# Comics  > Batman >  Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

## Vworp Vworp

Man, and we were so close to 300 pages!  Better get busy then  :Wink: 





http://artgerm.deviantart.com/

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## RohanriderX

I just asked if this was ok to post we will just have to use alternate numbering haha page 1/295

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## K. Jones

Stephanie Brown is the greatest character in all of comics fiction.

Okay, bombast aside, I'm glad this is one of the first threads to be revived. Go get 'em, waffle-lovers.

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## beetlebum

[Looks around]

What the Heck just happened?

Anyways ... yay Stephanie!

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## beetlebum



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## teej

This seems somewhat appropriate; this being the The New 52! CBR forums and all. Awesome thread name by the way.

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## Vworp Vworp

Now that I think about it, a new start for this thread is perhaps kind of appropriate considering current events in the DCnU.  :Big Grin: 

New beginnings and all that....

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## beetlebum



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## michael-schofield

> 



Damn, that's a gorgeous picture- what's it from??

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## Vanguard-01

Words cannot express how much I love Steph. And it all came very suddenly. I didn't even really know she existed until her Batgirl run got started. I'd heard about her, but I'd never really given her much attention. 

Then I decided to pick up her Batgirl run, and I was instantaneously in love. I miss that book so much.

But! No need to dwell in the past! She's back now, she's AT LEAST as awesome and lovable as ever, and all is right with the world! 

Thank you, DC for bringing HER back exactly as we wanted at least.

Also? MMMMMM. Waffles. :Big Grin:

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## Blight

> Man, and we were so close to 300 pages!  Better get busy then


Just means we have to aim for 300 here. Though given Steph is in Batman Eternal we'll have plenty of ammo to talk about the character.

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## kaloy

I dunno if its been pointed out but, has anyone else noticed the similarities between Stephanie's Batgirl suit and Bruce's Zero Year one?

BMzeroyear.jpg

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## sunofdarkchild

Would people mind if I transplant those posts I had that were fics about Steph from the old thread?  So they don't disappear?  It would help with getting to 300 pages a little quicker.

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## BumbleBecc

So So happy to have Steph back, and i'm not unhappy with how it is happening either. Her origin remains unmolested, and she's coming across well, smart and resourceful. I'm optimistic

Wonder if i can finally attach pictures? Started based on the Artgerm Huntress pic.

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## Vworp Vworp

> So So happy to have Steph back, and i'm not unhappy with how it is happening either. Her origin remains unmolested, and she's coming across well, smart and resourceful. I'm optimistic.


Yeah. Whilst on a personal level, I'd have liked to see her back at the same skill level she had been when Flashpoint hit, building her up from scratch in a weekly book does make a lot of sense.  Especially if the character is going to have a long term future in the new 52.

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## nepenthes

> New beginnings and all that....



Ha, yep I actually left a VERY subtle hint of things to come on the old board last night 




> What a great panel. In darkness...a new era begins!..


 :Cool:

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## Punisher007

Steph's mother in Eternal #4, WOW!  Just wow.

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## Scott Taylor

Thanks for making me hungry for waffles!

Great to see Steph Brown back again in Batman Eternal. The Once and Future Batgirl rides again!

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## OBrianTallent

Steph had an interesting and strong back story before, but I have to say they are really building her a great story here.  I'm glad this book is weekly so we dont have to wait a month for each issue and her story to unfold.

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## Tim Drake

So happy Steph is back. Eternal is a must for me just for that reason alone.

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## Xarcon

So how is Stephanie faring in _Eternal_?  Is she the same person we all know and love, or have they botched her character?  From what I gather, her origin seems to be (at least mostly) intact, right?  If she's being treated right, then I'll start getting the series to support her.  I just don't want a repeat of the Helena Bertinelli/Wayne fiasco, where I thought I was supporting a character I loved by buying her miniseries, only to find out at the end that it was all basically a lie (yes, I'm still bitter about that).

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## Vworp Vworp

> So how is Stephanie faring in _Eternal_?  Is she the same person we all know and love, or have they botched her character?  From what I gather, her origin seems to be (at least mostly) intact, right?  If she's being treated right, then I'll start getting the series to support her.  I just don't want a repeat of the Helena Bertinelli/Wayne fiasco, where I thought I was supporting a character I loved by buying her miniseries, only to find out at the end that it was all basically a lie (yes, I'm still bitter about that).


We haven't really seen a huge amount of her so far.  And we're starting from scratch, so she's not the funny, kick-ass, awesomesauce that she became in BQM's Batgirl.  But so far, so... OK.  

And at least she's not 12 years old, right?

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## dahllaz

I waited to get any Eternal issues until #3 came out. Know it probably didn't make any sort of difference, but wanted to give whatever kind of push I could to Steph coming back. 

Became a big fan of hers last year. I was aware of Spoiler from Robin, though buying his series was hit and miss for me, and Cass' Batgirl series back in the day. But it wasn't until I read a fanfic of Steph going to the Marvel verse because of the new52 stuff that I came to love her. 
It was called Aegis and the set up is that Loki brings her back after Black Mask killed her in exchange for her agreeing to help him in the future, for whatever reason he asks for. Fast forward a few years, and people start forgetting about her as the new52 is treated as a multiverse thing. Loki brings her over...somehow (can't remember), and she ends up agreeing to be a protector for kidLoki.
Anyway, it was a well written and interesting fic, and I became really intruiged with Stephanie as a character. Then bought the first few issues of her Batgirl series and that was all she wrote. Now I'm a fan for life.

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## johnsmith

> So So happy to have Steph back, and i'm not unhappy with how it is happening either. Her origin remains unmolested....


Her mother Crystal Brown, on the other hand...
I just hope there's more to what's going on with her than has been shown so far.
Still, I'm happy that Steph is back!

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## beetlebum

> Damn, that's a gorgeous picture- what's it from??


_Batman Eternal #4_

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## Vworp Vworp

http://artgerm.deviantart.com/



 :Big Grin:

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## Vanguard-01

> 


God, I hope DC let's Kara and Steph become friends again somewhere down the road! Their friendship was adorable and so much fun. Their teamup issues in Bryan Q. Miller's run were some of the most fun I've ever had reading a comic in my life. THIS moment, in particular.

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## BumbleBecc

Double post, so sorry

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## BumbleBecc

> God, I hope DC let's Kara and Steph become friends again somewhere down the road! Their friendship was adorable and so much fun. Their teamup issues in Bryan Q. Miller's run were some of the most fun I've ever had reading a comic in my life. THIS moment, in particular.


I loved that issue, and that page was one of my favourite ever.
Bryan Q Miller did such an amazing job.  So sad to  lose such a wonderful title.
Not so keen on the previous pic, Artgerm let us down on that one. Much of his other work is beautiful though.

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## Kid A

> Her mother Crystal Brown, on the other hand...
> I just hope there's more to what's going on with her than has been shown so far.
> Still, I'm happy that Steph is back!


Yeah on one hand what they seem to be doing with her mom is lame.  On the other hand, we're kind of lucky compared to how Wally is turning out...

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## Punisher007

It's a little too early to judge that just yet.  There could be a swerve coming, Eternal is over 50 issues long after all.  Scratch that, it's WAY too early to make judgments.

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## Punisher007

> http://artgerm.deviantart.com/


That page with Supergirl is one of my favorites, it's just hilarious.  Not a big fan of the deviantart image there.  It makes me uncomfortable and I REALLY don't see Steph doing something like that.

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## Vanguard-01

> It's a little too early to judge that just yet.  There could be a swerve coming, Eternal is over 50 issues long after all.  Scratch that, it's WAY too early to make judgments.


Agreed.

We already have at least some evidence that Steph's dad didn't want her to find out about him. When he saw her standing there, staring at him in his costume, he clearly looked distraught. Now, maybe that was playacting......or maybe it was playacting when he suddenly pretended to be okay with shooting Steph in the head. He had TIME to compose himself for the murder attempt. His response to Steph appearing out of nowhere was probably the more genuine response. 

Also? If Arthur was okay with killing Steph, why did he wait until she was conscious to shoot her? Any one of those villains could've killed her while she was unconscious. And yet Arthur insisted that Steph be awake for what was coming. There are only two possible reasons for that: 1.) Arthur really IS a psychopath and he actually WANTED his daughter to look him in the eye before he murdered her, or 2) He wanted her to have a CHANCE at being able to escape from this situation. 

Steph's mom could be in the same boat. Maybe she and Arthur aren't saints, but so far we have no conclusive proof that either one of them really wants any harm to come to Steph, and we've got at least SOME evidence to support the idea that neither of them ever wanted Steph to learn about them and were (and possibly still are) trying to protect her.

Punisher007 is right. It's much too soon to tell. But as far as I'm concerned, the evidence is leaning more in the direction that Arthur loves Steph and doesn't want to see her get hurt. Her mom may very well be the same story.

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## Vanguard-01

> That page with Supergirl is one of my favorites, it's just hilarious.  Not a big fan of the deviantart image there.  It makes me uncomfortable and I REALLY don't see Steph doing something like that.


Why not? We don't know WHY she's teasingly unzipping her costume. Maybe she's getting ready for some fun with her boyfriend or something. She WAS nineteen by the time she put on that costume, I remind you. There's nothing uncomfortable about a nineteen-year-old girl being sexual, unless we can clearly see she's being sexual toward the Penguin or something.

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## Kid A

> It's a little too early to judge that just yet.  There could be a swerve coming, Eternal is over 50 issues long after all.  Scratch that, it's WAY too early to make judgments.


Yeah that's why I said seem.

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## Vworp Vworp

> Also? If Arthur was okay with killing Steph, why did he wait until she was conscious to shoot her?


Because that's what bad guys always do and have always done in, in the history of everything ever.  

Come on, if he was 'giving her chance', he was taking a pretty huge punt that she'd find a way to escape.  What if she hadn't spotted the gas canisters? "Ok Stephanie.  I'm going to shoot you now.  Right now.  Absolutely right at this moment.  Riiiiiiight.... now.  This instant.  There's no escape for you... Even if you hit the_ gas!_  I'm not just _gas_sing, this is it!!  I'm ready to _smoke_ you!!  Oh, for crying out loud Steph', use one of these gas canisters and leg it!!!"

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## BumbleBecc

> Why not? We don't know WHY she's teasingly unzipping her costume. Maybe she's getting ready for some fun with her boyfriend or something. She WAS nineteen by the time she put on that costume, I remind you. There's nothing uncomfortable about a nineteen-year-old girl being sexual, unless we can clearly see she's being sexual toward the Penguin or something.


1. Steph is one of the few female characters in comics who is NOT built like that
2. The lower picture makes it clear it is not in her nature to neglect underwear.
3. Its Cheesecake Pin Up art.  I don't like it. People are entitled to not like it. Some of his other work, including some of the Steph Batgirl covers is wonderful though.

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## Vworp Vworp

> Why not? We don't know WHY she's teasingly unzipping her costume. Maybe she's getting ready for some fun with her boyfriend or something. She WAS nineteen by the time she put on that costume, I remind you. There's nothing uncomfortable about a nineteen-year-old girl being sexual, unless we can clearly see she's being sexual toward the Penguin or something.


Yep.  Sure, it's not really a pose anyone would immediately associate with Stephanie; indeed, the main reason I posted it is cos it's such an obvious juxtaposition to the page from Batgirl #14.  But I don't think it's anything to feel especially uncomfortable about. 

Still, it's all down personal perspective and all that.  How Punisher feels is perfectly legitimate for precisely that reason.  Nobody can be wrong about their own opinion.

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## Punisher007

BTW, when I said that it's "too early to judge," I was referring more to Steph's mother than to Cluemaster.  There could be more going on with her.  Cluemaster's always been a crappy parent at best.

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## Sunbird

I wonder how long it will take this thread to reach 300 pages? 

Anyway, yay Steph in Eternal!

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## BumbleBecc

> I wonder how long it will take this thread to reach 300 pages? 
> 
> Anyway, yay Steph in Eternal!


Slower, given that i hope this one won't be fuelled by her mistreatment  :Smile:

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## teej

> Slower, given that i hope this one won't be fuelled by her mistreatment


But this time it will fueled by how great she's being treated!

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## BumbleBecc

> But this time it will fueled by how great she's being treated!


Ahhh Utopia  :Big Grin: .
I truly hope it's finally the case.

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## Kid A

It's just too bad they can't have Brian Q Miller write her again.

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## BumbleBecc

That really is a pity.
I have to admit i really liked Jon Lewis' efforts too

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## sunofdarkchild

Ok. Going to start bringing over some of the fics I wrote for the original thread now, starting with my take on if the old Steph found out about Damian's death.




> Stephanie swallowed as she listened to Tim speak on the other side of the phone line.
> 
> "The-there's no chance it's fake? No way he's gone off to Africa or something?"
> 
> "Fraid not." Tim replied. "This is as real as it gets."
> 
> Her hand shaking, Steph put down the phone. She turned around and walked slowly out of the kitchen. Unfortunately, her mother was in the living room.
> 
> "What's wrong?" Crystal asked. "You look white as a ghost."
> ...

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## Chickfighter

When forums reboot... anyway for those who are interested here is a link to the dA Steph tribute folder where I put the stuff I wrote when DC rebooted. There are sixteen issues worth of scripts and cover art for each as well as a few odds and ends.

http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/gallery/35412958

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## Darkspellmaster

Just a question, does anyone think that Steph and Tim will at least meet one another? Or that they already know one another? That would be interesting having them already know one another as friends from school. Certainly make for an interesting moment when she become spoiler and he shows up as Red Robin.

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## Punisher007

Well, given how long Eternal is going to be, and that it's going to cover A LOT of Gotham and it's characters, it wouldn't surprise me if Steph and Tim bumped into each other at some point.  Especially since Batman #28 built her up as being really important to stopping this big disaster that's going on.

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## Darkspellmaster

Interesting. I need to get a hold of that book. *sighs* I thought I had it on my pull list, guess not.

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## Punisher007

> Interesting. I need to get a hold of that book. *sighs* I thought I had it on my pull list, guess not.


Here is the image in question, if you're interested:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-conte.../IMG_00491.jpg

She only physically appears on that one page.  However, Selina's comments tell you that she's going to be important.  Also, that new Spoiler costume looks fantastic.

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## Darkspellmaster

urk, can't see that image at all.  :Confused: 

Really now? I hope that they don't muddle this up. Again, looks like I'm going to have to pull this book.

managed to find it. Oh wow it does look awesome and I love the fact that they put some of her batgirl costume detail (the ribbing on the side) into it.

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## Vworp Vworp

http://sniperplushie.deviantart.com/

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## Blacksun

> http://sniperplushie.deviantart.com/


cosplayers are really quick

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## Darkspellmaster

Yes they are, we should be seeing new Spoiler cosplay at Sandiego and New Yorks Comic cons this year.

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## Punisher007

I was just about to say the same thing.  Man that was fast.  Not a bad attempt either.

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## Blight

Helps that Dustin Nguyen did two sketches as well of Steph in her New 52 costume with this being the best look at it in full mask:



I really hope he just says one day he's going to release a print of that or the "real" ending to #28.

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## Darkspellmaster

She's got a bo staff like the Monkey King's. That is really rather cool. I love the design of this, a nice call back to her original costume but also to the Batgirl one she was wearing. And I really like the ninja mask, though I wonder if a full mask cover would be more protection for her identity?

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## Vworp Vworp

> She's got a bo staff like the Monkey King's. That is really rather cool. I love the design of this, a nice call back to her original costume but also to the Batgirl one she was wearing. And I really like the ninja mask, though I wonder if a full mask cover would be more protection for her identity?


I'd rather there wasn't a mask at all.  But if she's gotta have one, the half-mask would be OK.  I don't want a faceless Steph though.

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## HunterX

tumblr_m5lofbyiDL1qbujox.jpg

As nightwing

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## dahllaz

I really like the half mask. It offers protection for her identity, but still lets us see her eyes. A full mask would be more realistic, but I can suspend disbelief enough that this doesn't bother me.

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## Punisher007

I suppose that Stephanie's mask is better than say Batman's.  Steph's mask at least covers up the most distinctive/recognizable portion of her face.  And if she keeps her hood up most of the time, then it's a pretty effective disguise.

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## Bluebow

> Yeah. Whilst on a personal level, I'd have liked to see her back at the same skill level she had been when Flashpoint hit, building her up from scratch in a weekly book does make a lot of sense.  Especially if the character is going to have a long term future in the new 52.


She might have to be built up from scratch, but that does not necessarily have to be a slow process. Look how quickly Harper Row's skills developed in only a short amount of on-page time. Also this time she finds out who Bruce Wayne is a lot sooner and no teen pregnancy.

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## Punisher007

Well, we know that she's already become Spoiler by the time of Batman #28 (which takes place somewhere in the 40's of Eternal).  So she's going to be suiting up relatively quickly.

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## Bluebow

> Well, we know that she's already become Spoiler by the time of Batman #28 (which takes place somewhere in the 40's of Eternal).  So she's going to be suiting up relatively quickly.


Yes we know that she has the suit, but especially as she is shown as a captive not what if any skills she might already have. As she did not know her father was a criminal she would not have acquired any of his criminal skills, but she could be a gymnast, a martial artist or even have better computer skills than Barbara Gordon currently has. Perhaps all we need is a Rocky style training montage to push her back up to her previous Batgirl level skills. :Smile:

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## Vworp Vworp

http://peony-lang.deviantart.com/

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## Jay Kay

> Well, we know that she's already become Spoiler by the time of Batman #28 (which takes place somewhere in the 40's of Eternal).  So she's going to be suiting up relatively quickly.


But we also know that Batman won't be encountering her until that time, so it might not be that quickly.

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## Chickfighter

> But we also know that Batman won't be encountering her until that time, so it might not be that quickly.


Yeppers, my interest in Eternal is waning some. I'm just not that into old-time gangsters or the whole "this is my city" feud that Batman and Falcone seem to have going on. But I still hope this retelling of War Games will get Steph right, making her a heroine rather than a fall gal.

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## OBrianTallent

I really liked Steph as Batgirl, but I think over all...I much prefer her as Spoiler.  It's her identity, her own special little nook in the Batworld.  Really can't wait for more of her story in Eternal to unfold.

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## Jay Kay

> Yeppers, my interest in Eternal is waning some. I'm just not that into old-time gangsters or the whole "this is my city" feud that Batman and Falcone seem to have going on. But I still hope this retelling of War Games will get Steph right, making her a heroine rather than a fall gal.


I think the Falcone stuff is just a prelude to the big stuff. Remember we also have The Spectre running around and a souped-up Deacon Blackfire making waves.

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## sunofdarkchild

Here are the plots for my idea for a NuSpoiler Nu52 ongoing from the old thread.

Spoiler #1 Plot



> A small armed gang attempts to rob a convenience store in Gotham Heights, but is stopped by the eggplant avenger. The perps escape, but without any money. Spoiler reflects that the vigilantes of the city proper would have been able to capture the gang, but on the other hand they have better tech and weapons, like grappling guns instead of hooks, and higher buildings to jump down from and climb back up when the action stops.
> 
> A short while later her "Spoiler signal," aka a communicator she painted purple, rings. She sees that she is being called by Alvin Draper, and her mood immediately brightens. Alvin Draper is Tim Drake, aka Red Robin of the Teen Titans. He is calling to see how she's doing, since today is the first anniversary of the day she had her baby and gave the child up for adoption. She tells him that she is trying not to think about it. She doesn't even know the gender of her child, let alone which foster parents he/she lives with now. Tim and Steph each say that they miss the other before hanging up.
> 
> Steph comes home in her civies and sees her mother smoking and watching television. She puts a container of pills from the local pharmacy on the kitchen table and storms off to her room without saying anything. Her mother had found the strength to overcome her addictions in order to help Steph through her pregnancy, and they had grown close for the first time in Steph's life, but Steph's almost dying due to complications during labor caused her mother to slip back into depression and her old habits. Once agin Steph is primarily a pair of legs to go to the pharmacy to her mother.
> 
> Steph is about to get started on her homework, but first checks her email. She received a google alert about Arthur Brown, her father, otherwise known as the Cluemaster. He broke out of Blackgate Prison earlier that day. Steph decides to forget about her homework as she owes it to her father to "make him another knuckle sandwich for our father-daughter reunion."
> 
> Several days later, the Spoiler is dragging the super-fat Czonka, aka the Baffler, across the ground, wishing out loud that he'd lay off the doughnuts. She reflects that her father hasn't been in contact with any of his old associates, which means that he is either teaming up with someone new, or that he decided to skip town altogether. If the latter turns out to be the case Steph will have to call one of the "big boys" to find her father and cart him back to jail.
> ...

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## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #2



> Spoiler lands on the roof of the local orphanage with the intent of seeing from their records if the baby Cluemaster has kidnapped is indeed her child. The point is moot, however, as the presence of Batman and Robin on the roof confirms her fears.
> 
> Batman demands that she leave this case to them, and Spoiler demands that they stay out of her way. Robin scoffs and remarks about her ineptitude. Batman asks if she plans to kill her father, and she replies yes; he has gone too far this time. After some more back and forth Robin loses his temper completely and attacks Spoiler. They trade blows for a few moments before he compares her qualifications to be a mother to those of Talia al Ghoul This pushes Spoiler's buttons, and she loses it completely and cuts loose, starting to beat the crap out of Robin before Batman restrains her.
> 
> Spoiler starts to calm down, and is horrified by what she almost did to Damian, who is actually slightly impressed. Spoiler insists to Batman that she has to finish this and turns to leave. But before she swings away she thanks Robin for reminding her of what she does not want to become. Robin frowns and insists that she is too dumb to learn anything, even from as skilled a teacher as him.
> 
> As she jumps across the rooftops of Gotham Heights Spoiler wonders if Batman intended for Robin to knock some sense back into her. Batman was always very vocal about his disapproval of her being the Spoiler, and was actually nicer than usual to her.
> 
> She enters the yard of a house and peers though the window at the living room. Her daughter was adopted by an upper-middle class couple who could not have children of their own. Both adoptive parents are home, and Spoiler see's how distraught they are.
> ...

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## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #3


> Circles and helicopters. The clues lead back to one place, Castleland Park Mall, where Spoiler first stopped one of her father's schemes and prevented his escape by helicopter. The mall is derilict now, having been abandoned after one of the many catastrophes to befall Gotham over the years.
> 
> Spoiler finds Cluemaster with the baby on the roof of the mall, standing close to the edge behind a video camera hooked up to a laptop. He welcomes his daughter and comments that she was smart not to bring "the bat and the bird," as he'd drop the kid at the first sign of either of them. He then relates how he deliberately left false clues in the baby's room for the dynamic duo to follow and only went back and added the helicopters after they had aready searched the house, so there is no chance of them arriving. Spoiler says that he has reached a new low, but tells him to give up quietly. Cluemaster says that it is she will will have to give up. He holds her now screaming daughter over the edge of the roof and demands that Spoiler take off her mask and "tell the world who you really are."
> 
> Spoiler realizes that her father is trying to do what even Batman couldn't, make her give up on the vigilante life altogether. The camera and laptop are already uploading the video of her to the internet and if she takes off her mask now the entire world will know who Spoiler is. With her identity so badly compromised she will not be able to operate as the Spoiler anymore, and she will be out of her father's hair for good. Heck, she'd probably be killed within a week by one of the many enemies the Spoiler had made.
> 
> But the distance between herself and her father is too great. If she makes a move he'll drop the baby before she could stop him, and from that height the fall would be fatal for a toddler.
> 
> Cluemaster says that he is waiting, and Spoiler looks directly into the camera and pulls back her hood. She removes her cape, and then her mask, and finally says her full name. Cluemaster orders her to say it louder, and she complies.
> ...

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## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #4




> Steph is finishing a difficult manuver in gym class when she hears a familiar voice yell "Hi, Stephanie Brown!" She thinks 'oh crap' before landing painfully on her backside, having been distracted from her acrobatics.
> 
> Rather than the laughter she expected, Steph hears screams from her fellow students. Turning her head, she realizes she shouldn't have been surprised by their reaction. 'It's not every day a blue witch boy with a murderous cat barges in on an all girls gym session.'
> 
> The gym teacher kicks Klarion out, much to his chagrin. He shows up again in the girls' locker room, causing even more screaming. When one girls yells at the "pervert!" he gets annoyed and turns the entire class except for Steph into frogs. Steph stands horrified holding her shirt half way down her abdomen, while Klarion is very pleased that the noise is gone.
> 
> Steph yells "What the hell is with you and turning people into frogs?!" Klarion is not sure what the problem is. Steph says never mind as long as he changes them back. She then gets around to asking him what he's doing there.
> 
> Klarion begins a long winded speech about Halloween coming up when Steph cuts him off and says that she already guessed this had something to do with Halloween and that he should just cut to the point.
> ...

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## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #5




> 2 Years Ago
> 
> The Ghost Dragons' attempt to start a protection racket in Gotham Heights is stopped by the new hero, the Spoiler. The gang escapes back to their leader, Lynx, who demands that they hunt down this interfering girl because the suburbs are too important for the dragons. The next night, Spoiler and "Red" Robin crash their hideout, much to Lynx's pleasure. The teenage heroes are overwhelmed, and at one point as Robin knocks Spoiler out of the way of gunfire he screams "Steph!" They hide, and Spoiler chides him for yelling her real name in front of the bad guys. He says he has a plan for how to escape.
> 
> The Present
> 
> Steph is walking home from school, thanking god that that boring day is over. She thinks to herself that if she doesn't see some action first she'll fall asleep over her homework out of sheer boredom. Coffee would help too, and be less distracting, but butt-kicking is where it's at.
> 
> As luck would have it, she spots a large, suspicious looking man in an oversized trench coat in front of her. Recognizing from the walk the tell tale signs of a man with concealed weapons, Steph decides to follow him to see what kind of trouble he's looking to get into. Several blocks later, the man enters the passenger side of a parked black car.
> ...

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## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #6 Special Double Sized Crossover with Teen Titans




> Reverand Knutland opens the door to his church to see a a very energetic Kid Flash say "Hi!" before disappearing to explore the building, causing many papers to be thrown around the church. Behind where he had been standing Tim, wearing black sunglasses and his civies, sheepishly apoligizes. Reverand Knutland says not to worry, that any friend of Spoiler's is welcome in his church. So Tim and the rest of the Titans enter.
> 
> Inside Spoiler is upset with Kid Flash. "I said to come in civilian clothes so you wouldn't draw attention to this place!" Tim apoligizes again, saying that they can't control Kid Flash and that he changed at super speed once they arrived. He then asks if she is happy to see him, and she replies "Always. But let's save the mushy stuff for when we don't have company." Superboy is annoyed while Wonder Girl is amused and asks why Tim never mentioned he had a girlfriend.
> 
> As he sits down Tim asks what the story is with the church. Spoiler says that one of her early actions as a vigilante was saving Reverand Knutland and many congregants from a fire in the church and then catching the arsonist. She and the reverand became friends afterwards.
> 
> Tim asks Spoiler to give them the full lowdown on what's going on. She fills them in on everything except her ssecret indentity. She says she called Red Robin because he knows more about the Ghost Dragons than anyone else and because "This is all your fault for yelling my real name in front of the bad guys."
> 
> Before Tim can respond Wonder Girl asks how he could do something as stupid as Kid Flash, and Spoiler answers playfully that "love makes us do really stupid things sometimes, right?"
> ...

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler #7


> Spoiler is fighting another band of armed thieves when one manages to get his gun pointed at her back. She is saved when Batgirl jumps on the man's back. Spoiler then throws a brick at another one trying to grab Batgirl from behind, and they trade banter about their needing to do a better job watching their own backs.
> 
> After the fight they retreat to a rooftop, and Spoiler thanks Batgirl for the help, but asks what she's doing out of the city. Batgirl says that she's working a case that started in Gotham, but refuses to elaborate further, and Spoiler realizes that Batgirl doesn't trust her. Batgirl admits that she never heard of Spoiler until that high profile kidnapping incident a month earlier, so she is wary of the younger vigilante. And it is clear that Batman does not approve of her.
> 
> Spoiler says that she may not be in the big leagues like Batman, but this is her town. If something big is going down she demands to know. Batgirl agrees. She says that she was keeping tabs on the GCPD's investigation of a suspected child molester when he vanished, and Batgirl's investigation led her to believe that he had relocated to Gotham Heights. Batgirl takes a photograph of the suspect out of her utility belt to show to Spoiler, who is startled by who she sees.
> 
> "Jim Murray. But he died years ago." Batgirl assures her that he is alive and well, although he goes by Andrew now, and asks if she knows him. Spoiler responds mechanically, saying that she is familiar with Murray's work. She says that she wants to help Batgirl with this case, and that she has an avenue of investigation she wants to check out. They agree to meet the same time the next night, but as Spoiler swings away Batgirl thinks to herself that she is still unsure about the younger vigilante. Spoiler reminds her too much of villains like Knightfall, and she seems to have as dark a past if her reaction to the photograph of Murray is any indication.
> 
> The next day, Stephanie pays a visit to her father in Blackgate Prison. Cluemaster asks if she plans on beating him up, but she ignores the question and cuts to the chase. "Where is Jim Murray?" Cluemaster is surprised, but Steph says to cut the act, that she knows he helped Murray fake his death six years earlier. Murray was not smart enough to pull it off on his own.
> ...

----------


## sunofdarkchild

And here's my take on what Steph in the Nolanverse would be like.


> Dear Diary,
> 
> It's been 2 weeks since Bane and his army took over Gotham. Marshall law is in full effect. But even worse than that, when Bane broke open Blackgate Prison, he also tore down the heroes Gotham would have looked to for inspiration. Harvey Dent turns out to be a murdering psychopath, and Commissioner Gordon turns out to be a liar. The commish's' wife over in Cleveland confirmed every word of Bane's speech, so we know it's all true. People don't know what to believe in anymore, so no one is able to make any sort of resistance against Bane.
> But, do you know something, dear diary? People are stupid. They don't realize that when Bane tore down Dent and Gordon, he inadvertently raised another symbol from the mud, a symbol Gotham could rally around if we'd just get our heads out of said mud. A symbol that today, we're going to remind everyone of.
> 
> Long live the resistance, dear diary!
> 
> --------------------
> 
> ...

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Steph in Nolanverse part 2




> Selina Kyle sighed as she watched the fight unfold on a nice plasma tv she took from some rich guy's apartment.
> 
> "You think this means you can defy Bane? He'll brake you too."
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> 
> While she was concentrating on the five opponents in front of her, the disarmed one behind her managed to get her in a headlock. Fortunately for her, the first one to take advantage was also someone she had already disarmed. He punched her in the face twice before kneeing her in the stomach.
> 
> Her arms were so busy trying to free her that she had forgotten that she could still fight with her legs until receiving that knee. She kicked up as hard as she could, connecting with the man's chin and knocking him back again. With her front momentarily clear, she was able to concentrate fully on the man holding her from behind. Several hits to the gut from both of her elbows caused him to let go.
> ...

----------


## beetlebum

If only this had actually happened. 

Dustin Nguyen is truly the best.

----------


## Kid A

Bluebird looks like she feels left out now that the Pre-52 gang is back together.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

http://animecat33.deviantart.com/

----------


## gwhh

Maybe she does have some Amazon blood in her.  Man, that would be a great story line!!

----------


## Vworp Vworp

It's just occurred to me, we've hit our *300th* page of this thread!!  

I think that seems like a good time for a little look back, and maybe revisiting some old DA pics.  First up, a look at where it all began...

----------


## Vworp Vworp

And naturally, we can't forget one of her finest moments...

----------


## Vworp Vworp

This was posted on Deviantart way back in 2007... a couple of years before Steph had even come back from the dead, let alone taken over the cowl.  Spooky!


http://raevir.deviantart.com/

----------


## gwhh

Sums Up The New 52 Story Line In A Heartbeat!!

----------


## Punisher007

Don't forget Nightwing getting the crap beat out of him and having his identity exposed to the entire world by the Crime Syndicate, or Jason losing his memories in an incredibly stupid way, or Bruce acting like a dick to all of his allies after Damian died, or Barbara's dad being accused of mass manslaughter, and so one and so forth.

----------


## phonogram12

> If only this had actually happened. 
> 
> Dustin Nguyen is truly the best.


This is some fantastic art here.

----------


## Punisher007

True, but I'm puzzled as to why Klarion is there?  He seems to be the odd man out.

----------


## ABH

> True, but I'm puzzled as to why Klarion is there?  He seems to be the odd man out.


I think he's there because he was in the book, at one point, but I might be wrong.

----------


## Dr. Hurt

> If only this had actually happened. 
> 
> Dustin Nguyen is truly the best.


Why isnt there a Nguyen Steph book like this? Why DC?

----------


## gwhh



----------


## beetlebum

More Steph and Cass cuteness.





Context for the pics.

[Source]

----------


## oasis1313

I think either Steph or Cass would be a better BatGIRL than Barbara due to their ages.

----------


## Laevatein

Is Steph in this week's issue of Eternal?

----------


## Sunbird

> Is Steph in this week's issue of Eternal?


Nope. Again. 

Wonder when super special important Steph is going to be allowed back.

----------


## mercuryfan

> If only this had actually happened. 
> 
> Dustin Nguyen is truly the best.


oh god this is amazing

----------


## beetlebum

> Nope. Again. 
> 
> Wonder when super special important Steph is going to be allowed back.


I think we have to be patient.

And it looks like she's going to be in Eternal #8, according to the latest preview on Comicvine.

Related to Steph, but not Eternal: Cute fan art.

----------


## gwhh

Stephanie Brown

http://jbadgr.deviantart.com/art/Com...rt-V-165159823

----------


## Punisher007

Batman Eternal #8: Stephanie Brown just cannot catch a break.  Poor girl.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Bat007007

> 


Spoiler is officially back baby !

----------


## Punisher007

That's a great costume design.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

It looks good.  And I'm glad we at least got to keep the eyes, rather than her old full-face mask.

But man, I'm gonna miss that smile.



(Albeit, on the very rare occasions she'll actually have a reason to smile in the DCnU!)

----------


## Sardorim

Wonder how they'll end up playing the Steph/Tim Dynamic after Eternal is over. Would be a shame if she vanished or those two never got to really interact.

----------


## Harpsikord

I imagine it'll be Tim that gives Steph and even Harper their tech. The new Dynamic Trio! I'm actually really excited for it.

----------


## Sardorim

No, not a new Dynamic Trio! No one can ever take Cass's spot! The iconic Dynamic Trio is always Tim, Steph and Cass! Like how the iconic Dynamic Duo will always be Bruce and Dick!

----------


## ABH

I like Cass, but DC seems to have completely removed her from play, and I doubt we'll see her any time soon.

Bluebird/Harper, however, is here, so her teaming up with Steph and/or Tim makes sense (in the current continuity).

----------


## sunofdarkchild

So Cluemaster used Steph as a 'cover' to get Batman off his back.  That's a lot like her second arc in Tim's Robin series.

----------


## Sardorim

> I like Cass, but DC seems to have completely removed her from play, and I doubt we'll see her any time soon.
> 
> Bluebird/Harper, however, is here, so her teaming up with Steph and/or Tim makes sense (in the current continuity).


Steph was removed the same way and she's back now. They know that Cass has a strong following and there's demand for her, like how there was a lot of demand for Steph.

Bluebird has no reason to be "friends" with Steph and Tim like Cass is to them. They can work together but Bluebird will never be a part of the Dynamic Trio.

----------


## Harpsikord

Do you know how incorrect that statement could prove to be? Tim is gonna end up training Harper and I'm pretty sure he's going to do the same for Steph, as well as supply them with their tech. Cassandra is, in my opinion, boring and a new dynamic trio (Tim, Steph, Harper) would be much more interesting to me than the old, and since all three characters are being focused on by Tynion, I'd say that it's entirely likely this is what we'll get.

----------


## Dr. Hurt

How can one man be this BASED? "Welcome Back Steph" by Dustin Nguyen. 
http://duss005.deviantart.com/art/We...teph-439739780

----------


## Punisher007

So I was thinking that this new Gotham Academy book that was just announced might be a good place for Steph (and Harper).  Make them main/major characters there and give something to do beyond just occasionally showing up in other people's books.

----------


## Dr. Hurt

> So I was thinking that this new Gotham Academy book that was just announced might be a good place for Steph (and Harper).  Make them main/major characters there and give something to do beyond just occasionally showing up in other people's books.


I was sort of thinking the same thing. I just posted this on the book's thread: 



> OK, Arkham Manor makes me feel uncomfortable for some reason. I feel like it's my home they're trashing. It's a very forced idea anyway. What i do like is Gotham Academy though. It has a very Buffy kind of feel to it. What would have made it better would be if Steph, Damian, Colin, Static and other kids were the protagonists and they comprised the "Buffy team". Steph has that everyman quality to her and placing her in a creepy school would be epic. I'll give both a shot.

----------


## doctormistermaster

> How can one man be this BASED? "Welcome Back Steph" by Dustin Nguyen. 
> http://duss005.deviantart.com/art/We...teph-439739780


This makes me miss Damian and Steph's relationship!  
Also Oracle and Nightwing in the black and blue.

Also I love this picture in every way. It makes me really want those Li'l Gotham figures and just more of Li'l Gotham in general.

----------


## ABH

> Do you know how incorrect that statement could prove to be? Tim is gonna end up training Harper and I'm pretty sure he's going to do the same for Steph, as well as supply them with their tech. Cassandra is, in my opinion, boring and a new dynamic trio (Tim, Steph, Harper) would be much more interesting to me than the old, and since all three characters are being focused on by Tynion, I'd say that it's entirely likely this is what we'll get.


Yeah, they all seemed pretty "chummy" in the Thanksgiving teaser:



(even though Tim has his creepy red devil eyes)

----------


## Punisher007

> Yeah, they all seemed pretty "chummy" in the Thanksgiving teaser:
> 
> 
> 
> (even though Tim has his creepy red devil eyes)


Oh no, he's still possessed by Trigon.  Prepare for more creepy-ass "possession sex."   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dr. Hurt

> This makes me miss Damian and Steph's relationship!


That makes two of us. Damian with Dick and Damian with Dick were the best things in comics for me.

----------


## Sardorim

> Do you know how incorrect that statement could prove to be? Tim is gonna end up training Harper and I'm pretty sure he's going to do the same for Steph, as well as supply them with their tech. Cassandra is, in my opinion, boring and a new dynamic trio (Tim, Steph, Harper) would be much more interesting to me than the old, and since all three characters are being focused on by Tynion, I'd say that it's entirely likely this is what we'll get.


Forced if Tim trains her and becomes best buddies with her as Harper and Tim don't fit. Extremely and disgustingly forced.

The Dynamic Trio is Cass, Steph and Tim. Harper has her own things and relationships, she shouldn't be a home wrecker and she will never be able to replace Cass or take Cass's spot as Cass will always be the iconic member of the Dynamic Trio. That and Cass, Steph and Tim naturally became the Dynamic Trio, Harper is a forced new character with a lame haircut and a wannabe Tim Drake.

Cass, Steph and Tim also compliment each other and what they bring to the table. Harper is an inferior Tim and Oracle and has nothing to offer that Tim cannot already bring to the table.

Cass is boring? I can see you aren't a fan of hers as she's far from boring and is very iconic for DC, in the comic verse, due to her being such a huge character despite being both female and a minority character.

----------


## Punisher007

There's nothing "forced" about it, you just don't want it.  I'm sorry, but "I don't PERSONALLY like it" DOES NOT equal "forced."  Plus, the story has barely even begun to play out and we have no idea where it's going, so your argument makes even less sense.

----------


## Sardorim

> There's nothing "forced" about it, you just don't want it.  I'm sorry, but "I don't PERSONALLY like it" DOES NOT equal "forced."  Plus, the story has barely even begun to play out and we have no idea where it's going, so your argument makes even less sense.


It is forced.

The Dynamic Trio is Cass, Steph and Tim. There's no Harper there, Harper is a new character being forced into Bat Books when she's nothing special and is an inferior to Tim and Pre-52 Oracle. She has nothing to offer to such a team up while Cass did and fit in naturally with them. Not to mention that with Cass being MIA atm it's VERY forced to try and force Harper, when she has no reason to be buddy buddies with those two, to take Cass's spot when only Cass should be filling said spot.

Harper will never be Cass and has no reason trying to take Cass's place as Cass > Harper.

It's even most disgusting if they try and have Harper be Steph's "best friend" when that's reserved for Cass. After all, you can only truly have "One" Best Friend and there's no one that fits better as Steph's Best Friend than Cass.

----------


## Claude

> The Dynamic Trio is Cass, Steph and Tim.





> It's even most disgusting if they try and have Harper be Steph's "best friend" when that's reserved for Cass.


Oh, I didn't actually know that! Do you have a link to the interview where the line-up of the Dynamic Trio, and the spot reserved for Cass, are mentioned?  :Smile:

----------


## Cmbmool

> Forced if Tim trains her and becomes best buddies with her as Harper and Tim don't fit. Extremely and disgustingly forced.
> 
> The Dynamic Trio is Cass, Steph and Tim. Harper has her own things and relationships, she shouldn't be a home wrecker and she will never be able to replace Cass or take Cass's spot as Cass will always be the iconic member of the Dynamic Trio. That and Cass, Steph and Tim naturally became the Dynamic Trio, Harper is a forced new character with a lame haircut and a wannabe Tim Drake.
> 
> Cass, Steph and Tim also compliment each other and what they bring to the table. Harper is an inferior Tim and Oracle and has nothing to offer that Tim cannot already bring to the table.
> 
> Cass is boring? I can see you aren't a fan of hers as she's far from boring and is very iconic for DC, in the comic verse, due to her being such a huge character despite being both female and a minority character.


Even so, can Harper fit into the Batman family without feeling like a home wrecker ?

----------


## Sardorim

As of this point? Hard to say. She's already trying to be Tim and Oracle in one when she's a nobody and she's being forced hard into the Bat Family. Bad enough she's going to be sporting Nightwing's colors after Dick was kicked out to be a Secret Agent. Having her steal Cass's stuff to make Harper seem more relevant, interesting or having a reason to be around would be highly disgusting.

That and no one will be able to replace Steph's best friend, Cass.




> Oh, I didn't actually know that! Do you have a link to the interview where the line-up of the Dynamic Trio, and the spot reserved for Cass, are mentioned?


Are you a new blood? Were you even around before New 52 as your statement is that of someone who never read any of the pre-52 stuff. The Dynamic Trio established itself over many years through the characters interactions, their relationships with each other and the fact that they worked well together without anything before forced. They were a Trio because it made sense, not because of a desire for a new character to try and ride off important characters to further their own image.

A new character, who barely knows anyone of the Bat Family and hasn't been here that long, cannot and should never hope to come close to such thing as the Dynamic Trio which was forged over many years.

Hence forced if Harper is even attempted to be a Cass replacement when she isn't Cass and never will be Cass.

----------


## t hedge coke

> Are you a new blood? Were you even around before New 52 as your statement is that of someone who never read any of the pre-52 stuff.


Please don't start any kind of "new blood"/"old school" thing. I'm still old school enough Cass and Steph seem like "new" characters to me (then I add up the years and feel old), but Cass wasn't invented to be Steph's bff. It's not written into their creation, nor is it really a significant part of most of their stories.

You can want things, you can enjoy them, without them having to be written in immutable stone. And that isn't dependent on when someone came in or not, as a reader/fan.

----------


## godisawesome

I will say that Cass and Steph's friendship did a lot for both characters, helping to integrate Cass into the more "main-stream Bat family" by pairing her with a then developed character with diametric personality traits and Steph's popularity got even more of a rise from the interaction; she became a major supporting character for two different books at the same time, and her "spunk" and spirit got showcased twice a month with the stoic but joyful Cass and the somber but snarky Tim. And the three characters did form a kind of "third generation" in the Batfamily, after Nightwing and Oracle's "Generation two." So if all three were back in business but kept separate, I would be a little disappointed, if for no other reason than that it would seem a refutation of my favorite Batfamily permutation and relationship chart.

And I can see a bit of a weakness in Harper resembling Spoiler. "Wrong side of the tracks teenage girl who's spunky and anatgonsitic towards a disappointing father figure while tied to the family through an entanglement with Tim Drake and is an adhoc sidekick with reluctance from Batman himself" is a rather narrow superlative that applies to both characters, similar to the basic foundation of Pre-Crisis Jason Todd in comparison to Dick Grayson. Only time will tell of Harper will emerge entirely from being largely a pallet swap of Stephanie.

----------


## Sardorim

> Please don't start any kind of "new blood"/"old school" thing. I'm still old school enough Cass and Steph seem like "new" characters to me (then I add up the years and feel old), but Cass wasn't invented to be Steph's bff. It's not written into their creation, nor is it really a significant part of most of their stories.
> 
> You can want things, you can enjoy them, without them having to be written in immutable stone. And that isn't dependent on when someone came in or not, as a reader/fan.


It's already a thing. New Blood wouldn't be able to appreciate stuff before their time. Cass is an amazing character who cannot be replaced or her role and relationships taken by another. Characters have tried that before and they've always failed. 

It is when they dismiss stuff they know little about because they want to force something unnatural in.

----------


## doctormistermaster

I don't really think that the old blood/new blood argument carries much weight. People have personal tastes that may not reflect your own and when you begin reading a comic is highly relative (I am a Post-Crisis kid for example) but doesn't necessarily reflect taste (I really like Silver Age comics). This attitude is why many people view comic fans as being highly elitist. To some people Jason Todd felt forced and to others he is an integral part of the Batfamily (alive or dead). I remember the initial backlash towards Damian being quite strong.
When I first got into comics Hal Jordan was Parallax and Superman was dead and I still appreciated both characters.

I have been reading comics on and off for a number of years and this thread is the first mention I have ever come across of the Dynamic Trio. I am familiar with all three characters but the relationship they shared together being a foundational element of the characters is not something I was familiar with. I knew that they were friends but I had no clue that this friendship was exclusive to the trio. I am not a big fan of Harper Row but I have not been that interested in Snyder's work so possibly under a different pen she could be more interesting to me. I do appreciate your concern and I really hope that Cass comes back into continuity.

----------


## ABH

> New Blood wouldn't be able to appreciate stuff before their time.


Yeah, that's bull, so let's stop with that right now.

I wasn't around in 1938 or 1939, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the first appearances of Superman and Batman. Even my beloved Star Wars pre-dates my birth by two years, so put that very broad brush away. 

Anyway, there's that rumor about Cass's return, so...

----------


## K. Jones

> It is forced.
> 
> The Dynamic Trio is Cass, Steph and Tim. There's no Harper there, Harper is a new character being forced into Bat Books when she's nothing special and is an inferior to Tim and Pre-52 Oracle. She has nothing to offer to such a team up while Cass did and fit in naturally with them. Not to mention that with Cass being MIA atm it's VERY forced to try and force Harper, when she has no reason to be buddy buddies with those two, to take Cass's spot when only Cass should be filling said spot.
> 
> Harper will never be Cass and has no reason trying to take Cass's place as Cass > Harper.
> 
> It's even most disgusting if they try and have Harper be Steph's "best friend" when that's reserved for Cass. After all, you can only truly have "One" Best Friend and there's no one that fits better as Steph's Best Friend than Cass.


Sweet Jesus, a proper Batgirl v.1 fan!

I'm totally open for this rumor, BTW. I'm strongly in favor of Cass and Steph maintaining BFF status across relaunches (bring in Kara Zor-El, stat) but there can never be enough Girl Wonder type sidekicks running around, not getting shunted into limbo or killed off. And it's a neat dynamic to have Batwoman trying to wrangle younger women - she's a kickass role model but it's hardly her area (Babs seems like a more natural fit for "mentor status"). But then, if it's Batwoman, that means Bette can be included, too. Which means like every Batgirl ever under one roof.

----------


## oasis1313

So far Harper Row's biggest fan appears to be Scott Snyder.

----------


## nepenthes

> So far Harper Row's biggest fan appears to be Scott Snyder.



She has silly seapunk hair and a nose ring and she's an electrician. She's great, I'm a big fan.





http://batlad.deviantart.com/


http://aaronpage.deviantart.com/

----------


## Punisher007

Yeah so what?  Writers being fans of the characters that THEY create, how shocking.

----------


## Punisher007

> She has silly seapunk hair and a nose ring and she's an electrician. She's great, I'm a big fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://batlad.deviantart.com/
> 
> 
> http://aaronpage.deviantart.com/


Holy crap!!  That Steph image is AMAZING!!  Bravo my good sure, bravo.

----------


## Godlike13

Heehee, i like the boobs press  :Cool:

----------


## gwhh

http://comicsauthority.com/2013/10/2...atgirl-rising/

----------


## Vworp Vworp

http://charlestanart.deviantart.com/

----------


## Vworp Vworp

http://samanthadoodles.deviantart.com/

----------


## catbatfan

Does anyone else feel slightly disappointed whenever Steph doesn't appear in an issue of Eternal? Her story is one of the slowest-moving. Can't wait to see what inspires her to take up the Spoiler identity though!

----------


## Vworp Vworp

If I was cynical and had very little faith in DC (the if may be redundant), I'd be wondering if Steph's new origin isn't setting her on a path to being a more grim-dark Spoiler, perhaps to fill the gap left by the new perktastic Miss Gordon.

----------


## Chickfighter

> If I was cynical and had very little faith in DC (the if may be redundant), I'd be wondering if Steph's new origin isn't setting her on a path to being a more grim-dark Spoiler, perhaps to fill the gap left by the new perktastic Miss Gordon.


I do worry about that now that Barbara is becoming Steph Bat.

----------


## napolid

> Does anyone else feel slightly disappointed whenever Steph doesn't appear in an issue of Eternal? Her story is one of the slowest-moving. Can't wait to see what inspires her to take up the Spoiler identity though!


Steph's story is part of the central arc, and while the all other smaller arcs appear separate atm they will eventually tie into Stephs, not the other way around. That why her arc is progressing so slowly. imo

----------


## catbatfan

> Steph's story is part of the central arc, and while the all other smaller arcs appear separate atm they will eventually tie into Stephs, not the other way around. That why her arc is progressing so slowly. imo


The central arc appears to be the Gordon train accident. Do we think the person responsible for that is the same mystery man (or woman) from Cluemaster's secret meeting in issue 3?

----------


## The Lucky One

> Does anyone else feel slightly disappointed whenever Steph doesn't appear in an issue of Eternal? Her story is one of the slowest-moving. Can't wait to see what inspires her to take up the Spoiler identity though!


Sort of, but it also means I don't have to drive to the comic shop that day, and I save $2.99, so there are benefits too.

----------


## Punisher007

Not really.  It was made perfectly clear that _Eternal_ was a story about Gotham as a whole and that it would involve most of the Bat-characters.  So I was never expecting Steph to appear in all of the issues, and we know that she becomes Spoiler eventually.  There's going to be at least 60 issues, so we've got plenty of time left.  I'm buying the series because I'm enjoying it as a whole, not just because Steph is in it.

----------


## Chickfighter

> Does anyone else feel slightly disappointed whenever Steph doesn't appear in an issue of Eternal? Her story is one of the slowest-moving. Can't wait to see what inspires her to take up the Spoiler identity though!


That is the inherent problem with all these mega crossover style stories and to some extent even team books for me. For any character other than Steph or perhaps Cass I would not be putting myself through all this just to get a couple of pages every other issue.

----------


## Alastor



----------


## scary harpy

> http://samanthadoodles.deviantart.com/


The art is beautiful. 

I think her current Spoiler costume is better than this.

----------


## ABH

> 


Heh, that's awesome.

(I always picked the tophat  :Cool:  )

----------


## catbatfan

> That is the inherent problem with all these mega crossover style stories and to some extent even team books for me. For any character other than Steph or perhaps Cass I would not be putting myself through all this just to get a couple of pages every other issue.


I'm buying it mostly for Steph, but I'm also buying it because it's a Batman weekly AND it's Batman's 75th anniversary. I just wish Steph was playing a larger role. They hyped her role up so much but so far have failed to deliver. And James Tynion, who was so gung-ho on bringing her back, is doing the worst job of writing Steph and her story. I can only assume her role will expand in the second half of the series when she's in full-blown Spoiler mode.

As for a "dark, gritty" Stephanie Brown, it's too soon to say. She's so focused on taking down Cluemaster that we won't really see her true personality until this conflict is over.

----------


## teej

Plus it's not like Steph's pre-Flashpoint origin was all bright and happy to begin with. She didn't debut by kicking through doors, throwing quips left and right. She was bitter and angry, intent on getting revenge on her father for the life he left for her mom and herself. Heck, if I'm remembering correctly Steph's mom was abusing pills or something along those lines. That's pretty heavy happenings for a teenage girl even by Gotham's standards. So her personality and voice reflected that in her first few appearances.

Then in her next few appearances Chuck Dixon started developing her personality to reflect how actual people deal with problems. Not dwelling on the past and moving forward. Overtime we eventually got the Steph we saw just before Flashpoint. It's really a testament to how great of a writer Dixon is. 

So at this point I'm going to say Tynion's going with the good old Dixon origin. It's always darkest just before the dawn and all that jazz. Just a bit darker because this is Scott Snyder's thing and it's the nu52.

----------


## The Lucky One

> Plus it's not like Steph's pre-Flashpoint origin was all bright and happy to begin with. She didn't debut by kicking through doors, throwing quips left and right. She was bitter and angry, intent on getting revenge on her father for the life he left for her mom and herself. Heck, if I'm remembering correctly Steph's mom was abusing pills or something along those lines. That's pretty heavy happenings for a teenage girl even by Gotham's standards. So her personality and voice reflected that in her first few appearances.


And her gymnastics coach was dealing drugs to students.  And a later story revealed her ex-con babysitter tried to molest her, and soon after died of an "accidental" (possibly Cluemaster-induced) drug overdose.

You're quite correct in saying that the current version of Stephanie Brown is not going to be the BQM version revived.  Mostly because he's not writing her anymore, of course, and also because that lighthearted, spunky role is going to Barbara now.  If Steph had been introduced, say, 2 years ago during Barbara's grimdark adventures, with a personality similar to her solo series, she could've been a refreshing alternative.  But that isn't what happened.  C'est la vie.  But her old role is now taken, so be prepared for a Steph who, as teej observes, is far more similar to Chuck Dixon's "chip on the shoulder" version than BQM's version.  That version isn't coming back at least until Barbara has vacated that role, if ever.

----------


## Chickfighter

> And her gymnastics coach was dealing drugs to students.  And a later story revealed her ex-con babysitter tried to molest her, and soon after died of an "accidental" (possibly Cluemaster-induced) drug overdose.
> 
> You're quite correct in saying that the current version of Stephanie Brown is not going to be the BQM version revived.  Mostly because he's not writing her anymore, of course, and also because that lighthearted, spunky role is going to Barbara now.  If Steph had been introduced, say, 2 years ago during Barbara's grimdark adventures, with a personality similar to her solo series, she could've been a refreshing alternative.  But that isn't what happened.  C'est la vie.  But her old role is now taken, so be prepared for a Steph who, as teej observes, is far more similar to Chuck Dixon's "chip on the shoulder" version than BQM's version.  That version isn't coming back at least until Barbara has vacated that role, if ever.


It does indeed appear that the new Barbara Batgirl approach will tap much of what made the Steph Batgirl series my favorite. I find it interesting that Cameron Stewart, who drew Steph's last hurrah Batman, Inc. episode, is one of the creative forces behind the new Batgirl direction. Morrison did a nice job of capturing Miller's deft approach for that one episode with its fun and the theme of epiphany of recognized self-worth. It will be interesting to see if Batgirl's new team can make it work for Barbara.

Hopefully Steph's Spoiler can eventually have some of that as well. Hopefully she will be involved in winning the day in the Batman Eternal comic in some real way that was denied her in War Games. I certainly don't mind her being the "frequently not recognized as good enough" character who constantly has to try harder. That's the character I liked even before Steph became Batgirl. But eventually there needs to be a pay-off to the character building, small successes along the way, or it just becomes a piling on of personal baggage. I always enjoyed the sort of scenes where Steph's refusal to give up in the face of failure would impress some other character. Give me some of that and some measure of triumph at the end of a given story and I think I'll be satisfied.

----------


## catbatfan

I really don't think we're going to get a dreary buzzkill Stephanie. It's a shame DC made such a big creative change with the Barbara Batgirl book. It looks exactly like the kind of book I'd want to read if Steph were Batgirl. But I can't stand Barbara as Batgirl so I'll be passing on it.

I'm interested in what her status quo will be after Eternal. Cluemaster will likely go to jail or die, so what will inspire Steph to keep going as the Spoiler? Will she be friends with Harper? What will her role be in the Bat family? As for the next few issues of Eternal, what will make her decide to don the Spoiler costume? I imagine she will decide to finally confront her father and realizes she needs to come out of hiding and disguising herself.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Vworp Vworp

In case anyone missed this....

http://www.newsarama.com/21779-spoil...n-eternal.html

----------


## Vanguard-01

> In case anyone missed this....
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/21779-spoil...n-eternal.html


Ahhh!

Nice to see such a great treatise on why Steph is awesome! That article covered pretty much everything about why we love this girl!

Nice to see she's also going to be a central figure in Batman: Eternal, as well. She obviously hasn't done a whole lot yet, but it looks like she'll get there eventually. 

Love that article. Makes me so glad to be a Steph fan!

----------


## Chickfighter

> In case anyone missed this....
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/21779-spoil...n-eternal.html


That's my favorite character there, surviving on heart, hope and humor in the face of whatever is thrown at her.  :Wink:

----------


## kidstandout

how old is she in the new 52?

----------


## gwhh

http://iro-the-random-one.deviantart...elly-360964995


Another cool one of them:

http://iro-the-random-one.deviantart...ress-378984689

----------


## K. Jones

> how old is she in the new 52?


Unconfirmed. I suspect "college freshman age", though. That keeps her at "a little older than Tim", like she's always been.

----------


## Harpsikord

Burnside-ized Steph and Cass!

----------


## Aprillis



----------


## OBrianTallent

Is that from this weeks Eternal???

----------


## sunofdarkchild

It is.  Steph appears at the end.

----------


## K. Jones

> Is that from this weeks Eternal???


It is.

The fact she's been kind of missing (both in the story and in issues we read, as a focus) is addressed and internalized in the story as her warnings have been overlooked, becoming her motivation to put a costume on, presumably.

Not my favorite art, but it was a nice Epilogue for the first "Act" of Eternal.

----------


## ABH

Wow, I really like the new look.

She's done the full-face mask, and domino masks are over-done, so ninja-mask with a hood looks damn good.

----------


## OBrianTallent

OK, I am hooked (not that I wasn't before) but now I really wish this was spinning not into the next issue but into Spoiler #1.

----------


## catbatfan

Good to see Stephanie suit up, although it is out of the blue a little. Where did she get the stuff for her costume and why exactly does she think it's a good idea to suit up? Seems pretty dangerous!

----------


## sunofdarkchild

I do hope that that bit on what she does with her blog was hyperbole.  There's no reason for any version of Steph to be 'posting nude selfies.'

----------


## Vanguard-01

That new costume is spectacular!

It really is the best of both worlds between her Batgirl costume and her Spoiler costume. 

Can't wait to see Steph start kicking some serious ass!

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I do hope that that bit on what she does with her blog was hyperbole.  There's no reason for any version of Steph to be 'posting nude selfies.'


I took it that she was exposing others who did it, not doing it herself...

----------


## Sardorim

> Wow, I really like the new look.
> 
> She's done the full-face mask, and domino masks are over-done, so ninja-mask with a hood looks damn good.


Well, before the reboot her best friend was a ninja in a way... Cassandra lives on through Stephanie, hopefully Cassandra appears soon enough.

----------


## Punisher007

The costume looks REALLY cool.  I do hope that we get some kind of explanation of where she got the materials to make it.  It's pretty intricate (as opposed to the original Spoiler costume which looked like it could be homemade), and she's basically been living on the streets with nothing but the clothes on her back for most of the book so far.  Maybe she stole some of her father's equipment and "Spoiler-ized" it, that could work?

----------


## The Lucky One

> The costume looks REALLY cool.  I do hope that we get some kind of explanation of where she got the materials to make it.  It's pretty intricate (as opposed to the original Spoiler costume which looked like it could be homemade), and she's basically been living on the streets with nothing but the clothes on her back for most of the book so far.  Maybe she stole some of her father's equipment and "Spoiler-ized" it, that could work?


In Gotham, I assume one can't walk ten steps without tripping over random cachets of costume materials and crimefighting gadgets stashed in various alleys, under loose floorboards, and on rooftops throughout the city.  Batman has probably forgotten more places he's stashed gear than we can imagine.

You can probably make a pretty good living just collecting and reselling the stuff that drops off his costume during rooftop trysts with Catwoman.

----------


## Punisher007

Which is fine, as long as it's addressed.  It doesn't need to be a really long or super-detailed explanation, just as long as there IS an explanation.

----------


## catbatfan

^^ Yes. I do find it a bit jarring that she'd go from blogging to crimefighting seemingly overnight. They should have been building up to this more.

----------


## catbatfan

Doesn't sound like we'll get an explanation:

*Seeley:* We felt like there was enough time between her storyline that, we didn’t want to overexplain. She was wearing a purple hoodie before, and gets militarized. We don’t need to spend a lot of time on that, we just show you this girl made this choice. Let’s kick this into gear, we need to see The Spoiler, lets not make them wait for much longer.

http://www.mtv.com/news/1904790/batm...l-post-game-20

----------


## Cowtools

> Doesn't sound like we'll get an explanation:
> 
> *Seeley:* We felt like there was enough time between her storyline that, we didn’t want to overexplain. She was wearing a purple hoodie before, and gets militarized. We don’t need to spend a lot of time on that, we just show you this girl made this choice. Let’s kick this into gear, we need to see The Spoiler, lets not make them wait for much longer.
> 
> http://www.mtv.com/news/1904790/batm...l-post-game-20


I can respect that as a creative choice, but I'm a bit disappointed. I like the scenes of the character gathering their crime fighting materials, deciding their style and colour scheme and all that.

Maybe they'll explain it in flashback in the inevitable Spoiler ongoing series (which will run to 100+ issues of course)  :Big Grin:

----------


## catbatfan

I agree with their logic to some extent. We've been especially waiting for Steph to gear up as Spoiler ever since they teased us with Batman #28 way back in February. Or maybe she's not as skilled as she thinks she is first time out and that's how she'll be drawn into the Batfamily. Maybe Harper and Tim will help her hone her skills to some extent?

----------


## Tobey

[ hope with the upcoming release of the New 52 figures of Batgirl, Supergirl and Stargirl, maybe we could finally get a Spoiler figure. Maybe even a Bluebird too.

----------


## kidstandout

> Unconfirmed. I suspect "college freshman age", though. That keeps her at "a little older than Tim", like she's always been.


so 17/18?
i would of said high school senior

----------


## Chickfighter

> [ hope with the upcoming release of the New 52 figures of Batgirl, Supergirl and Stargirl, maybe we could finally get a Spoiler figure. Maybe even a Bluebird too.


I have the Steph Batgirl figure and would certainly be up to get a Spoiler one!  :Wink:

----------


## Punisher007

> I can respect that as a creative choice, but I'm a bit disappointed. I like the scenes of the character gathering their crime fighting materials, deciding their style and colour scheme and all that.
> 
> Maybe they'll explain it in flashback in the inevitable Spoiler ongoing series (which will run to 100+ issues of course)


The problem is that that costume looks pretty elaborate, heck it's got freaking armor on it.  If it were her old costume, which did look homemade, then fine.  But given how they've gone out of there wear to show her living in a freaking vent with nothing but the clothes on her back, not explaining how/where she got such a professionally-made costume, and a freaking ninja weapon from the looks of it, strikes me as a copeout.  You guys CHOSE to put her in this position as a plot point, so to just handwave it away seems really lazy.  For a "creative choice" it's not at all creative.

----------


## catbatfan

Steph is on the cover of next week's Batman Eternal. Let's hope she appears in more than 3 pages!

----------


## Laevatein

Just come back from travelling overseas for a month, and I haven't been following Eternal.  What issues has Steph appeared in during that time?

----------


## Enigmatic Undead

> Just come back from travelling overseas for a month, and I haven't been following Eternal.  What issues has Steph appeared in during that time?


Batman Eternal #3, 4, 8, 10, 11, 13 and 20 so far.

----------


## RohanriderX

you guys read batgirl futures end  steph!!! and cass!!! both as batgirl!!

----------


## Punisher007

And still BFF's to boot.

----------


## RohanriderX

> And still BFF's to boot.


i feel like the "drop anything that looks like a gun" line was ripped right outta bryan millers batgirl

----------


## Blacksun

batgirl futures end was nice, good to see more than one batgirl

----------


## gwhh

http://paperkeg.com/post/5191397748/...-brown-batgirl

http://fyeahstephbrown.tumblr.com/

----------


## Galcyon

Today's issue of Eternal featured Stephanie prominently.  It's a must read for Steph fans!

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## Nick Miller

that is awesome right there. Takara is a pro right?

----------


## gwhh

A video about her:


http://youtu.be/7DTgQuNu-w0

----------


## Ticklefist

> A video about you
> 
> http://youtu.be/7DTgQuNu-w0


What's the connection to Stephanie Brown?

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Can someone please tell me which issues come after Gotham Underworld that she's in? Google is failing me. Thanks!

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Can someone please tell me which issues come after Gotham Underworld that she's in? Google is failing me. Thanks!


check out comicbookdb.com.  If you look down the left side of the screen, you can type in the character's name and it will give you a brief history of the character as well as a listing of every appearance.   :Smile:

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

Ooh thanks! I may never get anything else done again though, lol.

----------


## nepenthes

> 


This is great!

----------


## gwhh

Love At First Sight.  Detective Comics 648

----------


## gwhh

LOL:

----------


## Wildcat

> This is great!


This really is awesome!   :Big Grin:  I hope someday we get an animated series or live action film where Stephanie plays a big role!

----------


## Babs

> so 17/18?
> i would of said high school senior


I think it said she's in high school in Batman Eternal recently. So, i'm guessing Steph is around 14 to 16. That would also make sense if Futures end is 5 years in the future, since then as Batgirl she's 19 or 20, just like in her own Batgirl run.

----------


## Babs

> It does indeed appear that the new Barbara Batgirl approach will tap much of what made the Steph Batgirl series my favorite.


The mistake a lot of people seem to make is thinking that Barbara is now following Stephanie's footsteps as a college age and more lighthearted Batgirl. It's actually pretty much the other way around. Outside of her role as Oracle in the mainstream comics continuity, Barbara has had many incarnations as a college-age lighthearted Batgirl looooong before they put Stephanie into the suit. Watch any cartoon, or read books like Batgirl Year one and stuff like that.When Stephanie took on the role of Batgirl, a lot of people were saying that DC was changing Stephanie into a blond clone of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.  Looking back on things, it does feel like taking Cassandra out and putting Stephanie into the Batgirl role for 2 years in a costume that was much more similar to Barbara's design with the open mouth-piece and exposed hair, combined with Barbara as her mentor. I do see a pretty big similarity between how Steph was in her Batgirl book and how Babs was in BG: Year One and stuff. It does kinda feel like DC already knew what the plan was, and were simply doing this as a warm-up or transition period leading up to the return of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. 

I really loved Stephanie's run as Batgirl though. I was super happy when they finally brought Stephanie into the new52. At this point i think the Spoiler role is just perfect for her. It's more unique and original. Now that Babs is out of the chair and Batgirl, it's interesting to see what happens if Batgirl and Spoiler ever run into eachother now that there isn't the same mentor/student relationship. Although i could see a storyline of Bruce not accepting Stephanie, but Babs being like..."Don't worry about the big guy, i'll help you."

----------


## The Lucky One

> The mistake a lot of people seem to make is thinking that Barbara is now following Stephanie's footsteps as a college age and more lighthearted Batgirl. It's actually pretty much the other way around. Outside of her role as Oracle in the mainstream comics continuity, Barbara has had many incarnations as a college-age lighthearted Batgirl looooong before they put Stephanie into the suit. Watch any cartoon, or read books like Batgirl Year one and stuff like that.


Mmm, yes and no. "College age" was definitely Steph's niche, and a fairly unique one (as Batgirls go, that is), going for that whole on-campus, Season 4 Buffy/Season 3 Veronica Mars vibe. Barbara obviously never had that in the comics, being in her late 20s/early 30s in the original Bronze Age comics, and even post-Crisis/Year One she was already a college graduate when she became Batgirl. I haven't seen every animated version, of course, but I'm pretty sure that at least in TAS, she was past college age (or at least I don't remember her ever attending any classes). On the last season of Young Justice I guess she might have been college age, but she didn't really do a whole lot on that show, either.

Lighthearted, though, I would agree with, though I think they hit different aspects. Babs' '60s adventures were somewhat goofier (not to say Steph and Kara fighting Draculas isn't goofy...), and then a lot of her late '70s/early '80s adventures vacillated between pretty serious and somewhat goofy, but I don't think they were going for quite as much of a "comedy vibe" as BQM brought to Steph's book.

TL;DR. Hopefully everyone's stoked about the 2-issue "Convergence" miniseries featuring Steph as Batgirl (with Cass as Black Bat and Tim as Red Robin) coming out this summer! I'm bummed that BQM isn't writing it, but here's hoping it'll be great anyway. As always, voting with your wallet is the only way to let DC know you'd like to see more of the character (and the pre-New 52 characters in general, really).

----------


## Punisher007

Barbara was in high school during TAS, and she was shown attending college during the _Mystery of the Batwoman_ movie (which takes place during the _New Batman Adventures_ era).  And in YJ, she's in HS during season 1 and is like college-age in season 2 (Dick is 19, and she's around his age).

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

Wasn't she in her late teens in Batgirl Year One? She graduated college early because she skipped several years IIRC.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

So, even with an absurdly high bounty on her head and most of Gotham's criminal element trying to kill her, Steph is so good at avoiding trouble that most of the crooks have come to believe that she's a myth.

Cause she's awesome that way.

----------


## Chickfighter

> So, even with an absurdly high bounty on her head and most of Gotham's criminal element trying to kill her, Steph is so good at avoiding trouble that most of the crooks have come to believe that she's a myth.
> 
> Cause she's awesome that way.


DC certainly has done its best at times to keep Steph out of sight. Did I miss something in a recent issue along these lines? I'm afraid I don't read too closely if I don't see Steph in the issue. This Eternal mash-up is the sort of sprawling story that ultimately isn't my thing and they only roped me into because of Steph's inclusion.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> DC certainly has done its best at times to keep Steph out of sight. Did I miss something in a recent issue along these lines? I'm afraid I don't read too closely if I don't see Steph in the issue. This Eternal mash-up is the sort of sprawling story that ultimately isn't my thing and they only roped me into because of Steph's inclusion.


In the latest issue Selina is pissed because she doesn't know what is going on.  On a hunch she checks for unusual bounties in Gotham and finds that there is a $100 million bounty on Cluemaster's daughter dead.  "Seventeen years old.  Only Nobody's been able to catch her.  Guys starting to say she's gotta be a joke.  An urban legend."  Hearing all that Selina decides that Steph has the answers she's looking for.

----------


## Matt Krotzer

I'm anxiously awaiting the story cycle that brings Steph's storyline back to the fore. It's been very sparsely sprinkled throughout... honestly, I think Eternal needs less Batman-focus, and a lot more attention on the rest of the supporting cast. (Haven't seen much of Tim and Bluebird lately, either.)

----------


## Chickfighter

Thanks, Sunofdarkchild. I'll go back and look for that bit.

The Batgirl: Convergence solicit looks like fun. Hope so.

----------


## Laevatein

> Thanks, Sunofdarkchild. I'll go back and look for that bit.
> 
> The Batgirl: Convergence solicit looks like fun. Hope so.


So do I, but I worry that it will actually be Didio and co giving a middle finger to anyone who preferred the pre-reboot DC books.

----------


## Sardorim

Convergence Batgirl looks interesting but..

Why is Tim referred to as "Red Robin" but Cassandra is "Cassandra Cain" instead of "Black Bat"?

I really hope none of them die off. I loved the team dynamic they all had with each other. Also, if Steph did quit for awhie than I wonder how Tim and Cass will react to her return and if they got any development while Steph was "Retired".

----------


## gwhh

Who is Babs suppose to be carrying on her back?  Its not Dick G.  He looks way to young to be Dick G.





Great comic page.  Anyone know what issue this is from?  

Yeah, Tim its time you realize that she all grown up and can do battle with anyone and win!

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

That moment was so overdue. I hated how he treated her.

----------


## K. Jones

> That moment was so overdue. I hated how he treated her.


The whole dynamic was a bit overdue, really, with Tim being on-the-outs and Steph kicking ass and being the golden girl. She still screwed up here and there, but nobody was jumping down her throat about it. (Dick tried to briefly (job pressure). Babs wasn't having it.)

Not that Tim is ever "truly" on the outs. I mean, not with Bruce he won't be. "Partners." And he survived Flashpoint mostly intact, too.

----------


## Tuxedo Elf

No, he's always been somewhat favoured, it's true. But I was re-reading the old Robin series and realised just how much he looks down on her, almost from the start. Granted at that point she still had a lot of growing to do, but it was irritating. Even later on, he *demanded* she stop being Spoiler as though he had the right. And up until she beat up Prudence had very little faith in her. It was very satisfying to see him awestruck! It's weird though, I don't recall him ever treating anyone else like that. 

And yeah, that was not Dick's finest moment.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick was uncharacteristic with Cass too. Seems he's pretty protective of the Batgirl title. He never really warmed up to either of them.

----------


## Punisher007

Well there was probably also the fact that the Batgirl that he was closest to ended up in a wheelchair at the hands of one of Batman's rogues.  Probably made him reevaluate things.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Dick was uncharacteristic with Cass too. Seems he's pretty protective of the Batgirl title. He never really warmed up to either of them.


Well, I think Dick warmed up to Cass once Babs vouched for her. Same with Steph, I guess. Dick's relationship with Cass was really inconsistent. There were times in which he was like a big brother to her, and there were times when he was antagonistic and out-of-character.

----------


## Agent Z

So I found this post on tumblr about BGM's Steph and, well,

http://redundantthinking.tumblr.com/...veryone-in-the 

I mean do any Steph fans feel this way? That she was 'declawed'?

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> So I found this post on tumblr about BGM's Steph and, well,
> 
> http://redundantthinking.tumblr.com/...veryone-in-the 
> 
> I mean do any Steph fans feel this way? That she was 'declawed'?


To a large extent yes.  That series did ignore her earlier accomplishments and skills, and it changed her character in many respects.

But it unfortunately had to do that, because War Games overshadowed everything that she had ever done that was good and she had never been allowed to have any sort of redemption beforehand.  Then editorial mandate had Batman deliberately force her to repeat the same mistake at the end of the Robin series.

So there was no way to write her other than as starting fresh.  And her personality changed as well.  True-she lost the anger issues she had, but that was because she chose to lose it.  She started acknowledging her own failings and working on them instead of blaming everyone else, and the anger she felt towards everyone went away.  That's when she chose to 'represent hope' instead of just being another vigilante.

And it was after that change and that earning of respect that her past as Spoiler could begin to be treated with respect.  'I dated Robin.  For five minutes I was Robin.  That has to count for something.'  And 'I was trained by the actual most dangerous people in the world.'

If you look at her first fight in issue 1 she's actually a lot more brutal in how she fights, deliberately breaking a guy's leg.  She isn't fazed by a guy holding a gun at her, and she doesn't even look at him when throwing a batarang at him.  Then in a flashback to when she was still Spoiler she was shown being a mirror image of Cass.  Her fighting skills didn't improve-her style just changed and with the change in attitude people started noticing that she was actually pretty good.

----------


## Harpsikord

That blog post has some good points, but it also misses the entire point of Stephanie as Batgirl. Steph's turn as Batgirl was a leap of faith-- and the whole idea that she was 'RAGE, BURNING RAGE' is actually completely wrong. Yeah, she was all about the vengeance at first for a while, but up to the point that Stephanie became Batgirl, that hadn't defined her for a long, long time. She didn't become Robin because she was mad at her dad. She didn't continue into vigilantism after her dad was locked up because she was mad at her dad. She didn't become the Spoiler again because she was mad at her dad. No, indeed, she did all of that stuff to attempt to prove herself as a better hero; but the thing is, _because_ of the anger, she ended up screwing up. Part of that was Bruce's fault, but it was majorly on the shoulders of Steph. Batgirl was about taking her past and throwing it away, taking the anger and flushing it down the drain. It was about becoming a symbol of hope that the bat was supposed to be, and embracing it. And it took Steph a good bit to get there, but get there she did. It was gradual. It was development. BQM's Batgirl _redefines_ Stephanie Brown. It doesn't take everything that made her, well, her and throw it away. She always was the 'girl next door in the vigilante suit.' Also, all the points the blogger makes about Cass are kind of... irrelevant. And I could counter each and every one of them-- actually, you know what, I will.

Steph saying that Babs was the only one that didn't give up on her; this is true. From _Steph's_ point of view. Bruce died, and Cass left. Cass gave up on Gotham and Steph felt like she gave up on her. Boink that noise.

Steph "forgetting" about Cassandra. She didn't forget about her-- she didn't want to think about her supposed best friend that, as far as she knew, gave up on her.

Cass giving Steph the mantle. This was a retcon I didn't entirely enjoy, but I actually _got it._ Cass and Bruce both wanted Steph to be the best that they can be. So... what happened, happened.

Why does it matter that they didn't focus on the poverty thing? Her mom got over her drug issues and she had a cooshy hospital job. Steph's schooling was probably paid for by the Wayne foundation.

I don't recall it ever saying that she _became_ Spoiler to impress Tim? The did, however, stay as Spoiler to impress Robin.

They didn't 'declaw' or 'dexperience' Stephanie. In the slightest; she was actually one of the best members of the batfamily IN GENERAL during this book.

And, lastly, the Timsteph stuff. They both threw each other under the bus. They were both upset with one another. But you know what? During the Batgirl/Red Robin crossover, they _obviously still love the hell out of each other._ They were just mad.

So... yeah.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

So....at this point it looks like Eternal is going to end in a similar way to how the original Detective Comics origin story ended.  I don't see Steph having a problem being accepted this time around, though.

----------


## dropkickjake

Anyone know what the plans fir Steph are post eternal?

----------


## Punisher007

Well judging by the hints that they've been dropping about Eternal 2.0, I wouldn't be surprised if she played a role in that book.

----------


## Rod G

Didn't Stephanie's death (in War Games/War Crimes) drive a wedge between Batman and Leslie Thompkins?

(Yes, I'm aware THAT was retconned out,but still . . .)

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Didn't Stephanie's death (in War Games/War Crimes) drive a wedge between Batman and Leslie Thompkins?
> 
> (Yes, I'm aware THAT was retconned out,but still . . .)


It was first revealed that Steph died specifically because Leslie refused to administer the treatment that would have saved her.  Batman was naturally furious at her deliberately letting a teenager die and threatened to turn her over to the authorities if he ever saw her again.  When it turned out that Leslie had given her the life-saving treatment and faked her death to get her out of the country Batman's reason for being furious disappeared.




> Anyone know what the plans fir Steph are post eternal?


No.  There's a big question of where she's going to live.  Her mother was in on this city-destroying plot as well, so she'll either be in jail or on the run.  Being the daughter of the people who destroyed Gotham is also going to be a hell of a stigma to overcome. Someone in the bat-family is going to have to take her in.  I hope that she doesn't end up staying at Harper Row's place, but that seems the most likely answer.

----------


## Chickfighter

> There's a big question of where she's going to live.  Her mother was in on this city-destroying plot as well, so she'll either be in jail or on the run.  Being the daughter of the people who destroyed Gotham is also going to be a hell of a stigma to overcome. Someone in the bat-family is going to have to take her in.  I hope that she doesn't end up staying at Harper Row's place, but that seems the most likely answer.


Agreed. It seems like that is where this is going. Sadly I haven't warmed up to Harper Row. Maybe Steph could just get sent to college or Gotham Academy, whichever is appropriate. There was that blond girl living with Carrie Kelley in the Batman and Robin comic...

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Spoiler has a big role in Detective Comics Endgame.  Apparently Gotham's kids are already in awe of her.  And Batwoman has her on speed dial.  Seems she's established as part of the family.

----------


## joybeans

So Steph's showing up in Catwoman. I hope she gets a little payback on Black Mask.

----------


## Chickfighter

> So Steph's showing up in Catwoman. I hope she gets a little payback on Black Mask.


What issue? I might want to check it out.

----------


## AlexG.

> What issue? I might want to check it out.


Issue 42

CATWOMAN #42
Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
Art by DAVID MESSINA
Cover by KEVIN WADA
TEEN TITANS GO! Variant cover by BEN CALDWELL
On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
Retailers: This issue will arrive in stores with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Everything Selina Kyle accomplished as both crime boss and Catwoman is about to be ruined when Stephanie Brown makes a guest appearance!

----------


## joybeans

Catwoman #42. Valentine's whole run starting with #35 is really good and with checking out.

----------


## Chickfighter

Thanks, Alex G. and Joy Beans!

----------


## Cowtools

So, from the August solicits, it looks like Spoiler will be sticking around in Catwoman for a while. Which is fine by me because Valentine's Catwoman book is great, and I'm keen to see how she writes Steph.

----------


## AJpyro

Do i need to read anything of Batgirl before Bryan Q? I read the first couple of issues and liked where it was going.

----------


## t hedge coke

> Do i need to read anything of Batgirl before Bryan Q? I read the first couple of issues and liked where it was going.


That series should catch you up on everything you need to know. You can go back and read earlier Steph stuff (there are some good comics in there), but you don't have to.

----------


## AJpyro

> That series should catch you up on everything you need to know. You can go back and read earlier Steph stuff (there are some good comics in there), but you don't have to.


Thanks, I'm looking into collecting her and Cass in my future Bat collection.

----------


## zwixxx

Just noticed Steph is appearing in Catwoman #42. She was in Batman #28 and various issues of Eternal (got'm) but came here to ask if she's been in any other titles in the New52 ?

----------


## Harpsikord

> Just noticed Steph is appearing in Catwoman #42. She was in Batman #28 and various issues of Eternal (got'm) but came here to ask if she's been in any other titles in the New52 ?


Future's End: Batgirl #1, Catwoman #43, and the Endgame Detective Comics oneshot should be about it I believe?

----------


## zwixxx

tavmuch  :Smile: 

^got, might get & got (lying unread, bit behind in me reading.  :Embarrassment: )

A quick review of the Catwoman tpbs implies no7 will contain 41-46, so methinks I'll be following Cat for a bit with my fingers crossed that Stephanie stays around >2 issues (they'd better not kill her off, dammit  :Mad: )

----------


## Chickfighter

Yeppers, I guess I'll be taking a look at Catwoman. I always worry in these cases that Steph will simply be serving the purpose of helping put Selina over in some way like a jobbing wrestler. It is Catwoman's title after all. But after their interaction in Eternal this has the potential to grow naturally from that I suppose. Fingers crossed.

----------


## Vanguard-01

I've been staying away from Catwoman ever since she got into this "Mob queen" thing. Is that still going on?

But, if Steph's going to appear in it, I may make an exception, anyway. Steph needs all the support we can give her, after all. 

Personally, I hope that if Steph is going to appear in Catwoman, that there may be a chance of Steph and Selina developing at least something of a friendship. I always found it extremely irritating that later pre-Flashpoint writers basically threw out Steph's friendship with Selina. In War Games, Selina took Steph in, gave her tea, and seemed to genuinely care about her. Fast-forward a few years, and Steph is abandoning Selina in the middle of downtown Gotham while Selina is chained up in a shipping container, with the front of her jumpsuit unzipped. 

That was kinda crappy, to say the least. Maybe now, there's a chance of seeing that undone.

----------


## Frontier

> I've been staying away from Catwoman ever since she got into this "Mob queen" thing. Is that still going on?
> 
> But, if Steph's going to appear in it, I may make an exception, anyway. Steph needs all the support we can give her, after all. 
> 
> Personally, I hope that if Steph is going to appear in Catwoman, that there may be a chance of Steph and Selina developing at least something of a friendship. I always found it extremely irritating that later pre-Flashpoint writers basically threw out Steph's friendship with Selina. In War Games, Selina took Steph in, gave her tea, and seemed to genuinely care about her. Fast-forward a few years, and Steph is abandoning Selina in the middle of downtown Gotham while Selina is chained up in a shipping container, with the front of her jumpsuit unzipped. 
> 
> That was kinda crappy, to say the least. Maybe now, there's a chance of seeing that undone.


Where the heck did that happen!?

----------


## Vanguard-01

> Where the heck did that happen!?


The World's Finest mini from a few years back. I'm having trouble transferring the pages over here right now, but here's a link with pics of the incident.

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/World's_Finest_(3)

----------


## zwixxx

^eBayed it just now.  :Cool:

----------


## LostinFandom

> I've been staying away from Catwoman ever since she got into this "Mob queen" thing. Is that still going on?
> 
> But, if Steph's going to appear in it, I may make an exception, anyway. Steph needs all the support we can give her, after all. 
> 
> Personally, I hope that if Steph is going to appear in Catwoman, that there may be a chance of Steph and Selina developing at least something of a friendship. I always found it extremely irritating that later pre-Flashpoint writers basically threw out Steph's friendship with Selina. In War Games, Selina took Steph in, gave her tea, and seemed to genuinely care about her. Fast-forward a few years, and Steph is abandoning Selina in the middle of downtown Gotham while Selina is chained up in a shipping container, with the front of her jumpsuit unzipped. 
> 
> That was kinda crappy, to say the least. Maybe now, there's a chance of seeing that undone.


The Mob Queen thing is still going on, though now Selina is donning the Cat costume some more.  It plays less "Woman scorned" than the "Spoiler" issue of Batman would have suggested.  I don't know if this is because of different writers (Snyder and Tynion barely wrote any of her scenes in _Batman Eternal_ and Genevieve Valentine openly hadn't read any comics for over a decade before taking over _Catwoman_ and her first issues are weirdly disconnected from the continuity it's spun off of) or a course correction based on who readers immediately compared it to Morrison's interpretation of Talia and how Black Cat's ascent to crime boss in _The Amazing Spider-Man_ really leans into to the woman scorned thing. Either way, it's different than what I feared, but it still doesn't work for me.

That Worlds Finest scene you reference was pretty bad.  I don't think this story will do anything like it, but I can't say for sure.

----------


## gwhh

Convergence Batgirl

----------


## Vworp Vworp

http://avenk.deviantart.com/

----------


## NSV1231

The first appearance of Stephanie Brown

image.jpg

----------


## NSV1231

And the appearance of The Spoiler

Detective Comics #647

image.jpg

----------


## Celgress

> And the appearance of The Spoiler
> 
> Detective Comics #647
> 
> image.jpg


nice artwork, love the pose in panel one  :Cool:

----------


## NSV1231

Stephanie Brown will always rank in my top 5 favorite comic book characters. No mater how many times DC misuses or disrespects her.

----------


## dropkickjake

seriously. What is Bryan Q Miller doing with his life and why isnt the asnwer "Writing a Spoiler solo comic,"?

(Apparently writing tv shows, like defiance and dominion. Whatever. Thats not Steph.)

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> seriously. What is Bryan Q Miller doing with his life and why isnt the asnwer "Writing a Spoiler solo comic,"?
> 
> (Apparently writing tv shows, like defiance and dominion. Whatever. Thats not Steph.)


Then he's making a lot more money and has far more competent bosses, so good for him.

----------


## Chickfighter

Yeppers, there's probably not enough money available to drag him back to write that Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph comic I want to read.

----------


## dropkickjake

I will personally beg him. And fold all his clothes. I dont mean to brag, but i am pretty good...

----------


## millernumber1

Steph just got TWO issues this week - Batman and Robin Eternal #2 and Catwoman #45! She was hilarious and endearingly goofy (just like her original Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl self) in Eternal, and is facing some hard choices in Catwoman.

----------


## gwhh

Thanks for the tip!  

Batman and Robin Eternal #2.  Was a great read!!!




> Steph just got TWO issues this week - Batman and Robin Eternal #2 and Catwoman #45! She was hilarious and endearingly goofy (just like her original Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl self) in Eternal, and is facing some hard choices in Catwoman.

----------


## dropkickjake

I'm excited about her in the Batgirl title starting in November. I enjoy that book and think the creative team will get her well. I

also, re:BRE2- I'd love Seeley to write her regularly.

----------


## Chickfighter

> Steph just got TWO issues this week - Batman and Robin Eternal #2 and Catwoman #45! She was hilarious and endearingly goofy (just like her original Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl self) in Eternal, and is facing some hard choices in Catwoman.


Thanks for the heads up! I wasn't aware she was going to be in B&R Eternal. I'll pick it up!

----------


## sunofdarkchild

"Kiss me sexy Batman?"

WTF is with that dialogue?

----------


## gwhh

I think its pretty funny and definitely something she would say!

Where does she say kiss me sexy batman at?  I just saw where she said sexy batman at!  Which is even more cool in my opinion.

  









> "Kiss me sexy Batman?"
> 
> WTF is with that dialogue?

----------


## heyevaxx

Could the Steph fans give me some links so I can try to research a comprehensive, chronological read of Stephanie Brown?

I did this for Cass years ago and she appears a lot with Cass but I see I've missed a lot of Steph.

----------


## Aahz

> Could the Steph fans give me some links so I can try to research a comprehensive, chronological read of Stephanie Brown?
> 
> I did this for Cass years ago and she appears a lot with Cass but I see I've missed a lot of Steph.


With the help of google you can easily find following links:
http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology
http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Steph_as_Batgirl
http://www.dcuguide.com/chronology.php?name=spoiler

----------


## Thirteen

> Issue 42
> 
> CATWOMAN #42
> Written by GENEVIEVE VALENTINE
> Art by DAVID MESSINA
> Cover by KEVIN WADA
> TEEN TITANS GO! Variant cover by BEN CALDWELL
> On sale JULY 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T+
> Retailers: This issue will arrive in stores with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Everything Selina Kyle accomplished as both crime boss and Catwoman is about to be ruined when Stephanie Brown makes a guest appearance!



Some Steph with Catwoman Jr interiors from a later issue

----------


## Thirteen

Will Spoiler save the day in Catwoman #46???
http://www.avclub.com/article/exclus...ds-her--228130

----------


## Chickfighter

Or will it just be another lesson to Steph in the nigh impossibility of making a difference in other character's comics?  :Wink:

----------


## Chickfighter

So I got motivated to do some fan art today. Imagine Steph making Dick's life difficult.  :Wink: 

Reagent-of-Spoiler.jpg

http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/a...iler-572423643

----------


## WonderNight

man nice work! I would love if stephane and dick became partners :Cool:

----------


## Chickfighter

> man nice work! I would love if stephane and dick became partners


Thanks. It could make a great little mini I think.

----------


## Chickfighter

And here's a new Steph Fan art, mildly NSFW.

How can Batman not want to team with anyone this upfront and earnest about working hard?

http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/a...teph-573353969

----------


## WonderNight

> And here's a new Steph Fan art, mildly NSFW.
> 
> How can Batman not want to team with anyone this upfront and earnest about working hard?
> 
> http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/a...teph-573353969


I love it!

----------


## The Lucky One

FYI for Steph fans, along with this week's Batgirl #46, it looks like Steph will also be appearing in Batgirl #50 -- the cover features Babs and Steph, along with Black Canary(?), Bluebird, and, uh, unknown (sorry, I don't read _Batgirl_).

BG_Cv50-600x911.jpg

----------


## gwhh

A good article about there relationship and analysis of that relationship over the year:

http://arousinggrammar.com/2013/01/2...and-red-robin/

Cool Videos Here:

http://datab.us/Search/Popular%2BSte...DnRZfbMatfMQHE

I love seeing them fight in formal wear:

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...ird_series)_(8)

Cool Fan Art Of Them:

http://dc-couples.deviantart.com/art...sual-214330047

----------


## MidTierHero

Loved seeing Steph in action in Batgirl #46. Great issue.

----------


## lassomagicarescarte

Ugh! It looks like there won't be anymore Stephness until March with Batgirl #50 and Batman and Robin Eternal #26. Hopefully she'll continue to pop up in books though... so what I was wondering was, what other books would people like to see Steph costar in? I would kind of love a Grayson/Steph team up, or, as Steph in Batman Eternal was introduced as more deductive and journalistic, a Lois Lane/Steph team up or, (and this is the dream) for DC to test the waters with a Steph centric 8 week mini series, like Bizarro, Poison Ivy and Sugar and Spike are getting. I would buy the heck out of that.

----------


## K. Jones

It does seem like the Bat & Canary team of Fletcher & Co. are sort of building a new Birds of Prey, so I expect Steph'll play a role there. If the BOP line-up is the women on that Batgirl cover plus Cassandra Cain I think I'll be a pretty happy fan.

----------


## gwhh

Cool Fan Art Of Them:

http://colours07.deviantart.com/art/...on-4-435877694

----------


## Chickfighter

It's great to hear that Steph and Cass are to be part of rebirth from the beginning in the pages of Detective.

To celebrate here's some faux comic fan art of the sort of movie I'd like to see from DC sometime.  :Wink: 

http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/a...girl-600762841

----------


## heyevaxx

I'm so siked she's going to be monthly again! Actually, twice monthly! I can't wait!

I really want to see her relationship with Cass develop. Plus, twice now at the end of BRE and in Batgirl 50, Steph has expressed anxiety before a fight, given herself a pep talk, and then succeeded. I hope Kate has a sit down with Steph and they start to work on her confidence issue. I like that Steph is aware she's not Cass or Bats in a fight but I want her to be more confident.

Here are two great pics of Steph from DC (non-fanart, G-rated).

*Stephanie Brown's First Appearance from Detective Comics 647 1992-08early*


*Stephanie Brown The Spoiler by Dustin Nguyen from Batman Eternal TPB v1*

----------


## gwhh



----------


## Celgress

> 


oh snap lol

----------


## Chickfighter

Oh snap, Batman! Happy Friday the 13th everyone!

http://chickfighter.deviantart.com/a...13th-608678851

----------


## dominus

I have to admit that I've read comics in spurts. From the late 80s-early 90s until I had to "adult" for a while, and then in the mid-2000s when I found myself with free time in between relationships, and have started up recently again. Steph was one character that I liked seeing. Her spunkiness, bravery, and pure heart made her a perfect balance to the grimness of the rest of the bat-family. I stopped reading for years after War Games, the ending was like being punched in the gut. The writers decided to kill off another Robin and Tim was too well liked. Never given a fair chance by Batman, and used as comic relief by some of the writers (ie, getting knocked out by Cass a few times in Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive), it was depressing. Batman even seemed to be just as concerned about her heredity as he was Cassandra's, even though their upbringing/environment were completely different.

A few months ago I came across something that mentioned her return, and have started reading comics again, collecting all the TPBs and stories that she's been involved with. I'll admit, I got choked up at her "reveal" with Robin. Tim has(had) been becoming more and more like Bruce and I thought she'd be the one to bring him back into the light. Remember - it's Tim that pointed out how dark Batman was becoming without a Robin in Lonely Place of Dying. (One of the first crossovers that I didn't mind having to buy a "different" comic to follow.) Her run as Batgirl was enjoyable. Always in over her head, but able to overcome - Steph is the most *human* hero in the DCU. 

Now I'm starting with the "New 52" stories, and it's annoying to have to throw out a lot of the things I've read over the years. (I've been reading since the 80s, so I do remember some of the Earth 1 / Earth 2 stuff as it happened.) I'll admit that when they rebooted Jason Todd from his first iteration it was a positive. His first incarnation was simply a red headed Dick Grayson, and the Nocturna / Night Slayer storylines were just bad. Now they've rebooted Steph and given her the same back story she had before, just removing her accomplishments and history. Jason Bard as a vengeful commissioner? Have they done anything with Kaye Daye yet? I think the worst is Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. It started out okay, but all of a sudden she's morphed into a red-headed Steph. What's the point? Here's hoping DC figures things out soon. They've got lots of great characters and backstories to work with, rewriting all these characters just seems like a mistake to me.

----------


## adrikito

As with cassandra cain I investigate this character when I entering new52, spoiler, robin(black mask almost kill her), his disappearance, batgirl.. She was to appear in eternal batman in this moment.. then ..

I have to say is a happy girl and I like the character.. I could get some of his old books of batgirl.. And I followed she in all new52... 

I've seen how she started his training in the comics of catwoman.. and now, she is in a great team in detective comics.

----------


## berserkerclaw

Still not a fan of rebooted timeline. I do hope that in rebirth, that the missing ten years gets added back in one day

----------


## Lhynn

Just finished reading batman eternal and batman and robin eternal. They havent been kind to steph (nor to tim for that matter, they utterly destroyed that character)

And for the people saying batman and tim were mean for telling steph she couldnt become a hero. They were sort of right, she has awful judgement. I love the character, and i love that she fucks it up and how she tries to fix it and how she keeps moving forward, but shes done more harm than good.

And those saying pre 52 tim treated steph poorly, you gotta understand, theres a lot of water under that bridge, she betrayed tim when she became robin, and she knew full well she was betraying him. Shes constantly avoided him, shes shown time and time again that she wont listen to him, that she values the opinion of p. much anyone else over his, that she faked her death and scarred him for a long time. We are talking about pushing him into falling into ras al ghul hands to bring her back. She toyed with him and never actually told him she came back. And finally she didnt believe in him when he needed a friend the most, his father dead, his step mother dead, his step father and mentor dead, she was all he had.
They relationship was always sort of dysfunctional and i do believe it was better for the both of them to stay away from eachother, much as they love eachother. I like it when they get together and reminisce of the old days while patrolling, the dynamic between them has always been great, but they are an awful couple.

----------


## godisawesome

I think Cass and Steph both suffer from being forced into limbo by the New 52 still; the Bat books had to reintroduce them, when they honestly could probably have had the same "we were missing during the lost ten years" thing the Tiatns had. Editorial felt their existance (especially Steph's, for some reason) threaten the new Batgirl book, so all they've had is lackluster versions of their old origins.

Really, if editorial hadn't overreacted, we'd just be seeing Black Bat and Spoiler maturing further, not starting fer at Batfamily member square 1.

----------


## dominus

> And for the people saying batman and tim were mean for telling steph she couldnt become a hero. They were sort of right, she has awful judgement. I love the character, and i love that she fucks it up and how she tries to fix it and how she keeps moving forward, but shes done more harm than good.


The problem with this idea is that it's inconsistent. There were plenty of times they encouraged her, and a few times that Batman was setting her up to fail, especially in issue 37 of Gotham Knights. He was letting her "lead" the investigation knowing that she was making mistakes and never pointing them out. He'd never done that to Tim or Dick. Ever.

As for when she became Robin - Batman let her become Robin when Tim was forced to quit. Think back to Tim's first storyline - Batman needs a Robin. Then he fired her the first chance he got. (As per the writers.) There were plenty of times where Tim and Dick disobeyed orders to save Batman and they never got more than a mild rebuke.

Not to mention, Batman never trusted Steph because of who her father was.. regardless of the fact that it was her father that motivated her to become a "good guy".


batgirl_brucewayne.jpg

----------


## Lhynn

@dominus Yeah, you can blame it on writing or editorial if you want, but fact is, she started the wargames, her own attempt at "saving batman" ended up making things a lot worse for both of them too. It wasnt her skill, batman acknowledged her talent early on, it was her lack of common sense and good judgement that got her thrown out. She was consistently shown making the worst possible decisions with the best possible intentions, it was in her character. Impatient, reckless and with a very bad mindset to be a hero. Thats just how steph is, she got pregnant due to this. Tim knew this, he knows her better than she knows herself and has proven it and is the reason that he asked her to stop (let me remind you that this happened after she almost got him killed and allowed the whole thing to escalate to a point where Ulysses killed his own brothers). He was right to be pissed and he was right on his assessment.
She needed more than a trainer or a mentor, she needed a guide and until she became batgirl and was assisted by barbara she didnt have that. Neither tim nor bruce were willing to be that for her.
I found her character to be great, refreshing, authentic. And i found her flaws the best part of it.


@godisawesome who can blame them? she made a better batgirl than barbara ever did. Even new 52 batgirl/barbara isnt half as enjoyable or interesting. Tho she also helped babs grow as a character.

----------


## dominus

> @dominus Yeah, you can blame it on writing or editorial if you want, but fact is, she started the wargames, her own attempt at "saving batman" ended up making things a lot worse for both of them too. It wasnt her skill, batman acknowledged her talent early on, it was her lack of common sense and good judgement that got her thrown out. She was consistently shown making the worst possible decisions with the best possible intentions, it was in her character. Impatient, reckless and with a very bad mindset to be a hero.


But starting the War Games was her trying to impress Batman who had just fired her. Cause and effect. I think it was also pointed out (by Barbara?) that it was insane for Bruce to even have those plans. 




> Thats just how steph is, she got pregnant due to this.


Really? I'll leave this one alone.




> Tim knew this, he knows her better than she knows herself and has proven it and is the reason that he asked her to stop (let me remind you that this happened after she almost got him killed and allowed the whole thing to escalate to a point where Ulysses killed his own brothers). He was right to be pissed and he was right on his assessment.
> She needed more than a trainer or a mentor, she needed a guide and until she became batgirl and was assisted by barbara she didnt have that. Neither tim nor bruce were willing to be that for her.
> I found her character to be great, refreshing, authentic. And i found her flaws the best part of it.


She was under orders from Batman at that point, remember? She was still trying to impress him, even if he was a dick to her. Tim never called Bruce out for any of it.

----------


## Lhynn

> But starting the War Games was her trying to impress Batman who had just fired her. Cause and effect. I think it was also pointed out (by Barbara?) that it was insane for Bruce to even have those plans.


The plans were explained as nothing more than theoretical exercises. They were never supposed to be put into motion. This was kind of covered on tims 16th birthday, when he was tested by batman to see if he could take the detectivework to a new level. Exercises like that one were supposed to keep bruce thinking on a big scale. Also saying it was cause and effect is p. wrong. Steph isnt a force of nature, she was trusted with high level access to the stuff at the batcave and all she showed was that this was a huge mistake.




> She was under orders from Batman at that point, remember? She was still trying to impress him, even if he was a dick to her. Tim never called Bruce out for any of it.


Yeah, but she wasnt supposed to do this while Tim was almost drowned in other things as well (gang wars, Ulysses coming back, red hood coming back, etc). At that point it was just too much to handle. To her credit it did make him better, but it also almost killed him and it was the cause of other peoples deaths at the hand of the scarab assassin.
And batman was kind of dead by that point, so it was all on steph, picking the worst possible time for it.

----------


## dominus

> And batman was kind of dead by that point, so it was all on steph, picking the worst possible time for it.


She didn't "pick the time", that's exactly when she was ordered to do it.

Robin_spoiler_orders.jpg

----------


## Lhynn

> She didn't "pick the time", that's exactly when she was ordered to do it.
> 
> Robin_spoiler_orders.jpg


She kind of did. She could have tested him when the whole gang war and red robin/anarchy thing was over (batman never tested a robin in the middle of a fight with the joker, that would have been stupid, he always picked a time when not much was happening to avoid unpredictable and unnecessary risks). Besides, why is she betraying tim to obey batman? 
Everyone wanted to be accepted and praised by the bat, but she was obsessed with that, she took it too far too many times. Which goes back to her horrible judgement.
Also no need for scans, i reread the entire robin and red robin run a couple weeks ago so its all fresh in my mind.
Which also reminds me how she hid info from him on the batman RIP storyline. She has shown plenty of times she has no qualms about lying to him, betraying him, avoiding him, etc.

----------


## dominus

> She kind of did. She could have tested him when the whole gang war and red robin/anarchy thing was over (batman never tested a robin in the middle of a fight with the joker, that would have been stupid, he always picked a time when not much was happening to avoid unpredictable and unnecessary risks). Besides, why is she betraying tim to obey batman? 
> Everyone wanted to be accepted and praised by the bat, but she was obsessed with that, she took it too far too many times. Which goes back to her horrible judgement.
> Also no need for scans, i reread the entire robin and red robin run a couple weeks ago so its all fresh in my mind.
> Which also reminds me how she hid info from him on the batman RIP storyline. She has shown plenty of times she has no qualms about lying to him, betraying him, avoiding him, etc.


I'm adding scans because it doesn't seem fresh enough in your mind. From RIP:

The betrayal/order:

robin_spoiler_batman_RIP.jpg

As for the timing:

robin_spoiler_batman_RIP2.jpg


She put it into play when Tim told her Batman was missing. It makes sense that she follows the order at that point. What was she supposed to do? Wait and see if Tim found him first?


Think about it in real life. If your boss tells you to do something and *not* mention it to your co-workers, what do you do?

Edit - Perhaps it's easy enough for me to imagine because I have real life experience with that. One of my coworkers was under suspicion of stealing cash from the register. She was actually the person that got me the job, and we had been friends/coworkers for about 5 years at this point. I helped my boss move one of our cameras to get a good angle on the cash drawer and didn't tell the coworker about it. She got caught and fired. I'm still friends with her, but never told her that I was the one that helped catch her.

----------


## Lhynn

Its all about priorities, you picked yours.
Also she put innocent peoples lives on the line to follow a very vague order in the worst way possible at the worst possible time.

steph1.jpg
And i have to agree with him, as i said, she has very poor judgement.

----------


## dominus

> Its all about priorities, you picked yours.
> Also she put innocent peoples lives on the line to follow a very vague order in the worst way possible at the worst possible time.
> 
> And i have to agree with him, as i said, she has very poor judgement.


It comes down to loyalty. Should she be loyal to Tim, to the possibility of his detriment, or loyal to Batman, at the cost of her relationship with Tim?

I'm pretty sure Tim would choose to be loyal to Batman over Steph.

----------


## Lhynn

> It comes down to loyalty. Should she be loyal to Tim, to the possibility of his detriment, or loyal to Batman, at the cost of her relationship with Tim?


She should think before she acts. Its not about what she meant to do, its what she actually did. Its the reason she never got the job as robin, she couldnt make the cut, failed probation. 




> I'm pretty sure Tim would choose to be loyal to Batman over Steph.


Depends, hes said no to batman often, especially when it involves his personal life. Of all the batfamily hes (and maybe alfred) the only one that wasnt obsessed with him. Hes the only one that could see a life past the cape.
If it was a sacrifice for the greater good hed do it (even if it meant not being loyal to either bruce or steph). He would have picked a better time too.

----------


## dominus

> Depends, hes said no to batman often, especially when it involves his personal life. Of all the batfamily hes (and maybe alfred) the only one that wasnt obsessed with him. Hes the only one that could see a life past the cape.
> If it was a sacrifice for the greater good hed do it (even if it meant not being loyal to either bruce or steph). He would have picked a better time too.


Are you serious? The point in time we're discussing here (RIP/Missing/Return, whatever from the end of the Robin run and the Red Robin series) Tim was NOTHING BUT OBSESSED. If he wasn't obsessing over finding Bruce, he was obsessed with *becoming* Bruce. He was cutting all ties with friends/family and hiding in the cape the whole time.

----------


## Lhynn

Actually its explained at the start of red robin that tim simply knows bruce is alive, its implied that he sees something in wayne manor or the batcave that convinces him of this, he merely needs to find proof, like the knowning the answer to a problem without knowing the question. Which is why it goes around the world looking for them. Its never explained what that thing is tho, so im gonna call it lazy writing.
On the other hand bruce was all the family he had left, he lost both his fathers, both his mothers, both his best friends, his robin mantle, steph, and was in a very bad place in his life. At that precise point in his life he simply had nothing left. So he let his instinct guide him to what he felt as the right thing to do.
Wasnt an obsession, merely everything he had left to live for, because the world kicked his ass. And on top of that he had to deal with the fact that absolutely nobody believed him or believed in him. And that dickbat sent the people left alive that he cared about the most, and he saw this as dick turning them against him and them betraying him. 
As i said, the worst point in his life.
Ive seen him blow off batman to go on a date tho, and ive also seen him and bruce talk about a higher purpose, the real "boss" so to speak. Which is what drives Tim. 
He was ready and almost eager to give up his Robin mantle, and he was having a great life when he did. The only reason he came back was because its his calling, he had to save his friends. This made him understand that he is a hero, its his vocation. While everyone else seems to do this because they must, because its all they have, or because its all they enjoy, tim is the one that chose this life twice, because people needed him.
Sure, he likes getting batmans praise, everyone does. But hes lied to him or consciously done things he would not approve of because it was needed to get the job done. Always aware that could get him fired, but he did it because its what he felt he had to do. 

As an example, when steph went down to help (in the story that cost her the job) she went there to save batman because she wanted to impress him, disobeying his direct orders in the middle of the fight. She forgot to secure the ship, she went there in the middle of a battle between highly destructive mechs and made herself a target, she overestimated her abilities and made herself a hostage.
On the other hand, in his first adventure, before he was even robin Tims judgement was flawless, he asserted that batman didnt have enough information on his enemy and that this would probably lead him to his death. He made the call fully aware that it could cost him the mantle and he didnt care if it meant saving him. His actions were both smart and brave. He didnt overestimate his abilities and didnt put batman at any risk to do what needed to be done.

For Tim the most important thing about being robin is his duty to the people, to justice (he even considered leaving batman and working for Veteran if it was for the greater good). For steph the most important thing is hanging out with batman, having fun. Its a dream come true.
Im not even saying her character is bad, to me personally its great, i enjoy reading her because she is the way she is.

----------


## Harpsikord

Sooooooooo...

According to the CBR interview with Tynion, Steph _was_ Robin.

I'm ELATED.

----------


## twincast

> Sooooooooo...
> 
> According to the CBR interview with Tynion, Steph _was_ Robin.
> 
> I'm ELATED.


Just like Cass being a former Batgirl, that's only in the questions, not at all in the answers, so I'd be cautious about reading into it more than a reference to their real world publication histories.

----------


## Harpsikord

> Just like Cass being a former Batgirl, that's only in the questions, not at all in the answers, so I'd be cautious about reading into it more than a reference to their real world publication histories.


Well, with the history being restored - look at the preview for Wonder Woman, it isn't just Wally - I very much think those are legitimate story points.

Especially since the interviewer has read the book.

----------


## twincast

> Well, with the history being restored - look at the preview for Wonder Woman, it isn't just Wally - I very much think those are legitimate story points.
> 
> Especially since the interviewer has read the book.


It's certainly possible, sure, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

> Just like Cass being a former Batgirl, that's only in the questions, not at all in the answers, so I'd be cautious about reading into it more than a reference to their real world publication histories.


Yeah, I read it as purely the interviewer mentioning an aspect of her original past simply as a point of reference to a question.  There's been nothing to suggest that Steph's history has been restored in the book itself.  And, to be honest, I couldn't care less about Steph's time as Robin anyway (Particularly given everything that came with it).  Now, Steph (and Cass's) *Batgirl* history, that would be worth shouting about... and given that the the BoP solicits suggest Babs is getting her Oracle history back, it seems only fair that Steph and Cass have their history recognised too.

But when have DC ever treated Steph or Cass especially fairly?

----------


## twincast

> There's been nothing to suggest that Steph's history has been restored in the book itself.


And as I (rather shamefully) only just remembered myself, don't forget that the events of DC Universe Rebirth #1 itself didn't bring any memories or years back to the DCU other than Barry remembering an altered version of Wally's life.

So far Rebirth is only bringing back old concepts while still fitting into New 52 history. The return of (much? most?) pre-Flashpoint stuff will happen over the next two years, starting with Flash and Titans.

----------


## Lhynn

Im hopeful for this.

----------


## Harpsikord

> And as I (rather shamefully) only just remembered myself, don't forget that the events of DC Universe Rebirth #1 itself didn't bring any memories or years back to the DCU other than Barry remembering an altered version of Wally's life.
> 
> So far Rebirth is only bringing back old concepts while still fitting into New 52 history. The return of (much? most?) pre-Flashpoint stuff will happen over the next two years, starting with Flash and Titans.


I mean.

The preview of Wonder Woman has _her_ remembering two different conflicting sets of memories.

So it's not just Wally.

----------


## twincast

> I mean.
> 
> The preview of Wonder Woman has _her_ remembering two different conflicting sets of memories.
> 
> So it's not just Wally.


She's supernatural, though. That said, we do know that Jay's getting back (a variation of) his post-CoIE origin, and so far there's no indication of another moment begetting this, so you do have a point. Either way, Steph and Cass are clearly presented as still new to the superhero life in the actual comic, and nothing points to them having had any other superhero aliases.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

Interesting. Steph now has hacker abilities.

----------


## Harpsikord

> Interesting. Steph now has hacker abilities.


Indeed, and it's implied that she's a genius because both of her parents are/were.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

At least it means that there can't be a repeat of the circumstances that led to War Games (although that also involved her doing some hacking that should have been impossible)

----------


## Lhynn

> Interesting. Steph now has hacker abilities.


Kinda goes against her whole persona. Shes always been a people person. More confortable interacting with others face to face than spending her time behind a computer screen learning to code.
Even her depiction in batman eternal as a forum dweller was really odd.

----------


## Dataweaver

Ten years were stolen.

Sadly, those ten years include Stephanie's time as Robin, her walkabout in Africa(?), and her time as Batgirl.  They also include nearly all of the character growth she went through pre-Flashpoint; she's once again the brash, impulsive, and reckless girl she was back when Chuck Dixon first created her.  Stephanie is back in her formative days when she had a lot of lessons to learn.  

But those ten years _also_ include nearly all of the times Barman told her that she wasn't good enough and ordered her to hang up the cape.  They include all of War Games and Batman RIP, and in general the stories where she was mistreated.  Stephanie is back in her formative days before she got screwed over so badly.  

Going forward, we're getting a second chance to watch Stephanie grow up; this time hopefully without the abuse heaped upon her by the writers.  There never will be a War Games in the post-Eternal timeline, both because she has Batman's respect (paraphrasing from the latest issue of 'Tec, I underestimated her once; never again) and because I don't see the current crop of writers ever having her think that it would be a good idea to start a gang war: poor judgment, yes, on occasion; monumental stupidity?  I don't think so.  _Especially_ not with Batwoman as her drill sergeant.  

I can see Stephanie eventually getting back to where she was just before the Flashpoint, and this time around _without_ the massive missteps that knocked her out of publication for years.  The loss of her time as Robin and Batgirl is lamentable, but it's also an acceptable price to pay to extract her from the Women in fridges list.

----------


## Dataweaver

Oh, and as for her supposed hacking skills: all we've heard is that she locked Tim out of his computer sometime in the past, and is confident she can do so again — or at least has enough bluster to threaten it.  You know what it takes to lock someone out of his computer?  Figuring out his password, and changing it.  Ooh; mad hacking skills, there!   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Oh, and as for her supposed hacking skills: all we've heard is that she locked Tim out of his computer sometime in the past, and is confident she can do so again — or at least has enough bluster to threaten it.  You know what it takes to lock someone out of his computer?  Figuring out his password, and changing it.  Ooh; mad hacking skills, there!


But that would make Tim himself seem like an amateur for having such a weak password :P

----------


## Dataweaver

Steph's a people person; and I could definitely see that being leveraged into her getting to know Tim well enough to guess what he'd use as a password. That is, I don't see “I locked Tim out of his computer” as an indication of Stephanie's computer skills; I see it as an indication of her social skills and her familiarity with Tim. I doubt she could pull it off with anyone else, just as I doubt Tim's firewall is vulnerable to anyone else. Heck, for all her bluster, I doubt she could do it again.

----------


## Lhynn

> But that would make Tim himself seem like an amateur for having such a weak password :P


Or even using passwords at all, they are a huge security liability.

----------


## Potanical Pardon

> Steph's a people person; and I could definitely see that being leveraged into her getting to know Tim well enough to guess what he'd use as a password. That is, I don't see “I locked Tim out of his computer” as an indication of Stephanie's computer skills; I see it as an indication of her social skills and her familiarity with Tim. I doubt she could pull it off with anyone else, just as I doubt Tim's firewall is vulnerable to anyone else. Heck, for all her bluster, I doubt she could do it again.


And what is hacking if not really hacking people? 95% of hacking involves human-to-human interaction.

----------


## Lhynn

> And what is hacking if not really hacking people? 95% of hacking involves human-to-human interaction.


Social engineering instead of bruteforcing your access into the system? yeah i guess, but thats not something you could actually pull off twice if the other person is aware of it.

----------


## Cowtools

Maybe Steph's 'hacking' ability is related to her time supposedly blogging about spoilers and such? Maybe she spent her spare time hacking into movie and video game databases to get spoilers or whatnot. I dunno, they never really established what her blog did in Eternal.

----------


## Lhynn

> Maybe Steph's 'hacking' ability is related to her time supposedly blogging about spoilers and such? Maybe she spent her spare time hacking into movie and video game databases to get spoilers or whatnot. I dunno, they never really established what her blog did in Eternal.


Somehow i dont see jeremy jahns hacking one of the most secure networks in the world just because he has experience torrenting leaked footage of the latest marvel movie.

Its a pretty stupid plot point, or potentially interesting depending on the answer, if we ever get one.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Social engineering instead of bruteforcing your access into the system? yeah i guess, but thats not something you could actually pull off twice if the other person is aware of it.


Agreed.  Doesn't mean she can't threaten to do it again, though.  Really, that's the heart of the exchange: Tim talks down to her; she retorts with some get-off-your-high-horse snark.  As I see it, locking him out of his system again is a hollow threat; but it serves to remind him that he's underestimated her before.

----------


## dominus

> Oh, and as for her supposed hacking skills: all we've heard is that she locked Tim out of his computer sometime in the past, and is confident she can do so again  or at least has enough bluster to threaten it.  You know what it takes to lock someone out of his computer?  Figuring out his password, and changing it.  Ooh; mad hacking skills, there!





> But that would make Tim himself seem like an amateur for having such a weak password :P


Damian guessed his password in the Red Robin run.



Top-7.jpg

----------


## Harpsikord

> Steph's a people person; and I could definitely see that being leveraged into her getting to know Tim well enough to guess what he'd use as a password. That is, I don't see “I locked Tim out of his computer” as an indication of Stephanie's computer skills; I see it as an indication of her social skills and her familiarity with Tim. I doubt she could pull it off with anyone else, just as I doubt Tim's firewall is vulnerable to anyone else. Heck, for all her bluster, I doubt she could do it again.


This is way possible. Tim and Steph have gotten at least somewhat close; he's told her things that he's told no one else as judging by this issue can show us, and the writer said that he wrote them together very very deliberately. I'd say they're close to rekindling their spark, if they haven't done it already.

I hope they haven't if only because it'd be great to see it on panel.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Steph didn't just lock Tim out of his computer.  She also hacked into the crooks' phones to find out their plan.  

I was surprised just how ubercompetent and smart Steph has been since she was first brought back in Eternal.  She figured out how to track Batman's movements by studying reported sightings of him and finding the patterns, and she figured out enough of her father's plans (well beyond what she heard at the initial meeting) that he went from being completely disappointed in her to thinking of her as an intellectual equal.

Even still it seems like the Tim/Steph scene was originally written with Harper in mind instead of Steph.  But if Steph is making Harper even more redundant I'm not going to complain.  If there's one character the batbooks need to trim its Harper.

----------


## godisawesome

I do like how her new abilities and MO are built around her "spoiling" her opponent's plans. Pre-Flashpoint, the Spoiler moniker wound becoming more of a holdover and didn't really define the character. The idea of her now being the counter-intelligence agent of the team actually really works.

----------


## Stormcrow

Anyone knows what's the deal with Steph's mom nowadays? Last I remember seeing her was during Batman Eternal, with them sort of reconciling (after her mom ratted her out to Cluemaster) before Steph was taken by Catwoman.

I was always interested in their relationship pre-New 52, really hope that it doesn't get lost for good. Was it her that Tynion referred to when Batman said Steph had been raised by "two certifiable geniuses" on his first 'Tec issue? Where did that come from?

----------


## somacula

HI ppl, I'm Somacula, no exactly new to batman in general but a fan of cass, steph and tim. I didn't took any new 52 because they got the shaft in it, but now that they're coming back so am I. o you have any recommended reading list of Steph as batgirl and spoiler?

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> HI ppl, I'm Somacula, no exactly new to batman in general but a fan of cass, steph and tim. I didn't took any new 52 because they got the shaft in it, but now that they're coming back so am I. o you have any recommended reading list of Steph as batgirl and spoiler?


There's no Nu52 story with Steph as Batgirl, however Convergence Batgirl is about Steph from the Pre-FP timeline as Batgirl.  She also appears as a Batgirl in Batgirl:Futures End.

Steph came back to the Nu52 in Batman Eternal, where she was an important character.  She is not in every issue of that series, but her origin and foundation in the Nu52 is here.

She next appeared in the Detective Comics tie-in for Endgame, but it didn't further her story.

The next step in Steph's story took place in Catwoman issues 42-46.  Directly afterwards she started appearing in Batgirl (though not as the title character) from issue 46-52.

Steph also appeared in Batman and Robin Eternal in issues 1-4 and 23-26, but she was only a minor side-character there to make Harper look good.

----------


## Lhynn

Batman eternal was infuriating if you are a fan of steph.

----------


## somacula

> Batman eternal was infuriating if you are a fan of steph.


Yeah I've heard, some mary sue nobody named harper something took the spotlight, hopefully she'll never ever show up again.

----------


## Caivu

> Yeah I've heard, some mary sue nobody named harper something took the spotlight, hopefully she'll never ever show up again.


She's going to eventually. Maybe as soon as the second arc of 'Tec, but hopefully more toned down.

----------


## Caivu

So, I haven't seen this brought up here yet:

Based on the latest solicits for 'Tec (including the cover) and the confirmation that the second arc of 'Tec will focus on Spoiler, it seems very likely that she will kill someone in 'Tec #940. Not on purpose, or at least not without a reason, but it seems to be that way. 

Now, yes, this isn't guaranteed, but if it does happen it could make for a pretty great piece of character development, dark as it is. What would be the ideal situation for this to occur, and how would the aftermath go, just based on what we know now?

----------


## somacula

> So, I haven't seen this brought up here yet:
> 
> Based on the latest solicits for 'Tec (including the cover) and the confirmation that the second arc of 'Tec will focus on Spoiler, it seems very likely that she will kill someone in 'Tec #940. Not on purpose, or at least not without a reason, but it seems to be that way. 
> 
> Now, yes, this isn't guaranteed, but if it does happen it could make for a pretty great piece of character development, dark as it is. What would be the ideal situation for this to occur, and how would the aftermath go, just based on what we know now?


Hopefully it'll go this way:
-Batman probably wants to kick her because "muh no kill rule"
-Batwoman may agree with him
-Tim and Cass stand up for her because they're friends and it'll end up in more development for them and they support her all the way through.
-Maybe Tim is thinking about leaving and offers Steph the chance to escape together?
-Cass does exactly the same as above (I think steph cass have more chemistry than tim cass)

----------


## Frontier

I think the teams (and especially Batman and Batwoman) reactions would depend on the context of the "kill" and how much of it was in self-defense, unavoidable, or intentional on Steph's part. 

I'm now reminded of her thing in the Valentine Catwoman run where she thought she had killed that PI who was trying to uncover the identities of the Batfamily, which might have partially explained her aggressiveness during that run, only for it to turn out she just knocked him out.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Yeah I've heard, some mary sue nobody named harper something took the spotlight, hopefully she'll never ever show up again.


That happened in Batman and Robin Eternal, which ended up being more about Harper than any of the Robins.  It looked like they were giving Harper Steph's old relationship with Cass, and Steph's role amounted 'person who seems reasonable but is wrong so that Harper can be right.'

In the first Eternal Steph was more important than Harper and other than the scenes where the two of them interacted Steph's parts were great.  The scenes where she's interacting with Harper are a definite step down, but the majority of the time they aren't in the same place.

----------


## Dataweaver

Ah, yes; this brings back memories. There was a time when _Stephanie_ was seen as the interloper and Mary Sue. That's what lead to War Games.

----------


## NSV1231

image.jpg Stephane and Tim back together

----------


## Lhynn

> In the first Eternal Steph was more important than Harper


No she wasnt, steph was there to waste everyones time, as other than her character being introduced and giving her a new power of making super hero uniforms out of thin air her relevance in the story was 0. She spent the entire time going from place to place with the answer to everything and the entire run ended and she had done nothing with the knowledge to alter the result even slightly. I was so disapointed when we got to the final issue and she had yet to be actually useful.

@Dataweaver never saw steph as a mary sue, tho she did betray and abandon tim to go after her dream. She didnt deserve what happened to her, but she was awful to the guy that had been for her for everything since they met.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Attachment 37309 Stephane and Tim back together


are they allowed to have sex now? Tim is 18

----------


## somacula

> Ah, yes; this brings back memories. There was a time when _Stephanie_ *was seen as the interloper and Mary Sue*. That's what lead to War Games.


I'm sure Steph was not a good fighter like cass, not a good hacker like oracle, not as smart as tim. She is a fun every girl




> are they allowed to have sex now? Tim is 18


It's gotham. what's bat gonna do? Send 'em to arkham?

----------


## Rac7d*

> No she wasnt, steph was there to waste everyones time, as other than her character being introduced and giving her a new power of making super hero uniforms out of thin air her relevance in the story was 0. She spent the entire time going from place to place with the answer to everything and the entire run ended and she had done nothing with the knowledge to alter the result even slightly. I was so disapointed when we got to the final issue and she had yet to be actually useful.
> 
> @Dataweaver never saw steph as a mary sue, tho she did betray and abandon tim to go after her dream. She didnt deserve what happened to her, but she was awful to the guy that had been for her for everything since they met.


But she looked danm good  through out itand got this iconic piece

----------


## Dataweaver

> I'm sure Steph was not a good fighter like cass, not a good hacker like oracle, not as smart as tim. She is a fun every girl





> never saw steph as a mary sue, tho she did betray and abandon tim to go after her dream. She didnt deserve what happened to her, but she was awful to the guy that had been for her for everything since they met.


I'm not saying that she _was_ a Mary Sue; only that many saw her that way, and frankly cheered when she was killed off in War Games.  The moral of the story being that you should think twice before declaring a character to be a Mary Sue and wishing ill on her.  

I'm sure Harper Row could work quite well in 'Tec, provided that she's handled properly and finds her own niché.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ah, yes; this brings back memories. There was a time when _Stephanie_ was seen as the interloper and Mary Sue. That's what lead to War Games.


That's surprising. From what I can tell she was one of the weaker, less intelligent characters in the Bat-Books throughout the 90s. That equals a Mary Sue somehow? It's almost ironic that Steph was given that label years ago, and now we've got Harper Row who's extremely derivative of Steph and is the ultimate example of a bad Mary Sue character. It's like they're sending the message to those 90s fans "You think Steph is an obnoxious Mary Sue, you haven't seen nothing yet!"

----------


## Punisher007

> are they allowed to have sex now? Tim is 18


Lots of teenagers have sex. No use pretending like it doesn't happen.  And really, this kind of feels like a natural progression of their pre-New 52 relationship anyway (and Tynion IV seems to be using Rebirth as a sort of kind of "reboot" for these characters, without actually fully rebooting).

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> No she wasnt, steph was there to waste everyones time, as other than her character being introduced and giving her a new power of making super hero uniforms out of thin air her relevance in the story was 0. She spent the entire time going from place to place with the answer to everything and the entire run ended and she had done nothing with the knowledge to alter the result even slightly. I was so disapointed when we got to the final issue and she had yet to be actually useful.
> 
> @Dataweaver never saw steph as a mary sue, tho she did betray and abandon tim to go after her dream. She didnt deserve what happened to her, but she was awful to the guy that had been for her for everything since they met.


Harper's contribution to Eternal was to deal with the Mad Hatter subplot.  The fact is that the whole cast treated Steph like she was the key to everything.  Cluemaster and his benefactor put a huge bounty on her head that attracted many other criminals to go after her specifically.  Hush, while we were supposed to still think he was the big bad, made a point of going after her himself in the open.  Catwoman and Batman both determined that she was the key to everything.  She then brought all of her info to Vicki Vale, who published that story in the epilogue.

Steph also was meant to be representative of the regular Gothamite rising up to take back his city instead of just relying on a single vigilante and a corrupt police force.  That's why it had to be her yelling 'I'm Batman' in the final issue.

You may not like how it played out, but in no way was a character who went through a journey from 100% civilian to full fledged vigilante, fought and put the big bad in jail halfway through, was treated as the most important person by the main hero, the main villains, and the antihero on the sidelines (Catwoman), and was the one who pulled the 'big damn hero' save at the end to save the main hero, anything less than more important than a character whose whole journey was resolved in a sideplot about 10 issues before the end and who spent most of the time just annoying Tim Drake.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> That's surprising. From what I can tell she was one of the weaker, less intelligent characters in the Bat-Books throughout the 90s. That equals a Mary Sue somehow? It's almost ironic that Steph was given that label years ago, and now we've got Harper Row who's extremely derivative of Steph and is the ultimate example of a bad Mary Sue character. It's like they're sending the message to those 90s fans "You think Steph is an obnoxious Mary Sue, you haven't seen nothing yet!"


I'm pretty sure the idea of Steph as a Mary Sue was only invented in response to people accusing Harper of being one.  They always made a point that she wasn't as skilled as the others, had a ton of personal issues, and was constantly told to quit by the whole cast.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm sure Harper Row could work quite well in 'Tec, provided that she's handled properly and finds her own niché.


I genuinely want to see a scene where Batwoman, knowing that Harper's good with electric stuff, asks her to see if she can improve her taser gloves, and Harper starts fangirling a bit. Or a least makes some kind of reference back to Eternal #52.

----------


## Atlanta96

> I'm pretty sure the idea of Steph as a Mary Sue was only invented in response to people accusing Harper of being one.  They always made a point that she wasn't as skilled as the others, had a ton of personal issues, and was constantly told to quit by the whole cast.


