duke some too? 

Damian x Steph and Tim is one I really want to see happen to see how that dynamic is affected because she brought out a lot of good in Damian and Tim never fully trusted him the same way Steph did. 

I'd also just like to see a story with Tim and Bruce doing some work together and having fun in a way. It would be really nice to see Bruce smile again.

----------


## Aahz

> Didn't Jason physically assault both Dick and Damian during the Morrison run? Could have been an impersonator but they were attacked by a Red Hood at one point, so I assume it was Jason.


Morrisons run is pre flashpoint, not everything what happened in it has to be canon.

----------


## Aioros22

> I admit it sucked that Tim and Jason were presented on the same playing field in Grayson 12 ( which I loved), but I can see why it was done. Dick and Tims relationship seems almost nonexistent from the way it was presented up to that point. The lack of reaction from anyone about Dicks death and the poor relationship dynamics put King in a tight place. That's one of the huge negatives of the Jason/Tim and Dick/ Damian dynamics they settled with. Just 20 years of Tim and Dickpushed to the side due to poor writing and editorial decisions.
> 
> I actually didn't find Jason's reaction off at all though. He's mad that someone who should better than that pulled such a big lie. Especially with the type of lie it was. Dick and Jason have such an awkward relationship though. Kinda reminds me of people who didn't know they were related to each other when they were younger or had a bad relationship trying to start one up later in life. I wouldn't mind if it got presented that way. Would make an interesting dynamic in the group.


I didn`t saw it as that occ either. Jason will almost likely have a natural tendency to revolt against holier than thou antics that in the end end up doing questionable things anyhow. Bruce is a major dogma of this kind of behaviour and that a little part of why they tend to clash.

----------


## Aahz

> I actually didn't find Jason's reaction off at all though. He's mad that someone who should better than that pulled such a big lie. Especially with the type of lie it was.


Thats he pissed makes sense, but he reacted like he was hurt by it, and his reaction was far more emotional than of the other characters, and that doesn't make sense for me, since everybody else is far closer to Dick than Jason. At least imo Jason doesn't even have much respect for Dick.
Jason just making snarky/insulting comment about it would imo be more in character.

----------


## Alycat

> Thats he pissed makes sense, but he reacted like he was hurt by it, and his reaction was far more emotional than of the other characters, and that doesn't make sense for me, since everybody else is far closer to Dick than Jason. At least imo Jason doesn't even have much respect for Dick.
> Jason just making snarky/insulting comment about it would imo be more in character.


See I think that Jason does respect and care about Dick in his own way. About all of them really in a family like way and being snarky is just a way to cover that up. Once again I don't understand why DC won't give us a bat family book with all 4 Robins in it to better explore these relationships. Could be so good.

----------


## Aioros22

They may not be close, but where it is said the don`t respect each other? RATHO#1/vol1 tends to disagree a wee bit with that on the go.

Btw, I`d enjoy some new interactions with Tim and Huntress. Anything that makes papa Bat cringe is good.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> See I think that Jason does respect and care about Dick in his own way. About all of them really in a family like way and being snarky is just a way to cover that up. Once again I don't understand why DC won't give us a bat family book with all 4 Robins in it to better explore these relationships. Could be so good.


Because the editorial doesn't think it would sell? I agree very much on this. Using a book like that to explore the relationships of not only the Robins but also other members of the batfamily would be fun. Do a Brave and the bold style thing, pair off the different members and see what you get.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Because the editorial doesn't think it would sell? I agree very much on this. Using a book like that to explore the relationships of not only the Robins but also other members of the batfamily would be fun. Do a Brave and the bold style thing, pair off the different members and see what you get.


I would definitely read something like that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thats he pissed makes sense, but he reacted like he was hurt by it, and his reaction was far more emotional than of the other characters, and that doesn't make sense for me, since everybody else is far closer to Dick than Jason. At least imo Jason doesn't even have much respect for Dick.
> Jason just making snarky/insulting comment about it would imo be more in character.


I think he does have respect for Dick and because of that he expects Dick to act a certain way. Jason's more emotional reaction is likely because he can't fathom that Dick of all people would outright lie about his death, especially with being aware of how the family was likely to react to it and given how recent Damian's own death and resurrection had been. On some level he might have even been hurt that he wasn't trusted to know about this deception either by Dick or Bruce. That would be his trust issues again. Also on a certain level he might have even seen this as a slap in the face to his own death. 




> See I think that Jason does respect and care about Dick in his own way. About all of them really in a family like way and being snarky is just a way to cover that up. Once again I don't understand why DC won't give us a bat family book with all 4 Robins in it to better explore these relationships. Could be so good.


I'd read the heck out of a Robins book. I'd really like to see their relationships explored a bit somewhere and a weekly is not a really good place for that IMO.




> Because the editorial doesn't think it would sell?


I think editorial would be wrong in that assumption myself. I think it would sell and I think that's what they are attempting to do over in 'Tec to some degree. I'd much rather have a Robin-centric book though.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think he does have respect for Dick and because of that he expects Dick to act a certain way. Jason's more emotional reaction is likely because he can't fathom that Dick of all people would outright lie about his death, especially with being aware of how the family was likely to react to it and given how recent Damian's own death and resurrection had been. On some level he might have even been hurt that he wasn't trusted to know about this deception either by Dick or Bruce. That would be his trust issues again. Also on a certain level he might have even seen this as a slap in the face to his own death.


Yeah I definitely think no matter how snarky Jason is towards him he has a huge amount of respect for Dick. I think he puts him on a pedestal to a certain extent. 

He's not just hurt because he was lied to but because of all the bat clan Dick should be the last person to make a batdick move like that.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah I definitely think no matter how snarky Jason is towards him he has a huge amount of respect for Dick. I think he puts him on a pedestal to a certain extent.


Imo he doesn't idolizes him not nearly to the degree as Tim does. 

Between Jason and Dick it was always more like a sibling rivalry opposed to Tims big brother worship. I think Jason would more enjoy rubbing it Dick in his face than being upset about it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Imo he doesn't idolizes him not nearly to the degree as Tim does. 
> 
> Between Jason and Dick it was always more like a sibling rivalry opposed to Tims big brother worship. I think Jason would more enjoy rubbing it Dick in his face than being upset about it.


I think as a younger brother you rub in the small stuff, but are disappointed by the big stuff.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think as a younger brother you rub in the small stuff, but are disappointed by the big stuff.


Pretty much this. There is a lot of potential in regards to the Dick/Jason combo that could be explored.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm curious, of all the Robin costumes that we have seen through Robin's 50+ years, what is everyone's least favorite Robin ever used? Comics, cartoons, movies, etc

----------


## Aahz

> I'm curious, of all the Robin costumes that we have seen through Robin's 50+ years, what is everyone's least favorite Robin ever used? Comics, cartoons, movies, etc


Appart from the classic one, the costumes that Dick had as adult Robin on Earth Two are pretty ugly and dicks new 52 costume is also not good. There was also one story during Dicks time in collage where he tired new fan designed costumes, which were also not good.

And I think that in general the character design of the Batman unlimited series is pretty bad.

----------


## Frontier

How would everyone feel about Ryan Potter(Supah Ninjas, Hiro from Big Hero Six) as Tim Drake in the DCEU?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'm curious, of all the Robin costumes that we have seen through Robin's 50+ years, what is everyone's least favorite Robin ever used? Comics, cartoons, movies, etc


Robin Earth-2 with yellow pants was horrible. 
I also hate the red one that Tim used at the end of his Robin's career because it replaced the best Robin costume ever (Tim's former costume).
The Chris O'Donnell second one in the Batman & Robin movie, was bad.

----------


## Aahz

> How would everyone feel about Ryan Potter(Supah Ninjas, Hiro from Big Hero Six) as Tim Drake in the DCEU?


I think in general that a teen aged Robin doesn't fit into the DCEU.

----------


## Atlanta96

> How would everyone feel about Ryan Potter(Supah Ninjas, Hiro from Big Hero Six) as Tim Drake in the DCEU?


Yes, 100% yes! Haven't seen him act but he looks perfect for the role. If they want a teenaged Robin in the films, I think he would be a solid actor for the part.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm curious, of all the Robin costumes that we have seen through Robin's 50+ years, what is everyone's least favorite Robin ever used? Comics, cartoons, movies, etc


Green speedo. It's a major reason why the character is a joke to so many people.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

About a robin centric book, I have to agree that it would be on a must buy list for me. I'm betting that JasonTodd428 is right in the assumption that 'Tec is trying to be that sort of book where relationships are explored, and I think that's a good thing. You need a book that does that because the solos only get to build one character and their supporting cast, this one can cover all sorts of relationships based on arcs and who they want to grow in that regard. 

As for costumes, agreeing with others that have said the green speedo, I also am not a huge fan of the short sleeved look as I don't think it offers enough protection.







> How would everyone feel about Ryan Potter(Supah Ninjas, Hiro from Big Hero Six) as Tim Drake in the DCEU?



Interesting choice, I think Ryan could be a good fit for Tim. He's certainly got the skills to act, and he's someone that DC could use to show that there's still some hope in the grittiness that is the DCEU right now. Have to wonder though, who would they get for say Damian, Jason and Dick?

----------


## Drake&West

Hey everyone, I'm new here. I've been a huge fan of Tim Drake for years. Since War Games when I first started reading Robin monthly to be exact. I literally buy anything he's in. Rebirth has been an awesome resurgence for him after a lackluster new 52 run. I liked Batman Beyond and parts of his other new 52 appearances, but I think he suffered as a character overall. I'm worried about what's going to happen in next week's Detective Comics but I love Tynion so I'm ready for whatever. It would suck though to loose Tim after just getting my other favorite, Wally West, back.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Hey everyone, I'm new here. I've been a huge fan of Tim Drake for years. Since War Games when I first started reading Robin monthly to be exact. I literally buy anything he's in. Rebirth has been an awesome resurgence for him after a lackluster new 52 run. I liked Batman Beyond and parts of his other new 52 appearances, but I think he suffered as a character overall. I'm worried about what's going to happen in next week's Detective Comics but I love Tynion so I'm ready for whatever. It would suck though to loose Tim after just getting my other favorite, Wally West, back.


I wouldn't worry too much, Tynion said he has big plans for Tim. I don't believe he'll be offed, probably just sidelined for a bit before returning in a big story later down the line.

Oh, and w :Cool: elcome!

----------


## Drake&West

Thanks!

I'm kind of hoping we get a Red Robin solo title again sometime in the future. Either that or have Tim leaf the Outsiders, I've always been fond of that idea. Maybe even have Cassie, Conner, and Bart on the team with him, it's about time they graduated from Teen Titans.

----------


## Aahz

> Either that or have Tim leaf the Outsiders, I've always been fond of that idea. Maybe even have Cassie, Conner, and Bart on the team with him, it's about time they graduated from Teen Titans.


I don't think that Tim and the other young justice kids are good fit for the Outsiders (at least not if you go by their pre new 52 charcterisation).

Of all the ex-Robins Jason is imo the one that would be the best fit for the outsiders, especially since his Outlaws are already quite similar.

----------


## Drake&West

Yeah, the Outlaws are kind of similar. I just want Tim and his Teen Titans crew to have a new team now that Damian has the Teen Titans title.

----------


## The Whovian

> Hey everyone, I'm new here. I've been a huge fan of Tim Drake for years. Since War Games when I first started reading Robin monthly to be exact. I literally buy anything he's in. Rebirth has been an awesome resurgence for him after a lackluster new 52 run. I liked Batman Beyond and parts of his other new 52 appearances, but I think he suffered as a character overall. I'm worried about what's going to happen in next week's Detective Comics but I love Tynion so I'm ready for whatever. It would suck though to loose Tim after just getting my other favorite, Wally West, back.


Yes, I'm hoping that it isn't true either. Welcome to the boards!  :Smile:

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> How would everyone feel about Ryan Potter(Supah Ninjas, Hiro from Big Hero Six) as Tim Drake in the DCEU?


Ryan Potter released this video as a Tim Drake fight scene concept
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t5...76771774_n.mp4

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ryan Potter released this video as a Tim Drake fight scene concept
> https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t5...76771774_n.mp4


Wow, he's really committed to this. I wonder if he'll take the Sean Young approach and start stalking Ben Affleck while wearing a Robin costume  :Smile:

----------


## Jadeb

I would be down with it. He can do both the action stuff and the more vulnerable character stuff I associate with Tim. Plus, he's old enough to not seem like an endangered minor while small enough to look suitably sidekick-y next to Affleck.

----------


## millernumber1

I am so on board for someone who believes that Batman needs a Robin.  :Smile:

----------


## Lhynn

> I am so on board for someone who believes that Batman needs a Robin.


Funny thing is that Dick, Jason and Damian where the Robins that needed a Batman.
Has this been explored before? how every robin but tim had unresolved issues and that batman made them robin to help them deal with those issues in a way that would hopefully not get them horribly murdered?

----------


## Drake&West

He'd be great as Tim! Now if only we could get them to actually put Tim in the film.

----------


## Frontier

Admittedly, I've been wanting to see Tim in the DCEU since we first learned Batfleck had a dead Robin, but Ryan Potter is really selling me on his playing Tim  :Cool: .

----------


## Tien Long

> Admittedly, I've been wanting to see Tim in the DCEU since we first learned Batfleck had a dead Robin, but Ryan Potter is really selling me on his playing Tim .


Though I'm always open to anyone playing that role.....................................gotta say, Ryan is really impressing me. I could definitely see him as being the next Tim Drake!

----------


## Sardorim

> Ryan Potter released this video as a Tim Drake fight scene concept
> https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t5...76771774_n.mp4


Like that Tim quote there. Batman does need a Robin.

----------


## josai21

> Like that Tim quote there. Batman does need a Robin.


So...uh...how do we make this happen?

A story based on Tim and his desire to help Bruce could make a great subplot to the solo batman movie.

----------


## Lucas 35

I think he will die in issue 940 or goes into a coma, then by the third arch, Shiva will kidnaps him for some reason. In the end he will fall into a Lazarus Pits, where he returns to your memories pre-52. Realizing that reality changed it will begin to investigate what happened. This would combine with an interview where they who spoke in Detective Comic would be one of the leading magazines for rebirth, and could be a starting point for Young Justice. Tim would go in search of his friends, Kon, Cassie, Bart, Secret, Empress and Arrowette.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think he will die in issue 940 or goes into a coma, then by the third arch, Shiva will kidnaps him for some reason. In the end he will fall into a Lazarus Pits, where he returns to your memories pre-52. Realizing that reality changed it will begin to investigate what happened. This would combine with an interview where they who spoke in Detective Comic would be one of the leading magazines for rebirth, and could be a starting point for Young Justice. Tim would go in search of his friends, Kon, Cassie, Bart, Secret, Empress and Arrowette.


I heard that theory before. It sounds awesome. If that's how it plays out it would be, like, the greatest thing ever. It could make Tim the most popular Robin besides Dick again.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Though I'm always open to anyone playing that role.....................................gotta say, Ryan is really impressing me. I could definitely see him as being the next Tim Drake!


I never really thought of him because i'd never "seen" him in anything, but he's got the martial arts chops, and the sincerity he brings to BH6 makes him perfect for Tim. He's far and away my choice now.

----------


## Lhynn

I just died laughing.
TimvsTheflash.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> A story based on Tim and his desire to help Bruce could make a great subplot to the solo batman movie.


Since The Dark Knight Returns was a major inspiration for the DCEU Batman it wouldn't be impossible that they would go with Carry Kelly over Tim Drake as new Robin.

But I still think they should first do a solo Batman movie to establish their Batman and his history a little bit better and his older already active allies (Dick and Barbara), before they make a Robin Origin story. All the last movies suffered from them trying put to much stuff in one movie, they shouldn't repeat that mistake.

----------


## KrustyKid

How would you guys feel about a look similar to this for a movie?

http://screenrant.com/ryan-potter-ro...e-concept-art/

----------


## byrd156

> How would you guys feel about a look similar to this for a movie?
> 
> http://screenrant.com/ryan-potter-ro...e-concept-art/


That is a damn good design, I like the one year later look mixed with the YJ costume. Why couldn't the New 52 Robin costumes look like this?

----------


## Jadeb

I like it, but I'm thinking they'd darken Tim's look way down for the movie. No yellow interior on the cape, and probably more textured overall. 

Also, Ryan would have to do a lot of lifting to get that big.

----------


## Frontier

> How would you guys feel about a look similar to this for a movie?
> 
> http://screenrant.com/ryan-potter-ro...e-concept-art/


Not half bad  :Smile: .

No one has been able to sell me on Tim with a hood though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## KrustyKid

I like it myself. Though a couple tweaks here and there wouldn't be bad.

----------


## Lhynn

So, red robin dies. Any thoughts on whats going to happen next?

----------


## The Whovian

> How would you guys feel about a look similar to this for a movie?
> 
> http://screenrant.com/ryan-potter-ro...e-concept-art/


I like the design

----------


## KrustyKid

> So, red robin dies. Any thoughts on whats going to happen next?


Doubt we'll see him again anytime soon. Maybe in the next five years or so. Lol, first Beyond Tim now the regular one.

----------


## Frontier

Maybe Phase 2 of Rebirth includes a "Young Justice Rebirth?"

----------


## KrustyKid

The last issue of Tim's TT run was also a nice read today.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Maybe Phase 2 of Rebirth includes a "Young Justice Rebirth?"


Given we've already got TT and Titans I think something like that might be a couple years away.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Doubt we'll see him again anytime soon. Maybe in the next five years or so. Lol, first Beyond Tim now the regular one.


Not that long, the Rebirth storyline Tim is now connected to is set to last 2 years. We'll see him plenty of times before then, I'm guessing in about 6 months.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Given we've already got TT and Titans I think something like that might be a couple years away.


This would be the first time we've had a Titans, TT, and Young Justice ongoing all at the same time. And possibly all good series. That would be a trifecta of awesomeness.

----------


## Lhynn

Hah, he doesnt even know half of it.

----------


## Alycat

Wait, did Tim spill out everyone's secret ID at one point?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Not that long, the Rebirth storyline Tim is now connected to is set to last 2 years. We'll see him plenty of times before then, I'm guessing in about 6 months.


You could be right. Just two years at the most. Should have clarified that.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Hah, he doesnt even know half of it.


Yea, I liked that Tim/Raven segment the most.

----------


## Buried Alien

Tim Drake's very first appearance EVER:



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I don't really want to buy the issue, but does someone have the panel of Damian looking at the RR costume?

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't really want to buy the issue, but does someone have the panel of Damian looking at the RR costume?


One moment please, 'Puts WhipWhirlwind on hold as music begins to play'

----------


## KrustyKid

reded.jpg

There we go

----------


## Lhynn

Its actually a very good issue, in that we see Tim being a human being (which we almost never saw) and a genuinely good person. Worth having imho.
If we had gotten this kind of personal development, even at the cost of action or adventure, it would have been great.

They dropped the ball with the costume at the end tho, should have been Tecs costume. But i guess there may be people that only read Teen Titans, so they didnt want to have those 3 guys feel left out.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Its actually a very good issue, in that we see Tim being a human being (which we almost never saw) and a genuinely good person. Worth having imho.
> If we had gotten this kind of personal development, even at the cost of action or adventure, it would have been great.
> 
> They dropped the ball with the costume at the end tho, should have been Tecs costume. But i guess there may be people that only read Teen Titans, so they didnt want to have those 3 guys feel left out.


RIP the New52 Red Robin suit, lol

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> RIP the New52 Red Robin suit, lol


Exactly. 

What's weird to me is the comments that BB makes seems, maybe it's just me, out of character for him. Again I haven't been reading TT so maybe this is true to form on his part there, but I thought: 

1. He saw Dick as a smart person who was someone he wanted to grow into as he got older, a strong leader who knew how to smile. 
2. Jason did spend time with the TT for a short while before his death I think, only briefly, and Gar thought that he was okay. How was "Being Robin" a cause to him breaking. Also how "Poor" Jason turned out. Jason didn't turn out Poor, he just doesn't follow the exact same code as Batman, the same thing that Babs and Dick does from time to time. (Heck Babs used a shot gun to shoot out tires in the latest BOP, does that mean she's "poor"?) I would more likely think that Bruce stays awake thinking about how he couldn't save Jason at that time and that guilt would be the thing that bothers him more then, Jason not being a duplicate of any of the other Robins. 
3. He at least some what got Damian on the mark about being a bit of a brat, but even so, Gar's not the sort that would be like "I'll give him a chance because my buddy says so" he's more the sort that would believe that the kid has a good heart on his own. 

Book was sold out at my store though when I got there. Must have meant something. Although I think they lowered the ordering of the series at this point at my shop.

----------


## Lhynn

Jason turned out dead by crowbar and explosion, then he got resurrected and went mad, then he went on a rampage trying to hurt batman, then he murdered people, then he tried to murder dick and tim and then he tried to murder tim again and finally he wind up in jail. I may have gotten the order of some of that stuff wrong, but you get the picture.

Being robin literally broke jason, at least pre 52. He got better later tho.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason turned out dead by crowbar and explosion, then he got resurrected and went mad, then he went on a rampage trying to hurt batman, then he murdered people, then he tried to murder dick and tim and then he tried to murder tim again and finally he wind up in jail. I may have gotten the order of some of that stuff wrong, but you get the picture.


He only tried to kill Tim once in BFTC, which may not be part of the new continuity anymore, and I'm not sure if that really would count as murder or as self defence since Tim was attacking him with a crowbar when he did it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Jason turned out dead by crowbar and explosion, then he got resurrected and went mad, then he went on a rampage trying to hurt batman, then he murdered people, then he tried to murder dick and tim and then he tried to murder tim again and finally he wind up in jail. I may have gotten the order of some of that stuff wrong, but you get the picture.
> 
> Being robin literally broke jason, at least pre 52. He got better later tho.


I mean, he was murdered because he was Robin, but it wasn't literally his being Robin that broke him, it was the murder and resurrection.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I mean, he was murdered because he was Robin, but it wasn't literally his being Robin that broke him, it was the murder and resurrection.


No, being Robin had a hand in how he turned out once he came back. His being a recreational project, admitted by Batman, rather than being seen as an actual son basically crippled their relationship forever.

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 40006
> 
> There we go


A far better memorial then this costume deserves  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> No, being Robin had a hand in how he turned out once he came back. His being a recreational project, admitted by Batman, rather than being seen as an actual son basically crippled their relationship forever.


When did Bruce actually say that? By that logic then so was Tim in a weird way. He was a therapy project due to how Bruce used him to deal with Jason's death. Can't really see Bruce seeing Jason as a recreational project. There's been scenes with Bruce and Jason actually having fun and clearly showing them care about one another, if it was a pure case of Jason being used as such, then one could counter that so is Tim and in a weird way Damian then was to Dick what Jason was to Bruce because Dick was dealing with the loss of Bruce at the time. And that is not how Dick saw Damian so why would they have Bruce say that? It really doesn't sound like Bruce. He's not professor Higgens and Jason wasn't Eliza.

----------


## Lhynn

31791ee96549d4a4d839630d084ba1a0.jpg
Can someone tell me where this is from?

----------


## Aioros22

Turned out dead by crowbar and explosion reads kinda weird  :Wink: 

Regardless, I`m not sure anyone is fully right or wrong in especifying what Beast Boy actually meant. Technically Jason`s sacrifice as Robin is what end up breaking him for a period of time and creating rifts in his relationships with the family. Nothing more or less. His number of kills have to be especified thought:

You have the Winnick stories, basically where he did kill in cold blood and is placed in that timeline where he was emotionally damaged and RATHO where he`s stable and more mature but has done it it a few times, with the cavitae of context being that the victims _weren`t/aren`t_ innocent whatsoever. In RATHO`s case, he`s given non immortals a chance. They don`t take it, he does.

BFTC and N:OneYearLater haven`t been referenced in years. They`re dead Jim.

----------


## Aioros22

> No, being Robin had a hand in how he turned out once he came back. His being a recreational project, admitted by Batman, rather than being seen as an actual son basically crippled their relationship forever.


It hand a hand, agreed. But in his demise and fallout, not the role itself. Although there was drama between Dick and Bruce about it at first. 

Not sure I agree with the recreational bit, since Batman has admitted more than once since the reboot the opposite. I remember bits by Tomasi, Morrison and of course full scenes under Loedbell.

----------


## Aioros22

> 31791ee96549d4a4d839630d084ba1a0.jpg
> Can someone tell me where this is from?


Damian _hugging_ Tim?

Now I`ve seen almost everything.

----------


## Aahz

> 31791ee96549d4a4d839630d084ba1a0.jpg
> Can someone tell me where this is from?


Teen Titans Vol 4 #18 (the Robin Requiem Issue), btw. that's not the real Damian. Tim is just imagines (don't know if thats the right word) him .

----------


## Lhynn

> Teen Titans Vol 4 #18 (the Robin Requiem Issue), btw. that's not the real Damian. Tim is just imagines (don't know if thats the right word) him .


Yeah, just looked it up. Basically Tim stating exactly what he tought of Damian. 
This is odd for several reasons, first he admits to having been robin, then he says he didnt care about being robin, he just disliked the very notion of a 10 year old risking his life like that. That was the reason he had the attitude he had with Damian.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yeah, just looked it up. Basically Tim stating exactly what he tought of Damian. 
> This is odd for several reasons, first he admits to having been robin, then he says he didnt care about being robin, he just disliked the very notion of a 10 year old risking his life like that. That was the reason he had the attitude he had with Damian.


It was a Scott Lobdell issue, it's not supposed to make sense  :Smile: 

I have the feeling Tim and Damian will get along a little better next time they meet. Probably the first time Damian has ever respected his predecessor. I'd like it if that was the case.

----------


## KrustyKid

Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?

----------


## josai21

> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


Dick -New Teen Titans
Jason- Red Hood and the Outlaws
Tim- In the minority here but probably his whole Red Robin run. First comic series I read so nolstagia plays a factor.
Damian-not enough out there Imo to choose.

----------


## millernumber1

> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


Steph! The Brave and the Bold and Solo semi-AU oneshots (though Solo was included in the new War Games collection, so it might not be as AU as originally suspected).
Dick - as Batman
Jason - I don't have one yet - I like a lot about him, but none of his eras have featured stuff that's separated enough from the terrible stuff for me to love it.
Tim - The first 100 issues of Robin - perhaps more specifically, from once Steph finds out his identity to 100
Damian - As Robin to Dick, interacting with Steph as Batgirl. Though I do love him interacting with Maya and Duke, because those relationships mirror Steph's interactions with him.
Carrie! - The DKR film, where they give her much more to do (though I am enjoying her run as Batman/Batgirl in DK3)

----------


## godisawesome

Dick: I'm still partial to Dixon-era Noghtwing, strictly as a personal taste thing, particularly his story in No Man's Land.
Jason: Under The Hood. It worked really well, and had a great DVD adapatation.
Steph: Batgirl. Seriously, Burnside Babs is just BatSteph with a bit more internalized cool.
Damian: hilariously enough, in Batgril with Steph. Just comic gold.

Tim: Nicieza's Robin and Red Robin issue.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph: Batgirl. Seriously, Burnside Babs is just BatSteph with a bit more internalized cool.
> Damian: hilariously enough, in Batgril with Steph. Just comic gold.


Haha, I forgot about the question halfway through - my favorite Steph is Batgirl Steph, but as Robin, the two issues mentioned.  :Smile: 

And so much yes to Damian.  :Smile:

----------


## Jadeb

I really enjoy Dixon's first run. The first few issues are a little rough, what with all the crossover stuff, but after that it's terrific, with some great art from 'Ringo and other folks. It feels like a fully formed world. Don't think it's been bettered. (Stayed good for a long time, too.)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


*Dick*: Either his Batman era or Grayson- I like it when characters are taken out of their comfort zones and both of these eras did that. (I was not a big fan of NTT.)

*Jason*: Red Hood and the Outlaws- A lot of character growth has happened with this era for Jason. As an aside I would have picked UTRH days but no one after Winnick really did anything interesting with the concept presented there.

*Tim*: His Robin solo days- A lot of good stuff here and I've always prefered Tim as Robin. 

*Damian*: Pre-reboot Batman and Robin- As with Jason there was a lot of character growth for Damian here. I also really enjoyed the dynamic between Dick and Damian.

*Steph*: BQM Batgirl days- All around fun.

----------


## Atlanta96

Dick: Late 90s Dixon Nightwing/Grayson Titans
Jason: UTRH
Tim: Young Justice
Damian: New 52
Steph: Batgirl

----------


## Aahz

If we are going by the main continuities.

Dick: Dixons Nightwing and Robin Stuff
Jason: pre BFTC Winick Stuff (But I really would have liked to get the Jason Todd Year one that Dixon and Beatty wanted to do)
Tim: Dixons Robin
Damian: Streets of Gotham
Steph: I think it's a tie between Dixons Robin and her time as Batgirl

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Dick: 3 way tie between NTT, Grayson, and Batman & Robin. Could not stand the Dixon Nightwing series.

Jason: UTRH, robin turned punisher is just gold as a concept.

Tim: Tie between Peter David's young justice and Chuck Dixon's Robin. These are 2 of my favorite series of all time.

Damian: Both pre and post 52 Batman and Robin, and his issues of BQM's batgirl.

Steph: Robin, Batgirl




> If we are going by the main continuities.
> 
> Dick: Dixons Nightwing and Robin Stuff
> Jason: pre BFTC Winick Stuff (But I really would have liked to get the Jason Todd Year one that Dixon and Beatty wanted to do)
> Tim: Dixons Robin
> Damian: Streets of Gotham
> Steph: I think it's a tie between Dixons Robin and her time as Batgirl


EDIT: Totally agree with Streets of Gotham, that series was fantastic for Damian. Really wish we could get a reintroduced Colin. I remember people were saying he could be related to Hush, which would have been fantastic.

----------


## Aahz

> Totally agree with Streets of Gotham, that series was fantastic for Damian. Really wish we could get a reintroduced Colin. I remember people were saying he could be related to Hush, which would have been fantastic.


It is one of the few series where he was a like able character and not overly cartoon or overpowered.

----------


## KrustyKid

So, what happened to Tim in Batman Beyond is directly tied to what happened to Tim in Tec,

http://www.newsarama.com/31233-rebir...t-day-dcu.html

----------


## Atlanta96

> So, what happened to Tim in Batman Beyond is directly tied to what happened to Tim in Tec,
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/31233-rebir...t-day-dcu.html


You mean, there's consistency now? What strange magic is this?  :Smile:

----------


## Orujo-man

> You mean, there's consistency now? What strange magic is this?


Hype, that's it. I hope this what good news, but I'm sceptical. Sorry but I don't trust in DC easy. I hope I'm wrong.

----------


## Lhynn

Called it months ago. But then again, i was probably the only one reading batman beyond.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Called it months ago. But then again, i was probably the only one reading batman beyond.


Been reading it too, not too bad in my opinion.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


Dick: Every time he played Batman role, "Prodigal" and "Batman & Robin"
Jason: Under the Hood
Tim: His first years (Robin #1-100)
Damian: When he was only in Morrison mind... maybe as Robin to Dick

----------


## Vinsanity

> Its actually a very good issue, in that we see Tim being a human being (which we almost never saw) and a genuinely good person. Worth having imho.
> If we had gotten this kind of personal development, even at the cost of action or adventure, it would have been great.
> 
> They dropped the ball with the costume at the end tho, should have been Tecs costume. But i guess there may be people that only read Teen Titans, so they didnt want to have those 3 guys feel left out.


Cassie was hit the most. It looked like. I liked that issue but sad to see whatever.

He is actually dead or like Dick Grayson sort of dead? I did read the issue but I wanted to make sure.

----------


## Caivu

> Cassie was hit the most. It looked like. I liked that issue but sad to see whatever.
> 
> He is actually dead or like Dick Grayson sort of dead? I did read the issue but I wanted to make sure.


He's believed to be dead by all his friends, but is actually alive and has been "taken off the field," so to speak.

----------


## Vinsanity

> He's believed to be dead by all his friends, but is actually alive and has been "taken off the field," so to speak.


So basically a Dick Grayson.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> So basically a Dick Grayson.


Right, but without the groundbreakingly awesome solo immediately spinning out of it.

----------


## Atlanta96

I think that the Red Robin identity is holding Tim back. It both ties him to his old Robin identity while also distancing him from it. He's not officially Robin, but he's not allowed to create his own unique identity like Nightwing or Red Hood.

So what would you guys think of Tim just becoming Robin again alongside Damian? There's 2 Flashes, an army of Green Lanterns, Marvel has a dozen different shared identities, so why can't DC have 2 Robins at once?

It could be Tim's big break.

----------


## Jadeb

> I think that the Red Robin identity is holding Tim back. It both ties him to his old Robin identity while also distancing him from it. He's not officially Robin, but he's not allowed to create his own unique identity like Nightwing or Red Hood.
> 
> So what would you guys think of Tim just becoming Robin again alongside Damian? There's 2 Flashes, an army of Green Lanterns, Marvel has a dozen different shared identities, so why can't DC have 2 Robins at once?
> 
> It could be Tim's big break.


Tim being ousted as Robin seemed all the odder after they launched the whole "We Are Robin" thing.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I think that the Red Robin identity is holding Tim back. It both ties him to his old Robin identity while also distancing him from it. He's not officially Robin, but he's not allowed to create his own unique identity like Nightwing or Red Hood.
> 
> So what would you guys think of Tim just becoming Robin again alongside Damian? There's 2 Flashes, an army of Green Lanterns, Marvel has a dozen different shared identities, so why can't DC have 2 Robins at once?
> 
> It could be Tim's big break.


I don't know. I think is better idea to do him more unique, called him Robin again it's like a back step. I prefer another new name to up him in the level of Nightwing and Red Hood, if he can't maintain Red Robin. New lifting.

----------


## godisawesome

> I think that the Red Robin identity is holding Tim back. It both ties him to his old Robin identity while also distancing him from it. He's not officially Robin, but he's not allowed to create his own unique identity like Nightwing or Red Hood.
> 
> So what would you guys think of Tim just becoming Robin again alongside Damian? There's 2 Flashes, an army of Green Lanterns, Marvel has a dozen different shared identities, so why can't DC have 2 Robins at once?
> 
> It could be Tim's big break.


I'm kind of a bit leery about that idea; to me, regression like that ultimately hurts a character a bit if a genuine effort to distinguish their return to the mantle as something different is absent. It's kind of like how Nightwing needs Seely to treat his second return since Flashpoint as something different. And I still feel that the Red Robin solo was moving the character along to a new level. And I want a graduated Tim Drake, and I don't think Robin is that position.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm kind of a bit leery about that idea; to me, regression like that ultimately hurts a character a bit if a genuine effort to distinguish their return to the mantle as something different is absent. It's kind of like how Nightwing needs Seely to treat his second return since Flashpoint as something different. And I still feel that the Red Robin solo was moving the character along to a new level. And I want a graduated Tim Drake, and I don't think Robin is that position.


But what else can they do with him that will make him matter as much as his Robin years? He can still progress as a character even if he still has the old name. Aside from the RR solo, the new name hardly made a difference for Tim, aside from making him feel like a Z-list character. Going back to Robin may be a bit of a regression to some, but I don't know what the better alternative would be. Cause I don't think RR is good enough.

----------


## KrustyKid

> But what else can they do with him that will make him matter as much as his Robin years? He can still progress as a character even if he still has the old name. Aside from the RR solo, the new name hardly made a difference for Tim, aside from making him feel like a Z-list character. Going back to Robin may be a bit of a regression to some, but I don't know what the better alternative would be. Cause I don't think RR is good enough.


Red Robin is fine. Give it a couple years of great stories and I'm sure you'd change your mind.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Red Robin is fine. Give it a couple years of great stories and I'm sure you'd change your mind.


Hey I like Red Robin just fine, my concern is whether readers as a whole are fine with it.

----------


## godisawesome

> But what else can they do with him that will make him matter as much as his Robin years? He can still progress as a character even if he still has the old name. Aside from the RR solo, the new name hardly made a difference for Tim, aside from making him feel like a Z-list character. Going back to Robin may be a bit of a regression to some, but I don't know what the better alternative would be. Cause I don't think RR is good enough.


I don't know if going back to Robin would even necessarily pay-off the way you're expecting. As crowded as the Batfamily is nowadays, I kind of feel like all these characters need to make sure they have a seperate identity and M.O. that can't be confused for each other. And since Damian still reigns as the de facto Robin, making Tim share double duty in a role traditionally defined by being closely associated with Batman in a very direct manner might damage both characters and the brand. Damian and Tim are already in kind of weird areas, considering Damian is operating as a kid Robin who only seems to partner with Batman outside of the Batman line and Tim was being rehabilitated as a semi-autonomous lieutenant in TEC.

And to me, there was nothing wrong with the Red Robin ID Pre-Flashpoint; there was vocal support for the book across the web, it was still running full blast off the momentum of Tim's previous solo, and while I could be wrong, I believe that even its last issues, theoretically the ones most hurt by the inevitable attrition all comics experience, were selling better than RHATO did at its average and about even with how New 52 Teen Titans did. So any grime and failure the role has for Tim now is entirely the fault of the New 52 trying to shove Tim into Nightwing's archetype off Teen Titans and doing a bad job of it. Whether it's a permanent stain or not is the question.

And I'm not going to lie, I considered TEC a short term rehabilitation; to me, the endgame, once it became clear that DC realized the failure of its decisions regarding Teen Titans and the properties therein, was always to eventually unleash Tim as a solo hero once more. The economic impetus behind restricting Tim to Teen Titans always seemed to be to ensure that book's success and try and redefine Tim entirely with that role. It failed. Tim's designed to work as a largely autonomous character with an ensemble supporting cast. But at the same time, I think that skewing any more towards the 90's Robin solo would be a mistake; the character needs forward momentum again, and even as much as some people decry the tragedies that hit the character Pre-Flashpoint, the character needs the veteran experience he recieved from having such a prolific career in his past. Tynion somewhat deftly implied _that_ through Tim's attitude and his role on the team. And I don't think the cause would be served by having him officially become Robin again.

----------


## Red obin

I'm happy beast boy mentioned Tim a bit in teen titans rebirth #1 as he missed an opportunity in teen titans #24

----------


## OBrianTallent

I don't think Tim going back to Robin is necessarily a good thing.  I would rather he stay as Red Robin if they don't give him his own unique identity  (or update an older one like when they were considering going making him the new Blue Beetle.)
Is there a golden age character that could be updated to a new identity for Tim?

----------


## James Hunter

> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


Dick: His time as Batman (either for Prodigal or more recently, both times were awesome)
Jason: Toss up between UNDER THE HOOD and the current RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS (Rebirth era)
Tim: It may not be the most popular opinion, but under Nicieza (both as Robin and Red Robin)
Stephanie: Her time as Batgirl
Damian: By Morrison with Dick as Batman in BATMAN AND ROBIN.  Honourable mention to ROBIN, SON OF BATMAN

Cheers.

James.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Right, but without the groundbreakingly awesome solo immediately spinning out of it.


Goody...just goody.

----------


## josai21

So...uh...any word on when Tim's next appearance will be?

----------


## Caivu

> So...uh...any word on when Tim's next appearance will be?


Nope, not yet. But I'd guess Steph might have a dream or nightmare of him or something. Maybe? Not unreasonable, even though that wouldn't really count as him.

----------


## Vinsanity

> So...uh...any word on when Tim's next appearance will be?


March 2017 is my guess. No reasons or evidence just a guess.

----------


## gwhh

Who is he with here and what issue is it from?

----------


## ZeroBG82

> Who is he with here and what issue is it from?


The girl is Lynx.  I can't quote you the specific issue, but she appeared semi-regularly in Red Robin (pre Nu-52).  She was a gangland enforcer, who claimed to be an undercover cop, though I'm not sure we ever saw it confirmed either way.  She and Tim had an intense flirtation that never quite turned into a full-on romance before his book ended.  Essentially his version of Catwoman, the bad girl with the cat motif that the cowled hero totally digs but can't really commit to.  She was one of several potential romantic partners for Tim that run introduced (including Tam Fox, and at least one al Ghul).

Frankly, she was awesome, and IMO easily the most interesting potential love interest for Tim since the early Stephanie days.  Hasn't reappeared in any way that I know of after the Flashpoint reboot.

----------


## josai21

Tim is Bruce 2.0 imo. 

The Red Robin run was really forging him into a more appropriate heir to the mantle than Todd, Damian or Greyson could ever reach.

Given enough time he could reach Bruce's level of martial skill and training.


Bruce at 20 loses to Tim at 20 imo.

----------


## godisawesome

> The girl is Lynx.  I can't quote you the specific issue, but she appeared semi-regularly in Red Robin (pre Nu-52).  She was a gangland enforcer, who claimed to be an undercover cop, though I'm not sure we ever saw it confirmed either way.  She and Tim had an intense flirtation that never quite turned into a full-on romance before his book ended.  Essentially his version of Catwoman, the bad girl with the cat motif that the cowled hero totally digs but can't really commit to.  She was one of several potential romantic partners for Tim that run introduced (including Tam Fox, and at least one al Ghul).
> 
> Frankly, she was awesome, and IMO easily the most interesting potential love interest for Tim since the early Stephanie days.  Hasn't reappeared in any way that I know of after the Flashpoint reboot.


What made Lynx a kind of "customized" variation of the standard Catwoman archetype was that undercover cop thing; giving her an inherent mystery in all her appearances and drawing direct parallels between her and Tim made their interactions feel more natural. They both are effectively teenage soldiers who present two faces to the world at large.

----------


## Drake&West

I loved Lynx and that whole era of Red Robin.

----------


## The Whovian

The Red Robin series was excellent

----------


## millernumber1

I have to admit, the Red Robin series was fun, but I didn't enjoy how Niceiza in particular had Tim constantly in sexualized situations. It felt very distasteful to have Tim constantly aggressively moved on by a large number of women, from Lynx to the crazy "you must impregnate me" girls. I much preferred Yost's writing of the first half of the series.

----------


## oasis1313

I liked the Red Robin cowl better than any of his other costumes.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I have to admit, the Red Robin series was fun, but I didn't enjoy how Niceiza in particular had Tim constantly in sexualized situations. It felt very distasteful to have Tim constantly aggressively moved on by a large number of women, from Lynx to the crazy "you must impregnate me" girls. I much preferred Yost's writing of the first half of the series.


I don't mind the women part but the girl you mentioned was a bit weird. I want to like that RR Costume a lot more but it's just like looks like other heroes, so that is like okay. Great costume though and I agree on Yost.

I felt like Niceiza made him too Batman like.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I liked the Red Robin cowl better than any of his other costumes.


I wouldn't mind if they brought the cowl back, just updated in some way. Maybe give it a more bird themed look.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I wouldn't mind if they brought the cowl back, just updated in some way. Maybe give it a more bird themed look.


I never liked it when his hair was covered, never felt like Tim. If they did something like the Wally West mask with the open hair I think that would work better.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I never liked it when his hair was covered, never felt like Tim. If they did something like the Wally West mask with the open hair I think that would work better.


Stemming from where Tim's journey began to where it was landed to that point I felt the cowl suited him. Not only was he more dangerously calculative prior to the launch of the New-52 he was also much more secretive than when he was first introduced. The cowl complimented that nicely. And if he's going to stick with the Red Robin name, a switch from the domino mask would help in showing a visual difference between Robin and Red Robin.

----------


## The Whovian

> I never liked it when his hair was covered, never felt like Tim. If they did something like the Wally West mask with the open hair I think that would work better.


I don't like that look on Wally, but I think it would be okay on Tim, because his costume is different.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't like that look on Wally, but I think it would be okay on Tim, because his costume is different.


True. Certain masks don't look good with certain suits. For example, Tim's rebirth Red Robin outfit would look pretty strange with a cowl.

----------


## godisawesome

You mean like here, in Brett Booth's concept art?
image.jpg
I personally think the cowl works on a more streamlined costume, like Marcus To's redesign, and I prefer the full head coverage for making him look more unique as a graduate Robin, in the same way Jason's helmet does.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yup, Marcus To's RR redesign is still my favorite costume for Tim.

My only addition would be a little more red in the boots.

----------


## Atlanta96

Ok, I did a search for tweets mentioning Tim Drake and in the last 3 hours, he was mentioned 21 times. This excludes bots and references to him as just Robin or Red Robin.

For comparison, Harper Row was mentioned 2 times in the last 3 hours. Duke was mentioned zero times. Here's the shocker, Dick Grayson was only mentioned 16 times. Keep in mind that Tim hasn't appeared in a comic in over a month, and he's still one of the most talked about Bat-characters on twitter.

Someone with a Tumblr or Facebook account should try something similar. I might do this again in a couple weeks. It looks like the theory that Tim is obsolete or unpopular has very little basis in reality.

Also, when the rumor that Tim was going to die came out, there was tons of discussion on both Twitter and Tumblr. Since there's more younger fans than older ones using those platforms, it looks like even younger fans who know Damian as the main Robin still care about Tim Drake. Which is awesome.

----------


## adrikito

> it looks like even younger fans who know Damian as the main Robin still care about Tim Drake. Which is awesome.


I am very young(I born when Bane BREAK the Bat) but... Batman Animated series, Young Justice, I know Tim before begin with the comics... 

I do not declare his fan but.. I respect him and know that he is part of the Bat-world.. HE WAS ROBIN, More Robin than the others, now is RED ROBIN...  :Wink:  IS VERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER WITH LONG PAST IN BATMAN COMICS..

*IS NORMAL, WORRY ABOUT ONE CHARACTER THAT YOU KNOW OF YOUR CHILDHOOD(mi case, for example).. MORE EASY THAN UNKNOW CHARACTERS FOR YOU.. When I started I do not know Damian Wayne.. and he was death.. Now I am interested in this kid.
*

ALL THE FANS DESIRE GOOD LUCK FOR HIM.. and a quick return.




> You mean like here, in Brett Booth's concept art?
> image.jpg
> I personally think the cowl works on a more streamlined costume, like Marcus To's redesign, and I prefer the full head coverage for making him look more unique as a graduate Robin, in the same way Jason's helmet does.


*I LIKED THIS COSTUME.  Different than Dick/Jason/Damian costumes..* I see a little of Red Robin comic(Al ghul saga) and Batgirl Steph and convergence batgirl, But in rebirth Tim use another costume...  :Frown:

----------


## gwhh



----------


## KrustyKid

> You mean like here, in Brett Booth's concept art?
> image.jpg
> I personally think the cowl works on a more streamlined costume, like Marcus To's redesign, and I prefer the full head coverage for making him look more unique as a graduate Robin, in the same way Jason's helmet does.


Yes, the cowl would have suited that look very well.

----------


## Frontier

Of course it would take Tim apparently dying in a blaze of glory for Damian to _finally_ say something nice about him in the recent Teen Titans issue  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though admitting Tim was a "great man" is a pretty strong declaration on Damian's part given how he's generally always treated Tim.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Of course it would take Tim apparently dying in a blaze of glory for Damian to _finally_ say something nice about him in the recent Teen Titans issue .
> 
> Though admitting Tim was a "great man" is a pretty strong declaration on Damian's part given how he's generally always treated Tim.


Yeah, I was impressed. There is hope for the little brat after all  :Smile: 

JK I like Damian and his words in TT seemed appropriate for him. I'm very interested to see what their interactions will be like when Tim comes back. I'm guessing Damian will continue to be a dick, but to a lesser extent now that he has a secret respect for Tim.

----------


## millernumber1

> 


Nice! As a TimSteph shipper, this is a great memory! (Though no Rebirth shipping images?  :Smile:  )

----------


## godisawesome

> Yeah, I was impressed. There is hope for the little brat after all 
> 
> JK I like Damian and his words in TT seemed appropriate for him. I'm very interested to see what their interactions will be like when Tim comes back. I'm guessing Damian will continue to be a dick, but to a lesser extent now that he has a secret respect for Tim.


Damian: "Drake... I want you to know that in spite of our past.... disagreements, I did in fact find my father's war on crime to lack a certain appeal with you gone. I am... Reluctantly forced to admit that I'm happy to see you survived you apparent incineration."

Tim: "Thanks. And I'm happy to have you back as well. Hopefully, it's a long time before we ever visit each other's graves again."

Damian: "Indeed."

Tim: "Yeah."

(Awkward silence.)

Damian: "...plebeian."

Tim: "Brat."

Damian: "You're adopted!"

Tim: "You're a glorified eugenics experiment!"

Damian: "Greasy hair!"

Tim: "Prebubescent midget voice!"

They punch each other.

Both: "I'm so glad to see you again!"

----------


## Atlanta96

> Damian: "Drake... I want you to know that in spite of our past.... disagreements, I did in fact find my father's war on crime to lack a certain appeal with you gone. I am... Reluctantly forced to admit that I'm happy to see you survived you apparent incineration."
> 
> Tim: "Thanks. And I'm happy to have you back as well. Hopefully, it's a long time before we ever visit each other's graves again."
> 
> Damian: "Indeed."
> 
> Tim: "Yeah."
> 
> (Awkward silence.)
> ...


Yeah, that sounds about right.

Unless Grant Morrison wrote it, then it would be Damian bragging about stealing the Teen Titans and then kicking Tim off a cliff.

Or if Scott Snyder wrote it then they would both get run over by a truck driven by Duke Thomas, who wouldn't even realize what he did and just carry on with his life.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

We've already discussed Snyder, but I don't think Morrison has any distaste for Tim. He always wrote him as competent, and even acknowledges him as Bruce's longest/most reliable partner in Return of Bruce Wayne. 

Tim casually trounces Damian in their first encounter, and only gets hurt because he's a nice guy.

----------


## Aahz

Morrisons Damian was not as overpowered as the current version, he was for example easily taken out by Jason in one issue.

----------


## Atlanta96

> We've already discussed Snyder, but I don't think Morrison has any distaste for Tim. He always wrote him as competent, and even acknowledges him as Bruce's longest/most reliable partner in Return of Bruce Wayne. 
> 
> Tim casually trounces Damian in their first encounter, and only gets hurt because he's a nice guy.


I'm still on the fence about Morrison. I'm not happy with how he handled Damian becoming Dick's partner instead of Tim but I'll give him another chance when I read some of his other Batman stories.

But I refuse to believe that You Know Who doesn't hate the Bat-Family. Especially Robin and Red Robin.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm still on the fence about Morrison. I'm not happy with how he handled Damian becoming Dick's partner instead of Tim but I'll give him another chance when I read some of his other Batman stories.


My only issue is that its clear the initial "bruce is alive!/RR" beat was very messy. It improved a lot once it pivoted to taking down the LoA, and then after when Tim really took ownership of RR"

Dick having Damian as his partner and as his robin made perfect sense, but all parties involved (editorial in particular) should have made Tim' transition from Robin to RR a bit smoother.

----------


## millernumber1

I have to admit, first, that I really dislike Morrison's writing. I like a lot of his ideas for setup, but his dialogue and his execution really frustrate me.

I like Tim's role during Morrison's tenure, but I don't like how he actually wrote Tim. I just read The Return of Bruce Wayne for the first time this week, and I thought Tim was written really generically - even FabNic, my least favorite of Tim's writers, gave Tim a unique perspective and voice. Morrison seems to treat Tim like "generic Robin with a wikipedia introduction."

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Return of Bruce Wayne is really spotty, but I love how he writes Tim in The Black Glove. Extremely professional, and him and Bruce operate in a way that Bruce barely needs to explain anything. Bruce notices something and says something like "Do you see it?" and Tim then explains the clue. Or when shit goes down Bruce just says "Go!" or "Robin!" and Tim is already in motion.

----------


## Lhynn

Morrison writes Tim just fine.

Only real problem i see with morrisons writing is that its sometimes not fit for a comic book format.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Morrison writes Tim just fine.
> 
> Only real problem i see with morrisons writing is that its sometimes not fit for a comic book format.


Not fit for comics? How so?

----------


## Lhynn

> Not fit for comics? How so?


A lot of it would read a lot better if the action was more dynamic, in a way that comics due to their static nature cant really convey. This can be lessened if you have an amazing artist that can convey movement with their drawings.

It happens with his most complex stories, like the return of bruce wayne. A lot is left unsaid, and you have only the art to help you understand it.

----------


## Atlanta96

> A lot of it would read a lot better if the action was more dynamic, in a way that comics due to their static nature cant really convey. This can be lessened if you have an amazing artist that can convey movement with their drawings.
> 
> It happens with his most complex stories, like the return of bruce wayne. A lot is left unsaid, and you have only the art to help you understand it.


I kind of get your point, but I think he works better with more over the top and crazy premises like his JLA run. His Batman stuff wasn't for me, aside from a few annoying creative decisions it just didn't feel like the best use of his talent. Too serious for his own good.

----------


## Lhynn

> he works better with more over the top and crazy premises like his JLA run.


I agree. I did really like his black glove story.

Found interesting that he thinks so highly of Tim.

----------


## phantom1592

> I never liked it when his hair was covered, never felt like Tim. If they did something like the Wally West mask with the open hair I think that would work better.


I agree with this. The cowl... just wasn't a good look. In close up shots... he just looks like Batman. From a distance, the cowl looks like batman but without the interesting ear points. It's just kind of... bland. 

For me, it was that spikey wild hair that made Tim different from the other Robins. Covering that up seems to just erase that uniqueness... Especially when it's in Dick's costume from Kingdom Come... All originality just disappears... 

Most of all... Masks are meant to disguise features. Tim's are already out there. Putting on a cowl after years of the domino mask is just trying to put the genie back in the bottle. I prefer the way Nightwing went when he graduated with a non-batman-lite look and an evolution of the domino mask.... Even if Tim had had a hood or something it may have worked... but going from Robin to Red Robin... ehhhh I didnt' like that evolution.

----------


## Dataweaver

Agreed. Remember in Red Robin when Tim went into a virtual reality? The costume we saw him wearing in there would have worked.
1615533-copy_of_red_robin_019020_021.jpgtumblr_mpunc3IrjK1r1n358o8_1280.jpg

----------


## Jadeb

Another +1 on the cowl. He looked less dynamic without the expressive hair. The whole costume felt like too much of a departure from what he'd worn before.

----------


## Lhynn

I liked the cowl, made him look like he meant business. Sure, it was a departure from who he was, but his life had turned around, he went to the middle east a tragic figure, a boy that lost everything. The journey returned a very dangerous and sharp man, the best of bruce, jason and dick all in one guy. 

Yost made sure to show us the transformation, the moment where all of his training took root and made him into a high level badass, that wouldnt be out of place in the league.

----------


## nj06

> Agreed. Remember in Red Robin when Tim went into a virtual reality? The costume we saw him wearing in there would have worked.
> Attachment 41358Attachment 41359


Agreed. I always thought this was a cool look for him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Agreed. I always thought this was a cool look for him.


Maybe if all characters with crappy costumes went into virtual reality, they'd end up with better designs. Let's send Shazam and Hubtress into VR right away  :Smile:

----------


## Lhynn

Was wondering, is there any theory or information as to why DC dropped Tim for the new 52? Many less successful characters got books, he has been horribly mischaracterized on every apperance since, editorial gave their blesisng to lodbell on trigon basically raping him and cass, they allowed lodbell to basically rewrite the whole character from the ground up to be a different person.

Like, this is beyond incompetence, someone set out to create and push a new character here. At the same time they basically stole Tims story and gave him to a duke, which really stinks of them just wanting to replace Tims place with this character from the start.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Was wondering, is there any theory or information as to why DC dropped Tim for the new 52? Many less successful characters got books, he has been horribly mischaracterized on every apperance since, editorial gave their blesisng to lodbell on trigon basically raping him and cass, they allowed lodbell to basically rewrite the whole character from the ground up to be a different person.
> 
> Like, this is beyond incompetence, someone set out to create and push a new character here. At the same time they basically stole Tims story and gave him to a duke, which really stinks of them just wanting to replace Tims place with this character from the start.


I don't think there were ever any plans from DC to destroy Tim. I think all the mistakes made with his character were caused by the overall horrendousness of the New 52, especially the Teen Titans books, and the fact that Snyder doesn't care about the Bat-Family. Duke's similarities to Tim are probably the result of Snyders inability to create characters and not some editorial goal to replace Tim.

They do seem to be giving Tim a pretty big shot with Rebirth, I'm willing to see what they do with him cause it sounds like they've got big plans for Red Robin. I really really hope I'm right about DC not being anti-Tim, and that my optimism isn't delusional. Cause everything about the character during New 52 was so freaking terrible that maybe, just maybe DC editorial hated the character all along.

----------


## Lhynn

> DC editorial hated the character all along.


I think they hated what he represents. He represented both a perfect robin and the possibility of a better batman, from a marketing 101 perspective he hurt the iconic brand they were trying to push with new 52. Cant have someone outplanning batman, cant have someone outperforming dick, cant have someone outshining batmans son. Especially an outsider.

They have been trying to push easy to understand concepts and archtypes, and Tim doesnt fit that mold, so he was made to fit, and if it meant that the character was lost, then so be it.
Also the fact that all his contemporaries got the shaft as bad or worse says a lot. They all broke the mold in some fashion.

----------


## Aahz

> Was wondering, is there any theory or information as to why DC dropped Tim for the new 52?


I suspect that they wanted one Robin exclusively for Teen Titans, to reduce the need for coordination between the writing team or to give the TT writers more freedom with the character.

----------


## josai21

True, the middle child typically isn't supposed to be the heir. Especially in place of the first or a biological son.

Unfortunately for DC, none of the other robins really fit who Batman is.

----------


## adrikito

> 


GOOD COUPLE... I like this images.

----------


## dominus

> I don't think there were ever any plans from DC to destroy Tim. I think all the mistakes made with his character were caused by the overall horrendousness of the New 52, especially the Teen Titans books, and the fact that Snyder doesn't care about the Bat-Family. Duke's similarities to Tim are probably the result of Snyders inability to create characters and not some editorial goal to replace Tim.
> 
> They do seem to be giving Tim a pretty big shot with Rebirth, I'm willing to see what they do with him cause it sounds like they've got big plans for Red Robin. I really really hope I'm right about DC not being anti-Tim, and that my optimism isn't delusional. Cause everything about the character during New 52 was so freaking terrible that maybe, just maybe DC editorial hated the character all along.





> I think they hated what he represents. He represented both a perfect robin and the possibility of a better batman, from a marketing 101 perspective he hurt the iconic brand they were trying to push with new 52. Cant have someone outplanning batman, cant have someone outperforming dick, cant have someone outshining batmans son. Especially an outsider.
> 
> They have been trying to push easy to understand concepts and archtypes, and Tim doesnt fit that mold, so he was made to fit, and if it meant that the character was lost, then so be it.
> Also the fact that all his contemporaries got the shaft as bad or worse says a lot. They all broke the mold in some fashion.


Or they hated everything Chuck Dixon did and wanted to wipe all of that out.

They succeeded doing just that with the New 52.

----------


## Lhynn

> Or they hated everything Chuck Dixon did and wanted to wipe all of that out.
> 
> They succeeded doing just that with the New 52.


What other characters from chuck dixon fared poorly? outside of the batfam i mean.

----------


## dominus

> What other characters from chuck dixon fared poorly? outside of the batfam i mean.


Connor Hawke? 

Aside from him, what other characters did he really work with outside of the Batfamily within DC?

----------


## godisawesome

The grudge against Dixon was more apparent in his immediate departure from the company, when they suddenly decided to nuke Bludhaven and all the work he'd done building up the place and felt it was now open season on any parental figures Tim had left and targeting Spoiler for disposal. His later return was marked by quite a bit less antagonism when he left again, presumably because they'd come to realize the value of his creations. I don't even think it was a truly personal and concerted effort, more that with him gone, all his stuff could be on the chopping block, and they pruned it because they didn't see the value.

I think Tim's problem min the New 52 was that marketing controlled more of that event than creators did, and marketing thought he could slot into Teen Titans as their permanent Robin. Then, while it slowly became clear that for whatever flaws they had, the Batoffice had its stuff together, it became clear that the Superman and Young Justice editorial boards did not. Thus the compulsion to change so much of the team's history in unneccessary ways, especially in regards to Tim. You could argue logical reasons behind changing Bart and Kon's origins, but Tim's background had no problems aside from being established. And so they changed it to try and make it better, but instead gave us their first display of how tone-deaf they were on these characters.

There's a bit of dark irony in Tim's time on the New 52 Teen Titans. When Tim was made a founder of Young Justice, the Bat-office was so controlling of his appearances that Peter David had to follow all sorts of weird "urban legend" rules. Heck, even Robin being part of Young Justice was the result of the Batoffice wanting to keep him from following Dick's path to the Titans. And then when the New 52 hit, it was the opposite; Tim was restricted to Teen Titans so much that he didn't even have a significant appearance in the first major Batfamily crossover. In a way, New 52 Teen Titans just proved the 90's era Bat-office right.

----------


## Lhynn

godisawesome, ive always wondered if you work in the industry. You have a way with words that makes me think you do.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't. I teach English.

----------


## godisawesome

Just dropping in to drop this.

*Young Justice Season 3 Confirmed.*

Tim is almost certainly returning to the small screen!

----------


## Frontier

Can't wait to see what's in store for us in season 3 and what they have planned for Tim. I know YJ will always be an all-encompassing ensemble cast but I hope Tim can get a little more focus and attention this time around  :Smile: .

I wonder if he'll still be with Cassie...

----------


## OBrianTallent

Over in the Wonder Woman forum, someone made a thread about WW adopting Tim.  The intent (I think) was to bring Tim out of the shadow of "Robin" and let him become his own character.  While i dont think Wonder Woman would be a better fit for Tim, how about if he followed his 'big brother' and adopted a different guise...as Dick Grayson became Nightwing, Tim Drake leaves (Red) Robin behind and becomes...?
Once upon a time, there was talk of Tim becoming the new Blue Beetle then they went a different direction.  I could see Tim sticking with a legacy title and become the next whomever.  But who are some golden age or pulp heroes that Tim could pick up from?
Sandman....Tim would rock as Sandman, a trenchcoat and mask wearing detective character, I think yes.
Midnight....DC's version of the Spirit, might become confusing if they bring back Doctor Mid-nite, but again, could be cool with Tim in a three piece suit and tie complete with fedora and domino mask.
Hourman....a bit of a stretch, but I could see Tim finding himself in a situation where he would/could become the next Hourman.

Any other ideas?  I love the character of Tim Drake and even though Dick Grayson was the Robin when I got into comics, I much prefer him being Nightwing.  Tim Drake will always be my favorite Robin, but if we are keeping master Damien around, I really would like to see Tim grow into his own character (and out of the ridiculous Red Robin moniker...)

----------


## Atlanta96

Personally, I'm not a fan. I'm all for Tim getting a new identity, but I still think he belongs in the Bat-books more than anywhere else. I like his bonds with Steph, Bruce and Dick. And his rivalry with Damian. I feel like he's the humanity in the Bat-Family, that despite his genius level intellect he's still the most average and relatable as a person. So moving him over to Wonder Woman would take away a lot of his best aspects, and be too much of a risk anyway.

I think sticking to his supporting role in the Bat-books, giving him a new solo, and resurrecting Young Justice with him as a leader would be the best way to go.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I absolutely agree...I didn't mean to imply moving him from his family, just graduating him to his own identity much the way Dick moved from Robin to Nightwing.
Sorry for the confusion.

----------


## Lhynn

Red Robin always felt like a phase. He took the name to punish himself and to do whatever it took to bring bruce back. once those things got done i feel he should have picked up something different. In new 52 red robin made no god damn sense, completely idiotic name.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Red Robin always felt like a phase. He took the name to punish himself and to do whatever it took to bring bruce back. once those things got done i feel he should have picked up something different. In new 52 red robin made no god damn sense, completely idiotic name.


If the Dick as Batman thing turned out to be a long term thing, they could've made Tim the new Nightwing which would've been cool. That gave me the idea, what about Redwing? Yeah I know it's also the name of the Falcon's pet bird, but it would be a massive improvement over RR as an identity for Tim.

----------


## twincast

> Robin Earth-2 with yellow pants was horrible. 
> I also hate the red one that Tim used at the end of his Robin's career because it replaced the best Robin costume ever (Tim's former costume).
> The Chris O'Donnell second one in the Batman & Robin movie, was bad.


100% agreed. And the OYL costume was terrible not just because it replaced the best Robin costume ever but also because the color balance was all wrong. YJ TV's take on it (with much less red), however, was pretty good.




> Green speedo. It's a major reason why the character is a joke to so many people.


That's true, too.




> Quick question, what is everyone's favorite era for each individual Robin from the span of their creations?


Dick: Dixon's Nightwing, followed by Grayson.
Jay: I like him, but he should've stayed dead.
Tim: Dixon's original Robin run, followed by his Red Robin solo.
Steph: Dixon's original Robin run, followed by her Batgirl solo.
Damian: Streets of Gotham, hands down, followed by Morrison's Batman & Robin.
Carrie: Since I despise its sequels, that pretty much only leaves DKR by default.

----------


## Dataweaver

> If the Dick as Batman thing turned out to be a long term thing, they could've made Tim the new Nightwing which would've been cool. That gave me the idea, what about Redwing? Yeah I know it's also the name of the Falcon's pet bird, but it would be a massive improvement over RR as an identity for Tim.


Redwing was also the name of one of the Team Titans.  It's actually a pretty good option, overall. If I didn't think that the next phase in Tim's life should be out of costume (running a “Birds of Prey”- or “Batman Inc.”-like organization as a way of showing just how effective vigilantes can be when they're _coordinated_), I'd definitely favor Redbird as his new codename.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I think there was a point back when Ted Kord was seeing Babs and was featured in BoP, and there was rumors that Tim Drake would train under him and eventually become the next blue beetle. 

As an heir to the TK blue beetle (more gadgets, less tech suit), Tim would be perfect.

----------


## millernumber1

Dixon wanted to write that story - he also wanted to make Steph Robin during that arc - but it was near the end of his tenure at DC, and editorial wouldn't let him do it.

----------


## Pohzee

> If the Dick as Batman thing turned out to be a long term thing, they could've made Tim the new Nightwing which would've been cool. That gave me the idea, what about *Redwing*? Yeah I know it's also the name of the Falcon's pet bird, but it would be a massive improvement over RR as an identity for Tim.


That name doesn't sound derivative of *Nightwing* to you?

Doesn't _former Robin that becomes his own man and takes his own I.D._ sound too similar to Nightwing? That's a slot that doesn't need filled.

Ironically, with how many teenagers and young adults are in the Bat-Family now, the thing that may have made Tim stand out would be for him to hang up the cowl and fill the role that Harper was created for: a civilian supporting character. I liked the idea that superheroing wasn't Tim's endgame and that he would retire when he ws no longer needed as Robin.

I hoped for a moment that they were aiming to do that in Detective Comics by taking him to college, but it quickly turned out not to be the case.

----------


## Atlanta96

> That doesn't sound derivative of *Nightwing* to you?
> 
> Doesn't _former Robin that becomes his own man and takes his own I.D._ sound too similar to Nightwing? That's a slot that doesn't need filled.
> 
> Ironically, with how many teenagers and young adults are in the Bat-Family now, the thing that may have made Tim stand out would be for him to hang up the cowl and fill the role that Harper was created for: a civilian supporting character. I liked the idea that superheroing wasn't Tim's endgame and that he would retire when he ws no longer needed as Robin.
> 
> I hoped for a moment that they were aiming to do that in Detective Comics by taking him to college, but it quickly turned out not to be the case.


What? That's what all Robins do eventually, find their own identity outside of Robin. Jason did it, Tim did it in spirit during the original RR run (but not so much in name). Unless you think Tim was derivative of Dick to begin with, he wouldn't be a Nightwing ripoff in terms of character. Saying he can't find a new vigilante identity because it's what Dick did just comes off like anti-Tim bias.

----------


## Pohzee

> What? That's what all Robins do eventually, find their own identity outside of Robin. Jason did it, Tim did it in spirit during the original RR run (but not so much in name). Unless you think Tim was derivative of Dick to begin with, he wouldn't be a Nightwing ripoff in terms of character. Saying he can't find a new vigilante identity because it's what Dick did just comes off like anti-Tim bias.


Jason's transition to a new mantle, and the mantle itself, are very different from Dick's. He died, and he came back on bad terms with Bruce. Even now, he still uses guns and keeps the Bat-Family at arms length. Tim stepping away from Batman would have little to distinguish himself from Dick's position. 

Tim retiring is not unprecedented. As Robin, pre-Flashpoint, Tim said that he didn't see siperheroing as an endgame and would step down when he was no longer needed. At the start of the New 52, he was retired. _That_ is what makes Tim unique. He's doesn't need to be a career superhero. An retired Robin isn't something we've seen before, and distinguishes him from the onslaught of Bluebird and Lark and Damian and Spoiler and Cassandra and Gotham Girl and etc. 

Or, with his technological skillset, he could function as an Oracle-type character, but making him a former Robin domino-wearing vigilante named Red*wing* isn't a very unique niche.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Jason's transition to a new mantle, and the mantle itself, are very different from Dick's. He died, and he came back on bad terms with Bruce. Even now, he still uses guns and keeps the Bat-Family at arms length. Tim stepping away from Batman would have little to distinguish himself from Dick's position. 
> 
> Tim retiring is not unprecedented. As Robin, pre-Flashpoint, Tim said that he didn't see siperheroing as an endgame and would step down when he was no longer needed. At the start of the New 52, he was retired. _That_ is what makes Tim unique. He's doesn't need to be a career superhero. An retired Robin isn't something we've seen before, and distinguishes him from the onslaught of Bluebird and Lark and Damian and Spoiler and Cassandra and Gotham Girl and etc.


I never said he should step away from Batman. I just want him to get a new name that will be taken more seriously than Red Robin. And out of all those young heroes you listed, Tim is probably the most popular and has the most significance to the Family. Why should Tim be retired to avoid making them look redundant? If that's a concern of yours why don't you go after Duke? Harper seems to be retired at the moment, so retiring Tim would be redundant too. Just let him be himself.

----------


## Pohzee

What made Tim an interesting character at his creation was his relatability (as someone once said, Peter Parker meets Batman,) though he had a natural progression away from it. In the New 52, his relatability was removed entirely, so I don't think you can jump straight to the trajectory he should have followed pre-Flashpoint without reinstilling a sense of normality to the character.

*Edit:* Skipping to the point where he's simply treated like his pre-Flashpoint self seems like skipping a step. He just isn't as relatable as he was. He graduated high school at 14 or 15 if we are to take Teen Titans 24 as canon. While I know somebody who's done that, its not particularly relatable.

*Edit 2:* I also don't want to argue anymore since this is Tim's appreciation thread, and though my initial complaint was about the suggested name, I fear I've veered slightly off the "appreciation" track.    My bad.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What made Tim an interesting character at his creation was his relatability (as someone once said, Peter Parker meets Batman,) though he had a natural progression away from it. In the New 52, his relatability was removed entirely, so I don't think you can jump straight to the trajectory he should have followed pre-Flashpoint without reinstilling a sense of normality to the character.


But, they've already moved away from his New 52 characterization. Yeah it's not perfect but he acts undeniably more like his pre-Flashpoint self now. Again, there is no problem. Nothing's stopping them from fixing his character, they've already started.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Over in the Wonder Woman forum, someone made a thread about WW adopting Tim.  The intent (I think) was to bring Tim out of the shadow of "Robin" and let him become his own character.  How about if he followed his 'big brother' and adopted a different guise...as Dick Grayson became Nightwing, Tim Drake leaves (Red) Robin behind and becomes...?
> Once upon a time, there was talk of Tim becoming the new Blue Beetle then they went a different direction.  I could see Tim sticking with a legacy title and become the next whomever.  But who are some golden age or pulp heroes that Tim could pick up from?
> Sandman....Tim would rock as Sandman, a trenchcoat and mask wearing detective character, I think yes.
> Midnight....DC's version of the Spirit, might become confusing if they bring back Doctor Mid-nite, but again, could be cool with Tim in a three piece suit and tie complete with fedora and domino mask.
> Hourman....a bit of a stretch, but I could see Tim finding himself in a situation where he would/could become the next Hourman.
> 
> Any other ideas?  I love the character of Tim Drake and even though Dick Grayson was the Robin when I got into comics, I much prefer him being Nightwing.  Tim Drake will always be my favorite Robin, but if we are keeping master Damien around, I really would like to see Tim grow into his own character (and out of the ridiculous Red Robin moniker...)


I think there was a joke where people said he should be the new Question so that could be a good role for him to play. Your choice of Sandman and Hourman would be interesting to see play out.

The WW connection might fit Barbara or Steph than Tim.

----------


## Lhynn

> That name doesn't sound derivative of *Nightwing* to you?
> 
> Doesn't _former Robin that becomes his own man and takes his own I.D._ sound too similar to Nightwing? That's a slot that doesn't need filled.
> 
> Ironically, with how many teenagers and young adults are in the Bat-Family now, the thing that may have made Tim stand out would be for him to hang up the cowl and fill the role that Harper was created for: a civilian supporting character. I liked the idea that superheroing wasn't Tim's endgame and that he would retire when he ws no longer needed as Robin.
> 
> I hoped for a moment that they were aiming to do that in Detective Comics by taking him to college, but it quickly turned out not to be the case.


Agree and disagree. Tim would have eventually quit if not burdened by loss, he would have gone back to his normal life. But the whole point of Red Robin was addressing that loss, it was too late for a normal life, even if Tim didnt like to think this. It crowned him as an A list super hero but it also made it impossible to go back.

Most important thing to keep in mind is that Tim doesnt need a codename, just a costume. Id be ok with him being Red X, instant fan appeal from anyone that ever watched TT, or TT go, it has red on the name and easily recognizable while distinct. He also isnt directly borrowing it from anybody, which i like, im tired of these hand downs.

----------


## thefiresky

Tim and Dick should partner up like a "cable and deadpool" or Simon and Jessica. They should flee the bat books and roll out into their own story as 2 "brother" superheroes. They could develop a new relationship and test their history together. PLUS I think it'd help both their popularity in rebirth.

----------


## josai21

Maybe we could see a supernatural style series with Tim and Dick.

----------


## Lhynn

> Maybe we could see a supernatural style series with Tim and Dick.


Tim has done supernatural before, it doesnt mesh well with the character. I doubt it would with dicks as well.

Or do you mean like just a roadtrip beating criminals along the road?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Maybe we could see a supernatural style series with Tim and Dick.


I'd be fine with anything featuring Tim and Dick interacting. I still think the best solution is to give Tim a solo and make that the focal point of all the Robins interacting with each other.

----------


## thefiresky

'Birds of Prey' should have been Tim and Dick and maybe Damien. And they should have reverted to pre-dark victory style mob villains with detective oriented plots. Wtf did I read about the bat family fighting giant monsters for?

----------


## josai21

More road trip style.

Less supernatural.

Maybe interdimensional?

Meh.

----------


## Caivu

> 'Birds of Prey' should have been Tim and Dick and maybe Damien. And they should have reverted to pre-dark victory style mob villains with detective oriented plots. Wtf did I read about the bat family fighting giant monsters for?


_Birds_ of Prey should've been a team of dudes?  :Confused:

----------


## Atlanta96

Ironically a team of Robins would have more bird themed names on its roster than the actual Birds of Prey. But I agree that BoP should always be a female focused team. And a Robin focused book, as awesome as that would be, should be called something else.

----------


## thefiresky

> _Birds_ of Prey should've been a team of dudes?


Yes...? The name "Birds of Prey" doesn't specify any particular gender, and seeing as BOP is low on the popularity scale, I would have wiped it and made it a Tim/Dick storyline. I think that would take off.

Edit: regardless of the title, I'm simply suggesting that DC should note the popularity of a Robin tag team spin off, but unasociated with the batman or detective story lines. More like Grayson... but with Tim... and Dick is still Nightwing.

----------


## Caivu

> Yes...? The name "Birds of Prey" doesn't specify any particular gender, and seeing as BOP is low on the popularity scale, I would have wiped it and made it a Tim/Dick storyline. I think that would take off.


"Bird" is an old-fashioned slang term for a woman, similar to "broad". The name's a pun.

Also, not sure where you get the idea that BoP isn't popular. Maybe relative to Batman and such, but not in an absolute sense.

----------


## Atlanta96

> "Bird" is an old-fashioned slang term for a woman, similar to "broad". The name's a pun.
> 
> Also, not sure where you get the idea that BoP isn't popular. Maybe relative to Batman and such, but not in an absolute sense.


BoP would be more popular if they had a better artist. Current run is such an eyesore that many readers are probably avoiding it just for aesthetic reasons.

But I think we can all agree that a Robin team book would be a great idea in the right hands. Potentially, the 4 official Robins (stay away Duke) could have more chemistry and rivalry between them than 2 other team books combined.

----------


## OBrianTallent

We Are Robin would have been an excellent series to overhaul into a  "brothers" series I always thought

----------


## millernumber1

> BoP would be more popular if they had a better artist. Current run is such an eyesore that many readers are probably avoiding it just for aesthetic reasons.
> 
> But I think we can all agree that a Robin team book would be a great idea in the right hands. Potentially, the 4 official Robins (stay away Duke) could have more chemistry and rivalry between them than 2 other team books combined.


People say this consistently, but I really love Claire Roe's art. Her noses are a bit odd, but I got used to them, and I love how strong her women are.

I personally am salty about a Robins book, because current continuity excludes my favorite Robin (Steph). Probably why I think Tec has the best current team possible.  :Smile:  (Well, original Tec team, much as I love the addition of Luke).

----------


## Atlanta96

> People say this consistently, but I really love Claire Roe's art. Her noses are a bit odd, but I got used to them, and I love how strong her women are.
> 
> I personally am salty about a Robins book, because current continuity excludes my favorite Robin (Steph). Probably why I think Tec has the best current team possible.  (Well, original Tec team, much as I love the addition of Luke).


I like Steph too, and it's too bad her time as Robin was so brief and overlooked. But as long as she gets the exposure she deserves (I'd like to see her in one of the main Bat-books) I think it's alright if they focus on the 4 boys. They're the core Robins after all, and their establishment as a unit instead of just individuals is long overdue. Whenever they get a chance to focus on those guys in a story, it ends up being interrupted to shill a Snyder creation. Thus my intense hatred of the Snyder creations.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like Steph too, and it's too bad her time as Robin was so brief and overlooked. But as long as she gets the exposure she deserves (I'd like to see her in one of the main Bat-books) I think it's alright if they focus on the 4 boys. They're the core Robins after all, and their establishment as a unit instead of just individuals is long overdue. Whenever they get a chance to focus on those guys in a story, it ends up being interrupted to shill a Snyder creation. Thus my intense hatred of the Snyder creations.


Haha. I can understand that, even if I like Harper and don't hate Duke (though I do hate Snyder's comments about Duke).

I'm a bit confused, though - isn't Tec one of the main Bat books?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Haha. I can understand that, even if I like Harper and don't hate Duke (though I do hate Snyder's comments about Duke).
> 
> I'm a bit confused, though - isn't Tec one of the main Bat books?


It's nowhere near as successful as Batman or All Star. Another reason Duke is my most hated. He was deemed important enough to be featured in literally the 2 most successful DC books at the moment, and everyone else is restricted to some smaller title that not as many people read. The Bat-Family will be sidelined and neglected until he is downgraded to a minor supporting role like Harper, who ruined Batman and Robin Eternal by stealing focus from the actual Robin characters.

----------


## thefiresky

My quote from the Duke thread: "My belief is that Duke will evolve into a standalone character within the DC Universe. What is interesting to note, is that if he does develop his own series, it will be right in the heart of the Rebirth series. This opens up the possibility for new readers (to rebirth) to adapt to him and essentially play catch-up. I think in order to present him as a new standalone, he shouldn't be confiding in the batman universe too long or he could fall to what I like to call "The Nightwing Effect" in which his association to Batman will be forever grandfathered into his heritage."

----------


## Atlanta96

> My quote from the Duke thread: "My belief is that Duke will evolve into a standalone character within the DC Universe. What is interesting to note, is that if he does develop his own series, it will be right in the heart of the Rebirth series. This opens up the possibility for new readers (to rebirth) to adapt to him and essentially play catch-up. I think in order to present him as a new standalone, he shouldn't be confiding in the batman universe too long or he could fall to what I like to call "The Nightwing Effect" in which his association to Batman will be forever grandfathered into his heritage."


I disagree. I believe Scott Snyder wants Duke to be a permanent part of the Batman books, since he is being pushed in 2 Bat-books. I know for sure that as long as Snyder is writing Batman, Duke will be a Bat-Family member. Although if they took him away from the Bat-books and did pretty much anything else with him, I would be totally cool with that. Because Snyder creations ruin every Batman story they're in.

BTW he's still just a Tim Drake ripoff who happens to have crazy parents.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's nowhere near as successful as Batman or All Star. Another reason Duke is my most hated. He was deemed important enough to be featured in literally the 2 most successful DC books at the moment, and everyone else is restricted to some smaller title that not as many people read. The Bat-Family will be sidelined and neglected until he is downgraded to a minor supporting role like Harper, who ruined Batman and Robin Eternal by stealing focus from the actual Robin characters.


Hmmm. I mean, you are correct that Tec isn't quite as successful as those two, but it's pretty solid. Still well within top 20, and selling about 80,000, which is pretty high for any comic, let alone a non-Justice-League-team book.

----------


## Aahz

> It's nowhere near as successful as Batman or All Star.


But 'Tec is usually the secondary Batman title (after Batman), that All Star is selling better is imo kind of surprising and probably only due to Snyders popularity.

----------


## Atlanta96

> But 'Tec is usually the secondary Batman title (after Batman), that All Star is selling better is imo kind of surprising and probably only due to Snyders popularity.


But, it's still selling better. I'm pretty sure DC knew it would be a huge success from the start as well.




> Hmmm. I mean, you are correct that Tec isn't quite as successful as those two, but it's pretty solid. Still well within top 20, and selling about 80,000, which is pretty high for any comic, let alone a non-Justice-League-team book.


Good for any comic, yes. But Batman comics need to be evaluated on a different level. They're DCs ultimate cash cow, by their standards 'Tec is a low seller. And who knows how low it will be a year from now, it won't stay at 80k forever.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Tec's problem is more of a branding one to because I think what Snyder is doing in All-star fits what people think of Detective comics. To me, had it been a new title with a fresh #1 it might have done better (#1 feels more inviting than #934 especially if your new to comics).

Even though Duke is being pushed, its not as bad as what we got during the new 52 where Barbara was the only batgirl allowed so it could much be worse.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tec's problem is more of a branding one to because I think what Snyder is doing in All-star fits what people think of Detective comics. To me, had it been a new title with a fresh #1 it might have done better (#1 feels more inviting than #934 especially if your new to comics).
> 
> Even though Duke is being pushed, its not as bad as what we got during the new 52 where Barbara was the only batgirl allowed so it could much be worse.


I'm not convinced that a #1 feels more inviting. The first Batman comic I remember vividly was a No Man's Land tie in, and the first Detective Comics I remember falling in love with (having read absolutely no other Batman comics at that point) was part of the Bruce Wayne, Murderer? storyline - and not the first part, either. I think comics are an exciting mystery, and the high number count becomes no more of an intimidation than the format or length of the stories, especially after it hits the 300s.

I think that Snyder is what's selling All-Star (and possibly the "All-Star" title, giving people a sense that this is a "prestige event"). Possibly also Romita. Tec is doing really well, I think - it's trying to make up for the limp sales of the last five years (including terrible ideas like Gothtopia, and several writing team that clearly thought they were writing "the less interesting Batman book"). Tynion doesn't have the name recognition of Snyder or King, but I think he's doing a great job building his brand, the characters, and the rep of the book with a stellar art team.

----------


## twincast

DiDio has called Rebirth's Detective a "surprise seller" multiple times.

----------


## Lhynn

Snyder wants to make duke into black robin, then upgrade him to black batman in some years down the line. That has been the reason this authors pet was created.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Snyder wants to make duke into black robin, then upgrade him to black batman in some years down the line. That has been the reason this authors pet was created.


I think it's more that he doesn't and never did care about any of the Robins and would rather use his personal creations in their place than think of ideas for characters he doesn't like. Same reason Harper was created. I'm still waiting for an explanation of what those characters bring to the table other than bad costumes and a purple mohawk.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it's more that he doesn't and never did care about any of the Robins and would rather use his personal creations in their place than think of ideas for characters he doesn't like. Same reason Harper was created. I'm still waiting for an explanation of what those characters bring to the table other than bad costumes and a purple mohawk.


I think Harper was a fun, non-romantic insight into the life of a vigilante from the outside wanting in. I really enjoyed her stuff in the first Batman Eternal. She is a picture of the cost of vigilantism without becoming the Victim Syndicate.

----------


## Lhynn

> I think it's more that he doesn't and never did care about any of the Robins and would rather use his personal creations in their place than think of ideas for characters he doesn't like. Same reason Harper was created. I'm still waiting for an explanation of what those characters bring to the table other than bad costumes and a purple mohawk.


Well, he obviously doesnt care. But hes been toying with the idea of a black batman for years probably. Thats what Duke is all about.

I dont have a problem with that, i dont care "who deserves it" or any of the other garbage most fans seem to care about, i just dont find duke interesting as a character, almost no one does. And the biggest problem with said character is that hes already been introduced and developed to no real effect, all of the problems with the character that make him boring and banal are inherent to him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think Harper was a fun, non-romantic insight into the life of a vigilante from the outside wanting in. I really enjoyed her stuff in the first Batman Eternal. She is a picture of the cost of vigilantism without becoming the Victim Syndicate.


I'll never forgive that character for all the problems she caused during the New 52. Ruining B&RE, ripping off Stephanie Brown at every turn, making the rest of the Family look like incompetent garbage in an attempt to boost her character, the constant assurances that she was amazing and better than everyone else, she was poison for the Bat-books during that time. The fact that such a derivative and unnecessary character, introduced at a time when the Family needed no new additions, was promoted to the detriment of the Robins during key parts of the Bat-books still infuriates me.

I don't think anything will ever make me like that character. At least they're not pushing her anymore, but the damage is still done. B&RE could have been the defining story for the Robins but they were too busy propping up that horribly conceived waste of space to make it that.

----------


## Caivu

> I'll never forgive that character for all the problems she caused during the New 52. Ruining B&RE, ripping off Stephanie Brown at every turn, making the rest of the Family look like incompetent garbage in an attempt to boost her character, the constant assurances that she was amazing and better than everyone else, she was poison for the Bat-books during that time. The fact that such a derivative and unnecessary character, introduced at a time when the Family needed no new additions, was promoted to the detriment of the Robins during key parts of the Bat-books still infuriates me.
> 
> I don't think anything will ever make me like that character. At least they're not pushing her anymore, but the damage is still done. B&RE could have been the defining story for the Robins but they were too busy propping up that horribly conceived waste of space to make it that.


If you're going to be upset with anyone, direct it at the writers. Or at the very least don't get upset with a character for things they didn't actually do.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well, he obviously doesnt care. But hes been toying with the idea of a black batman for years probably. Thats what Duke is all about.
> 
> I dont have a problem with that, i dont care "who deserves it" or any of the other garbage most fans seem to care about, i just dont find duke interesting as a character, almost no one does. And the biggest problem with said character is that hes already been introduced and developed to no real effect, all of the problems with the character that make him boring and banal are inherent to him.


Hopefully his lack of a memorable introduction, derivative personality, bad design, and the intrusive nature of his character will stop him from becoming anything more than a minor supporting character in the end. They've done such a poor job. For longtime fans he's easy to hate as an unnecessary and harmful addition to the Bat-books, for new fans he's hard to like because of his lack of a defined personality and clear reason to exist in the comics.

 A new reader comes in expecting Batman and Robin, instead it's "Batman and this random kid in an ugly costume who youre supposed to like and care about for some reason".

----------


## Atlanta96

> If you're going to be upset with anyone, direct it at the writers. Or at the very least don't get upset with a character for things they didn't actually do.


I'm trying avoiding attacks on creators. I feel being harsh on fictional characters bothers less people than attacking writers. I promise I do blame the writers for all of this, but that doesn't mean the characters are good either.

----------


## godisawesome

> Tec's problem is more of a branding one to because I think what Snyder is doing in All-star fits what people think of Detective comics. To me, had it been a new title with a fresh #1 it might have done better (#1 feels more inviting than #934 especially if your new to comics).
> 
> Even though Duke is being pushed, its not as bad as what we got during the new 52 where Barbara was the only batgirl allowed so it could much be worse.


All Star is effectively a successor in style to Batman Inc.; a continuation, after a fashion, of a superstar creator's run on the main Batman book with yet another superstar artist, where absolutely insane stuff happens while a new star is rising on the main batman book. 

'Tec right now is the Reborth counterpart to both itself in the New 52 and New 52 Batman and Robin.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'll never forgive that character for all the problems she caused during the New 52. Ruining B&RE, ripping off Stephanie Brown at every turn, making the rest of the Family look like incompetent garbage in an attempt to boost her character, the constant assurances that she was amazing and better than everyone else, she was poison for the Bat-books during that time. The fact that such a derivative and unnecessary character, introduced at a time when the Family needed no new additions, was promoted to the detriment of the Robins during key parts of the Bat-books still infuriates me.
> 
> I don't think anything will ever make me like that character. At least they're not pushing her anymore, but the damage is still done. B&RE could have been the defining story for the Robins but they were too busy propping up that horribly conceived waste of space to make it that.


Interesting. As someone who really enjoyed both Eternals (though I believe I enjoyed the first one a bit more), I don't quite see how influential she was outside of those books. I do think that having her not work with Tim during the second Eternal was a mistake, given how they worked together in the first Eternal. I get that Tynion wanted to tie her into Cass's backstory, but I didn't think that worked as well as it could have.

It's funny, though - I love Steph the most of any character, but even though I do agree that Harper was poorly written to take Steph's place in some ways, I don't hate her that much. Maybe because she's not really competing for Steph's place after the second Eternal, but she just doesn't bother me anymore.

----------


## Lhynn

Hated both eternals.

----------


## josai21

> Hated both eternals.


They were...poor to say the least.

So we are obviously prolly aware of this, but...100 pages is closing in! Tim deserves it!

----------


## Lhynn

Impressive considering we havent had anything worth discussing about the character for 5 years now.

----------


## gwhh

Tim Drake love life from day one:

http://fragileicicle.tumblr.com/post...love-interests

----------


## Lhynn

Yeah. Seen it before, its a fairly good breakdown.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tim Drake love life from day one:
> 
> http://fragileicicle.tumblr.com/post...love-interests


Ariana! how i miss those days. (Grummett's art is the best too)
Tam Fox was another of my favourite.
Steph is the one.

----------


## millernumber1

> They were...poor to say the least.
> 
> So we are obviously prolly aware of this, but...100 pages is closing in! Tim deserves it!


A shame - I thought Tim's role in both the Eternals was actually really good. In the first one, he was loyal, intelligent, and somewhat tragic as Batman's most loyal partner. In the second, he had a really nice development with Jason, and his role in shutting down the attack on Spyral was really well done.

Hip hip hooray for 100 pages!




> Tim Drake love life from day one:
> 
> http://fragileicicle.tumblr.com/post...love-interests


That's a nice page. I personally am pretty much just TimSteph forever, though. Sadly, that page doesn't have Rebirth TimSteph included, though it does have the genesis in the first Eternal.

----------


## Lhynn

> A shame - I thought Tim's role in both the Eternals was actually really good. In the first one, he was loyal, intelligent, and somewhat tragic as Batman's most loyal partner. In the second, he had a really nice development with Jason, and his role in shutting down the attack on Spyral was really well done.


Problem is that its just not the same character, its not the same robin, smart kid with a knack for detective work and a personal life, nor the same red robin, very young but experienced dark hero that can match wits with about anyone. Instead we got the super tech guy, for all your technological needs.
You see, Tim pre flashpoint was great with computers, but they were just another tool, like his bo staff or his throwing weapons, computers gave him access to information that hed then use to plan or manipulate situations, they rarely were used to directly affect them.

----------


## millernumber1

> Problem is that its just not the same character, its not the same robin, smart kid with a knack for detective work and a personal life, nor the same red robin, very young but experienced dark hero that can match wits with about anyone. Instead we got the super tech guy, for all your technological needs.
> You see, Tim pre flashpoint was great with computers, but they were just another tool, like his bo staff or his throwing weapons, computers gave him access to information that hed then use to plan or manipulate situations, they rarely were used to directly affect them.


I know you and I fall on very different ends of the nature vs nurture school of understanding character, but I personally view n52 Red Robin as the answer to the question: What would Tim Drake be like if he were created in 2011? When Scott Lobdell answers the question, I don't see a Tim I recognize or like. When Tynion answers it, though, I think it's quite logical and admirable.

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## Aahz

> Problem is that its just not the same character, its not the same robin, smart kid with a knack for detective work and a personal life, nor the same red robin, very young but experienced dark hero that can match wits with about anyone. Instead we got the super tech guy, for all your technological needs.
> You see, Tim pre flashpoint was great with computers, but they were just another tool, like his bo staff or his throwing weapons, computers gave him access to information that hed then use to plan or manipulate situations, they rarely were used to directly affect them.


He was actually already pre flashpoint going in this direction at least in Cross overs and Team books. That you didn't saw his other skills as much in the new 52 was mostly a consequence of him not having a solo book.

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## Lhynn

> I know you and I fall on very different ends of the nature vs nurture school of understanding character, but I personally view n52 Red Robin as the answer to the question: What would Tim Drake be like if he were created in 2011? When Scott Lobdell answers the question, I don't see a Tim I recognize or like. When Tynion answers it, though, I think it's quite logical and admirable.


I think Tynion has a better grasp of Lodbells Tim Drake, that he makes him more likable and interesting. I just dont think its the same character, or nearly as good.

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## Lhynn

Just skimmed the batman issues where harper makes her appearance. How lazy can you be? its a modern take on a lonely place of dying with a female character.

They really wanted to replace Tim. Also to be noted that we know far more about harper than we do about NuTim. Thats so fked up.

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## Aahz

> A shame - I thought Tim's role in both the Eternals was actually really good. In the first one, he was loyal, intelligent, and somewhat tragic as Batman's most loyal partner. In the second, he had a really nice development with Jason, and his role in shutting down the attack on Spyral was really well done.


Not really in Batman Eternal he was mostly Harpers Sidekick and actually didn't contribute much to the plot. In Batman and Robin Eternal he had good solo arc (at expense of Jason imo) but once it was over he was quickly sidelined. Good would have been if he and Jason would have been the ones (instead of Cullen and Midnighter) that stop the mind control virus while Dick takes out mother. 
Especially the use of him, Damian and Jason to prop up mother kind of ruined it for me (really one of the most humiliating fights since Bruce got his ass kicked by the Reaper in in Year Two).

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## pdiz

Any of you finish the Robin series from 1993? There are 180 plus annuals and it seems impossible since i've never read something with so many issues
From what I've read so far it's good and I'd like to keep reading but there are other comics and I dunno if I should invest much time in this. Is all of it worth the read?

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## Lhynn

> Any of you finish the Robin series from 1993? There are 180 plus annuals and it seems impossible since i've never read something with so many issues
> From what I've read so far it's good and I'd like to keep reading but there are other comics and I dunno if I should invest much time in this. Is all of it worth the read?


Totally worth the read, and will leave you really satisfied. You may skip the issues written by Bill Willingham, tho theres a lot of character development in those because of the events at the time.

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## millernumber1

> Just skimmed the batman issues where harper makes her appearance. How lazy can you be? its a modern take on a lonely place of dying with a female character.
> 
> They really wanted to replace Tim. Also to be noted that we know far more about harper than we do about NuTim. Thats so fked up.


I tend to disagree. There was a bit of Lonely Place of Dying, but I thought it was a really nice relationship for Tim to have - more a parallel with Steph's relationship with Tim than Tim's with Bruce. I also don't really see that they wanted to replace Tim in Eternal - Harper isn't Tim, and though she has some skills in common, she doesn't fill anywhere close to the same role.




> Not really in Batman Eternal he was mostly Harpers Sidekick and actually didn't contribute much to the plot. In Batman and Robin Eternal he had good solo arc (at expense of Jason imo) but once it was over he was quickly sidelined. Good would have been if he and Jason would have been the ones (instead of Cullen and Midnighter) that stop the mind control virus while Dick takes out mother. 
> Especially the use of him, Damian and Jason to prop up mother kind of ruined it for me (really one of the most humiliating fights since Bruce got his ass kicked by the Reaper in in Year Two).


Harper was much more Tim's sidekick. He didn't contribute much to the plot - but to be fair, I don't think anyone really contributed to the plot. The biggest problem I have with Eternal is that all of the heroes are reactive until the very last issue. Almost no one on the side of good has a plan or figures anything out - it's just revealed on the villain's schedule.

But I really, really love Tim's scenes in Eternal - he's so loyal and smart and brave.




> Any of you finish the Robin series from 1993? There are 180 plus annuals and it seems impossible since i've never read something with so many issues
> From what I've read so far it's good and I'd like to keep reading but there are other comics and I dunno if I should invest much time in this. Is all of it worth the read?


I've read...maybe 75-85% of it? After Dixon leaves in issue #100, it's not that great. When Dixon came back in issue #170-174, it was pretty great, and the last 10 or so issues weren't terrible (though I don't like them much). But between 100-170, you have Jon Lewis's really, really weird run (the villains are extremely confusing), Willingham's very violent run (and War Games), then Beechen's dreadful run.

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## twincast

> But between 100-170, you have Jon Lewis's really, really weird run (the villains are extremely confusing), Willingham's very violent run (and War Games), then Beechen's dreadful run.


QFT

Since they don't really have any bearing whatsoever on current continuity (or the last few years of pre-FP, actually, the important stuff - i.e. personal losses - having happened in other books), I'd absolutely advise against wasting time and money on Willingham's and Beechen's abysmal runs. The rest's great, though.

Reminds me, anybody know why the (still) upcoming TPBs got severely delayed? Still pisses me off.

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## Atlanta96

> Not really in Batman Eternal he was mostly Harpers Sidekick and actually didn't contribute much to the plot. In Batman and Robin Eternal he had good solo arc (at expense of Jason imo) but once it was over he was quickly sidelined. Good would have been if he and Jason would have been the ones (instead of Cullen and Midnighter) that stop the mind control virus while Dick takes out mother. 
> Especially the use of him, Damian and Jason to prop up mother kind of ruined it for me (really one of the most humiliating fights since Bruce got his ass kicked by the Reaper in in Year Two).


This is where an overly bloated Bat-Family starts to become a problem. There's so many heroes you need to fit in to the story that on their own, their accomplishments seem insignificant. There's only so many opportunities to go around and the more characters you need to divide panel time and plot points too, the worse off each individual character is. Sidelining and humiliation of popular characters is inevitable. It's a lesson they failed to learn even after the New 52, and I'm hoping than a couple years from now we'all see a Bat-Family mostly made of former Robins and Batgirls, with a couple additional heroes who know their place.

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## Atlanta96

> I think Tynion has a better grasp of Lodbells Tim Drake, that he makes him more likable and interesting. I just dont think its the same character, or nearly as good.


Agreed, but I'm going to wait till his Rebirth storyline is over before I decide if we're stuck with an improved New 52 Tim, or 100% good old Pre-Flashpoint Tim. Restoring his old backstory is a major factor, setting up a new path for his character (besides just Batmans tech expert) is also important. Overall the first 'Tec arc was a good start if they want to gradually fix his character.

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## The Whovian

> Snyder wants to make duke into black robin, then upgrade him to black batman in some years down the line. That has been the reason this authors pet was created.


That better never happen. And not because Duke is black. I just can't stand Duke. He has no personality or charisma.

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## Atlanta96

> That better never happen. And not because Duke is black. I just can't stand Duke. He has no personality or charisma.


I don't think even his fans want that to happen. Snyder really needs to reign in his aspirations, he just doesnt understand the value of characters.

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## Lhynn

> That better never happen. And not because Duke is black. I just can't stand Duke. He has no personality or charisma.


He was already robin in futures end, and has said that he likes to think about duke becoming batman. So i dont know how could his intentions be more transparent.

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## Aahz

> This is where an overly bloated Bat-Family starts to become a problem. There's so many heroes you need to fit in to the story that on their own, their accomplishments seem insignificant. There's only so many opportunities to go around and the more characters you need to divide panel time and plot points too, the worse off each individual character is. Sidelining and humiliation of popular characters is inevitable. It's a lesson they failed to learn even after the New 52, and I'm hoping than a couple years from now we'all see a Bat-Family mostly made of former Robins and Batgirls, with a couple additional heroes who know their place.


I think the problem was less the size of the core Batfamily, and more the number of other characters they gave cameos. And even that could have been OK if it was handled better.

If they had in Batman Eternal let Jason and Tim let take down Bane and Clayface on their own (and not let Batman save them) given them a central role and better showings in the final showdown in B&RE, it would have been still acceptable to me, since that would still show that they are capable heros in their own right, and I'm totally OK with them struggling during the story as long they kick ass in the end. 

For me final showdown is somehow the part of the story that overshadows everyting that happend before. Thats also my problem with Robin War, Tim and Jason have good sceene during the prison break but the humiliation by Damian in the end completely overshadows it.

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## Lhynn

> For me final showdown is somehow the part of the story that overshadows everyting that happend before. Thats also my problem with Robin War, Tim and Jason have good sceene during the prison break but the humiliation by Damian in the end completely overshadows it.


I rather think of it as a cowardly sucker punch on two tired guys that spent the last 15 minutes saving kinder garden kids from talons in hand to hand combat because the kids were too stupid to hide and their leader was a useless waste of space.

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## Atlanta96

Congrats Lhynn, you brought the Tim Drake thread to page 100. We finally made it  :Smile:

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## Lhynn

> Congrats Lhynn, you brought the Tim Drake thread to page 100. We finally made it


And on such a negative note too. Im such a bitter guy.

Wait, let me fix it with some of Tims greatest hits to celebrate. Hopefully well get many more.

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## Lhynn

Here are a few more!

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## Lhynn



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## Atlanta96

IMG_6826.jpg

IMG_6827.jpg

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## dominus

> Any of you finish the Robin series from 1993? There are 180 plus annuals and it seems impossible since i've never read something with so many issues
> From what I've read so far it's good and I'd like to keep reading but there are other comics and I dunno if I should invest much time in this. Is all of it worth the read?


Much better than anything that's been released since the New 52 started. Knock yourself out.  :Big Grin:

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## WhipWhirlwind

Francis Manapul and Marcus To absolutely nailed Tim. Maybe thats why I like that RR costume so much.

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## Lhynn

> Francis Manapul and Marcus To absolutely nailed Tim. Maybe thats why I like that RR costume so much.


Indeed, the second version of the RR costume was pretty amazing, summed up his hero persona perfectly.

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## Lhynn

Too lazy to go back and try to find it, but was Tim actually adopted by Bruce in the new 52?

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Too lazy to go back and try to find it, but was Tim actually adopted by Bruce in the new 52?


I don't think so, and personally I'm okay with that. With how old Tim was when he lost his parents I didn't think it was necessary.

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## The Lucky One

It's a fairly minor thing, but the listed contents for Robin volume 3: Solo have been updated to also include Showcase '93 #5-6 and 11-12. That's great news... I'd hoped but never expected that Showcase story to make the cut, both because it's from a mostly forgotten anthology series and because it was written by Doug Moench, not Chuck Dixon. But it's an early Tim Drake solo story and features one of the first Robin/Nightwing team-ups (I believe the first "official" one since "A Lonely Place of Dying"), so I'm very glad it's being included.

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## Lhynn

> I don't think so, and personally I'm okay with that. With how old Tim was when he lost his parents I didn't think it was necessary.


Back then? it wasnt necesary, it was a gesture, Bruce wanted Tim to be his son, he wanted Tim to know he had a family.
It was Morrison tying lose ends in the Bruce/Tim relationship, and their Batman/Robin dynamic in preparation for the arrival of Damian (this is why you got stories like when Bruce tells Tim that he finally reached Dicks level back when he was robin, in terms of coordination, effectiveness and team work).

This whole thing was the reason Damian hated Tim, he thought Tim was taking a place that rightfully belonged to him.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Back then? it wasnt necesary, it was a gesture, Bruce wanted Tim to be his son, he wanted Tim to know he had a family.
> It was Morrison tying lose ends in the Bruce/Tim relationship, and their Batman/Robin dynamic in preparation for the arrival of Damian (this is why you got stories like when Bruce tells Tim that he finally reached Dicks level back when he was robin, in terms of coordination, effectiveness and team work).
> 
> This whole thing was the reason Damian hated Tim, he thought Tim was taking a place that rightfully belonged to him.


Ah good point, that makes sense. Honestly the only thing I didn't like about the adoption was name, "Tim Wayne" just feels weird.

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## Aahz

> I know you and I fall on very different ends of the nature vs nurture school of understanding character, but I personally view n52 Red Robin as the answer to the question: What would Tim Drake be like if he were created in 2011? When Scott Lobdell answers the question, I don't see a Tim I recognize or like. When Tynion answers it, though, I think it's quite logical and admirable.


For me the new 52 Tim his kind of an amalgamation of him and Lonnie Machin. There are parts in his new 52 origin that remind me more an Lonnies than on Tims origin.

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## Lhynn

> For me the new 52 Tim his kind of an amalgamation of him and Lonnie Machin. There are parts in his new 52 origin that remind me more an Lonnies than on Tims origin.


Actually in the thread about pitching your own story i wanted to specify that NuTim was actually Loonie, too bad he already made an appearance on New 52, otherwise it would have fit perfectly.

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## Aahz

> Actually in the thread about pitching your own story i wanted to specify that NuTim was actually Loonie, too bad he already made an appearance on New 52, otherwise it would have fit perfectly.


Since Tim changed his name in his origin it could have  worked. And since they were both original created as new Robin to replace Jason it would have kind of made sense.

btw. after his appaerance in this End game tie in (wich was kind of a #0 issue for We Are Robin), I was actually hoping Lonnie to pop up in We are Robin but unfortunatly he didn't appear again sofar.

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## Lhynn

> Since Tim changed his name in his origin it could have  worked. And since they were both original created as new Robin to replace Jason it would have kind of made sense.


Had no idea about this. Source?




> after his appaerance in this End game tie in (wich was kind of a #0 issue for We Are Robin), I was actually hoping Lonnie to pop up in We are Robin but unfortunatly he didn't appear again sofar.


Nu52 Tim being Loonie just fits. Him being tech saavy, his computer expertise, his drive, him being an activist, etc.

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## Aahz

> Had no idea about this. Source?


It is from this interview with Allan Grant.




> *Another creation for the character was Anarky. Is it true the character was originally dreamed up as the potential third Robin?*
> 
> Yes. I knew Robin was going to die, and figured we'd need a replacement. I wanted a kid whose beliefs were not the same as Batman's, in fact whose beliefs would clash with Batman's. I didn't want any dead parents who needed to be revenged. I wanted a kid who could think.
> 
> What I didn't know, until the script arrived on my desk, is that Marv Wolfman had already created the new Robin. Bastard.





> Nu52 Tim being Loonie just fits. Him being tech saavy, his computer expertise, his drive, him being an activist, etc.


He lacks Lonnies "beliefs" but appart from this many elements, were very Lonnie like. Like having completely normal (not super rich) parents, being a genius (and not just smart)  and the thing with hacking bank accounts and giving the money to the poor (thats what Lonnie did in the story when he and Tim had their first encounter).

I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.

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## WhipWhirlwind

Ugh I totally forgot about the "drake isn't his real name" thing. We really just need to get rid of that completely.

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## Lhynn

> I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.


I disagree, i found very interesting that Tim was a nice guy, that he was much like the heroes of the past, a very antiquated character, a good student and a good kid. Tired of reading about troubled kids that do what they do for personal reasons. Tim represented the ideal of a young hero and i found that old concept unique for in his generation.

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## Aahz

> I disagree, i found very interesting that Tim was a nice guy, that he was much like the heroes of the past, a very antiquated character, a good student and a good kid. Tired of reading about troubled kids that do what they do for personal reasons. Tim represented the ideal of a young hero and i found that old concept unique for in his generation.


Lonnie wasn't troubled or had personal reasons for what he did, he had just more radical believes.
The moral conflict between him and Bruce could have resulted in some interesting stories (like Diplomats Son), but I doubt that it would have worked on the long run.

Tim was nice and likeable character and enjoyable to read, but there wasn't much potential for this kind of conflict between him and Bruce.

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## Aioros22

> It is from this interview with Allan Grant.
> 
> 
> 
> He lacks Lonnies "beliefs" but appart from this many elements, were very Lonnie like. Like having completely normal (not super rich) parents, being a genius (and not just smart)  and the thing with hacking bank accounts and giving the money to the poor (thats what Lonnie did in the story when he and Tim had their first encounter).
> 
> I think that could have actually been a more interesting Robin than Tim, but probably a less likeable one.


The more things come out about the inside mechanics of what was going on at the time, the more the bat office sings a new low. 

No wonder O`Neil apologized about the whole thing years later.

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## Lhynn

> The more things come out about the inside mechanics of what was going on at the time, the more the bat office sinks to a new low.


Why?  How was that wrong?

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## Aioros22

In this case, the very especific thing about creators envisioning a new Robin-esque character while the former wasn`t yet dead. 

The whole phone-call business is just what Miller described it at the time. Rotten business.

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## Atlanta96

> In this case, the very especific thing about creators envisioning a new Robin-esque character while the former wasn`t yet dead. 
> 
> The whole phone-call business is just what Miller described it at the time. Rotten business.


But fans didn't like Jason that much. They had good reason to get rid of him. They didn't do it perfectly but it was still understandable.

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## Lhynn

Aye, to get to the point to create a campaign with the whole "save robin" thing meant that they had to have been talking about how no one liked jason and that he maybe had to go for months. Wasnt a spur of the moment thing.

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## Aioros22

> But fans didn't like Jason that much. *They had good reason to get rid of him*. They didn't do it perfectly but it was still understandable.


Lol, what? Sorry, but no. There`s no good reason to make a character a sacrifising lamb. If he wasn`t well written then it is up to the writers to change that. If writers aren`t competent, get writers with a clear direction to do the job. If they didn`t like the character then exit him out accordingly instead of creating a poll to pass the hot potato around. 

The "fans didn`t like Jason that much" is rubbish. The poll was won by a small margin and O`Neil has especified twice since then how it was one person who continuily set those numbers up. He`s been too especif about that theory when he apologized for having it been a lie. 

Jason may have been divisive but he wasn`t hated. And its only natural when your predecessor was the original take.

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## Aioros22

> Aye, to get to the point to create a campaign with the whole "save robin" thing meant that they had to have been talking about how no one liked jason and that he maybe had to go for months. Wasnt a spur of the moment thing.


The way O`Neil describes it initially, it wasn`t planned that ahead either. 

Bottom line, they wanted to create controvery and got it.

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## Aioros22

But what gets me, is how contradicting several directions are about the matter. Starlin was on the take that "Robin" was a concept he hated. He seemed to want the comic Batman to take the same ground as the popular movie (which came around the same time). Granted some stories at the time were popular because they took that approach, but so were others were Jason/Robin was essential for the core of said sucess. A Dark Knight Returns without Jason and a Robin isn`t the same thing, for example. But then you read how Wolfman and Grant had obviously opposing views and despite what O`Neil said (he`s been especifically apologetic about his famous remark on his Jason`s return would be a sleazy stunt) were already lining up someone else. 

Starlin, very obviously, wasn`t already in the helm by the time "A Lonely Place of Dying" comes in. We have contraditorial statements and directions here, gentlemen. In the big picture, it`s obvious Robin is essential for the franchise and I`ve always defended such a theory. But I never liked or respected the office to make a lamb out of a sacrifise. The cost was post-death writers, for years, always refering Jason as this error101, when all the time he was alive, even during DITF by the writer who admitadly hated the concept, he ws never described as such a thing. Someone with different struggles than Grayson? Sure. But that`s a narrative plus, not a detritment. 

I think it shows the point on how Jason was mostly presented when compared to the newcomer in Tim and I think that only helped Tim being liked and accepted. It`s very obvious and it`s not a knock on Tim, is just dirty business all around.

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## Lhynn

Seems to me like you are denying the fact that a lot of people didnt like jason. Also what is this rubbish about not making a character a sacrificial lamb. if you need to kill a character to tell a story and you believe the story to be worth it, do so.
To this day Jasons death has been a defining moment for Batman, it may not have been handled in the best way possible, but it definitely wasnt poorly done.

Support characters die all the time in fiction, even protagonists that dont resonate with the audience anymore get killed off. Sometimes it has nothing to do with them, maybe the author just wants to go in another direction and replace the lead. This also happens, its all storytelling. And other than well written stories i have no demands for said characters.

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## Lhynn

> But what gets me, is how contradicting several directions are about the matter. Starlin was on the take that "Robin" was a concept he hated. He seemed to want the comic Batman to take the same ground as the popular movie (which came around the same time). Granted some stories at the time were popular because they took that approach, but so were others were Jason/Robin was essential for the core of said sucess. A Dark Knight Returns without Jason and a Robin isn`t the same thing, for example. But then you read how Wolfman and Grant had obviously opposing views and despite what O`Neil said (he`s been especifically apologetic about his famous remark on his Jason`s return would be a sleazy stunt) were already lining up someone else.


I personally believe batman is enriched by having a robin and disagree with Starlin. I also believe that batman and robin are good enough concepts to exist independently.




> Starlin, very obviously, wasn`t already in the helm by the time "A Lonely Place of Dying" comes in. We have contraditorial statements and directions here, gentlemen. In the big picture, it`s obvious Robin is essential for the franchise and I`ve always defended such a theory. But I never liked or respected the office to make a lamb out of a sacrifise.


The office disagreed tho, which is why they sought a new robin so fast, they wanted what the character brought and there were obviously also economical reasons behind it. Robin was popular.




> The cost was post-death writers, for years, always refering Jason as this error101, when all the time he was alive, even during DITF by the writer who admitadly hated the concept, he ws never described as such a thing. Someone with different struggles than Grayson? Sure. But that`s a narrative plus, not a detritment.


To this day i think batman refuses to acknowledge Jason is alive. So do most of his writers, it is a bit jarring, but that big was the impact of jasons death on the batman mythos. And they refuse to let go of the character development that his death brought.




> I think it shows the point on how Jason was mostly presented when compared to the newcomer in Tim and I think that only helped Tim being liked and accepted. It`s very obvious and it`s not a knock on Tim, is just dirty business all around.


As i said, i dont think killing a character to sell books should be seen as dirty, especially if its taken advantage of to make good stories and make the characters even more interesting. This is a point ill always defend, even if a character i particularly fancy gets axed, tell a good story. I might not like it or even keep following the book, but i wont hate you for it or think it was dirty.

I think what got Tim accepted by almost everyone was that he was clearly less capable than jason, this softened the blow when Tim came, also that Tim had a deep respect for both Jason, and the Robin legacy, which reflected a lot of jasons fans thoughts at the time. Tim came not to replace him, but to honor him in a way, or at least that was what the narrative was in the book. It was well handled.

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## Aioros22

> Seems to me like you are denying the fact that a lot of people didnt like jason.


I actually mention how I don`t, considering how his predecessor remains to this day, the most popular version of Robin. It`s only natural. 

What I don`t accept, because it wasn`t even true back then, is the made up fact that he was majorily hated by fans of the franchise. 




> Also what is this rubbish about not making a character a sacrificial lamb. if you need to kill a character to tell a story and you believe the story to be worth it, do so.


A story needs to have it`s own narrative value to be pursued. What pushed this further wasn`t a story for it`s own "obvious conclusion". A _one-off_ poll that was never to be used ever again because of the backlash it sparked doesn`t have narrative value whatsoever to me. It`s not abot characters not being able to die. When I say sacrifcial lamb is how it was done at almost nothing his expense as a character for years to build the next in line - whoever it was going to be. 




> To this day Jasons death has been a defining moment for Batman, it may not have been handled in the best way possible, but it definitely wasnt poorly done.


I didn`t said it wasn`t defining. I said the backstage mechanics were dirty business and tainted it. 

Look, if it didn`t the main editor wouldn`t have apologized for it later. But they received backlash, Starlin was out right after and it wouldn`t take much longer for them to "fix it". O Neil didn`t stay as the main guy in the office much more often either. 




> Support characters die all the time in fiction, even protagonists that dont resonate with the audience anymore get killed off. Sometimes it has nothing to do with them, maybe the author just wants to go in another direction and replace the lead. This also happens, its all storytelling. And other than well written stories i have no demands for said characters.


When it`s done organically and with a clear direction, sure. 

When it`s done with a contradicting agenda, meh.

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## Atlanta96

Yep, the respect for Jason and Dick that was shown with Tim's introduction really worked to his advantage. I still think Tim had one of the best character introductions in comics since the Silver Age. It felt so natural, transitioning from LPoD to his development in the main Bat-Books to the Robin minis, and concluding with his massively popular solo book. They took small steps that all succeeded, instead of trying and failing to build him up slowly and then shoving him down everyone's throats like they do nowadays.

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## Lhynn

> What I don`t accept, because it wasn`t even true back then, is the made up fact that he was majorily hated by fans of the franchise.


Well, the narrative seems to be that jason wasnt liked because he was a carbon copy of Dick, and when this got changed it was already too late. Im probably wrong, but this is what ive been told since i started getting interested on it.




> A story needs to have it`s own narrative value to be pursued. What pushed this further wasn`t a story for it`s own "obvious conclusion". A _one-off_ poll that was never to be used ever again because of the backlash it sparked doesn`t have narrative value whatsoever to me. It`s not abot characters not being able to die. When I say sacrifcial lamb is how it was done at almost nothing his expense as a character for years to build the next in line - whoever it was going to be.


Jasons death had nothing to do with "the next in line", and i think if they hadnt gone for the voting result, they would have killed jason by default, because the writer simply didnt like him and thought batman worked better without him.




> I didn`t said it wasn`t defining. I said the backstage mechanics were dirty business and tainted it. 
> 
> Look, if it didn`t the main editor wouldn`t have apologized for it later. But they received backlash, Starlin was out right after and it wouldn`t take much longer for them to "fix it". O Neil didn`t stay as the main guy in the office much more often either.


Hm, fair point, i concede there.




> When it`s done organically and with a clear direction, sure. 
> When it`s done with a contradicting agenda, meh.


True enough. I still think Jason dying was probably the single most important thing to happen to Batman since Bruce parents died, and i believe his death was ultimately very valuable, regardless of the reasons that made it happen. I think if they knew back then what they know now, they still would have killed him just because of this.

----------


## Aioros22

> I personally believe batman is enriched by having a robin and disagree with Starlin. I also believe that batman and robin are good enough concepts to exist independently.


Agreed. 




> The office disagreed tho, which is why they sought a new robin so fast, they wanted what the character brought and there were obviously also economical reasons behind it. Robin was popular.


Agreed. But even before the actual death is interesting to note that disagreement even before the backlash and consequent fix. It`s like some writers just knew that Robin is not only popular but essential. 




> To this day i think batman refuses to acknowledge Jason is alive. So do most of his writers, it is a bit jarring, but that big was the impact of jasons death on the batman mythos. And they refuse to let go of the character development that his death brought.


Can you expand on this? It seems you`re going a bit meta considering they obviously have, not to mention his big use in spreading media, since.  




> As i said, i dont think killing a character to sell books should be seen as dirty, especially if its taken advantage of to make good stories and make the characters even more interesting. This is a point ill always defend, even if a character i particularly fancy gets axed, tell a good story. I might not like it or even keep following the book, but i wont hate you for it or think it was dirty.


I understand, but it`s not the killing. It`s the agenda and office backstages. They weren`t natural as they tend to be. 




> I think what got Tim accepted by almost everyone was that he was clearly less capable than jason, this softened the blow when Tim came, also that Tim had a deep respect for both Jason, and the Robin legacy, which reflected a lot of jasons fans thoughts at the time. Tim came not to replace him, but to honor him in a way, or at least that was what the narrative was in the book. It was well handled.


Well, that`s in-story. I mean a bit on how it was handled and though out. They paired him with Dick right on, so the first could pass the torch directly. And while a few writers did use Jason`s example respectfully well towards Tim as you mention, particularly in the Grant-Breygfole-Aparo stories, some (most I seem to recall) others didn`t. And in that case, it was obvious what the point was. 

Again, not a single knock on Tim as a character or worthyness as Robin. I`m talking of backstage antics.

----------


## Lhynn

> Can you expand on this? It seems you`re going a bit meta considering they obviously have, not to mention his big use in spreading media, since.


His robin uniform is still at the batcave, jason is still a cautionary tale, we even saw on this week trinity batman lamenting his death. And i dont need to remind you that he didnt think of Damian, someone who has died more recently and arguably hit bruce harder. 




> I understand, but it`s not the killing. It`s the agenda and office backstages. They weren`t natural as they tend to be.


There will always be backstage talk and agenda pushing, there will always be someone that doesnt want something to happen and someone that does, especially with a property like batman, that has several publications and several writers per publication. Its as natural as most are with marvel and DC.




> others didn`t.


When did this happen? Jason was always treated with reverence up until he was trying to murder Tim i seem to recall.

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## Aioros22

> Yep, the respect for Jason and Dick that was shown with Tim's introduction really worked to his advantage. I still think Tim had one of the best character introductions in comics since the Silver Age. It felt so natural, transitioning from LPoD to his development in the main Bat-Books to the Robin minis, and concluding with his massively popular solo book. They took small steps that all succeeded, instead of trying and failing to build him up slowly and then shoving him down everyone's throats like they do nowadays.


I enjoyed that, particularly the moments of instropection when "talking" with Jason. The Grant and Breygfole era is dear to me. But alas, we are talking of a great creative team here.

----------


## Aioros22

> His robin uniform is still at the batcave, jason is still a cautionary tale, we even saw on this week trinity batman lamenting his death. And i dont need to remind you that he didnt think of Damian, someone who has died more recently and arguably hit bruce harder


At this point, everyone`s Robin uniform is on display. Tim`s on display. Dick`s on display (and just seen on a flashnack on last issue of RATHO in the opening sequence). I`m not sure the Trinity title is supposed to be on line with the rest of Rebirth in terms of continuity but sure, a few writers may prefer the cautionary tale as you say. But most seem have moved on. It`s there when Jason and Bruce are in the same room because it helped shaped them but they don`t dwell on it, they use it to make them progress. 





> There will always be backstage talk and agenda pushing, there will always be someone that doesnt want something to happen and someone that does, especially with a property like batman, that has several publications and several authors per publication. Its as natural as most are with marvel and DC


I haven`t read about a particular window of time in a franchise being this contraditory and controversial when handling said titles in both Marvel or DC. I believe there are other examples, but they aren`t the accepted normalcy. I don`t think, nay have I ever read about it, that the death of Jean Grey (which wasn`t that far behind in terms of relevancy or history) was handled like that and I`m sure there were writers who disagreed with the thing. Well, there`s Superman dying too...which also felt pretty much another stunt to spark more "supers" around with the rest of the game. 

Batman kind of feels a especific property because it was singlehandely the one that gained the most with the whole realistic take and subquent "Grim and gritty" phase that washed over the mainstream publishing since the late 70`s. So we get this phase where both takes (Batman and a Batman and Robin) are being experimented and sucessfully so. I don`t think they had any natural clear direction at that time. They were trying what could work and some of it clashed. 




> When did this happen? Jason was always treated with reverence up until he was trying to murder Tim i seem to recall.


I`m thinking of stories like the one during Underworld Unleashed where a Jason in hell shows up. I don`t recall if it end up being a ruse  but it showed how some writers were simply interested in pushing the angle of Jason as the failure and little else to take the easy route with Tim. 

I know you defend he had his own fault in the wake of his death, and truly enough, he also did. What I dont subscrive is that he did it just because. He made a decision to save a life at a cost but I don`t feel a good deal of writers always made that appearant to readers over the years.

----------


## Lhynn

> At this point, everyone`s Robin uniform is on display. Tim`s on display. Dick`s on display (and just seen on a flashnack on last issue of RATHO in the opening sequence). I`m not sure the Trinity title is supposed to be on line with the rest of Rebirth in terms of continuity but sure, a few writers may prefer the cautionary tale as you say. But most seem have moved on. It`s there when Jason and Bruce are in the same room because it helped shaped them but they don`t dwell on it, they use it to make them progress.


I meant the shrine, the one that seems to get broken every time something bad happens to a robin.




> I haven`t read about a particular window of time in a franchise being this contraditory and controversial when handling said titles in both Marvel or DC. I believe there are other examples, but they aren`t the accepted normalcy. I don`t think, nay have I ever read about it, that the death of Jean Grey (which wasn`t that far behind in terms of relevancy or history) was handled like that and I`m sure there were writers who disagreed with the thing. Well, there`s Superman dying too...which also felt pretty much another stunt to spark more "supers" around with the rest of the game.


Its fairly common stuff, tho i will grant you that Jasons death wasnt a publicity stunt or to develop characters, but simply to get rid of him because of the agenda of the writer at the time.




> I`m thinking of stories like the one during Underworld Unleashed where a Jason in hell shows up. I don`t recall if it end up being a ruse  but it showed how some writers were simply interested in pushing the angle of Jason as the failure and little else to take the easy route with Tim. 
> I know you defend he had his own fault in the wake of his death, and truly enough, he also did. What I dont subscrive is that he did it just because. He made a decision to save a life at a cost but I don`t feel a good deal of writers always made that appearant to readers over the years.


Oh, he didnt do it just because, he had every reason to do it, yet i feel that it wasnt so out of character that he didnt think things through, it was after all an emotional time and he let his emotions get the better of him before. I think the angle of him being a failure as robin back then works for the character tho, its the source of a lot of what makes Jason stories appealing and why we want to see him succeed. Of course no one but him and maybe the joker sees it like that, Bruce sees it as his own failure, Tim though he was a great man and someone to admire.

The whole thing is interesting because Bruce was the adult there, its only natural to assume that it was his fault, he failed to supervise him, to keep him safe, but then again, Robin is suposed to be an existence that batman doesnt need to worry about, hes there to help, not to hinder, therefore why Jason sees it as his own failure.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But fans didn't like Jason that much. They had good reason to get rid of him. They didn't do it perfectly but it was still understandable.


My problem with the whole thing is the _way_ they chose to go about it. They wanted to remove Robin from the "Batman and Robin" equation because they wanted a solo Batman. That happens and has in fact been happening in recent years with Snyder's run on the title. There were lots of ways for them to have gone about this but instead of chosing something sensible like creating a Batman and Robin title or some such they went for the most gimmicky and controversial way to "get rid of the Robin fans hate so badly". They couldn't just kill him off, oh no they had to pull a stunt to seemingly justify the decision they had already reached. To me it felt like they were covering their asses with the stunt. It was bad business.

----------


## godisawesome

> My problem with the whole thing is the _way_ they chose to go about it. They wanted to remove Robin from the "Batman and Robin" equation because they wanted a solo Batman. That happens and has in fact been happening in recent years with Snyder's run on the title. There were lots of ways for them to have gone about this but instead of chosing something sensible like creating a Batman and Robin title or some such they went for the most gimmicky and controversial way to "get rid of the Robin fans hate so badly". They couldn't just kill him off, oh no they had to pull a stunt to seemingly justify the decision they had already reached. To me it felt like they were covering their asses with the stunt. It was bad business.


The weird part about the Batoffice is that each time they pull a stunt like killing a Robin-- _any_ Robin or even a Batman-- there's still usually some extremely good fallout stemming from it at some point in publication history, whereas other series get killed or permanently fractured by such decisions. A Death In The Family lead both to Tim Drake as Robin (where the biggest conceptual difference was trying to make him a spinoff as opposed to a sidekick) and Under the Hood. Knightfall gave us Bane. Forever Evil lead to Grayson. Presumably, 'TEC will lead to something better for Tim than the New 52. It's Steph and Damian's deaths that feel the most tacked on; the former because it was clearly an attempt to bury the character (Jason's death at least was heroic and had some dignity to his last actions) and the latter felt more like Morrison insisting *** couldn't play with his toy.

Though I will say, I did love some of the reverence they had Tim display towards Jason for years. I kind of wish that if they changed anything in Rebirth aside from heading back towards a Post-Crisis take on Tim, it would be to tackle how Tim handled Jason's return mentally.

----------


## gwhh

His Official Stats in 2004:

 

I wonder when Tim will hit his growth spur.  He still 5 5 here and Step Brown out weights him by 4 pounds!

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## JasonTodd428

> The weird part about the Batoffice is that each time they pull a stunt like killing a Robin-- _any_ Robin or even a Batman-- there's still usually some extremely good fallout stemming from it at some point in publication history, whereas other series get killed or permanently fractured by such decisions. A Death In The Family lead both to Tim Drake as Robin (where the biggest conceptual difference was trying to make him a spinoff as opposed to a sidekick) and Under the Hood. Knightfall gave us Bane. Forever Evil lead to Grayson. Presumably, 'TEC will lead to something better for Tim than the New 52. It's Steph and Damian's deaths that feel the most tacked on; the former because it was clearly an attempt to bury the character (Jason's death at least was heroic and had some dignity to his last actions) and the latter felt more like Morrison insisting *** couldn't play with his toy.
> 
> Though I will say, I did love some of the reverence they had Tim display towards Jason for years. I kind of wish that if they changed anything in Rebirth aside from heading back towards a Post-Crisis take on Tim, it would be to tackle how Tim handled Jason's return mentally.


I won't deny that all of those have lead to good fallout for those involved however the way Jason's death was handled outside of the actual comic itself left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt it downplayed the actual heroic-ness of his death and threw the dignity of his last actions out the window. Subsequent years of stories wherein Jason is treated as a cautionary tale or where he is said to have been a "bad Robin" only help to exacerbate this idea IMO. These days all people focus on is how he was "voted by fans to die in a phone pole" and/or that he was a "bad Robin" not that he had "died attempting to save his mother from the bomb which killed him". It is a complete disservice to the character that has its origin in that damned stunt they pulled back when they killed him off.

I did like how Tim treated Jason's memory with reverence and I do think that's where the idea of him adopting the name "Red Robin" from the get go in the N52 is a reference to. (Whatever other problems his N52 orgin had I did like that little bit.) I have also always been curious what his mental reaction to Jason's return was back in the Pre-FP days.

----------


## Aahz

> I`m thinking of stories like the one during Underworld Unleashed where a Jason in hell shows up. I don`t recall if it end up being a ruse  but it showed how some writers were simply interested in pushing the angle of Jason as the failure and little else to take the easy route with Tim.


That was Batman: Demon, in Under World Unleashed Neron offered Bruce to bring Jason back to live. 

Btw. Jason was also one of the heroic souls Neron wanted to use in Deadman Dead Again to gain power, and in Green Arrow Vol 3 #7 Jason was shown to be in heaven.

----------


## Lhynn

> I have also always been curious what his mental reaction to Jason's return was back in the Pre-FP days.


Bitterness, deep dissapointment, anger, it basically defined their relationship going forward. Tim used to worship him, kept him in a pedestal, felt hed never be as great as Jason. Then he was confronted by an angry and resentful brat. I think this was one of the big reasons Tim became so jaded.

----------


## godisawesome

> I won't deny that all of those have lead to good fallout for those involved however the way Jason's death was handled outside of the actual comic itself left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt it downplayed the actual heroic-ness of his death and threw the dignity of his last actions out the window. Subsequent years of stories wherein Jason is treated as a cautionary tale or where he is said to have been a "bad Robin" only help to exacerbate this idea IMO. These days all people focus on is how he was "voted by fans to die in a phone pole" and/or that he was a "bad Robin" not that he had "died attempting to save his mother from the bomb which killed him". It is a complete disservice to the character that has its origin in that damned stunt they pulled back when they killed him off.
> 
> I did like how Tim treated Jason's memory with reverence and *I do think that's where the idea of him adopting the name "Red Robin" from the get go in the N52 is a reference to.* (Whatever other problems his N52 orgin had I did like that little bit.) I have also always been curious what his mental reaction to Jason's return was back in the Pre-FP days.


I've loved that idea as well, but to me it was so perfunctorily handled in the New 52 that any advantage it would have had was squandered, and then the possible flaws of the idea (especially having him _only_ ever serve as Red Robin) were exacerbated by Lobdell's (or editorial's) decision to simultaneously portray Tim as a relative newcomer but also as overly-skilled and equipped, leading to him coming off more as a pompous jackass vainly taking a new-but-derivative name more to establish his own legacy than anything else. The combination of decisions about how to portray Tim effectively erased any attempt at making it sweet; if Tim never knew Jason, hadn't served under his shadow for any real amount of time, and had no reason to see a real kinship with him, then taking on the codename Red Robin is a selfish decision instead of a somber one.

It's why I'll still argue the YouTube series Young Justice Abridged handled the idea far better and kind of put the creative decisions of the New 52 to shame. There, the fans doing the show have Tim established as Robin first, make it clear he does ponder on Jason's impact on his life as Robin, have a ceremonial acknowledgement and passing of the torch from a seemingly dead Red Hood to Tim, and manage to actually milk genuine pathos and empathy out of having Tim change his moniker.

_That's_ how you do something like that. It's pathetic how New 52 Teen Titans, with multiple oppurtunities to retell Tim's origin (counting the Zero issue and the Secret Origins one) couldn't manage what some fans could do with spliced footage and a parody series.



> Bitterness, deep dissapointment, anger, it basically defined their relationship going forward. Tim used to worship him, kept him in a pedestal, felt hed never be as great as Jason. Then he was confronted by an angry and resentful brat. I think this was one of the big reasons Tim became so jaded.


Geoff Johns is a great writer, but in retrospect, this issue always felt more like Johns taking a very shallow plot for a great premise and making a giant filler story. It probably would have been better handled in the Robin solo as a mini-arc. Heck, FabNic managed a compact but respectable take on Jason v Tim in his Robin run. Their interactions had an element of regret and somberness that really worked.

----------


## Lhynn

> Geoff Johns is a great writer, but in retrospect, this issue always felt more like Johns taking a very shallow plot for a great premise and making a giant filler story. It probably would have been better handled in the Robin solo as a mini-arc. Heck, FabNic managed a compact but respectable take on Jason v Tim in his Robin run. Their interactions had an element of regret and somberness that really worked.


Couldnt agree more. But the broad strokes are still there, Tim is still incredibly disappointed, and bitter over a person he used to idolize becoming a murderer. Fabians take later on drew from this meeting, when both had time to think about it all, when Jasons place was better defined.
While i think Fabian would have written their first meeting differently, and probably better, by virtue of understanding the characters that much better, it still would have played many of the same notes.

----------


## Red obin

Just ordered #1-7 and #14-17 for only £5! This is great because despite reading all the issues digitally and being a masisve red robin fan the only physical issue i have is #10.
1-1.jpg1.jpgRed_Robin_Vol_1_1A.jpg

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## Lhynn

> Just ordered #1-7 and #14-17 for only £5! This is great because despite reading all the issues digitally and being a masisve red robin fan the only physical issue i have is #10.
> 1-1.jpg1.jpgRed_Robin_Vol_1_1A.jpg


 find myself at least partially reading those stories every two months, they are great, and really fun to reread.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Oh my, now I know where Tim's Rebirth logo comes from. 
Robin_043_a.jpg

Robin_043_b.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> Geoff Johns is a great writer, but in retrospect, this issue always felt more like Johns taking a very shallow plot for a great premise and making a giant filler story. It probably would have been better handled in the Robin solo as a mini-arc.


 I would like to see the new 52 take on this, preferably by a writer who has both decent grasp on both of them. They were allways presented as being close in the new 52, but the develpment of their relation is kind of missing.






> Heck, FabNic managed a compact but respectable take on Jason v Tim in his Robin run. Their interactions had an element of regret and somberness that really worked.


Jason was imo really ooc in the FabNic version.

----------


## godisawesome

Jason didn't yet _have_ a solidified personality when FabNic wrote him: Winick defined the character as an exceptionally antagonistic vigilante with some nuance, but was still using him mostly as a conflict creator for other characters, Johns had mostly had his Jason defined by RAGE! and meta-commentary on Jason's legacy, and his other main appearances had been part of an ensemble in frickin' Countdown. FabNic wrote Jason as an antagonistic vigilante a la Winick, even swapping out "drug lord" for "gang overlord", and had Jason try and make a genuine offer to Tim from the standpoint of "Bruce is gone, this city needs something like this to remain stable." and at the end of the arc, Tim had found some truth in Jason's statements and modified his plan and let him out so he could hear Bruce's will. Jason's entire characterization in that arc is basically a preview of the stuff that mellowed him out in the New 52 and made him a successful monthly character. His tactics in the fight are the ones worth arguing about; FabNic clearly wanted Jason to job a bit to Tim and thus played up the more direct fighter and gunman portrayal, but still gave Jason the victory between the two so the fight would have to end in interference.

The problem with the portrayal is that it was immediately followed by a melodramatic portrayal of Jason by Tony Daniel and then Grant Morrison.

FabNic wrote the basis in Robin for the stuff that Lobdell tried to do in the New 52, 'cept he did it in a way that made sense with Tim first and wrote consistently well instead of putting out drek thanks to editorial demands.

----------


## Aahz

His plan included iirc to use kids in war against the police as cannon fodder or something like that, and that is imo way outside of what Jason would do even by Winiks portrait, especially if you can easily modify the plan and reach the same without killing. 
The whole antagonistic vigilante concept is imo only interesting when he is really able to achieve stuff the good guys can't achieve (or not as efficiently). Diplomats Son was not an interesting story because Jason may have killed someone, but because there was no other way to stop this guy than killing him.



And than there was this line that basically implied that Jason is just a dumb thug which is also not really in line with his portrait by Winik (or with his portrait as Robin).


But I have to admit that it was way better than Tony Daniel and Grant Morrison, but thats not exactly a great feat.

And btw. Countdown plot is crap, but it had actually some good stuff with Jason at least in fist three quaters of the event (unfortunatly they messed it up in the end).

----------


## Lhynn

> Oh my, now I know where Tim's Rebirth logo comes from. 
> Robin_043_a.jpg
> 
> Robin_043_b.jpg


Thats actually a pretty great find, someone should ask Tynion if it was intended.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

What was that guys name? Tim's best friend from the Dixon series. I'd love for him to come back, he was really down to earth but still pretty smart. Good pairing for someone like Tim who is crazy intelligent but sometimes gets to wrapped up in things.

----------


## Frontier

> What was that guys name? Tim's best friend from the Dixon series. I'd love for him to come back, he was really down to earth but still pretty smart. Good pairing for someone like Tim who is crazy intelligent but sometimes gets to wrapped up in things.


Do you mean Ives  :Smile: ?

----------


## Atlanta96

> What was that guys name? Tim's best friend from the Dixon series. I'd love for him to come back, he was really down to earth but still pretty smart. Good pairing for someone like Tim who is crazy intelligent but sometimes gets to wrapped up in things.


You mean Ives? Yeah, I think he was even in Red Robin a couple times.

----------


## twincast

Tim actually calls him by his name in the last panel posted, so...

----------


## Lhynn

Ives was a great character, Dixon sure knows how to write teenagers better than anybody else in the industry.

----------


## godisawesome

Considering the way technology has updated, Ives could be reintroduced as a friend Tim keeps in contact with by playing online video games with him. That way you could include him in issues where Tim is a world away or still in hiding, and it would embrace the idea that they're geeky friends who love to talk.

----------


## Lhynn

> Considering the way technology has updated, Ives could be reintroduced as a friend Tim keeps in contact with by playing online video games with him. That way you could include him in issues where Tim is a world away or still in hiding, and it would embrace the idea that they're geeky friends who love to talk.


Hm, dont really like the idea, Tim never struck me as a gamer, while he did love PnP he had to quit that, he was leading a double life already, little time for hobbies and even less of an inclination to play them considering none of them could offer even a fraction of the excitement.
I do see tim using social networks to keep contact. But his friendship with Ives was always more real, meeting him like this, during the day, in public spaces, doing normal stuff. It created a very strong contrast betwen his two lives that was very interesting and added a lot of depth to the character.

----------


## Aahz

> Hm, dont really like the idea, Tim never struck me as a gamer, while he did love PnP he had to quit that, he was leading a double life already, little time for hobbies and even less of an inclination to play them considering none of them could offer even a fraction of the excitement.


In one of his earliest cases as Robin he and Batman were iirc going against kid that let somehow computer games become reality and and they were only able to beat it due to Tims gaming skills.

----------


## Lhynn

> In one of his earliest cases as Robin he and Batman were iirc going against kid that let somehow computer games become reality and and they were only able to beat it due to Tims gaming skills.


Oh? Then im wrong
Could you tell me which one?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I like the idea of Tim occasionally playing video games. He'd be the kind of guy who would be into and would absolutely wreck at something like Rainbow Six: Siege.

----------


## dominus

> Ives was a great character, Dixon sure knows how to write teenagers better than anybody else in the industry.


I'm curious as to whether or not he still can. He's gone pretty much full Nugent these days.

----------


## Frontier

> I like the idea of Tim occasionally playing video games. He'd be the kind of guy who would be into and would absolutely wreck at something like Rainbow Six: Siege.


Could be one of the few things he and Damian have in common (though so far it looks like Damian prefers arcades)  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> I'm curious as to whether or not he still can. He's gone pretty much full Nugent these days.


What the heck is Dixon doing these days?

----------


## dominus

> What the heck is Dixon doing these days?


Check his twitter feed for his various rants. He's also hawking a political graphic novel, as well as doing podcasts with Milo Y.

----------


## Lhynn

> Check his twitter feed for his various rants. He's also hawking a political graphic novel, as well as doing podcasts with Milo Y.


Hes always been a conservative, dont see whats wrong with that.

----------


## Shriveling_memo

When did change his costume? Don't follow him that much, last I saw he was in that red robin costume, not a robin costume with a double r on it

----------


## Frontier

> When did change his costume? Don't follow him that much, last I saw he was in that red robin costume, not a robin costume with a double r on it


He started wearing the new suit with Rebirth  :Smile: .

----------


## twincast

> Hes always been a conservative, dont see whats wrong with that.


Well, for starters, there's different degrees/types of conservative, and since his last DC work Chuck's sadly gone off the deep end into Conspiracyville.

----------


## Lhynn

> Well, for starters, there's different degrees/types of conservative, and since his last DC work Chuck's sadly gone off the deep end into Conspiracyville.


With the amount of dirt on hillary on the last elections, the mails, the podesta brothers, pizzagate and all that, who could blame him.

Anyway do you think Tims role on rebirth will be covered on detective? or will we get a new book called rebirth once all the players are in place?

----------


## KrustyKid

> With the amount of dirt on hillary on the last elections, the mails, the podesta brothers, pizzagate and all that, who could blame him.
> 
> Anyway do you think Tims role on rebirth will be covered on detective? or will we get a new book called rebirth once all the players are in place?


My guess is it will be in another book. Being that this 'rebirth' event is supposed to be big.

----------


## twincast

> With the amount of dirt on hillary on the last elections, the mails, the podesta brothers, pizzagate and all that, who could blame him.


None of which substantiated by any reputable source. But please let's not turn this into yet another political thread.

Edit: By "none of which" I naturally only specifically meant all the severe accusations/allegations that go beyond basic run of the mill U.S. politics.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Could be one of the few things he and Damian have in common (though so far it looks like Damian prefers arcades) .


The thought of Tim and Damian playing tactical shooters together is just wonderful.

----------


## Lucas 35

I still can not believe there are people who take the pizzagate  seriously

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Lets try not to discuss Dixon's politics. We'll just end up having a political argument and there's no point in it here.

----------


## Lhynn

> None of which substantiated by any reputable source. But please let's not turn this into yet another political thread.
> 
> Edit: By "none of which" I naturally only specifically meant all the severe accusations/allegations that go beyond basic run of the mill U.S. politics.


Name a source that is still reputable tho. The media sold out, we saw it clearly with the last elections, blatantly trying to manipulate the popular vote with misinformation, trickery and deceit.
Id trust a well sourced blogger over the new york times any day.

But WWw is right, theres nothing to gain by discussing that here.

----------


## Atlanta96

I read 6 DC comics today, and 4 of them mentioned Tim. It's clear that DC writers are obsessed with him so can they please bring him back already? Next Batman arc, please?

----------


## josai21

> I read 6 DC comics today, and 4 of them mentioned Tim. It's clear that DC writers are obsessed with him so can they please bring him back already? Next Batman arc, please?


Which 4? 
I'm trying to figure out what to read to keep up with Rebirth and everything leading to it. What's the "reading list" for rebirth so far?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Which 4? 
> I'm trying to figure out what to read to keep up with Rebirth and everything leading to it. What's the "reading list" for rebirth so far?


'Tec and Teen Titans from this week, Trinity and Nightwing from last week. Mostly brief mentions, but it's clear that Tim is on a lot of people's minds.

----------


## Lhynn

Drakedom.jpg
Found this on twitter a couple days ago, what do you guys think? better than the cowl?

----------


## nj06

> Drakedom.jpg
> Found this on twitter a couple days ago, what do you guys think? better than the cowl?


I like this look. I never liked the cowl for Tim and think the domino mask works best for him.

----------


## The Whovian

> I read 6 DC comics today, and 4 of them mentioned Tim. It's clear that DC writers are obsessed with him so can they please bring him back already? Next Batman arc, please?


No doubt. Bring him back! Probably won't though for another year or so though.  :Frown:

----------


## The Whovian

> Drakedom.jpg
> Found this on twitter a couple days ago, what do you guys think? better than the cowl?


Sweet! I like it!

----------


## Atlanta96

> No doubt. Bring him back! Probably won't though for another year or so though.


The longer it takes, the longer characters will still be mentioning him constantly. He's in limbo and he still has more impact on the Bat-books than the entire New 52 era.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I found this on amazon: 
https://www.amazon.com/Robin-Vol-4-C...keywords=robin

Finally, it seems they are going  to collect all Dixon stuff about Tim from A to Z.

----------


## Lhynn

Thats good news, its great stuff.

----------


## Lhynn

So not even a clue about when well know more about Tim? i heard something about a new crisis.

----------


## Caivu

> So not even a clue about when well know more about Tim? i heard something about a new crisis.


The word is that Mr. Oz going to play a big role during the first half of next year, so most likely sometime between January and June.

----------


## Lhynn

> The word is that Mr. Oz going to play a big role during the first half of next year, so most likely sometime between January and June.


Hopefully this means pre flashpoint Tim somewhere there.

----------


## Caivu

From 'Tec #946:

Tec946.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> From 'Tec #946:
> 
> Tec946.jpg


Sauce? I haven't seen a preview yet?

----------


## Caivu

> Sauce? I haven't seen a preview yet?


Tynion's Twitter. He got comps for this and the Holiday Special today.

Edit: Here.

----------


## millernumber1

Also, that looks like some Alvaro Martinez art (which makes me happy, since he's by far my favorite Tec artist).

----------


## Frontier

> From 'Tec #946:
> 
> Tec946.jpg


Now I'm just wondering what kind of Justice League stories Bruce has told Tim  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

Though I also have to wonder if Bruce was able to take every Robin to the Watchtower at some point...

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion's Twitter. He got comps for this and the Holiday Special today.
> 
> Edit: Here.


Ah, thanks! I take it back - it does look like Barrows. (Now I miss Martinez even more...  :Frown:

----------


## Atlanta96

> From 'Tec #946:
> 
> Tec946.jpg


It's a good thing Bruce doesn't really hate teams considering he's been on about 1,000 since his introduction. For a brooding loner he really gravitates towards groups of people.

Unrelated, that Holiday Special cover sucks. Lazy art, bad composition, zero humor or creativity, Damien front and center, Burnside Babs, Nu Wally, are these really the characters who should've gotten the cover spot?

----------


## Frontier

> It's a good thing Bruce doesn't really hate teams considering he's been on about 1,000 since his introduction. For a brooding loner he really gravitates towards groups of people.


And he has enough partners/sidekicks to take up residency in every room of Wayne Manor  :Wink: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> And he has enough partners/sidekicks to take up residency in every room of Wayne Manor .


Yeah, he sure does. Cause why give Bruce a reasonably sized supporting cast when you can give him a cast of millions?  :Smile:

----------


## Pohzee

> Now I'm just wondering what kind of Justice League stories Bruce has told Tim ?
> 
> Though I also have to wonder if Bruce was able to take every Robin to the Watchtower at some point...


Probably not many during his _very_ short stint of *Red Robin*.  :EEK!: 

I went back and reread 'Tec, and even though I still disliked the writing as a whole, Tim was written pretty well there minus all the over the top hacking. I just wish that they could have found a better way than fake "killing" him off.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Probably not many during his _very_ short stint of *Red Robin*. 
> 
> I went back and reread 'Tec, and even though I still disliked the writing as a whole, Tim was written pretty well there minus all the over the top hacking. I just wish that they could have found a better way than fake "killing" him off.


And right before at least 2 Bat-Family focused stories. If they wanted to re-integrate him into the Bat-books, his death should probably have come at a later time.

----------


## KrustyKid

So, any early guesses to what Tim's role will be in the DCU once he comes back?

----------


## thefiresky

> So, any early guesses to what Tim's role will be in the DCU once he comes back?


Nite Owl...

----------


## Digifiend

> So, any early guesses to what Tim's role will be in the DCU once he comes back?


Presumably he'd just resume as Red Robin. Due to time passing in his absence that university place of his will be gone.

----------


## Atlanta96

> So, any early guesses to what Tim's role will be in the DCU once he comes back?


Well, if everything was done perfectly...

He will rejoin the Bat-Family in time for the next major event, team up with the other Robins, and reclaim his place in the Bat-books for good. Then he'll start uncovering his secret past where he learns his true (Pre-Flashpoint) origin, and finally meets the real Bart Allen, Kon El, and Cassie Sandsmark. After playing a notable role in the Rebirth storyline, he forms a new Young Justice with his friends and becomes the new Nite Owl while also chilling with the Bat-Family in a 2nd series.

But that's just too perfect to happen  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

I kind of wish that Batman and Batwoman both leave Detective Comics for their own books, but the rest of the team stays, with a returned and Rebirthed Red Robin Tim acting as their strategist, though I don't know if I'd want him as field leader. Tim's best writing in a team dynamic, like in early Teen Titans and Young Justice, is as the brains behind operations without quite being the "captain." Superboy and Impulse operating under autonomy with Tim having to redirect them worked best, and he just acts better as reactive commander. He shouldn't be calling out attack formations or anything like that.

And still, my preferred outcome would be Tim eventually returning to his status quo from before Flashpoint; as an occasionally wandering vigilante who tries to play long games from behind the scenes against villains, even to the extent of having him once more tussling with Lynx and other "lesser" villains he wants to attack "greater" ones. However, I'd have his parents integrated into that scheme with Witness Protection. 

You see, as bad as Lobdell's New 52 origin for Tim is, there's a lot of potential in having his parents in Witness Protection. It provides Tim motivation to fight crime while keeping his parents alive, and heightens the tension both when he's with them (because they worry for him and he for them) and when he's away (what if he already said goodbye for the last time?). The issue with Lobdell's origin was the method and manner of the concept: having Tim stupidly (and trace-ably) hack Penguin's bank account so he could prove himself to Batman is an arrogantly stupid move, and one that makes the parents suffer for a son's mistakes while he gets rewarded with what he wanted. You know what would be better? Tim's parents witnessed Penguin commit a crime or caught him in a white collar crime, and that's why they're in WP. Boom! Same thing effected, but now Tim can approach crime fighting from a more humble standpoint, can still have his original origin, and the motivation to practice long-con tactics makes sense because he's trying to outfox Penguin.

----------


## Atlanta96

'Tec #946 had an excellent flashback scene featuring Tim at the beginning. I don't care what anyone says, I think Tynion does a great job making this character feel important. And while I'm excited for other writers to take on Rebirth Tim (a different character from Bew 52 Tim at this point) I think Tynion should continue to use him as well. He pretty much single handedly saved Tim from the Bew 52 years.

----------


## Dataweaver

Absolutely!  Tim's most amazing trait isn't his detective skills or his tactical prowess; it's what was featured in that flashback: he's a visionary, with the ability to see the potential in things. Were he still around, I think it would only be a matter of time before he started bringing the We Are Robin kids into the fold and fully implementing the vision he describes in this flashback. 

And yeah, that's also what's been missing from the N52 Tim.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Absolutely!  Tim's most amazing trait isn't his detective skills or his tactical prowess; it's what was featured in that flashback: he's a visionary, with the ability to see the potential in things. Were he still around, *I think it would only be a matter of time before he started bringing the We Are Robin kids into the fold and fully implementing the vision he describes in this flashback. 
> *
> And yeah, that's also what's been missing from the N52 Tim.


Not really, if DC had interest in the concept then they'd have had King and Snyder using it in their books especially due to the Duke connection. Tim doesn't have anything to do with them and likely never will.

----------


## Dataweaver

You miss my point. I'm not talking about what the writers will do; I'm talking about what Tim would do.

----------


## godisawesome

It also resembles the formation of Neon Knights in the old Robin solo and Red Robin series. I really like the idea that _that's_ the kind of organization Tim's more ambitious about, especially compared to a regular superhero team. Organizations as cohesive and massive as the ideas he describes in today's 'Tec are truly more strategic than tactical; there's a stronger focus on logistical advantages, diplomacy (almost like a "hearts and minds" campaign), and on subverting criminal enterprises at the ground level, which fits the idea of Tim thinking big picture.

I even like how the vision can seem a bit invasive and imperialistic, since those are closer to the flaws I want Tim to have than what the New 52 gave him.

----------


## Dataweaver

Agreed on all counts. I could even see him renaming the We Are Robin kids as the Neon Knights.

----------


## Atlanta96

I'd rather just see him reorganize Young Justice and work to make it a formidable team. Now that he's evolved a bit from his late 90s characterization it would be really interesting to see him take a large scale approach to leading (or at least guiding) Young Justice. His leadership of TT was never that impressive even when his character was good, so we have yet to see the full extent of his abilities in the context of a team.

----------


## Dataweaver

While I'd love to see a Rebirth version of Young Justice, I wouldn't want Tim leading it. First, Tim isn't a leader; he's an organizer. Second, YJ works better as a small circle of friends than as a massive organization; it should be where Tim goes when he wants to hang out with his friends, not an organization he spends time managing. Yes, even if YJ gets reimagined incorporate the TV show's “JL farm team” concept. Heck, _especially_ if they do that.

----------


## Atlanta96

> While I'd love to see a Rebirth version of Young Justice, I wouldn't want Tim leading it. First, Tim isn't a leader; he's an organizer. Second, YJ works better as a small circle of friends than as a massive organization; it should be where Tim goes when he wants to hang out with his friends, not an organization he spends time managing. Yes, even if YJ gets reimagined incorporate the TV show's “JL farm team” concept. Heck, _especially_ if they do that.


I dunno, I kind of feel like YJ needs a bit more organization if it's to compete with TT. I think it can still have the spirit of the old series even if the stakes/goals are a bit higher this time. A team that's JUST some friends who get together to fight crime might pale in comparison to the premise and stories of TT. They can still do the friends part, definitely. But I think it needs more than that in this climate.

----------


## Dataweaver

Agreed. But that something more would come from the Justice League's involvement in the team, much like they play an active role with the kids on the first season of the TV series. YJ is not the right place to try to showcase Tim's visionary and organizational talents, largely because the other kids wouldn't take kindly to him trying boss them around, and largely because the League would be handling the management duties.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I think you could put Tim into a Dick Grayson like role for Young Justice, as he was in season 2. 

As far as field leader goes, I'd still want that to be a better characterized Wonder Girl. Their dynamic in David's young justice was great.

----------


## oasis1313

> So, any early guesses to what Tim's role will be in the DCU once he comes back?


He'll be the Be-All and End-All of everything, as usual.  Back just in time to receive the Nobel Prizes for Physics, Chemistry, and Whirled Peas.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Regarding YJ I think it works well for a younger set of heroes and a smaller group. While I would love to see the old group come back and connect with it, I do think that It should really go Titans (for all the older Teen Titans members) Teen Titans (for all the Teen older teenage heroes) and YJ (for all the younger set). Tim is better at organizing, more of an oracle role or as a sort of eyes and ears set for the team. Cassie is more the field leader type to me honestly. 

As for where he's going to be after he comes back. I have a suspicion that we'll see him either leading or working as part of co leadership for a group in Gotham. I would say it's going to come down to being a sort of Titans group for Gotham more then anything else. He's probably going to work with Duke, Harper, Damian, Steph, Cass, and Gotham Girl for the most part directly.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Regarding YJ I think it works well for a younger set of heroes and a smaller group. While I would love to see the old group come back and connect with it, I do think that It should really go Titans (for all the older Teen Titans members) Teen Titans (for all the Teen older teenage heroes) and YJ (for all the younger set). Tim is better at organizing, more of an oracle role or as a sort of eyes and ears set for the team. Cassie is more the field leader type to me honestly. 
> 
> As for where he's going to be after he comes back. I have a suspicion that we'll see him either leading or working as part of co leadership for a group in Gotham. I would say it's going to come down to being a sort of Titans group for Gotham more then anything else. He's probably going to work with Duke, Harper, Damian, Steph, Cass, and Gotham Girl for the most part directly.


I could see something like this.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I could see something like this.


I could too, minus Duke and Harper who are garbage and need to be discontinued. I don't think I could enjoy a Tim story that featured him interacting with them no matter what.

----------


## Magmaster12

I agree although I've mainly felt Duke's role is basically identical, to Tim it almost feels like Duke got special priority.
Not sure why people want Harper back her arc ended I'm perfectly fine with her never showing up again.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I agree although I've mainly felt Duke's role is basically identical, to Tim it almost feels like Duke got special priority.
> Not sure why people want Harper back her arc ended I'm perfectly fine with her never showing up again.


Thank you. A lot of people don't think Duke and Tim are that similar, which just leaves me scratching my head. Same mild mannered, cerebral personality, same slightly awkward sense of humor, even his origin is somewhat similar.

I think in the long run Tim will overtake Duke, he's the better character and he gets more love from fans and writers. Duke and Haroer are only around because Scott Snyder created them.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Duke and Harper need to be forgotten as soon as possible.

----------


## Dataweaver

But, but… diversity! We gotta have more blacks and bisexuals, at all costs!  (Personally, I'm waiting for the story arc where Batwing takes over for Bruce as Batman.)

----------


## Atlanta96

> But, but… diversity! We gotta have more blacks and bisexuals, at all costs!  (Personally, I'm waiting for the story arc where Batwing takes over for Bruce as Batman.)


Yeah, funny how the "everyone hates Duke because prejudice" crowd ignores our love of Batwing, and Batwoman, and the entirely queer Gotham Sirens, and Renee Montoya. Almost like Duke and Harper are just bad characters or something.

----------


## ross61

> Thank you. A lot of people don't think Duke and Tim are that similar, which just leaves me scratching my head. Same mild mannered, cerebral personality, same slightly awkward sense of humor, even his origin is somewhat similar.
> 
> I think in the long run Tim will overtake Duke, he's the better character and he gets more love from fans and writers. Duke and Haroer are only around because Scott Snyder created them.


We can't live in aworld where all three of them exist and thrive?

----------


## godisawesome

I think we can, though getting the complaining to stop requires Tim getting a book again. It's similar to the Damian vs Tim fights, or the Babs vs Steph and Cass fights. A fan favorite is temporarily benched while alternatives are still being established.

----------


## Atlanta96

> We can't live in aworld where all three of them exist and thrive?


No not really. At this point it's clear that efforts to make those guys "happen" cause nothing but harm to the rest of the Family. And already struggling characters like Tim and Steph are harmed the most. If there was any reason at all for those new blokes to exist then there might be a case, but there really isn't so...

Anyway, guesses on how long until Tim returns? 2 months? 6 months? My guess is at the very end of I Am Bane which will be in about 3 months I think. Unless a Christmas miracle brings him back even sooner  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> No not really. At this point it's clear that efforts to make those guys "happen" cause nothing but harm to the rest of the Family. And already struggling characters like Tim and Steph are harmed the most. If there was any reason at all for those new blokes to exist then there might be a case, but there really isn't so...
> 
> Anyway, guesses on how long until Tim returns? 2 months? 6 months? My guess is at the very end of I Am Bane which will be in about 3 months I think. Unless a Christmas miracle brings him back even sooner


Longer. I'm guessing about seven months to a year, before he makes a full return that is.

----------


## Magmaster12

> Thank you. A lot of people don't think Duke and Tim are that similar, which just leaves me scratching my head. Same mild mannered, cerebral personality, same slightly awkward sense of humor, even his origin is somewhat similar.


You forgot Duke's role in Zero Year the role could have been replaced Tim, something else that annoys the heck out me since we never see him while Jason got an entire tie in issue devoted to him in his own book but nope gotta keep Post 52 Tim as boring as possible.

As for when Tim will return probably not until whatever DC is setting up to be over I'm personally expecting a REALLY stupid rationality for why he was kidnapped outside of dating Steph again.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You forgot Duke's role in Zero Year the role could have been replaced Tim, something else that annoys the heck out me since we never see him while Jason got an entire tie in issue devoted to him in his own book but nope gotta keep Post 52 Tim as boring as possible.
> 
> As for when Tim will return probably not until whatever DC is setting up to be over I'm personally expecting a REALLY stupid rationality for why he was kidnapped outside of dating Steph again.


I have higher expectations for the return. Rebirth has been mostly hits so far, I'm willing to assume they know what they're doing with the overall story and it's numerous tie-ins. My main concerns are for the role he'll play in the Bat-books once it's all over. 'Tec Tim was well handled but that's just a start.

 I mean, he still hasn't interacted with any other Robins since Rebirth and his crappy New 52 origin is still in place. Easily fixable things, but they haven't happened yet so, yeah. Still worried.

----------


## Aahz

> You forgot Duke's role in Zero Year the role could have been replaced Tim, something else that annoys the heck out me since we never see him while Jason got an entire tie in issue devoted to him in his own book but nope gotta keep Post 52 Tim as boring as possible.


Thats the problem with only beeing in ateam book like Titans opposed to RHatO. RHatO has much smaller cast and Jason is clearly the lead character, a book like Teen Titans can't make constantly make Tie ins for just one charcter.

----------


## ross61

> *No not really. At this point it's clear that efforts to make those guys "happen" cause nothing but harm to the rest of the Family. And already struggling characters like Tim and Steph are harmed the most.* If there was any reason at all for those new blokes to exist then there might be a case, but there really isn't so...
> 
> Anyway, guesses on how long until Tim returns? 2 months? 6 months? My guess is at the very end of I Am Bane which will be in about 3 months I think. Unless a Christmas miracle brings him back even sooner


Nah, not really. And they're not going away anytime some. Gotham kids needed some diversity. And don't bring up already queer/minority characters, cause that's just tells me you're treating it like a quota. They can all exist and all be given equal time to shine. Duke nor Harper area  thread to Tim or Steph.

----------


## Fergus

> Yeah, funny how the "everyone hates Duke because prejudice" crowd ignores our love of Batwing, and Batwoman, and the entirely queer Gotham Sirens, and Renee Montoya. Almost like Duke and Harper are just bad characters or something.


This old chestnut. I like "Blacks" cos I have a friend who is "a Black". Seriously.
It's difficult to not see prejudice when a particular fan base is the only one making it about race, insinuating diversity quotas, screaming stuff like "Rabble Rabble Rabble Shoved down our throats! Rabble Rabble" and most important and telling of all;

This fan base is the only one referring to black people as "Blacks". They are called black people not "Blacks"

----------


## Fergus

> Nah, not really. And they're not going away anytime some. Gotham kids needed some diversity. And don't bring up already queer/minority characters, cause that's just tells me you're treating it like a quota. 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				They can all exist and all be given equal time to shine.
> 			
> 		
> 
> Duke nor Harper area  thread to Tim or Steph.


Of course they can all exist and they are all given equal time to shine it's just "entitled fans will do as entitled fans do".

----------


## godisawesome

All the young Batkids can _easily_ coexist, and even thrive amongst each other. The issue is getting enough skilled creators to exploit the characters evenly across the line; while the Bat-line still has probably the best track record of getting good writers on the right characters, it's hard to get 100% quality work without freak of natures like Grant Morrison or Chuck Dixon.

Part of the reason Tim Drake fans love the character is because there was a long period where every appearance of the character was under a great writer; he was introduced when Chuck "I'll write six high-quality books at the same time for fun" Dixon was hitting his stride while Denny O'Neill was still guiding the bat books, and his first team book was written by Peter frickin' David. Damion Scott and Kelly Puckett joined into showcase an artistically unique and awesome Batgirl. And later, when Fabian Nicieza started working his magic on Tim, we had Bryan Q. Miller making Steph rock.

The New 52 may have depleted some of DC's writer resources by favoring artists because they're more immediately marketable, however, which would mean it would take some time to get back to the stacked deck of writers that could get Tim, Steph, Cass, Duke, and Harper all stationed on quality books.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This old chestnut. I like "Blacks" cos I have a friend who is "a Black". Seriously.
> It's difficult to not see prejudice when a particular fan base is the only one making it about race, insinuating diversity quotas, screaming stuff like "Rabble Rabble Rabble Shoved down our throats! Rabble Rabble" and most important and telling of all;
> 
> This fan base is the only one referring to black people as "Blacks". They are called black people not "Blacks"


I've never said "blacks". Not once. And it's funny how you say that Duke's detractors are the ones making it about race when the post right above yours is pro-Duke and uses a race argument. Like, literally right above yours.

Out of my dozens of posts criticizing those characters I've brought up race maybe, once or twice. In passing. I've heard people defend them with "Bat-Fam needs more diversity" dozens of times. One guy even said Duke was a better character than the other Robins cause he was black. Who is making it about race again?

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but don't use strawman arguments like that. You sound like you're accusing people of being racist for hating a character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This old chestnut. I like "Blacks" cos I have a friend who is "a Black". Seriously.
> It's difficult to not see prejudice when a particular fan base is the only one making it about race, insinuating diversity quotas, screaming stuff like "Rabble Rabble Rabble Shoved down our throats! Rabble Rabble" and most important and telling of all;
> 
> This fan base is the only one referring to black people as "Blacks". They are called black people not "Blacks"


This fan base? To whom are you referring too?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Nah, not really. And they're not going away anytime some. Gotham kids needed some diversity. And don't bring up already queer/minority characters, cause that's just tells me you're treating it like a quota. They can all exist and all be given equal time to shine. Duke nor Harper area  thread to Tim or Steph.


1st of all, no not all characters deserve equal time to shine. Ted Kord does not deserve equal time to Wonder Woman (and I like Ted Kord). When you've got an army of established, popular heroes and you start sidelining them to push Harper and Duke, who are at best clumsy additions, there's a problem.

Did you know Batman and Robin Eternal, besides having the name "Robin" right in the bloody title, was meant to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Robin character? Now tell me how it's fair that Harper not only got equal panel time to most of the Robins but she got MORE development in that story than any of them! Looking past whether it's "fair", how is that good storytelling? This is how they hurt everyone else, DC has really twisted priorities when it comes to certain characters and Snyders creations are the worst case.

For the record DC cancelled some long term plans for Harper after the hate directed towards her, so don't think these new guys are invincible or anything. Duke isn't exactly turning out to be hot sh*t either so, don't get too attached.

And if the best thing you can say about a character is "they're diverse" then they're probably not a very good character. You're the one who brought up race, not me. Try justifying Snyders creations without politicizing the discussion.

----------


## Fergus

> All the young Batkids can _easily_ coexist, and even thrive amongst each other. The issue is getting enough skilled creators to exploit the characters evenly across the line; while the Bat-line still has probably the best track record of getting good writers on the right characters, it's hard to get 100% quality work without freak of natures like Grant Morrison or Chuck Dixon.
> 
> Part of the reason Tim Drake fans love the character is because there was a long period where every appearance of the character was under a great writer; he was introduced when Chuck "I'll write six high-quality books at the same time for fun" Dixon was hitting his stride while Denny O'Neill was still guiding the bat books, and his first team book was written by Peter frickin' David. Damion Scott and Kelly Puckett joined into showcase an artistically unique and awesome Batgirl. And later, when Fabian Nicieza started working his magic on Tim, we had Bryan Q. Miller making Steph rock.
> 
> The New 52 may have depleted some of DC's writer resources by favoring artists because they're more immediately marketable, however, which would mean it would take some time to get back to the stacked deck of writers that could get Tim, Steph, Cass, Duke, and Harper all stationed on quality books.


A logical response instead of hitting new characters with a brick, however what some of us don't understand is why the fan base of a character who has enjoyed such longevity let others try for the same. I am not a Duke Thomas fan [ I don't dislike him just meh I don't mind him] but I am a fan of the robins and I remember the same knee jerk reaction when Damian was introduced . It just feels like this particular fan base isn't willing to play with others. You enjoyed Tim for how many years some people love Duke shouldn't they get the chance to enjoy him without the deafening din of this hate. 
You might think that your rhetoric is harmless but it isn't. It creates bias and colours ones opinion of Duke before and every time one reads the character. I find my self looking for the faults people keeping points I found myself reading ASB and Batman imagining other[not]robins in the story/looking for similarities to Tim etc. instead of just the darned story it's distracting and unfair.

----------


## ross61

> 1st of all, no not all characters deserve equal time to shine. Ted Kord does not deserve equal time to Wonder Woman (and I like Ted Kord). When you've got an army of established, popular heroes and you start sidelining them to push Harper and Duke, who are at best clumsy additions, there's a problem.
> 
> Did you know Batman and Robin Eternal, besides having the name "Robin" right in the bloody title, was meant to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Robin character? Now tell me how it's fair that Harper not only got equal panel time to most of the Robins but she got MORE development in that story than any of them! Looking past whether it's "fair", how is that good storytelling? This is how they hurt everyone else, DC has really twisted priorities when it comes to certain characters and Snyders creations are the worst case.
> 
> For the record DC cancelled some long term plans for Harper after the hate directed towards her, so don't think these new guys are invincible or anything. Duke isn't exactly turning out to be hot sh*t either so, don't get too attached.
> 
> *And if the best thing you can say about a character is "they're diverse" then they're probably not a very good character. You're the one who brought up race, not me. Try justifying Snyders creations without politicizing the discussion.*


This let's me know exactly what I'm arguing with. Good day sir.

----------


## Atlanta96

> All the young Batkids can _easily_ coexist, and even thrive amongst each other. The issue is getting enough skilled creators to exploit the characters evenly across the line; while the Bat-line still has probably the best track record of getting good writers on the right characters, it's hard to get 100% quality work without freak of natures like Grant Morrison or Chuck Dixon.
> 
> Part of the reason Tim Drake fans love the character is because there was a long period where every appearance of the character was under a great writer; he was introduced when Chuck "I'll write six high-quality books at the same time for fun" Dixon was hitting his stride while Denny O'Neill was still guiding the bat books, and his first team book was written by Peter frickin' David. Damion Scott and Kelly Puckett joined into showcase an artistically unique and awesome Batgirl. And later, when Fabian Nicieza started working his magic on Tim, we had Bryan Q. Miller making Steph rock.
> 
> The New 52 may have depleted some of DC's writer resources by favoring artists because they're more immediately marketable, however, which would mean it would take some time to get back to the stacked deck of writers that could get Tim, Steph, Cass, Duke, and Harper all stationed on quality books.


It's not going to happen. The Family was struggling to incorporate all its members before the New 52. Tim was still in a tough spot and so was Cass, but they could've been easily fixed. But then Snyder started pushing his pet creations and everything became about them. I think "F$&! over the Bat-Family so Snyder's creations can get a push" describes the New 52 era well. The Eternals, Robin War, the entirety of Snyder's main run, yeah.

And what's changed? Yeah they're cutting down on Harper which is good but Duke is still treated with more importance than anyone else. Who gets to team up with Bruce to fight his iconic villains? Duke. Who gets a long term part in the main, top selling Batman book? Duke. No one has that level of exposure, no one is as integral to the Bat-books as him. Twisted priorities are synonymous with Snyder creations.

Then there's the question of why these characters need to exist in the first place. Duke is mostly a Tim ripoff, Harper is mostly a Steph ripoff. They're derivative, bring no new traits or potential relationships to the Family, and their introductions have been unnatural and disruptive so far. If they were to permanently disappear from the books right now how many readers would be upset? There's brand new characters right now who are actually catching on with readers like Jon Kent and Wally West 2, Duke continues to simply...exist.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This let's me know exactly what I'm arguing with. Good day sir.


And this lets me know exactly who I'm arguing with. Merry Christmas!

----------


## Fergus

> This fan base? To whom are you referring too?


Dataweaver
Atlanta
Lynn
to name a few. The Duke boards are full of serial offenders from this appreciation group. Now I'm not saying that all Duke detractors are from this fan base but I am saying that the "shoved down our throat brigade", "B B But what about Blacks[snigger snigger snigger] crowd is this fan base.

----------


## Atlanta96

> A logical response instead of hitting new characters with a brick, however what some of us don't understand is why the fan base of a character who has enjoyed such longevity let others try for the same. I am not a Duke Thomas fan [ I don't dislike him just meh I don't mind him] but I am a fan of the robins and I remember the same knee jerk reaction when Damian was introduced . It just feels like this particular fan base isn't willing to play with others. You enjoyed Tim for how many years some people love Duke shouldn't they get the chance to enjoy him without the deafening din of this hate. 
> You might think that your rhetoric is harmless but it isn't. It creates bias and colours ones opinion of Duke before and every time one reads the character. I find my self looking for the faults people keeping points I found myself reading ASB and Batman imagining other[not]robins in the story/looking for similarities to Tim etc. instead of just the darned story it's distracting and unfair.


The main issues with Duke are 
1. The New 52 years, and even Pre-Flashpoint a little, have been sh*t for the rest of the Family. You can't tell fans of the established characters to give the new guys a chance when most of the old guys haven't had a bloody chance in years. The Family is broken, until it's fixed pushing a new creation with no fanbase shouldn't be a priority. It was not a good time to make new additions to the Family.

2. Duke is so generic and derivative that he's hardly an original character at all. He's 80% Tim, 10% Jason, and 10% actual original traits. He doesn't feel new and diverse like Damian did, and I have issues with Damian but the last thing I'd call him is unoriginal. Duke just feels pointless, why is it so important to push this character when he had zero reason to exist and brings nothing to the table?

Also, I find it interesting how so many defenses of Duke include some variation of "I'm not a Duke Thomas fan". I'll keep that in mind.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Dataweaver
> Atlanta
> Lynn
> to name a few. The Duke boards are full of serial offenders from this appreciation group. Now I'm not saying that all Duke detractors are from this fan base but I am saying that the "shoved down our throat brigade", "B B But what about Blacks[snigger snigger snigger] crowd is this fan base.


Once again I've never used race as a taking point when discussing these characters. And those other guys only did it, like, once. Again, it's Duke FANS who usually make it about race, please stop straw-manning.

Edit: You should track down some of my posts in the diversity threads on the main DC Comics boards before dismissing me as an, I don't know, opponent of diversity or whatever. I've been in favor of increased diversity for years, and I'm sure those other guys are too. Doesn't stop me from hating Snyders pets though.

----------


## Fergus

[QUOTE=Atlanta96;2490335]


> I've never said "blacks". Not once. And it's funny how you say that Duke's detractors are the ones making it about race when the post right above yours is pro-Duke and uses a race argument. Like, literally right above yours.



No you didn't the poster you were applauding did and since you applauded that offensiveness then i conclude that you are part of that crowd and have the same mentality. And no liking one black person does not a non racist make you [ you know the I'm not racist I have a black friend argument]. In fact pulling out /pointing out your love of said lone "Black" tends to be a manoeuvre used by ignorant racist people. Again I'm not saying that you are racist. I don't know you. But I do know that you applauded someone who thinks it the 1920's and it's still okay to refer to black people as "Blacks".

The poster above me [ross61] was replying to previous derogatory post / conversation centred around race and sexuality which you yourself was a part of.




> Out of my dozens of posts criticizing those characters I've brought up race maybe, once or twice. In passing. I've heard people defend them with "Bat-Fam needs more diversity" dozens of times. One guy even said Duke was a better character than the other Robins cause he was black. Who is making it about race again?


You and others. I can only comment on what I have seen And i've observed with much interest over multiple threads and that's my conclusion.

----------


## Atlanta96

[QUOTE=Fergus;2490394]


> No you didn't the poster you were applauding did and since you applauded that offensiveness then i conclude that you are part of that crowd and have the same mentality. And no liking one black person does not a non racist make you [ you know the I'm not racist I have a black friend argument]. In fact pulling out /pointing out your love of said lone "Black" tends to be a manoeuvre used by ignorant racist people. Again I'm not saying that you are racist. I don't know you. But I do know that you applauded someone who thinks it the 1920's and it's still okay to refer to black people as "Blacks".
> 
> The poster above me [ross61] was replying to previous derogatory post / conversation centred around race and sexuality which you yourself was a part of.
> 
> 
> You and others. I can only comment on what I have seen And i've observed with much interest over multiple threads and that's my conclusion.


If you go back and read that post you can tell he's saying it with irony. Context is everything. No one on these boards actually says "blacks" un-ironically.

Care to respond to anything else I said?

----------


## Fergus

> The main issues with Duke are 
> 1. The New 52 years, and even Pre-Flashpoint a little, have been sh*t for the rest of the Family. You can't tell fans of the established characters to give the new guys a chance when most of the old guys haven't had a bloody chance in years. The Family is broken, until it's fixed pushing a new creation with no fanbase shouldn't be a priority. It was not a good time to make new additions to the Family.
> 
> 2. Duke is so generic and derivative that he's hardly an original character at all. He's 80% Tim, 10% Jason, and 10% actual original traits. He doesn't feel new and diverse like Damian did, and I have issues with Damian but the last thing I'd call him is unoriginal. Duke just feels pointless, why is it so important to push this character when he had zero reason to exist and brings nothing to the table?
> 
> Also, I find it interesting how so many defenses of Duke include some variation of "I'm not a Duke Thomas fan". I'll keep that in mind.


Yes Duke doesn't have as many fans but he does have fans and I think those people deserve the same enjoyment and whatever we had with our favourites. The fact that they are focused on Duke and Damian doesn't mean it's the end for others. Nightwing is on fire, Tec is great I've heard and I'm even enjoying RHATO. Tim is supposedly gonna save us and come back as Jesus so everyone is fine. Even if they shelve Tim for a time so? You have 20odd years of his solo robin to reread.

A lot of us might not be Duke Thomas fans but we are anti bullying and anti hate. Some of us might not be Duke fans we just want to enjoy comics and discuss em without one fanbase bashing a fictional character constantly. We don't have to be Duke fans to feel the need to stand up against unwarranted and continuous victimisation. What you are witnessing is people saying enough already give the bleating a rest.

----------


## Fergus

[QUOTE=Atlanta96;2490403]


> If you go back and read that post you can tell he's saying it with irony. Context is everything. No one on these boards actually says "blacks" un-ironically.
> 
> Care to respond to anything else I said?


I have read your posts on diversity boards and on the Duke and Damian boards I've actually been lurking on CBR forums for sometime before finally caving and signing up so I've seen your posts and yeah you do write a lot of pro diversity stuff however pro diversity doesn't = not racist. I know from your posts that you're someone who is pro diversity [Esp. sexual diversity] but who will enthusiastically applaud the term "Blacks" so....

I got that he was saying it with irony hence why I stated in a prior post, "Blacks and Bisexuals [snigger snigger]" Racism is racism Blacks is a derogatory term irony or no irony poster could have used correct nomenclature and still gotten the irony across.

----------


## Fergus

> It's not going to happen. The Family was struggling to incorporate all its members before the New 52. Tim was still in a tough spot and so was Cass, but they could've been easily fixed. But then Snyder started pushing his pet creations and everything became about them. I think "F$&! over the Bat-Family so Snyder's creations can get a push" describes the New 52 era well. The Eternals, Robin War, the entirety of Snyder's main run, yeah.
> 
> And what's changed? Yeah they're cutting down on Harper which is good but Duke is still treated with more importance than anyone else. Who gets to team up with Bruce to fight his iconic villains? Duke. Who gets a long term part in the main, top selling Batman book? Duke. No one has that level of exposure, no one is as integral to the Bat-books as him. Twisted priorities are synonymous with Snyder creations.
> 
> Then there's the question of why these characters need to exist in the first place. Duke is mostly a Tim ripoff, Harper is mostly a Steph ripoff. They're derivative, bring no new traits or potential relationships to the Family, and their introductions have been unnatural and disruptive so far. If they were to permanently disappear from the books right now how many readers would be upset? There's brand new characters right now who are actually catching on with readers like Jon Kent and Wally West 2, Duke continues to simply...exist.


Dude look at it this way at the end of the day DC is a business with shareholders sure they're trying something new, taking a gamble. If it does doesn't pay off they'll scrape the idea. So if these characters are as bad as you claim then it's only a matter of time till they're scraped and more profitable ones returned to the fold. You only have to be patient and wait. This isn't like the Cyborg issue.

----------


## godisawesome

I have to agree that blaming and complaining about Harper and Duke for Tim, Steph and Cass's current state of affairs is misplaced anger and frustration. The issues with the three properties that we 90's kids care about are only very indirectly tied to Harper and Duke's appearances, and not in the pseudo-conspiratorial way some people view them. Duke and Harper are new characters born in a crazy time for Batman, and unlike the Three 90's kids, lacked a single guiding force behind them, and the somewhat derivative nature of their stories has more to do with inexperienced writers, delegation of new series, editorial directives, and, yes, a vacuum left behind by the New 52's decrees against Batgirls and incompetent handling of a popular youth franchise.

First of all, a review of interviews and evidence dealing with the early New 52 _heavily_ implies that if the Bat writers like Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder (and Scott Lobdell, loathe as I am to admit it) had their way, Tim, Steph, and Cass would have carried on without any real changes. Morrison spent months trying to work out how to keep BatSteph in INC, and Bryan Q. Miller was all set to provide a substitute in the Smallville comics. Lobdell's early interviews make it clear that Teen Titans was initially just a rebranding of the series, complete with Superboy being captured instead of recreated and Tim wearing his Red Robin cowl. And Snyder and co. were explicitly reported to beg the higher ups to let them use Cass. But, as we know now, DC was so obsessed with the Marketing 101 nature of the New 52 that they sunk all three ideas: Cass and Steph were flat out outlawed, even in non-continuity books, and Teen Titans slowly turned into a $#!+ show of bad decisions that refused to have anything to do with its far more popular past.

_That's_ what hurt Tim, Steph, and Cass. And the effects of those decisions are still effecting them now: Tim retaining his New 52 origin in Rebirth is either because they want to explicitly reject it or because someone high up the food chain loves it (especially considering how stubbornly they held to the Lobdell-Titans portrayal even after cancelling volume 1), and Steph and Cass are still fighting the entrenched lack of faith in the Batgirl brand at DC that demands Babs be the iconic (and underwhelming) sole holder of the title. Tim _may_ be having retcon-surgery to remove the New 52 taint in the coming year; Cass and Steph are still shackled with the "they can't threaten the market viability of an iconic Batgirl" trait from editorial, which pushes the authors to try and develop them apart from that identity, more so Steph then Cass, mind you, since Cass was always a radically different take on the subject, and Steph's Batgril tenure seems eerily like a more critically acclaimed predecessor to the Burnside Babs than anything.

Duke and Harper have nothing to do with the above mess. They simply were spawned by it. Harper was created to serve Cass and Steph's role in Snyder's run; that's why her intial introduction seemed like a modified take on Steph's civilian ID. And Duke has some really unclear origins: while we know that Snyder had some idea for the character, his "launch," so to speak, was under Lee Bermejo, one of those artist-turned-writers the New 52 deployed. Harper, after being featured in two maxi-series, seems to have been kind of withdrawn from the field. Duke is now being used in the main books, but in a radically different costume. He may be getting a wrestling style push above that of the 90's kids, but can you blame them? He comes with almost zero baggage. The 90's kids are either still in need of rehab (Tim) or were forced to be reintroduced at the "larval" stage and need to be delicately reconstructed to avoid ticking off their fan bases.

----------


## Atlanta96

[QUOTE=Fergus;2490421]


> I have read your posts on diversity boards and on the Duke and Damian boards I've actually been lurking on CBR forums for sometime before finally caving and signing up so I've seen your posts and yeah you do write a lot of pro diversity stuff however pro diversity doesn't = not racist. I know from your posts that you're someone who is pro diversity [Esp. sexual diversity] but who will enthusiastically applaud the term "Blacks" so....
> 
> I got that he was saying it with irony hence why I stated in a prior post, "Blacks and Bisexuals [snigger snigger]" Racism is racism Blacks is a derogatory term irony or no irony poster could have used correct nomenclature and still gotten the irony across.


"...enthusiastically applaud the term "blacks"..."

I just... I can't even. Are we even reading the same thread?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Dude look at it this way at the end of the day DC is a business with shareholders sure they're trying something new, taking a gamble. If it does doesn't pay off they'll scrape the idea. So if these characters are as bad as you claim then it's only a matter of time till they're scraped and more profitable ones returned to the fold. You only have to be patient and wait. This isn't like the Cyborg issue.


You forget that Duke already had an ongoing that did poorly even for a DCYou book. It was outsold by Son of Batman, Black Canary, Gotham Academy, Starfire, and even that horrible Batman Beyond book starring Tim Drake. People say no one gives a damn about Tim when even a solo with a premise so bad it makes people hate it instantly can outperform We Are Robin.

I've already mentioned how ASB is already the first Snyder Batman comic since the Pre-Flashpoint days not to crack 100k on the Diamond charts. Despite a 400k first issue and massive hype. You can blame the $5 price I guess, but I think it's the price in addition to heavy use of an unpopular character that's holding the series back in unit sales. At the moment there's no indication that Mr. Yellow is profitable, his appearances in King's book are nothing more than distracting cameos and despite existing for 3 years there is still no noticeable amount of interest in this character.

I don't believe this character is being pushed because anyone thinks he's profitable, I think it's to make Snyder happy and give him incentive to stay with DC.

----------


## Radiohead

This thread looks pretty spicy...

----------


## Fergus

> You forget that Duke already had an ongoing that did poorly even for a DCYou book. It was outsold by Son of Batman, Black Canary, Gotham Academy, Starfire, and even that horrible Batman Beyond book starring Tim Drake. People say no one gives a damn about Tim when even a solo with a premise so bad it makes people hate it instantly can outperform We Are Robin.
> 
> I've already mentioned how ASB is already the first Snyder Batman comic since the Pre-Flashpoint days not to crack 100k on the Diamond charts. Despite a 400k first issue and massive hype. You can blame the $5 price I guess, but I think it's the price in addition to heavy use of an unpopular character that's holding the series back in unit sales. At the moment there's no indication that Mr. Yellow is profitable, his appearances in King's book are nothing more than distracting cameos and despite existing for 3 years there is still no noticeable amount of interest in this character.
> 
> I don't believe this character is being pushed because anyone thinks he's profitable, I think it's to make Snyder happy and give him incentive to stay with DC.


I liked the Duke character in We are Robin and Robin War but that's besides the point. I still maintain that it's a matter of time. Keeping shareholders happy trumps keeping a particular writer happy. If Duke proves detrimental in his current position then he will be scraped. Maybe not deleted completely but they might build a book similar to We are Robin around him instead seems to be what Synder is building up to. A Duke solo. My point is give him time to find his legs and yes I realise that it's been 3yrs but not all characters catch on immediately especially not when so many are so vocal in their dislike for him. Jon's situation is not like Duke's he has more odds stacked against him [and he's no Damian Wayne]so it's an uphill struggle.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I have to agree that blaming and complaining about Harper and Duke for Tim, Steph and Cass's current state of affairs is misplaced anger and frustration. The issues with the three properties that we 90's kids care about are only very indirectly tied to Harper and Duke's appearances, and not in the pseudo-conspiratorial way some people view them. Duke and Harper are new characters born in a crazy time for Batman, and unlike the Three 90's kids, lacked a single guiding force behind them, and the somewhat derivative nature of their stories has more to do with inexperienced writers, delegation of new series, editorial directives, and, yes, a vacuum left behind by the New 52's decrees against Batgirls and incompetent handling of a popular youth franchise.


No, Snyders pets weren't the start of the problems. But they did/are making the problems worse.

Well, not just those characters themselves but Snyders treatment of the Family has been abysmal. Going from his hate letter to the Robins titled Death of the Family to instantly pushing his personal creations in the main book was probably the moment that killed the Bat-Family. After that every opportunity to rebuild the Family even a little, the Eternals, Robin War, the later arcs of the main book, We Are Robin, has been dedicated to pushing Snyders creations as opposed to the established characters.

And now, we've got a Robin focused arc in Batman but with Tim cut out and replaced with Duke, which is frustrating in many ways. We've got Duke dominating ASB with no mention of Bruce's other allies aside from hateful and unforgivable comments directed at Robin. Dick is relegated to 2 mid-sellers. Damian is relegated to 2 mid-sellers (we all know Super Sons will be a mid), Jason is stuck in a low seller, Tim is in imbo with an unclear future and is left out of every storyline or crossover Duke gets to appear in, right now the only one of those guys who's an important part of the Bat-books is Duke.

Snyders characters bloat an already bloated group of characters. Their existence takes up space that could've gone to others. They're derivative, the last thing Tim and Steph needed was extremely similar characters to make it even HARDER to fit in with the rest of the Family. This was the worst possible time to introduce/push new characters and they did it anyway. They're still doing it, they don't care. They are, at the very least, part of the problem. And I think anyone who claims to like everyone in the Bat-Family at the moment should prepare to take some sides in the near future.




> This thread looks pretty spicy...


Not usually, it's just having a bad day  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Dataweaver
> Atlanta
> Lynn
> to name a few. The Duke boards are full of serial offenders from this appreciation group. Now I'm not saying that all Duke detractors are from this fan base but I am saying that the "shoved down our throat brigade", "B B But what about Blacks[snigger snigger snigger] crowd is this fan base.


Oh, ok. I thought you meant Tim fan's in general. I'm a big fan of his, I also have a big spot of all the other Robin's. Damian and Dick rank pretty high up there for me as well. While I found Duke pretty bland at first, I'm starting to warm up to him. I'm interested to see where the characters journey takes him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This thread looks pretty spicy...


Lol, I like how this is your first post :Cool:

----------


## nj06

What were some of the things that you all did like about the New 52 Tim Drake/Red Robin?

For me, I did like the wings. While I think they could have been incorporated into the costume in a better way, I like the idea that Tim occasionally used flight/glider wings. I also liked the return to the domino mask. The mask he wore right before the reboot wasn't bad, but I think the domino mask works best for Tim.

----------


## godisawesome

Personally, I think Tim should drop the domino mask when he's not Robin; it's a visual shorthand for progression from the role. I kind of liked the wings... But then every artist with the character thought his fight style had to incorporate them, with the result being an awful lot of images where Tim is trying to attack someone by thrusting his crotch at them.

One element, I would like to see refined? Penguin being involved in Tim's origin. Not the way it is now; Tim comes off as an arrogant moron rewarded for being an idiot. But the idea of Penguin, one of the most stubborn and cunning villains, being Tim's A-List Batman anatagonist? I like that. Just make it so Penguin was threatening the Drakes, so Tim has to see Penguin in jail and his organization completely dismantled if he ever wants to have his family live a normal life again.

----------


## Fergus

I liked the fact that he still had parents [in fact I preferred his nu52 origin] and I also liked cowl look better on Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

There were aspects of Tim's new origin that I preferred over the original.

----------


## Aahz

I like that he really did Detecive work to find out to Batman is, and didn't just learned it by watching TV.

And I also think that him coming from regular family and not having super rich parents is more fitting to the character (even in the original comics that was something that was imo often played down).

----------


## millernumber1

> There were aspects of Tim's new origin that I preferred over the original.


Agreed. It's not a super well thought out backstory in some places, but I like a lot of what Lobdell was trying to do. I also really like his parents being alive, though I wish Tynion would deal with that fact in Tec when he's "dead".

----------


## Aahz

> I also liked cowl look better on Tim.


The best looking Red Robin Costume was imo the unternet version. It's a petty that this wasn't adapted out side of the unternet.

----------


## Atlanta96

> There were aspects of Tim's new origin that I preferred over the original.


Not enough. I'd still take the original, flaws and all, over Lobdell's trainwreck. It reads like 5 different people screaming at him to "Do this, include this!" and the writer desperately trying to make something coherent.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Not enough. I'd still take the original, flaws and all, over Lobdell's trainwreck. It reads like 5 different people screaming at him to "Do this, include this!" and the writer desperately trying to make something coherent.


Notice I said; 'aspects'. Overall the original better suits Tim. But even you have to admit there were parts of the New52 one that aren't all that bad.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Notice I said; 'aspects'. Overall the original better suits Tim. But even you have to admit there were parts of the New52 one that aren't all that bad.


Maybe, but it was 80% bad so it's still not worth it. Erasing his early meeting with Dick, his time as Robin, and turning him into a psychotic spoiled brat who ends up being rewarded for his awful behavior kind of overshadows any positives IMO.

----------


## nj06

> The best looking Red Robin Costume was imo the unternet version. It's a petty that this wasn't adapted out side of the unternet.


I agree 100%. I would have loved for this to be his costume in the New 52.

----------


## twincast

> Maybe, but it was 80% bad so it's still not worth it. Erasing his early meeting with Dick, his time as Robin, and turning him into a psychotic spoiled brat who ends up being rewarded for his awful behavior kind of overshadows any positives IMO.


Really the only good thing about the equal parts ridiculous and horrendous Nu52 origin was that his parents were alive again, and that a) wasn't really a difference, origin-wise, and b) never got picked up on outside a couple of issues of B&RE. Jay explicitly got his iconic origin story back (with miniscule retcons, as has been the norm for revisited Big Two origins for decades), and IIRC whenever referenced recently, they only ever mention the core of Dick's which stayed the same, not the added orphanage stuff; I'd be tremendously pissed if Tim's doesn't get the same treatment.

----------


## godisawesome

The Lobdell Origin had several good _objectives_ that I'd honestly love to see carried out in a reworked Tim Origin Story. The issue was the execution combining with other dubious objectives that I believe were a case of "fixing what's not broken."

*Objective 1:* _Update Tim's methods of Finding out Batman's ID_. This makes a lot of sense from both a technological and character standpoint. Tim's original memorization of Dick's trademark acrobatic move worked great for the 90's, but nowadays that stuff would be on YouTube, defeating both the impressiveness of Tim'a memory and his deduction itself. Lobdell's execution here actually wasn't bad, and it makes sense that he'd use digital forensics. It's a bit bland, so maybe using some other methods to supplement it would make it better. Like, perhaps after he figures out that Grayson and Wayne are Robin and Batman, he quietly makes his elf an online resource like the detective group that Batman used in Dini's stories. Heck, maybe he's Jason's go to tech guy, and Jason's death confirms his suspicions and alerts him to Batman's need for a sidekick.

*Objective 2:*_Keep Tim's parents alive._ Even though my preferred Red Robin era doesn't involve his parents, this is still a major way to define Tim as a different Robin, and it's actually kind of crazy how well a Witness Protection Agency method could serve to motivate Tim. The issue is how Lobdell (or his editors) screwed up the idea. The way the idea plays in the New 52 origin, Tim was rewarded for being an irresponsible idiot, his parents suffer for it, and their purpose in being alive is defeated since they only appeared to be threatened. I've mentioned this before, but I'd keep Penguin and the WP idea, but make Penguin the instigator, have Tim contact the Batfamily out of desperation to save them, and _if_ you're going to have him operate away from his parents, have him in contact with them every issue.

*Objective 3:* _Abridging Tim's training_. This, to me, was already a very questionable idea. Tim's previous training was an excellent storyline and also served to seperate him from other Robins; it served to emphasize his cerebral nature because he wasn't a natural fighter, proved his dedication and discipline as Robin, and was arguably the first modern training that still worked. Making him an Olympian kind of missed that point. It made him an all around prodigy, and to such an extent that it kind of lessened his actual achievements because he didn't struggle for them, contributing to the reckless depiction that wound up hurting the perception of the character in the reading audience. The only thing to benefit from the change was the Five year timeline that nobody really liked. I'd drop this whole thread and just reintegrate the training with Shiva.

*Objective 4:* _Make the Red Robin identity unique and redefine it as Tim's._ Not a bad idea, but their method kind of defeated their purpose: insisting that *Red* Robin is radically different from Robin while dressing him as Robin, saying he served the same function, and only having him serve with an adjective added to his name, does nothing to make the name change significant. Complain all you want about Tim's Pre-Flashpoint reason for changing IDs, but it made sense and _was_ a change-up. He went from Robin to Red Robin. The closest explanation we ever got to how Tim's ID was important in the New 52 was a vague suggestion he was trying  to honor Jason. You want to do that? You probably need to have Jason return as Red Hood when Tim decides to make the ID change, so it's explicit, like on the Young Justice Abridged YouTube show. And honestly? It's undoubtedly easier to just make the Red Robin designation a promotion again, and reintegrate Tim's time as Robin.

----------


## Aahz

Since I finally read futures end, I'm wandering what you think of that version of Tim. 
To me he acted and looked not really like Tim, he acted imo more like Dick and looked more like young Bruce or maybe Jason. And didn't really act like if he was only 21 (wich would be his age in "5 Years from Now").

And that he was suddenly something like ~6'0'' while he is usually supposed to be quite short was also stange.

----------


## gwhh

Rose Wilson & Tim Relationship Expanded Here:

http://superhero-muses.livejournal.com/14885.html

http://www.rphaven.com/profile.php?user=Rose%20Wilson

----------


## millernumber1

> The Lobdell Origin had several good _objectives_ that I'd honestly love to see carried out in a reworked Tim Origin Story. The issue was the execution combining with other dubious objectives that I believe were a case of "fixing what's not broken."
> 
> *Objective 1:* _Update Tim's methods of Finding out Batman's ID_. This makes a lot of sense from both a technological and character standpoint. Tim's original memorization of Dick's trademark acrobatic move worked great for the 90's, but nowadays that stuff would be on YouTube, defeating both the impressiveness of Tim'a memory and his deduction itself. Lobdell's execution here actually wasn't bad, and it makes sense that he'd use digital forensics. It's a bit bland, so maybe using some other methods to supplement it would make it better. Like, perhaps after he figures out that Grayson and Wayne are Robin and Batman, he quietly makes his elf an online resource like the detective group that Batman used in Dini's stories. Heck, maybe he's Jason's go to tech guy, and Jason's death confirms his suspicions and alerts him to Batman's need for a sidekick.
> 
> *Objective 2:*_Keep Tim's parents alive._ Even though my preferred Red Robin era doesn't involve his parents, this is still a major way to define Tim as a different Robin, and it's actually kind of crazy how well a Witness Protection Agency method could serve to motivate Tim. The issue is how Lobdell (or his editors) screwed up the idea. The way the idea plays in the New 52 origin, Tim was rewarded for being an irresponsible idiot, his parents suffer for it, and their purpose in being alive is defeated since they only appeared to be threatened. I've mentioned this before, but I'd keep Penguin and the WP idea, but make Penguin the instigator, have Tim contact the Batfamily out of desperation to save them, and _if_ you're going to have him operate away from his parents, have him in contact with them every issue.
> 
> *Objective 3:* _Abridging Tim's training_. This, to me, was already a very questionable idea. Tim's previous training was an excellent storyline and also served to seperate him from other Robins; it served to emphasize his cerebral nature because he wasn't a natural fighter, proved his dedication and discipline as Robin, and was arguably the first modern training that still worked. Making him an Olympian kind of missed that point. It made him an all around prodigy, and to such an extent that it kind of lessened his actual achievements because he didn't struggle for them, contributing to the reckless depiction that wound up hurting the perception of the character in the reading audience. The only thing to benefit from the change was the Five year timeline that nobody really liked. I'd drop this whole thread and just reintegrate the training with Shiva.
> 
> *Objective 4:* _Make the Red Robin identity unique and redefine it as Tim's._ Not a bad idea, but their method kind of defeated their purpose: insisting that *Red* Robin is radically different from Robin while dressing him as Robin, saying he served the same function, and only having him serve with an adjective added to his name, does nothing to make the name change significant. Complain all you want about Tim's Pre-Flashpoint reason for changing IDs, but it made sense and _was_ a change-up. He went from Robin to Red Robin. The closest explanation we ever got to how Tim's ID was important in the New 52 was a vague suggestion he was trying  to honor Jason. You want to do that? You probably need to have Jason return as Red Hood when Tim decides to make the ID change, so it's explicit, like on the Young Justice Abridged YouTube show. And honestly? It's undoubtedly easier to just make the Red Robin designation a promotion again, and reintegrate Tim's time as Robin.


Great breakdown! That's a really good way of articulating why I enjoy the n52 origin, while also acknowledging the flaws. I'd argue the biggest flaw is that this was all done in half-issue short stories, rather than the years of origin that built Tim into the character we know and love. Is it good or bad that Tim's origin isn't quite as compressible as Bruce and Dick's?

----------


## godisawesome

I'd argue that it's not bad that Tim's Origin is so long; rather the issue is that Lobdell probably would have been better served making sure the Genesis period, when Tim gets his motivation and first enters the world of the Bat, was slick and similar to his accepted origin. Tim intruding on Batman's life and revealing hai deductions is much like Jason stealing tires off the Batmobile; it's the brief, off-the-cuff explanation for why this kid is uniquely suited to being Robin. *That* probably should have been the entire focus of any rewrite of the character. Instead, Lobdell got focused on trying to summarize and abridge literal _years_ of character work and fine-tuning by both Marv frickin' Wolfmann (aka, father of the New Teen Titans and the identity of Nightwing) and Chuck frickin' Dixon (aka, the guy who wrote pretty much all Bat-family spinoffs, and wrote them so well that they all outlasted their peers).

Lobdell, or his editors, who seem to stink a bit more for his errors on Teen Titans, should have just stuck to making the alternative to A Lonely Place of Dying, and just give Tim's motivation and introduction to Batman. It wouldn't neccesarily have worked to just focus on that; Lobdell hails from a very different school of comic writing than the kind that spawned Tim, being more bombastic and a bit less grounded and detail-oriented. But trying to cover everything about Tim in two issues, and not having editors good enough to sniff out his mistakes until the last minute, pretty much doomed Lobdell's new origin for Tim to be seen as a pale imitation at best, and a total misunderstanding of the character's appeal at worst.

----------


## James Hunter

I know I'm late but I've only just read the latest issue of DETECTIVE COMICS (#947), I can't get my comics weekly.

How come no one is discussing who Tim saw when he tried to escape at the end of the issue (the figure that seemed to be made of energy)?  Are there any new theories on who that could be and I just missed the discussion?

Cheers.

James.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> *Objective 3:* _Abridging Tim's training_. This, to me, was already a very questionable idea. Tim's previous training was an excellent storyline and also served to seperate him from other Robins; it served to emphasize his cerebral nature because he wasn't a natural fighter, proved his dedication and discipline as Robin, and was arguably the first modern training that still worked. Making him an Olympian kind of missed that point. It made him an all around prodigy, and to such an extent that it kind of lessened his actual achievements because he didn't struggle for them, contributing to the reckless depiction that wound up hurting the perception of the character in the reading audience. The only thing to benefit from the change was the Five year timeline that nobody really liked. I'd drop this whole thread and just reintegrate the training with Shiva.


I get that with this they wanted Tim to be more than just a guy, to kind of ground his ability to operate as a costume vigilante. Olympic gymnast is just the most boring way to go about it. 

If Tim has to have an athletic background, I still think Quarterback is the best way to go. Equal parts athleticism, mental prep, and quick decision making.

----------


## scary harpy

> I get that with this they wanted Tim to be more than just a guy, to kind of ground his ability to operate as a costume vigilante. Olympic gymnast is just the most boring way to go about it. 
> 
> If Tim has to have an athletic background, I still think Quarterback is the best way to go. Equal parts athleticism, mental prep, and quick decision making.


And the repeated head trauma?

I thought gymnast betters explains rooftop fighting.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> And the repeated head trauma?
> 
> I thought gymnast betters explains rooftop fighting.


Not often an issue for QBs, especially intelligent pocket passer ones. 

I dunno, Gymnast is just so boring and derivative of Dick. I like QB because of how much of it relies on analyzing data and quickly acting on that analysis.

----------


## thefiresky

So. "Dr. Oz". More than likely Ozymandias from Watchmen...

----------


## scary harpy

> Not often an issue for QBs, especially intelligent pocket passer ones. 
> 
> I dunno, Gymnast is just so boring and derivative of Dick. I like QB because of how much of it relies on analyzing data and quickly acting on that analysis.


Oh. Well, that does sound much better. 

Can QBs do the dodges, flips and jumps required of a Robin?

----------


## godisawesome

> Oh. Well, that does sound much better. 
> 
> Can QBs do the dodges, flips and jumps required of a Robin?


They're not known for them, no. But, to be frank, when you compare Tim to the other Robins, neither is he. The old Tim had only some rudimentary self-defense training before joining up with Batman. The purpose of his next few appearances was to show that he trained to get the other skills, in particular with the bo staff. Tim earned his fighting skills, and even then they were tempered by requiring him to be analytical and strategic in his fighting and maneuvering. Which is something a quarterback does. 

And I'll admit, I could see Tim being like the quarterback I blocked for in high school; kid worked hard to be a successful powerlifting competitor, and was a great athlete his senior year, but his only natural advantage was a brain that let him reprogram his Madden game to run my dad's playbook, play varsity as a Freshmen and score a 35 on his ACT test. I knew him back when he wasn't intimidating as a freshmen starter behind a freshmen center mostly trying not to get killed and win the few games we could. When I came back from college to see his senior year, the kid was trucking fools, throwing touchdowns, and only lost one game, and that was in the playoffs.

I don't need Tim to be a quarterback or anything more than an amateur athlete in decent shape for his age when he starts out. I really just want him to have the brains for it and train hard to get the rest.

And I'm thinking that either the electric figure he saw in the last Detective issue was either a Doctor Manhattan in agony, or a concealed version of Conner or Bart.

----------


## Atlanta96

> And I'm thinking that either the electric figure he saw in the last Detective issue was either a Doctor Manhattan in agony, or a concealed version of Conner or Bart.


Best case scenario, it was the real Bart or Conner imprisoned alongside New 52 Bart or Conner. Revealing to Tim that they are not the same person, and his life during the New 52 was a lie.

----------


## twincast

Just so you know, we have zero information on what Tim saw. That "electric figure" was him being transported from the hallway back into another cell.

I mistook it at first glance as well, but looking at the poses and the backgrounds (while remembering how he got there in the first place) makes it clear.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Just so you know, we have zero information on what Tim saw. That "electric figure" was him being transported from the hallway back into another cell.
> 
> I mistook it at first glance as well, but looking at the poses and the backgrounds (while remembering how he got there in the first place) makes it clear.


The lack of information is what makes the speculating so much fun  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Back then, Tim was so sweet and tiny. 

detective comics_804 city of crime_18.jpg

detective comics_804 city of crime_19.jpg

Detective Comics_issue 808 City of crime.jpg

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Gershwin073

I'm not a fan of the olympic gymnast twist myself, or honestly any of the backstory changes. I could've liked the parents being alive thing, but the way Tim actually lost his parents pre-52 was powerful and it made him into who he would later become (especially after Connor died as well).

I did like how Tim used to be drawn pretty small, and over the years slowly grew into his Red Robin stature, which still wasn't overly muscular (Like what the hell was that in the Arkham Asylum games?!) but it fit him. His brain was always his greatest asset anyway, still get chills when reading the Red Robin series where Ra's calls him Detective  :Wink:

----------


## Caivu

Cover of Superwoman #9. Rightmost tombstone.

IMG_20170114_204302.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

The threads are starting to come together...

----------


## Atlanta96

I really hope they aren't planning to cover Tim's story in Superwoman, a book I have zero interest in.

----------


## millernumber1

> I really hope they aren't planning to cover Tim's story in Superwoman, a book I have zero interest in.


Hmm! I shall have to check it out - I started reading it, but despite the nice art, I just don't care about the characters they're writing about. But Tim showing up would be interesting!

----------


## The Whovian

> I really hope they aren't planning to cover Tim's story in Superwoman, a book I have zero interest in.


I doubt that has anything to do with Tim. The gravestones besides that one says "Clark Kent and Lois Lane". Bruce would have Tim's tombstone on his property.

----------


## Gershwin073

I am wondering when and where the Tim storyline is gonna pay off. And if it will be made a big deal when he returns, cause mostly his ''death'' was kinda glossed over by the characters (with some exceptions). For instance Dick just reacting with ''Tim isn't here'' to Bruce in Batmna was just like....  

Hopefully we'll get another solo series out of it at least!

----------


## millernumber1

> I am wondering when and where the Tim storyline is gonna pay off. And if it will be made a big deal when he returns, cause mostly his ''death'' was kinda glossed over by the characters (with some exceptions). For instance Dick just reacting with ''Tim isn't here'' to Bruce in Batmna was just like....  
> 
> Hopefully we'll get another solo series out of it at least!


It greatly confuses me, the response to Tim's death and how it's received in fandom. It feels like half the fandom is annoyed at how frequently it comes up, the other think it's glossed over, as you say. I personally think it's handled quite well (though I don't know if I'd feel the same if he was really dead).

----------


## Gershwin073

I think that's the main issue with it, that the fandom knows he's not really dead. Because from a purely character viewpoint I'd say the response in the DCU has been kinda 'whelmed', to borrow a Young Justice term. It's hard to argue that Damien dying for instance had a bigger fallout then Tim. From a creator viewpoint it does makes sense not to build a death up lots when your readers know it's temporary (I'd guess that's where they annoyance about the frequency of mentioning it comes from). So it's understandable, but for someone who was taken off the bord because 'he's so loved', it isn't really that reflected in the story, to me at least.

----------


## dietrich

> It greatly confuses me, the response to Tim's death and how it's received in fandom. It feels like half the fandom is annoyed at how frequently it comes up, the other think it's glossed over, as you say. I personally think it's handled quite well (though I don't know if I'd feel the same if he was really dead).


I was one of those that was frustrated and annoyed by the constant mentioning. It felt like pandering and disingenuous since Tim barely had a relationship with those bemoaning his 'death'. Showing people missing him when you never established any prior emotional connection made it all ring hollow.

However I understand the use in tec. It paid off in that book.

----------


## KrustyKid

Probably the creepiest Tim/Damian picture I have seen.

november_2016_by_wonchan108-davpyhp.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Probably the creepiest Tim/Damian picture I have seen.
> 
> november_2016_by_wonchan108-davpyhp.jpg


That is definitely creepy

----------


## Atlanta96

> Probably the creepiest Tim/Damian picture I have seen.
> 
> november_2016_by_wonchan108-davpyhp.jpg


...What do you even classify that as? Never mind, I don't want to know. Jesus Christ. Some people have very VERY specific interests.

----------


## Atlanta96

In my efforts to find an even creepier (SFW) Tim/Damian fan art...
IMG_8415.jpg

I also found this.
IMG_8414.jpg

I do not understand humanity.

Also, isn't it sad that Tim has been in limbo so long that we're stuck discussing...this?

----------


## KrustyKid

> In my efforts to find an even creepier (SFW) Tim/Damian fan art...
> IMG_8415.jpg
> 
> I also found this.
> IMG_8414.jpg
> 
> I do not understand humanity.
> 
> Also, isn't it sad that Tim has been in limbo so long that we're stuck discussing...this?


Those bellies though...

----------


## Atlanta96

> Those bellies though...


Fan art of morbidly obese superheroes is actually very common for some reason. I assume it's some kind of a fetish.

By the way, do you have a link to the original artist? I have a morbid curiosity to see what else they've done.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## KrustyKid

> Fan art of morbidly obese superheroes is actually very common for some reason. I assume it's some kind of a fetish.
> 
> By the way, do you have a link to the original artist? I have a morbid curiosity to see what else they've done.


Right here,

http://wonchan108.deviantart.com/

----------


## twincast

> 


Thank you for this mind-cleanser.

----------


## KrustyKid

Of all the Robin bros, Tim is certainly the most irrelevant as it stands now. And this is coming from a Tim fan. So my question is once Tim returns, if you had the creative decision what would you do with him? Have him and Detective Chimp open up a detective agency called 'Wild Wings'? Would you have him thrown in another team book (A new Young Justice perhaps?) Maybe he could leave the Bat Fam altogether and work as a communications guy (similar to Oracle) for the broader DCU?

I want to hear all of your crazy thoughts! Whether it be male stripper, swimming pool guard, or even a hot dog stand boy. If given the choice, what direction would you take Drake? What direction do you predict will be taken for Tim?

----------


## Aahz

> Would you have him thrown in another team book (A new Young Justice perhaps?)


He really needs a solo imo (and when it is just a mini) and if they put him on a team it should be a quite small one with at best 3 members (like RHatO, BoP or Super Sons).

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Either a solo that actually focuses on detective stories, or back in 'TEC where they can focus more on his big picture approach to crimefighting.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Of all the Robin bros, Tim is certainly the most irrelevant as it stands now. And this is coming from a Tim fan. So my question is once Tim returns, if you had the creative decision what would you do with him? Have him and Detective Chimp open up a detective agency called 'Wild Wings'? Would you have him thrown in another team book (A new Young Justice perhaps?) Maybe he could leave the Bat Fam altogether and work as a communications guy (similar to Oracle) for the broader DCU?
> 
> I want to hear all of your crazy thoughts! Whether it be male stripper, swimming pool guard, or even a hot dog stand boy. If given the choice, what direction would you take Drake? What direction do you predict will be taken for Tim?


I'd say Jason is more irrelevant, but the situation with Tim really isn't as dire as some people make it out to be. If they continued with his Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin direction he'd have been more than fine. He just didn't get the chance to smoothly transition out of the Robin identity the way Dick Grayson did, mostly because if the New 52.

Don't move him away from the Bat-Family, his relationships are strong. They shouldn't hesitate to have him bond with Dick and Bruce just because Damian exists. Keep him with Steph, keep focusing on his technical contributions to the Family. Set him up as the emotional heart of the Bat-Family. The humble, optimistic everyman who just happens to be a tech genius.

Give him a new solo, give him a story arc where he finds out what happened to the real Kon El and Bart Allen and brings Young Justice back together. And completely destroy and replace the New 52 backstory with his original.

It's not that complicated.

Edit: Male stripper isn't a bad idea either. It could be his day job.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'd say Jason is more irrelevant, but the situation with Tim really isn't as dire as some people make it out to be. If they continued with his Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin direction he'd have been more than fine. He just didn't get the chance to smoothly transition out of the Robin identity the way Dick Grayson did, mostly because if the New 52.
> 
> Don't move him away from the Bat-Family, his relationships are strong. They shouldn't hesitate to have him bond with Dick and Bruce just because Damian exists. Keep him with Steph, keep focusing on his technical contributions to the Family. Set him up as the emotional heart of the Bat-Family. The humble, optimistic everyman who just happens to be a tech genius.
> 
> Give him a new solo, give him a story arc where he finds out what happened to the real Kon El and Bart Allen and brings Young Justice back together. And completely destroy and replace the New 52 backstory with his original.
> 
> It's not that complicated.
> 
> Edit: Male stripper isn't a bad idea either. It could be his day job.


This! Nothing else than this!

----------


## Aahz

> I'd say Jason is more irrelevant, but the situation with Tim really isn't as dire as some people make it out to be.


Hard to compare, 'Tec gave him some relevanz but since he droped out after the first arc...

And if you look at the last years since the reboot, Jason got much more focus in his books than Tim in Titans, had imo bigger guest appearances (mostly in the superman franchise), and got some good stuff out of continuity (Arkham Knight, Last Crusade), only big problem is his portrait in the Batfamily events (but Tim had in most events the same problem).

With Tim there is imo still more to rebuild in the comics, and he doesn't really has much impact in other media (and most appearances there have not much resemblance with the comic version) maybe the next season of Young Justice might help with this (in the last he didn't had a big role, was pretty generic and they showed hardly anything about him).

----------


## Atlanta96

> 


Ahh, much better. There's not a whole lot of good Tim Drake fan art (thanks to the last 5 years) but there's a few good ones.

IMG_8417.jpg
IMG_8418.jpg
IMG_8419.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Ahh, much better. There's not a whole lot of good Tim Drake fan art (thanks to the last 5 years) but there's a few good ones.
> 
> IMG_8417.jpg
> IMG_8418.jpg
> IMG_8419.jpg


That first one is fantastic!!

----------


## Atlanta96

Ok, do you guys think Tim has any chance of being in the live action Batman film? I mean, I've been thinking about it nonstop for months. It's all up to Ben Affleck, that's undeniable. And we've got a perfectly qualified actor expressing interest in the role, but could Ben possibly be interested in putting the Tim Drake character in his film?

----------


## Tigrex-22

Not going to happen.

I don't think that Affleck will introduce a new sidekick in his Movie, because the introduction and the character building of Tim, or anyone else for that matter, would take the spotlight from Batfleck and also too much time.

But I think we could see Oracle in a similar role like in the Arkham games or Nightwing for some fanservice and to play the damsel in distress.

----------


## KrustyKid

If we were to see a Robin, it would most likely be Damian. He's 'the' Robin right now. So it would make sense. Though, you just never know.

----------


## twincast

Well, I checked the real world timeline back when the rumors of a Batfleck solo film first materialized; he was 16 and 17, respectively, when A Death in the Family and A Lonely Place of Dying hit. Which is actually the worst age frame to guess if he formed an attachment to the Timster. My guess would be that if he likes Robins, he either stuck with the original or considered Jay "his", but that doesn't mean he disliked Tim (thanks to how well they handled him taking up the mantle - or cape, as it were). Besides, Geoff Johns is only half a year younger, and he loved Tim, so you never know. Either way, I'd guess his priorities Batfamily-wise within the limited timespan a movie provides would be the members already around when Joker offed Jason (plus, having Deathstroke practically screams for including Nightwing), and they kind of already handwaved Bruce lightening up again into a BvS aftermath motivation, so... :/

----------


## Atlanta96

> Not going to happen.
> 
> I don't think that Affleck will introduce a new sidekick in his Movie, because the introduction and the character building of Tim, or anyone else for that matter, would take the spotlight from Batfleck and also too much time.
> 
> But I think we could see Oracle in a similar role like in the Arkham games or Nightwing for some fanservice and to play the damsel in distress.


Winter Soldier introduced the Falcon quickly and efficiently. Iron Man 2 easily set up Black Widow. Even TDKR introduced John Blake, the closest thing to Robin in the Nolan films, quickly and without disrupting the story. I don't think time is a factor, I don't think stealing focus from Batman is a factor.




> If we were to see a Robin, it would most likely be Damian. He's 'the' Robin right now. So it would make sense. Though, you just never know.


I don't think being "the" Robin is more important than what Affleck wants. If he doesn't want to tell the Son on Batman story, if he'd rather have a more wholesome and optimistic sidekick (or none at all), that's what matters. But you're correct, we don't know.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well, I checked the real world timeline back when the rumors of a Batfleck solo film first materialized; he was 16 and 17, respectively, when A Death in the Family and A Lonely Place of Dying hit. Which is actually the worst age frame to guess if he formed an attachment to the Timster. My guess would be that if he likes Robins, he either stuck with the original or considered Jay "his", but that doesn't mean he disliked Tim (thanks to how well they handled him taking up the mantle - or cape, as it were). Besides, Geoff Johns is only half a year younger, and he loved Tim, so you never know. Either way, I'd guess his priorities Batfamily-wise within the limited timespan a movie provides would be the members already around when Joker offed Jason (plus, having Deathstroke practically screams for including Nightwing), and they kind of already handwaved Bruce lightening up again into a BvS aftermath motivation, so... :/


Ben seems like a professional who'd do a LOT of background reading for his film, so he's probably well acquainted with most of Batman's supporting characters at this point. He probably wants whatever characters fit his vision of the film, regardless of personal attachment or popularity. I can imagine him wanting to do a Batman film with more than one ally, either Nightwing and Batgirl or Nightwing and Robin most likely. Or he could just want to focus on Batman and his rogues gallery with no pesky sidekicks at all. Let's pray for the best.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim strikes me as being better suited for either an ensemble film focused on the rest of the Bat-Family outside of Bruce or a TV series. The other three Robins all have a bit more immediate glitz and glam to attract Hollywood writers going for a short but potent and easily marketable storyline. Tim's advantage is the slow build and development, and the more solo-adventure based nature of his character leaves him better equipped for either a film focused on him as a viewpoint character in some way, shape or form.

Tim was meant to be the a reconstruction of the entire concept as Robin. He wasn't a sidekick; he was a partner. He wasn't dependent on Batman; he was developed to be a solo character as much as possible. And Batfleck, at least at this stage, is still more in need of developing the viability of the Batfamily in a short span of time.

----------


## Sardorim

Ugh, Tim is screwed over yet again.

Freaking Injustice 2 reverts Damian from Nightwing to Robin, while the REAL Robin from the Injustice-verse is STILL trapped in the Negative Zone. Seems like Bruce cares less for Tim than Damian in that universe as there's no way he didn't eventually learn what happened.

Than there's Arkham series where Tim wasn't even Tim but was just a copy of Dick's Robin incarnation, he even marries Barbara.

Than there's the Animated Series where Tim was just Jason Todd.

Why do Video Games and TV Shows just keep mistreating poor Tim? Has Tim even been in any of the animated movies?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ugh, Tim is screwed over yet again.
> 
> Freaking Injustice 2 reverts Damian from Nightwing to Robin, while the REAL Robin from the Injustice-verse is STILL trapped in the Negative Zone. Seems like Bruce cares less for Tim than Damian in that universe as there's no way he didn't eventually learn what happened.
> 
> Than there's Arkham series where Tim wasn't even Tim but was just a copy of Dick's Robin incarnation, he even marries Barbara.
> 
> Than there's the Animated Series where Tim was just Jason Todd.
> 
> Why do Video Games and TV Shows just keep mistreating poor Tim? Has Tim even been in any of the animated movies?


He's in those crappy Batman Unlimited movies that exist to promote toys or something.

And I'm not happy about Damian getting the Robin role in Injustice either, I feel like that wouldn't be the case if Tim got a better showing in the Arkham games.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim strikes me as being better suited for either an ensemble film focused on the rest of the Bat-Family outside of Bruce or a TV series. The other three Robins all have a bit more immediate glitz and glam to attract Hollywood writers going for a short but potent and easily marketable storyline. Tim's advantage is the slow build and development, and the more solo-adventure based nature of his character leaves him better equipped for either a film focused on him as a viewpoint character in some way, shape or form.
> 
> Tim was meant to be the a reconstruction of the entire concept as Robin. He wasn't a sidekick; he was a partner. He wasn't dependent on Batman; he was developed to be a solo character as much as possible. And Batfleck, at least at this stage, is still more in need of developing the viability of the Batfamily in a short span of time.


All good points, but if Affleck uses a Robin it wouldn't be an EXACT adaptation of the character. Whoever ends up in the film will be tweaked and adjusted to fit the needs of the story, so the exact details of the source material don't have to hold anything back. I mean, there's little adjustments made to virtually every live action superhero adaptation. Tim could easily be a sidekick, he could easily compliment Batman just as well as Dick or Damian. If not better.

And if the character went over well, they could always make a Robin spinoff film. So maybe being a functional solo character is a selling point.

----------


## godisawesome

I agree, it's just that a Hollywood executive seems more inclined to think that Nightwing, Dead Robin, and Batman's Son are easier to market. Affleck would be the guy changing it to the underdog Tim. Having said that, Tim is also a better Robin to use for a full fledged Batfamily, since he's arguably a stronger foil for the other Robins than the rest of them are: his abilities and skills contrast and compliment Dick in the most positive ways, his job as the replacement for Jason justifies the Robins' existance and best showcases Jason's flaws, and the total reversal of temperaments with Damian is awesome.

----------


## Frontier

> He's in those crappy Batman Unlimited movies that exist to promote toys or something.
> 
> And I'm not happy about Damian getting the Robin role in Injustice either, I feel like that wouldn't be the case if Tim got a better showing in the Arkham games.


Ah...I thought those were really fun (I'd totally watch a _Batman Unlimited_ cartoon)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Though Tim as Red Robin there was definitely more "standard Robin" then notably Tim Drake, even compared to his actual tenure as Robin in the comics. I guess the same could be said for Damian in that series, but they kept at least more of the trappings you would expect from Damian then they did for Tim, I felt. 

Though I think Yuri Lowenthal is an ideal pick for a Tim VA   :Smile: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> I agree, it's just that a Hollywood executive seems more inclined to think that Nightwing, Dead Robin, and Batman's Son are easier to market. Affleck would be the guy changing it to the underdog Tim. Having said that, Tim is also a better Robin to use for a full fledged Batfamily, since he's arguably a stronger foil for the other Robins than the rest of them are: his abilities and skills contrast and compliment Dick in the most positive ways, his job as the replacement for Jason justifies the Robins' existance and best showcases Jason's flaws, and the total reversal of temperaments with Damian is awesome.


Exactly, Affleck would be the only person in Hollywood to advocate for Tim. Hopefully he's smart enough to see the advantages of using the character, although he could understandably be more interested in Damian and his relationships. But Damian is more difficult to adapt because of his aggression and exaggerated traits, so anything could happen.

I don't think there will ever be an extended Bat-Family in these films, mainly because Affleck is too old to play Batman for a long period of time. So the relationships in the films/film will be limited. This could be important.

----------


## The Whovian

> Ok, do you guys think Tim has any chance of being in the live action Batman film?


Not a chance at all, unfortunately.

----------


## KrustyKid

c960a9a53363136a1ab4b8490fcc095e-dapvv23.jpg

Another nice shot

----------


## KrustyKid

Here are a couple more I came across with his rebirth suit.

january_11__tim_drake_by_alessadr-dav0wb9.jpg

redrobin_lr_by_stratosmacca-d9wqita.jpg

ErzaDrake.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Here are a couple more I came across with his rebirth suit.
> 
> january_11__tim_drake_by_alessadr-dav0wb9.jpg
> 
> redrobin_lr_by_stratosmacca-d9wqita.jpg
> 
> ErzaDrake.jpg


The second one is great. I'd like to see more Rebirth Tim fan art.

----------


## shadowsgirl

314664c61fc63cf0722464ff0af32cf9.jpg

669461e96eeb0f0c36f5c6cdf5cca1ab.jpg

tim_tumblr_n8t55pXuqo1sqntedo1_12805.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

tumblr_o7tmu2UjiQ1sgldrjo1_1280.jpg

red_robin_by_kevzter-d9didpe.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4381ebc2c5246b72977852ca602156cd.jpg

7713f825547208c59fbd92984db7025d.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I want to hear all of your crazy thoughts! Whether it be male stripper, swimming pool guard, or even a hot dog stand boy.


Here is male stripper Tim for you.  :Cool: 

615ce21d059efacb293c557f15a7aa0a.jpg

batman_tim_drake_2_by_f19850928-d6r5f5b.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

no comment....  :Wink: 

tim_tumblr_nchg1gRqrW1rqgtvdo1_Local virgin Tim.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> Here is male stripper Tim for you. 
> 
> Attachment 44262
> 
> Attachment 44263


Tim already getting his game on in front of the mirror, lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim already getting his game on in front of the mirror, lol


I can raise the stakes  :Cool: 

red_robin_strip_tease_by_samuraihimenoji-d32ma7e.jpg

timmy_by_f19850928-d8cpyeo.jpg

timmy_s_holiday_by_f19850928-d6mjn6v.jpg

Tim is a real professional, I foresee a great future for him in the male stripper business  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> I can raise the stakes 
> 
> red_robin_strip_tease_by_samuraihimenoji-d32ma7e.jpg
> 
> timmy_by_f19850928-d8cpyeo.jpg
> 
> timmy_s_holiday_by_f19850928-d6mjn6v.jpg
> 
> Tim is a real professional, I foresee a great future for him in the male stripper business


Lol, I think he might be getting ready for his life guard duties in that last one.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Lol, I think he might be getting ready for his life guard duties in that last one.


Tim can do anything  :Wink:  And some people say he is the most useless and irrelevant member of the Batfamily....  :Big Grin:

----------


## Atlanta96

> I can raise the stakes 
> 
> red_robin_strip_tease_by_samuraihimenoji-d32ma7e.jpg
> 
> timmy_by_f19850928-d8cpyeo.jpg
> 
> timmy_s_holiday_by_f19850928-d6mjn6v.jpg
> 
> Tim is a real professional, I foresee a great future for him in the male stripper business


Damn! Maybe if Tim showed his goods more often he wouldn't get so much unnecessary hate  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Lol, I think he might be getting ready for his life guard duties in that last one.


He looks like he's auditioning for Free! Iwatobi Swim Club  :Smile: 

By the way there is, as I just discovered, a LOT of TimxKon fan art out there. I'm not surprised one bit.

----------


## shadowsgirl

He is too hot  :Big Grin:  A lot of people couldn't handle his sexiness, so they hate him with all their passion.  :Wink:   :Stick Out Tongue: 

page_12.jpg

----------


## fanfan13

> He looks like he's auditioning for Free! Iwatobi Swim Club 
> 
> By the way there is, as I just discovered, a LOT of TimxKon fan art out there. I'm not surprised one bit.


I haven't read most of Tim's comics yet (I'm still new to all these DC things) so I have no idea what kind of relationahip he has with Kon, but I once saw an image of him hugging Kon (it was probably from one of Red Robin issues?) and I was like "wow, this is sooo gay. Are they always like this?" LOL.

Well now I am curious. Someone please enlighten me?

----------


## josai21

> I haven't read most of Tim's comics yet so I still have no idea what kind of relationahip he has with Kon, but I once saw an image of him hugging Kon (it was probably from one of Red Robin issues?) and I was like "wow, this is sooo gay. Are they always like this?" LOL.
> 
> Well now I am curious. Someone please enlighten me?


Tim and Kon are Bros. They've been best friends since their young justice days. 

That coupled with Tim's character trait of being a virgin (by choice, though the N52 removed that character trait), lead many to ship the pairing.

Personally, I like the view of Tim of being incredibly old fashioned when it comes to women. That aspect of his character was back when safe sex/abstinence really first started becoming pushed and the creators waned to encourage that. 
I personally don't think he's gay; plus it's nice to see bros just being bros

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim and Kon are Bros. They've been best friends since their young justice days. 
> 
> That coupled with Tim's character trait of being a virgin (by choice, though the N52 removed that character trait), lead many to ship the pairing.
> 
> Personally, I like the view of Tim of being incredibly old fashioned when it comes to women. That aspect of his character was back when safe sex/abstinence really first started becoming pushed and the creators waned to encourage that. 
> I personally don't think he's gay; plus it's nice to see bros just being bros


Pretty much this, they're just really close. Plus both have only shown interest in women.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I haven't read most of Tim's comics yet (I'm still new to all these DC things) so I have no idea what kind of relationahip he has with Kon, but I once saw an image of him hugging Kon (it was probably from one of Red Robin issues?) and I was like "wow, this is sooo gay. Are they always like this?" LOL.
> 
> Well now I am curious. Someone please enlighten me?


They're just really good friends.

page_15.jpg

page_16.jpg

page_17.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

page_18.jpg

page_19.jpg

page_20.jpg

----------


## josai21

@Shadowsgirl

Ugh...thanks for reminding me of how awesome the Red Robin run was. So much better than Lobdell's Titan's crap.

Even Tynion's Detective was only just starting to return to that level of depth Tim's character had. 

le sigh.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> @Shadowsgirl
> 
> Ugh...thanks for reminding me of how awesome the Red Robin run was. So much better than Lobdell's Titan's crap.
> 
> Even Tynion's Detective was only just starting to return to that level of depth Tim's character had. 
> 
> le sigh.


It's from Adventure comics (2009) #3, but yeah, the Red Robin series was epic.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I haven't read most of Tim's comics yet (I'm still new to all these DC things) so I have no idea what kind of relationahip he has with Kon, but I once saw an image of him hugging Kon (it was probably from one of Red Robin issues?) and I was like "wow, this is sooo gay. Are they always like this?" LOL.
> 
> Well now I am curious. Someone please enlighten me?


They're just friends, but the writing of their friendship was always a bit on the slashy side. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but in many of their interactions they came off as extremely smitten for each other. But it was a good relationship and something the New 52 really missed out on.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Its guy love, thats all it is. 

But yeah, they definitely have a bromance going on.

----------


## fanfan13

I googled it. The scene I saw is this:

tumblr_inline_n3pvvpQi3h1svh66q.jpg

Although you guys most likely already had an idea about it only by the description. 

Ah, okay. I believe they are only close friends because you guys know him a lot more than me. Oh yeah I just remember. Didn't Tim use to have relationship with Stephanie? And with a girl named Tamara too?

I'll also try to start reading Red Robin then. The way you said it sounds good.

----------


## Aahz

> I agree, it's just that a Hollywood executive seems more inclined to think that Nightwing, Dead Robin, and Batman's Son are easier to market. Affleck would be the guy changing it to the underdog Tim. Having said that, Tim is also a better Robin to use for a full fledged Batfamily, since he's arguably a stronger foil for the other Robins than the rest of them are: his abilities and skills contrast and compliment Dick in the most positive ways, his job as the replacement for Jason justifies the Robins' existance and best showcases Jason's flaws, and the total reversal of temperaments with Damian is awesome.


I still don't see the comic version of Damian work in the DCEU, if they bring him they bring him in they will have to tone him down in some way.

And the with Jasons flaws (and Tim not having them) is also not that true when you look at the original comics imo (but I think that is a discussion we already had).

----------


## twincast

It's a heavy bromance (particularly since Geoff Johns's stint on Teen Titans, and during which practically at the complete expense of all other relationships save for a bit of Cassie) that would make for a great romance in case Tim/Steph and Kon/Cassie aren't available/possible.

In other words, it lends/lent itself really well to slash fiction, but there's no actual queer code.

And yeah, comics Damian (not to mention animated Damian, blegh) wouldn't work in the DCEU, not even with it on full Snyderoids, which gives me some hope.

----------


## Frontier

> I still don't see the comic version of Damian work in the DCEU, if they bring him they bring him in they will have to tone him down in some way.
> 
> And the with Jasons flaws (and Tim not having them) is also not that true when you look at the original comics imo (but I think that is a discussion we already had).


And age him up, probably to around the same age, at least in-universe, as he appears to be in _Batman Unlimited_, where he seems to be an older teenager.

----------


## Drako

> I googled it. The scene I saw is this:
> 
> tumblr_inline_n3pvvpQi3h1svh66q.jpg
> 
> Although you guys most likely already had an idea about it only by the description. 
> 
> Ah, okay. I believe they are only close friends because you guys know him a lot more than me. Oh yeah I just remember. Didn't Tim use to have relationship with Stephanie? And with a girl named Tamara too?
> 
> I'll also try to start reading Red Robin then. The way you said it sounds good.


There is a context to this hug, it's not like they did this everytime the cross paths with each other. Kon was dead and he was Tim best friend for years. When he came back from the grave, that was their first interaction. 

Also, the others pages posted here was from Adventure Comics, Kon's book.
It was written by Geoff Johns and restablished Superboy's relanshionship with his friends. The second issue Conner and Cassie got back together, the third one was to make him and Tim to be buddys again, and to erase some problems (like Tim and Cassie dating etc)

----------


## Aahz

there was also this scene. :Cool:

----------


## shadowsgirl

They had problems for a while, but they became best friends eventually.

page_33b.jpg

page_33a.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

page_1.jpg

page_2.jpg

page_3.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

page_4.jpg

page_5.jpg

page_6.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

You can see, they are totally straight  :Big Grin: 

page_13.jpg

page_14.jpg

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## fanfan13

OMG I like their interactions in those pictures. Are they from Adventure Comics? Seriously haha "you can go bald" omg Tim. Btw Kon is like Superman's and Luthor's lovechild it's scary. Sadly he's not in the Rebirth isn't he? Because Jon is Rebirth's Superboy now.

----------


## Drako

No, they are from Geoff Johns Teen Titans.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> OMG I like their interactions in those pictures. Are they from Adventure Comics? Seriously haha "you can go bald" omg Tim. Btw Kon is like Superman's and Luthor's lovechild it's scary. Sadly he's not in the Rebirth isn't he? Because Jon is Rebirth's Superboy now.


The last pictures are from Teen Titans V3 (2003-2011). Issue #1, #2 and #6.
Yeah, it's sad, but the truth is, the real Tim and Conner died in 2011, thanks to the New52. They were awesome, but that stupid reboot destroyed them completely. You should read the Young Justice and the Teen Titans series with them, I loved their friendship.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You can see, they are totally straight 
> 
> page_13.jpg
> 
> page_14.jpg


Not long ago I really wanted DC to cut to the chase and make Tim and Kon a legit couple, but now I think it's actually more cute and entertaining if their relationship is ambiguous. And it's not like we don't have tons of fan fiction with them as an item  :Smile: 

I really, really miss those Pre-Flashpoint Tim/Kon interactions. Almost as much as Tim's old personality in general, actually. If DC knows what they're doing, they have to restore that bromance.

----------


## Atlanta96

IMG_8435.jpg
IMG_8436.jpg

Edit: Is this real?  If so, what issue is it?
IMG_8437.jpg

----------


## twincast

> Edit: Is this real?  If so, what issue is it?
> IMG_8437.jpg


The panels are taken from actual issues, namely a 90s Robin one and a 00s Adventure Comics one, but, no, this isn't real.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Not long ago I really wanted DC to cut to the chase and make Tim and Kon a legit couple, but now I think it's actually more cute and entertaining if their relationship is ambiguous. And it's not like we don't have tons of fan fiction with them as an item 
> 
> I really, really miss those Pre-Flashpoint Tim/Kon interactions. Almost as much as Tim's old personality in general, actually. If DC knows what they're doing, they have to restore that bromance.


Tim had a ton of love interests over the years, so I always found strange the whole Tim/Kon ship. The blame is completely on his virginity, it was sweet at the beginning, but then it became really awkward. 
For me, the dark and brooding Tim was the perfect Tim. His personality became so complex, so interesting, and he wasn't afraid to cross some lines. His father's death was a huge milestone is his life, it was a really important event. Rebirth Tim is nothing like the Pre-Flashpoint Tim, he is too happy and carefree, I don't like it. New52 Tim was horrible, he acted like a total different person, but Rebirth Tim is more like Tim from the 90s. The paranoid, depressive Tim is the best Tim, because he sees everything in grey. This new, optimistic Tim from Detective is a complete step back, there isn't enough depth in him.

----------


## fanfan13

> The last pictures are from Teen Titans V3 (2003-2011). Issue #1, #2 and #6.
> Yeah, it's sad, but the truth is, the real Tim and Conner died in 2011, thanks to the New52. They were awesome, but that stupid reboot destroyed them completely. You should read the Young Justice and the Teen Titans series with them, I loved their friendship.


oh, I have no idea. So New 52 altered their characters so much. Is it that bad? Ugh, I'm really curious now, but to read all Tim's stories pre New 52 seems... a lot. But anyway thanks, at least I know where to start when I want to get to know more Tim and Kon.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> oh, I have no idea. So New 52 altered their characters so much. Is it that bad? Ugh, I'm really curious now, but to read all Tim's stories pre New 52 seems... a lot. But anyway thanks, at least I know where to start when I want to get to know more Tim and Kon.


Yes, it is that bad. Tim lost everything, his origin, his complete history as Robin, his personality, his friends, his whole life. He actually became a totally different person. If you want to know the real Tim, you should read his first minis and then his solo series. Robin I., Robin II: The Joker's Wild!, Robin III: Cry of the Huntress, Robin (01 - 183) (1994-2009) and of course the Red Robin series. There are a lot of interesting comics with him, these are just the basic stuff.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I still don't see the comic version of Damian work in the DCEU, if they bring him they bring him in they will have to tone him down in some way.


Thank you, a lot of people underestimate how unfitting Damian's personality is for live action, and how drastically different he'd have to be for it to work. You can kind of see this with Injustice Damian, who isn't much like his comic counterpart, and I'm not even sure videogame Damian will be likable. Including Robin in ore live action films is a huge risk, and Damian is the riskiest of all.

It doesn't make much sense to age up and tone down Damian for film when there's already an older, more believable character who would make a good live action Robin.

----------


## Atlanta96

> oh, I have no idea. So New 52 altered their characters so much. Is it that bad? Ugh, I'm really curious now, but to read all Tim's stories pre New 52 seems... a lot. But anyway thanks, at least I know where to start when I want to get to know more Tim and Kon.


New 52 Tim Drake (and Kon El, and Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark) were so bad that they killed thousands of readers faith in the Teen Titans franchise. Many readers aren't interested in the new Teen Titans run at all, because of how horrible the last 2 were, and how badly they screwed over those characters. It takes a special kind of bad to kill people's faith in a franchise for good, those stories managed to do it.

I mean, TT had a bit of support at the start of New 52, with many readers (myself included) excited for a new take on this team. It ended up taking everything great, or likable, about those guys and flushing it. Tim was an arrogant, insufferable smartass with zero likability or interesting traits. Kon was an overly aggressive, emotionally detached, violent block of wood. Bart Allen turned out to be a tragic, terrorist revolutionary named Bar-Torr, and was also extremely annoying. It was...pretty darn bad.

If you want good, recent stories focusing on those characters, wait for DC to reboot them. Stay far away from their New 52 appearances, they are soul crushing.

----------


## fanfan13

> If you want good, recent stories focusing on those characters, wait for DC to reboot them. Stay far away from their New 52 appearances, they are soul crushing.


Thank you. I will be careful  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Thank you. I will be careful


Besides everything Shadowsgirl recommended, if you want good Tim Drake appearances you should check out Young Justice (the 90s comic), Geoff Johns Teen Titans, and any old Batman story written by Chuck Dixon (like Knightfall).

----------


## The Whovian

> Besides everything Shadowsgirl recommended, if you want good Tim Drake appearances you should check out Young Justice (the 90s comic), *Geoff Johns Teen Titans*, and any old Batman story written by Chuck Dixon (like Knightfall).


Really this and anything by Dixon.

----------


## Vinsanity

I would read the New 52 to get another perspective of Tim. There are different variations of Tim like every other character. So worth reading and seeing it for yourself. A lot of people dislike it but it is what it is.

----------


## Aahz

> I want to hear all of your crazy thoughts! Whether it be male stripper, swimming pool guard, or even a hot dog stand boy. If given the choice, what direction would you take Drake? What direction do you predict will be taken for Tim?


Might not be the most inventive idea, but I think putting him in collage (where wanted to go in 'Tec) and give some focus to his civilian live and family would be the best option, thats imo the thing they need to reestablish before they do something else.
Bringing back King Snake and Lynx (but maybe not Shiva) to restore something from his pre flashpoint history would also help.

----------


## adrikito

> IMG_8435.jpg
> IMG_8436.jpg


This is my favorite RED ROBIN costume.. I prefer this costume before his N52 and Rebirth Costume.. Do you share the same opinion?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> TIM FANS, this is your favorite Tim costume? 
> 
> I see a little of TIM DRAKE comic and Steph as batgirl with Tim Drake in the comic and is my favorite RED ROBIN costume.. I prefer this costume before his N52 and Rebirth Costume.


Yes, I loved this costume. I don't care what Conner says, Tim is a cowl kinda guy. This costume was badass.

----------


## Aahz

I prefer the Unternet costume.

----------


## Drako

> I prefer the Unternet costume.


I like this one too, but looks too much with Nightwing.

----------


## godisawesome

> I would read the New 52 to get another perspective of Tim. There are different variations of Tim like every other character. So worth reading and seeing it for yourself. A lot of people dislike it but it is what it is.


To back up Vinsanity's point, even if I largely disagree with it, the early New 52 Teen Titans issues flowed at a different rate and read quite differently than the later runs that wound up irritating people, so you might want to test with them first. I'd even give a thumbs up to the Wonder Girl arc right before Death of the Family, since Fabian Nicieza (writer for the bulk of Red Robin and the Robin solo's finale) scripted those issues and his humor and voice for Tim shine through, and since it's not bad. 

The main points of contention among most Tim Drake fans are present in the zero issue and the somewhat bloated Culling arc, but only really hit full bore in the last half of the volume 1 when we get past DOTF and get on to a mess of a Raven arc where there's a strong implication Tim and Cassie are victims of sexual assault with each other, and editorial meddling seems to careen the book right off the rails for the rest of its run. Volume 2 has pacing issues in its first arcs as well as more executive meddling, but I've heard good things about the lame duck arcs that came out when Rebirth began and we knew the book was doomed. You should really judge the series by yourself, though if you're like me, you may find yourself reading spoiler reviews for issues you're leery about.

Oh, and put me down as a fan of the cowled Red Robin suit.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Oh, and put me down as a fan of the cowled Red Robin suit.


Yup, particularly To's version where he had the spider-man expressive eyes.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This is my favorite RED ROBIN costume.. I prefer this costume before his N52 and Rebirth Costume.. Do you share the same opinion?