Or maybe people who didn't like Steph applied the Mary Sue label just to make her look bad. Again, not knowing how much worse a character she could have been. A new character who doesn't make established ones look incompetent by comparison is a relief nowadays.

----------


## darkseidpwns

When will people learn, power or skills HAVE NOTHING to do with Sues.

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## Punisher007

They do actually.  But it's only PART of a bigger hole, which is where many people get it wrong.  Steph being a Mary Sue would be if she were the best (or at least one of the best) fighters, and a brilliant detective, and an expert tech person, and a natural born leader (or she picked up these skills extremely quickly), and everyone loved her and was constantly talking up how awesome she was, and she had no real character flaws to speak of and rarely if ever messed up, etc.  THAT'S a Mary Sue.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> They do actually.  But it's only PART of a bigger hole, which is where many people get it wrong.  Steph being a Mary Sue would be if she were the best (or at least one of the best) fighters, and a brilliant detective, and an expert tech person, and a natural born leader (or she picked up these skills extremely quickly), and everyone loved her and was constantly talking up how awesome she was, and she had no real character flaws to speak of and rarely if ever messed up, etc.  THAT'S a Mary Sue.


It depends on the character, Felicity Smoak cant kick anyone's ass and yet she's a Sue. Sue just refers to a state of idealization, I dont think Steph is one though.

----------


## Lhynn

> You may not like how it played out, but in no way was a character who went through a journey from 100% civilian to full fledged vigilante, fought and put the big bad in jail halfway through, was treated as the most important person by the main hero, the main villains, and the antihero on the sidelines (Catwoman), and was the one who pulled the 'big damn hero' save at the end to save the main hero, anything less than more important than a character whose whole journey was resolved in a sideplot about 10 issues before the end and who spent most of the time just annoying Tim Drake.


You just used a ton of words to describe what i said in a sentence "she was introduced as a character". That is all the book did, all she knew, her run and the threats she faced to tell what she knew to batman never played out. She had literally one mission, one thing that could have made a difference and she never got to do it, the big bad still got to execute his plan without any hitches. If that isnt a bloody waste of time i dont know what is.
What she pulled at the end? everyone was there at the end, if it wasnt her it would have been someone else, it fell right into the category of "who cares?". It was an awful way to introduce the character, not that i was surprised tho, new 52 did that to many others.

She should have been introduced in a different book where we got to see her actually influence the story, or even be the center of it.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> You just used a ton of words to describe what i said in a sentence "she was introduced as a character". That is all the book did, all she knew, her run and the threats she faced to tell what she knew to batman never played out. She had literally one mission, one thing that could have made a difference and she never got to do it, the big bad still got to execute his plan without any hitches. If that isnt a bloody waste of time i dont know what is.
> What she pulled at the end? everyone was there at the end, if it wasnt her it would have been someone else, it fell right into the category of "who cares?". It was an awful way to introduce the character, not that i was surprised tho, new 52 did that to many others.
> 
> She should have been introduced in a different book where we got to see her actually influence the story, or even be the center of it.


I'm not going to argue that point.  You don't like the way she was featured, fine.  Even if you are 100% right about everything, how is Steph still not more important than Harper 'I beat a side-quest!' Row in Batman Eternal?

----------


## Lhynn

> How is Steph still not more important than Harper 'I beat a side-quest!' Row in Batman Eternal?


Beating a couple supervillians and rescuing half the batfamily is arguably more important than steph running around with a key to a door that never opens. Absolutely no point in the key even existing in the first place, it changed nothing, it did nothing and introducing a character in such a frustrating way is bad. She deserved better and the reader deserved better.

----------


## Aahz

> Ah, yes; this brings back memories. There was a time when _Stephanie_ was seen as the interloper and Mary Sue.


The only thing that you could see as "Mary Sue" like is, that she was usually written as a fighter roughly equal to Tim, even if she had initially no real training apart from gymnastics at school (iirc the first time she got training was after Nomans Land).

----------


## millernumber1

So, anyone have any thoughts on Steph's upcoming arc in Tec? I'm hoping it deals with the fallout from her becoming a hero when both her parents betrayed her. And also maybe with her growing relationship with Cass (though Harper is schedulled to show up, apparently).

----------


## millernumber1

So, the preview for Tec #939 has a really sweet TimSteph moment. I really hope he doesn't die, but it's looking more and more like at least part of her plot for The Victim Syndicate will be mourning him  :Frown:

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## Caivu

> So, anyone have any thoughts on Steph's upcoming arc in Tec?


I see it going like this:

Tim dies and Steph ends up accidentally killing Jacob somehow at the end of RotB. The team manages to hold things together through NotMM, but ultimately the rifts essentially fracture them. Steph heads off solo and avoids the others while mourning Tim. At some point she meets up with Harper, and the two discover the Victim Syndicate, a group of Gothamites who are angry and fed up with the most recent invasion in the city, and start an uprising of sorts. The two of them become targets, and Batman, Batwoman, Cass, and Clayface have to locate them before the Syndicate gets ahold of Steph and Harper, possibly to torture them for info about Batman and his allies. The girls, meanwhile, battle the Syndicate on their own. The final battle against the Syndicate will have a moment where Kate forgives Steph.

That's a pretty bare-bones layout, though. We'll just have to wait and see, obviously.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

What I'm interested in is if we're going to see some Steph and Damian friendship building again. I really enjoyed those two together. Oh please don't make her into a victim yet again. War games was enough with that.

----------


## millernumber1

> I see it going like this:
> 
> Tim dies and Steph ends up accidentally killing Jacob somehow at the end of RotB. The team manages to hold things together through NotMM, but ultimately the rifts essentially fracture them. Steph heads off solo and avoids the others while mourning Tim. At some point she meets up with Harper, and the two discover the Victim Syndicate, a group of Gothamites who are angry and fed up with the most recent invasion in the city, and start an uprising of sorts. The two of them become targets, and Batman, Batwoman, Cass, and Clayface have to locate them before the Syndicate gets ahold of Steph and Harper, possibly to torture them for info about Batman and his allies. The girls, meanwhile, battle the Syndicate on their own. The final battle against the Syndicate will have a moment where Kate forgives Steph.
> 
> That's a pretty bare-bones layout, though. We'll just have to wait and see, obviously.


I really, really doubt they'll have Steph kill Jacob. I see the logic - Steph is all sad about a Colony soldier on the cover of 940 - but having Bat-family members (even junior ones) actually kill someone is a massive, huge deal (see also: Batgirl and her brother's storyline in Simone's run, Cass and Harper's mom in Batman and Robin Eternal), and I don't think that would really happen on Tynion's watch, especially given the way the story's been going. Plus, having Steph have that kind of action in a very Tim and Kate-heavy arc, even if it's setup for a Steph-heavy arc, seems really unbalanced.




> What I'm interested in is if we're going to see some Steph and Damian friendship building again. I really enjoyed those two together. Oh please don't make her into a victim yet again. War games was enough with that.


Yes, please no Steph tortured again. Once was more than enough. But I totally agree - Seeing Steph and Damian would be ace. I just don't think it'll happen, since Damian is probably not going to be in Gotham that much, with Teen Titans and Super Sons (whenever that eventually shows up).  :Smile:   But it seems like the universe feels the lack of Damian/Stephanie interaction, since it replaced her with Duke in Robin War and Maya in Robin Son of Batman. Neither are quite as good as our girl, but they gave it their best shot!  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

> I really, really doubt they'll have Steph kill Jacob. I see the logic - Steph is all sad about a Colony soldier on the cover of 940 - but having Bat-family members (even junior ones) actually kill someone is a massive, huge deal (see also: Batgirl and her brother's storyline in Simone's run, Cass and Harper's mom in Batman and Robin Eternal), and I don't think that would really happen on Tynion's watch, especially given the way the story's been going. Plus, having Steph have that kind of action in a very Tim and Kate-heavy arc, even if it's setup for a Steph-heavy arc, seems really unbalanced.)


It _would_ be out there and a huge deal, I agree. That's why if it happens, it would _have_ to be completely, 100% accidental (or at least, it appears that way to the rest of the team). That's the only way she could recover from it. You make a good point about the big focus shift this would cause, though.

----------


## adrikito

> I see it going like this:
> 
> Tim dies and Steph ends up accidentally killing Jacob somehow at the end of RotB. The team manages to hold things together through NotMM, but ultimately the rifts essentially fracture them. Steph heads off solo and avoids the others while mourning Tim. At some point she meets up with Harper, and the two discover the Victim Syndicate, a group of Gothamites who are angry and fed up with the most recent invasion in the city, and start an uprising of sorts. The two of them become targets, and Batman, Batwoman, Cass, and Clayface have to locate them before the Syndicate gets ahold of Steph and Harper, possibly to torture them for info about Batman and his allies. The girls, meanwhile, battle the Syndicate on their own. The final battle against the Syndicate will have a moment where Kate forgives Steph.
> 
> That's a pretty bare-bones layout, though. We'll just have to wait and see, obviously.


I do not like Jacob but... I do not want that for Steph.. the poor girl  appears crying in the last cover of RISE OF BATMEN

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I really, really doubt they'll have Steph kill Jacob. I see the logic - Steph is all sad about a Colony soldier on the cover of 940 - but having Bat-family members (even junior ones) actually kill someone is a massive, huge deal (see also: Batgirl and her brother's storyline in Simone's run, Cass and Harper's mom in Batman and Robin Eternal), and I don't think that would really happen on Tynion's watch, especially given the way the story's been going. Plus, having Steph have that kind of action in a very Tim and Kate-heavy arc, even if it's setup for a Steph-heavy arc, seems really unbalanced.


Agreed. Tyrion seems to want to build up the group giving each their special moves. You're right this is very heavy for Tim and Kate and I would think they would avoid killing off one of the two main ones. Steph could though get her own arch, and while I see her working with Harper in her own way, I would actually like her working with Clayface. If anyone can get to him it would be Steph due to her personality and being able to look beyond the whole muck monster. And yes it's a huge factor in the bat family. It was one of the reasons that Helena wasn't allowed in at first, because she killed people. Same for Azreal, he only got the batsuit at the time due to circumstances, and as you pointed out the whole thing about Jim Jr. and lest we forget Damian's beheading of Nobody, and then the whole thing with Jason. I don't think they're going to flow in that way, if anything we get wrap up then we go into Steph, although didn't she just get a big arc in Eternal? 






> Yes, please no Steph tortured again. Once was more than enough. But I totally agree - Seeing Steph and Damian would be ace. I just don't think it'll happen, since Damian is probably not going to be in Gotham that much, with Teen Titans and Super Sons (whenever that eventually shows up).   But it seems like the universe feels the lack of Damian/Stephanie interaction, since it replaced her with Duke in Robin War and Maya in Robin Son of Batman. Neither are quite as good as our girl, but they gave it their best shot!


Damian and Steph working together again would be amazing. Maya and Duke are cool in their own way but you're right neither quite hits the spot the way Steph did with Damian. I kind of hope we can eventually have a spoiler and Robin book just to get that interaction back.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Agreed. Tyrion seems to want to build up the group giving each their special moves. You're right this is very heavy for Tim and Kate and I would think they would avoid killing off one of the two main ones. Steph could though get her own arch, and while I see her working with Harper in her own way, I would actually like her working with Clayface. If anyone can get to him it would be Steph due to her personality and being able to look beyond the whole muck monster. And yes it's a huge factor in the bat family. It was one of the reasons that Helena wasn't allowed in at first, because she killed people. Same for Azreal, he only got the batsuit at the time due to circumstances, and as you pointed out the whole thing about Jim Jr. and lest we forget Damian's beheading of Nobody, and then the whole thing with Jason. I don't think they're going to flow in that way, if anything we get wrap up then we go into Steph, although didn't she just get a big arc in Eternal? 
> 
> Damian and Steph working together again would be amazing. Maya and Duke are cool in their own way but you're right neither quite hits the spot the way Steph did with Damian. I kind of hope we can eventually have a spoiler and Robin book just to get that interaction back.


Tynion has promised that the arc right after Night of the Monster Men will be a Steph arc, and the arc after that will be for Cass (http://thebatmanuniverse.net/detective-comics-46/). I think I did hear that Clayface will also be a big part of one of these two upcoming arcs as well? Which would be really interesting. I hope we have Steph reflecting on her family situation and how it relates to her being a hero.

I would adore a Spoiler and Robin book, though I'm not sure a Steph who hasn't been around for 20 years and been Robin and Batgirl would be able to command Damian's respect. Though since Duke did it, I'm sure Steph could manage. Man, forget Super Sons, let's have Super Siblings!  :Smile:

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## Caivu

> Tynion has promised that the arc right after Night of the Monster Men will be a Steph arc, and the arc after that will be for Cass (http://thebatmanuniverse.net/detective-comics-46/). *I think I did hear that Clayface will also be a big part of one of these two upcoming arcs as well?* Which would be really interesting. I hope we have Steph reflecting on her family situation and how it relates to her being a hero.


He'll be sharing Steph's arc.

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## millernumber1

> He'll be sharing Steph's arc.


That's what I thought, but didn't have a source on right away. Thanks!

That does give me flashbacks to a certain issue of Batgirl...  :Smile: 

Batgirl (2009-2011) 013-000.jpg

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## adrikito

She will never be batgirl again but... I hope see Steph and damian again soon(now that DC is obsessed with the old.)... and we return to this...


steph damian.jpg

Time ago .. I saw old batman comics..  Batgirl Steph comics... Bruce met his son... Damian like Robin and Dick Grayson as Batman.. and more.. I need see this two again in the same place..

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## millernumber1

> She will never be batgirl again but... I hope see Steph and damian again soon(now that DC is obsessed with the old.)... and we return to this...
> 
> 
> Attachment 39402
> 
> Time ago .. I saw old batman comics..  Batgirl Steph comics... Bruce met his son... Damian like Robin and Dick Grayson as Batman.. and more.. I need see this two again in the same place..


I am with you, but I think Damian being in Super Sons and Teen Titans will kind of preclude him from being in Gotham regularly, and Steph doesn't usually trot the globe.  :Frown:  I really wish we knew who was writing Super Sons, and that Steph had more than one title.  Okay, I'm greedy - she's gone from being poison at editorial, to being introduced in a big event weekly comic, to guest starring in two critically acclaimed titles, to being a star in a very, very high profile team book - but she's my fave! I want her to be in ALL the titles!

----------


## adrikito

> I am with you, but I think Damian being in Super Sons and Teen Titans will kind of preclude him from being in Gotham regularly, and Steph doesn't usually trot the globe.  I really wish we knew who was writing Super Sons, and that Steph had more than one title.  Okay, I'm greedy - she's gone from being poison at editorial, to being introduced in a big event weekly comic, to guest starring in two critically acclaimed titles, to being a star in a very, very high profile team book - but she's my fave! I want her to be in ALL the titles!


HAHAHAHA.. I understand this.. I like this girl..  DC mentioned that Damian will sometimes appear on Nightwing, is only repeat that in Detective Comics.. 

About series.. I think Detective Comics soon give a twist... and DC dissolved this team .. We saw the cover of November, team problems.... and then they will use Detective Comics to investigate the rebirth and I'll have an excuse to leave the comic temporarily... 

*DC mentioned that is open to add Steph and Cass in Birds of Prey someday... For now it is our only hope..*

----------


## millernumber1

> HAHAHAHA.. I understand this.. I like this girl..  DC mentioned that Damian will sometimes appear on Nightwing, is only repeat that in Detective Comics.. 
> 
> About series.. I think Detective Comics soon give a twist... and DC dissolved this team .. We saw the cover of November, team problems.... and then they will use Detective Comics to investigate the rebirth and I'll have an excuse to leave the comic temporarily... 
> 
> *DC mentioned that is open to add Steph and Cass in Birds of Prey someday... For now it is our only hope..*


I would love to see Steph and Cass guest on the Birds! It would be cool to see Steph get to learn from Dinah more officially (and hopefully with stronger writers) than during the Fletcher/Stewart run.

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## millernumber1

> Beating a couple supervillians and rescuing half the batfamily is arguably more important than steph running around with a key to a door that never opens. Absolutely no point in the key even existing in the first place, it changed nothing, it did nothing and introducing a character in such a frustrating way is bad. She deserved better and the reader deserved better.


Kind of hilariously, in term of structure and plot, I completely agree with you. The ending of Eternal is very frustrating, as Cluemaster just walks out and says "Ta da" to Bruce. Absolutely nothing Batman or anyone else has done makes a difference at all.

However, I still really, really enjoy Eternal for the character interactions and relationships, and even though Steph isn't...exactly plot-vital, she's very much Steph to me.

----------


## millernumber1

I asked Tynion today at Baltimore Comic Con, and he said that a cut scene from Batman Eternal #52 showed Steph's mom taking on the mask of the Cluemaster, and that her brilliance was what Batman was referring to in Tec #934, saying that Steph was raised by two verifiable geniuses. It didn't sound like he was going to be able to use that idea any time soon, possibly never, but I thought it was neat!

2016-09-03 18.00.07.jpg

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## Caivu

> and that her brilliance was what Batman was referring to in Tec #934, saying that Steph was raised by two verifiable geniuses.


Yep. There's a point in the one of the later issues of Eternal where Arthur says to Steph that the Browns are all naturally gifted puzzle solvers.

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## millernumber1

> Yep. There's a point in the one of the later issues of Eternal where Arthur says to Steph that the Browns are all naturally gifted puzzle solvers.


Ah, interesting! I don't recall that one, but it's a big series.  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

So, Steph got a hug from Bruce, inspired by Tim this week! A bit of a reversal of the norm (such as in Batman Gotham Knights #37), but well done.  I hope that Tom King, Steve Orlando, and Tim Seeley get some killer Steph in the next 3 weeks, and when we come back, Steph will be front and center!

----------


## Drake&West

Yeah, I thought about War Games too. Pretty similar situation too, just reversed. Looking forward to seeing what they do with Steph next.

----------


## gwhh

Some good info here on where to find her at in this series:  

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dc-announ...142800816.html

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## millernumber1

> Some good info here on where to find her at in this series:  
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/dc-announ...142800816.html


Wow, blast from the Convergence past.  :Smile:

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## adrikito

One friend showed me the 3st part of Monster Men, this week I buy Nightwing, he Batman..

Spoiler is having a good role in this saga..

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## millernumber1

> One friend showed me the 3st part of Monster Men, this week I buy Nightwing, he Batman..
> 
> Spoiler is having a good role in this saga..


Yes! They're really bringing her background into the story in an intentional way, and highlighting her partnership with Cass, both of which are really fun to see! I like that they're using the puzzle-solving aspect of her heritage, since they've killed off her actual dad and thus cut off (for now, at least) the kind of stories she got for the first three years of her existence, fighting her dad in and out of prison.

----------


## adrikito

> Yes! They're really bringing her background into the story in an intentional way, and highlighting her partnership with Cass, both of which are really fun to see! I like that they're using the puzzle-solving aspect of her heritage, since they've killed off her actual dad and thus cut off (for now, at least) the kind of stories she got for the first three years of her existence, fighting her dad in and out of prison.


...Yes, is interesting..Hahahaha... Cass is the friend of the Steph, no Harper.. This team is the evidence, They have been more time together..

spoiler monster men saga.jpg

I liked this image.. In few words... *ALL UNDER CONTROL.*

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## sunofdarkchild

I was going to comment on how jarring her jump in intelligence has been since Eternal, but then I remembered how she figured out how to track Batman down to the minute in that series.  I guess the question is whether she was always this smart or whether her father's actions forced her to discover these pattern-seeing skills.

----------


## adrikito

> I was going to comment on how jarring her jump in intelligence has been since Eternal, but then I remembered how she figured out how to track Batman down to the minute in that series.  I guess the question is whether she was always this smart or whether her father's actions forced her to discover these pattern-seeing skills.


Speaking of intelligence, if you comment again... 

*What do you think about the "evolution" of barbara gordon? in other words Batgirl of BURNSIDE..
*

The character was a greatest heroin before his begin in burnside.. no? That's my opinion.. Now.. she seems a teenager, no a adult woman..

BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE... This is a evolution or regression for the character? I understand that the end of his role as Oracle was a great loss, she was again batgirl, but this... After your previous comment about spoiler, I would like to know your opinion..

----------


## millernumber1

> ...Yes, is interesting..Hahahaha... Cass is the friend of the Steph, no Harper.. This team is the evidence, They have been more time together..
> 
> Attachment 40600
> 
> I liked this image.. In few words... *ALL UNDER CONTROL.*


Yes, I've really enjoyed the way Orlando is writing Steph and Cass's friendship and partnership. Feels like not only Tynion, but Orlando, has a love and respect for the old Robin and Batgirl of the late 90s.




> I was going to comment on how jarring her jump in intelligence has been since Eternal, but then I remembered how she figured out how to track Batman down to the minute in that series.  I guess the question is whether she was always this smart or whether her father's actions forced her to discover these pattern-seeing skills.


There does seem to be a bit more "knows random stuff" than previous Steph did, but Orlando does draw the explicit connection that Steph is Cluemaster's daughter. Not my favorite characterization - I think Steph's always been smart, but very instinctive and emotionally aware as well. She's seemed to keep a lot of the emotional awareness, but added a lot of more traditionally "smart" behavior. We'll have to see how she progresses...




> Speaking of intelligence, if you comment again... 
> 
> *What do you think about the "evolution" of barbara gordon? in other words Batgirl of BURNSIDE..
> *
> 
> The character was a greatest heroin before his begin in burnside.. no? That's my opinion.. Now.. she seems a teenager, no a adult woman..
> 
> BATGIRL OF BURNSIDE... This is a evolution or regression for the character? I understand that the end of his role as Oracle was a great loss, she was again batgirl, but this... After your previous comment about spoiler, I would like to know your opinion..


I think pretty much everyone in the Burnside run was served poorly. Babs especially became a whiny, immature, reactive girl, instead of a woman (definitely a regression), but even though I enjoyed enthusiastic genki girl Steph, my Steph has a bit more awareness and self-respect, instead of being quite so fangirly. On the plus side, Steph was never presented as an incompetent hero, though.

----------


## Aahz

The strange thing is that (at least in non retroactive stories) Barbra was never a teen age crime fighter, back in the 60s when she was originally introduced she had already a PhD.

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## millernumber1

> The strange thing is that (at least in non retroactive stories) Barbra was never a teen age crime fighter, back in the 60s when she was originally introduced she had already a PhD.


Hmm, interesting. Batgirl is definitely one of the higher profile members of the Batfamily because of the long history she has (50 years!).  I think that Barbara's position is awkward because she was really only Batgirl before the Crisis, so her stuff in-universe since that reboot has been mostly flashbacks, except for a couple of one-shots and, of course, the n52, which was torn apart by editorial and writer's perspectives.  I personally still think Barbara is best served as Oracle, a mentor to other Batgirls (especially my main heroine Steph!, but of course, also Cass and Charlie), and master of intelligence of the DC universe.

It's important to note that both Steph and Cass were teens when they took on the mantle of Batgirl, and while Cass "graduated" to Black Bat (unintentionally, apparently), Steph was still in the prime of her Batgirl career when it was sadly cut short. It's made even more tricky, as Batwoman is taken and unlikely to retire anytime soon, so there's no apparent upward mobility possible in the Bat-line for Batgirls right now.

I am curious to see if the League of Batgirls idea from Simone's Future's End one-shot will ever come to fruition in an ongoing series. I think it would be a pretty cool idea, and would give both Cass and Steph serious boosts and respect that the "girls can't be Robin" crowd tries to deny them.

----------


## Aahz

> It's important to note that both Steph and Cass were teens when they took on the mantle of Batgirl, and while Cass "graduated" to Black Bat (unintentionally, apparently), Steph was still in the prime of her Batgirl career when it was sadly cut short.


Steph was actually allready in collage when she became Batgirl, iirc it was said that she would be 19 even if that doesn't really match with Tim being only 17 at that time.

And Cass was iirc also allready 17 when her solo series started and therefore already 16 or 17 when she became Batgirl. 

The only Batgirl that was really a teen for the majority of her run was Bette. (pre crisis it was said that she was 16 when she started (directly as Flamebird without ever beeing Bat-Girl), but in the silver age she might have been a little bit younger)

The starting ages for Batgirls was traditionally higher than for Robins (pre flashpoint Tim had with 13 the highest starting age of the Robins).

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph was actually allready in collage when she became Batgirl, iirc it was said that she would be 19 even if that doesn't really match with Tim being only 17 at that time.
> 
> And Cass was iirc also allready 17 when her solo series started and therefore already 16 or 17 when she became Batgirl. 
> 
> The only Batgirl that was really a teen for the majority of her run was Bette. (pre crisis it was said that she was 16 when she started (directly as Flamebird without ever beeing Bat-Girl), but in the silver age she might have been a little bit younger)
> 
> The starting ages for Batgirls was traditionally higher than for Robins (pre flashpoint Tim had with 13 the highest starting age of the Robins).


Oh, yes, I know. It could be they just caught Tim and Steph on the far sides of their birthdays - Steph turning 19 a bit before Tim turns 18. She was always about a year older than him, anyway (and is again in current continuity).

Cass was a teen, as well - she started at 16, and I think was roughly the same age as Steph when she was Black Bat?

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## Aahz

@millernumber1

As an ongoing "project" I'm working on a text about the ages of the Batfamily characters. The currect paragraphy for Cass and Steph look like this.




> *Cassandra Cain*
> Cass was around 16 when she appeared during No Man's Land [1], and is 17 at the beginning of her first Batgirl series (Tim is still 15 during all this time) [2], and she becomes 18 after Bruce Wayne: Fugative [3]. Her Birthday is January 26th [4]. There fore she is half a year older than Jason (and it is also explicitly said in the comics that she and Jason are roughly the same age [5]) and two and a half year older than Tim.
> Her age in the new 52 was not revealed, it was said that she was between 10 and 12 in the flash back stories in Batman and Robin Eternal [6], which would make her between 15 and 17 and was effected by Icthys which confirms that she is below 18 [7].
> Sources: [1] Batman - No Man's Land - Secret Files & Origins, [2] Batgirl Vol 1 #17, [3] Batgirl Vol 1 #34, [4] Batgirl Vol 1 #33, [5] Batgirl Vol 1 #65, [6] Batman and Robin Eternal #6, [7] Batman and Robin Eternal #19
> 
> *Stephanie Brown*
> In her first appearance (before Knight Fall) it is only said that she is older than Tim and she is old enough to drive a scooter (so she is probably 16) [1]. According to later comics she was 15 when she became Spoiler [2] and when she became pregnant during No Man's Land [3] and was 16 when she was killed by Black Mask [4]. But she was already in collage [5] and she was said to be approximately 19 when she was Batgirl [6]. So depending on the story she is between the same age and two years older than Tim.
> In the new 52 she was said to be 17[7].
> Sources: [1] Detective Comics #648-#649, [2] Secret Origins 80 pages Giant, [3] Robin Vol 4 #59, [4] Batman Allies - Secret Files & Origins, [5] Batgirl Vol 3 #1, [6] Batgirl Vol 3 #6, [7] Batman Eternal #40


Steph basically alternated between beeing Tims age and Cass age. When she was introduced she was older than Tim, from No Man's Land untill her death they were the same age, and as Batgirl she was suddenly older again.

And honestly I don't like the ages in the current continuity, Tim beeing still only 16 doesn't make much sense for me (he should be 18 or at least 17 by now), and Jason should be closer in age to Tim/Steph/Cass than to Dick and Barbara.

----------


## millernumber1

Nicely done! Are you posting this somewhere!

I think that Tim's age being still 16 is fine, but a bit silly considering that Damian has aged 3 years. My biggest problem is the way they keep aging Babs down - I used to think of her as in her 30s, older than Dick, younger than Bruce. Now she's 21, same age as Dick.

However, ages will almost never be consistent or really hard and fast, because DC will never let us know how old Bruce is.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> Nicely done! Are you posting this somewhere!


The latest complete version I posted can be found here, which goes up untill rebirth. I will maybe post an updated version when were are a little bit further into Rebirth (maybe at the and of the year). And I really need to find the time to restructure Dicks Text a devide it properly between Earth 1, 2 and new Earth.

----------


## adrikito

INTERESTING.. I put these characters(Tim, Steph, Cass) between 15-17 years.. Tim said to Jason.. I am minor.. I can´t drink.. in Batman/Robin Eternal..

BUT THANKS FOR THIS..

----------


## millernumber1

> The latest complete version I posted can be found here, which goes up untill rebirth. I will maybe post an updated version when were are a little bit further into Rebirth (maybe at the and of the year). And I really need to find the time to restructure Dicks Text a devide it properly between Earth 1, 2 and new Earth.


Very nice! You should make a blog post!  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> I think that Tim's age being still 16 is fine, but a bit silly considering that Damian has aged 3 years. My biggest problem is the way they keep aging Babs down - I used to think of her as in her 30s, older than Dick, younger than Bruce. Now she's 21, same age as Dick.


My problem with Tim being just 16 is that they retonned that that is the age where Dick and Jason just became Robin in the new 52 (I hope they lower this again when the stolen 10 years thing is over).

And since Bruce is now only in his early 30s it make at least sense for Barbara to be in her 20s.

----------


## Aahz

> INTERESTING.. I put these characters(Tim, Steph, Cass) between 15-17 years.. Tim said to Jason.. I am minor.. I can´t drink.. in Batman/Robin Eternal..
> 
> BUT THANKS FOR THIS..


But Batman/Robin Eternal also implies that Jason allready 20, Jason beeing 4 years older than Tim doesn't make sense for me, with the compressed timeline they should only be 1 year appart (2 at most).

And appart from this it was just reveraled that Tim has allready finished High School and was going to attend a University, so why keep him 16 if he is anyway not doing Teen stuff anymore?

----------


## millernumber1

Anyway, as fascinating as these age speculations are, they are a bit far afield of appreciating the waffletastic Stephanie Brown.  :Smile: 

I was wondering - Caivu has made excellent points in some of the Monster Men discussion threads about this crossover setting up for The Victim Syndicate. Steph said this week that she's not for vigilantes - how do you think that plays out, being part of Batwoman's bootcamp?

----------


## adrikito

> I think pretty much everyone in the Burnside run was served poorly. Babs especially became a whiny, immature, reactive girl, instead of a woman (definitely a regression), but even though I enjoyed enthusiastic genki girl Steph, my Steph has a bit more awareness and self-respect, instead of being quite so fangirly. On the plus side, Steph was never presented as an incompetent hero, though.


Despite my problems with Burnside... I see the chapters with Spoiler....  I followed the movements of the character since batman eternal, even old batgirl-steph comics.. As old batman comics for see Damian origin and more.. Cass has 2 volumes, but the second is very very short ..

spoiler_marked.jpg

Spoiler of Burnside(deviantart image in my favorites)... This character makes me laugh..   :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite my problems with Burnside... I see the chapters with Spoiler....  I followed the movements of the character since batman eternal, even old batgirl-steph comics.. As old batman comics for see Damian origin and more.. Cass has 2 volumes, but the second is very very short ..
> 
> Attachment 40629
> 
> Spoiler of Burnside(deviantart image in my favorites)... This character makes me laugh..


I bought them too! Having Steph with a prominant role in a high profile title is always good! Especially issue #51, where she pretty much takes down a van of bad guys by herself, looking super awesome on a bike!

That's a really great new Spoiler image! I just wish the artists would decide whether she keeps her mask on or not.  :Smile:

----------


## The Lucky One

> That's a really great new Spoiler image! I just wish the artists would decide whether she keeps her mask on or not.


If I recall correctly, one of the artists of Steph's Batgirl title (Dustin Nguyen, maybe?) said that in his opinion, any mask she wore needed to leave the bottom half of her face exposed because she's such an expressive, spunky, joy-filled character, and you really need to be able to see her smile to have that fully come through.

Obviously that's just one artist's opinion, but I wonder if it doesn't at least partially explain why so many of her New 52 appearances have her with mask down.

----------


## millernumber1

Well, Nguyen designed the ninja mask for her current costume, so maybe he forgot?  :Smile:  I do think that Steph is an especially expressive, emotionally aware character, and denying her facial expression is a big problem for her character.

----------


## adrikito

Another images of Deviantart...

Rebirth Spoiler:

stephanie_brown__dc_rebirth.jpg

An Amazing work, no?  Exist another character like Batgirl(no batgirl of burnside) of this artist

http://carlosbragaart80.deviantart.c...eviation_stack

Even a cute girl, perfect for one cosplay of Steph..

http://www.deviantart.com/art/batman...anie-634106914

----------


## adrikito

One cosplay(rebirth spoiler) of Tumblr:

rebirth spoiler cosplay.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Adventures in Batwoman Babysitting.jpg
Adventures in Batwoman Babysitting! I love Steph's attitude here - is very appropriate - eager, self-motivated, conflicting with authority but not hostile to it, and wanting to grab Tim.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Adventures in Batwoman Babysitting.jpg
> Adventures in Batwoman Babysitting! I love Steph's attitude here - is very appropriate - eager, self-motivated, conflicting with authority but not hostile to it, and wanting to grab Tim.


I see that image in deviantart...

Clayface seems a BIG baby.. Cass a terrified little girl.. Spoiler, seems that she is saying a scary story for scare his friends... Tim tries to escape.. HAHAHAHA.. Batwoman a baby-sitter..

----------


## K. Jones

Thought I'd weigh in that while I'd prefer some kind of lift of Steph's Batgirl-mask, just without the "bat" bits, the same way Cass has her faceless mask just without bat bits, I do like that the ninja scarf she's wearing now is such a direct homage to Cluemaster's costume.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thought I'd weigh in that while I'd prefer some kind of lift of Steph's Batgirl-mask, just without the "bat" bits, the same way Cass has her faceless mask just without bat bits, I do like that the ninja scarf she's wearing now is such a direct homage to Cluemaster's costume.


Oooh, good thoughts. I'm not sure I'd be happy with an earless skullcap, though. I like that Steph's hair is free, with the hood (even if it's ridiculous "realistically") - it seems to fit her personality. Without the ears, the skullcap would seem too dark for the Purple Urbex Hobbyist, Violet Vindicator, enemy of crime and people who don't like purple!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Oooh, good thoughts. I'm not sure I'd be happy with an earless skullcap, though. I like that Steph's hair is free, with the hood (even if it's ridiculous "realistically") - it seems to fit her personality. Without the ears, the skullcap would seem too dark for the Purple Urbex Hobbyist, Violet Vindicator, enemy of crime and people who don't like purple!


HAHAHAHA... I like see his hair too... his costume is perfect for her.

However, I see his previous costumes and I don´t have problems with them, his first costume with a mask is like see spiderman mask(in black), and I like spiderman.. 

The current is a combination of his old batgirl costume with old his spoiler costume.. More modern, and better.

----------


## Frontier

I personally do kinda miss the full face mask, not that I don't think Steph with her hair out is a nice visual, but the mask always seemed like a pretty iconic part of the Spoiler look.

----------


## gwhh

what issue is this from??

----------


## millernumber1

> what issue is this from??


That's from Batgirl #14, a fantastic issue! It was a single-issue story about Steph and Kara teaming up against Dracula!

----------


## Caivu

> I was wondering - Caivu has made excellent points in some of the Monster Men discussion threads about this crossover setting up for The Victim Syndicate. Steph said this week that she's not for vigilantes - how do you think that plays out, being part of Batwoman's bootcamp?


Aw, thank you!

My own thoughts about this, based on more recent info:
Harper I think is going to be an anchoring point for Steph in this arc. I don't see Harper getting back into superheroing so soon, and she's really the only person Steph can talk to. Cass is a friend, but not one for conversation, really. Batman is too old, emotionally closed off, etc to be of much help. Kate is similar, more emotionally accessible but less connected to Tim specifically, even though she'd be feeling his loss, too. So Harper's really the only one left. They're the same age and Harper was close to Tim as well. Harper was also the one to originally bolster Spoiler back in Eternal when Steph was having cold feet about being a vigilante.
But that was before what happened to Tim happened. Steph's been in dangerous situations, but the death of a fellow superhero isn't (IIRC) something she ever dealt with before. She may decide, at least briefly, that the potential cost isn't worth it. 
It does make me wonder about the solicit for #945, where it says that the whole team is considering leaving Batman. I'm interested if it really ends up being that one-sided.

----------


## millernumber1

> Aw, thank you!
> 
> My own thoughts about this, based on more recent info:
> Harper I think is going to be an anchoring point for Steph in this arc. I don't see Harper getting back into superheroing so soon, and she's really the only person Steph can talk to. Cass is a friend, but not one for conversation, really. Batman is too old, emotionally closed off, etc to be of much help. Kate is similar, more emotionally accessible but less connected to Tim specifically, even though she'd be feeling his loss, too. So Harper's really the only one left. They're the same age and Harper was close to Tim as well. Harper was also the one to originally bolster Spoiler back in Eternal when Steph was having cold feet about being a vigilante.
> But that was before what happened to Tim happened. Steph's been in dangerous situations, but the death of a fellow superhero isn't (IIRC) something she ever dealt with before. She may decide, at least briefly, that the potential cost isn't worth it. 
> It does make me wonder about the solicit for #945, where it says that the whole team is considering leaving Batman. I'm interested if it really ends up being that one-sided.


I think/hope you're right about Harper. Having her head back into the blue tights so soon after Batman and Robin Eternal doesn't feel right. I would like to see Harper and Steph have some relief in talking to each other - I loved Harper and Tim's relationship in the first Eternal, and am kinda sad that they didn't really interact in the second.

I am really curious about how the group dynamics are going to work. Especially with the addition of people like Batwing. I think Steph and Luke could have a really nice rapport, though!

----------


## adrikito

Of deviantart, the TEC Force:

http://eliburryschnepp.deviantart.co...orce-640592988

Attachment 40861

Batwoman(Ginyu position): The leader
Steph(Jeice position): With the purple, she is Colorful, as Jeice
Cass(Burter position): the fastest member..
Tim(Guldo position): The most special member, Guldo had psychic abilities, Tim is the most intelligent..
Clayface(Become position), the strongest

----------


## millernumber1

Nice! I love the way the team seems to have gelled in fan's minds - I think partly because it includes heros we just want to see on a team - Batman and Batwoman, Steph/Cass/Tim. It rides the love of Kate and Bruce, and feeds the desire for the Gotham Girl Gang that was spreading because of the two Eternal series (and Batgirl afterwards).  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Nice! I love the way the team seems to have gelled in fan's minds - I think partly because it includes heros we just want to see on a team - Batman and Batwoman, Steph/Cass/Tim. It rides the love of Kate and Bruce, and feeds the desire for the Gotham Girl Gang that was spreading because of the two Eternal series (and Batgirl afterwards).


YES...The people have a very good opinion of this team role in Detective Comics, while things remains well this team is going to continue with his success.. Like Red Hood and Outlaws I desire the same LUCK for Damian and the Teen Titans..

----------


## Aahz

> YES...The people have a very good opinion of this team role in Detective Comics, while things remains well, this team continue with his success..


I'm wondering how much the loss of Tim will affect his. 




> Like Red Hood and Outlaws I desire the same LUCK for Damian and the Teen Titans..


The problem with Damians Titans is that many of the other team members are to strongly connected with the other Robins. Many people would probaly prefer to have Starfire, Raven and Beastboy in Dicks Titans over Damians Teen Titans.
And even if I liked the Jason-Roy-team, I think having now team members that aren't connected with the rest of the Batfamily really helps him.

----------


## adrikito

> I'm wondering how much the loss of Tim will affect his. 
> 
> The problem with Damians Titans is that many of the other team members are to strongly connected with the other Robins. Many people would probaly prefer to have Starfire, Raven and Beastboy in Dicks Titans over Damians Teen Titans.
> And even if I liked the Jason-Roy-team, I think having now team members that aren't connected with the rest of the Batfamily really helps him.


I am a little afraid for this.. But the disappearance of Tim is for rebirth existence..

About Damian.. Is very difficult(despite Goliath presence) but... if the 6th member is Maya(character of *robin son of batman*), she could be a good character to connect robin with the team..

*Almost all this Teen Titans has appeared in Justice League vs Teen Titans, and I think all that character work well together in that film..*

----------


## millernumber1

I adore Maya. But everytime I think about Maya, I am sad that Damian can't have Maya and Steph both telling him to be a kid and stop being such a serious snob all the time.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

Oooh, look, a video by Linkara (reasonably popular comic reviewer and satirist who creates nerdy videos about comics, most of them bad, but in this case, good!) about Batgirl #14!




Really just a fun summary in a goofy vampire accent for halloween, but this is one of my favorite Steph adventures - it perfectly encapsulates Steph's run as Batgirl in terms of tone and the way Steph relates to other heroes and her everyday life.

----------


## Aahz

> I adore Maya. But everytime I think about Maya, I am sad that Damian can't have Maya and Steph both telling him to be a kid and stop being such a serious snob all the time.


You have hardly ever to characters from the same franchise in the Titans, and I don't think that a support character of one of the team members ever made it into the team.
I think there is a higher chance for Maya to be a support char in Super Sons than in Teen Titans.

But I think that they should in general, that if they add charcters to the Batfamily, it should be characters  of Damians genration. Imo it would make more sense to push Maya and maybe Collin, than to expand Tims and Dicks Generations.

----------


## adrikito

> I adore Maya. But everytime I think about Maya, I am sad that Damian can't have Maya and Steph both telling him to be a kid and stop being such a serious snob all the time.


I adore Maya too..  *Supersons*?..Damnit, I should have figured this.... She return in Superman 10 and now know that Kid..  :Frown:   Well, I give it a change(*only if Maya appears*) when the story is focused in Damian Wayne, taking that as a continuation of Robin Son of Batman, with another extra character..

 She was best idea for *Teen Titans*, for control Damian, to help him to socialize with other members of TT.

*ANY INTEVIEW ABOUT VICTIM SYNDICATE? The People say... the Mother of Steph should be a victim..* I need know more.

----------


## Aahz

> She was best idea for *Teen Titans*, for control Damian, to help him to socialize with other members of TT.


I think that Emiko could have a similar function if she would join the team.

----------


## adrikito

> I think that Emiko could have a similar function if she would join the team.


Maybe... *something happened in Green Arrow for give you this idea? SIMILAR FUNCTION...I known a little about Green Arrow current status... is because Emiko Mother, is a villain like damian mother?*  

Currently I think that Rose can be this member.. For his past in TT, the *current Deathstroke Saga*(with Damian here), Priest Interview(Batman no kidnap Rose, he is attacking her psychologically), all this could make her the secret member... If she is good after this saga... What is the next?

With Aqualad... I see difficult see him as TT.  Rebirth aqualad is like Duke or the current TT Wally(the only problem I see here), if DC want use that character they SHOULD make something like Young Justice Aqualad or Aqualad Pre-flashpoint, for make the character different than Wally.. 

*My idea with Maya was of one character in Damian side, for help him with his problems with the team and help him to socialize with the rest of the team*... and for continue *ROBIN: SON OF BATMAN*, Goliath is here... But Unfortunately she seems a future character for supersons for his return in superman 10...  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

You raise a good point - Emiko, Rose, Damian, and Steph all share villainous parents. That's been a part of their heroic journey - the struggle to deal with the fact that they are young (sometimes very young) people who desire the love and respect of their parents, but also want to be heroic and do good. I've always loved how Steph walked the line between regret and moving on from her harsh background, particularly with the backstory issue where she was talking to her unborn baby.

----------


## Aahz

> Maybe... *something happened in Green Arrow for give you this idea? SIMILAR FUNCTION...I known a little about Green Arrow current status... is because Emiko Mother, is a villain like damian mother?*


More important is that she was also trained from a young age to be an assassin, but is more social/normal than Damian. She is actually quite similar to Maya.

Rose or Steph wouldn't work that well, Steph had villain as dad but she didn't new about it for most of her live and wasn't raised to be villain and Rose is also someone who wouldn't get along with the rest of the team. Emiko is also closer in age to Damian. She is roughly 15 iirc, while Steph is 17 and Rose maybe even older.

Emiko has is also a quite new character and doesn't have any pre established relation with the older Batfamily characters.

And Emiko could fill the Arrow family member slot on the team.

----------


## millernumber1

I dunno - in Batman Eternal, Cluemaster wanted her to become Pointer, his sidekick. That's later than the others had their training, but there's an element of it. And Steph would definitely get along with the team!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> And Emiko could fill the Arrow family member slot on the team.


*You've convinced me* BUT... unfortunately I do not work for DC, or fortunately... I'm good drawing, but currently I prefer not work for DC, thanks to rebirth.. 

Damn Crisis on Infinite Earths, this never should have happened.. DC has been unable to go beyond that reboot, specially with superman, now turn back to this era..

----------


## millernumber1

What's wrong with the Crisis continuity? It gave us Steph, Tim, Jason, Cass, Helena Bertinelli, Damian, and so much awesome stuff!  :Smile: 

Anyhoo - anyone think that the blond person talking to Harper in Tynion's tweet here is Steph? The dude is Azrael, but it would make sense that Harper and Steph are chatting, I think.

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...38496383315968

----------


## adrikito

> What's wrong with the Crisis continuity? It gave us Steph, Tim, Jason, Cass, Helena Bertinelli, Damian, and so much awesome stuff! 
> 
> Anyhoo - anyone think that the blond person talking to Harper in Tynion's tweet here is Steph? The dude is Azrael, but it would make sense that Harper and Steph are chatting, I think.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...38496383315968


For the batman legacy was good that era.. I born in 1993, Like BANE..  :Cool:  and Kon-el......Unfortunately This Superman ressurect the same year..

Probably Only Superman..The original Pre-Crisis character is better in all the senses.... Now his presence here is rebooting the universe and putting him AGAIN as Superman... too many privileges .. This miracle should be only apt for the original superman.

Fortunately he no did the TABU of erase the original superman of the existence.. Like he did with N52 Superman transforming him in LESS than one version of Superman thanks to him and rebirth....   :Mad: 

*Forget this... AZRAEL HEAD... is very small, no? *

----------


## Red obin

We can all agree that Steph brown's batgirl series has the best ending ever.

d70544522e657376596109c23c4f42e7.jpgStephandBabs.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Yes! I still cry every time I read "Here we go" for the last time. I recently bought all three of Steph's trades, and they are magnificent.

----------


## adrikito

> We can all agree that Steph brown's batgirl series has the best ending ever.
> 
> d70544522e657376596109c23c4f42e7.jpgStephandBabs.jpg


I am not surprised.. One Steph serie.. Should Have a good or funny end..  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Whovian

> We can all agree that Steph brown's batgirl series has the best ending ever.
> 
> d70544522e657376596109c23c4f42e7.jpgStephandBabs.jpg


That was a fantastic series and I miss Steph in the role of Batgirl. But then again, I also miss Cass as Batgirl.

----------


## adrikito

> That was a fantastic series and I miss Steph in the role of Batgirl. But then again, I also miss Cass as Batgirl.


I saw his comic... I thought I wanted to see her as Batgirl again but.. With the time I understand that see Steph as Spoiler is enough for me, I liked even his past spoiler costumes.. The character is the important.. With one comic with her as remarkable character I have enough.. If exist more, better..

Good Luck with Cass... With her Batgirl would rise of level again.. NO BURNSIDE..


*YOU ARE RIGHT PEOPLE, VICTIM SYNDICATE BEGINS THE NEXT WEEK AND  WITHOUT PREVIEW,  BATWOMAN TALK ABOUT STEPH:*

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...38057409044480

The First Victim is my favorite for Steph mother... although, Mudface has the spoiler colors.....  :EEK!:

----------


## millernumber1

VICTIM SYNDICATE! GET HYPE!  :Smile: 

And talking about Stephanie! Woohoo! Wanna bet it's because she's been mad about being a vigilante after Tim's death (based on her talking in Night of the Monster Men)?  :Smile:

----------


## PurpleGlovez

> Yes! I still cry every time I read "Here we go" for the last time. I recently bought all three of Steph's trades, and they are magnificent.


Damn, I bet those cost a pretty penny. I don't understand why DC doesn't just send them back to print (skipping the "new edition" bull$h!t) since they're so in demand, and the new trades with Cassie seem to be doing okay, and we _know_ Steph's run would do better (right?)

----------


## millernumber1

> Damn, I bet those cost a pretty penny. I don't understand why DC doesn't just send them back to print (skipping the "new edition" bull$h!t) since they're so in demand, and the new trades with Cassie seem to be doing okay, and we _know_ Steph's run would do better (right?)


Only about $20 a trade. The really expensive one is going to be the Red Robin: Collision trade with Batgirl #8. Yeesh. 40-60-200 dollars for one trade on that one.

I'm with you - why can't they just reprint them? I'm hoping that once Cass's trades reach the end of her series (at least with #73, maybe including Redemption Road), they'll continue to Steph's series.  But they're leaving money on the table right now.

I dunno about better, but I would definitely want them.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Steph's at an interesting place in the newest 'Tec. She's still mourning Tim, but at the same time isn't all "woe-is-me" about it. Instead she's being introspective about it (especially her role as a vigilante) and keeping to herself for the most part. She's stopped meeting up with the rest of the team and seems in a funk, to put it mildly. I think the Victim Syndicate is going to try to capitalize on that, especially since the First Victim seems to be stalking her.
Really complex stuff going on with her right now.  It's great.

----------


## adrikito

MY FAVORITE, The FIRST VICTIM... was spying Steph..

Steph for nurse..

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph's at an interesting place in the newest 'Tec. She's still mourning Tim, but at the same time isn't all "woe-is-me" about it. Instead she's being introspective about it (especially her role as a vigilante) and keeping to herself for the most part. She's stopped meeting up with the rest of the team and seems in a funk, to put it mildly. I think the Victim Syndicate is going to try to capitalize on that, especially since the First Victim seems to be stalking her.
> Really complex stuff going on with her right now.  It's great.


Yes! And I love how well Tynion wrote her today - very emotionally affecting, but not whining. I think he's definitely playing up her agreement with the Victim's ideology, but I'm fairly certain she'll come around to being a hero again - though perhaps solo, instead of being part of the team.




> MY FAVORITE, The FIRST VICTIM... was spying Steph..
> 
> Steph for nurse..


Haha - I love that Steph is important to the villains and Kate. Her first arc in Tec is shaping up to be a good one!

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Should be an interesting read once I pick it up. I can't wait to see Steph dealing with this. Wonder if Steph is going to fall into Tim's shoes realizing that he's not dead and setting out to find him and rescue him the same way he tried to for Bruce? 

Twenty bucks for her trades right now, that isn't bad at all. I have the last one, I'm going to have to get the others then.

----------


## millernumber1

> Should be an interesting read once I pick it up. I can't wait to see Steph dealing with this. Wonder if Steph is going to fall into Tim's shoes realizing that he's not dead and setting out to find him and rescue him the same way he tried to for Bruce? 
> 
> Twenty bucks for her trades right now, that isn't bad at all. I have the last one, I'm going to have to get the others then.


Yes, absolutely pick it up! Totally worth it.  I doubt Steph will have a Red Robin moment and search for NotDeadTim, though. That seems like it would be part of a Rebirth event comic, not the kinds of breadcrumbs they're scooting all over the place right now.

Yeah, I thought it was quite reasonable. I just scooped the first two Red Robin trades for 30 bucks each, cause I can't seem to find Collision by itself for less than 40. But that means I have it all!  :Smile:

----------


## Harpsikord

> Should be an interesting read once I pick it up. I can't wait to see Steph dealing with this. Wonder if Steph is going to fall into Tim's shoes realizing that he's not dead and setting out to find him and rescue him the same way he tried to for Bruce? 
> 
> Twenty bucks for her trades right now, that isn't bad at all. I have the last one, I'm going to have to get the others then.


This would be a _wonderful_ premise for a Spoiler series, especially with Batgirl and Nightwing both settling into their own grooves in their own cities.

----------


## Red obin

We at least need a spoiler miniseries spinning out of rebirth, maybe if the detective team disbands(hope not though) and Tim has just/is about to return

----------


## millernumber1

Yes! A Spoiler miniseries would be so appropriate and hopefully popular!

----------


## Caivu

Steph in the new edition of the DC Encyclopedia:

20161028_160007.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Awesome content! Thanks for providing it. I'm really curious about why they included her time as Robin, but not War Games and her hiatus.

----------


## Caivu

> Awesome content! Thanks for providing it.


No problem!




> I'm really curious about why they included her time as Robin, but not War Games and her hiatus.


Just from the little I've read, some of the more negative parts of a character's history are glossed over if they can be. I think the book's trying to present each character in the best light possible without lying about things.

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## millernumber1

> Just from the little I've read, some of the more negative parts of a character's history are glossed over if they can be. I think the book's trying to present each character in the best light possible without lying about things.


I mean, nothing wrong with that - it indicates that DC is interested in keeping these characters around and not disposing of them. Which, after the way Steph was treated from 2000-2009, is good to hear. And nice choice of her new Spoiler outfit - the art for Batman Eternal #20 was gorgeous. Odd that they picked the Ramon Bachs piece from her Batgirl run, rather than a Dustin Nguyen or Lee Garbett image - though it's probably the clearest image illustrating the Steph/Proxy team.

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## adrikito

I was thinking about certain things of the past and DC... resurrecting characters..*If the FIRST victim is Cluemaster?*  

*FIRST? Maybe here he is the first criminal that Batman caught, his first "Victim".. This character believes that he is a "victim" of batman..

Interest for Steph .. Both characters are observing in a similar position ..

*Attachment 41253

The blood... Maybe he character experience something like Clayface and he is alive..

Attachment 41254

I am speaking about this character... the rest maybe never were criminals, manipulated true victims, he made something similar to Batman Eternal.. 

REALLY, I'd prefer be wrong.... But I don´t  believe the rumor of his mother..

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## adrikito

> Yes! A Spoiler miniseries would be so appropriate and hopefully popular!


You remember his return in N52? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepha...#2011_relaunch

Dan DiDio *revealed in an interview that about ten waffles had arrived as of that time and expressed doubt that her fandom was really as strong as it appeared.*

DC did this thanks to the fans.. and I am grateful for this.. I believe in the miniserie triumph..




> We at least need a spoiler miniseries spinning out of rebirth, maybe if the detective team disbands(hope not though) and Tim has just/is about to return


GOOD IDEA.. unfortunately .. I heard that this team.. will be changing adding and(SURE) removing members ..

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...54121513607169
*
I support the idea of a comic with Steph and Cass*.. both someday will be out of the team.. BUT.. *They are important, they are in REBIRTH most important image of GREATEST Heroes and threats*..... for N52, I think that this serie will of 3 characters, for harper existence.....




> Steph in the new edition of the DC Encyclopedia:
> 
> 20161028_160007.jpg


Thanks for the image.

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## Chickfighter

The more characters that are added and the larger the team gets the less interest I will have.

But I'd love to see a Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph miniseries or two sometime.

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## millernumber1

> The more characters that are added and the larger the team gets the less interest I will have.
> 
> But I'd love to see a Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph miniseries or two sometime.


I mean, I don't care about all characters equally. Steph is my very favorite, but I think that all new characters give new readers (and old readers) a potential new story they can care about.

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## adrikito

During weeks I thought that Cass appears in my avatar but is... THE FIRST VICTIM... The blood.. The chapter shows me the truth...

Cass was training and it was impossible see her spying Steph... and why she would spy Steph?

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## Dataweaver

> Awesome content! Thanks for providing it. I'm really curious about why they included her time as Robin, but not War Games and her hiatus.


Looks like DC is doing its best to forget that episode of Stephanie's life, instead focusing on her accomplishments. Which is fine by me; War Games is one of the reasons that I hope that DCU Rebirth _won't_ fully restore the pre-Flashpoint timeline. I'd much rather they focus on salvaging what was good about the pre-Flashpoint DCU while abandoning what was bad about it. 

That said, I don't know how that would work in Stephanie's case. The post-Flashpoint continuity doesn't have room for her to have been Robin and Batgirl, since she's so new and Damian and Barbara hold those codenames at present. The most that could be done would be to restore her _memories_ of her time in those identities, without actually restoring the events themselves to the timeline.  And I'm not sure how useful that would be.

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## millernumber1

> Looks like DC is doing its best to forget that episode of Stephanie's life, instead focusing on her accomplishments. Which is fine by me; War Games is one of the reasons that I hope that DCU Rebirth _won't_ fully restore the pre-Flashpoint timeline. I'd much rather they focus on salvaging what was good about the pre-Flashpoint DCU while abandoning what was bad about it. 
> 
> That said, I don't know how that would work in Stephanie's case. The post-Flashpoint continuity doesn't have room for her to have been Robin and Batgirl, since she's so new and Damian and Barbara hold those codenames at present. The most that could be done would be to restore her _memories_ of her time in those identities, without actually restoring the events themselves to the timeline.  And I'm not sure how useful that would be.


Well, both of those things happened in the missing 10 years (technically, all of Steph's career is in the missing 10 years, but we'll have to see exactly how those are dealt with in Rebirth 2: Rebirthier!  :Wink:  )

But I'm pretty much on board with Steph remembering her life, but it not necessarily having happened (nobody needs to be tortured to death).

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## Dataweaver

Technically not death, with the hiatus retconned in place; but yeah. 

Really though, the part of that era that I find most objectionable was the “Bruce won't give her a chance, so Stephanie does something monumentally stupid” bit; i.e., how her career as Robin ended and how War Games started. Gloss over that the way Superman has glossed over pretty much everything pre-Flashpoint after Clark married Lois, and I'll be perfectly fine with it.

That said, restoring just the memories could work, _if a few others also have their corresponding memories restored_.  Stephanie encounters Damian; both of them remember the times when Batgirl-Stephanie teamed up with Damian.  Spoiler and Orphan hang out together and reminisce about when they first met up as Robin and Batgirl, respectively. (Incidentally, I'd love to have Cassandra's memories of her time as Batgirl restored too; but I'm fine if that largely excludes everything from One Year Later on.  That's where _she_ went off the rails.) More significantly, Stephanie and Wendy Harris encounter each other for the first time post-Flashpoint, and their shared memories of their pre-Flashpoint partnership rekindles it.  The events never happened; but the shared memories of the events still have consequences.

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## millernumber1

> Technically not death, with the hiatus retconned in place; but yeah. 
> 
> Really though, the part of that era that I find most objectionable was the “Bruce won't give her a chance, so Stephanie does something monumentally stupid” bit; i.e., how her career as Robin ended and how War Games started. Gloss over that the way Superman has glossed over pretty much everything pre-Flashpoint after Clark married Lois, and I'll be perfectly fine with it.
> 
> That said, restoring just the memories could work, _if a few others also have their corresponding memories restored_.  Stephanie encounters Damian; both of them remember the times when Batgirl-Stephanie teamed up with Damian.  Spoiler and Orphan hang out together and reminisce about when they first met up as Robin and Batgirl, respectively. (Incidentally, I'd love to have Cassandra's memories of her time as Batgirl restored too; but I'm fine if that largely excludes everything from One Year Later on.  That's where _she_ went off the rails.) More significantly, Stephanie and Wendy Harris encounter each other for the first time post-Flashpoint, and their shared memories of their pre-Flashpoint partnership rekindles it.  The events never happened; but the shared memories of the events still have consequences.


I think we can see that even if she was resuscitated, Steph's heart stopped in the finale of War Games. So technically dead. Yup.  :Smile: 

Yeah. I actually wouldn't mind War Games so much if they 1) didn't kill Steph, and 2) had Batman acknowledge that he failed Steph as much as Steph failed him. But instead, they killed her off, and blamed her for everything, up to and including her own death.

I think everyone should remember everything!  :Smile:  (including poor Cass and her League of Assassins goofiness.) Otherwise, how do we know not to repeat history?

----------


## dominus

> I think we can see that even if she was resuscitated, Steph's heart stopped in the finale of War Games. So technically dead. Yup. 
> 
> Yeah. I actually wouldn't mind War Games so much if they 1) didn't kill Steph, and 2) had Batman acknowledge that he failed Steph as much as Steph failed him. But instead, they killed her off, and blamed her for everything, up to and including her own death.
> 
> I think everyone should remember everything!  (including poor Cass and her League of Assassins goofiness.) Otherwise, how do we know not to repeat history?


The problem with any of this is the missing years where they de-aged people. (Sometimes by 2-3 years, sometimes by 10. WTF?)

Scrap the New 52 and Rebirth and just pick up where Post Crisis left off. Trying to align the timelines/Earths is totally impossible, and it's going to be so clunky that it's just going to result in more bad writing.

----------


## millernumber1

> The problem with any of this is the missing years where they de-aged people. (Sometimes by 2-3 years, sometimes by 10. WTF?)
> 
> Scrap the New 52 and Rebirth and just pick up where Post Crisis left off. Trying to align the timelines/Earths is totally impossible, and it's going to be so clunky that it's just going to result in more bad writing.


Eh, as long as I'm getting good stories, especially about Steph, and I don't mind.  :Smile:

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## Lhynn

> The problem with any of this is the missing years where they de-aged people. (Sometimes by 2-3 years, sometimes by 10. WTF?)
> 
> Scrap the New 52 and Rebirth and just pick up where Post Crisis left off. Trying to align the timelines/Earths is totally impossible, and it's going to be so clunky that it's just going to result in more bad writing.


Agree. Steph isnt steph anymore, theres absolutely nothing of the pre 52 character in this one besides the name and the hair.

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## millernumber1

> Agree. Steph isnt steph anymore, theres absolutely nothing of the pre 52 character in this one besides the name and the hair.


I can see that perspective, but I spent a lot of time digging up parallels between n52 Steph and 1990s Steph, and I think in general Tynion's been very intentional about what he's kept and what he's changed. I think the biggest thing that's changed is that she's no longer kept at arm's length by the Batfamily - which is a key component of her characterization in the 90s-early 00s, but I think also kept her from becoming the truly awesome heroine she should have been long before she became Batgirl.  I know you like the fact that she was a rebel, an outsider, and a screwup - but I thought most of those things came from editorial or authorial short-sightedness, and enjoy her being sassy and cheerful but not rejected anymore in current continuity.

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## Lhynn

> I can see that perspective, but I spent a lot of time digging up parallels between n52 Steph and 1990s Steph, and I think in general Tynion's been very intentional about what he's kept and what he's changed. I think the biggest thing that's changed is that she's no longer kept at arm's length by the Batfamily - which is a key component of her characterization in the 90s-early 00s, but I think also kept her from becoming the truly awesome heroine she should have been long before she became Batgirl.  I know you like the fact that she was a rebel, an outsider, and a screwup - but I thought most of those things came from editorial or authorial short-sightedness, and enjoy her being sassy and cheerful but not rejected anymore in current continuity.


Shes used to always have a bright disposition, she used to be fun, she used to overthink things, the most irrelevant things too, she was feminine and girly and not all that smart, she knew this, she accepted she was just like everybody else. It got her down but she kept trying, because it was her calling. She had low self steem but could be incredibly stubborn at times, and incredibly compliant at other times and it somehow it always remained completely in character.
She was clumsy and incredibly likeable, she made the worst choices with the best of intentions. She was honest and very transparent. She kept tim grounded, there was this batman and robin dynamic mixed in with their obvious attraction for eachother that went great with the darker and more serious tone Tim gave to the robin persona. 

I loved that character, i loved how she grew up, she basically made the entire batverse feel more real by merely being a part of it. She made other characters more likable by just interacting with her. Dixon was a genius.

I dont dislike new 52 steph, in fact i think shes pretty cool. It just isnt even remotely the same character.

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## millernumber1

> Shes used to always have a bright disposition, she used to be fun, she used to overthink things, the most irrelevant things too, she was feminine and girly and not all that smart, she knew this, she accepted she was just like everybody else. It got her down but she kept trying, because it was her calling. She had low self steem but could be incredibly stubborn at times, and incredibly compliant at other times and it somehow it always remained completely in character.
> She was clumsy and incredibly likeable, she made the worst choices with the best of intentions. She was honest and very transparent. She kept tim grounded, there was this batman and robin dynamic mixed in with their obvious attraction for eachother that went great with the darker and more serious tone Tim gave to the robin persona. 
> 
> I loved that character, i loved how she grew up, she basically made the entire batverse feel more real by merely being a part of it. She made other characters more likable by just interacting with her. Dixon was a genius.
> 
> I dont dislike new 52 steph, in fact i think shes pretty cool. It just isnt even remotely the same character.


I love this summary of her character, though it does leave out a bit of Steph's anger in the first three-five years of her existence (beating up her dad in Robin #16, almost leaving a thug to die in the snow in Final Night).  Dixon was, indeed, a genius - and in the case of Steph, an accidental one, since he always says she was intended as a one-off character.

Steph has had three main voices since she showed up in the n52 - Tynion's, Valentine's, and Fletcher/Stewart (and I would actually lump Tim Seeley in with those two, as when he wrote Steph in Batman and Robin Eternal, she felt very much of a piece with that characterization). Tynion's gone for some deep cut continuity references, but it was often hampered by Steph being in the background to Harper. Valentine's Steph was really hampered by the tone of the book she was writing - pitch-black noir isn't Steph's color at all. In interviews, Valentine seemed to get her right, and her one issue in Batman and Robin Eternal where she wrote Steph standing up to Scarecrow was solid (though going much more with "confident Steph" than what you pinpoint as Steph's balance between stubbornness and insecurity). Fletcher/Stewart really go for a shallow version of BQM's Steph - bubbly, enthusiastic, positive, hopeful, aware of her need for development but also incredibly gung ho about being a hero.

Tynion in Tec has done some odd things. I think the whole "Steph as genius" thing is really strange - I liked seeing her being awesome in Night of the Monster Men, but I would agree that it didn't feel like any version of Steph (even Tynion's Steph) to that point. I think, if you take Night of the Monster Men as a divergence that can be explained as "Orlando wrote her slightly wrong", Tynion's work with her in Tec is actually pretty much in line with her portrayal in Dixon's Robin run. She's funny, sweet, stubborn with Tim about condescension and standing up to Batman. The insecurity isn't there as much (partly because I think Tynion is deliberately toning it down because she's not an outsider anymore, partly because Tynion isn't having Bruce and Tim treat her like dirt anymore), but I think she's definitely still the Steph I love, and not just a Steph-in-name-and-hair-only.

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## Lhynn

I liked it when Tim treated her poorly, spoke for her and all that. It always felt like he was looking out for her when he did, like he was so worried hed rather her quit or haver her leave than get hurt. You could see there was a love and protectiveness that was both sweet and warranted, he felt responsible for her, he knew people more capable than her were getting killed left and right at the time and that really haunted him, because again, he felt her life was literally in his hands (and in a very real way it was, he introduced her to a larger and more dangerous world merely by hanging out with her, her father was one thing, but a lot of the threats he had to deal with could hurt her). Thats a lot of responsability for a 14 year old.

It harkens back to the Batman and Robin dynamic, batman was always protective of his robin, and this created a lot of friction between Bruce and Dick.

But also their whole dynamic betrayed a lot of elements that you can see in real life between parents and their sons or daughters, or anyone that feels responsible for a life. The reason for this was double, first, Steph needed someone to show her the way, her father was a bad apple and her mother didnt have the most stable history either. Second Tim was the first person to care (a person can go their whole life without ever once meeting someone that cares) and in the end their meeting shaped her life, for the better i think.

Obviously this went both ways, Steph taught Tim to teach, to lead, to be responsible of someone else. Taught him to be more himself, but also gave him a lot of confidence and more than once showed him how to be a better person. Without her he would have been lost, maybe even quit being robin altogether.

While it was an accident that her character was created, i think these elements and others that were added later were very much deliberate.

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## millernumber1

I think there were some benefits that you point out, but on the whole, I am stuck with your first phrase, "I liked it when Tim treated her poorly." I don't think characters treating other characters poorly is heroic or good - or healthy, relationship wise. You make some excellent points, but I'm just not on board with that.

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## Lhynn

> I think there were some benefits that you point out, but on the whole, I am stuck with your first phrase, "I liked it when Tim treated her poorly." I don't think characters treating other characters poorly is heroic or good - or healthy, relationship wise. You make some excellent points, but I'm just not on board with that.


Sometimes being nice just leads people to be self destructive. Its human nature, and there was a lot of that in steph. He contained her, protected her, taught her. and did it in a very effective way.

Ive been there, seen it happen, seen that being nice simply doesnt work. It certainly wouldnt have worked with her, she was far too stubborn for that.
There was a reason Dixon set their relationship the way he did, there was a reason it worked so beautifully in such a relatable way, it mirrored real life relationships without idealizing them.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Shes used to always have a bright disposition, she used to be fun, she used to overthink things, the most irrelevant things too, she was feminine and girly and not all that smart, she knew this, she accepted she was just like everybody else. It got her down but she kept trying, because it was her calling. She had low self steem but could be incredibly stubborn at times, and incredibly compliant at other times and it somehow it always remained completely in character.
> *She was clumsy and incredibly likeable, she made the worst choices with the best of intentions. She was honest and very transparent. She kept tim grounded, there was this batman and robin dynamic mixed in with their obvious attraction for eachother that went great with the darker and more serious tone Tim gave to the robin persona.* 
> 
> *I loved that character, i loved how she grew up, she basically made the entire batverse feel more real by merely being a part of it. She made other characters more likable by just interacting with her. Dixon was a genius.*
> 
> I dont dislike new 52 steph, in fact i think shes pretty cool. It just isnt even remotely the same character.


I loved the Dixon era. 
I'm missing the Batman and Robin dynamic (Batman needs Robin, dear Snyder), I'm missing Tim as Robin and his relationship with both Bruce and Steph.
Steph was an excellent character, she should have stayed as Batgirl. It was the right evolution and the correct final, sadly they managed to broke everything...

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## millernumber1

> Sometimes being nice just leads people to be self destructive. Its human nature, and there was a lot of that in steph. He contained her, protected her, taught her. and did it in a very effective way.
> 
> Ive been there, seen it happen, seen that being nice simply doesnt work. It certainly wouldnt have worked with her, she was far too stubborn for that.
> There was a reason Dixon set their relationship the way he did, there was a reason it worked so beautifully in such a relatable way, it mirrored real life relationships without idealizing them.


I mostly like how Dixon handled Steph, though I wasn't particularly happy about Tim hiding his name from her. I understand Dixon's reasoning, but I don't agree with it.  My opinion on secret identities is that they are usually engines of pointless drama, so I'm not particularly interested in them, and find their use in creating such pointless drama poor storytelling. Perhaps a bit counterfactual, but I think there is a legitimate argument against the whole secret identity being a plot point, and instead just being an accepted suspension of disbelief.




> I loved the Dixon era. 
> I'm missing the Batman and Robin dynamic (Batman needs Robin, dear Snyder), I'm missing Tim as Robin and his relationship with both Bruce and Steph.
> Steph was an excellent character, she should have stayed as Batgirl. It was the right evolution and the correct final, sadly they managed to broke everything...


I agree Steph should have stayed Batgirl - but I don't think it's necessarily broken anymore. She's got a very interesting storyline right now in Detective, and a lot of the stories she got over the past two years were pretty fun!

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## Lhynn

> I mostly like how Dixon handled Steph, though I wasn't particularly happy about Tim hiding his name from her. I understand Dixon's reasoning, but I don't agree with it.  My opinion on secret identities is that they are usually engines of pointless drama, so I'm not particularly interested in them, and find their use in creating such pointless drama poor storytelling. Perhaps a bit counterfactual, but I think there is a legitimate argument against the whole secret identity being a plot point, and instead just being an accepted suspension of disbelief.


He hid his name from everyone, even his closest friends and allies. Not because he wanted to, but because Bruce told him to. He bleed and almost died to keep that secret.
Besides, not telling your biggest secrets (if you have them) to some girl you fancy is alright.

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## millernumber1

I'm not necessarily faulting Tim for hiding his identity - I fault Bruce for it as well.  I just don't think it's good storytelling.

I don't have a problem with having privacy even when you are romantically involved with someone. I do have a problem when you demand complete lack of privacy from the partner, and keep a huge area of privacy from them. The lack of parity is the problem for me. If Tim and Steph were both in the dark about their identities, I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated with the situation.

(I should also note that my biggest problems with the way Steph was handled come from after Dixon left the book - the really weird Jon Lewis run, then the really crummy Willingham run, then the mediocre Nicieza run. I have some problems during the Dixon run, but it was clear that he had affection for Steph as a character, and plans to progress her as a hero. Everyone else just used her as a stepping stone for Tim or Bruce, which is bad writing.)

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## Lhynn

Well, support characters are just that, theres nothing wrong with using them as you see fit, as long as you keep them always in character. The problem was that steph was used poorly, she made some nonsensical calls she shouldnt have, all for the sake of cheap drama.

Tim didnt really ask her identity tho, he never really asked her to disclose anything, mostly because he already figured it out. At some point he had figured out most heroes secret identities. That he couldnt share his own identity due to an order from bruce was its own thing.

As for you thinking its not fair. Unno, Steph was the daughter of a two bit criminal, that got knocked up by a two bit redneck, also while risking her life to get back at her old man, her mother had a drug problem if i remember correctly. She wasnt on a good path. Suddenly this handsome guy comes knocking, a complete gentleman, he protects her, he teaches her, he listens to her, makes her feel special, he helps her with the pregancy, jumps through insane hoops for this, is there for her in a way she never experienced. I think she got lucky and she knew this.

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## millernumber1

I think Steph was lucky. I don't think we'll ever agree past that, though.  :Smile:

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## Lhynn

> I think Steph was lucky. I don't think we'll ever agree past that, though.


Hah, fair enough.

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## sunofdarkchild

> I'm not necessarily faulting Tim for hiding his identity - I fault Bruce for it as well.  I just don't think it's good storytelling.
> 
> I don't have a problem with having privacy even when you are romantically involved with someone. I do have a problem when you demand complete lack of privacy from the partner, and keep a huge area of privacy from them. The lack of parity is the problem for me. If Tim and Steph were both in the dark about their identities, I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated with the situation.
> 
> (I should also note that my biggest problems with the way Steph was handled come from after Dixon left the book - the really weird Jon Lewis run, then the really crummy Willingham run, then the mediocre Nicieza run. I have some problems during the Dixon run, but it was clear that he had affection for Steph as a character, and plans to progress her as a hero. Everyone else just used her as a stepping stone for Tim or Bruce, which is bad writing.)


I find the way their relationship developed during that period to be fascinating.  First Tim is (rightly) worried that their relationship is unfair to her and going out of his way to make up for it, while Steph's self-esteem is so low that she doesn't care and thinks he's too good for her.  After a while Tim gets used to the situation and starts taking it, and her, for granted.  And at that point Steph realizes how messed up it is and starts trying to find out his secret ID to make them equal in the relationship, and Tim has gotten so used to being the one with all the power that he doesn't understand why it can't go on that way.

The problem was the way Dixon (and later writers)handled Batman.  The way he revealed Tim's ID to Steph didn't work, and the way he trained her while Tim was mad at him and dumped her the moment Tim forgave him didn't work.  Tim's taking his anger at Batman out on Steph at the time also didn't make sense.

Looking back I think Steph should have figured out Tim's ID when his face was all over the tv during No Man's Land.  Dixon made a point that she'd recognize him if she saw him without the mask, but didn't follow through, and her figuring it out by accident would have made for a better story than the 5000th 'Batman is a douche' story.

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## millernumber1

> I find the way their relationship developed during that period to be fascinating.  First Tim is (rightly) worried that their relationship is unfair to her and going out of his way to make up for it, while Steph's self-esteem is so low that she doesn't care and thinks he's too good for her.  After a while Tim gets used to the situation and starts taking it, and her, for granted.  And at that point Steph realizes how messed up it is and starts trying to find out his secret ID to make them equal in the relationship, and Tim has gotten so used to being the one with all the power that he doesn't understand why it can't go on that way.
> 
> The problem was the way Dixon (and later writers)handled Batman.  The way he revealed Tim's ID to Steph didn't work, and the way he trained her while Tim was mad at him and dumped her the moment Tim forgave him didn't work.  Tim's taking his anger at Batman out on Steph at the time also didn't make sense.
> 
> Looking back I think Steph should have figured out Tim's ID when his face was all over the tv during No Man's Land.  Dixon made a point that she'd recognize him if she saw him without the mask, but didn't follow through, and her figuring it out by accident would have made for a better story than the 5000th 'Batman is a douche' story.


Very nice summary of the relationship!  To be fair to Dixon, most of the stuff near the end of his run, with Bruce revealing Tim's identity to her and then training her, was swallowed up by crossovers like Bruce Wayne: Murderer. That's the real reason he stopped training her - because once that crossover was done, Dixon was pretty much gone from DC, and no one cared enough about Steph to continue the arc he'd set her on. Instead, we got some messy wrapup issues by Scott Beatty, and Jon Lewis did...whatever it was he was doing with her in Robin for two years. Then came the buildup for War Games.

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## Dataweaver

IMHO, Jon Lewis was at his best when he was writing Tim and Stephanie, and he was doing a fine job developing Stephanie.  (This was as opposed to his fascination with injecting weirdness into the various antagonists Tim faced during his run.) Bill Willingham has a lot to answer for; but his first “crime” isn't really his fault: when he took over, Jon Lewis was right in the middle of a sort arc fleshing Stephanie's history and was fast approaching a crisis point. Suddenly that whole story arc got dropped cold; and when we next saw Stephanie, it was as if none of that had ever happened.  

_Robin_, the title, started a slow decline when Dixon left; but at least Lewis got Tim's and Stephanie's voices right. Willingham was where Tim's “insufferable know-it-all” persona began; and more on point, his run literally destroyed Stephanie.  I have nothing good to say about Willingham's treatment of his corner of the Batman universe.

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## sunofdarkchild

Lewis really tried to make Steph into a co-star rather than a supporting character.  His interpretation her and Tim's relationship remains my favorite.

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## millernumber1

> IMHO, Jon Lewis was at his best when he was writing Tim and Stephanie, and he was doing a fine job developing Stephanie.  (This was as opposed to his fascination with injecting weirdness into the various antagonists Tim faced during his run.) Bill Willingham has a lot to answer for; but his first “crime” isn't really his fault: when he took over, Jon Lewis was right in the middle of a sort arc fleshing Stephanie's history and was fast approaching a crisis point. Suddenly that whole story arc got dropped cold; and when we next saw Stephanie, it was as if none of that had ever happened.  
> 
> _Robin_, the title, started a slow decline when Dixon left; but at least Lewis got Tim's and Stephanie's voices right. Willingham was where Tim's “insufferable know-it-all” persona began; and more on point, his run literally destroyed Stephanie.  I have nothing good to say about Willingham's treatment of his corner of the Batman universe.


I tend to agree - but the weirdness of the villains/plotlines really makes the effect strangely unbalanced.

Willingham's Robin run is such a weird beast. On the one hand, I don't truly blame him for killing Steph, since he's said many times he wanted to keep her alive because the story was more interesting with her being trained by Batman than dying. On the other, he did write all the torture scenes, and even in the ramp-up to War Games, his villains are more nasty and sadistic than usually faced.  His Tim is, as you point out, also not nearly as likeable. Plus it all feels much sloppier and disposable than when Dixon was writing the title. Just not good craftsmanship on characters or plots.




> Lewis really tried to make Steph into a co-star rather than a supporting character.  His interpretation her and Tim's relationship remains my favorite.


I appreciated that, I just thought the plotlines of the stories were really weird and/or unengaging. It doesn't feel like a Robin or Batman comic, to me, and that makes all of Steph and Tim's scenes out of costume feel completely wrong - like they're part of another universe. I did like the sweetness of Lewis's Tim and Steph, though.

----------


## Dataweaver

A lot of people cited Stephanie's taking on the mantle of Robin as a major step forward for her (never mind that Willingham was using it to set her up for a fall).  Personally though, I preferred Lewis' take on Stephanie as Robin. It was part of the “World Without Young Justice” event where reality was altered so that the YJ boys never became superheroes. In Robin's case, we were treated to an alternate reality where Bruce came across Stephanie before Tim and recruited her as Robin to help her bring her father to justice. It was the second issue where Lewis got writing credit and the first issue where he got sole writing credit (as he shared his first issue with Dixon).  

And it was a nice preview of how he would handle Stephanie in his run: while he _could_ have written her as a screwup and it would have been consistent with the crossover's theme, he actually wrote her as a competent and accepted partner for Batman. Yeah, Lewis basically wrote _Robin_ as a dynamic duo book of Tim and Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> A lot of people cited Stephanie's taking on the mantle of Robin as a major step forward for her (never mind that Willingham was using it to set her up for a fall).  Personally though, I preferred Lewis' take on Stephanie as Robin. It was part of the “World Without Young Justice” event where reality was altered so that the YJ boys never became superheroes. In Robin's case, we were treated to an alternate reality where Bruce came across Stephanie before Tim and recruited her as Robin to help her bring her father to justice. It was the second issue where Lewis got writing credit and the first issue where he got sole writing credit (as he shared his first issue with Dixon).  
> 
> And it was a nice preview of how he would handle Stephanie in his run: while he _could_ have written her as a screwup and it would have been consistent with the crossover's theme, he actually wrote her as a competent and accepted partner for Batman. Yeah, Lewis basically wrote _Robin_ as a dynamic duo book of Tim and Stephanie.


Kind of amusingly, I just bought both Robin 101 (the Steph as Robin in World Without Young Justice) and Robin 126/127 (the first two of three issues of Willingham's Steph as Robin arc). (I'd read them before, but now I have them myself). It's a nice little issue, with an almost prescient idea of Steph's costume with the ninja mask, like her current Spoiler outfit. I do agree that Lewis wrote a good Steph (and the Woods as artists were top notch!), but the plots of the book itself were so out there and strange that it quickly fades from memory.

I think the reasons Willingham's Steph as Robin arc is so important to Steph fans are multiple:

1) This event was in main continuity (even though people expected it to be temporary), so it "mattered" in a way that the AU Steph as Robin by Lewis didn't.

2) Willingham was a "name" writer.

3) This got a huge amount of publicity as the lead-in to a major event (War Games).

4) It was the direct cause of Steph's death, leading to a very energized fanbase. The persistence of memory in pain.

Not necessarily great reasons, but I think it makes a lot of sense.

----------


## Caivu

Found this update in my Google Play library tonight:

Tec945.jpg

'Tec's hopping aboard the "word balloons on the cover" train.

----------


## millernumber1

> Found this update in my Google Play library tonight:
> 
> Tec945.jpg
> 
> 'Tec's hopping aboard the "word balloons on the cover" train.


Hmm. I'm not a fan of that. Feels too cheesy to me. But I do love that cover - Steph just looks so strong!

----------


## adrikito

After this chapter... I think that ALL THIS is an excuse for remove Steph of the team...  :Mad:  

Luke is now in the base(confirmed member, Tim replace) 

and Harper...  Sure, in the next saga is part of the team(Steph Replace)..  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

I still think Steph is going to come out the hero and find her reason to stay on the team.

----------


## Frontier

> Found this update in my Google Play library tonight:
> 
> Tec945.jpg
> 
> 'Tec's hopping aboard the "word balloons on the cover" train.


I guess it makes sense to have her saying something with the way her mouth is open on the cover, all accusatory towards Batman.

----------


## adrikito

> I still think Steph is going to come out the hero and find her reason to stay on the team.


I know the fact that Steph was with leslie in the past... maybe they repeat the same during his time away from the team ..

----------


## millernumber1

Ah, that's a very interesting suggestion! Well spotted!

----------


## adrikito

> Ah, that's a very interesting suggestion! Well spotted!


This seems made for it.

-Steph was in Leslie Clinic the previous chapter, Steph feels compassion for these people... 
*-Azrael talk about make Steph Voluntary..* Nothing FOR NOW..
-A possibly similar discussion(I don´t know) to post-crisis(when Black Mask beat up Steph) between Leslie and Batman, again Steph is in the clinic. 
-Now the VICTIM SYNDICATE(To think again in the victims of Gotham City crime) and Steph will have problems with Batman for the next covers..

and... Harper Voluntary... For use Harper again, they even can change roles(another reason for his return? no).. Harper with Batman, Steph with Leslie..  I'll end up surprised if I'm wrong ..

----------


## millernumber1

I hope you're not right, though - I want Steph to be a hero, fighting for what's right (and people who don't like purple). And much as I like Harper, I think she works better as a support character than a spotlight one. But I know many people love her.

----------


## millernumber1

Steph appeared as one of Nightwing's friends - and fairly prominently, too - in today's Nightwing! I wish Marcio Takara would draw her every day. His fan art/commissions of Steph as Spoiler, Robin, and Batgirl are still such excellent pieces - and his work for DC in single issues has been top notch, such as his issue of Batman and Robin Eternal #13. This issue was no exception!

Nightwing (2016-) 009-018.jpg

----------


## Lhynn

> (and people who don't like purple).


Its not purple, its egg plant.

----------


## millernumber1

> Its not purple, its egg plant.


Purple would have been stupid?  :Wink: 

I actually would disagree, though. Spoiler has only worn eggplant a few times, such as the 80 Page Giant Robin issue with Tim and Black Canary. She wears purple in almost all other colorings. Plus, the eggplant line comes from mashed potatoes is Steph's favorite food writer Jon Lewis, who isn't absolutely terrible as a writer, but is extremely weird and yet forgettable, so I pretty much overwrite his canon with any other canon when they contradict.

----------


## Lhynn

Thought it was a cute part of the character, the struggles of an E list hero, home made cheap costume, no real way to get around, and trying to get people to take her costume, and by extension her, seriously.
Sometimes i like to say Tim has a very humble origin, but you really cant beat steph at that. She came a long way pre flashpoint.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thought it was a cute part of the character, the struggles of an E list hero, home made cheap costume, no real way to get around, and trying to get people to take her costume, and by extension her, seriously.
> Sometimes i like to say Tim has a very humble origin, but you really cant beat steph at that. She came a long way pre flashpoint.


I do adore that aspect of the character, if not the specific detail.  :Smile: 

What are people's favorite nicknames for Steph? From n52/Rebirth, I like "Violet Vindicator" and "Purple Urbex Hobbyist"  :Smile:

----------


## Lhynn

uh, my favorte one is _"Batgirl"_

----------


## millernumber1

That's not a nickname! A nickname would be "Fatgirl" or "Girl Blunder" or something like that.  :Smile:  (That is my favorite identity of Steph's, though).

----------


## gwhh

Her official stats in 2004:



What issue are these from:

----------


## Caivu

> Shes a genius daughter of two genius. She can also make quality costumes out of thin air. This runs contrary to everything steph was pre flashpoint, but oh well.


When has she demonstrated being a genius? She's smart, sure, but she was before, too.

----------


## Lhynn

> When has she demonstrated being a genius? She's smart, sure, but she was before, too.


First eternal, not gonna go through eternal to get a scan, its too painful, but shes confirmed to have genius level intellect there, inherited from her super genius parents. Especially her mom, she is smarter than arthur.

----------


## RedQueen

> First eternal, not gonna go through eternal to get a scan, its too painful, but shes confirmed to have genius level intellect there, inherited from her super genius parents. Especially her mom, she is smarter than arthur.


I've hadn't heard of that till not but like serious? She's supposed to be up their with Tim and Babs? I don't really see her being as genius level. Not saying she isn't smart but that's a big leap and bound from pre flashpoint stephanie.

On a side note I'm saying anyone in the Batfam is of low intelligence. I'm just saying Babs and Tim are the big brains besides Bruce. Everyone on the Batfam has got to have some sort of standard of intellect just to simply keep up with their daily dealings. And everyone is smarter in certain areas too e.g. Jason might know how to handle something that Tim doesn't have any experience with and so on.... I'm just saying when you're talking the genius intellect that is the Bruce, Barbara and and Tim kind of genius and then whacking that label on Stephanie it seems actually out of character for her to be on that level without, as TV Tropes calls it, an @s$pull. I swear I'm not picky about the Batfam's intellect but I thought the charm of Stephanie was that she wasn't all the things that's typical in the superhero genre, at least that's what I've read on these boards.

----------


## gwhh

Super Steph Series pt 1-3- Kidnappings and first dates.

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/106069.html

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/105064.html

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/105498.html

Interesting Ideas here:

https://arousinggrammar.com/2013/01/...and-red-robin/

Robin 80 Page Big Book:

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1...thread=1366578

----------


## Caivu

> First eternal, not gonna go through eternal to get a scan, its too painful, but shes confirmed to have genius level intellect there, inherited from her super genius parents. Especially her mom, she is smarter than arthur.


Well, without seeing a scan, I don't believe that. I can't remember anything at all about her being a genius, even if her parents were. She certainly hasn't demonstrated that kind of intellect anywhere that I'm aware of. She's bright, but not a genius.

----------


## millernumber1

> Her official stats in 2004:
> 
> 
> 
> What issue are these from:


That would be Batgirl 22, where she goes to England for Batman Inc, and teams up with Squire.

----------


## Frontier

Reminds me that I miss Beryl...

----------


## Red obin

I get upset that Steph's character seems to always regress back to her spoiler days. I loved her as batgirl and despite that the new 52 version is still good(as long as she doesn't go sad and broody like detective comics) it is not the same as her batgirl days. She always returns to Spoiler and the same can be said about nightwing yet I don't seem to mind with dick but I am bothered when it comes to Steph.

Spoiler>Robin>spoiler>batgirl>spoiler

I'm rambling now and I hope people understand what I'm talking about.

----------


## Lhynn

DC is afraid to develop any of their characters past their most popular and well known phase. And takes it back constantly. its frankly annoying.

----------


## Caivu

The entire team is on the cover of Detective Comics #950... except Steph (and Tim, obviously). Azrael seems to have taken her place.

DETECTIVE_950.jpg

----------


## Frontier

Jean-Paul joining the team kinda offsets the equal gender-ratio the roster had before, especially if he's taking Spoiler's spot...

----------


## berserkerclaw

I wouldnt entirely say she off the team because of one cover. I feel Tynion has a plan and if she stays gone i see especially when Red Robin returns steph will be there

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Jean-Paul joining the team kinda offsets the equal gender-ratio the roster had before, especially if he's taking Spoiler's spot...


More pertinent to story telling is that it also offsets the power balance. Clayface, Batman, Azrael, Cass and Batwing on the same team= rather overpowered team, throw in Batwoman and it's unfair.

----------


## Aahz

> More pertinent to story telling is that it also offsets the power balance. Clayface, Batman, Azrael, Cass and Batwing on the same team= rather overpowered team, throw in Batwoman and it's unfair.


We have to see, Batwing was imo never really impressive sofar and it is not really clear if the new 52 Azrael has the same powers as the old version and how stable this powers are if he has them.
It also depends on what they are going up against, Cass was for example the least use full team member in Night of the Monster man since her martial arts skills are useless against Kaijus.

----------


## millernumber1

I am also worried that Steph isn't on the cover, but I will hope that Tynion loves Steph enough to keep her in the book.

----------


## adrikito

We will see the New CONFIGURATION of the team... No Tim, No Steph...   :Frown: 


*Who will be the next in leave the team? CASSANDRA CAIN... This is his saga. Tim and Steph fall when they had a Great Role... * 

In the first chapter we see that *she want a life, not only fight against the crime*... I think that exist the *possibility that Cass will leave the heroic life some time* after this saga...

----------


## millernumber1

Well, after almost a year of Steph being on the inside of Batman's circle, it feels like she is back to War Games Era relationships. Which is worrying, when combined with her disappearance on the cover of 950. I appreciate Tynion's understanding of Steph's character and history, but...I'be seen two generations of Steph fans leave DC comics because of War Games and N52 treating her poorly. I really don't want a third.  :Frown:

----------


## Lhynn

Shes not being treated poorly tho, shes just really hurting. A very understandable raction for someone in her place. Its welcome character development and well see how it plays out, but i do believe shell be leaving the team for a while after this.

----------


## millernumber1

> I get upset that Steph's character seems to always regress back to her spoiler days. I loved her as batgirl and despite that the new 52 version is still good(as long as she doesn't go sad and broody like detective comics) it is not the same as her batgirl days. She always returns to Spoiler and the same can be said about nightwing yet I don't seem to mind with dick but I am bothered when it comes to Steph.
> 
> Spoiler>Robin>spoiler>batgirl>spoiler
> 
> I'm rambling now and I hope people understand what I'm talking about.


I agree. I am happy that she exists as Spoiler, instead of being Batgirl and only existing in an AU, but I wish she could be part of a League of Batgirls like in Future's End (which I think Fletcher was developing towards in the last arc of Batgirl). I am really happy she is part of the boot camp now, but I worry her break from the team (speculation) will stall her development.




> Shes not being treated poorly tho, shes just really hurting. A very understandable raction for someone in her place. Its welcome character development and well see how it plays out, but i do believe shell be leaving the team for a while after this.


I agree she isn't being treated poorly (by Batman, at least - the villains are messing with her). I like the development too - it's very interesting to see her theorize that Batman is playing Avengers Academy. I just hope Tynion keeps her as a character even if she leaves the team for a time. Steph deserves to be in an ongoing, especially with all the work Tynion has put into her.

----------


## Red obin

Here is some Phil Cho Steph for you all, i love the way he draws Steph as robin.
robin_4_0__stephanie_brown__commission_by_phil_cho-d9jjqa3.jpg
d6579bf0868b836fc28df6a72d26bac1.jpgf8f5c8ce78796783885dd28b73353128.jpg

----------


## Red obin

and some more1449581026007.jpgbatgirl__stephanie_brown_by_phil_cho-d5ytizb.jpgspoiler__stephanie_brown_by_qbatmanp-d54ia8l.jpg

----------


## adrikito

I see that images in* Deviantart.*.. Are a good work..

One user has very good images of the batman family(pre-flashpoint), another heroes and villains.. with name ORACLE FILES.. Maybe the same of these images for this example:

oracle_files___stephanie_brown_2015_2016_by_roysovitch-d9kajnn.jpg

more examples:

https://www.google.es/search?q=devia...ih=602#imgrc=_

----------


## millernumber1

> Here is some Phil Cho Steph for you all, i love the way he draws Steph as robin.
> robin_4_0__stephanie_brown__commission_by_phil_cho-d9jjqa3.jpg
> d6579bf0868b836fc28df6a72d26bac1.jpgf8f5c8ce78796783885dd28b73353128.jpg


Yup, he's a great Steph artist!

Tynion gave an interview about #945 here: http://www.blastr.com/2016-11-21/det...es-t-tynion-iv, in which he promises that Steph having a huge arc, which The Victim Syndicate is just a launching point, not a conclusion. So even if, as seems likely, she leaves the team, she'll be back!

----------


## joybeans

https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Steph...dp/1401269109/

Thought this might be of interest.

----------


## Frontier

Cool to see they're collecting Steph's Batgirl run again  :Smile: .

----------


## Lhynn

> I see that images in* Deviantart.*.. Are a good work..
> 
> One user has very good images of the batman family(pre-flashpoint), another heroes and villains.. with name ORACLE FILES.. Maybe the same of these images for this example:
> 
> oracle_files___stephanie_brown_2015_2016_by_roysovitch-d9kajnn.jpg


Tim is using his new 52 costume there.
Otherwise its really good, been reading some. Theres a fanfiction gallery i think.

----------


## millernumber1

> https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Steph...dp/1401269109/
> 
> Thought this might be of interest.


OOOOH!

But also, Awww. I just bought Steph's Batgirl volumes 1, 2, and 3, plus her issue of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, and the first two trades of Red Robin, which include Steph's crossover (#8). Now I'm really torn...maybe they'll make it easy for me, and give me bonus features!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Tim is using his new 52 costume there.
> Otherwise its really good, been reading some. Theres a fanfiction gallery i think.


All Is invented... If I remember correctly, bruce  is over 40 years old here and *Damian 16 years*.. In images of the civil life of the heroes...in one universe called Earth 27..

----------


## Aahz

> I see that images in* Deviantart.*One user has very good images of the batman family(pre-flashpoint), another heroes and villains.. with name ORACLE FILES.. Maybe the same of these images for this example:


Earth 27 is more an AU that takes elements from different continuities and some original stuff. 
Tim's robin design is for example clearly based on the Young Justice series.

----------


## gwhh

About time she can to this conclusion and told Bruce off:

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6565380.html

----------


## adrikito

Yes, he put earth 27:

http://roysovitch.deviantart.com/art...E-v3-648748434

Like a continuation of Post-crisis world with elements of N52..

----------


## millernumber1

> About time she can to this concussion and told Bruce off:
> 
> https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6565380.html


I thought Steph's Avenger's Academy thoughts were interesting, but I disagree with her. I don't think she's necessarily wrong, so much as Batman is always doing things for many, many reasons - he formed the bootcamp because of the threat of the Colony, and because he wanted to set them on the right paths, and because he cared about each of them.

----------


## Lhynn

Shouldnt the title of this thread be

Spoiler, Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, Spoiler again?

----------


## millernumber1

> Shouldnt the title of this thread be
> 
> Spoiler, Robin, Spoiler, Batgirl, Spoiler again?


I mean, to be fully accurate, yes, but she didn't have really that many significant storylines for herself between her time as Robin and her time as Batgirl. To me, War Games/Crimes is really a Robin story for Steph (highlighted by the famous Jock cover for War Crimes where she's lying dead as Robin), and her return, while important for her future development (obviously, since she can't have a future if she's dead  :Smile: , is a fun story, but not really anything other than a fun retcon with classic Chuck Dixon writing. Her time as Robin and her time as Batgirl were major definite storylines for Steph, in contrast.

I mean, the thread title is already pretty long.  :Smile:

----------


## Lhynn

Im just joking, i loved her Batgirl, but calling her Robin is like calling Helena Batgirl, isnt it?
Also if there was a thing War Games wasnt, is a story about steph, especially not steph as robin.

----------


## millernumber1

> Im just joking, i loved her Batgirl, but calling her Robin is like calling Helena Batgirl, isnt it?
> Also if there was a thing War Games wasnt, is a story about steph, especially not steph as robin.


Eh, I think there's a difference between Helena's self-appointed and ultimately rejected bid for the Bat approval, and Steph's three months of approved (even if for manipulative reasons) time as Robin. In every reference work, and when Steph tended to introduce herself in the Batgirl series, is considered "part of the legend."

I know I'm biased about War Games, but I do think that it's as much a story about Steph as any non-Batman character, and it's directly because of her time as Robin. Plus, your assertion completely overlooks the War Crimes cover by Jock.

----------


## adrikito

Even if this never happen(During rebirth)... I liked the comment of James Tynion IV:

*
I want a robust version of Spoiler in Gotham that could have her own series.*

We hope this.. One day..

----------


## millernumber1

> Even if this never happen(During rebirth)... I liked the comment of James Tynion IV:
> 
> *
> I want a robust version of Spoiler in Gotham that could have her own series.*
> 
> We hope this.. One day..


YUP! Steph solo series!

----------


## Frontier

Be interesting to see how a Steph solo as Spoiler would be like now compared to her run as Batgirl, and what kind of status quo she would be left in for it after leaving the 'Tec team.

----------


## millernumber1

> Be interesting to see how a Steph solo as Spoiler would be like now compared to her run as Batgirl, and what kind of status quo she would be left in for it after leaving the 'Tec team.


I would think it might be very similar to the Robin title - or perhaps the current Raven miniseries - she gets a new status quo and has to form her own group and fight there.

----------


## Frontier

> I would think it might be very similar to the Robin title - or perhaps the current Raven miniseries - she gets a new status quo and has to form her own group and fight there.


Do you mean Dixon Robin and Yost/Nicieza Red Robin, or Robin as in Damian? 

And by group do you mean supporting cast or her own team like the 'Tec group? Would she try to make the kind of vigilante group she would want to be a part of?

----------


## millernumber1

> Do you mean Dixon Robin and Yost/Nicieza Red Robin, or Robin as in Damian? 
> 
> And by group do you mean supporting cast or her own team like the 'Tec group? Would she try to make the kind of vigilante group she would want to be a part of?


Dixon. The kid vigilante on their own in Gotham feels much more like where Steph is these days. And I mean developing a supporting cast, like Tim did in the 90s, including Steph herself.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> YUP! Steph solo series!


*
After Detective Comics 946 end I think... that this ROBUST VERSION OF SPOILER exist*.. Even she looks awesome in DC 947 cover, my avatar... The next, is make this serie one day..

----------


## gwhh

Her theme song could be.  You only hurt the ones you love!

----------


## millernumber1

Ahahaha, that's hilarious! Though she does plenty of whacking folk who aren't Tim, too!

----------


## adrikito

HAHAHAHAHA.. 

Impossible... It's impossible not laugh with her.. SHE GIVES HOPE and OPTIMIST(IN GOTHAM... Gotham city).. 

steph.jpg


IS LIKE A BLUE LANTERN.

0ec646ecbf4a2a8d5d67607d7da4d07a.jpg

----------


## adrikito

*Which is your favorite, Steph as Spoiler, Robin or Batgirl?

JamesTynionIV:* Steph as Spoiler. I loved her graduating to Batgirl, but her role as Spoiler was unique and something the Bat-Universe has been missing

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...792769?lang=es

Yes, All Steph fans knows that she is unique.. From my part:

Spoiler2.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> *Which is your favorite, Steph as Spoiler, Robin or Batgirl?
> 
> JamesTynionIV:* Steph as Spoiler. I loved her graduating to Batgirl, but her role as Spoiler was unique and something the Bat-Universe has been missing
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...792769?lang=es
> 
> From my part:
> 
> Spoiler2.jpg


Ahahaha, so funny. Well done, adrikito!

I personally love Steph as all of her identities, but I think Batgirl the most, because my favorite stories are mostly from that era.

----------


## dietrich

I prefer Steph as Batgirl.

----------


## adrikito

This will be his last time in the Current BAT-Team..I hope that DC doesn´t disappoint me in Detective Comics 947 with Steph ..




> Ahahaha, so funny. Well done, adrikito!
> 
> I personally love Steph as all of her identities, but I think Batgirl the most, because my favorite stories are mostly from that era.


I see her in two identities.. *For this I change my mind.. I want she again like batgirl? No, no matter I love the character.. No matter his identity, even if the identity change for.... VioletBird (for example) I would continue with her..* 

THANKS... When I saw the image I had an idea.. and yes... Was perfect for that...

----------


## millernumber1

> I met Spoiler in N52 in Batman Eternal(After that I followed his next appearances).. 
> 
> After read all her batgirl volume.. I see even Batgirl Convergence..
> 
> I also wanted her as a batgirl.. one reason a Steph comic and maybe... another reason is because I think his comic would lose the burnside style that DC gave to barbara.. Although, Spoiler was funny in his appearances in batgirl of burnside comic..
> 
> But with the time I see that I know the character as Spoiler, and she is spoiler.. But *if she return to batgirl mantle I will be happy too.. The evolution of the character made Steph one batgirl..*
> 
> This will be his last time in the Current BAT-Team..I hope that DC doesn´t disappoint me in Detective Comics 947 with Steph ..
> ...


You are so right. I would totally follow the adventures of VioletBird, or PurpleWing, or Eggplant Corsair  :Wink: .  I just happen to think the stories she had during her time as Batgirl (Batgirl Rising, Collision, The Flood, and The Lesson) are some of the best she ever had.

I'm so happy you got to know Steph in Eternal - I'd loved her since her time as Robin/War Games, and despite a lot of claims that "n52 Steph isn't like old Steph," I think they're the same character, and love her the most.

----------


## millernumber1

Welp, I like to think I was right in my prediction after last issue, that Steph was going to choose marginalization from the Batfamily. I love the moments where she looks at pictures of herself and Tim - very consistent with her duckfacing back in Eternal.

I'm kinda sad that her full head mask is back, but it does make her return to her Dixon status quo feel more authentic, I guess. And I loved that she left the family in a blaze of fury and badassery.

----------


## adrikito

> You are so right. I would totally follow the adventures of VioletBird, or PurpleWing, or Eggplant Corsair .  I just happen to think the stories she had during her time as Batgirl (Batgirl Rising, Collision, The Flood, and The Lesson) are some of the best she ever had.
> 
> I'm so happy you got to know Steph in Eternal - I'd loved her since her time as Robin/War Games, and despite a lot of claims that "n52 Steph isn't like old Steph," I think they're the same character, and love her the most.



hm..... Eggplant Corsair... It's a very strange name... I prefer your PurpleWING..

----------


## millernumber1

> hm..... Eggplant Corsair... It's a very strange name... I prefer your PurpleWING..


Hehe, I stole that from the fanfic Miseracordia by Hinn_Raven on AO3 (https://archiveofourown.org/series/58289).

----------


## Red obin

Loved the re appearance of her classic mask with a dark twist. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Loved the re appearance of her classic mask with a dark twist.


I like the idea of the classic mask as a development in her character. It's always struck me as kind of inappropriate for the cheery, quippy Steph. But this move makes sense.

----------


## adrikito

> Loved the re appearance of her classic mask with a dark twist.


Despite I liked his rebirth mask because I can see his face.. 

I was surprised how much I liked it too.. My idol of marvel Spiderman is the responsible of this.. I likes these funny colorful characters and this masks..

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite I liked his rebirth mask because I can see his face.. 
> 
> I was surprised how much I liked it too.. My idol of marvel Spiderman is the responsible of this.. I likes these funny colorful characters and this masks..


Agreed - I liked Steph being relateable and funny with the ninja mask.

----------


## adrikito

> Agreed - I liked Steph being relateable and funny with the ninja mask.


The Purple Ninja(girl):

stock-vector-ninja-girl-vector-illustration-3636009.jpg

The best FUNNY approximation I have found

----------


## gwhh

Love this one of her:

----------


## millernumber1

> Love this one of her


Always and forever! I desperately hope they include this with her reprinted trades next year.

----------


## Atlanta96

So I'm reading the Cataclysm trade, and it contains a Dixon penned one-shot of Spoiler teaming up with Huntress after the quake. Good stuff.

IMG_7937.jpg
IMG_7935.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> So I'm reading the Cataclysm trade, and it contains a Dixon penned one-shot of Spoiler teaming up with Huntress after the quake. Good stuff.


That's a great story! And one of the only times we meet Steph's non-Tim boyfriend!

Here's our write up of the issue, for those not in the know  :Smile:  http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...:_Blunt_Trauma

----------


## Frontier

> So I'm reading the Cataclysm trade, and it contains a Dixon penned one-shot of Spoiler teaming up with Huntress after the quake. Good stuff.
> 
> IMG_7937.jpg
> IMG_7935.jpg


Yeah, I really liked that story too  :Smile: . 

Spoiler and Huntress together is an unexpected pairing but Dixon (per usual) makes it work, and I liked Steph's conflict over her dad in that story and how that conflicts with Huntress.




> That's a great story! And one of the only times we meet Steph's non-Tim boyfriend!
> 
> Here's our write up of the issue, for those not in the know  http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...:_Blunt_Trauma


I didn't even know Steph had a wiki  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I really liked that story too . 
> 
> Spoiler and Huntress together is an unexpected pairing but Dixon (per usual) makes it work, and I liked Steph's conflict over her dad in that story and how that conflicts with Huntress.
> 
> I didn't even know Steph had a wiki .


Well, I don't normally plug it outside of my signature, but this was too big an opportunity.  :Wink:

----------


## Harpsikord

You know, I really hope that Steph's new status quo is temporary. This arc was supposed to be centered on her and it was to a point, but I can't help but feel like (as a long time Steph fan) this is kind of a slap in the face - Tynion literally killed Tim, so I guess I know how they feel in knowing that the character is ostensibly "gone" but that they will be appearing periodically as the title actually goes on. That said, I think it would be best if Steph went back to actually being Steph in much the same way that she left the batfam; a blaze of glory.

It would honestly be THE Steph thing to do to realize that she's made a mistake when she sees her friends getting the crap beat out of them and jump in to save the day.

----------


## adrikito

> So I'm reading the Cataclysm trade, and it contains a Dixon penned one-shot of Spoiler teaming up with Huntress after the quake. Good stuff.
> 
> Attachment 43258
> Attachment 43259


Seems Funny..

----------


## millernumber1

> You know, I really hope that Steph's new status quo is temporary. This arc was supposed to be centered on her and it was to a point, but I can't help but feel like (as a long time Steph fan) this is kind of a slap in the face - Tynion literally killed Tim, so I guess I know how they feel in knowing that the character is ostensibly "gone" but that they will be appearing periodically as the title actually goes on. That said, I think it would be best if Steph went back to actually being Steph in much the same way that she left the batfam; a blaze of glory.
> 
> It would honestly be THE Steph thing to do to realize that she's made a mistake when she sees her friends getting the crap beat out of them and jump in to save the day.


I don't think it's quite a slap - I think Tynion is deliberately re-creating the 90s status quo, where Steph was on the outside, but this time, he's doing so to give Steph a choice, rather than have Batman tell her she's not good enough. But I do agree that I don't want Steph to be gone, since she doesn't have another book she will regularly appear in, and completely agree that having her return to save the day would be perfect.

----------


## James Hunter

> You know, I really hope that Steph's new status quo is temporary. This arc was supposed to be centered on her and it was to a point, but I can't help but feel like (as a long time Steph fan) this is kind of a slap in the face - Tynion literally killed Tim, so I guess I know how they feel in knowing that the character is ostensibly "gone" but that they will be appearing periodically as the title actually goes on. That said, I think it would be best if Steph went back to actually being Steph in much the same way that she left the batfam; a blaze of glory.
> 
> It would honestly be THE Steph thing to do to realize that she's made a mistake when she sees her friends getting the crap beat out of them and jump in to save the day.


I'm also an old Steph fan and I have to say I really didn't consider this issue a slap in the face (I waited until I could actually read it myself before commenting).  

Steph is obviously grieving for Tim so some of her naivity gets some understanding from me for that and I actually like the idea of Steph operating on her own  with less direct supervision from Batman

I recall Tynion saying somewhere (I think it may have been on twitter) that he wanted to set each character he uses in DETECTIVE to a place where they could lead a solo series and to me, he has done wthis with Steph.

When Tim is back I'm sure Steph will come running back but in the meantime it will be interesting to see her doing some growing on her own away from the Bat-family IMHO.

Cheers.

James.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm also an old Steph fan and I have to say I really didn't consider this issue a slap in the face (I waited until I could actually read it myself before commenting).  
> 
> Steph is obviously grieving for Tim so some of her naivity gets some understanding from me for that and I actually like the idea of Steph operating on her own  with less direct supervision from Batman
> 
> I recall Tynion saying somewhere (I think it may have been on twitter) that he wanted to set each character he uses in DETECTIVE to a place where they could lead a solo series and to me, he has done wthis with Steph.
> 
> When Tim is back I'm sure Steph will come running back but in the meantime it will be interesting to see her doing some growing on her own away from the Bat-family IMHO.
> 
> Cheers.
> ...


Excellent points! I think Steph operating on her own is an important part of her development into the awesomeness that is Batgirl (not that Spoiler isn't awesome, but I think there's a great line of development from 1992-2011). I don't know if Steph will come running, but I hope it leads to a strong reconciliation.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

I think the hole plot would have made more sense with Harper and Steph switching roles.

----------


## Caivu

> I think the hole plot would have made more sense with Harper and Steph switching roles.


What plot hole?

----------


## ProgmanX

> What plot hole?


They meant "whole plot"; just missed the 'w' there.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think the hole plot would have made more sense with Harper and Steph switching roles.


But I like Steph more than Harper.  :Smile:  I mean, I enjoy Harper most of the time, but Steph is why I started reading Tec.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> They meant "whole plot"; just missed the 'w' there.


Exactly.

But really, Harpers mom died due to Batman trying  to take down mother, which would giver her a much better reason to go in that direction. And the Tech stuff is also more her thing than Stephs (I still think that Steph beeing a Tech genius doesn't really fit her character).

Steph on the other hand has already worked for Leslie.

----------


## millernumber1

> Exactly.
> 
> But really, Harpers mom died due to Batman trying  to take down mother, which would giver her a much better reason to go in that direction. And the Tech stuff is also more her thing than Stephs (I still think that Steph beeing a Tech genius doesn't really fit her character).
> 
> Steph on the other hand has already worked for Leslie.


I mean, you're not wrong per se, but I don't think I'd want to see Harper's development from BRE thrown away, whereas Steph really needs a plot, since she's been bouncing around as a supporting character since the first Eternal ended. Plus, this really puts her on her own path, similar to the way she was in Dixon's Robin, but instead of Batman putting her down all the time, she's making her own decisions. I quite like it.

----------


## Caivu

> Exactly.
> 
> But really, Harpers mom died due to Batman trying  to take down mother, which would giver her a much better reason to go in that direction. And the Tech stuff is also more her thing than Stephs (I still think that Steph beeing a Tech genius doesn't really fit her character).
> 
> Steph on the other hand has already worked for Leslie.


Batman's involvement in Miranda Row's death was _minor_ at best. And there's no reason why Harper would know about it his role in the first place.

And Steph and Harper don't have the same type of tech specialization. Steph is software, Harper is hardware.

----------


## Aahz

> Batman's involvement in Miranda Row's death was _minor_ at best. And there's no reason why Harper would know about it his role in the first place.


Didn't she learned that in B&RE?




> And Steph and Harper don't have the same type of tech specialization. Steph is software, Harper is hardware.


The whole tech specialization doesn't seem right for Steph imo.
There are way to many tech guys at the moment in the Batfamily.

----------


## millernumber1

> Didn't she learned that in B&RE?
> 
> The whole tech specialization doesn't seem right for Steph imo.
> There are way to many tech guys at the moment in the Batfamily.


Again, you're not wrong per se. But I will make the same argument for Steph that I make for n52 Tim. No, it's not the same as his 1990s origin - but if you think of Tim having started in 2010ish, his specialization in tech makes a lot more sense. And Steph explicitly mentions Tim's training in her skill and feats with tech.

----------


## Caivu

> Didn't she learned that in B&RE?


Not that I can recall, no. And even if she did, so? Again, minor, incredibly minor role in the best case. Batman really had nothing to do with Miranda's death.

----------


## Red obin

What I found interesting about the arc was how we see Steph react to Tim's death and how it is very different to how Tim reacted to Steph's death years ago. Interesting neither of them really died.

----------


## millernumber1

> What I found interesting about the arc was how we see Steph react to Tim's death and how it is very different to how Tim reacted to Steph's death years ago. Interesting neither of them really died.


Ooooh, good point. I think it's because instead of being a plot point forced on the writers by editorial to get rid of Spoiler's character forever (leading to trying to ignore it on the most part so people weren't bummed out), it's a plot point chosen by the editors and volunteered for by Tynion, who is a fan of the character of Tim (and Steph) and developed into a long-term plan for the title and characters. Plus, we didn't know that Steph wasn't dead for over 4 years.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...54691291762688

Confirmation that Steph isn't disappearing - this is the start of her story, not the end!

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...54691291762688
> 
> Confirmation that Steph isn't disappearing - this is the start of her story, not the end!


 :Embarrassment:   :Cool:   :Big Grin: 

Although in certain way.. I expected to continue to see her, with Stephanie role in the clinic of Dr. Thompkins..

But it's good hear that confirmation

----------


## The Whovian

> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...54691291762688
> 
> Confirmation that Steph isn't disappearing - this is the start of her story, not the end!


Awesome news!

----------


## millernumber1

Saw this in the Babs thread, and wanted to find the source:

Batgirl club.jpg

http://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com/post...missions-a-few

Reminded me of probably my favorite issue of Batgirl from the past several years:

Batgirl---Futures-End-001-(2014)-(Digital)-(Nahga-Empire)-001.jpg.jpg

----------


## Frontier

It's almost kind of creepy how adorable that version of Cass is  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> It's almost kind of creepy how adorable that version of Cass is .


Why creepy? Steph and Cass have always been adorable - Damion Scott drew them super cute.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Why creepy? Steph and Cass have always been adorable - Damion Scott drew them super cute.


I don't know, it's just feels..weird, to see someone take Cass's Batgirl look and make it cute  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know, it's just feels..weird, to see someone take Cass's Batgirl look and make it cute .


They did it with Tiny Titans, too  :Smile: 

tt_45_005.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> They did it with Tiny Titans, too 
> 
> tt_45_005.jpg


She looks like Scarecrow (no disrespect to Baltazar or Fanco)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> She looks like Scarecrow (no disrespect to Baltazar or Fanco) .


 :Smile:  I suppose. But a very cute Scarecrow!

----------


## millernumber1

No Steph this week :,(, so I thought I'd provide some content.

Anyone into Heroclix, or buy Heroclix because they're the only ones who have Steph action figures that aren't a hundred dollars?

http://wizkids.com/heroclix/dc-comics-heroclix-batgirl/

I managed to find this set on ebay pretty cheap!

86xHzM69.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Oooh, stumbled upon this review of the upcoming 50 year celebration of Batgirl: http://www.westfieldcomics.com/blog/...n-of-50-years/

Steph gets #4 and #13, both very nice self contained stories that showcase the major artists (Lee Garbett and Pere Perez). I would have gone for #3 and #14, myself - #3 has Steph and Barbara taking the oath together, and Steph beating Scarecrow - but it’s not very standalone, and #4 has the positive reinforcement thing, so I’m okay with it. #13 is Steph vs. Clayface, while #14 is Steph and Kara teaming up (though #14 has art by Garbett again, and they might have wanted to showcase Perez, who provided the second most number of issues, including the finale. (I would have gone with the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, which came right after #14, because slapping Bruce is never not great, but that’s part of another event, so…eh).

What are other people’s thoughts about which issues of Steph you would include?

----------


## Chickfighter

I agree with the stories you mentioned. There is is also #18 with Klarion that was pretty cool, but my personal favorite is probably Morrison's Leviathon Strikes entry from Batman Inc. drawn by Cameron Stewart even though by the time it came out it was bittersweet to see it.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree with the stories you mentioned. There is is also #18 with Klarion that was pretty cool, but my personal favorite is probably Morrison's Leviathon Strikes entry from Batman Inc. drawn by Cameron Stewart even though by the time it came out it was bittersweet to see it.


I like the Batman Inc special starring Steph, but I'm glad that it seems to be two stories by BQM, since he's the one who really made Steph as Batgirl the great thing she was. Morrison just used Steph - BQM made her wonderful.

----------


## millernumber1

Confirmation!

https://twitter.com/bryanQmiller/sta...39917437124608

Batgirl #4 (Batgirl's first night out as an approved, officially outfitted Batgirl) and #13 (where she fights Clayface) are included in this collection! Can't wait to read the introduction!

----------


## Nick Miller

FINALLY!!!

https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Steph...FEQ353QHJ1C2R5

----------


## millernumber1

> FINALLY!!!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Steph...FEQ353QHJ1C2R5


Indeed! I am very torn, because I literally just bought all of Steph's starring turns as Batgirl (Batgirl Rising, The Flood, and The Lesson, in addition the single issue Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl, Batman, Inc: Leviathan Strikes, and Red Robin: Collision). If the reprint goes the same way as the Cass Cain Batgirl reprints, it won't have any added content to make re-buying necessary, though - which pains me, as I'd like to support BQM and encourage DC to make more. Maybe if the trades go on sale on Comixology, I'll pick them up.

----------


## adrikito

Thanks for the information..

----------


## The Whovian

YES! Finally! I've been waiting for this to come in a collected edition.

----------


## millernumber1

> YES! Finally! I've been waiting for this to come in a collected edition.


 :Smile:  It's worth it if you don't have them already. So worth it!

----------


## Nick Miller

Yeah, i am missing the first 5-6 issues.

And the first trade has been OOP, going for big bucks on secondary market.

So this will be great for me

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, i am missing the first 5-6 issues.
> 
> And the first trade has been OOP, going for big bucks on secondary market.
> 
> So this will be great for me


I got it in the past few months for $20 plus $4 shipping. On ebay, though, so not a normal price. The hardest/ most expensive to find was Batgirl #8, the crossover with Red Robin, because Red Robin: Collision, is ridiculously expensive. I found it bundled with the first trade from Red Robin for $30 apiece, so that was the most expensive of the trades I purchased to completely my Steph collection.

----------


## Caivu

Well, look who's in the new Batwoman series:

Screenshot_20170123-141807.jpg

Probably just a flashback, but still cool.

----------


## The Whovian

> Well, look who's in the new Batwoman series:
> 
> Screenshot_20170123-141807.jpg
> 
> Probably just a flashback, but still cool.


I hope not. And this book just got even more amazing.

----------


## millernumber1

Mmm. Pretty sure that's a flashback, since 1) Steph's wearing her old mask, and 2) it's got Clayface in the background, indicating to me that it's a splash page of the team in some kind of expository "the story till now" sequence that will bring us up to date if we haven't been reading Tec.

But that is a pretty great find - thanks, Caivu!

----------


## The Whovian

> Mmm. Pretty sure that's a flashback, since 1) Steph's wearing her old mask, and 2) it's got Clayface in the background, indicating to me that it's a splash page of the team in some kind of expository "the story till now" sequence that will bring us up to date if we haven't been reading Tec.
> 
> But that is a pretty great find - thanks, Caivu!


Good catch! I didn't even see Clayface in the background. I was so focused on Steph. Yeah, this has to be a flashback. But it would still be cool to see Steph show up in her book in the present.

----------


## millernumber1

I would love it - Kate showed real care for Steph at the beginning of the Victim Syndicate arc, so showing them having a continued relationship would make me really happy!

----------


## adrikito

> Well, look who's in the new Batwoman series:
> 
> Attachment 44150
> 
> Probably just a flashback, but still cool.


WOW... Amazing..  :Cool:  

With the problems of Steph with the Batfamily, a flashback.. Anyway, even without Steph I will see the serie..

----------


## adrikito

> 


After rebirth, Damian will remember this moments with Steph.

----------


## CPSparkles

> After rebirth, Damian will remember this moments with Steph.


These two together = very fun read. Love them together. Their banter is hilarious.

----------


## gwhh

Love it when she wears "grow up" clothes in the comics!    She looks so professional!  

Which comic issue is this from?

----------


## Frontier

Steph took the words right out of my mouth  :Wink: .

----------


## adrikito

*DETECTIVE COMICS VOL. 1: RISE OF THE BATMEN*

RISE OF BATMEN.jpg

GOOD IMAGE for Batwoman/Tim/Cass Appreciation, too.  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> Love it when she wears "grow up" clothes in the comics!    She looks so professional![/URL]


One day, perhaps, we'll get more of Steph the grown up  :Smile: 




> *DETECTIVE COMICS VOL. 1: RISE OF THE BATMEN*
> 
> RISE OF BATMEN.jpg
> 
> GOOD IMAGE for Batwoman/Tim/Cass Appreciation, too.


I love the new cover - having Steph on the cover of a well-received series will do lots for her recognition and fanbase, I hope!

----------


## The Whovian

> *DETECTIVE COMICS VOL. 1: RISE OF THE BATMEN*
> 
> RISE OF BATMEN.jpg
> 
> GOOD IMAGE for Batwoman/Tim/Cass Appreciation, too.


Love the cover. But I hate the fact that DC is releasing tpb's first instead of hc's

----------


## millernumber1

> Love the cover. But I hate the fact that DC is releasing tpb's first instead of hc's


Interesting point. But, as someone who generally collects tpb instead of hardcovers, and floppies on ebay, I am curious - since DC tends to only release the first volume of a run in hardcover, unless it's something like Snyder's run of something, hardcovers become frustratingly inconsistent, because you'll have volume 1 in hardcover, and then 2, 3, 4, etc in softcover.

Add to that the really fascinating archival collection that's been happening for the past few years - with Birds of Prey, Cass's Batgirl series, Tim's Robin series, Rucka's run on Wonder Woman, and this summer, Steph's Batgirl series (SO EXCITED!  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: ) - those are all in softcover. That seems to be the trend now. 

Plus, I'm curious about the future of comics collecting - I already have a fairly large collection on comixology (with linked accounts to DC and Marvel), both of individual issues and trades that were on sale. Do you think that, like the increasing lack of production value on DVDs and even blu-rays, the rise of digital consumption and collecting is pushing the publishers away from the more expensive hard copy production into softcover-primary releases?

(apologies for getting hyper nerdy about collecting on the Steph thread.)

----------


## The Whovian

> Interesting point. But, as someone who generally collects tpb instead of hardcovers, and floppies on ebay, I am curious - since DC tends to only release the first volume of a run in hardcover, unless it's something like Snyder's run of something, hardcovers become frustratingly inconsistent, because you'll have volume 1 in hardcover, and then 2, 3, 4, etc in softcover.


All of DC's New 52 major characters and runs all had HC's. I have all of Batman's titles in the HC format. But whenever there isn't a HC of something, I will buy the tpb. I just prefer the HC or OHC.

----------


## millernumber1

> All of DC's New 52 major characters and runs all had HC's. I have all of Batman's titles in the HC format. But whenever there isn't a HC of something, I will buy the tpb. I just prefer the HC or OHC.


Hmmm. I know that Snyder's run had hardcovers, and a quick check reveals that Batman and Robin and Detective Comics also seem to have been released in HC, but Batgirl, Grayson, Nightwing, and Batwoman all only had volume 1 of their runs in hardcover, from what I can find.

I do love omnibus editions, and the 75 or 50 year celebration collections have been pretty fun as well. But I like the bonus content you can get - sketches, commentary, interviews. I'm not a huge fan of collections that don't have anything (or worse, leave things out, like the variant covers, or they have the covers as thumbnails).  Otherwise, why not just get the floppies?  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> Hmmm. I know that Snyder's run had hardcovers, and a quick check reveals that Batman and Robin and Detective Comics also seem to have been released in HC, but Batgirl, Grayson, Nightwing, and Batwoman all only had volume 1 of their runs in hardcover, from what I can find.


Yep, the minor characters (according to DC, not me) didn't get the full HC treatment. But all of Batman's titles did. 




> I do love omnibus editions, and the 75 or 50 year celebration collections have been pretty fun as well. But I like the bonus content you can get - sketches, commentary, interviews. I'm not a huge fan of collections that don't have anything (or worse, leave things out, like the variant covers, or they have the covers as thumbnails).  Otherwise, why not just get the floppies?


I like the trades better. I had 40 boxes of comics and ran out of room. I decided to get rid of half of them and I'm slowly converting the floppies to trades or bound books. My goal is to eventually get rid of 90% of my floppies.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yep, the minor characters (according to DC, not me) didn't get the full HC treatment. But all of Batman's titles did.


Minor characters, hah! We shall show them! Steph shall be a major character, with premiere glossy hardcovers and pristine high quality paper!  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

Steph old power.. enough for control damian... Although, currently Maya is the replace of Steph in this...

Attachment 44665

Damian must go back to Gotham for begin with his problem with Steph again.

----------


## millernumber1

Steph will be in the new Tec 950, at least in a flashback! Man, I have missed that girl!

----------


## adrikito

> Steph will be in the new Tec 950, at least in a flashback! Man, I have missed that girl!


I missed her too. Is a great character.

----------


## The Whovian

> Steph will be in the new Tec 950, at least in a flashback! Man, I have missed that girl!


Yep. Even though she has left the team, I hope she still is in the book to keep us aware of what she's been up to and doing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yep. Even though she has left the team, I hope she still is in the book to keep us aware of what she's been up to and doing.


That's my hope! Just like Tim popped in for Tec 947 to show up Tynion still has plans for him.

----------


## brucekent12

Please Mr. Tynion have plans for Spoiler as well!

----------


## millernumber1

> Please Mr. Tynion have plans for Spoiler as well!


Oh, he has them! He's tweeted about them and talked about them in interviews - I posted those a couple of pages ago (or maybe 3-6).

----------


## adrikito

*From Tumblr:*

Batgirl Incorporated:

incorp.jpg

With the Old Spoiler costume: 
robin.jpg

Tim returns makes Steph Happy:

tumblr_okwt21BTPx1tjd72uo1_500.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> [B]Tim returns makes Steph Happy:
> 
> tumblr_okwt21BTPx1tjd72uo1_500.jpg


Well, don't forget this!

Robin_174_(05).jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Well, don't forget this!
> 
> Robin_174_(05).jpg


Now _that's_ a kiss  :Wink: .

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin: 

tumblr_ld4jn1hTd61qd5zbdo1_400.jpg

10char

----------


## millernumber1

> tumblr_ld4jn1hTd61qd5zbdo1_400.jpg
> 
> 10char


Willingham's Steph and Tim are such inconsistent peeps, but when they're on, they're pretty fun!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Willingham's Steph and Tim are such inconsistent peeps, but when they're on, they're pretty fun!


I don't get it why Tim never made the move on her. He was so hopeless.  :Big Grin: 

tim_drake_is_a_stud_by_gabzillaz-d3g7lze.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't get it why Tim never made the move on her. He was so hopeless. 
> 
> tim_drake_is_a_stud_by_gabzillaz-d3g7lze.jpg


Dixon was going for the long burn. Then, for some reason, after he left, DC let Jon Lewis play with them for a few years, until all of a sudden, Steph must die!!!!!! Then Dixon comes back, and clearly wants to go back to the long burn but still dating relationship style, but he gets fired, and DC screws everything up. Ah, well. At least Tynion totally had Tim go for it!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Dixon was going for the long burn. Then, for some reason, after he left, DC let Jon Lewis play with them for a few years, until all of a sudden, Steph must die!!!!!! Then Dixon comes back, and clearly wants to go back to the long burn but still dating relationship style, but he gets fired, and DC screws everything up. Ah, well. At least Tynion totally had Tim go for it!


It was so awkward in the end.  :Wink: 

chastity_club_by_microbluefish-d3nsmdo.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> It was so awkward in the end. 
> 
> chastity_club_by_microbluefish-d3nsmdo.jpg


Ahahaha, that's so true.  I personally really, really disliked all the women (most of them older) hitting on Tim in the last half of his Red Robin series. C'mon, just have him get together with Steph again, guys! (For all its faults, I liked that aspect of the Convergence Batgirl series.)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ahahaha, that's so true.  I personally really, really disliked all the women (most of them older) hitting on Tim in the last half of his Red Robin series. C'mon, just have him get together with Steph again, guys! (For all its faults, I liked that aspect of the Convergence Batgirl series.)


Yeah, Convergence, when they fell asleep instead of having sex with each other.  :Wink:  I wasn't surprised at all. Tim and his V-card......... until Rebirth, I thought he will be a virgin forever.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, Convergence, when they fell asleep instead of having sex with each other.  I wasn't surprised at all. Tim and his V-card......... until Rebirth, I thought he will be a virgin forever.


Aww, but it was cute. Plus, I like to think that somewhere in the multiverse, after Brainiac returned all the worlds to their state, Tim and Steph remembered what happened during Convergence, and got together in that reality. As Batgirl and Red Robin, as it should be.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Attachment 44852
> 
> 10char


This is the first time that I see Steph with short hair..




> I don't get it why Tim never made the move on her. He was so hopeless. 
> 
> Attachment 44854


I have 3 sexy girls after me(yeah, red robin comic) but.. Steph is superior to them..

----------


## millernumber1

> This is the first time that I see Steph with short hair..
> 
> HAHAHAA.


The short hair was cute, but it's from a very dark time in Steph's career...just before War Games.  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> It was so awkward in the end. 
> 
> Attachment 44855



IS FUN.. But This image is better for Cass Appreaciation, no?

----------


## millernumber1

> IS FUN.. But That image is better for Cass Appreaciation, no?


It does have "Batgirl approved" on it!  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> It does have "Batgirl approved" on it!



Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/*Batgirl*/Spoiler again)

Yes, you are right.. And Cass(like Tim) is a quite close to Steph.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Aww, but it was cute. Plus, I like to think that somewhere in the multiverse, after Brainiac returned all the worlds to their state, Tim and Steph remembered what happened during Convergence, and got together in that reality. As Batgirl and Red Robin, as it should be.


Yes, Batgirl and Red Robin, I miss the old continuity. I loved Steph as Batgirl, and I loved Tim's dark and brooding personality. I despise everything what the New 52 did to them. And now with Rebirth, Tim is way too cheerful, I don't like it. I just want everything back in place, like it was in 2011.

----------


## shadowsgirl

haha  :Big Grin: 

Robin_082a.jpg

Robin_082b.jpg

Robin_082c.jpg

----------


## Caivu

A bit late, but this has to be posted today of all days:

1e680582-8752-4a05-bfe1-302e7a08097d.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> A bit late, but this has to be posted today of all days:
> 
> 1e680582-8752-4a05-bfe1-302e7a08097d.jpg


Yesss! Steph/Waffles forever!

----------


## millernumber1

With Chuck Dixon, creator of Spoiler, coming back to DC to write on his most famous creation, Bane, for 12 issues, anyone think there's a chance that DC is setting up a Spoiler miniseries by Dixon while she's away from the Tec team? I, for one, would LOVE that.

----------


## adrikito

> A bit late, but this has to be posted today of all days:
> 
> 1e680582-8752-4a05-bfe1-302e7a08097d.jpg


I liked...




> With Chuck Dixon, creator of Spoiler, coming back to DC to write on his most famous creation, Bane, for 12 issues, anyone think there's a chance that DC is setting up a Spoiler miniseries by Dixon while she's away from the Tec team? I, for one, would LOVE that.


WHAT? I see the *Bane Topic* I respect that man  but... I did not know this..

That chance is now.. BIGGER..  :Cool:  Spoiler appeared 2 TIMES in the batwoman comic.

----------


## millernumber1

> WHAT? I see the *Bane Topic* I respect that man  but... I did not know this..
> 
> That chance is now.. BIGGER..  Spoiler appeared 2 TIMES in the batwoman comic.


Ahaha. It's just wild speculation on my part - no rumors or anything. Just wishes. But man, I would love for there to be rumors...

I know - I was really happy to see that Steph looks like she'll have a good scene with Batwoman in future issues!

----------


## Frontier

It'd be interesting if they kept Dixon around long enough to give him another shot with his other notable characters (Tim and Steph respectively).

----------


## millernumber1

> It'd be interesting if they kept Dixon around long enough to give him another shot with his other notable characters (Tim and Steph respectively).


I would love it!

----------


## Caivu

> I know - I was really happy to see that Steph looks like she'll have a good scene with Batwoman in future issues!


Yeah, that one moment was intriguing. It almost sounds like Steph's upset because Kate's leaving for Coryana... but that obviously can't be the case.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, that one moment was intriguing. It almost sounds like Steph's upset because Kate's leaving for Coryana... but that obviously can't be the case.


Why can't it be the case? I mean, Kate is leaving Gotham for a while?

----------


## millernumber1

http://www.cbr.com/interview-james-t...tman-watchmen/

*Question: "Can Batman/Bruce and Spoiler/Stephanie repair their relationship or are we past the point of no return?"*

_Tynion: "I very pleased with the final speech that Bruce gave at the end of “Detective Comics” #947. That when he said that he’s not willing to go out there and cut her down. He disagrees with the points that Spoiler is making but he sees why she’s doing it. She hasn’t just made the switch and become an unrepentant villain. She just doesn’t agree with how Batman operates in Gotham City. And that launches her into the next part of her story that we’ll be picking up on right after the “League of Shadows” arc. Spoiler will definitely continue to be a part of this book, especially as we move forward with the dangling thread of where is Tim Drake and what’s up with him."_

Yes! Confirmation that Steph will continue to appear! I'm very curious to see if Steph will get a one or two issue arc, like Batwoman did, or if it's part of the Luke and Jean-Paul Robo-Azrael story.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Good steph-notice.

----------


## millernumber1

I also wonder if "right after this arc" means "at the end, like the glimpse of Tim in #947" or "the issue following, like Batwoman Begins"?

----------


## adrikito

Look that SPOILER RETURNS:

*DETECTIVE COMICS #957*

Written by Genevieve Valentine, James Tynion IV, art by Carmen Carnero, cover by Alvaro Martinez, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.

*"The Wrath Of Spoiler"!* Stephanie Brown wants nothing more than to save Gotham City from the epidemic of costumed vigilantes and madmen that regularly tear the city apart. But before she can try to stop them, she must face the challenge of one in particular: the insane idealogue the Wrath is back, and Stephanie knows what he has planned -- but she refuses to let Batman risk more lives to stop him. That means it's all on her...and a very unlikely ally!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on May 24. 


*THIS INFORMATION(Thanks to Last Son of Krypton is here) IS OF:
*
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...2/21/dcmay.htm

----------


## Frontier

Doesn't trying to stop the Wrath on her own and without Batman or by preventing him from doing anything basically work against her argument? Because isn't she still a costumed vigilante who's trying to make a change through her actions, however subtle or unknowing they may be? 

Curious who the "ally" is.

----------


## adrikito

> Doesn't trying to stop the Wrath on her own and without Batman or by preventing him from doing anything basically work against her argument? Because isn't she still a costumed vigilante who's trying to make a change through her actions, however subtle or unknowing they may be? 
> 
> Curious who the "ally" is.


Emiko Queen? Selina Kyle? His father? Another member of the Bat-team in Detective Comics? Or.... *Maybe DC trying to recover the old relation of Steph and Damian? one Unlikeable Boy.. 
*
We should wait for know that..

----------


## Frontier

> His father? Emiko Queen? Catwoman? Some member of the current Bat-team of Detective Comics?
> 
> We should wait for know that..


I would assume it would have to be someone who's not a vigilante otherwise Steph completely loses her stance if she works with another Superhero or "costumed nutjob."

Maybe Montoya? Or, in a surprising twist...Gayle Hudson?

----------


## Caivu

> Doesn't trying to stop the Wrath on her own and without Batman or by preventing him from doing anything basically work against her argument? Because isn't she still a costumed vigilante who's trying to make a change through her actions, however subtle or unknowing they may be?


Steph would not be the first to make the "it's okay when _I_ do it" argument, if that's indeed what this is.

----------


## Frontier

> Steph would not be the first to make the "it's okay when _I_ do it" argument, if that's indeed what this is.


True, though it doesn't help her case much  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

Julia Penyworth for example?

----------


## millernumber1

> Look that SPOILER RETURNS:
> 
> *DETECTIVE COMICS #957*
> 
> Written by Genevieve Valentine, James Tynion IV, art by Carmen Carnero, cover by Alvaro Martinez, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.
> 
> *"The Wrath Of Spoiler"!* Stephanie Brown wants nothing more than to save Gotham City from the epidemic of costumed vigilantes and madmen that regularly tear the city apart. But before she can try to stop them, she must face the challenge of one in particular: the insane idealogue the Wrath is back, and Stephanie knows what he has planned -- but she refuses to let Batman risk more lives to stop him. That means it's all on her...and a very unlikely ally!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on May 24. 
> ...


Wow, that's incredibly exciting news! That clarifies what Tynion said - she's getting a one-shot (or possibly a two-shot, but it doesn't say "part one") right after the conclusion of League of Shadows! And co-written by the writer who gave her some serious training in Catwoman! The artist is the one who drew most of Steph's scenes in Detective Comics #945, the one where Steph and Leslie talk in "therapy."




> Doesn't trying to stop the Wrath on her own and without Batman or by preventing him from doing anything basically work against her argument? Because isn't she still a costumed vigilante who's trying to make a change through her actions, however subtle or unknowing they may be? 
> 
> Curious who the "ally" is.


I think Steph is hopefully coming around on the costumed hero argument - I agree with Caivu that Tynion wasn't trying to say Steph was right, but was sympathetic to why she hated Batman's methods after she believes they caused Tim's death.

I personally think the ally is likely Eiko Hasigawa, since Valentine is writing the story.




> Emiko Queen? Selina Kyle? His father? Another member of the Bat-team in Detective Comics? Or.... *Maybe DC trying to recover the old relation of Steph and Damian? one Unlikeable Boy.. 
> *
> We should wait for know that..


But I would love to see her team up with Damian. Moonbounce needs to happen again!

----------


## millernumber1

Flavor text from Steph's section in the new Batgirl: A Celebration of 50 Years collection:

_"Part III - 2009-2011

Spoiling for a Fight

Stephanie Brown's time as Batgirl was brief but memorable.

She was the daughter of the Cluemaster, an inept costumed villain whose crime sprees were always failures. Stephanie decided that the best way to stop her father's hapless criminal career was to don a purple costume and call herself the Spoiler. With her new identity, she spoiled her father's schemes by leaving clues with the police.

Stephanie was a skilled martial artist, and she enjoyed her new life as the Spoiler. She teamed up with Robin (Tim Drake) to fight crime and occasionally flirt. Although Tim resisted at first, their relationship soon blossomed into a romance.

The Spoiler also fought alongside Cassandra Cain during her time as Batgirl, and the two developed a close friendship. When it appeared to everyone that Batman was dead, Cassandra relinquished the role of Batgirl and bequeathed it to Stephanie.

Oracle fashioned a new Batgirl costume for Stephanie and tried to mentor her, but Stephanie was impulsive and headstrong. Oracle had to concede, though, that Stephanie was a fearless crime-fighter who bravely battled some of Gotham's deadliest foes, including the Scarecrow and the Black Mask.

The one obstacle Stephanie couldn't overcome was DC's 2011 "New 52" overhaul, which completely wiped out her history as Batgirl. Luckily, though, she returned as the Spoiler in 2014."_

----------


## adrikito

> The one obstacle Stephanie couldn't overcome was DC's 2011 "New 52" overhaul, which completely wiped out her history as Batgirl. Luckily, though, she returned as the Spoiler in 2014."[/I]


THANKS OLD BAT-FANS FOR MAKE HER COME BACK..  :Cool:   :Wink:  We recovered two special girls.. Thanks for that.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## adrikito

I see this images in Tumblr and I liked:

steph.jpg

steph 2.jpg

Some cosplays make you believe that your character exists:

tumblr_olv9y4difx1taaqj0o1_500.jpg

Seems easy find a similar girl for put her in a future Bat-movie as a secondary character..

----------


## millernumber1

I really wish we could get a Tim Drake Robin movie, which featured Steph in a similar way to the way Kori has been featured in the Damian animated movies.

----------


## Assam

> I really wish we could get a Tim Drake Robin movie, which featured Steph in a similar way to the way Kori has been featured in the Damian animated movies.


At this point, if he does appear in an animated movie, it'll probably be as Red Robin. So long as he's in his Pre-Flashpoint costume, and not his New-52 suit, AKA the worst costume ever worn by a member of the Batfamily, that'd be fine though. 

Who would you cast as Steph?

----------


## millernumber1

> At this point, if he does appear in an animated movie, it'll probably be as Red Robin. So long as he's in his Pre-Flashpoint costume, and not his New-52 suit, AKA the worst costume ever worn by a member of the Batfamily, that'd be fine though. 
> 
> Who would you cast as Steph?


I kinda like the bird wings, but that's because I associate the uniform with Batman Eternal, which I think has a really strong characterization of Tim, rather than Teen Titans, which I have not read.  :Smile:  However, I also love seeing Steph make fun of his costume in Tec. I rather prefer his costume in the n52 to the all-red and black dealie during One Year Later and beyond, but mostly because I really hate pretty much everything going on during that time until Steph came back.

The Steph cast I've wanted for a bit is Elle Fanning, because she has the acting ability that I'd want to see in Steph. The current fan-favorite I've seen is Chloe Grace Moretz, but I think she's an incredibly limited actress in range, even though she could easily do the action scenes.  She's a bit older than I'd want Steph to be, but I also love Saoirse Ronan as an idea for the role.

----------


## Assam

> I kinda like the bird wings, but that's because I associate the uniform with Batman Eternal, which I think has a really strong characterization of Tim, rather than Teen Titans, which I have not read.  However, I also love seeing Steph make fun of his costume in Tec. I rather prefer his costume in the n52 to the all-red and black dealie during One Year Later and beyond, but mostly because I really hate pretty much everything going on during that time until Steph came back.
> 
> The Steph cast I've wanted for a bit is Elle Fanning, because she has the acting ability that I'd want to see in Steph. The current fan-favorite I've seen is Chloe Grace Moretz, but I think she's an incredibly limited actress in range, even though she could easily do the action scenes.  She's a bit older than I'd want Steph to be, but I also love Saoirse Ronan as an idea for the role.


One Year Later till Final Crisis was not a very good time for DC. The only great books they had during that time were Booster Gold and Blue Beetle. It also had my most hated storyline in comic book history, "Evil Cass" 

Out of those choices for Steph, I'd go with Elle Fanning.

----------


## millernumber1

> One Year Later till Final Crisis was not a very good time for DC. The only great books they had during that time were Booster Gold and Blue Beetle. It also had my most hated storyline in comic book history, "Evil Cass" 
> 
> Out of those choices for Steph, I'd go with Elle Fanning.


Yeah, Evil Cass is just so badly done. Though I did like her Red Lightsaber Katanas fight with Supergirl (visually).  :Smile:  I actually own the Batgirl: Redemption trade paperback, but only because it was a package deal with one of Steph's Batgirl trades, which I was collecting on ebay.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, Evil Cass is just so badly done. Though I did like her Red Lightsaber Katanas fight with Supergirl (visually).  I actually own the Batgirl: Redemption trade paperback, but only because it was a package deal with one of Steph's Batgirl trades, which I was collecting on ebay.


Ah, Batgirl: Redemption. What a steaming pile of ****! Why did they keep giving Cass to Adam Beechen?! 

I was actually rooting for EvilCass in her fight with Supergirl, because at that point, despite supposedly being a hero, Supergirl was actually more evil than Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah, Batgirl: Redemption. What a steaming pile of ****! Why did they keep giving Cass to Adam Beechen?! 
> 
> I was actually rooting for EvilCass in her fight with Supergirl, because at that point, despite supposedly being a hero, Supergirl was actually more evil than Cass.


Adam Beechen just isn't a terribly good writer on a dialogue and plot structure level, either. Much as I loved the adoption of Cass ending of Redemption, it's really poorly done. The sad part is, Beechen really liked Cass. But his incompetence just made it all fail terribly.

That's what I've heard about the Cass vs. Supergirl fight, but since I really don't care that much about the Super family, I have only read that one issue of the series at the time. (Also, I'm still super bummed that Steph never got her crossover issues of Supergirl - http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_(60) )

----------


## Assam

> Adam Beechen just isn't a terribly good writer on a dialogue and plot structure level, either. Much as I loved the adoption of Cass ending of Redemption, it's really poorly done. The sad part is, Beechen really liked Cass. But his incompetence just made it all fail terribly.
> 
> That's what I've heard about the Cass vs. Supergirl fight, but since I really don't care that much about the Super family, I have only read that one issue of the series at the time. (Also, I'm still super bummed that Steph never got her crossover issues of Supergirl - http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Supergirl_(60) )


That comic would have been SO GOOD. And yeah, Steph's briefly explored friendship with Kara was great. 

And if you're curious as to how evil Supergirl was at the time, she:

Was attacking other heroes in pretty much every issue of her book. 

Was a general bitch to everyone she encountered, including her boyfriend, Captain Boomerang Jr. (Long story there)

And, most heinous of all, she SOLD KANDOR INTO SLAVERY!

----------


## millernumber1

> That comic would have been SO GOOD. And yeah, Steph's briefly explored friendship with Kara was great. 
> 
> And if you're curious as to how evil Supergirl was at the time, she:
> 
> Was attacking other heroes in pretty much every issue of her book. 
> 
> Was a general bitch to everyone she encountered, including her boyfriend, Captain Boomerang Jr. (Long story there)
> 
> And, most heinous of all, she SOLD KANDOR INTO SLAVERY!


...why was she doing any of these things? Also, why was Cap Boomer Jr a thing? (I've only read him recently, in the Checkmate Outsiders crossover, which was pretty terrible.)

And was this the same Supergirl who was buddies with Steph in Batgirl #14? What changed?

----------


## Assam

> ...why was she doing any of these things? Also, why was Cap Boomer Jr a thing? (I've only read him recently, in the Checkmate Outsiders crossover, which was pretty terrible.)
> 
> And was this the same Supergirl who was buddies with Steph in Batgirl #14? What changed?


I don't remember DC's reasoning for doing so, but Post Crisis Kara, who came into existence after they got rid of the much beloved Matrix, was meant to be more of an anti-hero. Instead, she was basically a villain who everyone treated a hero, despite the fact that she was a horrible, horrible person. Cap Boomer Jr. actually wasn't too bad a character...until Geoff "I wanna marry the Silver Age" Johns, had him slaughter women and children in Blackest Night so that everyone would be cheering for the return of the original Boomer. 

And yes, this Supergirl was the same one who was friends with Steph. Nothing changed in story as far as I'm aware. She just got better writers who mellowed her out.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't remember DC's reasoning for doing so, but Post Crisis Kara, who came into existence after they got rid of the much beloved Matrix, was meant to be more of an anti-hero. Instead, she was basically a villain who everyone treated a hero, despite the fact that she was a horrible, horrible person. Cap Boomer Jr. actually wasn't too bad a character...until Geoff "I wanna marry the Silver Age" Johns, had him slaughter women and children in Blackest Night so that everyone would be cheering for the return of the original Boomer. 
> 
> And yes, this Supergirl was the same one who was friends with Steph. Nothing changed in story as far as I'm aware. She just got better writers who mellowed her out.


...this is still the same Supergirl who Jeph Loeb wrote in Superman/Batman (adapted to Superman/Batman Apocalypse)?

I do not get that at all. At least she was a fun pal for Steph, that's all I can say.  :Smile: 

Also, when I hear "Geoff Johns", I still think of the guy who killed off or made evil so many characters I liked, so having him be so positive in the Rebirth era is still throwing me for a loop.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> ...this is still the same Supergirl who Jeph Loeb wrote in Superman/Batman (adapted to Superman/Batman Apocalypse)?
> 
> I do not get that at all. At least she was a fun pal for Steph, that's all I can say. 
> 
> Also, when I hear "Geoff Johns", I still think of the guy who killed off or made evil so many characters I liked, so having him be so positive in the Rebirth era is still throwing me for a loop.


That's the same Supergirl, yeah. 

I personally think it would have made more sense at that time for Star Girl to have been pals with Steph than Kara. 

And yeah, while I adore Johns's Aquaman, and some of his JSA, runs, I hate almost everything else he's done. I hate that Barry and Hal came back, I HATE his Teen Titans run, and while the hate isn't passionate, I don't like his Justice League at all. 

Martain Manhunter Infinite> Cyborg

----------


## millernumber1

> That's the same Supergirl, yeah. 
> 
> I personally think it would have made more sense at that time for Star Girl to have been pals with Steph than Kara. 
> 
> And yeah, while I adore Johns's Aquaman, and some of his JSA, runs, I hate almost everything else he's done. I hate that Barry and Hal came back, I HATE his Teen Titans run, and while the hate isn't passionate, I don't like his Justice League at all. 
> 
> Martain Manhunter Infinite> Cyborg


Here's where my narrow slice of comics knowledge starts to fail me - who's Star Girl? I know she's supposedly coming back as part of the whole Rebirth story arc, with Batman hinting at her with her symbol and stuff, but...who is she?

----------


## Assam

> Here's where my narrow slice of comics knowledge starts to fail me - who's Star Girl? I know she's supposedly coming back as part of the whole Rebirth story arc, with Batman hinting at her with her symbol and stuff, but...who is she?


So, Star Girl, formerly known as Star-Spangled Kid, AKA Courtney Whitmore...is actually the inheritor of three separate legacies. 

Back in the Golden Age, there was a hero called Star-Spangled Kid. He had one of the few adult sidekicks, Stripsey. 

Stripsey ended up becoming Courtney's step father, her real father being a complete dead beat. 

Shortly after becoming family, Courtney stole the belt which belonged to the original SSK, and became the new SSK. Not wanting her out there alone, the former Stripsey put on  a mech suit and became S.T.R.I.P.E 

And then Geoff Johns killed S.T.R.I.P.E 

So, Courtney also inherited his legacy. 

Finally, there was another Golden Age hero named Star Man. Star Man had two sons. After he retired, his older son became Star Man. Then he died. So, the younger son, Jack Knight, who had no interest in becoming a hero at all, ended up becoming the new Star Man. 

Jack, believe it or not, actually got a happy ending, settinling down with his new wife and child. And since he retired, he decided to give his Cosmic Rod to Courtney, who, at which point, changed her name from SSK to Star Girl. 

Oh, and there were also two more Star Man after Jack, but neither of them have anything to do with this. 

...

I am such a nerd.

----------


## millernumber1

> So, Star Girl, formerly known as Star-Spangled Kid, AKA Courtney Whitmore...is actually the inheritor of three separate legacies. 
> 
> Back in the Golden Age, there was a hero called Star-Spangled Kid. He had one of the few adult sidekicks, Stripsey. 
> 
> Stripsey ended up becoming Courtney's step father, her real father being a complete dead beat. 
> 
> Shortly after becoming family, Courtney stole the belt which belonged to the original SSK, and became the new SSK. Not wanting her out there alone, the former Stripsey put on  a mech suit and became S.T.R.I.P.E 
> 
> And then Geoff Johns killed S.T.R.I.P.E 
> ...


I thought she might have been, so I checked my Batgirl collection, and Steph does team up with Star Girl in Batgirl #23. Is this the same Star Girl who is likely showing up with Rebirth? And how long has Star Girl been around? 

The whole deadbeat dad and multiple legacies thing does seem very much like our girl Steph  :Wink: .

----------


## twincast

> ...


Yep, that's all the in-universe basics. (Well, technically it's Starman and Stargirl, not Star Man and Star Girl.) Also of note is that Geoff Johns created her in memory of his dead sister, which makes her about as safe from comic book death as can be for the foreseeable future.

As for his creative output, I love all the JSA stuff I've read but have little good to say about anything else - least of all Teen Titans, the popularity of which just baffles me.

----------


## Assam

> I thought she might have been, so I checked my Batgirl collection, and Steph does team up with Star Girl in Batgirl #23. Is this the same Star Girl who is likely showing up with Rebirth? And how long has Star Girl been around? 
> 
> The whole deadbeat dad and multiple legacies thing does seem very much like our girl Steph .


Yeah, this is the same Star Girl who will be in Rebirth. She was created in 1999, actually debuting in solo series. A solo series which was actually the first thing ever written for DC by Geoff Johns.

----------


## Assam

> Yep, that's all the in-universe basics. (Well, technically it's Starman and Stargirl, not Star Man and Star Girl.) Also of note is that Geoff Johns created her in memory of his dead sister, which makes her about as safe from comic book death as can be for the foreseeable future.
> 
> As for his creative output, I love all the JSA stuff I've read but have little good to say about anything else - least of all Teen Titans, the popularity of which just baffles me.


I agree with you completely about Johns' Teen Titans. It was one of the biggest BETRAYALS I've ever seen. The popularity of it stems from people who never read Young Justice. In fact, Johns's Teen Titans was apparently a lot of people's introduction to comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree with you completely about Johns' Teen Titans. It was one of the biggest BETRAYALS I've ever seen. The popularity of it stems from people who never read Young Justice. In fact, Johns's Teen Titans was apparently a lot of people's introduction to comics.


The funny thing for me is, I just don't like the idea of the Justice League or Teen Titans, because 1) I don't like the concept that these characters who are so wildly unmatched in abilities and power levels should be tackling the same problems, and 2) I hate, hate, hate the characterization confusion that comes when these characters are edited by different offices. See also: the difference between someone who sees Tim primarily through his Robin and Red Robin title, vs. someone who sees Tim primarily through his appearances in Teen Titans. The relationships, personality - it's almost like he's a completely different character. (Also, the Teen Titan people tend to hate on Steph, which annoys me.)

----------


## Assam

> The funny thing for me is, I just don't like the idea of the Justice League or Teen Titans, because 1) I don't like the concept that these characters who are so wildly unmatched in abilities and power levels should be tackling the same problems, and 2) I hate, hate, hate the characterization confusion that comes when these characters are edited by different offices. See also: the difference between someone who sees Tim primarily through his Robin and Red Robin title, vs. someone who sees Tim primarily through his appearances in Teen Titans. The relationships, personality - it's almost like he's a completely different character. (Also, the Teen Titan people tend to hate on Steph, which annoys me.)


Steph haters gonna hate. 

Also, yeah, most writers of Robin and Red Robin would have the sense to know that Tim Drake wouldn't, ever, under any circumstances, KISS HIS DEAD BEST FRIEND'S GIRLFRIEND WHILE STANDING OVER HIS GRAVE!

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph haters gonna hate. 
> 
> Also, yeah, most writers of Robin and Red Robin would have the sense to know that Tim Drake wouldn't, ever, under any circumstances, KISS HIS DEAD BEST FRIEND'S GIRLFRIEND WHILE STANDING OVER HIS GRAVE!


Yeah, the whole Tim/Cassie relationship is one of the biggest turn-offs for me, even though I really like Sean McKeever as a writer. On the other hand, he did finally have Steph show up in Teen Titans in the issue where Tim left the team.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Steph and damian against jason.

ste2.jpg

ste.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph and damian against jason.
> 
> ste2.jpg
> 
> ste.jpg


That comic cracks me up. I love the small Batkids against the big ones  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> That comic cracks me up. I love the small Batkids against the big ones


Steph, Damian, and NuCass are DC's #Shortysquad

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph, Damian, and NuCass are DC's #Shortysquad


I want Steph and Damian to have a friendship again, so desperately.

----------


## Assam

> I want Steph and Damian to have a friendship again, so desperately.


http://img11.deviantart.net/cf98/i/2...55-d3rb7rv.jpg

----------


## Assam

So, we all saw the solicitation that said that in Steph's solo adventure, she'd be getting help from someone "unexpected." 

However, we know at this point that DC likes to lie/exaggerate in their solicits, especially when it comes to talking about things as if we haven't read anything pre-flashpoint. 

So, while it won't be anyone from the 'Tec team...this Steph hasn't met Damian. 

Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I think there's a solid chance that Fatgirl and Robin-Robin will be meeting again for the first time in a few months.

----------


## millernumber1

> So, we all saw the solicitation that said that in Steph's solo adventure, she'd be getting help from someone "unexpected." 
> 
> However, we know at this point that DC likes to lie/exaggerate in their solicits, especially when it comes to talking about things as if we haven't read anything pre-flashpoint. 
> 
> So, while it won't be anyone from the 'Tec team...this Steph hasn't met Damian. 
> 
> Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I think there's a solid chance that Fatgirl and Robin-Robin will be meeting again for the first time in a few months.


While that would be nice, and Valentine does have a history of writing a solid Damian in BRE, I think it's much, much more likely that she'll be bringing Eiko Hasigawa, or even Selina (though I have to image she's off limits while she's in Batman), based on her year of writing that title.

----------


## Assam

> While that would be nice, and Valentine does have a history of writing a solid Damian in BRE, I think it's much, much more likely that she'll be bringing Eiko Hasigawa, or even Selina (though I have to image she's off limits while she's in Batman), based on her year of writing that title.


I really, really hope you're wrong. Did Steph really get that close with Selina and her supporting cast during her appearances in her book?

----------


## dragons06

> So, we all saw the solicitation that said that in Steph's solo adventure, she'd be getting help from someone "unexpected." 
> 
> However, we know at this point that DC likes to lie/exaggerate in their solicits, especially when it comes to talking about things as if we haven't read anything pre-flashpoint. 
> 
> So, while it won't be anyone from the 'Tec team...this Steph hasn't met Damian. 
> 
> Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I think there's a solid chance that Fatgirl and Robin-Robin will be meeting again for the first time in a few months.


To have both Stephanie and Damian reunite again for detective comics would be awesome, I missed their interactions together.
They where very entertaining.

----------


## millernumber1

Yep - she had very significant contact with Selina at the beginning and end of the arc, and it appears that she actually lived at the Hasigawa complex for those weeks or months while she was training with the second Catwoman.

----------


## adrikito

Steph and Selina Or Steph with Eiko... I like Damian option but.. I see this impossible
*
I hope not see HARPER..*  :Frown:  And this is an excuse for put her soon in Detective Comics..

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph and Selina Or Steph with Eiko... I like Damian option but.. I see this impossible
> *
> I hope not see HARPER..*  And this is an excuse for put her soon in Detective Comics..


Oh, goodness. You have brought up the worst possible idea! I really, really hope it's not her.

I mean, I'd be most happy at Cass or Damian - but Cass is still officially part of the team (though given the way Tynion keeps getting rid of members, that could change  :Wink:  ), and Damian I think isn't on people's radar. I'd be the most happy to be proven wrong on this count, though.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, goodness. You have brought up the worst possible idea! I really, really hope it's not her.


But don't you know? Harper is Steph's best friend, just like she's Cass's best friend! *Dies inside* 

[/QUOTE]I mean, I'd be most happy at Cass or Damian - but Cass is still officially part of the team (though given the way Tynion keeps getting rid of members, that could change[/QUOTE]

If Cass leaves, I riot. 

I mean, I'd stick around because the next arc will be about Jean-Paul, but if Tynion puts her in limbo, AGAIN!!!... :Mad:

----------


## adrikito

> But don't you know? Harper is Steph's best friend, just like she's Cass's best friend!


And the better friend of Cass...  :Mad:   :Mad:  that friend should be Steph.


POST 1900, THANKS *STEPH APPRECIATION*. THIS IS MY 63 POST HERE.

----------


## millernumber1

> But don't you know? Harper is Steph's best friend, just like she's Cass's best friend! *Dies inside* 
> 
> If Cass leaves, I riot. 
> 
> I mean, I'd stick around because the next arc will be about Jean-Paul, but if Tynion puts her in limbo, AGAIN!!!...


I don't even hate Harper, and I just want her to...calm down, stop stealing my BFF ship.

I...really hope that Tynion has gotten his "we must shake up the team" out of his system for at least two arcs. Well. I mean it's clear Clayface is going to leave sometime soon, but that was inevitable, and I will appreciate the tragedy, but not be too sad about it.




> And the better friend of Cass... : that friend should be Steph.
> 
> POST 1900, THANKS *STEPH APPRECIATION*. THIS IS MY 63 POST HERE.


Nice job!

And yes, Steph and Cass should be best buds. Harper should be their oddball friend who shows up every now and then.

----------


## Assam

> And the better friend of Cass... that friend should be Steph.


YEEEEEEEEEEES!  :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad: 

Cass and Steph are my OTP, and with Tim gone, Harper is all that stands in the way. 

...

Excuse me for a moment, I'm gonna go call the Joker and tell him where Harper lives.

Actually, no, I wouldn't want to hurt Steph and Cass like that. Fine, she can live, but she better lay off!

----------


## adrikito

> Oh, goodness. You have brought up the worst possible idea! I really, really hope it's not her.


We must be prepared for the worst.. The character appeared in Detective Comics.. and the other 2 who appeared recently with her are in the current 
Bat-team(Azrael and Batwing)




> Excuse me for a moment, I'm gonna go call the Joker and tell him where Harper lives.


Better Bane, he is in Gotham now.

----------


## Assam

> We must be prepared for the worst.. The character appeared in Detective Comics.


Amazingly, Harper isn't even the worst theoretical option. 

That'd be Duke.

----------


## adrikito

> Amazingly, Harper isn't even the worst theoretical option. 
> 
> That'd be Duke.


...... Maybe..  But his creator see both.. as a better characters than the rest of the batfamily.  :Mad:  

I see the Damian friends of *Robin: Son of Batman* more interesting than these 2 in less chapters and my first opinion was different.

Even as fan of N52.. I prefer the post-crisis batfamily, because I read old BAT comics...

----------


## Assam

> and the other 2 who appeared recently with her are in the current Bat-team(Azrael and Batwing)


I mean, I get why some people don't like Batwing, I'm not a fan but I've got nothing against him, but why don't you like Jean-Paul? He rocks!

----------


## adrikito

> I mean, I get why some people don't like Batwing, I'm not a fan but I've got nothing against him, but why don't you like Jean-Paul? He rocks!


I don´t know Azrael like you.. I know that he replace Bruce after Bane breaks the Bat in 1993(I born that year).. but *I didn´t say that.. I don´t hate him.* 

I say... Like Harper, Azrael and Batwing appeared recently... 

They joined the team... For that I doubt that Harper will not appear soon again.

----------


## Assam

> I don´t know Azrael like you.. I know that he replace Bruce after Bane breaks the Bat in 1993(I born that year).. but *I didn´t say that.. I don´t hate him.* 
> 
> I say... Like Harper, Azrael and Batwing appeared recently... 
> 
> They joined the team... For that I doubt that Harper will not appear soon again.


My bad, misunderstood what you meant. 

If you ever come across some Azrael back issues, I say pick them up. Jean-Paul is a really interesting character, with unique struggles compared to the rest of the BatFam. He also had some relationships with the family I hope they revisit: Being like a little brother to Bruce, being the BEST big bro to Cass, and having a crush on Babs. 

Yeah , for a little while, there was something of a love triangle between Dick, Babs, and Jean-Paul. As you'd imagine, getting in the way of DickBabs didn't do wonders for Jean-Paul's popularity.

----------


## millernumber1

> My bad, misunderstood what you meant. 
> 
> If you ever come across some Azrael back issues, I say pick them up. Jean-Paul is a really interesting character, with unique struggles compared to the rest of the BatFam. He also had some relationships with the family I hope they revisit: Being like a little brother to Bruce, being the BEST big bro to Cass, and having a crush on Babs. 
> 
> Yeah , for a little while, there was something of a love triangle between Dick, Babs, and Jean-Paul. As you'd imagine, getting in the way of DickBabs didn't do wonders for Jean-Paul's popularity.


Wait, really? Az and Oracle, hmmm. What time period was this?

Also, I feel that Duke does have a shot at horning in on Steph and Cass's friendship, but I think he's more off limits because both King and Snyder love him so much.

I just hope that Steph gets more love. She deserves it!

----------


## Assam

> Wait, really? Az and Oracle, hmmm. What time period was this?
> 
> Also, I feel that Duke does have a shot at horning in on Steph and Cass's friendship, but I think he's more off limits because both King and Snyder love him so much.
> 
> I just hope that Steph gets more love. She deserves it!


Az's thing for Oracle pretty much lasted from the mid 90's till 2003, when his book was cancelled.

Duke is a fanfic OC, plain and simple. 

Yes, we know all you want is for Steph to be happy. We all do.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Huh, must have been mostly in his own title. But I admit, I've never really read any Azrael that's not in current Tec or in a crossover.

----------


## Assam

> Huh, must have been mostly in his own title. But I admit, I've never really read any Azrael that's not in current Tec or in a crossover.


If you ever do, make sure it's the 90's Jean-Paul Valley stuff, whose book lasted an impressive 100 issues. 

Don't even bother with the Michael Lane as Azrael II crap.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you ever do, make sure it's the 90's Jean-Paul Valley stuff, whose book lasted an impressive 100 issues. 
> 
> Don't even bother with the Michael Lane as Azrael II crap.


I've heard good things about Lane, though. But it was Fabian "Let's have Steph hire the villain who got her fired as Robin and murdered boys and their families in their sleep oh and Tim Drake should have every woman he meets want to have babies with him" Niceiza's writing him, wasn't it?

(Still bitter about Steph teaming up with Scarab. That's just so many versions of wrong.)

----------


## Assam

> I've heard good things about Lane, though. But it was Fabian "Let's have Steph hire the villain who got her fired as Robin and murdered boys and their families in their sleep oh and Tim Drake should have every woman he meets want to have babies with him" Niceiza's writing him, wasn't it?
> 
> (Still bitter about Steph teaming up with Scarab. That's just so many versions of wrong.)


Yeah, it was Nicieza, and I thought his book was quite trash. 

Steph teaming up with Scarab...god damn it.

----------


## Assam

tokusentai.jpg

TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI!

Bonus points for this kind of matching up to the actual roster.

----------


## millernumber1

Aww. Better times.  :Smile:

----------


## ProgmanX

> tokusentai.jpg
> 
> TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI! TOKUSENTAI!
> 
> Bonus points for this kind of matching up to the actual roster.


Jesus, the Ginju Squad. Brilliant

----------


## adrikito

..... what a shame.... I see this FUNNY image before.. I was expecting Steph news.. 

Although, she will appear after league of shadows..

----------


## millernumber1

> ..... what a shame.... I see this FUNNY image before.. I was expecting Steph news.. 
> 
> Although, she will appear after league of shadows..


Haha, yes, our poor Steph thread is pretty quiet right now, since Steph is off Spoiling Batman's plans.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

And, based off the solicits, it looks life Steph won't be appearing in the arc following her solo adventure...dammit.

----------


## millernumber1

> And, based off the solicits, it looks life Steph won't be appearing in the arc following her solo adventure...dammit.


I didn't think it would, though - it was pretty clear it would be a solo, sort of checking in on Steph's journey. I think giving her a solo issue is pretty great! And I love Azrael so far in the n52/Rebirth continuity, so him getting the spotlight is pretty exciting for me - and seeing that The Button/Rebirth is crossing over into Detective is very interesting...

----------


## Assam

> I didn't think it would, though - it was pretty clear it would be a solo, sort of checking in on Steph's journey. I think giving her a solo issue is pretty great! And I love Azrael so far in the n52/Rebirth continuity, so him getting the spotlight is pretty exciting for me - and seeing that The Button/Rebirth is crossing over into Detective is very interesting...


Yeah, I'm excited for the Jean-Paul arc too, but you know...he's not Steph XD. 

Tynion has said he wants to leave the 'Tec team in places where they could have their own books. 

So if she's not going to be a continuing antagonist to Batman... when's Spoiler Rebirth coming DC???

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I'm excited for the Jean-Paul arc too, but you know...he's not Steph XD. 
> 
> Tynion has said he wants to leave the 'Tec team in places where they could have their own books. 
> 
> So if she's not going to be a continuing antagonist to Batman... when's Spoiler Rebirth coming DC???


Hehe. While Didio's still in power, I don't see Steph getting another solo. It's a miracle she got one in the first place.

But I feel ya - Steph is my fave, and I want her back regularly appearing! It sounds like The Button is pushing the Rebirth plot forward, but not bringing Tim back yet. And I don't know enough about Dark Days to know if it's going to connect to Rebirth or not, so no idea whether it will push Steph's return forward either.

----------


## adrikito

*
TEAR JERKERS: 15 COMIC BOOKS THAT MADE US CRY*

http://www.cbr.com/tear-jerkers-15-c...t-made-us-cry/

Screen Shot 084.jpg

*
Stephanie Brown stepped into the Batgirl boots during a dark period. At a time when most of DC Comics’ books were quite serious, she came with a joy and flare that set her apart not only from the the rest of the books, but of both of her predecessors, Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain. Thanks to writer Bryan Q. Miller, there was a vulnerability to her, an inferiority complex that made her strive for greatness, and it made her all the more strong and relatable as a character.*

But this was also the end of the DC Comics as fans used to know them. We knew that “The New 52” relaunch was coming, and that newer legacy characters would be dropped in favor of their more well-known precursors. First on the chopping block was Stephanie, who would be forced to retire from the Batgirl mantle and make way for the return of Barbara Gordon. *Stephanie’s final story as Batgirl showed us a series of pages of what could have been, and it left us in bittersweet sadness, when, in her usual brand of bright attitude, she looked to the future and ended things with a smile, and a message of hope.*

----------


## Red obin

Steph's batgirl series has the best ending of any series which i have read. It is symbolic, effective and simple.The black mercy aspect of the issue was fun and I could reread the issue hundreds of times(I did not even notice the Black mercy symbolism in the dream sequences until my 2/3rd time reading it) . It brings closure to all the plot threads of the series nicely as well as being a good ending to Stephanie Brown's story as spoiler and Robin over the last 20 years.

EDIT: woo 50 pages of Steph greatness!

Here is some of that symbolism
bg 24-02.jpg
images.jpeg
oracle-robin-and-batgirl-wearing-power-rings.jpg

----------


## Red obin

Just a look a the way the series's final issue concludes all the plot threads amazingly, including her dad, mum and Barbara.

----------


## adrikito

> Steph's batgirl series has the best ending of any series which i have read. It is symbolic, effective and simple.The black mercy aspect of the issue was fun and I could reread the issue hundreds of times(I did not even notice the Black mercy symbolism in the dream sequences until my 2/3rd time reading it) . It brings closure to all the plot threads of the series nicely as well as being a good ending to Stephanie Brown's story as spoiler and Robin over the last 20 years.
> 
> EDIT: woo 50 pages of Steph greatness!
> 
> Here is some of that symbolism
> 
> oracle-robin-and-batgirl-wearing-power-rings.jpg


I consider her a TRUE Blue Lantern. She gives me hope.. I followed his appearances in comics like catwoman and batgirl(despite my hate for burnside)..

Yeah.. The end of *Robin:Son of Batman* was good too.. The 3 characters above Goliath prepared for a new adventure.

----------


## millernumber1

> *Stephanie Brown stepped into the Batgirl boots during a dark period. At a time when most of DC Comics’ books were quite serious, she came with a joy and flare that set her apart not only from the the rest of the books, but of both of her predecessors, Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain. Thanks to writer Bryan Q. Miller, there was a vulnerability to her, an inferiority complex that made her strive for greatness, and it made her all the more strong and relatable as a character.*
> 
> But this was also the end of the DC Comics as fans used to know them. We knew that “The New 52” relaunch was coming, and that newer legacy characters would be dropped in favor of their more well-known precursors. First on the chopping block was Stephanie, who would be forced to retire from the Batgirl mantle and make way for the return of Barbara Gordon. *Stephanie’s final story as Batgirl showed us a series of pages of what could have been, and it left us in bittersweet sadness, when, in her usual brand of bright attitude, she looked to the future and ended things with a smile, and a message of hope.*


That's a great retrospective!




> Steph's batgirl series has the best ending of any series which i have read. It is symbolic, effective and simple.The black mercy aspect of the issue was fun and I could reread the issue hundreds of times(I did not even notice the Black mercy symbolism in the dream sequences until my 2/3rd time reading it) . It brings closure to all the plot threads of the series nicely as well as being a good ending to Stephanie Brown's story as spoiler and Robin over the last 20 years.
> 
> EDIT: woo 50 pages of Steph greatness!


Every time I read Batgirl #24, I cry. It's just so well written and drawn. But remember, it's not an ending, since it's only the end if you want it to be.

And I never will.

Also, congrats, all you amazing Steph posters and lovers! Let's keep this strong for another 50 and beyond!




> Just a look a the way the series's final issue concludes all the plot threads amazingly, including her dad, mum and Barbara.


There's a couple of threads that needed some development - Wendy, Detective Gage, Tim - but the central ones, the ones you mention, absolutely do pay off amazingly well.




> I consider her a TRUE Blue Lantern. She gives me hope.. I followed his appearances in comics like catwoman and batgirl(despite my hate for burnside)..


Steph is absolutely a blazing star of hope. I also followed Steph through Catwoman and Batgirl - and even though I share your dislike of Burnside, I think Steph had some awesome appearances, especially in #51, where she was taking Babs's place!

----------


## The Whovian

> *
> TEAR JERKERS: 15 COMIC BOOKS THAT MADE US CRY*
> 
> http://www.cbr.com/tear-jerkers-15-c...t-made-us-cry/
> 
> Attachment 47065
> 
> *
> Stephanie Brown stepped into the Batgirl boots during a dark period. At a time when most of DC Comics books were quite serious, she came with a joy and flare that set her apart not only from the the rest of the books, but of both of her predecessors, Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain. Thanks to writer Bryan Q. Miller, there was a vulnerability to her, an inferiority complex that made her strive for greatness, and it made her all the more strong and relatable as a character.*
> ...


Agreed. I couldn't have said it better.

----------


## Chickfighter

It was true for me. I recall telling my mother about it. I kept rereading the issue and crying every time I read it. So well done. And so much of the hope that a real superhero should give an audience.

----------


## millernumber1

BQM really threaded of the needle of having a sunny, optimistic story, but not shying away from the darkness necessary to any Bat-book. I really don't quite see any writers today turning out the same quality book with the same kind of tone - at least in the Bat-books right now.

----------


## Assam

> BQM really threaded of the needle of having a sunny, optimistic story, but not shying away from the darkness necessary to any Bat-book. I really don't quite see any writers today turning out the same quality book with the same kind of tone - at least in the Bat-books right now.


God Bless Super Son!!! DC's best book in ages and seemingly doing what Steph's book did in this regard! Sure, the characters and themes are different, but the tones are similar, as are their quality.

----------


## millernumber1

> God Bless Super Son!!! DC's best book in ages and seemingly doing what Steph's book did in this regard! Sure, the characters and themes are different, but the tones are similar, as are their quality.


Damian and Jon are great, though I'm not currently hooked on their adventures. I wish them well, though!  (I still desperately want Steph and Damian to have a friendship again...)

----------


## adrikito

> *BQM really threaded of the needle of having a sunny, optimistic story, but not shying away from the darkness necessary to any Bat-book.* I really don't quite see any writers today turning out the same quality book with the same kind of tone - at least in the Bat-books right now.


The batgirl Steph was Fun, optimistic but... Unlike the current batgirl comic You knew that we were in Gotham City.. 

Things like every boy that appears is like barbara boyfriend in the saga(batwing, chinese guy, penguin son.. and sure more boys) Keep me away from the comic.. If this was an attempt to copy Steph's comic, something is wrong... 





> (I still desperately want Steph and Damian to have a friendship again...)


We both want that. 

I think that Gleason remembered that special friendship between them when he created Maya..

*CONGRATULATIONS FOR THE 50 PAGE.*

----------


## millernumber1

> We both want that. 
> 
> I think that Gleason remembered that special friendship between them when he created Maya..


I'm really curious to know if Gleason was thinking about Steph with Maya... I mean, she's similar to Steph in backstory - daughter of a villain.

----------


## Assam

We ALL want to see Steph and Damian together again...

----------


## sakuyamons

> We ALL want to see Steph and Damian together again...


They ARE the best Robin+Batgirl duo (I might be biased because they were my first though  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

I loved the big sister-little brother relationship they had.

stephanie-brown-bonds-with-damian-wayne-2.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> They ARE the best Robin+Batgirl duo (I might be biased because they were my first though ).
> 
> I loved the big sister-little brother relationship they had.
> 
> stephanie-brown-bonds-with-damian-wayne-2.jpg


People who aren't moved by the moon-bounce likely have no soul.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> People who aren't moved by the moon-bounce likely have no soul.


Double post for truth.

----------


## dragons06

> People who aren't moved by the moon-bounce likely have no soul.


Amen to that Brother
They need to Reunite during Rebirth.

----------


## millernumber1

> Amen to that Brother
> They need to Reunite during Rebirth.


I really hope so! Maybe during the Dark Days!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I really hope so! Maybe during the Dark Days!


Or if we're lucky, in Steph's upcoming solo adventure. 

I WILL NOT LOSE HOPE THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN!!!

----------


## millernumber1

> Or if we're lucky, in Steph's upcoming solo adventure. 
> 
> I WILL NOT LOSE HOPE THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN!!!


Well, Valentine did write a very strong issue with Damian in Batman and Robin Eternal. That would be pretty wizard!

----------


## adrikito

We should wait for Spoiler Wrath(detective comics 957) for Steph...

Today, I see this cosplay in Tumblr:

st1.jpg

st2.jpg

st3.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Oh, I'm waiting!  :Smile: 

Those are some pretty snazzy cosplay pics!

Over on Tumblr, I got into a...disagreement with a rather unpleasant individual who insisted that Babs is the One Twue Batgirl, and Cass and Steph are posers, and Oracle is such a stupid heroic identity.

Thankfully, after the world woke up this morning, many, many people came to Steph, Cass, and Oracle's defenses. But this attitude from so many people now that we're almost certainly getting a Barbara Gordon Batgirl movie just makes me so frustrated.

----------


## adrikito

> Over on Tumblr, I got into a...disagreement with a rather unpleasant individual who insisted that Babs is the One Twue Batgirl, and Cass and Steph are posers, and Oracle is such a stupid heroic identity.
> .


Dick is Batman? Terry is Batman? OF COURSE... The same Steph and Cass.. No matter that N52 has changed that.

About Oracle... I prefer a serious barbara(With a unique, great role, helping many heroes) than the current barbara, is more admirable... The Batgirl Steph was Optimistic, cheerful but now.... The Old fans will say(like me): This is not barbara.

MAYBE.. *If DC add a bit of seriousness.. The current batgirl could be a copy of the steph series...*

----------


## millernumber1

> Dick is Batman? Terry is Batman? OF COURSE... The same Steph and Cass..


Exactly! It's like "Every other superhero can grow and age and have students, but Batgirl must ALWAYS BE BABS." You hit the nail on the head, adrikito.

----------


## Assam

I have nothing else to add.People who say only Babs is Batgirl are idiots who I want nothing to do with, and like with all legacies, the girls are all equals. 

Oh, and those are pretty snazzy cosplay picks above. My GF was GOING to be the Spoiler to my Cass, but unfortunately some shit got in the way of that.

----------


## adrikito

> Exactly! It's like "Every other superhero can grow and age and have students, but Batgirl must ALWAYS BE BABS." You hit the nail on the head, adrikito.


The heroes should GROW... Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin... Without that, Dick would be the only Robin.. Donna the only wondergirl... 

Thank you...

----------


## Moriarty

i would just like a new Steph as Batgirl action figure.  because i never picked up the Batman: Reborn figure and its super expensive now.

----------


## millernumber1

> i would just like a new Steph as Batgirl action figure.  because i never picked up the Batman: Reborn figure and its super expensive now.


I would like that as well! I have two of the Heroclix Steph as Batgirl figures, one in front of me now, one on my computer at work, but a 3.5 inch figure would be super awesome!

----------


## Assam

> I would like that as well! I have two of the Heroclix Steph as Batgirl figures, one in front of me now, one on my computer at work, but a 3.5 inch figure would be super awesome!


I'd certainly buy it!

I'd also want a new Cass figure, since the few that have been made are either super expensive or very low quality. However, since I'm not expecting a black and white Orphan or Spoiler statue anytime soon (although that's something I would DEFINITELY save up for if they were made), I'm considering saving up money now, and commissioning someone to make Funko POPs of Cass and Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd certainly buy it!
> 
> I'd also want a new Cass figure, since the few that have been made are either super expensive or very low quality. However, since I'm not expecting a black and white Orphan or Spoiler statue anytime soon (although that's something I would DEFINITELY save up for if they were made), I'm considering saving up money now, and commissioning someone to make Funko POPs of Cass and Steph.


I'm not a funko pop fan - I prefer the Dorbz aesthetic, since they're going for cute. But I've seen a Steph custom pop and it's pretty good.

(C'mon, this is Steph's 25th anniversary - she deserves a special figure!  :Smile:  )

----------


## Caivu

A bit more info about 'Tec #957, from this interview:




> We’re going to see the character The Wrath, who the most recent incarnation was brought into the universe by John Layman and Jason Fabok a few years ago is one of my favorite stories from that Detective run. We’re going to see him coming back onto the scene, ready to do the attack on Gotham that he believes will make him an A-lister, and we’re going to see Spoiler try to spoil the whole thing so nobody ever knows that he even tried to attack. That’s sort of the new position, and Spoiler is still figuring it out. She’s still trying to figure out what’s her role, what’s her place, and also, *I will say that her acting along these lines is going to attract the attention of classic Bat character who has not appeared in a long time, and I’m very excited to bring him back.*

----------


## sakuyamons

> A bit more info about 'Tec #957, from this interview:


Wooooow o: 

I'm excited now, I guess this mean I have to catch up with 'Tec

----------


## millernumber1

> A bit more info about 'Tec #957, from this interview:


Great interview, thanks!  Another great quote, about Victim Syndicate:
_
"The big thing with Spoiler… She ended the Victims Syndicate arc knowing that she wants to help people but no longer believing that being a superhero, being a costumed vigilante, is the right way to help people. We’re going to see her take a new role. One of the most telling things that I stuck there at the end of the Victims Syndicate was the idea of her ripping the wiring out of the Batsignal, and the idea that the cops were able to resolve this whole big crisis one night because Batman never found out it happened. That role–the role of the Spoiler–trying to prevent these costumed figures from attacking each other, that is her new position."_

I think that's a really good idea - Spoiler is attempting to de-escalate the violence by supporting the structures already in place without drawing attention to herself. I think that's noble and admirable, but sadly for her, this is Gotham, where Batman literally is the only "right" response. So I hope she finds her way back without feeling too much like a failure.

The note that "him" is the ally kinda nixes my theory that it's Eiko or Selina.  Who could it be? 

It also sounds like he's not planning as much rotation on Detective as he did in the first two arcs - and his mention of Zatanna almost makes me wonder if she'll be joining the team, or just a guest star.

----------


## millernumber1

> Wooooow o: 
> 
> I'm excited now, I guess this mean I have to catch up with 'Tec


Friend, you should always catch up with Tec! It's great!  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

> Friend, you should always catch up with Tec! It's great!


I haven't read it since they hit the 950 landmark  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> I haven't read it since they hit the 950 landmark


It's been really solid - some great Cass stuff, and thrilling ninja hijinks!  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

> The note that "him" is the ally kinda nixes my theory that it's Eiko or Selina.  Who could it be?


We need to start making a list of classic Gothamites who haven't been around for a while.

----------


## millernumber1

> We need to start making a list of classic Gothamites who haven't been around for a while.


Yes! Problem is, a lot of them have come back - Azrael, Ubu, Anarky, the General, etc. So my own knowledge is running thin at this point.

Let's see:
Shotgun Smith
Harvey Bullock (has he been seen since Rebirth? I know he was in Tec before Tynion took over - maybe that's too recent)
Crispus Allen
Jason Bard (oooh, that would be interesting, especially if Vicki Vale also showed up)
Nightrunner (showed up in Tynion's run on Talon, I think?)
original Batwing (though why he'd be in Gotham would be confusing)
Talon himself!
Man-Bat (is he still in Gotham Academy? Or am I thinking of a different character?)
Orpheus
Richard Dragon
Wildcat
Slam Bradley

----------


## Assam

> Yes! Problem is, a lot of them have come back - Azrael, Ubu, Anarky, the General, etc. So my own knowledge is running thin at this point.
> 
> Let's see:
> Shotgun Smith
> Harvey Bullock (has he been seen since Rebirth? I know he was in Tec before Tynion took over - maybe that's too recent)
> Crispus Allen
> Jason Bard (oooh, that would be interesting, especially if Vicki Vale also showed up)
> Nightrunner (showed up in Tynion's run on Talon, I think?)
> original Batwing (though why he'd be in Gotham would be confusing)
> ...


Out of those, I'd most like to see Wildcat (Him giving NuSteph training would be AMAZING), but I don't really see him as a Bat character. Plus, Ted is presumably trapped with the rest of the JSA.

Him aside, Nightrunner, David Zavimbe, and especially Bullock would be cool to see. Bullock's my favorite, but I kinda wanna learn more about Zavimbe, since I never read his book, but I've heard he's a MUCH better character than Luke.

----------


## millernumber1

Wildcat training Steph would be wonderful - he briefly met her in the Robin 80-page giant back in old continuity (when Steph got a bit of training from Dinah). But I agree - he's pretty much wild guess (haha).

I feel that Bullock's been around more recently, so "a long time" seems to rule him out. Zavimbe and Nightrunner suffer from the same problem - why would they come to Gotham - but both would be cool (though I think Luke's a great character  :Smile:  ).

The real ally is probably someone I would never guess or don't even know!

----------


## Assam

> .
> 
> The real ally is probably someone I would never guess or don't even know!


Maybe it's Chief O'Hara  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## K. Jones

I haven't seen Harvey Bullock in ages. I know this is the Steph Brown thread, but I'm pulling for Bullock to become a regular in Red Hood and the Outlaws - he should be Jason's "Gordon". There's history there, for starters, but also it just makes total damn sense after the storylines that Bullock and Jason have gone through over the years.

----------


## Assam

> I haven't seen Harvey Bullock in ages. I know this is the Steph Brown thread, but I'm pulling for Bullock to become a regular in Red Hood and the Outlaws - he should be Jason's "Gordon". There's history there, for starters, but also it just makes total damn sense after the storylines that Bullock and Jason have gone through over the years.


I could see a lot of potential in that dynamic. Honestly, I'd take Bullock in any book though. He's great.

----------


## millernumber1

I think the way Bullock was written by Manpul and Buccelletto in Tec was pretty solid. Dunno if Steph's ever interacted regularly with a cop outside of Nick Gage, though. (oooh, Nick Gage would be an interesting person to bring in...)

----------


## Frontier

I feel like, since it's Tynion, it would have to be someone from the 90's, which would fit with them being a "classic" character moreso then somebody from Batman Inc.

----------


## millernumber1

> I feel like, since it's Tynion, it would have to be someone from the 90's, which would fit with them being a "classic" character moreso then somebody from Batman Inc.


That's my instinct as well. But how many dudes from the 90s has Tynion got left to bring back?  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> That's my instinct as well. But how many dudes from the 90s has Tynion got left to bring back?


There ARE characters from around that time, Holly Robinson, Onyx, etc. , but he made it clear the ally will be a guy. So who knows. (Plus, Holly JUST came back)

----------


## millernumber1

> There ARE characters from around that time, Holly Robinson, Onyx, etc. , but he made it clear the ally will be a guy. So who knows. (Plus, Holly JUST came back)


Exactly! I'm pumping for Shotgun Smith, just because.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

We need Nick Gage and Nell little back in continuity! DC has the JL trinity, red hood's dark trinity and now the Steph supporting cats trinity. Edit: Supproting cast, not cats!


Also added some Steoh quotes in my signature  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> We need Nick Gage and Nell little back in continuity! DC has the JL trinity, red hood's dark trinity and now the Steph supporting cats trinity.
> 
> 
> Also added some Steoh quotes in my signature


I am in favor of Nick and Nell 100%! The world needs Batgirl #7! (or is it 10?)  :Smile: 

Awesome quote in your sig! I love the Steph vs. Gravity running joke!

----------


## Aahz

He has no connection with STeph, but I would like Legs to return.

----------


## millernumber1

> He has no connection with STeph, but I would like Legs to return.


Well, Wrath has no connection with Steph, so I think "anything goes" within the following characteristics:

1) Has to have been absent for a long time.

2) Has to be a male.

3) Will be an ally, so likely semi-heroic. (Oooh, maybe Klarion? No, he keeps showing up in Gotham Academy.)

----------


## Assam

> He has no connection with STeph, but I would like Legs to return.


Legs rocks! Doubtful it's him, but still.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Exactly! I'm pumping for Shotgun Smith, just because.


I'm pretty sure the suburb cop in Batman Eternal #24 was supposed to be old shotgun.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm pretty sure the suburb cop in Batman Eternal #24 was supposed to be old shotgun.


Huh. I'll have to check that again.

----------


## Red obin

Steph's batgirl trade has been pushed back from late June to late August.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph's batgirl trade has been pushed back from late June to late August.


Confirmed: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1401269109...I3MMNZ34HOBYV9

That's really not good news, unless it's to coincide with a major Steph push in the current comics. Which...seems unlikely, but not impossible.

Man, today's just not a day for good news. Rucka and Sharp leaving Wonder Woman, Gotham Academy ending, and now Steph pushed back again...

----------


## Red obin

> Man, today's just not a day for good news. Rucka and Sharp leaving Wonder Woman, Gotham Academy ending, and now Steph pushed back again...


I know,  that is exactly what I thought, it is a real shame....I wish Steph had met the Gotham Academy cast.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know,  that is exactly what I thought, it is a real shame....I wish Steph had met the Gotham Academy cast.


Wait, I thought she at least sorta met them in Batgirl #52, when she defended them from the evil plot!

----------


## Red obin

Good new though, they are using the cover to Batgirl#9 not #4.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/14012691...I28X8XH9QWXHFH

----------


## millernumber1

> Good new though, they are using the cover to Batgirl#9 not #4.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/14012691...I28X8XH9QWXHFH


That is good news - #4 is just not the best of Steph's covers. I'm a bit surprised they're duplicating The Flood cover, instead of Batgirl Rising's cover. Either would be great, though!

----------


## Red obin

> That is good news - #4 is just not the best of Steph's covers. I'm a bit surprised they're duplicating The Flood cover, instead of Batgirl Rising's cover. Either would be great, though!


They probably chose it cause it is obviously Steph, as in the #1 cover she is wearing Cass' costume and #2 is neither of their costume.Of all the covers in the collection, I believe the #9 cover to be the best choice.

----------


## millernumber1

> They probably chose it cause it is obviously Steph, as in the #1 cover she is wearing Cass' costume and #2 is neither of their costume.Of all the covers in the collection, I believe the #9 cover to be the best choice.


I think #5 would actually be equally good - the cover for Batgirl Rising.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> I think #5 would actually be equally good - the cover for Batgirl Rising.


What about the #7 Roxy Rocket cover! :Stick Out Tongue:  #12 cover is another good option though.

----------


## millernumber1

> What about the #7 Roxy Rocket cover! #12 cover is another good option though.


As much as Phil Noto is one of my absolute faves, I think his covers for #4 and 6-8 aren't that great. #12 I thought about, but it's a bit dark as a representation of the whole series, though it's perfect for that issue.

They're going to be really spoiled for choices when they get to Nguyen's covers - those are so rich!

----------


## Red obin

> As much as Phil Noto is one of my absolute faves, I think his covers for #4 and 6-8 aren't that great.


Thank you! When people talk or write about Stephanie Brown Batgirl they always show the #4 cover which is my least favourite. I also don't particually like the #7 cover, but don't mind the #5 and 6 covers.

----------


## Red obin

This is a great interview by Bryan Q Miller,you can also find loads more on various websites which are cool and enlightening, if you go to the batgirl #24 Stephanie brown wiki page there is one explaining every individual black mercy page.Oh my gosh, Steph watched futurama! :Stick Out Tongue: 

Just ordered "the lesson" batgirl trade paperback.
This thread does not have enough eggplant avenger puns.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh my gosh, Steph watched futurama!
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...n_DCComics.com
> Just ordered "the lesson" batgirl trade paperback.
> This thread does not have enough eggplant avenger puns.


Haha, that's such a great interview. I think it's probably still available on DCComics.com, but it was really weirdly formatted, so I copy pasted it and did a bit of formatting to the wikia to preserve it for the future generations of Steph fans.  :Smile: 

Where'd you order your trade from? And how much (approximately) was it going for? I got mine off ebay for about $20, I believe.

I personally like "Violet Vindicator" and "Purple Urbex Hobbyist" better than Eggplant Avenger.  :Smile:  Steph's costume is occasionally colored eggplant (or aubergine), but I think it's more frequently a blue-er shade of purple. Even in the famous "It's eggplant. Purple would look stupid" issue - http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Robin_(105) - it's not really colored in that reddish purple that would be eggplant.

The Batgirl series is an interesting case in point - on the covers, it is eggplant-reddish, but interiors were all the blue-purple shade. I've often wondered about that choice - was it technical limitations, or a lack of communication, or what?

----------


## Red obin

> Where'd you order your trade from? And how much (approximately) was it going for? I got mine off ebay for about $20, I believe.


I just won mine on an ebay bid for about £11, so about $14, it was originally £7.50 but due to the Steph's popularity  :Big Grin:  , it was quickly rising in price. All the Steph issues and trade are very hard to find nowadays on ebay UK. I recently saw a good condition #14 for £20 and a near mint #12 for £80.
 Sadly, I did not win the flood trade, but I don't mind as that is soon to be collected.

Also, I only just noticed your Steph Brown wiki link in bio, cool! :Cool: 

Also, yeah Steph's spoiler costume was very rarely actually eggplant and was often a darker shade. Steph's batgirl trimming varied being purple/blue depending on artist or colourist.

Attachment 48149Spoiler_0003.jpgSpoilerR80.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I just won mine on an ebay bid for about £11, so about $14, it was originally £7.50 but due to the Steph's popularity  , it was quickly rising in price. All the Steph issues and trade are very hard to find nowadays on ebay UK. I recently saw a good condition #14 for £20 and a near mint #12 for £80.
>  Sadly, I did not win the flood trade, but I don't mind as that is soon to be collected.


Nice! That's a good deal! The trades fluctuate between $10 and $50, I think, but poor Steph's Batgirl Action Figure is almost always $80 or more.

I'm so proud of my newly complete Steph trade collection - I have the three Batgirl trades, the Leviathan Strikes one-shot, Red Robin Collision, and World's Finest. I also have the one issue of The Web that Steph pops in on and the Batgirl: Bruce Wayne The Road Home one-shot.

----------


## Assam

> Batgirl: Bruce Wayne The Road Home one-shot.


Steph slapping Bruce was glorious

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph slapping Bruce was glorious


It was THE BEST!

----------


## Red obin

Here you go!Also:
"And when he finally got home, when Bruce Wayne finally beat death, beat fate, conquered time itself, what happened? BATGIRL SLAPPED HIM IN THE FACE. Right across that beautiful, battle-scarred, chiseled chin of his. It was a gut reaction. He put her through a test she knew she didnt need, after a year of Stephanie proving to the entire world that she deserved a second chance. She was offended. Disgusted. And in that moment she had a natural, human reaction.

And then what happened after that? Batgirl apologized. Because Stephanie Brown is a person. Who is also a hero. And a girl. But first and foremost, shes a person... who watches Futurama reruns on basic cable (but thats beside the point)."- Miller

----------


## Red obin

Or how about this!

----------


## millernumber1

> Here you go!


Don't you mean, "Here we go"?  :Wink:  CATCHPHRASE!

Oh, man, that Didio edit is harsh but true!

----------


## Assam

> or how about this!


yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

----------


## Red obin

Here was a quick( and poor) photoshop I did of the Batgirls.

----------


## millernumber1

Nice. I really wish we had an Artgerm Cass to complete the set.

----------


## Red obin

> Nice. I really wish we had an Artgerm Cass to complete the set.


Same, and here is an even worse one of the Robins including Steph.

unnamed.jpg

BTW, do you guys think the flood is a good Barbara Gordon story.

----------


## millernumber1

I like it!

Does anyone collect sets of a single artist doing all three versions of Steph?  Here's a couple I've collected on my tumblr (please note - these are just digital collections - I have not commissioned any such sets  :Smile:  ):

Marcus To:http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1448...-steph-sources

Marcio Takara: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1446...colors-on-this

Dustin Nguyen: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1451...of-stephs-this

----------


## Chickfighter

Love that set of Marcus To images!

----------


## sakuyamons

> BATGIRL: STEPHANIE BROWN VOL. 1 TP
> 
>     Written by BRYAN Q. MILLER • Art by LEE GARBETT, TREVOR SCOTT, PERE PEREZ and others
>     Cover by STANLEY “ARTGERM” LAU
>     Stephanie Brown is Batgirl—and now, she must learn to balance school and crime-fighting or face the wrath of Barbara Gordon! With guest appearances from Batman and Robin and villains like Man-Bat and Scarecrow, Batgirl steps up to the mantle! Plus, Batgirl must stop a nanovirus that will turn the citizens of Gotham City into mindless techno-zombies! Collects BATGIRL #1-12.
>     On sale AUGUST 16 • 296 pg, FC, $29.99 US


Might pre-order it to get it cheaper  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

It's about 18 on Amazon.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> I like it!
> 
> Does anyone collect sets of a single artist doing all three versions of Steph?  Here's a couple I've collected on my tumblr (please note - these are just digital collections - I have not commissioned any such sets  ):
> 
> Marcus To:http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1448...-steph-sources
> 
> Marcio Takara: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1446...colors-on-this
> 
> Dustin Nguyen: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1451...of-stephs-this


Sadly, you rarely see an artist draw all three, as artists rarely  draw her robin costume, but there was also this other piece by Dustin Nguyen and the robin costume is on the floor. 

Shame that they dropped #13 from the trade but I am not surprised as it was weird that they were going to collect  13 issues of a 24 issue series. I hope that they also collect the road home batgirl issue and maybe the first part of leviathan strikes.

----------


## millernumber1

> Sadly, you rarely see an artist draw all three, as artists rarely  draw her robin costume, but there was also this other piece by Dustin Nguyen and the robin costume is on the floor. 
> 
> Shame that they dropped #13 from the trade but I am not surprised as it was weird that they were going to collect  13 issues of a 24 issue series. I hope that they also collect the road home batgirl issue and maybe the first part of leviathan strikes.


I think we'll have to wait and see what the actual issues are - Batgirl: The Lesson trade consistently has the wrong issues listed in solicits. I'm hoping they stick with the 13, since that leaves room for the Road Home issue, which is so crucial to Steph's arc.

----------


## Red obin

4457217.jpgimages.jpegRobin-Vol.-2-58-1998.jpg

Sorry for small sizes.

----------


## millernumber1

> 4457217.jpgimages.jpegRobin-Vol.-2-58-1998.jpg
> 
> Sorry for small sizes.


Some classic Steph moments. I have to admit, much as Lee Garbett's pencils were inconsistently appealing, his Steph out of uniform was almost always perfection.

----------


## Assam

> [/ATTACH]Robin-Vol.-2-58-1998.jpg[/SIZE]
> 
> .


You know I've always wondered about that: Did boy genius Tim Drake not know how babies are made? Cause if so, that's hilarious.

----------


## millernumber1

> You know I've always wondered about that: Did boy genius Tim Drake not know how babies are made? Cause if so, that's hilarious.


Tim's age has been something I'm not completely sure about until about Red Robin period, when he was definitely about 17. Some say he was 12 or 13 when he started, which would make him 14 or 15 here. This isn't long after he turned Ariana's peer-pressured sex plan down, so it's clear he knows about it. I think the problem in the Steph pregnancy reveal issue was that Tim was so surprised his brain stopped working.  :Smile:

----------


## sakuyamons

> You know I've always wondered about that: Did boy genius Tim Drake not know how babies are made? Cause if so, that's hilarious.


Boy virgin, that one  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Tim's age has been something I'm not completely sure about until about Red Robin period, when he was definitely about 17. Some say he was 12 or 13 when he started, which would make him 14 or 15 here. This isn't long after he turned Ariana's peer-pressured sex plan down, so it's clear he knows about it. I think the problem in the Steph pregnancy reveal issue was that Tim was so surprised his brain stopped working.


Tim was 13 when he started as Robin. We can't really say how old he is at ANY time between his introduction and Red Robin, because Tim ages independent of the rest of the DCU. (There's no f**king way he wouldn't be 18 by Red Robin) 

And yeah, I guess hearing news like that WOULD cause a brain fart.

----------


## Assam

> Boy virgin, that one


Dick, Jason, and Steph have all been known to have active sex lives.  

Place your bets now: Will Damian or Tim be the last virgin Robin?!

----------


## adrikito

> Dick, Jason, and Steph have all been known to have active sex lives.  
> 
> Place your bets now: Will Damian or Tim be the last virgin Robin?!


... Maybe ... if some villain girl catch Tim.. Finish his virginity.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Dick, Jason, and Steph have all been known to have active sex lives.  
> 
> Place your bets now: Will Damian or Tim be the last virgin Robin?!


But Tim isn't virgin anymore. He and Cassie had sex in Teen Titans.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim was 13 when he started as Robin. We can't really say how old he is at ANY time between his introduction and Red Robin, because Tim ages independent of the rest of the DCU. (There's no f**king way he wouldn't be 18 by Red Robin) 
> 
> And yeah, I guess hearing news like that WOULD cause a brain fart.


13 just seems way too young to me. I sorta accept it for Damian because he's ridiculously unrealistic, but Tim at 13...no wonder Batman in Knightfall didn't want him going up against so many of the villains.

I'm pretty sure Tim was 17ish in Red Robin, because he's still in high school (there's a plot point where he leaves high school to fake an injury, I think?)




> Dick, Jason, and Steph have all been known to have active sex lives.  
> 
> Place your bets now: Will Damian or Tim be the last virgin Robin?!


...quite apart from the unsavoriness of Teen Titans (more below), I'm fairly certain that Tim and Steph were...doing something. That was the implication of Tec 935, at least. With the uniforms on the floor and the kiss and bed and everything. I mean, you COULD say they were just cuddling.




> But Tim isn't virgin anymore. He and Cassie had sex in Teen Titans.


Mind controlled OOC sex. Ugh. Bleh. Ick ick ick. Even FabNic didn't stoop so low as to actually have Tim get with the naked villains at the end of Red Robin.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Yes, it was a bad way to end his virginity, but it happened, there is no way back. 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

5.jpg

6.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> 13 just seems way too young to me. I sorta accept it for Damian because he's ridiculously unrealistic, but Tim at 13...no wonder Batman in Knightfall didn't want him going up against so many of the villains.


He wa 13 when he started to train, by the time of his second mini Series, he was allready 14.




> Mind controlled OOC sex. Ugh. Bleh. Ick ick ick. Even FabNic didn't stoop so low as to actually have Tim get with the naked villains at the end of Red Robin.


He and Steph did it also in Tynions TEC.

----------


## millernumber1

I REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT!

LALALALA NOT LISTENING!  :Wink: 

Posting this to blot out the evil!

1.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> He wa 13 when he started to train, by the time of his second mini Series, he was allready 14.
> 
> He and Steph did it also in Tynions TEC.


Ah, interesting. But 14 is still really young to face Joker and Scarecrow, let alone Bane at his zenith.

I just posted that!  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> Ah, interesting. But 14 is still really young to face Joker and Scarecrow, let alone Bane at his zenith.


Dick and Jason started younger.

----------


## millernumber1

> Dick and Jason started younger.


Different times. And wasn't Jason 16 by the time he died?

To me, 16 or 17 is the right age for a Robin in today's comics culture.

No, it's completely coincidence that Steph was that age when she became Robin. Why are you looking at me that way?  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> I REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT!
> 
> LALALALA NOT LISTENING! 
> 
> Posting this to blot out the evil!
> 
> 1.jpg


Yeah, I somehow forgot about that. Even CASS knew what was going on there with the two, and even 20-21 year old Pre-Flashpoint Cass was still a virgin.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I somehow forgot about that. Even CASS knew what was going on there with the two, and even 20-21 year old Pre-Flashpoint Cass was still a virgin.


But Steph and Tim probably weren't!  :Wink: 

1.jpg

----------


## Assam

> But Steph and Tim probably weren't! 
> 
> 1.jpg


LOL

I've come to accept that so long as Tynion is around, TimXSteph is going to be a thing. And I'm okay with that. This isn't MY Cass and Steph, and they don't have the same history. So if NuCass ends up being paired with someone else down the line, I won't complain. 

At least within the main DCU. 

Far as I'm concerned, after Batgirl: Convergence ended, Cass walked back in on Tim and Steph, and the three of them had the best night ever. (I think I've seen some cute fanart of that, actually)

----------


## shadowsgirl

> far as i'm concerned, after batgirl: Convergence ended, cass walked back in on tim and steph, and the three of them had the best night ever. (i think i've seen some cute fanart of that, actually)


 :Wink:   :Wink: 
938166 - Batgirl Black_Bat Red_Robin.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Attachment 48214


That one's a bit to "haramy" for me. The one I'm talking about actually had the three of them on the couch together, ALL embracing each other. Any art where Steph and Cass are just coming onto Tim strikes me the wrong way.

----------


## Aahz

> Different times. And wasn't Jason 16 by the time he died?


Not pre flashpoint. They never clearly revealed how old he was when he died, but there are some references to him being Robin at the age of 12, so he was at best around 14 when he died.

Post flashpoint he (and Dick) where 16 when Bruce took them in, and Jason was 17 when he died, but that seems to old imo.




> To me, 16 or 17 is the right age for a Robin in today's comics culture.
> 
> No, it's completely coincidence that Steph was that age when she became Robin. Why are you looking at me that way?


But she was only 14 or 15 when she became Spoiler iirc.

At least for Dick and Jason 16 by the time they met Bruce seems to old, the father son dynamic doesn't make sense when they were already that old.

----------


## Aahz

> I've come to accept that so long as Tynion is around, TimXSteph is going to be a thing. And I'm okay with that. This isn't MY Cass and Steph, and they don't have the same history. So if NuCass ends up being paired with someone else down the line, I won't complain.


I had kind of the impression that they were going for Cass and Harper.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not pre flashpoint. They never clearly revealed how old he was when he died, but there are some references to him being Robin at the age of 12, so he was at best around 14 when he died.
> 
> Post flashpoint he (and Dick) where 16 when Bruce took them in, and Jason was 17 when he died, but that seems to old imo.
> 
> But she was only 14 or 15 when she became Spoiler iirc.
> 
> At least for Dick and Jason 16 by the time they met Bruce seems to old, the father son dynamic doesn't make sense when they were already that old.


One of the few things I prefer post-Flashpoint for.  :Smile: 

She was a year older than Tim.  :Smile:  Pretty sure she was 16 when she had her baby, and 16-17 when she was Robin after that. Being Robin is much more dangerous than being Spoiler, generally, because of the types of villains who you fight and who target you.

15-16 is better than 25 (Batman Forever).  :Wink:

----------


## Red obin

What Tim said to Steph was so tragic and heart breaking.

----------


## millernumber1

> What Tim said to Steph was so tragic and heart breaking.


I liked that scene  :Smile:   :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> I had kind of the impression that they were going for Cass and Harper.


While a lot of what's been done with Harper irritates me, on her own, I have no problem with Harper. She has the best hair in the Batfamily, and I actually DO like her personality. I'm not sure if I could place her over anyone else, but I'd definitely take Harper over Duke and Claire any day. 

cassharper.jpg

Plus, I'll admit, THIS is really damn cute. 

Honestly though, if Cass were still an adult, I'd guess they were going for CassXBasil. THAT would be crazy.

EDIT: I've just decided that I also like Harper more than Bruce, Terry, Luke, Selina, Dick, Kate, and especially Babsgirl. Clearly I am a mad man who needs to be stopped.

----------


## shadowsgirl

These are cute. :Smile: 

hey_pretty_babe_by_colours07.jpg

c5421a23edc1e525304c402b3e16a6c9.jpg

tumblr_mcy0gumUnY1rvu7y2o1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

1_tumblr_m5zohiPKwL1qda04qo1_1280.jpg

2. tim steph tumblr_mi8t0jxTA51rrp531o1_500.jpg

3. cf226c963d6f6cf01774f6d801dbd064.jpg

----------


## Red obin

> I liked that scene


I know right, it was so well written.

----------


## millernumber1

Those are indeed some of the cutest TimSteph fan art out there! Excellent finds, shadowsgirl!

Red obin - I get chills all the way through those last two issues of Rise of the Batmen.

----------


## Red obin

Batgirl-Stephanie-Brown-h9.jpgBatgirl-Stephanie-Brown-h8.jpg0346cb0bb228e8ddece544d09fbe1bbe.jpg

Some Dustin Nguyen Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batgirl-Stephanie-Brown-h9.jpgBatgirl-Stephanie-Brown-h8.jpg0346cb0bb228e8ddece544d09fbe1bbe.jpg
> 
> Some Dustin Nguyen Steph.


While I think Pere Perez was the most consistent Stephgirl artist, Nguyen is my absolute favorite artist of Steph in costume. I really wish he wasn't on Descender so he could be one of Tec's rotating artists...(I mean, I wish him all the best with the creator owned stuff, but I want him to draw Steph again so badly...)

----------


## shadowsgirl

More cuteness.  :Smile: 

1. tumblr_inline_oje14yWajO1t38s5z_500.jpg

2. like_ice_cream_by_colours07-d322p90.jpg

3. tumblr_o1ia2as3W71sc9ezto1_1280.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4. atim_and_steph_by_yanguchitzure-d371hy7.jpg

5. snowball_fight_by_yanguchitzure-d37jh1v.jpg

And this is just priceless.  :Cool: 

6. tumblr_n4q3hiUfc61twzt0ho1_1280.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Attachment 48230
> 
> Attachment 48231
> 
> And this is just priceless. 
> 
> Attachment 48232


De-aged Tim and Stephgirl is hilarious.

----------


## Red obin

> While I think Pere Perez was the most consistent Stephgirl artist, Nguyen is my absolute favorite artist of Steph in costume. I really wish he wasn't on Descender so he could be one of Tec's rotating artists...(I mean, I wish him all the best with the creator owned stuff, but I want him to draw Steph again so badly...)


Pere Perez's interior Steph was superior to Nguyen in my opinion but Artgerms and Nguyen's covers were so stunning. Garbett's art was on par with Perez and I loved his civilian clothes for Steph. The only thing I disliked about Perez was the ear patch on the side of the mask.
Batgirl_2_24_1.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Pere Perez's interior Steph was superior to Nguyen but Artgerms and Nguyen's covers were superior. Garbett's art was on par with Perez and I loved his civilian clothes fro Steph. The only thing I disliked about Perez was the ear patch on the side of the mask.
> Batgirl_2_24_1.jpg


I pretty much agree. It's both cool and sad to me (since I mostly read cape comics) that Perez and Nguyen have moved to indy books. Garbett is over at Marvel, which is good for him, but I don't read any of the titles he's on. Ah, well. At least we have Alvaro Martinez and Carmen Carnero to draw Steph in Tec!

----------


## Red obin

'PAGE 18 - Batgirl’s biggest fan, little Nell, is all grown up… now Batgirl proper.  Under the watchful eye of Stephanie Brown (aka Knightwing, Agent of Checkmate).  This is Stephanie having it all.  Education.  Family.  Heroism.  And yet, as she goes on to explain to Babs, it just wasn’t enticing enough to keep her under the Mercy’s spell.

EXT. ROOFTOP – NEO-GOTHAM - NIGHT

PANEL ONE

SPLASH.  ADULT STEPHANIE is in a Beyond-version of NIGHTWING’S SUIT.  But instead of the simple blue shoulder/chest design, it’s a glowing, purple one.  She’s got a domino mask on, a smile on her face.  Purple hard-light Nightwing sticks to match the chest stripe.  Same hair as in the child’s bedroom. 

And who’s perched beside her?  A 25 year-old NELL (that little girl from Issue 17)… in a Beyond-looking BATGIRL SUIT.  Have fun with these designs.  Let’s maybe color Nell’s suit in the traditional Batgirl grey/blue/yellow.  And they’ve got back-up – in the sky behind them, a couple of futuristic CHECKMATE HOVERCRAFT.'- Bryan Q miller on....

----------


## millernumber1

Funny, I posted that to the wikia, but I never really noticed the whole "Checkmate" detail before...

So many fanfic potentials there!

----------


## shadowsgirl

This is a really good Steph video.  :Smile:  I just ignore the Arrowette part, because the rest of it is awesome.

----------


## Red obin

'For those of you who haven’t bought Batgirl #24 yet, what are you waiting for? This issue, the very last with Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, is a wonderful tribute to the Batgirl no one expected. Over the last two years Bryan Q. Miller took Stephanie Brown from a supporting player to leading player and, in my opinion as well as many others, the star of one the best books month in and month out from DC Comics. But as we know, Barbara Gordon is once again Batgirl and Stephanie is no longer going to be wearing the cowl. But before we bid the former “Girl Wonder” goodbye, Miller sketched out what he saw for Stephanie’s future in 7 wonderful splash pages, #12-18, in this final issue. And below you will find Miller’s notes on those issues including more detail on Steph’s future. For those of you haven’t read it, there are spoilers.

PAGE 12 - A general, mission-statement type vision for Steph.  Told Pere to go crazy with this one, like he was drawing his own cover to this issue.  This is also the first of the many times we’ll see Mercy flowers worked into the fabric of Steph’s visions.  Wanna see some panel description?  Here you go!

PANEL ONE

SPLASH.  What I’d like to call a “classic” Pere montage page (think the Road Home thug fight or the helicopter page from 23) – Batgirl swinging through the night (or in a swan dive); Batgirl fighting thugs; etc.  Basically, a page that in a very movie poster way celebrates everything that’s great about our girl.  Heroic.  Your own version of the cover to this very issue.  If this were the movie poster of what the series has been so far, how would you do it?  That’s what this splash is.' Bryan Q Miller again, I'll tease these out slowly! But you can find them all here
Also at first I did not notice the checkmate thing but the different spelling of nightwing to Knightwing caught my attention so I read more.
Also my favourite Steph tribute on youtube is definitely this.

----------


## Red obin

'PAGE 14 - The Blackest Night tie in I never got to write. She knows Blackest Night happened, but didn’t get to participate.  If things were to go down, zombie style again, this is how she (and I) would have liked to see things play out.  That Ghost fellow Damian beheaded when he first arrived in Gotham would probably have a bone to pick with the Boy Wonder.

EXT. ALLEY – GOTHAM – NIGHT

PANEL ONE

'As arbitrary BLACK LANTERNS edge in from beyond the panel, BLUE LANTERN BATGIRL (blue construct staff), RED LANTERN DAMIAN/ROBIN (with red construct swords, red plasma vomit dribbling from his angry mouth) and GREEN LANTERN ORACLE (Babs suspended in a green construct mech-suit) prepare to fight.'- More Miller!

----------


## Red obin

Sorry to post again on this thread, but what issues does Batgirl the lesson trade actually collect as I have seen contradicting sources saying 15-22 and 15-24?

----------


## millernumber1

> Sorry to post again on this thread, but what issues does Batgirl the lesson trade actually collect as I have seen contradicting sources saying 15-22 and 15-24?


It's 15-24. That is the confusing nature of the solicits for that trade, that I only cleared up when I got my own copy.  :Smile: 

Never be sorry for posting about Steph!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> It's 15-24. That is the confusing nature of the solicits for that trade, that I only cleared up when I got my own copy. 
> 
> Never be sorry for posting about Steph!


Thank you a lot, that is great to know and is what i suspected, I only asked as I just saw someone over on a DC thread claim that they did not collect her final issues in a trade. EDIT: Just out of interest is there any bonus material in the back as well?

'PAGE 16 - Graduation would have been a huge moment for Steph.  The Mercy’s laying it on thicker now, trying to keep Stephanie entranced.  Naturally, even in a desirable fantasy (graduating with honors), Stephanie can’t avoid danger.  The Royal Flush gang crashes the party.  Also, Pere loves his authentic martial arts poses.  Because he knows authentic martial arts!  Once you read the panel description, you’ll notice that Pere (to great benefit) added Crystal in the bleachers, the only person watching the scene.

INT. GOTHAM U. SPORTS COMPLEX

PANEL ONE

SPLASH. STEPHANIE AT HER COLLEGE GRADUATION – she’s in her cap and gown, striking a hero’s pose as THE ROYAL FLUSH GANG comes crashing in through the windows. Graduates, the Dean, etc. go running for cover.' So many Breakdowns!

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you a lot, that is great to know and is what i suspected, I only asked as I just saw someone over on a DC thread claim that they did not collect her final issues in a trade. EDIT: Just out of interest is there any bonus material in the back as well?


Yeah, it has 23 and 24, definitely, though there are some solicits that say it does not have those final two issues (which would be THE WORST!). Which thread was that?

There's not any bonus material, since there weren't any variant covers, and no sketches or anything were included, sadly.

----------


## Red obin

> Yeah, it has 23 and 24, definitely, though there are some solicits that say it does not have those final two issues (which would be THE WORST!). Which thread was that?
> 
> There's not any bonus material, since there weren't any variant covers, and no sketches or anything were included, sadly.


I believe that it was over in the July solicit thread as someone mentioned the new Batgirl trade collections. Shame there is not any bonus material, but it is not too bigger deal.

'PAGE 17 - The Mercy’s vice-like grip on Steph’s mind tightens, pulling out all the stops - married (though the husband is noticeably absent - away on business… or something more tragic? The lack of a specific husband speaks to Steph not defining happiness by any one man.) with child.  She didn’t have the proper chance to know her child the first time around, so this is a HIGHLY desirable situation for Stephanie.  And apparently, city-murdering Prometheus is being celebrated on the child’s wall.  Maybe there was a reboot. HI-YO!

INT. CHILD’S BEDROOM – HIGH-RISE APARTMENT - NIGHT

PANEL ONE

SPLASH. BACKGROUND: Floor-to ceiling windows look out over the perpetually pinkish-purple night sky of Neo-Gotham (ref. Batman Beyond).  The BAT SIGNAL slices up through the sky.  FOREGROUND: ADULT STEPHANIE (35, shorter hair – maybe use the Carey Mulligan cut below as ref.).  She’s a hot mom, putting an adorable RAVEN-HAIRED BOY to bed.  He’s maybe 5.  A few futuristic looking toys scattered about.  Maybe the Wayne-Powers tower in the distance, too. WEDDING BAND ON HER FINGER.'

----------


## millernumber1

> I believe that it was over in the July solicit thread as someone mentioned the new Batgirl trade collections. Shame there is not any bonus material, but it is not too bigger deal.


There was the nice Cully Hamner variant cover for #1 included in Batgirl Rising, but other than that, none that I can recall (at work, so can't check them).  It would be pretty nice if there was some bonus material in the reprints, but so far, they haven't had much that I know if (I got the Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka volume 1 reprint, and it didn't have any, I think).

----------


## Red obin

'PAGE 15 - Steph never did get to have an adventure with Cass during the pages of the book - this adventure/vision finds Batgirl Steph and Skeets on an adventure through time to find a wayward Booster, joined by Batgirls Babs and Cass.

EXT. WWII AIRFIELD

PANEL ONE

SPLASH.  An end table in a living room.  A BLACK MERCY IN A VASE next to a 5 by 7 framed photo – black and white, it’s a WWII-era group shot of the BLACKHAWKS standing proudly in front of a B-17 BOMBER (ZINDA painted on the side).  And who’s standing there, arm in arm with the fellas?  CASSANDRA CAIN BATGIRL (traditional suit), STEPHANIE BATGIRL & BARBARA BATGIRL (traditional suit)… SKEETS floating nearby. 1944 engraved on the frame.' Penultimate break down

----------


## millernumber1

Oh, man, I totally missed Skeets - probably because I didn't know who he was until I read 52 last year.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> Oh, man, I totally missed Skeets - probably because I didn't know who he was until I read 52 last year.


Same, I read that and went. "Wait Skeets was there?!' before going back and checking. Final look as Steph's hallucinations.

'PAGE 13 - What Steph envisioned could be possible, were adventures to continue with her Super Friends.  Stephs gal squad from last issue, on an adventure versus the Queen of Fables.  PERHAPS this was going to be an arc in the next run of the series.  You know just MAYBE.  Side note: last issue, when the lady-cavalry arrives to lend a hand, Mia-Speedy was originally a part of the gang, but I was then told I could not have access to her.  Star Girl stepped up in Mias stead.

EXT. STORYBOOK KINGDOM  DAY

PANEL ONE

SPLASH. The Girls from Issue 23  Stargirl, Bombshell, Miss Martian, Supergirl and Batgirl  an action scene.  Theyre in fairy-tale/medieval versions of their costumes, fighting off an onslaught of fairies, non-descript Snow White-style dwarves, etc.  Maybe a dragon on its way down from the sky.  A Disney-esque castle in the distance.  And above it all, Disney-poster style, the QUEEN OF FABLES, looming on the upper gilded edge of the splash.'

----------


## millernumber1

Oh, you know. Stuff.

Sniff sniff.

----------


## Red obin

So my Batgirl the lesson trade arrived yesterday and I just read through it all in one sitting and wow, just wow, it's so amazing. I had previously read all the issues digitally a couple of years ago and own a couple of the individual issues, but I find when you read digital you don't get that same attachment to a comic and thus do not remember it as much or reread it. So you miss Steph's witty one liners. I had almost completely forgotten most of the Klarion adventure, including Steph's kiss. As a Brit, I am still not sure whether I like or dislike DC England, as I love the zaniness but feel like I should be offended by the stereotypes!(Don't worry, I'm not and I love the whole Greenwich mean time concept)
The actual trade itself is very nice too, with great formatting.(I could just be biased because I am a Steph fan) 10 issues is also a good length as you get loads of content. I brought it used, but it was actually in better condition than most brand new books I buy

Good quote which I had forgotten:
""Love" might be great, but you know what else is good for the heart?"
*"Blood!"*

Once I get the new Steph trade coming out soon, whcih I already have half the issues of, all I will be missing is #13 and #14, so I will either have to wait for a second trade or scout them out on ebay.

----------


## millernumber1

I think you're right about digital not creating the same attachment, which is weird, since I read almost all of my comics digitally. I kind of hope that they have a Steph sale when the new trade comes out, since I want to directly support BQM, Pere Perez, Dustin Nguyen, and Lee Garbett (which my buying all of the issues secondhand sadly does not). (As for being offended by the stereotypes, as an American, I have the same question mark when I'm reading Morrison, Millar, Ennis, and Ellis.  :Wink:  ).

The Lesson is a really strong trade - partially I think that's because it's a really strong series collected!

As for the missing bits - that's a hard choice. #13 and 14 are really excellent issues (I'm personally hoping that DC is lying in solicits again, and we're getting #13 as originally solicited  :Wink:  ).

The end of Steph's Batgirl is such a bittersweet thing - on the one hand, that final issue is really impressive in its structure and emotional impact. On the other, it's clear from the last arc that BQM had so much more planned for the Scythe, Nick Gage, and Steph in general. #23 feels well paced, but so much is cut off in the character arcs.

----------


## Assam

> The end of Steph's Batgirl is such a bittersweet thing - on the one hand, that final issue is really impressive in its structure and emotional impact. On the other, it's clear from the last arc that BQM had so much more planned for the Scythe, Nick Gage, and Steph in general. #23 feels well paced, but so much is cut off in the character arcs.


The really sad thing is that between Cass's solo, Steph's solo, and Babs' New52 solo, Steph's solo was the only one to get even a partially satisfying ending. While Cass's end was meant to lead into her heel-turn, and people have told me that the end of Nu52Batgirl was as bad as the rest of Burnside, Steph's ending at least pulled at your heart strings in all the right ways, while ALSO inspiring tons of fanfiction with Steph's visions. (And also, with Barry now a shell of his former self, I really can't think of a better candidate to be the Blue Lantern of Earth than Steph)

----------


## millernumber1

> The really sad thing is that between Cass's solo, Steph's solo, and Babs' New52 solo, Steph's solo was the only one to get even a partially satisfying ending. While Cass's end was meant to lead into her heel-turn, and people have told me that the end of Nu52Batgirl was as bad as the rest of Burnside, Steph's ending at least pulled at your heart strings in all the right ways, while ALSO inspiring tons of fanfiction with Steph's visions. (And also, with Barry now a shell of his former self, I really can't think of a better candidate to be the Blue Lantern of Earth than Steph)


Cass's solo ending was...weirdly unsatisfying. I wanted to feel a sense of accomplishment, but...what did she accomplish? She beat Shiva again? And the OYL Evil Cass was completely stupid, and I don't really see how it comes out of that, since Ghost!Steph tells Cass she wants to save everyone...and you go from that into just killing lots of people?

Steph as Blue Lantern...that would be a really interesting idea. Has any character ever crossed offices like that in such a major way before?

----------


## Assam

> Cass's solo ending was...weirdly unsatisfying. I wanted to feel a sense of accomplishment, but...what did she accomplish? She beat Shiva again? And the OYL Evil Cass was completely stupid, and I don't really see how it comes out of that, since Ghost!Steph tells Cass she wants to save everyone...and you go from that into just killing lots of people?
> 
> Steph as Blue Lantern...that would be a really interesting idea. Has any character ever crossed offices like that in such a major way before?


Here's what happened: Gabrych was told by editorial that following OYL, Cass was going to be a new enemy for Tim. What I THINK he was trying to do was set her on that path by having Steph's ghost (How did that work if she wasn't dead? LOL) show her the destroyed Bludhaven, where she'd made several close friends, and between them and Steph herself, this would motivate Cass to start killing villains as an anti-hero, so that the people she'd grown to love wouldn't be hurt anymore. 

It's still not a good idea, and I personally don't feel that even THAT would get Cass to kill, but had a proper arc come out with a good writer, it might have worked. 

Unfortunately, Beechen got the assignment, and he didn't actually READ Cass's solo book, so Gabrych's set-up was completely ignored. And also why her personality was unrecognizable, she was able to speak perfectly, and why Beechen had Tim claim that Bruce had taught him and Cass Navajo. 

As for characters crossing offices...some minor examples, but nothing on the scale of a major Batman character becoming a cosmic character.

----------


## millernumber1

> Here's what happened: Gabrych was told by editorial that following OYL, Cass was going to be a new enemy for Tim. What I THINK he was trying to do was set her on that path by having Steph's ghost (How did that work if she wasn't dead? LOL) show her the destroyed Bludhaven, where she'd made several close friends, and between them and Steph herself, this would motivate Cass to start killing villains as an anti-hero, so that the people she'd grown to love wouldn't be hurt anymore. 
> 
> It's still not a good idea, and I personally don't feel that even THAT would get Cass to kill, but had a proper arc come out with a good writer, it might have worked. 
> 
> Unfortunately, Beechen got the assignment, and he didn't actually READ Cass's solo book, so Gabrych's set-up was completely ignored. And also why her personality was unrecognizable, she was able to speak perfectly, and why Beechen had Tim claim that Bruce had taught him and Cass Navajo. 
> 
> As for characters crossing offices...some minor examples, but nothing on the scale of a major Batman character becoming a cosmic character.


Beechen. Man. That guy. It almost makes me glad that Steph was dead when he was writing.

----------


## Red obin

On one hand I am happy Steph's series is not too long otherwise Bryan Q Miller would leave eventually and it would lose it's charm or it would get series fatigue. However, It would have been nice to maybe get a dozen more issues.  Also the ending is debatably my favourite series ending in any comic and not only does it conclude Batgirl nicely, it concludes Stephanie Brown's story over her past 20 years so nicely as she has truly become her own person and has evolved as a character with better motivations.

I do wonder as to why Miller was not allowed to use Mia Dearden in Batgirl #23 as she showed up in TT #100 along with the other titans including Miss Martian.

----------


## millernumber1

> On one hand I am happy Steph's series is not too long otherwise Bryan Q Miller would leave eventually and it would lose it's charm or it would get series fatigue. However, It would have been nice to maybe get a dozen more issues.  Also the ending is debatably my favourite series ending in any comic and not only does it conclude Batgirl nicely, it concludes Stephanie Brown's story over her past 20 years so nicely as she has truly become her own person and has evolved as a character with better motivations.
> 
> I do wonder as to why Miller was not allowed to use Mia Dearden in Batgirl #23 as she showed up in TT #100 along with the other titans including Miss Martian.


I think Miller would have been fine for at least another year - his plans clearly indicated he wanted to. Plus, he stayed on the Smallville comics for like 5 years, so he clearly has the stamina.

BQM was constantly being told he couldn't use characters - Oracle (after Birds of Prey/Death of Oracle screwed that up), Wendy (leading to her leaving abruptly), Steph's baby, etc. It's amazing that the series got produced at all, for all the unnecessary interference editorial put on him.

----------


## Red obin

> I think Miller would have been fine for at least another year - his plans clearly indicated he wanted to. Plus, he stayed on the Smallville comics for like 5 years, so he clearly has the stamina.
> 
> BQM was constantly being told he couldn't use characters - Oracle (after Birds of Prey/Death of Oracle screwed that up), Wendy (leading to her leaving abruptly), Steph's baby, etc. It's amazing that the series got produced at all, for all the unnecessary interference editorial put on him.


I can see why Babara was limited due to BoP, death of Oracle etc. I can also see why DC might not want to revisit Steph's baby, even if the plot was a good idea. Was Steph's baby actually mentioned after her return(excluding Convergence)? It was not mentioned in Batgirl, I don't think, but what about Robin? Wendy and Mia are strange though as it was so close to the reboot and they were hardly being used elsewhere. I wonder what other restrictions BQM was put under.

----------


## millernumber1

> I can see why Babara was limited due to BoP, death of Oracle etc. I can also see why DC might not want to revisit Steph's baby, even if the plot was a good idea. Was Steph's baby actually mentioned after her return(excluding Convergence)? It was not mentioned in Batgirl, I don't think, but what about Robin? Wendy and Mia are strange though as it was so close to the reboot and they were hardly being used elsewhere. I wonder what other restrictions BQM was put under.


I don't see why Babs couldn't still be in Steph's life, though. She didn't spend all her time with the Birds!

I think Convergence was the first time Steph's baby was mentioned since War Crimes. I don't recall any mention in Robin or any of Steph's other appearances - BQM said it was another editorial mandate.

The really frustrating thing is the n52 was so last minute that authors didn't get the word with enough time to wrap things up (BQM says he had an advantage in that he was ahead on his scripts, so it was rewriting, rather than trying to figure it out last minute), but editorial was still being a jerk about continuity for no good reason.

----------


## Assam

> The really frustrating thing is the n52 was so last minute that authors didn't get the word with enough time to wrap things up (BQM says he had an advantage in that he was ahead on his scripts, so it was rewriting, rather than trying to figure it out last minute), but editorial was still being a jerk about continuity for no good reason.


Yeah, very few books got good conclusions. Steph's was one, but to my recollection, the only ongoing title to get a true, proper finale, was Secret Six.

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #957 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:

Screenshot_20170427-112550.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Detective Comics #957 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> Attachment 48613


Very, very nice looking. I'm guessing they haven't revealed the main cover yet. 

Also, anyone recognize the dude on the right? Are THEY the 90's character with a re-design?

----------


## millernumber1

> Detective Comics #957 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> Attachment 48613


WANT! (Also, have they posted the normal cover yet? This sounds like it's going to be another case where I have to make a hard choice about which Steph cover I buy).

----------


## millernumber1

> Very, very nice looking. I'm guessing they haven't revealed the main cover yet. 
> 
> Also, anyone recognize the dude on the right? Are THEY the 90's character with a re-design?



I think that's Wrath, the villain of the issue.

----------


## Frontier

> Very, very nice looking. I'm guessing they haven't revealed the main cover yet. 
> 
> Also, anyone recognize the dude on the right? Are THEY the 90's character with a re-design?


I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be Wrath with his New 52 design.

Edit: Missed it by that much  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be Wrath with his New 52 design.
> 
> Edit: Missed it by that much .


Ah, gotcha.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Detective Comics #957 variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque:
> 
> Attachment 48613


She is back!? I have to catch up with 'Tec.

----------


## millernumber1

> She is back!? I have to catch up with 'Tec.


Do it! This Cass arc has been really good!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> detective comics #957 variant cover by rafael albuquerque:
> 
> Attachment 48613


thank you... I liked... She continues with the old spoiler mask.

----------


## Assam

> thank you... I liked... Batman is here... Who is the other character?


The villain, Wrath.

----------


## adrikito

> The villain, Wrath.


For one moment I forget his name... I know about him.. Sorry.. 

Good avatar of Cass in the last chapter of detective comics.

----------


## WonderNight

> thank you... I liked... She continues with the old spoiler mask.


i like the new 52 mask better :Frown:  guess it's just me :Confused:

----------


## millernumber1

> i like the new 52 mask better guess it's just me


I like them both, but I kind of like the n52 better because it leaves her upper face clear. However, I was tired of them drawing her with her mask off, so if this is what it takes for her to keep her identity secret, I'm mostly okay with it.

(My favorite of all is her Batgirl cowl, of course. Though her Robin domino was great too!)

----------


## Assam

> I like them both, but I kind of like the n52 better because it leaves her upper face clear. However, I was tired of them drawing her with her mask off, so if this is what it takes for her to keep her identity secret, I'm mostly okay with it.
> 
> (My favorite of all is her Batgirl cowl, of course. Though her Robin domino was great too!)


The best thing about her Robin domino? It was magic and made her hair quadruple in size!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> The best thing about her Robin domino? It was magic and made her hair quadruple in size!


It WAS magic! Man, I miss Steph Robin. (Though Pete Woods in the lovely issue Detective Comics 796 did draw a more "typical" Steph haircut.) I have Robin 126 on the wall of my cube at work, so I can look at her flaming hair of justice whenever I feel down.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> It WAS magic! Man, I miss Steph Robin. (Though Pete Woods in the lovely issue Detective Comics 796 did draw a more "typical" Steph haircut.) I have Robin 126 on the wall of my cube at work, so I can look at her flaming hair of justice whenever I feel down.


Nice! Having something to look at when I feel down is why, among several other posters and drawings, I have that art I had commissioned of Cass (Batgirl), Steph (Spoiler), and Babs (Oracle) all together on my wall. 

Steph's hair WAS rather inconsistent as Robin. For instance, she also had her normal hair on this cover: 

000.jpg

Oh, and as an aside, have you noticed how even with how short her tenure actually was, people STILL downplay how long she was Robin. I've seen some people say she only had the role in two or three issues.  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

> Nice! Having something to look at when I feel down is why, among several other posters and drawings, I have that art I had commissioned of Cass (Batgirl), Steph (Spoiler), and Babs (Oracle) all together on my wall. 
> 
> Steph's hair WAS rather inconsistent as Robin. For instance, she also had her normal hair on this cover: 
> 
> Attachment 48618
> 
> Oh, and as an aside, have you noticed how even with how short her tenure actually was, people STILL downplay how long she was Robin. I've seen some people say she only had the role in two or three issues.


Those James Jean covers were one of the only redeeming things about War Games. I think she mostly had the flaming hair of justice for the interiors of that issue.

Have I noticed people belittling Steph's role as Robin? Nahhhhhh...oh, wait. Yup. All the time! Steph was Robin for three months, in and out of universe, and she was in three issues of Robin, and issue of Tec, Batgirl, and Teen Titans - so six issues. Pretty solid, I think, for a cruel stunt.

----------


## Assam

> Those James Jean covers were one of the only redeeming things about War Games. I think she mostly had the flaming hair of justice for the interiors of that issue.
> 
> Have I noticed people belittling Steph's role as Robin? Nahhhhhh...oh, wait. Yup. All the time! Steph was Robin for three months, in and out of universe, and she was in three issues of Robin, and issue of Tec, Batgirl, and Teen Titans - so six issues. Pretty solid, I think, for a cruel stunt.


Yeah, the big hair was present throughout the actual issue. Jean's covers were the best part of the event, yeah. (Besides Steph's actual time as Robin, of course)

----------


## adrikito

> i like the new 52 mask better guess it's just me


I liked too.. But... No problem.

----------


## Caivu

I made a mistake! That #957 cover is the main one, and by Eddy Barrows.

----------


## millernumber1

> I made a mistake! That #957 cover is the main one, and by Eddy Barrows.


Aha! I found the source: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...-jenny-frison/, and looks like the Albuquerque variant is just Batman being all punchy in a nice yellow color. 

MY CHOICE IS EASY! STEPH COVER!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> i made a mistake! That #957 cover is the main one, and by eddy barrows.


is the cover.. Excellent..

----------


## Red obin

Both covers are great but I will have to get the Steph one. Shame the variant was not for a different issues, as I might have got it.

----------


## Assam

Steph Crane.jpg

Caption This  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph Crane.jpg
> 
> Caption This


Steph: "I'm floating like a butterfly!"

Cass: "Gravity."

Babs: facepalm.

----------


## Red obin

So after seeing that editorial banned BQM from using Mia Dearden in batgirl #23 and reading some classic GA/BC,( specifically the panel which Mia is hanging upside down on a tree branch talking to a disapproving batman)I realised that Steph and Mia would have probobly been good friends and that it would be more believeable than Kara and Steph.

----------


## adrikito

> steph: "i'm floating like a butterfly!"
> 
> cass: "gravity."
> 
> babs: Facepalm.


hahahahahaha... Good

----------


## Katana500

have we heard who the unlikely ally in TEC issue 957 is yet?  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> So after seeing that editorial banned BQM from using Mia Dearden in batgirl #23 and reading some classic GA/BC,( specifically the panel which Mia is hanging upside down on a tree branch talking to a disapproving batman)I realised that Steph and Mia would have probobly been good friends and that it would be more believeable than Kara and Steph.


I think Mia and Steph would be very good friends. I personally adore Batgirl #14, and the World's Finest miniseries (except for the treatment of Catwoman), so I don't want to bash that BFF pairing.(Also: editorial just wouldn't leave Steph's Batgirl alone, eh? How many things and people were banned from that book? Ugh.)




> hahahahahaha... Good


Thanks!  :Smile: 




> have we heard who the unlikely ally in TEC issue 957 is yet?


We have not, except that it's someone who hasn't been seen in a while (I believe that means probably like 10 years, not one or two years), and it's a male character (so not either Catwoman, as I was theorizing originally).

----------


## Katana500

> We have not, except that it's someone who hasn't been seen in a while (I believe that means probably like 10 years, not one or two years), and it's a male character (so not either Catwoman, as I was theorizing originally).


I'm really curious as to who it could be? Do we have a list of suspects  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm really curious as to who it could be? Do we have a list of suspects


Me too! We drew up a list of people several pages ago, but honestly, I don't have any idea!

----------


## Katana500

I'm gonna find the list  :Smile:  

Who do you want it to be? I don't know many old characters so I have no idea

----------


## Assam

> I think Mia and Steph would be very good friends. I personally adore Batgirl #14, and the World's Finest miniseries (except for the treatment of Catwoman), so I don't want to bash that BFF pairing.(Also: editorial just wouldn't leave Steph's Batgirl alone, eh? How many things and people were banned from that book? Ugh.)


SO MUCH editorial blockage in that book!

It really should have been Mia. Nice as the BFF relationship with Kara was, KARA was completely out of character there. Love her or hate her, that incarnation of Kara was a total b**ch. 





> We have not, except that it's someone who hasn't been seen in a while (I believe that means probably like 10 years, not one or two years), and it's a male character (so not either Catwoman, as I was theorizing originally).


I was thinking it might be good old Harold, but then I heard he'd just appeared in All-Star Batman.

----------


## Katana500

> I was thinking it might be good old Harold, but then I heard he'd just appeared in All-Star Batman.


Who is Harold? I'm curious now! So many characters I've never heard off! I learn about new ones everyday  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm gonna find the list  
> 
> Who do you want it to be? I don't know many old characters so I have no idea


Someone cool who will support but not upstage our girl! All of the people I REALLY want it to be (Damian, Eiko, Selina) are not options.




> SO MUCH editorial blockage in that book!
> 
> It really should have been Mia. Nice as the BFF relationship with Kara was, KARA was completely out of character there. Love her or hate her, that incarnation of Kara was a total b**ch.


Had Kara been a terrible person in the years leading up to Steph's run as Batgirl, though? It seemed like DC was sweeping it under the rug for quite a while before Batman Reborn happened.

----------


## Katana500

> Someone cool who will support but not upstage our girl! All of the people I REALLY want it to be (Damian, Eiko, Selina) are not options..


Eiko? I'm afraid I don't know who that is either  :Smile: 
She has a cool name though!

----------


## millernumber1

> Eiko? I'm afraid I don't know who that is either 
> She has a cool name though!


Eiko Hasigawa is the second Catwoman during the n52, written by Geneveive Valentine. She was also one of Selina's love interests, and the daughter of Gotham's Yakuza leader. From Catwoman #42-46, she trained Steph as a vigilante in skills and the strategic/logistical side of their trade. I do recommend the second volume of Valentine's Catwoman, called "Inheritance", to Steph fans. It's darker than a lot of Steph's stories in the n52, but it follows well off of Batman Eternal, and Steph has a nice arc, even though she's definitely in the B plot rather than the A plot.

----------


## Katana500

Thank you! I never knew their was more than one catwoman, and Ill definitely have a look!

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you! I never knew their was more than one catwoman, and Ill definitely have a look!


Oh, yes! Eiko was actually not the first "second Catwoman" - Holly Robinson has also been Catwoman, but not in current continuity, I think.

----------


## Assam

> Who is Harold? I'm curious now! So many characters I've never heard off! I learn about new ones everyday


Harold is a mute hunchback who builds stuff for Batman, was Azrael's partner for a few years, and is generally just a super nice and awesome guy.

----------


## Katana500

oh ok! that's also cool!   :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Harold is a mute hunchback who builds stuff for Batman, was Azrael's partner for a few years, and is generally just a super nice and awesome guy.


Who was, I think, murdered during Hush. But is alive again in All-Star Batman!

----------


## Assam

> Had Kara been a terrible person in the years leading up to Steph's run as Batgirl, though? It seemed like DC was sweeping it under the rug for quite a while before Batman Reborn happened.


By 2007, I think, Kara had stopped being overtly evil, but she still had some nasty tendencies.

----------


## Assam

> Who was, I think, murdered during Hush. But is alive again in All-Star Batman!


God Hush was bad...

And yeah, death can not keep Harold down!

----------


## shadowsgirl

Poor Harold was so ugly, I tried to avoid to look at his face when I was reading the comics. I'm a bad person.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> have we heard who the unlikely ally in TEC issue 957 is yet?





> I think Mia and Steph would be very good friends. I personally adore Batgirl #14, and the World's Finest miniseries (except for the treatment of Catwoman), so I don't want to bash that BFF pairing.(Also: editorial just wouldn't leave Steph's Batgirl alone, eh? How many things and people were banned from that book? Ugh.)
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
> 
> 
> We have not, except that it's someone who hasn't been seen in a while (I believe that means probably like 10 years, not one or two years), and it's a male character (so not either Catwoman, as I was theorizing originally).





> I'm really curious as to who it could be? Do we have a list of suspects





> Me too! We drew up a list of people several pages ago, but honestly, I don't have any idea!


I was on the thebatmanuniverse.net and they have a column where one of their members go through the social media of all the Bat-creative teams to see if they can get a tease at upcoming storylines and such. 

I think one installment featured a tweet from Tynion teasing Anarky. 



> By 2007, I think, Kara had stopped being overtly evil, but she still had some nasty tendencies.


Well, I think by then she was slowly moving into...not so much being a nasty person, but just a teenage girl with superpowers who wants to do good but is under a lot of pressure and stress as a result, which lead her being kind of moody. 

At least that's my take on late Post-Crisis Supergirl.

----------


## Assam

> I think one installment featured a tweet from Tynion teasing Anarky.


Tynion already earned my respect by simply being the one to bring back Cass and Steph...if he brings back f**king Lonnie! Alan Grant personality and all...holy shit, I will love Tynion forever.

Actually, with how Lonnie was all about making things better  big picture wise, he and Steph may have a few things to agree on at the moment.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion already earned my respect by simply being the one to bring back Cass and Steph...if he brings back f**king Lonnie! Alan Grant personality and all...holy shit, I will love Tynion forever.
> 
> Actually, with how Lonnie was all about making things better  big picture wise, he and Steph may have a few things to agree on at the moment.


Lonnie was in the n52 - so I don't think he would count as someone who's been gone a long time? At least, I thought he was in the Detective Comics: Endgame one-shot also featuring Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

chibi stephs.jpg

Just saw this here: http://sorchapan.tumblr.com/post/160...on-making-this

It's incredibly adorable. I call these types of pics "Seeing something through," the line from BQM's Batgirl that references all three of Steph's identities.

----------


## adrikito

> chibi stephs.jpg
> 
> Just saw this here: http://sorchapan.tumblr.com/post/160...on-making-this
> 
> It's incredibly adorable. I call these types of pics "Seeing something through," the line from BQM's Batgirl that references all three of Steph's identities.


I liked. the 3 Stephs..

----------


## Red obin

> chibi stephs.jpg
> 
> Just saw this here: http://sorchapan.tumblr.com/post/160...on-making-this
> 
> It's incredibly adorable. I call these types of pics "Seeing something through," the line from BQM's Batgirl that references all three of Steph's identities.


Trinity of win! :Wink:

----------


## Red obin

It is a shame Lee Garbett does not have more DC credits as his style really compliments the Bat family. After Batgirl the only other time he drew was Batman and Robin #9 where his art was unrecognisable. I'm not sure whether or not it is just him using a different style or just the colourist.
Same goes for Pere Perez, however to a lesser extent as he still has a few more new 52 credits.

----------


## millernumber1

> It is a shame Lee Garbett does not have more DC credits as his style really compliments the Bat family. After Batgirl the only other time he drew was Batman and Robin #9 where his art was unrecognisable. I'm not sure whether or not it is just him using a different style or just the colourist.
> Same goes for Pere Perez, however to a lesser extent as he still has a few more new 52 credits.


That is sad. A lot of the artists I love from Steph's series just aren't working for DC right now - either going indie (Perez and Nguyen) or at Marvel (Garbett).

----------


## Assam

Just found this, and now I am sad:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08...hat-never-was/

WHY DOES DC PASS ON ALL THE BEST IDEAS???!

----------


## millernumber1

> Just found this, and now I am sad:
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/08...hat-never-was/
> 
> WHY DOES DC PASS ON ALL THE BEST IDEAS???!


Because they are either intentionally or unintentionally sexist? Or because there aren't enough of Steph, Misfit, and Cass fans to buy enough books? Or a little of both?

I choose to say it's because Didio is bad.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Because they are either intentionally or unintentionally sexist?


Between their respective treatments of their female characters and Eddie Berganza, there isn't a doubt in my mind that the sexism is intentional. 




> Or because there aren't enough of Steph, Misfit, and Cass fans to buy enough books?


Misfit, maybe, but we both know that isn't true for Cass and Steph.  :Stick Out Tongue:  (also, Cass isn't even involved in this pitch) 




> I choose to say it's because Didio is bad.


Well that's just obvious.

----------


## millernumber1

[QUOTE=unclepulky;2795221]Between their respective treatments of their female characters and Eddie Berganza, there isn't a doubt in my mind that the sexism is intentional. 

Misfit, maybe, but we both know that isn't true for Cass and Steph.  :Stick Out Tongue:  (also, Cass isn't even involved in this pitch) [QUOTE]

Well, I was more thinking about the fact that all three of our beloved no-longer-Batgirls were erased from continuity, while ALL of the boys were kept just fine.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I was more thinking about the fact that all three of our beloved no-longer-Batgirls were erased from continuity, while ALL of the boys were kept just fine.


Ahh, gotcha. 

Yeah, I'll be satisfied if Misfit just comes back in any capacity (Zinda's return gives me a little hope), but even with them back, I won't be forgiving DC for that sexist crap until Cass and Steph's time as Batgirl are officially re-instated. And even then, it'll still be a black mark on their history.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ahh, gotcha. 
> 
> Yeah, I'll be satisfied if Misfit just comes back in any capacity (Zinda's return gives me a little hope), but even with them back, I won't be forgiving DC for that sexist crap until Cass and Steph's time as Batgirl are officially re-instated. And even then, it'll still be a black mark on their history.


Misfit is back, per Batgirl #34. She just hasn't appeared in anything else.

----------


## Assam

> Misfit is back, per Batgirl #34. She just hasn't appeared in anything else.


Yeah, I know, I've seen the panel. I just don't think of a cameo provided by the character's creator as being back though.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I know, I've seen the panel. I just don't think of a cameo provided by the character's creator as being back though.


Well, it's more than nothing, though!  :Smile: 

Re: Black Marks on DC's history - well, that's the whole point of people arguing about Steph's time as Robin or Cass's skill in beating Batman.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> That is sad. A lot of the artists I love from Steph's series just aren't working for DC right now - either going indie (Perez and Nguyen) or at Marvel (Garbett).


Nguyen wrote and drew Lil Gotham so for all I care, he could retire forever. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Katana500

https://twitter.com/xtop/status/8616...090752/photo/1

who is the third person on this cover! also looks so cool  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> https://twitter.com/xtop/status/8616...090752/photo/1
> 
> who is the third person on this cover! also looks so cool


Wrath, the villain of the issue.

----------


## Katana500

awesome he looks cool!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Apparently, he's co-writing the issue: https://twitter.com/xtop/status/861689196813012992

He's been added to the Comixology site as well. This issue is really exciting to me, but also really worrying - we have three co-writers and a guest artist. I hope we're in good hands...

----------


## dietrich



----------


## millernumber1

> 


That's hilarious - where'd it come from?

----------


## dietrich

> That's hilarious - where'd it come from?


IKr

this is the link
http://missinkart.tumblr.com/post/16...our-siblings-i
I think the artist might just be starting out since there wasn't much art  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> IKr
> 
> this is the link
> http://missinkart.tumblr.com/post/16...our-siblings-i
> I think the artist might just be starting out since there wasn't much art


Ah! I thought it looked a bit familiar - I'd seen a couple of their previous pieces before.

----------


## Assam

protective bayboyd.jpg


steph crap.jpg

Going through all of their stuff right now, and I'm digging it all. 

Also, if the Male Robins all had those hairstyles, while some may not like them, we'd at least lose the problem of them looking mostly the same. (I kinda love Tim with a ponytail)

----------


## Dataweaver

I did not follow we are Robin or the robin War. Where we shown what Stephanie was up to in regards to these? If not, it would be a simple retcon to bring something like  back into continuity, without the War Games baggage the original version was a setup for.

----------


## millernumber1

> I did not follow we are Robin or the robin War. Where we shown what Stephanie was up to in regards to these? If not, it would be a simple retcon to bring something like  back into continuity, without the War Games baggage the original version was a setup for.


Aha! Well, unless you want to create a spreadsheet with every single one of Steph's appearances over the 25 years of her existence, I have a resource created with the assistance of such a spreadsheet here!

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/N52

This is my organization of all of Steph's appearances in the New 52, during which Robin War and We Are Robin took place.  However, despite my best efforts, it is a bit confusing, because of the way the editors slotted Batman and Robin Eternal in with her other appearances.

Briefly: immediately after Batman Eternal and her re-introduction, she helped three of the future members of We Are Robin (Riko, Dax, and Dre) to save Lonnie (Anarky)'s mother from the Joker zombies (Detective Comics: Endgame one-shot). She served as a leadership figure, being part of Batman's network including Batwoman and Harper Row, and having her own fanbase among the cape-watchers in Gotham (represented by Riko). She then spent time being mentored/manipulated by Eiko Hasigawa (the second Catwoman and heir to the Yakuza in Gotham) and Selina Kyle (Catwoman #42-46). That left her in a dangerous place, so Babs rescued her and began to mentor her and Bluebird. When Babs left for Japan, Steph and Harper took over patrols for a bit, making a bit of name for themselves in the local media in Burnside, as well as forming some connections with Babs's tech team (Batgirl #46-52).

Then came Mother, and the Robin War. Steph was caught up in the early stages of Batman and Robin Eternal, but was sidelined after four issues. Robin War happens most likely in the middle of Batman and Robin Eternal, and she's not involved with that at all, even though she knows several of the members as previously mentioned.  When the campaign against mother reaches its climax, Red Robin asks her to watch Scarecrow, and she shoots down the villain's pathetic attempts to get her to betray her team (Batman and Robin Eternal #23).  She also gets some mentoring from Dick during that series.

From there, we have a chronological gap until James Tynion made her part of the Detective Comics team, since even though Batgirl featured her in the last three months of the n52, those issues took place before Batman and Robin Eternal (because of Harper's involvement).

So there you have it - Steph knows some of the We Are Robins, but she was not part of the movement, since she's already established and more highly trained than they.

I'm of two minds myself on having Steph join the We Are Robin movement. On the one hand, I agree that having her be Robin would be a nice homage to her history in the other continuity. On the other hand, she's a much more important hero in terms of plotlines and development than any of the We Are Robins except Duke (even though I love literally every other We Are Robin more than Duke. Especially poor Troy.) So having her be part of this slapdash, pawns crushed between titans group of We Are Robins would be a significant step down from her heroic ability and trajectory in Batman Eternal. Ultimately, I am glad she wasn't part of that group, and was in more of a mentoring relationship with Babs in Batgirl.

----------


## Dataweaver

I was thinking of it in terms of showing solidarity with them: something to the effect of “the police are outlawing any identification with Robin, in name or costume? Screw that!” It strikes me as the sort of thing she'd do, and I could see her being a sort of off-screen “fifth trainer” alongside the boys. And once the Robin War is over, she hangs up the costume and goes back to being Spoiler.

----------


## millernumber1

> I was thinking of it in terms of showing solidarity with them: something to the effect of “the police are outlawing any identification with Robin, in name or costume? Screw that!” It strikes me as the sort of thing she'd do, and I could see her being a sort of off-screen “fifth trainer” alongside the boys. And once the Robin War is over, she hangs up the costume and goes back to being Spoiler.


That would be pretty cool. But no, it didn't happen.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

http://nerdist.com/spoiler-returns-b...507570#gallery

Preview for our girl's issue is out!
DTC_957_3.jpgDTC_957_5.jpg

Carmen Carnero's art is gorgeous, which makes sense, since not only did she do some nice fill in work on Victim Syndicate, heavily featuring Steph, she's also one of Greg Rucka's collaborators on Cyclops and Dragon Age: Magekiller, and he tends to pick good artists.  She makes Steph's new/old Spoiler mask look really excellent.

One thing I'm thinking, though, is that the way she's approaching crimefighting feels very Batman - I almost felt like she was playing the Telltale Batman game, thinking her plans through really carefully from stealth.  Batman as the ideal.  I'm hoping that her reconciliation with the Batfamily involves realizing that Batman does have her own and the city's best interests at heart.

----------


## The Whovian

This looks amazing! I can't wait! It's good to see Steph back in 'Tec again.

----------


## WonderNight

> http://nerdist.com/spoiler-returns-b...507570#gallery
> 
> Preview for our girl's issue is out!
> Attachment 49709Attachment 49710
> 
> Carmen Carnero's art is gorgeous, which makes sense, since not only did she do some nice fill in work on Victim Syndicate, heavily featuring Steph, she's also one of Greg Rucka's collaborators on Cyclops and Dragon Age: Magekiller, and he tends to pick good artists.  She makes Steph's new/old Spoiler mask look really excellent.
> 
> One thing I'm thinking, though, is that the way she's approaching crimefighting feels very Batman - I almost felt like she was playing the Telltale Batman game, thinking her plans through really carefully from stealth.  Batman as the ideal.  I'm hoping that her reconciliation with the Batfamily involves realizing that Batman does have her own and the city's best interests at heart.


man i prefer steph's new 52 mask alot more than this mask. just love the blond hair with the costume.

----------


## Chickfighter

> man i prefer steph's new 52 mask alot more than this mask. just love the blond hair with the costume.


Yes, I agree with that. I understand the "it makes more sense" argument, but it's comics, not reality, and I like seeing the hair.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, I agree with that. I understand the "it makes more sense" argument, but it's comics, not reality, and I like seeing the hair.


I liked her old design better as well - but her new one fits her new mood and approach.

----------


## adrikito

> http://nerdist.com/spoiler-returns-b...507570#gallery
> 
> Preview for our girl's issue is out!
> Attachment 49709Attachment 49710



I like the N52/Rebirth Spoiler(I like see her face and hair).. but I am not against the old mask... Good.. She is Spoiler not another character.

----------


## Frontier

I'm personally really glad to finally have Steph's classic mask back. It just didn't feel like Spoiler without it  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> I'm personally really glad to finally have Steph's classic mask back. .


Same. I didn't mind the Nu52 suit at all, but I prefer the more classic Spoiler look. Damn shame _neither_Spoiler suit is as AMAZING as her Robin suit or her Batgirl suit.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like the N52/Rebirth Spoiler(I like see her face and hair).. but I am not against the old mask... Good.. She is Spoiler not another character.





> I'm personally really glad to finally have Steph's classic mask back. It just didn't feel like Spoiler without it .





> Same. I didn't mind the Nu52 suit at all, but I prefer the more classic Spoiler look. Damn shame _neither_Spoiler suit is as AMAZING as her Robin suit or her Batgirl suit.


I actually like her classic Spoiler mask the least of her various outfits - but I think it makes more sense than her constantly taking the mask off in the first two arcs of Tec. Like...I know you're running around without any legal guardians, Steph, but c'mon. Just...keep the mask on during combat...

Also, uncle, I agree that nothing matches the Robin or Batgirls costumes.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

I think her classic and current Spoiler costumes are on par with her Robin and Batgirl costumes, but that's just me   :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

It's kind of amazing how Steph, despite all her different roles, has managed to never have a bad costume. Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl, even Nightwing; it doesn't matter, she always looks great. Hell, if she became Batman, I'm sure she'd make _that_ look great too. (Honestly, with all the other roles she's had, it's bound to happen eventually.)

----------


## millernumber1

> I think her classic and current Spoiler costumes are on par with her Robin and Batgirl costumes, but that's just me  .


I mean, she's definitely spend more time in her Spoiler outfits than her Batgirl and Robin costumes. But they're just so pretty...