I prefer the Rebirth costume, but that could just be for symbolic reasons, since it represents his transition from the painfully bad New 52 Tim to the more satisfying and likable Rebirth Tim. But anything is better than his New 52 Hawkman wannabe costume.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I would read the New 52 to get another perspective of Tim. There are different variations of Tim like every other character. So worth reading and seeing it for yourself. A lot of people dislike it but it is what it is.


Fair point, but I wouldn't recommend reading any of Tim's New 52 appearances until you've read ALL of his important Pre-Flashpoint series. Remember, a lot of readers hate Tim entirely because of his New 52 version. If I'd never picked up Red Robin or Geoff Johns Teen Titans just before the New 52 started I might have become one of his haters myself.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I prefer the Rebirth costume, but that could just be for symbolic reasons, since it represents his transition from the painfully bad New 52 Tim to the more satisfying and likable Rebirth Tim. But anything is better than his New 52 Hawkman wannabe costume.


I don't mind the rebirth costume, but its very much a Robin costume. To's version of the Red Robin costume seemed like more of a clear step forward for the character.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't mind the rebirth costume, but its very much a Robin costume. To's version of the Red Robin costume seemed like more of a clear step forward for the character.


I think I'd have liked it better if his hair was exposed, I've seen alternate versions like that which looked better IMO.

----------


## shadowsgirl

It's just too damn funny  :Big Grin:  Male stripper Tim swings into action again.

tumblr_o5tlkylPQg1ulimkso1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I prefer the Unternet costume.


It's really similar to Dick's costume, but it looks good

7fa677775e956c7dd0d2a0c194ba0975-d56f7ap.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> This is my favorite RED ROBIN costume.. I prefer this costume before his N52 and Rebirth Costume.. Do you share the same opinion?


I like this costume a lot too. But I also like the Rebirth costume

----------


## shadowsgirl

I loved Lynx and Tam, I hope they will come back. Tim would be happy, too.

tam_lynx_can__t_help_it_by_colours07-d34265n.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Does anyone remember Darla Aquista? She was an interesting character, especially after she became the Warlock's Daughter. She joined the Shadowpact, too.

robin_125_darla2.jpg

robin_125_darla3.jpg

----------


## Vinsanity

> I prefer the Unternet costume.



Yeah me too but I love the Hawkman knock off.






> Fair point, but I wouldn't recommend reading any of Tim's New 52 appearances until you've read ALL of his important Pre-Flashpoint series. Remember, a lot of readers hate Tim entirely because of his New 52 version. If I'd never picked up Red Robin or Geoff Johns Teen Titans just before the New 52 started I might have become one of his haters myself.



See the thing is that I've read Tim since like YJ and each solo, team book and stuff. There are parts I like and don't like. Do I like a version? No, not really. I like them all but there are stuff I dislike a lot. New 52 provided Tim with some good stuff and some bad stuff. Same can be said about everything character. I say it is worth reading just to get another version. If the person doesn't like it well they don't like it. Can't please everyone.

----------


## Atlanta96

I thought of a way for Tom King to handle the Bat-Family in his next arc that doesn't make Tim feel left out. As long as he embraces the fact that the Family is broken, and makes it clear that they're missing someone important from their ranks, it shouldn't be too frustrating having Tim absent. And it would set up Tim's return as the moment that FINALLY brings the Family back to a happy state, which would be awesome.

Cause I don't know about everyone else but I really don't want to see the Bat-Family getting along happily, for the first time in years, right after they stuck Tim in limbo. That would be depressing.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I thought of a way for Tom King to handle the Bat-Family in his next arc that doesn't make Tim feel left out. As long as he embraces the fact that the Family is broken, and makes it clear that they're missing someone important from their ranks, it shouldn't be too frustrating having Tim absent. And it would set up Tim's return as the moment that FINALLY brings the Family back to a happy state, which would be awesome.
> 
> Cause I don't know about everyone else but I really don't want to see the Bat-Family getting along happily, for the first time in years, right after they stuck Tim in limbo. That would be depressing.


KNowing those stories. Somehow Batman does something shitty and we are back at square one of unhappiness.

----------


## Atlanta96

> KNowing those stories. Somehow Batman does something shitty and we are back at square one of unhappiness.


This is the Rebirth DCU, not the New 52. Different rules.

----------


## Caivu

> I thought of a way for Tom King to handle the Bat-Family in his next arc that doesn't make Tim feel left out. As long as he embraces the fact that the Family is broken, and makes it clear that they're missing someone important from their ranks, it shouldn't be too frustrating having Tim absent. And it would set up Tim's return as the moment that FINALLY brings the Family back to a happy state, which would be awesome.
> 
> Cause I don't know about everyone else but I really don't want to see the Bat-Family getting along happily, for the first time in years, right after they stuck Tim in limbo. That would be depressing.


Don't most of them already get along pretty well?  :Confused: 

It's not like they've all got metaphorical knives at each other's throats or anything. I can only thing of a few pairings that are lower than neutral.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Don't most of them already get along pretty well? 
> 
> It's not like they've all got metaphorical knives at each other's throats or anything. I can only thing of a few pairings that are lower than neutral.


They occasionally got along in individual pairs during the New 52, but not as a Family. When the Robins all got together it was joyless and unpleasant. Death of the Family, B&RE, Robin War, all depressing, ugly, and frustrating stories. And it feels wrong for Tom King to make the whole Bat-Family start getting along as a unit with Tim gone. He should acknowledge that there's a glaring absence from the Family during his crossover and not just overlook it and pretend everything is hunky dory. 

Like I said, he should set it up so Tim's return is the catalyst for the Robins becoming Family again as opposed to doing it without him. So Tim won't seem so damn irrelevant to the Bat-Family anymore.

----------


## fanfan13

> Like I said, he should set it up so Tim's return is the catalyst for the Robins becoming Family again as opposed to doing it without him. So Tim won't seem so damn irrelevant to the Bat-Family anymore.


That looks like a nice idea! I hope they will make it go that way.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I hope Tim's encounter with Ra's will come back into continuity. 

tim and ras al ghul_2.jpg

tim and ras al ghul_3.jpg

tim and ras al ghul_4.jpg

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## Atlanta96

> That looks like a nice idea! I hope they will make it go that way.


Me too, I miss relevant Tim.

And knowing the Bat-Boys would get their own arc with Red Robin absent always got on my nerves, hopefully King knows how to handle it.

----------


## KrustyKid

This is a good one.

bat_sitting_by_scarykrystal-da6cbbk.jpg

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## The Whovian

> This is a good one.
> 
> bat_sitting_by_scarykrystal-da6cbbk.jpg


LOL, I like that

----------


## Atlanta96

I miss Tim. I could handle his absence for a while but now it's starting to really bug me. Having a fun, well written DCU with no Tim Drake just feels wrong, if they keep him in limbo past March I might take a break from Bat-books overall until he's out.

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## KrustyKid

> I miss Tim. I could handle his absence for a while but now it's starting to really bug me. Having a fun, well written DCU with no Tim Drake just feels wrong, if they keep him in limbo past March I might take a break from Bat-books overall until he's out.


If I had to take a guess I don't think we'll see him back until anywhere from November-January 2018.

----------


## Atlanta96

> If I had to take a guess I don't think we'll see him back until anywhere from November-January 2018.


I think Tom King said in a podcast that Tim would be back sooner, once the numbering of Batman reaches the 20s. Good enough for me, but if there's another Bat-Family teamup without Tim before his return that would really piss me off.

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## KrustyKid

> I think Tom King said in a podcast that Tim would be back sooner, once the numbering of Batman reaches the 20s. Good enough for me, but if there's another Bat-Family teamup without Tim before his return that would really piss me off.


Oops, I meant Aug-Nov of this year. Given that the big event starts this summer I'd imagine Tim would return somewhere at the end of it.

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## Atlanta96

> Oops, I meant Aug-Nov of this year. Given that the big event starts this summer I'd imagine Tim would return somewhere at the end of it.


Ideally he'd return at the end of I Am Bane so it doesn't look like Tim's being screwed out of the Bat-Family but whatever. Nothing's perfect. I mean, this character has had so many bad breaks recently, what harm is one more going to do?  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

I hope when Tim comes back, he will get a solo series. Actually, he deserves 2 after everything he went through the past 5 years. Maybe Ives could show up somewhere, he was a really good friend to Tim.

Robin_107.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

Tim’s real father was entertaining, although I hope the New52 one just a fake.  If this new one wants to stay, he should acquire some personality ASAP.

Total Justice 01 (1996)_a.jpg

Total Justice 01 (1996)_b.jpg

Total Justice 01 (1996)_c.jpg

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## DragonPiece

> Ideally he'd return at the end of I Am Bane so it doesn't look like Tim's being screwed out of the Bat-Family but whatever. Nothing's perfect. I mean, this character has had so many bad breaks recently, what harm is one more going to do?


He'll probably show up in the superman reborn event, since Oz is involved.

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## KrustyKid

> Tims real father was entertaining, although I hope the New52 one just a fake.  If this new one wants to stay, he should acquire some personality ASAP.
> 
> Attachment 44561
> 
> Attachment 44562
> 
> Attachment 44563


And his mother. I'd like for both of them to be more than background characters.

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## shadowsgirl

> And his mother. I'd like for both of them to be more than background characters.


Well, we barely knew his mother, because she died too early, so yeah, it's a second chance for Janet to prove her worth. 
I love this scene, it's from the Contagion storyline, when Tim was dying from The Clench. 

The Batman Chronicles 004_a.jpg

The Batman Chronicles 004_b.jpg

The Batman Chronicles 004_c.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

The Batman Chronicles 004_d.jpg

The Batman Chronicles 004_e.jpg

10char

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## Atlanta96

Just as I feared, some people are using the Batboys at lunch scene to claim Tim was ruining the Bat-Family. "They're finally getting along and all it took was getting rid of Tim". "Drake was screwing up the Family all along". I didn't think a funny scene of the Robins bonding could make me so depressed but King managed to do it.

It wasnt his intention but King made Tim more irrelevant to the Family than ever before with that issue. I'm so disappointed with him. And some of the blame lands on Duke for essentially replacing Tim among the Robins, god I hate Duke.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Just as I feared, some people are using the Batboys at lunch scene to claim Tim was ruining the Bat-Family. "They're finally getting along and all it took was getting rid of Tim". "Drake was screwing up the Family all along". I didn't think a funny scene of the Robins bonding could make me so depressed but King managed to do it.
> 
> It wasnt his intention but King made Tim more irrelevant to the Family than ever before with that issue. I'm so disappointed with him. And some of the blame lands on Duke for essentially replacing Tim among the Robins, god I hate Duke.


Maybe you could explain to the people there why Tim is an important part of the family. I tried, but it's like talking to a wall.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think having Tim there would've added anything to that scene, but then again I wasn't really crazy about the Batboys at lunch scene in general. 

If Tim were there we probably would've just had the Eternal/Robin Wars dynamics re-hashed again, and I was under the impression people weren't too crazy about those?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Maybe you could explain to the people there why Tim is an important part of the family. I tried, but it's like talking to a wall.


You're right, it is talking to a wall. I'm happier letting them have their opinions, and patiently waiting for Tim to win over fans on his own once he comes back. I know he will.

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## Atlanta96

> I don't think having Tim there would've added anything to that scene, but then again I wasn't really crazy about the Batboys at lunch scene in general. 
> 
> If Tim were there we probably would've just had the Eternal/Robin Wars dynamics re-hashed again, and I was under the impression people weren't too crazy about those?


You're reinforcing his point that Tim was irrelevant to the Family. If you believe he wouldn't have added to the scene, and that his involvement was what made the New 52 dynamics of the Family so terrible, then it sounds like you want him gone just as much as they do.

Edit: I agree that Tim's antagonistic relationship with Damian didn't allow for fun Robin interactions, but that was more Damian's fault since he started the rivalry. Competent writers would have improved the situation instead of doubling down on rivalry and hate.

----------


## Frontier

> You're reinforcing his point that Tim was irrelevant to the Family. If you believe he wouldn't have added to the scene, and that his involvement was what made the New 52 dynamics of the Family so terrible, then it sounds like you want him gone just as much as they do.


That wasn't what I was trying to say, I just don't think there was anything significant to that family interaction that any of the Robins contributed to, let alone if Tim were there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> That wasn't what I was trying to say, I just don't think there was anything significant to that family interaction that any of the Robins contributed to, let alone if Tim were there .


But people are still using it to claim Tim is worthless. It's ammunition for his detractors, a chance to say "Look how much happier the Bat-Family is after Tim left". It sucks, and King let the character down by excluding him like this.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> You're right, it is talking to a wall. I'm happier letting them have their opinions, and patiently waiting for Tim to win over fans on his own once he comes back. I know he will.


I hope so. A lot of people dislike him because of the New52. He was an awesome character, but the reboot took everything from him.

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## JasonTodd428

> But people are still using it to claim Tim is worthless. It's ammunition for his detractors, a chance to say "Look how much happier the Bat-Family is after Tim left". It sucks, and King let the character down by excluding him like this.


I'd be more apt to say that it was Tynion and editorial that let Tim down here. They are, after all, the ones who came up with the brilliant idea to bench him even if it might lead to a big role for him in the overarching Rebirth plot line. THAT is the reason he wasn't available to be in the scene himself and that has nothing to do with King or how relevant Tim is or isn't to the family.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I hope so. A lot of people dislike him because of the New52. He was an awesome character, but the reboot took everything from him.


I think a lot of his detractors are big Damian fans who feel like they have to hate Tim to support Damian. I mean, I can like both characters at once. And Damian has done WAY more harm to Tim than vice-versa.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Just as I feared, some people are using the Batboys at lunch scene to claim Tim was ruining the Bat-Family. "They're finally getting along and all it took was getting rid of Tim". "Drake was screwing up the Family all along". I didn't think a funny scene of the Robins bonding could make me so depressed but King managed to do it.
> 
> It wasnt his intention but King made Tim more irrelevant to the Family than ever before with that issue. I'm so disappointed with him. And some of the blame lands on Duke for essentially replacing Tim among the Robins, god I hate Duke.


While it sucks Tim wasn't there. I won't hate Duke because of that fact, it's not his fault Tim got zapped away, lol. I've actually come to like Duke. Not more than Drake or any of ther other Robin boys for that matter.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'd be more apt to say that it was Tynion and editorial that let Tim down here. They are, after all, the ones who came up with the brilliant idea to bench him even if it might lead to a big role for him in the overarching Rebirth plot line. THAT is the reason he wasn't available to be in the scene himself and that has nothing to do with King.


You could be right, and to be clear I don't hate Tom King over this I'm only disappointed, but since these stories are planned so far ahead I wish he A) Postponed I Am Bane until Tim got back, B) Wrote it in a way that didn't make the Robins look happier and more likable with Tim gone and Duke in his place.

That's what really upsets me more than his absence, the fact that they look better off without him. Robins+Tim=bad writing, arguments, and hate. Robins-Tim=fun likable superhero family. That's not right.




> While it sucks Tim wasn't there. I won't hate Duke because of that fact, it's not his fault Tim got zapped away, lol. I've actually come to like Duke. Not more than Drake or any of ther other Robin boys for that matter.


But he's directly harming Tim by taking his place among the Robins. They're so similar in character that they make the other redundant, Dukes role in the Family makes Tim obsolete. He was even a flat out replacement for Tim this week. Not a coincidence there's a noticeable overlap between Tim Drake detractors and Duke fans, they harm each other.

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## skyvolt2000

> But people are still using it to claim Tim is worthless. It's ammunition for his detractors, a chance to say "Look how much happier the Bat-Family is after Tim left". It sucks, and King let the character down by excluding him like this.


But who has said that? Where are those comments?

Tim is not there because someone named Johns seems to have a plan for him.

This is not like Wally West of John Stewart where someone doesn't care for him and would rather him not be around.

This is more take him out of the picture in order to avoid spoilers of Johns stuff or have Johns dictate what you can and can't do with Tim in the book. 

This Bane story might not be good to do after that Batman summer event and who knows what they have planned for King in the future.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I think a lot of his detractors are big Damian fans who feel like they have to hate Tim to support Damian. I mean, I can like both characters at once. And Damian has done WAY more harm to Tim than vice-versa.


I never understood that. Tim didn't do anything against Damian, like you said, it was the other way around. Still, his fans hate Tim without reason. Being a Tim fan was very painful in the past years. It's not just the comics, it's the animated universe, too. The Young Justice was Tim's team, and when the creators used Dick in the show.... it was a hard blow. And there are the new movies, all concentrating to Damian, while Tim doesn't even exist in that universe. When I saw they replaced Tim with Damian in the Batman Unlimited series, I just gave up. Those movies aren't too good, but they were the only places where Tim appeared.

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## skyvolt2000

> But he's directly harming Tim by taking his place among the Robins. They're so similar in character that they make the other redundant, Dukes role in the Family makes Tim obsolete. He was even a flat out replacement for Tim this week. Not a coincidence there's a noticeable overlap between Tim Drake detractors and Duke fans, they harm each other.


We have gone so long with Duke bashing let not start.

Tim still has a place and his is way different than Duke.

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## skyvolt2000

> I never understood that. Tim didn't do anything against Damian, like you said, it was the other way around. Still, his fans hate Tim without reason. Being a Tim fan was very painful in the past years. It's not just the comics, it's the animated universe, too. The Young Justice was Tim's team, and when the creators used Dick in the show.... it was a hard blow. And there are the new movies, all concentrating to Damian, while Tim doesn't even exist in that universe. When I saw they replaced Tim with Damian in the Batman Unlimited series, I just gave up. Those movies aren't too good, but they were the only places where Tim appeared.


To be fair who they can use in cartoons and some shows is based on permission by DC-(Lee, Johns & Dan).

Remember there is a hatred for Tim's generation.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You could be right, and to be clear I don't hate Tom King over this I'm only disappointed, but since these stories are planned so far ahead I wish he A) Postponed I Am Bane until Tim got back, B) Wrote it in a way that didn't make the Robins look happier and more likable with Tim gone and Duke in his place.
> 
> That's what really upsets me more than his absence, the fact that they look better off without him. Robins+Tim=bad writing, arguments, and hate. Robins-Tim=fun likable superhero family. That's not right.


A. Bottom line Tim being involved with the overarching Rebirth plot line is a bigger deal then his being involved in the I Am Bane story line. Since he is involved with that instead and we know that things regarding that aren't happening until at least summer asking King to postpone the finale of his three part opening Batman arc so Tim can be involved here is a bit ridiculous. People want Tim involved in the big stories so the character gets pushed and sometimes being involved in those comes at the cost of being involved with something else. That's just the way of it. 

B. I don't think that King was intentionally writing them as being happier without Tim there. In fact there was a panel there just after Bruce mentions Tim's name where they are all clearly looking pensive or upset. I doubt they are happier without Tim.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I never understood that. Tim didn't do anything against Damian, like you said, it was the other way around. Still, his fans hate Tim without reason. Being a Tim fan was very painful in the past years. It's not just the comics, it's the animated universe, too. The Young Justice was Tim's team, and when the creators used Dick in the show.... it was a hard blow. And there are the new movies, all concentrating to Damian, while Tim doesn't even exist in that universe. When I saw they replaced Tim with Damian in the Batman Unlimited series, I just gave up. Those movies aren't too good, but they were the only places where Tim appeared.


I think it's because A) Damian hates (hated?) Tim, B) Damian has had better writing since the reboot and C) Damian has a more intense and over the top character so Tim gets hate for being seen as generic and whitebread im comparison.




> B. I don't think that King was intentionally writing them as being happier without Tim there. In fact there was a panel there just after Bruce mentions Tim's name where they are all clearly looking pensive or upset. I doubt they are happier without Tim.


But they are more likable, they are better written together. WE know it's because of better writing and editorial than the New 52, but not everyone is coming to that conclusion. The Family LOOKS better without him, not good for a struggling character. We sure as hell don't want Tim being dropped from the "Batboys" permanently.

----------


## KrustyKid

> You could be right, and to be clear I don't hate Tom King over this I'm only disappointed, but since these stories are planned so far ahead I wish he A) Postponed I Am Bane until Tim got back, B) Wrote it in a way that didn't make the Robins look happier and more likable with Tim gone and Duke in his place.
> 
> That's what really upsets me more than his absence, the fact that they look better off without him. Robins+Tim=bad writing, arguments, and hate. Robins-Tim=fun likable superhero family. That's not right.
> 
> 
> 
> But he's directly harming Tim by taking his place among the Robins. They're so similar in character that they make the other redundant, Dukes role in the Family makes Tim obsolete. He was even a flat out replacement for Tim this week. Not a coincidence there's a noticeable overlap between Tim Drake detractors and Duke fans, they harm each other.


I don't have a dislike for any fan base. For example I love Tim just as much as Damian. Sure Duke and Tim have their similarities, but they have their notable differences which makes it work. But even still, there is no denying Tim's irrelevance, since Damian has TT now that only adds to it. However there's a chance that could change once he get's back, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. Though given DC's track record with Drake as of late, I wouldn't hold my breath, lol

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't have a dislike for any fan base. For example I love Tim just as much as Damian. Sure Duke and Tim have their similarities, but they have their notable differences which makes it work. But even still, there is no denying Tim's irrelevance, since Damian has TT now that only adds to it. However there's a chance that could change once he get's back, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. Though given DC's track record with Drake as of late, I wouldn't hold my breath, lol


I'm hoping he comes out on the other side of the Rebirth story line with his own solo myself. I'd really like to have a Red Robin solo again.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm hoping he comes out on the other side of the Rebirth story line with his own solo myself. I'd really like to have a Red Robin solo again.


That would be a step in the right direction. He's lacking serve development as a character since the New-52.

By the way, I like your profile pic

----------


## Frontier

I'm still holding out hope for a Young Justice Rebirth with Tim in the lead  :Smile: .

Also, playing off KrustyKid, Shiro for the win  :Cool: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't have a dislike for any fan base. For example I love Tim just as much as Damian. Sure Duke and Tim have their similarities, but they have their notable differences which makes it work. But even still, there is no denying Tim's irrelevance, since Damian has TT now that only adds to it. However there's a chance that could change once he get's back, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. Though given DC's track record with Drake as of late, I wouldn't hold my breath, lol


I know you want to like everyone but in the end, some characters are bad news for others. And nothing is worse for a character, not even being replaced, than redundancy. Damian doesn't make Tim redundant, Duke does. Their personalities are, undeniably, similar. Almost too similar. You can try to support them both but eventually, it will become clear that there's only room for one cerebral, mild mannered, slightly awkward teen vigilante in the Bat-books.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> To be fair who they can use in cartoons and some shows is based on permission by DC-(Lee, Johns & Dan).
> 
> Remember there is a hatred for Tim's generation.


Yeah, Kyle Rayner, Conner Hawke, Cassandra Cain, the YJ4.... the 90s kids are doomed.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I think it's because A) Damian hates (hated?) Tim, B) Damian has had better writing since the reboot and C) Damian has a more intense and over the top character so Tim gets hate for being seen as generic and whitebread im comparison.


Yup, Tim's serious and introverted personality is completely in contrast with Damian's intense personality.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yup, Tim's serious and introverted personality is completely in contrast with Damian's intense personality.


I like Damian fine but stronger=/=better. Especially outside of comics, the animated films would have been SO much better off with a more stable Robin, their obsession with having an "intense" Robin was their failure.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I know you want to like everyone but in the end, some characters are bad news for others. And nothing is worse for a character, not even being replaced, than redundancy. Damian doesn't make Tim redundant, Duke does. Their personalities are, undeniably, similar. Almost too similar. You can try to support them both but eventually, it will become clear that there's only room for one cerebral, mild mannered, slightly awkward teen vigilante in the Bat-books.


Tim could always leave the Bat Fam and do his own thing in the wider DCU, problem fixed. Not that he couldn't drop back in to visit from time to time. Even with what you said above, Duke and Tim's situations are different enough. Why they choose to fight, and how they analyze situations are not entirely the same.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim could always leave the Bat Fam and do his own thing in the wider DCU, problem fixed. Not that he couldn't drop back in to visit from time to time. Even with what you said above, Duke and Tim's situations are different enough. Why they choose to fight, and how they analyze situations are not entirely the same.


Why should he have to leave the Family because of a new character being introduced? That is not fair to him at all And would only make him MORE irrelevant without the support of the Bat-books. What about his relationships within the Family? He shouldn't have to lose all that just to make room for someone else. 

And those differences are...trivial. Dude, why is it so important for you to defend Duke even from very real problems with the character? You say you like Tim more, why not stick up for him instead of make excuses for the problems he faces?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I like Damian fine but stronger=/=better. Especially outside of comics, the animated films would have been SO much better off with a more stable Robin, their obsession with having an "intense" Robin was their failure.


I read somewhere that the director of the new animated movies is a huge Damian fan, so it's not a surprise he put him in the spotlight. Using Damian wasn't his choice, it was DC's claim, but he is happy about it. And there is Bruce Timm. I love his work, he is a genius, but he dislikes Tim. He said that he liked Jason back in the day, so he basically used him in the New Batman Adventures. The company wanted Tim, so he named the kid in the show after him, but we all know that robin was Jason.

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## JasonTodd428

> That would be a step in the right direction. He's lacking serve development as a character since the New-52.





> I'm still holding out hope for a Young Justice Rebirth with Tim in the lead .


I think a solo would definitely help him character development-wise. He's not going to get as much attention in a team setting and frankly if they want to do something to repair the damage the N52 caused he needs a book that concentrates solely on him. I would also like to see him leading a YJ team though.  




> By the way, I like your profile pic





> Also, playing off KrustyKid, Shiro for the win .


Thanks guys. I just binge watched the second season of VLD and thought a Shiro avatar was apt seeing as how that season ended. Looking forward to season three if it happens.

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## Pohzee

Unfortunately, Duke is not going anywhere and Tim is not going anywhere. And I mean two very different things by that.

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## KrustyKid

> Why should he have to leave the Family because of a new character being introduced? That is not fair to him at all And would only make him MORE irrelevant without the support of the Bat-books. What about his relationships within the Family? He shouldn't have to lose all that just to make room for someone else. 
> 
> And those differences are...trivial. Dude, why is it so important for you to defend Duke even from very real problems with the character? You say you like Tim more, why not stick up for him instead of make excuses for the problems he faces?


Moving him to the wider DCU could actually prove to be beneficial in the long run if you think about it. However that would also depend on the given direction for him. I'm not suggesting he couldn't still interact with the Bat Fam, not at all. Only that his main focus would be broader, leading to him venturing on crime fighting away from Gotham. I wouldn't particularity say I'm defending Duke, not so much as the point I'm trying to make. Duke's place in the fam is not like Tim's. Duke is a new b, he's learning. On the flip side Tim is a veteran, and no longer needs the Bat at his side to accomplish any necessary mission. Duke's placement is clear, he's the new rookie in training. Tim isn't a rookie anymore, nor is he Batman's sidekick. Which leads us to where we are now, what is his placement in the family?

What do you believe it is Atlanta96? And secondly what do you think it should be if he sticks around in Gotham?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Moving him to the wider DCU could actually prove to be beneficial in the long run if you think about it. However that would also depend on the given direction for him. I'm not suggesting he couldn't still interact with the Bat Fam, not at all. Only that his main focus would be broader, leading to him venturing on crime fighting away from Gotham. I wouldn't particularity say I'm defending Duke, not so much as the point I'm trying to make. Duke's place in the fam is not like Tim's. Duke is a new b, he's learning. On the flip side Tim is a veteran, and no longer needs the Bat at his side to accomplish any necessary mission. Duke's placement is clear, he's the new rookie in training. Tim isn't a rookie anymore, nor is he Batman's sidekick. Which leads us to where we are now, what is his placement in the family?
> 
> What do you believe it is Atlanta96? And secondly what do you think it should be if he sticks around in Gotham?


I have a post on page 114 of this thread that pretty much answers those questions. TLDR, he should be the humble and relatable everyman of the Family who also happens to be a technical prodigy. He has a very human and average persona that none of the other Robins do, that has potential.

Look, if all you're saying is that Tim should EXPAND beyond the Bat-Family I'm all for that, it's the suggestion that he should move away from it entirely that I have issues with. He should never stop being a staple of the Bat-books. You said "leave" not "expand" so, I took it as "Tim doesn't belong in Gotham anymore".

And as long as Duke is hanging out with the other Robins in Tim's absence I don't want to hear about how he's totally not a replacement or poses no threat to Tim. They ACT similar, that's more important than the stage of their crimefighting careers they've reached. As soon as there's a story with ALL the Robins again, that doesn't suck, then MAYBE we can talk about the 2 coexisting. Until then, he is the enemy  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> I have a post on page 114 of this thread that pretty much answers those questions. TLDR, he should be the humble and relatable everyman of the Family who also happens to be a technical prodigy. He has a very human and average persona that none of the other Robins do, that has potential.
> 
> Look, if all you're saying is that Tim should EXPAND beyond the Bat-Family I'm all for that, it's the suggestion that he should move away from it entirely that I have issues with. He should never stop being a staple of the Bat-books. You said "leave" not "expand" so, I took it as "Tim doesn't belong in Gotham anymore".
> 
> And as long as Duke is hanging out with the other Robins in Tim's absence I don't want to hear about how he's totally not a replacement or poses no threat to Tim. They ACT similar, that's more important than the stage of their crimefighting careers they've reached. As soon as there's a story with ALL the Robins again, that doesn't suck, then MAYBE we can talk about the 2 coexisting. Until then, he is the enemy


Lol, that smiley face at the end. Sorry, I should have clarified that before. I wouldn't want Tim to leave the B-Family completely, after all that's where the roots of the character stem. His main mission would just be focused elsewhere, that's all.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I have a post on page 114 of this thread that pretty much answers those questions. TLDR, he should be the humble and relatable everyman of the Family who also happens to be a technical prodigy. He has a very human and average persona that none of the other Robins do, that has potential.


Those were the things that drew me to the character originally unfortunately he doesn't feel very much like a humble and relatable everyman in the the N52. Most of the time he came off as a condescending asshat IMO. The problem is they took him off the table just as they were starting to correct things and I'm still not sure it was the smartest of moves on their part since a lot of fans were complaining about his characterization in the N52. Maybe whatever they have in store for him will make me change my mind on that but right now that's how I feel. 




> Look, if all you're saying is that Tim should EXPAND beyond the Bat-Family I'm all for that, it's the suggestion that he should move away from it entirely that I have issues with. He should never stop being a staple of the Bat-books. You said "leave" not "expand" so, I took it as "Tim doesn't belong in Gotham anymore".


I really believe Tim needs to expand beyond the Bat Family if they are really serious about fixing what the reboot destroyed with his character. Give him is own book and maybe a YJ team where they can tell stories that take place outside of Gotham. Bring him back to 'Tec were he can interact with Bruce and the others on that team and let him make appearances in the other Bat titles and in crossovers. Let him have the best of both worlds.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Those were the things that drew me to the character originally unfortunately he doesn't feel very much like a humble and relatable everyman in the the N52. Most of the time he came off as a condescending asshat IMO. The problem is they took him off the table just as they were starting to correct things and I'm still not sure it was the smartest of moves on their part since a lot of fans were complaining about his characterization in the N52. Maybe whatever they have in store for him will make me change my mind on that but right now that's how I feel. 
> 
> 
> 
> I really believe Tim needs to expand beyond the Bat Family if they are really serious about fixing what the reboot destroyed with his character. Give him is own book and maybe a YJ team where they can tell stories that take place outside of Gotham. Bring him back to 'Tec were he can interact with Bruce and the others on that team and let him make appearances in the other Bat titles and in crossovers. Let him have the best of both worlds.


But Rebirth Tim is a completely different character from New 52 Tim who brings back most of the original Tim's best traits. He's the guy we're talking about, New 52 Tim is dead. The character we saw in 'Tec WAS all those things I described, he is the official Tim Drake as of now. Just restore his old origin and his time as Robin and he's 100% fixed.

I agree with the 2nd paragraph though, Tim has not one but many different places in the DCU that he belongs in. Might as well put him in all of them.




> Lol, that smiley face at the end. Sorry, I should have clarified that before. I wouldn't want Tim to leave the B-Family completely, after all that's where the roots of the character stem. His main mission would just be focused elsewhere, that's all.


Agreed, agreed. His main mission should be focused on the Young Justice generation and Rebirth mystery. In fact part of his role in the Rebirth mystery should be reestablishing himself among the Bat-Family, fixing his relationships with Bruce, Dick, Steph etc. We've already seen a little of that.

----------


## Atlanta96

BTW I think I'm going to hold off on the rest of I Am Bane for now. Too depressing, especially with the "Bat-Family is better off without Tim" crap going around. It might read better a few months from now when things are moving forward for Tim.

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## JasonTodd428

> But Rebirth Tim is a completely different character from New 52 Tim who brings back most of the original Tim's best traits. He's the guy we're talking about, New 52 Tim is dead. The character we saw in 'Tec WAS all those things I described, he is the official Tim Drake as of now. Just restore his old origin and his time as Robin and he's 100% fixed.


I felt like they were only just getting started with correcting some of the flaws his character ended up with during the reboot and that they hadn't even really cemented them when they took him off the table. Obviously you feel differently about it. Either way I'm still not 100% sure that taking him off the table before fans got used to the idea of Rebirth Tim was a good idea. Time will tell.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I felt like they were only just getting started with correcting some of the flaws his character ended up with during the reboot and that they hadn't even really cemented them when they took him off the table. Obviously you feel differently about it. Either way I'm still not 100% sure that taking him off the table before fans got used to the idea of Rebirth Tim was a good idea. Time will tell.


I'm with you, it was too early. Yeah, time will tell, but for now, it's frustrating.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I felt like they were only just getting started with correcting some of the flaws his character ended up with during the reboot and that they hadn't even really cemented them when they took him off the table. Obviously you feel differently about it. Either way I'm still not 100% sure that taking him off the table before fans got used to the idea of Rebirth Tim was a good idea. Time will tell.


I pretty much agree with everything here.

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## WhipWhirlwind

I don't mind Duke, even if I do find him a bit boring. Batman 16 was the first time I've actually felt like he added to a scene. Mainly, becuase Tim can't be a total everyman anymore, because he's been Robin for a while and is too familiar with the crimefighting community.  

So when everyone is joking about death, he could pull off being bemused at how crazy the guys are, but he couldn't pull that incredulous "What I want to stay alive!" bit. He's moved past being the guy who thinks bat word is gospel, so I'm okay with someone else taking on that role.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't mind Duke, even if I do find him a bit boring. Batman 16 was the first time I've actually felt like he added to a scene. Mainly, becuase Tim can't be a total everyman anymore, because he's been Robin for a while and is too familiar with the crimefighting community.  
> 
> So when everyone is joking about death, he could pull off being bemused at how crazy the guys are, but he couldn't pull that incredulous "What I want to stay alive!" bit. He's moved past being the guy who thinks bat word is gospel, so I'm okay with someone else taking on that role.


Yea, I enjoyed Duke's part in that scene. He played well off of the others.

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## Atlanta96

> I don't mind Duke, even if I do find him a bit boring. Batman 16 was the first time I've actually felt like he added to a scene. Mainly, becuase Tim can't be a total everyman anymore, because he's been Robin for a while and is too familiar with the crimefighting community.  
> 
> So when everyone is joking about death, he could pull off being bemused at how crazy the guys are, but he couldn't pull that incredulous "What I want to stay alive!" bit. He's moved past being the guy who thinks bat word is gospel, so I'm okay with someone else taking on that role.


Tim is still the everyman in the sense that he's the only Robin without an exaggerated personality. Dick is an ultra charismatic god, Jason and Damian are crazy and aggressive, but Tim still acts like a relatable, down to Earth human for the most part. Yes his technical skills are a bit exaggerated nowadays but that's more to do with his abilities than his personality. Tim could still bring an element of humanity to the team if it wasn't for Duke being shoved into that role, Tim's experience does not detract from his humanity.




> Yea, I enjoyed Duke's part in that scene. He played well off of the others.


Do you really think that? To me he felt kind of superfluous, except that bit at the end where he snaps at Dick and comes off like a bit of a jerk. I'm surprised anyone likes him, honestly. I still don't see what makes him stand out aside from lacking the conventional Bat-Boy appearance.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> Tim is still the everyman in the sense that he's the only Robin without an exaggerated personality. Dick is an ultra charismatic god, Jason and Damian are crazy and aggressive, but Tim still acts like a relatable, down to Earth human for the most part. Yes his technical skills are a bit exaggerated nowadays but that's more to do with his abilities than his personality. Tim could still bring an element of humanity to the team if it wasn't for Duke being shoved into that role, Tim's experience does not detract from his humanity.


Yeah, just saying that Tim is too confident and indepedent (now) to play the role that Duke did in batman 16.

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## Atlanta96

> I felt like they were only just getting started with correcting some of the flaws his character ended up with during the reboot and that they hadn't even really cemented them when they took him off the table. Obviously you feel differently about it. Either way I'm still not 100% sure that taking him off the table before fans got used to the idea of Rebirth Tim was a good idea. Time will tell.


You're right, it's just a start. But you've got to admit they brought back a lot of Tim's best attributes in just 6 issues. He's not arrogant anymore, he's a likable slightly awkward whiz kid again. He has endearing relationships with the rest of the Bat-Family again. He provides a real character role to the Family now instead of just being the tech guy, he's an inspirational hero.

Yeah, it was just 3 months of writing. And I wish they didn't send him to limbo so quickly. But DC is finally starting to remember how to properly portray Tim, all he needs is more exposure




> Yeah, just saying that Tim is too confident and indepedent (now) to play the role that Duke did in batman 16.


He didn't play much of a role, he spoke in, like, 6 panels. Mostly in questions like "am I going to be dead?" that make him seem vapid. And then he gets standoffish for no reason. I struggle to see his appeal.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> He didn't play much of a role, he spoke in, like, 6 panels. Mostly in questions like "am I going to be dead?" that make him seem vapid. And then he gets standoffish for no reason. I struggle to see his appeal.


For me, the appeal is contrast. The humor in Duke having the very reasonable opinion of "Yeah I don't want to die, lets listen to Batman" and yet him being the odd man out, with the Robins literally laughing about death and basically rolling their eyes at Batman's super serious edict. 

Tim can't be that guy anymore, because he's past that. He'd likely give Duke a bemused chuckle and give him a reassuring "Its okay, I remember when I was new to this".

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## shadowsgirl

There are 2 awesome videos about Rebirth Tim. I really hope he will come back soon.

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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl

Audiobook. Tim's first Robin mini-series with official voice actors.

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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## Atlanta96

> Audiobook. Tim's first Robin mini-series with official voice actors.


I got to read that series for the first time last year, they did such a good job building Tim up to being a solo hero. Nowadays they just shove new characters down your throats but with 90s Robin they took it 1 step at a time, and made all of them count. Too bad more younger readers haven't had the chance to read that old stuff, Tim would have a LOT more support if they did.

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## shadowsgirl

Yes, Dixon did a pretty good job with Tim, he made him relatable and likeable. Tim has never had any support outside the comic world, so those who haven't read any comics with him, well, they don't know anything about him. Damian has a lot of fans, because he appeared in 5 animated movies and there his personality similar to his comic counterpart. The real Tim never appeared any animation until Young Justice, but he was in a minor supporting role there, so he didn't do anything important. He didn't even have a concrete personality, he was kinda generic. No wonder so many people dislike Tim nowadays, because like you said, they haven't had a chance to read the old stuff with him. They met him in the New52 and they weren't impressed by what they saw. New52 Tim was an unlikable, uppish jerk for 5 years, so he was in a really bad place for half a decade.

----------


## millernumber1

> 


That's amazing. Well done!

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## Atlanta96

> Yes, Dixon did a pretty good job with Tim, he made him relatable and likeable. Tim has never had any support outside the comic world, so those who haven't read any comics with him, well, they don't know anything about him. Damian has a lot of fans, because he appeared in 5 animated movies and there his personality similar to his comic counterpart. The real Tim never appeared any animation until Young Justice, but he was in a minor supporting role there, so he didn't do anything important. He didn't even have a concrete personality, he was kinda generic. No wonder so many people dislike Tim nowadays, because like you said, they haven't had a chance to read the old stuff with him. They met him in the New52 and they weren't impressed by what they saw. New52 Tim was an unlikable, uppish jerk for 5 years, so he was in a really bad place for half a decade.


Good news is, Tim was DC's main teenage hero for 2 decades and his stories have impacted a whole generation of readers, many of them eventually will be/are in creative positions. It doesn't look that way but theres a lot of love for the character being held back by stupid executive decisions. Eventually Tim will find his footing and take off again, because Tim is a legend. And legends never die  :Smile:

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## WhipWhirlwind

I actually really liked Tim in Young Justice. Supporting characters often get boiled down into tropes, and the quiet smart guy works for that period in his life.

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## shadowsgirl

> That's amazing. Well done!


Yes, the girl who made this is a huge Tim/Steph shipper, athough she likes the Tim/Cass pairing, too.

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## Atlanta96

> I actually really liked Tim in Young Justice. Supporting characters often get boiled down into tropes, and the quiet smart guy works for that period in his life.


But he didn't get nearly enough screen time, even Impulse and Blue Beetle had bigger roles that season than him. Dick Grayson Robin got to be one of the main characters for an entire season and Tim was just...there. What we saw was fine but it wasn't enough, and hopefully next season will do more to make him a worthy follow up to Dick's Robin.

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## shadowsgirl

> Good news is, Tim was DC's main teenage hero for 2 decades and his stories have impacted a whole generation of readers, many of them eventually will be/are in creative positions. It doesn't look that way but theres a lot of love for the character being held back by stupid executive decisions. Eventually Tim will find his footing and take off again, because Tim is a legend. And legends never die


I wish I could be so optimistic like you. I hope you're right and he will become popular again.  :Smile:

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## Atlanta96

It's funny, all the problems facing Tim would vanish instantly if he were to get the live action treatment.
IMG_8512.jpg

Good thing the suggestion of him being the DCEU Robin got such a positive reaction, it's clear that the character still has support even after all the sh*t he's been through. It may never happen, but at least the possibility is there.

Obvious bias aside, I believe Tim would be the perfect Robin in the films if done right. His character lends itself better to live action than Damian or even Dick. A relatable, optimistic teen prodigy is just what the next Batman film needs, and hopefully some of the filmmakers agree with that.

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## shadowsgirl

> I actually really liked Tim in Young Justice. Supporting characters often get boiled down into tropes, and the quiet smart guy works for that period in his life.


He appeared like 3, or max 4 episodes where he had actual lines. Other than Happy New Year and True Colors, he was in the background. He had some lines in the Intervention episode too, but that's it.

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## Aahz



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## Atlanta96

> He appeared like 3, or max 4 episodes where he had actual lines. Other than Happy New Year and True Colors, he was in the background. He had some lines in the Intervention episode too, but that's it.


Didn't stop him from getting fan art though, animation fans will draw anything  :Smile: 
IMG_8513.jpg
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IMG_8515.jpg

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## Frontier

I remember getting Cameron Bowen's autograph at Long Beach Comic-Con. He actually seemed kind of surprised I knew who he was  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## Aahz

> He appeared like 3, or max 4 episodes where he had actual lines. Other than Happy New Year and True Colors, he was in the background. He had some lines in the Intervention episode too, but that's it.


The second season had imo in general the problem that they added lots of characters during the time jump that were never properly introduced to the audience, appart from Tim, Batgirl, Wondergirl, Lagoon Boy, Bumble Bee and Mal Duncan had the same problem.
Not to mention Jason Todd and Ted Kord, who only appeared as Holograms.

Batman the Brave and the Bold had for example also Jamie as Blue Beetle, but they had Ted still appearing in Flash backs.

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## Atlanta96

> The second season had imo in general the problem that they added lots of characters during the time jump that were never properly introduced to the audience, appart from Tim, Batgirl, Wondergirl, Lagoon Boy, Bumble Bee and Mal Duncan had the same problem.
> Not to mention Jason Todd and Ted Kord, who only appeared as Holograms.
> 
> Batman the Brave and the Bold had for example also Jamie as Blue Beetle, but they had Ted still appearing in Flash backs.


Yeah, they should've included at least 1 flashback scene for Jason and Ted if they were going to have their successors on the show, not enough time I guess. If it were up to me the only newcomers for season 2 would've been Tim, Cass, Bart and Jaime. Nothing against the others but overcrowding is overcrowding.

BTW its great that we can keep this thread going even though Tim isn't appearing in anything, fan discussion is pretty much all Tim has at the moment. Aside from being mentioned by name constantly in DC comics I guess.

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## Frontier

If it were up to me, I would've just focused more on the new Team and their development, like the first season did for the original Team, rather then balancing multiple sub-plots involving the original group. 

But that's just me...

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## Aahz

Actually I think they allready started to have this problem in season 1, I have for example still no idea what actually the deal with Rocket and Icon.

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## KrustyKid

The YJ boys

52bea5bb59e9384d549ac359e5acf181.jpg

ed3398a775cb3f8fa8bb99ae1d41229a.jpg

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## Atlanta96

There's a LOT of good 90s Young Justice fan art. I'm surprised, it was so long ago.
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## Atlanta96

Also...
IMG_8531.jpg

I love Peter David  :Smile:

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## CPSparkles

Tim and Kon with The SuperSons

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## Atlanta96

> Tim and Kon with The SuperSons


This needs to happen someday. Too bad Tim and Damian have no chance in hell of ever being close, Kon might make a good older half-brother to Jon though.

BTW when Tim comes back they need to finally put his rivalry with Damian to rest. They don't have to be best bros but that dynamic is a thorn in the side of the Bat-books. Just have them ironically taunt each other from now on.

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## CPSparkles

I think that their rivalry needs to be toned down but still exist. It works for them and for the story.
I don't see why this can't happen. I would love to see Tim and Kon with Jon and Damian.

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## Atlanta96

> I think that their rivalry needs to be toned down but still exist. It works for them and for the story.
> I don't see why this can't happen. I would love to see Tim and Kon with Jon and Damian.


Yeah, but they need to tone it down big time. Damian fans and Tim Drake fans tend to hate the other character, and the rivalry is the root of the problem. I dont think Dick Grayson fans started hating on Tim until they stopped being friends either. A lot of tribalism in this fandom.

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## Frontier

> Tim and Kon with The SuperSons


I can't tell if they're saving them or were the ones who beat them up  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## KrustyKid

> Also...
> Attachment 44713
> 
> I love Peter David


I remember that scene, lol

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## KrustyKid

640e8f911cb2aecc146cd862044c555f.jpg

Always enjoyed the Tam and Tim interactions

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## Atlanta96

> I remember that scene, lol


It hasn't similar moments with Superboy and Impulse too, though I couldn't find the panels. What a great series, DC really needs to give us a new Young Justice comic with the same characters and tone. I wonder who could write it, any ideas?

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## godisawesome

Id say Fabian Nocoeza or Bryan Q. Miller, just because both of them seem to know how to handle Tim and other characters. Though, co sider G new blood might be sought after, perhaps Tynion could write a Wesimann-esque YJ comic? I actually prefer the goofier ones by PAD better, but a jokey tine may fit Titans better.

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## Atlanta96

> Id say Fabian Nocoeza or Bryan Q. Miller, just because both of them seem to know how to handle Tim and other characters. Though, co sider G new blood might be sought after, perhaps Tynion could write a Wesimann-esque YJ comic? I actually prefer the goofier ones by PAD better, but a jokey tine may fit Titans better.


Nicieza and Miller are great but, they're kind of has-beens now. I don't know if they have the selling power they used to, and I wouldn't want this book to fail after 12 issues due to low sales. Tynion might be good, I think he's better at writing Tim as part of an ensemble as opposed to a solo book. Being a mega-fan of the character.

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## millernumber1

> Id say Fabian Nocoeza or Bryan Q. Miller, just because both of them seem to know how to handle Tim and other characters. Though, co sider G new blood might be sought after, perhaps Tynion could write a Wesimann-esque YJ comic? I actually prefer the goofier ones by PAD better, but a jokey tine may fit Titans better.





> Nicieza and Miller are great but, they're kind of has-beens now. I don't know if they have the selling power they used to, and I wouldn't want this book to fail after 12 issues due to low sales. Tynion might be good, I think he's better at writing Tim as part of an ensemble as opposed to a solo book. Being a mega-fan of the character.


Much as BQM is my fave for writing Steph or Damian, I wasn't super impressed with his Tim in the one issue Tim showed up. Not that I don't think he could do a good job, but he's also been working in TV and not comics for so long, it's clear that any connections he used to have to DC are pretty much gone (I know that his editors definitely are).

Nicieza worries me - because every time he writes Tim, he plays too much in to the fantasy - Tim tricks Shiva, Tim gets hit on by all the girls (most of them older than him). There were some really good things about both his Robin run and his Red Robin run, but I don't look for his return with any kind of eagerness.

I'd of course want Dixon to write Tim the most, but that's never going to happen. Next best thing to my mind would be Tynion, though I think I agree that his strength isn't solo books in general.

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## Frontier

> Much as BQM is my fave for writing Steph or Damian, I wasn't super impressed with his Tim in the one issue Tim showed up. Not that I don't think he could do a good job, but he's also been working in TV and not comics for so long, it's clear that any connections he used to have to DC are pretty much gone (I know that his editors definitely are).


Well, for what it's worth, he did do the screenplay for last year's J_ustice League vs. Teen Titans_ movie and I believe he did a script for either a Supergirl or Flash episode last year as well. 

So while he hasn't done anything comics-wise, he does dabble back into the DCU every now and again...

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## millernumber1

> Well, for what it's worth, he did do the screenplay for last year's J_ustice League vs. Teen Titans_ movie and I believe he did a script for either a Supergirl or Flash episode last year as well. 
> 
> So while he hasn't done anything comics-wise, he does dabble back into the DCU every now and again...


Yes, I watched the JLvTT movie, and enjoyed it (except for the grievous lack of Steph to match wits with Damian!  :Wink:  ). I know he's sorta on the fringes of the comics professional community, but he's been saying for ages that he's working on something, but nothing every gets announced or produced, so it sounds to me like the connections he had that got him into comics are gone. As well as possibly the motivation, since he's got kid(s?), and unless you're a Morrison or Rucka or someone like that, you can't really make that much money from writing comics.

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## Atlanta96

*sigh* Good times.
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IMG_8547.jpg

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## Atlanta96

IMG_8548.jpg
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## KrustyKid

One with the fam

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## Caivu

Tim by Steve Epting, from _Batwoman: Rebirth_ #1:

Screenshot_20170206-153531.jpg

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## KrustyKid

1f0305e61b9ecd5e7d4a7248d0c91f55.jpg

One with all the boys

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## Atlanta96

> Tim by Steve Epting, from _Batwoman: Rebirth_ #1:
> 
> Screenshot_20170206-153531.jpg


Probably just a one panel appearance, nice to see him acknowledged in other books aside from just a name-drop though.

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## millernumber1

> Probably just a one panel appearance, nice to see him acknowledged in other books aside from just a name-drop though.


I'm betting it's from the same spread that Steph is in - the flashback of the beginning of the team.

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## KrustyKid

1ab640d3797ed82571ed64cd2625786e.jpg

sample-bb450ee104775d3689c39c087f4e809f.jpg

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## KrustyKid

sample-9a352acced8c1207314a7a8122777878.jpg

This one is fire

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## millernumber1

I just read Robin III: Cry of the Huntress again last night, and I noticed that Tim was spouting off some pretty advanced (for the time) hacker jargon, and knew a ton of random facts in that miniseries. Add to that the sheer amount of computerization of Tim's gear in the blueprints for his Robin suit, and I'm personally not convinced that n52 Tim is, at least outside of the Teen Titans (which I personally ignore anyway  :Wink:  ), that much different from post-Crisis Tim. Tim's always enjoyed being the smartest in the room, or knowing more than other people. As long as he also keeps the sweeter aspects of his personality, I think it's within bounds of previous characterization.

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## Frontier

> I just read Robin III: Cry of the Huntress again last night, and I noticed that Tim was spouting off some pretty advanced (for the time) hacker jargon, and knew a ton of random facts in that miniseries. Add to that the sheer amount of computerization of Tim's gear in the blueprints for his Robin suit, and I'm personally not convinced that n52 Tim is, at least outside of the Teen Titans (which I personally ignore anyway  ), that much different from post-Crisis Tim. Tim's always enjoyed being the smartest in the room, or knowing more than other people. As long as he also keeps the sweeter aspects of his personality, I think it's within bounds of previous characterization.


Even if being the "smart kid" and having some affinity for hacking was apparent early on in Tim's character, I still think they've over-emphasized that part of his character over time and not handled it as well as they could have in working it into his character after the reboot.

But that's just me...

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## KrustyKid

> Even if being the "smart kid" and having some affinity for hacking was apparent early on in Tim's character, I still think they've over-emphasized that part of his character over time and not handled it as well as they could have in working it into his character after the reboot.
> 
> But that's just me...


I agree with you completely

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## Atlanta96

> Even if being the "smart kid" and having some affinity for hacking was apparent early on in Tim's character, I still think they've over-emphasized that part of his character over time and not handled it as well as they could have in working it into his character after the reboot.
> 
> But that's just me...


A little, I could have done without the high speed Bat-trains running through Gotham personally. But I still really don't get the people who think his intelligence boost has turned him into a completely new character. They say he can't be the audience surrogate of the Bat-Family anymore because he's a prodigy, even though he's always been a prodigy. What mattered most was his behavior, and how relatable his persona and his problems were. As of Rebirth, the old Tim is alive and well. He's just a bit smarter.

I agree that the master tactician Tim from Red Robin was a better evolution of the character than the tech wizard he is now. But his characterization is on point besides that so let's just hope for good exposure and good writing instead of obsessing over his IQ.

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## Jadeb

> I agree with you completely


Same here. And it's not just that he's absurdly smart, it's that he's offputtingly smug.

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## Atlanta96

> Same here. And it's not just that he's absurdly smart, it's that he's offputtingly smug.


At least the smugness is gone, he's a pretty sweet kid now. Even his intelligence isn't THAT bad if you consider he's been a vigilante for a while, and his skills have evolved since he first started out. A bit too quickly yes, but eventually you'd expect Tim to start displaying some serious technical skills, regardless of version.

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## KrustyKid

> At least the smugness is gone, he's a pretty sweet kid now. Even his intelligence isn't THAT bad if you consider he's been a vigilante for a while, and his skills have evolved since he first started out. A bit too quickly yes, but eventually you'd expect Tim to start displaying some serious technical skills, regardless of version.


Yea, I could care less about his IQ. His personality was his main issue in the New-52. Thankfully we seem to be getting something closer to how he should be.

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## Atlanta96

> Yea, I could care less about his IQ. His personality was his main issue in the New-52. Thankfully we seem to be getting something closer to how he should be.


Damn straight! Although, I do miss his more calculated, strategic displays of intelligence as opposed to just creating absurdly high tech buildings and crap. Not saying there can only be one or the other, but we still haven't seen much of strategist Tim Post-Rebirth. I mean, there was his hacking the drones in 'Tec which sort of counts, but it still involved computer wizardry so, yeah.

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## KrustyKid

> Damn straight! Although, I do miss his more calculated, strategic displays of intelligence as opposed to just creating absurdly high tech buildings and crap. Not saying there can only be one or the other, but we still haven't seen much of strategist Tim Post-Rebirth. I mean, there was his hacking the drones in 'Tec which sort of counts, but it still involved computer wizardry so, yeah.


Hopefully we'll get back to that in time.

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## millernumber1

> Hopefully we'll get back to that in time.


Yeah, I'd like to see Tim being a planner.  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

Fabian Nicieza used to say that Tim was a hard character to write for because he was so smart, and I think he did mean that in the strategic sense as opposed to the technological. Having a character use tech and gadgets as a weapon really isn't difficult, since it's an accepted convention of speculative fiction. Having the character something clever and cunning, and in such a way that his opponents don't come off as stupid? That's hard. It means you have to either plant understandable flaws in anatagonists to be exploited later (King Snake's arrogance about his hearing, Armstrong's reckless immaturity) or spend so much time developing the main character's skills and planning that they can prepare for almost any contingency without it being shocking (Tim's entire hit list in Red Robin).

You have to make the protagonist an active character, which means devoting time to his personality, work ethic, and creativity, all while letting him initiate subplots that will weld onto the main plot later. That's what the best Tim writers understood about him; every action he takes has some build up behind it, even his martial skills.

And I think that was a major part of the New 52 Teen Titans's mistake with the character; it was so focused on being a teen hero genre story it never allowed characters to breathe (with the notable exception of Bunker), and that reduced Tim to a bland Robin archetype instead of being unique. The most planning he did was gathering the team, and theoretically the maneuvers they apparently learned off panel. Otherwise... I don't think Tim ever showed initiative or strategic thinking ever again in those series. Stuff happened, took him by surprise, and he reacted... Usually rather stupidly. 

And since he was a prodigy at everything, even his talents seemed less real or impressive; stunning a powered clone with a fighting style we've never seen him develope using wings we never saw him build really undercuts the scale of that win. In comparison, using a whistle on a stick to distract the Deadliest Man In The World (who's blind) so you can drop kick him out a window? That's a much smaller scaled victory, but the preparation for the moment and the execution of it makes it awesome and impressive.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Fabian Nicieza used to say that Tim was a hard character to write for because he was so smart, and I think he did mean that in the strategic sense as opposed to the technological. Having a character use tech and gadgets as a weapon really isn't difficult, since it's an accepted convention of speculative fiction. Having the character something clever and cunning, and in such a way that his opponents don't come off as stupid? That's hard. It means you have to either plant understandable flaws in anatagonists to be exploited later (King Snake's arrogance about his hearing, Armstrong's reckless immaturity) or spend so much time developing the main character's skills and planning that they can prepare for almost any contingency without it being shocking (Tim's entire hit list in Red Robin).
> 
> You have to make the protagonist an active character, which means devoting time to his personality, work ethic, and creativity, all while letting him initiate subplots that will weld onto the main plot later. That's what the best Tim writers understood about him; every action he takes has some build up behind it, even his martial skills.
> 
> And I think that was a major part of the New 52 Teen Titans's mistake with the character; it was so focused on being a teen hero genre story it never allowed characters to breathe (with the notable exception of Bunker), and that reduced Tim to a bland Robin archetype instead of being unique. The most planning he did was gathering the team, and theoretically the maneuvers they apparently learned off panel. Otherwise... I don't think Tim ever showed initiative or strategic thinking ever again in those series. Stuff happened, took him by surprise, and he reacted... Usually rather stupidly. 
> 
> And since he was a prodigy at everything, even his talents seemed less real or impressive; stunning a powered clone with a fighting style we've never seen him develope using wings we never saw him build really undercuts the scale of that win. In comparison, using a whistle on a stick to distract the Deadliest Man In The World (who's blind) so you can drop kick him out a window? That's a much smaller scaled victory, but the preparation for the moment and the execution of it makes it awesome and impressive.


Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself

----------


## Atlanta96

Was reading some more No Mans Land issues, with Tim and Dick as partners. Am I the only one really bothered by the way Dick fired Tim, at Tim's lowest point ever, from the Robin identity to replace him with Damian, and kind of destroyed their relationship? Honestly, I thought it was one of the most heartbreaking moments of Tim's entire history. It's the reason I've never been able to really enjoy the Dick/Damian relationship at any point, it's an ugly and cruel background to what's meant to be a heartwarming premise.

I think they should make an effort to bring Dick and Tim back to where they were before Damian showed up. Until then I don't think I'll ever be a fan of Dick and Damian as partners.

----------


## Midnighter

> Was reading some more No Mans Land issues, with Tim and Dick as partners. Am I the only one really bothered by the way Dick fired Tim, at Tim's lowest point ever, from the Robin identity to replace him with Damian, and kind of destroyed their relationship? Honestly, I thought it was one of the most heartbreaking moments of Tim's entire history. It's the reason I've never been able to really enjoy the Dick/Damian relationship at any point, it's an ugly and cruel background to what's meant to be a heartwarming premise.
> 
> I think they should make an effort to bring Dick and Tim back to where they were before Damian showed up. Until then I don't think I'll ever be a fan of Dick and Damian as partners.



 This is true but remember Dick didn't "fire" Tim. He wanted Damian to be Robin ,not because he thought he was better than Tim, but because he thought Damian was a loose cannon that needed to be watched closely.

He believed Tim had grown beyond being a "Sidekick" and viewed Tim as an equal at that point. He wanted Tim to take over the Nightwing role, but Tim saw Damian in the Robin suit before Dick could explain all of this to Tim.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This is true but remember Dick didn't "fire" Tim. He wanted Damian to be Robin ,not because he thought he was better than Tim, but because he thought Damian was a loose cannon that needed to be watched closely.
> 
> He believed Tim had grown beyond being a "Sidekick" and viewed Tim as an equal at that point. He wanted Tim to take over the Nightwing role, but Tim saw Damian in the Robin suit before Dick could explain all of this to Tim.


It's not so much the reasoning behind it, but how it was handled. That move ended up pretty much destroying Tim's role in the Bat-Family. He lost his relationships with Dick, Steph, and Bruce because of how far it pushed him out of the Family. All of them, especially Dick, pretty much just happily replaced Tim with Damian. And Tim had, at the time, lost his girlfriend, his biological AND adoptive fathers, and 2 of his best friends. It all came off as so unfair to Tim that I assumed Grant Morrison hated the character.

And MAYBE all of that was part of a larger plan for the character that was ruined by the reboot. MAYBE it would have ended with Tim on better terms with the Family than he was in Red Robin. But that didn't happen, and the reboot only made things worse. So I still have a chip on my shoulder regarding Dick's actions.

----------


## KrustyKid

1ab640d3797ed82571ed64cd2625786e.jpg

Supes and Bat Fam's

----------


## millernumber1

> It's not so much the reasoning behind it, but how it was handled. That move ended up pretty much destroying Tim's role in the Bat-Family. He lost his relationships with Dick, Steph, and Bruce because of how far it pushed him out of the Family. All of them, especially Dick, pretty much just happily replaced Tim with Damian. And Tim had, at the time, lost his girlfriend, his biological AND adoptive fathers, and 2 of his best friends. It all came off as so unfair to Tim that I assumed Grant Morrison hated the character.
> 
> And MAYBE all of that was part of a larger plan for the character that was ruined by the reboot. MAYBE it would have ended with Tim on better terms with the Family than he was in Red Robin. But that didn't happen, and the reboot only made things worse. So I still have a chip on my shoulder regarding Dick's actions.


It's funny. I'm a huge Tim/Steph shipper, and I love the first part of the Red Robin series - I thought it felt like a similar promotion as Steph becoming Batgirl. And even the FabNic stuff, much as I didn't like it, had some nice moments, like his interactions with Cass, and his hug with Bruce.  To me, Robin felt like something Tim needed to leave behind to become a better hero, so I don't hate Dick for it, even though it was living up to his name.  :Wink:

----------


## phantom1592

> To me, Robin felt like something Tim needed to leave behind to become a better hero, so I don't hate Dick for it, even though it was living up to his name.


See... for me it's the opposite. I look at what Tim did AS robin, and I really can't picture him BEING a better hero. He did so much, and became such a great character. He was a team player, a solo character, a leader, a detective, and yet could still follow orders when needed. He was dark when needed to be and brought the light when it wasn't. 

Tim's Robin was a darn near PERFECT hero. He really didn't need to grow any more until after they actively broke him down a few pegs. In the grand scheme I don't think he actually came ahead at all with his identity changes... at best he's where he was at already and at worst he was demoted to show 'flaws'...

----------


## oasis1313

The fact is, Tim Drake needs to grow beyond Red Robin.  It feels like an "in-between" identity.  I still like my idea of him returning to the DCU as the new Ozymandias.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The fact is, Tim Drake needs to grow beyond Red Robin.  It feels like an "in-between" identity.  I still like my idea of him returning to the DCU as the new Ozymandias.


Nope, Nite Owl. Someone suggested it a while back and I was instantly hooked on the idea. Tim Drake: Nite Owl III

I mean, him and Dan Dreiburg are so similar. The slightly geeky, charmingly introverted tech guy. The role was freaking made for Tim! And he'd finally have an identity that truly sets him apart from being Robin while still allowing him to be himself.

And, I thought you hated Tim  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> It's funny. I'm a huge Tim/Steph shipper, and I love the first part of the Red Robin series - I thought it felt like a similar promotion as Steph becoming Batgirl. And even the FabNic stuff, much as I didn't like it, had some nice moments, like his interactions with Cass, and his hug with Bruce.  To me, Robin felt like something Tim needed to leave behind to become a better hero, so I don't hate Dick for it, even though it was living up to his name.


Look, I like Red Robin for what it was. But I still hate how they destroyed his role in the Bat-Family when he stopped being Robin. It felt so unnecessary. And yes they may have intended to gradually restore his old relationships with the Family but the reboot happened so we'll never know. Point is the handling of Tim's transition from Robin to Red Robin, and giving most of his allies to Damian, did more harm than good overall.

I mean, imagine where Tim would be now if they had just made him the new Nightwing or something and kept him in Gotham. If he was still Dick's closest ally, Stephanie's boyfriend, Bruce's protege, and a Teen Titan. I'd take that over the Red Robin stuff in a heartbeat.

----------


## millernumber1

> Look, I like Red Robin for what it was. But I still hate how they destroyed his role in the Bat-Family when he stopped being Robin. It felt so unnecessary. And yes they may have intended to gradually restore his old relationships with the Family but the reboot happened so we'll never know. Point is the handling of Tim's transition from Robin to Red Robin, and giving most of his allies to Damian, did more harm than good overall.
> 
> I mean, imagine where Tim would be now if they had just made him the new Nightwing or something and kept him in Gotham. If he was still Dick's closest ally, Stephanie's boyfriend, Bruce's protege, and a Teen Titan. I'd take that over the Red Robin stuff in a heartbeat.


I blame most of that on the handling of Tim's series during RIP more than Red Robin. Dixon clearly wanted to get Tim and Steph back together, and I doubt he would have handled the transition to Red Robin so goofily (much as I like the post-RIP continuity, pretty much all the transitions, including Steph's to Batgirl, were handled poorly). But for some reason, they derailed everything for FabNic's "oooh, Tim is so dark! And also can trick Shiva!" frustration of an ending for the longest Robin series.

----------


## KrustyKid

I know I'm in the minority here, but it was nice to see the Redbird back in the latest issue of Tec. I also enjoyed the interactions between JPV and Luke, not to mention the last bit with Tim and Bruce. I don't know about you guys, but I feel we just witnessed the beginning stages for why Mr Oz may have taken an interest in Tim with the given flashback. I guess time will tell.

Redbird for the win!

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I wouldn't mind Nite Owl. A while back Dixon wanted to make him Ted's successor, which also would have fit Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> I know I'm in the minority here, but it was nice to see the Redbird back in the latest issue of Tec. I also enjoyed the interactions between JPV and Luke, not to mention the last bit with Tim and Bruce. I don't know about you guys, but I feel we just witnessed the beginning stages for why Mr Oz may have taken an interest in Tim with the given flashback. I guess time will tell.


The whole Bruce is building an army for a War thing is a little bit wired since he allready did this with Batman Inc quite recently. (Not to mention the fact most of the other team with a connection to him like the Justice League, JLA, Dicks Titans, Jasons Outlaws and maybe even the Birds of Prey are more competent and bring more fire power to the Table than the 'Tec team.)

----------


## Atlanta96

> The whole Bruce is building an army for a War thing is a little bit wired since he allready did this with Batman Inc quite recently. (Not to mention the fact most of the other team with a connection to him like the Justice League, JLA, Dicks Titans, Jasons Outlaws and maybe even the Birds of Prey are more competent and bring more fire power to the Table than the 'Tec team.)


But the 'Tec team is more of a training group than those other teams, it makes sense that they're less competent and experienced because then they wouldn't require training.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know I'm in the minority here, but it was nice to see the Redbird back in the latest issue of Tec. I also enjoyed the interactions between JPV and Luke, not to mention the last bit with Tim and Bruce. I don't know about you guys, but I feel we just witnessed the beginning stages for why Mr Oz may have taken an interest in Tim with the given flashback. I guess time will tell.
> 
> Redbird for the win!


The Redbird made me smile a lot.  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

Finally caught up on this week's 'Tec. Nice to see Tim get some focus besides just another name-drop. Judging by how he questioned Bruce, it really sounds like he's going to have a significant role in the next big Batman event. He's the one person who's figured out that Bruce is preparing for some kind of war, that might lead into something.

Also, while I'm not a fan of the Redbird it's nice to see a callback to Tim's glory days. Hopefully his original origin will be restored as well.

----------


## KrustyKid

redbird_528_poster-450x257.jpg

Old school redbird

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## oasis1313

I could see a rebooted Nite Owl character.  Or Tim coming back as the new Ozymandias.

----------


## KrustyKid

Here are another couple names that came to mind Tim could possibly use for a code name(not including what has already been suggested); The Red Gumshoe, Detective Drake, Red Fox, Birdeye, Agent Red, Binocularsman, Red Mamba, Silent Spider, or Winged Snake.

----------


## Atlanta96

Keeping in line with the restaurant names there's also McRobin, Colonel Robin, and Chuck E. Robin.

Seriously DC, make him Nite Owl! Id like to see some fan art of that.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Keeping in line with the restaurant names there's also McRobin, Colonel Robin, and Chuck E. Robin.
> 
> Seriously DC, make him Nite Owl! Id like to see some fan art of that.


I'd be ok with Nite Owl as well. At this point I think it would be best for Tim to drop the 'Robin' from his name. If he does in fact get a name change

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'd be ok with Nite Owl as well. At this point I think it would be best for Tim to drop the 'Robin' from his name. If he does in fact get a name change


Yeah if you're going to move a character away from a mantle it should be a whole new identity instead of a tiny baby step away from the old one. They really screwed his character big time with that decision.

To be fair the Red Robin identity might have more meaning today if Tim was used well throughout the New 52. But we all know what happened.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah if you're going to move a character away from a mantle it should be a whole new identity instead of a tiny baby step away from the old one. They really screwed his character big time with that decision.
> 
> To be fair the Red Robin identity might have more meaning today if Tim was used well throughout the New 52. But we all know what happened.


It also doesn't help when he looks just like another.. robin. If Tim is to keep the Red Robin name, I would at least like for him to have a suit that distinguishes him from Robin. His pre-52 look was a good example of this.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink: 

tumblr_nzflvmGVFf1s5jz77o1_1280.jpg

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tumblr_nzflvmGVFf1s5jz77o3_1280.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

tumblr_nzflvmGVFf1s5jz77o4_1280.jpg

10char

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## KrustyKid

A couple more of Rebirth Tim

Red Robin Costume 05.jpg

Batch2.jpg

a089711f29453df96e4d6d39136fc409.jpg

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## Atlanta96

> A couple more of Rebirth Tim
> 
> Attachment 45015
> 
> Attachment 45017
> 
> Attachment 45018


Do you get all these off DeviantArt, or somewhere else?

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## Caivu

Early look at "Superman Reborn":

http://www.newsarama.com/33116-early...-part-one.html

----------


## KrustyKid

> Do you get all these off DeviantArt, or somewhere else?


DeviantArt as well as several other places.

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## KrustyKid

> Early look at "Superman Reborn":
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/33116-early...-part-one.html


I wonder what Tim does to help pass time in that little chamber.

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## Atlanta96

> I wonder what Tim does to help pass time in that little chamber.


I'm sure his suit has some built in entertainment. Minesweeper, Freecell, if he's lucky full internet access. Maybe he's been binging Futurama on Netflix this whole time. 




> Early look at "Superman Reborn":
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/33116-early...-part-one.html


I was hoping Tim would be the one to escape Oz, but I guess since it's a Superman story it should be someone Superman related. Still disappointed, I hope the story ends with everyone busted out including Tim. If he's not back by the end of The Button in April I think I'm going to start getting impatient.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm sure his suit has some built in entertainment. Minesweeper, Freecell, if he's lucky full internet access. Maybe he's been binging Futurama on Netflix this whole time. 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping Tim would be the one to escape Oz, but I guess since it's a Superman story it should be someone Superman related. Still disappointed, I hope the story ends with everyone busted out including Tim. If he's not back by the end of The Button in April I think I'm going to start getting impatient.


I was under the impression he would return sometime during or after the big rebirth event. Doesn't that not start until this summer?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I was under the impression he would return sometime during or after the big rebirth event. Doesn't that not start until this summer?


I mean, we don't know for sure. I'd expect it to be just before the big event and not during it, could be anywhere between late March and whenever the event actually starts.

But my birthday is in March so that would be the most appropriate month  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

427af3fdab8bb18755206eebdda98b25.jpg

708703a9a3302a5a2f3f986547d305c3.jpg

b90a33e2eb913089050b785d70b47ac5.jpg

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## thefiresky

> I'm sure his suit has some built in entertainment. Minesweeper, Freecell, if he's lucky full internet access. Maybe he's been binging Futurama on Netflix this whole time.


Honestly, I'll bet hes plotting something.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Honestly, I'll bet hes plotting something.


That, plus he'd have plenty of time to work out with a little yoga on the side.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Honestly, I'll bet hes plotting something.


Yeah, between episodes  :Smile: 

I wonder what the Robins favorite TV shows are. Tim seems like he'd enjoy stuff like the X-Files and Blacklist. Dick I'd guess Doctor Who and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think Damian is a big Game of Thrones fan.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah, between episodes 
> 
> I wonder what the Robins favorite TV shows are. Tim seems like he'd enjoy stuff like the X-Files and Blacklist. Dick I'd guess Doctor Who and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think Damian is a big Game of Thrones fan.


I could see that. Jason takes me as a guy who would pop out a beer and watch some reality TV, even if only for five to ten minutes.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I could see that. Jason takes me as a guy who would pop out a beer and watch some reality TV, even if only for five to ten minutes.


Yep, I bet he watches Family Guy too. He was never exactly the brains of the Family :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

More Rebirth Tim,

b55222ede80789142b1eb1945ad57e95.jpg

red_robin___rebirth_by_dragand-daeh12s.jpg

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## ComicBookGeek

> More Rebirth Tim,
> 45070
> 45071


Those are great!

----------


## josai21

FOr those who study personality types...What do you think Tim's Myer's Briggs is? Ennegram? Color?

Just some character analysis.

----------


## Caivu

> FOr those who study personality types...What do you think Tim's Myer's Briggs is? Ennegram? Color?
> 
> Just some character analysis.


I just took the 16 Personalities test answering as I thought Tim would, and got ENFJ-A, or Protagonist.

Someone who's more familiar with him can try their hand at it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Here are another couple names that came to mind Tim could possibly use for a code name(not including what has already been suggested); The Red Gumshoe, Detective Drake, Red Fox, Birdeye, Agent Red, Binocularsman, Red Mamba, Silent Spider, or Winged Snake.


We need the National Geographic Book of Birds.  How about . . . . Dodo?

----------


## KrustyKid

> We need the National Geographic Book of Birds.  How about . . . . Dodo?


Dodo birds look far from intimidating, lol. Though, I don't see why if he were to get a new name it would have to be bird themed. Something fitting to the character would do just fine.

----------


## KrustyKid

ol4dgy3y741ql5xn1o1_1280.jpg

sailor drake.jpg

sample-89b51e8f3da483f151713a2c0f401f33.jpg

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## Atlanta96

I just thought of this, wouldn't it be awesome if Tim was included in Injustice 2 as Nightwing? Dick is dead, Damian is Robin, so bringing him out of the Phantom Zone and making him Nightwing would be pretty cool. And his rivalry with Damian would lead to some interesting fight dialogue. Don't know if it's plausible or not but it might be a smart move.

----------


## oasis1313

> I just thought of this, wouldn't it be awesome if Tim was included in Injustice 2 as Nightwing? Dick is dead, Damian is Robin, so bringing him out of the Phantom Zone and making him Nightwing would be pretty cool. And his rivalry with Damian would lead to some interesting fight dialogue. Don't know if it's plausible or not but it might be a smart move.



No more Dead Dicks.  Can't stand it.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I just thought of this, wouldn't it be awesome if Tim was included in Injustice 2 as Nightwing? Dick is dead, Damian is Robin, so bringing him out of the Phantom Zone and making him Nightwing would be pretty cool. And his rivalry with Damian would lead to some interesting fight dialogue. Don't know if it's plausible or not but it might be a smart move.


Better stay out of it than die in an ignoble way.
Injustice could have been a great series but I can't suffer watching most of my heroes die in such that way (Dick, Kyle Rayner, Huntress, Guy Gardner, Jesse Quick), and I'm sure that Tim would unworthy be killed too.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Better stay out of it than die in an ignoble way.
> Injustice could have been a great series but I can't suffer watching most of my heroes die in such that way (Dick, Kyle Rayner, Huntress, Guy Gardner, Jesse Quick), and I'm sure that Tim would unworthy be killed too.


But, at least you'd get to beat the crap out of whatever character kills him (if that's what happens) in custom battles  :Smile: 

Also, he's currently stuck in the Phantom Zone in the Injustice universe, so dying would actually be a step up from his current situation.




> No more Dead Dicks.  Can't stand it.


He's already dead though.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim can be such a lovable dork sometimes  :Big Grin: 

Robin_116a.jpg

Robin_116b.jpg

Robin_116c.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

Robin_116d.jpg

Robin_116e.jpg

Robin_116f.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

Robin_116g.jpg

Robin_116h.jpg

Robin_116i.jpg

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## KrustyKid

> Robin_116g.jpg
> 
> Robin_116h.jpg
> 
> Robin_116i.jpg


I remember that issue. That's one thing I've missed, seeing Tim outside of costume more

----------


## Atlanta96

> I remember that issue. That's one thing I've missed, seeing Tim outside of costume more


Yeah I think we've seen him out of costume a total of 6 times since the reboot started. On top of his many other problems, New 52 Tim is so obsessed with being Red Robin that he threw out all his regular clothing.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah I think we've seen him out of costume a total of 6 times since the reboot started. On top of his many other problems, New 52 Tim is so obsessed with being Red Robin that he threw out all his regular clothing.


Which was a major let down. His life out of suit is a big part of who he was/should be.

----------


## godisawesome

Even the critics of the "Bruce-Lite" Red Robin Pre-Flashpoint would probably concede that Nicieza got that part right. Tim had Ives still, was hanging out and eating lunch with Tam Fox, and even his businessman moments were still written for a young man and provided some of those awkward moments that made him great. And even beyond that, a good Robin/Red Robin still thought like Tim Drake; New 52 Red Robin was almost always "on" without ever relaxing.

And there's a reason Tim taking off his mask and armor and just hanging out and making out with Steph was such a good and genuine moment in 'Tec.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Even the critics of the "Bruce-Lite" Red Robin Pre-Flashpoint would probably concede that Nicieza got that part right. Tim had Ives still, was hanging out and eating lunch with Tam Fox, and even his businessman moments were still written for a young man and provided some of those awkward moments that made him great. And even beyond that, a good Robin/Red Robin still thought like Tim Drake; New 52 Red Robin was almost always "on" without ever relaxing.
> 
> And there's a reason Tim taking off his mask and armor and just hanging out and making out with Steph was such a good and genuine moment in 'Tec.


Hopefully Tim get's further back to his roots when he returns

----------


## shadowsgirl

bat valentines  :Big Grin: 

bat_valentines_by_sidekick_clecle-d4patnd.jpg

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## KrustyKid

> bat valentines 
> 
> bat_valentines_by_sidekick_clecle-d4patnd.jpg


Lol, Tim and Dick are just down right creepy here. Jason with the corny pickup line, and Damian keeping it textbook. I like it.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Even the critics of the "Bruce-Lite" Red Robin Pre-Flashpoint would probably concede that Nicieza got that part right. Tim had Ives still, was hanging out and eating lunch with Tam Fox, and even his businessman moments were still written for a young man and provided some of those awkward moments that made him great. And even beyond that, a good Robin/Red Robin still thought like Tim Drake; New 52 Red Robin was almost always "on" without ever relaxing.
> 
> And there's a reason Tim taking off his mask and armor and just hanging out and making out with Steph was such a good and genuine moment in 'Tec.


Is it sad that seeing Tim without his mask, in a modern comic, felt surprising and unnatural? I mean yeah it was a good scene but it's been so long since we've seen Tim as an actual person and not just an obsessed vigilante that I was legit surprised. Really shows what an improvement 'Tex has been for the character, despite its flaws.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Lol, Tim and Dick are just down right creepy here. Jason with the corny pickup line, and Damian keeping it textbook. I like it.


Well, Tim is a creepy stalker from the beginning. I loved how he figured out everyone's secret identity and then never let them forget he knows who they are under the mask.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Adventures of Tim, the creepy stalker.  :Big Grin: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

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## millernumber1

> Yeah I think we've seen him out of costume a total of 6 times since the reboot started. On top of his many other problems, New 52 Tim is so obsessed with being Red Robin that he threw out all his regular clothing.


Huh, now that you mention it, that's very true. I quite liked the one time that you see him out of costume in Batman Eternal.

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

more creepiness

7.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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10char

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## Atlanta96

> 4.jpg
> 
> 5.jpg
> 
> 6.jpg


He reminds me of myself in middle school, when I'd strategically figure out the entire schedules of my classmates and rub it in their faces. No wonder I've always liked Tim  :Smile: 

I don't think he's creepy, I think he just doesn't realize how smart he is for figuring out all those identities. Any good vigilante would want to know as many secrets as possible, he just didn't know how to cleanly break the ice.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> He reminds me of myself in middle school, when I'd strategically figure out the entire schedules of my classmates and rub it in their faces. No wonder I've always liked Tim 
> 
> I don't think he's creepy, I think he just doesn't realize how smart he is for figuring out all those identities. Any good vigilante would want to know as many secrets as possible, he just didn't know how to cleanly break the ice.


He loves spying on people, of course he is creepy.  :Big Grin:  But that's okay, it's a bat thing.  :Big Grin:

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> 13.jpg
> 
> 10char


How much I'm missing the real Bart Allen  :Frown: 
He was such a lovable and funny boy. Tim, Kon & Bart deserve a Rebirth treatment.

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## shadowsgirl

> How much I'm missing the real Bart Allen 
> He was such a lovable and funny boy. Tim, Kon & Bart deserve a Rebirth treatment.


Yes, he was very sweet and likeable.  :Smile:  He was a little silly and careless in the beginning, but he's matured a lot over the years. New52 Bar Torr was a big slap in the face, it was painful to read.

----------


## Dominick1216

When Tam Fox, was in Tim's _Red Robin_ series, were they actually in a relationship (boyfriend/girlfriend)? Or were they playing it up for the media because of their fake engagement? Because didn't Tim still have feelings for Steph at the time?

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## KrustyKid

> When Tam Fox, was in Tim's _Red Robin_ series, were they actually in a relationship (boyfriend/girlfriend)? Or were they playing it up for the media because of their fake engagement? Because didn't Tim still have feelings for Steph at the time?


They were playing it off for the most part. But deep down I believe there was something there for both of them.

----------


## Atlanta96

> How much I'm missing the real Bart Allen 
> He was such a lovable and funny boy. Tim, Kon & Bart deserve a Rebirth treatment.


I bet that if they did a new Young Justice, with fully corrected versions of those characters (plus Cassie) it would do even better than the current Teen Titans run. The reputation of TT has been severely damaged by years of failures, Young Justice wouldn't have those issues and has great character relationships to play around with.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This song really fit to Tim. The "You’ll be my local hero, be my role model" and the "I’m your biggest fan, it’s so good to finally meet ya" lines are perfectly reflect Tim's early days. He was a huge Robin fan, and when he became the third Robin.... it was a monumental thing for him. That's what Lobdell didn't understand when he wrote Tim's new origin. Tim felt honoured to wear the Robin mantle, to follow the footsteps of his role models, Dick and Jason. For him, Batman was more than just a hero, he and the Robins meant the whole world to him.

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## KrustyKid

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## Atlanta96

Lobdell also didn't understand the impact of Tim becoming Robin. He really put the Bat-Family back on track by taking on the mantle and injecting some optimism into Bruce's life. In the New 52 origin he just shows up. It's meaningless and irrelevant, it fails the character in every way. I agree with people who say Tim is still in hot water as long as his revised origin is in place.

----------


## Jadeb

As an aside, Chuck Dixon is back at DC to do a 12-issue Bane mini!

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## KrustyKid

> As an aside, Chuck Dixon is back at DC to do a 12-issue Bane mini!


I'll definitely be checking that out.

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## KrustyKid

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## shadowsgirl

Tim's guitar solo is so badass. I love the Batmetal videos.  :Big Grin:

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## KrustyKid

Lol, I remember watching that a couple months ago

----------


## Browncoat Alex

Boy I really miss pre-flashpoint Tim.

I also really miss the Alex Ross Kingdom Come Red Robin costume that Tim had in his solo series.

I think that identity for Tim could have easily become as iconic as Nightwing for Dick, if only they had stuck with it. Now Red Robin is just a way of saying "He's Robin but not really".

----------


## KrustyKid

> Boy I really miss pre-flashpoint Tim.
> 
> I also really miss the Alex Ross Kingdom Come Red Robin costume that Tim had in his solo series.
> 
> I think that identity for Tim could have easily become as iconic as Nightwing for Dick, if only they had stuck with it. Now Red Robin is just a way of saying "He's Robin but not really".


That's kind of how I feel about it now.

----------


## godisawesome

There did seem to be a good push for "Red Robin" as his new "graduate" identity; it wasn't all that obnoxious, there was an organic reason for both the change and the similarity to the old identity, the character's aesthetic and MO was changing to adapt to a particular niche different from his old one, they were making some headway towards other media appearances (Arkham games and Batman Unlimited) to feature the change, and they even masterfully integrated his new identity into a new Batfamily paradigm. Red Robin was one of the leading books in proving that the Gotham corner of the DCU could run without Bruce, and that even with him back, they could keep expanding outwards.

Honestly, I kind of think Tim was hurt in part by the decision to push Dick back into Nightwing and into the mid card role that he'd gotten out of as Batman. Don't get me wrong: Tim wasn't proved redundant (because they shifted Tim around as well) and Grayson was an excellent turn for Nightwing. But it does kind of give the message that a) Nightwing is traditionally the top Robin "graduate", and since b) DC continues to see Nightwing as a Midgard character when the character has proven hems A-Level, then since a) equals b), then c) Tim Drake was relegated to a C-lister in the New 52. I love Bane, and I love the Crime Syndicate, but Dick shouldn't be jobbing to them. And since he's jobbing to them, Tim had to be portrayed as even below a jobber. He was  inconsequential to the New 52 paradigm, because they refused to exploit proven avenues for Batfamily expansion, and wanted to pull a Vincent McMahon move by recapturing an antiquated status quo that wasn't all that good on the first place.

I want Tim back, I want his Robin history back, and I want him to have grown since 1990. And part of my fear is that DC is still gunshot of growth even though they have irrefutable evidence that, at least in Gotham, _it really works._

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## KrustyKid

> There did seem to be a good push for "Red Robin" as his new "graduate" identity; it wasn't all that obnoxious, there was an organic reason for both the change and the similarity to the old identity, the character's aesthetic and MO was changing to adapt to a particular niche different from his old one, they were making some headway towards other media appearances (Arkham games and Batman Unlimited) to feature the change, and they even masterfully integrated his new identity into a new Batfamily paradigm. Red Robin was one of the leading books in proving that the Gotham corner of the DCU could run without Bruce, and that even with him back, they could keep expanding outwards.
> 
> Honestly, I kind of think Tim was hurt in part by the decision to push Dick back into Nightwing and into the mid card role that he'd gotten out of as Batman. Don't get me wrong: Tim wasn't proved redundant (because they shifted Tim around as well) and Grayson was an excellent turn for Nightwing. But it does kind of give the message that a) Nightwing is traditionally the top Robin "graduate", and since b) DC continues to see Nightwing as a Midgard character when the character has proven hems A-Level, then since a) equals b), then c) Tim Drake was relegated to a C-lister in the New 52. I love Bane, and I love the Crime Syndicate, but Dick shouldn't be jobbing to them. And since he's jobbing to them, Tim had to be portrayed as even below a jobber. He was  inconsequential to the New 52 paradigm, because they refused to exploit proven avenues for Batfamily expansion, and wanted to pull a Vincent McMahon move by recapturing an antiquated status quo that wasn't all that good on the first place.
> 
> I want Tim back, I want his Robin history back, and I want him to have grown since 1990. And part of my fear is that DC is still gunshot of growth even though they have irrefutable evidence that, at least in Gotham, _it really works._


A lot of good points here

----------


## Atlanta96

Red Robin was a great series initially but that direction really screwed Tim over in the long run. A lot of writers still fail to realize how competitive comics are, and how even with good writing taking characters in the wrong direction has consequences. In Tim's case it was isolation from the rest of the Family and an identity that failed to signal his importance or set him apart from Robin. It made sense at the time but in the end it did more harm than good for the character.

This is why I always consider the long term impacts of creative decisions. Comics are a popularity contest, characters depend on the right choices in order to succeed. Red Robin gave Tim a good series but may have failed him overall.

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## shadowsgirl

Just a little old school Timmy stuff  :Big Grin: 

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## KrustyKid

Gotta love the classics

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## shadowsgirl

Yeah, it's always fun to read the old comics with Tim, these are never disappointing me.

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## Atlanta96

> 7.jpg
> 
> 8.jpg
> 
> 9.jpg


Hey, this is post #2000 for this thread! We made it!

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## shadowsgirl

Cool, I didn't even notice.  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

> Red Robin was a great series initially but that direction really screwed Tim over in the long run. A lot of writers still fail to realize how competitive comics are, and how even with good writing taking characters in the wrong direction has consequences. In Tim's case it was isolation from the rest of the Family and an identity that failed to signal his importance or set him apart from Robin. It made sense at the time but in the end it did more harm than good for the character.
> 
> This is why I always consider the long term impacts of creative decisions. Comics are a popularity contest, characters depend on the right choices in order to succeed. Red Robin gave Tim a good series but may have failed him overall.


I'm always curious about that criticism. Red Robin, especially in its latter, Nicieza-penned arcs, was still heavily based in Gotham and constantly utilizing Gotham characters fro its plots. Tim was traveling the world and operating largely solo, but it was an evolutionary development, or at least an attempt at such. Damian and Dick were constant fixtures as foils to Tim's new paradigm, showcasing his growth and his regression, and his new position vis-a-vie the Batgirls was likewise based off foiling his past with his present. The new status quo was largely just an extrapolation of Tim's Dixonian travels abroad, repackaged to feature more Machialvellian scheming.

Now, I will say that his Red Robin identity was, at the time, tailor-made for the Batman RIP era. Damian and Dick were an effective reversal of the Batman and Robin dynamic, so Tim using a Robin-based codename and holding a solo that advanced his earlier adventures was still occupying his classic niche in Bat-comics, with just a touch more Nightwing-esque autonomy, which also worked since Dick was occupied as Batman. Even Tim's look kind of carried on this "graduate" evolution; the costume was by and large a simplified Robin suit, but with a cowl that altered the profile and played into Tim's intellect and modifying his overall aesthetic to stand out from his brothers.

In contrast, Tim's New 52 Red Robin identity loses all that: his costume both gets more complicated while also losing the cowl and its aesthetic for a more clearly Nightwing-esque design, all while without his old solo stomping grounds and while Dick was taking over his old solo role. And since they were relegating Tim to Teen Titans and trying to recast the entire brand, it really was as the reverse of the RIP status quo: instead of continuing to occupy his own niche, Tim was shearing off some of Dick's. And the New 52 scheme seemed conceptually opposite of RIP Tim, what with the exclusive focus on Teen Titans and the decision to eliminate his graduation, when his evolution had been his point and he wasn't even a full Titan until that books last arc.

I really don't see how the Red Robin solo was harmful, at least once the initial arc ended.

----------


## KrustyKid

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## Jadeb

> I really don't see how the Red Robin solo was harmful, at least once the initial arc ended.


I don't think that series was the problem, per se. More that it was the product of DC's terrible decision to inflict an absurd amount of suffering on a character that was, at its core, an optimistic Everyman. Tim went from a reader proxy bringing light into Batman's world to perhaps the most tortured character in the Bat universe. I can see why some people like the latter incarnation, but, for me, Tim's world became an unpleasant place to visit and Tim became someone to be pitied.

Red Robin, the series, was pretty good, but Red Robin, the character, was emblematic of DC's worst tendencies during a schlocky period of gore and cheap deaths.

----------


## Browncoat Alex

> I don't think that series was the problem, per se. More that it was the product of DC's terrible decision to inflict an absurd amount of suffering on a character that was, at its core, an optimistic Everyman. Tim went from a reader proxy bringing light into Batman's world to perhaps the most tortured character in the Bat universe. I can see why some people like the latter incarnation, but, for me, Tim's world became an unpleasant place to visit and Tim became someone to be pitied.
> 
> Red Robin, the series, was pretty good, but Red Robin, the character, was emblematic of DC's worst tendencies during a schlocky period of gore and cheap deaths.


I personally disagree. In the first arc I would agree with you, but as others have said that was contextually appropriate as it was Tim's grieving period for Bruce. I think as the series went on Tim modified the Red Robin persona to suit his own personality more, and that optimism returned. This was even evident when Tim slightly modified the costume to make it more streamlined. A big part of that series was about Tim changing the Red Robin identity into something that he could own.

And to be honest, I'll take a series with unnecessary amounts of suffering over a completely irrelevant character with bat-fink wings any day.

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## Aahz

> I don't think that series was the problem, per se. More that it was the product of DC's terrible decision to inflict an absurd amount of suffering on a character that was, at its core, an optimistic Everyman.


But that was done way before he became Red Robin, that started already with War Games.

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## shadowsgirl

:Wink: 

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## Red obin

> But that was done way before he became Red Robin, that started already with War Games.


Well there was also that one time where DC killed off his Dad and best friend as well as his girlfriend in around that time too, and this is where he really began walking down that dark path.

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## Aahz

> Well there was also that one time where DC killed off his Dad and best friend as well as his girlfriend in around that time too, and this is where he really began walking down that dark path.


War Games was when they killed his girl friend, but the thing is that the death of Staph and his father where in 2004, Conner and Bart died irrc in 2005 or 2006, and he didn't became Red Robin untill 2009, at least Steph had already returned at this point and Bart and Conner returned soon afterwards.

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## Red obin

> War Games was when they killed his girl friend, but the thing is that the death of Staph and his father where in 2004, Conner and Bart died irrc in 2005 or 2006, and he didn't became Red Robin untill 2009, at least Steph had already returned at this point and Bart and Conner returned soon afterwards.


Yeah that is what i meant to imply, he went through a tough time in 2004/2005 with those who were closest to him dying.

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## godisawesome

> I don't think that series was the problem, per se. More that it was the product of DC's terrible decision to inflict an absurd amount of suffering on a character that was, at its core, an optimistic Everyman. Tim went from a reader proxy bringing light into Batman's world to perhaps the most tortured character in the Bat universe. I can see why some people like the latter incarnation, but, for me, Tim's world became an unpleasant place to visit and Tim became someone to be pitied.
> 
> Red Robin, the series, was pretty good, but Red Robin, the character, was emblematic of DC's worst tendencies during a schlocky period of gore and cheap deaths.


The darkly humorous part about Tim's suffering was how unintentional the cumulative effect was. No one at DC set out to totally destroy Tim's world, it just kind of all resulted from numerous subpar decisions across the entire DC line.

DC did decide outright to kill Tim's dad in Identity Crisis. There's no doubt about that, and according to some reports, Chuck Dixon had his work cut out trying to stop that from happening even earlier. Steph's death was planned out at the same time, though it doesn't feel like the two events were intentionally paired together, more that DC had a miniseries they wanted big things to happen in and a Batman crossover with a horrible consequence phase. Tim was meant to be impacted by the former, but only suffered from the latter thanks to the fact that his writers weren't so incompetent as to not use the moment for some power. Infinite Crisis wound up eventually killing Kon, Bart, and Dana, but even that impact on Tim was unintentional, and by most accounts, no one intended for Dana to die, it just wound up becoming an accepted interpretation of her disappearance.

And then of course, most of those deaths were undone because they were strictly shock deaths. By the time of the Red Robin series, only Jack Drake and Dana were still dead, and with Bruce's death known to be temporary. That's why the Red Robin series had a very different, very Dixonian latter half; Tim's friends were all back, and it'd been years since Jack Drake's death, with Dana being rather heartlessly discarded. And Nicieza was pretty quick to try and reintegrate some of that dichotomous normalcy into Tim's life, albeit more a a foil and a feature, and that really made it feel like an evolution.

Me? I like the idea of the Batfamily evolving, but I do like having his family alive. It's why my preferred outcome would be to actually try and use Lobdell's best idea from his otherwise wretched new origin, though I'd mix it with A Lonely Place for Dying, so you can integrate his old continuity with a bit of hand waving. Tim's parents are in witness protection because of the Penguin having a grudge against them from a long time ago, and he's separated from them, though that's because he's trying to get the Penguin off their back and he was the one who called in Batman to help, having formed an excellent hypothesis about Batman's secret identity based off his observations of the Robins and the evidence for a forensics accounting coverup.

So Tim's parents would still be alive, but he'd be separated from them during those stories where they're apart. Tim would still have his boarding school history, and still travel the world to get his skills, but now under the pretense of Drake family friend Bruce Wayne helping keep him safe while Jack and Janet recover from injuries sustained by Penguin's attack. And this is just a personal thing, but I'd kind of like Tim's mom to be the more supportive of his activities, just to change up the formula where everyone in Gotham seems to have a more plot-relevant relationship with their father.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The darkly humorous part about Tim's suffering was how unintentional the cumulative effect was. No one at DC set out to totally destroy Tim's world, it just kind of all resulted from numerous subpar decisions across the entire DC line.
> 
> DC did decide outright to kill Tim's dad in Identity Crisis. There's no doubt about that, and according to some reports, Chuck Dixon had his work cut out trying to stop that from happening even earlier. Steph's death was planned out at the same time, though it doesn't feel like the two events were intentionally paired together, more that DC had a miniseries they wanted big things to happen in and a Batman crossover with a horrible consequence phase. Tim was meant to be impacted by the former, but only suffered from the latter thanks to the fact that his writers weren't so incompetent as to not use the moment for some power. Infinite Crisis wound up eventually killing Kon, Bart, and Dana, but even that impact on Tim was unintentional, and by most accounts, no one intended for Dana to die, it just wound up becoming an accepted interpretation of her disappearance.
> 
> And then of course, most of those deaths were undone because they were strictly shock deaths. By the time of the Red Robin series, only Jack Drake and Dana were still dead, and with Bruce's death known to be temporary. That's why the Red Robin series had a very different, very Dixonian latter half; Tim's friends were all back, and it'd been years since Jack Drake's death, with Dana being rather heartlessly discarded. And Nicieza was pretty quick to try and reintegrate some of that dichotomous normalcy into Tim's life, albeit more a a foil and a feature, and that really made it feel like an evolution.
> 
> Me? I like the idea of the Batfamily evolving, but I do like having his family alive. It's why my preferred outcome would be to actually try and use Lobdell's best idea from his otherwise wretched new origin, though I'd mix it with A Lonely Place for Dying, so you can integrate his old continuity with a bit of hand waving. Tim's parents are in witness protection because of the Penguin having a grudge against them from a long time ago, and he's separated from them, though that's because he's trying to get the Penguin off their back and he was the one who called in Batman to help, having formed an excellent hypothesis about Batman's secret identity based off his observations of the Robins and the evidence for a forensics accounting coverup.
> 
> So Tim's parents would still be alive, but he'd be separated from them during those stories where they're apart. Tim would still have his boarding school history, and still travel the world to get his skills, but now under the pretense of Drake family friend Bruce Wayne helping keep him safe while Jack and Janet recover from injuries sustained by Penguin's attack. And this is just a personal thing, but I'd kind of like Tim's mom to be the more supportive of his activities, just to change up the formula where everyone in Gotham seems to have a more plot-relevant relationship with their father.


Agreed, I'd like to see Tim and his mother's (Janet) relationship explored, even if a little bit. It would be a nice little change up.

----------


## Atlanta96

The fact that so many of Tim's friends and allies were killed off in unrelated stories really shows how much more important he was back then. All these independent story decisions had such an effect on him, that would never happen nowadays. He doesn't have the same presence in the DCU to be affected by developments in the Bat-books or major events anymore. For now at least, hopefully that will change. But not until he scraps Red Robin and gains an identity that actually elicits importance.

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## KrustyKid

> The fact that so many of Tim's friends and allies were killed off in unrelated stories really shows how much more important he was back then. All these independent story decisions had such an effect on him, that would never happen nowadays. He doesn't have the same presence in the DCU to be affected by developments in the Bat-books or major events anymore. For now at least, hopefully that will change. But not until he scraps Red Robin and gains an identity that actually elicits importance.


Identity change will do little if he is still treated like a 4th tier

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## Atlanta96

> Identity change will do little if he is still treated like a 4th tier


Agreed, but it wouldn't hurt  :Smile:

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## shadowsgirl

I miss these guys so much. Their interactions were always pure gold. I really want the real Tim, Conner and Bart back.  :Frown: 

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## shadowsgirl

Tim is a beast, when he is angry. 

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## KrustyKid

> Attachment 45500
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> 
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Tim put in some work that night

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## The Whovian

Someone post these on King's twitter feed

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## KrustyKid

> Someone post these on King's twitter feed


Lol. But in all fairness I believe King is only referring to New 52 Tim, who honestly hasn't really impressed. Still would have him over Duke/Steph though

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## Atlanta96

> Someone post these on King's twitter feed


I sent him a few pages of Tim beating Damian, one of them was even New 52.

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## shadowsgirl

Tim's greatest feats

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...ect_tim_drake/

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## shadowsgirl

Do you remember that time, when Tim wanted to leave Batman and join to the army? The Veteran and his Special Forces fought monsters and extraordinary threats all the time, and Tim seriously wanted to join the unit. After a few months, he really started to relate to them, but in the end, he chose Batman over them. 

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

What do you think, who was the mysterious immortal behind the wall? It was not Vandal Savage, so who could it be? I know that we probably will never know, but it such a shame. I loved that series, screw the New52, it destroyed everything.  :Mad: 

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## shadowsgirl

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## KrustyKid

We can only leave it to our imagination, lol

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## shadowsgirl

But it's not fair.  :Big Grin:  And I want to know what's up with Lynx II. Was she a cop, or just a criminal? So many unanswered questions  :Frown:

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## KrustyKid

> But it's not fair.  And I want to know what's up with Lynx II. Was she a cop, or just a criminal? So many unanswered questions


I know the sad feeling

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## shadowsgirl

Geoff said that the Screw52 is actually the old universe, just some outside force altered it. Is there hope? Could we get our Tim back? If his memories come back, he will remember everything? It's official, I hate unanswered questions.  :Big Grin:  The Rebirth story is too long, I'm just about losing my patience. Tim "died" almost a half year ago, enough is enough.

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## josai21

> Geoff said that the Screw52 is actually the old universe, just some outside force altered it. Is there hope? Could we get our Tim back? If his memories come back, he will remember everything? It's official, I hate unanswered questions.  The Rebirth story is too long, I'm just about losing my patience. Tim "died" almost a half year ago, enough is enough.


Ugh...stop posting old mysteries I thought I could leave buried. 

Seriously though...I thought time had healed the hatred I had for the N52 and the loss of the Red Robin series. Guess not.

Why can't we have our Tim back!

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## KrustyKid

> Geoff said that the Screw52 is actually the old universe, just some outside force altered it. Is there hope? Could we get our Tim back? If his memories come back, he will remember everything? It's official, I hate unanswered questions.  The Rebirth story is too long, I'm just about losing my patience. Tim "died" almost a half year ago, enough is enough.


In a Bane like voice "Your punishment must be much more serve"

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## Sardorim

> What do you think, who was the mysterious immortal behind the wall? It was not Vandal Savage, so who could it be? I know that we probably will never know, but it such a shame. I loved that series, screw the New52, it destroyed everything. 
> 
> Attachment 45580
> 
> Attachment 45581
> 
> Attachment 45582


I miss Tim and Cassandra teaming up.

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## Atlanta96

> Geoff said that the Screw52 is actually the old universe, just some outside force altered it. Is there hope? Could we get our Tim back? If his memories come back, he will remember everything? It's official, I hate unanswered questions.  The Rebirth story is too long, I'm just about losing my patience. Tim "died" almost a half year ago, enough is enough.


I doubt Tim will get every single Pre-Flashpoint memory back, the most we can hope for is his origin. There's only one possible reason he won't get his old origin back: If the writers in charge of him don't actually care about or understand his character. Because it takes an epic lack of understanding to think his New origin works better than the old one.

And I am growing impatient with the lack of Tim in the DCU as well, I think I can hold out until next April until I start calling BS on the amount of time in limbo.

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## shadowsgirl

> Ugh...stop posting old mysteries I thought I could leave buried. 
> 
> Seriously though...I thought time had healed the hatred I had for the N52 and the loss of the Red Robin series. Guess not.
> 
> Why can't we have our Tim back!


Well, I can't move on either, so we can suffer together.  :Big Grin:

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## shadowsgirl

> I doubt Tim will get every single Pre-Flashpoint memory back, the most we can hope for is his origin. There's only one possible reason he won't get his old origin back: If the writers in charge of him don't actually care about or understand his character. Because it takes an epic lack of understanding to think his New origin works better than the old one.
> 
> And I am growing impatient with the lack of Tim in the DCU as well, I think I can hold out until next April until I start calling BS on the amount of time in limbo.


But without his Robin history, he never will be the same again. Superman remembers everything because he came from the old universe, so maybe there is hope. I want to believe it, because 20 years character development was thrown out of the window, and after all this time, I'm still pissed. The real Tim needs to come back ASAP.

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## shadowsgirl

> I miss Tim and Cassandra teaming up.



Me too. I liked their friendship. At the beginning, Tim behaved reservedly toward her, but then they became good friends. In the Batgirl series, Tim admitted that he was deliberately avoiding her.

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## Atlanta96

> But without his Robin history, he never will be the same again. Superman remembers everything because he came from the old universe, so maybe there is hope. I want to believe it, because 20 years character development was thrown out of the window, and after all this time, I'm still pissed. The real Tim needs to come back ASAP.


His history in the Bat-books should be easy for the most part, like his time as Robin and relations with the rest of the Family. It's his history outside of Batman where things get complicated. I don't know how they can restore his Teen Titans continuity into the DCU at the moment, especially since Titans Hunt just happened.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> His history in the Bat-books should be easy for the most part, like his time as Robin and relations with the rest of the Family. It's his history outside of Batman where things get complicated. I don't know how they can restore his Teen Titans continuity into the DCU at the moment, especially since Titans Hunt just happened.


But Steph, Cass and Azrael are all part of his history. All of them have a new, lame origin, so it's not that simple either. His parents are a big problem, too, their deaths motivated Tim in a lot of ways.  Conner, Bart and his father's absence were critical points in his character development, without these sad experiments, Tim is a different person. Without the loss of his loved once, the events of the Red Robin series couldn't happen. I know Tynion is obsessed with Tim from the 90's, but his maturity and tons of deep stuff came from after Identity Crises. Tim was always serious and conscious, but his really journey and development started with these things.

----------


## KrustyKid

Speaking of characters in limbo, where the heck did Shazam go to? Has he been appearing in anything since Rebirth?

----------


## thefiresky

This has probably been mentioned a hundred times, but I'm getting real upset about Tim not being in Rebirth. I feel like I'm going to look back on rebirth and chalk it up as "That time they took Tim Drake out of comics for a year plus". Mad af #bringbackdrake

----------


## KrustyKid

> This has probably been mentioned a hundred times, but I'm getting real upset about Tim not being in Rebirth. I feel like I'm going to look back on rebirth and chalk it up as "That time they took Tim Drake out of comics for a year plus". Mad af #bringbackdrake


#maketimgreatagain

----------


## Atlanta96

> This has probably been mentioned a hundred times, but I'm getting real upset about Tim not being in Rebirth. I feel like I'm going to look back on rebirth and chalk it up as "That time they took Tim Drake out of comics for a year plus". Mad af #bringbackdrake


I think it'll be closer to 7 or 8 months. We lost him in October, pretty sure he'll be back by April or May. It still feels like I've waited a decade plus.

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat Family by 0yongyong0



They're cats  :Embarrassment:  Maybe they should be the Catfamily

----------


## shadowsgirl

Well, Tim goes by the name "Catlad" in certain circles. 

catlad.jpg

catlad_tumblr_lis7a20AZ51qbv41po1_1280.jpg

PvjybjY.jpg.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink:   :Big Grin:   :Cool: 

tumblr_lm4p08H6Yo1qc5zcko1_1280 tim cat damian_1.jpg

tumblr_lm4p08H6Yo1qc5zcko1_1280 tim cat damian_2.jpg

tumblr_lm4p08H6Yo1qc5zcko1_1280 tim cat damian_3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

tumblr_lm4p08H6Yo1qc5zcko1_1280 tim cat damian_4.jpg

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Cool: 

catboy_strikes_again_by_crimsonhorror-d3ecdgt.jpg

hu.pinterest.com.jpg

tumblr_inline_nom6ynvyGG1sz7x1l_500.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well, Tim goes by the name "Catlad" in certain circles. 
> 
> Attachment 45765
> 
> Attachment 45766
> 
> Attachment 45767


Is he an apprentice of CatWoman?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Is he an apprentice of CatWoman?


Yes, and he really likes shiny stuff  :Big Grin:  

tumblr_inline_nom6innPoX1sz7x1l_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

catlad_tumblr_inline_mm6ngtDilb1qz4rgp.jpg

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

tumblr_lmzykyUQoT1qdtls8o1_500.jpg

10char

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yes, and he really likes shiny stuff  
> 
> tumblr_inline_nom6innPoX1sz7x1l_1280.jpg


Nice. Who doesn't like shiny baubles?  :Smile:

----------


## CPSparkles

> catlad_tumblr_inline_mm6ngtDilb1qz4rgp.jpg
> 
> 10char


How are Tim and Selina in the comics? Have they interacted?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Nice. Who doesn't like shiny baubles?


Those are the best.  :Big Grin:  About Catlad, I read that Catwoman adopted him.  :Big Grin:  Actually, it could be an interesting elseworld story, Tim the master cat burglar.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> How are Tim and Selina in the comics? Have they interacted?


In the old timeline, yes, they met a lot of times. 

Robin_issue 028_1.jpg

Robin_issue 028_2.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Here, Tim is babysitting Selina's daughter.

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Bat Family by 0yongyong0
> 
> 
> 
> They're cats  Maybe they should be the Catfamily


Nice! I like it!

----------


## Jadeb

DC released an image of a certain returning character *spoilers:*
Jay Garrick
*end of spoilers* paying homage to *spoilers:*
Flash no. 1
*end of spoilers* and at the bottom they've deliberately changed text to include mention of Red Robin! Wonder what it could mean?

----------


## The Whovian

> DC released an image of a certain returning character *spoilers:*
> Jay Garrick
> *end of spoilers* paying homage to *spoilers:*
> Flash no. 1
> *end of spoilers* and at the bottom they've deliberately changed text to include mention of Red Robin! Wonder what it could mean?


Do you have a link to this? I haven't seen it

----------


## Jadeb

http://community.comicbookresources....ns-in-Flash-22

----------


## The Whovian

> http://community.comicbookresources....ns-in-Flash-22


Thank you!  :Smile: 

I didn't see the text though that mentions Red Robin

----------


## Jadeb

Look down at the very bottom left. On the original cover, it says "Cliff Cornwall"

----------


## The Whovian

> Look down at the very bottom left. On the original cover, it says "Cliff Cornwall"


Oh yeah, now I see it. I have no idea why it's there.  :Confused:

----------


## Jadeb

I hope it's a hint that Tim will be a major player in the storyline -- a featured character, like Cliff was -- and not just a reference to his abduction (and what he saw in the cryptic tease).

----------


## thefiresky

> Oh yeah, now I see it. I have no idea why it's there.


I think it was added to encourage RR fans that all hope is not lost!

----------


## The Whovian

> I hope it's a hint that Tim will be a major player in the storyline -- a featured character, like Cliff was -- and not just a reference to his abduction (and what he saw in the cryptic tease).


I want Tim back badly, but I want his return to happen in a Batman book, not the Flash.

----------


## godisawesome

Is this maybe suggesting that Jay Garrick is one of Oz's prisoners, next to Tim?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Is this maybe suggesting that Jay Garrick is one of Oz's prisoners, next to Tim?


That's an interesting theory

----------


## Frontier

> Is this maybe suggesting that Jay Garrick is one of Oz's prisoners, next to Tim?


I've been assuming Jay was either with the rest of the JSA in whatever limbo the Thunderbolt put them in or in the Speed Force like Wally and apparently Thawne were, but that's also possible. 

It would explain the tease to Red Robin and connect the Rebirth sub-plots together.

----------


## Jadeb

> I want Tim back badly, but I want his return to happen in a Batman book, not the Flash.


I expect the JSA return will span multiple books and tie in with the whole Mr. Oz mystery. So I'm hoping Tim gets a big role to play in the overall storyline.

----------


## godisawesome

Jay would kind of fit the profile for another major character from Pre-Flashpoint who Oz may have removed because he threatens the New 52 timeline. Jay was arguably the highest profile JSA member because he kept on appearing in Flash stories, so maybe he had to be taken totally off the field by Oz to stop him from interfering. Meanwhile, Tim was initially going the way "he was supposed to" and then, when he started heading toward his Pre-Flashpoint characterization, he got removed.

Come to think of it, I would then build on my theory by having Pre-Flashpoint Bart be the last occupant; perhaps Jay and he have been silently communicating while as Oz's prisoners to help Wally, who was free, get back to the time stream, and Bart was also affecting his body Tim, because he figured Tim could help?

----------


## Frontier

Honestly, I think Oz is more likely to have Bart then he does Jay, unless Jay did something prior to the rest of the JSA vanishing that kept him separated from them and allowed Oz to pick him up. 

Though if it's connected to Thawne's return, it might all be Speed Force related. 

Oz having Bart fits in with Tim's status quo being part of the build-up to a Rebirth for _Young Justice_.

----------


## Atlanta96

I wonder how they're going to justify keeping Tim in limbo for this damn long. They can say he needed to be a prisoner for a precise moment in the story later on, but why get rid of him after only 6 issues of 'Tec? Was it because he needed to be allegedly dead for Teen Titans Rebirth to kick off?

----------


## Jadeb

I've suspected all along that they tabled Tim because he is a "name" but is seen within DC as being of little consequence. And yeah, I'm guessing the TT relaunch was part of it.

----------


## godisawesome

I choose, at this moment, to believe they shuffled him off so suddenly because A) they felt he and his peers were in need of huge restructuring for Rebirth, and B) they were all still too high profile to just replace with new versions, so C) they needed to effect repairs in a good way, and D) they wanted to restore some confidence before the retool, so they had Tim get a light makeover before disappearing.

 The New 52 had two separate Teen Titans books that they spent a lot of time and effort trying to cement as the original and only Titans teams, and they tried at first to make it the core of the entire Young Justice line. It failed. It failed hard. So, they want a do-over; they want to take their mistakes and erase them and relaunch the characters, preferably in such a way that the YJ4 can all regain strength and multiple books can be spun out. However, of the YJ4, Cassie has never held a profile big enough to center a reboot storyline around, Bart was screwed up so bad the goodwill his fans had was used up, and Superboy was turned into the New 52 version of Hawkman, but with even less success and someone else taking his IP away.

Enter Tim Drake. He's still been messed up by the New 52, and is still a symbol for how wrong it could go. But he's still a popular character, and he remains arguably the most high profile of the YJ4 thanks to his long-lasting solo series history and multi-media appearances. He's also had appearances in Batman comics that were generally approved of, if not lauded as they once were, and those appearances still honored the New 52 changes, but rather importantly, _tried not to focus on them._ Tim Drake is thus the gateway for rebuilding the YJ4; you do some test-running of how open the fanbase is to some reconstruction via an old school costume and a relationship with Stephanie Brown. It works, fans are excited, though they still groan about the few trappings of the New 52 still present on him. No problem; your goal is to remove those. 

So you have Tim taken away by Oz as a representative of how the New 52 hurt the Batbrand, in the same way that Wally's return works for the Flash brand and all the Superman shenanigans work. You have a personification of the New 52 changes react aggressively towards Tim taking steps back towards his Pre-Flashpoint, thus tying the idea of his New 52 flaws to an antagonist instead of simple bad writing. Then you see if there is still enough interest that bringing him back and returning some of his previous history will work.

At least, I hope that's what's happening.

----------


## Jadeb

I hope you're right, and that he's going to get some huge retcons as the result of his abduction.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim's arguably the prefect candidate for this kind of "surgical reboot that's still contiguous to his New 52 adventures" theory I've come up with. Most of the other issues with the Batfamily from the New 52 are either simple to fix, still a bit contentious, or some mixture of the two. Nightwing getting his Titans back was explained via a quick memory erasure retcon and is tied into Wally West, so he's taken care of. Batwoman was waylaid by an ill-timed and I'll-conceived editorial edict, so she only needs a fresh start. Jason was arguably pretty successful but somewhat unpopular outside his fanbase, so he just needed a revarnished books.

The Batgirls would arguably be better served by some fixing, but the Bat-editorial board had already kind of done that by bringing back Cass and Steph, though you can tell there's still some fear about having the Batgril mantle shared hurting the brand (cowards). And adding Oracle, to Babs history was also a simple retcon.

Tim's the perfect candidate because he's still a prolific solo comic lead thanks to _Robin_ and _Red Robin_, but still has a lot of anger and frustration in his fanbase centered around the New 52 changes. He's still valuable enough as an IP that you don't want to dump him, but you can tell he needs some retooling, and it's going to have to be on a larger scale than a simple retcon, since so many of the editorial decisions around the character opposed his core characteristics.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I choose, at this moment, to believe they shuffled him off so suddenly because A) they felt he and his peers were in need of huge restructuring for Rebirth, and B) they were all still too high profile to just replace with new versions, so C) they needed to effect repairs in a good way, and D) they wanted to restore some confidence before the retool, so they had Tim get a light makeover before disappearing.
> 
>  The New 52 had two separate Teen Titans books that they spent a lot of time and effort trying to cement as the original and only Titans teams, and they tried at first to make it the core of the entire Young Justice line. It failed. It failed hard. So, they want a do-over; they want to take their mistakes and erase them and relaunch the characters, preferably in such a way that the YJ4 can all regain strength and multiple books can be spun out. However, of the YJ4, Cassie has never held a profile big enough to center a reboot storyline around, Bart was screwed up so bad the goodwill his fans had was used up, and Superboy was turned into the New 52 version of Hawkman, but with even less success and someone else taking his IP away.
> 
> Enter Tim Drake. He's still been messed up by the New 52, and is still a symbol for how wrong it could go. But he's still a popular character, and he remains arguably the most high profile of the YJ4 thanks to his long-lasting solo series history and multi-media appearances. He's also had appearances in Batman comics that were generally approved of, if not lauded as they once were, and those appearances still honored the New 52 changes, but rather importantly, _tried not to focus on them._ Tim Drake is thus the gateway for rebuilding the YJ4; you do some test-running of how open the fanbase is to some reconstruction via an old school costume and a relationship with Stephanie Brown. It works, fans are excited, though they still groan about the few trappings of the New 52 still present on him. No problem; your goal is to remove those. 
> 
> So you have Tim taken away by Oz as a representative of how the New 52 hurt the Batbrand, in the same way that Wally's return works for the Flash brand and all the Superman shenanigans work. You have a personification of the New 52 changes react aggressively towards Tim taking steps back towards his Pre-Flashpoint, thus tying the idea of his New 52 flaws to an antagonist instead of simple bad writing. Then you see if there is still enough interest that bringing him back and returning some of his previous history will work.
> 
> At least, I hope that's what's happening.


Good post as always, but the plan you described seems just a little too well thought out for DC. I mean, I hope everything you said is true and Tim's time in limbo does serve the purpose of completely retooling and saving the character. But I'm still holding back trust in DC after the New 52 and even the shortcomings of Rebirth, so I'm still nervous as hell about the fate of Tim.

----------


## godisawesome

Part of the reason I'm moderately more confident in DC's plans for Tim is because I see Tim's stuff as being handled largely by the Batboard this time around; I tend to think those guys actually are better at planning long term and they were generally not associated with the brain trust that sunk Teen Titans twice.

Now, the objection that does get raised in the back of my mind deals with the part Tynion himself played in Tim's New 52 rebuild: he arguably started it with the flashback to Dick, Jason and Tim's childhoods in Zero Year, he reiterated the New 52 origin in Rebirth's first few issues, and he demonstrated a liking for the sometimes over-the-top Magic hacking New 52 Tim had. However, countering all that, he did reintegrate Tim's Bo-staff into continuity, his Zero Year story featured Tim on familiar boarding school grounds, and he seems overall to have a strong grasp of Tim's voice and humility. I guess I figure the worst case scenario is that Tim simply stays on they same course he was put on in Rebirth 'TEC's first few issues, still stuck with a. Screwy origin, but at least acting like Tim.

----------


## Jadeb

Tynion, for me, is part of the problem. People talk about how he's fixing Tim, as though it's an ongoing process, but Tynion already has established his new status quo for Tim: smug super-hacker who can do anything and everything. I don't care for that characterization, and I hope Tim's return is accompanied by some major changes.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Part of the reason I'm moderately more confident in DC's plans for Tim is because I see Tim's stuff as being handled largely by the Batboard this time around; I tend to think those guys actually are better at planning long term and they were generally not associated with the brain trust that sunk Teen Titans twice.
> 
> Now, the objection that does get raised in the back of my mind deals with the part Tynion himself played in Tim's New 52 rebuild: he arguably started it with the flashback to Dick, Jason and Tim's childhoods in Zero Year, he reiterated the New 52 origin in Rebirth's first few issues, and he demonstrated a liking for the sometimes over-the-top Magic hacking New 52 Tim had. However, countering all that, he did reintegrate Tim's Bo-staff into continuity, his Zero Year story featured Tim on familiar boarding school grounds, and he seems overall to have a strong grasp of Tim's voice and humility. I guess I figure the worst case scenario is that Tim simply stays on they same course he was put on in Rebirth 'TEC's first few issues, still stuck with a. Screwy origin, but at least acting like Tim.


Hopefully he's only referencing the New 52 origin to make the transition back to his old one smoother. So readers know what he's changing from, instead of just bringing the original origin out of nowhere.

And he brought back the Redbird last month, something only a diehard Tim fan would ever acknowledge. He seems like a guy who knows what he's doing, then again he's also had a ton of failures (over a pretty short career) so I'm still slightly worried.




> Tynion, for me, is part of the problem. People talk about how he's fixing Tim, as though it's an ongoing process, but Tynion already has established his new status quo for Tim: smug super-hacker who can do anything and everything. I don't care for that characterization, and I hope Tim's return is accompanied by some major changes.


He's really not smug anymore. There was that 1 line about being a 16 year old genius with an unlimited budget but other than that he's been a really nice kid so far. Even when he was captured by Oz he said "My friends will come for me" as opposed to "I will break out myself" or something arrogant, he's starting to care again.

----------


## Jadeb

Tynion seems like a big fan, but sometimes those are the worst custodians for characters. You can be too caught up in adoration and mythology for the character's greater good.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Part of the reason I'm moderately more confident in DC's plans for Tim is because I see Tim's stuff as being handled largely by the Batboard this time around; I tend to think those guys actually are better at planning long term and they were generally not associated with the brain trust that sunk Teen Titans twice.
> 
> Now, the objection that does get raised in the back of my mind deals with the part Tynion himself played in Tim's New 52 rebuild: he arguably started it with the flashback to Dick, Jason and Tim's childhoods in Zero Year, he reiterated the New 52 origin in Rebirth's first few issues, and he demonstrated a liking for the sometimes over-the-top Magic hacking New 52 Tim had. However, countering all that, he did reintegrate Tim's Bo-staff into continuity, his Zero Year story featured Tim on familiar boarding school grounds, and he seems overall to have a strong grasp of Tim's voice and humility. I guess I figure the worst case scenario is that Tim simply stays on they same course he was put on in Rebirth 'TEC's first few issues, still stuck with a. Screwy origin, but at least acting like Tim.


I can't say I'm overall optimistic myself. So what happens when they bring him back? Will they put him in a Young Justice book? It would in all likelihood not be a book under the Batboard, which could bring us another out of character Tim like we got in TT. Given the track record for the character in the past six years I'm not holding my breath. Rebirth was a good start, but we shall see where things go from here.

----------


## Jadeb

> He's really not smug anymore. There was that 1 line about being a 16 year old genius with an unlimited budget but other than that he's been a really nice kid so far. Even when he was captured by Oz he said "My friends will come for me" as opposed to "I will break out myself" or something arrogant, he's starting to care again.


I read through his abduction and found him pretty unbearable throughout. But, in fairness, that's more because of Tynion's insistence on Tim's super-abilities -- from building shapeshifting headquarters to superhacking to getting a genius grant for college to engineering a vast network of underground trains -- than because of the character's insistence on himself. 

My preferred characterization for Tim is as a fundamentally normal, good-hearted kid who is loyal to his friends, kinda dorky and has to try really hard to do the exceptional things he does. But that's far, far from Tynion's take.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tynion, for me, is part of the problem. People talk about how he's fixing Tim, as though it's an ongoing process, but Tynion already has established his new status quo for Tim: smug super-hacker who can do anything and everything. I don't care for that characterization, and I hope Tim's return is accompanied by some major changes.


Tynion's Tim isn't smug from what I have seen. And the only real skill Tim has displayed under his pen is showing a great knowledge for computers and showing the ability to access certain situations. He's an extremely mediocre h2h combatant now. Honestly he's been less impressive then both Dick and Damian, and probably on par with Jason given their respective strengths. I don't feel he's as smart as people are trying to suggest, at least no more than someone like Damian or Babs.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I read through his abduction and found him pretty unbearable throughout. But, in fairness, that's more because of Tynion's insistence on Tim's super-abilities -- from building shapeshifting headquarters to superhacking to getting a genius grant for college to engineering a vast network of underground trains -- than because of the character's insistence on himself. 
> 
> My preferred characterization for Tim is as a fundamentally normal, good-hearted kid who is loyal to his friends, kinda dorky and has to try really hard to do the exceptional things he does. But that's far, far from Tynion's take.


I like Pre-Flashpoint Tim just as much as you do. But the Bat-Family is way bigger and has more intelligent and skilled members than ever before. Bruce wouldn't have much reason to treat Tim with any importance if he was just another average Joe as opposed to an exceptionally smart vigilante. He was never the best fighter in the Family, his strength was always his brain. In order to stay relevant it was kind of necessary to bump up Tim's IQ a little bit. He's 16 now, he started out when he was 14, if you factor in character growth it's not THAT far off from his original intelligence level. He can still act like Tim even if his achievements are a little over the top.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I read through his abduction and found him pretty unbearable throughout. But, in fairness, that's more because of Tynion's insistence on Tim's super-abilities -- from building shapeshifting headquarters to superhacking to getting a genius grant for college to engineering a vast network of underground trains -- than because of the character's insistence on himself. 
> 
> My preferred characterization for Tim is as a fundamentally normal, good-hearted kid who is loyal to his friends, kinda dorky and has to try really hard to do the exceptional things he does. But that's far, far from Tynion's take.


I was under the impression he just worked on the programming of the headquarters, I don't believe he actually built it. Yea, the underground train was a bit much, lol. Though I wouldn't want to nerf him all the way down to what you seem to be suggesting. That would make him practically a rookie again, which he's not. Though I'd like for them to focus more on him as a detective than his tech skills. The dorky side of him would be fully accepted as well.  :Smile:

----------


## Jadeb

I don't want him to be nerfed, either. But he wasn't like this even in the Red Robin series. He was still a regular guy who was trying hard and often out of his depth. It's only since the New 52 that we've had Tim Drake, super hacker and Olympic-level gymnast who can do pretty much anything. The reboot got his character off to a bad start, and Tynion's tendencies follow in that direction. Maybe it's because of Tynion's fannishness or maybe it's because of editorial dictate; I dunno. But I don't like it and hope it changes.

----------


## Jadeb

> I like Pre-Flashpoint Tim just as much as you do. But the Bat-Family is way bigger and has more intelligent and skilled members than ever before. Bruce wouldn't have much reason to treat Tim with any importance if he was just another average Joe as opposed to an exceptionally smart vigilante. He was never the best fighter in the Family, his strength was always his brain. In order to stay relevant it was kind of necessary to bump up Tim's IQ a little bit. He's 16 now, he started out when he was 14, if you factor in character growth it's not THAT far off from his original intelligence level. He can still act like Tim even if his achievements are a little over the top.


Duke's barely competent and still getting plenty of love. :/

I don't want Tim reset to the early days of his solo, but trying to make him "special" at the cost of losing the Everyman at the core of his character is a mistake in the long run, IMO.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't want him to be nerfed, either. But he wasn't like this even in the Red Robin series. He was still a regular guy who was trying hard and often out of his depth. It's only since the New 52 that we've had Tim Drake, super hacker and Olympic-level gymnast who can do pretty much anything. The reboot got his character off to a bad start, and Tynion's tendencies follow in that direction. Maybe it's because of Tynion's fannishness or maybe it's because of editorial dictate; I dunno. But I don't like it and hope it changes.


What do you mean by 'pretty much do anything?' And while the olympic level gymnast title was given to him it has not been shown on display, so I'd say that's a moot point. You seem to be suggesting Tim is better at everything than anyone in the Bat Fam. Better detective than Batman (Nope), better fighter than Cass (He's fodder in comparison to her), better with computers than Barbara (debatable), better on field strategist than Nightwing (no). I just don't agree with the notion he can do anything, that's where my argument falls. He's good, sure. But not that much better than the guys and ladies surrounding him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Duke's barely competent and still getting plenty of love. :/
> 
> I don't want Tim reset to the early days of his solo, but trying to make him "special" at the cost of losing the Everyman at the core of his character is a mistake in the long run, IMO.


It works for Duke because he is a rookie. Tim is far past that stage. Though I do agree with you, I wouldn't mind a representation of Tim closer to the one we got right before the New-52 hit.

----------


## Jadeb

> What do you mean by 'pretty much do anything?' And while the olympic level gymnast title was given to him it has not been shown on display, so I'd say that's a moot point. You seem to be suggesting Tim is better at everything than anyone in the Bat Fam. Better detective than Batman (Nope), better fighter than Cass (He's fodder in comparison to her), better with computers than Barbara (debatable), better on field strategist than Nightwing (no). I just don't agree with the notion he can do anything, that's where my argument falls. He's good, sure. But not that much better than the guys and ladies surrounding him.


Tynion had Tim, at 16, design and build a vast, hidden network of underground trains. LOL.

The stuff Tim does should come organically from his background. Hacking skills I can see. Major civil engineering, of the sort that would require years of study in multiple disciplines, from a high-school kid? Even a bright, talented, hard-working high-school kid? No way. At that point, he can do anything, depending on the story's demands and Tynion's whims.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Duke's barely competent and still getting plenty of love. :/
> 
> I don't want Tim reset to the early days of his solo, but trying to make him "special" at the cost of losing the Everyman at the core of his character is a mistake in the long run, IMO.


Duke isn't going to last. No writer knows what to do with him (including his creator) and even many of the readers willing to defend him admit he's boring so far. He is not the best character to make comparisons with.

Tim is still the closest thing to an everyman in the Family, he's got the least over the top personality out of all the Robins and comes off as pretty humble and down to Earth most of the time. He can still be relatable even if he's building bullet trains under Gotham and showing off hacking skills that would make Oracle jealous.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tynion had Tim, at 16, design and build a vast, hidden network of underground trains. LOL.
> 
> The stuff Tim does should come organically from his background. Hacking skills I can see. Major civil engineering, of the sort that requires years of study, from a high-school kid? Even a bright, talented, hard-working high-school kid? No way. At that point, he can do anything, depending on the story's demands and Tynion's whims.


Which I agree on. The train thing was not something I would associate with Tim's skill set. It was a little over the top. I'd prefer if he was just good with internal computer networking then actual software. Something like that would go better with the likes of Bruce, Harper, or maybe even Luke.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Duke isn't going to last. No writer knows what to do with him (including his creator) and even many of the readers willing to defend him admit he's boring so far. He is not the best character to make comparisons with.
> 
> Tim is still the closest thing to an everyman in the Family, he's got the least over the top personality out of all the Robins and comes off as pretty humble and down to Earth most of the time. He can still be relatable even if he's building bullet trains under Gotham and showing off hacking skills that would make Oracle jealous.


As far as hacking goes Wouldn't Babs, Tim, and Damian be on the same level? All three have feats to back their claim for being the best.

----------


## godisawesome

There is an argument to be made about how much pride Tim should have; as a fan of Nicieza's Robin and Red Robin run, I tend to think he should have decent justified pride offset by occasional sparks of cockiness that get him in trouble, while fans of the original Dixon age probably feel that any flash of arrogance is a bit too much. Tim definetly gained some confidence across his solo; when he started out, he was cautious and serious about even regualr mooks, and by the end he was pretty confidently messing with them for fun and occasionally trolling actual named supervillains.

Tynion's Tim isn't perfect, but he's got just the right mix of confidence and humility for me. Plus, I'm a bit of a Tynion apologist; I actually _liked_ his RHATO run, and I'm perfectly willing to argue a lot of his inferior story decisions are the result of working either in someone else's story, dealing with strict edicts and guides, or overloaded with too much stuff for such a comparatively young writer.

Having said that, if I were DC, I'd still have Fabian Nicieza on call for a potential Red Robin solo...

----------


## Atlanta96

> As far as hacking goes Wouldn't Babs, Tim, and Damian be on the same level? All three have feats to back their claim for being the best.


I think the Most Over The Top Hacker in the DCU award goes to Rebirth Tim. Between the thing with the drones, hacking the Colony, and overall spending more time on his wrist computer than actually fighting.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think the Most Over The Top Hacker in the DCU award goes to Rebirth Tim. Between the thing with the drones, hacking the Colony, and overall spending more time on his wrist computer than actually fighting.


Well, at least in the Bat-Fam. Guys like Cyborg and such would put him to shame. Yea, if we're going strictly by Rebirth Tim might have the edge. Though Damian, Babs, Bruce, and Luke wouldn't be that far behind.

Tim's impressive, but let's not forget he's been hacked a number of times throughout the New-52/Rebirth; Steph, Harper, Damian, and the General just to name a few. A big reason why I wouldn't have him too far ahead of the others.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim's arguably the prefect candidate for this kind of "surgical reboot that's still contiguous to his New 52 adventures" theory I've come up with. Most of the other issues with the Batfamily from the New 52 are either simple to fix, still a bit contentious, or some mixture of the two. Nightwing getting his Titans back was explained via a quick memory erasure retcon and is tied into Wally West, so he's taken care of. Batwoman was waylaid by an ill-timed and I'll-conceived editorial edict, so she only needs a fresh start. Jason was arguably pretty successful but somewhat unpopular outside his fanbase, so he just needed a revarnished books.
> 
> The Batgirls would arguably be better served by some fixing, but the Bat-editorial board had already kind of done that by bringing back Cass and Steph, though you can tell there's still some fear about having the Batgril mantle shared hurting the brand (cowards). And adding Oracle, to Babs history was also a simple retcon.


I think what the writers need to do is find a way to balance the characters in the cross overs better (at the moment they often push some characters at the expense of others), and decide which elements the give to which characters.
Define the relations between the charters more consistently.
And flesh out what of the stuff that happend before flashpoint is canon and what isn't.

----------


## Aahz

> There is an argument to be made about how much pride Tim should have; as a fan of Nicieza's Robin and Red Robin run, I tend to think he should have decent justified pride offset by occasional sparks of cockiness that get him in trouble, while fans of the original Dixon age probably feel that any flash of arrogance is a bit too much. Tim definetly gained some confidence across his solo; when he started out, he was cautious and serious about even regualr mooks, and by the end he was pretty confidently messing with them for fun and occasionally trolling actual named supervillains.


Many people have an very idealised picture of what the "original Dixon age" Tim, he was not cautious and perfect as some people claim.

----------


## The Whovian

> I expect the JSA return will span multiple books and tie in with the whole Mr. Oz mystery. So I'm hoping Tim gets a big role to play in the overall storyline.


That would be cool if Tim was a part of why the JSA return

----------


## The Whovian

> Tynion, for me, is part of the problem. People talk about how he's fixing Tim, as though it's an ongoing process, but Tynion already has established his new status quo for Tim: smug super-hacker who can do anything and everything. I don't care for that characterization, and I hope Tim's return is accompanied by some major changes.


I actually thought Tynion did a remarkable job of writing Tim before he was captured by Oz.

----------


## The Whovian

> Duke's barely competent and still getting plenty of love. :/


I can't stand Duke

----------


## josai21

I started reading Tim in his Teen Titans run during OYL. 

So I didn't start necessarily with the rookie Tim Drake. By OYL he was a pretty experienced and only just begun to recover from the loss of Superboy.

The Red Robin in Detective still feels like a downgrade to me.

At the end of Red Robin, we were starting to see Tim becoming closer to Bruce's equal. He was his own man and his own hero. His storylines with Ras Al Ghul and such were brilliant.

The Tim Drake in Detective was tech intelligent, but not tactically which is the key part of the character.

Of course the problem there is...to write a smart character you have to be a smart writer...

DC struggles in that regard.

----------


## KrustyKid

Warmup032.jpg

This is a nice piece of work

----------


## Frontier

I kinda miss Tim's OYL look. It was a pretty good costume  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> I kinda miss Tim's OYL look. It was a pretty good costume .


Much like most things about OYL I didn't like Tim's new costume. I was very happy when he traded it in for the original Red Robin suit. Love that costume. Actually, since this is my first time posting on this thread, I may as well say that I love EVERYTHING about the Red Robin book.

----------


## KrustyKid

tumblr_mckd7uyusC1qkgi0bo1_500.jpg

Some of the Robin's cosplaying the TMNT. Nice to see Steph as Michelangelo, it actually kinda fits

----------


## Assam

> tumblr_mckd7uyusC1qkgi0bo1_500.jpg
> 
> Some of the Robin's cosplaying the TMNT. Nice to see Steph as Michelangelo, it actually kinda fits


Dick, Jason, Tim, and Steph actually match up with Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo pretty perfect

Also, does this mean Damian is Venus?

----------


## The Whovian

> Warmup032.jpg
> 
> This is a nice piece of work


That's cool. I always liked Freddie's work on Robin.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Dick, Jason, Tim, and Steph actually match up with Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo pretty perfect
> 
> Also, does this mean Damian is Venus?


I guess we'll go with that. Lol

----------


## Atlanta96

> Warmup032.jpg
> 
> This is a nice piece of work


Not a fan of the OYL look but that's a good drawing.

I'll get my dislike of the original Red Robin suit out of the way too, I like to see his hair. A Kid Flash/Wally West Flash style cowl with exposed hair would've worked better, I hope he gets one in the future.

----------


## KrustyKid

I liked the cowl for the fact it didn't make Tim look like just another 'Robin'

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Ariana  :Smile: 

Robin_issue 40a.jpg

Robin_issue 40b.jpg

Robin_issue 40c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin_issue 54a.jpg

Robin_issue 54b.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Aww, poor Tim and Ari. Even though I don't ship them, this was a really nice issue.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Aww, poor Tim and Ari. Even though I don't ship them, this was a really nice issue.


Tim was always so responsible, and still, everyone blamed him for this. Actually, his father never gave him the support what he deserved. Sometimes I think Bruce was a more understanding father to Tim. 

Robin_045a.jpg

Robin_045b.jpg

Robin_045c.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim was always so responsible, and still, everyone blamed him for this. Actually, his father never gave him the support what he deserved. Sometimes I think Bruce was a more understanding father to Tim. 
> 
> Robin_045a.jpg
> 
> Robin_045b.jpg
> 
> Robin_045c.jpg


Oh, harsh. Yeah, I agree - and I think we're supposed to see Tim trying to navigate his way through two very different, and very flawed, father figures in his life.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Oh, harsh. Yeah, I agree - and I think we're supposed to see Tim trying to navigate his way through two very different, and very flawed, father figures in his life.


Well that's for sure, Bruce did some questionable decisions, too. Tim wanted to tell Steph his real identity for so long, but Bruce never allowed him. And then boom, he told everything to Steph and then sent her to Tim's boarding school without Tim's permission. And people call Dick Grayson DickBats.  :Big Grin:  Poor Tim  :Big Grin: 

Robin_087a.jpg

Robin_087b.jpg

Robin_087c.jpg

----------


## Assam

It just occurred to me that the header for this thread is missing one of Tim's identities. 

Where's the love for Mr. Sarcastic???

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It just occurred to me that the header for this thread is missing one of Tim's identities. 
> 
> Where's the love for Mr. Sarcastic???


Haha, you're right! Mr. Sarcastic is the best.  :Big Grin: 

Young Justice 052.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

I laughed so hard on this.  :Big Grin: 

Young Justice 053a.jpg

Young Justice 053b.jpg

Young Justice 053c.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Haha, you're right! Mr. Sarcastic is the best. 
> 
> Young Justice 052.jpg


I'm genuinely curious if anyone has ever been mad enough to cosplay as him. It'd be amazing.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm genuinely curious if anyone has ever been mad enough to cosplay as him. It'd be amazing.


Yes, it certainly would.  :Big Grin:  Now, I want to see it so bad.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dominick1216

Is Tim supposed to be 18 by the time of Rebirth? He got accepted into Ivy University, he has to be 18 right?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Is Tim supposed to be 18 by the time of Rebirth? He got accepted into Ivy University, he has to be 18 right?


He was still sixteen, according to what was said in issue.

----------


## Atlanta96

> He was still sixteen, according to what was said in issue.


Yeah, a kid smart enough to build high tech buildings and trains has no reason to stick around high school, I'm surprised he wasn't in college at age 10 at this rate.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Is Tim supposed to be 18 by the time of Rebirth? He got accepted into Ivy University, he has to be 18 right?


He's 16. He's a genius according to the New52, so he graduated years ago. He was just to busy with the Teen Titans, and blah blah. I hope everything will return from Tim's real past, and we can forget the whole New52/Rebirth trash. Rebirth Tim is still not the real Tim, not even close.

----------


## Dominick1216

> He was still sixteen, according to what was said in issue.


Do you remember which issue that was stated in?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Do you remember which issue that was stated in?


Detective Comics #937

page_8.jpg

----------


## Dominick1216

> Detective Comics #937
> 
> page_8.jpg


Oh okay. So.... has he been 16 since the beginning of New 52 then? Didn't three years pass in between then and now?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Oh okay. So.... has he been 16 since the beginning of New 52 then? Didn't three years pass in between then and now?


It helps if you don't think too hard about the timeline. It will never make sense.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Oh okay. So.... has he been 16 since the beginning of New 52 then? Didn't three years pass in between then and now?


Yes, he was 16 at the beginning, too. Unlike Tim, Damian has aged 3 years, because of comic book logic.....

----------


## Dataweaver

> He's 16. He's a genius according to the New52, so he graduated years ago. He was just to busy with the Teen Titans, and blah blah. I hope everything will return from Tim's real past, and we can forget the whole New52/Rebirth trash. Rebirth Tim is still not the real Tim, not even close.


To be fair, neither was the Red Robin we had just prior to Flashpoint. Arguably, the last time we had the “real” Tim was back in the early 2000s, during Jon Lewis' run and just prior to Bill Willingham coming in (under Didio's direction) and screwing everything up. 

Compared to the Tim of War Games, Identity Crisis, and the Veteran fiasco, Rebirth Tim really isn't that bad.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> To be fair, neither was the Red Robin we had just prior to Flashpoint. Arguably, the last time we had the “real” Tim was back in the early 2000s, during Jon Lewis' run and just prior to Bill Willingham coming in (under Didio's direction) and screwing everything up. 
> 
> Compared to the Tim of War Games, Identity Crisis, and the Veteran fiasco, Rebirth Tim really isn't that bad.


No, Tim before Flashpoint was the real Tim, because he was the same person, with the same history. It's called character development. After 20 years, of course he changed, he became more interesting and fascinating. According to your logic, Dick Grayson wasn't the real deal before the reboot, because he wasn't exactly the same person who he was in the 90s. Tim as Red Robin was amazing, but then they butchered him completely. Rebirth Tim is a totally different person, because he doesn't remember his real life. His origin, history, personality, experiences and achievements are completely different, so no, Rebirth Tim isn't the real Tim. This sums up perfectly who he was before the reboot:

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> To be fair, neither was the Red Robin we had just prior to Flashpoint. Arguably, the last time we had the real Tim was back in the early 2000s, during Jon Lewis' run and just prior to Bill Willingham coming in (under Didio's direction) and screwing everything up. 
> 
> Compared to the Tim of War Games, Identity Crisis, and the Veteran fiasco, Rebirth Tim really isn't that bad.


The problem with Tim in those stories wasnt really his characterization, but what was being done to him. It was the "real" Tim being mishandled by writers obsessed with miserable stories and shock deaths. And I have some issues with Pre-52 Red Robin but at least it felt like a natural evolution of the character and not a complete revamp like the New 52 abomination.

I like Rebirth Tim so far even if he's a bit too smart and his backstory still needs fixing.

----------


## twincast

> Redbird for the win!


QFT

...And now I really need to see Tim skateboarding again.




> Haha, you're right! Mr. Sarcastic is the best. 
> 
> Attachment 46128


Y'know what I've always wondered? How did he make his hair have different lengths in different guises? Doesn't look to me as if he's hiding his fairly substantial locks under fake skin, and unlike with Bart impulsively shaving his head and then having a wig forced onto him, I don't remember this ever getting explained. Although I may just be getting senile, I guess.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> QFT
> 
> ...And now I really need to see Tim skateboarding again.
> 
> 
> Y'know what I've always wondered? How did he make his hair have different lengths in different guises? Doesn't look to me as if he's hiding his fairly substantial locks under fake skin, and unlike with Bart impulsively shaving his head and then having a wig forced onto him, I don't remember this ever getting explained. Although I may just be getting senile, I guess.


Batman and Alfred taught Tim how to disguise himself every time he is creating a character and posing as him. This particular look wasn't explained, but there were other occasions, where he wore a wig, a hair gale, or he dyed his hair.

----------


## godisawesome

I walkways liked the idea that Tim based Mr. Sarcastic off of Kon. Or at least Kon's more douchey moments.

Oh, and as to Tim's age and the legitimacy of the darkening/matured/ruined/insert-your-opinion-here evolution he went through, I think it makes him the perfect example of the the risk and rewards of DC's Post-Crisis dedication to allowing consequences to radically change the status quo. Tim losing his father and becoming an emancipated minor mirrors Superman marrying Lois Lane after revealing his identity to her and Wally West becoming a father After being married to Linda for over a decade. Writers at DC and other companies during the 90's really embraced the evolving status quo thing.

Now, sometimes that's going to misfire. The New 52's own continuity after the reboot kind of demonstrates that. And cleaning up bad decisions in the older continuity was rarely a clean process; Chuck Dixon lucked out in that Stephanie Brown's survival of War Games was plausible, but Geoff Johns had to invent a giant space cockroach to take the blame for Hal Jordan as Parallax. Tim had plenty of bad stories, and it's easy to argue stuff like War Games and Adam Beechen's runs should be rejected... But at the same time, the evolving continuity and consequences lead to Tim's (generally) well-recieved turn as Red Robin in Batman RIP, and StephBats.

To me, the Pre-Flashpoint Tim was a very _strong_ character because you could see how the character grew and how creators would take great big steaming piles of $#!+ and somehow unearth a goldmine underneath it once it was scraped up. When Tim became my favorite character instead of just a favored character (during Niceza's Robin run, which coincided with my Jason Tod interest and my lack of fire for Superboy's death), I had to track down dozens of issues and TPBs because it was showing his growth. Even less-then-stellar runs, like the Bludhaven arc fit into that stretch of time pretty well. The New 52 had some potential to do so as well, but I think the entire affair suffered a bit from twin guides to do new stuff and yet preserve a sometimes tired and worn-down status quo; thus, Tim was supposed to be the leader of the only Titans team and was hammered into a Nightwing shape that didn't suit him.

And even now, I'd really rather they just stick all his old adventures back into continuity and just hand wave explanations for how the heck they work; yeah, DC's addiction to Babsgirl likely means that Steph shouldn't be present, but I still like the idea of Tim being buried alive in a truck with Cluemaster, and I'd rather trust any new writers to reinterpret such an event rather than just make a pale imitation of it or ignore it completely.

----------


## Dataweaver

> The problem with Tim in those stories wasnt really his characterization, but what was being done to him. It was the "real" Tim being mishandled by writers obsessed with miserable stories and shock deaths. And I have some issues with Pre-52 Red Robin but at least it felt like a natural evolution of the character and not a complete revamp like the New 52 abomination.
> 
> I like Rebirth Tim so far even if he's a bit too smart and his backstory still needs fixing.


Actually, my biggest problem with Willingham's Robin was that it _didn't_ feel like a natural progression of the character. Willingham's Robin was brash and arrogant where Dixon's and Lewis's Robin had been humble, with no explanation for the shift. That's what I'm referring to when I say he wasn't the same character: not merely that he changed, but that the change made no sense. I got the sense that Willingham didn't really get Tim, and didn't want to; he was more interested in Tim's new “nemesis”, Johnny Warlock. The New 52 Tim was Willingham's Robin on steroids. And while Rebirth Tim isn't a full restoration of the original Tim, it's a big step in the right direction.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Actually, my biggest problem with Willingham's Robin was that it _didn't_ feel like a natural progression of the character. Willingham's Robin was brash and arrogant where Dixon's and Lewis's Robin had been humble, with no explanation for the shift. That's what I'm referring to when I say he wasn't the same character: not merely that he changed, but that the change made no sense. I got the sense that Willingham didn't really get Tim, and didn't want to; he was more interested in Tim's new “nemesis”, Johnny Warlock. The New 52 Tim was Willingham's Robin on steroids. And while Rebirth Tim isn't a full restoration of the original Tim, it's a big step in the right direction.


I wasn't thinking more of stories like Identity Crisis and War Games when I said his characterization was fine even though the stories were crap. I haven't touched Willinghams run. We can agree that Rebirth Tim was a step in the right direction though, I'm grateful for those issues of 'Tec and I hope they're just the very beginning of his character being fixed. If only they'd take him out of f$@!ing limbo already.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim was a pretty nurse  :Big Grin:  I don't know which one is funnier, this or Mr. Sarcastic.  :Big Grin: 

Batman_626a.jpg

Batman_626b.jpg

Batman_626c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batman_626d.jpg

Batman_626e.jpg

Batman_626f.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batman_626g.jpg

Batman_627.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

hehe  :Big Grin:  

nurse_tim_by_charminganime234-d4fgu3j.jpg

----------


## Assam

> I wasn't thinking more of stories like Identity Crisis and War Games when I said his characterization was fine even though the stories were crap. I haven't touched Willinghams run. We can agree that Rebirth Tim was a step in the right direction though, I'm grateful for those issues of 'Tec and I hope they're just the very beginning of his character being fixed. If only they'd take him out of f$@!ing limbo already.


As far as I'm concerned, not counting the Red Robin solo book, which rocks!, Tim hasn't been Tim since before Infinite Crisis. 'Tec has definitely been a step in the right direction, but even there, something hasn't felt right about his characterization.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim was a pretty nurse  I don't know which one is funnier, this or Mr. Sarcastic. 
> 
> Batman_626a.jpg
> 
> Batman_626b.jpg
> 
> Batman_626c.jpg


Yeah...that's one part of Tim's Pre-Flashpoint history I don't mind keeping non-canon. No one in the Bat-books besides maybe the Joker needs to be crossdressong on-panel.

----------


## Atlanta96

> As far as I'm concerned, not counting the Red Robin solo book, which rocks!, Tim hasn't been Tim since before Infinite Crisis. 'Tec has definitely been a step in the right direction, but even there, something hasn't felt right about his characterization.


Of course 'Tec doesn't feel right, they're transitioning him away from his New 52 characterization. They had the choice to just spontaneously have him back to normal from the first issue, or make the change more gradual. We're getting the latter and I'm fine with it. I'm way more annoyed with the continuing lack of Tim in the books. It looks like The Button may not be his return after all which is infuriating. Based on Tom King's recent tweets it looks like his soonest possible return is Batman issue 25, which is a ways off. Ugh,

----------


## CPSparkles

> As far as I'm concerned, not counting the Red Robin solo book, which rocks!, Tim hasn't been Tim since before Infinite Crisis. 'Tec has definitely been a step in the right direction, but even there, something hasn't felt right about his characterization.


I think the problem for me anyway is that he's still missing his history and backstory. Sure Rebirth is close to the real deal but because all that good characterisation was done too quick and on the foundation of fake Tim it still rings false.
When he returns they need to retcon his origin and give him back his stories and experiences because that is what makes a character their journey. They also need to take their time make it a slow burn not the forced rush job that was done his departure. It has to feel organic else it will never feel real.

They can't just have him remember stuff they need to rewrite that drastic new origin which turned him into a completely different guy from the Tim we all know and love. I don't why such a harsh retcon was ever okayed in the first place.

----------


## josai21

I humbly disagree with those saying "Tim wasn't Tim" after Infinite Crisis.

The core of the character is still there..it's just been through tragedy. 

Tim Drake aged and matured and yes...became more like Bruce. 

He is a different person than when he first put on the mask, but the growth was real. It didn't just happen out of nowhere. It occurred over numerous issues and series. 

The reason I hate the N52 is it destroyed so much growth, not just for Tim, but for characters across the world.

They should have started a separate line of the N52...similar to Ultimate Marvel.

----------


## Jadeb

The growth was definitely better than what the New 52 gave us, but I still think that inflicting all that suffering on Tim was a mistake. We don't need two Bruces. 

I liked where they were going near the end of the Red Robin series -- putting Tim back in a better place. But, boy, there was a lot of baggage that, in the long run, would not have been good for the character.

----------


## josai21

> The growth was definitely better than what the New 52 gave us, but I still think that inflicting all that suffering on Tim was a mistake. We don't need two Bruces. 
> 
> I liked where they were going near the end of the Red Robin series -- putting Tim back in a better place. But, boy, there was a lot of baggage that, in the long run, would not have been good for the character.


Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't most of Tim's suffering due to decisions made by people not directly in charge of Tims character.

His writers just did the. Eat they could

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't most of Tim's suffering due to decisions made by people not directly in charge of Tims character.
> 
> His writers just did the. Eat they could


Pretty much yes, and at least Yost/Nicieza were able to "repair" the character in a way that felt logical.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't most of Tim's suffering due to decisions made by people not directly in charge of Tims character.
> 
> His writers just did the. Eat they could


My issue isn't so much about his suffering as it was about him being out of character. And especially in Willingham's run, he was out of character well before Willingham started throwing things at him. His new-found arrogance wasn't a response to Johnny Warlock or War Games; it was there from the start of Willingham's run. 

And while I'll grant that Didio is largely responsible for the suffering that Tim was out through, I don't buy the idea that Willingham was just doing the best he could with a bad situation. Rather, he struck me as a willing accomplice. After he left, subsequent writers were doing their best with a bad situation, as you say; but he wasn't.

----------


## KrustyKid

How Tim be peeking in to check the comments on this thread,

889ba0b2a48e928608b2303b8c00c949.jpg

----------


## Jadeb

That costume was so bad. Even without the wings it's bad.

Poor Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That costume was so bad. Even without the wings it's bad.
> 
> Poor Tim.


Far too noisy for my taste. I prefer a more simple looking suit.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Next Tuesday will be 6 months since Tim "died". It's getting really annoying.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Next Tuesday will be 6 months since Tim "died". It's getting really annoying.


The only way this will all be worth it is if we get to see a battle of the mind between Tim and Adrian. Seeing those two try to out-think each other, if written properly, would be incredible.

----------


## Assam

someone-got-out.jpg

So...is Tim okay? I know it could have just been an odd way of drawing him, but it kinda seems like Tim is starting to lose it in his prison cell.

----------


## Caivu

> someone-got-out.jpg
> 
> So...is Tim okay? I know it could have just been an odd way of drawing him, but it kinda seems like Tim is starting to lose it in his prison cell.


I wouldn't be surprised at all. Locked up for months in another world with no way to contact anyone you know and also learning that despite your best efforts, escaping is impossible? That'd do a number on anyone.

----------


## millernumber1

> someone-got-out.jpg
> 
> So...is Tim okay? I know it could have just been an odd way of drawing him, but it kinda seems like Tim is starting to lose it in his prison cell.


Where is that image from?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Where is that image from?


Superman #18. First issue of the Superman Reborn storyline.

----------


## Atlanta96

> someone-got-out.jpg
> 
> So...is Tim okay? I know it could have just been an odd way of drawing him, but it kinda seems like Tim is starting to lose it in his prison cell.


I think it's the artist having occasional trouble with faces. A few pages after that we see Jon...
IMG_9081.jpg
...who looks like the scariest anime child ever.

----------


## Assam

> I think it's the artist having occasional trouble with faces. A few pages after that we see Jon...
> Attachment 46468
> ...who looks like the scariest anime child ever.


OMG, it's JON THE CHIPMUNK! 

Still, yeah, it's probably just the art. But, imagine how much of a troll would it be if DC went...

DC: "So, we understand you all hate how Tim acted during the New52."
Fans: "Yeah!"
DC: "Well we have good news and bad news. The good news is that Tim is going to be acting like his old self for an arc of Detective Comics. The bad news is that after that, he's gonna disappear for over 6 months to tie into an event."
Fans: "Well, I mean so long as he does something cool in it."
DC: "Oh, and when Tim comes back, he's going to be CRAAAAAAAAZY! Jason has mellowed out, and there always has to be one!" 
The DC fans remain silent as they pull out their crowbars.

----------


## millernumber1

> Superman #18. First issue of the Superman Reborn storyline.


Ah, thanks!  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Young Justice meet DCnU Titans  :Big Grin: 

young_justice_meet_dcnu_titans_by_n8twing-d46d8o5.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is from CBR's "The Line it is Drawn"  :Big Grin: 

Gotham Shore: Dick "The Situation" Grayson, Juicin' Todd, Timmy Drake, Waynie D., Barbi, Cassangela, Stephie Sweetheart, Hel-Wow and Snooki-Mite.

Gotham shore (jersey shore) line5-2-1.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Young Justice meet DCnU Titans 
> 
> young_justice_meet_dcnu_titans_by_n8twing-d46d8o5.jpg


I know that's just a parody drawing, but an actual meeting between the real YJ4 and the New 52 YJ4 would involve much more disgust. Like, homicidal rage levels of disgust. From both groups.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I know that's just a parody drawing, but an actual meeting between the real YJ4 and the New 52 YJ4 would involve much more disgust. Like, homicidal rage levels of disgust. From both groups.


Well, I'm just laughing about how New52 Tim is molting on the floor.  :Big Grin:  The second New52 Teen Titans series wasn't that terrible, Tim became tolerable at the very end. The first series on the other hand............ I know Tim was under Trigon's influence in this picture, but the funny thing is, he acted like his normal New52-self. New52 Tim was a massive jerk, so Trigon couldn't change a thing on him.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

Teen Titans_020_0.jpg

----------


## Assam

> I know that's just a parody drawing, but an actual meeting between the real YJ4 and the New 52 YJ4 would involve much more disgust. Like, homicidal rage levels of disgust. From both groups.


I think the YJ4 would just assume based on the way they acted that the New52 versions of them were super villains impersonating them, and would proceed to kick their asses.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think the YJ4 would just assume based on the way they acted that the New52 versions of them were super villains impersonating them, and would proceed to kick their asses.


Pretty much, and there's a chance that some of them ARE villains impersonating them, for real, so it's not a bad response at all!

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Teekl, the demon cat. Klarion, the witch boy's cat is so fluffy.  :Big Grin:  By the way, Teekl and Dex-Starr should hang out together, it would be awesome.  :Big Grin: 

Robin issue 157_1.jpg

Robin issue 157_2.jpg

Robin issue 157_3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 157_4.jpg

Robin issue 157_5.jpg

Robin issue 157_6.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 157_7.jpg

Robin issue 157_8.jpg

Robin issue 157_9.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 157_10.jpg

Robin issue 157_11.jpg

Robin issue 157_12.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

zc_au__red_robin_by_gatodae-db2bxbg.jpg

I felt the need to post this, lol

----------


## Frontier

> zc_au__red_robin_by_gatodae-db2bxbg.jpg
> 
> I felt the need to post this, lol


The New 52 suit actually looks better on him  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Atlanta96

> zc_au__red_robin_by_gatodae-db2bxbg.jpg
> 
> I felt the need to post this, lol


I'd rather read about a squirrel Tim Drake than actual New 52 Tim Drake.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The New 52 suit actually looks better on him .


So sadly true, lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink: 

1_7ab4536c226d5422cdbf9ab115a9dae0-d21t1c6.jpg

2_7abf60d009bde685d244644e8eceb982-d229hvk.jpg

3_7abgd69558da206793dc1515e5a3a331-d25kdy9.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> 1_7ab4536c226d5422cdbf9ab115a9dae0-d21t1c6.jpg
> 
> 2_7abf60d009bde685d244644e8eceb982-d229hvk.jpg
> 
> 3_7abgd69558da206793dc1515e5a3a331-d25kdy9.jpg


What am I looking at exactly? Lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

> What am I looking at exactly? Lol


I don't know, but it's definitely funny  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  I can't wait the new Young Justice episodes  :Big Grin: 

yj_12_by_jojody-d5tcez5_run alfa.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> I can't wait the new Young Justice episodes 
> 
> yj_12_by_jojody-d5tcez5_run alfa.jpg


Here's hoping they treat him better than last season. Is it just me or does everything have way too many bloody characters nowadays?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Here's hoping they treat him better than last season. Is it just me or does everything have way too many bloody characters nowadays?


It's not just you, there were too many new characters in Season 2. I fear they will add more in Season 3.  :Frown:  The new season should be about Tim, Kon, Bart and Cassie, the real YJ4, but I know this won't be the case. Tim hardly appeared in the last season and there is no indication that he will be a major player in the new.

----------


## Assam

> It's not just you, there were too many new characters in Season 2. I fear they will add more in Season 3.  The new season should be about Tim, Kon, Bart and Cassie, the real YJ4, but I know this won't be the case. Tim hardly appeared in the last season and there is no indication that he will be a major player in the new.


On the one hand, a romance was set up between Tim and Cassie at the end of season 2, likely meaning they'll be getting screen time. 
On the other hand, they set up a *romance* between *Tim* and *Cassie* and that makes me want to claw my eyes out! 

Season 2 made the roster big enough. If they want to add more people, they should have some leave at the beginning of season 3. 

With one exception. 

Darkseid is gonna be  the big bad of season 3. And who was the character that he interacted with in the YJ comics? Secret. 

She was already introduced in season 1, and her storyline was the biggest ongoing plot in the comics. 

I personally do hope Mal, Karen, and La'gann leave, so there's space for the final real YJ members who need to appear, Slobo, Empress, and The Ray. (Cissie was replaced by Artermis so she's not showing up)

----------


## Atlanta96

I think YJ is better off introducing as few new heroes as possible, the only ones I think should appear are the Teen Titans from the cartoon for the sake of satisfying fans. Other than that it would be great for the YJ4 to get some focus as a unit, but the original team from season 1 will probably get the majority of the focus this season. Which, considering theyre the ones the show started with, is understandable.

----------


## Assam

> I think YJ is better off introducing as few new heroes as possible, the only ones I think should appear are the Teen Titans from the cartoon for the sake of satisfying fans. Other than that it would be great for the YJ4 to get some focus as a unit, but the original team from season 1 will probably get the majority of the focus this season. Which, considering theyre the ones the show started with, is understandable.


If Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven show up, and not the people who were actually IN Young Justice, I think I'm gonna lose it. 

As for the original team? While you're right about 5 of them, and I know saying this to the average YJ fan is suicide...I think Wally should stay dead. His return would take up too much time in the series, and take away focus from Bart as the new KF. Who knows? Maybe this will be the first time Bart as KF is a good thing!

----------


## Atlanta96

> If Cyborg, Starfire, and Raven show up, and not the people who were actually IN Young Justice, I think I'm gonna lose it. 
> 
> As for the original team? While you're right about 5 of them, and I know saying this to the average YJ fan is suicide...I think Wally should stay dead. His return would take up too much time in the series, and take away focus from Bart as the new KF. Who knows? Maybe this will be the first time Bart as KF is a good thing!


Wally's return should take up time in the series. Out of the original team, he's appeared in the least episodes and got the weakest treatment in season 2. He's earned that time. And I love Bart but Wally is more important than Bart by a long shot, he is more deserving of that focus. Bart spent season 2 humiliating and one-upping Wally, no way he gets to dance all over his grave in season 3.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Pre-Flashpoint Tim and his dad  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Pre-Flashpoint Tim and his dad


The feels....

F**K Identity Crisis. IMO, it marked the end of DC's greatest era.

----------


## KrustyKid

Loved his relationship with his dad. With Rebirth now, I'd love to see something explored with Tim and his mother.

----------


## KrustyKid

Check out Tim's new look post Rebirth,

red_robin_by_crystal_89-d4gc5se.jpg

HYPE!

----------


## shadowsgirl

haha  :Big Grin: 

page_10.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> haha 
> 
> page_10.jpg


See? Even Tim would prefer having his hair exposed. No matter what he ends up as, he should keep it like that. Also, dat ass. When people say he's too similar to Dick I know what they're talking about  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> See? Even Tim would prefer having his hair exposed. No matter what he ends up as, he should keep it like that. Also, dat ass. When people say he's too similar to Dick I know what they're talking about


I don't care what Tim says, I still prefer the cowl. It's badass, so he'd better get used to it.  :Wink:  Heh, well Dick is a sexual object, but Tim usually conquers with his mind. His hotness is just a bonus.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Poor doggies. :Cool:  That reminds me, Tim never had a pet. It's weird, not even a goldfish. 

red_robin.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

I take it back, he had some goldfish, in Red Robin #25.  :Big Grin: 

page_19.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yeah, sure, Tim is a typical fratboy...... I don't get it how could Cole think that about Tim  :Big Grin:  

robin isse 100.jpg

We're talking about Tim here..... Mr. responsibility in action  :Big Grin:  Tim is a serious party popper.  :Big Grin: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

"Being a little geek in summertime"  :Big Grin:  He was such a nerd  :Big Grin: 

page_23.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> "Being a little geek in summertime"  He was such a nerd 
> 
> page_23.jpg


He certainly was

----------


## Atlanta96

> "Being a little geek in summertime"  He was such a nerd 
> 
> page_23.jpg


I miss adorkable Tim. Dick and Jason always had more of a rebellious streak, Tim really succeeded at reflecting the average reader without being a blank slate Bella Swan type.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I miss adorkable Tim. Dick and Jason always had more of a rebellious streak, Tim really succeeded at reflecting the average reader without being a blank slate Bella Swan type.


He was truly adorable, a sweet dork  :Big Grin:  That outfit..... he looked like Harry Potter even before the movies came out.  :Big Grin:  Brentwood was a strange era in his life. XDXD

page_5.jpg

----------


## FishyZombie

> What am I looking at exactly? Lol


Seriously? Nobody made the obvious "Superman is blowing Robin" joke yet? Cuz Krusty was just begging for that.

----------


## FishyZombie

Oh come on! We were all thinking it!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh come on! We were all thinking it!


Lol, the rabbit is now out of the bag

----------


## FishyZombie

The setup was just hanging there  :Stick Out Tongue:  
Someone had to step up and be the lesser man

----------


## KrustyKid

> The setup was just hanging there  
> Someone had to step up and be the lesser man


You're the hero we deserve

----------


## KrustyKid

The team up you've all been waiting for,

coast_to_coast_by_hiii_i-db3z5c6.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin: 

Red Robin 009.jpg

10char

----------


## Atlanta96

Does anyone know the artist for this image? I can't find it anywhere.

IMG_9418.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Does anyone know the artist for this image? I can't find it anywhere.
> 
> IMG_9418.jpg


Joe DeVito

----------


## shadowsgirl

Heh, Dick and Tim are hilarious together.  :Big Grin: 

Nightwing issue 143a.jpg

Nightwing issue 143b.jpg

Nightwing issue 143c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Nightwing issue 143d.jpg

10char

----------


## Atlanta96

> Joe DeVito


Thanks! I'm going to make it my avatar when Tim comes back, it's such a good painting.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks! I'm going to make it my avatar when Tim comes back, it's such a good painting.


You're welcome!  :Big Grin:  Yeah, it's a really good pic  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

Select your character,

tumblr_ojs8mftrA41vfpatpo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> Select your character,
> 
> tumblr_ojs8mftrA41vfpatpo1_1280.jpg


Props to Tim, he's only had 1 bad look in his entire existence. 2 if you count that awful haircut from the Arkham Games. 3 if you count Mr Sarcastic  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Select your character,
> 
> tumblr_ojs8mftrA41vfpatpo1_1280.jpg


Top 3 Tim Costumes:

3. Original Red Robin Suit
2. Original Robin Suit
1. MR. SARCASTIC! THIS SHOULD BE HIS IDENTITY WHEN HE GETS FREE!

----------


## Aahz

> Top 3 Tim Costumes:
> 
> 3. Original Red Robin Suit
> 2. Original Robin Suit
> 1. MR. SARCASTIC! THIS SHOULD BE HIS IDENTITY WHEN HE GETS FREE!


I kind of like the Young Justice suit, but it doesn't really look like a good design for Tim imo, it looks quite agressive which would imo fit better for Jason or Damian.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Select your character,
> 
> tumblr_ojs8mftrA41vfpatpo1_1280.jpg


I liked the first suit the most.

----------


## KrustyKid

Yep, that still ranks up there for me.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim can't choose  :Big Grin: 

tumblr_inline_odoisxJHHZ1u6f8wk_500.jpg

tumblr_inline_odoitbvtJQ1u6f8wk_500.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batmetal returns :Big Grin:  Tim's guitar solo was excellent in that video :Big Grin: 

Batmetal returns 1.jpg

Batmetal returns 2.jpg

Batmetal returns 3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Jadeb

> Props to Tim, he's only had 1 bad look in his entire existence.


But, boy, is it bad.

The original is still my favorite, but the YJ one is cool too. The current one would be better without the stupid "RR" -- like his codename is "Railroad" -- and with less clutter.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Select your character,
> 
> Attachment 47282


The Ünternet suit isn't here. Nasty little oversight

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Conner  :Smile:  I miss their friendship.  :Frown: 

Superboy_issue 6_a.jpg

Superboy_issue 6_b.jpg

Superboy_issue 6_c.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> The Ünternet suit isn't here. Nasty little oversight


You can unlock it by playing through story mode using Tim's pre-52 Red Robin suit :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Tim and Conner  I miss their friendship. 
> 
> Superboy_issue 6_a.jpg
> 
> Superboy_issue 6_b.jpg
> 
> Superboy_issue 6_c.jpg


Yes. "Friendship". That is exactly what it was XD

I kid of course. While Kon and Cassie are great together, multiple writers DID go out of their way to include Tim/Kon subtext. I think it's just something they found funny.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yes. "Friendship". That is exactly what it was XD
> 
> I kid of course. While Kon and Cassie are great together, multiple writers DID go out of their way to include Tim/Kon subtext. I think it's just something they found funny.


It was funny. That relationship was one of the best parts of Post-Crisis DC and I miss it very much. Too bad the Super Sons make it redundant now.

----------


## Assam

> It was funny. That relationship was one of the best parts of Post-Crisis DC and I miss it very much. Too bad the Super Sons make it redundant now.


Tim's generation will return...eventually...hopefully with their original personalities in tow. 

I don't think it'd be redundant. Personality wise, Kon and Jon, and Tim and Damian are NOTHING alike.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim's generation will return...eventually...hopefully with their original personalities in tow. 
> 
> I don't think it'd be redundant. Personality wise, Kon and Jon, and Tim and Damian are NOTHING alike.


It's the fact that they're both a Robin and a Superboy who are best friends that worries me. It's a very similar premise, the Super Sons might have prevented that relationship from being restored.

----------


## Assam

> It's the fact that they're both a Robin and a Superboy who are best friends that worries me. It's a very similar premise, the Super Sons might have prevented that relationship from being restored.


I don't think so, cause it's still very different. For now at least, Damian and Jon are more like frienemies, where as, although they sometimes fought, Tim and Kon have mostly been very close best friends.

----------


## KrustyKid

I see where Atlanta96 is coming from. There's also Batman and Superman with the bromance. Maybe Tim should befriend Supergirl or Powergirl for the change up. It could make for a nice different angel(non romance).

----------


## Atlanta96

> I see where Atlanta96 is coming from. There's also Batman and Superman with the bromance. Maybe Tim should befriend Supergirl or Powergirl for the change up. It could make for a nice different angel(non romance).


No if he's going to befriend anyone from the Super Family it has to be Kon, anything else would be inferior. The only problem is DC and their possible refusal to make it happen.

----------


## shadowsgirl

No, Tim and Kon belong together. Their friendship is pure awesomeness. 

page_4.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

By the way, Tim and Kara were good friends. 

Superman.Batman.(2009).062.Side.Kicked 1.jpg

Superman.Batman.(2009).062.Side.Kicked 2.jpg

----------


## Assam

> no, tim and kon belong together. Their friendship is pure awesomeness. 
> 
> Attachment 47363


they're so f**king gay here, and i love it xdd

----------


## shadowsgirl

> they're so f**king gay here, and i love it xdd


They are best friends, that's it. I don't ship them, they are practically like brothers. Besides, Tim had a lot of girlfriends, so hell no.

----------


## Assam

> They are best friends, that's it. I don't ship them, they are practically like brothers. Besides, Tim had a lot of girlfriends, so hell no.


I don't ship them either. I ship KonXCassie and TimXAriana. They ARE just best friends...doesn't change the fact that plenty of writers find it fun to write  them as if they're a couple.

----------


## Atlanta96

> They are best friends, that's it. I don't ship them, they are practically like brothers. Besides, Tim had a lot of girlfriends, so hell no.


It's cute because they're obviously not meant to be gay but the dialogue is indicative of a relationship anyway. It worked, I really liked that dynamic.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I just hope they won't become a couple in the future. In today's society, you never know.  :Big Grin:  I like some cute gay couples, but Tim and Kon are always just BFF in my eyes. It's just seems wrong to me, but I know a lot of fans (and writers?) ship them really hard. I never understood why the need to ship 2 straight men together.  :Big Grin:  But the internet is full of these strange, imagined couples. I always laugh when people ship Dean and Sam Winchester. I mean, seriously? There was an episode in Supernatural, when Sam and Dean broke the fourth wall and read some comments on the internet, heh, Dean totally freaked out.  :Big Grin:  
I like this picture, because Tim and Kon's face impression tell everything. Their past selves can't believe what they see. 

tumblr_lntg2eV5Z51qjbdiso.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Here is the scene, when Dean learns about the Slash Fans.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Here is the scene, when Dean learns about the Slash Fans.


LMAO! That's my first time seeing that scene.

----------


## KrustyKid

> By the way, Tim and Kara were good friends. 
> 
> Attachment 47364
> 
> Attachment 47365


I remember that, it was from this issue,

supbat 62.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> LMAO! That's my first time seeing that scene.


This is even better.  :Big Grin:  Dean lost it at the end.  :Big Grin:  First Sam, now Castiel...........  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I remember that, it was from this issue,
> 
> supbat 62.jpg


My other favourite with them  :Big Grin: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

----------


## Casantrizos

> My other favourite with them 
> 
> 1.jpg
> 
> 2.jpg



Ya the rumor of Tim leading his own Outsiders could be pretty cool, especially if they merged it with the YJ 4 . Call it what you will but if the team was gonna be people released from Oz's prison they could definitely write in Bart, and if they absolutely refuse to give us back Kon than I honestly wouldn't mind Kara taking his place as resident super. And there's room for more than the four as well. 

Also in the Titans thread they were talking about putting Power girl on that team since she's supposedly going to be living NYC Manhattan anyways, and it'd be cool for them to have a resident super. 

Imagine the crossovers.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ya the rumor of Tim leading his own Outsiders could be pretty cool, especially if they merged it with the YJ 4 . Call it what you will but if the team was gonna be people released from Oz's prison they could definitely write in Bart, and if they absolutely refuse to give us back Kon than I honestly wouldn't mind Kara taking his place as resident super. And there's room for more than the four as well. 
> 
> Also in the Titans thread they were talking about putting Power girl on that team since she's supposedly going to be living NYC Manhattan anyways, and it'd be cool for them to have a resident super. 
> 
> Imagine the crossovers.


But how old is Power Girl? The YJ4 are still teenagers, so I don't know. It would be weird if Tim gave orders to adults. On the other hand, Supergirl is a teen, too. Anyway, I love Kara, but I want Conner.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Casantrizos

Supergirl with YJ4 is what I meant. 
Power Girl with Dicks Titans lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Supergirl with YJ4 is what I meant. 
> Power Girl with Dicks Titans lol


Oh, okay, that's better.  :Big Grin:  But I hope Tim and the others go back to Young Justice, because they don't belong to the Outsiders. Black Lightning, Metamorpho, Geo-Force, Katana......it's their team, so replace them with some teens, well, maybe their fans won't appreciate it. I know Tim would have led them in the old universe, but still. If he brings his friends too, that won't be the Outsider anymore.  :Smile:  I have to admit, the concept was interesting, but it was the old Tim, not this New52/Rebirth version. So Red Robin and the Outsiders could have worked, but the reboot changed everything. 

1.jpg

2.jpg

----------


## Casantrizos

Yeah we all the know the rumors were pretty bogus,but my point still being that Kara is a worthy character to be the YJ super if DC really can't be bothered to make Kon work alongside Jon. (Batman can have like 4 sons and a daughter at the same time but god forbid Supes have a real extended family) and I really would like power girl to be on a new team book and Titans tower being in Manhattan, where she's going to be basing out of seems like it's a pretty good set up to it.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Yeah we all the know the rumors were pretty bogus,but my point still being that Kara is a worthy character to be the YJ super if DC really can't be bothered to make Kon work alongside Jon. (Batman can have like 4 sons and a daughter at the same time but god forbid Supes have a real extended family) and I really would like power girl to be on a new team book and Titans tower being in Manhattan, where she's going to be basing out of seems like it's a pretty good set up to it.


I think Power Girl goes back to the JSA, but the Titans sounds cool, too. Conner is Geoff Johns' favourite character, no way he will let him in limbo. He hated what the New52 did to Conner, so he will find a way to bring him back.  :Smile:  Maybe there could be 2 Super on the team, I mean, it's not like there is a limit for them.  :Big Grin:  Since Kara appeared in the DC universe again, she belongs to Tim's generation. Her old Pre-crisis self and Linda were older, but the new Kara is totally a Young Justice material.  :Smile:

----------


## Casantrizos

And if they brought back old Kon, he'd be their powerhouse for sure, but I don't think he was ever at Kara and Kals level and having her there would certainly give them some extra firepower. Plus I can't really think of a lot of team books that Supergirl's been on.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> And if they brought back old Kon, he'd be their powerhouse for sure, but I don't think he was ever at Kara and Kals level and having her there would certainly give them some extra firepower. Plus I can't really think of a lot of team books that Supergirl's been on.


She was with the Legion for a while, but I guess that's it. She really needs a team book, and if Stephanie Brown could be there with her....... I loved their Batgirl/Supergirl dynamic, so I was sad when Babs became Batgirl again.  :Frown:  She was awesome as Oracle, but now she just a young, sometimes immature girl with a lot of boyfriends.

----------


## Assam

I don't want Kara on the new YJ team. At all. Even if it was alongside Kon, I still wouldn't like it. 

First, I don't think the current Kara would gel with the group at all. Yes, she was a member of Teen Titans in the 2000's,but her character was VERY different. Namely, she was an assholish, bitchy teenager like everyone else during that time. With everyone having their personalities in tact, hopefully, I don't think she'd be a good fit with the YJ4. Plus, it'd be two Supers, as opposed to bringing in someone from a different mythos, or, you know, ACTUAL YJ MEMBERS. 

Then there's just the fact of powers. I'm sorry, but if you've got a genius, two people with super strength,a speedster, and someone with all the power of SUPERMAN, you don't really need anyone else.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim's face is hilarious.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  When your girlfriend asks you to take her to Birthing classes, but the child isn't even yours.  :Big Grin: 

Robin_issue 059.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think Power Girl goes back to the JSA, but the Titans sounds cool, too. Conner is Geoff Johns' favourite character, no way he will let him in limbo. He hated what the New52 did to Conner, so he will find a way to bring him back.  Maybe there could be 2 Super on the team, I mean, it's not like there is a limit for them.  Since Kara appeared in the DC universe again, she belongs to Tim's generation. Her old Pre-crisis self and Linda were older, but the new Kara is totally a Young Justice material.


I'd rather see Starfire back on Titans than Power Girl, I doubt they'd both be included because of power levels. PG belongs on the JSA. I don't really like Supergirl so I'd rather she not be on Tim's team, and we've already got Cassie to be the tough blonde of the group. If Blue Beetle and Aqualad are going to be unavailable for YJ because of TT, then maybe they should use the forgotten YJ heroes Secret, Empress, and Arrowette.

----------


## Assam

> maybe they should use the forgotten YJ heroes Secret, Empress, and Arrowette.


Exactly what I've been saying in every YJ discussion. 

Well, sort of. 

I personally feel that Greta and Cissie's stories were told, and going back on them would be an insult. Having them as supporting characters though would be cool.

The Ray is with JLA now so he won't be on the team again. 

But Empress and Slobo? They most definitely SHOULD be on the team. Maybe this time they'll actually be able to act on their feelings for one another.

----------


## twincast

> Select your character,
> 
> Attachment 47282





> Props to Tim, he's only had 1 bad look in his entire existence. 2 if you count that awful haircut from the Arkham Games. 3 if you count Mr Sarcastic


I disagree. In the order in the picture above: Good - Great - Awful (too plain) - Good - Awful (too busy) - Great
As for missing ones:
Ünternet: Sexy
Mister Sarcastic: Silly
Alvin Draper: Funny
Nurse: Pretty
Batman (Battle for the Cowl): Good
Batman (Titans Tomorrow): Great
Arkham City: Good
Arkham Knight: Great

And if only his haircut were the worst problem with Arkhamverse Tim...




> Exactly what I've been saying in every YJ discussion. 
> 
> Well, sort of. 
> 
> I personally feel that Greta and Cissie's stories were told, and going back on them would be an insult. Having them as supporting characters though would be cool.
> 
> The Ray is with JLA now so he won't be on the team again. 
> 
> But Empress and Slobo? They most definitely SHOULD be on the team. Maybe this time they'll actually be able to act on their feelings for one another.


QFT

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Smile:  

tumblr_ncy4f2aQOe1ssxc9vo1_1280.jpg

tumblr_ncy4f2aQOe1ssxc9vo2_1280.jpg

I love all the red suits, but yeah, the Ünternet costume is the sexiest  :Big Grin:  I would choose that or the perfect Red Robin suit from Marcus To. I don't like the green ones, but then again, I never find any costume pretty in green. Maybe I just simply dislike that colour.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

"I was being turned into a Kardashian." I miss Tim's sarcastic sense of humour, he totally lost it when Lobdell destroyed his personality.  :Frown: 

Red Robin 016.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> I personally feel that Greta and Cissie's stories were told, and going back on them would be an insult. Having them as supporting characters though would be cool.


I don't see a problem with bringing Cissie back, but I agree in Greatas case.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Wally  :Smile: 

Robin issue 062a.jpg

Robin issue 062b.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> No, Tim and Kon belong together. Their friendship is pure awesomeness. 
> 
> Attachment 47363


I loved Tim and Kon's friendship. I was hoping Kon was the one who escaped from Oz' prison cell. Hopefully, DC will bring him back soon. I really miss him  :Frown:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I loved Tim and Kon's friendship. I was hoping Kon was the one who escaped from Oz' prison cell. Hopefully, DC will bring him back soon. I really miss him


I was hoping the same.  :Smile:  When it turned out to be Mr. Mxyzptlk, I was disappointed. Tim, Kon and Bart should come back ASAP, and every one of them needs a solo, just like in the old days. All of them had good runs, while they hung out in Young justice. I hope all of their memories come back, because they did a lot of awesome stuff together.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I was hoping the same.  When it turned out to be Mr. Mxyzptlk, I was disappointed. Tim, Kon and Bart should come back ASAP, and every one of them needs a solo, just like in the old days. All of them had good runs, while they hung out in Young justice. I hope all of their memories come back, because they did a lot of awesome stuff together.


DC will never capture the magic their teen books had in the 90's. 

Seriously: Robin, Impulse, Superboy, Young Justice, Damage, The Ray, Legion of Superheroes and Legionnaires, the Dan Jurgens Teen Titans, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E: ALL AMAZING BOOKS!

----------


## The Whovian

> I was hoping the same.  When it turned out to be Mr. Mxyzptlk, I was disappointed. Tim, Kon and Bart should come back ASAP, and every one of them needs a solo, just like in the old days. All of them had good runs, while they hung out in Young justice. I hope all of their memories come back, because they did a lot of awesome stuff together.


Yep. Tim and Kon deserve to have solo books again.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> DC will never capture the magic their teen books had in the 90's. 
> 
> Seriously: Robin, Impulse, Superboy, Young Justice, Damage, The Ray, Legion of Superheroes and Legionnaires, the Dan Jurgens Teen Titans, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E: ALL AMAZING BOOKS!


Yeah, they were a lot of fun.  :Big Grin:  I love Tim's Robin series, but I laughed on Bart's series so hard.  :Big Grin:  It was fantastic. And Kon's ego was so huge, it was a miracle he could be the same room with it.  :Big Grin:  Of course Kon used every opportunity to talk about his tactile telekinesis. He was so cocky, Tim seriously wanted to beat him with the Kryptonite ring a few times. XDXDXD

----------


## skyvolt2000

> DC will never capture the magic their teen books had in the 90's. 
> 
> Seriously: Robin, Impulse, Superboy, Young Justice, Damage, The Ray, Legion of Superheroes and Legionnaires, the Dan Jurgens Teen Titans, Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E: ALL AMAZING BOOKS!


They don't want to go back.

That's an entire line you could use to takeover the wide pone teen/kid market.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Poor Kon, Tim wanted to whip his butt again.  :Big Grin: 

Young Justice No man's land.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

More Tim and Wally stuff  :Big Grin: 

Robin issue 063a.jpg

Robin issue 063b.jpg

Robin issue 063c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 063d.jpg

Robin issue 063e.jpg

Robin issue 063f.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

"I bet he's one of those quite types no one ever suspects of being a mass murderer...but is." 
Well Zoanne, that's just cold. She didn't have a very good opinion about Tim at first.  :Big Grin: 

Robin issue 150a.jpg

Robin issue 150b.jpg

Robin issue 152a.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> Robin issue 063d.jpg
> 
> Robin issue 063e.jpg
> 
> Robin issue 063f.jpg


I enjoyed that crossover. I believe Superman showed up towards the end if I'm not mistaken.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 152b.jpg

Robin issue 152c.jpg

Robin issue 152d.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin issue 152e.jpg

Robin issue 152f.jpg

Robin issue 152g.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I enjoyed that crossover. I believe Superman showed up towards the end if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, he appeared in issue #63.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Ra's al Ghul, the Butler of the Damned.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

Red Robin 004.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

I love the old family dynamic between them.  :Big Grin:  The good old times when Barbara was mature and witty, while Dick and Tim acted like real brothers.  :Smile: 

Robin_issue 071a.jpg

Robin_issue 071b.jpg

Robin_issue 071c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Robin_issue 071d.jpg

Robin_issue 071e.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

So funny  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

5.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> I love the old family dynamic between them.  The good old times when Barbara was mature and witty, while Dick and Tim acted like real brothers. 
> 
> Attachment 47553
> 
> Attachment 47554
> 
> Attachment 47555


Loved that period in the Bat Fam

----------


## Assam

> Loved that period in the Bat Fam


The BatFam was never better IMO than when it was: Bruce, Tim, Dick, Babs, Cass, Steph, and Jean-Paul.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The BatFam was never better IMO than when it was: Bruce, Tim, Dick, Babs, Cass, Steph, and Jean-Paul.


Another great era was right before the New-52 happened.

----------


## Assam

> Another great era was right before the New-52 happened.


Agreed. That's my second favorite era.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Agreed. That's my second favorite era.


I can't decide between the two

----------


## Assam

> I can't decide between the two


Honestly, obvious as it is for me, it's Cass that lets the late 90's-early 2000's win out. 

Both have Steph being awesome, both have Tim being awesome, both had Babs being awesome, the earlier era has Jean-Paul being awesome while the later era has Damian being awesome (I like those two equally), and while DickBats is MUCH better than what Bruce and Dick were both up to in the earlier era, the book doesn't come close to Cass's solo for me.

----------


## KrustyKid

Another for Rebirth RR,

rr.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Another great era was right before the New-52 happened.


That's my favorite era, except for the Hunt for Tim's V Card.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That's my favorite era, except for the Hunt for Tim's V Card.


The hunt was in full swing at that time, lol

----------


## Assam

> The hunt was in full swing at that time, lol


look tim.jpg

10char

----------


## KrustyKid

Cass to the rescue,

9c3a4402ecf7436ee56960a95672e752.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Cass to the rescue,
> 
> 9c3a4402ecf7436ee56960a95672e752.jpg
> 
> 3.jpg


Even if she didn't do too much, Cass never LOOKED better as Black Bat than in Red Robin.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Okay, I know I already posted this before, but I have to do it again. I can't resist.  :Big Grin:  "Every time you have dirty thoughts about Tim, the terrorists wins"  :Big Grin: 

chastity_club_by_microbluefish-d3nsmdo.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> Okay, I know I already posted this before, but I have to do it again. I can't resist.  "Every time you have dirty thoughts about Tim, the terrorists wins" 
> 
> chastity_club_by_microbluefish-d3nsmdo.jpg


That's some deep stuff right there

----------


## Assam

It's a shame that even if Cass gets adopted in Rebirth continuity, she'll only be able to play big sis to Damian, whereas she used to also be older than Tim and Jason. Hell, outside of that fight Cass let Jason win in BR:E, all these years after Jason's return Cass has had NO interraction with Jason. You'd think she'd be the first one to tell him "No killing."

----------


## KrustyKid

I'd like to see more Cass and Jason interactions in general

----------


## Aioros22

> It's a shame that even if Cass gets adopted in Rebirth continuity, she'll only be able to play big sis to Damian, whereas she used to also be older than Tim and Jason. Hell, outside of that fight Cass let Jason win in BR:E, all these years after Jason's return Cass has had NO interraction with Jason. You'd think she'd be the first one to tell him "No killing."


I disliked the whole "nobody talks about him" bit back then. Just drama for dramas sake. But overall I want them to interact more, because thematically they fit. 

P.S: Not willing to kill is one thing and you can make the case that it would hamper her abilities but nowhere is made the point she threw the fight. She was about to be _killed,_ with neither her or Jay knowing Grayson was about to show u and stop it. She wouldn`t have accomplished her mission being dead. 

The fight with Dick supports it. Not being killed is what made him suspect she was holding back somewhat, not that she didn`t fight at all.

----------


## Assam

> I disliked the whole "nobody talks about him" bit back then. Just drama for dramas sake. But overall I want them to interact more, because thematically they fit. 
> 
> P.S: Not willing to kill is one thing and you can make the case that it would hamper her abilities but nowhere is made the point she threw the fight. She was about to be _killed,_ with neither her or Jay knowing Grayson was about to show u and stop it. She wouldn`t have accomplished her mission being dead. 
> 
> The fight with Dick supports it. Not being killed is what made him suspect she was holding back somewhat, not that she didn`t fight at all.


If you want to PM me to continue this, go ahead. Let's not clog up the Tim thread with a convo about Jason and Cass. All I'll say here is that by "about to killed" you mean Jason  had his blades ready to take her out. There was nothing to suggest she wouldn't have be able to get out of his grip and counter. Plus, considering how her scuffle with Dick went previously, it's safe to say Cass was going easy.

cass wins.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

We saw what Cass VS Dick and Cass VS Jason turned out. How do you guys think Cass VS Tim would have went? I beileve it happened off panel and this is how it all went down;

Tim attempted to button spam her all while Cass looked over at him curiously. Once Tim realized Cass had nothing to hack he then launched forward with a flying Liu Kang kick only to miss. Cass then went go on to rip his ridiculous New-52 wings off and stare him in the face with one thing to say: "Better."

And ladies and gens, that's how we got to the introduction of Tim's Rebirth uniform. We can't thank Cassandra Cain enough.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> We saw what Cass VS Dick and Cass VS Jason turned out. How do you guys think Cass VS Tim would have went? I beileve it happened off panel and this is how it all went down;
> 
> Tim attempted to button spam her all while Cass looked over at him curiously. Once Tim realized Cass had nothing to hack he then launched forward with a flying Liu Kang kick only to miss. Cass then went go on to rip his ridiculous New-52 wings off and stare him in the face with one thing to say: "Better."
> 
> And ladies and gens, that's how we got to the introduction of Tim's Rebirth uniform. We can't thank Cassandra Cain enough.


Why this so much hate for Tim's New52 costume? He looked like a smexy Vegas Showgirl! How cool is that?  :Big Grin:  And he was so graceful when he flew, his appearance was totally eye-catching.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> Why this so much hate for Tim's New52 costume? He looked like a smexy Vegas Showgirl! How cool is that?  And he was so graceful when he flew, his appearance was totally eye-catching.


I honestly don't know. I miss the Fake Dr. Mid-Nite look because I liked that era of stories, but as a design, I thought the wings were kinda cool.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I honestly don't know. I miss the Fake Dr. Mid-Nite look because I liked that era of stories, but as a design, I thought the wings were kinda cool.


My favourite era, too.  :Big Grin:  Maybe Tim was a Dr. Mid-Nite ripoff, but that's still my favourite costume.  :Big Grin:  And of course there was Steph, her Batgirl costume was so perfect, I miss it so much.  :Frown:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Rebirth Steph dislikes the Showgirl wings, I bet she is just jealous.  :Big Grin: 

page_14.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> My favourite era, too.  Maybe Tim was a Dr. Mid-Nite ripoff, but that's still my favourite costume.  And of course there was Steph, her Batgirl costume was so perfect, I miss it so much.


Me too  :Frown: 




> Rebirth Steph dislikes the Showgirl wings, I bet she is just jealous. 
> 
> page_14.jpg


Much as Steph is my favorite character, I don't think his old costume was as bad. But I'm not dating Tim, so there's that.  :Wink:

----------


## scary harpy

> My favourite era, too.  *Maybe Tim was a Dr. Mid-Nite ripoff, but that's still my favourite costume*.  And of course there was Steph, her Batgirl costume was so perfect, I miss it so much.


Tim does not have to be a Dr. Midnight rip-off; he could be *Doctor Midnight*! (He probably has a doctorate in something.) Or just *Midnight*. Both are great names.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Me too 
> 
> 
> 
> Much as Steph is my favorite character, I don't think his old costume was as bad. But I'm not dating Tim, so there's that.


Tim is a smart boy, he doesn't dare to question his girlfriend, because he fears the consequences. So he will pretend that he already threw out that costume, but when nobody sees him, he will totally wear it. :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

If Tim becomes Dr. Midnight, I'm gonna f**king cry. 

Also, Krusty, your explanation for what happened to the wings is my new headcanon. 

And yes, Steph's Batgirl suit is possibly the best costume of anyone in the Batfamily. Considering she also has the best Robin suit, I think fashonista Steph here knows what she's talking about when she insults the wings.

----------


## Assam

> Tim is a smart boy, he doesn't dare to question his girlfriend, because he fears the consequences. So he will pretend that he already threw out that costume, but when nobody sees him, he will totally wear it.


I mean, pretty much ANY Steph except for when she was starting out could kick NuTim's ass, so he's right to be afraid. Plus he knows she could always just leave him for Cass.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

> If you want to PM me to continue this, go ahead. Let's not clog up the Tim thread with a convo about Jason and Cass. All I'll say here is that by "about to killed" you mean Jason  had his blades ready to take her out. There was nothing to suggest she wouldn't have be able to get out of his grip and counter. Plus, considering how her scuffle with Dick went previously, it's safe to say Cass was going easy.
> 
> cass wins.jpg


About to be killed is pretty self explanatory, that`s all really.

----------


## Aioros22

I also don`t get the hate the 52 costume gets. It`s not that bad a design. It needed tweeks but it`s actually a variation (an exageratted one granted) of the previous Red Robin look. 

The wings were the distracting bit.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim does not have to be a Dr. Midnight rip-off; he could be *Doctor Midnight*! (He probably has a doctorate in something.) Or just *Midnight*. Both are great names.



I think he needs his own identity. 3 person have already wore the Dr. Mid-Nite costume, so Tim doesn't need another legacy name. He was Robin III., I think it's time for him to figure out a unique name, something that's really belongs to him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I also don`t get the hate the 52 costume gets. It`s not that bad a design. It needed tweeks but it`s actually a variation (an exageratted one granted) of the previous Red Robin look. 
> 
> The wings were the distracting bit.


It wasn't really the wings that bothered me. But rather the suit itself. It was far too noisy. Had they toned it down a bit it could have been one of Tim's better unique looks.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I mean, pretty much ANY Steph except for when she was starting out could kick NuTim's ass, so he's right to be afraid. Plus he knows she could always just leave him for Cass.


Nah, Steph isn't going anywhere, this scenario is more likely  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

can__t_fight_this_by_colours07-d2yh10r.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It wasn't really the wings that bothered me. But rather the suit itself. It was far too noisy. Had they toned it down a bit it could have been one of Tim's better unique looks.


Yes, it was to noisy, but a lot depended on the artist who was doing the drawing. Sometimes it looked really good, other times it looked like garbage.

----------


## Assam

> Nah, Steph isn't going anywhere, this scenario is more likely  
> 
> can__t_fight_this_by_colours07-d2yh10r.jpg


Know what? I'd settle for Tim being involved as well if it meant getting the girls together. I remember back when Cass's solo book was out, lots of fans shipped her and Tim (They were even a couple in an issue of Solo), but I've always seen it as a Big sister, little brother relationship.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Know what? I'd settle for Tim being involved as well if it meant getting the girls together. I remember back when Cass's solo book was out, lots of fans shipped her and Tim (They were even a couple in an issue of Solo), but I've always seen it as a Big sister, little brother relationship.


When Cass was evil (uhhhh) she had a fixation on Tim when she appeared in the Robin and the Teen Titans series. It was weird and really out of character. Yes, I read that Solo issue, it was still weird.  :Big Grin:  But an open relationship between those 3, who knows, maybe it could be fun. Of course none of them so open minded, maybe they should have a chat with Dick.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> When Cass was evil (uhhhh) she had a fixation on Tim when she appeared in the Robin and the Teen Titans series. It was weird and really out of character. Yes, I read that Solo issue, it was still weird.  But an open relationship between those 3, who knows, maybe it could be fun. Of course none of them so open minded, maybe they should have a chat with Dick.


That would be one unexpected storyline, lol

----------


## millernumber1

I'm still completely puzzled why the CassTim shippers swarmed the ramparts when Gates of Gotham ended. I was like...this is clearly friendship. But they were all "CassTim 4EVA!"

----------


## Frontier

> I'm still completely puzzled why the CassTim shippers swarmed the ramparts when Gates of Gotham ended. I was like...this is clearly friendship. But they were all "CassTim 4EVA!"


(Perceived) Sub-text is a powerful thing...

----------


## KrustyKid

> (Perceived) Sub-text is a powerful thing...


It most certainly is

----------


## Aioros22

Context? What even?

I had no idea there was a ship of those two under the overhelming Kon response.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Context? What even?
> 
> I had no idea there was a ship of those two under the overhelming Kon response.


Yep, it was a ship large enough to compete with the Titanic :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That would be one unexpected storyline, lol


This reminds me of Archie, Veronica and Betty. The girls' hair colour already a match, but Tim needs to be careful, because everyone likes the redheads (okay, except Eric Cartman). If Tim becomes a redhead, Dick will start flirting with him immediately. Dick can't resist, the redheads are his weakness.  :Big Grin:  

grayson_s_redheads_by_biazerod-da6uo3f.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> This reminds me of Archie, Veronica and Betty. The girls' hair colour already a match, but Tim needs to be careful, because everyone likes the redheads (okay, except Eric Cartman). If Tim becomes a redhead, Dick will start flirting with him immediately. Dick can't resist, the redheads are his weakness.  
> 
> grayson_s_redheads_by_biazerod-da6uo3f.jpg


Where's Kate? :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Where's Kate?


Renee is hiding her, they both fear of Dick's irresistible charm. Kate doesn't want to be a part of Dick's harem, so she went into voluntary exile. She might never return to Gotham, the risk is too high.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> Renee is hiding her, they both fear of Dick's irresistible charm. Kate doesn't want to be a part of Dick's harem, so she went into voluntary exile. She might never return to Gotham, the risk is too high.


Yeah, no. Kate's with Renee, but only because they find Dick's flirtations annoying, and know they can only kick his ass together.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah, no. Kate's with Renee, but only because they find Dick's flirtations annoying, and know they can only kick his ass together.


Perhaps that's what they say. Deep down within their conscious they too crave the Grayson.

----------


## KrustyKid

All the boys,

tumblr_olllqociCm1vdpaemo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> All the boys,
> 
> tumblr_olllqociCm1vdpaemo1_1280.jpg


The boys look like they mean business here  :Cool: .

----------


## KrustyKid

The good times,

tumblr_olul7vhHVa1qde18do1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yep, the good times.  :Smile:  I miss them so much.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

We need the YJ3 back in form

----------


## Red obin

I miss the completely random Bart Allen the most out of all of them. He was never the same after Young justice and Impulse were cancelled, even the YJ to show could not capture that magic, which is sadly because it is stuck in the late 90's . :Stick Out Tongue: 

But back to Tim! I added some great Tim quotes into my signature for y'all.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

5.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

go_auction__young_justice_robin_by_horyuu-d5vx78k.jpg

10char

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## shadowsgirl

tumblr_n4y4iky5MZ1qj8plno1_1280.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

tumblr_nqoyn6UuHn1t0mv3ao2_1280.jpg

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

tumblr_oh3kdsICnA1uikt1jo1_1280.jpg

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----------


## shadowsgirl

Batfamily cosplay  :Smile:  Sailor Moon for life  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

s_w_i_t_c_h_by_colours07-d4w7tid.jpg

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

Dick, the best(??????) big brother in the world  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

1.dick_super_awkward_by_axis33-d3i3ykm.jpg

2.dick_world__s_best_brother_by_axis33-d3emq6w.jpg

3.dick_world__s_best_brother_by_axis33-d3emq6w.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.dick_world__s_best_brother_by_axis33-d3emq6w.jpg

5.dick_world__s_best_brother_by_axis33-d3emq6w.jpg

6.dick_world__s_best_brother_by_axis33-d3emq6w.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

The scary short shorts strike again  :Big Grin: 

tumblr_m3rl3pMzjH1qc5zcko1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Steph was a serious Robin fangirl, but this is a little bit too much.  :Big Grin: 

batgirl_crush_by_colossus484-d3esisi.jpg

Although Rose had a Robin panties, too.  :Big Grin:  It's from Teen Titans: Cold Case  :Big Grin: 

rose.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Rose and Tim

Teen Titans v3 035 (1).jpg

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----------


## shadowsgirl

Teen Titans v3 035 (4).jpg

Teen Titans v3 035 (5).jpg

Teen Titans v3 035 (6).jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Rose is way too obsessive  :Big Grin: 

1. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

2. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

3. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

5. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

6. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

7. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

8. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

9. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

10. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

11. Teen Titans - Cold Case (2011).jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> The scary short shorts strike again 
> 
> Attachment 47849


Hahahah, that's nice

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim, Steph, and Jason PR style,

the_robins_as_red_rangers_by_jasontodd1fan-db52bgk.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Tim, Steph, and Jason PR style,
> 
> the_robins_as_red_rangers_by_jasontodd1fan-db52bgk.jpg


*Adores Power Rangers*

This is great! Though if I actually had to say which Red Ranger each Robin would be...

Dick- Jason (Yes, they put Jason as Jason cause their names are the same but still) 

Jason- Eric

Tim- TJ

Steph - Either Lauren (Because they're the only girls) or going strictly by personality, Leo. 

Damian- Connor

----------


## KrustyKid

> *Adores Power Rangers*
> 
> This is great! Though if I actually had to say which Red Ranger each Robin would be...
> 
> Dick- Jason (Yes, they put Jason as Jason cause their names are the same but still) 
> 
> Jason- Eric
> 
> Tim- TJ
> ...


I can agree to this

----------


## shadowsgirl

aXRGZCthVWZoSUlu.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

Harley Quinn 010 (2001).jpg

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

Tim is fangirling over Cass. Teenage boys and their hormones...  :Big Grin:  He is really cute here, so awkwardly adorable. Tim always starts chattering when he gets embarrassed.  :Smile: 

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## shadowsgirl

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## Assam

I'm pretty sure that issue alone is responsible for about 75% of TimCass shippers. XD

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## Atlanta96

I think Tim now holds the record for the most repeatedly referenced but never actually used character in comics history. Between showing his costume every month and his allies constant reminders of his "death", they just can't stop reminding us he exists. It gets more annoying every time, the one year anniversary of his dismissal is coming up and if he's not back by then it's beyond ridiculous.

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## Assam

> I think Tim now holds the record for the most repeatedly referenced but never actually used character in comics history. Between showing his costume every month and his allies constant reminders of his "death", they just can't stop reminding us he exists. It gets more annoying every time, the one year anniversary of his dismissal is coming up and if he's not back by then it's beyond ridiculous.


HAHAHAHA! 

You weren't reading Batbooks in the 90's, were you? Two words, dude: Jason. Todd.

And that's just DC. I think Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacey may have Jason beat too.

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## Atlanta96

> HAHAHAHA! 
> 
> You weren't reading Batbooks in the 90's, were you? Two words, dude: Jason. Todd.
> 
> And that's just DC. I think Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacey may have Jason beat too.


Well, it's only been 8 months since Tim vanished and he's been mentioned like 20-30 times total. Seems like a higher frequency to me, especially considering he's not even dead and all readers know this.

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## Pohzee

Todd was dead and supposed to stay dead. He wasn't in limbo.

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## Atlanta96

> Todd was dead and supposed to stay dead. He wasn't in limbo.


That's the point, it's even more annoying to keep hearing about Tim's seat when we know he's not really dead.

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## Pohzee

> That's the point, it's even more annoying to keep hearing about Tim's seat when we know he's not really dead.


I agree. I picked up 'Tec hoping to like Tim more, but the constant, shallow mentions of his "death" have turned me against his character to an extent.

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## Assam

> Todd was dead and supposed to stay dead. He wasn't in limbo.


I'm aware. Believe me, I may like Todd more than Grayson these days, but I still think he should have STAYED dead. 

I misunderstood what Atlanta96 said. I thought they were including dead characters.

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## Assam

> I agree. I picked up 'Tec hoping to like Tim more, but the constant, shallow mentions of his "death" have turned me against his character to an extent.


With the exception of the Red Robin solo, Tim sadly hasn't been well written since Infinite Crisis. "Super cocky, could blow up the Earth by pressing buttons Tim" is NOT Tim. So hopefully, when Tim EVENTUALLY returns, they'll work on making him more human again.

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## Pohzee

> With the exception of the Red Robin solo, Tim sadly hasn't been well written since Infinite Crisis. "Super cocky, could blow up the Earth by pressing buttons Tim" is NOT Tim. So hopefully, when Tim EVENTUALLY returns, they'll work on making him more human again.


Tynion's 'Tec had an opposite effect of what I intended. I went in ambivalent towards nuTim and came out thinking worse.

But that could be said for many of the 'Tec cast.

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## Assam

> Tynion's 'Tec had an opposite effect of what I intended. I went in ambivalent towards nuTim and came out thinking worse.
> 
> But that could be said for many of the 'Tec cast.


IMO, Tynion can write Bruce, Kate, and Basil well. We haven't seen enough of his Luke and Jean-Paul to know for sure how he is with them, his Cass and Steph have issues, but they're not terrible, and his Tim (sadly) is the worst, only marginally better than he was in the New52.

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## KrustyKid

> I'm pretty sure that issue alone is responsible for about 75% of TimCass shippers. XD


Can't forget Gates of Gotham

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## KrustyKid

> IMO, Tynion can write Bruce, Kate, and Basil well. We haven't seen enough of his Luke and Jean-Paul to know for sure how he is with them, his Cass and Steph have issues, but they're not terrible, and his Tim (sadly) is the worst, only marginally better than he was in the New52.


Personality wise, rebirth Tim had n-52 Tim beat by miles.

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## Assam

> Personality wise, rebirth Tim had n-52 Tim beat by miles.


Agreed, but it still wasn't great. And everything about how he wrote Tim was still pretty bad.

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## Assam

> Personality wise, rebirth Tim had n-52 Tim beat by miles.


Agreed, but it still wasn't great. And everything about how he wrote Tim was still pretty bad.

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## Atlanta96

I don't think Rebirth Tim is by any means bad, he's just not as good as he should be. Aside from being over-reliant on hacking and lacking a good backstory, Tynion writes Tim as a pretty likable, idealistic whiz kid. Nowhere near Dixon or Yost levels of quality but it's a good start.

Although, ifTynion refuses to fix Tim's backstory then I take back every nice thing I ever said about him.

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## KrustyKid

> Agreed, but it still wasn't great. And everything about how he wrote Tim was still pretty bad.


I disagree. I definitely don't think he was written bad. The over use of tech would be my only real complaint. What is it you found so bad about tec Tim?

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## Assam

> Can't forget Gates of Gotham


I'd say that's about on par with the Fresh Blood crossover in terms of ship fuel . As an aside, it's f**king criminal that we only got a handful of issues featuring the two as "Bludhaven's Dynamic Duo."

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## KrustyKid

> I'd say that's about on par with the Fresh Blood crossover in terms of ship fuel . As an aside, it's f**king criminal that we only got a handful of issues featuring the two as "Bludhaven's Dynamic Duo."


I really enjoyed their dynamic for those four issues.

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## Assam

> I disagree. I definitely don't think he was written bad. The over use of tech would be my only real complaint. What is it you found so bad about tec Tim?


Obviously it's all up to interpretation, but we all hear a character's voice in our heads after reading them for a long time. Tynion's Tim just didn't sound like Tim to me. He also clearly romanticized Tim's relationship with Steph. Let's be honest, much as we like Tim for his other qualities, he was almost never as sweet with her as he was in 'Tec, and was pretty often a dick.

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## KrustyKid

> Obviously it's all up to interpretation, but we all hear a character's voice in our heads after reading them for a long time. Tynion's Tim just didn't sound like Tim to me. He also clearly romanticized Tim's relationship with Steph. Let's be honest, much as we like Tim for his other qualities, he was almost never as sweet with her as he was in 'Tec, and was pretty often a dick.


That is true, lol

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## KrustyKid

Gotta love the squad,

squa.jpg

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## Atlanta96

> Gotta love the squad,
> 
> squa.jpg


Yes, the Bat-Family as it should be. They always ruin the dynamic of the 4 boys by throwing in some heartless new character. The Robins should be an exclusive club.

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## Pohzee

I think that all of the Robins work well together in pairs, but I don't think that they have a good group dynamic. The traits that the Robins play off eachother are different depending on which Robin they interact with, so putting them together throws off the dynamic. For instance, Dick and Tim can have interesting interactions, but throw Damian into the mix and the dynamic is thrown off because Dick and Tim will act differently with Damian around.

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## Atlanta96

> I think that all of the Robins work well together in pairs, but I don't think that they have a good group dynamic. The traits that the Robins play off eachother are different depending on which Robin they interact with, so putting them together throws off the dynamic. For instance, Dick and Tim can have interesting interactions, but throw Damian into the mix and the dynamic is thrown off because Dick and Tim will act differently with Damian around.


The only reason they don't have a good group dynamic is because no writer has had a chance to properly develop it. They've been obstructed by awful new 52 characterizations, stories that didn't lead to good character interactions, and unwelcome god-awful guest characters leeching off the Robins and their stories.

There's no doubt that those four could be an amazing team if there was some bloody effort put into making them one.

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## Assam

> Yes, the Bat-Family as it should be..


Correction: THIS is the Batfamily as it should be:

As it should be.jpg

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## Atlanta96

> Correction: THIS is the Batfamily as it should be:
> 
> As it should be.jpg


Well, it's the Bat-Boys as they should be. I love most of the Family but I think the Robins should be a prestigious group.

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## Assam

> Well, it's the Bat-Boys as they should be. I love most of the Family but I think the Robins should be a prestigious group.


Fair enough about the Batboys part (Although I still count Jean-Paul). I agree that the Robins should be a prestigious group, hence why Snyder and his "more than a Robin" are so frustrating, but Steph's a Robin too, and I think of any fanart with "all" the Robins, and no her, as incomplete.

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## josai21

I'd give anything to see Dixon write a solid Bat boys book. TMNT has proven a book about four brothers can work, you just need a writer who won't stereotype the Robins. Dixon could do that imo

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## shadowsgirl

Steph  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  She was a really persistent Tim fangirl.  :Smile:  

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## shadowsgirl

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## shadowsgirl

Ha, so the General was a technophobe. It's interesting, considering his Rebirth portrayal. Now he is obsessed with every tech thing, just like Tim. Sigh, I miss the good old days. I swear, if Tim keeps pushing his stupid buttons, I will go mad. 

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## Assam

> Ha, so the General was a technophobe. It's interesting, considering his Rebirth portrayal. Now he is obsessed with every tech thing, just like Tim. Sigh, I miss the good old days. I swear, if Tim keeps pushing his stupid buttons, I will go mad. 
> 
> page_6.jpg


Hold on...Tim has been pressing buttons for years. Luke was brought on to replace him as the team's main button presser. And even STEPH is now pressing buttons to get wins. 

I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner...

THIS HAS ALL BEEN BUILD UP TO 'THE BUTTON' CROSSOVER!!!

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## rev516

> Hold on...Tim has been pressing buttons for years. Luke was brought on to replace him as the team's main button presser. And even STEPH is now pressing buttons to get wins. 
> 
> I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner...
> 
> THIS HAS ALL BEEN BUILD UP TO 'THE BUTTON' CROSSOVER!!!


I love you for this.

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## Aahz

> Ha, so the General was a technophobe. It's interesting, considering his Rebirth portrayal. Now he is obsessed with every tech thing, just like Tim. Sigh, I miss the good old days.


His stick was that he was obsessed with military stuff, not with computers. 
Imo allready what they did with him in Red Robin was not really in line with his previous portrait.

The Tech Genius part was more Lonnies thing. (Btw. I think a Classic Lonnie vs. Classic General story could have been fun.)

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## shadowsgirl

> Hold on...Tim has been pressing buttons for years. Luke was brought on to replace him as the team's main button presser. And even STEPH is now pressing buttons to get wins. 
> 
> I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner...
> 
> THIS HAS ALL BEEN BUILD UP TO 'THE BUTTON' CROSSOVER!!!


Haha, you're a genius. You revealed the button conspiracy.  :Big Grin:

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## Assam

> The Tech Genius part was more Lonnies thing. (Btw. I think a Classic Lonnie vs. Classic General story could have been fun.)


I mean, it was as a computer program, or something, but Lonnie did help Tim stop The General when he was using the Anarky mantle.

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## Aahz

> I mean, it was as a computer program, or something, but Lonnie did help Tim stop The General when he was using the Anarky mantle.


But they didn't interact in person, and that were hardly the classic versions of these characters.

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## Assam

> But they didn't interact in person, and that were hardly the classic versions of these characters.


The classic version of Lonnie can only be written by Alan Grant. Honestly, I think what we saw of him in Red Robin was as close to a good take as we can expect from anyone else.

If Lonnie does come back, which I really want to happen eventually because he's my favorite anti-hero, I wouldn't expect anyone of DC's current writers to get him perfect. 

I will agree that that version of Ulysses was weird though.

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## shadowsgirl

> His stick was that he was obsessed with military stuff, not with computers. 
> Imo allready what they did with him in Red Robin was not really in line with his previous portrait.
> 
> The Tech Genius part was more Lonnies thing. (Btw. I think a Classic Lonnie vs. Classic General story could have been fun.)


Classic General was a sociopath, depraved brat, but I liked his megalomaniac personality. New General is just an annoying tech wiz, and he will do something with Tim's Rebirth suit in the next Detective issue. That bastard.  :Big Grin:

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## Assam

> New General just an annoying tech wiz, and he will do something with Tim's Rebirth suit in the next Detective issue. That bastard.


If we're lucky, we'll get to see Cass punch him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## shadowsgirl

> If we're lucky, we'll get to see Cass punch him.


I hope so.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

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## KrustyKid

> Hold on...Tim has been pressing buttons for years. Luke was brought on to replace him as the team's main button presser. And even STEPH is now pressing buttons to get wins. 
> 
> I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner...
> 
> THIS HAS ALL BEEN BUILD UP TO 'THE BUTTON' CROSSOVER!!!


You nailed it! Great deduction

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## Assam

So I just thought about it, and now I'm really hoping Ulysses, and whatever he does, causes Tim's suit to get destroyed. Maybe then we can get him back in his proper Red Robin suit...

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## shadowsgirl

> So I just thought about it, and now I'm really hoping Ulysses, and whatever he does, causes Tim's suit to get destroyed. Maybe then we can get him back in his proper Red Robin suit...


I want the original Red Robin costume back, but I guess Tim has a lot of spare Rebirth suit. Plus, he is wearing one of his Rebirth suit in his cell, so no matter what Ulysses will do, it won't affect Tim's wardrobe.

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## Assam

> I want the original Red Robin costume back, but I guess Tim has a lot of spare Rebirth suit. Plus, he is wearing one of his Rebirth suit in his cell, so no matter what Ulysses will do, it won't affect Tim's wardrobe.


I suppose, but we can still hope the OG Red Robin suit will make a come back. 

And man, I just realized, Tim hasn't been able to shower or wash his suit for MONTHS. Dude must stink!

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## Atlanta96

> I suppose, but we can still hope the OG Red Robin suit will make a come back. 
> 
> And man, I just realized, Tim hasn't been able to shower or wash his suit for MONTHS. Dude must stink!


Also, he's been in there for months and still hasn't grown a beard or longer hair, and there doesn't appear to be a toilet in that cell either. Perhaps Oz is using technology to sustain Tim's appearance and personal hygiene?

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## shadowsgirl

It's from Tynion's twitter. Unpublished Nightwing funeral issue. 

C9pyKS4UwAAy9qy.jpg large.jpg

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## Assam

> "So we're the last of them. The Last of the Robins."


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## millernumber1

> Hold on...Tim has been pressing buttons for years. Luke was brought on to replace him as the team's main button presser. And even STEPH is now pressing buttons to get wins. 
> 
> I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner...
> 
> THIS HAS ALL BEEN BUILD UP TO 'THE BUTTON' CROSSOVER!!!


Ahahahaha. This is so much win.

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## millernumber1

> Attachment 48201
> 
> 10char


To be fair to Tynion (or whoever wrote that issue), n52 didn't even have Steph at that point.

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## Assam

> To be fair to Tynion (or whoever wrote that issue), n52 didn't even have Steph at that point.


I'm aware. Hence why it still makes sense for her to be slapping DiDio, and not Tynion.

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## shadowsgirl

Here is a sexy Tim video for all the fangirls (or fanboys  :Stick Out Tongue: ). Enjoy!  :Big Grin:

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## DragonPiece

are there any stories where tim drake and stephanie get together? I like detective comics, but the book skipped over their relationship.

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## Dataweaver

In the current continuity? No.

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## Assam

> are there any stories where tim drake and stephanie get together? I like detective comics, but the book skipped over their relationship.


They were basically on and off dating throughout the Robin solo title, from the start of the book, till Steph's "death" in War Games. They DID end up getting back together at the end of Batgirl: Convergence too. 

I'll tell you this though: Tynion has REALLY romanticized their relationship. While he had his nice moments, more often than not, Tim was kind of a jerk to Steph, and almost never as sweet to her as he was in 'Tec. Believe me, if Tim was a better boyfriend, I wouldn't prefer CassXSteph so much.

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## Frontier

> They were basically on and off dating throughout the Robin solo title, from the start of the book, till Steph's "death" in War Games. They DID end up getting back together at the end of Batgirl: Convergence too. 
> 
> I'll tell you this though: Tynion has REALLY romanticized their relationship. While he had his nice moments, more often than not, Tim was kind of a jerk to Steph, and almost never as sweet to her as he was in 'Tec. *Believe me, if Tim was a better boyfriend, I wouldn't prefer CassXSteph so much.*


Somehow, I think you still would  :Wink: .

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## Assam

> Somehow, I think you still would .


You misunderstand. CassXSteph IS my OTP and nothing can change that. However, I wouldn't OBJECT to TimXSteph if Tim treated her better.

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## godisawesome

The relationship in 'TEC is almost more about planting a flag for Pre-Flashpoint elements than it was about the characters specifically involved; it was a familiar theme that was reintroduced with no warning almost to refute the state of Tim in the New 52, and to callback to Steph's origin. Having said that, I kind of think it's still a bit wrong to try and compare the two relationships even without the meta-textual moment. 

OG Tim was all about the conflict of his vigilante lifestyle and his life as a teenage boy who didn't want to do that forever, and OG Steph was an odd, unexpected surprise that Dixon found himself creating and writing as a complex character just because readers liked her. Their relationship was largely the result of Dixon just letting the story organically grow over dozens of issues, and throwing all these fascinating conflicts at them. I mean, how is a reluctant teenage vigilante who's been trained to be paranoid about secret identities react to his mentor just breaking the rule to tell his girlfriend? How should he react when the vigilante girlfriend decides to keep a pregnancy and needs support? I mean, $#!+, there was more genuine and competently handled drama in Dixon's Robin than the CW has managed to squeeze out of three tV shows.

In contrast, Rebirth Tim and Steph were literally about getting OG fans reinvested just so they could immediately be given a new paradigm from familiar ground. In a team book.

One relationship had substance. The other basically just said it was sharing that substance.

And DragonPiece, the closest you will ever come to finding the story of Steph and Tim's flirtation will be the first few years of Steph's existance back in the 1990's, since she was largely a supporting character for him for years. You won't find the start of the current relationship, however; the New 52 seemed to have an allergy to Steph existing, and to a well written Tim Drake as well. The place where it would have happened in the New 52 was in Batman Eternal, which kind of retold Steph's first few years...albeit while splitting off about half her traditional story for Harper Rowe.

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## millernumber1

> The relationship in 'TEC is almost more about planting a flag for Pre-Flashpoint elements than it was about the characters specifically involved; it was a familiar theme that was reintroduced with no warning almost to refute the state of Tim in the New 52, and to callback to Steph's origin. Having said that, I kind of think it's still a bit wrong to try and compare the two relationships even without the meta-textual moment. 
> 
> OG Tim was all about the conflict of his vigilante lifestyle and his life as a teenage boy who didn't want to do that forever, and OG Steph was an odd, unexpected surprise that Dixon found himself creating and writing as a complex character just because readers liked her. Their relationship was largely the result of Dixon just letting the story organically grow over dozens of issues, and throwing all these fascinating conflicts at them. I mean, how is a reluctant teenage vigilante who's been trained to be paranoid about secret identities react to his mentor just breaking the rule to tell his girlfriend? How should he react when the vigilante girlfriend decides to keep a pregnancy and needs support? I mean, $#!+, there was more genuine and competently handled drama in Dixon's Robin than the CW has managed to squeeze out of three tV shows.
> 
> In contrast, Rebirth Tim and Steph were literally about getting OG fans reinvested just so they could immediately be given a new paradigm from familiar ground. In a team book.
> 
> One relationship had substance. The other basically just said it was sharing that substance.
> 
> And DragonPiece, the closest you will ever come to finding the story of Steph and Tim's flirtation will be the first few years of Steph's existance back in the 1990's, since she was largely a supporting character for him for years. You won't find the start of the current relationship, however; the New 52 seemed to have an allergy to Steph existing, and to a well written Tim Drake as well. The place where it would have happened in the New 52 was in Batman Eternal, which kind of retold Steph's first few years...albeit while splitting off about half her traditional story for Harper Rowe.


Excellent piece! I'm a bit less harsh on Tec's TimSteph shipping, but in terms of story structure, that's definitely true.

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## Frontier

I do still remember their Meet Cute moment in _Batman: Eternal_ quite well  :Smile: .

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## Assam

> The relationship in 'TEC is almost more about planting a flag for Pre-Flashpoint elements than it was about the characters specifically involved; it was a familiar theme that was reintroduced with no warning almost to refute the state of Tim in the New 52, and to callback to Steph's origin. Having said that, I kind of think it's still a bit wrong to try and compare the two relationships even without the meta-textual moment. 
> 
> OG Tim was all about the conflict of his vigilante lifestyle and his life as a teenage boy who didn't want to do that forever, and OG Steph was an odd, unexpected surprise that Dixon found himself creating and writing as a complex character just because readers liked her. Their relationship was largely the result of Dixon just letting the story organically grow over dozens of issues, and throwing all these fascinating conflicts at them. I mean, how is a reluctant teenage vigilante who's been trained to be paranoid about secret identities react to his mentor just breaking the rule to tell his girlfriend? How should he react when the vigilante girlfriend decides to keep a pregnancy and needs support? I mean, $#!+, there was more genuine and competently handled drama in Dixon's Robin than the CW has managed to squeeze out of three tV shows.
> 
> In contrast, Rebirth Tim and Steph were literally about getting OG fans reinvested just so they could immediately be given a new paradigm from familiar ground. In a team book.
> 
> One relationship had substance. The other basically just said it was sharing that substance.
> 
> And DragonPiece, the closest you will ever come to finding the story of Steph and Tim's flirtation will be the first few years of Steph's existance back in the 1990's, since she was largely a supporting character for him for years. You won't find the start of the current relationship, however; the New 52 seemed to have an allergy to Steph existing, and to a well written Tim Drake as well. The place where it would have happened in the New 52 was in Batman Eternal, which kind of retold Steph's first few years...albeit while splitting off about half her traditional story for Harper Rowe.


I genuinely think DC should pay Dixon to teach a class for the CW writers and the writers of the BatBooks. They all desperately need to learn from him

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## Frontier

I feel like Dixon, or that whole era, could definitely teach the current books a thing or two as far as developing a believable and cohesive Batfamily and character relationships are concerned.

Also, I actually unabashedly enjoy the CW shows  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## Assam

> I feel like Dixon, or that whole era, could definitely teach the current books a thing or two as far as developing a believable and cohesive Batfamily and character relationships are concerned.
> 
> Also, I actually unabashedly enjoy the CW shows .


Dixon: "Snyder, stop trying to leave your mark on the franchise and just focus on telling good stories." 
O'Neil: "Tynion, character development isn't just something you can put on the side. Actually focus on your characters during their "arcs."
Puckett: "King, you're a great writer. Don't worry about what you think will make the readers happy, and just do what comes natural."
Rucka: "Guggenheim..."
*Guggenheim smiles, eagerly awaiting his advice.*
Rucka: "Get out."

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## Red obin

If you want Robin and Spoiler's first date pre new 52 check out Robin #57 as it is a great issue!

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## Red obin

Why is Tim Drake's earliest new 52 Red Robins suit the only new 52 costume with underwear? (excluding that weird Carrie Kelley thing in Batman and Robin)
costume-designs-for-the-first-three-new-52-robins-1.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

He doesn't wear it in this picture

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## Atlanta96

Is that costume still canon? I know those images are from New 52 books but you never see it referenced. Hopefully it'll have a comeback when it turns out Tim was Robin in the current DCU all along.

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## Red obin

> He doesn't wear it in this picture
> 
> 2913353-tumblr_mg0erla20f1rpr8ito1_500.jpg


Weirdly, the arrow and R are also different in that picture and the cape has yellow on the inside. Maybe a secondary costume?




> Is that costume still canon? I know those images are from New 52 books but you never see it referenced. Hopefully it'll have a comeback when it turns out Tim was Robin in the current DCU all along.


I Hope that this costume is still canon even iff TT was not the greatest. It is a good first costume, if we are unable to choose his original outfit. If he did use his original outfit, I would definitely remove the red underwear section on his leotard.

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## shadowsgirl

This is what's missing from Tim's life the most. Just hang out with some friends and deal with normal teenage problems.

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## shadowsgirl

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## Jadeb

Agreed. Sadly, there seems to be little chance of that. Tynion's take is the opposite of "normal teenager."

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## Assam

> Agreed. Sadly, there seems to be little chance of that. Tynion's take is the opposite of "normal teenager."


Sadly, Tynion is letting his fanboyism get the best of him. We all want to see our favorite characters be awesome, but Tynion doesn't seem to want to show his human side. This was the Robin who was supposed to be an everyman, and I never liked that they made him a "World-Class Gymnast" or "The world's GREATEST bo fighter," and none of us like the buttons. Unfortunately, without a solo or possibly just Young Justice, Tim won't get his humanity back.

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## sakuyamons

> Sadly, Tynion is letting his fanboyism get the best of him. We all want to see our favorite characters be awesome, but Tynion doesn't seem to want to show his human side. This was the Robin who was supposed to be an everyman, and I never liked that they made him a "World-Class Gymnast" or "The world's GREATEST bo fighter," and none of us like the buttons. Unfortunately, without a solo or possibly just Young Justice, Tim won't get his humanity back.


Not even the solo will save him if he's written by Tynion (and we know Tynion will drop everything he has to write a Tim solo), I think Tim should be the 'computer boy' of the family, but not one that like...hacks the pentagon in 5 seconds That's Barbara. I'd also like if they made him a competent fighter again.

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## Assam

> Not even the solo will save him if he's written by Tynion (and we know Tynion will drop everything he has to write a Tim solo), I think Tim should be the 'computer boy' of the family, but not one that like...hacks the pentagon in 5 seconds That's Barbara. I'd also like if they made him a competent fighter again.


Yeah, you're right about Tynion likely being the one to write the Tim title. I agree with pretty much everything else.

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## shadowsgirl

> Agreed. Sadly, there seems to be little chance of that. Tynion's take is the opposite of "normal teenager."


Yeah, I don't understand Tynion. He says that Tim is his favourite, but despite of that, his take on the character just feels wrong. He read everything with Tim, he practically grew up with him, and yet, his Tim seems like a different person. Okay, the super genius, absolutely perfect, Olympic level athlete Tim wasn't his idea, but he is still rolling with that nonsense. Tim was popular, because he was relatable and likeable. Sometimes he struggled with his low self-esteem, other times he just tried to find his place in the world, so he acted like normal people does. New52/ Rebirth Tim is just a shell, there is no depth in him. He is a perfect, tech obsessive genius, end of the story. I don't feel any connection with him anymore.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Yeah, I don't understand Tynion. He says that Tim is his favourite, but despite of that, his take on the character just feels wrong. He read everything with Tim, he practically grew up with him, and yet, his Tim seems like a different person. Okay, the super genius, absolutely perfect, Olympic level athlete Tim wasn't his idea, but he is still rolling with that nonsense. Tim was popular, because he was relatable and likeable. Sometimes he struggled with his low self-esteem, other times he just tried to find his place in the world, so he acted like normal people does. New52/ Rebirth Tim is just a shell, there is no depth in him. He is a perfect, tech obsessive genius, end of the story. I don't feel any connection with him anymore.


Well, Tynion is...interesting, I mean, once on twitter I asked him what were his favorite comics and he mentioned Graduation Day, which everyone agrees is pretty much horrible. I think the problem with writing your favorite characters is that sometimes they don't write them the way they are, they write on the way they assimilate them, I don't know if this makes sense? Like, for Tynion, Tim is Red Robin, but he has a green and red suit like on his Robin days and on the flashbacks it's seen like Bruce saw Tim as Batman's partner.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Not even the solo will save him if he's written by Tynion (and we know Tynion will drop everything he has to write a Tim solo), I think Tim should be the 'computer boy' of the family, but not one that like...hacks the pentagon in 5 seconds That's Barbara. I'd also like if they made him a competent fighter again.


Tynion has actually said in Twitter that he doesn't feel like he's the best guy to write a Tim solo precisely because of his fanboyism for the character. I'm proud of him for realizing that.

----------


## Assam

> Tynion has actually said in Twitter that he doesn't feel like he's the best guy to write a Tim solo precisely because of his fanboyism for the character. I'm proud of him for realizing that.


Wow! Good on him!

----------


## sakuyamons

> Tynion has actually said in Twitter that he doesn't feel like he's the best guy to write a Tim solo precisely because of his fanboyism for the character. I'm proud of him for realizing that.


He has? Interesting. Nice guy. 

Who would be good for a Tim solo?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yeah, I don't understand Tynion. He says that Tim is his favourite, but despite of that, his take on the character just feels wrong. He read everything with Tim, he practically grew up with him, and yet, his Tim seems like a different person. Okay, the super genius, absolutely perfect, Olympic level athlete Tim wasn't his idea, but he is still rolling with that nonsense. Tim was popular, because he was relatable and likeable. Sometimes he struggled with his low self-esteem, other times he just tried to find his place in the world, so he acted like normal people does. New52/ Rebirth Tim is just a shell, there is no depth in him. He is a perfect, tech obsessive genius, end of the story. I don't feel any connection with him anymore.


I think Rebirth Tim is a little better than that. He had a bit of an everyman vibe with his desire to give up crimefighting to go to college and he had some sweet interactions with Steph and Bruce that we never really saw during New 52. It's not perfect but I think he's a step in the right direction overall, remember that Tynion is tasked with saving the character from his New 52 characterization. Making him likable at all is kind of impressive.

----------


## Atlanta96

> He has? Interesting. Nice guy. 
> 
> Who would be good for a Tim solo?


Hmm. I'd have to see more current DC writers work with Rebirth Tim before I could give an opinion.

----------


## sakuyamons

I agree that Tim is more likeable on Rebirth...because...remember when this happened

tumblr_ob3pwvzdbQ1u5n5q6o2_1280.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

> I agree that Tim is more likeable on Rebirth...because...remember when this happened
> 
> tumblr_ob3pwvzdbQ1u5n5q6o2_1280.jpg


*cringe* Dialogue hurts.

----------


## Assam

> He has? Interesting. Nice guy. 
> 
> Who would be good for a Tim solo?


I mean, Dixon IS seemingly on decent terms with DC right now, writing the Bane mini and all. So either him, or the only person to ever write almost as good a Tim solo as Dixon, Christopher Yost.

----------


## Assam

> I agree that Tim is more likeable on Rebirth...because...remember when this happened
> 
> tumblr_ob3pwvzdbQ1u5n5q6o2_1280.jpg


Thanks Sakuyamons, now I have to bleach my brain again. I JUST did this yesterday after being reminded of Steph's "Cass is barely a person" line. 

You know, Maybe Clayface and Harper really should be NuCass's closest friends, because REALCASS'S FRIENDS ARE ASSHOLES TO HER!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I think Rebirth Tim is a little better than that. He had a bit of an everyman vibe with his desire to give up crimefighting to go to college and he had some sweet interactions with Steph and Bruce that we never really saw during New 52. It's not perfect but I think he's a step in the right direction overall, remember that Tynion is tasked with saving the character from his New 52 characterization. Making him likable at all is kind of impressive.


Everyman vibe? He designs self-healing buildings and trains, which are able to travel about twenty times as fast as the top speed of the Batmobil. College? He is a 16 year old genius, not just some random student. "Ivy University only gives out one genius grant a year. It's an unparalleled fast track to post-graduate work with the top scientific minds in the country." Do you really think this is normal? There is nothing average or normal about Rebirth Tim. He isn't a real character, he is a walking plot device. Likeable? "This is what happens when you give a 16 year old genius who doesn't sleep an unlimited budget." He is still unbearable and doesn't act like a normal human being, at all. Genius, Olympic level athlete and perfect in everything. You can't convince me about that he is an everyman, because he is clearly not. This character is not the real Tim. The real Tim Drake died in 2011, this new Tim is just an unlikable impostor.

----------


## Pohzee

Obligatory "Timion" Collage






I'll admit to not reading much of the New 52 Teen Titans. In what I did read (his new origin included) he came off as a rather generic leader psuedo-Robin. The over-the-top hacker bits of the New 52 that I've read are all from the current 'Tec scribe.

----------


## Frontier

I enjoyed Tim punking the General and The Colony. That was fun at least  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Atlanta96

Tynion's Tim isn't necessarily unlikable or insufferable, but he's way too smart. He needs to be hit on the head and permanently lose some IQ points as a result. Luke Fox should take over as Gotham's super genius tech specialist, Tim was better as a master strategist with just a bit of technical skills.

----------


## Assam

> Tynion's Tim isn't necessarily unlikable or insufferable, but he's way too smart. He needs to be hit on the head and permanently lose some IQ points as a result. Luke Fox should take over as Gotham's super genius tech specialist, Tim was better as a master strategist with just a bit of technical skills.


In terms of skill, I like him as an above average computer geek, an excellent strategist, somewhere in the top 5 best detectives (THIS IS THE AREA WHERE HE STARTED AS A PRODIGY), and slightly above Steph and slightly below current Damian in combat skill. 

Personality wise, I think that while NuTim was a piece of shit, Rebirth Tim would be fine if they just toned down the smugness. And I mean tone it down A LOT.

----------


## Atlanta96

> In terms of skill, I like him as an above average computer geek, an excellent strategist, somewhere in the top 5 best detectives (THIS IS THE AREA WHERE HE STARTED AS A PRODIGY), and slightly above Steph and slightly below current Damian in combat skill. 
> 
> Personality wise, I think that while NuTim was a piece of shit, Rebirth Tim would be fine if they just toned down the smugness. And I mean tone it down A LOT.


I don't think he's that smug.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I don't think he's that smug.


Err...He is a cocky, smug brat, so I feel an urge to punch him in the face.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  Yes, New52 Tim was worse than Rebirth Tim, but not that much. He is my favourite comic book character, but I loathe his newest versions. If a want to read about a conceited jerk, who is capable in everything, I will read about BatGod from the early 2000s. Don't get me wrong, I like Batman, but when he is in "The Goddamn Batman" mode, he is kinda ridiculous. I loved the real Tim humble and slightly introvert personality. He had self-doubts and flaws, like everyone else. He felt like a real person, who had real-world problems.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Obligatory "Timion" Collage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit to not reading much of the New 52 Teen Titans. In what I did read (his new origin included) he came off as a rather generic leader psuedo-Robin. The over-the-top hacker bits of the New 52 that I've read are all from the current 'Tec scribe.


I've never seen "Timion " before. It's brilliant and I may use it in future. Seeing all those panels together was painful though.

I really liked old school Tim. Rebirth Tim is better than NuTim but by a tiny degree. Can anyone thing of a good way to bring back his old character? Would another everyman work now that we have Duke?

----------


## Pohzee

> I've never seen "Timion " before. It's brilliant and I may use it in future. Seeing all those panels together was painful though.
> 
> I really liked old school Tim. Rebirth Tim is better than NuTim but by a tiny degree. Can anyone thing of a good way to bring back his old character? Would another everyman work now that we have Duke?


With Duke *spoilers:*
developing superpowers
*end of spoilers*and having a significant role in DC: Metal, I think that that role will soon be open.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> With Duke *spoilers:*
> developing superpowers
> *end of spoilers*and having a significant role in DC: Metal, I think that that role will soon be open.


Holy crap. I stopped following All Star Batman and I missed all that. I though All Star was too expensive for the quality of writing, yet I'm still buying 'Tec for some reason. What sort of *spoilers:*
powers 
*end of spoilers* if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I've never seen "Timion " before. It's brilliant and I may use it in future. Seeing all those panels together was painful though.
> 
> I really liked old school Tim. Rebirth Tim is better than NuTim but by a tiny degree. Can anyone thing of a good way to bring back his old character? Would another everyman work now that we have Duke?


Absolutely, nobody cares about Duke. I don't think anyone besides his creator is really expecting that kid to take off anymore, that ship has sailed. Put a well written Tim next to him and Tim is the superior hero to 90% of fans.

----------


## Pohzee

> Holy crap. I stopped following All Star Batman and I missed all that. I though All Star was too expensive for the quality of writing, yet I'm still buying 'Tec for some reason. What sort of *spoilers:*
> powers 
> *end of spoilers* if you don't mind me asking?


Kinda hard to tell based off the one-page cliffhanger that leads into Dark Days, *spoilers:*
but it seems like some kind of supervision or sonar.
*end of spoilers*

I'm sure there's a scan on the ASB or Duke Appreciation threads. I saw it online first.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Absolutely, nobody cares about Duke. I don't think anyone besides his creator is really expecting that kid to take off anymore, that ship has sailed. Put a well written Tim next to him and Tim is the superior hero to 90% of fans.


The problem is getting a well written Tim. It's been years since we've had a likable Tim. Tynion is a huge Tim fanboy but he double downed on the almighty tech god super genius Tim. I had hoped he'd try and restore his old character. Plus, I think people are warming to Duke. 




> Kinda hard to tell based off the one-page cliffhanger that leads into Dark Days, *spoilers:*
> but it seems like some kind of supervision or sonar.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> I'm sure there's a scan on the ASB or Duke Appreciation threads. I saw it online first.


Great thanks for that. I prefer if the Batfam don't have powers but it is kind of interesting.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The problem is getting a well written Tim. It's been years since we've had a likable Tim. Tynion is a huge Tim fanboy but he double downed on the almighty tech god super genius Tim. I had hoped he'd try and restore his old character. Plus, I think people are warming to Duke. 
> 
> 
> 
> Great thanks for that. I prefer if the Batfam don't have powers but it is kind of interesting.


Warming to Duke? What makes you think that?

I think you're downplaying the progress made with Drake in 'Tec. No one thinks it's perfect but he comes off as a sweet guy for the first time in years as opposed to an insufferable jerk. He treats his teammates well and is only abrasive towards the villains, which is understandable. If this is exactly how Tim is going to be from now on, that's bad. If it's just the first step towards fixing his character, that's fine.

----------


## Atlanta96

Here's that tweet I mentioned earlier, by the way. I think I explained it properly.

IMG_9787.jpg

----------


## Korath

> Absolutely, nobody cares about Duke. I don't think anyone besides his creator is really expecting that kid to take off anymore, that ship has sailed. Put a well written Tim next to him and Tim is the superior hero to 90% of fans.


Bullshit. You hate it, and have decided to hate him from the get go. Stop spewing your hatred of him everywhere, every time someone mention him, thank you very much.

----------


## Aioros22

> Warming to Duke? What makes you think that?.


I don`t know, how about in this forum you having an apreciation Thread and him showcasing in big stories? You really think it`s impossible nobody is warming up to him? You really think using a fallacy argument of "nobody likes him" can carry on a debate with any sort of weight whatsoever wthout coming up as pretentious?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Bullshit. You hate it, and have decided to hate him from the get go. Stop spewing your hatred of him everywhere, every time someone mention him, thank you very much.


LOL, I don't know if you were reading these boards at the time but I did say I was willing to give Duke a chance at the beginning of Rebirth. It wasn't until I read the first issue of All Star Batman that I started to hate the little annoyance. So once again, U R wrong  :Smile: 

If DC didn't want us to hate that kid they should've handled his introduction better. You have no one but them to blame for all the negativity.

----------


## Aioros22

Outside of fandom wars, where is "all the negativity?"

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don`t know, how about in this forum you having an apreciation Thread and him showcasing in big stories? You really think it`s impossible nobody is warming up to him? You really think using a fallacy argument of "nobody likes him" can carry on a debate with any sort of weight whatsoever wthout coming up as pretentious?


There's a poll on these boards showing that less than 10 percent of fans actually like Duke. The majority are indifferent and a good 1/3 of us dislike him. Truth is, his actual fans are a tiny minority of all readers up against an entire fan base who doesn't give a damn




> Outside of fandom wars, where is "all the negativity?"


And I ask you, where is the love for this character? >10% is a pretty small percentage of fans, and these boards are very progressive so the actual number is probably lower.

But anyway, back to Tim, back to Tim. Anyone think Seeley or King would be open to writing Tim's next solo? I haven't seen them speak very passionately about him but maybe that's a good thing, at the moment either of them are my top picks.

----------


## Aioros22

And that "poll" surely counts with everyone participating and giving their due. 

There`s no "everybody". *You* hate him. Others wil too and some others won`t. Move on and stop being that guy.

----------


## Atlanta96

> And that "poll" surely counts with everyone participating and giving their due. 
> 
> There`s no "everybody". *You* hate him. Others wil too and some others won`t. Move on and stop being that guy.


Not a chance  :Smile: 

Funny how people only accept polls as legit when the outcome is convenient for them. Somehow I think you'd take it a bit more seriously if you liked the results  :Smile:

----------


## Jadeb

I don't hate Duke, but I hate post 52 Tim, including Tynion's Tim. And Tim is my favorite character. That's messed up.

Duke wins just by not being awful, which is a sad state of affairs.

----------


## KrustyKid

The problem with Post Flashpoint Tim(outside of his new origin) is the fact they keep slapping him in these team books. So instead of us getting a Tim who could be explored for all his capabilities, we're getting him feeling a role. With TT, generic leader type. With Tec, the gadgets master. Tim is the only one who has suffered from this in the Bat-Family for the past six years. We wouldn't have this problem if he had his own solo. I am almost certain about that.

I think we can all agree on that.

----------


## Aioros22

> Not a chance 
> 
> Funny how people only accept polls as legit when the outcome is convenient for them. Somehow I think you'd take it a bit more seriously if you liked the results


One poll in one online forum which doesn`t count with the participation of every user of the same is not legit to determine an absolute quantifier. Not here, not in politics, not anywhere. 

You`re free to hate him but don`t fall in the illusion of speaking for "everyone"  :Wink:

----------


## ayanestar

> I don't hate Duke, but I hate post 52 Tim, including Tynion's Tim. And Tim is my favorite character. That's messed up.
> 
> Duke wins just by not being awful, which is a sad state of affairs.


I couldn't care less about Duke but he is here now and he is staying. He has been around for a while and there are actually fans who like him and want to read more about him. But of course he is a new character and has to deal with angry fans of certain fandoms who think their own opinion and only their favorite characters matter. It is always the same with fans, it's like it is impossible to imagine someone could care about a new character more than their own favorite. Anyway his character development was slow, nothing compared to "fan favorite" Harper but now he is at least getting the push he needed like the new Wally. The only problem I have with Duke is that the Batman franchise is already filled with so many characters and fans who demand every single one of them back. Duke had a way better start than the new Wally, he is actually not a bad characters and has potential. I see more and more fans who are curious about him so certain fans will have to move on and accept the fact that he will stay around. 




> The problem with Post Flashpoint Tim(outside of his new origin) is the fact they keep slapping him in these team books. So instead of us getting a Tim who could be explored for all his capabilities, we're getting him feeling a role. With TT, generic leader type. With Tec, the gadgets master. Tim is the only one who has suffered from this in the Bat-Family for the past six years. We wouldn't have this problem if he had his own solo. I am almost certain about that.


What Tim needed was a new start and Rebirth would have been perfect for it but instead we still have to deal with some consequences of the New 52 but it's not like Tim is the only one. Dick used to have the same problem and his fandom is still divided about the direction they wish for him but DC also seems to have a problem with Tim - he is either the perfect, arrogant and most smartest person on the planet or he is a normal, nice kid who is a great detective. It's like they can't think of anything new for him. They go from one extreme to another one with him. I get the computer angle they are pushing for him but everyone in Batman can suddenly create some new toy or hack into something if the story requires it. It is the same problem I have with the detective angle, everyone in the family is good at it and even if Tim is the best it's still not enough to make him shine. I liked him as Robin, he was never my favorite but I enjoyed reading his stories. His Red Robin solo wasn't as good as I had hoped but it wasn't bad either. 
That's why I agree with you. Tim needs a solo or at least a mini story with a good creative team to push him into the right direction and add something new to make him appeal to new readers and to make him stick out between all the other Bat characters. Right now I wouldn't waste any money on him but I really hope DC have planned something for him.

----------


## Aahz

> The problem with Post Flashpoint Tim(outside of his new origin) is the fact they keep slapping him in these team books. So instead of us getting a Tim who could be explored for all his capabilities, we're getting him feeling a role. With TT, generic leader type. With Tec, the gadgets master. Tim is the only one who has suffered from this in the Bat-Family for the past six years. We wouldn't have this problem if he had his own solo. I am almost certain about that.
> 
> I think we can all agree on that.


It is really time that he gets a solo again, I hope he is the next in line to get one, that they are not again trying a Batwing or Azrael solo or something similar instead.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The problem with Post Flashpoint Tim(outside of his new origin) is the fact they keep slapping him in these team books. So instead of us getting a Tim who could be explored for all his capabilities, we're getting him feeling a role. With TT, generic leader type. With Tec, the gadgets master. Tim is the only one who has suffered from this in the Bat-Family for the past six years. We wouldn't have this problem if he had his own solo. I am almost certain about that.
> 
> I think we can all agree on that.


Yeah, I don't know if there's company bias against giving Tim a solo or it just never came to be, but keeping a major character like Tim stuck in supporting roles for this long was a big mistake. As far as I can tell he didn't even have any major story arcs focusing on him.




> I couldn't care less about Duke but he is here now and he is staying. He has been around for a while and there are actually fans who like him and want to read more about him. But of course he is a new character and has to deal with angry fans of certain fandoms who think their own opinion and only their favorite characters matter. It is always the same with fans, it's like it is impossible to imagine someone could care about a new character more than their own favorite. Anyway his character development was slow, nothing compared to "fan favorite" Harper but now he is at least getting the push he needed like the new Wally. The only problem I have with Duke is that the Batman franchise is already filled with so many characters and fans who demand every single one of them back. Duke had a way better start than the new Wally, he is actually not a bad characters and has potential. I see more and more fans who are curious about him so certain fans will have to move on and accept the fact that he will stay around.


LOL if by "stay around" you mean he will continue to exist in the DCU no one is denying that. If you mean he will become a major character you're probably wrong. The difference between Duke and everyone else is that he isn't written like a human being. He's a creators pet with zero personality who was designed to be as commercially appealing as possible. Notice how many new character trends they incorporated into him? The modernized costume, the diversity angle, the inoffensive characterization, he's the Nickleback of superheroes. He was designed to be extremely popular with zero effort or creativity, and will only end up being hated for it in the end.

There's no love for this character the way there is for Jon Kent, or even Nu Wally West who I don't even like. Most of his defenders are apologists as opposed to fans, people who feel bad for him and WANT him to be good as opposed to actually thinking he's good. They should name this character Fetch because no matter how hard they try, he's never going to happen.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Outside of fandom wars, where is "all the negativity?"


There is NONE. It's really indifference to him.

All this We hate Duke charge lead by Tim & Damian fans will result in the same lesson X-Men, Ted Kord, Rich Ryder & Hal Jordan fans are learning now. Not everyone cares about your favorite & folks remember your behavior towards others. Enjoy those low or mediocre sales or in Nova's case cancellation.

Duke did not write a badly done run of Teen Titans where Tim had to deal with nonstop death.
Duke did not screw up the rights and royalties of Conner & Static.
Duke did was not the writer of badly done New 52 & DC You Teen Titans runs.
Duke did not have Tim removed for Rebirth
Duke did not screw up Damian, Stephanie, Cassandra, Dick Grayson, Wally West, all his friends or Jason Rusch.

The above falls on the heads of the very guys everyone worships for Rebirth. Ask them how a guy with over 190 solo issues & 3 mini-not to mention merchandise gets screwed over so much? 

Not sit up and insult or question intelligence of anyone reading a book with Duke.
Not call for boycotts (yes I have seen those calls)

----------


## Atlanta96

> There is NONE. It's really indifference to him.
> 
> All this We hate Duke charge lead by Tim & Damian fans will result in the same lesson X-Men, Ted Kord, Rich Ryder & Hal Jordan fans are learning now. Not everyone cares about your favorite & folks remember your behavior towards others. Enjoy those low or mediocre sales or in Nova's case cancellation.
> 
> Duke did not write a badly done run of Teen Titans where Tim had to deal with nonstop death.
> Duke did not screw up the rights and royalties of Conner & Static.
> Duke did was not the writer of badly done New 52 & DC You Teen Titans runs.
> Duke did not have Tim removed for Rebirth
> Duke did not screw up Damian, Stephanie, Cassandra, Dick Grayson, Wally West, all his friends or Jason Rusch.
> ...


So is it "There is no real negativity towards Duke" or is it "People hate Duke so much they're insulting his fans and calling for boycotts". You contradicted yourself a little.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I don't mind Tim being an "everyman" but everyman characters tend to be written in a generic way because they are meant to be easy to slide into. As I got older I got more interested in characters who are more "specific" and fleshed out than the blank slate everymen. The ironic thing is I feel I can relate to characters who are more filled in than those aren't.

So I rather he be more distinct and "relatable" than an everyman.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink:   :Wink:   :Wink: 

1. p_r_o_p_s_by_colours07-d3ay8h6.jpg

2. p_r_o_p_s_by_colours07-d3ay8h6.jpg

3. p_r_o_p_s_by_colours07-d3ay8h6.jpg

----------


## skyvolt2000

> So is it "There is no real negativity towards Duke" or is it "People hate Duke so much they're insulting his fans and calling for boycotts". You contradicted yourself a little.





No one else has any real feelings towards him. It's indifference but many are tired of Tim Drake fans attacking a character that has NOTHING to do with the damage done to Tim.

Tim was being screwed over since Batman's son showed up. Yet where is the constant rage for Damian? Who died and came back and got a solo and now leads Teen Titans.

Stephanie Brown fans went after who caused the downfall of her as did Cassandra Cain and Dick Grayson-Dan, Jim Lee & Johns.

They did not attack other characters or insult other fans.

The issue should be with management not Snyder or King. It's not them screwing with Tim. It was taken out of their hands by Johns.


Go after who is the source of the issue not Duke.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No one else has any real feelings towards him. It's indifference but many are tired of Tim Drake fans attacking a character that has NOTHING to do with the damage done to Tim.
> 
> Tim was being screwed over since Batman's son showed up. Yet where is the constant rage for Damian? Who died and came back and got a solo and now leads Teen Titans.
> 
> Stephanie Brown fans went after who caused the downfall of her as did Cassandra Cain and Dick Grayson-Dan, Jim Lee & Johns.
> 
> They did not attack other characters or insult other fans.
> 
> The issue should be with management not Snyder or King. It's not them screwing with Tim. It was taken out of their hands by Johns.
> ...


Please stop pretending Duke isn't overtly similar to Tim, it's not that hard to see. As long as Duke is getting a push, he's filling a spot that anyone in the Family but especially Tim could have taken. This is an era of struggling characters, even Dick has it tough. For anyone who wants the BatFamily to shine, appear in events, and be relevant to the Batman line, Duke is the enemy.

----------


## godisawesome

_I'm_ tired of people trying to rag on Duke in the Tim Drake thread, and I'm the one who started the thing! I may not care much about the character, but he's not "the enemy." He's a new IP operating on a still so what crazy time for Batman properties. Can we please not make this the "moaning and groaning about Duke" thread?



> I don't mind Tim being an "everyman" but everyman characters tend to be written in a generic way because they are meant to be easy to slide into. As I got older I got more interested in characters who are more "specific" and fleshed out than the blank slate everymen. The ironic thing is I feel I can relate to characters who are more filled in than those aren't.
> 
> So I rather he be more distinct and "relatable" than an everyman.


That's one of the reasons why I like Tim from the latter part of the Robin solo and the entirety of the Red Robin book; they started making him more distinct and unique while trying to keep the relatable personality and internal monologue going. Tim had flaws spawned from the effects of editorial's unintentional purge of his family and friends, and while the purge still sucked, the development of Tim's pragmatism and desire to use more intellectual tactics and strategies worked _really_ well. 

Tim started making compromises, but the logic behind the compromises was strong, if ethically debateable: release Lynx from imprisonment so that she could sabotage and compromise the entire Golden Dragon organization from the inside, raze and compromise the Unternet by unleashing a well-meaning anarchist on it, co-opt youth gangs into community assets, and targeting the infrastructure of the Underworld as a whole, even if it meant allowing periphery criminals to operate. It was a characterization that gave Tim some evident vices and virtues, and that was fascinating!

----------


## Pohzee

> In Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" you may recall the description of the Man with the Muck Rake, the man who could look no way but downward, with the muck rake in his hand; who was offered a celestial crown for his muck rake, but who would neither look up nor regard the crown he was offered, but continued to rake to himself the filth of the floor.
> 
> In "Pilgrim's Progress" the Man with the Muck Rake is set forth as the example of him whose vision is fixed on carnal instead of spiritual things. Yet he also typifies the man who in this life consistently refuses to see aught that is lofty, and fixes his eyes with solemn intentness only on that which is vile and debasing.
> 
> Now, it is very necessary that we should not flinch from seeing what is vile and debasing. There is filth on the floor, and it must be scraped up with the muck rake; and there are times and places where this service is the most needed of all the services that can be performed. But the man who never does anything else, who never thinks or speaks or writes, save of his feats with the muck rake, speedily becomes, not a help but one of the most potent forces for evil.


-Theodore Roosevelt

----------


## KrustyKid

> No one else has any real feelings towards him. It's indifference but many are tired of Tim Drake fans attacking a character that has NOTHING to do with the damage done to Tim.
> 
> Tim was being screwed over since Batman's son showed up. Yet where is the constant rage for Damian? Who died and came back and got a solo and now leads Teen Titans.
> 
> Stephanie Brown fans went after who caused the downfall of her as did Cassandra Cain and Dick Grayson-Dan, Jim Lee & Johns.
> 
> They did not attack other characters or insult other fans.
> 
> The issue should be with management not Snyder or King. It's not them screwing with Tim. It was taken out of their hands by Johns.
> ...


Tim Drake fans attacking Duke? I'm pretty sure Atlanta96 is the only Tim fan on this forum who has voiced a strong dislike for Duke. I love Tim, and I personally don't mind Duke myself.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Please stop pretending Duke isn't overtly similar to Tim, it's not that hard to see. As long as Duke is getting a push, he's filling a spot that anyone in the Family but especially Tim could have taken. This is an era of struggling characters, even Dick has it tough. For anyone who wants the BatFamily to shine, appear in events, and be relevant to the Batman line, Duke is the enemy.


Tim is far past the rookie at Batman's side though. Duke is the only one in the fam who can fill that job title. I hardly see how Tim would fit into that role without completely regressing him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim Drake fans attacking Duke? I'm pretty sure Atlanta96 is the only Tim fan on this forum who has voiced a strong dislike for Duke. I love Tim, and I personally don't mind Duke myself.


I don't want to name names but there's a few others. I'll admit to being by far the most openly hostile to the character, but saying others aren't doing it is an exaggeration.




> Tim is far past the rookie at Batman's side though. Duke is the only one in the fam who can fill that job title. I hardly see how Tim would fit into that role without completely regressing him.


You're splitting hairs. They have a nearly identical characterization and are only set apart by a few superficial traits. Saying he cant be a Tim ripoff because he's a rookie (despite being a vigilante for a year or more by now) is a bit misleading.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't want to name names but there's a few others. I'll admit to being by far the most openly hostile to the character, but saying others aren't doing it is an exaggeration.


A majority of fans seem more indifferent to Duke than anything from what I noticed(not just Tim fans). Not much hate or notable love. At least that's what I gathered.

----------


## Atlanta96

> A majority of fans seem more indifferent to Duke than anything from what I noticed(not just Tim fans). Not much hate or notable love. At least that's what I gathered.


You'd be right. According to the poll that you yourself started, over half of fans are indifferent and a good 1/3 dislike him. I don't know what percent of fans dislike Tim or Damian or Dick, but I'm pretty sure more than 10% like those guys. Which is more than can be said for Duke.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't want to name names but there's a few others. I'll admit to being by far the most openly hostile to the character, but saying others aren't doing it is an exaggeration.
> 
> 
> 
> You're splitting hairs. They have a nearly identical characterization and are only set apart by a few superficial traits. Saying he cant be a Tim ripoff because he's a rookie (despite being a vigilante for a year or more by now) is a bit misleading.


So tell me, what role is Duke filling that you feel Tim should be? That's the part I'm confused about. I do agree, personality wise Duke is quite similar to Tim when he was first created. But let's not kid ourselves, Tim hasn't been like that for a long time. Can we even say we know Tim's personality right now? Between Teen Titans and now Rebirth his personality has been up and down like a roller coaster fruit rush shake, lol

----------


## The Whovian

> A majority of fans seem more indifferent to Duke than anything from what I noticed(not just Tim fans). Not much hate or notable love. At least that's what I gathered.


You must not come to this forum that often then. Most Batman and Robin fans absolutely hate Duke.

----------


## KrustyKid

> You must not come to this forum that often then. Most Batman and Robin fans absolutely hate Duke.


I was't just referring to these forums, but rather in general. I've seen many comments about Duke on several sites. He certainly has his haters. But as do Tim, Damian, and even Jason. Dick has his haters too(they're just not as vocal as the others).

----------


## Atlanta96

> So tell me, what role is Duke filling that you feel Tim should be? That's the part I'm confused about. I do agree, personality wise Duke is quite similar to Tim when he was first created. But let's not kid ourselves, Tim hasn't been like that for a long time. Can we even say we know Tim's personality right now? Between Teen Titans and now Rebirth his personality has been up and down like a roller coaster fruit rush shake, lol


So you yourself admit that Duke is basically a retread of Tim when he was first created. Thanks for being honest I guess.

Here's where the problem is. Most of the changes to Tim since the New 52 have been pretty bad, at best. The logical method of fixing his character would be to restore the traits that made him likable, work him back into his old self, and build on him from there. Now, how are they supposed to make Tim more like his old self if bloody Duke is already covering those traits?

Writers don't want 2 of the same guy running around, it's harder for Tim to go back to being the smart mild mannered everyman when that little annoyance has that covered. If Duke succeeds Tim will either A) Be downplayed in the Bat-books for another eternity, or B) Be stuck with his New 52 characterization forever.

Sorry but sometimes, you can't root for everyone.

----------


## Assam

> I was't just referring to these forums, but rather in general. I've seen many comments about Duke on several sites. He certainly has his haters. But as do Tim, Damian, and even Jason.


I find it hilarious how the guy who the fans chose to kill probably has the fewest haters these days out him, Duke, Damian, and Tim. 




> Dick has his haters too(they're just not as vocal as the others)


Eh. I was pretty vocal about my hate for him when that's what I felt. Even now I don't exactly hide my general dislike.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> So you yourself admit that Duke is basically a retread of Tim when he was first created. Thanks for being honest I guess.
> 
> Here's where the problem is. Most of the changes to Tim since the New 52 have been pretty bad, at best. The logical method of fixing his character would be to restore the traits that made him likable, work him back into his old self, and build on him from there. Now, how are they supposed to make Tim more like his old self if bloody Duke is already covering those traits?
> 
> Writers don't want 2 of the same guy running around, it's harder for Tim to go back to being the smart mild mannered everyman when that little annoyance has that covered. If Duke succeeds Tim will either A) Be downplayed in the Bat-books for another eternity, or B) Be stuck with his New 52 characterization forever.
> 
> Sorry but sometimes, you can't root for everyone.


Yea, the New-52 changes were so bad. Tim's personality ranks tops for what went wrong with the character.

Personality wise, how do you want Tim to be written if you don't mind me asking? Duke seems more like an early on Tim(not as nerdy). But Duke is nothing like the Tim who we saw in the Red Robin series. That's the personality/+intelligence level I'd want for Tim if I had the choice(with the history attached for how he got to that point of course).

If they decide to go that route I don't see how the two couldn't coexist. The New-52 characterization of Tim needs to go, I've seen enough of that badly scripted and poorly casted movie.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I find it hilarious how the guy who the fans chose to kill probably has the fewest haters these days out him, Duke, Damian, and Tim. 
> 
> 
> 
> Eh. I was pretty vocal about my hate for him when that's what I felt. Even now I don't exactly hide my general dislike.


True, but as a whole I see far less Grayson haters compared to the other robin boys throughout the web.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yea, the New-52 changes were so bad. Tim's personality ranks tops for what went wrong with the character.
> 
> Personality wise, how do you want Tim to be written if you don't mind me asking? Duke seems more like an early on Tim(not as nerdy). But Duke is nothing like the Tim who we saw in the Red Robin series. That's the personality/+intelligence level I'd want for Tim if I had the choice(with the history attached for how he got to that point of course).
> 
> If they decide to go that route I don't see how the two couldn't coexist. The New-52 characterization of Tim needs to go, I've seen enough of that badly scripted and poorly casted movie.


I'd say pre-Identity Crisis Tim is the best way to go. More experienced than 90s Tim, but easier to adapt into new character roles than Red Robin Tim. The original RR persona was very specific to what was going on at the time and can't just be dropped into any situation, so pre-IC Tim it is.




> True, but as a whole I see far less Grayson haters compared to the other robin boys throughout the web.


Me too, I think Dick is the most well liked overall. He's got so many versions that almost everyone has at least 1 that works for them. Silver Age, leader of Titans, TT cartoon, Agent 37, DickBats, Nightwing of Budhaven, a Grayson for every conceivable taste.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'd say pre-Identity Crisis Tim is the best way to go. More experienced than 90s Tim, but easier to adapt into new character roles than Red Robin Tim. The original RR persona was very specific to what was going on at the time and can't just be dropped into any situation, so pre-IC Tim it is.


Can't argue that. You make a good point. Just as long as it's not the New-52 personality, we'll all be happy.

----------


## KrustyKid

Ladies and the boys,

LandB.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Counting only their time as Robin, my money would be on Dick. Damian for the close second.

request__108_robin_battle_royale_by_lukealanbundesen-db6wv8p.jpg

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...46043758579713

----------


## KrustyKid

> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...46043758579713


Lol, gotta love the light trolling

----------


## Assam

> Counting only their time as Robin, my money would be on Dick. Damian for the close second.
> 
> Attachment 48598


Counting only their times as Robin, their at the time personalities ALSO intact,  this is how I'd say it would go: 

Jason goes after Dick and Damian goes after Tim. Steph stays by Tim. 

Basically being equal fighters, Dick beats Jason using his FAR superior brains. (People tend to forget that Dick was known as the master strategist before Tim came along) Individually, RobinDamian would SLAUGHTER RobinTim and RobinSteph, but with all the times they'd worked together prior to Steph becoming Robin, and Tim at this point still being "I'm a pretty smart kid" as opposed to, "LOOK AT ALL MY BUTTONS, GUYS," I think the two could pull it off. 

Steph gets worried as the two are exhausted, and Dick, in much better condition now running at them in scaled panties. However, its my belief that each Robin is a better fighter than the previous one during their time as Robin. So, despite their weaker conditions, I think the two can win. 

Down to those two, they're both barely able to move...so Steph flashes herself, and as we all saw in Red Robin, Tim gets freaked out by breasts. While he's stunned, Steph musters up the strength for a knockout punch, taking the win. 

Steph wins. 

You may say that my ending is ridiculous. However, I'd argue that "Battle scenarios" shouldn't be taken too seriously, and so it's fitting.

----------


## CPSparkles

Drake and Lil'Wayne

----------


## CPSparkles

> Counting only their time as Robin, my money would be on Dick. Damian for the close second.
> 
> Attachment 48598


Robin Damian is in a different league compared to all the rest when they were Robin. It's not even a question. That's pretty basic.

I would rank em
Damian









Dick
Tim
Jason
steph

Now considering it's a death battle it then becomes even more moot.

----------


## Atlanta96

That's part of what made Tim such a good everyman character, he's just as freaked out by a hot girls breasts as the average reader.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Counting only their times as Robin, their at the time personalities ALSO intact,  this is how I'd say it would go: 
> 
> Jason goes after Dick and Damian goes after Tim. Steph stays by Tim. 
> 
> Basically being equal fighters, Dick beats Jason using his FAR superior brains. (People tend to forget that Dick was known as the master strategist before Tim came along) Individually, RobinDamian would SLAUGHTER RobinTim and RobinSteph, but with all the times they'd worked together prior to Steph becoming Robin, and Tim at this point still being "I'm a pretty smart kid" as opposed to, "LOOK AT ALL MY BUTTONS, GUYS," I think the two could pull it off. 
> 
> Steph gets worried as the two are exhausted, and Dick, in much better condition now running at them in scaled panties. However, its my belief that each Robin is a better fighter than the previous one during their time as Robin. So, despite their weaker conditions, I think the two can win. 
> 
> Down to those two, they're both barely able to move...so Steph flashes herself, and as we all saw in Red Robin, Tim gets freaked out by breasts. While he's stunned, Steph musters up the strength for a knockout punch, taking the win. 
> ...


Dick still is a *master strategist*. He's far better than Tim when it comes to on field strategy.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Robin Damian is in a different league compared to all the rest when they were Robin. It's not even a question. That's pretty basic.
> 
> I would rank em
> Damian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, Damian is far better than any of the others in pure skill. Though I'd still favor Dick over Damian in a match like this for three reasons; superior athletic ability, more level headed, and a better strategist.

I don't think it would take much for Dick to get in Damian's head, which would probably play into his attack. Steph and Jason would go down first. Tim's smarts along with his proficiency with the bo would keep him in it for a bit, but he too would eventually fall. Which would end with Dick v Damian. Which I believe Dick would take the tiny majority.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I agree, Damian is far better than any of the others in pure skill. Though I'd still favor Dick over Damian in a match like this for three reasons; superior athletic ability, more level headed, and a better strategist.
> 
> I don't think it would take much for Dick to get in Damian's head, which would probably play into his attack. Steph and Jason would go down first. Tim's smarts along with his proficiency with the bo would keep him in it for a bit, but he too would eventually fall. Which would end with Dick v Damian. Which I believe Dick would take the tiny majority.


Yes Steph and Jason will be the first to drop Tim I'm reconsidering now because he is quite cunning and detached in a way not that he would/could kill but I think that he might have the edge over Robin Dick.

----------


## Vinsanity

> That's part of what made Tim such a good everyman character, he's just as freaked out by a hot girls breasts as the average reader.


I wouldn't call that everyman though. Just saying.

----------


## CPSparkles

> That's part of what made Tim such a good everyman character, he's just as freaked out by a hot girls breasts as the average reader.


Well with Duke now a meta he is no longer such an everyman. In fact the batfamily doesn't really have an everyman.
Maybe Dick. Aside from the sexy he is the most regular him, Steph and Jason are the only ones who aren't prodigy's or exceptional.

Tim isn't an everyman nor does he need to be. The fact that he was such a blank slate and an insert character is what ended up making him so superfluous in the end. He need's character and distinction and everyman types rarely have those.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well with Duke now a meta he is no longer such an everyman. In fact the batfamily doesn't really have an everyman.
> Maybe Dick. Aside from the sexy he is the most regular him, Steph and Jason are the only ones who aren't prodigy's or exceptional.
> 
> Tim isn't an everyman nor does he need to be. The fact that he was such a blank slate and an insert character is what ended up making him so superfluous in the end. He need's character and distinction and everyman types rarely have those.


Where to start...

1. Tim was never a blank slate. Please read up on the character.

2. Saying an everyman can't have character and distinction is like saying no normal person has character and distinction.

3. Duke being a metahuman in no way prevents him from being an everyman. He's still very much a Tim ripoff.

4. Dick is far from an everyman. He's an inhumanly charismatic ladies-man who lacks a relatable backstory or personality. He's very much his own thing.

5. Tim was never a blank slate. That bears repeating.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I wouldn't call that everyman though. Just saying.


You're right, most guys would be on the opposite end of that specter. lol

----------


## Assam

> You're right, most guys would be on the opposite end of that specter. lol


Or, you know...aren't into girls. (I assume you know what they meant and were just joking but still)

----------


## CPSparkles

> Where to start...
> 
> 1. Tim was never a blank slate. Please read up on the character.
> 
> 2. Saying an everyman can't have character and distinction is like saying no normal person has character and distinction.
> 
> 3. Duke being a metahuman in no way prevents him from being an everyman. He's still very much a Tim ripoff.
> 
> 4. Dick is far from an everyman. He's an inhumanly charismatic ladies-man who lacks a relatable backstory or personality. He's very much his own thing.
> ...


Why do you assume I need to read up on Tim? I don't. Tim started out as a blank slate and until the new 52 was still very much an insert character. Of all the boys he is the one who lacks distinction sure sometime after he was itroduced his character started to pick up some character but he still lacked distinction a fact which fans like yourself have admitted on this very thread. 

You yourself have said how with the addition of Damian that Tim  needs some arrogance and needs some edge to make him more distinct. You've said this more than once so don't flip flop.

Everyman  character's do have some character but that character is generic. Generic isn't going to cut it for Tim as the family is bigger and larger character's have entered the field.

Yes Duke is a Timripoff and always will be though now that he is a meta he's no longer that much of an everyman but he is still 90% more everyman than Tim.

Dick is an everyman he is more everyman than Olympic gymnast, 16 years old walking deus ex machina Tim. The world is full of sexy, confident, super charismatic 20 something year old ladies men. I meet them everyday at work.

Tim's backstory is even less relatable than Dick's.
I used to find Tim most relatable but last few years Damian has been the most relatable for me.

Yes Tim Drake started as a blank slate. He was designed as a self insert for the reader.

I am not a fan of Duke but we're stuck with him at least until Synder leaves DC and as long as Synder is around he will keep shoving him. The best thing for Tim is find a new angle no point living in the past things have changed and we should just roll with it.

----------


## Assam

This is just an idea for a story I've gotten from reading through this convo, and one that would have to be handled VERY delicately, for after Tim returns: 

What if, following whatever event leads to his freedom, Tim gets brain damage? He'd still be able to function properly for the most part, but he wouldn't be a genius anymore. This would lead him to a sort of meta introspection where, now living a city FILLED with better fighters and more dynamic personalities,  he has to figure out who Tim Drake is if not "the smart one." 

By the end of the story, I'd have him be slowly recovering, setting him back to being a really smart kid, and not a complete genius, with Tim growing as a person and picking up some new traits, ideally based on little things throughout his history.

----------


## CPSparkles

> This is just an idea for a story I've gotten from reading through this convo, and one that would have to be handled VERY delicately, for after Tim returns: 
> 
> What if, following whatever event leads to his freedom, Tim gets brain damage? He'd still be able to function properly for the most part, but he wouldn't be a genius anymore. This would lead him to a sort of meta introspection where, now living a city FILLED with better fighters and more dynamic personalities,  he has to figure out who Tim Drake is if not "the smart one." 
> 
> By the end of the story, I'd have him be slowly recovering, setting him back to being a really smart kid, and not a complete genius, with Tim growing as a person and picking up some new traits, ideally based on little things throughout his history.


Don't want him to get brain damaged. I know that current Tim is frustrating with the silly button pushing but if he lost his smarts, is surrounded by more dynamic personalities and better fighters that would really suck. It would do nothing much for the character. I think they just need to tone it down on the super smarts and magic buttons. A bit less of his cringe worthy boasts and make him just a bit more flawed. 

I don't mind him arrogant but make him a bit more Damian Wayne type arrogant. You know funny and witty with it. Bring back his scarcasm and humanise him more and have him mix more with the rest of the boys. Plus bringing back his friends. Steph is a starting point but he needs more.

Hiting the reset button won't work. Thing's were different when Tim was introduced what worked then isn't going to work now but i do like the idea of restoring and exploring his history.

----------


## btmarine23

Maybe Tynion has him right where he belongs for now…safe from editorial or himself…so many Robins.  I love them all but they need to stop killing them and then creating new ones and then bringing back to life the dead ones.   I don't wish anyone ill will but please get rid of Duke…there is absolutely no room or point to that character when we have some existing great characters spread out over 7? books and still not enough room.  I feel like Duke is taking a spot (or at least pages) of a perfectly legit character that has a near 30? year history.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Maybe Tynion has him right where he belongs for now…safe from editorial or himself…so many Robins.  I love them all but they need to stop killing them and then creating new ones and then bringing back to life the dead ones.   I don't wish anyone ill will but please get rid of Duke…there is absolutely no room or point to that character when we have some existing great characters spread out over 7? books and still not enough room.  I feel like Duke is taking a spot (or at least pages) of a perfectly legit character that has a near 30? year history.


Stop hating on Duke he is a brilliant and complex character and he is revolutionizing the Bat-books with his presence. Only those who have decided to hate him from the start would disagree.

LOL, seriously though I totally agree with you. There is such thing as too many characters, there comes a point where everyone should stop with the new creations and give everyone else some breathing room. I can't respect a writer who looks at the bloated Bat-books and thinks "MORE MORE MORE!!!".

----------


## Atlanta96

> Why do you assume I need to read up on Tim? I don't. Tim started out as a blank slate and until the new 52 was still very much an insert character. Of all the boys he is the one who lacks distinction sure sometime after he was itroduced his character started to pick up some character but he still lacked distinction a fact which fans like yourself have admitted on this very thread. 
> 
> You yourself have said how with the addition of Damian that Tim  needs some arrogance and needs some edge to make him more distinct. You've said this more than once so don't flip flop.
> 
> Everyman  character's do have some character but that character is generic. Generic isn't going to cut it for Tim as the family is bigger and larger character's have entered the field.
> 
> Yes Duke is a Timripoff and always will be though now that he is a meta he's no longer that much of an everyman but he is still 90% more everyman than Tim.
> 
> Dick is an everyman he is more everyman than Olympic gymnast, 16 years old walking deus ex machina Tim. The world is full of sexy, confident, super charismatic 20 something year old ladies men. I meet them everyday at work.
> ...


*bangs head against wall in frustration*

For the last time no, Tim was not a blank slate Pre-Flashpoint. By the time his solo book started he was already fully developed by his debut stories and his 3 miniseries. If you want in-depth descriptions of his character go to page 75 of this thread. An insert character can still be 3 dimensional, that's what makes Tim so great.

His distinction is that he was the mild mannered Robin, the one who wasn't extremely charismatic or extremely troubled. He was very much a regular kid who managed to get himself into crimefighting. Up until the New 52 changed him he still held that distinction.

I don't think I've ever called for Tim to be arrogant, if anything I've called for him to be more humble. A few snarky comments here and there are fine but hell no I don't want him to be an arrogant kid and I've never said otherwise.

"Everyman character's do have some character but that character is generic" Do I even have to explain what's wrong with this sentence?

I still don't see how either Dick or Damian are relatable compared to Tim. I guess you could relate to Dick if you were as handsome and perfect as him but Damian? Homicidal Looney Toon with serious mental problems Damian Wayne? Come on. At least you hate Duke, he's so horrible.

----------


## Assam

> I still don't see how either Dick or Damian are relatable compared to Tim. I guess you could relate to Dick if you were as handsome and perfect as him but Damian? Homicidal Looney Toon with serious mental problems Damian Wayne? Come on. At least you hate Duke, he's so horrible.


Mostly agree with your other points, but I'm gonna have to comment on this one. 

People relate to characters for different reasons. 

I'm not the greatest martial artist in the world, the compassionate clone of a homicidal maniac, or a former drug addict whose one of the world's best archers, and yet Cassandra Cain, Slobo, and Roy Harper are still the comic characters I see the most of myself in.

----------


## CPSparkles

> *bangs head against wall in frustration*
> 
> For the last time no, Tim was not a blank slate Pre-Flashpoint. By the time his solo book started he was already fully developed by his debut stories and his 3 miniseries. If you want in-depth descriptions of his character go to page 75 of this thread. An insert character can still be 3 dimensional, that's what makes Tim so great.
> 
> His distinction is that he was the mild mannered Robin, the one who wasn't extremely charismatic or extremely troubled. He was very much a regular kid who managed to get himself into crimefighting. Up until the New 52 changed him he still held that distinction.
> 
> I don't think I've ever called for Tim to be arrogant, if anything I've called for him to be more humble. A few snarky comments here and there are fine but hell no I don't want him to be an arrogant kid and I've never said otherwise.
> 
> "Everyman character's do have some character but that character is generic" Do I even have to explain what's wrong with this sentence?
> ...


I wouldn't call Damian a Homicidal Looney Toon with Mental problems. As someone who has their share of anxiety disorders I think it is very offensive to make such a remark when there is nothing to back it up. Sure he is a victim of an unhealthy childhood and he is socially awkward but I don't view him as having mental problems, looney or homicidal. Maybe you are the one that needs to read up on characters.
He has done nothing to indicate that he has mental issues. Tim is the one bat character who has exhibited traits at some point which I recognise as indicators of mental issues.

We will have to disagree on early Tim and his generic-ness but yes I relate to a lot about Damian. 
He is the most human of the family for me. Sure he is ninja child solider but I relate to the expectations placed on him by birth and his family. I relate to his quest to be a better human, I relate to his insecurities and the need to put up a front even when he is crumbling inside. I relate to his quest to prove that he is more than the person everyone expects him to be and I admire his strength, determination and courage.

His character is about struggle, overcoming and change.

Duke I have tried I really have but I just can't get into him. He is a cheap lazy knock-off and as others have said he takes up a spot that would be better utilised by a much better longer running character

----------


## shadowsgirl

Bruce vs. the washing machine. And the winner is...well, it's not Batman.  :Big Grin: 

Detective Comics 687_a.jpg

Detective Comics 687_b.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

And this is what happens when Tim and Bruce try to wash some clothes together....... These two are totally unviable without Alfred  :Big Grin: 

Batman-issue 521_a.jpg

Batman-issue 521_b.jpg

Batman-issue 521_c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batman-issue 521_d.jpg

10char

----------


## KrustyKid

> And this is what happens when Tim and Bruce try to wash some clothes together....... These two are totally unviable without Alfred 
> 
> Batman-issue 521_a.jpg
> 
> Batman-issue 521_b.jpg
> 
> Batman-issue 521_c.jpg


That's what we call an epic fail, lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That's what we call an epic fail, lol


They look so miserable. I almost feel sorry for them.....almost  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

We really need more moments like_this_

----------


## KrustyKid

> We really need more moments like_this_


I'm certainly all for it

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> His distinction is that he was the mild mannered Robin, the one who wasn't extremely charismatic or extremely troubled. He was very much a regular kid who managed to get himself into crimefighting. Up until the New 52 changed him he still held that distinction.


This is what I loved about Tim the most. I was a nerdy comic book geek growing up, and I saw that Tim was also a nerdy kid and he worked his way into being a badass. He may not have been the best fighter, but he more than made up for that by being able to outsmart his adversary. I related to it so much more than any character ever. It made me want to be a superhero and it inspired me.

----------


## Assam

New Red Robin.jpg

I actually really like the look of this fan re-design.

----------


## sakuyamons

> We really need more moments like_this_


I'd love Bruce to get Tim to some BatDonalds with the other boys once everything is over  :Stick Out Tongue:  with Cass and Steph too.

----------


## Assam

> I'd love Bruce to get Tim to some BatDonalds with the other boys once everything is over  with Cass and Steph too.


Tim: "Man, I can't tell you guys how much I missed food. Oz only gave us protein suppliments." 

Cass: "Supp...liments?" 

Steph: "It's protein in the form a mush. Weirdly, in texture, it's not too different from the stuff I use to disable the Bat Signal every night so your dad can't blow up city blocks." 

Bruce: " I am TRYING, Stephanie!"

----------


## Atlanta96

Anyone else think Tim's return is going to end up being really underwhelming?

----------


## sakuyamons

> Anyone else think Tim's return is going to end up being really underwhelming?


Eh, I like to think it will be epic, especially Tim's friends come with him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Eh, I like to think it will be epic, especially Tim's friends come with him.


But, considering how DC tends to treat Tim, especially in recent years, isn't it more likely to be, you know, disappointing?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Anyone else think Tim's return is going to end up being really underwhelming?


You're not alone in believing this.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Anyone else think Tim's return is going to end up being really underwhelming?


that depends on if they have an interesting direction for him. At the very least he needs to stop dressing like Robin.

----------


## sakuyamons

> that depends on if they have an interesting direction for him. At the very least he needs to stop dressing like Robin.


Agreed on that.

I digged the pren52 RR costume.

----------


## Atlanta96

The thing that killed my hope for Tim more than anything is the extent of his time in limbo. Believe it or not I was very optimistic towards the start of Rebirth, I was confident that Tim would be back in under 6 months. His exile will probably last a year or more now, that's alarming.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The thing that killed my hope for Tim more than anything is the extent of his time in limbo. Believe it or not I was very optimistic towards the start of Rebirth, I was confident that Tim would be back in under 6 months. His exile will probably last a year or more now, that's alarming.


Which is no surprise to me. I felt it would be over a year before we see him again. Still thinking anywhere from Nov to next January is when we'll see Tim's return.

----------


## sakuyamons

> The thing that killed my hope for Tim more than anything is the extent of his time in limbo. Believe it or not I was very optimistic towards the start of Rebirth, I was confident that Tim would be back in under 6 months. His exile will probably last a year or more now, that's alarming.


I'd tell you he's going to come back for DC Metal, but that'd be a lie.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Agreed on that.
> 
> I digged the pren52 RR costume.


me too! the kingdom come suit is the only good RR suit, it the cowl, the cape, the bird emblem, all looked great and distinctive from Red Hood and Nightwing. I honestly don't know why people had a problem with it. The N52 suit was generic and Rebirth was Robin.

----------


## oasis1313

> But, considering how DC tends to treat Tim, especially in recent years, isn't it more likely to be, you know, disappointing?


If it was Dick Grayson or Jason Todd, I'd say yes.  However, I expect Tim Drake to return with all the fanfare of Julius Caesar coming back to Rome after the Wars in Gaul.

----------


## Dataweaver

Wasn't that when the Senate put a knife in his back?

----------


## Aahz

> If it was Dick Grayson or Jason Todd, I'd say yes.  However, I expect Tim Drake to return with all the fanfare of Julius Caesar coming back to Rome after the Wars in Gaul.


Dick got in the last years actually by far the best treatment of the three.

With Tims reaturn we will have to see, but most of the past events haven't been that great.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is so funny  :Big Grin:  The music is killing me  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> me too! the kingdom come suit is the only good RR suit, it the cowl, the cape, the bird emblem, all looked great and distinctive from Red Hood and Nightwing. I honestly don't know why people had a problem with it. The N52 suit was generic and Rebirth was Robin.


I'm right there with you on this one. I'd like something closer to Tim's original Red Robin costume.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This is so funny  The music is killing me


I.. I don't even know.

Long pause

Walks out the door and closes it(air tight).

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I.. I don't even know.
> 
> Long pause
> 
> Walks out the door and closes it(air tight).


I can't stop laughing at it. Absolutely priceless.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## KrustyKid

> Robins


Love how Dick looks especially

----------


## Rac7d*

Where is tim in injustice

----------


## Aahz

> Where is tim in injustice


together with the rest of the Teen Titans traped in the phantom zone. It is shown in the second part of this video.

----------


## Rac7d*

> together with the rest of the Teen Titans traped in the phantom zone. It is shown in the second part of this video.


so no one is ever coming to ge them, becasue  supeboy has enough power to edge out superman and change the plot

----------


## shadowsgirl

Timothy 'Swan queen' Drake. He's so fabulous.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

14523097_2143159555908430_1328903406765356251_n.jpg

pika_family_reboot_by_crimsonhorror-d3iirqdn.jpg

i_was_perfect__by_karurie-d3iiijn.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

index.jpg

940eb2c87ded8ce72b13e42185356e83.jpg

a5bc6f12106987b42b0cf0ce7597b07c.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

robinballs_by_crimsonhorror-d3iyq40b.jpg

page_20.jpg

you_are_beautiful_by_colours07-d4mulhe.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

I found this chart showing Tim's chances of being included in Injustice 2.

IMG_0027.JPG

----------


## sakuyamons

> I found this chart showing Tim's chances of being included in Injustice 2.
> 
> IMG_0027.JPG


Better than that "Timinem" in arkham knight  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Better than that "Timinem" in arkham knight


He was fine in that game up until Batman locked him in that cell.

----------


## Frontier

> Better than that "Timinem" in arkham knight


Oh wow, that's the first I've heard of "Timinem." I should use that more  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Alycat

> Better than that "Timinem" in arkham knight


Really? I like Arkham Tim. Why do people hate him?

----------


## sakuyamons

> Oh wow, that's the first I've heard of "Timinem." I should use that more .


One of my mutuals on twitter coined the term and i picked it up ever since  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Really? I like Arkham Tim. Why do people hate him?


I don't think people "hate" him, so much as they weren't crazy abut his design or the random Barbara relationship in _Knight_.

----------


## Alycat

> I don't think people "hate" him, so much as they weren't crazy abut his design or the random Barbara relationship in _Knight_.


Oh. Yeah his design was meh but I actually thought his relationship with Babs was surprisingly sweet. Like it made sense. They were the two smart tech guys in the group and level headed. Then again Arkham Babs was just awesome in all ways.

----------


## Atlanta96

His characterization was half right (I still have nightmares about Tim/Babs) but that design was an abomination. It was so bad that I bought the One Year Later costume just to give him some hair, and I don't even like the OYL costume.

----------


## godisawesome

Arkham Tim seemed to almost be developed by two separate creative teams; his dialogue and voice work seemed to show someone who knew something about the character, while his storyline and relationships seemed to derive from only a broad understanding of Robin (and the Dick Grayson Robin, to boot). The constant "stay out of this" attitude from Batman, the repeated hostage element applied to all Batfamily members, and the whole being put into a cell thing, all seemed to stem from someone who only reluctantly approved a Robin appearing in the game. It feels like there was a genuine distaste for any kind of Batfamily, and that Robin was kind of treated as the personification of the idea, so he's basically a walking hostage.

The whole Babs-romance thing just kind of bleeds over from that, and just exacerbated how they'd kind of deadened Tim's individual characteristics. Which honestly, probably would have happened to any Robin they put in the costume save maybe Damian. Though the Babs romance also messes with the timeline, since it meant they had to age up Tim and shorten the period between his entrance and Jason's disappearance...

..which also snowballs into some of the missed opportunities with Arkham Knight as a whole. If Tim really does replace Jason that quickly, there *should* be some payoff; Bruce should have to explain himself, or Jason should be the one to capture Tim, or we get some kind of monologue. And if Jason could be the Robin in the Batgirl DLC, he should be; let Tim be the young up and comer in the main game, and make his characterization clear.

----------


## Frontier

I still find it funny that the Arkham franchise could never keep the Robins' VA's consistent between games. 

Dick went through three voices, Tim two, and Jason ended up with Tim's old VA  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

Maybe it should be called the "Commissioner Gordon Syndrome." Or the "Carmelita Fox Syndrome," for any Sly Cooper fans...

----------


## FishyZombie

> I still find it funny that the Arkham franchise could never keep the Robins' VA's consistent between games. 
> 
> Dick went through three voices, Tim two, and Jason ended up with Tim's old VA . 
> 
> Maybe it should be called the "Commissioner Gordon Syndrome." Or the "Carmelita Fox Syndrome," for any Sly Cooper fans...


Dick didn't talk or even show up until Knight, how is that possible?

----------


## Frontier

> Dick didn't talk or even show up until Knight, how is that possible?


He had voiced grunts in _City_ (Quinton Flynn) and a few lines in _Origins_ (Josh Keaton) for the challenge maps and multiplayer respectively.

----------


## KrustyKid

> He had voiced grunts in _City_ (Quinton Flynn)


This I did not know.

----------


## KrustyKid

Caption this;
cap.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Haha, the original is far less compromising  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

1.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> Haha, the original is far less compromising   
> 
> 1.jpg


Tim's face really makes that scene, lol

----------


## The Whovian

> Haha, the original is far less compromising   
> 
> 1.jpg


Aw. I like Depeche Mode and Enya. Not cool Kon. Not cool.

----------


## ayanestar

> Caption this;
> cap.jpg


...oh I would love to caption it but I don't think my version is appropriate for minors  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> ...oh I would love to caption it but I don't think my version is appropriate for minors


Lol, now I'm intrigued.

----------


## KrustyKid

robin19904pg21.jpg

Always loved the Tim/Shiva pre-52 bits

----------


## TeenWonder

Tim is my favorite comic-book character. I love him over anything and the best reads for him will probably always be the old Chuck Dixon runs along with 2011 Red Robin runs.

While I don`t exactly mind the new 52 Olympic origin story aside from the obvious cutting off the connection to his civilian life, I do think a large problem with Tim has been that he has been made into plot-device more than anything else. Dick Grayson has always been rather Deus Ex Machina, yet it rarely never really negates his struggles with his civilian life. So it really shouldn`t be that way with Tim. The problem with Tim is that we never get to see his moments as Tim Drake outside of his mask. We saw somewhat of a resemblance of that with him considering Ivy University but even that was cut off sooner than you could say "cat" with his apparent "death" and abduction.

The way I see it, the major problem with Tim came when the New 52 and the other stories cut off his ties to his family and deleted his bond to the rest of the Bat-Family particulalry Bruce and Dick. The thing is even with his parents being dead in the 2009-2011 Red Robin run...you could see how it still affected him. The focus was on this teenage boy trying to puzzle his life together after losing all dear to him. That's rarely the case anymore. All we see of Tim is him being out there as Red Robin and doing his job. There is very little focus on his life as Tim Drake or on his insecurities, feelings or emotions. The new origin story is largely at fault for this since they cut off both pre-established connection to his parents and his connection to his friends (Grayson and the Titans).

The wisest thing I think they could do with Tim at the moment is try to retcon him closest to the Tim from 2011 Red Robin run as possible. Through flashback or just simple mention...kill off Jack and Janet Drake and create drama off of that for Tim to play off while also re-establishing his serious, broodier persona. Return his mutual dislike/rivalry with both Damian and Jason and vice-versa (especially Tim and Jason. Those two being friends makes no sense) and have him struggle with the idea of becoming like Bruce while also having him juggle with his human relationships.

 The thing about Tim is that he is very much the embodiment of all the things that happened to him in the past and having him act like the way he does now makes no sense and does very little to his character.

DC has been focusing too much on Tim's surface level traits such as his intelligence and bo-staff instead of focusing on the the thing that counts. The boy behind the mask and his inner struggle with this life that has taken him by storm. Tim is a great character if done right and a fan favorite. He has multiple layers to him and if  DC just manages to grasp on the drama to be told with him, I have no doubt he could return to his former glory. All it takes really is a bit of tweaking around his current status quo and the right creative team and he is good to go. Oh yeah and actually giving him his solo title would do him wonders.

With all of that said, I am done. I know that was a bit all over the place. Those were just some initial thoughts  about Tim Drake and how to make him better. I can't say objectively  say that those are the only true ways of making his character better (after all I am just a fan not a professional writer), but those are some things I have been desperately missing off from Tim as of late and I would love for those features to return to him one way or the other.

TIM DRAKE 4 LYFE

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim is my favorite comic-book character. I love him over anything and the best reads for him will probably always be the old Chuck Dixon runs along with 2011 Red Robin runs.
> 
> While I don`t exactly mind the new 52 Olympic origin story aside from the obvious cutting off the connection to his civilian life, I do think a large problem with Tim has been that he has been made into plot-device more than anything else. Dick Grayson has always been rather Deus Ex Machina, yet it rarely never really negates his struggles with his civilian life. So it really shouldn`t be that way with Tim. The problem with Tim is that we never get to see his moments as Tim Drake outside of his mask. We saw somewhat of a resemblance of that with him considering Ivy University but even that was cut off sooner than you could say "cat" with his apparent "death" and abduction.
> 
> The way I see it, the major problem with Tim came when the New 52 and the other stories cut off his ties to his family and deleted his bond to the rest of the Bat-Family particulalry Bruce and Dick. The thing is even with his parents being dead in the 2009-2011 Red Robin run...you could see how it still affected him. The focus was on this teenage boy trying to puzzle his life together after losing all dear to him. That's rarely the case anymore. All we see of Tim is him being out there as Red Robin and doing his job. There is very little focus on his life as Tim Drake or on his insecurities, feelings or emotions. The new origin story is largely at fault for this since they cut off both pre-established connection to his parents and his connection to his friends (Grayson and the Titans).
> 
> The wisest thing I think they could do with Tim at the moment is try to retcon him closest to the Tim from 2011 Red Robin run as possible. Through flashback or just simple mention...kill off Jack and Janet Drake and create drama off of that for Tim to play off while also re-establishing his serious, broodier persona. Return his mutual dislike/rivalry with both Damian and Jason and vice-versa (especially Tim and Jason. Those two being friends makes no sense) and have him struggle with the idea of becoming like Bruce while also having him juggle with his human relationships.
> 
>  The thing about Tim is that he is very much the embodiment of all the things that happened to him in the past and having him act like the way he does now makes no sense and does very little to his character.
> ...


I agree with a lot of your points. The reason Tim has been the way he has in the new-52/rebirth is because he has been regulated to just a support character in large teams(TT/Tec team) instead of being able to develop like pretty much the rest of the Bat Family. When you're in a team book with a large cast, certain qualities tend to get exaggerated(to show the differences between each team member), and there is also less room for development. If Tim 'ever' gets a solo again I don't think we would have this problem. Simply put, Tim was given the short stick post-2011.

----------


## The Whovian

> robin19904pg21.jpg
> 
> Always loved the Tim/Shiva pre-52 bits


So did I. I always secretly wanted her to train Tim without Bruce's knowledge. But then that would have been a break in trust between the two and I wouldn't want that either.

----------


## TeenWonder

> I agree with a lot of your points. The reason Tim has been the way he has in the new-52/rebirth is because he has been regulated to just a support character in large teams(TT/Tec team) instead of being able to develop like pretty much the rest of the Bat Family. When you're in a team book with a large cast, certain qualities tend to get exaggerated(to show the differences between each team member), and there is also less room for development. If Tim 'ever' gets a solo again I don't think we would have this problem. Simply put, Tim was given the short stick post-2011.


Agreed. The sad about Tim however has been the fact that even among team books where you need to exaggerate certain features, the one features of Tim that have been exaggerated are the ones with least amount of emotional impact such as his brain and intelligence. Since while yes, Tim is freaking genius...It really doesn`t offer us too much of an experience into his personality. Since while yes, intelligence is a part of someone`s personality, it really doesn`t define it as a whole. There are many kinds of smart people out there ranging from extremely quirky and hyperactive to outright depressing and cynical. The sad part about Tim has been however is that we haven`t gotten any features of him like that into display. We has been written only as the smart guy and that`s that. Nowhere even among TT have we seen him at least mention that he shows signs of self-doubt or any inclinations of his awkward, teenage angst, not even from the possibility of playing it out as humor. And that`s honestly the most sad part about it since it really makes him bland as a character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Agreed. The sad about Tim however has been the fact that even among team books where you need to exaggerate certain features, the one features of Tim that have been exaggerated are the ones with least amount of emotional impact such as his brain and intelligence. Since while yes, Tim is freaking genius...It really doesn`t offer us too much of an experience into his personality. Since while yes, intelligence is a part of someone`s personality, it really doesn`t define it as a whole. There are many kinds of smart people out there ranging from extremely quirky and hyperactive to outright depressing and cynical. The sad part about Tim has been however is that we haven`t gotten any features of him like that into display. We has been written only as the smart guy and that`s that. Nowhere even among TT have we seen him at least mention that he shows signs of self-doubt or any inclinations of his awkward, teenage angst, not even from the possibility of playing it out as humor. And that`s honestly the most sad part about it since it really makes him bland as a character.


Which plays to the point at hand. You can't really dive into those elements of Tim's character when he's always in a book with a large cast. We can only hope for a solo, or at least a book he's featured in with a smaller cast.

----------


## CPSparkles

As much as i dislike what New 52 did I do like his parents being alive I just wish it can be redone in a better way and they be more a part of his life.
I also like his friendship with Jason and don't mind if the rivalry with Damian is restored.With Dick and Damian being so close I like the Reds having some sort of amicable relationship. I also wish he had more of a relationship with Dick.

I don't think the whole making him Bruce like works not when there is now and living breathing mini Bruce around. I love Damian but I will be the 1st to admit that he does step on some toes so with that now being the case I think Tim needs to be redefined.

I like him more self confident because lets face it all the Robins aside from Dick are insecure so Dick and Tim can be the secure well adjusted Robins and I agree that we need to see more of the person.

----------


## KrustyKid

> So did I. I always secretly wanted her to train Tim without Bruce's knowledge. But then that would have been a break in trust between the two and I wouldn't want that either.


I'd love for Shiva to train current Tim, given the right circumstances. He could really use it, because as a fighter current Tim is kind of a wuss in comparison to the rest of the Bat Family. I'm starting to wonder if Batman even taught him anything in the form of combat, lol

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'd love for Shiva to train current Tim, given the right circumstances. He could really use it, because as a fighter current Tim is kind of a wuss in comparison to the rest of the Bat Family. I'm starting to wonder if Batman even taught him anything in the form of combat, lol


If the lost time is restored then that means Tim spent more years under Bruce so that should be reflected in his fighting ability.

----------


## TeenWonder

> As much as i dislike what New 52 did I do like his parents being alive I just wish it can be redone in a better way and they be more a part of his life.
> I also like his friendship with Jason and don't mind if the rivalry with Damian is restored.With Dick and Damian being so close I like the Reds having some sort of amicable relationship. I also wish he had more of a relationship with Dick.
> 
> I don't think the whole making him Bruce like works not when there is now and living breathing mini Bruce around. I love Damian but I will be the 1st to admit that he does step on some toes so with that now being the case I think Tim needs to be redefined.
> 
> I like him more self confident because lets face it all the Robins aside from Dick are insecure so Dick and Tim can be the secure well adjusted Robins and I agree that we need to see more of the person.


There are actually many ways to go about the same theme actually. I personally don`t think that you need to side-line the overall theme idea of Tim becoming more like Bruce completely even with Damian around, as long you go different ways about it for both of them. Damian has always seemed to embrace the fact that he is like his father so having him notice the differences could show more humane side of Damian and have him struggle with the fact that he can be his own person outside of Bruce as well, while as for Tim It`s more about a person who wants to be his own man and tries to do so but constantly due to the changes in his life, sees himself becoming more and more like this person whom he respects but necessarily doesn`t want to resemble. Remember Tim was afraid of becoming like Bruce, Damian is not. So having Tim struggle with the idea of becoming like Bruce and grow outside of his fear wouldn`t be too bad of an idea. At least in my eyes.

----------


## CPSparkles

> There are actually many ways to go about the same theme actually. I personally don`t think that you need to side-line the overall theme idea of Tim becoming more like Bruce completely even with Damian around, as long you go different ways about it for both of them. Damian has always seemed to embrace the fact that he is like his father so having him notice the differences could show more humane side of Damian and have him struggle with the fact that he can be his own person outside of Bruce as well, while as for Tim It`s more about a person who wants to be his own man and tries to do so but constantly due to the changes in his life, sees himself becoming more and more like this person whom he respects but necessarily doesn`t want to resemble. Remember Tim was afraid of becoming like Bruce, Damian is not. So having Tim struggle with the idea of becoming like Bruce and grow outside of his fear wouldn`t be too bad of an idea. At least in my eyes.


Actually I think that is a very good idea and that is true to the original Tim.

Although after the last issue of Nightwing it seems that might not the case with Damian but I still like the idea of Tim becoming something he doesn't want and having to struggle against it.

----------


## oasis1313

No more dead parents, please.  Gotham City is overrun with orphans as it is.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No more dead parents, please.  Gotham City is overrun with orphans as it is.


I only want 1 of his parents to die.

----------


## Atlanta96

The problem with Tim isn't _just_ his relegation to Team books and crossovers, in my opinion the main problem is just that none of the writers understood his character. The over-reliance on hacking was annoying but at least it kind of fit in with his pre-established character, what really bugged me was his insufferable arrogance, terrible leadership skills, lack of close relationships, and failure to be relatable or compelling in any way.

If Tim was just a generic smart teen hero during the New 52 that would be one thing, but the New 52 writers took it a step further and made him a joke.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I only want 1 of his parents to die.


Nah. I'd prefer if they both stayed alive. If anything it would make for something different than what we had in the past. Why kill one of them off? What purpose would it serve? Tim's reason for fighting the good fight was never driven by tragedy, I don't see why any of his folks need to be offed. If used properly they could add another dimension to Tim's life, narrative wise it would be unique in comparison to the other Robin boys.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Nah. I'd prefer if they both stayed alive. If anything it would make for something different than what we had in the past. Why kill one of them off? What purpose would it serve? Tim's reason for fighting the good fight was never driven by tragedy, I don't see why any of his folks need to be offed. If used properly they could add another dimension to Tim's life, narrative wise it would be unique in comparison to the other Robin boys.


If only to distance him from the New 52 Origin as much as possible, I still want at least 1 of them gone.

----------


## KrustyKid

> If only to distance him from the New 52 Origin as much as possible, I still want at least 1 of them gone.


Lol, that's a silly reason. When Tim was introduced pre-52 both his parents were alive as well. I don't know about you but I'm not to interested in getting an angsty Tim. Killing one of his parents is all that would do. Killing off one of his parents just for the sake of it? Can't agree, there would have to be something interesting from a story stand point that could come of it. And as of now I don't believe such a move would do Tim any favors.

----------


## sakuyamons

Killing Tim's family was a mistake in pre-FP and would still be a mistake on this one imo.

----------


## Assam

> Killing Tim's family was a mistake in pre-FP and would still be a mistake on this one imo.


Agreed. 

10char

----------


## KrustyKid

> Killing Tim's family was a mistake in pre-FP and would still be a mistake on this one imo.


Right there with you brotha

----------


## Atlanta96

They killed his mom about a year after he was introduced, having a dead parent is a pretty established part of his character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> They killed his mom about a year after he was introduced, having a dead parent is a pretty established part of his character.


True. And we got some good stories between Tim and his father along the way. But do we really need a complete rehash of that? My point is, Tim's mother(Janet) offed Pre-52 was still not a defining element of Tim's character. Tim's desire to help Batman, make the world a better place, his struggle between a normal life and his crime fighting one, and his set goal to become the greatest detective were his defining qualities at his core. You don't need the death of either of his parents to stay true to who he is. There deaths were not what drove Tim to do what he does, it was his choice from the beginning. Again, killing off either of his parents at this time really does nothing to serve Tim, except possibly make him darker. I'm not so sure that's what the majority wants. I for one welcome a lighter Tim.

----------


## TeenWonder

I for one am one of the few people who like the idea of Tim's parents being dead. Not because it would change his reasons for being a hero but because it would show how that character deals with trauma and shows how things like that can affect a person like they did in the 2011 Red Robin run. I am not saying they should have died from the get go when he first becomes Robin but after certain period of time or even as Red Robin in this new universe. You could do it that way without changing his reason for becoming a hero and you could play off drama and do characer development because of that (example once again. 2011 Red Robin run). The thing about Dick and Jason is that while their parents are gone. You rarely actually see it affecting them all that much. Dick was able to move on and find happiness despite all of it, Jason never really seems too fond of even thinking about it as Red Hood. Tim could be the one actually affected by it.

Plus honestly what point did Jack Drake serve aside from that brief period of time when he was awake from coma.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I for one am one of the few people who like the idea of Tim's parents being dead. Not because it would change his reasons for being a hero but because it would show how that character deals with trauma and shows how things like that can affect a person like they did in the 2011 Red Robin run. I am not saying they should have died from the get go when he first becomes Robin but after certain period of time or even as Red Robin in this new universe. You could do it that way without changing his reason for becoming a hero and you could play off drama and do characer development because of that (example once again. 2011 Red Robin run). The thing about Dick and Jason is that while their parents are gone. You rarely actually see it affecting them all that much. Dick was able to move on and find happiness despite all of it, Jason never really seems too fond of even thinking about it as Red Hood. Tim could be the one actually affected by it.
> 
> Plus honestly what point did Jack Drake serve aside from that brief period of time when he was awake from coma.


That's the thing. We've never seen Tim's parents have a big purpose in Tim's life from a reader standpoint. This is our chance to get that. If anything it would be different from anything we got in the past. Tim doesn't need to be an orphan like the other Robin boys.

----------


## TeenWonder

> That's the thing. We've never seen Tim's parents have a big purpose in Tim's life from a reader standpoint. This is our chance to get that. If anything it would be different from anything we got in the past. Tim doesn't need to be an orphan like the other Robin boys.


Fair point. But maybe that's just me but I sort of got enough of a view-point on how he interacted with his parents in the Pre-52 era when Jack Drake returned from the coma. It may have not always been the main focus but I got both satisfaction and clear idea of how much Tim and Jack Drake cared for each other. It was more than enough at least for me. Which made it only more enjoyable to read when Jack died and things in Tim's life turned around. It pulled all the emotional heartstrings well, especially with the aftermath and in retrospect it created good gateway for Tim's development to become Red Robin. Maybe that's just me though. 

I wouldn't mind having his parents back at least for a while to show off his connection to his parents and to show his struggles with it in this new universe.But at least at some point I do feel like they need to kill them off if only for that shock value and for us to see how that character deals with loss. Plus it offers good opportunities for character growth and development. At least in my eyes. Since otherwise I feel like that it will become too stale without his status quo ever changing.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Fair point. But maybe that's just me but I sort of got enough of a view-point on how he interacted with his parents in the Pre-52 era when Jack Drake returned from the coma. It may have not always been the main focus but I got both satisfaction and clear idea of how much Tim and Jack Drake cared for each other. It was more than enough at least for me. Which made it only more enjoyable to read when Jack died and things in Tim's life turned around. It pulled all the emotional heartstrings well, especially with the aftermath and in retrospect it created good gateway for Tim's development to become Red Robin. Maybe that's just me though. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind having his parents back at least for a while to show off his connection to his parents and to show his struggles with it in this new universe.But at least at some point I do feel like they need to kill them off if only for that shock value and for us to see how that character deals with loss. Plus it offers good opportunities for character growth and development. At least in my eyes. Since otherwise I feel like that it will become too stale without his status quo ever changing.


No, no. I too enjoyed the development that came from Jack's death in the past as well, especially the Red Robin transition. Outside of the Dixon stuff I'd rank that time up there as well.

I see where you're coming from. But you really don't need his parents to die to have a change in status quo, and especially not just for shock value. There are other ways to do that. Like I pointed out before, killing Tim's parents(again) will just make him more like the other Robins. There is really no point to killing his parents, that is never been a defining point about Tim's character unlike Bruce or even Dick. You would basically have Damian with the bad a$$ parents and Tim with the normal ones. Hey, if done right I feel they could add a lot more to Tim's story than being dead. There's also the fact they are aware of his crime fighting ways, so that could also be something else to play with. 

In conclusion, I like different flavors of ice cream when I go to the shop.

----------


## TeenWonder

> No, no. I too enjoyed the development that came from Jack's death in the past as well, especially the Red Robin transition. Outside of the Dixon stuff I'd rank that time up there as well.
> 
> I see where you're coming from. But you really don't need his parents to die to have a change in status quo, and especially not just for shock value. There are other ways to do that. Like I pointed out before, killing Tim's parents(again) will just make him more like the other Robins. There is really no point to killing his parents, that is never been a defining point about Tim's character unlike Bruce or even Dick. You would basically have Damian with the bad a$$ parents and Tim with the normal ones. Hey, if done right I feel they could add a lot more to Tim's story than being dead. There's also the fact they are aware of his crime fighting ways, so that could also be something else to play with. 
> 
> In conclusion, I like different flavors of ice cream when I go to the shop.



Yeah I can see where you are coming from. I personally just think that killing off his parents creates more opportunities for storytelling than rather have them be around and possibly knowing his identity for him to juggle around that. Maybe It`s just me being narrow-minded but, I can only see that formula running for only so long before it gets stale. I personally don`t mind the idea of making him more like other Robins especially since he already has found a good middle-ground between Jason Todd and Dick Grayson. I sort of like the idea of essentially everyone around Batman being cursed one way or the other and having Tim (the one with most regular family-life) lose his parents only sort of pushes the idea of that even further. Plus it shows to Tim that there are consequences to this vigilante lifestyle, he chose to pursue. I get your point about wanting him to be different, however. I am a sucker for the 2011 Tim Drake as a follow-up to the Chuck Dixon stuff and that`s the reason I probably want for Tim to have as many reasons for teenage angst as much as possible. Especially since he is Red Robin and not Robin any longer.

----------


## Jadeb

Also, if what sets Tim apart from the other Batfamily members is that he's the "normal one," it makes no sense to kill off his family. I'd much rather see him trying to balance his work and home life than more of Tynion's shtick that he's the greatest button pusher in the whole wide world. The latter is a dead end. You'll never set Tim apart in a cast of the world's greatest by trying to make him the greatest greatest.

----------


## Aahz

> Return his mutual dislike/rivalry with both Damian and Jason and vice-versa (especially Tim and Jason. Those two being friends makes no sense) and have him struggle with the idea of becoming like Bruce while also having him juggle with his human relationships.


Personally I think it is enough if you have a rivality between Tim and Damian and between Dick and Jason, if they are all hating each other it is also not really working. And if they want keep jason in the family should at least get along with one of the others.

But I have to admit that sofar they didn't really manage to establish a good Tim Jason dynamic,  what they did in B&RE didn't really work imo (that was more like the old Tim Kon-El dynamic, but Jason isn't really Kon-El).

----------


## TeenWonder

> Personally I think it is enough if you have a rivality between Tim and Damian and between Dick and Jason, if they are all hating each other it is also not really working. And if they want keep jason in the family should at least get along with one of the others.
> 
> But I have to admit that sofar they didn't really manage to establish a good Tim Jason dynamic,  what they did in B&RE didn't really work imo (that was more like the old Tim Kon-El dynamic, but Jason isn't really Kon-El).


Yes, well the thing is that even then Dick tries to get along with Jason (Because Dick is a real nice guy) it doesn`t mean that Tim and Jason shouldn`t have certain anomisty against each other as well. After all Tim was the Robin who replaced Jason and assuming Battle for the Cowl is at least semi-canon he also tried to kill Tim, more than once. I can`t really see Tim just forgiving Jason all of a sudden like that, let alone get along with him. I personally think that the idea of Jason getting along with the rest of the Bat-Family seemed a bit fan-fictionish to begin with. I personally enjoyed him the most as an anti-hero.

----------


## Aahz

> Yes, well the thing is that even then Dick tries to get along with Jason (Because Dick is a real nice guy) it doesn`t mean that Tim and Jason shouldn`t have certain anomisty against each other as well. After all Tim was the Robin who replaced Jason and assuming Battle for the Cowl is at least semi-canon he also tried to kill Tim, more than once. I can`t really see Tim just forgiving Jason all of a sudden like that, let alone get along with him. I personally think that the idea of Jason getting along with the rest of the Bat-Family seemed a bit fan-fictionish to begin with. I personally enjoyed him the most as an anti-hero.


Jason rejoining the Batfamily was unfortunatly really rushed and poorly handled, they should have taken much more time to do it (Jasons appearances in the Batman books have actually mostly been not particularly good).

Personally I'm totally fine with Battle for the Cowl (and every Jason appaerence after it untill Flashpoint) beeing erased from canon, they were all really out of character imo.

----------


## CPSparkles

Is BFTC still canon? Tim became Red Robin instead of Robin because of Jason. To honour him so that's something to build from. Come to think of it is Red Robin still canon? and is the animosity between Damian and Tim even still a thing? Really there should be no animosity between Tim and Damian and Tim was respectful to Jason. The boys should get along. I prefer when they get along instead of forced angst.

I like Jason getting along with the family even if he does do things his own way. I feel like he has grown a lot as a character and he's getting along fine with Bruce. They seem to have reached a sort of understanding in RHATO.

----------


## Assam

> Yes, well the thing is that even then Dick tries to get along with Jason (Because Dick is a real nice guy) it doesn`t mean that Tim and Jason shouldn`t have certain anomisty against each other as well. After all Tim was the Robin who replaced Jason and assuming Battle for the Cowl is at least semi-canon he also tried to kill Tim, more than once. I can`t really see Tim just forgiving Jason all of a sudden like that, let alone get along with him. I personally think that the idea of Jason getting along with the rest of the Bat-Family seemed a bit fan-fictionish to begin with. I personally enjoyed him the most as an anti-hero.


Jason getting along with the Family is no less realistic than Damian. Remember, one of the first things the little squirt did was nearly kill Tim. (Seriously, why have so many Batfamily members either nearly killed or attempted to kill Tim?) Honestly, part of the reason why, while I like Dick and Damian's relationship (much more than the sum of its parts), any time they have a sweet moment, the back of my head is just imagining Dick saying, "Hey Damian, remember the time you nearly murdered the person who'd been my surrogate little brother for several years?"

----------


## CPSparkles

> Jason getting along with the Family is no less realistic than Damian. Remember, one of the first things the little squirt did was nearly kill Tim. (Seriously, why have so many Batfamily members either nearly killed or attempted to kill Tim?) Honestly, part of the reason why, while I like Dick and Damian's relationship (much more than the sum of its parts), any time they have a sweet moment, the back of my head is just imagining Dick saying, "Hey Damian, remember the time you nearly murdered the person who'd been my surrogate little brother for several years?"


Yes but you are not a hero. These people believe in redemption and that people can be changed so it is 100% realistic that they would forgive a 10 year old who has learnt that the only way to be accepted is to eliminate your rival.

Also Tim was Red Robin not a Wayne and moved on to TT shortly after joining Bats did any of that even happen? Pretty sure it never happened since why would it. I have to refer to secret origins but sure that never happened now.

----------


## TeenWonder

> Is BFTC still canon? Tim became Red Robin instead of Robin because of Jason. To honour him so that's something to build from. Come to think of it is Red Robin still canon? and is the animosity between Damian and Tim even still a thing? Really there should be no animosity between Tim and Damian and Tim was respectful to Jason. The boys should get along. I prefer when they get along instead of forced angst.
> 
> I like Jason getting along with the family even if he does do things his own way. I feel like he has grown a lot as a character and he's getting along fine with Bruce. They seem to have reached a sort of understanding in RHATO.


Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole problem with freaking Red Robin identity reboot thing to begin with! See this is the problem with Nu52. You have no idea about what has happened and when with these characters. But I do think Battle for the Cowl still holds some value. After all Dick Grayson became Batman and other things like that were mentioned. 

I personally prefer for not every character to get along since it feels kind of generic and to be honest rather unbelivable. I prefer when certain characters don`t like each other. Even among family. Creates drama and offers opportunities for character development. And I think the anomosity between Tim and Damian is still canon. Damian tried to fight him once only to get one-shotted by Tim (again)





> Jason getting along with the Family is no less realistic than Damian. Remember, one of the first things the little squirt did was nearly kill Tim. (Seriously, why have so many Batfamily members either nearly killed or attempted to kill Tim?) Honestly, part of the reason why, while I like Dick and Damian's relationship (much more than the sum of its parts), any time they have a sweet moment, the back of my head is just imagining Dick saying, "Hey Damian, remember the time you nearly murdered the person who'd been my surrogate little brother for several years?"


And yes, Jason getting along with others is all fine and good even in my book, just not with Tim. There is too much baggage I feel like between those two. And like I said, Damian shouldn`t get along with Tim either except in the sense of (I tolerate you because others tolerate you) kind of fashion and it should be the same way with Jason as well. And Dick Grayson is great because he can forgive pretty much anyone haha.

----------


## Assam

> And Dick Grayson is great because he can forgive pretty much anyone haha.


Unless of course the person in question is Cassandra Cain, and Dick is being written by Beechen or Tieri.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

I think you have things backwards there with regards to the "one shot" but I'm not going to get into that here. I can't wait for Rebirth to hurry up and clarify things because right now it all seems to be angst for angst sake. They don't all have to have a special "I love you no I love you more, I wish you were mine to keep"relationship like Dd but they don't have to hate each other without reason.

----------


## TeenWonder

> Unless of course the person in question is Cassandra Cain, and Dick is being written by Beechen or Tieri.


Yeah. Fair point. I have no idea what is the idea with that. Edgifying Grayson isn`t really the right way to go about stuff.

PS. I think Jason and Damian both tried to kill Tim off because of his Golden Boy status haha.

----------


## Alycat

> Jason getting along with the Family is no less realistic than Damian. Remember, one of the first things the little squirt did was nearly kill Tim. (Seriously, why have so many Batfamily members either nearly killed or attempted to kill Tim?) Honestly, part of the reason why, while I like Dick and Damian's relationship (much more than the sum of its parts), any time they have a sweet moment, the back of my head is just imagining Dick saying, "Hey Damian, remember the time you nearly murdered the person who'd been my surrogate little brother for several years?"


It's fine for him to get along with the family, just not the way he has with Tim of all people. There should still be friction there imo. At least with Damian we saw his growth and change along with being a child. Honestly being paired up with Jason probably hurt them both instead of help.

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## TeenWonder

> I think you have things backwards there with regards to the "one shot" but I'm not going to get into that here. I can't wait for Rebirth to hurry up and clarify things because right now it all seems to be angst for angst sake. They don't all have to have a special "I love you no I love you more, I wish you were mine to keep"relationship like Dd but they don't have to hate each other without reason.


No. Actually I think it was that way. I am talking about New 52 run, when Damian tried to leap towards Tim and Tim just smacked him away with a bo-staff against some glass case or something.

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## CPSparkles

> No. Actually I think it was that way. I am talking about New 52 run, when Damian tried to leap towards Tim and Tim just smacked him away with a bo-staff against some glass case or something.


That was War of the Robins where Damian was trolling Tim trying to get him to attack him to prove that Tim was just as violent as him and it worked. Tim got so upset that he attacked Damian with his Bo. Damian simply laughed and said "I'm Rambunctious". 

Damian wasn't fighting simply trying to prove a point and provoke Tim into violence. Remember.

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## TeenWonder

> That was War of the Robins where Damian was trolling Tim trying to get him to attack him to prove that Tim was just as violent as him and it worked. Tim got so upset that he attacked Damian with his Bo. Damian simply laughed and said "I'm Rambunctious". 
> 
> Damian wasn't fighting simply trying to prove a point and provoke Tim into violence. Remember.


Ah I see. I mistook the situation then since I never read the full-issue (didn`t like Robin War too much to begin with). And well while I may not know the full-context, I do think that having Tim attack Damian like that does prove that not everything is all hunky-dory between those two, even if it was to prove a point.

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## CPSparkles

> Ah I see. I mistook the situation then since I never read the full-issue (didn`t like Robin War too much to begin with). And well while I may not know the full-context, I do think that having Tim attack Damian like that does prove that not everything is all hunky-dory between those two, even if it was to prove a point.


Not really it just proves that Damian can get in Tim's head. I mean I could live with them not being the best of friends or simply just two guys who don't get along because Damian is disrespectful and trolls Tim which would be true. I just wish things were clear.

----------


## Atlanta96

As much as I love Grant Morrison, he did a really bad job transitioning the Robin mantle from Tim to Damian. Not only did it screw over Tim in the long run by making his departure as humiliating and depressing as possible, it also tainted the Dick/Damian relationship that so many fans love with a really ugly backstory. Dick basically dumped Tim for Damian, at Tim's lowest point ever right after his adoptive father had supposedly died. It bothers me that some fans still see nothing wrong with that situation.

It hurts to say this but Morrison is one of the worst things to happen to Tim, if not THE worst. Almost everything else he's written has been amazing so I can forgive him, but I wish he never got that involved with the Bat-books.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Jason rejoining the Batfamily was unfortunatly really rushed and poorly handled, they should have taken much more time to do it (Jasons appearances in the Batman books have actually mostly been not particularly good).
> 
> Personally I'm totally fine with Battle for the Cowl (and every Jason appaerence after it untill Flashpoint) beeing erased from canon, they were all really out of character imo.


I'm not a fan of Jason becoming part of the Family either. I always preferred him as a villain or a very dark anti-hero, and being on good terms with the rest of the Family really detracts from his character and makes him less distinct. The Bat-Burger scene was the worst case, he felt so neutered and generic in that scene and was basically a different character, they did a poor job going from Pre-Flashpoint villain Jason Todd to that.

They could've made it work if they actually put effort into him rejoining the Family, and having the other members forgive him. But I guess he was too popular for them to take their time.

----------


## CPSparkles

> As much as I love Grant Morrison, he did a really bad job transitioning the Robin mantle from Tim to Damian. Not only did it screw over Tim in the long run by making his departure as humiliating and depressing as possible, it also tainted the Dick/Damian relationship that so many fans love with a really ugly backstory. Dick basically dumped Tim for Damian, at Tim's lowest point ever right after his adoptive father had supposedly died. It bothers me that some fans still see nothing wrong with that situation.
> 
> It hurts to say this but Morrison is one of the worst things to happen to Tim, if not THE worst. Almost everything else he's written has been amazing so I can forgive him, but I wish he never got that involved with the Bat-books.


I agree with the transition was bad which made Tim going to straight to Red Robin a bit more palatable in comparison.
I know a lot of fans love angsty batboys but I enjoyed Batman #16 as OOC as it was [though I had to put a cut of Tim's face over Duke] and I wish we had more interactions like that.

These guys fight together, they work together I don't see why they can't kick back together sometimes.

Again is that still canon though?
Personally I love Grant for giving us Dd and Damian and Batcow

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## Aahz

> I'm not a fan of Jason becoming part of the Family either. I always preferred him as a villain or a very dark anti-hero, and being on good terms with the rest of the Family really detracts from his character and makes him less distinct.


I liked him like he was in Winicks Outsiders or in the early issues of Countdown. I think that is the characterisation they should use. BFC als Morrisosns Stuff was imo also pretty horrible.




> The Bat-Burger scene was the worst case, he felt so neutered and generic in that scene and was basically a different character, they did a poor job going from Pre-Flashpoint villain Jason Todd to that.


this felt really like fanfic to me.




> They could've made it work if they actually put effort into him rejoining the Family, and having the other members forgive him. But I guess he was too popular for them to take their time.


I think he was to popular to leave him out, but not important enough to really do a proper redemption arc. 

I think they made a similar mistake with Barbara, where should have also made her return as Batgirl in continuity.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole problem with freaking Red Robin identity reboot thing to begin with! See this is the problem with Nu52. You have no idea about what has happened and when with these characters. But I do think Battle for the Cowl still holds some value. After all Dick Grayson became Batman and other things like that were mentioned. 
> 
> I personally prefer for not every character to get along since it feels kind of generic and to be honest rather unbelivable. I prefer when certain characters don`t like each other. Even among family. Creates drama and offers opportunities for character development. *And I think the anomosity between Tim and Damian is still canon*. Damian tried to fight him once only to get one-shotted by Tim (again)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, Jason getting along with others is all fine and good even in my book, just not with Tim. There is too much baggage I feel like between those two. And like I said, Damian shouldn`t get along with Tim either except in the sense of (I tolerate you because others tolerate you) kind of fashion and it should be the same way with Jason as well. And Dick Grayson is great because he can forgive pretty much anyone haha.


I don't believe so. There hasn't really been much to suggest that it is.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I don't believe so. There hasn't really been much to suggest that it is.


I think there is a certain dislike of each other but not as big as in pre52

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think there is a certain dislike of each other but not as big as in pre52


Pretty much this. They're indifferent to one another from what I can tell. No real love or hate. Not like in the past.

----------


## Frontier

When I think of Damian and Tim in the New 52, I think of multiple times where Damian has been disrespectful or dismissive of Tim, like that moment in Synder's first issue of_ Batman_ with the boys in their Tux's, or in _Robin War_ where I think Damian even calls him the "not-Robin" Robin or something to that effect. 

There was probably some stuff in that arc of _Batman and Robin_ where Damian was taking on all the Robins to prove himself, but I can't recall off the top of my head anything specific to Tim. 

Tim, by comparison, has always seemed nonplussed by it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> When I think of Damian and Tim in the New 52, I think of multiple times where Damian has been disrespectful or dismissive of Tim, like that moment in Synder's first issue of_ Batman_ with the boys in their Tux's, or in _Robin War_ where I think Damian even calls him the "not-Robin" Robin or something to that effect. 
> 
> There was probably some stuff in that arc of _Batman and Robin_ where Damian was taking on all the Robins to prove himself, but I can't recall off the top of my head anything specific to Tim. 
> 
> Tim, by comparison, has always seemed nonplussed by it.


Jason was the one who called Tim not a Robin, Damian called him easy to forget but you are correct that in the new52 Damian is his usual snarky self like he is with everyone who isn't Dick, bruce or Alfred and Tim just like one would be with an annoying younger brother. Their interactions were also to few too grasp what their relationship is really like.

Honestly I really don't think there is any animosity there now.

----------


## Aioros22

> I liked him like he was in Winicks Outsiders or in the early issues of Countdown. I think that is the characterisation they should use. BFC als Morrisosns Stuff was imo also pretty horrible.
> 
> this felt really like fanfic to me.
> 
> I think he was to popular to leave him out, but not important enough to really do a proper redemption arc. 
> 
> I think they made a similar mistake with Barbara, where should have also made her return as Batgirl in continuity.


Jebus, his relationships with Alfred, Bruce, Tim and to a less certain extent even Damian have been throughly explored since the reboot. The Burger scene plays into that. You just need to understand whatever relationship was set between the two ecxchanging throphies and the grudging respect. 

The one that has been not explored one bit out of the surface has been Dick and him. 

Bruce`s relationship is the most explored of them all and explored well. Bruce accepts him because he knows he can trust Jason with the the sort of methods he uses whereas he wouldn`t a Deathstroke. I`m trying to figure out what a "real dark anti-hero" is supposed to be and why that would stop Jason being Jason and either respected or embraced within the family.

----------


## Alycat

> Jebus, his relationships with Alfred, Bruce, Tim and to a less certain extent even Damian have been throughly explored since the reboot. The Burger scene plays into that. You just need to understand whatever relationship was set between the two ecxchanging throphies and the grudging respect. 
> 
> The one that has been not explored one bit out of the surface has been Dick and him. 
> 
> Bruce`s relationship is the most explored of them all and explored well. Bruce accepts him because he knows he can trust Jason with the the sort of methods he uses whereas he wouldn`t a Deathstroke. I`m trying to figure out what a "real dark anti-hero" is supposed to be and why that would stop Jason being Jason and either respected or embraced within the family.


I agree with this. Also I think it sucks that so many feel like the scene was fanfiction, cause I thought it was great. Speaking of which, both Jason and Tim really need someone to explain/explore their relationship with Dick. Since this is a Tim thread, It's disappointing with how their relationship fell apart.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I agree with this. Also I think it sucks that so many feel like the scene was fanfiction, cause I thought it was great. Speaking of which, both Jason and Tim really need someone to explain/explore their relationship with Dick. Since this is a Tim thread, It's disappointing with how their relationship fell apart.


So do I, I was reading my YJ trade that includes Robin: Secret Origins and they seemed really close.

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## KrustyKid

> I agree with this. Also I think it sucks that so many feel like the scene was fanfiction, cause I thought it was great. Speaking of which, both Jason and Tim really need someone to explain/explore their relationship with Dick. Since this is a Tim thread, It's disappointing with how their relationship fell apart.


Not just Dick. Tim's relationship with anybody outside of Jason and Steph to a degree is..... there's just nothing to go off of. At times in bat crossovers it almost felt as if Tim was just a family friend or a complete stranger even.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Not just Dick. Tim's relationship with anybody outside of Jason and Steph to a degree is..... there's just nothing to go off of. At times in bat crossovers it almost felt as if Tim was just a family friend or a complete stranger even.


I wonder how many DC writers hate or dislike Tim. They can't come out and say it, but aside from Tynion no one at the company seems to like the poor guy very much.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I wonder how many DC writers hate or dislike Tim. They can't come out and say it, but aside from Tynion no one at the company seems to like the poor guy very much.


I don't know if they hate him or dislike him, but no one at the bat-office seems to care about him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't know if they hate him or dislike him, but no one at the bat-office seems to care about him.


Just like Tim and Damian's relationship, everyone is indifferent to him, lol

----------


## nightbird

> Jason getting along with the Family is no less realistic than Damian. Remember, one of the first things the little squirt did was nearly kill Tim. (Seriously, why have so many Batfamily members either nearly killed or attempted to kill Tim?) Honestly, part of the reason why, while I like Dick and Damian's relationship (much more than the sum of its parts), any time they have a sweet moment, the back of my head is just imagining Dick saying, "Hey Damian, remember the time you nearly murdered the person who'd been my surrogate little brother for several years?"


So, one brother fought another one, then kid learned his lesson, but you want older brother to hold a grudge against his little brother? I know you could be biased, but c'mon.

I actully liked Tim getting along with Jason, even if it felt forced, it's just upsetting seeing how they erased Tim and Dick's bond in the process. Since I read everything back to back in couple of months, it was painful to witness. 




> I wonder how many DC writers hate or dislike Tim. They can't come out and say it, but aside from Tynion no one at the company seems to like the poor guy very much.


I don't think they hate him, but Tim suffers from "middle child" problem.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I think the issue is writers hated (or just weren't interested in) new 52 Tim. 

I think a fair amount of writers have affection for Tim because for a lot of them he was "their" robin, but new 52 Tim wasn't that guy. Tynion obviously did some course correction there as part of rebirth, but he got whisked away before we could see the fruits of that labor as far as use in the greater DCU. 

Pre52 Tim was used a fair amount, and we saw in stuff like Gates of Gotham and Black Mirror he was basically DickBat's "Nightwing".

----------


## millernumber1

> I think the issue is writers hated (or just weren't interested in) new 52 Tim. 
> 
> I think a fair amount of writers have affection for Tim because for a lot of them he was "their" robin, but new 52 Tim wasn't that guy. Tynion obviously did some course correction there as part of rebirth, but he got whisked away before we could see the fruits of that labor as far as use in the greater DCU. 
> 
> Pre52 Tim was used a fair amount, and we saw in stuff like Gates of Gotham and Black Mirror he was basically DickBat's "Nightwing".


The thing is, Tynion wrote Tim in Batman #0, and it fits with the way Lobdell wrote Tim. Either he was under strict orders to write Tim consistently with Lobdell's arrogant dude, or Tynion just sees Tim differently.  :Smile:  I personally like the way Tynion writes Tim, from Batman #0 through Eternal to Rebirth.

----------


## Aioros22

Frankly, if they "hated" Tim they wouldn`t have tried to pass him as the best thing since Jesus walked the Earth. The issue to me is not Tim being hated by the same and I think that`s a false premise. The issue is that the writers had a bad level of balance (as in, they didn`t) and left out a good deal of exactly what made the character work for his fanbase. 

Thus, you severed that connection.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Frankly, if they "hated" Tim they wouldn`t have tried to pass him as the best thing since Jesus walked the Earth. The issue to me is not Tim being hated by the same and I think that`s a false premise. The issue is that the writers had a bad level of balance (as in, they didn`t) and left out a good deal of exactly what made the character work for his fanbase. 
> 
> Thus, you severed that connection.


Very true, you can love a character while simultaneously not understanding him. 

I think there's an understandable issue to Tim in that its hard for him to be the "everyman vigilante" hero the way he was as Robin, because he's come along way since then. 

Like Peter Parker, their intelligence and skill strains suspension of disbelief when you try to make them too normal, but at the same time when you go nuts with them (Tim being a supergenius with no "normal" life, Peter being Tony Stark) you're screwing up by going too far into the other direction. 

Tim should be a genius detective (pattern recognition, info retention) and have a fair amount of technological skill, but he shouldn't be the batman equivalent of Mr. Fantastic with his magic tech buildings and robots and what not.  

I was pretty excited when Tynion brought in the scholarship to Ivy University, and I hope the "Tim in college" idea isn't totally scrapped when he returns.

----------


## Alycat

> I don't think they hate him, but Tim suffers from "middle child" problem.


Yep. So writers either don't know what to do with him  or overcompensate with him. Both are terrible and pairing him with Jason was used as a crutch to not to in depth with either of them.

----------


## nightbird

> Yep. So writers either don't know what to do with him  or overcompensate with him. Both are terrible and pairing him with Jason was used as a crutch to not to in depth with either of them.


I felt it was more like "we can't have Dick to be the best buddy with all Robins, we can't have Jason to be jerk to all Robins; let's make it 2 and 2"  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aahz

> Jebus, his relationships with Alfred, Bruce, Tim and to a less certain extent even Damian have been throughly explored since the reboot. The Burger scene plays into that. You just need to understand whatever relationship was set between the two ecxchanging throphies and the grudging respect. 
> 
> The one that has been not explored one bit out of the surface has been Dick and him. 
> 
> Bruce`s relationship is the most explored of them all and explored well. Bruce accepts him because he knows he can trust Jason with the the sort of methods he uses whereas he wouldn`t a Deathstroke. I`m trying to figure out what a "real dark anti-hero" is supposed to be and why that would stop Jason being Jason and either respected or embraced within the family.


But his relation with Tim had no real build up, and sofar they didn't really made the dynamic between them work (the team up in B&RE was not that great), and that he is almost the only Batfamily member who's realtion with Tim was explored is also strange.
And it would also be nice if the they had Jason and Damian team up for story and explore their connection with Talia and the League a little bit more.
And I think there should be more tension between Jason and Dick, Jason shouldn't get along with everybody, he is allready close with Tim, and conflickt between him and Damian or one of the Girls wouldn't really work imo.
But this is getting of topic.


When it comes to Tim they really need to have interact more with Dick and Barbara.

----------


## shadowsgirl

LOL. This is harsh. Poor Tim.  :Big Grin: 

RCO018.jpg

RCO019.jpg

----------


## Atlanta96

I like Damian fine most of the time, but I am somewhat looking forward to the day when he leaves the Robin mantle behind and gets stuck with similarly awful treatment for a while. Hopefully not forever, but a little bit of payback would be nice  :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

> I like Damian fine most of the time, but I am somewhat looking forward to the day when he leaves the Robin mantle behind and gets stuck with similarly awful treatment for a while. Hopefully not forever, but a little bit of payback would be nice


No offense but that sounds silly and petty.  Why wish that on another character? That means that D.C. Haven't learned their lesson at all In regards to legacy characters.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No offense but that sounds silly and petty.  Why wish that on another character? That means that D.C. Haven't learned their lesson at all In regards to legacy characters.


LOL I even said that I don't want him permanently ruined, that's not very petty. But after all the trouble Damian has caused for Tim, a LITTLE bit of payback wouldn't be undeserved.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Frankly, if they "hated" Tim they wouldn`t have tried to pass him as the best thing since Jesus walked the Earth. The issue to me is not Tim being hated by the same and I think that`s a false premise. The issue is that the writers had a bad level of balance (as in, they didn`t) and left out a good deal of exactly what made the character work for his fanbase. 
> 
> Thus, you severed that connection.


The problem with Tim has been that he has been an 'insert role' character since the New-52 started. In TT he was the generic leader who had no personal life. With Tec he was the tech guy(however he didn't last very long to really muster into anything more).

In conclusion, Tim hasn't been put into a situation that allows his character to grow. Further more he has little backstory with the New-52. That only hurt him more. To put it blatantly, Tim really hasn't been given a fair chance to be a well developed character. Compare his treatment to the rest of the Bat boys in the past five years. Being stuffed in overcrowded books for all of his appearances leaves little room for development, which is why he ails in comparison to pre-52 Tim and vitually everyone else in the Bat Family. Hell, even Cass is more developed than this Tim they have not really attempted to build up. We know her likes and dislikes, and also what motivates her to fight the good fight. With Tim.... hears crickets....?

----------


## CPSparkles

> LOL I even said that I don't want him permanently ruined, that's not very petty. But after all the trouble Damian has caused for Tim, a LITTLE bit of payback wouldn't be undeserved.


Yes it is very petty and misdirected. Damian didn't do anything to Tim. He did not take Robin from Tim and does not have creative control over Tim. He is simply a character. The hand that holds the pen killed Tim Drake and while I get your frustration Damian getting awful treatment is not going to achieve anything besides making his fans feel frustrated which is very petty and just mean.

----------


## Dataweaver

> The problem with Tim has been that he has been an 'insert role' character since the New-52 started. In TT he was the generic leader who had no personal life. With Tec he was the tech guy(however he didn't last very long to really muster into anything more).
> 
> In conclusion, Tim hasn't been put into a situation that allows his character to grow. Further more he has little backstory with the New-52. That only hurt him more. To put it blatantly, Tim really hasn't been given a fair chance to be a well developed character. Compare his treatment to the rest of the Bat boys in the past five years. Being stuffed in overcrowded books for all of his appearances leaves little room for development, which is why he ails in comparison to pre-52 Tim and vitually everyone else in the Bat Family. Hell, even Cass is more developed than this Tim they have not really attempted to build up. We know her likes and dislikes, and also what motivates her to fight the good fight. With Tim.... hears crickets....?


That's a bit unfair. He got done development in Detective in addition to being “the tech guy”. Though admittedly most of his arc was dedicated to undoing damage he had acquired during Teen Titans, and his “death” has thus far prevented anyone from capitalizing on what development did occur.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Yes it is very petty and misdirected. Damian didn't do anything to Tim. He did not take Robin from Tim and does not have creative control over Tim. He is simply a character. The hand that holds the pen killed Tim Drake and while I get your frustration Damian getting awful treatment is not going to achieve anything besides making his fans feel frustrated which is very petty and just mean.


Did N52 remove the bit where Damian attempted to murder Tim when they first met?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yes it is very petty and misdirected. Damian didn't do anything to Tim. He did not take Robin from Tim and does not have creative control over Tim. He is simply a character. The hand that holds the pen killed Tim Drake and while I get your frustration Damian getting awful treatment is not going to achieve anything besides making his fans feel frustrated which is very petty and just mean.


I agree. Damian being Robin now has nothing to do with how Tim is being written.

Tim has been written as 'Fill a role' and not as an actual stand alone character which is why he has failed so miserably, not because of Damian(whom I've come to love as well).

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yes it is very petty and misdirected. Damian didn't do anything to Tim. He did not take Robin from Tim and does not have creative control over Tim. He is simply a character. The hand that holds the pen killed Tim Drake and while I get your frustration Damian getting awful treatment is not going to achieve anything besides making his fans feel frustrated which is very petty and just mean.


At least I don't view Damian in the same light as Duke, just imagine what I've had said in that case  :Smile:

----------


## Atlanta96

> The problem with Tim has been that he has been an 'insert role' character since the New-52 started. In TT he was the generic leader who had no personal life. With Tec he was the tech guy(however he didn't last very long to really muster into anything more).
> 
> In conclusion, Tim hasn't been put into a situation that allows his character to grow. Further more he has little backstory with the New-52. That only hurt him more. To put it blatantly, Tim really hasn't been given a fair chance to be a well developed character. Compare his treatment to the rest of the Bat boys in the past five years. Being stuffed in overcrowded books for all of his appearances leaves little room for development, which is why he ails in comparison to pre-52 Tim and vitually everyone else in the Bat Family. Hell, even Cass is more developed than this Tim they have not really attempted to build up. We know her likes and dislikes, and also what motivates her to fight the good fight. With Tim.... hears crickets....?


I'm surprised a Red Robin book wasn't part of the New 52 lineup. I don't think DC was completely anti-Tim at that point and RR was a decent success before the reboot happened. Logically, they'd have continued to treat Tim as a useful character and pushed him in TT as well as a solo hero, but for some reason they kept him in supporting roles only.

I mean, Superboy got his own series, I don't think Kon El was any more popular or profitable than Tim. Maybe they didn't want any more Bat-Books at the time and Tim got the short end of the stick?

----------


## CPSparkles

> LOL I even said that I don't want him permanently ruined, that's not very petty. But after all the trouble Damian has caused for Tim, a LITTLE bit of payback wouldn't be undeserved.


Can I ask exactly what these troubles are that you blame Damian for aside from becoming the new Robin? Robin is not a permanent role others have held and relinquished that title like Damian will someday. It is expected.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That's a bit unfair. He got done development in Detective in addition to being “the tech guy”. Though admittedly most of his arc was dedicated to undoing damage he had acquired during Teen Titans, and his “death” has thus far prevented anyone from capitalizing on what development did occur.


Which is why I pointed out he didn't last very long in tec. We didn't get enough to really get a feel for what Tim might be about. I took that more as a tease, or sample at a lemonade stand. Mind you, the sample was a tasty appetizer. That's a very small portion compared to the years of TT Tim was drenched in.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm surprised a Red Robin book wasn't part of the New 52 lineup. I don't think DC was completely anti-Tim at that point and RR was a decent success before the reboot happened. Logically, they'd have continued to treat Tim as a useful character and pushed him in TT as well as a solo hero, but for some reason they kept him in supporting roles only.
> 
> I mean, Superboy got his own series, I don't think Kon El was any more popular or profitable than Tim. Maybe they didn't want any more Bat-Books at the time and Tim got the short end of the stick?


He definitely got the short stick. He was the only one in the Bat-Fam who didn't have his name attached to a title unlike everyone else.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Did N52 remove the bit where Damian attempted to murder Tim when they first met?


No proof that encounter occurred in the new-52. So yes, I'd say it's been removed

----------


## CPSparkles

> At least I don't view Damian in the same light as Duke, just imagine what I've had said in that case


No you like Damian.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No proof that encounter occurred in the new-52. So yes, I'd say it's been removed


Actually Tim referenced almost being blown up by Damian during one of their New 52 fights, so Damian did at least attempt to murder him. I don't think he said anything about the maiming, so that's up for speculation.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Can I ask exactly what these troubles are that you blame Damian for aside from becoming the new Robin? Robin is not a permanent role others have held and relinquished that title like Damian will someday. It is expected.


But Tim's transition and relationship to his successor were handled in a way that was harmful to his character, and Damian is now dominating most outside media in place of Tim, so if you're a Tim fan Damian is definitely part of the problem. At least he's not a horrible abomination like Duke or Harper, so I don't completely dislike him or anything.

----------


## Assam

> He definitely got the short stick. He was the only one in the Bat-Fam who didn't have his name attached to a title unlike everyone else.


Well, of the BatFam members who were allowed to exist at least...

----------


## CPSparkles

> Did N52 remove the bit where Damian attempted to murder Tim when they first met?


Yes with the nu52 Tim was never Robin so the issues between them never arose. However even if that was still the canon Damian trying to kill Tim within the pages of a comic has nothing to do with the creative direction DC decided to take Tims character in or Dick making Picking Damian as his Robin.
Just like Jason trying to kill Tim has nothing to do with DC's creative choices for Tim.

----------


## sakuyamons

> But Tim's transition and relationship to his successor were handled in a way that was harmful to his character, and Damian is now dominating most outside media in place of Tim, so if you're a Tim fan Damian is definitely part of the problem. At least he's not a horrible abomination like Duke or Harper, so I don't completely dislike him or anything.


I agreed that the transition was done poorly, though it's not like Tim was dominating media before Damian showed up, it was all Dick and the only Tim that we had was a mix between him and Jason Todd.

----------


## CPSparkles

> But Tim's transition and relationship to his successor were handled in a way that was harmful to his character, and Damian is now dominating most outside media in place of Tim, so if you're a Tim fan Damian is definitely part of the problem. At least he's not a horrible abomination like Duke or Harper, so I don't completely dislike him or anything.


But that is not Damian's fault. That's  DC mismanaging their long serving properties.

I like all Robins who don't remind me of Tweety pie so I have no choice but to root for all of them. I want good titles for all of them so I can have more to enjoy.

I can't get behind your wish. Heck as much as I dislike Duke I'm looking forward to him getting a solo so he can free up room in Batman and the batoffice can focus on featuring others finally.

----------


## sakuyamons

Wait. 

Duke is getting a solo?

What.

----------


## KrustyKid

> But Tim's transition and relationship to his successor were handled in a way that was harmful to his character, and Damian is now dominating most outside media in place of Tim, so if you're a Tim fan Damian is definitely part of the problem. At least he's not a horrible abomination like Duke or Harper, so I don't completely dislike him or anything.


Tim really never had any outside media push though, lol

----------


## sakuyamons

> Tim really never had any outside media push though, lol


Does this count? 

IMG_6708.JPG

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Well, of the BatFam members who were allowed to exist at least...


Fair point. Though at least when Cass and Steph finally got the chance to appear they both got roles in an arc that helped to establish who they are as characters. We've had six years and counting since the New-52, and Tim still hasn't even got that.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Does this count? 
> 
> IMG_6708.JPG


Jason and Tim did the fusion dance DBZ style for that one, lol. Though I guess that counts for something. Not so sure about Young Justice Tim though, the guy showed up for like a minute before disappearing off into the sunset like in a cowboy movie.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim really never had any outside media push though, lol


But now that a Robin besides Dick is being pushed, Damian is taking up those opportunities. If Damian didn't exist, Injustice Robin and DCAU Robin might be Tim right now.

----------


## Assam

> Fair point. Though at least when Cass and Steph finally got the chance to appear they both got roles in an arc that helped to establish who they are as characters. We've had six years and counting since the New-52, and Tim still hasn't even got that.


True. 

And even more sad? With Cass and Steph, their fanbases are around the same size as Tim's with comic readers. But Azrael, who although I personally love him more than most of the BatFam, doesn't have close to a fanbase the same size as Tim's, and thrown in with the bits of characterization he's already gotten, his arc in 'Tec will likely fully re-establish him as a character, while Tim is still waiting in limbo.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Jason and Tim did the fusion dance DBZ style for that one, lol. Though I guess that counts for something. Not so sure about Young Justice Tim though, the guy showed up for like a minute before disappearing off into the sunset like in a cowboy movie.


Eh, YJTV Tim got a relationship out of the blue with WG, who needs development when boy's a winner  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Atlanta96

> wait. 
> 
> Duke is getting a solo?
> 
> What.


ARE YOU AS EXCITED AS* i* AM!!?

IMG_0143.JPG

----------


## Assam

> Eh, YJTV Tim got a relationship out of the blue with WG, who needs development when boy's a winner


Let's just hope Tim doesn't go making any heroic sacrifices ala Wally in season 3. We know how Cassie gets when her boyfriends do that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> But now that a Robin besides Dick is being pushed, Damian is taking up those opportunities. If Damian didn't exist, Injustice Robin and DCAU Robin might be Tim right now.


Doubt it. They would have made Dick Robin in both instances :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> True. 
> 
> And even more sad? With Cass and Steph, their fanbases are around the same size as Tim's with comic readers. But Azrael, who although I personally love him more than most of the BatFam, doesn't have close to a fanbase the same size as Tim's, and thrown in with the bits of characterization he's already gotten, his arc in 'Tec will likely fully re-establish him as a character, while Tim is still waiting in limbo.


I'll pass judgement on Tim when they bring him back next year. Not going to hold my breath though.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Let's just hope Tim doesn't go making any heroic sacrifices ala Wally in season 3. We know how Cassie gets when her boyfriends do that.


But YJTV Cassie is closer to her original characterization than Geoff's, so I doubt she gonna join a cult of Tim or whatever  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Doubt it. They would have made Dick Robin in both instances


But they didn't, they made Damian Robin. We've seen Tim as Robin a few times in various media so it's not like there was a boycott against him or anything.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Eh, YJTV Tim got a relationship out of the blue with WG, who needs development when boy's a winner


Knowing Tim's animated luck, in the next season of the first episode of Young Justice Tim will get knocked out by an airplane that falls on him(Batman inc style) rendering him unconscious for the rest of the season. You heard it hear first folks,  :Cool:

----------


## CPSparkles

> But now that a Robin besides Dick is being pushed, Damian is taking up those opportunities. If Damian didn't exist, Injustice Robin and DCAU Robin might be Tim right now.


You have no guarantee of that seeing as when Tim was Robin they still did not use him the one one time they did they just slapped his name on Jason. Dick was always the top pick.

Anyway I'm glad he was introduced he is different to Tim and I like variety also what they are dong with Robin in Injustice 2 Tim could not have pulled off. Have you seen his game play. He's ninja robin with a sword and he is lethal. That's not Tim. 

Tim would never have lost his temper and killed Dick and Tim would not side with the Regime. Damian raised by the LOA it's easy to see why he would sympathise with Superman.

Animatedverse I doubt that they would build a world around a Robin who wasn't the Son of Batman. Robins and the DCAU have been around for time and DC never did this. Robin is only getting such a push because this Robin is the tsundere blood son of Batman who they could sell as his mini me.

----------


## Frontier

> Knowing Tim's animated luck, in the next season of the first episode of Young Justice Tim will get knocked out by an airplane that falls on him(Batman inc style) rendering him unconscious for the rest of the season. You heard it hear first folks,


Or he'll already be dating Steph and someone will make a crack at him having a thing for blonde's  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> But they didn't, they made Damian Robin. We've seen Tim as Robin a few times in various media so it's not like there was a boycott against him or anything.


I still believe they would have gone the Grayson route, Tim's media resume isn't all that great. Plus half the time he's not really in tune with his comic counter part.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Or he'll already be dating Steph and someone will make a crack at him having a thing for blonde's .


Hahahahah. That scene would have to come quick, cus that air plane is going to be coming in with some heat.

On another note, no one gets the ladies quite like Dick in that verse.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You have no guarantee of that seeing as when Tim was Robin they still did not use him the one one time they did they just slapped his name on Jason. Dick was always the top pick.
> 
> Anyway I'm glad he was introduced he is different to Tim and I like variety also what they are dong with Robin in Injustice 2 Tim could not have pulled off. Have you seen his game play. He's ninja robin with a sword and he is lethal. That's not Tim. 
> 
> Tim would never have lost his temper and killed Dick.


You're right, he wouldn't have killed Dick. I'm surprised you think that's a bad thing  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

Everyone in Injustice sucks (though I play the game anyways) so I'm not all that sad that Tim is not there.

Has he appeared on the comic counterpart though?

----------


## Frontier

> Everyone in Injustice sucks (though I play the game anyways) so I'm not all that sad that Tim is not there.
> 
> Has he appeared on the comic counterpart though?


I'm pretty sure he was in the issue with the Teen Titans, who Superman stuck in the Phantom Zone.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Everyone in Injustice sucks (though I play the game anyways) so I'm not all that sad that Tim is not there.
> 
> Has he appeared on the comic counterpart though?


He got sucked into the Phantom Zone with the rest of the Teen Titans.

----------


## sakuyamons

> He got sucked into the Phantom Zone with the rest of the Teen Titans.


Poor boy and his friends can't catch a break.

----------


## Frontier

> Poor boy and his friends can't catch a break.


Conner and Cassie were there too  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## CPSparkles

> You're right, he wouldn't have killed Dick. I'm surprised you think that's a bad thing


It is Dick and Damian have the best relationship ever in the Batfamily so that was horrid.
I cried when it was revealed that dead Dick was still watching over his baby bro and when he gave him Nightwing .......... even in death Dick chose Damian to carry on his mantle.

That was very very heart warming.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Conner and Cassie were there too .


And Bart died on his first scene for what I've saw  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

Well Injustice 2 looks like the story has been retconed anyway Things has changed  so who knows

----------


## sakuyamons

> Well Injustice 2 looks like the story has been retconed anyway Things has changed  so who knows


Maybe I'll get my dream of Cassie beating the heck out Injustice Diana  :Stick Out Tongue:  and maybe Tim will show up as Bruce's 'secret weapon' who knows.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Everyone in Injustice sucks (though I play the game anyways) so I'm not all that sad that Tim is not there.
> 
> Has he appeared on the comic counterpart though?


I'm so looking forward to trying out Damian.

----------


## Alycat

> Did N52 remove the bit where Damian attempted to murder Tim when they first met?


Eh does it really matter when Jason did the same but seems to be forgiven? Stuff like that is why I wish writers didn't skip over relationship development.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I still believe they would have gone the Grayson route, Tim's media resume isn't all that great. Plus half the time he's not really in tune with his comic counter part.


Right now, that's probably a good thing. Let YJTV Tim hew closer to the pre-IC Tim, and don't worry about synching him up with his current comic book portrayal.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Eh does it really matter when Jason did the same but seems to be forgiven? Stuff like that is why I wish writers didn't skip over relationship development.


Are you referring to Hush and its aftermath? If that's still in continuity, I'm as against Jason being “forgiven” for that as I am against Damian's assassination attempt being ignored.  Frankly, the N52 Jason/Tim relationship doesn't make any sense to me.

I _like_ Jason and Damian being the “bad boys” of the Robins, with a more contentious dynamic among the boys as a result.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Right now, that's probably a good thing. Let YJTV Tim hew closer to the pre-IC Tim, and don't worry about synching him up with his current comic book portrayal.


I'm talking about in general. Tim has not truly been adapted like Jason, Dick, and Damian have

----------


## sakuyamons

> Eh does it really matter when Jason did the same but seems to be forgiven? Stuff like that is why I wish writers didn't skip over relationship development.


Did Jason try to kill Tim in n52?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Did Jason try to kill Tim in n52?


I don't believe so. Nothing like that has been hinted at, at least to my knowledge.

----------


## Alycat

> Did Jason try to kill Tim in n52?


It's actually pretty confusing. Statements by Jason and their pancake convo make me think he did, but who knows at this point. 

Dataweavers's statment shows my exact problem in that there is still a lot that seems in limbo concerning what happened.

----------


## godisawesome

I believe a reference to some conflict between the two was confirmed by RHATO under Lobdell, but to be honest, Tim's history with the other members of the Batfamily was made _very_ ambiguous; the natural result of being the only Robin who's history was totally overhauled and being the biggest victim of the attempt to enforce the 5 year timeline.

Which is probably the most frustrating thing about the New 52 changes to the Robins, and to Tim especially: _none of it seemed needed or justified._ I mean, c'mon, it wasn't necessary to screw up the Titans history just so marketing could try and sell N52TT as the first version of the team (especially when they also lacked the most well known roster, which you think would have gone hand-in-hand with that), and the collateral damage from that decision kind of ham-strung Nightwing's history and decimated Tim. And arguably the two Robins who would seem to be the most likely to have major changes, Jason and Damian, didn't really get anything like that because they were still comparatively fresh. DC effectively damaged two valuable and proven IPs because marketing couldn't control themselves; at least the other major hero brands could be argued to need the push, but Nightwing and Red Robin? Heck, those books could have just renumbered (or in Dick's case, just remained a Batman book) and been totally fine.

And that really ties Tim's New 52 problem into my personal pet peeve about comics continuity. There always seems to be this force that wants to regress things back to some "super-marketable" status quo that can then be preserved for all time. The issues Tim experienced were directly related to that: Because DC was frightened of older characters, everything had to be in 5 years, because DC was scared of stupid people getting confused, all the Robins had to be ruthlessly reformatted for specific goals, and because any progressions was the enemy for his philosophy, all of Tim's generation got the shaft since they relied on experienced heroes. And yet for all that reactionary cowardice and Silver Age fanboy fanaticism, it still fails: Batman and Superman are both fathers, the Fab Five Titans are back, and we've got at least ten years shoved back into the timeline.

All that work, and all for nothing. And Tim's still stuck with it.

----------


## Frontier

I think I remember Jason's _Secret Origins_ issue featured him facing off against Bruce and Tim as the new Red Hood. 

And this is New 52 _Secret Origin_s, for the record.

----------


## Dataweaver

> All that work, and all for nothing. And Tim's still stuck with it.


Pretty much this. Though really, Stephanie and Cassandra are the most problematic part of this dilemma: if not for the fact that both have been rebooted as characters who have only just come on the scene, Tim's entire history could easily be reinstated. But without them? Huge chunks of Tim's history are gone.

(This is a mixed bag: with Stephanie's reboot, War Games is gone.)

----------


## Aahz

> You have no guarantee of that seeing as when Tim was Robin they still did not use him the one one time they did they just slapped his name on Jason.


THe DCAU Tim is really more like a alternate Verson of Jason than anything like Tim.




> Did Jason try to kill Tim in n52?


Hard to say, the only time Jason really treid killing the others was BftC (and in case of Tim it was imo almost in self defence, and not really planned), and iirc there has been nothing in the new 52 that showed that BftC happened, and that Jason and Tim ever took on the cowl.

Imo BftC is something they should erase from continuity, like War Games and Cass evil phase it is really something that shouldn't exsist (but unfortunatly BftC has done more permanent damage than those).

----------


## TeenWonder

> Very true, you can love a character while simultaneously not understanding him. 
> 
> I think there's an understandable issue to Tim in that its hard for him to be the "everyman vigilante" hero the way he was as Robin, because he's come along way since then. 
> 
> Like Peter Parker, their intelligence and skill strains suspension of disbelief when you try to make them too normal, but at the same time when you go nuts with them (Tim being a supergenius with no "normal" life, Peter being Tony Stark) you're screwing up by going too far into the other direction. 
> 
> Tim should be a genius detective (pattern recognition, info retention) and have a fair amount of technological skill, but he shouldn't be the batman equivalent of Mr. Fantastic with his magic tech buildings and robots and what not.  
> 
> I was pretty excited when Tynion brought in the scholarship to Ivy University, and I hope the "Tim in college" idea isn't totally scrapped when he returns.


^This! Since It`s the freaking robot building that bothered me the most. I mean I get that Tim could be that smart if he wanted to or had enough time! But surprise, he doesn`t. He is a detective first and scientist later. 

I personally hope that they would make something with him Ivy University as well. Perhaps have him be a normal teenager for a while but in the end not being able to adapt to a normal life any longer and something goes awfully wrong which leds him to sort of accept his life as Red Robin and have his initial return to Gotham while also taking something away from his time in the college.

----------


## KrustyKid

> ^This! Since It`s the freaking robot building that bothered me the most. I mean I get that Tim could be that smart if he wanted to or had enough time! But surprise, he doesn`t. He is a detective first and scientist later. 
> 
> I personally hope that they would make something with him Ivy University as well. Perhaps have him be a normal teenager for a while but in the end not being able to adapt to a normal life any longer and something goes awfully wrong which leds him to sort of accept his life as Red Robin and have his initial return to Gotham while also taking something away from his time in the college.


I'd be down for something like this.

----------


## Assam

https://www.change.org/p/dc-comi-mak...rake-big-again

It's not that I'm surprised that this exits; just amused.

----------


## KrustyKid

Back in the day,
tumblr_opt01dz7Fd1vx2oqro1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Spoiler from Bleeding Cool about Detective #956

"the final speech balloons at the bottom were originally Batman vowing to find Tim Drake, who he knows is alive after the events of The Button, with an editor’s note on the panel to that effect."

----------


## sakuyamons

> Spoiler from Bleeding Cool about Detective #956
> 
> "the final speech balloons at the bottom were originally Batman vowing to find Tim Drake, who he knows is alive after the events of The Button, with an editor’s note on the panel to that effect."


He's Returning.

and his friends too hopefully.

I can assume we are getting a Mr. Oz cameo at the end of the button with Tim on it.

----------


## Atlanta96

It's too bad Tim's return will probably be handled in 'Tec, there's better writers for the job. Unfortunately Tynion seems to be the only guy at DC with any real enthusiasm for Tim so that's who he's stuck with.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's actually pretty confusing. Statements by Jason and their pancake convo make me think he did, but who knows at this point. 
> 
> Dataweavers's statment shows my exact problem in that there is still a lot that seems in limbo concerning what happened.


The only thing that has been stated about what is continuity is this: 

a) There was a conflito of sorts (rooftop conversation where both make amends while shitting Alfred`s pancakes). 

b) Flashbacks refering to UTRH show Tim taking the place of Nigthwing when Red Hood fought Batman so there`s a chance that`s the conflit they are adressing. 

Out of that, there`s little to be forgiven other than the usual "your way is ot my way". 

b)

----------


## Frontier

> Spoiler from Bleeding Cool about Detective #956
> 
> "the final speech balloons at the bottom were originally Batman vowing to find Tim Drake, who he knows is alive after the events of The Button, with an editor’s note on the panel to that effect."


Huh, so that was legit and not something Reddit made up?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Huh, so that was legit and not something Reddit made up?


It seems that way. I still think Tim's "death" was totally pointless. He went MIA for what purpose exactly? What a waste of time and potential character development.

----------


## Atlanta96

> It seems that way. I still think Tim's "death" was totally pointless. He went MIA for what purpose exactly? What a waste of time and potential character development.


Yeah, I'm done making excuses for Tim's treatment. A few months ago I might have argued that future stories might provide a good reason for keeping him in limbo for a time, but it's taken so long that I don't even care about the explanation anymore. I just want him back, and written like his old self again.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Yeah, I'm done making excuses for Tim's treatment. A few months ago I might have argued that future stories might provide a good reason for keeping him in limbo for a time, but it's taken so long that I don't even care about the explanation anymore. I just want him back, and written like his old self again.


I think he will stay in limbo. Batman knows he is alive, but that's it. It will take time to find him. Or maybe Tim will escape, but who knows when...

----------


## sakuyamons

> It seems that way. I still think Tim's "death" was totally pointless. He went MIA for what purpose exactly? What a waste of time and potential character development.


Agreed. Especially when everyone in 'tec is doing decent in terms of development which he could've benefitted greatly.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think he will stay in limbo. Batman knows he is alive, but that's it. It will take time to find him. Or maybe Tim will escape, but who knows when...


I think 90% of DC staff stopped caring about Tim once Damian showed up. I mean, who wants to write the "boring" nice boy when you can write the crazy, edgy bad boy? Let's face it, Tim is obsolete.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think he will stay in limbo. Batman knows he is alive, but that's it. It will take time to find him. Or maybe Tim will escape, but who knows when...


I'm thinking anywhere from January to April of next year.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I think 90% of DC staff stopped caring about Tim once Damian showed up. I mean, who wants to write the "boring" nice boy when you can write the crazy, edgy bad boy? Let's face it, Tim is obsolete.


While I agree that Tim has gotten the short end of the stick, Damian is none of those things, not even when he first showed up.

----------


## Atlanta96

> While I agree that Tim has gotten the short end of the stick, Damian is none of those things, not even when he first showed up.


Well Tim is being screwed over so it doesn't matter.

----------


## Assam

> Damian is none of those things, not even when he first showed up.


Evil Brat.jpg

evil monkey.jpg

I mean when he FIRST showed up, yeah, he kinda was...Pretty much downright evil, actually. 

(As an aside, I guarantee you that these scene would not have happened the way they did had Morrison planned from the start for Damian to live past his initial story)

----------


## Atlanta96

And even in the past year he's had a couple of somewhat sociopathic moments. He's very much a bad boy. At least, for a 13 year old.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Attachment 49329
> 
> Attachment 49330
> 
> I mean when he FIRST showed up, yeah, he kinda was...Pretty much downright evil, actually. 
> 
> (As an aside, I guarantee you that these scene would not have happened the way they did had Morrison planned from the start for Damian to live past his initial story)


I'd say that he was evil, but he wasn't "psycho" or "edgy". 

But that Tim and Damian are so different from each other should mean that can coexist on the DCU.

----------


## Frontier

> It seems that way. I still think Tim's "death" was totally pointless. He went MIA for what purpose exactly? What a waste of time and potential character development.


He probably went MIA because the entire Young Justice generation is pretty much MIA right now. It's connected.

----------


## sakuyamons

> He probably went MIA because the entire Young Justice generation is pretty much MIA right now. It's connected.


Maybe they are going to find a well to make him Robin again.

----------


## Assam

> But that Tim and Damian are so different from each other should mean that can coexist on the DCU.


All 5 Robins are so different they really should be able to get equal treatment with their own distinctive niches. A lot of us here have pitched ideas for how. This is the case for most legacies, which makes it all the more frustrating when it feels like DC purposely wants fans to fight against one another. 




> He probably went MIA because the entire Young Justice generation is pretty much MIA right now. It's connected.


Pretty much what I figured.

----------


## Atlanta96

> He probably went MIA because the entire Young Justice generation is pretty much MIA right now. It's connected.


Then why was Tim there at the start of Rebirth when the others were nowhere to be seen?

----------


## Frontier

> Then why was Tim there at the start of Rebirth when the others were nowhere to be seen?


Mystery and foreshadowing...

----------


## Assam

> Foreshadowing...


THAT...and also because Tynion was writing 'Tec and probably really wanted to use him before his trip to limbo, and subsequently never let anyone stop talking about how awesome he is.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim's exile can be justified provided he's getting an overhaul similar to Superman's, along with possibly the rest of his generation. There seemed to be a lot of evidence that DC higher-ups still valued his IP even when they demonstrated a lack of understanding for it; its says something that Tim is the last of the male Robins to have "died" in some form or another. It's quite possible that everyone agreed he needed to be "Rebirthed", but since they'd done such a hatchet job to the rest of his generation, it would be unwise to rush him through a first issue repackaging; Cass and Steph were kind of already Rebirthed in their return, and considering how they and everyone else were integrated into Tim's previous history, they may have simply decided that they should prep for his repackaging off-stage, so to speak.

Tynion seems like the favorite to actually handle Tim's reintroduction. I'd still pay good money to see Nicieza or someone like that handle it, though.




> THAT...and also because Tynion was writing 'Tec and probably really wanted to use him before his trip to limbo, and subsequently never let anyone stop talking about how awesome he is.


It may be character shilling, but it's an effective way to maintain demand for an absent character, like what they did with Lex Luthor on Lois and Clark after he died in Season 1, so his returns later on would be hyped. And seeing them do stuff like having Armstrong focus on Tim's costume feels a bit like the wrestling trick where the "heel" who's present carried on the feud while the "face" is offstage, sometimes for medical help.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'd say that he was evil, but he wasn't "psycho" or "edgy". 
> 
> But that Tim and Damian are so different from each other should mean that can coexist on the DCU.


Damian certainly has more edge to him than Tim, at least in comparison.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> Tim's exile can be justified provided he's getting an overhaul similar to Superman's, along with possibly the rest of his generation. There seemed to be a lot of evidence that DC higher-ups still valued his IP even when they demonstrated a lack of understanding for it; its says something that Tim is the last of the male Robins to have "died" in some form or another. It's quite possible that everyone agreed he needed to be "Rebirthed", but since they'd done such a hatchet job to the rest of his generation, it would be unwise to rush him through a first issue repackaging; Cass and Steph were kind of already Rebirthed in their return, and considering how they and everyone else were integrated into Tim's previous history, they may have simply decided that they should prep for his repackaging off-stage, so to speak.


That's what I'm hoping too. DC has to see that there are many people wanting a Young Justice Rebirth, so it would be great to have Tim/Conner/Cassie/Bart repackaged properly. Young Justice cartoon is obviously not the same, but the demand on that show in name has to count for something too.

----------


## Red obin

> So Damian's shaders in Injustice 2 have zome pretty cool names inspired by other Robins such as a Blue/Yellow shader caled Nightwing's flight, a grey shader called Agent 37 and a white(?) shader called Red Robin.


I thought I would repost this here. Even though Drake is not in the game, he gets a nice shoutout with a horrible shader. This also pretty much deconfirms any chance of him appearing.Attachment 49340

----------


## Sardorim

They really hate Tim.

Lost in the Phantom Zone in the Injustice comic.

Batman never looks for him.

We see a scene of Dick dying, Jason dying and Damian in lock up in Injustice 2 comic.

Nothing for Tim. That's wrong.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tynion seems like the favorite to actually handle Tim's reintroduction. I'd still pay good money to see Nicieza or someone like that handle it, though.


Chuck Dixon would be better!

----------


## sakuyamons

> Chuck Dixon would be better!


True!

But there are dreams that cannot be  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> True!
> 
> But there are dreams that cannot be


I'm not dreaming of that. I used to, but then I made the mistake of looking up Dixon's political views. 

Stupid me.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I think 90% of DC staff stopped caring about Tim once Damian showed up. I mean, who wants to write the "boring" nice boy when you can write the crazy, edgy bad boy? Let's face it, Tim is obsolete.


We agree on something

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I don't agree that Damian makes Tim obsolete, unless Tim can only thrive as Robin, which I feel Red Robin (Nicieza series) commercial success disproved. 

Not everybody wants to write/read about the edgy guy. Tim's core competency as a character was being Peter Parker meets Batman. Except now, much like Peter, he's being taken too far (Peter owning his own company, Tim building robot buildings). Marvel is correcting with Spectacular Spider-Man, which looks to bring Peter more down to earth. Hopefully DC will do the same and bring that balance back to the character.

----------


## Atlanta96

> We agree on something


You do realize I only think Tim is obsolete in the sense that writers and editorial hate him, right? I still think he's by far the best Robin and should be way more exposed right now.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't agree that Damian makes Tim obsolete, unless Tim can only thrive as Robin, which I feel Red Robin (Nicieza series) commercial success disproved. 
> 
> Not everybody wants to write/read about the edgy guy. Tim's core competency as a character was being Peter Parker meets Batman. Except now, much like Peter, he's being taken too far (Peter owning his own company, Tim building robot buildings). Marvel is correcting with Spectacular Spider-Man, which looks to bring Peter more down to earth. Hopefully DC will do the same and bring that balance back to the character.


There will always be readers who love Tim and he will always have a place in the DCU. The problem is a company that overwhelmingly sees no value in him and would rather ignore him. He could be a orofitable character if they used him properly, but nobody besides James Tynion wants to.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm not dreaming of that. I used to, but then I made the mistake of looking up Dixon's political views. 
> 
> Stupid me.


Given the choice between a well written Tim Drake or blacklisting a person you personally dislike,  I'm pretty sure the former is more important.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> There will always be readers who love Tim and he will always have a place in the DCU. The problem is a company that overwhelmingly sees no value in him and would rather ignore him. He could be a orofitable character if they used him properly, but nobody besides James Tynion wants to.


I'm an optimist, so I hope writers do want to write him (outside of the constraints of the new 52, which was ass) besides Tynion, but he is on the shelf until Rebirth concludes. Heck, they may have a good writer on deck who is set to write a new Young Justice comic, but that can't happen until Doomsday Clock. 




> Given the choice between a well written Tim Drake or blacklisting a person you personally dislike,  I'm pretty sure the former is more important.


Agreed. I am not at all aligned with Dixon politically but I'd still shit bricks (of happiness) if this happened.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> Not everybody wants to write/read about the edgy guy. Tim's core competency as a character was being Peter Parker meets Batman. Except now, much like Peter, he's being taken too far (Peter owning his own company, Tim building robot buildings). Marvel is correcting with Spectacular Spider-Man, which looks to bring Peter more down to earth. Hopefully DC will do the same and bring that balance back to the character.


That's exactly what I think. I'm tired of reading the edgy guy. I want Tim to be more down to Earth and to go on his own adventures that he gets by with a combination of skills/intellect but still rooted in a more realistic tone.

----------


## sakuyamons

So I was fooling around on twitter and look who seems to appear on Cyborg's story.

IMG_6872.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Oh man, that double R makes an appearance outside of Rebirth.

----------


## Frontier

> So I was fooling around on twitter and look who seems to appear on Cyborg's story.
> 
> IMG_6872.jpg


It's weird to see Starfire wearing her Rebirth costume when she looks completely different in-game  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Although I guess Tim is also in his Rebirth costume, so it's at least consistent...

----------


## Sardorim

Yet none of them in Injustice Universe even looked for him.

Depending on which ending is canon we may see Tim return after all but evil due to where he has been trapped for years and Bruce gave up on him.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Yet none of them in Injustice Universe even looked for him.
> 
> Depending on which ending is canon we may see Tim return after all but evil due to where he has been trapped for years and Bruce gave up on him.


Is he still alive on I2?

----------


## Aioros22

In the comic he`s trapped in the Phantom Zone.

----------


## godisawesome

> In the comic he`s trapped in the Phantom Zone.


Yep, and now that Red Hood's DLC it means that Injustice is technically the first multi-media platform to officially land all four Robins in some shape or form. I really hope they make a DLC version of Damian that can be geared for Dick and Tim.

----------


## Atlanta96

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05...rake-spoilers/

SMH

----------


## shadowsgirl

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/05...rake-spoilers/
> 
> SMH


This is getting ridiculous. Tim is in limbo for 8 months. I don't want to wait until November for the Doomsday Clock event. Enough is enough.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This is getting ridiculous. Tim is in limbo for 8 months. I don't want to wait until November for the Doomsday Clock event. Enough is enough.


Tim has been so unlucky lately you'd think he was Peter Parker. And some people have the nerve to say his fans should be grateful for how he's been treated, and that Tim is high up on DC's hierarchy. Ridiculous.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim has been so unlucky lately you'd think he was Peter Parker. And some people have the nerve to say his fans should be grateful for how he's been treated, and that Tim is high up on DC's hierarchy. Ridiculous.


Some people are clearly delusional. DC treats Tim like trash for years. He became the unwanted middle child.

----------


## Frontier

I'm not saying anyone should be grateful to DC, I'm just willing to wait and see what they have in store with him before I make any decisions.

----------


## Alycat

> So I was fooling around on twitter and look who seems to appear on Cyborg's story.
> 
> Attachment 49482


I like that they went with this over his outfit from the Injustice comic that was more like the og  Red Robin suit. Just fits better here.

----------


## Red obin

> Yep, and now that Red Hood's DLC it means that Injustice is technically the first multi-media platform to officially *land all four Robins* in some shape or form. I really hope they make a DLC version of Damian that can be geared for Dick and Tim.


*Cough* There is 5 Robins *Cough*

----------


## Assam

> *Cough* There is 5 Robins *Cough*


QFT

10char

----------


## KrustyKid

> I like that they went with this over his outfit from the Injustice comic that was more like the og  Red Robin suit. Just fits better here.


I agree with this

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> This is getting ridiculous. Tim is in limbo for 8 months. I don't want to wait until November for the Doomsday Clock event. Enough is enough.


I'm trying to figure this out myself. Why was any mention of Tim taken out of both issues? Is something going on with the storyline behind the scenes that we don't know about? I'm also thinking that Johns may have just figured out what he actually wants to do with this story as a whole, but still. Taking out even mentioning him seems very odd.

----------


## The Whovian

> This is getting ridiculous. Tim is in limbo for 8 months. I don't want to wait until November for the Doomsday Clock event. Enough is enough.


Yeah, I figured Tim would be gone for a year at the most. Now it looks like he won't be back until the end of the year at the earliest. Really a bummer  :Frown:

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I'm not saying anyone should be grateful to DC, I'm just willing to wait and see what they have in store with him before I make any decisions.


But we have heard this stuff when it came to others like

John Stewart
Wally West
Cassandra Cain
Stephanie Brown
Static
Vixen
Cyborg
Shazam

All we heard was be patient or be thankful for crumbs. Yet we have seen fans be down right brutal to get what they wanted-see X-Men who made it their business to destroy Inhumans and their fans. Even if it meant be nasty to a little girl reading Moon Girl.

It gets to the point of if you don't care for these guys-be HONEST and say it.

And accept the consequences of that choice.

----------


## Dataweaver

> *Cough* There is 5 Robins *Cough*


In all seriousness, I really want to see DC figure out some way to get Stephanie into her Robin outfit at least once in the New continuity. I'd even settle for it just being a costume party, with Cassandra in her pre-Flashpoint Batgirl costume, Stephanie in her Robin costume, and a Tim showing up as Mr. Sarcastic. If that costume party crosses paths with some sort of criminal activity so that we get to see Cass-Batgirl, Steph-Robin, and Mr. Sarcastic in action, so much the better.

----------


## Assam

> In all seriousness, I really want to see DC figure out some way to get Stephanie into her Robin outfit at least once in the New continuity. I'd even settle for it just being a costume party, with Cassandra in her pre-Flashpoint Batgirl costume, Stephanie in her Robin costume, and a Tim showing up as Mr. Sarcastic. If that costume party crosses paths with some sort of criminal activity so that we get to see Cass-Batgirl, Steph-Robin, and Mr. Sarcastic in action, so much the better.


You are a genius for this idea, and this needs to happen!  :Wink:  Seriously, I love it!

I may want Cass and Steph's time as Batgirl/Robin brought back into continuity, but this would be the 2nd best option.

----------


## Badou

> In all seriousness, I really want to see DC figure out some way to get Stephanie into her Robin outfit at least once in the New continuity. I'd even settle for it just being a costume party, with Cassandra in her pre-Flashpoint Batgirl costume, Stephanie in her Robin costume, and a Tim showing up as Mr. Sarcastic. If that costume party crosses paths with some sort of criminal activity so that we get to see Cass-Batgirl, Steph-Robin, and Mr. Sarcastic in action, so much the better.


Didn't they do that with Carrie Kelly while she was appearing in the New 52? She was at a party and was in her Robin costume in the Batman and Robin book.

----------


## Dataweaver

Oh, yes. The new 52 Carrie Kelly, the almost Robin who wasn't.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> Oh, yes. The new 52 Carrie Kelly, the almost Robin who wasn't.


Hahaha...I totally forgot about that!

----------


## shadowsgirl

I wonder how many times this happened.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> I wonder how many times this happened.    
> 
> 1.jpg
> 
> 2.jpg
> 
> 3.jpg


Probably more times than they would like.

----------


## Frontier

Heh, Bruce has no idea how to properly fold clothes  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> Heh, Bruce has no idea how to properly fold clothes .


B-man needs to up his fold game

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is really relaxing. And Tim looks so happy, I like it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

> I wonder how many times this happened.    
> 
> 1.jpg
> 
> 2.jpg
> 
> 3.jpg


"The skills Nightwing taught you."  Climbing into ladies' windows and making them swoon.

----------


## KrustyKid

> "The skills Nightwing taught you."  Climbing into ladies' windows and making them swoon.


No one does it better than Dick :Wink:

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim/Steph

tumblr_oq8mazUhAE1sn3fcco2_1280.jpg

----------


## yohyoi

> Tim/Steph
> 
> tumblr_oq8mazUhAE1sn3fcco2_1280.jpg


Looks like Tim is learning them skills.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Tim has been so unlucky lately you'd think he was Peter Parker. And some people have the nerve to say his fans should be grateful for how he's been treated, and that Tim is high up on DC's hierarchy. Ridiculous.


DC has dumped on much of Dixon's work in my opinion.   Tim made Robin cool.   He had his own book for almost 200 issues!   

I'd prefer they restore his proper place as the third Robin.   I'm coming back to comics after a long hiatus because of money and anger over all the changes, New 52 etc.

----------


## Atlanta96

> DC has dumped on much of Dixon's work in my opinion.   Tim made Robin cool.   He had his own book for almost 200 issues!   
> 
> I'd prefer they restore his proper place as the third Robin.   I'm coming back to comics after a long hiatus because of money and anger over all the changes, New 52 etc.


There's an undeniable hatred of many legacy characters at DC, especially the ones who replaced certain people's favorites. Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and Tim. I'm guessing Didio was a Jason fan.

----------


## sakuyamons

> There's an undeniable hatred of many legacy characters at DC, especially the ones who replaced certain people's favorites. Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and Tim. I'm guessing Didio was a Jason fan.


Ain't Didio a Tim fan though?

Well certainly he don't act like it but...

----------


## KrustyKid

red_robin_by_jasontodd1fan-db9ifvr.jpg

Wasn't too bad for an alt

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ain't Didio a Tim fan though?
> 
> Well certainly he don't act like it but...


Possibly, in the sense that Annie Wilkes was a fan of Paul Sheldon.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> There's an undeniable hatred of many legacy characters at DC, especially the ones who replaced certain people's favorites. Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and Tim. I'm guessing Didio was a Jason fan.





> Ain't Didio a Tim fan though?
> 
> Well certainly he don't act like it but...


No doubt Didio and Johns are pre-Crisis fans for sure.   Wally was my Flash, and I think Barry being back kind of ruins the special moment in the Crisis.   I liked Kyle too, but there are thousands of GL's so it's not a big deal.   Tim brought back a character that was gone.   It sold very well, there honestly was no reason to make him not Robin.   They let Morrison do whatever he wanted to, and Tim was pushed out.   I can see characters growing, but to make him not be Robin with New 52 was disrespectful.

----------


## Atlanta96

> No doubt Didio and Johns are pre-Crisis fans for sure.   Wally was my Flash, and I think Barry being back kind of ruins the special moment in the Crisis.   I liked Kyle too, but there are thousands of GL's so it's not a big deal.   Tim brought back a character that was gone.   It sold very well, there honestly was no reason to make him not Robin.   They let Morrison do whatever he wanted to, and Tim was pushed out.   I can see characters growing, but to make him not be Robin with New 52 was disrespectful.


Leaving the mantle behind is a natural evolution that every Robin goes through eventually. I don't like how the transition was handled but I think, after almost 20 years as Robin, it was his time to evolve. The problem is that they A) Failed to give him a unique identity that he could make his own, and B) They cancelled his solo book and stuck him in one of the worst DC comics ever as his main role throughout the New 52. He's had little to no good writing or development for the past 5 years, and I don't think the company even cares about him anymore.

BTW that was my avatar when I first joined the site, it threw me off for a second  :Smile:

----------


## scary harpy

> Attachment 49765
> 
> Wasn't too bad for an alt


Looks good to me.

----------


## yohyoi

> Leaving the mantle behind is a natural evolution that every Robin goes through eventually. I don't like how the transition was handled but I think, after almost 20 years as Robin, it was his time to evolve. The problem is that they A) Failed to give him a unique identity that he could make his own, and B) They cancelled his solo book and stuck him in one of the worst DC comics ever as his main role throughout the New 52. He's had little to no good writing or development for the past 5 years, and I don't think the company even cares about him anymore.
> 
> BTW that was my avatar when I first joined the site, it threw me off for a second


The unique identity is the important one.

When Dick was moving out of the Robin mantle, he was the leader of the New Teen Titans, DC's most popular comic at that time. His goal was to move out of Bruce's shadow and not be consumed with the mission as Bruce. He was growing up which was rare in comic books, especially at that time. In the end, we saw him become his own man and a great leader.

Jason is defined by his death. His resurrection and everything that happened after always comes back to his death. It's his center and defining moment, same as the moment when Bruce's parents died. He was the Robin that Bruce failed.

What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?


Personally I think his unique trait is that he has earned everything he has through his own determination and his willpower.

----------


## josai21

I think each of the Robins in some way carry with them a unique facet of Batman's character.

Dick represents the heart and the mission.

Jason represents the darkness and the fear.

Tim represents the mind and the will.

Tim's character is not naturally physically gifted like many of the other robins. He had to overcome his struggles with willpower and strategy. That is what makes Tim Drake different. Tim is the chess player. He is the detective. Both Dick and Jason are mostly at peace with who they are. Tim has an inner struggle of becoming like bruce versus not being a career crime fighter.

----------


## Buried Alien

> What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?


He wanted to be Robin, not in a selfish way, but because he believed in the importance of Robin's role in the life and crimefighting activities of Batman.

Dick and Jason became Robin through circumstances they did not anticipate.  Tim actively sought out the role.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## DragonPiece

Another month with no Tim, I'm starting to feel bad.

----------


## The Whovian

> What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?


I think Tim, out of all of them, is the most gifted and untapped ability to learn and master the technique of fighting styles. Shiva has stated this on more than one occasion. He just seems to have the most will and determination to succeed at all costs.

----------


## The Whovian

> Personally I think his unique trait is that he has earned everything he has through his own determination and his willpower.


Agreed 100% on this

----------


## The Whovian

> I think each of the Robins in some way carry with them a unique facet of Batman's character.
> 
> Dick represents the heart and the mission.
> 
> Jason represents the darkness and the fear.
> 
> Tim represents the mind and the will.
> 
> Tim's character is not naturally physically gifted like many of the other robins. He had to overcome his struggles with willpower and strategy. That is what makes Tim Drake different. Tim is the chess player. He is the detective. Both Dick and Jason are mostly at peace with who they are. Tim has an inner struggle of becoming like bruce versus not being a career crime fighter.


Yeah, pretty much all of this too

----------


## The Whovian

> Another month with no Tim, I'm starting to feel bad.


I know. I'm really starting to miss him. I'm hoping that he'll be back by the end of this year.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?


Tim found out who Batman was and then proved he could help Batman without the suit at first an then with it.

He also proved Robin can be his OWN person without Batman.

He made Robin more than a side kick or partner.

That's why it's annoying about how he was done by DC.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The unique identity is the important one.
> 
> When Dick was moving out of the Robin mantle, he was the leader of the New Teen Titans, DC's most popular comic at that time. His goal was to move out of Bruce's shadow and not be consumed with the mission as Bruce. He was growing up which was rare in comic books, especially at that time. In the end, we saw him become his own man and a great leader.
> 
> Jason is defined by his death. His resurrection and everything that happened after always comes back to his death. It's his center and defining moment, same as the moment when Bruce's parents died. He was the Robin that Bruce failed.
> 
> What do you think defines Tim Drake? What makes him unique as a character, not just a Robin? What does he have that the others don't?


Historically, he was the everyman Robin. The mild mannered, relatable kid with no exaggerated traits. He was smart but not a super genius, he occasionally had his insecurities and fears but was always mentally stable. This started to change later on, first in a good way with the Red Robin series, then in a bad way with the New 52. But I still think of Tim as the best audience surrogate character in all of comics.

----------


## godisawesome

> There's an undeniable hatred of many legacy characters at DC, especially the ones who replaced certain people's favorites. Wally West, Kyle Rayner, and Tim. I'm guessing Didio was a Jason fan.


While I think that's kind of true for some of the choices being made regarding DC's IPs, I don't know if that applies to Tim as much as what I regard as the true enemy of DC's legacy characters: an over-enthusiastic, lowest-common-denominator marketing philosophy seeking to consolidate fan bases, when that doesn't really work. For comparison's sake, I'm going to contrast DC's treatment of him (and the other boy Robins) with their treatment of their Batgirl characters.

Didio and others clearly had faith in Tim as an IP, thanks to their attempt to use his fanbase as a core for Teen Titans and as a centerpiece for Future's End, and even in Rebirth, he was the only TEC character to get a meaningful redesign for the new era. there is some circumstantial evidence that Didio views Tim favorably; stuff like Didio teasing a comic-con audience about a Tim solo and the characters continued presence does that. In contrast, DC executives clearly did not like Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain; both characters were sent to limbo/killed once before the New 52, and it always reeked of spite that even an unnamed cameo in Lil' Gotham became the only thing recolored in publication to obfuscate the cameo.

Tim's problem is simply a quieter version of the same element that was exacerbated by DC's distaste for the other Batgirls; a believe that the story *must* be simplified, and that any and all "redundancies" must be eliminated. Since DC has faith in all 4 of the boy Robins as IPs, all four were given books where they were, if not the star, the de facto lead; remember, Tim was the only Titan to get a #0 issue origin (even though it *sucked*). But DC's marketing department probably freaked out at the whole "four Robins in five years" thing, and compounded that by trying to cram Tim and Dick's characteristics into both characters instead of diversifying them to make them more "marketable," and adding in a believe that he *needed* a new origin, all that, and it screwed him up. 

But at least DC still values his market value, and did so throughout the New 52. I still see that, especially in comparison to their near fanatical belief that they market cannot support either multiple Batgirls or a smart one (just in comparison; if Babsgirl is *needed*, she should have Oracle's smarts), and their clear believe that Silver Age characters are superior in part because they have simpler, easier-to-package origins. I mean, c'mon, Wally West is clearly the best Flash, but that's because he picked up and built on Barry's legacy; in the same way, Tim held 200 issues and is a clear success as an audience surrogate, but it's easier to sum up Damian's origin and then screw his character up.

----------


## yohyoi

> While I think that's kind of true for some of the choices being made regarding DC's IPs, I don't know if that applies to Tim as much as what I regard as the true enemy of DC's legacy characters: an over-enthusiastic, lowest-common-denominator marketing philosophy seeking to consolidate fan bases, when that doesn't really work. For comparison's sake, I'm going to contrast DC's treatment of him (and the other boy Robins) with their treatment of their Batgirl characters.
> 
> Didio and others clearly had faith in Tim as an IP, thanks to their attempt to use his fanbase as a core for Teen Titans and as a centerpiece for Future's End, and even in Rebirth, he was the only TEC character to get a meaningful redesign for the new era. there is some circumstantial evidence that Didio views Tim favorably; stuff like Didio teasing a comic-con audience about a Tim solo and the characters continued presence does that. In contrast, DC executives clearly did not like Stephanie Brown or Cassandra Cain; both characters were sent to limbo/killed once before the New 52, and it always reeked of spite that even an unnamed cameo in Lil' Gotham became the only thing recolored in publication to obfuscate the cameo.
> 
> Tim's problem is simply a quieter version of the same element that was exacerbated by DC's distaste for the other Batgirls; a believe that the story *must* be simplified, and that any and all "redundancies" must be eliminated. Since DC has faith in all 4 of the boy Robins as IPs, all four were given books where they were, if not the star, the de facto lead; remember, Tim was the only Titan to get a #0 issue origin (even though it *sucked*). But DC's marketing department probably freaked out at the whole "four Robins in five years" thing, and compounded that by trying to cram Tim and Dick's characteristics into both characters instead of diversifying them to make them more "marketable," and adding in a believe that he *needed* a new origin, all that, and it screwed him up. 
> 
> But at least DC still values his market value, and did so throughout the New 52. I still see that, especially in comparison to their near fanatical belief that they market cannot support either multiple Batgirls or a smart one (just in comparison; if Babsgirl is *needed*, she should have Oracle's smarts), and their clear believe that Silver Age characters are superior in part because they have simpler, easier-to-package origins. I mean, c'mon, Wally West is clearly the best Flash, but that's because he picked up and built on Barry's legacy; in the same way, Tim held 200 issues and is a clear success as an audience surrogate, but it's easier to sum up Damian's origin and then screw his character up.


I never looked it that way before. Thanks for the good viewpoint on how DC sees Legacy characters.

----------


## Atlanta96

It's because of this obsession with the Silver Age/SA style writing that I kind of hate that era in general. It's a period of silly, stupid stories that have come to bite modern comics in the ass.

----------


## KrustyKid

Curious. When you guys are reading Dick, Tim, Jason, and Damian.. is their a particular voice you hear for any of them?

----------


## Assam

> Curious. When you guys are reading Dick, Tim, Jason, and Damian.. is their a particular voice you hear for any of them?


Obviously the voice changes over time, sometimes influenced by my own thoughts, other times influenced by outside media. As of late, for Dick and Damian I hear their voices from the "DCAbridgedUniverse" (Their Dick especially is perfectly cast), Jason I hear Jensen Ackles, and for Tim, he has his own unique voice in my head, not too sure how to describe it.

----------


## Frontier

> Curious. When you guys are reading Dick, Tim, Jason, and Damian.. is their a particular voice you hear for any of them?


Dick I alternate between Loren Lester, Jesse McCartney, or some variant of the two. 

Tim I tend to hear as like Sean Marquette, at least as Robin. Red Robin is a little more Cameron Bowen. 

Jason is usually some variant of Jensen Ackles. 

Damain is a completely original voice.

----------


## shadowsgirl

The official Batman Facebook page posted this. Interesting, it's a surprise they care about Tim and Steph's relationship.

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/05...n?sf81643894=1

----------


## Assam

> The official Batman Facebook page posted this. Interesting, it's a surprise they care about Tim and Steph's relationship.
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/05...n?sf81643894=1


I saw. I'm frankly AMAZED DC would allow an image of Steph as Robin on their website considering how much they want to deny her equal status with the boys. Although they didn't even bring up her being Batgirl. Hmmmm.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I saw. I'm frankly AMAZED DC would allow an image of Steph as Robin on their website considering how much they want to deny her equal status with the boys. Although they didn't even bring up her being Batgirl. Hmmmm.


Yeah, her missing Batgirl history is very conspicuous. But the whole article is weird, because it's ignoring the New52 reboot. Heck, the article refers Tim as Robin, but he was never a Robin according to the New52. NewSteph and NewTim barely know each other, so their years long history never happened. Rebirth is still total vague, so this article is really a surprise on the official page.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> The official Batman Facebook page posted this. Interesting, it's a surprise they care about Tim and Steph's relationship.
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/05...n?sf81643894=1


Wow that's amazing that Steph is given so much attention and with Tim too. I was beginning to think that DC wanted us to forget about them. That's great.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

IMG_4395.JPG
Oh yeah I forgot to say, I'm working on a new Rebirth Red Robin cosplay.

----------


## Assam

> IMG_4395.JPG
> Oh yeah I forgot to say, I'm working on a new Rebirth Red Robin cosplay.


Nice! Are you gonna try to build any of the armored parts, or are you just gonna go with spandex?

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> Nice! Are you gonna try to build any of the armored parts, or are you just gonna go with spandex?


Oh I'm putting armor on it for sure.  I made a version of it last year (new attached pic), but I thought a sublimation dye suit would accentuate the base costume itself.

IMG_4802.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> IMG_4395.JPG
> Oh yeah I forgot to say, I'm working on a new Rebirth Red Robin cosplay.


Hey, you're The ComicBookGeek from Youtube. I've seen many of your videos. I love how much you care about Tim.  :Smile:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

The Rebirth suit is better than anything they've did with it in New 52.   His original Neal Adams suit is still the best.

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> Hey, you're The ComicBookGeek from Youtube. I've seen many of your videos. I love how much you care about Tim.


Haha, yeah that's me. I'm not a big YouTube name, but even still I try to show my love for Tim Drake as much as I can.




> The Rebirth suit is better than anything they've did with it in New 52.   His original Neal Adams suit is still the best.


I completely and totally agree. His current suit is ok, and better than the Nu52 suit but this should be more Red Robin-ish, with more red in it. And Neal Adam's suit was the best in my opinion too.

----------


## KrustyKid

Kon V Tim,

KonVTim.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Kon V Tim,
> 
> KonVTim.jpg


This picture features: Tim Drake, Kon-El, a more grown up Tim Drake, a bodysnatcher, and a pair of imposters.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This picture features: Tim Drake, Kon-El, a more grown up Tim Drake, a bodysnatcher, and a pair of imposters.


Nice breakdown, lol

----------


## Atlanta96

> Kon V Tim,
> 
> KonVTim.jpg


I love how 2000s era Tim and Kon are staring at each other. It has an emo, homo-erotic tension that is perfect for those characters at that time.

And New 52 RR and Superboy look like an arrogant know it all and a rage filled manchild, also appropriate. This drawing is kind of brilliant.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I love how 2000s era Tim and Kon are staring at each other. It has an emo, homo-erotic tension that is perfect for those characters at that time.
> 
> And New 52 RR and Superboy look like an arrogant know it all and a rage filled manchild, also appropriate. This drawing is kind of brilliant.


I'd of had the second group smiling (Pre-52 Red Robin/Superboy) That would be the only change I'd make.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh I'm putting armor on it for sure.  I made a version of it last year (new attached pic), but I thought a sublimation dye suit would accentuate the base costume itself.
> 
> Attachment 49880


Awesome stuff bro

----------


## Frontier

> Kon V Tim,
> 
> KonVTim.jpg


I'm a little disappointed that the New 52 versions are the most prominent but this is still an awesome illustration  :Cool: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm a little disappointed that the New 52 versions are the most prominent but this is still an awesome illustration .


Hopefully things are better for Tim and Kon in the near future

----------


## Herowatcher

My favorite time period and costumes for Tim & Connor.

(((REBIRTH))) back to this please!

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I keep associating him with Doug Ramsey or Cypher of All New X-factor. Is that weird?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I keep associating him with Doug Ramsey or Cypher of All New X-factor. Is that weird?


That kid who died in the 80s?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> That kid who died in the 80s?


Yeah he came back recently. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=cyph...NCQ1KkbPzwPIM:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yeah he came back recently. 
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=cyph...NCQ1KkbPzwPIM:


LOL so we can get freaking Cypher back but Tim and his friends are still rotting in limbo. Aren't comics wonderful?

----------


## sakuyamons

> LOL so we can get freaking Cypher back but Tim and his friends are still rotting in limbo. Aren't comics wonderful?


To be honest, I think Mr. Oz is rebooting them from their n52 personas, which shows that Oz was a good man all along.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Recently was a stretch as he was around for a while before Peter David started using him in All New Xfactor. I just thought he and tim felt similar in a broad strokes way.

----------


## KrustyKid

> To be honest, I think Mr. Oz is rebooting them from their n52 personas, which shows that Oz was a good man all along.


You make a point, lol

----------


## Atlanta96

> To be honest, I think Mr. Oz is rebooting them from their n52 personas, which shows that Oz was a good man all along.


I don't see how a full reboot of Tim can factor into their plans, they seem pretty keen on sticking to his New 52 history.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't see how a full reboot of Tim can factor into their plans, they seem pretty keen on sticking to his New 52 history.


Yea, I doubt we'll get a full reboot of Tim. Rather some light touches here and there.

----------


## Assam

> Yea, I doubt we'll get a full reboot of Tim. Rather some light touches here and there.


Agreed. And honestly, I'd settle for Tymion for a few years (He had problems but he WAS better than NuTim) if it meant getting Bart and Cassie back to their Pre-Graduation Day characterization, and Kon, at the very least, back to his Pre-Flashpoint characterization. (Upon reflection, he _was_ much more like his old self after he was brought back to life.) Though of course Kessel's Kon would be preferable.

----------


## Atlanta96

I can't imagine why any writer who isn't Scott Lobdell would want to keep those New 52 developments intact. How can they do that to him?

----------


## Assam

I think you'll all appreciate this: 

I WAS ROBIN.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I think you'll all appreciate this: 
> 
> I WAS ROBIN.jpg


I love it  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

> I don't see how a full reboot of Tim can factor into their plans, they seem pretty keen on sticking to his New 52 history.


The way they've set it up, it feels like either they'll ignore any potential to really change his past or they feel that doing so requires highlighting it and making a point about it. I mean, sticking Tim in Mr. Oz's Happy Fun Time Corrections Facility feels like it should be a very clear statement that Tim is a centerpiece to something in Rebirth. I guess the question is whether they recognize that Tim would be included in any reboot of the Young Justice kids, or if they seem to think that he would work as some kind of common feature between the failed New 52 series and the new Rebirth one. I think he needs changes, but I'm not DC.




> I can't imagine why any writer who isn't Scott Lobdell would want to keep those New 52 developments intact. How can they do that to him?


When I look at the broad strokes of the New 52 origin, the one element that sticks out to me as the most defensible change is having his parents alive; everything else feels like the kind of vague, forgettable mistakes that I'd be shocked if creative really remembered them unless they see they are bad. I mean, I think if we evaluated Tim's New 52 origin, we'd probably have a concensus that the one, single element that seemed like a response to actual criticism of Tim's origin is the parents. In theory, they should be the largest distinguishing feature of Tim with the he other Robins as it stands now.

But they haven't shown any interest in using them correctly before Rebirth, and they almost totally ignored them in Rebirth. If Tim's parents are alive, they should be a common feature of his adventures, akin to the Daily planet staff in Superman. Making them just hostages like in TT and B&RE literally just makes them the Load. And that's insufficient for justifying keeping them alive.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The way they've set it up, it feels like either they'll ignore any potential to really change his past or they feel that doing so requires highlighting it and making a point about it. I mean, sticking Tim in Mr. Oz's Happy Fun Time Corrections Facility feels like it should be a very clear statement that Tim is a centerpiece to something in Rebirth. I guess the question is whether they recognize that Tim would be included in any reboot of the Young Justice kids, or if they seem to think that he would work as some kind of common feature between the failed New 52 series and the new Rebirth one. I think he needs changes, but I'm not DC.
> 
> 
> 
> When I look at the broad strokes of the New 52 origin, the one element that sticks out to me as the most defensible change is having his parents alive; everything else feels like the kind of vague, forgettable mistakes that I'd be shocked if creative really remembered them unless they see they are bad. I mean, I think if we evaluated Tim's New 52 origin, we'd probably have a concensus that the one, single element that seemed like a response to actual criticism of Tim's origin is the parents. In theory, they should be the largest distinguishing feature of Tim with the he other Robins as it stands now.
> 
> But they haven't shown any interest in using them correctly before Rebirth, and they almost totally ignored them in Rebirth. If Tim's parents are alive, they should be a common feature of his adventures, akin to the Daily planet staff in Superman. Making them just hostages like in TT and B&RE literally just makes them the Load. And that's insufficient for justifying keeping them alive.


Great way of putting it godisawesome, Tim's parents should be used in some form or fashion. Not just as background noise in Tim's story

----------


## oasis1313

> Great way of putting it godisawesome, Tim's parents should be used in some form or fashion. Not just as background noise in Tim's story


That was one thing that differentiated Early Tim from the rest of the Robins--he had his own family and a life outside the Wayne Bubble.  He wanted to help out, but he didn't want to be Robin forever.  The others were just part of the Bat-Orphanage.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That was one thing that differentiated Early Tim from the rest of the Robins--he had his own family and a life outside the Wayne Bubble.  He wanted to help out, but he didn't want to be Robin forever.  The others were just part of the Bat-Orphanage.


Something that can hopefully be executed with Rebirth Tim at some point as well.

----------


## Alycat

Do Tim's parents even know that he's dead??? Also, I just want my Dick-Tim friendship back. Since Tynion is a fan of Tim  surely he realizes how important it was.

----------


## Atlanta96

Hopefully Tynion will soon have his chance to prove how much he understands Tim, I fear I'll be eligible for social security by the time he returns.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Hopefully Tynion will soon have his chance to prove how much he understands Tim, I fear I'll be eligible for social security by the time he returns.


LOL. Hang in there Atlanta96

----------


## Atlanta96

> LOL. Hang in there Atlanta96


I believe humanity will have evolved into a telepathic hive mind by the time Tim returns.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I believe humanity will have evolved into a telepathic hive mind by the time Tim returns.


Just when I thought things couldn't get any worse :Wink:

----------


## Assam

So just to appreciate Tim in this appreciation thread, this is something I realized. To my recollection, not counting Bruce himself, Tim is the _only_ member of the BatFam who has ever saved the world single-handedly. (In the final issue of Young Justice) Cass and Dick have played major roles in saving the world during their times with Justice League Elite and the Titans respectively, which is more than most BatFam members, but only Tim has ever done it on his own.

EDIT: Was Mother's plan in BR:E a world threatening crisis? I remember most of what happened in the story, but she was such a forgettable villain, I can't recall.

----------


## Caivu

> EDIT: Was Mother's plan in BR:E a world threatening crisis? I remember most of what happened in the story, but she was such a forgettable villain, I can't recall.


Close enough to make no real difference. But that plan was stopped by a dozen or so different people, so the point is moot.

----------


## Assam

> Close enough to make no real difference. But that plan was stopped by a dozen or so different people, so the point is moot.


Gotcha. And yeah, it doesn't make a different, I was just wondering if Dick and Cass were actually the only ones to ever _help_ save the world. Tim and Bruce are still the only ones to do it solo.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Gotcha. And yeah, it doesn't make a different, I was just wondering if Dick and Cass were actually the only ones to ever _help_ save the world. Tim and Bruce are still the only ones to do it solo.


Clearly you haven't read Robin Son of Batman.

----------


## Atlanta96

I can't wait till Duke saves the world singlehandedly, he's so good it needs to happen as soon as possible. I'm sure he will put everyone else to shame.

How did Tim singlehandedly save the world, exactly? Did it involve pressing lots of buttons?

----------


## CPSparkles

> I can't wait till Duke saves the world singlehandedly, he's so good it needs to happen as soon as possible. I'm sure he will put everyone else to shame.
> 
> How did Tim singlehandedly save the world, exactly? Did it involve pressing lots of buttons?


You're joking and I wanna laugh but I'm gonna hold off till this Summer ball Synder has planned for his lil debutante is over because knowing my luck that's exactly what gonna end up happening. Then Batman will take his dad's advice and retire leaving Duke saviour of Metal and crossword enthusiast  to take up the mantle as the new batman.

----------


## Atlanta96

> You're joking and I wanna laugh but I'm gonna hold off till this Summer ball Synder has planned for his lil debutante is over because knowing my luck that's exactly what gonna end up happening. Then Batman will take his dad's advice and retire leaving Duke saviour of Metal and crossword enthusiast  to take up the mantle as the new batman.


I honestly, genuinely wouldn't mind that happening. I could use the laughter.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I honestly, genuinely wouldn't mind that happening. I could use the laughter.


Hahaha seriously NO. If Duke becomes Batman they'll have to keep him just to be PC and get the diversity PR points. 

Tim saved the world by making an emotional connection with Secret who was gonna wreck things after turning evil.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hahaha seriously NO. If Duke becomes Batman they'll have to keep him just to be PC and get the diversity PR points. 
> 
> Tim saved the world by making an emotional connection with Secret who was gonna wreck things after turning evil.


I would never stop laughing.

Maybe if Tim was black and had radar sense he could be treated as well as Duke. Or if he was a Snyder creation. I mean, Tim wasn't created by anyone even remotely important. I think his name was "Marv" or something  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Clearly you haven't read Robin Son of Batman.


Dropped it after issue #2. Damian saved the world in that book? 




> How did Tim singlehandedly save the world, exactly? Did it involve pressing lots of buttons?





> Tim saved the world by making an emotional connection with Secret who was gonna wreck things after turning evil.


Yup. It was a _really_ well written moment, and one of Tim's best IMO.




> I honestly, genuinely wouldn't mind that happening. I could use the laughter.


What are you talking about? Why would it be funny? Who else but Duke "Fan Favorite Batman's closest ally crossword enthusiast" Thomas could even HOPE to be Batman?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Honestly though, if Duke becomes Batman, it'll be as bad as what Marvelbro's pretend has happened to Marvel. (I really like Marvel's new, young and diverse heroes, much more than their older counterparts) The difference of course being that those characters have actual depth to them. BUT HEY, if Duke does become Batman, possibly for the first time ever, Dick, Jason, Tim, Cass, and Damian fans will all be united in hatred towards something.  :Wink: 

If Duke HAS to be made the star of the book (Even though everyone who is or has been on the 'Tec team are more popular characters and everyone barring Basil and Luke has proven they can headline a good-selling solo book) then I'd prefer they just put him in _Lark._ If it flops, we never have to see Duke in a major role again, but if it succeeds, it'll HOPEFULLY mean that the book finally gave some development to the character, and we can maybe come to start liking him.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Dropped it after issue #2. Damian saved the world in that book? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. It was a _really_ well written moment, and one of Tim's best IMO.
> 
> 
> ...


What are you talking about? He's gotten TONS of development this year! Like, he has radar sense now!

Seriously though, the current Bat-books are so generic and dissatisfying right now that I'd welcome a massive LOL moment like Duke becoming Batman. At least it would be something to talk about.

And if Cyborg can be on the Justice League and part of all their stories for 5 years straight, and still not have a successful solo book, what makes anyone think Duke would fare any better? At least Cyborg has some recognition, this kid has literally nothing going for him. Not like Tim, with a dedicated fanbase and 20+ years of successful solo stories. You'd have to be blind not to see the potential with Tim.

----------


## Alycat

Eh I actually like the current Batline pretty well  actually. Tec is average as heck imo, and I have no idea if Tim should go to that team after his return, because what's his use there when Batwing can be tech guy. So where does that leave Tim? A solo: probably not. Him and his old YJ 4 team? Maybe but they all need huge overhauls and work ut in not to look like the current Teen Titans.

As for Duke, he's much better written under King that Snyder, but yeah not looking forward to the crossover. Diversity is always needed, but I feel like Duke works better as support, not lead. It's the same problem Batwing has actually. Also it's a damn shame that the Batbooks have 1 black woman, with Helena, and she gets no push at all.

----------


## Aioros22

> So just to appreciate Tim in this appreciation thread, this is something I realized. To my recollection, not counting Bruce himself, Tim is the _only_ member of the BatFam who has ever saved the world single-handedly. (In the final issue of Young Justice) Cass and Dick have played major roles in saving the world during their times with Justice League Elite and the Titans respectively, which is more than most BatFam members, but only Tim has ever done it on his own.
> 
> EDIT: Was Mother's plan in BR:E a world threatening crisis? I remember most of what happened in the story, but she was such a forgettable villain, I can't recall.


Yeah I recall that one. 

He and Jason are up there with Bruce. Mother was like, a combination of several battle fields, so I wouldn`t give it to any one person.

----------


## Assam

> . Also it's a damn shame that the Batbooks have 1 black woman, with Helena, and she gets no push at all.


Representation in the Modern Batfamily: 1 black woman- not pushed and on a team with two white women. 1 disabled character (Whose also a female and POC) - Not pushed and on a team where the majority is white men. 2 black guys- One who stopped getting pushed, and is now also on a team where the majority is white men, and one who, while getting a VERY good push, is only getting the treatment because his creator is still around and currently making a lot of money. 

Damn it DC...

----------


## Atlanta96

LOL, you can tell how DC comics REALLY feels about diversity at times like this. They've got a young Asian girl who not only has a compelling premise and an existing fan base, but has proven extremely successful in the past with a solo book lasting over 70 issues. AND THEY DONT DO JACK SH*T WITH HER! Meanwhile they won't stop making us accept their pet characters as solo heroes, even when we've already accepted Cass Cain as a solo hero and they keep sitting on her.

Let's face it, they only care about diversity when it fits their agenda. It's like the CW shows who cast POCs as white characters constantly, but will cast a white actor as a POC when it's more convenient for them. It's all a sham.

----------


## CPSparkles

> LOL, you can tell how DC comics REALLY feels about diversity at times like this. They've got a young Asian girl who not only has a compelling premise and an existing fan base, but has proven extremely successful in the past with a solo book lasting over 70 issues. AND THEY DONT DO JACK SH*T WITH HER! Meanwhile they won't stop making us accept their pet characters as solo heroes, even when we've already accepted Cass Cain as a solo hero and they keep sitting on her.
> 
> Let's face it, they only care about diversity when it fits their agenda. It's like the CW shows who cast POCs as white characters constantly, but will cast a white actor as a POC when it's more convenient for them. It's all a sham.


Diversity is very important unfortunately companies never commit and do it properly 90% of the time they only do for the image.
I don't mind the double standard of stuff like the CW shows white people should not play people of colour. They've done that for far too long ow it's time for the other guys to get a taste.

You can't compare Duke with Cass come on. Duke is far far superior and has so much more to give

He comes with his own star creator chomping at the bit to give us the biggest, most epic,world changing stories featuring Duke. Every singe one of those stories will change the DCU forever. 

He has Bat Sonar so he is even more Bat than Batman. No rich boy cosplaying as a bat here. This is the real deal.

He is a whizz at Sudoku. Imagine all the extra fun in the Bat Cave as he lets the rest of the family watch in awe as he works his magic on the Gotham Gazette Brain Buster.

He has a jazzy suit that make him even more fun and bubbly than Dick Grayson.

He was practically raised by Bruce Wayne for a bit way before any of the robins arrived on the scene so he knows Bruce better than anyone even Alfred.

Cass can't do any of that! I have never seen Cass doing a crossword ever seriously not even once.

----------


## Aahz

> It's like the CW shows who cast POCs as white characters constantly, but will cast a white actor as a POC when it's more convenient for them.


I don't really see a problem with CW swapping races in both directions, especially since most of the "white washed" characters were anyway very minor, and lots of these characters have anyway nothing to do with there comic book counterpart apart from the name.

----------


## Sardorim

Duke is better than Cass? Don't even joke like that, it isn't funnym

----------


## millernumber1

What does any of this have to do with Tim?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> What does any of this have to do with Tim?


The racial aspect has nothing to do with it, but the treatment of the characters is the same.   I'd say Tim's legacy is far greater than Cass, and DC has thrown it all way.

----------


## Assam

> The racial aspect has nothing to do with it, but the treatment of the characters is the same.   I'd say Tim's legacy is far greater than Cass, and DC has thrown it all way.


Eh. I'm obviously biased but Tim only debuted 10 years before Cass. I'd hardly say his legacy is _far_ greater.

And how this actually came up was Atlanta joked about Duke saving the world, following something I was saying about Tim, which led to the topic of the marginalization of most of the Batfam's minorities.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Eh. I'm obviously biased but Tim only debuted 10 years before Cass. I'd hardly say his legacy is _far_ greater.
> 
> And how this actually came up was Atlanta joked about Duke saving the world, following something I was saying about Tim, which led to the topic of the marginalization of most of the Batfam's minorities.


He made Robin cool.   His appearance and costume is what most modern interpretations of the character are based on outside of comics (Titans, YJ, etc).   I like Cassandra too, but she is off far less importance to the mythos than Tim is.

On a side note, I picked up the last issue I was missing from Robin regular series, I now have the complete 184 issue run.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim _was_ effectively the star of the first expansion of the Batfamily. He got his miniseries and solo first, then Nightwing, the Birds of Prey, Azrael, Batgirl, etc. 

It's kind of strange just how cautious DC was in doing any expansions. Tim went through three separate miniseries before he got his solo in 1993, and it still took two years before Nightwing and Birds of Prey got started. Nightwing being launched afterwards is kind of surprising in hindsight, considering how much of a proven IP Dick Grayson was; kind of puts perspective into how DC views the superhero IPs versus their civilian IDs. The fact that Chuck Dixon launched all three solos just kind of emphasizes how much of a workhorse that man was.

----------


## Alycat

> Eh. I'm obviously biased but Tim only debuted 10 years before Cass. I'd hardly say his legacy is _far_ greater.
> 
> And how this actually came up was Atlanta joked about Duke saving the world, following something I was saying about Tim, which led to the topic of the marginalization of most of the Batfam's minorities.


No, his legacy is farrrr greater than Cass. 10 years is a lot of time and not the only part of it either. I'm surprised that you think differently. Tim defined modern Robin and has way nor importance to the family. You could take Cass out and change nothing, but I don't think you can do the same with Tim. There's also his relationships outside the family and he even got some recognition outside the comics. Cass ain't even close.

----------


## yohyoi

Anyone know why didn't DC continue Tim's Red Robin series during the New 52? Bat mythos was still intact in the New 52. It doesn't make sense for DC to not publish a New 52 Red Robin series. I get the whole putting Babs back in her Batgirl mantle even though it was controversial. But DC didn't take Tim's Red Robin identity nor did they have a reason to change it. Red Robin was still new so they could have expanded it more on his New 52 series.

I felt DC cut the potential of Red Robin before it can start to grow. Nightwing had appearances in BTAS even though his comic series was just 2 years old. Nightwing was also shown in an episode of Teen Titans animated. Red Hood had an animated film centered on him. Why didn't DC push Red Robin in both animated media and comics as much as Nightwing or Red Hood?

Damian's Robin is getting many times more push from DC compared to Tim's time as Robin and Red Robin. Damian is starring in films, games and comics. It is sad that Damian's Robin shadows both Tim's Robin and Red Robin combined. DC should give Tim his own Red Robin series back, then put him in games and films to advertise him to the general public. DC should also focus more in Tim in the upcoming Young Justice season 3 to develop the character. I think with the right moves Tim could be as popular as Jason and maybe Damian.

----------


## Assam

> He made Robin cool.   His appearance and costume is what most modern interpretations of the character are based on outside of comics (Titans, YJ, etc).   I like Cassandra too, but she is off far less importance to the mythos than Tim is.


- Led the first ever Batgirl solo series, proving it could actually sell. Without her, there wouldn't be Batgirl books today. 

- To this day remains the female POC with the longest running solo book in DC history. 

- Among comic fans, is one of the most popular DC female characters. (And would be with non-comic fans too if she were ever actually allowed to appear in anything.) 

- One of the ONLY neurologically atypical superheroes DC has, and certainly the most well known. (And this was clear, LONG before Tynion confirmed it.) 

- For better or for worse (Worse), she's part of the long history of DC mistreating 'Batgirl', both from when they idiotically turned her evil, which is something heavily criticized and well documented, and later on when she served as a poster child for characters missing from the Nu52 (Alongside Steph and Wally). 

Tim and Cass were both the first to carry a solo of their respective legacies. They both "made [it] cool." They've both served on several teams. 

Tim's costume? Yeah, its had more of an impact than both characters, I'll concede that. But Tim himself hasn't. Cass may not have any real outside media appearances, but Tim's sadly never had a _good_ one, between his fusion with Jason, the not Tim at all in the Arkham series, and the piece of wood in YJ. They both deserve better in that regard. 




> No, his legacy is farrrr greater than Cass. 10 years is a lot of time and not the only part of it either. I'm surprised that you think differently. Tim defined modern Robin and has way nor importance to the family. You could take Cass out and change nothing, but I don't think you can do the same with Tim. There's also his relationships outside the family and he even got some recognition outside the comics. Cass ain't even close.


Already made a bunch of points above, but I'll add on, in regards to certain points. Taking out Tim or Cass would change things. Take out Tim? Either Lonnie becomes Robin or Batman is solo for a long time until Morrison comes along. If they stil wanted a partner for a story, they could still have used Nightwing or JPV.  Take out Cass? 'Batgirl' never becomes viable for a solo book. And in terms of impact on the family, during Cass's time as Batgirl, they were pretty much equal in that regards. Only big crossover story she wasn't in that Tim was was the mess that is _Hush_, and Jim Lee has admitted she was only excluded because he found Cass difficult to draw. Cass has relationships outside the BatFam as well, both civilians and plenty of other heroes, and as I said before, both of them get the short end of the stick outside comics, Cass not getting anything and Tim only doing slightly better with mixed to bad portrayals.

----------


## godisawesome

> *Anyone know why didn't DC continue Tim's Red Robin series during the New 52? Bat mythos was still intact in the New 52. It doesn't make sense for DC to not publish a New 52 Red Robin series. I get the whole putting Babs back in her Batgirl mantle even though it was controversial. But DC didn't take Tim's Red Robin identity nor did they have a reason to change it. Red Robin was still new so they could have expanded it more on his New 52 series.*
> 
> I felt DC cut the potential of Red Robin before it can start to grow. Nightwing had appearances in BTAS even though his comic series was just 2 years old. Nightwing was also shown in an episode of Teen Titans animated. Red Hood had an animated film centered on him. Why didn't DC push Red Robin in both animated media and comics as much as Nightwing or Red Hood?
> 
> Damian's Robin is getting many times more push from DC compared to Tim's time as Robin and Red Robin. Damian is starring in films, games and comics. It is sad that Damian's Robin shadows both Tim's Robin and Red Robin combined. DC should give Tim his own Red Robin series back, then put him in games and films to advertise him to the general public. DC should also focus more in Tim in the upcoming Young Justice season 3 to develop the character. I think with the right moves Tim could be as popular as Jason and maybe Damian.


I think the heart of the decision to end Tim's Red Robin solo was based primarily off the New 52's overall marketing driven handling of IPs. Looking back at the New 52's initial lineup of books, it's clear that major creative decisions and character placement choices were made based off of cautious micro-managing of several characters, one which may have exposed a weakness in the editorial boards via Tim and the other character put in Teen Titans.

All four boy Robins were clearly seen as full of potential for monthly books, but only one a piece, and only if packaged in a way to make marketing groups feel good. Thus, Dick Grayson goes back to Nightwing, Damian is made Bruce's sidekick in Batman and Robin, and Jason and Tim are both packed off to team books. All these choices seem "safe" and "separate"- there's only one solo, and all three have radically different setups, all of which seem to have a conventional appeal and pretty art. But if you view it in comparison to the Pre-Flashpoint setup, it comes off as kind of stifling; pretty much all the characters (save Jason) were major components of multiple books (Dick and Damian), or frequently crossing over into other books and holding a solo for over 10 years (Tim).

Tim, in particular, looks like he was shuffled off into Teen Titans likely out of a belief that A) a solo Red Robin books was too similar to Nightwing (showing a lack of faith in characters who'd already existed as autonomous solo heroes concurrently) and B) that making Tim the cornerstone attraction of Teen Titans would guarantee a steady readership. Admittedly, B was kind of true; I hung around TT past its sell-by date out of a desire to read Tim Drake. 

But here's where you can see the difference in editorial boards, the same issue that arguably sunk Teen Titans, damaged Tim Drake, and kind of highlight the Bat-books editorial advantage. Teen Titans, and even Red Hood and the Outlaws. To a lesser extent, both suffered from bad editorial management. Teen Titans in particular got ripped apart by decisions that regarded readers as ADHD lemmings ("This has to be the first team or people will get confused!") arguments over what to do with certain IPs ("Well, time to get rid of Superboy to make way for the new one."), a desire to totally remove any past or valuable connections ("Wonder Girl wears Trigon armor, Bart is a criminal with no relation to the Flash, and Tim Drake needs a new history because I feel like it.") and just plain old fashioned bad judgement on what to edit and what not to ("Hey, Scott make sure you include an out of nowhere mourning scene about Damina for Tim, and yeah, having Trigon mind control underage kids into having sex is a-okay!")

Meanwhile, in the Batbooks, bad edicts were still being passed down form on high, but the damage always seemed to be lessened.

----------


## yohyoi

> Tim, in particular, looks like he was shuffled off into Teen Titans likely out of a belief that A) a solo Red Robin books was too similar to Nightwing (showing a lack of faith in characters who'd already existed as autonomous solo heroes concurrently) and B) that making Tim the cornerstone attraction of Teen Titans would guarantee a steady readership. Admittedly, B was kind of true; I hung around TT past its sell-by date out of a desire to read Tim Drake.


A) is such a stupid decision. It seems like they don't even read the comics they published. Tim's Red Robin was very different from Nightwing. It was closer to Batman and the Question. We needed a good detective book in the New 52, which Red Robin could have been.

----------


## Magmaster12

Let's face it Tim would probably still be around if it was for how terrible the last tenure on Teen Titans was.

----------


## Alycat

> Let's face it Tim would probably still be around if it was for how terrible the last tenure on Teen Titans was.


I still can't believe multiple people were over that mess.

----------


## godisawesome

A) also kind of proves that there was real slap-dash chaos in creative control at the time; you can tell that Tim's position was probably a compromise between detail and continuity despising marketing teams aiming for the lowest common denominator (not a great idea in what's become a comparative niché market/dedicated pastime) and experienced creative forces who had Tim's market success at the forefront of their minds. So, characters that broad sweeping edicts would have probably eliminated, like, say, _all the boy Robins_, instead got a unique treatment designed to maximize their "marketability" as individual characters. And arguably, that hurt all three of the boys to already have monthly commitments, since they were already doing fine; Dick becoming Nightwing was clearly a downgrade that Seely is fighting against even now, Damian's feature story Batman RIP got held up in part because of DC's horror at certain Pre-Flashpoint elements, and Tim got thrashed. Only Jason really got a push, and that's because he didn't have a real book before Flashpoint. And arguably, the comparative success of RHATO proves that you can *flood* the market with Batfamily books, and as long as the writer is good *for the material* it will succeed. (Sorry, I can't stomachs the phrase "good writer" and Svott Lobdell in the same sentence without a caveat.)

The marketing directives that most hurt the Teen Titans book, and Tim himself, were for the IPs to be independent of their progenitors (presumably to "protect" the Big 7 IPs, because we can't have Barry Allen being a grandpa), and simultaneously get "darker and edgier." Which is just plain moronic when you consider the cast of the book and the overall makeup of comic audiences at this point in history; a significant and active part of any comic readership is going to be continuity friendly geeks-- people who aren't necessarily fanatic about following continuity, but who _will_ compare previous incarnations of characters to the new ones. If you screw up the update, _in any way, shape, or form,_ you're going to catch a corresponding amount of hell.

Butchering an already shaky writer's story ideas, like editorial did for Scott Lobdell's tenure on TT, is going to cause carnage on the readership, especially on long term investment, which is by far and away the most important part of a book's make-up. Doing so while handling contradictory directives that try to simultaneously target dedicated fans while mangling the characters is a recipe for guaranteed failure. You can still try banal marketing techniques for the quick injection of readers (cross-overs, relaunches, putting Rockafort on art duties), but it's not going to last. I mean, in theory, "Teen Titans" is a far more marketable IP than "Red Robin", simply because it's a lauded team book with mainstream recognition, but if I remember correctly, New 52 Teen Titans soon dropped below Red Robin's sales in comparison.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

There was a cheeky comment about Tim becoming the Question (im actually fond of it) which lead me to wonder what does Tim actually think about the Question?

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> There was a cheeky comment about Tim becoming the Question (im actually fond of it) which lead me to wonder what does Tim actually think about the Question?


Depends on which one we're looking at. Vic, i'm not sure how he would feel about him. On the one hand Vic is an excellent detective, on the other hand he can be a conspiracy nut and Tim tends to be both emotional but also driven by logic more so then say Nightwing and Red Hood. So He'd probably treat Vic with respect but keep his distance as he probably would see the good in Vic but also be wary of his less then logical choices from time to time. 

Renee on the other hand, I think he would get along fine with her and help her out as he knows and would trust her due to their past of working together.

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim, Steph, Cass. The Tremendous Trio

TeamA.jpg

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## Assam

> Tim, Steph, Cass. The Tremendous Trio
> 
> TeamA.jpg


I know it's a _thing_ on Tumblr to draw Steph as big and black (And I don't have any problem with that), but does anyone have any idea how that got started?

----------


## KrustyKid

> I know it's a _thing_ on Tumblr to draw Steph as big and black (And I don't have any problem with that), but does anyone have any idea how that got started?


What? That's really a thing? lol.

I have not a clue

----------


## millernumber1

> I know it's a _thing_ on Tumblr to draw Steph as big and black (And I don't have any problem with that), but does anyone have any idea how that got started?


It is a thing. You'd have to hunt it down in the tag, but it was just one or two fan artists who decided to make it a thing.

----------


## Atlanta96

Tumblr exists in a completely different reality from our own, where the laws of physics don't apply. Do not question Tumblr logic.

----------


## KrustyKid

If Tim returns for Young Justice season 3 what do you think his role will be? What would you like it to be?

----------


## Alycat

Oh so they'll draw Steph black but barely ever use NiHelena. Tumblrrrr . But yeah it's strange. 





> If Tim returns for Young Justice season 3 what do you think his role will be? What would you like it to be?


I have no faith that it will be anything other than standing around again.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh so they'll draw Steph black but barely ever use NiHelena. Tumblrrrr . But yeah it's strange. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no faith that it will be anything other than standing around again.


I hope that is not what ends up happening. But given Tim's animated track record....

----------


## Caivu

Screenshot_20170605-205134.jpg

Screenshot_20170605-205110.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh so they'll draw Steph black but barely ever use NiHelena. Tumblrrrr . But yeah it's strange.


I hate it. I think Tumblr hasn't embraced n52/Rebirth Helena because there's like...two really loud Helena fans who think n52/Rebirth Helena was "abusive" in Grayson.

----------


## Alycat

> Screenshot_20170605-205134.jpg
> 
> 
> Screenshot_20170605-205110.jpg


My hopes are getting up again. He has to back by November right????




> I hate it. I think Tumblr hasn't embraced n52/Rebirth Helena because there's like...two really loud Helena fans who think n52/Rebirth Helena was "abusive" in Grayson.


I know exactly who you're talking about too. There is also a lot of  love for Arrow Helena who was terrible and a straight up villain, but whatever.

----------


## fanfan13

> Attachment 50278
> 
> Attachment 50279


Whoa it's about time! The reunion will be epic I bet.

Is he going to stay Red Robin or is he not?




> My hopes are getting up again. He has to back by November right????


So, it's going to be in Doomsday Clock?

----------


## KrustyKid

> My hopes are getting up again. He has to back by November right????
> 
> 
> 
> I know exactly who you're talking about too. There is also a lot of  love for Arrow Helena who was terrible and a straight up villain, but whatever.


That's probably when the event starts. Probably won't see Tim until next year.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Depends on which one we're looking at. Vic, i'm not sure how he would feel about him. On the one hand Vic is an excellent detective, on the other hand he can be a conspiracy nut and Tim tends to be both emotional but also driven by logic more so then say Nightwing and Red Hood. So He'd probably treat Vic with respect but keep his distance as he probably would see the good in Vic but also be wary of his less then logical choices from time to time. 
> 
> Renee on the other hand, I think he would get along fine with her and help her out as he knows and would trust her due to their past of working together.


Thanks, just curious.



> If Tim returns for Young Justice season 3 what do you think his role will be? What would you like it to be?


I would like him to focus on his role in the batfamily, we know he's the new guy but im curious as to how he became the new guy. They seem to be building something with Jason so hopefully they use that to explore Tim as well.

----------


## shadowsgirl

"And Batman needs a Robin. No matter what he thinks he wants."

00.jpg

01.jpg

02.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

More Tim awesomeness

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

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## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

5.jpg

6.jpg

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## failo.legendkiller

> "And Batman needs a Robin. No matter what he thinks he wants."
> 
> 00.jpg
> 
> 01.jpg
> 
> 02.jpg


Good old times! I agree with Tim, Batman always needs a Robin. And that's the reason i can't accept Damian in the Robin role. Damian changed what it means to be a Robin, and sadly he changed it for good.
I appreciate Damian, he's a very good character but he shouldn't never be Robin, he ruined the role i most loved in all my life. Tim was perfect in that role as it was Dick before. Jason was right as Robin for other reasons and his death was iconic.
With Damian they moved on, they crossed the line... No more Batman and Robin.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Good old times! I agree with Tim, Batman always needs a Robin. And that's the reason i can't accept Damian in the Robin role. Damian changed what it means to be a Robin, and sadly he changed it for good.
> I appreciate Damian, he's a very good character but he shouldn't never be Robin, he ruined the role i most loved in all my life. Tim was perfect in that role as it was Dick before. Jason was right as Robin for other reasons and his death was iconic.
> With Damian they moved on, they crossed the line... No more Batman and Robin.


I like this 100%.   Totally agree.

----------


## CPSparkles

I'm glad Damian changed robin forever. he is the anti robin and I like that. Change is good. While I believe that batman needs a partner I always liked solo robins the best. 
I loved Tim as robin working independent of Batman and Supersons is the best thing coming out of DC at the moment. 
and Nightwing and Robin proved to be a far more interesting duo than Batman and Robin.

I'm glad Damian changed the status quo and when Tim comes back and duke moves on I hope it's Batman and Red Robin.

----------


## Frontier

I enjoy seeing Batman and Robin together. The lack of that in Rebirth has been a bit of a bummer  :Frown: .

Tim was an awesome partner...

----------


## The Whovian

> I enjoy seeing Batman and Robin together. The lack of that in Rebirth has been a bit of a bummer .
> 
> Tim was an awesome partner...


Agreed. Tim was awesome

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'm glad Damian changed robin forever. he is the anti robin and I like that. Change is good. While I believe that batman needs a partner I always liked solo robins the best. 
> I loved Tim as robin working independent of Batman and Supersons is the best thing coming out of DC at the moment. 
> and Nightwing and Robin proved to be a far more interesting duo than Batman and Robin.
> 
> I'm glad Damian changed the status quo and when Tim comes back and duke moves on I hope it's Batman and Red Robin.


I loved Tim alone too, and even Damian needs to spend some time alone but what we lost is the concept of Robin and, consequently, the dynamic two
.
With Damian on charge Robin role moved on from "Robin: The Boy Wonder" to "Robin: The Son of Batman". This change is interesting and filled with potential but is too dangerous.
Morrison knew it very well, as a matter of fact he made Damian became Dick's Robin, not Bruce's Robin.
That was great, Batman and Robin dynamic worked very well, was refreshing, new, excellent!
But DC obviously hadn't the strenght to keep going on this way.

Now we have a great character like Damian who don't need to be Robin to shine, he's Robin only in the name. Beeing Robin means different things.
We lost Robin and everything he symbolize from the start. Tim is ruined and in limbo, and will be very hard to fix him.
Snyder is trying to fill the void with Duke, but the result is awful IMO.
I miss Batman and Robin, I miss Robin.

----------


## CPSparkles

This was posted by dietric on the Damian Wayne thread . I think it also belongs here

----------


## Atlanta96

Is it wrong that the presence of Duke ruined that drawing for me? Seeing him with the rest of the Family is an abomination. At least I know that art is from Tumblr because that's the only place where Duke fans actually exist.

On a side note, what do you think Tim's (Pre-Flashpoint Tim) favorite comic book film would be?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Is it wrong that the presence of Duke ruined that drawing for me? Seeing him with the rest of the Family is an abomination. At least I know that art is from Tumblr because that's the only place where Duke fans actually exist.
> 
> On a side note, what do you think Tim's (Pre-Flashpoint Tim) favorite comic book film would be?


I think he would like Iron man 3 and/or Winter soldier the most out of the current crop of films. Im sure he has more indie picks like hellboy or preacher but i'm not sure which yet.

I could see him and Bruce talking about BBC's Sherlocke tho.

----------


## Dominick1216

> Is it wrong that the presence of Duke ruined that drawing for me? Seeing him with the rest of the Family is an abomination. At least I know that art is from Tumblr because that's the only place where Duke fans actually exist.
> 
> On a side note, what do you think Tim's (Pre-Flashpoint Tim) favorite comic book film would be?


I wouldn't say that you thinking Duke ruined the drawing for you is wrong. Not at all. It's the same way for me, too. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian were always Bruce's only sons, for A LONG TIME. And, just last year, Duke became a part of that family. I think it would take time for fans to accept that Duke would be considered a "son" to Bruce.

----------


## Assam

> I wouldn't say that you thinking Duke ruined the drawing for you is wrong. Not at all. It's the same way for me, too. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian were always Bruce's only sons, for A LONG TIME. And, just last year, Duke became a part of that family. I think it would take time for fans to accept that Duke would be considered a "son" to Bruce.



Even though Duke isn't a son in my eyes since his parents are still around, I've got no problem with people including him. No, my only trigger is when people _don't_ include Cass in the family, both in fanart and the comics...I'm looking at _you_ King, Tomasi, and Morrison. 

Oh, and as for Tim's favorite comic book film...I'd go with Winter Soldier.

----------


## Dominick1216

> Even though Duke isn't a son in my eyes since his parents are still around, I've got no problem with people including him. No, my only trigger is when people _don't_ include Cass in the family, both in fanart and the comics...I'm looking at _you_ King, Tomasi, and Morrison. 
> 
> Oh, and as for Tim's favorite comic book film...I'd go with Winter Soldier.


Yes, same here! I also find it odd and annoying when fanart includes Barbara and Stephanie in the family. They both have at least one parent that has an important role in their lives respectively.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Is it wrong that the presence of Duke ruined that drawing for me? Seeing him with the rest of the Family is an abomination. At least I know that art is from Tumblr because that's the only place where Duke fans actually exist.
> 
> On a side note, what do you think Tim's (Pre-Flashpoint Tim) favorite comic book film would be?


I can understand not wanting a character that you dislike to be included in fan art with your favs, but I wouldn't go as far to say him being there as a abomination.

----------


## Alycat

> Even though Duke isn't a son in my eyes since his parents are still around, I've got no problem with people including him. No, my only trigger is when people _don't_ include Cass in the family, both in fanart and the comics...I'm looking at _you_ King, Tomasi, and Morrison. 
> 
> Oh, and as for Tim's favorite comic book film...I'd go with Winter Soldier.


I guess that you could argue that Cass is no longer part of the family. What I don't get is why people throw Steph in there. You'd think she was the sassiest huge part of the Batfamily and Bruce's daughter with the way fandom treats her.

----------


## Assam

> I guess that you could argue that Cass is no longer part of the family. What I don't get is why people throw Steph in there. You'd think she was the sassiest huge part of the Batfamily and Bruce's daughter with the way fandom treats her.


Duke hasn't been adopted; he has parents. In the new continuity, same for Tim. The  art only includes Bruce, the two kids its currently canon that he's adopted, and Damian? Fine. Otherwise, I've got a problem. Honestly, if anything, Cass is _more_ family than the other two because Bruce _is_ the closest thing she has to a dad now, legal or not. And that doesn't get any of those writers off the hook in my eyes. Tomasi (The editor of the Batbooks when OYL happened I remind you) and Morrison both left her out of the big "family" moments, and that moment with a bunch of the Bats in King's Batman included Kate, Babs, and Duke among others, but not Cass. (Though I've seen some people edit her into that panel, and that's awesome) 

As for Steph, in the sitcommy/tumblr world where this is actually a functional family, I see Steph as the friend who never goes home.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I can understand not wanting a character that you dislike to be included in fan art with your favs, but I wouldn't go as far to say him being there as a abomination.


It's like if you organized a concert and the lineup was Iron Maiden, Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins, Led Zeppelin... and Nickleback. Some things are god-awful on their own, but surrounding it with legends really makes it an abomination.

----------


## Assam

> It's like if you organized a concert and the lineup was Iron Maiden, Foo Fighters, Smashing Pumpkins, Led Zeppelin... and Nickleback. Some things are god-awful on their own, but surrounding it with legends really makes it an abomination.


I gotcha (though I'll admit that I liked Nickleback when I was young and foolish) Personally, the only true abominations who are BatFam or Bat allies as I see it are Sasha Bordeaux and Post-Flashpoint Babsgirl. Duke has to do something awful other than be boring before I can call him an abomination or "god-awful."

----------


## Atlanta96

> I gotcha (though I'll admit that I liked Nickleback when I was young and foolish) Personally, the only true abominations who are BatFam or Bat allies as I see it are Sasha Bordeaux and Post-Flashpoint Babsgirl. Duke has to do something awful other than be boring before I can call him an abomination or "god-awful."


His unearned push makes him god-awful. His push at the expense of the other Bat-Boys makes him an abomination.

----------


## Alycat

I actually like Nickleback . I didn't even know they were hated until I started using the internet regularly. Anyway, I think Damian not Tim suffers more from Duke being there. Tim's problems are a whole other ball game.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I actually like Nickleback . I didn't even know they were hated until I started using the internet regularly. Anyway, I think Damian not Tim suffers more from Duke being there. Tim's problems are a whole other ball game.


They both suffer, but Duke and Damian are nothing alike so they can coexist easier. You can't have Duke and Tim in the same story without some clone syndrome showing up.

----------


## Herowatcher

Give me a _Rebirth_ where Tim and Bruce are Batman & Robin again.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Give me a _Rebirth_ where Tim and Bruce are Batman & Robin again.


I personally hate panels like this. I hate when the writer denegarates other characters to compliment someone. Jason didn't die because he thought Robin was a game, he died because the Joker beat him to death as he valiantly tried to rescue his mother. It makes Bruce look like an unfeeling monster. Anyway rant over  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Image-11-1-768x488.jpg

I just happened across this panel online. Jason didn't go to Tim's funeral? That's kind of sad. He was the only member of the family, besides Steph, who had any sort of meaningful relationship with him. 

Any word on Tim's return?

----------


## Aahz

> I personally hate panels like this. I hate when the writer denegarates other characters to compliment someone. Jason didn't die because he thought Robin was a game, he died because the Joker beat him to death as he valiantly tried to rescue his mother. It makes Bruce look like an unfeeling monster. Anyway rant over


I have to agree, the part with Dick makes also not much sense, since in the post crisis contiuity Dick left Robin behind because Bruse fired him. And i don't really see what the difference between seeing it as a thrill or as a game. (Appart from this Jason would have hardly killed people if it was just a game for him.)

----------


## FlyingHero

Yeah that's just bad writing.

Anyway. I love Tim but ever since that Morrison run before new52. It sucks to be a fan of him. They need to give him a place in the DC universe. Make him the badass he was in his solo comic and let him travel the world or something. Damian has taken everything from him. Teen Titan and the Robin mantle. Duke is also there.

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I guess that you could argue that Cass is no longer part of the family. What I don't get is why people throw Steph in there. You'd think she was the sassiest huge part of the Batfamily and Bruce's daughter with the way fandom treats her.


Because folks take issue with her fans.

Unlike that other fanbase (the one with X in the name)-they went after MANAGEMENT not other fanbases.

They got in Dan's face many times. They went after who was the source of the problem.

As did Cass fans.

Because it was not Babs fans who edited both of them out of books including LIl Gotham & Batwing. That was management.





> You can't have Duke and Tim in the same story without some clone syndrome showing up.


Yet Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has no issue with. Nor Green Lantern, Flash (before New 52) and Transformers.

You can write different personalities for each one.

And no appearing in 7-10 issues of over 30+ Batman Rebirth related books is not a push. That is tokenism.

----------


## Aahz

> Yet Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles has no issue with. Nor Green Lantern, Flash (before New 52) and Transformers.
> 
> You can write different personalities for each one.


But Duke doesn't really have different personality than Tim, having them both around is imo as pointless as having Cass and Strix arround (and I'm not that knowldedgable when it comes to Flash, but I'm not really sure if Barry and an adult Wally are really that different).

----------


## Assam

> But Duke doesn't really have different personality than Tim, having them both around is imo as pointless as having Cass and Strix arround (and I'm not that knowldedgable when it comes to Flash, but I'm not really sure if Barry and an adult Wally are really that different).


Yeah, Duke is basically a blander, less developed Tim. With the others though, I will always argue that Cass and Strix's similarities are merely surface level, much like Cass and Laura Kinney, and no, properly written, Barry and adult Wally are not similar at all.(Okay, they have some similarities but they're still very unique)

----------


## Atlanta96

> But Duke doesn't really have different personality than Tim, having them both around is imo as pointless as having Cass and Strix arround (and I'm not that knowldedgable when it comes to Flash, but I'm not really sure if Barry and an adult Wally are really that different).


Yeah, what the Duke apologists don't understand is that, regardless of their career path or superficial traits, Duke is still a Tim Drake lite. They act too similarly to coexist without stepping on each other's toes. Large casts of characters are dependent on a diversity of personality types, which Duke fails to give us. He's less a compelling, underdeveloped Pre-Flashpoint Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> I will always argue that Cass and Strix's similarities are merely surface level,


The only big differnces I see is that Cass can read body language and that Strix has no problems with killing people, otherwise the differrences between them don't seem much bigger, than the variance you get for one of them when written by different writers.

And there is imo not much of a point in having them both in the same team.

----------


## Assam

> The only big differnces I see is that Cass can read body language and that Strix has no problems with killing people, otherwise the differrences between them don't seem much bigger, than the variance you get for one of them when written by different writers.
> 
> And there is imo not much of a point in having them both in the same team.


If Strix really was Cass light in _Batgirl_ and _Birds of Prey_ like I've heard she was, fair enough, I haven't read those books. All I know is that her personality in _Secret Six_ was very different than any version of Cass. 

I do agree though that they should never be on the same team. Personalities may be the most important thing for a character to be unique, but with their surface similarities, it would be a waste to have them taking up two team slots. I wouldn't mind a one time team up between them though.

----------


## Aahz

> If Strix really was Cass light in _Batgirl_ and _Birds of Prey_ like I've heard she was, fair enough, I haven't read those books. All I know is that her personality in _Secret Six_ was very different than any version of Cass.


But I think that more because Sectret Six having a very different tone that the books Cass was in.




> I do agree though that they should never be on the same team. Personalities may be the most important thing for a character to be unique, but with their surface similarities, it would be a waste to have them taking up two team slots. I wouldn't mind a one time team up between them though.


A team up with two similar characters can work. 
But I think on the long run there is not much of having them both in the Batmanfranchise (wjich secret Six is not really a part of) even i they never appear in the same book. Since in the end of the day you could give basically any guest appaerence of Stix in a Batbook to Cass, and I think it makes more sense for DC to double down on Cass than splitting their energy between Cass and Strix, thats imo similar with Duke and Tim (and I think for the same reason that the current 'TEC line up is not a good idea).

----------


## prettysunshine9

https://twitter.com/srDAVIDLAFUENTE/...54649865715712

Slightly off topic perhaps, but Tynion retweeted some original pencils from the end of Batman Eternal when Tim and Steph first met and oh my goodness
DCAzDolXYAAy1T4.jpg
_Lil' bat heart_

I do actually really like that scene, mostly because Tim is a massive goober in it, may be more conventional than a brick to the face but it's still a sweet first meeting between the two.

----------


## Assam

> (and I think for the same reason that the current 'TEC line up is not a good idea).


Definitely get what you're saying about everything else, but what do you think is wrong with the 'Tec roster? There's zero redundancy personality wise, and with Tim and Steph currently not around, the only redundancy skill wise is Kate and Bruce.

----------


## Atlanta96

Yeah the 'Tec roster is fine. The only characters who are even slightly similar were Tim and Luke Fox, and Luke didn't join until after Tim left so redundancy wasn't a problem. But if Steph and Harper are on the team at the same time, THEN you've got a redundancy problem.

----------


## Aahz

> Definitely get what you're saying about everything else, but what do you think is wrong with the 'Tec roster? There's zero redundancy personality wise, and with Tim and Steph currently not around, the only redundancy skill wise is Kate and Bruce.


It is not about redundancy within the roster, imo it would make just more sense to keep the overall Batfamily roaster smaller. I think it would make sense leave Luke and Jean-Paul (and maybe even Kate) in Limbo, and concentrate more on the core Batfamily. 
For DC it is in the end better to have fewer charcaters, with series that have solids sales, than to have more charcters that don't sell. And once the next Batfamily event comes arround they will have either to sideline them or everybody will be pissed that they get spotlight at expense of the core members.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Just an average day with the Bat boys  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

> 


People compare the Batgirls to the Power Puff Girls and the male Robins to the Ninja Turtles (Even though looking at all Robins, Steph is clearly more like Michelangelo than Damian), and surface level wise, it _is_ kind of freaky how well it matches up, but that does lead me to wonder if there's any group the non-Robins and Batgirls in the Batfam match up with. 




> 


Alfred had to bury 3 Robins that day.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I have no idea what you're talking about, Tim and Damian clearly love each other  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

[IMG]https://d.*************story_parts/384789421/images/14ab93d3156d4e6d936692066630.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Atlanta96

I've thought about how the Bat-boys compare to the cast of Buffy the Vampire Slayer for a while. Tim is Willow, Jason is Faith, Dick is Buffy (vaguely), Damien is Dawn, and Duke is Riley. Why Riley? Cause they both suck  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim is a real rebel  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Alvin Draper was awesome.  :Cool: 




> I've thought about how the Bat-boys compare to the cast of Buffy the Vampire Slayer for a while. Tim is Willow, Jason is Faith, Dick is Buffy (vaguely), Damien is Dawn, and Duke is Riley. Why Riley? Cause they both suck


Might be interesting to line up the core Batfam with the Buffyverse. Thoughts for later...

Anyway, I'll be honest, Riley has grown on me over the years. He's still the worst Buffyverse lead, but I like him more than Duke.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is hilarious. Poor Tam  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## fanfan13

> 


I really want Tim and Damian getting along with each other (with the sarcastic banters still there but no hard feelings). Damian is my fav and I have soft spot for Tim (the pre-flashpoint one) too so it'd be nice to see them getting along. Heck I'm reading fanfics about them gradually becoming bros already.




> *People compare the Batgirls to the Power Puff Girls and the male Robins to the Ninja Turtles* (Even though looking at all Robins, Steph is clearly more like Michelangelo than Damian), and surface level wise, it _is_ kind of freaky how well it matches up, but that does lead me to wonder if there's any group the non-Robins and Batgirls in the Batfam match up with.


wow, you are right. And yeah Steph is more Michelangelo than Damian.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Bart, your creativity is killing me  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Aahz

> People compare the Batgirls to the Power Puff Girls and the male Robins to the Ninja Turtles (Even though looking at all Robins, Steph is clearly more like Michelangelo than Damian), and surface level wise, it _is_ kind of freaky how well it matches up, but that does lead me to wonder if there's any group the non-Robins and Batgirls in the Batfam match up with.


You will probaly find a lot of matches.
There are some combinations of archetyps that are used quite frequntly for teams.
Dick, Jason and Tim fit quite well the Leader, Lancer and Smart Guy Archetype, while with Steph, Barbara and Cass you have basically the Beauty, Brains and Brawn and the Blonde, Brunette, Redhead trio. (You could probaly argue that Dick, Tim and Jason would also fit the Beauty, Brains and Brawn trope ...)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I really want Tim and Damian getting along with each other (with the sarcastic banters still there but no hard feelings). Damian is my fav and I have soft spot for Tim (the pre-flashpoint one) too so it'd be nice to see them getting along. Heck I'm reading fanfics about them gradually becoming bros already.


It would be good, but they dislike each other from the beginning. Even in the New52, where there was no real reason for it. I don't think they ever said something moderately nice to each other.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

The good old times, when Tim had a private life and he didn't wear his superhero costume all day.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

There was always a lot of drama in Tim's series. Dixon knows how to write interesting stories. 

Tim and Ariana

----------


## shadowsgirl

Karl Ranck's death

----------


## Magmaster12

Oh, man, do I hate Tim Drake's 90's haircut seems so dated.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, man, do I hate Tim Drake's 90's haircut seems so dated.


I still think it looks good, personally. Then again, I'm a 90's kid.

----------


## DragonPiece

Well guys, your patience has been rewarded. http://comicbook.com/2017/06/13/excl...d-detective-c/

----------


## Atlanta96

Sounds like not much has changed with Tim since he was imprisoned. I was hoping his return would be a bit more spectacular, but that's what happens when DC doesn't give a damn. How much will you bet his escape will involve hacking and pressing lots of buttons?

----------


## sakuyamons

> Well guys, your patience has been rewarded. http://comicbook.com/2017/06/13/excl...d-detective-c/


I'm cautiously excited about this! 

And I hope that whoever is locked with Tim is someone of the YJ4 and not an irrelevant side character.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm cautiously excited about this! 
> 
> And I hope that whoever is locked with Tim is someone of the YJ4 and not an irrelevant side character.


That would be neat! Are people after any particular YJ characters?

----------


## sakuyamons

> That would be neat! Are people after any particular YJ characters?


My ideal scenario is that is Kon and Wonder Girl, they are trapped with Tim and they cannot escape. But then Bart Allen breaks out the speedforce (the REAL one) and helps them escape saying something among the lines of 'Man, that sucked.'

----------


## Caivu

Here's the cover and solicit, just in case anyone can't see it otherwise:

detective-comics-965-eddy-barrows-lonely-place-of-living-1002695.jpg

*DETECTIVE COMICS #965*
Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art by EDDY BARROWS
Cover by EDDY BARROWS
Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE

A Lonely Place Of Living part one! Its the story youve demanded: Where in the world (or otherwise) is Tim Drake? Red Robin faces a crossroadsescape the most devious prison ever devised, or find himself abandoned beyond time and space for all eternity! Not much of a choice, right? But when he finds out just who is locked in there with him, Tims world will change in ways he never imagined! This is one of the biggest stories of the REBIRTH era, setting the stage for an explosive DETECTIVE COMICS epic!
On sale SEPTEMBER 27  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## KrustyKid

I really want the OG Bart back. Hopefully he returns during this whole event.

----------


## RedBird

Okay I'm hoping for Kon, but what if Tim is locked in there with his pre crisis counterpart and they pull a 'rebirth superman' by merging the two together?

----------


## Assam

> but what if Tim is locked in there with his pre crisis counterpart and they pull a 'rebirth superman' by merging the two together?


If that meant rewriting the history of the all the Batcharacters whose histories were destroyed by the Nu52, I'd be completely okay with that.

----------


## RedBird

> If that meant rewriting the history of the all the Batcharacters whose histories were destroyed by the Nu52, I'd be completely okay with that.


I doubt they would go that far, none of the other Batfamily members are really suffering right now. Despite my nit picks with the series Dicks Nightwing is doing just fine, Rhato has been well praised, and Damian as Robin is reaching all sorts of media, though the girls could use some work. In any case, I would hope hypothetically if rebirth Tim did 'merge' with precrisis Tim it would change him but send a shockwave through the batfam. EG: Nightwing suddenly remembers, "oh yeah I had an actual brotherly relationship with Tim as well, huh". Batman remember Tim reaching out to him and becoming ROBIN after Jason death etc. 

THAT BEING SAID, if we are discussing changes outside of this Mr Oz situation such as the timeline which I am praying will be fixed (they have mentioned it plenty of times that they cant just ignore it right?) I think realistically DC doesnt want to age the characters, that boat has sailed, but they understand by now that the fans want those years and that rich history put back in place. So I reckon (and hope) that by the end of rebirth we get some sort of situation where the characters will remember ALL those 'forgotten' years, have ALL those experiences back mentally, but realize that time and the universe has become "wibbly wobbly" and has condensed regardless. 
Then again I think this is also a fools dream, but one can hope.

----------


## Pohzee

Between this and the cover for the Spoiler issue, it looks like Bruce's forhead is getting progressively bigger. The covers are pretty similar with the mirrored Batman/villain background. I wonder if that's intentional.

----------


## Frontier

> Here's the cover and solicit, just in case anyone can't see it otherwise:
> 
> Attachment 50548
> 
> *DETECTIVE COMICS #965*
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by EDDY BARROWS
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS
> Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> ...


Hm. I wonder what the symbolism or meaning of him holding the suit like that is?

----------


## Atlanta96

I don't think his history will be rewritten. The writers seem intent on sticking to everything established during New 52 Batman no matter what fans think. I guess those New 52 changes are too brilliant to pass up.

----------


## fanfan13

> Here's the cover and solicit, just in case anyone can't see it otherwise:
> 
> Attachment 50548
> 
> *DETECTIVE COMICS #965*
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by EDDY BARROWS
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS
> Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> ...


Oh finally!

----------


## godisawesome

> Sounds like not much has changed with Tim since he was imprisoned. I was hoping his return would be a bit more spectacular, but that's what happens when DC doesn't give a damn. How much will you bet his escape will involve hacking and pressing lots of buttons?


I actually kind of figure one thing has changed since Tim went to Oz's House of Happy Incarceration; their plans for Tim's reintroduction. If Tynion and the guys on the Button originally intended for Bruce and others to discover Tim was alive, then that stuff being removed implies a significant change in plans. Which means that it's quite likely that Tim will stay behind to help his fellow prisoners.

Could it be that the book has him and others (Kon? Bart?) maybe effect an escape, but be on the run from Oz/Manhattan/Whatever it is that is supposed to be the hand indirectly behind about 5 years of $#!++y storytelling involving Tim? I've mentioned this elsewhere, but reintroducing Tim's history could be a messy thing; DC seems adamant that the B-word never be mentioned in conjunction with Cass or Steph, and they feared confusion over the name "Superboy" enough that they interupted a TT storyline just to have Lobdell (GRR!) write him out fo existance. If they have anything grand enough to encompass multiple characters being reintroduced, they may want to continue to play the, apart from the rest of the Rebirth events.

Here's a pitch for how they could use Tim to reintroduce the YJ cast, and to try and fix them without necessarily doing a hard reboot, even if I think most of the New 52 is worthless in regards to that generation. Tim figures out that he can escape, but also realizes his cell mates are familiar; it's Kon and Bart, and he not only remembers their actual, Pre-Flashpoint history, but also the New 52 version and he recognizes it as manufactured and forced. Maybe Oz's henchmen have some power similar to the Silents from Doctor Who, and can attack your memory, resulting in an explanation for why all three boys were "removed from the playing field" at different times and why their backstories seemed to always flux and why three legacy characters still existed without the context that originally justified their existance; they weren't exiled like Wally or pushed back like Cass and Steph, but were brainwashed to fit the new paradigm.

Now, Tim stays with the guys, and they manage to eventually escape, but Oz's goons are hot on their heels, and even when they reconnect with their mentors and friends, those friends and mentors have their memories erased again. So, Tim, who's now got a reason to be a bit more paranoid and also more strategically cunning, Kon who now has some very real anger and identity issues, and Bart, who wants to avoid the darkness by embracing his _impulsive_ side, form... The Team. They're still helping people and being heroes, but now they try to remain covert to avoid attracting Oz's attention. So you get a "Young Justice" book featuring a matured Red Robin-solo-esque Tim, a cartoon style Kon, and Impulse.

----------


## Pohzee

> I don't think his history will be rewritten. The writers seem intent on sticking to everything established during New 52 Batman no matter what fans think. I guess those New 52 changes are too brilliant to pass up.


I know that pessimism is your "thing," but given that Tynion recently posted a picture of A Lonely Place for Dying that he called "research" and the name of this upcoming arc that is directly reminicient of that story, I believe that it will be very likely that some version of Tim's post-Crisis origin will be reinstated into canon.

----------


## Caivu

For reference:

IMG_20170614_001212.jpg

detective-comics-965-eddy-barrows-lonely-place-of-living-1002695.jpg

(And is no one going to mention this is the 200th page?)

----------


## ComicBookGeek

> I actually kind of figure one thing has changed since Tim went to Oz's House of Happy Incarceration; their plans for Tim's reintroduction. If Tynion and the guys on the Button originally intended for Bruce and others to discover Tim was alive, then that stuff being removed implies a significant change in plans. Which means that it's quite likely that Tim will stay behind to help his fellow prisoners.
> 
> Could it be that the book has him and others (Kon? Bart?) maybe effect an escape, but be on the run from Oz/Manhattan/Whatever it is that is supposed to be the hand indirectly behind about 5 years of $#!++y storytelling involving Tim? I've mentioned this elsewhere, but reintroducing Tim's history could be a messy thing; DC seems adamant that the B-word never be mentioned in conjunction with Cass or Steph, and they feared confusion over the name "Superboy" enough that they interupted a TT storyline just to have Lobdell (GRR!) write him out fo existance. If they have anything grand enough to encompass multiple characters being reintroduced, they may want to continue to play the, apart from the rest of the Rebirth events.
> 
> Here's a pitch for how they could use Tim to reintroduce the YJ cast, and to try and fix them without necessarily doing a hard reboot, even if I think most of the New 52 is worthless in regards to that generation. Tim figures out that he can escape, but also realizes his cell mates are familiar; it's Kon and Bart, and he not only remembers their actual, Pre-Flashpoint history, but also the New 52 version and he recognizes it as manufactured and forced. Maybe Oz's henchmen have some power similar to the Silents from Doctor Who, and can attack your memory, resulting in an explanation for why all three boys were "removed from the playing field" at different times and why their backstories seemed to always flux and why three legacy characters still existed without the context that originally justified their existance; they weren't exiled like Wally or pushed back like Cass and Steph, but were brainwashed to fit the new paradigm.
> 
> Now, Tim stays with the guys, and they manage to eventually escape, but Oz's goons are hot on their heels, and even when they reconnect with their mentors and friends, those friends and mentors have their memories erased again. So, Tim, who's now got a reason to be a bit more paranoid and also more strategically cunning, Kon who now has some very real anger and identity issues, and Bart, who wants to avoid the darkness by embracing his _impulsive_ side, form... The Team. They're still helping people and being heroes, but now they try to remain covert to avoid attracting Oz's attention. So you get a "Young Justice" book featuring a matured Red Robin-solo-esque Tim, a cartoon style Kon, and Impulse.


That does sound like a great story concept. I am hoping along those lines as well. Many of the characters like Bart and Kon seem to be written out so that the spotlight won't be taken off of the new Kid Flash and Superboy. Which I understand for new characters to shine, sometimes old characters need to be taken away. But I feel like they can all exist and hope that DC sees this as well. September cannot come fast enough.

----------


## Alycat

Glad Tim is coming back. Hopefully he's being fixed too.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

there is hope

----------


## adrikito

> Here's the cover and solicit, just in case anyone can't see it otherwise:
> 
> Attachment 50548
> 
> *DETECTIVE COMICS #965*
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by EDDY BARROWS
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS
> Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> ...


I heard about that TODAY in another place.

CONTRATULATIONS TIM FANS(he returns and the 200 page is here too)... What a shame that Spoiler is not here.. Maybe the other prisoner is Kon-El..

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## SixSpeedSamurai

This forum needs a Thumbs Up botton, so many joys on this page!

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## Jadeb

Great to see Tim back. I hope they use the opportunity to fix him. But I have to admit, I'm not terribly optimistic. Sure, Tim's origin is messed up, but the problems with Tim in 'Tec were because Tynion was writing him, and that still's the case. There was no reason Tim had to be a smug, button-pressing supergenius other than that's how Tynion wants to portray him.

----------


## Objectively Biased

In my ideal world, Tim should be running the Teen Titans, Damian should be the Robin to Dick's Nightwing (establishing a new Dynamic Duo), while Jason would be headlining a new Outsiders team.

----------


## Midnighter

> I don't think his history will be rewritten. The writers seem intent on sticking to everything established during New 52 Batman no matter what fans think. I guess those New 52 changes are too brilliant to pass up.


Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but what are you basing this on?  Didn't Rebirth already roll back Jason's origin to the post-crisis one? 

Haven't elements of "Year One" been brought back?

Why might they not do that with Tim? Especially with the return to a costume that is so close to his original one , and even naming this story "A Lonely Place of Living"?

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## Atlanta96

> Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but what are you basing this on?  Didn't Rebirth already roll back Jason's origin to the post-crisis one? 
> 
> Haven't elements of "Year One" been brought back?
> 
> Why might they not do that with Tim? Especially with the return to a costume that is so close to his original one , and even naming this story "A Lonely Place of Living"?


Because A) DC doesn't care about Tim the way they support Jason and the other characters getting their histories fixed. B) Tynion seems to be a big New 52 fan, and has based most of his 'Tec run off of New 52 history. C) All the classic elements we've seen in 'Tec have been reintroduction as opposed to retcons. D) Let's face it when it comes to Tim its best to assume the worst. The negative point of view is probably the correct one.

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## Midnighter

Hmmm. I'd like to disagree but when I look at your avatar picture all I can see is a pacemaker, so point taken.

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## Atlanta96

> Hmmm. I'd like to disagree but when I look at your avatar picture all I can see is a pacemaker, so point taken.


I appreciate your brutal honesty.

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## sakuyamons

> In my ideal world, Tim should be running the Teen Titans, Damian should be the Robin to Dick's Nightwing (establishing a new Dynamic Duo), while Jason would be headlining a new Outsiders team.


I'd be alright with him in a YJ team since he was one of the founders. Unless Tim and the others "defy" Damian to leave the TT.

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## yohyoi

> In my ideal world, Tim should be running the Teen Titans, Damian should be the Robin to Dick's Nightwing (establishing a new Dynamic Duo), while Jason would be headlining a new Outsiders team.


I'm gonna be honest and say I am not so optimistic about Tim and his friends. I don't want to sound like a killjoy but it seems only Tynion cares about him in DC. I don't even know if Lobdell cared at all, since he destroyed Tim. It would take a Morrison or Dixon to fix him, and it will take years.

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## Objectively Biased

> I'm gonna be honest and say I am not so optimistic about Tim and his friends. I don't want to sound like a killjoy but it seems only Tynion cares about him in DC. I don't even know if Lobdell cared at all, since he destroyed Tim. It would take a Morrison or Dixon to fix him, and it will take years.


He's in such a weird place right now. What do they do with his character? He's been around too long to go back to the sidekick route, but then Damian took over his role leading the Teen Titans.

Dick and Jason are also leading their own groups, so to add _another_ one to the mix just feels redundant. I think sending him down the solo detective route (ala The Question) would be interesting.

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## Aioros22

> Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but what are you basing this on? Didn't Rebirth already roll back Jason's origin to the post-crisis one?


You aren`t wrong but they aren`t retreating to the old continuity as much as trying to balance elements between the two. For exemple, Loedbell has already mentioned that he didn`t rewrite anything, his meeting with Leslie doesn`t required never having stolen the tires of the super fancy car. It add layers to the origin like a mosaic. One can still be the first time Batman sees Jason and the next meeting the one where he meets him and introduces him to the Robin role. 

Same thing with Batman`s "Year" Zero and One. They brought elements of Miller`s work back (especially regarding Selina and Bruce but they haven`te erased Zero out with the sequel coming up soon in "War of Riddles and Jokes". 

I don`t disagree with neither of these two but of course tastes will vary and characters too. Some where more harmed than others by the reboot.

----------


## The Whovian

> Well guys, your patience has been rewarded. http://comicbook.com/2017/06/13/excl...d-detective-c/


Yesssssssssss!!! About time!

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## WhipWhirlwind

> He's in such a weird place right now. What do they do with his character? He's been around too long to go back to the sidekick route, but then Damian took over his role leading the Teen Titans.
> 
> Dick and Jason are also leading their own groups, so to add _another_ one to the mix just feels redundant. I think sending him down the solo detective route (ala The Question) would be interesting.


His place is the same as it has always been. He's spider-man meets batman, he's just a little older. 

He needs to be reunited with his parents and going to school, with an actual social life he can stress about along with his vigilante responsibilities.

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## SixSpeedSamurai

> His place is the same as it has always been. He's spider-man meets batman, he's just a little older. 
> 
> He needs to be reunited with his parents and going to school, with an actual social life he can stress about along with his vigilante responsibilities.


That is what made Tim great.   Though I hope they go back to at least his mom being dead and Jack being alive.   Make the Obeah man story count.

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## KrustyKid

> That is what made Tim great.   Though I hope they go back to at least his mom being dead and Jack being alive.   Make the Obeah man story count.


I hope both stay alive. There would be a whole nother dynamic to explore that way

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## the illustrious mr. kenway

I like YJ but they would feel redundant next to Titans. I'm interested in Tim going to College and trying to build a life for himself outside of superheroing. He could still be a part-time hero or a plain clothes detective or both.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> That is what made Tim great.   Though I hope they go back to at least his mom being dead and Jack being alive.   Make the Obeah man story count.


I say keep them both alive, but give Tim the memory of losing his mom and dad, further adding to the drama of splitting time between family/friends and heroics.

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## KrustyKid

> I say keep them both alive, but give Tim the memory of losing his mom and dad, further adding to the drama of splitting time between family/friends and heroics.


I'm in full agreement of this.

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## DragonPiece

I said this in another thread, but with the outsiders going to be appearing in detective comics soon, I wonder if it'll be connected to Tim Drake's story. Could he become a new member after he gets out of Oz's prison?

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## Assam

> I said this in another thread, but with the outsiders going to be appearing in detective comics soon, I wonder if it'll be connected to Tim Drake's story. Could he become a new member after he gets out of Oz's prison?


If we get a book with Tim on the Outsiders instead of a Young Justice book, I will be supremely pissed. 

Also annoyed that the Outsiders are going to pop up in 'Tec. It's like dumping a dry cracker into a bowl of sugary cereal.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm in full agreement of this.


It would actually be a good impetus for a series. 

"After gaining his old memories and realizing he's been given a second chance, Tim chooses to quit the vigilante life and move to Ivy Town to be closer to his parents and attend college, but little does he know (insert hook that gets him back to Robining here)."

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## KrustyKid

> It would actually be a good impetus for a series. 
> 
> "After gaining his old memories and realizing he's been given a second chance, Tim chooses to quit the vigilante life and move to Ivy Town to be closer to his parents and attend college, but little does he know (insert hook that gets him back to Robining here)."


That would be the perfect set up. I could certainly get behind that idea.

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## adrikito

key to rebirth? this is about tim drake:

https://www.newsarama.com/34965-key-...tim-drake.html

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## KrustyKid

> key to rebirth? this is about tim drake:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/34965-key-...tim-drake.html


Very insightful stuff on the process of Tim being created.

I also agree about the Jason bits.

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## acnblj

> key to rebirth? this is about tim drake:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/34965-key-...tim-drake.html


Great article

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## FlyingHero

Great read indeed. Makes me sad how far Tim has fallen.

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## yohyoi

> Yost: Robin was always supposed to be the light in Batman's world. … So honestly, I really wanted to bring the light back, to see Tim through the tunnel to the light at the end, and making sure it wasn't a train. I like that he can operate like Batman, be the detective, crack skulls, and still have a life. Still smile. He can be serious like Bruce, and enjoy it like Dick.… I have to believe that since Tim was in serious contention as someone who could take over for Bruce, seeing him evolve from Robin [to Red Robin] was inevitable.


This is the problem with Tim. He is basically Dick Grayson except smarter. Like Dick he is not a hero because of tragedy and revenge. Like Dick he is a great leader and has lots of friends. Like Dick he has a lot of girls falling in love with him. Tim even looks like a younger Dick Grayson in his Red Robin series. The only difference is he has a different origin and he loves to plan like Bruce. The writers trapped him in a fight of that niche in the Bat family against Dick Grayson. It's no wonder there is no Red Robin series in the New52.

Edit:

He was a great Robin, but Red Robin is just Nightwing-lite. They really need a new direction for Tim when he comes back.

This is how I see the Robins:
Dick: Who Bruce would be if there was someone to help and give him closure after the death of his parents. The classic hero.
Jason: Bruce's greatest failure. He is willing to kill for the greater good. The black sheep.
Tim: The only one who didn't come from a tragic background. Became Robin out of his own decision, because Batman needed one. The obedient son and the one who has a normal civilian life.
Damian: The anti-Robin walking the path of redemption. Trying to stay away from path of al Ghul. Batman's true heir in the future.

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## Assam

> He was a great Robin, but Red Robin is just Nightwing-lite. They really need a new direction *and personality* for Tim when he comes back.


Yeah, just change the character's personality, despite the fact that he _does_ have things that make him unique; that won't piss off the fanbase at all. 

I agree that he needs a new direction, but that's as simple as pushing the detective or teenage civilian life angle, niches no one else in the BatFam is currently occupying really. But well written, he is unique, and his personality is fine the way it is. When I say that Tim should come back from his months in isolation having gone crazy and decides to become Mr. Sarcastic full time, I'm mostly joking.

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## yohyoi

> Yeah, just change the character's personality, despite the fact that he _does_ have things that make him unique; that won't piss off the fanbase at all. 
> 
> I agree that he needs a new direction, but that's as simple as pushing the detective or teenage civilian life angle, niches no one else in the BatFam is currently occupying really. But well written, he is unique, and his personality is fine the way it is. When I say that Tim should come back from his months in isolation having gone crazy and decides to become Mr. Sarcastic full time, I'm mostly joking.


I was wrong to say personality. In my defense his personality changed from his Robin, pre-New52 Red Robin and New52 Red Robin days.

DC really needs a new identity for him. Red Robin series felt like Nightwing but with more detective work. Even his personality was bordering on Dick's in some moments. I can see why people would call him bland. He needs a name that will reflect his origin and the path he will take.

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## Assam

> Edit:
> This is how I see the Robins:
> Dick: Who Bruce would be if there was someone to help and give him closure after the death of his parents. The classic hero.
> Jason: Bruce's greatest failure. He is willing to kill for the greater good. The black sheep.
> Tim: The only one who didn't come from a tragic background. Became Robin out of his own decision, because Batman needed one. The obedient son and the one who has a normal civilian life.
> Damian: The anti-Robin walking the path of redemption. Trying to stay away from path of al Ghul. Batman's true heir in the future.


Apart from that last bit about Damian and your exclusion of Steph, I pretty much agree.

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## yohyoi

> Apart from that last bit about Damian and your exclusion of Steph, I pretty much agree.


I consider Steph more of a Batgirl. I'm not well read with the Batgirls.

Damian being the heir is debatable. I loved Morrison's run, so yeah I'm quite a Damian fan.

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## Aioros22

Aside from Creatives talking the article is pretty medíocre. On the whole (just your basic summary that doesn`t try to be fresh) and on Jason`s side.  How many times does it need to be said that Jason wasn`t vetoed out by the majority of calls to begin with? 

Interesting how the fandom wars on characters seem to extend to who writes articles too. Do you really need to bump down Jason to highlight Tim these days? This isn`t the 90`s anymore, Tim`s had full comic runs that can be studied on its own merits.

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## godisawesome

> I was wrong to say personality. In my defense his personality changed from his Robin, pre-New52 Red Robin and New52 Red Robin days.
> 
> DC really needs a new identity for him. Red Robin series felt like Nightwing but with more detective work. Even his personality was bordering on Dick's in some moments. I can see why people would call him bland. He needs a name that will reflect his origin and the path he will take.


I'm one of those guys who has zero problems with his late Robin solo to Red Robin solo personality and portrayal. Tim may be the golden boy and obedient son, but in the Red Robin solo they focused on his flaws and a vaguely bitter feeling towards some things (his lack of a normal life at times, his "finally fed up" reaction to some villains and henchmen), and good writers understood that simply having his personality be different from Dick's _should_ lead to very different actions and reactions:

-Tim isn't the highly charismatic team leader everyone loves to listen to, who shouts out formations and attack patterns. He's the idea guy and strategist, yes, but he's a bit of an introvert and sometimes juggles babysitting his teammates with accommodating their premature actions.
-Tim's very self-aware, but does tend to bottle up some emotions, but not so much anger like Bruce does, and more a kind of somber sadness and fear. Even before he lost his father, he was a little neurotic. He not only wants a normal social life, he kind of needs it for an outlet, arguably more than Bruce does.
-He's more of a hilariously unaware chick magnet than a traditional flirtation machine like Dick. That mostly goes without saying, but it's a major change in the way he interacts with love interests, female villains, and teammates. 
- Like the rest of the family, he was all about using intelligence and gambits against opponents, but he seemed a bit *too*in love with it. It may be cool to fake your death with a prop sword and blood packet, but it's not cool to see if you can kill Captian Boomerang with a well placed rumor.

That may be details, but I'm kind of inclined to consider that details are all you need. Half the guys on the Red Hood thread seem to like the more mellow, Nightwing-esque version of Jason, and I'm honestly unconcerned with any of this "characters need different purposes and missions" thing. Structurally, there really wasn't that much difference between a Nightwing issue and a Robin issue for the decade plus they were running concurrently.

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## FlyingHero

> This is the problem with Tim. He is basically Dick Grayson except smarter. Like Dick he is not a hero because of tragedy and revenge. Like Dick he is a great leader and has lots of friends. Like Dick he has a lot of girls falling in love with him. Tim even looks like a younger Dick Grayson in his Red Robin series. The only difference is he has a different origin and he loves to plan like Bruce. The writers trapped him in a fight of that niche in the Bat family against Dick Grayson. It's no wonder there is no Red Robin series in the New52.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> He was a great Robin, but Red Robin is just Nightwing-lite. They really need a new direction for Tim when he comes back.
> 
> This is how I see the Robins:
> Dick: Who Bruce would be if there was someone to help and give him closure after the death of his parents. The classic hero.
> Jason: Bruce's greatest failure. He is willing to kill for the greater good. The black sheep.
> ...


Sorry but Damian isn't this original character either. Hes a Jason lite. Jason's Robin was the first one who walked on the path of redemption. Bruce took him in so he wouldn't become another criminal. You can clearly see this in Injustice 2 where an older Damian is downright Red Hood 2.0 with the killing thing and angst. Damian is pretty much in the Tim situation and I firmly believe it's going to be more problematic when he gets older. All the character has going for is the messy artificial created son of Batman plot really. It's just that Tim situation is more clear because DC is barely putting any efforts into him since they want Damian to be the Robin. That's the real reason why there is no Red Robin series or anything with Tim really.

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## Atlanta96

> Sorry but Damian is a Jason lite. Jason's Robin was the first one who walked on the path of redemption. Bruce took him in so he wouldn't become another criminal. You can clearly see this in Injustice 2 where an older Damian is downright Red Hood 2.0 with the killing thing and angst. Damian is pretty much in the Tim situation and I firmly believe it's going to be more obvious when he gets older. All he has going for is the messy artificial created son of Batman plot really. It's just that Tim situation is more clear because DC is barely putting any efforts into him since they want Damian to be the Robin. That's the real reason why there is no Red Robin series or anything with Tim.


Yeah, I don't disagree. This problem could easily be averted if they gave Tim an identity that had nothing to do with Robin. But I don't think they care enough about this character to even try making him work. He will be around as long as Tynion is around, but I doubt he'll have anything better than supporting roles for the rest of his existence.

Another good character wasted by neglectful editors.

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## KrustyKid

> This is the problem with Tim. He is basically Dick Grayson except smarter. *Like Dick he is not a hero because of tragedy and revenge*. Like Dick he is a great leader and has lots of friends. Like Dick he has a lot of girls falling in love with him. Tim even looks like a younger Dick Grayson in his Red Robin series. The only difference is he has a different origin and he loves to plan like Bruce. The writers trapped him in a fight of that niche in the Bat family against Dick Grayson. It's no wonder there is no Red Robin series in the New52.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> He was a great Robin, but Red Robin is just Nightwing-lite. They really need a new direction for Tim when he comes back.
> 
> This is how I see the Robins:
> Dick: Who Bruce would be if there was someone to help and give him closure after the death of his parents. The classic hero.
> Jason: Bruce's greatest failure. He is willing to kill for the greater good. The black sheep.
> ...


Dick not a hero of tragedy? His Robin career was kick started by his parents death, so yes, Dick is a hero of tragedy unlike Tim who became a hero by choice.

Tim has a lot of friends, but he still isn't as great of a leader as Dick. The way they choose to lead is completely different. Yet another difference between the two.

By my count, there were only two women in the Red Robin series who really had any true feelings for Tim. Tam and Lynx(Ra's daughter just wanted to give him the business), probably something Ra's planned himself. So I wouldn't really say that many people were falling for Tim, anymore than you would see from most other superheros. Plus the way Tim interacts with women is completely different than Dick, he is less confident.. even a little social awkward at times.

In no way was Tim in the Red Robin series a Nightwing-lite. Half the shady stuff Tim was doing were things Dick would never do(Not even Batman), take that Captain Boomerang incident for example.

Going by your logic, then I guess we could say Damian is Bruce-lite or even Jason-lite. Which only works if you take each of these situations at face value, instead of seeing how each character will handle and react to similar situations differently.

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## The Whovian

> This is the problem with Tim. He is basically Dick Grayson except smarter.


Tim and Dick are nothing alike. Dick is one of the best acrobatic heroes in the DCU, if not the best. He suffered from tragedy when his parents were killed and Bruce took him into his home and under his wing at a young age. 

Tim is one of the smartest detectives and fighters in the DCU (not saying Dick isn't, but Robin has greater potential). He deduced that Bruce was Batman and became Robin at an older age than Dick. 

Their personalities are different as well. Tim is _like_ Batman in that he's very driven and serious (although not as much as Batman), while Dick is more light hearted and easy going.

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## Atlanta96

Too bad Tim is excluded from the Metal event when Dick, Damian and Babs all get their own tie in. What a superfluous and useless character Tim has become, he's barely part of the Bat-Family anymore.

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## Assam

> Too bad Tim is excluded from the Metal event when Dick, Damian and Babs all get their own tie in. What a superfluous and useless character Tim has become, he's barely part of the Bat-Family anymore.


It's not just Tim. Seemingly, the entire 'Tec team is being left out for whatever reason.

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## Frontier

> It's not just Tim. Seemingly, the entire 'Tec team is being left out for whatever reason.


I thought they were going to cover the Outsiders element of the event?

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## godisawesome

> Tim and Dick are nothing alike. Dick is one of the best acrobatic heroes in the DCU, if not the best. He suffered from tragedy when his parents were killed and Bruce took him into his home and under his wing at a young age. 
> 
> Tim is one of the smartest detectives and fighters in the DCU (not saying Dick isn't, but Robin has greater potential). He deduced that Bruce was Batman and became Robin at an older age than Dick. 
> 
> Their personalities are different as well. Tim is _like_ Batman in that he's very driven and serious (although not as much as Batman), while Dick is more light hearted and easy going.


I'd argue the real problem with Tim in the New 52 was bringing all his personality traits, all his skills, his romantic life, even his costume-- all the the little details that kind of define the character-- taking all that and making it closer to a broad interpretation of Dick Grayson circa the beginning of the New Teen Titans. They made him an acrobat, they put him in a domino mask costume with wings, they overplayed his combat skills, they had him speak and give commands like a generic leader archetype, they even tried to spice up his love life with a badly written sexcapade that actually qualified as assault (like Mirage and Dick). 

All of which only really made sense for a direction if you think, like I do, that they were dead set on redefining Tim as "the Teen Titans Robin. And unfortunately, this backfired hard, and in an awkward way; Lobdell's style on the book really seemed to become a throwback to the late 80's and early 90's at Marvel, while Tim had been defined by the more modern writing at DC at the same time. So Tim in the New 52 Teen Titans was written in a less sophisticated and mature style then when he first appeared!

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## Assam

> I thought they were going to cover the Outsiders element of the event?


The Outsiders are going to be popping up in 'Tec, but its just going to be in normal issues, as opposed to official tie-ins, not being included in the "Gotham Resistance".

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## James Hunter

> The Outsiders are going to be popping up in 'Tec, but its just going to be in normal issues, as opposed to official tie-ins, not being included in the "Gotham Resistance".


I'm not questioning this (its cool if true, DETECTIVE is still the best Batman comic for me, followed by BATWOMAN but I digress) but what's the source and do we have issue #s?

Cheers.

James.

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## shadowsgirl

Timmy <3 There's so much emotion on these pages.

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## Aahz

> Tim and Dick are nothing alike.


That really depends on the writer.

If you look for example at the original Teen Titans books, Dick also acted very much like the modern Tim. During his time with the outsiders Dick was also quite dark and driven and very Batman like (probaly more than Tim ever was), and Dick beeing a charismatic womaniser is also some thing that was added quite late to the chracter back in his teens he was usually also social awkward at times.

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## KrustyKid

Tim X Steph

----------


## KrustyKid

How Tim feels about his current state at DC,

tumblr_m7knemaA9k1qd5ksbo1_1280.jpg

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## Assam

> How Tim feels about his current state at DC,
> 
> tumblr_m7knemaA9k1qd5ksbo1_1280.jpg


That sweet Summer child. He had no idea how bad it would get. 

Also, How DC _feels_ about Tim: 

DCs tratment of Tim.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> That sweet Summer child. He had no idea how bad it would get. 
> 
> Also, How DC _feels_ about Tim: 
> 
> DCs tratment of Tim.jpg


Why does that seem so accurate, lol

----------


## Atlanta96

> That sweet Summer child. He had no idea how bad it would get. 
> 
> Also, How DC _feels_ about Tim: 
> 
> DCs tratment of Tim.jpg


If that accurately showed how DC feels about Tim, it would be a LOT more explicit than that. But somehow just as petty.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

It still astounds me that Dan Didio's regime looked at Young Justice (which did its job in getting me into DC comic books at a young age) and said "It's not working. We're cancelling you." And it gets hilarious when you hear a big part of the "last straw" was Lil'Lobo/Slobo, when you consider what their idea of an update for the character was.

And I did love how Tim was effectively having to babysit his teammates. And how Batman seemed to subtly troll Robin into leading the team against Despero to prove their worth.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Sorry but Damian isn't this original character either. Hes a Jason lite. Jason's Robin was the first one who walked on the path of redemption. Bruce took him in so he wouldn't become another criminal. You can clearly see this in Injustice 2 where an older Damian is downright Red Hood 2.0 with the killing thing and angst. Damian is pretty much in the Tim situation and I firmly believe it's going to be more problematic when he gets older. All the character has going for is the messy artificial created son of Batman plot really. It's just that Tim situation is more clear because DC is barely putting any efforts into him since they want Damian to be the Robin. That's the real reason why there is no Red Robin series or anything with Tim really.


I mean Jason is an aristocratic priggish  child solider who was born and Bred to be the next Alexander.
Jason is a crazy talented  genius who frankly is and tells you that he's better than you.
Jason is a stone cold disrespectful brat with  a superiority complex who treats most people like crap because he believes the world is his.

Jason is a stab happy assassin with a need to kill who became a good guy herol. He literally had major withdrawal issues as he battled the urge to kill!
Jason is Batman only success. The one villain he managed to  redeem.

 I could carry on  but need to get to bed point is Jason and Damian are not alike. 
At all. 
Theye are in fact polar opposites and says a lot about how you know [don't know] your favourite character.

You think Injustice Damian is downright Jason 2.0? So Jason is DBag?

You are aware that  Jason is  a lot more than killing and angst? and comic Damian is OH so much much more than Killing and angst?
Damian does not kill and he has never  ever been angsty .  That type of weakness was bred out of him.

You don't know these characters well. Their personalities, everything that drives and defines them is so very different.

Also becoming Robin because some dude asked and because you don't want to be a thief isn't really a Redemption arc and both Bruce and Dick did it before Jason. I stopped going to pubs to stop becoming more of a drunken asshole. Is that redemption?

Nor was Jason the 1st family member to kill.

Damian is the Anti Robin.



I loved the Red Robin series. Tim had his game on.
I don't mind him being a little like Nightwwing so long as they keep a little of his nerdy slightly awkward thinking in my head Timness.

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## Assam

> I mean Jason is an aristocratic priggish  child solider who was born and Bred to be the next Alexander.
> Jason is a crazy talented  genius who frankly is and tells you that he's better than you.
> Jason is a stone cold disrespectful brat with  a superiority complex who treats most people like crap because he believes the world is his.
> 
> Jason is a stab happy assassin with a need to kill who became a good guy herol. He literally had major withdrawal issues as he battled the urge to kill!
> Jason is Batman only success. The one villain he managed to  redeem.


You referred to Jason on all of these even though your were talking about Damian in some of them Whoops. 

Also. 



> _Damian_ is Batman only success. The one villain he managed to  redeem.


Clayface: *Puts arms in the air* "Dude!"

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## Assam

> And it gets hilarious when you hear a big part of the "last straw" was Lil'Lobo/Slobo.


I love how it's almost guaranteed at this point that if DiDio hates someone (Cass, Steph, Slobo) or something (Happiness, heroes being married, _52_), it's someone or something really good. 

Not always the case of course, but more often than not.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## CPSparkles

> You referred to Jason on all of these even though your were talking about Damian in some of them Whoops. 
> 
> Also. 
> 
> 
> Clayface: *Puts arms in the air* "Dude!"


No I was making a point.

Basil redeemed himself.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Tim and Dick are nothing alike. Dick is one of the best acrobatic heroes in the DCU, if not the best. He suffered from tragedy when his parents were killed and Bruce took him into his home and under his wing at a young age. 
> 
> Tim is one of the smartest detectives and fighters in the DCU (not saying Dick isn't, but Robin has greater potential). He deduced that Bruce was Batman and became Robin at an older age than Dick. 
> 
> Their personalities are different as well. Tim is _like_ Batman in that he's very driven and serious (although not as much as Batman), while Dick is more light hearted and easy going.


Yes Tim and Dick are  very different. I think poster was talking about Tim growing into Nightwing lite the mantle not the guy behind the mask.

However current Tim is an Olympic level acrobat and current Dick figured out batman's identity.

Also pet peeve. I know fans like to site "figured out Batman's identity" as a sign of Tim's smart's but that it doesn't show that. It's a sign of good eyesight , remembering and convenient coincidences.
I've never liked that story because it makes Tim less special because literally anyone could do that no skill or smarts required just convenient coincidences.

 It doesn't do Tim any favours rather make him come across as some weird Batman stalker with a disturbing Dick Grayson fetish.