And I like seeing her smile.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean, she's definitely spend more time in her Spoiler outfits than her Batgirl and Robin costumes. But they're just so pretty...
> 
> And I like seeing her smile.


I like seeing her try to smile and express herself through her spoiler mask  :Wink: .

----------


## adrikito

*SPOILER NEWS:*

DETECTIVE COMICS #963

Written by James Tynion IV, art by Carmen Carnero, cover by Eddy Barrows, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.

"Longer Chains," part one! Having exiled herself from Batman's world,* Spoiler* has nearly destroyed herself trying to expose the corruption of Gotham City's vigilantes. Fortunately for her, help has arrived...but unfortunately for the city, it's in the form of the mysterious *Anarky*! Is he truly on the side of the people, or is he a dangerous lunatic?
*

SOURCE:*

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...2/dcaugust.htm

----------


## millernumber1

YESYESYESYESYES! Also, uncle will be happy - Anarky is coming!

I'm so excited - we have this lovely issue this week, but also at least a two-part arc coming up! YES!

WOOHOOOOOOOOOOO!

----------


## Assam

> YESYESYESYESYES! Also, uncle will be happy - Anarky is coming!
> 
> I'm so excited - we have this lovely issue this week, but also at least a two-part arc coming up! YES!
> 
> WOOHOOOOOOOOOOO!


Ah, but you forget, Anarky is a character I'm very protective of. Or rather, Lonnie Machin is. If it isn't Lonnie, I don't give a f**k. If it is Lonnie and he's portrayed as anything but a hero with different views and methods, Tynion shall earn my ire. 

On the bright side, yeah, at least it seems Steph is gonna be re-entering the fray for good (Hopefully) after _Intelligence._ So that's great.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah, but you forget, Anarky is a character I'm very protective of. Or rather, Lonnie Machin is. If it isn't Lonnie, I don't give a f**k. If it is Lonnie and he's portrayed as anything but a hero with different views and methods, Tynion shall earn my ire. 
> 
> On the bright side, yeah, at least it seems Steph is gonna be re-entering the fray for good (Hopefully) after _Intelligence._ So that's great.


Well, I hope it's Lonnie, for your sake.  :Smile:  And that he's heroic.

Steph getting an arc of more than one issue is what I hoped for! I should have trusted JT4 to have her back.

----------


## Dataweaver

Hmm I'm always on the lookout for ways to bring elements of pre-Flashpoint back into continuity. _ What if_  this is setup for something like that? Stephanie learns about Tim's vision for the Detective team and stops her current mission of spoiling Batman's operations. Instead, she makes it her mission to turn Tim's vision into reality, resolving Batman's approach isn't working with so instead of tearing it down, I'll build on it until it does work. 

Cue the return of We Are Robin, but repurposed as a support network for crime victims in Gotham City as per Tim's vision. And while she's dealing with the We Are Robin kids, she dons a Robin costume of her own.  She's still Spoiler when she has to engage in special ops; but now she's also (a) Robin. Hmm

----------


## Assam

> Steph getting an arc of more than one issue is what I hoped for! I should have trusted JT4 to have her back.


I never doubted it. He's said from the start he still had plans for her, and unlike DC editorial, that means something from him. 

Gotta wonder though. If Steph rejoins the 'Tec team and no one leaves at the same time, that would mean 7 team member, with Tim still on the way back.  Yeah, we're experimenting with that number with Zatanna in the upcoming arc, but still, that's pretty crowded for a book like this. 

Hmmm, I wonder if the team might end up getting some other, potentially blue haired members, and split into two teams. But it's not like there was a podcast where that possibility was hinted at.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Katana500

> I never doubted it. He's said from the start he still had plans for her, and unlike DC editorial, that means something from him. 
> 
> Gotta wonder though. If Steph rejoins the 'Tec team and no one leaves at the same time, that would mean 7 team member, with Tim still on the way back.  Yeah, we're experimenting with that number with Zatanna in the upcoming arc, but still, that's pretty crowded for a book like this. 
> 
> Hmmm, I wonder if the team might end up getting some other, potentially blue haired members, and split into two teams. But it's not like there was a podcast where that possibility was hinted at.


I like loads of members. If it was split into two teams, who would you want in each  :Smile: ?

----------


## adrikito

If the people is happy with this... I can be happy..

----------


## Assam

> If it was split into two teams, who would you want in each ?


May as well answer this.  :Smile: 

To be fair, I'll only use characters who have appeared in 'Tec in some form, so for example, even though the DCU desperately needs more Dark Vengeance, I won't be throwing Misfit on a team. 

On Team 1: Bruce, Kate, Jean-Paul, Luke, and Renee (Back as The Question, because dammit she was great in that role) 

On Team 2: Cass, Steph, Tim, Basil and, since there _are_ still plans for her, Harper. 

I have no delusions that any eventual set-up would look like this, but its what I'd do. (Although if I didn't have to include Harper, I wouldn't.)

----------


## Katana500

> May as well answer this. 
> 
> To be fair, I'll only use characters who have appeared in 'Tec in some form, so for example, even though the DCU desperately needs more Dark Vengeance, I won't be throwing Misfit on a team. 
> 
> On Team 1: Bruce, Kate, Jean-Paul, Luke, and Renee (Back as The Question, because dammit she was great in that role) 
> 
> On Team 2: Cass, Steph, Tim, Basil and, since there _are_ still plans for her, Harper. 
> 
> I have no delusions that any eventual set-up would look like this, but its what I'd do. (Although if I didn't have to include Harper, I wouldn't.)


I could live with a team set up like that  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

I would also not include Harper as a vigilante - I would prefer her as a civilian who had insight into the world, similar to Leslie herself, but younger.

----------


## Frontier

> I would also not include Harper as a vigilante - I would prefer her as a civilian who had insight into the world, similar to Leslie herself, but younger.


Even though Leslie is pretty young herself these days  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I hope they re-age her at some point.

----------


## millernumber1

> Even though Leslie is pretty young herself these days .
> 
> I hope they re-age her at some point.


Well, she's still old enough to be a mother figure, per Batman #52.

----------


## Frontier

> Well, she's still old enough to be a mother figure, per Batman #52.


Just in a more youthful, "hot mom," sort of way now  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Just in a more youthful, "hot mom," sort of way now


I think Alfred's always thought she was hot, per Gotham Knights  :Wink: 

I wish we had Steph interacting more with Leslie, though. Though I don't want a repeat of Steph's year in Africa...

----------


## Red obin

yes Steph is in the new solicits of the following 'tec arc.

----------


## adrikito

An unlikeable alliance:

an_unlikely_alliance.jpg

Batgirl:
batgirl___stephanie_brown_2.jpg

Batgirl.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> Well, she's still old enough to be a mother figure, per Batman #52.


but she should be around the age of Bruce Parents.

----------


## Atlanta96

Not super excited about another Steph focused arc in 'Tec, Tynion's take on the character was a bit weak. Even worse is the idea of her sharing the book with her badly written, less attractive clone Harper Row. Who should've disappeared once the real Steph reappeared. Having them both in the same book is the definition of redundant.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not super excited about another Steph focused arc in 'Tec, Tynion's take on the character was a bit weak. Even worse is the idea of her sharing the book with her badly written, less attractive clone Harper Row. Who should've disappeared once the real Steph reappeared. Having them both in the same book is the definition of redundant.


Harper isn't in the solicits?

----------


## Atlanta96

> Harper isn't in the solicits?


It's been hinted at.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's been hinted at.


We know she's coming back at some point. Why do you think its this arc?

----------


## Atlanta96

> We know she's coming back at some point. Why do you think its this arc?


I never said this arc.

----------


## millernumber1

> I never said this arc.


Oh, okay. I personally hope it's not this arc. I want a chance at Steph and Cass bonding.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Oh, okay. I personally hope it's not this arc. I want a chance at Steph and Cass bonding.


I personally hope it's none of the arcs.

----------


## Frontier

> I think Alfred's always thought she was hot, per Gotham Knights 
> 
> I wish we had Steph interacting more with Leslie, though. Though I don't want a repeat of Steph's year in Africa...


True, but back then they were closer in age as the older generation of the Batfamily  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> True, but back then they were closer in age as the older generation of the Batfamily .


Well...I mean, we're never actually going to get ages on anyone who's over 20 because that would age Bruce, but I think Alfred was de-aged a bit too with Flashpoint?

Not to derail it too much, though, since this is a Steph thread!

One think I wish were handled better in BQM's Batgirl (which, much as I adore it passionately, does have a few flaws) is the lack of Steph interacting with Leslie. I think it would be tricky, since Steph's mom fills a lot of that role in the comic, but it's kinda sad to see Steph spend a year with Leslie and then just kind of ditch her.

----------


## Frontier

> Well...I mean, we're never actually going to get ages on anyone who's over 20 because that would age Bruce, but I think Alfred was de-aged a bit too with Flashpoint?
> 
> Not to derail it too much, though, since this is a Steph thread!
> 
> One think I wish were handled better in BQM's Batgirl (which, much as I adore it passionately, does have a few flaws) is the lack of Steph interacting with Leslie. I think it would be tricky, since Steph's mom fills a lot of that role in the comic, but it's kinda sad to see Steph spend a year with Leslie and then just kind of ditch her.


Fair enough  :Smile: .

Well, since Steph's mom is now no longer a factor in her life, maybe we could see Leslie filling in that role unless Tynion brings Crystal back.

----------


## millernumber1

That would be nice, but I get the impression that Steph is living completely solo right now  :Frown: .  Unless I'm lucky and she's hiding out with Babs or Eiko or Selina or something.

I asked Tynion last year about Crystal, and his conception of her is that she's basically Cluemaster 2.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Carmen Carnero has quickly become one of my favorite Steph artists with this week's issue of Tec! I liked her previous fill-in work during Victim Syndicate, and I checked out her work with Greg Rucka on the Dragon Age: Magekiller series (still need to reread the same team on Cyclops - it's been a long time), but it was just so appealing and clean here.

Detective Comics (2016-) 957-014.jpg
Steph seems very much like her old Dixon self in visuals here, even though she's much more serious because of her grief.

Detective Comics (2016-) 957-019.jpg
Love her sneaking around Bullock like this - felt very Steph like - sort of like how she would "shhh" people when she was sneaking up on bad guys as Batgirl.

Detective Comics (2016-) 957-020.jpg
Only time we see her face, but it's very nice!

I'm so excited that Carnero is returning to do the second Steph arc after Intelligence wraps up!

----------


## millernumber1

I know we're tearing up the Steph discussion over in the Tec thread for the week, but do any specific Steph fans have thoughts - positive or negative - of today's issue?

----------


## Frontier

That is a beautiful image of Steph without her mask on  :Smile: .

Still pro-mask though  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

Ahaha. I'm pro-mask in the field, anti-mask when she's in civvies. Honestly, though, if we keep getting artists as awesome as Carnero, I'm pretty okay with whatever right now!

----------


## WonderNight

Anti-mask baby :Cool:

----------


## The Whovian

I've heard others say it wasn't that good but I really liked it.

----------


## millernumber1

I like this as a direction, since it seems clear to me that Steph is on an arc, not stuck in a status quo.

----------


## Invisible Kid

I just hope the arc ends with good character development and lessons learned, as opposed to Steph just giving into what Batman says.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just hope the arc ends with good character development and lessons learned, as opposed to Steph just giving into what Batman says.


I agree! I don't want Steph or Batman to be wholly wrong - I think Steph is more in the wrong, but I think Batman had a good note at the end of The Victim Syndicate: "I should have let her grieve. We all should have given ourselves that time. Let her stand in the way, Kate. I believe in our best selves. The versions of ourselves that will prove her wrong. The version of our mission that Tim saw so clearly. But I can't forget the people who have been hurt in this fight anymore. I need to listen. I need to let myself adapt so I can help them. I'll keep tabs on her, to make sure she doesn't set anything too dangerous in motion. But I won't silence her. Because, ultimately, I have to believe that soon enough...we'll all be fighting together again."

----------


## adrikito

> i just hope the arc ends with good character development and lessons learned, as opposed to steph just giving into what batman says.


I hope this too.

----------


## adrikito

This is the Steph that we deserve and we want see soon... A HAPPY STEPH:

steph.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> This is the Steph that we deserve and we want see soon... A HAPPY STEPH:
> 
> steph.jpg


I love that picture. Tim looks so young in the picture. I hope he did give Steph flowers.

One of my favorite authors (Aaron Allston, from my signature), said that readers often have two conflicting desires. They would always ask him, "Why are you so mean to your characters?" and then, "When's the next book?"  To have a new story, you need new conflict, and usually in the middle of the story, the character is unhappy because of that conflict.  I firmly believe that we're in the middle of Steph's new story, and so I'm okay that she's sad - I know it won't be forever.

But it's always good to remember the happy when it's going rough.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

I'm of the opinion that you could have Steph feel more like Steph while still going on a direction similar to this, which I don't feel like Tynion is right now as far as how she's portraying her. 

At least I'm not really feeling his Steph in this issue. 

But that's just me.

----------


## millernumber1

Totally fair! I found a lot of little bits in this issue that really felt like Steph - her talking about being a terrible stealth video game player, her banter with Bullock about donuts, etc. But I do agree she's not in a happy or healthy place. And I look forward to her getting there - but I think that she is getting there, instead of just wallowing in her incorrect beliefs.

It's so hard to wait until August!

----------


## millernumber1

http://www.cbr.com/dc-comics-best-sidekicks/

Steph makes #9 of 15, behind Aqualad, Damian, Arsenal, Cass, Tim, Wally, Babs, and Dick. She beat Jason, Donna, Bette, Captain Marvel Jr and Mary Marvel, and original Squire.

The text of her paragraph (by Pete Imbesi):
_The only character to ever act as both Robin and Batgirl, Stephanie Brown, was originally introduced in a three-issue mini-series as the daughter of the C-list Batman villain Cluemaster in “Detective Comics” #647-649 by writer Chuck Dixon and artists Tom Lyle and Adrienne Roy. When Cluemaster is deemed cured of his criminal insanity, he returns to his family in Gotham only to quickly resume his life of crime. Infuriated, Stephanie became the vigilante Spoiler in order to stop him, and proved popular enough to become a recurring character in Tim Drake’s ongoing Robin series.

Stephanie would begin her stint as Robin after Tim’s father, Jack Drake, discovered his dual life as the third Robin, and forced him to briefly give up his life of vigilantism. After creating a homemade Robin costume and sneaking into the Batcave, she convinces Batman to (reluctantly) train her as Tim’s replacement. Though she fights alongside Batman for a time, she was fired after directly disobeying Batman’s orders. Years later after her apparent death at the hands of Black Mask, Stephanie would return first as Spoiler, and later as the fourth Batgirl until the “New 52” event saw Barbara Gordon return to the role._

Text is pretty solid, though seems a bit odd to choose "fourth" as your number for Batgirl. For me, it's either third (because she's the only the third one to headline a Batgirl series or mini), or fifth (if Bette counts, so does Helena, or vice versa). Reads very much like an entry in a DC encyclopedia. (Also, crediting the colorist for her creation is...I mean, it's nice for the colorist, but a bit non-standard).

They used Marcio Takara's gorgeous artwork of all three versions of Steph.

----------


## Frontier

I'm not sure if I'd put Steph on a list of the best sidekicks. 

Not that she's not a good one in her own right and way, but when I think of Steph I think "sidekick who was failed by their mentor." 

I don't want to think that, but I do. Unless we're talking Babs, but she was never Babs' sidekick. I guess if you think of her as Tim's sidekick for a period it might work better...

----------


## millernumber1

Hmm, interesting thought. It's definitely part of her independent nature that she tends to work more with equals like Robin, or with operators who need a more independent agent than a sidekick like Oracle.

But Babs wasn't really a sidekick to Batman in the way Robin was, so I think you could consider Steph as Batgirl as a similar type of sidekick to Dickbats and Outsider Bruce (and in Batman, Inc, to Bruce, as the sidekick she should have been all along).

I think she got there eventually.

----------


## Assam

There are a few characters on this list I wouldn't ever consider sidekicks. Those being: Mary Marvel and CM3, Babs, Steph, and Cass. 

Billy never really took on a leader role with his siblings, save by default on occasion what with it being his book, but I mostly consider them all equals. 

Babs worked with Bruce and Dick, but she was always more of an independent figure. Steph was always  Tim's equal, not his sidekick, and her brief time as an actual sidekick, while enjoyable, wasn't a successful tenure because of Bruce.  As for her Batgirl tenure, I'm gonna have to disagree with you Miller. By the time she was Batgirl, I'd say she'd gone beyond sidekick, and was as independent an agent as Black Bat or Red Robin, but with Bruce still able to call upon her. 

And as for Cass, no, she wasn't ever a sidekick either. (Although I do like how high up they put her.  :Smile: )

----------


## millernumber1

Fair interpretation. I'm still not fully sure of where "sidekick" ends and "partner" begins.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Hmm, interesting thought. It's definitely part of her independent nature that she tends to work more with equals like Robin, or with operators who need a more independent agent than a sidekick like Oracle.
> 
> But Babs wasn't really a sidekick to Batman in the way Robin was, so I think you could consider Steph as Batgirl as a similar type of sidekick to Dickbats and Outsider Bruce (and in Batman, Inc, to Bruce, as the sidekick she should have been all along).
> 
> I think she got there eventually.


That's definitely a sensible and fair way of looking at it and good point on the kind of...distant sidekick, that the Batgirls can be even if some depictions have them working very closely with Batman.




> Fair interpretation. I'm still not fully sure of where "sidekick" ends and "partner" begins.


I tend to just conflate the two  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> That's definitely a sensible and fair way of looking at it and good point on the kind of...distant sidekick, that the Batgirls can be even if some depictions have them working very closely with Batman.
> 
> I tend to just conflate the two .


I think "sidekick" has a dismissive connotation that "partner" does not. "Apprentice" is better than sidekick, and probably more accurate to who Robin is to Batman. Batgirl is definitely not an apprentice, though - more a journeyman, to warp the metaphor even more.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I think "sidekick" has a dismissive connotation that "partner" does not. "Apprentice" is better than sidekick, and probably more accurate to who Robin is to Batman. Batgirl is definitely not an apprentice, though - more a journeyman, to warp the metaphor even more.


I've personally never thought of "sidekick" in a dismissive connotation, but then I usually also associate DC sidekicks with being partners and protege's without one element negating the other. 

I would say there have definitely been depictions of Batgirl where she's served as both a partner and an apprentice - a sidekick, and that can extend to how she works with Batman even if she's not exactly the latter two. 

But then I prefer a Batgirl who's close to Batman, personally.

----------


## Invisible Kid

> I've personally never thought of "sidekick" in a dismissive connotation, but then I usually also associate DC sidekicks with being partners and protege's without one element negating the other. 
> 
> I would say there have definitely been depictions of Batgirl where she's served as both a partner and an apprentice - a sidekick, and that can extend to how she works with Batman even if she's not exactly the latter two. 
> 
> But then I prefer a Batgirl who's close to Batman, personally.


I understand the wish for a Batgirl who is close to Batman, as it creates an interesting dynamic, which I personally love. However, using the word sidekick to describe that relationship, is kind of off-putting. I'm not sure how exactly to word this, but Batgirl-Batman's-Sidekick kind of makes it seem like Batgirl does not exist without Batman, that she'd hang up the cowl without him. I think the word sidekick, while perhaps not technically, seems to relay utter reliance on another hero.

IDK, this might just come from a childhood spent watching Young Justice: "They're treating us like sidekicks!" and "I thought I was your partner." that type of thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> I understand the wish for a Batgirl who is close to Batman, as it creates an interesting dynamic, which I personally love. However, using the word sidekick to describe that relationship, is kind of off-putting. I'm not sure how exactly to word this, but Batgirl-Batman's-Sidekick kind of makes it seem like Batgirl does not exist without Batman, that she'd hang up the cowl without him. I think the word sidekick, while perhaps not technically, seems to relay utter reliance on another hero.
> 
> IDK, this might just come from a childhood spent watching Young Justice: "They're treating us like sidekicks!" and "I thought I was your partner." that type of thing.


I see and feel what you're saying - but I think out of universe, as a fan, it's not as demeaning to say that Batgirl is a Batman sidekick. She is a character made as a response and expansion of the Batman idea, and she wouldn't exist without Batman - and that's a good thing, since the world is a better place for Steph being in it.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I see and feel what you're saying - but I think out of universe, as a fan, it's not as demeaning to say that Batgirl is a Batman sidekick. She is a character made as a response and expansion of the Batman idea, and she wouldn't exist without Batman - and that's a good thing, since the world is a better place for Steph being in it.


I totally agree with this  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Bruce (13 Years ago): "Stephanie, you disobeyed an order that any other partner of mine would have as well in your shoes. YOU'RE FIRED!" 

Bruce (Today): "What's that Dick, Damian killed Wally West? And while he's ultimately alive, he now has a permanent heart condition? Well, he's my only son so just tell him not to do it again. Of course he can keep being Robin and the leader of the Teen Titans! What's that? Yes Dick, I would have done the same thing to Barry. It's not like MY fans will ever get mad unless I lose a fight." 

 :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

Ahahaha. I laugh so I won't cry or fume.

To make it happier, have a pretty Stephgirl by Lee Garbett, originator of Steph's look as Batgirl and main artist for her first year.
Stephgirl.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Bruce (13 Years ago): "Stephanie, you disobeyed an order that any other partner of mine would have as well in your shoes. YOU'RE FIRED!" 
> 
> Bruce (Today): "What's that Dick, Damian killed Wally West? And while he's ultimately alive, he now has a permanent heart condition? Well, he's my only son so just tell him not to do it again. Of course he can keep being Robin and the leader of the Teen Titans! What's that? Yes Dick, I would have done the same thing to Barry. It's not like MY fans will ever get mad unless I lose a fight."


Well, it's not like Bruce is overseeing Damian or working that closely together with him anymore so I wouldn't be surprised if he's completely oblivious to this unless someone (like Dick) tells him. 

We're lucky to get a single panel with the two of them talking to each other. He's actually had more significant moments with Steph in Rebirth then he has had with his own son, arguably. 

Although I don't think Bruce would ever condone what Damian did.




> Ahahaha. I laugh so I won't cry or fume.
> 
> To make it happier, have a pretty Stephgirl by Lee Garbett, originator of Steph's look as Batgirl and main artist for her first year.
> Stephgirl.jpg


That really is pretty! Love it.

----------


## Assam

> Well, it's not like Bruce is overseeing Damian or working that closely together with him anymore so I wouldn't be surprised if he's completely oblivious to this unless someone (like Dick) tells him. 
> 
> We're lucky to get a single panel with the two of them talking to each other. He's actually had more significant moments with Steph in Rebirth then he has had with his own son, arguably. 
> 
> Although I don't think Bruce would ever condone what Damian did.


Stuff happens even when the characters aren't on the page. For Bruce to not hear about this from anybody would be absolutely ridiculous. He may not be overseeing him...BUT CLEARLY HE SHOULD BE. Either do that or strip the Robin mantle from him.

----------


## Assam

> To make it happier, have a pretty Stephgirl by Lee Garbett, originator of Steph's look as Batgirl and main artist for her first year.
> Stephgirl.jpg


Very nice!

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, it's not like Bruce is overseeing Damian or working that closely together with him anymore so I wouldn't be surprised if he's completely oblivious to this unless someone (like Dick) tells him. 
> 
> We're lucky to get a single panel with the two of them talking to each other. He's actually had more significant moments with Steph in Rebirth then he has had with his own son, arguably. 
> 
> Although I don't think Bruce would ever condone what Damian did.
> 
> That really is pretty! Love it.


I think that's overstating it a bit - Teen Titans, Superman, and Super Sons (the latter two by the team who did Batman and Robin in the n52, so no surprise) have had a fair number of Damian/Bruce interactions with meaning. Steph's had the end of Rise of the Batmen and the third and fifth issues of The Victim Syndicate. I'd say their interactions are comparable, rather than Steph having more. But it is a commentary on the current state of the Bruce/Damian relationship.

Garbett is an artist who is capable of really pretty stuff, but is a bit more inconsistent than I'd like, so I haven't followed him as much as I followed Nguyen or even Perez after Batgirl ended. But when he's on his game, there's nothing to match him. And what he did for Steph can't be forgotten - the side-ribs are part of her iconography now.

----------


## Frontier

> Stuff happens even when the characters aren't on the page. For Bruce to not hear about this from anybody would be absolutely ridiculous. He may not be overseeing him...BUT CLEARLY HE SHOULD BE. Either do that or strip the Robin mantle from him.


I think it's ridiculous enough that we barely see them together as is. 

Him not knowing about this would only be a little above that in my opinion.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it's ridiculous enough that we barely see them together as is. 
> 
> Him not knowing about this would only be a little above that in my opinion.


But we all know what the real solution should be:

THE ADVENTURES OF STEPH AND DAMIAN, BOUNCY PALACE BROS!

----------


## Caivu

Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Steph's:

9f734e4b-c2e2-48a0-848c-8f6fa7029007.jpg

----------


## WonderNight

> Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Steph's:
> 
> Attachment 50092


yeah I just prefer her new 52 mark way more.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Steph's:
> 
> Attachment 50092


Cute! Love the comment about Steph's big hair as Robin - it's completely ridiculous, since Steph's never had hair that big, even in the early 90s, but the effect of a blaze of sunlight around her head is so amazing I love it anyway.

----------


## Assam

Alright, so we just got confirmation that the Steph and Anarky story is going to only be 2 issues. After that, we'll be getting a Tim arc!...and Steph isn't on the cover of the 'Tec issue starting it. Bloody eh.

----------


## Frontier

I'm glad to see Tynion's doing a smaller arc, I think that might work out better for the story, unless it feels undercooked and anti-climactic  :EEK!: .

----------


## Caivu

> Alright, so we just got confirmation that the Steph and Anarky story is going to only be 2 issues. After that, we'll be getting a Tim arc!...and Steph isn't on the cover of the 'Tec issue starting it. Bloody eh.


I think it's likely she'll return during that arc, though.

----------


## Assam

> I think it's likely she'll return during that arc, though.


I just really hope its a matter of her thinking things through after the mini-arc, and not seeing Tim again or hearing a speech from him that gets her back on track. That would _really_ piss me off.

----------


## millernumber1

> Alright, so we just got confirmation that the Steph and Anarky story is going to only be 2 issues. After that, we'll be getting a Tim arc!...and Steph isn't on the cover of the 'Tec issue starting it. Bloody eh.


I think, unless the whole team gets brought in really early, a two issue arc for Steph and Anarky should be pretty well paced. And I hope Carmen Carnero does both issues - I really loved her art for 957 and 945. I am sad about Steph not being on the cover, since, like you, I think Steph should reconcile on her own terms, not just be swept away by Tim's return.

That being said: I expect Tim and Steph to do some serious smooching. A la:

Pic019.jpg

but in reverse.




> I'm glad to see Tynion's doing a smaller arc, I think that might work out better for the story, unless it feels undercooked and anti-climactic .


I hope so too. Considering I really thought the structuring of 957 was good, I think this will work out well - though hopefully JT4 will have time to do it himself this time.




> I think it's likely she'll return during that arc, though.


If she doesn't, JT4 and I will have WORDS.  :Wink: 




> I just really hope its a matter of her thinking things through after the mini-arc, and not seeing Tim again or hearing a speech from him that gets her back on track. That would _really_ piss me off.


Yup. Pretty much this. I feel strongly that Steph has been given so much agency in Tynion's arc, that I do not want to see that taken away, even by Tim, who I love and am thrilled to see back.

----------


## adrikito

> Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Steph's:
> 
> Attachment 50092


Thanks...

Before 2018 Steph will be Happy again... Tim will have returned.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks...
> 
> Before 2018 Steph will be Happy again... Tim will have returned.


As long as Steph is on panel, I'm happy. (I should probably qualify that with "not being tortured to death" or something, but eh.  :Smile:  )

----------


## Frontier

> I think, unless the whole team gets brought in really early, a two issue arc for Steph and Anarky should be pretty well paced. And I hope Carmen Carnero does both issues - I really loved her art for 957 and 945. I am sad about Steph not being on the cover, since, like you, I think Steph should reconcile on her own terms, not just be swept away by Tim's return.
> 
> That being said: I expect Tim and Steph to do some serious smooching. A la:
> 
> Pic019.jpg
> 
> but in reverse.


I would be very happy with some smooching the moment she sees Tim again  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Assam

Clearly, you Tim/Steph shippers are very excited. 

I'll try to be happy for you.

----------


## millernumber1

> I would be very happy with some smooching the moment she sees Tim again .


I hope the fanboy in Tynion insists that Barrows or whoever's doing the art does an homage!




> Clearly, you Tim/Steph shippers are very excited. 
> 
> I'll try to be happy for you.


I feel you, friend. Though I am a diehard Tim/Steph shipper, I appreciate that Steph and Tim are more than just that relationship, and their relationships with other characters are major draws for other Steph fans. I will say this: if Steph returning doesn't have some kind of reconciliation with Cass particularly out of all the team mates, I will be profoundly disappointed.

----------


## Caivu

Another hint:

Screenshot_20170614-181317.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Another hint:
> 
> Screenshot_20170614-181317.jpg


Heading into the end of the year? Ooooh! That indicates that Steph isn't just returning because Tim's back!

----------


## Frontier

> Another hint:
> 
> Screenshot_20170614-181317.jpg


Glad to see there are big plans for Steph coming up  :Smile: .

Though I'm also curious how this will relate to Tim's storyline...

----------


## millernumber1

> Glad to see there are big plans for Steph coming up .
> 
> Though I'm also curious how this will relate to Tim's storyline...


Well, Tynion said at the start of the Victim Syndicate that it was only the start of Steph's large arc. So I've been expecting something like this.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Well, Tynion said at the start of the Victim Syndicate that it was only the start of Steph's large arc. So I've been expecting something like this.


Yeah, I'm wondering when that's going to be followed up on. We still don't know who the First Victim is...

----------


## Assam

> Well, Tynion said at the start of the Victim Syndicate that it was only the start of Steph's large arc. So I've been expecting something like this.


It is nice at the very least that even after their arcs, Tynion made it clear that there was still more big stuff planned for the characters, be it Kate going on to get a solo, Cass being set up for a confrontation with Ra's and a major role in Basil's eventual arc, or Steph doing her thing from last issue and going into the Anarky two partner and beyond. And with all of that in mind, there are probably plans for JPV and Luke beyond the current arc as well; the latter having really been growing on me (And not just because I find him super smexy  :Wink:  )

Almost makes me not positively livid that Duke is going to be getting a solo before most of the team...

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, I'm wondering when that's going to be followed up on. We still don't know who the First Victim is...


I actually don't think it's important. There's no reveal that would be satisfying unless it was someone we know, and that's not really possible with this mystery, and I think it's more meaningful if they just represent the everyday Gotham citizen.

----------


## Frontier

> I actually don't think it's important. There's no reveal that would be satisfying unless it was someone we know, and that's not really possible with this mystery, and I think it's more meaningful if they just represent the everyday Gotham citizen.


But I think the fact that they call themselves "The First Victim" and what that would mean is something that bears revealing. 

Having the identity be symbolic may have been part of what Tynion had in mind when creating the character but I think he eventually intends to reveal who it really is.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I'm wondering when that's going to be followed up on. We still don't know who the First Victim is...


I'm mostly with Assam - I don't find the First Victim's true identity that important, since I think they're actually lying. But if they come back, it could be an interesting plot point to explore further. I think Steph's plotline has more to do with where she fits in the Batfamily, and what her own philosophy is - what world, as the comic asks, that she wants to live in.




> It is nice at the very least that even after their arcs, Tynion made it clear that there was still more big stuff planned for the characters, be it Kate going on to get a solo, Cass being set up for a confrontation with Ra's and a major role in Basil's eventual arc, or Steph doing her thing from last issue and going into the Anarky two partner and beyond. And with all of that in mind, there are probably plans for JPV and Luke beyond the current arc as well; the latter having really been growing on me (And not just because I find him super smexy  )
> 
> Almost makes me not positively livid that Duke is going to be getting a solo before most of the team...


If Harper gets a major role before Steph returns to her proper place in the Batfamily, I'm going to be Most Displeased. And I don't even hate Harper.




> I actually don't think it's important. There's no reveal that would be satisfying unless it was someone we know, and that's not really possible with this mystery, and I think it's more meaningful if they just represent the everyday Gotham citizen.


Yeah - I tend to agree. Also, as I said above, I think they're lying.

----------


## Assam

> If Harper gets a major role before Steph returns to her proper place in the Batfamily, I'm going to be Most Displeased. And I don't even hate Harper.


Agreed. Likewise, once Steph returns to her proper place as Cass's best friend, I'll have zero problem with Harper being close with Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> Agreed. Likewise, once Steph returns to her proper place as Cass's best friend, I'll have zero problem with Harper being close with Cass.


I am fine with the three being a trio of best friends - but Steph being the odd girl out makes me really mad.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Actually, it's more believable than the original scene.....  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

Seen that before. It's...realistic. (Seriously, if they'd just given Steph a damn memorial, they could have just had it that Bruce didn't know so he didn't continue to come off as a dick.)

----------


## millernumber1

Dixon did the best he could given the idiocy that drove the company, and drove him out (until now! Hooray!)

----------


## Assam

Steph Fun Fact: While she's the only Robin to never have served with the Teen Titans officially, she almost did. During the Jurgens run on TT, there was a poll for what teen hero should join. Tim won, but because he was banned from appearing by the Bateditors,  CM3 joined up. But the runner-up behind CM3? STEPH! (and Damage) 

Now I liked what they did with CM3 in the book, but Steph palling around with the most underrated group of Teen Titans would have been great.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph Fun Fact: While she's the only Robin to never have served with the Teen Titans officially, she almost did. During the Jurgens run on TT, there was a poll for what teen hero should join. Tim won, but because he was banned from appearing by the Bateditors,  CM3 joined up. But the runner-up behind CM3? STEPH! (and Damage) 
> 
> Now I liked what they did with CM3 in the book, but Steph palling around with the most underrated group of Teen Titans would have been great.


Oooh! When was that? (Also, who was CM3, and why couldn't Tim hang with the Titans - I thought he was really big on their teams?)

----------


## Assam

> Oooh! When was that? (Also, who was CM3, and why couldn't Tim hang with the Titans - I thought he was really big on their teams?)


It was the 1996 Teen Titans. With Risk, Joto, Argent, Prysm, and and a de-aged Ray Palmer being the starting line-up. I love these kids, and I will never forgive Geoff Johns for what he did to Risk. 

CM3 is Captain Marvel Jr. 

And at the time, they didn't want Tim joining any teams. I think they already were planning out Young justice. 

The worst part is that we actually did get a taste. Tim and Steph popped up a few times as guest stars in the book, and there was even a one-shot called "Robin/Argent DoubleShot" where we got to see Argent team up with Tim and Steph, the three all having some really fun interactions. There's even a panel that basically sums up the first few years of Tim and Steph's relationship in just a few humorous words. Highly recommend it.

----------


## millernumber1

> It was the 1996 Teen Titans. With Risk, Joto, Argent, Prysm, and and a de-aged Ray Palmer being the starting line-up. I love these kids, and I will never forgive Geoff Johns for what he did to Risk. 
> 
> CM3 is Captain Marvel Jr. 
> 
> And at the time, they didn't want Tim joining any teams. I think they already were planning out Young justice. 
> 
> The worst part is that we actually did get a taste. Tim and Steph popped up a few times as guest stars in the book, and there was even a one-shot called "Robin/Argent DoubleShot" where we got to see Argent team up with Tim and Steph, the three all having some really fun interactions. There's even a panel that basically sums up the first few years of Tim and Steph's relationship in just a few humorous words. Highly recommend it.


Ah! I have, of course, read the Robin/Argent Double Shot (at least, the parts with Steph). But I'm still not super up on my 90s Batman stuff that isn't Steph or a massive crossover that's collected like Knightfall. Another project!

----------


## millernumber1

Today, according to my research, is the 25th anniversary of Steph's first appearance in Detective Comics #647.

Detective_Comics_-647_pg00.jpg

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...e_Comics_(647)

Join with me in celebrating the quarter century birthday of the best heroine ever!

----------


## Assam

25 years of proving herself to those who doubted her. 25 years of hardship and development. 25 years of friendship, love and sass.  Significantly *less* than 25 years of being the most well known waffle fan in fiction. 25 years of showing both Batman and DC Editorial where they can shove it. 25 years of greatness. 

"Best" heroine ever is debatable (As far as just DC goes she's #2 for me), but that's just semantics. HAPPY 25th ANNIVERSARY STEPH!!! 

I'll be back in the morning to post scans of my favorite Steph moments, and I hope I won't be alone in doing so.

takara teph.jpg

----------


## RedBird

Oh Wow, 25 years!

tumblr_n73azxUOh01r61k6wo2_1280.jpg
X

tumblr_mr8fzplagL1qcexrpo1_1280.jpg
X


tumblr_n5j1vedzGR1sh2qdzo1_1280.jpg
X

----------


## Caivu

June certainly seems to be the month for great Gothamites!

----------


## Assam

> June certainly seems to be the month for great Gothamites!


Basil Karlo also originally first appeared in June. 

Actually, the Summer in general is just a great time for new Bats to pop up. Cass debuted in July and Tim in August.

----------


## Chickfighter

> Today, according to my research, is the 25th anniversary of Steph's first appearance in Detective Comics #647.
> 
> Detective_Comics_-647_pg00.jpg
> 
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...e_Comics_(647)
> 
> Join with me in celebrating the quarter century birthday of the best heroine ever!


The third quote in your signature says it all. Superhero comics miss the point if there's no hope in them. 
Thanks to Steph for 25 years of bringing back the hope!

----------


## millernumber1

> 25 years of proving herself to those who doubted her. 25 years of hardship and development. 25 years of friendship, love and sass.  Significantly *less* than 25 years of being the most well known waffle fan in fiction. 25 years of showing both Batman and DC Editorial where they can shove it. 25 years of greatness. 
> 
> "Best" heroine ever is debatable (As far as just DC goes she's #2 for me), but that's just semantics. HAPPY 25th ANNIVERSARY STEPH!!! 
> 
> I'll be back in the morning to post scans of my favorite Steph moments, and I hope I won't be alone in doing so.
> 
> takara teph.jpg


I adore Marcio Takara's Steph triptych, and really wish we had more of him drawing Steph now. He did get an appearance of her in Nightwing!

As for "best" - this is the Steph appreciation thread! Much love to all other great characters, though.




> Oh Wow, 25 years!
> 
> tumblr_mr8fzplagL1qcexrpo1_1280.jpg
> X


Hooray!




> June certainly seems to be the month for great Gothamites!


It is indeed!




> The third quote in your signature says it all. Superhero comics miss the point if there's no hope in them. 
> Thanks to Steph for 25 years of bringing back the hope!


Steph's hope is so needed, all the time.

----------


## adrikito

Congratulations stephanie brown. Thanks for these 25 years.  :Cool:

----------


## Katana500

> Congratulations stephanie brown. Thanks for these 25 years.


Wow! I never knew she was so old!

----------


## millernumber1

> Wow! I never knew she was so old!


Yes! Steph may only have been Batgirl for 2 years, but she has been around for half of Babs's lifetime! A venerable and seasoned hero!

----------


## Frontier

Happy 25 years Steph  :Smile: . 

Hopefully we can celebrate *her* 50th next  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Happy 25 years Steph . 
> 
> Hopefully we can celebrate *her* 50th next .


In another 25 years?

----------


## FlyingHero

> Happy 25 years Steph . 
> 
> Hopefully we can celebrate *her* 50th next .


Judging by new52, let's hope she still exists by then lol.

----------


## Frontier

> In another 25 years?


Here's hoping  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Judging by new52, let's hope she still exists by then lol.


Well, she's come back from the dead/non-existence TWICE, which is more than most. So I think we're good!




> Here's hoping .


Very much so. There's room in our line of posting for hope, too.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Well, she's come back from the dead/non-existence TWICE, which is more than most. So I think we're good!


You know, in a sick way, down the line, probably 5-10 years (Assuming there isn't a shake-up in editorial, which would AMAZING), I'm almost looking forward to seeing what DC's next failed attempt to get rid of Cass and Steph will be. They've tried killing, they've tried disgracing/victim blaming, they've tried turning them evil, they've tried not using  or mentioning them while flat out mocking the fanbases both IRL and in comics, they've tried flat out erasing them from existence...AND THEY KEEP COMING BACK. 

Like in the Blue Lantern Oath, HOPE really does burn bright in this area. I have no idea what DC will try next, or even could try next with all the options they've already used, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that while some of the more recent additions to the Family may be lost to time, Steph and Cass will ALWAYS come back.

----------


## millernumber1

I think there's bound to be a shakeup in 5-10 years, if only because of retirements.

I hope for better thing. Maybe Tynion will become EIC, and hire all of us.  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

> I think there's bound to be a shakeup in 5-10 years, if only because of retirements.
> 
> I hope for better thing. *Maybe Tynion will become EIC*, and hire all of us.


Now let's not jump too far  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Now let's not jump too far .


Today is a day of hoping too hard and wishing too far and jumping too high!

Besides, if Tynion is EIC, people won't complain about his writing anymore.  :Wink:

----------


## Red obin

Just saw CBR article on how Silverstone batgirl was ridiculed and called fat girl. Interesting that both the blonde batgirls share this nickname...

----------


## millernumber1

Silverstone Batgirl was nowhere near the worst thing about that movie. But I would bet you a lot of money that BQM and Sterling Gates knew about that, and it's part of why he chose to have Damian call Steph Fatgirl.

----------


## Assam

Extortion Steph.jpg

While not their first meeting, this was truly the birth of the most beautiful (And far too often mishandled) friendship in all of comicdom. And it's all thanks to extortion! #ExtortionSteph.

----------


## millernumber1

Steph has always known how to push people's buttons, even before she became a master of Button Fu.  :Wink:

----------


## Caivu

This was just tweeted by Christopher Sebela:

IMG_20170623_143814.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> This was just tweeted by Christopher Sebela:
> 
> IMG_20170623_143814.jpg


Good to see Steph smiling again. I'm betting rooftop lunch with Lonnie.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> This was just tweeted by Christopher Sebela:
> 
> IMG_20170623_143814.jpg


It's nice to see Steph looking like herself again  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

It's funny. I first really noticed Steph in War Games trade paperbacks in the bookstore while I was in college, 2005ish. I liked her then, but she was super dead at that point, so I didn't really register that much of her until she came back in 2008. I noticed her popping up at that point, but it wasn't until she was Batgirl that I really fell in love with her - so my Steph is mostly a sweet, spunky, funny, significantly more mature Steph.

However, Dixon's first five or so years of Steph were much more rough around the edges - full of justifiable rage against her father, and it often spilled out onto anyone around - Tim, Batman, criminals (mostly criminals, so we might not notice it as much). I think, contrary to many folk to say that n52/Rebirth Steph has nothing to do with old Steph, that this is Steph of the first few years of Robin. She's got the wit and spunk and enthusiasm - but she's also got the anger and abandonment issues, and no support network yet, especially with Tim gone.

All that being said in defense of Rebirth Steph's current mopey state of mind, I do look forward to her taking an uptick in smiles soon!

----------


## Assam

BASIC BEST FRIEND RULES: 

Best Friend Rule #1: You can barf in front of each other. 

cass barfs.jpg

Best Friend Rule #2: They always believe you, even if you don't believe in yourself...and even if they're just a hallucination. 

BEST FRIENDS.jpg

Best Friend Rule #3: While playing a game, you forgive your friend when they act overly cocky. 

roof tag.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> BASIC BEST FRIEND RULES: 
> 
> Best Friend Rule #1: You can barf in front of each other. 
> 
> cass barfs.jpg
> 
> Best Friend Rule #2: They always believe you, even if you don't believe in yourself...and even if they're just a hallucination. 
> 
> BEST FRIENDS.jpg
> ...


Those are some great rules to follow :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Haha, excellent rules!  Don't forget this one:

Rejoice with your friend when they rejoice!
009-Batgirl 053 Rembrandt-DCP.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Haha, excellent rules!  Don't forget this one:
> 
> Rejoice with your friend when they rejoice!
> Attachment 50909


Very good!

I was actually going to use that page as well with something along those lines, but this forum has a three attachment limit to posts.

----------


## millernumber1

> Very good!
> 
> I was actually going to use that page as well with something along those lines, but this forum has a three attachment limit to posts.


Yeah - the three picture rule is a stymie to my exuberance sometimes.

But Cass's face in that last panel is so glorious - her smile through the cowl - so sweet.

----------


## Assam

> But Cass's face in that last panel is so glorious - her smile through the cowl - so sweet.


The artists for Cass's book, less so the final ones, were always able to make her mask super expressive. She could be damn intimidating when she needed to...but she could also be warm, sad, sympathetic, smug and every other emotion under the sun.

----------


## millernumber1

> The artists for Cass's book, less so the final ones, were always able to make her mask super expressive. She could be damn intimidating when she needed to...but she could also be warm, sad, sympathetic, smug and every other emotion under the sun.


And Steph always drew out the best ones!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> And Steph always drew out the best ones!


No disagreement here.

----------


## RedBird

Almost forgot this Gem, by none other than *Dustin Nguyen*



Lil Gotham was amazing, truly quality content!

----------


## Invisible Kid

Anyone remember those valentines issues with Klarion the Witch Boy during Steph's Batgirl run? They were the cutest.

----------


## millernumber1

I do remember that issue. I still wish it had been Tim she kissed, but it was a good one-shot. With gorgeous art.

----------


## Assam

I actually have a friend whose first exposure to Steph was that issue; she'd only picked it up because Klarion was in it, and he's her favorite DC character. She didn't stick with the book afterwords, but she does still consider Steph one of her favorite Bats based on that one issue.

----------


## millernumber1

Just goes to show that the strangest things can make you love a character. (I myself love Steph because of the first issue of War Games...  :Smile:  )

----------


## Chickfighter

> Just goes to show that the strangest things can make you love a character. (I myself love Steph because of the first issue of War Games...  )


That's interesting. I recall my denial at that time too, for the longest time holding on to hope even through some of the horrible parts that Steph would be the star of that series and prove her worth to Batman. Alas, not what the powers that be had in mind. I was so disappointed.

----------


## millernumber1

Yes - it's so frustrating how the whole story seems to be setup to have Steph redeem herself from her failures and save the day, but instead, it keeps promising us a way out, then shooting us in the shoulder for no good reason.

I really think Devin Grayson and Dylan Horrocks were trying their hardest to deny editorial's reality.

----------


## adrikito

> Almost forgot this Gem, by none other than *Dustin Nguyen*
> 
> 
> 
> Lil Gotham was amazing, truly quality content!


I see this image in Tumblr... I like this..

WHO IS THE CHARACTER BETWEEN BATWOMAN AND ALFRED?  :Confused:  

And under huntress? that blonde woman(like black canary) of birds of prey?

----------


## millernumber1

> I see this image in Tumblr... I like this..
> 
> WHO IS THE CHARACTER BETWEEN BATWOMAN AND ALFRED?


That's Julia Pennyworth, Alfred's daughter. She was created a long time ago, but came back at the same time as Steph in Batman Eternal. She's a former special forces soldier for the British government, and joined Batman during Cluemaster's campaign against Batman. She then helped Batman in the fight against Joker during Endgame, and worked for Powers industry in the Batman project to support Jim Gordon. Recently, she's been hanging out with Batwoman in her own title, as Batman's agent/Batwoman's Alfred.

I wish Steph and Julia could meet, since they're both pretty awesome.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> That's Julia Pennyworth, Alfred's daughter. She was created a long time ago, but came back at the same time as Steph in Batman Eternal. She's a former special forces soldier for the British government, and joined Batman during Cluemaster's campaign against Batman. She then helped Batman in the fight against Joker during Endgame, and worked for Powers industry in the Batman project to support Jim Gordon. Recently, she's been hanging out with Batwoman in her own title, as Batman's agent/Batwoman's Alfred.
> 
> I wish Steph and Julia could meet, since they're both pretty awesome.


Upss, thanks, I remember her now..

----------


## millernumber1

> Upss, thanks, I remember her now..


Also, the woman under Huntress is Lady Blackhawk, Zinda Blake, who is coming back to Rebirth with the Dark Days/Dark Knights/Metal event thingy. Pretty much the only reason I care about Metal.  :Smile:   She was a major character in Gail Simone's first run of Birds of Prey.

----------


## Assam

So Tynion has repeatedly teased on Twitter that in addition to all the books he's currently working on that we know about, he's also working on one more secret indie book, and one more secret DC book. 

Its probably not, but what if the reason Steph isn't returning to the 'Tec team after the Anarky arc is because she's getting a solo? I don't know how I'd feel about that (Pretty good I guess, but I'd want regular team-ups), but the fanbase reaction would be VERY interesting to see. It isn't just here. Everywhere I go, Steph fans and Steph haters alike have hated what's been going on with her.

----------


## millernumber1

Oh, man, don't break my heart like that! I would be so thrilled for a Steph or Tim/Steph or Tim/Steph/Cass spin-off book from Tec.

But it's almost certainly something from Metal. Ugh ugh ugh.

I personally also hold out hope that Dixon, now that he's got his foot back in the door with Bane, might want to do a mini about our favorite purple-clad girl?  :Smile:

----------


## K. Jones

> So Tynion has repeatedly teased on Twitter that in addition to all the books he's currently working on that we know about, he's also working on one more secret indie book, and one more secret DC book. 
> 
> Its probably not, but what if the reason Steph isn't returning to the 'Tec team after the Anarky arc is because she's getting a solo? I don't know how I'd feel about that (Pretty good I guess, but I'd want regular team-ups), but the fanbase reaction would be VERY interesting to see. It isn't just here. Everywhere I go, Steph fans and Steph haters alike have hated what's been going on with her.


If it's a Steph book, or a Steph/Cass book, I'll be enthused to the extreme, though I say that Tynion has been dropping enough diverse, interesting stuff that he could almost pop up anywhere, doing anything in the DCU and it could be interesting - a new Azrael book perhaps. Or even something spinning out of Metal, or not spinning out of anything, you know?

But beyond that ... it's a Steph or Steph/Cass book with like ... Dustin Nguyen or Lee Garbett art? I'll swoon.

He's got that Immortal Men title coming up with Jim Lee and whoever inevitably replaces Lee by issue # 2, right? But whence, Duke Thomas? But yeah ... other than that I'm curious where he could turn up and in what way. I could live with him bringing back Young Justice, I think. Actually come to think of it Tynion has been writing some of my favorite jams of the last year and I didn't even realize it was all him, even though I knew he was the writer - Batman/Ninja Turtles was like my favorite thing ever, and Batman/Shadow has been solid as heck.

----------


## Assam

> Oh, man, don't break my heart like that! I would be so thrilled for a Steph or Tim/Steph or Tim/Steph/Cass spin-off book from Tec.
> 
> But it's almost certainly something from Metal. Ugh ugh ugh.
> 
> I personally also hold out hope that Dixon, now that he's got his foot back in the door with Bane, might want to do a mini about our favorite purple-clad girl?


I dont think its connected to Metal. Tynion has already been announced on one of the Dark Matter books. I guess it could be a new Outsiders book, in which case,"ugh", but I dunno.

----------


## SixSpeedSamurai

I'd love a Tim/Steph book, hopefully with Doomsday Clock they are going to restore their history.

----------


## millernumber1

Hmmm. I don't know what to think about an Outsiders book. Will it have Cass in it? I liked those issues.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> If it's a Steph book, or a Steph/Cass book, I'll be enthused to the extreme, though I say that Tynion has been dropping enough diverse, interesting stuff that he could almost pop up anywhere, doing anything in the DCU and it could be interesting - a new Azrael book perhaps. Or even something spinning out of Metal, or not spinning out of anything, you know?


It goes without saying that I'd prefer a Cass/Steph book over just a Steph book, but I'd still happily read the latter. Since you mentioned it, I don't think it'd last long, but I'd read the Hell out of a new JPV Azrael book. 




> Hmmm. I don't know what to think about an Outsiders book. Will it have Cass in it? I liked those issues.


Almost certainly not.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> It goes without saying that I'd prefer a Cass/Steph book over just a Steph book, but I'd still happily read the latter. Since you mentioned it, I don't think it'd last long, but I'd read the Hell out of a new JPV Azrael book. 
> 
> Almost certainly not.


Much as I'm enjoying Jean-Paul in Tec, I would only read his solo book if it were someone like Tynion, who I trust to give me a good story on a character I'm uncertain about.

Steph, on the other hand - I'd read her if Beechen wrote her.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Much as I'm enjoying Jean-Paul in Tec, I would only read his solo book if it were someone like Tynion, who I trust to give me a good story on a character I'm uncertain about.


Fair enough. I'm a big fan of the guy though so I'd obviously be more into it. 




> Steph, on the other hand - I'd read her if Beechen wrote her.


Enjoy watching her become the world's biggest pessimist, saying that purple is her least favorite color and waffles her least favorite food, and of course, an arc where she finds her baby having grown up into a toddler and tries to drown it.  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

I mean, I'd probably give a new Azrael title a try, but I'd be pretty bummed that Steph and Cass didn't get a solo/duo/trio title first.  But because Jean-Paul never really interacted with Steph, I don't have the connection a Cass fan would.  :Smile: 

I'd be more worried that her dad would capture and drug her into being Pointer, the sidekick to Cluemaster.  :Wink:   :Frown:  :?

----------


## Assam

> I mean, I'd probably give a new Azrael title a try, but I'd be pretty bummed that Steph and Cass didn't get a solo/duo/trio title first.  But because Jean-Paul never really interacted with Steph, I don't have the connection a Cass fan would.


Yeah, much as I like him, giving JPV a solo before any combination of Tim, Steph and Cass really wouldn't make any sense. I should mention though that I like JPV for more reasons than just his friendship with Cass. A lot of his solo book was really good stuff. 




> I'd be more worried that her dad would capture and drug her into being Pointer, the sidekick to Cluemaster.   :?


Cluemaster: "Slade! Cain! I drugged my daughter too! Can I be one of the cool kids now?"  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously though, keep Beechen away from _everything._

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, much as I like him, giving JPV a solo before any combination of Tim, Steph and Cass really wouldn't make any sense. I should mention though that I like JPV for more reasons than just his friendship with Cass. A lot of his solo book was really good stuff. 
> 
> Cluemaster: "Slade! Cain! I drugged my daughter too! Can I be one of the cool kids now?" 
> 
> Seriously though, keep Beechen away from _everything._


Haha. Yup. And then he'd get his throat slit again. Meanwhile, Steph, Ravager, and Cass would help each other break free of the drugs, and beat their dads up. Again.  :Smile: 

Didn't mean to imply you just like Jean-Paul for Cass - just that Cass was an entry point to him that I didn't have.

----------


## Invisible Kid

> So Tynion has repeatedly teased on Twitter that in addition to all the books he's currently working on that we know about, he's also working on one more secret indie book, and one more secret DC book. 
> 
> Its probably not, but what if the reason Steph isn't returning to the 'Tec team after the Anarky arc is because she's getting a solo? I don't know how I'd feel about that (Pretty good I guess, but I'd want regular team-ups), but the fanbase reaction would be VERY interesting to see. It isn't just here. Everywhere I go, Steph fans and Steph haters alike have hated what's been going on with her.


Okay this would be awesome and amazing and everything I ever hoped for. Probably just jinxed it. I think Steph needs her own series to redefine herself, figure out whatever's going on with Tim (because, you know, all that Batgirl character growth has been utterly erased). Honestly, if DC can do this correctly they'd be winning hugely. However if they fail, I hate to say this, but it could be the end of Steph in general.

----------


## Assam

> Okay this would be awesome and amazing and everything I ever hoped for. Probably just jinxed it. I think Steph needs her own series to redefine herself, figure out whatever's going on with Tim (because, you know, all that Batgirl character growth has been utterly erased). Honestly, if DC can do this correctly they'd be winning hugely. *However if they fail, I hate to say this, but it could be the end of Steph in general.*


Not a chance. With everything Cass and Steph have gone through and come back from from a creative stand point, there's nothing that could get rid of them.

----------


## Invisible Kid

> Not a chance. With everything Cass and Steph have gone through and come back from from a creative stand point, there's nothing that could get rid of them.


I mean yeah, from a creative standpoint, they can't just do away with her. But I do believe it possible that DC could screw up a solo run enough that they give up on character development, and instead just use her as a fill in when necessary.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not a chance. With everything Cass and Steph have gone through and come back from from a creative stand point, there's nothing that could get rid of them.





> I mean yeah, from a creative standpoint, they can't just do away with her. But I do believe it possible that DC could screw up a solo run enough that they give up on character development, and instead just use her as a fill in when necessary.


I agree with Assam. Steph will always find her defenders - first it was Dixon, then it was Bryan Q. Miller, now it's Tynion. Another will come.

Because there's room in our line of fandom for hope, too.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

THEORY: The next big DC event after Rebirth is going to be a Civil War-esque conflict. The cause behind this will be a split among the heroes over whether pancakes or waffles are superior. The latter side would of course be led by Steph, while the pancake side would be lead by new Green Lantern/ pancake devourer Jessica Cruz. Then a group of villains would show up championing french toast.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## millernumber1

> THEORY: The next big DC event after Rebirth is going to be a Civil War-esque conflict. The cause behind this will be a split among the heroes over whether pancakes or waffles are superior. The latter side would of course be led by Steph, while the pancake side would be lead by new Green Lantern/ pancake devourer Jessica Cruz. Then a group of villains would show up championing french toast.


This is an absurd concept. Because clearly, Jess and Steph would think the other is awesome, and would never fight.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> This is an absurd concept. Because clearly, Jess and Steph would think the other is awesome, and would never fight.


Yeah, I guess.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The two would probably get along. I could see something like this happening: 

The two are talking, and Jessica gets really excited because Steph off-handedly mentions Pokemon, causing Jess to start rambling about it. 

Steph: *Sigh* "You sound like my boyfriend."

----------


## millernumber1

Reminds me of some fun fanarts!

http://ameliartist.tumblr.com/post/1...w-every-day-82
2.jpg

http://missinkart.tumblr.com/post/14...ds-would-start3.jpg

http://ameliartist.tumblr.com/post/1...me-laugh-and-i
(Full comic at link)1.jpg



Full disclosure - I have never played a single Pokemon in my entire life. I have no idea what is going on in these pictures. But I know that they are about Steph and Pokemon, so I posted them.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Steph's evil plan : Gotta Catch 'Em All 



When Tim starts to play....

----------


## millernumber1

I love that!  The last shot reminds me of one of my favorite Steph themes: Wespecting Female Wobins!

http://skittledeedoo.tumblr.com/post...-female-wobins
1.jpg

http://skittledeedoo.tumblr.com/post...st-lady-wobins
2.jpg

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1147...A1%91-wow-very
3.jpg

(That last one isn't by me - the original post doesn't exist anymore, so I had to mirror it to my blog collection. It's such a wonderful image from the end of War Games with the retcon that she wasn't dead.)

----------


## adrikito

> Also, the woman under Huntress is Lady Blackhawk, Zinda Blake, who is coming back to Rebirth with the Dark Days/Dark Knights/Metal event thingy. Pretty much the only reason I care about Metal.   She was a major character in Gail Simone's first run of Birds of Prey.


I remember see her in images of birds of prey.. but I forgot her name..

I support the Cass/Steph comic... the two previous batgirls in the same book.




> Full disclosure - I have never played a single Pokemon in my entire life. I have no idea what is going on in these pictures. But I know that they are about Steph and Pokemon, so I posted them.


I forgot your age but... there are FREE HACK ROMS in internet..





> 


Seems that she loves the dark type pokemon.... Maybe Espeon was a better Spoiler..

----------


## millernumber1

> I forgot your age but... there are FREE HACK ROMS in internet..


I am an ancient 30 year old. My problem with playing Pokemon is not paying for it (I have a job! Woohoo!), but rather that I didn't grow up playing it, so I have not connection to it, and it doesn't really appeal to me now.

But I do love seeing Steph playing it.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I am an ancient 30 year old. My problem with playing Pokemon is not paying for it (I have a job! Woohoo!), but rather that I didn't grow up playing it, so I have not connection to it, and it doesn't really appeal to me now.
> 
> But I do love seeing Steph playing it.


Shame you can't connect with it. Me? I'm an absolute Pokemaniac, loving the franchise in pretty much every medium its a part of (The video games obviously being the best part.) Steph's first pokemon on her trainer card there, Umbreon, is actually my favorite, and I may or may not own a hoodie themed around it. 

Don't actually think Steph would be that into Dark types (Out of the BatFam I think that'd be Cass's preferred type). If I had to guess what Steph's favorite type would be...POISON! Took me a minute to think about it but 1)They're the type most commonly purple, and 2)Like Steph, they're best at fighting through unconventional means.

----------


## millernumber1

Haha, sorry to disappoint. But one half of the world cannot understand the pleasures of the other  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

So one of my favorite Tumblr users finally got around to reading Lazarus Contract, and funnily enough, their reaction is pretty much what mine was (Although I'd already turned against Damian prior to the crossover): 

"Stephanie Brown: Accidentally causes problems because Bruce didn’t trust her. 

Bruce: Fires her.

Damian: Literally ruins the life of the Flash, one of the most prolific heroes ever. 

Bruce: Doesn’t even acknowledge it, probably.

I tried to like him, I really did. But this pretty much seals it. I f**king hate this kid."

----------


## millernumber1

> So one of my favorite Tumblr users finally got around to reading Lazarus Contract, and funnily enough, their reaction is pretty much what mine was (Although I'd already turned against Damian prior to the crossover): 
> 
> "Stephanie Brown: Accidentally causes problems because Bruce didn’t trust her. 
> 
> Bruce: Fires her.
> 
> Damian: Literally ruins the life of the Flash, one of the most prolific heroes ever. 
> 
> Bruce: Doesn’t even acknowledge it, probably.
> ...


See, I don't like Lazarus Contract, mostly because I hate crossovers and the Teen Titans in general, but I really disagree that Damian's actions are so bad. They're cold and harsh, yes, but he's acting to save the world, not out of selfishness, but because he wants to be a hero.  As for Bruce not acknowledging, that's mostly because Scott Snyder has screwed up that relationship by refusing to let Damian be in any of the central Bat stories for 6 years.

I'm all for calling out Bruce's injustice towards Steph, but I don't think this is necessarily a fair criticism. Totally a fair reason for not liking him, though. Did you read Robin, Son of Batman? The first six issues of that were really good.

----------


## Assam

> See, I don't like Lazarus Contract, mostly because I hate crossovers and the Teen Titans in general, but I really disagree that Damian's actions are so bad. They're cold and harsh, yes, but he's acting to save the world, not out of selfishness, but because he wants to be a hero.  As for Bruce not acknowledging, that's mostly because Scott Snyder has screwed up that relationship by refusing to let Damian be in any of the central Bat stories for 6 years.
> 
> I'm all for calling out Bruce's injustice towards Steph, but I don't think this is necessarily a fair criticism. Totally a fair reason for not liking him, though. Did you read Robin, Son of Batman? The first six issues of that were really good.


Yes, he was acting to save the world, but if you look at what he did, his plan didn't actually make any sense at all. And yeah, Bruce not acknowledging it is partially Snyder's fault, but its still an issue. Like I said, I'd already turned against Damian _before_ the crossover (All my negative feelings towards his conception and his role in the Batverse boiling up after trying to love him for so long) and this was really just another nail in the coffin, even if his actions were more than a little OOC here, because of the repercussions and the general attitude toward him. (I'm happy to see in TT that Gar and Kory know they need to take charge, but they're focused on the unjust firing of NuWally, mostly because here, they have no history with real Wally.) 

As for Robin: Son of Batman, I read the first couple issues and didn't care for them at all. And this was while he was tied with Tim as my favorite male Robin.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, he was acting to save the world, but if you look at what he did, his plan didn't actually make any sense at all. And yeah, Bruce not acknowledging it is partially Snyder's fault, but its still an issue. Like I said, I'd already turned against Damian _before_ the crossover (All my negative feelings towards his conception and his role in the Batverse boiling up after trying to love him for so long) and this was really just another nail in the coffin, even if his actions were more than a little OOC here, because of the repercussions and the general attitude toward him. (I'm happy to see in TT that Gar and Kory know they need to take charge, but they're focused on the unjust firing of NuWally, mostly because here, they have no history with real Wally.) 
> 
> As for Robin: Son of Batman, I read the first couple issues and didn't care for them at all. And this was while he was tied with Tim as my favorite male Robin.


Eh. I agree that it's an issue, but I don't view editorial or writer errors as the fault of the character (see also: not blaming Steph for War Games, not really blaming Bruce for firing her, because that was so OOC and clearly artificial on editorial's behalf). Otherwise, you get stuck with some pretty far-off interpretations of character motives that rip the character from anything I'm willing to be attached to.

I really love those first six issues of Robin, Son of Batman, because 1) it does one of the best jobs of having Damian work on redemption, which is a huge theme I love in general, and 2) Maya's relationship with Damian has elements of the Steph/Damian relationship that made me love Damian in the first place.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/dyfl/status/884931830532767744

If this isn't just a variant for lonely place of living, its probably the cover for one of the Steph issues. Hmmmmmmm

----------


## millernumber1

I would be surprised (but extremely happy). I feel like it's more about the October solicits, which will be about Tim, rather than Steph's two-shot.

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/dyfl/status/884931830532767744
> 
> If this isn't just a variant for lonely place of living, its probably the cover for one of the Steph issues. Hmmmmmmm


I hope see Steph in the cover and not ONLY Tim Drake again... Or both..  I need see Steph again.

----------


## millernumber1

I know it's a joke, but I love that JT4 responded to his editor talking about silly swimsuit issues with this: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...07616765812737

_Tim would be in white boy basic trunks with sunscreen showing, and Steph would be in a conservative purple two piece with big sunglasses._

I tend to agree. And they're so cute!

----------


## adrikito

> i know it's a joke, but i love that jt4 responded to his editor talking about silly swimsuit issues with this: https://twitter.com/jamesthefourth/s...07616765812737
> 
> _tim would be in white boy basic trunks with sunscreen showing, and steph would be in a conservative purple two piece with big sunglasses._
> 
> i tend to agree. And they're so cute!


good idea.

----------


## Assam

> I know it's a joke, but I love that JT4 responded to his editor talking about silly swimsuit issues with this: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...07616765812737
> 
> _Tim would be in white boy basic trunks with sunscreen showing, and Steph would be in a conservative purple two piece with big sunglasses._
> 
> I tend to agree. And they're so cute!


I retweeted this just because I kinda wanna see it happen.  :Big Grin: 

Conroy also sounds about right regarding Cass, Luke and JPV's choice of swimwear. 

Oh, and to answer Tynion, Luke would be the sexist and its not even a contest. That man is beautiful.

----------


## millernumber1

Ahaha. I love Luke, but Steph is always best in my eyes at all the contests.

Except "being Bruce's favorite."  :Smile:  Cass has that one locked down.

----------


## Assam

> I hope see Steph in the cover and not ONLY Tim Drake again... Or both..  I need see Steph again.


I just hope the cover isn't a romantic image of Tim and Steph or something. I CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

Awww. I feel bad, but I cannot lie - I jumped for joy when Tim and Steph kissed in the second issue of the current run of Tec.

----------


## Assam

> I jumped for joy when Tim and Steph kissed in the second issue of the current run of Tec.


I know you did and that's fine. I don't HATE the ship of anything. I just maintain that Steph can do better. (And that's not limited to _just_ Cass)

----------


## millernumber1

She could - but the writers would actually need to write that as a ship. I'm a shipper of practicalities.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I know it's a joke, but I love that JT4 responded to his editor talking about silly swimsuit issues with this: https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...07616765812737
> 
> _Tim would be in white boy basic trunks with sunscreen showing, and Steph would be in a conservative purple two piece with big sunglasses._
> 
> I tend to agree. And they're so cute!


Now I really want to see an issue where the team hits the beach/pool  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Now I really want to see an issue where the team hits the beach/pool .


There was a really fun little webcomic that promised to do that, but it never got very far. http://batgirlincorporated.tumblr.co...the-end-if-you

Steph did have a very similar swimsuit to what Tynion described!

----------


## millernumber1

> There was a really fun little webcomic that promised to do that, but it never got very far. http://batgirlincorporated.tumblr.co...the-end-if-you
> 
> Steph did have a very similar swimsuit to what Tynion described!


Relevant images from the comic:

1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> There was a really fun little webcomic that promised to do that, but it never got very far. http://batgirlincorporated.tumblr.co...the-end-if-you
> 
> Steph did have a very similar swimsuit to what Tynion described!


4.jpg
5.jpg
Sadly, no more. But Steph and Cass sneaking is amazing!

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

Ahaha, those are so funny! There seem to be a lot of "boy Robin has to crossdress undercover" fics from several years ago.  :Smile:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Ahaha, those are so funny! There seem to be a lot of "boy Robin has to crossdress undercover" fics from several years ago.


Well, it's a Bat tradition  :Big Grin:  I love how Dick and Jason are always so confident in girls' clothes, but Tim freaks out every time. And Damian.... is just Damian.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

Are there actual comics featuring the cross dressing, other than Batgirl Year One, where Dick dresses as Batgirl?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Are there actual comics featuring the cross dressing, other than Batgirl Year One, where Dick dresses as Batgirl?


Tim dressed like a nurse in Batman 626. I don't know what's up with Jason and Damian.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim dressed like a nurse in Batman 626. I don't know what's up with Jason and Damian.


Oh, wow. I haven't read that one, but am looking at it now, and it's pretty hilarious. That was while Tim was still dating Steph (just before War Games), so such a missed opportunity to not have her see/know about and rib him.

----------


## Aahz

> Are there actual comics featuring the cross dressing, other than Batgirl Year One, where Dick dresses as Batgirl?


There is a news paper stripp where Dick had to dress as a girl and I think there was also one other silver or golden age comic where had did it.

Jason never did it, and I'm not sure about Damian but I also think he never did it on panel, but he I recall something about him saying that he could do it ...

----------


## millernumber1

Found this, which I think is the strip in question (from 1946):

c.jpg

The whole tale is pretty daffy.

Here's the Tim page previously referenced (Batman #626, by Judd Winick, art by Dustin Nguyen):

b.jpg

And, of course, Dick (Batgirl Year One #9):

d.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

And of course, we can't go without some Steph fanworks on the subject!

a.jpg

From http://gabzilla-z.tumblr.com/post/83...regret-nothing

Inspired this fic, "5 Times a Robin Was Supposed to Cross-dress for a Mission (and the One Who Wouldn't)": https://archiveofourown.org/works/5061088

And one featuring just Damian (warning: from a larger collection of fics focused on Steph/Damian shipping. I really like it, but it's definitely the focus of this story) "Bulletproof": http://archiveofourown.org/works/249113/chapters/385037

----------


## adrikito

> Relevant images from the comic:
> 
> Attachment 51543
> Attachment 51544
> Attachment 51545


I like this.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## millernumber1

> I like this.


Yeah, that tumblr had some great ideas. It never updated very quickly, though, and seems to be on pretty permanent shutdown now.  :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> Found this, which I think is the strip in question (from 1946):


I Actually meant this one. I didn't knew the other one.



And there was also a comic where dressed as a bride.

----------


## millernumber1

Wow, this was apparently a popular trope!

At least Steph got her fiberglass Robin outfit, even though she never got to be Stephen Brown, Robin in Disguise!  :Wink:

----------


## Aahz

Bruce did it also:




And here is the scene with Damian:

----------


## millernumber1

What's the source on the Damian piece? It looks a bit familiar - was that during Tony Daniel's run on Batman?

----------


## Aahz

> What's the source on the Damian piece? It looks a bit familiar - was that during Tony Daniel's run on Batman?


Batman Annual #27 written by Fabian Nicieza.

----------


## Aahz

> Wow, this was apparently a popular trope!


If you look at the number of stories with Dick as Robin 3 times is not that much.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman Annual #27 written by Fabian Nicieza.


I think I read that one.




> If you look at the number of stories with Dick as Robin 3 times is not that much.


Eh. Seems like a lot.  :Smile: 

Of course, Steph as Robin had like three stories total, so maybe that's why I think it's such a big number.

----------


## Red obin

Havent been here a while but feel like this thread needs more anime Steph Robin hair. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> Havent been here a while but feel like this thread needs more anime Steph Robin hair.


That is lovely.

----------


## millernumber1

> Havent been here a while but feel like this thread needs more anime Steph Robin hair.


I love that cover. I'm still super happy I found the issue in good shape for $2. Considering going to Baltimore Comic Con to get it signed by Willingham - though I think I'd do it in the interiors, because I like the cover as a cover too much.

----------


## Assam

seriously.jpg

Lee Garbett posted this on Twitter. Apparently, there were plans to have this be a variant cover for the first issue of Steph's Batgirl book. I think if they'd actually gone with it, while it's well drawn, us Cass fans would have been even angrier. If that's possible I mean. We were pretty much on a consistent level of unrivaled rage for a good decade.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> seriously.jpg
> 
> Lee Garbett posted this on Twitter. Apparently, there were plans to have this be a variant cover for the first issue of Steph's Batgirl book. I think if they'd actually gone with it, while it's well drawn, us Cass fans would have been even angrier. If that's possible I mean. We were pretty much on a consistent level of unrivaled rage for a good decade.


Interesting. I'm not sure I like that image as much as Cully Hamner's actual variant for the issue:

Batgirl (2009-2011) 001-001.jpg

It's still got the "Looks like Cass" problem, though.

However, I'm currently involved in one of the nastiest debates about Steph vs. Cass I've seen for a few months, so I'm hoping we can remember the good times right now. Steph and Cass fans should be allies, not accusing each other of personal failings for character preference.

----------


## Assam

> However, I'm currently involved in one of the nastiest debates about Steph vs. Cass I've seen for a few months, so I'm hoping we can remember the good times right now. Steph and Cass fans should be allies, not accusing each other of personal failings for character preference.


So many ways from different sources the hate between these groups could have been avoided. If Cass had been a regular presence if Steph's book. If the majority of Steph's vocal fanbase had actually read Cass's book and weren't only familiar with BQM's Batgirl, thus seeing how close the two are. If Cass had gotten her own solo in Batman Reborn away from the Batgirl mantle so it wasn't just yet another example in a string of years of Cass getting screwed. If Gail Simone had been allowed to include her in her Birds of Prey line-up like she wanted, and wasn't denied the ability to so Morrison could have her cameo in Inc. And of course, always the most unfortunate part, if so many Steph fans hadn't been downright rude and dismissive during the years they were both missing. 

Would you mind linking me to this debate? I'm curious.

----------


## millernumber1

It's on 4Chan. http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/93968601
The debate is nearer to the bottom.

NSFW

----------


## Assam

> It's on 4Chan. http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/93968601
> The debate is nearer to the bottom.
> 
> NSFW


Could have done without the Cass porn but that's what I get for looking at a 4chan thread. :Frown: 

Regardless, this pretty much sums up half the people in this discussion. (Swearing Warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGrunP_HCDg

As usual, I was able to identity you pretty quickly.

----------


## millernumber1

> So many ways from different sources the hate between these groups could have been avoided. If Cass had been a regular presence if Steph's book. If the majority of Steph's vocal fanbase had actually read Cass's book and weren't only familiar with BQM's Batgirl, thus seeing how close the two are. If Cass had gotten her own solo in Batman Reborn away from the Batgirl mantle so it wasn't just yet another example in a string of years of Cass getting screwed. If Gail Simone had been allowed to include her in her Birds of Prey line-up like she wanted, and wasn't denied the ability to so Morrison could have her cameo in Inc. And of course, always the most unfortunate part, if so many Steph fans hadn't been downright rude and dismissive during the years they were both missing. 
> 
> Would you mind linking me to this debate? I'm curious.


I completely agree that the internecine feud between Steph and Cass fans could and should have been avoided. Though I do think that for Steph to really succeed as Batgirl, Cass did need to have her own trajectory outside of Steph's book for at least the first year. That trajectory should NOT have meant "not appearing at all for a year", but I don't share the optimism that the story would have worked as well with Cass in Babs's role. That being said, I think a Cass and Steph team-up book should have been on the table after Batgirl Rising, and would likely have boosted both characters to points where they could possibly not have been erased in the n52.




> Could have done without the Cass porn but that's what I get for looking at a 4chan thread.
> 
> Regardless, this pretty much sums up half the people in this discussion. (Swearing Warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGrunP_HCDg
> 
> As usual, I was able to identity you pretty quickly.


Well, I did say it was NSFW. But my apologies. As for being identifiable, what can I say?  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Spoiler will be in _Young Justice: Outsiders_.

----------


## yohyoi

We may get Spoiler in Young Justice season 3. I'm reading updates in DC Comics Reddit.

----------


## yohyoi

> Spoiler will be in _Young Justice: Outsiders_.


Beat me to it. Damn it.

----------


## joybeans

Did not see that coming, but that's pretty awesome.

----------


## millernumber1

WHAT WHAT WHAT?

Well, clearly I now need to watch Young Justice. HOLY CATS.

----------


## yohyoi

> WHAT WHAT WHAT?
> 
> Well, clearly I now need to watch Young Justice. HOLY CATS.


You should have been doing that since Season 1. It's one of the most tightly plotted and mature storytelling DC has done.

I recommend you watch Season 1 then 2. There are plot developments and time skips that will confuse you if you start in Season 3.

----------


## Frontier

> You should have been doing that since Season 1. It's one of the most tightly plotted and mature storytelling DC has done.
> 
> I recommend you watch Season 1 then 2. There are plot developments and time skips that will confuse you if you start in Season 3.


Steph also made a small cameo in season 2  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> You should have been doing that since Season 1. It's one of the most tightly plotted and mature storytelling DC has done.
> 
> I recommend you watch Season 1 then 2. There are plot developments and time skips that will confuse you if you start in Season 3.


Well, yes, I would definitely watch in order.

I'm not as into the DC animated stuff. Just not my thing. But for Steph, I will definitely do it.

----------


## yohyoi

> Steph also made a small cameo in season 2 .


Her first outside media cameo too  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph also made a small cameo in season 2 .


Oh, I've seen that one. Voiced by one of my faves, Mae Whitman!  :Smile:

----------


## darkseidpwns

Well congrats to Steph.

----------


## Frontier

> Oh, I've seen that one. Voiced by one of my faves, Mae Whitman!


Who's also voiced Batgirl twice  :Wink: . 

It all comes full circle in a way  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## yohyoi

Steph as Spoiler in Young Justice. 

Welcome to the animated world, Spoiler.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph as Spoiler in Young Justice. 
> 
> Welcome to the animated world, Spoiler.


Oh, man, that looks AMAZING! YES!

----------


## adrikito

SPOILER ALERT... SPOILER ALERT..

YJ.jpg

THANKS SEASON 2.. As *yohyoi* said, Wellcome to the animated world spoiler.

----------


## dietrich

Excited to see Steph return to YJ and as Spoiler. As part of the offical team.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Finally, spoiler is here:
> 
> YJ.jpg
> 
> THANKS SEASON 2.. As Miller said, Wellcome to the animated world spoiler.


emphasis on young huh this is pretty much Tim's team by the look of it. He got a love triangle brewing in it too.

----------


## yohyoi

> emphasis on young huh this is pretty much Tim's team by the look of it. He got a love triangle brewing in it too.


And there is no Superboy to ruin it.

----------


## Katana500

> Excited to see Steph return to YJ and as Spoiler. As part of the offical team.


Yay Spoiler! Never thought I'd see her in a show!

----------


## dietrich

> And there is no Superboy to ruin it.


Kon is still on the show. They also released screen shots of the original team.

----------


## yohyoi

> Kon is still on the show. They also released screen shots of the original team.


But he is with Dick and the original gang. Dating Cassie will be the last thing he does.

----------


## Red obin

> Steph as Spoiler in Young Justice. 
> 
> Welcome to the animated world, Spoiler.


I jus this and the first thing I did was come here! Steph finally gets outside media appearances!

----------


## millernumber1

> I jus this and the first thing I did was come here! Steph finally gets outside media appearances!


It's what the world need!  :Smile:  Now we just need a season 4 to get Cass in here...  :Wink:

----------


## KrustyKid

Yes! Animated Steph! Bout time.

----------


## Red obin

> It's what the world need!  Now we just need a season 4 to get Cass in here...


Or just a spinoff series with the main characters being Tim,Steph and Cass...That would be nice.

----------


## millernumber1

> Or just a spinoff series with the main characters being Tim,Steph and Cass...That would be nice.


OR! A spinoff COMIC tie-in series with Steph, Cass, and Tim!

----------


## Red obin

> OR! A spinoff COMIC tie-in series with Steph, Cass, and Tim!


OR a steph solo series with no links to YJ!

----------


## millernumber1

> OR a steph solo series with no links to YJ!


OR! A spinoff comic of Steph, Cass, and Tim from YJ, AND a solo Steph series in main continuity, AND appearances by Steph in every Elseworlds story going on right now! (Except Injustice. I don't want her to die again.  :Smile:  )

----------


## KrustyKid

> OR! A spinoff comic of Steph, Cass, and Tim from YJ, AND a solo Steph series in main continuity, AND appearances by Steph in every Elseworlds story going on right now! (*Except Injustice. I don't want her to die again*.  )


Lol, thanks for the laugh

----------


## Assam

First Reaction: CISSSSIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!!!! 

Second Reaction: STEEEEEEEEEEEEPH! 

Third Reaction: TRAAAAAAAAACIIIIIIIIIII!I OHMYGODILOVEALLOFTHESECHOICES!!! 

Fourth Reaction:...when Cass and Slobo

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

She looks like a ninja (very cool).

----------


## Frontier

I wonder how Steph gets onto the Team and what her connection to the Batfamily will be like in this continuity? 

I also wonder if we'll see Cluemaster working with the Light....

----------


## millernumber1

> I wonder how Steph gets onto the Team and what her connection to the Batfamily will be like in this continuity? 
> 
> I also wonder if we'll see Cluemaster working with the Light....


I also really hope that there's a version of her fight against Cluemaster - that's really the origin of Steph.

----------


## Punisher007

Well she and Tim interacted briefly in Season 2 (she was one of the civilians that he and the others saved in an episode).  She also interacted with other members of the team.  

And Barbara went from just some girl that Tim knew in Season 1, to being Batgirl and on the team in Season 2 with pretty much no explanation of how she got there given.

So they might do the same for Steph.  She's Spoiler now, and that's all there is to it.  Time-skips are really convenient in these cases it would seem.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well she and Tim interacted briefly in Season 2 (she was one of the civilians that he and the others saved in an episode).  She also interacted with other members of the team.  
> 
> And Barbara went from just some girl that Tim knew in Season 1, to being Batgirl and on the team in Season 2 with pretty much no explanation of how she got there given.
> 
> So they might do the same for Steph.  She's Spoiler now, and that's all there is to it.  Time-skips are really convenient in these cases it would seem.


I can hope, though, can't I?  :Smile:

----------


## Sannom

> I also wonder if we'll see Cluemaster working with the Light....


I would like to see him hired as one of the Light's top strategist. The New 52 already "upgraded" him as someone who nearly brought down Batman, and despite his reputation as a loser in the old continuity, it often felt like the only reason he was foiled was because his daughter managed to spy on him or because the Baffler was an idiot : otherwise, his plans worked.

----------


## Assam

Despite my comments in other threads, I'm having no trouble feeling happy for Steph fans (Seriously, it's a big win), but in addition to my _other_ concern, I'm legitimately worried that she's only there for the love triangle. I swear, if they actually make Steph and Cassie _fight_ over Tim... :Mad:

----------


## yohyoi

> Despite my comments in other threads, I'm having no trouble feeling happy for Steph fans (Seriously, it's a big win), but in addition to my _other_ concern, I'm legitimately worried that she's only there for the love triangle. I swear, if they actually make Steph and Cassie _fight_ over Tim...


They will most likely fight over Tim.

----------


## adrikito

I see a timeskip of 2-3 years... 

According YJ wiki, Steph has 12 years in the season 2.. and Tim 14... But maybe Steph is only a little more than 1 year younger..  

http://youngjustice.wikia.com/wiki/Stephanie_Brown

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Awesome that Steph is finally getting a real appearance outside of the comics!

----------


## Sannom

And now we're only waiting for Cassandra to have one... I'm a big Steph fan and not much of a Cass one, but even I think there is something unfair there!




> Despite my comments in other threads, I'm having no trouble feeling happy for Steph fans (Seriously, it's a big win), but in addition to my _other_ concern, I'm legitimately worried that she's only there for the love triangle. I swear, if they actually make Steph and Cassie _fight_ over Tim...


For all we know, Tim and Cassie will be over by the time of this season.

----------


## millernumber1

Even though I'm a huge Tim/Steph shipper, I loathe love triangles, so I hope they don't devote any time to one!  :Smile:

----------


## Laevatein

Cass/Steph/Tim OT3!

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## millernumber1

> 


But who is Steph calling?

Cass in the doorway looks so sweet.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/....php?qid=22148




> Matthew the Dragon knight writes...
> Dear Greg, I just wanted to say I'm wishing luck to you and everyone involved with young Justice season 3.
> I wanted to ask who are your top 4 favorite robins, and what you like about them.
> Greg responds...
> Geez, top 4 Robins. How many are there? Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, Damien and Carrie, if you count Dark Knight. Harper, if you count Bluebird, right? Throw in a Bat-Girl and some Batgirls, and you've got Bette, Barbara, Cassandra and Stephanie again. Then Batwoman's Kate. Nightwing's Dick again. Bette again with Flamebird. Barbara again with Oracle. Stephanie again with Spoiler. Luke. Batwing. Ace the Bat-hound. Bat-mite. Cassandra's Orphan. Azrael. Even Clayface. Wow, when you count 'em up, Batman's a protogee machine, isn't he?
> And I'm sure I'm leaving some out.


That's pretty cool - this stuff sounds more like Weisman has actually read these comics, since I don't think you'd get all that from just reading sourcebooks. The mention of Luke, Cass as Orphan, Azrael, and Clayface indicate that he's reading Tec...  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

The problem with Steph on YJ is that part of her arc was already featured and merged in artemis. Cluemaster was just replaced with sportsmaster though.

----------


## CPSparkles

> But who is Steph calling?
> 
> Cass in the doorway looks so sweet.


Cass does look sweet and so shy at the doorway 

Is it me or does steph look pregnant in that drawing.

I need more of this in the comics.

----------


## Sannom

> The problem with Steph on YJ is that part of her arc was already featured and merged in artemis. Cluemaster was just replaced with sportsmaster though.


Now that Sportsmaster is back to being an independent agent, it does feel like we could get a re-thread of Artemis' arc with Spoiler. Especially if Cluemaster gets the "upgrade" treatment and becomes an active and dangerous agent of the Light.

----------


## millernumber1

> The problem with Steph on YJ is that part of her arc was already featured and merged in artemis. Cluemaster was just replaced with sportsmaster though.





> Now that Sportsmaster is back to being an independent agent, it does feel like we could get a re-thread of Artemis' arc with Spoiler. Especially if Cluemaster gets the "upgrade" treatment and becomes an active and dangerous agent of the Light.


To be fair, a lot of character backstories are repeated - Bruce's and Dick's parents both being murdered, then they are mentored by older men to become a vigilante, etc, etc.




> Cass does look sweet and so shy at the doorway 
> 
> Is it me or does steph look pregnant in that drawing.
> 
> I need more of this in the comics.


She does, a bit.  :Smile:  I'd imagine in this AU, though, it's not Dean's.

----------


## Assam

snack break.jpg

10char

----------


## millernumber1

I choose to believe those are French Toast sticks.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> snack break.jpg
> 
> 10char


GREAT image.

----------


## Phoenyxx1481

I loved Stephanie as Batgirl and wish she was still Batgirl instead of Babs.  It was one of my favorite pre New 52 series.

----------


## millernumber1

> I loved Stephanie as Batgirl and wish she was still Batgirl instead of Babs.  It was one of my favorite pre New 52 series.


You will find many fine folk in this thread who agree with you (except for those who wish that Cass was Batgirl, Babs was Oracle, and Steph was Robin, which I am also okay with.  :Smile:  )

----------


## Frontier

I love Steph in any identity  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I love Steph in any identity .


As do I. She's just so great - fiery as Spoiler, a flame of enthusiasm as Robin, and a bundle of hope as Batgirl!

----------


## Assam

> (except for those who wish that Cass was Batgirl, Babs was Oracle, and Steph was Robin, which I am also okay with.  )


You called?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Also, Miller, if by some act of the Presence, this line-up was able to exist, would you be yay or nay on someone like Nell or Tiffany taking up the Spoiler mantle? (No reason, just curious.)

----------


## millernumber1

> You called? 
> 
> Also, Miller, if by some act of the Presence, this line-up was able to exist, would you be yay or nay on someone like Nell or Tiffany taking up the Spoiler mantle? (No reason, just curious.)


Ello! Why, as a matter of fact, I was thinking of you! But I'm all about trying to bind the Cass and Steph fans together, rather than pit them against each other.  :Smile: 

I would be on board with Nell. Tiffany I am not as thrilled with, because she only had one issue, and her relationships in that issue were more with Cass and Barbara, whereas Nell, I think, is really important in Steph's series in several issues. (Also, I'm annoyed that Tiffany took Tam's place in Luke's series - but in Tec, Luke's mentioned that Tam's running his company, so I'm happy about that.  :Smile:  ).

----------


## Assam

> Ello! Why, as a matter of fact, I was thinking of you! *But I'm all about trying to bind the Cass and Steph fans together, rather than pit them against each other.*


Well hey, if Tim gets his history as Robin restored as so many are expecting to see happen in Lonely Place of Living, and the same doesn't end up happening with the girl's histories,  the two fanbases will have yet ANOTHER thing to be angry about together...even though Steph's placement in YJ has pretty much killed any chance of there ever being _actual_ ambivalence between the fandoms. 




> I would be on board with Nell. Tiffany I am not as thrilled with, because she only had one issue, and her relationships in that issue were more with Cass and Barbara, whereas Nell, I think, is really important in Steph's series in several issues. (Also, I'm annoyed that Tiffany took Tam's place in Luke's series - but in Tec, Luke's mentioned that Tam's running his company, so I'm happy about that.  ).


Gotcha. I prefer the idea of Nell take up the eggplant as well. I only even brought up Tiff because she acquired a surprising number of fans from that one issue.

----------


## millernumber1

> Gotcha. I prefer the idea of Nell take up the eggplant as well. I only even brought up Tiff because she acquired a surprising number of fans from that one issue.


Simone's an A-lister, and that issue got a LOT of extra eyeballs because of Steph and Cass, and being a one shot part of an event, and because it was Simone's last issue on the title. So I think she got a lot of people just aware of her for external reasons. I don't think she's anywhere close to Simone's best creation, though.

----------


## adrikito

> i love steph in any identity .


I think the same.

----------


## millernumber1

http://darkknightnews.com/2017/07/21...ective-comics/

Some interesting tidbits from Carmen Carnero, the artist who drew Steph's one-shot last month, and will be drawing her two-shot in the coming months.

_"DKN: I love your more delicate moments. They’re really some of my favorite parts in all of the comics you’ve illustrated. Are there any characters you’d like to draw in the future?

CC: My ultimate goal is to one day draw Superman. But there are always characters that, although you think you may not enjoy drawing them, when the time comes around to actually doing it, it turns out to be great fun! Right now I’m having a blast with the huge variety of characters that appear in Detective Comics; Spoiler, Clayface and Batman in particular."_

Some hints about who is appearing in the upcoming arc!

_"DKN: I’m really looking forward to your “Longer Chains” story arc. It’s due to start when “Intelligence” concludes, right?

CC: Right now, I don’t know if the story’s still going to be called “Longer Chains.” What I can tell you is that I’ll definitely be drawing two more issues (#963 and #964) which will also focus on Spoiler. It will continue the story between her and Anarky from exactly where we left them at the end of Detective Comics #957. Anarky’s intentions will finally be revealed, and we’ll be tying up a few more dangling plot threads too. Everything’s connected!"_

Interesting that the titles are still fluid - though, to be honest, the titles really aren't super important. I'm a big fan of Carnero, and hope she continues to be a regular presence with Tec going forward - the structure of a 5-6 part arc, followed by a one or two-shot, seems really smart to me - giving all of the art teams the chance to catch their breath and do their best work. Though I think Ben Percy's one or two-shot for Tec is still supposed to happen at some point - maybe after A Lonely Place of Living? Also, the bit about everything being connected may be why Christopher Sebela is schedulled to co-write those issues, so that the connections are strong. (Even though I'm still kinda mad that it seems like Tynion is farming Steph out.)

----------


## adrikito

Thank you.

----------


## Assam

Carried over from the War Games thread because it wasn't really relevant there: 




> I like the way Joker is mad at Black Mask because he killed Robin, which indicates that Steph was really Robin,


You know what's a much nicer indication that Steph really was a Robin (Among all the others including Bruce _outright stating it_) that no one ever really seems to bring up? 

Attachment 52236

This panel is from The Flash Vol.2. Before 2009. _Damian_ hadn't become Robin yet.

----------


## millernumber1

> Carried over from the War Games thread because it wasn't really relevant there: 
> 
> You know what's a much nicer indication that Steph really was a Robin (Among all the others including Bruce _outright stating it_) that no one ever really seems to bring up? 
> 
> Attachment 52236
> 
> This panel is from The Flash Vol.2. Before 2009. _Damian_ hadn't become Robin yet.


Attachment seems broken? And what issue of The Flash - I feel the sudden urge to go read some Flash...  :Wink:  (And I agree - there are better ways that Steph has been recognized as Robin - but for some reason, I really liked the way Joker was so mad that he didn't get to kill Steph.)

----------


## Assam

> Attachment seems broken? And what issue of The Flash - I feel the sudden urge to go read some Flash...  (And I agree - there are better ways that Steph has been recognized as Robin - but for some reason, I really liked the way Joker was so mad that he didn't get to kill Steph.)


Huh. The attachment works fine for me. 

Anyway, it's from Flash Vol2. # 233. Batman, Roy Harper and few other JL members dropped by Wally's house because they were concerned about him taking his kids into combat. 

Wally's response?

"From you? I take this from you? I'm getting lectured on child safety by a man who's gone through FOUR ROBINS?"

----------


## millernumber1

> Huh. The attachment works fine for me. 
> 
> Anyway, it's from Flash Vol2. # 233. Batman, Roy Harper and few other JL members dropped by Wally's house because they were concerned about him taking his kids into combat. 
> 
> Wally's response?
> 
> "From you? I take this from you? I'm getting lectured on child safety by a man who's gone through FOUR ROBINS?"


Well done.  :Smile:  Nice Freddie Williams art, too!

----------


## Invisible Kid

> Huh. The attachment works fine for me. 
> 
> Anyway, it's from Flash Vol2. # 233. Batman, Roy Harper and few other JL members dropped by Wally's house because they were concerned about him taking his kids into combat. 
> 
> Wally's response?
> 
> "From you? I take this from you? I'm getting lectured on child safety by a man who's gone through FOUR ROBINS?"


Now whenever my friends say Steph wasn't a real Robin just because Batman didn't treat her as one, I can just remind them that Wally West did.

(Wally West's opinion is far more powerful and respected than Bruce Wayne's)

----------


## millernumber1

> Now whenever my friends say Steph wasn't a real Robin just because Batman didn't treat her as one, I can just remind them that Wally West did.
> 
> (Wally West's opinion is far more powerful and respected than Bruce Wayne's)


Well done!

----------


## Assam

brandon peterson.jpg

THE. BEST. ROBIN. 

Dick on his best day only looks half this fabulous.

----------


## millernumber1

> brandon peterson.jpg
> 
> THE. BEST. ROBIN. 
> 
> Dick on his best day only looks half this fabulous.


So true! Damion Scott deserves to be remembered for his Batgirl run alone, but if not that, then definitely his "flaming haired Robin" design.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

I have a ten-page collection of "The Best of Steph" in my tumblr Steph tag which I'm hoping to start posting soon, but because of the announcement of Steph in Young Justice, and my marathon of the series for the first time (since it's leaving Netflix on August 1st), I wanted to share some of the designs from fans long, long before the third season was announced.

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1473...ond-set-for-my
1.jpg

Going with the n52/Rebirth design.

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1331...ng-justice-spo
2.jpg

Going with her pre-Flashpoint Spoiler garb

And for comparison, the actual design
3.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

And a couple of shippy bits with YJ Tim and hypothetical Steph:

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1230...mission-yj-tim
1.jpg

This one is just sweet, with the smiles.

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1232...ble-by-request
2.jpg

I like the undercover, determined, sarcastic vibe I get from this one.

----------


## Red obin

It's intersting that Bryan Q Miller has certain beats which make it into most of his works.
Teen Dance machine= TTvsJL and his TT run
the line "Here starteth the lesson."= TT run and Batgirl
Fairgrounds= TT run and TTvsJL
Calculator= Batgirl and TT run

Also by the way Teen Titans and batgirl completely skim over the death of kid eternity.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's intersting that Bryan Q Miller has certain beats which make it into most of his works.
> Teen Dance machine= TTvsJL and his TT run
> the line "Here starteth the lesson."= TT run and Batgirl
> Fairgrounds= TT run and TTvsJL
> Calculator= Batgirl and TT run


I dunno if the Calculator is so much a beat as an ongoing plotline that he carried over between the two runs. I would be very interested to see how BQM's tv writing compares to his comics - I think I've seen all of his Smallville episodes, and one of his Arrow episodes, but nothing really stuck out to me.

----------


## Red obin

> I dunno if the Calculator is so much a beat as an ongoing plotline that he carried over between the two runs. I would be very interested to see how BQM's tv writing compares to his comics - I think I've seen all of his Smallville episodes, and one of his Arrow episodes, but nothing really stuck out to me.


Yeah, there are others I have forgotten(just got his TT paperback), so calculator was to bulk out list.
What about his smallville comics run? I have not read it and probably never will. He wrote arrow?!?! which ones?

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, there are others I have forgotten(just got his TT paperback), so calculator was to bulk out list.
> What about his smallville comics run? I have not read it and probably never will. He wrote arrow?!?! which ones?


Don't remember for sure on Arrow, but here's his IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3162615/

I adore his Smallville run - it's one of the few times I actually love a Superman comic. That was so defined by him doing his best to continue the legacy of the show it felt very much like a TV continuation, rather than something more of his own style. I mean, I think you can tell it's him, but it didn't feel quite as uniquely BQM as his Batgirl or TT.

----------


## Assam

When I was with my personal trainer today, he basically told me what Kate told Steph about her strengths and weaknesses in 'Tec #935. Thought that was a little surreal.

----------


## Assam

trio de steph.jpg

Trio de Steph

----------


## millernumber1

I call that grouping "Seeing Something Through" from the line in Batgirl where Steph says, "I've been Spoiler. I've been Robin. Now, I'm seeing something through, which is a new thing for me" (paraphrase).  :Smile:  (Just like I call pictures of Steph as Robin "Part of the legend" and Steph as Batgirl "Here we go" and Spoiler Steph "Spoiler alert!")

----------


## millernumber1

The Batgirl: A Celebration of 50 Years anthology is on sale for 10 bucks - a really nice deal - and it has a whole section (2 issues) devoted to Steph! Also, the "Batgirl: Deadline" trade, containing the League of Batgirls: Future's End story is on sale, and the Convergence: Flashpoint trade containing the Convergence: Batgirl miniseries (this one also has the Convergence: Question miniseries, which was the best thing to come out of Convergence).

https://www.comixology.com/comics-sa...d=18540&lang=1

----------


## Assam

> Convergence: Question miniseries, which was the best thing to come out of Convergence.


Did you even to say that? I thought that was just universally accepted as fact.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Did you even to say that? I thought that was just universally accepted as fact.


I mean, I feel like a lot of people aren't aware of it.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I mean, I feel like a lot of people aren't aware of it.


You think? Anytime I see a discussion about Convergence, the one thing everyone seems to agree on was that The Question's tie-in was the best.

----------


## millernumber1

> You think? Anytime I see a discussion about Convergence, the one thing everyone seems to agree on was that The Question's tie-in was the best.


I mean...how many discussions about Convergence do you see, though? It was a pretty forgettable event, I think. The Convergence: The Question should appeal to anyone who is a fan of Renee from 52, Gotham Central, NML, or The Question: Pipeline.

Unlike Convergence: Batgirl, which takes so much "grit your teeth to find the good" for fans of Steph, Cass, and Tim, that it's not something I like to bring up that much. I mean, I CAN defend it, if I HAVE to (I'm hoping to see Alisa Kwitney at a con, and see if I can ask some questions about it), but it's pretty tough. Especially on the art front. Rick Leonardi! You've done some spectacular work in your career! What was that?

----------


## Assam

> Unlike Convergence: Batgirl, which takes so much "grit your teeth to find the good" for fans of Steph, Cass, and Tim, that it's not something I like to bring up that much. I mean, I CAN defend it, if I HAVE to (I'm hoping to see Alisa Kwitney at a con, and see if I can ask some questions about it), but it's pretty tough. Especially on the art front. Rick Leonardi! You've done some spectacular work in your career! What was that?


It was a book that had Cass, my other two my favorite BatFam members, my favorite comic book villain (Catman) and Rick Leonardi on art. It _should_  have been spectacular. 

I think Steph came of it alright (from what I remember), but Thomas was a mess, the art was...sub-par, the year in the dome seemed to make Tim forget about the Batman Reborn years, and oh sweet jesus some of Cass's dialogue. To this day I'm not sure if the worst of that was her speech pattern in general, the "mammary gland" line, Cass being grossed out by Tim and Steph at the end for some reason, or Kwitney joining the list of writers who seemed to think that Cass's no kill rule only applied to people, and not all life....actually I take it back, that last part was definitely the worst.

----------


## millernumber1

Steph...came out least bad? But she spends the whole thing being obviously pathetic at fighting (this is supposed to be the Steph who impressed Red Robin Tim in Collision, and fought ALL of mind-controlled Gotham to get to Babs), quitting because a lion is euthanized (instead of, say, a child dying? I dunno, seems pretty weak sauce, Steph), and just looking like total garbage (it pains me to say this, because I KNOW Leonardi can do better). As you say, Catman was nearly a complete non-entity, Cass was really awkward in a very non-Cass way, and Tim was suddenly awkward stiff ex boyfriend man? And the plot resolution was just not flattering to any of the characters involved. The only thing that actually worked on a craft level for me was the TimSteph shipping (which hurts it in your eyes), because Kwitney likes writing angsty romances (see also: New Avengers: Breakout the novel).

----------


## Assam

> Steph...came out least bad? But she spends the whole thing being obviously pathetic at fighting (this is supposed to be the Steph who impressed Red Robin Tim in Collision, and fought ALL of mind-controlled Gotham to get to Babs), quitting because a lion is euthanized (instead of, say, a child dying? I dunno, seems pretty weak sauce, Steph), and just looking like total garbage (it pains me to say this, because I KNOW Leonardi can do better). As you say, Catman was nearly a complete non-entity, Cass was really awkward in a very non-Cass way, and Tim was suddenly awkward stiff ex boyfriend man? And the plot resolution was just not flattering to any of the characters involved. The only thing that actually worked on a craft level for me was the TimSteph shipping (which hurts it in your eyes), because Kwitney likes writing angsty romances (see also: New Avengers: Breakout the novel).


Like I said, it was just how I remembered it. Guess it really was just a s**tshow all around. 

Don't think I've ever actually read anything else from Kwitney. YOu mentioned she likes writing angsty romances, but is this what all her writing is like?

----------


## millernumber1

> Like I said, it was just how I remembered it. Guess it really was just a s**tshow all around. 
> 
> Don't think I've ever actually read anything else from Kwitney. YOu mentioned she likes writing angsty romances, but is this what all her writing is like?


She's mostly a novel writer, with just a couple comics that I'm aware of. I think the problem with it was mostly that she's not great at writing a previous characterization. With new characters, or characters she's working with in prose, I think she's better.

She also started as an editor, I believe - working with Neil Gaiman.

----------


## Assam

> She also started as an editor, I believe - working with Neil Gaiman.


Wow! That's a pretty impressive thing to have on a resume. (I love Neil Gaiman) 

Also, I should mention that while Convergence: The Question _was_ unquestionably the strongest on a technical level, Convergence:Titans is by far my favorite, because f**k Cry for Justice and f**k the people who say these tie-ins aren't canon, Roy Harper cleaned up his act and Lian came back to life, and over on the Pre-Flashpoint Earth, they have continued to live happily.

----------


## Red obin

REMINDER:Batgirl Steph book out in a couple of weeks. It is literally my favourite comic run.

----------


## millernumber1

> REMINDER:Batgirl Steph book out in a couple of weeks. It is literally my favourite comic run.


Yes! Very true! I'm seriously considering buying it digitally, even though I already have all the issues in the old trades, just to show DC that Steph is still loved.

----------


## Assam

> REMINDER:Batgirl Steph book out in a couple of weeks. It is literally my favourite comic run.


Probably won't be picking it up. Nothing against it, but I have all the floppies and I only really get reprints for series that I absolutely LOVE (Cass's Batgirl, Young Justice, Legionnaires etc)

----------


## millernumber1

> Probably won't be picking it up. Nothing against it, but I have all the floppies and I only really get reprints for series that I absolutely LOVE (Cass's Batgirl, Young Justice, Legionnaires etc)


Haha, totally fair. But I think it would be nice to have digitally for myself, since it is one of the series I absolutely adore.

----------


## Red obin

> Yes! Very true! I'm seriously considering buying it digitally, even though I already have all the issues in the old trades, just to show DC that Steph is still loved.


I have the lesson trade, so will likely get this and somehow find #14( it's gonna be hard) as I also have lots of the floppies including #13.

----------


## millernumber1

> I have the lesson trade, so will likely get this and somehow find #14( it's gonna be hard) as I also have lots of the floppies including #13.


Oh, man. #14 is the Steph/Kara teamup, right? I have a copy, and might be willing to sell it - send me a PM.

----------


## Red obin

> Oh, man. #14 is the Steph/Kara teamup, right? I have a copy, and might be willing to sell it - send me a PM.


Don't worry, I am currently bidding on the issue online, going to wait and see.
Meanwhile, some nguyen Steph art: What is everyone's favourite Steph story?

----------


## Assam

> What is everyone's favourite Steph story?


A tie between the many team-ups she had with Cass in Batgirl Vol. 1. Puckett wrote by far my favorite Steph, and Horrocks' Batgirl and Robin issue is glorious. Without these stories, I wouldn't even like Steph half as much as I do.

----------


## millernumber1

Favorite Steph story: I'm going to go with favorite per era:

Favorite Dixon-Spoiler-Steph era - probably her origin. The pregnancy was great, the time when she was kidnapped was great, but that three issue origin was so well written.

Favorite Robin-Steph era - I have to admit I really like the Detective Comics 796 issue - partly because Pete Woods's art is so gorgeous, but partly because that's how I wanted to see Steph's relationship with Bruce be going forward. Though I do have a soft spot for the Calling All Robins issue of Batman The Brave and the Bold cartoon tie-in comic.

Favorite Batgirl story - I have to admit, Steph getting thanked for being a hero for the first time in Batgirl Rising, and Babs coming around to her side, is probably the most powerful thing about her Batgirl run for me. Though the final issue always makes me misty eyed.

Favorite n52/Rebirth story - Probably Batman Eternal, though I also like when she takes over for Babsgirl as Babsgirl goes off to Europe. I'm still a bit sad that we didn't get more of that.

----------


## Chickfighter

Yes, the final issue of the Batgirl run is impossible to top, but that's a bit unfair since it depends on the existence of the rest.

Other faves are the Batman Inc tale because Steph finally realizes that Batman trusts her and she never needed his approval.

The Batgirl issue (I forget the number) in which she and Damian team up and end up in the bounce house.

And a couple of the issues of the Cass Batgirl series with Steph as Spoiler are quite wonderful.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, the final issue of the Batgirl run is impossible to top, but that's a bit unfair since it depends on the existence of the rest.
> 
> Other faves are the Batman Inc tale because Steph finally realizes that Batman trusts her and she never needed his approval.
> 
> The Batgirl issue (I forget the number) in which she and Damian team up and end up in the bounce house.
> 
> And a couple of the issues of the Cass Batgirl series with Steph as Spoiler are quite wonderful.


Batgirl #17 - the bouncy castle - definitely a top issue.

Batgirl #26, where Steph fills in for Cass as she recovers from the Shiva fight

The issue of Batgirl where Steph promises to be Cass's best friend if she takes her with Cass.

----------


## Frontier

Has Steph ever had any significant interaction with Black Canary?

----------


## Assam

> Batgirl #17 - the bouncy castle - definitely a top issue.


You know it's funny. While most of Steph's Batgirl run doesn't rank among my favorite Steph appearances, Damian's appearances there are probably still my all-time favorite of his, right up there with Gates of Gotham. 




> Batgirl #26, where Steph fills in for Cass as she recovers from the Shiva fight


Peterson definitely hit it out of the park on this one. Is it weird that I always wanted to see that cultist again? He seemed like he could be a fun villain. 




> The issue of Batgirl where Steph promises to be Cass's best friend if she takes her with Cass.


Actually the promise was made in regards to wanting to train with her, but semantics. Still great. #28 is amazing and the Cass/Steph scenes in it are some of my favorite scenes in comics. 

I'm inclined to agree with the fandom's consensus though that the moment they truly became best friends happened much earlier though, in the excellent #21. This beautiful scene specifically. 

friends.jpg

forever.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Has Steph ever had any significant interaction with Black Canary?


Yes! In Birds of Prey, 40 and 41, I think, and the Robin 80 Page Giant.

Why?

----------


## Frontier

> Yes! In Birds of Prey, 40 and 41, I think, and the Robin 80 Page Giant.
> 
> Why?


Just curious  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Just curious .


Welp, I've always been sad that Steph wasn't able to guest star in Birds of Prey during Simone's first run. Canary was a great mentor for her in Dixon's hands.

----------


## millernumber1

> You know it's funny. While most of Steph's Batgirl run doesn't rank among my favorite Steph appearances, Damian's appearances there are probably still my all-time favorite of his, right up there with Gates of Gotham. 
> 
> Peterson definitely hit it out of the park on this one. Is it weird that I always wanted to see that cultist again? He seemed like he could be a fun villain. 
> 
> Actually the promise was made in regards to wanting to train with her, but semantics. Still great. #28 is amazing and the Cass/Steph scenes in it are some of my favorite scenes in comics. 
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with the fandom's consensus though that the moment they truly became best friends happened much earlier though, in the excellent #21. This beautiful scene specifically. 
> 
> Attachment 52499
> ...


Ah, I got the Steph reference confused - my bad.

Damian's appearances in Steph's series are gold - and so wisely not overused, I think.

I would like to see the cultist again as well, if only to cement the fact that Steph is a worthwhile opponent, instead of "the incompetent Robin."

----------


## Assam

> I would like to see the cultist again as well, if only to cement the fact that Steph is a worthwhile opponent, instead of "the incompetent Robin."


The League of Assassins knew of Cass, The one who is all. But Mr. Unnamed Cultist knew of the true threat: One who is eggplant! 

But yeah, would have been pretty cool to see him come back for revenge in Steph's Batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

> The League of Assassins knew of Cass, The one who is all. But Mr. Unnamed Cultist knew of the true threat: One who is eggplant! 
> 
> But yeah, would have been pretty cool to see him come back for revenge in Steph's Batgirl.


Ahaha, that's brilliant! Better him than stupid Scarab, who came back in both Robin and Red Robin.

Don't forget Cass's former teammate, the wannabe Pistolera/Gunbunny, who Cass contracted to help train Steph during her time as Robin, though! Speaking of assassins who know about Steph!

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #963 cover by Yasmine Putri:

detective-comics-963-Yasmine-Putri.jpg

----------


## Assam

HA! They gave Lonnie his old staff back! Love it! (Still praying he doesn't get portrayed as a villain)

----------


## millernumber1

I think a fan like Tynion wouldn't go full evil Anarky. That's my prediction, at least. But I do think he's going to be too extreme for Steph.

I like that Steph's on the cover, but I have to admit - I really don't like Yasmin Mitri's covers for Tec. I mean, I normally buy the Albuquerque covers anyway, but the Mitri covers don't even make it difficult, as the Martinez or Barrows covers often do.

----------


## Frontier

> Detective Comics #963 cover by Yasmine Putri:
> 
> detective-comics-963-Yasmine-Putri.jpg


Bishounen Anarky  :Stick Out Tongue: .

And of course this version of Steph would be pointing a phone at Batman...

----------


## Assam

> And of course this version of Steph would be pointing a phone at Batman...


I thought she was just offering him a gram cracker.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bishounen Anarky .
> 
> And of course this version of Steph would be pointing a phone at Batman...


Why would a phone be yellow, though? I think she got the golden ticket in her chocolate bar!

----------


## adrikito

> Detective Comics #963 cover by Yasmine Putri:
> 
> detective-comics-963-Yasmine-Putri.jpg


Oh, oh, Batman is here..

Good Cover.

----------


## millernumber1

Caivu's posted this podcast with the James Tynion IV interview elsewhere, but I've finally gotten to that part of the podcast (it's really long), and there's some really fun stuff JT4 says about our girl.  He confirms my analysis that Steph is being hypocritical because she's a teenager who's been through a huge amount of trauma.  He also talked about the upcoming two parter arc, which he called Utopia/Distopia, and said that Anarky is the crappy college boyfriend vs. Tim’s good high school boyfriend.  Lonnie has a deep passion to change the world, but goes to scary lengths. Saying Anarky is a boyfriend in contrast to Tim makes me really wonder something I hadn't thought of before - will Steph fall in love with Lonnie? She seemed so much older than he was in the Detective Comics: Endgame one-shot during Batman Eternal. But that is something that I'm very curious to find out about!

Definitely recommend the listen!

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/episode-144-4/

----------


## Assam

> will Steph fall in love with Lonnie? She seemed so much older than he was in the Detective Comics: Endgame one-shot during Batman Eternal. But that is something that I'm very curious to find out about!


Well as for the age thing, Rebirth has been playing fast and loose with ages anyway, so I don't think we need to think about that. 

That aside, I actually had this idea a few weeks ago, although I didn't put any stock in it. We know that Tynion, for better or for worse, has been doing remixes of stories these characters have had in the past. What if Tynion decided to re-do the pregnant Steph storyline, but with Lonnie as the father? 

I really don't _think_ we're gonna go down that road, but I wouldn't be shocked if it did.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well as for the age thing, Rebirth has been playing fast and loose with ages anyway, so I don't think we need to think about that. 
> 
> That aside, I actually had this idea a few weeks ago, although I didn't put any stock in it. We know that Tynion, for better or for worse, has been doing remixes of stories these characters have had in the past. What if Tynion decided to re-do the pregnant Steph storyline, but with Lonnie as the father? 
> 
> I really don't _think_ we're gonna go down that road, but I wouldn't be shocked if it did.


Text version of the interview here: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/sdcc-2017-4/

I was thinking about that - but I really hope not. I don't want Steph sidelined that long, or the distraction from the story. She's missing out on TWO guest starring opportunities with her current arc - I want her to be back on the team much faster than that would allow.

----------


## Frontier

> Caivu's posted this podcast with the James Tynion IV interview elsewhere, but I've finally gotten to that part of the podcast (it's really long), and there's some really fun stuff JT4 says about our girl.  He confirms my analysis that Steph is being hypocritical because she's a teenager who's been through a huge amount of trauma.  He also talked about the upcoming two parter arc, which he called Utopia/Distopia, and said that Anarky is the crappy college boyfriend vs. Tim’s good high school boyfriend.  Lonnie has a deep passion to change the world, but goes to scary lengths. Saying Anarky is a boyfriend in contrast to Tim makes me really wonder something I hadn't thought of before - will Steph fall in love with Lonnie? She seemed so much older than he was in the Detective Comics: Endgame one-shot during Batman Eternal. But that is something that I'm very curious to find out about!
> 
> Definitely recommend the listen!
> 
> http://thebatmanuniverse.net/episode-144-4/


I doubt this version of Lonnie is going to have much resemblance to the character from that one-shot or Manapul/Buccelato's 'Tec run. 

I hope Tynion means "boyfriend" in the sense of how they push Steph in different directions rather then Steph actually hooking up with Anarky by the time we get to the story. I can see her growing close to him as he supports her skewed viewpoint and actions, but that's about it. 

And as far as the pregnancy thing...we've only seen her sleep with Tim and I don't think we're going to just jump into that again with Anarky (and even if we do I don't see her getting pregnant that soon after the story). 

It just wouldn't feel right to me on multiple levels.

----------


## Assam

> It just wouldn't feel right to me on multiple levels.


I agree that it wouldn't feel right, and would honestly feel out of place. 

You know what plot twist would feel even more out of place, but would actually be cool? 

gla.jpg

Lonnie becoming a Green Lantern again!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Katana500

> Text version of the interview here: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/sdcc-2017-4/
> 
> I was thinking about that - but I really hope not. I don't want Steph sidelined that long, or the distraction from the story. She's missing out on TWO guest starring opportunities with her current arc - I want her to be back on the team much faster than that would allow.


Pretty interesting interview! Im looking forward to whatever is planned in the future. And I agree with you - I also cant wait until Steph is back in the fold.

----------


## adrikito

> text version of the interview here: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/sdcc-2017-4/
> 
> i was thinking about that - but i really hope not. I don't want steph sidelined that long, or the distraction from the story. She's missing out on two guest starring opportunities with her current arc - i want her to be back on the team much faster than that would allow.


thank you..

----------


## KrustyKid

> Text version of the interview here: http://thebatmanuniverse.net/sdcc-2017-4/
> 
> I was thinking about that - but I really hope not. I don't want Steph sidelined that long, or the distraction from the story. She's missing out on TWO guest starring opportunities with her current arc - I want her to be back on the team much faster than that would allow.


Nice, thanks for posting.

----------


## millernumber1

> I doubt this version of Lonnie is going to have much resemblance to the character from that one-shot or Manapul/Buccelato's 'Tec run. 
> 
> I hope Tynion means "boyfriend" in the sense of how they push Steph in different directions rather then Steph actually hooking up with Anarky by the time we get to the story. I can see her growing close to him as he supports her skewed viewpoint and actions, but that's about it. 
> 
> And as far as the pregnancy thing...we've only seen her sleep with Tim and I don't think we're going to just jump into that again with Anarky (and even if we do I don't see her getting pregnant that soon after the story). 
> 
> It just wouldn't feel right to me on multiple levels.


I'm hoping that the "boyfriend" comment was more about the influence and relationship rather than a romance. But I can't rule it out.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm hoping that the "boyfriend" comment was more about the influence and relationship rather than a romance. But I can't rule it out.


Either way it should make for an interesting one. Count me in as someone who is looking forward to whatever dynamic the two have.

----------


## millernumber1

> Either way it should make for an interesting one. Count me in as someone who is looking forward to whatever dynamic the two have.


Oh, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm always worried about my girl.  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh, I'm looking forward to it. But I'm always worried about my girl.


That shows your true passion. We'll see what ends up happening. Hopefully it makes for a fun ride in the least, and some character progression for Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> That shows your true passion. We'll see what ends up happening. Hopefully it makes for a fun ride in the least, and some character progression for Steph.


Well, I trust Tynion to progress her character - I think all of her appearances in Tec so far have done so in some respect.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Well, I trust Tynion to progress her character - I think all of her appearances in Tec so far have done so in some respect.


Agreed. At least she doesn't come off as "just another sidekick/partner" to Batman. We've been given a lot to show how she is different from the others.

----------


## millernumber1

> Agreed. At least she doesn't come off as "just another sidekick/partner" to Batman. We've been given a lot to show how she is different from the others.


Yup! I really like how her voice is still unique!

----------


## Moriarty

> I'm hoping that the "boyfriend" comment was more about the influence and relationship rather than a romance.


i hope so.  i'd hate for Tim to come back only to find Steph with another guy.

----------


## Assam

> i hope so.  i'd hate for Tim to come back only to find Steph with another guy.


Now THAT part would be hilarious. BWAHAHAHA!

----------


## millernumber1

Now now, Assam, you only think that because you think it would be truly hilarious for Tim to come back to find Steph with Cass  :Wink: . For us TimSteph shippers, we would prefer not to have that particular type of dramz.

----------


## Assam

> Now now, Assam, you only think that because you think it would be truly hilarious for Tim to come back to find Steph with Cass . For us TimSteph shippers, we would prefer not to have that particular type of dramz.


While not *un*true, I remind you that it's not just that I love CassSteph, but I'm actively against TimSteph. They've had nice moments together as a couple, but the relationship really does strike me as unhealthy, and the reason I'd find this funny is because, while they help make Tim who he is, it's *his* personality traits that make the relationship that way.

----------


## Katana500

> i hope so.  i'd hate for Tim to come back only to find Steph with another guy.


I do wonder how Tim will react to Steph going off and abandoning the whole Belfry Project. I'm guessing he will be the one to bring her back into the fold.

and yeah that wouldnt be great

----------


## Katana500

> While not *un*true, I remind you that it's not just that I love CassSteph, but I'm actively against TimSteph. They've had nice moments together as a couple, but the relationship really does strike me as unhealthy, and the reason I'd find this funny is because, while they help make Tim who he is, it's *his* personality traits that make the relationship that way.


Im not really a huge fan of TimSteph either. I never really saw much romantic chemistry between them. But then ive not read alot of the old stuff!

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Im not really a huge fan of TimSteph either. I never really saw much romantic chemistry between them. But then ive not read alot of the old stuff!


Then maybe you should read the old stuff. There was definitely chemistry between them.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Moriarty

the old stuff is great.

----------


## Assam

> the old stuff is great.


DC comics in a nutshell.

----------


## adrikito

> Im not really a huge fan of TimSteph either. I never really saw much romantic chemistry between them. But then ive not read alot of the old stuff!


Tim Drake love interests:

*Stephanie Brown - Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl: Yin and Yang. His One True Love. She’s his most well-known and longest-lasting girlfriend, being steady for several years in comic book time and in real life.* They had their problems, but overall their good moments definitely overshadows their bad ones (which were 70% caused by Batman anyways). They were great battle partners as well as domestic homebodies in their civilian life. Of all Tim’s girlfriends, she’s the only one that he has repeatedly acknowledged and confessed that he is in love with, and is most probably the only one he has ever really loved. (Verdict: I ship it!)

** 2015 update: As of the Convergence event, it showed that Tim and Steph got back together a year after the events in Steph’s Batgirl and the Red Robin run (if we are to take Convergence into canon preboot continuity). So, at the very least they got their ‘happy ending’ in the old universe.

URL:

http://fragileicicle.tumblr.com/post...love-interests


*EVEN with the N52, they are a couple... A Good and realist couple.. Steph was very sad after Tim "death"..*

----------


## millernumber1

> While not *un*true, I remind you that it's not just that I love CassSteph, but I'm actively against TimSteph. They've had nice moments together as a couple, but the relationship really does strike me as unhealthy, and the reason I'd find this funny is because, while they help make Tim who he is, it's *his* personality traits that make the relationship that way.


I mean, they're teenagers, and suffered through a lot of different writers in the Robin title. I think, in general, their trajectory under Dixon was headed towards healthy, though I do agree that him not telling her his name was incredibly annoying. But Dixon took active steps to fix that in the last 20 issues of his run, and when he brought her back, I think he was definitely trying to put them back together in a healthy way, but RIP/Reborn and him getting kicked off got in the way.




> Im not really a huge fan of TimSteph either. I never really saw much romantic chemistry between them. But then ive not read alot of the old stuff!


I recommend it! The new Robin reprints are well worth checking out, and, of course, the whole list of Steph's old stuff is on the Steph wiki!  :Smile: 




> the old stuff is great.





> DC comics in a nutshell.


Haha. So often true. Even though I'm a firm cheerleader for a lot of the new stuff since, well, Batman Eternal.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim Drake love interests:
> 
> *Stephanie Brown - Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl: Yin and Yang. His One True Love. She’s his most well-known and longest-lasting girlfriend, being steady for several years in comic book time and in real life.* They had their problems, but overall their good moments definitely overshadows their bad ones (which were 70% caused by Batman anyways). They were great battle partners as well as domestic homebodies in their civilian life. Of all Tim’s girlfriends, she’s the only one that he has repeatedly acknowledged and confessed that he is in love with, and is most probably the only one he has ever really loved. (Verdict: I ship it!)
> 
> ** 2015 update: As of the Convergence event, it showed that Tim and Steph got back together a year after the events in Steph’s Batgirl and the Red Robin run (if we are to take Convergence into canon preboot continuity). So, at the very least they got their ‘happy ending’ in the old universe.
> 
> URL:
> 
> http://fragileicicle.tumblr.com/post...love-interests
> ...


Good post - and I agree!  :Smile:

----------


## prettysunshine9

Also to be fair to Tim and Steph nearly all of the pressure put on them was the result of Bruce yoinking the two around with little consideration on their feelings on the matter.  Not allowing Tim to tell Steph his real name, he then told Steph without Tim's permission; he said he was fine with Tim and Stephanie being a couple but wanted Tim to disassociate himself from Spoiler as if that was even _possible_, then everything that happened with Stephanie becoming Robin including that one issue where Bruce stops Stephanie from meeting up with Tim to try and explain what is happening between them; Bruce uses Stephanie to manipulate Tim into being 'a better Robin' (cause it worked so well the first time) and so on... If left to their own devices they were perfectly sweet on each other and any problems that did crop up were entirely 'fixable' and par for the course for couples in their line of work.  The two are at their happiest the less Bruce is in the picture...which is sad but Bruce couldn't understand that Tim and Stephanie were Robin and Spoiler, like you couldn't cut Spoiler out of the picture without taking a massive chunk out of Tim and Steph's relationship.  I would say they as people and as a couple were never dysfunctional, the circumstances they got drawn into however were.  I think that's an important distinction to make.

----------


## millernumber1

> Also to be fair to Tim and Steph nearly all of the pressure put on them was the result of Bruce yoinking the two around with little consideration on their feelings on the matter.  Not allowing Tim to tell Steph his real name, he then told Steph without Tim's permission; he said he was fine with Tim and Stephanie being a couple but wanted Tim to disassociate himself from Spoiler as if that was even _possible_, then everything that happened with Stephanie becoming Robin including that one issue where Bruce stops Stephanie from meeting up with Tim to try and explain what is happening between them; Bruce uses Stephanie to manipulate Tim into being 'a better Robin' (cause it worked so well the first time) and so on... If left to their own devices they were perfectly sweet on each other and any problems that did crop up were entirely 'fixable' and par for the course for couples in their line of work.  The two are at their happiest the less Bruce is in the picture...which is sad but Bruce couldn't understand that Tim and Stephanie were Robin and Spoiler, like you couldn't cut Spoiler out of the picture without taking a massive chunk out of Tim and Steph's relationship.  I would say they as people and as a couple were never dysfunctional, the circumstances they got drawn into however were.  I think that's an important distinction to make.


Well said. Also to be fair, that's about four or five different writers, and an entire shift in editorial staff causing all that upheaval in one little Robin supporting character.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Also to be fair to Tim and Steph nearly all of the pressure put on them was the result of Bruce yoinking the two around with little consideration on their feelings on the matter.  Not allowing Tim to tell Steph his real name, he then told Steph without Tim's permission; he said he was fine with Tim and Stephanie being a couple but wanted Tim to disassociate himself from Spoiler as if that was even _possible_, then everything that happened with Stephanie becoming Robin including that one issue where Bruce stops Stephanie from meeting up with Tim to try and explain what is happening between them; Bruce uses Stephanie to manipulate Tim into being 'a better Robin' (cause it worked so well the first time) and so on... If left to their own devices they were perfectly sweet on each other and any problems that did crop up were entirely 'fixable' and par for the course for couples in their line of work.  The two are at their happiest the less Bruce is in the picture...which is sad but Bruce couldn't understand that Tim and Stephanie were Robin and Spoiler, like you couldn't cut Spoiler out of the picture without taking a massive chunk out of Tim and Steph's relationship.  I would say they as people and as a couple were never dysfunctional, the circumstances they got drawn into however were.  I think that's an important distinction to make.


Couldn't have been said any better

----------


## adrikito

> Good post - and I agree!


I found this place this week and I see this interesting and good for this discussion.

Is good see that this relation is SPECIAL as I imaginated in a few time.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Yeah.  Looking back most of the problems in their relationship were directly caused by Batman.  Then there was the terrible writing and weird out of character moments from the immediate leadup to War Games, where Tim for some reason stopped calling Steph for extended period even though he now had more free time than ever since being forced to quit being Robin.  It was bad enough what they did with Batman during War Games, but the entire story wouldn't have happened had Tim been written as a human being as well.  Teenage boys don't normally  forget their girlfriends exist the moment they have more time see them.  It amazes me how much bad writing was required just to get War Games going.

----------


## Moriarty

> Yeah.  Looking back most of the problems in their relationship were directly caused by Batman.  Then there was the terrible writing and weird out of character moments from the immediate leadup to War Games, where Tim for some reason stopped calling Steph for extended period even though he now had more free time than ever since being forced to quit being Robin.  It was bad enough what they did with Batman during War Games, but the entire story wouldn't have happened had Tim been written as a human being as well.  Teenage boys don't normally  forget their girlfriends exist the moment they have more time see them.  It amazes me how much bad writing was required just to get War Games going.


the less said about War Games the better.  so awful.

----------


## adrikito

I like this image is like one screenshot of one anime:

spoil.jpg

----------


## KrustyKid

> I like this image is like one screenshot of one anime:
> 
> spoil.jpg


It certainly does

----------


## Katana500

> I recommend it! The new Robin reprints are well worth checking out, and, of course, the whole list of Steph's old stuff is on the Steph wiki!


Awesome! I never knew their was a Steph Wiki! Im totally gonna look at it  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> I like this image is like one screenshot of one anime:
> 
> spoil.jpg


Ah, yes, the Batgirl #50 pin up page of Spoiler! It's a bit pastel for me, but that whole series had a pretty pastel coloring aesthetic.




> Awesome! I never knew their was a Steph Wiki! Im totally gonna look at it


Please do! Link is in my sig - let me know if you think there's something that would be helpful to change or add, too! And feel free to edit, as well, since it's open to anyone as are all good wikias!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Just found out that JT4 retweeted this lovely tweet: https://twitter.com/comickergirl/sta...01958253756416

Happy 25th Steph.jpg

It was two months late because the dates actually on a comic always are, but it's a really lovely image, and I'm so thrilled that JT is celebrating with us!

----------


## adrikito

> Just found out that JT4 retweeted this lovely tweet: https://twitter.com/comickergirl/sta...01958253756416
> 
> Happy 25th Steph.jpg
> 
> It was two months late because the dates actually on a comic always are, but it's a really lovely image, and I'm so thrilled that JT is celebrating with us!


I saw the same image recently... Is a good image of Steph life.

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw the same image recently... In Tumblr, I think..


Yup, it was posted there by the artist as well. I reblogged it with the info on the comic date, and they facepalmed, but it still amazing art!

----------


## millernumber1

For all the Steph fans here, there's a popularity contest over in the DC forum, and Steph's made it to the second to final round - she's up against a really awesome character, Mr. Terrific, making this the first really hard vote, but Steph won for me in the end. Hopefully more Steph fans will join me!  :Wink: 

http://community.comicbookresources....nament-Round-6

----------


## adrikito

> For all the Steph fans here, there's a popularity contest over in the DC forum, and Steph's made it to the second to final round - she's up against a really awesome character, Mr. Terrific, making this the first really hard vote, but Steph won for me in the end. Hopefully more Steph fans will join me! 
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....nament-Round-6


Thanks to you I voted... Sometimes I forget the tournament

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks to you I voted... Sometimes I forget the tournament


Hooray! I know the feeling - that's why I posted for Steph fans, since she's almost to the top spot!

----------


## Assam

Well, Bruce, Tim and Dick got wins a long time ago, and Cass and Damian got their wins in recent tournies, so I'd say its Steph's turn. I'm pretty sure she'll be able to overcome Bronze Tiger or Dove, so getting past Michael is really the big hurdle.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, Bruce, Tim and Dick got wins a long time ago, and Cass and Damian got their wins in recent tournies, so I'd say its Steph's turn. I'm pretty sure she'll be able to overcome Bronze Tiger or Dove, so getting past Michael is really the big hurdle.


Yeah. I was really torn on Mr. T - he's so great! But I have loved Steph for so long and so much...I had to go with my favorite in the end.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah. I was really torn on Mr. T - he's so great! But I have loved Steph for so long and so much...I had to go with my favorite in the end.


It wasn't a tough choice for me at all. Michael's great...but Steph's in my top 15, while he sits in the mid 80's.

----------


## millernumber1

> It wasn't a tough choice for me at all. Michael's great...but Steph's in my top 15, while he sits in the mid 80's.


Haha, wow, I don't really have the ability to pick rankings other than Steph at the top. Helena, Cass, etc - they're all shifting around depending one what I'm reading.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Haha, wow, I don't really have the ability to pick rankings other than Steph at the top. Helena, Cass, etc - they're all shifting around depending one what I'm reading.


Yeah, I've got a top 100 list. It moves around fairly often, but characters generally stay around certain areas. Thinking about expanding it to a top 200 when I have the time simply because of how many characters I love.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I've got a top 100 list. It moves around fairly often, but characters generally stay around certain areas. Thinking about expanding it to a top 200 when I have the time simply because of how many characters I love.


Mmm. Interesting. I should at least make a list of the characters I love. My guess is it's pretty small, actually. Like, under 50.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Mmm. Interesting. I should at least make a list of the characters I love. My guess is it's pretty small, actually. Like, under 50.


Well you do mostly stick to Gotham. Not that that's a bad thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well you do mostly stick to Gotham. Not that that's a bad thing.


I do. I can only handle about 2-4 titles a week before my brain overloads and I start dropping titles and losing interest in general.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Caivu

New Carmen Carnero art:

DG0SKM1UMAAvoF2.jpg large.jpg

----------


## Assam

> New Carmen Carnero art:
> 
> DG0SKM1UMAAvoF2.jpg large.jpg


Frick, I was just about to post this.

----------


## millernumber1

> New Carmen Carnero art:
> 
> DG0SKM1UMAAvoF2.jpg large.jpg


Oooh, nice!

I also hear that there's a chance she'll show up in Birds of Prey, which makes me super hopeful. I mean, I'm buying the book anyway, but Steph showing up is just gravy!

----------


## Assam

I'm not going to lie. Especially in comparison to her now being Cell Phone Girl, I really like my alternative idea that she center her fighting style around gimmick weapons (ex. her ice batarangs and gooperangs)

----------


## Caivu

Any guesses as to who the guys are? I can only think of ARGUS, since they're still in town, and it looks like they're in a damaged part of the city.

----------


## millernumber1

> Any guesses as to who the guys are? I can only think of ARGUS, since they're still in town, and it looks like they're in a damaged part of the city.


I can think of a couple:

More Scorns looking for revenge for when Steph humiliated them last time
Colony soldiers on the lookout for something Shadowy
National guard called out after the death of the mayor (this one's stretching, but it would be easily political, which I hope is not the case, but...)

----------


## Caivu

> I can think of a couple:
> 
> More Scorns looking for revenge for when Steph humiliated them last time
> Colony soldiers on the lookout for something Shadowy
> National guard called out after the death of the mayor (this one's stretching, but it would be easily political, which I hope is not the case, but...)


They don't look enough like Scorns or Colony (but there _have_ been instances of significant changes between the inking and final page...). If it's an "Anarky is against the government" thing or whatever, ARGUS would be a sensible target for him.

----------


## millernumber1

> They don't look enough like Scorns or Colony. If it's an "Anarky is against the government" thing or whatever, ARGUS would be a sensible target for him.


But why is Argus evil? Or is the fact that Anarky just hates the government even when it's helping going to be the plot?

----------


## Assam

> Or is the fact that Anarky just hates the government even when it's helping going to be the plot?


Please no.

----------


## millernumber1

> Please no.


Well, I hope not. But SOMETHING has to happen.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I hope not. But SOMETHING has to happen.


Honestly, as it approaches, I'm getting more and more worried. He's capable of writing stories with meat to them, and not having them be _entirely_ shallow, but Tynion's specialty (At least as far as his DC work goes; haven't read his creator owned stuff) is fun, popcorn action. I'm not sure if Tynion's writing is intelligent and strong enough on a base level to do Lonnie properly.

----------


## Caivu

> But why is Argus evil? Or is the fact that Anarky just hates the government even when it's helping going to be the plot?


They don't have to be evil. He just has to be opposed to them, and they _do_ still have a large portion of the city quarantined (for good reason). This is assuming that's even what's going on.

----------


## millernumber1

> Honestly, as it approaches, I'm getting more and more worried. He's capable of writing stories with meat to them, and not having them be _entirely_ shallow, but Tynion's specialty (At least as far as his DC work goes; haven't read his creator owned stuff) is fun, popcorn action. I'm not sure if Tynion's writing is intelligent and strong enough on a base level to do Lonnie properly.


Well, as a Steph partisan, I'm more than a bit cranky that Tynion seems to be farming Steph's story out to a...less solid writer. I mean, I'm all for helping fellow writers out and stuff, but...it feels really like Steph is a second class citizen in Tec.

On the other hand, I really did like what Sebela did in the last one-shot, and I LOVED Carmen Carnero's art. So...I just don't know.

I think Tynion and Sebela can't be much worse than Manapul and Buccelleto in their "Anarky" arc. That was...some weak sauce.




> They don't have to be evil. He just has to be opposed to them, and they _do_ still have a large portion of the city quarantined (for good reason). This is assuming that's even what's going on.


I'm just curious about what's going on.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

(Shrugs) I just assumed they were GCPD...

----------


## millernumber1

> (Shrugs) I just assumed they were GCPD...


That's possible. They don't have helmets, and they seem to have possible badges. Good call!

----------


## adrikito

> New Carmen Carnero art:
> 
> Attachment 52821


Thank you for the image.




> I also hear that* there's a chance she'll show up in Birds of Prey*, which makes me super hopeful. I mean, I'm buying the book anyway, but Steph showing up is just gravy!


She appeared in the previous Batgirl volume.. I see this possible..  *Source of this information?*

I heard that Gus is out and Babs is Oracle(two roles for her?), I will return with Birds of Prey soon.

----------


## millernumber1

> She appeared in the previous Batgirl volume.. I see this possible..  *Source of this information?*
> 
> I heard that Gus is out and Babs is Oracle(two roles for her?), I will return with Birds of Prey soon.


Someone in the most recent Birds of Prey thread says that one of the people who run the DC Instagram account did a livestream where they mentioned that Steph and Lois Lane would show up in Birds of Prey.

Gus does seem to have left, though he's not dead, and Babs is apparently taking on more of an Oracle role, but I don't think that's really going to be reflected in any other title, even though it totally should.

----------


## Assam

> Babs is apparently taking on more of an Oracle role, but I don't think that's really going to be reflected in any other title, even though it totally should.


On a scale from 1 to "I need to be put in a loony bin", how naive of it was for me to think for even a second of the possibility that during this upcoming storyline, Babs would tell Cass that since she's spending so much time as Oracle, there should be a second Batgirl out in the field more often? I'd say a solid 9.

----------


## Frontier

> Gus does seem to have left, though he's not dead, and Babs is apparently taking on more of an Oracle role, but I don't think that's really going to be reflected in any other title, even though it totally should.


Well, the Birds and Batgirl don't really pop up in other books that much so I'm not surprised if it isn't. 

And even if Babs is settling back into being Oracle, no one actually uses Oracle anymore so it probably won't change much.

----------


## millernumber1

> On a scale from 1 to "I need to be put in a loony bin", how naive of it was for me to think for even a second of the possibility that during this upcoming storyline, Babs would tell Cass that since she's spending so much time as Oracle, there should be a second Batgirl out in the field more often? I'd say a solid 9.


Until we have someone who's actually writing or editing for DC to publically say they love Steph and Cass AS BATGIRL, it's never going to happen. Everyone who's working for DC right now who has publically stated they love Steph and Cass specifically says they love them as an identity other than Batgirl. If there's no pressure interally to make them Batgirl, it's just not going to happen as long as the people at the top 1) Want the "iconic" Batgirl, and 2) dislike Steph and Cass.

----------


## Assam

> Until we have someone who's actually writing or editing for DC to publically say they love Steph and Cass AS BATGIRL, it's never going to happen. Everyone who's working for DC right now who has publically stated they love Steph and Cass specifically says they love them as an identity other than Batgirl. If there's no pressure interally to make them Batgirl, it's just not going to happen as long as the people at the top 1) Want the "iconic" Batgirl, and 2) dislike Steph and Cass.


I'm aware. Hence why I acknowledge the extreme naivety. (Although I'm not entirely sure how, unless they started reading comics with Rebirth, one can be a fan of Cass as anything BUT Batgirl)

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm aware. Hence why I acknowledge the extreme naivety. (Although I'm not entirely sure how, unless they started reading comics with Rebirth, one can be a fan of Cass as anything BUT Batgirl)


Very true. I would be really, really curious to know what it's like being a fan of Cass as Orphan. I know there's fans of Steph as Spoiler from Batman Eternal onwards, which is still weird to me, but I've talked to them, and they're pretty cool.  :Smile:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I'm aware. Hence why I acknowledge the extreme naivety. (Although I'm not entirely sure how, unless they started reading comics with Rebirth, one can be a fan of Cass as anything BUT Batgirl)


But that doesn't mean Cass has to be written as Batgirl again. That's just very short sighted and would just create more future problems and confusion (legacy characters don't last very long). She just needs to carve an identity that's very much her own.

Stephanie's identity as Spoiler is so tied to her that I don't see anyone would be able to replace her without her personality and backstory.

----------


## adrikito

> Someone in the most recent Birds of Prey thread says that one of the people who run the DC Instagram account did a livestream where they mentioned that Steph and Lois Lane would show up in Birds of Prey.


I can understand Vicky Vale but.... Lois Lane?  :Confused:   :Confused:  It doesn´t matter.. No problem.

----------


## Assam

> Very true. I would be really, really curious to know what it's like being a fan of Cass as Orphan.


I do agree with certain fans that currentCass still doesn't compare to classicCass in terms of greatness, but that's just  because she still hasn't been given enough time to show off all her complex traits, and Tynion simply isn't as strong a writer as those who worked on Cass's book. There's nothing explicitly wrong  characterization wise with currentCass, but she certainly wouldn't be my favorite character if she was the only version I knew of. 

That said, while I'm sure there are plenty of fans of Cass as Orphan, as we've discussed before, I don't think anyone actually likes the Orphan name. That name needs to die a fiery painful death. Outside of professional reviews, I've seen people use the Orphan name two or three times over the last year+. Everyone on social media either calls her Cass, Batgirl, Black Bat, or Fitemuffin. (For the record, even Fitemuffin is a better name than Orphan.)

----------


## Assam

> But that doesn't mean Cass has to be written as Batgirl again. That's just very short sighted and would just create more future problems and confusion (legacy characters don't last very long). She just needs to carve an identity that's very much her own.


I agree. Personally, I'd be okay if she went the Jean Grey route and went without a codename. However, ANYTHING is better than Orphan, including Batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

> But that doesn't mean Cass has to be written as Batgirl again. That's just very short sighted and would just create more future problems and confusion (legacy characters don't last very long). She just needs to carve an identity that's very much her own.
> 
> Stephanie's identity as Spoiler is so tied to her that I don't see anyone would be able to replace her without her personality and backstory.


Cass lasted for almost a decade, almost 7 of which she had a solo titled Batgirl...

Tim and Damian are both legacies, and both are still around...

I don't understand your argument.




> I can understand Vicky Vale but.... Lois Lane? It doesn´t matter.. No problem.


I would LOVE to see Vicki again after Batman Eternal, but she hasn't been seen since then (2 years ago...I miss you, Gotham's fake Lois Lane...  :Wink:  )  I think it's because Lois is super popular and everyone loves her. And I don't disagree - Lois is awesome!




> I do agree with certain fans that currentCass still doesn't compare to classicCass in terms of greatness, but that's just  because she still hasn't been given enough time to show off all her complex traits, and Tynion simply isn't as strong a writer as those who worked on Cass's book. There's nothing explicitly wrong  characterization wise with currentCass, but she certainly wouldn't be my favorite character if she was the only version I knew of. 
> 
> That said, while I'm sure there are plenty of fans of Cass as Orphan, as we've discussed before, I don't think anyone actually likes the Orphan name. That name needs to die a fiery painful death. Outside of professional reviews, I've seen people use the Orphan name two or three times over the last year+. Everyone on social media either calls her Cass, Black Bat, or Fitemuffin. (For the record, even Fitemuffin is a better name than Orphan.)


It is true that I do not call Cass Orphan. However, see below.




> I agree. Personally, I'd be okay if she went the Jean Grey route and went without a codename. However, ANYTHING is better than Orphan, including Batgirl.


Well, I personally believe that Signal is worse.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Tim and Damian are both legacies, and both are still around...


One doesn't go by Robin, they're both guys, and DC is sexist. 




> Well, I personally believe that Signal is worse.


I disagree, but I think Tim is just happy there are now multiple codenames in the family objectively worse than Red Robin (Which I personally like)

----------


## millernumber1

> One doesn't go by Robin, they're both guys, and DC is sexist. 
> 
> I disagree, but I think Tim is just happy there are now multiple codenames in the family objectively worse than Red Robin (Which I personally like)


I still think the argument doesn't make sense.

I really hate Signal as a name. It's incredibly impersonal - it's literally a giant flashlight. Furthermore, it was actually given by the freaking Joker. I don't care if you hate the n52 David Cain, having Cass's name connected to him isn't as bad as being named by the literal devil of Batman's world.  I still don't get why there was such a big deal about Red Robin, or Lobdell's silly retcon about the name. The real problem was that Tim didn't act like Tim, and under Tynion, he acts like the Tim I remember and love.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Cass lasted for almost a decade, almost 7 of which she had a solo titled Batgirl...
> 
> Tim and Damian are both legacies, and both are still around...


And then Tim became Red Robin, Cass stole a name from a pulp hero... Which would eventually happen again even if either would become Robin/Batgirl again.

----------


## millernumber1

> And then Tim became Red Robin, Cass stole a name from a pulp hero... Which would eventually happen again even if either would become Robin/Batgirl again.


What exactly is your point? That people should never create new characters who take on legacies because only the originals are any good?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> What exactly is your point? That people should never create new characters who take on legacies because only the originals are any good?


No, what I mean is they don't have to go back to their legacy titles after their basic characteristics have been established.

----------


## millernumber1

> No, what I mean is they don't have to go back to their legacy titles after their basic characteristics have been established.


I have heard that before. But what does that mean for your perspective on Cass and Steph's Batgirl titles?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I have heard that before. But what does that mean for your perspective on Cass and Steph's Batgirl titles?


Besides I loved Cass' and Steph's Batgirl runs? But I don't feel the need to go that path again. Cass may be my favorite character but damn I love Steph as the Spoiler. It's just so... Steph. And I wish Cass gained an identity that was as unique to her.

----------


## millernumber1

> Besides I loved Cass' and Steph's Batgirl runs? But I don't feel the need to go that path again. Cass may be my favorite character but damn I love Steph as the Spoiler. It's just so... Steph. And I wish Cass gained an identity that was as unique to her.


Interesting. Do you think that Steph as Spoiler could achieve the same level of respect, both in and out of universe, as she did as Batgirl?

----------


## adrikito

> That said, while I'm sure there are plenty of fans of Cass as Orphan, as we've discussed before, I don't think anyone actually likes the Orphan name. That name needs to die a fiery painful death. Outside of professional reviews, I've seen people use the Orphan name two or three times over the last year+. Everyone on social media either calls her Cass, Batgirl, Black Bat, or Fitemuffin. (For the record, even Fitemuffin is a better name than Orphan.)


I call her Cass... I never used Orphan name.

Fitemuffin??

----------


## millernumber1

> I call her Cass... I never used Orphan name.
> 
> Fitemuffin??


Smol and cute like a muffin, and can fite (fight) ANYBODY!

----------


## Assam

> Interesting. Do you think that Steph as Spoiler could achieve the same level of respect, both in and out of universe, as she did as Batgirl?


I do, if written in that way. I don't even think my bias of preferring Steph as Spoiler has anything to do with it. Any character can get to any level of respect in and out of universe if pushed in the right way.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Interesting. Do you think that Steph as Spoiler could achieve the same level of respect, both in and out of universe, as she did as Batgirl?


Yes, I think there's potential for even more but it is always down to writers and editorial to make it happen. I mean her name is already pretty "memetic"; pictures of her are used as a spoiler tag on some messageboards so as far  as recognition that's almost like marketing campaign in itself and DC needs to realize that. It wouldn't work if it was some super serious and broody character, but because it's Steph (I mean her costume is eggplant because purple would have looked STUPID) it works.

----------


## millernumber1

> I do, if written in that way. I don't even think my bias of preferring Steph as Spoiler has anything to do with it. Any character can get to any level of respect in and out of universe if pushed in the right way.


Hmm. I have difficulty seeing it happen in the past 30 years. Except for maybe Red Hood.




> Yes, I think there's potential for even more but it is always down to writers and editorial to make it happen. I mean her name is already pretty "memetic"; pictures of her are used as a spoiler tag on some messageboards so as far  as recognition that's almost like marketing campaign in itself and DC needs to realize that. It wouldn't work if it was some super serious and broody character, but because it's Steph (I mean her costume is eggplant because purple would have looked STUPID) it works.


I think DC needs to do that promotion, though. One of the reasons I'm currently a bit frustrated with Tynion, for all that I love most of what he's doing, is that he's farming Steph out to a new writer.

----------


## adrikito

> Interesting. Do you think that Steph as Spoiler could achieve the same level of respect, both in and out of universe, as she did as Batgirl?


The batgirl time is over but.... She will be in more famous thanks to Young Justice.. More people will know her, more fans...  

I was impressed when I knew that(Steph a previous batgirl), so, other people will respect her for that fact.




> Smol and cute like a muffin, and can fite (fight) ANYBODY!


Ok..

----------


## millernumber1

> The batgirl time is over but.... She will be in Young Justice, this is something good for her.. More people will know her, more fans.


It's only the end if you want it to be.

I don't.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> The batgirl time is over


Replace Orphan with literally anything else and resotre their time _as_ Batgirl, and I'll be satisfied...somewhat, there are still other issues with CurrentCass. 




> She will be in more famous thanks to Young Justice.. More people will know her, more fans.


I really wish I could be more happy for Steph, I really do. I've tried, but...I just can't.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Replace Orphan with literally anything else and resotre their time _as_ Batgirl, and I'll be satisfied...somewhat, there are still other issues with CurrentCass. 
> 
> I really wish I could be more happy for Steph, I really do. I've tried, but...I just can't.


It's okay. I feel the same way about Cass getting to guest in all these titles while Steph is exiled (self-exiled or not).

----------


## Assam

> It's okay. I feel the same way about Cass getting to guest in all these titles while Steph is exiled (self-exiled or not).


Eh. I personally don't feel FINALLY getting to appear in a popular animated series is comparable to a few guest spots where, more likely than not, Cass won't do much, much as I have high hopes for her forming a dynamic with Jason.

----------


## adrikito

> Replace Orphan with literally anything else and resotre their time _as_ Batgirl, and I'll be satisfied...somewhat, there are still other issues with CurrentCass. 
> 
> I really wish I could be more happy for Steph, I really do. I've tried, but...I just can't.


With David Cain return maybe she change that name..


Despite the Black Bat name.. Look spoiler, is using her current costume...... Maybe was a bad moment for add Cass in YJ with Orphan name existence..

----------


## millernumber1

> Eh. I personally don't feel FINALLY getting to appear in a popular animated series is comparable to a few guest spots where, more likely than not, Cass won't do much, much as I have high hopes for her forming a dynamic with Jason.


Not saying I'm being rational. Just saying I'm frustrated.




> With David Cain return maybe she change that name..


Wait, did we hear something about Cain returning?

----------


## adrikito

> Wait, did we hear something about Cain returning?


..... I don´t know... For one moment I thought that he will be in League of Shadows but nothing..

I doubt that he will be dead forever.

*Maybe we should continue this conversation in Cassandra Cain appreciation...*

----------


## millernumber1

> ..... I don´t know... For one moment I thought that he will be in League of Shadows but nothing..
> 
> I doubt that he will be dead forever.
> 
> *Maybe we should continue this conversation in Cassandra Cain appreciation...*


I mean, you're probably right. I fully expect to see Cluemaster and David Cain again. Just probably not for at least another few years (I think 2019 is the first I would actually expect any of them in the current continuity. I mean, Cluemaster is in War of Jokes and Riddles, but that's a flashback).

----------


## adrikito

> I mean, you're probably right. I fully expect to see Cluemaster and David Cain again. Just probably not for at least another few years (I think 2019 is the first I would actually expect any of them in the current continuity. I mean, Cluemaster is in War of Jokes and Riddles, but that's a flashback).


I am not an expert but.... 

I heard about Superboy Prime powers (thanks to him Jason is alive) and I think that something like Superman Reborn(the fusion of two continuities) can change many things in some way... Maybe Cluemaster is now in coma and in two years he returns..

About Cain... I forget what happen.. But if Batman can fool the death... One expert assassin can made the same... Or receive help of somebody, like Al Ghul..

----------


## millernumber1

> I am not an expert but.... 
> 
> I heard about Superboy Prime powers (thanks to him Jason is alive) and I think that something like Superman Reborn(the fusion of two continuities) can change many things in some way... Maybe Cluemaster is now in coma and in two years he returns..


Well, there are lots of ways they could come back. But I really, really don't want another Lincoln March or Black Mask situation, where a villain is "dealt with" and then comes back almost literally next month. That's the absolute worst.

We'll have to see how Lonely Place of Living and Doomsday Clock shape up!

----------


## Caivu

> For all the Steph fans here, there's a popularity contest over in the DC forum, and Steph's made it to the second to final round - she's up against a really awesome character, Mr. Terrific, making this the first really hard vote, but Steph won for me in the end. Hopefully more Steph fans will join me!


She made it to the final:

http://community.comicbookresources....urnament-Final

----------


## millernumber1

> She made it to the final:
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....urnament-Final


Hooray! Let's make our Steph proud!

----------


## Assam

> Hooray! Let's make our Steph proud!


Man, Steph has so much in common with her opponent: 

never not funny.jpg

cass tiger uppercut.jpg

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> Man, Steph has so much in common with her opponent: 
> 
> never not funny.jpg
> 
> cass tiger uppercut.jpg


The 2nd image.. is a young cass?

----------


## Assam

> The 2nd image is a young cass?


That is correct.

----------


## Sardorim

Wrong topic

----------


## adrikito

I saw this in Tumblr like another images of HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEPH..The 25th Steph anniversary, no?

steph spoiler.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw this in Tumblr like another images of HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEPH..The 25th Steph anniversary, no?
> 
> steph spoiler.jpg


No, that was back in June. The birthday is something probably from a profile in secret files or something.

----------


## Assam

> Attachment 52973
> 
> Each one was added by a different person with their own derogatory comment. This is not the first time this scene has been ridiculed, nor should it ever stop being ridiculed, because you KNOW there are some people out there who WOULD like the BatFam to be just the characters drawn in that panel. I don't care about King's run at all, but this seriously got under my skin.


10characters

----------


## Aahz

> No, that was back in June. The birthday is something probably from a profile in secret files or something.


I'm pretty sure that DC never published Steph's Birthday.

The offical Birthdays afiak are (in the main continuity comics):
-Bruce: April 7th, February 19th or June 2nd
-Dick: March 10th,  November 11th, in the week before Halloween or March 21st
-Jason: August 26th 
-Tim: July 19th
-Barbara: September 23th
-Cassandra: January 26th
-Selina: March 14th
-Alfred: April 8th, December 7th or on the date as Superman's Rocket landed on Earth (I don't know if that day is given somewhere)
-James Gordon: January 5th or November 29th
-Helena Wayne: September 7th

----------


## Assam

Steph won the popularity tournament. WOOH!

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph won the popularity tournament. WOOH!


Hooray! Thanks to everyone who voted!  :Smile:

----------


## KrustyKid

Just finished putting this one together,

----------


## Assam

> Just finished putting this one together,


Nice work! 

Been thinking of making some comic AMVs for awhile. Got plenty of scans on my computer and I've been itching to edit something again for awhile. 

Out of curiously, what editing software do you use?

----------


## Frontier

I just realized Steph is to the Batgirls what Tim was to the Robins. 

Agree/Disagree? 

I also think Cassandra is the Damian of the Batgirls.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just realized Steph is to the Batgirls what Tim was to the Robins. 
> 
> Agree/Disagree? 
> 
> I also think Cassandra is the Damian of the Batgirls.


Could you elaborate? Steph is the third Batgirl as Tim is third Robin, but her history is much different than Tim's in terms of Batgirl. They're both self-starting vigilantes, but I don't see much else?

I think it's more accurate to say Damian is the Cassandra of the Robins.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Could you elaborate? Steph is the third Batgirl as Tim is third Robin, but her history is much different than Tim's in terms of Batgirl. They're both self-starting vigilantes, but I don't see much else?
> 
> I think it's more accurate to say Damian is the Cassandra of the Robins.


Just in that she basically reconstructed the identity she took up and harkened back to the more classic and traditional version of that identity but in a modern context. 

It's even reflected in her costume or look which had the most iconic Batgirl colors (black, purple, and yellow) on-top of her hair coming out of the cowl like Babs' did.

And that's probably spot on about Cass/Damian  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Just finished putting this one together,


Really cute - thanks so much for sharing!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Just in that she basically reconstructed the identity she took up and harkened back to the more classic and traditional version of that identity but in a modern context. 
> 
> It's even reflected in her costume or look which had the most iconic Batgirl colors (black, purple, and yellow) on-top of her hair showing through the cowl like Babs' did.
> 
> And that's probably spot on about Cass .


That makes sense - Steph hearkening back to Babs as Tim hearkened back to Dick. Still, I think Steph was still very much her own character - it was more a tonal rather than character thing (as was Tim).

----------


## Frontier

> That makes sense - Steph hearkening back to Babs as Tim hearkened back to Dick. Still, I think Steph was still very much her own character - it was more a tonal rather than character thing (as was Tim).


Exactly  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

I think there are a few different ways the parallels can be drawn: 

Dick and Babs: The Originals, Tim and Steph: The self-made teen heroes, and Cass and Jason: Counterparts rather than parallels, both completely devoted to opposing ideologies. 

Dick and Steph: The Heart, Cass and Jason: The Spirit, Babs and Tim: The Brain 

Tim can also be Cass's counterpart as the representative of that era and Damian can be her counterpart as the one trained to be an assassin. etc

----------


## KrustyKid

> Nice work! 
> 
> Been thinking of making some comic AMVs for awhile. Got plenty of scans on my computer and I've been itching to edit something again for awhile. 
> 
> Out of curiously, what editing software do you use?


A combination of AE, Power-Director, and AVS Video Editor. I do a lot of bouncing around between the three.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I think there are a few different ways the parallels can be drawn: 
> 
> Dick and Babs: The Originals, Tim and Steph: The self-made teen heroes, and Cass and Jason: Counterparts rather than parallels, both completely devoted to opposing ideologies. 
> 
> Dick and Steph: The Heart, Cass and Jason: The Spirit, Babs and Tim: The Brain 
> 
> Tim can also be Cass's counterpart as the representative of that era and Damian can be her counterpart as the one trained to be an assassin. etc


This is a great way of putting it.

----------


## Assam

> A combination of AE, Power-Director, and AVS Video Editor. I do a lot of bouncing around between the three.


Neat. I've made most of my videos and short films on Adobe Premiere.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Neat. I've made most of my videos and short films on Adobe Premiere.


Nice, I've actually done some shorts myself. Never knew you were into the video stuff, if you've got anything up I'd definitely check it out.

----------


## Assam

> Nice, I've actually done some shorts myself. Never knew you were into the video stuff, if you've got anything up I'd definitely check it out.


When I was younger, I made a large number of quite embarrassing videos about various topics.  Besides my short films, some of which are simply educational and the ones that aren't, for legal reasons, I'm not allowed to put on youtube, there are really only two videos I'm proud of. A literary analysis of Cave Story and an analysis of why Bayonetta is excellent role-model. Interested in either of those?

EDIt: Scratch that, the Bayonetta one is the only good one. (My acting sort of kills the first one)

----------


## KrustyKid

> When I was younger, I made a large number of quite embarrassing videos about various topics.  Besides my short films, some of which are simply educational and the ones that aren't, for legal reasons, I'm not allowed to put on youtube, there are really only two videos I'm proud of. A literary analysis of Cave Story and an analysis of why Bayonetta is excellent role-model. Interested in either of those?
> 
> EDIt: Scratch that, the Bayonetta one is the only good one. (My acting sort of kills the first one)


Lol.

Sure. You have a channel?

----------


## adrikito

> Steph won the popularity tournament. WOOH!


I AM HAPPY FOR HEARD THIS  :Cool:   :Smile:   :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

Thanks to the *World's Biggest Cassandra Cain Fan
*



> Attachment 53061


good image.. No?

----------


## millernumber1

Oh, man, that's amazing! That artist has a bunch of pretty cool stuff here - https://rickcelis.deviantart.com/gallery/ - I'll have to see if there's more Steph stuff!

----------


## adrikito

> Oh, man, that's amazing! That artist has a bunch of pretty cool stuff here - https://rickcelis.deviantart.com/gallery/ - I'll have to see if there's more Steph stuff!


Oh, deviantart... I am here too.

----------


## Red obin

I saw his batman 28 thing recently and really like his rebirth one!

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, deviantart... I am here too.


Really? Any good Steph pics?  :Smile: 




> I saw his batman 28 thing recently and really like his rebirth one!


I love his series of Capullo Batman covers from the n52 in the BTAS style. That's really fun.

----------


## adrikito

> Really? Any good Steph pics? .


I am in Stephanie Brown fanclub, I put some images here and in the club.

https://stephaniebrownfc.deviantart.com/

Steph Batgirl(very old image, the first comment was in 2012) with the name *Primetime-Warrior*:

stephanie brown batgirl.jpg

https://stephaniebrownfc.deviantart....rior-334860155

----------


## millernumber1

> I am in Stephanie Brown fanclub, I put some images here and in the club.
> 
> https://stephaniebrownfc.deviantart.com/


Awesome! I'll have to spend some time there!

----------


## adrikito

Of Reddit:

batgirl stephanie brown.jpg

With these images... I want this again... Maybe is *Convergence Batgirl* collateral damage in my mind too..

But then I remember that with Steph as Spoiler I have enough... I only want Steph existence.

----------


## millernumber1

> Of Reddit:
> 
> batgirl stephanie brown.jpg
> 
> With these images... I want this again... Maybe is *Convergence Batgirl* collateral damage in my mind too..
> 
> But then I remember that with Steph as Spoiler I have enough... I only want Steph existence.


Steph existing: Priceless

Steph as Batgirl: More Priceless

Steph as Robin: The Most Priceless!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

I always felt as though the grey ghost's death in Steph's batgirl run was weird and finally strange. What are all your opinions?

----------


## millernumber1

> I always felt as though the grey ghost's death in Steph's batgirl run was weird and finally strange. What are all your opinions?


I agree - I think the last two issues of Batgirl are where you really start seeing the compression of the n52 coming up. BQM had enough time to at least wrap up the main plot threads, but much more quickly than I think he would have if he hadn't been forced to end.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## millernumber1

> 


I love that pic. So cute, and the way each identity of Steph's manifests in her expression is perfect!

----------


## CPSparkles

> I love that pic. So cute, and the way each identity of Steph's manifests in her expression is perfect!


I know right. I thought the exact same thing when I saw it

----------


## Chickfighter

> I agree - I think the last two issues of Batgirl are where you really start seeing the compression of the n52 coming up. BQM had enough time to at least wrap up the main plot threads, but much more quickly than I think he would have if he hadn't been forced to end.


Yes, I'm pretty sure I recall him saying as much in an interview at the time. And there was the whole Batman Inc trip to work in as well.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, I'm pretty sure I recall him saying as much in an interview at the time. And there was the whole Batman Inc trip to work in as well.


Which was great - even though Grant Morrison needed to step on the gas and get Steph's issue out much more quickly. But yes, it did throw a wrench into the ongoing plot just as it heated up.

----------


## adrikito

> 


Very Funny.

----------


## millernumber1

> Attachment 53177
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #968
> 
> Written by JAMES TYNION IV
> Art by ALVARO MARTINEZ and RAUL FERNANDEZ
> Cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
> JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by CULLY HAMNER
> 
> ...


We have confirmation that Steph will interact with the team again during the Lonely Place of Living arc! This is fantastic news!

----------


## Red obin

- the display case bit....

----------


## millernumber1

> - the display case bit....


rage!!!!!!!

----------


## Frontier

> - the display case bit....


Unintentional Foreshadowing (and probably a decent attempt at talking anyone out of being a vigilante in Gotham)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

Trying to talk out Steph of vigilantism should be a crime, a war crime :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Trying to talk out Steph of vigilantism should be a crime, a war crime


I'm strangely confused in how to respond to this.  :Smile:

----------


## Nick Miller

Did anyone get the new StephnBatgirl trade?

----------


## millernumber1

> Did anyone get the new StephnBatgirl trade?


I was dumb and forgot to look at my comic shop today. I might go by again tomorrow, since I want to order something. I'm planning on getting it next week digitally, though, since I already have it hard copy with the old trades.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I was dumb and forgot to look at my comic shop today. I might go by again tomorrow, since I want to order something. I'm planning on getting it next week digitally, though, since I already have it hard copy with the old trades.


I jumped on late and could never get the first trade! It was going for over 30 dollars if I recall.

I had to hold off today, because I was spending way too much on singles ($60).

----------


## millernumber1

> I jumped on late and could never get the first trade! It was going for over 30 dollars if I recall.
> 
> I had to hold off today, because I was spending way too much on singles ($60).


Wow! I spent about 40, which is about 4 times as much as I usually buy (it was back issues). But I hope it's as bootiful as I dream!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Wow! I spent about 40, which is about 4 times as much as I usually buy (it was back issues). But I hope it's as bootiful as I dream!


If it's as nicely done as the Cass fat trades have been, you're in for a treat.

----------


## millernumber1

> If it's as nicely done as the Cass fat trades have been, you're in for a treat.


I really, really hope so. Part of me just wants to burn some money and buy all of the Batgirl things, so I can have Cass and Steph sitting next to each other on my shelf.  :Smile:  MUST RESIST!

----------


## AJpyro

Gonna get the last Cass trade while getting Steph's first. Gonna be a night of good reading.

----------


## millernumber1

> Gonna get the last Cass trade while getting Steph's first. Gonna be a night of good reading.


That is an AWESOME plan! Pics?  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Gonna get the last Cass trade while getting Steph's first. Gonna be a night of good reading.


One trade that showcases the most beautiful relationships in comics...and another that betrays them. 

Hopefully you'll be able to enjoy both trades (_Death Wish_ may have wrapped up in Cass's 2nd trade, but Puckett kept up the high quality for his final stretch) but there's no way I could personally enjoy reading Steph's Batgirl book immediately after any of Cass's.

----------


## millernumber1

> One trade that showcases the most beautiful relationships in comics...and another that betrays them. 
> 
> Hopefully you'll be able to enjoy both trades (_Death Wish_ may have wrapped up in Cass's 2nd trade, but Puckett didn't slow down at all for his final stretch) but there's no way I could personally enjoy reading Steph's Batgirl book immediately after any of Cass's.


Fair enough, but this is still a Steph appreciation thread.

----------


## Assam

> Fair enough, but this is still a Steph appreciation thread.


And I'm not dissing Steph. Her appearances in Cass's book are _why_ I love the character as much as I do, Batgirl #26 as I've mentioned being my favorite solo Steph adventure. And in that comment, I praised her and Cass's relationship (Along with Cass's and Babs') as being the most beautiful relationships in comics.  

If knocking stories that aren't up to snuff for characters we love wasn't allowed on Appreciation Threads, I imagine good chunks of every Bat Fam member's threads would have to be deleted. (And even then, you KNOW I don't even hate Steph's Batgirl book as a whole, and still enjoy it on its own mertis.)

EDIT: Coincidence of all coincidences, this just got posted on Twitter. 

concincidence.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> And I'm not dissing Steph. Her appearances in Cass's book are _why_ I love the character as much as I do, Batgirl #26 as I've mentioned being my favorite solo Steph adventure. And in that comment, I praised her and Cass's relationship (Along with Cass's and Babs') as being the most beautiful relationships in comics.  
> 
> If knocking stories that aren't up to snuff for characters we love wasn't allowed on Appreciation Threads, I imagine good chunks of every Bat Fam member's threads would have to be deleted. (And even then, you KNOW I don't even hate Steph's Batgirl book as a whole, and still enjoy it on its own mertis.)


S'why I said fair enough. Just don't think the context of the conversation was super appropriate - it felt very much like a conversation killer. It's why I try not to bring up my hatred of Cass knocking Steph out too much (and if I do it in a way you think is killing the conversation, I would expect anyone to nudge me as well).

If we were talking about the Batgirl run in general, analyzing bits, I'd say your response was totally appropriate. But when we're talking about how excited we are to buy and read about both Cass and Steph, it felt a lot like cold water on happiness.

----------


## Assam

> If we were talking about the Batgirl run in general, analyzing bits, I'd say your response was totally appropriate. But when we're talking about how excited we are to buy and read about both Cass and Steph, it felt a lot like cold water on happiness.


Totally fair. My Autism makes it hard for me to "read the room" IRL a lot of the time, and I can have even more trouble with text. Apologies.

----------


## millernumber1

> Totally fair. My Autism makes it hard for me to "read the room" IRL a lot of the time, and I can have even more trouble with text. Apologies.


Thanks - and please, I don't want you to feel unwelcome at all. I apologize for the abruptness of my first post - I should have taken a bit more time with it.

----------


## Assam

> Thanks - and please, I don't want you to feel unwelcome at all. I apologize for the abruptness of my first post - I should have taken a bit more time with it.


It's all good.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

:Frown:  no Steph batgirl trade for at least two weeks over here since amazon UK has very slow releases. Hopefully I can get it in a book store next week as they often get it earlier. Sadly I have no comics stores around me.

----------


## Red obin

> rage!!!!!!!


To be fair the display case bit didn't anger me as much as the way they retconned it with batman's lame excuse. He could have said he gave the costume to Chrystal or had a secret room with other fallen hero's costumes. Anything is btter than 'well she could have not died maybe.'

----------


## millernumber1

> no Steph batgirl trade for at least two weeks over here since amazon UK has very slow releases. Hopefully I can get it in a book store next week as they often get it earlier. Sadly I have no comics stores around me.


Well, amazon US doesn't get it for another week too. For some reason, they're trying to boost LCS sales by giving it to them a week early - this is a trend for most trades these days. But if you don't have an LCS, then it's definitely not up for another week (the 22nd) - digitally, either.




> To be fair the display case bit didn't anger me as much as the way they retconned it with batman's lame excuse. He could have said he gave the costume to Chrystal or had a secret room with other fallen hero's costumes. Anything is btter than 'well she could have not died maybe.'


I don't mind Dixon's retcon of why there's no case, because it was clearly Dixon trying to salvage Batman's character for decisions he disagreed with. However, it's a retcon covering a really egregious 4 years of silence and disrespect by editors. Grant Morrison did a little bit to rectify it in Batman's hallucinations during the lead-up to RIP, but other than Morrison and Dixon, everyone ignored Steph and hoped her fans would go away.

We didn't.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

SPOILER IN BIRDS OF PREY 16 COVER/ALTERNATIVE COVER..

BGBOP_Cv16.jpg

Our book is fun because we start to piece it together in #15, but at the top of #16, you’re going to get this amazing double page spread that shows every single character. That includes all the BOP: Batgirl, Canary, Huntress, Catwoman, and Ivy. We’re also pulling in Harley Quinn for some Siren action. 

We’re getting the Detective team: Batwoman, Orphan,* and Spoiler’s come back, even though she’s not so happy with the team in that book.* Wonder Woman. Lois Lane is in town. Amanda Waller will fly in to deal with this situation.


http://www.comicosity.com/interview-...-manslaughter/

----------


## millernumber1

> SPOILER IN BIRDS OF PREY 16 COVER/ALTERNATIVE COVER..
> 
> BGBOP_Cv16.jpg
> 
> http://www.comicosity.com/interview-...-manslaughter/


NOT A DRILL. THIS IS EVERYTHING I DREAMED ABOUT! Woohoo!

----------


## adrikito

> NOT A DRILL. THIS IS EVERYTHING I DREAMED ABOUT! Woohoo!


I found this thanks to* Last Son of Krypton* link, after read one interviewabout Doomsday clock I found this recent interview.

What a shame that Steph is not happy with this..  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> I found this thanks to* Last Son of Krypton* link, after read one interviewabout Doomsday clock I found this recent interview.
> 
> What a shame that Steph is not happy with this..


I'm okay with Steph not being happy as long as she's included!  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> I'm okay with Steph not being happy as long as she's included!


I imaginated this better with the *Spoiler Post-Tim return*, but good..

Barbara is trying to make of Oracle and batgirl according the interview(something that we all imaginated)... What a shame that we can´t return with the Steph Batgirl with Barbara as Oracle again..

----------


## millernumber1

> I imaginated this better with the *Spoiler Post-Tim return*, but good..
> 
> Barbara is trying to make of Oracle and batgirl according the interview(something that we all imaginated)... What a shame that we can´t return with the Steph Batgirl with Barbara as Oracle again..


Well, as long as she's getting to hang out with Cass and being included in crossovers, I'm thrilled.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

T0 start with the positive: YAY! Steph isn't being excluded!  :Smile:  

On the other hand, this is going just as I feared. *12* characters. 12 characters in a single arc, where we all know the focus is still going to be on the Birds. 

And like, I get the appeal for having most of them. Having The Birds, The Sirens, and the ladies of 'Tec all in one big team up? Makes sense. But why the Hell are Lois, Diana and *Claire(!)* there? In universe, why would they even need anyone else if they have Diana and Claire? Why would you need a reporter and a psycho with a bat when you've got two people who can trade blows with Superman? And besides the potential power gap issue and how cramped I foresee these issues being, I think Claire is what really urks me. Love them or hate them, the other 11 characters here have long (to different extents) and rich histories, and MASSIVE fanbases. (Again, to different extents) Claire kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. And I've got no problem with the idea of a rookie standing alongside vets, but here, she really feels out of place to me. (And I also get the feeling she won't be acknowledged as the rookie) 

On the brighter side though, something I just realized? In addition to this issue being the first time CurrentCass is meeting Babs, this will be the first time since Cass's solo that all three Batgirls will be in the same room together. (Although considering this is FakeBabs, does it count?  :Stick Out Tongue:  )

----------


## adrikito

> T0 start with the positive: YAY! Steph isn't being excluded!


Something unexpected, she is out of the team... however, she was in one adventure in the previous batgirl volume... Is not crazy put her again here for this adventure.

Harley is here because the Gotham sirens are here, is mentioned in the interview.. and she is popular.. With Gotham Girl here, two crazy characters... Harley will love her.. 

This count if.. Oracle role change the character again(more serious, burnside effects disappearing from her), in this case she will be Barbara Gordon again not.. Batgirl of Burnside, I was shocked the first time that I see her like that..

----------


## millernumber1

> T0 start with the positive: YAY! Steph isn't being excluded!  
> 
> On the other hand, this is going just as I feared. *12* characters. 12 characters in a single arc, where we all know the focus is still going to be on the Birds. 
> 
> And like, I get the appeal for having most of them. Having The Birds, The Sirens, and the ladies of 'Tec all in one big team up? Makes sense. But why the Hell are Lois, Diana and *Claire(!)* there? In universe, why would they even need anyone else if they have Diana and Claire? Why would you need a reporter and a psycho with a bat when you've got two people who can trade blows with Superman? And besides the potential power gap issue and how cramped I foresee these issues being, I think Claire is what really urks me. Love them or hate them, the other 11 characters here have long (to different extents) and rich histories, and MASSIVE fanbases. (Again, to different extents) Claire kinda sticks out like a sore thumb. And I've got no problem with the idea of a rookie standing alongside vets, but here, she really feels out of place to me. (And I also get the feeling she won't be acknowledged as the rookie) 
> 
> On the brighter side though, something I just realized? In addition to this issue being the first time CurrentCass is meeting Babs, this will be the first time since Cass's solo that all three Batgirls will be in the same room together. (Although considering this is FakeBabs, does it count? )


I'm happy with cameos. I bought Batgirl in the n52 and Catwoman for cameos of Steph, after all.  :Smile: 

I like Claire, actually. I mean, she's nowhere close to my favorite, but she's a fun idea and well written by King.

I think this might be sort of like Wonder Woman #600, where you get a massive crew doing stuff with like...one line each. Hopefully it will be more like Night of the Monster Men, where you get at least one scene of each hero doing something awesome. Though without the suck of Night of the Monster Men (#stillbitter  :Wink:  ).

We shall see!

----------


## millernumber1

> Something unexpected, she is out of the team... however, she was in one adventure in the previous batgirl volume... Is not crazy put her again here for this adventure.


She was actually in a lot of adventures - Annual #3, 46, 47, 50, and 51-52!

----------


## millernumber1

To celebrate our 100th page, here's some of my favorite Steph art!

1.jpg

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1324...ng-note-tablet

2.jpg

https://colouronly85.deviantart.com/...rown-343885572

3.jpg

http://comickergirl.tumblr.com/post/...batgirl-volume

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I'm surprised Supergirl isn't in this as well. In the past she had a great relationship with Steph, and yeah, kind of depressing to see her not being in a good place right now. I hope that gets squared away soon. Depressed and angry Steph is not always fun to read.

----------


## Assam

> I think this might be sort of like Wonder Woman #600, where you get a massive crew doing stuff with like...one line each. Hopefully it will be more like Night of the Monster Men, where you get at least one scene of each hero doing something awesome. Though without the suck of Night of the Monster Men (#stillbitter  ).


Yeah, Monster Men was pretty bad. 

But you know what still gets me about Wonder Woman #600? You have that massive crowd of heroes. Even got some Bats in there (Kate and Steph, and technically Renee and Misfit). But no Cass? Seeing as how Simone is a fan of her's I would have just thuoght it was editorial being petty, but NO, Cass was right there in the next story. (I'd still love to know how her first meeting with Diana went) Just confusing. 

But yeah, hopefully this is nothing like that. I want genuine interaction dang it!

----------


## Assam

> I'm surprised Supergirl isn't in this as well. In the past she had a great relationship with Steph, and yeah, kind of depressing to see her not being in a good place right now. I hope that gets squared away soon. Depressed and angry Steph is not always fun to read.


I'll admit: The fact that Kara isn't here DOES fill me with great pleasure.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm surprised Supergirl isn't in this as well. In the past she had a great relationship with Steph, and yeah, kind of depressing to see her not being in a good place right now. I hope that gets squared away soon. Depressed and angry Steph is not always fun to read.


That's an excellent point. Especially since Batgirl just had a crossover with Supergirl.




> Yeah, Monster Men was pretty bad. 
> 
> But you know what still gets me about Wonder Woman #600? You have that massive crowd of heroes. Even got some Bats in there (Kate and Steph, and technically Renee and Misfit). But no Cass? Seeing as how Simone is a fan of her's I would have just thuoght it was editorial being petty, but NO, Cass was right there in the next story. (I'd still love to know how her first meeting with Diana went) Just confusing. 
> 
> But yeah, hopefully this is nothing like that. I want genuine interaction dang it!


Wait, Cass was in the 600 story after the massive crowd of heroes story? Huh.

----------


## Assam

> Wait, Cass was in the 600 story after the massive crowd of heroes story? Huh.


Yup! In the 2nd story, before Diana and Power Girl go off on their own to talk, we see them, alongside Cass, taking down a monster.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yup! In the 2nd story, before Diana and Power Girl go off on their own to talk, we see them, alongside Cass, taking down a monster.


Ah, just checked it out. That's the Amanda Connor story - hmm. Cass sounded a bit off, but awesome that she was included, and in awesome Amanda Connor art!

----------


## adrikito

Cassandra Cain present for the 100 pages:

cassandra-cain-stephanie-brown.jpg

----------


## adrikito

Congratulations for the 100 page:

batgirls.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> I'm strangely confused in how to respond to this.


That was the intention  :Big Grin: 

Also congratulations for the 100 pages

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Yup! In the 2nd story, before Diana and Power Girl go off on their own to talk, we see them, alongside Cass, taking down a monster.


Glad that actually happened. At least Cass is getting the attention she deserves. I was kind of hoping for a Clayface, Cass and Steph friendship to happen.

----------


## millernumber1

> That was the intention 
> 
> Also congratulations for the 100 pages


Woohoo! Looks like we're going to blow past 100 straight to 101 in minutes!

----------


## CPSparkles

Congratulations on 100 pages Steph

----------


## Assam

> Ah, just checked it out. That's the Amanda Connor story - hmm. Cass sounded a bit off, but awesome that she was included, and in awesome Amanda Connor art!


Yeah, her voice was definitely off, but seeing her as a peer to Diana for even just a page or two was still a delight. 




> Cassandra Cain present for the 100 pages:
> 
> cassandra-cain-stephanie-brown.jpg


Too adorable for words. 




> Glad that actually happened. At least Cass is getting the attention she deserves. I was kind of hoping for a Clayface, Cass and Steph friendship to happen.


I wouldn't want to give up Cass and Basil's new friendship, but with Steph and Tim returning to 'Tec, I'm hoping we can finally see some real bonding time with her OG best friends. So far all we've gotten is lip service paid to the Cass Steph friendship, and I don't think Tim actually spoke to Cass once during Rise of the Batmen.

----------


## adrikito

> Too adorable for words. 
> .


I only put cassandra cain and stephanie brown in internet... and I found this image in seconds..




> Glad that actually happened. At least Cass is getting the attention she deserves. I was kind of hoping for a Clayface, Cass and Steph friendship to happen.





> I wouldn't want to give up Cass and Basil's new friendship, but with Steph and Tim returning to 'Tec, I'm hoping we can finally see some real bonding time with her OG best friends. So far all we've gotten is lip service paid to the Cass Steph friendship, and I don't think Tim actually spoke to Cass once during Rise of the Batmen.


For now we have this.. We hope that Karlo will continue as a good boy.

Use that Lady Clayface(I think that this is the name) as a villain and Karlo as a good man.. Break this friendship is a CRIME.

----------


## millernumber1

0817171337.jpg

Can confirm it's in LCS!  Glanced through it - it has the variant for #1 by Cully Hamner and the unused cover by Phil Noto as back matter. It runs in order from #1-#12, and includes each main cover between the stories. It also puts an additional blown up piece of art on the back side of each cover.

No new introductions, interviews, extras, sketches, or anything, though.  It seems to be decent, if not quite as high quality in terms of paper and cover, as the three Cass Batgirl books - I held it up next to those, and they would indeed look very nice next to each other.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

Missed the 100th page :Frown: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfe7Xb_pjk
Saw this, hoped for spoiler news and she was barely mentioned.

What was the unused Noto Cover? and blown up pieces?

Edit was the unused cover this? Seems like he repurposed for #3. I'm surprised I have never seen this before since I'm such a fan of Steph's Batgirl run.

----------


## Red obin

> Attachment 53242
> 
> BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #16
> 
> Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
> Art by ROGE ANTONIO
> Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
> Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
> 
> ...


New solicitation, Steph seems to be retaining her full mask.

----------


## millernumber1

> Missed the 00th page
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfe7Xb_pjk
> Saw this, hoped for spoiler news and she was barely mentioned.
> 
> What was the unused Noto Cover? and blown up pieces?
> 
> Edit was the unused cover this? Seems like he repurposed for #3. I'm surprised I have never seen this before since I'm such a fan of Steph's Batgirl run.


Yeah, I'm hoping that Steph gets at least one episode, if not a couple, where she shines, but so far...

The unused cover is this one: 1.jpg

It's also in Batgirl Rising (as is the Hamner cover), so if you have the old trade, you're missing no extra features.

The blown up pieces on the back of the cover pages were just from panels inside the issue - usually a shot of Steph doing something awesome. Sort of like a trailer image for the story to come. No new pieces.

----------


## millernumber1

> New solicitation, Steph seems to be retaining her full mask.


Oooh, good point! I keep forgetting she has the new mask...maybe because she's only appeared twice since she left (grumble)  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> Missed the 100th page
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfe7Xb_pjk
> Saw this, hopefor spoiler news and she was barely mentioned.


I saw this too. But nothing revelant. For that I don´t put this here.

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw this too. But nothing revelant. For that I don´t put this here.


Haha, such care in the curation of what people post to the thread!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> Yeah, I'm hoping that Steph gets at least one episode, if not a couple, where she shines, but so far...
> 
> The unused cover is this one: 1.jpg
> 
> It's also in Batgirl Rising (as is the Hamner cover), so if you have the old trade, you're missing no extra features.
> 
> The blown up pieces on the back of the cover pages were just from panels inside the issue - usually a shot of Steph doing something awesome. Sort of like a trailer image for the story to come. No new pieces.


Shame they did not use that cover.I like Noto's first 3 covers but dislike the rest as they makes steph look chubby.
Sadly only have original lesson trade but have batgirl rising in issues. Might get new trade for red robin and flood.

----------


## millernumber1

> Shame they did not use that cover.I like Noto's first 3 covers but dislike the rest as they makes steph look chubby.
> Sadly only have original lesson trade but have batgirl rising in issues. Might get new trade for red robin and flood.


Well, that cover was going to be for issue #2, so it would have detracted from the "who is Batgirl" silly marketing campaign they were going with. Pretty much everyone knew who it was going to be, based on the podcasts I listened to.  I love Noto's art, but after those first three, and issue #5's cover, I don't think his stuff was very strong. Certainly not as good as Artgerm and Dustin Nguyen's work on the rest of the covers. For some reason, his cover game just wasn't as great as he usually is for the rest of the series.

As I said before, I bought all three of the original trades this past year (I think I paid around 20 dollars for each one, though I usually had to buy one other trade along with the trade I was looking for). I also bought Red Robin: Collision, the single issue of Steph's Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, the Batman Inc Leviathan Strikes one-shot starring Steph after #22, the World's Finest trade by Sterling Gates, and the issue of The Web that she guest starred in. So I think I now own in hard copy all of Steph's major appearances as Batgirl (barring Death of Oracle, because BLECH).

----------


## adrikito

REMEMBER THIS... NEXT WEEK, Stephanie Brown return in Detective Comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> REMEMBER THIS... NEXT WEEK, Stephanie Brown return in Detective Comics.


YES! No one forget! Woohoo!

----------


## Caivu

> Any guesses as to who the guys are? I can only think of ARGUS, since they're still in town, and it looks like they're in a damaged part of the city.


Not that I'm bragging, but:

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yMDUvODkwL29yaWdpbmFsL0RUQ185NjNfNC5qcGc=.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Not that I'm bragging, but:
> 
> aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yMDUvODkwL29yaWdpbmFsL0RUQ185NjNfNC5qcGc=.jpg


Well predicted, you! Also, that means this is probably going to be strongly involved with the Monster Men plotline. Which is odd, since I thought Batwoman was going to be heavier into that plot.

----------


## Red obin

This preview was one of the first times I feel like spoiler has been written like pre52 spoiler/batgirl. She has been written well in the new 52 but her voice has not been the same except this.

----------


## adrikito

> Not that I'm bragging, but:
> 
> aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yMDUvODkwL29yaWdpbmFsL0RUQ185NjNfNC5qcGc=.jpg


This image is part of the preview:

https://www.newsarama.com/35999-tim-...3-preview.html

You are humans and work as a real couple.. Yeah, you are unstoppable..

----------


## Dataweaver

After the revelation that Bruce got last issue, I wonder if we're going to get a scene where he breaks the news to Stephanie.

----------


## adrikito

> After the revelation that Bruce got last issue, I wonder if we're going to get a scene where he breaks the news to Stephanie.


I hope this..

----------


## Frontier

> This preview was one of the first times I feel like spoiler has been written like pre52 spoiler/batgirl. She has been written well in the new 52 but her voice has not been the same except this.


That scene with Tim definitely feels more like Steph then she did in her spotlight issue in my opinion. 



> After the revelation that Bruce got last issue, I wonder if we're going to get a scene where he breaks the news to Stephanie.


I'd be surprised if Bruce doesn't use that to try and break through to Steph after she falls in with Anarky.

----------


## millernumber1

> This preview was one of the first times I feel like spoiler has been written like pre52 spoiler/batgirl. She has been written well in the new 52 but her voice has not been the same except this.


Interesting. I think the fact that it's one of the few times we see Steph in a non-life-threatening situation helps with that.

----------


## adrikito

Spoiler is in the cover:



Maybe we will see her in a flashback or in the present. This is the 2nd comic with her in November.  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

Well, I'm hoping firmly that she's at least in regular contact with the team after the Anarky arc.

----------


## adrikito

> Well, I'm hoping firmly that she's at least in regular contact with the team after the Anarky arc.


I hope this too.. But after add Batwing and Azrael replacing Tim and Steph... Maybe for see Spoiler again in the team we need Tim..

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope this too.. But after add Batwing and Azrael replacing Tim and Steph... Maybe for see Spoiler again in the team we need Tim..


Well, this is at the end of Tim's returns...  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

> 


I saw that! I'm glad Tynion's not making more "Anarky is a boyfriend" comments, and that he says this is a story he wants to tell, rather than just farming it out to other writers.  Very much enjoyed today's issue, though my unease about the potential romance with Lonnie is making me, well, uneasy.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Very much enjoyed today's issue, though my unease about the potential romance with Lonnie is making me, well, uneasy.


There are worse love triangles that could potentially be formed here. Like, imagine if instead of joining up with Lonnie, she got together with Alvin Draper, who would turn out to be a clone Tim made of himself. Oh, and he'd wear the Mr. Sarcastic costume. Because.

----------


## millernumber1

> There are worse love triangles that could potentially be formed here. Like, imagine if instead of joining up with Lonnie, she got together with Alvin Draper, who would turn out to be a clone Tim made of himself. Oh, and he'd wear the Mr. Sarcastic costume. Because.


Again, my problem is with triangles, not with Lonnie.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Again, my problem is with triangles, not with Lonnie.


I know, I know, I'm just joking around.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know, I know, I'm just joking around.


I think in another world, a Steph who had mutually broken up with Tim and wasn't in rebound mode anymore and Lonnie could have a cool Batman/Catwoman gender-flipped type of relationship.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> There are worse love triangles that could potentially be formed here. Like, imagine if instead of joining up with Lonnie, she got together with Alvin Draper, who would turn out to be a clone Tim made of himself. Oh, and he'd wear the Mr. Sarcastic costume. Because.


Okay, I seriously want to read about this.  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

So based on how this issue played out and was paced...unless they pull a twist that Steph joined back up with Bruce between this appearance and her last one, and has been doing undercover work (See: Her insistence on Lonnie taking off his mask), I find it very doubtful that everything will be resolved next issue. _Meaning_, I doubt we're seeing a roster shake-up for a time. What I could (unfortunately) see happening, is Steph continuing on her own after this (Or who knows, maybe she'll stick with Lonnie), and something is going to keep Tim from rejoining the team for Fall of the Batmen. And only _after_ Fall will Steph FINALLY return to fill Basil's spot (If for no other reason than Cass needs _one_ of her closest friends allowed), and as for Tim...well, either we end up with a 7 man team, a split roster, or maybe, GASP, Bruce would leave this book as he's going to be going in JLA.

----------


## adrikito

> I saw that! I'm glad Tynion's not making more "Anarky is a boyfriend" comments, and that he says this is a story he wants to tell, rather than just farming it out to other writers.  Very much enjoyed today's issue, though my unease about the potential romance with Lonnie is making me, well, uneasy.


GOOD.. He is not some kind of boyfriend...  Something interesting in the interview?

----------


## millernumber1

> So based on how this issue played out and was paced...unless they pull a twist that Steph joined back up with Bruce between this appearance and her last one, and has been doing undercover work (See: Her insistence on Lonnie taking off his mask), I find it very doubtful that everything will be resolved next issue. _Meaning_, I doubt we're seeing a roster shake-up for a time. What I could (unfortunately) see happening, is Steph continuing on her own after this (Or who knows, maybe she'll stick with Lonnie), and something is going to keep Tim from rejoining the team for Fall of the Batmen. And only _after_ Fall will Steph FINALLY return to fill Basil's spot (If for no other reason than Cass needs _one_ of her closest friends allowed), and as for Tim...well, either we end up with a 7 man team, a split roster, or maybe, GASP, Bruce would leave this book as he's going to be going in JLA.


Well, Tynion keeps saying this is just the next step in Steph's big arc that will probably have its finale at the end of the year, so I agree. But she's on the cover of Tim's final return issue, so I think it'll at least put her in contact with the team again, even if she's not willing to work with them directly for now.  The solicits don't seem to indicate she'll stay with Lonnie, though. Could be wrong.

Also, LOL. Bruce will never leave. The book wants to keep selling.  :Smile: 




> GOOD.. He is not some kind of boyfriend...  Something interesting in the interview?


I mean, it's mostly Tynion being Tynion, super enthusiastic about his faves.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Today is National Waffle Day!

----------


## millernumber1

It's our girl's favorite food day!

----------


## adrikito

> today is national waffle day!


hahahhaha.. Good day.

----------


## Moriarty

mmmmm... delicious waffles.

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## millernumber1

> Robins


Ooh, nice, what's the source for that?

----------


## CPSparkles

It's from https://diaverik.tumblr.com

I really like the idea of all of them training together. A family that exercises together stays together  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> It's from https://diaverik.tumblr.com
> 
> I really like the idea of all of them training together. A family that exercises together stays together


I do too. I wish we got more of that. The closest we had was Batwoman training the team in Tec, but that was missing the other three lads. Or the lads training the We Are Robins during Robin War, but that was missing Steph (and Cass).

----------


## Caivu

New from Alvaro Martinez:

Screenshot_20170827-020155.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> New from Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Screenshot_20170827-020155.jpg


That is gorgeous. Is it a WIP for a future comic, or a commission/fan piece?

----------


## Caivu

> That is gorgeous. Is it a WIP for a future comic, or a commission/fan piece?


He's drawing issue #969, so it's probably from that.

----------


## millernumber1

> He's drawing issue #969, so it's probably from that.


That's so awesome. It's been far too long since my current favorite Bat-artist drew my favorite character!

----------


## adrikito

> Robins


EXCELLENT image.. He adds Steph, he is intelligent..




> New from Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Attachment 53820
> 
> He's drawing issue #969, so it's probably from that.


I LIKED... Thanks for the information.




> That is gorgeous. Is it a WIP for a future comic, or a commission/fan piece?


You are right.. Is one excellent cover.

----------


## Rogue Star

> New from Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Attachment 53820


Yeah, REALLY great art here.

----------


## CPSparkles

Batfamily Fusions  https://careamorran.tumblr.com

----------


## Red obin

> Batfamily Fusions  https://careamorran.tumblr.com


Cool designs but horrible names :Stick Out Tongue:  How did they not call Steph and Dick- Stick.

I might order Steph vol 1 today as it is finally out in the UK. Although I might get it from a third party seller to save some cash. It's a good trick you can do on amazon UK where you order form a third party seller like wordery for cheaper but it is often shipped from US and has 1-2 week delivery time eg. I ordered Green arrow vol 3 on 15th and it came 25th. Normally a £12-13 trade is £7-9. It used to be cheaper and you could get trades for £6 but the prices are going up. It is great for hardcovers as you can get them £11-13 instead of the usual £20.
Irrelevant to Steph but useful if you live in the UK.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cool designs but horrible names How did they not call Steph and Dick- Stick.
> 
> I might order Steph vol 1 today as it is finally out in the UK. Although I might get it from a third party seller to save some cash. It's a good trick you can do on amazon UK where you order form a third party seller like wordery for cheaper but it is often shipped from US and has 1-2 week delivery time eg. I ordered Green arrow vol 3 on 15th and it came 25th. Normally a £12-13 trade is £7-9. It used to be cheaper and you could get trades for £6 but the prices are going up. It is great for hardcovers as you can get them £11-13 instead of the usual £20.
> Irrelevant to Steph but useful if you live in the UK.


The fusion idea is pretty amusing.

I bought the digital version of Steph's first volume - the kindle version is a a bit better deal.

----------


## Red obin

> The fusion idea is pretty amusing.


I love Pere Perez's nightwing Steph design except add a ponytail like this.

----------


## millernumber1

> I love Pere Perez's nightwing Steph design except add a ponytail like this.


Agreed. I'm not a fan of buzzcuts or undercuts on men or women, so I much prefer this look.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> Agreed. I'm not a fan of buzzcuts or undercuts on men or women, so I much prefer this look.


Same, buzzcuts never look great- sorry anyone with a buzzcut.

----------


## millernumber1

Subtweeting Kate  :Wink:

----------


## Caivu

Feh. You two can just keep being wrong.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Feh. You two can just keep being wrong.


Tis all in good fun.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Batfamily Fusions  https://careamorran.tumblr.com


Except for certain names...

tenor.jpg

----------


## Red obin

to be fair at least the buzzcut makes sense for Kate.

----------


## millernumber1

> to be fair at least the buzzcut makes sense for Kate.


I mean, kinda. But Rucka and Williams were so specific about how she looked, I'm sure they had a reason for the bob instead.

----------


## Red obin

http://heroindex.net/?p=2391

Good article to convince people to read Steph batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

> http://heroindex.net/?p=2391
> 
> Good article to convince people to read Steph batgirl.


Indeed! Though I take issue with "least capable." Steph is very capable! Though...I guess compared to everyone else, there is an argument to be made.

----------


## Assam

> Indeed! Though I take issue with "least capable." Steph is very capable! Though...I guess compared to everyone else, there is an argument to be made.


I find the "especially Damian" part particularly laughable considering at that point Damian wasn't even that strong BatFam wise, and also because of this panel. 

weeeeee.jpg

----------


## TheCape

I love those 2

----------


## millernumber1

> I love those 2


As should all people who love good things.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> As should all people who love good things.


Amen.

Also, this was the run that actually make me like Damian

----------


## Assam

> Also, this was the run that actually make me like Damian


Certainly enjoyed him with Steph a ton, but for reasons I've gotten into, I don't think I'll ever truly 'like' him again. I suppose I'm just destined to dislike all BatFam members whose names start with "D". Well, there's David too, but I've barely read anything with David.

----------


## TheCape

> Certainly enjoyed him with Steph a ton, but for reasons I've gotten into, I don't think I'll ever truly 'like' him again. I suppose I'm just destined to dislike all BatFam members whose names start with "D". Well, there's David too, but I've barely read anything with David.


May i ask way?. i'm curious

----------


## millernumber1

> Amen.
> 
> Also, this was the run that actually make me like Damian


Same! Before that, I just thought he was a cruel, nasty boy who didn't deserve sweet Tim's spot. After this, I saw it as a quest for redemption.

----------


## TheCape

> Same! Before that, I just thought he was a cruel, nasty boy who didn't deserve sweet Tim's spot. After this, I saw it as a quest for redemption.


Well it wasn't exactly the same for me, i understood his dealt pretty early on, am i didn't knew much about Tim until his Red Robin solo, but i think that Damian usually come across as more likable when has other people around to serve as a balance. Steph, Maya and Jon are my favorites in that regard, Dick is good, but i feel that Morrison's version wasn't as good.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it wasn't exactly the same for me, i understood his dealt pretty early on, am i didn't knew much about Tim until his Red Robin solo, but i think that Damian usually come across as more likable when has other people around to serve as a balance. Steph, Maya and Jon are my favorites in that regard, Dick is good, but i feel that Morrison's version wasn't as good.


Completely agree! Steph is my favorite, obviously, but Maya is quite solid, and Jon is good, I just don't enjoy Tomasi's writing that much.

----------


## Red obin

> Indeed! Though I take issue with "least capable." Steph is very capable! Though...I guess compared to everyone else, there is an argument to be made.


That was the only bit that stirred me a little. I think at the start of the series she was lower as at that point there were few new members and everyone was well established. Damian was probably better but not by much- his arrogance got in the way. However, by the end of the series I think she is on par with Tim and Damian. Remember back then we didn't have as many tertiary bat characters such as Duke and Harper(Duke's moving up) and I wouldn't quite count Batwing.

Yeah, Steph and Damian were great- #17 was amazing.

----------


## millernumber1

> That was the only bit that stirred me a little. I think at the start of the series she was lower as at that point there were few new members and everyone was well established. Damian was probably better but not by much- his arrogance got in the way. However, by the end of the series I think she is on par with Tim and Damian. Remember back then we didn't have as many tertiary bat characters such as Duke and Harper(Duke's moving up) and I wouldn't quite count Batwing.
> 
> Yeah, Steph and Damian were great- #17 was amazing.


I know it's in Red Robin, but Steph taking down Prudence was a really great moment of awesome from her that I don't think gets enough credit.

#17, aka "Moonbounce," is a triumph. It's a shame Pere Perez didn't get quite as much attention as Lee Garbett and Dustin Nguyen from that series.

----------


## Rogue Star

> http://heroindex.net/?p=2391
> 
> Good article to convince people to read Steph batgirl.


So Rebirth hasn't done anything to make Steph's time as Batgirl canon again?

----------


## millernumber1

> So Rebirth hasn't done anything to make Steph's time as Batgirl canon again?


No, she is still firmly Batman Eternal, as far as the text is.

----------


## Red obin

http://www.cbr.com/ranking-20-batgirl-costumes/

Ugh, SBFF is DEFINITELY NOT THAT HIGH. You can make arguments for the others but definitely not that. Filmation, B and R and BoP and elseworlds are also hard to argue.

----------


## millernumber1

> http://www.cbr.com/ranking-20-batgirl-costumes/
> 
> Ugh, SBFF is DEFINITELY NOT THAT HIGH. You can make arguments for the others but definitely not that. Filmation, B and R and BoP and elseworlds are also hard to argue.


That list is trash. What even are the criteria for their rankings?

----------


## adrikito

> i find the "especially damian" part particularly laughable considering at that point damian wasn't even that strong batfam wise, and also because of this panel. 
> 
> Attachment 54082


hahhaahahha..




> http://www.cbr.com/ranking-20-batgirl-costumes/
> 
> Ugh, SBFF is DEFINITELY NOT THAT HIGH. You can make arguments for the others but definitely not that. Filmation, B and R and BoP and elseworlds are also hard to argue.


Only the 18?? Is better than certain previous costumes...

The rebirth costume(the worst barbara) the 6th.....  :Mad:  The YJ Costume (9) is better, like Steph/Cass/Helena batgirl costumes.

----------


## millernumber1

Maybe it's just because my favorite character will never be #1 in fighting or training or something, but I find people who are obsessed with "my fave is better than yours at fighting" (except for Cass, who should always be better than you) really annoying. The point isn't "who is better than you at fighting," but "who do you love, and why."

And I love Steph, because she does what a hero is supposed to do: save people, and inspire them.

----------


## adrikito

> Maybe it's just because my favorite character will never be #1 in fighting or training or something, but I find people who are obsessed with "my fave is better than yours at fighting" (except for Cass, who should always be better than you) really annoying. The point isn't "who is better than you at fighting," but "who do you love, and why."
> 
> And I love Steph, because she does what a hero is supposed to do: save people, and inspire them.


Yeah is annoying.. 

Save people, inspire them... Yes, she is a hero, a true Blue Lantern..

blue lantern stephanie brown batgirl.jpg

----------


## Red obin

Yep, Steph would be an ultimate blue lantern.

Well characters are more likeable and relatable if they aren't perfect. Who would be interested in reading a comic where the superhero solved everything with ultimate power.I would much rather read a developing street level hero evolving as a character then action driven superpower comics(although I like some of those too).

----------


## Red obin

Drop some music vids in here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZBeztPAZCg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCHP0vizbtc

One of my favs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQGWnucIMNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qeIGc42XaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWRLPXGe_pY

----------


## millernumber1

Those are all very nice! Thanks for sharing!

----------


## Caivu

Not about the image so much, but the description:

Screenshot_20170904-031937.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

"Become Brown"...hmmm.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Not about the image so much, but the description:
> 
> Screenshot_20170904-031937.jpg


Is the next chapter... BROWN..

----------


## TheCape

> "Become Brown"...hmmm.


Tim is obviously gettin prepared to change his last name, Steph wholeheartily agreed  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

I found this FUNNY:

stephanie brown damian wayne.jpg

----------


## Red obin

> I found this FUNNY:
> 
> stephanie brown damian wayne.jpg


Ive seen that before nd noticed how Steph seems to not age at all. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## millernumber1

> Tim is obviously gettin prepared to change his last name, Steph wholeheartily agreed


Hahah! That would be amazing!




> I found this FUNNY:
> 
> stephanie brown damian wayne.jpg


I love that artist.




> Ive seen that before nd noticed how Steph seems to not age at all.


I don't recall if these were part of the series of fan art inspired by No Dawn, No Day, but you're right, Steph must have inherited Bruce's no-aging ability.  :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

I have given up on trying to figure out how old Steph is.

----------


## millernumber1

> I have given up on trying to figure out how old Steph is.


Haha. Well, I don't really know how old she was in 1992, though if Tim was 13, I've always assumed she was a year or so older. She was 16 when pregnant, and 19 when Batgirl.

In Batman Eternal, she's 17, and Tim is 16. Tim has remained 16 ever since, so I think she's still 17.  :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

> Not about the image so much, but the description:
> 
> Attachment 54255


Is this foreshadowing a code brown? Sounds like the ***** about to hit the fan!

----------


## Rogue Star

> Haha. Well, I don't really know how old she was in 1992, though if Tim was 13, I've always assumed she was a year or so older. She was 16 when pregnant, and 19 when Batgirl.
> 
> In Batman Eternal, she's 17, and Tim is 16. Tim has remained 16 ever since, so I think she's still 17.


Okay, because I know they've been doing... _things_ together.  And it's just one of those things that made me go, "Uh... okay?"

----------


## millernumber1

> Is this foreshadowing a code brown? Sounds like the ***** about to hit the fan!


Batgirl-046-(2016)-(Digital-Empire)-014.jpg

The color I'm thinking of...  :Wink: 




> Okay, because I know they've been doing... _things_ together.  And it's just one of those things that made me go, "Uh... okay?"


I mean...could just be kissing things! This is Tim, after all. (What are New Jersey laws about that sort of thing?)

----------


## Caivu

> I mean...could just be kissing things! This is Tim, after all. (What are New Jersey laws about that sort of thing?)


Age of consent in New Jersey is 16.

----------


## millernumber1

> Age of consent in New Jersey is 16.


Thanks! (I still maintain there's a certain amount of ambiguity, though it does seem weighted on the "they were sleeping together" side with their shirts on the floor.)

----------


## Rogue Star

> Age of consent in New Jersey is 16.


Oh, well, in that case it's all good. No further questions from me!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Oh, well, in that case it's all good. No further questions from me!


Lol, that gif

----------


## Sannom

> Thanks! (I still maintain there's a certain amount of ambiguity, though it does seem weighted on the "they were sleeping together" side with their shirts on the floor.)


I remember having an argument on Tumblr about the fact that no, Tim wasn't pulling his pants off, he was putting them _on_. You know that scene that starts with him pulling off the uniform and ends with him putting on some sweat pants.

----------


## millernumber1

> I remember having an argument on Tumblr about the fact that no, Tim wasn't pulling his pants off, he was putting them _on_. You know that scene that starts with him pulling off the uniform and ends with him putting on some sweat pants.


I'm not sure which side of the argument that supports, though?

----------


## adrikito

I found this in Tumblr:

Screen Shot 584.jpg

in the same post that this image of Cass:

http://community.comicbookresources....19#post3070219

----------


## millernumber1

> I found this in Tumblr:
> 
> Screen Shot 584.jpg


That was a cute one!

I also found some interesting fics today - one about Steph being actually Bruce's daughter as a result of a fling before he left for training: http://archiveofourown.org/works/120...full_work=true

She has an amazing speech to Damian about Bruce's "true" children that I wish someone would tell Damian in canon. I love Damian (as a result of his interactions with Steph as Batgirl), but I think that the writers treat his claims of being the "real" son of Batman without the distance they need.

----------


## Frontier

> I found this in Tumblr:
> 
> Screen Shot 584.jpg
> 
> in the same post that this image of Cass:
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....19#post3070219


Is that supposed to be wounds on her face?

----------


## adrikito

> That was a cute one!
> 
> I also found some interesting fics today - one about Steph being actually Bruce's daughter as a result of a fling before he left for training: http://archiveofourown.org/works/120...full_work=true
> 
> She has an amazing speech to Damian about Bruce's "true" children that I wish someone would tell Damian in canon. I love Damian (as a result of his interactions with Steph as Batgirl), but I think that the writers treat his claims of being the "real" son of Batman without the distance they need.


THANKS, I VISITED THAT PLACE PREVIOSLY..

Yeah that of the "real" son... We and the batfamily members know that.. 

I was bored and I saw the Tynon interviews about Steph(in steph wiki), I'm glad that TimxStephxCass relationships are more or less like in the past.. I imaginated this after see Cass in Steph apartment and the last flashback of TimxSteph(she is part of his life).. I hope that Harper can´t ruin that(the girls special friendship)... 

The best is heard this:*

One of my primary focuses in this book is giving Steph her place in the larger mythos of Gotham City. I don't mean to say that as her place is as a partner to Tim Drake, because it's a bigger issue than that.*

Yeah, she is bigger than that, I hope that YJ will Show that..

----------


## millernumber1

So, I finally bought my ticket for Baltimore Comic Con. I am kinda sad that Bill Willingham cancelled, since I really wanted to ask him some questions about Steph as Robin, and take a pic with my copy of Robin #126, but I found out that Dustin Nguyen has apparently been added, and that's incredibly exciting!

----------


## Red obin

> So, I finally bought my ticket for Baltimore Comic Con. I am kinda sad that Bill Willingham cancelled, since I really wanted to ask him some questions about Steph as Robin, and take a pic with my copy of Robin #126, but I found out that Dustin Nguyen has apparently been added, and that's incredibly exciting!


Great,dustin nguyen is my straight up favourite comic artist especially with the likes of batgirl and Lil Gotham. He worked at a good time to be on the batman books around the 2010s, streets of gotham and heart of hush were also good.

----------


## millernumber1

> Great,dustin nguyen is my straight up favourite comic artist especially with the likes of batgirl and Lil Gotham. He worked at a good time to be on the batman books around the 2010s, streets of gotham and heart of hush were also good.


Descender is gorgeous, though I'm not following it, and his Secret Hero Society books are adorable.

----------


## Assam

> May i ask way?. i'm curious


Asked right prior to my ban, they were wondering why I don't like Damian. And with the week off, I had time to really think about every reason. And these aren't in any order BTW. Here goes nothing: 

1.* The Son of Batman.* Right off the bat, I never liked the concept of Bruce having a blood son, both because it sounded incredibly fanficy, and because it went against the themes of the BatFamily. Even so, this was only a real problem for Damian himself because both in book and out, he _has_ been seen as a truer son. And I'm sorry, but that really bugs me. (If my getting banned over this topic wasn't evidence of that) 

2. *The Daughters*. Personality wise, we all know that Damian has very little  in common with Cassandra Cain-Wayne and Helena Wayne. However, everything that DC finds marketable about him is taken from those two. Small child raised by their dad to be an assassin that works with Batman as a hero? Cass. Blood child? Helena. The only reason Damian has been pushed as hard as he has been as opposed to those two is because he's a boy. Speaking of his push...

3. *Over Exposure.* Bloody Hell, there's too much Damian on the market. I know overexposure isn't a problem for most people (Batman, Superman and Spider-Man remain the most popular heroes after all), but it is for me. And for a character that got off to a bad start for me and things frequently keeping me from liking him anymore, this doesn't help. Action figures, statues, assorted other merch,  no less than 5 animated films in which he's starred in and the fact that since he became Robin, apart from when he died and came back, this kid almost always gets a starring role in a book. Or more. Not DC's fault but fans also like to include him in their work, but exclude others, which can get very irritating. 

4.* Timing.* Damian could not have been introduced at a worse time. Same goes for Kate Kane actually. War Games was still fresh, wherein we'd lost both Steph and Gavin in awful ways. Then after appearing in the Under the Red Hood storyline and a few issues of Cass's book, Onyx just disappeared from existence. And of course, EvilCass. One character that means the world to me,  and three that I really liked had just been screwed over in rapid succession. And here were Kate and Damian, the latter just slithering his way into the BatFamily as no one even talked about Cass, and Bruce wrote her off as having always been disturbed. In addition to the clear malice on display, it was like the Bat-Office was saying, "Only at least half-white guys and red headed women allowed," only emphasized by the introduction of Charlie. The simple fact is that Cass IS my reason for caring about the BatBooks, hence why I paid them no mind in the Nu52. Cass is the reason I love Steph, she, alongside YJ, are the reasons I love Tim, she's the reason I love Oracle to the extent that I do, etc. And with that in mind, Rebirth is the first time in the course of Kate and Damian's existences that I have found the BatBooks to be satisfactory. Not great, but overall I'd give the line a C, which is the highest grade I'd have given it in the last decade. They have never existed at a time until recently where hearing about Batman did anything but piss me off. (Even during Gates of Gotham, we knew the reboot was approaching) And of course, my feelings toward the time they've been around is going to impact my opinion of them.  It's not fair to them of course, but these things often aren't. And since I've brought up not being fair...

5. *Resentment* As I just said, it really isn't fair, and kind of silly, to resent fictional characters. But I do, and I can't help how I feel. This is sort of a culmination of the other topics, but with some other factors thrown in. I resent him for being treated as being MORE Bruce's kid, especially at a time when one of Bruce's kids was being treated like crap, erased from existence, and being rebooted. (At least she's gonna get adopted again in the next year and a half). I resent him for getting SO much attention. I resent him for being promoted over others because of his gender.  I resent him for becoming part of the Family at the time that he did and I resent him for surviving the Nu52 reboot. 

6. *Personality* Now I've said several times that as far as personality goes, I have NO problem with Damian. And while that's mostly still true, right now and for the past few months (And for most years prior to coming to this forum), its just OK. Nothing special that really sticks out to me. In contrast, there's Steph.(Who I may or may not have felt obligated to talk about a bit in this post) With the level of resentment I have toward certain characters, I have every reason to dislike her. Large chunks of her fanbase are Cass haters, the HORRIBLE way the Batgirl transition was handled, just making the question of Batgirl more than between Cass and Babs, and now appearing on Young Justice...but I don't hate her. Don't dislike her one bit. No, she's my 2nd favorite member fo the Batfam. Because THAT is the power and impact that her relationship with Cass had. It was so beautifully built up to, written and executed, even AFTER Steph's death, that no matter what I could never dislike Steph. Easily one of the best relationships in comics. Damian's character though, yeah, he's OK. Nothing that could make me never hold anything against him, and if you know me, then you know his relationship with Dick isn't doing him any favors there either. And fun as his relationships with Steph and Cass were...not enough. 

So yeah, that's why I don't like Damian Wayne. And part of why I'm not exactly a fan of Kate Kane. And yet another gushing session over Cass and Steph's relationship, F**K ITS SO GOOD!  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> ...Steph.(Who I may or may not have felt obligated to talk about a bit in this post)


Haha.  :Smile: 

I definitely agree that there's a really frustrating way that adoption and the adopted kids (except for Dick) are denigrated because of Damian's existence.

----------


## Aahz

To be fair, by the time they really started to push Damian Cass evil phase was allready over. And they didn't really do anything with Kate after 52 ended.

But I think it was somehow the combined problem of DC wanting to shake things up with One Year later and Morrison not really caring for the established continuity and being more interested in somehow reconning older stuff back in.

But I agree that keep pushing Damian and Dick at the expense of the other Batkids. And I'm also not really excited about the exposer they are giving Kate at the moment while the middle kids don't get much.

----------


## millernumber1

> To be fair, by the time they really started to push Damian Cass evil phase was allready over. And they didn't really do anything with Kate after 52 ended.
> 
> But I think it was somehow the combined problem of DC wanting to shake things up with One Year later and Morrison not really caring for the established continuity and being more interested in somehow retconning older stuff back in.


I think it was really Didio and Tomasi as editors. Morrison had his Damian agenda, of course, but I don't think he forced the secondary titles to stop using Steph and Cass.

----------


## Assam

> To be fair, by the time they really started to push Damian Cass evil phase was allready over. And they didn't really do anything with Kate after 52 ended.


Well, Kate got her spin leading Detective Comics and got to survive the Reboot, and while Damian's real push DID start once EvilCass was done, he first showed up while it was going on, and after the fact, Cass was still given barely anything to do up until the last couple months Pre-Nu52.

----------


## TheCape

> Asked right prior to my ban, they were wondering why I don't like Damian. And with the week off, I had time to really think about every reason. And these aren't in any order BTW. Here goes nothing:


Holy shit, that was long, thanks for you insight, even if i disagreed, Tim and Damian are pretty much tied when it comes to be my favorite members of the Batfamily, but Cass is a very close second, i totally get where you are coming from and i hope that things get better for the rest of the Batclan (specially for the 90s kids and Jason).

----------


## TheCape

> I don't recall if these were part of the series of fan art inspired by No Dawn, No Day, but you're right, Steph must have inherited Bruce's no-aging ability.


Althought that story is an.... odd animal (that is kind of a guilty pleasure), i mantain that Drunk Damian talking with Chuck the cannibal chicken about how much he miss Steph is hilarious and nobody can't tell me otherwise :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> So yeah, that's why I don't like Damian Wayne. And part of why I'm not exactly a fan of Kate Kane. And yet another gushing session over Cass and Steph's relationship, F**K ITS SO GOOD!


......... Seems that Damian is something like Duke for me.. Somebody who appeared in a bad moment and... With the time(and use the character for almost everything) you hated him a lot..

OK, nothing against you.. I want more Steph and Cass too..

*WHAT A SHAME... I EXPECTED BIG NEWS ABOUT STEPH.. MAYBE SHE RETURNING TO THE BAT TEAM IN DETECTIVE COMICS...*

----------


## Rogue Star

I feel you, Assam.  Making them the biological child of someone is such a cheap way for creators to make their characters important.  That's why I don't respect or care for Damien.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, Kate got her spin leading Detective Comics and got to survive the Reboot, and while Damian's real push DID start once EvilCass was done, he first showed up while it was going on, and after the fact, Cass was still given barely anything to do up until the last couple months Pre-Nu52.


By the time Kate got Tec, Cass had allready had her second Batgirl series and lead the Outsiders for some time.

----------


## Aahz

> I think it was really Didio and Tomasi as editors. Morrison had his Damian agenda, of course, but I don't think he forced the secondary titles to stop using Steph and Cass.


But he also didn't really used them in his stories iirc.

----------


## Assam

> By the time Kate got Tec, Cass had allready had her second Batgirl series and lead the Outsiders for some time.


And by that, you mean Cass had gotten a crap Beechen written mini with only one high point (at the very end) which, and this is probably one of the more logic bound conspiracy theories out there, was primarily made so the company could look at the low sales (Brought upon by Beechen's name) and claim that there just wasn't interest in Cass. And as for Outsiders, she was important in three or four issues and not particularly well characterized throughout, and she lead the team for about two issues before Tomasi took over the book and once again displayed his hatred of her by ignoring her for the entire run. 

Sorry dude, but there's a reason I call 2006-2016 Cass's 10 years of Hell. Again, the ONLY bright spots were the adoption and the final months of Pre-Nu52 with her appearances in Red Robin and Gates of Gotham...but even then, we knew the reboot was coming. 




> But he also didn't really used them in his stories iirc.


Even worse, we COULD have gotten more Cass Pre-Nu52 if not for Morrison. Simone REALLY wanted her in her Birds of Prey run, having fully admitted her mistakes in her brief time writing the character before and had since read more of her and become a fan...but she was denied the ability to use her because Morrison "had plans" for her in Inc. Plans which amounted to a cameo in a single issue.

----------


## Frontier

> Even worse, we COULD have gotten more Cass Pre-Nu52 if not for Morrison. Simone REALLY wanted her in her Birds of Prey run, having fully admitted her mistakes in her brief time writing the character before and had since read more of her and become a fan...but she was denied the ability to use her because Morrison "had plans" for her in Inc. Plans which amounted to a cameo in a single issue.


Heh, DC and their weird embargo's/character restrictions  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> But he also didn't really used them in his stories iirc.


Morrison, as far as I know, created the Black Bat identity (I still haven't figured out who was responsible for keeping her out of the stories for a full year after she gave Steph the cowl). He also gave Steph her own issue of Batman Inc, which is about as much as he did for any non-Batman or Robin character.

----------


## Aahz

> Morrison, as far as I know, created the Black Bat identity (I still haven't figured out who was responsible for keeping her out of the stories for a full year after she gave Steph the cowl).


IIRc it was in Red Robin where Tim suggested she use Black Bat, but honestly "Black Bat" is (like Red Robin) neither particularly creative nor a real step away from Batgirl (even her costume was in universe partly her (or actally Helena's ?) old suit ...).




> He also gave Steph her own issue of Batman Inc, which is about as much as he did for any non-Batman or Robin character.


In the last issue, before the Reboot iirc.

----------


## Aahz

I have to correct myself, Tims suggestions were Bat-Chick, Knightbat and Black Robin ...

----------


## Assam

> IIRc it was in Red Robin where Tim suggested she use Black Bat, but honestly "Black Bat" is (like Red Robin) neither particularly creative nor a real step away from Batgirl (even her costume was in universe partly her (or actally Helena's ?) old suit ...).


Black Bat wasn't actually one of the name's Tim suggested. Morrison, lover of all continuity and references that he is, got Black Bat from the nickname Cass was called by Black Wind during the Horrocks run.

----------


## millernumber1

> In the last issue, before the Reboot iirc.


However, Morrison had been planning it for at least a year - he references it in Batman: The Return, and then in issue #6 of Batman Inc. BQM was clearly told to set it up in Batgirl issue #22, and Morrison didn't originally plan for the reboot, so I don't think you can say that the fact that it was the last issue of Batman Inc to be in the old continuity counts against Morrison's interest in using Steph.

----------


## Assam

Oh yeah, besides lists, another method I came up with to deal with the depression was to go through older parts of the forum and purposely seek out things which I knew would make me angry. There were more than a couple cases in this thread which did that too, but seeing comments like this one just make me laugh in retrospect. 




> I imagine it'll be Tim that gives Steph and even Harper their tech. The new Dynamic Trio! I'm actually really excited for it.


Now this lead to a whole humorous debate but that's besides the point. While none of the comments were exactly like this, there were several across various threads along these lines. And I'm just like...did the people who really don't like Cass on this forum really think that after Steph came back that Cass wouldn't be following suit?  Was Tynion not established as a 90's fanboy yet? Did people forget that Snyder originally wanted Gates of Gotham to be a Cass-focused book? Was it just mean spirited wishful thinking on their part? If any of the people who were making these kinds of comments in 2014 and 2015 see this, I'd be interested in hearing what your thought process was back then.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah, besides lists, another method I came up with to deal with the depression was to go through older parts of the forum and purposely seek out things which I knew would make me angry. There were more than a couple cases in this thread which did that too, but seeing comments like this one just make me laugh in retrospect. 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this lead to a whole humorous debate but that's besides the point. While none of the comments were exactly like this, there were several across various threads along these lines. And I'm just like...did the people who really don't like Cass on this forum really think that after Steph came back that Cass wouldn't be following suit?  Was Tynion not established as a 90's fanboy yet? Did people forget that Snyder originally wanted Gates of Gotham to be a Cass-focused book? Was it just mean spirited wishful thinking on their part? If any of the people who were making these kinds of comments in 2014 and 2015 see this, I'd be interested in hearing what your thought process was back then.


It was a strange time for me. I'd been gone from comics since the end of 2011, and Batman Eternal got me back into comics pretty thoroughly. We had the Future's End: Batgirl one-shot to show us that Cass was again "allowed" in stories, so I was pretty sure that Steph would come back in the sequel to Batman Eternal, and was extremely excited for that. I never once hoped that Cass wouldn't come back, and, in fact, once Steph did come back, my greatest hope was for Cass to come back and be best friends with her again.

----------


## adrikito

I remember that time... the first time that I heard both names(steph/cass)... I started with the comic few time before that..

As I said... Both are inseparable.. If one exist the other too.. or something is wrong here..

----------


## adrikito

> Attachment 53896


Origin of this image?

MI 3000th post for Stephanie Brown.. She is worth.

----------


## Assam

> Origin of this image?
> 
> MI 3000th post for Stephanie Brown.. She is worth.


Batgirl Vol 1 #26 AKA My favorite solo Steph adventure.

----------


## millernumber1

> Origin of this image?
> 
> MI 3000th post for Stephanie Brown.. She is worth.


Congrats on 3000! And who better than our very own Spoiler!

The issue is https://www.comixology.com/Batgirl-2...al-comic/22498

----------


## adrikito

THANK YOU *Assam* and *miller*..

----------


## adrikito

Despite all.. Steph is more intelligent than Harper and Leslie.. They fall easily in Anarky tricks..

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite all.. Steph is more intelligent than Harper and Leslie.. They fall easily in Anarky tricks..


Oooh, harsh. I think Steph had the advantage of Batman's information, and Lonnie being creepy in his recruitment tactics.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Take this with a grain of salt, but the December solicits have apparently leaked:

IMG_g6xd0e.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Take this with a grain of salt, but the December solicits have apparently leaked:
> 
> Attachment 54660


I love it!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Take this with a grain of salt, but the December solicits have apparently leaked:
> 
> Attachment 54660


*I CAN´T BE HAPPY FOR SEE STEPH IN THE TEAM BECAUSE IS THE FALL OF THE BATMEN... GOODBYE TEAM..*  :Frown:   :Mad: 

boards4 chan... I saw this today.. I wanted put this here but.. I make a mistake in the past, because I believed a fake thing here...

Maybe Superman fans are interested in see that Oz mystery is still a mistery..

*DAMNIT.... A CROSSOVER OF SUPERSONS, TT again.... WHY???*  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

> *I CAN´T BE HAPPY FOR SEE STEPH IN THE TEAM BECAUSE IS THE FALL OF THE BATMEN... GOODBYE TEAM..*  
> 
> boards4 chan... I saw this today.. I wanted put this here but.. I make a mistake in the past, because I believed a fake thing here...
> 
> Maybe Superman fans are interested in see that Oz mystery is still a mistery..
> 
> *DAMNIT.... A CROSSOVER OF SUPERSONS, TT again.... WHY???*


No, it'll be fine! Steph will rejoin the team, and they will prevent the fall of the Batmen!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> No, it'll be fine! Steph will rejoin the team, and they will prevent the fall of the Batmen!


I hope that this is only for Clayface.. Something bad will happen here... We need this team..

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope that this is only for Clayface.. Something bad will happen here... We need this team..


The team will endure. Tynion has at least another year on the book, and there's no way he gives up his team.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> The team will endure. Tynion has at least another year on the book, and there's no way he gives up his team.


Yeah, the end of rebirth is maybe the only thing that can change this with Tynion in another place..

----------


## millernumber1

> Until the end of rebirth... Please, we need this team..


Detective is still one of DC's stronger sellers - I think he'll last for quite a while. Which is good, because we need someone in Steph's corner for a long time to get her some new fans!

----------


## adrikito

> Detective is still one of DC's stronger sellers - I think he'll last for quite a while. Which is good, because we need someone in Steph's corner for a long time to get her some new fans!


Yes, DC can´t deceive the YOUNG JUSTICE FANS..

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, DC can´t deceive the YOUNG JUSTICE FANS..


Ahaha, I'd forgotten about that! I really hope they do a Young Justice tie-in comic, like they did before, and it features Steph as well. That would be awesome.

----------


## Assam

Once All-Star wraps up, 'Tec will be DC's second highest selling title. Tynion isn't going anywhere. At long last, Cass and Steph  have a long-term protector. 

There are still loose plot threads with Cass and JPV, not to mention there will likely be more to Tim's story past the next arc. The team isnt going anywhere. (Although it may change)

Also, I wouldn't exactly say Tynion has been making new Steph fans. Quite the oppisite sadly.  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> Also, I wouldn't exactly say Tynion has been making new Steph fans. Quite the oppisite sadly.


You are right, unfortunately..  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Once All-Star wraps up, 'Tec will be DC's second highest selling title. Tynion isn't going anywhere. At long last, Cass and Steph  have a long-term protector. 
> 
> There are still loose plot threads with Cass and JPV, not to mention there will likely be more to Tim's story past the next arc. The team isnt going anywhere. (Although it may change)
> 
> Also, I wouldn't exactly say Tynion has been making new Steph fans. Quite the oppisite sadly.


I think Tynion may be making new Steph fans - on tumblr, I think I see some of them. The people who seem to complain the loudest about Steph are often (not always, but often) people who didn't like Steph in the first place. The people on Batman-News, for example - they complain really loudly about Steph in Tec, but they also almost always say, "I never liked Spoiler." That's not really Steph or Tynion's fault.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Yeah, people who are complaining are mostly the ones who read Tec for Batman and can't stand when someone rebels against their fave.

----------


## Fergus

> You are right, unfortunately..


I'm not a fan of what Tynion is doing with Steph but that hasn't affect my love for the character. I don't think she's losing any fans over this

----------


## Fergus

> Yeah, people who are complaining are mostly the ones who read Tec for Batman and can't stand when someone rebels against their fave.


That's untrue and unfair.

----------


## adrikito

> I'm not a fan of what Tynion is doing with Steph but that hasn't affect my love for the character. I don't think she's losing any fans over this


This is bad for make new fans but if you read ALL the RUN since the begin you can understand that something is wrong with her. This is all only for Tim death..

----------


## millernumber1

> That's untrue and unfair.


I don't have a sense of "mostly" or not, but I do think that's a very, very loud group of people who say exactly that whenever they criticize what's happening in Tec.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't have a sense of "mostly" or not, but I do think that's a very, very loud group of people who say exactly that whenever they criticize what's happening in Tec.


Wich always confuse me, Tynion is not among my favorite writters and has problems with pacing and plot, but honestly Batman hasn't come in particulary bad ligth during his whole Tec's run, neither in his abilities or as a person (he actually come across as more likable that many recent interations of the characther). It the problems is the fact that he hasn't got his own arc here, well fair enougth, but beyond that, Bruce has been charatherized just fine.

----------


## millernumber1

> Wich always confuse me, Tynion is not among my favorite writters and has problems with pacing and plot, but honestly Batman hasn't come in particulary bad ligth during his whole Tec's run, neither in his abilities or as a person (he actually come across as more likable that many recent interations of the characther). It the problems is the fact that he hasn't got his own arc here, well fair enougth, but beyond that, Bruce has been charatherized just fine.


I think it's specifically a conflict between those for whom Batman is their favorite character, and they have difficulty seeing when he is wrong or has weaknesses, and those for whom Batman is much more ambiguous - sometimes a loving father figure, sometimes a harsh antagonist to your favorite characters. Steph fans tend to be much more of the latter mindset, because War Games really crystallized the antagonistic relationship Batman can have in the hands of bad writers with his family.

----------


## adrikito

I found one fanart..

0stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I found one fanart..
> 
> 0stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg


That one's really cute - and I love the rendering. There's a real skill there!

----------


## Frontier

> I found one fanart..
> 
> 0stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg


I would love to see this actually happen in either a comic or cartoon. So cute  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## millernumber1

Lest we forget, this is a red-letter week for Steph - she appears in two different comics! Birds of Prey and Detective!

----------


## adrikito

> Lest we forget, this is a red-letter week for Steph - she appears in two different comics! Birds of Prey and Detective!


Only in the preview, no? This is Birds of Prey not Detective Comics..

----------


## millernumber1

> Only in the preview, no? This is Birds of Prey not Detective Comics..


Well, the preview of Birds of Prey is also in the actual comic...  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

> I don't have a sense of "mostly" or not, but I do think that's a very, very loud group of people who say exactly that whenever they criticize what's happening in Tec.


I have a problem with what he is doing with Steph and batman and I like everyone on that better than Batman [aside from T** ] I think it's telling that of all the characters in Tec Batman is the only one without an arc implying that he is just there to prop the rest. Batman shouldn't be a supporting character in his book.

I wouldn't like Superman to just be a supporting character in Action as much as I like Lois and Jon so I think the grips are warranted.

----------


## Assam

> I think it's telling that of all the characters in Tec Batman is the only one without an arc implying that he is just there to prop the rest.


Bruce isn't getting an arc because, at  present time, he has two other books completely dedicated to his character, along with tons of other books he's in each month. With the exception of Kate, the 'Tec team ONLY have 'Tec. And there's also the fact that of the eight team members we've had, almost all of them needed to be built back up in some form because of how they'd been screwed by the Nu52, or because they're new. Plus, if you've noticed, with the exception of the first arc, Bruce is always the 2nd most prominent member of the team. 




> Batman shouldn't be a supporting character in his book.


Much like it wasn't his book when Kate was leading the thing, it isn't his book now. As I said, there are currently several options for people who only care about Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> I have a problem with what he is doing with Steph and batman and I like everyone on that better than Batman [aside from T** ] I think it's telling that of all the characters in Tec Batman is the only one without an arc implying that he is just there to prop the rest. Batman shouldn't be a supporting character in his book.
> 
> I wouldn't like Superman to just be a supporting character in Action as much as I like Lois and Jon so I think the grips are warranted.


1) The whole "Don't name Tim" thing is really annoying.

2) Batman has been a supporting character in Detective before, for various reasons - Greg Rucka's runs are big examples. I don't think what Tynion's doing is illegitimate at all.

If you do, that's fine. I just disagree. (Also, I don't read JSA, but how is Batman handled there?)

----------


## Assam

> If you do, that's fine. I just disagree. (Also, I don't read JSA, but how is Batman handled there?)


I should have known they'd stick Batman on that JSA team that definitely exists right now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> Well, the preview of Birds of Prey is also in the actual comic...


You are right... 

But with SPOILER only in the first pages, nothing, this is a comic of burnside babs and she should be replaced for another barbara for make me fan of barbara gordon again..

----------


## millernumber1

> I should have known they'd stick Batman on that JSA team that definitely exists right now.


Whoops, meant JLA. The book that I tried and thought was incredibly bad, despite loving Black Canary.




> You are right... 
> 
> But with SPOILER only in the first pages, nothing, this is a comic of burnside babs and she should be replaced for another barbara for make me fan of barbara gordon again..


Man, all the Babsgirl boycotts. I'm not a fan of her in general being Batgirl given the stories that have been written about her since the n52, but seems kinda harsh.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

I know it was probably unintentional, but I find it ironic Steph complained about Anarky and teachable moments, when she talked about that as a positive thing in batgirl road home. Shows how different new steph is.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know it was probably unintentional, but I find it ironic Steph complained about Anarky and teachable moments, when she talked about that as a positive thing in batgirl road home. Shows how different new steph is.


Well, I don't think it's really that contradictory. 1) Steph was always interested in finding teachers, she just really disliked condescention and manipulation. Even in the Road Home issue you mention, she slaps Bruce and is irritated at his manipulation - when she mentions "teachable moments," it's to Babs, who she trusts to see her as worthwhile, and not a problem to solve. 2) Steph as Batgirl is at least two years older, one baby and "death" wiser than current Rebirth Steph.

I still think that current Steph is very much characterized like Dixon's Steph.

----------


## Assam

> I still think that current Steph is very much characterized like Dixon's Steph.


You're not wrong. It's not a perfect replica but it's pretty close. A lot of people who are only familiar with BatgirlSteph don't seem to realize how much of a departure from her previous characterization it was.

----------


## millernumber1

> You're not wrong. It's not a perfect replica but it's pretty close. A lot of people who are only familiar with BatgirlSteph don't seem to realize how much of a departure from her previous characterization it was.


I don't think Miller's Steph is so much a departure as it is a development. I think The Road Home really throws that into sharp relief, because it's so focused on how her current status fits into her continuity.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think Miller's Steph is so much a departure as it is a development. I think The Road Home really throws that into sharp relief, because it's so focused on how her current status fits into her continuity.


Oh, it's definitely development, and she's still recognizably the same person, but what I meant was that people who haven't read Dixon Steph often assume she was always like she was in her Batgirl book.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, it's definitely development, and she's still recognizably the same person, but what I meant was that people who haven't read Dixon Steph often assume she was always like she was in her Batgirl book.


There seem to be three types of Steph fans - the Dixon era, the Miller era, and the Tynion era. The Dixon era tend to miss Steph being mad when they read Miller era. The Miller era tend to like Dixon, but think it was more preamble to the main story of Steph as Batgirl. The Tynion era tend to know vaguely that Steph has history, but mostly go by covers and summaries. Wish they'd check out the Steph wiki more  :Wink:

----------


## Red obin

> Well, I don't think it's really that contradictory. 1) Steph was always interested in finding teachers, she just really disliked condescention and manipulation. Even in the Road Home issue you mention, she slaps Bruce and is irritated at his manipulation - when she mentions "teachable moments," it's to Babs, who she trusts to see her as worthwhile, and not a problem to solve. 2) Steph as Batgirl is at least two years older, one baby and "death" wiser than current Rebirth Steph.
> 
> I still think that current Steph is very much characterized like Dixon's Steph.


It seems fitting for this interpretation of the character and I didn't consider the less experienced more brash point of view you have presented. It wasn't me saying Tyniom is characterising her wrong just interesting;

I think the current Steph is very much like dixon steph and i feel like it's in character and I could see her doing something similar post war games if she did not die due to her 'rocky relationship' with Bruce over the years.

EDIT: Also I was flicking through some back issues to read today and the ones I have got over the last couple of days and ironically I realised the top two on my pile where batgirl #13 and detective comics #964, both clayface and steph issues.

----------


## Sannom

> There seem to be three types of Steph fans - the Dixon era, the Miller era, and the Tynion era. The Dixon era tend to miss Steph being mad when they read Miller era. The Miller era tend to like Dixon, but think it was more preamble to the main story of Steph as Batgirl. The Tynion era tend to know vaguely that Steph has history, but mostly go by covers and summaries. Wish they'd check out the Steph wiki more


I think the Stephanie Brown series on scans-daily is a good place to start. I know that's where I started.

I think that the Chuck Dixon/Jon Lewis (let's not forget Jon Lewis, not as good a series, a very good Steph) era fans are also strongly influenced by the relationship between Tim and Steph. Any Tim/Steph shipper would probably be biased toward that era.

----------


## millernumber1

> It seems fitting for this interpretation of the character and I didn't consider the less experienced more brash point of view you have presented. It wasn't me saying Tyniom is characterising her wrong just interesting;
> 
> I think the current Steph is very much like dixon steph and i feel like it's in character and I could see her doing something similar post war games if she did not die due to her 'rocky relationship' with Bruce over the years.
> 
> EDIT: Also I was flicking through some back issues to read today and the ones I have got over the last couple of days and ironically I realised the top two on my pile where batgirl #13 and detective comics #964, both clayface and steph issues.


I think that Tynion is very much trying to figure out how to position Steph without collapsing a bunch of idiocies like War Games on her head. So far, I'm enjoying it, but it seems to be very divisive - though again, a lot of the people who are saying they don't like it have also said in the past they don't like Steph period. Not all, but a significant number. So I have difficulty with the "Steph is so unlikeable now" narrative, just because it seems like she's being disliked by a lot of the same people who disliked her in the past, for the same reasons.




> I think the Stephanie Brown series on scans-daily is a good place to start. I know that's where I started.
> 
> I think that the Chuck Dixon/Jon Lewis (let's not forget Jon Lewis, not as good a series, a very good Steph) era fans are also strongly influenced by the relationship between Tim and Steph. Any Tim/Steph shipper would probably be biased toward that era.


Ah, my honored predecessor on the Steph wikia's series! She's a lot more positive on Jon Lewis than I am. I agree that Steph during Lewis's run was much better served in terms of panel time and fleshing out of her interests and backstory, but Lewis's plots were so horrifically bad I have difficulty with having a positive reaction to her. But I will say: a lot of the really hardcore Steph fans really love her during that time. They "eggplant, not purple", piano playing, and mashed potatoes things are all the hallmarks of a Lewis Steph fan.  :Smile: 

I am definitely a Tim/Steph shipper, very likely because of Dixon's influence on my perception of Steph's (and Tim's) characters.

----------


## Sannom

I liked the hyperwoods. That's the sort of stupid stuff I expect from comics!

Hey, speaking of various eras : what is everyone's favorite version of Steph's mother, physically or otherwise? My favorite will always be the beefy one with dark hair. It really fit the more assertive, GET-OUT-OF-MY-HOUSE! personality she started to show back then. Of course, it also meant that Stephanie apparently got everything from her father when it comes to physique, but as far as "taking the good with the bad" goes, that's a very tiny amount of bad.

The evil version from Rebirth is disappointing on two levels : we lost the supporting mother from the previous version _and_ it wasn't followed up upon at all! I want that thread dealt with, dammit!

----------


## Red obin

> I liked the hyperwoods. That's the sort of stupid stuff I expect from comics!
> 
> Hey, speaking of various eras : what is everyone's favorite version of Steph's mother, physically or otherwise? My favorite will always be the beefy one with dark hair. It really fit the more assertive, GET-OUT-OF-MY-HOUSE! personality she started to show back then. Of course, it also meant that Stephanie apparently got everything from her father when it comes to physique, but as far as "taking the good with the bad" goes, that's a very tiny amount of bad.
> 
> The evil version from Rebirth is disappointing on two levels : we lost the supporting mother from the previous version _and_ it wasn't followed up upon at all! I want that thread dealt with, dammit!


Personally, I like the caring post war games version as that is the version of crystal I am most familiar with.




> There seem to be three types of Steph fans - the Dixon era, the Miller era, and the Tynion era. The Dixon era tend to miss Steph being mad when they read Miller era. The Miller era tend to like Dixon, but think it was more preamble to the main story of Steph as Batgirl. The Tynion era tend to know vaguely that Steph has history, but mostly go by covers and summaries. Wish they'd check out the Steph wiki more


Definitely a miller-ite, although I like Dixon too and don't think it is just set up. I think Miller tried to avoid using Dixon baggage and strayed away from it mostly except in batgirl the road home.

----------


## Assam

> There seem to be three types of Steph fans - the Dixon era, the Miller era, and the Tynion era. The Dixon era tend to miss Steph being mad when they read Miller era. The Miller era tend to like Dixon, but think it was more preamble to the main story of Steph as Batgirl. The Tynion era tend to know vaguely that Steph has history, but mostly go by covers and summaries. Wish they'd check out the Steph wiki more


And then there are the people like me who fell in love with her because of Puckett. (I'm not the only one) She's very much in Dixon mode there, but still, I think there's a distinction.

----------


## millernumber1

> I liked the hyperwoods. That's the sort of stupid stuff I expect from comics!
> 
> Hey, speaking of various eras : what is everyone's favorite version of Steph's mother, physically or otherwise? My favorite will always be the beefy one with dark hair. It really fit the more assertive, GET-OUT-OF-MY-HOUSE! personality she started to show back then. Of course, it also meant that Stephanie apparently got everything from her father when it comes to physique, but as far as "taking the good with the bad" goes, that's a very tiny amount of bad.
> 
> The evil version from Rebirth is disappointing on two levels : we lost the supporting mother from the previous version _and_ it wasn't followed up upon at all! I want that thread dealt with, dammit!


My favorite, since I'm primarily a Miller-era fan, is Steph's mom while she was Batgirl. But I did like her in the later Dixon era as well.

I agree that the evil version from Rebirth is a bummer. Tynion says he wanted to make her Cluemaster II, but so far, nothing has come of that. But anything would be nice - though I want Steph back on the team first, rather than have her isolated fighting only her own mom.




> Personally, I like the caring post war games version as that is the version of crystal I am most familiar with.
> 
> Definitely a miller-ite, although I like Dixon too and don't think it is just set up. I think Miller tried to avoid using Dixon baggage and strayed away from it mostly except in batgirl the road home.


I'm really, REALLY curious to know how much Miller read before starting the series, because it feels very much like he started with detailed summaries, and possibly having read Birds of Prey (because he references Steph's "autopsy" photos and Misfit very early in the series), but as he went along, he also read a lot more background.




> And then there are the people like me who fell in love with her because of Puckett. (I'm not the only one) She's very much in Dixon mode there, but still, I think there's a distinction.


Haha. I'd have to check to see what Puckett actually wrote of her - since Peterson and Dixon wrote two of her earliest appearances in Batgirl, during the Puckett run.

----------


## Assam

> I'm really, REALLY curious to know how much Miller read before starting the series, because it feels very much like he started with detailed summaries, and possibly having read Birds of Prey (because he references Steph's "autopsy" photos and Misfit very early in the series), but as he went along, he also read a lot more background.


Considering the continuity error he made with Cass in the first issue, I'm inclined to believe he did VERY little research in general before he started writing. 




> Haha. I'd have to check to see what Puckett actually wrote of her - since Peterson and Dixon wrote two of her earliest appearances in Batgirl, during the Puckett run.


21, 27 and 28, and I KNOW you don't like 27, but I do,  21 was the issue for me where the two really became friends, and 28 (Even/especially (depending on who you ask) with its downer ending) is one of Steph's best appearances in the book.

----------


## millernumber1

> Considering the continuity error he made with Cass in the first issue, I'm inclined to believe he did VERY little research in general before he started writing. 
> 
> 21, 27 and 28, and I KNOW you don't like 27, but I do,  21 was the issue for me where the two really became friends, and 28 (Even/especially (depending on who you ask) with its downer ending) is one of Steph's best appearances in the book.


Well, I think it's not completely true that he did "very little" - but I think it's almost certain that his Cass research was summaries. The Birds of Prey detail is a pretty deep cut, I think, so there was some level of knowledge going on.

I do like 21 and 28, even if 28 feels really odd with how Steph enters and exits without much of an impact on Cass's status quo. And I really wish I could like 27 - it's actually one of the first 20 or so comics I remember reading, back in college in 2004ish - but it really biased me against Steph, and when I came back to it much, much later, after falling in love with Steph through War Games, War Crimes, Dixon's second Robin run, and then her run as Batgirl, it really doesn't work for me on a purely Steph level. On a Cass level, it works fine, and the art is gorgeous, as it is Phil Noto.  I feel like I'm one of two or three people I've met who actually dislikes it, though, so definitely in the minority.

----------


## adrikito

*Spoiler-Robin-Batgirl-Spoiler-again*

Screen Shot 684.jpg

Maybe is a good image for CHRONOLOGY in steph wiki, you can see the pre-n52 costumes and the current steph:

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology

----------


## adrikito

Cosplay

stephanie brown spoiler cosplay.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> *Spoiler-Robin-Batgirl-Spoiler-again*
> 
> Screen Shot 684.jpg
> 
> Maybe is a good image for CHRONOLOGY in steph wiki, you can see the pre-n52 costumes and the current steph:
> 
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology


I've thought about using that particular image, but decided to go with the Takara imageset because 1) it's more public, and 2) the Chronology page doesn't touch Steph's n52/Rebirth timeline.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Got anything juicy to tell us, Miller?  :Wink:  Or did Tynion ask you to keep what he said private?

----------


## millernumber1

> Got anything juicy to tell us, Miller?  Or did Tynion ask you to keep what he said private?


Still working on my writeup. Nothing super secret this time, though. But fun.

----------


## CPSparkles

runmonsterun

----------


## adrikito

> runmonsterun


GOOD IMAGE OF THE TWO "SISTERS".  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

Seems that Damian is goint to appear in FALL OF THE BATMEN... Any chance of see one Steph/Damian moment?

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems that Damian is goint to appear in FALL OF THE BATMEN... Any chance of see one Steph/Damian moment?


I saw that - I'm really curious about how Damian is going to fit into things. Hopefully more than just a quick image of him doing stuff, like there was in Batman and Robin Eternal. Some Steph/Damian bickering would be perfection!

----------


## Assam

> I saw that - I'm really curious about how Damian is going to fit into things. Hopefully more than just a quick image of him doing stuff, like there was in Batman and Robin Eternal. Some Steph/Damian bickering would be perfection!


Wait, I didn't see this. Link?

----------


## Caivu

> Wait, I didn't see this. Link?


Screenshot_20170928-114842.jpg

From Raul Fernandez's IG.

----------


## millernumber1

NINJA'D!  :Smile:  That means we're getting some Alvaro Martinez! My fave!

----------


## Assam

http://secretlystephaniebrown.tumblr...nt-the-same-as

Very interesting post. I can't say I disagree with most of what's said here.

----------


## millernumber1

> http://secretlystephaniebrown.tumblr...nt-the-same-as
> 
> Very interesting post. I can't say I disagree with most of what's said here.


Very interesting, indeed. I agree with, I think, about 30% of it. Working on a longform response, which I will crosspost here.

----------


## millernumber1

Welp, I got a bit long, so I won't crosspost the whole text here. The essay is here: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1658...ge-chunk-of-it

TL, DR: Steph's anger is more circumstantial than defining; Steph's relationship with Tim is important in good ways and not just negative ones; Steph's current arc in Detective is about her having agency - yes, she makes the wrong choices, but she is making choices, and not being fired or told to stop all the time. A character who has her own story gets to make wrong choices without being punished for them, and that's what I think Tynion is doing with Steph: giving her the right to be wrong, and to find her way back without shame.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

To me, the biggest problem with Miller's run is that it basically disregards all the growth Steph had pre-War Games-which to be fair, Wargames did as well.  Her complicated motivations were dismissed as nothing more than a need for approval.  Her entire past was depicted as nothing more than a single giant screwup.  Her skills were dismissed despite her having extremely impressive feats before she started receiving any training, to the point where even Batman had acknowledged she was more inherently skilled as a fighter than Tim was under Dixon.  And Miller had that running joke about her not being able to sew despite her having been shown making her Spoiler costume through sewing.

I understand why they did that.  The initial mistake of War Games' existence couldn't be swept under the rug.  But that doesn't make the dismissal of 15 years of history as nothing but screw-ups any less irritating.

With current Steph, the biggest problem is that everything important happens off-panel or without the proper build-up.  I thought her handling in Eternal was great, and her use in Catwoman was also good.  The full-page spread of her punching Lincoln March going 'I'm Batman' was a cathartic moment.  But her current arc needed to have her relationships with Bruce and Tim built up before tearing them down.  In a new continuity she doesn't need to have the exact same traits and history of the pre-reboot Steph.  But development can't be rushed or skipped over.

----------


## adrikito

One fanart of our batgirl

stephanie brown batgirl.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> To me, the biggest problem with Miller's run is that it basically disregards all the growth Steph had pre-War Games-which to be fair, Wargames did as well.  Her complicated motivations were dismissed as nothing more than a need for approval.  Her entire past was depicted as nothing more than a single giant screwup.  Her skills were dismissed despite her having extremely impressive feats before she started receiving any training, to the point where even Batman had acknowledged she was more inherently skilled as a fighter than Tim was under Dixon.  And Miller had that running joke about her not being able to sew despite her having been shown making her Spoiler costume through sewing.
> 
> I understand why they did that.  The initial mistake of War Games' existence couldn't be swept under the rug.  But that doesn't make the dismissal of 15 years of history as nothing but screw-ups any less irritating.
> 
> With current Steph, the biggest problem is that everything important happens off-panel or without the proper build-up.  I thought her handling in Eternal was great, and her use in Catwoman was also good.  The full-page spread of her punching Lincoln March going 'I'm Batman' was a cathartic moment.  But her current arc needed to have her relationships with Bruce and Tim built up before tearing them down.  In a new continuity she doesn't need to have the exact same traits and history of the pre-reboot Steph.  But development can't be rushed or skipped over.


I think you're partially right there. Miller's general approach was that Spoiler was good hearted but incompetent - stuff like "Is this why people hated Spoiler?" is definitely a bit annoying. But it wasn't just War Games - for at least two years before she "died," Steph was portrayed as incompetent on the whole, in Gotham Knights, and in Robin.  The sewing gag was silly, but so much was tangled about Steph's history between War Games and Batgirl - her weird invisibility powers, the entire retcon about Africa.  And outside of Dixon probably wanting to show her as competent and heroic (but mostly in the Robin Spoiler Special, because she didn't get a solid showing before then for mystery's sake), FabNic mostly showed her as screwing up some more in Robin.

I think a team book necessitates hitting high points in character relationships. I would personally love to have seen Steph's relationship grow with Bruce and Tim (and Cass!) over a year or more, but that wasn't allowed in the Rebirth timeline, and I'd rather have what we have now than Steph with, say, just a crush on Tim.

All in all, it's not a perfect situation that we're in as Steph fans with Rebirth, but I think it's much better than what we had in Batman and Robin Eternal (which even though I feel like I liked it more than most fans, is still much inferior to Batman Eternal) and Batgirl and even Catwoman, where she was just a supporting character without any real arc.

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat Family by afterlife

----------


## millernumber1

> Bat Family by http://axeeeee.tumblr.com/


I love that Steph is smiling.

----------


## adrikito

> Bat Family by afterlife



GOOD IMAGES.  :Cool:   :Cool:

----------


## Caivu

Sneak peek at BBoP #15:

IMG_20171004_152802.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Sneak peek at BBoP #15:
> 
> IMG_20171004_152802.jpg


Oh, now that's very exciting. Still pretty bummed that Steph isn't appearing in Red Hood and the Outlaws (though Cass looks like she'll get some fun snark), but having her show up with Cass and Kate in Birds of Prey is pretty cool!

----------


## adrikito

> Sneak peek at BBoP #15:
> 
> IMG_20171004_152802.jpg


Thank you.

----------


## Caivu

Spoiler was voted Character of the Month on r/Batman for October. The theme was "most fun".

----------


## adrikito

> Spoiler was voted Character of the Month on r/Batman for October. The theme was "most fun".


*r/Batman?? REDDIT?*  :Confused: 

Most Fun? I am not surprised..   :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Spoiler was voted Character of the Month on r/Batman for October. The theme was "most fun".


Nice! Maybe I must follow this reddit now.  :Smile: 




> *r/Batman?? REDDIT?* 
> 
> Most Fun? I am not surprised..


Indeed! What is more fun than having a bad case of the Stephs?

----------


## adrikito

OK, is reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comm..._october_2017/

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_lfihy5hK201qde18do1_500.jpg
This is just adorable.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_lr9s3tf3Zj1qcs3pdo1_500.jpg
So Tim's priorities are:
1) Steph
2) The Redbird
3) Bruce, Dick and Alfred
4)Friends and school.
I see nothing wrong with this chart  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> tumblr_lr9s3tf3Zj1qcs3pdo1_500.jpg
> So Tim's priorities are:
> 1) Steph
> 2) The Redbird
> 3) Bruce, Dick and Alfred
> 4)Friends and school.
> *I see nothing wrong with this chart*


THE SAME.. NOTHING IS WRONG.. In thas flashback of Steph(in one of the last chapters of detective comics), he admitted that she is important in his future too.. NOTHING CHANGED.

----------


## adrikito

Steph in one future issue:

DLjdGDHUIAAkrgM.jpg

SOURCE:

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/scott-s...teased-at-nycc

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph in one future issue:
> 
> DLjdGDHUIAAkrgM.jpg
> 
> SOURCE:
> 
> http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/scott-s...teased-at-nycc


First time we've seen a Future Steph outside of Batgirl #24, that I can recall. She was dead during most of the Titans Tomorrow storylines. Oh, I guess she was in that weird future Justice Leage/Society (I can't remember) story by Willingham.

----------


## adrikito

Is Justice Society of America, She appeared in issue #39, 20 years later and with Mr. Terrific, Tim Drake and others heroes help JSA to stop the Nazis.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/steph...own/4005-6156/

This should be  one Post-Tim return Steph image because she is in the batcave.

----------


## millernumber1

> Is Justice Society of America, She appeared in issue #39, 20 years later and with Mr. Terrific, Tim Drake and others heroes help JSA to stop the Nazis.
> 
> https://comicvine.gamespot.com/steph...own/4005-6156/
> 
> This should be  one Post-Tim return Steph image because she is in the batcave.


http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...f_America_(39)

Yup. It was an odd one.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Steph is in the preview(the previous image).. This is before Oz kidnapped this batman tomorrow Tim:

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...ve-comics-966/

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph is in the preview(the previous image).. This is before Oz kidnapped this batman tomorrow Tim:
> 
> http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...ve-comics-966/


Interesting that this Future Steph is working with the Justice League. Seems to indicate that she gets over her problems with costumed heroes.

Wish we had that now.  :Smile:  (I know, I defend it all the time, but it is aggravating to have her excluded from so many things).

----------


## adrikito

> Interesting that this Future Steph is working with the Justice League. Seems to indicate that she gets over her problems with costumed heroes.
> 
> Wish we had that now.  (I know, I defend it all the time, but it is aggravating to have her excluded from so many things).


As I imaginated STEPH can´t support this things..

*So... Anarky and maybe the Victim Syndicate are the responsibles of this..*

----------


## millernumber1

> As I imaginated STEPH can´t support this things..


I wonder, though - what would Future Dark Steph look like? Would it be the Tyrrany of the Waffles? Everyone must wear purple at all times?  :Wink:

----------


## TheCape

Is not purple, is eggplant :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Is not purple, is eggplant


I'm one of the few Steph fans who challenges this. It's only eggplant in some colorations (and not my favorites). Besides, we now have confirmation by Steph herself that her costume is violet (Batgirl #50) or purple (Batman and Robin Eternal #2).  :Smile: 

(I say this as someone who still finds the Jon Lewis run incredibly bizarre.)

----------


## TheCape

Oh, i was just joking, it always has been purple for me, i just find that affirmation funny. Also, i agreed i'm reading the run and the first villain was soooo weird.

----------


## adrikito

> I wonder, though - what would Future Dark Steph look like? Would it be the Tyrrany of the Waffles? Everyone must wear purple at all times?


HAHAHAHAHHAA.. For the preview we know that she isn´t the *Waffle Queen* of Gotham.. 


With the chance of more Steph I will continue with this future but Oz kidnapped him..

----------


## Assam

Violet, purple, eggplant...while I do really enjoy the eggplant gag, I always think of how it was colored in Cass's book (Because of course), which more often than not depicted the suit as pink.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, i was just joking, it always has been purple for me, i just find that affirmation funny. Also, i agreed i'm reading the run and the first villain was soooo weird.


The joke is pretty funny. And there are some cases where it was eggplant - the Robin 80 Page Giant definitely has that (http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki..._80_Page_Giant).

Batwoman fans will find a very...different version of Nocturna in Jon Lewis's run on Robin.




> HAHAHAHAHHAA.. For the preview we know that she isn´t the *Waffle Queen* of Gotham.. 
> 
> With the chance of more Steph I will continue with this future..


But she should be the Waffle Queen of Gotham, just as she's the Waffle Queen of my heart.  :Wink: 




> Violet, purple, eggplant...while I do really enjoy the eggplant gag, I always think of how it was colored in Cass's book (Because of course), which more often than not depicted the suit as pink.


I thought it was more lavander?

----------


## Frontier

> Interesting that this Future Steph is working with the Justice League. *Seems to indicate that she gets over her problems with costumed heroes.*
> 
> Wish we had that now.  (I know, I defend it all the time, but it is aggravating to have her excluded from so many things).