A characterisation that to this day we see in fan work's of Tim. It is extra prevalent in Fanfics . I don't like that

----------


## CPSparkles

> Too bad Tim is excluded from the Metal event when Dick, Damian and Babs all get their own tie in. What a superfluous and useless character Tim has become, he's barely part of the Bat-Family anymore.


Common Man now you're simply being negative because reasons not all family members are in this

----------


## Aioros22

I love Grummet and Wolfman`s Titans but boy stuff like that is why I skipped that material.

----------


## Aahz

> 


Tim revealed his civilaian ideantity in front of Deathstroke ???

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim revealed his civilaian ideantity in front of Deathstroke ???


Back then, Slade was in good terms with the Titans. He knew everyone's identity, but yeah, still a stupid move.

----------


## godisawesome

> Yes Tim and Dick are  very different. I think poster was talking about Tim growing into Nightwing lite the mantle not the guy behind the mask.
> 
> However current Tim is an Olympic level acrobat and current Dick figured out batman's identity.
> 
> *Also pet peeve. I know fans like to site "figured out Batman's identity" as a sign of Tim's smart's but that it doesn't show that. It's a sign of good eyesight , remembering and convenient coincidences.
> I've never liked that story because it makes Tim less special because literally anyone could do that no skill or smarts required just convenient coincidences.*
> 
>  It doesn't do Tim any favours rather make him come across as some weird Batman stalker with a disturbing Dick Grayson fetish.
> 
> A characterisation that to this day we see in fan work's of Tim. It is extra prevalent in Fanfics . I don't like that


That's one of the few reasons why I understand the idea of updating Tim's origin, like they tried to do in the New 52 and failed at. The tricky part is making Tim awesome via uncovering the identities but not so hyper-intelligent and boring in his methods that it doesn't click with the audience. Lobdell's initial idea of how Tim would try and uncover the identities in an updated version, via forensic accounting is unfortunately really hard to make interesting (The Accountant movie pulled it off, but that's a movie with accounting as a literal half of the premise), and doesn't have that intuitive logic that pulls readers in quite like seeing a show as a child and recognizing the star under different circumstances and disguises.

Which is why I think you could update it a bit; have Tim witness Dick's performance as a kid, become aware of that possible connection, give him an added motivation to seek the knowledge (like maybe needing to get Batman's help for his family when the Penguin comes for them), and use more logic based reasoning for his conclusion: he becomes aware of/assists Jason Todd as Robin in helping his family, Jason dies, Robin dies, 2+2= Bruce Wayne is Batman.

And if you want to make sure Batman's Identity si still plausibly safe, have Tim do some forensics accounting and find that the trail is covered sufficiently it can't be proven, and key off his personal experiences with both previous Robins for why that doesn't stop him.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm of the opinion that Tim should absolutely be annoying. Annoying like, Cumberbatch Holmes levels of annoying. Just without the weird antisocial tendencies. But definitely the rattling off all the information/know-it-all tendencies. He should be fantastic at handling like, Riddler crimes, where a ridiculous city-wide infrastructure puzzle needs to be solved. But kind of terrible in a scenario where like, Joker is killing lots of people, because while he's a hero and saves people, the heavy murder freaky anarchic stuff still really rattles him - I mean before story's end, Batman should always be like "okay, partner, pep talk, you can do this, you gotta take a deep breath, think about the angles, we'll save the day", but with his young age and "relative" inexperience compared to Bruce or Dick (I say relative because at this point he's still more experienced than a LOT of young justice age heroes) handling the all-out massacre stuff might still be a bit rough. Like, if they come across a corpse he can treat it scientifically and look for clues ... but if he's witnessing people dying, he gets rattled. I'd like to see him embody "The Detective" but not really be the best "Dark Knight".

Anywho! Can't freaking wait for September and for Tim to come back.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's one of the few reasons why I understand the idea of updating Tim's origin, like they tried to do in the New 52 and failed at. The tricky part is making Tim awesome via uncovering the identities but not so hyper-intelligent and boring in his methods that it doesn't click with the audience. Lobdell's initial idea of how Tim would try and uncover the identities in an updated version, via forensic accounting is unfortunately really hard to make interesting (The Accountant movie pulled it off, but that's a movie with accounting as a literal half of the premise), and doesn't have that intuitive logic that pulls readers in quite like seeing a show as a child and recognizing the star under different circumstances and disguises.
> 
> Which is why I think you could update it a bit; have Tim witness Dick's performance as a kid, become aware of that possible connection, give him an added motivation to seek the knowledge (like maybe needing to get Batman's help for his family when the Penguin comes for them), and use more logic based reasoning for his conclusion: he becomes aware of/assists Jason Todd as Robin in helping his family, Jason dies, Robin dies, 2+2= Bruce Wayne is Batman.
> 
> And if you want to make sure Batman's Identity si still plausibly safe, have Tim do some forensics accounting and find that the trail is covered sufficiently it can't be proven, and key off his personal experiences with both previous Robins for why that doesn't stop him.


Oooh, well said. I actually don't think the refashioning of Tim's origin in the n52 was quite as much of a failure as a lot of other Tim fans - but I do think it's a surface level attempt to paper over a much deeper flaw.

On the other hand, I'm glad it's not The Dark Knight Rises, where John Blake just KNOWS Bruce Wayne is Batman.  That's really obnoxious.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Rebirth Tim

----------


## SpecialAgentPunk

It started as a Mary Tyler Moore sitcom, took a left into a heavy China Beach drama, then ended with a Mr. Roger's 'You're gonna be great, kid!'

Although it's tonally all over the place, there are the staple Bat-family dynamics where the mentor is at odds with the trainee. It could have been stronger, which Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin did, by having Dick at odds with resisting his natural gentler approach and instead force himself to act more like a dick ala Bruce Wayne.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm of the opinion that Tim should absolutely be annoying. Annoying like, Cumberbatch Holmes levels of annoying. Just without the weird antisocial tendencies. But definitely the rattling off all the information/know-it-all tendencies. He should be fantastic at handling like, Riddler crimes, where a ridiculous city-wide infrastructure puzzle needs to be solved. But kind of terrible in a scenario where like, Joker is killing lots of people, because while he's a hero and saves people, the heavy murder freaky anarchic stuff still really rattles him - I mean before story's end, Batman should always be like "okay, partner, pep talk, you can do this, you gotta take a deep breath, think about the angles, we'll save the day", but with his young age and "relative" inexperience compared to Bruce or Dick (I say relative because at this point he's still more experienced than a LOT of young justice age heroes) handling the all-out massacre stuff might still be a bit rough. Like, if they come across a corpse he can treat it scientifically and look for clues ... but if he's witnessing people dying, he gets rattled. I'd like to see him embody "The Detective" but not really be the best "Dark Knight".
> 
> Anywho! Can't freaking wait for September and for Tim to come back.


I like this angle, I think part of how he operates is that he's not solving a murder, he's solving a "problem". He's not dealing with people, he's dealing with "pieces". 

However, he's not doing it because he's cold like Batman, he's doing it because its the only way he can work, and since he can't completely shut himself off like Cumberholmes, its a struggle for him.

----------


## Jadeb

It's really hard to write know-it-alls well. We've seen them try with Tim since the New 52, and it's been a complete catastrophe. Besides, Damian is already bratty and difficult -- Tim shouldn't be the poor man's version of that. Tim is better as the everyman. That's his niche.

----------


## NoShooty

Tim Drake will be retiring his Red Robin persona.  

The title is "A Lonely Place of Living" obviously a play on Tim's original appearance in "a Lonely Place of Dying". The cover art is also a throwback to the original comic.  On the original cover it was Dick Grayson holding the Robin costume, having moved on to nightwing.  Now it is Tim Drake holding his RR costume identically to how Dick was in that original cover.  Tim is moving on and thank god, cause he deserves to be something greater than Red Robin.

I just hope he gets his cowl back.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Tim Drake will be retiring his Red Robin persona.  
> 
> The title is "A Lonely Place of Living" obviously a play on Tim's original appearance in "a Lonely Place of Dying". The cover art is also a throwback to the original comic.  On the original cover it was Dick Grayson holding the Robin costume, having moved on to nightwing.  Now it is Tim Drake holding his RR costume identically to how Dick was in that original cover.  Tim is moving on and thank god, cause he deserves to be something greater than Red Robin.
> 
> I just hope he gets his cowl back.


I don't think they'd have given him a redesign if they intended to retire it only a year later.

----------


## NoShooty

> I don't think they'd have given him a redesign if they intended to retire it only a year later.


It wasn't much of a redesign. They just gave him back his old costume. Sort of to symbolize that this was "old Tim" which was fitting considering this is rebirth and one of Tynion's objectives was to fix Tim and reintroduce him to the audience.

Well the biggest problem the audience and Tim fans have is that this character is out of place and has such a weak identity now. Best way to solve that is to give him an important arc and a new identidy.

And you should definitely go back and look at the two covers. They are identical. Swapping Dick out for Tim is just too big of a hint for this not to be greatly considered.

----------


## godisawesome

If they did give him a new suit and ID, then his current Rebirth one would have served its purpose; I'm one to think that his redesign was in part to assure new readers they were getting a different take on Tim, even if the writing leaned into the New 52 tropes a bit. And I really want to see him progress back to something like the cowled costume.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Wink:

----------


## godisawesome

Now I'm picturing a whole scene between the characters following up on their room styles, all done to hilariously constrast them:

- Jason drinks coffee, Tim chugs 4 Loko and Red Bull.
- Jason owns a barely touched last generation gaming console, Tim's a PC snob who mods his own games.
- Jason's favorite films are classic noir movies (I think he canonically shared this love with Bullock), Tim owns the entire special edition LOTR trilogy.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Now I'm picturing a whole scene between the characters following up on their room styles, all done to hilariously constrast them:
> 
> - Jason drinks coffee, Tim chugs 4 Loko and Red Bull.
> - Jason owns a barely touched last generation gaming console, Tim's a PC snob who mods his own games.
> - Jason's favorite films are classic noir movies (I think he canonically shared this love with Bullock), Tim owns the entire special edition LOTR trilogy.


Jason and his classic movie collection, I like it.  :Big Grin:  And yes, Tim needs a lot of nerdy stuff  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Warlocks and Warriors





Poor Tim

----------


## Assam

Not gonna lie, I'd rather read an issue that was just Tim and his buds playing DND (or rather WNW) than an action packed issue where Tim was a smug asshole who saves the day with button-fu. 

The civilian stuff really was a major highlight of Tim's book (And older comics in general) that's sourly missed.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Not gonna lie, I'd rather read an issue that was just Tim and his buds playing DND (or rather WNW) than an action packed issue where Tim was a smug asshole who saves the day with button-fu. 
> 
> The civilian stuff really was a major highlight of Tim's book (And older comics in general) that's sourly missed.


Are you kidding? A whole issue where Tim is just a simple geek would be awesome. I don't care about the action, my favourite parts of Tim's series were always the civilian stuffs and the thought bubbles. I loved his slightly introvert personality and his inner struggles. He had a lot of self-doubt and awkward moments, so he actually felt like a real, relatable person. New52/Rebirth Tim is unbearable with his self-healing building and his genius level intellect. I hate when NewTim brags about how smart and awesome he is. The real Tim would never do that. His humbleness was the most awesome thing in him. He worked really hard for everything and it took years for him to become a true professional, because he didn't born perfect like his New52 counterpart.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Are you kidding? A whole issue where Tim is just a simple geek would be awesome. I don't care about the action, my favourite parts of Tim's series were always the civilian stuffs and the thought bubbles. I loved his slightly introvert personality and his inner struggles. He had a lot of self-doubt and awkward moments, so he actually felt like a real, relatable person. New52/Rebirth Tim is unbearable with his self-healing building and his genius level intellect. I hate when NewTim brags about how smart and awesome he is. The real Tim would never do that. His humbleness was the most awesome thing in him. He worked really hard for everything and it took years for him to become a true professional, because he didn't born perfect like his New52 counterpart.


Except New-52 Tim is far from perfect. Take his TT team for example, I'd say they failed more missions than they actually accomplished. He's is also a really bad leader(Pre-52 Tim was better in that regard). Heck, I wouldn't trust current Tim to run a hot dog stand. Plus current Tim also sucks as a fighter, outside of street thugs he's gotten owned by anyone even remotely notable; Harper, Damian, Mother, etc.

The only thing current Tim has going for him is tec smarts. Even then everyone seems to hack his systems like it's nobodies business. Other than that Pre-52 Tim is better than him in every category across the board; leadership, fighter, tactition, marksmanship, more level headed, overall intelligence.

I'm just not getting why everyone keeps saying current Tim is like perfect at everything, but in reality he is only competent in one field and is dangerously lacking at everything else.

----------


## godisawesome

> Are you kidding? A whole issue where Tim is just a simple geek would be awesome. I don't care about the action, my favourite parts of Tim's series were always the civilian stuffs and the thought bubbles. I loved his slightly introvert personality and his inner struggles. He had a lot of self-doubt and awkward moments, so he actually felt like a real, relatable person. New52/Rebirth Tim is unbearable with his self-healing building and his genius level intellect. I hate when NewTim brags about how smart and awesome he is. The real Tim would never do that. His humbleness was the most awesome thing in him. He worked really hard for everything and it took years for him to become a true professional, because he didn't born perfect like his New52 counterpart.


I always thought a good way to update Tim's geekiness and really showcase the split between his world's would be for him to be waiting for the computer to solve something in the Batcave, and spend his free time playing WOW or some other online game with Ives, chatting it up on a headset while still in most of his suit. It even struck me as funny idea that Lonnie Machin could join them as a hacked up super player that Tim hates facing.



> Except New-52 Tim is far from perfect. Take his TT team for example, I'd say they failed more missions than they actually accomplished. He's is also a really bad leader(Pre-52 Tim was better in that regard). Heck, I wouldn't trust current Tim to run a hot dog stand. Plus current Tim also sucks as a fighter, outside of street thugs he's gotten owned by anyone even remotely notable; Harper, Damian, Mother, etc.
> 
> The only thing current Tim has going for him is tec smarts. Even then everyone seems to hack his systems like it's nobodies business. Other than that Pre-52 Tim is better than him in every category across the board; leadership, fighter, tactition, marksmanship, more level headed, overall intelligence.
> 
> I'm just not getting why everyone keeps saying current Tim is like perfect at everything, but in reality he is only competent in one field and is dangerously lacking at everything else.


Actually, I think Tim's fighting skills in the New 52 *were* overblown-- but only in Teen Titans, where they had him doing stuff like stunning and subduing Superboy with his stupid special-metal wings, or stabbing Trigon in the eyes with the same wings, or likewise just using his stupid metal wings. In the Batbooks, he tended to get portrayed more humbly in fighting, though I can't qualify the fight with Damian as a loss, since I keep remembering that fight mostly being a mutual Asskicking where Damian's "win" was supposed to be pointing out the effects of The Culling on Tim's psyche. I quite clearly remember Damian getting smashed through a console, and while Tim was bloodied just as much as Damian, I also remember him collapsing his staff and getting back on his motorbike unchallenged at the end of it. 

By the by, I dropped the B&RE book before the Mother fight, so I believe you in her getting the win, but when did Harper beat a conscious Tim Drake? I think they grappled in the Mad Hatter part of BE, but mind control pretty much frees you from comparison arguments.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I always thought a good way to update Tim's geekiness and really showcase the split between his world's would be for him to be waiting for the computer to solve something in the Batcave, and spend his free time playing WOW or some other online game with Ives, chatting it up on a headset while still in most of his suit. It even struck me as funny idea that Lonnie Machin could join them as a hacked up super player that Tim hates facing.
> 
> Actually, I think Tim's fighting skills in the New 52 *were* overblown-- but only in Teen Titans, where they had him doing stuff like stunning and subduing Superboy with his stupid special-metal wings, or stabbing Trigon in the eyes with the same wings, or likewise just using his stupid metal wings. In the Batbooks, he tended to get portrayed more humbly in fighting, though I can't qualify the fight with Damian as a loss, since I keep remembering that fight mostly being a mutual Asskicking where Damian's "win" was supposed to be pointing out the effects of The Culling on Tim's psyche. I quite clearly remember Damian getting smashed through a console, and while Tim was bloodied just as much as Damian, I also remember him collapsing his staff and getting back on his motorbike unchallenged at the end of it. 
> 
> By the by, I dropped the B&RE book before the Mother fight, so I believe you in her getting the win, but when did Harper beat a conscious Tim Drake? I think they grappled in the Mad Hatter part of BE, but mind control pretty much frees you from comparison arguments.


Exactly it was a psychological battle where Tim attacked Damian with a weapon and Damian was just smirking, making quips and not actually fighting back. 
He was basically trolling Tim and it was an outright loss for Tim however you spin it mentally psychical because his opponent was smiling all the way, not actually fighting back and took all of 1 minute to get into his head and completely manipulate him. It was a loss.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I always thought a good way to update Tim's geekiness and really showcase the split between his world's would be for him to be waiting for the computer to solve something in the Batcave, and spend his free time playing WOW or some other online game with Ives, chatting it up on a headset while still in most of his suit. It even struck me as funny idea that Lonnie Machin could join them as a hacked up super player that Tim hates facing.
> 
> Actually, I think Tim's fighting skills in the New 52 *were* overblown-- but only in Teen Titans, where they had him doing stuff like stunning and subduing Superboy with his stupid special-metal wings, or stabbing Trigon in the eyes with the same wings, or likewise just using his stupid metal wings. In the Batbooks, he tended to get portrayed more humbly in fighting, though I can't qualify the fight with Damian as a loss, since I keep remembering that fight mostly being a mutual Asskicking where Damian's "win" was supposed to be pointing out the effects of The Culling on Tim's psyche. I quite clearly remember Damian getting smashed through a console, and while Tim was bloodied just as much as Damian, I also remember him collapsing his staff and getting back on his motorbike unchallenged at the end of it. 
> 
> By the by, I dropped the B&RE book before the Mother fight, so I believe you in her getting the win, but when did Harper beat a conscious Tim Drake? I think they grappled in the Mad Hatter part of BE, but mind control pretty much frees you from comparison arguments.


Tim getting the drop on Superboy was understandable. It was already explained that if Superboy isn't focused he is vulnerable, Tim took advantage of that. The thing is, Tim showed no actual skill, he just cut people with his wings from time to time. One could argue Trigon allowed Tim to cut him( to make him believe he had the upper hand).

I was actually referring to the time where Damian beat Tim with a single punch. Not only did Tim show he didn't know how to dodge, he got taken out with a single hit. Harper floored Tim in Batman Eternal, and Mother made Tim look like a rookie as well.

My point is, Tim hasn't shown any actual 'skill' that is worthy of being classified as someone trained by Batman. The whole Olympic level thing was just tagged onto him, Tim really didn't show anything remotely impressive in that department either. 

Outside of tech, current Tim really has nothing going for him.

----------


## Jadeb

That's a big problem with the post-52 portrayal and what I really hate about how Tynion writes him. He doesn't get to actually do cool stuff, he just pushes his button and tells us how great he is. His major accomplishments, like creating that idiotic self-healing building or designing that vast network of underground trains, happen off-panel. I'd trade all that nonsense for some small moments where Tim has to think his way out of a bind or spends some time nerding out with his friends.

----------


## Aahz

> That's a big problem with the post-52 portrayal and what I really hate about how Tynion writes him. He doesn't get to actually do cool stuff, he just pushes his button and tells us how great he is. His major accomplishments, like creating that idiotic self-healing building or designing that vast network of underground trains, happen off-panel. I'd trade all that nonsense for some small moments where Tim has to think his way out of a bind or spends some time nerding out with his friends.


Btw. did they ever use the underground trains? The only invertion that seems to be used is the Mud Room.

----------


## Aahz

> I was actually referring to the time where Damian beat Tim with a single punch. Not only did Tim show he didn't know how to dodge, he got taken out with a single hit. Harper floored Tim in Batman Eternal, and Mother made Tim look like a rookie as well.


 These issues were imo some of the worst cases of jobbing/PIS in the new 52 Batman comics.




> My point is, Tim hasn't shown any actual 'skill' that is worthy of being classified as someone trained by Batman. The whole Olympic level thing was just tagged onto him, Tim really didn't show anything remotely impressive in that department either.


I think the Olympic Athlete is something that they should drop from his origin, should he get a new one in rebirth. The writers ignored it anyway, and Dick and Jason the more physical characters.

----------


## KrustyKid

> *These issues were imo some of the worst cases of jobbing/PIS in the new 52 Batman comics*.
> 
> I think the Olympic Athlete is something that they should drop from his origin, should he get a new one in rebirth. The writers ignored it anyway, and Dick and Jason the more physical characters.


But when stuff like that consistently happens to Tim, can we really call it PIS?

On the other point, I'd even say Cass, Steph, and Damian are all also more physically gifted than Tim.

----------


## Assam

> On the other point, I'd even say Cass, Steph, and Damian are all also more physically gifted than Tim.


Yeah. Cass is obvious, Damian I'd say has passed Tim in physicals during the Nu52, and I also agree with Steph. Her and Tim were always shown to be equals (And Steph agrees, as shown in Convergence), and even Batman (At a point I don't _think_ he was trying to manipulate her) said she had the potential to be a better fighter than Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah. Cass is obvious, Damian I'd say has passed Tim in physicals during the Nu52, and I also agree with Steph. Her and Tim were always shown to be equals (And Steph agrees, as shown in Convergence), and even Batman (At a point I don't _think_ he was trying to manipulate her) said she had the potential to be a better fighter than Tim.


Exactly. Which is why I don't get why people keep claiming current Tim is perfect like at everything. He's only OP when it comes to tech. He's actually heavily nerfed compared to what he used to be.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah. Cass is obvious, Damian I'd say has passed Tim in physicals during the Nu52, and I also agree with Steph. Her and Tim were always shown to be equals (And Steph agrees, as shown in Convergence), and even Batman (At a point I don't _think_ he was trying to manipulate her) said she had the potential to be a better fighter than Tim.


Yeah but to be fair I don't think it was the fact that he was defeated that bugs people, but how. One punch? Really? Just one punch?
Although if we are being honest that whole 'problem' in Robin War was less purposeful 'jobbing' and more deceitful marketing/presentation.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah but to be fair I don't think it was the fact that he was defeated that bugs people, but how. One punch? Really? Just one punch?
> Although if we are being honest that whole 'problem' in Robin War was less purposeful 'jobbing' and more deceitful marketing/presentation.


I was just stating my opinion on their fighting capabilities. I agree with you. I've got no problem at this point with Damian beating Tim, but it should have been a real fight. (In terms of overall capabilities, Damian, Tim, and Steph are very close in my mind) 

I've read very little of Robin WAR, and I have zero desire to read more.

----------


## RedBird

> (In terms of overall capabilities, Damian, Tim, and Steph are very close in my mind)


Agreed. Thats exactly where I place them as well, lower tier to the rest of the family but understandably so, considering their background, experience or age.




> I've read very little of Robin WAR, and I have zero desire to read more.


A wise choice XD

----------


## millernumber1

> I was just stating my opinion on their fighting capabilities. I agree with you. I've got no problem at this point with Damian beating Tim, but it should have been a real fight. (In terms of overall capabilities, Damian, Tim, and Steph are very close in my mind) 
> 
> I've read very little of Robin WAR, and I have zero desire to read more.


Well, I would say read the Tom King issues, but...  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl

It's very similar to Bruce's disguise from The Dark Knight Returns

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

> I was just stating my opinion on their fighting capabilities. I agree with you. I've got no problem at this point with Damian beating Tim, but it should have been a real fight. (*In terms of overall capabilities*, Damian, Tim, and Steph are very close in my mind) 
> 
> I've read very little of Robin WAR, and I have zero desire to read more.


If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.


So what? Tim washed the floor with him several times in the old universe. New52 made Damian ridiculously strong in every area, while as you said, the writers reduced Tim's all abilities.

----------


## Assam

> If we're talking raw fighting ability I'd say Steph and Tim are close, given that Steph has less bad showings I'd give her the slight edge over Tim. I honestly feel Damian is an entire tier above the two currently. He's already beaten Tim twice in the New-52, Damian also kept up with Deathstroke for a bit. I can't see Tim and Steph managing something like that even together.


In terms of pure martial abilities, I agree with what you said. However, between Tim's intelligence (I know Damian is very smart as well but he doesn't rely on his brains as much in combat) and Steph's off-the-cuff thinking and resourcefulness (Which I think is only possibly matched by Dick and Cass), the two could each hold their own with Damian. Frankly, I'd say Tim and Steph as Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin and Batgirl are flat-out superior to Damian in skill, because while the Nu52 buffed Damian, Tim got nerfed, and Steph still lacks feats.

----------


## RedBird

How do you guys rate fighting abilities anyway? Is is all based on 'showings'? If thats the case then Batman could on any scale be the best of worst fighter ever considering how many times he absolutely annihilates his enemies (when the writing call for it) or is thrashed and completely rendered helpless (when the writing calls for it). See where I'm going with this.

I mean, its all based on whatever the plot needs to happen, not really 'who is the better fighter'. I love Steph but Tom King could have Steph beat Batman to a pulp in the next issue of TEC and I wouldnt consider that to add to her rep or consider her more capable because of it, I'd cry fowl play cause based on what I know of the two characters that does not fit nor make sense of both her training and the length of time she has dedicated to said training.


Me personally I look at their skillset, training, along with various real world aspects such as size, age and weight to also judge HOW their style may evolve. DC writers dont think that far ahead though, they just write the winner of a story because thats what the plot needed. Just like that Robin War thing between Damian and Tim which was the result of lazy writing, not based on capability, (writers dont care) but based on, like I said before, deceitful marketing.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Does everyone really forget what happened? Tim said that he isn't going to fight with Damian. He didn't even try to do anything. He just stood there and wanted to talk with him. It wasn't a fight, and the writing was pathetic.

----------


## KrustyKid

> In terms of pure martial abilities, I agree with what you said. However, between Tim's intelligence (I know Damian is very smart as well but he doesn't rely on his brains as much in combat) and Steph's off-the-cuff thinking and resourcefulness (Which I think is only possibly matched by Dick and Cass), the two could each hold their own with Damian. Frankly, I'd say Tim and Steph as Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin and Batgirl are flat-out superior to Damian in skill, because while the Nu52 buffed Damian, Tim got nerfed, and Steph still lacks feats.


Me personally, I feel current Damian could beat both Tim and Steph at the same time (high difficulty). Tim alone has zero credible victories, and has lost every battle he has been in against anyone note worthy. Heck, even a no name like Manchester Black owned Tim in TT. Steph has zero feats that put her on par, let alone near Damian in pure skill. Sure Tim is smart (so is Damian), and Steph may be unpredictable, but I think the large gap in battle skill gives Damian the majority.

If this were Pre-52 Steph and Tim it would be a different story.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Does everyone really forget what happened? Tim said that he isn't going to fight with Damian. He didn't even try to do anything. He just stood there and wanted to talk with him. It wasn't a fight, and the writing was pathetic.


Tim showed not only the inability to dodge, but also got knocked out with a single punch. His skill and durability really got put into question at this point.

----------


## shadowsgirl

But why we discuss New52 Tim, when Tim was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.

----------


## KrustyKid

> How do you guys rate fighting abilities anyway? Is is all based on '*showings*'? If thats the case then Batman could on any scale be the best of worst fighter ever considering how many times he absolutely annihilates his enemies (when the writing call for it) or is thrashed and completely rendered helpless (when the writing calls for it). See where I'm going with this.
> 
> I mean, its all based on whatever the plot needs to happen, not really 'who is the better fighter'. I love Steph but Tom King could have Steph beat Batman to a pulp in the next issue of TEC and I wouldnt consider that to add to her rep or consider her more capable because of it, I'd cry fowl play cause based on what I know of the two characters that does not fit nor make sense of both her training and the length of time she has dedicated to said training.
> 
> 
> Me personally I look at their *skillset, training, along with various real world aspects such as size, age and weight* to also judge HOW their *style* may evolve. DC writers dont think that far ahead though, they just write the winner of a story because thats what the plot needed. Just like that Robin War thing between Damian and Tim which was the result of lazy writing, not based on capability, (writers dont care) but based on, like I said before, deceitful marketing.


I bolded all the points that go into how I would rank ones fighting ability. Along with that would be character statements. Let's take Harper for example. In Batman Eternal when getting trained by Tim at one point, she came out and said something to the affect of "I already know all the computer stuff. When do I get to train with Batman and learn all the fighting styles." That there would imply Tim isn't much of a fighter, and simply just the computer guy. That coupled in with his low showings is why one can argue he is at the bottom of the barrel in the Bat Family when it comes to fighting skill.

----------


## Assam

> But why we discuss New52 Tim, when he was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.


Nah, the Tim we know and love was last seen alive and well during Convergence getting back together with Steph, and Cass getting frustrated at them acting like a couple. (We all know she was just jealous.  :Stick Out Tongue: ) 

And yes, it's my headcanon that the DCU that had 10 years stolen from it was an exact copy of the GoodDCU, and the characters we know and love are still where we left them, their histories fully intact.

----------


## KrustyKid

> But why we discuss New52 Tim, when Tim was a victim of the reboot? The real Tim died in 2011! It doesn't matter what happened since then, because it wasn't the real Tim. It was a fake, an evil doppelganger, call him as you want, because the REAL Timothy Jackson Drake Wayne doesn't appeared since his Red Robin series ended.


I was making a point. Everyone keeps saying how perfect New-52 Tim is at everything. I was merrily pointing out how untrue that is. He's really only good with tech, and even then his systems still get hacked every other issue.

----------


## Frontier

I think - if we're talking fighting skills in general - Damian has more efficient training and skills compared to Tim and Steph and has more extensive training, but both would probably be able to outsmart or use his own strength against him in a fight. Particularly his aggression. 

And yes, I'm also talking about pre-Flashpoint Tim and Steph  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think - if we're talking fighting skills in general - Damian has more efficient training and skills compared to Tim and Steph and has more extensive training, but both would probably be able to outsmart or use his own strength against him in a fight. Particularly his aggression. 
> 
> And yes, I'm also talking about pre-Flashpoint Tim and Steph


I feel Pre-52 Tim outright beats Damian.

Current Tim<<<Current Damian. I don't see Tim using Damian's aggression to his advantage, for the simple fact Damian will get in his head and throw him(Tim) off of his game as he has already proven he can do. That's another thing about New-52 Tim, he is far less level headed than the former. I don't see Rebirth Tim beating Damian in any form or fashion, unless it is a hacking match. Then we would have ourselves a show, lol

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I was making a point. Everyone keeps saying how perfect New-52 Tim is at everything. I was merrily pointing out how untrue that is. He's really only good with tech, and even then his systems still get hacked every other issue.


But then don't compare him with Damian, because it's isn't fair. Damian didn't lose anything, he is the exact same character who he was. Tim lost his entire life! His personality, his origin, the years he spent as Robin were all gone. Originally, he was Robin for 5 years in the comics, from 13 to 18. You said that he lost all his training and skills, so according to you, he is an untrained fake. This is a totally different character. Tim was a better fighter than Damian, then reboot happened and hey look, this pathetic doppelgenger is suddenly worse in every area.

----------


## KrustyKid

> But then don't compare him with Damian, because it's isn't fair. Damian didn't lose anything, he is the exact same character who he was. Tim lost his entire life! His personality, his origin, the years he spent as Robin were all gone. Originally, he was Robin for 5 years in the comics, from 13 to 18. You said that he lost all his training and skills, so according to you, he is an untrained fake. This is a totally different character. Tim was a better fighter than Damian, then reboot happened and hey look, this pathetic doppelgenger is suddenly worse in every area.


Then why does everyone keep saying current Tim is perfect at everything? That's the point I'm making, he's not. In fact he's actually quite bad in some areas. Outside of combat skill, I'd say his leadership skills and tactical mindset as a planner were hit the hardest. I'm merrily pointing out Tim has notable flaws

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Then why does everyone keep saying current Tim is perfect at everything? That's the point I'm making, he's not. In fact he's actually quite bad in some areas. Outside of combat skill, I'd say his leadership skills and tactical mindset as a planner were hit the hardest.


Because they made him perfect in theory, but then they failed to show anything of it. He is an Olympic level athlet super genius, who spent just a few months with Batman, because he was so good that he didn't need more training. That's his New52 story, but it's so fake and discredited, like his New52 personality. The truth is, he is one of the worst character I have ever seen. This thing maybe calls himself Tim Drake, but he is not him.

----------


## Atlanta96

Tim being unable to beat Damian in a fight is humiliating and annoying. Mainly because it makes Damian OP, a character that bratty and arrogant only works if their skills are reigned in. Giving him the ability to kick the ass of anyone he dislikes kind of ruins him.

On top of that, Tim is a better strategist by far and his greater physical strength gives him an advantage as well. Any fight ending with Damian beating Tim is a massive insult.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim being unable to beat Damian in a fight is humiliating and annoying. Mainly because it makes Damian OP, a character that bratty and arrogant only works if their skills are reigned in. Giving him the ability to kick the ass of anyone he dislikes kind of ruins him.
> 
> On top of that, Tim is a better strategist by far and his greater physical strength gives him an advantage as well. Any fight ending with Damian beating Tim is a massive insult.


Exactly! Tim faced with world threatening enemies and other nasty surprises throughout his entire career as Robin than Red Robin, while Damian didn't have to much experience in superheroing. In the New52, Damian's suddenly better then everyone, and it's so unreal.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Exactly! Tim faced with world threatening enemies and other nasty surprises throughout his entire career as Robin than Red Robin, while Damian didn't have to much experience in superheroing. In the New52, Damian's suddenly better then everyone, and it's so unreal.


It's funny how Tim gets unfairly labeled as a Mary Sue type self insert even though Damian fits that description more. Tim spent his entire superhero career constantly struggling and being outperformed, but Damian not only has ludicrous fighting skills for his age, he gets to act like a little sh*t and get away with it most of the time. The arguments used to put down Tim are so weak and hypocritical.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It's funny how Tim gets unfairly labeled as a Mary Sue type self insert even though Damian fits that description more. Tim spent his entire superhero career constantly struggling and being outperformed, but Damian not only has ludicrous fighting skills for his age, he gets to act like a little sh*t and get away with it most of the time. The arguments used to put down Tim are so weak and hypocritical.


Yeah, this called double-standard.  :Big Grin:  I agree with you entirely.

----------


## Assam

Neither of them is a Mary Sue. Damian would be if it wasn't for the depth Morrison ended up giving him over the years, but yeah, that's what happened. Mary Sue is a _really_ overused term, and I'm guilty of having used it inappropriately myself.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Neither of them is a Mary Sue. Damian would be if it wasn't for the depth Morrison ended up giving him over the years, but yeah, that's what happened. Mary Sue is a _really_ overused term, and I'm guilty of having used it inappropriately myself.


Morrisons Damian is fine, most other writers do write him as overpowered.

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## Assam

> Morrisons Damian is fine, most other writers do write him as overpowered.


I've actually met people who believe that Morrison's Damian is the only one that matters, and any story with Damian following his death is garbage. Me personally I go back and forth on whether Damian coming back was a good thing, but I can definitely say I don't like how powerful he got.

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## RedBird

> Morrisons Damian is fine, most other writers do write him as overpowered.


Yeah I don't understand why writers make him strangely OP. Perhaps theres humor in making a 10 year old able to 'kick ass' so to speak, but characters who talk big are endearing because of their will to fight, not because they talk about defeating an army single handed and ACTUALLY do it. Thats one aspect of Morrisons writing that he nailed which was making Damian capable, highly skilled and efficient but to a scale where I could actually suspend my disbelief, he still seemed vulnerable. As he is should, as any Bat character should.

I mean, whats the benefit or fun in making a character OP anyway? What now? He is like 6 years old (technically) and already capable? Really? Damian is so young, theres so many stories you can tell, so much he can develop, unless he is gonna reach Godlike levels by 20 this is just weirdly capping him.

People are upset Damian isn't alongside Batman anymore. But why would he be? What would Batman have to teach a kid that is so wildly OP? 
I love Damian, but writers need to reel it back a little, let me watch him grow.



Now that I think about it, maybe thats kinda the problem with new52/rebirth Tim as well. All this talk of how skilled he is from the get go. Did he begin his Robin career as a mildly athletic student with an interest in investigative work. NO he is already a GENIUS hacker at age 14 or whatever and not only athletic but ALREADY AT AN OLYMPIC LEVEL!

Sigh. I mean at least thats more believable than Damian having a PHD, like what? But I'd still rather see them earn that status.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Because they made him perfect in theory, but then they failed to show anything of it. He is an Olympic level athlet super genius, who spent just a few months with Batman, because he was so good that he didn't need more training. That's his New52 story, but it's so fake and discredited, like his New52 personality. The truth is, *he is one of the worst character I have ever seen*. This thing maybe calls himself Tim Drake, but he is not him.


That's a bit much don't you think? Rebirth Tim isn't that bad, lol. He ails in comparison to the orginal Tim. But I still feel he can be salvaged.

'In theory' he was perfect. But I have clearly shown that he isn't perfect. If we are to be honest Pre-52 Tim was far more formidable.

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## KrustyKid

> Neither of them is a Mary Sue. Damian would be if it wasn't for the depth Morrison ended up giving him over the years, but yeah, that's what happened. Mary Sue is a _really_ overused term, and I'm guilty of having used it inappropriately myself.


I agree completely. Tim nor Damian are a Mary Sue. Both have their struggles and things they can strive to get better at.

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## CPSparkles

> Tim being unable to beat Damian in a fight is humiliating and annoying. Mainly because it makes Damian OP, a character that bratty and arrogant only works if their skills are reigned in. Giving him the ability to kick the ass of anyone he dislikes kind of ruins him.
> 
> On top of that, Tim is a better strategist by far and his greater physical strength gives him an advantage as well. Any fight ending with Damian beating Tim is a massive insult.


The only fight Tim lost that was insulting was the War of the Robin fight because that was Damian taking a mental victory over Tim. He shouldn't be able to get into Tim's head and manipulate him so easily.

Current Tim I don't even know how much training he has without them fixing his past he doesn't have as much training or experience as Damian and according to his TT record they both suck at leadership except that Damian has been shown to be a far better tactician.

This is why it is very important that his history be restored. Most of the arguments here are based on a history that is no longer in continuity you guys are talking about a character that is dead.

Rebirth and nu52 Tim isn't a skilled fighter and isn't a great tactician . In Rebirth he got lots of buttons but that's about it. He's still not a fighter or a tactician.

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## CPSparkles

> Yeah I don't understand why writers make him strangely OP. Perhaps theres humor in making a 10 year old able to 'kick ass' so to speak, but characters who talk big are endearing because of their will to fight, not because they talk about defeating an army single handed and ACTUALLY do it. Thats one aspect of Morrisons writing that he nailed which was making Damian capable, highly skilled and efficient but to a scale where I could actually suspend my disbelief, he still seemed vulnerable. As he is should, as any Bat character should.
> 
> I mean, whats the benefit or fun in making a character OP anyway? What now? He is like 6 years old (technically) and already capable? Really? Damian is so young, theres so many stories you can tell, so much he can develop, unless he is gonna reach Godlike levels by 20 this is just weirdly capping him.
> 
> People are upset Damian isn't alongside Batman anymore. But why would he be? What would Batman have to teach a kid that is so wildly OP? 
> I love Damian, but writers need to reel it back a little, let me watch him grow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damian isn't OP at all. I don't think you read that much Damian. He doesn't  have that much feats. Was Dick Grayson OP when he was the same age doing the same. Robins have always been young kids who beat grown men up lets not change the beat  due to bias now.

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## RedBird

> He doesn't  have that much feats. Was Dick Grayson OP when he was the same age doing the same. Robins have always been young kids who beat grown men up lets not change the beat  due to bias now.


Bias? What Bias? Dont make accusations just because I'm being critical.

Damian has been buffed during the new52 (theoretically I think because he is being given a push, and with a push comes more people writing him and with more writing comes necessary wins to suit the plot, thats just writing in general but thats also kinda boring). and of course the Robins beat grown men, thats always been the case, I never argued otherwise. In fact that just serves the argument of how the hell was Damian able to punch Tim once and knock him out? One punch really? Against someone who is also a young kid that fights 'grown men'. And ugh don't even get me started on the animated universe.

I think Tomasi (along with Morrison) does a great job of presenting Damian as capable and skilled but still in some ways vulnerable both physically and emotionally, (supersons, BAR and DSOB are great examples of that) but some other writers dont do such a great job, its half the reason I dropped Teen Titans.






> Damian isn't OP at all. *I don't think you read that much Damian.*


Again, don't make accusations you know nothing about.

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## Aahz

> Damian isn't OP at all. I don't think you read that much Damian. He doesn't  have that much feats. Was Dick Grayson OP when he was the same age doing the same. Robins have always been young kids who beat grown men up lets not change the beat  due to bias now.


That really depnds on what kind of grown men they take down, if it are just the typical Gotham street criminals and some cheesy silvergae villains or if it are older Batfamily members and other highly trained figthers.

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## CPSparkles

> Bias? What Bias? Dont make accusations just because I'm being critical.
> 
> Damian has been buffed during the new52 (theoretically I think because he is being given a push, and with a push comes more people writing him and with more writing comes necessary wins to suit the plot, thats just writing in general but thats also kinda boring). and of course the Robins beat grown men, thats always been the case, I never argued otherwise. In fact that just serves the argument of how the hell was Damian able to punch Tim once and knock him out? One punch really? Against someone who is also a young kid that fights 'grown men'. And ugh don't even get me started on the animated universe.
> 
> I think Tomasi (along with Morrison) does a great job of presenting Damian as capable and skilled but still in some ways vulnerable both physically and emotionally, (supersons, BAR and DSOB are great examples of that) but some other writers dont do such a great job, its half the reason I dropped Teen Titans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right so could I have example's of these feats that make the character over powered aside from the fact that he one punched nu 52 Tim Drake who we all know had barely any experience or skills [remember this guy spent less than a year under Bruce] .

The animated universe has zilch to do with this and the fact that you bring it up shows your bias. The animated universe doesn't even have the correct number of robins that shows how relevant it is.

TT Damian is capable not over powered so again not an example

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## RedBird

> Right so could I have example's of these feats that make the character over powered aside from the fact that he one punched nu 52 Tim Drake who we all know had barely any experience or skills [remember this guy spent less than a year under Bruce] .


Reduced experience doesn't mean Tim had to go down with one punch. Since like you yourself said, these boys fight 'grown men' all the time.

Add Jason to that list of characters jobbed in Robin War

Didn't Damian start the Teen Titans Rebirth by managing to kidnap ALL of the teammates, including ones with years of experience over him?

Thats 4 members, all of them are META mind you.

Did he not manage to stop Wallys heart in Teen Titans Lazarus Contract?

Did he not fight and contend with Deathstroke? Another man with years of experience over him. Including elements of age weight and height over him? I'm sorry Damian, I love you, but Deathstroke should wipe the floor with you, its no contest. He is a formidable opponent even for Batman.

Didn't he take out The Hood in Grayson 12 all by himself and strung him up? Again, another skilled individual with age weight and height over him?

Didnt he and (I can't believe this) _move his liver internally_ in Nightwing 20? That I think by far was the dumbest thing I had read in a long time.



Thats off the top of my head, but this isnt even counting the ridiculous animated universe. That sword through wrist scene cracks me up every time its so overblown.


But like I said, its all based on writing, and if the plot requires Damian to win he will win, even if it means doing LITERALLY impossible things. (I'm still not over the liver thing, that kinda poor lazy writing flabbergasted me.) luckily half his appearances, thanks to Tomasi are great, stuff by other writers, not so much.

EDIT: I think other writers are too focused on making him appear "cool", whilst Tomasi has gone out of his way to Humanize Damian and make him relatable despite being a highly skilled child assassin, at least most the time.

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## RedBird

> Right so could I have example's of these feats that make the character over powered aside from the fact that he one punched nu 52 Tim Drake who we all know had barely any experience or skills [remember this guy spent less than a year under Bruce] .
> 
> The animated universe has zilch to do with this and the fact that you bring it up shows your bias. The animated universe doesn't even have the correct number of robins that shows how relevant it is.


LOL How is that Bias? Also Bias against what? Its an example of a character being represented as too OP. Thats the conversation thats happening right now. I'm fine with excluding it, but you suddenly claiming a form of media has nothing to do with a conversation about a character who heavily features in said media isnt me being Bias. Thats just you suddenly adding a rule. But sure, whatever floats your boat.  :Smile: 





> TT Damian is capable not over powered so again not an example


Oh gee thanks for that extensive example, ya sure convinced me now. Any arguments about the example I provided that YOU asked for? or are you just gonna keep making accusations with no grounds?



EDIT: We can agree to disagree on this you know? And I ask that you please not accuse me of being Bias again against one of my favourite characters. Just because our opinions about his presentation in comics don't align doesn't make me 'bias' for goodness sake.

----------


## RedBird

Back to Tim though, does anyone think he is going to give up the Red Robin Mantle? Someone else mentioned that the September TEC cover echoes the same cover with Dick giving up Robin. Does DC have plans to reinvent Tims actual costume and name? Or maybe he is giving it up all together?  :Confused: 

I can't say ever liked that Rebirth RR costume admittedly.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Back to Tim though, does anyone think he is going to give up the Red Robin Mantle? Someone else mentioned that the September TEC cover echoes the same cover with Dick giving up Robin. Does DC have plans to reinvent Tims actual costume and name? Or maybe he is giving it up all together? 
> 
> I can't say ever liked that Rebirth RR costume admittedly.


I don't mind the name so much, it's a little unoriginal but I can live with it. I'm with you on the Rebirth costume though. It makes no sense. I also hated Bruce's comment "You were always a Robin to me" (paraphrasing). Tim made a conscious decision to not take the Robin name to honour Jason and Batman should respect that. So Red Robin dressing in a suit more suitable for a role he never held really irritates me.

----------


## RedBird

> I don't mind the name so much, it's a little unoriginal but I can live with it. I'm with you on the Rebirth costume though. It makes no sense. I also hated Bruce's comment "You were always a Robin to me" (paraphrasing). Tim made a conscious decision to not take the Robin name to honour Jason and Batman should respect that. So Red Robin dressing in a suit more suitable for a role he never held really irritates me.


Yeah thats kind of a place where the new52 and rebirth aren't meeting each other in the middle, even though Tynion is trying to force it in order to reestablish a connection between Bruce and Tim. But you're right, if the whole purpose of Tim using RR was to honor Jason as Robin then Bruces comment comes off as strangely out of place, almost disrespectful.

What if hypothetically speaking, IF Rebirth restores Tims years of being Robin, that comment was meant to foreshadow a restoration by implying that the 'feelings' were always there?

Is that kind of writing a little too clever for Tynion?....

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Yeah thats kind of a place where the new52 and rebirth aren't meeting each other in the middle, even though Tynion is trying to force it in order to reestablish a connection between Bruce and Tim. But you're right, if the whole purpose of Tim using RR was to honor Jason as Robin then Bruces comment comes off as strangely out of place, almost disrespectful.
> 
> What if hypothetically speaking, IF Rebirth restores Tims years of being Robin, that comment was meant to foreshadow a restoration by implying that the 'feelings' were always there?
> 
> Is that kind of writing a little too clever for Tynion?....


If it implicitly states that at some point he was Robin, in the current continuity, I'd be ok with it but I don't think that can happen. The timeline would be too confusing. Plus the two Tim's personalities are too different and their personal lives are drastically different too. ie: old Tim was humble and hardworking and NuTim builds self healing buildings and an intelligent robot army effortlessly. Old Tim's parents are dead, NuTim ruined (his loving, supportive) parents lives and keeps them in a high tech prison- sorry house and shows no remorse. I don't think these two characters can merge together convincingly.

----------


## RedBird

> If it implicitly states that at some point he was Robin, in the current continuity, I'd be ok with it but I don't think that can happen. The timeline would be too confusing. Plus the two Tim's personalities are too different and their personal lives are drastically different too. ie: old Tim was humble and hardworking and NuTim builds self healing buildings and an intelligent robot army effortlessly. Old Tim's parents are dead, NuTim ruined (his loving, supportive) parents lives and keeps them in a high tech prison- sorry house and shows no remorse. I don't think these two characters can merge together convincingly.


Yeah....Now that you put it that way.

I guess we are either gonna be stuck with NuTim with maybe one or two elements of his backstory changed and hope that any future writing doesn't continue on where new52 left off.

OR go new52 Superman on him and have NuTim die so that old Tim can come back. 

I'm betting on the former though.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Yeah....Now that you put it that way.
> 
> I guess we are either gonna be stuck with NuTim with maybe one or two elements of his backstory changed and hope that any future writing doesn't continue on where new52 left off.
> 
> OR go new52 Superman on him and have NuTim die so that old Tim can come back. 
> 
> I'm betting on the former though.


I'm hoping for the latter. You'd have Tim's nice old personality and a nice fish out of water scenario to launch his solo. Where does he fit in this new family? Imagine how incredulous he'd be to see that "he" was living with Stephanie at 17. He could worry that he's inadequate to the super genius who went before. But I'd really like to see him establish a proper bond with Bruce, Dick, Cass and Alfred.

Edit: Damian leading the TTs!

----------


## RedBird

> I'm hoping for the latter. You'd have Tim's nice old personality and a nice fish out of water scenario to launch his solo. Where does he fit in this new family? Imagine how incredulous he'd be to see that "he" was living with Stephanie at 17. He could worry that he's inadequate to the super genius who went before. But I'd really like to see him establish a proper bond with Bruce, Dick, Cass and Alfred.


Oh I'm sure everyone (plus myself) is hoping for the latter  :Big Grin: 

But wow, that fish out of water stuff sounds like a really great idea! A way to reestablish his place and connections whilst making it feel new, fresh and interesting and not like we are treading old ground. You're right, that would be a great idea for a solo it even leaves him in a place to feel humbled even if he wasn't replacing a genius character.




> Edit: Damian leading the TTs!


LOL yeah. Unfortunately Old Tim hasnt seen all the development Damian has gotten through new52 and how far he has come. thats gonna make for hilarious reactions.

Also I MIGHT ADD

Tim: "What do you mean I'm friends with Jason Todd?!"

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That's a bit much don't you think? Rebirth Tim isn't that bad, lol. He ails in comparison to the orginal Tim. But I still feel he can be salvaged.
> 
> 'In theory' he was perfect. But I have clearly shown that he isn't perfect. If we are to be honest Pre-52 Tim was far more formidable.


No, it isn't a bit much, because that thing is standing between me and my beloved Tim. I'm a fan, who wants to see her favourite, but while this version is here, he can't come back. It would be the best, if Tynion actually killed NewTim. In the final page, the real Tim would just show up in his cowled Red Robin costume and start to investigate his fake version's death. Where did he come from and how is that possible that nobody knows about his existence? That could be an interesting story with a lot of potential. How did he survive the reboot, or how did he come back? You have mystery and drama over there, because he remembers everything, but nobody remebers him and his true life. For everybody else, the fake version is the real Tim Drake. The old Tim would remember his parents’ death and every person who he lost, and after he sees his New52 parents are alive, he collapse a little bit.  He would know that they aren't his real parents, because their entire lives and personalities are totally different, but still, they are breathing and alive.  With that move, we could have Tim back, but no, we stuck with the new version, who is just New52 Tim with a little more tolerable personality. Until everybody gains back all their memories, I will call them fakes. If they don't gain them back, I'm not so sure I want to read about them anymore. The Dc Universe was so rich and familiar, full with legacy characters, relationships and common histories. There were some reboots in the past too, but never this devastating. In the Pre-Flashpoint Universe, Beast boy and the Doom Patrol found each other again, because they started to remember their original connections. I hope this will be the case again, because poor Garfield is now serving under the 3rd Robin. He was the leader of the Doom Patrol for a while and he wanted to challenge Wonder Girl for the Teen Titans leadership, but look at him now. It's not just Tim, who lost almost everything, there are others as well. I posted a picture just a couple of pages ago, where Garfield calls Tim kid at the first time they meet and he fears he will be the next Danny Chase. In the New52, Garfield didn't do anything, his only purpose was licking New52 Tim's boots and thinking he was some kind of redeemer. He needs some spine again, because he is just as ridiculous as NewTim.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Oh, I almost forgot these. Geesh Garfield, Tim's boots aren't clear already?

----------


## godisawesome

> Oh I'm sure everyone (plus myself) is hoping for the latter 
> 
> But wow, that fish out of water stuff sounds like a really great idea! A way to reestablish his place and connections whilst making it feel new, fresh and interesting and not like we are treading old ground. You're right, that would be a great idea for a solo it even leaves him in a place to feel humbled even if he wasn't replacing a genius character.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL yeah. Unfortunately Old Tim hasnt seen all the development Damian has gotten through new52 and how far he has come. thats gonna make for hilarious reactions.
> 
> Also I MIGHT ADD
> ...


Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?

What I'd include:
+ an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
+ an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
+ Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
+ Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
+ cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
+ Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
+ Tim and Steph, though possibly in multiple costumes to show the redundant nature of time travel

What I wouldn't include:
+ Tim's parents dead; it's not necessary, and maybe the only generally liked change.
+ Anything to do with NOWHERE
+ Any scene involving a romance with Cassie

----------


## millernumber1

> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> ...


All of these are excellent.

----------


## RedBird

> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> ...


Those are all, pretty great examples, I agree with all those you would include.
There is one I can't decide on though, which is the death of Kon (or the aftermath of it), I feel like that made a pretty big impact in Tims life but maybe that would feel too confusing on page??

----------


## Cmbmool

Damian lacks the social skills of Tim and Dick, so maybe someone should teach him about respect and manners.

----------


## RedBird

> Damian lacks the social skills of Tim and Dick, so maybe someone should teach him about respect and manners.


I think attempts are being made with Supersons and Teen Titans to allow Damian to socialize more. Though I think Supersons is more of a humbling experience for Damian than Teen Titans.

----------


## Aahz

> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> + Tim and Steph, though possibly in multiple costumes to show the redundant nature of time travel
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I would include Shiva, since she is allready connected to lots of other Batfamily characters (especally Cass), but I would probaly include Lynx, Lonnie and the General in some way.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> ...


Great memories!
I'd like to add something with Huntress too!
An image with Alfred at Brentwood Academy
Ariana, Ives and the old days at school
KGBeast, Anarky, Killer Croc, King Snake, Lynx and the ghost dragons
Tim impersonating Alvin Draper
Another great friend of Tim: Connor Hawke (Green Arrow)
His bromance with Superboy needs an higlight

How much i loved this character! I miss him

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I'm not sure if I would include Shiva, since she is allready connected to lots of other Batfamily characters (especally Cass), but I would probaly include Lynx, Lonnie and the General in some way.


She is essential in Tim's life, she can't be missed!

----------


## FlyingHero

Red Robin has to go. Call him Flamebird or some other old superhero name. Tired of seeing that restaurant pop up when I google him lol.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Red Robin has to go. Call him Flamebird or some other old superhero name. Tired of seeing that restaurant pop up when I google him lol.


Haha, at least he has his "own" theme song.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Atlanta96

> Red Robin has to go. Call him Flamebird or some other old superhero name. Tired of seeing that restaurant pop up when I google him lol.


Yeah, that name is a disease. I'm a little embarrassed to tell my friends that one of my favorite superheroes is named Red Robin, when a name is so bad you don't even want to say it out loud then it's definitely got to go.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Not sure exactly what I'd include in a Tim history splash page, but I do have some ideas for more things he'd be confused by if the real Tim came back:

- Uh, guys, when did Babs start walking again? 

- When did we get so many new additions to the Fa...IS THAT CLAYFACE? 

- Cass, didn't you used to be older than me? And taller? Wait, what do you mean you and Steph were never Batgirl?! 

- How did Damian age three years but no one else did? Also we don't hate each other anymore...what? 

- (To Bar-Torr,NuKon, and NuCassie): Alright, drop the act you obvious super villains in disguise, where are my _actual_ friends? 

- Hold on, was _I_ basically a super villain is disguise? Who else would do what I did to my parents? OHMYGODMYPARENTSAREALIVE! 

- Well everyone, its great for me to be...hold on a second. I'm remembering...me and Steph...living together in an apartment. We...we had...it actually happened. THE INTERNET CAN MOCK ME NO MORE!

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> *+ Tim and Cass Cain fighting goons and/or bonding over Steph's death*
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting* MIGHTY ENDOWED*, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> ...


Also, want Tim to remember his parents dying, even if it isnt' reflected in the current reality. A lot of Tim's character is wrapped up in the spideyesque "argh how do I balance my home life with my superheroics!" and having that extra weight of knowing he's been given a second chance but still not being able to take full advantage of it would be great.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Back to Tim though, does anyone think he is going to give up the Red Robin Mantle? Someone else mentioned that the September TEC cover echoes the same cover with Dick giving up Robin. Does DC have plans to reinvent Tims actual costume and name? Or maybe he is giving it up all together? 
> 
> I can't say ever liked that Rebirth RR costume admittedly.


I do believe Tim will get a name change along with a new mission.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'm not sure I want a name change. RR has been around long enough that its starting to stick. 

If we are getting a new name I want a great story reasoning for it, and I'm not optimistic that we can get that.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm not sure I want a name change. RR has been around long enough that its starting to stick. 
> 
> If we are getting a new name I want a great story reasoning for it, and I'm not optimistic that we can get that.


It's not starting to stick, in fact it's become associated more with Tim's worst moments (New 52 TT, Rebirth Tim) than anything else. It's got to go.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yeah, he needs a new name, but you never know, maybe it would be much worse. I look at you Orphan. I hate that name, so lame. Cass deserves so much better.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm not sure I want a name change. RR has been around long enough that its starting to stick. 
> 
> If we are getting a new name I want a great story reasoning for it, and I'm not optimistic that we can get that.


I don't mind the Red Robin name personally. But if Tim is to continue to use that name it would be nice if they wouldn't have him acting as Robin 2.0. He would need a distinctive look(Pre-52 was a solid direction) and a mission/direction not similar to one that would be associated with Robin.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It's not starting to stick, in fact it's become associated more with Tim's worst moments (New 52 TT, Rebirth Tim) than anything else. It's got to go.


I just really don't think that whatever new name comes around will be better, or that it will feel earned from a storytelling perspective. 

See: Orphan 

Red Robin at least has the tie to Earth 2 Dick as the "adult robin"

----------


## KrustyKid

> I just really don't think that whatever new name comes around will be better, or that it will feel earned from a storytelling perspective. 
> 
> See: Orphan 
> 
> Red Robin at least has the tie to Earth 2 Dick as the "adult robin"


Yes. Any new name that Tim could get should either;

A. Tie to something in his history

B. A name directly linked to whatever his given mission will be

If neither can be accomplished, I'd stay with RR

----------


## scary harpy

> I just really don't think that whatever new name comes around will be better, or that it will feel earned from a storytelling perspective. 
> 
> See: Orphan


At least, it's uniquely hers.




> Red Robin at least has the tie to Earth 2 Dick as the "adult robin"


And no ties to Tim at all. 




> Yes. Any new name that Tim could get should either;
> 
> A. Tie to something in his history
> 
> B. A name directly linked to whatever his given mission will be
> 
> If neither can be accomplished, I'd stay with RR


I dislike the Red Robin name...more so because he wear's so little red!

I do not mind him being a gymnast or having a winged costume...but not the name Red Robin. I didn't much like it when Grayson used the  name in _Kingdom Come_.

I agree they will have to come up with a great name...and I don't trust them to be able to do that.

----------


## scary harpy

> Red Robin has to go. Call him Flamebird or some other old superhero name. Tired of seeing that restaurant pop up when I google him lol.


Flamebird is available. Why not?

At least, it's not Red Robin.

----------


## Assam

I don't particularly like the idea of Tim taking Bette's old codename while she isn't even around, but one upside is that they could work the Nightwing and Flamebird angle to restore Dick and Tim's relationship.

----------


## godisawesome

Preybird? Harrier? Ebonwing? Red Talon? Operator?




> Also, want Tim to remember his parents dying, even if it isnt' reflected in the current reality. A lot of Tim's character is wrapped up in the spideyesque "argh how do I balance my home life with my superheroics!" and having that extra weight of knowing he's been given a second chance but still not being able to take full advantage of it would be great.


Tim having past memories that don't apply anymore could really play a part in both playing him closer to his original personality and simultaneously his personality during his Red Robin solo. He can be grateful, humble, and a bit mellow when he feels his family and friends are safe, and then get extremely paranoid and taciturn when they're threatened. He'd know what it's like to lose those close to you, and I could see some good drama coming from his desperation not to repeat that.

And if they had the cajones to make his return to comics maintain a Grayson level of concealment from his family to stay out of Oz's reach, it'd be an interesting reversal of the Red Robin solo, particularly if Steph figured it out.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Reduced experience doesn't mean Tim had to go down with one punch. Since like you yourself said, these boys fight 'grown men' all the time.
> 
> Add Jason to that list of characters jobbed in Robin War
> 
> Didn't Damian start the Teen Titans Rebirth by managing to kidnap ALL of the teammates, including ones with years of experience over him?
> 
> Thats 4 members, all of them are META mind you.
> 
> Did he not manage to stop Wallys heart in Teen Titans Lazarus Contract?
> ...


He managed to catch them unawares they promptly broke out and ended up saving him.
Stopping Wally's heart isn't OPed in the least
Damian has never been shown to be a match for Deathstroke which is why he had to pay him off in RSOB
He should be able to hold his own against the hood and Jason. Nothing in his record says he shouldn't.
Tim going down with one punch is nothing to do with Damian or his power levels. You see a punch coming you duck. Tim didn't. He just stood there. That's silly.

The liver thing is ridiculous however it's just the type of stuff I am willing to accept from characters with ridiculous and unorthodox training backgrounds like Damian and Cass. Lord knows what they teaching in the league.

Damian was already beyond Robin standard when he joined the family. The thing is that people often forget that.

I don't think it's a case of writers trying to make him cool more like writers adding a splash of Batman because he is the son of the Bat. Making him do Batman like stuff like getting one over on meta's thanks to prep and gadgets which is understandable so long as they don't go overboard.

----------


## CPSparkles

> LOL How is that Bias? Also Bias against what? Its an example of a character being represented as too OP. Thats the conversation thats happening right now. I'm fine with excluding it, but you suddenly claiming a form of media has nothing to do with a conversation about a character who heavily features in said media isnt me being Bias. Thats just you suddenly adding a rule. But sure, whatever floats your boat. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh gee thanks for that extensive example, ya sure convinced me now. Any arguments about the example I provided that YOU asked for? or are you just gonna keep making accusations with no grounds?
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: We can agree to disagree on this you know? And I ask that you please not accuse me of being Bias again against one of my favourite characters. Just because our opinions about his presentation in comics don't align doesn't make me 'bias' for goodness sake.


Fine you are not personally biased however there is a definte bias where stuff that has always been standard and accepted for Robins suddenly because reason for complaint with Damian. I've never seen anyone question how a kid is able to fight a grown man or bring up body weight till Damian came along.

Why would you bring in the animated universe? It has no bearing on the comic character so should not be brought up. It's a different universe with a different Damian, different Batfamily and a different Deathstroke. I wouldn't judge any of those characters based on those original characterisations. We are discussing nu52

----------


## RedBird

> He managed to catch them unawares they promptly broke out and ended up saving him.
> Stopping Wally's heart isn't OPed in the least
> Damian has never been shown to be a match for Deathstroke which is why he had to pay him off in RSOB
> He should be able to hold his own against the hood and Jason. Nothing in his record says he shouldn't.
> Tim going down with one punch is nothing to do with Damian or his power levels. You see a punch coming you duck. Tim didn't. He just stood there. That's silly.


I see your argument but the writing still is stretching his capabilities for the sake of the plot and that kind of stuff can just come of as trying too hard to impress in my opinion. 
He caught 4 meta teammates off guard. In a row. Thats an astounding feat, but its not treated that way in the writing, do you see what I'm saying? He manages to beat down adults/vigilantes with equal or years of training above himself, plus aspects such as age, weight and height over him. Does it seem to take a toll on him? No, this is apparently childs play for Damian Wayne. Within the the text these achievements are grand, but the writing gives off the impression that he is barely breaks a sweat over it. And thats just....boring. I mean, Batman is a great character, but that doesnt mean everyone is happy to see him as 'BatGod'. Seeing a character just roll with every punch can inspire audience eyerolls. 

For an example of this done well, look at the John Wick movie. He is built up to be the worlds greatest assassin theres no question to that, he is THE BEST, and whilst the movie does poke fun at itself in that regard it doesnt mean that John the character is able to pull off astounding feats without it taking a considerable toll on him physically, even a 'common guard' can give him a hard time. His struggle doesnt take away from his strength because he succeeds in the end, but that doesnt mean that there are no bumps in the road along the way. Jackie Chans films are also a great example of extraordinary feats woven with struggle and effort. Not EVERY writer does this with Damian, but I find that instances of this kind of 'batgod' accomplishments keep popping up and its in an attempt from writers to either be humorous or make him appear cool when its unnecessary.




> The liver thing is ridiculous however it's just the type of stuff I am willing to accept from characters with ridiculous and unorthodox training backgrounds like Damian and Cass. Lord knows what they teaching in the league.


See, even you yourself found that to be ridiculous. You may be able to suspend your disbelief, but sorry I just can't, especially with something that's LITERALLY impossible. See now kidnapping his teammates, beating other vigilante's I could accept (if like I said it didnt come across as so whatever) If done well, extraordinary feats (by any of the bats) I can accept, they are after all extraodinary characters, impossible feats though, no. Just no, thats just writers being lazy, that laziness almost spoiled Nightwing 20 for me (the hugging scene made up for it fortunately  :Smile: )




> Damian was already beyond Robin standard when he joined the family. The thing is that people often forget that.


I haven't forgotten that, hell thats the entire point of his character :P But then again Robin characters were always in the process of learning and advancing whatever training they received prior to being out on the field. Damian is very skilled, made to be a superior Robin. But thats just it, he is still Robin, he only has like 6 years of actual training (thanks to the new52 plotline) and thats IF we start counting from birth. And a lot of his training even with Dick or Bruce was UNLEARNING things that he was taught prior due to his more lethal methodologies, his capabilities shouldn't surpass others that have just as much or even more training than him. Or rather like I've explained, it should at least show as an accomplishment rather than just another Tuesday for lil D.





> I don't think it's a case of writers trying to make him cool more like writers adding a splash of Batman because he is the son of the Bat. Making him do Batman like stuff like getting one over on meta's thanks to prep and gadgets which is understandable so long as they don't go overboard.


But thats the thing, it does go a little overboard. Logic is thrown out the window for the sake of a title (son of the Bat). That shouldnt actually matter to Damians development, but like I said, writers must find it cute to present Damian as a mini Bat, and yeah it is, but I feel there are more well written ways to present that idea across, Morrison never made him 'feel' indestructible neither did Tomasi (most the time).

Its not ALL the writors, and its not ALL the time, I made that clear before, but its popping up more frequently and its boring to read. We already have the problem of 'BatGod' popping up from time to time, I don't want to dread 'Mini BatGod' as well. I'm just glad I have SuperSons to fall back on, nice development, fun friendship for Damian and great Batdad moments, D and J are super capable, but they are still KIDS and that fact doesnt escape or fall flat in the writing. Its been Great.

----------


## RedBird

> Fine you are not personally biased however there is a definte bias where stuff that has always been standard and accepted for Robins suddenly because reason for complaint with Damian.


I agree with you that people can be Bias against Damian thanks to unfavorable representations or how divisive as a character he had begun as, my problem is not with regular Robin behaviour such as beating common thugs, its mainly when he crosses paths with meta or vigilantes, or performs acts that are impossible, as I described in my recent post that I just don't like seeing "Mini BatGod".




> I've never seen anyone question how a kid is able to fight a grown man or bring up body weight till Damian came along.


Yeah well sorry to say, I'm not "anyone", I have my own opinion and I've always been critical to how these characters are represented, and its not so much the content as it is HOW its displayed, and I'm not fond of this kind of presentation for Bat characters, they are my favourite characters in all of DC but this kind of presentation can come off an either far fetched or worse insulting to other characters. Ever notice sometimes that when Batman enters a room suddenly everyone elses IQ drops by 50 points to ensure he is the smartest sounding person in the room? Its uplifting one character by pushing another down, its poor weak writing, and I'm not fond of that.




> Why would you bring in the animated universe? It has no bearing on the comic character so should not be brought up. It's a different universe with a different Damian, different Batfamily and a different Deathstroke. I wouldn't judge any of those characters based on those original characterisations. We are discussing nu52


I brought it up since its a representation of his character in a form of media that is currently being marketed by DC, and it seems to be considered quite favorable, his character seemed liked enough to me to not exclude it, (unlike other media like injustice 2 YIKES that ONE I wouldnt dare include). But if you dont want to discuss it, thats fine.

----------


## RedBird

OH I just realised since we are in the Tim thread, to further my point and frustrations with this kind of 'effortless' behavior in writing. (Along with 'BatGod', 'mini BatGod' and eg: Batman walking into a room, IQ dropping, you get the picture)

Look no further than this thread. 
Does Tim Drake struggle with the computing knowledge that he has? does it ever seem like a burden when he has to figure out complex coding? NOPE he just presses one of two buttons, doesnt break a sweat and through that _no show of effort_ is able to create 'self healing building???'......Dumb Writing. Dumb writing made to push him up through far fetched means.
Unlike with Damian though which is at least kind of on and off depending on the writer or comic issue, though was still an issue I thought needed mentioning due to rising frequency, this has been the case for Tim during the whole of new52, which is even worse.

----------


## KrustyKid

> He managed to catch them unawares they promptly broke out and ended up saving him.
> Stopping Wally's heart isn't OPed in the least
> *Damian has never been shown to be a match for Deathstroke which is why he had to pay him off in RSOB*
> He should be able to hold his own against the hood and Jason. Nothing in his record says he shouldn't.
> Tim going down with one punch is nothing to do with Damian or his power levels. You see a punch coming you duck. Tim didn't. He just stood there. That's silly.
> 
> The liver thing is ridiculous however it's just the type of stuff I am willing to accept from characters with ridiculous and unorthodox training backgrounds like Damian and Cass. Lord knows what they teaching in the league.
> 
> Damian was already beyond Robin standard when he joined the family. The thing is that people often forget that.
> ...


Prior to paying him off, Damian was keeping up actually quite well. Obviously if the fight went on Damian would have probably lost. That showing is something you'd expect from Cass or even Batman himself.

----------


## RedBird

> Prior to paying him off, Damian was keeping up actually quite well. Obviously if the fight went on Damian would have probably lost. That showing is something you'd expect from Cass or even Batman himself.


Pretty much, even keeping up with DeathStroke is a feat in and of itself, unless Slade is severely handicapped in some way for a physical confrontation, NONE of the bats should be able to face him easily. I agree that only possibly Batman or Cass would be able to 'keep up', at least for a while, and even then, I don't expect it to be *easy*, neither do I expect for them to come out as the victor.

----------


## godisawesome

I have to admit that when it comes to Damian vs Tim in terms of who's the more dangerous fighter, I often feel people undersell Tim a bit, and that Morrison and Nicieza did a great job of showing the actual breakdown; Damian probably has faster reflexes and may know more martial arts attack patterns, but Tim has a *huge* edge in experience/maturity and size. Their first conflict when Damian first appeared wasn't a real fight and both character suffered for it: Damian's childish frustration and aggressions let Tim walk him off a dinosaur without returning any blows, and then Damian sucker-punched Tim when he overexposed himself by underestimating Damian's petulance. A knock out punch from a ten year old is freakishly impressive, but it'd be hard to argue that Tim didn't showcase superior tactics in the first part of the confrontation.

When Nicieza teased a fight, Tim's size came into play as a pretty big factor, and he pretty much just threw Damian around, a tactic that doesn't show greater skill or reflexes but the exploitation of his biggest physical advantage. It's believable to the stent that Damian is still a freak of nature in fighting, but not a Demi-God at it. And even if you do think Damian should be so, he shouldn't be in the league of Cass, since her brain was literally retired as a child for fighting.

For the record, I thought  Damian should eventually grow to surpass Pre-Flashpoint Tim as a warrior, but not by a titanic amount, as Tim would have likewise developed even more. I just kind of figured all four boys would inevitably reach an apex for their individual styles wherein Tim and Jason would probably excell at integrating tactics and weapon use while Damian and Dick wouldn't need them.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> He managed to catch them unawares they promptly broke out and ended up saving him.
> Stopping Wally's heart isn't OPed in the least


I love Damian, I truly do but that punch was ridiculous. Damian is fast enough to punch a speedster, in the presence of another speedster and strong enough to permanently damage their heart despite their speed healing. Speedsters can recover from gunshot wounds but not Damians mega punch apparently. It was ridiculous writing and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Sorry for clogging up the Tim thread

----------


## RedBird

> I love Damian, I truly do but that punch was ridiculous. Damian is fast enough to punch a speedster, in the presence of another speedster and strong enough to permanently damage their heart despite their speed healing. Speedsters can recover from gunshot wounds but not Damians mega punch apparently. It was ridiculous writing and it makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> Sorry for clogging up the Tim thread


I didn't wanna pick apart each of these arguments, rather just add to the discussion of WHY I'm not fond of this representation of Damians character, (and in general all characters)
But yeah this ^^^^

Again this kind of ridiculous feat is the result of poor and nonsensical writing. I guess they just needed Damian to be the 'aggressive and dominant' leader for this arc. Most people including myself found his character to be WILDY ooc and regressive, its a shame that Damians character was USED in such a horrible way, all because the plot needed someone to be a prick in the group for the sake on _tension_.

----------


## RedBird

> I have to admit that when it comes to Damian vs Tim in terms of who's the more dangerous fighter, I often feel people undersell Tim a bit, and that Morrison and Nicieza did a great job of showing the actual breakdown; Damian probably has faster reflexes and may know more martial arts attack patterns, but Tim has a *huge* edge in experience/maturity and size. 
> 
> When Nicieza teased a fight, Tim's size came into play as a pretty big factor, and he pretty much just threw Damian around, a tactic that doesn't show greater skill or reflexes but the exploitation of his biggest physical advantage. It's believable to the stent that Damian is still a freak of nature in fighting, but not a Demi-God at it. And even if you do think Damian should be so, he shouldn't be in the league of Cass, since her brain was literally retired as a child for fighting.


Right? That was a pretty good fight, it displayed how they fought and what advantages they had. And as you said even when Tim gained an advantage it wasnt by a superior skill but rather exploiting his size, so Damians credibility as a fighter isn't questioned, it just means that in this particular area he is at a CLEAR disadvantage and will most likely be hurt because of it.

EDIT: (whoops forgot to address the first part. BACK TO TIM!)

Yeah I agree Tim is often looked down upon in terms of fighting and skill set, I don't rate him particularly high, but not low either, though I wonder if thats something that was around during post crisis, or has this idea of Tim being a poor fighter cropped up with the new52?

----------


## yohyoi

The outcome of Damian vs Tim depends on the writer. If Nicieza writes it, Tim wins. If Morrison or Snyder writes it, Damian wins. That is just how it goes.

----------


## godisawesome

> The outcome of Damian vs Tim depends on the writer. If Nicieza writes it, Tim wins. If Morrison or Snyder writes it, Damian wins. That is just how it goes.


To an extent, yes, but great writers know how to do so in such a way that respects both characters and shows their power dynamics. Neither Morrison nor Nicieza implied it would be an easy or appropriate fight between the two, and both gave the other fighter a chance. And even mediocre writers who use their brains can usually construct a scenario that shows that respect; Tony Daniel's still pretty much an amateur writer, but Battle for the Cowl featured Jason beating Tim on Jason's home turf after Tim managed to finally get a few hits in, and then had the Dick vs Jason fight end on what amounted to a physical wager of two high risk moves. It wasn't great writing, but it was intelligent "booking" if that makes sense.




> Right? That was a pretty good fight, it displayed how they fought and what advantages they had. And as you said even when Tim gained an advantage it wasnt by a superior skill but rather exploiting his size, so Damians credibility as a fighter isn't questioned, it just means that in this particular area he is at a CLEAR disadvantage and will most likely be hurt because of it.
> 
> EDIT: whoops forgot to address the first part. Yeah I agree Tim is often looked down upon in terms of fighting and skill set, I don't rate him particularly high, but not low either, though I wonder if thats something that was around during post crisis, or has this idea of Tim being a poor fighter cropped up with the new52?


"Poor fighter" probably isn't the best way to describe it. Post-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint, Tim was simply not a naturally gifted combatant physically, but a natural fighter mentally instead. He was incredibly calm and collected when under stress, highly observant, and a creative thinker, but not physically quick or strong, and we never really got to see whether or not he had a high degree of endurance like his brothers had. He tended to manipulate opponents into exposing a weakness, exploit an already apparent weakness, use the environment, and occasionally cheat like a dirty rotten scoundrel. Note: all his bothers could do the same, but didn't rely on or immediately utilize them as much as Tim did. For Tim, a good fight is generally over in a short span of time, and if it isn't, he's probably in trouble.

New 52 Tim rarely got to show what his actual skills were, in part because Lobdell simply didn't write fight scenes in a way to illustrate Tim's actual martial skills. He's apparently supposed to be roughly on par with Red Hood, but you don't even get the distinctions between their strengths like previous writers did (Jason traditionally had significant advantages in size and strength, while Tim might have been just barely better at tactics, but not by much.)

----------


## yohyoi

> I love Damian, I truly do but that punch was ridiculous. Damian is fast enough to punch a speedster, in the presence of another speedster and strong enough to permanently damage their heart despite their speed healing. Speedsters can recover from gunshot wounds but not Damians mega punch apparently. It was ridiculous writing and it makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> Sorry for clogging up the Tim thread


Damian is drinking some Batgod kool-aid. You don't question the Batgod. You simply accept it.

----------


## RedBird

> "Poor fighter" probably isn't the best way to describe it. Post-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint, Tim was simply not a naturally gifted combatant physically, but a natural fighter mentally instead. He was incredibly calm and collected when under stress, highly observant, and a creative thinker, but not physically quick or strong, and we never really got to see whether or not he had a high degree of endurance like his brothers had. He tended to manipulate opponents into exposing a weakness, exploit an already apparent weakness, use the environment, and occasionally cheat like a dirty rotten scoundrel. Note: all his bothers could do the same, but didn't rely on or immediately utilize them as much as Tim did. For Tim, a good fight is generally over in a short span of time, and if it isn't, he's probably in trouble.


I miss Tims ability to manipulate and fight dirty in a more psychological way, it was to me, one of the more interesting aspects to his fighting style. 
He defeated enemies with his mind, and now rebirth also has him defeating enemies with his mind, except its in a completely different manner that missed the point. 
Go figure.





> The outcome of Damian vs Tim depends on the writer. If Nicieza writes it, Tim wins. If Morrison or Snyder writes it, Damian wins. That is just how it goes.


Whoever wins......We lose....  :Cool: 

But seriously though, who wins doesn't matter, no matter which combination of characters, as long as its written well. 
Of course, that goes for the entire comic, not just for 'fight scenes'. :P


Question, does anyone else enjoy 'fight scenes' between characters? I mean if it has to happen, if the plot calls for it, I just ask for it to be an enjoyable fight thats once again, *well written.*. 

But honestly I hate all the competitive nonsense that goes along with it. 

Cooperation between characters, now thats my jam

----------


## shadowsgirl

I hope Brentwood and the other stuff comes back to Tim's life, because he is now just an empty canvas. We don't know anything personal about NewTim. He was Red Robin all the time, it was really bad. He spent 5 years in Titans hell, what a waste.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Aioros22

> Fine you are not personally biased however there is a definte bias where stuff that has always been standard and accepted for Robins suddenly because reason for complaint with Damian. I've never seen anyone question how a kid is able to fight a grown man or bring up body weight till Damian came along


The only way you wouldn`t would be if you lived in a cave, sorry to be so straightforward. There`s nothing unanimously accepting about a kid beating adults when the same are also good - let alone outstanding figthers. Goku as a kid could beat adult figthers because they weren`t considered above the norm (and this is a character who was born an alien so you have to include that up) but he only ever won a championship among the outstanding group of characters when he became an adult himself. 

Case in point: baby Cass downing adult Bronze Tiger. You betcha that was contested at the time. It still is.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I miss Tims ability to manipulate and fight dirty in a more psychological way, it was to me, one of the more interesting aspects to his fighting style. 
> He defeated enemies with his mind, and now rebirth also has him defeating enemies with his mind, except its in a completely different manner that missed the point. 
> Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoever wins......We lose.... 
> 
> ...


Don't mind fights but it's more about the story. Not a fan of power levels or feats but lord help me When it comes to Damian I don't know what happens.  Even Dick Grayson doesn't get me like that and he's my favourite comic character

----------


## CPSparkles

> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> + Tim and Steph, though possibly in multiple costumes to show the redundant nature of time travel


Like all the above also would love if they add on the nu52 version of him trying to figure out Batman's identity actually using is skills. Figured out Batman's id is part of Tim but I never liked the recognised a move method.

I don't want the not getting along with Damian because really why wouldn't they now

----------


## godisawesome

Just curious, would you change the way Tim discovered Bruce's identity from the New 52, or something else?

----------


## CPSparkles

> Just curious, would you change the way Tim discovered Bruce's identity from the New 52, or something else?


No I wouldn't change it. I quite liked that part of the new backstory . However make it clear that he did figure it out.

----------


## godisawesome

Since I've made dozens of complaining posts about the rest of the origin, what do you think about the rest? Especially in comparison to what came before?

----------


## RedBird

> I don't want the not getting along with Damian because really why wouldn't they now


Yeah same here, I get that theres tension and maybe a bit of awkwardness surrounding their relationship since it started so rocky, but I wish we had more issues that allowed both of them to work together and build a more stable level of trust and kinship. Even just ONE comic issue where it thematically was focused on their relationship together, and what that would be like. That would make me happy  :Big Grin: 

Ooh that goes for Jason and Damian too!

----------


## RedBird

> Just curious, would you change the way Tim discovered Bruce's identity from the New 52, or something else?


Tim being a hacker seems like an okay update, it does feel like a modern take on his investigative mind, he wants to know everything, remember this is the same nosy kid that went straight up to Bruce and Dick. And the fact that he comes CLOSE to figuring it out, isnt a bad change either, we still see him put in the research and we know his intuition is right so its not like its a huge downgrade to his intelligence. In old continuity him figuring Dick identity based on one move felt a little too much for me personally, or at least too much to bank on like he did, it didnt spoil his old origins, but with this new one, at least we see he had more evidence behind his suspicions than a back flip.

Even batman at first rejecting Tim for the role of robin isn't too far off from the original.

Tim doing the whole hacking into penguins account and putting his families lives in danger JUST to be with Batman, was bloody, bad. That was the point where Tims character jumped from being nosy to displaying psychopathic tendencies. I know I said before I would like to see more of Tims cold manipulation, but that story raised it by tenfold.

----------


## shadowsgirl

They changed his New52 origin later. He actually figured it out.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## RedBird

Not really. He narrowed it down for sure, but he was still stuck between two identities, if not for that untimely demise of 'Enrique', he still wasnt 100% about Batmans identity. You can see him even get frustrated from that fact on the second page. He didnt quite figure it out, rather his suspect list was downgraded due to circumstances. It was a process of elimination but the final piece of evidence was out of his control. 

Thats what I meant by him coming CLOSE, since, narrowing it down to two suspects including bruce wayne. THAT was his own detective work, the final nail in the coffin wasnt.

----------


## shadowsgirl

What? He figured it out, he knows it's Bruce. Bruce wanted him to believe that Batman is Enrique, but Tim knows that despite all the evidence (which Bruce planted in the right places) Batman=Bruce Wayne.

----------


## yohyoi

All of that trouble just not to become a Robin and be put in life threatening situations everyday. New52 Tim sounds like a sociopath sometimes. I liked Tim when he was a cute Robin trying his best while enjoying it.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is one of the main reasons why New52 Tim is such a bad character. He was the best at everything from the beginning, so there was no room for character development at all.

----------


## nightbird

Making Tim world class gymnastics was such a meh idea.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is the part where Bruce admits that he created Enrique to fool Tim.

----------


## Alycat

Those panels of Steph and Tim are amazingly cute. Its part of the reason why I cant buy current Steph or their relationship now. None of that stuff exsisted here. We see them meet once and jumpcut to them in bed togther. Theres nothing wrong with writing old stuff back in, but I wish Tynion didnt just throw it in.

----------


## Aioros22

> This is the part where Bruce admits that he created Enrique to fool Tim


You mean, to lure Tim? He basically says Tim discovered what he wanted Tim to discover. But I guess you ca do more than one Reading. 

In a way these pages have Loedbell playing the same double meaning origin of the one with Jason/Joker.

----------


## scary harpy

> Making Tim world class gymnastics was such a meh idea.


I thought it was one of the better ideas.

----------


## Assam

> I thought it was one of the better ideas.


Mind if I ask why? I thought it was pretty dreadful.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Copying Dick Grayson is not a good look for Tim, Dick was a Decathlete Champ as shown in Batman 217 and since 1,940 was billed as an amazing athlete. Tim was the everyman.

----------


## godisawesome

On the surface of it, Tim being a gymnast isn't a bad idea; Pre-Flashpoint Tim also had a prior background in useful athletic skills, though I believe it was only some personal defense classes. The issue is that a) gymnastics are close enough to acrobatics to make it feel like a crib from Dick, b) "world-class" skills make Tim seem less relatable and endearingly under-prepared for the role of sidekick, and c) the only real reason to give him that skill set is to make his training period shorter. And c) is an unwise move not only because the 5-year timeline was pretty unpopular in the Batfandom, especially among the Robin fans, but also because you are in effect trying to abridge over a year's worth of storytelling by Marv Wolfmann and Chuck Dixon in only a panel or two.

Tim's journey to independent vigilante was all designed around justifying and reconstructing Robin as a logical facet of the Gotham night-life; like Cassandra Cain, they intentionally emphasized how much *skill* and *training* you'd need to plausibly accept and under-aged warrior in a world where the previous boy wonder had been beaten half to death by a clown with a crowbar. But while Cass was created from the ground up to have the skills (and an accompanying handicap to counter them), they put Tim through several issues and a miniseries focused on him gaining those skills. And they had truly great writers doing the heavy lifting, not a so-so X-men writer from the era of letting the artists dictate the story.

Tim managing to outfox King Snake and then land the only hit he needed in his miniseries was built up to be an impressive, plausible, and well earned moment of athletic battle prowess, one foreshadowed and set up well before. There was a *value* in his skills and his training before Flashpoint, because they took time and creativity to develope it and made it its own story. In comparison, him being reintroduced as a Olympic level athlete before he even meet Batman is pretty cheap and ultimately kind of boring, aside from being derivative.

----------


## KrustyKid

http://screenrant.com/drake-bell-rob...drake-fan-art/

Came across this article. Probably nothing. But who knows.

----------


## nightbird

> I thought it was one of the better ideas.


Well, if you want him to be Grayson-lite, why not? 
He should've been fit, good/okay at sports, but never "world class", never gymnast. 

I honestly can't connect with Tim, because sometimes he appears as Marty Stu to me.

----------


## Atlanta96

> http://screenrant.com/drake-bell-rob...drake-fan-art/
> 
> Came across this article. Probably nothing. But who knows.


It's nothing. It's the same as when Justin Bieber campaigned for the Robin role a few years ago. I hate it when unqualified actors pull this crap.

----------


## FishyZombie

Honestly I think Josh Peck would be better. Not that I think he'd be a good choice per'se but he looks and seems closer to Tim than Bell.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Honestly I think Josh Peck would be better. Not that I think he'd be a good choice per'se but he looks and seems closer to Tim than Bell.


Is this a joke?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Well, if you want him to be Grayson-lite, why not? 
> He should've been fit, good/okay at sports, but never "world class", never gymnast. 
> 
> I honestly can't connect with Tim, because sometimes he appears as Marty Stu to me.


Damian is a giant Marty Stu.

Tim was always the cerebral one, stripping him of that was gutting the character.

----------


## FishyZombie

> Is this a joke?


Sorta half joking? I mean I wasn't literally suggesting him. I said that in my post. Put down your pitchfork bro.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Pre-Flashpoint Tim also had a prior background in useful athletic skills, though I believe it was only some personal defense classes.


Actually it was more than that. Tim wasn't untrained at all, but he had a lot to learn.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## RedBird

> What? He figured it out, he knows it's Bruce. Bruce wanted him to believe that Batman is Enrique, but Tim knows that despite all the evidence (which Bruce planted in the right places) Batman=Bruce Wayne.





> This is the part where Bruce admits that he created Enrique to fool Tim.


Oh Gosh, wow. You're right, thanks for that. There is WAY to much of Tim new52 history that I am blanking on right now.
But somehow this just makes things worse for me since as Aioros22 says...




> You mean, to lure Tim? He basically says Tim discovered what he wanted Tim to discover. But I guess you ca do more than one Reading. 
> 
> In a way these pages have Loedbell playing the same double meaning origin of the one with Jason/Joker.


JEEZ LOUISE I hadn't even realized how messed up this had all been, I really hope this wasnt meant to be intended as a way to 'lure' Tim.

----------


## scary harpy

> Mind if I ask why? I thought it was pretty dreadful.


Not at all.

One needs a certain *high* level of physical fitness to be a member of the Bat family. Gymnast would be an excellent beginning. I think years of agility and strength exercises would serve Tim well before going under Batman's tutelage.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Oh Gosh, wow. You're right, thanks for that. There is WAY to much of Tim new52 history that I am blanking on right now.
> But somehow this just makes things worse for me since as Aioros22 says...
> 
> 
> 
> JEEZ LOUISE I hadn't even realized how messed up this had all been, I really hope this wasnt meant to be intended as a way to 'lure' Tim.


No, Bruce didn't want Tim as his partner. He didn't want to lose another kid.

----------


## scary harpy

> Well, if you want him to be Grayson-lite, why not? 
> He should've been fit, good/okay at sports, but never "world class", never gymnast. 
> 
> I honestly can't connect with Tim, because sometimes he appears as Marty Stu to me.





> Damian is a giant Marty Stu.
> 
> Tim was always the cerebral one, stripping him of that was gutting the character.


I think there is a big difference between circus acrobat and high-school gymnast.

I feel he needs to be more that fit to beginning training with Batman.

He is still cerebral; now he focuses on computers and gadgetry.

in this world, he's never been Robin; Red Robin seems less of an insider. That doesn't seem like _too perfect_ to me.

----------


## RedBird

> No, Bruce didn't want Tim as his partner. He didn't want to lose another kid.


Interesting, why do you suppose he even admitted to Tim that Enrique was fake and that he only figured out what Bruce wanted him to know? It reads as though he is playing coy with Tim, despite the strong resistance he shows in the car scene.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Interesting, why do you suppose he even admitted to Tim that Enrique was fake and that he only figured out what Bruce wanted him to know? It reads as though he is playing coy with Tim, despite the strong resistance he shows in the car scene.


Because he wanted to stop him.

----------


## RedBird

> Because he wanted to stop him.


I suspected as much, thank you. I know I misread the purpose of Enrique, but I'm just glad to see I didnt ALSO miss some kind of 'Batman wanted to Lure Tim' storyline, now that would have been bad.

Also seeing all these ways that Bruce tried to dissuade Tim all in a row looks hilarious. New52 Tim comes off as even more of a stalker XD Cheers for the compilation!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I suspected as much, thank you. I know I misread the purpose of Enrique, but I'm just glad to see I didnt ALSO miss some kind of 'Batman wanted to Lure Tim' storyline, now that would have been bad.
> 
> Also seeing all these ways that Bruce tried to dissuade Tim all in a row looks hilarious. New52 Tim comes off as even more of a stalker XD Cheers for the compilation!


The story is a little bit confusing, because they changed the details later. In Secret Origins, the story comes from Tim's point of view, so the readers know he figured it out. Originally, in Teen Titans #0, Batman is the one who narrates the story, so the readers don't know what the hell is Tim thinking.

----------


## nightbird

> I think there is a big difference between circus acrobat and high-school gymnast.
> 
> I feel he needs to be more that fit to beginning training with Batman.
> 
> He is still cerebral; now he focuses on computers and gadgetry.
> 
> in this world, he's never been Robin; Red Robin seems less of an insider. That doesn't seem like _too perfect_ to me.


With a bit of adjusting gymnast can perform on trapeze without any discomfort, just like a lot of trapeze artists usually also practice on gymnastic equipments. 
Fencing, taekwondo, diving and trampoline would make him just as fit (if they wanted him so bad to be more than just fit), while giving him something unique, but still plenty helpful. But, honestly I still it's over the top to make him start as someone "so great in everything". 
He is not just "high school gymnast". He is "I'm that good, the best gymnast, worthy Olympic scouts". 
Super smart detective, genius level computer hacker and robot builder, the best gymnast and bo stuff user, cold-minded, good at everything that he does. Sorry, for not being intrigued.

----------


## KrustyKid

> With a bit of adjusting gymnast can perform on trapeze without any discomfort, just like a lot of trapeze artists usually also practice on gymnastic equipments. 
> Fencing, taekwondo, diving and trampoline would make him just as fit (if they wanted him so bad to be more than just fit), while giving him something unique, but still plenty helpful. But, honestly I still it's over the top to make him start as something "so great in everything". 
> He is not just "high school gymnast". He is "I'm that good, the best gymnast, worthy Olympic scouts". 
> Super smart detective, genius level computer hacker and robot builder, the best gymnast and bo stuff user, cold-minded, *good at everything that he does*. Sorry, for not being intrigued.


Except he hasn't been good at everything he does

----------


## nightbird

> Except he hasn't been good at everything he does


In everything that I read he was, but okay, maybe he is not, I'm not gonna argue.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Those panels of Steph and Tim are amazingly cute. Its part of the reason why I cant buy current Steph or their relationship now. None of that stuff exsisted here. We see them meet once and jumpcut to them in bed togther. Theres nothing wrong with writing old stuff back in, but I wish Tynion didnt just throw it in.


Yeah, there was no build-up at all. They first met in Batman Eternal and then they spoke a few words to each other in Batman and Robin Eternal. The next thing we know is that they are living together at the age of 16. In the old Universe, they had been in an on-off relationship for years, and they never even had sex (which, by the way, was totally Tim's fault). He was too responsible, so he didn't want to rush anything. No wonder the Tim/Conner shippers took that as a sign.  :Big Grin:  He mourned Conner in his every waking moment, while he barely spoke about Stephanie at all. It was mega LOL.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> I think there is a big difference between circus acrobat and high-school gymnast.
> 
> I feel he needs to be more that fit to beginning training with Batman.
> 
> He is still cerebral; now he focuses on computers and gadgetry.
> 
> in this world, he's never been Robin; Red Robin seems less of an insider. That doesn't seem like _too perfect_ to me.


I have a feeling whatever is happening with the upcoming Doomsday Clock, Tim's original origin will at least be known to him.

----------


## adrikito

Interesting the first pages of Tim in the comics... I think...




> Yeah, there was no build-up at all. They first met in Batman Eternal and then they spoke a few words to each other in Batman and Robin Eternal. The next thing we know is that they are living together at the age of 16. In the old Universe, they had been in an on-off relationship for years, and they never even had sex (which, by the way, was totally Tim's fault). He was too responsible, so he didn't want to rush anything. No wonder the Tim/Conner shippers took that as a sign.  He mourned Conner in his every waking moment, while he barely spoke about Stephanie at all. It was mega LOL.


steph with short hair.. this is strange for me..  :Confused:

----------


## godisawesome

> I think there is a big difference between circus acrobat and high-school gymnast.
> 
> *I feel he needs to be more that fit to beginning training with Batman.*
> 
> He is still cerebral; now he focuses on computers and gadgetry.
> 
> in this world, he's never been Robin; Red Robin seems less of an insider. That doesn't seem like _too perfect_ to me.


And here's where I disagree with the impetus behind pretty much all the new aspects of Tim's New 52 origin aside from *maybe* changing the method deduction.

Tim having to go through intensive training for months on end (Pre-Flashpoint), that we see and have stories for, is inherently more interesting and unique than someone already at peak conditioning (New 52). Again, the one that involves Lady Shiva, King Snake, and in depth characterization is *better* than the one that has two panels to explain the same thing. And more importantly, it's already made DC money and will most likely continue to make DC more money than either of the somewhat repetitive origin issues, partially because there's more books to be sold and partially because it's just much better written.

It's like the ultimate example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." And it's also weirdly regressive and pathetic in comparison to what came before. Like, if you're going to replace an awesome miniseries, you use another awesome miniseries. You don't erase the entire thing and abridge its outcome in two panels.

----------


## scary harpy

> With a bit of adjusting gymnast can perform on trapeze without any discomfort, just like a lot of trapeze artists usually also practice on gymnastic equipments. 
> Fencing, taekwondo, diving and trampoline would make him just as fit (if they wanted him so bad to be more than just fit), while giving him something unique, but still plenty helpful.


Acrobats often perform without safety net. Gymnasts should not, I hope.

Agreed, TPTB could have gone another route with his fitness.

Gotham has had a Circus theme from the beginning. I still prefer The Flying Todds origin for Jason. So, I don't mind gymnast for Tim.

Others, like Cassandra, have a martial artist background and it fits them better than Tim.

----------


## CPSparkles

> All of that trouble just not to become a Robin and be put in life threatening situations everyday. New52 Tim sounds like a sociopath sometimes. I liked Tim when he was a cute Robin trying his best while enjoying it.


Agreed. That and the Penguin stuff was just some exceptional bad writing. It's like Lobdell forget he was supposed to be writing Tim. I don't mind the investigating and using brains to try to figure out batman's identity but the amount of time dedicated to it an the selling from the Penguin to get Batman's attention. Tim wouldn't do that.

I don't mind the gymnast background since the reduced timeline left no time for Tim to get intense training so they had to give him some sort of capabilities to start with.

Take out the stealing from the Penguin and I'm fine with the new origin. I don't love it but it will do.

----------


## KrustyKid

There goes those boys

RobinBros.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Group shot,

groupd.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Group shot,
> 
> groupd.jpg


Where's that from?

----------


## Assam

> Where's that from?


Tumblr. I saw it there earlier. Didn't catch who the artist was, but you can probably find them by searching some of the characters' names.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is awesome  :Big Grin:  The animation is really good and the Bat boys look crazy as always.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> This is awesome  The animation is really good and the Bat boys look crazy as always.


Very well made. Unfortunately, they made this about 'Robins' and not 'Brothers' so I had to dislike it for the exclusion of Steph.

----------


## Frontier

> There goes those boys
> 
> RobinBros.jpg


This makes me long for a truly great team-up of the Robins (which I feel like I've only gotten in a Brave and the Bold comic that was a cartoon tie-in). 




> Group shot,
> 
> groupd.jpg


I wish more of the people in this image interacted with one another.

Also interesting having Selina right behind Damian and with her hand on his shoulder...

----------


## Assam

> I wish more of the people in this image interacted with one another.


Same. I also wish a few of them were never born.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

On the positive note though, I really would like to get a team up with all 5 of Bruce's kids (Tim is at the very least a surrogate son to Bruce these days) Batman and Robin: Eternal was the first story that ever had all of them, but we _still_ haven't gotten a panel with all of them together. (Not counting the Rebirth splash page.)

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin Royal, choose your character,

Robinss.jpg
Robinssss.jpg

----------


## Caivu

Okay, I'm not crazy, am I?

I'm the bottom response in this image:

Screenshot_20170626-212818.jpg

That's reasonable, right? That Tim should _not_ be pissed at the rest of the team when he gets back? For them reasonably thinking for a while that he died? And because him getting angry at that would make him look like a brat, to put it mildly?

Because that's apparently a minority opinion, I've learned.

----------


## Assam

> Okay, I'm not crazy, am I?
> 
> I'm the bottom response in this image:
> 
> Screenshot_20170626-212818.jpg
> 
> That's reasonable, right? That Tim should not be pissed at the rest of the team when he gets back? For them reasonably thinking for a while that he died? And because him getting angry at that would make him look like a brat, to put it mildly?
> 
> Because that's apparently a minority opinion.


Do the majority really think that he should be mad? That's...unfortunate. It'd be like if when Barry came back from the Speed Force, he told the Flash Family "You f**kers! Just because everyone saw me disintegrate, and Oli met me in Heaven, that's _no_ reason to believe that I wasn't still alive! Just for this, I'm wiping all of you from canon!" 

Actually maybe that is what happened... :Confused: 

Either way, yeah, you're definitely right Caivu.

----------


## Frontier

I could *maybe* understand him feeling that way if he went through excruciating torture as part of being Oz's prisoner, believing his friends would come save him only to learn later on that they all still thought he was dead...but given that's not the case, it's not something I see happening.

----------


## Caivu

> Do the majority really think that he should be mad? That's...unfortunate.


Apparently so, from the majority of the responses I got. The argument is basically: 

"Why couldn't this team of supposedly great detectives not immediately see that something was up and at least _try_ to find some sort of explanation that he might still be alive?"

Gee, I dunno. Maybe because to an outside observer it looks like he got _vaporized._ 

The focus is on the bo staff, which _is_ a clue that something's up, but it's not a clue that screams "Tim got whisked away at the last possible second and is still alive somewhere outside this plane of existence." 

This is paired with "Bruce just accepts that Tim is dead when he went nuts when Damian and Jason died and did everything to try and get them back." Again, vaporized. Can't resurrect a scorch mark.

Plus a helping of "Tim went to hell and back for Bruce when Bruce was thought dead, so he'd be pissed that Bruce didn't do the same for him."

----------


## godisawesome

> Agreed. That and the Penguin stuff was just some exceptional bad writing. It's like Lobdell forget he was supposed to be writing Tim. I don't mind the investigating and using brains to try to figure out batman's identity but the amount of time dedicated to it an the selling from the Penguin to get Batman's attention. Tim wouldn't do that.
> 
> I don't mind the gymnast background since the reduced timeline left no time for Tim to get intense training so they had to give him some sort of capabilities to start with.
> 
> Take out the stealing from the Penguin and I'm fine with the new origin. I don't love it but it will do.


And I still hold that the New 52 origin is objectively inadequate at conveying the core of Tim Drake's appeal or replacing a comparatively massive original. You don't replace a great TPB-sized origin with a bad single issue. And the reduced timeline is $#!+, if you'll pardon my French; it utterly failed the Batman line and caused more harm than good. Once DC decided that four male Robins could make it past the reboot, they kind of forfeited the reasons to make adjustments to the background of arguably the most successfully commercial one in the comics.

You gain nothing from the new origin. You lose a cool background and a tier of adventures you can continue to build on, like how FabNic did so with Shiva in the last issue of the Robin solo.

I can live with it; comics aren't everything. But my fandom for Tim pretty much hinges on moving back to what was great.



> Okay, I'm not crazy, am I?
> 
> I'm the bottom response in this image:
> 
> Attachment 50987
> 
> That's reasonable, right? That Tim should _not_ be pissed at the rest of the team when he gets back? For them reasonably thinking for a while that he died? And because him getting angry at that would make him look like a brat, to put it mildly?
> 
> Because that's apparently a minority opinion, I've learned.


I'm with you; I don't see him being furious at the team. At least, not for not coming for him.  I *could* see him being perturbed at what happened to Steph in the successive arc, but I fail to see how his anger would be directed towards his crew when his captor successfully teleported him away, and there's apparently something significant about his fellow prisoners when he returns. It all adds up to Tim having a strong grasp of how powerful and sneaky Oz is. Also, and this is a "personal head canon" thing, as much as a I despise the term, but if this results in Tim regaining some of his history, than it would be interesting for him to be calm about it because previously, *he* was the one convinced Bruce was alive when all physical evidence pointed to the contrary, so he shouldn't be surprised at all to the reaction he recieves upon returning.

----------


## RedBird

> Okay, I'm not crazy, am I?
> 
> That's reasonable, right? That Tim should _not_ be pissed at the rest of the team when he gets back? For them reasonably thinking for a while that he died? And because him getting angry at that would make him look like a brat, to put it mildly?
> 
> Because that's apparently a minority opinion, I've learned.


You're not crazy, theres no reason for Tim to be upset nor do I believe he even has any right to feel upset. No one 'let him down'.

----------


## RedBird

> Apparently so, from the majority of the responses I got. The argument is basically: 
> 
> "Why couldn't this team of supposedly great detectives not immediately see that something was up and at least _try_ to find some sort of explanation that he might still be alive?"
> 
> Gee, I dunno. Maybe because to an outside observer it looks like he got _vaporized._ 
> 
> The focus is on the bo staff, which _is_ a clue that something's up, but it's not a clue that screams "Tim got whisked away at the last possible second and is still alive somewhere outside this plane of existence." 
> 
> This is paired with "Bruce just accepts that Tim is dead when he went nuts when Damian and Jason died and did everything to try and get them back." Again, vaporized. Can't resurrect a scorch mark.
> ...


Sounds like fan indignation more than actual assessment of the situation. All the points you make here are exactly why no one should really think that Tim would be alive. I would like to add to that Damian and Jason death argument with the fact that Jason is adopted in Rebirth, he had died as Bruces son. First son, if we were to go by post crisis continuity. And Damian is also Bruces son through biological means. Of course he went crazy for them, they were his. Rebirth Tim though? Tim has parents that love him, Bruce feels responsible for this death as you see him mourning in TEC but I dont think he sees Tim like a son right now, but more of an ally, one that desperately wanted the role or Robin/RR and died fighting. Tims status right now feels much like Barbaras, a respected ally and dear friend.

----------


## Frontier

> Plus a helping of "Tim went to hell and back for Bruce when Bruce was thought dead, so he'd be pissed that Bruce didn't do the same for him."


It is kind of funny to think, though, that Tim was so sure that Bruce was still alive with just as much flimsy evidence. He'd probably be investigating his own "death" if he was still there  :Stick Out Tongue: .

But I guess he is *the* detective of the family, next to Bruce.

----------


## Assam

> Where's that from?


I found the artist (By total accident.) Their tumblr name is ' Kascayn '

----------


## CPSparkles

> And I still hold that the New 52 origin is objectively inadequate at conveying the core of Tim Drake's appeal or replacing a comparatively massive original. You don't replace a great TPB-sized origin with a bad single issue. And the reduced timeline is $#!+, if you'll pardon my French; it utterly failed the Batman line and caused more harm than good. Once DC decided that four male Robins could make it past the reboot, they kind of forfeited the reasons to make adjustments to the background of arguably the most successfully commercial one in the comics.
> 
> You gain nothing from the new origin. You lose a cool background and a tier of adventures you can continue to build on, like how FabNic did so with Shiva in the last issue of the Robin solo.
> 
> I can live with it; comics aren't everything. But my fandom for Tim pretty much hinges on moving back to what was great.



The reduced timeline was very s**t and the reason why they had to gut so much of his history and experiences. You can't fit 4 Robins in that space so they decided to cut things. Tim unfortunately due to his long tenure as Robin in recent had the most that could be cut. Jason was dead for such a long time there was nothing to cut. 
Dick lost a lot of his history and relationships.
Damian was new so nothing to cut.

Unfortunately Tim is defined by those experiences. They make his character and we took that journey with him so to see all that erased was unsettling and imo I might as we be reading a new character. 

The origin was adequate aside from the Penguin rubbish the real burn is the loss of his history but that's not on the writer. That's on the wise guy who thought it would a whiz to reduce the timeline and still fit 4 Robins.
What is on the writer is stuff like stealing to gain attention and the personality change. Like I said it's like they forget they were supposed to be writing Tim.

I hope that we get those years back because no matter how much of a face lift Tynion gives Rebirth Tim he will never be the same with the stories that defined him. Rebirth Tim looks like Tim, walks like Tim but isn't Tim Drake.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Training session with the Titans

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

Gah! It burns!

Sorry, couldn't resist. This is Pfeiffer's run, right? It seemed like he sucked considerably less than Lobdell, but still suffered from some flaws: a focus on an overly-powerful villain (though Manchester Black > any part of NOWHERE) sometime sat the expense of the team, and whole lot of editorial interference.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Gah! It burns!
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist. This is Pfeiffer's run, right? It seemed like he sucked considerably less than Lobdell, but still suffered from some flaws: a focus on an overly-powerful villain (though Manchester Black > any part of NOWHERE) sometime sat the expense of the team, and whole lot of editorial interference.


No, the writer is Tony Bedard. Pfeifer left after issue 16. But all things considered, the second Teen Titans series wasn't so horrible, but it wasn't good either. It was a little bit meh, but compared to Lobdell's series, it was a HUGE improvement.

----------


## scary harpy

Thanks for posting that shadowsgirl.

I agree that it wasn't the worst thing I ever seen. Yeah, "meh" describes it pretty well.

If the black was changed to green, Tim would have a great Flamebird costume. I may be the only one but I liked him being able to fly. (Sets him apart from the bat-others.)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks for posting that shadowsgirl.
> 
> I agree that it wasn't the worst thing I ever seen. Yeah, "meh" describes it pretty well.
> 
> If the black was changed to green, Tim would have a great Flamebird costume. I may be the only one but I liked him being able to fly. (Sets him apart from the bat-others.)


I liked that, too, but because of the wings, he barely fought. He just hit his opponents with his wings. Unfortunately, Tim was still a jerk in the second series, so I think it was encoded into his New52 DNA. The guy just couldn't catch a break.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I see your argument but the writing still is stretching his capabilities for the sake of the plot and that kind of stuff can just come of as trying too hard to impress in my opinion. 
> He caught 4 meta teammates off guard. In a row. Thats an astounding feat, but its not treated that way in the writing, do you see what I'm saying? He manages to beat down adults/vigilantes with equal or years of training above himself, plus aspects such as age, weight and height over him. Does it seem to take a toll on him? No, this is apparently childs play for Damian Wayne. Within the the text these achievements are grand, but the writing gives off the impression that he is barely breaks a sweat over it. And thats just....boring. I mean, Batman is a great character, but that doesnt mean everyone is happy to see him as 'BatGod'. Seeing a character just roll with every punch can inspire audience eyerolls. 
> 
> For an example of this done well, look at the John Wick movie. He is built up to be the worlds greatest assassin theres no question to that, he is THE BEST, and whilst the movie does poke fun at itself in that regard it doesnt mean that John the character is able to pull off astounding feats without it taking a considerable toll on him physically, even a 'common guard' can give him a hard time. His struggle doesnt take away from his strength because he succeeds in the end, but that doesnt mean that there are no bumps in the road along the way. Jackie Chans films are also a great example of extraordinary feats woven with struggle and effort. Not EVERY writer does this with Damian, but I find that instances of this kind of 'batgod' accomplishments keep popping up and its in an attempt from writers to either be humorous or make him appear cool when its unnecessary.
> 
> 
> See, even you yourself found that to be ridiculous. You may be able to suspend your disbelief, but sorry I just can't, especially with something that's LITERALLY impossible. See now kidnapping his teammates, beating other vigilante's I could accept (if like I said it didnt come across as so whatever) If done well, extraordinary feats (by any of the bats) I can accept, they are after all extraodinary characters, impossible feats though, no. Just no, thats just writers being lazy, that laziness almost spoiled Nightwing 20 for me (the hugging scene made up for it fortunately )
> 
> 
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree and I still you are overly critical if such a thing as oh I moved my liver was nearly enough to ruin an issue for you. An issue of  comics about Superheros who do ridiculous things on the daily. I think it is super critical to class a character as overpowered because of like 5/6 incidents in what 6 years and most of them not founded. Even if they were that doesn't make a character powered.

The other don't have as much training or experience as he does aside from Dick since the timeline was reduced.

On this very page there are scans of Red Robin who has 12 months under Batman and gymnastic training taking down all Teen Titans and that's okay. 
Damian who has been training from the second he was pulled from his artificial womb and who has more field experience manages to catch 4 metas when their guard is down and there's an issue. 

Anyway you are right it is Tim's thread afterall

----------


## RedBird

> We will have to agree to disagree and I still you are overly critical if such a thing as oh I moved my liver was nearly enough to ruin an issue for you. An issue of  comics about Superheros who do ridiculous things on the daily. I think it is super critical to class a character as overpowered because of like 5/6 incidents in what 6 years and most of them not founded. Even if they were that doesn't make a character powered.


We still doing this?

Look no offence but you are simply telling me what you think I am being.

If you actually agreed to disagree, why are you still trying to tell me my own opinion is wrong, inadvertently trying to classify your own as right?

I have made my argument already, I presented my view along with my reasoning, I'm done. Now your are saying that even if my evidence was all founded that I am still wrong about my own opinion and feelings on the situation. What?

Agreeing to disagree doesnt mean trying to discredit someone elses views with language that implies their opinion or thought process is skewed in some way. It means agreeing that we don't agree on a matter, and THATS OK. We each have our own stance on comics, thats fine.  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

> We will have to agree to disagree and I still you are overly critical if such a thing as oh I moved my liver was nearly enough to ruin an issue for you. An issue of  comics about Superheros who do ridiculous things on the daily. I think it is super critical to class a character as overpowered because of like 5/6 incidents in what 6 years and most of them not founded. Even if they were that doesn't make a character powered.
> 
> The other don't have as much training or experience as he does aside from Dick since the timeline was reduced.
> 
> *On this very page there are scans of Red Robin who has 12 months under Batman and gymnastic training taking down all Teen Titans and that's okay.* 
> Damian who has been training from the second he was pulled from his artificial womb and who has more field experience manages to catch 4 metas when their guard is down and there's an issue. 
> 
> Anyway you are right it is Tim's thread afterall


Eh, I don't really like it either. Any Bat-character taking on a powered team with just a utility belt is generally pretty bad. It's kind of like that Batman Confidential issue where they had Batman take on the Justice League without any tools, or the issue of Identity Crisis issue with Deathstroke: it requires bad "booking" of the rest of the team to make them "job" to the underpowered character. The ideas and tactics used against individual characters may make sense (though not always: see Batman judo throwing the also skilled Wonder Woman, Deathstroke managing to grab Green Lantern's hand when the latter can fly and brain does not equal will, or, say, Tim's go staff being able to redirect magical lightning) but being able to deploy them against multiple teammates _at the same time?_

Nah, that's too much.

Also, that Bedard's issue doors seem to back up my opinion that Tim's skills were still downplayed (I'd argue correctly) in the bat books while overplayed in TT.

----------


## RedBird

> On this very page there are scans of Red Robin who has 12 months under Batman and gymnastic training taking down all Teen Titans and that's okay.


Not really....That page is new to me. I gave up on Teen Titans halfway through (for obvious reasons!) I only continued picking up issues here and there.

In all fairness I'm not too well versed with new52 Tim, which at this point in DC can only be regarded as a blessing XD

----------


## shadowsgirl

The New52 Teen Titans aren't trained, they are a bunch of rookie. Tim is the only one here who had training with Batman. Plus, like in the old Universe, Tim has contingency plans. At least that element survived the reboot. Tim is always prepared. We're talking about this guy here.

----------


## RedBird

> The New52 Teen Titans aren't trained, they are a bunch of rookie. Tim is the only one here who had training with Batman. Plus, like in the old Universe, Tim has contingency plans. At least that element survived the reboot. Tim is always prepared. We're talking about this guy here.


Jeez I struggle hiding seams under clothes, how in the hell did he fit the vegas feathers under there??

Also on a sidenote, I nearly lost my mind looking at Cassie jumping over the rail, I thought that was her boob swinging all the way under her arm XD
Its the clothes swinging in the breeze, I know better now.

----------


## scary harpy

> I liked that, too, but because of the wings, he barely fought. He just hit his opponents with his wings. Unfortunately, Tim was still a jerk in the second series, so I think it was encoded into his New52 DNA. The guy just couldn't catch a break.


I'm glad I'm not alone in liking the wings.

The art is pretty good too.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Jeez I struggle hiding seams under clothes, how in the hell did he fit the vegas feathers under there??
> 
> Also on a sidenote, I nearly lost my mind looking at Cassie jumping over the rail, I thought that was her boob swinging all the way under her arm XD
> Its the clothes swinging in the breeze, I know better now.


Haha, I never noticed the Cassie thing until now. About Tim, well, I don't know how he did it, but he managed it pretty good.

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## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm glad I'm not alone in liking the wings.
> 
> The art is pretty good too.


I liked the wings, because they reminded me of the Batman Beyond costume. As it turned out later, that was the point. Before the reboot, they showed the Batman Beyond costume in Tim's series, too.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I love that line from Ra's, and its my favorite thing that Fab Nic did while he was on the book. 

Ra's works great as a reflection of Tim because deep down he doesn't KNOW that he's wrong. He spits the bat gospel, and he desperately wants to believe it, but he's too smart to buy into it 100%.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I love that line from Ra's, and its my favorite thing that Fab Nic did while he was on the book. 
> 
> Ra's works great as a reflection of Tim because deep down he doesn't KNOW that he's wrong. He spits the bat gospel, and he desperately wants to believe it, but he's too smart to buy into it 100%.


The man who is talking here isn't Ra's, but you're right, the dynamic between Tim and Ra's was very interesting. I really hope Tim will remember their encounters, if his memories come back.

----------


## godisawesome

I'd heard how Bedard's run was ironically the best of the New 52 Teen Titans, and that little dance sequence seems like evidence of it. Like, Tim being a bit shy about dancing? That's _perfect._

Still...



> The New52 Teen Titans aren't trained, they are a bunch of rookie. Tim is the only one here who had training with Batman. Plus, like in the old Universe, Tim has contingency plans. At least that element survived the reboot. Tim is always prepared. We're talking about this guy here.


Trying to show Tim as so experienced in comparison to the others kind of puts the lie to the overhaul of his origin; if he's supposed to be the veteran hero who's experience is a major advantage, than the newer, lighter, and more pathetic past they gave him doesn't fit, and again, the fight scene you showed earlier still relies way too much on jobbing the rest of the team: Tim having technology to reverse magic lightning is not something you just have him pull out of nowhere, the equation of "shapeshifting-tiger + chlorine gas = butterfly" doesn't make sense, and the other characters are all _far_ too slow to react.

And I get them being inexperienced in comparison, but treating them like chumps doesn't make Tim look cool; it just makes him look blandly written, even badly written. It's like when WWE has Cena or Reigns stomp another skilled wrestler by using only no-sells and the heroic second wind; I'm not seeing a skilled character, I'm seeing someone with a character-shield on maximum being artificially built up with bad jobbing. It's counter intuitive as well. Taking down a size changer like Powergirl should be impressive, even if she's a rookie and Tim's not. Having him dispose of her while multi-tasking with on move is the opposite of impressive. It's kind of boring.

At heart, Tim works better when written as an intelligent but modest Bronze Age superhero, where his accomplishments are made impressive by highlighting their difficulty and the sheer amount of work he'd have to put in to get them done. He's a bad@$$, but one who doesn't strain your credulity. It's kind of like how having him wearing the full costume underneath his civvies feels a bit much when even Lobdell (who again, I _loathe_ when it comes to his work on TT) was smart enough to have Jason only have half his stuff in RHATO when ambushed. It's a silver age treatment for a character who evolved in the era that surpassed the Silver Age.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'd heard how Bedard's run was ironically the best of the New 52 Teen Titans, and that little dance sequence seems like evidence of it. Like, Tim being a bit shy about dancing? That's _perfect._
> 
> Still...
> 
> Trying to show Tim as so experienced in comparison to the others kind of puts the lie to the overhaul of his origin; if he's supposed to be the veteran hero who's experience is a major advantage, than the newer, lighter, and more pathetic past they gave him doesn't fit, and again, the fight scene you showed earlier still relies way too much on jobbing the rest of the team: Tim having technology to reverse magic lightning is not something you just have him pull out of nowhere, the equation of "shapeshifting-tiger + chlorine gas = butterfly" doesn't make sense, and the other characters are all _far_ too slow to react.
> 
> And I get them being inexperienced in comparison, but treating them like chumps doesn't make Tim look cool; it just makes him look blandly written, even badly written. It's like when WWE has Cena or Reigns stomp another skilled wrestler by using only no-sells and the heroic second wind; I'm not seeing a skilled character, I'm seeing someone with a character-shield on maximum being artificially built up with bad jobbing. It's counter intuitive as well. Taking down a size changer like Powergirl should be impressive, even if she's a rookie and Tim's not. Having him dispose of her while multi-tasking with on move is the opposite of impressive. It's kind of boring.
> 
> At heart, Tim works better when written as an intelligent but modest Bronze Age superhero, where his accomplishments are made impressive by highlighting their difficulty and the sheer amount of work he'd have to put in to get them done. He's a bad@$$, but one who doesn't strain your credulity. It's kind of like how having him wearing the full costume underneath his civvies feels a bit much when even Lobdell (who again, I _loathe_ when it comes to his work on TT) was smart enough to have Jason only have half his stuff in RHATO when ambushed. It's a silver age treatment for a character who evolved in the era that surpassed the Silver Age.


This is from Teen Titans Annual 2, and Lobdell is the writer. He returned one more time last year to wrote this issue. By the way, both New52 Teen Titans series were Tim-centric. The titles should be called Red Robin and his friends. He was the main character, so he was the one who always stole everyone's thunder. He was overpowered, just like Damian is now in the Rebirth series. If you're a Bat character, you will get the best treatment among the others.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> The man who is talking here isn't Ra's, but you're right, the dynamic between Tim and Ra's was very interesting. I really hope Tim will remember their encounters, if his memories come back.


Who was that? Not sure why I'm blanking. 

But yeah, the general war Tim was having with himself on what is too far, and how will he know when he's crossed that line, was very interesting.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Who was that? Not sure why I'm blanking. 
> 
> But yeah, the general war Tim was having with himself on what is too far, and how will he know when he's crossed that line, was very interesting.


It never came to light. Fabian Nicieza wanted to write Tim for years. When DC cancelled the series, he was very disappointed. He had a lot of plans for Tim. I suppose he wanted to tell Lynx's story, too. By the way, Tim would have celebrated his 18th birthday in issue 50. Nicieza loves Tim, so it's a bummer.

----------


## millernumber1

While I appreciate FabNic's love for Tim, I...am not super sad that he's not currently writing him. I could do without "every villain girl throwing themselves at Tim in various states of undress".  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> While I appreciate FabNic's love for Tim, I...am not super sad that he's not currently writing him. I could do without "every villain girl throwing themselves at Tim in various states of undress".


I loved his Tim. Plus, Tim's awkward situations with various girls were funny. Tim's virginity was a long-running joke, so it was just a nod to that. And while I'm a Tim/Steph shipper, I really wanted to see Tim with Lynx. Sooner or later, Tim and Steph will always return to each, but Lynx had potential. That relationship could be very exciting. My other favourite pairing was Tim and Rose, oh my, that relationship would be so entertaining. Rose tried to seduce Tim at least 2 times, but Tim was so stubborn. She was waiting for him in his bed naked, and Tim was like "ehh". He just wanted to throw her out of his room.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

If Dixon can't write Tim, then Fabian is my next choice.   He has a lot of love and respect for the character.

----------


## millernumber1

> I loved his Tim. Plus, Tim's awkward situations with various girls were funny. Tim's virginity was a long-running joke, so it was just a nod to that. And while I'm a Tim/Steph shipper, I really wanted to see Tim with Lynx. Sooner or later, Tim and Steph will always return to each, but Lynx had potential. That relationship could be very exciting. My other favourite pairing was Tim and Rose, oh my, that relationship would be so entertaining. Rose tried to seduce Tim at least 2 times, but Tim was so stubborn. She was waiting for him in his bed naked, and Tim was like "ehh". He just wanted to throw her out of his room.


Eh. I didn't really enjoy the Rose situation, the Lynx situation, or the League of Assassins girl situation. Just felt like too much.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Eh. I didn't really enjoy the Rose situation, the Lynx situation, or the League of Assassins girl situation. Just felt like too much.


I agree with this, but FabNic gets a lot of points for actually having an interesting direction for the character while not totally losing sight of him.

I give props to Tynion for bringing him back a bit, and writing him in a more recognizable way, but I still want to see a direction when he gets back.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Eh. I didn't really enjoy the Rose situation, the Lynx situation, or the League of Assassins girl situation. Just felt like too much.


But Rose even had a Robin thong. It was priceless. You can't convince me otherwise.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

> Eh. I didn't really enjoy the Rose situation, the Lynx situation, or the League of Assassins girl situation. Just felt like too much.


I'm not a fan of the Rose thing, or the Cassie thing for that matter. But I have to admit, I _really_ loved the way that FabNic played with the Catwoman-archetype with Lynx. The basic archetype is "pretty Catlady who fights/flirts with the hero, and has _just_ enough redeeming features to occasionally ally with." Lynx is that, plus "may or may not be another teen hero, but in the murky waters of working for a foreign police service on American soil." That was a nice little spin to make the situation just that little bit more complicated and to tailor it to Tim's character. It'd be a little hard to see him seriously getting entangled with a thief or robber, but someone who claims to be on the side of the Angels and has just enough circumstantial evidence to appear so? Yeah, that might do it.

Plus, even though the HKPD is still nominally separate from mainland China's police service, I did think it could be worked to make the alliance between him and her even murkier. Back when FabNic was answering questions in the old DC Boards, I pointed out that her sticking her finger underneath his mask to pull it off might be less kissy-kissy inspired and more "my superiors would very much enjoy information on the identity of an American vigilante with an international profile..."

Of course, he shot it down, but still... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree with this, but FabNic gets a lot of points for actually having an interesting direction for the character while not totally losing sight of him.
> 
> I give props to Tynion for bringing him back a bit, and writing him in a more recognizable way, but I still want to see a direction when he gets back.


Oh, I will definitely be expecting Tynion to have a direction for Tim in September. If he doesn't, I shall have many harsh words for my currently favorite Bat-book!  :Smile: 

I do agree that FabNic's direction for Tim was interesting, but it's a terrible ending for the series (not his fault, since the n52 was pretty sudden), so that kinda soured me on his half of the series after all the good stuff I enjoyed with Yost's run.




> But Rose even had a Robin thong. It was priceless. You can't convince me otherwise.


It's hilarious, but not something I want to be a normal thing in my comics.

----------


## Assam

Yeah, I'm in the camp that doesn't like all the girls throwing themselves at Tim. For several reasons. (And BTW, the best match for Tim romantically is STILL Ariana) 

Also, ugh, those scans. Johns completely destroyed Rose's character and made her the worst.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I'm in the camp that doesn't like all the girls throwing themselves at Tim. For several reasons. (And BTW, the best match for Tim romantically is STILL Ariana) 
> 
> Also, ugh, those scans. Johns completely destroyed Rose's character and made her the worst.


Ahaha. You know what I think about Tim's love life.  :Smile: 

I didn't really like what Johns did with Rose, though I've only read a couple of issues of that. I liked the bits I read of McKeever's backups with Rose, and I really like what Priest is doing with her in Deathstroke.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Yeah, I'm in the camp that doesn't like all the girls throwing themselves at Tim. For several reasons. (And BTW, the best match for Tim romantically is STILL Ariana) 
> 
> Also, ugh, those scans. Johns completely destroyed Rose's character and made her the worst.


The writer is Mark Sable. The Teen Titans: Cold Case is a one-shot issue from 2011.

----------


## Assam

> Ahaha. You know what I think about Tim's love life. 
> 
> I didn't really like what Johns did with Rose, though I've only read a couple of issues of that. I liked the bits I read of McKeever's backups with Rose, and I really like what Priest is doing with her in Deathstroke.


And you know what I think about _Steph's_ love life.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Don't really remember the backups, and no power in the verse is going to get me to pick up _Deathstroke_. (Interestingly, there _is_ a critic who doesn't like the book apparently.) But yeah, much like everything else Johns touched in his Teen Titans run, his Rose was garbage, and by extension, led to her being garbage for years to come.

----------


## Assam

> The writer is Mark Sable. The Teen Titans: Cold Case is a one-shot issue from 2011.


Yes, but Johns is the one who turned her _into_  that kind of character.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> And you know what I think about _Steph's_ love life. 
> 
> Don't really remember the backups, and no power in the verse is going to get me to pick up _Deathstroke_. (Interestingly, there _is_ a critic who doesn't like the book apparently.) But yeah, much like everything else Johns touched in his Teen Titans run, his Rose was garbage, and by extension, led to her being garbage for years to come.


What? Rose was totally badass in Teen Titans. And her banters with the others were always entertaining.

----------


## Dataweaver

OK; where can I find this Secret Origins issue? I've got TT#0; but not this “other perspective” version. And I don't want to comment further until I've had a chance to check it out for myself.

----------


## godisawesome

The main deal with Johns's Titans run in regards to characters is that he gave a lot of characters new directions and interpretations that worked decently enough _while he was writing it._ Johns, for all the faults he may have, has a very cinematic style with a good idea of how to ramp up to major reveals and moments for individual characters, and he still had a good measure of how to handle an ensemble book from his years on JSA. His biggest issue when writing Teen Titans was that he tended to hammer characters into different archetypes from what they had previously been successful as: the popularity-seeking but good-at-heart Superboy becomes a quiet jock, Wonder Girl went from matured leader and spokesperson with great people skills to angry female jock, Bart went form fun-personified Impulse to a bland Kid Flash, and Tim became more of a clear Batman type.

Now, Johns could pull it off for the first two years because he knew how to mix references for older interpretations into his new ones: Superboy being told "you're smarter than you look", and Bart still getting something Impulsive wrong with a plan. But he eventually radiated away from those elements, and by the time he left the books, they were so different that other writers couldn't make them work.

----------


## Assam

> What? Rose was totally badass in Teen Titans. And her banters with the others were always entertaining.


Godisawesome, as usual, gave a very eloquent explanation of the problem. And likewise, I agree that for all his faults that Johns is still a very talented writer. Only thing I really disagree on is that his run was _ever_ good. I personally think it was trash from the start. 

As for Rose, it's the same deal as with the YJ4. Johns made her unrecognizable. Looking at this snarky, annoying rude brat when compared to the mature and badass young woman she was during _The Titans_  Vol. 1 is just sickening.

----------


## millernumber1

> And you know what I think about _Steph's_ love life.


Of course I do - tis why I winked!




> OK; where can I find this Secret Origins issue? I've got TT#0; but not this “other perspective” version. And I don't want to comment further until I've had a chance to check it out for myself.


https://www.comixology.com/Secret-Or...l-comic/111135

Secret Origins #3.

----------


## Dataweaver

BTW: as of Superman Reborn, there's a ten+-year gap between the Death of Superman and the present. I'm figuring that Kon was removed from Reign of the Supermen in part because of this: having Kon being physically in his mid-20s and/or mentally with over a decade of experience under his belt is a bit much. 

I say that to illustrate a point: namely, that the composed timeline is kaput.  We don't have to try to squeeze four Robins into five years anymore. I see no reason why Tim's inaugural mini-series can't be treated as being back in continuity now — in broad strokes, of course. Even setting aside the “Tim started out as Red Robin” thing (which I'll legend to shortly), bear in mind that the original miniseries had King Snake's scheme involving the at the time not yet released currency of the not-yet European Union. If for no other reason than that, the details have to change; but the broad strokes of the story (road trip across Europe; taken under Lady Shiva's wing; picked up an edge under her training, but rejected her attempt to turn him into an assassin) can really be reinstated.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Of course I do - tis why I winked!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.comixology.com/Secret-Or...l-comic/111135
> 
> Secret Origins #3.


Thanks for the link.

OK: one thing surprised me here, though it makes sense in context: his parents go into witness protection, and Tim starts using his middle name as his last name: that is, his parents aren't “the Drakes”, and Tim's birth name isn't “Timothy ___ Drake”; it's “Timothy Drake ___” (I'm leaving the last name blank because we're never told what it is — unless I missed something?).

I'm still not happy with the “I'm auditioning to be your partner” thing, and the Penguin thing is still an incredibly bone-headed move on his part — but really, the overall problem here is the arrogance of this version of Tim. SO#3 tones that down a bit by putting back the notion that Tim notices that Batman is falling apart after Jason's disappearance: this at least partially restores his original motive of wanting to help Batman, as opposed to his motive of wanting to become a crimefighter. 

_A Lonely Place of Dying_ had the notion of Tim trying to push Dick back into the role of Robin, and then bring surprised when Alfred suggests that Tim might do well in that role; this new origin could be salvaged in a similar way: add some backstory between the point that Tim first notices that Batman is starting to lose it and when he starts actively auditioning for the role where someone else (Ives?) puts the idea into his head. That is, set it up so that him becoming Robin was not originally his idea.  Between that and Tim's internal monologue where his thoughts are foremost about Bruce's welfare, and his actions don't come off nearly as arrogant or ambitious anymore.

With the arrogance and ambition elements toned down, the new Secret Origin becomes a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. Insert a few months of training (instead of minutes of exposition) between Bruce letting him into the Batcave and him suiting up, and toning down his initial gymnastic prowess from “Olympic level” to “very good”, and you have something I could accept as a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. 

Yes, even with the Penguin thing. I'm still not thrilled with it; but I can accept it.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Godisawesome, as usual, gave a very eloquent explanation of the problem. And likewise, I agree that for all his faults that Johns is still a very talented writer. Only thing I really disagree on is that his run was _ever_ good. I personally think it was trash from the start. 
> 
> As for Rose, it's the same deal as with the YJ4. Johns made her unrecognizable. Looking at this snarky, annoying rude brat when compared to the mature and badass young woman she was during _The Titans_  Vol. 1 is just sickening.


Well maybe it's sickening for you, but Rose is one of my favourites in the series. And this Teen Titans run is my all-time favourite. Everyone has different taste, deal with it.

----------


## Assam

> Well maybe it's sickening for you, but Rose is one of my favourites in the series. And this Teen Titans run is my all-time favourite. Everyone has different taste, deal with it.


Did I ever say you _weren't_ allowed to like this version of Rose and this TT series? No, I didn't, there's no reason to go on the offense. 

You're perfectly entitled to express your opinion that Rose as Ravager is great, and that the 2003 TT series is fantastic. Just as _I_ am entitled to express my belief that the character Johns made Rose into is dreadful, and that every Titans  run from between 2003-2016 had the same amount of quality as M. Night Shyamalan's _The Last Airbender._

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks for the link.
> 
> OK: one thing surprised me here, though it makes sense in context: his parents go into witness protection, and Tim starts using his middle name as his last name: that is, his parents aren't “the Drakes”, and Tim's birth name isn't “Timothy ___ Drake”; it's “Timothy Drake ___” (I'm leaving the last name blank because we're never told what it is — unless I missed something?).
> 
> I'm still not happy with the “I'm auditioning to be your partner” thing, and the Penguin thing is still an incredibly bone-headed move on his part — but really, the overall problem here is the arrogance of this version of Tim. SO#3 tones that down a bit by putting back the notion that Tim notices that Batman is falling apart after Jason's disappearance: this at least partially restores his original motive of wanting to help Batman, as opposed to his motive of wanting to become a crimefighter. 
> 
> _A Lonely Place of Dying_ had the notion of Tim trying to push Dick back into the role of Robin, and then bring surprised when Alfred suggests that Tim might do well in that role; this new origin could be salvaged in a similar way: add some backstory between the point that Tim first notices that Batman is starting to lose it and when he starts actively auditioning for the role where someone else (Ives?) puts the idea into his head. That is, set it up so that him becoming Robin was not originally his idea.  Between that and Tim's internal monologue where his thoughts are foremost about Bruce's welfare, and his actions don't come off nearly as arrogant or ambitious anymore.
> 
> With the arrogance and ambition elements toned down, the new Secret Origin becomes a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. Insert a few months of training (instead of minutes of exposition) between Bruce letting him into the Batcave and him suiting up, and toning down his initial gymnastic prowess from “Olympic level” to “very good”, and you have something I could accept as a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. 
> ...


Yeah, the Secret Origins thing was significantly better than the Teen Titans #0 one. It's so frustrating that it still doesn't really acknowledge any of Tim's actual adventures as Robin, which I'm much more invested in than his origin.  :Smile:  But maybe, with Tynion bringing Tim back, we'll start to get some of those.

----------


## godisawesome

> Thanks for the link.
> 
> OK: one thing surprised me here, though it makes sense in context: his parents go into witness protection, and Tim starts using his middle name as his last name: that is, his parents aren't “the Drakes”, and Tim's birth name isn't “Timothy ___ Drake”; it's “Timothy Drake ___” (I'm leaving the last name blank because we're never told what it is — unless I missed something?).
> 
> I'm still not happy with the “I'm auditioning to be your partner” thing, and the Penguin thing is still an incredibly bone-headed move on his part — but really, the overall problem here is the arrogance of this version of Tim. SO#3 tones that down a bit by putting back the notion that Tim notices that Batman is falling apart after Jason's disappearance: this at least partially restores his original motive of wanting to help Batman, as opposed to his motive of wanting to become a crimefighter. 
> 
> _A Lonely Place of Dying_ had the notion of Tim trying to push Dick back into the role of Robin, and then bring surprised when Alfred suggests that Tim might do well in that role; this new origin could be salvaged in a similar way: add some backstory between the point that Tim first notices that Batman is starting to lose it and when he starts actively auditioning for the role where someone else (Ives?) puts the idea into his head. That is, set it up so that him becoming Robin was not originally his idea.  Between that and Tim's internal monologue where his thoughts are foremost about Bruce's welfare, and his actions don't come off nearly as arrogant or ambitious anymore.
> 
> With the arrogance and ambition elements toned down, the new Secret Origin becomes a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. Insert a few months of training (instead of minutes of exposition) between Bruce letting him into the Batcave and him suiting up, and toning down his initial gymnastic prowess from “Olympic level” to “very good”, and you have something I could accept as a reasonable substitute for _A Lonely Place of Dying_. 
> ...


I've said before that Penguin being the fixture villain of Tim's origin isn't a bad idea-- like how I thought that the new Lynx is a great take on Tim's Catwoman because of her more espionage and mysterious status, a scheming, devious, and careful villain like Penguin is a great counteroart to Two-Face in Jason's origin.

And it feels like the issue with Penguin could be fixed pretty simply: it's not Tim who calls down Penguin's wrath, it's his father. Either have Daddy Drake (and I'd keep Drake as the family's real name) steal money from Penguin for some reason (it could be entirely altruistic or something more prosaic like providing for Tim's education) or something else, like being a witness to Penguin's crimes. 

Boom.

Tim's not the idiot who arrogantly over-reached and got rewarded for it. He's the kid who managed to call down the Dark Knight to help his family in a time of need. And his parents could have their deaths faked (maybe Jack Drake actually got injured) and Bruce taking Tim under his official wing could act as an illusion of adoption. And even more, it would give Tim a self-less goal of shutting down Penguin so he can reunite with his family in safety.

And after Penguin's attack, Tim gets to training, goes to Paris, stuff happens, goes to Hong Kong where Sir Edmund Dorrance is getting ready to flee the country before his arrest and extradition to the UK, Tim trains with Shiva, etc.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I've said before that Penguin being the fixture villain of Tim's origin isn't a bad idea-- like how I thought that the new Lynx is a great take on Tim's Catwoman because of her more espionage and mysterious status, a scheming, devious, and careful villain like Penguin is a great counteroart to Two-Face in Jason's origin.
> 
> And it feels like the issue with Penguin could be fixed pretty simply: it's not Tim who calls down Penguin's wrath, it's his father. Either have Daddy Drake (and I'd keep Drake as the family's real name) steal money from Penguin for some reason (it could be entirely altruistic or something more prosaic like providing for Tim's education) or something else, like being a witness to Penguin's crimes. 
> 
> Boom.
> 
> Tim's not the idiot who arrogantly over-reached and got rewarded for it. He's the kid who managed to call down the Dark Knight to help his family in a time of need. And his parents could have their deaths faked (maybe Jack Drake actually got injured) and Bruce taking Tim under his official wing could act as an illusion of adoption. And even more, it would give Tim a self-less goal of shutting down Penguin so he can reunite with his family in safety.
> 
> And after Penguin's attack, Tim gets to training, goes to Paris, stuff happens, goes to Hong Kong where Sir Edmund Dorrance is getting ready to flee the country before his arrest and extradition to the UK, Tim trains with Shiva, etc.


And then comes home to find Damian has taken his place after his training is complete, with Bruce apparently dead. 'If we're still using that five year timeline thing".

----------


## godisawesome

> And then comes home to find Damian has taken his place after his training is complete, with Bruce apparently dead. 'If we're still using that five year timeline thing".


I'd just have it being:

 "And then I had more confrontations with King Snake, Jaeger, and some other guys, the kinds of confrontations that might, say, be on sale online, some other stuff happened, Bruce 'died' and I wore a cowl for a while, then, as I only recently found out, a man named Oz ruined my life by erasing some of my memories, and my good buddies Bart and Kon-"

"'Sup, spooky people."

"-thisistakingtoolongwegottagofindCassieandCissieand  SuzierememberSuzieShewasawesomebutherbrotherwasama  jorpaininmy-

"-As I was saying, Bart, Kon and I were all taken hostage by Oz. He said something about 'not iconic enough' and 'SilverAge4Life' but we got out and have now reformed Young Justice, which I understand you may not remember, but don't worry, will fix that."

Seriously though, I think you could roughly refer to most of Red Robin solo in broad stroke (Steph's role is the only major issue) and considering how much King Snake was featured leading up to the 100th issue, maybe make him and the Ghost Dragons Tim's previous arch-enemies and greatest triumph, with the Golden Dragons being their reformed remnants? You can even through in that arc with Dava and Shiva.

----------


## Dataweaver

You know the splash page in Superman Reborn where you had a collage of faces of people that Superman encountered in the Reborn timeline, surrounded by a number of snapshots of key events in this new timeline? How would you do something like that for a Reborn Tim?

----------


## godisawesome

We did something like this a few pages ago:



> Let's say that you guys were put in charge of composing a page where Tim's old history returns in some way or form, whether that's a Reborth merging of the characters, or just Tim returning and his history hitting someone like Bruce, what stuff would you guys include? What stuff would you leave out?
> 
> What I'd include:
> + an image of Tim trainings with Shiva/fighting King Snake
> + an image showing Tim talking to Batman/Nightwing in a way similar to A Lnely Place Of Dying, tying in his figuring out their identities moment
> + Tim and Nightwing surfing on the train from Chuck Dixon's old story "The Boys"
> + Tim, Kon, Cass, and Bart fighting Harm, to re-establish Young Justice
> + cowled Tim fighting his distraction fight with Ra's
> + Tim standing vigil over his father in a hospital bed, though not his funeral
> ...

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd just have it being:
> 
>  "And then I had more confrontations with King Snake, Jaeger, and some other guys, the kinds of confrontations that might, say, be on sale online, some other stuff happened, Bruce 'died' and I wore a cowl for a while, then, as I only recently found out, a man named Oz ruined my life by erasing some of my memories, and my good buddies Bart and Kon-"
> 
> "'Sup, spooky people."
> 
> "-thisistakingtoolongwegottagofindCassieandCissieand  SuzierememberSuzieShewasawesomebutherbrotherwasama  jorpaininmy-
> 
> "-As I was saying, Bart, Kon and I were all taken hostage by Oz. He said something about 'not iconic enough' and 'SilverAge4Life' but we got out and have now reformed Young Justice, which I understand you may not remember, but don't worry, will fix that."
> ...


How the missing ten years affects Cass and Steph and Helena is really what annoys me. We already have confirmation that Death of Oracle and the final arc of Birds of Prey happened, which directly implies that Batgirl the Flood happened over in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey, but both of those arcs featured people who were reintroduced significantly after the n52 started, meaning we can't handwave it like we can handwave a lot of Babs, Dinah, and Tim's adventures, because they were established when n52 started.

I want Tim's Robin series as written by Dixon to mostly have happened - but so much of that is with Steph. Similarly, I want Birds of Prey as written by Dixon and Simone to have happened. But so much of that is Helena.

All I can say is, Rebirth better have an actually good answer to this specific question.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> You know the splash page in Superman Reborn where you had a collage of faces of people that Superman encountered in the Reborn timeline, surrounded by a number of snapshots of key events in this new timeline? How would you do something like that for a Reborn Tim?




Here is the one with Steph as Robin and Batgirl. I ran out of space, so it's pretty lame  :Big Grin:

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Another great friensdship



When Tim wasn't cocky at all.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## scary harpy

Thanks again, shadowsgirl.

I adore those unused Robin costume designs. I think some of them are better than what Neal Adams designed. (I wish they had all been used.  :Frown: )

I thought they were all done by Norm Breyfogle. My mistake.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Training

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and King Snake

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Shen Chi Round 2

----------


## shadowsgirl

The next training in Paris + Shen Chi and Tim Round 3

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl

Tim and Cass

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

You know, I think Tim really does come in just behind Bruce and Cass in terms of the sheer number of people who have trained him. And it was great! Sure as Hell's better than him being an Olympic level athlete before even joining up with Bruce...

Also, two comments about the Cass scan (Because of course I have things to say there.) 1) While I really like the _Fresh Blood_ crossover overall, I find it kind of hilarious how Tim was written so much better by Gabyrch than his actual writer at the time, even within the same story. And 2) I really did like that Tim and Cass were the ones who didn't buy into the victim blaming crap DC was having everyone push. As shown here, Tim knew where the blame really lied, and expressed that, and even though Cass was more dismissive, you can clearly tell that she's just in denial and that she knows Tim is right.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks again, shadowsgirl.
> 
> I adore those unused Robin costume designs. I think some of them are better than what Neal Adams designed. (I wish they had all been used. )
> 
> I thought they were all done by Norm Breyfogle. My mistake.


I like some of those and maybe a few would have been a better looking choice for Tim. I know why a lot of superhero started to wear his underwear on the outside, but it always looked really silly to me. It had become outdated decades ago. It's an iconic look, but ugh, talk about fashion disaster.  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> You know, I think Tim really does come in just behind Bruce and Cass in terms of the sheer number of people who have trained him. And it was great! Sure as Hell's better than him being an Olympic level athlete before even joining up with Bruce...
> 
> Also, two comments about the Cass scan (Because of course I have things to say there.) 1) While I really like the _Fresh Blood_ crossover overall, I find it kind of hilarious how Tim was written so much better by Gabyrch than his actual writer at the time, even within the same story. And 2) I really did like that Tim and Cass were the ones who didn't buy into the victim blaming crap DC was having everyone push. As shown here, Tim knew where the blame really lied, and expressed that, and even though Cass was more dismissive, you can clearly tell that she's just in denial and that she knows Tim is right.


Yeah, a lot of people trained Tim. Besides the ones on the scenes, his teachers were Nightwing and Alfred, too. Then there was the army training and that one year when Bruce, Tim and Dick recreated the journey that turned Bruce into Batman. And he often practised with the Titans, too. 
Yep, Cass was always really loyal to Bruce, but still.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim is practicing a little Tai Chi on the roof. 





Um, I don't know, maybe he is trying to improve his balance.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Alfred is a savage. :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

Shouldn't Bruce be giving Tim a Maserati or something snazzier and more expensive than a lousy motor scooter?  Where's the love, dude?

----------


## darkseidpwns

I see Silver Monkey here, he's been hinted in Bane Conquest.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Shouldn't Bruce be giving Tim a Maserati or something snazzier and more expensive than a lousy motor scooter?  Where's the love, dude?


Do you have any idea how much does it cost to be Batman? Bruce always spends a lot of cash, so maybe he wanted to save some money for once. Sorry Tim. At least Tim had better vehicles later. 





From Arkham Knight

----------


## shadowsgirl

It really cost a fortune. Tim did the math for you.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> I see Silver Monkey here, he's been hinted in Bane Conquest.


Well, just like Bane, Silver Monkey was originally created by Dixon, so it's not a surprise. After Dixon left DC, they started to kill all his creations. It was really petty.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Lol, now that's funny.

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## Aioros22

> You know, I think Tim really does come in just behind Bruce and Cass in terms of the sheer number of people who have trained him. And it was great! Sure as Hell's better than him being an Olympic level athlete before even joining up with Bruce...


Curious how Dick is the one with less teachers when even the stray kid from Crime Alley had the luxury of having a number of them.

----------


## yohyoi

> Curious how Dick is the one with less teachers when even the stray kid from Crime Alley had the luxury of having a number of them.


Dick doesn't need numerous teachers. He just needed the best and luckily Batman is the best. Batman taught him everything, which is why he is the most well rounded and seen as equal to Batman.

----------


## Aioros22

> Dick doesn't need numerous teachers. He just needed the best and luckily Batman is the best. Batman taught him everything, which is why he is the most well rounded and seen as equal to Batman.


Yeah, he doesn`t need teachers that`s why he went to "better than Batman" Raptor, because he`s his equal  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yuck, I really hope we will never see this Tim ever again.

----------


## thefiresky

My buddy drew this up in poster form for me. It's lit. Thought I'd share Robin.jpg
Below it is my Robin first appearance collection

Dick Grayson (1995 reprint, i don't have 60k to buy an actual 27 lol)
Tim Drake
Tim Drake Red Robin
Nightwing
Jason Todd
Steph
Damian
Duke Thomas

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Yeah, he doesn`t need teachers that`s why he went to "better than Batman" Raptor, because he`s his equal


Dicks long history makes it complicated especially when you try to retell his origins but overall he was basically an understudy to Batman & Superman for most of his formative years so as a combination of training and exposure to other cultures that was all he needed.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Yuck, I really hope we will never see this Tim ever again.


God, what a bunch of disgraceful characters.

----------


## Assam

> God, what a bunch of disgraceful characters.


Re-posted from the Bart Allen thread: 




> https://littlemissonewhoisall.tumblr...eally-being-an
> 
> A mindset all should have.

----------


## godisawesome

> Yuck, I really hope we will never see this Tim ever again.


Weirdly enough, I kind of feel like defending the Wonder Girl arc on Teen Titans, but almost exclusively because of who wrote the dialogue to Lobdell's fairly bland story after the immediately forgettable kickoff-- Fabian Nicieza, from the Red Robin solo. I can't help but feel like he's occasionally throwing some shade at the story's concepts and characterizations by having Red Robin and Superboy mock everything about Cassie's love story and Diesel as an antagonist. Heck, even Diesel kind of makes some jokes about how ridiculous his getup and plans are under Nicieza's pen. It makes sense; Nicieza is the guy who wrote for Rob Liefeld when Deadpool appeared, so FabNic's used to compensating for subpar storytelling with just enough self-parody and humor to stave off a total failure.

Even the last issue where FabNic scripted the events and characterizations, the infamous issue where Tim and Cassie become victims of Trigon-fueled sexual assault upon one another, I was willing to give the arc a bit of a mercy period because FabNic clearly wrote Tim as off his rocker in a possession-sense and it looked like Red X was coming along as an explanation. I would have forgiven that issue a lot of faults if Lobdell's story and Nicieza's dialogue could believably create an interesting "Red Robin gains a super-powered evil side called Red X and all the **** you just read was him being manipulated into doing something bad!"

Then the arc dropped Nicieza and became an absolute _suck-fest_ of a Trigon adaptation: with Nicieza gone, any self-awareness vanished, we had a Psimon origin pop up that went nowhere, embarrassingly bad writing from Lobdell himself to accommodate crossover events and moments, and meaningless, meandering plot that ultimately just planted Raven and Beast Boy on the team in New 52 designs and had Raven still be evil, and demonstrated tone deafness by trying to play down and obfuscate the sexual assault. It was a nadir for the series...

...Until the Bar Torr storyline.

----------


## millernumber1

Fellow Tim fans - I know it's a fairly big part of Tim's character during the 100 issues of Dixon that he doesn't want to be Robin forever - but I don't recall where he tells Dick that. Or if it's even in Robin, or in Nightwing instead. Can anyone help me out?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Fellow Tim fans - I know it's a fairly big part of Tim's character during the 100 issues of Dixon that he doesn't want to be Robin forever - but I don't recall where he tells Dick that. Or if it's even in Robin, or in Nightwing instead. Can anyone help me out?


Nightwing #6

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Weirdly enough, I kind of feel like defending the Wonder Girl arc on Teen Titans, but almost exclusively because of who wrote the dialogue to Lobdell's fairly bland story after the immediately forgettable kickoff-- Fabian Nicieza, from the Red Robin solo. I can't help but feel like he's occasionally throwing some shade at the story's concepts and characterizations by having Red Robin and Superboy mock everything about Cassie's love story and Diesel as an antagonist. Heck, even Diesel kind of makes some jokes about how ridiculous his getup and plans are under Nicieza's pen. It makes sense; Nicieza is the guy who wrote for Rob Liefeld when Deadpool appeared, so FabNic's used to compensating for subpar storytelling with just enough self-parody and humor to stave off a total failure.
> 
> Even the last issue where FabNic scripted the events and characterizations, the infamous issue where Tim and Cassie become victims of Trigon-fueled sexual assault upon one another, I was willing to give the arc a bit of a mercy period because FabNic clearly wrote Tim as off his rocker in a possession-sense and it looked like Red X was coming along as an explanation. I would have forgiven that issue a lot of faults if Lobdell's story and Nicieza's dialogue could believably create an interesting "Red Robin gains a super-powered evil side called Red X and all the **** you just read was him being manipulated into doing something bad!"
> 
> Then the arc dropped Nicieza and became an absolute _suck-fest_ of a Trigon adaptation: with Nicieza gone, any self-awareness vanished, we had a Psimon origin pop up that went nowhere, embarrassingly bad writing from Lobdell himself to accommodate crossover events and moments, and meaningless, meandering plot that ultimately just planted Raven and Beast Boy on the team in New 52 designs and had Raven still be evil, and demonstrated tone deafness by trying to play down and obfuscate the sexual assault. It was a nadir for the series...
> 
> ...Until the Bar Torr storyline.


But Tim acted this way through the whole New52. Dc allowed Lobdell to turn an adorable, sweet, humble person into an arrogant, unbearable, egoistic, narcissistic jerk. Oh, and he was a serious psychopath, too.

----------


## Aioros22

> Dicks long history makes it complicated especially when you try to retell his origins but overall he was basically an understudy to Batman & Superman for most of his formative years so as a combination of training and exposure to other cultures that was all he needed.


I`m not even ragging at the number of teachers per-se, that is only relevant if said teaching is supposed to be quality but the idea that Dick only needed Bruce`s tutelage to be considered by a few as his equal will never mesh.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> But Tim acted this way through the whole New52. Dc allowed Lobdell to turn an adorable, sweet, humble person into an arrogant, unbearable, egoistic, narcissistic jerk. Oh, and he was a serious psychopath, too.


I think Damian's presence was turning Tim in to Damian 2.0 minus the awareness with which Damian is written. Tim was falling in my eyes before New 52. The whole Tim Wayne, heir of Ra's al Ghul, master of strategic planning angle was BS.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think Damian's presence was turning Tim in to Damian 2.0 minus the awareness with which Damian is written. Tim was falling in my eyes before New 52. The whole Tim Wayne, heir of Ra's al Ghul, master of strategic planning angle was BS.


How is Tim being a master strategist in regards to planning make him Damian 2.0? If anything that was something he could have picked up from Bruce.

To your other points Tim only comes off as Damian 2.0 if you take everything only at face value, where the story was headed seemed to be taking Tim back to a lighter place. Then the New-52 happened, so we'll never know how things would have turned out. Pre-52 Tim and Damian really weren't anything alike.

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing #6


I love Tim there. Nightwing #25 is also awesome. The name itself is awesome, "The Boys". I miss Tim when he started as Robin. After DC started killing everyone he loves, Tim changed to a darker and less fun hero to me. Damian beats any dark version of Tim in enjoyment.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> How is Tim being a master strategist in regards to planning make him Damian 2.0? If anything that was something he could have picked up from Bruce.
> 
> To your other points Tim only comes off as Damian 2.0 if you take everything only at face value, where the story was headed seemed to be taking Tim back to a lighter place. Then the New-52 happened, so we'll never know how things would have turned out. Pre-52 Tim and Damian really weren't anything alike.


They're all good planners but in Tim's case writers have been trying to find some quality or edge that makes him stand out and this largely has been in reaction to Damian and Jason. The New 52 stripped him of his history but the archetype of the character was still the same as it was in the years leading up to the New 52.
I'm not sure how superficial it is when you literally have Ra's declaring him his succesor and doing anything he can to get a piece of his DNA including sending someone to rape him. Thats utterly ridiculous, lazy, derivative and then add to that him going around calling himself Wayne and the pattern starts showing. You can call it Bruce 2 0, I think of it as Damian 2.0 because of the timing but most certainly its not Tim.

----------


## yohyoi

> They're all good planners but in Tim's case writers have been trying to find some quality or edge that makes him stand out and this largely has been in reaction to Damian and Jason. The New 52 stripped him of his history but the archetype of the character was still the same as it was in the years leading up to the New 52.
> I'm not sure how superficial it is when you literally have Ra's declaring him his succesor and doing anything he can to get a piece of his DNA including sending someone to rape him. Thats utterly ridiculous, lazy, derivative and then add to that him going around calling himself Wayne and the pattern starts showing. You can call it Bruce 2 0, I think of it as Damian 2.0 because of the timing but most certainly its not Tim.


Although a lot of Tim fans really love him as The Detective, I understand why DC removed it from him. Bruce is the greatest strategist and detective in the world. If Tim becomes any of those, Bruce as Batman makes no sense. It removes Batman's uniqueness and greatest ability that makes him stand beside the rest of the Justice League.

Tim should niche in technology. We really need an inventor and quartermaster in the Bat family. Tim fans would probably be angry, but it could give him a niche in the Bat family.

----------


## darkseidpwns

They've got Luke in that role and Babs as the hacker. Tim and Steph doing the same doesnt have that authencity as those two do imo.
I think Tim's salvation lies in crime noir  because thats one corner that the Bat books astonishingly dont cover right now. The downside is that genre requires considerable more effort than your standard super hero and Sci Fi.

----------


## yohyoi

It looks like Tim is in the DCEU intro as Robin. Even Geoff can't contain his preferences. He is with Batman, Batgirl and Nightwing as the pillars of the Batfamily.

Tim Robin is upper left beside Bumblebee.

----------


## Jadeb

> Tim should niche in technology. We really need an inventor and quartermaster in the Bat family. Tim fans would probably be angry, but it could give him a niche in the Bat family.


That role, though, is completely unnecessary in the Batuniverse. Batman has always had crazy gadgets and impossible technology, and we just accept that at face value. Doesn't matter where it comes from -- either it's provided by Lucius or Bruce made it or it was built by some minor character. Most of the time it's not even mentioned.

This is one of the big problems with Tim's role as chief button pusher. Most of the time, hacking is only necessary so Tim has something to do. It's a cheap way of giving him a moment.

Besides, the Bat tech is so advanced it's goofy to think that a 16-year-old kid is creating it in any meaningful fashion. We're right back to Tim's self-healing building and vast network of undergound trains.

----------


## Atlanta96

> It looks like Tim is in the DCEU intro as Robin. Even Geoff can't contain his preferences. He is with Batman, Batgirl and Nightwing as the pillars of the Batfamily.
> 
> Tim Robin is upper left beside Bumblebee.


This is the highest quality version of the intro I've seen. Where did you get it?

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> This is the highest quality version of the intro I've seen. Where did you get it?


I saw it floating around reddit. Don't know where the dude on reddit got it fro though.

----------


## yohyoi

> This is the highest quality version of the intro I've seen. Where did you get it?


DC Comics Reddit.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nightwing #6


Thanks so much!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks so much!


You're welcome!  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Smile:   :Smile: 

http://urbaneturtle.tumblr.com/post/...e-was-my-robin

----------


## yohyoi

> http://urbaneturtle.tumblr.com/post/...e-was-my-robin


I like the everyman angle. It made him different. Too bad DC killed a lot of his loved ones.

----------


## godisawesome

> Although a lot of Tim fans really love him as The Detective, I understand why DC removed it from him. Bruce is the greatest strategist and detective in the world. If Tim becomes any of those, Bruce as Batman makes no sense. It removes Batman's uniqueness and greatest ability that makes him stand beside the rest of the Justice League.
> 
> Tim should niche in technology. We really need an inventor and quartermaster in the Bat family. Tim fans would probably be angry, but it could give him a niche in the Bat family.





> They've got Luke in that role and Babs as the hacker. Tim and Steph doing the same doesnt have that authencity as those two do imo.
> I think Tim's salvation lies in crime noir  because thats one corner that the Bat books astonishingly dont cover right now. The downside is that genre requires considerable more effort than your standard super hero and Sci Fi.


The other big issue with trying to make Tim the tech and gadget guy is that, in general, that trait would be boring in comparison to highlighting strategic thinking and deduction. Look at the King Snake fight from the first Robin miniseries. Tim's victory involves an extraordinarily simple technological modification to his bo staff: a whistle. Tim made the modification because he'd realized that Lady Shiva so outmatched him that he had no chance of landing a hit on her while she was focused on him. So he experimented with a distraction, and it worked well enough to actually make Shiva a bit proud of his ingenuity. When he finally confronted King Snake, he immediately deduced how KS was using a dark room to his advantage, and modified his previous strategy; again use the bo staff's whistle as a distraction, but as a set up for a total flanking maneuver at maximum strength.

It's a clever strategy that's clearly foreshadowed, well executed for the tension of the moment, and is just the right mix of intelligence to impress the audience with a game plan simple enough to get the reader behind Tim. In contrast, look at the opening of Batman and Robin Eternal, where they focused on Tim as the tech guy; a bad guy shows up, Tim pushes some buttons, and somehow hacks the badguy's guns. That's not appealing. It's boring.

And part of the reason why guys like me will sing the praises of the Red Robin solo is it skewed heavily towards the clever portrayal of Tim from issue to issue. Yost did an excellent job, after establishing Tim's emotional headspace in the first half, of having Tim mostly just use strong logic and a little bit of pre-planning to make things work. Even the biggest tech moment, where Tim makes the LOA's computer's explode, is set up before hand and only really acts in conjunction with Tim showcasing strategic thinking in engaging multiple foes in a closed space. Nicieza's run actually had an entire set-up that amounted to dominoes; while the methods Tim used were clearly sophisticated and extraordinary, they still highlighted his cleverness, coolness under pressure, and ability to deduce an opponent's reactions. Nicieza kind of proved the comment he made about how righting Tim as someone smarter than his writer was difficult, but rewarding.

And I'd say that's the main diagnosis of the New 52 Tim Drake's portrayal: he's given the trappings of intelligence, but lacks both wisdom and perceptiveness. Pre-Flashpoint, Tim managed to work hi way out of the LOA and the Assassination tournament, and recruit Lonnie Mavhin while well aware that there was a potential for betrayal there. Post-Flashpoint, Tim lead a Titans team where at one point 3 members were villains, and was nary the wiser.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It looks like Tim is in the DCEU intro as Robin. Even Geoff can't contain his preferences. He is with Batman, Batgirl and Nightwing as the pillars of the Batfamily.
> 
> Tim Robin is upper left beside Bumblebee.


Nice, I didn't notice that.

----------


## millernumber1

> The other big issue with trying to make Tim the tech and gadget guy is that, in general, that trait would be boring in comparison to highlighting strategic thinking and deduction. Look at the King Snake fight from the first Robin miniseries. Tim's victory involves an extraordinarily simple technological modification to his bo staff: a whistle. Tim made the modification because he'd realized that Lady Shiva so outmatched him that he had no chance of landing a hit on her while she was focused on him. So he experimented with a distraction, and it worked well enough to actually make Shiva a bit proud of his ingenuity. When he finally confronted King Snake, he immediately deduced how KS was using a dark room to his advantage, and modified his previous strategy; again use the bo staff's whistle as a distraction, but as a set up for a total flanking maneuver at maximum strength.
> 
> It's a clever strategy that's clearly foreshadowed, well executed for the tension of the moment, and is just the right mix of intelligence to impress the audience with a game plan simple enough to get the reader behind Tim. In contrast, look at the opening of Batman and Robin Eternal, where they focused on Tim as the tech guy; a bad guy shows up, Tim pushes some buttons, and somehow hacks the badguy's guns. That's not appealing. It's boring.
> 
> And part of the reason why guys like me will sing the praises of the Red Robin solo is it skewed heavily towards the clever portrayal of Tim from issue to issue. Yost did an excellent job, after establishing Tim's emotional headspace in the first half, of having Tim mostly just use strong logic and a little bit of pre-planning to make things work. Even the biggest tech moment, where Tim makes the LOA's computer's explode, is set up before hand and only really acts in conjunction with Tim showcasing strategic thinking in engaging multiple foes in a closed space. Nicieza's run actually had an entire set-up that amounted to dominoes; while the methods Tim used were clearly sophisticated and extraordinary, they still highlighted his cleverness, coolness under pressure, and ability to deduce an opponent's reactions. Nicieza kind of proved the comment he made about how righting Tim as someone smarter than his writer was difficult, but rewarding.
> 
> And I'd say that's the main diagnosis of the New 52 Tim Drake's portrayal: he's given the trappings of intelligence, but lacks both wisdom and perceptiveness. Pre-Flashpoint, Tim managed to work hi way out of the LOA and the Assassination tournament, and recruit Lonnie Mavhin while well aware that there was a potential for betrayal there. Post-Flashpoint, Tim lead a Titans team where at one point 3 members were villains, and was nary the wiser.


Very important observations. I think part of the problem is that to write a character who is smarter than yourself effectively, you have to be really good at plotting. And for all that I think Snyder is a strong writer, I think his especial weakness - and the weakness of his proteges, most obviously Tynion, since he's been the most successful of his proteges - is plot. Snyder and Tynion are very good at moments, at the craft of writing dialogue and character interactions - but they're really bad at setting up and paying off elements that lead to a satisfactory conclusion. They're pretty solid at setting up and paying off thematic elements about the characters, but not about the mechanics of plots and counterplots - thus, their plots ultimately usually end up with people having to come together to punch the bad guy the best.

(I do want to say this as someone who really, really likes Tynion's Tim, all the way back to Batman Eternal, because for all the Tynion's weakness for plot does mean that Tim ends up with button fu too often, the way he writes Tim's relationships is, I think, really strong. So I don't want to appear to hate on JT4 too much - but I think it's important to notice that his plots tend to be quite weak, and that's the reason why smarter characters tend to be all flash and no substance, since true intelligence is an integral part of the plot.)

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim: I Just Wanna Be a Superhero

----------


## KrustyKid

> Very important observations. I think part of the problem is that to write a character who is smarter than yourself effectively, you have to be really good at plotting. And for all that I think Snyder is a strong writer, I think his especial weakness - and the weakness of his proteges, most obviously Tynion, since he's been the most successful of his proteges - is plot. Snyder and Tynion are very good at moments, at the craft of writing dialogue and character interactions - but they're really bad at setting up and paying off elements that lead to a satisfactory conclusion. They're pretty solid at setting up and paying off thematic elements about the characters, but not about the mechanics of plots and counterplots - thus, their plots ultimately usually end up with people having to come together to punch the bad guy the best.
> 
> (I do want to say this as someone who really, really likes Tynion's Tim, all the way back to Batman Eternal, because for all the Tynion's weakness for plot does mean that Tim ends up with button fu too often, the way he writes Tim's relationships is, I think, really strong. So I don't want to appear to hate on JT4 too much - but I think it's important to notice that his plots tend to be quite weak, and that's the reason why smarter characters tend to be all flash and no substance, since true intelligence is an integral part of the plot.)


Very good way of putting it.

----------


## oasis1313

I wish DC would look outside the Old Boys' Network and find some more writers wherever Grant Morrison came from.

----------


## Assam

Tim How.jpg

You know, a canonical explanation for how Tim pulled this off with the shadow would be hilarious.

----------


## millernumber1

> I wish DC would look outside the Old Boys' Network and find some more writers wherever Grant Morrison came from.


Isn't Morrison kind of ultimate Old Boy's Network, though?

----------


## KrustyKid

lookingon.jpg

Good ole down time

----------


## oasis1313

> Isn't Morrison kind of ultimate Old Boy's Network, though?


Morrison is a genuine STAR, whether he associates with the Old Boy Network or not.  Someone like Tynion would never even get his foot in the door if he wasn't a favorite student of Snyder, who is also a STAR, albeit a lesser one than Morrison.

----------


## Caivu

Hmmm.

Screenshot_20170705-213512.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Hmmm.
> 
> Screenshot_20170705-213512.jpg


I WANT to be optimistic...but I've got a baaaaaaaad feeling about this.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Hmmm.
> 
> Screenshot_20170705-213512.jpg


It's probably just about a new Indy comics series or his Dark Matter book. Tynion has a life aside from Tim Drake.

----------


## Assam

> It's probably just about a new Indy comics series or his Dark Matter book. Tynion has a life aside from Tim Drake.


He's been saying for awhile now that he has a secret DC book and a secret indie book in the works, so it could be either.

----------


## godisawesome

> Morrison is a genuine STAR, whether he associates with the Old Boy Network or not.  Someone like Tynion would never even get his foot in the door if he wasn't a favorite student of Snyder, who is also a STAR, albeit a lesser one than Morrison.


I actually consider the Old Boys Network to be all the failed or middling talent of the 90's at Marvel, especially in editorial who are obsessed with art over writing or gimmicks over quality, and guys like Scott Lobdell or Rob Liefeld: I'd be hard pressed to complain in any way, shape or form if FabNic, Chuck Dixon, or Paul Dini made their way back towards Tim's orbit creatively, and all three of those guys are established.

And I have to admit; If Tynion posts that he can't wait to check back on Friday, I'm far more inclined to think something mainstream is going down than indie. You'd see far more buzz from the larger and more established fandom, and it'd probably be more entertaining for Tynion if he announced even something as banal as a return of Talon, let alone Tim Drake.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tynion has a life aside from Tim Drake.


There are only 40 hours in a day :Smile: --HOWEVER can Tynion find time for ANTHING except Tim-Worship?

----------


## millernumber1

> I actually consider the Old Boys Network to be all the failed or middling talent of the 90's at Marvel, especially in editorial who are obsessed with art over writing or gimmicks over quality, and guys like Scott Lobdell or Rob Liefeld: I'd be hard pressed to complain in any way, shape or form if FabNic, Chuck Dixon, or Paul Dini made their way back towards Tim's orbit creatively, and all three of those guys are established.
> 
> And I have to admit; If Tynion posts that he can't wait to check back on Friday, I'm far more inclined to think something mainstream is going down than indie. You'd see far more buzz from the larger and more established fandom, and it'd probably be more entertaining for Tynion if he announced even something as banal as a return of Talon, let alone Tim Drake.


I just don't really think that criticizing the Old Boy's Network by using Morrison as an example make any sense.  :Smile: 

I dunno about your analysis of Tynion's tweet, though - he's tweeted a ton about indie books he's doing, particularly Backstagers, though also The Woods. I think the bigger indicator that it's DC work (since he's DC exclusive) is that he can't tell anyone till then - if it's indie, I would imagine he'd been tweeting about it already because he has control over it.




> There are only 40 hours in a day--HOWEVER can Tynion find time for ANTHING except Tim-Worship?


Ahahaha. He can! Thumbs up of other creators, talking about Cass, answering fan Qs, and tweeting about his doggo.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

Ya, it was just an announcement of Eugenic, one of his indie series. Just to let Tim fans know who might be checking the thread.

----------


## Assam

fucking tumblr.jpg

Wow, this take on the meme manages to be wrong/insulting in several ways. 

1) Implying the _Duke_ is more important than Tim. 
2) Implying that none of those other characters have been treated as less important than Tim has been as of late. (Even though things with him have been part of an actual plan) 
3) Making me look at Babsgirl. 
4) Misspelling "Pivotal."

----------


## Atlanta96

> fucking tumblr.jpg
> 
> Wow, this take on the meme manages to be wrong/insulting in several ways. 
> 
> 1) Implying the _Duke_ is more important than Tim. 
> 2) Implying that none of those other characters have been treated as less important than Tim has been as of late. (Even though things with him have been part of an actual plan) 
> 3) Making me look at Babsgirl. 
> 4) Misspelling "Pivotal."


*vomits* I objected to this meme a few days ago
IMG_0861.jpg

But if I had known about this one I would've let the Cap meme slide. What an eyesore. Sone of the blame goes to DC for keeping Tim in limbo for a while damn year and treating him like a Z-lister. But the inclusion of useless Duke, annoying Babs, and the underused former Batgirls is just infuriating. Somebody has a serious chip on their shoulder regarding Tim.

Edit: I noticed that the image file name is "f$&@ing Tumblr". The feeling is mutual.

----------


## millernumber1

That meme makes me so sad. Tim is, for all that Steph is my favorite Robin, MY Robin. He is the boy I think of when I think of Robin. And I think it's wretched that people think he's not important. Or likeable.

----------


## millernumber1

> *vomits* I objected to this meme a few days ago
> 
> But if I had known about this one I would've let the Cap meme slide. What an eyesore. Sone of the blame goes to DC for keeping Tim in limbo for a while damn year and treating him like a Z-lister. But the inclusion of useless Duke, annoying Babs, and the underused former Batgirls is just infuriating. Somebody has a serious chip on their shoulder regarding Tim.
> 
> Edit: I noticed that the image file name is "f$&@ing Tumblr". The feeling is mutual.


Well. I personally like most of those characters.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> 


Oh, come ON, Tim.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well. I personally like most of those characters.


They're all fine except for Duke.

----------


## Katana500

Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?


No.

10characters

----------


## millernumber1

> They're all fine except for Duke.


I mean, yes, that's mostly assumed.  :Wink: 




> Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?


A new identity like Actually Robin, or just Not Red Robin? I think it's super unlikely, since Lonely Place For Living is explicitly a callback to the story where Tim becomes Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> fucking tumblr.jpg
> 
> Wow, this take on the meme manages to be wrong/insulting in several ways. 
> 
> 1) Implying the _Duke_ is more important than Tim. 
> 2) Implying that none of those other characters have been treated as less important than Tim has been as of late. (Even though things with him have been part of an actual plan) 
> 3) Making me look at Babsgirl. 
> 4) Misspelling "Pivotal."


Appart from Dick, Damian and Duke, nobady really get pivotal roles. And if Tim becomes a reuglar in TEC again after his return, he would actually be in quite a good postion imo.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Attachment 51336
> 
> Wow, this take on the meme manages to be wrong/insulting in several ways. 
> 
> 1) Implying the _Duke_ is more important than Tim. 
> 2) Implying that none of those other characters have been treated as less important than Tim has been as of late. (Even though things with him have been part of an actual plan) 
> 3) Making me look at Babsgirl. 
> 4) Misspelling "Pivotal."


The "Not You" needs to be on that eyesore batgirl.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Attachment 51336


I actually laughed a little. Nothing to get mad about, someone was simply trolling us Tim fans.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?


I think he will. Just like he became Robin in A Lonely Place of Dying, I think we'll see Tim transition into a new role with this arc.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?


I honestly don't. DC don't seem to know what to do with him. I thought Tynion would be a good writer for Tim but he doubled down on the button fu and glossed over Tim and Steph getting together, which would have been an ideal time to make Tim more likable.

----------


## scary harpy

> Anyone else think Tim might get a new identity after a lonely place for living?





> I think he will. Just like he became Robin in A Lonely Place of Dying, I think we'll see Tim transition into a new role with this arc.





> I honestly don't. DC don't seem to know what to do with him. I thought Tynion would be a good writer for Tim but he doubled down on the button fu and glossed over Tim and Steph getting together, which would have been an ideal time to make Tim more likable.


I hope he does. What name would be a good fit for him?

He was the Boy Wonder for over a decade. What is uniquely his and no one else? :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> He was the Boy Wonder for over a decade. What is uniquely his and no one else?


Like always, I bring up the possibility of him becoming Mr. Sarcastic.  :Embarrassment: 

suburban wonder.jpg

Mr. Sarcastic: THE SUBURBAN LEGEND!

----------


## KrustyKid

> I hope he does. What name would be a good fit for him?
> 
> He was the Boy Wonder for over a decade. What is uniquely his and no one else?


Tim was the only one who sought out to join Bruce's crusade(while both of his parents were still alive).

Tim was the only Robin who got his own superhero car(Redbird) :Smile: 

I'm not sure those were the kind of answers you were looking for. Was there something specific you had in mind? All of the Robin's have their unique differences, even if they share some similarities.

----------


## Assam

> Tim was the only one who sought out to join Bruce's crusade(while both of his parents were still alive).
> 
> Tim was the only Robin who got his own superhero car(Redbird)
> 
> I'm not sure those were the kind of answers you were looking for. Was there something specific you had in mind? All of the Robin's have their unique differences, even if they share some similarities.


I will never understand the people who say there's nothing unique about Tim, or that he's the blandest character in the BatFam or some BS like that. (I've noticed a lot of these people actually HATE that Tim sought Bruce out, along with the "Batman needs a Robin" idea...for reason I will never understand.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Tim was the only one who sought out to join Bruce's crusade(while both of his parents were still alive).
> 
> Tim was the only Robin who got his own superhero car(Redbird)
> 
> I'm not sure those were the kind of answers you were looking for. Was there something specific you had in mind? All of the Robin's have their unique differences, even if they share some similarities.


Actually Dick Grayson did have a Robinmobile as well as received his own Batjet for his birthday. He also was the one to push to be trained by Batman who was initially reluctant after they left Haly's Circus.

----------


## Aioros22

Aaand technically, Pre Crisis Jason had a character arc where Batman is reluctant in having a new partner - since that`s something he never sough off until Dick shows up in his life - and goes after the role by proving himself to Batman and only returning to the mansion when it becomes official. This culminates in the "Chimera" storyline.

----------


## RedBird

> Aaand technically, Pre Crisis Jason had a character arc where Batman is reluctant in having a new partner - since that`s something he never sough off until Dick shows up in his life - and goes after the role by proving himself to Batman and only returning to the mansion when it becomes official. This culminates in the "Chimera" storyline.


Yeah, there is not much that is necessarily unique to only Tim, and even looking back on the most iconic and memorable story lines of the past 30 or so years there aren't many which have Tim featured in any sort of role that feels pivotal to him outside of being A Robin, strangely enough that lack of conflict within the role is why he was such a great and long lasting robin in the first place, the perfect dependable sidekick whose personal journey and growth as a character never brought upon any sort of engagement or conflict to Bruce/Batmans character outside of his own introduction, but its also why he has been marked as easily replaceable unfortunately. :/

----------


## DragonPiece

> I honestly don't. DC don't seem to know what to do with him.


I'm sure there are big plans for him, we simply don't know

----------


## scary harpy

> I'm not sure those were the kind of answers you were looking for. Was there something specific you had in mind? All of the Robin's have their unique differences, even if they share some similarities.


The something specific I had in mind was a new name for Tim. I was looking for something uniquely his for inspiration.

Otherwise, he could just become the new *Scarlet Pimpernel*...sans the red color, of course.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm sure there are big plans for him, we simply don't know


Yeah, like those big plans they had for Wally "Pacemaker" West.

Dude, come on. No one at DC cares about Tim besides Tynion, this character isn't going anywhere.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I want "Mr.Sarcastic" to be his version of Matches Malone. He uses it to infiltrate a young metahuman villian group and he uses his tech to simulate powers. For the persona he acts like a parody of Kon and whatever people think a douchy teen celebrity is.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Atlanta96

Taxi Driver.jpg

Tim does Travis Bickle.

I hate it when people say he has no sense of humor, his old series was full of moments like this.

On the Roof.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

> Actually *Dick Grayson did have a Robinmobile* as well as received his own Batjet for his birthday. He also was the one to push to be trained by Batman who was initially reluctant after they left Haly's Circus.


I completely forgot about that.

To the second point, Tim's situation is different than Dick and Jason's for the very fact Tim sought out Batman, instead of circumstances bringing them together. Without Tim's efforts of perusing Batman, Tim/Robin would not have come to be.

Another unique thing that was added near the start of Tim's career was the fact he used a bo staff as a choice weapon, and not just the text book bat gadgets we're all accustom to seeing.

Then there's also the fact Tim had to balance his school/crime fighting/and home life. That is not something any of the other Robin's had to do. Tim having to keep secrets from his dad was a big part of that.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> I completely forgot about that.
> 
> To the second point, Tim's situation is different than Dick and Jason's for the very fact Tim sought out Batman, instead of circumstances bringing them together. Without Tim's efforts of perusing Batman, Tim/Robin would not have come to be.
> 
> Another unique thing that was added near the start of Tim's career was the fact he used a bo staff as a choice weapon, and not just the text book bat gadgets we're all accustom to seeing.
> 
> Then there's also the fact Tim had to balance his school/crime fighting/and home life. That is not something any of the other Robin's had to do. Tim having to keep secrets from his dad was a big part of that.


Yes, but then both his parents were off'ed to make him an orphan, he gets adopted by Bruce and begins calling himself Tim Wayne, He starts being written as the perfect Robin, Then Damian comes in and pushes him to take a identity in Red Robin held by Dick in Kingdom Come & then Jason in another universe, then in the New 52 becomes a Tech Genius etc. Tim went from a everyman Robin who was not an orphan to a created player Robin who couldn't use the name Robin outright because Damian Wayne took and never looked back. Tim Drake should go by his name or something like Grey Ghost, have both parents and not be touted as the greatest thing in the world.

----------


## shadowsgirl

So, the Brain thinks that, too. Very creepy.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yes, but then both his parents were off'ed to make him an orphan, he gets adopted by Bruce and begins calling himself Tim Wayne, He starts being written as the perfect Robin, Then Damian comes in and pushes him to take a identity in Red Robin held by Dick in Kingdom Come & then Jason in another universe, then in the New 52 becomes a Tech Genius etc. Tim went from a everyman Robin who was not an orphan to a created player Robin who couldn't use the name Robin outright because Damian Wayne took and never looked back. Tim Drake should go by his name or something like Grey Ghost, have both parents and not be touted as the greatest thing in the world.


Sure, Tim became more like the other Robin's over time Pre-52, but even you have to admit his story was unique in comparison to the other Robin's before they started killing off his friends and family. That is the point I was making, not what happened to him over the years.

The Tim Wayne bit is irrelevant now since that is no longer canon. On the plus side Tim's parents are now both around, I'm hoping they are used to help build Tim's character going forward instead of acting as background noise like they have been since the start of the New-52.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yes, but then both his parents were off'ed to make him an orphan, he gets adopted by Bruce and begins calling himself Tim Wayne, He starts being written as the perfect Robin, Then Damian comes in and pushes him to take a identity in Red Robin held by Dick in Kingdom Come & then Jason in another universe, then in the New 52 becomes a Tech Genius etc. Tim went from a everyman Robin who was not an orphan to a created player Robin who couldn't use the name Robin outright because Damian Wayne took and never looked back. Tim Drake should go by his name or something like Grey Ghost, have both parents and not be touted as the greatest thing in the world.


Most of those changes were t exactly popular with fans, who mostly ageee now that they were detrimental to his character. The fact that they diverted from his established character so much does not change the fact that his est. character was still excellent. And by your logic, if Tim were to become more like his old self then it would help save him from redundancy.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Most of those changes were t exactly popular with fans, who mostly ageee now that they were detrimental to his character. The fact that they diverted from his established character so much does not change the fact that his est. character was still excellent. And by your logic, if Tim were to become more like his old self then it would help save him from redundancy.


Yeah, his original incarnation was good and if they can return to that in some resemblance it would be good.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Sure, Tim became more like the other Robin's over time Pre-52, but even you have to admit his story was unique in comparison to the other Robin's before they started killing off his friends and family. That is the point I was making, not what happened to him over the years.
> 
> The Tim Wayne bit is irrelevant now since that is no longer canon. On the plus side Tim's parents are now both around, I'm hoping they are used to help build Tim's character going forward instead of acting as background noise like they have been since the start of the New-52.


I wasn't criticizing I was just stating how much those changes negatively impacted him, His original story was unique and should have flowed from there.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I wasn't criticizing I was just stating how much those changes negatively impacted him, His original story was unique and should have flowed from there.


That could be said for Pre-52 Tim.

However, current Tim hit it off rough with that updated origin they gave to him. Don't get me wrong, there are some key elements I like about the new one. But overall I think it hurt the character more than it helped. They really missed the mark on who Tim is at his core.

----------


## godisawesome

> Most of those changes were t exactly popular with fans, who mostly ageee now that they were detrimental to his character. The fact that they diverted from his established character so much does not change the fact that his est. character was still excellent. And by your logic, if Tim were to become more like his old self then it would help save him from redundancy.


Ehhhh...

I really don't agree with saying that the changes weren't popular; I still think an awful lot of Tim fans really wouldn't complain if FabNic showed up at SDCC and announced he and Marcus To were going to pick up pretty much where they left off. The _events_ were unpopular; everybody saw the deaths of Jack Drake, Stephanie Brown, Dana Drake, his YJ buddies, etc, as blatant shock deaths driven by an "angst is the best!" line of thought at DC. But they kept enough good writers on Tim that he rolled through the tragedy, picked up some character development, and was a more rounded and complex character holding down a new solo at the end of it.

And while I can see and even argue that Tim's parents can and _should_ be a more unique and powerful element to his books if alive, I struggle to see their return as justifying a reboot if the character, and to be honest, I'd love the idea we had earlier in this thread that Tim gets back his memory from before, *including the deaths of his family and friends*, and responds by alternatively rejoicing in their return and desperately worrying about them dying again. See, the central problem I have with rebooting as was done in the Bat-books in the New 52 is that I think they were trying to fix what _wasn't_ broke. 

The whole "we can fix this character with a few reboots and retcons that _totally ignore elements we don't like_" is what turned the Superman comic books into a wasteland.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ehhhh...
> 
> I really don't agree with saying that the changes weren't popular; I still think an awful lot of Tim fans really wouldn't complain if FabNic showed up at SDCC and announced he and Marcus To were going to pick up pretty much where they left off. The _events_ were unpopular; everybody saw the deaths of Jack Drake, Stephanie Brown, Dana Drake, his YJ buddies, etc, as blatant shock deaths driven by an "angst is the best!" line of thought at DC. But they kept enough good writers on Tim that he rolled through the tragedy, picked up some character development, and was a more rounded and complex character holding down a new solo at the end of it.
> 
> And while I can see and even argue that Tim's parents can and _should_ be a more unique and powerful element to his books if alive, I struggle to see their return as justifying a reboot if the character, and to be honest, I'd love the idea we had earlier in this thread that Tim gets back his memory from before, *including the deaths of his family and friends*, and responds by alternatively rejoicing in their return and desperately worrying about them dying again. See, the central problem I have with rebooting as was done in the Bat-books in the New 52 is that I think they were trying to fix what _wasn't_ broke. 
> 
> The whole "we can fix this character with a few reboots and retcons that _totally ignore elements we don't like_" is what turned the Superman comic books into a wasteland.


I think you're probably right, though I'd prefer it if Chris Yost were to do with with To.  :Smile: 

The idea of Tim embracing and being really worried about his family due to returned memories is a really good one - I hope something like that happens, if the DC people are being thoughtful about Tim.

Are you talking about current Superman books, or what they were before n52?

----------


## DragonPiece

> Attachment 51336
> 
> Wow, this take on the meme manages to be wrong/insulting in several ways. 
> 
> 1) Implying the _Duke_ is more important than Tim. 
> 2) Implying that none of those other characters have been treated as less important than Tim has been as of late. (Even though things with him have been part of an actual plan) 
> 3) Making me look at Babsgirl. 
> 4) Misspelling "Pivotal."


Just saw this and gotta agree, it's really stupid

----------


## shadowsgirl

Zachary was a pompous prick, but at least he was entertaining. I hope he will return in some form with the YJ4.







Poor Raven just keeps getting younger and younger. She is now serving under the 3rd Robin. She and Beast boy are doomed.

----------


## yohyoi

Raven and Beast Boy are now serving under the 4th Robin. They are pretty much doomed a life of eternal youth and regressing character development.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Raven and Beast Boy are now serving under the 4th Robin. They are pretty much doomed a life of eternal youth and regressing character development.


No, they are serving under the 3rd Robin. Jason was never a Teen Titans leader. At least Garfield was a young adult before the reboot, but I don't know how old he is now. Raven was 16 years old before Flashpoint, so her rejuvenation began with the 2003 Teen Titans series.

----------


## yohyoi

> No, they are serving under the 3rd Robin. Jason was never a Teen Titans leader. At least Garfield was a young adult before the reboot, but I don't know how old he is now. Raven was 16 years old before Flashpoint, so her rejuvenation began with the 2003 Teen Titans series.


I'm pretty sure Damian is the 4th Robin or are we not counting Jason or Tim as Robins. The new animated movies don't, so it's not new.

----------


## Assam

> I'm pretty sure Damian is the 4th Robin or are we not counting Jason or Tim as Robins. The new animated movies don't, so it's not new.


Damian is the 5th Robin, but the 3rd Robin to lead the Teen Titans, since Jason never lead the team, and Steph never joined.

----------


## Red obin

> Damian is the 5th Robin, but the 3rd Robin to lead the Teen Titans, since Jason never lead the team, and Steph never joined.


Thank you for being the person who actually remembers Steph!

----------


## Assam

> Thank you for being the person who actually remembers Steph!


Pretty much my job when Miller isn't around.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## yohyoi

> Thank you for being the person who actually remembers Steph!


DC doesn't. The New52 erased her time as both Robin and Batgirl. Her legacy as a Robin was to make a stupid mistake then die a painful death. I don't know why people would want to remember that.

----------


## Assam

> DC doesn't. The New52 erased her time as both Robin and Batgirl. Her legacy as a Robin was to make a stupid mistake then die a painful death. I don't know why people would want to remember that.


The New52 also erased Tim's time as Robin and Cass's time as Batgirl. Along with many, MANY other things we loved.  Just because DC makes terrible decisions doesn't mean we should go along with them. 

As for why we WANT to acknowledge her as Robin: 1) She's the only canon female Robin. 2) She more than deserved the role and could have actually made a great Robin had the writers not been gunning for her. 3) and most importantly, a few of the issues where she was Robin are really, really good. 'Tec #796 is fantastic, and Batgirl #53 has the best Batgirl and Robin duo there ever was.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm pretty sure Damian is the 4th Robin or are we not counting Jason or Tim as Robins. The new animated movies don't, so it's not new.


I said they are SERVING UNDER the third Robin. From their point of view, Dick, Tim and Damian was/is their leader. Jason was never the leader of the Teen Titans, so they were never serving under him.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## RedBird

Omg, Tim truly is the 90s Robin

R A D I C A L

----------


## Assam

> Omg, Tim truly is the 90s Robin
> 
> R A D I C A L


so fucking 90's.jpg

His 90's wardrobe is also glorious.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Omg, Tim truly is the 90s Robin
> 
> R A D I C A L


There is no denying that.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason was never the leader of the Teen Titans,


IIRC Donna actually offered him the leader position when he teamed-up with the original titans.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim had some serious issues with his parents.

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Babs looks almost as old as Alfred in that panel

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Babs looks almost as old as Alfred in that panel


Yeah, her face is a little bit weird  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

I love this meme.

----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Dick's expression is priceless.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Dick's expression is priceless.


Poor Dickie-bird looks like he needs a hug.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

[IMG]https://d.*************story_parts/346175786/images/1490d58eb7e70600387647405170.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Caivu

*DETECTIVE COMICS #966*

Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art and cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE

A LONELY PLACE OF LIVING part two! Tim Drake has been locked in Mr. Ozs fortressbut now hes free and roaming the prison while his captor faces off against the Man of Steel. But is he the only prisoner whos been freed?!

On sale OCTOBER 11  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

DTC_Cv967.jpg

*DETECTIVE COMICS #967*

Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art and cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE

A LONELY PLACE OF LIVING part three! Its a race to save the future of Tim and his team as Red Robin tries to escape his prison outside of time and find his way back to Earth.

On sale OCTOBER 25  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Jadeb

I wish DC would free the real Tim Drake, and I don't mean the one in Mr. Oz's prison.

----------


## Atlanta96

So based on those solicitations, Tim's return will involve running around Oz's fortress and... more running around Oz's fortress. Could they have provided just one bit of info to get us excited for this?

Any theories about this upcoming arc you guys want to discuss, or have we been over everything already?




> I wish DC would free the real Tim Drake, and I don't mean the one in Mr. Oz's prison.


Tynion seems to have an unfortunate interest in New 52 Tim. I think it's because A) He started writing for DC during the New 52, and therefore has a fondness for that era. B) Many of his friends at DC were part of the New 52 Bat-books and support the work done during that era as well. C) His first chance to write his favorite character Tim was his New 52 version.

For those reasons, I worry about the future of Tim Drake, and whether we'll ever see him like his old self again.

----------


## Assam

> So based on those solicitations, Tim's return will involve running around Oz's fortress and... more running around Oz's fortress. Could they have provided just one bit of info to get us excited for this?
> 
> Any theories about this upcoming arc you guys want to discuss, or have we been over everything already?


I'm going to try and be optimistic and think that since they vaguely say "His team", that while they could be talking about the 'Tec team ,they're actually talking about the YJ4. If NuKon, NuCassie and Bar Torr could show up as Oz's henchmen for the real versions of the characters to plow through, that'd be great. 

I also really hope we don't have to put up with Future's End Tim. 

Oh, and I agree with Jadeb. It be nice if the REAL Tim Drake could come back.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm going to try and be optimistic and think that since they vaguely say "His team", that while they could be talking about the 'Tec team ,they're actually talking about the YJ4. If NuKon, NuCassie and Bar Torr could show up as Oz's henchmen for the real versions of the characters to plow through, that'd be great. 
> 
> I also really hope we don't have to put up with Future's End Tim. 
> 
> Oh, and I agree with Jadeb. It be nice if the REAL Tim Drake could come back.


I think the Team in question is going to be Doomsday and the other characters Oz has abducted, which probably doesn't include any other YJ4 characters.

----------


## Frontier

> *DETECTIVE COMICS #966*
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art and cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> 
> “A LONELY PLACE OF LIVING” part two! Tim Drake has been locked in Mr. Oz’s fortress—but now he’s free and roaming the prison while his captor faces off against the Man of Steel. But is he the only prisoner who’s been freed?!
> 
> On sale OCTOBER 11 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> ...


Huh. I wonder what they mean by "his team."

Other prisoners of Oz or the 'Tec team? 

I'm also guessing this is coinciding with the _Action_ arc where Superman learns Oz' identity.

----------


## Assam

> I think the Team in question is going to be Doomsday and the other characters Oz has abducted, which probably doesn't include any other YJ4 characters.


Well that'd just suck  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

I wonder what the meaning behind the figure pointing the gun at Tim means? It looks like Batman's gauntlets, but without the edges.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I wonder what the meaning behind the figure pointing the gun at Tim means? It looks like Batman's gauntlets, but without the edges.


Perhaps it is symbolic for something deeper?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Perhaps it is symbolic for something deeper?


Like the Bat-editorial team choking the life out of this character?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Like the Bat-editorial team choking the life out of this character?


Lol, you just had to go there

----------


## Jadeb

> Like the Bat-editorial team choking the life out of this character?


Post of the day!

----------


## Aahz

> I wonder what the meaning behind the figure pointing the gun at Tim means? It looks like Batman's gauntlets, but without the edges.


Maybe it's Thomas.

----------


## godisawesome

The fact that all three summaries go out of their way to establish that there are other people whose fate is on the line during ALPOL, with two of the issues specifically citing the idea of other escaped prisoners, heavily implies that Tim's "team" here involves non-standard TEC members. Add in the way the summaries also imply Tim is still trapped in the prison through all three comics with the way that they've deliberately pushed back against their initial "Bruce knows Tim's alive" idea, and it feels like this is his adventure, and _someone_ is following him out of prison eventually.

It really feels like they have to have some major changes coming along with him in his escape, just because of all the resources tied up in this convuluted story. You wouldn't have a character's death faked by a badguy intrinsically linked to timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly shenanigans, and give him an (at minimum) 3 part escape storyline unless you were going to do something "Rebirth-y" with him.

----------


## Red obin

> *DETECTIVE COMICS #966*
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art and cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> Variant cover by RAFAEL ALBUQUERQUE
> 
> A LONELY PLACE OF LIVING part two! Tim Drake has been locked in Mr. Ozs fortressbut now hes free and roaming the prison while his captor faces off against the Man of Steel. But is he the only prisoner whos been freed?!
> 
> On sale OCTOBER 11  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T
> ...


I'm really looking forward this arc more and more now.

----------


## Vinsanity

> I'm really looking forward this arc more and more now.


It does sound interesting but I feel like we are going to end up in a rut with Tim Drake. They should put him in a different country like just a time away from the norms.

----------


## Katana500

> Maybe it's Thomas.


That would be pretty awesome! If it was

----------


## Red obin

> It does sound interesting but I feel like we are going to end up in a rut with Tim Drake. They should put him in a different country like just a time away from the norms.


As a Brit, I would like to see superheroes who are not just stereotypes ( As much as I love them, I am talking about Knight and Squire).I know Wonder Woman was there for a while but steph bgirl #22 makes me think street level heroes would work well. Maybe Tim goes to university on that Scholarship in Britain and works part time RR or something new.

----------


## Jadeb

> As a Brit, I would like to see superheroes who are not just stereotypes ( As much as I love them, I am talking about Knight and Squire).I know Wonder Woman was there for a while but steph bgirl #22 makes me think street level heroes would work well. Maybe Tim goes to university on that Scholarship in Britain and works part time RR or something new.


I'd love that. Be nice to see him as a student again, and the unfamiliar setting would serve him well. (Less opportunity to have built vast networks of underground trains and nonsense like that -- he'd have to get by on his wits.) He could visit Europe too. I really enjoyed the travelogue aspect of the Europa mini, and it would be cool to see him explore new settings.

----------


## Atlanta96

Turning Tim into a globetrotting hero would probably get him labeled a Grayson ripoff, just as sending him to university would make him a Batgirl ripoff...

New 52 really deprived Tim of good character development, anything he does will probably feel like mimicking another Bat-character now.

----------


## adrikito

I heard about this in NEWSARAMA... I see one image with one Bat with a gun... Thomas Wayne again?  :Confused:

----------


## Dataweaver

I'm still hoping that Tim's team in _A Lonely Place of Living_ turns out to be versions of Kon-El and Bart Allen who are more in line with their pre-Flashpoint versions than the N52 Superboy and Kid Flash were. That said, I think it's more likely that his team will be connected to the soon-to-return JSA and LoSH.

----------


## Red obin

> Turning Tim into a globetrotting hero would probably get him labeled a Grayson ripoff, just as sending him to university would make him a Batgirl ripoff...
> 
> New 52 really deprived Tim of good character development, anything he does will probably feel like mimicking another Bat-character now.


I slightly agree on the grayson bit(keep him in one place instead), but I don't think batgirl has to be the only bat family member in university.

----------


## James Hunter

> I'm still hoping that Tim's team in _A Lonely Place of Living_ turns out to be versions of Kon-El and Bart Allen who are more in line with their pre-Flashpoint versions than the N52 Superboy and Kid Flash were. That said, I think it's more likely that his team will be connected to the soon-to-return JSA and LoSH


That *would* be cool but may be a bit much to hope for.  I could see it being the real Bart Allen though (with what is going on in THE FLASH) and I'll take whatever I can get  :Smile: 


Cheers.

James.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I slightly agree on the grayson bit(keep him in one place instead), but I don't think batgirl has to be the only bat family member in university.


She doesn't, and she shouldn't. But that won't stop people from calling a college based Tim Drake a Burnside ripoff.

----------


## KrustyKid

> She doesn't, and she shouldn't. But that won't stop people from calling a college based Tim Drake a Burnside ripoff.


How would it be a ripoff if Tim pretty much did that already for a period Pre-52?

----------


## Atlanta96

> How would it be a ripoff if Tim pretty much did that already for a period Pre-52?


It wouldn't be. But Tim has been irrelevant and lacking direction for so long that almost anything done with him will be perceived as ripping off another Bat-character at this point.

----------


## Atlanta96

I think I've said something like this already, but I hate how they kept Tim in limbo for the Metal event, even as there's an important storyline called Gotham Resistance featuring Dick, Damian, Harley Quinn, and sh*tty Batgirl but no Tim. This is why his year long stint in limbo was such a bogus move, he's missed out on so much and now looks like the most useless and un-loved member of the Bat-Family. While his allies are working as a team saving the world from a major threat in the biggest event of Rebirth, Tim is still rotting in his jail cell.

I also hate how Wally and the Titans seem to have nothing to do with this event, but that's off topic.

----------


## Jadeb

At this point, Tim has enough detractors that anything they do with him will be criticized. But the bottom line is that he's still around because he can still sell books. The best thing they can do is tell good stories with him. The rest will sort itself out.

----------


## Atlanta96

> At this point, Tim has enough detractors that anything they do with him will be criticized. But the bottom line is that he's still around because he can still sell books. The best thing they can do is tell good stories with him. The rest will sort itself out.


I don't consider a year in limbo bookended by mediocre team book appearances to be "still around".

----------


## Assam

> I don't consider a year in limbo bookended by mediocre team book appearances to be "still around".


The many, MANY characters who either have spent a much longer time in limbo and currently are in limbo would beg to disagree. 

Don't get me wrong, aside from the Red Robin solo, I don't think Tim has been treated consistently right since _Young Justice_ ended. But even so, things could be MUCH worse for him and still are for many others.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The many, MANY characters who either have spent a much longer time in limbo and currently are in limbo would beg to disagree. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, aside from the Red Robin solo, I don't think Tim has been treated consistently right since _Young Justice_ ended. But even so, things could be MUCH worse for him and still are for many others.


I agree with this completely.

----------


## Atlanta96

> The many, MANY characters who either have spent a much longer time in limbo and currently are in limbo would beg to disagree. 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, aside from the Red Robin solo, I don't think Tim has been treated consistently right since _Young Justice_ ended. But even so, things could be MUCH worse for him and still are for many others.


DC has set the bar so low, does being treated comparative better than a few characters even make a difference?

----------


## Jadeb

> I don't consider a year in limbo bookended by mediocre team book appearances to be "still around".


Part of Tim's problems is that DC still thinks he's an easy way to sell books. He's been foist into title after title, usually with little consideration for whether it's a good use of the character. They could have erased him in the reboot, but they didn't. They don't seem to care about him as a character, but he's too valuable to eliminate. So he's still around, just used poorly.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Part of Tim's problems is that DC still thinks he's an easy way to sell books. He's been foist into title after title, usually with little consideration for whether it's a good use of the character. They could have erased him in the reboot, but they didn't. They don't seem to care about him as a character, but he's too valuable to eliminate. So he's still around, just used poorly.


If they kept him around because they thought he could sell books, I don't think they'd have sent him to limbo for a year. I don't think they see much financial value in this character at all, if they did they'd probably have done more with him than just team books.

----------


## KrustyKid

> If they kept him around because they thought he could sell books, I don't think they'd have sent him to limbo for a year. I don't think they see much financial value in this character at all, if they did they'd probably have done more with him than just team books.


I believe their whole thought process was putting Tim in TT to help sales with that book. The problem was his whole characterization was off. Tim might not be the most important at DC, but I believe he is a character DC still cares for, or else they would have offed him permanently. I'm cautiously optimistic.

----------


## Jadeb

> If they kept him around because they thought he could sell books, I don't think they'd have sent him to limbo for a year. I don't think they see much financial value in this character at all, if they did they'd probably have done more with him than just team books.


I think they sent him to limbo specifically because he's still a "name" character, but one who wouldn't be terribly missed. Also, he needed time for the recent stink to wear off. But unlike characters who have truly been abandoned, he'll be back in a book, or books, soon enough. At this point, I can't say that for, say, Bart or Connor.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I think they sent him to limbo specifically because he's still a "name" character, but one who wouldn't be terribly missed. Also, he needed time for the recent stink to wear off. But unlike characters who have truly been abandoned, he'll be back in a book, or books, soon enough. At this point, I can't say that for, say, Bart or Connor.


Geoff Johns loves Conner, so he'll probably be back in some form eventually. Bart's fate is a bit more ambiguous, I think Josh Williamson wants him back but editorial might not let him. At the very least, a YJ4 reunion seems unlikely. I don't even think Tim will get his old origin back, I don't know why they took him off the grid for so long but restoring his old history also seems unlikely.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Geoff Johns loves Conner, so he'll probably be back in some form eventually. Bart's fate is a bit more ambiguous, I think Josh Williamson wants him back but editorial might not let him. At the very least, a YJ4 reunion seems unlikely. I don't even think Tim will get his old origin back, *I don't know why they took him off the grid for so long* but restoring his old history also seems unlikely.


We should know for sure in time.

----------


## Atlanta96

> We should know for sure in time.


And no explanation could possibly excuse what they've done.

----------


## KrustyKid

> And no explanation could possibly excuse what they've done.


This has less to do with what has been done to Tim in the past five years, and more to do with Tim stemming from rebirth through his trip in limbo. I just hope there is a good reason for why he was taken off the table for this long. Hopefully whatever happens to him in that cell gives him a new direction.

----------


## Dataweaver

Given that the name of the story arc is a riff on the story arc that first introduced Tim, I suspect that's what they're going for.

----------


## Atlanta96

> This has less to do with what has been done to Tim in the past five years, and more to do with Tim stemming from rebirth through his trip in limbo. I just hope there is a good reason for why he was taken off the table for this long. Hopefully whatever happens to him in that cell gives him a new direction.


What possible explanation could justify keeping him in limbo for a year throughout numerous storylines crossovers and events that could have been used to develop him? Why didn't they schedule whatever is happening to Tim in a way that didn't deprive him of the little relevance he had left? His detractors are loving what's been done with him, he's gotten almost no development out of Rebirth, his role in the DCU has been nerfed, so I'm not going to get excited over anything regarding Tim right now.

----------


## KrustyKid

> What possible explanation could justify keeping him in limbo for a year throughout numerous storylines crossovers and events that could have been used to develop him? Why didn't they schedule whatever is happening to Tim in a way that didn't deprive him of the little relevance he had left? His detractors are loving what's been done with him, he's gotten almost no development out of Rebirth, his role in the DCU has been nerfed, so I'm not going to get excited over anything regarding Tim right now.


I think Tim was kept in limbo for as long as he has been because his story will be directly linked to the big Rebirth storyline. So it makes sense that Tim was in limbo as long as he has.

----------


## oasis1313

You can't just leave him there for a month, then reintroduce him as one of the New Gods.  Gotta do some build-up.

----------


## KrustyKid

Throwback time,

new_robin___timdrake__young_justice_style_by_dark_bub-dbf5lvj.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Manda-Panda

> 


I love the Red Robin outfit so much when it does not have the hood

----------


## scary harpy

> 


Beautiful. 10 characters.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

It's July 19, so Happy Birthday Tim!

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

I love just about everything in these scenes, minus the obvious thing missing for me. This is Tim, Bruce and Alfred at their best. (Yes, the actual reveal of the cube  was pretty bad, but these bits are still great)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I love just about everything in these scenes, minus the obvious thing missing for me. This is Tim, Bruce and Alfred at their best. (Yes, the actual reveal of the cube  was pretty bad, but these bits are still great)


Yeah, it's sad Cass wasn't there.  :Frown:  I really miss these Bat-family scenes, after the reboot the characters hardly interact with each other anymore.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, it's sad Cass wasn't there.  I really miss these Bat-family scenes, after the reboot the characters hardly interact with each other anymore.


They were established as friends at this point so it is rather bothersome. Although, later in this storyline, we did get the delightful issue where Cass trolled the Hell out of Tim as he suspected she was the traitor, so its not like the writer was against using her. 

And I definitely agree with your sentiment. Modern DC, and especially the Batverse, could desperately use more character interaction and civilian lives. It's almost sad when you think about how we all reacted to 'Tec #958. We were all so excited about JPV, Luke and Kate at the basketball game and Cass and Basil doing Shakespeare...when we used to get stuff like that on a monthly basis.

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim/Steph

tss.jpg

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Tim/Steph
> 
> tss.jpg


This board needs Like buttons  :Smile:

----------


## Dataweaver

I've been saying that for years!

Too many Rs soon the chest. Otherwise, love it!

----------


## Assam

Really sweet piece drawn for the birthday boy. 

tim and damian.jpg

----------


## Assam

a while.jpg

10char

----------


## Magmaster12

I really miss Ives he was a cool character but constantly forgotten.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I really miss Ives he was a cool character but constantly forgotten.


Dixon is writing for DC again, so maybe he will be the one who will write the new Red Robin series. If that's the case, I'm pretty sure he will bring back Ives, and maybe Callie and Hudman, too. Tim's whole history is missing currently, so who knows what's going to happen. If frickin Duke can get a solo series, there is no way in hell Tim won't get one.

----------


## Assam

> If frickin Duke can get a solo series, there is no way in hell Tim won't get one.


You make it sound like DC uses any actual logic in determining who gets solo books. Or really, logic in _any_ of their decisions.

----------


## scary harpy

> I really miss Ives he was a cool character but constantly forgotten.





> Dixon is writing for DC again, so maybe he will be the one who will write the new Red Robin series. If that's the case, I'm pretty sure he will bring back Ives, and maybe Callie and Hudman, too. Tim's whole history is missing currently, so who knows what's going to happen. If frickin Duke can get a solo series, there is no way in hell Tim won't get one.


I liked Ives too.

I missed the news about Dixon. I hope this is good.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> You make it sound like DC uses any actual logic in determining who gets solo books. Or really, logic in _any_ of their decisions.


They are a bunch of morons, but not that stupid. Tim can sell, so he will have a solo series. I'm 100% sure. Steph and Cass are popular too, but the hatred toward them is too strong. At least Didio and the rest of them don't hate Tim. They screwed him up badly in the New52, and they know that. They want to fix him, just maybe not Tynion is the right guy for that task. We need Dixon, Yost or Nicieza.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This board needs Like buttons


I've felt this way so many times.

----------


## Atlanta96

From an interview with Tom King about an upcoming Batman story.

Robins.jpg

This is probably the most reassuring thing I've read regarding Tim in years, even if it's probably just for a brief appearance.

----------


## Assam

So Tim will be back by the start of that arc? Good to hear. Still not remotely interested in this story, but good to hear! 

Gotta wonder though. If when he comes back his main home is on the 'Tec team, will he be taking someone's spot?

----------


## Alycat

> So Tim will be back by the start of that arc? Good to hear. Still not remotely interested in this story, but good to hear! 
> 
> Gotta wonder though. If when he comes back his main home is on the 'Tec team, will he be taking someone's spot?


Is there a need to replace anyone? adding Tim back and if Steph is still gone it still seems balanced.

----------


## Assam

> Is there a need to replace anyone? adding Tim back and if Steph is still gone it still seems balanced.


That still leaves us with a 7 person team. Fine in theory, but because of how the book is structured, with Bruce and Kate (And probably Tim once he's back) as the "leads", the battle for panel time would be even harsher for the other 4 than it already is.

----------


## Alycat

> That still leaves us with a 7 person team. Fine in theory, but because of how the book is structured, with Bruce and Kate (And probably Tim once he's back) as the "leads", the battle for panel time would be even harsher for the other 4 than it already is.


Good point. I still stand by my initial opinion that Tim doesn't need this team or to share leadership with Kate. I'm hoping for a YJ reunion.

----------


## Atlanta96

> So Tim will be back by the start of that arc? Good to hear. Still not remotely interested in this story, but good to hear! 
> 
> Gotta wonder though. If when he comes back his main home is on the 'Tec team, will he be taking someone's spot?


Probably Luke Fox since they're both the tech guy of the team. Best case scenario, Tim will no longer be a tech guy after his return. But that's unlikely.

----------


## Assam

> Good point. I still stand by my initial opinion that Tim doesn't need this team or to share leadership with Kate. I'm hoping for a YJ reunion.


Either a YJ reunion or a 90's Batkid book would be optimal.

----------


## Assam

> Probably Luke Fox since they're both the tech guy of the team. Best case scenario, Tim will no longer be a tech guy after his return. But that's unlikely.


Hopefully Tim won't be techman anymore and hopefully Luke isn't going anywhere. For the latter, well, not a very good thing to get rid of the only black guy on the team, and I also think he's been a highly enjoyable presence.  Plus, along with Basil who Tynion clearly has a full story planned out for, Luke and JPV are the only ones with _nowhere_ to go without 'Tec, since their chances of getting books (And more importantly, books that sell well) are even lower than the 90's kids.

----------


## yohyoi

New Tim Robin redesign (and others) for the upcoming Young Justice season 3.

----------


## Vic Vega

> Probably Luke Fox since they're both the tech guy of the team. Best case scenario, Tim will no longer be a tech guy after his return. But that's unlikely.


Ideally, he'd be the strategy guy, the Mr. Phelps of the team(the TV show Mr. Phelps I mean, not the Tom Cruise version).

Bats would say "do X" and its Tim's job to figure out the "how".  

Or given that Young Justice is coming back to Netflix, DC might relaunch the Young Justice comic and make the 'Tec book a non-issue.

I can hope.

----------


## josai21

> New Tim Robin redesign (and others) for the upcoming Young Justice season 3.


That better not be Damian

----------


## yohyoi

> That better not be Damian


It's not. Tim is borrowing Damian's costume, the same way Dick borrowed Tim's costume. It's like an alternative universe hand-me-downs.

----------


## DragonPiece

> From an interview with Tom King about an upcoming Batman story.
> 
> Attachment 51825
> 
> This is probably the most reassuring thing I've read regarding Tim in years, even if it's probably just for a brief appearance.


Oh yeah, that definitely confirms Tim is back. This is gonna be a good arc

----------


## Vic Vega

> That better not be Damian


In the pic he's being nice to Bart.

That's not Damien.

If there's another time-skip he may show up.

----------


## Red obin

Tim just coming back to find out Bruce proposed to Catwoman will be fun.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim just coming back to find out Bruce proposed to Catwoman will be fun.


Should make for an interesting one.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Oh yeah, that definitely confirms Tim is back. This is gonna be a good arc


It's still a Tom King Batman arc, don't get your hopes up.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's still a Tom King Batman arc, don't get your hopes up.


Maybe it will be Batman's turn to one shot Tim :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## rev516

Or Maybe it will be time to see Nightwing beat Bruce's beat behind, according to Tom King! (His VERY wrong ranking of top fighters in the Bat Fam. Cass at number one is a given, but Dick over Bruce? boi)

----------


## KrustyKid

> Or Maybe it will be time to see Nightwing beat Bruce's beat behind, according to Tom King! (His VERY wrong ranking of top fighters in the Bat Fam. Cass at number one is a given, but Dick over Bruce? boi)


I almost forgot about that. Maybe that will fall into play in the upcoming arc, lol

----------


## rev516

I'll be bracing myself for the cringe

But Timmy boy is coming back! I missed him.

----------


## KrustyKid

Yep, it will be nice having Tim back.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yep, it will be nice having Tim back.


It would be even nicer if they didn't feel the need to lock him up for a year before their big Tim story.

----------


## rev516

That too ^

----------


## KrustyKid

> It would be even nicer if they didn't feel the need to lock him up for a year before their big Tim story.


If it ties into the main Rebirth story it might have been necessary.

----------


## Atlanta96

> If it ties into the main Rebirth story it might have been necessary.


No it isn't. No reason he couldn't at least have been in 'Tec for longer than 6 issues before limbo. Name 1 thing that could justify the length of time he was absent.

----------


## Assam

> No it isn't. No reason he couldn't at least have been in 'Tec for longer than 6 issues before limbo. Name 1 thing that could justify the length of time he was absent.


The ONLY way they could justify it (And even then it'd be flimsy) is if they pulled an Endless 8 (God I hope someone understands this reference), using the audience's frustration over how long something is going on as a method to make them understand what the character has been going through.

----------


## KrustyKid

> No it isn't. No reason he couldn't at least have been in 'Tec for longer than 6 issues before limbo. Name 1 thing that could justify the length of time he was absent.


I'd need to know what the main Rebirth story is about to accurately answer. As it stands now Tim's extended absence does feel really unnecessary. But maybe there is a good reason for why, one we may have to wait to hear.

----------


## KrustyKid

young-justice-outsiders.jpg

So what does everyone overall think of Tim's new YJ design? And do you think he'll have a more prominent role this upcoming season?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> young-justice-outsiders.jpg
> 
> So what does everyone overall think of Tim's new YJ design? And do you think he'll have a more prominent role this upcoming season?


I don't like the hood. I love the original Red Robin costume, but this screams for Damian. Bart's costume is really ugly. They re-used the Judas Contract designs for Robin and Kid Flash. LAME.

----------


## Assam

Apparently, Tim'd storyline is going to involve a love triangle with two blonde white girls voiced by the same VA. 

Not excited.

----------


## Frontier

> young-justice-outsiders.jpg
> 
> So what does everyone overall think of Tim's new YJ design? And do you think he'll have a more prominent role this upcoming season?


It's always weird when they give Tim a hood because that's usually Damian's thing, but it's an overall nice design in my opinion. I'm just glad he's still Robin  :Embarrassment: .

I also think he's probably going to be leading the Team now since it seems like the original team are all doing more in-depth Black Ops work. 

I'm curious to see, relationship-wise, what they'll do with him and Steph now that they're on the team together. Especially if he might still be dating Cassie.




> Apparently, Tim'd storyline is going to involve a love triangle with two blonde white girls voiced by the same VA. 
> 
> Not excited.


I wouldn't be surprised if they recast Steph so Mae Whitman won't have to voice two characters on the Team.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's always weird when they give Tim a hood because that's usually Damian's thing, but it's an overall nice design in my opinion. I'm just glad he's still Robin .
> 
> I also think he's probably going to be leading the Team now since it seems like the original team are all doing more in-depth Black Ops work. 
> 
> I'm curious to see, relationship-wise, what they'll do with him and Steph now that they're on the team together. Especially if he might still be dating Cassie.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if they recast Steph so Mae Whitman won't have to voice two characters on the Team.


You're right. I pretty much associate the hood with Damian, fits his character very well. No doubt the Tim/Cassie/Steph dynamic will be explored in some way.

----------


## Atlanta96

> young-justice-outsiders.jpg
> 
> So what does everyone overall think of Tim's new YJ design? And do you think he'll have a more prominent role this upcoming season?


I don't like the design and I doubt he'll have a prominent role in the season because everyone outside of comics hates Tim Drake.

----------


## darkseidpwns

They'll give him a love triangle,that will be his arc.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't like the design and I doubt he'll have a prominent role in the season because everyone outside of comics hates Tim Drake.


I don't think Greg Weisman does...

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't think Greg Weisman does...


He barely used him in YJ season 2 so maybe he does.

----------


## Frontier

> He barely used him in YJ season 2 so maybe he does.


He barely used a lot of characters in season 2. 

I doubt that was out of personal dislike and more to do with serving the story they wanted to tell and still focusing on the original team. Which we might see less of this season since they're still keeping the season 2 team relatively intact.

----------


## KrustyKid

> He barely used a lot of characters in season 2. 
> 
> I doubt that was out of personal dislike and more to do with serving the story they wanted to tell and still focusing on the original team. Which we might see less of this season since they're still keeping the season 2 team relatively intact.


I agree with this. There were several characters whose roles left a lot to be desired. I believe we'll see more of Tim this time around, especially if he has any kind of leadership role which is a safe prediction.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree with this. There were several characters whose roles left a lot to be desired. I believe we'll see more of Tim this time around, especially if he has any kind of leadership role which is a safe prediction.


I think the fact that we have Tim, Cassie, and other season 2 characters carrying over means they'll get more of a spotlight this time.

----------


## KrustyKid

Pretty much. I see it the same way

----------


## fanfan13

Eh why the hoodie? I don't like Tim wearing a hoodie, 'cause that's Damian thing. I already see a few people mistaking that robin as Damian because of it.

----------


## DragonPiece

> They'll give him a love triangle,that will be his arc.


yep, that's all i expect. not that I mind, I wanna see tim and steph in animation

----------


## CPSparkles

Not a fan of Tim taking Damian's hood but glad to see that he will be getting increased focus this season. 
Is it too much to ask that outside media just give us an actual Tim Drake representation without elements of other robins. I hope they use his name a lot so fans know which Robin this is.

Steph was a welcome surprise as is Static's updated look.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Not a fan of Tim taking Damian's hood but glad to see that he will be getting increased focus this season. 
> Is it too much to ask that outside media just give us an actual Tim Drake representation without elements of other robins. I hope they use his name a lot so fans know which Robin this is.
> 
> Steph was a welcome surprise as is Static's updated look.


That seems to happen quite often with the animation stuff when it comes to the Robin's, especially involving their appearances. Tim using Damian's hood here, we've also had Dick use Tim's suit and staff, Jason also had Tim's OYL Robin outfit in UTH. These boys just can't stop borrowing from each others wardrobes, lol

----------


## Rac7d*

So where will tim be taking residence this falll when he returns

their not gonna waste his animated promotion and not bring him back

----------


## Aioros22

> That seems to happen quite often with the animation stuff when it comes to the Robin's, especially involving their appearances. Tim using Damian's hood here, we've also had Dick use Tim's suit and staff, Jason also had Tim's OYL Robin outfit in UTH. These boys just can't stop borrowing from each others wardrobes, lol


Tim getting the green pants from Pre Crisis Jay  :Big Grin:  they all probably share the same wardrobe cabinet in the mansion "today I`ma wearing this!"

Jason and Tim can use the red suit, tho. TAS Robin was Jason with Tim`s name, that`s basically it. Barely no Tim in that character.

----------


## Red obin

How is terrifics a book yet we don't have a solo Tim book announced! It is not even as though we have a damian robin book out currently!

----------


## Aahz

> Tim getting the green pants from Pre Crisis Jay  they all probably share the same wardrobe cabinet in the mansion "today I`ma wearing this!"


It seems for me anyway that the writers actually wanted to chnage the Robin costumes since the 70s but really inly went through with it with Tim.

Here that for example from Justioce League of America #92 from (1971), in this issues the Earth One Dick got this new szuit from the Earth 2 Dick after his own costume was destroyed, they later reused the design for the Earth 2 Dick (who was wearin g the Grey costume before), but it seems like they originally wanted to use it for the Earth One Dick.

Justice League of America V1 #92 (1971).jpg

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Assam

> 


I know some people avoid Tumblr like the plague, but you should all really check out this artist, KaylaBeeMarie. All of their recent work is just the 5 BatBrats de-aged and adorable, and it's all this high quality.

----------


## KrustyKid

> 


I really like that

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


LOL, Damian though

----------


## Vinsanity

I like the YJ look. Suits the tone of the series. 

Tim did get a shaft in YJ 2 but they had too many characters than they should have. However he did get more of a role than several characters. Not a fan of the love triangle thing but w/e

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## oasis1313

I was hoping Tim could get a better identity than "Red Robin."

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I thought Tim only received the hood to match Steph. Ninja couple.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I thought Tim only received the hood to match Steph. Ninja couple.


Now that would be an unexpected reason, lol

----------


## Frontier

> I thought Tim only received the hood to match Steph. Ninja couple.


I didn't notice this. I like it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## CPSparkles

No no stop it that's a stupid reason to take away a very distinct aspect of another character especially since neither are ninjas

----------


## RedBird

> That seems to happen quite often with the animation stuff when it comes to the Robin's, especially involving their appearances. Tim using Damian's hood here, we've also had Dick use Tim's suit and staff, Jason also had Tim's OYL Robin outfit in UTH. These boys just can't stop borrowing from each others wardrobes, lol


Yeah they kinda mix and match, and honestly its not the first time we've seen an iteration of Tim with the hoodie anyway. Arkham series anyone?

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yeah they kinda mix and match, and honestly its not the first time we've seen an iteration of Tim with the hoodie anyway. Arkham series anyone?


Arkham shouldn't have borrowed it either.


Previous Robins mixed and matched but Damian kept his look. Dick and Jason fans never tried to claim ownership of the borrowed items as Tim's fans are currently doing online. I checked out some Youtube videos and the comments sections are indeed littered with Tim fans claiming Tim had it 1st or that it was his signature look in Red Robin but they gave it to Damian to make him look cool. ??????????

That is just rude.

The Hood is a key part of Damian. It set's him apart, reflects his LOA background. I remember the scene when Dick try's to get him to lose it because it hinders the vision [ funnily enough a real recurring complaint from gamers concerning when Tim borrowed it 1st around]Damian then  showed he could fight blind and Dick let him keep it. 

Ugh Give it back YJ. Tim can have a cowl if he must keep his head covered.

I can't believe some are already trying to claim it. How can they even claim that and why are they doing that when they know it's a lie.
I hate this what was wrong with how he looked.

Why do creators insist on altering Outside Tim/ Robins? That was a cool thing about Damian. Robins swap clothes but you could always tell Damian from the rest even in silhouette now we are going to have another "was the Robin in the TT cartoon Dick or Tim?" situation except this time it's about wardrobe.

Also when outside media borrowed stuff for Dick and Jason it was more to reflect the times e.g using computers or to match the current comics neither is the case here and it also wasn't the case in Arkham.

----------


## Atlanta96

Look, I agree that Tim shouldn't have co-opted the hood from Damien. Partly because it's Damian's trademark, partly because Tim looks like sh*t in a hood. But let's not pretend Damian hasn't borrowed from Tim a lot. The bo staff, the friendship with Superboy, partnership with Dick, being Bruce's son, Tim started those things.

All I'm saying is, be consistent.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Look, I agree that Tim shouldn't have co-opted the hood from Damien. Partly because it's Damian's trademark, partly because Tim looks like sh*t in a hood. But let's not pretend Damian hasn't borrowed from Tim a lot. The bo staff, the friendship with Superboy, partnership with Dick, being Bruce's son, Tim started those things.
> 
> All I'm saying is, be consistent.


He has used a bo what twice, The friendship with Superboy saga of the supersons. Bat family team up all the time and Batmans son is borrowed from Dick the 1st son and the unnamed biological baby Talia gave up. Tim did not start any of those aside from the bo which Damain was seen with twice briefly.

Not the same thing at all.

----------


## Assam

> He has used a bo what twice, The friendship with Superboy saga of the supersons. Bat family team up all the time and Batmans son is borrowed from Dick the 1st son and the unnamed biological baby Talia gave up. Tim did not start any of those aside from the bo which Damain was seen with twice briefly.
> 
> Not the same thing at all.


Whether or not he "borrowed" a friendship with [a] Superboy will come down to how long it is till Kon comes back. As for the relationship with Dick, yeah, I'm with Atlanta. Not that the two don't still interact,but at least from what I've seen, Dick and Tim seemed closer and appeared together more often prior to Damian's arrival.(I really wish we could get another Gates of Gotham type story where all the Wayne kids worked together, obviously with Jason thrown in alongside the other 4 now) You're right about him not stealing the bo staff or being Bruce's kid though.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Whether or not he "borrowed" a friendship with [a] Superboy will come down to how long it is till Kon comes back. As for the relationship with Dick, yeah, I'm with Atlanta. Not that the two don't still interact,but at least from what I've seen, Dick and Tim seemed closer and appeared together more often prior to Damian's arrival.(I really wish we could get another Gates of Gotham type story where all the Wayne kids worked together, obviously with Jason thrown in alongside the other 4 now) You're right about him not stealing the bo staff or being Bruce's kid though.



Because Tim was off in his solo and Dd were sharing a title. Dick and Tim has appeared together more often than Dd since Dickbats ended if you factor in BRE. So again not borrowed.

Tim wasn't the 1st Batfamily member that was close to Dick that would be Bruce  and Alfred even Bat girl so that's not borrowed.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Aahz

> Previous Robins mixed and matched but Damian kept his look. Dick and Jason fans never tried to claim ownership of the borrowed items as Tim's fans are currently doing online. I checked out some Youtube videos and the comments sections are indeed littered with Tim fans claiming Tim had it 1st or that it was his signature look in Red Robin but they gave it to Damian to make him look cool. ??????????


When they redesigned the Robin costume for Tim there were actually some designs with a hood.

----------


## RedBird

My theory is that considering half the team are in 'ninja suits' that cover their faces, that this season of young justice will have a heavier theme of espionage and the designers most likely wanted to reflect that in the costume, especially for the non meta characters that are forced to be sneaky in their approach. Within the main canon an attached hoodie was a visual character element to reflect Damians upbringing within the league and to imply that he is someone who is hiding his true nature, whilst here, if I am correct with my theory, then its to fit within a story lines thematic elements of staying hidden. They are designers and this is a different dc world they have more freedom for, its annoying as a fan but I can't begrudge them for aesthetic choices that they feel were appropriate even if it goes against my personal preferences for these characters. We'll just have to wait and see what they provide, not to say that they have to EARN the right to have Tim wear a hoodie, at the end of the day its a common article of clothing but I think it would be better to have a reason for the outfit change, after all, even aesthetic elements should tell a story.

----------


## scary harpy

> When they redesigned the Robin costume for Tim there were actually some designs with a hood.


Thank you.

I always enjoy looking at those amazing costumes.

----------


## godisawesome

Is it wrong that I feel the "Wings still do not work" comment to be prescient? 

Seriously. Cape and cowl. That's a Red Robin look.

----------


## CPSparkles

> When they redesigned the Robin costume for Tim there were actually some designs with a hood.


And........?

----------


## CPSparkles

> My theory is that considering half the team are in 'ninja suits' that cover their faces, that this season of young justice will have a heavier theme of espionage and the designers most likely wanted to reflect that in the costume, especially for the non meta characters that are forced to be sneaky in their approach. Within the main canon an attached hoodie was a visual character element to reflect Damians upbringing within the league and to imply that he is someone who is hiding his true nature, whilst here, if I am correct with my theory, then its to fit within a story lines thematic elements of staying hidden. They are designers and this is a different dc world they have more freedom for, its annoying as a fan but I can't begrudge them for aesthetic choices that they feel were appropriate even if it goes against my personal preferences for these characters. We'll just have to wait and see what they provide, not to say that they have to EARN the right to have Tim wear a hoodie, at the end of the day its a common article of clothing but I think it would be better to have a reason for the outfit change, after all, even aesthetic elements should tell a story.


The senior team are dressed in Black not Tim's.
Their outfits already have built in stealth mode tech for those types of missions.

----------


## RedBird

> The senior team are dressed in Black not Tim's.
> Their outfits already have built in stealth mode tech for those types of missions.


I know that, my theories point still stands though, if the season will have espionage elements then it may extend to the new costumes and aesthetic designs. I'm talking about overall theme of the show (season 3) reflecting in all other elements. Time will tell I suppose what it is actually about.

----------


## Red obin

> When they redesigned the Robin costume for Tim there were actually some designs with a hood.


The 'show girl'(+2 quoting Steph(2+quoting maps)) wing comments make me laugh!

----------


## KrustyKid

8e9823100377b280a36375f55bbfc3b1.jpg

Love birds

----------


## Vinsanity

> When they redesigned the Robin costume for Tim there were actually some designs with a hood.


Damn those smiles are creepier than the costumes.

----------


## scary harpy

> And........?


And....what?

----------


## CPSparkles

> And....what?


And what was poster's point. Rejected designs that did not make it into the final DC approved Tim Drake that launched has nothing to do with the false online claims.

----------


## Assam

thief.jpg

I don't feel bad for Tim since he's still gotten it better than some, but it's still sad that this keeps happening. (And yet, both BTAS and YJ are better adaptations of Tim than the Arkham series)

----------


## KrustyKid

> Damn those smiles are creepier than the costumes.


You don't lie, lol

----------


## scary harpy

> And what was poster's point. Rejected designs that did not make it into the final DC approved Tim Drake that launched has nothing to do with the false online claims.


Sorry, I did not see that.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Still the best Robin costume.

----------


## RedBird

> thief.jpg
> 
> I don't feel bad for Tim since he's still gotten it better than some, but it's still sad that this keeps happening. (And yet, both BTAS and YJ are better adaptations of Tim than the Arkham series)


Ha, nice. Yeah, I think the more egregious example of Jasons stolen identity from BTAS (personality and backstory) has made me numb for the whole 'hoodie controversy', like whelp its weird, but this ain't even the worst of it. Also I will actually say I did like ArkhamTim or Potatim if you prefer, I get the relationship with Babs is a strange change, however, I thought his personality, humble approach to Robin and general likability were still intact.

----------


## scary harpy

> Still the best Robin costume.


It was better than the previous costume.

It works for that decade also.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Best Robin costume ever
And Tim is the best Robin ever too  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Conner

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Caivu

The product description for Detective Comics Vol. 5 is up on Amazon, and seems to indicate "A Lonely Place of Living" ends with #968, making it four issues.

Screenshot_20170726-233359.jpg

----------


## Assam

If it is only 4 issues (and we don't know if it'll tie into the annual), then it'll be over in mid-November. Interesting. 

Also, I'd be more salty over Cass being left out of the listing of team members if she hadn't already been excluded from the description of HER OWN ARC. 

https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Detect...e+comics+vol+3

----------


## Atlanta96

Only 2 more months now. Not too much longer, but the wait will probably feel closer to 20 months.

I still believe locking him up for a whole year was the worst idea ever.

----------


## Vinsanity

> Only 2 more months now. Not too much longer, but the wait will probably feel closer to 20 months.
> 
> I still believe locking him up for a whole year was the worst idea ever.


Better than him doing stuff that leads him getting shafted while still there. 

As I said several times, I think the best idea for Tim is to keep him on ice until they find a reason for him. I think if he moved to London or somewhere in the world, we can have some great stuff.

----------


## scary harpy

> Better than him doing stuff that leads him getting shafted while still there. 
> 
> As I said several times, I think the best idea for Tim is to keep him on ice until they find a reason for him. I think if he moved to London or somewhere in the world, we can have some great stuff.


London? Isn't Wonder Woman there? 

That would be interesting.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I'd be down for a Red Robin/Spoiler series wherever.

----------


## Rac7d*

Can someone explain to me Tim costume back then was is an exoskelton



how he appears in costume

----------


## Vinsanity

> London? Isn't Wonder Woman there? 
> 
> That would be interesting.


Well idk anymore if she is. But other cities with different flairs like Berlin, Hong Kong, Sydney, Rio, Madrid. So many unexplored options. 

Don't like Spoiler so I don't want her there :P

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Jay and Tim

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Bat boys

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## oasis1313

> 


Ain't THIS the truth?  Bruce DOES act like that.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ain't THIS the truth?  Bruce DOES act like that.


Well, maybe he did in the old timeline, but not anymore. D&D are just jealous here, because Bruce didn't give them a hug.  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, maybe he did in the old timeline, but not anymore. D&D are just jealous here, because Bruce didn't give them a hug.


And they'd better not hold their breaths waiting to get one, either--'cause Bruce doesn't like any of them except for Timmy.

----------


## Assam

> And they'd better not hold their breaths waiting to get one, either--'cause Bruce doesn't like any of them except for Timmy.


There's no denying that Bruce's favorites Pre-Flashpoint were Tim and Cass. He really didn't even try to hide it.  :Big Grin: 

Currently in Rebirth, with multiple writers working toward making Bruce an actually emotionally stable human being, it seems like for once, he really does care about them all equally...even if he can still be kinda bad at the dad thing sometimes ex. The newest issue of Teen Titans.

----------


## KrustyKid

> There's no denying that Bruce's favorites Pre-Flashpoint were Tim and Cass. He really didn't even try to hide it. 
> 
> Currently in Rebirth, with multiple writers working toward making Bruce an actually emotionally stable human being, it seems like for once, he really does care about them all equally...even if he can still be kinda bad at the dad thing sometimes ex. The newest issue of Teen Titans.


I'd actually say Damian is Bruce's favorite(currently), there is stuff on panel that would suggest that. Though I'd say he trusts Dick the most. Everyone else is about even regarding the bat kids.

----------


## Assam

> I'd actually say Damian is Bruce's favorite(currently), there is stuff on panel that would suggest that. .



I'm aware of what you're talking about, but for the sake of trying to NOT hate Bruce, I'm going to ignore all of the things he said after Damian died, and what he told Thomas.

----------


## KrustyKid

7d1b4f595b65a81fd450ccfa4c23c10b.jpg

It's raining Tim's :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> 7d1b4f595b65a81fd450ccfa4c23c10b.jpg
> 
> It's raining Tim's


HALLELUJAH! 

*Realizes Tim has never been older than 17 and thus referencing that song is super creepy*

----------


## KrustyKid

> HALLELUJAH! 
> 
> *Realizes Tim has never been older than 17 and thus referencing that song is super creepy*


An undeniable truth

----------


## millernumber1

I just mainlined Young Justice, as I mentioned in the Steph thread (because it's going off Netflix August 1st), and while I wish Tim had gotten more focus, his brotherly relationship with Babs and Dick was incredibly well done. I love little-brother Tim.  :Smile:

----------


## Badou

I don't think this would happen, but how would Tim fans feel if he became the new Oracle? Would you like that more or less than his current identity of Red Robin? Reading some of the Babs thread and people being displeased with the current Oracle made me think of who would make a good Oracle and Tim came to mind. I don't know if Red Robin has worked since the reboot and Oracle would give him an established identity within the Batman family that is more like Nightwing and Red Hood. Since the reboot they have focused even more on his hacking and computer skills so that part would fit at least.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think this would happen, but how would Tim fans feel if he became the new Oracle? Would you like that more or less than his current identity of Red Robin? Reading some of the Babs thread and people being displeased with the current Oracle made me think of who would make a good Oracle and Tim came to mind. I don't know if Red Robin has worked since the reboot and Oracle would give him an established identity within the Batman family that is more like Nightwing and Red Hood. Since the reboot they have focused even more on his hacking and computer skills so that part would fit at least.


Hate it. Hate it. Haaaaaaaaaaaaate it. 

Aside from the fact that I don't really want ANYONE taking over because I continue to hope that some Zero Hour esque reboot in the next couple decades will put Babs back in a wheelchair, there's the fact that, like Gus, Tim is an able-bodied man.

The only reason Red Robin hasn't worked since the reboot is because they took away his solo and assassinated his character, giving him the old body snatcher treatment.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't think this would happen, but how would Tim fans feel if he became the new Oracle? Would you like that more or less than his current identity of Red Robin? Reading some of the Babs thread and people being displeased with the current Oracle made me think of who would make a good Oracle and Tim came to mind. I don't know if Red Robin has worked since the reboot and Oracle would give him an established identity within the Batman family that is more like Nightwing and Red Hood. Since the reboot they have focused even more on his hacking and computer skills so that part would fit at least.


No, no. Both identities are horrible.

----------


## Badou

> Hate it. Hate it. Haaaaaaaaaaaaate it. 
> 
> Aside from the fact that I don't really want ANYONE taking over because I continue to hope that some Zero Hour esque reboot in the next couple decades will put Babs back in a wheelchair, there's the fact that, like Gus, Tim is an able-bodied man.
> 
> The only reason Red Robin hasn't worked since the reboot is because they took away his solo and assassinated his character, giving him the old body snatcher treatment.


I don't see Babs leaving Batgirl anytime soon, especially with a Batgirl movie in the works and her being one of the leads in that DC Super Hero Girls line that is hugely profitable, but I didn't mean that Tim would get crippled to be Oracle. He would still be a hero with a costume and out in the field like he is now; just with a new identity and costume. 




> No, no. Both identities are horrible.


Do you have an idea for an identity you do like?

----------


## Assam

> I don't see Babs leaving Batgirl anytime soon, especially with a Batgirl movie in the works and her being one of the leads in that DC Super Hero Girls line that is hugely profitable, but I didn't mean that Tim would get crippled to be Oracle. He would still be a hero with a costume and out in the field like he is now; just with a new identity and costume.


Like I said: In the next couple decades. Anything could happen. 

Also, I wasn't saying I didn't want an abe-bodied man to be Oracle because I felt they should be out in the field. I don't want an able-bodied person to be Oracle because a lot of the appeal of Oracle was that she was a disabled woman who was a pillar of the super hero community; she was an amazing example of representation.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Do you have an idea for an identity you do like?


Nite Owl

10char

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't think this would happen, but how would Tim fans feel if he became the new Oracle? Would you like that more or less than his current identity of Red Robin? Reading some of the Babs thread and people being displeased with the current Oracle made me think of who would make a good Oracle and Tim came to mind. I don't know if Red Robin has worked since the reboot and Oracle would give him an established identity within the Batman family that is more like Nightwing and Red Hood. Since the reboot they have focused even more on his hacking and computer skills so that part would fit at least.


Tim operating in Oracle like ways I'd be ok with, just done differently than we saw with Babs. However I'd rather he not take up the Oracle name. Either stick with Red Robin or a new original code name is given to him.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I don't think this would happen, but how would Tim fans feel if he became the new Oracle? Would you like that more or less than his current identity of Red Robin? Reading some of the Babs thread and people being displeased with the current Oracle made me think of who would make a good Oracle and Tim came to mind. I don't know if Red Robin has worked since the reboot and Oracle would give him an established identity within the Batman family that is more like Nightwing and Red Hood. Since the reboot they have focused even more on his hacking and computer skills so that part would fit at least.


Hopefully that doesn't happen, I don't wanna see him get sidelined.

----------


## oasis1313

Isn't Ted What-zis-name getting pretty old, leaving room for a new Wildcat?

----------


## shadowsgirl

Dick and Tim - Brothers  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Isn't Ted What-zis-name getting pretty old, leaving room for a new Wildcat?


1) Ted Grant is his name. 
2) Being old has never been a problem for him before, and we don't know what will happen with Rebirth. 
3) It's a non-issue, because at least going off Post-Crisis, he still has at least 6 lives left. 
4) He already HAD an active (And AWESOME) legacy, working alongside him: His estranged son Tommy, who had a human-cat hybrid form.

----------


## OBrianTallent

One name that I have thought would be an interesting idea for Tim to adopt would be Sandman.  At the present I am not sure how to tie Tim to the legacy, but its comics and I'm sure someone could. 
Another identity that could be interesting is the old Fawcett character Midnight, an old pulp character in the vein of the Spirit...one part vigilante, one part detective...

----------


## Assam

> One name that I have thought would be an interesting idea for Tim to adopt would be Sandman.  At the present I am not sure how to tie Tim to the legacy, but its comics and I'm sure someone could. 
> Another identity that could be interesting is the old Fawcett character Midnight, an old pulp character in the vein of the Spirit...one part vigilante, one part detective...


Jesus. Dr. Midnight, Wildcat, Sandman.  These. People. Have. Legacies. Already. Why the obsession with turning Tim into a JSAer? 

Tim as a detective,pulp style hero though? That could work.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Jesus. Dr. Midnight, Wildcat, Sandman.  These. People. Have. Legacies. Already. Why the obsession with turning Tim into a JSAer? 
> 
> Tim as a detective,pulp style hero though? That could work.


First of all, I never said DOCTOR Midnight, I said Midnight.  Totally different character and not a JSA'er.  No one ever said anything about turning him into a JSA'er, just suggestions for new identities for him.  As for why?  Why not?  Tie Tim into something bigger than the bat-verse where he is exactly the same as everyone else.  Also..why not...just because we like the idea of it.  We get it, you dont like it.  Not like it's going to happen, so just let us talk about what we think might be a fun idea.

----------


## Assam

> First of all, I never said DOCTOR Midnight, I said Midnight.  Totally different character and not a JSA'er.  No one ever said anything about turning him into a JSA'er, just suggestions for new identities for him.  As for why?  Why not?  Tie Tim into something bigger than the bat-verse where he is exactly the same as everyone else.  Also..why not...just because we like the idea of it.  We get it, you dont like it.  Not like it's going to happen, so just let us talk about what we think might be a fun idea.


Didn't say you brought up Dr. Midnight. I've seen people on here, and elsewhere, talking about putting him in that role (Mostly just because of his Pre-Flashpoint costume)

----------


## godisawesome

I used to think a good pulp hero basis for Red Robin solo Tim would have been a toned down version of the Shadow; an altruistic hero who loves planning but has a dark manipulative side.

----------


## scary harpy

> Another identity that could be interesting is the old Fawcett character Midnight, an old pulp character in the vein of the Spirit...one part vigilante, one part detective...





> First of all, I never said DOCTOR Midnight, I said Midnight.  Totally different character and not a JSA'er.  No one ever said anything about turning him into a JSA'er, just suggestions for new identities for him.  As for why?  Why not?  Tie Tim into something bigger than the bat-verse where he is exactly the same as everyone else.  Also..why not...just because we like the idea of it.  We get it, you dont like it.  Not like it's going to happen, so just let us talk about what we think might be a fun idea.


I think Midnight is a great name in general and for Tim in particular. 

We don't need a Spirit clone...but we do need new names and directions for some characters.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

he could be the question? (half serious)

----------


## Caivu

I don't get how Tim is supposed to relate to most of these mantles. What's his connection, especially currently? Why should he take any of these names?

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't get how Tim is supposed to relate to most of these mantles. What's his connection, especially currently? Why should he take any of these names?


Because it makes sense for him to be a vigilante detective and/or tech geek. So Midnight or Nite Owl would fit his character.

----------


## Caivu

> Because it makes sense for him to be a vigilante detective and/or tech geek. So Midnight or Nite Owl would fit his character.


Yes, but why specifically those identities? Does he have any relation to them at all? Any reason to adopt any of them? That's what I don't get. Not the role, but the names.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Yes, but why specifically those identities? Does he have any relation to them at all? Any reason to adopt any of them? That's what I don't get. Not the role, but the names.


Because they're big improvements over Red Robin and do you have any better ideas?

----------


## Caivu

> Because they're big improvements over Red Robin and do you have any better ideas?


I don't, and it's not that they're bad names. I'm just not getting the logic of what would cause Tim to take any of them.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Because they're big improvements over Red Robin and do you have any better ideas?


What's wrong with Red Robin?   Tim was replaced as Robin before his time.

----------


## Atlanta96

> What's wrong with Red Robin?   Tim was replaced as Robin before his time.


Its not a marketable name. It reduces him to a redundant second Robin and guarantees that he will be overshadowed and sidelined by the actual Robin. It's holding Tim back and it's got to go.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't, and it's not that they're bad names. I'm just not getting the logic of what would cause Tim to take any of them.


My thoughts exactly. Which is why I think Tim should either stick with Red Robin, or come up with something entirely new(perhaps something that could be linked to a potential new outlook for Tim?)

----------


## Atlanta96

> I don't, and it's not that they're bad names. I'm just not getting the logic of what would cause Tim to take any of them.


He doesn't need a specific connection to those characters to take them. They're not in use and they fit his character, that's good enough. Who the heck wants to go around fighting crime named after a fast food joint?

----------


## TheCape

> Who the heck wants to go around fighting crime named after a fast food joint?


I do, but i'm weird like that  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## godisawesome

> My thoughts exactly. Which is why I think Tim should either stick with Red Robin, or come up with something entirely new(perhaps something that could be linked to a potential new outlook for Tim?)


I agree. It's true that some laymen might get confused or tickled by the Red Robin name's history in the real world, but it's undeniable that the name served very well as Tim's before the New 52, and while you can argue it's a bit redundant and suggests Tim's is still holding on to his old role, that's a double edged argument. Since Tim was the first Robin to successfully hold down a decade long solo comic in the Robin role and was used as a reconstruction of the archetype by DC, it makes sense out of universe to keep that legacy front and center, and in universe making Tim a little torn about his graduation made sense as well.

Giving him another character's legacy title without building a reliable groundwork doesn't seem like a good idea; it's arguable that even a corny name like Red Robin might still have more value as an IP simply because it was front and center for a successful book in the Batfamily and has a Genesis in Kingdom Come, while Dr. Midnight and Sandman are nostalgic Golden Age mantles that have been relegated to JSA for the last half century. There's also the old problem of replacing someone else's fan favorite with another family's character; what I do know and have read about most of the Golden Age characters makes me like them the way they are, and I can only imagine how annoyed the actual fanboys would be.

Either make a new, highly marketable identity (which we've seen can be difficult, in regards to Lark/Signal) or keep a proven, if trickier to sell, name.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Its not a marketable name. It reduces him to a redundant second Robin and guarantees that he will be overshadowed and sidelined by the actual Robin. It's holding Tim back and it's got to go.


It's way more marketable then all these obscure ones being thrown out.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I agree. It's true that some laymen might get confused or tickled by the Red Robin name's history in the real world, but it's undeniable that the name served very well as Tim's before the New 52, and while you can argue it's a bit redundant and suggests Tim's is still holding on to his old role, that's a double edged argument. Since Tim was the first Robin to successfully hold down a decade long solo comic in the Robin role and was used as a reconstruction of the archetype by DC, it makes sense out of universe to keep that legacy front and center, and in universe making Tim a little torn about his graduation made sense as well.
> 
> Giving him another character's legacy title without building a reliable groundwork doesn't seem like a good idea; it's arguable that even a corny name like Red Robin might still have more value as an IP simply because it was front and center for a successful book in the Batfamily and has a Genesis in Kingdom Come, while Dr. Midnight and Sandman are nostalgic Golden Age mantles that have been relegated to JSA for the last half century. There's also the old problem of replacing someone else's fan favorite with another family's character; what I do know and have read about most of the Golden Age characters makes me like them the way they are, and I can only imagine how annoyed the actual fanboys would be.
> 
> Either make a new, highly marketable identity (which we've seen can be difficult, in regards to Lark/Signal) or keep a proven, if trickier to sell, name.


Couldn't have said it better myself

----------


## Assam

> Couldn't have said it better myself


I think this basically goes for 99% of everything godisawesome posts.  :Wink:

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think this basically goes for 99% of everything godisawesome posts.


You don't lie

----------


## Atlanta96

> It's way more marketable then all these obscure ones being thrown out.


Nite Owl is not obscure.

----------


## scary harpy

> Either make a new, highly marketable identity (which we've seen can be difficult, in regards to Lark/Signal) or keep a proven, if trickier to sell, name.


Sure. Okay. Let's do that.

Accept that Tim will star in his series: *Red Robin, Yuck*.

*Or*

Create a new, highly marketable identity...which does not include Midnight, Sand Man, Mister Scarlet, Nite Owl, etcetera.

This sounds fun.

----------


## Assam

> Nite Owl is not obscure.


True, but what the Hell does Tim have to do with the Watchmen? Moreso, _everyone_ knows Watchmen. It's like when they made Tim Batman Beyond but worse. Even if he did become Nite Owl, it wouldn't stick.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

And people already get riled about DC mining Watchmen IP because they are supposedly running out of ideas. 

The only way they could swing is if somehow during this big Watchmen/DC story, Tim spends a non insignificant amount of time with Nite Owl II or some copy/manifestation of him, and is inspired by those interactions to take on the name so that what he stood for (the average smart guy fighting crime) could somehow live on.

----------


## Atlanta96

> And people already get riled about DC mining Watchmen IP because they are supposedly running out of ideas. 
> 
> The only way they could swing is if somehow during this big Watchmen/DC story, Tim spends a non insignificant amount of time with Nite Owl II or some copy/manifestation of him, and is inspired by those interactions to take on the name so that what he stood for (the average smart guy fighting crime) could somehow live on.


And he should do that.

----------


## oasis1313

> True, but what the Hell does Tim have to do with the Watchmen? Moreso, _everyone_ knows Watchmen. It's like when they made Tim Batman Beyond but worse. Even if he did become Nite Owl, it wouldn't stick.


I believe that if a Watchman connection is to be made, Tim will dye his hair blond and assume the identity of Ozymandias.  Think about it:  Ozymandias is filthy rich, the smartest man who ever lived, a master of hand-to-hand combat, and a computer whiz.  All of these apply to Tim.  And Tynion wants the best of everything for his Timmy.  If I was Tim's biggest fanboy as well as his scribe, it's what I would do to bring him into most-exalted status.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I believe that if a Watchman connection is to be made, Tim will dye his hair blond and assume the identity of Ozymandias.  Think about it:  Ozymandias is *filthy rich, the smartest man who ever lived, a master of hand-to-hand combat*, and a computer whiz.  All of these apply to Tim.  And Tynion wants the best of everything for his Timmy.  If I was Tim's biggest fanboy as well as his scribe, it's what I would do to bring him into most-exalted status.


Tim isn't rich, all of his gadgets and what not come from Bruce's wealth. Tim isn't even top ten in the smartest people in the DCU, probably not even top twenty. The less said about Tim's mediocre hand to hand skills the better. The Only thing Tim really has in common with Ozy is being very competent when it comes to computers.

----------


## godisawesome

As much as I dislike either identity as a new one for Tim, Nite Owl would fit better than Ozymandias. Ozymandias is the walking embodiment of the Charles Atlas superpower collection: he's _so_ smart, and _so_ fit, and _so_ well trained, that even at middle age he _catching bullets_ and beating experienced and trained h2h combatants to death with little effort, and is a polymath of mad-scientist level creation and planning. He's the Early Siver Age Superman of human vigilantes; actual challenges are few and far between for the character, and stuff that breaks logic and science happens because he's supposed to be a paragon of achievement.

Nite-Owl fits better as a more humble vigilante with varying skills and accomplishments; he's still a step above real world men and women, but close enough that his triumphs are somewhat believable, and thus more emotionally impressive instead of awe-inspiring like Ozymandias.

Still, Tim really shouldn't have to worry about angry Alan Moore fanboys hissing at his new identity.

----------


## KrustyKid

Which is why Tim should stick with Red Robin or get something new entirely(if it makes sense).

----------


## Atlanta96

> Which is why Tim should stick with Red Robin or get something new entirely(if it makes sense).


When writers come up with original names we get stuff like "The Signal". Not a good idea.

----------


## millernumber1

> When writers come up with original names we get stuff like "The Signal". Not a good idea.


Well...I like Lark and Bluebird.  :Wink:

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## oasis1313

> As much as I dislike either identity as a new one for Tim, Nite Owl would fit better than Ozymandias. Ozymandias is the walking embodiment of the Charles Atlas superpower collection: he's _so_ smart, and _so_ fit, and _so_ well trained, that even at middle age he _catching bullets_ and beating experienced and trained h2h combatants to death with little effort, and is a polymath of mad-scientist level creation and planning. He's the Early Siver Age Superman of human vigilantes; actual challenges are few and far between for the character, and stuff that breaks logic and science happens because he's supposed to be a paragon of achievement.
> 
> Nite-Owl fits better as a more humble vigilante with varying skills and accomplishments; he's still a step above real world men and women, but close enough that his triumphs are somewhat believable, and thus more emotionally impressive instead of awe-inspiring like Ozymandias.


Why should Tim be humble?  Even Ozymandias wasn't out cloning metahumans and building self-repairing buildings.  How could any comics character possibly be more awe-inspiring than Tim?

----------


## KrustyKid

> When writers come up with original names we get stuff like "The Signal". Not a good idea.


Not all original names turn out bad. You just named one bad example.

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## KrustyKid

> Why should Tim be humble?  Even Ozymandias wasn't out cloning metahumans and building self-repairing buildings.  How could any comics character possibly be more awe-inspiring than Tim?


Tim was unsuccessful with that whole cloning deal, so I hardly see how that is relevant. Plus that is Pre-52 Tim who attempted to clone Superboy, that has no weight to current Tim whose only strong suit is computers and tech. Let's face it, Ozy is on a whole nother level than Tim in so many areas. They're really not comparable.

----------


## James Hunter

> Which is why Tim should stick with Red Robin or get something new entirely(if it makes sense).


Like Redbird you mean (yes, I know that was the name of his car in the pre-52 but its better then any other suggestion I've seen.  Of course, in the U.K we don't have Red Robin food chains, at least as far as I'm aware, so we don't have that problem with the name)

Cheers.

James

----------


## Dataweaver

> The less said about Tim's mediocre hand to hand skills the better.


 Tim's hand to hand skills are inferior to Dick's hand to hand skills at the same age (which praises Dick more than insults Tim); or at least they were pre-Flashpoint. From what I understand, post-Flashpoint Tim _is_ in Ozymandius territory, as demonstrated by his survival against the first wave of killer drones in Detective Comics; it took a second wave of drones to do him in. 

The Ozymandius comparison works in multiple ways for the New52 Red Robin  which pretty much sums up my problems with New52 Red Robin.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Why should Tim be humble?  Even Ozymandias wasn't out cloning metahumans and building self-repairing buildings.  How could any comics character possibly be more awe-inspiring than Tim?


Pretty sure you're just trolling, but a majority of Tim fans aren't thrilled with super genius Mr Fantastic Tim. 

And personally, while I was happy to see Tynion bring him back and give him a semblance of his old personality, his constant use of "the tech guy" tropes to show his smarts due to his inability/unwillingness to write him actually being a detective and employing critical thinking is really disappointing.




> The Ozymandius comparison works in multiple ways for the New52 Red Robin — which pretty much sums up my problems with New52 Red Robin.



Exactly, its a bug not a feature.

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## oasis1313

> Tim's hand to hand skills are inferior to Dick's hand to hand skills at the same age (which praises Dick more than insults Tim); or at least they were pre-Flashpoint. From what I understand, post-Flashpoint Tim _is_ in Ozymandius territory, as demonstrated by his survival against the first wave of killer drones in Detective Comics; it took a second wave of drones to do him in. 
> 
> The Ozymandius comparison works in multiple ways for the New52 Red Robin — which pretty much sums up my problems with New52 Red Robin.


Who's to say that Tim hasn't been working on his skills since he's been locked up--like a prison inmate gets totally buffed up in the pen exercise room + yards--because there's nothing better to do or maybe figuring he'd better polish up in case he gets to fight himself out of his jail?  To the extent that he has left the entire Bat-Family FAR behind, not only with his super-genius intellect but with fighting skills that cripple the rest of them?  Tynion wants "the coolest thing ever" for Tim, the most exalted position possible.  Tim IS in Ozymandias-Land (maybe Mr Oz is Ozymandias himself).  I could see Ozymandias/Mr Oz dying and appointing Tim to be next Oxymandias, leaving him his empire.  If I was Tynion and looking to bring back my favorite character in the biggest way possible, THIS is what I would do.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim's hand to hand skills are inferior to Dick's hand to hand skills at the same age (which praises Dick more than insults Tim); or at least they were pre-Flashpoint. From what I understand, post-Flashpoint Tim _is_ in Ozymandius territory, as demonstrated *by his survival against the first wave of killer drones in* Detective Comics; it took a second wave of drones to do him in. 
> 
> The Ozymandius comparison works in multiple ways for the New52 Red Robin  which pretty much sums up my problems with New52 Red Robin.


Given that Dick, Bruce, Jason, Cass, and Damian are all more physically gifted than Tim I could all see them doing the same. Heck, I'd even go as far to say Bruce and Cass would survive through both drone attacks, possibly even Dick. I personally didn't find it all that impressive, just textbook for the Bat Fam.

----------


## Assam

> Given that Dick, Bruce, Jason, Cass, and Damian are all more physically gifted than Tim


Also JPV (With his suit), Luke (Champion MMA fighter), probably Kate with how she's been presented lately, maybe classic Huntress, and Hell, I'd even say Steph, seeing as how Pre-FP it was repeatedly stated that her body had more physical potential.

----------


## Atlanta96

The problem with comparing New 52 Tim to Ozymandias is that despite his obnoxious level of skill, Tim was incompetent as frack. He was a horrible Teen Titans leader and failed to bring the team any sort of glory or even a sense of companionship, he was useless in most of the Batman stories aside from computer hacking, and was such a bad fighter that he was knocked out in one punch by Damian Wayne. The Ozy comparison is an overreaction by some people with a chip on their shoulder.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The problem with comparing New 52 Tim to Ozymandias is that despite his obnoxious level of skill, Tim was incompetent as frack. He was a horrible Teen Titans leader and failed to bring the team any sort of glory or even a sense of companionship, he was useless in most of the Batman stories aside from computer hacking, and was such a bad fighter that he was knocked out in one punch by Damian Wayne. The Ozy comparison is an overreaction by some people with a chip on their shoulder.


Pretty much this. While Tim is strong in one area, he's been really lacking in pretty much every other category.

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## KrustyKid

> Also JPV (With his suit), Luke (Champion MMA fighter), probably Kate with how she's been presented lately, maybe classic Huntress, and Hell, I'd even say Steph, seeing as how Pre-FP it was repeatedly stated that her body had more physical potential.


Yep, I'd add JPV to that list for sure. Luke is questionable, I guess it depends on how much flexibility he has in that suit of his. Like Luke, Steph would be highly questionable. Pre-52 Steph however I think would have a far better shot at survival if put in that situation.

----------


## shadowsgirl

You gotta love Tim

----------


## Assam

@shadowsgirl 

I do find it a little funny how all three of Cass's writers wrote Tim better than a good chunk of the people who actually wrote his solo. 

As for that scene itself, love it. While not the highlight of Batgirl #50 by any means, I really do like how Tim, Dick and Babs worked damage control and other angles. There was nothing they could do about Bruce and Cass's fight directly, but they still proved useful as the two drug fueled titans clashed their away across the city, working out their relationship.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> @shadowsgirl 
> 
> I do find it a little funny how all three of Cass's writers wrote Tim better than a good chunk of the people who actually wrote his solo. 
> 
> As for that scene itself, love it. While not the highlight of Batgirl #50 by any means, I really do like how Tim, Dick and Babs worked damage control and other angles. There was nothing they could do about Bruce and Cass's fight directly, but they still proved useful as the two drug fueled titans clashed their away across the city, working out their relationship.


Yep, after Dixon left, the quality went downhill a little bit. 

I love her series, Cass was awesome before the reboot. I miss Barbara as Oracle and the Bat-team in action. I loathe the New52, and Rebirth is still lame as heck. Without their true histories and memories, the characters feel like empty shells. So frustrating.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> I love her series, Cass was awesome before the reboot. I miss Barbara as Oracle and the Bat-team in action. I loathe the New52, and Rebirth is still lame as heck. Without their true histories and memories, the characters feel like empty shells. So frustrating.


The NML/Post- NML BatFam is still absolutely my favorite: Bruce, Cass, Tim, Dick, Oracle, JPV, Steph and (technically) Helena. There are some later additions I like quite a bit, but as a whole, it never got better than this. In  a perfect world, it would have gone on for far more than just a few years, with the unique and awesome additions of Gavin and Onyx becoming staples. I believe in parallel dimensions, and I hope that there's one where Cass, Steph, JPV, Onyx and Gavin weren't all written out in horrible ways within a 3 year span.

----------


## oasis1313

> Pretty much this. While Tim is strong in one area, he's been really lacking in pretty much every other category.


But he's a super-genius and all the others are imbeciles in comparison (except Batman, who's probably up in the moron class so he'll be above the others).  Tim might spending his time at the prison library and gym working on his fighting techniques and studying advanced quantum mechanics so that when he returns, he'll be light-years ahead of even Batman himself.  Or maybe Duke will be in Tim's former position as Little Mister Perfect if he's considered more of a "fan-favorite" by the front office.

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## KrustyKid

11192823_1413961382256112_1977298431_n.jpg

Gotta love the variety :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> The NML/Post- NML BatFam is still absolutely my favorite: Bruce, Cass, Tim, Dick, Oracle, JPV, Steph and (technically) Helena. There are some later additions I like quite a bit, but as a whole, it never got better than this. In  a perfect world, it would have gone on for far more than just a few years, with the unique and awesome additions of Gavin and Onyx becoming staples. I believe in parallel dimensions, and I hope that there's one where Cass, Steph, JPV, Onyx and Gavin weren't all written out in horrible ways within a 3 year span.


That is my favourite era as well in the Bat books. The family wasn't too bloated, and everyone had their own place. Good old times. I wonder what will happen, if the Robin tsunami doesn't stop, and Batman will reach his 10th Robin. Of course, there will be other new additions as well, so the Bat-army can take down the whole JLA, JSA and the Titans, too. Maybe they should just re-name the DC Universe, because the Bat Universe is the future. They will rule everything.

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## KrustyKid

> That is my favourite era as well in the Bat books. The family wasn't too bloated, and everyone had their own place. Good old times. I wonder what will happen, if the Robin tsunami doesn't stop, and Batman will reach his 10th Robin. Of course, there will be other new additions as well, *so the Bat-army can take down the whole JLA, JSA and the Titans, too*. Maybe they should just re-name the DC Universe, because the Bat Universe is the future. They will rule everything.


Lol, if that ever happened there would be a guaranteed rage storm.

----------


## oasis1313

> That is my favourite era as well in the Bat books. The family wasn't too bloated, and everyone had their own place. Good old times. I wonder what will happen, if the Robin tsunami doesn't stop, and Batman will reach his 10th Robin. Of course, there will be other new additions as well, so the Bat-army can take down the whole JLA, JSA and the Titans, too. Maybe they should just re-name the DC Universe, because the Bat Universe is the future. They will rule everything.


I'd actually kinda LIKE to see the Bat-Family stomp the rest of the DC Universe.

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## KrustyKid

> I'd actually kinda LIKE to see the Bat-Family stomp the rest of the DC Universe.


How do you mean? Like in an elseworld story type setting?

Boy would the reactions of something like that happening be catastrophic, lol.

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## Assam

> How do you mean? Like in an elseworld story type setting?
> 
> Boy would the reactions of something like that happening be catastrophic, lol.


I mean, it kinda looks like at least Dick, Kate and Tim are taking down the super hero community in The New Order...

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## sakuyamons

> 11192823_1413961382256112_1977298431_n.jpg
> 
> Gotta love the variety


This is so cute!

And DCAU Tim is there!  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## godisawesome

> 11192823_1413961382256112_1977298431_n.jpg
> 
> Gotta love the variety


DCAU Tim: "Welcome to the club, my man. Now, we have to let you know a policy we have in the Tim Drake Association."

YJ Tim: "Yeah, in the same way Comic Robins use Brady Bunch code names..."

Red Robin Tim: "...we use codenames derived from Coca Cola. It drives Damian _bananas._"

OG Tim: "And it makes Steph laugh so hard she snorts!"

OYL Tim: "Now, we've already agreed to certain code names that most fit out personalities!"

New 52 Tim: "Really? Who's who?"

OYL Tim: "I'm Vanilla Coke, since I'm a bit blander than I was before."

Red Robin Tim: "I'm Coke Zero, because you don't get a body as lean as mine when drawn by Marcus To unless you really cut carbs."

YJ Tim: "I'm Diet Coke, because you see so little of me."

DCAU Tim: "I'm Cherry Coke Zero. I really like the color red; I've even had some weird compulsions to put on a red hoodie that I don't quite understand..."

OG Tim: "And I'm Coke Classic, baby!"

New 52 Tim: "So who am I?"

(Awkward Silence)

OG Tim: "We've got to confess that we didn't select these names; the Bat computer did. It used a complex logarithm based off puns and audience approval."

DCAU Tim: "Which means..."

New 52 Tim: "...wait...No!"

YJ Tim: "I'm sorry man, but you were an unwanted change on a beloved formula..."

Red Robin Tim: "...You're *New Coke.*"

New 52 Tim: "*NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!*"

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## KrustyKid

> DCAU Tim: "Welcome to the club, my man. Now, we have to let you know a policy we have in the Tim Drake Association."
> 
> YJ Tim: "Yeah, in the same way Comic Robins use Brady Bunch code names..."
> 
> Red Robin Tim: "...we use codenames derived from Coca Cola. It drives Damian _bananas._"
> 
> OG Tim: "And it makes Steph laugh so hard she snorts!"
> 
> OYL Tim: "Now, we've already agreed to certain code names that most fit out personalities!"
> ...


Lol. Those names and explanations for YJ Tim and DCAU Tim were the best.

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## KrustyKid

MapsDrake.jpg

She's not lying

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## shadowsgirl

Tim and his narcolepsy  :Big Grin:

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## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## Assam

You guys ever get the feeling that this forum has the largest concentration of Tim haters on the internet?

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## KrustyKid

> You guys ever get the feeling that this forum has the largest concentration of Tim haters on the internet?


They're certainly more vocal here then most other places. Though generally speaking, outside of my visits here I wouldn't say Tim is the most hated of the Robins.

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## Assam

> They're certainly more vocal here then most other places. *Though generally speaking, outside of my visits here I wouldn't say Tim is the most hated of the Robins.*


Same. Beloved as he is here and certainly by many others, I think Damian is still overall the most hated.

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## godisawesome

I don't even think you can say Tim's "hated" by his so-called haters on this board as much as they find him profoundly uninteresting, and, much like what happens to other Robin fanbases when they're worried about their favorite, the "haters" get irritated at some of the posts and comments that are all about displaying a love for a character. Jason's, Damian's, Tim's, Steph's, Cass's and Oracle!Babs's fanbases have all vocalized their worries and hopes for their characters at various times, and there's been some backlash from apathetic readers. Add in the usual "spice of life" hatedoms on the board, and you've got a few more vocally disinterested parties. 

And I keep thinking DC and WB could make some good money and unite the factions with a team book ro team show; if one of the central complaints of Batfamily haters is that there's too many "redundant" bat characters, prove them wrong with a creation focused exclusively on them. There's enough Robins and Batgirls you could have a Power Rangers-esque cartoon taking after the Teen Titans cartoons. My buddy and I even joked around with how you'd play the characters for humor and still retain some of their more noble characteristics. 

Have an exagerrated style where Tim's clearly something of a neurotic nerd but a brilliant planner and brave-in-spite-of-fear fighter, have Damian be the perpetually bratty and aggressive munchkin (with the a British accent) who nonetheless is very defensive of his siblings against others, have Jason be the rebel who's surprisingly mellow most of the time, and Dick as the most awesome big brother of all time. Have Babs do double duty as Oracle and Batgirl (I'd make her wheelchair capable of becoming an exosuit) as a den mother for laconic and sweet but competitive Cass, and Steph as herself and occasionally hilariously calm babysitter for Damian.

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## Alycat

> You guys ever get the feeling that this forum has the largest concentration of Tim haters on the internet?


No actually. I think people either ignore him or focus on hating Damian. Which is most places tbh. Which isnt a surprise with he's been treated .  Speaking of I'm hoping Tims return focuses on the relationships that were important to him when he came into the family like Bruce, Dick, and Alfred. But since it's happening in Tec I can only hope for 1 of those.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Have an exagerrated style where Tim's clearly something of a neurotic nerd but a brilliant planner and brave-in-spite-of-fear fighter, have Damian be the perpetually bratty and aggressive munchkin (with the a British accent) who nonetheless is very defensive of his siblings against others, have Jason be the rebel who's surprisingly mellow most of the time, and Dick as the most awesome big brother of all time. Have Babs do double duty as Oracle and Batgirl (I'd make her wheelchair capable of becoming an exosuit) as a den mother for laconic and sweet but competitive Cass, and Steph as herself and occasionally hilariously calm babysitter for Damian.


I don't care whether Babs is wheelchair bound or not, but this is pretty much what I want. Their personalities are there, writers just need to take advantage of them and not get lazy by writing them as generic "robins".

----------


## sakuyamons

> Same. Beloved as he is here and certainly by many others, I think Damian is still overall the most hated.


Nah, if Dami was hated, he wouldn't be the DCAU Robin.

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## Assam

> Nah, if Dami was hated, he wouldn't be the DCAU Robin.


No, he's the DCAU Robin because being the biological son of Batman makes him more marketable for reasons which will always piss me off. (Honestly, the only trait Damian has that neither of Bruce's daughters (Cass and Helena Wayne) has that makes the suits at DC love him so much is that he has a penis.) 

Also, up until the Teen Titans films, most comicDamian fans didn't even seem to like DCAU Damian. 

Neither Dick or Jason is obviously the most hated, and not enough people know Steph for her to hold the title. That leaves Tim and Damian, and across the web, I've seen much more bile tossed at Damian.

----------


## Alycat

> Nah, if Dami was hated, he wouldn't be the DCAU Robin.


Damian is that Robin for marketing purposes. Which backfired because most of the movies are crap and writers missed the point. Don't even get me started on how hated Injustice Damian is.

----------


## Frontier

(Shrugs) I don't see Damian as being hated anymore then most popular comic characters, at least now. 

But that's post-character development and long after Morrison's...aggressive debut of him, shall we say. 

Now, DCNAU Damian was not well-recieved because they didn't handle his development as well as the comics did, but I think that's also died down a little. 

That's just my take though.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I don't even think you can say Tim's "hated" by his so-called haters on this board as much as they find him profoundly uninteresting, and, much like what happens to other Robin fanbases when they're worried about their favorite, the "haters" get irritated at some of the posts and comments that are all about displaying a love for a character. Jason's, Damian's, Tim's, Steph's, Cass's and Oracle!Babs's fanbases have all vocalized their worries and hopes for their characters at various times, and there's been some backlash from apathetic readers. Add in the usual "spice of life" hatedoms on the board, and you've got a few more vocally disinterested parties. 
> 
> And I keep thinking DC and WB could make some good money and unite the factions with a team book ro team show; if one of the central complaints of Batfamily haters is that there's too many "redundant" bat characters, prove them wrong with a creation focused exclusively on them. There's enough Robins and Batgirls you could have a Power Rangers-esque cartoon taking after the Teen Titans cartoons. My buddy and I even joked around with how you'd play the characters for humor and still retain some of their more noble characteristics. 
> 
> Have an exagerrated style where Tim's clearly something of a neurotic nerd but a brilliant planner and brave-in-spite-of-fear fighter, have Damian be the perpetually bratty and aggressive munchkin (with the a British accent) who nonetheless is very defensive of his siblings against others, have Jason be the rebel who's surprisingly mellow most of the time, and Dick as the most awesome big brother of all time. Have Babs do double duty as Oracle and Batgirl (I'd make her wheelchair capable of becoming an exosuit) as a den mother for laconic and sweet but competitive Cass, and Steph as herself and occasionally hilariously calm babysitter for Damian.


This is exactly what I would like to see in comic book form.  I would love to see DC revive the We Are Robin title and have the four boys as the stars and highlight what makes each one unique.  Stories could go form solo issues to any variety of team ups.  It could also use the "sisters" (Babs, Steph and Cass) and show the full family interaction.  I was super stoked when it was announced that Detective would be a "team" title, but then the main attractions for the book (Tim and Steph) were taken out of play more or less.  
One of my favorite things from the old Nightwing series was when Tim would show up and the two would interact.  I would love to see that again on a broader forum with all four.

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## Assam

Personally, my ideal Bat-Team for either a cartoon or a comic would be Cass, Tim, Steph, JPV and Basil. 




> This is exactly what I would like to see in comic book form.  I would love to see DC revive the We Are Robin title and have the four boys as the stars and highlight what makes each one unique.  Stories could go form solo issues to any variety of team ups.  It could also use the "sisters" (Babs, Steph and Cass) and show the full family interaction.  I was super stoked when it was announced that Detective would be a "team" title, but then the main attractions for the book (Tim and Steph) were taken out of play more or less.  
> One of my favorite things from the old Nightwing series was when Tim would show up and the two would interact.  I would love to see that again on a broader forum with all four.


A book focusing on the male Robins would really piss me off. Partially because it would be re-emphasizing DC's stance that Steph wasn't a Robin, and partially because it would push away the idea of Cass being Bruce's kid. (Less important, but there's also the matter of not caring for half the male Robins very much) 




> but then the main attractions for the book (Tim and Steph) were taken out of play more or less.


Well at least the main attraction for some us are still around.

----------


## Aahz

> Well at least the main attraction for some us are still around.


But Cass is not much more than around, appart from her own story arc she hasn't really done much.

But we will see what happens when Tim returns.

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## Assam

> But Cass is not much more than around, appart from her own story arc she hasn't really done much.


While this is true, and my first thought upon starting every issue is "Please let Cass do something this issue" the fact remains that, looking at Intelligence, an arc where she got 1 really, really good scene, and a couple other good moments, that's still more than most of the last 10 years. Issues where she does nothing definitely get on my nerves (like for most of the first few arcs of the book) but for now, even with as many problems as I have with currentCass, crumbs are satisfying. _For now_. (Plus there's the fact that I'm half-sure the next major arc after Lonely Place of Living will be a Cass and Basil arc so that's something to look forward to) 




> But we will see what happens when Tim returns.


Definitely will be interesting to see what happens. If his return does take him back to the 'Tec team (Which I'm not positive it will) I'm really not sure whose place he'd take. Let alone if Steph also re-entered the fray.

----------


## Assam

bitterness.jpg

Each one was added by a different person with their own derogatory comment. This is not the first time this scene has been ridiculed, nor should it ever stop being ridiculed, because you KNOW there are some people out there who WOULD like the BatFam to be just the characters drawn in that panel. I don't care about King's run at all, but this seriously got under my skin.

----------


## Aahz

> Definitely will be interesting to see what happens. If his return does take him back to the 'Tec team (Which I'm not positive it will) I'm really not sure whose place he'd take. Let alone if Steph also re-entered the fray.


Will be intersting how Tynion solves that.

Tim and Luke are kind of filling the same slot, but if they take Luke out Azrael looses his partner. 

If he just leaves the team as it is and adds Tim, which role should he fill? He can't really be Batwomans second in command when the majority of the other heros are older than him. Just being the tech and computer guy would also not really work since Luke is just more of a tech guy. Beeing the detective would also not really work, since there is hardly any detective work in the book (and that works anyway better in a solo). There would be a big danger that he would just end as a tagalong (kind of like cass at the moment).

If they put Tim and Steph both back and keep the current team, it would probaly feel like having two teams. A teen team (Tim, Cass and Steph) and an adult one (Kate, Luke and Jean-Paul) with Bruce and Basil also somehow around.

----------


## Frontier

> bitterness.jpg
> 
> Each one was added by a different person with their own derogatory comment. This is not the first time this scene has been ridiculed, nor should it ever stop being ridiculed, because you KNOW there are some people out there who WOULD like the BatFam to be just the characters drawn in that panel. I don't care about King's run at all, but this seriously got under my skin.


I think everyone has their own idea of what the Batfamily should look like (or if they don't want one at all).

----------


## Assam

> If they put Tim and Steph both back and keep the current team, it would probaly feel like having two teams. A teen team (Tim, Cass and Steph) and an adult one (Kate, Luke and Jean-Paul) with Bruce and Basil also somehow around.


8 team members would _really_ be too much for a book like this, with the cast barely being juggled as it is. I personally think Kate is the only one who it would make sense to lose at this point, since she has her own book, and removing her doesn't throw off either of the new duos (Luke and JPV/ Cass and Basil). Not to mention, since the bootcamp idea stopped mattering a long time ago, her primary role is non-existent. However, it's a mute point since we already know that Kate isn't going anywhere. 

Tim may get back together with his YJ mates, Steph may keep appearing after each arc for her own shenanigans; we really don't know how it's gonna play out. But with what you said, the team feeling like it's split in two, they may as well just do that as a possibility. 'Tec has proven to be a financial success and, at times, critical success, so if they don't want to make more solos, they may as well give the characters more air to breathe. We've still got that hint about Harper being in a team book hanging in the air, and much as most of us don't want her involved, a 2nd Bat-team book could work. Not entirely sure how I'd divvy up the teams, but as for a title, _Gotham Knights_ currently isn't in use.

----------


## Frontier

The only time I've ever seen an 8-man team really work is in the _Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes_ cartoon.

(Although the Justice Society is probably another one, I just forget how many members they have at one time).

----------


## Assam

> The only time I've ever seen an 8-man team really work is in the _Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes_ cartoon.
> 
> (Although the Justice Society is probably another one, I just forget how many members they have at one time).


Yeah, the balancing of the large cast of the modern JSA was done really well. Didn't work quite as well with the massive expansion in 2006, but that's why JSA All-Stars became a thing...even if the art REALLY hurt that book. 

A few other examples of large teams working well:

- Grayson's Titans. Team may have lost members as it went on, but for over a year, it balanced 10 team members excellently. 
- The JLI. 
- Young Justice had 9 members by the end, 12 if you count Red Tornado, Traya and Snapper. 
- And, naturally, the *Legion* of Superheroes. 

Large casts can work just fine. Tynion has simply shown that, at least with how he's writing this book, it wouldn't be a good idea here.

----------


## josai21

Best roles fot current batfam imo:

Bruce as Batman
Dick as Batman
Barbara as Oracle
Damian as Robin
Jason with Outsiders
Tim as Red Robin (pre n52)
Cass as Batgirl
Steph as Spoiler.
Alfred as Alfred.

That's it. Kate could stay batwoman but off in her own thing.

But this 9 are the core family. Anything else is unnecessary.

----------


## Assam

> Best roles fot current batfam imo:
> 
> Bruce as Batman
> Dick as Batman
> Barbara as Oracle
> Damian as Robin
> Jason with Outsiders
> Tim as Red Robin (pre n52)
> Cass as Batgirl
> ...


I don't disagree that those 9 at this point are/should be the core BatFam. Definitely wouldn't just get rid of all the others though considering I'm a fan of/ a bigger fan of (then some of the core members) JPV (Who at one point WAS core BatFam), Clayface and, if you count her, Huntress. Not to mention some of the REALLY extended members (Misfit, Onyx, Renee as the Question) Funny thing is all three of those ladies already do exist in the current continuity to some extent. Someone just has to want to do something with them.

----------


## josai21

> I don't disagree that those 9 at this point are/should be the core BatFam. Definitely wouldn't just get rid of all the others though considering I'm a fan of/ a bigger fan of (then some of the core members) JPV (Who at one point WAS core BatFam), Clayface and, if you count her, Huntress. Not to mention some of the REALLY extended members (Misfit, Onyx, Renee as the Question) Funny thing is all three of those ladies already do exist in the current continuity to some extent. Someone just has to want to do something with them.


Definitely not opposed to those characters and like them, but they are definitely extended family. Second cousins, aunts and uncles, etc.

----------


## oasis1313

> Best roles fot current batfam imo:
> 
> Bruce as Batman
> Dick as Batman
> Barbara as Oracle
> Damian as Robin
> Jason with Outsiders
> Tim as Red Robin (pre n52)
> Cass as Batgirl
> ...


I consider Bat-Cow to be absolutely necessary.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Sarcastic Tim is the best Tim

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Caivu

So, in the bad future seen in this week's Batwoman #6, it's very likely that Tim becomes Batman after Bruce's death.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, so it has already come out?

----------


## Assam

> Oh, so it has already come out?


Tomorrow. The reason we're all pretty sure Batman is Tim here is because 1) It's Tynion, and 2) He said on Twitter that this ties into both Lonely Place of Living and the arc of 'Tec that comes after.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tomorrow. The reason we're all pretty sure Batman is Tim here is because 1) It's Tynion, and 2) He said on Twitter that this ties into both Lonely Place of Living and the arc of 'Tec that comes after.


Did we mention it's Tynion?  :Smile:

----------


## DragonPiece

> So, in the bad future seen in this week's Batwoman #6, it's very likely that Tim becomes Batman after Bruce's death.


So the big plan is for Tim to be batman?

----------


## RedBird

> Tomorrow. The reason we're all pretty sure Batman is Tim here is because 1) It's Tynion, and 2) He said on Twitter that this ties into both Lonely Place of Living and the arc of 'Tec that comes after.


I wonder. If this is actually a 'bad' alternative future as it seems to be, would Tynion actually have the guts to even write Tim Drake as a 'bad' Batman? I mean I would actually be interested in a straight up 'evil' Tim, since this is a one off thing it could be pretty fun. BUT I have my doubts it will go that way and instead feature some kind of 'plot twist'.

Personally I'm guessing that Tim is gonna be revealed as misunderstood in this alternative future and actually became Batman to prevent some (insert dramatic plot point here) because otherwise the future would have been even WORSE, and all his efforts were to protect everyone from the danger that only HE knew about. Basically, a 'no really, he is the good guy' kinda thing where the others were just "too naive" to know. Though Jason suspects something right? (foreshadowing perhaps?)

Its kinda like when Bruce keeps a secret but it was all to protect people, even though he looks and acts like a prick to everyone, he still gets to be on the moral high ground because he was right yadda yadda.

Or, and heres the even more fun option, evil Bat Tim is not the 'real' Tim, but a horrible, exaggerated and almost unrecognizable version known as new52 Tim. XD

----------


## Assam

> Or, and heres the even more fun option, evil Bat Tim is not the 'real' Tim, but a horrible, exaggerated and almost unrecognizable version known as new52 Tim. XD


If they go this route, I want to see the swan queen version of the BatSuit.

----------


## godisawesome

There's a precedent for an evil Tim as Batman (Geoff Johns's Titans of Tomorrow), a good Tim as Batman (the Beyond-esque preview from Red Robin, the appearance with a Batwoman Cassandra Cain in the Solo series), and a ruthless but necessary Tim (a hallucination from the Lemire-penned Superboy series).

----------


## darkseidpwns

Minus hallucinations and dreams I can think of 2 versions of Tim that served as Batman. The one from Futures End that became Batman Beyond much to the dismay of Terry fans and the one from Johns TT run who frankly was just godawful.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim Drake as Batman Beyond has to be one of the most weirdly misconstrued concepts for a legacy character I've very seen. And it's weird because from most accounts the actual writing was good on the book. It's just that the basic idea of taking a flawed bad-future version of Tim Drake and then sticking him in a bad-future version of Terry McGinnis's world wearing Terry's suit was just an absurd set-up. I'd struggle to see how even crazy fanfiction writers would conceive that idea. And yet, the strength of the title's name and writing kept it above other competitors, including RHATO.

----------


## DragonPiece

> There's a precedent for an evil Tim as Batman (Geoff Johns's Titans of Tomorrow), a good Tim as Batman (the Beyond-esque preview from Red Robin, the appearance with a Batwoman Cassandra Cain in the Solo series), and a ruthless but necessary Tim (a hallucination from the Lemire-penned Superboy series).


Isn't Tynion a big fan of Geoff's TT run? Maybe there is a connection.


Also I gotta wonder if this will connect at all to futures end tim

----------


## Pohzee

I'm not sure that this dystopian Batman will be Tim, but I'm fairly sure that it will be the same "Batman" attacking him on the cover of 'Tec 967.

----------


## Assam

> I'm not sure that this dystopian Batman will be Tim, but I'm fairly sure that it will be the "Batman" attacking him on the cover of 'Tec 967.


Of course! How stupid of some of us to think that Tim's "team" in LPoL would have the YJ4 or potentially the Doomsdays. 

Obviously the team is going to consist of : RedRobin Tim, Batman Tim, Batman Beyond Tim, and probably some version of 90's Tim.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'm generally wary of Tim being batman. 

To me it should only be used in dystopian narratives, since I don't think Tim has that IT factor that would allow him to be Batman and not go too dark.

----------


## TheCape

Seeing the dysotopian future of Titans of Tomorrow and what he almost did to Boomerang in RR#26. has always make me think if Tim could actually be a lot more loose in his morals about killing enemies when is necesary, unlike Bruce or Dick.




> I'm generally wary of Tim being batman.
> 
> To me it should only be used in dystopian narratives, since I don't think Tim has that IT factor that would allow him to be Batman and not go too dark.


I usually see that scenario as Tim losing his inner conflict and becoming in what he didn't want to personally.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Annie

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

Sooo....


Fascist Batman Tim Drake confirmed. And he's got a major hatred for the Colony. It sure feels like they're embracing the idea that Tim has some control freak tendencies that he'll be struggling with after his return. 

Please reference his Red Robin solo as being back in continuity.

----------


## TheCape

> Sooo....
> 
> 
> Fascist Batman Tim Drake confirmed. And he's got a major hatred for the Colony. It sure feels like they're embracing the idea that Tim has some control freak tendencies that he'll be struggling with after his return.
> 
> Please reference his Red Robin solo as being back in continuity.


Really?, cool, that always has been my idea of an evil Tim.

I agreed with you about the Red Robin series, too  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Not sure if I want them to bring _Red Robin_ back into continuity right now. Mostly because we all know they'd skim around the Cass guest spots and say everything BUT those are canon, and that'd piss me off.

----------


## godisawesome

They'd also have to discount all the stuff with Steph and Babs. And that's a good chunk of the old Robin solo as well.

I really wish they'd just do something crazy like let Tim recover all his memories from Pre-Flashpoint, and just have his competing memories from two separate timelines play into his characterization.

----------


## DragonPiece

yeah, it simply wouldn't make sense having any red robin stories in continuity

----------


## millernumber1

> They'd also have to discount all the stuff with Steph and Babs. And that's a good chunk of the old Robin solo as well.
> 
> I really wish they'd just do something crazy like let Tim recover all his memories from Pre-Flashpoint, and just have his competing memories from two separate timelines play into his characterization.


Yeah. We're coming up on Doomsday Clock, which I believe will be the Rebirth resolution, so I wish they'd get started on whatever it is they're going to do.

AND not have it crap all over the people who already had it crappy.

----------


## Caivu

timthumb-2.jpg

DETECTIVE COMICS #968

Written by JAMES TYNION IV
Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER

A LONELY PLACE OF LIVING finale! Tim Drake is back on Earth  but if the deadly threat he brought back with him from outside of time has its way, it wont be for longand this shadowy figure wants to take one of Batmans team down with him, too! Everything Tim died for the first time is at risk, if he cant survive this attack!

On sale NOVEMBER 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Katana500

> timthumb-2.jpg
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


Looks exciting!  :Smile:  I cant wait!

----------


## Assam

Soooooo, Tim's bringing back Evil Future Batman Tim with him, and he's going to try to kill Kate. Got it. 

Honestly, the only thing surprising here is that Steph is on the cover. And with Tim back, that means we may very well have an 8 person team going into the next arc. OYE! 

Also, I REALLY hope Tim wasn't put in limbo for a year just to set-up this next arc of 'Tec, and is actually going to contribute something big to the Rebirth plot from all of this.

----------


## Caivu

> Soooooo, Tim's bringing back Evil Future Batman Tim with him, and he's going to try to kill Kate. Got it.


That's an assumption and you know it. A reasonable one maybe, but still.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Soooooo, Tim's bringing back Evil Future Batman Tim with him, and he's going to try to kill Kate. Got it. 
> 
> Honestly, the only thing surprising here is that Steph is on the cover. And with Tim back, that means we may very well have an 8 person team going into the next arc. OYE! 
> 
> Also, I REALLY hope Tim wasn't put in limbo for a year just to set-up this next arc of 'Tec, and is actually going to contribute something big to the Rebirth plot from all of this.


It wont have anything to do with Rebirth I bet.

----------


## TheCape

> Soooooo, Tim's bringing back Evil Future Batman Tim with him, and he's going to try to kill Kate. Got it.
> 
> Honestly, the only thing surprising here is that Steph is on the cover. And with Tim back, that means we may very well have an 8 person team going into the next arc. OYE!
> 
> Also, I REALLY hope Tim wasn't put in limbo for a year just to set-up this next arc of 'Tec, and is actually going to contribute something big to the Rebirth plot from all of this.


Well dude, it made sense, DC would never portrayed Batman as evil and Dick is like pure hope this days or something (whatever Seely was trying to sell in Grayson), Jason being the bad guy is too obvious (and very last universe :Smile: ), Damian is busy being Terry's archnemesis in BB, so that let us with Tim being the bad guy. 

Well the other option is Stepth, but we know that she wasn't a Robin  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Well dude, it made sense, DC would never portrayed Batman as evil and Dick is like pure hope this days or something (whatever Seely was trying to sell in Grayson), Jason being the bad guy is too obvious (and very last universe), Damian is busy being Terry's archnemesis in BB, so that let us with Tim being the bad guy.


And DC now knows better (Hopefully) than to nonsensically make Cass a villain. 





> Well the other option is Stepth, but we know that she isn't a Robin


*Gives the middle finger salute.*

Really though, how hilarious would it be to see a dystopian future ruled by  an evil version of Batman who made her original costume eggplant because purple would have been dumb.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I think Beyond Damian,Nightwings upcoming mini and this upcoming Tim story prove that making someone a bad guy isn't a bad idea. Cassandra's downfall had nothing to do with her being evil.

Regardless where did you get the Tec solicit.

----------


## Assam

> I think Beyond Damian,Nightwings upcoming mini and this upcoming Tim story prove that making someone a bad guy isn't a bad idea. Cassandra's downfall had nothing to do with her being evil.


Well 1) Notice how none of those are the main timeline versions of those characters, and 2) I agree that it COULD have worked (temporarily) had Beechen done any research whatsoever and not gotten literally everything wrong.

----------


## adrikito

> Sooo....
> 
> 
> Fascist Batman Tim Drake confirmed. And he's got a major hatred for the Colony. *It sure feels like they're embracing the idea that Tim has some control freak tendencies that he'll be struggling with after his return.* 
> 
> Please reference his Red Robin solo as being back in continuity.


and Damian is a villain in *Batman Beyond*  and in *Injustice*... and Dick in that of New Order..

This is not the first time that Tim is one evil batman... I heard about one old Teen Titan saga, all the team anti-heroes/villains in one future..

----------


## TheCape

> And DC now knows better (Hopefully) than to nonsensically make Cass a villain.


That's because she wasn't a Robin, just Batgirl  :Big Grin: . Last time DC just wanted some dragon lady with daddy issue to be Tim's new nemesis and Cassandra just happened to be the closest that in the minds of DC  :Wink: 




> Really though, how hilarious would it be to see a dystopian future ruled by an evil version of Batman who made her original costume eggplant because purple would have been dumb.


I think that i read a fanfiction like that once.




> I think Beyond Damian,Nightwings upcoming mini and this upcoming Tim story prove that making someone a bad guy isn't a bad idea. Cassandra's downfall had nothing to do with her being evil.


I think that every characther is fair game to get killed, turning evil or having 180s personality change, if you have a good story and reasons to do it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> They'd also have to discount all the stuff with Steph and Babs. And that's a good chunk of the old Robin solo as well.
> 
> I really wish they'd just do something crazy like let Tim recover all his memories from Pre-Flashpoint, and just have his competing memories from two separate timelines play into his characterization.


Ultimately this is what I'd want. 

Give the kid his parents back, let him remember losing those parents, and STILL make him choose to put superheroing over spending as much time as possible with them because its the right thing to do.

----------


## Red obin

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


Holy hell this looks amazing. That cover is great and I literally can't wait at this point.

----------


## Aioros22

Tim totally saw the Darkwarrior Duck two-part.

----------


## godisawesome

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


Okay, as much as there is a symmetrical logic to this "deadly theat he brought back with him from outside of time" = Batwoman's Fascist Tim, I do detect some elements of the summary and the events on Batwoman that run counter to that idea.

First off, from the Batwoman story's structure and potential for spinning off into TEC, the threat of Tim turning into Fascist Batman is one that clearly only occurs after Tim returns, so the dramatic potential for Kate trying to prevent Fascist Batman from existing requires Kate and Tim to be largely unaware of Fascist Batman. Not that they couldn't do a Future Me Scares Me story; Titans Tomorrow tried to set up that idea in its sequel, suggesting that Tomorrow!Tim was quite capable of pushing the younger Tim into becoming him despite younger Tim finding him repulsive. It's just that the dialogue and monologues in Batwoman today imply that Kate, acting as Tim's mentor, somehow pushed him into accepting his paranoia and control freak tendencies. That feels like a set-up for internal conflict after Tim gets back, and I consider the Tomorrow Titans sequel to kind of stink, so I feel trying a self-fulfilling prophesy is less likely.

I can see the "one of Batman's team down too!" person being Batwoman, I just think it would be one of those frustrating time traveling stories if they did that.

Second, that description feels to me more like Tim's unleashed an enemy of a TEC team member, or is being pursued by somebody who is an enforcer of Oz's goals, and _maybe_ set against one of the other New 52ed team members. It'd fit if Oz's "Tim is doing things he shouldn't do" goal was tied to Steph, Jean Paul or Cass as well. And you want to play with meta-commentary? Have an antagonist motivated by hating fan-favorites who editorial didn't like.

----------


## millernumber1

> Okay, as much as there is a symmetrical logic to this "deadly theat he brought back with him from outside of time" = Batwoman's Fascist Tim, I do detect some elements of the summary and the events on Batwoman that run counter to that idea.
> 
> First off, from the Batwoman story's structure and potential for spinning off into TEC, the threat of Tim turning into Fascist Batman is one that clearly only occurs after Tim returns, so the dramatic potential for Kate trying to prevent Fascist Batman from existing requires Kate and Tim to be largely unaware of Fascist Batman. Not that they couldn't do a Future Me Scares Me story; Titans Tomorrow tried to set up that idea in its sequel, suggesting that Tomorrow!Tim was quite capable of pushing the younger Tim into becoming him despite younger Tim finding him repulsive. It's just that the dialogue and monologues in Batwoman today imply that Kate, acting as Tim's mentor, somehow pushed him into accepting his paranoia and control freak tendencies. That feels like a set-up for internal conflict after Tim gets back, and I consider the Tomorrow Titans sequel to kind of stink, so I feel trying a self-fulfilling prophesy is less likely.
> 
> I can see the "one of Batman's team down too!" person being Batwoman, I just think it would be one of those frustrating time traveling stories if they did that.
> 
> Second, that description feels to me more like Tim's unleashed an enemy of a TEC team member, or is being pursued by somebody who is an enforcer of Oz's goals, and _maybe_ set against one of the other New 52ed team members. It'd fit if Oz's "Tim is doing things he shouldn't do" goal was tied to Steph, Jean Paul or Cass as well. And you want to play with meta-commentary? Have an antagonist motivated by hating fan-favorites who editorial didn't like.


Well, we do have the mysterious disappearance of Tim in Batman Beyond, too.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Currently reading Robin Annual 2 (from 1993 collected in _Robin Volume 3 Solo_) and I always like when they show you a characters room or whats on his bookshelf to flesh out a character. In Tim's room (page 24, written by Chuck Dixon) I spotted Nirvana Nevermind on a poster and two novels: White Jazz from James Ellroy and Silence of the Lambs.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


Not exactly what i've been waiting for, my trust in Tynion is starting to fade away.
Chuck Dixon where are you, Tim desperatly needs you!

----------


## TheCape

> Not exactly what i've been waiting for, my trust in Tynion is starting to fade away.
> Chuck Dixon where are you, Tim desperatly needs you!


He is just in the other room writting Bane:Conquest :Smile:

----------


## Dataweaver

So, the deadly threat that Tim brought back with him is _ Chuck Dixon_? I didn't see _that_ coming…  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## oasis1313

> So, the deadly threat that Tim brought back with him is _ Chuck Dixon_? I didn't see _that_ coming…


The deadly threat is those cut-out thigh holes.  Reminds me of Cher.  Oh, and you guys KNOW it's bad when I can think of more glory for Tim than Tynion can.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

Those Blüdhaven issues in Robin and Batgirl were surprisingly well written because of scenes like that; the writers kept on pulling back from the (frankly kind of asinine) action of Penguin taking over Blockbuster's power vacuum to show Tim and Cass in downtime in Blüdhaven and actually established a fascinating rapport between them alongside their contrasting philosophies.

Stuff like that is why the Bat books could shake off a horrible crossover and keep on trucking.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


This whole story sounds like a massive disappointment. None of the solicits talk about his character, it's all about the secret's of Oz's base or some mysterious threat chasing Tim or something. I was hoping for a semi-reboot of Tim's character with this story, but that's not what it looks like.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This whole story sounds like a massive disappointment. None of the solicits talk about his character, it's all about the secret's of Oz's base or some mysterious threat chasing Tim or something. I was hoping for a semi-reboot of Tim's character with this story, but that's not what it looks like.


Nice to see you again Atlanta96

----------


## Atlanta96

> Nice to see you again Atlanta96


Thanks, but I hope that wasn't meant to be sarcastic.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Thanks, but I hope that wasn't meant to be sarcastic.


Lol, definitely not. I enjoy our discussions.

----------


## Dataweaver

Has anyone done an issue-by-issue comparison between the upcoming Lonely Place of Living covers and the original Lonely Place of Dying covers? I'm pretty sure all of the upcoming covers are homages to the covers of Tim's origin story.

As for the upcoming story, I'm keeping an open mind. I'll admit to being a bit worried; but Tynion(sp?) has done a reasonable job with Tim thus far, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Has anyone done an issue-by-issue comparison between the upcoming Lonely Place of Living covers and the original Lonely Place of Dying covers? I'm pretty sure all of the upcoming covers are homages to the covers of Tim's origin story.

----------


## TheCape

So this is just something that i wanted to say, i think that Tim's codename "Red Robin", works just fine, he doesn't needs to change it, nobody had a problem with it Pre-Flashpoint and nobody has a problem with it now, is silly and people make jokes about it, sure, but that happens to almost every supehero out there, how many times has people had called Superman's secret identity lame with the "Clark Ketting" jokes for example, hell i didn't found that Red Robin was a restaurant until a year ago i still don't seeing the big issue with it.

----------


## TheCape

Also, Tim and Dick are probably more alike than their fans would like to admit and both Tim and Dick are more similar to Bruce that some people realized, but they are enought differences beetween then to not make then redundant. 

Just something that i wanted to comment.

----------


## Atlanta96

Red Robin isn't that marketable of a name. The people working on superhero shows, games, merchandise etc aren't going to look at "Red Robin" and see any potential in that. It simultaneously separates him from the Robin identity, but also prevents him from ever truly moving on from it. The name has got to go.

----------


## Alycat

Isn't the person in front of the old cover Dick and Tim in the back? If Dick isn't in this issue then I'm already annoyed.

----------


## godisawesome

It would be better to have big brother there when Tim comes back, but at least we're looking at 4 Batfamily members being there from TEC.

And I still don't see any big problem with the Red Robin alias. Its hybrid nature cuts both ways in pros and cons; it may be a mere derivation of Robin, but Robin is already a major part of pop-culture.

The bigger issue with the identity to me is how we're supposed to see it. Put him in a cowl and make it his graduation? Okay. That's worked. Making it just be a tiny nominal difference while still treating him as Robin? Doesn't work.

----------


## TheCape

I was seeing the DLC's of Arkham Knight and holy shit i think that they inverted Dick and Tim personality, i mean Nigthwing is supposed to be witty, but not to that level.

----------


## oasis1313

> Isn't the person in front of the old cover Dick and Tim in the back? If Dick isn't in this issue then I'm already annoyed.


Dick won't be in the issue.

----------


## Pohzee

> I was seeing the DLC's of Arkham Knight and holy shit i think that they inverted Dick and Tim personality, i mean Nigthwing is supposed to be witty, but not to that level.


Dick's been pretty quippy in recent years under King and Seeley's pen. Definitely more so than Tim has been.

----------


## TheCape

> Dick's been pretty quippy in recent years under King and Seeley's pen. Definitely more so than Tim has been.


Oh yeah i know, i'm not very fond of that charatherization, it got old really fast, ironically i like a good chunk about that book that doesn't include Dick.

----------


## Alycat

> Dick won't be in the issue.


Got my boos ready.




> Dick's been pretty quippy in recent years under King and Seeley's pen. Definitely more so than Tim has been.


Even before that with Higgins. Or for some people before that when Damian came around .

----------


## yohyoi

> I was seeing the DLC's of Arkham Knight and holy shit i think that they inverted Dick and Tim personality, i mean Nigthwing is supposed to be witty, but not to that level.


Dick is witty and funny as hell. He is the master of one-liners. Someones gotta make the jokes in the Dynamic Duo.

----------


## Assam

> Got my boos ready.


I may not be a Dick fan, but even I'm annoyed at how ignored Dick and Tim's relationship has been since Damian came around. (Similar to how I didn't care for Roy being made Jason's best friend when he and Wally were always Dick's bros.) Still, there's zero reason to think Dick will appear in this arc at all. Tynion doesn't even seem interested in re-developing Tim's relationships with anyone besides Bruce and Steph. (Kate's only on that cover because, even if my theory about the changes made to Cass for Kate's benefit were quickly proven wrong, 'Tec is still _her_ book, or at least it's hers more than it is anyone else's.)

----------


## Assam

> Dick is witty and funny as hell. He is the master of one-liners. Someones gotta make the jokes in the Dynamic Duo.


I don't think I could decide who in the BatFam has the best snarky one-liners/ quips/ general sass. I mean, Alfred is obviously #1, but among the others, it really is a tough competition between Dick, Cass, Tim and Steph. 'Sass' Cain obviously takes the crown for me personally, but deciding an objective winner in this area is difficult.

----------


## Alycat

> I may not be a Dick fan, but even I'm annoyed at how ignored Dick and Tim's relationship has been since Damian came around. (Similar to how I didn't care for Roy being made Jason's best friend when he and Wally were always Dick's bros.) Still, there's zero reason to think Dick will appear in this arc at all. Tynion doesn't even seem interested in re-developing Tim's relationships with anyone besides Bruce and Steph. (Kate's only on that cover because, even if my theory about the changes made to Cass for Kate's benefit were quickly proven wrong, 'Tec is still _her_ book, or at least it's hers more than it is anyone else's.)


All of that makes me mad. What's the point of referring to such a good cover and then leaving out one of Tim's defining relationships? As long as Tim stays this way without redevelopment then I'm not going to care doesn't help that Tynion Steph is really hurting me right now so I don't care about her with Tim.

----------


## TheCape

[QUOTE][Dick is witty and funny as hell. He is the master of one-liners. Someones gotta make the jokes in the Dynamic Duo./QUOTE]

I know that Dick is witty, hell taunting enemies is pretty much his thing, but he isn't supossed to be Spiderman levels of witty.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t even think Alfred is that sarcastic, he`s there to mostly point the irony of what they say. Dick is quippy and Jason is sass. There`s hardly even competition for them in those.

----------


## Alycat

[QUOTE=TheCape;3032489]


> [Dick is witty and funny as hell. He is the master of one-liners. Someones gotta make the jokes in the Dynamic Duo./QUOTE]
> 
> I know that Dick is witty, hell taunting enemies is pretty much his thing, but he isn't supossed to be Spiderman levels of witty.


He still isn't though




> I don`t even think Alfred is that sarcastic, he`s there to mostly point the irony of what they say. Dick is quippy and Jason is sass. There`s hardly even competition for them in those.


Sounds about right. Since we're already on it, how would you put Tim?

----------


## Assam

> Dick is quippy and Jason is sass. There`s hardly even competition for them in those.


Disagree. Tim and Steph both give Dick a run for his money on the quip side of things, and Jason's sass doesn't touch the master in that regard. 

become faster.jpg

cass and linda.jpg

cass flying.jpg

And of course, that's just a small sampling.

----------


## Frontier

> I may not be a Dick fan, but even I'm annoyed at how ignored Dick and Tim's relationship has been since Damian came around. (Similar to how I didn't care for Roy being made Jason's best friend when he and Wally were always Dick's bros.) Still, there's zero reason to think Dick will appear in this arc at all. Tynion doesn't even seem interested in re-developing Tim's relationships with anyone besides Bruce and Steph. (Kate's only on that cover because, even if my theory about the changes made to Cass for Kate's benefit were quickly proven wrong, 'Tec is still _her_ book, or at least it's hers more than it is anyone else's.)


I miss Dick and Tim's bond. I mean, they abruptly and briefly touched on it in _Nightwing_ and _Teen Titan_s following Tim's "death" but it just felt hollow  :Frown: . 




> I don't think I could decide who in the BatFam has the best snarky one-liners/ quips/ general sass. I mean, Alfred is obviously #1, but among the others, it really is a tough competition between Dick, Cass, Tim and Steph. 'Sass' Cain obviously takes the crown for me personally, but deciding an objective winner in this area is difficult.


Even Bruce isn't half-bad a with the snark in the right situation or with the right writer...

Also probably good thing Catwoman is only an honorary member of the family because that would make the competition even harder  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Even Bruce isn't half-bad a with the snark in the right situation or with the right writer...


I particularly like it when he references Star Trek most of all. 

waarp seven.JPG

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think I could decide who in the BatFam has the best snarky one-liners/ quips/ general sass. I mean, Alfred is obviously #1, but among the others, it really is a tough competition between Dick, Cass, Tim and Steph. 'Sass' Cain obviously takes the crown for me personally, but deciding an objective winner in this area is difficult.


I think that really depends on the writer and the series. In Titans and Outsiders Dick was for example always quite serious. And I think even back in Cuck Dixons Nightwing he was more serious than in his current series.

----------


## Frontier

> I think that really depends on the writer and the series. In Titans and Outsiders Dick was for example always quite serious. And I think even back in Cuck Dixons Nightwing he was more serious than in his current series.


I think it also depends on what your take on Dick is. 

Either he's a lighter, younger, Batman, or Batman-lite, or an older and more mature (to a degree) Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

> Disagree. Tim and Steph both give Dick a run for his money on the quip side of things, and Jason's sass doesn't touch the master in that regard. 
> 
> become faster.jpg
> 
> cass and linda.jpg
> 
> cass flying.jpg
> 
> And of course, that's just a small sampling.






Child`s play, brah.

----------


## Assam

> Child`s play, brah.


We could

we could.jpg

Do this

do this.jpg

All day

hot for me.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

:Wink:

----------


## Assam

chocolate.jpg

Let's stop clogging up this thread. If you wanna make a "BatFamily Sass Appreciation" thread, go for it.  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

Not that I don't enjoy watching the Batfamily try to out-snark one another through scans, let's try and get back to talking about what's going on with Tim folks  :Smile: .

Edit: Good course correct Assam  :Wink: .

----------


## Atlanta96

Everything going on with Tim right now... is terrible and disappointing. Can we go back to the sassy Bat-Family panels?

----------


## Frontier

> Everything going on with Tim right now... is terrible and disappointing. Can we go back to the sassy Bat-Family panels?


I'm interested in his role in the upcoming arcs (even if I'm disappointed about who he might be bringing back with him)  :Smile: .

----------


## Aioros22

> chocolate.jpg
> 
> Let's stop clogging up this thread. If you wanna make a "BatFamily Sass Appreciation" thread, go for it.




Only because Atlanta asked nicely.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Child`s play, brah.


I always start laughing when I see that panel, good ol Jason.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm interested in his role in the upcoming arcs (even if I'm disappointed about who he might be bringing back with him) .


I'm only interested if it

A) Reverts him to his good old Pre-Flashpoint backstory and characterization.

B) Fixes his relationships with Dick and the rest of the Bat-Family.

C) Brings back the YJ4.

None of those things are going to happen, so why get excited for this nothing if an arc? They kept him in limbo for a year and they aren't doing anything big to make up for it. That sucks.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm only interested if it
> 
> A) Reverts him to his good old Pre-Flashpoint backstory and characterization.
> 
> B) Fixes his relationships with Dick and the rest of the Bat-Family.
> 
> C) Brings back the YJ4.
> 
> None of those things are going to happen, so why get excited for this nothing if an arc? They kept him in limbo for a year and they aren't doing anything big to make up for it. That sucks.


Have we gotten any concrete info on what his role is going to be in the big rebirth shenanigans? I'm still hoping he gets his memories back. That and/or a YJ4 reunion would give me some hope for Tim long term. 

Relationship with the bat fam I can take or leave because that doesn't necessarily require any timeline shenanigans, just competent writing of Tim+batfam over time.

----------


## godisawesome

> chocolate.jpg
> 
> Let's stop clogging up this thread. If you wanna make a "BatFamily Sass Appreciation" thread, go for it.


I do, and I did. (And I'd appreciate it if you guys wouldn't mind reposting some of these scams there)

And no, we don't yet have any concrete information on what exactly Tim's Rebirth return will include. And it would be really awkward and stupid if there was no change.

----------


## nj06

I want Tim to reunite the YJ4 again as well. Add in the current Aqualad and Blue Beetle and bring in Ms. Martian and we can call it a day.

----------


## Sam

So I just started reading Chuck Dixon's Robin series. It has been pretty solid so far, but I just got to the point where I'm stuck in extreme crossover and event tie-in hell, and just wanted to express my frustration over this fact.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> So I just started reading Chuck Dixon's Robin series. It has been pretty solid so far, but I just got to the point where I'm stuck in extreme crossover and event tie-in hell, and just wanted to express my frustration over this fact.


That what put me off the title for a bit.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I want Tim to reunite the YJ4 again as well. Add in the current Aqualad and Blue Beetle and bring in Ms. Martian and we can call it a day.


I agree, and apparently he is returning *alone* in November.

----------


## The Whovian

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


OH YEAH BABY!! My boy Tim is BACK!!  :Big Grin: 

I know some of you may be disappointed in the solits for the issues, but come on! Tim is back!!

----------


## The Whovian

> 


lol!!!!!! That is too funny!

----------


## shadowsgirl

Dick and his little bro Tim

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Jim Gordon, President of the Robin fan-club.

----------


## millernumber1

> Jim Gordon, President of the Robin fan-club.


Is that from Tieri's Gotham Underground? It looks like Jim Calafiore's art.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Is that from Tieri's Gotham Underground? It looks like Jim Calafiore's art.


yep  :Smile:  

10char

----------


## Assam

Apparently, I'm not the only one who got answers from Tynion this weekend! Someone asked him about Tim's status regarding various things brought up in the Nu52. He confirmed that the whole "Witness Protection Tim Drake" thing is no longer canon, and this is the genuine Tim. I didn't _read_ Nu52 TT, but that means the crap Tim did to his parents is also no longer canon, right?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

if the witness protection thing is no longer canon, what is the deal with Tim's parents? Free to come and go as they please? Dead again?

----------


## TheCape

> Apparently, I'm not the only one who got answers from Tynion this weekend! Someone asked him about Tim's status regarding various things brought up in the Nu52. He confirmed that the whole "Witness Protection Tim Drake" thing is no longer canon, and this is the genuine Tim. I didn't read Nu52 TT, but that means the crap Tim did to his parents is also no longer canon, right?


I think that the witness protection angle has his merits, but the way that happened was horrible.

----------


## millernumber1

> Apparently, I'm not the only one who got answers from Tynion this weekend! Someone asked him about Tim's status regarding various things brought up in the Nu52. He confirmed that the whole "Witness Protection Tim Drake" thing is no longer canon, and this is the genuine Tim. I didn't _read_ Nu52 TT, but that means the crap Tim did to his parents is also no longer canon, right?


Oooh, wait, where did that come from? And if it is the case, what's up with his family - I desperately hope that doesn't mean we're going back to "Tim is an orphan again"?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oooh, wait, where did that come from? And if it is the case, what's up with his family - I desperately hope that doesn't mean we're going back to "Tim is an orphan again"?


I agree completely. Offing Tim's parents would be a missed opportunity.

----------


## oasis1313

> I agree completely. Offing Tim's parents would be a missed opportunity.


But then we'd miss on:  "It's Tim WAYNE!!!!!!!"

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> But then we'd miss on:  "It's Tim WAYNE!!!!!!!"


Yeah won't miss that at all.

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah won't miss that at all.


If my father was Jack Drake, i would also want to change my name  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## CPSparkles

> 


Yeah sorry but that is a BS reason for an idea that was in such bad taste.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> I agree completely. Offing Tim's parents would be a missed opportunity.


I'd set it back to pre-Flashpoint.  Maybe let Jack live, but the whole Obeah Man thing, it would have all happened.   It's part of what has defined Tim as a character.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I'd set it back to pre-Flashpoint.  Maybe let Jack live, but the whole Obeah Man thing, it would have all happened.   It's part of what has defined Tim as a character.


I'd be fine with rolling Tim's history back to before Willingham's run: that is, before the setup for War Games and Identity Crisis. Key features: Tim still has immediate family that's alive and well, and Tim hasn't been subjected to a conga line of dead loved ones (Stephanie, Jack Drake, Kon-El, Bart).

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'd be fine with rolling Tim's history back to before Willingham's run: that is, before the setup for War Games and Identity Crisis. Key features: Tim still has immediate family that's alive and well, and Tim hasn't been subjected to a conga line of dead loved ones (Stephanie, Jack Drake, Kon-El, Bart).


Nope. Tim has to remember everything, because everything what happened to him had formed him a better hero. Every loss and every pain is part of his character, without them, he is a completely different person. You can't take his history away, because you take his character development, too. Anyway, Tim's parents are useless at this point, their story is over. The Bat editors wanted to kill Jack in the beginning, but Dixon wanted drama and struggle in Tim's life. Double life, secrets, family drama = interesting stories. Tim is now practically an adult. He lives with Steph and he wants to go to college. He won't live with his parents anymore, and they know he is Red Robin. Why do you want to keep them? If they are alive and they had never died, the whole Red Robin series is non-canon. Their death had a huge impact on Tim, if you take all that away, you end up with New52 Tim 2.0. He won't be the real Tim anymore.

----------


## godisawesome

> Apparently, I'm not the only one who got answers from Tynion this weekend! Someone asked him about Tim's status regarding various things brought up in the Nu52. He confirmed that the whole "Witness Protection Tim Drake" thing is no longer canon, and this is the genuine Tim. I didn't _read_ Nu52 TT, but that means the crap Tim did to his parents is also no longer canon, right?





> if the witness protection thing is no longer canon, what is the deal with Tim's parents? Free to come and go as they please? Dead again?


If this is a confirmation of major changes to Tim's status quo, then yes, Tim should no longer be responsible for ruining his family's life and abdanoning them as a de-facto reward for his actions to try and help Batman. And if they are giving Tim a true Rebirth course correction, than you have to figure they have something clear planned for his history and family now. I'd personally be fine with just going back to the Red Robin status quo from his solo, but I'd also dig it if they had his parents alive, and like others have said, remembers his entire past and has a fixation on preventing what happened before from repeating.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Nope. Tim has to remember everything, because everything what happened to him had formed him a better hero. Every loss and every pain is part of his character, without them, he is a completely different person. You can't take his history away, because you take his character development, too. Anyway, *Tim's parents are useless at this point*, their story is over. The Bat editors wanted to kill Jack in the beginning, but Dixon wanted drama and struggle in Tim's life. Double life, secrets, family drama = interesting stories. Tim is now practically an adult. He lives with Steph and he wants to go to college. He won't live with his parents anymore, and they know he is Red Robin. *Why do you want to keep them? If they are alive and they had never died, the whole Red Robin series is non-canon*. Their death had a huge impact on Tim, if you take all that away, you end up with New52 Tim 2.0. He won't be the real Tim anymore.


Point 1: Tim's parents are only useless if no writer chooses to incorporate them into Tim's story in a meaningful way. It can be done. (On another note, Steph and Tim weren't living together. They have their own places.)

Point 2: Even if they are dead the Red Robin series(Pre-52) would not be cannon to what we have with current Tim. Steph and Cass were a big part of Tim's history Pre-52, and they both have just come back more on the recent side. There's also the fact the Tim's Young Justice teammates are still MIA. Point being, regardless of Tim's parents being alive or not, the Red Robin series can't be cannon to the current line of the DCU. His history is too reliant on characters who; A. recently returned, or B. have still yet to make an appearance.

Sure, you make a good point. All of the tragedy Tim went through Pre-52 made him, which worked for that time. But this is a different Tim, rehashing what we got before seems unnecessary. Really, what would be the point in killing off Tim's parents right now? That would just make him an orphan. We already have Dick, Jason, Cass, and to an extent Steph covering that angle. Heck, you could throw Bruce in while we're at it(That was the makeup of what ignited his crusade).

What's so wrong with someone in the Bat Family having two living parents who are more on the normal side? Killing Tim's parents just makes him like the others, plus what purpose would it serve to current Tim's story? There really aren't any good reasons to off them right now.

----------


## TheCape

I won't complain if his parents were alive again, hell there is still potential that wasn't properly explored before the death of Jack Drake. I just hope that they remenber that

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Point 1: Tim's parents are only useless if no writer chooses to incorporate them into Tim's story in a meaningful way. It can be done. (On another note, Steph and Tim weren't living together. They have their own places.)
> 
> Point 2: Even if they are dead the Red Robin series(Pre-52) would not be cannon to what we have with current Tim. Steph and Cass were a big part of Tim's history Pre-52, and they both have just come back more on the recent side. There's also the fact the Tim's Young Justice teammates are still MIA. Point being, regardless of Tim's parents being alive or not, the Red Robin series can't be cannon to the current line of the DCU. His history is too reliant on characters who; A. recently returned, or B. have still yet to make an appearance.
> 
> Sure, you make a good point. All of the tragedy Tim went through Pre-52 made him, which worked for that time. But this is a different Tim, rehashing what we got before seems unnecessary. Really, what would be the point in killing off Tim's parents right now? That would just make him an orphan. We already have Dick, Jason, Cass, and to an extent Steph covering that angle. Heck, you could throw Bruce in while we're at it(That was the makeup of what ignited his crusade).
> 
> What's so wrong with someone in the Bat Family having two living parents who are more on the normal side? Killing Tim's parents just makes him like the others, plus what purpose would it serve to current Tim's story? There really aren't any good reasons to off them right now.


Right now nothing is canon in Tim's life, because the real Tim had died in 2011. This pretender not the real deal and never will be, because without his real history, origin and personality, he is a totally different person. The only reasonable way would be to get rid of him, and bring back the real Tim from Pre-Flashpoint. And when you kick out this fake version, he could take fake Cass and fake Steph with him. And again, his parents are useless. What are they going to do with them? Use them as hostages, when Tim visits them once a year? Boring! Their time has passed. But you know what? They could live, IF Tim will remember their death and all of the impacts what their death caused. But his New52 parents are fakes just like new Tim. Their lives, personalities and even their appearances are different.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Right now nothing is canon for Tim's life, because the real Tim had died in 2011. This pretender not the real deal and never will be, *because without his real history, origin and personality, he is a totally different person*. The only reasonable way would be to get rid of him, and bring back the real Tim from Pre-Flashpoint. And when you kick out this fake version, he could take fake Cass and fake Steph with him. And again, his parents are useless. What are they going to do with them? Use them as hostages, when Tim visits them once a year? Boring! Their time has passed. But you know what? They could live, IF Tim will remember their death and all of the impacts what their death caused. But his New52 parents are fakes just like new Tim. Their lives, personalities and even their appearances are different.


Isn't that pretty much every character in the New-52/Rebirth era? No character is completely the same as they were Pre-52. Admittedly some changed more than others, some for the better, while others got the short stick. Both Jason and Dick had a lot in their history changed, do you consider them fake as well? I certainly don't.

What use could Tim's parents serve? I can think of a lot actually. They could serve as a link between his normal life and his crime fighting one, that alone could amount to many story possibilities. We've seen Tim at times show a darker side, his parents could be used to help balance Tim's moral compass when faced with trials of distress or uncertainty(this gives him people to go to, to get away from it all) in short giving Tim someone to talk to not tied to his crime fighting activities. They could have a greater purpose than just serving as hostages, all it takes is a good writer.

I'm curious, in your mind what purpose would killing Tim's parents right now serve?  Outside of nostalgic, is there even a good reason for doing so? I certainly don't think so. As I stated before, the Bat Fam is bloated with orphans, having Tim go down that path again at this time is completely unnecessary.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Isn't that pretty much every character in the New-52/Rebirth era? No character is completely the same as they were Pre-52. Admittedly some changed more than others, some for the better, while others got the short stick. Both Jason and Dick had a lot in their history changed, do you consider them fake as well? I certainly don't.
> 
> What use could Tim's parents serve? I can think of a lot actually. They could serve as a link between his normal life and his crime fighting one, that alone could amount to many story possibilities. We've seen Tim at times show a darker side, his parents could be used to help balance Tim's moral compass when faced with trials of distress or uncertainty(this gives him people to go to, to get away from it all) in short giving Tim someone to talk to not tied to his crime fighting activities. They could have a greater purpose than just serving as hostages, all it takes is a good writer.
> 
> I'm curious, in your mind what purpose would killing Tim's parents right now serve?  Outside of nostalgic, is there even a good reason for doing so? I certainly don't think so. As I stated before, the Bat Fam is bloated with orphans, having Tim go down that path again at this time is completely unnecessary.


Yes, all of them fake, but unlike Tim, they didn't lose their entire life. Why do you develop a character for 22 years, if you take away everything from him at the end? Jason won the Rebirth lottery, while Tim totally lost himself. Jason was a bad place before the reboot, so he needed the improvement, but Tim didn't. He was perfectly fine, a deep and complex character whom history was rich and extensive. 
Supportive parents? Please, don't! Maybe it worked with the Kents, but Tim doesn't need this. His father was never supportive anyway. The purpose of killing them is to everything go back how it was before. The New52 was a horrible idea and ruined Tim entirely. Who cares if there are other orphans? We are talking about Tim here. His mindset and personality was fascinating in the Red Robin series. He was willing to cross lines what he would never have done before. He grew up and became his own man with his own methods. His parents would hold him back. And honestly, Jack was always a terrible father, and he was never likeable at all. Tim's mother could have potential, because we barely knew her before she died. I'm not interested in Jack Drake any form.

----------


## KrustyKid

> *Yes, all of them fake*, but unlike Tim, they didn't lose their entire life. Why do you develop a character for 22 years, if you take away everything from him at the end? Jason won the Rebirth lottery, while Tim totally lost himself. Jason was a bad place before the reboot, so he needed the improvement, but Tim didn't. He was perfectly fine, a deep and complex character whom history was rich and extensive. 
> Supportive parents? Please, don't! Maybe it worked with the Kents, but Tim doesn't need this. His father was never supportive anyway. *The purpose of killing them is to everything go back how it was before*. The New52 was a horrible idea and ruined Tim entirely. Who cares if there are other orphans? We are talking about Tim here. His mindset and personality was fascinating in the Red Robin series. He was willing to cross lines what he would never have done before. He grew up and became his own man with his own methods. His parents would hold him back. *And honestly, Jack was always a terrible father, and he was never likeable at all*. Tim's mother could have potential, because we barely knew her before she died. I'm not interested in Jack Drake any form.


Instead of using the word 'fake', how about saying 'different versions', that would be a better way of describing it.

Except killing Tim's parents 'now' would not accomplish that. Like I said before, too much has been changed on the scope of the new-52/Rebirth for Tim to go back to what he was. Offing his parents at this time would only make a darker version of the current Tim. Sorry, but I'll take a hard pass on that. There would be no guarantee he would go down the same path that he did before.

That was Pre-52 Jack, the current one is not the same.

I loved Pre-52 Tim just as much as the next guy, but too much has changed for that 'Tim' to exist given the new history throughout the DCU. Your only reason for wanting Tim's parents dead seems squarely based on nostalgic.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> If this is a confirmation of major changes to Tim's status quo, then yes, Tim should no longer be responsible for ruining his family's life and abdanoning them as a de-facto reward for his actions to try and help Batman. And if they are giving Tim a true Rebirth course correction, than you have to figure they have something clear planned for his history and family now. I'd personally be fine with just going back to the Red Robin status quo from his solo, but* I'd also dig it if they had his parents alive, and like others have said, remembers his entire past and has a fixation on preventing what happened before from repeating.*


Yup, and maybe not even fixated on preventing it, but more struggling between the balance of taking advantage of this incredible gift the universe has given him while still taking up his responsibility as a hero.

Feel like the key for Tim is the spideyesque with no power comes great responsibility, and this would be a good way to get that back into focus.




> I loved Pre-52 Tim just as much as the next guy, but too much has changed for that 'Tim' to exist given the new history throughout the DCU. Your only reason for wanting Tim's parents dead seems squarely based on nostalgic.


Right, this is a chance to have our cake and eat it to. I want the mental experience and maturity that comes from Pre52 Tim. However I also want some more of the upbeat spidermanish hero/life balance that made the Dixon series great.

----------


## Assam

What I Want: Everything back the way it was Pre-Nu52. 

What I Want being realistic: That idea of Tim's parents being alive with him remembering both of his lives is really damn cool, and opens up a ton of potential for stories. Also, remove tech master Tim (Hell, maybe make a story out of it, where the sheer amount of knowledge he has between his two lives is too much for him and through some sci-fi mumbo jumbo he has to decide what he wants removed: His tech knowledge or everything else), and make him Gotham's SpiderMan again, with a heavy emphasis on civilian life. 

Want I Think: We all saw the solicit for Batman and The Signal. I was skeptical before, but yeah, DUKE is Gotham's Spider-Man now, and Tim is being left as...well, if the newest issue of 'Tec is anything to go off of, even without what's happening in Batwoman, a guy who wants to take over the world.

----------


## RedBird

> Apparently, I'm not the only one who got answers from Tynion this weekend! Someone asked him about Tim's status regarding various things brought up in the Nu52. He confirmed that the whole "Witness Protection Tim Drake" thing is no longer canon, and this is the genuine Tim. I didn't _read_ Nu52 TT, but that means the crap Tim did to his parents is also no longer canon, right?


Huh, I'm guessing that means his real name is Tim Drake again and not Alvin Draper? Or whatever the hell it was before being put into WP so to speak. Considering that was the messiest plot point of all and one that made Tim look horribly reckless, I'm glad its gone. Still, I kinda hope his parents or at least his dad is still around.

----------


## Korath

> Want I Think: We all saw the solicit for Batman and The Signal. I was skeptical before, but yeah, DUKE is Gotham's Spider-Man now, and Tim is being left as...well, if the newest issue of 'Tec is anything to go off of, even without what's happening in Batwoman, a guy who wants to take over the world.


To be fair, this course of action has been hinted since just after his "death". In the flashback had in an earlier issue of 'Tec, Tim said that he wanted to develop a "Bat-brand" to be able to intervene at a larger scale that what Batman do, and it was obvious that, while good on paper, this idea could backfire or be the innocent first step toward dictatorship. Batwoman's #6 only seems to confirm that it's a serious danger for Tim character, but I think it's a certainty that he'll manage to avoid it in main continuity. I hope.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Instead of using the word 'fake', how about saying 'different versions', that would be a better way of describing it.
> 
> Except killing Tim's parents 'now' would not accomplish that. Like I said before, too much has been changed on the scope of the new-52/Rebirth for Tim to go back to what he was. Offing his parents at this time would only make a darker version of the current Tim. Sorry, but I'll take a hard pass on that. There would be no guarantee he would go down the same path that he did before.
> 
> That was Pre-52 Jack, the current one is not the same.
> 
> I loved Pre-52 Tim just as much as the next guy, but too much has changed for that 'Tim' to exist given the new history throughout the DCU. Your only reason for wanting Tim's parents dead seems squarely based on nostalgic.


I guess we just need to agree to disagree.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Here is an old interview with Chuck Dixon, where he talks about the parallel between Tim and Peter Paker. 

http://ozandends.blogspot.hu/2009/04...pider-man.html

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Not at all surprised. Dixon's Robin was ultimate spider-man before there was ultimate spider-man.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Steph may not be a boy and she may be older than Tim, but she's still more of a Robin analogue to Mikey than Damian.

Also, f**k that first comic.And that last chart for that matter.

----------


## Aahz

> Yes, all of them fake, but unlike Tim, they didn't lose their entire life. Why do you develop a character for 22 years, if you take away everything from him at the end? Jason won the Rebirth lottery, while Tim totally lost himself. Jason was a bad place before the reboot, so he needed the improvement, but Tim didn't. He was perfectly fine, a deep and complex character whom history was rich and extensive.


In Jasons case I would actually consider the version we got from somewhere in the middle of countdown till flashpoint as the "Fake". The version we have now is imo a good continuation of Jasons development from UTRH till the early issues of countdown.

----------


## Aahz

> Steph may not be a boy and she may be older than Tim, but she's still more of a Robin analogue to Mikey than Damian.
> 
> Also, f**k that first comic.And that last chart for that matter.


I would go with Carrie as Mikey equvalent, she younger than the others and her hair has the perfect color.

----------


## Dataweaver

But Carrie was never Robin.

----------


## TheCape

> In Jasons case I would actually consider the version we got from somewhere in the middle of countdown till flashpoint as the "Fake". The version we have now is imo a good continuation of Jasons development from UTRH till the early issues of countdown.


That changes was always so weird for me, because i don't see Winnick Jason working with any hero in any kind of long term.

----------


## Assam

> But Carrie was never Robin.


Yeah, I like Carrie, but she has as much claim to the mantle as Robin-Bot. Actually less so since Robin-Bot was canon.

----------


## Dataweaver

Remember that this is Tim's thread. That said, the post-FC Jason took the odd route of incorporating the pre-Crisis Jason's hair color while reducing his personality to a one-dimensional rebel. He's best forgotten.

----------


## TheCape

> Remember that this is Tim's thread. That said, the post-FC Jason took the odd route of incorporating the pre-Crisis Jason's hair color while reducing his personality to a one-dimensional rebel. He's best forgotten.


That's the problem with Morrison, his style is known for being overdramatic and unpredictable, but sometimes comes at expense of charactherization (arguably Dick suffered for that too in his B&R run).

Going back to Tim, i had been reading his run since the beggining until just right before No Man's Land and i had to say, his sleeping habits are very similar to mine, he can fell in any moment and place too  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dataweaver

My jobs have similar hours to Tim's, so I can definitely relate to his sleeping habits.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Steph may not be a boy and she may be older than Tim, but she's still more of a Robin analogue to Mikey than Damian.
> 
> Also, f**k that first comic.And that last chart for that matter.


Yep, Steph=Mikey

----------


## Frontier

I just need to ask, were the Batman/Ninja Turtles connection as prevalent before the official crossovers  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Assam

> I just need to ask, were the Batman/Ninja Turtles connection as prevalent before the official crossovers ?


They've been around since Damian.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

> I just need to ask, were the Batman/Ninja Turtles connection as prevalent before the official crossovers ?


That was a good crossover  Damian and Batman+ Ninja turtles = Bliss.
 Are there any crossovers where the other boys meet the Turtles?

----------


## scary harpy

> 


This makes me think Tim would look good in purple.

----------


## KrustyKid

> That was a good crossover  Damian and Batman+ Ninja turtles = Bliss.
>  Are there any crossovers where the other boys meet the Turtles?


I do not believe so, at least not to my knowledge.

----------


## Assam

> This makes me think Tim would look good in purple.


Steph: "God you look terrible." 

Tim: "What?! I'm wearing the same color as you." 

Steph: "No, you're wearing purple. I'm wearing eggplant."

----------


## shadowsgirl

I love the fact that Marcus To is such a Tim fanboy. He still draws him in his spare time to this day, and he has a Red Robin hoodie, too.







Here is an interview with him. 

http://wethenerdy.com/marcus-to-interview/

----------


## Red obin

Is lonely place of dying collected anywhere?

----------


## Dataweaver

Yes, there's a TPB of it.

----------


## Red obin

> Yes, there's a TPB of it.


Recently though.

Also I hope the other lonely place of living covers reflect the lonely place of dying covers.

----------


## Pohzee

> Is lonely place of dying collected anywhere?


It's collected in the back of recent recollections of Death in the Family.

----------


## KrustyKid

431fd3e312fb48fedd8d8ba6cd8ce75c--batman-dc-comics-batman-comic-art.jpg

Bat Boys

----------


## Aioros22

Pardon my French but...

_"You just came in the wrong neighbourhood mutafacka"_

----------


## Assam

> _"You just came in the wrong neighbourhood mutafacka"_


This quote reminds me of this: 

protective 1.jpg

protective 2.jpg

----------


## Jadeb

> I love the fact that Marcus To is such a Tim fanboy. He still draws him in his spare time to this day, and he has a Red Robin hoodie, too.


He is great at drawing him, too. Up there with Grummettt and Ringo as Tim's best artists, IMO.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> He is great at drawing him, too. Up there with Grummettt and Ringo as Tim's best artists, IMO.


Yeah, Marcus To's art is really pretty. I hope someday he will draw Tim in his solo series again.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Seriously Tim, could you be even more nerdish?  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim, Steph and Ariana

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Aahz

> 


Oh the kids that died because Tim had to stay in character ...

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Oh the kids that died because Tim had to stay in character ...


That was really sad, but Tim and Ives couldn't know what will happen to poor guy, when they walked away.

----------


## DragonPiece

what comic is this?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> what comic is this?


The posted images or the death of Philmont? The pages with Steph and Ariana are from Robin #56. Philmont's death happened in Robin #59 and the story continued in issue 60 and 61.

----------


## KrustyKid

aa9a49d21bfa8df40611400f5957b3c6--robin-dc-batman-robin.jpg

Old school Tim

----------


## Aahz

> That was really sad, but Tim and Ives couldn't know what will happen to poor guy, when they walked away.


It was iirc quite clear that he would probaly get beat up. 

And it actually hard for me to imagine that any other Batfamily member would have walked away like Tim. The Death of Philmont was imo one of the biggest failures a Batfamily member is guilty of, but it was never really made a big thing.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It was iirc quite clear that he would probaly get beat up. 
> 
> And it actually hard for me to imagine that any other Batfamily member would have walked away like Tim. The Death of Philmont was imo one of the biggest failures a Batfamily member is guilty of, but it was never really made a big thing.


Tim wanted to help, but Ives stopped him. Tim always protected his secret, which was really wise, because Scarab and later Ulysses Armstrong tried to find him, too. They started to kill teenage boys, whom looked like Tim. Tim was never on Scarab list, because he kept a low profile at school. Scarab and Ulysses chose athletes, martial artists or talented students, because they thought Robin need to be the best in everything. Anyway, Tim blamed himself for Philmont's death, but again, he couldn't know what will happen. And as he said: Robin would have done something. But Robin wasn't there.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I just picked up a handful of Red Robin issues I was missing at a local shop for $1 each.   To did a great job with the character.   Reading 26 was sad knowing it was the last we'd get of classic Tim and the New 52 garbage that was to follow.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Seriously Lobdell? You destroyed Tim, screwed up his origin, and now you're giving the circus experience about Dick to Jason? Dick was Tim's hero long before they met, not Jason's. Unbelievable! Tim had gone through hell because of Lobdell. He had done so much damage with the YJ4 generation that they were exiled from the comics. And now this? You really want to take away everything from Tim, don't you?

----------


## Assam

Copied from the Annual thread: 




> Didn't bother picking up the annual, but I did just see on the Tim thread that part of his backstory was lifted and given to Jason. 
> 
> After all this time left in bewilderment, it's good to know that for as well written as the current RHatO book has been, Lobdell is still awful. (As a writer of course)

----------


## Aioros22

> Seriously Lobdell? You destroyed Tim, screwed up his origin, and now you're giving the circus experience about Dick to Jason? Dick was Tim's hero long before they met, not Jason's. Unbelievable! Tim had gone through hell because of Lobdell. He had done so much damage with the YJ4 generation that they were exiled from the comics. And now this? You really want to take away everything from Tim, don't you?


How much do you think Tim lift from Pre Crisis Jay?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> How much do you think Tim lift from Pre Crisis Jay?


For example?

----------


## Alycat

> Seriously Lobdell? You destroyed Tim, screwed up his origin, and now you're giving the circus experience about Dick to Jason? Dick was Tim's hero long before they met, not Jason's. Unbelievable! Tim had gone through hell because of Lobdell. He had done so much damage with the YJ4 generation that they were exiled from the comics. And now this? You really want to take away everything from Tim, don't you?


To be fair circus stuff was Jason's before it was Tim's.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> To be fair circus stuff was Jason's before it was Tim's.


Really? Dick was Jason's hero? Jason saw Dick as a kid in the circus? It's from Tim's fricking origin!!!!!

----------


## Assam

> To be fair circus stuff was Jason's before it was Tim's.


Tim was never part of the circus like Jason was Pre-Crisis, he was just a spectator who saw Dick there. Dick was _Tim's_ hero, whereas I'm hearing now that they're making Dick _Jason's_ hero. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. DID Jason idolize Dick in any Pre-Crisis stories?)

----------


## Alycat

> Really? Dick was Jason's hero? Jason saw Dick as a kid in the circus? It's from Tim fricking origin!!!!!


I mean yes. It was Pre Crises but I did say technically to be fair.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Really? Dick was Jason's hero? Jason saw Dick as a kid in the circus? It's from Tim fricking origin!!!!!


Know your comic history. Jason's original origin had him meeting Dick at the circus. DICK is the one who originally wanted to adopt him. All Lobdell did was reincorporate some of Jason's original history. So, no, Jason didn't "steal" anything from Tim when Jason had that history first.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim was never part of the circus like Jason was Pre-Crisis, he was just a spectator who saw Dick there. Dick was _Tim's_ hero, whereas I'm hearing now that they're making Dick _Jason's_ hero. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. DID Jason idolize Dick in any Pre-Crisis stories?)

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Tim was never part of the circus like Jason was Pre-Crisis, he was just a spectator who saw Dick there. Dick was _Tim's_ hero, whereas I'm hearing now that they're making Dick _Jason's_ hero. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. DID Jason idolize Dick in any Pre-Crisis stories?)


Dick met Jason first and introduced him to Bruce. Dick wanted to adopt Jason.

_Jason Todd was the son of circus acrobats Joe and Trina Todd, who were inspired by Flying Graysons and worked in the Sloan Circus. The Flying Todds were introduced to Dick Grayson from the Flying Graysons by their mutual friend, Waldo the Clown. In turn, Dick Grayson introduced the Todd to his guardian, Bruce Wayne.[1] The Sloan Circus was being blackmailed by Killer Croc[2] and the Todds volunteered to help Robin find the criminal. Unfortunately, they were killed by Croc, leaving Jason as an orphan. At first, Dick wanted to adopt him, but Bruce had other plans in mind.[3]_

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Know your comic history. Jason's original origin had him meeting Dick at the circus. DICK is the one who originally wanted to adopt him. All Lobdell did was reincorporate some of Jason's original history. So, no, Jason didn't "steal" anything from Tim when Jason had that history first.


This is not Pre-Crisis Jason. He was never a circus acrobat. Here Jason is a spectator who is watching Dick as a kid. Now Dick suddenly became Jason's hero, and Jason admire him for years. This is Tim's story.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> This is not Pre-Crisis Jason. He was never a circus acrobat. Here Jason is a spectator who is watching Dick as a kid. Now Dick suddenly became Jason's hero, and Jason admire him for years. This is Tim's story.


Lobdell is someone who likes to bring in bits of Jason's background, so, yes, if he wants to call back to Jason's original history as a character, he's going to do it.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Seriously Lobdell? You destroyed Tim, screwed up his origin, and now you're giving the circus experience about Dick to Jason? Dick was Tim's hero long before they met, not Jason's. Unbelievable! Tim had gone through hell because of Lobdell. He had done so much damage with the YJ4 generation that they were exiled from the comics. And now this? You really want to take away everything from Tim, don't you?


Can jason and tim not both admire dick? Why does it have to be one or the other?

----------


## Alycat

> Can jason and tim not both admire dick? Why does it have to be one or the other?


Tim and Jason gonna have to go into the cage and fight for  Dick now. Hopefully in an annual.

----------


## kiwiliko

> This is not Pre-Crisis Jason. He was never a circus acrobat. Here Jason is a spectator who is watching Dick as a kid. Now Dick suddenly became Jason's hero, and Jason admire him for years. This is Tim's story.


Tim's story would be being there to watch the fall. Neither are mutually exclusive and its entirely reasonable both Tim and Jason have visited the circus just at different points in time. If anything I think the intention of the scene was actually to hint for something involving Jasons dad because the lifting two tickets thing for his son is probably the most interesting amount of characterization I've seen for Willis out of any Jason origins story.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim and Jason gonna have to go into the cage and fight for  Dick now. Hopefully in an annual.


Lol. I'll get my popcorn ready. I love Tim, but I'd have my money on Jason in that scenario.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Can jason and tim not both admire dick? Why does it have to be one or the other?


Because it was Tim's story. Lobdell took away every unique thing from Tim. Just think about it, if Tim will get a new origin and he will stealing the wheels off of the Batmobile, then it won't be just Jason's story anymore. So why was this necessary?

----------


## Assam

> Lol. I'll get my popcorn ready. I love Tim, but I'd have my money on Jason in that scenario.


The only Tim I could see feasibly beating Jason would be God Of Prep Tim from the Red Robin solo. 

Also, at this point, maybe we should have it so that Talia went to see the Flying Grayson's while pregnant with Damian, and that the fetus was influenced by Dick!

----------


## TheCape

> The only Tim I could see feasibly beating Jason would be God Of Prep Tim from the Red Robin solo.


Yup




> Also, at this point, maybe we should have it so that Talia went to see the Flying Grayson's while pregnant with Damian, and that the fetus was influenced by Dick!


I hate you for posting this before me :Mad:

----------


## Aioros22

> Because it was Tim's story. Lobdell took away every unique thing from Tim. Just think about it, if Tim will get a new origin and he will stealing the wheels off of the Batmobile, then it won't be just Jason's story anymore. So why was this necessary?


We already had that. It was called Batman and Robin Adventures.

----------


## Aioros22

> For example?


The Graysons being the inspiration behind the Todd`s acrobatic act. 

Dick already knowing Jason and his family when he`s introduced. 

Dick being the spectator of his act in that story. 

Jason finding out on his own who Batman was. 

Doning the Robin costume to save Bruce without him or Alfred`s say. 

Green pants. 

Being a geek, altho that`s more the Post Crisis Jason in school.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> We already had that. It was called Batman and Robin Adventures.


And as a Jason fan, you find it really annoying, don't you? Then maybe you see my point. 

Lobdell took away everything from Tim. He destroyed the character completely. He took away his origin, his personality and his whole life. And now, when nothing left for Tim, he gave Tim's story to Jason. Of course I'm upset. If Tim's origin would be untouched, then I wouldn't care. But he erased Tim's history and his origin, and now he gave this important piece to Jason. So again, why was this necessary?

----------


## KrustyKid

> *The only Tim I could see feasibly beating Jason would be God Of Prep Tim from the Red Robin solo*. 
> 
> Also, at this point, maybe we should have it so that Talia went to see the Flying Grayson's while pregnant with Damian, and that the fetus was influenced by Dick!


Jason would still win against that Tim, he was far from invincible. Let's not forget how Ra's totally dominated Tim, Catman also did a number on him as well. I feel Jason would have done better in both of those encounters(especially against Ra's). Cage match environment would heavily favor Jason.

----------


## Assam

> Jason would still win against that Tim, he was far from invincible. Let's not forget how Ra's totally dominated Tim, Catman also did a number on him as well. I feel Jason would have done better in both of those encounters(especially against Ra's). Cage match environment would heavily favor Jason.


Eh, fair enough. Never said that Tim would win absolutely, just that he'd be the only one with a chance. 

Also, about Catman, its not like Tim got low-balled there. Simone made Thomas dangerous as Hell (Along with making him my favorite DC villain) and there's very few BatFam members I'd bet on against him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Eh, fair enough. Never said that Tim would win absolutely, just that he'd be the only one with a chance. 
> 
> Also, about Catman, its not like Tim got low-balled there. Simone made Thomas dangerous as Hell (Along with making him my favorite DC villain) and there's very few BatFam members I'd bet on against him.


Probably only Cass or Bruce. Dick would lose a slight majority, and Jason would at least put up a fight. Other than that Catman would probably steamroll the rest of the Bat Family in a one on one situation.

----------


## Aioros22

> And as a Jason fan, you find it really annoying, don't you? Then maybe you see my point. 
> 
> Lobdell took away everything from Tim. He destroyed the character completely. He took away his origin, his personality and his whole life. And now, when nothing left for Tim, he gave Tim's story to Jason. Of course I'm upset. If Tim's origin would be untouched, then I wouldn't care. But he erased Tim's history and his origin, and now he gave this important piece to Jason. So again, why was this necessary?


We had to endure decades of victim shaming, writers painting him as a tick bomb, an innefective boob, unworthy of the mantle, always dying no matter the Alternative Earth and being scoff at by the other characters and the inteirity of his origin and history being called "Tim Drake" in the most iconic DC animated show of its generation. So, I do understand despite the fact that Jason didn`t figure out anything regarding "Robin" or "Batman" by watching Dick in the circus. In one case, all they did was change a name, in onther, while understandly wrong for Tim fans, gave him something different than it did Tim.  

Whereas that something different was necessary or will play out further for development regarding his father, which is key of the scene (his reality with his father and Dick`s reality with his), remains to be seen. If nothing comes out of it I`ll gladly conceed the fact and bury it out of sight but until then...we`re even.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> We had to endure decades of victim shaming, writers painting him as a tick bomb, an innefective boob, unworthy of the mantle, always dying no matter the Alternative Earth and being scoff at by the other characters and the inteirity of his origin and history being called "Tim Drake" in the most iconic DC animated show of its generation. So, I do understand despite the fact that Jason didn`t figure out anything regarding "Robin" or "Batman" by watching Dick in the circus. In one case, all they did was change a name, in onther, while understandly wrong for Tim fans, gave him something different than it did Tim.  
> 
> Whereas that something different was necessary or will play out further for development regarding his father, which is key of the scene (his reality with his father and Dick`s reality with his), remains to be seen. If nothing comes out of it I`ll gladly conceed the fact and bury it out of sight but until then...we`re even.


And again for the third time, do you think it’s okay to destroy a fleshed out character with 22 years of history, and then gave his personal story to another character? IT’S NOT OKAY! I don’t blame Jason, I love Jason. I blame Lobdell. He slaughtered my favourite character, and then he does this. He turned Tim into an arrogant, unbearable asshole, who endangered his own parents. That was his new origin for 6 years. Sitting in the auditorium and admire Dick should be in Tim’s origin, because it’s belongs to him. What does Post-Crisis Jason gain with this? Nothing! But Tim lost everything. He was a beloved character with a rich history, but now he is just a pathetic moron with zero likeability. Rebirth Tim is still dumb, he is not my Tim. He is just an impostor.

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #965 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:

detective-comics-965-Rafael-Albuquerque.jpg

----------


## sakuyamons

> Detective Comics #965 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> detective-comics-965-Rafael-Albuquerque.jpg


Looks cool.

Though Tim will return "alone" and honestly it has lowered down the hype for me.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim's story would be being there to watch the fall. Neither are mutually exclusive and its entirely reasonable both Tim and Jason have visited the circus just at different points in time. If anything I think the intention of the scene was actually to hint for something involving Jasons dad because the lifting two tickets thing for his son is probably the most interesting amount of characterization I've seen for Willis out of any Jason origins story.


Maybe Willis stole the tickets from Tims parents, that would explain why Jack forgot his Wallet and Bruce paid for them (Legends of the Dark Knight #100).

----------


## Assam

> Looks cool.
> 
> Though Tim will return "alone" and honestly it has lowered down the hype for me.


Yeah, the lack of Bart and Kon (and Cassie) coming back with him really does kill any hype I might have had for this story.

----------


## CPSparkles

Not read the annual but what a dick move. What makes it suck the most is that this is the same man who scrapped that important defining piece of backstory from Tim in the 1st place. This guy knew that this was a pretty cool connection and 1st chance he gets he gives it to his character.

I know it was necessary to amend Tim's origins in light of the reduced new 52 timeline but it's so tasteless passing it on to Jason.

I do like the idea suggested on the other thread that both boys saw the Graysons.

----------


## Aahz

> I know it was necessary to amend Tim's origins in light of the reduced new 52 timeline but it's so tasteless passing it on to Jason.


It is still quite different from Tims origin imo, the thing that had that left the great impression on Tim, was witnessing the death of Dicks parents and seeing Batman appear afterwards. And the reason he recognized Dicks moves later was that he had Nightmares about this evening for years.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, the lack of Bart and Kon (and Cassie) coming back with him really does kill any hype I might have had for this story.


This. If its  just leading to bad Tim batman shenanigans like it seems to then I don't care. It doesn't seem to be fixing his importantl relationships outside of Steph.

----------


## godisawesome

Not going to lie, I had a minor heart attack when I only glimpsed "Lobdell," "today," and general negative feelings in a post in the Tim thread. For a second I feared they'd pulled an Adam Beechen and announced he was returning to right something with Tim in it. Phew!

I don't quite begrudge Jason having some segments of his backstory resembling Tim's, because of the aforementioned history from Pre-Crisis Jason. I do think it's irritating to hew so closely to the visual image of Tim and his family enjoying a show from the stands and would prefer more spice in how Lobdell would reintegrate that element, and still see it as indicative of Lobdell having a desire to write a bit more of a Generic-Robin Jason than I'd personally be interested in, what with his more mellow portrayal and more 90's action hero style characterization, but there is precedent for it.

----------


## Caivu

Re: the #965 cover, someone noticed this:

IMG_20170830_214854.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Re: the #965 cover, someone noticed this:
> 
> IMG_20170830_214854.jpg


There's a theory that the three Oz's are 

*spoilers:*
Three different versions of Jor-El across DC continuity.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Caivu

> There's a theory that the three Oz's are 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Three different versions of Jor-El across DC continuity.
> *end of spoilers*


I'd heard that, but not that there were three of him now.

----------


## KrustyKid

Anyone else think we'll get an origin update for Tim in the upcoming arc? I certainly do.

----------


## RedBird

> Maybe Willis stole the tickets from Tims parents, that would explain why Jack forgot his Wallet and Bruce paid for them (Legends of the Dark Knight #100).


I dont think so, mainly because there is no indication that that was the SAME night that Dicks parents died, which is the night that Tim had visited post crisis. 
When you really think about it, is ironically enough, a copy of how Bruce met Dick. The annual doesn't mention that, its kinda implying that it was just some other night at the circus, so I'm doubtful of that theory, although that is a cool detail you remembered, I love LotDK #100.

----------


## RedBird

> Anyone else think we'll get an origin update for Tim in the upcoming arc? I certainly do.


If we didn't this whole 'kinda dead' trip would be pointless, especially if its true that he would be returning alone.
Tynion likes the whole modern take on Tim being a hacker, okay whatever, but apparently the whole government protection part of his story is gone now. (can someone double confirm that?) but If that is indeed the truth and his history is being updated, what do you guys suppose will be included in the updates? Realistically.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Anyone else think we'll get an origin update for Tim in the upcoming arc? I certainly do.


I think he will not because his writer as a fan who is tuned in to social will have heard the frustration of fellow fans and will deliver [though I get the feeling the new origin doesn't bug him that much] 
Tim needs a do over. Tim evolved as a character. It's unfair to take a character's growth and the experiences that lead to said growth away from them.

----------


## RedBird

> I think he will not because his writer as a fan who is tuned in to social will have heard the frustration of fellow fans and will deliver [though I get the feeling the new origin doesn't bug him that much] 
> Tim needs a do over. Tim evolved as a character. It's unfair to take a character's growth and the experiences that lead to said growth away from them.


Thats the thing sadly IF he was more in tuned with his fans you'd think he would have realised by now that most *dont* like the new origin anyway, and yet he seems to like it, at least as a base for Tims character, hopefully by next month things will pan out and he will wise up a little, since as of yet, Tynions Tim has been just as dull as new52 Tim.

----------


## Red obin

I'm continuing my reread of Grayson (just ordered last trade) and respect Tom King so much for putting an Alvin Draper reference in.

----------


## CPSparkles

> It is still quite different from Tims origin imo, the thing that had that left the great impression on Tim, was witnessing the death of Dicks parents and seeing Batman appear afterwards. And the reason he recognized Dicks moves later was that he had Nightmares about this evening for years.


You are right it is different but may be this post by MotherofRebels will put it in context for you

_Anonymous asked:
What was wrong with the annual people ( some Jason fans) are saying it was pretty good?

This is a fairly complicated issue of context and characterization, so I’m going to do my best to answer as fully as possible. 
As a single event, the annual is no better or worse than I would have expected, but put into the proper context, it becomes pretty infuriating. To understand that context, we’re going to have to go back to 2011, the beginning of the n52.
A brief recap: We are currently living in a comic renaissance, but back in 2011, comic sales in general were low. DC responded to the loss of profit by rebooting its entire universe, hoping that the reboot would simplify the timeline and make it more accessible for new readers. The resulting universe, the New 52, crashed and burned by 2015 for a variety of reasons, some of which we’re about to address. 
At the very beginning of the n52, all the titles got an issue #0 which either restated or rewrote the origin stories of the characters. The relevant titles for this discussion are Red Hood and the Outlaws and Teen Titans, which deal with Jason and Tim respectively. Both #0 issues were written by the author of the annual that came out today, Scott Lobdell. That’s the important bit.

Lobdell rewrote both backstories, meaning that Jason and Tim have different origins in the n52 than they did before 2011. 
A quick summary of Jason’s (post-flashpoint) origin story (1985-2011): Both Jason’s father and adoptive mother died, leaving him to fend for himself on the streets. As part of the “fending for himself” thing, Jason tried to steal the wheels off of the batmobile, but Bruce caught him, temporarily sent him to boarding school, fostered him, and then adopted him as his son. While he was living with Bruce, Jason became the second Robin.
In 1986, during an arc called A Death in the Family, Jason discovered that his birth mother was still alive. His attempt to find her led to a series of events that ended with Jason’s death at the hands of the Joker. 

A brief summary of Lobdell’s re-write: Jason’s father and mother (the birth and adoptive mothers conflated) died. He met Bruce while he was trying to steal prescription drugs from Leslie’s clinic. Bruce fostered him until Jason discovered that his mother, who he thought had died of a drug overdose, was still alive. His attempt to find her led to a series of events that ended with Jason’s death at the hands of the Joker.
The second half of the issue is told from the Joker’s point of view. Joker claims that he engineered Jason’s entire career as Robin by putting him into Batman’s path, arranging the fake-death and return of Jason’s mother, and finally killing him.
None of that is strictly necessary to the context of the annual, except where it proves that Lobdell doesn’t hesitate to dramatically alter characterization. The Joker-engineered origin has been retconned by Lobdell himself since that time, as part of the Rebirth soft-reboot, so it doesn’t really factor in anymore.
The truly relevant issue is Teen Titans #0 (2011), which completely rewrites Tim’s origin story.

A brief summary of Tim’s pre-n52 origin (1989-2011): When he was a small child, Tim visited Haly’s circus with his family. He met Dick and Dick’s parents and then witnessed the parents’ deaths. Years later, Tim saw Robin (Dick) perform the same signature move that he had performed that night at Haly’s, and from that fact, Tim was able to extrapolate both Batman and Robin’s secret identities. 
Tim didn’t come forward with his knowledge until after Jason’s death. He noticed that Batman was acting erratically and correctly guessed the cause of Bruce’s behavior (grief over Jason’s death). Tim became so worried about Bruce that he approached Dick and asked him to go back to Bruce and become Robin again. Dick declined to do so, because that chapter of his life was over. Since Tim was convinced that Bruce would not recover without Robin by his side, Tim volunteered to take the position himself. His birth parents were still alive at the time, but both died during his Robin tenure. After their deaths, Bruce adopted Tim as his son.

Some things to keep in mind about this origin story

The entire thing is based in Tim and Dick’s relationship. Dick was Tim’s #1 hero and inspiration from the time they met at the circus until the day the n52 took effect. Tim and Dick’s relationship was well-developed and longstanding, and it played a very important role in Tim’s introduction to vigilantism and general character development.
The thing that makes Tim special among comic book characters is that he figured out Batman and Robin’s secret identities by himself. Like Bruce, Tim has always been written as The Detective, the one that figures things out.
A brief summary of Tim’s n52 origin (2011), written by Scott Lobdell: After Jason’s death, Tim, a child who had previously been uninterested in Batman, noticed a change in behavior. Curiosity aroused, Tim tried to uncover Batman’s secret identity, but was unable to do so; Bruce was aware of Tim and his attempts, so he foiled them accordingly. Eventually, Tim gave up and decided to pursue hacktivism instead. He stole money from the Penguin and donated it. Penguin found out and ordered a hit on Tim’s house. Tim and his parents almost died, but Bruce showed up and saved the day.
After their near-deaths, Tim’s parents chose to go into witness protection, while encouraging Tim to stay behind and fulfill a greater purpose with Bruce. After Bruce began to foster Tim, he revealed that he was Batman, and Tim became Red Robin (not Robin, because he didn’t want to disrespect Jason’s memory).

Some things to notice
Lobdell’s origin for Tim completely bypasses Dick, who doesn’t factor into the story at all. As a result, Tim and Dick have no apparent relationship in the n52. That fact is reflected in their characterizations post-reboot. They barely know each other at all.
In this version, Tim did not do the thing that previously defined him: discovering Batman’s secret identity. By eliminating the Dick-Tim relationship, Lobdell removed the circumstances that led to the reveal (Haly’s circus, signature move, discovery that Dick was Robin, deduction that if Dick was Robin, Bruce must be Batman).
Teen Titans #0 has not, unlike RHATO #0, been retconned, so Tim in both the n52 and Rebirth still has the origin story that Lobdell wrote. It would be hard to overstate the difference between preboot Tim’s characterization and n52/rebirth Tim’s characterization, and that comes down to TT #0. In rewriting Tim’s origin (and then writing Tim’s series until he was removed from the title) Lobdell removed everything that made Tim unique or likable among the batfamily. Every relationship that had been deep and well-established disappeared, and since Lobdell had control of both TT and RHATO at the time, he was able to dramatically change Tim and Jason’s interactions and relationship. That’s a separate subject that I won’t address just now.

So. Back to the annual:

In 2011, Lobdell deleted the iconic scene where Tim sees Dick perform at Haly’s Circus– the scene that directly led to Tim’s discovery of Batman’s secret identity and his subsequent incorporation into the batfamily– from Tim’s origin, thereby flattening a previously dynamic character to the width of a sheet of paper. Today, he stuck that same scene– again, the one that belongs to Tim– into Jason’s origin, specifically as a means to develop Dick and Jason’s relationship. 
Remember that Lobdell, the same author, previously cut out Dick and Tim’s relationship entirely.
In that context, the annual is incredibly frustrating. Inside the DC universe it’s totally possible that both Tim and Jason saw Dick perform when they were all children. It’s not that it couldn’t logically happen, because it could. The issue is that a single author deleted the scene from one character, greatly to the detriment of that character’s history and characterization, and casually tacked it on to another character’s story._ 

I apologise for the length but most seem to be missing the main issue when they bring up stuff like the animated series.
Lobdell didn't have to do this. Jason doesn't need this Tim needs this. At this point DC is just kicking a puppy imo.

I just hope this pays off and this bond is reflected in other titles not just RHATO.

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## failo.legendkiller

Nothing to add more, maybe that Tim Drake died in 2011.

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## Red obin

Damn Lobdell, you better not reference this again because that move is not going to please a single person except you force feeding your pet character. 

Tim's origin needs to be properly retconned soon and not just swept under the rug. The problem is that his parents were brought up in BaRE not just Lobdell which makes it more problematic.

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## SixSpeedSamurai

How irritating.   I was reading a older issue of Batman Rebirth where there was a scene with Dick, Jason, Damian and Bruce at a fast food place.  I have not read comics since before Flashpoint and I wondered how in the hell is this possible?   Does Jason no longer kill?   If not, how is he accepted into the family as a killer?   Has be become just another popular villain/anti-hero that they watered down because of it?

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## CPSparkles

I'm not a fan of the whole Tim Wayne debacle but I only want his parents alive if they're gonna be used in a way that adds something to Tim's on going story or life aside from Robin who isn't as orphan. If they're not going to serve any narrative purpose then what's the point. I also don't feel Bruce has to adopt every orphaned member of the bat family. I understand a lot of fans like that for their favourite but I don't get it. Bruce adopting Tim made sense till they had Tim change his name unlike the other adopted kids. I liked how everything played out and eventually Tim was adopted. it was organic.

You don't need blood ties or papers to be a family.

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## CPSparkles

> How irritating.   I was reading a older issue of Batman Rebirth where there was a scene with Dick, Jason, Damian and Bruce at a fast food place.  I have not read comics since before Flashpoint and I wondered how in the hell is this possible?   Does Jason no longer kill?   If not, how is he accepted into the family as a killer?   Has be become just another popular villain/anti-hero that they watered down because of it?


I don't think he kills anymore. At least he hasn't been shown to in a while which is ironic since a lot of his casual fans online seem to think he does and like him because of that.
Honestly I preferred him when he did. That is the only way Jason works for me rubber bullets and leg shots don't work for me.

He should be an anti hero imo much more interesting than a bat branded good guy.

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## Assam

> How irritating.   I was reading a older issue of Batman Rebirth where there was a scene with Dick, Jason, Damian and Bruce at a fast food place.  I have not read comics since before Flashpoint and I wondered how in the hell is this possible?   Does Jason no longer kill?   If not, how is he accepted into the family as a killer?   Has be become just another popular villain/anti-hero that they watered down because of it?


Basically, he can't kill AT ALL in Gotham as part of a deal with Bruce, and he'll only kill when completely necessary elsewhere. 

Some may take issue with this, but this is the first time I've liked Jason since his initial return story. And even then, this is the first time I've REALLY liked him since the comic version of Under the Red Hood isn't anything great, and him stabbing one of my favorite BatFam members before she left the books forever didn't help him grow on me.

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## Aahz

The between Jason and Dick is still portrait very different (especially once Jason became Robin) to Dicks and Tims relation. But I would have actually preferred if they would act more antagonistic and had a dynamic more like Dick has with Tiger.

And like I said the circus seences of Jason and Tim had quite different effects on them. For Jason it was a nice evening with his father without any relation without any relation to Batman, for Tim something that gave him nightmares for years and caused his obsession with Batman.

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## Assam

> I don't think he kills anymore. At least he hasn't been shown to in a while which is ironic since a lot of his casual fans online seem to think he does and like him because of that


I'm pretty sure the average 'Causal Jason Fan' would have a heart attack if you told them he A) Doesn't kill anymore, B) Is actually one of the more  sophisticated members of the BatFam and C) He really isn't anymore "edgy" or "Dark" than a lot of the other BatFam members apart from how he's marketed. 

Also telling them about tentacle monster Jason. THAT would weird them out.

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## Aioros22

> How irritating.   I was reading a older issue of Batman Rebirth where there was a scene with Dick, Jason, Damian and Bruce at a fast food place.  I have not read comics since before Flashpoint and I wondered how in the hell is this possible?   Does Jason no longer kill?   If not, how is he accepted into the family as a killer?   Has be become just another popular villain/anti-hero that they watered down because of it?


You can read RATHO where it`s throughly explored the why and how. 

It`s nothing new, anyhow. Jason is the anti hero because he`s the wild-card that will do what the others won`t if necessity comes to the door and Jason is the one person Batman will give that sort of trust with.

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## CPSparkles

> Basically, he can't kill AT ALL in Gotham as part of a deal with Bruce, and he'll only kill when completely necessary elsewhere. 
> 
> Some may take issue with this, but this is the first time I've liked Jason since his initial return story. And even then, this is the first time I've REALLY liked him since the comic version of Under the Red Hood isn't anything great, and him stabbing one of my favorite BatFam members before she left the books forever didn't help him grow on me.


I guess Batman is okay with killing you just need to read the fine print. At this point what exactly are Batman's core principles? What is his moral code? Everything gets murkier.

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## Badou

Tim having parents only works if they go full Spider-man. In that they need to put Tim in high school where he is still in a position where he is living with his parents and being supported by them in some capacity. Like how Peter had his aunt and was trying to balance a hero life, school life, home life and a personal life. If he isn't in school then he doesn't really need to be supported by his parents anymore and is basically independent, like we have seen in the New 52, and his parents don't really have a role to play in Tim's story. It is one of the reason why I wasn't a fan of making Tim a mega super genius where he doesn't need school anymore. It isn't so much he needs the education but the school environment that helps sets Tim apart from the other Robins and Gotham heroes because Dick, Jason, and Damian aren't in a position to have those kind of stories.

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## WhipWhirlwind

> I guess Batman is okay with killing you just need to read the fine print. At this point what exactly are Batman's core principles? What is his moral code? Everything gets murkier.


At a certain point it gets ridiculous though. A fair amount of the league has killed before and keeps that in the back pocket of their arsenal. I think Batman drawing a hard line in gotham but begrudgingly accepting Jason's methods elsewhere is an acceptable way for the character to be part of the "family".




> Tim having parents only works if they go full Spider-man. In that they need to put Tim in high school where he is still in a position where he is living with his parents and being supported by them in some capacity. Like how Peter had his aunt and was trying to balance a hero life, school life, home life and a personal life. If he isn't in school then he doesn't really need to be supported by his parents anymore and is basically independent, like we have seen in the New 52, and his parents don't really have a role to play in Tim's story. It is one of the reason why I wasn't a fan of making Tim a mega super genius where he doesn't need school anymore. It isn't so much he needs the education but the school environment that helps sets Tim apart from the other Robins and Gotham heroes because Dick, Jason, and Damian aren't in a position to have those kind of stories.


Alternatively, Tim goes to Ivy university and his parents "surprise" him by moving close by. 

But yes, Tim desperately needs to go back to more hero/school/home/personal balance type stuff, it was his bread and butter as a character for many many years.

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## CPSparkles

> You can read RATHO where it`s throughly explored the why and how. 
> 
> It`s nothing new, anyhow. Jason is the anti hero because he`s the wild-card that will do what the others won`t if necessity comes to the door and Jason is the one person Batman will give that sort of trust with.


But why? Jason fans complain about his characterisation in bat crossover events and this is the root of it. He has to become a different character outside of his title in order to fit because the idea sold in his solo is contrary to Batman. 

So far he's been unable to perform his function 'wildcard that will do what others won't' so he ends nerfed and OC.

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## SixSpeedSamurai

> You can read RATHO where it`s throughly explored the why and how. 
> 
> It`s nothing new, anyhow. Jason is the anti hero because he`s the wild-card that will do what the others won`t if necessity comes to the door and Jason is the one person Batman will give that sort of trust with.


No desire to, never really cared for Jason and imho, him being alive ruins one of the pivotal Batman stories of all time.

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## CPSparkles

> I'm pretty sure the average 'Causal Jason Fan' would have a heart attack if you told them he A) Doesn't kill anymore, B) Is actually one of the more  sophisticated members of the BatFam and C) He really isn't anymore "edgy" or "Dark" than a lot of the other BatFam members apart from how he's marketed. 
> 
> Also telling them about tentacle monster Jason. THAT would weird them out.


So true and I actually find it quite amusing.
Marketing and aesthetics have a great deal of influence however I wonder why DC doesn't do more to match the real [comic] guy to the image? I believe his books will sell more if the comics reflected more what the casual fan believes/wants him to be.

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## Aioros22

> And again for the third time, do you think its okay to destroy a fleshed out character with 22 years of history, and then gave his personal story to another character? ITS NOT OKAY! I dont blame Jason, I love Jason. I blame Lobdell. He slaughtered my favourite character, and then he does this. He turned Tim into an arrogant, unbearable asshole, who endangered his own parents. That was his new origin for 6 years. Sitting in the auditorium and admire Dick should be in Tims origin, because its belongs to him. What does Post-Crisis Jason gain with this? Nothing! But Tim lost everything. He was a beloved character with a rich history, but now he is just a pathetic moron with zero likeability. Rebirth Tim is still dumb, he is not my Tim. He is just an impostor


Is it ever right to destroy a character? No. Been there done that, twice. 

I get that you`re terribly upset but the main point is exactly what you refer to it later. Will he gain anything from it? Maybe he will. Since the start of Rebirth the Outlaws have been chased by a misterious figure who is been hinted to be Wills Todd, who shows up in the discussed scene in a rare appearance. Wills Todd that under Collins back in the 80`s was equally hinted to return until Starlin got a grab on the book. 

I get that it upsets that Tim seemingl won`t have the connection with Dick as he used to have but this scene doesn`t erase it if the writers are _willingly_. This is not the night the Graysons die, after all. 

Let me expose, as a fellow fan of another character, why whereas on the lookout to see if this goes somewhere (if not, I`d rather he obviously not use it ever again) I`m willing to see how it plays, as vindicative as it sounds:

- Dick and Tim`s brotherly relationship that started at a circus = lifted from Pre Crisis Jason history. This is mainly why I think he did it. I know some fans either way won`t like it, I know Dark doesn`t, but what Tim and Dick were to each other was nothing new by the time he shows up. It was a rehash of a previous relationship with another name. With this, Loedbell is bringing back a sense of Pre Crisis history to Jason. We already know he`s a got a Morrison-ey approach to continuity as far as this book is concerned. If there`s somethig he likes, he`ll seemingly use it. 

- Wills Todd return. Something Collins was hinting before Starlin took helm of the book. With this, Tim kind of loses the whole "He`s the only one with a parente alive" as well. In this case, Jason has been both an orphan, an adopted son and a biological son of a father he knows nothing about. 

- If Loedbell has been allowed to do this is because editors at large aren`t concerned to bring back every element to Tim, maybe? We`ll find soon enough. 

- Understandably this isn`t about the characters but the _writer_s and _agendas_. Quite possible Loedbell is only concerned in fully work on Jason and less about the others and is no different than Starlin who only cared about Batman and nothing else or bat writers during Tim`s original run (and at least around 2000 and so) who dissed Jason back and forth to box him forever in one label. Maybe. But so far his work is good on the title and I`m willing to wait and see where this leads and consequently how A Lonely Place Of Living shows out as well.

But honestly? You don`t want to hear it but Tim loses some points if a writer is allowed to use Jason`s vast history. The moral question will always remain whether you should use it or not if they want to keep Tim around.

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## Aioros22

> So true and I actually find it quite amusing.
> Marketing and aesthetics have a great deal of influence however I wonder why DC doesn't do more to match the real [comic] guy to the image? I believe his books will sell more if the comics reflected more what the casual fan believes/wants him to be.


Casual fans aren`t stoopid. The way casual fans respond to Arkham Knight is akin to how Under The Red Hood was received precisely because it`s a variation of a classic story. When Batman`s origin is retold 100 times, casuals know what the timeframe is, conciously or not. 

And they aren`t wrong in the end, anyhow. He will go for the kill regardless of a current status quo. Development doesn`t erase that, only the "how". Just this Annual you had Jason using Artemis sword to ricochet bullets to the Beast`s _head_.

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## Assam

> So true and I actually find it quite amusing.
> Marketing and aesthetics have a great deal of influence however I wonder why DC doesn't do more to match the real [comic] guy to the image? I believe his books will sell more if the comics reflected more what the casual fan believes/wants him to be.


Well, I don't think it would make sense from a business sense since, as we all at least SHOULD know, 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to comic sales. And from a creative POV, it'd be a major turn-off, at least for me. Jay may not be in my top 10 BatFam, but I still dig his comic characterization (When done right). I have no interest in generic edge lord Jason.

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## CPSparkles

> At a certain point it gets ridiculous though. A fair amount of the league has killed before and keeps that in the back pocket of their arsenal. I think Batman drawing a hard line in gotham but begrudgingly accepting Jason's methods elsewhere is an acceptable way for the character to be part of the "family".


I would agree if not for the not killing moral code thing being such a key part of Batman and what he stands for [today]. I also doubt Bruce would ever give the kill go ahead to any of the family. This why I'm not a fan of Bruce re Talia in Batman Inc, why I'm not 100% a fan of Bruce and Talia in R:SOB [as cute as it was seeing them come to the aid of their child and fight as a family]  Bruce and Talia's interaction in Dark days. 

Bruce should never lay eyes on her without trying to arrest her and should they ever be forced to work together as they did in R:SOB then he should arrest her as soon as the threat is contained.
The fact that Jason wears a bat symbol on his chest makes this RHATO only Bruce/Jason deal even more out of character and unbelievable.

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## Assam

> I would agree if not for the not killing moral code thing being such a key part of Batman and what he stands for [today]. I also doubt Bruce would ever give the kill go ahead to any of the family. This why I'm not a fan of Bruce re Talia in Batman Inc, why I'm not 100% a fan of Bruce and Talia in R:SOB [as cute as it was seeing them come to the aid of their child and fight as a family]  Bruce and Talia's interaction in Dark days. 
> Bruce should never lay eyes on her without trying to arrest her and should they ever be forced to work together as they did in R:SOB then he should arrest her as soon as the threat is contained.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. The fact that Bruce hasn't had Talia locked up and the key thrown away, and allows her to be anywhere NEAR Damian is disgusting to me.

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## Aioros22

Do you find Batman in the movies as unbelievable out of character as well? 

To me it makes sense it makes perfect sense to me that Batman is _self aware_ that he is indeed outside the law when it suits him. He started as a factual outlaw but became a public figure, so just as he says to Jason, "The world may need a few Outlaws". Some fans won`t accept a Batman who is this self aware but then you come back to the juridical debates of whether his way isn`t guilty of innocents dying as well. 

Put it this way, even the 66` Batman would work with the Green Hornet who had the reputation of a criminal mastermind. He didn`t like his ways just as Batman today wouldn`t enjoy Jason`s but those ways have a way to be effective. Most importantly, if he suspects one is just using reputation for whatever reasons, in the other he _know_s they are.

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## Assam

I do like the idea that Batman will go against the rules he firmly sets on others, both because it adds a level of hypocrisy to the character, making him more interesting, and also (And you should have known I was gonna bring this up  :Stick Out Tongue: ) because it re-enforces the fact that no one, not even Bruce, is as dedicated to what  the Bat means as Cass.

EDIT: Although, bringing her up, its telling how inconsistent things are between when Cass showed up and when Damian showed up and now. Bruce spent a good long while in Cass's book REFUSING to believe that she'd ever killed someone, looking for evidence to the contrary and horrified by the fact that she even MIGHT have killed someone when she was little. Then you get to Damian where he's like "Okay, you killed people, but stop it, kay thanks, Dick take care of this kid, will ya?" Or now with Jason, "Kill if you've got to, I don't really care, I need to go have Lucius design some yellow costumes." Hell, go all the way back to Knightfall, and the entire reason they were Hell bent on taking JPV down was because he'd killed ONE criminal.

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## KrustyKid

> If we didn't this whole 'kinda dead' trip would be pointless, especially if its true that he would be returning alone.
> Tynion likes the whole modern take on Tim being a hacker, okay whatever, but apparently the whole government protection part of his story is gone now. (can someone double confirm that?) but If that is indeed the truth and his history is being updated, what do you guys suppose will be included in the updates? Realistically.


I could see it resembling something closer to his original origin, except with the hacker bits included. I doubt the Flying Graysons bit will be included(Jason's got that angle covered), so 'if' he does end up figuring out who Batman is it will probably be in a different way. I'm just hoping the endangering his parents whole debacle is completely removed.

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## kiwiliko

> I do like the idea that Batman will go against the rules he firmly sets on others, both because it adds a level of hypocrisy to the character, making him more interesting, and also (And you should have known I was gonna bring this up ) because it re-enforces the fact that no one, not even Bruce, is as dedicated to what  the Bat means as Cass.
> .


Yesss. Seems I'm not the only one who likes a bit of hypocrisy in Bruce too. 
This an an opinion better suited for Jason or Cass' thread but Cass just takes to the bat in such a way that I'd love to see the character dynamics for a well written Cass and a well written Jason. They're two foils of eachother in the way two people are having both gone through serious amounts of trauma and come out the other end with completely contrasting worldviews and ideology. Bruce's defense of the Joker comes off as defending the actions of a serial killer and feels more like a literal reading of the no killing moral but in a way that is difficult to explain, Cass feels much more closer to taking the spirit of the word in terms of that moral and it makes her more elegant in execution than Bruce. 

As for Bruce's inconsistent treatment...
I always interpreted Bruce's attitude to Cass as he just didn't really want to think of Cass' history of killing because the Cass now is such a difference from the Cass then. Bruce has most definitely worked with killers no problem before but his issues working with Jason to me just scream of "that dad that's completely fine seeing girls go to parties but will flip if his daughter wants to go." He deals because he can't control the morals of everyone in the world but he definitely on some level has control issues with people in his family that deviate or have deviated his morals before. (dami, jason, cass)
Poor Damian is just a mess of inconsistency. Batman has a good amount of issues driving in how much his "only" blood child matters to him and a death arc to drive the point harder but its all told and not shown. We still dont get much development to how he feels about Damian heck I don't think I've seen him interact much with Dami at all recently. Honestly a pity because all three characters are great for presenting alternative povs or alternative methods of executing that could add so much more to the verse.

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## RedBird

> I could see it resembling something closer to his original origin, except with the hacker bits included. I doubt the Flying Graysons bit will be included(Jason's got that angle covered), so 'if' he does end up figuring out who Batman is it will probably be in a different way. I'm just hoping the endangering his parents whole debacle is completely removed.


My guess is that it is removed, it was definitely the worst part of his reboot for me, its not just different or slightly ooc, it bordered on Tim being a sociopath to go as far as endanger his family. Speaking of which I REALLY hope the Drakes get more of a role in his life or at least that we understand his relationship with them more.


I wonder if the flying grayson thing really is off the table? I mean if it is I'm doubtful its because of rhato using it, since when has the bat office cared about the developments in that book? If its not used then we know for certain it was never on the table to begin with for Tim Drakes return story, I'm sure the script and 'updated origin' is done with only a month away. Which would mean Tynion had no use for that element in HIS version and left it out altogether. However if in fact it IS in the story and still a part of Tims origin, well, all that proves is that we fans care more about these details being shared between Robins than is necessary. Regardless I do hope his relationship with the family, especially Dick is touched upon and restructured no matter how Tynion decides to proceed with their first meetings.

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## Aioros22

> I do like the idea that Batman will go against the rules he firmly sets on others, both because it adds a level of hypocrisy to the character, making him more interesting, and also (And you should have known I was gonna bring this up ) because it re-enforces the fact that no one, not even Bruce, is as dedicated to what the Bat means as Cass.
> 
>  EDIT: Although, bringing her up, its telling how inconsistent things are between when Cass showed up and when Damian showed up and now. Bruce spent a good long while in Cass's book REFUSING to believe that she'd ever killed someone, looking for evidence to the contrary and horrified by the fact that she even MIGHT have killed someone when she was little. Then you get to Damian where he's like "Okay, you killed people, but stop it, kay thanks, Dick take care of this kid, will ya?" Or now with Jason, "Kill if you've got to, I don't really care, I need to go have Lucius design some yellow costumes." Hell, go all the way back to Knightfall, and the entire reason they were Hell bent on taking JPV down was because he'd killed ONE criminal


Death by negligence even. 

I concur in the face of Batman being a tad (being nice here) hyprocritical because that`s flat out _huma_n. I like it. He wouldn`t if Jason was in the same emotional state he was in his return but as he grew to be, he`s more akin a pragmatic free agent. He will if he needs or requires to and Bruce vouches for it because he knows where that pragmatism is targetted at. It is an exception he makes, no doubt about it but there`s a reason he wouldn`t vouch Tim or Dick the same way. They didn`t dealt what Jason did, they don`t know what darkness really is or how to handle it. If after everything Jason went throught he still fights for the greater good then that strenght can be an ally. 

Funnily enough, Jason has yet to be written as going as far as Tim, Dick and Damian in alternative timelines. 

The dark side he controls well, enough it seems  :Wink:

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## G-Potion

> Funnily enough, Jason has yet to be written as going as far as Tim, Dick and Damian in alternative timelines. 
> 
> The dark side he controls well, enough it seems


Ai, don't jinx it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> My guess is that it is removed, it was definitely the worst part of his reboot for me, its not just different or slightly ooc, it bordered on Tim being a sociopath to go as far as endanger his family. Speaking of which I REALLY hope the Drakes get more of a role in his life or at least that we understand his relationship with them more.
> 
> 
> *I wonder if the flying grayson thing really is off the table?* I mean if it is I'm doubtful its because of rhato using it, since when has the bat office cared about the developments in that book? If its not used then we know for certain it was never on the table to begin with for Tim Drakes return story, I'm sure the script and 'updated origin' is done with only a month away. Which would mean Tynion had no use for that element in HIS version and left it out altogether. However if in fact it IS in the story and still a part of Tims origin, well, all that proves is that we fans care more about these details being shared between Robins than is necessary. Regardless I do hope his relationship with the family, especially Dick is touched upon and restructured no matter how Tynion decides to proceed with their first meetings.


Well, it might not be. But we already have Jason who admires Dick, Damian who admires Dick.. heck, if you include Steph in the second Eternal even she admires the Dick(and maybe a little more). That's already three former Robin's(and current) who look up to or admire Dick. Would adding Tim's admiration for Dick at this point really add anything unique to his story?

Not that I'm against it, just pointing out the similarities of tastes of the junior Robins :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

> Well, it might not be. But we already have Jason who admires Dick, Damian who admires Dick.. heck, if you include Steph in the second Eternal even she admires the Dick(and maybe a little more). That's already three former Robin's(and current) who look up to or admire Dick. Would adding Tim's admiration for Dick at this point really add anything unique to his story?
> 
> Not that I'm against it, just pointing out the similarities of tastes of the junior Robins


Hey, they have good tastes, and in all fairness half the DC universe admired Grayson at one point or another. :P

Admiring Dick Grayson is not unique and its not a unique aspect to Tim, its *how* it was used for his story thats important. (Same goes for Damian and the others) It was another *element* of Tims story that fueled his obsession for the Dynamic Duo and had given it reasoning at the time. An obsession that grew enough to which *he sought them out* eventually, (you know, the actual important part of his origin). The admiration alone wouldnt be unique no, but it depends on how Tynion will use it (if he does) I suppose.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I could see it resembling something closer to his original origin, except with the hacker bits included. I doubt the Flying Graysons bit will be included(Jason's got that angle covered), so 'if' he does end up figuring out who Batman is it will probably be in a different way. I'm just hoping the endangering his parents whole debacle is completely removed.


I still think the Flying Graysons bit will remain as a part if Tim origin and nothing in the RHATO annual negates that possibility IMO. They each took away something distinctly different from their respective visits to the circus and it effected their characters in different ways as well.  

-Jason went to the circus and saw Dick perform there, which led him to admiring the kid on the trapeze because he was "free" and "happy", which were two things he wasn't at the time. That's a nice addition and a nice call back to Jason's pre-Crisis days but nothing more than that. At the end of the day it doesn't really effect the overall origin of the character and it certainly wasn't any sort of impetus for the character to become Robin.

-Tim went and saw Dick lose his parents and later was able to figure out Batman's identity because of having seen Dick as Robin perform the quad that was the Grayson's signature move. That is far more important because it is what lead Tim down the road to becoming Robin eventually. 

If they remove that nonsense with him having endangered his parents, and I hope to god they do, then that also removes the way he figured out Batman's identity in the N52 from the equation so they'll need to replace it with something. I'd much rather they reinstate the prior origin then to have them attempt another "new and improved" origin since the last one was such a mess. That would be the smart way to go here instead of yet another clumsy attempt at an origin.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Hey, they have good tastes, and in all fairness half the DC universe admired Grayson at one point or another. :P
> 
> Admiring Dick Grayson is not unique and its not a unique aspect to Tim, its *how* it was used for his story thats important. (Same goes for Damian and the others) It was another *element* of Tims story that fueled his obsession for the Dynamic Duo and had given it reasoning at the time. An obsession that grew enough to which *he sought them out* eventually, (you know, the actual important part of his origin). The admiration alone wouldnt be unique no, but it depends on how Tynion will use it (if he does) I suppose.


Fair point. Though, the way how Tim used to admire Dick is how Jason currently does. I guess it could still work, but they would just need to change the details up a bit to differentiate how they feel about or why they admire Dick, if that makes any sense. Take Damian for example, he admires Dick for something far different than what Jason does.

----------


## twincast

> Alternatively, Tim goes to Ivy university and his parents "surprise" him by moving close by. 
> 
> But yes, Tim desperately needs to go back to more hero/school/home/personal balance type stuff, it was his bread and butter as a character for many many years.


Agreed. And after teasing the possibility of finally giving Tim a civilian life again at the beginning of Rebirth, now "Signal" is getting that sort of book to add insult to injury... (¬＿¬)

I still enjoy Detective Comics a lot overall, but Tynion's Clayface and Azrael annoy me almost as much as his pretentious incorrect use of IV in his name, and I originally started buying the series almost exclusively because of Tim, so A Lonely Place of Living will be the make-or-break arc regarding whether I'll continue buying it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hey, they have good tastes, and in all fairness half the DC universe admired Grayson at one point or another. :P
> 
> Admiring Dick Grayson is not unique and its not a unique aspect to Tim, its *how* it was used for his story thats important. (Same goes for Damian and the others) It was another *element* of Tims story that fueled his obsession for the Dynamic Duo and had given it reasoning at the time. An obsession that grew enough to which *he sought them out* eventually, (you know, the actual important part of his origin). The admiration alone wouldnt be unique no, but it depends on how Tynion will use it (if he does) I suppose.


I agree with this.

----------


## G-Potion

> Fair point. Though, the way how Tim used to admire Dick is how Jason currently does. I guess it could still work, but they would just need to change the details up a bit to differentiate how they feel about or why they admire Dick, if that makes any sense. Take Damian for example, he admires Dick for something far different than what Jason does.


It's already clear that they admire Dick because of different reasons no?

----------


## yohyoi

> It's already clear that they admire Dick because of different reasons no?


I admire Dick for a _different_ reason too. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

----------


## Red obin

On an optimistic notes any single issue Tim recommendations preferably from his solo but can be anything especially with spoiler. I have the violent tendencies trade, most of red robin, robin/impulse, robin 16,148 and my favourite 57. I like kerschls art but know wanted is a hated arc but other then batgirl(power of retcon) is it worth picking up another issue? Also have superman/batman 26. Might pick up #100 or #4, thought?

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's already clear that they admire Dick because of different reasons no?


Well currently I wouldn't say Tim admires Dick at all, only Jason.

On the flip side, Jason seems to view Dick as his hero, similar to how Tim used to Pre-52. So if they were going to bring that element back into Tim's origin it would be nice if they changed it up a bit so it isn't overlapping with how Jason feels about Dick. Both seeing Dick at the circus is fine, even if it was on the same night. It's how they feel about Dick, or how he inspires them which should be different.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I admire Dick for a _different_ reason too. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


You don't need to say anymore, lol

----------


## G-Potion

> Well currently I wouldn't say Tim admires Dick at all, only Jason.
> 
> On the flip side, Jason seems to view Dick as his hero, similar to how Tim used to Pre-52. So if they were going to bring that element back into Tim's origin it would be nice if they changed it up a bit so it isn't overlapping with how Jason feels about Dick. Both seeing Dick at the circus is fine, even if it was on the same night. It's how they feel about Dick, or how he inspires them which should be different.


He might be Jason's hero, but in a sense that he is _free_ and _happy_. Something that only a person with Jason's background might make a comparison too. I don't think Dick even inspired Jason to be anything at that time, just that he had what Jason didn't have.

----------


## RedBird

> Fair point. Though, the way how Tim used to admire Dick is how Jason currently does. I guess it could still work, but they would just need to change the details up a bit to differentiate how they feel about or why they admire Dick, if that makes any sense. Take Damian for example, he admires Dick for something far different than what Jason does.


Yes, and they are different.

Even though Tim saw him at the circus, ultimately he was there to see Dick parents death, he first was amazed by Dicks performance, as I'm sure everyone who saw the young acrobat was, but his strongest admiration for Dick was outside the ring instead of inside.

I always figured that Tim admired Dick for the hero he was. (as both Robin and Nightwing)
That Damian admired Dick for the hero he became for him (adapting and becoming Damians Batman)
And now Jason admires Dick for the hero that represented all he couldn't have but yearned for. (Happiness and Freedom)

----------


## Alycat

> Well currently I wouldn't say Tim admires Dick at all, only Jason.


This is my main problem with current Tim. Even in Tec he felt so disconnected to everyone but Steph. Since N52 started the only people anyone built a bond up with him are Jason, who has his own stuff and Steph who was also starting from scratch. Barely any time spent with Bruce and outside of a few moments he and Dick could've been strangers. I have no faith in Tynion to fix it either.

----------


## Assam

> I still enjoy Detective Comics a lot overall, but Tynion's Clayface annoy me almost as much as his pretentious incorrect use of IV in his name,


Not  a fan of Basil? Huh. He seems to be the one thing everyone likes about this book. 




> On an optimistic notes any single issue Tim recommendations preferably from his solo but can be anything especially with spoiler. I have the violent tendencies trade, most of red robin, robin/impulse, robin 16,148 and my favourite 57. I like kerschls art but know wanted is a hated arc but other then batgirl(power of retcon) is it worth picking up another issue? Also have superman/batman 26. Might pick up #100 or #4, thought?


3,4 and 5 are Steph's first appearances following her introduction in Detective Comics. Very solid. 

Apart from that, you can assume that any of the MANY Robin issues written by Dixon is solid. And for issues with Steph, you can just use ComicVine. (Though obviously check to find out if the issue you're interested in buying is part of a crossover) You may also want to do the same thing with Ives. Great civilian character. 

Some other recommendations are: 88, 119, and, if you're willing to get two more issues for the short crossover, 132 and 133. You get three guesses what those issues have in common and the first two don't count.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And since it's bloody obvious what I'm talking about, I'll also recommend Batgirl Vol 1 #18, 30-32 (Tim isn't in the first issue but he and Steph join in the for the last two), 45, 50 (Mostly about Cass and Bruce's conflict, but Tim gets some great moments, and unlike Dick (Who just gets slapped around by Cass and Bruce) is actually useful.), 58 and 59 (The other parts of the crossover with Robin 132 and 133) 

And no, nothing after OYL is really worth reading in the Robin solo.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well, I don't think it would make sense from a business sense since, as we all at least SHOULD know, 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to comic sales. And from a creative POV, it'd be a major turn-off, at least for me. Jay may not be in my top 10 BatFam, but I still dig his comic characterization (When done right). I have no interest in generic edge lord Jason.


He doesn't have to be an edgelord. Anti hero doesn't = edgelord. If it looks like an anti hero carrys the weapons and making of an anti hero then have him be one without question. A guy who is supposed to do what batman won't do should be doing that on panel. Right now Jason isn't doing anything that falls in the realm of that tagline. Bruce and what he did to Bane in order to save GG makes him greyer than Jason, Damian, in TLC [out of character] or kidnapping team mates makes him more grey. Bruce rolling with Harley and being so lenient with someone like Talia stuff like that makes Bruce more of an anti hero than current Jason. 

I'm enjoying his book but I've yet to get the feeling that this guy would do the things Batman wouldn't. I like the idea of a bat family member who plays differently but right now they are pretty much all the same aside from Steph. She is the one that ticks the anti hero doing it my way box.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Casual fans aren`t stoopid. The way casual fans respond to Arkham Knight is akin to how Under The Red Hood was received precisely because it`s a variation of a classic story. When Batman`s origin is retold 100 times, casuals know what the timeframe is, conciously or not. 
> 
> And they aren`t wrong in the end, anyhow. He will go for the kill regardless of a current status quo. Development doesn`t erase that, only the "how". Just this Annual you had Jason using Artemis sword to ricochet bullets to the Beast`s _head_.


The amount of online debates I've had with fans and gamers where I've had to make a case that Jason isn't a killer suggest otherwise and the comments on YouTube, game boards and tumbler prove that a large number don't know or don't like admitting that maybe he isn't this punisher type guy. I've had people quoting his confirmed kill no to me like that's an important achievement. I think  more fans than we would like to believe like the idea of him as a killer. Personally I don't much care but he is more interesting when he is clearly operating in a manner that even Bruce would frown upon which he hasn't done in a while.

----------


## CPSparkles

> The between Jason and Dick is still portrait very different (especially once Jason became Robin) to Dicks and Tims relation. But I would have actually preferred if they would act more antagonistic and had a dynamic more like Dick has with Tiger.
> 
> And like I said the circus seences of Jason and Tim had quite different effects on them. For Jason it was a nice evening with his father without any relation without any relation to Batman, for Tim something that gave him nightmares for years and caused his obsession with Batman.


I 100% agree on Dick/Jason being more like Dick/Tiger though Dick/Damian's on the surface banter and interactions already mirrors that to perfection down to the Grayson you idiot and Grayson you fool as terms of endearment but yeah would be down for something similar but with a different tone. 
Tiger and Damian express themselves in a manner that is very opposite to Jason.  Foreign, Superior and Formal Jason is less formal but just as serious. I also don't see Dick being as playful with Jason because again his personality is very different and personally I think Dick treats Tiger and Damian the way he does partly to annoy out of fondness and personal amusement.

I don't want Dick's attitude to Jason reflecting his handling of Tiger. At least not without a decent amount of actual stories or interactions that back it up the relationship.

That's another reason why I feel it was a poor choice to add this unnecessary bit of retcon to Jason. I seriously doubt the current bat, titans, Nightwing writers are going to return the compliment by giving us stories [in titles outside of RHATO] that show them as best bros or have Dick giving in book commentary about Jason to balance it out and make it not look like one sided fanboying on Jason's part.

Both are full fledged heroes but this new reveal elevates Dick. They are not equals not from Jason's pov or to the reader. Dick is inspirational, Jason admires/ed him was/is in awe of him, holds/held him in high regard. That is huge props and I just don't see Dick giving Jason the amount of on panel props and praise it will take make them seem like equals agains.

As a Dick fan I like that message because I don't think the others measure up to him and I don't mind confirmation and reminders that Dick is the gold standard that they all aspire to but I would hate any writing that had Damian so smitten to the point he was flustered about talking to Jason. I would hate any indication that Tim and Damian were anything other than at best Jason's equals because I rate them more than Jason. Surprised that some Jason fans actually don't seem to mind.

The panel and Jason's commentary says otherwise about the evening. Dick left an impression. Jason was impacted and admitted his admiration for Dick Grayson [age 12]. Sure not Robin or Nightwing but the take away is that even outside of costumes and Batman Dick had a strong effect on Jason. He thought Dick was a big deal which is great for Dick but so unnecessary.
.
Dick Grayson leaving an impression on young Tim Drake was a big part of Tim and necessary since it was the 1st step on his journey to his heroic destiny. It was also something that so many fans loved. These guys were meant to be family. It was a nice bit of writing to have the bat family start that night in the circus without any of them knowing it. Lobdell knows that which is why he tacked it on to his boy.

I don't see Tynion writing that Tim also went to see the Grayson's [like Bruce and Jason] the memes already flooding the net prove how silly the idea is. I 'm sure if you were being honest with yourself you will admit that this likely kills any chance of that bit of back story ever returning to its rightful owner.

It was a selfish and unnecessary thing to do. Lobdell wants to create a bond between Dick and Jason great. Come up with an original idea, 'borrow' from other's but don't use an idea that you personally retconed from a rival Robin. This would burn less if the hack job on new 52 Tim was done by a different writer. It would still burn but it would seem less callous and malicious. 

More evidence that editorial really should be doing better or are things so fractured and competitive that they don't care about damage to good characters outside their office[I'm assuming that RHATO isn't undr the Bat office]

Having now read the annual it was a fun story but cost was too much. Tim was a proven good seller I doubt he will ever be back where he was before Damian and Jason crashed the party but he can be restored to the guy fans liked and found so relateable if only writers would stop treating the things that made him unique like the spoils of war [was never a fan of *HOW* Tim figured out the identities in the original origin but still pissed off with the whole now Duke figured out Bruce, Dick and Damian's identity, Duke balances love, school and crime fighting situation].

Can I ask how do you feel about this new addition? Do you like it/ Do you think it's necessary or benefits Jason in anyway aside from material for more angsting over the golden boy/ trying to measure up and the like.

----------


## TheCape

> The amount of online debates I've had with fans and gamers where I've had to make a case that Jason isn't a killer suggest otherwise and the comments on YouTube, game boards and tumbler prove that a large number don't know or don't like admitting that maybe he isn't this punisher type guy. I've had people quoting his confirmed kill no to me like that's an important achievement. I think more fans than we would like to believe like the idea of him as a killer. Personally I don't much care but he is more interesting when he is clearly operating in a manner that even Bruce would frown upon which he hasn't done in a while.


Jason is or was a killer, that's a fact, he killed criminals and even was a mob boss for a while, he has standards,wasn't  a monster and sort of consider himself as doing a necesary evil because he consider Bruce code to be outdated, at least that was Pre-Flashpoint Jason in characther (aka written by Winnick), tip toing the line of anti hero or villain with standards. Post New 52 Jason story is less clear, but i think that he has killed people before at some point. So i don't see why people are discussing if he is or not.

----------


## Aioros22

> As a Dick fan I like that message because I don't think the others measure up to him and I don't mind confirmation and reminders that Dick is the gold standard that they all aspire to but I would hate any writing that had Damian so smitten to the point he was flustered about talking to Jason. I would hate any indication that Tim and Damian were anything other than equals at best because I rate them more than Jason. Surprised that some Jason fans actually don't seem to mind..


Oh we do, is just that some of us don`t read the flubbering as Jason in awe of Dick so much as Jason sucking in admitting he could use the help of someone outside his inner circle or that he respects him or even that he would ever told him on his face. Dick suffers the same thing, in having difficulties verbalizing it, but we also know he thinks in high regard of Jason being the better big brother or the hardest working Robin. 

Regardless, this is one story and so far with or without a more civil relationship, Loedbell has never written Jason as thinking he`s inferior to Batman, let alone Nigthwing. Admitting he respects what Dick represented doesn`t change that outcome, not anymore than admitting the same to Bruce, nor do I see why it should. These are emotional arguments, not ones of value.

----------


## CPSparkles

I nearly tossed the issue when he made out with her instead of reacting like any reasonable person who has seen 1st hand what she can/ has/ will continue to do to achieve her goal.

At least have him put her in prison every time and then have her escape. That way writers can still use her.

----------


## Aahz

> Can I ask how do you feel about this new addition? Do you like it/ Do you think it's necessary or benefits Jason in anyway aside from material for more angsting over the golden boy/ trying to measure up and the like.


If the question was adressed at me. I'm not a big fan of it. Personally I think they should put finally an end to Jason "angsting over the golden boy". 
My hope was actually that Lobdell would use the Annual to elevate Jason a bit, which is imo after his treatment in the last Batfamily cross overs really necessary (yeah that might have been a little bit at Dicks expense, but Dick is in such a strong position at the moment, that it wouldn't be really a problem for his character).

I really hope Jason doesn't suddenly also become an admirer of Kate to in the next TEC arc, too.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Oh we do, is just that some of us don`t read the flubbering as Jason in awe of Dick so much as Jason sucking in admitting he could use the help of someone outside his inner circle or that he respects him or even that he would ever told him on his face. Dick suffers the same thing, in having difficulties verbalizing it, but we also know he thinks in high regard of Jason being the better big brother or the hardest working Robin. 
> 
> Regardless, this is one story and so far with or without a more civil relationship, Loedbell has never written Jason as thinking he`s inferior to Batman, let alone Nigthwing. Admitting he respects what Dick represented doesn`t change that outcome, not anymore than admitting the same to Bruce, nor do I see why it should. These are emotional arguments, not ones of value.


That scene clearly was Jason having difficulty asking someone for help, so I'm surprised to see it interpreted any other way. Artemis even remarked on it - how both Dick and Jason couldn't just say things. 

And as for whether other writers will follow suit...Jason has been shown patrolling with Dick in the Nightwing comic. Dick even asked him for advice.

----------


## Caivu

> I really hope Jason doesn't suddenly also become an admirer of Kate to in the next TEC arc, too.


Well, he kinda already _is._ Just to a much lesser extent.

----------


## TheCape

> I nearly tossed the issue when he made out with her instead of reacting like any reasonable person who has seen 1st hand what she can/ has/ will continue to do to achieve her goal.
> 
> At least have him put her in prison every time and then have her escape. That way writers can still use her.


Eh, what are you talking about it?

----------


## Alycat

> I nearly tossed the issue when he made out with her instead of reacting like any reasonable person who has seen 1st hand what she can/ has/ will continue to do to achieve her goal.
> 
> At least have him put her in prison every time and then have her escape. That way writers can still use her.


What do you mean?

----------


## Assam

> Eh, what are you talking about it?


I think they were going back to Talia.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Oh we do, is just that some of us don`t read the flubbering as Jason in awe of Dick so much as Jason sucking in admitting he could use the help of someone outside his inner circle or that he respects him or even that he would ever told him on his face. Dick suffers the same thing, in having difficulties verbalizing it, but we also know he thinks in high regard of Jason being the better big brother or the hardest working Robin. 
> 
> Regardless, this is one story and so far with or without a more civil relationship, Loedbell has never written Jason as thinking he`s inferior to Batman, let alone Nigthwing. Admitting he respects what Dick represented doesn`t change that outcome, not anymore than admitting the same to Bruce, nor do I see why it should. These are emotional arguments, not ones of value.


Thing is there is plenty of in story evidence showing that Dick as better big brother I don't think anyone even Dick can question Dick's in that department after how he turned Damian around also the hardest working Robin thing rings hallow when we have plenty of material showing other Robins working as hard and harder than Robin Jason. When we have others showing that they are willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good.
So I don't buy Dick thinking that way. I do buy stories where he has guilty about Jason and their early relationship.

----------


## yohyoi

I think Jason fans overvalue his position in the Bat family. I never saw Jason as equal to Dick in any comics I have read. The whole point of Jason was to show the dangers of being a sidekick and being a foil to Dick's true heroism.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I think they were going back to Talia.





> What do you mean?


I'm quite late in my replies too busy and really should not be online talking comics right now but it's amazing how something can tick you off.

----------


## Assam

> I think Jason fans overvalue his position in the Bat family. I never saw Jason as equal to Dick in any comics I have read. The whole point of Jason was to show the dangers of being a sidekick and being a foil to Dick's true heroism.


Probably has to do with the fact that I find the statement "Dick's true heroism" f**king hilarious, but even as someone who is a very mild fan of Jason, I see the two as equals. And while for the longest time I was in the camp that wished Jason had stayed dead, one thing I NEVER liked was the victim blaming and the declarations that he was a lesser Robin or a screw-up and that's why he died, when THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

The only thing I take issue regarding 'overvaluing his position' is when some fans say that Jason is core BatFam, but Tim and Cass (usually Cass) aren't.

----------


## Alycat

> Thing is there is plenty of in story evidence showing that Dick as better big brother I don't think anyone even Dick can question Dick's in that department after how he turned Damian around also the hardest working Robin thing rings hallow when we have plenty of material showing other Robins working as hard and harder than Robin Jason. When we have others showing that they are willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good.
> So I don't buy Dick thinking that way. I do buy stories where he has guilty about Jason and their early relationship.


I don't think it meant that Jason was a better brother overall just that he was better to Bizzaro than Dick has ever been for him. Which is true. Dicks success with Damian doesn't cancel out his failures with Jason.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, he kinda already _is._ Just to a much lesser extent.


When, where, how?

----------


## TheCape

> I think they were going back to Talia.





> 'm quite late in my replies too busy and really should not be online talking comics right now but it's amazing how something can tick you off.


Understandable if that's the case, is just that i find weird complaining about Talia in the Tim thread.

----------


## TheCape

> Probably has to do with the fact that I find the statement "Dick's true heroism" f**king hilarious, but even as someone who is a very mild fan of Jason, I see the two as equals. And while for the longest time I was in the camp that wished Jason had stayed dead, one thing I NEVER liked was the victim blaming and the declarations that he was a lesser Robin or a screw-up and that's why he died, when THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.


Hey, Richard is a true hero, that has winning the respect of others, just that he can be a dick about it :Smile: 




> The only thing I take issue regarding 'overvaluing his position' is when some fans say that Jason is core BatFam, but Tim and Cass (usually Cass) aren't.


Specially when you consider than the Batfamily wasn't around when he started.

----------


## yohyoi

> Probably has to do with the fact that I find the statement "Dick's true heroism" f**king hilarious, but even as someone who is a very mild fan of Jason, I see the two as equals. And while for the longest time I was in the camp that wished Jason had stayed dead, one thing I NEVER liked was the victim blaming and the declarations that he was a lesser Robin or a screw-up and that's why he died, when THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.
> 
> The only thing I take issue regarding 'overvaluing his position' is when some fans say that Jason is core BatFam, but Tim and Cass (usually Cass) aren't.


I respect your opinion. I can see why you may think that, but I think you may agree he is stuck in a literary dead end.

----------


## Aioros22

> *Thing is there is plenty of in story evidence showing that Dick as better big brother* I don't think anyone even Dick can question Dick's in that department after how he turned Damian around also the hardest working Robin thing rings hallow when we have plenty of material showing other Robins working as hard and harder than Robin Jason. When we have others showing that they are willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good.
> So I don't buy Dick thinking that way. I do buy stories where he has guilty about Jason and their early relationship.


Not according to what Dick says in this story. It goes both ways. 

Jason is the better big brother and the hardest working Robin, at least compared to himself. Dick admitting that makes me realize Loedbell is bringing back something that fandom usually forgets: Jason was a grade A national level student and for the most part managed to balance his two lives until the whole deal with his anger kicked in. Dick in comparison was a college droput. 

Jason pretty much _had_ to work harder because he didn`t have it as easy. He was living up a legacy and trying to manage being his own person while moving up a harsher upbringing than any of them. 

Tim is pretty much the one character who can come close to say that, at least in terms of the weight of the legacy behind him.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Probably has to do with the fact that I find the statement "Dick's true heroism" f**king hilarious, but even as someone who is a very mild fan of Jason, I see the two as equals. And while for the longest time I was in the camp that wished Jason had stayed dead, one thing I NEVER liked was the victim blaming and the declarations that he was a lesser Robin or a screw-up and that's why he died, when THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.


Couldn't agree more. (Except I actually liked having him back) 
Even googling his history should tell you the writers were never actually smart enough to think of or plan out using him as a foil. Its entirely a result of a public vote to kill a kid character that they then tried very hard to backpedal by saying he deserved it.

"Dick's true heroism" Reducing him to golden boy grayson like he's not a character with his own flaws and mistakes only makes him flat and uninteresting. His very wide history can certainly attest he's more human than he is heroism and that should be a good thing for his character development.

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## Aioros22

> I respect your opinion. I can see why you may think that, but I think you may agree he is stuck in a literary dead end.


If you go that line of reasoning they all are. 

Dick lives perpetually in the junior Batman living room, Jason lives perpetually as the second of a legacy line, Tim lives perpetually behind the sacrífice Jason did and Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"

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## yohyoi

> If you go that line of reasoning they all are. 
> 
> Dick lives perpetually in the junior Batman living room, Jason lives perpetually as the second of a legacy line, Tim lives perpetually behind the sacrífice Jason did and Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"


I agree, but Dick did become Batman for a while, so he did progress. We can now tell stories of Dick Batman and people will not see it fully as blasphemy.

Dick is also lucky that the Titans franchise revolves around him. Dick might not be the top dog of the Bat family, but he is in the Titans franchise. This gives Dick space away from the shadow of Batman.

I'm expecting DC to push more Nightwing and Agent 37 in the future. I believe these identities can stand on their own, especially Agent 37.

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## Aahz

> Dick suffers the same thing, in having difficulties verbalizing it, but we also know he thinks in high regard of Jason being the better big brother or the hardest working Robin.


He didn't call him the hardest working Robin.

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## Aioros22

> He didn't call him the hardest working Robin.


Compared to himself? He did. There`s no other reason he would especifically mention Jason`s studies while being Robin and wanting to be his own men instead of living under his shadow.

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## Aioros22

> I agree, but Dick did become Batman for a while, so he did progress. We can now tell stories of Dick Batman and people will not see it fully as blasphemy.
> 
> Dick is also lucky that the Titans franchise revolves around him. Dick might not be the top dog of the Bat family, but he is in the Titans franchise. This gives Dick space away from the shadow of Batman.
> 
> I'm expecting DC to push more Nightwing and Agent 37 in the future. I believe these identities can stand on their own, especially Agent 37.


I don`t buy that line of reasoning of boxing characters in, I`m just saying you can do _that_ for all of them.

Dick and Jason have managed to create a brand outside Batman, however popular they are whereas Tim and Damian has been having more trouble. Super Sons is great but it`s still fundamentally a Batman/Superman narrative.

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## Caivu

> When, where, how?


Screenshot_20170831-154530.jpg

And in Batman Eternal during the Brazil stuff, he has no problem at all accepting her as an ally; doesn't question it one bit. Like I said, it's a lesser form of admiration than the annual showed between him and Dick, but it's still there. In this case, it's the kind of admiration one has for a peer, as opposed to a mentor or someone of higher status.

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## Assam

> Specially when you consider than the Batfamily wasn't around when he started.


Not sure what annoys me more. Jason fans claiming he's more important that Tim and Cass despite the modern BatFamily only becoming a thing after his death and the fact that (as Red Hood) he's never been as close with Bruce as the other two middle kids, OR, Damian fans claiming that he's more important, either because they just hate Tim and Cass or because they think him being Bruce's biological son automatically makes him more important. 

Actually, yeah, the second one is definitely more irritating. 

Despite my vastly differing feelings on them, I  think all 5 of Bruce's kids are undeniably core BatFam, and those who think otherwise just want their favorite to be seen as more special.

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## yohyoi

> I don`t buy that line of reasoning of boxing characters in, I`m just saying you can do _that_ for all of them.
> 
> Dick and Jason have managed to create a brand outside Batman, however popular they are whereas Tim and Damian has been having more trouble. Super Sons is great but it`s still fundamentally a Batman/Superman narrative.


Damian will always be in the Batman brand. HE IS THE FRIKKIN' SON OF BATMAN!

Jason having a brand outside Batman is debatable outside of comics. He is mostly used as an antagonist in Batman's story. It helps his popularity but like a lot of Gotham villains, it limits solo stories potential. Which is why I said that he is stuck in a literary dead end more than the others except Tim.

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## Aioros22

Sorry, despite less publication time, both Pre and post crisis, he was definatly close to Bruce. Otherwise UTRH doesn`t pan out. 

During his time you had him, Barbara, Bruce, Nigthwing and Bette. But sure, it only really became a thing in the 90`s when it expanded crazy.

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## kiwiliko

> Not sure what annoys me more. Jason fans claiming he's more important that Tim and Cass despite the modern BatFamily only becoming a thing after his death and the fact that (as Red Hood) he's never been as close with Bruce as the other two middle kids, OR, Damian fans claiming that he's more important, either because they just hate Tim and Cass or because they think him being Bruce's biological son automatically makes him more important. 
> 
> Actually, yeah, the second one is definitely more irritating. 
> 
> Despite my vastly differing feelings on them, I  think all 5 of Bruce's kids are undeniably core BatFam, and those who think otherwise just want their favorite to be seen as more special.



Honest to god I have never heard someone that has read well into DC and still manages to say to themselves bruce's kids aren't important or family.
Your first point is definitely annoying but I raise yours it's more likely to see someone just flat out ignore both Cass and Jason to focus on Tim as main Robin.
Second point is so much nastier because there should be no denying that this point DC is playing up the blood soon importance HARD and will often put down Bruce's other family to do so. It's not just the fans.

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## Assam

> Sorry, despite less publication time, both Pre and post crisis, he was definatly close to Bruce. Otherwise UTRH doesn`t pan out. 
> 
> During his time you had him, Barbara, Bruce, Nigthwing and Bette. But sure, it only really became a thing in the 90`s when it expanded crazy.


You did catch the part where I said "as Red Hood", right? 

Also, by the time Jason became Robin, Babs was retired, and Bette was barely around. And Dick was MOSTLY confined to Titans.

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## yohyoi

> Honest to god I have never heard someone that has read well into DC and still manages to say to themselves bruce's kids aren't important or family.
> Your first point is definitely annoying but I raise yours it's more likely to see someone just flat out ignore both Cass and Jason to focus on Tim as main Robin.
> Second point is so much nastier because there should be no denying that this point DC is playing up the blood soon importance HARD and will often put down Bruce's other family to do so. It's not just the fans.


In Damian's defence, a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.

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## okiedokiewo

> In Damian's defence, a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.


No. An adopted child is not "extended family."

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## CPSparkles

> I do like the idea that Batman will go against the rules he firmly sets on others, both because it adds a level of hypocrisy to the character, making him more interesting, and also (And you should have known I was gonna bring this up ) because it re-enforces the fact that no one, not even Bruce, is as dedicated to what  the Bat means as Cass.
> 
> EDIT: Although, bringing her up, its telling how inconsistent things are between when Cass showed up and when Damian showed up and now. Bruce spent a good long while in Cass's book REFUSING to believe that she'd ever killed someone, looking for evidence to the contrary and horrified by the fact that she even MIGHT have killed someone when she was little. Then you get to Damian where he's like "Okay, you killed people, but stop it, kay thanks, Dick take care of this kid, will ya?" Or now with Jason, "Kill if you've got to, I don't really care, I need to go have Lucius design some yellow costumes." Hell, go all the way back to Knightfall, and the entire reason they were Hell bent on taking JPV down was because he'd killed ONE criminal.


Batman should not be fine with any of his killing and shouldn't dismiss it if they have. I can't comment on Cass but seeing his 10 yr old in that state beaten bloodied bone s broken and parts of him bent to distorted to the extent they were by one of your enemies and watching him kill this guy who will not stop till line is erased under the belief that he is saving his father and his castle. After Cassandra yeah it's not so shocking that readers and writers can accepting assasin kids in the bat family coupled with the conditioned and abused from birth thing. I can see Batman viewing it as what it is. This is what Damian knows, the life he and Cass have led and their environment it's normal and a world class detective who has seem the stuff Bruce has should not be surprised or expect anything else form these two. As a hero he has to help them unlearn and see the real world and how to handle problems.

Jason however isn't a child nor is he conditioned to react this way. he is aware that killing is wrong has always been aware so he doesn't fall under the same umbrella. If Cass and Damian can unlearn taking the 'easy' way out and learn that you don't the right to kill another human being then Jason can. I don't see Batman giving his go ahead to someone who chooses to kill. but maybe readers don't mind since we've seen batman change and slide deeper into the grey.

The irony is that the concept of Batman was never one that would ever be effective. His mission will never end Gotham will never be safe and he has a manor full of orphans/ kids displaced from their parents thanks to criminals proving that years on lots of kids still do feel and go through what he did. He helps a lot and has saves the world a bunch but he will never achieve his vow.

Cass well we can guess but until bear that weight for a reasonable amount of time we can't tell how she will fair.

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## Assam

> Batman should not be fine with any of his killing and shouldn't dismiss it if they have. I can't comment on Cass but seeing his 10 yr old in that state beaten bloodied bone s broken and parts of him bent to distorted to the extent they were by one of your enemies and watching him kill this guy who will not stop till line is erased under the belief that he is saving his father and his castle. After Cassandra yeah it's not so shocking that readers and writers can accepting assasin kids in the bat family coupled with the conditioned and abused from birth thing. I can see Batman viewing it as what it is. This is what Damian knows, the life he and Cass have led and their environment it's normal and a world class detective who has seem the stuff Bruce has should not be surprised or expect anything else form these two. As a hero he has to help them unlearn and see the real world and how to handle problems.
> 
> Jason however isn't a child nor is he conditioned to react this way. he is aware that killing is wrong has always been aware so he doesn't fall under the same umbrella. If Cass and Damian can unlearn taking the 'easy' way out and learn that you don't the right to kill another human being then Jason can. I don't see Batman giving his go ahead to someone who chooses to kill. but maybe readers don't mind since we've seen batman change and slide deeper into the grey.
> 
> The irony is that the concept of Batman was never one that would ever be effective. His mission will never end Gotham will never be safe and he has a manor full of orphans/ kids displaced from their parents thanks to criminals proving that years on lots of kids still do feel and go through what he did. He helps a lot and has saves the world a bunch but he will never achieve his vow.
> 
> Cass will we can guess but until bear that weight for a reasonable amount of time we can't tell how she will fair.


Fair enough on most of your thoughts, we simply read it differently, but, because this is partly what I'm here for, a correction about Cass: She isn't like Damian. She never had to unlearn what she was taught or needed Bruce to give her a morality lesson. She killed one person, singular, not even realizing what she was doing, and the instant she did so, she realized how monstrous killing is, and ran away.

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## Caivu

> In Damian's defence, *a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.*


Woooooow. How can you think something this wrong?

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## kaimaciel

All this because Jason went to the Haly Circus one time and saw Dick? 

Jason didn't take anything from Tim's origin. He didn't see the Grayson's fall, he didn't know Dick turned out to be Robin. All he saw was a boy, a few years older than him, doing amazing things on a circus while he was being abused at home. He admired what that Acrobat could do and how free he was when compared to his life.

Years later, Jason probably realized that boy was Dick Grayson, and that only made him angrier because he was now competing with Dick's legacy as Robin and Dick were too mad at Bruce to even treat Jason as a brother. It is possible to admire and resent someone at the same time, it happens between Bruce and all his sons.

This isn't like in the animated series where the creators purposely used Jason's origin and personally to create a second Robin who was Tim Drake in name only (they admitted it).

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## kiwiliko

> Jason however isn't a child nor is he conditioned to react this way. he is aware that killing is wrong has always been aware so he doesn't fall under the same umbrella. If Cass and Damian can unlearn taking the 'easy' way out and learn that you don't the right to kill another human being then Jason can. I don't see Batman giving his go ahead to someone who chooses to kill. but maybe readers don't mind since we've seen batman change and slide deeper into the grey.


Disagree so so hard with this. Jason has never acknowledged " killing is wrong" in this sense. Your opinion that he chooses so as the easy way out needs to operate on the basis "killing is wrong" as an objective truth. He has actually believed in a permanent solution since he was a child and acted as Robin and it's apparent from the events with Felipe. Theres no him being aware of himself as wrong just because complete absolutes isn't how his point of view works. There's very nice themes to be explored and I could argue all day about how much Jason and Bruce contrast in terms of deontology and teleology but even in real life applications Jasons ideals have a point. 
His lines are drawn at serial killers and mass murders/criminals and he states it very clearly in UtRH. If Bruce is meant to embody a vigilante idea of justice, Jason similarly draws parallels to our use of the death sentence. That isn't to say theres flaws and benefits to both of their viewpoints but their dynamic reflects a moral debate found nearly everywhere and doesn't need to be reduced to 'Jason kills because hes wrong and wants it easy'
Jason had a point, when Bruce chooses to save the Joker he also takes on the burden that the Joker will keep taking lives and add to the hundreds hes already taken.

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## yohyoi

> Woooooow. How can you think something this wrong?


I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm just giving an opinion on how people view blood and adoption. There is a saying "Blood runs thicker than water". People are more inclined to elevate their blood members. We can see this in medieval times, a blood kin is in a higher stature than an adopted children. Not everyone is perfect parent who loves their every children equally.

It's not a moral statement, but a defense on human perception. Humanity is still clannish and a lot of cultures in the world, especially in the East, are basedon this.

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## kiwiliko

> In Damian's defence, a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.


I don't want to be mean but this is exactly why I don't like DCs pushing of blood importance.
Damian is cool, but the idea he's more important because blood is just plain out hurtful, directly contradicts the running theme of found family in the Batman series and frankly this isn't something that should ever be said to someone in real life who has gone through adoption.

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## kaimaciel

> I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm just giving an opinion on how people view blood and adoption. There is a saying "Blood runs thicker than water". People are more inclined to elevate their blood members. We can see this in medieval times, a blood kin is in a higher stature than an adopted children. Not everyone is perfect parent who loves their every children equally.
> 
> It's not a moral statement, but a defense on human perception. Humanity is still clannish and a lot of cultures in the world, especially in the East, are basedon this.


The full quote is: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb." This actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics. The saying actually means that bonds that you’ve made by choice are more important than the people that you are bound to by the water of the womb. The saying reflects the fact that the bonds you choose for yourself can mean much more than the ones you don’t have much say in.

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## kiwiliko

> I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm just giving an opinion on how people view blood and adoption. There is a saying "Blood runs thicker than water".


 The full quote is actually blood of the covenent is thicker than water of the womb. 

I also get that this is a widespread attitude but it doesn't make it less unfortunate when DC reinforces it.

Edit: dang nab it Kai beat me to it  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## yohyoi

> I don't want to be mean but this is exactly why I don't like DCs pushing of blood importance.
> Damian is cool, but the idea he's more important because blood is just plain out hurtful, directly contradicts the running theme of found family in the Batman series and frankly this isn't something that should ever be said to someone in real life who has gone through adoption.


I'm not pointing it if it's wrong or right, which some people here thought. I'm sorry for those offended but I was just saying my thoughts on the matter.

But I do agree there is blood importance not only in DC but also in the general audience. When people heard Batman has a son, there were crowds waiting in line. I know some who don't care about the Bat family, but they care about Damian due to being Bruce's son. They see Damian as being an extension of Bruce.

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## kaimaciel

> The full quote is actually blood of the covenent is thicker than water of the womb. 
> 
> I also get that this is a widespread attitude but it doesn't make it less unfortunate when DC reinforces it.
> 
> Edit: dang nab it Kai beat me to it


It's cool. We can share  :Wink:

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## yohyoi

> The full quote is: "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb." This actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics. The saying actually means that bonds that you’ve made by choice are more important than the people that you are bound to by the water of the womb. The saying reflects the fact that the bonds you choose for yourself can mean much more than the ones you don’t have much say in.


I've also heard people use to point out that family comes first. You learn something new everyday.

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## CPSparkles

> In Damian's defence, a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.


This is a very sensitive issue. one people can't commentating without having personal experience to base it on. Even when people do have the personal experience the likelyhood that they would ever admit to liking biological kids who share their genes look like them and possibly have mannerisms etc similar to you or someone else you love better than an adopted child is very very low.

I like to think Bruce loves all his kids regardless. IT's PC, kinder and suit my idea of Bruce better to hold that view but no one can answer this outside of how they personally feel.

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## yohyoi

> This is a very sensitive issue. one people can't commentating without having personal experience to base it on. Even when people do have the personal experience the likelyhood that they would ever admit to liking biological kids who share their genes look like them and possibly have mannerisms etc similar to you or someone else you love better than an adopted child is very very low.
> 
> I like to think Bruce loves all his kids regardless. IT's PC, kinder and suit my idea of Bruce better to hold that view but no one can answer this outside of how they personally feel.


Yup, it did come of as too blunt. Just putting a viewpoint people tend to avoid here. Damian being the blood son helped his popularity a lot. We may not want to think about it, but it did.

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## twincast

> I've also heard people use to point out that family comes first. You learn something new everyday.


Not the only saying that has come to mean the very opposite of its original intent - among countless more used incorrectly in a less extreme way. A similar thing as with popularly misunderstood songs; people just don't bother with researching whether their first impressions/interpretations are actually correct.

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## kiwiliko

> Yup, it did come of as too blunt. Just putting a viewpoint people tend to avoid here. Damian being the blood son helped his popularity a lot. We may not want to think about it, but it did.


Oh it definitely did but I argue it's not just on the consumers. Marketting efforts certainly ramped up for Damian and that's on DC.

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## Assam

DC'S playing up the bio kid as Batman's one and only true kid is PART of what makes me dislIke him, and their doing this with Jon now is ENTIRELY what has made me dislike him.

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## Aioros22

> Disagree so so hard with this. Jason has never acknowledged " killing is wrong" in this sense. Your opinion that he chooses so as the easy way out needs to operate on the basis "killing is wrong" as an objective truth. He has actually believed in a permanent solution since he was a child and acted as Robin and it's apparent from the events with Felipe. Theres no him being aware of himself as wrong just because complete absolutes isn't how his point of view works. There's very nice themes to be explored and I could argue all day about how much Jason and Bruce contrast in terms of deontology and teleology but even in real life applications Jasons ideals have a point. 
> His lines are drawn at serial killers and mass murders/criminals and he states it very clearly in UtRH. If Bruce is meant to embody a vigilante idea of justice, Jason similarly draws parallels to our use of the death sentence. That isn't to say theres flaws and benefits to both of their viewpoints but their dynamic reflects a moral debate found nearly everywhere and doesn't need to be reduced to 'Jason kills because hes wrong and wants it easy'
> Jason had a point, when Bruce chooses to save the Joker he also takes on the burden that the Joker will keep taking lives and add to the hundreds hes already taken.


Jason aknowledges that killing the Penguin and Joker weren`t the same thing. One is a hopeless case, the other isn`t.

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## godisawesome

I've always kind of thought that Tim and Damian were kind of equals as Bruce's sons due to their different temperaments and circumstances. While Tim is arguably the classic "dutiful son" like Dick, and seems to have taken just as naturally to Batman's code while also _seeking_ out Batman to help him and acting as philosophical _reinforcement_ for Batman's crusade, Damian is a kind of a primordial "prodigal son" like Jason (who fits the more traditional sense of the trope), who was kind of _foisted_ on an unsuspecting Bruce complete with a twisted version of Bruce's view of Justice. I think Tim and Damian's equality in Bruce's love is best demonstrated by how easily Bruce and Tim get along in spite of how professional their partnership was while Damian and Bruce have some struggles but still love each other.

In a way, the dutiful son-prodigal son dynamic should be the basis for Tim's interactions with both Jason and Damian, though from different areas: Tim and Damian have a more emotional conflict created by their opposing paths it Batman, while Tim and Jason have a kind of philosophical difference in their maturation stemming from the same event (I.e., Jason's death). Tim and Jason being able to get along with some comradery makes sense, but I think there should be some occasionally serious debate between them; Jason focused on a more pragmatic but intimate approach to justice with an admitted past of overkill, and Tim focusing on seemingly more idealistic but also holistic approach to justice, compounded by either earned confidence or arrogance that he's a master of self control.

I feel like Tim and Damian's personalities should clash in part because of their similarities (which they'd vehemently deny) as peer geniuses with some introverted and elitist tendencies, in spite of their differences, while Jason and Tim should seemingly get along because of their similarities, with some undertones of competition and judgement in regards to the core differences with which they view the world.

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## CPSparkles

> Not sure what annoys me more. Jason fans claiming he's more important that Tim and Cass despite the modern BatFamily only becoming a thing after his death and the fact that (as Red Hood) he's never been as close with Bruce as the other two middle kids, OR, Damian fans claiming that he's more important, either because they just hate Tim and Cass or because they think him being Bruce's biological son automatically makes him more important. 
> 
> Actually, yeah, the second one is definitely more irritating. 
> 
> Despite my vastly differing feelings on them, I  think all 5 of Bruce's kids are undeniably core BatFam, and those who think otherwise just want their favorite to be seen as more special.


I think it's more the blood thing and DC 's putting out stuff implying that. The whole son of batman thing. I've not come across much hate for Cass from Damian fans the opposite infact. His thread has 400= pages and the name cass is barely mentioned on there. The posts that I remember a few and positive pictures showing them and a discussion which You brought up about them interacting which lead to a half page discussion on their similarity and origin so I don't think Damian fans feel much about Cass. Tim on the other hand. they have history, he is a big part of the mythos. There is a rivalry because they threaten each other [ doubt Damian fans will admit such]. Cass isn't Damian's rival or a threat.

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## kiwiliko

> Jason aknowledges that killing the Penguin and Joker weren`t the same thing. One is a hopeless case, the other isn`t.


Ah that is fair. Sorry I probably should have worded it better, I was more aiming to the sense that he didn't percieve all killing as wrong and wouldn't see himself as doing the wrong thing if he went after the joker. More means to an end for him.

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## Aioros22

> Damian will always be in the Batman brand. HE IS THE FRIKKIN' SON OF BATMAN!


Annnd if his fans are happy with just that, all the more power to them. It`s indiferent to me. 




> Jason having a brand outside Batman is debatable outside of comics. He is mostly used as an antagonist in Batman's story. It helps his popularity but like a lot of Gotham villains, it limits solo stories potential. Which is why I said that he is stuck in a literary dead end more than the others except Tim.


That`s not a case of not having the material, it`s a case of WB not expanding it outside comics as of yet. 

If you saw the reactions to Injustice 2 and both his appearances and Starfire in the same game as DLC content, you`ll notice the "Outlaws" being tagged and mentioned alot by the fans. Fans of the character, die-hard or otherwise are _aware_ what the Outlaws are about, whether they buy the book or not. If you`ve followed any of the outcry about requesting Jason showing up in YJ, you`ll notice the fans not only wanting his story to be a pivotal plot but also for him to team up with one of the Roy of the show.

Heck, you have edited vídeos playing with that idea online.

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## Aioros22

> Ah that is fair. Sorry I probably should have worded it better, I was more aiming to the sense that he didn't percieve all killing as wrong and wouldn't see himself as doing the wrong thing if he went after the joker. *More means to an end for him*.


Yeah, that is correct. Just making sure that subtle notion is there, he does have his standards when it comes to targets (which is a chief difference to the Punishr type). Besides Joker he`s especifically mention rapists and anything child related as sure things to get a quick bullet from him. 

The rest will mostly depend if he has not much of other options available, like the Untitled, Vandal Savage or the Iron Rule. Oh, well his standards do have that wiggly room of not having to think much when it comes to robots, cyborgs, alien invasions, immortals, mercenaries and the like..

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## CPSparkles

> I'm not pointing it if it's wrong or right, which some people here thought. I'm sorry for those offended but I was just saying my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> But I do agree there is blood importance not only in DC but also in the general audience. When people heard Batman has a son, there were crowds waiting in line. I know some who don't care about the Bat family, but they care about Damian due to being Bruce's son. They see Damian as being an extension of Bruce.


It's a blessing and a curse. It might generate interest but it automatically turned a lot of fans off especially with DC pushing him as the son when Batman already had sons with very strong bases. Those who hate batman automatically dislike him because he has the same flaws and batgod armour [especially  animated Damian] that people dislike.

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## WhipWhirlwind

I honestly like the idea of Tim being batman's work son, and Damian being his more traditional son, but none of them really getting it. 

Bruce doesn't pay as much fatherly attention to Tim because he's older and from his perspective he doesn't need it, compared to Damian. Tim is envious of Damian due to this.
Bruce allows Tim  more leeway and respect in a professional capacity because he's been doing it longer and more professionally, compared to Damian. Damian is envious of Tim due to this. 

Neither of them communicate these issues to Bruce because they're too stubborn. 

Feel like thats a good foundation to have a contentious sibling rivalry with the occasional heartfelt moment of mutual understanding.

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## Midnighter

> In Damian's defence, a blood son is in another league from an adopted son. People normally feel a lot closer and more responsible to their blood kin compared to their clans or extended families. It's just natural.


Wholeheartedly disagree with this. If one of my children were adopted I'd not love them any less than one who wasn't.

What kind of monster would? And why would someone like that be adopting anyone in the first place?

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## Aioros22

> I've also heard people use to point out that family comes first. You learn something new everyday.


My two cents:

Adopted children _are_ family, both morally and legally.

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## Caivu

> My two cents:
> 
> Adopted children _are_ family, both morally and legally.


Yup. To think otherwise is broken, quite frankly.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> Wholeheartedly disagree with this. If one of my children were adopted I'd not love them any less than one who wasn't.
> 
> What kind of monster would? And why would someone like that be adopting anyone in the first place?


Yeah. That comment was rather uncalled for.  :Frown:

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## oasis1313

> I honestly like the idea of Tim being batman's work son, and Damian being his more traditional son, but none of them really getting it. 
> 
> Bruce doesn't pay as much fatherly attention to Tim because he's older and from his perspective he doesn't need it, compared to Damian. Tim is envious of Damian due to this.
> Bruce allows Tim  more leeway and respect in a professional capacity because he's been doing it longer and more professionally, compared to Damian. Damian is envious of Tim due to this. 
> 
> Neither of them communicate these issues to Bruce because they're too stubborn. 
> 
> Feel like thats a good foundation to have a contentious sibling rivalry with the occasional heartfelt moment of mutual understanding.


Tim's got his own dad.  I hated it when Tim got orphaned for awhile and stuck in with the rest of the clones.

----------


## dietrich

> If you go that line of reasoning they all are. 
> 
> Dick lives perpetually in the junior Batman living room, Jason lives perpetually as the second of a legacy line, Tim lives perpetually behind the sacrífice Jason did and Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"


Which is why the good lord sent  Jurgens to write a future where Damian does indeed become Batman and decides that he doesn't want it afterall. Sure he turned a bit Dr evilish and not one we want but he achieved his goal and He stepped out of his father's shadow running smack into his grandfathers. But in the end he steps out of that as well freeing himself from the weight of the legacies, destiny and expectation placed because BLOOD Child. He is now Damian and free.

Bruce's own words 'surpassed even me at my peak', Damian besting terry and the suit, saving Terry's life and telling him he could do was fanastic.

It is a dead end but this story is also a path We just don't get to be there.
Terry wanting throwing a party for Damian in the Batcave with confetti, borrowing Damian's clothes at the end! hell's yeah Damian watches BB all day and proudly. Terry is golden to the Damian and his fan's all so yeah "nananana Batman!" all the way

Sorry Tim fans for non Tim post but Aioros22 is a fisherman.

So to be clear 3 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick is in the corner looking smug. That is where we are at this point.

Golden boy boy indeed.

----------


## Aioros22

All that passive agressiveness for a line of reasoning I didn`t said to agree and just point out. 

*clap hands* 

Too cute.

----------


## kiwiliko

> So to be clear 3 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick is in the corner looking smug. That is where we are at this point..


^this is literally the whole reason I'd like this drama to die off. Non dick robins just look bad now because apparently the privilege to visit the circus and be inspired by Dick is something that needed to be fought over like table scraps and this isn't something that's needed in a Tim appreciation thread.

Also given the amount of alternate Damians we've seen, very little casual fans would be interested in even more alternate future Damians. I don't think Aioros was referring to lack of future for the character in verse, more lack of future for telling stories about a character. Damians bloodson status has gotten him waaay more benefits from DC than anything else, it's barely percieved as a barrier to his development I could even argue it's played up for marketting purposes.

----------


## Miles To Go

It's now been confirmed officially that Tim's captor Oz is *spoilers:*
Jor-El
*end of spoilers*

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09...-989-revealed/

----------


## dietrich

> ^this is literally the whole reason I'd like this drama to die off. Non dick robins just look bad now because apparently the privilege to visit the circus and be inspired by Dick is something that needed to be fought over like table scraps and this isn't something that's needed in a Tim appreciation thread.
> 
> Also given the amount of alternate Damians we've seen, very little casual fans would be interested in even more alternate future Damians. I don't think Aioros was referring to lack of future for the character in verse, more lack of future for telling stories about a character. Damians bloodson status has gotten him waaay more benefits from DC than anything else, it's barely percieved as a barrier to his development I could even argue it's played up for marketting purposes.


Batman Beyond isn't an alternate world Casual fans don't read comics so that is moot.Comics fans don't mind will always care about any good stories regardless of setting and as a Damian fan the blood thing only generates envy. It might generate interest and offer an added marketing like the they are following with the Supersons but it comics it hasn't helped since he is not even handled by the bat office, has little contact with Bruce.
The strength of his character is what makes fan's like me give my cash to DC despite how badly they handle him not the title. 


The drama and fighting over Dick is all on Lobdell.

----------


## dietrich

> All that passive agressiveness for a line of reasoning I didn`t said to agree and just point out. 
> 
> *clap hands* 
> 
> Too cute.


You should cut down on your salt levels  then mate.

----------


## dietrich

Again apologies to Drake fans I'm done here.

----------


## TheCape

Something that i think that Tynion is going to do with Tim is play with one his flaws as a characther, how selfish Tim can be.

Now, Tim has always been a very nice and empathetic kid since his early days, but he has a tendency to think what is better for others and doesn't take into account their feelings from time to time and thinks that he have all the answer, his relationship with Stephanie show some shades of that. But what i wonder, is what direction is going to take it, is going to be characther development from Tim to grow out of that flaw or he is going to go for a more antagonistic role toward the Bat Family for some time.

Thoughts?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Something that i think that Tynion is going to do with Tim is play with one his flaws as a characther, how selfish Tim can be.
> 
> Now, Tim has always been a very nice and empathetic kid since his early days, but he has a tendency to think what is better for others and doesn't take into account their feelings from time to time and thinks that he have all the answer, his relationship with Stephanie show some shades of that. But what i wonder, is what direction is going to take it, is going to be characther development from Tim to grow out of that flaw or he is going to go for a more antagonistic role toward the Bat Family for some time.
> 
> Thoughts?


That certainly would be an angle of interest to explore, hopefully one that would further develop him as a character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Again apologies to Drake fans I'm done here.


You're good my man. We all get off of topic from time to time. No big deal.

----------


## TheCape

> That certainly would be an angle of interest to explore, hopefully one that would further develop him as a character.


Thanks, i actually think that Tynion's version of the characther, button fu technology aside (and self repairing buildings, because that would always be dumb). is pretty accurate in comparison with the Dixon days and always saw the work with Nicieza, Yost and later Dixon as what would happen it his wost trait became more prominent, althought an interesting that i won't mind to see again, i'm fine if they go to a different direction this time.

I want to comment a bit about his relationship with Steph here for a bit, althougth people complain about it for having not much build up and being a bit romanticized, wich is fair, i have another take on it. Tim/Steph in Tec' is probably what would they be it Bruce wasn't in his Bat Jerk period in the late 90s (i mean is pretty obvious that Tim wanted to reveal his identity to her before she accepted the only mask dealt), they still would have problems letting to their own devices, the biggest one would be if Tim see her as an equal in crime fighting, but i think that some of that is going to come with his return.

Just my 2 cents in the whole thing.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Something that i think that Tynion is going to do with Tim is play with one his flaws as a characther, how selfish Tim can be.
> 
> Now, Tim has always been a very nice and empathetic kid since his early days, but he has a tendency to think what is better for others and doesn't take into account their feelings from time to time and thinks that he have all the answer, his relationship with Stephanie show some shades of that. But what i wonder, is what direction is going to take it, is going to be characther development from Tim to grow out of that flaw or he is going to go for a more antagonistic role toward the Bat Family for some time.
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't want him antagonistic just some tension or stress that gets resolved fairly quickly. This could be used to develop relationships lost in the reboot.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Thanks, i actually think that Tynion's version of the characther, button fu technology aside (and self repairing buildings, because that would always be dumb). is pretty accurate in comparison with the Dixon days and always saw the work with Nicieza, Yost and later Dixon as what would happen it his wost trait became more prominent, althought an interesting that i won't mind to see again, i'm fine if they go to a different direction this time.
> 
> I want to comment a bit about his relationship with Steph here for a bit, althougth people complain about it for having not much build up and being a bit romanticized, wich is fair, i have another take on it. *Tim/Steph in Tec' is probably what would they be it Bruce wasn't in his Bat Jerk period in the late 90s* (i mean is pretty obvious that Tim wanted to reveal his identity to her before she accepted the only mask dealt), they still would have problems letting to their own devices, the biggest one would be if Tim see her as an equal in crime fighting, but i think that some of that is going to come with his return.
> 
> Just my 2 cents in the whole thing.


Never thought of it like that, but you know, you might just be right. Hopefully the build of their relationship continues to get shown in flashbacks. I'm also interested to see where their relationship goes when Tim returns.

----------


## CPSparkles

> So to be clear 3 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick is in the corner looking smug. That is where we are at this point.
> 
> Golden boy boy indeed.


No 2 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick on the phone with Helena telling her yet again how amazing his little bro Damian is at everything and how he means so much to him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> You should cut down on your salt levels  then mate.


Pointing out a line of reasoning that extends to more than one caracter is flawed isn`t playing with salt. You would know, just look ar your knee jerk reaction over your favorite, "fisherman".

Maybe read the conversation better next time.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Pointing out that a line of reasoning extends to more than one character that wasn`t even my favorite isn`t playing with salt. 
> 
> Maybe read the conversation better next time.


It's the way you put it _Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"_ the watching Terry on Saturday morning singing nananna Batman part  aside from making no sense since because not a thing in the DCU it is an attempted dig at Damian which was not necessary and only the Damian part of your reasoning was garnished in such a way.

----------


## RedBird

> It's the way you put it _Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"_ the watching Terry on Saturday morning singing nananna Batman part  aside from making no sense since because not a thing in the DCU it is an attempted dig at Damian which was not necessary and only the Damian part of your reasoning was garnished in such a way.


Looks more like a dig at all the characters to me, but people get really touchy over favorites huh?

EDIT: correction, not even a real dig. A sarcastic one.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's the way you put it _Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"_ the watching Terry on Saturday morning singing nananna Batman part  aside from making no sense since because not a thing in the DCU it is an attempted dig at Damian which was not necessary and only the Damian part of your reasoning was garnished in such a way.


What I described shows that a line of reasoning that another poster was making is _flawed_. It`s right there in the _conversation_*. Something I especifically mentioned in the same as disagreeing since it boxes characters in. Are they superficial digs, yeah...that`s the reasoning I`m debating. 

I`m more dissapointed at the kneepads than being called "fisherman", I love Aquaman. 



* Convo is required to be read. _Thatsthemlife_.

----------


## dietrich

> Looks more like a dig at all the characters to me, but people get really touchy over favorites huh?
> 
> EDIT: correction, not even a real dig. A sarcastic one.


The dig was directed just at Damian and Yes people do get touchy over their favourites.

----------


## dietrich

> No 2 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick on the phone with Helena telling her yet again how amazing his little bro Damian is at everything and how he means so much to him.


Amended Damian in the corner watching with a superior smug.

----------


## RedBird

> The dig was directed just at Damian


It was clearly a dig at each of them. (Not even a genuine dig at that, when reading the previous conversation)




> If you go that line of reasoning they all are. 
> 
> Dick lives perpetually in the junior Batman living room, Jason lives perpetually as the second of a legacy line, Tim lives perpetually behind the sacrífice Jason did and Damian lives perpetually as the guy who wants to be Batman but won`t ever really take the mantle for real and has to watch Terry on tv on Saturday Morning singing "nananana Batman!"





> Yes people do get touchy over their favourites.


Defense is understandable, but touchy enough to attempt to insult OPs?

----------


## Alycat

> So to be clear 3 male Robin's having this huge fight over who admires Dick the most falling over themselves to prove they have a relationship with him and Dick is in the corner looking smug. That is where we are at this point.
> 
> Golden boy boy indeed.


Theres no fight because even Jason's strained relationship with Dick is better and more interesting than Tim's nonexistent relationship with Dick. Damian occupies a whole other area so yeah no fights.




> Something that i think that Tynion is going to do with Tim is play with one his flaws as a characther, how selfish Tim can be.
> 
> Now, Tim has always been a very nice and empathetic kid since his early days, but he has a tendency to think what is better for others and doesn't take into account their feelings from time to time and thinks that he have all the answer, his relationship with Stephanie show some shades of that. But what i wonder, is what direction is going to take it, is going to be characther development from Tim to grow out of that flaw or he is going to go for a more antagonistic role toward the Bat Family for some time.
> 
> Thoughts?


I wouldn't be surprised but I think its a mistake. People don't like Nu Tim. Thye should fix that before delving into his supposed flaws and going antagonistic before we even get a feel for him would be awful.

----------


## twincast

I despise the very idea of Tim being Bruce's son - both legally and especially emotionally. He was always the independent one with a family (life) of his own, and then well into his teens Bruce suddenly gets upgraded to being Tim's daddy dearest? FTS.




> Not  a fan of Basil? Huh. He seems to be the one thing everyone likes about this book.


The Batfamily shouldn't have a Clayface readily available. A redemption arc for Basil Karlo of all people reeks of mischaracterization. And I've been sick and tired of obviously futile de-monster-fication stories since the old Hulk and Fantastic Four cartoons repeatedly played with wee little me's emotions. And for the sake of completeness, Tynion's Azrael annoys me most of all because the BARE Order of St. Dumas he's sticking with is a ridiculous abomination. The original I loved to hate; this one's just a ludicrous waste of space.

----------


## TheCape

Eh, i would said that Jack and Bruce were even in the father deparment when it came to Tim. Also, Dana was the best parent that Tim ever have and deserved better than just die in Bludhaven and not mentioned again, best stepmother ever

----------


## Caivu

> A redemption arc for Basil Karlo of all people reeks of mischaracterization.


Why? That storyline has its roots on the latter half of the New 52. It has precedent, at least.

----------


## Aahz

> Why? That storyline has its roots on the latter half of the New 52. It has precedent, at least.


Because he is (at least originally) of all the incarnations of Clayface probably the most evil one.

----------


## Caivu

> Because he is (at least originally) of all the incarnations of Clayface probably the most evil one.


I keep hearing this, but have never seen anything to back it up. Besides, if that's true, it means his turn is just that much more profound.

----------


## godisawesome

Karlo was objectively the most duplicitous, ordinarily murderous, and powerful Clayface Pre-Flashpoint, though they seemed to drop the thread of his actual identity and history well before then. Karlo was the only Clayface to murder anyone before he gained his powers, and the fact he was originally just a serial killer driven by jealousy already starts him at a greater level than Hagen the Treasure Hunter, Payne the pitiably insane self-experimenter, Sandra the Kobra experiment, and the other assorted and barely fleshed out Clayfaces. Him then betraying all his compatriots to gain their powers made him the most powerful, since he could shapeshifter and melt people at the same time.

Rebirth Clayface is _not_ that Karlo. He seems to pretty clearly be a variation on the BTAS Clayface, being an actor of some repute, but not a horror star or a serial killer, and with a strong element of tragedy. He also totally lacks the melting touch, and Sandra's ability to mimic powers.

----------


## Caivu

> Rebirth Clayface is _not_ that Karlo.


And he suffered amnesia and became good (or at least an ally) shortly before Rebirth started.

Screenshot_20170903-221942.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> Karlo was objectively the most duplicitous, ordinarily murderous, and powerful Clayface Pre-Flashpoint, though they seemed to drop the thread of his actual identity and history well before then. Karlo was the only Clayface to murder anyone before he gained his powers, and the fact he was originally just a serial killer driven by jealousy already starts him at a greater level than Hagen the Treasure Hunter, Payne the pitiably insane self-experimenter, Sandra the Kobra experiment, and the other assorted and barely fleshed out Clayfaces.


Exactly out of the "Mud-Pack" he is easily the least redeemable one. 





> He also totally lacks the melting touch, and Sandra's ability to mimic powers.


I don't think that he ever had the ability to mimic powers.

----------


## KrustyKid

pillow_fight__by_lucybianchi-d5dhcpr.jpg

PillowFight-small.jpg

Everyone loves a good pillow fight

----------


## KrustyKid

tumblr_og59b1RfHv1rhkqbko1_500.jpg

Cookie time

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

Always nice to see some of the old school stuff

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Wow, that Jurgen's piece almost looks like Breyfogle did it.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

I like his voice, it's suits to Tim.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

It's always good to read the fan letters from the beginning of Tim's career. He really quickly became a fan favourite among the readers.  :Smile:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I've had a few of mine published back in the day.   Miss those.

----------


## Assam

> I like his voice, it's suits to Tim.


Tim and Kon really were the lucky half of the YJ4. Red Robin and Post-Resurrection Kon worked to different extents, but they both served to do serious damage control to the harm done to their characters over several years. Bart and Cassie sadly never got that.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I've had a few of mine published back in the day.   Miss those.


It's a pity they don't publish fan letters anymore, but at this era, I guess they became outdated. We can discuss anything on the net, but still, I feel those made the comics much more personal.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim and Kon really were the lucky half of the YJ4. Red Robin and Post-Resurrection Kon worked to different extents, but they both served to do serious damage control to the harm done to their characters over several years. Bart and Cassie sadly never got that.


Yeah, Bart and Cassie never had a chance to fully recover, thanks to the reboot. And then the New52 made them horrible, unrecognizable characters.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## riddler123

Anyone know why Tim Drake is not mentioned in the New Batman and Harley Quinn Movie. Is he now forgotton in the animated Universe? He was not mentioned in Son of Batman either.

----------


## Assam

> Anyone know why Tim Drake is not mentioned in the New Batman and Harley Quinn Movie. Is he now forgotton in the animated Universe? He was not mentioned in Son of Batman either.


Far as I'm aware, Batman and Harley doesn't actually take place in the old DCAU despite the art style. And with Son of Batman and the movies which have come since, they've given a big middle finger to Tim and every other BatFam member besides Dick and Damian...and Kate, Babsgirl and Luke in Bad Blood.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Anyone know why Tim Drake is not mentioned in the New Batman and Harley Quinn Movie. Is he now forgotton in the animated Universe? He was not mentioned in Son of Batman either.


Tim isn't part of the 'Son of Batman' verse. With the HQ/Batman movie that just seems to be the case of it being its own world, not completely connected to "Batman the Animated series".

----------


## TheCape

Meta on Dick and Tim, the first bat siblings.

http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...-tim-and-dicks

----------


## KrustyKid

> Meta on Dick and Tim, the first bat siblings.
> 
> http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...-tim-and-dicks


That was certainly a nice read.

----------


## TheCape

> That was certainly a nice read.


 :Smile: 

Yeah, i love supporting this 2 were for eacth other, a bond of true brothers

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, i love supporting this 2 were for eacth other, a bond of true brothers


The moment Bitchwing threw it all away

bitchwing is back.jpg

bitchwing is back 2.jpg

And I know I retired that nickname for Dick awhile ago, but here, it's VERY fitting. 

You know it's bad when the "My name is Tim WAYNE" thing isn't the worst part of this. Maybe at the time it was, but back then, we really didn't know how yeah, Dick and Tim's relationship was going to be diminished, salvaged slightly in Gates of Gotham, and then completely erased.  :Frown:

----------


## TheCape

That issue was so meta. :Smile: 

I always saw the "I'm  Tim Wayne" moment, as Tim just wanting to give Damian some payback, his resentment combined with his overall inestability around that period (not helped by the unhealthy way that Tim has been dealing with his own issues), led to that, horrible, but understandqble. Dick's charactherization, was the thing that actually threw me off in the issue.

By the way, what are your issues with Dick, just like Damian i'm also curious about your take.

----------


## Assam

> By the way, what are your issues with Dick, just like Damian i'm also curious about your take.


Well, as you may recall from my ungodly long and possibly still growing ranking of the BatFam on the Cass thread, Dick sat right above Damian and Kate, and right below Harper. Now all three of those characters share basically the same deal for me: Decent characters whose potential appeal to me is hampered by surrounding factors and/or how they've been used. With Dick though, things are much simpler: I think he's a tool. 

At least how I read him (In-character mind you; I know to ignore crap like his being a straight up asshole to Cass for no reason), Dick is your standard smug and arrogant douche who acts like a "nice guy", while always feeling superior to those around him and feels he deserves the world. He's constantly having incredibly attractive women come on to him and everyone around him only serves to boost his unhealthy ego by practically worshiping the ground he walks on, always sure to talk about how Dick is so amazing, and Dick is so nice, and how he represents the best heroes have to offer. And unlike many other characters, when he screws over a bunch of people, everyone is more than happy to instantly forgive him because he's Dick f**king Grayson and he's SO special. There is NOTHING for me to relate to here, and unless their name is Superman or Captain America, that's an important part in me liking a character. 

And I've brought this up before when talking about fan perception of Dick, but there's nothing _special_ about Dick besides his being the first Robin. Nothing that _actually_ makes him better than any other hero. Just fans and writers saying that he's special. Right down to having the most generic sense of humor in the BatFamily, he is painfully bland, with that aforementioned description of his personality being all he has going for him. Oh, except for when he's angsting about being in Bruce's shadow. With four other 'Wayne' kids and a bunch of other Bat-Characters, that's _totally_ not just him being whiny and self-absorbed. 

Now if you're wondering why after all of that, Dick isn't at the bottom of my ranking with Sasha, it's because, mostly out of nostalgia from when I was kid who loved Nightwing, I do have some affection toward some of the relationships he has with characters I DO love. Tim, Toni, Wally, Roy, Cass (The few times they met when they were both being written properly), etc. Not NEARLY enough to make me overlook Dick's general unlikability (Just in terms of characterization, I frankly like DUKE more), but it is enough to put him above all the characters I don't care about at all.

----------


## scary harpy

> Well, as you may recall from my ungodly long and possibly still growing ranking of the BatFam on the Cass thread, Dick sat right above Damian and Kate, and right below Harper. Now all three of those characters share basically the same deal for me: Decent characters whose potential appeal to me is hampered by surrounding factors and/or how they've been used. With Dick though, things are much simpler: I think he's a tool. 
> 
> ...
> 
> Now if you're wondering why after all of that, Dick isn't at the bottom of my ranking with Sasha, it's because, mostly out of nostalgia from when I was kid who loved Nightwing, I do have some affection toward some of the relationships he has with characters I DO love. Tim, Toni, Wally, Roy, Cass (The few times they met when they were both being written properly), etc. Not NEARLY enough to make me overlook Dick's general unlikability (Just in terms of characterization, I frankly like DUKE more), but it is enough to put him above all the characters I don't care about at all.


I'm glad you posted this.

Your perspective has shown me Grayson in a new light. I'm gonna need to reread my issues of Nightwing. 

Flaws make a character more relatable but I don't think this is being done intentionally. Very interesting.

----------


## TheCape

> Well, as you may recall from my ungodly long and possibly still growing ranking of the BatFam on the Cass thread, Dick sat right above Damian and Kate, and right below Harper. Now all three of those characters share basically the same deal for me: Decent characters whose potential appeal to me is hampered by surrounding factors and/or how they've been used. With Dick though, things are much simpler: I think he's a tool.
> 
> ...
> 
> Now if you're wondering why after all of that, Dick isn't at the bottom of my ranking with Sasha, it's because, mostly out of nostalgia from when I was kid who loved Nightwing, I do have some affection toward some of the relationships he has with characters I DO love. Tim, Toni, Wally, Roy, Cass (The few times they met when they were both being written properly), etc. Not NEARLY enough to make me overlook Dick's general unlikability (Just in terms of characterization, I frankly like DUKE more), but it is enough to put him above all the characters I don't care about at all.


I sort of get your point, but i have to disagreed in some things, i think that when he was written by Wolfman and Dixon, they show both his good and bad qualities and he is actually called out for his BS, very often (Roy and Donna mainly, Wally and Barbara sometimes) and he has that whole ship on his shoulder about not wanting to be like and sort of taking his aproach anyway, no matter how much he hated it. Cocky, this seem more in the vein of Seely/King (who i despise), but althought Dick like to trash talk enemies, is usually for strategic purposes, once lifes are on the line he is pretty quick at shutting up and he can be witty and charming when he is in playfull mood (being way more aproachable than Bruce also help), i also think that people are a bit quick in forgiving him, for the same reason that Batman (when he is in bat jerk territory), he is reliable and you can count in his work ethics to get the mission done. I think that people can praise a bit to much and forget his bad qualities far too often too (point again, Seely/Kings Nightwing).

----------


## KrustyKid

Lol, this one was actually kinda funny.

Timreplace.jpg

----------


## Mongul778

> The moment Bitchwing threw it all away
> 
> Attachment 54546
> 
> Attachment 54547
> 
> And I know I retired that nickname for Dick awhile ago, but here, it's VERY fitting. 
> 
> You know it's bad when the "My name is Tim WAYNE" thing isn't the worst part of this. Maybe at the time it was, but back then, we really didn't know how yeah, Dick and Tim's relationship was going to be diminished, salvaged slightly in Gates of Gotham, and then completely erased.


Really? You think Dick's the one being a "bitch" in this scene eh? The reason why he didn't want him as his sidekick was because he considered Tim, his equal. He didn't want to be Batman, the thing was kind of forced on him. But since he did end up with the role he hated, and someone needed to control loose canon that is Damian, well he chose the lesser of 2 evils. I'm not going to criticize a character in his own appreciation thread....but "Tim Wayne" speaks for itself.

----------


## Assam

> Lol, this one was actually kinda funny.
> 
> Timreplace.jpg


AWWW. I admit, I laughed.  :Big Grin: 




> Really? You think Dick's the one being a "bitch" in this scene eh? The reason why he didn't want him as his sidekick was because he considered Tim, his equal. He didn't want to be Batman, the thing was kind of forced on him. But since he did end up with the role he hated, and someone needed to control loose canon that is Damian, well he chose the lesser of 2 evils.


Dick is at fault for being a TERRIBLE older brother here. He considered Tim his equal? OK. Doesn't change the fact that he was _clearly_ hurting badly, far worse than him, and Dick couldn't see that. Hell, if he DID  see it, then its even worse. Because if that's the case, he was prioritizing his feelings over Tim's, and, as Tim points out, Dick was choosing someone he KNEW he hated, someone who had tried to murder him not long ago in-universe and was actively still mocking him. This isn't a matter of hero and sidekick, this is a matter of big brother little brother, and Dick dropped the ball hard. 

Also, "the thing was kind of forced on him". Yeah, "forced" is a good word. Dick didn't want the job, Tim wasn't qualified and Jason was still killing people? Well gee, I guess Dick didn't have a choice. It's not like there was another BatFam member for whom none of those things would be a problem, and was stated in canon as being groomed to be Bruce's successor, and the only reason they didn't take the mantle, or Hell, even be INVOLVED in Battle for the Cowl was because editorial hates them, OH WAIT.  :Mad:

----------


## Frontier

> Lol, this one was actually kinda funny.
> 
> Timreplace.jpg


Reminds me of this exchange with Bruce and DCAU Tim about his troubles in school: 

Tim: I know [the American justice system] is bogus.
Bruce: And how did you come to that well-thought-out conclusion?
Tim: (smug face) Watching you. 

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Mongul778

> Dick is at fault for being a TERRIBLE older brother here. He considered Tim his equal? OK. Doesn't change the fact that he was _clearly_ hurting badly, far worse than him, and Dick couldn't see that. Hell, if he DID  see it, then its even worse. Because if that's the case, he was prioritizing his feelings over Tim's, and, as Tim points out, Dick was choosing someone he KNEW he hated, someone who had tried to murder him not long ago in-universe and was actively still mocking him. This isn't a matter of hero and sidekick, this is a matter of big brother little brother, and Dick dropped the ball hard.


Damian was a turd, especially then. But he was also the unstable son of Dick's recently deceased surrogate father. And if nobody took him under his wing, and put him on a better path while there was still time, well to be blunt, there were bigger things at stake than Tim's feelings. And I don't want to sugar coat it, Tim was in a horrible place psychologically, and for some very understandable reasons. Like I said, lesser of 2 evils. But should he have kept him as a sidekick, just so he wouldn't hurt his feelings? In my opinion, no. Also it's not like Dick was tolerating how Damian was treating Tim. He was scolding him for that in those scans.
Anyway the thing reminds of David Tennant's exit from Doctor Who. "I don't wanna go," yuck. I wish they had Tim take it like a man. The way they did it here, didn't exactly put him in a flattering light.




> Also, "the thing was kind of forced on him". Yeah, "forced" is a good word. Dick didn't want the job, Tim wasn't qualified and Jason was still killing people? Well gee, I guess Dick didn't have a choice.


pretty much, yeah.



> It's not like there was another BatFam member for whom none of those things would be a problem, and was stated in canon as being groomed to be Bruce's successor, and the only reason they didn't take the mantle, or Hell, even be INVOLVED in Battle for the Cowl was because editorial hates them, *OH WAIT*.


Not really Grayson's fault though.

----------


## Assam

> Anyway the thing reminds of David Tennant's exit from Doctor Who. "I don't wanna go," yuck. I wish they had Tim take it like a man. The way they did it here, didn't exactly put him in a flattering light.


Don't even compare the two. The last several years of Tim's life (IRL) had been complete Hell, and this was adding on to that. Given the circumstances, he was acting appropriately. Again, besides the awful Tim Wayne part. 

10 was just a whiny coward who was afraid of regenerating for no reason besides Russel T. Davies wanting to stroke his ego. I like Tennant, but 10 is definitely my least favorite Doctor for crap like that. 




> pretty much, yeah.


You read the last part of my post so I'm not sure why you kept this part in once it was 100% clear I was being sarcastic. 




> Not really Grayson's fault though.


No, but it's another example of what I was talking about before: Characters/writers talking saying how amazing he is and how he's the only one for the job for no reason. Plus, it just makes the whole set-up to the story of Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin not make sense.

----------


## FishyZombie

I love these
bulletshield wonder.jpg

----------


## Mongul778

> Don't even compare the two. The last several years of Tim's life (IRL) had been complete Hell, and this was adding on to that. Given the circumstances, he was acting appropriately. Again, besides the awful Tim Wayne part. 
> 
> 10 was just a whiny coward who was afraid of regenerating for no reason besides Russel T. Davies wanting to stroke his ego. I like Tennant, but 10 is definitely my least favorite Doctor for crap like that. 
> 
> 
> 
> You read the last part of my post so I'm not sure why you kept this part in once it was 100% clear I was being sarcastic. 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I agree with sarcastic you, heh. I mean you said it yourself, it wasn't Dick's fault Cass didn't step up, and I don't think she was any more worthy of it than he was. So with all due respect, I'm not seeing your argument. I do agree completely with you about ten however. Really overrated Doctor who went out in a whimper. Which is largely why that scene bothered me. I would have preferred Tim take his termination with some dignity. He didn't have to agree with DickBats, but he could have respected it. Instead he attacked a child and rage left shouting that he was "Tim Wayne." You consider that appropriate? If anything he just gave the little monster what he wanted by sinking to his level (in my experience, that's what bullies always want).

----------


## Alycat

Rereading Red Robin, what was even Tim's proof that Bruce was always alive? He whined about people not believing him but looking back on it he came across as unstable and whiny. I wouldn't have believed him either. Everyone was going through a hard time back then not only Tim. People tried to help and he pushed them away.  Damian was a brat but also a child, so it's honestly hard to get on Tim's side about that situation.

----------


## CPSparkles

Dick was not in the wrong in deciding to look after Bruce's son his brother just because his other much older brother was hurting. THEY were all hurting everyone of them. The only thing Dick was wrong about is believing Tim was his equal as Tim proved straight away.

I hate this scene so much. Tim getting offended by being called by his actual name. Why is that offensive ? Dick doesn't get offended by Grayson, Jason doesn't mind Todd and Alfred doesn't mind Pennyworth.

I don't think Tim would react this way.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. one part I never really understood about R.I.P. and BFTC is how Damian actually ended with Dick and why Talia didn't kept him with her.

I'm not a fan of the "Son of Batman" but the reason why Damian ended up staying with Batman in that story made imo way more sense than what happened in the comics.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Rereading Red Robin, what was even Tim's proof that Bruce was always alive? He whined about people not believing him but looking back on it he came across as unstable and whiny. I wouldn't have believed him either. Everyone was going through a hard time back then not only Tim. People tried to help and he pushed them away.  Damian was a brat but also a child, so it's honestly hard to get on Tim's side about that situation.


He had none. He sounded unstable and whinny because the writer's didn't know how Bruce was coming back.  Tim's quest was dependant on another series and another author Morrison's Return of Bruce Wayne.  It felt like the series writers had to until Morrison clued them in.

And even after he clued them in they went and did something stupid with it. Tim didn't deduce anything they just wrote that he did. 
I wish the Red Robin series had just focused on Tim doing other crime fighting stuff with new villains and  some globe trotting. Leave out the Bruce is alive rubbish which didn't pay off well, leave out the 90210 feel and leave out all the things that were contradicted by the batverse books. Just focus on building Tim up as an independent.

----------


## CPSparkles

> AWWW. I admit, I laughed. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dick is at fault for being a TERRIBLE older brother here. He considered Tim his equal? OK. Doesn't change the fact that he was _clearly_ hurting badly, far worse than him, and Dick couldn't see that. Hell, if he DID  see it, then its even worse. Because if that's the case, he was prioritizing his feelings over Tim's, and, as Tim points out, Dick was choosing someone he KNEW he hated, someone who had tried to murder him not long ago in-universe and was actively still mocking him. This isn't a matter of hero and sidekick, this is a matter of big brother little brother, and Dick dropped the ball hard. 
> 
> Also, "the thing was kind of forced on him". Yeah, "forced" is a good word. Dick didn't want the job, Tim wasn't qualified and Jason was still killing people? Well gee, I guess Dick didn't have a choice. It's not like there was another BatFam member for whom none of those things would be a problem, and was stated in canon as being groomed to be Bruce's successor, and the only reason they didn't take the mantle, or Hell, even be INVOLVED in Battle for the Cowl was because editorial hates them, OH WAIT.


"Choosing someone he hated over him"  Tim was very wrong in looking at it that way and you are as well. Something in life and in this world are bigger than pettiness like that. Bruce is dead they have lost a father there's a deadly young kid fatherless child who needs help but sure let's not help. 

What would a hero do?
There was only one answer  Dick did what Bruce did for him and all the other 'family members'.

To be fair it has a few years since Damian tried murdering Tim and both are guilty of mocking each other

----------


## Aioros22

Dick has been written acting like a bitch sometimes and that is the result of writers reverence of his seniority and believing he can suffer no backlash. I can`t forget the number of times he called Jay inept or unfit to have served the role, going as far as saying the kid had no idea what the hell he was doing, while he was still on the ground. 

Why is that then, despite the appearant reverence found in the last Annual am I not as upset as other fellow Hooders? For one, because Dick apologies exactly in what people are talking about here, _being a shit big brother to him._ 

Two? Because Jay doesn`t lose being the character who will (and has!) punch your bullshit and patronizing square in the face if he has to, no matter if you`re a Dick, an Al`Ghul or a Wayne. Sadly, this seems to be something most writers will give to him (maybe by strenght of having been the original replacement) whereas others aren`t usually given that sort of justified retribution.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick has been written acting like a bitch sometimes and that is the result of writers reverence of his seniority and believing he can suffer no backlash. I can`t forget the number of times he called Jay inept or unfit to have served the role, going as far as saying the kid had no idea what the hell he was doing, while he was still on the ground.


That was really sometimes a little off. You could claim this maybe in the new 52 where jason was really only Robin for a few month but, pre flashpoint he was with Bruce for almost 2 years, had run ins with several A-List batman villains and was even in some bigger events, Tim was defiantly not more experienced when went solo against the Joker in his second mini.

Imo it seems even quiet questionable if Tim's training was as intense as the one Jason and Dick had.

----------


## TheCape

> I can`t forget the number of times he called Jay inept or unfit to have served the role, going as far as saying the kid had no idea what the hell he was doing, while he was still on the ground.


He did that?, i mean i have been reading Tim's months of preparation to be Robin, but i don't remenber any trash talking around that period, i don't even remenber that in the minis (that being said my memories is fuzzy, so is very likely that i'm wrong in this one), i remenber that the trasth talking and victing blaming came around post-zero hour period, by almost everyone (that's actually one of the problem that i have with "The Boys" one shot issue).

----------


## CPSparkles

Damian tried to kill Tim and has been horrid to them all, Dick called Jason inept[allegedly], Tim said it was Dick's fault that Damian died, Jason tried to kill them several times, Tim has claimed Damian isn't fit to wear the R. Point is they have all had their stumbles but Dick steps up when the chips are down.

What he did for Damian and Bruce I would like to see  the others match. I know it doesn't cancel out calling someone inept but it's more than the brothers have ever done. To be honest Dick is the only one who has been a good brother.

All this Dick gets treated like he is special [I don't believe he does] but the reality is He is special. He sells and he made that role.

 @Assam if he's nothing special I wonder why Cass and all the other's hasn't managed what he has huh? And he did is all in rubbish looking underpants.

----------


## TheCape

> All this Dick gets treated like he is special [I don't believe he does] but the reality is He is special. He sells and he made that role.


Bruce definetly treat him in a special way  :Smile: , he is the first son after all and he isn't above of showing favoritims.

Also, i would said that some people in universe has a tendency to project things on Dick, as hope, when that isn't something that drive him in a meaningfull way, determination and compassion are more on Dick's alley than hope.

----------


## Aioros22

> He did that?, i mean i have been reading Tim's months of preparation to be Robin, but i don't remenber any trash talking around that period, i don't even remenber that in the minis (that being said my memories is fuzzy, so is very likely that i'm wrong in this one), i remenber that the trasth talking and victing blaming came around post-zero hour period, by almost everyone (that's actually one of the problem that i have with "The Boys" one shot issue).


Not right after Jason died, no. It was stil way too fresh and they wouldn`t do the mistake of trash talking the dead kid with the backlash they got out of it. But in the subquent years he would say stuff like this: 



"Allegedly" speaking.

You`ll notice this was right after Stepth`s death and he in the same line of reasoning he doesn`t badmouth her for "dying". Writers sometimes are so transperent it`s amusing.

----------


## Aioros22

> @Assam if he's nothing special I wonder why Cass and all the other's hasn't managed what he has huh? And he did is all in rubbish looking underpants.


Puhhleaze. Jason survived the Crisis in underpants and that was like his first job. 

Nobody is saying he isn`t special but what he`s got is boderline hero workship to the point of Superman bending over to the same. Again, nothing upsetting as long the rest of the cast is _allowed_ to call shinnegans when they see it.

----------


## Aioros22

Dick wasn`t the sole culprit, of course but you can read much more in this article about the victimizing of Jason from the editors. basically, together with a small complication of letters and interview briefings about the subject. 

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2821274.html

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Dick wasn`t the sole culprit, of course but you can read much more in this article about the victimizing of Jason from the editors. basically, together with a small complication of letters and interview briefings about the subject. 
> 
> http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2821274.html


I think the author is looking at this through blinders.   He thinks the Red Hood is cool and applying that filter to Jason as Robin.   Jason was not well liked as Robin.   I do sort of agree that it was not necessarily Jason's fault, as Bruce should not have put him out there.

----------


## Aahz

> Not right after Jason died, no. It was stil way too fresh and they wouldn`t do the mistake of trash talking the dead kid with the backlash they got out of it. But in the subquent years he would say stuff like this: 
> 
> 
> 
> "Allegedly" speaking.
> 
> You`ll notice this was right after Stepth`s death and he in the same line of reasoning he doesn`t badmouth her for "dying". Writers sometimes are so transperent it`s amusing.


The thing that is really ridiculous about Dick saying stuff like that is, that a lot modern retroactive stories with Dick as Robin have him being reckless or disobedient and often getting benched or fired for it.

And there are even lines like this.
eb0811e0bc1e5f4bd4a30cb53da03157--blue-impulse-bat-family.jpg

----------


## Alycat

Everyone sees their favorite characters in certain ways. Dick gets a certain treatment and respect from other characters and some writers based on seniority and fondness.  Nothing wrong with that. He gets a lot of bad crap writing too. It doesn't stick out as much because he has enough stories to go through.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think the author is looking at this through blinders.   He thinks the Red Hood is cool and applying that filter to Jason as Robin.   Jason was not well liked as Robin.   I do sort of agree that it was not necessarily Jason's fault, as Bruce should not have put him out there.


That seems quite defensive of you. One, the article isn`t about Red Hood and two, Jason being well liked as Robin or not (Which as interview briefings and quotes help to show is also contradicting on what level he was disliked) got nothing to do with it. Up until his death the lip service from all characters - as written in stories - was that he was worthy of the mantle with Dick giving him his personal say twice. 

What happened later was editors changing the narrative to wash their hands at the backlash they had with the stunt. That is what the article is about, how bipolar dickish Bruce and the older cast sometimes were towards the issue.

If there`s one factual lesson to be found is that the stunt period had little honesty in the matter (O`Neil himself seemingly calls him in a derrogative manner to later switching the blame to readers and claim the phone call was rigged in the already small gap it was). And one should never forget the effect both Tim Burton and Miller had on desiring an actual solo Batman in the main titles, except they forgot that the mainstream books aren`t the movie/AU audiences. 

It`s even appaling how it`s clearly hinted in the same briefs how they purposely changed Jason`s direction and character and up it up to level controversy to sell the stunt. With material like this at disposal, there`s little need to see throught blinders.

----------


## RedBird

> What happened later was editors changing the narrative to wash their hands at the backlash they had with the stunt. That is what the article is about, how bipolar dickish Bruce and the older cast sometimes were towards the issue.


This ^

The unsubtle way in which editors and writers would suddenly paint Jason as reckless, a bad kid, as someone who 'got what was coming to him', in order to shift the narrative blame so they themselves didn't look like heartless monsters for killing a child character in such a public and brutal way was pretty damn pathetic.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> That seems quite defensive of you. One, the article isn`t about Red Hood and two, Jason being well liked as Robin or not (Which as interview briefings and quotes help to show is also contradicting on what level he was disliked) got nothing to do with it. Up until his death the lip service from all characters - as written in stories - was that he was worthy of the mantle with Dick giving him his personal say twice. 
> 
> What happened later was editors changing the narrative to wash their hands at the backlash they had with the stunt. That is what the article is about, how bipolar dickish Bruce and the older cast sometimes were towards the issue.
> 
> If there`s one factual lesson to be found is that the stunt period had little honesty in the matter (O`Neil himself seemingly calls him in a derrogative manner to later switching the blame to readers and claim the phone call was rigged in the already small gap it was). And one should never forget the effect both Tim Burton and Miller had on desiring an actual solo Batman in the main titles, except they forgot that the mainstream books aren`t the movie/AU audiences. 
> 
> It`s even appaling how it`s clearly hinted in the same briefs how they purposely changed Jason`s direction and character and up it up to level controversy to sell the stunt. With material like this at disposal, there`s little need to see throught blinders.


Jason is the Red Hood, and he was Robin, and the author obviously cares about him.   I don't think if Jason was still dead, this essay would even exist.

When I say Jason was unpopular, I mean with the readers, not the characters.   The article says the readers did not like Jason, and the writers played upon that by upping how bratty he was.  Could they have used a different method to get rid of Jason?   Sure, he could have quit and rode off into the sunset or been stuffed into a fridge.   However, the job of the writers is to sell comics, and Jason's death did just that, and it became a big part of Batman's story and his relationship with the Joker.   They need to have a reason, in the comics, for Jason's demise.   You can't very well say fans chose it.   Having Jason's issues be the fault once again adds to Batman's character as he should have not had Jason out there.

----------


## Assam

> Having Jason's issues be the fault once again adds to Batman's character as he should have not had Jason out there.


While I do agree that having a dead BatFam member long term added something to the mythos, it wasn't actually either Jason OR Bruce's fault he died. Aside from the obvious one at fault (Joker), blame falls on Jason's bitch of a mom (Thus starting the trend of Bruce's kids dying because of their moms. Seriously, 3/5, and the two who haven't been killed by their moms have dead moms.) 

And as people here have already pointed out, the extent to which Jason was disliked by the fanbase is greatly exaggerated.

----------


## Aahz

> While I do agree that having a dead BatFam member long term added something to the mythos,


Not really imo. If they hadn't brought him back, it would have been now, after almost every Batfamily member was dead (or at least thought to be dead) at some point kind of meaning less.

And for new fans, who started reading long after it was originally published (or were not even born back than) it would have even had less of a meaning.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I love these
> Attachment 54566


Lol, that one is funny as well

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason is the Red Hood, and he was Robin, and the author obviously cares about him.   I don't think if Jason was still dead, this essay would even exist.


Despite him being dead, he kept making references and appearances in comics and being used as Robin in TAS and you still had fanfics of him around, including a set of stories that were favorites of mine where he survived, whore an eyepatch and went by the new name of "Draco". Still one of the best I`ve read. 

Anyhow, that claim is not here or there when it`s not his stint as Red Hood that is being explored. 




> Jason When I say Jason was unpopular, I mean with the readers, not the characters.


And that`s where the bipolarity comes from. It merits his actions in previous runs and how assassine some character voices sound at being utter dicks. 

Yeah writers took the chance and he suceeded the golden boy, not Tim or Damian but one of the main points is how there was a decree connecting to a certain Batman that was popular elsewhere and how justifiable is it in the _way_ they handled it afterwards. That`s the question. 




> Jason The article says the readers did not like Jason, and the writers played upon that by upping how bratty he was.


And how much were those numbers? How reliable it is taking also in consideration that they wanted to get rid of Robin altogether. Starlin didn`t care for the concept, he wanted a Batman solo. He directly said in an interview back when that he believed Robin to be outdated, flat out stupid which pretty much made Batman look like an imbecile. 

That`s what the editors say and since they have the say, we gota nod, right? Well, Jason`s Thread got some box letters from comics where the like/dislike is generally divisive up until the story where him and Dick meet in Gotham and then the "Diplomath`s Son". This seems congruent with the decree and the direction they took the character in. 




> Jason Could they have used a different method to get rid of Jason?   Sure, he could have quit and rode off into the sunset or been stuffed into a fridge.   However, the job of the writers is to sell comics, and Jason's death did just that, and it became a big part of Batman's story and his relationship with the Joker.   They need to have a reason, in the comics, for Jason's demise.   You can't very well say fans chose it.   Having Jason's issues be the fault once again adds to Batman's character as he should have not had Jason out there.


The issue is not selling comics. The issue is victim shaming coming out from DC shooting their own foot.  

That last line is _hilarious_ given the subject at hand.

----------


## Aioros22

> While I do agree that having a dead BatFam member long term added something to the mythos, it wasn't actually either Jason OR Bruce's fault he died. Aside from the obvious one at fault (Joker), blame falls on Jason's bitch of a mom (Thus starting the trend of Bruce's kids dying because of their moms. Seriously, 3/5, and the two who haven't been killed by their moms have dead moms.) 
> 
> And as people here have already pointed out, the extent to which Jason was disliked by the fanbase is greatly exaggerated.


I have no doubt he had haters. The Dick should be Robin shippers exist even today but I just shrugg at some things O`Neil has said, since - and the article points it out, they haven`t bee exactly congruent between actions and words over the years he`s talked about it. He went from the polar South of he`s fvcking hated by fans you all kiilled him, _not us_, we liked him! to the polar North of blaming one guy about the poll results which already had a small gap to begin with (72 calls of difference or whatever). He went from, well we tried to make him applealing, we swear! to know about the decree with the Stunt in mind to clear Robin off the books. Must be true, since as the backlash set off, Starlin was out of the door faster than Speedy Gonzales and up we go fetch another one...oOps. 

Bloody bipolar Office.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Aioros22

Just to wrap it up, it`s a recent interview of Starlin`s (it mentions the Thanos cameo in Avengers)..

http://www.sparknotes.com/mindhut/20...created-thanos

MH: So for a lot of people, youll always be the guy who killed Robin

JS: That got me a lot of free beers in Mexico at the time

MH: *Ha ha, thats funny*! Can you talk a little about how you got put in the position of writing that, of writing A Death in the Family?

JS: Well I always sort of felt that going out and fighting crime with a teenager that you dress in primary colors while youre in the shadows wearing black and grey, well, that could only be termed child endangerment. *So I was never big on using Robin*. And when [my editor] Benny [O'Neil] came up with the phone-in *gag* about voting whether he lived or died, and they said, *Well, lets do Robin (because I had been pushing for it)* it just sort of fell into place. And it worked out well. I never suspected,* I never figured that the readers were going to want him to live, because I know what kind of ghouls you fans are*, *so we did the thing and it turned out they had all these pajamas and lunchboxes with Robins pictures on it, so within a couple months I was out of DC because I screwed up their merchandising department.

*MH: Even though the fans were behind it, DC still wanted you out the door?

JS: Oh yeah, I was suddenly persona non grata. Up until that point, the editor Benny ONeil had been taking credit for the whole thing. As soon as it went south, it was all my fault so I was gone.

MH: The ending, how he was killed, that came from the fans, right?

JS: Well, they decided whether he lived or died. I had two different last pagesI mean, he got beat up and blown up by The Joker, and whether he lived or died depended on what the fans. And it was only like 72 votes difference out of ten thousand; statistically *next to nothing*.
_
Speedy Gonzales, please come home
Oh don`t leave me all alone!
La lalalalaaaaaaa_

----------


## J. D. Guy

> 


I really do miss this costume of Tim's.  :Frown:

----------


## Alycat

> I really do miss this costume of Tim's.


Wow that's a first! I thought most people hated this one.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I hate this scene so much. *Tim getting offended by being called by his actual name. Why is that offensive ? Dick doesn't get offended by Grayson, Jason doesn't mind Todd and Alfred doesn't mind Pennyworth.*
> 
> I don't think Tim would react this way.


With regards to the bold, specifically, even just based on the content of those two pages, that train of thought is reductive.

It's not about Tim "being mad for being called by his "real" name." That's not even the point. That's not even on the radar of points. It's about the fact that he was constantly getting insulted and belittled by Damian and, regardless of other circumstances, felt that his issues with it all were being downplayed, ignored, or exacerbated. From day one, Damian challenged Tim's very existence in their world, and so in that moment of risen tension, Tim had to remind Damian who he was. That he _was_ taken in and accepted by Bruce. That he was _Robin_. That he was _a Wayne_ (this took place after Bruce adopted Tim, if I recall correctly), just as much as Damian was. An adopted Wayne not making him any less so a Wayne.

Tim arguing to Dick about his choice in partners is done due to the same root of the issue.

On another note (referring to someone else's post now), sure, Dick scolded Damian and tried to get him to stop, but it didn't actually _stop_ Damian, and Tim was still hurt in the end.

Quite frankly, that scene made perfect sense for Tim to act that way. It would have been strange if Tim was blase about it, and perhaps a little unhealthy to be bottling up emotions like that.

----------


## Frontier

> With regards to the bold, specifically, even just based on the content of those two pages, that train of thought is reductive.
> 
> It's not about Tim "being mad for being called by his "real" name." That's not even the point. That's not even on the radar of points. It's about the fact that he was constantly getting insulted and belittled by Damian and, regardless of other circumstances, felt that his issues with it all were being downplayed, ignored, or exacerbated. From day one, Damian challenged Tim's very existence in their world, and so in that moment of risen tension, Tim had to remind Damian who he was. That he _was_ taken in and accepted by Bruce. That he was _Robin_. That he was _a Wayne_ (this took place after Bruce adopted Tim, if I recall correctly), just as much as Damian was. An adopted Wayne not making him any less so a Wayne.
> 
> Tim arguing to Dick about his choice in partners is done due to the same root of the issue.
> 
> On another note (referring to someone else's post now), sure, Dick scolded Damian and tried to get him to stop, but it didn't actually _stop_ Damian, and Tim was still hurt in the end.
> 
> Quite frankly, that scene made perfect sense for Tim to act that way. It would have been strange if Tim was blase about it, and perhaps a little unhealthy to be bottling up emotions like that.


This is basically my reading of it as well. 

He was only relatively recently adopted by Bruce after already losing his biological father and Damian had been constantly demeaning him, his status as Robin, and how important he was to Bruce and while still reeling from the death of his surrogate father Tim fought back with the fact that he was as much of a Wayne as Damian is, if not by blood.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> This is basically my reading of it as well. 
> 
> He was only relatively recently adopted by Bruce after already losing his biological father and Damian had been constantly demeaning him, his status as Robin, and how important he was to Bruce and while still reeling from the death of his surrogate father Tim fought back with the fact that he was as much of a Wayne as Damian is, if not by blood.


I wasn't sure of the time perspective of Tim having been adopted, but if it was indeed relatively recent in-universe, that makes what Damian did all the more tragic from Tim's point of view, and in turn makes his reactions at that point in the pages all the more appropriate.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> Wow that's a first! I thought most people hated this one.


A lot do, usually, from I what I can pick up on, due to the perceived stigma of it.

That said, I do like it, and feel it's his best costume, especially as Red Robin. When he switched to the costume he wears in Detective Comics, I was disappointed in it. Same when I read the part where Steph took a bit of a jab at Tim not wearing that costume anymore. It was supposed to be a meta joke for the people who had a problem with it, but since I actually _liked_ that Red Robin costume and since I felt that his Rebirth version was/is generic and cookie-cutter by comparison, I didn't appreciate the "in-joke" quite so much.

I don't dislike his current wear, but I do find it run-of-the-mill compared to the more iconic (to Tim as Red Robin) New 52 version, and am saddened to have lost it in turn. The predominately red color on black, with yellow highlights in Tim's utility belts, just look so aesthetically awesome to me that his Rebirth costume feels like a step down. I'd prefer more Red in the _Red_ Robin costume, but it's too busy harking back to the Robin portion with all that green and extra yellow.

That said, I have seen others who have said they like or even prefer the New 52 look, so I'm not the only one. It's just an opinion that's not seen as often as the vocal ones who don't.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't dislike his current wear, but I do find it run-of-the-mill compared to the more iconic (to Tim as Red Robin) New 52 version, and am saddened to have lost it in turn. The predominately red color on black, with yellow highlights in Tim's utility belts, just look so aesthetically awesome to me that his Rebirth costume feels like a step down. I'd prefer more Red in the _Red_ Robin costume, but it's too busy harking back to the Robin portion with all that green and extra yellow.


I'd say the original Red Robin costume is more iconic towards Tim as Red Robin then the New 52 version, which generally seems a tad more infamous by comparison. 

I've always personally been pretty fond of Tim's One Year Later Robin suit.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I'd say the original Red Robin costume is more iconic towards Tim as Red Robin then the New 52 version, which generally seems a tad more infamous by comparison. 
> 
> I've always personally been pretty fond of Tim's One Year Later Robin suit.


From an aesthetics point, I disliked how the hood and cowl made Tim look. It wasn't very flattering compared to Batman's hood and cowl, that is, it made Tim's head look weird. The artists practiced the thing where people who wear masks that cover the head completely or close to magically become bald while wearing them. It's an aesthetic that made Tim look too old, and, as I said, looked unflattering on him.

I appreciated the comparative youthfulness in the New 52 version/revamp of the Red Robin costume, and I like the Wings versus the Cape, too.

----------


## KrustyKid

> From an aesthetics point, I disliked how the hood and cowl made Tim look. It wasn't very flattering compared to Batman's hood and cowl, that is, it made Tim's head look weird. The artists practiced the thing where people who wear masks that cover the head completely or close to magically become bald while wearing them. It's an aesthetic that made Tim look too old, and, as I said, looked unflattering on him.
> 
> I appreciated the comparative youthfulness in the New 52 version/revamp of the Red Robin costume, and I like the Wings versus the Cape, too.


It varied between artist. I think Marcus TO did a good job showing his youth

----------


## RedBird

> It varied between artist. I think Marcus TO did a good job showing his youth


I think he was the only artist to make the ear less cowl look okay, I think I would have liked the pre52 RR outfit much more if he had had a mask rather than a cowl. 

Otherwise, I agree with J.D. Guy, the new52 outfit made Tim look much more his age, plus I kinda did like the 'feathers' on it, it was at least unique and made him stand out on page, not to mention that the 'feathers' were actually equipped and teched up for other uses besides flight. I know people understandably despise new52 Tim, but in terms of design, at least the new52 outfit made an effort in keeping in line with Tims character as a 'tech wiz'. Any well designed character should inform the audience of their abilities and personality through aesthetic means such as costume/clothing. By comparison, the rebirth outfit is such a disappointment to see, when putting him side by side with Damian, it makes the 'I can't seem to move past not being Robin' issues stand out like a sore thumb.

----------


## scary harpy

> I think he was the only artist to make the ear less cowl look okay, I think I would have liked the pre52 RR outfit much more if he had had a mask rather than a cowl. 
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with J.D. Guy, the new52 outfit made Tim look much more his age, plus I kinda did like the 'feathers' on it, it was at least unique and made him stand out on page, not to mention that the 'feathers' were actually equipped and teched up for other uses besides flight. I know people understandably despise new52 Tim, but in terms of design, at least the new52 outfit made an effort in keeping in line with Tims character as a 'tech wiz'. Any well designed character should inform the audience of their abilities and personality through aesthetic means such as costume/clothing. By comparison, the rebirth outfit is such a disappointment to see, when putting him side by side with Damian, it makes the 'I can't seem to move past not being Robin' issues stand out like a sore thumb.