Or she was just biased against Gotham vigilante's, since she never acknowledged the fact that practically every city in the DCU needs Superheroes and costumed vigilante's  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Batwoman fans will find a very...different version of Nocturna in Jon Lewis's run on Robin.


Weird as they'd find Lewis's run, they'd probably find Pre-Crisis Nocturna even more surprising. 




> I thought it was more lavander?


I dunno, I think it's a bit too bright to be lavender. It was lavender on the cover of #20, but I think that's it.

----------


## adrikito

You are talking about Steph colors... In my opinion NO MATTER.. If these colors are not strange for her, for example THE GREEN..




> Interesting that this Future Steph is working with the Justice League. Seems to indicate that she gets over her problems with costumed heroes.
> 
> Wish we had that now.  (I know, I defend it all the time, but it is aggravating to have her excluded from so many things).


Maybe Steph is the league ORACLE... Barbara one police.

*There are chances of see more... This is the old Batwoman future with Bat-Tim.. one chance of see more of this Steph..*

----------


## millernumber1

> Or she was just biased against Gotham vigilante's, since she never acknowledged the fact that practically every city in the DCU needs Superheroes and costumed vigilante's .


True. But since Batman was on the league, even if this universe's Bruce is dead, I think the indication is clear that she's gotten clearer in her thinking.




> I dunno, I think it's a bit too bright to be lavender. It was lavender on the cover of #20, but I think that's it.


I dunno. I've just never really accepted "pink" as one of Steph's colors.  :Smile: 




> You are talking about Steph colors... In my opinion NO MATTER.. If these colors are not strange for her, for example THE GREEN..
> 
> Maybe Steph is the league ORACLE... Barbara one police.
> 
> *There are chances of see more... This is the old Batwoman future with Bat-Tim.. one chance of see more of this Steph..*


I've read some solid fics for Steph as Oracle. I think she'd make a pretty solid one.

The Green and Red and Yellow is a good color for Steph...  :Wink: 

You bring up a really good point - maybe the Steph flash-forward or Back that we saw in Batwoman Rebirth was from this future!

----------


## adrikito

> The Green and Red and Yellow is a good color for Steph... 
> 
> You bring up a really good point - maybe the Steph flash-forward or Back that we saw in Batwoman Rebirth was from this future!


Maybe the bad colors don´t exist, only colors that make your character strange in your eyes..

Comissioner Montoya and Tim is Batman... Is the same Future.

----------


## adrikito

No one can doubt now that I am Steph fan.. If that people saw my new* profile picture:
*
stephanie brown damian wayne.jpg

I replaced my old image with Batman for this image.

----------


## millernumber1

> No one can doubt now that I am Steph fan.. If that people saw my profile picture:
> 
> stephanie brown damian wayne.jpg
> 
> I replaced my old image with Batman for this image.


I love that scene, and the Steph and Damian relationship. "Boring conversation anyway."  :Wink:

----------


## sakuyamons

> I love that scene, and the Steph and Damian relationship. "Boring conversation anyway."


Their relationship was the best  :Stick Out Tongue:  a shame it was retconned.

----------


## millernumber1

> Their relationship was the best  a shame it was retconned.


Such a shame. I desperately want SOMEONE to write the two of them in a scene again, interacting.

----------


## adrikito

> I love that scene, and the Steph and Damian relationship. "Boring conversation anyway."


Maybe bored.. But good scene.

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe bored.. But good scene.


No, I was not bored. Damian was pretending to be bored to avoid admitting his argument was wrong (and also quoting Star Wars)  :Smile:

----------


## DamianBane

I feel like Stephanie is so underrated  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> I feel like Stephanie is so underrated


She is underrated by many people! However, here in the Steph appreciation thread, we all think she's amazing! Welcome!

----------


## millernumber1

2017-09-23 15.43.32.jpg
2017-09-23 15.43.36.jpg

Some really fun Steph cosplay I saw at Baltimore Comic Con this year! I approve of the glasses.

----------


## Frontier

> Attachment 56189
> Attachment 56190
> 
> Some really fun Steph cosplay I saw at Baltimore Comic Con this year! I approve of the glasses.


It'd be pretty funny if she still wore those with the full face-mask  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> It'd be pretty funny if she still wore those with the full face-mask .


I'm pretty sure that would be Even Moar Kool!  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> Attachment 56189
> Attachment 56190
> 
> Some really fun Steph cosplay I saw at Baltimore Comic Con this year! I approve of the glasses.


Good.. Look people one underrated character and you can see cosplays of all Steph costumes(spoiler, robin and batgirl), without matter the era. Even the most recents... and she will be in YOUNG JUSTICE..

This is one of my favorites Spoiler Steph cosplays, I like that smile, Spoiler is one funny character.

----------


## millernumber1

> Good.. Look people one underrated character and you can see cosplays of all Steph costumes(spoiler, robin and batgirl), without matter the era. Even the most recents... and she will be in YOUNG JUSTICE..
> 
> This is one of my favorites Steph cosplays, I like that smile.


Steph should be smiling most of the time. ::

----------


## adrikito

> Steph should be smiling most of the time. ::


Of course..

----------


## millernumber1

As Dustin Nguyen says: http://duss005.tumblr.com/post/87471...r-batgirl-with

_When I first started on covers for Batgirl with Bryan, his one request was to always have Steph smiling, even in uncertain times. Here’s our little Batgirl swinging off to her last issue. Thanks everyone for the support, I was only on for a few issues, but am proud to have been a part of Bryan’s team._

tumblr_lpqd6prnVG1qh2lw2o1_500.jpg

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_inline_n3oz4e1kQ01scvvcr.jpg
I'm not the biggest Tim/Steph shipper but damm me if the art isn't cute (also i headcanon that this was what the 2 were thinking when they got together :Smile: ).

----------


## millernumber1

> tumblr_inline_n3oz4e1kQ01scvvcr.jpg
> I'm not the biggest Tim/Steph shipper but damm me if the art isn't cute (also i headcanon that this was what the 2 were thinking when they got together).


That's such a cute piece. I AM a huge TimSteph shipper, and this is the kind of thing that makes me very happy.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> That's such a cute piece. I AM a huge TimSteph shipper, and this is the kind of thing that makes me very happy.


I knew that it would  :Smile: , me personally i liked it but i'm not particuralry crazy about it. Althougth, i'm curious, why do you like it so much.

----------


## millernumber1

> I knew that it would , me personally i liked it but i'm not particuralry crazy about it. Althougth, i'm curious, why do you like it so much.


One of my first real exposures to Steph was in War Games (haha), and the way Devin Grayson wrote her being in love with Tim really made a big impact for me in terms of who Steph is. When she came back, the way Dixon wrote her and then the artists drew the famous kiss that Tim gives her when she unmasks, then the romantic tension in the Robin/Spoiler Special cemented the relationship as key to who Steph was in my brain. It's actually one of my only real criticisms of Steph's run as Batgirl - much as Steph's relationship with Cass was damaged in that series, so too was her relationship with Tim.

----------


## TheCape

Huh, so Devin Grayson did something good in the bat titles (i love his Titans, but the rest of her work is not very good). Thanks for your thoughts. Red Robin was when Tim was becoming into something akin tona darker Batman, but at the very least Tim said that he was proud of her.

----------


## adrikito

> As Dustin Nguyen says: http://duss005.tumblr.com/post/87471...r-batgirl-with
> 
> _When I first started on covers for Batgirl with Bryan, his one request was to always have Steph smiling, even in uncertain times. Here’s our little Batgirl swinging off to her last issue. Thanks everyone for the support, I was only on for a few issues, but am proud to have been a part of Bryan’s team._
> 
> tumblr_lpqd6prnVG1qh2lw2o1_500.jpg


Excellent emotional words, thank you Bryan..  :Cool:  I like see her smiling too.. Even in one burnside I could see how amazing is her, I enjoyed the few chapters of burnside with Spoiler... 

I WAS SMILING IN BURNSIDE? I hate this place.. Steph was the reason.. * THIS CHARACTER GIVES ME HOPE, EVEN IN THE WORST PLACES.* If you see her SAD, something horrible is happening..

I am not surprised that Steph Batgirl was a great era for the character, even her Batgirl team respected her..





> tumblr_inline_n3oz4e1kQ01scvvcr.jpg
> I'm not the biggest Tim/Steph shipper but damm me if the art isn't cute (also i headcanon that this was what the 2 were thinking when they got together).


My opinion is... If he can make happy her.. I will accept this.. Maybe with another boyfriend the things end bad..

----------


## TheCape

Steph should open an association to help people in love with obnoxiusly lonely bats Kory, Selina and Ted Kord can join (if you don't believe that Steph is in love with Tim she still needs help with Cass :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## millernumber1

> Huh, so Devin Grayson did something good in the bat titles (i love his Titans, but the rest of her work is not very good). Thanks for your thoughts. Red Robin was when Tim was becoming into something akin tona darker Batman, but at the very least Tim said that he was proud of her.


I generally like Grayson, but that's probably because I've never been a big Nightwing fan.

I'm still sad there weren't more crossovers between Batgirl and Red Robin.




> Steph should open an association to help people in love with obnoxiusly lonely bats Kory, Selina and Ted Kord can join (if you don't believe that Steph is in love with Tim she still needs help with Cass).


Don't forget Detective Gage!

----------


## TheCape

> I generally like Grayson, but that's probably because I've never been a big Nightwing fan.
> 
> I'm still sad there weren't more crossovers between Batgirl and Red Robin.


I like her Titans run and she did have some nice moments on the bat books (she also did some of my favorite interactions beetween Donna and Dick), but she also do some stuff that looks cute in isolation, but when you get into it, is kinf of occ (like that issue of Gotham Knigths when Bruce annoyed other people because he feels alone after Alfred leaving him), she also also a fangirl, so you can see a lot Bruce/Dick subtext. I could get into more but i went overboard already.




> Don't forget Detective Gage!


He is on the list :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> I like her Titans run and she did have some nice moments on the bat books (she also did some of my favorite interactions beetween Donna and Dick), but she also do some stuff that looks cute in isolation, but when you get into it, is kinf of occ (like that issue of Gotham Knigths when Bruce annoyed other people because he feels alone after Alfred leaving him), she also also a fangirl, so you can see a lot Bruce/Dick subtext. I could get into more but i went overboard already.
> 
> He is on the list


Well, I think I missed a bunch of those things because of my not reading Nightwing. I like how she wrote Steph and Bruce's relationship, so I have a perhaps overly positive view of her.

----------


## sakuyamons

I heard Spoiler appeared in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey? Is anyone reading that book? ;p

----------


## Assam

> I heard Spoiler appeared in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey? Is anyone reading that book? ;p


I am for this arc. 

Cass, Steph, Kate and Claire showed up to help the Birds and Sirens with a truly stupid plot. They haven't done anything yet, but the book is really, REALLY bad. 

The things I'll read for Cass...

----------


## sakuyamons

> I am for this arc. 
> 
> Cass, Steph, Kate and Claire showed up to help the Birds and Sirens with a truly stupid plot. They haven't done anything yet, but the book is really, REALLY bad. 
> 
> The things I'll read for Cass...


I read the first arc and it seemed acceptable to me, sure, it’s not Simone, but it was decent enough. I had problems with the art at first though.

It’s nice that Cass is showing up in other places than tec though  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I read the first arc and it seemed acceptable to me, sure, it’s not Simone, but it was decent enough. I had problems with the art at first though.
> 
> It’s nice that Cass is showing up in other places than tec though


Based on scans I've seen of the first arc, it REALLY pissed me off. 

And the writing here I found to be on the level of a bad fanfic. 

The plot is something I've seen similar things to in Justice League animated and Power Rangers, and plenty of other kids shows, with all the men being put out of commission so the girls have to unite. This is a REALLY bad reason for a team-up IMO, and  the set-up here is that there's a disease that only affects men, which is straight out of the aforementioned JL episode and that's really damn dumb. 

Also, the timeline continues to be kicked in the groin. Steph is wearing her full mask and is working with Kate and Cass, Selina hasn't accepted Bruce's proposal yet and is stealing jewelry, Ollie is on good terms with (poorly written) Dinah, Harley is with the Joker; this IS a bad fanfic! 

And while its always nice to see Cass included, FakeBabs or not, you can't put the two of them in the same book for once and NOT give them at least a  single meaningful scene together. If they don't by the end of this, I will be pissed, especially after the Bensons hyped it up.

----------


## The Whovian

> I am for this arc. 
> 
> Cass, Steph, Kate and Claire showed up to help the Birds and Sirens with a truly stupid plot. They haven't done anything yet, but the book is really, REALLY bad. 
> 
> The things I'll read for Cass...


LOL!! Same here. I read these just because of Cass, and you're right, it's bad. Far, far cry from the great Gail Simone BOP run.

----------


## millernumber1

> I heard Spoiler appeared in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey? Is anyone reading that book? ;p


Well, I enjoy Birds of Prey, but I do think it's fanfic level. Now, I like fanfic, and I like most of the artists they're picking, but it's definitely not going to be remembered.

So far, Steph has shown up and been mostly on the same page as Cass, which I enjoy.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I enjoy Birds of Prey, but I do think it's fanfic level. Now, I like fanfic, and I like most of the artists they're picking, but it's definitely not going to be remembered..


See, I specifically specified "bad" fanfic, because I think there are some (though definitely a small minority) truly great fanfic writers, and plenty that I'd still say have some chops.

----------


## millernumber1

> See, I specifically specified "bad" fanfic, because I think there are some (though definitely a small minority) truly great fanfic writers, and plenty that I'd still say have some chops.


I think it's standard fanfic. I don't think it's especially bad, but it's not especially good, either. Unfortunately, the things I think it does well (paying attention to continuity, enthusiasm for the characters) are dragged down by consistently easy resolutions to hard problems, and a lack of really solid voicing for the characters. Simone was never the best at voices, but she did a really solid job with plotting for her first run (not so much for the second run).

----------


## Frontier

I can kind of see where the "fanfic" comments are coming from, especially with the references to the Simone run and how things arebintegrated into the book, but they're handled in such a way that feels professional or solid enough to not be fan-fiction. If that makes any sense  :Stick Out Tongue: .

But then again practically anything in a comic can be derided as "fan-fiction" to some extent or another, so what it really comes down to is the quality of the writing (which can be subjective from person to person).

----------


## millernumber1

> I can kind of see where the "fanfic" comments are coming from, especially with the references to the Simone run and how things arebintegrated into the book, but they're handled in such a way that feels professional or solid enough to not be fan-fiction. If that makes any sense .
> 
> But then again practically anything in a comic can be derided as "fan-fiction" to some extent or another, so what it really comes down to is the quality of the writing (which can be subjective from person to person).


I mean, yes, the Bensons are clearly working within the guidelines of DC - which you're also right about, is basically fanfic for ALL of their characters. Things like character depth/exploration, plotting density and coherency, and character voicing put the Bensons on a fairly low level of the professional writing level, I think. I think the vitriol being hurled at Birds of Prey is unwarranted - but I would say that it's not the title I'd hoped when I started collecting it. I'd hoped for another Dixon or Simone level run, but so far, it's just what some forums term "comfy" - it provides our favorite characters with nice warm fuzzy feeling moments without much complexity in the plotting or character development.

----------


## Assam

> I think it's standard fanfic. I don't think it's especially bad, but it's not especially good, either. Unfortunately, the things I think it does well (paying attention to continuity, enthusiasm for the characters) are dragged down by consistently easy resolutions to hard problems, and a lack of really solid voicing for the characters. Simone was never the best at voices, but she did a really solid job with plotting for her first run (not so much for the second run).


I actually disagree with you about Simone's voices. While she got much better with them in Secret Six, her main cast were all still well written and distinct from one another IMO. Especially Zinda. There's only ONE Zinda.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Character voices and how distinct they are from each other, in my experience, can be a very subjective thing. 

Especially for the more...operatic writers.

----------


## millernumber1

> I actually disagree with you about Simone's voices. While she got much better with them in Secret Six, her main cast were all still well written and distinct from one another IMO. Especially Zinda. There's only ONE Zinda.


I mean, you're right that Simone can do a solid "extreme" voice like Creote or Lady Blackhawk (though Zinda is partially a cheat, since a lot of what makes her voice her own is catchphrases) or Misfit. But I think that her trio of main characters - Helena, Babs, and Dinah, tend to have a bit of difficulty in being told apart. Dinah's probably the most distinct, since I feel that Simone loves her the most (I disregard everything she says about loving Babs the most - Dinah's character gets the most arcs, and has the most detailed research evident in her dialogue and actions) - you can generally tell she's the sweetest/most warm of the main Birds - but even then, it's hit or miss. When she comes back in the Spy Smasher arc, her speech to Katrina sounds pretty identical in voicing to Babs's speech to Brainiac.




> Character voices and how distinct they are from each other, in my experience, can be a very subjective thing. 
> 
> Especially for the more...operatic writers.


It's true, but I think there's a distinct difference between someone whose character pretty much all sound exactly the same, and someone whose characters are instantly recognizable because of how they're saying things (not just what they're saying). I'm biased because one of my favorite books of literary criticism is "Computation into Criticism" by J. F. Barrows, which feeds all six of Jane Austen's novels into a computer (in 1968!) and analyzes the usage of "non-lexical" words - that is, the most common words like "I" "me" "and" "us" etc, and shows that Austen was a master of voicing on a statistical level. Her characters can be distinguished on a syntactical level through statistics because she understood how they thought and changed over time so deeply as a great literary genius.

That being said, though Brian Q. Miller does tend to have the "TV writers problem" of wanting everyone to sound witty and fun, I think he does a pretty solid job of differentiating his main character voices. I think his Babs, Steph, Wendy, and Damian are all pretty solidly distinct, and in Smallville Season 11, probably partly because he had 10 seasons of actors' performances to pull from, I think he did a really excellent job of putting together different voices.

----------


## TheCape

For me, every series that is not written by the original creator is fanfiction, is just that the quality varies :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> For me, every series that is not written by the original creator is fanfiction, is just that the quality varies.


I mean, there's a real sense in which you're right. I would even argue that something like the Aeneid qualifies by some definitions. But it's especially tricky with something like Batman, where the writers very from a Frank Miller in Year One to Tony Daniel just before Flashpoint. Thankfully, Steph has had three writers with really strong voices for her - Dixon, Miller, and Tynion - and I live in hope that we'll find another someday to make her Batgirl and Robin again.

----------


## Assam

> When she comes back in the Spy Smasher arc, her speech to Katrina sounds pretty identical in voicing to Babs's speech to Brainiac.


I disagree overall, but I definitely see what you mean here. Also, I think this is the most negative I've heard you in regards to Simone's BoP. 





> It's true, but I think there's a distinct difference between someone whose character pretty much all sound exactly the same, and someone whose characters are instantly recognizable because of how they're saying things (not just what they're saying). I'm biased because one of my favorite books of literary criticism is "Computation into Criticism" by J. F. Barrows, which feeds all six of Jane Austen's novels into a computer (in 1968!) and analyzes the usage of "non-lexical" words - that is, the most common words like "I" "me" "and" "us" etc, and shows that Austen was a master of voicing on a statistical level. Her characters can be distinguished on a syntactical level through statistics because she understood how they thought and changed over time so deeply as a great literary genius.


Hmm. Now I wonder how the main cast of my web serial would stack up to that analysis.

----------


## millernumber1

> I disagree overall, but I definitely see what you mean here. Also, I think this is the most negative I've heard you in regards to Simone's BoP. 
> 
> Hmm. Now I wonder how the main cast of my web serial would stack up to that analysis.


I don't mean to be overly negative. I ADORE Simone's first run of Birds of Prey. It's one of my very first comics loves. I just think one should maintain a certain amount of critical distance even from things you love.

I'm not sure I can do that for Steph on the whole, though. I can critique certain stories with Steph in them, but Steph...there's not a lot of critical distance there for me.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

BATFAMILY:

batfamily.jpg

Cass is timid

----------


## Red obin

> I'm one of the few Steph fans who challenges this. It's only eggplant in some colorations (and not my favorites). Besides, we now have confirmation by Steph herself that her costume is violet (Batgirl #50) or purple (Batman and Robin Eternal #2). 
> 
> (I say this as someone who still finds the Jon Lewis run incredibly bizarre.)


Yeah, I only ever say her costume is eggplant if I ironically call her the eggplant avenger.

----------


## Chickfighter

> I just think one should maintain a certain amount of critical distance even from things you love. I'm not sure I can do that for Steph on the whole, though. I can critique certain stories with Steph in them, but Steph...there's not a lot of critical distance there for me.


That's definitely me when it comes to Steph. But I so enjoyed the Miller run I'm still struggling a bit with Tynion's take. But that's the problem with having a favorite comic come and go. You start comparing everything to that gold standard of what you want and that's almost guaranteed to be a fail. I loved the original Courtney Whitmore in the Johns Stars and STRIPE run as well, but have had my interest in her wane over the years since.

----------


## Assam

> I loved the original Courtney Whitmore in the Johns Stars and STRIPE run as well, but have had my interest in her wane over the years since.


Bloody Hell someone else who read Stars and STRIPE! That book is so underrated, and I feel it's actually one of Johns' better works. I wouldn't say my interest in Courtney has waned, as I did like how she continued to develop in JSA and like most of my favorite characters, I haven't read anything new with them in a long time because f**k the Nu52.  If the JSA are a hit when they come back, I'd love it if they relaunched JSA All-Stars with just Courtney leading Jakeem, Maxine, Tommy and Jennifer.

----------


## millernumber1

> BATFAMILY:
> 
> batfamily.jpg
> 
> Cass is timid


That's adorbs!




> That's definitely me when it comes to Steph. But I so enjoyed the Miller run I'm still struggling a bit with Tynion's take. But that's the problem with having a favorite comic come and go. You start comparing everything to that gold standard of what you want and that's almost guaranteed to be a fail. I loved the original Courtney Whitmore in the Johns Stars and STRIPE run as well, but have had my interest in her wane over the years since.


Yeah, I recently wrote a long, long essay about how Steph's run as Batgirl by BQM was normative to how I see Steph (http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1658...ge-chunk-of-it). But I think Tynion is doing some really fun stuff, and barring an actual return to the pre-Flashpoint continuity, I'll take it.

----------


## Frontier

> BATFAMILY:
> 
> batfamily.jpg
> 
> Cass is timid


So adorable  :Embarrassment: .



> That's definitely me when it comes to Steph. But I so enjoyed the Miller run I'm still struggling a bit with Tynion's take. But that's the problem with having a favorite comic come and go. You start comparing everything to that gold standard of what you want and that's almost guaranteed to be a fail. I loved the original Courtney Whitmore in the Johns Stars and STRIPE run as well, but have had my interest in her wane over the years since.





> Bloody Hell someone else who read Stars and STRIPE! That book is so underrated, and I feel it's actually one of Johns' better works. I wouldn't say my interest in Courtney has waned, as I did like how she continued to develop in JSA and like most of my favorite characters, I haven't read anything new with them in a long time because f**k the Nu52.  If the JSA are a hit when they come back, I'd love it if they relaunched JSA All-Stars with just Courtney leading Jakeem, Maxine, Tommy and Jennifer.


Stargirl's been pretty awesome on _Justice League Action_, so I've been happy to be getting my Courtney fix there  :Smile: .

(She was pretty wasted on _Legends of Tomorrow_. But then again the JSA in general were on that show).

----------


## Red obin

http://www.cbr.com/stephanie-brown-batgirl-dc-rebirth/

CBR just posted this and I am yet to read it.

EDIT: Its sweet and informative for those unfamiliar with the run but otherwise your run of the mill CBR article.

----------


## adrikito

> http://www.cbr.com/stephanie-brown-batgirl-dc-rebirth/
> 
> CBR just posted this and I am yet to read it.
> 
> EDIT: Its sweet and informative for those unfamiliar with the run but otherwise your run of the mill CBR article.


The comic was about the two.. But like the batgirl tittle, Barbara even is now friend of Supergirl, Steph old friend.. 

Even if she is a veteran hero.. Barbara is like on adolescent now... I can´t see her superior to supergirl...

----------


## millernumber1

> http://www.cbr.com/stephanie-brown-batgirl-dc-rebirth/
> 
> CBR just posted this and I am yet to read it.
> 
> EDIT: Its sweet and informative for those unfamiliar with the run but otherwise your run of the mill CBR article.


Solid article, though it's more impressionistic and doesn't talk about Steph's accomplishments or history that much. And skips my favorite artists on the series, Pere Perez and Dustin Nguyen. Ah, well. The hardcore Steph fan always has the nits to pick with general audience articles. I should be happy she's getting nice, unprompted articles like this tying her to the current continuity.

And how much would I pay for a Batgirls series about the three Batgirls? Oh, man.




> The comic was about the two.. But like the batgirl tittle, Barbara even is now friend of Supergirl, Steph old friend.. 
> 
> Even if she is a veteran hero.. Barbara is like on adolescent now... I can´t see her superior to supergirl...


The whole Batgirl and Supergirl crossover just didn't do much for me (though I only really read the Annual about it, because I loathe Orlando's writing). This Supergirl is so inexperienced, whereas when she was Steph's friend, she was the more seasoned hero.

----------


## adrikito

You understand that?

Stephanie brown batgirl barbara gordon.jpg

*spoilers:*

She is really SPOILER... *She knew about BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY(a prophecy), BEFORE N52 AND REBIRTH. even before DC.. * 
*end of spoilers*

That image is of this video called *STEPHANIE BROWN/BATGIRL:SMILE*

----------


## millernumber1

Inspired by a conversation with Assam recently, I reread all of Fabian Nicieza's writing for Steph after she came back from Africa (Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20), and boy am I glad that Steph got to be Batgirl under BQM's pen, instead of staying in FabNic's titles as a supporting character. Because the writing for Steph was really incoherent. She's hiring villains to do non-lethal things to make Tim better - which is an impossibly vague goal anyway - and decides to use sex appeal to get away from one of Tim's teenage foes. She also has a few awkward school scenes to make Tim's relationship with his girlfriend Zo awkward. It all wraps up with Tim telling Steph to stop being Spoiler. Though I like that FabNic affirms that Tim and Steph love each other, this is a really dumb way to write their relationship. I see kinda what he's going for, but Tim is just so unlikeable, and Steph is pretty incompetent with planning.

Then, in Gotham Gazette (during Battle for the Cowl), he writes a really bizarre little story about Steph defying Tim and capturing Nocturna the vampire with invisibility tech (that is never mentioned again), and Tim tells her she's not cut out for the hero business. At least FabNic had Steph defy Tim and say she chooses the life of a hero. But wow, that was some incoherent storytelling.

Lastly, in Red Robin, strangely FabNic completely ignores all of the history he developed between Tim and Steph, and has them basically act like work buddies. Tim thinks Steph is hot as Batgirl, and he gives her a heads up about Calculator, but there's none of the history that BQM showed, and even FabNic himself stressed, in all of his previous writing of their relationship.

I'm so grateful that DC decided to give Steph a solo instead of keep her as Tim's supporting character, if this was the quality of writing Steph was going to get. I didn't mind the way Yost wrote her, but FabNic was clearly not going to do her any favors.

----------


## Assam

> Inspired by a conversation with Assam recently,.


Which conversation got you to do this?

----------


## millernumber1

> Which conversation got you to do this?


The one about Steph not becoming Batgirl/how you would rewrite Batgirl.

----------


## Assam

> The one about Steph not becoming Batgirl/how you would rewrite Batgirl.


Ah. Don't think I ever mentioned a situation where Steph ended up as support in Tim's book, but I'm guessing you're going off the idea of Cass being Tim's co-star there.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah. Don't think I ever mentioned a situation where Steph ended up as support in Tim's book, but I'm guessing you're going off the idea of Cass being Tim's co-star there.


I don't actually remember for sure. For some reason, the idea of "What if Cass stayed Batgirl, and Steph remained Tim's supporting character" was connected with some conversation I had with you (though it could also have been on 4chan, haha). But boy oh boy, am I glad she did not, at least if they were going to stick with FabNic as the writer for Tim. (I also posted some hot takes on FabNic writing Tim, because man were those some terrible plot holes/contrivances.)

----------


## prettysunshine9

I've been sitting on this thought for a few days now and was wondering what others think of it but how much do you think personality wise Stephanie is like her parents?  Both in positive and negative traits? It seems at points that she defines herself by being as little like them as possible, but I do wonder if she picked up stubbornness from her dad and he willingness to help people from her mum (or at least, one would hope that as nurse Steph's mum was in the occupation to help people), but other than that she really is a black (or white?) sheep of her family.  This is probably even more pronounced post-flashpoint when not even her mum is very redeemable.

----------


## millernumber1

> I've been sitting on this thought for a few days now and was wondering what others think of it but how much do you think personality wise Stephanie is like her parents?  Both in positive and negative traits? It seems at points that she defines herself by being as little like them as possible, but I do wonder if she picked up stubbornness from her dad and he willingness to help people from her mum (or at least, one would hope that as nurse Steph's mum was in the occupation to help people), but other than that she really is a black (or white?) sheep of her family.  This is probably even more pronounced post-flashpoint when not even her mum is very redeemable.


That is a very good point. BQM pointed out in Batgirl #24 that both Arthur and Stephanie have difficulty with the best intentions leading to disaster, and Steph turning out better is likely the result of Tim, Cass, Bruce, and Babs's influence.

----------


## Frontier

> Inspired by a conversation with Assam recently, I reread all of Fabian Nicieza's writing for Steph after she came back from Africa (Robin #175-183, Gotham Gazette #1-2, and Red Robin #15 and 20), and boy am I glad that Steph got to be Batgirl under BQM's pen, instead of staying in FabNic's titles as a supporting character. Because the writing for Steph was really incoherent. She's hiring villains to do non-lethal things to make Tim better - which is an impossibly vague goal anyway - *and decides to use sex appeal to get away from one of Tim's teenage foes*. She also has a few awkward school scenes to make Tim's relationship with his girlfriend Zo awkward. It all wraps up with Tim telling Steph to stop being Spoiler. Though I like that FabNic affirms that Tim and Steph love each other, this is a really dumb way to write their relationship. I see kinda what he's going for, but Tim is just so unlikeable, and Steph is pretty incompetent with planning.
> 
> Then, in Gotham Gazette (during Battle for the Cowl), he writes a really bizarre little story about Steph defying Tim and capturing Nocturna the vampire with invisibility tech (that is never mentioned again), and Tim tells her she's not cut out for the hero business. At least FabNic had Steph defy Tim and say she chooses the life of a hero. But wow, that was some incoherent storytelling.
> 
> Lastly, in Red Robin, strangely FabNic completely ignores all of the history he developed between Tim and Steph, and has them basically act like work buddies. Tim thinks Steph is hot as Batgirl, and he gives her a heads up about Calculator, but there's none of the history that BQM showed, and even FabNic himself stressed, in all of his previous writing of their relationship.
> 
> I'm so grateful that DC decided to give Steph a solo instead of keep her as Tim's supporting character, if this was the quality of writing Steph was going to get. I didn't mind the way Yost wrote her, but FabNic was clearly not going to do her any favors.


Now I'm kind of morbidly curious as to what this entailed...

----------


## millernumber1

> Now I'm kind of morbidly curious as to what this entailed...


You haven't read the "Search for a Hero" arc (Robin #175-182)? I mean, it is pretty forgettable, but it has its fans for being the last run of Tim as Robin.

Basically, it means she got shot by the General in the shoulder, and when she wakes up, he stiches her up, so her top is half off. She lets it slip further and says she is hot for him, and when he is distracted by the sight of so much Steph, she punches him and hits him with her grapple gun.

This is FabNic, who spent a lot of time in Red Robin playing "steal Tim's virginity", so I'm not surprised at the general distastefulness of this sequence.

----------


## TheCape

Nevermind.

----------


## Frontier

> You haven't read the "Search for a Hero" arc (Robin #175-182)? I mean, it is pretty forgettable, but it has its fans for being the last run of Tim as Robin.
> 
> Basically, it means she got shot by the General in the shoulder, and when she wakes up, he stiches her up, so her top is half off. She lets it slip further and says she is hot for him, and when he is distracted by the sight of so much Steph, she punches him and hits him with her grapple gun.
> 
> This is FabNic, who spent a lot of time in Red Robin playing "steal Tim's virginity", so I'm not surprised at the general distastefulness of this sequence.


Wow. I read that arc but I don't remember that moment at all. It sounds like the kind of thing that would stick out to me...

----------


## millernumber1

> Wow. I read that arc but I don't remember that moment at all. It sounds like the kind of thing that would stick out to me...


I was taking pretty detailed notes, so I realized for the first time (though I have read this arc two or three times) just how incoherent the plotting is on these issues. So much of what happens is for effect, and makes no sense. Plus, the effect is all about making Tim into Batman (in the Titans of Tommorow mold), so that effect is pretty obnoxious.

----------


## TheCape

704f1c68ab34a4d7475c80ab3ae4ee5a-d5uwmkr.jpg
Here is cute batfamily pitch, i put it here because i thought that Steph looked adorable.

----------


## millernumber1

> 704f1c68ab34a4d7475c80ab3ae4ee5a-d5uwmkr.jpg
> Here is cute batfamily pitch, i put it here because i thought that Steph looked adorable.


Those are sweet!

----------


## adrikito

> 704f1c68ab34a4d7475c80ab3ae4ee5a-d5uwmkr.jpg
> Here is cute batfamily pitch, i put it here because i thought that Steph looked adorable.


Yes, she look adorable here.

----------


## adrikito

In the last Detective Comics, only 1 page with Steph... WHAT A SHAME..  :Frown:

----------


## AlvinDraper

> In the last Detective Comics, only 1 page with Steph... WHAT A SHAME..


We'll have to wait for the next issue, sadly...

----------


## millernumber1

> In the last Detective Comics, only 1 page with Steph... WHAT A SHAME..


I thought it was a really good page, though! We learn where Steph is living, that she has her own Spoilercave, with her own Cluemaster trophy/memorial case. Her talking to her dad's costume was a nice touch on her past.

Also, someone on tumblr pointed out that Red Robin Tim thought that Tim would go to Wayne Manor first - BUT Tomorrow Tim went to see Steph first! Steph is really important to Tim, even evil versions! (And also, Tim wanted to wait for her at the briefing...my heart!)

----------


## Dataweaver

I mentioned in the Tim thread that I think they are setting Stephanie up to be a surprise Ace in the Hole. That is, she'll end up serving as a spoiler for future Tim's plans.

----------


## millernumber1

> I mentioned in the Tim thread that I think they are setting Stephanie up to be a surprise Ace in the Hole. That is, she'll end up serving as a spoiler for future Tim's plans.


Now that is a fantastic idea! I do think her appearing on the cover for the next issue indicates that she may have a big role. But we've been lied to by covers before (The Button, I'm looking at you!)

----------


## Frontier

> I thought it was a really good page, though! We learn where Steph is living, that she has her own Spoilercave, with her own Cluemaster trophy/memorial case. Her talking to her dad's costume was a nice touch on her past.


Yeah, I think I'm just about done with the current Spoiler direction  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I think I'm just about done with the current Spoiler direction .


Awww, sad day. I still think it's interesting.

----------


## adrikito

> I thought it was a really good page, though! We learn where Steph is living, that she has her own Spoilercave, with her own Cluemaster trophy/memorial case. Her talking to her dad's costume was a nice touch on her past.
> 
> Also, someone on tumblr pointed out that Red Robin Tim thought that Tim would go to Wayne Manor first - BUT Tomorrow Tim went to see Steph first! Steph is really important to Tim, even evil versions! (And also, Tim wanted to wait for her at the briefing...my heart!)


You are right, is interesting, in the previous image before the cluemaster memorial case... There are another memorial case with him... Maybe Red Robin?

stephanie brown spoiler detective comics.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> You are right, is interesting, in the previous image before the cluemaster memorial case... There are another memorial case with him... Maybe Red Robin?
> 
> stephanie brown spoiler detective comics.jpg


Interesting idea. That means there's an awful lot of Red Robin costumes lying around, though.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

Cool Martinez photoshop I saw earlier.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cool Martinez photoshop I saw earlier.


Yeah, that was lovely. Martinez is competing for my favorite DC artist working today.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Cool Martinez photoshop I saw earlier.


I made this  :Big Grin: 

As soon as I saw that page I couldn't help but combine it with one of my other favorite panels from Martinez.

----------


## millernumber1

> I made this 
> 
> As soon as I saw that page I couldn't help but combine it with one of my other favorite panels from Martinez.


Amazing! We have talent in our thread!  :Smile:  (Also, feel free to link your manips or other creations for Steph here! I love to see those, and if it's the creator, I can give direct applause!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> I made this 
> 
> As soon as I saw that page I couldn't help but combine it with one of my other favorite panels from Martinez.


Cool! Sorry I did not give credit, I didn't know who did it. As millernumber1 said its great to have such a talent in our threads.Martinez' art is amazing btw, definitely one of my favourite artists discovered in rebirth (along with anyone in green arrow).
Still waiting on 967, should be getting it tomorrow morning,been spoilt on basically everything anyway! :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> I made this 
> 
> As soon as I saw that page I couldn't help but combine it with one of my other favorite panels from Martinez.


Saw it when you posted it on Tumblr. Looks fantastic. 




> Yeah, that was lovely. Martinez is competing for my favorite DC artist working today.


Martinez is up there with Takara and Schmidt (and really everyone on Green Arrow) as one of my favorites, and these shots of Cass and Steph are good examples of why, but Sejic wins it for me.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cool! Sorry I did not give credit, I didn't know who did it. As millernumber1 said its great to have such a talent in our threads.Martinez' art is amazing btw, definitely one of my favourite artists discovered in rebirth (along with anyone in green arrow).
> Still waiting on 967, should be getting it tomorrow morning,been spoilt on basically everything anyway!


You have so much to look forward to! Such a great issue!  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> You have so much to look forward to! Such a great issue!


So I've heard(I've also seen some screenshots)

----------


## adrikito

> Cool Martinez photoshop I saw earlier.


Yeah, cool work




> I made this 
> 
> As soon as I saw that page I couldn't help but combine it with one of my other favorite panels from Martinez.


Good work.

----------


## adrikito

Detective Comics 969 variant:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...-yasmin-putri/

detective comics team.jpg

Is strange, we can see part of Steph face again.. However is only one variant..

----------


## millernumber1

> Detective Comics 969 variant:
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...-yasmin-putri/
> 
> detective comics team.jpg
> 
> Is strange, we can see part of Steph face again.. However is only one variant..


Ooooh, that's a really good point! I was so jazzed to see Steph with the rest of the team I didn't notice that her "MASK OF DARKNESS" has been replaced by the NINJA MASK OF JOY.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Ooooh, that's a really good point! I was so jazzed to see Steph with the rest of the team I didn't notice that her "MASK OF DARKNESS" has been replaced by the NINJA MASK OF JOY.


Seems he's going for the "Wasn't seeing clearly" metaphor. Even if it does fall a bit flat considering the mask that was "blinding" her was her original.

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems he's going for the "Wasn't seeing clearly" metaphor. Even if it does fall a bit flat considering the mask that was "blinding" her was her original.


I mean, as someone who didn't like Steph's original outfit, I am all for it.  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

Oh dang, I was so happy to have the classic mask back  :Frown: .

Also notice Azrael's look is a little different too.

----------


## Assam

> Oh dang, I was so happy to have the classic mask back .


Same.




> Also notice Azrael's look is a little different too.


JPV, Cass and Basil have all been drawn inconsistently in this book; wouldn't give this part too much thought.

----------


## The Whovian

> Detective Comics 969 variant:
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/10...-yasmin-putri/
> 
> detective comics team.jpg
> 
> Is strange, we can see part of Steph face again.. However is only one variant..


I love the new look. It is a variant, but this pretty much confirms she's in it

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh dang, I was so happy to have the classic mask back .
> 
> Also notice Azrael's look is a little different too.


I thought some people might be sad. But I like seeing Steph's face.  :Smile: 




> I love the new look. It is a variant, but this pretty much confirms she's in it


Are we sure it's a variant? Guillem March is listed as the main cover artist for these issues.

----------


## Assam

> Are we sure it's a variant? Guillem March is listed as the main cover artist for these issues.


Could be the main. Just seemed like the kind of thing that'd be a variant to me so I assumed.

----------


## adrikito

> Oh dang, I was so happy to have the classic mask back .
> 
> Also notice Azrael's look is a little different too.


...I support both looks however... Maybe remove her mask is the best option... 

Cass with mask and Steph without, not repeat the mask in both girls.. However, DC always can change Cass mask, but I think that DC will change Orphan name before that..




> Are we sure it's a variant? Guillem March is listed as the main cover artist for these issues.


They put this here, but Lois cover is one Cover not variant..




> Ooooh, that's a really good point! I was so jazzed to see Steph with the rest of the team I didn't notice that her "MASK OF DARKNESS" has been replaced by the NINJA MASK OF JOY.


Maybe DC put her mask for the outlaw Steph(they put her old mask in the same moment that she was against the Bats) and now that she returns they will remove the mask again.

I like your words of NINJA MASK OF JOY... You give me more desire for return with her ninja mask OF JOY again..  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

I saw this image about Nightwing new order.. Even if this is one alternative world.. Tim Drake descendants:

Tim drake nightwing new order.jpg


One BLONDE GIRL, with this kind of colors(pink, violet) as her costume, even the backpack is purple... Very suspicious..

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw this image about Nightwing new order.. Even if this is one alternative world.. Tim Drake descendants:
> 
> Tim drake nightwing new order.jpg
> 
> One BLONDE GIRL, with this kind of colors(pink, violet) as her costume, even the backpack is purple... Very suspicious..


YES! I HAVE THE SAME THOUGHT! Is future Tim/Steph a thing? Inquiring minds want to know!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> YES! I HAVE THE SAME THOUGHT! Is future Tim/Steph a thing? Inquiring minds want to know!


If you look her face, she is like one little Steph.. 

No one can doubt who is her mother. This is the era of TimxSteph.. 

Even if this era ends someday.. They are like one Clark and Lois(singles) break them but someday this couple will return, with others you will not find something special like this.. 
I am not Tim fan(I only respect him) but I want the best for Steph..

----------


## millernumber1

> If you look her face, she is like one little Steph.. 
> 
> No one can doubt who is her mother. This is the era of TimxSteph.. 
> 
> Even if this era ends someday.. They are like one Clark and Lois(singles) break them but someday this couple will return, with others you will not find something special like this.. 
> I am not Tim fan(I only respect him) but I want the best for Steph..


I am a Tim fan, though I am definitely primarily a Steph fan, but I think too many fans minimize how important Tim was in Steph's life.

And here's the page of New Order, for the fans!

Nightwing - The New Order (2017-) 003-009.jpg

----------


## adrikito

This topic can accept one Funny but little "pervert" image of deviantart?  I don´t want problems for one stupid image...

Is pervert because Steph is touching with one hand her rival breast(under her bra, no nudity), her rival is laughing..

Or I put the link of this image in deviantart..

----------


## Red obin

> This topic can accept one Funny but little "pervert" image of deviantart?  I don´t want problems for one stupid image...
> 
> Is pervert because Steph is touching with one hand her rival breast(under her bra, no nudity), her rival is laughing..
> 
> Or I put the link of this image in deviantart..


What are you talkinng about? :Confused: 

I am also really looking forward to the next issue of 'tec btw and due to #969's cover I would not be surprised if Steph came back.

I have also been rereading batgirl (again!) and I really like the dialogue in the crossover with red robin and Tim/

----------


## adrikito

> What are you talkinng about?


This image:
https://croozel.deviantart.com/art/S...phan-711464391

----------


## millernumber1

> What are you talkinng about?
> 
> I am also really looking forward to the next issue of 'tec btw and due to #969's cover I would not be surprised if Steph came back.
> 
> I have also been rereading batgirl (again!) and I really like the dialogue in the crossover with red robin and Tim/


Yes! In what format are you rereading Batgirl? The new collection? Old floppies or trades? Or digitally?

----------


## Red obin

> Yes! In what format are you rereading Batgirl? The new collection? Old floppies or trades? Or digitally?


Bit of all. I have the floppies for #1-8,13,road home,15,20 and 24 and digital issues to fill in some gaps.I much prefer physical so I later managed to track down an old copy of the original lesson trade of #15-24 and just got the new trade of #1-12. I have all the issues but just missing #14 in any physical format and #13-14+road home in any trade. I might pick up volume 2 for Steph bat as she is one of my favourite characters(along with Tim), so even if I have most I should show some respect.

Funny thing is I love Tim robin and through him found out about spoiler and now I think I prefer her!

----------


## millernumber1

> Bit of all. I have the floppies for #1-8,13,road home,15,20 and 24 and digital issues to fill in some gaps.I much prefer physical so I later managed to track down an old copy of the original lesson trade of #15-24 and just got the new trade of #1-12. I have all the issues but just missing #14 in any physical format and #13-14+road home in any trade. I might pick up volume 2 for Steph bat as she is one of my favourite characters(along with Tim), so even if I have most I should show some respect.
> 
> Funny thing is I love Tim robin and through him found out about spoiler and now I think I prefer her!


Interesting! That's quite a collection. I have just a couple floppies - #14, 17, and 22 (22 is on my wall at work behind me right now  :Smile:  ), plus The Road Home (since I didn't feel like getting the whole trade). Last year, I decided to track down all of the old trades - Batgirl Rising, The Flood, and The Lesson, and also decided to get the World's Finest, Red Robin: The Grail, and Red Robin: Collision trades. Plus the floppies of The Web #3 and Batman, Inc Leviathan Strikes (the latter is more of a trade itself, since it's really thick and has the 80-page giant style binding). Did you collect floppies on release day, or just pick them up later? (I got #14 while it was still on the stands, but not release day. The others I got either from back-issue sales or ebay.) I bought the new 1-12 collection digitally, because I just got the trades and thought it would be a bit too silly to get the new trade as well. Planning to buy the second volume also digitally, so they match (even though I actually already bought #24 digitally).

It's my opinion that the new 1-12 trade isn't quite as high-quality in paper/cover quality as the three volumes of Cass's Batgirl series - what is your impression of the materials used?

Side note: one of the reasons it took me so long to buy The Lesson in trade is because the original solicits and some of the listings online still say that it only collects up to #22. I didn't really want to have to buy the trade and also track down the last two floppies, but I finally found some listings with the accurate contents, and I decided to risk it. Totally worth it - it's complete!

I love Tim and Steph both, but I definitely love Steph the most.  :Smile:

----------


## Red obin

> Interesting! That's quite a collection. I have just a couple floppies - #14, 17, and 22 (22 is on my wall at work behind me right now  ), plus The Road Home (since I didn't feel like getting the whole trade). Last year, I decided to track down all of the old trades - Batgirl Rising, The Flood, and The Lesson, and also decided to get the World's Finest, Red Robin: The Grail, and Red Robin: Collision trades. Plus the floppies of The Web #3 and Batman, Inc Leviathan Strikes (the latter is more of a trade itself, since it's really thick and has the 80-page giant style binding). Did you collect floppies on release day, or just pick them up later? (I got #14 while it was still on the stands, but not release day. The others I got either from back-issue sales or ebay.) I bought the new 1-12 collection digitally, because I just got the trades and thought it would be a bit too silly to get the new trade as well. Planning to buy the second volume also digitally, so they match (even though I actually already bought #24 digitally).
> 
> It's my opinion that the new 1-12 trade isn't quite as high-quality in paper/cover quality as the three volumes of Cass's Batgirl series - what is your impression of the materials used?
> 
> Side note: one of the reasons it took me so long to buy The Lesson in trade is because the original solicits and some of the listings online still say that it only collects up to #22. I didn't really want to have to buy the trade and also track down the last two floppies, but I finally found some listings with the accurate contents, and I decided to risk it. Totally worth it - it's complete!
> 
> I love Tim and Steph both, but I definitely love Steph the most.


Yeah, I also have the world finest trade and red robin #1-7,10 and 14-17. I have some random other issues as well as I have quite a lot of random dc batman trades from 2007-new 52 after Steph's return. I have the Robin trade with her return as well as Gotham Gazette with Steph issues in battle for the cowl trades.

I keep meaning to read batman inc, I brought the first new 52 trade but then realised I needed to get pre52 volume!

I collect floppies at the moment for current books on ebay, but I have only been a comic book fan for a few years, so I did not get the Steph books when they come out, that is why I have a random assortment.

I know I always praise Miller's batgirl run but one criticism I have is the random dark tone of the flood! That stuff is messed up at points! I like it even if it seems to not tonally fit.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I also have the world finest trade and red robin #1-7,10 and 14-17. I have some random other issues as well as I have quite a lot of random dc batman trades from 2007-new 52 after Steph's return. I have the Robin trade with her return as well as Gotham Gazette with Steph issues in battle for the cowl trades.
> 
> I keep meaning to read batman inc, I brought the first new 52 trade but then realised I needed to get pre52 volume!
> 
> I collect floppies at the moment for current books on ebay, but I have only been a comic book fan for a few years, so I did not get the Steph books when they come out, that is why I have a random assortment.


Nice! Battle for the Cowl is so bad I'm not even willing to get it for Steph. And her stuff in Gotham Gazette was so strange - clearly a bigger story than Niceiza had page space for, so it doesn't make a ton of sense (I recently reread all of Niceiza's issues of Robin and Gotham Gazette to see what he might have planned for Steph - honestly, it was probably pretty dire. Playing a really unhelpful second banana to Tim's increasingly dark fake Batman - no, thank you.)

Do you have a pull list? Mine's pretty small - two small titles from Marvel, an indie, then Deathstroke, Detective, Birds of Prey, Bane, and soon Justice League.

----------


## Red obin

> Nice! Battle for the Cowl is so bad I'm not even willing to get it for Steph. And her stuff in Gotham Gazette was so strange - clearly a bigger story than Niceiza had page space for, so it doesn't make a ton of sense (I recently reread all of Niceiza's issues of Robin and Gotham Gazette to see what he might have planned for Steph - honestly, it was probably pretty dire. Playing a really unhelpful second banana to Tim's increasingly dark fake Batman - no, thank you.)
> 
> Do you have a pull list? Mine's pretty small - two small titles from Marvel, an indie, then Deathstroke, Detective, Birds of Prey, Bane, and soon Justice League.


Yeah, battle for the cowl was much much worse than I expected. I didn't hate it, it was just so mediocre.  The Steph issues are a bit awkward as well, you have to read between the lines and assume a lot between the two issues for it to make proper sense.

I am largely a DC guy, but have read some of marvel stuff from a few years ago.
At the moment I am reading Detective comics, superman,nightwing, Titans and teen titans, birds of prey (my least favourite at the moment) and super sons. I also get metal atm and raven soon probably. I read books mostly for my love of characters generally and I am very much based in titans stuff.

I am trying to consistently get cheap trades on amazon and so I am following Green arrow, green lanterns,wonder woman.

I have also read a bit of batgirl,all star batman and flash rebirth.

Oh also, any spoiler issue recommendations, especially from Robin as there are loads of them on ebay.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, battle for the cowl was much much worse than I expected. I didn't hate it, it was just so mediocre.  The Steph issues are a bit awkward as well, you have to read between the lines and assume a lot between the two issues for it to make proper sense.
> 
> I am largely a DC guy, but have read some of marvel stuff from a few years ago.
> At the moment I am reading Detective comics, superman,nightwing, Titans and teen titans, birds of prey (my least favourite at the moment) and super sons. I also get metal atm and raven soon probably. I read books mostly for my love of characters generally and I am very much based in titans stuff.
> 
> I am trying to consistently get cheap trades on amazon and so I am following Green arrow, green lanterns,wonder woman.
> 
> I have also read a bit of batgirl,all star batman and flash rebirth.


I started out mostly a Marvel guy (just as Civil War was coming out), only really following Birds of Prey while Simone was writing it. However, that's shifted in the past 6-7 years, and now I'm almost exclusively a DC guy, too.  My roommate loves Super Sons and Aquaman, and I read some of his issues, but not enough to get them myself. Birds of Prey is probably my least favorite as well - but I really want it to be good and not cancelled. I'm just really happy that Steph's book is really good, even if she's not in it enough. Definitely a character fan - I enjoyed the last Raven miniseries, and am interested in following, though probably not pulling, the new, longer Raven series.

I read a lot more than I pull - borrowing from friends, and the like. But I feel like I mostly stay in Gotham.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

Battle For the Cowl was just an overdramatic way to draw on what everyone knew was going to happen, Dick would take the manttle because he is the best for the job, is probably the reason of why he is the only one in that mini that acts more or less in characther (the rest is pretty damm bad).

----------


## Assam

Battle for the Cowl sucks because of OOC behavior across the board and the plot being forced and unnecessary. And of course because Cass's exclusion makes the whole thing not make any sense.

----------


## TheCape

I remenber her appearing in the first issue, when she was being really agressive toward Helena, but i migth be missremenbering, but frankly, i'm glad that she wasn't in that trainwreck.

----------


## Red obin

> Battle for the Cowl sucks because of OOC behavior across the board and the plot being forced and unnecessary. And of course because Cass's exclusion makes the whole thing not make any sense.


One day, in a distant future, someone will track down a mystical object.

*spoilers:*
 an Assam comment which doesn't mention cass. 
*end of spoilers* :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> One day, in a distant future, someone will track down a mystical object.
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  an Assam comment which doesn't mention cass. 
> *end of spoilers*


Oh, I make plenty of posts which don't mention Cass. It's just that they're always regarding topics outside the Batverse. Otherwise, yeah, Cass is gonna get brought up; she's the only reason I've cared about the Batverse for a long time.

----------


## millernumber1

> Battle for the Cowl sucks because of OOC behavior across the board and the plot being forced and unnecessary. And of course because Cass's exclusion makes the whole thing not make any sense.


Yeah. It was bad. And the voices. Ugh. Whenever someone tells me Tony Daniel is a good writer, I just look at them funny because of Battle for the Cowl.




> I remenber her appearing in the first issue, when she was being really agressive toward Helena, but i migth be missremenbering, but frankly, i'm glad that she wasn't in that trainwreck.


I think that was The Network, wasn't it? I really liked that issue.




> One day, in a distant future, someone will track down a mystical object.
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  an Assam comment which doesn't mention cass. 
> *end of spoilers*


I feel the same about my own comments and Steph. So I relate.  :Smile: 




> Oh, I make plenty of posts which don't mention Cass. It's just that they're always regarding topics outside the Batverse. Otherwise, yeah, Cass is gonna get brought up; she's the only reason I've cared about the Batverse for a long time.


While I do have other peeps I love in the Batfamily than Steph - Tim, Cass, Helena, even Bruce, Jean Paul, Luke, Dinah (sorta in the family) - Steph is definitely the reason I'm here.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah. It was bad. And the voices. Ugh. Whenever someone tells me Tony Daniel is a good writer, I just look at them funny because of Battle for the Cowl.


I know you're not a Jason guy, but who do you think wrote him worse: Daniel or Morrison? 




> While I do have other peeps I love in the Batfamily than Steph - Tim, Cass, Helena, even Bruce, Jean Paul, Luke, Dinah (sorta in the family) - Steph is definitely the reason I'm here.


Yeah, there are obviously tons of other characters I love, but even among my favorites, either I mainly love them for their interactions with others, including Cass, rather than as solo characters (Steph, Tim and Alfred), they're never around (Barbara, Renee and Onyx), or they weren't around for many years/didn't exist in a capacity I really liked until Rebirth (Basil, JPV and RedHoodJay) As some of you saw, Wang Baixi currently has my favor over everyone not named Cass or Steph. 

There's a reason I didn't read any Nu52 Batbooks until Batman and Robin: Eternal.

----------


## Frontier

> I know you're not a Jason guy, but who do you think wrote him worse: Daniel or Morrison?


I think the ideas they had about Jason and how he'd evolve his methods or use them in relation to the Batman identity made some sense, at least as he was portrayed prior to that, they just went a little overboard with it.

----------


## millernumber1

> I know you're not a Jason guy, but who do you think wrote him worse: Daniel or Morrison? 
> 
> Yeah, there are obviously tons of other characters I love, but even among my favorites, either I mainly love them for their interactions with others, including Cass, rather than as solo characters (Steph, Tim and Alfred), they're never around (Barbara, Renee and Onyx), or they weren't around for many years/didn't exist in a capacity I really liked until Rebirth (Basil, JPV and RedHoodJay) As some of you saw, Wang Baixi currently has my favor over everyone not named Cass or Steph. 
> 
> There's a reason I didn't read any Nu52 Batbooks until Batman and Robin: Eternal.


Um. Probably Daniel. Maybe because I haven't really read Batman and Robin by Morrison very thoroughly (and got profoundly chewed out on 4chan for arguing that Joker isn't the centerpiece of Morrison's run on Batman because I apparently missed some stuff in Batman and Robin), but in Batman, Inc, I liked how Jason turned out to be one of Batman's most loyal agents. It was profoundly stupid, like a lot of Morrison's "clever" twists, but still a nice moment for the two.  Daniel's Jason...ugh. Add the really bad sub-Azrael "grim and gritty" Batman aesthetic, and it's really dreadful.

I feel you. I came back for Batman Eternal, pretty much only because of Steph.

----------


## adrikito

> I feel you. I came back for Batman Eternal, pretty much only because of Steph.


That year I begin with DC, Batman Eternal was the first temporal serie that I have read.. After read one interview, before batman eternal I investigated about Steph and Cass.. I found curious that many fans wanted the return of these characters.. DC obsession with Barbara as Batgirl was these girls perdition, the 4 principal robins survived the N52..

I liked this that I read today about her..  Words of another Steph fan:

Stephanie Brown was given the mantle of Batgirl in 2009. And, man, did she shine. Batgirl was everything you wanted a comic to be, and more. In much the same way Veronica Mars was pitch-perfect updating of Nancy Drew, *Stephanie Brown was the 21st Century embodiment of a young Barbara Gordon (which makes Babs return to a character she outgrew decades ago so perplexing). Steph was smart, tough, vibrant, silly, and true*. And the DCU is a little darker place without her around. All of Miller’s run on the title is collected in trade paperbacks and I’d recommend to anyone, especially those with youngsters looking for a way into comics, to grab every single one. I still miss you Steph, but damn did you give us some great memories.

This was published in 2011, for that DC was a little darker without her..

----------


## millernumber1

> That year I begin with DC, Batman Eternal was the first temporal serie that I have read.. After read one interview, before batman eternal I investigated about Steph and Cass.. I found curious that many fans wanted the return of these characters.. DC obsession with Barbara as Batgirl was these girls perdition, the 4 principal robins survived the N52..
> 
> I liked this that I read today about her..  Words of another Steph fan:
> 
> Stephanie Brown was given the mantle of Batgirl in 2009. And, man, did she shine. Batgirl was everything you wanted a comic to be, and more. In much the same way Veronica Mars was pitch-perfect updating of Nancy Drew, *Stephanie Brown was the 21st Century embodiment of a young Barbara Gordon (which makes Babs return to a character she outgrew decades ago so perplexing). Steph was smart, tough, vibrant, silly, and true*. And the DCU is a little darker place without her around. All of Miller’s run on the title is collected in trade paperbacks and I’d recommend to anyone, especially those with youngsters looking for a way into comics, to grab every single one. I still miss you Steph, but damn did you give us some great memories.
> 
> This was published in 2011, for that DC was a little darker without her..


Yup. 2011 to 2014 was pretty dark for many DC fans.

That's a nice blog post about Steph! It's really sad that so many series - Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, Steph's run as Batgirl - were about 5-8 years too early. If published in 2014, they would have gotten so many interviews and promotional spots and fan communities and never allowed to die. But because they happened in an age where editorial kept seeking the "iconic" and "dark and gritty" as the sign of quality, they were shuffled off this mortal coil, leaving only memories and sadness.

----------


## Assam

> I liked this that I read today about her..  Words of another Steph fan:
> 
> Stephanie Brown was given the mantle of Batgirl in 2009. And, man, did she shine. Batgirl was everything you wanted a comic to be, and more. In much the same way Veronica Mars was pitch-perfect updating of Nancy Drew, *Stephanie Brown was the 21st Century embodiment of a young Barbara Gordon (which makes Babs return to a character she outgrew decades ago so perplexing). Steph was smart, tough, vibrant, silly, and true*. And the DCU is a little darker place without her around. All of Miller’s run on the title is collected in trade paperbacks and I’d recommend to anyone, especially those with youngsters looking for a way into comics, to grab every single one. I still miss you Steph, but damn did you give us some great memories.
> 
> This was published in 2011, for that DC was a little darker without her..


*Twitches* I really wish you guys could have known me Pre-2009, the days when I loved Steph almost as much as Cass (Not that I don't _still_ love her) the days when I wanted justice for her just as much, and before a good chunk of her fanbase became toxic. In regards to that last point, while what they say about Steph is nice, I fairly remember seeing this before, and I'm pretty sure this was one of the many fans seriously trying to use _Steph_ as a representation of lost diversity in the Nu52. 




> That's a nice blog post about Steph! It's really sad that so many series - Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, Steph's run as Batgirl - were about 5-8 years too early. If published in 2014, they would have gotten so many interviews and promotional spots and fan communities and never allowed to die. But because they happened in an age where editorial kept seeking the "iconic" and "dark and gritty" as the sign of quality, they were shuffled off this mortal coil, leaving only memories and sadness.


Careful what you wish for there friendo.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Move DC's timeline of events up a decade and you never even get Steph as Batgirl. The world we live in now, there's not a chance in Hell Cass (and MANY other POC characters) would have been able to get screwed over like they did.

----------


## millernumber1

> Careful what you wish for there friendo.  Move DC's timeline of events up a decade and you never even get Steph as Batgirl. The world we live in now, there's not a chance in Hell Cass (and MANY other POC characters) would have been able to get screwed over like they did.


I'm more thinking about moving the culture of fandom backwards, so they'd be more receptive to those series.

Also, inspired by your post in the Cass thread, Scott Snyder is asking fans what characters we'd like to see highlighted in 2018: https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840

There's already 400+ responses, but make your voices heard!

----------


## Frontier

> I'm more thinking about moving the culture of fandom backwards, so they'd be more receptive to those series.
> 
> Also, inspired by your post in the Cass thread, Scott Snyder is asking fans what characters we'd like to see highlighted in 2018: https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840
> 
> There's already 400+ responses, but make your voices heard!


The clear favorites seem to be Poison Ivy, Martian Manhunter, Swamp Thing, the Marvel family, and the JSA (I also see quite a few Cass's)...

----------


## millernumber1

> The clear favorites seem to be Poison Ivy, Martian Manhunter, Swamp Thing, the Marvel family, and the JSA (I also see quite a few Cass's)...


I'm so not interested in more Poison Ivy after the lukewarm mini last year. J'onn would be awesome, and the Marvel family will hopefully get a boost in the comics alongside this movie news. The JSA have a twice monthly book...dunno what people are complaining about there. There's many Cass's, as you say (and good for her!), but only one Steph so far (that's me, surprise!)

----------


## Frontier

> I'm so not interested in more Poison Ivy after the lukewarm mini last year. J'onn would be awesome, and the Marvel family will hopefully get a boost in the comics alongside this movie news. The JSA have a twice monthly book...dunno what people are complaining about there. There's many Cass's, as you say (and good for her!), but only one Steph so far (that's me, surprise!)


Well, I'm down for more Ivy if it's good (I've actually heard her mini was pretty solid)  :Smile: . 

Are you sure you're not thinking of the J*L*A...?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I'm down for more Ivy if it's good (I've actually heard her mini was pretty solid) . 
> 
> Are you sure you're not thinking of the J*L*A...?


Eh. I'm not an Ivy fan to start with, so that didn't help. But it was just so bland.

Yes, I am thinking of the JLA. My bad. I keep getting those confused.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> The clear favorites seem to be Poison Ivy, Martian Manhunter, Swamp Thing, the Marvel family, and the JSA (I also see quite a few Cass's)...


I'm pretty indifferent toward Swamp Thing and Ivy myself, but more J'onn, Marvels and JSA would much appreciated. 




> There's many Cass's, as you say (and good for her!), but only one Steph so far (that's me, surprise!)


I've seen a few Steph votes, mostly from people also citing Cass or another Gotham heroine. 

Also, I think the massive difference between Cass and Steph votes supports what I was saying the other day about how 'Tec was effecting the two fanbases in different ways, both for better and worse.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm pretty indifferent toward Swamp Thing and Ivy myself, but more J'onn, Marvels and JSA would much appreciated.


I want more with all my faves  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I've seen a few Steph votes, mostly from people also citing Cass or another Gotham heroine. 
> 
> Also, I think the massive difference between Cass and Steph votes supports what I was saying the other day about how 'Tec was effecting the two fanbases in different ways, both for better and worse.


Huh. I only saw me. (I saw more Harper than Steph, which just irritates me. Though to be fair, Steph is in more books than Harper. Still.)

I think you're right - on 4chan, Cass appreciation/fanart/old issue reminiscence threads are pretty common, but Steph never.

 :Frown:   :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> I'm more thinking about moving the culture of fandom backwards, so they'd be more receptive to those series.
> 
> Also, inspired by your post in the Cass thread, Scott Snyder is asking fans what characters we'd like to see highlighted in 2018: https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840
> 
> There's already 400+ responses, but make your voices heard!


Thank you.. I supported Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain..  




> I'm pretty indifferent toward Swamp Thing and Ivy myself, but more J'onn, Marvels and JSA would much appreciated. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a few Steph votes, mostly from people also citing Cass or another Gotham heroine. 
> 
> Also, I think the massive difference between Cass and Steph votes supports what I was saying the other day about how 'Tec was effecting the two fanbases in different ways, both for better and worse.


If only of both girls is lucky... Better Cassandra than Stephanie Brown for Young Justice... One chance for leave behind the Orphan name, no?  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you.. I supported Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain..


Hooray! The more the merrier!

----------


## Assam

I just realized, what with Steph presumably coming back next week, we never actually saw her live up to her promise to get in the BatFam's way. All we've seen her do is start a blog, beat up Wrath and do crap with notLonnie. Wouldn't it have made sense for there to be a one-shot, maybe after Wrath of Spoiler, where she came into conflict with either Cass and Basil or Luke and JPV? (Maybe even a different match-up?) It could have been cool and made the plot feel like it has more meat than it does currently. Wrath of Spoiler was just too simple and Utopia was a waste, just serving as set-up for Fall of the Batmen.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just realized, what with Steph presumably coming back next week, we never actually saw her live up to her promise to get in the BatFam's way. All we've seen her do is start a blog, beat up Wrath and do crap with notLonnie. Wouldn't it have made sense for there to be a one-shot, maybe after Wrath of Spoiler, where she came into conflict with either Cass and Basil or Luke and JPV? (Maybe even a different match-up?) It could have been cool and made the plot feel like it has more meat than it does currently. Wrath of Spoiler was just too simple and Utopia was a waste, just serving as set-up for Fall of the Batmen.


She broke the Batsignal a bunch. I think that's really what she meant by "stand in your way." Given what the fan response to Steph's course of action has been, I think it's a good thing she didn't fight any of the Gotham Knights. It's clear that if just speaking out against Batman causes her to be seen as worthless or stupid or annoying, actually fighting Batman would make her an outright villain in the eyes of the undiscerning fans.

I think Wrath of Spoiler was pretty good, actually, and Utopia could have been good if they hadn't wasted so much time with Clayface (to clarify, I think the Clayface/Cass stuff in Utopia was actually probably the best executed part of the story, but it was spinning its wheels - no progress or change whatsoever happened with any of the characters involved.) The Steph stuff was more interesting in terms of the consequences of Night of the Monster Men and Victim Syndicate, but it just wasn't executed well enough because of space (and Sebela is not nearly as good as Tynion).

----------


## adrikito

With the Fall of the Batmen saga, I think that we will see this soon:

detective comics bat-team spoiler stephanie brown cassandra cain orphan.jpg

Batwoman leaving the team... and Steph crying..  Anyway, with Tim return I will see her happy again before that..

Time ago, without Tim and Steph, the team added Batwing and Azrael.. Now I think that we will lose Clayface(evil again) and Batwoman, with her I AM SURE that in *Fall of the batmen*, she will leave the  team... 

I think that Tomorrow Tim mentioned that Fall of the Batmen was the begin of his dark future.. Maybe with Karlo in the next saga for make the moment in this image similar..

*
DETECTIVE COMICS #971*
“Fall of the Batmen” part three! With the Victim Syndicate on the move *and Clayface on the edge,* the team faces a crossroads—but *Batwoman believes she knows the way forward! The trick is...does Batman agree?*

*DETECTIVE COMICS #973*
“Fall Of The Batmen” finale! With the team in disarray and facing their most powerful adversary yet, *Batwoman must make a critical battlefield choice—one with the power to shatter everything Batman has built!* You’ll be talking about this issue for years to come!

----------


## Frontier

> I just realized, what with Steph presumably coming back next week, we never actually saw her live up to her promise to get in the BatFam's way. All we've seen her do is start a blog, beat up Wrath and do crap with notLonnie. Wouldn't it have made sense for there to be a one-shot, maybe after Wrath of Spoiler, where she came into conflict with either Cass and Basil or Luke and JPV? (Maybe even a different match-up?) It could have been cool and made the plot feel like it has more meat than it does currently. Wrath of Spoiler was just too simple and Utopia was a waste, just serving as set-up for Fall of the Batmen.


Honestly, I don't think we could have seen Steph do more in that role without it coming off badly on her part or at least proving more divisive then her current status quo already is.

----------


## Assam

> It's clear that if just speaking out against Batman causes her to be seen as worthless or stupid or annoying, actually fighting Batman would make her an outright villain in the eyes of the undiscerning fans.


Hence why I proposed her taking on other Knights and not Batman. Still I do get your point. 




> I think Wrath of Spoiler was pretty good.


I agree but it was still very simple. And because Utopia didn't really do anything for Steph's character, this whole thing is feeling very pointless at this time and I don't see that changing. 




> (and Sebela is not nearly as good as Tynion).


His first issue of Blue Beetle was actually pretty dang good. Definitely better than any issue in the volume prior, and probably better than most of Tynion's Pre-'Tec issues.

----------


## millernumber1

> With the Fall of the Batmen saga, I think that we will see this soon:
> 
> detective comics bat-team spoiler stephanie brown cassandra cain orphan.jpg
> 
> Batwoman leaving the team... and Steph crying.. 
> 
> We are going to lose 2 members for add Steph and Tim again(batwoman and clayface)... Time ago, without Tim and Steph, the team added batwing and Azrael..


Hmm. I hope not. But you're probably right. I don't want to lose anyone, though!




> Honestly, I don't think we could have seen Steph do more in that role without it coming off badly on her part or at least proving more divisive then her current status quo already is.


Exactly. I'm personally enjoying her arc (except that it keeps her out of the title too much), since I think it gives Steph the right to make wrong choices without being a villain, but most fans definitely don't see it that way, so it's being incredibly divisive. Add Steph fighting characters who are on Batman's side, and you get those character's fans becoming hostile to Steph.

Much as I appreciate that Tynion isn't just having Steph be a background, happy-go-lucky quippy character who gets along with everyone but has no plotline (which seems to be what most fans seem to imply that they want when they criticize the current storyline), I do think it's been a tightrope, and farming the writing out to someone who isn't as good as Tynion didn't help anything.

----------


## millernumber1

> His first issue of Blue Beetle was actually pretty dang good. Definitely better than any issue in the volume prior, and probably better than most of Tynion's Pre-'Tec issues.


Hmm. I haven't read Blue Beetle, so don't know about that. But as a huge fan of Tynion's pre-Tec issues of Batman Eternal (and also several in Batman and Robin Eternal - and do you really think it's better than BRE #13?), I'm skeptical.

----------


## Assam

> Now I think that we will lose batwoman.


She's really the only member that could leave as this point besides Basil, but I still don't see it happening. Still, in the event that it does, I have my music ready to go: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWLIgjB9gGw 

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> She's really the only member that could leave as this point besides Basil, but I still don't see it happening. Still, in the event that it does, I have my music ready to go: 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWLIgjB9gGw


I'd say you could probably take out Batman too (though they never will).

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd say you could probably take out Batman too (though they never will).


Who would lead, though? Tim? I feel strongly that even though I don't agree with the "Detective Comics has to be about being a detective" argument, I do think Batman should be in it. I love his current role and depiction by Tynion, so I don't want him to leave either. Also: sales.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Hmm. I haven't read Blue Beetle, so don't know about that. But as a huge fan of Tynion's pre-Tec issues of Batman Eternal (and also several in Batman and Robin Eternal - and do you really think it's better than BRE #13?), I'm skeptical.



No it wasn't better than BRE's best issue. I did say _most._(I think you're aware at this point I don't much care for either Eternal as a whole) 





> I'd say you could probably take out Batman too (though they never will).


Yeah, there's the fact that he'll never leave and the fact that we already know him and Cass will be the focus in Spring.

----------


## adrikito

> She's really the only member that could leave as this point besides Basil, but I still don't see it happening. Still, in the event that it does, I have my music ready to go: 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWLIgjB9gGw


HAHAHAHA... I liked... I think that only Batwoman for change the Tomorrow Tim Future, he mentioned this saga... Karlo maybe can continue one saga, but I can´t see him more time, unfortunatelly..

Speaking of Clay, another fan of Cass mentioned that he wants one MINISERIE WITH CASS AND KARLO here:

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...omics-annual-1

I saw this searching the solicitations that I mentioned in this page..

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Hmm. I hope not. But you're probably right. I don't want to lose anyone, though!
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I'm personally enjoying her arc (except that it keeps her out of the title too much), since I think it gives Steph the right to make wrong choices without being a villain, but most fans definitely don't see it that way, so it's being incredibly divisive. Add Steph fighting characters who are on Batman's side, and you get those character's fans becoming hostile to Steph.
> 
> Much as I appreciate that Tynion isn't just having Steph be a background, happy-go-lucky quippy character who gets along with everyone but has no plotline (which seems to be what most fans seem to imply that they want when they criticize the current storyline), I do think it's been a tightrope, and farming the writing out to someone who isn't as good as Tynion didn't help anything.


I think some fans want every character arc to play out very safe and black and white fashion. And that's just boring.

----------


## millernumber1

> No it wasn't better than BRE's best issue. I did say _most._(I think you're aware at this point I don't much care for either Eternal as a whole)


Assam, not a fan of the Eternal series? Shock!  :Smile:  No, I know. I just disagree.

----------


## Assam

> Who would lead, though?


Being non-biased, I'd say give the job to Luke. Steph obviously has her own issues and Tynion hasn't built up Cass enough to a point where she could be a leader again. While JPV and Tim could both be suited for the role, Luke is smarter than JPV (Being one of the Fam's super geniuses and all) and unlike Tim, he's actually gotten time to gel with the team.

----------


## millernumber1

> Being non-biased, I'd say give the job to Luke. Steph obviously has her own issues and Tynion hasn't built up Cass enough to a point where she could be a leader again. While JPV and Tim could both be suited for the role, Luke is smarter than JPV (Being one of the Fam's super geniuses and all) and unlike Tim, he's actually gotten time to gel with the team.


I would love a Luke-led team, though I'm think it would be rocky, given that he's only really strong friends with Jean-Paul. But rocky can make for good stories (see also: Deathstroke  :Wink:  )




> I think some fans want every character arc to play out very safe and black and white fashion. And that's just boring.


Agreed. While the current Steph storyline is rough in patches, I think it has the potential for a very good conclusion. I just hope Tynion sticks the landing.

----------


## Assam

> HAHAHAHA... I liked... I think that only Batwoman for change the Tomorrow Tim Future, he mentioned this saga... Karlo maybe can continue one saga, but I can´t see him more time, unfortunatelly..
> 
> Speaking of Clay, another fan of Cass mentioned that he wants one MINISERIE WITH CASS AND KARLO here:
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...omics-annual-1
> 
> I saw this searching the solicitations that I mentioned in this page..


I've actually seen multiple people say they wish Cass and Basil could just get their own book so they could stop reading 'Tec. 




> I think some fans want every character arc to play out very safe and black and white fashion. And that's just boring.


Agreed. 




> Assam, not a fan of the Eternal series? Shock!  No, I know. I just disagree.


Hey, I'm FAR from the biggest hater of those books on this forum. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> I've actually seen multiple people say they wish Cass and Basil could just get their own book so they could stop reading 'Tec. 
> 
> Hey, I'm FAR from the biggest hater of those books on this forum.


I frown at those people who want to stop reading Tec. Then again, I wouldn't have to fight the "Tynion hates Batman" complaints in the threads all the time. Hmm.

Oh, yes. The Robinfans are much, much saltier about BRE than you. And I will freely admit that the second, in particular, is very flawed, especially in the ending. But it was just such a rich experience for me coming back to comics, and I still think there's a lot of gold in both, particularly the first. But I do know those flaws are specifically in areas that wound Cass-first fans, and after so long a wait for Cass's rightful return, it's that much more of a disappointment.

Ah, well.

----------


## adrikito

> I've actually seen multiple people say they wish Cass and Basil could just get their own book so they could stop reading 'Tec.


With comics like Detective Comics, New Super-man(JL China) and Red Hood and the Outlaws... In my case now I prefer the TEAM BOOKS... Because I am in one moment that I see teams with members with BIG potential.. 

For example I saw Old Artemis images before the redhood outlaws rebirth begin, she couldn´t be worst than Joker Daughter but... initially I was not convinced that I would like the character, I was wrong.. and is Bizarro better than I imaginated..


You can show me one Justice Society new book now, and I will try to see this book..

HOWEVER, I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT WISH.. I talked about that one Steph/Cass book should be something good..

----------


## TheCape

I enjoyed the Eternals, the first more than the second (i'm still so mad about most of the Robins not doing anything), but man i had so many problems with then. As for leader of the Gothan Knigths ir Kate leaves, probably Tim or Luke, nobody else seems to have expirience on leadership.

----------


## adrikito

I think that I enjoyed more the first eternal than the second but.... 

The main objective of this comics was recover Steph and Cass.. We have them again, we can be proud of this..

----------


## Frontier

> Who would lead, though? Tim? I feel strongly that even though I don't agree with the "Detective Comics has to be about being a detective" argument, I do think Batman should be in it. I love his current role and depiction by Tynion, so I don't want him to leave either. Also: sales.


I think pre-Flashpoint Tim could probably have led this team pretty solidly, and I think I would probably like that to happen at some point.

Now I suddenly want 'Tec to become a detective team-up/team book with all the major DCU detectives  :Stick Out Tongue: .

There are times when I feel like Tynion justifies Batman being in this book and gives me moments/character beats that I enjoy and times where I feel like he doesn't. 



> I think some fans want every character arc to play out very safe and black and white fashion. And that's just boring.


One person's boring can be another person's enjoyable, though I think this whole Steph storyline has just devolved into being silly at this point so I might be biased. 

It's all in the writing. 



> I've actually seen multiple people say they wish Cass and Basil could just get their own book so they could stop reading 'Tec.


Most of the major Rogues have had series or minis so I don't think it would be too hard to justify something with Clayface, maybe doing a macabre/horror thing or a sympathetic _Tomb of Dracula_-esque take.

----------


## adrikito

> I just realized, what with Steph presumably coming back next week, we never actually saw her live up to her promise to get in the BatFam's way. All we've seen her do is start a blog, beat up Wrath and do crap with notLonnie. Wouldn't it have made sense for there to be a one-shot, maybe after Wrath of Spoiler, where she came into conflict with either Cass and Basil or Luke and JPV? (Maybe even a different match-up?) It could have been cool and made the plot feel like it has more meat than it does currently. Wrath of Spoiler was just too simple and Utopia was a waste, just serving as set-up for Fall of the Batmen.


I hope that the next is see Steph with Leslie like in the past.. the old fans can understand that.. no?





> I think some fans want every character arc to play out very safe and black and white fashion. And that's just boring.


Nothing to regret... Better times are coming for Steph.. As a fan of this character, I understood her actions, my only concern was the other fans opinion..

----------


## millernumber1

> With comics like Detective Comics, New Super-man(JL China) and Red Hood and the Outlaws... In my case now I prefer the TEAM BOOKS... Because I am in one moment that I see teams with members with BIG potential.. 
> 
> For example I saw Old Artemis images before the redhood outlaws rebirth begin, she couldn´t be worst than Joker Daughter but... initially I was not convinced that I would like the character, I was wrong.. and is Bizarro better than I imaginated..
> 
> You can show me one Justice Society new book now, and I will try to see this book..
> 
> HOWEVER, I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT WISH.. I talked about that one Steph/Cass book should be something good..


It is true that I'm reading a lot more team books than I ever thought I would.  :Smile: 

I personally want a Steph/Cass/Tim book. Because I think too many fans don't give Tim the credit he deserves in Steph's existence, and he and Cass have been really good friends when Beechen wasn't writing them.




> I enjoyed the Eternals, the first more than the second (i'm still so mad about most of the Robins not doing anything), but man i had so many problems with then. As for leader of the Gothan Knigths ir Kate leaves, probably Tim or Luke, nobody else seems to have expirience on leadership.


See, I still think that the Robins did a lot in BRE, it was just bad plotting on Tynion's part that the final few issues didn't highlight all they did.




> I think that I enjoyed more the first eternal than the second but.... 
> 
> The main objective of this comics was recover Steph and Cass.. We have them again, we can be proud of this..


This is true. And I think it's just gravy that the first Eternal was really solid, even with its flaws.

----------


## Caivu

> She's really the only member that could leave as this point besides Basil, but I still don't see it happening. Still, in the event that it does, I have my music ready to go: 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWLIgjB9gGw


What happened to make you dislike her so much? You didn't use to, and it seems awfully sudden.

----------


## adrikito

> It is true that I'm reading a lot more team books than I ever thought I would. 
> 
> I personally want a Steph/Cass/Tim book. Because I think too many fans don't give Tim the credit he deserves in Steph's existence, and he and Cass have been really good friends when Beechen wasn't writing them..


For this and because that relationship is very good(like the Ying and Yang, these kind of character that you can separate but... they are better together than with other people.. and they will return as a couple) I will not change him as Steph boyfriend..

I don´t know the opinion of Tim fans but... I think that she will be the favorite girlfriend.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think pre-Flashpoint Tim could probably have led this team pretty solidly, and I think I would probably like that to happen at some point.
> 
> Now I suddenly want 'Tec to become a detective team-up/team book with all the major DCU detectives .
> 
> There are times when I feel like Tynion justifies Batman being in this book and gives me moments/character beats that I enjoy and times where I feel like he doesn't. 
> 
> One person's boring can be another person's enjoyable, though I think this whole Steph storyline has just devolved into being silly at this point so I might be biased. 
> 
> It's all in the writing. 
> ...


I think that the Steph storyline has suffered from being farmed out. I don't think it's silly, but I also think that the demands of a team book that's also caught up in some universe-spanning events are stretching it a bit past what it needs to be a solid storyline.

You are not the only one who's mentioned a Bruce/Elongated Man/Detective Chimp/Slam Bradley/etc team up.




> I hope that the next is see Steph with Leslie like in the past.. the old fans can understand that.. no?
> 
> Nothing to regret... Better times are coming for Steph.. As a fan of this character, I understood her actions, my only concern was the other fans opinion..


Yup. Steph and Leslie should have a good relationship, I think. I would love to see more of Leslie - one of the few good things in Utopia part 2 was Leslie showing up. And you're spot on, adrikito - the fan response to Steph is my only real problem with the plotline (until Sebela failed to stick the landing in the second issue of Utopia).




> What happened to make you dislike her so much? You didn't use to, and it seems awfully sudden.


This happened: https://jessedelperdang.deviantart.c...g-22-178829022

Confirmation from an interior source that Cass's series was cancelled for Kate's series. I personally don't know how much I trust this account as the full story, since it's very tangential, posted a long time after the events in question, and not completely corroborated, but it's definitely more than just a rumor at this point.




> For this and because that relationship is very good(like the Ying and Yang, these kind of character that you can separate but... they are better together than with other people.. and they will return as a couple) I will not change him as Steph boyfriend..


Agreed! I think Tim and Steph are good together, when written well.

----------


## Assam

> Now I suddenly want 'Tec to become a detective team-up/team book with all the major DCU detectives .


I've brought up this idea before, and so long as Cass and Steph still had homes, I'd be totally on board. Bruce, Ralph and Sue, Detective Chimp and Renee Montoya with appearances from Tim and Wesley Dodds sounds good to me.




> What happened to make you dislike her so much? You didn't use to, and it seems awfully sudden.


Remember when I first got unbanned and said I was back and more bitter than ever? Wasn't joking about that.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Actually you are right about it being sudden. I suffer from severe anxiety (Its been especially bad this past month) and long story short, something entirely unrelated triggered me, thus causing a string of painful thoughts on a number of topics, both important and not important, including the point I've brought up before '2017 was Cass's best year in a decade but she was still treated worse than every other main BatFamily member and several non-mains'. Then my brain started going off on a bunch of tangents about each member and all the way's they've been treated better. When I got to Kate, it just seemed so overwhelming how much more she gets, also reminding me of the other reasons I have to be a bit petty resentful toward her (Cass's book being cancelled because of her creation and Kate getting to survive the New52), and then I started screaming about it at the top of my lungs uncontrollably. At that point I was excused from class and I eventually calmed down, but I've been pretty sour since. To the point that when I read her lines now, even for older issues, because of her naturally smug and condescending attitude, not bad character traits in themselves, they really just piss me off.

----------


## Caivu

> This happened: https://jessedelperdang.deviantart.c...g-22-178829022
> 
> Confirmation from an interior source that Cass's series was cancelled for Kate's series.


A series that didn't end up happening anyway. And that's something to be upset with editorial about, if anyone.




> Actually you are right about it being sudden. I suffer from severe anxiety (Its been especially bad this past month) and long story short, something entirely unrelated triggered me, thus causing a string of painful thoughts on a number of topics, both important and not important, including the point I've brought up before '2017 was Cass's best year in a decade but she was still treated worse than every other main BatFamily member and several non-mains'. Then my brain started going off on a bunch of tangents about each member and all the way's they've been treated better. When I got to Kate, it just seemed so overwhelming how much more she gets, also reminding me of the other reasons I have to be a bit petty resentful toward her (Cass's book being cancelled because of her creation and Kate getting to survive the New52), and then I started screaming about it and the top of my lungs. At that point I was excused from class and I eventually calmed down, but I've been pretty sour since. To the point that when I read her lines now, even for older issues, because of her naturally smug and condescending attitude, not bad character traits in themselves, they really just piss me off.


Well... damn. I don't know what to say to that.

I guess the only part I can speak to is this:

"(Cass's book being cancelled because of her creation and Kate getting to survive the New52)"

I don't understand why you're upset with a _character_ because of that. That's on the editors, like I mentioned above (though in different ways).

----------


## adrikito

> Yup. Steph and Leslie should have a good relationship, I think. I would love to see more of Leslie - one of the few good things in Utopia part 2 was Leslie showing up. And you're spot on, adrikito - the fan response to Steph is my only real problem with the plotline (until Sebela failed to stick the landing in the second issue of Utopia).
> 
> Agreed! I think Tim and Steph are good together, when written well.


We saw Leslie, two times in Steph way, in two important moments about Steph(She appeared in Anarky hideout.. this could have not happened).. I think that a third time is possible..

Well written.. Like any character, King Batman is something that I hate... In all these years is the first time that I see one batman that I don´t consider batman.

----------


## Assam

> I don't understand why you're upset with a _character_ because of that. That's on the editors, like I mentioned above (though in different ways).


Hence why I openly admit that it's petty. I'm not always rational when it comes to my feelings toward fiction, but I'm smart enough to be self-aware.

----------


## millernumber1

> We saw Leslie, two times in Steph way, in two important moments about Steph(She appeared in Anarky hideout.. this could have not happened).. I think that a third time is possible..
> 
> Well written.. Like any character, King Batman is something that I hate... In all these years is the first time that I see one batman that I don´t consider batman.


Very interesting. I personally really like the way King is writing the character of Batman, if not the plotting.  :Smile:  I hate Morrison and Snyder's Batman characterization a lot.

----------


## TheCape

> Very interesting. I personally really like the way King is writing the character of Batman, if not the plotting.**I hate Morrison and Snyder's Batman characterization a lot.


Why do you dislike then?.
Just curious.

----------


## Frontier

> Very interesting. I personally really like the way King is writing the character of Batman, if not the plotting.  I hate Morrison and Snyder's Batman characterization a lot.


There are times where Snyder's Batman feels off to me but now I'm honestly debating to myself whether Morrison wrote a Batman that sounded more normal then King's  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> Very interesting. I personally really like the way King is writing the character of Batman, if not the plotting.  I hate Morrison and Snyder's Batman characterization a lot.


I leave this soon... then I saw Bane saga and goodbye.. Despite I like the Joker, I heard about one sad Joker and Riddler as rival, as something not interesting. 
 I hate Riddler.

Unlike Talia(she killed Damian with Heretic) I don´t hate Catwoman but I never wanted Batman married, nothing interesting again... and batman with one firearm is not batman for me.. and for see Duke in the future here, again, I am not interested..

Steph should appear here for unknown reasons for make me buy another King issue.. However, this didn´t work with the current birds of prey.. The review before the chapter..

----------


## millernumber1

> Why do you dislike then?.
> Just curious.





> There are times where Snyder's Batman feels off to me but now I'm honestly debating to myself whether Morrison wrote a Batman that sounded more normal then King's .


Snyder's voice for Batman just never feels like Bruce to me. I'd have to do a close read of the Batman writers who "feel like Bruce" and then Snyder's to figure out precisely why I dislike his voice for Bruce (I love his voice for Dick), but it's definitely always been there - it's possibly an element of the overly macho, but I can't say for certain at this point.  Morrison just seems to write everyone expressing their feelings as exposition for the reader all the time. Now, both of them do have moments where I like their Bruce, but the vast majority of their work I have a serious problem with their voicing on that front. (Oddly, Morrison did a fairly decent Steph in Batman Inc.)

For me, King's voice goes for the same kind of poetry that Frank Miller's does, but a bit more artificial. I can definitely see why people hate it, but for some reason, it works for me more often than it doesn't.




> I leave this soon... I saw Bane saga and goodbye.. Despite I like the Joker, I heard about one sad Joker and Riddler as rival, as something not interesting. 
>  I hate Riddler.
> 
> Unlike Talia(she killed Damian with Heretic) I don´t hate Catwoman but I never wanted Batman married, nothing interesting again... and batman with one firearm is not batman for me.. and for see Duke in the future here, again, I am not interested..
> 
> Steph should appear here for unknown reasons for make me buy another King issue..


Well, I did beg King to write Steph in Batman when I saw him at Baltimore!  :Smile:  (I am also a huge Batman/Catwoman shipper, and would love to see him marry her.)

----------


## adrikito

> Well, I did beg King to write Steph in Batman when I saw him at Baltimore!  (I am also a huge Batman/Catwoman shipper, and would love to see him marry her.)


I always see him as one BIG FATHER with many adopted sons, and one real son, all they inside his war against the crime.. With his obsession with Gotham, he can´t make happy one woman..

Nothing against her... Marry him with Talia and I will be angry... Unlike Oliver Queen with Dinah, I don´t see Batman(the eternal single playboy) as the kind of character that is married and... 

WHAT IS THE NEXT FOR CATWOMAN? Maybe with one normal woman Vicky Vale(you can´t interrupt her work) and this will be more easy without create problems for her...

Maybe is something interesting for some years but...  I can´t see this permanent.

----------


## Assam

It's kind of sad that out of Morrison, Snyder, Tynion and King, Tynion is the only one who I think gets Bruce and his voice.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nothing against her... Marry him with Talia and I will be angry... Unlike Oliver Queen with Dinah, I don´t see Batman(the eternal single playboy) as the kind of character that is married and... 
> 
> WHAT IS THE NEXT FOR CATWOMAN? Maybe with one normal woman Vicky Vale(you can´t interrupt her work) and this will be more easy without create problems for her...
> 
> Maybe is something interesting for some years but...  I can´t see this permanent.


For me, I've always thought the playboy was an act, and Bruce really does want a lifelong connection with someone. Which probably explains why I like King.  :Smile:   I know there's lot of problems with a married Batman, but I have hope!




> It's kind of sad that out of Morrison, Snyder, Tynion and King, Tynion is the only one who I think gets Bruce and his voice.


Well, I think all of them clearly appeal to many more people than us, but I agree - Tynion writes "my" Bruce pretty darn perfectly.

----------


## adrikito

I changed King Batman for Gleason Superman, I read all the issues.. and I mentioned time ago that the family things were not for me.. I don´t like the kid yet, but unlike another characters is only this, no hate..


Maybe with another writer like Gleason(I prefer him in RSOB again than this, of course.) I saw this better... If I see real respect for the ex-robins, his sons.. and not only the woman..

----------


## TheCape

Snyder was my first run with the characther, but after reading many older stories, i had to agreed, in comparison with those past takes, his Bruce always sounded weird. Morrison is one of those writters who i usually like conceptually speaking, but not so much on execution, he still has some good moments, like the final page of "The Return of Bruce Wayne" with Bruce saying "not until the night is over" holding his costume, good finalr for a pretty weird mini.

----------


## Frontier

> It's kind of sad that out of Morrison, Snyder, Tynion and King, Tynion is the only one who I think gets Bruce and his voice.


And even he admits he writes him like B:TAS Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I changed King Batman for Gleason Superman, I read all the issues.. and I mentioned time ago that the family things were not for me.. I don´t like the kid yet, but unlike another characters is only this, no hate..
> 
> Maybe with another writer like Gleason(I prefer him in RSOB again than this, of course.) I saw this better... If I see real respect for the ex-robins, his sons.. and not only the woman..


I love Gleason's Robin, Son of Batman! (Though I wish Steph had shown up, obviously - but Maya is amazing!)  I think King really does love the Robins, but we'll have to see how he handles Tim when he comes back.  :Smile: 




> Snyder was my first run with the characther, but after reading many older stories, i had to agreed, in comparison with those past takes, his Bruce always sounded weird. Morrison is one of those writters who i usually like conceptually speaking, but not so much on execution, he still has some good moments, like the final page of "The Return of Bruce Wayne" with Bruce saying "not until the night is over" holding his costume, good finalr for a pretty weird mini.


Snyder's is great with themes, not very good with voice or balancing exposition/factdumps, and terrible with endings. I think I pretty much completely agree with you on Morrison - great concepts, weird execution.




> And even he admits he writes him like B:TAS Batman .


So, basically like Dini? I'm okay with that, though Dixon is also "my Bruce".

----------


## Frontier

> So, basically like Dini? I'm okay with that, though Dixon is also "my Bruce".


Well, Burnett, Dini, Reaves, et al. 

Dini had a big hand in B:TAS but it was a collaborative process and he didn't write ever single episode. _Mask of the Phantasm_ had, like, five writers.

----------


## adrikito

> I love Gleason's Robin, Son of Batman! (Though I wish Steph had shown up, obviously - but Maya is amazing!)  I think King really does love the Robins, but we'll have to see how he handles Tim when he comes back.


The same... Initially Goliath shocked me... Damian with one monster? bad.... But he is great, like the current ULTIMATE BIZARRO.. Since the begin I knew that Bizarro presence was something good but not this, the perfect bizarro.. 

About Maya... With only this short comic, I see her as the definitive character to be Damian perfect girlfriend or even wife.. She was almost like make Steph of Damian generation giving the chance of make her Damian girlfriend..

I feel proud of make Damian and Maya part of my avatar.... Steph batgirl is in my profile picture with Damian(however, I mentioned this before)

----------


## TheCape

About King writting Tim, i'm going to put a quote of mine from Damian thread



> Oh man, i already imagine it, Jason would do a sexual reference and Tim won't get it and somebody would make a comment about him being a virgin


Althougth, i'm sort of amused by the fact that he called Tim "the second worlds greatest detective" in Robin War, made he would made canon that Tim is able to fall asleep on anything  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, Burnett, Dini, Reaves, et al. 
> 
> Dini had a big hand in B:TAS but it was a collaborative process and he didn't write ever single episode. _Mask of the Phantasm_ had, like, five writers.


Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to disrespect all the writers on the show. Dini's just the one I know who's written a lot of comics in canon as well as for the show (and I really like most of them).




> The same... Initially Goliath shocked me... Damian with one monster? bad.... But he is great, like the current ULTIMATE BIZARRO.. Since the begin I knew that Bizarro presence was something good but not this, the perfect bizarro.. 
> 
> About Maya... With only this comic, I see her as the definitive character to be Damian perfect girlfriend or even wife..


Oh, man, Damian and Goliath's backstory was so good! I dunno if I can see Damian ever being allowed to get old enough to really date, but Maya is amazing.




> About King writting Tim, i'm going to put a quote of mine from Damian thread
> 
> Althougth, i'm sort of amused by the fact that he called Tim "the second worlds greatest detective" in Robin War, made he would made canon that Tim is able to fall asleep on anything


Hmmm. I am a big King fan (obviously), so I'm always up for trying. That being said, I really didn't like Batman #34 - too much bickering and sniping, not enough banter and actual connection. Gorgeous art, though.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## adrikito

Cute batgirl steph in this shirt in tumblr:

shirt stephanie brown batgirl.jpg

----------


## adrikito

Stephanie brown rules, black mask:

stephanie brown batgirl winner black mask.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> 


That's adorbs! Everyone's attitudes in the second pic are perfect!




> Cute batgirl steph in this shirt in tumblr:
> 
> shirt stephanie brown batgirl.jpg


Yes! That's what I like to see - people who wear their love of Steph on their sleeves. Well, shirt.




> Stephanie brown rules, black mask:
> 
> stephanie brown batgirl winner black mask.jpg


Oh, man. I still haven't convinced myself to pay 100 dollars to buy that Steph figure, but I'm so tempted now!

----------


## Frontier

> 


Is that Barbara or Kate next to Bruce?

----------


## millernumber1

> Is that Barbara or Kate next to Bruce?


Babs, I think, unless this is 52 Kate. It also doesn't look like her skin tone or expression.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Is that Barbara or Kate next to Bruce?


Babs. Bruce, Alfred, Robins and Batgirls. You can tell it's Babs from the hair and because she doesn't have Kate's skin tone.

----------


## millernumber1

> Babs. Bruce, Alfred, Robins and Batgirls. You can tell it's Babs from the hair and because she doesn't have Kate's skin tone.


Haha, same!

----------


## Caivu

> Babs. Bruce, Alfred, Robins and Batgirls. You can tell it's Babs from the hair and because she doesn't have Kate's skin tone.


Or tattoos. Or eye color.

Plus the original artist tagged it as Barbara.

----------


## millernumber1

> Or tattoos. Or eye color.
> 
> Plus the original artist tagged it as Barbara.


True. Helps when peeps provide source links.  :Smile: 

http://lightningstrikes-art.tumblr.c...d-by-crime-and

----------


## adrikito

> Yes! That's what I like to see - people who wear their love of Steph on their sleeves. Well, shirt.
> 
> Oh, man. I still haven't convinced myself to pay 100 dollars to buy that Steph figure, but I'm so tempted now!


Yeah, is something good...

I saw this image and... I imaginated that all steph fans would like this.. 

stephanie brown spoiler batgirl FIGHT ME.jpg



tittle FIGHT ME(unfortunatelly she can´t smile here). Like Steph said in that image to black mask.. or like in the POST-CRISIS Steph&Cass trainings..

----------


## adrikito

YOUNG JUSTICE, is related with Steph.. Of YOUNG JUSTICE WIKI(Latest news):

-*Nolan North revealed they've recorded five episodes so far.* — 6/20/17
- *Season 3 will have 26 episodes*. — 7/21/17
-Ten scripts are finished, 12 are in progress. — 7/21/17
-Voice work for 15-16 episodes has been completed. — 10/7/17

http://youngjustice.wikia.com/wiki/Y...ice:_Outsiders

----------


## millernumber1

Interesting. I was hoping for a early spring (Feb, March) release, but this is sounding more like summer. We shall see!

----------


## Harpsikord

> Interesting. I was hoping for a early spring (Feb, March) release, but this is sounding more like summer. We shall see!


Summer seems about right, seeing as they're also only starting to film Titans right now - presumably, if even yet. And they're gonna wait till that's done to release the streaming service, guaranteed.

----------


## adrikito

> Interesting. I was hoping for a early spring (Feb, March) release, but this is sounding more like summer. We shall see!


I was looking one thing in YJ wiki and for saw new information about the season 3 I found this information..

I need heard the SPOILER ALERT before think in this serie return.. Or the wait will be worse..

DFR-AEeVYAAR7Qg.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I was looking one thing in YJ wiki and for saw new information about the season 3 I found this information..
> 
> I need heard the SPOILER ALERT before think in this serie return.. Or the wait will be worse..
> 
> DFR-AEeVYAAR7Qg.jpg


We do need our Spoiler alerts!

----------


## Frontier

> I was looking one thing in YJ wiki and for saw new information about the season 3 I found this information..
> 
> I need heard the SPOILER ALERT before think in this serie return.. Or the wait will be worse..
> 
> DFR-AEeVYAAR7Qg.jpg


Looks like it's from a Spoiler cartoon  :Wink: .

----------


## adrikito

> Looks like it's from a Spoiler cartoon .


I saw this in twitter.. One fan, after heard about this season..

----------


## millernumber1

Damion Scott Robin Steph NYCC 2017.jpg

https://twitter.com/DamionScott2/sta...37682023075840 (from NYCC 2017)

The creator of the legend!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Damion Scott Robin Steph NYCC 2017.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/DamionScott2/sta...37682023075840 (from NYCC 2017)
> 
> The creator of the legend!


Hahaha.. Steph Robin strikes again..
*
Assam* should be interested in this, in the link in this twitter I saw 2 images of Cass Cain under Steph..

----------


## adrikito

No spoiler in Detective Comics... I saw this in one comment here..

That cover cheated us..

However, one friend told me that Tim of Tomorrow mentioned her..

----------


## AlvinDraper

> No spoiler in Detective Comics... I saw this in one comment here..
> 
> That cover cheated us..
> 
> However, one friend told me that Tim of Tomorrow mentioned her..


Yeah...

----------


## AlvinDraper

Well, seems like she's gonna be in the next issue (Not just on the cover, I hope!)
3S1EJ8K.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, seems like she's gonna be in the next issue (Not just on the cover, I hope!)
> 3S1EJ8K.jpg


Someone asked! I must go fan over their twitter!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Well, seems like she's gonna be in the next issue (Not just on the cover, I hope!)
> 3S1EJ8K.jpg


I should understand that this time, she will appear... They are a good couple, I doubt that Tnyion thinks the opposite.. She was angry for lose him.. Thanks for the other image too.

YOU ARE QUICK, *millernumber1*, when I saw his post, your comment was not here..

----------


## millernumber1

> I should understand that this time, she will appear... They are a good couple, I doubt that Tnyion thinks the opposite.. She was angry for lose him..
> 
> YOU ARE QUICK, *millernumber1*, when I saw his post, your comment was not here..


She'd better! That cover was such a trick!

----------


## adrikito

Even 6 years later, Steph fans remember this batgirl:

batgirl_stephanie brown.jpg

This costume is in a DIFFERENT LEVEL if you compare this with Babs Burnside costume.. For this spoiler returned with this design.

----------


## millernumber1

> Even 6 years later, Steph fans remember this batgirl:
> 
> batgirl_stephanie brown.jpg
> 
> This costume is in a DIFFERENT LEVEL if you compare this with Babs Burnside costume.. For this spoiler returned with this design.


It is a great costume! And the new Spoiler costume has some pretty great inspirations from it.

Where'd that awesome pic come from?

----------


## adrikito

> It is a great costume! And the new Spoiler costume has some pretty great inspirations from it.
> 
> Where'd that awesome pic come from?


DEVIANTART:

https://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgirl-710084689

----------


## millernumber1

> DEVIANTART:
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgirl-710084689


Really cool. I love Steph's attitude in that pic!

----------


## adrikito

Nightwing Fan Film, you can see two young girls(Only in the begin and the end of this video training), one blonde:

----------


## millernumber1

> Nightwing Fan Film, you can see two young girls(Only in the begin and the end of this video training), one blonde:


Very interesting! I like the Steph and Cass actresses, and it's nice that Helena's there as well, so all three of my faves in one video! Some good callbacks to Grayson, of course, as well as to Cass's Batgirl run with Steph and Cass training.

----------


## adrikito

Is Strange, *Assam* never said nothing about this... He was more focused in that idiot of the other video(Cass Cain is antihero)..

Looking images of Damian, I found this image with Steph:

Stephanie Brown batgirl Damian Wayne Robin.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Is Strange, *Assam* never said nothing about this... He was more focused in that idiot of the other video(Cass Cain is antihero)..
> 
> Looking images of Damian, I found this image with Steph:
> 
> Stephanie Brown batgirl Damian Wayne Robin.jpg


Awww. Good times, Steph and the demon Robin.  :Smile: 

I'm betting Assam just didn't read Grayson. (And never will now, because King. I personally really like King.  :Smile:  )

----------


## Assam

> Is Strange, *Assam* never said nothing about this...*He*


1. Not a he. (That's it, I'm making this clear in my signature) 
2. I'd seen it before, didn't really have anything to say. The inclusion of them is appreciated, some fun lines, but overall I'm not a fan of the production, nor how Cass speaks perfectly. 




> I'm betting Assam just didn't read Grayson.


Read a handful of issues. Found them mediocre. 

Also, in regards to "never will", yeah, Victor Mancha, Mark Doyle, Holly Robinson; three strikes he's out (And that's just the big stuff). I know some people think it's silly but it's just how my brain works. I _wanted_ to catch up on Mister Miracle, but I just couldn't bring myself to get them.

----------


## TheCape

ixQFh9T.jpg
The panels of the Batgirl series that made me felt in love with Stephanie's characther.

----------


## Dataweaver

So: how much of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history do you think can be restored without significantly undermining her N52 history? For instance, recasting her involvement in Batman Eternal so that it all happened, but it wasn't her first time as Spoiler, would not constitute a significant undermining of N52 events in my book.

----------


## Assam

> ixQFh9T.jpg
> The panels of the Batgirl series that made me felt in love with Stephanie's characther.


You know I never thought of it this way, but Steph's "History of the BatFamily" is sort of her book's equivalent to the "Cass knocks out Steph" running gag. If you're primarily a fan of the book they stem from, you love it and think it's really funny. But if you're more a fan of the opposite Batgirl, it just kinda pisses you off the more it's circulated around.

----------


## Harpsikord

> So: how much of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history do you think can be restored without significantly undermining her N52 history? For instance, recasting her involvement in Batman Eternal so that it all happened, but it wasn't her first time as Spoiler, would not constitute a significant undermining of N52 events in my book.


Most of her early Spoiler years. The pregnancy. Anything before War Games, really.

Which unfortunately means that her time as Batgirl even renamed to be Spoiler couldn't happen.




> You know I never thought of it this way, but Steph's "History of the BatFamily" is sort of her book's equivalent to the "Cass knocks out Steph" running gag. If you're primarily a fan of the book they stem from, you love it and think it's really funny. But if you're more a fan of the opposite Batgirl, it just kinda pisses you off the more it's circulated around.


I don't understand what the history of the batfamily stuff is bad about when it comes to Cass? Whereas Cass knocking out Steph kind of shows BOTH characters in a bad light.

----------


## Assam

> I don't understand what the history of the batfamily stuff is bad about when it comes to Cass?


Really? Cause the fact that _she wasn't mentioned_ is pretty glaring. 




> Whereas Cass knocking out Steph kind of shows BOTH characters in a bad light.


I disagree. I don't believe it shows either character in a bad light. For Cass, is simply shows her confidence in her own abilities to the point that she thinks less of others in that regard, as well as an overprotective nature of those around her. To different extents, these are character flaws, not things that make her look bad. And for Steph, yeah, she's not as skilled as Cass and getting clocked by her in it of itself doesn't look bad, and is pretty funny the way it's framed. Where I agree with some that a problem arose is after War Games, when a lot of people started thinking of Steph as incompetent, those panels circulating around didn't do Steph any favors.

----------


## millernumber1

> Also, in regards to "never will", yeah, Victor Mancha, Mark Doyle, Holly Robinson; three strikes he's out (And that's just the big stuff). I know some people think it's silly but it's just how my brain works. I _wanted_ to catch up on Mister Miracle, but I just couldn't bring myself to get them.


I get it. I think King's not really as anti-Cass as some of his statements have made it seem, but he's definitely not super interested in writing Cass. Maybe he's like Snyder - as a reader, he's a fan, but as a writer, he doesn't have much to say?




> So: how much of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history do you think can be restored without significantly undermining her N52 history? For instance, recasting her involvement in Batman Eternal so that it all happened, but it wasn't her first time as Spoiler, would not constitute a significant undermining of N52 events in my book.


I agree with Endsong - pretty much all of the Dixon stuff can be filled in in some way. But her time as Robin and Batgirl...yeah. Robin can't be allowed because it's between Tim and Damian and even only three months made a huge impact on continuity (at least, I think it did). And Batgirl is so dependent on Cass and Babs having their history restored - and Babs hasn't had enough of it restored, even with the Bensons doing their best. I could maybe see some storylines like The Flood being restored a bit, fitting them into the Batgirl #46-52 slot, with Steph as Spoiler, and we know some version of the Flood happened, because it's foundational for Death of Oracle, which we know some version happened since it was key to the Oracle plotline in Bird of Prey last year. But Batgirl Rising is out, and Batgirl: The Lesson is precluded by Cluemaster being still dead.




> You know I never thought of it this way, but Steph's "History of the BatFamily" is sort of her book's equivalent to the "Cass knocks out Steph" running gag. If you're primarily a fan of the book they stem from, you love it and think it's really funny. But if you're more a fan of the opposite Batgirl, it just kinda pisses you off the more it's circulated around.


That makes sense.




> Most of her early Spoiler years. The pregnancy. Anything before War Games, really.
> 
> Which unfortunately means that her time as Batgirl even renamed to be Spoiler couldn't happen.





> I disagree. I don't believe it shows either character in a bad light. For Cass, is simply shows her confidence in her own abilities to the point that she thinks less of others in that regard, as well as an overprotective nature of those around her. To different extents, these are character flaws, not things that make her look bad. And for Steph, yeah, she's not as skilled as Cass and getting clocked by her in it of itself doesn't look bad, and is pretty funny the way it's framed. Where I agree with some that a problem arose is after War Games, when a lot of people started thinking of Steph as incompetent, those panels circulating around didn't do Steph any favors.


You make a decent case, but that's not the way I think it's presented in the book itself - particularly in the way Babs tells Cass to hit Steph harder because she's annoyed by Steph's justified anger at having a broken jaw.

That being said, I don't really think continuing that particular discussion would benefit the appreciation of either Cass or Steph that much. I'm a much bigger fan of the scenes where they train together.

----------


## Assam

> I get it. I think King's not really as anti-Cass as some of his statements have made it seem, but he's definitely not super interested in writing Cass. Maybe he's like Snyder - as a reader, he's a fan, but as a writer, he doesn't have much to say?


As I was trying to say there, his comments about Cass are the _least_ of my issues with him. (Though I'd be lying if I said they didn't bother me at all.)




> I'm a much bigger fan of the scenes where they train together.


Definitely agree on that.

----------


## millernumber1

> As I was trying to say there, his comments about Cass are the _least_ of my issues with him. (Though I'd be lying if I said they didn't bother me at all.)


Interesting. I will admit, King's nowhere close to Tynion for me (I don't buy Batman regularly, but I've bought every single issue of Tec so far), but maybe it's just my dislike of Snyder and Morrison, but King's been something I actually enjoy reading. Probably because I like Batman and Catwoman as a ship.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Interesting. I will admit, King's nowhere close to Tynion for me (I don't buy Batman regularly, but I've bought every single issue of Tec so far), but maybe it's just my dislike of Snyder and Morrison, but King's been something I actually enjoy reading. Probably because I like Batman and Catwoman as a ship.


I'll say this for each. Morrison has written the most stuff I like in general (Yes, even with the small amount of things I told you I liked from him), but I feel he had the largest long-term negative impact on the franchise. (King is definitely in second though.) Snyder I've only read a few storylines from and didn't care for his Nu52 work, but he DID write the best Bat stories of the three with his Pre-Nu52 stories Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham. And King is the one I'm currently the most pissed at, but at the same time, despite my frustrations regarding Victor, I still really like Vision as a story. 

I'd say Tynion is about Snyder's equal in terms of writing quality, each having their own strengths and weaknesses.

----------


## Dataweaver

Is War Games itself the stocking point? Because if so, I think there's a way around it.

Steph's time as Robin ended on a traumatic note, with Batman during her. Originally, this lead directly into War Games, which _also_ ended on a traumatic note: her apparent death, which was later retconned to Leslie snuggling her out of the country and her taking a “sabbatical” in Africa before returning later on in Dixon's second run. So why not just skip straight from “fired by Batman” to “sabbatical in Africa”, with the firing being the justification for the sabbatical? And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?

----------


## Assam

> And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?


Pretty much all of her post-War Games history is as Batgirl. And while the events from her Batgirl book could be said to have happened with her as Spoiler, they kind of lose any meaning without the full history behind those stories.

----------


## millernumber1

> Is War Games itself the stocking point? Because if so, I think there's a way around it.
> 
> Steph's time as Robin ended on a traumatic note, with Batman during her. Originally, this lead directly into War Games, which _also_ ended on a traumatic note: her apparent death, which was later retconned to Leslie snuggling her out of the country and her taking a “sabbatical” in Africa before returning later on in Dixon's second run. So why not just skip straight from “fired by Batman” to “sabbatical in Africa”, with the firing being the justification for the sabbatical? And if you do that, how much of Stephanie's post-War Games history could be recovered?


I think it's Steph being Robin. The relationship with her and Tim and her and Bruce does not seem to be consistent with her being either Batgirl or Robin. The problem with Steph's non-Batgirl post-War Games history is that it's pretty disposable (or stupid) - FabNic just had her running around screwing with Tim's head at Batman's behest during RIP. The big things are really her relationship with Cass (which has definitely not been restored, and needs to be), and her relationship with Tim, which is on its way. Slowly. Hopefully.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree with Endsong - pretty much all of the Dixon stuff can be filled in in some way. But her time as Robin and Batgirl...yeah. Robin can't be allowed because it's between Tim and Damian and even only three months made a huge impact on continuity (at least, I think it did). And Batgirl is so dependent on Cass and Babs having their history restored - and Babs hasn't had enough of it restored, even with the Bensons doing their best. I could maybe see some storylines like The Flood being restored a bit, fitting them into the Batgirl #46-52 slot, with Steph as Spoiler, and we know some version of the Flood happened, because it's foundational for Death of Oracle, which we know some version happened since it was key to the Oracle plotline in Bird of Prey last year. But Batgirl Rising is out, and Batgirl: The Lesson is precluded by Cluemaster being still dead.


They would also have to come up with a plausible reason why Steph would go back to being Spoiler to justify Babs becoming Batgirl again, if they tried to restore the Batgirls' careers while still keeping things relatively status quo.

----------


## TheCape

Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.

----------


## Frontier

> Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.


We can still hope though  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> They would also have to come up with a plausible reason why Steph would go back to being Spoiler to justify Babs becoming Batgirl again, if they tried to restore the Batgirls' careers while still keeping things relatively status quo.


Yeah. I'm betting it would be "I filled in for Babs when she was in Asia or something." But this Steph is two years younger, and in a very different place in her career (though I personally think her time away from the Knights is a deliberate attempt by Tynion to give her some of that stage of her career - a more solo-focused career, not dependent on Bruce or Tim for her plans or materiel.




> Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.


I think there's a solid chance of at least some version of Steph's history with Tim being restored. I think that sadly, you're right about Cass. We've gotten the re-do of Cass's discovery that Shiva is her mother, so that's obviously not going to be restored.




> We can still hope though .


That's why we're Steph fans, isn't it?  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

All of this is pretty much why I have to maintain my headcanon that New Earth was never touched by Manhattan, and it was just a very similar Earth that had its time stolen. Without believing that to be true, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything from Rebirth.

----------


## millernumber1

> All of this is pretty much why I have to maintain my headcanon that New Earth was never touched by Manhattan, and it was just a very similar Earth that had its time stolen. Without believing that to be true, I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything from Rebirth.


I mean, it's New Earth, not Earth 0, right?  :Smile:

----------


## Dataweaver

> Frankly, i think that there is zero chance of Cassandra and Steph times to be restored any time soon.


That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.


Very true! It's why I still have hope!

----------


## Assam

> That's what I thought about Tim's origin before a lonely place of living restored it.


Tim was never wiped from canon and didn't have a history of editorial bias against him. The fact that the bat symbol was banned from appearing on the Orphan suit for the reasoning of not wanting any young woman to wear the symbol besides Babs basically confirms that there's no chance at all until there's an editorial change. Hell, even now in Bombshells, Cass is finally in, but _not_ as one of the Batgirls.

----------


## Dataweaver

Let's address the Cassandra stuff in the Cassandra thread why don't we?

----------


## Assam

> Let's address the Cassandra stuff in the Cassandra thread why don't we?


The information is germane to the discussion.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I think it's Steph being Robin. The relationship with her and Tim and her and Bruce does not seem to be consistent with her being either Batgirl or Robin. The problem with Steph's non-Batgirl post-War Games history is that it's pretty disposable (or stupid) - FabNic just had her running around screwing with Tim's head at Batman's behest during RIP. The big things are really her relationship with Cass (which has definitely not been restored, and needs to be), and her relationship with Tim, which is on its way. Slowly. Hopefully.


I intend to look into the possibilities of restoring Cass' backstory elsewhere. For now, I'll agree that restoring that is important to restoring Steph's time as Batgirl: Cass was, after all, the one who gave Steph the push to get her to become Batgirl. 

As for her relationship with Tim: what needs to be restored? I'm not talking about shared history; a big part of the point of this exercise is to restore as much of that history as possible; and already we've agreed that at the very least, all of her history prior to becoming Robin can be restored without significant disruption of post-Flashpoint events. So don't look at the question of whether or not she could have been Robin in terms of the current status quo; look at it in terms of much of the pre-Flashpoint history having been restored. Recall that for much of that history, she was dating Tim; that dovetails surprisingly well with their portrayal in 'Tec, only with more buildup before they took their relationship to the next level.

----------


## adrikito

> You know I never thought of it this way, but Steph's "History of the BatFamily" is sort of her book's equivalent to the "Cass knocks out Steph" running gag. If you're primarily a fan of the book they stem from, you love it and think it's really funny. But if you're more a fan of the opposite Batgirl, it just kinda pisses you off the more it's circulated around.


I put recently one imagen of* Cass winning easily Steph(is funny)*...I love both characters.. *That can not bother me(it´s reality*, not something crazy like D..k.. winning Jason).. For bother me you should use characters that I don´t like or I hate, something really crazy, or writers that I don´t like..




> So: how much of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history do you think can be restored without significantly undermining her N52 history? For instance, recasting her involvement in Batman Eternal so that it all happened, but it wasn't her first time as Spoiler, would not constitute a significant undermining of N52 events in my book.


Even if Barbara is Batgirl, this is one IMPORTANT Thing of both girls story.. Suddenly, the Titans existed thanks to Titans Hunt... And as you mentioned Tim was Robin again.. Damian has 13 years now... DC can add that this happened(in some way) during the last 3 years, no? Restoring *the existence* of these roles you don´t restore all the Steph/Cass comics events but is something..

They can mention something like that Steph and Cass were batgirls like 6 months(barbara was oracle during this time and then, she returned as batgirl) could work, is only change a little N52 Barbara past...


But I don´t trust in DC with this..  :Frown:   Cass is not one character with 15 years now? She need more age for this... I can only trust that DC will put this again if YJ adds Cass in the season 4 and both characters are enought succefuls for add this again..

----------


## millernumber1

> Hell, even now in Bombshells, Cass is finally in, but _not_ as one of the Batgirls.


The exclusion of Steph and Cass from the Batgirls group has been my biggest consistent complaint about the book for years. It's so unnecessary.




> I intend to look into the possibilities of restoring Cass' backstory elsewhere. For now, I'll agree that restoring that is important to restoring Steph's time as Batgirl: Cass was, after all, the one who gave Steph the push to get her to become Batgirl. 
> 
> As for her relationship with Tim: what needs to be restored? I'm not talking about shared history; a big part of the point of this exercise is to restore as much of that history as possible; and already we've agreed that at the very least, all of her history prior to becoming Robin can be restored without significant disruption of post-Flashpoint events. So don't look at the question of whether or not she could have been Robin in terms of the current status quo; look at it in terms of much of the pre-Flashpoint history having been restored. Recall that for much of that history, she was dating Tim; that dovetails surprisingly well with their portrayal in 'Tec, only with more buildup before they took their relationship to the next level.


I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.

I agree about Steph's relationship with Tim. We don't really have a good handle on what Tim's career is like, now - some version of the n52 happened (but obviously not all of it, or all in the same way), so we don't have a good handle on how Steph intertwined with that. As of now, though, I'm going to imagine that some version of Robin 1-100 happened.  :Smile: 




> I put recently one imagen of* Cass winning easily Steph(is funny)*...I love both characters.. *That can not bother me(it´s reality*, not something crazy like D..k.. winning Jason).. For bother me you should use characters that I don´t like or I hate, something really crazy, or writers that I don´t like..
> 
> They can mention something like that Steph and Cass were batgirls like 6 months(barbara was oracle during this time and then, she returned as batgirl) could work, is only change a little N52 Barbara past...
> 
> But I don´t trust in DC with this..   Cass is not one character with 15 years now? She need more age for this... I can only trust that DC will put this again if YJ adds Cass in the season 4 and both characters are enought succefuls for add this again..


To clarify - the reason I object to the Cass knocking Steph out scene was never because I think Steph can beat Cass in a fight. It's because the whole comic is incredibly disrespectful to Steph, which I don't think fits Cass's character or her care for Steph.

As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.

----------


## adrikito

> As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.


I think that I heard this here... Cass 15, Tim 16 and Steph 17(this now).... Maybe I am wrong, but only for 1 year, sure..

For help both with the batgirls story, both girls between 17-19 years would be better..

----------


## Assam

> I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.


It's honestly just depressing the amount of people I've encountered who just _assume_ that Babs was the first Batgirl with her own title. 




> To clarify - the reason I object to the Cass knocking Steph out scene was never because I think Steph can beat Cass in a fight. It's because the whole comic is incredibly disrespectful to Steph, which I don't think fits Cass's character or her care for Steph.


Adrikito is referring to the scenes from #28, not #27. And I know you don't like #27, but #28 is a strong candidate for the best team-up of the two. 




> As for how old Cass is - I thought she was 16, and Steph is 17. I don't know for sure how old Cass and Steph were in pre-Flashpoint canon - Steph was about 16-17 when she started being Spoiler (at least, I think she was - she was supposed to be about a year older than Tim), and about 19 when she became Batgirl. I've always thought Cass should be about a year around Steph's age - so between 18-20 when she was Black Bat. But because of the nature of her origin, I don't know if they ever actually hammered down her age.


Pre-FP, at the end, Cass was 19/20 and Steph was 19. Currently, I have no idea about Steph (Probably 16-17 though), and Tynion has described Cass on different occasions as 14, 15, 16 and 17.

----------


## Frontier

> I agree - Cass is essential to any discussion of the Batgirl character, and you should not discuss Babs or Steph without talking about the way she made it possible for Batgirl to be considered a viable solo title.


Just like Tim as Robin.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's honestly just depressing the amount of people I've encountered who just _assume_ that Babs was the first Batgirl with her own title. 
> 
> Pre-FP, at the end, Cass was 19/20 and Steph was 19. Currently, I have no idea about Steph (Probably 16-17 though), and Tynion has described Cass on different occasions as 14, 15, 16 and 17.


It is really depressing. Especially since you have all four boy Robins. I know I always bring it up, but if they can explain Jason and Damian, they can explain Steph and Cass.

Haha. The shifting ages. Cass is probably 15, until the end of Doomsday Clock, and then, like Damian in Rebirth, she'll jump forward a billion years all at once.




> Just like Tim as Robin.


Yep!

----------


## adrikito

The PURPLE Robin:

stephanie brown purple robin.jpg

http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589

----------


## millernumber1

> The PURPLE Robin:
> 
> stephanie brown purple robin.jpg
> 
> http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589


I love that redesign! Much as Dustin Nguyen's redesign is one of my favorite costumes for Steph, I wish they'd given her a domino mask. It lets her be free to emote, especially with her famous grin.

----------


## Assam

> The PURPLE Robin:
> 
> stephanie brown purple robin.jpg
> 
> http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589


Pretty slick design. I dig it.

----------


## adrikito

I put the purple Robin but... We can see the S of spoiler.. MY MISTAKE, is spoiler with Robin style costume.

----------


## Frontier

> The PURPLE Robin:
> 
> stephanie brown purple robin.jpg
> 
> http://www.imgrum.org/media/15908498...870_5944792589


Huh. Y'know, I've never thought of Steph with a domino mask, but it actually works surprisingly well  :Smile: .

I think it works better then the ninja mask because it gives her Spoiler eyes while still allowing for showing her face. If we can't get the actual Spoiler mask, then I'd prefer this to the ninja mask.

----------


## adrikito

Imagine that Spoiler is... A BOY(sorry, is not Stephen) in one alternative universe, this can be his appearance:

Even with the purple, he looks a serious character:

dc_remake_spoiler.jpg

I saw this in deviantart, similar to Steph past..

https://malfar.deviantart.com/art/DC...iler-713702030

----------


## millernumber1

> Imagine that Spoiler is... A BOY(sorry, is not Stephen) in one alternative universe, this can be his appearance:
> 
> Even with the purple, looks a serious character:
> 
> Attachment 57954
> 
> I saw this in deviantart, similar to Steph past..
> 
> https://malfar.deviantart.com/art/DC...iler-713702030


Huh. That's a very interesting idea. Thanks for the source! Makes me really wonder how tied to herself is Steph, and how much is transferrable.

----------


## adrikito

Making and Coloring one Steph image in youtube:




You can saw here, the complete image in color..

----------


## millernumber1

That's so cool! Really nice drawing, too.

----------


## adrikito

Stephanie Brown shirts:

https://www.*********.com/es/shop/stephanie+brown

Maybe I should put *TEAM STEPH* as a signature..  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie Brown shirts:
> 
> https://www.*********.com/es/shop/stephanie+brown
> 
> Maybe I should put *TEAM STEPH* as a signature..


Those are all great! Man. Maybe I need a new tshirt...  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

ANOTHER INTERESTING THING, *Jyger’s Favourite– 5 DC/Marvel Team-Ups I Would LOVE To See:* Seems that he wants crossovers of DC/Marvels and Steph is the 1st in his TOP 5..

https://jygersrant.wordpress.com/201...d-love-to-see/

*#1 – Spoiler and Spider-Woman*

Yeah, zero surprises with this one, huh? And yes, I HAVE seen the fan-art of Gwen with Batgirl, don’t worry, we’ll get to HER in a sec. For now, I just feel from a personality, fighting style, and equipment standpoint, these two are probably a tighter match. Hell, their costumes are even really similar, and they’re both blondes. The only major thing throwing off their combo is that only Gwen has superpowers, but as seen when she teamed up with other superheroes, that doesn’t do much, if anything, to hold Steph back.

*Unfortunatelly, I only remember gwen of Spiderman series/Films as a normal girl..*

----------


## millernumber1

Hmmms. I tried Spider-Gwen, but it didn't really do much for me. It seems a lot like steampunk - mostly awesome designs, kinda limp storytelling.

----------


## TheCape

> Hmmms. I tried Spider-Gwen, but it didn't really do much for me. It seems a lot like steampunk - mostly awesome designs, kinda limp storytelling.


Is a lot of style and cool artwork, but with nothing of substance. Wich is too bad because i actually enjoyed her first apperance, other than that....

----------


## millernumber1

> Is a lot of style and cool artwork, but with nothing of substance. Wich is too bad because i actually enjoyed her first apperance, other than that....


Yeah.

Unlike our girl, who has no less that FOUR great designs, and much substance.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Well, substance can be in the eye of the beholder  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, substance can be in the eye of the beholder .


True. But it's a Steph thread! I naturally think EVERYONE has less substance than she does.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> True. But it's a Steph thread! I naturally think EVERYONE has less substance than she does.


Of course... This is Steph appreciation, no one can overcome her here..

----------


## Assam

So what do you guys think Steph's _next_ arc will be? Or rather, what would you like it to be about? 

I know its not really relevant right now since she  probably won't be a primary focus of an arc again after FotB till 2019 (if we still HAVE a team by then) , but given how divisive and mixed this initial year+ arc has been, I think it's worth talking about.

----------


## adrikito

> So what do you guys think Steph's _next_ arc will be? Or rather, what would you like it to be about? 
> 
> I know its not really relevant right now since she  probably won't be a primary focus of an arc again after FotB till 2019, but given how divisive and mixed this initial year+ arc has been, I think it's worth talking about.


After the last Steph appearance, I think that something related with Cluemaster..

----------


## millernumber1

> So what do you guys think Steph's _next_ arc will be? Or rather, what would you like it to be about? 
> 
> I know its not really relevant right now since she  probably won't be a primary focus of an arc again after FotB till 2019 (if we still HAVE a team by then) , but given how divisive and mixed this initial year+ arc has been, I think it's worth talking about.


Steph's arc should be that she's still struggling with the doubts the Victim Syndicate planted in her mind. And I desperately hope that she finds the truth.

----------


## Assam

> Steph's arc should be that she's still struggling with the doubts the Victim Syndicate planted in her mind. And I desperately hope that she finds the truth.


I'm kind of expecting that to be happening as a sub-plot throughout arcs post-FotB. I just hope that Tynion doesn't write returned-Steph the way the Bensons have been.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm kind of expecting that to be happening as a sub-plot throughout arcs post-FotB. I just hope that Tynion doesn't write returned-Steph the way the Bensons have been.


I mean, we know that Victim Syndicate comes back in this arc, so I think it's actually likely that it will be a major subplot.

(Also, it's interesting that Steph in Birds of Prey has pushback - I've seen several fans mention it - but there's also a strong group of fans who don't like a Steph who isn't angry enough.)

----------


## adrikito

> Steph's arc should be that she's still struggling with the doubts the Victim Syndicate planted in her mind. And I desperately hope that she finds the truth.


Of course, I forget the Victim Syndicate..

----------


## millernumber1

> Of course, I forget the Victim Syndicate..


NEVER FORGET! They're so annoying. But so much better than that random group of thugs in Batman and Robin.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> NEVER FORGET! They're so annoying. But so much better than that random group of thugs in Batman and Robin.


I have never been interested in cluemaster, for some reason, in that moment I only saw in my mind the last Steph appearance..

Maybe is because I am trying to forget Steph sadness after Tim "death"...

*

THIS IS THE 2000th POST IN STEPH APPRECIATION...*   :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> I have never been interested in cluemaster, for some reason, in that moment I only saw in my mind the last Steph appearance..
> 
> Maybe is because I am trying to forget Steph sadness after Tim "death"...
> 
> *
> 
> THIS IS THE 2000th POST IN STEPH APPRECIATION...*


AWESOME! CELEBRATE THE STEPH LOVE!

Interesting. I actually like the idea of a less smart Riddler who is cranky because he's not as smart. Especially one who has Steph as a daughter who kicks his butt.  :Smile: 

I kinda like the sadness - I think it's very engaging as a character arc, and also has some really nice parallels (only flipped) from when Steph died and Tim was sad.

----------


## Assam

> I mean, we know that Victim Syndicate comes back in this arc, so I think it's actually likely that it will be a major subplot.


Yeah, but I'm not entirely sure she'll actually be on the team until the end of the arc...or as I theorized on the Cass thread, possibly not even on the team after this. So dealing with lingering feelings would come after. (I think we're thinking the same thing but just got confused) 




> (Also, it's interesting that Steph in Birds of Prey has pushback - I've seen several fans mention it - but there's also a strong group of fans who don't like a Steph who isn't angry enough.)


I like an angry Steph. But this Steph is just downright unpleasant.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, but I'm not entirely sure she'll actually be on the team until the end of the arc...or as I theorized on the Cass thread, possibly not even on the team after this. So dealing with lingering feelings would come after. (I think we're thinking the same thing but just got confused) 
> 
> I like an angry Steph. But this Steph is just downright unpleasant.


See, my Steph is BQM's Steph first, Dixon's second, so I like a Steph who's mad, but I don't think it's an intrinsic part of her character (I made a LONG post about it a while back on my tumblr). I think this Steph is still working through the trauma of Tim's death and her lingering distrust of Batman from the Eternal storyline.

I would like to think that Tynion knows she belongs on the team, but I am worried. I'm always worried about Steph.

----------


## adrikito

> AWESOME! CELEBRATE THE STEPH LOVE!
> 
> Interesting. I actually like the idea of a less smart Riddler who is cranky because he's not as smart. Especially one who has Steph as a daughter who kicks his butt. 
> 
> I kinda like the sadness - I think it's very engaging as a character arc, and also has some really nice parallels (only flipped) from when Steph died and Tim was sad.


Maybe is because I hate the Riddler, that someone similar, don´t like me..

My opinion about Steph never changed in the last months, she was brave for continue alone, I only prefer one happy Steph..

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe is because I hate the Riddler, that someone similar, don´t like me..
> 
> My opinion about Steph never changed in the last months(I understand the reason), she was brave for continue alone, I only prefer one happy Steph..


How interesting. I like Riddler more than Joker. He at least has a chance of not killing people.

I prefer a happy Steph, too - but I want Steph to have stories and grow as a hero, and growth comes with sadness and struggle, so I don't want her to be happy all the time. Just as her default state.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> How interesting. I like Riddler more than Joker. He at least has a chance of not killing people.
> 
> I prefer a happy Steph, too - but *I want Steph to have stories and grow as a hero, and growth comes with sadness and struggle, so I don't want her to be happy all the time.* Just as her default state.


In the real life... I DON´T LIKE THE CLOWNS.. Joker is special.. But riddler is irritating..

I understand that for grow as hero and character she need this... For that reason, I support her in the good and bad moments..

I never liked Riddler(his appearance dissapointed me many times, I always compared him with minor villains).. but think that I hate him since the N52 Batman Annual, with Bruce without memory... 

5_29.jpg

Of these 3, he is the last, that you can feel sorry for his situation... because is a terrorist that wanted money putting the people in danger... and now.. is here complaining about batman? Change your life and you will never see batman again..

----------


## millernumber1

> In the real life... I DON´T LIKE THE CLOWNS.. Joker is special..
> 
> I understand that for grow as hero and character she need this... For that reason, I support her in the good and bad moments..


The True Steph Spirit - there's room in our line of fandom for hope, too!

----------


## adrikito

I'm the only who wants the preview of detective comics 969 for see Steph? She is the only who doesn´t know about Tim returns..

Today I saw the AC 992 preview, but nothing of detective comics..  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm the only who wants the preview of detective comics 969 for see Steph? She is the only who doesn´t know about Tim returns..
> 
> Today I saw the AC 992 preview, but nothing of detective comics..


Everyone wants the preview!  :Smile:

----------


## AlvinDraper

> I'm the only who wants the preview of detective comics 969 for see Steph? She is the only who doesn´t know about Tim returns..
> 
> Today I saw the AC 992 preview, but nothing of detective comics..


I'm dying here to see the preview

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko4_400.jpg
Transition

----------


## adrikito

> tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko4_400.jpg
> transition


good image, thank you..

----------


## millernumber1

> tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko4_400.jpg
> Transition


I love it. It's part of a great series I've reblogged on my tumblr before, but it's so high quality in rendering, and really intelligent in concept, that it stands out from the rest.

Never forget: Steph is Part of the Legend (of being Robin), and she's one of three amazing Batgirls.

----------


## Frontier

> tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko4_400.jpg
> Transition


Beautiful  :Big Grin: .

Although a part of me wishes they had fit in her Spoiler costume in to this, but I guess transitioning between Robin to Batgirl would be more seamless (especially with the hair). 

Also, while I'm not 100% on Steph's Robin tenure as others are, I do think it's kind of fitting that the first in-canon female Robin ended up becoming Batgirl. It wasn't really a completely natural transition, granted, but still.

----------


## millernumber1

> Beautiful .
> 
> Although a part of me wishes they had fit in her Spoiler costume in to this, but I guess transitioning between Robin to Batgirl would be more seamless (especially with the hair). 
> 
> Also, while I'm not 100% on Steph's Robin tenure as others are, I do think it's kind of fitting that the first in-canon female Robin ended up becoming Batgirl. It wasn't really a completely natural transition, granted, but still.


It was an unnatural transition, but I think it speaks to the tenacity of Steph and her fans.

----------


## Assam

> It was an unnatural transition, *but I think it speaks to the tenacity of Steph and her fans.*


I will forever maintain that no characters have as passionate and, yes, downright crazy fanbases ( in a good way) as Cass and Steph..._maybe_ Hal Jordan. You can't really top HEAT in terms of fan response.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dataweaver

> It was an unnatural transition, but I think it speaks to the tenacity of Steph and her fans.


Indeed. This thread was misnamed; it really should have been “the Unsinkable Stephanie Brown”.

----------


## millernumber1

> I will forever maintain that no characters have as passionate and, yes, downright crazy fanbases ( in a good way) as Cass and Steph..._maybe_ Hal Jordan. You can't really top HEAT in terms of fan response.


Well, Steph and Cass both have wikias! There is a Green Lantern wikia, but not just for Hal. To be fair, Hal does have a movie. But eh. Nobody liked it.  :Smile: 




> Indeed. This thread was misnamed; it really should have been “the Unsinkable Stephanie Brown”.


Oooh, good one! Here we go!

----------


## Assam

> Indeed. This thread was misnamed; it really should have been “the Unsinkable Stephanie Brown”.


Insert the "I understood that reference" meme here.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Dear lord I watched that movie on VHS when I was 8 or something. 




> Well, Steph and Cass both have wikias! There is a Green Lantern wikia, but not just for Hal. To be fair, Hal does have a movie. But eh. Nobody liked it.


I'd say their biggest claim to fame from a fandom POV is managing to come back from attempts at erasure twice each despite not even having any media appearances up until that point. 

As for Hal, are you familiar with just how far HEAT went?

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd say their biggest claim to fame from a fandom POV is managing to come back from attempts at erasure twice each despite not even having any media appearances up until that point. 
> 
> As for Hal, are you familiar with just how far HEAT went?


I need the opposite gif now - the one from Bones where Emily Deschanel says "I don't know what that means."  :Smile:   :Frown:

----------


## Dataweaver

> I will forever maintain that no characters have as passionate and, yes, downright crazy fanbases ( in a good way) as Cass and Steph..._maybe_ Hal Jordan. You can't really top HEAT in terms of fan response.


 As impressive as those two fanbases are, there's one that trumps both, easily; it's just not a DC character. I have never seen a fanbase as awesome as the one for May “Mayday” Parker, the One True Spider-Girl. They saved her title more times than I can count, extending what was originally going to be a twelve-issue run to something that lasted roughly a decade. Heck, even when her title was canceled (at #100), they managed to get a replacement title not long after.

----------


## millernumber1

> As impressive as those two fanbases are, there's one that trumps both, easily; it's just not a DC character. I have never seen a fanbase as awesome as the one for May “Mayday” Parker, the One True Spider-Girl. They saved her title more times than I can count, extending what was originally going to be a twelve-issue run to something that lasted roughly a decade. Heck, even when her title was canceled (at #100), they managed to get a replacement title not long after.


True. What is the Mayday fanbase up to these days? I read Renew Your Vows, and I did read some Spider-Girl stuff back in the day, but was never a dedicated fan of the title.

----------


## Assam

> I need the opposite gif now - the one from Bones where Emily Deschanel says "I don't know what that means."


HEAT AKA "Hal's Emerald Attack Team", later renamed "Hal's Emerald Action Team" so as to sound less violent, was a massive group of united fans (In the 90's mind you) with the purpose of getting DC to undo Emerald Twilight (The story where Hal became Parallax), make it so Hal was absolved of any of the actions he committed and have him reinstated as Green Lantern. 

Now me personally? I've never found Hal more interesting than during this time as well as when he was the Spectre. 

These guys though? 

Some of the more temperamental members sent death threats to DC writers and editors, while the group as a whole went so far as to put out ads to sign their petition in Wizard Magazine. And you can find plenty more stories with a google search.

----------


## millernumber1

> HEAT AKA "Hal's Emerald Attack Team", later renamed "Hal's Emerald Action Team" so as to sound less violent, was a massive group of united fans (In the 90's mind you) with the purpose of getting DC to undo Emerald Twilight (The story where Hal became Parallax), make it so Hal was absolved of any of the actions he committed and have him reinstated as Green Lantern. 
> 
> Now me personally? I've never found Hal more interesting than during this time as well as when he was the Spectre. 
> 
> These guys though? 
> 
> Some of the more temperamental members sent death threats to DC writers and editors, while the group as a whole went so far as to put out ads to sign their petition in Wizard Magazine. And you can find plenty more stories with a google search.


Are these the peeps who hated Kyle? I may joke about not liking Superman stories (even though I quite like him as a supporting character), but I REALLY don't read Green Lantern stories. Just not ever been interested. But some of the podcasts I listen to have guests who are big Green Lantern fans, and they talk about how miserable it was in the 90s for anyone who wasn't completely, 100% a Hal fan.

----------


## Assam

> True. What is the Mayday fanbase up to these days? I read Renew Your Vows, and I did read some Spider-Girl stuff back in the day, but was never a dedicated fan of the title.





> As impressive as those two fanbases are, there's one that trumps both, easily; it's just not a DC character. I have never seen a fanbase as awesome as the one for May “Mayday” Parker, the One True Spider-Girl. They saved her title more times than I can count, extending what was originally going to be a twelve-issue run to something that lasted roughly a decade. Heck, even when her title was canceled (at #100), they managed to get a replacement title not long after.


I _really_ need to read Spider-Girl. I have heard nothing but good things about her book, and several other die-hard Cass fans I know count her among their favorite Marvel heroes.

----------


## Assam

> Are these the peeps who hated Kyle? I may joke about not liking Superman stories (even though I quite like him as a supporting character), but I REALLY don't read Green Lantern stories. Just not ever been interested.


It was mixed. The group as a whole had a stance of wanting Hal and the Corps to coexist with Kyle, but there were still tons of members who hated Kyle, absolutely _hated_ him. 




> and they talk about how miserable it was in the 90s for anyone who wasn't completely, 100% a Hal fan.


You mean Kyle? 

And like I said, I couldn't disagree more. I really like Kyle's book despite not being a massive fan of his (The highlights of his book for me were his team-ups with Wally West and Connor Hawke), John and Guy were still around and like I said, I thought Hal's character arc was really, _really_ good; a story of how the greatest of heroes can fall and yet still redeem themselves.

----------


## TheCape

> True. What is the Mayday fanbase up to these days? I read Renew Your Vows, and I did read some Spider-Girl stuff back in the day, but was never a dedicated fan of the title.


Speaking for myself, shaking my fist in rigtheous anger everytime that i heard the word Spider-Verse  :Stick Out Tongue: . Also, unrelated, she is Peter's heir not Miles  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

OF deviantart:

STEPHANIE BROWN BATGIRL1.jpg

https://kmkibble75.deviantart.com/ar...ving-715775751

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## millernumber1

> Speaking for myself, shaking my fist in rigtheous anger everytime that i heard the word Spider-Verse . Also, unrelated, she is Peter's heir not Miles


Haha. Yeah, I actually liked JMS's run on Spidey until Civil War (and even parts of Back in Black, but that's so tied up with OMD it's a bit hard to really love), but Morlun is definitely one of the weaker ideas, and to use him to murder off a bunch of Spidey characters was just sick. Of course, I've also sworn undying hatred agains Grim Hunt for the sick murder of Mattie (and Slott did nothing to redeem himself with Clone Conspiracy).




> It was mixed. The group as a whole had a stance of wanting Hal and the Corps to coexist with Kyle, but there were still tons of members who hated Kyle, absolutely _hated_ him. 
> 
> You mean Kyle? 
> 
> And like I said, I couldn't disagree more. I really like Kyle's book despite not being a massive fan of his (The highlights of his book for me were his team-ups with Wally West and Connor Hawke), John and Guy were still around and like I said, I thought Hal's character arc was really, _really_ good; a story of how the greatest of heroes can fall and yet still redeem themselves.


The fans I was listening to really liked Kyle, but were treated very badly by the Hal fans.




> OF deviantart:
> 
> STEPHANIE BROWN BATGIRL1.jpg
> 
> https://kmkibble75.deviantart.com/ar...ving-715775751


Aw, nice!

----------


## TheCape

> Haha. Yeah, I actually liked JMS's run on Spidey until Civil War (and even parts of Back in Black, but that's so tied up with OMD it's a bit hard to really love), but Morlun is definitely one of the weaker ideas, and to use him to murder off a bunch of Spidey characters was just sick. Of course, I've also sworn undying hatred agains Grim Hunt for the sick murder of Mattie (and Slott did nothing to redeem himself with Clone Conspiracy).


I had the same opinion than you, i personally enjoy Back in Black, but at the same time, is a direction than the characther should have never got into and feel like the editors were just using as a mean to justify OMD. Morlun worked fine as a obstacle for Peter and let to some great moments with the characther than captured his humanity (like him calling Aunt May and MJ during the fight, honestly i want to see that sort of thing with Tim too, considering that he belongs to the same archetype). My dislike for Grim Hunt is mostly for taking away the impact of Kraven Last Hunt and frankly Kraven was better death, he never was an interesting villain, i disliked Mattie's death and how nobody talked about it (she was supposed to JJ adopted daughter, how can you ignore that?), but i was never attached to her, so i less piss over that one.

----------


## millernumber1

> I had the same opinion than you, i personally enjoy Back in Black, but at the same time, is a direction than the characther should have never got into and feel like the editors were just using as a mean to justify OMD. Morlun worked fine as a obstacle for Peter and let to some great moments with the characther than captured his humanity (like him calling Aunt May and MJ during the fight, honestly i want to see that sort of thing with Tim too, considering that he belongs to the same archetype). My dislike for Grim Hunt is mostly for taking away the impact of Kraven Last Hunt and frankly Kraven was better death, he never was an interesting villain, i disliked Mattie's death and how nobody talked about it (she was supposed to JJ adopted daughter, how can you ignore that?), but i was never attached to her, so i less piss over that one.


Everything starting with Civil War was setting up OMD. It's really poisoning to a lot of the strong work JMS did. (Similar to how Steph's run as Robin was just a setup for killing her, which poisons her time in the tights for a lot of fans.)

Tim shares a ton of character DNA with Spidey, as Chuck Dixon openly used Spidey's early years as a template for Tim's solo series. I think Tynion definitely gets that.

I have no connection with Kraven, so that didn't bother me. The way Mattie's death was drawn and handled was just sick - and I was attached to her, because of her appearance in Jessica Jones. Clone Conspiracy (perhaps predictably) did deal with Jonah's response to her death (finally), but did so in probably the worst way possible. Ugh.

All this talk of Tim and Spidey makes me wonder if Steph has a bit of MJ in her. There's a similar sense of brash joy and wit - the "You've got a bad case of the Stephs" has echoes of "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot."

----------


## TheCape

@millernumber1
Certanly, seing Peter beating Fisk was kind of cathartic for me and there some other good moments there, but in general it fall downs after Civil War (well The Other isn't anything to writte home about it).

As for Tim and Peter,yeah they share a lot, Tim was always an interesting variation of the classic Spider-Man that was created to be the "Anti Robin", is the reason of why he is my favorite Robin and is sad that many fans and writters had forgot that (also i know that you aren't a big fan of Nicieza, but check his Spider-Man: The Final Adventure mini, is pure gold for any MJ and Peter shippers).

Superficially, Steph and MJ share some traits and their relationship with Tim and Peter changed both in more ways that some people realized and is kind of funny that neither of the 2 were originally thought to be official couples with boths characthers, but popularity and the love and interest of the writters for both let then to were they are now. Even if Tim/Steph is not as popular.

----------


## millernumber1

> @millernumber1
> Certanly, seing Peter beating Fisk was kind of cathartic for me and there some other good moments there, but in general it fall downs after Civil War (well The Other isn't anything to writte home about it).
> 
> As for Tim and Peter,yeah they share a lot, Tim was always an interesting variation of the classic Spider-Man that was created to be the "Anti Robin", is the reason of why he is my favorite Robin and is sad that many fans and writters had forgot that (also i know that you aren't a big fan of Nicieza, but check his Spider-Man: The Final Adventure mini, is pure gold for any MJ and Peter shippers).
> 
> Superficially, Steph and MJ share some traits and their relationship with Tim and Peter changed both in more ways that some people realized and is kind of funny that neither of the 2 were originally thought to be official couples with boths characthers, but popularity and the love and interest of the writters for both let then to were they are now. Even if Tim/Steph is not as popular.


Peter throwing the Jeep as the sniper was a great moment as well.

Huh - thanks for the rec! I'll have to check it out.

I think Tim/Steph is pretty popular, but a lot of the fans of the relationship aren't as vocal on message boards or tumblr etc.  There is a weird parallel between Tim/Steph/Ari and Peter/MJ/Gwen.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> I think Tim/Steph is pretty popular, but a lot of the fans of the relationship aren't as vocal on message boards or tumblr etc. There is a weird parallel between Tim/Steph/Ari and Peter/MJ/Gwen.


Probably. To a certain extent the comparison is also fair, with the more conservative love interest and the sort free spirited girl, but Ariana was a lot more consisten than Gwen ever was. Also, is kind of funny how Tim cheated emotionally all his love interest with Steph, i know that i shouldn't be a good thing but it sort of amussed me.

----------


## millernumber1

> Probably. To a certain extent the comparison is also fair, with the more conservative love interest and the sort free spirited girl, but Ariana was a lot more consisten than Gwen ever was. Also, is kind of funny how Tim cheated emotionally all his love interest with Steph, i know that i shouldn't be a good thing but it sort of amussed me.


It's not good - but I think it was very understandable and relateable. Much as I'm a die-hard Tim/Steph shipper, I am sad that we never saw Arianna again. Though I'm also glad that no one felt the need to kill her off like Gwen. Ugh. That would be the worst.

----------


## TheCape

> It's not good - but I think it was very understandable and relateable. Much as I'm a die-hard Tim/Steph shipper, I am sad that we never saw Arianna again. Though I'm also glad that no one felt the need to kill her off like Gwen. Ugh. That would be the worst.


Too true, it would have been intereting to see her again, i think that Dixon actually has plans for that. I think that killing Gwen back in the day was fair game back in the day and the decission has brougth good and bad stories for the characther, but i started to rethink if it was a good or a bad thing after the idealization that some people had brougth in recent years with the characther and i'm kind of curious how Weisman would have handled that in the Spec cartoon

----------


## millernumber1

> Too true, it would have been intereting to see her again, i think that Dixon actually has plans for that. I think that killing Gwen back in the day was fair game back in the day and the decission has brougth good and bad stories for the characther, but i started to rethink if it was a good or a bad thing after the idealization that some people had brougth in recent years with the characther and i'm kind of curious how Weisman would have handled that in the Spec cartoon


Yeah. The "Saint Gwen" thing is really annoying to all of us Peter/MJ shippers. Not that Gwen fans have actually had any love from editorial for their original flavor character. But they do have sixty zillion versions of Gwen flying around in the universe. (My favorites are still the Ultimate Gwen and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane Gwen.)

I would be really interested to see Ari and Steph interact. Not that Tynion has shown any indication of that - it'd be hard, not really knowing what Tim's actual status and civilian life is like. But it might be cool if he brought back Ari along with the General and Anarky.

----------


## adrikito

Steph is in the preview... 

For one moment I thought I saw post-crisis stephanie brown, she looks very tall in my opinion.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph is in the preview... 
> 
> For one moment I thought I saw post-crisis stephanie brown, she looks very tall in my opinion.


Good! Steph should be taller than Tim "I'm super short" Drake.  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Good! Steph should be taller than Tim "I'm super short" Drake.


Steph was never taller than Tim. Moreover, he is still in his formative years. XDXD

----------


## adrikito

> Good! Steph should be taller than Tim "I'm super short" Drake.


In that case... She will be Taller than the 2 last generations of Robin..

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph was never taller than Tim. Moreover, he is still in his formative years. XDXD


Hedcanon.  :Wink: 

http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Profile
http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Tim_Drake

Also, Steph is 5'5" (according to most recent reference materials), and Tim is in some versions also that tall. He's also been 5'6", and many other heights. The 2016 DC Comics Encyclopdia does say that Batman Beyond Tim Drake is 6 feet tall, which matches Bat-Tim from A Lonely Place of Living, so your "still growing" point is fair.

Still maintain that Steph should be taller. Just because it's funny.  :Wink:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Hedcanon. 
> 
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Profile
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Tim_Drake
> 
> Also, Steph is 5'5" (according to most recent reference materials), and Tim is in some versions also that tall. He's also been 5'6", and many other heights. The 2016 DC Comics Encyclopdia does say that Batman Beyond Tim Drake is 6 feet tall, which matches Bat-Tim from A Lonely Place of Living, so your "still growing" point is fair.
> 
> Still maintain that Steph should be taller. Just because it's funny.


It would seem weird. I just always find it odd when a girl is taller than her boyfriend. Maybe I'm old-fashioned.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> It would seem weird. I just always find it odd when a girl is taller than her boyfriend. Maybe I'm old-fashioned.


It is definitely unusual. But not wrong, I think.

But every single artist I've seen has agreed with you - I've never seen art in the comics showing Steph as taller than Tim. Usually they show her as being an inch or two shorter.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> It is definitely unusual. But not wrong, I think.
> 
> But every single artist I've seen has agreed with you - I've never seen art in the comics showing Steph as taller than Tim. Usually they show her as being an inch or two shorter.


At least they have normal heights.  :Big Grin:  Poor Cassandra..... she totally looks like a midget.

----------


## millernumber1

> At least they have normal heights.  Poor Cassandra..... she totally looks like a midget.


Very true. That really confuses me, since Steph and Cass were almost always portrayed as the same height in pre-Flashpoint canon. But now she's like...under 5 feet or something.

----------


## KrustyKid

> At least they have normal heights.  Poor Cassandra..... she totally looks like a midget.


Yah, Cass's downgrade in height is downright silly to me

----------


## adrikito

> Hedcanon. 
> 
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Profile
> http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Tim_Drake
> 
> Also, Steph is 5'5" (according to most recent reference materials), and Tim is in some versions also that tall. He's also been 5'6", and many other heights. The 2016 DC Comics Encyclopdia does say that Batman Beyond Tim Drake is 6 feet tall, which matches Bat-Tim from A Lonely Place of Living, so your "still growing" point is fair.
> 
> Still maintain that Steph should be taller. Just because it's funny.


Nothing against that... He is not Jason or Dick, they are in similar age..




> It would seem weird. I just always find it odd when a girl is taller than her boyfriend. Maybe I'm old-fashioned.


We think the same.. Except she is only a few cm more taller..

----------


## millernumber1

> Nothing agains that... He is not Jason or Dick, they are in similar age..


It's funny, though - I was chatting with one of my fellow reviewers on twitter, and she said that her headcanon is that Tim is actually older than Jason. She knows it's not actually what DC is publishing, but it's all based on an attempt to figure out everyone's ages according to how long Dick was Robin, etc.

What's really silly is the way artists use height as age shorthand. I know it's effective, but it's kinda silly to have the Robins stairstep just to show that they are in age order. I shudder to think what the Batgirls are supposed to look like if their heights are their ages.

----------


## adrikito

> At least they have normal heights.  Poor Cassandra..... she totally looks like a midget.


... Maybe Cass is now like 2 years younger than Steph.. and Cass with Steph age will be in a similar height... Tim is not 1 year younger than Steph?

----------


## millernumber1

> ... Maybe Cass is now like 2 years younger than Steph.. and Cass with Steph age will be in a similar height... Tim is not 1 year younger than Steph?


My personal understanding of the Tiny Trio's ages are:

Steph is 17 (as stated in Batman Eternal)

Tim is 16 (as stated in Batman and Robin Eternal)

Cass is...somewhere around there (as stated vaguely in Batman and Robin Eternal). I personally wish she were still about Steph's age or a little older, but I currently think she's about 16, the same age as Tim, because she was affected by Mother's gas attack, which was age restricted, while Steph didn't seem to be, though that could be because of Steph's gas mask - which is annoyingly inconsistent in how it's drawn and what it can do. (Also, no one seemed to explain how Damian wasn't affected by that, but eh. Whatevs.)

----------


## Assam

> It would seem weird. I just always find it odd when a girl is taller than her boyfriend. Maybe I'm old-fashioned.


Well hopefully that stops seeming weird to you sooner rather than later.  :Wink: 

Where I live, it isn't unusual at all to see. Mind you, where I live, cisgender people are the minority. 




> Yah, Cass's downgrade in height is downright silly to me


It's quite ridiculous. And yet the most recent DC Encyclopedia still has her listed as 5'5". 

If I had faith in Tynion on this end, I'd say he _wasn't_ just doing this to have the short master martial artist trope/cilche, and that he actually had something up his sleeve a la Fullmetal Alchemist; have her get taller as she accepts herself more as a person and less as a weapon, that kind of thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's quite ridiculous. And yet the most recent DC Encyclopedia still has her listed as 5'5". 
> 
> If I had faith in Tynion on this end, I'd say he _wasn't_ just doing this to have the short master martial artist trope/cilche, and that he actually had something up his sleeve a la Fullmetal Alchemist; have her get taller as she accepts herself more as a person and less as a weapon, that kind of thing.


I really don't know how much control Tynion has over heights and stuff. He's very enthusiastic about how much control his artists have - so if I had to guess, I'd say that Barrows was like, "CASS IS TINY NOW," and Tynion was like, "Um, okay," and then everyone who followed had to go with Barrows's template.

Things that must have happened...

(Also, Barrows also said, "THIS MASK IS STUPID FOR STEPH, SHE'S LEAVING IT OFF IN THIS SCENE." A lot.  :Wink:  )

----------


## Assam

> while Steph didn't seem to be, though that could be because of Steph's gas mask - which is annoyingly inconsistent in how it's drawn and what it can do. (Also, no one seemed to explain how Damian wasn't affected by that, but eh. Whatevs.)


It must be really hard to defend BoP and BRE sometimes.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But nah, seriously, how did bloody knockout gas work on Cass and Steph (And several others) in BOP?

----------


## millernumber1

> It must be really hard to defend BoP and BRE sometimes. 
> 
> But nah, seriously, how did bloody knockout gas work on Cass and Steph (And several others) in BOP?


No, I'm really with you on this one, and I'm actually liking the storyline pretty well so far. Like...they should have told Roge Antonio, "WE'RE GOING WITH BARROWS HERE - STEPH TOOK OFF HER MASK FOR REASONS."

(I really like this random all caps script for my comic creator's fake conversations for some reason.)

It's not hard at all! For Birds of Prey, I just defend the awesome muscles Claire Roe drew, and the fact that they actually do continuity with pre-flashpoint and love to include lots of characters, and for Batman and Robin Eternal, I just defend all the stuff that Ed Brisson didn't write. Haha. That's unfair. There are so many specific issues and moments I love about BRE, which I think are unfairly undervalued. Does it have serious problems and a really dumb ending with Mother turning into a ninja for no reason? Absolutely. But #13, and Cass in general, and Steph sassing Scarecrow, and Tim saving the day at Spyral, and Damian telling the Robins about his father's vision for Robin - those and so many more are gold.

----------


## Aahz

> It's funny, though - I was chatting with one of my fellow reviewers on twitter, and she said that her headcanon is that Tim is actually older than Jason. She knows it's not actually what DC is publishing, but it's all based on an attempt to figure out everyone's ages according to how long Dick was Robin, etc.


You can really came to this conclusion based on the original comics. Jason was still shown to be 12 and in the 7th grade post crisis. Tim appeared in universe only a few month after Jason died and was already 13 at that point. If you take their birthdays into account (Tim July 19th, Jason August 26th ) you end up with Tim being roughly a month older than Jason.

When it comes to Stephs age, that was never really fix pre flashpoint it kind of chaged between her being Tim's age and up to 2 years older.

The Hights in the DC Encyclopedia are anyway a little bit of, according to them Kate, Barbara and Helena are all an inch taller than Dick, and Barbara is also a few inches taller than her father.

----------


## millernumber1

> You can really came to this conclusion based on the original comics. Jason was still shown to be 12 and in the 7th grade post crisis. Tim appeared in universe only a few month after Jason died and was already 13 at that point. If you take their birthdays into account (Tim July 19th, Jason August 26th ) you end up with Tim being roughly a month older than Jason.
> 
> When it comes to Stephs age, that was never really fix pre flashpoint it kind of chaged between her being Tim's age and up to 2 years older.
> 
> The Hights in the DC Encyclopedia are anyway a little bit of, according to them Kate, Barbara and Helena are all an inch taller than Dick, and Barbara is also a few inches taller than her father.


She was arguing that Tim was one or two years older, though.

I personally really rebel against the idea that Jason was murdered by the Joker at 12. That just horrifies me.

Steph was almost always written as about a year older than Tim, I think. In Red Robin and Batgirl, Steph was supposed to be 19, and Tim 17, but I think that's easily explained by "Tim hasn't had his birthday yet" or something like that.

Oh, man, are you kidding me about Babs being taller than Jim? That's NEVER been portrayed, as far as I can tell.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> (Also, Barrows also said, "THIS MASK IS STUPID FOR STEPH, SHE'S LEAVING IT OFF IN THIS SCENE." A lot.  )


are you talking about birds of prey? I heard that she was without her mask in many scenes, with people..  :Confused:   :Confused:

----------


## millernumber1

> are you talking about birds of prey? I heard that she was without her mask in many scenes, with people..


Yes, in the current Manslaughter arc. But the problem is that in the scene where all the team gets knocked out by the gas, Steph is actually WEARING the mask, even though she's taken it off before.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

SPEAKING OF AGES... IN YJ season 2 Steph age was 12 years and Tim 14 years...

In that serie Tim will be older than Steph.... 1 year minimum, because they can say that Steph age was almost 13 years..

----------


## millernumber1

> SPEAKING OF AGES... IN YJ season 2 Steph age was 12 years and Tim 14 years...
> 
> In that serie Tim will be older than Steph.... 1 year minimum, because they can say that Steph age was almost 13 years..


Hmm. I hope so. Of course, I'm hoping that Tim won't get caught in a triangle, but we shall see!

----------


## Aahz

> She was arguing that Tim was one or two years older, though.


The "Essential Batman Encyclopedia" from  2008 actually claims that Jason was only 9 when he stole the tires of the Batmobil, based on that he would really be that much younger than Tim.




> I personally really rebel against the idea that Jason was murdered by the Joker at 12. That just horrifies me.


At least post crisis it was never said in the comics how old he was when he died. in "The Batman Files" it is said that he was 15 (and his Birthday would make that even close to 16), but that doesn't really work with the timeline, since him being 12 when he was Robin is established in canon.
In my opinion (based on a lot of research about the ages of the Batfamily) the most likely scenario is that he stole the tires roughly a moth before the became 12 and was killed at the 13 4/3.

Post flashpoint they established that he was 16 when he stole the tires and 17 when he was killed, but I really hope that rebirth will change that back.




> Oh, man, are you kidding me about Babs being taller than Jim? That's NEVER been portrayed, as far as I can tell.


 DC Encyclopedia still has her lists iirc Jim at 5'9" and Barbara at 5'11".

----------


## adrikito

> Hmm. I hope so. Of course, I'm hoping that Tim won't get caught in a triangle, but we shall see!


Some people thinks that but.... I doubt that the winner girl in this battle is not Steph.. 

Tim changed Wondergirl for Steph in comics..  YJ is using Tim again, after put her in the 2nd season I doubt that they don´t know about Steph&Tim relationship..

BUT I WANT STEPH IN YJ FOR MORE THINGS, NOT ONLY FOR TIM..

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Well hopefully that stops seeming weird to you sooner rather than later. 
> 
> Where I live, it isn't unusual at all to see. Mind you, where I live, cisgender people are the minority.


I don't know.  :Big Grin:  It's just the norm in my country. And everybody seems straight here on the surface. There are some  LGBTQI communities, but they live very hidden. The public isn't acceptable with them. It's not like anyone really wants to hurt them or anything, just the people look at them strange for some reason. Actually I never understood the suspiciousness, but I'm in the minority here with this thinking.

----------


## Frontier

Don't those official heights have Dinah as being pretty short? Like shorter then Babs? Even though that's never reflected in the art  :Stick Out Tongue: ?



> True. *What is the Mayday fanbase up to these days?* I read Renew Your Vows, and I did read some Spider-Girl stuff back in the day, but was never a dedicated fan of the title.


Marvel hasn't given us much to talk about, at least positively, after _Spider-Verse_. 

We're either bringing up how badly she was used in that story or how underused she was compared to Spider-Gwen in _Web Warriors_. 



> All this talk of Tim and Spidey makes me wonder if Steph has a bit of MJ in her. There's a similar sense of brash joy and wit - the "You've got a bad case of the Stephs" has echoes of "Face it Tiger, you just hit the jackpot."


I've never thought of it before, but now I can kind of see it. 

They also both had terrible dads that impacted their upbringing and how they express themselves to others. 

In particular I think Steph and Ultimate MJ have a lot in common, even though the latter was pretty much always a civilian while Steph is a vigilante. Especially since Ultimate MJ was never the outwardly bombshell, party girl, and sexual person 616 Mary Jane was, which makes her more in-line with Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> The "Essential Batman Encyclopedia" from  2008 actually claims that Jason was only 9 when he stole the tires of the Batmobil, based on that he would really be that much younger than Tim.
> 
> At least post crisis it was never said in the comics how old he was when he died. in "The Batman Files" it is said that he was 15 (and his Birthday would make that even close to 16), but that doesn't really work with the timeline, since him being 12 when he was Robin is established in canon.
> In my opinion (based on a lot of research about the ages of the Batfamily) the most likely scenario is that he stole the tires roughly a moth before the became 12 and was killed at the 13 4/3.
> 
> Post flashpoint they established that he was 16 when he stole the tires and 17 when he was killed, but I really hope that rebirth will change that back.
> 
>  DC Encyclopedia still has her lists iirc Jim at 5'9" and Barbara at 5'11".


I REJECT IT! (Of course, I also reject that Dick was 10 when he started being Robin. But what can I say. Damian only works at that age because he was so bizarre a concept.) I adore the idea of Robin, but I really dislike it if it turns them into child soldiers. Teen soldiers, more okay, but 10-13? Not really okay with it. (Also implausible, but hey, comics.) I really approve of making him 17 when he died. Still really tragic, but not 12 or 13.




> Some people thinks that but.... I doubt that the winner girl in this battle is not Steph.. Tim changed Wondergirl for Steph in comics..


Haha. Well, I like to think so too, but I'd rather there just not be a triangle. I just don't like those kinds of stories.




> Don't those official heights have Dinah as being pretty short? Like shorter then Babs? Even though that's never reflected in the art ?
> 
> Marvel hasn't given us much to talk about, at least positively, after _Spider-Verse_. 
> 
> We're either bringing up how badly she was used in that story or how underused she was compared to Spider-Gwen in _Web Warriors_. 
> 
> I've never thought of it before, but now I can kind of see it. 
> 
> They also both had terrible dads that impacted their upbringing and how they express themselves to others. 
> ...


Yup. Dinah is theoretically super short, and Helena is super tall. I wrote a fic which referenced it (from Steph's perspective, of course.  :Wink:  )

There was that storyline that was spread out in some tie-in, wasn't there?

Your analysis of Ultimat vs 616 MJ feels spot on to me. But I disagree that Steph is more like Ultimate MJ. Steph is a very brash, sparky person. And a teen mom.

----------


## Aahz

> I REJECT IT! (Of course, I also reject that Dick was 10 when he started being Robin. But what can I say. Damian only works at that age because he was so bizarre a concept.) I adore the idea of Robin, but I really dislike it if it turns them into child soldiers. Teen soldiers, more okay, but 10-13? Not really okay with it. (Also implausible, but hey, comics.) I really approve of making him 17 when he died. Still really tragic, but not 12 or 13.


I think it takes lot of impact out of the story If you age Jason up that drastically as they did in the new 52.





> Yup. Dinah is theoretically super short, and Helena is super tall. I wrote a fic which referenced it (from Steph's perspective, of course.  )


The "official" heights are anyway often a little bit strange. But I have to admit that I would like to see Jason drawn accordind to his official stats (6'0'' and 225lbs) instead of as having the same height and build as Dick.


Btw. in the Arkham Verse you might iirc also end up with Jason being younger than Tim if you really try to do the math, and while I like the Young Justice series I'm not fan of how they changed the ages of certain characters.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it takes lot of impact out of the story If you age Jason up that drastically as they did in the new 52.
> 
> The "official" heights are anyway often a little bit strange. But I have to admit that I would like to see Jason drawn accordind to his official stats (6'0'' and 225lbs) instead of as having the same height and build as Dick.


Yes. It takes away a lot of the impact. But I think the impact that it takes away is "Batman uses child soldiers." I'm okay with taking away that impact.

Fanon LOVES huge Jason. I personally don't really care that much, as long as the art is appealing and the writing is good. Though this does make me wonder: what the heck is editorial doing if it's not handing out actual size charts and enforcing a uniform depiction of its characters?

Oh, I remember. Editors are too busy making sure that Steph and Cass never get solos.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> Oh, I remember. Editors are too busy making sure that Steph and Cass never get solos.


Despite this.. I am proud of both girls.. Something that I miss with Barbara..

Even if I want to see her happy again. I like the current situation of Steph(post-Tim "death").. This is realistic.. Interesting... 

I never expected to see her talking with Anarky(despite I see both in tomorrow world..) in the preview about Anarky team, I imaginated something more predictable like Tim searching Steph..

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite this.. I am proud of both girls.. Something that I miss with Barbara..


I will always be proud of my girls!

----------


## Frontier

I'm fine with young Robins (I'm not really a fan of Dick starting at 16), but I do think Jason should die in his late teens, like in _Under the Red Hood_.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm fine with young Robins (I'm not really a fan of Dick starting at 16), but I do think Jason should die in his late teens, like in _Under the Red Hood_.


Interesting. I wouldn't mind young Robins as much if DC didn't have an obsession with killing them off. If it had a lighter tone, it would be less gross, but there's something pretty evil about murdering 10-13 year olds for entertainment. Not that I approve of killing off any Robins no matter how old they are, but if they're closer to adulthood, there's more of a sense that it's tragedy, and not just grotesque cruelty.

----------


## adrikito

> I'm fine with young Robins (I'm not really a fan of Dick starting at 16), but I do think Jason should die in his late teens, like in _Under the Red Hood_.


That was something strange.. I prefer him begin with 9/10 years, like Damian.. More time to evolve..

----------


## millernumber1

> That was something strange.. I prefer him begin with 9/10 years, like Damian.. More time to evolve..


Which is nice. Except that then Batman is pushing 50.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Which is nice. Except that then Batman is pushing 50.*


Pfff, everyone knows that Bruce discovred the fountain of youth a long time ago and is at his eternal late 20s, early 30s  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Pfff, everyone knows that Bruce discovred the fountain of youth a long time ago and is at his eternal late 20s, early 30s


Well, according to Superheavy, Bruce is now physically in his mid to late 20s, even if he's actually in his early to mid thirties. Haha. Snyder, giving us a literal fountain of youth.

----------


## TheCape

> Well, according to Superheavy, Bruce is now physically in his mid to late 20s, even if he's actually in his early to mid thirties. Haha. Snyder, giving us a literal fountain of youth


I always thougth that would be a prefect excuse for DC to stop obssesing about keeping Bruce in his mid 30s, he literally was deaged in a sucessfull run, there you have it DC, stop making a fuss about it and accept that Bruce is entenring in the grandfather phase :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...1/20/dcfeb.htm

Apparently, Stephanie Brown Vol 2 DOES include the Grant Morrison story. That would be pretty amazing!

_BATGIRL: STEPHANIE BROWN VOL. 2 TP

Written by Bryan Q. Miller, art by Pere Perez, Lee Garbett, Dustin Nguyen, Ramon Bachs and others, cover by Dustin Nguyen,

Stephanie Brown's second semester at Gotham U. starts like anyone else's: new classes, new allies, a vigilante stalker -- everything a gal could want! But what Batgirl isn't prepared for is the arrival of the mysterious Order of the Scythe. Who are they, and why have they set their sights on her? Also features Clayface, Supergirl, Klarion the Witch-Boy, Damian Wayne and more! Collects Batgirl #13-24, Bruce Wayne: The Long Road Home: Batgirl #1 and a story from Batman Incorporated: Leviathan Strikes #1.

328 pages, $24.99, in stores on March 14._

----------


## adrikito

WOW... I never expected this... I never read the end of these pages... I know that I will see comics that I readed previously..

----------


## Sannom

> Apparently, Stephanie Brown Vol 2 DOES include the Grant Morrison story. That would be pretty amazing!


Maybe they realized that part one stopped just one issue short of the volume that stayed available the longest and thought that they should put some more in there?

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## adrikito

> OF deviantart:
> 
> Attachment 58031
> 
> https://kmkibble75.deviantart.com/ar...ving-715775751


I saw this image in INSTAGRAM again, with these words of his creator:

*
After finally reading some "Stephanie Brown as Batgirl" stories, I can see why she has such an avid fanbase.* She struck me as someone who wouldn't let nightly patrols get in the way of enjoying an ice cream break, so here we are. After a month of focusing on pen and paper, it was interesting to get back to digital work. I realized I cut myself much less slack when working on the computer, so things take much, much longer.


Like any fan, I like to see others praising my favorite characters

----------


## millernumber1

I do want to bring something up from the preview: as I'd hoped, we now know the new mayor of Gotham. And it's an ominous one for Steph fans: Michael Akins, former Commisioner. Most famous for being in charge during Gotham Central's run - during War Games. I still think Tynion is smarter than replaying War Games literally, having Steph start a gang war - but this is dark news.

Though I do really like Akins as a character, and I love that we've gotten the transfer of power from League of Shadows. I love the way Tynion builds Gotham.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> 


Fun Fact: I f**king love Yuri on Ice! As such, this is awesome.

----------


## millernumber1

> 


Finally watched this - that's some really excellent pulling from the comics, and really honoring ALL of the Robins. Amazing!

----------


## Frontier

> Though I do really like Akins as a character, and I love that we've gotten the transfer of power from League of Shadows. I love the way Tynion builds Gotham.


He's really the only one who doees  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> He's really the only one who doees .


I mean...Tec is my favorite title in a LONG time, and Tynion is my current favorite Batman writer...so I'm not going to say no...

(Though the Bensons do throw in bits of Gotham building every now and then. Gotta be fair to my Birds.  :Smile:  )

----------


## adrikito

> I do want to bring something up from the preview: as I'd hoped, we now know the new mayor of Gotham.* And it's an ominous one for Steph fans: Michael Akins, former Commisioner.* Most famous for being in charge during Gotham Central's run - during War Games. I still think Tynion is smarter than replaying War Games literally, having Steph start a gang war - *but this is dark news.*


That does not sound good..  :Frown:  Anyway, everything can not be always good..




> Though I do really like Akins as a character, and I love that we've gotten the transfer of power from League of Shadows. I love the way Tynion builds Gotham.


But this sounds better..

----------


## adrikito

> 


Someone intelligent, that reminds all the robins.. 

Even adding one robin one another universe, carrie..  :Confused:  Forgetting Helena Wayne..

----------


## TheCape

f99c20d6d08826d7ccee6a02fa789dab--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
The kiss that never happened, millernumber1 still laments it to this day  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> f99c20d6d08826d7ccee6a02fa789dab--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
> The kiss that never happened, millernumber1 still laments it to this day


Darn right I do! I was robbed! Well, Steph was robbed.

----------


## TheCape

> Darn right I do! I was robbed! Well, Steph was robbed.


Steph was the one that stopped the kiss thougth  :Smile: .

To be fair is rather difficult to keep a relation beetween 2 characther with their own title.

----------


## Frontier

> f99c20d6d08826d7ccee6a02fa789dab--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
> The kiss that never happened, millernumber1 still laments it to this day


I feel like I've seen this art before, but I love it!

Also kind of bummed this never happened in canon. Would've been a nice kiss...



> Steph was the one that stopped the kiss thougth .
> 
> To be fair is rather difficult to keep a relation beetween 2 characther with their own title.


I don't think I've ever really seen it consistently maintained unless both characters' relationship was being handled under the same writer (like Chuck Dixon developing DickxBabs between _Nightwing_ and _Birds of Prey_).

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph was the one that stopped the kiss thougth .
> 
> To be fair is rather difficult to keep a relation beetween 2 characther with their own title.





> I feel like I've seen this art before, but I love it!
> 
> Also kind of bummed this never happened in canon. Would've been a nice kiss...
> 
> I don't think I've ever really seen it consistently maintained unless both characters' relationship was being handled under the same writer (like Chuck Dixon developing DickxBabs between _Nightwing_ and _Birds of Prey_).


It could have happened! At least have Tim show up a couple more times!

----------


## adrikito

> f99c20d6d08826d7ccee6a02fa789dab--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
> the kiss that never happened, millernumber1 still laments it to this day


good image...

I am ignoring what happened between Steph and Anarky, she was confused in that moment but stopped that..

----------


## Miles To Go

> good image...
> 
> I am ignoring what happened between Steph and Anarky, she was confused in that moment but stopped that..


Stephanie commented a bit more on Lonnie in 'Tec this week...saying he has the same "contagious" intensity as Tim, so I don't think we're quite done with her infatuation with him. She's happy to see Tim at the moment, but as Kate says to him, she's only with the team believing Tim will retire and go to University, and he has no intention to anymore.

----------


## Assam

So...Miller's gonna f**king love today's issue.  :Wink:

----------


## Harpsikord

This issue was SO GOOD, especially as a Steph fan.

----------


## adrikito

> Stephanie commented a bit more on Lonnie in 'Tec this week...saying he has the same "contagious" intensity as Tim, so I don't think we're quite done with her infatuation with him. She's happy to see Tim at the moment, but as Kate says to him, she's only with the team believing Tim will retire and go to University, and he has no intention to anymore.


I saw this and I understand that... 

He was almost like another boyfriend.. He appeared with Steph in that Tomorrow future..




> This issue was SO GOOD, especially as a Steph fan.


Yes... FINALLY..

----------


## adrikito

TYNION WAS IN BATMAN ETERNAL, NO? He"killed" Cluemaster..

I think that I saw ENOUGH CLUES for confirm that the first victim is cluemaster(steph talking again with Cluemaster costume? WHY?)... Or that he will appear someday here..

HOWEVER, If never appears here.. No matter... I don´t like this character..

----------


## Aahz

> I'm fine with young Robins (I'm not really a fan of Dick starting at 16), but I do think Jason should die in his late teens, like in _Under the Red Hood_.


In Under the Red Hood seemed more like in his mid teens imo.

I liked stories with Jason as younger Robin and I don't want them to be erased just because Batman would look bad. And I really don't like that Jason (like it seem to be canon at the moment) just started as Robin at an age when Tim allready graduated to Red Robin.

----------


## Assam

> This issue was SO GOOD, especially as a Steph fan.


Personally I thought this was awful. Potentially the worst single-issue of this run so far.

----------


## Harpsikord

> Personally I thought this was awful. Potentially the worst single-issue of this run so far.


I disagree - it set up the dynamics well and hinted at things that will either be averted or will eventually come later. I think that Steph is going to be key in stopping the Syndicate, and that she may well not do exactly as Kate expects.

And to be honest I just love seeing her back around. I thought you'd be happy about the hint of Steph and Cass being besties, though it would've been nice to hear them speak.

----------


## Assam

> I disagree - it set up the dynamics well and hinted at things that will either be averted or will eventually come later. I think that Steph is going to be key in stopping the Syndicate, and that she may well not do exactly as Kate expects.
> 
> And to be honest I just love seeing her back around. I thought you'd be happy about the hint of Steph and Cass being besties, though it would've been nice to hear them speak.


See the 'Tec thread if you're at all interested on why I didn't care for the issue at all. 

And that's just it. "Hints" about Cass and Steph as BFFs are ALL we've gotten in this book. Hinting at it is no longer good enough. It's just insulting. "Show don't tell". It's not hard.

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie commented a bit more on Lonnie in 'Tec this week...saying he has the same "contagious" intensity as Tim, so I don't think we're quite done with her infatuation with him. She's happy to see Tim at the moment, but as Kate says to him, she's only with the team believing Tim will retire and go to University, and he has no intention to anymore.


I don't think Steph was ever infatuated with Lonnie. I think she was attracted to him, but she was the one who pulled away each time. I definitely think Lonnie is infatuated with her!




> So...Miller's gonna f**king love today's issue.


You are NOT WRONG!  :Smile: 




> This issue was SO GOOD, especially as a Steph fan.


Agreed! I'm not super happy about three things - the "go to this location in a few weeks" from Lonnie, hinting that Steph could once again work against the team; the fact that Tim is lying to her (because that is ALWAYS bad); and the fact that Akins is back (as stated before, I like Akins in and of himself, but he's so tightly tied to War Games that he still seems really ominous).




> I saw this and I understand that... 
> 
> He was almost like another boyfriend.. He appeared with Steph in that Tomorrow future..
> 
> Yes... FINALLY..


Yup. That is true - Lonnie does feel like Tynion is positioning him against Tim as a choice for Steph - but even in the Tomorrow future, Steph doesn't show significant romantic interest in Lonnie, I think. (Maybe that's my bias, but I do pay attention to these things.)




> TYNION WAS IN BATMAN ETERNAL, NO? He"killed" Cluemaster..
> 
> I think that I saw ENOUGH CLUES for confirm that the first victim is cluemaster(steph talking again with Cluemaster costume? WHY?)... Or that he will appear someday here..
> 
> HOWEVER, If never appears here.. No matter... I don´t like this character..


I am curious about whether First Victim is Cluemaster. That does still seem possible, especially with all the focus on Cluemaster's costume in Steph's secret base. I think First Victim is a good villain - one who can't really fight the team, so they resort to psychological warfare, which I think makes for a really interesting dynamic.




> I disagree - it set up the dynamics well and hinted at things that will either be averted or will eventually come later. I think that Steph is going to be key in stopping the Syndicate, and that she may well not do exactly as Kate expects.
> 
> And to be honest I just love seeing her back around. I thought you'd be happy about the hint of Steph and Cass being besties, though it would've been nice to hear them speak.


I very much hope that Steph is key to stopping the team, AND that she stays with them this time. Her lack of appearance in the preview pages for The Signal really bothers me, though.

----------


## millernumber1

Nobody posted this?

Robin 174 (2008) 019.jpg

Detective Comics 969-007.jpg

It's exhibit A in why I really liked this issue!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Nobody posted this?
> 
> Robin 174 (2008) 019.jpg
> 
> Detective Comics 969-007.jpg
> 
> It's exhibit A in why I really liked this issue!


I forgot put the image... Is in my PC...

Maybe for TT... Tim was in the last page, I think that remembering Tim Tomorrow words about Damian..

----------


## adrikito

I found today this image:

Stephanie brown batgirl cassandra cain robin damian supergirl.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I found today this image:
> 
> Stephanie brown batgirl cassandra cain robin damian supergirl.jpg


Some classic Nguyen!

----------


## Sannom

> It's exhibit A in why I really liked this issue!


The homage is obvious, but I'm not going to lie, I find the original art to be much, much better. It's simpler, cleaner and it "moves" a lot better.

----------


## millernumber1

> The homage is obvious, but I'm not going to lie, I find the original art to be much, much better. It's simpler, cleaner and it "moves" a lot better.


I would agree Batista's is much cleaner, but I think Bennet's body language does a good job of capturing the emotions. Not sure if I could say one or the other is "better" - but I think that it's definitely an homage, and so not necessarily trying to surpass it.

----------


## Sannom

I think this scene would have been better if they had fallen down because of Stephanie's momentum and Tim's surprise. With Tim fully embracing her as they go down.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think this scene would have been better if they had fallen down because of Stephanie's momentum and Tim's surprise. With Tim fully embracing her as they go down.


That would have ruined the one-page splash homage, though. (I think it would have been funny and sweet, though.)

----------


## Frontier

> Nobody posted this?
> 
> Robin 174 (2008) 019.jpg
> 
> Detective Comics 969-007.jpg
> 
> It's exhibit A in why I really liked this issue!


Whatever my opinions on this issue, this was definitely my favorite part  :Big Grin: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Whatever my opinions on this issue, this was definitely my favorite part .


Hooray! I love a good continuity kiss!

----------


## TheCape

> Whatever my opinions on this issue, this was definitely my favorite part*.


Completly agreed  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

So, I was rereading The Victim Syndicate, and ran across this bit that Steph says:

Screenshot_20171121-100433.jpg

Which is very similar to something Kate thinks about in Batwoman #9:

Screenshot_20171121-100816.jpg

Screenshot_20171121-100631.jpg

Coupled with that one panel of Steph crying over Kate apparently leaving, this is pretty interesting. 

Steph's main goal with what she was doing was to stop vigilantism to help save vigilantes from that kind of life, and that seems like something Kate has on her mind now. But they seem to be going about it in different ways: Steph by attempting to erode public trust in vigilantes, and Kate by, apparently, eliminating the need for vigilantes (killing supervillains). That's all speculation right now, but it's pretty neat and a lot of the evidence points to it.

----------


## millernumber1

> So, I was rereading The Victim Syndicate, and ran across this bit that Steph says:
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100433.jpg
> 
> Which is very similar to something Kate thinks about in Batwoman #9:
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100816.jpg
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100631.jpg
> ...


I wouldn't say Steph's goal is to undermine trust in vigilantes, so much as "wean the public off of their addiction to vigilantes."

But this is a very interesting thread - I think Steph's plot is definitely going to be tied to Kate's in the current arc.

----------


## adrikito

> So, I was rereading The Victim Syndicate, and ran across this bit that Steph says:
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100433.jpg
> 
> Which is very similar to something Kate thinks about in Batwoman #9:
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100816.jpg
> 
> Screenshot_20171121-100631.jpg
> ...


Very interesting..

----------


## Caivu

> I wouldn't say Steph's goal is to undermine trust in vigilantes, so much as "wean the public off of their addiction to vigilantes."


Po_tay_to, po_tah_to.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

Somehow I expect I'll be able to buy into this storyline with Kate, or that it'll be handled better, then Steph's has been.

----------


## TheCape

71a852a97e127596fb66c15484a46ae5--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
Nothing was the same after she hit him with that brick  :Big Grin: 
0ca2b45f5204ef615692f2844097f167--damian-wayne-batman-family.jpg
There is only one thing that Damian and Tim agreed  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> 71a852a97e127596fb66c15484a46ae5--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
> Nothing was the same after she hit him with that brick 
> 0ca2b45f5204ef615692f2844097f167--damian-wayne-batman-family.jpg
> There is only one thing that Damian and Tim agreed


First Image... Steph, after heard that Tim wants to be the next Batman

Second Image...  Both characters opinion about Steph... SHE IS SPECIAL.

----------


## Assam

> Second Image...  Both characters opinion about Steph... SHE IS SPECIAL.


Commercial Voice: 3/5 Batkids approve of Stephanie Brown!

----------


## shadowsgirl

I guess everyone needs a hobby.............

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Tim is taking Bruce's advise about dating at heart  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Po_tay_to, po_tah_to.


I have a feeling this is like Kate Kane is a mess/Kate Kane IS THE MESS.  :Wink: 




> 71a852a97e127596fb66c15484a46ae5--stephanie-brown-tim-drake.jpg
> Nothing was the same after she hit him with that brick 
> 0ca2b45f5204ef615692f2844097f167--damian-wayne-batman-family.jpg
> There is only one thing that Damian and Tim agreed


Cute!




> First Image... Steph, after heard that Tim wants to be the next Batman
> 
> Second Image...  Both characters opinion about Steph... SHE IS SPECIAL.


You're darn right, she is! (Also, ahahaha about your first caption.)




> Commercial Voice: 3/5 Batkids approve of Stephanie Brown!


Aw, yeah! Our poll numbers are coming up!




> Tim is taking Bruce's advise about dating at heart


Oh, man, Timmy, why are you listening to THAT?

----------


## TheCape

> Oh, man, Timmy, why are you listening to THAT?


Well, according to Dick, Bruce said that if a girl hits you, i means that she likes you. That led to Tim/Steph :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, according to Dick, Bruce said that if a girl hits you, i means that she likes you. That led to Tim/Steph


Well, it could be worse. There's always Lynx.  :Wink:

----------


## TheCape

> Well, it could be worse. There's always Lynx


1 or 2?  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> 1 or 2?


Well, 2 was the one he was macking on.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Well, 2 was the one he was macking on


Oh yeah, i wonder what Steph's reaction would have been  :Stick Out Tongue: . We still had the doubt if she was a police or not.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah, i wonder what Steph's reaction would have been . We still had the doubt if she was a police or not.


I mean...I think she was a corrupt cop that Tim had the chance to redeem. But it felt too much like "oh, hey, another girl for Tim to mack on."  (Oh, FabNic).

----------


## TheCape

> I mean...I think she was a corrupt cop that Tim had the chance to redeem. But it felt too much like "oh, hey, another girl for Tim to mack on." (Oh, FabNic).


I read it recently, she suposedly was part of police program on Hong Kong that was using teenagers, but Tim could never confirm if she was part of it, althougth i didn't particurlary cared for that aspec of Nicieza's run, i thougth that was at lesst interesting,.althougth honestly, i think that the whole thing would backfire on hin sooner or later.

----------


## millernumber1

> I read it recently, she suposedly was part of police program on Hong Kong that was using teenagers, but Tim could never confirm if she was part of it, althougth i didn't particurlary cared for that aspec of Nicieza's run, i thougth that was at lesst interesting,.althougth honestly, i think that the whole thing would backfire on hin sooner or later.


I think the idea was interesting. My read on the "Tim can't confirm it" was that she may have been recruited, but dropped out early, and is using it to play the cops and the gangs against each other for her own gain, and she doesn't have a moral commitment. And Tim is supposed to redeem her or something.

----------


## TheCape

> I think the idea was interesting. My read on the "Tim can't confirm it" was that she may have been recruited, but dropped out early, and is using it to play the cops and the gangs against each other for her own gain, and she doesn't have a moral commitment. And Tim is supposed to redeem her or something.


Apparently, he couldn't get access to files that has the name of the recruits, but your theory migth be correct.

Now for something to celebrate was this
RCO013.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Apparently, he couldn't get access to files that has the name of the recruits, but your theory migth be correct.
> 
> Now for something to celebrate was this
> RCO013.jpg


I wish Yost had stuck with the title...I loved when Cass showed up at the end of Red Robin, but other than that, the second half just didn't have much I liked. Except for the Bruce hug (also in the Lynx issue).

----------


## TheCape

Yost is a pretty good writter, his Scarlet Spider was great, even if Kaine monologues were starting to get on my nerves at the end, i think that he would be a great choice to bring Tim back to his Spider-esque status. Didn't have much problem with Nicieza personally, except for the whole "harem" thing, even when kt wasn't really a direction that i wanted for Tim in a long term.

And because this Steph thread i feel that i must post this
RCO007_w.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Yost is a pretty good writter, his Scarlet Spider was great, even if Kaine monologues were starting to get on my nerves at the end, i think that he would be a great choice to bring Tim back to his Spider-esque status. Didn't have much problem with Nicieza personally, except for the whole "harem" thing, even when kt wasn't really a direction that i wanted for Tim in a long term.
> 
> And because this Steph thread i feel that i must post this
> RCO007_w.jpg


Ah, yes. I love Collision - that was, surprisingly, the hardest thing to collect for my hard copy Steph collection (I ended up paying about 30 for it, and 30 for The Grail in an ebay sale). But it was well worth it - not just for the awesome Steph scenes, but for the Marcus To art and the solid plotting by Yost. I am just irritated with FabNic as a Steph fan for having him write Tim as treating Steph like a complete stranger - just another Batfamily member. At least Yost and BQM wrote the sense of history between them.

----------


## TheCape

> Ah, yes. I love Collision - that was, surprisingly, the hardest thing to collect for my hard copy Steph collection (I ended up paying about 30 for it, and 30 for The Grail in an ebay sale). But it was well worth it - not just for the awesome Steph scenes, but for the Marcus To art and the solid plotting by Yost. I am just irritated with FabNic as a Steph fan for having him write Tim as treating Steph like a complete stranger - just another Batfamily member. At least Yost and BQM wrote the sense of history between them.


I thougth tha wrote then as amicable exes for the most part, but i only remenber 1 scene when he asked her about Scarab and comments about her looks (in his head) ah Tim old fetish for blondes and women in Batgirl costume attacks again  :Stick Out Tongue:  (seriously he was attracted to Barbara too during Zero Hour).

----------


## Assam

I think Yost's run is objectively better from a critical stand point (and it's not even close IMO)...but FabNic included Cass (#25 is definitely one of my favorites issues) and had To draw her as Batman soooooo, yeah, he wins.  :Wink: 




> And because this Steph thread i feel that i must post this
> RCO007_w.jpg


Great scene, there.

----------


## millernumber1

> I thougth tha wrote then as amicable exes for the most part, but i only remenber 1 scene when he asked her about Scarab and comments about her looks (in his head) ah Tim old fetish for blondes and women in Batgirl costume attacks again  (seriously he was attracted to Barbara too during Zero Hour).


The problem with the scene where Tim thinks about "hormonal tension" is that it's completely unconnected to the fact that he dated her for years and years. It feels like "Oh, this is Robin, thinking Batgirl is hot, and he has no history with this character at all." (Tim does really love Batgirl costumes - he's had a thing for Babs, Cass, and Steph in it.) (But to be fair, many people can relate.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Yost's run is objectively better from a critical stand point (and it's not even close IMO)...but FabNic included Cass (#25 is definitely one of my favorites issues) and had To draw her as Batman soooooo, yeah, he wins.


Wait, when did Cass show up as Batman?

----------


## Assam

> I thougth tha wrote then as amicable exes for the most part, but i only remenber 1 scene when he asked her about Scarab and comments about her looks (in his head) ah Tim old fetish for blondes and women in Batgirl costume attacks again  (seriously he was attracted to Barbara too during Zero Hour).


Yeah, Tim has been turned on by all three Batgirls at one point or another. _Creepy_. Probably Helena too at one point or another, even if I can't remember off the top of my head. Good thing for Charlie they never met.

----------


## Assam

> Wait, when did Cass show up as Batman?


Red Robin #19 in the Unternet. Tim's idea of the future Justice League: 

one true batman.jpg

----------


## TheCape

> But to be fair, many people can relate.*


Yeah, i certanly don't blame him.......

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, Tim has been turned on by all three Batgirls at one point or another.*Creepy*Probably Helena too at one point or another, even if I can't remember off the top of my head. Good thing for Charlie they never met.


Yeah, Dixon was putting some "hot for teacher" subtext beetween those 2  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

> Good thing for Charlie they never met.


I don't think that Tim would have sink that low

----------


## Assam

> I don't think that Tim would have sink that low


Not sure what you mean there. Fairly sure Charlie was the same age as all the other teens. (Unless you're trying to diss Charlie, in which case, HAVE AT THEE!)

----------


## TheCape

> Not sure what you mean there. Fairly sure Charlie was the same age as all the other teens. (Unless you're trying to diss Charlie, in which case, HAVE AT THEE!)


I thougth that Charlie was 12 for some reason, my mistake there. Nothing against her, i found her "Dark Vengeance" amusing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Red Robin #19 in the Unternet. Tim's idea of the future Justice League: 
> 
> one true batman.jpg


How interesting. This reminds me - I haven't actually read Red Robin after Yost left, except for the Cass issue. The To art is gorgeous, but I just can't get into the writing (not to mention: two crossovers in a year? That was a bit much.)




> Yeah, Dixon was putting some "hot for teacher" subtext beetween those 2


I mean. Since Helena is probably vying for second place in my favorite Batfamily characters ever list, I also cannot blame Dixon or Tim for that. Even before the Jim Lee "800 sit-ups a day" suit.




> Not sure what you mean there. Fairly sure Charlie was the same age as all the other teens. (Unless you're trying to diss Charlie, in which case, HAVE AT THEE!)


Hmm. I've always thought that Charlie was at least 2 or 3 years younger than Tim and Steph. She generally acts about that age, I think - much less impulse control, much less self-awareness. Actually, something like Spoiler at the beginning of Robin.




> I thougth that Charlie was 12 for some reason, my mistake there. Nothing against her, i found his "Dark Vengeance" amusing.


I tend to agree with you about the age. However, I think Charlie is the bomb! I don't know if she can be considered one of my favorites, because she really never had any great storylines to herself (sadly, Club Kids was dreadful - one of the biggest reasons I really don't like Tony Bedard as a writer is how bad his run on Birds of Prey was, after Dixon, Simone, and McKeever did such a stellar job). But I get a really big smile every time she shows up.

----------


## TheCape

> I mean. Since Helena is probably vying for second place in my favorite Batfamily characters ever list, I also cannot blame Dixon or Tim for that. Even before the Jim Lee "800 sit-ups a day" suit.


I was half joking, i don't really remenber much of Tim showing attraction toward Helena, but i guest that you could read some of his attitude toward her as having an small crush.

Also, i'm pretty sure than that Jim Lee costume make some people jump into puberty  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> How interesting. This reminds me - I haven't actually read Red Robin after Yost left, except for the Cass issue. The To art is gorgeous,


I do plan on commissioning a full version of CassBatman from To once he reopens his commissions. A half-body shot is not good enough dammit!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I tend to agree with you about the age. However, I think Charlie is the bomb! I don't know if she can be considered one of my favorites, because she really never had any great storylines to herself (sadly, Club Kids was dreadful - one of the biggest reasons I really don't like Tony Bedard as a writer is how bad his run on Birds of Prey was, after Dixon, Simone, and McKeever did such a stellar job). But I get a really big smile every time she shows up.


I disagree about Club Kids being dreadful, even if it wasn't great by any means. Although that could have to do with me liking Black Alice WAAAAAAAY more than most people. 

And Bedard really is just a mixed bag you never know what you'll get with. Sometimes he writes some really good stuff (Exiles, Convergence: Speed Force, serving as the editor for Hourman) and sometimes he REALLY misses the mark (Birds of Prey, Nu52 Blue Beetle)

----------


## Frontier

> Red Robin #19 in the Unternet. Tim's idea of the future Justice League: 
> 
> one true batman.jpg


The full black mask doesn't really work with the rest of the costume in my opinion. 

Although, ironically, it does resemble the _Young Justice_ Batgirl costume a tad...or the Batman costume in it. 

And I guess the idea is that Post-Crisis Supergirl develops into Silver Age Supergirl? Really the only difference with Kara I can see.

Bart's looking like he's predicting Wally's Rebirth look with that mask.

----------


## millernumber1

> I was half joking, i don't really remenber much of Tim showing attraction toward Helena, but i guest that you could read some of his attitude toward her as having an small crush.
> 
> Also, i'm pretty sure than that Jim Lee costume make some people jump into puberty


It was weird to me - Huntress was always the Simone Birds of Prey Huntress to me - I didn't read Cry for Blood until much, much later (and fell in love with it), so I just went with the generally cheesecake-tastic character design of all the characters.

I don't know that Tim ever did really crush on Helena. I'm just saying I don't blame him if he did.




> I disagree about Club Kids being dreadful, even if it wasn't great by any means. Although that could have to do with me liking Black Alice WAAAAAAAY more than most people. 
> 
> And Bedard really is just a mixed bag you never know what you'll get with. Sometimes he writes some really good stuff (Exiles, Convergence: Speed Force, serving as the editor for Hourman) and sometimes he REALLY misses the mark (Birds of Prey, Nu52 Blue Beetle)


Hmm. I'm just not a fan of the "underground superpowered gladatorial games" thing - it felt really cliched, even at the time. And Bedard didn't really do much for the characters. (I happen to really dislike Black Alice. Because during McKeever's arc on Birds of Prey, I was firmly on Charlie's side.)

----------


## Assam

> Hmm. I'm just not a fan of the "underground superpowered gladatorial games" thing - it felt really cliched, even at the time. And Bedard didn't really do much for the characters. (I happen to really dislike Black Alice. Because during McKeever's arc on Birds of Prey, I was firmly on Charlie's side.)


I thought both of them looked bad the way McKeever wrote their conflict. My Black Alice fandom (she's kinda one of my favorite DC magic users) comes partially from Simone BoP appearances, but primarily from Secret Six.

----------


## millernumber1

> I thought both of them looked bad the way McKeever wrote their conflict. My Black Alice fandom (she's kinda one of my favorite DC magic users) comes partially from Simone BoP appearances, but primarily from Secret Six.


I've always had trouble with Secret Six for the same reason I don't really love Suicide Squad - villain teams are generally not something I get super invested in. Secret Six is the closest I've ever gotten, but even that didn't completely work. Eh.

----------


## Assam

> I've always had trouble with Secret Six for the same reason I don't really love Suicide Squad - villain teams are generally not something I get super invested in. Secret Six is the closest I've ever gotten, but even that didn't completely work. Eh.


I generally don't care about DC's villains at all. There are some I do, but for the most part, while I can enjoy their presence or find them interesting, I usually won't _care_. But the Six got me hook, line and sinker. Say it all the time, but I think it's Simone's best work no contest, one of the best things DC's ever published, and its main cast are my favorite villains in the DCU.

----------


## millernumber1

> I generally don't care about DC's villains at all. There are some I do, but for the most part, while I can enjoy their presence or find them interesting, I usually won't _care_. But the Six got me hook, line and sinker. Say it all the time, but I think it's Simone's best work no contest, one of the best things DC's ever published, and its main cast are my favorite villains in the DCU.


Well, for me it's Birds of Prey all the way, largely because it felt like it made a difference in the DC universe - and because it was about heroes, and I love that. The fact that it's one of the few places outside of Cass's Batgirl run where Steph was remembered also helps a lot.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Yost is a pretty good writter, his Scarlet Spider was great, even if Kaine monologues were starting to get on my nerves at the end, i think that he would be a great choice to bring Tim back to his Spider-esque status. Didn't have much problem with Nicieza personally, except for the whole "harem" thing, even when kt wasn't really a direction that i wanted for Tim in a long term.
> 
> And because this Steph thread i feel that i must post this
> Attachment 58211


Awesome, Tim face is.. WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?

----------


## TheCape

> Awesome, Tim face is.. WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?


Yup, he is very surprised and excited :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Well, for me it's Birds of Prey all the way, largely because it felt like it made a difference in the DC universe - and because it was about heroes, and I love that. The fact that it's one of the few places outside of Cass's Batgirl run where Steph was remembered also helps a lot.


You should participate here, you can put your favorite female character in all comicdom..

http://community.comicbookresources....omicdom/page10

I choosed Steph, of course... My only mistake was put one image only with Spoiler, not one image with all steph roles..

.. You can only post 1 time adding *the name of your character*(+5), in the first page you can see the rules.

----------


## millernumber1

> You should participate here, you can put your favorite female character in all comicdom..
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....omicdom/page10
> 
> I choosed Steph, of course... My only mistake was put one image only with Spoiler, not one image with all steph roles..
> 
> .. You can only post 1 time adding *the name of your character*(+5), in the first page you can see the rules.


Good call! I posted my Marcus To collection picture:

Marcus To All Stephs.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Good call! I posted my Marcus To collection picture:
> 
> Marcus To All Stephs.jpg


Even if this collection image is not in color, is amazing..

----------


## adrikito

Stephanie and Cassandra 
Photo taken by Damian

tumblr_p01hz02YyT1wsqlqyo1_500.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie and Cassandra 
> Photo taken by Damian
> 
> tumblr_p01hz02YyT1wsqlqyo1_500.jpg


I like these little "instagram" captions things I see floating around. Makes me really wish there was some kind of DC-run social media for their characters. But that would probably need a full-time staff person, and wouldn't be as good as the fun stuff.

----------


## TheCape

56f9acf00b0e7ac729f5e248bca58a90--that-awkward-moment-awkward-moments.jpg
Steph had a Superboy (Kon El) poster? cool  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> 56f9acf00b0e7ac729f5e248bca58a90--that-awkward-moment-awkward-moments.jpg
> Steph had a Superboy (Kon El) poster? cool


Haha. I can bet you that Tynion will bring that back. She's already been seen reading Superman comics!

----------


## TheCape

> Haha. I can bet you that Tynion will bring that back. She's already been seen reading Superman comics!


 Well, both Kon and Steph are two of the most important (if not the most) people in Tim's life, it would be nice tonsee then interacting more, the only time that i remenber talking was the blink and you miss issue on Johns TT

----------


## Assam

> Haha. I can bet you that Tynion will bring that back. She's already been seen reading Superman comics!


Bonus points if there's a background shot or something of Cass staring at it with interest.

Actually for all we know, Tynion _might_ be a CassKon shipper.  :Confused:

----------


## TheCape

> Actually for all we know, Tynion*might*be a CassKon shipper.*


Nah, Tynion loves the 90s classics, he is probably a CassieKon shipper.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, both Kon and Steph are two of the most important (if not the most) people in Tim's life, it would be nice tonsee then interacting more, the only time that i remenber talking was the blink and you miss issue on Johns TT


Back when Steph was Robin? That was the strangest thing for someone like me who wasn't reading Teen Titans.

----------


## TheCape

> Back when Steph was Robin? That was the strangest thing for someone like me who wasn't reading Teen Titans.


Yup, Kon didn't react well to the news.

----------


## Assam

> Well, both Kon and Steph are two of the most important (if not the most) people in Tim's life


I know it's my bias against Teen Titans Vol. 3, but damn if I'll _never_ agree that Kon is anymore important to Tim than Bart and Cassie. 




> the only time that i remenber talking was the blink and you miss issue on Johns TT


They'll always have assisting in the invasion of a country together.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yup, Kon didn't react well to the news.


He was the voice of the editors.  :Wink:  (Too soon? Don't care! STEPH WAS ROBIN!)

tenchi_teentitans13_p12.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Nah, Tynion loves the 90s classics, he is probably a CassieKon shipper.


Except Cassie and Kon's relationship didn't actually start till the last issue of Young Justice...but now I'm remembering that he LOVES Johns' TT so yeah, he probably ships them.

----------


## TheCape

> I know it's my bias against Teen Titans Vol. 3, but damn if I'll*never*agree that Kon is anymore important to Tim than Bart and Cassie.*


Bart and Tim is a very undervalued friendship, i consider Cassie his best female friend and Kon his best male friend.

----------


## millernumber1

As someone who came to Tim largely through Gotham only, or through Steph, his Titans life always felt really OOC and AU to me. It never seemed to mesh with his values and priorities in the Robin book.

Of course, I feel the same way about Batman and Justice League.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

Ironically my first contact with Tim was when i was reading the NTT era and the were doing croosover (many people forgrt that A Lonely Place of Dying happened in that title too),  i think of Tim as a person that prefers to work alone or in duo, but isn't above being part of a team, just not as a leader. JT Krul take on Tim was pretty good thought.

----------


## Assam

> i think of Tim as a person that prefers to work alone or in duo, but isn't above being part of a team, just not as a leader.


Well, it did take him some time to get over himself in YJ and he made a number of bad calls, but credit where its due that once Cassie _was_ in charge, he happily deferred to her. 

Also, since you brought it up, I'm pretty sure the first comic I saw Tim in was Young Justice #1.

----------


## millernumber1

I think one of the first times I ever learned about Steph was reading in a DC encyclopedia thingy in the library, which gave a summary of her story including the pregnancy. Stuck in my head, and later, when I really fell in love with the character, I remember it matching what I re-learned about her history.

----------


## adrikito

This topic is very active, I like this..

My first comics was *Batman Robin 34*(robin rises 2)... My first step in DC.

I don´t mention my childhood comics because, all were family presents.. I never saw the complete volumes.


As I mentioned previously and because is Steph appreciation, I should talk about her.. I know Steph for the same reason that I know about Cass, thanks to the old readers that wanted both in N52.. Before Batman Eternal I searched information about these 2 for know them..

----------


## millernumber1

> This topic is very active, I like this..
> 
> My first comics was *Batman Robin 34*(robin rises 2)... My first step in DC.
> 
> I don´t mention my childhood comics because, all were family presents.. I never saw the complete volumes.


Ah, so you started around the time I restarted, during Batman Eternal. A good time, I think.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Ah, so you started around the time I restarted, during Batman Eternal. A good time, I think.


I remember that you mentioned your return previously.. Yes, I started in Batman and Robin and I think that Batman Eternal was my 2nd or 3rd comic, I remember that FOREVER EVIL was one of the first 5 comics that I read, Lex Luthor in the JL shocked me in Batman and Robin 34..

Batman was my initial reason here... Then, as many people I followed other comics like Superman, Green Lantern, Wonderwoman, Batgirl(until burnside started)... Because I knew about these characters..

----------


## Frontier

> I think one of the first times I ever learned about Steph was reading in a DC encyclopedia thingy in the library, which gave a summary of her story including the pregnancy. Stuck in my head, and later, when I really fell in love with the character, I remember it matching what I re-learned about her history.


I think I first read about her in a Batman encyclopedia thing that had a lot of 90's stuff in it, which was wayyyy before I started reading the comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think I first read about her in a Batman encyclopedia thing that had a lot of 90's stuff in it, which was wayyyy before I started reading the comics.


I wonder if it was the same encyclopedia...  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

First exposure to Steph? Take a wild guess.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> First exposure to Steph? Take a wild guess.


I HAVE NO IDEA.  :Wink:  It definitely WASN'T in a book starring CASS, though.

----------


## TheCape

I found about Steph when i found that there was more than one Robin and i found about her reading wikipedia. My first comic book expousure to her was that TT Johns issue.

----------


## millernumber1

> I found about Steph when i found that there was more than one Robin and i found about her reading wikipedia. My first comic book expousure to her was that TT Johns issue.


Well, it's definitely not the worst Steph issue. At least Batman sticks up for her, and Steph has her great look and attitude.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Well, it's definitely not the worst Steph issue. At least Batman sticks up for her, and Steph has her great look and attitude


Yeah, i was actually kind of indifferent toward Steph when i first saw her, until Miller's Batgirl and Yost's RR i didn't get interested on her. I consider her part of the legend because is the only way that i can find War Games less painfull.... still doesn't help much.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, i was actually kind of indifferent toward Steph when i first saw her, until Miller's Batgirl and Yost's RR i didn't get interested on her. I consider her part of the legend because is the only way that i can find War Games less painfull.... still doesn't help much.


Yeah. For me, I did read through War Games in trade as it was coming out in 2006, and I assumed that that was it for poor Steph (I was but a babby in comic book death then). When I read Dixon's arc where she returned, I was happy, but then FabNic's run immediately screwed everything up. Only when she became Batgirl did I really become a huge fan of her.

But I always will cherish those words: Part of the legend. It was a terrible crossover, terrible editorial decision, but it did give Steph and her fans something to fight for!

----------


## adrikito

Talking about Steph, she appeared today in Batman Annual 2(only in this page)... I received this image..

old bruce wayne death.jpg

If that blonde with purple costume is not Steph... I can´t understand who is she...

----------


## TheCape

Why Dick seems to look way older than Barbara?

And who's the guy behind Duke. 

Yeah, that woman is Steph, i coud recognize my girl anywhere  :Smile: . I'm going to guest than that's Tim at her side.

----------


## adrikito

> Why Dick seems to look way older than Barbara?
> 
> And who's the guy behind Duke. 
> 
> Yeah, that woman is Steph, i coud recognize my girl anywhere . I'm going to guest than that's Tim at her side.


Unfortunatelly, if King is not forgetting Tim again, I think that this man near Steph is not Damian..  :Mad:   :Mad: 

I see stupid forget Damian(the son) or even Tim(if this is the case) for add Carrie, Duke and one blonde unknow character..

----------


## millernumber1

> Why Dick seems to look way older than Barbara?
> 
> And who's the guy behind Duke. 
> 
> Yeah, that woman is Steph, i coud recognize my girl anywhere . I'm going to guest than that's Tim at her side.


It's funny - in both Nightwing The New Order and this Annual, we keep seeing hints that Steph and Tim are a thing in the future.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> It's funny - in both Nightwing The New Order and this Annual, we keep seeing hints that Steph and Tim are a thing in the future.*


Well, Steph in my opinion is the only person that Tim has loved romantically in his life, so i'm not surprised  :Big Grin: . No that he didn't care about the other girls, is just think that is pretty clear that no other has a chance there.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, Steph in my opinion is the only person that Tim has loved romantically in his life, so i'm not surprised . No that he didn't care about the other girls, is just think that is pretty clear that no other has a chance there.


I'm glad that the shipping wars for Tim aren't as hot as for other characters. Because I'm not sure fans of Arianna, or Kon, or Zo, or Tam would agree.  :Smile: 

I do, obviously (though I do think he loved Ari), but I'm a die hard TimSteph shipper.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm glad that the shipping wars for Tim aren't as hot as for other characters. Because I'm not sure fans of Arianna, or Kon, or Zo, or Tam would agree.*
> 
> I do, obviously (though I do think he loved Ari), but I'm a die hard TimSteph shipper


I remenber seeing some rabid Tim/Kon shippers here and there, but yeah it isn't as bad as other, Dick fans don't have it as easy thougth.

Personally i'm not even saying this as a Tim/Steph guy, i like the relationship, but i have never been an entusiast, is just that looking things with an objective eye, the evidence is pretty clear.

----------


## millernumber1

> I remenber seeing some rabid Tim/Kon shippers here and there, but yeah it isn't as bad as other, Dick fans don't have it as easy thougth.
> 
> Personally i'm not even saying this as a Tim/Steph guy, i like the relationship, but i have never been an entusiast, is just that looking things with an objective eye, the evidence is pretty clear.


Haha, I wish other fans would do the same.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Haha, I wish other fans would do the same.*


Man, shipping is serious business in some part, i'm kind of gratefull that the Tim/Steph community is pretty chill thougth. Speaking for myself i rarely had the OTP mentality, i'm multi ship and i'm open to almosts evdrything, of course i like some pairings more than others. My only OTP is Peter/MJ thougth  :Big Grin: , only Felicia Hardy can make me reconsider the idea.

----------


## millernumber1

> Man, shipping is serious business in some part, i'm kind of gratefull that the Tim/Steph community is pretty chill thougth. Speaking for myself i rarely had the OTP mentality, i'm multi ship and i'm open to almosts evdrything, of course i like some pairings more than others. My only OTP is Peter/MJ thougth , only Felicia Hardy can make me reconsider the idea.


I love shipping, but shipping wars take the fun out of it. Totally with you on Peter/MJ, though! (I have enjoyed a good Peter/Black Cat story, but not usually long term).

----------


## adrikito

> I do, obviously (though I do think he loved Ari), but I'm a die hard TimSteph shipper.


I am one TimSteph shipper because I want her happy, nothing more... I can´t see with other boys, only because Damian is too young and Maya existence... Without Maya, if there was a possibility, I would not be against it...

*Damian and Steph are my favorite male and female of DC... For this I am angry when I see the characters in bad situations..* 

However, the angry Steph for Tim "death"(this is love) was better(and I could enjoyed this) than Damian trapped in Supersons(another Teen Titans Go).. Damnit, without N52 maybe things like Burnside and Supersons would never happened..

And even worse things await him... One school... With a comic like Supersons, more ridiculous situations..  :Mad:  Only for continue protecting Superman son, with strange people fan of this serie shipping this kid with Damian.  :Mad: 

Without Teen Titans Damian will be in a similar situation to Barbara.. What a shame that Damian is not student in Gotham Academy.

----------


## millernumber1

> I am one TimSteph shipper because I want her happy, nothing more... I can´t see with other boys, only because Damian is too young and Maya existence... Without Maya, if there was a possibility, I would not be against it...
> 
> Damian and Steph are my favorite male and female of DC... For this I am angry when I see the characters in situations that I don´t like... 
> 
> However, the angry Steph for Tim "death"(this is love) was better(and I could enjoyed this) than Damian trapped in Supersons(like one boy in one comic in burnside).. Damnit, without N52 maybe things like Burnside and Supersons would never happened..
> 
> And even worse things await him... One school... With a comic like Supersons, more ridiculous situations, Damian is living in another TT Go...  Only for continue protecting Superman son.. and strange people fan of this serie shipping him with Superboy..
> 
> With Gotham Academy maybe the things would be different, but I doubt it, is Supersons..


Haha. I'm not usually a Steph/Damian shipper, but if DC ever lets Damian hit 18, I'd be okay with it. (I also think Maya would be a great ship for Damian.)

I'm bummed that Damian couldn't go to Gotham Academy and hang out with Maps (ooh, there's another good ship, I think). But that title is gone.  :Frown:

----------


## TheCape

> Haha. I'm not usually a Steph/Damian shipper, but if DC ever lets Damian hit 18, I'd be okay with it. (I also think Maya would be a great ship for Damian.)


Steph and Damian?, that's a personal old shame. Maya, i used to, but at the same time, that scene when she said that Damian "would always had a sister" makes me doubt the idea, but i'm not against it. Maps is my favorite choice thougth, even when i don't feel strongly to any particular Damianx???? ship.

----------


## adrikito

> Haha. I'm not usually a Steph/Damian shipper, but if DC ever lets Damian hit 18, I'd be okay with it. (I also think Maya would be a great ship for Damian.)
> 
> I'm bummed that Damian couldn't go to Gotham Academy and hang out with Maps (ooh, there's another good ship, I think). But that title is gone.


Seems that Grayson in only one page of Green Arrow Annual made that emiko(damian recent first crush) fall in love with him, using Grayson the correct words... HAHAHA.. No one can overcome the master.. But she is very young for him..

So, Maya remains as option... Like Steph with Tim, she was created thanks to Damian, maybe for this I think that this can work correctly, or that RSOB events makes them the Perfect Couple. *I would return to Supersons only if Maya, suddently was another character in this comic..*(something impossible, thanks again school  :Mad: ) She would compensate all the future nonsense of that comic..

In that moment I saw Damian and Maps as a good ship too.. I liked Gotham Academy... The first time I saw the Principal as one brother of Ra´s Al Ghul... hahaha.. and one teacher(gotham academy 10 with Damian) as Riddler as teacher..

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems that Grayson in only one page of Green Arrow Annual made that emiko(damian recent first crush) fall in love with him, using Grayson the correct words... HAHAHA.. No one can overcome the master.. But she is very young for him..
> 
> So, Maya remains as option... Like Steph with Tim, she was created thanks to Damian, maybe for this I think that this can work correctly, or that RSOB events makes them the Perfect Couple. *I would return to Supersons only if Maya, suddently was another character in this comic..*(something impossible, thanks again school ) She would compensate all the future nonsense of that comic..
> 
> In that moment I saw Damian and Maps as a good ship too.. I liked Gotham Academy... The first time I saw the Principal as one brother of Ra´s Al Ghul... hahaha.. and one teacher(gotham academy 10 with Damian) as Riddler as teacher..


I was really bummed when Maya appeared in Superman but was basically written out. I still miss her. But she's not super or a son, so I guess no love for her.  :Frown: 

Gotham Academy had some really delightful ideas - I still love Katherine Karlo, and think she would have been a better friend for Maps than Olive for most of the second semester.

----------


## adrikito

> I was really bummed when Maya appeared in Superman but was basically written out. I still miss her. But she's not super or a son, so I guess no love for her. 
> 
> Gotham Academy had some really delightful ideas - I still love Katherine Karlo, and think she would have been a better friend for Maps than Olive for most of the second semester.


Yeah, for this after Gleason Superman, I hope see him return with his RSOB project, the people say that he deserve his own project in the future for his great work in superman.. Gleason said that he has big plans for her(Superman 10/11 interview)... But I should wait..

I remember her but she is not lucky like Cobblepot Son(I heard about him in a future 2018 solicitation of batgirl, he was even in the cover).. Maybe if the *AMY? idea* never happened Gotham Academy would continue here.. and Damian would have joined the DETECTIVE club..

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, for this after Gleason Superman, I hope see him return with his RSOB project..
> 
> They forget her too... Now that her father is in the good side.. Maybe if the.... AMY? idea never happened Gotham Academy would continue here.. and Damian would have joined the DETECTIVE club..


Yeah. I want a Gleason Damian and Maya miniseries so badly...(I know it's probably impossible, but also Steph!)

I will never forget Katherine! She can chill where Batgirl Steph, Cass and Damian chilled:

1.jpg
http://punchpolygons.tumblr.com/post...mic-book-limbo

2.jpg
http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1180...-want-lots-and

----------


## adrikito

I remember see that interview in Newsarama, even in CBR exists this interview:

https://www.cbr.com/superboy-robin-j...n-superman-10/

*Gleason:* I put her in “Superman” #10 and 11, and it was a really intentional thing. When I left her in “Robin: Son of Batman,” she was just kind of out there. In my mind, she has a really big part to play in the DCU, with a really large character arc. One of the things that I wanted was let people know that he is still out there. There is a plan for her in the background so I was really glad to re-introduce her in “Superman” #10. 
*
Tomasi:* We won’t see her in “Super Sons” right off the bat, but having a really cool, youthful character like Maya with a really distinct personality, there is no way that I’m not going to bring her in at some point later down the line.


I saw potential in both characters and Gleason too... Goliath in TT gave me hopes and then.. Fortunatelly Gleason confirmed Maya in one sketch of Superman 10..




> Yeah. I want a Gleason Damian and Maya miniseries so badly...(I know it's probably impossible, but also Steph!)
> 
> I will never forget Katherine! She can chill where Batgirl Steph, Cass and Damian chilled:
> 
> 1.jpg
> http://punchpolygons.tumblr.com/post...mic-book-limbo
> 
> 2.jpg
> http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1180...-want-lots-and


HAAHAHHA.. All funny.. I shouldn´t be surprised, this is Steph appreciation..

----------


## adrikito

Detective Comics 973 Variant Cover:

detective-comics-973-Rafael-Albuquerque-600x911.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Detective Comics 973 Variant Cover:
> 
> detective-comics-973-Rafael-Albuquerque-600x911.jpg


Oooh, Steph!

----------


## adrikito

> Oooh, Steph!


The 973 issue is the FINAL issue of fall of batmen(before the annual).. The issue with the batwoman cover..

----------


## millernumber1

> The 973 issue is the FINAL issue of fall of batmen(before the annual).. The issue with the batwoman cover..


Where did you find the cover?

----------


## adrikito

In Bleedingcool, with others a variants covers..

----------


## millernumber1

> In Bleedingcool, with others a variants covers..


Ah, I see!  :Smile:  The "BLAM" seems to indicate that Batwoman will probably shoot someone, but that doesn't fit with my current theory that she is responsible for Clayface going evil again. Huh.

----------


## adrikito

> Ah, I see!  The "BLAM" seems to indicate that Batwoman will probably shoot someone, but that doesn't fit with my current theory that she is responsible for Clayface going evil again. Huh.


The victim syndicate will use something that will make them nearly unstoppable... Clayface?

Detective Comics 972
“Fall Of The Batmen” part four! Batman might have overpowered the Victim Syndicate,* but they had one last surprise for him: a secret weapon that’s made one of his strongest rogues nearly unstoppable! 
*
Detective Comics 971*
“Fall of the Batmen” part three! With the Victim Syndicate on the move and Clayface on the edge*, the team faces a crossroads—but Batwoman believes she knows the way forward! The trick is...does Batman agree?

----------


## millernumber1

> The victim syndicate will use something that will make them nearly unstoppable... Clayface?
> 
> Detective Comics 972
> “Fall Of The Batmen” part four! Batman might have overpowered the Victim Syndicate,* but they had one last surprise for him: a secret weapon that’s made one of his strongest rogues nearly unstoppable! 
> *
> Detective Comics 971*
> “Fall of the Batmen” part three! With the Victim Syndicate on the move and Clayface on the edge*, the team faces a crossroads—but Batwoman believes she knows the way forward! The trick is...does Batman agree?


Well. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. TWO WEEK!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> The victim syndicate will use something that will make them nearly unstoppable... Clayface?
> 
> Detective Comics 972
> Fall Of The Batmen part four! Batman might have overpowered the Victim Syndicate,* but they had one last surprise for him: a secret weapon thats made one of his strongest rogues nearly unstoppable! 
> *
> Detective Comics 971*
> Fall of the Batmen part three! With the Victim Syndicate on the move and Clayface on the edge*, the team faces a crossroadsbut Batwoman believes she knows the way forward! The trick is...does Batman agree?


I know we saw him the background with Mudface, but for what might be his swan song, you'd think Basil would have had a larger part in the first issue of the arc. 




> Well. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. TWO WEEK!


You know if this book were a standard monthly, I'm fairly sure it would be completely unreadable.

----------


## millernumber1

> You know if this book were a standard monthly, I'm fairly sure it would be completely unreadable.


Well. I don't think so.  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

damian_steph01.jpg
Damian is more eager that he wants to let on.

----------


## millernumber1

> damian_steph01.jpg
> Damian is more eager that he wants to let on.


I love Mike Maihack, and really wish this were a print and not a commission. ALmost makes me want to pay for my own commission.

----------


## sakuyamons

> damian_steph01.jpg
> Damian is more eager that he wants to let on.


They are so cute, brother and sister  :Frown: . Completely retconned and with no chance of it happening again soon.

----------


## millernumber1

> They are so cute, brother and sister . Completely retconned and with no chance of it happening again soon.


And my RAGE knows no end!

----------


## K. Jones

> And my RAGE knows no end!


Tim's back, he's back with Steph, and he's appearing in Teen Titans soon. So I mean, retconned for sure, but we can hope maybe to see an echo, where Steph takes the mick out of a super-duper-serious Damian, right? Especially if Dami and Tim's animosity comes back!

----------


## sakuyamons

> And my RAGE knows no end!


It might be because I arrived in comics beginning of reboot/end of flashpoint, but Damian is my Robin and though I didn’t finish the run (I will when I buy the trades!) Steph was my Batgirl and I considered it a great Robin-Batgirl dynamic. Tynion needs to give this back to me!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> damian_steph01.jpg
> Damian is more eager that he wants to let on.


HAHHAHAHAHA... My favorite boy and my favorite girl in the same image..  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim's back, he's back with Steph, and he's appearing in Teen Titans soon. So I mean, retconned for sure, but we can hope maybe to see an echo, where Steph takes the mick out of a super-duper-serious Damian, right? Especially if Dami and Tim's animosity comes back!


The only chance is if Tynion wants to write it. I am positive that Tomasi will never touch Steph with a ten foot pole.

Now, if Seeley for some reason becomes a Damian writer, either for Super Sons or Teen Titans, I think there might be a chance.




> It might be because I arrived in comics beginning of reboot/end of flashpoint, but Damian is my Robin and though I didn’t finish the run (I will when I buy the trades!) Steph was my Batgirl and I considered it a great Robin-Batgirl dynamic. Tynion needs to give this back to me!


Trade 2 comes out in March! Very exciting!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Stephanie Brown club:

Stephanie brown batgirl cassandra cain robin damian supergirl.jpg

----------


## adrikito

MILLER, you know about this? I saw MILLERtumblr... Is very funny..

http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1680...comickergirl-x

For the reboots fault, Kara doesn´t know her..

----------


## millernumber1

> MILLER, you know about this? Is very funny..
> 
> http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1680...comickergirl-x
> 
> For the reboots fault, Kara doesn´t know her..


It me.  :Wink: 

Poor Kara and Steph. Robbed of what was and probably will never be again since DC is obsessed with Babsgirl.

----------


## adrikito

Of course, I saw your previous avatar in Tumblr.. 

I like Batman timeline too... Steph would be Batwoman, character with a comic..


I added Steph in my signature, I want one serie as I mentioned previously..

----------


## millernumber1

> I like Batman timeline too... Steph would be Batwoman..
> 
> Of course, now I saw your previous avatar in Tumblr..


Or Knightwing!  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

Steph's better off without that greasy buttcrack pooflap  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I like Batman timeline too... Steph would be Batwoman..


 Can't say I care for that timeline at all.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph's better off without that greasy buttcrack pooflap 
> 
>  Can't say I care for that timeline at all.


Not Dick Nightwing, Steph as Knightwing, her own identity.  :Smile: 

I personally think Steph should keep being a hero, but don't have a real preference for which identity she takes. But after late 20s, I think Batgirl would probably be a bit odd. (And I would prefer her to graduate from Spoiler. I know there's a lot of fans who think that Spoiler is the best identity ever for her, but...eh.)

----------


## adrikito

> Steph's better off without that greasy buttcrack pooflap 
> 
> 
>  Can't say I care for that timeline at all.


Cass is mentioned as Batgirl..

Sometimes I want Steph graduated from Spoiler but.. After JY, this will be her most famous alias..

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass is mentioned as Batgirl..
> 
> Sometimes I want Steph graduated from Spoiler but.. After JY, this will be her most famous alias..


True, that. It is a very complicated thing, this IP/brand.

----------


## Assam

> Not Dick Nightwing, Steph as Knightwing, her own identity.


I was referring to Kara  :Wink: 

I'm on board with Steph becoming Knightwing.

----------


## millernumber1

> I was referring to Kara 
> 
> I'm on board with Steph becoming Knightwing.


Ah, I see.  :Smile:  Supergirl is such a weird character. Coming at it from the perspective of "I see the world almost exclusively from Gotham", I really only see Supergirl as from Batgirl #14 and 23. And from that perspective, she's great. But from the perspective of her own title...yeah. She's a weirdo.

----------


## adrikito

> True, that. It is a very complicated thing, this IP/brand.


In the same way that Barbara was the most famous batgirl and for this she is batgirl now... I think that after YJ, Spoiler will be her permanent alias, maybe I am wrong... But I hope never replace Spoiler for something worst...

About Cass, with the doubts about Orphan name, maybe was a good idea, wait one season more than made the mistake of put Orphan as her alias...

----------


## Assam

> Ah, I see.  Supergirl is such a weird character. Coming at it from the perspective of "I see the world almost exclusively from Gotham", I really only see Supergirl as from Batgirl #14 and 23. And from that perspective, she's great. But from the perspective of her own title...yeah. She's a weirdo.


Much as I HATE Kara, one of the other Supergirls is among my favorite superheroes: Linda Danvers. I actually think you in particular would like her amazing solo book (Which DC has so far released 3 fat trades of) considering the book's heavy Christian themes and iconography, Linda herself being an Earth-Born Angel.

----------


## Frontier

> It me. 
> 
> Poor Kara and Steph. Robbed of what was and probably will never be again since DC is obsessed with Babsgirl.


I enjoyed that issue with Kara and Steph and their dynamic but I couldn't help but feel like the only reason they teamed-up at all was because Batgirl and Supergirl are known for being besties (when it's traditionally Kara and Babs) rather then from an organic development. 



> Ah, I see.  Supergirl is such a weird character. Coming at it from the perspective of "I see the world almost exclusively from Gotham", I really only see Supergirl as from Batgirl #14 and 23. And from that perspective, she's great. But from the perspective of her own title...yeah. She's a weirdo.


Do you feel that way about the entire Superfamily  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Assam

> About Cass, with the doubts about Orphan name, maybe was a good idea, wait one season more than made the mistake of put Orphan as her alias...


Thanks to the timeskips, they could have made her Batgirl, which at the end of the day, is the role she'll always be most loved in and what many, myself included, will always think of her as. Or even Black Bat, much as I dislike it in some ways, is clearly still available _outside_ the main line of comics despite the trademark issues, considering that's the identity she's going by in Bombshells. (Still total BS that Cass and Steph aren't part of the Batgirls there) 

And really, even if Cass's new identity is a good one (Which we can only hope for), any Cass is better than no Cass, but I don't want an adaptation of her to be primarily inspired by RebirthCass.

----------


## millernumber1

> Much as I HATE Kara, one of the other Supergirls is among my favorite superheroes: Linda Danvers. I actually think you in particular would like her amazing solo book (Which DC has so far released 3 fat trades of) considering the book's heavy Christian themes and iconography, Linda herself being an Earth-Born Angel.


Now that does sound very interesting - I'll have to check it out! Thanks!




> I enjoyed that issue with Kara and Steph and their dynamic but I couldn't help but feel like the only reason they teamed-up at all was because Batgirl and Supergirl are known for being besties (when it's traditionally Kara and Babs) rather then from an organic development. 
> 
> Do you feel that way about the entire Superfamily ?


I am generally not a huge fan of Superfamily stories, since I live in Gotham (in my head - I know it's not real  :Wink:  ). But I say that I think Kara is weird because of the whole time period around when she and Evil Cass fought. I read a couple of those stories, and...it was very strange, and Kara was very strange in it.

I do agree that the friendship does feel a bit shoehorned in - but hey, it was fun, and they did have the earlier setup with the World's Finest miniseries by Sterling Gates.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Much as I HATE Kara, one of the other Supergirls is among my favorite superheroes: Linda Danvers. I actually think you in particular would like her amazing solo book (Which DC has so far released 3 fat trades of) considering the book's heavy Christian themes and iconography, Linda herself being an Earth-Born Angel.


Fully agree about the Linda Danvers Supergirl.  Only Supergirl I ever cared for.

Unfortunately, Linda and Steph have only met in Fanfics.  But there was a teamup between Linda and Cass.

----------


## Assam

> But there was a teamup between Linda and Cass.


And I love it and wish there was more :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Fully agree about the Linda Danvers Supergirl.  Only Supergirl I ever cared for.
> 
> Unfortunately, Linda and Steph have only met in Fanfics, like this one.  But there was a teamup between Linda and Cass.


Wait, fanfics? Let me see!  :Smile:

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Wait, fanfics? Let me see!


There's this, which should be fun for Steph-as-Robin fans.  https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1147327...-of-the-Divine

----------


## millernumber1

> There's this, which should be fun for Steph-as-Robin fans.  https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1147327...-of-the-Divine


Oooh, that's delightful! Now I REALLY need to read me some 1990s Supergirl!

----------


## adrikito

> There's this, which should be fun for Steph-as-Robin fans.  https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1147327...-of-the-Divine


THANK YOU...


And thanks Steph, for my 4000th post.. My 279th post here.

----------


## sakuyamons

260496e397c05ded021de41bab507e6c.jpg

Cheeky banter between the two.

----------


## millernumber1

> 260496e397c05ded021de41bab507e6c.jpg
> 
> Cheeky banter between the two.


Steph/Damian banter is best banter!

----------


## Frontier

> 260496e397c05ded021de41bab507e6c.jpg
> 
> Cheeky banter between the two.


Priceless  :Wink: .

----------


## Assam

By dopingues:

pushover.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> By dopingues:
> 
> pushover.jpg


It doesn't always pay to be the good Robin  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> By dopingues:
> 
> pushover.jpg


Haha, I just saw that one on Tumblr. Very cute.

----------


## adrikito

> 260496e397c05ded021de41bab507e6c.jpg
> 
> cheeky banter between the two.


hahahaha..




> By dopingues:
> 
> pushover.jpg


Thank you, *Assam*

----------


## millernumber1

HUGE NEWS!

Steph IS the blonde in the Batman Annual #2: https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H1y8Jb (at minute 41-42ish), according to Tom King!

----------


## Dataweaver

Context, please?

----------


## millernumber1

> Context, please?


It's a podcast interview with Tom King about all the stuff he's doing right now. He talks about the Batman Annual for a good chunk, and around the 41-42 minute mark of the podcast (linked above), he goes through the panel of the future Batfamily at Bruce's deathbed, and says that it's Jason, Helena Wayne, Babs, Dick, Carrie Kelley, Duke, Damian, Steph, and Tim, in that order, from left to right. Damian's hair is a weird color, but according to King that's who it is. And he says that Cass is not accidentally missing - there are apparently plans for what she's doing in the future.

----------


## adrikito

> HUGE NEWS!
> 
> Steph IS the blonde in the Batman Annual #2: https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H1y8Jb (at minute 41-42ish), according to Tom King!


You doubted about that? Yes, In that moment I forgot Gotham Girl... however THE PURPLE NEVER CHEAT..  :Stick Out Tongue:   :Wink:  I think that he has better opinion about Steph than Tim, in one King TOP10 about fight skills she was above him.. However, Barbara was out of TOP10..




> says that Cass is not accidentally missing - there are apparently plans for what she's doing in the future.


*Assam* needs know this..

----------


## millernumber1

> You doubted about that? Tom King put Steph in one poll, I think that about Bat-family members skills... Steph was before Tim..


Haha, that's true. But people were telling me it's probably Claire (Gotham Girl), since King did create her after all. And when I begged him to include Steph at Baltimore Comic-Con this year, he said that Steph was James's character.

But whether my pleas had an effect or not, she is there! In the future!

----------


## Assam

> And he says that Cass is not accidentally missing - there are apparently plans for what she's doing in the future.


I can't believe he's actually going to be treating this story as canon. 

Also, the only acceptable reason for her not being there is that she's off planet with the Justice League Batmanning.

----------


## millernumber1

> I can't believe he's actually going to be treating this story as canon. 
> 
> Also, the only acceptable reason for her not being there is that she's off planet with the Justice League Batmanning.


I don't think King is the one setting Cass's future - if I had to bet, Tynion has plans, and King is honoring them.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think King is the one setting Cass's future - if I had to bet, Tynion has plans, and King is honoring them.


So then Tynion is treating it as canon? Is he gonna tie this into the future he's working with, where Cass is_ also_ missing? Is this why she's also not been mentioned in Beyond?  Is this gonna be a whole web of possible Bat-futures tied to Cass?

I'm overthinking things again, aren't I?

----------


## millernumber1

> So then Tynion is treating it as canon? Is he gonna tie this into the future he's working with, where Cass is_ also_ missing? Is this why she's also not been mentioned in Beyond?  Is this gonna be a whole web of possible Bat-futures tied to Cass?
> 
> I'm overthinking things again, aren't I?


No, I think Tynion has plans for Future Cass (maybe/maybe not linked to Titans of Tomorrow), and he told King about them, so King honored Tynion's plans in the Annual. I don't think Tynion is treating the Annual as canon, I think King is treating Tynion's future as canon in the Annual.

I don't touch Beyond with a ten-foot pole. I did read the Batwomen Beyond issue, but it wasn't super great. And Steph AND Cass are both missing there, so whatevs on that.

I do have faith that Tynion has plans for Cass, though. Yes I do!

----------


## Assam

> I don't touch Beyond with a ten-foot pole.


I'm with you there. The cartoon was fine, but the comic Beyond universe and comicTerry just bore me to tears.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm with you there. The cartoon was fine, but the comic Beyond universe and comicTerry just bore me to tears.


Especially since they keep making really weird decisions, like having Tim become a weird Jason expy in the future, or having Bruce father a kid with Barbara that she miscarries. Like...what the heck is up with that title?

(Also, where are Steph and Cass! You make this your "official future" but leave out so many characters! It was better when you just kept it in the DCAU.)

----------


## Assam

> (Also, where are Steph and Cass! You make this your "official future" but leave out so many characters! It was better when you just kept it in the DCAU.)


 To me, Beyond is just one of many possible futures and not canon to the main universe at all. It wasn't created to be, and I'll never accept it as such.

----------


## millernumber1

> To me, Beyond is just one of many possible futures and not canon to the main universe at all. It wasn't created to be, and I'll never accept it as such.


I do believe in creator's intent having meaning, but if it's not actually in the text, it doesn't count. Press releases may inform the interpretation of a thing, but what was actually published didn't actually affect the line-wide continuity of Batman's trajectory. For one thing, very few writers who worked on Future's End/Batman Beyond had any power to setup their stuff in the main continuity stuff. For another, Snyder has his own future he was building towards (the one with Sean Murphy), and that had way more power over the Batman line than anything the Future's End/Batman Beyond people would ever have.

----------


## WontonGirl

> No, I think Tynion has plans for Future Cass (maybe/maybe not linked to Titans of Tomorrow), and he told King about them, so King honored Tynion's plans in the Annual. I don't think Tynion is treating the Annual as canon, I think King is treating Tynion's future as canon in the Annual.
> 
> I don't touch Beyond with a ten-foot pole. I did read the Batwomen Beyond issue, but it wasn't super great. And Steph AND Cass are both missing there, so whatevs on that.
> 
> I do have faith that Tynion has plans for Cass, though. Yes I do!


Why would King do that? I thought the Bat title is the MAIN title and then Tec follows that?

----------


## millernumber1

> Why would King do that? I thought the Bat title is the MAIN title and then Tec follows that?


Because Cass's journey is currently controlled by Tynion, so he's being a good collaborator and acknowledging that. It's like how the Bensons are honoring King's plans for Catwoman by having Selina and Bruce's feelings for each other drive their actions in Birds of Prey. They didn't create that dynamic, but they are collaborating with King on these character's journeys.

Unless I'm wrong, and King has his own plans for Cass. But I really doubt that.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Because Cass's journey is currently controlled by Tynion, so he's being a good collaborator and acknowledging that. It's like how the Bensons are honoring King's plans for Catwoman by having Selina and Bruce's feelings for each other drive their actions in Birds of Prey. They didn't create that dynamic, but they are collaborating with King on these character's journeys.
> 
> Unless I'm wrong, and King has his own plans for Cass. But I really doubt that.


Okay I see. But why does Tynion has such control over the Cass character? Is she the star of Tec? because I never got that impression she was.

----------


## millernumber1

> Okay I see. But why does Tynion has such control over the Cass character? Is she the star of Tec? because I never got that impression she was.


Tynion has control over all the people in Tec, just like King has control over the regular characters in Batman. Tec is the home of all the characters who don't have their own ongoing, and Tyinon is their champion.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Tynion has control over all the people in Tec, just like King has control over the regular characters in Batman. Tec is the home of all the characters who don't have their own ongoing, and Tyinon is their champion.


Tec is the home for all the characters that don't have their own ongoing? Then why isn't Catwoman and Ivy in Tec? They don't have their own ongoing and so far, the engagement hasn't even been "mentioned". 

Again, why does he have such control over this one character?

----------


## millernumber1

> Tec is the home for all the characters that don't have their own ongoing? Then why isn't Catwoman and Ivy in Tec? They don't have their own ongoing and so far, the engagement hasn't even been "mentioned". 
> 
> Again, why does he have such control over this one character?


Well. That's true. Catwoman's home is in Batman, though. And Ivy has never had an ongoing. Miniseries.

He has control because no one else who's writing cares enough to want control, I think. (And it's not just Cass - it's Steph, Tim, Basil, Azrael, and Batwing - heck, I'm pretty sure he still has a lot of control over Batwoman even though she does have her own ongoing.)

As for mentioning the engagement - just hang on for a bit. I'm personally hoping that it gets mentioned pretty soon in the new Fall of the Batmen arc.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well. That's true. Catwoman's home is in Batman, though. And Ivy has never had an ongoing. Miniseries.
> 
> He has control because no one else who's writing cares enough to want control, I think. (And it's not just Cass - it's Steph, Tim, Basil, Azrael, and Batwing - heck, I'm pretty sure he still has a lot of control over Batwoman even though she does have her own ongoing.)
> 
> As for mentioning the engagement - just hang on for a bit. I'm personally hoping that it gets mentioned pretty soon in the new Fall of the Batmen arc.


So Tynion has control of Steph right now too? 

Meaning that she could be used in the group shot because her future won't be that affected where shouldn't be around OR because he has no plans for her? 

I mean, Steph appeared with the Bensons so that's a good thing right?

----------


## millernumber1

> So Tynion has control of Steph right now too? 
> 
> Meaning that she could be used in the group shot because her future won't be that affected where shouldn't be around OR because he has no plans for her? 
> 
> I mean, Steph appeared with the Bensons so that's a good thing right?


Oh, yes he does!

I would say that the reason Steph was in the group shot was because Tynion's plans for the future involve her being a permanent member. I mean, he deliberately changed the Titans of Tomorrow future to include both her and Anarky, so I think she's part of his own future for the family, and King wanted to honor that as well.

And even though she's gotten pushback because she's still pretty anti-vigilante in Birds of Prey, I do think it's good that Steph is showing up in crossovers.

----------


## TheCape

Maybe the reason of why this Tomorrow Tim isn't as crazy as the original (the one from Johns TT), is because Steph is alive, hell she was supposed to be death in the second time that they appeared too, so there is that. He is still pretty annoying thougth  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe the reason of why this Tomorrow Tim isn't as crazy as the original (the one from Johns TT), is because Steph is alive, hell she was supposed to be death in the second time that they appeared too, so there is that. He is still pretty annoying thougth .


I like to think Steph does help keep Tim from going all "I must be dark Batman". But we shall see!

----------


## adrikito

> Maybe the reason of why this Tomorrow Tim isn't as crazy as the original (the one from Johns TT), is because Steph is alive, hell she was supposed to be death in the second time that they appeared too, so there is that. He is still pretty annoying thougth .


I saw the original saga, I remember the cemetery that he showed his young version.. I like to see that Steph makes him more human.. He interrupted Future Kon for Steph..

----------


## shadowsgirl

Steph and Cass

----------


## adrikito

Old times:

batgirl stephanie brown cassandra cain barbara old times.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Old times:
> 
> batgirl stephanie brown cassandra cain barbara old times.jpg


Oooh, nice! Where's that from?

----------


## adrikito

> Oooh, nice! Where's that from?


One fanart..

I saw the preview of Detective Comics 970... 

Poor girl, she is really worried for his boyfriend..

----------


## Assam

> Old times:
> 
> batgirl stephanie brown cassandra cain barbara old times.jpg


"Old times"...except not at all.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> "Old times"...except not at all.


Lies! This clearly happened right after Birds of Prey #15, Batgirl #24, and Gates of Gotham #5!  :Wink:  (Or you could also say, just before Convergence: Batgirl and Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle.)

----------


## Assam

Deleted Post

----------


## adrikito

Yes, yes, yes, yes... Steph is in the team again..

detective comics 969 Stephanie Brown spoiler Cassandra Cain orphan.jpg

Or maybe he hates Spoiler mask.. For this he said.. no,no, no, no..

I doubt see Steph like in the begin of rebirth.. I was cheated for variants previously... 

STEPH MASK IS PURPLE NOW?  :Confused:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes, yes, yes, yes... Steph is in the team again..
> 
> detective comics 969 Stephanie Brown spoiler Cassandra Cain orphan.jpg
> 
> Or maybe he hates Spoiler mask.. For this he said.. no,no, no, no..
> 
> Maybe he hates saw the two females in the team with mask.. As Spiderman fan, despite I like see Steph hair, nothing against that..
> 
> STEPH MASK IS PURPLE?


Haha, we shall have to wait and see, I guess!

----------


## millernumber1

Well...

Steph is deciding whether to leave the team again. Which makes me sad, but is a logical progression from her current arc. I wish Tynion would actually get her to a place where she has achievable goals and has fun with being a hero again. While I still love Steph and root for her, this super angsty phase she's in is really hurting the fanbase.

----------


## adrikito

Seems that Steph is only here for this saga.. You remember that image of ARE YOU LEAVING US?(Steph to batwoman).. I think that for one change of plans we will never see this moment again..

Unfortunatelly I forgot Harper existence in this comic  :Mad:  Steph will be out again...   :Frown:   :Frown: 

I decided leave detective comics after Cass saga.. I am not interested in another saga like Tim Utopia..

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems that Steph is only here for this saga.. 
> 
> Unfortunatelly I forgot Harper existence in this comic  Steph will be out again...   
> 
> I decided leave detective comics after Cass saga.. I am not interested in another saga like Tim Utopia..


Well. Let's hope for good things. Let's hope Tim and Steph at least figure out how Steph can stay, even if they break up. I do not want to see Steph on her own again.

Harper...yeah. I'm still so irritated at the way she was inserted into the Steph and Cass friendship.

----------


## adrikito

> Well. Let's hope for good things. Let's hope Tim and Steph at least figure out how Steph can stay, even if they break up. I do not want to see Steph on her own again.
> 
> Harper...yeah. I'm still so irritated at the way she was inserted into the Steph and Cass friendship.


I am irritated too.. I read enough of Steph&Cass friendship for see this bad..

----------


## millernumber1

> I am irritated too.. I read enough of Steph&Cass friendship for see this bad.. However, I think that I heard that Harper is the best Steph friend too(or maybe I am wrong).. The bad is that DC will put Harper too if that dream of Steph and Cass serie happens..


Yup. I don't mind Bluebird as a character - I enjoyed her in Batman Eternal, not as much in Batman and Robin Eternal. But the way Tynion positioned her between Steph and Cass really, really annoys me.

----------


## adrikito

> Yup. I don't mind Bluebird as a character - I enjoyed her in Batman Eternal, not as much in Batman and Robin Eternal. But the way Tynion positioned her between Steph and Cass really, really annoys me.


The same will happen if someday we see one serie with STEPH and CASS.. She will be in middle..  Because I think that I heard that she is the "best friend" of Steph too..

----------


## millernumber1

> The same will happen if someday we see one serie with STEPH and CASS.. She will be in middle..  Because I think that I heard that she is the "best friend" of Steph too..


I would be really irritated if Tim were left out of a Steph and Cass series, especially if Harper were there, since Tim did a lot of training of Harper as well.

----------


## adrikito

> I would be really irritated if Tim were left out of a Steph and Cass series, especially if Harper were there, since Tim did a lot of training of Harper as well.


I didn´t know this... or I forget that..

----------


## millernumber1

> I didn´t know this... or I forget that..


It happened in Batman Eternal, and that was a very busy series with a lot to remember.  :Smile: 

But I really liked the Tim and Harper friendship.

----------


## Assam

I'd be perfectly fine with Harper in a book with Cass and Steph (Just the fact that Cass would have room to breathe and get consistent focus  and Steph could stop having Tynion chip away at her fanbase would be great) because I do like Harper's character, but she _really_ needs to stop keeping the others from interacting. 

And if you're throwing Tim in there, you may as well put in Duke as well so you can get your five color-coded teenagers with attitude.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd be perfectly fine with Harper in a book with Cass and Steph (Just the fact that Cass would have room to breathe and get consistent focus  and Steph could stop having Tynion chip away at her fanbase would be great) because I do like Harper's character, but she _really_ needs to stop keeping the others from interacting. 
> 
> And if you're throwing Tim in there, you may as well put in Duke as well so you can get your five color-coded teenagers with attitude.


I would really rather not include Duke, since he hasn't interacted with Harper, Steph, or Cass at all, and only interacted with Tim in the terrible Robin War crossover. At least the four in contention have established relationships.

----------


## Harpsikord

> And if you're throwing Tim in there, you may as well put in Duke as well so you can get your five color-coded teenagers with attitude.


Tim creates them all color-coded techno suits. Gotham Rangers.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tim creates them all color-coded techno suits. Gotham Rangers.


I know the Power Rangers are popular, but I never got into them, and this whole concept would really turn me off the series (similar to my negative reaction to the huge building/robot things in Night of the Monster Men).

----------


## Assam

> I know the Power Rangers are popular, but I never got into them, and this whole concept would really turn me off the series (similar to my negative reaction to the huge building/robot things in Night of the Monster Men).


I'm a MASSIVE Power Rangers fan (And was incredibly disappointed when the Bat-Zords didn't combine in the crossover) and always have been,so honestly I'd be down for it. Sure, I'd prefer a Cass book, a Cass/Steph book or a Cass/Tim book (One not written by Tynion), but it could be a really fun way to use and explore these characters. Well, assuming it took after the BEST of Power Rangers material, stuff like Time Force, RPM and the 2017 movie, which is seriously one of the best superhero movies ever made. 

But yeah, the five teens do have the colors of the original 5, even if you have to stretch it a bit for Steph.

----------


## adrikito

> It happened in Batman Eternal, and that was a very busy series with a lot to remember. 
> .


I was more focused in that era in learn about Steph.. Like in the next eternal in learn about Cass.

I forget things about my favorite characters(with the pass of years) is normal that I didn´t know about this..

----------


## millernumber1

> I was more focused in that era in learn about Steph.. Like in the next eternal in learn about Cass.
> 
> I forget things even about my favorite characters with the years, is normal that I didn´t know about this..


Well. I have also reread Batman Eternal about three and half times. I have a spreadsheet where I track all of the writers, artists, covers, character appearances, and plot details for every issue of both the first and second Eternal series (because I love Steph, and because I enjoyed them, and because it was helpful when I was doing my massive overhaul of the Steph wiki two years ago).

So there are some things I forget about Eternal, but I'd bet fewer than most people.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> I'd be perfectly fine with Harper in a book with Cass and Steph (Just the fact that Cass would have room to breathe and get consistent focus  and Steph could stop having Tynion chip away at her fanbase would be great) because I do like Harper's character, but she _really_ needs to stop keeping the others from interacting. 
> 
> And if you're throwing Tim in there, you may as well put in Duke as well so you can get your five color-coded teenagers with attitude.


After the last chapter I think that Steph needs dissapear during certain time, is better than this suffering.. All was better before Tim "death"..

hmmmmm... The Yellow Ranger is the leader of the Power Rangers, no? I heard about them but I never was interested.. I prefer even Harper as leader..

----------


## Assam

> hmmmmm... The Yellow Ranger is the leader of the Power Rangers, no? I heard about them but I never was interested.. I prefer even Harper as leader..


Not sure where you heard that.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Traditionally, the red ranger is the leader, but even then there are exceptions. In Time Force the pink ranger was the leader, in Mighty Morphin there were two white ranger leaders and there are other examples as well.

----------


## TheCape

Huh, i wonder who would be the rogue six ranger in this hypothetical situation.

----------


## Assam

> Huh, i wonder who would be the rogue six ranger in this hypothetical situation.


HA! 

Time displaced Helena Wayne?

----------


## adrikito

> Not sure where you heard that.  Traditionally, the red ranger is the leader, but even then there are exceptions. In Time Force the pink ranger was the leader, in Mighty Morphin there were two white ranger leaders and there are other examples as well.


I heard about the rangers not about the leader... Is the RED.. 

Nothing against Drake as leader.. Cass his right hand..

----------


## millernumber1

> HA! 
> 
> Time displaced Helena Wayne?


I'd much rather add Bertinelli. Cause she's probably second to Steph as my fave.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Nothing against Drake as leader.. Cass his right hand..


If this happened, he screwed the pooch (and it's Tim so he would) and Cass took over, this would be the second time he lost control of a team to someone named Cassandra. And I would find that hilarious.

----------


## Assam

> I'd much rather add Bertinelli. Cause she's probably second to Steph as my fave.


peacemaker.jpg

10characters

----------


## adrikito

> If this happened, he screwed the pooch (and it's Tim so he would) and Cass took over, this would be the second time he lost control of a team to someone named Cassandra. And I would find that hilarious.


HAHAHHAHA.. I remember that you mentioned that cass was leader of one team.. Was that time?

----------


## millernumber1

> peacemaker.jpg
> 
> 10characters


OOOOOH. BETTER THOUGHT: Charlie!




> HAHAHHAHA.. I remember that you mentioned that cass was leader of one team.. Was that time?


No, Cass led the Outsiders. Tim lost the Teen Titans to Cassie Sandsmark, Wonder Girl.

----------


## Assam

> HAHAHHAHA.. I remember that you mentioned that cass was leader of one team.. Was that time?


Cass briefly lead the Outsiders but that's not what I was referring to.

In Young Justice, Tim's secret keeping ended up resulting in him leaving the team for a time. When he came back, they decided to hold an election for who the leader should be (In real life fans got to vote) and Cassandra Sandsmark (Wonder Girl) won, also being the option that made the most sense in universe, as she'd proven to be better at the job than Tim (and also Kon and Ray who were also candidates)

----------


## adrikito

> OOOOOH. BETTER THOUGHT: Charlie!
> 
> No, Cass led the Outsiders. Tim lost the Teen Titans to Cassie Sandsmark, Wonder Girl.


Oh, I understand now this.. Another Cass.

I should see the outsiders.

----------


## Assam

> I should see the outsiders.


It's decent stuff and I know Miller likes it more than I do.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, I understand now this.. Another Cass.
> 
> I should see the outsiders.


I recommend the first 10 issues. 11-13 are okay (that's where Cass became leader), but they made some story choices when Dixon was fired from the book that I think were much weaker than the choices made in the first 10 issues.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's decent stuff and I know Miller likes it more than I do.


Haha. Got me! I really, really enjoy those first ten issues. It's just a really good team book. And really solid art!

----------


## Assam

> OOOOOH. BETTER THOUGHT: Charlie!


Poifect! She even fits the bill for being ludicrously more powerful than the rest of the team.

----------


## millernumber1

> Poifect! She even fits the bill for being ludicrously more powerful than the rest of the team.


There we go! Steph, Cass, Tim, Charlie, and Harper!

----------


## Assam

> There we go! Steph, Cass, Tim, Charlie, and Harper!


We were talking about for the sixth ranger,dude. 

Did you suddenly turn on Duke? I thought you were pretty neutral.

----------


## millernumber1

> We were talking about for the sixth ranger,dude. 
> 
> Did you suddenly turn on Duke? I thought you were pretty neutral.


I was neutral until All Star Batman #1. "Robin doesn't need Batman" "Batman doesn't need Robin" would have soured me on Steph as Robin, let alone someone who still didn't have his own foundational status quo yet.

So yeah, I'm still open to him being a good character, but right now, really, really bitter about the way Snyder has chosen to write him.

----------


## TheCape

My feelings toward Duke are always beetween indifference and sligth interest, saw the first few panels for his mini, at the very least looks decent.

----------


## millernumber1

> My feelings toward Duke are always beetween indifference and sligth interest, saw the first few panels for his mini, at the very least looks decent.


Cully Hamner is one of the best in the business. I'm interested in Duke's miniseries ONLY because of him. Snyder did a really hardcore salt-the-earth on my feelings towards Duke.

(Though I'm saying it now: If Steph is left out of the Batfamily in this miniseries, as the previews seem to indicate, that's going to make the situation a lot worse. Whereas Assam probably has a leg up since we know Cass will be appearing.)

----------


## Assam

I remain neutral on Duke. For every kinda good moment he has, there's something like "Batman doesn't need Robin"  or 'getting to wear the Bat' or 'getting included with the BatFamily more often than Cass' which really pisses me off. 




> (Though I'm saying it now: If Steph is left out of the Batfamily in this miniseries, as the previews seem to indicate, that's going to make the situation a lot worse.


We'll see how it goes down (I've seen some people speculating the dinner scene is a dream sequence) but if Steph is just outright excluded...well I'd say blame Tynion since he's the one who separated her from the BatFam and this was originally supposed to come out before her return, but the additional exclusions of Basil and JPV kinda ruin that theory.

----------


## adrikito

> There we go! Steph, Cass, Tim, Charlie, and Harper!


Charlie.... 

Oh, I remember her.. Is that redhead that worked for Oracle.. She was like one barbara niece(in appearance)..

After King annual, I think that she would be replaced by Carrie..

----------


## millernumber1

> I remain neutral on Duke. For every kinda good moment he has, there's something like "Batman doesn't need Robin"  or 'getting to wear the Bat' or 'getting included with the BatFamily more often than Cass' which really pisses me off. 
> 
> We'll see how it goes down (I've seen some people speculating the dinner scene is a dream sequence) but if Steph is just outright excluded...well I'd say blame Tynion since he's the one who separated her from the BatFam and this was originally supposed to come out before her return, but the additional exclusions of Basil and JPV kinda ruin that theory.


Yeah. I have hope that it's just a few panels, so we haven't seen everything, but...it's a pretty packed scene, and so Steph feels like a deliberate exclusion at this point.