Thank you for posting!

I sometimes feel like I am the only one who thought this.

----------


## scary harpy

> A lot do, usually, from I what I can pick up on, due to the perceived stigma of it.
> 
> That said, I do like it, and feel it's his best costume, especially as Red Robin. When he switched to the costume he wears in Detective Comics, I was disappointed in it. Same when I read the part where Steph took a bit of a jab at Tim not wearing that costume anymore. It was supposed to be a meta joke for the people who had a problem with it, but since I actually _liked_ that Red Robin costume and since I felt that his Rebirth version was/is generic and cookie-cutter by comparison, I didn't appreciate the "in-joke" quite so much.
> 
> I don't dislike his current wear, but I do find it run-of-the-mill compared to the more iconic (to Tim as Red Robin) New 52 version, and am saddened to have lost it in turn. The predominately red color on black, with yellow highlights in Tim's utility belts, just look so aesthetically awesome to me that his Rebirth costume feels like a step down. I'd prefer more Red in the _Red_ Robin costume, but it's too busy harking back to the Robin portion with all that green and extra yellow.
> 
> That said, I have seen others who have said they like or even prefer the New 52 look, so I'm not the only one. It's just an opinion that's not seen as often as the vocal ones who don't.


_Red Robin_ was an identity Dick Grayson took in _Kingdom Come_...and that's where it should have stayed.

Tim's original _Red Robin_ costume had him looking like Dr. Mid-nite but without the visual appeal.

Tim's current _Red Robin_ costume looks like a Robin costume with 2 Rs and almost no red. I don't understand it's appeal...visual or otherwise.

----------


## Assam

I swear, the ideas I hear for what to do with Tim just keep getting sillier.

Dr. Midnight, Owlman and Grey Ghost have all been pitched here, and now, over on 4Chan, someone pitched that Tim become the new Crimson Avenger, and take inspiration from the Green Hornet in how he operates, complete with Cass working as a Kato equivalent. 

Wouldn't mind this at all as a fanfic, but seriously, all of the lols.

----------


## RedBird

> I swear, the ideas I hear for what to do with Tim just keep getting sillier.
> 
> Dr. Midnight, Owlman and Grey Ghost have all been pitched here, and now, over on 4Chan, someone pitched that Tim become the new Crimson Avenger, and take inspiration from the Green Hornet in how he operates, complete with Cass working as a Kato equivalent. 
> 
> Wouldn't mind this at all as a fanfic, but seriously, all of the lols.


Crimson Avenger sounds so cheesy and its a bit of a mouthful to say. Plus if those are the only options I much rather he stick with Red Robin, it works just fine, and Tim has been in the role long enough to where his name feels much more associated with it, despite at least two other robins using the title/costume prior.

----------


## Aioros22

> I swear, the ideas I hear for what to do with Tim just keep getting sillier.
> 
> Dr. Midnight, Owlman and Grey Ghost have all been pitched here, and now, over on 4Chan, someone pitched that Tim become the new Crimson Avenger, and take inspiration from the Green Hornet in how he operates, complete with Cass working as a Kato equivalent. 
> 
> Wouldn't mind this at all as a fanfic, but seriously, all of the lols.


Cass as Kato is way too on the nose but she`s certainly the only one able to bring that level of Kato badasseness. That said there`s already a Green Hornet type of operation in the franchise. That`s Red Hood`s deal in the Underworld.

----------


## Frontier

> I think he was the only artist to make the ear less cowl look okay, I think I would have liked the pre52 RR outfit much more if he had had a mask rather than a cowl. 
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with J.D. Guy, the new52 outfit made Tim look much more his age, plus I kinda did like the 'feathers' on it, it was at least unique and made him stand out on page, not to mention that the 'feathers' were actually equipped and teched up for other uses besides flight. I know people understandably despise new52 Tim, but in terms of design, at least the new52 outfit made an effort in keeping in line with Tims character as a 'tech wiz'. Any well designed character should inform the audience of their abilities and personality through aesthetic means such as costume/clothing. By comparison, the rebirth outfit is such a disappointment to see, when putting him side by side with Damian, it makes the 'I can't seem to move past not being Robin' issues stand out like a sore thumb.


The wings could make him look so goofy sometimes though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aioros22

FYI of course, the Green Hornet is balls awesome and no one should just copy it but that`s the vibe. 

Tim is like the one character with a list of identities that nobody agrees with. I keep being amazed by the growing names. Grey Ghost, really? How does that fit, Tim is not a Shadow/Phantom-esque character. Too big shoes to fit, kiddo.

----------


## twincast

> I've always personally been pretty fond of Tim's One Year Later Robin suit.


And I wholeheartedly despise that bland eyesore.




> _Red Robin_ was an identity Dick Grayson took in _Kingdom Come_...and that's where it should have stayed.


QFT




> Tim's original _Red Robin_ costume had him looking like Dr. Mid-nite but without the visual appeal.


True, but the slight alterations it got toward the end made it much better.




> Tim's current _Red Robin_ costume looks like a Robin costume with 2 Rs and almost no red. I don't understand it's appeal...visual or otherwise.


And what exactly is wrong with that? "Red Robin" is a moronic tautology. The birds' original - and until an era in which it was common to give animals (species/males/females) human nicknames only - English name is redbreast, which is of the same semantic construction as its names in other European languages, and that is exactly how the birds look. They have red(dish) breasts. None of them are even remotely overwhelmingly red. And as long as he isn't clearly moving on from being a Robin in name, I don't see why he should go for a different (and thus far always lesser) look.

----------


## Alycat

He should be, that one guy who goes to college. I'm serious.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I'm fond of him becoming the next Question but him becoming the next Crimson Avenger/Grey Ghost sounds cool. Dr.Midnight would make more sense if he was in med school or was training to be a doctor. 

A different poster talked about tim studying under detective chimp as a plainclothes detective and I am fond of that idea.

----------


## Assam

> That said there`s already a Green Hornet type of operation in the franchise. That`s Red Hood`s deal in the Underworld.


I do look forward to seeing that angle worked more, since the book hasn't done much with that concept so far. 




> FYI of course, the Green Hornet is balls awesome and no one should just copy it but that`s the vibe.


Yeah, Green Hornet rocks. Can't say I've ever met someone who actively dislikes the franchise. 

Tim is like the one character with a list of identities that nobody agrees with. I keep being amazed by the growing names.[/QUOTE]

It's interesting to think where Tim would be now if Damian hadn't come about. Would he still be Robin? Would he and Jason  have even survived the Reboot or would they have been tossed out with Cass and Steph in favor of bringing Dick back to Robin? Would Snyder have replaced by now with Harper or Duke and given him an original identity that isn't the one that I like but many others mock? 




> And I wholeheartedly despise that bland eyesore.


I'm with you. Can't stand the OYL suit. 



> True, but the slight alterations it got toward the end made it much better.


Besides his original Robin suit, the original Red Robin suit is my favorite costume for Tim. I'm in the boat that hates the Swan Queen look. The Rebirth look is really just meh. 




> He should be, that one guy who goes to college. I'm serious.


This gets brought up a lot on this thread (and others) and I still support the idea. Either as a setting for a character and mystery focused book with the 90's Bats, or just for Tim to finally catch a damn break. I've pointed this out before, but while Tim's certainly done good for his friends, family and the world, he's also the only one of the 5 kids whose life would probably be a lot happier if he'd never met Bruce. 




> I'm fond of him becoming the next Question


Oh yeah, that's also gotten brought up.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Really though, with Vic nowhere to be seen and Renee stuck making occasional cameos as a cop in 'Tec, I don't think it'd last too long if it did happen. 

And regarding the Crimson Avenger, I'm personally in favor of bringing back Jill Carlyle. 




> A different poster talked about tim studying under detective chimp as a plainclothes detective and I am fond of that idea.


An idea I had for after the current 'Tec team eventually runs its course would be for a new team to take over the book. A team of the world's greatest detectives. Batman, Ralph and Sue Dibney, Detective Chimp, Renee Montoya as The Question (an obviously altered version of her story in Gotham Central and 52 being retconned back into continuity) and the one they see potential in, Tim. If he's alive when the JSA return, maybe also have Wesley Dodds as an additional mentor to all of them.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm fond of him becoming the next Question but him becoming the next Crimson Avenger/Grey Ghost sounds cool. Dr.Midnight would make more sense if he was in med school or was training to be a doctor. 
> 
> A different poster talked about tim studying under detective chimp as a plainclothes detective and I am fond of that idea.


Don't know if some one like Tim, who is famous for computer skills would be the right choise, for something that probly more crime noir story.

----------


## Aahz

> I know people understandably despise new52 Tim, but in terms of design, at least the new52 outfit made an effort in keeping in line with Tims character as a 'tech wiz'. Any well designed character should inform the audience of their abilities and personality through aesthetic means such as costume/clothing.


I would have actually liked if they had made the effort with the new 52, when they redesigned the Robin costumes, to make some kind of logical evolution of the design and to make each costume kind of fit to the respective Robin.

----------


## Frontier

I liked the red and black of the OYL costume. It seemed fitting for Tim at that point in his career and as he evolved as Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

The thing with the Question is, I already had a hard time accepting Renne, let alone Tim. Being the Question is different than being Batman, it`s a more personal identity fueled by a simbolism of always targetting the truth that is out there "because people should know". Crime Noir, and urban shamanism are key themes to the character. 

Nah, wouldn`t work. Vic Sage is the Question and Renee at the very least was taught and chosen by him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah, Green Hornet rocks. Can't say I've ever met someone who actively dislikes the franchise.


Hornet, kato, Black Beauty and Casey and all those cool effective gadgets  :Cool: 

Not surprised the least.

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is an interesting map. I didn't know the GCPD and the Wayne Tower were so far from Wayne Manor. And wow, I didn't even realize that Brentwood Academy was so close to the Drake household, which is weird, because I knew they lived in the Brentwood area.  :Big Grin:

----------


## scary harpy

What is this? Are we still discussing new names for Tim? Why? Mr. Oz settled that question.




> Whoever Oz is, he explained that he grabbed Tim Drank out of the the DCU because he was "reconnecting threads that could not be reconnected. *You're so loved, so deeply intertwined, it became crucial that we take you off the field.* And that's where you are, Tim. Off the field."


There you have it. Even his colors match the concept: Tim is...the Lovebird.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

lovebird? that's sound like an innuendo.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Don't know if some one like Tim, who is famous for computer skills would be the right choise, for something that probly more crime noir story.


 Eh. Yes, Tim has computer skills; but they're over-emphasized IMHO. Crime noir type stuff is what he's a natural at. It's sort of like Black Canary and her Canary Cry: sure, she has it; but it tends to take back-seat to the fact that she's a bad-ass martial artist.

----------


## Alycat

> What is this? Are we still discussing new names for Tim? Why? Mr. Oz settled that question.
> 
> 
> 
> There you have it. Even his colors match the concept: Tim is...the Lovebird.


I don't know what stories Oz was reading since that clearly isn't true. Bizzaro Tim or Reverse Tim it is then.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I swear, the ideas I hear for what to do with Tim just keep getting sillier.
> 
> Dr. Midnight, Owlman and Grey Ghost have all been pitched here, and now, over on 4Chan, someone pitched that Tim become the new Crimson Avenger, and take inspiration from the Green Hornet in how he operates, complete with Cass working as a Kato equivalent. 
> 
> Wouldn't mind this at all as a fanfic, but seriously, all of the lols.


 I've always seen the next step in Tim's development as being the next Oracle (though with a different codename), complete with the Neon Knights as a rough analog of the Birds of Prey: basically, that big speech he gave to Bruce about getting everyone organized and going beyond crimefighting activities. The time that he mentioned to Dick that he viewed “Robin” as a temporary thing always struck me not as an indication of insufficient resolve, but rather of wanting to find a way to go beyond what a “mere” crimefighter can accomplish.

----------


## TheCape

I had to agreed with Dataweaver, Tim got sadled wiht the whole hacker thing, for being the first Robin that showed attitude on that, but reading his minis and solo, he doesn't really use then that much, you see him doing more typical detective work. Even before the reboot he was more of a tactician master, that a tech wizard.

----------


## godisawesome

The most frustrating thing about making Tim the hacker guy was that scene at the start of B&R:E. The one where Dick and Jason have chased this badguy up a roof, and then Tim stands there and explains how he's hacked the guy's guns. Mostly because the old Tim would have had a more succinct answer: hit 'em with a stick.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> *I think he was the only artist to make the ear less cowl look okay, I think I would have liked the pre52 RR outfit much more if he had had a mask rather than a cowl.* 
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with J.D. Guy, the new52 outfit made Tim look much more his age, plus I kinda did like the 'feathers' on it, it was at least unique and made him stand out on page, not to mention that the 'feathers' were actually equipped and teched up for other uses besides flight. I know people understandably despise new52 Tim, but in terms of design, at least the new52 outfit made an effort in keeping in line with Tims character as a 'tech wiz'. Any well designed character should inform the audience of their abilities and personality through aesthetic means such as costume/clothing. By comparison, the rebirth outfit is such a disappointment to see, when putting him side by side with Damian, it makes the 'I can't seem to move past not being Robin' issues stand out like a sore thumb.


With the bold, I kinda have to imagine what it would look like, but thinking on it, I agree. Even with the Cape, I'd have preferred the first Red Robin costume with a domino mask as opposed to the hood/cowl.

With the underlined, that's one of the biggest catalysts for my disappointment. His current outfit makes Tim look too similar to Damian in-costume. That, it really doesn't have enough _red_ for me.




> Thank you for posting!
> 
> I sometimes feel like I am the only one who thought this.


Nope. Definitely not.  :Smile: 




> _Red Robin_ was an identity Dick Grayson took in _Kingdom Come_...and that's where it should have stayed.
> 
> Tim's original _Red Robin_ costume had him looking like Dr. Mid-nite but without the visual appeal.
> 
> Tim's current _Red Robin_ costume looks like a Robin costume with 2 Rs and almost no red. I don't understand it's appeal...visual or otherwise.


Tim having the name Red Robin in the mainline universe is fine by me, really.

Otherwise, I agree with what you said here. In particular, I thought the same thing about the 2 'RR's looking like a misspelling with so much green.

----------


## Alycat

> The most frustrating thing about making Tim the hacker guy was that scene at the start of B&R:E. The one where Dick and Jason have chased this badguy up a roof, and then Tim stands there and explains how he's hacked the guy's guns. Mostly because the old Tim would have had a more succinct answer: hit 'em with a stick.


lmao I remember that. Then Dick and Jason punch him out anyway. Which looked cool, but it shows they could've skipped the hacked guns to begin with. Like they only put it there so Tim could do something.

----------


## TheCape

I had been reading the Brentwood accademy issues and man Tim has the worst luck when it comes to roomates, the fact than an alcholic teenager was the most normal, say a lot about his life  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

> With the bold, I kinda have to imagine what it would look like, but thinking on it, I agree. Even with the Cape, I'd have preferred the first Red Robin costume with a domino mask as opposed to the hood/cowl.
> 
> With the underlined, that's one of the biggest catalysts for my disappointment. His current outfit makes Tim look too similar to Damian in-costume. That, it really doesn't have enough _red_ for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Definitely not. 
> 
> 
> ...


Personally, I still prefer the cowl for a promotion _to_ Red Robin; I like the idea that you should be able to identify what Robin you're looking out with only the barest glance, and I like the way it emphasizes that Tim's protecting his noggin more than Damian and Dick. To me, the domino mask on a promoted Tim feels like it doesn't separate him from the previous identity enough.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I had been reading the Brentwood accademy issues and man Tim has the worst luck when it comes to roomates, the fact than an alcholic teenager was the most normal, say a lot about his life



True, but I still liked Ali Ben Khadir. He was a sweet kid. Wesley on the other hand.....

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

Gotta love those glasses, lol

----------


## phonogram12

> I had to agreed with Dataweaver, Tim got sadled wiht the whole hacker thing, for being the first Robin that showed attitude on that, but reading his minis and solo, he doesn't really use then that much, you see him doing more typical detective work. Even before the reboot he was more of a tactician master, that a tech wizard.





> The most frustrating thing about making Tim the hacker guy was that scene at the start of B&R:E. The one where Dick and Jason have chased this badguy up a roof, and then Tim stands there and explains how he's hacked the guy's guns. Mostly because the old Tim would have had a more succinct answer: hit 'em with a stick.


I agree with both of these. I mean, not only did Bruce once say that Tim would likely surpass his detective skills one day, Lady Shiva also said that once Tim reached the right age she would formally challenge him to a duel, and back then she only ever did this when she was convinced her opponent would serve as a good match for her.

Tim's way too good to just be stuck behind a monitor.

----------


## Aahz

> I agree with both of these. I mean, not only did Bruce once say that Tim would likely surpass his detective skills one day, Lady Shiva also said that once Tim reached the right age she would formally challenge him to a duel, and back then she only ever did this when she was convinced her opponent would serve as a good match for her.
> 
> Tim's way too good to just be stuck behind a monitor.


He is a good detective, but I still think that "The Question" (which was usually quite dark and gritty) isn't really the right genre for him.

----------


## Assam

> Tim's way too good to just be stuck behind a monitor.


While I don't think Tim should become Diet-Oracle either, the fact that Oracle HAS such a die-hard fanbase shows that there's nothing inherently wrong with being "stuck behind a monitor"

----------


## Caivu

First panel of "A Lonely Place of Living":

IMG_20170913_164536.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

YES!!

----------


## shadowsgirl

You gotta love stalker Tim. He is such a creep.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

....


(Breathes excitedly into paper bag)


Does...


(Breathes into bag again)


Does this mean what I think it does? The return of the Pre-Flashpoint origin, or at least some parts of it?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> ....
> 
> 
> (Breathes excitedly into paper bag)
> 
> 
> Does...
> 
> 
> ...


From Tynion's twitter:
For those of you asking, "Wait, does that mean _______?!?!" 
The answer is yes.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim's first Father's Day with Bruce.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## failo.legendkiller

Finally a good news, anyhow I'm still cautious on this "A Lonely place of living"

----------


## Assam

While this is very, VERY good news, I'm still not terribly excited about Lonely Place of Living. Evil Tim Batman and Doomsday can't really compete with Kon and Bart like I know a lot of us had been hoping for since Tim was first imprisoned, or even just the normal 'Tec team. 

Also, while I do hope for it overall, there IS an  extra-bitter side of me that doesn't want Tim having been a Robin back. I try to shut that side me up.

----------


## Frontier

> First panel of "A Lonely Place of Living":
> 
> IMG_20170913_164536.jpg


I wonder if this is Dick holding the pictures if they're keeping the chronology of Tim's origin correct or if he goes straight to Bruce this time...

----------


## scary harpy

> 


I do not like Tim's costume here.

----------


## scary harpy

> ....
> 
> 
> (Breathes excitedly into paper bag)
> 
> 
> Does...
> 
> 
> ...





> From Tynion's twitter:
> For those of you asking, "Wait, does that mean _______?!?!" 
> The answer is yes.





> Finally a good news, anyhow I'm still cautious on this "A Lonely place of living"





> While this is very, VERY good news, I'm still not terribly excited about Lonely Place of Living. Evil Tim Batman and Doomsday can't really compete with Kon and Bart like I know a lot of us had been hoping for since Tim was first imprisoned, or even just the normal 'Tec team. 
> 
> Also, while I do hope for it overall, there IS an  extra-bitter side of me that doesn't want Tim having been a Robin back. I try to shut that side me up.


It's not bad news. 

On the other hand, I like Tim being a gymnast as well as really smart and with an aptitude for electronics and computers.

I hope we don't lose everything to run backwards.
_
A Lonely Place of Living_ may not be the best but, at least, we are getting Tim back.

----------


## Assam

> and with an aptitude for electronics and computers.


And that's as far as I want that to go. Tim should be computer savvy, potentially a little more so than he was back in Robin days. But his primary skill should return to being a detective (You know, a way to show a character is actually smart as opposed to just going "I am so smart, look at how smart I am") and his tech savvy should have a limit, and he shouldn't be building SELF-HEALING BUILDINGS!! And no, I will NEVER get over that.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I do not like Tim's costume here.


It's his OYL costume. What's wrong with it?

----------


## scary harpy

> It's his OYL costume. What's wrong with it?


I hate the trunks. I'm not fond of the colors...too much black. Just my opinion.

----------


## Assam

> I hate the trunks. I'm not fond of the colors...too much black. Just my opinion.


I find it rather ugly and appealing as well.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> It's his OYL costume. What's wrong with it?


Still the best:

----------


## KrustyKid

Nice to know Tim will have his origin reworked to fit closer to his original. I suspected this much, so no big surprise. I wonder if Dick will play a role in it, hoping so.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Still the best:


And I still don't like it. I love Tim, but hate his green costume. Green is such an ugly colour.  :Big Grin:  I would never wear green. Black and red all day!  :Big Grin:

----------


## scary harpy

> Still the best:


I disagree.

I like Norm Breyfogle's designs better than Neal Adams rendition. Just my opinion.

----------


## Alycat

> Nice to know Tim will have his origin reworked to fit closer to his original. I suspected this much, so no big surprise. I wonder if Dick will play a role in it, hoping so.


If not then it is already a fail. I'm tired of Steph and Bruce being our only Tim relationships.

----------


## Aioros22

The red and black is wonderful. But it`s not really Tim  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

" He seemed happier with Dick (...) I want him to be the Batman I remember " Et tu Tim?

I almost forgot the reason I didn`t care for ALNOD back then aside Aparo`s art and Perez wonderful set of covers. A kick in the groin like this when the grave was still warm from the oh, not so subtle TPTB.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> The red and black is wonderful. But it`s not really Tim


He is wearing it since 2006 and his name is Red Robin. He needs to stay away from the green.  :Big Grin:  Heck, there is a reason I cheer for the Red Lanterns.  :Big Grin:  Of course Tim was wearing green for a long time, but I always disliked it. It's so satisfying when your favourite character wear your favourite colours.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> It's so satisfying when your favourite character wear your favourite colours.


huh. Never thought about it but my favorite DC hero wears my favorite color, and my favorite DC villain wears my second favorite.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> huh. Never thought about it but my favorite DC hero wears my favorite color, and my favorite DC villain wears my second favorite.


Cass's Batgirl costume was perfect. I'm in love with that costume. I love Steph's costume too, but for different reasons. Steph's costume was really pretty and sexy, while Cass's costume was the most badass costume I have ever seen.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> If not then it is already a fail. I'm tired of Steph and Bruce being our only Tim relationships.


I agree completely.

----------


## Assam

> I agree completely.


BROTP.jpg

BatFam BROTP. Great as he is, Basil has not managed to change this.

----------


## Aioros22

> He is wearing it since 2006 and his name is Red Robin. He needs to stay away from the green.  Heck, there is a reason I cheer for the Red Lanterns.  Of course Tim was wearing green for a long time, but I always disliked it. It's so satisfying when your favourite character wear your favourite colours.


True but we all know where that costume comes from and that`s why it`s not Tim for me. 

But like in everything, it`s my taste.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I always felt the green was at least darker than the all red.   and I like the R symbol much better on his original uniform.

----------


## KrustyKid

> True but we all know where that costume comes from and that`s why it`s not Tim for me. 
> 
> But like in everything, it`s my taste.


It's Tim's 100%. No one is going to associate that look with any of the other Robin's besides Tim.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think many readers would associate the TAS Robin to Tim to begin with.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don`t think many readers would associate the TAS Robin to Tim to begin with.


Of course they would, because his name is 'Tim' after all. Hardcore fans though can see that version of Tim is far more in tune with Jason, from origin to personality.

But that's not the point I was making. When I see this;

1835765-robin______racerx_dcp__159___page_23.jpg

batman-arkham-city-20110614105412520.jpg

No one is thinking Jason in the least. Everyone associates that look with Tim.

----------


## Caivu

Screenshot_20170914-152508.jpg

10char

----------


## millernumber1

> Screenshot_20170914-152508.jpg
> 
> 10char


Holy cats! That's some awesome looking Eddy Barrows retconning Tim's origin...  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Screenshot_20170914-152508.jpg
> 
> 10char


marcus.jpg

I think at this point Tynion and To need to battle to the death over who the bigger Tim fanboy is.

----------


## Assam

> Screenshot_20170914-152508.jpg
> 
> 10char


Soooooo, with Tim's original origin back in place, and the recent retcon in the RHatO annual, I now FULLY believe my theory that Talia visited the Flying Graysons while she was pregnant with Damian, and the fetus was inspired Dick.

----------


## Alycat

Well they were famous so it's not all that odd. Damian is already inspired by Dick. No retcon needed.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Soooooo, with Tim's original origin back in place, and the recent retcon in the RHatO annual, I now FULLY believe my theory that Talia visited the Flying Graysons while she was pregnant with Damian, and the fetus was inspired Dick.


I would laugh if that came to be. It would be ridiculously hilarious.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Soooooo, with Tim's original origin back in place, and the recent retcon in the RHatO annual, I now FULLY believe my theory that Talia visited the Flying Graysons while she was pregnant with Damian, and the fetus was inspired Dick.


LOL.   They need like buttons on this site.

----------


## KrustyKid

> LOL.   They need like buttons on this site.


They really do.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Attachment 54734
> 
> I think at this point Tynion and To need to battle to the death over who the bigger Tim fanboy is.


Don't forget Fabian Nicieza! The guy adores Tim so much.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is cracking me up.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> This is cracking me up.


That's some textbook creeper stuff

----------


## Assam

Yeah, Fabian is a mega fan too. If I ever get the chance to meet him, I kinda wanna ask what his original plans were for the Cass and Cricket storyline, since he obviously had something planned out that he had to rush. 

Side Note: I'm really not a fan of most of Fabian's work (His Red Robin run is probably my favorite ongoing he's done) but he's gotten a number of brownie points from me for the Justice League Uthernet, Cass's appearances in Red Robin, and the thing I am eternally grateful to him for, resurrecting Lian Harper.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah, Fabian is a mega fan too. If I ever get the chance to meet him, *I kinda wanna ask what his original plans were for the Cass and Cricket storyline, since he obviously had something planned out that he had to rush*. 
> 
> Side Note: I'm really not a fan of most of Fabian's work (His Red Robin run is probably my favorite ongoing he's done) but he's gotten a number of brownie points from me for the Justice League Uthernet, Cass's appearances in Red Robin, and the thing I am eternally grateful to him for, resurrecting Lian Harper.


I too would have loved to see where all of that would have went

----------


## TheCape

> Side Note: I'm really not a fan of most of Fabian's work (His Red Robin run is probably my favorite ongoing he's done) but he's gotten a number of brownie points from me for the Justice League Uthernet, Cass's appearances in Red Robin, and the thing I am eternally grateful to him for, resurrecting Lian Harper.


Fab Nic can play the fantasy part a tad too much for my taste, sometimes, but he does the job well enought most of the time.

Also, Tim is recovering his old origin?. good, things are like they should be, not that the New 52 was a complete waste, but i still prefer the original.

----------


## Assam

> good, things are like they should be


Not even close yet. 




> not that the New 52 was a complete waste


In regards to the BatBooks? Yes, yes it was.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That's some textbook creeper stuff


Well, Tim is a creeper, so it's just a regular Friday for him.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Well, Tim is a creeper, so it's just a regular Friday for him.


And I can't deny it, lol

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #966 cover by Eddy Barrows, Eber Ferreira, and Adriano Lucas:

IMG_20170914_180552.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

That Doomsday kicking it in the back?

----------


## Caivu

> That Doomsday kicking it in the back?


Looks like it.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Looks like it.


Batman better hit Superman up on the speed dial. I doubt that little stun gun(or grapple gun) in hand is going to be very effective.

----------


## godisawesome

Doomsday and Tim are both, in their own ways, symbols of the 90's at DC;  Doomsday is the patron demon of DC's mega-events, with their spectacle and still fairly decent storytelling, while Tim's the epitome of the successful spin-off sidekick solo. (Bonus points for alliteration!) Considering who Mr. Oz is, I can't help but feel there may be some commentary on Silver Age Fanboys in DC Creative wielding the retcon and limbo stick against Post-Crisis characters. Like Mr.Oz is now the reverse Superboy Prime, an author stand-in with a bit of a mea-culpa from Johns and the others who fueled the Silver Age comeback while leaving later properties damaged in their wake.

And looking at the return of Tim's original origin, I really hope that Tim's shocked to remember these things; really play with the meta-commentary and have Tim aware he was messed with.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:   :Big Grin:  I love the Internet.

----------


## scary harpy

> Yeah, Fabian is a mega fan too. If I ever get the chance to meet him, I kinda wanna ask what his original plans were for the Cass and Cricket storyline, since he obviously had something planned out that he had to rush.





> I too would have loved to see where all of that would have went


Me too. 10 characters

----------


## scary harpy

Attachment 54734

Amazing picture.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Attachment 54734
> 
> Amazing picture.


Of course it's amazing. Marcus To drew it. His art is pure gold.  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Of course it's amazing. Marcus To drew it. His art is pure gold.


That's some beautiful work

----------


## millernumber1

I'm still really annoyed that To couldn't stay on Nightwing. It's not the Red Robin/Robin continuation I would have preferred, but To art is To art. Gorgeous.

----------


## godisawesome

He's got a great distinct style that's both more realsotically than the more cartoonish design of Timm-style art, but more clean and simple than the "in-house" art style DC preferred fro the New 52.

----------


## millernumber1

It's also incredibly appealing - it feels very manga influenced. It's such a shame that To and Dustin Nguyen weren't "desirable" enough to be on a premiere n52 series, and so they sought the greener fields of indy. I mean, I'm really glad for each of them, but selfishly, as someone who prefers cape comics, I wish they'd gotten the recognition they deserved from DC (or Marvel).

----------


## DragonPiece

> Detective Comics #966 cover by Eddy Barrows, Eber Ferreira, and Adriano Lucas:
> 
> Attachment 54736


So why do people think this is futures end tim in that batman costume? I don't remember him having a gun.

----------


## Assam

> So why do people think this is futures end tim in that batman costume? I don't remember him having a gun.


Who said that's Future's End Tim? People have been saying that Tim is going to bring back Evil Tim Batman back with him based off the solicit for the last issue of Lonely Place of Living.

----------


## Korath

Any idea about how Batman, Tim and co will deal with Doomsday ? I'm betting on Baby Darkseid, personally.

----------


## Aioros22

> Of course they would, because his name is 'Tim' after all. Hardcore fans though can see that version of Tim is far more in tune with Jason, from origin to personality.
> 
> But that's not the point I was making. When I see this;
> 
> Attachment 54728
> 
> Attachment 54729
> 
> No one is thinking Jason in the least. Everyone associates that look with Tim.


At least until the UTRH movie gave it "back" to Jason  :Wink: 

You don`t need to be a hardcore reader to figure out TAS "Tim" has nothing of Tim. By proxis a hardcore reader knows the difference between Robins, a casual guy wouldn`t.

----------


## Aioros22

> Who said that's Future's End Tim? People have been saying that Tim is going to bring back Evil Tim Batman back with him based off the solicit for the last issue of Lonely Place of Living.


So, basically Titans Tomorrow Batsy Tim? 

This has got to be how facist Batman Tim comes to be in the current Batwoman arc.

----------


## twincast

> It's his OYL costume. What's wrong with it?


It barely works with the simplistic DCAU artstyle and is a bland eyesore in any even slightly more detailed style (so especially in standard super-hero art and the occasional artsy watercolor stuff etc., but also including the terrible cartoony art he was mostly saddled with at the time); that's what's wrong with it.




> I hate the trunks. I'm not fond of the colors...too much black. Just my opinion.


The trunks are the worst part as in terms of color balance they break up all that red in an actually counterproductive way, making it two huge blobs instead of just one, but the core problem is that there is too much red. Compare this with his mostly black TV Young Justice costume(s) which actually make(s) the red-and-black look work. And again, even horrible aesthetics aside, being predominantly red does not an authentic robin look make - with or without a tautological "red" in the name. (If anything, the original Red Robin costume is the one that by far the most resembles an actual redbreast species, specifically the American robin.)




> I find it rather ugly and appealing as well.


I assume you meant appalling, not appealing.  :Wink: 




> Cass's Batgirl costume was perfect. I'm in love with that costume. I love Steph's costume too, but for different reasons. Steph's costume was really pretty and sexy, while Cass's costume was the most badass costume I have ever seen.


Cass's was the most badass indeed. Steph's, though, was weird above all else. Mostly because of the bumpy texture of the eggplant stripes. Still, pretty much everything's better than Babs's current cheap hipster costume.




> Attachment 54733


*manly squee*




> Of course it's amazing. Marcus To drew it. His art is pure gold.


Beautiful as always, but I do have to wonder how he keeps that giant chest buckle thing inconspicuously hidden underneath a dress shirt.

----------


## adrikito

> Detective Comics #966 cover by Eddy Barrows, Eber Ferreira, and Adriano Lucas:
> 
> Attachment 54736


This thing is too dangerous.... WE NEED GOTHAM GIRL POWERS..

OR SUPERMAN AROUND HERE..

----------


## KrustyKid

> At least until the UTRH movie gave it "back" to Jason 
> 
> You don`t need to be a hardcore reader to figure out TAS "Tim" has nothing of Tim. By proxis a hardcore reader knows the difference between Robins, a casual guy wouldn`t.


Except the OYL suit is Tim's, always has been. If you put a bunch of pictures of different Robin outfits in a lineup, I guarantee you the majority would say the red/black themed Robin is Tim. Even you can't deny that. No one associates that suit with Jason(except perhaps you :Smile: .

----------


## shadowsgirl

It's Tim time!

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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## KrustyKid

> 


Fire Emblem Tim style, nice

----------


## TheCape

Nice images, is good to see Tim in all his bishonen glory, no wonder why girls couldn't keep their hands off him, before the reboot :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Nice images, is good to see Tim in all his bishonen glory, no wonder why girls couldn't keep their hands off him, before the reboot


Never did care for that aspect of Red Robin personally. Though it did lead to what appears to be a very, very weird running joke on 4Chan that at the end of Gates of Gotham, Tim and Cass had sex, and since Tim losing his virginity was supposed to be impossible, it caused Flashpoint.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Nice images, is good to see Tim in all his bishonen glory, no wonder why girls couldn't keep their hands off him, before the reboot


Yeah, he is prettier than most girls.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> Except the OYL suit is Tim's, always has been. If you put a bunch of pictures of different Robin outfits in a lineup, I guarantee you the majority would say the red/black themed Robin is Tim. Even you can't deny that. No one associates that suit with Jason(except perhaps you.


Well, me and fan artists. Oh and Timm and the director of the movie who was also a concept artist of the show. 

You`re talking about a level of perception based on just reading the comic line of a publication period and based on just that, you`re right. The broad horizon is that as soon one looks into where it comes from you`re absolutely bound to realize (if you`re a reader as you say) that the characer from that piece of media is "Tim" only in name. 

Hey, I though - and many still do - that the Lion King is a Disney original. Turns out it`s anything but  :Wink:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Well, me and fan artists. Oh and Timm and the director of the movie who was also a concept artist of the show. 
> 
> You`re talking about a level of perception based on just reading the comic line of a publication period and based on just that, you`re right. The broad horizon is that as soon one looks into where it comes from you`re absolutely bound to realize (if you`re a reader as you say) *that the characer from that piece of media is "Tim" only in name*. 
> 
> Hey, I though - and many still do - that the Lion King is a Disney original. Turns out it`s anything but


I never disagreed with you on that, I actually agree with you 100% in that regard. The Tim in that show was Tim only in name.

The OYL suit however is something most would associate with Tim. DCAU Tim had a black/red theme costume, but as did YJ Dick and Tim. Do you consider those Jason's suit's as well?

387b957e9ac9db4265b7ac990bd548a0.jpg

young_justice__tim_drake_by_phillybee-d4zn6ww.jpg

There's a big enough difference between all four robin suits that are black/red themed to where I associate it to one particular Robin. While the DCAU Tim look is similar to the OYL look they have their clear differences that separate them. Long sleeves, the design of the cape, glove gauntlets, etc.

----------


## CPSparkles

> From Tynion's twitter:
> For those of you asking, "Wait, does that mean _______?!?!" 
> The answer is yes.


Well this is great news.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Gotta love chibi Tim. Thanks for posting Shadowsgirl

----------


## godisawesome

> Never did care for that aspect of Red Robin personally. Though it did lead to what appears to be a very, very weird running joke on 4Chan that at the end of Gates of Gotham, Tim and Cass had sex, and since Tim losing his virginity was supposed to be impossible, it caused Flashpoint.


I understand the issues you had with "chick magnet" Tim. It was getting a little crazy under Nicieza, especially when Tim was about to be "after school specialed" by Ra's Al Ghul's sister, though at least that was portrayed as an assault that needed to be stopped. And it was somewhat strange that Tim was suddenly meeting multiple dual-gun wielding female foes with "P" names and complex antagonism with him; I have expected Prudence and Promise to be joined by Purity and Patience. I will confess to a guilty enjoyment of that aspect of FabNic's turn on Red Robin, though. I approached it as mostly comedy and an exagerration of Tim's romantic past. It was better than anything we saw in Teen Titans, before or after Flashpoint....

And I really like the overhaul FabNic did on Lynx. How do you reinterpret the Catwoman-archetype for Tim Drake? Add in genuine ambiguity about her real allegiances and suggest she's also an extraordinary servant of higher power. And have their dynamic play up how Tim isn't even remotely aggressive in romantic pursuits by having her foil him in opposition.

----------


## sakuyamons

With how cute Tim was drawn by Marcos To, no wonder why he was being a womanizer  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Gotta love chibi Tim. Thanks for posting Shadowsgirl


Chibi Tim is adorable. I love posting about Tim and luckily enough, there are so many awesome picture on the net.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> With how cute Tim was drawn by Marcos To, no wonder why he was being a womanizer


Yeah, girls love pretty boys. The best thing about Tim is that he doesn't know how handsome he is. He is shy and awkward around girls, which makes him more adorable.

----------


## shadowsgirl

A Lonely Place of Dying

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl

This looks cool

----------


## KrustyKid

> This looks cool


I really like that one as well

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim, you're so awkward. I love it!

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Bobias

Im consistently begging the comic gods that theyll bring back the pre-new 52 Red Robin costume. I want the cowl back so badly. It was overall one of the coolest bat-family costumes ever!

----------


## KrustyKid

I'd certainly be ok with some variation of it.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Im consistently begging the comic gods that theyll bring back the pre-new 52 Red Robin costume. I want the cowl back so badly. It was overall one of the coolest bat-family costumes ever!


I agree. I loved that costume.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Steph

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## KrustyKid

Team Robin,

tumblr_owd5l4qXXs1u3xbigo1_1280.jpg

----------


## twincast

Erm, I love Tim x Steph as much as the next guy, but that's some serious image overload to scroll through heavily bordering on spam... At the very least you should've dropped the low quality ones. Seriously, enthusiasm is fine but show some restraint and spread this amount of image dumping out across a few days, please.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't mind the image spam. Half the time, that's what marks a good appreciation thread; when it's a true hybrid of discussion and fanart.

----------


## yohyoi

Can the thread's name be changed to Tim x Steph Appreciation? It's bordering it already. I joke.

I agree with twincast, it's best to spread the image posting to days, especially if it's fanart. Putting everything in one sitting makes it easy to skip. If you put it out evenly people would notice and appreciate it more.

Also please source your images if you can. Just googling for images is lazy and the artists also deserve acknowledgement.

----------


## Aioros22

> I never disagreed with you on that, I actually agree with you 100% in that regard. The Tim in that show was Tim only in name.
> 
> The OYL suit however is something most would associate with Tim. DCAU Tim had a black/red theme costume, but as did YJ Dick and Tim. Do you consider those Jason's suit's as well?
> 
> Attachment 54767
> 
> Attachment 54768
> 
> There's a big enough difference between all four robin suits that are black/red themed to where I associate it to one particular Robin. While the DCAU Tim look is similar to the OYL look they have their clear differences that separate them. Long sleeves, the design of the cape, glove gauntlets, etc.


If I would? Kinda, yeah. The main asthetic difference between the TAS suit and both Tim and Jason`s UTRH and OYL designs are both having the sleeves but then again "Tim" was also much younger in the show whereas both Tim and Jason were coniderably older. These variations all came from the same place. 

The same color scheme is next shared by everyone in YJ with Jason and Tim`s oufit being the most similar, again, because of the sleeves. 





I can`t disagree in this case Jason having more black and Tim having more red though  :Wink:

----------


## TheCape

> Never did care for that aspect of Red Robin personally. Though it did lead to what appears to be a very, very weird running joke on 4Chan that at the end of Gates of Gotham, Tim and Cass had sex, and since Tim losing his virginity was supposed to be impossible, it caused Flashpoint.


I find it funny, more than anyhing else and sort of a guilty pleasure, but i won't loose my sleep if i never saw it ever again (alhought if you ask me, only Tam and Lynx were treated seriuosly)

----------


## J. D. Guy

> It's Tim time!


Oh my goodness, you have no idea how much I love this one!  :Big Grin: 

(It's also one of the few posted with Tim in his New 52 Red Robin attire. And it's so well drawn!)




> Team Robin,
> 
> tumblr_owd5l4qXXs1u3xbigo1_1280.jpg


This is actually pretty nice.

----------


## Assam

> I find it funny, more than anyhing else and sort of a guilty pleasure, but i won't loose my sleep if i never saw it ever again (alhought if you ask me, only Tam and Lynx were treated seriuosly)


You know, while Luke has grown on me, given how awesome Tam was in Red Robin, I kind of wish that if David HAD to be replaced, instead of creating Luke, Tam was given the Batwing mantle.

----------


## Dataweaver

What, you didn't like Foxy Lady?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

I hope the Redbird will come back. It appeared in Detective #950, so hopefully Tim will use it again.

----------


## KrustyKid

Same. I'm a big fan of the Redbird

----------


## CPSparkles

> Team Robin,
> 
> tumblr_owd5l4qXXs1u3xbigo1_1280.jpg


This is sweet.

----------


## KrustyKid

> This is sweet.


Yea, I love how the gangs all there

----------


## Dataweaver

The gang? The only one from the gang who's there is Duke. No sign of Daxton, Andre, Riko, Isabella, or any of the other Robins in the gang. And what's with Carrie being there? The closest she ever got to being Robin was during a costume party. 

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> The gang? The only one from the gang who's there is Duke. No sign of Daxton, Andre, Riko, Isabella, or any of the other Robins in the gang. And what's with Carrie being there? The closest she ever got to being Robin was during a costume party.


Well, I guess I can't argue that, lol

----------


## KrustyKid

Another for the bat boys,

tumblr_ow25g6bobr1w2mqubo1_1280.jpg

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## shadowsgirl



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## adrikito

In a few days, in a prison outside of space and time, Tim Drake hears a very unexpected voice...

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57558053724160

MAYBE, KON-EL..

DKbbsh_W0AA4z7b.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> In a few days, in a prison outside of space and time, Tim Drake hears a very unexpected voice...
> 
> MAYBE, KON-EL..


Dude, don't tease me like that

----------


## Assam

> Dude, don't tease me like that


If it IS Kon and/or Bart, DC's been deliberately trying to kill any potential hype for this story based on how responses to fans have gone. 

As it stands, I'm thinking the voice is just his own, either from TimBeyond or EvilTim.

----------


## KrustyKid

> In a few days, in a prison outside of space and time, Tim Drake hears a very unexpected voice...
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57558053724160
> 
> MAYBE, KON-EL..
> 
> DKbbsh_W0AA4z7b.jpg


Or it could simply be that Tim is finally losing his mind after being in that cell for so long.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Or it could simply be that Tim is finally losing his mind after being in that cell for so long.


It's unlikely, but it would be interesting if he went a little crazy. He spent months in total isolation in a prison cell. There must be consequences. Being captive outside of space and time while everyone believes you to be dead is pretty rough, so it has to cause something. Nightmares, hallucinations, dark thoughts, depression and all the other nasty stuff would be normal, but who knows what Tynion is planning with Tim. I really hope he will struggle with the aftermaths when he returns. The human psyche is fragile, so extreme circumstances may trigger extreme reactions.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's unlikely, but it would be interesting if he went a little crazy. He spent months in total isolation in a prison cell. There must be consequences. Being captive outside of space and time while everyone believes you to be dead is pretty rough, so it has to cause something. Nightmares, hallucinations, dark thoughts, depression and all the other nasty stuff would be normal, but who knows what Tynion is planning with Tim. I really hope he will struggle with the aftermaths when he returns. The human psyche is fragile, so extreme circumstances may trigger extreme reactions.


My comment wasn't to be taken serious, I was totally joking, lol. If that did in fact turn out to be true, I don't think most of us would have seen that coming.

----------


## Assam

> My comment wasn't to be taken serious, I was totally joking, lol. If that did in fact turn out to be true, *I don't think most of us would have seen that coming.*


https://twitter.com/KingImpulse/stat...32488367673349

Hmmmmm.

And actually, I've been predicting something like this happening with Tim for months.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> My comment wasn't to be taken serious, I was totally joking, lol. If that did in fact turn out to be true, I don't think most of us would have seen that coming.


I know you were joking, but a traumatic experience could cause some serious trouble. We are talking about a fictional character here, but a real person would totally go crazy. I don't think Tynion wants to do this, but it would be really interesting. If everything happens without consequences, then what's the point?

----------


## CPSparkles

> It's unlikely, but it would be interesting if he went a little crazy. He spent months in total isolation in a prison cell. There must be consequences. Being captive outside of space and time while everyone believes you to be dead is pretty rough, so it has to cause something. Nightmares, hallucinations, dark thoughts, depression and all the other nasty stuff would be normal, but who knows what Tynion is planning with Tim. I really hope he will struggle with the aftermaths when he returns. The human psyche is fragile, so extreme circumstances may trigger extreme reactions.


Yeah but we don't want him to struggle for to long.Enough wit the suffering Tim and emotional baggage Tim just let him have some normality and positive direction in his life.

----------


## CPSparkles

Why is Tim smelling Dick's costume? Wow

----------


## TheCape

Tim Drake.... not getting a break since 2004  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> In a few days, in a prison outside of space and time, Tim Drake hears a very unexpected voice...
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57558053724160
> 
> MAYBE, KON-EL..
> 
> Attachment 55089


I wonder who that face on the screen is? 



> https://twitter.com/KingImpulse/stat...32488367673349
> 
> Hmmmmm.
> 
> And actually, I've been predicting something like this happening with Tim for months.


I'm not familiar with who this is, so I'm just assuming they're experienced enough with comics for whatever happens to be genuinely surprising and shocking.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Yeah but we don't want him to struggle for to long.Enough wit the suffering Tim and emotional baggage Tim just let him have some normality and positive direction in his life.


Speak for yourself. I love dark and brooding Tim. Too much happiness makes me sick. I choose drama and suffering over the happy, boring stuff. I'm a Batman fan, so I don't know what 'positive direction' means.

----------


## Assam

> Tim Drake.... not getting a break since 2004


I mean...

hug 1.jpg

hug 2.jpg

final momentss.jpg

There was still _some_ happiness before the reboot.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> There was still*some*happiness before the reboot.*


Oh, i know,  those scans are favorite's of mine, i was sort of joking but around that period was when the problem with Tim started and we have been in a rush mountain of quality since then.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, i know,  those scans are favorite's of mine, i was sort of joking but around that period was when the problem with Tim started and we have been in a rush mountain of quality since then.


Well, 2004 is really when EVERYTHING started going  to crap so I don't exactly disagree.

----------


## godisawesome

> I wonder who that face on the screen is? 
> 
> I'm not familiar with who this is, so I'm just assuming they're experienced enough with comics for whatever happens to be genuinely surprising and shocking.


Judging from the collar and the mask on the face on the screen, it's a closeup of his own face. 

Now, if we follow my idea that Tim is suddenly remembering his old history or is going to be remembering his history here, as to who this could be...

Kon/Bart. We all know that having Tim's Rebirth lead to the rehabilitation of his allies is a strong contender for a "golden ending" to Tim's disappearance; in one fell swoop, the damage of the New 52 would be ended, and a fascinating premise launched for those characters.

Or.

An old enemy, like King Snake. Someone who Tim suddenly remembers, someone who should be dead, but has been resurrected by Oz's tamperings. Tim would suddenly have his brain overloaded _and_ have to deal with a dangerous opponent.

Or. 

Pre-Flashpoint Tim. Having a Superman-esque amalgamation could be a short but accepted remedy to Tim's issues, and having a contrast between the two versions could service those readers who may have actually met New 52 Tim first.

----------


## KrustyKid

85209bd7ffafc3103a438d7fa20d9abb.jpg

Now that's what you call a swap

----------


## scary harpy

> 85209bd7ffafc3103a438d7fa20d9abb.jpg
> 
> Now that's what you call a swap


i'm thinking he'd look good in eggplant/purple/lavender/whatever.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Steph likes to dress up as Tim





And Tim....well, he does what Stephanie wants

----------


## millernumber1

> 85209bd7ffafc3103a438d7fa20d9abb.jpg
> 
> Now that's what you call a swap





> Steph likes to dress up as Tim


I love these two images, and these two characters. I hope very much that with Tim's return, we'll get some goofy fun with them together, similar to the rooftop flashback two issues of Tec ago.

----------


## Frontier

Steph fills out those costumes quite well  :Wink: .

----------


## scary harpy

> Steph fills out those costumes quite well .


So does Tim...considering it should be looser-fitting top and really snug lower.

 :Big Grin:

----------


## sakuyamons

Anyone excited for Wednesday?  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

I am cautiosly optimistic.

----------


## Frontier

> Anyone excited for Wednesday?


After the preview...yes  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Assam

> Anyone excited for Wednesday?


Right now I'm mostly hyped for October 11th. The NEXT issue of Lonely Place of Living, Cass in RHatO, an issue of the uncancelled New Super-Man (I'd LOVE to see a book actually have "Uncancelled" in its title BTW), Kenan appearing in Kara's book meaning I actually have to buy her book for once, though I trust Orlando to make it ok,  and getting to riff on a crappy issue of BoP? HAPPY TIMES.

----------


## Frontier

> Right now I'm mostly hyped for October 11th. The NEXT issue of Lonely Place of Living, Cass in RHatO, an issue of the uncancelled New Super-Man (I'd LOVE to see a book actually have "Uncancelled" in its title BTW), Kenan appearing in Kara's book meaning I actually have to buy her book for once, though I trust Orlando to make it ok,  and getting to riff on a crappy issue of BoP? HAPPY TIMES.


Ah, I hope you enjoy _Supergirl_ and _Birds of Prey_  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Ah, I hope you enjoy _Supergirl_ and _Birds of Prey_ .


Like I said, I have faith in _Orlando._ :Stick Out Tongue: 

Thank you though

----------


## Frontier

> Like I said, I have faith in _Orlando._
> 
> Thank you though


The Bensons have delivered stronger work then they have been right now and I hope they improve for the next arc.

----------


## adrikito

> anyone excited for wednesday?


of course..

Thanks Tim for *BATMAN NEEDS A ROBIN*.. I believe in these words since I saw BATMAN THE ANIMATED SERIES.. I like see both as a team.

----------


## Assam

> The Bensons have delivered stronger work then they have been right now and I hope they improve for the next arc.


I've watched a few episodes of The 100. They weren't awful (by CW standards) but I found nothing too appealing about it.

----------


## adrikito

> Attachment 55121
> 
> Now that's what you call a swap






> Steph likes to dress up as Tim


I never saw these images in Steph Appreciation.. hahahaha.. FUNNY..

----------


## godisawesome

> Anyone excited for Wednesday?


_YESSSSSSSSSS....._

image.jpg

In all seriousness, while I'm very happy about reintegrating the original background, I'm very curious about the impetus for Tim's removal from the game field, and how Tynion will address the "Red Robin" codename.

----------


## millernumber1

> _YESSSSSSSSSS....._
> 
> In all seriousness, while I'm very happy about reintegrating the original background, I'm very curious about the impetus for Tim's removal from the game field, and how Tynion will address the "Red Robin" codename.


That last one is really intriguing to me, since he was distinctly Red Robin in the first arc, and he had Batman massage the "Tim was never Robin" thing, but still acknowledging that he was Red Robin. Now...we don't know...  :Smile:

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I'm cautiosly optimistic too, after reading the preview. It seems Tim got back his Robin past.
I felt reassured reading these few pages. I can't wait for tomorrow.

----------


## godisawesome

image.jpg

...And I'll be waiting until sometime after 4pm CT, since I've got a 30 minute commute to my teaching job and 7 different classes to teach. :Frown:

----------


## twincast

Well, the rest of the pages are
*spoilers:*
"I've always planned to leave the superhero lifestyle behind me. (*smile*) ... And while you were distracted, I genius-level hacked you! (*sigh*)"
"I am Jor-El! I was a prisoner here, too! You are as naive as I used to be. Bye."
and fascist future Tim shooting at Doomsday.
*end of spoilers*

In other words, almost all the good stuff was in the preview. The rest could still go either way.

----------


## RedBird

> In other words, almost all the good stuff was in the preview. The rest could still go either way.


*spoilers:*
Pretty much. The reintroduction of the origin was great and the intensions behind it felt true to the original. (I didnt hate the new origin except for the endangering his family parts, and whilst I do think the old one is a tad cheesy it does display Tim and his initial contact with Dick Grayson again which I enjoyed, I hope this means their relationship can be touched upon more in the future). The hacking scene was just....SIGH. But it doesnt last long and is only there so Tim can knock out the bad guy and reveal his identity, so, whatever, its a nitpick. I can't say I'm too interested about this whole future Batman stuff but I guess the plot has to move forward, right, and its not really that bad, I'm just not personally invested as of yet. 

There was some great stuff in this issue but honestly I'm just still not feeling the importance of Tims situation, Tynion is trying to make Tims disappearance and his return as a bigger deal than his writing makes it feel. We're more so told about the situations direness rather than shown its impact. Besides Stephs freakout (which felt like a hindrance to her character) there hasnt been a strong outside force which has made Tims 'death' feel impactful. Im hoping the next few issues will change my mind but I'm also afraid Tynion wasted WAY too much time keeping Tim behind bars. I mean, dont get me wrong, being jailed for this long and mistaken as dead is a desperate scenario, but it only ever feels important _to Tims character,_ but maybe thats the point? Perhaps its all just a journey of self discovery for Tim? I don't know, we'll see.


*end of spoilers*

----------


## Assam

> *spoilers:*
> Pretty much. The reintroduction of the origin was great and the intensions behind it felt true to the original. (I didnt hate the new origin except for the endangering his family parts, and whilst I do think the old one is a tad cheesy it does display Tim and his initial contact with Dick Grayson again which I enjoyed, I hope this means their relationship can be touched upon more in the future). The hacking scene was just....SIGH. But it doesnt last long and is only there so Tim can knock out the bad guy and reveal his identity, so, whatever, its a nitpick. I can't say I'm too interested about this whole future Batman stuff but I guess the plot has to move forward, right, and its not really that bad, I'm just not personally invested as of yet. 
> 
> There was some great stuff in this issue but honestly I'm just still not feeling the importance of Tims situation, Tynion is trying to make Tims disappearance and his return as a bigger deal than his writing makes it feel. We're more so told about the situations direness rather than shown its impact. Besides Stephs freakout (which felt like a hindrance to her character) there hasnt been a strong outside force which has made Tims 'death' feel impactful. Im hoping the next few issues will change my mind but I'm also afraid Tynion wasted WAY too much time keeping Tim behind bars. I mean, dont get me wrong, being jailed for this long and mistaken as dead is a desperate scenario, but it only ever feels important _to Tims character,_ but maybe thats the point? Perhaps its all just a journey of self discovery for Tim? I don't know, we'll see.
> 
> 
> *end of spoilers*


Definitely agree with this. From the start, Tynion's been saying how Tim's so important and so connected that he needed to be taken, but he's only been shown having a close relationship with *2* people. _We_ know Tim has a lot more meaningful relationships than just Bruce and Steph, but most of the people he's close to aren't even around or if they are he hasn't spoken a word to them (Pretty sure if he hadn't been gone for a year, we could have gotten at least a scene of two of Tim and Cass re-bonding) And frankly, if we're using that logic, the characters Pre-FP who were the most interconnected were Dick, Wally and Roy, definitely not Tim. 

Still waiting to see where this goes, but as I've said, if all this amounts to is some multiple Tims and Doomsday, this arc is gonna be crap not because of anything it does, but because of what it didn't do after wasting so much time previously.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Definitely agree with this. From the start, Tynion's been saying how Tim's so important and so connected that he needed to be taken, but he's only been shown having a close relationship with *2* people. _We_ know Tim has a lot more meaningful relationships than just Bruce and Steph, but most of the people he's close to aren't even around or if they are he hasn't spoken a word to them (Pretty sure if he hadn't been gone for a year, we could have gotten at least a scene of two of Tim and Cass re-bonding) And frankly, if we're using that logic, the characters Pre-FP who were the most interconnected were Dick, Wally and Roy, definitely not Tim. 
> 
> Still waiting to see where this goes, but as I've said, if all this amounts to is some multiple Tims and Doomsday, this arc is gonna be crap not because of anything it does, but because of what it didn't do after wasting so much time previously.


I would argue that just restoring Tim to the real deal is already a win and worthwhile.
I do agree with yours and Redbird's feeling's on Tim importance to the whole Oz plan and the reasons he was taken but since I never believed Tynion pitch on that I don't mind.
Tim needed a comeback. That couldn't happen if he stayed around in Tec.  He needed to go away, have some fantastical thing happen and return restored.

In the long run getting his origin back is more important than his role in the Rebirth storyline

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I would argue that just restoring Tim to the real deal is already a win and worthwhile.
> I do agree with yours and Redbird's feeling's on Tim importance to the whole Oz plan and the reasons he was taken but since I never believed Tynion pitch on that I don't mind.
> Tim needed a comeback. That couldn't happen if he stayed around in Tec.  He needed to go away, have some fantastical thing happen and return restored.
> 
> In the long run getting his origin back is more important than his role in the Rebirth storyline


Here's my problem though, he's not really the real deal is he? He may have his old origin but he still acts like the new incarnation. He's an arrogant kid who hacks things. He's lost all of the charm of the old Tim Drake. Plus they never explicitly said that his new origin is replaced. So now his origin is kind of a mess because those two origins can't really coexist.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Also what's the deal with his costumes now? He was officially a Robin, moved on to Red Robin for reasons that are now unclear, then got his old Robin costume back and stuck an extra R on it?

----------


## CPSparkles

> Here's my problem though, he's not really the real deal is he? He may have his old origin but he still acts like the new incarnation. He's an arrogant kid who hacks things. He's lost all of the charm of the old Tim Drake. Plus they never explicitly said that his new origin is replaced. So now his origin is kind of a mess because those two origins can't really coexist.


You're not wrong  :Frown:  so disappointed with some of the dialogue and the fact that the hacks are still a thing but I'm going for a glass half full way of thinking. I hope we address the two origins things soon. Tynion likes this personality on tim that much is clear from his doubling down and Tim has become more bearable since Rebirth and Tynion so I'm hoping he keeps improving.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I hate Tim's narcissism. Where is his humble, down to Earth personality? He is still just New52 Tim 2.0. The real Tim was sweet and had some lack of self-confidence. But now he is claiming that "I'm the smartest and most dangerous teenager". What is this nonsense?

----------


## millernumber1

A lot of people bounce hard off of Tynion's consistent characterization of Tim as cocky or arrogant - but he usually does that when crowing over major threats he's vanquished. I'm having difficulty remembering how Tim responded to the major threats he vanquished in post-Crisis continuity - when he beat Shiva at the end of Robin and then Ra's in Red Robin, I think there was a bit of that quality. But maybe someone could pull up some other major threats Tim's faced and not done a bit of crowing about?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I hate Tim's narcissism. Where is his humble, down to Earth personality? He is still just New52 Tim 2.0. The real Tim was sweet and had some lack of self-confidence. But now he is claiming that "I'm the smartest and most dangerous teenager". What is this nonsense?


My desperate hope is that the Evil Tim story line is going to be a mechanism to "organically" justify Tim becoming more humble, similar to his old self.

----------


## TheCape

> A lot of people bounce hard off of Tynion's consistent characterization of Tim as cocky or arrogant - but he usually does that when crowing over major threats he's vanquished. I'm having difficulty remembering how Tim responded to the major threats he vanquished in post-Crisis continuity - when he beat Shiva at the end of Robin and then Ra's in Red Robin, I think there was a bit of that quality. But maybe someone could pull up some other major threats Tim's faced and not done a bit of crowing about?


Back in the day, Tim was sort of cocky about the things that he knew he was better than other, like how he liked to rub in Helena and Steph that he knew their secret identities, but was more humble about things like physical combat. I interpret this as largely the same, he outdo an enemy using the thing that he is best than everyone. The hacking is still pretty lame, thought.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Back in the day, Tim was sort of cocky about the things that he knew he was better than other, like how he liked to rub in Helena and Steph that he knew their secret identities, but was more humble about things like physical combat. I interpret this as largely the same, he outdo an enemy using the thing that he is best than everyone. The hacking is still pretty lame, thought.


I think before his cockiness was kind of poked fun at though. Like he would say something cocky to steph but she would invade his personal space and make him super uncomfortable.

----------


## josai21

Hacking is lame, but the pride aspect is not out of character for Tim's development. 
DOn't get me wrong, the arrogance was through the roof in We Are Robin and in some other writings, but in Detective it is pretty equivalent to Tim at the end of Red Robin.

Tim at the end of Red Robin is no longer the humble, self depreciating kid he used to be.

He's a chessmaster getting close to Lex Luthor levels. 

The battle over whether he should become Batman or not was also a subtle subtext in Red Robin.

Tynion's returing the character to those same conflicts.

----------


## Aahz

> So now his origin is kind of a mess because those two origins can't really coexist.


Thats the problem with Rebirth imo, at the moment it looks like they are going for a very messy "everything is continuity" approach, and I'm not really convinced that they will really pin down in the end what is continuity and what isn't, and that not really a good foundation for the post rebirth DCU.

----------


## KurtW95

I'm very glad that Tim's older origin is now more or less intact and that it's his real name again. Only problem is that now, apparently, Jason was also at the circus that day, which makes it a little weird.

----------


## Assam

> I'm very glad that Tim's older origin is now more or less intact and that it's his real name again. Only problem is that now, apparently, Jason was also at the circus that day, which makes it a little weird.


I don't think Jason was at the circus on that specific day, 

Also, have we gotten as much of Tim's history back as we're going to? Because it's basically not possible to restore ANYTHING else without retoring Cass, Steph, Bart, Kon and Cassie's histories, and that's not happening anytime soon.

----------


## KurtW95

> I don't think Jason was at the circus on that specific day, 
> 
> Also, have we gotten as much of Tim's history back as we're going to? Because it's basically not possible to restore ANYTHING else without retoring Cass, Steph, Bart, Kon and Cassie's histories, and that's not happening anytime soon.


I thought that's what happened in the RHATO annual issue with Jason and Dick.

----------


## Assam

> I thought that's what happened in the RHATO annual issue with Jason and Dick.


I didn't read the issue, but my understanding was that he saw Dick at the circus, but not the night the Graysons died.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, have we gotten as much of Tim's history back as we're going to? Because it's basically not possible to restore ANYTHING else without retoring Cass, Steph, Bart, Kon and Cassie's histories, and that's not happening anytime soon.


I think the more immediate big problems are the histories of Jean-Paul, Helena and Steph. 
The rest you named didn't really played a role in Tims first decade of publication.
And at least for his solo series (and the rest of the Batman stories he appeared in) the YJ4 are also not relevant.

But without Jean-Paul, Helena and Steph you basically have to stop after his second mini series.

----------


## KurtW95

> I didn't read the issue, but my understanding was that he saw Dick at the circus, but not the night the Graysons died.


Just checked. You're right.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I didn't read the issue, but my understanding was that he saw Dick at the circus, but not the night the Graysons died.


You are correct.

----------


## Alycat

I don't know why people thought it was the same night. Doubt it would be a happy memory if it was.

----------


## KurtW95

> I don't know why people thought it was the same night. Doubt it would be a happy memory if it was.


I don't even know why I assumed it was when I read it.

----------


## Midnighter

> Here's my problem though, he's not really the real deal is he? He may have his old origin but he still acts like the new incarnation. He's an arrogant kid who hacks things. He's lost all of the charm of the old Tim Drake. Plus they never explicitly said that his new origin is replaced. So now his origin is kind of a mess because those two origins can't really coexist.


These are good points but is it possible that the reason Mr. Oz took him in the first place is _because_ Tim is starting to remember his original origin instead of his new 52 one?

Maybe that's what Oz meant by him putting things together that he shouldn't be. If Mr Oz is Jor-El and it's going to be up to Superman to confront Dr. Manhattan maybe Jor-el was worried that Tim's memory/continuity restoration might tip off Manhattan to the continuity ripples that have been happening since Rebirth began, before Oz has Superman positioned for Doomsday Clock and whatever he feels Kal needs to do there.

----------


## godisawesome

It does seem suggested that Oz is a reactive force here while Manhattan/whatever else it is seems to be the proactive force; thus, it seems inferred that Tim's New 52 backstory is the product of that character's manipulation, so that explanation will probably be connected to Johns's work. And I do agree with the idea that we're still too early into this story to see if it'll be worth it.

If they address the fact that Tim's past _has_ been changed, and set Tim up for an interesting launch point post-Rebirth, I'll be satisfied. If he just reaches some pale imitation of his early 90's status quo, I probably won't be satisfied.

----------


## K. Jones

This won't discount the other reasonings for Oz selecting Tim, nor the importance of ... well, the "10-year-sliding-scale" DCU timeline on Tim's own backstory and growing up in Gotham watching it unfold as a "third generation sidekick". But I personally believe Zod selected Tim specifically because he found a way to get out of there, wanted to personally get Superman to come with him away from Earth and work on his own agenda there, and thought leaving Tim (or "Tims") in the Prison were the best kind of proxy he could have to continue monkeying with Manhattan's greater agenda. I mean Jor is a Twelfth Level intellect for sure and yeah, maybe Luthor is the closest thing Earth has to him, but as far as civic-mindedness, rebellion and cleverness I think he sees Tim as a closer, if not as "technically brilliant!" mirror of himself at the Fall of Krypton.

But I also think the Conner and Bart connections are going to have MASSIVE roles to play.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> These are good points but is it possible that the reason Mr. Oz took him in the first place is _because_ Tim is starting to remember his original origin instead of his new 52 one?
> 
> Maybe that's what Oz meant by him putting things together that he shouldn't be. If Mr Oz is Jor-El and it's going to be up to Superman to confront Dr. Manhattan maybe Jor-el was worried that Tim's memory/continuity restoration might tip off Manhattan to the continuity ripples that have been happening since Rebirth began, before Oz has Superman positioned for Doomsday Clock and whatever he feels Kal needs to do there.


You could be right but it doesn't work for me because Tim isn't special in that regard. Jason's origin was restored but Oz doesn't want him? The reunion issue of Grayson, there were speech bubbles containing pre flashpoint quotes. When walking through the empty quarter Dick remembered the Robin dies at Dawn arc as a dream. Surely Wally West is a bigger threat? He remembers everything. When the other Titans touched him their memories were restored. I'm sure there's other examples in books I don't follow. I'm not buying Tim's status of the chosen one.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I think the more immediate big problems are the histories of Jean-Paul, Helena and Steph. 
> The rest you named didn't really played a role in Tims first decade of publication.
> And at least for his solo series (and the rest of the Batman stories he appeared in) the YJ4 are also not relevant.
> 
> But without Jean-Paul, Helena and Steph you basically have to stop after his second mini series.


Even Jean-Paul and Helena don't necessarily need their histories restored. Yeah, we lose Cry of the Huntress (a.k.a., Robin III); but really, the only lasting effects that miniseries had was Jack Drake getting out of the hospital and Tim meeting Ariana, his first girlfriend. You don't really need Helena for that. As for Jean-Paul: his major contribution to Tim's story was that he kicked Tim out of the Batcave when he became AzBats. After that, virtually nothing. Come up with an alternate reason why Tim decided to go it alone, and the Azrael backstory isn't needed anymore. 

That just leaves Stephanie, who was introduced as part of Tim's supporting cast and continued to fill that role right up to her death in War Games. Unlike Huntress and Azrael, she wasn't there merely for one event after which she went her own way; she was a continuing presence in Tim's life for the better part of his series. To the extent that her past isn't restored, there will continue to be holes in Tim's past.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Plus they never explicitly said that his new origin is replaced. So now his origin is kind of a mess because those two origins can't really coexist.


That's fine by me. Mind you, there are elements of his N52 origin that I like: what happened to his parents, and the Penguin playing a key role in Tim becoming Robin.  But that's more of a clash with the Obeah Man story, and I wouldn't mind seeing _that_ heavily revised to more closely resemble the N52 origin: have Tim's parents get in trouble with the Penguin instead of the Obeah Man, have them get placed in witness protection for a while (instead of being dead or in a coma, respectfully), and revise Jack's recovery as the circumstances cooling down to the point that is safe for them to come out of hiding. (And note: I said to have his parents get in trouble, not to have Tim get his parents in trouble.)

----------


## godisawesome

> That's fine by me. Mind you, there are elements of his N52 origin that I like: what happened to his parents, and the Penguin playing a key role in Tim becoming Robin.  But that's more of a clash with the Obeah Man story, and I wouldn't mind seeing _that_ heavily revised to more closely resemble the N52 origin: have Tim's parents get in trouble with the Penguin instead of the Obeah Man, have them get placed in witness protection for a while (instead of being dead or in a coma, respectfully), and revise Jack's recovery as the circumstances cooling down to the point that is safe for them to come out of hiding. (And note: I said to have his parents get in trouble, not to have Tim get his parents in trouble.)


To be honest, I hope that the disconnect between the "doubling down" on his New 52 origin and the return of his old one in TEC is going to be directly addressed in some creative way; a simple hand wave retcon would be kind of lazy, and probably signal a lack of interest in rehabbing any of the other YJ4.

----------


## RedBird

> Hacking is lame, but the pride aspect is not out of character for Tim's development. 
> DOn't get me wrong, the arrogance was through the roof in We Are Robin and in some other writings, but in Detective it is pretty equivalent to Tim at the end of Red Robin.
> 
> Tim at the end of Red Robin is no longer the humble, self depreciating kid he used to be.
> 
> He's a chessmaster getting close to Lex Luthor levels. 
> 
> The battle over whether he should become Batman or not was also a subtle subtext in Red Robin.
> 
> Tynion's returing the character to those same conflicts.


THIS ^^

I never quite understood the opinion that new52 Tim was *absolutely* different to pre-flashpoint Red Robin Tim. I personally never felt he was. Granted New52 Tim was much more exaggerated, (like RR Tim bumped up to 11) I'm not claiming that they are the exact same, but that  'humble personality, and quiet awkwardness' was Tim from his earlier Robin days. Red Robin Tim was much more confident in his abilities and wouldn't hesitate to rub his intelligence and wit in an enemies face if he had the upper hand, he was still undervaluing his own life and his place among the family at times, but not his capabilities. Hell this cockiness at times would mean that he would talk down to others, as he did with Steph.

This less uplifting and more cocky exterior was of course more naturally felt during the events of Tims life in pre52 when he lost his family and friends and even when he lost Robin, although I wasn't fond of the direction his character was going it did feel very natural and was still interesting and engaging as such, regardless of whether I found him likable anymore or not. So, not being too fond of Red Robin myself, when the new52 reboot came, I was hoping that his character would be taken back to his more 'Robin' personality, and as we all know it wasn't, the Red Robin personality became even stronger and even more unlikable. I thought Tynion would regress him back, being the 90s lover and such, but sadly thats not the case. Rebirth Tim isn't AS bad as new52 Tim, but he is almost just as condescending as Red Robin Tim. :/

----------


## Aahz

> Even Jean-Paul and Helena don't necessarily need their histories restored. Yeah, we lose Cry of the Huntress (a.k.a., Robin III); but really, the only lasting effects that miniseries had was Jack Drake getting out of the hospital and Tim meeting Ariana, his first girlfriend. You don't really need Helena for that. As for Jean-Paul: his major contribution to Tim's story was that he kicked Tim out of the Batcave when he became AzBats. After that, virtually nothing. Come up with an alternate reason why Tim decided to go it alone, and the Azrael backstory isn't needed anymore. 
> 
> That just leaves Stephanie, who was introduced as part of Tim's supporting cast and continued to fill that role right up to her death in War Games. Unlike Huntress and Azrael, she wasn't there merely for one event after which she went her own way; she was a continuing presence in Tim's life for the better part of his series. To the extent that her past isn't restored, there will continue to be holes in Tim's past.


Without Helena and Jean-Paul Robin III, and almost everything Knightfall related goes out of the window (including Tims training of Jean-Paul) and thats allready a good chunk of his early history, especally out side of his own series. Add Steph and another big part of his early stories are gone.
His mother being also alive is also not helping.
And dependent of what they do with Anarky and the General a few other stories are probably also gone.

----------


## Dataweaver

I mentioned Cry of the Huntress (a.k.a., Robin III), didn't I? And yeah, Knightfall is in trouble without Azrael, and that's a broader problem than just Tim's backstory: _that_ was a pivotal point in _Batman's_ history. That said, Tim can weather its loss far better than Bruce can. 

I don't consider either loss to be ideal; if both get restored, I'll be quite happy. But neither is nearly as important to Tim's history as Stephanie's history is. They're closer in importance to Tim's involvement with YJ — which is also something I'd prefer they find a way to recover, BTW.

----------


## Aahz

> I mentioned Cry of the Huntress (a.k.a., Robin III), didn't I?


Juopp I just wanted to make a complete list, but he had at least one additional Storyline with Helana, that was mostly published in Showcase and was also part of the last trade they republished (btw. I really hope they speed the publishing schedule a little up, with the current out put it will takes years to get his series complete).

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Even Jean-Paul and Helena don't necessarily need their histories restored. Yeah, we lose Cry of the Huntress (a.k.a., Robin III); but really, the only lasting effects that miniseries had was Jack Drake getting out of the hospital and Tim meeting Ariana, his first girlfriend. You don't really need Helena for that.


I can agree on this with you, anyway, hanging out with Helena,Tim did, for the first time, something without Batman approval. That served very well to form his personality. 
To me It was important and not skippable.
It's sad it's no longer in canon cause Tim relationship with Helena was one of the things that contribute to include both among my favourite characters.

----------


## KrustyKid

> THIS ^^
> 
> I never quite understood the opinion that new52 Tim was *absolutely* different to pre-flashpoint Red Robin Tim. I personally never felt he was. Granted New52 Tim was much more exaggerated, (like RR Tim bumped up to 11) I'm not claiming that they are the exact same, but that  'humble personality, and quiet awkwardness' was Tim from his earlier Robin days. Red Robin Tim was much more confident in his abilities and wouldn't hesitate to rub his intelligence and wit in an enemies face if he had the upper hand, he was still undervaluing his own life and his place among the family at times, but not his capabilities. Hell this cockiness at times would mean that he would talk down to others, as he did with Steph.
> 
> This less uplifting and more cocky exterior was of course more naturally felt during the events of Tims life in pre52 when he lost his family and friends and even when he lost Robin, although I wasn't fond of the direction his character was going it did feel very natural and was still interesting and engaging as such, regardless of whether I found him likable anymore or not. So, not being too fond of Red Robin myself, when the new52 reboot came, I was hoping that his character would be taken back to his more 'Robin' personality, and as we all know it wasn't, the Red Robin personality became even stronger and even more unlikable. I thought Tynion would regress him back, being the 90s lover and such, but sadly thats not the case. Rebirth Tim isn't AS bad as new52 Tim, but he is almost just as condescending as Red Robin Tim. :/


Seems accurate to me.

----------


## Assam

Credit where its due to Tynion, he's a lot more honest about oddities in his book than most creators. 

Here, the reason why we got the current _eh_ Red Robin suit, as opposed to the Pre-Flashpoint one. 

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...89565246439424

----------


## adrikito

> Credit where its due to Tynion, he's a lot more honest about oddities in his book than most creators. 
> 
> Here, the reason why we got the current _eh_ Red Robin suit, as opposed to the Pre-Flashpoint one. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...89565246439424


I liked the pre-flashpoint Red Robin costume.. what a shame..

----------


## josai21

I think...after Tynion finishes this arc...

Tim needs a solo.

Written by someone other than Tynion. 

Honestly wouldn't mind Fabnic or Yost coming back to write him...

----------


## RedBird

> Credit where its due to Tynion, he's a lot more honest about oddities in his book than most creators. 
> 
> Here, the reason why we got the current _eh_ Red Robin suit, as opposed to the Pre-Flashpoint one. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...89565246439424


I appreciate the honesty and communication with readers, HOWEVER, that being said, If the idea was to give Tim a costume that hasn't already been worn (and looked the same) by like two other Robins thats fine with me, I wasn't that enthusiastic about the preflash RR suit, but I'm not quite sure simply sticking another R on Tims suit was enough to make it feel like its own identity. Should we expect a new outfit by the end of this arc?

----------


## Aioros22

Especially since he would be the third character to use it.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I think...after Tynion finishes this arc...
> 
> Tim needs a solo.
> 
> Written by someone other than Tynion. 
> 
> Honestly wouldn't mind Fabnic or Yost coming back to write him...


I think he has been needing a solo since the n52. But agreed.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I think...after Tynion finishes this arc...
> 
> Tim needs a solo.
> 
> Written by someone other than Tynion. 
> 
> Honestly wouldn't mind Fabnic or Yost coming back to write him...


Chuck Dixon

----------


## millernumber1

> Chuck Dixon


Freaking co-signed!

----------


## Assam

A Tim solo wouldn't make me excited, but I'd definitely still read it. (Assuming it was good) 




> Chuck Dixon


Ehhhhhh. I know, I know, separate the creator from their work but I just wouldn't feel right supporting him. I'd prefer Yost or FabNic. Or Peter David, but f**k, he's never coming back to DC.

----------


## sakuyamons

> A Tim solo wouldn't make me excited, but I'd definitely still read it. (Assuming it was good) 
> 
> 
> 
> Ehhhhhh. I know, I know, separate the creator from their work but I just wouldn't feel right supporting him. I'd prefer Yost or FabNic. Or Peter David, but f**k, he's never coming back to DC.


Well, I feel he is *less* bad than others *cough* EVS *cough* but I’d feel conflicted as well.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Freaking co-signed!


Third.   I'd love that.

----------


## Jadeb

> I think...after Tynion finishes this arc...
> 
> Tim needs a solo.
> 
> Written by someone other than Tynion. 
> 
> Honestly wouldn't mind Fabnic or Yost coming back to write him...


I was super excited by the first pages of 'Tec, but as soon as the recap material concludes, Tim the smug super hacker is back. Now he can even hack Kryptonian tech. And that's the underlying problem: Even if all of Tim's origin issues are ironed out, as long as he's only appearing under Tynion's pen, the character will remain fundamentally broken.

If Tynion didn't profess such love for Tim, I'd think he was trolling us.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I was super excited by the first pages of 'Tec, but as soon as the recap material concludes, Tim the smug super hacker is back. Now he can even hack Kryptonian tech. And that's the underlying problem: Even if all of Tim's origin issues are ironed out, as long as he's only appearing under Tynion's pen, the character will remain fundamentally broken.
> 
> If Tynion didn't profess such love for Tim, I'd think he was trolling us.


I think that Tynion is like “I love seeing my favorite character being awesome” and taking it up to eleven.

----------


## Alycat

A Tim solo by Tynion would be insufferable. Heck we don't even need Batman with hacker teen around. He would team up with Tynion's awful Steph and tell Bruce he's doing it wrong.

----------


## Jadeb

> I think that Tynion is like “I love seeing my favorite character being awesome” and taking it up to eleven.


I assumed that at first, but now I'm beginning to wonder. If you really care about a character, wouldn't you want to give them something interesting to do? It's downright lazy to have a character constantly solve problems by pressing a button on his sleeve.

----------


## Assam

> I assumed that at first, but now I'm beginning to wonder. If you really care about a character, wouldn't you want to give them something interesting to do? It's downright lazy to have a character constantly solve problems by pressing a button on his sleeve.


Tynion _does_ think this is cool and impressive though, and that's part of the problem.

----------


## Jadeb

> Tynion _does_ think this is cool and impressive though, and that's part of the problem.


You'd think even he'd be bored with it by now. Tim's become a one-trick pony.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ehhhhhh. I know, I know, separate the creator from their work but I just wouldn't feel right supporting him. I'd prefer Yost or FabNic. Or Peter David, but f**k, he's never coming back to DC.


Well, I'm pretty much the opposite - I have to separate the creator/their politics from the work 90% of the time if I want to buy anything, and Dixon would be at least somewhat of a difference.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I'm pretty much the opposite - I have to separate the creator/their politics from the work 90% of the time if I want to buy anything, and Dixon would be at least somewhat of a difference.


If you'd rather discuss this in PM'sor not at all I totally get it (It certainly doesn't have a place in this thread)  but since a few months ago with the most recent EVS scandal where I learned you were Conservative, I've found some views you've expressed toward books interesting given that. If you wouldn't mind, I'd actually really like to know what leftist ideas you disagree with.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you'd rather discuss this in PM'sor not at all I totally get it (It certainly doesn't have a place in this thread)  but since a few months ago with the most recent EVS scandal where I learned you were Conservative, I've found some views you've expressed toward books interesting given that. If you wouldn't mind, I'd actually really like to know what leftist ideas you disagree with.


Sure, I have sent a PM.

----------


## sakuyamons

> You'd think even he'd be bored with it by now. Tim's become a one-trick pony.


He needs his solo so he can “calm down” about hacking and more interacting with heroes.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

I think a Tim solo written by Tynion would be the worst thing to happen to Tim. I don't doubt that he loves the character and would bring a lot of passion to the project but his idea of character development for Tim seems to be "hack increasingly preposterous things". I think @Assam was right when they said Tynion thinks the hacking is cool and impressive.

----------


## millernumber1

I'm in the middle of a video essay explaining why this characterization for Sherlock makes the Sherlock television series not very good (which I completely agree with), and I think it's also true of Tynion's Tim. I'm a much less plot-based reader, so I am not quite as bothered by the superhacking, but I do think it makes the stories much less durable - I think they won't be remembered as fondly as stories with stronger plotting, though the characterization hopefully keeps people like me happy.

----------


## josai21

Tim is an M. Shymalan movie.

When written well with the proper setup and twist he is awesome (Ex: the Village, Tim beating Ras)

When bad he's the appearance of the character without the essence (Avatar TLA movie, Lobdells Titans)

----------


## sakuyamons

> I'm in the middle of a video essay explaining why this characterization for Sherlock makes the Sherlock television series not very good (which I completely agree with), and I think it's also true of Tynion's Tim. I'm a much less plot-based reader, so I am not quite as bothered by the superhacking, but I do think it makes the stories much less durable - I think they won't be remembered as fondly as stories with stronger plotting, though the characterization hopefully keeps people like me happy.


I love that video essay, and thinking about it...you’re right. Though I’d say Tim even as Tymion is more tolerable than Sherlock.

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #967 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:

Screenshot_20170928-133914.jpg

----------


## sakuyamons

> Detective Comics #967 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> Screenshot_20170928-133914.jpg


Can I quote a vine? Because I will 

MISTER TIM? MISTER TIM?? OH MY GOD HE F***** DEAD!

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Tynion loves Tim with no doubt, anyhow his Tim is bland, boring and bad written. Only Lobdell's Tim is worse.
I'm not really sure Tynion is a good writer in general, his stories are flat, neither good or bad. Both eternal titles and his Detective run are readable although forgettable.
I wouldn't be happy to have the relaunch of my favourite character written by him.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion loves Tim with no doubt, anyhow his Tim is bland, boring and bad written. Only Lobdell's Tim is worse.
> I'm not really sure Tynion is a good writer in general, his stories are flat, neither good or bad. Both eternal titles and his Detective run are readable although forgettable.
> I wouldn't be happy to have the relaunch of my favourite character written by him.


Well, as someone who has had two favorite character relaunches written by him, I'd say that him doing it is better than the character continuing to be dead or not exist.  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

I think Tynion is growing as a writer and he might be quite good some day – if not already, but agreed that I’d like Tim’s solo to be written by someone else.

----------


## Assam

sonia liao.jpg

By Sonia Liao

Even if you don't ship them  (I don't), you've still got to appreciate the effort that went into this.

----------


## adrikito

> Detective Comics #967 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> Screenshot_20170928-133914.jpg


I saw the image in Tynion twitter today..

No matter... We can use the Lazarus Pits..  :Wink:

----------


## TheCape

> THIS ^^
> 
> I never quite understood the opinion that new52 Tim was absolutely different to pre-flashpoint Red Robin Tim. I personally never felt he was. Granted New52 Tim was much more exaggerated, (like RR Tim bumped up to 11) I'm not claiming that they are the exact same, but that 'humble personality, and quiet awkwardness' was Tim from his earlier Robin days. Red Robin Tim was much more confident in his abilities and wouldn't hesitate to rub his intelligence and wit in an enemies face if he had the upper hand, he was still undervaluing his own life and his place among the family at times, but not his capabilities. Hell this cockiness at times would mean that he would talk down to others, as he did with Steph.
> 
> This less uplifting and more cocky exterior was of course more naturally felt during the events of Tims life in pre52 when he lost his family and friends and even when he lost Robin, although I wasn't fond of the direction his character was going it did feel very natural and was still interesting and engaging as such, regardless of whether I found him likable anymore or not. So, not being too fond of Red Robin myself, when the new52 reboot came, I was hoping that his character would be taken back to his more 'Robin' personality, and as we all know it wasn't, the Red Robin personality became even stronger and even more unlikable. I thought Tynion would regress him back, being the 90s lover and such, but sadly thats not the case. Rebirth Tim isn't AS bad as new52 Tim, but he is almost just as condescending as Red Robin Tim. :/


Man, that Red Robin solo brings a lot of complicated feelings on me, for one side, it was my really first run with the characther (before that i just read some tie in in a couple of arcs) so there is a nostalgic value there, i still mantain that the direction was interesting, mostly organic and a solid read overall, but at the same time is kind of a big change that made his characther into something that he wasn't originally mean to be. I miss a lot Tim inner monologues, specially the ones with self-depreciative humor that he has, because of the "what i'm doing with my life" vibe that i get from it (something that a young man like myself finds very relatable). 
That being said, i don't think that Rebirth Tim is that bad with his arrogance, so far he has been cocky toward his enemies only, but hasn't treated his ally badly (granted maybe is because he hasn't interact with many of then beyond Bruce and Steph).

----------


## millernumber1

> Man, that Red Robin solo brings a lot of complicated feelings on me, for one side, it was my really first run with the characther (before that i just read some tie in in a couple of arcs) so there is a nostalgic value there, i still mantain that the direction was interesting, mostly organic and a solid read overall, but at the same time is kind of a big change that made his characther into something that he wasn't originally mean to be. I miss a lot Tim inner monologues, specially the ones with self-depreciative humor that he has, because of the "what i'm doing with my life" vibe that i get from it (something that a young man like myself finds very relatable). 
> That being said, i don't think that Rebirth Tim is that bad with his arrogance, so far he has been cocky toward his enemies only, but hasn't treated his ally badly (granted maybe is because he hasn't interact with many of then beyond Bruce and Steph).


Agreed. I think the arrogance is a bit grating - but to me, Tim has always had an element of grating to his character, because of the way he treated those who didn't know his secret identity (Helena, Steph, even Oracle for a little while).

----------


## twincast

Tynion _can_ write, cf. The Woods. After some contemplation I believe the problem squarely lies with a blind hero worship of Johns and particularly Snyder (whom he credits for his DC career and thus the chance to write this dream book of his). His Detective Comics _is_ consistently among the most enjoyable Rebirth books and almost every underwhelming aspect (namely of Tim, Steph, Cass/David Cain, and J.P./St. Dumas) can be tracked back to an abysmal Eternal core on which he's layering pre-Nu52 stuff back on.

----------


## Frontier

> sonia liao.jpg
> 
> By Sonia Liao
> 
> Even if you don't ship them  (I don't), you've still got to appreciate the effort that went into this.


So from the top left down to the right: 

- Alfred

- Bruce 

- Cass

- Dick 

- Damian 

- Steph

- Jason

- Cassie

- Lois/Diana?

- Clark

- Lex

- Mercy

- Bart in the middle?

----------


## Assam

> So from the top left down to the right: 
> 
> - Alfred
> 
> - Bruce 
> 
> - Cass
> 
> - Dick 
> ...


Oooooh, so close. Cassie being there WOULD make sense, but no, according to the artist, and as evidenced by their phone case, that's Kara.

----------


## Frontier

> Oooooh, so close. Cassie being there WOULD make sense, but no, according to the artist, and as evidenced by their phone case, that's Kara.


Dang, Kara was my first guess but the WW-esque bracelets threw me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## sakuyamons

> Dang, Kara was my first guess but the WW-esque bracelets threw me .


Cassie is busy having a date with Arrowette  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## DJ1107

So with Tim backstory restored to it's proper status. What exactly is the fate of his Parents? Identity Crisis obviously never happened so Jack is probably alive yet if he is it's kinda worrisome on both sides regarding Tim's Not-Death.

----------


## sakuyamons

> So with Tim backstory restored to it's proper status. What exactly is the fate of his Parents? Identity Crisis obviously never happened so Jack is probably alive yet if he is it's kinda worrisome on both sides regarding Tim's Not-Death.


Is eternal still in continuity? 

(Also, we reached 300 pages!)

----------


## Caivu

> Is eternal still in continuity?


Yes. Anything not clearly stated otherwise is (plus, it would impact too many things).

----------


## DJ1107

> Is eternal still in continuity? 
> 
> (Also, we reached 300 pages!)


Haven't read all of B&R eternal but it has to be given Cassandra whole Orphan thing & Jean-Paul Valley being alive. Why is Jack dead in that?

----------


## KrustyKid

In regards to Batwoman #6, anyone else think the reason Batman/Tim didn't respond to their(Kate/Jason's) warning shots was because he was imprisoned like current Tim?

----------


## godisawesome

> Credit where its due to Tynion, he's a lot more honest about oddities in his book than most creators. 
> 
> Here, the reason why we got the current _eh_ Red Robin suit, as opposed to the Pre-Flashpoint one. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...89565246439424


That reminds me of how my friend I podcast with has his favorite Robin as Carrie Kelly, and keeps saying he thinks that she'd be the best Robin for the DCEU because that's the respect he gives DKR. I get that the design premiered in a massively popular story, but the suit was on a minor supporting character and barely featured, while Tim had it for 25 issues of a successful comic that was in continuity. It's Tim's suit now.




> Man, that Red Robin solo brings a lot of complicated feelings on me, for one side, it was my really first run with the characther (before that i just read some tie in in a couple of arcs) so there is a nostalgic value there, i still mantain that the direction was interesting, mostly organic and a solid read overall, but at the same time is kind of a big change that made his characther into something that he wasn't originally mean to be. I miss a lot Tim inner monologues, specially the ones with self-depreciative humor that he has, because of the "what i'm doing with my life" vibe that i get from it (something that a young man like myself finds very relatable). 
> That being said, i don't think that Rebirth Tim is that bad with his arrogance, so far he has been cocky toward his enemies only, but hasn't treated his ally badly (granted maybe is because he hasn't interact with many of then beyond Bruce and Steph).


I think the fall of the Lobdell-penned New 52 Tim Drake really highlights how important context is in serialized comics, especially when combined with varying skill levels in writing. The initial few issues of N52 TT *did* seem to roughly follow the Red Robin series in Tim's portrayal... albeit while also demonstrating that FabNic > Lobdell. But at least initially, that lapse in skill level wasn't really bad; the true depths of a half-@$$ed writing style would only appear after the Culling. The real issue brought on by changing Tim's history was how it recontextualized the way Lobdell's Tim was portrayed and scene:

- Pre-Flashpoint Tim was a bit brash about some things, and a little cocky, but his pride was rooted in a long, successful career as Robin from which he's graduated, and he was in a book that generally strove to portray him as having good perspective and awareness of his mistakes, all while still being smart.
- Take away that backstory, and lower the writing skill, and suddenly Tim's not cocky but arrogant; not humanly flawed, but smugly irritating.
- Pre-Flashpoint Tim was smart, but in a clever and cunning way. As FabNic said, he's hard to write for because "clever" requires pre-planning for both the hero and the villain; make the badguy's intelligence badly written, and the hero's victory loses some panache; make the hero's plans stupid, and, well, he's stupid.
- Lobdell's villains were badly written. And his Tim was stupid.

Tynion does seem to be suffering from a lack of pre planning for Tim's cleverness, that is apparent in how redundant and unimaginative Tim's hacking of Oz's stuff is. He also may just have some of the issues some writers have with characters they love, sense creative impulses can sometimes be overrun by admiration. But hey! He's still better for Tim than Lobdell, and since he's still a comparatively young journeyman writer who's still maturing, and he uses a modern style, I'll give him more room than a more veteran but still unexemplary Marvel writer with a very 90's style.

But I'd still mark out like a WWE meme for a FabNic-penned Red Robin book.

----------


## Alycat

> So with Tim backstory restored to it's proper status. What exactly is the fate of his Parents? Identity Crisis obviously never happened so Jack is probably alive yet if he is it's kinda worrisome on both sides regarding Tim's Not-Death.


His parents might as well be dead for all of the importance they get.

----------


## godisawesome

Which is why it's so important that they address the change directly. We need to know what's up with the change; if it's been planned for a while, then they need to address what the purpose of referencing the N52 Origin was for.

----------


## Caivu

> In regards to Batwoman #6, anyone else think the reason Batman/Tim didn't respond to their(Kate/Jason's) warning shots was because he was imprisoned like current Tim?


Do you mean that the Tim Batman in #965 is really that future's Batman? I hadn't considered that. 

There's a hole in that idea, since Tynion said in an interview that this Tim Batman is going to arrive in present-day Gotham, meaning the others will almost certainly know he's there.

----------


## Assam

> Do you mean that the Tim Batman in #965 is really that future's Batman? I hadn't considered that. 
> 
> There's a hole in that idea, since Tynion said in an interview that this Tim Batman is going to arrive in present-day Gotham, meaning the others will almost certainly know he's there.


I'm fairly certain there are currently 4 Tim's. RebirthTim, TimBeyond, Tim of Tomorrow, and EvilBatTim.

----------


## sakuyamons

> I'm fairly certain there are currently 4 Tim's. RebirthTim, TimBeyond, Tim of Tomorrow, and EvilBatTim.




https://youtu.be/4iyOkFLuoBc

----------


## Assam

> https://youtu.be/4iyOkFLuoBc


HA! 

Also




> I'm fairly certain there are currently 4 Tim's.


AKA Fergus' worst nightmare  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm fairly certain there are currently 4 Tim's. RebirthTim, TimBeyond, Tim of Tomorrow, and EvilBatTim.


Holy Timception!

----------


## KrustyKid

> *Do you mean that the Tim Batman in #965 is really that future's Batman? I hadn't considered that*. 
> 
> There's a hole in that idea, since Tynion said in an interview that this Tim Batman is going to arrive in present-day Gotham, meaning the others will almost certainly know he's there.


Yep, that's what I meant.

True, Tim/Batman will follow Tim back to the present. But that doesn't mean he isn't from the future, basically a timeline jump if you will. If Tim/Batman is from the same timeline as the Kate we saw in BW#6, perhaps he'll try to find a way back to his own timeline at some point?

The possibility of this came to mind because of the fact both Kate and Jason were notably surprised that Tim/Batman didn't retaliate in light of their 'warning shots'. One could argue the reason he didn't was because he was stuck in Mr. Oz's prison :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

This might be important:

Screenshot_20170929-001754.jpg

----------


## josai21

> This might be important:
> 
> Attachment 55342


I'd crap bricks if that actually happened.

Ryan Potter at Tim Drake? Yes please

----------


## scary harpy

As far as I understand, Dr. Manhattan brought:

Jor-El here to mess with SupermanBat-Tim here to mess with Tim DrakeDoomsday here to ???


Am I missing something? Anyone have other information?

----------


## adrikito

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THE 300 pages of Appreciation..

----------


## fanfan13

> This might be important:
> 
> Attachment 55342


oh wow so Tim will actually be in DCEU?

----------


## Alycat

> oh wow so Tim will actually be in DCEU?


I don't have faith that it won't implode by the time they get to that point. It does make sense to bring in Tim though. Dick is Nightwing, Jason as  Red Hood is obvious. Let Tim get his turn rightfully.

----------


## Aahz

> Is eternal still in continuity?


It is general very unlikely that they kick any big new 52 events out of the canon. They are mostly just reconnecting stuff back in that happened, before the start of the of the new 52 and maybe a few smaller details. 

The only storyline they might have to retcon in some way is Zero Year, since there are some things (like the age Duke in the main story or of most of the other Batkids in the tie ins) that will make no sense if they go back to a something like a 15 year time line.

----------


## twincast

> It is general very unlikely that they kick any big new 52 events out of the canon. They are mostly just reconnecting stuff back in that happened, before the start of the of the new 52 and maybe a few smaller details.


Well, let's look at the Superman side of things to get an idea: If I remember the spreads of the merged Kents' history correctly, all the Superman-specific big stuff in continuity right before Flashpoint other than New Krypton (*shrug*) and his young spin-offs (*rage*) is back while all but his New 52 origin, his romance with Wonder Woman, his "unmasking" (well, not entirely sure about this one as we need a new reason for fake Clark's deception working and actually being of use, but obviously Lois now can't have been the one to have written that exposé) and his death are staying from post-FP. Also note how the given reasons for Henshaw's re-Cyborg-ification after having successfully escaped that fate will likely never be referenced as such again. (Which of course poses the questions: Has the origin of Superlana's powers been explained since then? And is there any chance of them bringing Kon-El - let alone Matrix - back in the present environment?)

Anyway, yes, as far as the rough strokes go, all the big New 52 Batman stuff is likely to stay. The question lies with the details. I may harbor severe disdain for all things Eternal, but as far as the main plots go, I'm ready to shrug and move on. The problem lies with them also including Snyder-fied inferior and much more recent origin stories for Steph, Cass and Jean-Paul while Snyder is still (somehow) a heavy-weight at DC and the writer currently in charge of these characters a devout fanboy of his. Which is even more grating as frankly the stories work just as well without Stephanie's parents being monsters, St. Dumas a ludicrous pseudo-intellectual mockery, and either of the two heroes rookies. Cassandra and David Cain, though? Well, you could cut them out completely (which they won't) without losing anything long-term, but you can't really change them and still have their participation make any sense at all. (-_-)

----------


## Aahz

> Well, let's look at the Superman side of things to get an idea: If I remember the spreads of the merged Kents' history correctly, all the Superman-specific big stuff in continuity right before Flashpoint other than New Krypton (*shrug*) and his young spin-offs (*rage*) is back while all but his New 52 origin, his "unmasking" and his death are staying from post-FP. Also note how the given reasons for Henshaw's re-Cyborg-ification after having successfully escaped that fate will likely never be referenced as such again. (Which of course poses the questions: Has the origin of Superlana's powers been explained since then? And is there any chance of them bringing Kon-El - let alone Matrix - back in the present environment?)


Batman isn't Superman, he was (oposed to some of the other Batfamily members) hardly changed by the new 52, and therefore you will probably not see something like they did with Superman franchise.

----------


## twincast

> Batman isn't Superman, he was (oposed to some of the other Batfamily members) hardly changed by the new 52, and therefore you will probably not see something like they did with Superman franchise.


Of course you won't see a drawn-out in-story merging of two distinct characters, but pretty much every big New Earth Batman story (other than Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive, I think) has been vaguely referenced since Flashpoint. The problem being that you can't look at them too closely without continuity falling utterly apart precisely because of the participation of said Batfamily members. If the latter were to get fixed (you know, the actual point of my post), the former could be reintroduced pretty much fully. Well, and Zero Year's needless existence messes with stuff early in Batman's career as well, but nothing too big in the grand scheme of things.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, and Zero Year's needless existence messes with stuff early in Batman's career as well, but nothing too big in the grand scheme of things.


The big problem with zero year is that it is basically Dukes origin story. If you shift that 10 year back on the time line there is now way that that he can still be a teenager. And at least the RHaTO tie in and the one featuring Harper Row have a similar problem. 
Btw. I just realised that B&RE has actually a similar problem, since the flash backs (and therefore the death of Harpers Mother) are placed in Dicks career as Robin (and iirc even somewhere in the beginning), which would also screw up Cass and Harpers ages (even if Cass should be based on pre flashpoint comics anyway be older than she is now).

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

I reading for the first time in my life the Jon Lewis run and man, what i hear was true, the villains are really weird. But hid Steph is pretty fun and the Tim/Steph relationship is enjoyable.

----------


## millernumber1

> I reading for the first time in my life the Jon Lewis run and man, what i hear was true, the villains are really weird. But hid Steph is pretty fun and the Tim/Steph relationship is enjoyable.


I agree. It got a little cliched for me sometimes, but she was a solid supporting character, and Tim's attitude towards her was very nice.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I'd crap bricks if that actually happened.
> 
> Ryan Potter at Tim Drake? Yes please


Well it could be either Tim or Damian but i'd be glad if his campaigning would pay off.

----------


## TheCape

Sorry for this post, i make a mistake. I don't know how to fix it.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_o13tn6eTE91rd2c91_540.jpg
A fitting punishment  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## failo.legendkiller

Multiverse, time travel, characters from alternate future etc etc. I always preferred Batman franchise cause these kind of issues were sporadic and less prominent. 
Geoff Johns is abusing of it and these seem to be the guidelines for the entire DC Universe and the Rebirth event.
Tim of Tomorrow, I really didn't care at time and I really don't care now (Tynyon liked it so much to propose him again!), Tim the smartest boy in the world hacking everything in a second with a single button in his glow, I really don't care for.

Goodheart boy, everyone's friend, humble but determined and loyal, spending a relatable life, having normal problems and relationships. That's the Tim Drake I remember and I need to have back.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Multiverse, time travel, characters from alternate future etc etc. I always preferred Batman franchise cause these kind of issues were sporadic and less prominent. 
> Geoff Johns is abusing of it and these seem to be the guidelines for the entire DC Universe and the Rebirth event.
> Tim of Tomorrow, I really didn't care at time and I really don't care now (Tynyon liked it so much to propose him again!), Tim the smartest boy in the world hacking everything in a second with a single button in his glow, I really don't care for.
> 
> Goodheart boy, everyone's friend, humble but determined and loyal, spending a relatable life, having normal problems and relationships. That's the Tim Drake I remember and I need to have back.


I hate the multiverse.

I miss "every man" Tim as well, but he was still pretty smart then too, just not as outwardly confident.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I hate the multiverse.
> 
> I miss "every man" Tim as well, but he was still pretty smart then too, *just not as outwardly confident*.


That makes all the difference in the world!

----------


## TheCape

images.jpg
I just thought that this was funny.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> images.jpg
> I just thought that this was funny.


I love that issue.

----------


## Assam

Kelly's run on Superboy was so good.

----------


## godisawesome

I know, right!?!!?!

That issue highlights my favorite use of Tim in regards to comedy: as a straight man to the crazy stuff going on around him. Just the way he sighs at Superboy begging for him to certify whether or not Cass is hot before just answering quietly "she's on fire." Perfect.

----------


## Sardorim

Tim being protective of Cass like family or something more?

He always seemed to have an attraction to her but it never went anywhere.

----------


## TheCape

Based on that time when she used Barbara costume, he probably had an sligth crush on her and they personality kind of complement eacth other, but i don't remenber if Cassandra ever showed interest on him (except for that certain time that won't be name).

----------


## Assam

> Tim being protective of Cass like family or something more?
> 
> He always seemed to have an attraction to her but it never went anywhere.





> Based on that time when she used Barbara costume, he probably had an sligth crush on her and they personality kind of complement eacth other, but i don't remenber if Cassandra ever showed interest on him (except for that certain time that won't be name).


Yeah, besides Tim's reaction to Cass in Babs' suit (and his response to Kon who wanted to know "if [Cass] was hot]" that she was on fire) the only real instance of romantic feelings between the two is the AU future story by Damion Scott (Cass's co-creator) from Solo where the two are a couple. In general, their relationship was always one of siblings. Siblings who were very close, and who also complemented and contrasted each other really well.

----------


## Alycat

People also take that Gates of Gotham moment as potentially romantic. I won't even lie though, I like the idea of Tim/Cass. I love them working together and tbh I think it has more potential than Tim/Steph.

----------


## josai21

Tim plus Cass = the perfect heir to Bruce. Tim is potentially more intelligent than Bruce. Cass is potentially a better fighter than Bruce.

----------


## TheCape

aVPdOq2_700b.jpg
Man, i like all the Robins and i have no problem with Jason and Tim friendship, but this is funny.

----------


## Assam

> People also take that Gates of Gotham moment as potentially romantic. I won't even lie though, I like the idea of Tim/Cass. I love them working together and tbh I think it has more potential than Tim/Steph.


I still don't like Tim with either of them romantically. Ariana is my favorite love interest he's had, followed by Tam. However, in terms of just working together? Yes,  I do agree that Tim and Cass's dynamic is more interesting...of course I feel that because of how complex and unique she is, Cass creates a very interesting dynamic with _everyone_ (Obviously when properly written I mean) but yeah. 




> Tim plus Cass = the perfect heir to Bruce. Tim is potentially more intelligent than Bruce. Cass is potentially a better fighter than Bruce.


You're not the first to point that out, and it isn't any less true now. Of course, what a lot of people who say this sometimes forget is that this was Bruce's canonical plan. The reason the aweomse and tragically underutilized concept of "Bludhaven's Dynamic Duo" was put into effect was because Bruce planned on having Tim and Cass as his successors and wanted them to help each other improve in the areas they struggled in. Now this was right after War Games so Tim _really_ didn't want to become Batman at this point, but that just made the whole thing more interesting.

----------


## Alycat

> I still don't like Tim with either of them romantically. Ariana is my favorite love interest he's had, followed by Tam. However, in terms of just working together? Yes,  I do agree that Tim and Cass's dynamic is more interesting...of course I feel that because of how complex and unique she is, Cass creates a very interesting dynamic with _everyone_ (Obviously when properly written I mean) but yeah.


Yeah, I would also just be fine with them working together and just being platonic. I was also a big fan of Tim/Tam. Tim with a  civilian girlfriend works for me. I also really liked Tam. She had reasonable reactions to all the nonsense going on. When is she coming back DC?????

----------


## TheCape

I actually like the idea more than Damian being the sucessor. Not because i dislike him or anything, i just find this as a more creative and interesting idea. 
In another note, i think that Cass is the only girl that Tim hasn't been a jerk  :EEK!:

----------


## Assam

> In another note, i think that Cass is the only girl that Tim hasn't been a jerk


Well early on, Tim was apprehensive about working with Cass, more than a little intimidated by her, and that made him act like a bit of a dick toward her, but once he got past that? Yeah, pretty much. He also wasn't a jerk to Cassie Sandsmark...in Young Justice at least, but that got ruined in TT.

EDIT: He also wasn't a jerk to the other YJ girls. _Maybe_ Secret you could say, but his poor treatment of her was at least unintentional.

----------


## TheCape

You know, althought i don't have a problem with civilian girlfriends (in some cases like Spider-Man i actually agaisnt him dating a costumed woman), specially for Tim, but for some reason i don't want it to be Ariana, nothing agaisnt her, just that the idea of they going back together never sounded appealing to me.

----------


## Alycat

Which is why is should be Tam. Let other Fox family members be important. I'm also cool with none of the boys being Bruce's successor. Dick and Jason don't want it and Damian is too predictable. I think part of Damian's character growth is breaking away from all the things that defined his birth including being Batman. Tim is better off without the Batman drama as well.

----------


## sakuyamons

So, Tim is returning just in time for a wedding  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat family by Afterlife

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_ntgoqhV0yn1sb3jn7_500.jpg
a60ccba9a40072969440195fb29ec304.jpg
batman-dick-grayson-rescues-red-robin-3.jpg
"You are my brother Dick, you always would he there for me".

----------


## KrustyKid

> Bat family by Afterlife


That's some good art there. I particularly like how Steph is drawn here.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_np8x6zBPdq1s81zze_540.jpg
Wally is the one monologing.

----------


## KrustyKid

I want the real Bart back

----------


## TheCape

We all want that, but who knows if the flash family would come back some day.

----------


## Assam

> I want the real Bart back


I miss him every day. There's no character missing right now (with a chance of returning) that I want back more. 

bart and max.jpg

(Just putting this hear cause it still gets me misty eyed every time)

----------


## TruthAndJustice

My hope is that he's in the 31st century with the Legion. Since we already have another Kid Flash I wouldn't mind him going back to calling himself "Impulse."

----------


## KrustyKid

> My hope is that he's in the 31st century with the Legion. Since we already have another Kid Flash I wouldn't mind him going back to calling himself "Impulse."


I'm with you 100%, Impulse is the way to go.

----------


## Assam

> I'm with you 100%, Impulse is the way to go.


ImpulseBart is the only Bart that matters...well, ImpulseBart and my headcanon future where he's the "Mercury" to Irey's Flash.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Honestly, blocking Bart from being Kid Flash again may be the best thing to come out of NuWally's existence. 

(Also, if we REALLY are getting Kon and Bart back soon, I eagerly await all the fluffy fanart that will be drawn in response.  :Smile:  )

----------


## KrustyKid

> ImpulseBart is the only Bart that matters...well, ImpulseBart and my headcanon future where he's the "Mercury" to Irey's Flash. 
> 
> Honestly, blocking Bart from being Kid Flash again may be the best thing to come out of NuWally's existence. 
> 
> (Also, if we REALLY are getting Kon and Bart back soon, I eagerly await all the fluffy fanart that will be drawn in response.  )


That makes the two of us.

----------


## RedBird

Sorry if I'm late to this subject, but this is news to me. 

_"Superboy: Conner Kent Will Return to DC Universe in Detective Comics"
"A Lonely Place of Living" may feature more than just the return of Tim Drake, according to James Tynion IV._

I mean I suspected as much but it would still be great to see confirmed.

----------


## godisawesome

Man, do I hope he's not just latched onto internet speculation for a little extra publicity...

Then again, if he has Tomorrow Tim as a major character, than would it really hurt that much to have Superboy show up, since that's a massive Johns Titans reference?

----------


## gwhh

Intersting:

https://instagram.com/p/BWd317IgQe6/

https://instagram.com/p/BYbRhutjcNb/

----------


## TheCape

From Tim's rogues galery, who of then do you think as his nemesis?

----------


## scary harpy

> From Tim's rogues galery, who of then do you think as his nemesis?


Ulysses Hadrian Armstrong is the first name that springs to mind. With a name like that, he doesn't need a code name.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> From Tim's rogues galery, who of then do you think as his nemesis?


Damian  :Big Grin:    I always though Anarky was a good one for Tim as they were both pretty smart.

----------


## TheCape

Well, i can swear that Lonnie and Tim had some sort of rilvary in the 90s, but to my understanding, he was never really a villain.

----------


## godisawesome

> From Tim's rogues galery, who of then do you think as his nemesis?


As Scary Harpy said, Armstrong as the General/Anarky II is the closest to an arch nemesis Tim has in modern times, thanks to FabNic treating him as such and giving them a good foundation for a personal feud in the deaths of Armstrong's siblings, and then Tynion having Armstrong be the one responsible for Tim's defacto comic death in Rebirth.

But I'd argue that his most successful arch-nemesis previous to Armstrong is King Snake. He wa as great started villain, and he had a lot of good follow up appearances all the way up until his attempt to hijack the Kobra Cult and losing to Tim when he got his eyesight back.

----------


## shadowsgirl

King Snake and Lynx. At least they were in the 90s.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I liked these two psychopaths.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

It was Johnny Warlock in the 2000s. You know, the guy whose hand was blown off by Tim. Muhahah. He even hired Scarab and then Darla to kill Tim. Scarab killed a dozen boy and their families, but she never found Tim.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

@godisawesome
That sounds like a pretty good summary, it seems that Ulysess was in limbo after Dixon's run for a long time, up until Nicieza make him Anarchy.
King Snake was a pretty enjoyable foe, by the way i heard thst he was eventually revealed to be Bane's dad, how that went down?.

----------


## TheCape

Wow, that Johnny Warlock dude looks like a loser, i cab see why people aren't fond of that period of time.

----------


## godisawesome

> @godisawesome
> That sounds like a pretty good summary, it seems that Ulysess was in limbo after Dixon's run for a long time, up until Nicieza make him Anarchy.
> King Snake was a pretty enjoyable foe, by the way i heard thst he was eventually revealed to be Bane's dad, how that went down?.


The King Snake reveal as Bane's father was actually first hinted at way back in the Bane of the Demon story; the story lists multiple suspects, including a kindly American doctor and a British mercenary. Then in a storyline in Gotham Knights, Tabula Rasa, Bane confronts Batman about the possibility that they are brothers, since the American Doctor was Thomas Wayne, before a blood test and further investigation uncovers the King Snake connection. Bane has semi-reformed here, and ventures to the destroyed Kobra compound where King Snake last was, and in a series of strange events, ends up slaying his father, being mortally wounded, and taking a dip in the Lazarus Pit before temporarily retiring until years later with Secret Six.




> Wow, that Johnny Warlock dude looks like a loser, i cab see why people aren't fond of that period of time.


Warlock was being written mostly competently, and was functioning as an archnemisis. I think the biggest issue with him, Darla, and the Patriot was all three were supernatural characters. Tim seems to excell in the more grounded storytelling.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Lonnie Machin is my choice, anyhow King Snake and KGBeast are valid too.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Wow, that Johnny Warlock dude looks like a loser, i cab see why people aren't fond of that period of time.


Johnny Warlock was a cold-blooded killer, but Tim scared the hell out of him. After the incident with his hand, he had an irrational fear of Robin. But that doesn't change the fact that he loved to torture and kill people. After he got powers, he enjoyed the killing more, but his psychosomatic fear of Robin was too deep and strong, so he didn't have a chance against Tim.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## RedBird

augh That picking up by the hair imagery is making me cringe for real. That outta tear his scalp from his skull

acckk! Poor Tim

----------


## Assam

The only character who should be getting picked up by their hair is Bart.  :Smile: 

Also, Tim's return spiked 'Tec's sales up by about 4,000. Not too shabby.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Peacemaker was amazing.  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Do you mean that the Tim Batman in #965 is really that future's Batman? I hadn't considered that. 
> 
> There's a hole in that idea, since Tynion said in an interview that this Tim Batman is going to arrive in present-day Gotham, meaning the others will almost certainly know he's there.


Given the preview for Detective #966 it looks like my prediction that the Future Batman who was locked in the cell like current Tim is in fact the Tim/Evil/Batman from Batwoman#6.

----------


## TheCape

You know, i always wondered from where the argument being a Gary Stu came from. i mean, during his Red Robin days before the reboot, it might hold some water (even if i still don't agreed with it), and is true that the term is so overused this days that has lost any kind of meaning because fandom generalizations. But i still don't see it, in the 90s he was portrayed as having a knack for detective work, but wasn't the best fighter or the most intelligent (he actually has some problems keeping his grades ups specially during his time as Robin), Sue usually are characthers that can break the rules of the universe that they are set in, without much of an explanation or justification, but i don't think that there is any version of him that fits into that category and even when Tim might not have the same glaring flaws that Bruce and Dick, he still wasn't a perfect boy and screwed his stuff very often.

----------


## KrustyKid

> You know, i always wondered from where the argument being a Gary Stu came from. i mean, during his Red Robin days before the reboot, it might hold some water (even if i still don't agreed with it), and is true that the term is so overused this days that has lost any kind of meaning because fandom generalizations. But i still don't see it, in the 90s he was portrayed as having a knack for detective work, but wasn't the best fighter or the most intelligent (he actually has some problems keeping his grades ups specially during his time as Robin), Sue usually are characthers that can break the rules of the universe that they are set in, without much of an explanation or justification, but i don't think that there is any version of him that fits into that category and even when Tim might not have the same glaring flaws that Bruce and Dick, he still wasn't a perfect boy and screwed his stuff very often.


I agree completely. Even in Red Robin pre-flashpoint any plans Tim made rarely went as he planned. Not to mention he got his a$$ handed to him on more than one occasion in h2h(Ra's/Catman/Cricket). Tim wasn't a Gary Stu at all in my eyes. That just seemed to be a tagline Tim haters threw on him for whatever reason. Only one who is even close to touching Gary Stu levels is Batman himself, but even he has his notable flaws.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I agree completely. Even in Red Robin pre-flashpoint any plans Tim made rarely went as he planned. Not to mention he got his a$$ handed to him on more than one occasion in h2h(Ra's/Catman/Cricket). Tim wasn't a Gary Stu at all in my eyes. That just seemed to be a tagline Tim haters threw on him for whatever reason. Only one who is even close to touching Gary Stu levels is Batman himself, but even he has his notable flaws.


He's getting into Stu territory now, which is on Tynion. The "ha ha, I haxored you, just as planned!" Tim is losing his luster really fast.

----------


## Assam

So in addition to talking about Kon and Cass in his interview with Batman Universe, Tynion also confirmed that Tim WILL be back with the team in the next arc.

----------


## KrustyKid

> So in addition to talking about Kon and Cass in his interview with Batman Universe, Tynion also confirmed that Tim WILL be back with the team in the next arc.


Can't wait to see the reunion.

----------


## CPSparkles

Cass Bruce and Tim



Everything about this is so sweet aside from Tim calling Bruce Dad. He's not your father young man.

----------


## TheCape

Considering how Tim's actual parents treated him for years, i'm not surprised  :Stick Out Tongue: .
Also, i have notice that, because Tim's general dissinterest with sexual intercourse and friendship with Kon (that became a bit.... slashy after a while), people tend to think that he is a closet gay, but IMHO, i think that his feelings for boths Steph and Ariana were genuine, i think that it would be far more accurate to said that he is an asexual that is more worried about the emotional parts of the relationship, than the physical ones, it doesn't change the meaning of his interactions with 2 of his longest love interest, Tim/Kon still had a chance and asexual people get some representation. Althought, considering that Tynion is bi, maybe he would do the same for his favorite  :Big Grin: .

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim is not asexual. He is just shy and acts awkwardly around girls. Not every teenage boy is a Don Juan.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

> Tim is not asexual. He is just shy and acts awkwardly around girls. Not every teenage boy is a Don Juan.*


Oh, i'm pretty sure than that was the original intention and Dixon would never let Tim gone into the evils of teenage sex  :Smile: .
Just an idea that pop in my head during Lewis run. Also i'm probably being insensitve, but that monologue of Tim thinking "Isn't this pretty much how we ended up with Damian?" just make me chuckle :Smile:

----------


## josai21

Ugh.

Another reason to hate Lobdell.

Tim losing his virginity should have been a special plot. It should have -meant- something. 

*sigh*

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Ugh.
> 
> Another reason to hate Lobdell.
> 
> Tim losing his virginity should have been a special plot. It should have -meant- something. 
> 
> *sigh*


Should have been Steph.

----------


## Aioros22

Not every first time requires the sky to open and birds to sing, folks  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin:

----------


## josai21

> Not every first time requires the sky to open and birds to sing, folks


Not every first time requires an interdimensional demon taking control of your brain and causing you to bang a demi-goddess...

But maybe I'm just old school...


 :Cool:

----------


## shadowsgirl

1. I don't think Tim was a virgin when he slept with Cass for the first time. He was New52 Tim. He wasn't shy with girls.

2. It wasn't the first time they had sex, when Trigon took control of their brains.

So we don't know who took Tim's virginity. Maybe she was a nice, regular girl.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Should have been Steph.


Wasn’t Steph on limbo around that time?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Wasnt Steph on limbo around that time?


She certainly was.

Given how New-52 Tim was I doubt Cassie was even his first. Problem some civilian girl that happened off panel.

----------


## Magmaster12

> 1. I don't think Tim was a virgin when he slept with Cass for the first time. He was New52 Tim. He wasn't shy with girls.
> 
> 2. It wasn't the first time they had sex, when Trigon took control of their brains.
> 
> So we don't know who took Tim's virginity. Maybe she was a nice, regular girl.


But didn't the final issue of the run make it obvious that Tim and Cassie were never in any kind of a relationship?

Also why isn't anyone talking about the Stephanie Brown Convergence tie in that made it pretty clear they were doing it by the end of the issue.

----------


## KrustyKid

> But didn't the final issue of the run make it obvious that Tim and Cassie were never in any kind of a relationship?
> 
> Also why isn't anyone talking about the Stephanie Brown Convergence tie in that made it pretty clear they were doing it by the end of the issue.


The Tim/Cassie stuff is definitely something that is up to interpretation(on how far they went).

I guess no one brought up convergence since that was Pre-52 Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

On another note. Any guesses for what life is like for Cass in the future evil Tim/Batman timeline?

----------


## sakuyamons

> On another note. Any guesses for what life is like for Cass in the future evil Tim/Batman timeline?


She’s plotting his demise and leading the Bat-Rebellion.

----------


## TheCape

Obviously, she is death (much to Assam changrin :Stick Out Tongue: ), because we know that this future wouldn't have happened if she was still around  :Smile: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> She’s plotting his demise and leading the Bat-Rebellion.


That'd actually wouldn't be a bad direction. Perhaps she's involved with the League of Shadows/or Assassins in some capacity?

----------


## Assam

> Perhaps she's involved with the League of Shadows/or Assassins in some capacity?


Don't even suggest that. Seriously. NO. 




> Obviously, she is dead


I suggested it, and I've seen the idea growing traction elsewhere, but it is possible that the thing with Clayface that set Tim off was him losing control and killing Cass. 




> because we know that this future wouldn't have happened if she was still around .


Pretty much. Being totally honest, I COULD see her respecting Dick's seniority and history and let him take up the mantle before her (My biggest problem with BftC in this regard is that Cass wasn't even addressed)...but the second he was outy she would have taken it. (And even if she didn't, it's not like Tim could hack his way to victory against her)

----------


## Caivu

> I suggested it, and I've seen the idea growing traction elsewhere, but it is possible that the thing with Clayface that set Tim off was him losing control and killing Cass.


Damn, now that you mention it, that honestly sounds plausible.

----------


## Assam

> Damn, now that you mention it, that honestly sounds plausible.


Of course, as I've also mentioned, it'd be rather hollow. Since in this continuity, Cass's strongest memory of Tim, besides his death, is probably when he insulted her in BR:E, and his strongest memory of her is...I have no idea because I don't think Cass has talked directly to Tim _once._

----------


## KrustyKid

> Don't even suggest that. Seriously. NO.


You just never know, lol

----------


## TheCape

I found this interesting theory in Tumblr, i wanted to share it.
https://davidmann95.tumblr.com/post/...y-lookin-fella

----------


## CPSparkles

This



To this

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> I found this interesting theory in Tumblr, i wanted to share it.
> https://davidmann95.tumblr.com/post/...y-lookin-fella


that would be a good storyline for Tim and damian.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Timmy is dad's little helper. So cute.

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Rather than pointless rant about Cass exclusion for the umpteenth time, I'll point out how that flashback really reminds me of JL8, the webcomic where, as you'd expect, the Justice Legaue are a bunch of 8 year olds. Ones living the lives of normal kids...but still with their powers. Anyone read it? It's pretty good and addictive.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## godisawesome

Ah, Batman and sons. Always good for a laugh.

And I have to admit a love for the idea of Tim being the type to tattle, but with video evidence.

----------


## CPSparkles

Batman & Robin #20

The BatFam getting ready for movie night!

----------


## TheCape

Man, Assam make me see this story with different eyes after thinking about the movie scene.

Is still cute, in spite everything.

----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## Outside_85

> Not every first time requires the sky to open and birds to sing, folks


It would certainly make sure a lot of shy people loosing their nerves at the last moment.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Hehe

----------


## millernumber1

As part of my quest to think about "what would Steph's journey be like if she hadn't become Batgirl," I have reread Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20, which are all of Steph's appearances under the pen of Fabian Nicieza. And I have to say...all the complaints about super hacker Tim for the past several years make me wonder what people were saying back in 2008-2011. Because Nicieza's plots were really incoherent. He has Tim constantly monologuing internally about how he's planning this and that, but how in the world were any of the actions Tim took during Batman RIP and the chaos that followed actually the instigators of anything that happened. It's almost exactly like the superhacking - informed ability that Tim says he did stuff, but it's just secret knowledge hidden from the reader until the author reveals that Tim knew stuff all along, but let it happen because it was all in the plan - and then the plan just falls apart anyway.

I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything."

----------


## Dataweaver

FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling _Tim_ “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.

----------


## CPSparkles

> FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling _Tim_ “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.


You mean a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce, Dick and Jason? Ras has called all 3 Detective. Tim makes 4. Tim is a good detective but that claim isn't accurate.

----------


## TheCape

Not that i disagreed, i clearly remenber Ra's sort of calling Dick a Detective R:"Maybe apple doesn't fall far from the three" N:"i'm not like Bruce Ra's" R:"Keep telling yourself that". I'm pretty sure that he said something along the same lines to Bane and Jean Paul, but for the life of me, i can't remenber any instance when he said that to Jason (not that isn'ta good one) in the pre-flashpoint universe, i don't think that they even interacted all that much.

----------


## millernumber1

> FWIW, I wasn't keen on Fabian's depiction of Tim. My favorite part of the Red Robin series was Christopher Yost's run, issues #1–12 — everything before Fabian returned and had Tim repeat one of Batman's biggest mistakes by putting together the Hit List. It was during Yost's run that Tim earned Ras al-Ghul's respect as a worthy foe: he ended up calling _Tim_ “Detective”, a designate he had previously reserved exclusively for Bruce.


I do agree that Yost's stuff was much more mature and satisfying than FabNic. The whole "Collision" crossover was really cool, with Ra's respecting Tim (and trying to kill him), and Dick saving him.  (Another point - FabNic's writing of Damian, though understandable because Tim and Damian have a different relationship than Steph and Damian, reminds me just how much I disliked Damian when he wasn't in Steph's series.)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Not that i disagreed, i clearly remenber Ra's sort of calling Dick a Detective R:"Maybe apple doesn't fall far from the three" N:"i'm not like Bruce Ra's" R:"Keep telling yourself that". I'm pretty sure that he said something along the same lines to Bane and Jean Paul, but for the life of me, i can't remenber any instance when he said that to Jason (not that isn'ta good one) in the pre-flashpoint universe, i don't think that they even interacted all that much.


Ra's called Jason "young detective" in the New52, but I don't think it was a compliment.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything.


It has been a while since i read boths FabNic runs, but i generally agreed that of the 2 Red Robin writters, Yost was the best, but the reason of why i sort of went with the "Tim knows something that the audience doesn't know for then to fail anyway" (what happened with Amstrong's brothers is the first example that comes to mind), a theme of his run was about how far Tim was willing to go with his manipulations and scheme and what would he become (if you ask me he was going to the Tomorrow Tim route), maybe the execution is nor all that could have been and i would have prefer another writter to tackle it (some of that dialogue was soo bad), but i thougth that was at least interesting, regardless if i still find Tim likable or not.
Althougth i had come to prefer Tynion over Lodbell's take, mostly because in spite of the over the top hacking, he treats Tim as a characther and is having facing his most deepest fears and flaws, unlike in TT when he felt more like a plot device and hey at least he is self aware enougth to not write a solo with him.

----------


## TheCape

> Another point - FabNic's writing of Damian, though understandable because Tim and Damian have a different relationship than Steph and Damian, reminds me just how much I disliked Damian when he wasn't in Steph's series.)


Damian has so much bagage against Tim (and Cassandra) and vice versa, that it was impossible for then to get along, at least during that period of time.

----------


## godisawesome

> As part of my quest to think about "what would Steph's journey be like if she hadn't become Batgirl," I have reread Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20, which are all of Steph's appearances under the pen of Fabian Nicieza. And I have to say...all the complaints about super hacker Tim for the past several years make me wonder what people were saying back in 2008-2011. Because Nicieza's plots were really incoherent. He has Tim constantly monologuing internally about how he's planning this and that, but how in the world were any of the actions Tim took during Batman RIP and the chaos that followed actually the instigators of anything that happened. It's almost exactly like the superhacking - informed ability that Tim says he did stuff, but it's just secret knowledge hidden from the reader until the author reveals that Tim knew stuff all along, but let it happen because it was all in the plan - and then the plan just falls apart anyway.
> 
> I'm not convinced that super-hacker Tim is such a bad thing, at this point. At least it's a skill, rather than "Tim just knows everything."


The reason a guy like me sees FabNic's Red Robin as superior to hacker!Tim is at least partially a fundamental difference in the way both approach problem solving. FabNic's Tim follows the old "Unspoken Plan Guarantee" (as did Yost's), but the plans still usually involve other characters and some kind of logic, even if strained a bit:

- Cooperate with other characters who are only mid-level on the criminal food chain to destabilize the entire criminal structure, thus requiring a mystery subplot involving Lynx, her personality, proposed backstory, and Tim having to make a judgement call; attempt to use one single plan to control, compromise, or capture both a pair of corrupt cops and supervillains they can contact, thus using a convuluted body double plan to get Scarab captured, Tim's ID covered, and corrupt cops flipped to Jason Bard's stooges.

The "Chessmaster" archetype also benefits from a more dramatic and plot-intrinsic way to have the hero get in trouble. People are easily the biggest variable of all, so having a plan fall apart is totally plausible, no matter who or what it is:

-Damian discovers Tim's emergency plans, and expresses his anger and sorrow over being targeted, causing a fight and a breakdown in plans; Tim can be ready for Anarky not caring about his parents, but he can't know they'll bring their kids along; the Assassins tournament is simply too big for Tim not to need some serious backup.

In contrast, Hacker!Tim, on a fundamental level, relies on largely fictional "magic" that very rarely gets explained:

- Problem shows up, so Tim gives technological exposition,  problem solved.

It's much less colorful and involved. It's kind of like comparing Deep Space 9, with an ensemble cast and a focus on dramatic use of cunning and intelligence, even when it falters, versus Voyager, where the problem will probably just be solved by Tom Paris tech-tech-I G something they can shoot the problem with.

----------


## Frontier

I haven't re-read Nicieza's run in a while now, but what I can remember Tim's expert planning and prep just didn't seem as annoying or overpowered as Tim's hacking has become, but maybe because it felt like there was a little more shown effort with the former then the latter. 

At least in my opinion.

----------


## shadowsgirl

The super hacker thing is extra lame. It's boring and harms Tim's character in many ways. He doesn't do any real effort and his victories are unearned. He just pushes some buttons, and that's it. The best things in Tim's series were always the internal monologues. Without them, Tim seems shallow and one dimensional in Tynion's writing. Maybe if we could see his actual thoughts during the hacking, he wouldn't look like this smug and obnoxious. Sometimes I just want to hit his face with a brick. New52/Rebirth Tim is very far from Pre-Flaspoint Tim. He isn't even likeable.

----------


## millernumber1

Sorry for taking so long to respond - had a bunch of stuff to do.




> It has been a while since i read boths FabNic runs, but i generally agreed that of the 2 Red Robin writters, Yost was the best, but the reason of why i sort of went with the "Tim knows something that the audience doesn't know for then to fail anyway" (what happened with Amstrong's brothers is the first example that comes to mind), a theme of his run was about how far Tim was willing to go with his manipulations and scheme and what would he become (if you ask me he was going to the Tomorrow Tim route), maybe the execution is nor all that could have been and i would have prefer another writter to tackle it (some of that dialogue was soo bad), but i thougth that was at least interesting, regardless if i still find Tim likable or not.
> Althougth i had come to prefer Tynion over Lodbell's take, mostly because in spite of the over the top hacking, he treats Tim as a characther and is having facing his most deepest fears and flaws, unlike in TT when he felt more like a plot device and hey at least he is self aware enougth to not write a solo with him.


You're absolutely right that FabNic was trying to push Tim in the Tomorrow Tim direction, which is part of why I'm really not a fan of him generally. In addition, Tim fans generally dislike the current characterization of Tim as a cocky, boastful sort - but rereading the confrontation with Shiva in Robin #183, I was really put off by how cocky and boastful Tim is. Yes, his plan did work, but it's not an attractive look on Tim. What I really appreciated about Yost in the first two arcs of Red Robin is that he took what FabNic had developed of a darker Tim and showed how it was explicitly a bad thing, and how he needed to reverse course to win. I'm really disappointed that Yost left and FabNic came back, and after a few nice moments of Bruce hugging Tim, we got more and more Tim and his harem as well as more and more of Tim going dark Batman (particularly in the final issue, but even the Hit List contains strong tendencies towards that).

Completely agree that though Tynion has a plotting problem that leads to the "super hacking" being more common than necessary, his core traits of Tim tend to be loyalty and idealism, even with the bits of arrogance/confidence.




> The reason a guy like me sees FabNic's Red Robin as superior to hacker!Tim is at least partially a fundamental difference in the way both approach problem solving. FabNic's Tim follows the old "Unspoken Plan Guarantee" (as did Yost's), but the plans still usually involve other characters and some kind of logic, even if strained a bit:
> 
> - Cooperate with other characters who are only mid-level on the criminal food chain to destabilize the entire criminal structure, thus requiring a mystery subplot involving Lynx, her personality, proposed backstory, and Tim having to make a judgement call; attempt to use one single plan to control, compromise, or capture both a pair of corrupt cops and supervillains they can contact, thus using a convuluted body double plan to get Scarab captured, Tim's ID covered, and corrupt cops flipped to Jason Bard's stooges.
> 
> The "Chessmaster" archetype also benefits from a more dramatic and plot-intrinsic way to have the hero get in trouble. People are easily the biggest variable of all, so having a plan fall apart is totally plausible, no matter who or what it is:
> 
> -Damian discovers Tim's emergency plans, and expresses his anger and sorrow over being targeted, causing a fight and a breakdown in plans; Tim can be ready for Anarky not caring about his parents, but he can't know they'll bring their kids along; the Assassins tournament is simply too big for Tim not to need some serious backup.
> 
> In contrast, Hacker!Tim, on a fundamental level, relies on largely fictional "magic" that very rarely gets explained:
> ...


Hacker Tim does rely on fictional magic - but let's look at Robin #183 again. Poison that relies on heart rate increase? Sure, you get a sense of setup and fulfillment that is pleasurable, but it's no more ridiculous than "Tim hacks the computers and gets them to release him" that we saw in the most recent issue of Tec. I'd argue that Tim designing the Belfry and the subway system is an example of the old type of plotting - it's something plausible from what we know of Tim (who set up his own Robins Nests all over the city which are referenced in Batman Eternal), and relies on planning, which is a classic Batman skill.

Now, when it comes to a classic chessmaster plot, which takes some skill to really pull off well, I think it's definitely more satisfying when it's done right, but "Search for a Hero," the final arc of Robin, was not a good example of a chessmaster. Tim acts randomly - paying Penguin five million dollars for a cell phone pic that he could have gotten if he'd just stuck with his street canvassing (and distracted Steph from deleting pics) a bit longer (it only takes about 30 minutes for Penguin to get the photo and Tim to get it from him and discover Steph's treachery). Then, he spends the next six issues doing such fantastic things as: failing to convince a kid to leave his gang; starting police riots by not neutralizing the two corrupt cops before turning them in; following a lead without doing a proper check of his surroundings and getting benched for a whole issue because he was blown up by C4; and then fighting The General (without even capturing him) and breaking his recorded messages, just before the General blows up his own siblings.

FabNic tries to get us to believe this is a Chessmaster plot by saying Tim "allowed everything to happen to lead it to the boiling point," but the actions I've described above don't show Tim actually guiding events. He spends most of the arc failing, and ends taking credit for being "dark" when he is in fact just incompetent (watching the street but the General still plants bombs all over it).

I do think that the Scarab plan in Red Robin #15 is much better executed (though it completely ignores Scarab's personality as FabNic wrote her himself in Search for a Hero, where she prefers a clean assassination instead of grandstanding to cause chaos, and reaching further back when Johnny Warlock hired Scarab to kill Robin and she caused Steph's firing, she was doing nighttime assassinations without much fuss, though lots of collateral damage). I didn't do a complete Red Robin reread last night, so I don't remember exactly how much better that series was (though the crossover fatigue hit that series pretty hard in the second half of the run - Collision was only one issue with Batgirl, and it's really well done. The Teen Titans and then the Azrael crossovers really sucked a lot of momentum from the ongoing story, if I recall correctly). I do think I recall it being a bit more satisfying, but it was again pushing the "Tim goes dark and lonely" plot, which I think is so disappointing and unnecessary.

I'll be in line to complain if Tim relies too heavily on hacking when he returns, but I really don't think he's shown doing it excessively in Tec so far.




> I haven't re-read Nicieza's run in a while now, but what I can remember Tim's expert planning and prep just didn't seem as annoying or overpowered as Tim's hacking has become, but maybe because it felt like there was a little more shown effort with the former then the latter. 
> 
> At least in my opinion.


Again, I'd have to do a complete and careful reread of the second half of Red Robin to be sure, but I think FabNic's execution of the Chessmaster plot is pretty shaky, at least in his run on the original Robin title.




> The super hacker thing is extra lame. It's boring and harms Tim's character in many ways. He doesn't do any real effort and his victories are unearned. He just pushes some buttons, and that's it. The best things in Tim's series were always the internal monologues. Without them, Tim seems shallow and one dimensional in Tynion's writing. Maybe if we could see his actual thoughts during the hacking, he wouldn't look like this smug and obnoxious. Sometimes I just want to hit his face with a brick. New52/Rebirth Tim is very far from Pre-Flaspoint Tim. He isn't even likeable.


I agree that super hacker Tim isn't super interesting. I'm just not convinced that Super Dark Informed But Never Shown Ability Chessmaster Tim is better. And at least in FabNic's hands, he was really smug and obnoxious.

I'm in favor of Steph hitting his face with a brick!  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

> I agree that super hacker Tim isn't super interesting. I'm just not convinced that Super Dark Informed But Never Shown Ability Chessmaster Tim is better. And at least in FabNic's hands, he was* really smug and obnoxious.
> *
> I'm in favor of Steph hitting his face with a brick!


I think at least part of that was intentional in showing Tim's issues as he was leaning more and more into Bruce's negative traits as Batman. 

But I dunno. The handling of the latter version of Tim just feels more genuine and believable to me then hacker Tim in virtually any story, and has more of a point to it. At least that's my take on it.

----------


## TheCape

> You're absolutely right that FabNic was trying to push Tim in the Tomorrow Tim direction, which is part of why I'm really not a fan of him generally. In addition, Tim fans generally dislike the current characterization of Tim as a cocky, boastful sort - but rereading the confrontation with Shiva in Robin #183, I was really put off by how cocky and boastful Tim is. Yes, his plan did work, but it's not an attractive look on Tim. What I really appreciated about Yost in the first two arcs of Red Robin is that he took what FabNic had developed of a darker Tim and showed how it was explicitly a bad thing, and how he needed to reverse course to win. I'm really disappointed that Yost left and FabNic came back, and after a few nice moments of Bruce hugging Tim, we got more and more Tim and his harem as well as more and more of Tim going dark Batman (particularly in the final issue, but even the Hit List contains strong tendencies towards that).
> 
> Completely agree that though Tynion has a plotting problem that leads to the "super hacking" being more common than necessary, his core traits of Tim tend to be loyalty and idealism, even with the bits of arrogance/confidence.


I never was put off for Tim being cocky or arrogant, i thinkn that at this point is well earned after years of doing this, the reason of why people probably didn't have much problem with the figth in #183 is because at thay point we were talking about a characther that has a sucessfull solo carreer as Robin, something that New 52 Tim didn't have and for a long time we weren't sure if Rebirth Tim has that, nlw that is bad i think that is earned, besides i do believe that Tim at this point should be a bit annoying when it come to his skill, partially for that image of trickster Robin that i had of him.

----------


## TheCape

> Then, he spends the next six issues doing such fantastic things as: failing to convince a kid to leave his gang; starting police riots by not neutralizing the two corrupt cops before turning them in; following a lead without doing a proper check of his surroundings and getting benched for a whole issue because he was blown up by C4; and then fighting The General (without even capturing him) and breaking his recorded messages, just before the General blows up his own siblings.


I sort of saw all that as Tim starting his chessmaster tendencies, but not being quite as good with it yet, i think that he even admits his own mistakes handling the whole thing at one point, but by Red Robin he was improving on it. Althougth be honest the problem of making chessmaster characther apart of the plotting (very important) is trying to make the characther likable, this is an archetype that usually has somebody playing other people like puppets unless that you make a good balance with that, you are going to have problems with it in the long run. I think that because managed to recover some of his old mojo back, the second half of Red Robin did a better job, he still has a pretty good frienship with Dick, pacthed things up with YJ buddies and get along pretty well with Cass, so you could make an argument that still was hope for the guy (after all he didn't kill Boomerang at the end if his solo).

----------


## millernumber1

> I think at least part of that was intentional in showing Tim's issues as he was leaning more and more into Bruce's negative traits as Batman. 
> 
> But I dunno. The handling of the latter version of Tim just feels more genuine and believable to me then hacker Tim in virtually any story, and has more of a point to it. At least that's my take on it.


I think that direction is a stupid one, but I would agree that it was what FabNic was going for. One of these days I'm going to have to go through n52 Tim again (excluding Teen Titans) - I did it once earlier this year, and really liked the Tim of Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal. But it was a LOT of issues, and I wasn't specifically looking at the hacking vs. plot abilities at that point. I do think that Tim in the two Eternals, even though he didn't get as much focus as he deserved, was a really cool guy - loyal, kind, brave, and probably the most committed to Bruce as a person of all the Robins (at least in Eternal).




> I never was put off for Tim being cocky or arrogant, i thinkn that at this point is well earned after years of doing this, the reason of why people probably didn't have much problem with the figth in #183 is because at thay point we were talking about a characther that has a sucessfull solo carreer as Robin, something that New 52 Tim didn't have and for a long time we weren't sure if Rebirth Tim has that, nlw that is bad i think that is earned, besides i do believe that Tim at this point should be a bit annoying when it come to his skill, partially for that image of trickster Robin that i had of him.


Interesting. Most Tim fans I've talked to dislike the cockiness.




> I sort of saw all that as Tim starting his chessmaster tendencies, but not being quite as good with it yet, i think that he even admits his own mistakes handling the whole thing at one point, but by Red Robin he was improving on it. Althougth be honest the problem of making chessmaster characther apart of the plotting (very important) is trying to make the characther likable, this is an archetype that usually has somebody playing other people like puppets unless that you make a good balance with that, you are going to have problems with it in the long run. I think that because managed to recover some of his old mojo back, the second half of Red Robin did a better job, he still has a pretty good frienship with Dick, pacthed things up with YJ buddies and get along pretty well with Cass, so you could make an argument that still was hope for the guy (after all he didn't kill Boomerang at the end if his solo).


It's more than Tim not being good at chessmastering - it's the fact that the narration claims he's being a chessmaster, but I see no proof of his actual actions being chess moves.  Yost did a good thing by having Tim start off at the deep end of dark and lonely, but softening as he realizes he's failing on his own. Ending the run on the Boomerang issue was a pretty downer note, though. Yes, he doesn't kill him, but he also doesn't stop the plan much earlier when he should have.

----------


## TheCape

> Interesting. Most Tim fans I've talked to dislike the cockiness.


I had see it too, but Tim always had some of that in his early days, is just that he come across more like a know it all nerd, than an smug genius, there were other elemetns of the book (like Steph :Big Grin: ), that undermine him a bit for comedic effects so it was downplayed (huh, maybe Tim needs in his life when it comes to had a partner).



> It's more than Tim not being good at chessmastering - it's the fact that the narration claims he's being a chessmaster, but I see no proof of his actual actions being chess moves. Yost did a good thing by having Tim start off at the deep end of dark and lonely, but softening as he realizes he's failing on his own. Ending the run on the Boomerang issue was a pretty downer note, though. Yes, he doesn't kill him, but he also doesn't stop the plan much earlier when he should have.


Fair enougth, you have a better memory of that arc than me, at least in the second half of RR Tim was definetly in a better emotional place, maybe didn't stoped it as soon as he should, but he did rigth thing (wich is something that i always expect from Tim no matter what) and his final monologue implies that he is considering all his decisions up until that point "This city is mine, if i want it to be, but in order to do that, what i would have to become?", is ambigous, but at the same time doesn't exclude the possibility of Tim making up for his mistakes, his optimist isn't completly gone yet, so i still have hope for him.

----------


## millernumber1

> I had see it too, but Tim always had some of that in his early days, is just that he come across more like a know it all nerd, than an smug genius, there were other elemetns of the book (like Steph), that undermine him a bit for comedic effects so it was downplayed (huh, maybe Tim needs in his life when it comes to had a partner).
> 
> Fair enougth, you have a better memory of that arc than me, at least in the second half of RR Tim was definetly in a better emotional place, maybe didn't stoped it as soon as he should, but he did rigth thing (wich is something that i always expect from Tim no matter what) and his final monologue implies that he is considering all his decisions up until that point "This city is mine, if i want it to be, but in order to do that, what i would have to become?", is ambigous, but at the same time doesn't exclude the possibility of Tim making up for his mistakes, his optimist isn't completly gone yet, so i still have hope for him.


I have hope, I just don't think Tim is a character who is best written as ambiguous. Fundamentally, even apart from plotting weaknesses, I think FabNic just isn't a great writer for Tim because his vision is the Tim of Tomorrow, and I don't think most Tim fans want that as the longterm direction for the character.

----------


## Dataweaver

I certainly don't. My preferred future for Tim is the next Oracle.

----------


## TheCape

> I have hope, I just don't think Tim is a character who is best written as ambiguous. Fundamentally, even apart from plotting weaknesses, I think FabNic just isn't a great writer for Tim because his vision is the Tim of Tomorrow, and I don't think most Tim fans want that as the longterm direction for the character.


Oh i certanly don't want him to go for that route, but i fibd the struggle interesting, Tynion seems to agreed and alsonleft clear that the future is not written in stone, wich is a trope that i love.

----------


## Frontier

> I think that direction is a stupid one, but I would agree that it was what FabNic was going for. One of these days I'm going to have to go through n52 Tim again (excluding Teen Titans) - I did it once earlier this year, and really liked the Tim of Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal. But it was a LOT of issues, and I wasn't specifically looking at the hacking vs. plot abilities at that point. I do think that Tim in the two Eternals, even though he didn't get as much focus as he deserved, was a really cool guy - loyal, kind, brave, and probably the most committed to Bruce as a person of all the Robins (at least in Eternal).


The most I remember about Tim from the Eternals is his training Harper (which was kind of meh for me) and his meeting Steph for the first time (again). 

Not much else about him from those series' really stood out to me (aside from the hacking).

----------


## TheCape

> Not much else about him from those series' really stood out to me (aside from the hacking).


I remenber him using the Scarecrow gas to avoid mind control, i thougth that it was a good moment because Tim resolved something without hacking.

----------


## Assam

> I certainly don't. My preferred future for Tim is the next Oracle.


I can see it now: TomorrowTim (Doomsday stopper that he is) curbstomps the team, and to save Kate, Tim pulls the old time-travel story trick by crippling himself to stop him. (No, that doesn't make sense, but let's be real, that plot point NEVER makes sense) From there, Tim goes to college, also serving as the new Oracle, both providing assistance to all heroes, and already having two groups who could serve as his equivalent to the Birds (Cass and Steph, and the other YJ kids. Or Hell, put them all together. We already know Kon +Cass = Fun, the fact that the two Cass's never met was silly, and I'm pretty sure Bart's body language might actually make Cass pass out.  :Stick Out Tongue:  ) 

Of course, none of that's gonna happen. The Bensons are still doing the beyond idiotic "Babs is Batgirl AND Oracle" thing, doing both roles a disservice, and Tynion obviously wants to keep using Tim in 'Tec here, most likely continuing as Red Robin.

----------


## Frontier

I do not see Tim as the new Oracle.

He does enough absurd hacking as is.

----------


## Assam

> I do not see Tim as the new Oracle.


Neither do I really. My opinion of who should be Oracle goes something like this: 

Barbara Gordon> Wendy Harris>>>>>>>>>>>Pretty much everyone else> Magog> FakeBabs :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> I certainly don't. My preferred future for Tim is the next Oracle.


I could see that. He was sort of doing that at the beginning of the n52.




> Oh i certanly don't want him to go for that route, but i fibd the struggle interesting, Tynion seems to agreed and alsonleft clear that the future is not written in stone, wich is a trope that i love.


See, that's what I love about Tynion. For all the weakness in plotting, I think there's a real understanding and love of the characters, and that's what I really want from most of my comics.




> The most I remember about Tim from the Eternals is his training Harper (which was kind of meh for me) and his meeting Steph for the first time (again). 
> 
> Not much else about him from those series' really stood out to me (aside from the hacking).


Tim is first to think of Bruce, and shows the most emotion about Bruce in danger, during Batman Eternal (especially during the "Bruce is locked in the Batmobile by Hush" sequence). He also is shown to have a lot of Robins Nests all over Gotham, which I really liked.

In the second Eternal, Tim got to bond with Jason, which I really liked, and he and Jason fought Mother's mind control with the power of their newly strengthened friendship, which I loved. He also saved Spyral by having to figure out how to hack the satellite backwards while on fear gas. It was hacking, yes, but I thought it wasn't something easy, but clearly showed as very hard. And Tim Seeley paced the heck out of those issues - the assault on Spyral was a masterful little mini-arc full of tension. And Tim saved the day! (It's things like this that make me love both Eternals, despite their flaws. And those flaws are many and serious, but there's real good in there.)




> I remenber him using the Scarecrow gas to avoid mind control, i thougth that it was a good moment because Tim resolved something without hacking.


Yes! Tim was so brave and true there!

----------


## Frontier

> Tim is first to think of Bruce, and shows the most emotion about Bruce in danger, during Batman Eternal (especially during the "Bruce is locked in the Batmobile by Hush" sequence). He also is shown to have a lot of Robins Nests all over Gotham, which I really liked.


I just remember him being unnecessarily hostile to Bruce in some of those issues and it just feeling weird how they were handling him in light of his Robin history being truncated and made, effectively, unofficial. 




> In the second Eternal, Tim got to bond with Jason, which I really liked, and he and Jason fought Mother's mind control with the power of their newly strengthened friendship, which I loved. He also saved Spyral by having to figure out how to hack the satellite backwards while on fear gas. It was hacking, yes, but I thought it wasn't something easy, but clearly showed as very hard. And Tim Seeley paced the heck out of those issues - the assault on Spyral was a masterful little mini-arc full of tension. And Tim saved the day! (It's things like this that make me love both Eternals, despite their flaws. And those flaws are many and serious, but there's real good in there.)


The Tim and Jason stuff was just weird to me. But in general I just wasn't feeling a lot of the second Eternal even if I think the writers' hearts and intentions were in the right place. 

I'm glad you were able to really enjoy both of them though  :Smile: .

----------


## The Whovian

> I do not see Tim as the new Oracle.
> 
> He does enough absurd hacking as is.


Agreed. Maybe if he was 90 years old

----------


## TheCape

So, for what i heard Tim of Tomorrow is going to stay in current continuity pass "A Lonely Place of Living", what do you think that they would do with him?.

----------


## RedBird

> So, for what i heard Tim of Tomorrow is going to stay in current continuity pass "A Lonely Place of Living", what do you think that they would do with him?.


As what? Like a constant enemy in the DC verse, or do you mean past another arc, if its the latter that doesnt surprise me, considering his appearance in Batwoman which has yet to be concluded.

Sorry I just realized I answered your question with another question XD but seriously do you know how long they intend for him to stay?

----------


## TheCape

His whole thing is trying to kill Kate to avoid his future, so i assumed that he could be a regular rogue for her.
Well, there is a croosover in December (Superman, TT and Super Sons) about some "Batman of Tomorrow", trying to kill Jon Kent and Damian trying to avoid it. Althougth, maybe i'm wrong and that is totally different Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just remember him being unnecessarily hostile to Bruce in some of those issues and it just feeling weird how they were handling him in light of his Robin history being truncated and made, effectively, unofficial. 
> 
> The Tim and Jason stuff was just weird to me. But in general I just wasn't feeling a lot of the second Eternal even if I think the writers' hearts and intentions were in the right place. 
> 
> I'm glad you were able to really enjoy both of them though .


Well, this was just after Death of the Family, so I think Tynion was trying to come back from that, but he had to do so within the confines of that event.

I liked the Tim and Jason stuff. I hope that Lobdell was paying attention - but he did like Tim and Jason as buds, as in Robin War.

I know Eternal, especially the second one, is a controversial topic, but they are the events that literally brought me back to comics, so I have a huge love for them.  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> So, for what i heard Tim of Tomorrow is going to stay in current continuity pass "A Lonely Place of Living", what do you think that they would do with him?.


Who said that? I haven't heard anything about Future Tim staying in the current timeline.

----------


## Dataweaver

First: Oracle doesn't have to be a cripple, and Babs isn't doing a disservice to either identity by claiming both. I'm reminded of Elseworld's Finest, which did the same thing: that world's Babs was both Batgirl and Oracle. And I didn't mean that Tim should literally take the Oracle codename; just the M.O.  

Second, Oracle's hacking _is_ what Tim's hacking _ should be_: it's not a magical technology control, but rather a means to acquire and disseminate information.  Sometimes she manipulates the information. But she generally doesn't hack into control systems to command physical devices to do her bidding; instead, she identifies weak spots that her team can exploit, or lets them know where they need to be too be most effective, etc. 

_That's_ what Tim should be doing: gathering as much data as he can, figuring out what it means, and deciding what to do about it. It's about being the anti-Riddler: finding and solving the riddles that most bad guys don't even know they're leaving behind. It shouldn't be about Tim having plans three steps down the line; it should be about him seeing _other peoples' plans_ three steps down the line and thus being in a better position to counteract them. He should have opponents who are known for employing Xanatos Gambits, and he should have a knack for breaking them. 

That's the core of what originally made him great: his ability to figure out what's _really_ going on, and to do something about it. In this regard, his hacking skills should be treated as a force multiplier for his ability to figure out what's really going on; likewise, the Neon Knights (his counterpart to the Birds of Prey) would be the force multiplier for his ability to do something about it.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Oh i certanly don't want him to go for that route, but i find the struggle interesting, Tynion seems to agreed and alsonleft clear that the future is not written in stone, wich is a trope that i love.


In order for that to work, though, there has to _be_ a struggle, not just a slow but inexorable slide into darkness.

----------


## millernumber1

> In order for that to work, though, there has to _be_ a struggle, not just a slow but inexorable slide into darkness.


Well, now that Tim is aware of the danger, I imagine that Tynion's plan is to show the struggle.

----------


## TheCape

> I do not see Tim as the new Oracle.


I actually think that would it fit him perfectly, him and Barbara are very similar and Tim seems the kind of person that would prefer a job that requires a lot of digging information and being sit almost all day.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> I actually think that would it fit him perfectly, him and Barbara are very similar and Tim seems the kind of person that would prefer a job that requires a lot of digging information and being sit almost all day.



Nope. Tim is an adrenaline junkie. He mentioned that in his Robin series multiple times.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nope. Tim is an adrenaline junkie. He mentioned that in his Robin series multiple times.


Hmmm. I know Tim enjoys his work, but I don't think it's at the same level as Dick. Do you have a specific scene where you think that is shown really strongly?

----------


## Dataweaver

I don't think “adrenaline junkie” is quite the right phrase. As @millernumber1 points out, he _enjoys_ the adrenaline rush; but not too the point that he ever feels compelled to do something dangerous just for the rush. I wouldn't call _Nightwing_ an adrenaline junkie; and he's _far_ more likely to go for the adrenaline rush than Tim is.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't think “adrenaline junkie” is quite the right phrase. As @millernumber1 points out, he enjoys the adrenaline rush; but not too the point that he ever feels compelled to do something dangerous just for the rush. I wouldn't call Nightwing an adrenaline junkie; and he's far more likely to go for the adrenaline rush than Tim is.


Dick is definetly an adrenaline junkie, is one of the reasons of why he enjoys being a hero so much and why he is so careless with his civilian life. Tim is an interesting dichotomy of enjoying his work, but also apreciating the moments of peace that the civilian life bring to him, like Spider-Man.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Okay, then adrenaline rush. The point is that he loves the rush and the thrill as he mentioned in his internal monologues multiple times. And he often used Robin as an escape from his civilian life, too. He wanted to put on the costume and run far away from his problems. Steph loves the adrenaline rush just as much as Tim. They talked about that sometimes. I couldn't find the exact issues which I had in mind, but these pages are good, too.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

Hmm. I see that more as his love of the mission, love of doing good, helping people (the city). There is an adrenaline rush, and he does find meaning in the life of the cape, but I don't think it's anywhere close to Dick's motivation, or even Steph's. Steph's outright said a few times (early in her career) that she's motivated by the rush. Tim's more motivated by the meaning he finds in doing it. More analytical, as befits him.

----------


## Dataweaver

This. And this is the same Tim who once commented to Dick that he considers Robin to be a temporary thing. Sure, he likes the rush; it's physically impossible _not_ to like a flood of endorphins. But really, the bit about liking his vigilante activities more than his home life was really more of a comment about how irritating he was finding the latter than about how enjoyable her found the former. 

Of all of the Robins, Tim has always struck me as the one most able to just hang up the cape and walk away without ever looking back. Heck, when he _did_ hang up the cape, his dissatisfaction with doing so had more to do with being forced to do so than with actually missing the life as Robin.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Hmm. I see that more as his love of the mission, love of doing good, helping people (the city). There is an adrenaline rush, and he does find meaning in the life of the cape, but I don't think it's anywhere close to Dick's motivation, or even Steph's. Steph's outright said a few times (early in her career) that she's motivated by the rush. Tim's more motivated by the meaning he finds in doing it. More analytical, as befits him.


My point is that Tim is a superhero, and he doesn't belong in the background. He isn't an Oracle type who wants to sit behind a monitor. Tim wants to go where the action is. Sure, he is good with computers, but it's not his main job. He was created to be Robin. He is a superhero, not just someone who stays in the background. It doesn't matter if he quit, because eventually he will always come back.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> This. And this is the same Tim who once commented to Dick that he considers Robin to be a temporary thing. Sure, he likes the rush; it's physically impossible _not_ to like a flood of endorphins. But really, the bit about liking his vigilante activities more than his home life was really more of a comment about how irritating he was finding the latter than about how enjoyable her found the former. 
> 
> Of all of the Robins, Tim has always struck me as the one most able to just hang up the cape and walk away without ever looking back. Heck, when he _did_ hang up the cape, his dissatisfaction with doing so had more to do with being forced to do so than with actually missing the life as Robin.


After his father died, he made a vow. He decided to spend the rest of his life making the world safe.

----------


## Aioros22

That "me bad" page" is totally bananas and I say that in the good way. It`s nerdy awesome.

----------


## millernumber1

> My point is that Tim is a superhero, and he doesn't belong in the background. He isn't an Oracle type who wants to sit behind a monitor. Tim wants to go where the action is. Sure, he is good with computers, but it's not his main job. He was created to be Robin. He is a superhero, not just someone who stays in the background. It doesn't matter if he quit, because eventually he will always come back.


Yeesh, War Games. Ick ick ick ick ick.

Okay.

I agree that Tim is a superhero. I'm not the one really pushing for Tim not to be Robin or Red Robin, or to be Oracle. I just think that it's very true that Tim is the Robin who is most likely to give it up. Not that he will or should. And that tension is part of what makes Tim interesting (contrary to the people who insist that Tim is boring. He's not. I love him. Not as much as I love Steph - that would be hard - but I love him a lot, and think he's very interesting.)

----------


## millernumber1

> That "me bad" page" is totally bananas and I say that in the good way. It`s nerdy awesome.


That's Dixon Tim all the way through. Awesome.

----------


## Dataweaver

> My point is that Tim is a superhero, and he doesn't belong in the background. He isn't an Oracle type who wants to sit behind a monitor. Tim wants to go where the action is. Sure, he is good with computers, but it's not his main job. He was created to be Robin. He is a superhero, not just someone who stays in the background. It doesn't matter if he quit, because eventually he will always come back.


I generally don't put much stock in the War Games/Veteran era of Robin. But even there, consider what it took to get Tim back in costume: “We could really use Robin right about now”; “one of the bloodiest days in Gotham history”; “Darla's dead”; etc. Tim didn't suit up again because he missed the suit; he speed up again because his sense of responsibility wouldn't let him do nothing while Gotham was falling apart. And at that moment, the most effective thing he could do was to become Robin again. More on this in a moment.




> After his father died, he made a vow. He decided to spend the rest of his life making the world safe.


The idea that this was a new vote is one of the things I don't like about War Games. My understanding of Tim is that he has _always_ been dedicated to making the world safe. That bit about considering the Robin thing to be temporary wasn't about his overall goal in life; it was about how best to achieve that goal. In the Veteran panels you posted, he talks about “continually look[ing] for better ways to fulfill [his] sacred vow”. Being the guy in charge of the Neon Knights is potentially a better way to make the world safe from its more extraordinary threats.  

Also: I don't have the library of images you do; but I remember a scene from Red Robin where Tim was wondering his future. There were three panels depicting possible futures: Tim as Batman, Tim as a martyr (i.e., “here lies Tim Drake, who gave his all” or something to that effect, and Tim doing the Oracle thing. I also seem to recall another scene, I don't recall where, where a future Tim was commenting on how much for he was doing with (I think) the Neon Knights, and then idly wondering how long it had been since he had last suited up.

An Oracle-like future is definitely a possibility for Tim.

----------


## TheCape

> Also: I don't have the library of images you do; but I remember a scene from Red Robin where Tim was wondering his future. There were three panels depicting possible futures: Tim as Batman, Tim as a martyr (i.e., “here lies Tim Drake, who gave his all” or something to that effect, and Tim doing the Oracle thing. I also seem to recall another scene, I don't recall where, where a future Tim was commenting on how much for he was doing with (I think) the Neon Knights, and then idly wondering how long it had been since he had last suited up.


The panel was in Red Robin #25

----------


## TheCape

Well, is confirmed, Tim of Tomorrow is going to be the bad guy of the new Superman, TT and Super Sons crosovers.

----------


## TheCape

superman38.jpg
The new suit of Tomorrow Tim in the Superman #38 cover.

----------


## millernumber1

Well, that's weird.

----------


## TheCape

> Well, that's weird.


You know, considering that Damian partially founded the team out of respect for Tim, i wonder how their relationship would be portrayed, althougth Tomasi doesn't fill me with confidence when it comes to writting Tim.

----------


## Assam

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wow, that suit actually made me laugh out loud! It's hilarious!

----------


## Frontier

Reminds me of the lead from _Wanted_ (the comic, not the movie).

----------


## The Whovian

> superman38.jpg
> The new suit of Tomorrow Tim in the Superman #38 cover.


Wow, that is ugly.

----------


## Assam

> Wow, that is ugly.


I'm even more glad I'm not reading this story. I can't take him seriously at all in that get-up. It's worse than the swan wings!

----------


## Frontier

> I'm even more glad I'm not reading this story. I can't take him seriously at all in that get-up. It's worse than the swan wings!


I think it's much better then the swan wings, actually  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Whovian

> I think it's much better then the swan wings, actually .


A little better, but not by much. I mean, everything about it is ugly: the design, the belt buckle, the cape threads, the color scheme. I really would like to know who designed this costume. And who at DC thought it looked good and approved it.

----------


## Frontier

> A little better, but not by much. I mean, everything about it is ugly: the design, the belt buckle, the cape threads, the color scheme. I really would like to know who designed this costume. And who at DC thought it looked good and approved it.


I think I've seen much worse, honestly.

----------


## godisawesome

> superman38.jpg
> The new suit of Tomorrow Tim in the Superman #38 cover.


It may be a sub-optimal design, but I'd kill to see Tomorrow Tim in a story alongside Black Zero Kon.

----------


## RedBird

I scrolled past it too quick and thought it was Spawn.

So does this mean TomorrowTim is sticking around?

----------


## TheCape

Yup, he is, at least for a while, with a new horrible costume apparently. It can be worst that Sean Mckeever story with this guy last time.that we saw it, althlught i'm not thrilled with Tomasi writting Tim, even if it is an evil version of him.

----------


## sakuyamons

Tomorrow Tim will bring his Titans with him via hacking the multiverse  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Rather than pointless rant about Cass exclusion for the umpteenth time, I'll point out how that flashback really reminds me of JL8, the webcomic where, as you'd expect, the Justice Legaue are a bunch of 8 year olds. Ones living the lives of normal kids...but still with their powers. Anyone read it? It's pretty good and addictive.

----------


## Assam

Awwwwww  :Frown: 

I'm not sure where this series is from but is it still being made? Was this the newest strip?

----------


## shadowsgirl

Timmy <3

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> Awwwwww 
> 
> I'm not sure where this series is from but is it still being made? Was this the newest strip?


https://the-blackcat.deviantart.com/...e-One-97238825

----------


## Assam

> https://the-blackcat.deviantart.com/...e-One-97238825


Okay so it's a pretty old comic. 

Their page has several pieces of Cass art on it meaning they're a fan, so I wonder why they never integrated her into the comic.  :Confused:

----------


## scary harpy

> I think I've seen much worse, honestly.


I agree. I don't think it's that bad at all.

----------


## Assam

RIP The dream of Ryan Potter as Tim. He's been cast as Beast Boy on Titans.

----------


## TheCape

> RIP The dream of Ryan Potter as Tim. He's been cast as Beast Boy on Titans.


Well, i like boths characthers, so is not a big lost for me  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> RIP The dream of Ryan Potter as Tim. He's been cast as Beast Boy on Titans.


I would've loved him as Tim, but he should be a fun Beast Boy  :Smile: .

----------


## CGAR

So Ive always liked Bruce's "sons" Dick, Jason, Tim, and his actual son Damian. But in this latest reset are Tim and Bruce not close at all?

----------


## Assam

> So Ive always liked Bruce's "sons" Dick, Jason, Tim, and his actual son Damian.


Pre-Flashpoint, they were ALL his actual sons, with Cass also his actual daughter, and Damian being his _biological_ son. 

Presently, Dick and Jason are the only ones adopted, Cass may get her status back next year, and with Tim's parents alive, it's doubtful he'll be adopted again. 




> But in this latest reset are Tim and Bruce not close at all?


They weren't close at all in the Nu52, but in Rebirth Detective Comics, in the brief time Tim has interacted with Bruce, work has been done to make them close once again. 

What prompted this?

----------


## KrustyKid

Lol, I'm choosing Bat-Cow,

tumblr_oxprcgbOq11rsuhj7o1_540.jpg

----------


## Assam

In order, which I'd choose as my barber based on these descriptions:

1. Bat-Cow
2. Cass
3. Bruce
4. Tim
5. Jason
6. Dick
7. Damian
(Wait, isn't that just my actual male Robin ranking? Still true here XD) 
8. Steph

----------


## Frontier

> Lol, I'm choosing Bat-Cow,
> 
> Attachment 56533


It's a toss-up between Cass, Steph, and Bruce for me  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's a toss-up between Cass, Steph, and Bruce for me .


Dick would be my last choice, no way I'm down for that haircut, hahaha. Can't go wrong with Bruce or Cass, Steph would be ok too depending on my mood. Jason with the engine sounds would run its course and fast, lol. With Tim I'd just let the guy rant, just there for the clean cut. Damian with the chainsaw hands would just be downright frightening, and yet.. exhilarating at the same time,  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Assam

Look, Batcow, Bruce and Cass would all be great. I could handle Dick's style, Tim's ranting, Jason's motorcycle noises, and Damian's chainsaws...but I can NOT take a barber who wants to chat with me.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Look, Batcow, Bruce and Cass would all be great. I could handle Dick's style, Tim's ranting, Jason's motorcycle noises, and Damian's chainsaws...but I can NOT take a barber who wants to chat with me.


Fair enough. Silence during a cut is always nice.

----------


## Assam

> Fair enough. Silence during a cut is always nice.


Also, when I was a little kid, a barber who was talking with me snipped some skin off my ear. Wonder if that contributes to my distaste...

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Aahz

> Their page has several pieces of Cass art on it meaning they're a fan, so I wonder why they never integrated her into the comic.


I think Cass just not that easy to match Cass to "sitcom family archetype".

----------


## Assam

> I think Cass just not that easy to match Cass to "sitcom family archetype".


While she doesn't really fit any traditional sitcom archetype, I've seen her work well in BatFam "Sitcom" AU fanfics plenty of times.

----------


## Assam

I just realized that (unless he hurts Cass) I have no personal reason to root against TomorrowTim in 'Tec. Yes he's a murderous a-hole, but if he's right and killing Kate will stop the bad-future, then he'll both save lives and erase himself from existence. Unless you're a Kate fan, it's win-win.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

You kind of have to assume he hurt Cass. I can't imagine her standing aside to watch Tim crap all over Bruce's legacy. Although, she could have been taken out by some plot device villain, so Tim could feel some man-pain to justify his terrible decisions. I hope Tynion has a better plan for her.

----------


## Caivu

> I just realized that (unless he hurts Cass) I have no personal reason to root against TomorrowTim in 'Tec. Yes he's a murderous a-hole, but if he's right and killing Kate will stop the bad-future, then he'll both save lives and erase himself from existence. Unless you're a Kate fan, it's win-win.


Except we all know that he won't succeed, so the point is moot. He could very well be what causes her to become more hard-edged and then pass that on to Tim.

----------


## Assam

> You kind of have to assume he hurt Cass. I can't imagine her standing aside to watch Tim crap all over Bruce's legacy. Although, she could have been taken out by some plot device villain, so Tim could feel some man-pain to justify his terrible decisions. I hope Tynion has a better plan for her.


The more I think about it, the more I think the, "Kate does something which causes Basil to lose control and kill Cass" theory makes sense. Cause 1) you're absolutely right that she wouldn't have let Tim do this and were she alive, it wouldn't have even gotten this far (The second Dick retired she would have swooped in) 2) The line about "Since Clayface" and his relationship with her has been his most focused, and 3) Tynion hasn't given a throwaway answer to any of the several people who have asked about Cass's whereabouts in this timeline, meaning it's probably a spoiler. 

BTW, the last time we talked about her, I remember you saying you found Cass bland (the opinion of most who've never read her solo) Has that changed?

----------


## TheCape

I'm actually pretty sure that something happening to Cass is going to be the thing that put Tim over the edge wit Kate, maybe the "Fall of the Batmen" ( Tynion mentioned that Tim trying to keep his optimism id going to be a plot point here) is when their relationship would start to get explored and considering that maybe Tim is the older one now, he migth develop some sort big brother/little sister dynamic with her.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm actually pretty sure that something happening to Cass is going to be the thing that put Tim over the edge wit Kate, maybe the "Fall of the Batmen" ( Tynion mentioned that Tim trying to keep his optimism id going to be a plot point here) is when their relationship would start to get explored and considering that maybe Tim is the older one now, he migth develop some sort big brother/little sister dynamic with her.


That runs kinda counter to what Kate says in Batwoman #6. There, it sounds like she mentors him for a while and starts him on his more violent path.

----------


## Assam

> I'm actually pretty sure that something happening to Cass is going to be the thing that put Tim over the edge wit Kate, maybe the "Fall of the Batmen" ( Tynion mentioned that Tim trying to keep his optimism id going to be a plot point here) is when their relationship would start to get explored and considering that maybe Tim is the older one now, he migth develop some sort big brother/little sister dynamic with her.


Yeah, I've said a few times that as it stands, something happening to Cass shouldn't affect current Tim at all, but if Fall of the Batmen worked to set-up Cass's old BROTP as her new BROTP seems set to dissolve, it could hold more weight (And add an upside to the likely tragedy of Basil that will come here) Of course,  what Caivu said is also true, and Tynion doesn't seem too interested in Cass and Tim's relationship. 

Also, wouldn't really be down for a big bro/little sis relationship. That's what I always wanted her to have with Dick when I was younger. (And kinda still do) Bad enough _Jason_ is older than her now. I just want to see them being the awesome, close in age middle-kid siblings they were. Also also, I don't even know if Tim IS older. Tynion has literally said at one point or another that Cass is every age between 14 and 17.

----------


## TheCape

> Also also, I don't even know if Tim IS older


He is taller, more often that not in fiction that means that he is older  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> He is taller, more often that not in fiction that means that he is older .


True, but they deliberately made Cass so tiny so they could have the "Small Badass" trope (Something I'm still not a fan of)

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> BTW, the last time we talked about her, I remember you saying you found Cass bland (the opinion of most who've never read her solo) Has that changed?


Kind of? I love her aesthetic and I love the idea that a young woman could be the best h2h fighter in the family. I realised that I cheerfully ignore a lot of the things writers have written about my faves over the year, so I started doing the same about things written about Cass and I'm enjoying her a bit more.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Man, seing that second image of the second shadowsgirl post, remind me that i dislike Tim being drawn as bulky. I prefer him more leaner.

----------


## TheCape

I made a similar question in the Jason thread, so i want to do the same here, who are your favorite writters for Tim and what kind of dynamic would you prefer that he has with the other male Robins. I think that we all agreed on him being pretty good terms with Dick as things usually were before the reboot, but what about Jason and Damian.

Also because i read more about Tim that Jason here is my list, in not particular order: 
-Dixon
-Grant
-PAD
-Yost
-Nicieza

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Man, seing that second image of the second shadowsgirl post, remind me that i dislike Tim being drawn as bulky. I prefer him more leaner.


Me too. He seems too big now in Rebirth. He is supposed to be 16, but he looks older.



Although it's still better than these:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Or these:

----------


## Assam

> Kind of? I love her aesthetic and I love the idea that a young woman could be the best h2h fighter in the family. I realised that I cheerfully ignore a lot of the things writers have written about my faves over the year, so I started doing the same about things written about Cass and I'm enjoying her a bit more.


Glad to hear it. 

If you're ever interested, I've got a complete list of Cass recommendations.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I made a similar question in the Jason thread, so i want to do the same here, who are your favorite writters for Tim and what kind of dynamic would you prefer that he has with the other male Robins. I think that we all agreed on him being pretty good terms with Dick as things usually were before the reboot, but what about Jason and Damian.
> 
> Also because i read more about Tim that Jason here is my list, in not particular order: 
> -Dixon
> -Grant
> -PAD
> -Yost
> -Nicieza


Favorite Tim writers, in no order:

-Puckett, Horrocks and Gabrych (Pretty sad that all of Cass's writers wrote Tim better than ANYONE on his own book in the 2000s. 
- PAD
- Dixon
- Yost
-Grant

EDIT: Wasn't happy with what I said for the other part.

----------


## TheCape

> -Puckett, Horrocks and Gabrych (Pretty sad that all of Cass's writers wrote Tim better than ANYONE on his own book in the 2000s


I haven't entered full into Tim's darkest days, but i always like his charactherization in Cass solo.

----------


## godisawesome

> I made a similar question in the Jason thread, so i want to do the same here, who are your favorite writters for Tim and what kind of dynamic would you prefer that he has with the other male Robins. I think that we all agreed on him being pretty good terms with Dick as things usually were before the reboot, but what about Jason and Damian.
> 
> Also because i read more about Tim that Jason here is my list, in not particular order: 
> -Dixon
> -Grant
> -PAD
> -Yost
> -Nicieza


Writers:
1. Dixon: he ranks first because of his sheer workload, not just in Robin, but in the other Bat-books really cemented both Tim's characterization and fleshed out the whole idea of how the Batfamily interacts. While Wolfmann and others get credit for inventing Tim's original form, Dixon's the one who explained why he's awesome in his first few miniseries and solo book, building up an honestly decent supporting cast and rogues gallery, all while also just improvising moments like Tim walking in on an awkwardly apologizing to a Dick and Babs make out session.

2. Nicieza: probably my favorite style of Tim is under his pen, especially since he *did* manage to convince me that horrible mistakes and coincidences like the killing of all of Tim's parental figures and friends could be used positively. I absolutely enjoy his sense of humor; his Deapool peer, Joe Kelly, wrote my 2nd favorite Superboy run, so seeing strong characterization spiced with just the right amount of irreverence and meta-commentary is perfect. And I would still _Kill_ to read a Red Rpbin series with him on it again.

3. Gabrych, Puckett, et al. I actually do really enjoy the Batgirl and Robin adventures in Blidhaven, in particular the quiet moments.

4. Wolfmann. Created the character, and hasn't really sucked at the few other times he's handled him. 

5. Yost. Executed the graduation to Red Robin well, and I do like that arc, even if it's a bit humorless.

(PS, at the bottom of my list is Beechen and Lobdell; Lobdell for obvious reasons, and Beechen for the Evil!Cass arc.

Interactions with the other boys?

-Dick: Idealized Older Brother and the person Tim is much more comfortable talking to. And Dick probably does have immense trust in Tim, but does like to tease him a bit. Basically, the way Dixon wrote it in "The Boys".

-Jason: Has a good professional working rapport, but showdown still be somewhat wary; Jason did attack him more than once after retraining, and while his reasons made tactical and emotional sense and he's mellowed considerably, Tim should still doubt him. On Jason's side, I kind of feel he should be the most aware of Tim's flaws because he can see Tim talking himself into coldly manipulating people, and since he's gone dark, he only wants Tim to go down that path for the right reasons, if at all.

-Damian: Just an over the top sibling rivalry, but one with immense respect that will _never_ be admitted. And in my opinion, they should both quietly feel guilty about their first conflicts.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Chris Yost
Fabian Nicieza
Chuck Dixon
Peter David
Geoff Johns

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Huh, that reminds me to that time when Dixon implied that Tim migth be Jewish, althougth canonically he doesn't belong to any religious group as far as we know.
Also, i would have like to see more team ups beetween Tim and Helena, i feel that after the 90s they barely interacted.

----------


## Assam

> Also, i would have like to see more team ups beetween Tim and Helena, i feel that after the 90s they barely interacted.


It was probably for the best they stopped being close. I know you said you haven't read much of Tim's worst Pre-FP years (2004-2009), but basically him, and everyone close to him either died or had their lives go to complete crap in that time. Seriously: Steph-Dead, Cass-Turned Evil, Jack-Dead, Kon-Dead, Bart-Dead, Dick-Devin Grayson's run, Cassie-Amazons Attack and becoming an emotional wreck, Bruce- RIP and then "dead", all resulting in Tim himself becoming Edgy McEdgerson. 

If she'd still been close to Tim, I bet she'd have been killed alongside Big Barda in Birds of Prey.  :Mad:

----------


## TheCape

Most of my expirience with Tim's darkest years come from other tittles published around that time, specially Teen Titans (man, Sean's run was really bad and that whole thing beetween clonning Kon in OYL was really creepy), but i agreed, it seems like everyone close to him was having a crappy time during those years, althougth i still enjoyed his apperances in Busiek's Superman and Dini's Tec. Also, comparing him with his 90s self the Post IC was really a mental case.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Huh, that reminds me to that time when Dixon implied that Tim migth be Jewish, althougth canonically he doesn't belong to any religious group as far as we know.
> Also, i would have like to see more team ups beetween Tim and Helena, i feel that after the 90s they barely interacted.


Yeah, Tim is an atheist. Or maybe an agnostic? I mean you can't deny what doesn't exist. I don't know about his parents, but they didn't seem religious at all.

I loved their dynamic. Tim liked to annoy the hell out of Helena.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Jean-Paul

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

I wonder if JPV and Tim patched things up after the former kicked him out of the batcave, i don't remenber interacting much after Knigthfall. Also, i love how Tim enjoys the mentoring thing (even if technically Jean is already pretty trained because of "The System").

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

The red look for his red robin outfit was colored well.

----------


## KrustyKid

> The red look for his red robin outfit was colored well.


I felt the same when I first saw it

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## Dataweaver

> Favorite Tim writers, in no order:
> 
> -Puckett, Horrocks and Gabrych (Pretty sad that all of Cass's writers wrote Tim better than ANYONE on his own book in the 2000s. 
> - PAD
> - Dixon
> - Yost
> -Grant
> 
> EDIT: Wasn't happy with what I said for the other part.


I always liked Jon Lewis, as far as Tim's (and Stephanie's) character is concerned. He always got the voices right. If only he hadn't been so focused on putting weirdness into Tim's life 

I'm not particularly fond of Bill Willingham's Tim; his run was, IIRC, the origin of Tim's arrogant manipulator personality. And he seemed to be of the opinion that a writer can just make a nemesis (anyone remember Johnny Warlock? No? Me neither). That said, my opinion of him has softened a bit after learning that Stephanie's death wasn't his idea, and in fact her brief stint as Robin was his way to give her a last hurrah before the end.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I always liked Jon Lewis, as far as Tim's (and Stephanie's) character is concerned. He always got the voices right. If only he hadn't been so focused on putting weirdness into Tim's life 
> 
> I'm not particularly fond of Bill Willingham's Tim; his run was, IIRC, the origin of Tim's arrogant manipulator personality. And he seemed to be of the opinion that a writer can just make a nemesis (*anyone remember Johnny Warlock*? No? Me neither). That said, my opinion of him has softened a bit after learning that Stephanie's death wasn't his idea, and in fact her brief stint as Robin was his way to give her a last hurrah before the end.


Yea, he certainly isn't my favorite

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Man, those New 52 costumes were the pits.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Man, those New 52 costumes were the pits.


I miss the old costumes, especially the original Red Robin suit. I really want it back.

----------


## Sardorim

Cass hugging Tim was great but... Think he would be more mad over the Spoiler thing.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Cass hugging Tim was great but... Think he would be more mad over the Spoiler thing.


I'm sure we'll see his full reaction at some point, in regards to Steph

----------


## Dataweaver

…when she comes to the rescue. What, you thought she'd just sit around doing nothing when a stranger shows up out of nowhere, apologizes to her, and disappears again? Tim of the Future goofed up there.

----------


## shadowsgirl

smugness overload...

----------


## KrustyKid

> …when she comes to the rescue. What, you thought she'd just sit around doing nothing when a stranger shows up out of nowhere, apologizes to her, and disappears again? Tim of the Future goofed up there.


He certainly did.

----------


## Assam

> He certainly did.


Yeah, I expect Steph, maybe bringing along the rest of the team, getting a Big Damn Heroes moment here. 

Of course, the day will most likely be saved by Steph and/or Tim hacking someone's systems.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah, I expect Steph, maybe bringing along the rest of the team, getting a Big Damn Heroes moment here. 
> 
> Of course, the day will most likely be saved by Steph and/or Tim hacking someone's systems.


A sad truth, lol. I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I expect Steph, maybe bringing along the rest of the team, getting a Big Damn Heroes moment here. 
> 
> Of course, the day will most likely be saved by Steph and/or Tim hacking someone's systems.


Honestly, since Brother Eye is Tomorrow Tim's main tool, I think Red Robin Tim or Steph or both hacking it would not be a bad plot at all. I also really don't think that the hacking has been overused at all in this arc. But that's me. I'm inclined to be positive towards Tec and Tynion in general (even if that Batman Zero Year issue just posted does have serious smugness overload problems).

----------


## Frontier

> smugness overload...


...I hope Rebirth fixes the Robin ages at some point.

----------


## scary harpy

> smugness overload...


I love it!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Honestly, since Brother Eye is Tomorrow Tim's main tool, I think Red Robin Tim or Steph or both hacking it would not be a bad plot at all. I also really don't think that the hacking has been overused at all in this arc. But that's me. I'm inclined to be positive towards Tec and Tynion in general (even if that Batman Zero Year issue just posted does have serious smugness overload problems).


Maybe Bruce could get in on the hacking as well. Of everyone on the team no one would understand Brother Eye better than him.

----------


## The Whovian

> Honestly, since Brother Eye is Tomorrow Tim's main tool, I think Red Robin Tim or Steph or both hacking it would not be a bad plot at all. I also really don't think that the hacking has been overused at all in this arc. But that's me. I'm inclined to be positive towards Tec and Tynion in general (even if that Batman Zero Year issue just posted does have serious smugness overload problems).


I agree. Tim or Steph hacking Future Tim's Brother Eye program wouldn't be a bad plot at all. And Tim's ability to "hack" things hasn't been as prevalent since Rebirth. Tynion has done a good job of getting away from that. I just like what he's done with this book so much.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree. Tim or Steph hacking Future Tim's Brother Eye program wouldn't be a bad plot at all. And Tim's ability to "hack" things hasn't been as prevalent since Rebirth. Tynion has done a good job of getting away from that. I just like what he's done with this book so much.


Agreed. I think he's used the hacking fairly judiciously, and toned the smugness way down, though Tim still gets cocky when he does something cool.

----------


## TheCape

Honestly, a thing that i want back the most, are Tim's inner monologues, those were usually pretty damm fun and is shame that we barely see then since the reboot (granted he has been mostly in team book, when before he has a solo, b7t still), i just find then essentiall.

----------


## Aioros22

Future Tim has been hacking things since he popped up..

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Honestly, a thing that i want back the most, are Tim's inner monologues, those were usually pretty damm fun and is shame that we barely see then since the reboot (granted he has been mostly in team book, when before he has a solo, b7t still), i just find then essentiall.


This.   Real Tim was never super cocky, he was confident, but at the same time a bit unsure internally.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## sakuyamons

> Future Tim has been hacking things since he popped up..


My man gonna hack up the multiverse to bring the YJ gen Back.

----------


## The Whovian

> My man gonna hack up the multiverse to bring the YJ gen Back.


While he's at it, he can hack up Walter West, Impulse, Max Mercury, Earth 2 Superman, the JSA and the Legion too.  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



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## shadowsgirl



----------


## Red obin

> 


Never seen this before but I don't see how Tim is so bad at tennis. I know the skills may not correlate perfectly but I doubt he would completely miss and trip over, his hand eye coordination and agility should be on point surely? I know it is played up for comedic effect but this.

----------


## Assam

> Never seen this before but I don't see how Tim is so bad at tennis. I know the skills may not correlate perfectly but I doubt he would completely miss and trip over, his hand eye coordination and agility should be on point surely? I know it is played up for comedic effect but this.


Yeah, I played on my high school's tennis team and if someone in _my_ shape can be half-way decent, there's no reason Tim shouldn't be great.

----------


## TheCape

I recently re-read Teen Titans tie in for "Death In Family" and after seen it some of the comments that the Joker makes about Tim and how people refers to him in this board sometimes, i wonder of that issue wasn't trying to meta in some level.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Never seen this before but I don't see how Tim is so bad at tennis. I know the skills may not correlate perfectly but I doubt he would completely miss and trip over, his hand eye coordination and agility should be on point surely? I know it is played up for comedic effect but this.


He is just acting like a drama queen here.  :Big Grin:  He is not that bad actually, just Greg is really good. Greg was the one who invited him on the team, so Tim is a rookie compared to him. Tim played tennis before in their backyard, but he never played in professional level. That's why he is upset. He wants to be really good at everything, and he can't stand when someone defeats him. He just needs some practice and Greg will be in serious trouble. 

He played for fun at home:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

Oh, Ok, yeah, it looked like it from the art, but that scene coming from post-OYL explains why I didn't recognize it.

----------


## godisawesome

> I recently re-read Teen Titans tie in for "Death In Family" and after seen it some of the comments that the Joker makes about Tim and how people refers to him in this board sometimes, i wonder of that issue wasn't trying to meta in some level.


The TT issues of the crossover were given dialogue by Fabian Niceza, who had no problem doing some meta-commentary in earlier dialogues issues, so...

----------


## shadowsgirl

Heh, Tim really hates to lose. Just like his friends.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

I miss Young Justice.

----------


## Assam

> I miss Young Justice.


I fragging love that election issue; maybe one of my favorites. I don't think there will ever be a team book I love more. 

voting slobo.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> The TT issues of the crossover were given dialogue by Fabian Niceza, who had no problem doing some meta-commentary in earlier dialogues issues, so...


True, how much of that issue is true to his characther thougth?
T4bEFD1NXtHxfP30xCnjX4bU8cim05YLVrUPCPiA1U6gbJvoDh8ebapW-9ZDCCUZAiqIQ2nLj6r8=s1600.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

> True, how much of that issue is true to his characther thougth?
> T4bEFD1NXtHxfP30xCnjX4bU8cim05YLVrUPCPiA1U6gbJvoDh8ebapW-9ZDCCUZAiqIQ2nLj6r8=s1600.jpg


I honestly can't tell; what we've got there is story and character points regarding Joker from Scott Snyder in a story plotted and planned by Scott Lobdell with dialogue provided by Fabian Nicieza. We've got no idea how much of the layout and actual actions in the book are defined before or after FabNic gets ahold of the book. Did his dialogue responsibilities include scene layout and art directions, or was that already provided in Lobdell's outline? The bit where Tim's monologue critically evaluates the wings of his Swan Queen outfit *may* be some of FabNic's own criticisms coming through, and the same *may* apply to the Joker's portraying fo Tim as being too perfect. But that could also be the general gist of Lobdell and Snyder's instructions.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## shadowsgirl

Kon is the mom  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Ah, those times when Tim has a fun civilian life, or just a civilian life at all.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

https://bobbenkatzen.deviantart.com/...sign-374770089

CBR had an article for fan redesigns and tim had a good look to me. any thoughts?

----------


## Dataweaver

I like. But frankly, all that the original RR costume needed was to replace the cowl — even a half-cowl like what Kid Flash or Geo-Force wears would be a vast improvement, and the rest could stay the same. Though my personal favorite involved replacing the cowl with high-tech goggles: something that more clearly says “functional”.

----------


## TheCape

I finally read all Tim's golden years from Dixon's minis througth Lewis run and i had to said, that it was a nice ride, Dixon did a great job defining the characther and the world around him, he should be the gold standard about writting Drake. Lewis run was... weird but still enjoyable, in spite of the dtrange menaces and wtf moments (what was the deal beetween Jack and that godess????!!!!), his voice for boths Tim and Steph were pretty good and i enjoyed the "Traitor" storyline (seriously Bruce, that was a dick move). I also read the first 5 issues of Williams run and wow, that was bad, after 120 issues of quality (not the same quality, but at worst it was solid), i find myself really not exicited for what is to come, Tim's attitudes is off putting in so many ways, that doesn't really fit with his previous run, specially i dislike the implication that he never took the job seriously, look, i know that Tim fans sort of exagerate the part of Tim being "The Serious Robin", but this is the guy that at some point of his run, feel sick for being responsible of the death of a person, he didn't consider the whole thing a game, he knew what he was getting into.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

> https://bobbenkatzen.deviantart.com/...sign-374770089
> 
> CBR had an article for fan redesigns and tim had a good look to me. any thoughts?


That is nice but now I'm just thinking how amazing Dick was in YJ for some reason. Until Tim has more of a memorable part of YJ I would still clear if anything inspired by it.

I was always a fan of this 



because it's Tim's. It doesn't remind me if any other hero and I love the flair.

----------


## CPSparkles

You know I wish we had more scenes like these from Blackest Night.





then maybe there won't be so much hate. More levity to reduce the bitterness of the situation.

But then I guess 1st they have to give us more Damian, Tim and Bruce working/interacting together which doesn't seem likely.

----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Nice, I love this

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## scary harpy

> That is nice but now I'm just thinking how amazing Dick was in YJ for some reason. Until Tim has more of a memorable part of YJ I would still clear if anything inspired by it.
> 
> I was always a fan of this 
> 
> 
> 
> because it's Tim's. It doesn't remind me if any other hero and I love the flair.


I love it too.

----------


## shadowsgirl

These are so funny  :Big Grin: 

- Is your refrigerator running?
- Yes, of course. Why?
- YOU'RE GAY!!  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yes, it is Conner who is clapping for Tim. And Joker actually throws his underwear to Dick.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## 9th.

> That is nice but now I'm just thinking how amazing Dick was in YJ for some reason. Until Tim has more of a memorable part of YJ I would still clear if anything inspired by it.
> 
> I was always a fan of this 
> 
> 
> 
> because it's Tim's. It doesn't remind me if any other hero and I love the flair.


I love this look, dont know why people prefer the double R costume.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Because it's close to his original badass costume.

I don't mind the new 52 except for the cape.

----------


## godisawesome

To me, it's mostly just a pure hate for the wings.

----------


## 9th.

> Because it's close to his original badass costume.
> 
> I don't mind the new 52 except for the cape.


I like the original too but the double R is too close especially since he's not robin anymore. The new costume just screams robin instead of Red Robin.

----------


## godisawesome

My biggest fear now is that Tynion and DC's goal in rehabilitating Tim was returning him to a vague status quo from circa Geoff Johns's Titans run; this would mean not referring to the great stuff at the beginning of Tim's career (too much Steph, Cass, Cop!Dick, and Jean Paul too allow them to focus on that) and the good stuff at the end of his solos (since Tynion seems to dislike the Red Robin suit as Tim's, and they refuse to clarify what the immediate past was like.) Which is a shame, because as much as I liked Johns's TT, the super-hacker Tim resembles the mad scientist Tim Johns wrote, and it's arguably the most boring time for the character.

I mean, it's far more important to have fun reading the character than to be impressed by techno-babble; Dixon focused on a Tim who used cunning gambits, and Nicieza focused on strategy, and both are far more engaging to me than bad melodrama about cloning your buddy or hacking someone's guns. And the issues we have with his suit are largely based in the idea of Tim's identity being stuck in stasis: is he a graduate Robin, or Robin B to Damian's Robin A?

----------


## Vinsanity

> My biggest fear now is that Tynion and DC's goal in rehabilitating Tim was returning him to a vague status quo from circa Geoff Johns's Titans run; this would mean not referring to the great stuff at the beginning of Tim's career (too much Steph, Cass, Cop!Dick, and Jean Paul too allow them to focus on that) and the good stuff at the end of his solos (since Tynion seems to dislike the Red Robin suit as Tim's, and they refuse to clarify what the immediate past was like.) Which is a shame, because as much as I liked Johns's TT, the super-hacker Tim resembles the mad scientist Tim Johns wrote, and it's arguably the most boring time for the character.
> 
> I mean, it's far more important to have fun reading the character than to be impressed by techno-babble; Dixon focused on a Tim who used cunning gambits, and Nicieza focused on strategy, and both are far more engaging to me than bad melodrama about cloning your buddy or hacking someone's guns. And the issues we have with his suit are largely based in the idea of Tim's identity being stuck in stasis: is he a graduate Robin, or Robin B to Damian's Robin A?


I disliked Johns' Tim more than Lobdell's Tim and that's saying something.

----------


## TheCape

> I mean, it's far more important to have fun reading the character than to be impressed by techno-babble; Dixon focused on a Tim who used cunning gambits, and Nicieza focused on strategy, and both are far more engaging to me than bad melodrama about cloning your buddy or hacking someone's guns. And the issues we have with his suit are largely based in the idea of Tim's identity being stuck in stasis: is he a graduate Robin, or Robin B to Damian's Robin A?


I'm still baffled lf the directio  that Tim's jntelligence took, putting on Tony Stark levels, i don't had  much problem with superacking, but creating self repairing buildings, jesus, i know that Tim tried to clone Kon at one point, but he failed at that. Hell even when his intelligence increased before the reboot, it wasn't on this level.

----------


## CPSparkles

You know what they say about tiny feet Tim? 



jason: what ya got there?
dick: a tiny timmers!
dick: look their little cape billowing in the wind
jason: dont let dami see it, tiny timbo will be shurikend before you can say clarks your uncle
dick: damis not that meani think
tim: dick, have you met the brat wonder??
dick:

----------


## shadowsgirl

After Kon and Bart's series were cancelled, this conversation in Young Justice was spot on.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> 



And then Tim wrote about his amazing victory in his diary.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

young_justice_by_jojody-d5knsh2.jpg
yj_robin_by_jojody-d5ybant.jpg
Some YJ cartoons fanartwork.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Ah man, Ives was cool, sad that we haven't seen it since the reboot. Also, if that issue written by Dixon?.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah man, Ives was cool, sad that we haven't seen it since the reboot. Also, if that issue written by Dixon?.


Yup, it's from his 6 issue comeback where he brought back Steph.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ah man, Ives was cool, sad that we haven't seen it since the reboot. Also, if that issue written by Dixon?.


Yes, these pages are from issue 173. He wrote Tim's series again from issue 170 to issue 174, but then he left DC all of a sudden.

----------


## TheCape

> Yup, it's from his 6 issue comeback where he brought back Steph.*


Figured, the writting seemed familiar, rigth now i'm reading Willingham run and man 5 issues in and i want out, that scene was closer to the Tim that i remebber. Hell, even with all his weirdeness Lewis run actually managed to feel like a sequel of Dixon's, getting Tim and Steph voices almost perfectly.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Dataweaver

Can't he read the outside of an envelope?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Can't he read the outside of an envelope?


Cass said that it's for him. He just simply trusted her.  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

And the boy's just too inquisitive for his own good.

----------


## CPSparkles

That was pretty funny

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

> 


Love a good Tim/Steph kiss.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Love a good Tim/Steph kiss.


It's a really sweet picture.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

I was reading "Electric City" on Tec's Dixon and i thougth that it was pretty entertaining. So do you guys have any particular favorite Bruce/Tim story as the dynamic duo?.

----------


## Assam

> So do you guys have any particular favorite Bruce/Tim story as the dynamic duo?.


Off the top of my head and JUST stories with the two of them? 

batboy.jpg

Maybe this?

----------


## Frontier

> I was reading "Electric City" on Tec's Dixon and i thougth that it was pretty entertaining. So do you guys have any particular favorite Bruce/Tim story as the dynamic duo?.


"A Lonely Place of Dying."

That issue where Batman approves of Tim at the end of Knightfall.

That issue where thugs recount getting beat up by Batman and one of them tries to hide the fact that Robin took him down.

That one 'Tec story where Bruce and Tim have to deal with a terrorist(?) in Wayne Enterprises together.

There's probably more I'm forgetting  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

bc34bc6b4d446c136d9e4dacb9e408cd--batman-comics-batman-family.jpg
This is probably the moment that made me fan of Tim.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> bc34bc6b4d446c136d9e4dacb9e408cd--batman-comics-batman-family.jpg
> This is probably the moment that made me fan of Tim.


The good old times when Tim was actually loveable and not an obnoxious super hacker genius. That series was so good, but the Screw52 ruined everything. The new Tim is acting like he is Felicity and Cisco's lovechild on speed.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> The good old times when Tim was actually loveable and not an obnoxious super hacker genius. That series was so good, but the Screw52 ruined everything. The new Tim is acting like he is Felicity and Cisco's lovechild on speed.


Hahaha, that is awesome, I'm going to have to use that, "Screw52."

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Hahaha, that is awesome, I'm going to have to use that, "Screw52."


Have you not heard that before? I thought it's a common term for that clusterfuck of a reboot.  :Big Grin:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I just started reading again this year, I quit comics right before Flashpoint.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I just started reading again this year, I quit comics right before Flashpoint.


You picked the right time to leave. You jumped ship before the ship started to sink.

----------


## Assam

> You picked the right time to leave. You jumped ship before the ship started to sink.


Yeah, once I'd given any books I might have been interested in a chance and realized that yes, they were almost *all* crap, the only book from the initial line-up I followed was the saving grace that was Aquaman. And I wasn't even paying attention to what was going on in the DCU or anything, just going to the shop once a month to pick up Aquaman and that was it. Aquaman and the Others and Secret Six were the other titles I ended up enjoying, but it wasn't until Batman and Robin Eternal that I actually came back to DC for real.

----------


## Dataweaver

Convergence brought me back.

----------


## Assam

> Convergence brought me back.


Oh right, forgot about that. I didn't read any of the main book, but I did pick up a number of the tie-ins.

----------


## godisawesome

I wound up sticking around for a while in the New 52, since I had some hope and, to be honest, there were some strong starts on the first wave. But then the chaotic nature of the whole thing slowly consumed almost all the books and characters I loved, especially in Teen Titans. I could understand the rather shallow, marketing-directed thinking that made some serious mistakes (everything about the female bat-members) but it was only after the writing took a dive as time went on and editorial edicts started trying to make everything into the 90's at Marvel that I really dropped it. We actually did a podcast on it and what eventually sank it: https://www.buzzsprout.com/132209/58...ew-52-analysis

As to the earlier question about everyone's favorite Tim and Bruce team-ups, it may be weird, but I kind of love that story arc where King Snake returned for Robin after the first mini-series and Bats had to beat him down. Tim and Bruce tended to have a more "professional partnership" vibe going on; Bruce was kind of like Dirty Harry, while Tim was the partner who understands what the track record is.

----------


## TheCape

> As to the earlier question about everyone's favorite Tim and Bruce team-ups, it may be weird, but I kind of love that story arc where King Snake returned for Robin after the first mini-series and Bats had to beat him down. Tim and Bruce tended to have a more "professional partnership" vibe going on; Bruce was kind of like Dirty Harry, while Tim was the partner who understands what the track record is.


Yeah, that's one of my favorites too, is also the official deploitment of the Bruce/Tim duo and i really enjoyed the teacher and student vibe from their dymamic, it feel pretty well balanced for the most part and i think that it made the moment in RR #12 more powerfull.

----------


## TheCape

I had been thinking about what kind of proffesion an adult Tim Drake would have in civilian mode and the one that keep poping in my head is him being an english teacher. 

Any thoughts?.

----------


## RedBird

> I had been thinking about what kind of proffesion an adult Tim Drake would have in civilian mode and the one that keep poping in my head is him being an english teacher. 
> 
> Any thoughts?.


Actually I want to ask, why you feel an English Teacher would suit Tim in particular?

Also to throw an idea into the pot, how about *a detective*? :P

I get its overused but seriously he was a curious and clever kid who would hunt down mysteries.

I feel like collecting evidence, interrogating suspects and examining records is right up his alley. It is work that is much less physically focused which can be a Tims weakness (at least compared to the majority of heroes villains and metas that the DCU contains). Plus I always felt Tim was a great manipulator, someone who could get inside his opponents head and analyze them, which would defiantly help with interrogations.

----------


## TheCape

@RedBird
Mostly for is know it all nerd attitude that he has in the old days (mostly played for laughts), being a bit more "square" than his friends,his obssesion with being the best sidekick possible to Batman wich lead to be a bit overcompesating and anoyinf toward the people around him (unless that they were Bruce and Dick) and his desire for a normal life (that was his main conflict, he wanted to do his part as a hero and then leave, but how much is enougth?), i can see him trying to get himself away from any kind of vigilante life and getting himself into a more mundane and boring setting, trying to teach people in the best possible way, but not to kids, Damian let him too traumatized  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I actually agreed with the rest of your idea, althougth Tim wasn't the super genius of this days, he always has a natural knack for detective work and getting into the heads of the criminals (wich if you ask me, was tad too worrisome for a kid of that age), the caveat is that i can see Tim getting to lost in that job and letting the most negative aspects of himself take hold (wich sort of happened on Nicieza's Robin and Red Robin run), is the main reason why he always put himself down in comparison with Dick about taking Batman's cowl, Dick has the mental strenght to not lost himself in it, Tim doesn't and after what he saw about his evil future version, he got a confirmation of it and doesn't like it one bit

----------


## Dataweaver

Detective, and/or some sort of manager. Tim isn't a charismatic leader the way that Dick is; but he _does_ have a knack for organizing and directing, and an interest in getting more done than one person can possibly do.

----------


## Assam

Tim's true future: 

Hell it.jpg

----------


## TheCape

Isn't that what Donatello was doing in the TMNT 2007 film  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Tim had computer skills pre-screw52, but he was not the uber hacker he is now.  He could probably be a developer or work in cyber security.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

He is such a dork XD

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

The first and last ones are my favorites, Tim's inner monologues under Dixon always make me chuckle.

----------


## Assam

Question for those of you who know Tim's book better than I do: Did he ever have a canonical favorite flavor of ice cream? Because if not, he's now the only Batkid whose favorite we don't know.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Question for those of you who know Tim's book better than I do: Did he ever have a canonical favorite flavor of ice cream? Because if not, he's now the only Batkid whose favorite we don't know.


I don't remember it. I know he drank a lot of Zesti Cola, and his favourite pizza combo was Canadian Bacon and onion with artichoke hearts, but I don't think he ever mentioned which ice-cream is his favourite. Maybe chocolate?

----------


## Assam

> I don't remember it. I know he drank a lot of Zesti Cola, and his favourite pizza combo was Canadian Bacon and onion with artichoke hearts, but I don't think he ever mentioned which ice-cream is his favourite.* Maybe chocolate?*


That's already Cass's favorite so I want to think there's something else he prefers. RebirthTim probably LOVES vanilla. 

Also, the second I have access to a kitchen that I don't have to keep Kosher, I am going to try my hand at actually making pizza with Canadian bacon, onion and artichoke hearts.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That's already Cass's favorite so I want to think there's something else he prefers. RebirthTim probably LOVES vanilla. 
> 
> Also, the second I have access to a kitchen that I don't have to keep Kosher, I am going to try my hand at actually making pizza with Canadian bacon, onion and artichoke hearts.


But why exactly vanilla? It's the most boring ice-cream flavor ever. I vote for banana instead.  :Big Grin: 

It's sounds interesting, so hopefully it will be tasty.  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

Why Ives has black hair there?

----------


## Assam

> But why exactly vanilla? It's the most boring ice-cream flavor


Exactly! Just like RebirthTim

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Why Ives has black hair there?


I think the colorist didn't pay attention.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Exactly! Just like RebirthTim


Auch. But you're right. Rebirth Tim is not a good character. Tim lost everything what made him interesting.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Seduction of the Gun

----------


## shadowsgirl

Buzz, Kip and Tim

----------


## TheCape

I remenber that gun storyline, a bit preachy but entertaining. I miss Tim's private school cast, they were pretty interesting, is.weird that the skate girl and Tim never speaked again.

----------


## TheCape

Also, i was reading the Tim Drake tag on tumblr and i'm surprised the quantity of headcanons and jokes about coffe, how that became thing?.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I remenber that gun storyline, a bit preachy but entertaining. I miss Tim's private school cast, they were pretty interesting, is.weird that the skate girl and Tim never speaked again.


They met one more time in Batman: The Ankh

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

> Also, i was reading the Tim Drake tag on tumblr and i'm surprised the quantity of headcanons and jokes about coffe, how that became thing?.


Because Tim has a serious narcolepsy problem. XDXD

----------


## TheCape

Oh yeah, that was always kind of funny.

----------


## Assam

> Also, i was reading the Tim Drake tag on tumblr and i'm surprised the quantity of headcanons and jokes about coffe, how that became thing?.


I don't know exactly how it started, but its been a thing for awhile. I guess the mindset behind it is: Computer Nerd + Workaholic = Stays up all night and so needs coffee to function. Plus, as shown above, yeah, he did kind of fall asleep in the middle of the day a lot.

----------


## TheCape

I had to said, that panel of " Just shoot i'm too tired to care" was gold.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_oxe9b2pR1z1ueiwawo1_1280.jpg
Robin #77
That time when Tim tried to save the Batmanized Lankstrong family.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko1_400.jpg
Transition

----------


## godisawesome

> Attachment 58008
> Transition


Beautiful work, but...

... I'm sorry but I feel this just continues to show how the New 52 Red Robin suit regresses Tim's look too much. I understand people's problems with the cowl, but I still feel that the breakup in the profile and aesthetics that the cowl brings are needed to make the name change feel significant. Nightwing breaks out a new color scheme; Red Hood brings in a whole new design theory and a helmet; even Damian has the hood and collar to make him look different from his predecessors.

Both the New 52 and Rebirth suits feel like missteps to me; the only real difference is that the New 52 has the stupid wings and over clutters the Marcus To modified Ross design, while the Rebirth one simply tries to copy and paste the original Neal Adams design.

----------


## Dataweaver

IMHO, Tim could have taken on the “Red Robin” moniker as early as his switch to the mostly-red DCAU-inspired costume at the start of One Year Later. Prior to that, he had a strong balance of red and green in his costume. As such, I consider his Rebirth costume much more of a misstep than his N52 costume, even though I personally prefer the former. 

To this day, my favorite Red Robin costume is the one we saw him wearing in the Ünternet.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Sister Ninja

----------


## shadowsgirl

Sister Ninja strikes again

----------


## TheCape

What issues are those?.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> What issues are those?.


Detective Comics #661

Robin #006

----------


## TheCape

Thanks. Some of those panels seemed familiar but couldn't place then.

----------


## Assam

Wow this is sad.  :Frown: 

gone but not forgotten.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks. Some of those panels seemed familiar but couldn't place then.


You're welcome  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Wow this is sad. 
> 
> gone but not forgotten.jpg


I miss the gang so much.  :Frown:

----------


## TheCape

DETECTIVE COMICS #974

"Knight's Fall."*Can Tim Drake piece his dreams back together after Batwoman's fateful decision, or will the Gotham Knights go their separate ways?

DETECTIVE COMICS #975

"The Trial of Batwoman." In a 30-page anniversary story, Batwoman faces scrutiny from Batman and Red Robin but stands up for her actions. Will Batman allow her to continue bearing his symbol after everything she has done?

Any thougths about this solicits?.

----------


## TheCape

Also this.

INJUSTICE 2 #19
Written by TOM TAYLOR
Art by DANIEL SAMPERE
Cover by DALE KEOWN
Plastic Man reaches into the Phantom Zone in search of the Teen Titans, trapped there by Superman. A happy reunion seems to be in the cards, but Plas brings back a stowaway and catastrophe follows. An enraged Batman prepares to unleash a secret weapon.
On sale FEBRUARY 7 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T • DIGITAL FIRST

----------


## godisawesome

> DETECTIVE COMICS #974
> 
> "Knight's Fall."*Can Tim Drake piece his dreams back together after Batwoman's fateful decision, or will the Gotham Knights go their separate ways?
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #975
> 
> "The Trial of Batwoman." In a 30-page anniversary story, Batwoman faces scrutiny from Batman and Red Robin but stands up for her actions. Will Batman allow her to continue bearing his symbol after everything she has done?
> 
> Any thougths about this solicits?.


My hope? Tim's dreams are elements of more Pre-Flashpoint tales reentering his memory. My actual prediction? More stuff from the Batwoman future.

----------


## KrustyKid

> DETECTIVE COMICS #974
> 
> "Knight's Fall."*Can Tim Drake *piece his dreams back together after Batwoman's fateful decision*, or will the Gotham Knights go their separate ways?
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #975
> 
> "The Trial of Batwoman." In a 30-page anniversary story, Batwoman faces scrutiny from Batman and Red Robin but stands up for her actions. Will Batman allow her to continue bearing his symbol after everything she has done?
> 
> Any thougths about this solicits?.


I imagine Tim will try to prevent his dark future from coming to pass.

----------


## Dataweaver

> My hope? Tim's dreams are elements of more Pre-Flashpoint tales reentering his memory. My actual prediction? More stuff from the Batwoman future.


I don't think it means literal dreams; I think it's referring to the stuff that he spoke so enthusiastically about in the flashbacks with Bruce and Stephanie in the issues where he was “dead”, both of which involved taking the Gotham Knights and expanding them into a large organization of do-gooders.

----------


## TheCape

So Tim appeared in TT this week, wich comfirm that he is going to have some involment with the croosover. My biggest fear is that it would reignite the bile beetween Tim and Damian fanbases (i know that it never left, but canon wise it died down), so.... any thougths?

----------


## Assam

> So Tim appeared in TT this week, wich comfirm that he is going to have some involment with the croosover. My biggest fear is that it would reignite the bile beetween Tim and Damian fanbases (i know that it never left, but canon wise it died down), *so.... any thougths?*


I love fan wars that don't involve me. They're just so much fun to watch.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

I usually stay out or ignore those (this is why i'm not in the Nsruto fandom), but there is just so much shit that you can tolerate when you put your head in the sand.

----------


## adrikito

> So Tim appeared in TT this week, wich comfirm that he is going to have some involment with the croosover. My biggest fear is that it would reignite the bile beetween Tim and Damian fanbases (i know that it never left, but canon wise it died down), so.... any thougths?


He looked angry in the last image.. I think that the things between these fanbases can´t improve..

He remembers the Tomorrow Tim words about Damian..

----------


## Assam

> I usually stay out or ignore those (this is why i'm not in the Nsruto fandom), but there is just so much shit that you can tolerate when you put your head in the sand.


For me, I can sit back and enjoy fanwars that involve characters I like so long as they aren't one of my faves. And much as I like Tim at times, I wouldn't classify him as a favorite of mine.

----------


## godisawesome

Tim and Damian actually have a strong likelihood for being a great buddy cop duo... Provided no one goes out of their way to _badly_ job one out to the other, and I do mean badly; skilled and intelligent jobbing with a purpose can be acceptable. Morrison had Damian sucker-punch Tim, but did so after showing Tim using his brain to easily outmanuver and then save Damian while being on the defensive, and the purpose of the moment was to show Damian's character issues. Nicieza than had the Red Robin issue where Tim's _way_ too obvious contingency plan for Damian going bad exposed Tim's paranoia and the fight scene was clearly based around Tim being physically larger.

Really, I think Damian and Tim should almost always anger each other, but also be all about protecting each other, like in Gates of Gotham.

----------


## Assam

> Really, I think Damian and Tim should almost always anger each other, but also be all about protecting each other, like in Gates of Gotham.


Can we just base _everything_ for the kids' relationships off Gates of Gotham? Yeah, obviously you've got to work Jason into the dynamics too, but everything as presented in GoG with the other four was so good.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tim and Damian actually have a strong likelihood for being a great buddy cop duo... Provided no one goes out of their way to _badly_ job one out to the other, and I do mean badly; skilled and intelligent jobbing with a purpose can be acceptable. Morrison had Damian sucker-punch Tim, but did so after showing Tim using his brain to easily outmanuver and then save Damian while being on the defensive, and the purpose of the moment was to show Damian's character issues. Nicieza than had the Red Robin issue where Tim's _way_ too obvious contingency plan for Damian going bad exposed Tim's paranoia and the fight scene was clearly based around Tim being physically larger.
> 
> Really, I think Damian and Tim should almost always anger each other, but also be all about protecting each other, like in Gates of Gotham.


Damian and his titans are already way better then Tims run    he should just start  Young jsutice and take BB and and kid flash and raven, let them be 17 forever doing nothing

----------


## Aioros22

> He looked angry in the last image.. I think that the things between these fanbases can´t improve..
> 
> He remembers the Tomorrow Tim words about Damian..

----------


## TheCape

If it goes down like this, i can stomach it :Big Grin: 
latest.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> 


Damn, lol. 

My dude here already getting their popcorn ready.

----------


## TheCape

Ahh.... crapbaskets, the gif didn't work  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Ahh.... crapbaskets, the gif didn't work


Don't worry, I know that show well enough to know what scene that is.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

This the page by the way.
RCO021.jpg
I starting to think that Timmy shouldn't look people in monitors, he is creepy  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> This the page by the way.
> RCO021.jpg
> I starting to think that Timmy shouldn't look people in monitors, he is creepy .


Tim looks more worried than angry. Who can blame him, given the he'll his other self kinda put him through mentally.

Gates of Gotham is a good one for a start.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> This the page by the way.
> Attachment 58196
> I starting to think that Timmy shouldn't look people in monitors, he is creepy .


what comic is that from?

----------


## adrikito

> what comic is that from?


Teen Titans 14, the last page.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Thanks to a comment of dietrich, i remenbered Tim's animosity toward cats, now is the time to see it again.
tumblr_inline_nnqli1Gunw1sz7x1l_500.jpg
tumblr_inline_mkaamnF47y1qz4rgp.jpg

----------


## TheCape

Also, from what comic is this image?
tumblr_inline_mkaajwWXxg1qz4rgp.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Thanks to a comment of dietrich, i remenbered Tim's animosity toward cats, now is the time to see it again.
> tumblr_inline_nnqli1Gunw1sz7x1l_500.jpg
> tumblr_inline_mkaamnF47y1qz4rgp.jpg


The true reason Damian hates Tim, revealed at last! 

Cass would also be rather pissed if she found out about this.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Also, from what comic is this image?
> tumblr_inline_mkaajwWXxg1qz4rgp.jpg


Detective Comics #803





This is even more cute. It's from Detective Comics #808

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thanks to a comment of dietrich, i remenbered Tim's animosity toward cats, now is the time to see it again.


But he likes cats.

----------


## Rac7d*

Don’t worry about Tim Drake! His inability to find a place to belong, especially now that he’s seen the world without him and he’s seen his terrible future, will lead him to his ultimate destiny: to become Harvest!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Dont worry about Tim Drake! His inability to find a place to belong, especially now that hes seen the world without him and hes seen his terrible future, will lead him to his ultimate destiny: to become Harvest!


Now that would be a crazy reveal, hahahahaha!

----------


## TheCape

After Graduation Day, it seems to be a kind of common future for Tim, turning into a sort of villain or at least a darker man than this days.

----------


## Assam

Did you guys know that Tim has appeared in the 20th most comics of any DC character? And if you only count heroes, he's 14th? I guess it's not that surprising considering the many books he's been a lead in,  he's been around since '89 and the closest he's ever come to limbo was his recent capture by Oz, but still...damn.

----------


## TheCape

> Did you guys know that Tim has appeared in the 20th most comics of any DC character? And if you only count heroes, he's 14th? I guess it's not that surprising considering the many books he's been a lead in, he's been around since '89 and the closest he's ever come to limbo was his recent capture by Oz, but still...damn.


I'm guessing that you mean more apperances?, if that the case, well Tim had a sucessfull solo that lasted 183 issues, that's not something that many non A lister characthers can presume about it, he is decently popular among the comic book niche, is the main reason of why he wasn't erased wkth the reboot. Being the modern interpretation of sidekick characther (played straigth) probably helped.

----------


## Assam

> I'm guessing that you mean more apperances?, if that the case, well Tim had a sucessfull solo that lasted 183 issues, that's not something that many non A lister characthers can presume about it, he is decently popular among the comic book niche, is the main reason of why he wasn't erased wkth the reboot. Being the modern interpretation of sidekick characther (played straigth) probably helped.


Yeah I'm talking appearances. Comicvine has a page that shows how many appearances every single DC character has had and puts them in order. Tim is sandwiched between Dinah and Wally, not having a chance of catching up to the former, and the latter doesn't have a chance of catching up to him. (Blame the Nu52 for that)

----------


## Frontier

> Did you guys know that Tim has appeared in the 20th most comics of any DC character? And if you only count heroes, he's 14th? I guess it's not that surprising considering the many books he's been a lead in,  he's been around since '89 and the closest he's ever come to limbo was his recent capture by Oz, but still...damn.


The perks of being Robin  :Smile: .

----------


## godisawesome

It's also the perks of only being "killed" for one year, and with them immediately confirming it was only "killed" and not "Dan Didio thinks this character being dead will help sell the seriousness of the story"-killed.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The perks of being Robin .


Is he gonna contiue using the name robin or whatnot....

----------


## TheCape

So Tomasi is writting most of the next monthcroosover, Percy is new territory, but i wanted to know your general opinions on his take on Tim.

----------


## millernumber1

> So Tomasi is writting most of the next monthcroosover, Percy is new territory, but i wanted to know your general opinions on his take on Tim.


Well. I'm going to be up front and say I dislike Tomasi in general as a writer (because he seems to approve of Damian and Bruce's being a jerk, and also because of his dislike of Cass), but I did a readthrough of all of Tim's appearances in the n52 (except for Teen Titans, which is kind of cheating, but also, why would I do that to myself?  :Wink:  ), and Tomasi's take on him is that Tim is a stick-up-his-sit-me-down-upon, holier-than-thou, less-cool-than-Damian fake Robin.

Not my fave.

----------


## Frontier

> So Tomasi is writting most of the next monthcroosover, Percy is new territory, but i wanted to know your general opinions on his take on Tim.


I mean, he's going to be dealing with Titans Tomorrow Tim, so it feels kind of moot, but I can't recall any of Tim that I've read from him that bothered me. 

I at least think he's able to write 90% of the characters that are going to be appearing in that story.

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean, he's going to be dealing with Titans Tomorrow Tim, so it feels kind of moot, but I can't recall any of Tim that I've read from him that bothered me. 
> 
> I at least think he's able to write 90% of the characters that are going to be appearing in that story.


The most recent Teen Titans showed current Tim at the end, so I think there's a good chance he'll be showing up too.

----------


## Frontier

> The most recent Teen Titans showed current Tim at the end, so I think there's a good chance he'll be showing up too.


Oh, well then...I better catch up on that book  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, well then...I better catch up on that book .


I'm not caught up, but I'm just going to keep an eye on the crossover (and also watch the Damian and Tim fans explode).  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> I'm not caught up, but I'm just going to keep an eye on the crossover (and also watch the Damian and Tim fans explode).*


The croosover would lead to an epic rap battle
tumblr_inline_n74dzriEyz1rzhlpe.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> The croosover would lead to an epic rap battle
> tumblr_inline_n74dzriEyz1rzhlpe.jpg


That thug life getting to be too much for the Robins!

----------


## sakuyamons

> So Tomasi is writting most of the next monthcroosover, Percy is new territory, but i wanted to know your general opinions on his take on Tim.


I don’t think Tomasi is a fan of the character, but I’m looking forward to see how he writes Tim of Tomorrow (and present Tim, if he appears). I’m already reading the three books so it’s cool, and it has to be better than Lazarus Contract.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don’t think Tomasi is a fan of the character, but I’m looking forward to see how he writes Tim of Tomorrow (and present Tim, if he appears). I’m already reading the three books so it’s cool, and it has to be better than Lazarus Contract.


Oh, man. You'd think it'd be better than Lazarus Contract...but I have no faith.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Well, with Tomasi at least Damian will be better written  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, with Tomasi at least Damian will be better written .


Well. I liked Damian in Lazarus Contract. Certainly better than I like him in Super Sons (which I just caught up on last night).  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Well. I liked Damian in Lazarus Contract. Certainly better than I like him in Super Sons (which I just caught up on last night).


Well, let's agree to disagree on that front  :Smile: .

----------


## sakuyamons

> Well. I liked Damian in Lazarus Contract. Certainly better than I like him in Super Sons (which I just caught up on last night).


Damian in Gleason’s R:SOB >>>>>>  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But all opinions are subjective. I think thst Tomasi might do decent with Tim if he shows up in the Supersons of Tomorrow (and he should, since his Evil Counterpart is there and all).

Tynion commented something about the Titans in tec 950 (iirc) so he must remember them? But Nukon was part of the TT, so I’m a bit confused

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, let's agree to disagree on that front .


I mean, we could. Or you could explain how I'm wrong, and vice versa. I personally think that while Jon is super sweet, he's not old enough or confident enough to stop Damian from dominating the story and moral perspective of the book. Damian needs a Dick, Steph, or Maya - someone who actually has the weight of experience to call him on his meanness and selfishness - to make him a strong character. (Starfire could do it, but Percy is writing her as much more of a wallflower than he should, I think).




> Damian in Gleason’s R:SOB >>>>>> 
> 
> But all opinions are subjective. I think thst Tomasi might do decent with Tim if he shows up in the Supersons of Tomorrow (and he should, since his Evil Counterpart is there and all).
> 
> Tynion commented something about the Titans in tec 950 (iirc) so he must remember them? But Nukon was part of the TT, so I’m a bit confused


I do like Robin, Son of Batman. Is that a bad thing? I can't quite tell.

Opinions are subjects - but they're just "I like this" or "I dislike that." You can make at least semi-objective statements about how a character's morality dominates a narrative, or what the message of a narrative is.

I'm pretty sure a fair chunk of n52 Teen Titans are now retconned, per A Lonely Place of Living. But we'll have to wait and see.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I mean, we could. Or you could explain how I'm wrong, and vice versa. I personally think that while Jon is super sweet, he's not old enough or confident enough to stop Damian from dominating the story and moral perspective of the book. Damian needs a Dick, Steph, or Maya - someone who actually has the weight of experience to call him on his meanness and selfishness - to make him a strong character. (Starfire could do it, but Percy is writing her as much more of a wallflower than he should, I think).
> 
> 
> 
> I do like Robin, Son of Batman. Is that a bad thing? I can't quite tell.
> 
> Opinions are subjects - but they're just "I like this" or "I dislike that." You can make at least semi-objective statements about how a character's morality dominates a narrative, or what the message of a narrative is.
> 
> I'm pretty sure a fair chunk of n52 Teen Titans are now retconned, per A Lonely Place of Living. But we'll have to wait and see.


It's down to personal taste I think you give Steph and Maya too much credit they might comment on Damian's attitude but they have zero influence over how he acts. It's just that the banter is fun same as Jon except that Jon is younger and more prensoable so their dynamic works even more.

Gleason's Damian is great but Seeley's and Tomasi are my favourite.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean, we could. Or you could explain how I'm wrong, and vice versa. I personally think that while Jon is super sweet, he's not old enough or confident enough to stop Damian from dominating the story and moral perspective of the book. Damian needs a Dick, Steph, or Maya - someone who actually has the weight of experience to call him on his meanness and selfishness - to make him a strong character. (Starfire could do it, but Percy is writing her as much more of a wallflower than he should, I think).


Frankly I feel like Jon has been a better counterpoint for Damian, and someone who won't take his @#$%, then the Titans have been, and in a way that's different from the more experienced types who Damian has interacted by that point.

I think that's why his dynamic with Damian works, at least to me. Damian being more experienced or efficient then Jon doesn't demean or overpower Jon, compared to how Percy or any writers wrote Damian in _Lazarus Contrac_t or in general, because his own character traits balance out Damian's own. 

And Damian in _Super Sons_ feels more like the Damian who's grown then the one in _Lazarus Contract_ did. 

But that's just me  :Smile: .

----------


## TheCape

We have so little to talk aboit that we just ended talking about Damian  :Stick Out Tongue: .
Tim Drake List 11.jpg
A personal favorite moment, althougth i can't remenber who was the one that eventually formed the strategy.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's down to personal taste I think you give Steph and Maya too much credit they might comment on Damian's attitude but they have zero influence over how he acts. It's just that the banter is fun same as Jon except that Jon is younger and more prensoable so their dynamic works even more.
> 
> Gleason's Damian is great but Seeley's and Tomasi are my favourite.


They gain influence as he gains respect for them. For example - Steph getting Damian to jump in the bouncy castle is an important step forward - before their adventure in Batgirl #17, he would have scoffed. As for Maya - I think it's clear over the course of Robin, Son of Batman, that Damian starts to care what Maya thinks of him, and care that he murdered her father, and that influences his attitude and actions towards her. I strongly disagree that Jon is more personable than Steph - but I have yet to see Damian change his attitude or actions based on Jon's approval or disapproval, or even do stuff that Jon suggests.

I do like Seeley's Damian, because he probably does my favorite Dick and Damian (either Seeley or King). Tomasi...well, I've already said why I dislike his stuff.




> Frankly I feel like Jon has been a better counterpoint for Damian, and someone who won't take his @#$%, then the Titans have been, and in a way that's different from the more experienced types who Damian has interacted by that point.
> 
> I think that's why his dynamic with Damian works, at least to me. Damian being more experienced or efficient then Jon doesn't demean or overpower Jon, compared to how Percy or any writers wrote Damian in _Lazarus Contrac_t or in general, because his own character traits balance out Damian's own. 
> 
> And Damian in _Super Sons_ feels more like the Damian who's grown then the one in _Lazarus Contract_ did. 
> 
> But that's just me .


Jon doesn't really take Damian's meanness - but he doesn't really get him to stop it either, and he's been really passive (with the small exception of one of the recent issues where he sets an example of heroism during patrol). I'm biased, of course, because Steph's Batgirl series is the first place I came to love Damian, but I really think that someone who can't balance Damian out on a level other than superpowers is really going to suffer.

People say Damian in Super Sons feels like he's grown, but I honestly don't see it. I'm not a huge fan of Tomasi's Batman and Robin Run, but I did feel that there was more growth there, and that Super Sons, partly because of the "kid team" dynamic, partly because of the more lighthearted approach, doesn't seem to have progressed at all, and instead his jerk qualities are played for laughs.

I didn't like Lazarus Contract for a lot of reasons, but Damian's behavior was absolutely not one of them. But again, Damian isn't my primary concern - he's just a character I like sometimes and dislike other times.

----------


## TheCape

> I strongly disagree that Jon is more personable than Steph - but I have yet to see Damian change his attitude or actions based on Jon's approval or disapproval, or even do stuff that Jo


Last issue we saw Damian playing outisde of a truck with Jon and Bruce comments that he has become more chatty recently, of course, i agreed that Jon is not even close to my girl (damm you miller, your love for her is contagious), but he is getting there  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Last issue we saw Damian playing outisde of a truck with Jon and Bruce comments that he has become more chatty recently, of course, i agreed that Jon is not even close to my girl (damm you miller, your love for her is contagious), but he is getting there .


I'll give you the moment on the truck, where Damian thanks Jon for helping him to remember flying. That was a good moment.

I will never apologize for loving Steph, though!  :Smile:  Nor do I think anyone should - she's made every character better she hangs out with! Damian, Babs, Cass, Bruce (sometimes)!

----------


## TheCape

> I will never apologize for loving Steph, though!**Nor do I think anyone should - she's made every character better she hangs out with! Damian, Babs, Cass, Bruce (sometimes)!


The only reason of why Bruce adopted Tim was because he wanted Steph as part of his family  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> The only reason of why Bruce adopted Tim was because he wanted Steph as part of his family


So true! (I mean, it can't be, because Steph died before Bruce adopted Tim, but since Steph's death is almost certainly not canon anymore, I'm going to go with that!)

----------


## TheCape

> So true! (I mean, it can't be, because Steph died before Bruce adopted Tim, but since Steph's death is almost certainly not canon anymore, I'm going to go with that!)


Bruce totally knew that Steph was alive after War Games  :Wink: .

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_oy5aptU3u91wxnx8eo1_1280.jpg
How the batfamily use guns  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

First apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
graysons.jpg

Last apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
b49348afaf8a3b4334431f1bcff89437.jpg

Man, time really changed Tim.

----------


## CPSparkles

On that Alien planet the fact that Damian was willing to listen to Jon and take his ideas. The fact that they are working as a team the fact that we and others have now in panel consistent change Damian being more chatty and more open are all down to Jon outside of Grayson and Bruce no one else had changed him more.

Jumping on a bouncy castle one issue and then reverting back to himself really is nothing but I will give you Maya.

----------


## CPSparkles

doubt post

----------


## CPSparkles

> First apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58370
> 
> Last apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58371


he looks very handsome here in that last appaerance

----------


## TheCape

> he looks very handsome here


I wasn't talking about apperances, althougth is not untrue, he was a bishonen under Marcus To  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Bruce totally knew that Steph was alive after War Games .


True. It's even canon!

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 58369
> How the batfamily use guns .


That's the best way to use em

----------


## oasis1313

I would say it's time for Tim to get his own city and get out of the Bat-Nest.  Gotham City is bound to have more suburbs besides Bludhaven.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I wasn't talking about apperances, althougth is not untrue, he was a bishonen under Marcus To


I know you weren't but what happened to the character depresses me so I decided to focus on the shallow and light

----------


## CPSparkles

> I would say it's time for Tim to get his own city and get out of the Bat-Nest.  Gotham City is bound to have more suburbs besides Bludhaven.


Someone once suggested he travel Europe

----------


## sakuyamons

> First apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58370
> 
> Last apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58371
> 
> Man, time really changed Tim.


That puberty really did him some good.

----------


## TheCape

I'm not sure, it make sense for Dick to do that because he is a a man of adventure at heart and staying on Gotham was never appealing. But Gotham is Tim home, he loves the damm place, ugly as it is, althougth the idea of going to europe and starting a net with the superheroes of that continent, like Nightrunner and Squire, is pretty appealing.

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 58369
> How the batfamily use guns .


Dick had to learn it from somebody...



> First apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58370
> 
> Last apperance of Tim Drake pre-flashpoint
> Attachment 58371
> 
> Man, time really changed Tim.


It's a shame he and Bruce left off on sour terms beforehand (although in Inc. you had Tim migrating back to being his partner). 



> I'm not sure, it make sense for Dick to do that because he is a a man of adventure at heart and staying on Gotham was never appealing. But Gotham is Tim home, he loves the damm place, ugly as it is, althougth the idea of going to europe and starting a net with the superheroes of that continent, like Nightrunner and Squire, is pretty appealing.


I would've been down for more of Tim with Beryl. I though they were pretty cute together in that Batman of All Nations arc in Morrison's run.

----------


## TheCape

U1nPYE2blyml8feyCUS7lSuiPKvRetfI7RXBQopREkkl2qFePf0Qa_gSIlj1nlpbjDfbMe7YOyEB=s1600.jpg
Brotherly bonding in TT, i hope that the next croosover gave us something like this.

----------


## Assam

> Nightrunner and Squire


The best members of Batman Inc., bar none. (Although Beryl did become Knight) I don't really care if we ever see any of the others (except for David since he got done DIRTY and I can sympathize with his fans) but I would absolutely love to see these two again.

----------


## TheCape

> It's a shame he and Bruce left off on sour terms beforehand (although in Inc. you had Tim migrating back to being his partner)


He also was going to lead The Outsiders if i remenber correctly, but yeah, i always wondered how thisnconflict was going to pay out.



> I would've been down for more of Tim with Beryl. I though they were pretty cute together in that Batman of All Nations arc in Morrison's run.


I agreed.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 58373
> Brotherly bonding in TT, i hope that the next croosover gave us something like this.


I hope so too. I know ghoulish types might enjoy their squabbles but I've had enough of it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'm not sure, it make sense for Dick to do that because he is a a man of adventure at heart and staying on Gotham was never appealing. But Gotham is Tim home, he loves the damm place, ugly as it is, althougth the idea of going to europe and starting a net with the superheroes of that continent, like Nightrunner and Squire, is pretty appealing.


I always enjoy a nice globetrotting arc. He doesn't have to leave forever but I wouldn't mind Tim having more than one base or dealing with international threats that take him to the continent

----------


## TheCape

> I hope so too. I know ghoulish types might enjoy their squabbles but I've had enough of it.


As goodisawesome said, the best way to writte then is as 2 people that anoy the hell out of the other pretty often, but when the real danger appears, they would save eacht other without thinking it twice.

----------


## CPSparkles

> As goodisawesome said, the best way to writte then is as 2 people that anoy the hell out of the other pretty often, but when the real danger appears, they would save eacht other without thinking it twice.


I still don't want that I'd rather they just don't interact at all than flame existing fan wars.

----------


## TheCape

> I still don't want that I'd rather they just don't interact at all than flame existing fan wars.


I still waiting for the rap battle personally  :Smile: 
tumblr_inline_n74dzriEyz1rzhlpe.jpg

----------


## TheCape

But speaking seriously, i don't think that there is any venom or hate beetween Tim and Damian anymore, they are allies and at the very least respecr eacth other.

----------


## sakuyamons

> But speaking seriously, i don't think that there is any venom or hate beetween Tim and Damian anymore, they are allies and at the very least respecr eacth other.


I mean, they shouldn’t, they don’t have that much beef like they did pre-FP.

----------


## CPSparkles

> But speaking seriously, i don't think that there is any venom or hate beetween Tim and Damian anymore, they are allies and at the very least respecr eacth other.


There isn't what we have now is writers trying to force hate between them that has no reason behind it

----------


## millernumber1

> But speaking seriously, i don't think that there is any venom or hate beetween Tim and Damian anymore, they are allies and at the very least respecr eacth other.


It's really hard to tell, since Tim was "dead" before Damian did much in Rebirth. Damian did say that Tim Drake was a "great man", but I will be very interested to see if Tomasi goes back to the dynamic he used (and I hated) in Batman and Robin where Damian taunted Tim with his failures as Teen Titans leader.

----------


## TheCape

> It's really hard to tell, since Tim was "dead" before Damian did much in Rebirth. Damian did say that Tim Drake was a "great man", but I will be very interested to see if Tomasi goes back to the dynamic he used (and I hated) in Batman and Robin where Damian taunted Tim with his failures as Teen Titans leader.


Well Percy is involved too and he was the one that had Damian saying the "great man" line, at the very least Raven or Beast Boy would inform him. Most of their interactions after Tomasi's arc, is Damian being his typical snarky self.and Tim just let him be.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I still waiting for the rap battle personally 
> tumblr_inline_n74dzriEyz1rzhlpe.jpg


I don't even need a rap battle just them in blinged out hats would do. Se who can rock it best  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Percy is involved too and he was the one that had Damian saying the "great man" line, at the very least Raven or Beast Boy would inform him.


So much has changed, since then. I'm really not sure what the status quo will be.

----------


## Frontier

I mean, Damian _really_ didn't like Tim (and vice-versa pre-Flashpoint) when he was alive, but I could see him begrudgingly admitting that Tim was better then Damian ever gave him credit for after his death. 

With Tim alive though...

----------


## CPSparkles

> Well Percy is involved too and he was the one that had Damian saying the "great man" line, at the very least Raven or Beast Boy would inform him.


But that Tim wasn't a great man that's why that felt off. I don't think Damian thinks Tim is a great man but I don't see why they would still have issues. I had no problem with Damian taunting Tim with his failures because they happened and he was trying to get a rise out of him

----------


## TheCape

I don't think that Damian would ever said anything nice to Tim when he is concious or listening, but he probably would tone down his insults a bit ir at least not saying the more nasty ones.

----------


## CPSparkles

Also pretty sure Tomasi is writing the TT crossover issue too not Percy which is a good thing.

----------


## TheCape

I checked, yeah you are rigth. I guest that we are going back to where they left after B&R  :Confused:

----------


## CPSparkles

> I checked, yeah you are rigth. I guest that we are going back to where they left after B&R


I'm sure Tomasi's caught up. Percy might not have them hating each other but he struggles to spotlight anyone other than Damian so I'm glad we've got a more balanced writer.

----------


## TheCape

Speaking of old friends.
tumblr_inline_n31evupGUH1ro5ykn.jpg
tumblr_inline_n31ew4ceXz1ro5ykn.jpg
Even in their darkest days the had eacth other backs.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Speaking of old friends.
> tumblr_inline_n31evupGUH1ro5ykn.jpg
> tumblr_inline_n31ew4ceXz1ro5ykn.jpg
> Even in their darkest days the had eacth other backs.


Before the whole TimCassie mess while Kon was dead.

I complain a lot about TT V3, but I think I'll always love it (at least pre-IC and Krul's run, though I have my complains about it as well  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## godisawesome

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the biggest issue with Geoff Johns's run on Teen Totans was that while _he_ could, by and large, write his changes in the characters, once they took two of his toys away, he slipped, and then nobody ever really made his changes work again.

His first few arcs in the comic _mostly_ feel contiguous with their portrayals in Young Justice and their solos, using Graduation Day as an excuse for their more melancholy moods (even if that book _sucked._) He used Tim as a hard-to-ruffle straight man just like PAD did... Until he made him a mad scientist.

----------


## CPSparkles

Hugs for Tim

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## TheCape

96761b988702cfcbfff42b0d68973d5c.jpg
Family picture with hugs.

----------


## TheCape

> Until he made him a mad scientist


That was such a weird development.

----------


## TheCape

So partially because of curiosity and partially because i think that we need some possitivity, i wanted to ask, what was your first Tim Drake story and why do you like him?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Batman #457.   I always just found Tim easy to relate too.   Plus he was somewhat of a geek too.

----------


## Assam

Just mentioned this on the Steph thread, but my first Tim story was Young Justice #1. 

As for why I like him, its the same reason as Steph: His relationships, primarily those with the YJ gang and Cass. Not that I find him boring like his haters do, but I also don't find much to latch onto personally. When he's with his sister, the YJ gang or a variety of other characters though? Tons of interesting and fun dynamics. And hey, he does still have plenty of solo moments, both of the nerdy and badass variety, that I really like. Tim's my favorite of the male Robins and I really want a new YJ book or a Cass and Tim book (Can't say I want a solo at all though)

----------


## godisawesome

It was either a Young Justice TPB from the library (which makes sense as I was initially a much bigger Superboy fan) or my buddy's copy of the last issue of his first miniseries, which was right next to a copy of The Mud Pack. PAD has such a great handle on writing the characters as an ensemble, and Dixon tackled internal conflict and plotting like a pro.

----------


## Assam

> and Dixon tackled internal conflict and plotting like a pro.


And now he's writing Alt-Hero...

----------


## godisawesome

*sigh* yeah...

"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

----------


## sakuyamons

> And now he's writing Alt-Hero...


Oh, how the mighty fall  :Frown:  




> So partially because of curiosity and partially because i think that we need some possitivity, i wanted to ask, what was your first Tim Drake story and why do you like him?


I actually got to know him thanks to Teen Titans v3, since it was the first comic I bought, but I was reading everything without order. So I was reading also Damian's tenure as Robin and I preferred Damian for a long shot, but I thought Tim was okay, I checked Young Justice and I realized I actually liked Tim a lot because he was the straight man with tendencies to do weird things (Mr. Sarcastic) and I thought his team-up with Cass was very sweet. I still haven't read his solo, but then again...I'm reading many things  :Stick Out Tongue: .

btw TheCape, which part of Venezuela are you from?

----------


## TheCape

> btw TheCape, which part of Venezuela are you from?


I'm from Caracas.

----------


## TheCape

> And now he's writing Alt-Hero...


What is that?.

----------


## millernumber1

> What is that?.


An alt-right comic book.

----------


## Assam

> I'm from Caracas.


Oh neat.  That's where some of my grandma's cousins fled to during the Holocaust. 




> What is that?.


https://********tr.com/project/althero/

A comic made by nazis FOR nazis, about nazi and confederate supporting "superheroes"

----------


## millernumber1

> So partially because of curiosity and partially because i think that we need some possitivity, i wanted to ask, what was your first Tim Drake story and why do you like him?


I have no real idea. For me, Tim was always Robin - the first comic I remember picking up is from No Man's Land (the one where Superman visits), and the second is from Bruce Wayne, Murderer? - both smack in the middle of Tim's run. So he was just always there. And I know it's kinda controversial, but to me, Tynion is bringing that back - with the costume, but also with the importance Tim has to Bruce and the Batfamily.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Oh neat.  That's where some of my grandma's cousins fled to during the Holocaust. 
> 
> 
> 
> https://********tr.com/project/althero/
> 
> A comic made by nazis FOR nazis, about nazi and confederate supporting "superheroes"


How these weirdos managed a pro to write for them is beyond me...




> I'm from Caracas.


Awesome, I'm from there as well. I lived my whole life there before I moved...two years ago.

Anyways, I think I know now where Tim's look on Arkham Knight comes from

fbvDH.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Anyways, I think I know now where Tim's look on Arkham Knight comes from
> 
> fbvDH.jpg


Oh no! That's hilarious.

----------


## TheCape

> Oh neat. That's where some of my grandma's cousins fled to during the Holocaust.*


Cool, i remenber hearing something about many refugees coming to our country in war times during story class. I hope that they aren't here anymore, rigth now is kind of well...... you probably know already



> A comic made by nazis FOR nazis, about nazi and confederate supporting "superheroes"


Oh... well, is a good thing that i can separate the product from thebwritter.

----------


## TheCape

> Awesome, I'm from there as well. I lived my whole life there before I moved...two years ago.


Kuudos i'm thinking about soing the same next year.




> Anyways, I think I know now where Tim's look on Arkham Knight comes from


Well Rocsteady at least did their homewlrk  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Oh no! That's hilarious.


Had you guys not seen the MAGIC that is Mister Sarcastic before? It's perfect in every way. 




> Cool, i remenber hearing something about many refugees coming to our country in war times during story class. I hope that they aren't here anymore, rigth now is kind of well...... you probably know already


I mean...they're dead now so, yeah, not exactly still there. 

But yeah, I've heard.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Had you guys not seen the MAGIC that is Mister Sarcastic before? It's perfect in every way.


It looks familiar, somehow. But I can't really place it. I'm guessing it's something to do with YJ or TT, though.

----------


## TheCape

I think that is just appropiate that i give my own view. I started reading comics 5/6 years ago, Blackest Knigth was my first comic and the incredible size of the DC universe make mw curious to look for more, i'm not sure when i saw Tim for the first time in comic book format (previous to thst, i was aware of Tim Drake Robin thanks to the "Return of the Joker movie, poor TDOIN), it probably was his origin thougth (i was more into NTT than Batman for a while) neither let me much of an impression frankly, i found about Bruce's death and decided to give it a try to the post-Rip Batman universe, wich of course led me to Red Robin, Yost run win me over and make me a fan of the characther, Tim's journey from his biggest low until his recovery was pretty compelling, Nicieza's run was a weird but interesting change of pace but it was kind of weird too, althougth most of his elements were set up by Yost when you look back. After that i start to dig in his story and i found his "Spider-Man meets Batman" elements that draw me to the characther more, the fact that Spider-Man is my favorite certanly helped to make a bigger fan too.

----------


## TheCape

> t looks familiar, somehow. But I can't really place it. I'm guessing it's something to do with YJ or TT, though.


YJ, is pure PAD magic  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> It looks familiar, somehow. But I can't really place it. I'm guessing it's something to do with YJ or TT, though.


It's from the final few issues of Young Justice. 

Ace Atchinson, the reporter who named the team (Accidentally) got the team to agree to let cameras be put around their base to turn their lives into a reality show. Tim, knowing Batman would freak if he participated in this as Robin, put together the Mister Sarcastic persona, new personality included, so he wouldn't have to leave the team again (He'd only recently come back to it). 

If you ever need a lesson in tonal whiplash (and what happens when a book with long term plans is cancelled unexpectedly) the issue after Mister Sarcastic debuts? Darkseid shows up.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It looks familiar, somehow. But I can't really place it. I'm guessing it's something to do with YJ or TT, though.


Young Justice #52 and #53

----------


## TheCape

If i remenber correctly, it was created to get around the whole "Batman isn't known by the public eye" thing that DC pushed for a while.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you ever need a lesson in tonal whiplash (and what happens when a book with long term plans is cancelled unexpectedly) the issue after Mister Sarcastic debuts? Darkseid shows up.


Wait, wut.

----------


## Assam

> Wait, wut.


Oh yeah, while all this stuff with the reality show was going on, David also had to start wrapping up the book's ongoing arcs. Among these was the main plot for the final issues, Darkseid (Who'd previously met team member Secret during the genuinely horrifying (In the best way possible) tie-ins to Our Worlds at War, befriending her by giving her ice cream and by her thinking his name was Mr. Doug Side) successfully turning her against the team and the Earth.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah, while all this stuff with the reality show was going on, David also had to start wrapping up the book's ongoing arcs. Among these was the main plot for the final issues, Darkseid (Who'd previously met team member Secret during the genuinely horrifying (In the best way possible) tie-ins to Our Worlds at War, befriending her by giving her ice cream and by her thinking his name was Mr. Doug Side) successfully turning her against the team and the Earth.


...yeah, this is why I'm glad I never really got into those team books. That sounds like an interesting plot, but not something I'd enjoy at all.

----------


## Assam

> ...yeah, this is why I'm glad I never really got into those team books. That sounds like an interesting plot, but not something I'd enjoy at all.


What about it sounds unappealing to you? 

I know your big problem with team books is the lack of meaningful characterization, but this is a case where that problem is averted completely, mostly due to the fact that the book is almost always character driven. _Every_ main character is written with depth (save The Ray, but he was only around for about five minutes) and  it's some of the best character work I've ever seen in comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> What about it sounds unappealing to you? 
> 
> I know your big problem with team books is the lack of meaningful characterization, but this is a case where that problem is averted completely, mostly due to the fact that the book is almost always character driven. _Every_ main character is written with depth (save The Ray, but he was only around for about five minutes) and  it's some of the best character work I've ever seen in comics.


Darkseid, a lot of characters I'm not invested in at all (I know, I'm supposed to read from the beginning so I get invested), team betrayal, world-in-danger plots.

I'm sure it was really well done. Just not for me - and I know that's really frustrating for someone like you who has intelligent and passionate investment in it. It just doesn't work for me as a concept at all.

----------


## CPSparkles

New Talent Showcase

----------


## Assam

Oh hey, the fakeFamily. 

Wait, this is from yesterday? f**k's sake. And what the Hell is Tim wearing?

----------


## TheCape

Also, King Snake appeared as an antagonist for Katana's story.

----------


## TheCape

> Oh hey, the fakeFamily.*


Eh, i think this are supposed to be the most closer to Dick, althougth it was weird that Kate has thougths balloons and not Tim.

----------


## Assam

> Eh, i think this are supposed to be the most closer to Dick


Far as I'm aware, Dick has never been close with Kate and in the current continuity Dick isn't close with Tim at all.

----------


## Caivu

> Far as I'm aware, Dick has never been close with Kate and in the current continuity Dick isn't close with Tim at all.


Dick was the very first superhero to welcome Kate into the vigilante community, and personally vouched for her skills to the Justice League. While Batman, he also helped her to commit suicide so she could be Lazarus-pitted and healed of severe injuries.

That's all pre-Flashpoint, I know, but they did have an established working relationship.

----------


## Frontier

> New Talent Showcase


I missed Barbara's old costume  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> Far as I'm aware, Dick has never been close with Kate and in the current continuity Dick isn't close with Tim at all.


If Tim's origin is back then I'd like to think his history with Dick is too, up to a point.

----------


## Assam

> If Tim's origin is back then I'd like to think his history with Dick is too, up to a point.


You're of course free to think that, but considering the obvious holes in Tim's history currently that keep it from resembling what we know in any way, and the fact  that in this case the idea that they're close is just being used as a bad justification for why only these characters are here? Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.

----------


## CPSparkles

I like to think that slowly things are being restored. Give it time everything can't be fixed in one story. The process is gradual.

----------


## Assam

> I like to think that slowly things are being restored. Give it time everything can't be fixed in one story. The process is gradual.


Cass and Steph (and Helena and JPV) aren't going to get their histories back, the first two because of editorial and the latter two because not enough people care. Even if Kon, Cassie, Bart and Tim all end up remembering each other, the actual books they were in together sure as Hell can't be canon because of all the other characters and events involved. 

There are more examples, but unless Doomsday Clock does what you say can't be done, fix everything in one story, which it won't, we are never going to have any idea about the history of this world.

----------


## CPSparkles

> So partially because of curiosity and partially because i think that we need some possitivity, i wanted to ask, what was your first Tim Drake story and why do you like him?


my 1st Tim drake story was in Nightwing The boys. Tim was Robin when I was growing up so I've kind of grown up with him. I liked that he was just regular in a world everyone seems extraordinary. I loved watching him grow from an awkward kid to a more confident hero.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Cass and Steph (and Helena and JPV) aren't going to get their histories back, the first two because of editorial and the latter two because not enough people care. Even if Kon, Cassie, Bart and Tim all end up remembering each other, the actual books they were in together sure as Hell can't be canon because of all the other characters and events involved. 
> 
> There are more examples, but unless Doomsday Clock does what you say can't be done, fix everything in one story, which it won't, we are never going to have any idea about the history of this world.


I'm talking about Tim and while i am aware that we will never get everything back exactly as it once was I am confident that we will get as close as possible to what once was.

----------


## Assam

> I'm talking about Tim and while i am aware that we will never get everything back exactly as it once was I am confident that we will get as close as possible to what once was.


Yes, I know we're talking about Tim, and that's why I brought up characters who played major/significant roles in his history. Without Tim's history with those characters, among others, it's basically unrecognizable, some obviously impacting it more than others.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yes, I know we're talking about Tim, and that's why I brought up characters who played major/significant roles in his history. Without Tim's history with those characters, among others, it's basically unrecognizable, some obviously impacting it more than others.


Crap I didn't think about it from that angle. Still with the character he became in 52 it's still a win and I'm more than prepared to suspend my belief.

----------


## TheCape

Frankly, i think that Steph and the YJ crew are the indispensable ones, without those Tim is not him. Helena?, well we lost Cry of the Huntres, but the biggest contribution of that mini was meeting Ariana and Jack Drake awakening from his coma, JPV contribution was kicking him out of the batcave wich force him to go solo, i think that you can find easy explanations for that one. Steph was a constant supporting characther so she is the most problematic, specially for coming oit of Batman Eternal, YJ could still work thougth. The other one is Cass, but she wasn't mucy of constant presence in his life in spite of their friendship, so if Tynion get over his ass and actually show us both interacting, if not difficult to bring then back as they were in the preflashpoint canon.

----------


## Frontier

> You're of course free to think that, but considering the obvious holes in Tim's history currently that keep it from resembling what we know in any way, and the fact  that in this case the idea that they're close is just being used as a bad justification for why only these characters are here? Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.


What makes it a "bad justification" rather then just a justification, since we've at least had tangential hints in Rebirth that Dick cared about Tim? 



> Cass and Steph (and Helena and JPV) aren't going to get their histories back, the first two because of editorial and the latter two because not enough people care. Even if Kon, Cassie, Bart and Tim all end up remembering each other, the actual books they were in together sure as Hell can't be canon because of all the other characters and events involved. 
> 
> There are more examples, but unless Doomsday Clock does what you say can't be done, fix everything in one story, which it won't, we are never going to have any idea about the history of this world.


I wouldn't say nobody cares about Helena' history, otherwise it wouldn't have been reflected as much as it has been in Rebirth.

----------


## Assam

> YJ could still work thougth.


It really can't though, sadly. There are just far too many characters, events and relationships which are no longer in continuity. 




> The other one is Cass, but she wasn't mucy of constant presence in his life in spite of their friendship, so if Tynion get over his ass and actually show us both interacting, if not difficult to bring then back as they were in the preflashpoint canon.


On paper, this would be a reason I'd like to think my theory that Kate, Steph, Luke and JPV will all be departing from the team temporarily is true...but then I remember what I think of Tynion's Tim.  :Frown: 




> What makes it a "bad justification" rather then just a justification, since we've at least had tangential hints in Rebirth that Dick cared about Tim?


Because it's being used to try and justify the presence of what was essentially the Nu52 "Fake" BatFamily. (No Jason admittedly, but he got his own story in this thing)

----------


## TheCape

> It really can't though, sadly. There are just far too many characters, events and relationships which are no longer in continuity.*


I mean, not exaclty like before, that's impossible, but a sort of vague "we were in a team together" kind of think, they made some sligth references but nothing too specific, of course in order for thid to happen they need to exist again first (forgetting Bar-Tor should be the first step).

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Cass and Steph (and Helena and JPV) aren't going to get their histories back, the first two because of editorial and the latter two because not enough people care. Even if Kon, Cassie, Bart and Tim all end up remembering each other, the actual books they were in together sure as Hell can't be canon because of all the other characters and events involved. 
> 
> There are more examples, but unless Doomsday Clock does what you say can't be done, fix everything in one story, which it won't, we are never going to have any idea about the history of this world.


I kind of hope there is some kind of event that while not snapping back continuity, at least gives these characters the memories and experiences of their pre52 selves. 

Tim just remembering another life where he lost all of his friends and parents would do wonders for his direction going forward.

----------


## godisawesome

DC leadership would be against it, since it would hit their traumatic spot of "confuses new readers."

Not that I'd agree; good stories will attract readers regardless of whatever their background is.

----------


## TheCape

Good news, Tim is appearing in Batman ninja, i'm glad that is using his RR symbol.
12-1-.jpg
Añthougth the line beetween ninja and samurai is thin in this movie.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Good news, Tim is appearing in Batman ninja, i'm glad that is using his RR symbol.
> 12-1-.jpg
> Añthougth the line beetween ninja and samurai is thin in this movie.


Lol, Damian and Tim's hair though. And the Red 'Hood', LMAO!

----------


## sakuyamons

> Good news, Tim is appearing in Batman ninja, i'm glad that is using his RR symbol.
> Attachment 58583
> Añthougth the line beetween ninja and samurai is thin in this movie.


...this actually looks awesome. That hood though.

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, it looks awesome, i know that some people aren't thrilled about Tim's desing, but i like the samurai vibe that i got from his costume. Also apparently he is fighting Two Face and Dick is fighting The Penguin, i think that it should be backwards personally.

----------


## Assam

Instead of ranting about how much I hate Batman Ninja...

plan.jpg

I'm gonna say how much I love the idea that "Pretending to kill each other" ended up becoming a go-to plan for these two.

----------


## TheCape

Hey, nice cacht Assam, i laughted when Tim and Cassandra pull that off in RR. Also i agrees with you about the lack of Cass in Batman Ninja.

----------


## Frontier

> Good news, Tim is appearing in Batman ninja, i'm glad that is using his RR symbol.
> Attachment 58583
> Añthougth the line beetween ninja and samurai is thin in this movie.


His design just screams "voiced by Yuuki Kaji"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## godisawesome

> Instead of ranting about how much I hate Batman Ninja...
> 
> plan.jpg
> 
> I'm gonna say how much I love the idea that "Pretending to kill each other" ended up becoming a go-to plan for these two.


Ha! 

That should be their version of Thor Ragnarok's "Get Help!"

----------


## RedBird

0yongyong0
Its understandable Alfred.

----------


## KrustyKid

> 0yongyong0
> Its understandable Alfred.


I like that one

----------


## TheCape

Tim needs to be more carefull in cleaning time  :Stick Out Tongue: .

latest-3.jpg
Somdebody knows from what comic is this scene.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

And then, she dropped the bomb  :Stick Out Tongue: 
IMG_5710.jpg
I bet that Tim thougth that it was his fault for a moment  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> And then, she dropped the bomb 
> IMG_5710.jpg
> I bet that Tim thougth that it was his fault for a moment


Yeah, he lost his logical thinking for a moment there.

----------


## KrustyKid

Bat Family time

tumblr_om3xa9Ogfi1vzfdyzo1_1280.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

Is that Marcus To?

----------


## millernumber1

> Is that Marcus To?


Must be - has his signature.

Yup, found it here: http://marcusto.tumblr.com/post/5951...po-here-is-the

----------


## godisawesome

Man, they need to put that guy back on a Batbook. 

Preferably with Fabian Nicieza.

On a Red Robin solo.



(Shut up, I can dream!)

----------


## millernumber1

> Man, they need to put that guy back on a Batbook. 
> 
> Preferably with Fabian Nicieza.
> 
> On a Red Robin solo.
> 
> 
> 
> (Shut up, I can dream!)


Well, if I had to dream, I'd put him on a Tim Drake solo with Christ Yost, not FabNic.  :Smile: 

And yes, they need to put him on a Batbook. I bought the first Bludhaven arc just for To's art, and I'm still crushed he didn't come back.

----------


## KrustyKid

tumblr_os07p0cZzj1tyyf1so2_1280.jpg

Team Robin assembled

----------


## TheCape

latest-4.jpg
Tim's fastball special  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Frontier

> Bat Family time
> 
> tumblr_om3xa9Ogfi1vzfdyzo1_1280.jpg


Kind of makes me wish this was what the Batfamily looked like now...

(I mean, it kind of does, but not like this).

----------


## TheCape

Specially with Yellow Oval Batman, that's my favorite costume from the big guy.

----------


## Frontier

> Specially with Yellow Oval Batman, that's my favorite costume from the big guy.


I miss the yellow oval too  :Frown: .

----------


## TheCape

bruce-wayne-is-batman-but-he-hasn-t-always-been-7-times-batman-wasn-t-bruce-wayne-tim-d-493369.jpg
Althougth, i'm against the idea of Tim being Batman and Battle for the Cowl is mediocre at best, this is nice. Bonus points for the yellow oval, Drake's knows what fans want  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The Whovian

> Bat Family time
> 
> tumblr_om3xa9Ogfi1vzfdyzo1_1280.jpg


Yep. Love the costumes

----------


## CPSparkles

Batman Ninja

----------


## CPSparkles

The boys

----------


## josai21

> Batman Ninja


Batman and the Robins using swords is interesting considering their stance on guns. Maybe its because they don't have the tech necessary to and have to use stronger weapons? Still...would expect them to use staves or something...

----------


## TheCape

> The boys


My favorite look, for every one of then.

----------


## TheCape

> Batman and the Robins using swords is interesting considering their stance on guns. Maybe its because they don't have the tech necessary to and have to use stronger weapons? Still...would expect them to use staves or something...


Well, Tim is also keeping his bo staff, so i assume that Dick has some escrima sticks there, Damian and Jason aren't shy about using this kind of stuff. Besides i don't think that Katanas enter in the same category for then.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_nxm5mwRY9j1qhb02oo4_540.jpg
I don't know why, but i always had a big love for this drawing of Red Robin, is the first thing that comes to mind when i think on the series and identity.

----------


## TheCape

Also, Marcus To drawing NuTim

tumblr_lwwo6h1jCJ1qhb02oo1_540.jpg
tumblr_lwwo6h1jCJ1qhb02oo2_400.jpg
tumblr_lwwo6h1jCJ1qhb02oo3_400.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

> tumblr_nxm5mwRY9j1qhb02oo4_540.jpg
> I don't know why, but i always had a big love for this drawing of Red Robin, is the first thing that comes to mind when i think on the series and identity.


At the risk of badly imitating my friend, the actual art teacher...

What you've got here is a beautiful composition of Gotham and Red Robin in a warm style that calls to mind Batman:The Animated Series in aesthetic; Marcus To is a master of the simplified but not totally cartoonish art style. You've also got the original Alex Ross costume, which does have a nice, old school swashbuckling thing going on. The persepctive of Gotham also invites the reader to imagine how cool some parts of Tim's life must be, even with all the really bad stuff he has to put up with.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o88a4wNTRw1ul1v0to1_500.jpg
Tim vs Mr Freeze.

----------


## TheCape

With the return of his best male friends near, i want to ask, what are your favorite Tim and Kon-El stories?

----------


## Assam

> With the return of his best male friends near, i want to ask, what are your favorite Tim and Kon-El stories?


Maybe Young Justice #36?  One of the best ways to see how much people care about each other is to see how passionate they get when angry at one another. 

Red Robin#9 is also up there (along with plenty more bits of YJ)

----------


## shadowsgirl

Adventure Comics 03

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Adventure Comics 06. I miss these guys.

----------


## KrustyKid

tumblr_ozosxo7vsf1ttdi20o1_1280.jpg

Choose your flavor

----------


## sakuyamons

Manapul's art is lovely, and actually the issue was pretty sweet as well.

----------


## RedBird

Here we go Cape, an artist, a popular one too, picking up on the cool look  :Cool: 

Lightning Strikes Art - _Red Robin in Batman Ninja is a look I dig._

----------


## KrustyKid

> Here we go Cape, an artist, a popular one too, picking up on the cool look 
> 
> Lightning Strikes Art - _Red Robin in Batman Ninja is a look I dig._


Awesome stuff

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

> Here we go Cape, an artist, a popular one too, picking up on the cool look 
> 
> Lightning Strikes Art - _Red Robin in Batman Ninja is a look I dig._


That's a pretty good drawing, man i think that people really like Tim's hair  :Smile: .

----------


## Frontier

> 


I would have totally picked this up  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(Actually kind of looks like a cover for a double-date...)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I would have totally picked this up.
> 
> (Actually kind of looks like a cover for a double-date...)


Yeah, me too.  :Big Grin:  Tim and Kara friendship was sweet, and Steph and Kara were really good together in Steph's Batgirl series. Although I'm not sure how Cass and Kara would react to each other  :Big Grin:  

Double-date? But.... who is with who? Tim with Steph and Kara with Cass? Or Steph with Cass and Kara with Tim?  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_p0darfaBIT1wcduqco1_1280.jpg
That time when Bruce and Tim almost choked eacth other to death.
tumblr_p0gbtfH7Wo1wcduqco1_500.jpg
Tim and Bruce being super extra it seems that Jason is the not the only dramatic in the family  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_p0dbziTwJq1wcduqco2_540.jpg
Bird vs Bird.
Also, that smile....

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_oy3fz4OxeM1wxnx8eo1_540.jpg
How a Robin gives the middle finger to his TT mentors  :Smile: .

----------


## Frontier

> tumblr_oy3fz4OxeM1wxnx8eo1_540.jpg
> How a Robin gives the middle finger to his TT mentors .


Looking at Kori's reaction, it's almost like she knows this is what Robins do  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/940683955531145217

"Robin."

This is just sad

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/940683955531145217
> 
> "Robin."
> 
> This is just sad


Well, it is still part of his codename and he does still dress the part  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Oh hey, nice to see someone else remembers _Batman Unlimited_  :Smile: .

----------


## scary harpy

> Well, it is still part of his codename and he does still dress the part .
> 
> Oh hey, nice to see someone else remembers _Batman Unlimited_ .


I remember it. It was the closest thing to a new Batman cartoon that we've gotten in a while.  :Frown: 

I don't mind that it was designed to sell toys to boys. I've see _much_ worse.

----------


## godisawesome

Seems to be tacit confirmation that Tynion is writing Tim as Robin instead of Red Robin; it's strictly a nominal marketing name now. Doesn't mean anything. Unless they start treating it as a graduation.

----------


## Frontier

> *Seems to be tacit confirmation that Tynion is writing Tim as Robin instead of Red Robin*; it's strictly a nominal marketing name now. Doesn't mean anything. Unless they start treating it as a graduation.


That's basically what Morrison did anyways, since Tim was still effectively Bruce's Robin up until Flashpoint happened.

----------


## Caivu

> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/940683955531145217
> 
> "Robin."
> 
> This is just sad


Not as bad as them getting the entire synopsis of an issue wrong.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Seems to be tacit confirmation that Tynion is writing Tim as Robin instead of Red Robin; it's strictly a nominal marketing name now. Doesn't mean anything. Unless they start treating it as a graduation.


But was it really a graduation, though?

----------


## Frontier

> But was it really a graduation, though?


I dunno, it was more like Tim taking a bad situation and making the best out of it.

----------


## Assam

> I dunno, it was more like Tim taking a bad situation and making the best out of it.


Honestly the only one with a well-done graduation still remains Dick. 

Jason: Has a now iconic mantle, but he was dead for over a decade between roles. 
Barbara: Got the biggest upgrade out of anyone, but Oracle wasn't even a thought when Killing Joke was written. 
Cass: Took on a random name as part of Batman Inc because of DC's malice. Then got rebooted to a role lesser than where she started, and is about to get yet another codename. 
Tim: Like you said, making the best out of a bad situation with Damian storming in. 
Steph: Definitely fits the 'graduation' bill, but, along with Damian, she's one of the ones who stole a mantle from someone else and it was done even worse than in Damian and Tim's case.

----------


## Frontier

> Honestly the only one with a well-done graduation still remains Dick. 
> 
> Jason: Has a now iconic mantle, but he was dead for over a decade between roles. 
> Barbara: Got the biggest upgrade out of anyone, but Oracle wasn't even a thought when Killing Joke was written. 
> Cass: Took on a random name as part of Batman Inc because of DC's malice. Then got rebooted to a role lesser than where she started, and is about to get yet another codename. 
> Tim: Like you said, making the best out of a bad situation with Damian storming in. 
> Steph: Definitely fits the 'graduation' bill, but, along with Damian, she's one of the ones who stole a mantle from someone else and it was done even worse than in Damian and Tim's case.


Must be a Batfamily thing  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## josai21

> Must be a Batfamily thing .


I mean Bruces graduation involves his parents dying in front of him so...

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly the only one with a well-done graduation still remains Dick. 
> 
> Jason: Has a now iconic mantle, but he was dead for over a decade between roles. 
> Barbara: Got the biggest upgrade out of anyone, but Oracle wasn't even a thought when Killing Joke was written. 
> Cass: Took on a random name as part of Batman Inc because of DC's malice. Then got rebooted to a role lesser than where she started, and is about to get yet another codename. 
> Tim: Like you said, making the best out of a bad situation with Damian storming in. 
> Steph: Definitely fits the 'graduation' bill, but, along with Damian, she's one of the ones who stole a mantle from someone else and it was done even worse than in Damian and Tim's case.


The way how they passed the Batgirl Mantle from Helena to Cass was imo also not that great.

And Bettes change from Bat-Girl to Flame Bird was also never really shown on panel (and her change to Hawk Fire was kind of point less).

----------


## MajorHoy

> And Bette's change from Bat-Girl to Flame Bird was also never really shown on panel . . .


That seemed to be a revision resulting from *Crisis on Infinite Earths*. (Was she ever really still "Bat-Girl" in the past under the _post-CoIE_ story? Did she now start out as "Flamebird" to go with Dick's "Nightwing" identity?)

----------


## Assam

> The way how they passed the Batgirl Mantle from Helena to Cass was imo also not that great.


I agree that Helena got screwed over in how Bruce treated her, but I never really saw her as 'Batgirl' but as trying to fill-in for Batman.

----------


## TheCape

> But was it really a graduation, though?


It was treated as one, with Tim filling that Nightwing sized hole that Dick left after becoming Batman, but after the reboot it was never treated as such again.

----------


## millernumber1

> The way how they passed the Batgirl Mantle from Helena to Cass was imo also not that great.
> 
> And Bettes change from Bat-Girl to Flame Bird was also never really shown on panel (and her change to Hawk Fire was kind of point less).


Aww. I liked the Hawkfire codename and costume. But it was a Trevor McCarthy design, so I thought it was pretty cool-looking. But then again, the way Williams drew Flamebird was beyond gorgeous as well. Man, whatever happens, I really hope that Bette comes back soon!




> I agree that Helena got screwed over in how Bruce treated her, but I never really saw her as 'Batgirl' but as trying to fill-in for Batman.


I actually completely agree with this statement. Helena never really wanted to be a Bat, she wanted to be part of the family, which she finally found in the Birds. That's why I've never tried counting her as a Batgirl. Honestly, Charlie has a better claim to that title, I think (and I don't really count her either).

----------


## Assam

> It was treated as one, with Tim filling that Nightwing sized hole that Dick left after becoming Batman, but after the reboot it was never treated as such again.


Right there at the end,  and I mean _the end_, we really did have a great foundation and 'hierarchy' for the BatFam. Bruce overseeing Inc, Dick in charge of Gotham, Tim and Cass as his lieutenants in the 'Nightwing' role, Steph and Damian as the ones with further to go, Kate and (Morrison weirdness aside) Jason as the outsiders....I fall into this 'What Could Have Been' mentality so often here just because it'll likely be a long time before we have a set-up as great as that could have been.

----------


## TheCape

> Right there at the end,  and I mean _the end_, we really did have a great foundation and 'hierarchy' for the BatFam. Bruce overseeing Inc, Dick in charge of Gotham, Tim and Cass as his lieutenants in the 'Nightwing' role, Steph and Damian as the ones with further to go, Kate and (Morrison weirdness aside) Jason as the outsiders....I fall into this 'What Could Have Been' mentality so often here just because it'll likely be a long time before we have a set-up as great as that could have been.


More or less agreed, except for Jason, he probably was going to be stuck as a villain for a while, Tim seemed to be the one that was going to lead The Outsiders, althougth considering Inc Vol 2, maybe he was going to be part of then.

----------


## Assam

> More or less agreed, except for Jason, he probably was going to be stuck as a villain for a while, Tim seemed to be the one that was going to lead The Outsiders, althougth considering Inc Vol 2, maybe he was going to be part of then.


I dunno. I kinda think Jason would have gone back sooner rather than later to where he was in Countdown (Which some of his fans seem to really like him in) I think it's more likely that Tim would have gone to the Outsiders while Cass went to Inc considering Morrison specifically wanted to use her, having more plans for her and being the one who blocked Simone from using her in BoP.

----------


## MajorHoy

> More or less agreed, *except for Jason, he probably was going to be stuck as a villain for a while*, Tim seemed to be the one that was going to lead The Outsiders, althougth considering Inc Vol 2, maybe he was going to be part of then.


Wasn't Morrison already planning to bring Jason back into the Bat-Family even before *Flashpoint*? Wasn't he already showing that in _Inc_ (Vol. 1) when he was having Batman present the Wingman identity to an unseen person in (possibly) issue #6 of the first volume?

----------


## godisawesome

I believe so. In general, it felt like the Batbooks were moving towards another new status quo similar to the one Assam described right before the New 52. Tim especially was going to be launching a new myth arc about the seeming immortal who appeared in his last major arc, with a new hideout in the Monarch Theater and a new status to his relationship with Tam as partners/potential love interestes. And Cass was going to have an arc in Red Robin featuring Cricket.

Darn it. Now I'm back to getting frustrated with TEC Tim being only corrected back to Geoff Johns-era Teen Titans. Mad scientist Tim just isn't as interesting to me as Red Robin Tim. Even though their flaws are similar, there was a much more subtle and self-aware side to Red Robin Tim's control freak tendencies, and he wasn't blind to the way his actions would be perceived by those around him. 

It's still _leagues_ better than New 52 Tim, but it feels more like a shallow caricature than the fairly fleshed out and self-reflective Tim from the best stories in his solos. Some of that is functional; Tynion is writing TEC as an ensemble story with only a few real stabs at in depth character analysis, and if he's based his Tim off Johns's Tim, than he's going to be a bit less fleshed out. But it's still disappointing.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I believe so. In general, it felt like the Batbooks were moving towards another new status quo similar to the one Assam described right before the New 52. Tim especially was going to be launching a new myth arc about the seeming immortal who appeared in his last major arc, with a new hideout in the Monarch Theater and a new status to his relationship with Tam as partners/potential love interestes. And Cass was going to have an arc in Red Robin featuring Cricket.
> 
> Darn it. Now I'm back to getting frustrated with TEC Tim being only corrected back to Geoff Johns-era Teen Titans. Mad scientist Tim just isn't as interesting to me as Red Robin Tim. Even though their flaws are similar, there was a much more subtle and self-aware side to Red Robin Tim's control freak tendencies, and he wasn't blind to the way his actions would be perceived by those around him. 
> 
> It's still _leagues_ better than New 52 Tim, but it feels more like a shallow caricature than the fairly fleshed out and self-reflective Tim from the best stories in his solos. Some of that is functional; Tynion is writing TEC as an ensemble story with only a few real stabs at in depth character analysis, and if he's based his Tim off Johns's Tim, than he's going to be a bit less fleshed out. But it's still disappointing.


Its a retread, the culmination of Red Robin was a Tim Drake who realized he could get a little crazy sometimes and that he needed his friends to check him if he doesn't pump the brakes.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Its a retread, the culmination of Red Robin was a Tim Drake who realized he could get a little crazy sometimes and that he needed his friends to check him if he doesn't pump the brakes.


But Rebirth Tim has no friends  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> But Rebirth Tim has no friends


I mean, would _you_ want to be friends with this goober?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

Cant tim become Oracle, he can really mkae the Batcave into a Headquaters/Dark JL for the Batfamily

----------


## sakuyamons

> I mean, would _you_ want to be friends with this goober?


He can hack my college’s database so I get a better GPA  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> I believe so. In general, it felt like the Batbooks were moving towards another new status quo similar to the one Assam described right before the New 52. Tim especially was going to be launching a new myth arc about the seeming immortal who appeared in his last major arc, with a new hideout in the Monarch Theater and a new status to his relationship with Tam as partners/potential love interestes. And Cass was going to have an arc in Red Robin featuring Cricket.
> 
> Darn it. Now I'm back to getting frustrated with TEC Tim being only corrected back to Geoff Johns-era Teen Titans. Mad scientist Tim just isn't as interesting to me as Red Robin Tim. Even though their flaws are similar, there was a much more subtle and self-aware side to Red Robin Tim's control freak tendencies, and he wasn't blind to the way his actions would be perceived by those around him. 
> 
> It's still _leagues_ better than New 52 Tim, but it feels more like a shallow caricature than the fairly fleshed out and self-reflective Tim from the best stories in his solos. Some of that is functional; Tynion is writing TEC as an ensemble story with only a few real stabs at in depth character analysis, and if he's based his Tim off Johns's Tim, than he's going to be a bit less fleshed out. But it's still disappointing.


Where do people get that Johns' Tim was a mad scientist? He was only really that way after Conner's death, which was about Johns' last arc before he left the book.

----------


## Cmbmool

You know what they say about good intentions going awry. If Bruce doesn’t shut down Tim soon, then the future that Tim feared is already coming true even if Tim doesn’t realize it yet.  


Still this Rebirth version of Tim is way better than the New 52 one. Now the only question left is what is the status of Tim’s parents in DC Rebirth ?

----------


## Sweet-Tsubaki

> I've said it before and I'll say it again; the biggest issue with Geoff Johns's run on Teen Totans was that while _he_ could, by and large, write his changes in the characters, once they took two of his toys away, he slipped, and then nobody ever really made his changes work again.
> 
> His first few arcs in the comic _mostly_ feel contiguous with their portrayals in Young Justice and their solos, using Graduation Day as an excuse for their more melancholy moods (even if that book _sucked._) He used Tim as a hard-to-ruffle straight man just like PAD did... Until he made him a mad scientist.


The mad scientist thing works better when you've read Adventure Comics #3 and realize he probably just plugged the machine, tried to put either Kon's DNA or a lix of Luthor's and clark and just let it run its course because it was alrezdy programmed. 





> So partially because of curiosity and partially because i think that we need some possitivity, i wanted to ask, what was your first Tim Drake story and why do you like him?


I discovered him in the Young Justice issue where Mr. Sarcastic appeared 'nuff said. 
Anyway after that I just read chronologically. 
Basically I liked that he wasn't a genius character or a planner, that he was oportunistic and that his strength lied in understanding (finding holes in other people' s plans and noticing things others would overlook), I liked that he was a hard worker and that he wasn't the best at computer programming (he was the one who liked it the most but considering how quickly Dick and Jason caught up, I'd say he isn't the one with the most potential), I liked that Bart fit the genius trope better and that he was better at programming and peetty much every scientist thing but that Tim was considered more intelligent because his intelligence lied in understanding through induction / deduction, rather than just knowledge. I liked that he was very talkative and had weird monologues without having Dick's wit (which was kind of cruel). He had anger issues but he often try to reign it in and he acted liked everyone's babysitter/dad which was fun (tho sexist sometimes)... it's kind of what made me dislike his romantic relationship with Steph seeing as their dynamic was pretty much that of a father with his child (understanding considering their own personality and history but still creepy to me), having them stay mentor/mentee would have saved them both a lot of melodrama... 
Plus reading his first few years I felt terrible for him. I mean between the PTSD, the developing personality disorder and the neglect (to which Verbal abuse was added when Jack woke up) I can't help but think that meeting Bruce and Dick was the best thing that happened in his life (making Dick the only Robin to have had a good life befire becoming Robin).
And then his friendship with Kon which I love because Kon was one of the only people not taking Tim's "crap" and who unconsciously realized Tim wasn't exactly the most stable person around. 
Idk Tim's always been a complex but fairly sweet character who literally just wanted to help. He was a fairly simple kid with tons of issues who's always been kinda suicidal and who loves people too much for his own good. 
Which is why I dislike N52 so much. Not just the hacker stuff, but the guy's relationships all feel so superficial. I feel like I'm watching a psychopath pretending to feel because all his relationships feel very one sided. Not that he does it on purpose. But I like Teen Titans.#0 because it admitted it wasn't Tim so I was like "cool, show le what this new character can be" But then Tynion took over and gave him vague Tim concepts (the staff, Steph) which made him superficially look like Tim but of you stop and think for a second itns like... what the hell? While I think he would become quite interesting as a psychopath (they don't have to be bad guys after all), trying to mix his personality with Preboot Tim now can only lead to disaster (ie A Lonely Place of Living. That thing was a complete mess. I didn't expect much but this is ridiculously bad. It felt like having preboot! Tim seen through the prism of N52! Tim's personality and it clashes)

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Where do people get that Johns' Tim was a mad scientist? He was only really that way after Conner's death, which was about Johns' last arc before he left the book.


Still, the most mad sciency Tim has ever been (when he tried to reclone his dead best friend) was in that arc.

----------


## Frontier

> Still, the most mad sciency Tim has ever been (when he tried to reclone his dead best friend) was in that arc.


I know, but it's not like that was Tim across his entire run, and it was deliberately meant to be seen as something Tim was doing under extreme duress and desperation.

----------


## Sweet-Tsubaki

> Still, the most mad sciency Tim has ever been (when he tried to reclone his dead best friend) was in that arc.


true as "the most" but it doesn't mean he was a mad scientist. A mad scientist is a scientist turned well mad. And Tim was just never a scientist. It all goes back to his opportunistic side : he saw an opportunity and he seized it.

----------


## Sweet-Tsubaki

> Frankly, i think that Steph and the YJ crew are the indispensable ones, without those Tim is not him. Helena?, well we lost Cry of the Huntres, but the biggest contribution of that mini was meeting Ariana and Jack Drake awakening from his coma, JPV contribution was kicking him out of the batcave wich force him to go solo, i think that you can find easy explanations for that one. Steph was a constant supporting characther so she is the most problematic, specially for coming oit of Batman Eternal, YJ could still work thougth. The other one is Cass, but she wasn't mucy of constant presence in his life in spite of their friendship, so if Tynion get over his ass and actually show us both interacting, if not difficult to bring then back as they were in the preflashpoint canon.


Steph wasn't that importabt to Tim's story as in, she didn't really impact his character growth (her death could have but ultimately his father's and Kon's outshined hers). It's quite the opposite as Tim had a huge impact on her (being the first person to give a crap about her and everything) 
It actually created a huge imbalance of power between them

Helena was one of the first vigilante he teamed up with outside of the Batfam. Along with the guy in his first mini series she showed him he was right to try and team up even with non Batman approved people. 
As for JPV, It's when Tim discovered he enjoyed mentoring people, something he's been doing his whole career (I call him the babysitter for a reason).

----------


## TheCape

> true as "the most" but it doesn't mean he was a mad scientist. A mad scientist is a scientist turned well mad. And Tim was just never a scientist. It all goes back to his opportunistic side : he saw an opportunity and he seized it.


I prefer to see it like that too, it helps that the clonning actually failed.

----------


## TheCape

> Steph wasn't that importabt to Tim's story as in, she didn't really impact his character growth (her death could have but ultimately his father's and Kon's outshined hers). It's quite the opposite as Tim had a huge impact on her (being the first person to give a crap about her and everything) 
> It actually created a huge imbalance of power between them
> 
> Helena was one of the first vigilante he teamed up with outside of the Batfam. Along with the guy in his first mini series she showed him he was right to try and team up even with non Batman approved people. 
> As for JPV, It's when Tim discovered he enjoyed mentoring people, something he's been doing his whole career (I call him the babysitter for a reason).


I said that she is important because she was a constant presence in the supporting cast, mostly because i was trying to find a way to fit things back together in the new continuity in poor attempt to bring his story back. I do agreed that his father and Kon outshined her, thougth, Tim's relationship with Jack was a defining thing for the characther even during the "Tim Wayne" days (hell his memories of him were the reason of why he didn't kill Boomerang at the end of RR), you made a decent argument for Helena and JPV, althougth i think that those can be easily changed with other characthers. Funny enougth, i also agreed that Tim and Steph had an umbalaced dynamic and they should had a change in that regard, but i read it more like teacher/student that father/kid personally, Tim always struck me as a "little proffesor" kind of person more than anything else.

----------


## king81992

Tim being a 'mad scientist' could have been interesting if it was a running gag for his character. Instead Johns played it completely straight with Tim trying to clone Kon and it left a terrible impression on a lot of people.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Tim being a 'mad scientist' could have been interesting if it was a running gag for his character. Instead Johns played it completely straight with Tim trying to clone Kon and it left a terrible impression on a lot of people.


I’d say it wasn’t tbat bad because it failed, Tynion’s Tim would’ve succeeded  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Making out with your bros’ girlfriend does leave bad impressions though.

----------


## sakuyamons

So, Supersons of Tomorrow preview is out and I found this hilarious I don't know why, maybe it's because it's Bruce being tired of Tim's nonsense.

SM-37-4.jpg

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I’d say it wasn’t tbat bad because it failed, Tynion’s Tim would’ve succeeded 
> 
> Making out with your bros’ girlfriend does leave bad impressions though.


Ha! You're absolutely right. 

And yeah, that preview makes me chuckle. I'm ready to see Tim get his ass beat.

----------


## sakuyamons

Jiménez’ Bruce looks so good though  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Jiménez Bruce looks so good though


He really does look nice here

----------


## TheCape

> So, Supersons of Tomorrow preview is out and I found this hilarious I don't know why, maybe it's because it's Bruce being tired of Tim's nonsense.
> 
> SM-37-4.jpg


Kick his ass Bruce, kick his ass.

----------


## Frontier

> So, Supersons of Tomorrow preview is out and I found this hilarious I don't know why, maybe it's because it's Bruce being tired of Tim's nonsense.
> 
> SM-37-4.jpg


I don't think I've ever been more satisfied to see Bruce fight an evil Robin since his final fight with Red Hood  :Cool: . 

Heck, the fight even moves into a bathroom and someone throws a kitchen sink  :Wink: .

----------


## KrustyKid

Love my Tim, but I'm in team Bruce's corner for this, lol

----------


## sakuyamons

I’m not reading ‘Tec right now but Tim’s “descent” into darkness sounds interesting, but the execution sounds like it’s not.

----------


## Frontier

> I’m not reading ‘Tec right now but Tim’s “descent” into darkness sounds interesting, but the execution sounds like it’s not.


I don't think Tim is going to come out of this looking good, but that's just the sense I'm getting. 

It also feels weird to see them playing up Bruce and Tim's partnership when Tim isn't even Bruce's Robin anymore, but I guess Tynion is kind of writing Tim like he still is.

----------


## Barbatos666

Did anyone read the latest Injustice? it had some nice moments but then Injustice did some Injusting, shocking.

----------


## Aioros22

"Young Justice? Lol nope".

----------


## CPSparkles

> Did anyone read the latest Injustice? it had some nice moments but then Injustice did some Injusting, shocking.


I did. Tom Taylor is a mean tease. That was shocking and funny at the same time. Takes care of the Red Robin plot thread about time Bruce went looking for him..

----------


## TheCape

> Did anyone read the latest Injustice? it had some nice moments but then Injustice did some Injusting, shocking.


Yup, shocking and kind of funny at the same time, but to be honest i lost interest in the Injustice universe a long time ago, so it didn't bother me.

----------


## yohyoi

It's still okay. It's not like he died because of a rock. Thanks Tom Taylor...

----------


## Alycat

> Did anyone read the latest Injustice? it had some nice moments but then Injustice did some Injusting, shocking.


I got a good laugh from it. Its been a minute since Injustice was funny again.

----------


## TruthAndJustice

OK, Tim Drake. I like him. Easily the smartest Robin. And I like smart characters.

But. If we're going to call him "Red Robin" then shouldn't he be in a costume that looks different from a "regular" Robin costume? The double-R emblem just looks BAD.

I hated the New 52 costume too. I didn't hate the Alex Ross "Kingdom Come" costume. If he went back to that, would many of you complain? I wouldn't.

----------


## KrustyKid

> OK, Tim Drake. I like him. Easily the smartest Robin. And I like smart characters.
> 
> But. If we're going to call him "Red Robin" then shouldn't he be in a costume that looks different from a "regular" Robin costume? The double-R emblem just looks BAD.
> 
> I hated the New 52 costume too. I didn't hate the Alex Ross "Kingdom Come" costume. If he went back to that, would many of you complain? I wouldn't.


Yah. I agree 100%. Tim's current getup looks like... well, 'just another Robin'. He needs an upgrade big time.

----------


## RedBird

> Did anyone read the latest Injustice? it had some nice moments but then Injustice did some Injusting, shocking.


Yeah, what a tease!

Though Admittedly the injustice verse is just so removed and that moment was so out of nowhere that I kinda just laughed. Like god dammit, of course. Of course *spoilers:*
he would get shot and die within two minutes, 
*end of spoilers* what was I expecting? Though at least the moment between the Titans, and Tim and Bruce was nice.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yah. I agree 100%. Tim's current getup looks like... well, 'just another Robin'. He needs an upgrade big time.


To's RR adjustment was definitely the best "post robin" costume he's had.

----------


## Rac7d*

I guess I see it now, If you have a bo staff in your hand you must be Tim drake other wise that Damian wayne right there
He needs a new costume pronto, that looks so much like damian's type of robin costume I am suprised he hasnt had a tantrum about it

----------


## TheCape

> I guess I see it now, If you have a bo staff in your hand you must be Tim drake other wise that Damian wayne right there
> He needs a new costume pronto, that looks so much like damian's type of robin costume I am suprised he hasnt had a tantrum about it


Eh, it look more like his original Robin suit that anything else, althougth i agreed with the sentiment.

----------


## Frontier

> I guess I see it now, If you have a bo staff in your hand you must be Tim drake other wise that Damian wayne right there
> He needs a new costume pronto, that looks so much like damian's type of robin costume I am suprised he hasnt had a tantrum about it


I don't really see Damian in there. I guess the "stern, condescending, stare" is a patented Damian Robin look, but otherwise it still resembles Tim to me.

That being said, I do think Tim doesn't need to basically be running around in a variant of his old Robin look if he's going to be "Red Robin" instead of just Robin.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't really see Damian in there. I guess the "stern, condescending, stare" is a patented Damian Robin look, but otherwise it still resembles Tim to me.
> 
> That being said, I do think Tim doesn't need to basically be running around in a variant of his old Robin look if he's going to be "Red Robin" instead of just Robin.


That daiman haircute, thats his cape
this desighn seems to be taken from the Arkham city look which was also inlfluenced by damian

----------


## shadowsgirl

> That daiman haircute, thats his cape
> this desighn seems to be taken from the Arkham city look which was also inlfluenced by damian


No, it's Tim's cape.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> That daiman haircute, thats his cape
> this desighn seems to be taken from the Arkham city look which was also inlfluenced by damian


The hood was the only part really influenced by Damian.   Everything else in the Arkham designed was pretty much armored versions of Tim's gear.

----------


## Midnighter

> That daiman haircute, thats his cape
> this desighn seems to be taken from the Arkham city look which was also inlfluenced by damian


No it isn't. *It's Tim's.*

If it seems like it was influenced by Damian , that's because Damian's costume was heavily influenced by Tim's in the first place. As have all modern Robin costumes since Tim's introduction _almost 30 years ago_.

----------


## godisawesome

> To's RR adjustment was definitely the best "post robin" costume he's had.


To' adjustment was largely a Timm-style streamlining, which maintained the simplified design even more. Kind FO the exact opposite of the New 52 costume, with all the extra strap, bells, whistles, and wings.

----------


## CPSparkles

Regardless of whose cape it is or what/who influenced it the ere fact that we are having this discussion is evidence enough that he is in dire need of a change. I don't see anyone discussing how Hood or Nightwing's look is inspired by a role they long out grew. Visual aesthetics go a long way in defining and selling a character. Tim isn't Robin yet he still dresses as one except with ya know 2 RRs like some knock off Prada bag. Not good.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

I really want these goofballs back.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

It's a pity they made Lagoon Boy so unlikable in the Young Justice animated series. I always liked his comic version.

----------


## Assam

> It's a pity they made Lagoon Boy so unlikable in the Young Justice animated series. I always liked his comic version.


Comic Lagoon Boy is fantastic. I don't dislike YJ Lagoon Boy at all though. He could be a bit of jerk at times, but I mostly just felt bad for him and his abuse at the hands of the sociopathic monster that is M'gann.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Comic Lagoon Boy is fantastic. I don't dislike YJ Lagoon Boy at all though. He could be a bit of jerk at times, but I mostly just felt bad for him and his abuse at the hands of the sociopathic monster that is M'gann.


His Neptun's Beard catchphrase was annoying.  :Big Grin:  But okay, you have a point. M'gann was way more unsympathetic than La'gaan in season 2. Although I liked M'gann in the Teen Titans comics, her animated counterpart wasn't the best written character at all.

----------


## Assam

> His Neptun's Beard catchphrase was annoying.


I'll definitely give you that.  :Wink:

----------


## Pohzee

Lagoon Boy was the only new member to S2 that I thought was interesting and I liked Miss Martian's character arc.

----------


## Assam

> I liked Miss Martian's character arc.


I personally fail to see how she underwent any sort of arc. She's a horrible person at the start and nothing within the show itself leads me to think she learned anything. She never faces any real consequences for her actions and she only feels bad about certain things when they directly affect her. And a plot where an extremely powerful character abuses their power, including using it on their romantic partner by erasing a memory of a fight over the abuse of their power, resulting in a break up, and the character abusing their power even further? Buffy already laid out the road map for how to do that plot right.

----------


## Pohzee

I've not watched Buffy, so I really can't compare it, but I thought it was an interesting plot that could only happen in a superhero universe and could definitely see happening a soap opera teen drama.

----------


## Assam

> I've not watched Buffy.


I'd say I highly recommend it and you should check it out, but you've probably heard that _a lot_ :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

I've actually never had it recommended, but I'm not a fan of Whedon.

And to stay relevent to the thread, I have two things to say regarding Tim's costume:

1.) Part of the reason he looks so much like Damian on that cover is that he has black pants and green boots, which is a Damian thing.

2.) The only "notes" that Damian's costume took from Tim's was that it wasn't Dick Grayson's. He has a tradition Robin tunic more like Dick's than than Tim (comes under the belt and no red trunks), he has long, black sleeves (Tim had short sleeves), black pants, green combat boots, and a hood. The only common element between him and Tim that isn't in common with Dick is the pants. I actually think with the tunic and the green boots that it is closer to a modernization of Dick's costume than Tim's.

----------


## Rac7d*

So is he not Red Robin anymore?

----------


## KrustyKid

> So is he not Red Robin anymore?


He is. It's just that Tim's current suit doesn't exactly scream 'Red' Robin.

Also, team Robin

tumblr_occ9nsXofb1t673dro1_1280.jpg

----------


## sakuyamons

future tim apparently has a new code name on TT, I wish present Tim took a hint or two.

----------


## KrustyKid

> future tim apparently has a new code name on TT, I wish present Tim took a hint or two.


Yah. There really isn't much weight to the Red Robin name like Pre-52. I think it's time for a change.

----------


## Korath

> Yah. There really isn't much weight to the Red Robin name like Pre-52. I think it's time for a change.


Even before New 52, the Red Robin name was pretty stupid. It was almost as if D.C. had wanted to keep him in the back to return to the Robin's role if Damian ended extremely unpopular, but because of it, Tim has hardly changed a character since then. At best, he became a poor copy of Batman in his Red Robin solo.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Even before New 52, the Red Robin name was pretty stupid. It was almost as if D.C. had wanted to keep him in the back to return to the Robin's role if Damian ended extremely unpopular, but because of it, *Tim has hardly changed a character since then. At best, he became a poor copy of Batman in his Red Robin solo*.


That is untrue. Tim, Pre-New 52 made plenty of character progression from the start of the Red Robin series towards what we got at the end of it. He started off a bit lost and unsure of his position. And by the end he seemed to have a pretty good grasp for what he wanted to do and how to accomplish it going forward. Sure, he shared some similarities to Batman(what Robin boy doesn't?), but it was clear from the final issue of the Red Robin series that there was a difference between the two(Tim/Bruce), from a moral standpoint in particular. Though, even with Pre-52 I still think Tim could have gone with a different name, something not attached to 'Robin', since he was trying to distance himself from the Bat Fam at that period in time(When he first took on the Red Robin name).

With current Tim, what is even the reason for the 'Red Robin' name? But with that said, if he is to change it there should be a good reason for him to do so. Not just for the sake of change. Any good role or name change should hold some kind of weight to it.

----------


## Midnighter

> Even before New 52, the Red Robin name was pretty stupid. It was almost as if D.C. had wanted to keep him in the back to return to the Robin's role if Damian ended extremely unpopular, but because of it, Tim has hardly changed a character since then. At best, he became a poor copy of Batman in his Red Robin solo.


Actually GM had plans for Damian to be killed off, if I am remembering correctly. He was intended as a character with a shelf life. But he proved popular so he was kept on and allowed to develop long term as a permanent character.





> That is untrue. Tim, Pre-New 52 made plenty of character progression from the start of the Red Robin series towards what we got at the end of it. He started off a bit lost and unsure of his position. And by the end he seemed to have a pretty good grasp for what he wanted to do and how to accomplish it going forward. Sure, he shared some similarities to Batman(what Robin boy doesn't?), but it was clear from the final issue of the Red Robin series that there was a difference between the two(Tim/Bruce), from a moral standpoint in particular. Though, even with Pre-52 I still think Tim could have gone with a different name, something not attached to 'Robin', since he was trying to distance himself from the Bat Fam at that period in time(When he first took on the Red Robin name).


^This.

----------


## Assam

> Actually GM had plans for Damian to be killed off, if I am remembering correctly. He was intended as a character with a shelf life. But he proved popular so he was kept on and allowed to develop long term as a permanent character..


Mostly right, but shaky on the details.  Damian wasn't just meant to have a "shelf life", he was meant to die at the end of his introductory storyline. Morrison decided though that it'd make his death more tragic if he made him Robin and gave him years to develop and grow a fanbase. By the time he did kill him, he probably knew he'd grown popular enough that DC would almost immediately bring him back, but in his mind, that was supposed to be it for Damian.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Rac7d*

why cant he go back to wearing red

----------


## godisawesome

Anyone else notice the mis-colored cameo of the old Red Robin suit in this week's Batman?

----------


## shadowsgirl

Christmas with the Joker. What could possibly go wrong?

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Conner

----------


## dietrich

> Mostly right, but shaky on the details.  Damian wasn't just meant to have a "shelf life", he was meant to die at the end of his introductory storyline. 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Morrison decided though that it'd make his death more tragic if he made him Robin and gave him years to develop and grow a fanbase.
> 			
> 		
> 
>  By the time he did kill him, he probably knew he'd grown popular enough that DC would almost immediately bring him back, but in his mind, that was supposed to be it for Damian.


Really? Can you please provide a source  for this little reveal. I've listened to and read lots of interviews where he talked about his original plans for character and the reason why he didn't kill him as early as planned but I've never heard that part.

----------


## Assam

> Really? Can you please provide a source  for this little reveal. I've listened to and read lots of interviews where he talked about his original plans for character and the reason why he didn't kill him as early as planned but I've never heard that part.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...-book/2037669/

----------


## KrustyKid

A little patrol action

batman_and_the_robins_by_caffeinecat-d3hyrrx.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

There are many ways in and out of the Batcave.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim, Dick and Jean-Paul

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Tam were so great together. Tam was a good sidekick.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

They changed the design. On the original sketch his figure looks like Rebirth Tim, but his suit and hair on the new poster resembles his Pre-Flashpoint design.

----------


## godisawesome

It certainly *looks* like Tim in his best, Marcus To drawn design...

And man, are those Red Robin scans making me nostalgic... And I'm not going to lie, when I realized we had two separate female characters dual wielding guns in skintight clothing, one named _P_romise and the other _P_rudence, I was half certain we'd see a _P_atience and _P_urity before it was all said and done. :Cool:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It certainly *looks* like Tim in his best, Marcus To drawn design...
> 
> And man, are those Red Robin scans making me nostalgic... And I'm not going to lie, when I realized we had two separate female characters dual wielding guns in skintight clothing, one named _P_romise and the other _P_rudence, I was half certain we'd see a _P_atience and _P_urity before it was all said and done.


Yes, it's the Marcus To design, which I love, so I will have to buy it. I guess it won't be cheap. :Big Grin: 

Well, we could ask Fabian Nicieza about that, but he won't give a clear answer. He wants to write Tim again (come on DC, let him!!!!!!) so he wants to keep everything in secret. He didn't even tell on Twitter who was Lynx II. He said that we will never know. It's not fair, I really want to know if she was a cop, or not. I love Yost and Nicieza's Tim, it's my favourite interpretation of the character. Dixon's Tim will always be the sweetest thing on Earth, but nobody can stay an adorable, sometimes innocently naive kid forever. Tim experienced a lot of loss and pain, so he had to grow up. I always feel sadness when I re-read the Red Robin series, because it's so good. That series had a lot of potential, but the reboot ruined everything. I'm not sure if Tim will ever recover. Lobdell completely destroyed the character, and Tynion's just making things even worse. I don't want to dislike my favourite character, but he isn't likeable anymore. His New52/ Rebirth personality is obnoxious and I'm sick of his technobabble. The whole super hacker genius thing is a dead end. I completely understand why Tim has so many haters nowadays. But a lot of people don't know that it's not the real Tim, just a shallow, fake version. The real Tim died in 2011, and I'm not sure if he will ever come back. So thanks for that idiotic reboot again DC, you guys sure know how to ruin a beloved character with rich history and so much depth. It doesn’t matter that you had spent 22 years to develop him, because it’s so much fun when you can throw everything out of the window. 

Maybe he regained his original origin recently, but it's too little too late.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Yes, it's the Marcus To design, which I love, so I will have to buy it. I guess it won't be cheap.
> 
> Well, we could ask Fabian Nicieza about that, but he won't give a clear answer. He wants to write Tim again (come on DC, let him!!!!!!) so he wants to keep everything in secret. He didn't even tell on Twitter who was Lynx II. He said that we will never know. It's not fair, I really want to know if she was a cop, or not. I love Yost and Nicieza's Tim, it's my favourite interpretation of the character. Dixon's Tim will always be the sweetest thing on Earth, but nobody can stay an adorable, sometimes innocently naive kid forever. Tim experienced a lot of loss and pain, so he had to grow up. I always feel sadness when I re-read the Red Robin series, because it's so good. That series had a lot of potential, but the reboot ruined everything. I'm not sure if Tim will ever recover. Lobdell completely destroyed the character, and Tynion's just making things even worse. I don't want to dislike my favourite character, but he isn't likeable anymore. His New52/ Rebirth personality is obnoxious and I'm sick of his technobabble. The whole super hacker genius thing is a dead end. I completely understand why Tim has so many haters nowadays. But a lot of people don't know that it's not the real Tim, just a shallow, fake version. The real Tim died in 2011, and I'm not sure if he will ever come back. So thanks that idiotic reboot again DC, you guys sure know how to ruin a beloved character with rich history and so much depth. It’s doesn’t matter that you had spent 22 years to develop him, because it’s so much fun when you can throw everything out of the window. 
> 
> Maybe he regained his original origin recently, but it's too little too late.


This whole post makes me sad  :Frown:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> This whole post makes me sad


Yeah, me too. And I didn't even write about what Conner, Cassie and Bart had lost. These poor kids all became the unwanted stepchildren of their families.  :Frown:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Kon's memorial and Bart's funeral

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Kid Devil, the party animal VS. Tim, king of the party poopers

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

God that run was bad (And Eddie had so much potential) 

Also, Tim ALWAYS seems to get the worst faces. 

face.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

> God that run was bad (And Eddie had so much potential) 
> 
> Also, Tim ALWAYS seems to get the worst faces. 
> 
> face.jpg


I know you don't like that Teen Titans series, but I love it.  :Big Grin:  It had some really dark moments, but despite of those, it was fun. I loved all the characters and their interactions.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

*2017 was not Tim's year*
Heres the original meme.

----------


## scary harpy

In 2018, at last, we have Tim's new name: Red Boa.

Thanks, Inkdandy.

----------


## oasis1313

> In 2018, at last, we have Tim's new name: Red Boa.
> 
> Thanks, Inkdandy.


Are you serious?  Red Boa??????

----------


## scary harpy

> Are you serious?  Red Boa??????


Of course not.

----------


## wvchemteach

> In 2018, at last, we have Tim's new name: Red Boa.
> 
> Thanks, Inkdandy.


Definitely well done. The boa is a nice touch. I can definitely hear Damian ripping him over it.

----------


## KrustyKid

Ninja Robins,

tumblr_p0hcz0buFv1sd2t3mo1_1280.jpg

----------


## JudasFanny616

That's so frekin cute! I'll always love Damian.

----------


## KrustyKid

True that. The ninja Robins look awesome

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and Ives

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim/Tam plus Ives

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim wasn't that bad, when Greg Pak wrote the Teen Titans just before Rebirth. For the first time since forever, he didn't act like an insufferable jerk. Cassie, on the other hand, was really horrible. Her New52 origin and hostile personality totally broke the character. I really hope she will be more like her Young Justice self, when she returns.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

This is so sad.  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

> 


I'm really not going to miss New 52 Cassie with her bad attitude, thieving, and, if what Tim is looking at is actually her mugshot, criminal record. 



> This is so sad.


It's both heartwarming to see their friendship affirmed and tragic given what happened to Tim...

I wonder if Cassie and Kon are together in this universe?

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yes, I think it's her criminal record. 





If Cassie and Kon can survive long enough, maybe we will actually see them together.
Yeah, it's good to see that Tim and Kon were still best friends in this universe. I don't think they ever said a kind word to each other in the New52. I hope when Doomsday Clock is over, they will be besties again.

----------


## Assam

"You're my Robin. Always will be." "Maybe we should trade both of you in for Batgirl." 

"Yup, Batgirl. Because it's not like I had any kind of connection to the previous one. Certainly didn't have multiple team-ups with her, briefly date her and ultimately befriend her." 

Go f**k off, DC. Stuff like this is part of why I consider the mid-late 2000's (and 2010 and 2011) just as bad as the New 52 overall. Even back then and arguably to a greater extent, DC's poor treatment of characters infected books that didn't even have anything to do with them.

----------


## Frontier

> "You're my Robin. Always will be." "Maybe we should trade both of you in for Batgirl." 
> 
> "Yup, Batgirl. Because it's not like I had any kind of connection to the previous one. Certainly didn't have multiple team-ups with her, briefly date her and ultimately befriend her." 
> 
> Go f**k off, DC. Stuff like this is part of why I consider the mid-late 2000's (and 2010 and 2011) just as bad as the New 52 overall. Even back then and arguably to a greater extent, DC's poor treatment of characters infected books that didn't even have anything to do with them.


That was the complete opposite of my takeaway of that moment, but I respect why you feel that way.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## oasis1313

The cowl was a far better look than the clone-hair over the domino mask.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yup, and To made it even better by giving him expressive spidey eyes.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I love the Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin suit. I really want it back. To's design is the best, but the first one is good, too. Alex Ross did a good job with it in Kingdom Come.

----------


## 9th.

I like the pre-flashpoint look as well. It looked like a weird ear-less version of Batmans cowl to me at first but it grew on me when I read his solo.

----------


## oasis1313

The cowl served Red Robin like the blue did for Nightwing:  It was a sign that he was growing up and becoming his own man.  Now they all look alike.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## ComicBookGeek

Wow that was such a powerful issue.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Wow that was such a powerful issue.


Yeah, it's one of my favourites. : )

After the death of his loved ones, Tim became more mature and darker, but at the end of the day, he didn't give up hope. He had a hard time, and crossed some lines, but the darkness never consumed him entirely. When the Red Robin series started, he was in a bad place mentally, but he never gave up on Bruce. He pushed some people away, but eventually he started to reconnect with his family and friends. I love how surprised Ra's was, when Tim called the others for help. Ra's just assumed that Tim is just like Bruce, and he wants to do everything alone, but Tim was never truly alone.

----------


## Dataweaver

> After the death of his loved ones, Tim became more mature and darker, but in the end of the day, he didn't give up hope.


Darker, yes. But not more mature; Tim has _always_ been unusually mature. If anything, the stunts he pulled in the wake of his father's death (such as hiring an actor to play a long-lost relative instead of just telling Bruce he wanted to be on his own) were surprisingly immature for him by previous standards.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Darker, yes. But not more mature; Tim has _always_ been unusually mature. If anything, the stunts he pulled in the wake of his father's death (such as hiring an actor to play a long-lost relative instead of just telling Bruce he wanted to be on his own) were surprisingly immature for him by previous standards.


Maybe he did some questionable things, but after everything he went through, he wasn't a kid anymore. Yes, he was mature for his age before all the bad things happened, but his way of thinking had changed after those experience. You can clearly see how much his tone and approach has changed, when you compare some of his books prior and after his father's death. 
He hired the actor because he didn't want to hurt Bruce's feelings. The guy just wanted to adopt him and Tim didn't know how he could refuse such a generous offer. But Bruce was actually proud of him. They are both twisted in so many ways.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Dataweaver

Yeah, there's a definite difference before and after; but after was not an improvement over before. At best, he eventually got back to where he had already been before. The whole thing damaged him, and not in a “what doesn't kill me makes me stronger” way.

----------


## godisawesome

I enjoyed Yost and FabNic's portrayal of Tim as a flawed hero at the end of his run; that was a nice twist on Tim's progression. So while he was finally showing ambition matching his skill, he was also overstepping himself at times and having to improvise his way out of situations.

----------


## Dataweaver

I liked Yost's run; but as soon as it hit “the List”, Fabian lost me. Tim caught backlash from the Tower of Babel arc in JLA, even though he wasn't complicit; he knew how damaging to trust it can be to have files on how to take down your allies, and _why_ it's so damaging; and he had just won the day by trusting his friends. So having his own Babel-style list was grating and out of character. Plus, Fabian portrayed him with an arrogance that doesn't suit Tim.

----------


## godisawesome

I can dig that. I know I personally liked it, but it's a subjective desire on my part. Yost had an epic opening story, I just preferred FabNic's more amalgamated serialized/episodic storytelling and liked Tim having a confidence that usually suited him but veered into arrogance at unfortunate times. He generally was still in the right place mentally, but was flexing his muscles a bit too much, in a dramatically interesting way.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I liked Yost's run; but as soon as it hit “the List”, Fabian lost me. Tim caught backlash from the Tower of Babel arc in JLA, even though he wasn't complicit; he knew how damaging to trust it can be to have files on how to take down your allies, and _why_ it's so damaging; and he had just won the day by trusting his friends. So having his own Babel-style list was grating and out of character. Plus, Fabian portrayed him with an arrogance that doesn't suit Tim.




These people weren't actually Tim's friends or closest allies. Supergirl is the only one here who was Tim's friend, but Kara seemed like a supervillain in her series sometimes. They are all potentially dangerous people and most of them have superpowers. I can't blame Tim for his list. And Kon knew this was coming way before Tim realized it.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

It's the cape. Chicks dig the cape.

----------


## godisawesome

Scenes like that are why I love the idea of Tim being a totally clueless chickmagnet. Yeah, it definitely an escapist fantasy aspect of the character, but it's funny.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Scenes like that are why I love the idea of Tim being a totally clueless chickmagnet. Yeah, it definitely an escapist fantasy aspect of the character, but it's funny.


True. It was always entertaining, when girls showed interest in him, but he didn't have a clue what was happening.  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

It was especially funny in Young Justice, with 90's era Superboy trying his darnedest to be a horndog and perpetually hitting on girls.

----------


## KrustyKid

The boys doing their ninja thing;

tumblr_p0hcz0buFv1sd2t3mo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Barbatos666

> These people weren't actually Tim's friends or closest allies. Supergirl is the only one here who was Tim's friend, but Kara seemed like a supervillain in her series sometimes. They are all potentially dangerous people and most of them have superpowers. I can't blame Tim for his list. And Kon knew this was coming way before Tim realized it.


Isn't it hypocritical to have everyone but his own friends and not get called on it. Batman was being pragmatic, Tim is being a dick. Besides I never understood what that list was supposed to signify. Bruce kept actual plans and weapons, Tim has a few names and pictures. Red Robin had some solid basic ideas but I never understood their execution or what they were trying to accomplish. This list, the almost rape, Vicki Vale, Tim getting WE, the search for Bruce, Ulysses becoming Anarky and so on. They just kept on dropping the ball.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Isn't it hypocritical to have everyone but his own friends and not get called on it. Batman was being pragmatic, Tim is being a dick. Besides I never understood what that list was supposed to signify. Bruce kept actual plans and weapons, Tim has a few names and pictures. Red Robin had some solid basic ideas but I never understood their execution or what they were trying to accomplish. This list, the almost rape, Vicki Vale, Tim getting WE, the search for Bruce, Ulysses becoming Anarky and so on. They just kept on dropping the ball.


The series was cancelled because of the reboot. Fabian Nicieza wanted to write Tim for years. He had a lot of plans for him. And you seriously call Tim a dick? It's funny to hear it from someone who’s favourite character is Damian. That kid's behaviour is disgusting. He is disrespectful to everyone.

----------


## Barbatos666

> The series was cancelled because of the reboot. Fabian Nicieza wanted to write Tim for years. He had a lot of plans for him. And you seriously call Tim a dick? It's funny to hear it from someone who’s favourite character is Damian. That kid's behaviour is disgusting. He is disrespectful to everyone.


Damian isn't my favorite character, he's not even my favorite Batfamily member. The cancellation still doesn't account for the hack job they did when it came to the search for Bruce Wayne,the time they wasted on the Vicki Vale subplot which got resolved in Road Home, the tasteless rape non sense, the pointless and wasteful use of Anarky by making it a legacy mantle for Ulysses. Even Alan Grant scoffed at it.

As for being a dick, Damian isn't hypocritical about his dickery and he gets called out on it. Tim is trying to act pragmatic with his list but he isn't because he omitted his friends, so he just he uses Damian's biology an excuse while his bros are related by blood to Luthor and Thawne, so in both ways he comes across as petty.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Damian isn't my favorite character, he's not even my favorite Batfamily member. The cancellation still doesn't account for the hack job they did when it came to the search for Bruce Wayne,the time they wasted on the Vicki Vale subplot which got resolved in Road Home, the tasteless rape non sense, the pointless and wasteful use of Anarky by making it a legacy mantle for Ulysses. Even Alan Grant scoffed at it.
> 
> As for being a dick, Damian isn't hypocritical about his dickery and he gets called out on it. Tim is trying to act pragmatic with his list but he isn't because he omitted his friends, so he just he uses Damian's biology an excuse while his bros are related by blood to Luthor and Thawne, so in both ways he comes across as petty.


Hah, sure dude, whatever you say. I won't argue with you here about Damian, because it's Tim's appreciation thread. You always grab every opportunity to shit on Tim in another threads, so have fun with it. I think you know the way out. Bye.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Hah, sure dude, whatever you say. I won't argue with you here about Damian, because it's Tim's appreciation thread. You always grab every opportunity to shit on Tim in another threads, so have fun with it. I think you know the way out. Bye.


Huh? what threads are you referring to? what opportunities are these? I'm legitimately curious about this. I never even brought up Damian here either. I expressed my disappointment at the Red Robin series bungling its own concepts. I wasn't even thinking about Damian atleast until I remembered the biology part.

----------


## Barbatos666

So I went back and looked up the last 4 pages of my posting history and nowhere did I crap on Tim. There's just one exchange with Frontier also involving Godlike where I questioned DC's overall treatment of Tim during the last decade. Are you confusing me with Korath or something?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> So I went back and looked up the last 4 pages of my posting history and nowhere did I crap on Tim. There's just one exchange with Frontier also involving Godlike where I questioned DC's overall treatment of Tim during the last decade. Are you confusing me with Korath or something?


Oh please, I read a lot of your comments, and you clearly don't like Tim. And like I said, I don't care what you say. I won't argue with you. It's totally pointless.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Oh please, I read a lot of your comments, and you clearly don't like Tim. And like I said, I don't care what you say. I won't argue with you. It's totally pointless.


So you keep saying but you have nothing to prove it. You just made up your mind about a person you dont even know and have never previously interacted with. Your behavior is bizarre and puzzling, almost as if you do have history with me. I'm trying to be nice here despite my confusion but what your behavior amounts to is harassment.

Do you think I hate Tim because I called him a dick? I like Lobo and Deathstroke they're dicks too.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> So you keep saying but you have nothing to prove it. You just made up your mind about a person you dont even know and have never previously interacted with. Your behavior is bizarre and puzzling, almost as if you do have history with me. I'm trying to be nice here despite my confusion but what your behavior amounts to is harassment.
> 
> Do you think I hate Tim because I called him a dick? I like Lobo and Deathstroke they're dicks too.


Dude, are you on meds or something? Jeesh

----------


## Barbatos666

> Dude, are you on meds or something? Jeesh


Your behavior is disgusting, if you want to get banned then I suggest you try other ways instead of using me as scapegoat.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Your behavior is disgusting, if you want to get banned then I suggest you try other ways instead of using me as scapegoat.


You call my behaviour bizarre, puzzling and disgusting, and you think I am the one who will get banned? What part "I don't want to argue with you" you don't understand?

----------


## Barbatos666

You keep harassing me and then end it with "I dont want to argue with you", when I question why you're harassing me you harass me further and then say " I dont want to argue with you".

I quit.

----------


## dietrich

> Dude, are you on meds or something? Jeesh


Listen friend you should think before you type. What exactly does "are you on Meds" mean? and  what if a person is Medicated isn't that a good thing?

Why would you use that in such a derogatory manner? 
Why stigmatise a positive thing?

Get educated and think about what you are typing.
Think and take care you are being very offensive not just to the current poster but to anyone who happens to be on MEDS.

And if you paid more attention to the conversations we have here you would have noticed that a regular member of this appreciation WILL have major issues with that line since directly affects them.

FYI aside from Dick Grayson they are all dicks in that family only some are more honest about their dickery.

----------


## Frontier

I would appreciate it if we could all refrain from personal accusations and get back to discussing and appreciating the character of Tim Drake  :Smile: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> Listen friend you should think before you type. What exactly does "are you on Meds" mean? and  what if a person is Medicated isn't that a good thing?
> 
> Why would you use that in such a derogatory manner? 
> Why stigmatise a positive thing?
> 
> Get educated and think about what you are typing.
> Think and take care you are being very offensive not just to the current poster but to anyone who happens to be on MEDS.
> 
> And if you paid more attention to the conversations we have here you would have noticed that a regular member of this appreciation WILL have major issues with that line since directly affects them.
> ...


I agree with all of this. Insults are unnecessary directed at one another over something as silly as an opinion on what we're discussing. 

I also agree with Frontier, let's get back on that appreciation drive :Cool:

----------


## KrustyKid

Bruce smiling, but not Damian and Jason? Lol

tumblr_p2945vJef21vnmxrwo1_1280.jpg

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He's already dated Steph before and he's had pseudo-romantic interactions with Cass.


Got to know when exactly in the old continuity did Tim and Cassandra Cain show interest in each other?

----------


## Dataweaver

Yeah; my memory of it was that they shared a brother/sister type relationship.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah; my memory of it was that they shared a brother/sister type relationship.


I kind of saw them that way too yet according to the man in charge there was something there but whether the writer's intentions translated well on page is a mystery.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Cass, Steph and Tim

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

Is this from Casstoons? It's pretty hilarious, if somewhat inaccurate.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Is this from Casstoons? It's pretty hilarious, if somewhat inaccurate.


Here is the link  :Smile:  

https://adventuresofcomicbookgirl.wo...tag/batfamily/

----------


## godisawesome

If Tynion is leaving TEC, do you guys want any changes or new turns on Tim's portrayal? Like, say, less hacking as his weapon of choice?

----------


## godisawesome

Oops, double post.

----------


## millernumber1

> If Tynion is leaving TEC, do you guys want any changes or new turns on Tim's portrayal? Like, say, less hacking as his weapon of choice?


Question: when has Tim hacked recently? He's been networking instead of hacking for the past five issues.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> If Tynion is leaving TEC, do you guys want any changes or new turns on Tim's portrayal? Like, say, less hacking as his weapon of choice?


A return of his social life, if not restoring some kind of normal status quo, at the very least let him hang out with Steph and/or Cass in public outside of costume. Ideally, bring Ives back as his old friend who figured out he was Robin a long time ago, and gives him an outside perspective on things. Let his awkwardness shine.

Let him be a detective, examine behavior, find patterns, make conclusions. I'm fine with the networking, but make it targeted. Not just "I hacked it and got the data", but instead "Based on these real world interactions, I'm going to hack into X to find out Y", the act of getting in isn't impressive, more the knowing where to look.

----------


## shadowsgirl

LOL, Tim looks like a real pimp in this picture.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

> A return of his social life, if not restoring some kind of normal status quo, at the very least let him hang out with Steph and/or Cass in public outside of costume. Ideally, bring Ives back as his old friend who figured out he was Robin a long time ago, and gives him an outside perspective on things. Let his awkwardness shine.
> 
> Let him be a detective, examine behavior, find patterns, make conclusions. I'm fine with the networking, but make it targeted. Not just "I hacked it and got the data", but instead "Based on these real world interactions, I'm going to hack into X to find out Y", the act of getting in isn't impressive, more the knowing where to look.


I'm in full agreement for something like this

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm in full agreement for something like this


Thanks! Ha I just want a more mature version of Dixon!Tim

Hey shadows, if its not too much trouble could you spoiler tag more risque fan art in the future? 

I browse this forum at work from time to time

----------


## oasis1313

> LOL, Tim looks like a real pimp in this picture.


I think Tim should be gay.  The girls are hanging around because they know he won't harass them.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Hey shadows, if its not too much trouble could you spoiler tag more risque fan art in the future? 
> 
> I browse this forum at work from time to time


Ok  :Smile: 

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I think Tim should be gay.  The girls are hanging around because they know he won't harass them.


I know you’re trolling, like always, but anyway, Tim is straight since 1989. It would be pointless to change his sexual orientation. He's had a couple of girlfriends, and he never showed attraction towards men. If you want to read about a gay teen at DC, I suggest Bunker.  :Cool:

----------


## shadowsgirl

These are really cute.

----------


## Dataweaver

…and bizarre.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know you’re trolling, like always, but anyway, Tim is straight since 1989. It would be pointless to change his sexual orientation. He's had a couple of girlfriends, and he never showed attraction towards men. If you want to read about a gay teen at DC, I suggest Bunker.


I personally agree with you, but all the Young Justice people seem to think quite firmly that he is in love with Kon.

----------


## Dataweaver

“All”? Hardly. I'm a big YJ fan, and I always found the notion of a Tim/Kon romance to be ludicrous.

----------


## TheCape

> “All”? Hardly. I'm a big YJ fan, and I always found the notion of a Tim/Kon romance to be ludicrous.


Well is definetly Tim most popular pairing out there (to be fair i think than that is the case with most of the M/M pairings out there), personally i see where the idea comes from, but they are without a doubt just good bros.

----------


## Sardorim

> I think Tim should be gay.  The girls are hanging around because they know he won't harass them.


But he isn't. Dude isn't even a virgin anymore as he slept with Cassie and Stephanie.

Tim.also is dating Cassie in the YJ series too.

-

On another note. Decided to catch up on IJ2 comic but... Well, I heard Tim was killed off like nothing. Is this true?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> On another note. Decided to catch up on IJ2 comic but... Well, I heard Tim was killed off like nothing. Is this true?


Yes, Tim died almost immediately after he left the Phantom Zone.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim looks very muscular. It’s so weird when he seems bigger than Dick or Jason.

----------


## Katana500

Tim is built like a tank there! Why is he so tall?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim is built like a tank there! Why is he so tall?


Who knows? He looks way older than 16. He seemed pretty big in Convergence too, but he was at least 19 there.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Tim is built like a tank there! Why is he so tall?


Yeah, those proportions look a bit off. And it seems like he skipped the leg day.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Maybe it's Future Titans Tim in disguise as regular Tim LOL.

----------


## Aioros22

"They`ll never see that coming!"

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Maybe it's Future Titans Tim in disguise as regular Tim LOL.


That would be hilarious.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batman: Scarecrow 3-D. The issue looks pretty cool with 3D glasses. Despite the comic's title, Batman is just secondary. Tim is the main character.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

DC Legends

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, those proportions look a bit off. And it seems like he skipped the leg day.


Its weird out of costumer he like half of jason Hieght in costumer he is jsut as tall and built
I dont understand

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Its weird out of costumer he like half of jason Hieght in costumer he is jsut as tall and built
> I dont understand


I think nobody understands it. Every artist draws him with different height and weight. These are from Batman and Robin Eternal:

issue #7



issue #23

----------


## godisawesome

A lot of artists struggle with drawing teenage characters; when Tim was Robin, about a third of the artists always drew him much closer to a child than a 16 year old. However, I think the bigger issue now is that artists tend to draw him relative to how they and the story view him; he grows larger and more imposing if he's in the same scene as Damian, Steph, or the Rowes, and smaller if he's with the older Robins or Batman.




> DC Legends


Sweeeeeeet. And his power up involves the better mask in the cowl!

----------


## Aahz

> Tim is built like a tank there! Why is he so tall?


The heights are in general a little of in comparison to the official stats.

Based on them:
- Tim, Steph and Cass should all be around the same height
- Jean Paul should be the same height as Bruce
- Kate should be taller than Luke

----------


## KrustyKid

It's clear Tim unleashes his ultimate form while in suit

----------


## CPSparkles

inspired by.....

----------


## KrustyKid

> inspired by.....


Pretty accurate for pre-52, lol

----------


## Rac7d*

> The heights are in general a little of in comparison to the official stats.
> 
> Based on them:
> - Tim, Steph and Cass should all be around the same height
> - Jean Paul should be the same height as Bruce
> - Kate should be taller than Luke


so is tim or is he not in a power suit, its not just a uniform armor
which is why he is so big in the costume, but maintains his indenity

----------


## KrustyKid

> so is tim or is he not in a power suit, its not just a uniform armor
> which is why he is so big in the costume, but maintains his indenity


Power-suit? Lol

----------


## Assam

> I personally agree with you, but all the Young Justice people seem to think quite firmly that he is in love with Kon.


Not Young Justice and not all. It's a good portion of the '03 Teen Titans fans. In YJ, while there were definitely some..._passionate_ moments with Tim and Kon, that was mostly down to their contrasting attitudes and on the whole, they weren't shown as being any closer to each other than they were to Bart. 




> And if you paid more attention to the conversations we have here you would have noticed that a regular member of this appreciation WILL have major issues with that line since directly affects them.


I know we don't always get along, but I do really appreciate the thought. 




> FYI aside from Dick Grayson they are all dicks in that family only some are more honest about their dickery.


Nah, Dick's as bad as the rest. They're all just dicks in their own unique ways.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Not Young Justice and not all. It's a good portion of the '03 Teen Titans fans. In YJ, while there were definitely some..._passionate_ moments with Tim and Kon, that was mostly down to their contrasting attitudes and on the whole, they weren't shown as being any closer to each other than they were to Bart. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know we don't always get along, but I do really appreciate the thought. 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nah, Dick's as bad as the rest. They're all just dicks in their own unique ways*.


Now That I think about it, you're kind of right.

----------


## dietrich

> Not Young Justice and not all. It's a good portion of the '03 Teen Titans fans. In YJ, while there were definitely some..._passionate_ moments with Tim and Kon, that was mostly down to their contrasting attitudes and on the whole, they weren't shown as being any closer to each other than they were to Bart. 
> 
> 
> 
> I know we don't always get along, but I do really appreciate the thought.


Welcome back and don't mention. We are a supposed to a community after all that how do  :Smile:

----------


## TomServofan

What do you all think of Bruce Timm's version of the character even on the fourth season of TAS?

----------


## Dataweaver

They may have called him Tim Drake; but in every way that matters, he was Jason Todd.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They may have called him Tim Drake; but in every way that matters, he was Jason Todd.


Kind of odd that they used Jason's background in the place of Tim's own one but Tim just cannot seem to exist without Jason coming in first and there was no reason to believe that Batmn in the DCAU had gone off the deep end without Robin in his life. So it makes sense to a large degree.

PS: I still have some issues with A Lonely Place of Dying's reasoning for Tim Drake.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

He might have had Jason's origin, but he had Tim's personality moreso than Jason's.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He might have had Jason's origin, but he had Tim's personality moreso than Jason's.


He also met Jason's fate that ended his career as Robin just with a twist.

----------


## Aioros22

> He might have had Jason's origin, but he had Tim's personality moreso than Jason's.


He really didn`t. He had some characteristics of Tim but the ones used weren`t unique enough. Being a nerd and okgood with computers was something Post Crisis Jason already was. Timm never hid the fact they wanted to use Jason but WB wanted them to play catch up with the Robin being published. He mentions this in his Modern Masters volume. Hence the name.

Tim is sort of there but not in any substantial way. This may come off as offensive to say in his own Thread but it`s what it is. The comic versions of the show only cemented it further.

----------


## shadowsgirl

So it seems like Tynion will be off the title in May. What do you think? What will happen to Tim? He lost his solo series 7 years ago. Is there a chance he can finally get a new one?

----------


## KrustyKid

> So it seems like Tynion will be off the title in May. What do you think? What will happen to Tim? He lost his solo series 7 years ago. Is there a chance he can finally get a new one?


Extremely doubtful. He'll in all likelihood be in another team book.

----------


## millernumber1

> Extremely doubtful. He'll in all likelihood be in another team book.


I desperately hope that someone will launch of Gotham Knights book starring Tim, Steph, and Cass.

----------


## Assam

> I desperately hope that someone will launch of Gotham Knights book starring Tim, Steph, and Cass.


The Bensons did say they have a new project coming this Summer...god wouldn't that just be a Monkey's Paw?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Extremely doubtful. He'll in all likelihood be in another team book.


Why? Tim is a proven seller. How is it possible that some worthless character can get a title, but not Tim? He was holding his own series for 18 years and he has a lot of fans. They cancelled his solo because of the reboot, nothing else.

----------


## godisawesome

> Why? Tim is a proven seller. How is it possible that some worthless character can get a title, but not Tim? He was holding his own series for 18 years and he has a lot of fans. They cancelled his solo because of the reboot, nothing else.


I believe the general thought is that DC launches books based more off of marketing logic than proven track records, and that a Red Robin solo would be seen as redundant while Nightwing exists, and a Robin book starring Tim would "confuse those stupid new readers that have to be babied" as long as Damian has the position. I think it would probably work out and be accepted if you gave it a good creative team, but I'm not the marketing brains that looked at the New 52 and believed that it was automatically better than what came before because it seemed simpler, and those guys are still at DC.

I'd still kill for some known creator to get on a team book with Tim, Cass, and Steph. Just give me a FabNic, Bryan Q. Miller, Joe Kelly or anyone who we know could do that well. I haven't read the Bensons's work, but I presume it's not excelling if it's not lighting up the boards around here.

----------


## millernumber1

> The Bensons did say they have a new project coming this Summer...god wouldn't that just be a Monkey's Paw?


I mean, I like the Bensons more than most people (read: everyone), but yeah. I wouldn't be super thrilled about that.




> I believe the general thought is that DC launches books based more off of marketing logic than proven track records, and that a Red Robin solo would be seen as redundant while Nightwing exists, and a Robin book starring Tim would "confuse those stupid new readers that have to be babied" as long as Damian has the position. I think it would probably work out and be accepted if you gave it a good creative team, but I'm not the marketing brains that looked at the New 52 and believed that it was automatically better than what came before because it seemed simpler, and those guys are still at DC.
> 
> I'd still kill for some known creator to get on a team book with Tim, Cass, and Steph. Just give me a FabNic, Bryan Q. Miller, Joe Kelly or anyone who we know could do that well. I haven't read the Bensons's work, but I presume it's not excelling if it's not lighting up the boards around here.


BQM: TV. Money's definitely not good enough to bring him back.

Joe Kelly - dunno.

Bensons - they're basically writing the kind of stuff that is great for Super Hero Girls. Not for 20-30 year olds who remember Gail Simone's first run or Dixon's run.

FabNic - I know ALL Tim fans love him, but I think his Tim is exactly like the Bat-Tim Tynion is trying to edge Tim away from, and I loathe his Steph. His Cass is pretty good, though.

Chris Yost or Christos Gage, though.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Yost will always be the GOAT post Dixon Tim writer for me. 

Initial issues were a little rocky getting through some of the ANGGGSSTTT, but the arc where he wins against Ra's by getting kicked out of a skyscraper is one of my favorite Tim stories.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yost will always be the GOAT post Dixon Tim writer for me. 
> 
> Initial issues were a little rocky getting through some of the ANGGGSSTTT, but the arc where he wins against Ra's by getting kicked out of a skyscraper is one of my favorite Tim stories.


Completely agree. That was some good chessmaster stuff.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Why? Tim is a proven seller. How is it possible that some worthless character can get a title, but not Tim? He was holding his own series for 18 years and he has a lot of fans. They cancelled his solo because of the reboot, nothing else.


Less to do with Tim, and more to do with the scope of things happening at DC right now.

----------


## millernumber1

> Less to do with Tim, and more to do with the scope of things happening at DC right now.


I think the real problem is DC's editorial hangups and Tynion being the only one who loves him in the writing staff.

----------


## Barbatos666

I think they should follow up on that Outsiders thread from the Morrrison run.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think they should follow up on that Outsiders thread from the Morrrison run.


Agreed, Tim actually makes sense leading the outsiders if its going to be a Bat team.

----------


## KrustyKid

I could get behind that

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## The Dying Detective

> 


Is this for real?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Is this for real?


Yes, it is.

https://www.facebook.com/kotobukiya/...type=3&theater

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes, it is.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/kotobukiya/...type=3&theater


So they still remember his years in that suit even though the cowl was frowned upon.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> So they still remember his years in that suit even though the cowl was frowned upon.


Love that suit, loved the cowl. 

It let him be a bit more serious, while also having funny pivots (like when Steph beats the shit out of that LoA girl) with the expressive eyes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Love that suit, loved the cowl. 
> 
> It let him be a bit more serious, while also having funny pivots (like when Steph beats the shit out of that LoA girl) with the expressive eyes.


Nah he looked too much like Doctor Mid-Nite I'd picked the domino mask.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Nah he looked too much like Doctor Mid-Nite I'd picked the domino mask.


Robin, Nightwing, Green Arrow, and a solid number of other heroes wear domino masks. At least with Tim having the cowl, it was far less common, even if he resembled Dr. Mid-Nite a bit.

----------


## Dataweaver

And that's why my preference would have been the even more rare half-cowl, like what Wally West wears.

----------


## KrustyKid

> And that's why my preference would have been the even more rare half-cowl, like what Wally West wears.


I could get behind something like that, perhaps it could be bird themed. Or even something like we saw Tim wear in the 'Batman Unlimited' movies.

----------


## godisawesome

Since I'm always a fan of the cowled look, and since we've gone through these debates a bit before on this thread, I decided to maybe see if we could actually do a sort of mini-contest betwoxt ourselves for a redesign of Tim's headgear.

I decided to use a clip from the Batman Unlimited to trace over. Here's two designs based off my support for the full cowl but liking the exposed bit of hair from Unlimited:
image.jpgimage.jpg

And here's a *very* rough one with the half cowl. Apologies for its ugliness on behalf of my artistic skill.
image.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> Since I'm always a fan of the cowled look, and since we've gone through these debates a bit before on this thread, I decided to maybe see if we could actually do a sort of mini-contest betwoxt ourselves for a redesign of Tim's headgear.
> 
> I decided to use a clip from the Batman Unlimited to trace over. Here's two designs based off my support for the full cowl but liking the exposed bit of hair from Unlimited:
> image.jpgimage.jpg
> 
> And here's a *very* rough one with the half cowl. Apologies for its ugliness on behalf of my artistic skill.
> image.jpg


I like it. The red around the eyes would be an accepted addition.

----------


## Caivu

Dustin Nguyen's cover for the collected edition of Li'l Gotham:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

Tim is at the back of the car next to Barbara.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I prefer the domino mask, the cowl is too Dr-Midnight alike and also Batman missing ears. I don't like half-cowl on Wally too.

----------


## godisawesome

And I still think the domino can only work if Tim's either still *just* "Robin" or if his graduation to something other than Red Robin changes his color scheme, like Nightwing did with his blue look.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> And I still think the domino can only work if Tim's either still *just* "Robin" or if his graduation to something other than Red Robin changes his color scheme, like Nightwing did with his blue look.


Pretty much this for me.

----------


## OBrianTallent

I liked the original Red Robin suit, but hated the cowl on it, I would much prefer just the domino mask for him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I prefer the domino mask, the cowl is too Dr-Midnight alike and also Batman missing ears. I don't like half-cowl on Wally too.


How do you feel about the cowl Tim wore in the Batman Unlimited series?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> How do you feel about the cowl Tim wore in the Batman Unlimited series?


It seems to be a viable option that makes him look less like Doctor Mid-Nite.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Caivu

Screenshot_20180224-001116.jpg

Band-Aids and hydrogen peroxide, part of every balanced meal.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Band-Aids and hydrogen peroxide, part of every balanced meal.


You should never question the eating habits of the Bat Family. They are weirdos. Especially Batman.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

This is the best.  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

I know this issue is beloved by Tim fans, but I really think it's an example of why Tim's "fake Batman with prep-time" isn't better than Tim Super Hacker. Because that kind of poison is just as ridiculous as hacking a gun. The one thing it does that makes the reader feel like Tim has accomplished more is it requires Tim to do something a day in advance.

----------


## Frontier

> I know this issue is beloved by Tim fans, but I really think it's an example of why Tim's "fake Batman with prep-time" isn't better than Tim Super Hacker. Because that kind of poison is just as ridiculous as hacking a gun. The one thing it does that makes the reader feel like Tim has accomplished more is it requires Tim to do something a day in advance.


I dunno, it just seems more impressive and satisfying to me then all the times we've seen Tim do super-hacking in the past few years, and seems natural.

Though I also find that poison less ridiculous then the hacking of a gun, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that front  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I really love that costume. Trunks just works for me tbh. Makes a costume look better.

----------


## millernumber1

> I dunno, it just seems more impressive and satisfying to me then all the times we've seen Tim do super-hacking in the past few years, and seems natural.
> 
> Though I also find that poison less ridiculous then the hacking of a gun, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that front .


I mean, it's fair if you have different levels of tolerance, but when I googled the poison, I didn't find anything similar, so it really felt like exactly the same kind of arbitrary plot device.

(I know, I know, I'm like the only person who dislikes FabNic on Tim.)

----------


## Frontier

> I mean, it's fair if you have different levels of tolerance, but when I googled the poison, I didn't find anything similar, so it really felt like exactly the same kind of arbitrary plot device.


Well, I'd usually just chalk that up to comic books  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> (I know, I know, I'm like the only person who dislikes FabNic on Tim.)


For respectable reasons. We all like/dislike what we like/dislike  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I'd usually just chalk that up to comic books .
> 
> For respectable reasons. We all like/dislike what we like/dislike .


Of course! And at least all of us here in the thread love Tim!  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> It seems to be a viable option that makes him look less like Doctor Mid-Nite.


That's pretty much how I feel about it

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I mean, it's fair if you have different levels of tolerance, but when I googled the poison, I didn't find anything similar, so it really felt like exactly the same kind of arbitrary plot device.
> 
> (I know, I know, I'm like the only person who dislikes FabNic on Tim.)


You aren't. 

It gets bonus points for being right after Yost's run and being the last run before the abomination that was N52, but I agree that FabNic drifted too far into prepgod territory. 

He absolutely nailed Tim/Damian though, gotta give him props for that.

----------


## millernumber1

> You aren't. 
> 
> It gets bonus points for being right after Yost's run and being the last run before the abomination that was N52, but I agree that FabNic drifted too far into prepgod territory. 
> 
> He absolutely nailed Tim/Damian though, gotta give him props for that.


Whew! Most people really seem to love FabNic on Red Robin because Tim gets to accomplish solid feats - which I am in favor of - but the feats are a bit too slapdash in construction. But I'm glad I'm not alone in finding his stuff much less satisfying.

There are a lot of fun character relationships he got right, I think - I do like the scene where Bruce hugs Tim after he comes back - that was solid. And I thought he did a solid Cass in the penultimate issue (#25). So there were definitely lots of solid things about his half of Red Robin - but too much arbitrary plot construction, and too much "All the bad girls want Tim" fanficcyness.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Whew! Most people really seem to love FabNic on Red Robin because Tim gets to accomplish solid feats - which I am in favor of - but the feats are a bit too slapdash in construction. But I'm glad I'm not alone in finding his stuff much less satisfying.
> 
> There are a lot of fun character relationships he got right, I think - I do like the scene where Bruce hugs Tim after he comes back - that was solid. And I thought he did a solid Cass in the penultimate issue (#25). So there were definitely lots of solid things about his half of Red Robin - but too much arbitrary plot construction, and *too much "All the bad girls want Tim" fanficcyness.*


He was trying to pay respect to the whole "girls like him but he's comically awkward" bit, which I appreciated, but I agree the execution wasn't stellar. Which is really the entirety of FabNic's run, aside from the character dynamics. Solid intent, less solid execution.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> There are a lot of fun character relationships he got right, I think - I do like the scene where Bruce hugs Tim after he comes back - that was solid. And I thought he did a solid Cass in the penultimate issue (#25). So there were definitely lots of solid things about his half of Red Robin - but too much arbitrary plot construction, and too much "All the bad girls want Tim" fanficcyness.


The only character that had the 'bad girls want Tim' thing was Lynx III wasn't it? And that one did have some level of build up though now that you mention it was it in line with how the New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman relationship was built? All flash no substance? If you are referring to Ra's al Ghul's sister that doesn't mean a thing since it was essentially rape and those things don't mean anything in terms of love.

----------


## godisawesome

I think the Daughter if Acheron trying to rape Tim is probably the nadir of the "the ladies love Red Robin" aspect of the book, since while he didn't have to beat her off with a stick, he had to call someone in to do it for him.

I like Lynx III in opart because I'm enamored with the idea of Tim's variation on the Catwoman-archetype being someone with an ambiguous backstory as an undercover cop; that's got just the right amount of mystery and complications to make it feel like it fits Tim perfectly.

----------


## millernumber1

> The only character that had the 'bad girls want Tim' thing was Lynx III wasn't it? And that one did have some level of build up though now that you mention it was it in line with how the New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman relationship was built? All flash no substance? If you are referring to Ra's al Ghul's sister that doesn't mean a thing since it was essentially rape and those things don't mean anything in terms of love.


It still felt way too much like a dude writing a teen boy fantasty rather than solid storytelling and character development.




> I think the Daughter if Acheron trying to rape Tim is probably the nadir of the "the ladies love Red Robin" aspect of the book, since while he didn't have to beat her off with a stick, he had to call someone in to do it for him.
> 
> I like Lynx III in opart because I'm enamored with the idea of Tim's variation on the Catwoman-archetype being someone with an ambiguous backstory as an undercover cop; that's got just the right amount of mystery and complications to make it feel like it fits Tim perfectly.


I like the idea of a Catwoman analogue, but I'm not a fan of the way it continues to push Tim towards dark preptime god. (Plus, as a TimSteph shipper, I'm always not super happy with non-Steph love interests.  :Wink:  ).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It still felt way too much like a dude writing a teen boy fantasy rather than solid storytelling and character development.


Well I certainly did not see it that way considering the only bad girl who actually liked Tim was Lynx III.




> I like the idea of a Catwoman analogue, but I'm not a fan of the way it continues to push Tim towards dark preptime god. (Plus, as a TimSteph shipper, I'm always not super happy with non-Steph love interests.  ).


I was sort of rooting for Lynx III or Tamara Fox as I read Red Robin but nonetheless i was baffled by how Stephanie still did not want Tim back even thought there was a great deal of proof that she wanted him back. It certainly would have saved a lot of trouble as she was chasing after that policeman who into Barbara Gordon. And I'm sure if the writer thought things more thoroughly Lynx III would not be one fo the signs that Tim was becoming a 'prep time god' as you put.

----------


## KrustyKid

I wonder where that would have ended up going, with Lynx being undercover and all.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I wonder where that would have ended up going, with Lynx being undercover and all.


It could go two ways with her really was an undercover teen operative she could have to choose between serving her higher ups interests or Tim. Or she could be playing Tim and he finds out all their good will is gone.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It could go two ways with her really was an undercover teen operative she could have to choose between serving her higher ups interests or Tim. Or she could be playing Tim and he finds out all their good will is gone.


Either way it would have been interesting none the less.

----------


## godisawesome

> It could go two ways with her really was an undercover teen operative she could have to choose between serving her higher ups interests or Tim. Or she could be playing Tim and he finds out all their good will is gone.


Back on DC's own boards, when FabNic actually ran a thread where you could ask him questions, I got a little over giddy and presumed that Lynx being the cop was arguably no better for Tim since she would be given a submission fo uncovering who he is, and that she was poking her finger under his mask during their first kiss to try and unmask him.

I got told no. :Stick Out Tongue: 

Personally, I kind of hope that of she ever shows up again, they go for the most ambiguous status they can for her, like Tim finds out she was a Hong Kong recruit gone deep under cover, but that there's rumors of her going native, but then there's evidence that the rumor is part of a *deeper* cover op, but then she may be a double agent for her gangland employers, but _then_ it turns out HKPD wants her to take over the Golden Dragons so they can control them, but _then_ her handler and mentor is killed in a suspicious manner, and ad Infinatum.

Just make her the perfect riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a skintight cat-themed outfit taut drives Tim crazy with the possibilities and implications.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Back on DC's own boards, when FabNic actually ran a thread where you could ask him questions, I got a little over giddy and presumed that Lynx being the cop was arguably no better for Tim since she would be given a submission fo uncovering who he is, and that she was poking her finger under his mask during their first kiss to try and unmask him.
> 
> I got told no.
> 
> Personally, I kind of hope that of she ever shows up again, they go for the most ambiguous status they can for her, like Tim finds out she was a Hong Kong recruit gone deep under cover, but that there's rumors of her going native, but then there's evidence that the rumor is part of a *deeper* cover op, but then she may be a double agent for her gangland employers, but _then_ it turns out HKPD wants her to take over the Golden Dragons so they can control them, but _then_ her handler and mentor is killed in a suspicious manner, and ad Infinatum.
> 
> Just make her the perfect riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a skintight cat-themed outfit taut drives Tim crazy with the possibilities and implications.


They said no to what exactly? For Lynx III to show up again would require for there to be some focus on Tim preferably in a solo comic ah the dream. Still your description has a great deal of merit and I would kill for DC to make that story happen I just might try to make it happen in my own DC Universe that I'm making.

----------


## godisawesome

To the idea she was removing his mask to see who he was. I was jumping on that train of thought probably a bit too much.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> To the idea she was removing his mask to see who he was. I was jumping on that train of thought probably a bit too much.


I didn't even see the moment they kissed a sign that Lynx III was trying to remove Tim's mask discreetly. It still makes you think about what could have been if Red Robin remained around. It would have been something interesting. Especially when based on the writers confirmation she has no malice towards Tim

----------


## shadowsgirl

This brings back good memories.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Rac7d*

> 


whats weird is that dick is the same age and now tim is what 18 instead of 14 like in that picture

----------


## Aahz

> whats weird is that dick is the same age and now Tim is what 18 instead of 14 like in that picture


Tim is still just 16 for some reason in current comics (and he might have been allready 15 at the time).

Dick is iirc still just 21 in current comics, and was iirc at least 23 back than.

Btw. the realtive ages of Dick and Jason are much weirder, orginally Dick was roughly 7 years older than Jason (who wasn't that much older than Tim btw.) now they are written like they were the same age. At it is actually similar with Dick and Barbara ,and Jason and Barbara.

----------


## CPSparkles

> This brings back good memories.


You know instead of nostalgic emptiness like this Tynion could have used Dick a bit more actually given us some Dick and Tim moments. What guarantee do we have this opening is going to be followed up on now Tynion is leaving?

----------


## Rac7d*

> You know instead of nostalgic emptiness like this Tynion could have used Dick a bit more actually given us some Dick and Tim moments. What guarantee do we have this opening is going to be followed up on now Tynion is leaving?


none,  I thought all their history was erased, some how under the red hood and battle for the cowl still happened and tim says he feels closet to Jason,

----------


## KrustyKid

Nice seeing Tim and Damian not at each others throats this issue.

----------


## Assam

> Nice seeing Tim and Damian not at each others throats this issue.


Much as I personally didn't care for the issue as a whole, that whole scene with Tim, Cass and Damian is the kind of canon sibling interaction we deserve.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Much as I personally didn't care for the issue as a whole, that whole scene with Tim, Cass and Damian is the kind of canon sibling interaction we deserve.


Hopefully we get more of it

----------


## KrustyKid

Bat dudes,

tumblr_p2945vJef21vnmxrwo1_1280.jpg

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Attachment 44731
> 
> Always enjoyed the Tam and Tim interactions


Nice picture Tam looks like she's Tim's wife. I wonder whether Fabian Nicieza had plans to reunite them before Flashpoint hit? Aah now I want to see a possible ffuture involving them married.

----------


## The Whovian

> 


Ah, good times

----------


## KrustyKid

> Nice picture Tam looks like she's Tim's wife. I wonder whether Fabian Nicieza had plans to reunite them before Flashpoint hit? Aah now I want to see a possible ffuture involving them married.


Yah, I loved the back and forth between Tim and Tam.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yah, I loved the back and forth between Tim and Tam.


If only their relationship lasted a little longer because at that point Tim was going through his own Nightwing phase and it would be hilarious if Tim had love interests that are renowned as Oracle, Starfire, and Huntress were for Nightwing. Although in Tim's case it would have been Spoiler, Lynx II, and Tamara Fox.

----------


## KrustyKid

> If only their relationship lasted a little longer because at that point Tim was going through his own Nightwing phase and it would be hilarious if Tim had love interests that are renowned as Oracle, Starfire, and Huntress were for Nightwing. Although in Tim's case it would have been Spoiler, Lynx II, and Tamara Fox.


Hmmph, I never thought of it like that. Who did you favor of the three?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Hmmph, I never thought of it like that. Who did you favor of the three?


I mainly favoured Lynx II and Tamara though I acknowledge Spoiler as Tim's end game romance. But if I were to choose between Lynx II and Tamara I'd pick Tamara. If Tim is Peter Parker Tamara would be his Mary Jane. Though the other romance Tim had that has become renowned is the one he had with Cassie Sandsmark but it's mostly for all the wrong reasons. But who did you favour?

----------


## KrustyKid

> I mainly favoured Lynx II and Tamara though I acknowledge Spoiler as Tim's end game romance. But if I were to choose between Lynx II and Tamara I'd pick Tamara. If Tim is Peter Parker Tamara would be his Mary Jane. Though the other romance Tim had that has become renowned is the one he had with Cassie Sandsmark but it's mostly for all the wrong reasons. But who did you favour?


My all time favorite for Tim would be Steph. But for that particular period, I'd say Tim/Tam had the most potential. While Tam was a civilian, she was one who was aware of Tim's night life and also helped in assisting him on his adventures. It was a lot different than any of Tim's prior romantic interests. Too bad we never got to see where it could have gone.

----------


## Assam

Current ranking of Tim's love interests (JUST as love interests): Ariana> Tam>>>>>>>Steph>>>Lynx II>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cassie

----------


## KrustyKid

> Current ranking of Tim's love interests (JUST as love interests): Ariana> Tam>>>>>>>Steph>>>Lynx II>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cassie


You mean Pre-52 right? Because some of those characters don't currently exist.

----------


## Assam

> You mean Pre-52 right? Because some of those characters don't currently exist.


Yeah. By current I just meant how I feel at present time. Ariana and Tam were great characters who had excellent chemistry with Tim, I love Steph obviously but I do not like her and Tim together, Lynx II is just bleh for me and I didn't care for how FabNic used her and while Cassie is far and away my favorite character out of all the ones mentioned here (that includes Timmy), their romance (both Pre and Post-Nu52) was just awful.

----------


## Frontier

I enjoy all of Tim's romances  :Smile: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah. By current I just meant how I feel at present time. Ariana and Tam were great characters who had excellent chemistry with Tim, I love Steph obviously but I do not like her and Tim together, Lynx II is just bleh for me and I didn't care for how FabNic used her and while Cassie is far and away my favorite character out of all the ones mentioned here (that includes Timmy), their romance (both Pre and Post-Nu52) was just awful.


Always preferred Cassie with Kon.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My all time favorite for Tim would be Steph. But for that particular period, I'd say Tim/Tam had the most potential. While Tam was a civilian, she was one who was aware of Tim's night life and also helped in assisting him on his adventures. It was a lot different than any of Tim's prior romantic interests. Too bad we never got to see where it could have gone.


Yeah I may not like Stephanie as Tim's love interest but like I said she is pretty much his endgame romance. Tim and Tam sure had unbelievable potential compared to most hero and civilian romances because more than half the time they always end badly because of the issues of secrecy. Which was how Tim and Tam's romance fell apart if only Tim would try to set himself apart from Bruce whose romances always fail because of a combination of secrecy and bad events. Tim didn't have to be so Batman-lite that he hid the truth of Lucius Fox's death from Tam who would have been helpful in keeping Tim grounded as well.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah I may not like Stephanie as Tim's love interest but like I said she is pretty much his endgame romance. Tim and Tam sure had unbelievable potential compared to most hero and civilian romances because more than half the time they always end badly because of the issues of secrecy. Which was how Tim and Tam's romance fell apart if only Tim would try to set himself apart from Bruce whose romances always fail because of a combination of secrecy and bad events. Tim didn't have to be so Batman-lite that he hid the truth of Lucius Fox's death from Tam who would have been helpful in keeping Tim grounded as well.


All great points, which is why I enjoyed the combination.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> All great points, which is why I enjoyed the combination.


I mean Tim had no reason to continue to hide Lucius Fox's death from Tam I enjoyed some parts of the new writer's work but becoming too Batman was a huge misstep. Especially when Tim already knows how bad keeping secrets can be from the Tower of Babel disaster. I also wondered what would happen if Tam were to have taken a more proactive part in Tim's hero life and maybe become his Oracle.

----------


## Assam

> Always preferred Cassie with Kon.


I loved the build up of the relationship throughout Young Justice, but Johns's TT completely trashed all the relationship's potential. I maintain his transformation of Cassie from the kick-ass leader of Young Justice to nothing but 'Conner's' naggy girlfriend is how she went from being able to beat Tim and Kon in a popularity poll to having her 6 issue mini bottom out at 15K within 5 years. I'm not completely against the relationship but 1) They'd both need to written in character and 2) It isn't my favorite ship for either of them either.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I mean Tim had no reason to continue to hide Lucius Fox's death from Tam I enjoyed some parts of the new writer's work but becoming too Batman was a huge misstep. Especially when Tim already knows how bad keeping secrets can be from the Tower of Babel disaster. *I also wondered what would happen if Tam were to have taken a more proactive part in Tim's hero life and maybe become his Oracle*.


I felt like something like that could have happened down the road. It definitely would have been something different for Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I loved the build up of the relationship throughout Young Justice, but Johns's TT completely trashed all the relationship's potential. I maintain his transformation of Cassie from the kick-ass leader of Young Justice to nothing but 'Conner's' naggy girlfriend is how she went from being able to beat Tim and Kon in a popularity poll to having her 6 issue mini bottom out at 15K within 5 years. I'm not completely against the relationship but 1) They'd both need to written in character and 2) It isn't my favorite ship for either of them either.


Yah, a few things fell off the mountain with TT, lol. Curious, if not Cassie, who do you feel balances out with Kon best?

----------


## Assam

> who do you feel balances out with Kon best?


Tana Moon is #1 *spoilers:*
 (her death will always be BS) 
*end of spoilers* but I also think there could have been potential for the Kon/Cass romance had they been allowed to develop it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I felt like something like that could have happened down the road. It definitely would have been something different for Tim.


And if it did I hope their relationship turns out better than Barbara's and Dick's heck she did something like that in Russia. I also could not help but flirt with the idea of Tam becoming Batwing but that's not in her character.

----------


## The Whovian

> I enjoy all of Tim's romances .


I do too, but I prefer Steph

----------


## millernumber1

> I do too, but I prefer Steph


Same! Best ship!  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah. By current I just meant how I feel at present time. Ariana and Tam were great characters who had excellent chemistry with Tim, I love Steph obviously but I do not like her and Tim together, Lynx II is just bleh for me and I didn't care for how FabNic used her and while Cassie is far and away my favorite character out of all the ones mentioned here (that includes Timmy), their romance (both Pre and Post-Nu52) was just awful.


Yeah pretty much this, I was mainly hoping TimTam would pan out, but alas, and Lynx II, plus everything that relationship was to represent was so cringe.

Also whilst I REALLY liked TimSteph as Robin and Spoiler, they kinda grew apart for me as they transitioned to RR and BG, I don't know, the more innocent chemistry between them seemed to transform into almost bitter resentment and clashes as their characters developed, and Tims more growing cynical and judgmental outlook in RR didn't help alleviate that.

Oh and in Cassie and Tims case, as is with the case of Dick and Donna, these two should definitely be a JUST friends wonderbat duo. I think I read a post somewhere once that perfectly described the chemistry or lack thereof between these two, that went along the lines of. (This is not my opinion of their sexuality per say, more the vibe they give off.) 
_They feel like two closeted gay kids that are pretending to date each other in the hopes of getting other people off their back and fitting in._ And yeah that pretty much sums up how awkward that relationship always felt to me.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tana Moon is #1 *spoilers:*
>  (her death will always be BS) 
> *end of spoilers* but I also think there could have been potential for the Kon/Cass romance had they been allowed to develop it.


Cass and Kon could have been interesting. I enjoyed the little we got between the two.

----------


## Assam

> Oh and in Cassie and Tims case, as is with the case of Dick and Donna, these two should definitely be a JUST friends wonderbat duo.


The only good WonderBat  romance is Chinese WonderBat...also potentially CassCass, but that's just because I'd take almost anything that got them to interact for once. 




> I think I read a post somewhere once that perfectly described the chemistry or lack thereof between these two, that went along the lines of. (This is not my opinion of their sexuality per say, more the vibe they give off.) 
> _They feel like two closeted gay kids that are pretending to date each other in the hopes of getting other people off their back and fitting in._ And yeah that pretty much sums up how awkward that relationship always felt to me.


Yeah, I can kinda see it. 




> Cass and Kon could have been interesting. I enjoyed the little we got between the two.


I actually read recently that Horrocks wanted to do more with the two, but editorial put the kibosh on that, telling him they wanted Kon with Cassie.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah pretty much this, I was mainly hoping TimTam would pan out, but alas, and Lynx II, plus everything that relationship was to represent was so cringe.
> 
> Also whilst I REALLY liked TimSteph as Robin and Spoiler, they kinda grew apart for me as they transitioned to RR and BG, I don't know, the more innocent chemistry between them seemed to transform into almost bitter resentment and clashes as their characters developed, and Tims more growing cynical and judgmental outlook in RR didn't help alleviate that.
> 
> Oh and in Cassie and Tims case, as is with the case of Dick and Donna, these two should definitely be a JUST friends wonderbat duo. I think I read a post somewhere once that perfectly described the chemistry or lack thereof between these two, that went along the lines of. (This is not my opinion of their sexuality per say, more the vibe they give off.) 
> _They feel like two closeted gay kids that are pretending to date each other in the hopes of getting other people off their back and fitting in._ And yeah that pretty much sums up how awkward that relationship always felt to me.


It sure would have been worth it to see Tim and Tam develop into something more substantial than a will they or not relationship I even envisioned Tam as either Tim's Oracle or as the new Batwing. Yet when Tim and Stephanie worked to save Leslie Thompkins it was evident that they wanted each other back and I was baffled that Stephanie refused him because I knew that it was going to build to some messy circumstances. So it was better if they got back together to avoid them. Too bad Tim and Cassie's poor relationship is a little more well-known thanks to the ending of Young Justice.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm definitely in the boat that thinks Tim is in need of a new code name. How do you guys feel about current Tim going by 'Saivor' like we saw with future Drake? 

Sa.jpg

He could have a look similar to the one he had, just a lot more simplified and less X-Men 90's.

----------


## godisawesome

I think the Savior codename should be off the table unless we're teasing a complete acceptance of that dark future fro the character. Honestly, the costume weirdly reminds me of that Superboy book where Kon out on a gauntlet that releases your darkside and his suit started to transform into that of Black Zero. I like how it references some of his other costumes, but I think a high collared jacket is more Damian's thing.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think the Savior codename should be off the table unless we're teasing a complete acceptance of that dark future fro the character. Honestly, the costume weirdly reminds me of that Superboy book where Kon out on a gauntlet that releases your darkside and his suit started to transform into that of Black Zero. I like how it references some of his other costumes, but I think a high collared jacket is more Damian's thing.


'Savior' doesn't particularly take me as something that has to be linked directly to dark future Tim. After all before Tim picked up with the Red Robin name pre-52, the General who wasn't exactly your model citizen was repping the suit. Right now it just feels like Tim is just 'another Robin', in form as well as his suit. At least if he bounced over to Savior it would be something different. I liked the Red Robin name pre-52, but its weight has really fallen off after the reboot.

----------


## KrustyKid

More Robin samurai action,

tumblr_p4svr50UV51u3xbigo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Dataweaver

> 'Savior' doesn't particularly take me as something that has to be linked directly to dark future Tim. After all before Tim picked up with the Red Robin name pre-52, the General who wasn't exactly your model citizen was repping the suit. Right now it just feels like Tim is just 'another Robin', in form as well as his suit. At least if he bounced over to Savior it would be something different. I liked the Red Robin name pre-52, but its weight has really fallen off after the reboot.


Right now, Tim feels like just another Robin because that's essentially what he _is_: he dresses like Robin and works in partnership with Batman like Robin. And yes, Red Robin is very nearly the same as Robin as a codename. That said, he doesn't need to ditch the Red Robin identity to reclaim his independence: just change his costume to be something more like this: 
tumblr_ogrgwq94UN1t58g0so2_400.jpg
And get him back into a solo title where he's the focus of the stories. 

As for Savior: the problem with it as a codename for Tim is its innate arrogance. What Tim needs to get away from the most right now is this attitude that he can be everyone's savior if he just tries hard enough (e.g., manipulates the right pawns and initiates the right schemes). I'm fine with him taking on a different codename; but not Savior.

----------


## millernumber1

> Right now, Tim feels like “just another Robin” because that's essentially what he _is_: he dresses like Robin and works in partnership with Batman like Robin. And yes, “Red Robin” is very nearly the same as “Robin” as a codename. That said, he doesn't need to ditch the Red Robin identity to reclaim his independence: just change his costume to be something more like this: 
> tumblr_ogrgwq94UN1t58g0so2_400.jpg
> And get him back into a solo title where he's the focus of the stories. 
> 
> As for “Savior”: the problem with it as a codename for Tim is its innate arrogance. What Tim needs to get away from the most right now is this attitude that he can be everyone's savior if he just tries hard enough (e.g., manipulates the right pawns and initiates the right schemes). I'm fine with him taking on a different codename; but not Savior.


But that looks like "Red Nightwing with a cape" more than an independent identity.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'm not sure that Tim needs a new identity so much as he needs better characterization and writer that can give him that along with engaging and interesting stories. Those are what I see as the main problems with the character right now and a change of identity isn't likely to help that.

----------


## Dataweaver

Oh, definitely. I do think a change in appearance would help, as his current look it a little _too_ “Robin, the Boy Wonder”; and for better or worse, Damian has made that role his own. But yeah; what's really needed are better stories for Tim.

----------


## Assam

The safe bet right now based off what we know is that Tim will be ending up in a Tynion, or possibly Williamson, penned YJ/YJesque book.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm not sure that Tim needs a new identity so much as he needs better characterization and writer that can give him that along with engaging and interesting stories. Those are what I see as the main problems with the character right now and a change of identity isn't likely to help that.


Well if he's going to keep the Red Robin name, for the love of me could they at least change the suit. He's flat out looking like just another 'Robin'. Design wise he shouldn't look so close to Damian, suit, color scheme, etc.

I agree with the rest of your points.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The safe bet right now based off what we know is that Tim will be ending up in a Tynion, or possibly Williamson, penned YJ/YJesque book.


If that actually happens I hope it's Williamson that writes it and not Tynion.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well if he's going to keep the Red Robin name, for the love of me could they at least change the suit. He's flat out looking like just another 'Robin'. Design wise he shouldn't look so close to Damian, suit, color scheme, etc.


Oh, I agree with giving him a new suit, I just think there are other, more important things that need fixing first. On its own a new suit isn't going to fix how badly DC blundered with Tim nor will it fix how badly he's been mishandled even recently. He was one of the characters I liked most before the N52 and I can't stand him now at all.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, I agree with giving him a new suit, I just think there are other, more important things that need fixing first. On its own a new suit isn't going to fix how badly DC blundered with Tim nor will it fix how badly he's been mishandled even recently. He was one of the characters I liked most before the N52 and I can't stand him now at all.


One just needs to actually give him focus his old background has been reinstated they just need the people he was close to back in his life.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> One just needs to actually give him focus his old background has been reinstated they just need the people he was close to back in his life.


A solo book is probably a better place for him to get that kind of focus and a good place for him to get some of his supporting cast back as well. It's more difficult to give any character lots of focus in a team setting without pushing all the other characters into the background to do it and even then you don't really get to go into to much depth with them because its a team book not a solo one. At this point I think Tim needs a solo title just to get back on his collective feet again after all the mishandling he's gotten in recent years.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A solo book is probably a better place for him to get that kind of focus and a good place for him to get some of his supporting cast back as well. It's more difficult to give any character lots of focus in a team setting without pushing all the other characters into the background to do it and even then you don't really get to go into to much depth with them because its a team book not a solo one. At this point I think Tim needs a solo title just to get back on his collective feet again after all the mishandling he's gotten in recent years.


Probably a lot of the Batfamily members are such strong character confining them to a supporting role tends to hinder their potential but DC wants to develop Tim again but not give him a solo title they will have cut out some characters to allow Tim to develop. My pick would be Kate Kane, Luke Fox, Jean-Paul, Duke Thomas, and Harper Row. And with only three not counting Alfred, James Gordon, and Batman himself there should be more room now.

----------


## CuteClops

I thought we would have seen the return of Conner Kent in Detective Comics. :/

Do you guys know if there's any news about it?

----------


## The Whovian

> I thought we would have seen the return of Conner Kent in Detective Comics. :/
> 
> Do you guys know if there's any news about it?


Unfortunately, there hasn't been any news  :Frown:

----------


## CuteClops

> Unfortunately, there hasn't been any news


Hey, are you a DC fan too?
With me, until 2015 was something like this:

Marvel titles - 10
DC titles - 6

and today is:

DC titles - 10 
Marvel titles - 2 

Now I'm waiting for the return of Conner Kent, also a title of JSA, Starman, Animal-Man, Booster Gold and Tim Drake.  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> Hey, are you a DC fan too?


Oh yeah. I'm a HUGE Bat family fan. My favorite DC characters are:
Batman
Tim Drake
Dick Grayson
Cassandra Cain
Damian Wayne
Batwoman
Jason Todd
Jack Knight
Catwoman
Kon-El
Connor Hawke
John Stewart
Lady Shiva
Mister Miracle
Big Barda
Jay Garrick
Wally West
Legion of Super-Heroes
JSA




> With me, until 2015 was something like this:
> 
> Marvel titles - 10
> DC titles - 6
> 
> and today is:
> 
> DC titles - 10 
> Marvel titles - 2 
> ...


Same here. I used to buy around 25-30 Marvel titles, but then they dropped the FF into limbo, killed off Jean, Cyclops, Madrox and others and I'm down to about 10 Marvel titles now. The X-Books are nothing like they used to be. I'm so ticked with a lot of what they've done in the past few years.

On the other hand, I'm buying a ton of DC titles. DC's New 52 and Rebirth has been great, and I've never bought more DC books than I have right now. I'm not even a Superman fan, but I love his two Rebirth books.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh yeah. I'm a HUGE Bat family fan. My favorite DC characters are:
> Batman
> Tim Drake
> Dick Grayson
> Cassandra Cain
> Damian Wayne
> Batwoman
> Jason Todd
> Jack Knight
> ...


Nice, didn't know you were a Lady Shiva fan as well.

----------


## The Whovian

> Nice, didn't know you were a Lady Shiva fan as well.


She's awesome. I've been reading her since Richard Dragon's first series. But she got even better when she was in the Bat books and finally Cassandra's book. She was cool too in BOP

----------


## CuteClops

> Oh yeah. I'm a HUGE Bat family fan. My favorite DC characters are:
> Batman
> Tim Drake
> Dick Grayson
> Cassandra Cain
> Damian Wayne
> Batwoman
> Jason Todd
> Jack Knight
> ...


Pretty cool, man. I also love the Bat family.
My favorites on DC:

Dick Grayson
Batman
Tim Drake
Jason Todd
Booster Gold
Wally West (the red one)
Kyle Rayner
Hal Jordan
Mister Miracle
Big Barda
Orion
Deathstroke
Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond and Martin Stein)
New Teen Titans/The Titans (pre New-52)
Teen Titans by Geoff Johns
Barry Allen
Ted Kord
Aquaman
Guy Gardner
John Stewart
Green Arrow and Black Canary
Arsenal
Wonder Woman
Cassandra Cain
Batwoman
Batgirl
Jack Knight
Buddy Baker
Vic Sage/Victor Szasz
Catwoman
Kon-El
LJA
JSA
Hawkman and Hawkgirl 
Plastic Man
Pieter Cross (Doctor Mid-Nite)

Yeah, man, I love them all.  :Smile: 


And yes, even though I'm not a big fan of the Big Blue Boy Scout, I love his two Rebirth books, and of course, Super Sons (Man, I love those kids). 
But I would be happier if Conner (and Cassie) comes back. I love the friendship between him and Tim.

Today, at Marvel, I only buy Daredevil and Moon Knight. X-titles I dropped it before Secret Wars, after Uncanny X-Men #600.

----------


## CuteClops

> Nice, didn't know you were a Lady Shiva fan as well.






> She's awesome. I've been reading her since Richard Dragon's first series. But she got even better when she was in the Bat books and finally Cassandra's book. She was cool too in BOP


I liked her in 'The Question' books.
Poor Vic, Lady Shiva has slaughtered him.  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> And yes, even though I'm not a big fan of the Big Blue Boy Scout, I love his two Rebirth books, and of course, Super Sons (Man, I love those kids).


Yeah, I like that book too. In a way, I wouldn't mind a Young Justice book with Damian, Jon, Maya, Emiko and some others.




> But I would be happier if Conner (and Cassie) comes back. I love the friendship between him and Tim.


Dude, yes! I love how Geoff Johns wrote them all in Teen Titans. That book was awesome! It's long past time for DC to bring back Tim's friends.




> Today, at Marvel, I only buy Daredevil and Moon Knight. X-titles I dropped it before Secret Wars, after Uncanny X-Men #600.


Yeah, the X-books just aren't the same anymore are they? It's sad. I don't get why they dump on the X-Men and FF. It's just crazy. Those were their money books. And the stupid Blue and Gold books are terrible. I keep up with some of the X-books just for my favorite characters. Astonishing started out great, but the last two issues haven't been that good.

----------


## The Whovian

> I liked her in 'The Question' books.


Yep, those old Question issues with her in them were really good. 




> Poor Vic, Lady Shiva has slaughtered him.


IMO, Shiva is THE premiere fighter in the DCU. The only one who has come close to beating her was Connor, but even he eventually got beat down in their fight. If not for Tim intervening, she would have killed Connor.

----------


## Assam

> IMO, Shiva is THE premiere fighter in the DCU. The only one who has come close to beating her was Connor, but even he eventually got beat down in their fight.


Coulda sworn you'd read Cass's book.

----------


## The Whovian

> Coulda sworn you'd read Cass's book.


I did. The old Cass was Shiva's equal. The current Cass doesn't look like the old Cass. At least, not yet.

----------


## Assam

> I did. The old Cass was Shiva's equal. The current Cass doesn't look like the old Cass. At least, not yet.


I was more referring to the part where you said Connor was the only one who came close to beating her when Cass did it two (technically three) times.

----------


## The Whovian

> I was more referring to the part where you said Connor was the only one who came close to beating her when Cass did it two (technically three) times.


True. I mentioned Connor because of that time I was referring to, but he is in limbo now and there's nothing to compare her to in regards to him. And while Pre-New 52 Cass was clearly Shiva's equal, she is not in limbo and the current Cass doesn't look like her old self. Like I said, at least not yet. I hope the writers would read her run from Pre-New 52 to understand just how great of a fighter she is. 

And they need to give her a better code name. I don't like "Orphan" at all. If they refuse to give her the Batgirl mantle, then call her Black Bat or something.

----------


## The Dying Detective

So in light of the new upcoming Deathstroke vs Batman story writer Christopher Priest claims that Jason was envious of Damian which essentially replaces Tim as the one who was envious over Damian being Bruce's son. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

----------


## Assam

> I mentioned Connor because of that time I was referring to, but he is in limbo now and there's nothing to compare her to in regards to him.


This wouldn't still be the case soon if Percy hadn't been pulled off GA.  :Mad: 




> And while Pre-New 52 Cass was clearly Shiva's equal, she is not in limbo and the current Cass doesn't look like her old self. Like I said, at least not yet.


Feats in 'Tec have been pretty inconsistent, but whatever. I personally see Cass as #1 in the present day DCU regardless of what continuity we're talking, but as I've said before, her being an amazing fighter is one of the _least_ important things to me about her character, 




> I hope the writers would read her run from Pre-New 52 to understand just how great of a fighter she is.


Her new main writer is a huge fan. I think Hill understands this _and_ all the other more important things about her. 




> And they need to give her a better code name. I don't like "Orphan" at all. If they refuse to give her the Batgirl mantle, then call her Black Bat or something.


We all know 'Orphan' sucks, we've said it a million times and at this point we just gotta hope that Tynion gives her _something_ on that end before he goes.

----------


## The Whovian

> This wouldn't still be the case soon if Percy hadn't been pulled off GA.


Yep. I hear you. Really ticked me off. Assam, I think we like the same things when it comes to this corner of the DCU.




> Feats in 'Tec have been pretty inconsistent, but whatever. I personally see Cass as #1 in the present day DCU regardless of what continuity we're talking, but as I've said before, her being an amazing fighter is one of the _least_ important things to me about her character,


Oh, I agree. I think there's even more in Cass that a good writer could pull out. That's why I would do cartwheels if DC gave her her own book again.




> Her new main writer is a huge fan. I think Hill understands this _and_ all the other more important things about her.


That's my hope




> We all know 'Orphan' sucks, we've said it a million times and at this point we just gotta hope that Tynion gives her _something_ on that end before he goes.


It would be nice, but I don't think it's going to happen though. I think Tynion has already checked out on this book.

----------


## The Whovian

> So in light of the new upcoming Deathstroke vs Batman story writer Christopher Priest claims that Jason was envious of Damian which essentially replaces Tim as the one who was envious over Damian being Bruce's son. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


I hate it when writers pit them against each other. It shows a lack of imagination and creativity.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I hate it when writers pit them against each other. It shows a lack of imagination and creativity.


He isn't, he was talking about a scene set during Morrison's run when Damian was first introduced.

----------


## Aahz

> So in light of the new upcoming Deathstroke vs Batman story writer Christopher Priest claims that Jason was envious of Damian which essentially replaces Tim as the one who was envious over Damian being Bruce's son. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


Writers not knowing their stuff is imo never a good thing.

----------


## TheCape

> So in light of the new upcoming Deathstroke vs Batman story writer Christopher Priest claims that Jason was envious of Damian which essentially replaces Tim as the one who was envious over Damian being Bruce's son. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


Pretty innacurate, Damian was probably the only Robin that Jason didn't outrigth dislike in the previous universe, althougth it was more that he find him amusing that anything else.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Pretty innacurate, Damian was probably the only Robin that Jason didn't outright dislike in the previous universe, althougth it was more that he find him amusing that anything else.





> Writers not knowing their stuff is imo never a good thing.


I wonder whether it has anything to do with after how badly Wally West I heart problems were received Priest didn't want to try anything rough with Tim because Tim is kind of  safe character in contrast to Jason. Still if anyone wishes to correct Priest there's always his website. I tried but my comment got taken down.

----------


## CPSparkles

> So in light of the new upcoming Deathstroke vs Batman story writer Christopher Priest claims that Jason was envious of Damian which essentially replaces Tim as the one who was envious over Damian being Bruce's son. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


I hope it's just a mistake.
According to Jason's writer Damian is his favourite Robin. He cares for him and reaches out to him despite Damian being a brat.
It would be a bad thing if he was written as envious.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I wonder whether it has anything to do with after how badly Wally West I heart problems were received Priest didn't want to try anything rough with Tim because Tim is kind of  safe character in contrast to Jason. Still if anyone wishes to correct Priest there's always his website. I tried but my comment got taken down.


Tim shot Bruce, tried to kill an innocent child and blew up Gotham police station in an effort to kill Damian [his adopted baby brother]
This stuff that was written this year about Tim and we're still in March.

He rode out the Wally West thing it would be foolish to try to avoid backlash by misrepresenting another character. Best to stay true to canon and correct characterisation then no one can fault you

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim shot Bruce, tried to kill an innocent child and blew up Gotham police station in an effort to kill Damian [his adopted baby brother]
> This stuff that was written this year about Tim and we're still in March.
> 
> He rode out the Wally West thing it would be foolish to try to avoid backlash by misrepresenting another character. Best to stay true to canon and correct characterisation then no one can fault you


All of that was future Evil/Tim, not the regular timeline one. Current Tim wouldn't do any of those things.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yep, those old Question issues with her in them were really good. 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, Shiva is THE premiere fighter in the DCU. The only one who has come close to beating her was Connor, but even he eventually got beat down in their fight. If not for Tim intervening, she would have killed Connor.


Coulda sworm you read Richard Dragon.

----------


## Assam

> Coulda sworm you read Richard Dragon.


You mocking me? :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

> All of that was future Evil/Tim, not the regular timeline one. Current Tim wouldn't do any of those things.


I know. My point is that Tim isn't safe from being portrayed as the bad guy. Even regular Tim isn't being shown in the best light so Priest doesn't need to misrepresent Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I hope it's just a mistake.
> According to Jason's writer Damian is his favourite Robin. He cares for him and reaches out to him despite Damian being a brat.
> It would be a bad thing if he was written as envious.


Christopher Priest is writing Deathstroke vs Batman not Scott Lobdell. And yes it would be a bad thing if Jason was written as envious if you want to correct Christopher Priest go to his website.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I know. My point is that Tim isn't safe from being portrayed as the bad guy. Even regular Tim isn't being shown in the best light so Priest doesn't need to misrepresent Jason.


With the amount of bad portrayals Tim went through under Scott Lobdell another bad one could damage him as well but they need to bring back the old stuff so yeah why not?

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #979 cover by Alvaro Martínez and Raül Fernandez, in which Tim becomes Gray Fox:

IMG_20180319_125852.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

> Christopher Priest is writing Deathstroke vs Batman not Scott Lobdell. And yes it would be a bad thing if Jason was written as envious if you want to correct Christopher Priest go to his website.


I am aware Priest is writing Deathstroke v Batman.
Winick said Damian was Jason's favourite Robin

----------


## CPSparkles

> Detective Comics #979 cover by Alvaro Martínez and Raül Fernandez, in which Tim becomes Gray Fox:
> 
> IMG_20180319_125852.jpg


Is that his new name?

----------


## Assam

> Is that his new name?


No it's a reference to Metal Gear.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I am aware Priest is writing Deathstroke v Batman.
> Winick said Damian was Jason's favourite Robin


Ah but who at either company respects their creators anyway?

----------


## Frontier

> Detective Comics #979 cover by Alvaro Martínez and Raül Fernandez, in which Tim becomes Gray Fox:
> 
> IMG_20180319_125852.jpg


If only  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Whovian

> Coulda sworm you read Richard Dragon.


Sure did. It's not canon. Even if it were, there's some question about whether or not he would actually have beaten Shiva. He was getting the best of her before her thugs interfered, but after that, she gained the upper hand and killed him.

----------


## The Whovian

> Detective Comics #979 cover by Alvaro Martínez and Raül Fernandez, in which Tim becomes Gray Fox:
> 
> IMG_20180319_125852.jpg


Are you sure? That looks more like him becoming Brother Eye to me.

----------


## Caivu

> Are you sure? That looks more like him becoming Brother Eye to me.


(It was a joke)

----------


## Assam

> (It was a joke)


Apparently I'm the only one here who's played Metal Gear. Weird. 

Also, no sign of Tim in the June solicits.

----------


## The Whovian

> (It was a joke)


Oh, sorry Caivu

----------


## The Whovian

> Apparently I'm the only one here who's played Metal Gear. Weird.


I don't play video games, so any references to them goes way over my head.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

He's more closer to Raiden anyway :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Are you sure? That looks more like him becoming Brother Eye to me.


I thought it looked like an OMAC, rather than Brother Eye proper.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> He's more closer to Raiden anyway.


He kick a lot of ass in Rising......

----------


## KrustyKid

> Detective Comics #979 cover by Alvaro Martínez and Raül Fernandez, in which Tim becomes Gray Fox:
> 
> Attachment 63498


Tim finna pull out his final form

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Apparently I'm the only one here who's played Metal Gear. Weird. 
> 
> Also, no sign of Tim in the June solicits.


Sadly, either Steph is nowhere.

Dick, Babs, Damian even Jason and Harley, everyone has his title in the Prelude to the Wedding but Tim.
I'm so unhappy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sadly, either Steph is nowhere.
> 
> Dick, Babs, Damian even Jason and Harley, everyone has his title in the Prelude to the Wedding but Tim.
> I'm so unhappy.


Admittedly Tim should be fighting Anarky it may not be Ulysses Armstrong who is Anarky right now but it's a nice call back to his old Red Robin days.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Admittedly Tim should be fighting Anarky it may not be Ulysses Armstrong who is Anarky right now but it's a nice call back to his old Red Robin days.


Yeah, when i've read Red Hood vs Anarky my heart stopped for a second.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, when i've read Red Hood vs Anarky my heart stopped for a second.


Well here's hoping that the solicit for Detective Comics do hint at th very least that Tim will be operating in some capacity maybe as a new member of the Outsiders.

----------


## Assam

> Dick, Babs, Damian even Jason and Harley, everyone has his title in the Prelude to the Wedding but Tim.
> I'm so unhappy.


Tim not getting one is actually the reason I'm _not_ mad. If it was just Cass and Steph being excluded for the umpteenth time, I'd have raged about it. 




> Yeah, when i've read Red Hood vs Anarky my heart stopped for a second.


After Tynion, I'm terrified of how Seeley is gonna butcher Lonnie. 




> Well here's hoping that the solicit for Detective Comics do hint at th very least that Tim will be operating in some capacity maybe as a new member of the Outsiders.


You said the same thing about Steph but I don't see that happening. They're not gonna have the Outsiders team be half/over half Bat characters. Tynion said he has 2 unannounced projects comic this Summer; Tim is almost certainly gonna be in one of those.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You said the same thing about Steph but I don't see that happening. They're not gonna have the Outsiders team be half/over half Bat characters. Tynion said he has 2 unannounced projects comic this Summer; Tim is almost certainly gonna be in one of those.


Well I am just speculating based on what I can find. Mainly because Gotham is Stephanie's home. Well I haven't heard anything from Tynion about what he is doing after No Justice is over the only one who has shown what they are up to is Snyder and Williamson. And do you think Stephanie is going to be in one of Tynion's new projects?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tim not getting one is actually the reason I'm _not_ mad. If it was just Cass and Steph being excluded for the umpteenth time, I'd have raged about it. 
> 
> After Tynion, I'm terrified of how Seeley is gonna butcher Lonnie.


Problem is that we are some of the fews who consider Cass and Steph at the same level of other robins and Babs, so i'm used not having them there.
Instead Tim was used to be there and now he isn't anymore.

I have more confidence in Seeley than in Tynion

----------


## Assam

> Problem is that we are some of the fews who consider Cass and Steph at the same level of other robins and Babs,


Despite how DC may act and how it may seem on this forum, there are far more of us than you'd think. 




> so i'm used not having them there.
> Instead Tim was used to be there and now he isn't anymore.


And this just comes down to where we each see things from. Tim's your fave, Cass is mine. I've brought this up before but after everything that happened between 2006 and 2015 (and to a lesser extent continues to today) even if I may enjoy certain appearances, I really can't care about what's done with any of the 'Privileged' BatFam members, even the ones I like (Tim and Jason, with Babs being a weird spot because of how that was handled). It's why I ended up losing interest in RHatO and why I felt nothing when we briefly thought Tim was really dead. 




> I have more confidence in Seeley than in Tynion


I'm a fairly harsh critic of Tynion's writing and I'd still say he's better than Seeley.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> He's more closer to Raiden anyway.


MGS2 Raiden for sure.




> Despite how DC may act and how it may seem on this forum, there are far more of us than you'd think.


There are dozens of us! Dozens!






> And this just comes down to where we each see things from. Tim's your fave, Cass is mine. I've brought this up before but after everything that happened between 2006 and 2015 (and to a lesser extent continues to today) even if I may enjoy certain appearances, I really can't care about what's done with any of the 'Privileged' BatFam members, even the ones I like (Tim and Jason, with Babs being a weird spot because of how that was handled). It's why I ended up losing interest in RHatO and why I felt nothing when we briefly thought Tim was really dead.


This is fair. Tim's had a rough go of it but at least he's always been around.

----------


## Assam

> There are dozens of us! Dozens!
> .


See I know you're joking, but I could imagine some of the haters here actually believing this.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Despite how DC may act and how it may seem on this forum, there are far more of us than you'd think.


I'm glad to know it




> And this just comes down to where we each see things from. Tim's your fave, Cass is mine. I've brought this up before but after everything that happened between 2006 and 2015 (and to a lesser extent continues to today) even if I may enjoy certain appearances, I really can't care about what's done with any of the 'Privileged' BatFam members, even the ones I like (Tim and Jason, with Babs being a weird spot because of how that was handled). It's why I ended up losing interest in RHatO and why I felt nothing when we briefly thought Tim was really dead.


I understand how you feel, believe me. We're in this together.




> I'm a fairly harsh critic of Tynion's writing and I'd still say he's better than Seeley.


I've never appreciated anything written by Tynion, instead of Seeley I really liked Grayson, best book of N52 (probably thanks to King), and I found his run in Nightwing Rebirth mediocre but not awful.

----------


## Assam

> I've never appreciated anything written by Tynion, instead of Seeley I really liked Grayson, best book of N52 (probably thanks to King), and I found his run in Nightwing Rebirth mediocre but not awful.


I didn't care for what I read of Grayson (the highlight of the Nu52 for me was definitely Aquaman) and I agree that his Nightwing was really mediocre. His Green Lanterns book got to a point where I dropped it, despite my love for the characters. The only things I've really liked from Seeley were the initial Raptor arcs and Shawn as a character. I've still read far more bad than good from Tynion, but I've still seen more good from him than Seeley and that stuff that works in his books _really_ works.

----------


## TheCape

> Apparently I'm the only one here who's played Metal Gear. Weird. 
> 
> Also, no sign of Tim in the June solicits.


I did it to, hmmm, how many nanomachines would Tim use  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Problem is that we are some of the fews who consider Cass and Steph at the same level of other robins and Babs, so i'm used not having them there.
> Instead Tim was used to be there and now he isn't anymore.
> 
> I have more confidence in Seeley than in Tynion


I don't think it should come as any surprise, at least I wasn't surprised. After all Tim is a D tier character now, since the start of Rebirth. It started with the new 52 which dropped him to C-tier. Can't complain though, at least he's not in limbo. Still waiting for Shazam to make a return at some point.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I did it to, hmmm, how many nanomachines would Tim use


I'm a big fan of the MGS series as well

----------


## KrustyKid

That face grab though, lol

tumblr_p4cz2hWWdu1u3xbigo1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Batman and the Robins,

tumblr_oymu6gDM9O1tih789o1_1280.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Batman and the Robins,
> 
> tumblr_oymu6gDM9O1tih789o1_1280.jpg


Nice!!

10 char

----------


## Caivu

The #979 cover with Brad Anderson's colors:

IMG_20180323_121039.jpg

----------


## Katana500

> The #979 cover with Brad Anderson's colors:
> 
> IMG_20180323_121039.jpg


Whats happening to him?

----------


## Assam

> Whats happening to him?


Being turned into an OMAC.

----------


## Caivu

> Whats happening to him?


He's getting OMAC'd.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Whats happening to him?


He's turning into a Super Robin Blue

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> He's turning into a Super Robin Blue


  :Big Grin:    Maybe even Ultra Instinct.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Maybe even Ultra Instinct.


According to spoilers he won't be getting that form until Detective #982. *Issue Summary*: Locked in his most intense fight ever against Killer Moth and The Rat Catcher, Red Robin backed in a corner feels a new power within as his body begins to react on its own? How will this epic battle inside the Ice Lounge conclude? Stay tuned!

----------


## KrustyKid

Another shot;

tumblr_p64r5gzkiW1qkjik5o1_1280.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

Here's little headshot from a little fan comic I'm going to make for the "Batty Bunch."

image.jpg

----------


## DragonPiece

So just like before Tim Drake returned in detective comics, the character is in limbo again with no plans announced.


I am sticking with my idea that Tomasi will be on detective comics in August and the book will focus more on the robins.

----------


## Assam

> I am sticking with my idea that Tomasi will be on detective comics in August and the book will focus more on the robins.


The part about Tomasi aside, where do you get that idea?

----------


## DragonPiece

> The part about Tomasi aside, where do you get that idea?


It's a reach, but Tom King was on the word balloon podcast and was talking with the host about Tomasi leaving superman & super sons. King said that he was sad, but he knew what Tomasi as doing next and it would be perfect for him with the type of writing he does. Tomasi is most known for his work with kids + with the rumor of him on detective comics, I am just putting two and two together. Since it seems clear he isn't doing a teen titans book at this point, my best guess is when he comes to detective comics, he will be focused on making robins have a lead role in the book more like how Tynion made it more of a batfamily book.  Another hint is omasi also said he wasn't done with damian and jon yet, so maybe jon will also appear at times.  Again, I realize this is just me predicting and that I could be completely off base, but I am hoping this to be the case because it would be great to have more moments with the robins together.

----------


## Assam

> It's a reach, but Tom King was on the word balloon podcast and was talking with the host about Tomasi leaving superman & super sons. King said that he was sad, but he knew what Tomasi as doing next and it would be perfect for him with the type of writing he does. Tomasi is most known for his work with kids + with the rumor of him on detective comics, I am just putting two and two together. Since it seems clear he isn't doing a teen titans book at this point, my best guess is when he comes to detective comics, he will be focused on making robins have a lead role in the book more like how Tynion made it more of a batfamily book.  Another hint is omasi also said he wasn't done with damian and jon yet, so maybe jon will also appear at times.  Again, I realize this is just me predicting and that I could be completely off base, but I am hoping this to be the case because it would be great to have more moments with the robins together.


Personally don't think it's as 'two and two together' as you think and I can only hope that none of this comes to pass.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I think that Tim will stay in limbo again waiting for a Young Justice relaunch.

----------


## Assam

> I think that Tim will stay in limbo again waiting for a Young Justice relaunch.


I don't think we'll be waiting long. I've got a good feeling they're just waiting for Bart's return in Flash War before they announce it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think we'll be waiting long. I've got a good feeling they're just waiting for Bart's return in Flash War before they announce it.


That's kind of what I think too the clues make it so obvious the future versions of the founders of Young Justice, the sketches you post from Marcio Takara, and the chints of Bart's existence in Flash War all point to it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So just like before Tim Drake returned in detective comics, the character is in limbo again with no plans announced.
> 
> 
> I am sticking with my idea that Tomasi will be on detective comics in August and the book will focus more on the robins.


Is her not staring in Young Justice

----------


## DragonPiece

> I don't think we'll be waiting long. I've got a good feeling they're just waiting for Bart's return in Flash War before they announce it.


Would be interesting if true, I personally think they are waiting till doomsday clock before bringing back connor and that whole generation.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Here's little headshot from a little fan comic I'm going to make for the "Batty Bunch."
> 
> image.jpg


Nice, keep us updated

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I don't think we'll be waiting long. I've got a good feeling they're just waiting for Bart's return in Flash War before they announce it.


Yes, that's exactly what I believe will happen. Flash war first and Doomsday Clock after (but i'm not sure anymore) could lead into a restored YJ generation.
I'm wondering if they are waiting for the start of YJ digital show too.

----------


## Magmaster12

No one has posted the Preview for Detective Comics which feature a nice return of an old favorite.
https://www.cbr.com/preview-detective-comics-977/

----------


## The Dying Detective

So Ives does exist in some capacity now all we nee to know is where are Tim's parents and his Young Justice team mates.

----------


## TheCape

Is good to see Ives back, now if we could get his parents back too that would be great.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Always liked Ives.   Have they mentioned since Rebirth if Tim's parents are really alive?

----------


## Sardorim

Shame that Stephanie dumped Tim so soon after his return.

At least Cassandra is still around.

----------


## Jadeb

Nice to see Ives, and I'd like him to return in the present-day continuity. But that would be pointless if they won't let Tim be a normal kid. Really hope Tynion's characterization is totally abandoned.

----------


## Assam

> Nice to see Ives, and I'd like him to return in the present-day continuity. But that would be pointless if they won't let Tim be a normal kid. Really hope Tynion's characterization is totally abandoned.


With Williamson writing Odyssey, do you really think anyone BUT Tynion will be writing YJ?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nice to see Ives, and I'd like him to return to the present-day continuity. But that would be pointless if they won't let Tim be a normal kid. Really hope Tynion's characterization is totally abandoned.


I... never realized it... but since New 52 does he have any civilian life? I remember right from the beginning his face is known to N.O.W.H.E.R.E. so he went on the run and moving from places to places even after N.O.W.H.E.R.E's gone. We saw him in civilian attire many times, but I don't remember if he ever go to school or have any friends outside the team. Then once Detective Comic started he only talk about the university without showing what his life looks like, after which he "died" and return only to deal with team problems and his future self.

----------


## millernumber1

> With Williamson writing Odyssey, do you really think anyone BUT Tynion will be writing YJ?


I just don't see Tynion having room in his schedule to write any more books.

----------


## Assam

> I just don't see Tynion having room in his schedule to write any more books.


He's already said on twitter that he has more than one new book coming out soon.

----------


## millernumber1

> He's already said on twitter that he has more than one new book coming out soon.


Hmmmmm. I'll believe it when I see it.  :Smile:  (And as a Tynion fan, I'm all for it.  :Smile:  )

----------


## TheCape

> I... never realized it... but since New 52 does he have any civilian life? I remember right from the beginning his face is known to N.O.W.H.E.R.E. so he went on the run and moving from places to places even after N.O.W.H.E.R.E's gone. We saw him in civilian attire many times, but I don't remember if he ever go to school or have any friends outside the team. Then once Detective Comic started he only talk about the university without showing what his life looks like, after which he "died" and return only to deal with team problems and his future self.


That's one of the many complains of Tim fans since the reboot, he has been on costume 24/7 since 2011, only since Rebirth we have seem a few moments, but it isn't much frankly.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> With Williamson writing Odyssey, do you really think anyone BUT Tynion will be writing YJ?


Oh God please no! First Lobdell then Tynion IV, how much i have to suffer for my Timmy boy?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh God please no! First Lobdell then Tynion IV, how much i have to suffer for my Timmy boy?


Maybe DC should fall on their knees and beg Peter David to come back to be free of having to write Scarlet Spider.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Peter David would be great, but my dream is still Chuck Dixon.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Peter David would be great, but my dream is still Chuck Dixon.


Sadly after Bane Conquest Dixon still has no other projects.

----------


## KrustyKid

Good to see Tim went to Bruce for help in the latest issue of Tec. Really enjoyed that scene.

----------


## KrustyKid

Another one of Rebirth Tim

tumblr_p6fmp97Hw71uf7ul4o1_500.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Another one of Rebirth Tim
> 
> tumblr_p6fmp97Hw71uf7ul4o1_500.jpg


Nice!

10 char

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, here's the first part of that cartoon series I teased earlier, featuring a small redesign of Tim's costume.
https://franchisewars.tumblr.com/pos...ndup-episode-1

----------


## The Whovian

> Hopefully after Eternal, a solo book will happen, there can never be enough Tim Drake.


Thank you sir!

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## The Dying Detective

For real and shouldn't this be put on the DIck Grayson thread?

----------


## Assam

No it's not real, yesterday was just April Fool's Day. I'm also fairly positive that '6' asset was taken from Big Hero 6 promotional material.

----------


## Rac7d*

> For real and shouldn't this be put on the DIck Grayson thread?


I thought it was funny the repainted him as tim

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No it's not real, yesterday was just April Fool's Day. I'm also fairly positive that '6' asset was taken from Big Hero 6 promotional material.


Thank you and now that you mention it the 6 did look the same as the one from the Big Hero 6 logo.




> I thought it was funny the repainted him as tim


I suppose you can't see it but I am laughing.

----------


## The Whovian

> Sadly after Bane Conquest Dixon still has no other projects.


I really wish DC would hand him the keys to a new Red Robin series.

----------


## Restingvoice

What's the Red Robin series like, in comparison to Nightwing and Red Hood series, presently or in the past?

----------


## Assam

> What's the Red Robin series like, in comparison to Nightwing and Red Hood series, presently or in the past?


The Red Robin series had two runs, by Yost and Nicieza respectively, and they had very different things going for them. Yost's run, in my mind the far superior run, follows Tim trying to prove Bruce is still alive while also losing his damn mind after everything that he'd been put through the previous five years and becoming more like Bruce in the process, his arc being about rejecting that transformation and finding himself again. No Nightwing run is close to being as good as this and only the current RHatO series is even in its league. 

The second run wasn't nearly as good. The story was a lot more clunky and less interesting and it had an annoying focus on making every girl that wasn't Tim's sister in love with him. It's average at best on the whole, although it does contain my favorite panel in the series and #25 is my favorite issue in the series.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The Red Robin series had two runs, by Yost and Nicieza respectively, and they had very different things going for them. Yost's run, in my mind the far superior run, follows Tim trying to prove Bruce is still alive while also losing his damn mind after everything that he'd been put through the previous five years and becoming more like Bruce in the process, his arc being about rejecting that transformation and finding himself again. No Nightwing run is close to being as good as this and only the current RHatO series is even in its league. 
> 
> The second run wasn't nearly as good. The story was a lot more clunky and less interesting and it had an annoying focus on making every girl that wasn't Tim's sister in love with him. It's average at best on the whole, although it does contain my favorite panel in the series and #25 is my favorite issue in the series.


Thank you.

I've heard about the first story's premise since it goes hand in hand with Bruce's disappearance, but how about the second story? I assume it's set after The Return of Bruce Wayne. What does he do after that?

----------


## Fergus

> What's the Red Robin series like, in comparison to Nightwing and Red Hood series, presently or in the past?


Better than the first run of RHATO but not as good as current Nightwing or a lot of other Nightwing runs. It's quite reactionary to Damian Wayne concept and is essentially Tim channelling a more unbalanced Bruce Wayne.


It's the only time I ever enjoyed Tim or found him interesting though the cringe factor is high in how reactionary it is to the Damian concept and his depression is palpable.

----------


## Mataza

Heya




> It's quite reactionary to Damian Wayne concept


Its not about Damian specifically until the hit list, and even there its just tangentially about him not trusting Damian. Mostly because even Damian thinks he may turn out bad, cant blame Tim for agreeing.




> and is essentially Tim channelling a more unbalanced Bruce Wayne.


Id say Bruce wayne has been definitely more unbalanced than this character ever has. That said, we do see a character that lost his footing and is trying to find it again. It is a very real and common situation for teenagers growing into adulthood, and the reason the story resonated so well with most readers then and even now.




> though the cringe factor is high in how reactionary it is to the Damian concept and his depression is palpable.


There are several elements at play here. First, Tim is kicked out of the mantle by his own brother. Second, The legacy of Robin is being handed to someone that has killed. Third, the character became Robin because he wanted to protect that legacy, and that legacy is being used as a means to control said murderer, this is spitting on everything that the Robin mantle stood for, it went from being an honor to being a stepping stone and a pacifier. It made for good storytelling tho.
And thats 3 pages in the entirety of Yosts run. And it ends with Tim deciding he doesnt care anymore.

Tim has been depressed since Identity Crisis. And you could see him going through the stages of grief in Both runs. It was good stuff. What do you think was cringe?




> What's the Red Robin series like, in comparison to Nightwing and Red Hood series, presently or in the past?


Hm, id say the grail is a pretty amazing story. The rest of it ranges from mediocre to really good. Nicieza understands what moves the characters to do what they do better than any other guy in the business. His work with spiderman and other characters tells me he really gets into their headspace.

As for how it measures up to Nightwing. Dick is a character thats amazing with other heroes, but as a solo hero he cant ever seem to be interesting, i have read almost everything with Dick because he was my favorite character back in the 2000s, but it always felt like Daredevil without the tension or the drama.

Current Red Hood has great character moments, sometimes we see Jason alone with his thoughts and i honestly feel bad for the guy. Bizarro steals the show when they are together and its always fun. But i never felt the need to read what comes next week (except when something bad happened to Bizarro). Its a great book, but one i feel i can drop at any moment. When i was reading Red Robin i was always wondering what Drake would do next, because if there was something different about Red Robin is that he wasnt reactionary like most heroes.

As to which is better? not sure, read Red Robin and you tell me, it is at the very least a very good time.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Problem is that DC brutally stopped the natural evolution path that Tim was doing as Red Robin.
Flashpoint came in and New 52 destroyed everything good was done with the character in the last years, leaving him in a not well defined condition.
Tim Drake has lost his purpose as Red Robin, becoming only one of the robins, loosing all his history and friends. 
Tynion run in Detective Comics is only a loss of time, he really has nothing added or fixed the character. 
Tim desperatly needs some good writer that could get back a direction, a purpose and put him back on track. I'm really worried about Tim.

----------


## Fergus

> Heya
> 
> 
> Its not about Damian specifically until the hit list, and even there its just tangentially about him not trusting Damian. Mostly because even Damian thinks he may turn out bad, cant blame Tim for agreeing.
> 
> 
> Id say Bruce wayne has been definitely more unbalanced than this character ever has. That said, we do see a character that lost his footing and is trying to find it again. It is a very real and common situation for teenagers growing into adulthood, and the reason the story resonated so well with most readers then and even now.
> 
> 
> ...


We've just found out about Damian Wayne. The biological son and Heir of Bruce Wayne who is the Grandson of Ra's Alghul Heir to the Demon A dangerous prodigy whose attitude is anti Robin.


Red Robin is about Tim Wayne becomes CEO of Wayne enterprises to stop it from being taken over [despite Damian being the only oe we see do any actual Wayne board duties]

Ra's suddenly seeing Tim as a worthy successor
Ra's daughter trying to rape Tim.
Almost as if the writers were trying to borrow aspects of the Damian Wayne concept and graft it onto Tim. Tim isn't a Wayne, isn't Bruce's heir, isn't inline to inherit Wayne enterprises, Isn't anything to do withe LOA and has nothing to do with Ra''s and never has. All these are Damian's. His heritage and birthright seemed odd that the second he arrived on the scene a displaced Tim started grasping at straws.

The parallels and attempt at imitation was so obvious it was cringe. The entire series was reactionary Damian a biological Wayne and an Alghul

Amazing how none of Tim's friends made that list

Robin does not belong to Tim and never has he doesn't get t say who can or can't become Robin. Robin belongs to Dick Grayson and he's to do as he sees fit.

At the end of the day Dick was proved to have made the right decision since that Murderer hat he made Robin went on to achieve more than any other Robin in the same time. Saving the world and giving his life twice for others.

So Bravo Grayson he did exactly what Bruce would have wanted and what Bruce did. Truly thinking like THE Batman.

Not sure how much of a Tim Drake fan you are but Tim did not become Robin to protect the legacy of Robin. 
Other's have been kicked out, forced out or left the Robin role and managed to recover just fine. Tim's failure to graduate is his own character's fault.

Jason had the worst ejection from the role and look at him today The RED HOOD one of DC's most beloved
Dick was fired  yet look at Nightwing today . The beating heart of the DCU
Duke was a Faux Robin and today he is the Signal. a distinct character with a unique identity fully graduated from sidekick [soon to be Outsider with his own base] and Tim is still running around in Robin colours despite not being Robin and having let the role 2 Robins ago.

----------


## Fergus

> Problem is that DC brutally stopped the natural evolution path that Tim was doing as Red Robin.
> Flashpoint came in and New 52 destroyed everything good was done with the character in the last years, leaving him in a not well defined condition.
> Tim Drake has lost his purpose as Red Robin, becoming only one of the robins, loosing all his history and friends. 
> Tynion run in Detective Comics is only a loss of time, he really has nothing added or fixed the character. 
> Tim desperatly needs some good writer that could get back a direction, a purpose and put him back on track. I'm really worried about Tim.


What was his reason for becoming Red Robin under Tynion new origin?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> What was his reason for becoming Red Robin under Tynion new origin?


In N52 Tim has never been Robin, he started as Red Robin at the beginning.
In Rebirth Tynion only restored "The Lonely place of Dying" as Tim's Robin origin, without exploring the reasons for the transition to Red Robin. 
We even don't know if Tim's parents are alive, ah we surely know one thing: Tim is really smart  :Wink:  (as reported in every page of the lacking Tynion run).

----------


## josai21

> We've just found out about Damian Wayne. The biological son and Heir of Bruce Wayne who is the Grandson of Ra's Alghul Heir to the Demon A dangerous prodigy whose attitude is anti Robin.
> 
> 
> Red Robin is about Tim Wayne becomes CEO of Wayne enterprises to stop it from being taken over [despite Damian being the only oe we see do any actual Wayne board duties]
> 
> Ra's suddenly seeing Tim as a worthy successor
> Ra's daughter trying to rape Tim.
> Almost as if the writers were trying to borrow aspects of the Damian Wayne concept and graft it onto Tim. Tim isn't a Wayne, isn't Bruce's heir, isn't inline to inherit Wayne enterprises, Isn't anything to do withe LOA and has nothing to do with Ra''s and never has. All these are Damian's. His heritage and birthright seemed odd that the second he arrived on the scene a displaced Tim started grasping at straws.
> 
> ...


Respectfully, your facts are completely wrong. From what I can tell, you're approaching this as a Damian Centric fan and projecting. 

A. Tim did attend board meetings. Did you read any of his stuff prior to Battle for the Cowl?

B. The whole Ras Concept had literally nothing to do with Damian. If anything, it was an analogue to the similarities between Bruce and Tim; the key internal conflict in the series was how Tim was becoming more like Bruce and how he handled that. 

C. Tim did become Robin not only to bring Bruce out of darkness but also about its legacy.

D. erm...Dick free to do what he sees fit with the Robin mantle? No. Robin belonged to Tim at that time. Tim was Robin. It wasn't like he had another graduate role and just disagreed with his successor. He was literally fired from the position by Dick with no warning. No discussion. He just comes into the cave and sees Damian wearing his colors.

----------


## Mataza

Hey, thanks for answering.




> Red Robin is about Tim Wayne becomes CEO of Wayne enterprises to stop it from being taken over [despite Damian being the only oe we see do any actual Wayne board duties]


First let me adress the elephant in the room. A 10 year old doing board duties isnt good writing, its what you expect to find in a bad anime.
Second, the company was left in Tims hands, he is the actual heir and this was writen in Brues Will, should anything ever happen to him, meanwhile it was in Lucious Fox hands. Tim had no clue about this, and had to emacipate to become a CEO. He still left Lucious to take care of the company, exactly like Bruce did.




> Ra's suddenly seeing Tim as a worthy successor


It wasnt sudden, in the resurrection of Ras al Ghoul we see that he was very interested in Tim, and saw him as someone as worthy as Damian. Like the flesh and blood of the Demon head who was enchanced and trained all his life was just as good as Tim.




> Ra's daughter trying to rape Tim.


Where have i seen that before i wonder?




> Almost as if the writers were trying to borrow aspects of the Damian Wayne concept and graft it onto Tim.


Thats not true actually, if anything its Damian the one borrowing things from Tim all the way from the start. Morrison did it knowingly, why do you even think Red Bird was a thing?
We see a darker Tim basically since NML, tho post identity crisis was where the big shift suddenly happened, and none of it was inspired by Damian. Titans of Tomorrow is foreshadowing a darker turn for the character a long time before Damian was a thing.




> Tim isn't a Wayne


Yep he is. Its became his last name, he celebrated fathers day with bruce. Tho if you refer to current continuity, that may change back by the end of doomsday clock.




> Isn't anything to do withe LOA and has nothing to do with Ra''s and never has.


Pre flashpoint Tim was as related to LOA as Bruce was for most of his career. 




> His heritage and birthright.  The entire series was reactionary Damian a biological Wayne and an Alghul


You seem to think that somehow biological children have more rights or are more loved than adopted children. This is wrong, ask Johnatan Kent.




> Amazing how none of Tim's friends made that list


Why would they be? They are his friends.




> Robin does not belong to Tim and never has he doesn't get t say who can or can't become Robin.


Actually Robin belongs to Batman acording to Dick Grayson. 




> At the end of the day Dick was proved to have made the right decision since that Murderer hat he made Robin went on to achieve more than any other Robin in the same time. Saving the world and giving his life twice for others.


Uh? He saved, the universe, the timeline, the world, gotham, hong kong, Batman, Nightwing. And he didnt even have to get killed to do it.
Theres this hilarious Robin issue where The Joker examines the 3 Robins, and is honestly amazed at how good and capable the last one is. How he keeps knocking Batmans worst enemies one after the other. Its very good because you dont really see it until its shown. The character fought so hard to beat them and it was always with ingenuity and resourcefulness instead of fighting prowess that you really dont think he is that effective until you are shown the results of his labor.




> So Bravo Grayson he did exactly what Bruce would have wanted and what Bruce did. Truly thinking like THE Batman.


??? Bruce didnt fire Tim to get Damian in the job.




> Tim did not become Robin to protect the legacy of Robin.


He did. He deeply admired Robin, much more than he admired Batman actually. Half of the character struggle in his early run was him being worthy enough to the legacy.




> Tim's failure to graduate is his own character's fault.


From what i saw in Red Robin he graduated just fine, his book was popular at the time.
Ive heard the problems with the character really started with the new 52. Ill probably read some of Teen Titans in the new 52 soon to see whats what there, but seems like a waste of time in the Post Rebirth era, so im not sure.

----------


## TheCape

Maybe i'm wrong, but i thougth that Ra's sister was the one that tried to rape him, not his daugther, still creepy and weird thougth.

----------


## TheCape

Also, about Tim being a Wayne or not, well he wasn't originally, he really didn't any desire to be one and Jack Drake in spite of his many failures as a parent, still was his father on his eyes, more than Bruce ever was (those 2 always had a more teacher/student dynamic and ocasionally sibling-like, even if Bruce could get a bit "fatherly" because he can't help himself sometimes), but many things happened after the 90s, Tim's pretty much lost the most important people on his life (his dad, his stepmother, his girlfriend, his best friend, his other best friend), so Bruce adopted him as a way of saying "look i'm know that things hadn't been good for you lately, but you are part of this family and you would always had a home here", i had problem with this direction and i'm not sure if it was the best for the characther, but at the time it make sense, specially because Batman was trying to be more friendly after the events of Infinite Crisis. I don't like the part of him changing his name to "Tim Wayne", i thougth that it was unecesary (and the reasons were kind stupid), but the story left clear that Tim saw himself as a Drake first and foremost, hell is his father memory what make back down on his attemp to kill Boomerang (his dad's murderer) not Bruce, so is questionable decision but nothing that make him unlikable for me.

----------


## TheCape

As for how the Red Robin series compare to his brothers Nightwing and Red Hood, well is down to personal taste, but i think that Yost run was better that Lodbell's first run on Jason i reserve judgement on the rest until is finished and that most of the runs on Dick's ongoing (that series was a solid beggining, a really ugly middle and a ok climax), except for Dixon's run he is hard to top, but again that just opinion.

----------


## Mataza

> Maybe i'm wrong, but i thougth that Ra's sister was the one that tried to rape him, not his daugther, still creepy and weird thougth.


Daughter of acheron. half sister of Ras. Its no different than any other of the creepy things Ras has done to get a successor tbh. He thought Tim would make for a good one.
Ras admires intelligence and resourcefulness above all else.




> Also, about Tim being a Wayne or not, well he wasn't originally, he really didn't any desire to be one and Jack Drake in spite of his many failures as a parent, still was his father on his eyes, more than Bruce ever was


Thats actually not entirely true. Tim even said in many ways Bruce was more of a father to him than Jack was. I think it was more of a Jor El / Jonathan Kent thing, where he loved both as one would a father and knew they each did the best they could to raise him. 
I think the biggest reason he was reluctant about Bruce being his father has to do with the fact that he was reluctant to see Bruce as himself in the future. You know, good, indepth character stuff.

----------


## TheCape

> Thats actually not entirely true. Tim even said in many ways Bruce was more of a father to him than Jack was. I think it was more of a Jor El / Jonathan Kent thing, where he loved both as one would a father and knew they each did the best they could to raise him. 
> I think the biggest reason he was reluctant about Bruce being his father has to do with the fact that he was reluctant to see Bruce as himself in the future. You know, good, indepth character stuff.


I think than that appeared way later thougth, in the 90s i don't remenber Tim seeing or talking of Bruce as a father (he did consider Dick his brother and was pretty open about it thougth), specially because he knew that Bruce was still strugling with Jason's death and feels guilty for picking a remplacement so soon, althougth to be fair what you said is not completly unlikely, Tim and Jack has many problems understanding eacth other and things didn't get beetween then until Dana came to the picture.

----------


## Mataza

Oh yeah, definitely, their father/son relationship started after he got adopted. Before that they were friends and partners.
After he got adopted he started slowly regarding Bruce as his father, and Bruce started behaving like a father and actually worrying over Tim being out there fighting crime. It was very sweet watching the two come to terms with their new relationship, even tho nothing had really changed, suddenly everything had changed.

Its the healthiest and happiest ive seen Bruce and it came as a completely natural development.





Sauce: https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/524251.html

Also according to my friend that issue will be key in Doomsday clock, especially the watch.

----------


## The Dying Detective

I hope Priest mentions Tim in his Deathstroke vs Batman story he's already done Jason thought there could be more but what do you all think do want Tim's jealousy of Damian to be reincorporated?

----------


## Fergus

> Respectfully, your facts are completely wrong. From what I can tell, you're approaching this as a Damian Centric fan and projecting. 
> 
> A. Tim did attend board meetings. Did you read any of his stuff prior to Battle for the Cowl?
> 
> B. The whole Ras Concept had literally nothing to do with Damian. If anything, it was an analogue to the similarities between Bruce and Tim; the key internal conflict in the series was how Tim was becoming more like Bruce and how he handled that. 
> 
> C. Tim did become Robin not only to bring Bruce out of darkness but also about its legacy.
> 
> D. erm...Dick free to do what he sees fit with the Robin mantle? No. Robin belonged to Tim at that time. Tim was Robin. It wasn't like he had another graduate role and just disagreed with his successor. He was literally fired from the position by Dick with no warning. No discussion. He just comes into the cave and sees Damian wearing his colors.


I am a Damian fan though at the time of Red Robin i was still on the fence about Damian.

A Yes i did but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't actually do anything to save the company from Hush and Ra's

B That's not how it read to me. Tim in that conflict was anti Bruce. I don't recall Bruce giving up or trying to die.

C okay

Robin is an identity created by and belonging to Dick Grayson. Dick has the right to fire or take it from Tim the current holder without fanfare. He only did it because he knew Tim was ready and Damian needed the guidance.

----------


## Fergus

> Hey, thanks for answering.
> 
> 
> First let me adress the elephant in the room. A 10 year old doing board duties isnt good writing, its what you expect to find in a bad anime.
> Second, the company was left in Tims hands, he is the actual heir and this was writen in Brues Will, should anything ever happen to him, meanwhile it was in Lucious Fox hands. Tim had no clue about this, and had to emacipate to become a CEO. He still left Lucious to take care of the company, exactly like Bruce did.
> 
> 
> It wasnt sudden, in the resurrection of Ras al Ghoul we see that he was very interested in Tim, and saw him as someone as worthy as Damian. Like the flesh and blood of the Demon head who was enchanced and trained all his life was just as good as Tim.
> 
> ...


you are the authority on bad writing
Tim wasn't left the company Lucius was given POA and then when Ra's tried to take over was forced to name Tim heir inorder to prevent the take over

Ra's saw him as worthy as Damian again trying to graft elements of Damian onto Tim
No Tim was never as connected to the LOA as Bruce
Yeah red bird is the same as shamelessly trying to be Bruce's son and borrow LOA ties
Tim is a Drake not a Wayne
Bruce took in Dick and was a father to him just like Dick did for Damian
Yeah he successfully graduated that's why he's back dressed as Robin, being a sidekick under Kate while Damian is out there being more independent than him.

No he didn't save the word or anything in his time as robin [all of 2 years] nor did he do any of that within 3 years of being with the family like damian. 

*Why would they they are his friends"* point exactly

Robin does not belong to Batman

*You seem to think that somehow biological children have more rights or are more loved than adopted children. This is wrong, ask Johnatan Kent.
*

Oh knock it the hell off no one here thinks that.

----------


## Fergus

> Maybe i'm wrong, but i thougth that Ra's sister was the one that tried to rape him, not his daugther, still creepy and weird thougth.


You are correct it was the sister sorry.

----------


## Fergus

> Also, about Tim being a Wayne or not, well he wasn't originally, he really didn't any desire to be one and Jack Drake in spite of his many failures as a parent, still was his father on his eyes, more than Bruce ever was (those 2 always had a more teacher/student dynamic and ocasionally sibling-like, even if Bruce could get a bit "fatherly" because he can't help himself sometimes), but many things happened after the 90s, Tim's pretty much lost the most important people on his life (his dad, his stepmother, his girlfriend, his best friend, his other best friend), so Bruce adopted him as a way of saying "look i'm know that things hadn't been good for you lately, but you are part of this family and you would always had a home here", i had problem with this direction and i'm not sure if it was the best for the characther, but at the time it make sense, specially because Batman was trying to be more friendly after the events of Infinite Crisis. I don't like the part of him changing his name to "Tim Wayne", i thougth that it was unecesary (and the reasons were kind stupid), but the story left clear that Tim saw himself as a Drake first and foremost, hell is his father memory what make back down on his attemp to kill Boomerang (his dad's murderer) not Bruce, so is questionable decision but nothing that make him unlikable for me.


I really hated the Tim Wayne thing. It'd be like Dick calling himself Dick Wayne. No. Dick and Bruce are closer than Damian and Bruce but John Grayson is Dick's dad and nothing can change that

----------


## Fergus

> Oh yeah, definitely, their father/son relationship started after he got adopted. Before that they were friends and partners.
> After he got adopted he started slowly regarding Bruce as his father, and Bruce started behaving like a father and actually worrying over Tim being out there fighting crime. It was very sweet watching the two come to terms with their new relationship, even tho nothing had really changed, suddenly everything had changed.
> 
> *Its the healthiest and happiest ive seen Bruce* and it came as a completely natural development.
> 
> 
> 
> Also according to my friend that issue will be key in Doomsday clock, especially the watch.


Jesus really?!

----------


## KrustyKid

The team-up we've all been waiting for!

coast_to_coast_by_hiii_i-db3z5c6.jpg

----------


## Mataza

Hello!




> you are the authority on bad writing


Thanks, im so new at this its hard to be an authority on anything!




> Tim wasn't left the company Lucius was given POA and then when Ra's tried to take over was forced to name Tim heir inorder to prevent the take over


Actually Bruce gave Tim Everything! As soon as Tim became an adult. 
The people that think it should have been Dick or Damian really dont understand the depth of the relationship between them. We are talking about the Robin that was trained not to be Robin, but to be Batman!
will.jpg
We are talking about the Kid Batman was comfortable with letting solo after Jason blew up! Self suficient, independent, with the best of intentions and always eager to learn.




> No Tim was never as connected to the LOA as Bruce


But he was! Ras wanted him as a successor after all.
In the same fashion Bruce wasnt as conected to the LOA until he was. Seems like you are applying a double standard here.




> Yeah red bird is the same as shamelessly trying to be Bruce's son and borrow LOA ties


Fairly certain Bruce was thinking of adopting him before Damian came along. So you are wrong about this too!
And borrow the LOA ties? seems like he borrowed them from Bruce, not Damian.




> Tim is a Drake not a Wayne


And Clark is an El, not a Kent!




> Yeah he successfully graduated that's why he's back dressed as Robin, being a sidekick under Kate


He graduated successfully, then his graduation was deleted, his position was deleted, his history was deleted, his personality was changed, etc. How could you even think this is a valid point knowing what the character has been through? At least thats what everyone that read the new 52 seems to be complaining about. I know the character im reading in the Robin and Red Robin books is almost nothing like the character im reading in Detective comics, even under the same name.





> No he didn't save the word or anything in his time as robin [all of 2 years] nor did he do any of that within 3 years of being with the family like damian.


Yes he did! He did it in young justice, like 3 times, and i think he saved all of existence one time too.
Saving Nightwing and Batman was the first thing he did. Saving Hong Kong was in Robin Vol 1, saving Batman from the scarecrow was done again in the very issue he officially becomes Robin. It was a great issue, wonder if someone can remind me the number, i think it was a 4 issue story arc and he was only featured in the last issue, but it was a cool story.




> point exactly


But he isnt a machine, he trusts his friends. He doesnt trust Magog, or Azrael, or Damian.
Also reminder that at that point most of those friends were dead or just coming back. Is your point that he shouldnt take precautions unless he takes every precaution? Because it sounds more like an attack on the character than a remotely valid point.




> Robin does not belong to Batman


I used to think not, but then Batman came and decided Tim wasnt fit to be Robin anymore. And Batman did take and fire another Robin Before wargames!




> Oh knock it the hell off no one here thinks that.


Then why even bring it up?

Anyway, the character has a very long and interesting story. I know it kept me busy for a long time!

----------


## TheCape

Tim didn't borrow from Damian anything and Damian didn't borrow anything from Tim either, those 2 borrowed from Bruce, becuase.. you know he is the father of the franchise and everyone derivates from him, so that point is kind silly.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim didn't borrow from Damian anything and Damian didn't borrow anything from Tim either, *those 2 borrowed from Bruce*, becuase.. you know he is the father of the franchise and everyone derivates from him, so that point is kind silly.


The only time the Robin's borrow from each other is when it comes to their wardrobe, lol

----------


## TheCape

> The only time the Robin's borrow from each other is when it comes to their wardrobe, lol


Amen to that bro  :Smile:

----------


## CPSparkles

It's pointless arguing about Red Robin since the series is undone. The events you are arguing about never happened.
So much of Tim's history has been deleted. It's just depressing

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's pointless arguing about Red Robin since the series is undone. The events you are arguing about never happened.
> So much of Tim's history has been deleted. It's just depressing


Pretty much this. There's really no point in arguing.

I'd say with the reboot, of the Robin boys Dick and Tim took it the hardest. I'd say Jason benefited for the better.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Pretty much this. There's really no point in arguing.
> 
> I'd say with the reboot, of the Robin boys Dick and Tim took it the hardest. I'd say Jason benefited for the better.


Dick and Tim will probably take the longest to recover.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Dick and Tim will probably take the longest to recover.


No doubt about that

----------


## CPSparkles

> Pretty much this. There's really no point in arguing.
> 
> I'd say with the reboot, of the Robin boys Dick and Tim took it the hardest. I'd say Jason benefited for the better.


Yep. Having the same dedicated writer really paid off for Jason. Dick also lost a bunch but the most painful thing about Tim's is the lack of clarity. 

Why did he gave to be 16? It does nothing but shorten his tenure.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No doubt about that


And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

They made Tim, Dick, and Jason all too young unless Bruce is supposed to be between 25 and 32 somewhere.   Bruce 35, Dick 25, Jason 22ish, Tim 19 worked just fine.

----------


## Mataza

> And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?


Hello, good question!

Dick Grayson needs to be the heart of more teams, and his solo should be about travelling around and pairing up with different heroes. this month Green Arrow, next month wonderwoman, the month after that with the doom patrol. Basically leave his footprint everywhere. Have him have cameos in other books. of course this cant happen, as thats what Batman does. So i guess make him batman again for a few years.

I would have Tim recover all of his history and make doomsday clock about, among other things the son that was taken from Bruce. We already have the fathers day clock, Dr. manhattan father being a clockmaker. The strange voice that does the whole "sacrifice a few to save many" that ozymandias subscribes to, etc.  Bringing that lost son would mean symbolicaly bringing back a lot of what was lost.
Also write him back as the mature and kind kid he used to be, play off his wit and cunning, which was what set him apart.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Hello, good question!
> 
> Dick Grayson needs to be the heart of more teams, and his solo should be about travelling around and pairing up with different heroes. this month Green Arrow, next month wonderwoman, the month after that with the doom patrol. Basically leave his footprint everywhere. Have him have cameos in other books. of course this cant happen, as thats what Batman does. So i guess make him batman again for a few years.
> 
> I would have Tim recover all of his history and make doomsday clock about, among other things the son that was taken from Bruce. We already have the fathers day clock, Dr. manhattan father being a clockmaker. The strange voice that does the whole "sacrifice a few to save many" that ozymandias subscribes to, etc.  Bringing that lost son would mean symbolicaly bringing back a lot of what was lost.
> Also write him back as the mature and kind kid he used to be, play off his wit and cunning, which was what set him apart.


Interesting ideas and it basically put Dick in a Hard Traveling Heroes-esque storyline. Well at some point someone was going to pick up on that plot thread regarding Doomsday Clock and it end goal should be to bring back what was lost I hope Geoff Johns s up to the task of doing so he does good work but I don't see how exactly this is going to affect the DC Universe as a whole because Doctor Manhattan isn't Superboy Prime. And so far some of TIm's history has been recovered but there are gaps to be filled and it's not an easy task too.

----------


## Aahz

> And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?


Dick just needs good stories, apart from thathe got most of the relevant stuff from pre flash point back imo.

In case of Tim they need to bring more back than just his origin story.

----------


## josai21

IMO, the best fix would have been for everyone to remember everything from before the N52 once Wally returned. 

It would have allowed for everyone to struggle with those two sets of memories and the world they currently live in.

Tim searching for Connor would have made a great storyline imo.

----------


## Aahz

> They made Tim, Dick, and Jason all too young unless Bruce is supposed to be between 25 and 32 somewhere.   Bruce 35, Dick 25, Jason 22ish, Tim 19 worked just fine.


It doesn't make much sense for Jason to more than one year (or 2 years at the absolute maximum) older than Tim. He wasn't older than the other robin when he started and his time as Robin was quite short.

----------


## Aahz

> Yep. Having the same dedicated writer really paid off for Jason. Dick also lost a bunch but the most painful thing about Tim's is the lack of clarity. 
> 
> Why did he gave to be 16? It does nothing but shorten his tenure.


In Jasons case getting rid of basically everything they did with him post UTRH also helped.

In Dicks case at least his Robin career was allready pre flashpoint kind of blurry, and most of the good stuff from his solo career as Nightwing was allready destroyed before One Year Later, and his Titans had anyway not been that great for quite some time at the time. So the losses were in his case also not that big. And with Titans back it is anyway not much missing (even if that series is still not great).

----------


## Alycat

> And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?


Dickw as fine during Grayson and early Nightwing. They need to stop falling back on old things for him.

----------


## Assam

> IMO, the best fix would have been for everyone to remember everything from before the N52 once Wally returned.


Rebirth never should have been a thing. After effectively wasting everyone's time with the Nu52 for 5 years, they decided to waste even _more_ time (we're approaching the two year mark) not having anything with their writers planned out and just telling everyone to do what they wanna do, giving them zero idea of what was canon at this point, and to just wait for Johns to tell _his_ story. Doomsday Clock isn't going to end till 2019, possibly late 2019 if there are more delays. They've effectively wasted an entire decade on erasing their universe, bringing some stuff back, rehashing old stories and ultimately bringing _a lot_ more things back, but still not everything, nor will we ever have everything back. 

What they should have done was have had the Rebirth special be even more of a jumping on point than it was. Have it tell Wally's story of returning and in the process,  returning everything to the Pre-FP continuity, but with 'remnants' (AKA the handful of things from the Nu52 people liked, most of which could fit in the old universe just fine) surviving. 




> It doesn't make much sense for Jason to more than one year (or 2 years at the absolute maximum) older than Tim. He wasn't older than the other robin when he started and his time as Robin was quite short.


Sticking with the age differences we know while also moving forward and trying to have things kinda make sense, I'd like to see: 

Bruce: 43
Barbara: 31 (I'd rather she be older, but I know there's a limit to how old people will accept Bruce) 
Dick: 27 
Cass: 23
Jason: 23 
Steph: 22
Tim: 21
Damian: 14 

Obviously with how DC have things arranged right now we'll never have anything resembling this, but what ya gonna do

----------


## Aahz

> Sticking with the age differences we know while also moving forward and trying to have things kinda make sense, I'd like to see: 
> 
> Bruce: 43
> Barbara: 31 (I'd rather she be older, but I know there's a limit to how old people will accept Bruce) 
> Dick: 27 
> Cass: 23
> Jason: 23 
> Steph: 22
> Tim: 21
> ...


if you mean the pre flashpoint age differences, Dick would have to be roughly 2-3 years older, and Barbara was iirc only 2 or 3 years older than Dick.

----------


## Aahz

And in a 15 year time line that stick at least somehow to original chronology and starting ages. You would probaly end up with something like:

Bruce: 41 (or 39 with the Golden Age Starting Age)
Barbara: 28 (33 with her pre crisis age)
Dick: 26
Cass: 19 (or only 6 or 7 if you go by time when Carolyn Wu-San originally died)
Jason: 19
Steph: 19
Tim: 18
Damian: 10 (and maybe only 6 or 7 if you consider when Ras and Thalia actually appeared the first time)

----------


## Mataza

Tim should be a day over 17 imho! One year later put him at 16 and not much time passed after that.

Wasnt Damian an artificially aged clone or something?

----------


## godisawesome

> And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?


To me, the answer is clearly to embrace the timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly continuity changes as an in-story element for Tim to become aware of and seek to resolve for himself and his friends. Tim suddenly realizes that he has conflicting memories, all of which feel completely real, and that he's missing his best friends. He start looking for them and trying to draw out their shared past. Through Bart, he finds out that while the Flashes were involved in some time changes, as was whatever Batman's investigating, there's even more changes to their timeline that are constantly happening. I'd use this to address in story the various, seemingly out-of-nowhere changes that took place to Kon and Cassie even before the New 52, as well as Bart's gradual loss of his time-travel immunity and Tim's changes between the New 52 and Rebirth.

And while the regathers Young Justice becomes part of a Time War-style tale connected to the equally unstable and shifting Legion of Superheroes, it begins to seriously do a few numbers on Tim's character. His parents are alive... But he remembers them dying. He's got his friends back... But he remembers most of them dying horrible deaths and he was force to fight them. He remembers being helpless to stop his life from falling apart... And now he's got a shot at a do-over.

Tim becomes both all about I enjoying his chance at a redo on what was his "normal" part of life, but super-paranoid and somewhat neurotic about the potential for some time traveler to ruin his life again.

----------


## Mataza

> Tim becomes both all about I enjoying his chance at a redo on what was his "normal" part of life, but super-paranoid and somewhat neurotic about the potential for some time traveler to ruin his life again.


Hey, that sounds great! But i think Tim should be a more grounded character. Even in his Red Robin days he was still very much trying to have a normal life, even if he questioned that a lot. I think he needed normalcy in his life. If he is going to always be seeing life through the lenses of someone that lost everything and is afraid of losing it again, then i doubt he can actually have a normal life.

I think he should get his old memories back, and reality should be rewriten like it happened with superman reborn. To acomodate the new status quo. Maybe bring his mother back!  Maybe give him a sister. Or extend his family even more, like he has family in england, family that had distanced itself from Jack, who was always a bit obsessed with money. Rebirth didnt just fix superman, it improved him in every way! It could do the same for this character and many others.

Cheers!

----------


## KrustyKid

> And as things stand how should one go about fixing Tim and Dick?


I don't think either can be completely fixed. Tim just needs a solid direction, preferably one that keeps him grounded, and Dick was doing great with all the stuff that was going on in 'Grayson'. I really feel they should have stuck with that formula.

----------


## The Whovian

If DC gave Tim a new solo book, who would you want for the creative team? 

I would choose Brubaker and Jason Fabok. I love how great Bru writes street characters like DD and Cap. And Fabok is a dynamic artist. I would love to see these two pair up on a Red Robin book.

----------


## KrustyKid

> If DC gave Tim a new solo book, who would you want for the creative team? 
> 
> I would choose Brubaker and Jason Fabok. I love how great Bru writes street characters like DD and Cap. And Fabok is a dynamic artist. I would love to see these two pair up on a Red Robin book.


For me all of that would be dependent on what direction they would be going with the character. Art can really set a mood for a certain type of story, or series.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Dixon and To.

----------


## josai21

> Dixon and To.


My only concern about Dixon is whether he can write the adult Tim we have today as opposed to the younger, wide-eyed Tim of the early Robin series.

Thats a minor concern though. Dixon is my first choice for a Red Robin series.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think either can be completely fixed. Tim just needs a solid direction, preferably one that keeps him grounded, and Dick was doing great with all the stuff that was going on in 'Grayson'. I really feel they should have stuck with that formula.


Seeley tried to compromise by having Dick go on globe trotting adventures and protect Bludhaven how effective was it? Tynion kind went that way by having Tim decide he needs help instead of going around planning to turn Gotham into a police state.

----------


## Pohzee

Well, Tynion said on Twitter that he's using two characters from 'Tec in an unannounced series. Given that Orphan is off the table for the Outsiders and Azreal is off the table for JL: Oddessy, and given Tynion's _interest_ in Tim, and also that Tynion has left the Bat-Office, it is likely more likely than ever that Tim and Steph will be in a new YJ book.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, Tynion said on Twitter that he's using two characters from 'Tec in an unannounced series. Given that Orphan is off the table for the Outsiders and Azreal is off the table for JL: Oddessy, and given Tynion's _interest_ in Tim, and also that Tynion has left the Bat-Office, it is likely more likely than ever that Tim and Steph will be in a new YJ book.


Sounds prospective and hopefully without the over-bloated cast in Detective Comics Tim and Stephanie if it is them will finally get the room they need to grow and develop and redeem their fallen reputations. Some are even hating on Tim's issues for this.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Seeley tried to compromise by having Dick go on globe trotting adventures and protect Bludhaven how effective was it? Tynion kind went that way by having Tim decide he needs help instead of going around planning to turn Gotham into a police state.


In Dick's case, since going back to Nightwing his direction hasn't been as strong as when he was strictly doing the whole spy gig. It was something different, and fresh for his character. With Tim, well going to Bruce for help is a good start.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Sounds prospective and *hopefully without the over-bloated cast* in Detective Comics Tim and Stephanie if it is them will finally get the room they need to grow and develop and redeem their fallen reputations. Some are even hating on Tim's issues for this.


This. If the two do end up in another team setting together, I'm hoping there are no more than five members to start.

----------


## josai21

> This. If the two do end up in another team setting together, I'm hoping there are no more than five members to start.


My ideal first Young Justice storyline?

Tim, Stephanie, Cassie (Wondergirl), and Bart searching for Connor throughout time.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> In Dick's case, since going back to Nightwing his direction hasn't been as strong as when he was strictly doing the whole spy gig. It was something different, and fresh for his character. With Tim, well going to Bruce for help is a good start.


Well that was bad maybe it would have been for the better if Dick became Nightwing again but stayed in Spyral. It's always a good start to admit you have a problem and to know what it is




> This. If the two do end up in another team setting together, I'm hoping there are no more than five members to start.


Detective Comics could have benefited from limiting the members to five Cass, Stephanie, Clayface, Tim, and most importantly Bruce. And who should be in Tynion's book apart from probably Tim and Stephanie?

----------


## Assam

> Well, Tynion said on Twitter that he's using two characters from 'Tec in an unannounced series. Given that Orphan is off the table for the Outsiders and Azreal is off the table for JL: Oddessy, and given Tynion's _interest_ in Tim, and also that Tynion has left the Bat-Office, it is likely more likely than ever that Tim and Steph will be in a new YJ book.


Yeah, it seems pretty clear at this point. I was definitely wrong about saying Steph wouldn't be in this (although I wish I wasn't) and I wish I hadn't been right about Tynion writing it. 




> Sounds prospective and hopefully without the over-bloated cast in Detective Comics Tim and Stephanie if it is them will finally get the room they need to grow and develop and redeem their fallen reputations. Some are even hating on Tim's issues for this.


Okay but like 1) Tynion would also need to change course completely for both characters and 2) 'Tec has never had more than 6 main characters. Even with the last two arcs, FotB had JPV and Luke completely out of focus and so far the only Knights to appear in BE have been Bruce, Cass, Kate, Luke, JPV and Tim, again, six characters. And for reasons I'l explain below, there are going to be at least 6 members of YJ. 




> This. If the two do end up in another team setting together, I'm hoping there are no more than five members to start.


Well at the _very_ start I could see it being Tim, Steph and a freshly freed from the Speed Force Bart, with Cassie and Kon joining in the first storyline. However, I highly doubt they'll be the only members. If it was just the YJ4? Yeah okay, it's getting the band back together. But by adding in Steph, you have a five member team of all white kids, both girls being blonde haired and blue eyed. Compare _that_ to the upcoming Outsiders, Titans, Teen Titans and JLO teams and it kinda sticks out like a very pale thumb. Hence why I imagine the currently limboed Jaime and/or Jackson will be coming in very early as well.

----------


## The Whovian

> My only concern about Dixon is whether he can write the adult Tim we have today as opposed to the younger, wide-eyed Tim of the early Robin series.
> 
> Thats a minor concern though. Dixon is my first choice for a Red Robin series.


Dixon wrote a great Nightwing run, so I have no doubt he could do the same for an adult Tim




> Well, Tynion said on Twitter that he's using two characters from 'Tec in an unannounced series. Given that Orphan is off the table for the Outsiders and Azreal is off the table for JL: Oddessy, and given Tynion's _interest_ in Tim, and also that Tynion has left the Bat-Office, it is likely more likely than ever that Tim and Steph will be in a new YJ book.


I would rather see Tim and Steph in their own book. Kind of a team up book.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, it seems pretty clear at this point. I was definitely wrong about saying Steph wouldn't be in this (although I wish I wasn't) and I wish I hadn't been right about Tynion writing it.


Even though ideally Chuck Dixon or Bryan Q. Miller should be the ideal choice I would say it's better than nothing at this point.






> Okay but like 1) Tynion would also need to change course completely for both characters and 2) 'Tec has never had more than 6 main characters. Even with the last two arcs, FotB had JPV and Luke completely out of focus and so far the only Knights to appear in BE have been Bruce, Cass, Kate, Luke, JPV and Tim, again, six characters. And for reasons I'l explain below, there are going to be at least 6 members of YJ.
> 
> Well at the _very_ start I could see it being Tim, Steph and a freshly freed from the Speed Force Bart, with Cassie and Kon joining in the first storyline. However, I highly doubt they'll be the only members. If it was just the YJ4? Yeah okay, it's getting the band back together. But by adding in Steph, you have a five member team of all white kids, both girls being blonde haired and blue eyed. Compare _that_ to the upcoming Outsiders, Titans, Teen Titans and JLO teams and it kinda sticks out like a very pale thumb. Hence why I imagine the currently limboed Jaime and/or Jackson will be coming in very early as well.


And keeping it at six should be more manageable then?

----------


## Assam

> Even though ideally Chuck Dixon or Bryan Q. Miller should be the ideal choice I would say it's better than nothing at this point.


Dixon wold be FAR worse than Tynion from where I stand and I'm not a particularly big fan of Miller, even if there was _any_ chance of him coming back to comics. 




> And keeping it at six should be more manageable then?


It's possible he'll improve, but at no point has he shown the ability to manage a six-member cast well.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Dixon wold be FAR worse than Tynion from where I stand and I'm not a particularly big fan of Miller, even if there was _any_ chance of him coming back to comics. 
> 
> It's possible he'll improve, but at no point has he shown the ability to manage a six-member cast well.


Dixon defined Tim and Stephanie for the better part of their existence how could he be a bad choice? I enjoyed Miller's work on his Batgirl run. So what then should Tynion just keep it to five then?

----------


## Assam

> Dixon defined Tim and Stephanie for the better part of their existence how could he be a bad choice?


I am perfectly capable of separating a creator from their work. But I'd also _never_ financially support someone who holds the views that Dixon or anyone similar does. 




> So what then should Tynion just keep it to five then?


Nope. Just hoping it's good with 6+.

----------


## Frontier

Maybe they should bring in Greg Weisman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I am perfectly capable of separating a creator from their work. But I'd also _never_ financially support someone who holds the views that Dixon or anyone similar does.


Ah yes his conservative views offend you. Still if he's Tim and Stephanie's best choice for fixing them I say why not? Unless someone can drag in Christopher Yost again.





> Nope. Just hoping it's good with 6+.


Yeah and aside from Tim and Stephanie Tynion will be getting new toys to play with hopefully it'll improve his writing somehow.

----------


## josai21

> I am perfectly capable of separating a creator from their work. But I'd also _never_ financially support someone who holds the views that Dixon or anyone similar does. 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Eh, based on your previous racist comment that an all white team would basically be untenable, I'd say you're not capable of separating a creator from their work. Which is funny considering practically every conservative has to do so to enjoy movies put out by Hollywood which is highly liberal (Not saying thats a negative thing, just that most people are capable of enjoying a story without bringing politics into it).

Don't let the politics of division prevent you from enjoying good writing. At the end of the day, I highly disagree with Dixon's political views, but he's a fellow human being before he is someone who posits disagreeable (imo) political views. I can support his excellent writing because I consider him to be a human being first. 

Sorry if this post is divisive, I just strongly encourage everyone to look past politics and seek unity...even with those we disagree with.

----------


## Assam

> Eh, based on your previous racist comment that an all white team would basically be untenable


There was nothing racist about my comment, nor is that what I said. I was merely pointing out that DC's upcoming teams are otherwise quite diverse and this line-up would seem regressive by comparison. 




> I'd say you're not capable of separating a creator from their work.


_Baby Driver_  was one of my favorite movies from 2017. Do I regret paying to see it following the revelations regarding Kevin Spacey's actions? Yes. Do I love the movie any less? No. 




> Sorry if this post is divisive, I just strongly encourage everyone to look past politics and seek unity...even with those we disagree with.


Were we not in a political climate where people were saying this exact thing regarding literal Nazis (which Dixon is of course not, although he is an associate of at least one), I may agree with you.

----------


## Pohzee

The idea of restoring the YJ4 and trying to recapture that group seems about as appealing to me as Abnett's Titans. Between this and 'Tec, it doesn't seem like Tim has a way forward.

----------


## Frontier

> Ah yes his conservative views offend you. Still if he's Tim and Stephanie's best choice for fixing them I say why not? Unless someone can drag in Christopher Yost again.


I'd be down for a Chris Yost _Young Justice_  :Smile: .

----------


## TheCape

> The idea of restoring the YJ4 and trying to recapture that group seems about as appealing to me as Abnett's Titans. Between this and 'Tec, it doesn't seem like Tim has a way forward.


Wich is probably the case for most of the characthers introduced in the 90s sadly.

----------


## Assam

> I'd be down for a Chris Yost _Young Justice_ .


Man that would be good. 




> Wich is probsbly.the case for most of the characthers introduced in the 90s sadly.


Cass actually seems to have the leg up on Tim and Steph at the moment. She's getting a new, highly talented writer whose a big fan of her's and a fresh team of characters to hang out with, with Tynion possibly finishing his run by delivering some of the things he knows the fans want with her, while Tim and Steph are stuck with Tynion, neither of whom he's managed to write well, in what will probably be a book full of average to below average rehashes of Johns' run (which he's said is what he loves most). 

Hopefully Williamson also uses Bart in Flash so he can finally get good stories for the first time since his solo ended (not counting his Flashpoint mini)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'd be down for a Chris Yost _Young Justice_ .


If they can drag him away from Marvel Studios somehow.

----------


## TheCape

> Man that would be good. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cass actually seems to have the leg up on Tim and Steph at the moment. She's getting a new, highly talented writer whose a big fan of her's and a fresh team of characters to hang out with, with Tynion possibly finishing his run by delivering some of the things he knows the fans want with her, while Tim and Steph are stuck with Tynion, neither of whom he's managed to write well, in what will probably be a book full of average to below average rehashes of Johns' run (which he's said is what he loves most). 
> 
> Hopefully Williamson also uses Bart in Flash so he can finally get good stories for the first time since his solo ended (not counting his Flashpoint mini)


Probably, she and Clayface were the most liked parts of Tynion's Tec, but i don't really have much faith on the Outsiders, but i might be surprised.

----------


## Assam

> but i don't really have much faith on the Outsiders, but i might be surprised.


Please don't tell me it's just because Duke is in it. I think Hill might be on the one to get me on board with his character.

----------


## TheCape

I only see 3 possible ways of saving Tim's characther:

1. He goes back to be the Spider-Man of the bat-family, go to college, get his suppotting cast back (including his parents) and the run can end with him retiring.

2. They can make him a sort of private detective, in a more noir style of book, i don't like the idea of defining him as the "Detective Robin" but hey, none of the batbooks are really touching the genre right now and Tim always enjoyed resolving mysteries, so there is that.

3. The last one is to make him a constant supporting characther in any of the batbooks and give some time for people to warm up to him again.

----------


## TheCape

> Please don't tell me it's just because Duke is in it. I think Hill might be on the one to get me on board with his character.


No, is because i always tried to get into every incarnation of then and they bore me to death, maybe Hill can change my mind thougth. As for Duke, i now see him as the Jacob Taylor (Mass Effect 2 for those curious) of the batfamily, he plays the straigth man in the group that feels a bit out of his detph with this people but his personality isn't terribly fascinating for me, so i' just indiferent to him for the most part (hell i think that i'm one of the few Tim fans that wasn't bothered by his existence).

----------


## CPSparkles

> I only see 3 possible ways of saving Tim's characther:
> 
> 1. He goes back to be the Spider-Man of the bat-family, go to college, get his suppotting cast back (including his parents) and the run can end with him retiring.
> 
> 2. They can make him a sort of private detective, in a more noir style of book, i don't like the idea of defining him as the "Detective Robin" but hey, none of the batbooks are really touching the genre right now and Tim always enjoyed resolving mysteries, so there is that.
> 
> 3. The last one is to make him a constant supporting characther in any of the batbooks and give some time for people to warm up to him again.


I like the idea of detective Tim. If Duke is joining the Outsiders that leaves the space open for a detective focused bat book. Tim can easily fill it.

----------


## Assam

> No, is because i always tried to get into every incarnation of then and they bore me to death


I mean I don't disagree with you. What I read of Winnick's run I didn't care for, Dixon's run was average at best and everything that followed was just *bleh.* I've started looking into the original run and while it isn't bad at all, it also isn't particularly gripping to me. 

But this is a new great writer, a new team and we don't know what his unique spin on the team will be. 




> As for Duke, i now see him as the Jacob Taylor (Mass Effect 2 for those curious) of the batfamily, he plays the straigth man in the group that feels a bit out of his detph with this people but his personality isn't terribly fascinating for me, so i' just indiferent to him for the most part


Like most things these days, fanfics have used Duke better in the role of the newbie than the actual comics have. Cause, you know, they actually let him interact with the Family. Hopefully Hill will do interesting stuff with him and his relationship to Cass.

----------


## TheCape

> I like the idea of detective Tim. If Duke is joining the Outsiders that leaves the space open for a detective focused bat book. Tim can easily fill it.


Honestly, i would be glad if book can be in a solo, when he doesn't have to play "The Leader" or "Smart Guy" of the group him being a private investogator would fit and it would give him the chance to explore more about him as a person IMO, something that i find sorely lacking on the last few years, even when Tynion got some of his characther right.

----------


## TheCape

> I mean I don't disagree with you. What I read of Winnick's run I didn't care for, Dixon's run was average at best and everything that followed was just *bleh.* I've started looking into the original run and while it isn't bad at all, it also isn't particularly gripping to me. 
> 
> But this is a new great writer, a new team and we don't know what his unique spin on the team will be. 
> 
> 
> 
> Like most things these days, fanfics have used Duke better in the role of the newbie than the actual comics have. Cause, you know, they actually let him interact with the Family. Hopefully Hill will do interesting stuff with him and his relationship to Cass.


Don't misundertand me, i hope that i'm wrong, by all means i want it too suceed, but i don't know anything about Hill's writting, so i can't be sure, but the book is still unnanouced, i would give it a fair chance like everything that DC has pull out since 2011  :Smile: .

As for Duke, yeah that role fits better, maybe they should have spend more time doing that instead of speaking us about how important his role was (did he do anything important on Metal by the way?).

----------


## AlvinDraper

you know, it makes me sad that we don't even know if Tim is gonna be in one book...he was such a popular character and now...he's basically the forgotten Robin! Ugh, Tim should change and soon before he goes to limbo just like Bart, Cassie, Kon, Mia, Cissie...

----------


## The Whovian

> you know, it makes me sad that we don't even know if Tim is gonna be in one book...he was such a popular character and now...he's basically the forgotten Robin! Ugh, Tim should change and soon before he goes to limbo just like Bart, Cassie, Kon, Mia, Cissie...


This is the biggest negative that came out of New 52, but which I hope they rectify in Rebirth. Geoff Johns' Teen Titans was one of the best series ever, and it was because of the relationships, especially between Tim and Kon. 

In my dream world, DC gives Tim and Steph their own book, Cass gets her own book with a new codename and Kon, Cassie, Miss Martian and Connor Hawke return, as does Bart and they all join a new Titans series.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> This is the biggest negative that came out of New 52, but which I hope they rectify in Rebirth. Geoff Johns' Teen Titans was one of the best series ever, and it was because of the relationships, especially between Tim and Kon. 
> 
> In my dream world, DC gives Tim and Steph their own book, Cass gets her own book with a new codename and Kon, Cassie, Miss Martian and Connor Hawke return, as does Bart and they all join a new Titans series.


Well, I would love to live in this dream world!

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> My only concern about Dixon is whether he can write the adult Tim we have today as opposed to the younger, wide-eyed Tim of the early Robin series.
> 
> Thats a minor concern though. Dixon is my first choice for a Red Robin series.


He's 16 again, so not really an adult even though he's a genius.

----------


## Aahz

> My only concern about Dixon is whether he can write the adult Tim we have today as opposed to the younger, wide-eyed Tim of the early Robin series.


Since we allread have two adult robins, it mighty actually better to keep Tim as Teenager.

----------


## Armor of God

I dont think Dixon would be a good match now. He's struggling to make Bane interesting in Conquest even though he created him, weird considering how good his previous Bane one shots and mini were. Ironically it was Batman and Catwoman who shined in that book. That said Tynion is a black hole that Tim and Steph need to escape from fast.

----------


## dietrich

> you know, it makes me sad that we don't even know if Tim is gonna be in one book...he was such a popular character and now...he's basically the forgotten Robin! Ugh, Tim should change and soon before he goes to limbo just like Bart, Cassie, Kon, Mia, Cissie...


I believe he will Tynion hinted as much on his twitter.

----------


## Restingvoice

> you know, it makes me sad that we don't even know if Tim is gonna be in one book...he was such a popular character and now...he's basically the forgotten Robin! Ugh, Tim should change and soon before he goes to limbo just like Bart, Cassie, Kon, Mia, Cissie...


They will need to define what Red Robin is first. Dick has the benefit of being the first to graduate, Jason has a unique return, and both have classic, successful, definitive or critically acclaimed run like Judas Contract, Under the Red Hood, Arkham Knight, Grayson, Dixon's Nightwing, Morrison's Batman and Robin, Red Hood and The Outlaws and so on. Of course, in Dick's thread people are talking about how his unique run are when he's not Nightwing, but that's another matter.

Most people I heard talking about Tim talks about his Teen Titans and Young Justice days or A Lonely Place of Dying and Dixon's Robin, but beyond fighting Ra's al Ghul with all of his friends, the TimTam ship, the TimKon ship, and Marcus To's pretty art I rarely heard about his Red Robin adventure. They seem more focused on his looks and relationships than the story.

DC seems to be more interested in developing Damian and Snyder specifically is more interested in developing Duke. As a bystander I have to agree Damian's bratty personality and Duke's superpower stand out more. What stands about about Tim is his genius. The look of him using wrist hologram during Robin War and Eternal, plus that costume, only Tim has that, but based on what I've heard that's not what his fans are looking for.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They will need to define what Red Robin is first. Dick has the benefit of being the first to graduate, Jason has a unique return, and both have classic, successful, definitive or critically acclaimed run like Judas Contract, Under the Red Hood, Arkham Knight, Grayson, Dixon's Nightwing, Morrison's Batman and Robin, Red Hood and The Outlaws and so on. Of course, in Dick's thread people are talking about how his unique run are when he's not Nightwing, but that's another matter.
> 
> Most people I heard talking about Tim talks about his Teen Titans and Young Justice days or A Lonely Place of Dying and Dixon's Robin, but beyond fighting Ra's al Ghul with all of his friends, the TimTam ship, the TimKon ship, and Marcus To's pretty art I rarely heard about his Red Robin adventure. They seem more focused on his looks and relationships than the story.
> 
> DC seems to be more interested in developing Damian and Snyder specifically is more interested in developing Duke. As a bystander I have to agree Damian's bratty personality and Duke's superpower stand out more. What stands about about Tim is his genius. The look of him using wrist hologram during Robin War and Eternal, plus that costume, only Tim has that, but based on what I've heard that's not what his fans are looking for.


As far as intellect is concerned that's not the problems fans just take issue with how he is written when he uses his intellect some generally prefer it if he is written to be more of a detective than the super hacker who appeared later in the New 52. That's kind of what's missing from him.

----------


## josai21

> As far as intellect is concerned that's not the problems fans just take issue with how he is written when he uses his intellect some generally prefer it if he is written to be more of a detective than the super hacker who appeared later in the New 52. That's kind of what's missing from him.


This.

Tim's intelligence is not so much donatello/tech, its tactical/strategy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> This.
> 
> Tim's intelligence is not so much donatello/tech, its tactical/strategy.


Tynion did try that though he went a little overboard by having Tim try to turn Gotham into a police state but he might step back from for a while.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tynion did try that though he went a little overboard by having Tim try to turn Gotham into a police state but he might step back from for a while.


With Tim seemingly pushing to having a better state of mind, this seems likely

----------


## The Dying Detective

> With Tim seemingly pushing to having a better state of mind, this seems likely


If Tynion plans to take Tim and Stephanie with him I say it's for the best because if anyone needs time away from Gotham it's them. And that way Tim can finally get some balance.

----------


## king81992

> With Tim seemingly pushing to having a better state of mind, this seems likely


Getting turned into OMAC is not going to be good for Tim's mental state.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...38908190769152

I wonder what this could mean...

----------


## The Whovian

> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...38908190769152
> 
> I wonder what this could mean...


Hopefully, it's a new solo book starring Tim. Please DC

----------


## Assam

> Hopefully, it's a new solo book starring Tim. Please DC


I don't think so. 

If I had to guess, Tim and Steph will be there alongside Cass and Duke in Hill's 'Tec arc. From there, he'll keep Cass and Duke for Outsiders while handing Tim and Steph back to Tynion for YJ.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't think so. 
> 
> If I had to guess, Tim and Steph will be there alongside Cass and Duke in Hill's 'Tec arc. From there, he'll keep Cass and Duke for Outsiders while handing Tim and Steph back to Tynion for YJ.


That's what I would assume as well. 

Hopefully Hill won't take any influence from the mass-hacking control freak Tim that Tynion's pioneered  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think so. 
> 
> If I had to guess, Tim and Steph will be there alongside Cass and Duke in Hill's 'Tec arc. From there, he'll keep Cass and Duke for Outsiders while handing Tim and Steph back to Tynion for YJ.


You seem pretty sure Tim and Stephanie will be taken by Tynion once Hill's run is done.

----------


## KrustyKid

New-52 RR,

tumblr_p64r5gzkiW1qkjik5o1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

We shall call this the stare;

cdeb8bd6bdc8d9e24923b93463f430ec.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> We shall call this the stare;
> 
> cdeb8bd6bdc8d9e24923b93463f430ec.jpg


The bat-glare is the stuff of legends.

----------


## KrustyKid

It certainly is! One of Bruce's ultimate weapons, lol

----------


## KrustyKid

Bat boys getting the band going,

9ac5f55a533938f728e3ef93cd00c6ad.jpg

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_nav0e5bwz31trs3dpo1_1280.jpg

Is difficult to get used to it  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_n9pfm05sFO1thaxuio1_500.jpg
tumblr_n9pfm05sFO1thaxuio2_500.jpg

Probably happened at some point  :Big Grin: .

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_nyvxw4VQkg1rgxa8wo1_1280.jpg

I kind of liked this scene.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Attachment 64656
> 
> Is difficult to get used to it


Lol, love that scene

----------


## KrustyKid

853f9e90195e4bd848dc771787f61b94.jpg

Rebirth RR

----------


## KrustyKid

Unthernet Tim

tumblr_p7c9nvwVlE1wyv4uzo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Mataza

> Ethernet Tim
> 
> tumblr_p7c9nvwVlE1wyv4uzo1_1280.jpg


I loved the Unthernet. The guy that wrote it is definitely crazy!

----------


## KrustyKid

> I loved the Unthernet. The guy that wrote it is definitely crazy!


Yah, that issue was wildly out there. In a good way

----------


## The Dying Detective

It seems in the latest issue of Batman because Booster Godl went back in time to stop the Waynes from being killed Tim became an IT employee.

----------


## TheCape

> It seems in the latest issue of Batman because Booster Godl went back in time to stop the Waynes from being killed Tim became an IT employee.


Sounds fitting, i always thougth that Tim would prefer a job when sits around all day.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sounds fitting, i always thougth that Tim would preferba job when sits around all day.


Well Tim always did want a normal life anyway.

----------


## KrustyKid

Spoiler and Robin

71a852a97e127596fb66c15484a46ae5--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Spoiler and Robin
> 
> 71a852a97e127596fb66c15484a46ae5--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg


Awww, cute!!!

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_p2i7nwHCDW1u99vu7o1_540.jpg
tumblr_p2i7nwHCDW1u99vu7o2_540.jpg
I think than this is the most absurd thing that Tim has ever done. Also "Tim yes"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_p4s9tj9nvZ1wxnx8eo1_1280-1.jpg
Tim and Cass combo.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_nywnc3tiMM1sfgyew_540.jpg
Dick's honest opinion about Tim's crime-fighting skill  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Attachment 64930
> Attachment 64931
> I think than this is the most absurd thing that Tim has ever done. Also "Tim yes" .


Lol, that definitely ranks up there

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Attachment 64937
> Dick's honest opinion about his Tim's crime-fighting skill


Tim's new identity...the Red Ferret!!

----------


## TheCape

> Tim's new identity...the Red Ferret!!


Evil beware!!  :Big Grin: .

----------


## KrustyKid

Another one for the robin boys;

tumblr_p7jhfkP2lf1qllu80o1_1280.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## KrustyKid

> Robins


Lol, Damian is so tiny there

----------


## TheCape

> Lol, Damian is so tiny there


And ready to stab Tim apparently  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> And ready to stab Tim apparently


Hahaha, I didn't even notice that

----------


## CPSparkles

Here's one where's everyone is safe, the family is happy and together

----------


## CPSparkles

> Hahaha, I didn't even notice that


I didn't notice either

----------


## KrustyKid

> Here's one where's everyone is safe, the family is happy and together


My man Alfred kickin' it at the top. Don't worry Damian, that height will eventually kick in.

----------


## Mataza

> Attachment 64932
> Tim and Cass combo.


Wait, wheres that from? Looks pretty great, brutal beatdown.

----------


## TheCape

> Wait, wheres that from? Looks pretty great, brutal beatdown.


I think that is exclusive art from a trade of the NML (No Man's Land) storyline.

----------


## KrustyKid

Not a bad design;

5a81fd9aeb7291f147b7394d11dae09f.jpg

----------


## K. Jones

> Not a bad design;
> 
> 5a81fd9aeb7291f147b7394d11dae09f.jpg


So good! I was posting to gleek out a little at that Bat-family cheer squad pyramid and how it featured the Batgirls as actual Batgirls, and Tim in his V.R. undernet Redwing costume, but yeah, I'd read that Tim. Such a nice fusion of his To-revised Red Robin look, his classic look, his all-red OYL look, and even maybe a hint of his New 52 look.

----------


## scary harpy

> Not a bad design;
> 
> Attachment 65071





> So good! I was posting to gleek out a little at that Bat-family cheer squad pyramid and how it featured the Batgirls as actual Batgirls, and Tim in his V.R. undernet Redwing costume, but yeah, I'd read that Tim. Such a nice fusion of his To-revised Red Robin look, his classic look, his all-red OYL look, and even maybe a hint of his New 52 look.


Good design.

I hope he get's a good name to go with it.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Not a bad design;
> 
> Attachment 65071


I can dig it, better than the armor thing he's got going on now.

----------


## scary harpy

I repeatedly seen Tim associated with the color yellow (while Richard's blue, Jason's red, Barbara's purple, etcetera).

I know we were supposed to find the significance of this...I don't know if we did. (Batman's Color Wheel for his allies.)

Should this color be reflected in his costume? It would differentiate him from other Robins.

----------


## Mataza

His colors should be gold and black.
red_robin_logo_by_mr_droy-d5opu3s.png

Sadly that was taken by "the signal". And is also used by batman and batgirl 2.0, so id like to see if they could work with white/silver and/or black.

----------


## millernumber1

> I repeatedly seen Tim associated with the color yellow (while Richard's blue, Jason's red, Barbara's purple, etcetera).
> 
> I know we were supposed to find the significance of this...I don't know if we did. (Batman's Color Wheel for his allies.)
> 
> Should this color be reflected in his costume? It would differentiate him from other Robins.


I was so disappointed that Snyder just kind of let the color wheel concept slide. It was cool, but apparently he didn't put enough thought into it (or didn't know how to word vomit it out). The one thing from that backup feature that I really liked.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I was so disappointed that Snyder just kind of let the color wheel concept slide. It was cool, but apparently he didn't put enough thought into it (or didn't know how to word vomit it out). The one thing from that backup feature that I really liked.


I think white should be Tim's colour because he is the most chivalrous member of the Batfamily.

----------


## TheCape

Eh, i don't put much importance on colors, they rarely mean anything, people like to relate Dick with hope and optimist=blue, but he isn't really one (he is more like a realist), even when people project that idea on him in and out of universe. So i don't think that Tim having yellow mean much, besides as much as i love Power Rangers, i don't want to see something like that on Gotham  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> id like to see if they could work with white/silver and/or black.


I know most of them wear black of some kind, but Cass already has it covered as far as being the dominant color goes. And while Luke is going to limbo, the Batwings have silver covered. 

White would definitely be different though. Maybe sticking with the bird theme he could become The Pelican Man, after receiving training from Jorge Gonzalez of course. (I swear, if any of you actually get that reference...) 




> I think white should be Tim's colour because he is the most chivalrous member of the Batfamily.


Leaving aside that that's about as true as Tynion's belief that Tim is the heart of the BatFamily, I forget, were you the one who suggested Tim take over as Knight? Because that's still a really bad idea. Although I wouldn't totally be against him becoming the new Squire.

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, i wouldn't call Tim chilvarous at all, a noble man at then end of the day, but not chilvarous. Also sticking him to the bird theme could work, Dick can keep the Robin Hood theme for himself considering than that was the original idea  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Leaving aside that that's about as true as Tynion's belief that Tim is the heart of the BatFamily, I forget, were you the one who suggested Tim take over as Knight? Because that's still a really bad idea. Although I wouldn't totally be against him becoming the new Squire.


I do sort of recall wanting Tim to be the new Knight and I think I dismissed it because it belonged to someone else I think he should change his name to White Knight since Red Robin is uncreative and polarising in spite of it being used by Dick in Kingdom Come.

----------


## scary harpy

> I was so disappointed that Snyder just kind of let the color wheel concept slide. It was cool, but apparently he didn't put enough thought into it (or didn't know how to word vomit it out). The one thing from that backup feature that I really liked.


So that got dropped? great.

Very disappointed.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm glad it got dropped. Sounds like an unnecessary way to categorize the Robins into neat little boxes when their skills and personalities overlap because they studied under the same person. They already label them as the sexy/charming one or the heart, the angry one or the fist, the smart geeky one or the brain, and the bratty demon child one. It's like branding for band members. Sexy spice, posh spice and all that.

----------


## Mataza

> Leaving aside that that's about as true as Tynion's belief that Tim is the heart of the BatFamily


That does fit him. From inception he was the one that reunited Bruce and Dick, bought steph into the fold, kept in touch with cass when they threw her off a bridge, was there when dick and barbara started talking again, was Azraels robin, had a good relationship with Alfred, knows gordon better than most. While i feel that calling him the heart is a bit much, he does have a tangible relationship with every single character in it. And if i remember correctly, him wanting Batman to have support has been there from the start.
Also wasnt his the idea of starting Batman Inc.? i remember seeing a panel where that was revealed.

----------


## TheCape

> That does fit him. From inception he was the one that reunited Bruce and Dick, bought steph into the fold, kept in touch with cass when they threw her off a bridge, was there when dick and barbara started talking again, was Azraels robin, had a good relationship with Alfred, knows gordon better than most. While i feel that calling him the heart is a bit much, he does have a tangible relationship with every single character in it. And if i remember correctly, him wanting Batman to have support has been there from the start.
> Also wasnt his the idea of starting Batman Inc.? i remember seeing a panel where that was revealed.


I don't remenber Tim having much relation with Gordon better than any other Robin. As for Batman Inc, he started developing the Neo Knights idea (wich was basically a mini Batman Inc), before Bruce's "death",  if i remenber correctly and he joked with Bruce about that after he came back.

----------


## Mataza

Gordon wanted in, especially when he saw Tim was hurting. Tim didnt let him. They werent friends, but Gordon did trust him, and watched him grow.

Tims first solo act on gotham was taking on the joker, and Gordon was one of his closest allies there.

I will agree that there wasnt much to it, but its something. The only person i dont see a connection at all with is Kate, and probably Duke.

----------


## CPSparkles

Tim isn't chivalrous especially not in the gallant Knight way that's been implied here
He can be quite sexist, he can be underhanded, he's often inconsiderate. Tim is a good guy with good intentions but he isn't what I wouldn't call a noble warrior [stuff like poisoning an opponent before hand is clever but it's hardly noble].

Old Tim wasn't chivalrous.

I don't know what's canon when it comes to Tim but Current Tim is anything but chivalrous.

I like the Red Robin logo and I've made peace with the name.

I don't think DC should change his name or logo unless they are dedicated to giving the character a serious overhaul or fix.

Constant tinkering with a characters name, costume etc isn't a good thing.

----------


## scary harpy

> I like the Red Robin logo and I've made peace with the name.
> 
> I don't think DC should change his name or logo unless they are dedicated to giving the character a serious overhaul or fix.
> 
> Constant tinkering with a characters name, costume etc isn't a good thing.


I have not made peace with the name Red Robin (yuck not yum).

I want DC dedicated to giving Tim a serious overhaul or fix.

I fell tinkering could lead to improvements. (But I've been wrong before.)

----------


## Mataza

> Tim isn't chivalrous especially not in the gallant Knight way that's been implied here


He has the noblest origin in the batfamily and he found himself more than once getting beaten up just because of his tendency to be a gentleman. But if anyone is chivalrous that would be Dick.




> He can be quite sexist


I dont remember him ever stating that someone was less capable just because they were a woman. Could you provide scans?




> he can be underhanded


This is true.




> he's often inconsiderate.


And this is something he developed as he grew up.




> Constant tinkering with a characters name, costume etc isn't a good thing.


Yeah i agree, but this is something that should have come a long time ago.

----------


## TheCape

Tim sexims is less about not seeing women as capable and more that he could do some weird assumptions about girls that in hindsight are kind of sexist this days, is pretty much a product of his time.

----------


## KrustyKid

tumblr_p0auoli5VC1qkx0x5o1_1280.jpg

ninja Tim and Damian

----------


## Vinsanity

I haven't posted in this thread in a while but here are some things I see wrong with Tim reading from Post Crisis to now.

- He's too bland compared to Jason, Damian, and Dick. They all have striking personalities. Tim not so much.
- There isn't much conflict with him compared to other characters
- Red Robin? That name needs to change.
- He became too much like Batman when he was RR.

What I would like to see in Tim (I know people won't agree)
- He is cocky and arrogant because he's smart but not Damian level. 
- Needs to get away from Batman for a while.
- Needs to loosen up as a character.

I would love for him to have a solo as a different hero in another country but an exotic street level that Dick and Bruce don't do.

----------


## Assam

> - He's too bland compared to Jason, Damian, and* Dick*. They all have striking personalities. Tim not so much.


Will never understand this mentality. Tim is no more bland than Dick and they're both on the same level of blandness as Duke. They all have unique personality traits and relationships that distinguish themselves from one another, I'm a big Tim fan while not a fan of Dick after all, but none of them exactly have personalities  that *pop.*




> There isn't much conflict with him compared to other characters


Both of his solo books and YJ would beg to differ. 




> He became too much like Batman when he was RR.


I think you might have missed the point of Red Robin. Tim had been becoming more like Batman since Identity Crisis and the years that followed where Tim lost nearly every single important person in his life because the current regime is awful and has never understood the appeal of the character. Yost's run took this to the extreme, Tim losing himself in his obsession and becoming a near-clone of Bruce, but eventually realizing how that was a _bad_ thing and turning himself around. 




> He is cocky and arrogant because he's smart but not Damian level.


Tim really shouldn't be _that_ arrogant, just mildly so, and _both_ of these kids need a serious intelligence downgrade. I'm a lifelong comic reader who can accept some crazy stuff, but Tim's self-healing buildings and Damian's multiple PHD's are things I just can't take seriously.

----------


## Badou

I really have no idea what they should do with Tim. I used to really like Tim, as he was te Robin I grew up with, and I will forever be appreciative of him for modernizing the identity, but I don't really see how they can walk his character back to something that would be more grounded or different to what he has become. Now he is some super genius Batman that feels so over the top at times where I don't know where he fits in anymore. 

The Tim I liked was the one that was more like Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimate Spider-man was a thing. The things that Tim has that make him unique is that he has his parents, had a fairly normal childhood, and is grounded in a way that Dick, Jason or Damian can never be. You can do actual stories where Tim is trying to balance a hero life, home life, school life, and a personal life. No other Batman character can do this as well, but I get the feeling that DC does not want Tim to be a high schooler anymore. They want him to act independent, but when he does that he loses a lot of the grounding things I feel set him apart from the rest of the Bat cast.

----------


## TheCape

> I really have no idea what they should do with Tim. I used to really like Tim, as he was te Robin I grew up with, and I will forever be appreciative of him for modernizing the identity, but I don't really see how they can walk his character back to something that would be more grounded or different to what he has become. Now he is some super genius Batman that feels so over the top at times where I don't know where he fits in anymore. 
> 
> The Tim I liked was the one that was more like Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimate Spider-man was a thing. The things that Tim has that make him unique is that he has his parents, had a fairly normal childhood, and is grounded in a way that Dick, Jason or Damian can never be. You can do actual stories where Tim is trying to balance a hero life, home life, school life, and a personal life. No other Batman character can do this as well, but I get the feeling that DC does not want Tim to be a high schooler anymore. They want him to act independent, but when he does that he loses a lot of the grounding things I feel set him apart from the rest of the Bat cast.


Peter Parker has been a freaking genius since day one, if he can go back to street level, i'm pretty sure that Tim can do the same  :Stick Out Tongue: , althougth i would be glad if we forget about the self repairing building, we don't a Reed Richards in the DC universe.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Peter Parker has been a freaking genius since day one, if he can go back to street level, i'm pretty sure that Tim can do the same , althougth i would be glad if we forger about the self repairing building, we don't a.Reed Richards in the DC universe.


Tynion has been bad at handling Tim but at least he finally found a direction for Tim that works taking a step back from trying to defend Gotham that's already taking him back to his everyman roots.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> The Tim I liked was the one that was more like Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimate Spider-man was a thing. The things that Tim has that make him unique is that he has his parents, had a fairly normal childhood, and is grounded in a way that Dick, Jason or Damian can never be. You can do actual stories where Tim is trying to balance a hero life, home life, school life, and a personal life. No other Batman character can do this as well, but I get the feeling that DC does not want Tim to be a high schooler anymore. They want him to act independent, but when he does that he loses a lot of the grounding things I feel set him apart from the rest of the Bat cast.


This right here.   We don't see Tim outside of costumed life anymore, and that is what made him unique and likable.   He was a nerd we'd often see playing D&D with his buddies.   Having to explain the results of his alter ego to teachers and roommates was a tall task.   He was navigating the waters of having a girlfriend in Arianna.   Then he was constantly kept on his toes by Steph.   Those things are gone, and we are left with the guy in the costume who hasn't been likable since before New 52.

----------


## TheCape

> This right here.   We don't see Tim outside of costumed life anymore, and that is what made him unique and likable.   He was a nerd we'd often see playing D&D with his buddies.   Having to explain the results of his alter ego to teachers and roommates was a tall task.   He was navigating the waters of having a girlfriend in Arianna.   Then he was constantly kept on his toes by Steph.   Those things are gone, and we are left with the guy in the costume who hasn't been likable since before New 52.


Moder superhero comics don't really do this kind of thing anymore sadly (most of the time) they seem to be more interested in the characther being super 24/7 and frankly i feel that nobody has the patience to build anything these days.

----------


## Assam

> Moder superhero comics don't really do this kind of thing anymore sadly (most of the time) they seem to be more interested in the characther being super 24/7 and frankly i feel that nobody has the patience to build anything these days.


There are many reasons why my interest in cape comics as a genre has waned, but this is one of the biggest. The basic story outline of 'hero fights villain' (curiously what most Batman fans seem to want in his books) is something I've come to find _really_ boring. It just isn't usually a very interesting core conflict. Look at my quote and you'll see over a dozen 'superhero' books, but in nearly all of them, either it isn't actually about heroes fighting villains or they DO put in the work to build up the characters like they used to.

----------


## Mataza

> Will never understand this mentality. Tim is no more bland than Dick and they're both on the same level of blandness as Duke. They all have unique personality traits and relationships that distinguish themselves from one another, I'm a big Tim fan while not a fan of Dick after all, but none of them exactly have personalities  that *pop.*


Tim has a nuanced and layered personality that is informed by his experiences. He has very simple motivations though, to him it mostly comes down to doing the right thing. 




> Tim really shouldn't be _that_ arrogant, just mildly so


Tim isnt arrogant. He is just cocky.
The difference is that an arrogant person believes he is superior to the rest, a cocky person merely has self confidence and isnt afraid to show it.




> Tim's self-healing buildings


If Tims inventions were any less impressive youd be able to buy them in wallmart. Smart buildings are already a reality.





> Now he is some super genius Batman that feels so over the top at times where I don't know where he fits in anymore.


Thats the thing tho, Tim is a lot less capable now that when he was Robin (like seriously, his robin feats were amazing. He is getting crap for being able to hack in kryptonian, when its not that far fetched for someone that managed to hack metallo in a few seconds while trying not to die). Its just that the author is more concerned with showing the character off than with telling a story, therefore its more noticeable. Tynion is guilty of this with every character he writes tho, Batman, Batwoman, Orphan, Spoiler, Azrael. They all got these incredibly badass perfect moments.
People on this forum just seem to be hung up about Tim, i hang out in other places and they dont seem particularly bothered by either the character or how its writen.





> The Tim I liked was the one that was more like Ultimate Spider-man before Ultimate Spider-man was a thing. The things that Tim has that make him unique is that he has his parents, had a fairly normal childhood, and is grounded in a way that Dick, Jason or Damian can never be.


While circumstances did contribute to make the character unique, i believe what separated him from the other characters was his level-headedness and maturity. And going forward his cunning, edge and cockyness were a very interesting direction to move him towards.




> They want him to act independent, but when he does that he loses a lot of the grounding things I feel set him apart from the rest of the Bat cast.


To be honest i dont even think *they* know what they want for the character.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I have not made peace with the name Red Robin (yuck not yum).
> 
> I want DC dedicated to giving Tim a serious overhaul or fix.
> 
> I fell tinkering could lead to improvements. (But I've been wrong before.)


It can lead to improvements for sure but it can also over shadow the character. Tim's getting close to that. We spend so long debating his hero name. It comes up when anyone tries to discuss the character.

I believe the whole thing surrounding the RR name would have died down significantly if not for the fact that we fans keep talking about it.

Tim's name is fine it didn't stop the similarly named solo from being a good book did it? The name is just fine.

----------


## TheCape

> It can lead to improvements for sure but it can also over shadow the character. Tim's getting close to that. We spend so long debating his hero name. It comes up when anyone tries to discuss the character.
> 
> I believe the whole thing surrounding the RR name would have died down significantly if not for the fact that we fans keep talking about it.
> 
> Tim's name is fine it didn't stop the similarly named solo from being a good book did it? The name is just fine.


Honestly i didn't see people mocking his name until around 2014, before that people seemed to be ok with.

----------


## TheCape

> Tim has a nuanced and layered personality that is informed by his experiences. He has very simple motivations though, to him it mostly comes down to doing the right thing. 
> 
> 
> Tim isnt arrogant. He is just cocky.
> The difference is that an arrogant person believes he is superior to the rest, a cocky person merely has self confidence and isnt afraid to show it.
> 
> 
> 
> If Tims inventions were any less impressive youd be able to buy them in wallmart. Smart buildings are already a reality.
> ...


Tynion is a declared Tim fanboy and he recieve more attention than the others, so people that don't like him or just aren't that interested on him feel annoyed by his strong presence on the book, specially Batman fans that feel that he is been used as a prop for the other characthers. Doesn't help that the whole Mr Oz thing didn't pay off at the end.

----------


## Mataza

> Tynion is a declared Tim fanboy and he recieve more attention than the others, so people that don't like him or just aren't that interested on him feel annoyed by his strong presence on the book, specially Batman fans that feel that he is been.used as a prop for the other characthers. Doesn't help that the whole Mr Oz thing didn't pay off at the end.


The worf effect has been real with Batman. But its fine to use him as a prop. Wouldnt say its been for other characters tho (every other character has, at some point, been used as a prop as well). Its been to amp the threats to make a team necessary in the first place. Without this what would be the point of a team book? to have a bunch of assistants?
The batman of the 90s needed a Robin, he also often needed a Nightwing, he needed an Oracle.
Also i believe theres a second reason, they have been trying to humanize Bruce, show his weakness, this is good, he is a human, he should make mistakes, he should be overwhelmed. And Tynion has made him look far more intelligent on Detective than King has on Batman.

----------


## TheCape

> The worf effect has been real with Batman. But its fine to use him as a prop. Wouldnt say its been for other characters tho (every other character has, at some point, been used as a prop as well). Its been to amp the threats to make a team necessary in the first place. Without this what would be the point of a team book? to have a bunch of assistants?
> The batman of the 90s needed a Robin, he also often needed a Nightwing, he needed an Oracle.
> Also i believe theres a second reason, they have been trying to humanize Bruce, show his weakness, this is good, he is a human, he should make mistakes, he should be overwhelmed. And Tynion has made him look far more intelligent on Detective than King has on Batman.


Many people don't like the idea of Batman being jobbed for the sake of his soldiers or playing the archetypal "father" role of the team or the batfamily criticize him for his actions because is kind of an overused cliche for many and that they are sucking from his popularity. Others just don't like the idea of sharing Tec with other sidekicks when this is usually a Batman book. I don't neceseraly agreed with all then,.but i can understand their point

As for inteligence, i don't know, i haven't seen anything impressive in that regard beetween Tynion and King's run,

----------


## Mataza

> Many people don't like the idea of Batman being jobbed


How will a story ever have any kind of tension if the threat isnt real. I dont think its for the sake of "his soldiers", just for the sake of the story as a whole. Azrael gets destroyed at the start to present an unknown threat. Batman Gets overwhelmed to raise the stakes but at the same time it shows us that batman probably planned it all along, showing us how smart, prepared and devoted to the cause he really is. I dont think anyone in this forum picked up on this, they probably complained when batman got beaten but never praised Tynion once it got resolved.

----------


## millernumber1

> How will a story ever have any kind of tension if the threat isnt real. I dont think its for the sake of "his soldiers", just for the sake of the story as a whole. Azrael gets destroyed at the start to present an unknown threat. Batman Gets overwhelmed to raise the stakes but at the same time it shows us that batman probably planned it all along, showing us how smart, prepared and devoted to the cause he really is. I dont think anyone in this forum picked up on this, they probably complained when batman got beaten but never praised Tynion once it got resolved.


I have been! I love Tynion's Bruce!

----------


## Caivu

> I have been! I love Tynion's Bruce!


Seconded. Just because he's flawed doesn't mean he's incompetent or any less cool.

----------


## KrustyKid

Ninja Jason and Tim

tumblr_p10lw4Thoc1sk7tuoo1_1280.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> Ninja Jason and Tim
> 
> tumblr_p10lw4Thoc1sk7tuoo1_1280.jpg


That's a pretty good pic.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ninja Jason and Tim
> 
> tumblr_p10lw4Thoc1sk7tuoo1_1280.jpg


Nice - who did it?

----------


## AlvinDraper

I know this isn't the place, but what the heck happened to Steph's thread??

Also Miller, that fic you recommended...gosh - I died with the discussion between Tim and Steph in the last chapter

----------


## Assam

> I know this isn't the place, but what the heck happened to Steph's thread??


There were a bunch of spam threads earlier. Did the admins accidentally delete Steph's along with them?

----------


## Caivu

Yeesh, hopefully that thread can be restored in full.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know this isn't the place, but what the heck happened to Steph's thread??
> 
> Also Miller, that fic you recommended...gosh - I died with the discussion between Tim and Steph in the last chapter


Seems to be back? 

I love a great Tim in fic. Sensitive, nerdy, kind, but with elements of cockiness and enthusiasm.

----------


## scary harpy

What would be a good new name for Tim?

Anyone? anyone?

----------


## TheCape

> What would be a good new name for Tim?
> 
> Anyone? anyone?


Red Robin work just fine man, he just need a better writter.

----------


## Mataza

The Fox
Wyvern

----------


## Frontier

Codenames are hard  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## scary harpy

> Codenames are hard .


If they were easy, we'd have a good codename by now.  :Wink:

----------


## Blue22

> What would be a good new name for Tim?
> 
> Anyone? anyone?


That's a tough one that I've been pondering for a while. Lame as Red Robin is, I can't think of anything else that suits him without leaving behind the bird theme (not that that really matters. It's not like "Red Hood" is a type of bird). After the way he's been in Detective Comics, I'd says he needs a break more than he needs a new code name. I wouldn't be opposed to him taking a step back from the hero work and becoming a new Oracle. Though, knowing him right now, he'd probably find a way to go overboard with that too.

----------


## Mataza

Character needs a solo and room to breathe.

----------


## scary harpy

> Character needs a solo and room to breathe.


Agreed. That wouldn't hurt Tim...or a few others.

Many of the Batfamily could use her/his own book...but then we'd have 15 BatBooks. The Bats have over 500 villains; so that wouldn't be a problem. Wouldn't that glut the market?

DC seems to have a real problem producing quality BatBooks (see Batwoman, Batwing, Nightwing, etcetera). I don't think I'm asking for too much; I just want a simple straight-forward BatHero versus the Villain of the Story-Arc (with a few simple sub-plots allowed). I can get this from a Batman cartoon...so why can't I find it in a comic?!?!?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

It should just the The Drake.

----------


## Caivu

> DC seems to have a real problem producing quality BatBooks (see Batwoman, Batwing, Nightwing, etcetera).


All of those are good, though...




> I don't think I'm asking for too much; I just want a *simple* straight-forward BatHero versus the Villain of the Story-Arc (with a few *simple* sub-plots allowed).


I've bolded what I see as the biggest potential missteps with this idea.

----------


## scary harpy

> DC seems to have a real problem producing quality BatBooks (see Batwoman, Batwing, Nightwing, etcetera).





> All of those are good, though...


Beauty and the Beholder's eye.




> I don't think I'm asking for too much; I just want a *simple* straight-forward BatHero versus the Villain of the Story-Arc (with a few *simple* sub-plots allowed).





> I've bolded what I see as the biggest potential missteps with this idea.


What do you have against simple?

----------


## Caivu

> What do you have against simple?


What do you have against complex?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I tend to not like stories where the only point is "fight the villain", and then repeat for the next arc. I want more meat than that.

----------


## scary harpy

> What do you have against complex? 
> 
> I tend to not like stories where the only point is "fight the villain", and then repeat for the next arc. I want more meat than that.


If DC publishes about 15 BatBooks, I'm sure that we can find, at least, one title suited for each of us.

----------


## Mataza

I just miss the young and cunning tactician with the weight of the world on his shoulders. Its a great archtype that nobody else can fill.

----------


## Aahz

> If DC publishes about 15 BatBooks, I'm sure that we can find, at least, one title suited for each of us.


They could at least do a mini series, I mean they gave even Bat-Mite one.

----------


## 9th.

> What would be a good new name for Tim?
> 
> Anyone? anyone?


I vote Oracle

----------


## HandofPrometheus

I'll just give him Owlman.

----------


## CPSparkles

Ninja Tim



Saw Batman Ninja. *spoilers:*
 The robins didn't do much at all aside from Damian. It was enjoyable though 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


I wonder what's got Damian so PO'd there

----------


## Blue22

Same things that always have him PO'd XD

----------


## CPSparkles

> I wonder what's got Damian so PO'd there


I'm guessing the fact that he's shortest, the fact that other's will fit into the batsuit before him or the fact that he spent his birthdays for years engaging in lethal combat just to earn the right to know his father's name [such a little detail] and these 3 got to know the man so freely. No Torture, no Blood, no Pain, no PTSD.

the general hellish nightmare that was his reality up til this point.

You know the usually messed up personality shaping things that would PO Damian or any human being with feels.

Those experience and events stay with you. Most people who've been conditioned, abused or traumatised don't ever get to be okay. Damian had all 3. Lord help us.

----------


## Mataza

Eh, he is still young, most of those experiences will leave him by the time he hits 18.
Also i think he will have a growing spurt eventually and be bigger than the rest.

On doomsday clock, damn thats taking a long time. Wonder if the delay is because they want to get the book just right, or if its because important rebirth characters are not where they should be and so delays are necesary for those stories to be told first. This includes Tim and Wally.

----------


## phantom1592

> I'll just give him Owlman.


I'm not a fan of that idea. The only thing worse in my opinion than taking another heroes identity and legacy... even if he did it originally with Robin... Is taking the name of a VILLAIN. 

What logical progression would go through his mind to make him want to take THAT name?

----------


## The Dying Detective

Well there's always White Knight because of how light-hearted Tim is and how he isn't very Batman-lite.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm not a fan of that idea. The only thing worse in my opinion than taking another heroes identity and legacy... even if he did it originally with Robin... Is taking the name of a VILLAIN. 
> 
> What logical progression would go through his mind to make him want to take THAT name?


Actually Dick was the first Owlman in Batman #107.

----------


## phantom1592

> Actually Dick was the first Owlman in Batman #107.


Yeah... but that was back in the golden age and at least 3 reboots away from being in continuity. Whereas the Crime Syndicate is an actual mostly current thing that still pops up to terrorize Batman and the Justice League. It would be like Tim deciding to name himself the Riddler or Amazo the boy Wonder... the Names been taken and it's been used for evil. 

Even if it WAS still in continuity... and not even Earth-2... He'd still just be taking ANOTHER of Dick's cast off names. Which is frankly my big issue with the Red Robin costume.  

Now MAYBE... MAYBE NightOwl... It's a famous recycled name, but not from HIS point of view. He's never heard of him... Unless Niteowl plays a part in doomsday clock, I've missed most of that.

Still there are a lot of birds and flying things out there that he could play with. I think he should upgrade to some kind of eagle or Falcon... maybe a Hawk, but that's a well used bird too. Owls are a little 'dark and creepy' for Tim...

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah... but that was back in the golden age and at least 3 reboots away from being in continuity. Whereas the Crime Syndicate is an actual mostly current thing that still pops up to terrorize Batman and the Justice League. It would be like Tim deciding to name himself the Riddler or Amazo the boy Wonder... the Names been taken and it's been used for evil. 
> 
> Even if it WAS still in continuity... and not even Earth-2... He'd still just be taking ANOTHER of Dick's cast off names. Which is frankly my big issue with the Red Robin costume.


Technically it was Silver Age and therefore Earth-1.

Btw. there was already non-evil Owlman in the pre-flashpoint Outsiders series.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm guessing the fact that he's shortest, the fact that other's will fit into the batsuit before him or the fact that he spent his birthdays for years engaging in lethal combat just to earn the right to know his father's name [such a little detail] and these 3 got to know the man so freely. No Torture, no Blood, no Pain, no PTSD.
> 
> the general hellish nightmare that was his reality up til this point.
> 
> You know the usually messed up personality shaping things that would PO Damian or any human being with feels.
> 
> Those experience and events stay with you. Most people who've been conditioned, abused or traumatised don't ever get to be okay. Damian had all 3. Lord help us.


Lol, that should explain it

----------


## scary harpy

> Originally Posted by Aahz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by phantom1592
> ...


I vote we leave NightOwl to the Watchman derivatives. 




> Technically it was Silver Age and therefore Earth-1.
> 
> Btw. there was already non-evil Owlman in the pre-flashpoint Outsiders series.


I vote we forget the non-evil Owlman (the sooner the better).

Owls (and their Talons) are firmly established as bad by the mythology of _Metal_. Hawks, while heroic, are a little common now.

Other possible names:

Mockingbird
Oracle
Paladin

----------


## Assam

> I vote we forget the non-evil Owlman (the sooner the better).


Hear Hear!

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Paladin would be cool.

----------


## Zaresh

I know this may be my first post here in this topic that I usually just lurk around, but if my vote counts for something, Mockingbird would be fun (because Bobby also uses a bo staff, and because it fits my perception of Tim). Other birds that would be nice for a name theme are corvids, which are pretty smart birds (and pretty, I think they're pretty). Paladin isn't bad either; works towards the knight theme, and that's nice.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> Seems to be back? 
> 
> I love a great Tim in fic. Sensitive, nerdy, kind, but with elements of cockiness and enthusiasm.


yeah its like like reading red robin all over again...its just the same Tim

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Nothing I've read here is worth a change of name and identity for Tim.
Now we are used to Red Robin and it have to stay, what Tim really needs is a change of direction, some writer who could give him a real shake and come back on the road he was before N52.

----------


## TheCape

> Nothing I've read here is worth a change of name and identity for Tim.
> Now we are used to Red Robin and it have to stay, what Tim really needs is a change of direction, some writer who could give him a real shake and come back on the road he was before N52.


I agreed, people like to mock the name, but frankly most superhero names are kind of silly when you think about it and even when he was written in a solo series using that identity he sold fine, so what he really needs is just good writting.

----------


## Rac7d*

why did they do him like this all evil

----------


## millernumber1

> why did they do him like this all evil


I would say Tomasi, but I think that is Percy. But since we still have no sign of Tim even contacting his former team, I have no clue unless Tynion really is going to put him in a Young Justice book.

----------


## Mataza

Tomasi doesnt like Tim?

----------


## TheCape

> Tomasi doesnt like Tim?


Not that we know, althougth millernumber never liked how he wrote him ln "The War of the Robins" arc

----------


## millernumber1

> Not that we know, althougth millernumber never liked how he wrote him ln "The War of the Robins" arc


Actually, I don't think Tomasi had much to do with Robin War. My speculation that Tomasi doesn't like Tim comes from the way he wrote Tim in Batman and Robin during the n52 - Tim came off the weakest in Damian's confrontation with all the other Robins to prove himself the best, as Damian emotionally tortures him with video of his failure to save Artemis, and then later, when Batman is attempting to resurrect Damian after the events of Batman Inc, Tim looks the least competent and sympathetic in the stages of grief arc.

(I spent several days reading all of Tim's non-Teen Titans appearances in the n52 a few years ago, and I was deeply unimpressed with the way Tomasi wrote him in these issues.)

----------


## TheCape

> Actually, I don't think Tomasi had much to do with Robin War. My speculation that Tomasi doesn't like Tim comes from the way he wrote Tim in Batman and Robin during the n52 - Tim came off the weakest in Damian's confrontation with all the other Robins to prove himself the best, as Damian emotionally tortures him with video of his failure to save Artemis, and then later, when Batman is attempting to resurrect Damian after the events of Batman Inc, Tim looks the least competent and sympathetic in the stages of grief arc.
> 
> (I spent several days reading all of Tim's non-Teen Titans appearances in the n52 a few years ago, and I was deeply unimpressed with the way Tomasi wrote him in these issues.)


I'm pretty sure than that Batman and Robin arc was called "War of the Robins", that was the one that i was talking about, my memory could be wrong thougth.

As for his take, i remenber that in his Nightwing run he wrote him decently, is just that his relation with Damian is quite different.

He didn't come across badly in the grief arc in my opinion, Bruce was doing a crazy and immoral thing and he stopped it, simple as that, althougth i was kind of dissapointed that he barely appeared there.

----------


## Mataza

I dont get how Damian could ever Beat Tim. He doesnt have the experience, the training, the body or the cunning to beat him.

----------


## TheCape

> I dont get how Damian could ever Beat Tim. He doesnt have the experience, the training, the body or the cunning to beat him.


Super assasin training, mostly. Althougth honestly, thid kind of things are always difficult to determine, because is usually done by plot reasons, Damian beat Tim on Morrison's run because he wanted to show how different he was for the previous Robins (contrary to the popular belief Jason wasn't that violent or angry), Tim manhandle Damian in an inconcluse fight because Nicieza wanted to show Tim's tactical side etc. You are in for a treat if you want to discuss that because both sides are really inconclusive, not mentioning how touchy are both fanbases with their favs.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm pretty sure than that Batman and Robin arc was called "War of the Robins", that was the one that i was talking about, my memory could be wrong thougth.
> 
> As for his take, i remenber that in his Nightwing run he wrote him decently, is just that his relation with Damian is quite different.
> 
> He didn't come across badly in the grief arc in my opinion, Bruce was doing a crazy and immoral thing and he stopped it, simple as that, althougth i was kind of dissapointed that he barely appeared there.


I just checked, and the arc was called "Terminus" after the main villain. I don't think there's any arc titled "War of the Robins."

As I am pretty non-literate when it comes to Nightwing runs prior to "Grayson", I haven't tried Tomasi's run there.

In the grief arc, in terms of what Tim was actually doing, yes, he was stopping Batman from doing an immoral thing, but he was completely ineffective in his relationship to Bruce (though, to be fair, everyone was, and the way Tomasi handled Bruce's incredibly destructive actions in the long run is one of my biggest gripes with him as a writer - it seems to really either excuse or ignore just how sick what Bruce did to especially Jason was). (Side note: much as it wasn't perfect, I really do think that Tynion did a good job of showing Bruce's love for Tim in Tec, when he died and then came back to life.)




> Super assasin training, mostly. Althougth honestly, thid kind of things are always difficult to determine, because is usually done by plot reasons, Damian beat Tim on Morrison's run because he wanted to show how different he was for the previous Robins (contrary to the popular belief Jason wasn't that violent or angry), Tim manhandle Damian in an inconcluse fight because Nicieza wanted to show Tim's tactical side etc. You are in for a treat if you want to discuss that because both sides are really inconclusive, not mentioning how touchy are both fanbases with their favs.


Haha, very true. That's part of why I hate the whole "rank DC fighters" thing, because it's so writer and story dependent, and being "better ranked" is actually completely meaningless unless you're a fan who's trying to police writers.

----------


## Mataza

Its just league training. We have seen Bruce and Dick beat Ras and Ras has hundreds of years of league training.
Also in morrison run its actually Tim beating Damian. Then Damian tricking Tim after he lowers his guard, its not like we see the character ever do better than him in a fight or anything. 

I do martial arts, i do some training with kids of Damians age, or older. No matter if they have been training for 4 or 6 years, they havent developed their muscles yet.

----------


## phantom1592

> Its just league training. We have seen Bruce and Dick beat Ras and Ras has hundreds of years of league training.
> Also in morrison run its actually Tim beating Damian. Then Damian tricking Tim after he lowers his guard, its not like we see the character ever do better than him in a fight or anything. 
> 
> I do martial arts, i do some training with kids of Damians age, or older. No matter if they have been training for 4 or 6 years, they havent developed their muscles yet.



The very concept of 'Robin' is that a well trained kid who knows the right moves and the right pressure points can drop full grown adults so I don't have any problem with that.

However... Super assassin training doesn't mean much when Batman and Robin have spent years kicking the crap out of Super Assassins. Ra's, Talia, Shiva, the League... They've all been fought, beaten and put in their place by the heroes over the decades. Just saying 'Well the kid had League training' was never enough for me. :P

----------


## TheCape

> Its just league training. We have seen Bruce and Dick beat Ras and Ras has hundreds of years of league training.
> Also in morrison run its actually Tim beating Damian. Then Damian tricking Tim after he lowers his guard, its not like we see the character ever do better than him in a fight or anything. 
> 
> I do martial arts, i do some training with kids of Damians age, or older. No matter if they have been training for 4 or 6 years, they havent developed their muscles yet.


Well, a fair amount of suspension of disbelief is require for comic book fiction and Damian was mean to be like a weird exaggeration of Bruce.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I dont get how Damian could ever Beat Tim. He doesnt have the experience, the training, the body or the cunning to beat him.


He technicaly has more experience, killing techniques, hes not a regular boy remember, he a bit genetically enhanced, he frighteningly cunning
Its very easy to see how he could

Then again tims the lesat physical robin

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

IMO Damian is fated to become the next true generalist of the Bat fam. 

By the time Damian is a teen, I would expect him to be able to drop Tim in a fight, with some difficulty.

----------


## Mataza

> IMO Damian is fated to become the next true generalist of the Bat fam.


Makes sense.




> By the time Damian is a teen, I would expect him to be able to drop Tim in a fight, with some difficulty.


And that does too. Damian is already a teen and it should make a huge difference. 

I just never understood the claims that Damian, when he was 10 could beat Tim, when all we saw pointed to the opposite. Same with Jason to be honest. Jason and Tim manhandled Damian with ease when provoked, as it should be, as it makes sense for it to be.

----------


## millernumber1

I'm a bit amused that while Tim has remained 16 (not even aging one year to 17 with Rebirth), Damian is now 13. Shouldn't Tim be 19 now?  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> I'm a bit amused that while Tim has remained 16 (not even aging one year to 17 with Rebirth), Damian is now 13. Shouldn't Tim be 19 now?


Yeah, the older that Tim has been on his story is 17 and now he is just going to college  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Mataza

> I'm a bit amused that while Tim has remained 16 (not even aging one year to 17 with Rebirth), Damian is now 13. Shouldn't Tim be 19 now?


Funnier still is that damian has been Robin the longest after Dick. Even if technically Tim was Robin for like 20 years irl.




> IMO Damian is fated to become the next true generalist of the Bat fam.


Id like to revise my opinion here. Damian is nowhere near being the generalist of the Batfam, his road is already very clear. He will become the strongest Robin and possibly the strongest martial fighter in DC by the time he drops the Robin mantle, every other quality seems to pale when compared to that one.

Also to a degree every Robin is a true generalist, it is their time to grow and their possibilities for growth are pretty big. Tim was good at everything, but really amazing at detective work, programing and stealth. Then in Red Robin we see those qualities turned up to 11, he is smarter and more cunning than Ras, he can take down an entire organization using a computer while being surveiled and can outstealth even Bruce, heck, neither Dick nor Batman can hide from him. 
Those are feats of perception, coding, cunning and planning that position him comfortably in the A list. Not to mention his ability to inspire loyalty through his team management and tactical skills always put him in a leading role, regardless of wether he wants to or not. 

Dick was also good at everything, but as nightwing he can drop down from pretty much any height without a parachute and have a smooth descent. He fights so hard and so fast that he can punch people through walls, he controls his body in such a way that he embodies the idea of freedom, he is the most charismatic superhero in DC, he is witty and charming like no one else. And anyone will follow him, he is a natural.

Jason was always a brawler, he can be really intimidating (the only Robin that can be as intimidating as Bruce imo). I think his determination and stubborness rivals Bruce, and he has amazing instincts.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, the older that Tim has been on his story is 17 and now he is just going to college .


Tim is going to college early - he's definitely still 16.  :Smile: 




> Funnier still is that damian has been Robin the longest after Dick. Even if technically Tim was Robin for like 20 years irl.


I don't think that's actually true. Tim was Robin from around age 12 to 17. The ages are foggy sometimes, and it's rare for them to actually acknowledge it, but most of the interviews I've read say Tim was 12-13 in Lonely Place of Dying, and he definitely hit 17 when Dick made Damian Robin.

----------


## Mataza

Tim met Bruce and Dick when he was 13, that was a lonely place of dying. Then he trained almost a year, he was over 14 by then. In the story in which he becomes Robin, after saving Batman and Vicky vale from the scarecrow.

That makes it 3 whole years roughly speaking. We definitely know he wasnt 18 in Red Robin.
Damian has been Robin from his 10 to his 13 (3 extremely uneventful years) and he is nowhere near done with the mantle. Meaning he is either roughly there, or will be there soon enough.

This of course asuming Tim hasnt been Red Robin for longer in this timeline, which seems to be the case. It all points out to him being Robin a few months (meaning an even shorter time than Jason), especially if you consider Damian has already been at it for 3 years, meaning that Damian has been Robin since Tim was 13.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think that's actually true. Tim was Robin from around age 12 to 17. The ages are foggy sometimes, and it's rare for them to actually acknowledge it, but most of the interviews I've read say Tim was 12-13 in Lonely Place of Dying, and he definitely hit 17 when Dick made Damian Robin.


He is clearly said to be 13 in Lonely Place of Dying.

The only thing about his age that is really foggy is when he turned 15 imo.

Ages for Dick and Jason imo more complicatedly.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim met Bruce and Dick when he was 13, that was a lonely place of dying. Then he trained almost a year, he was over 14 by then. In the story in which he becomes Robin, after saving Batman and Vicky vale from the scarecrow.
> 
> That makes it 3 whole years roughly speaking. We definitely know he wasnt 18 in Red Robin.
> Damian has been Robin from his 10 to his 13 (3 extremely uneventful years) and he is nowhere near done with the mantle. Meaning he is either roughly there, or will be there soon enough.
> 
> This of course asuming Tim hasnt been Red Robin for longer in this timeline, which seems to be the case. It all points out to him being Robin a few months (meaning an even shorter time than Jason), especially if you consider Damian has already been at it for 3 years, meaning that Damian has been Robin since Tim was 13.


Do you really think DC will let Damian age much further without aging Tim up? Will Damian overtake Tim? Or will they stop it when Damian's just one year younger?

Tim's backstory seems like he was Robin/Red Robin as a partner to Batman for about a year, and has been solo for another year or so, maybe two. But he reads about 14-15 in the n52 origin stories, so...the compressed 5 year timeline is still the worst.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Do you really think DC will let Damian age much further without aging Tim up? Will Damian overtake Tim? Or will they stop it when Damian's just one year younger?
> 
> Tim's backstory seems like he was Robin/Red Robin as a partner to Batman for about a year, and has been solo for another year or so, maybe two. But he reads about 14-15 in the n52 origin stories, so...the compressed 5 year timeline is still the worst.


Truthfully I think Tynion was trying to take advantage of the effects of Superman Reborn to reintegrate as much of Tim's original origin as he can. And make it plausible within the new ten year time gap.

----------


## Aahz

> Do you really think DC will let Damian age much further without aging Tim up? Will Damian overtake Tim? Or will they stop it when Damian's just one year younger?


Thats hard to say. Jason is for example now (or at least untill rebirth) usually written as being almost Dicks and Barbaras age. Originally he was roughly 7 years younger than Dick, which would make him not much older than Tim. 
It was pre flashpoint also established that Jason and Cass are about the same age (with Cass beeing the older one), and now Cass seems to be younger than Tim.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Aahz

> Funnier still is that damian has been Robin the longest after Dick. Even if technically Tim was Robin for like 20 years irl.
> 
> 
> Id like to revise my opinion here. Damian is nowhere near being the generalist of the Batfam, his road is already very clear. He will become the strongest Robin and possibly the strongest martial fighter in DC by the time he drops the Robin mantle, every other quality seems to pale when compared to that one.
> 
> Also to a degree every Robin is a true generalist, it is their time to grow and their possibilities for growth are pretty big. Tim was good at everything, but really amazing at detective work, programing and stealth. Then in Red Robin we see those qualities turned up to 11, he is smarter and more cunning than Ras, he can take down an entire organization using a computer while being surveiled and can outstealth even Bruce, heck, neither Dick nor Batman can hide from him. 
> Those are feats of perception, coding, cunning and planning that position him comfortably in the A list. Not to mention his ability to inspire loyalty through his team management and tactical skills always put him in a leading role, regardless of wether he wants to or not. 
> 
> Dick was also good at everything, but as nightwing he can drop down from pretty much any height without a parachute and have a smooth descent. He fights so hard and so fast that he can punch people through walls, he controls his body in such a way that he embodies the idea of freedom, he is the most charismatic superhero in DC, he is witty and charming like no one else. And anyone will follow him, he is a natural.
> ...


I can't really agree, if you go by damians own book he seems to be really be great at everything even a a lot of stuff that isn't even really related to crime fighting.

In Jason's case they still haven't really clearly defined where he is good at. Some things are shown in RHatO but most of them haven't really transitioned into his appearances in other books where he is hardly ever shown to excel at something, and even RHatO isn't really clear about some things (for example about all the All Caste stuff).

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Tim is going to college early - he's definitely still 16. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think that's actually true. Tim was Robin from around age 12 to 17. The ages are foggy sometimes, and it's rare for them to actually acknowledge it, but most of the interviews I've read say Tim was 12-13 in Lonely Place of Dying, and he definitely hit 17 when Dick made Damian Robin.


Pre-Flashpoint Tim served the second longest as Robin.   "Our time" he was the second longest as well.   Rebirth I would guess third longest.

----------


## Mataza

> I can't really agree, if you go by damians own book he seems to be really be great at everything even a a lot of stuff that isn't even really related to crime fighting.


Thats exactly what i said. Thats what the boy wonder does. Dick did it, Tim did it, Damian does it. 




> In Jason's case they still haven't really clearly defined where he is good at. Some things are shown in RHatO but most of them haven't really transitioned into his appearances in other books where he is hardly ever shown to excel at something, and even RHatO isn't really clear about some things (for example about all the All Caste stuff).


True, i struggled with him a bit. But he has a strong presence when he is serious, and he seems to be really stubborn and set on his ways. 

5817c562dca09b5e9afed9cdbddd33f5.jpg

He exudes attitude.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I can't really agree, if you go by damians own book he seems to be really be great at everything even a a lot of stuff that isn't even really related to crime fighting.
> 
> In Jason's case they still haven't really clearly defined where he is good at. Some things are shown in RHatO but most of them haven't really transitioned into his appearances in other books where he is hardly ever shown to excel at something, and even RHatO isn't really clear about some things (for example about all the All Caste stuff).


Jason is the best jason he can be but i knw that not enough for fans

----------


## millernumber1

> Truthfully I think Tynion was trying to take advantage of the effects of Superman Reborn to reintegrate as much of Tim's original origin as he can. And make it plausible within the new ten year time gap.


Agreed. An honestly, you can still massage the n52 origin to be a little compatible with his new conglomerate origin from Lonely Place of Living. I just hope his parents are still alive in his awesome safehouse on the outskirts of Gotham.  :Smile: 




> Thats hard to say. Jason is for example now (or at least untill rebirth) usually written as being almost Dicks and Barbaras age. Originally he was roughly 7 years younger than Dick, which would make him not much older than Tim. 
> It was pre flashpoint also established that Jason and Cass are about the same age (with Cass beeing the older one), and now Cass seems to be younger than Tim.


True. I've always though Jason seems written around 19/20 in n52/Rebirth. Whereas Dick and Babs are both about 21 (though they keep playing with the idea that time has passed in both Batgirl and the Birds of Prey and Batgirl, saying that it's been 2 years since the first arcs of Rebirth, so Babs would be 23, but that's not really going to stick.  :Smile:  ).

Cass's current age is uncertain, I think. Tynion's made it deliberately fuzzy, since David Cain "Orphan" kept her a secret with no records. But I'm pretty sure she's implied to be about 15-16, whereas Steph is 17 (per Batman Eternal).

----------


## TheCape

> Agreed. An honestly, you can still massage the n52 origin to be a little compatible with his new conglomerate origin from Lonely Place of Living. I just hope his parents are still alive in his awesome safehouse on the outskirts of Gotham. 
> 
> 
> 
> True. I've always though Jason seems written around 19/20 in n52/Rebirth. Whereas Dick and Babs are both about 21 (though they keep playing with the idea that time has passed in both Batgirl and the Birds of Prey and Batgirl, saying that it's been 2 years since the first arcs of Rebirth, so Babs would be 23, but that's not really going to stick.  ).
> 
> Cass's current age is uncertain, I think. Tynion's made it deliberately fuzzy, since David Cain "Orphan" kept her a secret with no records. But I'm pretty sure she's implied to be about 15-16, whereas Steph is 17 (per Batman Eternal).


If Steph age 2 years and Tim doesn't, the relationship is going to get uncomfortable  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Mataza

By the end of doomsday clock i wouldnt be surprised if they aged Tim to 19.

----------


## millernumber1

> If Steph age 2 years and Tim doesn't, the relationship is going to get uncomfortable


Ahaha. I really want Tim to age just one year. It's ridiculous that he's been 16 since the start of the n52, while Damian has aged three years.




> By the end of doomsday clock i wouldnt be surprised if they aged Tim to 19.


Really? There's been no real indication that they're going to age anyone except Superman up, and he's only aged up because of the whole "from the original universe" thing.

----------


## Aahz

> True. I've always though Jason seems written around 19/20 in n52/Rebirth. Whereas Dick and Babs are both about 21 (though they keep playing with the idea that time has passed in both Batgirl and the Birds of Prey and Batgirl, saying that it's been 2 years since the first arcs of Rebirth, so Babs would be 23, but that's not really going to stick.  ).


19/20 is still closer to 21 than to 16. He is usually hanging out with characters of Dicks age and almost dated Barbara in Eternal.

Btw. Dick was actually said to be in his mid 20s in one of the last Nightwing Issues.

----------


## Restingvoice

I think they aged Jason up unconsciously because he's now defined by being murdery and involved with mobs, drugs, the underworld, the prison, getting strip searched or tucked into bed shirtless by Black Mask crew. A 16 year old doing that will be more disturbing compared to a young adult. Unless it's anime, then it will be a fetish.

----------


## millernumber1

> 19/20 is still closer to 21 than to 16. He is usually hanging out with characters of Dicks age and almost dated Barbara in Eternal.
> 
> Btw. Dick was actually said to be in his mid 20s in one of the last Nightwing Issues.


Really? I didn't read the Lanzig/Kelly fill-in issues - was it one of those?

(I would agree that Jason seems closer to Dick and Babs in terms of relationship and age to me. Even pre-Red Hood, Jason had some flashback issues where he went on missions with Babs).

I liked the way Lanzig/Kelly wrote Tim and Jason's relationship in Batman and Robin Eternal, though. And honestly, even the way Lobdell wrote Tim and Jason in Robin War.

----------


## Aahz

> Really? I didn't read the Lanzig/Kelly fill-in issues - was it one of those?


I think is was in Last issue before Percy's Run.




> (I would agree that Jason seems closer to Dick and Babs in terms of relationship and age to me. Even pre-Red Hood, Jason had some flashback issues where he went on missions with Babs).


You mean from pre flashpoint? In those stories he was at least written to be much younger than Barbara.




> I liked the way Lanzig/Kelly wrote Tim and Jason's relationship in Batman and Robin Eternal, though. And honestly, even the way Lobdell wrote Tim and Jason in Robin War.


I don't know Jason felt a little of BRE, he was mostly comic relief and just a support character for Tim. And even there he was written as beeing older. They kind of implied that Jason was old enough to legally drink alcohol in the US. And it was iirc also later said that mothers mind control would only work on people below 20 and that Jason would therefore be immune.

He is also way more often teamed up with charcters of Dicks generation than with younger characters.

----------


## Zaresh

> I think they aged Jason up unconsciously because he's now defined by being murdery and involved with mobs, drugs, the underworld, the prison, getting strip searched or tucked into bed shirtless by Black Mask crew. A 16 year old doing that will be more disturbing compared to a young adult. *Unless it's anime, then it will be a fetish*.


Ok, you made me coughlaugh. Thank you, mate, I needed it.

----------


## Zaresh

> I think is was in Last issue before Percy's Run.
> 
> You mean from pre flashpoint? In those stories he was at least written to be much younger than Barbara.
> 
> I don't know Jason felt a little of BRE, he was mostly comic relief and just a support character for Tim. And even there he was written as beeing older. They kind of implied that Jason was old enough to legally drink alcohol in the US. And it was iirc also later said that mothers mind control would only work *on people below 20* and that Jason would therefore be immune.
> 
> He is also way more often teamed up with charcters of Dicks generation than with younger characters.


Wasn't it people below 16? Tim was bordering the age, iirc.

----------


## Aahz

> Wasn't it people below 16? Tim was bordering the age, iirc.


I'm petty sure it was 20. But I have to look it up.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason is the best jason he can be but i knw that not enough for fans


With basically every body in the Batfamily being some kind of genius now, it isn't really enough. Especally if he is now considered one of the adult members and will very likely not see him improve any further.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think is was in Last issue before Percy's Run.
> 
> You mean from pre flashpoint? In those stories he was at least written to be much younger than Barbara.
> 
> I don't know Jason felt a little of BRE, he was mostly comic relief and just a support character for Tim. And even there he was written as beeing older. They kind of implied that Jason was old enough to legally drink alcohol in the US. And it was iirc also later said that mothers mind control would only work on people below 20 and that Jason would therefore be immune.


Ah, okay. I personally wouldn't take a fill-in issue as normative for a character's age (or, honestly, anything, since it can be retconned whenever DC wants  :Wink:  ). I think Dick is almost certainly still 21 (though that's TECHNICALLY mid-twenties, since it's not 20, and everything between 20 and 30 is mid).

Yes, pre-Flashpoint. And I agree that he was written to be much younger than Babs - though Babs was much older then. Older than Dick, too, I believe.

I disagree that Jason was just comic relief and support. He has his own arc with overcoming St. Dumas's mind virus, and getting closer to the Batfamily.

I don't think they implied he was old enough to legally drink. I think they just had Tim unwilling to drink with him.

Also, the fact that they teamed Jason up with Tim is probably partly why I enjoy BRE more than most.




> I'm petty sure it was 20. But I have to look it up.


In Batman and Robin Eternal, they say that Jason is too old to be affected by the broadcast mind virus, while Tim, Harper, and Cassandra are not (Tim being 16, Harper being the same age, I believe). Interestingly, Steph is never shown being affected, and she's 17. Additionally, one of the four Skull Girls (Pantoja) is apparently old enough to resist the effects as well.

----------


## Zaresh

> Ah, okay. *I personally wouldn't take a fill-in issue as normative for a character's age (or, honestly, anything, since it can be retconned whenever DC wants  ). I think Dick is almost certainly still 21 (though that's TECHNICALLY mid-twenties, since it's not 20, and everything between 20 and 30 is mid).*
> 
> Yes, pre-Flashpoint. And I agree that he was written to be much younger than Babs - though Babs was much older then. Older than Dick, too, I believe.
> 
> I disagree that Jason was just comic relief and support. He has his own arc with overcoming St. Dumas's mind virus, and getting closer to the Batfamily.
> 
> I don't think they implied he was old enough to legally drink. I think they just had Tim unwilling to drink with him.
> 
> Also, the fact that they teamed Jason up with Tim is probably partly why I enjoy BRE more than most.
> ...


Given how many people read that issue, I would say it's going to stay as a for-now canon fact. And I too think they intended him to be literally middle 20's. That flashback a while bat a the U, and a few other things are indicative that Dick is no longer 21 in this timeline (in which Jason was still a middle teen), and may be even 25. They're slightly aging up a bunch of old-school characters, which feels about right for me, personally.

----------


## Rac7d*

> With basically every body in the Batfamily being some kind of genius now, it isn't really enough. Especally if he is now considered one of the adult members and will very likely not see him improve any further.


why is it not enough why is it a competition

----------


## millernumber1

> Given how many people read that issue, I would say it's going to stay as a for-now canon fact. And I too think they intended him to be literally middle 20's. That flashback a while bat a the U, and a few other things are indicative that Dick is no longer 21 in this timeline (in which Jason was still a middle teen), and may be even 25. They're slightly aging up a bunch of old-school characters, which feels about right for me, personally.


I don't think that's a really solid argument at all. I mean, interpretation of canon is your own thing, but I don't think it's reasonable for one to expect another person to accept that as fact. If they actually let Babs age along with Dick, I might be okay with it, but even though they're saying "Oh, it's been two years since Rebirth started" in the Batgirl series (pluaral), I have no doubt that come the next major retooling of that series, Babs will be right back to 21 (ditto Dick). And until Tim gets past 16, I refuse to accept anything except a direct statement of age in print.  :Wink:

----------


## Zaresh

> I don't think that's a really solid argument at all. I mean, interpretation of canon is your own thing, but I don't think it's reasonable for one to expect another person to accept that as fact. If they actually let Babs age along with Dick, I might be okay with it, but even though they're saying "Oh, it's been two years since Rebirth started" in the Batgirl series (pluaral), I have no doubt that come the next major retooling of that series, Babs will be right back to 21 (ditto Dick). And until Tim gets past 16, I refuse to accept anything except a direct statement of age in print.


You're entitled to your opinion, as eveyrone else. But as far as I've noticed reading comics old and new, usually, what stays as canon for a character's history and what doesn't has a lot to do with two facts: how well received a fact or event is, and how many people reads the material in which it appears. More often than what writers want to write for that character, even, unless it's a fact that is retaken and retold by following writers.

I mean, I may be wrong, but that's what I've learn after reasoning it. It's not science, but I'd say it's usually the mechanics behind. And of course, it's just my opinion.

(Phoneposting without spell or grammar check, don't mind possible mistakes, pls)

----------


## millernumber1

> You're entitled to your opinion, as eveyrone else. But as far as I've noticed reading comics old and new, usually, what stays as canon for a character's history and what doesn't has a lot to do with two facts: how well received a fact or event is, and how many people reads the material in which it appears. More often than what writers want to write for that character, even, unless it's a fact that is retaken and retold by following writers.
> 
> I mean, I may be wrong, but that's what I've learn after reasoning it. It's not science, but I'd say it's usually the mechanics behind. And of course, it's just my opinion.
> 
> (Phoneposting without spell or grammar check, don't mind possible mistakes, pls)


I agree that event popularity is important - but I think it also matters what creators love. Morrison brought back a bunch of stuff that I don't think a lot of people necessarily wanted before he brought it back. Tynion talks about how he loves Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive. And obviously, those things clearly influence the stuff they write. (And that's not even mentioning Seeley and his love for cupcake commercials.  :Smile:  ).

What you headcanon is perfectly valid. I just think you need to acknowledge it as headcanon, or loosely defined canon, instead of necessarily expecting everyone to agree.

----------


## Aahz

> In Batman and Robin Eternal, they say that Jason is too old to be affected by the broadcast mind virus, while Tim, Harper, and Cassandra are not (Tim being 16, Harper being the same age, I believe). Interestingly, Steph is never shown being affected, and she's 17. Additionally, one of the four Skull Girls (Pantoja) is apparently old enough to resist the effects as well.


In BRE#22 they say you have to be 20.

Batman & Robin Eternal #22.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> In BRE#22 they say you have to be 20.
> 
> Batman & Robin Eternal #22.jpg


They also show one of the skull girls resisting it because she's a bit older (but probably not 20 or older). And Cullen and Steph both show no effects during the main broadcast. So...I have no clue.  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Well, I do. The "Mother" plot stunk.

----------


## Aahz

> They also show one of the skull girls resisting it because she's a bit older (but probably not 20 or older). And Cullen and Steph both show no effects during the main broadcast. So...I have no clue.


A lot of the characters that fought in the final showdown shouldn't have been immune. Cullen is btw. even younger than Harper, Steph and Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> I disagree that Jason was just comic relief and support. He has his own arc with overcoming St. Dumas's mind virus,


With Tims help. Jason didn't really contributed anything during their adventure, all the important stuff was done by Tim.

----------


## millernumber1

> A lot of the characters that fought in the final showdown shouldn't have been immune. Cullen is btw. even younger than Harper, Steph and Tim.


Yeah, it's something I don't think they really dealt with well, the whole "who is affected by the virus." I think it might be implied that the main broadcast was only for the very young - below 13 - but I'd have to reread carefully. (It does fit with some of the stuff we see - the St. Hadrian's attack is a bit unusual in being a teen-only school.)




> With Tims help. Jason didn't really contributed anything during their adventure, all the important stuff was done by Tim.


There I disagree - Jason's breakout was essential to the plan, and I don't think that Tim helping Jason with his mental and spiritual struggle means that Jason didn't do anything - he did the important part, actually deciding to change his own direction.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

So where does Tim go now that Tec is ending in regard to this run. I would think that they would want to keep him around, maybe a new YJ or Outsiders group? I'm just worried that he might get stuck in Limbo and I don't want that to happen again. Tim is actually one of the most normal of the Robins when you think about it and having him be that makes the most sense in the over all growth of his relationships. I hope we get a better line up to what his origin is.

----------


## Assam

> maybe a new YJ or Outsiders group?


Cass and Duke are getting the new Outsiders book. YJ remains the strongest possibility for him. 




> I'm just worried that he might get stuck in Limbo and I don't want that to happen again.


When has Tim _ever_ been in limbo before? To my knowledge since his debut as Robin, Tim has _always_ has a series (or more) that he was starring in. His 'death' in 'Tec doesn't count because it was just part of a storyline by a single writer and he wasn't even gone for a full year.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> When has Tim _ever_ been in limbo before? To my knowledge since his debut as Robin, Tim has _always_ has a series (or more) that he was starring in. His 'death' in 'Tec doesn't count because it was just part of a storyline by a single writer and he wasn't even gone for a full year.


Tim has never been in limbo, although imo limbo would have been preferable to N52 Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> There I disagree - Jason's breakout was essential to the plan,


not really, and in comparison to Tim facing Azreal and Dumas it was quite underwhelming.




> and I don't think that Tim helping Jason with his mental and spiritual struggle means that Jason didn't do anything - he did the important part, actually deciding to change his own direction.


Still it wasn't just him alone.

And the rest of the arc was also mostly showing Jason as an reckless idiot who would get him self killed without Tim.

Sorry but Tim was clearly the lead in that story, that was not a team up of equals (and the team up of him an Barbara in the first Eternal was also not much better).

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, it's something I don't think they really dealt with well, the whole "who is affected by the virus." I think it might be implied that the main broadcast was only for the very young - below 13 - but I'd have to reread carefully. (It does fit with some of the stuff we see - the St. Hadrian's attack is a bit unusual in being a teen-only school.)


The Skull Girls are definitely older than than 13. They are more 16-17.

Cullen was actually in Midnighters base, so he was very likely not in reach of the the virus. But Damian, Steph and the We Are Robin Kids were all fighting and should have all been affected. 

And the younger than 20 was probaly anyway referring to attack on St. Hadrian's, that effected the teen characters but not Jason.


But thats clearly getting off topic now. 

To come back to the discussion about the Ages. How it is currently done doesn't really make sense with the timeline. Technically Tim and Jason should be quite close in age (one at the very most 2 years apart) and the age gaps between them and Dick on the one side and Damian on the other should be significantly bigger.

----------


## Mataza

BRE was a mess that i hope gets retconned out of existence. Its the single biggest waste of paper ive seen since death of the family.

----------


## Zaresh

> The Skull Girls are definitely older than than 13. They are more 16-17.
> 
> Cullen was actually in Midnighters base, so he was very likely not in reach of the the virus. But Damian, Steph and the We Are Robin Kids were all fighting and should have all been affected. 
> 
> And the younger than 20 was probaly anyway referring to attack on St. Hadrian's, that effected the teen characters but not Jason.
> 
> 
> But thats clearly getting off topic now. 
> 
> To come back to the discussion about the Ages. How it is currently done doesn't really make sense with the timeline. Technically Tim and Jason should be quite close in age (one at the very most 2 years apart) and the age gaps between them and Dick on the one side and Damian on the other should be significantly bigger.


This is mostly a headcanon (hah) made from the puzzle that, on one hand, current continuity has given us and, on the other hand, how I feel the characters, as far as I've seen, behave.
Bruce is around 40, but I think this is totally my headcanon based on nothing but feels.
Dick seems like 23-24, could be even 25 by what's been already noted here.
Babs is definitely in that range of age, maybe even 25 herself.
Jason is 20, probably almost 21.
Duke and Steph, I don't know about them a lot, but they feel like 18.
Tim seems to be slightly younger, 17, halfway to 18. But I don't know a lot about him either.
Damian, I think, is sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since Rebirth has started, iirc. A bit inconsistent, but I don't know; could be a problem with events and books not being in a timeline lined with their release order.

----------


## Aahz

> This is mostly a headcanon (hah) made from the puzzle that, on one hand, current continuity has given us and, on the other hand, how I feel the characters, as far as I've seen, behave.
> Bruce is around 40, but I think this is totally my headcanon based on nothing but feels.
> Dick seems like 23-24, could be even 25 by what's been already noted here.
> Babs is definitely in that range of age, maybe even 25 herself.
> Jason is 20, probably almost 21.
> Duke and Steph, I don't know about them a lot, but they feel like 18.
> Tim seems to be slightly younger, 17, halfway to 18. But I don't know a lot about him either.
> Damian, I think, is sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since Rebirth has started, iirc. A bit inconsistent, but I don't know; could be a problem with events and books not being in a timeline lined with their release order.


Pre Flashpoint the ages were is the End:
Dick 26-27
Tim 17
Damian 10

Which would have made Jason roughly 19.

But even back then, Tim should have been already 18 or 19. (Since Dick was around 21 when Tim appeared at the age of 13.)

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I don't know if I rember correctly, is this the first time Tim met Kon or I'm wrong?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tim has never been in limbo, although imo limbo would have been preferable to N52 Tim.


I agree with you, I'd add that limbo would be better than Rebirth Tim too, sadly.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I agree with you, I'd add that limbo would be better than Rebirth Tim too, sadly.


I don't, if only because at the very least rebirth Tim is salvageable in a way that N52 Tim wasn't.

----------


## Jadeb

> I don't know if I rember correctly, is this the first time Tim met Kon or I'm wrong?


Yeah, it is.




> I don't, if only because at the very least rebirth Tim is salvageable in a way that N52 Tim wasn't.


The latest issue of Tec seems to be teasing us again. But how many years have to go by before we give up on them actually salvaging him?

If Tynion is going to continue to write the character, I don't have much hope.

----------


## Frontier

Tynion sure knows how to get my hopes for Tim up, only to then dash them again  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I totally stopped to have faith in Tynion after "A lonely place of living"

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yeah, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> The latest issue of Tec seems to be teasing us again. But how many years have to go by before we give up on them actually salvaging him?
> 
> If Tynion is going to continue to write the character, I don't have much hope.


True, but if you're a writer, would you rather start from N52 Tim or Rebirth Tim?

----------


## Jadeb

> True, but if you're a writer, would you rather start from N52 Tim or Rebirth Tim?


Rebirth Tim is less awful, but I'd rather they scrap both. Reboot him so he's less smug, less overpowered and more human. Tynion has made Tim's genius and superhacking superpower the core of the character, and there's just no way to revert that back to the struggling everyman I found appealing.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Rebirth Tim is less awful, but I'd rather they scrap both. Reboot him so he's less smug, less overpowered and more human. Tynion has made Tim's genius and superhacking superpower the core of the character, and there's just no way to revert that back to the struggling everyman I found appealing.


That's partly because they lost their hacking genius in the form of Babs and Wendy, and had to give it to someone. Harper didn't work out well, so it went to Tim who had previous skills in computers and electronics. I would say scrapping both would be a bad idea. It took Tim years to get where he was at towards the end of Pre 52, and most of that came from Dixion's long running work on him and PAD's work in the YJ stories. If you remove those two other writers had a hard time with him because he didn't fit into any neat hole like Dick and Jason did. 

Also last I checked, Bruce was 35 to 40 pre 52, I think he's supposed to be 30 to 35 now in Rebirth
Dick is roughly 23 to 24 ish
Jason is 19 or 20 I think, because Roy is older than him, or at least he said so
Tim is 16
Steph 17
Cass I think is supposed to be 15 or 16 ish
Damian is 13
Kate is either Bruce's age or a year younger
Bette is Dick's age
Babs I think is supposed to be 23 to 24 as well. 
Helena B. is Late 20s
Dinah L. is maybe a few years older than Babs, like 25 to 26
Catwoman is either Bruce's age or a year or two younger or older not sure
Jean Paul is late 20s
Luke Fox is mid 20s
Basil was early 30s

And that's all I got right now.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's partly because they lost their hacking genius in the form of Babs and Wendy, and had to give it to someone. Harper didn't work out well, so it went to Tim who had previous skills in computers and electronics. I would say scrapping both would be a bad idea. It took Tim years to get where he was at towards the end of Pre 52, and most of that came from Dixion's long running work on him and PAD's work in the YJ stories. If you remove those two other writers had a hard time with him because he didn't fit into any neat hole like Dick and Jason did. 
> 
> Also last I checked, Bruce was 35 to 40 pre 52, I think he's supposed to be 30 to 35 now in Rebirth
> Dick is roughly 23 to 24 ish
> Jason is 19 or 20 I think, because Roy is older than him, or at least he said so
> Tim is 16
> Steph 17
> Cass I think is supposed to be 15 or 16 ish
> Damian is 13
> ...


Pretty sure you're about right for everyone. Bruce is technically in his 30s, but as of Endgame/Superheavy, his body is much, much younger - about 28 - because of Snyder's fake Lazarus pit.

----------


## Aahz

> Also last I checked, Bruce was 35 to 40 pre 52, I think he's supposed to be 30 to 35 now in Rebirth
> Dick is roughly 23 to 24 ish
> Jason is 19 or 20 I think, because Roy is older than him, or at least he said so
> Tim is 16
> Steph 17
> Cass I think is supposed to be 15 or 16 ish
> Damian is 13
> Kate is either Bruce's age or a year younger
> Bette is Dick's age
> ...


Seems to be roughly what they are doing in the comics right now, but makes still not much sense imo. If they are really going back to a 15 year time line Bruce should be close to 40 and Dick and Barbara shoould be in their late 20s.

And Tims age make no sense. With Damian being appearently already Robin for 3 years, there is no way that Tim is only 16, and a 3 or 4 year age gap between him and Jason makes also no sense.

Btw. Helena's age seems also odd, in the pre flashpoint she was roughly Dick's age and younger than Barbara and Dinah. In Rebirth it was said that her family was killed 20 years ago which would make her roughly 28, so she would be the older than Barbara, but imo still way to young for the Director of Spyral.

----------


## Zaresh

> Pretty sure you're about right for everyone. Bruce is technically in his 30s, but as of Endgame/Superheavy, his body is much, much younger - about 28 - because of Snyder's fake Lazarus pit.


I'm recalling someone telling me that everyone has been aged 5 years for Rebirth back in middle 2017, calculations made by what happened in Titans at the time. I would say Bruce is strongly in the second half of the 30 if not in his 40, really. I cannot back up my statement with the facts, but I swear it made sense at the time.

----------


## phantom1592

I don't think Jason should be much older than Tim. Jason was killed in duty and then Batman got reckless... and it was only a couple of months between Death in the Family and Lonely Place of Dying. So whatever age they decide Tim is at... I would only add 1-2 years on for Jason...

Physically it should be even less what with his 'dead' time.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think Jason should be much older than Tim. Jason was killed in duty and then Batman got reckless... and it was only a couple of months between Death in the Family and Lonely Place of Dying. So whatever age they decide Tim is at... I would only add 1-2 years on for Jason...


Exactly. 
The only option to you could make this Jason beeing much older than Tim and almost Dicks age logically work, is having Jason become Robin at a much higher age than the others, but that is not in line with the original comics, and does imo a disservice to the character.


Btw. do I see that correctly that in the Injustice Universe Tim was due to the Phantom Zone in the end younger than Damian?

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm recalling someone telling me that everyone has been aged 5 years for Rebirth back in middle 2017, calculations made by what happened in Titans at the time. I would say Bruce is strongly in the second half of the 30 if not in his 40, really. I cannot back up my statement with the facts, but I swear it made sense at the time.


If everyone were 5 years older, Tim would be 21, and Damian 15. That is obviously not the case.

----------


## Zaresh

> If everyone were 5 years older, Tim would be 21, and Damian 15. That is obviously not the case.


I guess you are right.

----------


## KrustyKid

bc4113b929a4bf2b11ca710213e08c82.jpg

Damian though, lol

----------


## CPSparkles

> bc4113b929a4bf2b11ca710213e08c82.jpg
> 
> Damian though, lol


Damian and Jason in this lol 
Why doesn't Dick take that smoke away from Jason? It's unhealthy for kids to smoke or play with knives for that matter. Dick is a bad childminder

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Damian and Jason in this lol 
> Why doesn't Dick take that smoke away from Jason? It's unhealthy for kids to smoke or play with knives for that matter. Dick is a bad childminder


Actually the weird thing is that Dick's been the best at keeping the Robins safe when he's with them. Jason, Tim and Damian were always minded when Nightwing took them out. Tim brought some of that to when he was working with Secret back in YJ. 

Okay so...apparently Kate Kane is 27 according to her new preview in Batwoman. Which, because of the whole funeral thing, and implications there, means that she's a year younger than Bruce, putting him in line with the 28 age that his body is right now. I'm guessing they did that for a reason. 

Oh a thought, and it's something that has been bugging me since YJ. Okay so, Tim was dating Steph during part of his time in Young Justice. I can't recall at the moment but did that fact ever come up where either girl found out about the other? I know in YJ it kinda didn't. But I don't know if in Robin Secret was ever brought up at all, or if Dixon was just ignoring that possible romance thing going on over in YJ. I never got all of Tim's original Robin run so, I'm missing chunks of it.

----------


## TheCape

> Actually the weird thing is that Dick's been the best at keeping the Robins safe when he's with them. Jason, Tim and Damian were always minded when Nightwing took them out. Tim brought some of that to when he was working with Secret back in YJ. 
> 
> Okay so...apparently Kate Kane is 27 according to her new preview in Batwoman. Which, because of the whole funeral thing, and implications there, means that she's a year younger than Bruce, putting him in line with the 28 age that his body is right now. I'm guessing they did that for a reason. 
> 
> Oh a thought, and it's something that has been bugging me since YJ. Okay so, Tim was dating Steph during part of his time in Young Justice. I can't recall at the moment but did that fact ever come up where either girl found out about the other? I know in YJ it kinda didn't. But I don't know if in Robin Secret was ever brought up at all, or if Dixon was just ignoring that possible romance thing going on over in YJ. I never got all of Tim's original Robin run so, I'm missing chunks of it.


Dixon.barely mentioned YJ in his run, he liked to keep most of hos dtuff self contained in the bat-universe.

----------


## TheCape

> bc4113b929a4bf2b11ca710213e08c82.jpg
> 
> Damian though, lol


This image always make me laught,.specially for Damian.

----------


## Aahz

> Oh a thought, and it's something that has been bugging me since YJ. Okay so, Tim was dating Steph during part of his time in Young Justice. I can't recall at the moment but did that fact ever come up where either girl found out about the other? I know in YJ it kinda didn't. But I don't know if in Robin Secret was ever brought up at all, or if Dixon was just ignoring that possible romance thing going on over in YJ. I never got all of Tim's original Robin run so, I'm missing chunks of it.


Usually the writers of the solo ignore what happens in the team books and the other way around.

----------


## Assam

> Oh a thought, and it's something that has been bugging me since YJ. Okay so, Tim was dating Steph during part of his time in Young Justice. I can't recall at the moment but did that fact ever come up where either girl found out about the other? *I know in YJ it kinda didn't.* But I don't know if in Robin Secret was ever brought up at all, or if Dixon was just ignoring that possible romance thing going on over in YJ. I never got all of Tim's original Robin run so, I'm missing chunks of it.


In YJ, there was an entire issue revolving around Secret learning about Steph and trying to kill her.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## KrustyKid

All that red though...

tumblr_p855ipStL21u3xbigo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Mataza

Man, i just love that Red Robin costume.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Man, i just love that Red Robin costume.


Yep, far better than the current which just seems like a 'Robin' costume

----------


## failo.legendkiller

No, I never loved the hood, looks like Batman without ears!
N52 was ok for me except the wings.
Rebirth one it's a great costume, one of the best, but now it's outdated and meaningless, only nostalgic. It Reflects the status Tim is now, living of past glory without a true purpose and position in the family.

----------


## Restingvoice

I like the wings. It's very functional. Armor, weapon, and glider all in one device. 
The current one I like the least because it's too similar to his old Robin costume. It's weird.
I also don't like the cowl of Red Robin but everything else in that costume is fine.

----------


## KrustyKid

> No, I never loved the hood, looks like Batman without ears!
> N52 was ok for me except the wings.
> *Rebirth* one it's a great costume, one of the best, but now it's outdated and meaningless, only nostalgic. It Reflects the status Tim is now, living of past glory without a true purpose and position in the family.


That's the problem with the current suit, it's just.. Robin. Nothing screams Red Robin about it at all. That's my only problem with it and why I'd take the Pre-52 look over it. At least in that case him and Damian aren't repping such similar schemes in apparel.

----------


## scary harpy

> I like the wings. It's very functional. Armor, weapon, and glider all in one device. 
> The current one I like the least because it's too similar to his old Robin costume. It's weird.
> I also don't like the cowl of Red Robin but everything else in that costume is fine.


I liked the wings too. They differentiated Tim from the other Robins.




> That's the problem with the current suit, it's just.. Robin. Nothing screams Red Robin about it at all. That's my only problem with it and why I'd take the Pre-52 look over it. At least in that case him and Damian aren't repping such similar schemes in apparel.


Red Robin was Dick Grayson in Kingdom Come (and that's where the name should stay...unless a villain wants it.)

The current suit screams "afterthought" because TPTB clearly had no idea what do with Tim now that Damian is Robin. The name screams: RED ROBIN, YUCK!

----------


## Restingvoice

> The current suit screams "afterthought" because TPTB clearly had no idea what do with Tim now that Damian is Robin. The name screams: RED ROBIN, YUCK!


No, that's not it. They put Tim in old Robin suit copy because they want to give signal to people that Tim is Robin. 

New 52 beat people on the head with "Tim is not Robin" so when Rebirth began they put him in a design calls back to his Robin days while with putting him in a team with Cass and Steph. It's sending a message that says "yes, he is Robin". An acknowledgement of the past and a promotional material to attract people who was turned off by New 52 mandate. 

Then they brought back A Lonely Place of Dying, which confirms it. 

Now that's done, though, they ought to change it because the costume did its job.

----------


## Aioros22

> I liked the wings too. They differentiated Tim from the other Robins.
> 
> 
> 
> Red Robin was Dick Grayson in Kingdom Come (and that's where the name should stay...unless a villain wants it.)
> 
> The current suit screams "afterthought" because TPTB clearly had no idea what do with Tim now that Damian is Robin. The name screams: RED ROBIN, YUCK!


Twice the afterthought when Jason had the suit before him as well in the previous continuity.

----------


## TheCape

> Twice the afterthought when Jason had the suit before him as well in the previous continuity.


True, but i'm pretty sure that only Jason fans remenber that, also technically speaking Tim was the fourth person in using the suit because Ulysess also had it for a while.

----------


## Zaresh

> True, but i'm pretty sure that only Jason fans remenber that, also technically speaking Tim was the fourth person in using the suit because Ulysess also had it for a while.


Countdown was terrible, but the part with Jason, Donna and Kyle was entertaining. I'm guessing that, at least, their fans do remember that part (but then, I'm a Jason fan, so...).

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Personally I like the idea of him having the Animated series black and red suit on for Red Robin, and I don't mind the name, the wings though...eh....I like the idea of them, but they should have been more bat wing like rather then bird wings if they wanted them to glide. Or make them more like Falcons.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I liked the wings too. They differentiated Tim from the other Robins.


Maybe the wings was nice aestethically but watching Tim litterally flying around wasn't the best for me. We can leave those abilities to other franchises like Superman or GL, and the cape is a trait that better fit a batfamily member.
I really don't need Tim to be differentiated from others beacause he can fly.

----------


## Mataza

New 52 Tim looks like a completely different character. And is a completely different character, so theres that.

----------


## Mataza

This should have been a thing for a long time.

----------


## TheCape

> This should have been a thing for a long time.


I love it  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Loved that piece since I first saw it.  Set Post-Convergence, this is generally what I think of when I envision where the original versions of these characters ultimately ended up. After the massive amounts of crap they were put through, they got their damn happy ending.

----------


## godisawesome

It *is* amazing just how much sincere and genuinely wonderful little character moments you could get out of these three characters in the context of a Pre-Flashpoint "down time" moment. They had so much weight in their friendships thanks to so many good issues and arcs that even a totally silent panel could communicate volumes.

Speaking of Pre-Flashpoint....

...Am I alone in hoping that OMAC Tim in Detective right now is beaten in such a way that Tim gets his Pre-Flashpoint memories and starts tackling those implications as his new schtick, kind of like we've discussed before? I mean, they clearly established in the last TEC issue that OMAC Tim and the General are operating off of Tomorrow Tim's timeline with the girls seeing their old IDs. And over in Flash, Wally's become fascinating again thanks to his near-schizophrenic struggle with remembering everything.

Is it just too much to hope we'd get that?

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It *is* amazing just how much sincere and genuinely wonderful little character moments you could get out of these three characters in the context of a Pre-Flashpoint "down time" moment. They had so much weight in their friendships thanks to so many good issues and arcs that even a totally silent panel could communicate volumes.
> 
> Speaking of Pre-Flashpoint....
> 
> ...Am I alone in hoping that OMAC Tim in Detective right now is beaten in such a way that Tim gets his Pre-Flashpoint memories and starts tackling those implications as his new schtick, kind of like we've discussed before? I mean, they clearly established in the last TEC issue that OMAC Tim and the General are operating off of Tomorrow Tim's timeline with the girls seeing their old IDs. And over in Flash, Wally's become fascinating again thanks to his near-schizophrenic struggle with remembering everything.
> 
> Is it just too much to hope we'd get that?


Hell yeah, give Tim a big ole mystery.

----------


## Assam

> ...Am I alone in hoping that OMAC Tim in Detective right now is beaten in such a way that Tim gets his Pre-Flashpoint memories and starts tackling those implications as his new schtick, kind of like we've discussed before? I mean, they clearly established in the last TEC issue that OMAC Tim and the General are operating off of Tomorrow Tim's timeline with the girls seeing their old IDs. And over in Flash, Wally's become fascinating again thanks to his near-schizophrenic struggle with remembering everything.
> 
> Is it just too much to hope we'd get that?


I'm predicting that he won't get his memories back, but, as an OMAC, he'll see the Pre-FP timeline, leading him and Steph out of Gotham to go find his friends.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...31309364363264

 I get the feeling that along with setting up Outsiders, Hill's run will also be wrapping up Tynion's, since the latter really doesn't have the time to do it. Sending Tim and Steph off to YJ, Azrael to JLO and wherever, if anywhere, for Kate and Luke.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'm predicting that he won't get his memories back, but, as an OMAC, he'll see the Pre-FP timeline, leading him and Steph out of Gotham to go find his friends.


So you mean he'll know that the events happened to him but not remember them as "his" memories? 

I can dig that. 

I just want him to have this disconnect between wanting to just call it quits to make the most of his second chance with his family and friends he previously lost, but also knowing that he can't because of a higher cause.

----------


## Mataza

In theory Tim already got his memories back when he turned into OMAC, but he also turned into Batman of Tomorrow.

----------


## godisawesome

> In theory Tim already got his memories back when he turned into OMAC, but he also turned into Batman of Tomorrow.


He's explicitly been exposed to Batman of Tomorrow's memories, even down to the fates of his friends, which are presumably the same memories that General exposed to Cass and Steph, which explicitly featured Pre-Flashpoint Batgirl identities for both ladies. And since Tynion first started playing with the Batman of Tomorrow idea began with confirmation that there was a noticeable difference between the two timelines, but also that they were now connected...

He *should* know everything, now.




> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...31309364363264
> 
>  I get the feeling that along with setting up Outsiders, Hill's run will also be wrapping up Tynion's, since the latter really doesn't have the time to do it. Sending Tim and Steph off to YJ, Azrael to JLO and wherever, if anywhere, for Kate and Luke.


Impulse showed up in the Flash's last issue, so they're definitely setting up a context in which YJ can arrive with the timeline mystery. And a timeline mystery would definitively separate YJ from Titans and Teen Titans.

----------


## KrustyKid

Jason is the only one clearly looking at the camera;

tumblr_p7ivv5vFVg1u3xbigo1_1280.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> He's explicitly been exposed to Batman of Tomorrow's memories, even down to the fates of his friends, which are presumably the same memories that General exposed to Cass and Steph, which explicitly featured Pre-Flashpoint Batgirl identities for both ladies. And since Tynion first started playing with the Batman of Tomorrow idea began with confirmation that there was a noticeable difference between the two timelines, but also that they were now connected...
> 
> He *should* know everything, now.
> 
> 
> 
> Impulse showed up in the Flash's last issue, so they're definitely setting up a context in which YJ can arrive with the timeline mystery. And a timeline mystery would definitively separate YJ from Titans and Teen Titans.


Yeah, i think that is obvious that they are planning something with the 90s generation, but they are taking a long time to get there.

----------


## Mataza

I wouldnt be surprised if the 2 years plan became a 5 years plan. Its already looking like it will be 3 years at least.

tumblr_oqmpgdc2Tz1rrmxy1o1_r1_1280.jpg
Edit for a drawing. Looks cool, Jason smoking also kind of fits.

----------


## phantom1592

> Edit for a drawing. Looks cool, Jason smoking also kind of fits.


Ehhh… Anyone who had to put up with Batman's physical training who then decides to pick up smoking doesn't really fit for me. Characters like Wolverine or Johnny Blaze... or even Gambit who get by with powers or who AREN"T expected to be able to run a mile in 4 minutes... THEM I can sometimes see smoking. 


The Batfamily fighting for physical perfection? No chance. It just reeks of 'I'm the cool rebel one'.  Batman smoked a pipe back in the 40's... but times being what they are now? ANY of the robins should know better.

----------


## Mataza

Batmans eating habits are far worse for his performance than smoking would, the subtext being "im so selfless i dont even waste time eating". I dont think we are suposed to think about it beyond the "im the cool rebel one".

----------


## Mataza

Hah, what the hell.

----------


## Caivu

Hill seems to confirm that Tim is in his run:

Screenshot_20180522-113954.jpg

That's at least less ambiguous than it had been.

----------


## The Dying Detective

My hope is that Hill can turn Tim around even if it is only for one arc.

----------


## millernumber1

> My hope is that Hill can turn Tim around even if it is only for one arc.


Well. I personally think Tim is fine, except for not having a book. And Hill saying that Tynion did excellent work with Tim seems like he probably agrees with me.  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well. I personally think Tim is fine, except for not having a book. And Hill saying that Tynion did excellent work with Tim seems like he probably agrees with me.


I mean he just at the moment doesn't read like the Tim Drake of Post-Crisis whose intellect was more strategic than technological which is how I prefer Tim to be written though but it's often a matter of opinion.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I just read 'Tec 881, makes me think Tim and Steph are off to find "Connor."   Sounds like a Young Justice lead in to me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I just read 'Tec 881, makes me think Tim and Steph are off to find "Connor."   Sounds like a Young Justice lead in to me.


You don't say but Hill will be using Tim though. But it's comics what do i expect?

----------


## Rac7d*

WHEN is tim gonna become Harvest

----------


## Restingvoice

> WHEN is tim gonna become Harvest


Oh, do you read Tessatechitea too?

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, do you read Tessatechitea too?


I used to read them, but then they put so much behind a paywall, and I didn't feel like paying for only about half of the reviews I'd read.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, do you read Tessatechitea too?


What's Tessatechitea?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> You don't say but Hill will be using Tim though. But it's comics what do i expect?


Has there been indication of that on his social media?   It has not been in the solicits.   I hope so.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Has there been indication of that on his social media?   It has not been in the solicits.   I hope so.


It's on Hill's Twitter account the picture is at the top of this page.

----------


## Mataza

He will probably use it either on a flashback or a couple pages at most, as exposition.

----------


## millernumber1

> What's Tessatechitea?


A reviewer on tumblr and patreon.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A reviewer on tumblr and patreon.


Oh well thanks I'd look into him but if I have to pay to see all the reviews I can't say I can afford it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh well thanks I'd look into him but if I have to pay to see all the reviews I can't say I can afford it.


They're really snarky. I've enjoyed a couple of them, but they can be a bit overly nasty, which is another reason I didn't feel like paying.

----------


## Mataza

Why would anyone pay to read what someone else thought of a thing you can already see for yourself?

----------


## millernumber1

> Why would anyone pay to read what someone else thought of a thing you can already see for yourself?


Why would anyone go to a forum to read posts about a thing they can already see for themselves?

It's just another form of community.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They're really snarky. I've enjoyed a couple of them, but they can be a bit overly nasty, which is another reason I didn't feel like paying.


Overly nasty how? Its kind of par for the course for many online personas.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why would anyone pay to read what someone else thought of a thing you can already see for yourself?


It's kinda like paying for a show. People pay it not for the snark, joke, commentary and other comedic things. So not for the comic, or news, or games, but because they like the commentator.  
I don't pay it myself. Just read the free ones.

----------


## Assam

https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics

Welp, looks like Tynion isn't gonna be writing Tim _or_ Young Justice.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics
> 
> Welp, looks like Tynion isn't gonna be writing Tim _or_ Young Justice.


I know you won't reply to me but your information has vanished.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I know you won't reply to me but your information has vanished.


https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics

----------


## DragonPiece

> https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics


Very insightful post. There were plans for a red robin series after death of the family, but James had to do red hood and the outlaws instead because that book was more important.  Definitely wonder how different the book would be if he didn't have to tie into Rebirth plotlines and kill of tim. 

And yeah, this is pretty much confirmation there was never plans for Tynion writing Tim after this. I am glad there are at least plans though.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics


Thank you very much and well I did not see that coming nevertheless though at least DC is not going to get rid of Tim.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Thank you very much and well I did not see that coming nevertheless though at least DC is not going to get rid of Tim.


You're welcome  :Smile:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Very insightful post. There were plans for a red robin series after death of the family, but James had to do red hood and the outlaws instead because that book was more important.  Definitely wonder how different the book would be if he didn't have to tie into Rebirth plotlines and kill of tim. 
> 
> And yeah, this is pretty much confirmation there was never plans for Tynion writing Tim after this. I am glad there are at least plans though.


I find the idea that the story Tynion told in RHATO, which was completely and utterly terrible BTW, was far more important than starting up a new solo direction for Tim to be laughable and I'm saying that as a fan of RHATO. The book really isn't all that important to DC even. They don't promote it and it only gets passing mentions at panels if at all so I doubt that anyone at DC felt it was really all that important at the time. The only thing that was important was that it needed a fill in writer at the time and they certainly could have found someone else for the job.

----------


## Mataza

Is it me or the latest Detective felt like a repudiation of everything Nicieza.

----------


## TheCape

> Is it me or the latest Detective felt like a repudiation of everything Nicieza.


In what sense?

----------


## Mataza

Control freak Tim got chopped to pieces, put in a box and sent to Abu Dhabi.

----------


## godisawesome

I don't think there's nearly enough internal monologuing, strategizing, sardonic humor, civilian life storytelling or large enough faux-harem of beautiful but dangerous women torn between kissing his face and kicking his ass to really repudiate FabNic's run.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The whole super-science dark-future thing was more Geoff Johns in Teen Titans.

The control freak thing was addressed, like you said, but FabNic was far from the only one to deal with that.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't think there's nearly enough internal monologuing, strategizing, sardonic humor, civilian life storytelling or large enough faux-harem of beautiful but dangerous women torn between kissing his face and kicking his ass to really repudiate FabNic's run. 
> 
> The whole super-science dark-future thing was more Geoff Johns in Teen Titans.
> 
> The control freak thing was addressed, like you said, but FabNic was far from the only one to deal with that.


Nice burn!  :Smile:

----------


## Mataza

Man, Tim could really work those harems, and they fit the character so well.

----------


## millernumber1

> Man, Tim could really work those harems, and they fit the character so well.


Serious? Or joke?

----------


## TheCape

> Man, Tim could really work those harems, and they fit the character so well.


Meh, i always thougth that it was an overplayed joke, it was funny at first, but it got lame after a while, besides i don't want him to go for the same road than Dick in that regard.

----------


## godisawesome

The "harem" thing is an exagerration, but it *did* work when Tim wasn't trying to attract attention or flirt and had these hilariously nerdy reactions as he tries to extricate himself from the clutches of the one or two girls who are attracted to him and having hilariously awkward chemistry with young ladies who aren't actively trying to flirt with him. 

Ra's's sister was a bit too much, but I liked Lynx, Tam, and Pru. It works when he's an innocent chick magnet; he could never be a lady killer.

----------


## Mataza

> Serious? Or joke?


Both. The character works well with multiple romantic interests. This could be seen as early as Stephs first appearances on his solo.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The "harem" thing is an exagerration, but it *did* work when Tim wasn't trying to attract attention or flirt and had these hilariously nerdy reactions as he tries to extricate himself from the clutches of the one or two girls who are attracted to him and having hilariously awkward chemistry with young ladies who aren't actively trying to flirt with him. 
> 
> Ra's's sister was a bit too much, but I liked Lynx, Tam, and Pru. It works when he's an innocent chick magnet; he could never be a lady killer.


I don't think Prudence qualified as a love interest since it's obvious there was nothing but respect between them little else.

----------


## Mataza

It was more than respect, it was loyalty. But yes, i agree. Pru wasnt part of the harem.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It was more than respect, it was loyalty. But yes, i agree. Pru wasnt part of the harem.


Also neither was Ra's sister because rape hardly qualifies as someone having any actual interest in a person romantically. So the only ones who had any real interest in Tim was Lynx and Tam. Pretty small for a harem if you ask me.

----------


## Mataza

When i said harem i was mostly making reference to earlier in his career, with arrowette, secret, arianna, steph, darla, etc.
In Red Robin it was him being interested in girls that mostly wanted to kill him, even the ones that liked him. Which put the whole "harem" thing Tim used to have going on on its head. It was super fun. Either figuratively, or literally.

Pru, Lynx, Promise, Maat, Cass. They all wanted to kill him at some point, or at least was lead to believe that was the case.

Then you have Steph and Tam, who figuratively wanted to kill him because of him just being him.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> When i said harem i was mostly making reference to earlier in his career, with arrowette, secret, arianna, steph, darla, etc.
> In Red Robin it was him being interested in girls that mostly wanted to kill him, even the ones that liked him. Which put the whole "harem" thing Tim used to have going on on its head. It was super fun. Either figuratively, or literally.
> 
> Pru, Lynx, Promise, Maat, Cass. They all wanted to kill him at some point, or at least was lead to believe that was the case.
> 
> Then you have Steph and Tam, who figuratively wanted to kill him because of him just being him.


Sheesh even in his Robin days Tim had a knack for attracting women like it or not. Arrowette was a really out there case though. But yeah Red Robin turned the whole up to eleven with all the girls who have tried to attack him. Though it's not so much as girls that want to kill as they have attacked him i.e. Tam's kissing attack.

----------


## godisawesome

> I don't think Prudence qualified as a love interest since it's obvious there was nothing but respect between them little else.


It's why I used faux-Harem; Pru was kind of like Promise, in that he occasionally had somewhat awkward interactions with them centered around them being pretty girls willing to throw a few flirty lines his way or who he met in a...compromising situation, but there was no outright attraction factor being acted on. It's definetly anime-like in those moments.

Now, Lynx, on the other hand...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's why I used faux-Harem; Pru was kind of like Promise, in that he occasionally had somewhat awkward interactions with them centered around them being pretty girls willing to throw a few flirty lines his way or who he met in a...compromising situation, but there was no outright attraction factor being acted on. It's definetly anime-like in those moments.
> 
> Now, Lynx, on the other hand...


Seems like Fabian Nicieza was watching too much anime and tried to fit into a more pleasing context that wouldn't get him and DC in trouble. Lynx was probably the only girl apart from Tam to show genuine interest in Tim and their interactions were interesting to put it lightly. To this day I am still unhappy that the Lynx plot was never truly resolved but given how Tynion spoke of  big plans for Tim I would say there is room to reintroduce Lynx but it has to be done perfectly.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yeah, Pru.............  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems like Fabian Nicieza was watching too much anime and tried to fit into a more pleasing context that wouldn't get him and DC in trouble. Lynx was probably the only girl apart from Tam to show genuine interest in Tim and their interactions were interesting to put it lightly. To this day I am still unhappy that the Lynx plot was never truly resolved but given how Tynion spoke of  big plans for Tim I would say there is room to reintroduce Lynx but it has to be done perfectly.


I think this discussion has been pretty solid in exploring why I dislike the why FabNic handled the female attention Tim got. Yes, Tim has always had a fair number of girls who liked him, but he was always a bit awkward and earnest about it. FabNic made him much more of a ladies man, and that really annoyed me. Plus, there was a bit too much focus on it, making it feel a bit unbalanced.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think this discussion has been pretty solid in exploring why I dislike the why FabNic handled the female attention Tim got. Yes, Tim has always had a fair number of girls who liked him, but he was always a bit awkward and earnest about it. FabNic made him much more of a ladies man, and that really annoyed me. Plus, there was a bit too much focus on it, making it feel a bit unbalanced.


Well for all the focus Nicieza gave Tim's love life in his Red Robin run they amounted to nothing Tam ended whatever good ties there were between them. He and Lynx got nowhere but based on the panels Shadowgirl showed well Christopher Yost was mildly guilty of it as well he was the one that set the stage for a romance between Tim and Tam. And Bryan Q. Miller played into that as well when he nearly had Tim and Stephanie kiss though them getting back together would have probably helped avoid the mess that came later. I don't think Nicieza coompletely avoided Tim's awkwardness since he did play into how Tim wanted to compartmentalise all aspects of his life and his uncertainty of even having a normal life at all. But what makes you think Nicieza turned Tim into a ladies man though?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well for all the focus Nicieza gave Tim's love life in his Red Robin run they amounted to nothing Tam ended whatever good ties there were between them. He and Lynx got nowhere but based on the panels Shadowgirl showed well Christopher Yost was mildly guilty of it as well he was the one that set the stage for a romance between Tim and Tam. And Bryan Q. Miller played into that as well when he nearly had Tim and Stephanie kiss though them getting back together would have probably helped avoid the mess that came later. I don't think Nicieza coompletely avoided Tim's awkwardness since he did play into how Tim wanted to compartmentalise all aspects of his life and his uncertainty of even having a normal life at all. But what makes you think Nicieza turned Tim into a ladies man though?


I think Yost setting us Tam as a potential long-term love interest is fine. You usually do that with an ongoing series. And BQM using Steph and Tim's lifelong attraction and history is justified because you have to acknowledge it if you're going to have the characters interact (and I'm really irked at the way FabNic handled it - having Tim ogle Steph training as Batgirl and say "I get the hormonal tension now" as if he hadn't dated and loved Steph for years). The way FabNic handled Lynx and the whole Promise situation felt a lot more like teen guy fantasies than, say, what Dixon did with Tim and Arianna or Tim and Steph. Tim seemed a lot more smooth than I think he should have been. You could argue (and I'm sure FabNic did) that Tim had matured by that point - but I don't think it was an interesting development.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think Yost setting us Tam as a potential long-term love interest is fine. You usually do that with an ongoing series. And BQM using Steph and Tim's lifelong attraction and history is justified because you have to acknowledge it if you're going to have the characters interact (and I'm really irked at the way FabNic handled it - having Tim ogle Steph training as Batgirl and say "I get the hormonal tension now" as if he hadn't dated and loved Steph for years). The way FabNic handled Lynx and the whole Promise situation felt a lot more like teen guy fantasies than, say, what Dixon did with Tim and Arianna or Tim and Steph. Tim seemed a lot more smooth than I think he should have been. You could argue (and I'm sure FabNic did) that Tim had matured by that point - but I don't think it was an interesting development.


A shame though currently there is no way for Tam and Tim to interact and she looks way older than her Post-Crisis counterpart. I see what what you mean regarding Tim and Stephnie's attraction though I'm not quite sure what Stephanie was getting at when she said that Tim was not good for her at that moment. I agree having Tim ogle Stephanie seemed like a throwaway of no importance if only to make Tim's situation between the fact he liked both Lynx and Tam more awkward. If Nicieza handled Lynx more effectively I think we wouldn't have been in this mess. He should have followed up on the plot and maybe end it with Lynx and Tim sharing one final kiss and goodbye forever I guess. Tim sure didn't act all that smooth or mature when Tam was teasing him over their so-called engagement. That was probably more true to Tim's more awkward behaviour towards girls. Before Red Robin Nicieza handled Tim didn't he?

----------


## millernumber1

> A shame though currently there is no way for Tam and Tim to interact and she looks way older than her Post-Crisis counterpart. I see what what you mean regarding Tim and Stephnie's attraction though I'm not quite sure what Stephanie was getting at when she said that Tim was not good for her at that moment. I agree having Tim ogle Stephanie seemed like a throwaway of no importance if only to make Tim's situation between the fact he liked both Lynx and Tam more awkward. If Nicieza handled Lynx more effectively I think we wouldn't have been in this mess. He should have followed up on the plot and maybe end it with Lynx and Tim sharing one final kiss and goodbye forever I guess. Tim sure didn't act all that smooth or mature when Tam was teasing him over their so-called engagement. That was probably more true to Tim's more awkward behaviour towards girls. Before Red Robin Nicieza handled Tim didn't he?


Since I'm a die-hard TimSteph shipper, I don't mind Tam not being a love interest for Tim. I'm mostly really glad Tynion fixed that horrible storyline in Batwing where she was in a coma. And is being awesome with Luke.  :Smile: 

I think Steph was still really adjusting to being Batgirl, being a solo hero with serious support from the community and Batman's family, instead of being an outsider and a sidekick. She didn't want to fall back into being a sidekick or "just a love interest", and I think both of them needed to grow a bit before they could be in a healthy relationship. But I was glad of the almost-kiss, because it acknowledged that history and (I think) honored it without being bound by it.

Did Tam tease Tim about his engagement in Yost's run or FabNic's? I thought that was all Yost.

FabNic wrote Robin 175-183, the last arc. It had some good moments and nice art, but I think it's terribly incoherent when you try to read it as a larger narrative. Plus, despite fans loving Tim taking down Shiva, I still hold that up as a shining example of how even when you're not writing hacker-fu Tim, you still need to be a good plotter.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Since I'm a die-hard TimSteph shipper, I don't mind Tam not being a love interest for Tim. I'm mostly really glad Tynion fixed that horrible storyline in Batwing where she was in a coma. And is being awesome with Luke. 
> 
> I think Steph was still really adjusting to being Batgirl, being a solo hero with serious support from the community and Batman's family, instead of being an outsider and a sidekick. She didn't want to fall back into being a sidekick or "just a love interest", and I think both of them needed to grow a bit before they could be in a healthy relationship. But I was glad of the almost-kiss, because it acknowledged that history and (I think) honored it without being bound by it.
> 
> Did Tam tease Tim about his engagement in Yost's run or FabNic's? I thought that was all Yost.
> 
> FabNic wrote Robin 175-183, the last arc. It had some good moments and nice art, but I think it's terribly incoherent when you try to read it as a larger narrative. Plus, despite fans loving Tim taking down Shiva, I still hold that up as a shining example of how even when you're not writing hacker-fu Tim, you still need to be a good plotter.


What's really weird about Tam though is that she's now basically Pepper Pots while Luke is Iron Man sort of. But yeah I'm at least glad Tam is free from her coma. You do raise a good point and to top it all off Bryan Q. Miller still had to deal with the attraction Stephanie and Nick Gage had not that setting Barbara and Nick up multiple times did anything really to prevent that. I believe Tam teasing Tim over their 'engagement' happened in Nicieza's run on issue sixteen I believe. IF anything Tam seemed more adjusted to the idea of even marrying him than Tim was. Ah the infamous poisoning Shiva to make her easier for Tim to take her down moment at least hacker-fu can be done on the spot whereas what Tim did to defeat Shiva needed better setting up. I'd take hacker-fu over that honestly.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

So, latest detective. 

Young Justice: Lost let's get it.

----------


## KrustyKid

Lol, so true;

tumblr_p9ielw1jmb1uni0bzo1_1280.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> Lol, so true;
> 
> tumblr_p9ielw1jmb1uni0bzo1_1280.jpg



Nobody should trust in their future self, they just crash in your couch and tell you how much their lifes suck because you made the wrong decisions and fallen some drug spyral , screw those guys hard  :Stick Out Tongue: .

(And yes i'm making a reference to that South Park episode  :Big Grin: ).

----------


## TheCape

> So, latest detective. 
> 
> Young Justice: Lost let's get it.


The most likely outcome, but i wonder in what book would be adressed.

----------


## Mataza

> I think this discussion has been pretty solid in exploring why I dislike the why FabNic handled the female attention Tim got.


To be fair, it didnt get nearly enough attention. Tim Wayne, owner of Wayne Enterprises, handsome, smart, young, athletic and full of confidence, also a man setting out to save gotham and then the world from gangs, known in china as the superboy CEO. He was probably quite literally the single most eligible bachelor in the entire DC universe.

----------


## Mataza

Recently started playing DC legends on my mobile, and i started playing during the Red Robin PvP event (lucky me) so i got to unlock it. Slowly building the character up. He is an amazing support character with mediocre damage, that purges buffs and gets a stupid amount of free attacks when developed.
Dont like the Red Robin suit, but the legendary Red Robin suit look great. Gonna be a while before i get there tho.




The game isnt amazing, but theres a joy to playing with your favorite characters. Trying to get Wonder Woman on my team, and investing in Hal as well.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Recently started playing DC legends on my mobile, and i started playing during the Red Robin PvP event (lucky me) so i got to unlock it. Slowly building the character up. He is an amazing support character with mediocre damage, that purges buffs and gets a stupid amount of free attacks when developed.
> Dont like the Red Robin suit, but the legendary Red Robin suit look great. Gonna be a while before i get there tho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The game isnt amazing, but theres a joy to playing with your favorite characters. Trying to get Wonder Woman on my team, and investing in Hal as well.


I haven't tried this yet, perhaps I will at some point.

----------


## Frontier

> Recently started playing DC legends on my mobile, and i started playing during the Red Robin PvP event (lucky me) so i got to unlock it. Slowly building the character up. He is an amazing support character with mediocre damage, that purges buffs and gets a stupid amount of free attacks when developed.
> Dont like the Red Robin suit, but the legendary Red Robin suit look great. Gonna be a while before i get there tho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The game isnt amazing, but theres a joy to playing with your favorite characters. Trying to get Wonder Woman on my team, and investing in Hal as well.


I actually like the costume. I think Tim works well in red and black  :Smile: .

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I actually like the costume. I think Tim works well in red and black .


DC should give this costume to Tim in the comics his current one is simply a standard Robin suit with two Rs on it. It's really boring and uncreative and feels symbolic at least to me that Tim is stuck as a teen forever.

----------


## millernumber1

> Recently started playing DC legends on my mobile, and i started playing during the Red Robin PvP event (lucky me) so i got to unlock it. Slowly building the character up. He is an amazing support character with mediocre damage, that purges buffs and gets a stupid amount of free attacks when developed.
> Dont like the Red Robin suit, but the legendary Red Robin suit look great. Gonna be a while before i get there tho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The game isnt amazing, but theres a joy to playing with your favorite characters. Trying to get Wonder Woman on my team, and investing in Hal as well.


I love all the awesome characters and models in the game, but I just don't enjoy the gameplay well enough to sink that much time into it...plus, I feel like to really be good at it, I'd have to use characters I don't like, since I'd only want Batfamily dudes, and I feel that wouldn't balance well. But I just don't want to use Lanterns or Superman. Wonder Woman might be the only one I'd want who isn't a street level vigilante.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I love all the awesome characters and models in the game, but I just don't enjoy the gameplay well enough to sink that much time into it...plus, I feel like to really be good at it, I'd have to use characters I don't like, since I'd only want Batfamily dudes, and I feel that wouldn't balance well. But I just don't want to use Lanterns or Superman. Wonder Woman might be the only one I'd want who isn't a street level vigilante.


Well if you want to play the game you have to play it right. And also happy 400th page of the thread that appreciates Tim Drake the everyman Robin.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well if you want to play the game you have to play it right. And also happy 400th page of the thread that appreciates Tim Drake the everyman Robin.


Oooh, good point! 400 pages hooray!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oooh, good point! 400 pages hooray!


Yup 400 pages and i hope going forward this year there will be a more honest attempt by DC to get back the Tim Drake a lot of people are clamouring for I know you don't like him but with Yost out of the comic business the next best thing could be either Chuck Dixon if we're desperate Fabian Nicieza.

----------


## TheCape

Finally we reached 400, hopefully things would be better for Tim next year.

----------


## Mataza

> I love all the awesome characters and models in the game, but I just don't enjoy the gameplay well enough to sink that much time into it...plus, I feel like to really be good at it, I'd have to use characters I don't like, since I'd only want Batfamily dudes, and I feel that wouldn't balance well. But I just don't want to use Lanterns or Superman. Wonder Woman might be the only one I'd want who isn't a street level vigilante.


Actually the meta right now favors a lot of characters you probably like. Wonder Woman the 2 versions of her, (and her mother), Power girl, black cannary, batgirl (babs), huntress, Tim (he is actually one of the strongest characters in the game), harley (not sure if you like her), miss martian, Jason (another of the strongest characters), Bane (not sure if you are a fan). As i said, they just introduced Starfire, no idea if she is any good, clayface is also really good.

----------


## godisawesome

> Recently started playing DC legends on my mobile, and i started playing during the Red Robin PvP event (lucky me) so i got to unlock it. Slowly building the character up. He is an amazing support character with mediocre damage, that purges buffs and gets a stupid amount of free attacks when developed.
> Dont like the Red Robin suit, but the legendary Red Robin suit look great. Gonna be a while before i get there tho.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The game isnt amazing, but theres a joy to playing with your favorite characters. Trying to get Wonder Woman on my team, and investing in Hal as well.


I'm with you; the legendary skin for the character looks a lot cooler. His default version is just another Robin costume, like his current Rebirth look. He's a great support character, but right now I'm irritated because I held off for about two months to try and save myself some money while looking for him, than wound up caving and buying some pieces, but he's now not on sale and only sparingly offered for some small tournmemants once in a blue moon.

And yeah, page 400! Pretty epic! Here's hoping we get some Young Justice related info in the next few months.

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin boys;

tumblr_p93yl6DvBh1xpspbxo1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Bat-Dudes;

83e565647cedf4afcdef45cc7c5f3273.jpg

----------


## Caivu

Batman #50 WIP by J. Scott Campbell:

Screenshot_20180609-155352.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

That's some nice line work there

----------


## SanityOrMadness

Best version of the "RR" (which has been everything from plain text to weird squiggly letters) to date. That one actually looks like a logo.




> I'm with you; the legendary skin for the character looks a lot cooler. His default version is just another Robin costume, like his current Rebirth look.


I think the Alex Ross-based look is pretty awful for Tim - mostly because he doesn't suit the full cowl - but, yeah, the double-R Rebirth suit is a problem as long as he's not "the" Robin. The issue after he came back, with the four Robins against Evil Tim, it was too easy to lose track of which figure was Damien and which was Tim in the fight scene because the costumes were so similar. If he's going to be "Nightwing"ed, they need to move him on from the Robin suit permanently.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually liked his N52 look. Even the wings. The default Legends look, cutting the green and the vast majority of the yellow, would also help, but it still doesn't convey him moving on when he really needs to. And the "Red Robin" name just needs to go

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

How about the Red X?   Still has the Robin nod to it, but X for ex Robin or something.

----------


## godisawesome

> Best version of the "RR" (which has been everything from plain text to weird squiggly letters) to date. That one actually looks like a logo.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Alex Ross-based look is pretty awful for Tim - mostly because he doesn't suit the full cowl - but, yeah, the double-R Rebirth suit is a problem as long as he's not "the" Robin. The issue after he came back, with the four Robins against Evil Tim, it was too easy to lose track of which figure was Damien and which was Tim in the fight scene because the costumes were so similar. If he's going to be "Nightwing"ed, they need to move him on from the Robin suit permanently.
> 
> Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually liked his N52 look. Even the wings. The default Legends look, cutting the green and the vast majority of the yellow, would also help, but it still doesn't convey him moving on when he really needs to. And the "Red Robin" name just needs to go


I tend to believe that if a Robin graduates, he needs some kind of major aesthetic differentiation between the Robin suit and his new one. Sick changes up the color pallet with blue, Jason ditches the entire design philosophy for a biker look, and originally, Tim had the Red Robin cowl to break up his profile. I also like the way it emphasizes his noggin, showcasing his more methodical style when under a good pen, and honestly, the more austere and classical look kind of hearkens back to Tim being originally a reconstruction of the classic sidekick idea, now updated for an older, more mature look--much like Ross's intention for the original design in Kingdom Come.

The New 52 costume had the wings for breaking up his aesthetics, but otherwise the suit was by and large just the Alex Ross design, but put through a 90's X-Men remix, overly busy with pouches and belts everywhere, and replacing the distinctive cowl with a garden variety domino mask. I actually was okay with the wings in concept, but Lobdell seemed to overly fixate on him doing everything with the wings; it was his version of Tynion's holographic wrist computer.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I tend to believe that if a Robin graduates, *he needs some kind of major aesthetic differentiation between the Robin suit and his new one*. Sick changes up the color pallet with blue, Jason ditches the entire design philosophy for a biker look, and originally, Tim had the Red Robin cowl to break up his profile. I also like the way it emphasizes his noggin, showcasing his more methodical style when under a good pen, and honestly, the more austere and classical look kind of hearkens back to Tim being originally a reconstruction of the classic sidekick idea, now updated for an older, more mature look--much like Ross's intention for the original design in Kingdom Come.
> 
> The New 52 costume had the wings for breaking up his aesthetics, but otherwise the suit was by and large just the Alex Ross design, but put through a 90's X-Men remix, overly busy with pouches and belts everywhere, and replacing the distinctive cowl with a garden variety domino mask. I actually was okay with the wings in concept, but Lobdell seemed to overly fixate on him doing everything with the wings; it was his version of Tynion's holographic wrist computer.


I agree with that completely

----------


## Mataza

400 pages, we should be celebrating, but..

2257252669e91955a27b4feb45ad667d--tim-drake-damian-wayne.jpg

Bring back this guy. thanks!

----------


## The Whovian

> 400 pages, we should be celebrating, but..
> 
> 2257252669e91955a27b4feb45ad667d--tim-drake-damian-wayne.jpg
> 
> Bring back this guy. thanks!


I may be in the minority here, but I loved his Red Robin costume. I wish he would go back to it and let Damian wear the Robin costume.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I may be in the minority here, but I loved his Red Robin costume. I wish he would go back to it and let Damian wear the Robin costume.


I loved it for the fact he didn't just look like 'just another Robin'.

----------


## Mataza

Yep, even if he moves to a new identity, i think the cowl should be brought back.

----------


## scary harpy

> I may be in the minority here, but I loved his Red Robin costume. I wish he would go back to it and let Damian wear the Robin costume.





> I loved it for the fact he didn't just look like 'just another Robin'.





> Yep, even if he moves to a new identity, i think the cowl should be brought back.


I thought it looked like Doctor Mid-Nite's costume...but bad.

----------


## Mataza

I think it looks great.

----------


## phantom1592

I liked the costume in Kingdom Come. For Dick. 


For Tim... 1) It's just another borrowed identity. It wasn't a costume designed for him, it was something they just used to use... It's bad enough that he'll always be Robin #3 of 4, but if he 'graduates' into another hand me down outfit... his situation isn't improved. 


and 2) I'm still bitter about him getting booted from being Robin. He didn't even 'decide' he had outgrown it... Other people decided for him. From the moment Damien entered the cave he had that attitude of 'you're wearing my cape'... and then at the end of the day he got it. 


I still say the best costume he ever wore was his 'original' costume. It still evoked the Robin image, but was updated... and the new RR costume is an off branch of that one, so I do love it. but even the name 'Red Robin' only really works if there isn't another Robin running around. Everything just feels like half-measures because they had to shoehorn Damien in and didn't know what to do with Tim....

----------


## Mataza

I really dont think they didnt knew what to do with Tim. Its more about not wanting to do the obvious because it steps on too many toes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I may be in the minority here, but I loved his Red Robin costume. I wish he would go back to it and let Damian wear the Robin costume.


I like the Red Robin costumme i just didn't like the Doctor Mid-Nite-esque cowl. If they bring it back and but change the cowl I'm good.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I like the Red Robin costumme i just didn't like the Doctor Mid-Nite-esque cowl. If they bring it back and but change the cowl I'm good.


How would you want the cowl changed up if they in fact brought it back?

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Jason has a hand me down ID as the Red Hood, anyone have a problem with that?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Jason has a hand me down ID as the Red Hood, anyone have a problem with that?


It appears to be mostly because of the Red Robin restaurant joke at least that's what I gleaned from that joke.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> How would you want the cowl changed up if they in fact brought it back?


The domino mask Tim wore while in the Unternet will suffice for me anyway.

----------


## nj06

> The domino mask Tim wore while in the Unternet will suffice for me anyway.


Agreed.

Something like this would be good for me:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Agreed.
> 
> Something like this would be good for me:


The mask is fine though the Unternet costume looks like Dick red Nightwing costume a little.

----------


## The Whovian

> Agreed.
> 
> Something like this would be good for me:


That would be cool

----------


## Mataza

> The mask is fine though the Unternet costume looks like Dick red Nightwing costume a little.


There are a ton of deeper reasons for this. The unternet arc is literally about exploring whats inside Tims mind, and absolutely nothing there is a coincidence, including his costume.

----------


## 9th.

> I thought it looked like Doctor Mid-Nite's costume...but bad.


I didn't think this until somebody on a forum site said it, now I can't unsee it.

----------


## scary harpy

> There are a ton of deeper reasons for this. The unternet arc is literally about exploring whats inside Tims mind, and absolutely nothing there is a coincidence, including his costume.


I don't know what was in Tim's mind at that time...but I do know this is a great costume.


red-robin-unternet.jpg



tumblr_mpunc3IrjK1r1n358o4_500.jpg

I can't believe I forgot it existed. 

Thanks for reminding me.

----------


## Mataza

> I don't know what was in Tim's mind at that time...but I do know this is a great costume.


He looked up to Dick, and yearned for the freedom he had. Free from the burden of legacy, free from the tragedy that his own life had become.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He looked up to Dick, and yearned for the freedom he had. Free from the burden of legacy, free from the tragedy that his own life had become.


I think just about every succeeding Robin looks up to Dick even Jason now before I doubt he would have given him the time of the day. In theory if Tim and Tam's relationship had actually become soemthing meaningful it could have been that first step to getting his life together.

----------


## scary harpy

> He looked up to Dick, and yearned for the freedom he had. Free from the burden of legacy, free from the tragedy that his own life had become.




Well, Tim's got that now.

With a few small tweaks, this could be a great look for him. 

(I'd give him back his yellow cape lining...but that's just me. Also, red is a little overused in the bat-family now)

----------


## Mataza

> Well, Tim's got that now.


I hope this gets adressed in doomsday clock. Tim got his life rewriten as an ideal outcome for the character, and it turned him into a failure.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'd love if Tim got a cowl like we saw in the Unlimited series;

rrobin-social_1.jpg

----------


## gohei_

Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I recently, on a whim, decided to read some of the stories about Tim Drake as his time as Robin,and I gotta say it's a pretty interesting read so far and he's definitely a cool character.

Right now I'm going through the 5 Robin volumes which contains the 3 mini-series and a few issues of the following ongoing series. As well as a couple of assorted Batman and Detective Comics issues. Am I right in assuming that there are some issues prior to these, after his initial appearance in "Lonely place of dying", and if so are they worth  to check out?

----------


## TheCape

> Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I recently, on a whim, decided to read some of the stories about Tim Drake as his time as Robin,and I gotta say it's a pretty interesting read so far and he's definitely a cool character.
> 
> Right now I'm going through the 5 Robin volumes which contains the 3 mini-series and a few issues of the following ongoing series. As well as a couple of assorted Batman and Detective Comics issues. Am I right in assuming that there are some issues prior to these, after his initial appearance in "Lonely place of dying", and if so are they worth  to check out?


Batman #480 by Alan Grant if as Tim centric issue that ocurred between his last mini and his solo, explaining Tim's relationship with his dad.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I recently, on a whim, decided to read some of the stories about Tim Drake as his time as Robin,and I gotta say it's a pretty interesting read so far and he's definitely a cool character.
> 
> Right now I'm going through the 5 Robin volumes which contains the 3 mini-series and a few issues of the following ongoing series. As well as a couple of assorted Batman and Detective Comics issues. Am I right in assuming that there are some issues prior to these, after his initial appearance in "Lonely place of dying", and if so are they worth  to check out?


Yep, it's definitely a good read

----------


## phantom1592

> Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I recently, on a whim, decided to read some of the stories about Tim Drake as his time as Robin,and I gotta say it's a pretty interesting read so far and he's definitely a cool character.
> 
> Right now I'm going through the 5 Robin volumes which contains the 3 mini-series and a few issues of the following ongoing series. As well as a couple of assorted Batman and Detective Comics issues. Am I right in assuming that there are some issues prior to these, after his initial appearance in "Lonely place of dying", and if so are they worth  to check out?


Not NECESSARY, but probably good. When I started I had collected Lonely Place of Dying for Tim's first appearance, and Batman #457 for the first appearance of the new Robin Costume. Then I pretty much was into the solo's and Knightfall and the solo ongoing. There was a lot the 'Batman and Robin' team that I missed, but it was fine. 

It wasn't until I just recently picked up a trade that included all of Robin II (which I already read) AND some of Tim's early appearances and training that dealt with his parents in the Batman books. They were pretty good, but most of it had been recapped elsewhere.

----------


## phantom1592

> Agreed.
> 
> Something like this would be good for me:


Something about that mask just doesn't work for me... It's better than the cowl, but the way it rides down the cheeks just looks a bit too '90's' to me. There were a lot of elseworlds back then that tried to make masks like that work... but they always look weird to me. 

I'd say either a standard domino mask or something a bit more nightwingish I don't know. there's a lot that can be done with dominos that isn't... That. 

Everything else about that suit looks pretty awesome though. For me, Tim's hair has always been a defining part of his personality... It was one of the first things that separated his look from the 'traditional' robins... so I like him to have something with his hair flowing... but not.. that..

----------


## The Whovian

> Hi guys, just wanted to pop in and say that I recently, on a whim, decided to read some of the stories about Tim Drake as his time as Robin,and I gotta say it's a pretty interesting read so far and he's definitely a cool character.
> 
> Right now I'm going through the 5 Robin volumes which contains the 3 mini-series and a few issues of the following ongoing series. As well as a couple of assorted Batman and Detective Comics issues. Am I right in assuming that there are some issues prior to these, after his initial appearance in "Lonely place of dying", and if so are they worth  to check out?


Drake's solo book is amazing. If you get through the whole set and like it, I would highly recommend his Red Robin series as well.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Drake's solo book is amazing. If you get through the whole set and like it, I would highly recommend his Red Robin series as well.


As long as you don't mind the fact suddenly Tim seemed more driven by his hormones in the later half of the series.

----------


## The Whovian

> As long as you don't mind the fact suddenly Tim seemed more driven by his hormones in the later half of the series.


What teenager isn't?  :Wink:  Seriously though, it's still great.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What teenager isn't?  Seriously though, it's still great.


I know but for some Tim Drake fans like millernumber1 it seemed a little too like a teen boy fantasy and the romances were just there to give Tim some sort of harem.

----------


## scary harpy

> Something about that mask just doesn't work for me... It's better than the cowl, but the way it rides down the cheeks just looks a bit too '90's' to me. There were a lot of elseworlds back then that tried to make masks like that work... but they always look weird to me. 
> 
> I'd say either a standard domino mask or something a bit more nightwingish I don't know. there's a lot that can be done with dominos that isn't... That. 
> 
> Everything else about that suit looks pretty awesome though. For me, Tim's hair has always been a defining part of his personality... It was one of the first things that separated his look from the 'traditional' robins... so I like him to have something with his hair flowing... but not.. that..


As I suggested in my original post, the suit does need some tweaks. 

But overall, it's good.

----------


## Grizzly

I’m still upset that the September 2018 solicitations make no mention of Tim Drake.

----------


## Grizzly

Also, does anyone know what happened to the Tim Drake from the Batman Beyond run? He disappeared as he rode off on the motorcycle and to my knowledge he hasnt been heard from again.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Also, does anyone know what happened to the Tim Drake from the Batman Beyond run? He disappeared as he rode off on the motorcycle and to my knowledge he hasnt been heard from again.


He  disappeared when present day Tim was transported to the prison. Perhaps we'll find out about him when the big Rebirth story concludes

----------


## Mataza

Actually they said that development will take place on batman beyond, at some point.

----------


## Grizzly

> Actually they said that development will take place on batman beyond, at some point.


Where did you see/hear that at?

----------


## Mataza

There was this interview where jurgens said they would tackle this in the future.

Wish comic books werent such an obscure and niche hobby, finding an interview is a monumental task. If i manage to find it ill post it here.

As a PD: i really hated Tim Drake Beyond, completely out of character and lacking any agency, also really really dumb.

----------


## Grizzly

I wasnt a fan of the story, although I havent been a fan of any brother eye story, but thought that it had a lot of potential.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> As a PD: i really hated Tim Drake Beyond, completely out of character and lacking any agency, also really really dumb.


Tim Drake is out of character since 2011. 
N52, Beyond and Rebirth managed to slaughter him. A character involute, inconsistent, without past and friends like all of his generation. 
Hate to see a company treat its products and especially its customers so badly.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim Drake is out of character since 2011. 
> N52, Beyond and Rebirth managed to slaughter him. A character involute, inconsistent, without past and friends like all of his generation. 
> Hate to see a company treat its products and especially its customers so badly.


But the Beyond version was really bland, that could have been Dick instead of Tim, and it wouldn't have made any differnce.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Tim Drake is out of character since 2011. 
> N52, Beyond and Rebirth managed to slaughter him. A character involute, inconsistent, without past and friends like all of his generation. 
> Hate to see a company treat its products and especially its customers so badly.


Whatever DC has in store for TIm I hope it really digs deep to the core of Tim's characters then they can right him.

----------


## Grizzly

> Whatever DC has in store for TIm I hope it really digs deep to the core of Tim's characters then they can right him.


It seemed like Geoff Johns had plans for him in Doomsday Clock and beyond, but those might be scrapped now since he stepped down.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It seemed like Geoff Johns had plans for him in Doomsday Clock and beyond, but those might be scrapped now since he stepped down.


Arguably those plans might still be in play as despite no longer being Chief Creative Officer Johns is still a big name creator at DC and commands a certain level of respect. With Doomsday Clock out and still in play there is no way the plans for Tim can get thrown out the window so easily.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim Drake is out of character since 2011. 
> N52, Beyond and Rebirth managed to slaughter him. A character involute, inconsistent, without past and friends like all of his generation. 
> Hate to see a company treat its products and especially its customers so badly.


N52 slaughtered Tim, Beyond Tim was just seriously OOC, and Rebirth Tim I wouldn't say was a slaughtered version of the character. The problem was we got a Tim at a low point in his life instead of a high point. And given what we just came off with New52 Tim I don't think that was the greatest time for that story. Rebirth Tim as a whole wasn't all bad, he definitely had his flaws. 52Tim was just.. bad. Out of character, mixed with a lot of generic leader qualities.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> N52 slaughtered Tim, Beyond Tim was just seriously OOC, and Rebirth Tim I wouldn't say was a slaughtered version of the character. The problem was we got a Tim at a low point in his life instead of a high point. And given what we just came off with New52 Tim I don't think that was the greatest time for that story. Rebirth Tim as a whole wasn't all bad, he definitely had his flaws. 52Tim was just.. bad. Out of character, mixed with a lot of generic leader qualities.


Arguably Rebirth Tim was the closest you could get to the original Post-Crisis Tim. Still his story ended on a very cheerful note.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Whatever DC has in store for TIm I hope it really digs deep to the core of Tim's characters then they can right him.


They think they have already fixed him through Tynion's "A lonely place of living".
A dull story, which has not even made it clear whether Tim's parents are alive or dead. The only thing that has established is that the whole story of put him off-stage was a big bullshit, which only served to reintroduce the Teen Titans of Tomorrow by Johns (story that we could safely forget forever).
If they think that Tynion is the right writer, they're totally out of the way, his Tim is just a bad copy of Johns' Teen Titans Robin (not the best version imho).

I have no confidence at all, unfortunately.
The only way to fix him is to re-establish *all of his past history* , and start again exactly where it left off with that monstrosity of the New 52.
Or change him drastically with a Grayson-like treatment.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They think they have already fix him through Tynion's "A lonely place of living".
> A dull story, which has not even made it clear whether Tim's parents are alive or dead. The only thing that has established is that the whole story of put him off-stage was a big bullshit, which only served to reintroduce the Teen Titans of Tomorrow by Johns (story that we could safely forget forever).
> If they think that Tynion is the right writer, they're totally out of the way, his Tim is just a bad copy of Johns' Teen Titans Robin.
> 
> I have no confidence at all, unfortunately.
> The only way to fix him is to re-establish *all of its past history* , and start again exactly where it left off with that monstrosity of the New 52


Tynion made it clear that he isn't going to write Tim though so you can rest easily knowing that. And hope that whoever it is they have in mind for Tim it had better be someone good.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tynion made it clear that he isn't going to write Tim though so you can rest easily knowing that. And hope that whoever it is they have in mind for Tim it had better be someone good.


That's a really good news for me. 
Anyway i'm not confident about Tim, They totally replaced him with Damian. 
In my opinion there's room for everyone but they don't seem to think that way, Tim generation is erased from DC Universe and i'm starting to be annoyed.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's a really good news for me. 
> Anyway i'm not confident about Tim, They totally replaced him with Damian. 
> In my opinion there's room for everyone but they don't seem to think that way, Tim generation is erased from DC Universe and i'm starting to be annoyed.


If the plan was to erase Tim's generation Tynion would not have wrote A Lonely Place of Living and Super Sons of Tomorrow would not exist and that story proves that somewhere out there Conner, Bart, and Cassie are around. That and Flash War teases that Bart and the rest of the Flash Family might be trapped in the Speedforce.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> If the plan was to erase Tim's generation Tynion would not have wrote A Lonely Place of Living and Super Sons of Tomorrow would not exist and that story proves that somewhere out there Conner, Bart, and Cassie are around. That and Flash War teases that Bart and the rest of the Flash Family might be trapped in the Speedforce.


Yes, they will also be trapped somewhere or something else but the real problem is: will they know what to do with them when they will be reused? Do they have specific plans? or will they be treated like the original Titans without a purpose, without a story behind it?
They have not yet clarified anything about the origins of Donna Troy (poor Donna, again!!!) or Tempest.
And we want to talk about the management of Wally West?

With New 52 they slaughtered an infinity of characters, with Rebirth had to try to remedy. It's been two years and the problems are still the same.

I was confident at the start, but now I'm not anymore.

Also Doomsday Clock (that i'm enjoying) I don't think it will help to fix the disaster they have produced with the reboot.
I'm afraid that if it does not change the head of the company nothing will be able to return to its place.

----------


## Grizzly

> Arguably Rebirth Tim was the closest you could get to the original Post-Crisis Tim. Still his story ended on a very cheerful note.


I agree, Rebirth Tim is the closest were going to get to post-crisis Tim. Outside of flashbacks or flash-forwards, we never get to see Tim outside of his costume and havent since the start of New 52.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes, they will also be trapped somewhere or something else but the real problem is: will they know what to do with them when they will be reused? Do they have specific plans? or will they be treated like the original Titans without a purpose, without a story behind it?
> They have not yet clarified anything about the origins of Donna Troy (poor Donna, again!!!) or Tempest.
> And we want to talk about the management of Wally West?
> 
> With New 52 they slaughtered an infinity of characters, with Rebirth had to try to remedy. It's been two years and the problems are still the same.
> 
> I was confident at the start, but now I'm not anymore.
> 
> Also Doomsday Clock (that i'm enjoying) I don't think it will help to fix the disaster they have produced with the reboot.
> I'm afraid that if it does not change the head of the company nothing will be able to return to its place.


I get what you mean and that depends though what is your idea of a plan?




> I agree, Rebirth Tim is the closest we’re going to get to post-crisis Tim. Outside of flashbacks or flash-forwards, we never get to see Tim outside of his costume and haven’t since the start of New 52.


Hopefully those plans Tynion talked about will involve more time out of the costume.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I get what you mean and that depends though what is your idea of a plan?


I'm not a writer so I do not have the solution in hand, I just want the characters in question to be rebuilt with logic, properly inserted in the DCUniverse with their history, their ties and their much-vaunted legacy.

Proposing them just to make fans happy without a coherent deepening is totally useless, as evidenced by the reintroduction of the Dick generation of the Titans.

The impression I have is that post N52 tries to re-propose the old stories of the characters without having the courage to go to the end and have the humility to admit that N52 was a huge mistake.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm not a writer so I do not have the solution in hand, I just want the characters in question to be rebuilt with logic, properly inserted in the DCUniverse with their history, their ties and their much-vaunted legacy.
> 
> Proposing them just to make fans happy without a coherent deepening is totally useless, as evidenced by the reintroduction of the Dick generation of the Titans.
> 
> The impression I have is that post N52 tries to re-propose the old stories of the characters without having the courage to go to the end and have the humility to admit that N52 was a huge mistake.


Well in regards to that well you need to scrap everything that has been done so far and start over I'm not sure whether anyone wants that.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Well in regards to that well you need to scrap everything that has been done so far and start over I'm not sure whether anyone wants that.


I did not say that we need to throw away everything that happened post-flashpoint.
Lots of interesting stories and concepts have been introduced. What is missing, and I thought Rebirth could fix, is the reintroduction into canons of much of the history of the old DCUniverse.
Keeping what is good before and after Flashpoint, a bit like it was done with Zero Hour, or with Superman in certain way.
Instead, the situation for many characters is a kind of hybrid ... We all know the past of these characters but we do not know if it is valid or not in this universe.
Many writers have difficulty using these characters properly and do nothing but chase this past that exists but also no. I refer to the Titans, Young Justice, Cyborg and all those who have seen their past and legacy deleted or rewritten with the reboot.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I did not say that we need to throw away everything that happened post-flashpoint.
> Lots of interesting stories and concepts have been introduced. What is missing, and I thought Rebirth could fix, is the reintroduction into canons of much of the history of the old DCUniverse.
> Keeping what is good before and after Flashpoint, a bit like it was done with Zero Hour, or with Superman in certain way.
> Instead, the situation for many characters is a kind of hybrid ... We all know the past of these characters but we do not know if it is valid or not in this universe.
> Many writers have difficulty using these characters properly and do nothing but chase this past that exists but also no. I refer to the Titans, Young Justice, Cyborg and all those who have seen their past and legacy deleted or rewritten with the reboot.


Yes a lot the past is missing and could use a huge return quite frankly Doomsday Clock should have been more about that and less about the Watchmen but I just hope what DC has in mind can fix that.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Yes a lot the past is missing and could use a huge return quite frankly Doomsday Clock should have been more about that and less about the Watchmen but I just hope what DC has in mind can fix that.


I honestly care extremely little for whether or not it "happened". What matters to me is whether or not it happened according to the characters. 

Wally's situation is perfect. He remembers, his reality is still what it is, cue angst/drama. Give me that with Tim. Show me Tim realizing he is being given a second chance with his parents and then have him continue heroing (knowing it could lead down the same path) because its the right thing to do.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I honestly care extremely little for whether or not it "happened". What matters to me is whether or not it happened according to the characters. 
> 
> Wally's situation is perfect. He remembers, his reality is still what it is, cue angst/drama. Give me that with Tim. Show me Tim realizing he is being given a second chance with his parents and then have him continue heroing (knowing it could lead down the same path) because its the right thing to do.


Yeah why not huh? I mean Tim has not even met Wally meeting him could help in sparking old memories.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> I honestly care extremely little for whether or not it "happened". What matters to me is whether or not it happened according to the characters. 
> 
> Wally's situation is perfect. He remembers, his reality is still what it is, cue angst/drama. Give me that with Tim. Show me Tim realizing he is being given a second chance with his parents and then have him continue heroing (knowing it could lead down the same path) because its the right thing to do.


I'm trade waiting for Flash War, maybe I should read it now to judge.
Anyway, making the character remember his past is a way to reintroduce his past.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## KrustyKid

> 


That half screen of Damian though.. lol

----------


## Jadeb

They just released pics of Robin from the live-action Titans, and it's a pretty on-point version of Tim's costume, IMO:



(Pic originally posted by Beantownbrown over in the Titans thread in the main DC forum.)

----------


## Grizzly

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/255918202" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cute video.

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim and Dick,

batfam___the_tim_and_dick_edition_by_maiyuarts-dc7wqpm.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> They just released pics of Robin from the live-action Titans, and it's a pretty on-point version of Tim's costume, IMO:
> 
> 
> 
> (Pic originally posted by Beantownbrown over in the Titans thread in the main DC forum.)


Yeah, most modern versions of the classic Robin look take a lot from Tim's design, and rightly so  :Smile: .

----------


## 2nd line g

Just picked up Robin vol 1. First time reading any of this. Looking forward to it!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Just picked up Robin vol 1. First time reading any of this. Looking forward to it!


Hope you enjoy

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Just picked up Robin vol 1. First time reading any of this. Looking forward to it!


Great reading, i envy you!

----------


## KrustyKid

Picture time!!

tumblr_pa7ogeeCoB1ucp95wo1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Does this seem pretty accurate;

tumblr_pau2k0x16u1w5jjido1_1280.jpg

----------


## gohei_

> Batman #480 by Alan Grant if as Tim centric issue that ocurred between his last mini and his solo, explaining Tim's relationship with his dad.


Thanks, I'll see if I can find it.




> Not NECESSARY, but probably good. When I started I had collected Lonely Place of Dying for Tim's first appearance, and Batman #457 for the first appearance of the new Robin Costume. Then I pretty much was into the solo's and Knightfall and the solo ongoing. There was a lot the 'Batman and Robin' team that I missed, but it was fine. 
> 
> It wasn't until I just recently picked up a trade that included all of Robin II (which I already read) AND some of Tim's early appearances and training that dealt with his parents in the Batman books. They were pretty good, but most of it had been recapped elsewhere.


Yeah I've noticed now that there a few issues "missing" here in the trade that I'm reading. Stuff that's happening between the limited Robin runs, for instance Tim moving in with his dad again who has recovered from his injuries. If I have the time I might search out those inbetween issues and see if they are worth checking out.




> Drake's solo book is amazing. If you get through the whole set and like it, I would highly recommend his Red Robin series as well.


I've just finished the 3 miniseries and I thought they were really good. Just about to start the solo run and I don't think I'll be disappointed.

----------


## DarthNeo

Just finished reading a long run of Rebirth Detective.  Since when did Tim become so smart that his mind is like some super computer?  Did I miss something?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Just finished reading a long run of Rebirth Detective.  Since when did Tim become so smart that his mind is like some super computer?  Did I miss something?


James Tynion

----------


## millernumber1

> James Tynion


To be fair, it was also Lobdell, and intelligence inflation from Damian being a supergenius.  :Smile: 

But much as I love Tynion, I do think he tends to make everyone supergeniuses.

Also, what do people think of the Robin in Deathstroke's interview flashbacks being revealed as Tim? And I love that whenever Tim's not around, that's the only time Damian will say nice things about him.  :Smile:

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Also, what do people think of the Robin in Deathstroke's interview flashbacks being revealed as Tim? And I love that whenever Tim's not around, that's the only time Damian will say nice things about him.


What's this from?

----------


## Mataza

Id like a link to that interview.

----------


## oasis1313

> To be fair, it was also Lobdell, and intelligence inflation from Damian being a supergenius. 
> 
> But much as I love Tynion, I do think he tends to make everyone supergeniuses.
> 
> Also, what do people think of the Robin in Deathstroke's interview flashbacks being revealed as Tim? And I love that whenever Tim's not around, that's the only time Damian will say nice things about him.


Maybe Tynion should try writing Nightwing--I'm tired of Dick being an idiot.

----------


## Mataza

I agree, Tynion makes everyones IQ above 132 by default. Writing characters that are super smart is easy. And he uses that to explain why most of them do what they do, they are just that smart.

----------


## millernumber1

> Id like a link to that interview.


Uh, it's in the comic?




> Maybe Tynion should try writing Nightwing--I'm tired of Dick being an idiot.


Haha. I actually really like the current Nightwing run.  :Smile:

----------


## Mataza

> Uh, it's in the comic?


Ah, misread what you wrote.

After reading that id actually like for priest to write Tim.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah, misread what you wrote.
> 
> After reading that id actually like for priest to write Tim.


I want Priest to write EVERYONE! But yeah, if we could get Priest on a Robin ongoing with Tim, that would be beyond awesome!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I want Priest to write EVERYONE! But yeah, if we could get Priest on a Robin ongoing with Tim, that would be beyond awesome!


Priest always did say he wanted to write more than black characters. If he's not getting Detective Comic this Deathstroke and Justice League are the closest he can get to the Batfamily characters at this point.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe Tynion should try writing Nightwing--I'm tired of Dick being an idiot.


where is dick an idiot

----------


## millernumber1

> Priest always did say he wanted to write more than black characters. If he's not getting Detective Comic this Deathstroke and Justice League are the closest he can get to the Batfamily characters at this point.


I really wish they'd give him Tec, even though I know he'd just write Detective Stories without the Batfam. But there's a dearth of Batfam books right now, and Tim's free...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really wish they'd give him Tec, even though I know he'd just write Detective Stories without the Batfam. But there's a dearth of Batfam books right now, and Tim's free...


Well we'll know the result come September though Hill's run would probably last longer since there was a fill-in story. If Priest was given Tim i wonder what he would do though.

----------


## Grizzly

In DC Nation #2, Tim is featured as one of the 21 characters who might be involved with Heroes in Crisis. They say that 3 of the characters will be accused of murder. 2 of the haracters will be murdered. 1 of the characters will actually be the murderer. 

Im really afraid that they might kill Tim off again as no one is using him and he isnt in any of the solicitations for the next few months.

----------


## Grizzly

A83939E6-A859-434D-A521-F1D96B8CD5C3.jpg

This is the preview.

----------


## Mataza

Hopefully he gets offed.
Then bring back the original character in doomsday clock. The pre-flashpoint version.

----------


## Jadeb

You could say he's already been murdered, and the culprits were the New 52 and Tynion.

----------


## Mataza

Well, yeah, character assassination started 7 years ago.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm fine with current Tim, he just needs another writer to tackle him with a fresh new direction.

----------


## millernumber1

> A83939E6-A859-434D-A521-F1D96B8CD5C3.jpg
> 
> This is the preview.


Ugh, I'm so not excited for more "who will die, who will be evil". I lived through this in Star Wars Expanded Universe novels. It wasn't fun then, it's not fun now.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Maybe Tynion should try writing Nightwing--I'm tired of Dick being an idiot.


eh i wouldnt bet on it, James Tynion wrote New52 Nightwing #30 where Bruce bitch slapped Dick around. And while he could make Tim genius , he admitted he doesnt like Dick and doesnt know how to write him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> eh i wouldnt bet on it, James Tynion wrote New52 Nightwing #30 where Bruce bitch slapped Dick around. And while he could make Tim genius , he admitted he doesnt like Dick and doesnt know how to write him.


No, that's Tom King. Tynion's ending was canceled.

----------


## millernumber1

> No, that's Tom King. Tynion's ending was canceled.


That was Higgins whose ending was cancelled. I think Tim Seeley wrote the replacement?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Please stop killing characters!

----------


## Mataza

> admitted he doesnt like Dick


Well, if you were to take everything dick has done at face value, he comes off as a monumental dick. I mean, everyone pays lip service to him, he gets away with everything. Cheats on his fiancee, no one bats an eye. He was never there for jason, kid dies, its all on Bruce. He fires Tim to replace him with Bruces son, because nepotism.

I like the character, but he does get away with a ton of things.





> and doesnt know how to write him.


Even people that like him dont know how to write him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That was Higgins whose ending was cancelled. I think Tim Seeley wrote the replacement?


No, Higgins wrote his ending at #29, then Tynion was solicited for #30. The book was written and drawn, but once the secret agent thing was cemented, they need to introduce Spyral so Tynion's issue was replaced by Tom King as a lead up to Grayson.

----------


## millernumber1

> No, Higgins wrote his ending at #29, then Tynion was solicited for #30. The book was written and drawn, but once the secret agent thing was cemented, they need to introduce Spyral so Tynion's issue was replaced by Tom King as a lead up to Grayson.


Ah, okay. Good to know!  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm fine with current Tim, he just needs another writer to tackle him with a fresh new direction.


how many other chracters  tho they cant all be saved

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well, if you were to take everything dick has done at face value, he comes off as a monumental dick. I mean, everyone pays lip service to him, he gets away with everything. Cheats on his fiancee, no one bats an eye. He was never there for jason, kid dies, its all on Bruce. He fires Tim to replace him with Bruces son, because nepotism.


Wow. First of all nobody likes the issue where he cheated Starfire for Barbara right before the wedding and disown it from continuity, and it was never rewritten back as canon. People don't hold him on it because they know it's out of character.

Dick was fired after Joker shot him, and Bruce find Robin too dangerous, but then Bruce hired another kid anyway. So when Dick found out there's a new Robin from a newspaper, he confronted Bruce about this hipocrisy. He admitted he did it because he missed Dick, then ordered him to go away. 

So during Jason's tenure as Robin Dick was not welcome at the cave, but he meet with him on the street and taught him some stuffs anyway. The rest he leaves to Batman.

When Jason died he was in outer space with Titans, and Bruce never told him he died. He had to find out from a newspaper. Again. He confronted Bruce about this, but he punched him and swear off partnership, so he had to go again. They didn't mend their relationship until around Knightfall I think.   

When he decided to make Damian Robin, it was because the kid was dangerous because of his upbringing and need guidance more than Tim needs his.

----------


## oasis1313

> Wow. First of all nobody likes the issue where he cheated Starfire for Barbara right before the wedding and disown it from continuity, and it was never rewritten back as canon. People don't hold him on it because they know it's out of character.
> 
> Dick was fired after Joker shot him, and Bruce find Robin too dangerous, but then Bruce hired another kid anyway, so Dick confronted Bruce about this hipocrisy who admitted he did it because he missed Dick, then ordered him to go away. 
> 
> So during Jason's tenure as Robin Dick was not welcome at the cave, but he meet with him on the street and taught him some stuffs anyway. The rest he leaves to Batman.
> 
> When Jason died he was in outer space with Titans, and Bruce never told him he died. He had to find out from a newspaper. He confronted Bruce about this, but he punched him and swear off partnership, so he had to go again.  
> 
> When he decided to make Damian Robin, it was because the kid was dangerous because of his upbringing and need morality training.


Didn't Dick say then also that he viewed Tim as an equal and there was nothing more he could teach him?  That was a very nice compliment.

----------


## millernumber1

Question for the Tim fans - what do most Tim fans think about Tomasi as a writer for Tim? I personally really hated the way Tomasi wrote Tim during Batman and Robin, but I'm curious to know if I'm by myself on that.

----------


## dietrich

> I'm fine with current Tim, he just needs another writer to tackle him with a fresh new direction.


I don''t think any writer at DC is interested or inspired aside from Tynion and fat lot of good he is. It feels like DC has been trying to get rid of him forever. Sad really.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Didn't Dick say then also that he viewed Tim as an equal and there was nothing more he could teach him?  That was a very nice compliment.


I forgot, but I super-understand Tim for being angry at his decision and doesn't take it that way. He lost so many people by this point and would benefit from someone who is kind to him. So it maybe a compliment, but the timing was bad all around, and Damian being an ass was not helping.  

Sorry for out of topic for a bit, carry on.

----------


## dietrich

> Didn't Dick say then also that he viewed Tim as an equal and there was nothing more he could teach him?  That was a very nice compliment.


It was a great compliment but you know nepotism.

It might turn out that Damian is really Slade's son and Tim is really Tim Wayne biological son of Bruce Wayne then Dick might hire Tim back as Robin and kick Damian to the curb and everyone will be super sorry and feel really guilty for not looking for Tim when he was with OZ and that time when he lost his spleen  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Dick stepping up and taking in a 10 year old who just lost his only family was just beautiful and symbolic. That is why Robin was created in the 1st place.
It spoke volumes about Dick, About his compassion and maturity. Just like his father before him. I really love that moment. The circle is complete.

----------


## Mataza

> Wow. First of all nobody likes the issue where he cheated Starfire for Barbara right before the wedding and disown it from continuity, and it was never rewritten back as canon. People don't hold him on it because they know it's out of character.


Not liking it doesnt make it not happen. It wasnt out of character, in fact it was uncharted territory, and it is now in character, it doesnt take much to get him into a bed.




> Dick was fired after Joker shot him, and Bruce find Robin too dangerous, but then Bruce hired another kid anyway. So when Dick found out there's a new Robin from a newspaper, he confronted Bruce about this hipocrisy. He admitted he did it because he missed Dick, then ordered him to go away. 
> So during Jason's tenure as Robin Dick was not welcome at the cave, but he meet with him on the street and taught him some stuffs anyway. The rest he leaves to Batman.


Fair.




> When Jason died he was in outer space with Titans, and Bruce never told him he died. He had to find out from a newspaper. Again. He confronted Bruce about this, but he punched him and swear off partnership, so he had to go again. They didn't mend their relationship until around Knightfall I think.


Actually they did when Tim came into the picture. But he still kept his distance because of the whole "im going to be my own man". When bruce retired for a while they bonded.




> When he decided to make Damian Robin, it was because the kid was dangerous because of his upbringing and need guidance more than Tim needs his.


When he decided to make Damian Robin, Tim had just lost his stepdad, had lost all his friends, had no family, and was so far into depression he was outright suicidal.  Had busted his ass to be worthy of the mantle during years, it was literally all he had left.
Then he takes it from him, gives it to a kid that tried to murder him and disrespects him at every turn, just because the kid "needed guidance". 
At least bruce let Damian keep the mantle and got a Not-Robin.
Even under the best of lights it just does not look good.

----------


## Mataza

> Question for the Tim fans - what do most Tim fans think about Tomasi as a writer for Tim? I personally really hated the way Tomasi wrote Tim during Batman and Robin, but I'm curious to know if I'm by myself on that.


I love how he writes damian. But nope, i dont think he likes the character or has any good ideas for stories with him.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Well, if you were to take everything dick has done at face value, he comes off as a monumental dick. I mean, everyone pays lip service to him, he gets away with everything. Cheats on his fiancee, no one bats an eye. He was never there for jason, kid dies, its all on Bruce. He fires Tim to replace him with Bruces son, because nepotism.
> 
> I like the character, but he does get away with a ton of things.
> 
> 
> 
> Even people that like him dont know how to write him.


I might disagree with what you think about his choices, but yeah he can be one.  That's a problem with this whole new timeline i think. He needs time, friends, a nicer Bruce of the past, and maturity to be less of a Dick and he has to develop while Bruce and others are developping. All of that is taken away while Bruce is still Batgod, and NOW he's even harder to write. I call this time displacement. Tim experiences this too just not as big.  He's genius without being Robin. 

So yeah, thanks for the info everyone, but still dont count on anyone to write Dick or Tim now. Robin needs time and history.

----------


## TheCape

> Not liking it doesnt make it not happen. It wasnt out of character, in fact it was uncharted territory, and it is now in character, it doesnt take much to get him into a bed.


Not really, originally in the 80s, Dick was all about serious relationships, he even stated that he wouldn't get into bed with a girl that didn't love him, that being said, since the Devin Grayson started to write him, that changed and sometimes writers assume that he is like that.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Not really, originally in the 80s, Dick was all about serious relationships, he even stated that he wouldn't get into bed with a girl that didn't love him, that being said, since the Devin Grayson started to write him, that changed and sometimes writers *assume* that he is like that.


If we're talking current Dick I wouldn't say it takes much for him to get bedded. He's definitely not like how he used to be.

----------


## Pohzee

> Question for the Tim fans - what do most Tim fans think about Tomasi as a writer for Tim? I personally really hated the way Tomasi wrote Tim during Batman and Robin, but I'm curious to know if I'm by myself on that.


I thought that he had a good enough voice for him during his Nightwing run, but I really doubt that he has anything interesting to say about the character.

----------


## TheCape

> I thought that he had a good enough voice for him during his Nightwing run, but I really doubt that he has anything interesting to say about the character.


I think than that's Tomasi in general, he does know and understand most of the characthers, but his plots about then are kind of underwhelming, his Nightwing run for example, is entertaining and does have some interesting ideas, but is kind of forgetable at the end of the day.

----------


## Pohzee

> I think than that's Tomasi in general, he does know and understand most of the characthers, but his plots about then are kind of underwhelming, his Nightwing run for example, is entertaining and does have some interesting ideas, but is kind of forgetable at the end of the day.


That's true, but bigger characters like Superman -and even to some degree Nightwing- can get away with this more than Tim can because they are popular enough to sustain a book without an interesting premise. Tim doesn't really have that luxury right now.

----------


## Grizzly

This might be a long shot, but I could see Geoff Johns writing a Tim Drake book. Johns write Tim during his Teen Titans run, and values the character enough to make him a part of Doomsday Clock. Plus, we all know Johns has a history of bringing once beloved characters who are in rough times popularity wise into the forefront, which is definitely Tim Drake.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Question for the Tim fans - what do most Tim fans think about Tomasi as a writer for Tim? I personally really hated the way Tomasi wrote Tim during Batman and Robin, but I'm curious to know if I'm by myself on that.


In my opinion Tomasi should stay far away from every Batman title, his writing doesn't fit at all with batverse. 
I hated all his Batman and Robin run and most of all Robin Rises.
Instead he's perfect on Superman.

----------


## millernumber1

> This might be a long shot, but I could see Geoff Johns writing a Tim Drake book. Johns write Tim during his Teen Titans run, and values the character enough to make him a part of Doomsday Clock. Plus, we all know Johns has a history of bringing once beloved characters who are in rough times popularity wise into the forefront, which is definitely Tim Drake.


As long as he doesn't try to pair him with Wonder Girl again.  :Smile: 




> In my opinion Tomasi should stay far away from every Batman title, his writing doesn't fit at all with batverse. 
> I hated all his Batman and Robin run and most of all Robin Rises.
> Instead he's perfect on Superman.


Finally someone who understands the pain of disliking Tomasi's Batman and Robin run!  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> As long as he doesn't try to pair him with Wonder Girl again.


I think anyone would happily agree with that considering why it even began in the first place as a find comfort in each other sort of thing that was really unhealthy.

----------


## TheCape

> Finally someone who understands the pain of disliking Tomasi's Batman and Robin run!


I enjoy that run seeing and because it was my first contact with Damian in a regular basis, so i quite fond of it, but i don't think that is that great, his first arc was the best and none of the others really live up to that one IMHO.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Finally someone who understands the pain of disliking Tomasi's Batman and Robin run!


Batgod at his best! 
Exactly what i don't want to read about.

----------


## millernumber1

> I enjoy that run seeing and because it was my first contact with Damian in a regular basis, so i quite fond of it, but i don't think that is that great, his first arc was the best and none of the others really live up to that one IMHO.


I completely understand why people love it. Gleason's art is very affecting, and Tomasi knows how to pull at the heartstrings - but I think it's fundamentally very morally hollow, and wish more people saw that.




> Batgod at his best! 
> Exactly what i don't want to read about.


Haha, so true. Batman Feels Your Pain.

----------


## Mataza

> Didn't Dick say then also that he viewed Tim as an equal and there was nothing more he could teach him?  That was a very nice compliment.


Eh, Bruce had said the same thing a couple years before, he even said he was as good as Dick ever was. Thing is, Robin isnt a hero training program. And Tim definitely made the role into more than a sidekick thing, he was a full fledged vigilante doing his own thing, one that happened to also be Batmans primary support.

I know why they did it too, Dicks dynamic with Damian was more interesting than with Tim. With Tim there was no conflict at all, they were both in the same page and unlike Bruce, Dick was sensible enough not to overstep. But it didnt change the fact that narratively for it to happen, Dick had to be a colossal ass.

Just imagine being the new boss, and firing a great employee because the old boss son wanted his position, do it on the week this great employee lost his father, then have his own girfriend spy on him.
I dont even mind that it happened, it was great character development for Tim and opened up one of his best stories. The thing that annoys me is that it got swept under the rug. They never discussed it.

Priest seems to be opening up a tiny bit of the conversation about it, on a deathstroke book. Well see how it works out.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I completely understand why people love it. Gleason's art is very affecting, and Tomasi knows how to pull at the heartstrings - but I think it's fundamentally very morally hollow, and wish more people saw that.


How was it morally hollow though?

----------


## millernumber1

> How was it morally hollow though?


Because instead of having Damian and Bruce actually signficantly change their behavior, they had easy, shallow apologies or gestures (though usually heartstring-pulley ones), and lots of "oooh, isn't Damian/Bruce so sad, that excuses how terrible he's acting" stuff.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Because instead of having Damian and Bruce actually signficantly change their behavior, they had easy, shallow apologies or gestures (though usually heartstring-pulley ones), and lots of "oooh, isn't Damian/Bruce so sad, that excuses how terrible he's acting" stuff.


Seeing such things would not be new to me as I had to contend with similar behaviours growing up and I've also seen other stories with similar issues really. Well that depends  understanding where a character is coming from can work to make the character more sympathetic but if it gets overplayed it can come off as a bad sympathy plea. As for Bruce well the Batjerk thing has been around for some time long before Tomasi ever wrote Batman and Robin. Though arguably if Damian was willing to paint a family portrait of the Batfamily minus a few others I doubt Damian would be that bad.

----------


## Mataza

Yep, emotional manipulation is what Tomasi´s Damian was all about. He did it well and it worked for the character, but i was never a fan.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yep, emotional manipulation is what Tomasi´s Damian was all about. He did it well and it worked for the character, but i was never a fan.


Well it was what it was in the end if I could write Damian it woudl be hard to maintain his more jerkish attitude if he was more humble which is actually part of his charm as a character ironically.

----------


## Fergus

> It was a great compliment but you know nepotism.
> 
> *It might turn out that Damian is really Slade's son and Tim is really Tim Wayne biological son of Bruce Wayne then Dick might hire Tim back as Robin and kick Damian to the curb and everyone will be super sorry and feel really guilty for not looking for Tim when he was with OZ and that time when he lost his spleen* 
> 
> Dick stepping up and taking in a 10 year old who just lost his only family was just beautiful and symbolic. That is why Robin was created in the 1st place.
> It spoke volumes about Dick, About his compassion and maturity. Just like his father before him. I really love that moment. The circle is complete.


Interesting and cringy. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.  Suddenly I miss Atlanta96.

----------


## Armor of God

> This might be a long shot, but I could see Geoff Johns writing a Tim Drake book. Johns write Tim during his Teen Titans run, and values the character enough to make him a part of Doomsday Clock. Plus, we all know Johns has a history of bringing once beloved characters who are in rough times popularity wise into the forefront, which is definitely Tim Drake.


Tim isn't a part of Doomsday Clock.

----------


## Fergus

> In my opinion Tomasi should stay far away from every Batman title, his writing doesn't fit at all with batverse. 
> I hated all his Batman and Robin run and most of all Robin Rises.
> Instead he's perfect on Superman.


I hope he gets the Tec gig as rumoured Loved his B&R, Loved his Superman, Loved his Nightwing, Love his Supersons, loved Tomasi's Death of Superman and Love the fact that he's now writing for DC Animated Universe.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Eh, Bruce had said the same thing a couple years before, he even said he was as good as Dick ever was. Thing is, Robin isnt a hero training program. And Tim definitely made the role into more than a sidekick thing, he was a full fledged vigilante doing his own thing, one that happened to also be Batmans primary support.
> 
> I know why they did it too, Dicks dynamic with Damian was more interesting than with Tim. With Tim there was no conflict at all, they were both in the same page and unlike Bruce, Dick was sensible enough not to overstep. But it didnt change the fact that narratively for it to happen, Dick had to be a colossal ass.
> 
> Just imagine being the new boss, and firing a great employee because the old boss son wanted his position, do it on the week this great employee lost his father, then have his own girfriend spy on him.
> I dont even mind that it happened, it was great character development for Tim and opened up one of his best stories. The thing that annoys me is that it got swept under the rug. They never discussed it.
> 
> Priest seems to be opening up a tiny bit of the conversation about it, on a deathstroke book. Well see how it works out.


Hẹh I'm just imagining a big brother and a son who tries to make up for his own past mistakes and shortcomings by trying to listen to a angsty little brother. The reason the whole conflict with Red Robin is never discussed is because  it was never a conflict. It just sounds like Tim is behaving like a teenager who needs that phase to vent. Not some angsty heroic genius detective that he thinks he is all the time in that book. This is a family not just batmans company.  Bruce and Dick never said sorry or discussed theirs during Dicks own phase either and that time, a person actually died. Bc maybe that's what family is. Shitty things happen and nobody apologizes but it turns out somewhat ok in the end. Dick was trying to keep everyone alive. I may blame him for never being as warm as his fans make him out to be, but I don't think "collosal ass" is right. 

I imagine Dick thinking "hey I've been though this phase". And it's not like Tim was acting like his logical self, that's why Dick said he needs therapy and only told Damian to shut up. Any one of his arguments proves this was a phase and nobody is more at fault than the others. 
He lost everything? Dick lost Bruce as well. Dicks friends were not there, Superman has been acting like a dick to Dick. A mantle he hated ? Dick took on one too. He set up a plan against Damian bc the kid could be dangerous? Meanwhile Dicks own replacement against his will is wrecking shit up for fun. His dad is dead? Dicks trying to be a dad to a kid he hated. It's good of Dick to kinda just wait and see him back, and just gently talked to him because he knew tim needed it more than teenage him or even current him ever did. That's a good brother I see.

----------


## Mataza

> I imagine Dick thinking "hey I've been though this phase". And it's not like Tim was acting like his logical self, that's why Dick said he needs therapy. Any one of his arguments proves this was a phase and nobody is more at fault than the others.


The kid was suicidal, we have 2 Robin issues about actual suicide and depression from that time. You do not take away the only thing that keeps the 16 year old kid going. Theres no way to excuse this.
This wasnt a phase, he didnt just break up with a 2 week long girlfriend or failed an examn nor he lost an important game for his high school team. This was a little kid that you called "Brother" having a deathwish, and you letting him sort it out by himself.




> He lost everything? Dick lost Bruce as well.


Dude, Tims sweetheart died, then his dad died, then his best friend died, then his other best friend died, then his step-mom dies, then a friend goes insane, then his step dad dies, then he gets thrown out of his dream job by his "big bro".

----------


## nhienphan2808

> The kid was suicidal, we have 2 Robin issues about actual suicide and depression from that time. You do not take away the only thing that keeps the 16 year old kid going. Theres no way to excuse this.
> This wasnt a phase, he didnt just break up with a 2 week long girlfriend or failed an examn nor he lost an important game for his high school team. This was a little kid that you called "Brother" having a deathwish, and you letting him sort it out by himself.
> 
> 
> Dude, Tims sweetheart died, then his dad died, then his best friend died, then his other best friend died, then his step-mom dies, then a friend goes insane, then his step dad dies, then he gets thrown out of his dream job by his "big bro".


I am not trying to compare pains here. I Am saying that tim is talking and behaving like he really needs therapy before anything else here. Dick isn't someone who can fix that all that. He didn't and instead, wait for it to heal on its own. Tim could handle that. Tim used to be the one who made this family. So yes , this is a phase when he thinks he lost it. He needs time to rethink and calm down.

----------


## Zaresh

> I am not trying to compare pains here. I Am saying that tim is talking and behaving like he really needs therapy before anything else here. Dick isn't someone who can fix that all that. He didn't and instead, wait for it to heal on its own. Tim could handle that. Tim used to be the one who made this family. So yes , this is a phase when he thinks he lost it. He needs time to rethink and calm down.


Because letting rather obsessive, even if usually upbeat and down to earth, people to their devices in a depression, passing through their darkest moment in their life, rejecting quite forced help because they supposedly weren't in their mind, then running away and throwing themselves into serious danger sure is better than helping someone to get a hold of themselves and finding a place in a world that seems to have cut all their foundations of a healthy, emotional life. Yeah, 101 for mental health family support.

Don't get me wrong; Dick himself was passing for very hard times himself at that time (Bruce's death was the last of a series of punches that stressed him). But he handled Tim's situation awfully as far as I recall.

----------


## CPSparkles

Dick handled the situation as best as he could. They had all lost a lot and were going through a ton. Tim's pain wasn't greater or more important than Dick's, Damian's or even Alfred just because you've lost lots of people doesn't mean you are priority over a person that has lost one person.

That's not how pain works.

Damian as the minor was priority here just because he was a minor before we consider the fact that he could also be considered a danger to others.

Tim was suicidal so Dick was correct in saying he needed therapy.

I'm surprised Tim wasn't more understanding of Dick situation. I'm also surprised Tim didn't volunteer Robin to Damian but his feelings surrounding Damian are biased so I guess that hardened his heart. Damian tried to kill him but Damian was also 10 and working on following his the right path. Not every hero believes in redemption and I get that Tim is human and not perfect.

I wont criticise Dick about how he handled because just because he wasn't screaming his pain doesn't mean he wasn't in a bad place too. He was.

Those hoping Priest will tackle the subject shouldn't hold their breathe. Yes Tim's jealousy is brought to the surface in Deathstroke but I think that's about as far as it will go.

DC is already giving Dick and Damian credit for finding Bruce I don't see anyone going to expand on Dick and Tim. We were lucky Tynion threw us scraps but as far as other writers are concerned I don't see any of them touching it.

Percy plans to pay homage to Morrison in his Nightwing run. I can bet you Tim Drake won't factor into that story at all.

----------


## Mataza

> DC is already giving Dick and Damian credit for finding Bruce


Wait, what? Where?

----------


## KrustyKid

> *Dick handled the situation as best as he could*. They had all lost a lot and were going through a ton. Tim's pain wasn't greater or more important than Dick's, Damian's or even Alfred just because you've lost lots of people doesn't mean you are priority over a person that has lost one person.
> 
> That's not how pain works.
> 
> Damian as the minor was priority here just because he was a minor before we consider the fact that he could also be considered a danger to others.
> 
> Tim was suicidal so Dick was correct in saying he needed therapy.
> 
> I'm surprised Tim wasn't more understanding of Dick situation. I'm also surprised Tim didn't volunteer Robin to Damian but his feelings surrounding Damian are biased so I guess that hardened his heart. Damian tried to kill him but Damian was also 10 and working on following his the right path. Not every hero believes in redemption and I get that Tim is human and not perfect.
> ...


I disagree. I think the one thing Dick should have done; before going on to make Damian Robin, he really should have discussed his decision with Tim before doing so. It would have been the most respectable route to go for someone who had held the mantle for years. Instead Tim walks in and it's like; "Yah, you're not Robin anymore. Damian is the new Robin.. so you'll have to come up with something else?"

Of everything Dick didn't do, that was the one thing he should have, talked with Tim and let him know Damian would be the new Robin. It was wrong how Dick went about it all. I have no doubt there would have been far less tension between them had Dick let Tim know ahead of time before even going to Damian on the matter.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Wait, what? Where?


In Gotham Resistance.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dick handled the situation as best as he could. They had all lost a lot and were going through a ton. Tim's pain wasn't greater or more important than Dick's, Damian's or even Alfred just because you've lost lots of people doesn't mean you are priority over a person that has lost one person.
> 
> That's not how pain works.
> 
> Damian as the minor was priority here just because he was a minor before we consider the fact that he could also be considered a danger to others.
> 
> Tim was suicidal so Dick was correct in saying he needed therapy.
> 
> I'm surprised Tim wasn't more understanding of Dick situation. I'm also surprised Tim didn't volunteer Robin to Damian but his feelings surrounding Damian are biased so I guess that hardened his heart. Damian tried to kill him but Damian was also 10 and working on following his the right path. Not every hero believes in redemption and I get that Tim is human and not perfect.
> ...


I have to disagree with something.

Tim was in a place that only Damian could understand. He lacked any support. Any. The ones that wanted to help him, were bassically telling him that he was out of his mind, delusional, and they didn't even want to hear him or contemplate his ideas because their own pain was blinding and closing them.

He didn't have anyone that could hear him out, but a well known manipulative, obsessive, scheming villain, a bunch of pro assasins, and someone who, as much as she was friendly, calm and assertive, was an outsider to his business (and so his problems) and was doing her work before anything else (damn, I liked Red Robin; pretty damn good book).

On the other hand, Dick, Babs, even Damian had someone to hear and hold them. Dick had Alfred and his remaining friends. Damian had Dick. They were sonehow covered emotional wise.

Tim wasn't when he started his journey, and must remind you that he too was a minor: he was a teen. And one who, despite being self dependant and logical, still was very teenish in his psychological needs. Dick could have handle it better by, for example, making him bound with Damian by making Tim being the one that gave him the mantle and helping Tim establishing a new identity. Or even more: just paying a bit of attention, hearing what Tim was trying to tell him, helping him in his search. Something, anything else that what he did. But again, Dick, as it happens, tends to take bad decisions in the most sensitive moments. He has a history by now. And he was really hurting and stressed at that time. Understable.

And for the record, I'm not partial to any of them. I'm a Jason fan, and I like Tim and Dick the same. I may dislike Damian, but that's because the poor kid is stuck into regressing to being very hateable after any developement he gets. He's fun to read when properly paired though. I'm indiferent to any of the girls, but may like Steph a bit more.

It's not a competition, true, but it's how it was. And we are talking about old canon mostly, so anything that hans't been changed yet is still effective. Once it's actually changed, we will discuss in the new light of the new canon.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I disagree. I think the one thing Dick should have done; before going on to make Damian Robin, he really should have discussed his decision with Tim before doing so. It would have been the most respectable route to go for someone who had held the mantle for years. Instead Tim walks in and it's like; "Yah, you're not Robin anymore. Damian is the new Robin.. so you'll have to come up with something else?"
> 
> Of everything Dick didn't do, that was the one thing he should have, talked with Tim and let him know Damian would be the new Robin. It was wrong how Dick went about it all. I have no doubt there would have been far less tension between them had Dick let Tim know ahead of time before even going to Damian on the matter.


It's fine if you disagree I don't feel the same it's easy to say how we'll react in ties of crisis but usually we act very differently. Dick did the best he could I can't fault him he put aside his pain to make a difficult decision. Thankfully he had Alfred there to help would have been nice if he had Tim also but it wasn't to be.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I have to disagree with something.
> 
> Tim was in a place that only Damian could understand. He lacked any support. Any. The ones that wanted to help him, were bassically telling him that he was out of his mind, delusional, and they didn't even want to hear him or contemplate his ideas because their own pain was blindong and closing them.
> 
> He didn't have anyone that could hear him out, bug a well known manipulative, obsesive, scheming villain, a bunch of pro assasings, and someone who, as much as she was friendly, calm and assertive, was an outsider to his business (and so his problems) and was doing her work before anything else (damn, I liked Red Robin; pretty damn book).
> 
> On the othet hand, Dick, Babs, even Damian had someone to hear and hold them. Dick had Alfred and his remaining friends. Damian had Dick. They were sonehow covered emotional wise.
> 
> Tim wasn't when he started his journey,
> ...


Tim wasn't because he left but maybe Dick, Damian, Alfred and Babs should have gone with him for emotional support.

Yes the poor kid who just asked for a team mate to join him, the poor kid who admits he cares for someone besides Dick or bruce, the poor kid who went I don't nee friends to becoming Jon kent's friend. Yes he's stuck in regression hell.

Hateable is debateable friend but allow me to disregard your opinions just based on the fact that you hate one of the subjects. I can't take your views as impartial because we rarely feel emphatic towards characters we hate.

RR isn't canon anymore and lord knows what happened with the passing of mantle since Tim was 13 when that happened, Bruce wasn't his dad and he hadn't lost his parents or best friend. None of that happened but it's still fun to discuss.

----------


## Zaresh

> Tim wasn't because he left but maybe Dick, Damian, Alfred and Babs should have gone with him for emotional support.


Or even try to contact him. Or hearing him. Something!

(I keep adding stuff to my former post, just in case soneone sees diferences)

I said that I dislike him, not that I hate him. There is a difference. I think they're putting him in a very hateable position most of the time, yes (outside his books mostly), but that doesn't mean that I hate him, geez.

Also, how does that has anything to do with how I see Tim and Dick, whom were the ones we were discussing? I'm not partial to any of them: I like them both. Actually, I may know Dick more that Tim, and despite that, I still like them the same, you know.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Or even try to contact him. Or hearing him. Something!
> 
> (I keep adding stuff to my former post, just in case soneone sees diferences)


Clearly they should have upped and left with him or he could have you know stayed.

----------


## Zaresh

> Clearly they should have upped and left with him or he could have you know stayed.


Or, you know, expend time enough with him to hear him and think about the possibility, giving him support from Gotham, like they do everywhere else?
Staying doing what? He didn't have a place and everyone seemed to think that he was going nuts with the kid that was rather abusive to him? He could have stay, but for that he would've needed support, actual support from the ones he was close to and with a place to belong. Something he didn't have at that time.

Aren't you a bit obtuse with the possibilities here? And, sorry if this comes across as rude, but you seem to take all this too seriously. I just put the facts for consideration, not accusation.

----------


## Mataza

> Hateable is debateable friend but allow me to disregard your opinions just based on the fact that you hate one of the subjects.


Thats dumb, an argument has to stand on its own merits, regardless of who makes it.

----------


## Mataza

> In Gotham Resistance.


Found the scan, amazing considering how they gave up so easily back then.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It's fine if you disagree I don't feel the same it's easy to say how we'll react in ties of crisis but usually we act very differently. Dick did the best he could I can't fault him he put aside his pain to make a difficult decision. Thankfully he had Alfred there to help would have been nice if he had Tim also but it wasn't to be.


You really think Dick did the best he could? I know you're not a fan of Tim, but even you have to admit Dick had a misstep there.

For Tim who looked up to Dick like a brother, there was a lack of respect  for Tim on Dick's end in how things conspired. I'll give an example; What if Damian came home one day to find Harper Row dressed up as Robin with Bruce coming out and saying: "My dear son, Harper is the new Robin. Your time is up." In that moment Bruce would strip what is most important in Damian's life to him(outside of family), like Dick had done to Tim. That would be completely disrespectful if Bruce did something like that. Now if he wanted to make Harper the new Robin, and had a prior discussion with Damian about the matter before making the move and everyone was on board, there would be no reason to call foul.

Point being, Dick didn't do the best he could with handling that situation. Had Grayson talked to Tim beforehand I doubt he would have stormed off; instead Tim was left hurt from all that he lost, and betrayed because of what was stripped from him(one of the few things he had left). No one is perfect. Tim didn't handle the situation to the best of his ability, and nor did Dick.

----------


## oasis1313

Tim went out, got himself a new identity and a new costume, and did very well at it.  No permanent trauma caused.  Robin has become a transitory identity; Dick (as Bat-In-Charge) decided Tim had outgrown it and Damian needed to grow into it.  It was the right decision.  Maybe Dick wasn't Sensitive enough, but the Bat-Family is all pretty much, "Ignore The Pain And Be A Bat" 24/7.  To quote the wise and venerable Jennifer Anniston: "(Brad) had a sensitivity chip missing."  I've been through over 50 years of Bat-People short on sensitivity chips, with Bruce providing a great insensitive example to all of them.  The only way you're going to get anything else out of that family is to send them to college to become psychiatrists.

----------


## Zaresh

> Tim went out, got himself a new identity and a new costume, and did very well at it.  No permanent trauma caused.  Robin has become a transitory identity; Dick (as Bat-In-Charge) decided Tim had outgrown it and Damian needed to grow into it.  It was the right decision.  Maybe Dick wasn't Sensitive enough, but the Bat-Family is all pretty much, "Ignore The Pain And Be A Bat" 24/7.  To quote the wise and venerable Jennifer Anniston: "(Brad) had a sensitivity chip missing."  I've been through over 50 years of Bat-People short on sensitivity chips, with Bruce providing a great insensitive example to all of them.  The only way you're going to get anything else out of that family is to send them to college to become psychiatrists.


I.. I don't know if I want to follow this discussion. So Tim did marvelously by himself running around, endangering his life to the point of getting involved with a villain who wanted to own him quite literally, and let's forget how he took such risks without even mind the consecuences for his own well being at all. And apparently, for giving some emotional support, one every mental health patient needs, from his close friends or family, you need to be a psychiatrist of some sort. Unless you are Damian, then you can have emotional support. And I'm not even trying to say that he didn't deserve it, because he did and he got it from Dick, thankfully.

Ok, that's so wrong. I cannot believe you really believe it. You must be loosing some point in your argument and I must be missunderstanding you.

(In any case, that mess of a familial drama gave me a book I enjoyed a lot, thanks to all that very same mess. So I'm not complaining, really).

----------


## KrustyKid

> Tim went out, got himself a new identity and a new costume, and did very well at it.  No permanent trauma caused.  Robin has become a transitory identity; Dick (as Bat-In-Charge) decided Tim had outgrown it and Damian needed to grow into it.  *It was the right decision*.  Maybe Dick wasn't Sensitive enough, but the Bat-Family is all pretty much, "Ignore The Pain And Be A Bat" 24/7.  To quote the wise and venerable Jennifer Anniston: "(Brad) had a sensitivity chip missing."  I've been through over 50 years of Bat-People short on sensitivity chips, with Bruce providing a great insensitive example to all of them.  The only way you're going to get anything else out of that family is to send them to college to become psychiatrists.


This I 100% agree with. Dick was in the right to put Damian in the role, he needed guidance and structure in his life. There was no better way to accomplish that. The only thing Dick was at fault for was not discussing his decision with Tim before promoting Damian, who at that time was still 'Robin'.

----------


## oasis1313

> This I 100% agree with. Dick was in the right to put Damian in the role, he needed guidance and structure in his life. There was no better way to accomplish that. The only thing Dick was at fault for was not discussing his decision with Tim before promoting Damian, who at that time was still 'Robin'.


Krusty, you have a good point in that Dick should have discussed the matter with Tim first.  I do think Tim was at the point of development that he was ready to fly solo.  It may be that Tim is good enough at acting that Dick didn't realize such a decision might be rough on his ego--instead of taking it as the compliment I believe Dick meant it to be--however clumsily he pronounced it.  Dick wouldn't intentionally hurt Tim's feelings.  Sure, Tim was likely blindsided by it--but probably no more than Dick was when Bruce fired him.  I think Tim did well as Red Robin, and I'd like to see him move on from "Red Robin" and continue toward assuming his own adult identity, become his own man as Dick and Jason have.  That's one of the reasons I liked his cowled costume best.  I honestly don't think any of his elders in the Bat-Family has anything left to teach him at this point.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Krusty, you have a good point in that Dick should have discussed the matter with Tim first.  I do think Tim was at the point of development that he was ready to fly solo.  It may be that Tim is good enough at acting that Dick didn't realize such a decision might be rough on his ego--instead of taking it as the compliment I believe Dick meant it to be--however clumsily he pronounced it.  Dick wouldn't intentionally hurt Tim's feelings.  Sure, Tim was likely blindsided by it--but probably no more than Dick was when Bruce fired him.  I think Tim did well as Red Robin, and I'd like to see him move on from "Red Robin" and continue toward assuming his own adult identity, become his own man as Dick and Jason have.  That's one of the reasons I liked his cowled costume best.  I honestly don't think any of his elders in the Bat-Family has anything left to teach him at this point.


True, Tim didn't need anymore teaching. I think it had less to do with ego, and more to do with Tim's emotional state at the time. Heck, I think most of us would not want a business decision handled like that. It would be like going into work one day and your boss says; "Hey, we're giving Benny your job. We're promoting you to another department." The promotion isn't bad per say, but the least you'd want from your boss is for them to let you know ahead of time so you're prepared. This is practically what happened with Tim on a big scale, only intensifying the results was all the other crap going on in his life. In the end though, it all turned out ok. Dick and Damian made a great Batman and Robin, and Tim finally came around.

I agree about the cowl, it made Tim visually stand out.

----------


## Mataza

I wonder if this whole thing is the reason Tim was put in that facility for the upcoming series. could it be?

----------


## oasis1313

> I wonder if this whole thing is the reason Tim was put in that facility for the upcoming series. could it be?


My theory was that Tim would reappear as Oxymandias on Earth Prime.

----------


## Mataza

I thought earth prime is no more. Unless i missed something.

----------


## oasis1313

> I thought earth prime is no more. Unless i missed something.


For all I know, I missed something.  I'm spending more on fewer comics so I may have missed some event.  Comics are a convoluted mess so it's hard to keep track of all the realities.  I apologize if wrong.

----------


## Zaresh

Eh, I dunno. RR costume was nice, but I feel like the cowl lacks... someting. Too plain and rounded. But I guess that's me, I have this same problem with this kind of cowl everytime.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> I thought earth prime is no more. Unless i missed something.


We are still in prime just chunks of every earth before it in it.


Regarding Tim and how "nobody listens to him" he was in the worse place in RR abd not even talking normally. All he talked about was how he believe Bruce is still alive with no concrete evidence. Dick did try to listen. Knowing Tim he doesn't say I need help ever. He just said he wanted to prove something so that's what Dick heard. He asked "are you sure? I want to help " more than once. And maybe Tim is realizing Damian was not trying to kill him anymore, Dick was getting it under control in Gotham and most importantly he couldn't go with Tim with Gotham like that and Damian under his teaching and he must keep these two away from each other. So Tim sets out to do what he thinks is right and proved himself well. Everything is that bad just because Bruce was not there. I chuckled at how he didn't dare to tell Bruce his mess with Damian lol.  

What I find funny is how much Tim talks about himself and how he's this scorned hero genius throughout the whole book. It was foroced, not written very well if it tried to show off Tims talent. That's why I can't take Tims pain as more than a teenager's who's damaged and insecure and needs Bruce to get over all that.

----------


## Mataza

I think Ozymandias could easily be the voice in Red Robin 25 if they decided to go that way, he has the same highbrow attitude Ozymandias has, a love for things ancient, the same philosphy: "using evil to fight evil".


And i meant the whole "Heroes in Crisis" thing, Tim having one of the people that was at the facility, and he got treated there because of his depression during his time as Robin and Red Robin. They could even do the identity crisis thing, they erased his memory to avoid the trauma.

----------


## Pohzee

> Eh, I dunno. RR costume was nice, but I feel like the cowl lacks... someting. Too plain and rounded. But I guess that's me, I have this same problem with this kind of cowl everytime.


Maybe give the cowl a yellow “beak.”

----------


## Mataza

> I chuckled at how he didn't dare to tell Bruce his mess with Damian lol.


No idea what you wrote before, but this isnt true. Its one of the things they talk about when Bruce gets back. In the Red Robin book.




> What I find funny is how much Tim talks about himself and how he's this scorned hero genius throughout the whole book.


He never talked like that. What are you talking about? All he did was criticize and devalue himself, same as he always does. He has always been self deprecating. Not insecure tho, if anything he knows his own limits better than anybody.
How he failed Batman as a Robin. How he was wearing a tainted costume, even Kon bringing up the fact that Tim is quite literally punishing himself by using it. He was at the bottom, and his only friend was Ras Al Ghul. 
He doesnt think of himself as a genius and he was scorned, literally everyone thought he was insane, and with good reason by his own admision.




> It was foroced, not written very well if it tried to show off Tims talent. That's why I can't take Tims pain as more than a teenager's who's damaged and insecure and needs Bruce to get over all that.


It was very well writen, Yost did an amazing job there. Also, you pointing out something doesnt automatically make it bad, there needs to be an intellegible argument for that. 




> Maybe give the cowl a yellow “beak.”



g1-e1350017268703.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

If Razzlegool is the only friend you've got, I will admit you're in deep trouble.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Thats dumb, an argument has to stand on its own merits, regardless of who makes it.


Not when the argument is based on personal opinion.

----------


## CPSparkles

> You really think Dick did the best he could? I know you're not a fan of Tim, but even you have to admit Dick had a misstep there.
> 
> For Tim who looked up to Dick like a brother, there was a lack of respect  for Tim on Dick's end in how things conspired. I'll give an example; What if Damian came home one day to find Harper Row dressed up as Robin with Bruce coming out and saying: "My dear son, Harper is the new Robin. Your time is up." In that moment Bruce would strip what is most important in Damian's life to him(outside of family), like Dick had done to Tim. That would be completely disrespectful if Bruce did something like that. Now if he wanted to make Harper the new Robin, and had a prior discussion with Damian about the matter before making the move and everyone was on board, there would be no reason to call foul.
> 
> Point being, Dick didn't do the best he could with handling that situation. Had Grayson talked to Tim beforehand I doubt he would have stormed off; instead Tim was left hurt from all that he lost, and betrayed because of what was stripped from him(one of the few things he had left). No one is perfect. Tim didn't handle the situation to the best of his ability, and nor did Dick.


Damian did com home and find that people running around calling themselves Robins sanctioned by Alfred. He disagreed stayed until the issue was resolved.

Just because i don't share your view doesn't mean I don't Tim. I like Tim.

Anyway having read all the posts from both sides here. I still say that Dick did the best he could I don't fault him. I commend him for stepping up like he did and for asking Tim to seek help.
If circumstances had been different. If Dick wasn't also struggling himself then maybe I would expect him to handle it differently.

----------


## Zaresh

> Maybe give the cowl a yellow “beak.”


Some color would be good, yes. But red is probably a better change; some red detail in the cowl.

But it's totally subjective. Just my opinion.

----------


## KrustyKid

> *Damian did com home and find that people running around calling themselves Robins* sanctioned by Alfred. He disagreed stayed until the issue was resolved.
> 
> Just because i don't share your view doesn't mean I don't Tim. I like Tim.
> 
> Anyway having read all the posts from both sides here. I still say that Dick did the best he could I don't fault him. I commend him for stepping up like he did and for asking Tim to seek help.
> If circumstances had been different. If Dick wasn't also struggling himself then maybe I would expect him to handle it differently.


The difference there was they were calling themselves 'Robin', and Damian wasn't unexpectedly asked to take another role. They were 'pretenders' as I recall Damian putting it. Definitely not the same.

So you don't believe had Dick spoken with Tim prior to promoting Damian to Robin would have helped the situation?

----------


## KrustyKid

> No idea what you wrote before, but this isnt true. Its one of the things they talk about when Bruce gets back. In the Red Robin book.
> 
> 
> He never talked like that. What are you talking about? All he did was criticize and devalue himself, same as he always does. He has always been self deprecating. Not insecure tho, if anything he knows his own limits better than anybody.
> How he failed Batman as a Robin. How he was wearing a tainted costume, even Kon bringing up the fact that Tim is quite literally punishing himself by using it. He was at the bottom, and his only friend was Ras Al Ghul. 
> He doesnt think of himself as a genius and he was scorned, literally everyone thought he was insane, and with good reason by his own admision.
> 
> 
> It was very well writen, Yost did an amazing job there. Also, you pointing out something doesnt automatically make it bad, there needs to be an intellegible argument for that. 
> ...


I'd love to see all the Robin's wearing helmets like that, at least for one team-up arc lol

----------


## CPSparkles

> The difference there was they were calling themselves 'Robin', and Damian wasn't unexpectedly asked to take another role. They were 'pretenders' as I recall Damian putting it. Definitely not the same.
> 
> So you don't believe had Dick spoken with Tim prior to promoting Damian to Robin would have helped the situation?


They were functioning as Robin.
Of course it would have even better if they all sat down and had a discussion about it or if Tim had not ran away but no one was in the right head space so in the circumstances Dick did the best he could. I don't fault him even a tiny bit.

----------


## dietrich

> Interesting and cringy. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.  Suddenly I miss Atlanta96.


It's not wishful thinking. lifted it from AO3. It was the plot of a Tim Drake fanfiction on the site.

I wonder what happened to Atlanta he made Tim's utter irrelevance fun.

----------


## KrustyKid

> *They were functioning as Robin*.
> Of course it would have even better if they all sat down and had a discussion about it or if Tim had not ran away but no one was in the right head space so in the circumstances Dick did the best he could. I don't fault him even a tiny bit.


In name only. They weren't there to replace Damian, nor were they partners to any Batman/Gordon,Bruce, Dick, etc.

----------


## Pohzee

> It's not wishful thinking. lifted it from AO3. It was the plot of a Tim Drake fanfiction on the site.
> 
> I wonder what happened to Atlanta he made Tim's utter irrelevance fun.


Got banned for a month for increasingly more hostile comments about Duke/Snyder. Came back after the ban and lasted less than a month before he was banned again. So he swore off the sight. He came back once to refute a claim about The "Poison Ivy League" during The War of Jokes and Riddles controversy, but made it clear that it would be his only post. He has a Twitter of the same name though, and I usually look at it come solicits because I find such a whiny perspective of things amusing.

----------


## dietrich

> Got banned for a month for increasingly more hostile comments about Duke/Snyder. Came back after the ban and lasted less than a month before he was banned again. So he swore off the sight. He came back once to refute a claim about The "Poison Ivy League" during The War of Jokes and Riddles controversy, but made it clear that it would be his only post. He has a Twitter of the same name though, and I usually look at it come solicits because I find such a whiny perspective of things amusing.


Shame his posts were often amusing.

----------


## Mataza

> It's not wishful thinking.


Fanfiction is wishful thinking for the most part.

----------


## Digifiend

> Attachment 67969


Ah, G-Force/Battle of the Planets/Eagle Riders. 

You could've also used Falcon from Avengers Assemble's first three seasons, he has a similar beak visor (it was changed to something like the movie costume in season 4, as he got aged up thanks to time travel).

----------


## Earth Prime Archivist

> I thought earth prime is no more. Unless i missed something.


Earth Prime still exists. It's the one Earth the others in the multiverse came from.

----------


## KrustyKid

Robins assembled;

2be1a3f171e82a6539210acd0b2f51b3.jpg

----------


## Mataza

> Earth Prime still exists. It's the one Earth the others in the multiverse came from.


I guess if anyone could answer it, thatd be you.

----------


## Sardorim

Hmmm... So, what this Earth?

The old Earth that was pre52 exists still based off Dectective comics during the Brother TimEye arc. 

Which means all that pre 52 history isn't associate with any of the 52 characters?

----------


## Mataza

This is Prime Earth, its basically New Earth (pre flashpoint continuity) with a some differences plus all the temporal shenanigans flashpoint provoked. Tho im still not clear on what happened with New Earth.

Most of the pre 52 history still happened in Prime earth, but it was erased by flashpoint/manhattan.

----------


## Dataweaver

There’s a reason I refer to it as Primary Earth; less confusion that way.  According to Multiversity, Earth Prime is Earth-33; and it definitely still exists, since it’s the Earth where _we’re_ located.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

And this is why I hate the multiverse.

----------


## Grizzly

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Produc...nDetails/76647

----------


## Mataza

Thats actually pretty great. i love that costume.

----------


## gohei_

Since I am slowly finishing up the Robin trades available on Comixology (which goes to issue 22) I decided to take advantage of the big DC sale they had just days ago and thought I would get all the rest of the run in single issues. Even with the sale though the price was way more than I was ready for at the moment lol. It ended up with me getting 30 or so issues instead. 
Really liking this run so far, though I feel like I should be reading the Knightfall story together with some of this.

----------


## millernumber1

> Since I am slowly finishing up the Robin trades available on Comixology (which goes to issue 22) I decided to take advantage of the big DC sale they had just days ago and thought I would get all the rest of the run in single issues. Even with the sale though the price was way more than I was ready for at the moment lol. It ended up with me getting 30 or so issues instead. 
> Really liking this run so far, though I feel like I should be reading the Knightfall story together with some of this.


Nice! I'm still debating about trying to get a lot of the uncollected single issues of various series myself.  :Smile: 

I'd wait on the Knightfall stuff until the new collections are published later this year.

----------


## gohei_

> Nice! I'm still debating about trying to get a lot of the uncollected single issues of various series myself. 
> 
> I'd wait on the Knightfall stuff until the new collections are published later this year.


Yeah I did some digging and there seems to be a lot of issues and titles around the Knightfall story. Not sure I wanna go down that rabbit hole  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah I did some digging and there seems to be a lot of issues and titles around the Knightfall story. Not sure I wanna go down that rabbit hole


It's a pretty good story. But a lot of the issues are left out of the older collections, and the new collections that are coming will be the most complete ones that I'm aware of.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Yeah I did some digging and there seems to be a lot of issues and titles around the Knightfall story. Not sure I wanna go down that rabbit hole


You have to It's a great story, don't miss it!
I'm happy that there still are people who want to read Tim solo run, it's my favorite (at least since Dixon was on it). Enjoy it!

----------


## Restingvoice

> Hmmm... So, what this Earth?
> 
> The old Earth that was pre52 exists still based off Dectective comics during the Brother TimEye arc. 
> 
> Which means all that pre 52 history isn't associate with any of the 52 characters?





> This is Prime Earth, its basically New Earth (pre flashpoint continuity) with a some differences plus all the temporal shenanigans flashpoint provoked. Tho im still not clear on what happened with New Earth.
> 
> Most of the pre 52 history still happened in Prime earth, but it was erased by flashpoint/manhattan.


The main earth's official name is Earth-0. It's the New 52 main earth, the Rebirth main Earth, and as of Rebirth, all the history that came before it including Post Crisis and Pre Crisis, after the timeline has been altered by Dr. Manhattan. So all the reboots that ever happened did happen. They all part of one timeline now. 

https://www.dccomics.com/characters/earth-0


Earth-33 is Earth Prime, where Ultra Comics from Multiversity originate.

There were three version of Multiverse. The first one was from before Crisis of Infinite Earths, and they consist of... well, infinite Earths. The second one is in Post Crisis, where there's only one Earth. The third one is defined in Multiversity consist of 52 Earths.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Tim and "The Hole"  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> You have to It's a great story, don't miss it!
> I'm happy that there still are people who want to read Tim solo run, it's my favorite (at least since Dixon was on it). Enjoy it!


It's always fun to know that the stuff we loved find new people to love it! And Tim's solo is definitely worth loving!

----------


## shadowsgirl

Rebirth Red Robin 6” Mattel

----------


## shadowsgirl

Red Robin Ikemen Statue. This version is so much better than the other one with a winking eye

----------


## Starter Set

Man, that statue looks fantastic.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Man, that statue looks fantastic.


Yup, can't wait.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Red Robin Ikemen Statue. This version is so much better than the other one with a winking eye


Agh, guess my wallet will have to suffer once again. That serious face is fantastic  :Big Grin:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Agh, guess my wallet will have to suffer once again. That serious face is fantastic


I'm so glad they chose Marcus To's Red Robin design for this. To's Tim looked fantastic with and without the costume.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> I'm so glad they chose Marcus To's Red Robin design for this. To's Tim looked fantastic with and without the costume.


Oh yeah for sure, Marcus To is THE Tim Drake artist for me  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Oh yeah for sure, Marcus To is THE Tim Drake artist for me


Maybe someday he will draw Tim again.  :Smile:  Tim is one of his favourites, so he would be on board with a new project. I just don't understand DC's higher-ups. Fabian Nicieza and Marcus To want to do a Red Robin solo series together again, and yet, nothing happens. Tim hasn't had a solo series since 2011. Not even a mini. It's ridiculous. It's like DC wants to bury the character without any real reason.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Red Robin Ikemen Statue. This version is so much better than the other one with a winking eye


Iconic. What came after is tragic

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah for sure, Marcus To is THE Tim Drake artist for me


I can't think of anyone I WOULDN'T want To to draw.  :Smile:

----------


## Dataweaver

I'm less enthused about the idea of Fabian writing him again. But at this point, I'd be willing to give him another shot: I doubt he'd write Tim as the super-hacker that we've been getting lately, which would be a big step in the right direction.

My _big_ concern is how well he'd write Stephanie.

----------


## CPSparkles

The Other SuperSons

----------


## CPSparkles

Bruce, Dick, Damian and Tim

----------


## Mataza

> Maybe someday he will draw Tim again.  Tim is one of his favourites, so he would be on board with a new project. I just don't understand DC's higher-ups. Fabian Nicieza and Marcus To want to do a Red Robin solo series together again, and yet, nothing happens. Tim hasn't had a solo series since 2011. Not even a mini. It's ridiculous. It's like DC wants to bury the character without any real reason.


If i had to guess, Tim directly competes with a bunch of other characters they are trying to push.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm less enthused about the idea of Fabian writing him again. But at this point, I'd be willing to give him another shot: I doubt he'd write Tim as the super-hacker that we've been getting lately, which would be a big step in the right direction.
> 
> My _big_ concern is how well he'd write Stephanie.


(Agree about FabNic trying to write Steph again...)

Has Fabian done any big ongoings for DC (or Marvel) in the past several years? They use him a lot as a fill-in writer (for cereal box comics or Convergence and the like), but I can't remember the last ongoing I read by him.

----------


## Mataza

Wasnt he a part of death of the family? Horrible story that was.

----------


## Cmbmool

> Maybe someday he will draw Tim again.  Tim is one of his favourites, so he would be on board with a new project. I just don't understand DC's higher-ups. Fabian Nicieza and Marcus To want to do a Red Robin solo series together again, and yet, nothing happens. Tim hasn't had a solo series since 2011. Not even a mini. It's ridiculous. It's like DC wants to bury the character without any real reason.


Given DC messing up the Timeline I wonder what would happen if DC took the chance to recon Tim's time as Robin into Not being Robin at all....I mean honestly what if Tim NEVER got involved with the Batman and his world post Jason Todd's death ?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Wasnt he a part of death of the family? Horrible story that was.


Tim served absolutely no purpose in that story and had like only one line of dialogue, he definitely didn't need to be included.

----------


## Mataza

Of course he did, as did every other Robin. To be turned into boy hostage before murdering the idea of the batfamily. That was the whole point of the storyline. Those characters added nothing to the mythos, they were Batmans weakness, both logistically and emotionally, and hed be better off without them.

Its in the title. I sometimes see someone say Snyder is a smart writer, but he isnt. He is a blunt object, all his stories are obvious and fall flat on their face. All style over substance, all concept over execution.

----------


## Rac7d*

tim looks so old in this post

----------


## shadowsgirl

Undercover work (Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. #5)

Tim as Jeremy Johnson, Bart as Wade, Kon as Carl

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Undercover work (Batman:Seduction of the Gun)

Tim as Todd Richards

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl

Undercover entertainment (Young Justice #23)

Tim as Al

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## dietrich

> 


Man those Minorities.

Those eyes are pretty much just  horizontal lines. Jesus.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Man those Minorities.
> 
> Those eyes are pretty much just  horizontal lines. Jesus.


Yeah, I don't think this kind of art could pass nowadays.

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah, I don't think this kind of art could pass nowadays.


Reminds me of the very old Superman and Batman comics

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Reminds me of the very old Superman and Batman comics


Like these from Detective Comics #1

----------


## dietrich

> Like these from Detective Comics #1


Good Lord! it's shocking what was once considered okay huh.

----------


## Mataza

> Good Lord! it's shocking what was once considered okay huh.


Why wouldnt it be?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Undercover work (Batman:Seduction of the Gun)
> 
> Tim as Todd Richards


"TODD RICHARDS" WITH PG-13 MATCHES MALONE DISGUISE ARE YOU SERIOUS XD

I'm dying

It's Bruce's idea wasn't it

----------


## shadowsgirl

> "TODD RICHARDS" WITH PG-13 MATCHES MALONE DISGUISE ARE YOU SERIOUS XD
> 
> I'm dying
> 
> It's Bruce's idea wasn't it


Yeah, probably he was the mastermind behind it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## KrustyKid

Bat team putting on their best reenactment, lol

tumblr_pcynlqpJ1O1r0afkdo1_1280.jpg

----------


## CPSparkles

Look at Tim. He is so happy to be called Robin and to be working with them that he can't stop smiling. Everyone else is whatever.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Look at Tim. He is so happy to be called Robin and to be working with them that he can't stop smiling. Everyone else is whatever.


I'd say Damian looks pretty excited here too

----------


## CPSparkles

> I'd say Damian looks pretty excited here too


That's just his usual smirk on. It's the same one he wears everytime  he's about to make crime lose or cause trouble

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

He's just happy both his parents are alive and one of them is not a psycho.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I am moderately worried, even if I fear even more for Kyle and Roy.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I am moderately worried, even if I fear even more for Kyle and Roy.


If Tim had not died recently I hands down would have believed he was the one who would be getting the axe, but since he pretty much just returned from death I highly doubt it's him. Kyle and Roy seem to be the top suspects, after a large gap Tim would fall in third in my mind.

I'm honestly predicting it will ultimately be Kyle.

----------


## scary harpy

> If Tim had not died recently I hands down would have believed he was the one who would be getting the axe, but since he pretty much just returned from death I highly doubt it's him. Kyle and Roy seem to be the top suspects, after a large gap Tim would fall in third in my mind.
> 
> I'm honestly predicting it will ultimately be Kyle.


Newsarama seems to narrow it down to Cyborg and Kyle.

DC does not know what to do with it's legacy characters...and has way too may Green Lanterns. Poor Kyle. (I think he would have been a great Blue Lantern...but heroes are without hope per Didio.)

----------


## scary harpy

double post.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Newsarama seems to narrow it down to Cyborg and Kyle.
> 
> DC does not know what to do with it's legacy characters...and has way too may Green Lanterns. Poor Kyle. (I think he would have been a great Blue Lantern...but heroes are without hope per Didio.)


Yep, Kyle seems to be the top pick unless a curve ball comes our way.

----------


## king81992

> Newsarama seems to narrow it down to Cyborg and Kyle.
> 
> DC does not know what to do with it's legacy characters...and has way too may Green Lanterns. Poor Kyle. (I think he would have been a great Blue Lantern...but heroes are without hope per Didio.)


I don't see Cyborg dying. Its either Kyle, Tim or Roy. All of them were shafted by the writers and no one seems to be interested in using them properly.

----------


## KrustyKid

The Bat Goth team

tumblr_pda1rrPbQ31w4ke84o1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin boys

RobinBros.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin boys

RobinBros.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't see Cyborg dying. Its either Kyle, Tim or Roy. All of them were shafted by the writers and no one seems to be interested in using them properly.


There would be a major outcry if any black character were to be killed off so I think Cyborg is safe.  Besides, he's got a movie coming out.  Tim is guaranteed never to be killed do he's safe.  I think Kyle is toast--there are thousands of Lanterns around.

----------


## KrustyKid

> There would be a major outcry if any black character were to be killed off so I think *Cyborg* is safe.  Besides, he's got a movie coming out.  Tim is guaranteed never to be killed do he's safe.  I think Kyle is toast--there are thousands of Lanterns around.


Cyborg is super safe. No way he gets offed

----------


## Mataza

Cyborg should get offed, it may lead to something actually interesting for the character. 

Maybe a backup gets activated, maybe we get to explore his soul. Maybe he becomes a full machine and struggles with losing his humanity, a shake up, he definitely needs it.

----------


## Cmbmool

> If Tim had not died recently I hands down would have believed he was the one who would be getting the axe, but since he pretty much just returned from death I highly doubt it's him. Kyle and Roy seem to be the top suspects, after a large gap Tim would fall in third in my mind.
> 
> I'm honestly predicting it will ultimately be Kyle.


Didn't Kyle sort of died before in early comics or am I thinking something else ?

----------


## Cmbmool

> Cyborg should get offed, it may lead to something actually interesting for the character. 
> 
> Maybe a backup gets activated, maybe we get to explore his soul. Maybe he becomes a full machine and struggles with losing his humanity, maybe


If Cyborg gets killed off, then I hope they reboot him and have him regain his history with the Teen Titans too.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Didn't Kyle sort of died before in early comics or am I thinking something else ?


Not nearly as recent as Tim who just came back from... death less than a year ago

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

FB_IMG_1534810628578.jpg Saw this,  made me laugh.

----------


## KrustyKid

Hahahah, that would be one interesting bat cave

----------


## byrd156

> Robin boys
> 
> RobinBros.jpg


Fingerstripes!

Tim needs the old Red Robin costume back.

----------


## KrustyKid

be_who_you___r___by_mattkrotzer-d5n1yps.jpg

The Robins

----------


## CPSparkles

> Attachment 69610 Saw this,  made me laugh.


Now that's funny.

@ krusty kid that's not just an interesting bat cave. That's the bat cave we need.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## nj06

Where is Tim currently appearing?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Where is Tim currently appearing?


Nowhere, he's scheduled in next Heroes in crisis as one of the possible victims.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Now that's funny.
> 
> @ krusty kid that's not just an interesting bat cave. That's the bat cave we need.


Lol, B-Jack for all

----------


## KurtW95

Disappointing portrayal of Tim in today’s Deathstroke issue. Always getting the short end of the stick because Damian exists.

----------


## Armor of God

How so? Priest actually added something to his character. It was the best use of him in ages.

----------


## KurtW95

> How so? Priest actually added something to his character. It was the best use of him in ages.


Tim is portrayed as a huge jerk victimizing Damian. Tim is not a huge jerk.

----------


## Mataza

The meme of Tim being jealous of damian needs to die, its pure revisionism. He never gave a crap other than Damian being a liability and trying to murder him repeatedly.
Other than that, Tim knowing everything there is to know about Damian wouldnt be strange, he spied on everyone, he kept tabs on everyone that could be a problem. His hobby was disovering secret identities, he knew figured out who superman was just out of curiosity after he figured out who Batman and the two Robins were.
There were two stories dealing with him doing it and the fallout of his actions. 

That said i thought this story was horribly predictable. Still a decent read and id like him to write the character more often.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Besides this weeks issue, was Tim in any of the other issues of the story?

----------


## RedBird

@geo_el33

----------


## dietrich

> Besides this weeks issue, was Tim in any of the other issues of the story?


He was in the 1st two issues.

----------


## Bitcohen

Ok I was wondering, can the New 52 Red Robin fly? Because he has the wings and everything for it? Right? Or can he just glide really well like the rest of the bat family? Becaue in some images it is hard to tell if he is flying or gliding....

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> He was in the 1st two issues.


Thank you sir!

----------


## millernumber1

> How so? Priest actually added something to his character. It was the best use of him in ages.


Agreed. I thought Tim was very human and sympathetic, as well as very intelligent - all the more impressive since he was "dead" during the storyline.  :Smile: 




> Tim is portrayed as a huge jerk victimizing Damian. Tim is not a huge jerk.


He's not, at all! He's depicted as angry at Damian, and given the timeline of the issue, that's totally accurate as to his feelings. But he's also portrayed as 1) being Bruce's much mourned son, 2) very loyal to Batman, 3) a detective with strong enough instincts not to send the video to Damian when he made it - Damian only got it because of Tim's death.

There is a hard edge to Tim here - but that's Priest's writing style. Everyone has a very hard edge, even the purest and kindest of characters, like Tanya Spears.




> The meme of Tim being jealous of damian needs to die, its pure revisionism. He never gave a crap other than Damian being a liability and trying to murder him repeatedly.


Tim wasn't primarily depicted as jealous of Damian here. He was hurt and angry (which is, again, accurate to what we see in Morrison's run), but also thoughtful, with a secret nerdy side (the name under which he hid the evidence).




> Thank you sir!


I think he was also in the third issue, and Damian mentions him in the fourth (#33).

----------


## Mataza

> Ok I was wondering, can the New 52 Red Robin fly? Because he has the wings and everything for it? Right? Or can he just glide really well like the rest of the bat family? Becaue in some images it is hard to tell if he is flying or gliding....


He could fly. Its actually a nod to his pre-flashpoint characterization, where he wanted to find a way to fly.

----------


## TheCape

> Tim wasn't primarily depicted as jealous of Damian here. He was hurt and angry (which is, again, accurate to what we see in Morrison's run), but also thoughtful, with a secret nerdy side (the name under which he hid the evidence).


Yup, i personally love that he hide the evidence under the name of one his favorite detectives, that's Tim for me and at the very least the story stated that Tim got over the whole thing quickly.

Thougth i call bullshit the part when Damian said that he wasn't trying to kill him.

----------


## Mataza

> Thougth i call bullshit the part when Damian said that he wasn't trying to kill him.


Yeah, its pretty obvious he was. But he has a tendency to make excuses.
Whats funny is that after all the training and improvements he has, after having the element of surprise, he still got beaten. And to top that humilliation he got offered a hand in friendship. Like, how much better did he even think Tim was? 

Some day someone should really adress their relationship, not this "now they are friends and respect eachother" bs that we get.

----------


## phantom1592

> Yeah, its pretty obvious he was. But he has a tendency to make excuses.
> *Whats funny is that after all the training and improvements he has, after having the element of surprise, he still got beaten.* And to top that humilliation he got offered a hand in friendship. Like, how much better did he even think Tim was? 
> 
> Some day someone should really adress their relationship, not this "now they are friends and respect eachother" bs that we get.



I think that is another reason that I never liked Damian. He's just vastly over-rated. He was what 10 when he showed up... with everyone acting like he should be awesome since he was trained all that time... 

So what? Training didn't start till he was at least out of diapers and walking... so figure 7-8 years max... and we've seen hundreds of times that 7-8 years of League of Assassin Training STILL get their butts handed to them by the Gotham Crew. Add in the smaller frame and younger body... and he's still not all he's bragged up to be. Say it was 20 years straight with Lazarus pits keeping him strong and trained by Shiva and the likes... and maybe there's something to that... However League of Assassins = Cannon Fodder for way too long for to me to take his 'super skillz' seriously.

----------


## millernumber1

> Attachment 69963
> 
> The Robins


Love this - the shapes and colors are great!

----------


## TheCape

I'm not that into talking about feats, but Morrison make a point in showing that he was using brass knuckles in the figth, it give you a clue about how his pride and ego were the most dangerous thing about him, luckily he changed for the better.

----------


## TheCape

> The Bat Goth team
> 
> Attachment 69259


So dark and tortured  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Mataza

Yep, i can take Cassandra seriously because her own origin made sense in the world. she sacrificed everything and was conditioned to fight above what any mortal could accomplish. She is a testament to what hard work, talent and unlimited potential could achieve. But we also see the drawbacks of going there, of trying to achieve that. She is autistic, incapable of having a normal life, eternally tortured by her own past. Her life is constant struggle and only her strong moral compass has saved her from a life as a lapdog. 

Its why i say Damian is a caricature sometimes, he is basically the poster child for eugenics. Everything gets handwaved as being thanks to his "strong genetics". Despite his troubled past he can still hold normal relationships. Everywhere he shows up he is treated as the "betterest mostest qualifiedest hero" and he can get away with anything, including harming fellow heroes or outright murder just because of his "son of batman" status.
I like the character, but his attitude is sometimes grating.

----------


## TheCape

And i opened a pandora box again, first the Wolverine vs Laura debate and now this  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Armor of God

> I think that is another reason that I never liked Damian. He's just vastly over-rated. He was what 10 when he showed up... with everyone acting like he should be awesome since he was trained all that time... 
> 
> So what? Training didn't start till he was at least out of diapers and walking... so figure 7-8 years max... and we've seen hundreds of times that 7-8 years of League of Assassin Training STILL get their butts handed to them by the Gotham Crew. Add in the smaller frame and younger body... and he's still not all he's bragged up to be. Say it was 20 years straight with Lazarus pits keeping him strong and trained by Shiva and the likes... and maybe there's something to that... However League of Assassins = Cannon Fodder for way too long for to me to take his 'super skillz' seriously.


I'm struggling to remember, just who exactly was acting that he's awesome?
Batman and Robin 0 addressed the training.

----------


## phantom1592

> I'm struggling to remember, just who exactly was acting that he's awesome?
> Batman and Robin 0 addressed the training.


The fans mostly  :Wink:

----------


## Fergus

> The fans mostly


Not just fans. WB/DC, Writers, Bruce and Dick Grayson etc.

----------


## Armor of God

> The fans mostly


Fans were gained over time as were Damian's various partnerships. Your post insinuated that everyone was on board with him because of his background when he first arrived and thats simply false. Still I dont know why a Tim appreciation has to become a Damian unappreciation thread.

----------


## Mataza

> Fans were gained over time as were Damian's various partnerships. Your post insinuated that everyone was on board with him because of his background when he first arrived and thats simply false. Still I dont know why a Tim appreciation has to become a Damian unappreciation thread.


Deathstroke. You cant really discuss Tim in Deathstroke without discussing Damian.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah, its pretty obvious he was. But he has a tendency to make excuses.
> Whats funny is that after all the training and improvements he has, after having the element of surprise, he still got beaten. And to top that humilliation he got offered a hand in friendship. Like, how much better did he even think Tim was? 
> 
> *Some day someone should really adress their relationship*, not this "now they are friends and respect eachother" bs that we get.


Exactly this! I'd love to see how Tim and Damian's relationship went from how it used to be where it is now. There's definitely potential there for a good story.

----------


## KrustyKid

Tim and Conner,

tumblr_pd3nbuhUUs1vnmxrwo1_1280.jpg

----------


## RedBird

gbj_Bellgreen

----------


## KrustyKid

> gbj_Bellgreen



Love those! YJ3 for life

----------


## KrustyKid

So which Robin boy makes the best lady? My vote is staggering between Tim and Jason, Damian for the solid third, lol

tumblr_pd4sw6gQxo1rq2wg5o2_1280.jpg

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> gbj_Bellgreen


It looks like Tim's winding up to kick Kon in the berries.

----------


## KrustyKid

> It looks like Tim's winding up to kick Kon in the berries.


Now that you mention it, it kinda does, lol

----------


## KrustyKid

Another one for Tim and Conner;

tumblr_pdetzltOc71u79llro1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin boys looking pretty awesome here;

tumblr_pejfzkrK691u9e4eko1_r1_1280.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

So, what do people think of Tim in the Walmart Teen Titans Giant comics? He seems pretty cool, though we haven't seen him outside of his costume.

----------


## phantom1592

> So, what do people think of Tim in the Walmart Teen Titans Giant comics? He seems pretty cool, though we haven't seen him outside of his costume.


Is it something new? The covers I've seen seem to be the John's Teen Titans vs. Deathstroke and honestly I LOVE that Tim... I LOVE that costume.  But I also already own them :P

----------


## CPSparkles

> So, what do people think of Tim in the Walmart Teen Titans Giant comics? He seems pretty cool, though we haven't seen him outside of his costume.


Still waiting for my copy to arrive but from the pages I saw he was very Tan.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Is it something new? The covers I've seen seem to be the John's Teen Titans vs. Deathstroke and honestly I LOVE that Tim... I LOVE that costume.  But I also already own them :P


Yep, definetly one of my favorite Robin suits

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> So, what do people think of Tim in the Walmart Teen Titans Giant comics? He seems pretty cool, though we haven't seen him outside of his costume.


I have to hunt down issue 2 and 1, I have 3.   When  3 came out, both our Walmarts removed all the other issues from the bins.

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin squad;

tumblr_pfe9wfLg3k1xh6x19o1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Super/Bat fam combo

tumblr_pfm5pmjJig1sd2t3mo1_1280.jpg
tumblr_pfm5pmjJig1sd2t3mo2_1280.jpg

----------


## Mataza

Calling it now, they brainwashed Tim at sanctuary. He went too far, this was teased at the end of Red Robin.

----------


## scary harpy

> Calling it now, they brainwashed Tim at sanctuary. He went too far, this was teased at the end of Red Robin.


Why would Tim be at the Sanctuary?

He was last seen driving away with Stephanie to college.

----------


## Restingvoice

Tim was on the hit list, but story-wise he's no reason to be in Sanctuary. So the list doesn't necessarily portray who are being treated at Sanctuary but who are going to be involved in the story in any way.

----------


## phantom1592

> Tim was on the hit list, but story-wise he's no reason to be in Sanctuary. So the list doesn't necessarily portray who are being treated at Sanctuary but who are going to be involved in the story in any way.


Didn't he have to fight an evil version of himself from the future... and then get taken over by an OMAC and turn on his allies in the present?  

I could picture him needing a sanctuary tune up without bending believability too much....

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, I just don't like if they're sent off to find themselves on their own but then suddenly appear here with no build up.

----------


## Dataweaver

If Tim comes back, I'm not going to be there. I've been here before, from 2003's Graduation Day until Flashpoint and the New 52 (though I'll admit I dropped out then due to financial circumstances; N52 just served as a convenient stopping point for me); I'm not interested in going through that again, so I'm stepping out now.

My one regret is Tim; he was my favorite DC character, and I'll miss him. But the way things are going at DC ever since Metal began, I don't think I'd like what he'll be like when next he appears. At this point, I'm down to one DC title, Doomsday Clock; and unless it pulls out a miracle, when that ends I'll be done with DC entirely.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Why would Tim be at the Sanctuary?
> 
> He was last seen driving away with Stephanie to college.


If you read it carefully, they were not heading in the direction of college.   My assumption was they were leading into Young Justice with this.   He be going off to find Conner.

----------


## Mataza

No, i mean he got a Identity Crisis Dr. Light treatment. Back then, he was one of the people "healed" at the sanctuary. Thats what im thinking happened.

The trauma was everything that happened to him since identity crisis.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Calling it now, they brainwashed Tim at sanctuary. He went too far, this was teased at the end of Red Robin.


But the Red Robin events never happened and all his post identity crisis trauma never happened. Not to current Tim. I think it turn up at Sanctuary investigating or something along those lines.

Did anyone see the Doomsday #9 cover with Tim's outfit on the cover? Looks like he might show up there.

----------


## RedBird

> I think it turn up at Sanctuary investigating or something along those lines.


Wait, so was Tim actually in issue #1 of HIC?

----------


## byrd156

> Wait, so was Tim actually in issue #1 of HIC?


No unless he was a corpse wearing the robe and mask.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Wait, so was Tim actually in issue #1 of HIC?


No he wasn't but he was teased prior along with other candidates for the chopping block so the theory is that he'll likely be part of the story at some point.

----------


## RedBird

Ah I see, well hopefully he IS just an investigator within the story and not another eventual death, I don't think I want to see any more bloodshed unless the story actually uses Booster to reverse everything by the end.

----------


## phantom1592

> Ah I see, well hopefully he IS just an investigator within the story and not another eventual death, I don't think I want to see any more bloodshed unless the story actually uses Booster to reverse everything by the end.


Has Tim had any real contact with any of the victims before? Wally and Roy were Dick's teammates... Even if they had gone with Starfire or Cyborg there could be some Titan crossover... but Roy and Wally... It would be really weird to have Tim be in this story at all. 

As for Booster?? Hasn't like EVERY appearance he been in since infinite Crisis been completely about how he CAN'T go back in time and save lives?? The eternal Time Traveler dilemma?? I'm not sure what will annoy me more. Breaking Boosters concept more... or leaving them all dead.... This is just a lose/lose here.

----------


## Aahz

> Has Tim had any real contact with any of the victims before? Wally and Roy were Dick's teammates... Even if they had gone with Starfire or Cyborg there could be some Titan crossover... but Roy and Wally... It would be really weird to have Tim be in this story at all.


Tim teamed iirc during No Men's Land up with Wally, when his family moved temporary from Gotham to Keystone City.
And with Lagoon Boy and Hotspot he might had some connection via Young Justice and Hotspot (they were iirc in some stories where the Titans/Young Justice called in a huge number of reserve members for big fights).

----------


## RedBird

> As for Booster?? Hasn't like EVERY appearance he been in since infinite Crisis been completely about how he CAN'T go back in time and save lives?? The eternal Time Traveler dilemma?? I'm not sure what will annoy me more. Breaking Boosters concept more... or leaving them all dead.... *This is just a lose/lose here.*


YUP, pretty much. They're both pretty crappy alternatives, I guess I figure if it means this story can be more self contained and just end where it started I think I'd be....Well not 'happy', but slightly less annoyed with the consequences.




> Has Tim had any real contact with any of the victims before? Wally and Roy were Dick's teammates... Even if they had gone with Starfire or Cyborg there could be some Titan crossover... but Roy and Wally... It would be really weird to have Tim be in this story at all.


As far as new52/rebirth goes? Hard to say, at this point I think he's just in the lineup cause he certainly ain't busy.

----------


## RedBird

MarcusTo






_Fall is totally Tim Drake’s asthetic imo

#TimDrake_

----------


## RedBird

@winterRimyeah

----------


## KrustyKid

> MarcusTo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Fall is totally Tim Drakes asthetic imo
> 
> #TimDrake_


Love how he draws Tim

----------


## scary harpy

> @winterRimyeah


Beautiful.

I liked this costume. Tim being able to fly distinguished him from other Robins.

----------


## dietrich

> Beautiful.
> 
> I liked this costume. Tim being able to fly distinguished him from other Robins.


A flying Batmobile and a Goliath count don't they? 

Also







Jason has Arty.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I hope Tim doesn't show at all in Heroes in Crisis, could only be further troubles.
The only way i'd like to have Tim is in a journey searching his best friend Conner (possibly along with Steph), everything else would be bad, i'm afraid.

----------


## millernumber1

> A flying Batmobile and a Goliath count don't they? 
> 
> Also


Missing the Tim and Steph panel...



Source: https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/17...2/love-fan-art

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> 


Classic Dixon/Nolan 'Tec!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Classic Dixon/Nolan 'Tec!


These are from The Joker: Devil's Advocate one-shot, but yeah, classic Dixon/Nolan.  :Smile:

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> These are from The Joker: Devil's Advocate one-shot, but yeah, classic Dixon/Nolan.


Ah, I don't have that (yet), it's on my wish list.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ah, I don't have that (yet), it's on my wish list.


It's one of my favourite Joker stories.  :Smile:

----------


## Restingvoice

DorARWNV4AEWzBI.jpg

Brian Bendis To Launch DC Teen Imprint, Wonder Comics – Young Justice, Wonder Twins, Dial H

We have now been informed that this is the new Brian Bendis line at DC Comics. From the man who co-created Miles Morales, the Ultimate Spider-Man and Riri Williams, Ironheart, comes Wonder Comics. 

An in-continuity teen-character imprint at DC Comics.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...-twins-dial-h/

----------


## RedBird

> Attachment 71735
> 
> Brian Bendis To Launch DC Teen Imprint, Wonder Comics – Young Justice, Wonder Twins, Dial H
> 
> We have now been informed that this is the new Brian Bendis line at DC Comics. From the man who co-created Miles Morales, the Ultimate Spider-Man and Riri Williams, Ironheart, comes Wonder Comics. 
> 
> An in-continuity teen-character imprint at DC Comics.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...-twins-dial-h/


OH NICE! So YJ is definitely back  :Big Grin: 

Good to see 90s Kon again
And assuming that's Tim, hopefully, it means he at least won't be dying in HiC and actually has a book to feature in. Finally, some good news.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

Oh man, so excited for the gang to be back together.   Though I wish they would have just gone with t-shirt Kon.

----------


## Pohzee

Interestingly, Tim's logo only has a single R. I wonder what that means...

----------


## RedBird

> Interestingly, Tim's logo only has a single R. I wonder what that means...


Really it does? I couldn't tell from the image, bit too blurry.

Well, maybe it means this comic, whilst in continuity as they claim, is actually set in the past for Tim, during his Robin days, hopefully that means the timelines are getting fixed.

Or maybe DC has really just stopped giving a crap and we're gonna have two robins at once.

----------


## Pohzee

Tim can be Robin and Damian can be Nightwing if Ric is not using it.

----------


## CPSparkles

> OH NICE! So YJ is definitely back 
> 
> Good to see 90s Kon again
> And assuming that's Tim, hopefully, it means he at least won't be dying in HiC and actually has a book to feature in. Finally, some good news.


Great news. We always knew it was coming back nice to see that it seems like it'll follow the original.

----------


## Restingvoice

It's one R

DorYc0VXgAAEHl9.jpg

They say in continuity but didn't say when. In the past? A retcon after Tim said he didn't know any Kon? Because this does look like past versions, except for Tim's outfit.

I heard Impulse back in The Flash though. When was that? What's the context?

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay official image released by DC themselves. They didn't say anything about continuity. Just that it's a new imprint.

DoruWEyW4AAedVX.jpg

----------


## RedBird

> It's one R
> 
> DorYc0VXgAAEHl9.jpg
> 
> They say in continuity but didn't say when. In the past? A retcon after Tim said he didn't know any Kon? Because this does look like past versions, except for Tim's outfit.
> 
> I heard Impulse back in The Flash though. When was that? What's the context?


I mean, I kinda hope it's a retcon, more fulfillment of the OG history? Yes please. 

DC have certainly been tip toeing around the history thing haven't they, but if things like Dicks recent appearance in Batman #54 are anything to go by, he certainly doesn't look 16 anymore when Bruce picks him up, so it's possible that new52 origin is scrapped. And I mean Tynion did the same thing in TEC bringing back the Tims og origin after the new52 tried to modernize him as a hacker more so than a traditional detective. I think the writers might just be trying to sweep things under the rug a little and bring back some of the history as quietly as possible, for now at least. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this is just another lil something added on. I doubt we're gonna hear many complaints about Tims new52 history being 'tarnished'. :P

OR as I said before. Not one Robin but two. Not the greatest idea I'd rather the history be restored, but it could work too honestly. It might be weird having a shared identity, but Tim and Damian are way too distinct from each other for it to become a serious issue, at least for now.

----------


## RedBird

> Okay official image released by DC themselves. They didn't say anything about continuity. Just that it's a new imprint.
> 
> DoruWEyW4AAedVX.jpg


Well now, I wish I had gotten a chance to read that before commenting. Never mind I guess. I retract everything. :P
Still looking forward to the comic though.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well now, I wish I had gotten a chance to read that before commenting. Never mind I guess. I retract everything. :P
> Still looking forward to the comic though.


No, no, they didn't say anything, doesn't mean it's not in continuity. They only just unveil it so we don't have details just yet.

----------


## Frontier

Tim has been said to be central to the new Young Justice book. Bendis even referred to him as Robin.

----------


## Restingvoice

Newsarama reported it's in continuity

----------


## RedBird

> Newsarama reported it's in continuity


Then I retract my retraction :P


And since one of the statements from Bendis imply that some of these characters will be meeting each other for the first time in this continuity, I think that makes it more likely that it will be set in present time as well.

_“These characters mean a lot to each other personally. Some of them not in this continuity, so they’re gonna meet each other for the first time,” Bendis told the audience during Jim Lee and Dan DiDio’s first DC panel at NYCC 2018. He then joked about how he’s been excited about bringing Conner Kent back for quite some time.
_
_“People have been asking for them over and over again,” DiDio added. “But we don’t want to bring them back and have nothing to do with them. It wasn’t until Brian came back and said he wanted to do Young Justice that we decided it was time to bring them back.”
_

EDIT: Here's the source for the quote. https://www.cbr.com/bendis-curated-i...wonder-comics/

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Tim has been said to be central to the new Young Justice book. Bendis even referred to him as Robin.


Given that Dixon Tim was basically Proto-Ult. Peter, I'm quite encouraged by this.

----------


## phantom1592

I'm to the point where I just consider the current continuity a lost cause. If they want to give us a book that is it's own thing with the 90's versions of these characters with no ties whatsoever with Damien or nu52 titans or Flashpoint... I would be just fine with that. 

Pretty much like the YJ show. That is its own continuity and generally well liked.  Let's just do that for a while. Besides, I still expect another huge reboot/retcon/upheaval after Doomsday Clock so let's not try tying anything down to THIS world.

----------


## Restingvoice

> _People have been asking for them over and over again, DiDio added. But we dont want to bring them back and have nothing to do with them. It wasnt until Brian came back and said he wanted to do Young Justice that we decided it was time to bring them back.
> _
> 
> EDIT: Here's the source for the quote. https://www.cbr.com/bendis-curated-i...wonder-comics/


Again with the bad and biased decision. The man in charge of DC Comics doesn't like to listen to fans, only star writers. No wonder they can't beat Marvel in sales.

----------


## shadowsgirl

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ic-con-1149422

"The four titles will feature mix revivals of existing characters and concepts with all-new material and new incarnations of familiar identities and names. The flagship of the line will be Young Justice, written by Bendis, which teams Robin (Tim Drake, who Bendis called “the best Robin"), Impulse and Superboy (Connor Kent, the 1990s version of the character) with a number of new characters"


So it seems like Bendis likes Tim, and he wants him to be Robin.

----------


## josai21

I'm actually really excited about this  :Smile:

----------


## godisawesome

(Finally catches up on this news.)

....

...heh...hehehe...Ha Ha Ha!... Hahahahahahahah!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yes!

Now please don't suck!

----------


## Konja7

I wonder if this mean DC will retcon Tim's story in New 52.

I don't have much problem about this (especially if Teen Titans of Lobdell is erased), but I'm confused about the situation.

----------


## phantom1592

The costume confuses me... have we ever seen anything like this in flashbacks or something that I've missed?

Honestly.... I don't hate it. It seems to combine the scalloped cape and bat-bracers of One year later with the traditional Tim Drake Robin suit... and it kind of works. 

Which really amazes me as I have outright hated EVERY costume change he's had since he got the original 'new robin' suit. It's a lot like Cyclops. Every costume since Jim Lee's in the 90's has just been downhill. So many changed... so many missteps.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Tim has been said to be central to the new Young Justice book. Bendis even referred to him as Robin.


I am a man only DC, so I know very little about Bendis but I feel a feeling of love grow towards this man. 
I hope I will not be disappointed with him like Tynion did

----------


## Badou

As someone that suffered through Bendis' X-Men run I really don't have high hopes for this, but the good is that Bendis hates continuity and I'd be surprised if the crappy New 52 continuity won't be completely removed. Bendis is going to make his own continuity with them.

----------


## Flashback

> Again with the bad and biased decision. The man in charge of DC Comics doesn't like to listen to fans, only star writers. No wonder they can't beat Marvel in sales.


I think your missing the point or at least misinterpreting what he means.

Its not like they didn't want to bring them back, they just didn't have *any plans* for them if they brought them...just look at Nightwing, and you can see how not having a plans for said characters can lead.

Brian has plans/ideas for Young Justice team, so DC could finally rest easy and bring them back.

----------


## phantom1592

The only thing I actually like Bendis writing was Ultimate Spider-man and the first 2-3 trades of All New X-Men. That idea ran longer than it should have... but it started well. 

As Tim's continuity is shot... and Classic Tim and Ultimate Spider-man… are REALLY similar, He MAY do a good job with this. 

The rest of the team I don't know about... but he COULD succeed with a good Teenage Tim voice.

----------


## WonderNight

has tim been deaged? he looks damian's age.

----------


## yohyoi

> has tim been deaged? he looks damian's age.


Not just deaged but also demoted. Tim is returning to Robin since Red Robin was a failure. We will probably get a Damian Teen Titan vs Tim Young Justice somewhere. Robin vs Robin.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Red Robin was a failure.


That's not honest. Red Robin pre-flashpoint was really good and a natural evolution of the character was beginning in an interesting and sensible way. 
Then the N52 arrived ...

----------


## yohyoi

> That's not honest. Red Robin pre-flashpoint was really good and a natural evolution of the character was beginning in an interesting and sensible way. 
> Then the N52 arrived ...


By failure, I mean the present. So I was still right.

----------


## Mosameen

> By failure, I mean the present. So I was still right.


Red Robin series was good and enjoyable. Sure, his appearance in rebirth wasn't good but I really hoped that after Doomsday clock is done him and the old TT will take over the Titans series. Even though I wished for his Saviour persona to have a series of it's won where he can appear as a time traveler hero.

----------


## Konja7

> Red Robin series was good and enjoyable. Sure, his appearance in rebirth wasn't good but I really hoped that after Doomsday click is done him and the old TT will take over the Titans series. Even though I wished for his Saviour persona to have a series of it's won where he can appear as a time traveler hero.


Well, we don't know the plans of Bendis for Tim, but I doubt we will recover the old stories of Tim with tge Young Justice. 

Tim seems younger than his New52 version. I wonder if some retcon of years will happen for this Young Justice. 


PS: If this is the case, I expect Teen Titans Lobdell to be retconned (including the issue with Cassie and Trigon).

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think your missing the point or at least misinterpreting what he means.
> 
> Its not like they didn't want to bring them back, they just didn't have *any plans* for them if they brought them...just look at Nightwing, and you can see how not having a plans for said characters can lead.
> 
> Brian has plans/ideas for Young Justice team, so DC could finally rest easy and bring them back.


He literally said "we dont want to bring them back"  ...and has no plan for them. "And". Not "because" they don't have a plan. 
Also, they had a plan for Nightwing, fighting people trying to hack his brain because he holds so many secret identity information. They just change it for this random amnesia thing. Deliberately cancelling their own plan.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Found this around, it seem beautiful.

41823557_2240832549278260_5627259223890128865_n.jpg

----------


## king81992

> Well, we don't know the plans of Bendis for Tim, but I doubt we will recover the old stories of Tim with tge Young Justice. 
> 
> Tim seems younger than his New52 version. I wonder if some retcon of years will happen for this Young Justice. 
> 
> 
> PS: If this is the case, I expect Teen Titans Lobdell to be retconned (including the issue with Cassie and Trigon).


Based on what little we've seen,I think that Bendis is getting rid of all the crazy stuff that Lobdell and Johns came up with to give the YJ crew a clean slate.

----------


## Mosameen

> Based on what little we've seen,I think that Bendis is getting rid of all the crazy stuff that Lobdell and Johns came up with to give the YJ crew a clean slate.


Judging by Bendis history with Marvel and Superman. I would like him to be writing with editors supervision since it seems he always want to write his own continuity regardless of the other titles that are in the same continuity. If there is a big plan in working then sure but if they are giving it to him on a whim because he wants to write it then I hope he keeps it within current continuity but what I fear that it would be just stories of the past that is written in some kind of flashback or re-telling like the new iteration of the SuperSons.

----------


## Konja7

> Judging by Bendis history with Marvel and Superman. I would like him to be writing with editors supervision since it seems he always want to write his own continuity regardless of the other titles that are in the same continuity. If there is a big plan in working then sure but if they are giving it to him on a whim because he wants to write it then I hope he keeps it within current continuity but what I fear that it would be just stories of the past that is written in some kind of flashback or re-telling like the new iteration of the SuperSons.


At this point, I think it's better for Tim to erase his New 52 continuity. He's pretty affected by these stories. 

A clean slate could benefit Tim.


PS: Also, editors always supervise, but they don't seem to be very demanding about continuity either.

----------


## Mosameen

> At this point, I think it's better for Tim to erase his New 52 continuity. He's pretty affected by these stories. 
> 
> A clean slate could benefit Tim.
> 
> 
> PS: Also, editors always supervise, but they don't seem to be very demanding about continuity either.


True that editors always supervise but when it come to big writers most of the time they let them do what they want. Tim needs to be written as a superhero not Robin or even RR but something akin to Dick's Nightwing where he has his own city, his own struggles, rouge gallery and not make it always Batman related or TT related. Not some fan service to sell a few issues only to get cancelled.

----------


## byrd156

> Found this around, it seem beautiful.
> 
> 41823557_2240832549278260_5627259223890128865_n.jpg


This is epic, it's dripping with style.

You can really feel the love for the character in this piece.

----------


## oasis1313

> True that editors always supervise but when it come to big writers most of the time they let them do what they want. Tim needs to be written as a superhero not Robin or even RR but something akin to Dick's Nightwing where he has his own city, his own struggles, rouge gallery and not make it always Batman related or TT related. Not some fan service to sell a few issues only to get cancelled.


Bendis is coming to make sure all your dreams come true.

----------


## Mataza

So at this point losing all the post identity crisis development seems like the only real way to go about fixing the character. 

Tbh i dont mind as long as we can get rid of the new 52 debacle.
Right now whats important is bringing him back to this likable, relatable guy that got trained by Batman, and thats doing it because its the right thing to do. Tim is already cemented as THE detective among the Robins, and the one that can pull off the batman gambit. Those elements, that worked, will naturally come back in time.

He is at his most heroic when you realize under the mask theres just a regular kid fighting completely overwhelming odds selflessly.

----------


## Pohzee

Y'all see that King pitched putting Tim on the autism spectrum but got turned down? 

What's your thoughts on that?

----------


## RedBird

> Y'all see that King pitched putting Tim on the autism spectrum but got turned down? 
> 
> What's your thoughts on that?


Wait what? Where was this?

Also, I don't think I'd mind if they presented Tim as having autism, depending on how they would have presented the condition and where on the spectrum he is, like how specifically does it affect him, you know. As long as it made no drastic changes to his character. Though I wonder why on Earth King was pitching this, did he have a story in mind for Tim?

----------


## Pohzee

> Wait what? Where was this?
> 
> Also, I don't think I'd mind if they presented Tim as having autism, depending on how they would have presented the condition and where on the spectrum he is, like how specifically does it affect him, you know. As long as it made no drastic changes to his character. Though I wonder why on Earth King was pitching this, did he have a story in mind for Tim?


He just mentioned it at a panel. And my guess is that it would've been part of Heroes in Crisis.

----------


## RedBird

> He just mentioned it at a panel. And my guess is that it would've been part of Heroes in Crisis.


Oh. 
So, I'm guessing he was gonna introduce a disorder to a character who has never been depicted as having it before, just so said character could fit in more to his story and have a 9 panel page talking about the effects such a condition has on him before looking anguished? 

PASS. At least in this specific instance.

I'm glad it got turned down, if Tim was to be presented with a developmental disorder or any other mental condition, I would much rather see it happen in a story dedicated to his character rather than just 'adding it on' just to make him _fit_ Kings murder mystery.

----------


## Mataza

King should stay far away from anything related to batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh. Gosh. That sounds horrible. Adding something that breaks contiuity for no reason just for one event.

----------


## Hypestyle

I've read that Tim is now a villain or a semi-villain or much darker anti-hero now.  What has happened to him in the last 10 years?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I've read that Tim is now a villain or a semi-villain or much darker anti-hero now.  What has happened to him in the last 10 years?


No that's his alternate future self

----------


## skyvolt2000

> Y'all see that King pitched putting Tim on the autism spectrum but got turned down? 
> 
> What's your thoughts on that?


NO thank you.

If Tim had that issue-we would have seen it a LONG time ago. That sounds like a ploy to make death fodder for a book.

If he wanted to do that storyline-Duke is available. So is Michael Lane. So is Chase.

----------


## dietrich

> Wait what? Where was this?
> 
> Also, I don't think I'd mind if they presented Tim as having autism, depending on how they would have presented the condition and where on the spectrum he is, like how specifically does it affect him, you know. As long as it made no drastic changes to his character. Though I wonder why on Earth King was pitching this, did he have a story in mind for Tim?


Tim being on the spectrum is a pretty popular HC amongst Tim bloggers on tumblr .

----------


## TheCape

> Tim being on the spectrum is a pretty popular HC amongst Tim bloggers on tumblr .


That or some sort of depression for what i had seen.

----------


## TheCape

> Y'all see that King pitched putting Tim on the autism spectrum but got turned down? 
> 
> What's your thoughts on that?


I always iffy about giving superheroes real world mental conditions, mostly because it can easily lead to really stereotypical portrayal of it. I'm not completly against but the writer should be someone that really understand how complex that can be, i'm not sure if King is one of then frankly.

----------


## TheCape

I'm glad that Tim and the YJ are finally getting together and i hope that this relaunch is good, i'm not a big fan of Bendis and his style (i think that Ultimate Spider-Man is also really overrated) and he has a tendency to ignore continuity a lot, but with the mess that DC continuity has been for a while it doesn't bother me that much, god knows that this last few years haven't been kind to Tim. That being said, whatever plan he has for the team, well people you are in for a ride, because it's going to take at least 3 years to get there considering his pacing lol :Stick Out Tongue: .

BTW, has Tim appeared in any other tittles after the Detective Comics, besides Priest's Deathstroke?.

----------


## Lucas 35

Young Justice art by Patrick Gleason:

----------


## RedBird

Sweet!
The art looks wonderfully energetic

----------


## Denirac

Bendis confirmed at his Panel: Tim Drake will be Robin again, Not Red Robin

----------


## phantom1592

This may not be the best place to post this question... but it came to my attention reading Robin II: Joker's wild so why not :P

Was there an encounter between Batman and Joker BETWEEN Death in the Family and Robin II?   At the time I didn't think anything of it, but it's written in a way that makes it feel like Joker hasn't seen or even heard about a new Robin yet... he's very focused on the fact that 'I KILLED YOU!!!" 

However it starts with him breaking out of Arkham. Last I saw in Death in the family, the helicopter crashed and there was 'no body'.  So I'm a little curious if there was any explaination how he got back into Arkham in the first place? Was there an issue somewhere that Batman DID fight Joker again between losing a Robin and gaining a new one?

----------


## phantom1592

> Bendis confirmed at his Panel: Tim Drake will be Robin again, Not Red Robin


Still curious how it will be handled... My first instinct is that it's a prequel story set in the past... or Bendis is going to All New X-Men them and yank them from a point in the past to bring to the future.... Bart and Kon especially are just... WAY too young in these pictures...

----------


## Denirac

> Still curious how it will be handled... My first instinct is that it's a prequel story set in the past... or Bendis is going to All New X-Men them and yank them from a point in the past to bring to the future.... Bart and Kon especially are just... WAY too young in these pictures...


Josh Williamson deconfirmed that stating that Bart would show up in Flash again during Annual #2 following on from his return during Flash War, before going off to join Young Justice

----------


## Konja7

> Still curious how it will be handled... My first instinct is that it's a prequel story set in the past... or Bendis is going to All New X-Men them and yank them from a point in the past to bring to the future.... Bart and Kon especially are just... WAY too young in these pictures...


Bart Allen (not New 52 Bar Torr) will appear in Flash Annual 2, while this Superboy is Conner (not New 52 Kon-el), so we may see his origin again.

That said, Tim Drake looks younger too. So, I wonder if retcons to his story will happen too. Or maybe this is another Tim Drake.

----------


## Badou

I wonder how they will explain Tim going back to the Robin name. I guess they could deage him and wipe away all New 52 stories, but it feels a little odd that they are going to have him go by Robin again after spending so many years trying, and failing I guess, to find a place for him beyond the Robin identity.

----------


## 9th.



----------


## Mataza

> Tim being on the spectrum is a pretty popular HC amongst Tim bloggers on tumblr .


Some people tend to project.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Isn't that Jason's New 52 Robin costume? 



> Bendis confirmed at his Panel: Tim Drake will be Robin again, Not Red Robin


I can't wait to see Damian's reaction  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Konja7

It's good to confirm that Tim is Robin again. Although I wonder how he return to the name. 

Maybe there are so much retcons that he never stop to be Robin. 


Another thing, it's just an idea (probably crazy), is there a possibility that Tim Drake in Young Justice is a different person from New 52 Tim Drake? I mean I remember that Teen Titans 0 mentioned that Tim Drake was his new name.

----------


## 9th.

> Isn't that Jason's New 52 Robin costume? 
> 
> I can't wait to see Damian's reaction .


This is what I found on Google

----------


## 9th.

> It's good to confirm that Tim is Robin again. Although I wonder how he return to the name. 
> 
> Maybe there are so much retcons that he never stop to be Robin. 
> 
> 
> Another thing, it's just an idea (probably crazy), is there a possibility that Tim Drake in Young Justice is a different person from New 52 Tim Drake? I mean I remember that Teen Titans 0 mentioned that Tim Drake was his new name.


So it's confirmed this is in the present and not the past? If so DCs going to go with 2 Robin's  :Confused:

----------


## king81992

> So it's confirmed this is in the present and not the past? If so DCs going to go with 2 Robin's


That would make the most sense but DC really hasn't been making sensible decisions lately. Frankly, DC should have gone with two Robins years ago.

----------


## king81992

> It's good to confirm that Tim is Robin again. Although I wonder how he return to the name. 
> 
> Maybe there are so much retcons that he never stop to be Robin. 
> 
> 
> Another thing, it's just an idea (probably crazy), is there a possibility that Tim Drake in Young Justice is a different person from New 52 Tim Drake? I mean I remember that Teen Titans 0 mentioned that Tim Drake was his new name.


Its probably the same Tim Drake. Bendis is probably throwing out all of the stuff that Johns and the New 52 added to the YJ cast.

----------


## Mosameen

> Bendis confirmed at his Panel: Tim Drake will be Robin again, Not Red Robin


If they are going with him as Robin for just some anguish between him and Damian then it's a very idiotic idea but if it's a part of bigger plan Okay. However, being in the main continuity doesn't mean anything when it comes to Bendis and launching them under a new line "wonder comics" and not the main label "Dc rebirth" is strange if they are supposed to be in the present timeline of the DC comics.

----------


## byrd156

> Isn't that Jason's New 52 Robin costume? 
> 
> I can't wait to see Damian's reaction .


Nah, Jason didn't have any black on his. Plus his cape wasn't styled.

----------


## king81992

> If they are going with him as Robin for just some anguish between him and Damian then it's a very idiotic idea but if it's a part of bigger plan Okay. However, being in the main continuity doesn't mean anything when it comes to Bendis and launching them under a new line "wonder comics" and not the main label "Dc rebirth" is strange if they are supposed to be in the present timeline of the DC comics.


Maybe the present timeline of DC is getting majorly altered soon? Doomsday Clock seems to be hinting at that and I wouldn't be surprised if the Heroes in Crisis event leads to time shenanigans in the future.

----------


## reni344

Honestly, I hope they just call him Robin and everyone is cool with it and we just move on I am so sick unnecessary drama in the Batfamily.

----------


## Mosameen

> Maybe the present timeline of DC is getting majorly altered soon? Doomsday Clock seems to be hinting at that and I wouldn't be surprised if the Heroes in Crisis event leads to time shenanigans in the future.


Maybe but it still begs the question why different label?



> Honestly, I hope they just call him Robin and everyone is cool with it and we just move on I am so sick unnecessary drama in the Batfamily.


I'm okay if him and Damian shares the Robin title. My main issue of Tim being Robin again is that now he'll never be anything but Robin.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Isn't that Jason's New 52 Robin costume? 
> 
> I can't wait to see Damian's reaction .


his violent stabby reaction

----------


## Korath

> I wonder how they will explain Tim going back to the Robin name. I guess they could deage him and wipe away all New 52 stories, but it feels a little odd that they are going to have him go by Robin again after spending so many years trying, and failing I guess, to find a place for him beyond the Robin identity.


It would be best to admit, in-universe, that Tim doesn't want to be anything else than Robin. He was designed for it and isn't able to evolve beyond that, because he was tailor-made to be a young sidekick of Batman. So better to acknowledge that and write great stories with him, with a R or two.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's good to confirm that Tim is Robin again. Although I wonder how he return to the name. 
> 
> Maybe there are so much retcons that he never stop to be Robin. 
> 
> 
> Another thing, it's just an idea (probably crazy), is there a possibility that Tim Drake in Young Justice is a different person from New 52 Tim Drake? I mean I remember that Teen Titans 0 mentioned that Tim Drake was his new name.


That's already been retconned by Rebirth Detective Comics. His real name is always Tim Drake and his backstory is A Lonely Place of Dying.

He was Red Robin at the end of Detective Comics though, but the story ends with him separating from the family, evaluating himself after his ambition almost lead him to a dark path. The decision to return to Robin might be his way of searching himself by going back to basic.

----------


## Miles To Go

Kind of sucks to see him without Stephanie after all they went through to get back together at the end of their stint on 'Tective, but I suspect Bendis will spin a story out of it since he hinted elements like "your loves and tragedies" will be in the book

----------


## Mataza

Ive said it before and ill say it again. Tim and Steph are great characters and they are even better together. But they need room to breathe.

----------


## millernumber1

> Kind of sucks to see him without Stephanie after all they went through to get back together at the end of their stint on 'Tective, but I suspect Bendis will spin a story out of it since he hinted elements like "your loves and tragedies" will be in the book


Agreed. I hope that it's not a cheap breakup. I'd really like to see Steph actually mean something to Tim, so that when she's not around for whatever reason, she matters in a similar way to how Tim mattered to her during his "death".




> Ive said it before and ill say it again. Tim and Steph are great characters and they are even better together. But they need room to breathe.


I'd be okay with them splitting up so they have room to breathe...if they actually gave Steph a book to breathe in.

----------


## RedBird

@gbj_Bellgreen

----------


## RedBird

@L_Strikes_art
_'Welcome Back!!'_

----------


## RedBird

@L_Strikes_art

----------


## RedBird

@adandan_1



I'm finding a new influx of YJ art on my twitter recently  :Smile:

----------


## Mataza

> I'd be okay with them splitting up so they have room to breathe...if they actually gave Steph a book to breathe in.


Shell probably get in YJ eventually, shed be a nice addition.

----------


## The Whovian

> Young Justice art by Patrick Gleason:


Whoa! That is AWESOME!!!!!

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Even if she isnt' a team member I hope she has appearances in YJ. 

You know, make her a normal girlfriend. Have them go on dates so he has someone to talk to that isn't on the team. Let Kon give awful relationship advice and let Tim follow it because he's that hopeless.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Even if she isnt' a team member I hope she has appearances in YJ. 
> 
> You know, make her a normal girlfriend. Have them go on dates so he has someone to talk to that isn't on the team. *Let Kon give awful relationship advice and let Tim follow it because he's that hopeless.*


 :Big Grin:

----------


## Jadeb

> Sweet!
> The art looks wonderfully energetic


The best part of that YJ art is the characters look so _happy_. 

I'm fine with Tim returning to plain ol' Robin. I understand why some fans want him to move beyond that mantle, but I'd rather DC hang back until a creator has a good idea for how to use him. Right now, he's in no man's land, and that's a waste of the character. Better he's in YJ as Robin than stuck on a shelf somewhere.

Besides, having multiple Robins makes perfect sense in universe. Seems like a flock of sidekicks would be more effective than just one kid. Sort of like Batman's Baker Street Irregulars.

----------


## Dataweaver

Yeah; you might even call it something like “We Are…”

----------


## RedBird

lovethedanielhd

----------


## Mataza

Man, i just cant wait to get my hands on that book.

----------


## OBrianTallent

And still nothing about Cassie. Sigh...
I was hoping Bendis would bring Steph along with Tim tho.

----------


## Mataza

> And still nothing about Cassie. Sigh...


Cassie is also coming, she just wasnt part of the founding members.




> I was hoping Bendis would bring Steph along with Tim tho.


He probably will, seems like the type of character he enjoys writing.

----------


## josai21

I expect Cassie and Steph to be added soon.

I think the initial arc is gonna be a "getting the band back together" type story focused on the bros.

----------


## Aahz

I'm more wondering if they will bring back characters like Arrowette and Empress who never really had any big appearances out side of Young Justice.

----------


## RedBird

ooooosushi

----------


## KrustyKid

> ooooosushi


Love that one

----------


## scary harpy

> ooooosushi


The guys look great. I am less than thrilled with Cassie's new look.

----------


## Dataweaver

I can live with it. It's better than her in a wig (as per her pre-Sins of Youth days) or her in a swimsuit (as per her in every Teen Titans incarnation she's been a part of).

----------


## scary harpy

> I can live with it. It's better than her in a wig (as per her pre-Sins of Youth days) or her in a swimsuit (as per her in every Teen Titans incarnation she's been a part of).


I really liked her t-shirt, jeans and boots look. 

76c3d573568ffe1fc25ba47afc71b074.jpg

----------


## byrd156

Was looking through some comic panels and had a laugh with this.

----------


## KrustyKid

YJ boys;

tumblr_pgrdjmo4wN1tmzvqbo1_1280.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> Was looking through some comic panels and had a laugh with this.


Is this Steve Skroce artwork?

----------


## byrd156

> Is this Steve Skroce artwork?


Unsure but it is gorgeous.

----------


## oasis1313

> Unsure but it is gorgeous.


I'm pretty sure it's Skroce.

----------


## Frontier

I love the new influx of Young Justice fanart  :Embarrassment: .



> The guys look great. I am less than thrilled with Cassie's new look.


The only thing that throws me off is the skirt. 

I have nothing against Superheroes in skirts (hello Supergirl), but I don't think it works with Cassie's black top and red pants look.

----------


## nj06

> I really liked her t-shirt, jeans and boots look. 
> 
> Attachment 72229


I liked this look as well. I also hope she still has her lightning lasso.

----------


## RedBird

@tpoc0ik833jk



@chikone01758



@mcmramcm

----------


## Jackalope89

Poor Tim.

----------


## KrustyKid

Another one for the YJ crew;

tumblr_pg8hiwqL2G1u79he3o1_1280.jpg

----------


## babybats

If Tim were to move on to a non-Robin superhero identity (a la Nightwing), what should it be?  Should his color scheme change?  Would he still have a bird theme?  Would it be an armored bodysuit, or a more youthful design like Barbara's current costume?  His alt future self's Savior persona is an option, but I personally don't like the design.

----------


## king81992

> If Tim were to move on to a non-Robin superhero identity (a la Nightwing), what should it be?  Should his color scheme change?  Would he still have a bird theme?  Would it be an armored bodysuit, or a more youthful design like Barbara's current costume?  His alt future self's Savior persona is an option, but I personally don't like the design.


Tim should take on the Flamebird mantle.No one has used it in years.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> If Tim were to move on to a non-Robin superhero identity (a la Nightwing), what should it be?  Should his color scheme change?  Would he still have a bird theme?  Would it be an armored bodysuit, or a more youthful design like Barbara's current costume?  His alt future self's Savior persona is an option, but I personally don't like the design.


Red X would be my choice.

----------


## Pohzee

> Red X would be my choice.


So Tim can go from one mantle that started with Dick to another mantle that started with Dick to another mantle that started with Dick?

If Tim is going to branch out and stand on his own. He needs to do so his own way.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> So Tim can go from one mantle that started with Dick to another mantle that started with Dick to another mantle that started with Dick?
> 
> If Tim is going to branch out and stand on his own. He needs to do so his own way.


Has Red X even existed in the DCU?   I skipped out before Flashpoint and didn't come back until after Rebith had already started.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Has Red X even existed in the DCU?   I skipped out before Flashpoint and didn't come back until after Rebith had already started.


I think that was strictly the animated Teen Titans series. 

Oddly enough, it slightly predated Jason Todd's return (as Red Hood). And the two seeming to be near the same age (more so than Tim and Dick) and antagonizing Robin, even when working with him, is why many believe him to be Jason Todd. Even Beast Boy.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Is this Steve Skroce artwork?


It's Chris Batista

----------


## scary harpy

> Tim should take on the Flamebird mantle.No one has used it in years.


I like that idea. If Tim becomes Flamebird, then his main color should be yellow.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's Chris Batista


Whoa--it looks like Skroce.  Who's imitating who?

----------


## Konja7

This is a interview of Bendis, he speaks about Young Justice in part of this interview:

https://www.thecomiclounge.com/singl...onquer-the-DCU

I'm somewhat worried that Bendis doesn't seem pretty interested on Tim.

Also, how is that "Tim's got a lot of face time lately, in comics"?

----------


## Mataza

Compared to the others he has.

Well see how it goes, but the dude seems to have a lot of energy and is fond of these characters.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Digifiend

Marvel vs DC... and of course, they ended up Amalgamated as Sparrow.

I wonder what he'd think of Jubilee nowadays?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Marvel vs DC... and of course, they ended up Amalgamated as Sparrow.
> 
> I wonder what he'd think of Jubilee nowadays?


Good question. Well, at least she is not a vampire anymore, so I guess that's progress?

----------


## Rac7d*

How much are they deaging Tim for young justice
How long until he and damian have to fight again for the title Bendis is a trip

----------


## king81992

> How much are they deaging Tim for young justice
> How long until he and damian have to fight again for the title Bendis is a trip


Is Tim really getting deaged or is that just the art style?

I feel like the best thing for Bendis to do is ignore all of the extra stuff that Johns and the New 52 added to the YJ cast.

----------


## Konja7

> How much are they deaging Tim for young justice


Well, Tim's 16 in Detective Comics. So, they may mantain that age. 

I mean if they continue deaging Tim, he will reach Damian's age (13).

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well, Tim's 16 in Detective Comics. So, they may mantain that age. 
> 
> I mean if they continue deaging Tim, he will reach Damian's age (13).


oh is still 16 all this time. is he jsut getting shorter??? and reverting to a more childish hairstlye whats it gonna be zuc bart and connor seem younger then we last sw them as well

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

> Whoa--it looks like Skroce.  Who's imitating who?


They both broke in in '93 actually.   I always enjoyed Batista's work at DC.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 


This was my first Tim story. I knew nothing about him back then. I thought he was Dick at first because he's the spitting image of BTAS Dick which was based on Tim. I already knew Jubilee from the 90s cartoon. Even then, I fully expect Tim to win because I know Robin in general has martial arts skill, stealth and gadgets while Jubilee is a normal teenager with sparks.

----------


## pandesal

My Tim Drake blank cover commission by Heubert Khan Michael.

----------


## KrustyKid

> My Tim Drake blank cover commission by Heubert Khan Michael.


Love that!!

----------


## Sardorim

Tim always seemed to have a thing for girls like Jubilee, Cassandra, Lynx, and the such.

Was her name Lynx?

----------


## CPSparkles

Wayne's Halloween
Monkey Boi is scared/scarred of Dick(Pennywise), Tim(Myers), Jason(Jason), Damian(Chucky)







https://twitter.com/OtterTheAuthor

----------


## CPSparkles

Tim the Water Bender

----------


## KrustyKid

> Wayne's Halloween
> Monkey Boi is scared/scarred of Dick(Pennywise), Tim(Myers), Jason(Jason), Damian(Chucky)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/OtterTheAuthor


Lol, that is hilarious. Jason dressed as Jason, awesome

----------


## Konja7

I found information that it isn't about Tim, but it's related with him at some level:

The DCU app seems to have Superboy encyclopedia:

*--When the 5th Dimensional Imp Mister Mxyzptlk staged a prolonged physical and emotional attack on Superman, the battle resulted in Superman's timeline changing, and in this new reality, the post-FLASHPOINT version of Superboy and all of his adventures never existed. Whether the original Cadmus version of Superboy will reappear remains to be seen.--*

It seens New 52 Superboy and his adventures don't exist anymore, which means Tim Drake adventures in New 52 Teen Titans comics doesn't exist either.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I found information that it isn't about Tim, but it's related with him at some level:
> 
> The DCU app seems to have Superboy encyclopedia:
> 
> *--When the 5th Dimensional Imp Mister Mxyzptlk staged a prolonged physical and emotional attack on Superman, the battle resulted in Superman's timeline changing, and in this new reality, the post-FLASHPOINT version of Superboy and all of his adventures never existed. Whether the original Cadmus version of Superboy will reappear remains to be seen.--*
> 
> It seens New 52 Superboy and his adventures don't exist anymore, which means Tim Drake adventures in New 52 Teen Titans comics doesn't exist either.


Would it kill them to include this information in the books...

----------


## Konja7

> Would it kill them to include this information in the books...


I guess we will see some hints on Young Justice 1.

As Lobdell Teen Titans doesn't happen, Tim shouldn't know Cassandra. Also, this would be the first time that Tim see a clone of Superman.

----------


## godisawesome

> I found information that it isn't about Tim, but it's related with him at some level:
> 
> The DCU app seems to have Superboy encyclopedia:
> 
> *--When the 5th Dimensional Imp Mister Mxyzptlk staged a prolonged physical and emotional attack on Superman, the battle resulted in Superman's timeline changing, and in this new reality, the post-FLASHPOINT version of Superboy and all of his adventures never existed. Whether the original Cadmus version of Superboy will reappear remains to be seen.--*
> 
> It seens New 52 Superboy and his adventures don't exist anymore, which means Tim Drake adventures in New 52 Teen Titans comics doesn't exist either.


It might also mean that Tim will remember the Cadmus version of Superboy, which might bleed over into the other characters as well.

----------


## Konja7

> It might also mean that Tim will remember the Cadmus version of Superboy, which might bleed over into the other characters as well.


Well, that depends how Bendis handle the issue of Superboy. 

So far, the characters (except Iris West) don't remember Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

Some characters like Titans remembered some "missing years" when they saw Wally West. These "missing years" are somewhat similar to Pre-Flashpoint timeline, but no equal. For example: Dick Robin use pants.

If YJ4 have an story in the "missing years", Tim and the others may remember these when they see Bart. However, we can't be sure they have an story in the "missing years". 


That said, it's pretty likely that YJ4 have an story on the "missing years", since Bart knows Conner (like Wally, Bart has been deaged and he must be forgetting his memories of Pre-Flashpoiny timeline).

----------


## KrustyKid

Old school YJ;

young_justice_by_msciuto-d5w3kz1.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> It might also mean that Tim will remember the Cadmus version of Superboy, which might bleed over into the other characters as well.


I'm not even gonna begin on who remember what because I don't know if the retcon means they're erased completely or just forgotten, buried beneath layers of continuity, but the memory linger in the back of their mind until something trigger it to come back one after another like a Chain of Memories.

----------


## Digifiend

> Old school YJ;
> 
> young_justice_by_msciuto-d5w3kz1.jpg


Wouldn't be bad art if not for a few minor mistakes:
Robin's R has an inverted colour scheme, should be a yellow R in a black circle.
Cassie's shirt should have a G on it. WG for Wonder Girl.
Cassie didn't have a lasso until she joined the Teen Titans.

----------


## KrustyKid

YJ3 action;

tumblr_pg8bdraHK21qllu80o1_1280.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

Robin in action;

----------


## Mataza

Can anyone tell me where this is from?

----------


## scary harpy

> Can anyone tell me where this is from?


My guess is from a fight with Damian.

----------


## phantom1592

> Can anyone tell me where this is from?


No, not in that costume. He had the all red one vs. Damian. It looks like Jim Lee, so I'm thinking it's from the first Hush when Tim found Catwoman in the Batcave and Batman had to break it up.

----------


## byrd156

> Can anyone tell me where this is from?


Pretty sure it's from Hush.

----------


## KrustyKid

Robins and the crew;

----------


## Restingvoice

> Robins and the crew;


I don't want to ruin it, but looking at the pose and expressions, I don't think those kids on the bottom are crews.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...07286197_n.jpg

gleason's team cover

----------


## Mataza

Thats a perfect cover, their personalities just jump at you. You can tell what they are about at a glance, it also seems to encapsulate the tone of the book perfectly from what we were told.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't want to ruin it, but looking at the pose and expressions, I don't think those kids on the bottom are crews.


They're just there for the milk and cookies, lol

----------


## KrustyKid

> https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...07286197_n.jpg
> 
> gleason's team cover


Love that cover

----------


## RedBird

sixspence
_IT/YJ crossover_

----------


## KrustyKid

> sixspence
> _IT/YJ crossover_


Joker as IT... classic

----------


## Darkcrusade25

45397712_203455077202210_157297592661296444_n.jpg

Tim Drake looking nice back as Robin.

----------


## josai21

So...I'd have loved for them to let Tim Drake continue from the Red Robin series...

But returning him to Robin as a teen is better than the BS we've gottten since the N52. I'll be buying.

----------


## Restingvoice

That variant reminds me... do you prefer Tim to be drawn smol, big, or Marcus To? The smolest he's drawn is probably by Dustin Nguyen. The biggest and most muscular... umm... Eddy Barrows?

----------


## Konja7

> That variant reminds me... do you prefer Tim to be drawn smol, big, or Marcus To? The smolest he's drawn is probably by Dustin Nguyen. The biggest and most muscular... umm... Eddy Barrows?


Marcus To

Tim looks pretty good drawn by Marcus To

----------


## failo.legendkiller

I'm very curious to know how Bendis will handle Tim, from these first images he seem to have same age of Damian or so.
My worry is that this YJ title will be sort of disconnected from the main DCU and no one of the problems of Tim post Flashpoint will be resolved, rather will be added more confusion.

----------


## The Whovian

> https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram...07286197_n.jpg
> 
> gleason's team cover


Hey everyone, I've been out of the loop the last 6-7 months. I've been so busy I haven't even had a chance to read any comics or keep up with anything. I assume this cover is from a new Titans series? When does it come out?

----------


## uchihafanboy

> Hey everyone, I've been out of the loop the last 6-7 months. I've been so busy I haven't even had a chance to read any comics or keep up with anything. I assume this cover is from a new Titans series? When does it come out?


No, Young Justice. Tim and his friends are Olympians from Mount Justice

----------


## The Whovian

> No, Young Justice. Tim and his friends are Olympians from Mount Justice


Wait, what? They're Olympians? What does that mean? And when does it come out?

----------


## KrustyKid

> Wait, what? They're Olympians? What does that mean? And when does it come out?


I'm pretty sure they were joking about the Olympians thing, lol. Starts January some time

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Wonder_Comics_insert-page-004.jpg

Looks like Tim hasn't been deaged at all

----------


## The Whovian

> I'm pretty sure they were joking about the Olympians thing, lol. Starts January some time


Lol, okay. Thanks

----------


## The Whovian

> Wonder_Comics_insert-page-004.jpg
> 
> Looks like Tim hasn't been deaged at all


And Gleason is doing the artwork? Sweet!!

----------


## uchihafanboy

> I'm pretty sure they were joking about the Olympians thing, lol. Starts January some time


I'm more than one person? Cool

----------


## Jackalope89

Just to kind of get some sort of consensus; what do you Tim fans think about him suddenly being Robin again?

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Just to kind of get some sort of consensus; what do you Tim fans think about him suddenly being Robin again?


It depends on how Bendis will handle the situation, I will tell you after some YJ issues.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Just to kind of get some sort of consensus; what do you Tim fans think about him suddenly being Robin again?


Next best thing to getting his own identity. Tim Drake as Robin was my first superhero and entry into comics. I think he worships the Robin role more than the others do so it makes sense for him to come back to it. I know Bendis teased him and Damian clashing over that.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm more than one person? Cool


I'm never one to assume someone's gender based on a screen name or profile pic, because of been wrong in the past before in that regard. I said 'they' instead of he or she, just to be on the safe side of things.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Wonder_Comics_insert-page-004.jpg
> 
> Looks like Tim hasn't been deaged at all


Tim's look varies a lot between artists

----------


## Badou

> Just to kind of get some sort of consensus; what do you Tim fans think about him suddenly being Robin again?


I think it is an acceptance that Tim is unable to move on from being Robin. So they are just moving him back to an identity that worked best for him. Not more complicated than that. They tried to make the Red Robin thing work and it just never did the way Nightwing or Red Hood did. 

How they will explain it in continuity is going to be super confusing, since Damian is Robin too, as well if they possibly deaging him, but I guess that will be addressed in the YJ book or it will all just get ignored because they just want Tim as Robin again and aren't concerned with the how or why.

----------


## metrico

> That variant reminds me... do you prefer Tim to be drawn smol, big, or Marcus To? The smolest he's drawn is probably by Dustin Nguyen. The biggest and most muscular... umm... Eddy Barrows?


I prefer him to be in between smol and Marcus To style. Rafael Albuquerque tends to draw a nice Tim, so does Patrick Gleason. I just picture him as a small (no taller than 5 ft 6ish) and rather slight guy whose athleticism was created through lots and lots of hard work unlike Dick  who was born into it (and a lesser extent Jason who is more brawny in a fisticuffs way) and it doesn't actually come natural. Same way I'd as a writer/concept driver have him specialize more in defensive/evasive martial arts.

----------


## James Hunter

> Just to kind of get some sort of consensus; what do you Tim fans think about him suddenly being Robin again?


Personally, I'm okay with it, the identity of RED Robin as a name didn't work for Tim, going back to Robin (at least until another more suitable codename comes along) makes sense.  Its not like in-universe many people actualy CALLED Tim *RED* Robin anyway.

I'm more interested to see how Bendis handles Tim whatever name he's given (I'm actually finding Bendis' time at DC fascinating, I wasn't enamoured with all his Marvel work,far from it, but he's been pleasantly surprisingly impressive at DC so far IMHO)

----------


## Restingvoice

I have a sudden craving for animated Marcus To Tim Drake voiced by Johnny Yong Bosch

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## Darkcrusade25

45729332_123647181986611_8057710167065445183_n.jpg

Hot off Bendis' instagram

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## KrustyKid

> 45729332_123647181986611_8057710167065445183_n.jpg
> 
> Hot off Bendis' instagram


Love that one

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## failo.legendkiller

> Love that one


me too, were it not for the fact that Tim is flying. I always hated him doing it.

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## DragonsChi

> me too, were it not for the fact that Tim is flying. I always hated him doing it.


His he flying though? Or is he "Falling with Style" lol

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## gohei_

I am slowly working my way through the Robin series, just recently passed issue 50 or so and I've noticed that it (along with a lot of other Bat titles) are part of a bunch of different events though the years, so I did some checking up on them and seeing what it was all about.
At the start I completely skipped the Knightfall story (but I will most likely pick it up now since it's on sale and go back and read it). I also did not read the Contagion or Legacy event because it did not seem to have the best reviews.
So at the moment I've just finished reading Cataclysm and are working my way up to No Mans Land. After that I'll go back to reading the single issues until I stumble upon another multi-title event.

While reading these events I'm noticing that mostly the Robin issues go by a lot easier (meaning, they are just more fun to read) and there are some really bad artwork in some of the Batman issues in Cataclysm.

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## failo.legendkiller

> I am slowly working my way through the Robin series, just recently passed issue 50 or so and I've noticed that it (along with a lot of other Bat titles) are part of a bunch of different events though the years, so I did some checking up on them and seeing what it was all about.
> At the start I completely skipped the Knightfall story (but I will most likely pick it up now since it's on sale and go back and read it). I also did not read the Contagion or Legacy event because it did not seem to have the best reviews.
> So at the moment I've just finished reading Cataclysm and are working my way up to No Mans Land. After that I'll go back to reading the single issues until I stumble upon another multi-title event.
> 
> While reading these events I'm noticing that mostly the Robin issues go by a lot easier (meaning, they are just more fun to read) and there are some really bad artwork in some of the Batman issues in Cataclysm.


I envy you, i have great memories of that times. All Chuck Dixon stuff was gorgeous, I'm missing it badly.

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## nj06

> 45729332_123647181986611_8057710167065445183_n.jpg
> 
> Hot off Bendis' instagram


Nice pic. Although I  will say Wonder Girl's shirt reminds me of Carol Danvers' current look. Also not sure about how I feel about Jonah Hex's descendant. Tim looks good tho.

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## TheCape

> 45729332_123647181986611_8057710167065445183_n.jpg
> 
> Hot off Bendis' instagram


Looks cool, especially Bart.

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## SixSpeedSamurai

Can't ait.   Bart especually looks like the return to fun loving Bart of old.

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## phantom1592

> . Also not sure about how I feel about Jonah Hex's descendant.


yeah, I don't understand the concept. The idea of Jonah being an ex-civil war soldier/gunslinger who's face was burned and he's a bounty hunter has a number of interesting hooks and visual cues to make him interesting.   Having someone say her great great grandfather was a scarred bounty hunter from the civil war... isn't nearly as interesting.   It's not like he had powers that she inherited or anything... so I'm gonna need to hear a lot more before she interests me at all.

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## Darkcrusade25

Straight from the March 2018 Solicit

YOUNG JUSTICE #3
written by BRIAN MICHAEL BENDIS
art by PATRICK GLEASON and VIKTOR BOGDANOVIC
cover by PATRICK GLEASON
variant cover by EVAN “DOC” SHANER
Young Justice is back, baby! Bendis and Gleason reunite all your favorites in one place!* Robin (Tim Drake—the best Robin)* and Amethyst (best Princess of Gemworld!) team with Wonder Girl, Jinny Hex and the new Teen Lantern (not even close to the best Green Lantern) to take back the mysterious Gemworld from the evil forces of dark Opal. Meanwhile, the reunited Impulse and Superboy have a lot of explaining to do. Also in this issue, find out where Connor Kent has been all this time. This is a big issue for Superboy fans!
ON SALE 03.06.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

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## Restingvoice

> yeah, I don't understand the concept. The idea of Jonah being an ex-civil war soldier/gunslinger who's face was burned and he's a bounty hunter has a number of interesting hooks and visual cues to make him interesting.   Having someone say her great great grandfather was a scarred bounty hunter from the civil war... isn't nearly as interesting.   It's not like he had powers that she inherited or anything... so I'm gonna need to hear a lot more before she interests me at all.


I was interested because I wanted to know what I expected to be a gun-toting teenager will be doing in the current climate, but that looks like a space gun, so they're not going there.

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## josai21

This looks so off the wall and crazy.

i love it.

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## failo.legendkiller

I'm really worried cause there will be 2 Robin and 2 Superboy. This situation is dangerous four our beloved character.
If Young Justice will not sell enough or when Bendis will leave interest into the project DC will have to face the problem, and I'm not feeling good for Tim and Kon.

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## king81992

> I'm really worried cause there will be 2 Robin and 2 Superboy. This situation is dangerous four our beloved character.
> If Young Justice will not sell enough or when Bendis will leave interest into the project DC will have to face the problem, and I'm not feeling good for Tim and Kon.


They would probably get moved to the Titans after Abnett is replaced(which hopefully will be soon). For now, all we can do is hope that YJ sells well.

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## scary harpy

> I'm really worried cause there will be 2 Robin and 2 Superboy. This situation is dangerous four our beloved character.
> If Young Justice will not sell enough or when Bendis will leave interest into the project DC will have to face the problem, and I'm not feeling good for Tim and Kon.


I think there will only be 1 Superboy (John Kent) and 1 Kon-El.

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## gohei_

> I envy you, i have great memories of that times. All Chuck Dixon stuff was gorgeous, I'm missing it badly.


Yes. It's really good stuff.

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## KrustyKid

Yj3;

db5iok0-cdd13f48-a0ca-4b74-b53d-01624102b64f.jpg

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## Dataweaver

> They would probably get moved to the Titans after Abnett is replaced(which hopefully will be soon). For now, all we can do is hope that YJ sells well.


Personally, I view moving them to the Titans to be a last-resort that I'd find acceptable only if the alternative is cancellation. I _prefer_ Tim, Kon, Bart, and Cassie in YJ over putting them back under the Titans umbrella; they _founded_ Young Justice; it's rightfully _theirs_, and having them return to it feels to me like coming home.

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## RedBird

An oldie, but relevant  :Smile:

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