Oh, man, I hadn't even thought about Duke wearing the Bat. That is INFURIATING. RAAAAAAAAA.

----------


## millernumber1

> Charlie.... 
> 
> Oh, I remember her.. Is that redhead that worked for Oracle.. She was like one barbara niece(in appearance)..


Her code name is Misfit. She showed up in Batgirl #34 in the n52, and hasn't popped up since then. But in the original Simone/McKeever/Bedard Birds of Prey run (#56-end), she was a big part of the team. And I loved her! (Probably for very similar reasons I love Steph - scrappy, cheerful, determined to do the right thing, full of flaws but not a cynical anti-hero.)

----------


## TheCape

Strangely enougth, i still like Duke more than Luke Fox, even if not by much. David Zavimbe is still 10 the characther than those 2 combined.

----------


## millernumber1

> Strangely enougth, i still like Duke more than Luke Fox, even if not by much. David Zavimbe is still 10 the characther than those 2 combined.


I tried Batwing when the n52 started, and it didn't work for me (too heavily reliant on graphic violence - seemed to present too much of a problem for Batwing to even remotely confront or solve it, and I don't like being entertained by graphic violence). When Luke was given the title, I read through it, and didn't enjoy it a ton, but I love the Fox family a lot (largely because of Red Robin and Tam), so I really like Luke being Batwing and expanding the roster in that direction. I'm kinda bummed that Bad Blood has a more interested backstory (for me, at least) for Luke than the comics, but Luke is still one of my favorite new additions to the Batfam in the n52.

But I think I'm probably one of the only ones. Well. Me and Tynion.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> Strangely enougth, i still like Duke more than Luke Fox, even if not by much. David Zavimbe is still 10 the characther than those 2 combined.


Is a shame that I don´t know the original batwing... Despite I know about one Batwing comic..

But maybe is the best.. Because he is not here..

----------


## Assam

> Strangely enougth, i still like Duke more than Luke Fox, even if not by much. David Zavimbe is still 10 the characther than those 2 combined.


I really do need to try David's book some time.

----------


## millernumber1

> I really do need to try David's book some time.


There's also the problem for me that it was Luke who showed up in Batman Eternal, when I got back into comics, so it's Luke that I really associated with Steph and therefore awesome.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> I really do need to try David's book some time.


CONGRATULATIONS FOR 9000th POSTS..  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

Finally, with the image size I tried to put this image in different sizes many times:

batgirl__stephanie_brown.jpg

Beautiful cover.. no?

https://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgi...rown-719590008

I saw another image with Supergirl too..

----------


## millernumber1

> Finally, with the image size I tried to put this image in different sizes many times:
> 
> batgirl__stephanie_brown.jpg
> 
> Beautiful cover.. no?
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgi...rown-719590008
> 
> I saw another image with Supergirl too..


Nice! I always live seeing all the Steph s!

----------


## Frontier

> Finally, with the image size I tried to put this image in different sizes many times:
> 
> Attachment 59496
> 
> Beautiful cover.. no?
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgi...rown-719590008
> 
> I saw another image with Supergirl too..


Love it  :Big Grin: .

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## millernumber1

> 


Classic. I've always been curious about who did this animation.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Classic. I've always been curious about who did this animation.


I miss the Batfamily's real history.  :Frown:  Tim's regained his original origin, but Steph and Cass are stuck with the New52 nonsense for now. I just don't understand why Babs is the only one who can be Batgirl. Steph and Cass lost their entire history, just like Tim. We still don't know what canon or not, it's so damn frustrating. It's like two decades of character build-up was for nothing.

----------


## millernumber1

> I miss the Batfamily's real history.  Tim's regained his original origin, but Steph and Cass are stuck with the New52 nonsense for now. I just don't understand why Babs is the only one who can be Batgirl. Steph and Cass lost their entire history, just like Tim. We still don't know what canon or not, it's so damn frustrating. It's like two decades of character build-up was for nothing.


Well, I personally mostly like Steph's new history. But I do miss her history with Tim and Cass a lot.

We shall see what the future has in store for Steph, though I'm a bit worried because solicits still don't show any sign of Steph staying with the Knights.

----------


## Assam

> Classic. I've always been curious about who did this animation.


Steven Moye: 1/ Bryan Q. Miller: 0 




> We shall see what the future has in store for Steph, though I'm a bit worried because solicits still don't show any sign of Steph staying with the Knights.


Well it doesn't look like anyone is staying with the Knights but we'll have to see if she's part of the team when they come back together. Still, I wonder how long it'll be before she gets focus that doesn't revolve around Tim in some way. Or how long it'll be before Tynion stops writing her in a way that makes a lot of the fanbase, and recently me, hate her. Probably around the same time _Luke_ gets to take center stage. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it doesn't look like anyone is staying with the Knights but we'll have to see if she's part of the team when they come back together. Still, I wonder how long it'll be before she gets focus that doesn't revolve around Tim in some way. Or how long it'll be before Tynion stops writing her in a way that makes a lot of the fanbase, and recently me, hate her. Probably around the same time _Luke_ gets to take center stage.


Yeah. I will still defend Steph's arc in Tynion's hands, but I am really curious if he knows that he's not doing her any favors right now in terms of popularity.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Well, I personally mostly like Steph's new history. But I do miss her history with Tim and Cass a lot.
> 
> We shall see what the future has in store for Steph, though I'm a bit worried because solicits still don't show any sign of Steph staying with the Knights.


I don't like anything New52 related. It's garbage. They just reintroduced characters with lame new origins and unnecessary changes. All three kids need their own solo series. They can be fixed in good hands. I love when they interact with each other, but they all need a lot of focus in solo stories, too.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't like anything New52 related. It's garbage. They just reintroduced characters with lame new origins and unnecessary changes. All three kids need their own solo series. They can be fixed in good hands. I love when they interact with each other, but they all need a lot of focus in solo stories, too.


I personally want a Steph, Tim, and Cass team-up series, because that has the chance of restoring their relationships and history more than solo series might. But I wouldn't say no to a Steph and a Cass and a Tim solo series set as well.  :Smile: 

The n52 was pretty trash. But I think there were some things that are worthwhile about it. But as a whole, I do agree that it's just not very good.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I personally want a Steph, Tim, and Cass team-up series, because that has the chance of restoring their relationships and history more than solo series might. But I wouldn't say no to a Steph and a Cass and a Tim solo series set as well. 
> 
> The n52 was pretty trash. But I think there were some things that are worthwhile about it. But as a whole, I do agree that it's just not very good.


Yeah, we need a team-up book, plus 3 solo series. We all know it's not going to happen, but we can dream, right?  :Big Grin: 

This looks like so much fun. Tim is following Steph like a well trained puppy.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, we need a team-up book, plus 3 solo series. We all know it's not going to happen, but we can dream, right?
> 
> This looks like so much fun. Tim is following Steph like a well trained puppy.


There's room in this fandom for hope, eh?  :Wink: 

I wish you could get that Steph minifigure. Or really any action figures. I already have the Batgirl and Spoiler HeroClix versions of Steph, but the 3.75" figure is still way too expensive for me to justify buying it.

----------


## Assam

> I don't like anything New52 related. It's garbage. They just reintroduced characters with lame new origins and unnecessary changes.


As far as the Bat Franchise, and 99% of other things, go, I completely agree. 




> All three kids need their own solo series.


Is it wrong to say that I don't think that's feasible, even in an ideal world? Tim's fanbase is built in, he's one of those characters who can continuously have bad appearances and keep his whole fanbase because he's pretty much never stopped appearing in books since 1989 and he could easily stay steady in the mid 20,000's I think. Cass still has a lot of her cult fans from the old days and a plethora of new fans through 'Tec. Depending on the name of the book and promotion, I think she could stabilize anywhere in the 20,000's. Steph is the one who I think would really need to be paired up with one, or both of them, like the old days. Because Tynion not only managed to make new readers hate her, but because of where he's taking his inspiration from for her along with his approach to it, he's pissed off the diehard Stephgirl fans. I'm really not sure she could sell. 




> I personally want a Steph, Tim, and Cass team-up series


It's probably the best idea in the long-run in terms of sales and restoring their relationships, but it couldn't be Tynion writing and, like with the idea of a 'Batgirls' book, you'd need someone who cares about these characters equally and would give them all time to shine and develop.

----------


## millernumber1

> Is it wrong to say that I don't think that's feasible? Tim's fanbase is built in, he's one of those characters who can continuously have bad appearances and keep his whole fanbase because he's pretty much never stopped appearing in books since 1989 and he could easily stay steady in the mid 20,000's I think. Cass still has a lot of her cult fans from the old days and a plethora of new fans through 'Tec. Depending on the name of the book and promotion, I think she could stabilize anywhere in the 20,000's. Steph is the one who I think would really need to be paired up with one, or both of them, like the old days. Because Tynion not only managed to make new readers hate her, but because of where he's taking his inspiration from for her along with his approach to it, he's pissed off the diehard Stephgirl fans. I'm really not sure she could sell. 
> 
> It's probably the best idea in the long-run in terms of sales and restoring their relationships, but it couldn't be Tynion writing and, like with the idea of a 'Batgirls' book, you'd need someone who cares about these characters equally and would give them all time to shine and develop.


I think you're pretty right in terms of the market for three solos. Sadly.  I still think Tynion's resolution to his arcs could be satisfying, but it's not working super well in terms of bringing the fanbase on board with the week-to-week.

----------


## adrikito

> Yeah, we need a team-up book, plus 3 solo series. We all know it's not going to happen, but we can dream, right? 
> 
> This looks like so much fun. Tim is following Steph like a well trained puppy.


I knew about this.. But this is the first time that I saw her in LEGO.. THANKS..

----------


## Caivu

Steph has been voted January's Character of the Month on r/DCComics!

CotM.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> steph has been voted january's character of the month on r/dccomics!
> 
> Attachment 60136


good choice, reddit..

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Steph has been voted January's Character of the Month on r/DCComics!
> 
> Attachment 60136


Haha, love that they used the Spoiler alert on the title

----------


## Caivu

By Royal Dunlap:

Screenshot_20171231-112518.jpg

----------


## Assam

I think the blue actually works really well for Steph there.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I think the blue actually works really well for Steph there.


Agreed  :Smile: .

----------


## adrikito

> by royal dunlap:
> 
> Screenshot_20171231-112518.jpg


wow.....




> I think the blue actually works really well for Steph there.


You are right..

----------


## millernumber1

Sorry I've been gone so much - the holidays were pretty full. But I'm ramping back up to the Steph love! Editing the wiki, starting to post more here, all the good Steph stuff!

The covers for the first and last issues of Fall of the Batmen by Guillem March are pretty awesome, and I hope that they're not the last time we see Steph on a cover or part of the team in the near future!

Tec 969 cover.jpg

Tec 973 cover.jpg

----------


## adrikito

I was thinking in put here POSITIVE images of Steph... 


But you returned.. Maybe you read my mind..

----------


## millernumber1

> I was thinking in put here POSITIVE images of Steph... But you returned..


You should! I love the images you post!

----------


## adrikito

> you should! I love the images you post!


thanks..

batgirl_selfie_stephanie brown cassandra cain.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> thanks..
> 
> batgirl_selfie_stephanie brown cassandra cain.jpg


Yeah! That's what I'm talking about! Who did that one?

----------


## adrikito

> Yeah! That's what I'm talking about! Who did that one?


I saw this in deviantart...

https://skarchomp.deviantart.com/art...lfie-535592916

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw this in deviantart...
> 
> https://skarchomp.deviantart.com/art...lfie-535592916


Awesomesauce! Man, I miss that girl as Batgirl. Can't wait for volume 2 of her run in March!

----------


## Assam

New art by Snowpie2 on Tumblr. It's...something.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

timXsteph.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> New art by Snowpie2 on Tumblr. It's...something. 
> 
> timXsteph.jpg


Something BEAUTIFUL!!!

----------


## Assam

> Something BEAUTIFUL!!!


Dick: "Do I even want to know why you three are watching this?" 

Jason: "Blackmail."

Cass: "Steph." 

Damian: "_Research_."

----------


## millernumber1

> Dick: "Do I even want to know why you three are watching this?" 
> 
> Jason: "Blackmail."
> 
> Cass: "Steph." 
> 
> Damian: "_Research_."


Haha, so true.

----------


## Sannom

It reminds me of the "Tim's virtue must be in danger" segment of this :

https://orig00.deviantart.net/71b5/f...az-d3g0pwn.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> It reminds me of the "Tim's virtue must be in danger" segment of this :
> 
> https://orig00.deviantart.net/71b5/f...az-d3g0pwn.jpg


I love that collection of doodles.  :Smile: 

Speaking of which, I'm really sad that it doesn't seem like Tim and Steph are going to talk out their differences any time soon. I mean, maybe we'll get some in the aftermath of Fall of the Batmen, but it just feels so sad right now for TimSteph shippers (and Steph fans in general, since she's still so angry and not on board with being a hero).

----------


## adrikito

> New art by Snowpie2 on Tumblr. It's...something. 
> 
> Attachment 60603


Even Cass is interested in this..

----------


## millernumber1

> Even Cass is interested in this..


Everyone should!  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Speaking of which, I'm really sad that it doesn't seem like Tim and Steph are going to talk out their differences any time soon. I mean, maybe we'll get some in the aftermath of Fall of the Batmen, but it just feels so sad right now for TimSteph shippers (and Steph fans in general, since she's still so angry and not on board with being a hero).


And the longer this goes on, the more fans she could lose.  :Frown:  And I'd been saying last year that Steph wouldn't get focus (separate from Tim) again until the Summer at the earliest, but now it's looking like it won't even happen this year at all. Batmen Eternal is lasting till May, Cass's arc will likely come after, Luke will maybe finally get an arc if the poor guy is lucky and then there's Bette and Harper possibly coming into play, all while Tim and Kate continue to get focus as well because Tynion. 




> Even Cass is interested in this..


Duh. Of course she would be.

----------


## millernumber1

If Harper comes in and is "cooler" than Steph I will hit the roof.

----------


## Katana500

Im just curious do most Steph fans ship her with Tim?  :Smile: 

Like would most people here be upset if they just ended the relationship?

----------


## Assam

> If Harper comes in and is "cooler" than Steph I will hit the roof.


If Harper talks to Cass or Steph again before they talk to each other, I'll hit the roof. 




> Im just curious do most Steph fans ship her with Tim? ?


Many do. Some don't. Me personally, I ship her with Cass, but I wouldn't call that an OTP these days as CassXBrenda has really grown on me.

----------


## Katana500

Personally im not such a fan of Tim and Steph together. I kinda think in the long run it will harm her as a character. But then i guess im not the biggest Tim fan so im not sure really  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Personally im not such a fan of Tim and Steph together. I kinda think in the long run it will harm her as a character. But then i guess im not the biggest Tim fan so im not sure really


My dislike of the relationship stems from my feeling that it isn't healthy. That said, I do see what you mean as well. In 'Tec, her entire character revolves around Tim. This annoys both Steph fans who want her to be independent, and there are also Tim fans who hate that their favorite character is dating her because of how awfully she's been portrayed in 'Tec.

----------


## millernumber1

> And the longer this goes on, the more fans she could lose.  And I'd been saying last year that Steph wouldn't get focus (separate from Tim) again until the Summer at the earliest, but now it's looking like it won't even happen this year at all. Batmen Eternal is lasting till May, Cass's arc will likely come after, Luke will maybe finally get an arc if the poor guy is lucky and then there's Bette and Harper possibly coming into play, all while Tim and Kate continue to get focus as well because Tynion.


I would LOVE a Luke arc (especially if we get Tam and NOT Tiffany). I personally think that there's a chance that Batmen Eternal will have a strong Cass element. Or maybe I'm just being hopeful.  :Smile: 

I think the whole Steph reuniting with Tim and then screwing up with Lonnie and her phone being cloned was supposed to be a focus on Steph. Which...wasn't really that effective. I need more, Tynion!




> Im just curious do most Steph fans ship her with Tim? 
> 
> Like would most people here be upset if they just ended the relationship?


I would be upset if they ended it badly and it kicked Steph out of the book. I at least want them to be friends, even though I'm a die hard TimSteph shipper.




> If Harper talks to Cass or Steph again before they talk to each other, I'll hit the roof.


Rrrrrr. We'll be sitting with our heads stuck in the roof together.




> My dislike of the relationship stems from my feeling that it isn't healthy. That said, I do see what you mean as well. In 'Tec, her entire character revolves around Tim. This annoys both Steph fans who want her to be independent, and there are also Tim fans who hate that their favorite character is dating her because of how awfully she's been portrayed in 'Tec.


There's a large contingent of Steph fans who think Tim is bad. I really like Steph and Tim together, but I don't think they're perfect. However, it really irritates me when people don't even acknowledge that Tim is important to Steph.

----------


## Chickfighter

I think the downside for fans of Steph who aren't particularly fans of Tim, or more specifically of making that relationship the centerpiece of Steph's character, is that they feel that they've already been there done that in the old universe and as a resolution Steph had already moved on to have more to her than that.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think the downside for fans of Steph who aren't particularly fans of Tim, or more specifically of making that relationship the centerpiece of Steph's character, is that they feel that they've already been there done that in the old universe and as a resolution Steph had already moved on to have more to her than that.


It has been done, but they never gave them a really solid resolution. BQM tried to do a little with Batgirl #8, but it was more a "put them in a better place than Robin/Red Robin/Gotham Gazette left them" rather than "resolve issues." And much as I think Convergence: Batgirl had some good things about it, it definitely wasn't a great resolution, because they never actually dealt with their issues, just got back together.

I'd also argue that Dixon and Lewis's Steph wasn't just a Tim love interest. That was a large part of her character, but she had her own goals and even plotlines.

Lastly, I do think Steph had gained so much more than being Tim's girlfriend as Batgirl, but I think keeping them apart almost completely was a loss that wasn't necessary.

----------


## adrikito

> Im just curious do most Steph fans ship her with Tim? 
> 
> Like would most people here be upset if they just ended the relationship?





> Personally im not such a fan of Tim and Steph together. I kinda think in the long run it will harm her as a character. But then i guess im not the biggest Tim fan so im not sure really


I am not Tim fan.. I don´t want Steph with him, less now.... Detective Comics ruined her in the same moment of Tim "death"..  :Mad:  
*
I prefer CassxSteph, one lesbian couple.. Unlike with StephxTim, I respect both characters, I would be happier with this..*  

And now he is making plans with one ending Tomorrow Batman(even if he says the opposite).. With that future, I think that even Jason can be better Batman than him..

I only want more Steph and for this reason I accept this.. But now... STEPH life is a disaster..  :Mad:

----------


## adrikito

> If Harper comes in and is "cooler" than Steph I will hit the roof.


In that case..... Maybe I will hate her more than D..ke...  :Mad: 

He has destroyed the best friendship of detective comics(Cass and Karlo), Steph character and his favorite(Tim).. I hope not see the opposite with Harper..

----------


## millernumber1

> I am not Tim fan.. I don´t want Steph with him, less now.... Detective Comics ruined her in the same moment of Tim "death"..  
> *
> I prefer CassxSteph, one lesbian couple.. Unlike with StephxTim, I respect both characters, I would be happier with this..*  
> 
> And now he is making plans with one ending Tomorrow Batman(even if he says the opposite).. With that future, I think that even Jason can be better Batman than him..
> 
> I only want more Steph and for this reason I accept this.. But now... STEPH life is a disaster..


I think the thing is that Tim can get better - we just need the plot to slow down a bit and have him and Steph actually talk, instead of him not sleeping and having crazy plans, and her being all "Batman is terrible." Need talking, and reconciliation!

There's so much in the air right now, I have a difficult time saying that we have a real status quo.

----------


## Assam

> There's so much in the air right now, I have a difficult time saying that we have a real status quo.


We're definitely in a state of flux right now, but its one that has me longing for the status quo that was abandoned. Batmen Eternal will presumably be setting up the next status quo and we're just left to speculate how that will turn out for the next few months.I have low expectations.

----------


## millernumber1

> We're definitely in a state of flux right now, but its one that has me longing for the status quo that was abandoned. Batmen Eternal will presumably be setting up the next status quo and we're just left to speculate how that will turn out for the next few months.I have low expectations.


I really hope we're getting a new status quo soon. It's been almost 9 issues since A Lonely Place of Living upended the status quo, and I'm feeling antsy...  :Smile:

----------


## Chickfighter

> It has been done, but they never gave them a really solid resolution. BQM tried to do a little with Batgirl #8, but it was more a "put them in a better place than Robin/Red Robin/Gotham Gazette left them" rather than "resolve issues." And much as I think Convergence: Batgirl had some good things about it, it definitely wasn't a great resolution, because they never actually dealt with their issues, just got back together.
> 
> I'd also argue that Dixon and Lewis's Steph wasn't just a Tim love interest. That was a large part of her character, but she had her own goals and even plotlines.
> 
> Lastly, I do think Steph had gained so much more than being Tim's girlfriend as Batgirl, but I think keeping them apart almost completely was a loss that wasn't necessary.


Fair enough. I'm just saying I've seen the Tim/Steph relationship attempted enough times to have greatly diminished interest in it. If Steph Batgirl had continued I was much more interested in Steph and Cass revisiting their friendship and developing that.

----------


## millernumber1

> Fair enough. I'm just saying I've seen the Tim/Steph relationship attempted enough times to have greatly diminished interest in it. If Steph Batgirl had continued I was much more interested in Steph and Cass revisiting their friendship and developing that.


I totally agree that it's been tried a lot. (As a TimSteph shipper, I think it's because they work really well together. But I don't think it has to be the focus of their characters, just part of their status quo.) And I don't think that Steph  and Cass reuniting necessarily precludes her also rebuilding her relationship with Tim. I wanted both, and think fans of Steph, Cass, and Tim deserved both, considered all three character's history.

I'm really curious why FabNic included Steph and Cass in Red Robin, but after that one Red Robin crossover, BQM never really explored any of that, despite spending a lot of time (and fun) on guest stars like Klarion, Supergirl, Grey Ghost, Squire (though that one was because of Batman Inc), and the Super-Girl-Team-Up.

----------


## Chickfighter

> I totally agree that it's been tried a lot. (As a TimSteph shipper, I think it's because they work really well together. But I don't think it has to be the focus of their characters, just part of their status quo.) And I don't think that Steph  and Cass reuniting necessarily precludes her also rebuilding her relationship with Tim. I wanted both, and think fans of Steph, Cass, and Tim deserved both, considered all three character's history.
> 
> I'm really curious why FabNic included Steph and Cass in Red Robin, but after that one Red Robin crossover, BQM never really explored any of that, despite spending a lot of time (and fun) on guest stars like Klarion, Supergirl, Grey Ghost, Squire (though that one was because of Batman Inc), and the Super-Girl-Team-Up.


Good question. My guess would be that if the series had continued Miller would have explored the relationship with Cass more. I suspect, either through choice or editorial fiat, BQM was deliberately staying away from bringing in Cass because of all the animosity that was in the air at the time between character fan bases.

----------


## millernumber1

> Good question. My guess would be that if the series had continued Miller would have explored the relationship with Cass more. I suspect, either through choice or editorial fiat, BQM was deliberately staying away from bringing in Cass because of all the animosity that was in the air at the time between character fan bases.


I know the Cass fan base will disagree with me about this, but I think that however clumsily her exit was handled, if DC wanted Steph to succeed as Batgirl, Cass could not have had a large role in the first year of the title, since it wouldn't give enough space for Steph to be the main character and also use Cass intelligently. I don't know what happened after we discovered Cass was Black Bat in Batman Inc 6, but it seems like that would be a relationship for further exploration. I wonder if FabNic using her made editorial kind of make it difficult for other teams to use her. Though the book was already juggling a lot if characters that editorial was making it really hard to use - Wendy, Bans - as part of the status quo.

----------


## Dataweaver

The last issue of Steph's Batgirl series included a series of hallucinations that she experienced, most of which were illustrations of stories the writer had intended to tell before the N52 reboot cut everything short. One involved a time travel story where Stephanie ended up teaming up with Babs back in her Batgirl days and with Cass back in _her_ Batgirl days. I could see that being followed up by Stephanie and Cass reconnecting in the present, at least for an adventure; but I really can't picture Cass becoming part of Stephanie's supporting cast.

----------


## millernumber1

> The last issue of Steph's Batgirl series included a series of hallucinations that she experienced, most of which were illustrations of stories the writer had intended to tell before the N52 reboot cut everything short. One involved a time travel story where Stephanie ended up teaming up with Babs back in her Batgirl days and with Cass back in _her_ Batgirl days. I could see that being followed up by Stephanie and Cass reconnecting in the present, at least for an adventure; but I really can't picture Cass becoming party of Stephanie's supporting cast.


I think that is a solid analysis. I think she could become a regular guest star like Supergirl, though.

----------


## Assam

> I know the Cass fan base will disagree with me about this, but I think that however clumsily her exit was handled, if DC wanted Steph to succeed as Batgirl, Cass could not have had a large role in the first year of the title, since it wouldn't give enough space for Steph to be the main character and also use Cass intelligently.


So which leg do you want broken first?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But no, I disagree with this. I outlined how I would have done it awhile ago if you recall, and I still think that would have been a brilliant way to go about it. (There is one change I'd make though.) There's no denying that Miller's methods worked in terms of allowing Steph to shine and growing her a fanbase. But that doesn't change the fact that what we saw ended up turning the relationship between the two previously very friendly fanbases into a quite toxic one. There are still plenty of Cass fans who hate Steph for taking the mantle, even today and even for me, the treatment of Cass is what keeps me from loving Steph's book. 




> I don't know what happened after we discovered Cass was Black Bat in Batman Inc 6, but it seems like that would be a relationship for further exploration. I wonder if FabNic using her made editorial kind of make it difficult for other teams to use her. Though the book was already juggling a lot if characters that editorial was making it really hard to use - Wendy, Bans - as part of the status quo.


I think the order of events goes something like this: Editorial kicks Cass out of the Batgirl suit using the deliberately sabotaged Vol. 2 as an excuse. Steph's book starts. Morrison gets dibs on using her in Inc. Simone is denied using her in BoP because of Morrison's dibs. With her new Morrison given identity in place, FabNic gets permission to use her in Red Robin.




> but I really can't picture Cass becoming part of Stephanie's supporting cast.


In the outline I refereed to,  Cass would be a part of the book for about 3/4ths of a year before going to be Tim's co-star in Red Robin, having occasional appearances in Batgirl, thus allowing for a smooth transition. 




> I think that is a solid analysis. I think she could become a regular guest star like Supergirl, though.


I wonder how much of my hatred of Kara comes from her appearances in Batgirl...not relevant right now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> I wonder how much of my hatred of Kara comes from her appearances in Batgirl...not relevant right now.


But it was a fun Kara guest-spot though  :Smile: .

----------


## Dataweaver

> In the outline I referred to *(I can try and track it down if you'd like)* Cass would be a part of the book for about 3/4ths of a year before going to be Tim's co-star in Red Robin, having occasional appearances in Batgirl.


If you would be so kind…

----------


## Assam

> But it was a fun Kara guest-spot though .


But seeing Steph act like she was her best friend at a time where it seemed like she didn't give half a f**k about her actual best friend? That doesn't get a pass from me. 




> If you would be so kind…


Here it is...I got kind of into it:  

 "Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with: 

Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore. 

Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.

Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.

Issue 4 would be a fun romp with the newly named team and highlight some new toys and skills that Steph is rocking. However, we'd also see that something doesn't feel right to Cass, happy as she is for Steph. Meanwhile, Babs would have tracked down Tim, who would tell her that he's not coming home until he proves that Bruce is still alive. And because of the state he was in at the time (And the fact that he's...Tim) he wouldn't be the most polite about it.

Issues 5 and 6 would have Team Batgirl team up with the new Batman and Robin. Babs, Cass, Steph, Dick and Damian have still never all been in the same room together, and dang it, I would make the most of those dynamics here. It would mostly just be a fun two parter taking full advantage of all the rich relationships that could be built there, but towards the end, there would be the scene that sets up the final issue of the opening arc: Cass would talk to Dick about what leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing meant to him and the two would have a nice bonding moment, maybe even bringing up how much they both lost in Bludhaven. (Remember, I may think Dick himself is a tool, but I love how he interacts with plenty of characters.) At the end, Babs would tell everyone about how she was recently in contact with Tim and how he's unable to let go of the idea that Bruce is still alive.

This would take us to #7, which would be Cass's departure. Steph is complaining to Babs how she should let her just go kick Tim's butt and bring him home, but there's an alert. Team Batgirl is about to spring into action, but Cass says she wants to go alone. They're confused but they go along with it, Cass arriving at the site...and finding Shiva. Rather than fight for the umpteenth time (There's no point. Shiva knows she won't kill her), they'd talk, the themes of which harkening back to the Death Wish arc. Shiva would even learn that despite him being gone now, Cass was adopted by Batman. And Shiva would actually be happy for her, with even after everything Slade did to her, and despite what she was intended to be, she was still able to continue on and forge her own destiny. Those last few words specifically echoing what Dick had told her in the previous issue. Before Shiva goes (The reason she'd shown up at all WAS just to get Cass's attention having heard about the Slade fiasco) we'd get one more echo to the end of Cass's solo as Cass asks "Will you ever stop?" And to reflect how times are changing through the Batverse and everyone is growing, she'd give a simple "Perhaps." 

Steph is getting antsy, wondering where Cass is, and off-panel, we'd see Cass say, "Back." Through some casual banter, one of them would refer to Cass as 'Batgirl'. To which Cass would say, "No." Cue full splash page of Cass in her new costume, revealing her new name which would NOT be Black Bat. Steph and Babs are confused, and Cass explains (Through fewer words than I'm using here), that Batgirl was the first name she ever knew. And being Batgirl is what she needed. A chance to do good to make up for what she did as a child and a chance to become part of a family. But things have changed. She knows she's a good person, while still as dedicated as ever, and she IS part of a family. Batgirl used to be who she was. Now she is Cassandra Cain-Wayne, and anything else is just codename. And the man who made all this possible for her? She can't believe he's gone either. The Bat is what she fights for, but she still loves her dad. And it turns out she's never actually believed he was gone, but unlike Tim, she had no idea where to even start looking. Cass tells Steph that the Batgirl name is now her's alone to honor, and gets Tim's current location from Babs, saying she wants to help Tim on his search, adding on that she's also worried about what being alone is doing to him, knowing full well how damaging isolation can be. The other two argue against this, but her mind is made up. She bids both Steph and Babs a tearful farewell, including a peck on the cheek for Steph, promising that when she comes back, it'll be with both Tim and Bruce. The final page would be a collage of the most important moments in Cass's life, and the most important people in it. 

From there, she'd act as Tim's co-star in Red Robin, while Steph and Babs form what will be their status quo in Batgirl. 

And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion."

----------


## Frontier

> But seeing Steph act like she was her best friend at a time where it seemed like she didn't give half a f**k about her actual best friend? That doesn't get a pass from me.


It did seem kind of random to see Steph and Kara acting so close, but I didn't think they were acting like Kara was Steph's best friend beyond acknowledging the tradition of Supergirl being Batgirl's best friend.

----------


## millernumber1

> So which leg do you want broken first? 
> 
> But no, I disagree with this. I outlined how I would have done it awhile ago if you recall, and I still think that would have been a brilliant way to go about it. (There is one change I'd make though.) There's no denying that Miller's methods worked in terms of allowing Steph to shine and growing her a fanbase. But that doesn't change the fact that what we saw ended up turning the relationship between the two previously very friendly fanbases into a quite toxic one. There are still plenty of Cass fans who hate Steph for taking the mantle, even today and even for me, the treatment of Cass is what keeps me from loving Steph's book. 
> 
> I think the order of events goes something like this: Editorial kicks Cass out of the Batgirl suit using the deliberately sabotaged Vol. 2 as an excuse. Steph's book starts. Morrison gets dibs on using her in Inc. Simone is denied using her in BoP because of Morrison's dibs. With her new Morrison given identity in place, FabNic gets permission to use her in Red Robin.
> 
> In the outline I refereed to,  Cass would be a part of the book for about 3/4ths of a year before going to be Tim's co-star in Red Robin, having occasional appearances in Batgirl, thus allowing for a smooth transition. 
> 
> I wonder how much of my hatred of Kara comes from her appearances in Batgirl...not relevant right now.


I did acknowledge that you would disagree. But fundamentally, while I think your outline of events would have made a great story, it would have been a Cass solo with Steph as a supporting character. I'm talking about Steph as Batgirl, succeeding as a solo character. I don't think that means Cass needed to disappear, but I do think it means she would need to be in a different title for most of the first year.




> But seeing Steph act like she was her best friend at a time where it seemed like she didn't give half a f**k about her actual best friend? That doesn't get a pass from me.


1) I think I've said this before, but it's pretty clear from what actually happened that DC was treating the friendship between Steph and Cass as something that had changed significantly since Steph returned from the dead. There are strong textual arguments to be made that it hadn't necessarily (based largely on the Cass dream sequences in Batiglr 70-73), but I think claiming that the friendship was just the same as it was before Steph died is a only works if you do a certain amount of deliberately suppressing the text published. Which, if you want to go with your own fan-selected-canon, is fine - it's certainly an approach everyone has to take given the sheer volume of stuff out there - but there's a lot more evidence that Steph's relationships had changed a lot since she came back than she's ready to fall into old patterns.

2) This ties back to my hatred of Cass knocking Steph out, but even in their best issues, Cass never seemed to think that Steph was really worth standing up for. She was worth training, and she was an important part of her forming bonds to life instead of just to the mission, but she never once told Bruce he was wrong to ban Steph from being a hero, or firing her as Robin, or anything. She showed concern during War Games, but that's not the same as standing up for her.




> It did seem kind of random to see Steph and Kara acting so close, but I didn't think they were acting like Kara was Steph's best friend beyond acknowledging the tradition of Supergirl being Batgirl's best friend.


It was supposed to be playing off of the Worlds Finest miniseries by Sterling Gates, I believe. They reference it, and I can see the way BQM wrote them as girls who like each other, but don't know each other that well yet. The way they don't seem to have a routine setup to meet as civilians, the BFFs joke, and the fact that Kara doesn't know that Steph needs to change into her costume all seem like this is a new friendship.

----------


## dominus

> Here it is...I got kind of into it:  
> 
>  "Assuming that Morrison had to be left unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with: 
> 
> Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore. 
> 
> *snipped for brevity*
> 
> And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get: A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl, but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion."



This is actually pretty decent, and I could see it healing some wounds.

As for the rest, well..

DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.

----------


## Dataweaver

N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.

----------


## Caivu

> DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.


The New 52 wasn't a _complete_ failure, and Rebirth isn't a failure at all (even if some things are still "wrong").

----------


## Dataweaver

And frankly, if DC announced today that nothing from September 2011 to now counts and that they're picking up where they left of just before Flashpoint, none of the issues that we've been talking about would be fixed.

----------


## millernumber1

> This is actually pretty decent, and I could see it healing some wounds.
> 
> As for the rest, well..
> 
> DC just needs to admit that N52 and Rebirth were just complete failures.


Like I said, it would be a very good Cass story, leading into a possibly good Steph story. But Cass leaving, unless as Assam suggests, she goes to another title as a lead or lead supporting character (like Red Robin/Black Bat), would only delay the problem, and there's not really a chance that Steph fans would really be on board after 9 months of a Cass book for it finally to be a Steph solo book. I mean, people like me would be like, "Yay! Steph finally gets her own chance! What a bold move!" But 9 issues in, a title has already found its level, and you'd be losing all the Cass fan sales and wouldn't get new readers on board on issue 10 unless you also had a creative change or relaunch.

I do think more should have been done by other titles, like RIP and Outsiders, to give Cass a direction, but I still would strongly argue that if you don't start with Batgirl #1, Steph clearly the main character by the end of the that 20 pages, you don't achieve a successful solo for Steph.

N52 was a mess. I don't think it's a complete failure. Batman Eternal, Grayson, Omega Men, Snyder's Batman (even though I don't much like it), Azzarello's Wonder Woman (even though I HATE it), Batman and Robin/Robin Son of Batman - all of these have far-reaching consequences and much love, and I'd argue several of them are really excellent achievements as well.

But most of those either are successful by sheer skill and willpower and advertising, or because they're course corrections (Batman Eternal in particular).




> N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.


Agreed. Rebirth really revitalized the DC fanbase, I think.




> The New 52 wasn't a _complete_ failure, and Rebirth isn't a failure at all (even if some things are still "wrong").


The n52 was a wrong direction, but it did what it was intended to do, and the negatives are hopefully being learned from.




> And frankly, if DC announced today that nothing from September 2011 to now counts and that they're picking up where they left of just before Flashpoint, none of the issues that we've been talking about would be fixed.


Yeah. You'd still need someone on major titles who actually wanted to fix the Cass issue. Which we had in 2011 with Snyder and Higgins, but now...Snyder would never do a Cass book, since he wants to do something outside of Gotham now (and if he were in Gotham, it'd be all about Duke), and Higgins isn't really at DC, New Order notwithstanding. It's all on Tynion now, and he's purely a n52 writer.

----------


## Assam

> 1) I think I've said this before, but it's pretty clear from what actually happened that DC was treating the friendship between Steph and Cass as something that had changed significantly since Steph returned from the dead. There are strong textual arguments to be made that it hadn't necessarily (based largely on the Cass dream sequences in Batiglr 70-73), but I think claiming that the friendship was just the same as it was before Steph died is a only works if you do a certain amount of deliberately suppressing the text published. Which, if you want to go with your own fan-selected-canon, is fine - it's certainly an approach everyone has to take given the sheer volume of stuff out there - but there's a lot more evidence that Steph's relationships had changed a lot since she came back than she's ready to fall into old patterns.


And that makes this better _how_ exactly? It kinda makes it worse. 




> 2) This ties back to my hatred of Cass knocking Steph out, but even in their best issues, Cass never seemed to think that Steph was really worth standing up for. She was worth training, and she was an important part of her forming bonds to life instead of just to the mission, but she never once told Bruce he was wrong to ban Steph from being a hero, or firing her as Robin, or anything. She showed concern during War Games, but that's not the same as standing up for her.


Steph got a very clear skill boost when she became Batgirl. Over the course of the story I outlined, she'd show Cass just how much better she'd gotten. 





> N52, sure. But Rebirth? While it has its flaws, I wouldn't call it a failure; I'd call it a step in the right direction.


Considering 'Rebirth' is over, unless we're going to count EVERYTHING from now till the next reboot as Rebirth, I'd say it was pretty crap. Marginally better than the Nu52. 




> The New 52 wasn't a _complete_ failure


Things I liked in the Nu52: Aquaman, Secret Six, Aquaman and the Others. Few other things I kinda liked, but none that kept my interest. 




> Yeah. You'd still need someone on major titles who actually wanted to fix the Cass issue. Which we had in 2011 with Snyder and Higgins, but now...Snyder would never do a Cass book, since he wants to do something outside of Gotham now (and if he were in Gotham, it'd be all about Duke), and Higgins isn't really at DC, New Order notwithstanding. It's all on Tynion now, and he's purely a n52 writer.


Snyder's leaving Gotham, Tynion is a Nu52 writer, Simone only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan, Bryan Hill isn't on a major title, Valentine and Higgens aren't at DC...oye.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> And that makes this better _how_ exactly? It kinda makes it worse. 
> 
> Steph got a very clear skill boost when she became Batgirl. Over the course of the story I outlined, she'd show Cass just how much better she'd gotten. 
> 
> Snyder's leaving Gotham, Tynion is a Nu52 writer, Simone only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan, Bryan Hill isn't on a major title, Valentine and Higgens aren't at DC...oye.


It doesn't make it better. It's the text we have to deal with. And the point of reading texts in community is that everyone is working from the same text. If we only use our fan-selected or fanon interpolations in conversation, it confuses people who read Cass's three trades and Steph's two trades and try to figure out what the relationship is. Even if they read everything on comixology, the specific interpretation that "Steph is still Cass's best friend despite the changes that her death brought, and then the horrific Evil Cass storyline brought" relies too heavily on things that simply aren't there. If we were writing our own stories in a shared universe like the DC New Dawn thingy on this forum, then we could use that shared assumption and fanon interpolations. But in terms of what is actually in the comics, it's not settled that Cass feels the same way about Steph that she did when Steph died.

I don't think Steph got a skill boost that's unusual for a few years of training. What she got was people - both civilians and the hero community - who believed in her as a hero who could be responsible for a major role. I don't think Steph could or should ever be as good as Cass at fighting - anywhere close. But I do think she's good enough to be Batgirl if given proper equipment and support. Your story does give her that, but it doesn't give her an actual solo for 9 months. Which is still a great story, but it's not a Steph solo.

Snyder is like Simone - only wants to enjoy Cass as a fan. That's a good way to put it. I do think it's a shame that Valentine never got a chance to write Cass outside of Batman and Robin Eternal, though she did a pretty solid job there.

----------


## Dataweaver

I agree with millernumber1: the problem with Assam's suggestion is that it doesn't feature Stephanie prominently enough. At the very least, Stephanie needs a character arc of her own that's more than “Cass recruits Stephanie to Team Batgirl; Team Batgirl bonds; months later, Cass splits, leaving Stephanie as the de facto solo Batgirl”. What's missing here is the same sorts of character-defining and -developing moments that you outlined for Cass.

And even if you _did_ add them in, you'd still have the problem that Stephanie wouldn't be the lead for over half a year. 

The issues you bring up are important ones that deserved to be addressed; just somewhere other than Stephanie's book.

----------


## Dataweaver

> Considering 'Rebirth' is over, unless we're going to count EVERYTHING from now till the next reboot as Rebirth, I'd say it was pretty crap. Marginally better than the Nu52.


Personally, I'm not going to consider it over until Doomsday Clock is done; that will be the point when the plot threads introduced in DCU Rebirth will supposedly be resolved.

----------


## millernumber1

> Personally, I'm not going to consider it “over” until Doomsday Clock is done; that will be the point when the plot threads introduced in DCU Rebirth will supposedly be resolved.


Well said. And even then. If it's making tons of money, look for "SPINNING OUT OF DOOMSDAY CLOCK!"

----------


## Dataweaver

What I like most about Assam's outline is the way that Cass giving up the Batgirl identity doesn't come out of the blue: I think having her guest-star in Batman and Robin about a month or two before the new Batgirl series launches could work as a way for her to get the idea in her head that she can move on from Batgirl to something that's her own. (Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)

----------


## Assam

I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl. And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around. There _used_ to be a lot more common ground between the fandoms. 




> Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)


Now see, I noted that I was excluding messing around with that story, but I definitely have some ideas on how I'd have told that story. And I'm not just talking about making Cass a main part of the action, I mean in general, because that story was a bloody mess.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I'll write out an outline on that end if anyone's interested (likely on the Cass thread) but I'll say that if I could do what I wanted there, I'd probably only need to have Cass be around for the first two or so issues of Batgirl in bit parts.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl.


 Let's turn this around. Say, for the sake of argument, that the plan was for Dick to pass on the Nightwing identity to Cass. So we concoct an elaborate seven-month storyline in Nightwing where Duck brings Cass under his wing and has her suit up in a Nightwing-like costume and works alongside her for awhile, with both of them being called Nightwing. Then, at the end of the seven months, Dick drops the Nightwing identity and becomes Batman and leaves Cass to her own devices as the now one and only Nightwing. 

Alternately, Dick contacts Cass and tells her that he thinks she'd benefit from being Nightwing, gives her a costume, and tells her to have at it; so from issue #1, the new Nightwing title is about Cassandra and how she deals with the new responsibilities that come with her new identity.

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether “Nightwing” is a good fit for Cass (let's assume that the writer can make her interesting in the role), and _as a Cassandra Cain fan,_ which would you rather see: the version where she's at best sharing the spotlight with Dick and at worst is being unfavorably contrasted with him, or the version where she's the lead character from the start, and gets to make the book her own right away instead of having to wait half a year first?

The same holds true with Stephanie: giving her the full spotlight right off the bat is preferable to waiting six or seven months during which she's at best a costar and very likely viewed by the general audience as “the poor man's Batgirl”. No matter how competent she's shown to be, she's still essentially Cass' trainee for most of those six months; and their constant proximity all but screams for the readers to judge Stephanie in comparison to Cass rather than on her own merits — which more likely than not would merely drive a different kind of wedge between the two fanbases.

The best thing _for Stephanie_ would be to get the spotlight from day one; and since the ultimate purpose of the title was to redeem and promote Stephanie, what's best for Stephanie should take precedence.




> And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around.


…and, to paraphrase several characters from _The Sound of Music_ with respect to the opportunist Max, it wouldn't do Cass' popularity any harm either — which, frankly, is what I figure you're more concerned about.




> Now see, I noted that I was excluding messing around with that story, but I definitely have some ideas on how I'd have told that story. And I'm not just talking about making Cass a main part of the action, I mean in general, because that story was a bloody mess.  
> 
> I'll write out an outline on that end if anyone's interested (likely on the Cass thread) but I'll say that if I could do what I wanted there, I'd probably only need to have Cass be around for the first two or so issues of Batgirl in bit parts.


As I pointed out above, that would be preferable. So let's hear it: I'll be monitoring the Cass thread for your alternate take on the Battle for the Cowl.

----------


## millernumber1

> What I like most about Assam's outline is the way that Cass giving up the Batgirl identity doesn't come out of the blue: I think having her guest-star in Batman and Robin about a month or two before the new Batgirl series launches could work as a way for her to get the idea in her head that she can move on from Batgirl to something that's her own. (Also, I would have been fine with her being part of the Battle for the Cowl, which could also be used for this purpose.)


Yup. All that setup could and should have been done beforehand. But the fact that she was kicked out of her own team book by Tomasi, and Battle for the Cowl completely ignored her (not that she would have gotten GOOD characterization from it, but she wouldn't have been MIA for no good reason, at least) killed that possibility.




> I get what you guys are saying about it not being Steph's book for awhile with my idea, but I don't personally see that as a problem. Her book, up until the recent trades, was never called 'Stephanie Brown: Batgirl', but Batgirl. It would still be about characters calling themselves Batgirl. And in regards to sales dropping after the departure, ideally, the book would be well written enough and Steph interesting and likable enough that the fans who were originally picking it up for Cass would stick around. There _used_ to be a lot more common ground between the fandoms.


Well, it makes sense that you don't see it as a problem. Just as I don't feel the mistreatment of Cass destroys my enjoyment of Steph's solo as it exists. It's all about the character you are more invested in, and for me, it's Steph. (Also, it's called "Batgirl: Stephanie Brown" now in trade  :Wink:  ).

That being said, the point of the book was clearly a Steph solo, though it has a LOT of Babs (at least for the first year).




> Let's turn this around. Say, for the sake of argument, that the plan was for Dick to pass on the Nightwing identity to Cass. So we concoct an elaborate seven-month storyline in Nightwing where Duck brings Cass under his wing and has her suit up in a Nightwing-like costume and works alongside her for awhile, with both of them being called Nightwing. Then, at the end of the seven months, Dick drops the Nightwing identity and becomes Batman and leaves Cass to her own devices as the now one and only Nightwing. 
> 
> Alternately, Dick contacts Cass and tells her that he thinks she'd benefit from being Nightwing, gives her a costume, and tells her to have at it; so from issue #1, the new Nightwing title is about Cassandra and how she deals with the new responsibilities that come with her new identity.
> 
> Setting aside for the moment the question of whether “Nightwing” is a good fit for Cass (let's assume that the writer can make her interesting in the role), and _as a Cassandra Cain fan,_ which would you rather see: the version where she's at best sharing the spotlight with Dick and at worst is being unfavorably contrasted with him, or the version where she's the lead character from the start, and gets to make the book her own right away instead of having to wait half a year first?
> 
> The same holds true with Stephanie: giving her the full spotlight right off the bat is preferable to waiting six or seven months during which she's at best a costar and very likely viewed by the general audience as “the poor man's Batgirl”. No matter how competent she's shown to be, she's still essentially Cass' trainee for most of those six months; and their constant proximity all but screams for the readers to judge Stephanie in comparison to Cass rather than on her own merits — which more likely than not would merely drive a different kind of wedge between the two fanbases.
> 
> The best thing _for Stephanie_ would be to get the spotlight from day one; and since the ultimate purpose of the title was to redeem and promote Stephanie, what's best for Stephanie should take precedence.
> ...


Good parallel counterfactual there. The biggest problem with Steph in a series where Cass is actively functioning in the same general area is that she cannot compete on a sheer combat level, and thus there's going to be a constant pressure to be the same kind of Batgirl, or for people top wish for the better Batgirl.

And that's not what a Steph Batgirl series would need for Steph to become respected as Batgirl. Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.

But I do.

----------


## Assam

> As I pointed out above, that would be preferable. So let's hear it: I'll be monitoring the Cass thread for your alternate take on the Battle for the Cowl.


I'll try to get to that soon. To make sure I get details straight, I'm probably gonna reread Battle for the Cowl first...which isn't exactly something I want to do.  :Wink: 




> (Also, it's called "Batgirl: Stephanie Brown" now in trade  ).


I got it backwards. Sue me. 




> Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.


It's less for me that I feel that it's Steph's 'place' to be Cass's sidekick than it is my thinking that she's never been _better_ than in the issues where she was Cass's sidekick.

----------


## Godlike13

Thats not really better, lol. She came off as a joke when with Cass. Steph was comically dismissed and beat up by Cass. If Cass was ever treated like Steph was when she was next to Cass, Cass fans would go ape shit.

----------


## Frontier

Can I just say what an interesting experience it has been for me reading the Batgirls in backwards chronological order  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## millernumber1

> I got it backwards. Sue me. 
> 
> It's less for me that I feel that it's Steph's 'place' to be Cass's sidekick than it is my thinking that she's never been _better_ than in the issues where she was Cass's sidekick.


I was just joking about the Batgirl Stephanie Brown thing.  :Smile: 

See, I think Steph has had some really great stuff as Cass's sidekick, but I do think that's how Puckett and Horrocks thought of her. Dixon thought of Steph as a supporting character for Tim, but he did give her her own plotlines, like the stuff with her Dad, training with Black Canary, and just before he left the first time, she was training with Batman. She never really felt like Tim's sidekick, or even just like his love interest, but like a character with her own aspirations and arcs. That, to me, is why I like Tim and Steph so much together, both as love interests and as friends. Because she wasn't his sidekick, anymore than Babs was Dick's.




> Thats not really better, lol. She came off as a joke when with Cass. Steph was comically dismissed and beat up by Cass. If Cass was ever treated like Steph was when she was next to Cass, Cass fans would go ape shit.


Yeah, pretty much.




> Can I just say what an interesting experience it has been for me reading the Batgirls in backwards chronological order ?


I read at least part of Batgirl Year One before I read Steph as Batgirl, and I read a few issues of Cass's run, but the order for me was Babs in Year One, Steph, and Cass, in terms of reading things all the way through.

And all three are so much better than Babs has been since n52, sadly. Not that I want Babs to be a bad Batgirl, but she's just less than she's ever been, and much less than either Steph or Cass.

----------


## Assam

> I was just joking about the Batgirl Stephanie Brown thing.


I know. 




> See, I think Steph has had some really great stuff as Cass's sidekick, but I do think that's how Puckett and Horrocks thought of her. Dixon thought of Steph as a supporting character for Tim, but he did give her her own plotlines, like the stuff with her Dad, training with Black Canary, and just before he left the first time, she was training with Batman. She never really felt like Tim's sidekick, or even just like his love interest, but like a character with her own aspirations and arcs. That, to me, is why I like Tim and Steph so much together, both as love interests and as friends. Because she wasn't his sidekick, anymore than Babs was Dick's.


A fair perspective. What I meant by what I said was that I've never personally enjoyed her character more than in that role, because her dynamic with Cass is by far the most interesting thing about her character to me. Plus, an issue from that period, #26, is my favorite solo Steph adventure.

----------


## millernumber1

> A fair perspective. What I meant by what I said was that I've never personally enjoyed her character more than in that role, because her dynamic with Cass is by far the most interesting thing about her character to me. Plus, an issue from that period, #26, is my favorite solo Steph adventure.


I'm curious - why would Steph existing mostly to support/further Cass's development be better than the same situation with Tim? I personally view both roles for Steph as stepping stones to her solo career, but there does seem to be a large contingent of fans who seem to think that it's bad for Steph to be a supporting character for Tim but not pretty much the same relationship (creatively, I mean) with Cass?

I do, as you know, adore Batgirl #26. Still really happy I found a copy of it!

----------


## Frontier

> And all three are so much better than Babs has been since n52, sadly. Not that I want Babs to be a bad Batgirl, but she's just less than she's ever been, and much less than either Steph or Cass.


I don't disagree with this at all.

----------


## dominus

> Good parallel counterfactual there. The biggest problem with Steph in a series where Cass is actively functioning in the same general area is that she cannot compete on a sheer combat level, and thus there's going to be a constant pressure to be the same kind of Batgirl, or for people top wish for the better Batgirl.
> 
> And that's not what a Steph Batgirl series would need for Steph to become respected as Batgirl. Now, if your position is, as I know it is for many Cass fans, that Steph's natural place in the universe is as Cass's sidekick, then you have little desire to see Steph strike out on her own.
> 
> But I do.


Easy fix for that. (Not sure if Assam is on a perma-ban or temp) but I've got a solution that would take their outline and probably give a good outcome for fans of both.

Steph gets her solo series, at the end of a Cass Batgirl 6 issue mini series, where Cass hands over the uniform. Cass feels the calling to go out in the world, but realizes that Gotham needs a Batgirl, so she picks her own replacement. (Whether or not at the behest of Bruce can be left ambiguous.)

Spoiler (at the end of a crime bust): So... team Batgirl?
Batgirl (stripping off her costume and handing it over to Steph): No. Just Batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

> Easy fix for that. (Not sure if Assam is on a perma-ban or temp) but I've got a solution that would take their outline and probably give a good outcome for fans of both.
> 
> Steph gets her solo series, at the end of a Cass Batgirl 6 issue mini series, where Cass hands over the uniform. Cass feels the calling to go out in the world, but realizes that Gotham needs a Batgirl, so she picks her own replacement. (Whether or not at the behest of Bruce can be left ambiguous.)
> 
> Spoiler (at the end of a crime bust): So... team Batgirl?
> Batgirl (stripping off her costume and handing it over to Steph): No. Just Batgirl.


I think that would work - probably even better if we move the Batgirl: Redemption miniseries to after RIP, have it written by ANYBODY ELSE, and have the handoff be the end of it. Maybe have the adoption be the beginning of it.

I mean, we know that Beechen was against Steph being Batgirl, so it would definitely have to be someone else writing.

----------


## Dataweaver

No, actually it wouldn't work. A six-month delay is a six-month delay, whether it's six months of Cass taking the lead in Steph's book or six months of Steph's book being delayed to allow the Cass miniseries to play out. Remember, when Batgirl #1 came out, it coincided with both Red Robin #1 and Batman and Robin #1: in that month, Dick became Batman; Damian became Robin; Tim became Red Robin; and Stephanie became Batgirl. 

This is where Battle for the Cowl comes in: if you want a miniseries prior to Batgirl #1 in which Cassandra comes to the decision to pass the Batgirl identity on to Stephanie, that miniseries/event would have been the perfect place to do it. It took place at the right time (in the aftermath of Batman RIP and just before Batgirl #1) and its subject matter was highly compatible (in the wake of Bruce's apparent death, who should take on what identity?).

----------


## millernumber1

> No, actually it wouldn't work. A six-month delay is a six-month delay, whether it's six months of Cass taking the lead in Steph's book or six months of Steph's book being delayed to allow the Cass miniseries to play out. Remember, when Batgirl #1 came out, it coincided with both Red Robin #1 and Batman and Robin #1: in that month, Dick became Batman; Damian became Robin; Tim became Red Robin; and Stephanie became Batgirl. 
> 
> This is where Battle for the Cowl comes in: if you want a miniseries prior to Batgirl #1 in which Cassandra comes to the decision to pass the Batgirl identity on to Stephanie, that miniseries/event would have been the perfect place to do it. It took place at the right time (in the aftermath of Batman RIP and just before Batgirl #1) and its subject matter was highly compatible (in the wake of Bruce's apparent death, who should take on what identity?).


That's why I posited this miniseries replacing Batgirl: Redemption. That gives Cass her due without taking any of Steph's screentime.

Of course, your suggestion of a Battle for the Cowl tie-in filling the same function would also have been pretty solid.

I'm still firmly in the "Cass was shafted, but that doesn't mean we need to shaft Steph to make it right" camp.

----------


## Dataweaver

And delaying Batgirl: Redemption would have shafted Cass even more — though I agree with your assessment that it should have been written by someone else; Beechen was the one who screwed up Cass in One Year Later (though more due to ignorance and editorial mandate than malice); and too much of Batgirl: Redemption involved patching up continuity errors that we're better off ignored (e.g., devoting _any_ panel time to explaining how Lynx could be killed twice, once during Way Games and again in One Year Later — especially when the explanation was “I had her resurrected so I could kill her again”).

----------


## millernumber1

> And delaying Batgirl: Redemption would have shafted Cass even more — though I agree with your assessment that it should have been written by someone else; Beechen was the one who screwed up Cass in One Year Later (though more due to ignorance and editorial mandate than malice); and too much of Batgirl: Redemption involved patching up continuity errors that we're better off ignored (e.g., devoting _any_ panel time to explaining how Lynx could be killed twice, once during Way Games and again in One Year Later — especially when the explanation was “I had her resurrected so I could kill her again”).


I disagree that delaying it would shaft her more. We already had Cass being heroic in Batman and the Outsiders from at least December 2007, and Batgirl: Redemption came out July-December 2008. Delaying it so it coincided a bit more with RIP/Battle for the Cowl wouldn't have hurt her more if it turned into an actually good series, instead of a really crummy story with kinda sketchy art that has exactly one good panel in all six issues.

My dislike of Beechen is less because he screwed up Cass (since later interviews show he loved Cass as Batgirl, and was very cranky when Steph took over), and more that he's just a really bad writer.

Poor Lynx. That "resurrected to kill her again" is pretty lol-inducing, though.

Fundamentally, though, I think Cass should have had at least a one-shot during Battle for the Cowl, or even a short story in the Gotham Gazette framing issues for Battle for the Cowl. Much as I love seeing Steph in that Chris Cross art, FabNic's story for her was pretty whack, and I wouldn't have minded Cass getting her own solo short story, or even sharing the story with Steph (instead of FabNic's incredibly annoying Tim "YOU CAN'T BE A HERO STEPH"). She did get some cool moments in The Network, I think, but it wasn't nearly enough.

----------


## adrikito

I miss the happy days in this topic... But  in the solicitations I can´t see better days..

*
Young Justice.. Season 3 won't debut before October 2018.* 

https://twitter.com/Greg_Weisman/sta...82773961658376


In the WORST CASE, Maybe we will see the season 3 in December, like a Christmas gift...

----------


## Dataweaver

> Waiting for one *Steph&Cass* comic..


 They can call it “We Are Batty”.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

> They can call it “We Are Batty”.


My signature..

I will call this serie.. GOTHAM GIRLS or THE BATGIRLS(However, this can´t work now  :Frown: )..

I prefer forget *we are* robin..

----------


## millernumber1

> I miss the happy days in this topic... But  in the solicitations I can´t see better days..
> 
> *
> Young Justice.. Season 3 won't debut before October 2018.* 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Greg_Weisman/sta...82773961658376
> 
> 
> In the WORST CASE, Maybe we will see the season 3 in December, like a Christmas gift...


Predicting it now: YJ season 3 will air March, 2019.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

Cass is too shy..

Screen Shot 288.jpg

----------


## Chickfighter

> They can call it “We Are Batty”.


For years I have wanted a "Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph" comic!

----------


## millernumber1

> For years I have wanted a "Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph" comic!


With Tim, their daily morning customer who always buys coffee (but Steph always sneaks decaf in).  :Wink:

----------


## Chickfighter

> With Tim, their daily morning customer who always buys coffee (but Steph always sneaks decaf in).


That'd be awesome. :P

----------


## adrikito

I saw Steph design(is excellent) in the preview of the last issue, I liked:

detective comics 974 stephanie brown spoiler cassandra cain.jpg

Seems that the mask is out..

----------


## adrikito

batgirl and supergirl:

batgirl stephanie brown supergirl kara.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw Steph design(is excellent) in the preview of the last issue, I liked:
> 
> detective comics 974 stephanie brown spoiler cassandra cain.jpg
> 
> Seems that the mask is out..


I dunno how I feel about Steph going back to not wearing her mask. I wish they'd just give her a domino, if they're not going to have the filter mask.




> batgirl and supergirl:
> 
> batgirl stephanie brown supergirl kara.jpg


Cute!

----------


## adrikito

I think that Steph with mask was a temporal decision... 

Tynion: I will make her like in the old times, but for a short time..

----------


## millernumber1

> I think that Steph with mask was a temporal decision... 
> 
> Tynion: I will make her like in the old times, but for a short time..


It felt like a long time!  :Smile:  I dunno. I really just hope that whatever happens, Steph gets her friendships with Tim and Cass back in order. Like, next issue.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> It felt like a long time!  I dunno. I really just hope that whatever happens, Steph gets her friendships with Tim and Cass back in order. Like, next issue.


Now, the only that I want is... the ending of Tim&Kate problems... Tim problems are Steph problems... Something obvious since "Tim death"..

Until the ending of this... I think that I will only see Detective Comics 975... I think that I heard that Damian will appear here..

----------


## millernumber1

> Now, the only that I want is... the ending of Tim&Kate problems... Tim problems are Steph problems... Something obvious since "Tim death"..
> 
> Until the ending of this... I think that I will only see Detective Comics 975... I think that I heard that Damian will appear here..


Awww. I think the whole Clayface arc has been pretty solid, though! I do think Tynion needs to feature Steph more. But I always think EVERYONE needs to feature Steph more.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Steph situation in detective comics? Better or worst?

----------


## Miles To Go

> Steph situation in detective comics? Better or worst?


She's left Tim again

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph situation in detective comics? Better or worst?


Much worse - she's been written off the book again, and she directly contradicts her statement last issue that she's where she needs to be. I'm really, really frustrated - I've defended Tynion's arc for Steph for a year now, and this feels like a betrayal.

----------


## adrikito

> She's left Tim again


.... The tomorrow future is approaching...




> Much worse - she's been written off the book again, and she directly contradicts her statement last issue that she's where she needs to be. I'm really, really frustrated - I've defended Tynion's arc for Steph for a year now, and this feels like a betrayal.


Thank you.. BOTH..

A betrayal...  :Mad:   :Mad:  I heard that not only Kate, Azrael and Batwing are out too(something that I imaginated for one future solicitation cover).. Without Cass this comic will be only for Batman and Red Robin.. 

I think that I will see the next chapter(I heard that damian will appear, but maybe is only one image) and... I will wait for better times or another Cass saga..

----------


## millernumber1

> .... The tomorrow future is approaching...


I dunno - she left in her civilian clothes, whereas in the future, she's Spoiler.

I'm pretty mad right now.

----------


## adrikito

Poor Steph...

Maybe the best option is NO STEPH in this comic and NO MORE CHANCES to ruin her..

Without Steph and a GOOD STORY I will return in the future, but only for Cass..

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw the last image of this chapter in INSIDEPULSE... 
> 
> Brother Eye(another problem, created for batman) is controlling that idiot?


No, I think Brother Eye and the General are working together. Which is another reason why I don't think that the future is coming - because the General is explicitly trying to make it happen sooner - and if it happens sooner, it will be different, and thus not the same future.

----------


## adrikito

> No, I think Brother Eye and the General are working together. Which is another reason why I don't think that the future is coming - because the General is explicitly trying to make it happen sooner - and if it happens sooner, it will be different, and thus not the same future.


I am against Brother Eye since Futures ends.... My fear is repeat that future.. 

That thing should be destroyed.

----------


## millernumber1

> I am against Brother Eye since Futures ends.... My fear is repeat that future.. 
> 
> That thing should be destroyed.


I agree. I've hated Brother Eye since OMAC Crisis.

----------


## Katana500

> She's left Tim again


I much prefer her alone than with Tim. Her relationship with Tim is a bit rubbish.

----------


## millernumber1

> I much prefer her alone than with Tim. Her relationship with Tim is a bit rubbish.


I disagree that it's always rubbish, but I do think that her relationship with Tim since he came back has been bad, because he's been lying to her, and she hasn't dealt with all her issues about being a hero.

----------


## Katana500

> I disagree that it's always rubbish, but I do think that her relationship with Tim since he came back has been bad, because he's been lying to her, and she hasn't dealt with all her issues about being a hero.


I do wonder what will happen to steph now she has left now.

Their relationship in rebirth just seems forced.

----------


## millernumber1

> I do wonder what will happen to steph now she has left now.
> 
> Their relationship in rebirth just seems forced.


Well, if what happened last time happens again, she'll pop up every 10 issues. Ugh. I hate it.

I think it's definitely been relying on affection for the TimSteph years of Dixon's Robin, but I don't think it's forced. I would like to see more of the getting to know each other/falling in love bits, though.

----------


## Miles To Go

I agree with you, I think we'll get a "day in the limelight" fill-in issue with Stephanie on her journey and moving across the country, she has some kind of epiphany, and comes back to Gotham with a different perspective, by which point Tim's almost losing it.

If the Batman annual is to be taken as canon, they get back together eventually.

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree with you, I think we'll get a "day in the limelight" fill-in issue with Stephanie on her journey and moving across the country, she has some kind of epiphany, and comes back to Gotham with a different perspective, by which point Tim's almost losing it.
> 
> If the Batman annual is to be taken as canon, they get back together eventually.


I'm so frustrated - we just got Steph back as a regular part of the team, and first she promises to stay, then she leaves. I wouldn't mind a solo Spoiler issue every now and then - sort of like the Robin Spoiler Special, where she has an epiphany in Africa - but man. I was really hoping she was going to be a main character again.

Much as I am a die-hard TimSteph shipper, I'm much more upset that Steph is gone than that she isn't with Tim.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm so frustrated - we just got Steph back as a regular part of the team, and first she promises to stay, then she leaves. I wouldn't mind a solo Spoiler issue every now and then - sort of like the Robin Spoiler Special, where she has an epiphany in Africa - but man. I was really hoping she was going to be a main character again.
> 
> Much as I am a die-hard TimSteph shipper, I'm much more upset that Steph is gone than that she isn't with Tim.


This in it's own way is a huge set back for her.

----------


## millernumber1

> This in it's own way is a huge set back for her.


Could you expand on what you mean by "setback?"

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Could you expand on what you mean by "setback?"


She hasn't been well written in a very long time and what happened just furthers that problem.

----------


## millernumber1

> She hasn't been well written in a very long time and what happened just furthers that problem.


I disagree a bit. She definitely wasn't super well written in the last two issues. But the biggest problem with her is she wasn't written, period. Tynion wrote her out in Victim Syndicate - and it was logical and I think well written at the time. And the first Spoiler issue of Tec, where she fights the Wrath, was pretty good. But the second time was much, less well paced, and I think it's clear at this point that Steph's story has gotten away from Tynion, which is what I was afraid of when he pawned her off on a co-writer last summer.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I disagree a bit. She definitely wasn't super well written in the last two issues. But the biggest problem with her is she wasn't written, period. Tynion wrote her out in Victim Syndicate - and it was logical and I think well written at the time. And the first Spoiler issue of Tec, where she fights the Wrath, was pretty good. But the second time was much, less well paced, and I think it's clear at this point that Steph's story has gotten away from Tynion, which is what I was afraid of when he pawned her off on a co-writer last summer.


As far as characterisation goes how is that well written though? Forgive me but I am not familiar with Stephanie's character what was she like in Post-Crisis?

----------


## millernumber1

> As far as characterisation goes how is that well written though? Forgive me but I am not familiar with Stephanie's character what was she like in Post-Crisis?


Steph in Post-Crisis has two main characterizations: fun-loving girl with a big stubborn streak, and hard-edged vigilante with anger issues caused by her dad. Dixon was able to segue between the two pretty well, as her creator. A significant chunk of Steph's fanbase doesn't like her time as Batgirl because Bryan Q. Miller definitely leaned hard on the fun-loving side of her characterization.

I've been arguing this for a year now, since Victim Syndicate ended, that Tynion's choices for Steph are good, at least in concept, because so much of Steph's arc in the pre-Flashpoint canon was her being an outsider because Batman didn't think she was good enough. (At least, that was the narrative post-Dixon.) Now Tynion is writing a Bruce who wouldn't keep Steph at arm's length for these reasons, because Tynion's Bruce is much more emotionally open than most previous Batman incarnations in the past 20 years. If you're going to do that, but you still want Steph to be an outsider, you need to give her a reason for it - so Tynion gave her a complicated emotional and philosophical reason to leave the group. I think if he'd actually focused on it, it could have resolved well. But instead, he farmed it out to an inferior writer (who did okay the first issue, but the next two issues he really fumbled), and I think he's lost control of where her story should be going.

But in the first two arcs, you had the Steph who was fun loving, stubborn, and sassy - pretty solid stuff. Then she was torn apart by grief at Tim's death, and that caused her to be unable to see the good in what Batman does. So she left, and tried to do stuff on her own. I think all of that was pretty solid stuff. But it did set most of the fandom against her, and at this point, I'm starting to join them, because the reversal between this issue and the last is just incredibly badly done.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph in Post-Crisis has two main characterizations: fun-loving girl with a big stubborn streak, and hard-edged vigilante with anger issues caused by her dad. Dixon was able to segue between the two pretty well, as her creator. A significant chunk of Steph's fanbase doesn't like her time as Batgirl because Bryan Q. Miller definitely leaned hard on the fun-loving side of her characterization.
> 
> I've been arguing this for a year now, since Victim Syndicate ended, that Tynion's choices for Steph are good, at least in concept, because so much of Steph's arc in the pre-Flashpoint canon was her being an outsider because Batman didn't think she was good enough. (At least, that was the narrative post-Dixon.) Now Tynion is writing a Bruce who wouldn't keep Steph at arm's length for these reasons, because Tynion's Bruce is much more emotionally open than most previous Batman incarnations in the past 20 years. If you're going to do that, but you still want Steph to be an outsider, you need to give her a reason for it - so Tynion gave her a complicated emotional and philosophical reason to leave the group. I think if he'd actually focused on it, it could have resolved well. But instead, he farmed it out to an inferior writer (who did okay the first issue, but the next two issues he really fumbled), and I think he's lost control of where her story should be going.
> 
> But in the first two arcs, you had the Steph who was fun loving, stubborn, and sassy - pretty solid stuff. Then she was torn apart by grief at Tim's death, and that caused her to be unable to see the good in what Batman does. So she left, and tried to do stuff on her own. I think all of that was pretty solid stuff. But it did set most of the fandom against her, and at this point, I'm starting to join them, because the reversal between this issue and the last is just incredibly badly done.


Well that's not good not good at all at this point I just would rather make my own rendition of the DC and Marvel universes it's easier when I am at the head of things. Central Command is in disarray in both companies.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that's not good not good at all at this point I just would rather make my own rendition of the DC and Marvel universes it's easier when I am at the head of things. Central Command is in disarray in both companies.


Um. I mean, I'd also love to be in charge of the New DC Universe: Steph Is The Best company, but I think Rebirth in general has been pretty good. I think Tynion has just been hijacked by Metal/NOPE JUSTICE, and hasn't been giving Tec all the attention it needs with all of the plates he needs to spin.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Um. I mean, I'd also love to be in charge of the New DC Universe: Steph Is The Best company, but I think Rebirth in general has been pretty good. I think Tynion has just been hijacked by Metal/NOPE JUSTICE, and hasn't been giving Tec all the attention it needs with all of the plates he needs to spin.


Tynion is on No Justice as well?

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion is on No Justice as well?


Oh, yes. He's co-writing the series with Snyder and Williamson, and is also said to be working on whatever Snyder is doing after the event as well.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, yes. He's co-writing the series with Snyder and Williamson, and is also said to be working on whatever Snyder is doing after the event as well.


He is being burned out can't they hire someone else instead to do No Justice?

----------


## millernumber1

> He is being burned out can't they hire someone else instead to do No Justice?


I agree. But he's Snyder's buddy, and they have a really close working relationship. So I don't see that changing anytime soon. I wish he were still on twitter, though. But that's probably why he's not - doesn't want a bunch of Steph and Tim and Cass fans all tweeting him asking him to make Tec his priority.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I agree. But he's Snyder's buddy, and they have a really close working relationship. So I don't see that changing anytime soon. I wish he were still on twitter, though. But that's probably why he's not - doesn't want a bunch of Steph and Tim and Cass fans all tweeting him asking him to make Tec his priority.


Considering the current climate going on in social media I can see why Tynion ducked out though so it might be a while until things can be sorted out.

----------


## millernumber1

> Considering the current climate going on in social media I can see why Tynion ducked out though so it might be a while until things can be sorted out.


I really liked the Q&As he did, though. They were really a window into what it's like being the world's biggest Tim Drake fan.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really liked the Q&As he did, though. They were really a window into what it's like being the world's biggest Tim Drake fan.


Too bad No Justice and Metal took up so much of time that he still has yet to properly write booth Tim and Stephanie in character. And yeah maybe with DC's new policy on social media the Q&A's could return.

----------


## millernumber1

> Too bad No Justice and Metal took up so much of time that he still has yet to properly write booth Tim and Stephanie in character. And yeah maybe with DC's new policy on social media the Q&A's could return.


Well, I take issue with the idea that he hasn't written Tim and Steph in character. I think there are plenty of moments, up to the end of Victim Syndicate, where he wrote Steph in character (allowing for new circumstances). And I think his Tim has always been really solid. I know there's lots of hate for "hacker Tim," but I really don't think that he's done it too much, except maybe Batman and Robin Eternal #1. His Tim in Batman Eternal was wonderful, though a supporting character.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I take issue with the idea that he hasn't written Tim and Steph in character. I think there are plenty of moments, up to the end of Victim Syndicate, where he wrote Steph in character (allowing for new circumstances). And I think his Tim has always been really solid. I know there's lots of hate for "hacker Tim," but I really don't think that he's done it too much, except maybe Batman and Robin Eternal #1. His Tim in Batman Eternal was wonderful, though a supporting character.


Well in fairness the hacker thing not what people know Tim Drake as and DC did waste everyone's time when they rebooted and gave Tim nearly completely different character. I honestly had no issues with Tim Drake's old New 52 costume it looked better than his Post-Crisis costume. I just douldn't wrap my head around his origin which was a little crazy. Stephanie's reasons for wanting to leave the Gotham Knights is understandable so in some ways I think people were miffed that she briefly turned on Batman after losing Tim I really cannot understand that issue. But after a while though Stephanie's grievances felt a little overstretched.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well in fairness the hacker thing not what people know Tim Drake as and DC did waste everyone's time when they rebooted and gave Tim nearly completely different character. I honestly had no issues with Tim Drake's old New 52 costume it looked better than his Post-Crisis costume. I just douldn't wrap my head around his origin which was a little crazy. Stephanie's reasons for wanting to leave the Gotham Knights is understandable so in some ways I think people were miffed that she briefly turned on Batman after losing Tim I really cannot understand that issue. But after a while though Stephanie's grievances felt a little overstretched.


I think people who criticize the hacker thing really haven't paid enough attention to how much hacking (and other goofy plot things) Tim did in his original incarnation.  I've never really minded the new origin as much as other fans, but I do really like that Tynion put back large chunks of the old origin.

I'm so glad someone besides me thinks Steph has understandable reasons! But I agree with you - at this point, Steph's conflict with Batman has gone on way too long without any change, and it's keeping her out of the book and unpopular with the fans, and I think it's gone sour, even though it started completely reasonably.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think people who criticize the hacker thing really haven't paid enough attention to how much hacking (and other goofy plot things) Tim did in his original incarnation.  I've never really minded the new origin as much as other fans, but I do really like that Tynion put back large chunks of the old origin.
> 
> I'm so glad someone besides me thinks Steph has understandable reasons! But I agree with you - at this point, Steph's conflict with Batman has gone on way too long without any change, and it's keeping her out of the book and unpopular with the fans, and I think it's gone sour, even though it started completely reasonably.


Some say though that even though Tim did do a lot of hacking in the past he's never relied on it that much whihc could be valid to a degree. Well I appreciate Tynion outting back the old origin because the new one was little convoluted to accept. Well I'm glad you do think that too admittedly though I did go along witt fans mentality about Stephanie mostly to gain attention but it is something I am ashamed of. I also think the reason has more to do with how people blindly worship Batman a lot. Still yeah it was unfortunate that Tim's return could not have come earlier and it was tied to Oz Effect then readers could have seen a much quicker resolution to Stephanie's conflict though Tynion had way too much on his plate to properly fix her issues with Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> Some say though that even though Tim did do a lot of hacking in the past he's never relied on it that much whihc could be valid to a degree. Well I appreciate Tynion outting back the old origin because the new one was little convoluted to accept. Well I'm glad you do think that too admittedly though I did go along witt fans mentality about Stephanie mostly to gain attention but it is something I am ashamed of. I also think the reason has more to do with how people blindly worship Batman a lot. Still yeah it was unfortunate that Tim's return could not have come earlier and it was tied to Oz Effect then readers could have seen a much quicker resolution to Stephanie's conflict though Tynion had way too much on his plate to properly fix her issues with Batman.


There is a lot of pushback on Tec because Tynion "hates Batman" - which is to say, Tynion is writing Bruce as a supporting character, who makes mistakes and fails. But I think he's had a lot of wins - they just don't like that he's not The Main Show And Never Questioned.

I still have hope, depending on whether Tynion gets to stay on Tec till 1000 or not. If he does, or he gets to spin off a Gotham Knights title, I think he'll fix her. But if he doesn't, and someone takes Tec and completely ignores Steph...

It'll be a dark time. Again.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> There is a lot of pushback on Tec because Tynion "hates Batman" - which is to say, Tynion is writing Bruce as a supporting character, who makes mistakes and fails. But I think he's had a lot of wins - they just don't like that he's not The Main Show And Never Questioned.
> 
> I still have hope, depending on whether Tynion gets to stay on Tec till 1000 or not. If he does, or he gets to spin off a Gotham Knights title, I think he'll fix her. But if he doesn't, and someone takes Tec and completely ignores Steph...
> 
> It'll be a dark time. Again.


I don't know why these fans should be complaining about Batman mostly being left out of the action Detective Comics once it began exclusively featuring Batman the comic should have  been rebranded as Batman instead. It's pretty much more proper now since the Batfamily are getting more of the spotlight on it. Also it's been something of bad trend to portray Batman as infallible which also repulses readers so what are people complaining about? After how bad he did her you really think Tynion can fix Stephanie Brown?

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know why these fans should be complaining about Batman mostly being left out of the action Detective Comics once it began exclusively featuring Batman the comic should have  been rebranded as Batman instead. It's pretty much more proper now since the Batfamily are getting more of the spotlight on it. Also it's been something of bad trend to portray Batman as infallible which also repulses readers so what are people complaining about? After how bad he did her you really think Tynion can fix Stephanie Brown?


Eh. There's plenty of people who think Batman should never be seriously challenged by his allies. Thus the popularity of Loeb and Morrison and Snyder.

Then there's those who think that Batman should be challenged on his "no-killing" stance, as seen in the most recent Tec thread.

I do think that while Tynion had a logical and emotionally effective start to Steph's current arc of being opposed to Batman's methods, he has put her on the "wrong" side for the reader. After all, she's basically arguing that Batman shouldn't exist, and we're all Batman comic book readers and fans. While I am still a fan of hers, I do think that there's an unease created when you have a heroic character argue against the entire premise of the franchise that you're reading - like a romantic comedy saying that humor and love stories are bad, or a drama saying that conflict should be avoided. A Batman character saying that Batman shouldn't exist - yeah, it's kind of like having a "stop having fun" character.

I had hope that Steph would come to a realization - the whole issue where she fights Wrath, and the first issue of Utopia/Distopia had her starting to realize her hypocrisy and starting to heal from the wound of Tim's death. But having Tim lie to her and go basically crazy trying to become Bat-Tim (to avoid becoming Bat-Tim...you know, I honestly see why Steph left. I hate it, but Tim was being incredibly unhealthy) meant that her real philosophical issues with Batman (not to mention her fundamental distrust of Batman based on her childhood in Batman Eternal #10) have NEVER been dealt with.

We NEED an issue where Steph and Bruce have a heart to heart - maybe a team up, but some kind of encounter where they both are able to say the truth to each other, and Steph can realize that she wants the same things Bruce does, and that he really is a hero and she can work with him and not against him. I think Tynion can absolutely write that issue.

I don't know if he'll get that chance.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Eh. There's plenty of people who think Batman should never be seriously challenged by his allies. Thus the popularity of Loeb and Morrison and Snyder.
> 
> Then there's those who think that Batman should be challenged on his "no-killing" stance, as seen in the most recent Tec thread.
> 
> I do think that while Tynion had a logical and emotionally effective start to Steph's current arc of being opposed to Batman's methods, he has put her on the "wrong" side for the reader. After all, she's basically arguing that Batman shouldn't exist, and we're all Batman comic book readers and fans. While I am still a fan of hers, I do think that there's an unease created when you have a heroic character argue against the entire premise of the franchise that you're reading - like a romantic comedy saying that humor and love stories are bad, or a drama saying that conflict should be avoided. A Batman character saying that Batman shouldn't exist - yeah, it's kind of like having a "stop having fun" character.
> 
> I had hope that Steph would come to a realization - the whole issue where she fights Wrath, and the first issue of Utopia/Distopia had her starting to realize her hypocrisy and starting to heal from the wound of Tim's death. But having Tim lie to her and go basically crazy trying to become Bat-Tim (to avoid becoming Bat-Tim...you know, I honestly see why Steph left. I hate it, but Tim was being incredibly unhealthy) meant that her real philosophical issues with Batman (not to mention her fundamental distrust of Batman based on her childhood in Batman Eternal #10) have NEVER been dealt with.
> 
> We NEED an issue where Steph and Bruce have a heart to heart - maybe a team up, but some kind of encounter where they both are able to say the truth to each other, and Steph can realize that she wants the same things Bruce does, and that he really is a hero and she can work with him and not against him. I think Tynion can absolutely write that issue.
> ...


In some ways that's what characters like Huntress and the Red Hood should be doing challenging his ways and ideals it would restore balance to the stories involving Batman. I was often pretty interested in those type of characters who bring balance to the narrative. In a way I see why fans have turned against Stephanie for saying Batman shouldn't exist when in a sense she is doing everything Batman is doing especially when she took out Wrath. Still with how Stephanie has now left the team it would be impossible for her issues to ever be addressed. Then again she does disappear on and off so she might be back and Tynion can right her. But why so worried is Tynion going to be taken off Detective Comics or something?

----------


## millernumber1

> In some ways that's what characters like Huntress and the Red Hood should be doing challenging his ways and ideals it would restore balance to the stories involving Batman. I was often pretty interested in those type of characters who bring balance to the narrative. In a way I see why fans have turned against Stephanie for saying Batman shouldn't exist when in a sense she is doing everything Batman is doing especially when she took out Wrath. Still with how Stephanie has now left the team it would be impossible for her issues to ever be addressed. Then again she does disappear on and off so she might be back and Tynion can right her. But why so worried is Tynion going to be taken off Detective Comics or something?


Excellent points. I really wish Huntress was interacting with Batman more these days. I think Steph has good points - but I don't think that her hypocrisy helps fans like her more (except for me  :Wink:  ), and there's a serious problem with Steph, who in Dixon and BQM's hands has always had a really strong element of loving fun and enjoying being a hero, becomes the "stop having fun" girl.

There have been two significant rumors that Tynion is leaving Tec, and he's doing way too many series right now - Tec, The Immortal Men, all the Metal tie-ins, and the NOPE JUSTICE stuff. Going by sales, he's pretty solid, and going by what he's said in the past, he wants to stay for another year to get to 1000. However, Gleason wanted to stay with Tomasi for 100 issues, and he is getting shifted to Action without Tomasi after only 40. So clearly sales/editorial has their own plans.  So the two rumors are really making me anxious (plus the fact that this last story arc, while having some incredibly strong issues, like 973, also has some really weak issues, like 974, and Steph's plot is clearly not working the way Tynion wants it to work, or he wouldn't be writing whiplash decisions for her).

Again, if Tynion gets a Gotham Knights title and Steph is part of it, I have no worries whatsoever. But if Steph is written off of Tec, and no one picks her up? I'm going to have some serious problems.

----------


## Blight

If anyone's been following the Cassandra thread, probably knows of Monolith doing a Batman board game called the Gotham City Chronicles where you can play various scenarios with the numerous heroes/villains of Gotham. Cass (as Orphan) was confirmed a week ago, but the box art for the game (drawn by David Finch) kind of also reveals Stephanie WILL be in the game too (so far only as Spoiler). It's possible she could also appear as Batgirl since the board game has revealed variant figures for Tim (Red Robin/Robin), Barbara (Batgirl/Oracle), Bruce, Selina (current/Long Halloween), and the Joker (Death of the Family/regular) so far). 

27993129_1348795038558809_5423527371537524847_o.jpg

But sadly no Cass on the box art.

----------


## millernumber1

> If anyone's been following the Cassandra thread, probably knows of Monolith doing a Batman board game called the Gotham City Chronicles where you can play various scenarios with the numerous heroes/villains of Gotham. Cass (as Orphan) was confirmed a week ago, but the box art for the game (drawn by David Finch) kind of also reveals Stephanie WILL be in the game too (so far only as Spoiler). It's possible she could also appear as Batgirl since the board game has revealed variant figures for Tim (Red Robin/Robin), Barbara (Batgirl/Oracle), Bruce, Selina (current/Long Halloween), and the Joker (Death of the Family/regular) so far). 
> 
> 27993129_1348795038558809_5423527371537524847_o.jpg
> 
> But sadly no Cass on the box art.


That's very exciting news! Here's a link to the full size image. I'm a bit confused as to the "official" status of this game, though - it's Kickstarting, but it's officially DC/WB product with official Batman artists on it?

https://twitter.com/Monolithedition/...25837274468354

----------


## millernumber1

With all the doom and gloom I'm feeling about Steph being written out of Tec, I thought this was a really nice, sweet fan interpretation of a moment from two issues ago:

http://silver-peel.tumblr.com/post/1...73-when-b-told

a.jpg

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## The Dying Detective

> Excellent points. I really wish Huntress was interacting with Batman more these days. I think Steph has good points - but I don't think that her hypocrisy helps fans like her more (except for me  ), and there's a serious problem with Steph, who in Dixon and BQM's hands has always had a really strong element of loving fun and enjoying being a hero, becomes the "stop having fun" girl.
> 
> There have been two significant rumors that Tynion is leaving Tec, and he's doing way too many series right now - Tec, The Immortal Men, all the Metal tie-ins, and the NOPE JUSTICE stuff. Going by sales, he's pretty solid, and going by what he's said in the past, he wants to stay for another year to get to 1000. However, Gleason wanted to stay with Tomasi for 100 issues, and he is getting shifted to Action without Tomasi after only 40. So clearly sales/editorial has their own plans.  So the two rumors are really making me anxious (plus the fact that this last story arc, while having some incredibly strong issues, like 973, also has some really weak issues, like 974, and Steph's plot is clearly not working the way Tynion wants it to work, or he wouldn't be writing whiplash decisions for her).
> 
> Again, if Tynion gets a Gotham Knights title and Steph is part of it, I have no worries whatsoever. But if Steph is written off of Tec, and no one picks her up? I'm going to have some serious problems.


Huntress was always more of Bird of Prey character so don't expect anything like that. Yeah Stephanie is just undermining her own point and I find it so odd that no one was calling her out on her hypocrisy. If only Tim's return wasn't tied to Oz Effect then fixing her could have been a lot faster. Still you'd think after helping the Victim Syndicate Stephanie would feel guilty and stick around to make amends. That is a lot to consider but it's a waste of time to worry about well anything if there's no confirmation at all really. Might as well wait and see what develops. I'd rather keep Detective Comics as it is but thena gain Action Comics should have also been rebranded as Superman when they began exclusively focusing on him.

----------


## millernumber1

> Huntress was always more of Bird of Prey character so don't expect anything like that. Yeah Stephanie is just undermining her own point and I find it so odd that no one was calling her out on her hypocrisy. If only Tim's return wasn't tied to Oz Effect then fixing her could have been a lot faster. Still you'd think after helping the Victim Syndicate Stephanie would feel guilty and stick around to make amends. That is a lot to consider but it's a waste of time to worry about well anything if there's no confirmation at all really. Might as well wait and see what develops. I'd rather keep Detective Comics as it is but thena gain Action Comics should have also been rebranded as Superman when they began exclusively focusing on him.


That's not really accurate. Huntress is a 1989 character (at least the Bertinelli version), and has existed outside of the Birds of Prey for much longer than she's been part of it (she was part of it from 2003-2008, 2010-2011, and 2016-2018). I would agree that her best incarnation is with the Birds of Prey, but she's much more a Batman character (all of the 90s) than a Bird. I think that because Huntress is basically the "property" of two teams these days - the Birds of Prey team, and Tim Seeley (who co-created the new version of Helena Bertinelli with Tom King in Grayson, and who is basically just putting Helena in every series he is writing - I'm just waiting for the Green Lanterns story with Helena...  :Smile:  ) she's not being used in the Batfamily as much. But if you look at the 90s, she was a huge presence in Batman comics - Batman Chronicles, Detective Comics, Robin. She's a massive part of No Man's Land, and a big part of Hush. I'm hoping that they'll give Seeley a Bat-title again (actually, I wouldn't mind him taking over Tec, because he likes to use Steph too), so Huntress can return to Gotham again.  :Smile: 

I think Steph did start recognizing her hypocrisy in Utopia/Distopia - Tynion just hasn't followed up on it at all.

The Oz Effect definitely showed the hampering of Tynion's story - he wanted to start bringing Tim back with The Button and League of Shadows/Intelligence, which you can see from the cover of the last issue of The Button, and the fact that originally, the end of League of Shadows would have referenced The Button and how Batman learned that Tim is alive, instead of having that happen six issues later in the last issue of Intelligence. That would also have allowed Tynion to get Steph back on the team before her hating superheros had become quite as entrenched.

All eyes are on Monday and the May solicits...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's not really accurate. Huntress is a 1989 character (at least the Bertinelli version), and has existed outside of the Birds of Prey for much longer than she's been part of it (she was part of it from 2003-2008, 2010-2011, and 2016-2018). I would agree that her best incarnation is with the Birds of Prey, but she's much more a Batman character (all of the 90s) than a Bird. I think that because Huntress is basically the "property" of two teams these days - the Birds of Prey team, and Tim Seeley (who co-created the new version of Helena Bertinelli with Tom King in Grayson, and who is basically just putting Helena in every series he is writing - I'm just waiting for the Green Lanterns story with Helena...  ) she's not being used in the Batfamily as much. But if you look at the 90s, she was a huge presence in Batman comics - Batman Chronicles, Detective Comics, Robin. She's a massive part of No Man's Land, and a big part of Hush. I'm hoping that they'll give Seeley a Bat-title again (actually, I wouldn't mind him taking over Tec, because he likes to use Steph too), so Huntress can return to Gotham again. 
> 
> I think Steph did start recognizing her hypocrisy in Utopia/Distopia - Tynion just hasn't followed up on it at all.
> 
> The Oz Effect definitely showed the hampering of Tynion's story - he wanted to start bringing Tim back with The Button and League of Shadows/Intelligence, which you can see from the cover of the last issue of The Button, and the fact that originally, the end of League of Shadows would have referenced The Button and how Batman learned that Tim is alive, instead of having that happen six issues later in the last issue of Intelligence. That would also have allowed Tynion to get Steph back on the team before her hating superheros had become quite as entrenched.
> 
> All eyes are on Monday and the May solicits...



Huh I did not know that still what's interesting is how the New 52 Helena Bertinelli has dark skin but retains her Italian heritage is that odd? One guy I know ranted on his blog about Helena's skin change and he wasn't happy and accused DC of race lifting. She's going to appear in Green Lanterns? Maybe she can help give Jessica tips on dating Dick or just tell her to stay away from him. I admit as much those who love Stephanie and Tim being together how well done was it when throughout the New 52 they barely interacted? It feels kind of forced because it didn't have the same build up they had in Post-Crisis. And as busy as Tynion maybe it's kind of odd that instead of following up on Stephanie realising that she is being a hypocrite after the destruction of Gotham. I can't believe Tynion was forced to stretch it out though. What's happening in May will indeed make or break Detective Comics just hope whatever he's been doing for Metal, the New Age of DC Superheroes, and No Justice is done by now.

----------


## millernumber1

> Huh I did not know that still what's interesting is how the New 52 Helena Bertinelli has dark skin but retains her Italian heritage is that odd? One guy I know ranted on his blog about Helena's skin change and he wasn't happy and accused DC of race lifting. She's going to appear in Green Lanterns? Maybe she can help give Jessica tips on dating Dick or just tell her to stay away from him. I admit as much those who love Stephanie and Tim being together how well done was it when throughout the New 52 they barely interacted? It feels kind of forced because it didn't have the same build up they had in Post-Crisis. And as busy as Tynion maybe it's kind of odd that instead of following up on Stephanie realising that she is being a hypocrite after the destruction of Gotham. I can't believe Tynion was forced to stretch it out though. What's happening in May will indeed make or break Detective Comics just hope whatever he's been doing for Metal, the New Age of DC Superheroes, and No Justice is done by now.


I mean, I don't want to get too far into my OTHER favorite purple-clad Gotham vigilante (she has her own appreciation thread here that needs love! http://community.comicbookresources....s-Appreciation). But short version: yes, she's the same character. Like Steph and Cass, she was erased in the n52, but it was much, much more offensive, because they wrote a Huntress miniseries teasing fans that she was still alive, but then it turned out it was Earth 2 Helena Wayne. (I'm still mad.) Then Tim Seeley introduced her at the end of Nightwing/beginning of Grayson as the head of Spyral's academy for girl assassins, and after he left Grayson, he brought her into Nightwing for an arc. He's also bringing her into Hellblazer for an arc (I'm probably going to buy that as well, since Seeley writes a pretty great Helena, I think.) I have no confirmation on whether Seeley's going to use her in Green Lanterns - I'm just making a joke based on his previous work.

After Batman Eternal, when Steph and Tim flirted in the very last issue, I was really bummed that not even Batman and Robin Eternal really did anything with that relationship. I'm really glad Tynion decided to put them back together, but I wish he'd done it in Batman and Robin Eternal - have them get closer in that series - instead of just surprising us in the second issue of Tec.

I'm still really unsure of why they changed The Button. That whole miniseries was so pointless without the reveal that Tim was alive.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, I don't want to get too far into my OTHER favorite purple-clad Gotham vigilante (she has her own appreciation thread here that needs love! http://community.comicbookresources....s-Appreciation). But short version: yes, she's the same character. Like Steph and Cass, she was erased in the n52, but it was much, much more offensive, because they wrote a Huntress miniseries teasing fans that she was still alive, but then it turned out it was Earth 2 Helena Wayne. (I'm still mad.) Then Tim Seeley introduced her at the end of Nightwing/beginning of Grayson as the head of Spyral's academy for girl assassins, and after he left Grayson, he brought her into Nightwing for an arc. He's also bringing her into Hellblazer for an arc (I'm probably going to buy that as well, since Seeley writes a pretty great Helena, I think.) I have no confirmation on whether Seeley's going to use her in Green Lanterns - I'm just making a joke based on his previous work.
> 
> After Batman Eternal, when Steph and Tim flirted in the very last issue, I was really bummed that not even Batman and Robin Eternal really did anything with that relationship. I'm really glad Tynion decided to put them back together, but I wish he'd done it in Batman and Robin Eternal - have them get closer in that series - instead of just surprising us in the second issue of Tec.
> 
> I'm still really unsure of why they changed The Button. That whole miniseries was so pointless without the reveal that Tim was alive.


Nah I just wondered whether others thought when Helena Bertinelli was reintroduced people thought she was race lifted aside from that this guy I know Shawn James who ranted about it on his blog. Okay still it might be fun to see Helena give Jessica advice about Dick. I heard about Stephanie and Tim's flirtations but yeah why couldn't Tynion use her or did it have something to with Tim being on the Teen Titans? The original plan was to show that Tim Drake was alive? Why did they change the Button to simply kick off Doomsday Clock?

----------


## millernumber1

> Nah I just wondered whether others thought when Helena Bertinelli was reintroduced people thought she was race lifted aside from that this guy I know Shawn James who ranted about it on his blog. Okay still it might be fun to see Helena give Jessica advice about Dick. I heard about Stephanie and Tim's flirtations but yeah why couldn't Tynion use her or did it have something to with Tim being on the Teen Titans? The original plan was to show that Tim Drake was alive? Why did they change the Button to simply kick off Doomsday Clock?


Oh, it's still a fairly hot issue in Huntress fandom. All three of us.  :Smile: 

I think Tynion was trying to tell Harper's story too much, and it ate all of Steph's room.

Yes, the original plan was for Tim Drake to be revealed to Batman in The Button, and Tec was going to reference that. I have ZERO clues why they changed it - the event was so limp without that reveal. It had some feel good moments, but otherwise it was completely filler. A four issue preview for Doomsday Clock.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, it's still a fairly hot issue in Huntress fandom. All three of us. 
> 
> I think Tynion was trying to tell Harper's story too much, and it ate all of Steph's room.
> 
> Yes, the original plan was for Tim Drake to be revealed to Batman in The Button, and Tec was going to reference that. I have ZERO clues why they changed it - the event was so limp without that reveal. It had some feel good moments, but otherwise it was completely filler. A four issue preview for Doomsday Clock.


Yet Helena Bertinelli is still Italian and they only changed her skin to allegedly avoid her being confused with Helena Wayne. Harper Row looked too flat to be a very interesting character honestly So I'm not sure why she got the spotlight. It does seem odd to change the plan still I saw no reason why they couldn't do both Doomsday Clock, Tim Drake's return, and the revelation that Jay Garrick was trapped in the Speedforce in the Button any way.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yet Helena Bertinelli is still Italian and they only changed her skin to allegedly avoid her being confused with Helena Wayne. Harper Row looked too flat to be a very interesting character honestly So I'm not sure why she got the spotlight. It does seem odd to change the plan still I saw no reason why they couldn't do both Doomsday Clock, Tim Drake's return, and the revelation that Jay Garrick was trapped in the Speedforce in the Button any way.


I liked Harper okay, but I hate what Tynion did with her, making her Cass's best friend and Tim's trainee, instead of Steph. And Batman Eternal #51, much as I love that series so much, was incredibly terrible.

But I agree - they could have done The Button much better. But I have no idea what the editors were juggling.

----------


## Godlike13

I think Harper might have gotten a better reception if they tried to tell her story in the proper places, rather then say something titled Batman and Robin Eternal.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Harper might have gotten a better reception if they tried to tell her story in the proper places, rather then say something titled Batman and Robin Eternal.


People say that a lot. I think it might have been nice to see Harper's story told in We Are Robin - her attitude would have fit better with that group. But Tynion wasn't writing We Are Robin, and Harper was in many ways his character - he was a big part of co-writing her first appearance in Batman #12. Snyder seems to regret not taking more control over Harper's narrative, comparing her story ending fairly conclusively (for at least three years) with what he wants to do with Duke (though he continues to refuse to actually write Duke's story solo, which is what I think it really needs, instead of backups or secondary characters.)

Anyway - I'm kicking myself for not asking Tynion is Harper was indeed created in response to the inability to use Steph or Cass. People keep repeating that rumor, but it's never been nailed down to a specific time or interview, so I don't trust it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I liked Harper okay, but I hate what Tynion did with her, making her Cass's best friend and Tim's trainee, instead of Steph. And Batman Eternal #51, much as I love that series so much, was incredibly terrible.
> 
> But I agree - they could have done The Button much better. But I have no idea what the editors were juggling.


It did seem pretty awful to have Harper take over Stephanie's role when it would be more prudent to re-establish Stephanie's place in the Batfamily and I don't really hate Harper Row but due to the glut load of characters I'm kind of expecting her to just vanish into the background. Maybe it was impossible for Tim to call out to Bruce when they were travelling through Hypertime but then agian their destination was not Mr. Oz's hideaway it was Doctor Manhattan's so there might not have been a way for Batman to reach Tim during the Button.

----------


## adrikito

> I liked Harper okay, but *I hate what Tynion did with her, making her Cass's best friend and Tim's trainee, instead of Steph.*.


DAMN.... I forgot her.... I HATE THAT TOO..  :Mad: 

Seems that I will only return in Cass saga... And then goodbye again, detective comics.. Even if Cass is here, I don´t want a new Bat-team without Steph, with Harper and maybe even D..ke...

----------


## millernumber1

> It did seem pretty awful to have Harper take over Stephanie's role when it would be more prudent to re-establish Stephanie's place in the Batfamily and I don't really hate Harper Row but due to the glut load of characters I'm kind of expecting her to just vanish into the background. Maybe it was impossible for Tim to call out to Bruce when they were travelling through Hypertime but then agian their destination was not Mr. Oz's hideaway it was Doctor Manhattan's so there might not have been a way for Batman to reach Tim during the Button.


I don't hate Harper either, but I do hate that particular consequence of DC's ban on Steph and Cass. Tynion has promised she's coming back - I'm hoping in The Immortal Men, because that would mean she's probably safely out of Steph and Cass and Tim's way. Or maybe NOPE JUSTICE.

The whole time travel thing makes no sense anyway, so why not have Bruce find out about Tim?  :Smile: 




> DAMN.... I forgot her.... I HATE THAT TOO.. 
> 
> Seems that I will only return in Cass saga... And then goodbye again, detective comics.. Even if Cass is here, I don´t want a new Bat-team without Steph, with Harper and maybe even D..ke...


I just wish they could do something with Harper that wouldn't get between Steph, Cass, and Tim. I would like her just fine if they could do that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't hate Harper either, but I do hate that particular consequence of DC's ban on Steph and Cass. Tynion has promised she's coming back - I'm hoping in The Immortal Men, because that would mean she's probably safely out of Steph and Cass and Tim's way. Or maybe NOPE JUSTICE.
> 
> The whole time travel thing makes no sense anyway, so why not have Bruce find out about Tim?


Anything goes I would say though I've seen the line for the teams on No Justice Stephanie is not one of them. The Immortal Men might be out of Stephanie's depth because she's a street level heroine the Immortal Men are fantasy based characters she'll be slaughtered working with them. She's much safer in Detective Comics so she'll probably be there after she finally gets some sense talked into her. Well when you think about it the goal was to reach Doctor Manhattan not Mr. Oz it might not make sense to bring back Tim Drake when their objective is to get to Doctor Manhattan.

----------


## millernumber1

> Anything goes I would say though I've seen the line for the teams on No Justice Stephanie is not one of them. The Immortal Men might be out of Stephanie's depth because she's a street level heroine the Immortal Men are fantasy based characters she'll be slaughtered working with them. She's much safer in Detective Comics so she'll probably be there after she finally gets some sense talked into her. Well when you think about it the goal was to reach Doctor Manhattan not Mr. Oz it might not make sense to bring back Tim Drake when their objective is to get to Doctor Manhattan.


Oh, I don't think I'd really want to see Steph trying to do silly things with fantasy/god characters. I love her interaction with Gotham.

I just think the whole thing with Mr. Oz still doesn't make sense. But then, I didn't read the Action part of that story, so...whatevs.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, I don't think I'd really want to see Steph trying to do silly things with fantasy/god characters. I love her interaction with Gotham.
> 
> I just think the whole thing with Mr. Oz still doesn't make sense. But then, I didn't read the Action part of that story, so...whatevs.


Then again Stephanie did join the Teen Titans for a while back in Post Crisis but the things the Immortal Men deal with might be too strong for her. Tim was going to Ivy which would have lead him to Ryan Choi and they might figure who messed up the DC Universe much quicker so Mr. Oz took him off the board to prevent it from happening. And Doctor Manhattan took Jor-El from Krypton just as it blew up to turn him into a tool to break Superman.

----------


## millernumber1

> Then again Stephanie did join the Teen Titans for a while back in Post Crisis but the things the Immortal Men deal with might be too strong for her. Tim was going to Ivy which would have lead him to Ryan Choi and they might figure who messed up the DC Universe much quicker so Mr. Oz took him off the board to prevent it from happening. And Doctor Manhattan took Jor-El from Krypton just as it blew up to turn him into a tool to break Superman.


Well, I should say that I don't think even Batman belongs on the Justice League, for so many reasons.  :Smile: 

In other news, one of my favorite Steph fanfic series: A Different Game, in which Steph was the Robin who died and became the Red Hood, has a new update - from Batman's perspective, and it's everything I could have wished!

https://archiveofourown.org/works/13709304

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I should say that I don't think even Batman belongs on the Justice League, for so many reasons. 
> 
> In other news, one of my favorite Steph fanfic series: A Different Game, in which Steph was the Robin who died and became the Red Hood, has a new update - from Batman's perspective, and it's everything I could have wished!
> 
> https://archiveofourown.org/works/13709304


Yet both Stephanie and Batman survive and continue to survive their tenure's on either team, hahahaha! Still if Mr. Tynion is unable to fix Stephanie I will but it will require some intense character study. In fact i already have a plan for her mainly to be Spoiler and Tim Drake's partner in fighting crime in a different city. Additional supporting cast members will include Tim's best friend Ives, Tamara Fox, and Lynx III. Okay I might check it if I have the time.

----------


## adrikito

Best friends:

batgirl cassandra cain stephanie brown.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Best friends:
> 
> Attachment 62187


I love it!

----------


## millernumber1

> That's very exciting news! Here's a link to the full size image. I'm a bit confused as to the "official" status of this game, though - it's Kickstarting, but it's officially DC/WB product with official Batman artists on it?
> 
> https://twitter.com/Monolithedition/...25837274468354


Sandra Hope, veteran inker, shows the linework on David Finch's inks for this game box cover. Her favorite is Batgirl (and I have to say, I think that a lot of the problem with the new Batgirl costume is how it's drawn - I think Finch does a solid job of making it fit with the rest of the Batfamily), but she also shows The Best Hero Ever, too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9semzCJ9Po&t=0s

----------


## adrikito

> View Post
> That's very exciting news! Here's a link to the full size image. I'm a bit confused as to the "official" status of this game, though - it's Kickstarting, but it's officially DC/WB product with official Batman artists on it?
> 
> https://twitter.com/Monolithedition/...25837274468354


WOW... I like this, Steph is here...

What a shame that Cass is not here.. She would replace Lark(I know his other alias, but I hate the other name)..

----------


## millernumber1

> WOW... I like this, Steph is here...
> 
> What a shame that Cass is not here.. She would replace Lark(I know his other alias, but I hate the other name)..


Cass is going to be in the game, just not on the cover. I'm really excited - I hope I can spare the money for this - it looks like it's going to be $130 or thereabouts.

I would be so excited to finally have a game that features Steph as a playable character!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Cass is going to be in the game, just not on the cover. I'm really excited - I hope I can spare the money for this - it looks like it's going to be $130 or thereabouts.
> 
> I would be so excited to finally have a game that features Steph as a playable character!


What is this game?

----------


## millernumber1

> What is this game?


It's a kind of complex strategy/combat board game with miniatures. It's going to be a kickstarter - I'm probably going to be posting links when they come up if they feature Steph!

I hope it's a bit more transparent and enjoyable than the time I tried to figure out the rules for Heroclix. I have both Steph figurines for HeroClix (Batgirl and Spoiler, plus a bunch of the Birds of Prey and Cass), but the rules just don't make any sense to me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's a kind of complex strategy/combat board game with miniatures. It's going to be a kickstarter - I'm probably going to be posting links when they come up if they feature Steph!
> 
> I hope it's a bit more transparent and enjoyable than the time I tried to figure out the rules for Heroclix. I have both Steph figurines for HeroClix (Batgirl and Spoiler, plus a bunch of the Birds of Prey and Cass), but the rules just don't make any sense to me.


Sounds involved is DC backing this kickstarter game?

----------


## millernumber1

> Sounds involved is DC backing this kickstarter game?


Yup - it's authorized, and has David Finch doing cover art!

----------


## adrikito

> Cass is going to be in the game, just not on the cover. I'm really excited - I hope I can spare the money for this - it looks like it's going to be $130 or thereabouts.
> 
> I would be so excited to finally have a game that features Steph as a playable character!


What a shame that she is not in the cover.. She is more important than him.... I voted your comment here:




> Sandra Hope, veteran inker, shows the linework on David Finch's inks for this game box cover. 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9semzCJ9Po&t=0s

----------


## millernumber1

> What a shame that she is not in the cover.. She is more important than him.... I voted your comment here:


Who is Cass more important than?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yup - it's authorized, and has David Finch doing cover art!


He sounds like a really good artist. And what's HeroClix anyway?

----------


## millernumber1

> He sounds like a really good artist. And what's HeroClix anyway?


David Finch is one of DC's top artists - he was one of the two main Batman artists during the Rebirth launch, and he was the creator of the Batman: The Dark Knight title during the n52 era. He also did illustration for Wonder Woman at the end of the n52, and did a bunch of collaboration with Bendis in the mid 2000s (on stuff like the New Avengers). He's not my favorite, but he's definitely one of the best in the Jim Lee style of drawing working today.

HeroClix (https://wizkids.com/heroclix/) is a tabletop miniatures game featuring superheros from both of the Big Two. I bought a copy of their Batgirl pack (https://wizkids.com/heroclix/dc-comi...oclix-batgirl/) a year or so ago, though I'd already bought the Steph figure solo (now I have two - one for home, one for work! Show the Steph love everywhere!)

----------


## adrikito

> Who is Cass more important than?


D..ke.. You should know that..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> David Finch is one of DC's top artists - he was one of the two main Batman artists during the Rebirth launch, and he was the creator of the Batman: The Dark Knight title during the n52 era. He also did illustration for Wonder Woman at the end of the n52, and did a bunch of collaboration with Bendis in the mid 2000s (on stuff like the New Avengers). He's not my favorite, but he's definitely one of the best in the Jim Lee style of drawing working today.
> 
> HeroClix (https://wizkids.com/heroclix/) is a tabletop miniatures game featuring superheros from both of the Big Two. I bought a copy of their Batgirl pack (https://wizkids.com/heroclix/dc-comi...oclix-batgirl/) a year or so ago, though I'd already bought the Steph figure solo (now I have two - one for home, one for work! Show the Steph love everywhere!)


People seem to love to keep the 90's alive even though they are over. Still he does do good work from what I saw in the video. What were the problems about HeroClix? And also I was thiking about tha told Marvel vs DC crossover comic and I wondered who would Stephanie fight if she was part of it? My pick is Shadowcat.

----------


## millernumber1

> D..ke.. You should know that..


Oh, oops.  :Smile: 




> People seem to love to keep the 90's alive even though they are over. Still he does do good work from what I saw in the video. What were the problems about HeroClix? And also I was thiking about tha told Marvel vs DC crossover comic and I wondered who would Stephanie fight if she was part of it? My pick is Shadowcat.


I mean, it's no more obnoxious that movies and tv trying to keep the 80s alive.  :Smile: 

HeroClix just seemed really hard to figure out, ruleswise.

I think Steph would try to fight one of the Spider-Girl type characters.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, it's no more obnoxious that movies and tv trying to keep the 80s alive.


I'm unfamiliar how do the movies and TV try to keep the 80's alive? Still the 90's of comics weren't that great you had the tasteless 90's anti-heroes and the comic book crash.




> HeroClix just seemed really hard to figure out, ruleswise.


How hard were the rules?




> I think Steph would try to fight one of the Spider-Girl type characters.


Which one Mayday or Arana?

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm unfamiliar how do the movies and TV try to keep the 80's alive? Still the 90's of comics weren't that great you had the tasteless 90's anti-heroes and the comic book crash.
> 
> How hard were the rules?
> 
> Which one Mayday or Arana?


Stranger Things? Heck, Doomsday Clock, Before Watchmen, and Dark Knight 3 are an example of comics doing it. The Star Wars sequels. Wreck-It Ralph.

I dunno - I tried reading them, and glazed over. And I enjoy a good complicated game. But the whole click wheel thing doesn't really work for me, I think.

I was thinking more Silk, actually.  :Smile:  Or Annie from Renew Your Vows. I know, I'm a terrible Spider-Man fan.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Stranger Things? Heck, Doomsday Clock, Before Watchmen, and Dark Knight 3 are an example of comics doing it. The Star Wars sequels. Wreck-It Ralph.


How are these examples of the 80's being kept alive?




> I dunno - I tried reading them, and glazed over. And I enjoy a good complicated game. But the whole click wheel thing doesn't really work for me, I think.


What does the click wheel do?




> I was thinking more Silk, actually.  Or Annie from Renew Your Vows. I know, I'm a terrible Spider-Man fan.


It's cool there are so many spider people in Marvel it's like an infestation but why Silk? And Annie might have an unfair advantage if she's still a kid.

----------


## millernumber1

> How are these examples of the 80's being kept alive?
> 
> What does the click wheel do?
> 
> It's cool there are so many spider people in Marvel it's like an infestation but why Silk? And Annie might have an unfair advantage if she's still a kid.


Well, they're trying to keep the ethos, events, fashion, etc of the 80s alive. Seems like the same thing as the New Age of Heroes keeping the 90s alive.

The click wheel keeps track of your hit points, attack points, and whatnot. When you get hit, you click downward on the track and are less powerful.

I dunno. Silk and Annie just feel more like Steph's speed than Mayday or Arana (or Mattie, RIP. I'm still so mad about Mattie.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, they're trying to keep the ethos, events, fashion, etc of the 80s alive. Seems like the same thing as the New Age of Heroes keeping the 90s alive.


I'll admit I am not familiar with the 80's but if what your saying is true entertains doesn't know how to progress. Still some of the New Age of DC Superheroes do look cool to me Ghost Fist and Sideways.




> The click wheel keeps track of your hit points, attack points, and whatnot. When you get hit, you click downward on the track and are less powerful.


Sounds straight forward enough though what so difficult about it?




> I dunno. Silk and Annie just feel more like Steph's speed than Mayday or Arana (or Mattie, RIP. I'm still so mad about Mattie.)


Why is it because they're Stephanie's age?

----------


## millernumber1

> I'll admit I am not familiar with the 80's but if what your saying is true entertains doesn't know how to progress. Still some of the New Age of DC Superheroes do look cool to me Ghost Fist and Sideways.
> 
> Sounds straight forward enough though what so difficult about it?
> 
> Why is it because they're Stephanie's age?


I mean, all art and entertainment has been built on the foundations of the previous generation. However, I do think that 80s nostalgia goes beyond building and moves towards recreation. Which annoys me. The New Age of Heroes seems like it's more inspired by - built upon, rather than recreation.

I didn't understand how the whole damage dealing and movement and everything worked. And it was too many numbers, not enough tiny plastic pieces that look like my favorite characters.  :Smile:  (Also, my bandwidth for miniatures games is pretty limited.)

I dunno exactly why I think those Spider-Girls are more Steph's speed. It's possible I just like them more?

----------


## Frontier

I think Mayday probably would've been the type of person Steph would've seen as an older sibling/mentor way, like Babs maybe.

----------


## Dataweaver

Why? They're there same age.

----------


## Frontier

> Why? They're there same age.


True, but I think Mayday carried herself older as Spider-Girl, though I guess it would probably have depended on when in Mayday's career she would've met her.

----------


## Dataweaver

Eh. Both started out young and then matured. Stephanie-as-Batgirl would have been very much on the same level as Mayday had reached by the end of her run.

----------


## Blight

New Stephanie action figure due out from Mattel later this year.

Toy-Fair-2018-Mattel-DC-040.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> new stephanie action figure due out from mattel later this year.
> 
> Toy-Fair-2018-Mattel-DC-040.jpg


wait wut. Where?

----------


## EMarie

> wait wut. Where?


I think it's going to be a Wal-Mart exclusive.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think it's going to be a Wal-Mart exclusive.


Okay, here's what I found after FRANTIC STEPH GOOGLING!

http://thefwoosh.com/index.php/2018/...live-coverage/

Steph Action Figure.jpg

----------


## adrikito

Damian and Steph:




> duss005:
> 
> damian doesnt have time for you crap, steph





> New Stephanie action figure due out from Mattel later this year.
> 
> Toy-Fair-2018-Mattel-DC-040.jpg


AMAZING.. I Like this figure.  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, all art and entertainment has been built on the foundations of the previous generation. However, I do think that 80s nostalgia goes beyond building and moves towards recreation. Which annoys me. The New Age of Heroes seems like it's more inspired by - built upon, rather than recreation.


Well that is a dangerous thing to be trapped in the past but that's good point for the New Age of DC Superheroes I look forward to a lot of them particularly Sideways which is the Spider-Man story Marvel is not publishing.




> I didn't understand how the whole damage dealing and movement and everything worked. And it was too many numbers, not enough tiny plastic pieces that look like my favorite characters.  (Also, my bandwidth for miniatures games is pretty limited.)


And how does the wheel make difficult? And with too many numbers you'd think HeroClix was a bad product to sell.




> I dunno exactly why I think those Spider-Girls are more Steph's speed. It's possible I just like them more?


Nothing wrong that but how do envision a fight between Stephanie and Silk or Annie would go?

----------


## millernumber1

> Damian and Steph:
> 
> AMAZING.. I Like this figure.


Classic Dustin Nguyen Steph!

And I'm so excited about this figure - I need to figure out the best way to find out when it's available, so it doesn't become the $200 Batgirl figure, never to be added to my collection.




> And how does the wheel make difficult? And with too many numbers you'd think HeroClix was a bad product to sell.
> 
> Nothing wrong that but how do envision a fight between Stephanie and Silk or Annie would go?


The wheel is only difficult because of all the numbers that I don't know what they mean. There's tons of spread-sheety games that are really popular - Eve Online, Warhammer 40k. I think HeroClix is partly so popular because of the sheer number and variety of the miniatures, though.

I think Steph would use a ton of gooperangs and maybe some icerangs, to slow Spider-Girl/Silk/Spiderling down. She'd also have to make sure she had some solvent in her utility belt (or maybe her thigh belt - not empty for once!) to deal with the webbing. Having Oracle or Proxy on overwatch would be important, since the spider-powers would likely make her opponent a bit faster than her normal opponents - though she has fought a speedster before.

I'm not completely sure what the endgame would be, since I don't think they would actually want to fight each other. Though I would probably have to check out her fights with the mind-controlled heros during The Flood to see what more likely techniques she could use would be.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The wheel is only difficult because of all the numbers that I don't know what they mean. There's tons of spread-sheety games that are really popular - Eve Online, Warhammer 40k. I think HeroClix is partly so popular because of the sheer number and variety of the miniatures, though.
> 
> I think Steph would use a ton of gooperangs and maybe some icerangs, to slow Spider-Girl/Silk/Spiderling down. She'd also have to make sure she had some solvent in her utility belt (or maybe her thigh belt - not empty for once!) to deal with the webbing. Having Oracle or Proxy on overwatch would be important, since the spider-powers would likely make her opponent a bit faster than her normal opponents - though she has fought a speedster before.
> 
> I'm not completely sure what the endgame would be, since I don't think they would actually want to fight each other. Though I would probably have to check out her fights with the mind-controlled heros during The Flood to see what more likely techniques she could use would be.


How does Hero Clix even sell? Or was it discontinued? If you read Marvel vs DC two god-like brothers who created both universes forced their heroes to fight each other or be destroyed that's the only way Stephanie might fight Silk or Annie. If the rule state Stephanie cannot get assistance I don't think she can rely on Oracle or Proxy to help her. Though Captain America was defeated in fight against Batman because the sewer they were fighting in flooded and Captain America was rendered unconscious allowing Batman to claim the win.

----------


## millernumber1

> How does Hero Clix even sell? Or was it discontinued? If you read Marvel vs DC two god-like brothers who created both universes forced their heroes to fight each other or be destroyed that's the only way Stephanie might fight Silk or Annie. If the rule state Stephanie cannot get assistance I don't think she can rely on Oracle or Proxy to help her. Though Captain America was defeated in fight against Batman because the sewer they were fighting in flooded and Captain America was rendered unconscious allowing Batman to claim the win.


As far as I can tell, it's still going on. I just buy the ones of characters I like, like the Birds of Prey, and of course Steph (because I'm not at the point where I'll shell out $200 for the regular sized action figure).

Hmm. I haven't read Marvel vs. DC. Honestly, I don't really like hero-vs-hero matchups that well. I'd rather see Steph maybe have a misunderstanding with whatever Spider-Girl she happens to meet, and then they team up. That would be much cooler.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> As far as I can tell, it's still going on. I just buy the ones of characters I like, like the Birds of Prey, and of course Steph (because I'm not at the point where I'll shell out $200 for the regular sized action figure).
> 
> Hmm. I haven't read Marvel vs. DC. Honestly, I don't really like hero-vs-hero matchups that well. I'd rather see Steph maybe have a misunderstanding with whatever Spider-Girl she happens to meet, and then they team up. That would be much cooler.


They probably use HeroClix as a means to sell more figures at cheaper rates. Well in Marvel vs DC Tim Drake got into the action and his opponent was Jubilee who had a crush on him and vice versa they even kissed before the their fight began. Tim won the fight and after he and Jubilee were somehow sent to Paris where they started to date only for to be pulled apart when their worlds which had merged separated. And to this day I often wondered what a long term relationship between Tim and Jubilee would look like. Too bad they met again but Tim was dating Ariana.

----------


## millernumber1

> They probably use HeroClix as a means to sell more figures at cheaper rates. Well in Marvel vs DC Tim Drake got into the action and his opponent was Jubilee who had a crush on him and vice versa they even kissed before the their fight began. Tim won the fight and after he and Jubilee were somehow sent to Paris where they started to date only for to be pulled apart when their worlds which had merged separated. And to this day I often wondered what a long term relationship between Tim and Jubilee would look like. Too bad they met again but Tim was dating Ariana.


I don't really understand the DC Merchandising plan or targets. Since they just announced the new Spoiler Steph figure (and at this stage, I'm planning on buying two - one for home, one for work), I've been doing some research, and it's a labyrinthine world. But HeroClix being a game, I'm not quite sure how it gets classed with collectibles and toys. But I definitely treat them like collectibles  :Smile: 

That does sound rather like what I would be thinking of for Steph in a Marvel vs. DC crossover - ending up friendly.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't really understand the DC Merchandising plan or targets. Since they just announced the new Spoiler Steph figure (and at this stage, I'm planning on buying two - one for home, one for work), I've been doing some research, and it's a labyrinthine world. But HeroClix being a game, I'm not quite sure how it gets classed with collectibles and toys. But I definitely treat them like collectibles


With the way they announce these figure it sure works like downloadable content on a console game. And it sure seems like stealth method to sell collectibles.




> That does sound rather like what I would be thinking of for Steph in a Marvel vs. DC crossover - ending up friendly.


If Stephanie was around during the first Marvel vs DC crossover she wouldn't like it if she knew that Tim was teleported to Jubilee's room. And I think she would fight her to the death.

----------


## Harpsikord

> If Stephanie was around during the first Marvel vs DC crossover she wouldn't like it if she knew that Tim was teleported to Jubilee's room. And I think she would fight her to the death.


Oh totally. There'd be eye scratching.

steph would win tbh

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh totally. There'd be eye scratching.
> 
> steph would win tbh


Jubilee has powers and can blind her with them though hahaha!

----------


## Harpsikord

> Jubilee has powers and can blind her with them though hahaha!


Steph is a batfamily member, that's no advantage :P

----------


## millernumber1

> With the way they announce these figure it sure works like downloadable content on a console game. And it sure seems like stealth method to sell collectibles.
> 
> If Stephanie was around during the first Marvel vs DC crossover she wouldn't like it if she knew that Tim was teleported to Jubilee's room. And I think she would fight her to the death.


You're probably right. I'm not super up on the collectibles market, since I really only buy collectibles that have meaning to me external to their collectibility, and don't try to complete sets or resell them.

Actually, Steph was around in 1996. She was created in 1992 (last year was her quarter century anniversary! Hooray!), and by 1996 was indeed pursuing Tim, though they wouldn't official date for at least two more years.




> Oh totally. There'd be eye scratching.
> 
> steph would win tbh


Well, I like to think she'd win. This is the Steph thread, after all.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph is a batfamily member, that's no advantage :P


Yeah your right and I remember how Jubilee and Tim's fight ended ahaha! It might go the same way with Stephanie if she isn't mad with jealousy.

----------


## Assam

> Still the 90's of comics weren't that great you had the tasteless 90's anti-heroes and the comic book crash.



I really hate the bad rap the 90's get. Sure, Marvel was mostly crap and the indie scene was a mess, but DC, as we've had several threads about, was doing amazing. Sure, some books were still crap and some of the clliches of the era did work their way into even good books, but on the whole, they were putting out great book after great book and really moving their universe forward. Far as I'm concerned, the 90's, going into the early 2000's, is DC's best era. 




> I think Mayday probably would've been the type of person Steph would've seen as an older sibling/mentor way, like Babs maybe.


Personally, I think the best match-ups, personality wise, for the Batgirls against Spiders, would be: Babs and Jessica Drew, Cass and Mayday (Who I've been reading more and more of and now love with all my heart) and Steph and Spider-Gwen. 




> New Stephanie action figure due out from Mattel later this year.


Between this and what's come before, I really hope this means all the Knights will get figures. 




> steph would win tbh


BatgirlSteph maybe, but I can't see 90's Spoiler taking it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Between this and what's come before, I really hope this means all the Knights will get figures. 
> 
> BatgirlSteph maybe, but I can't see 90's Spoiler taking it.


I hope so too!

As for who would win - I really think it depends on who's writing.  :Smile:

----------


## Harpsikord

> BatgirlSteph maybe, but I can't see 90's Spoiler taking it.


Against 80s/90s Jubilee? I can. She was basically useless.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You're probably right. I'm not super up on the collectibles market, since I really only buy collectibles that have meaning to me external to their collectibility, and don't try to complete sets or resell them.


At least DC and Marvel will get more money than having to prompt people buy the whole set since HeroClix allows more leeway for players to decide on whether or not they want certain figure without feeling forced to buy the whole set just so they can play the game




> Actually, Steph was around in 1996. She was created in 1992 (last year was her quarter century anniversary! Hooray!), and by 1996 was indeed pursuing Tim, though they wouldn't official date for at least two more years.


Makes me wish Stephanie was in the Batcave and was teleported with Tim to Jubilee's room I can imagine the tension building as Jubilee complements Tim's wardrobe.

----------


## millernumber1

> At least DC and Marvel will get more money than having to prompt people buy the whole set since HeroClix allows more leeway for players to decide on whether or not they want certain figure without feeling forced to buy the whole set just so they can play the game
> 
> Makes me wish Stephanie was in the Batcave and was teleported with Tim to Jubilee's room I can imagine the tension building as Jubilee complements Tim's wardrobe.


Except HeroClix follows the miniatures sales pattern of blind bags, so you don't know what you're buying unless you go for the secondary market or get the "battle ready packs." So...it's still a ripoff. Unless, as stated, buying on secondary market. Which I recommend! (I'm also really tempted to buy the really cool HeroClix Batcave. Cause it's really cool.  :Smile: 

I dunno if Steph had been invited to the Batcave yet. I thought that wasn't until after she learned Tim's real name, in the late 90s.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Except HeroClix follows the miniatures sales pattern of blind bags, so you don't know what you're buying unless you go for the secondary market or get the "battle ready packs." So...it's still a ripoff. Unless, as stated, buying on secondary market. Which I recommend! (I'm also really tempted to buy the really cool HeroClix Batcave. Cause it's really cool. 
> 
> I dunno if Steph had been invited to the Batcave yet. I thought that wasn't until after she learned Tim's real name, in the late 90s.


Blind bag figures are definitely a risk if you're looking for a certain character but what if the secondary market doesn't stock the figures you want? Given how afterward in a later where Tim and Jubilee meet again Tim is dating Ariana Dzerchenko. I don't think Stephanie had evens set foot in the Batcave at the time still it's nice to dream if she and Jubilee fought in Marvel vs DC.

----------


## millernumber1

> Blind bag figures are definitely a risk if you're looking for a certain character but what if the secondary market doesn't stock the figures you want? Given how afterward in a later where Tim and Jubilee meet again Tim is dating Ariana Dzerchenko. I don't think Stephanie had evens set foot in the Batcave at the time still it's nice to dream if she and Jubilee fought in Marvel vs DC.


The biggest problem with the secondary market usually hasn't been finding figures, but how much the rarer ones cost.  :Smile: 

I agree - I don't think Steph was in the Batcave till much, much later - 1998ish, if I remember right. But I do sometimes dream of Steph involved in bigger events, so more people loved her like me.  :Smile:

----------


## Miles To Go

Don't worry folks, Stephanie will be back in May, as Tynion is wrapping up his run

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...41&postcount=1




> Written by James Tynion IV, art by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, cover by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque. 
> "Batmen Eternal" part five! The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there's nothing Batman can do to stop it...*until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!*

----------


## Assam

> Don't worry folks, Stephanie will be back in May
> 
> http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...41&postcount=1


And she's also the only still alive member of the team not on the cover of #981...

----------


## adrikito

Yes, *Assam* is right.. Despite the problems with Kate in previous solicitations, Steph is the only that is not here..

Maybe is the goodbye.. To confirm that Steph and Cass are really the best friends..

----------


## millernumber1

Very sad about all this. I hope Assam is right, and we're looking at a Gotham Knights title - but with Tynion on something NOPE JUSTICE related, The Immortal Men, and very likely several spin-offs or unrelated books, it seems like there's a lot of stuff he's gotten going. I hope he puts everything into this last arc, and ends well.

----------


## adrikito

I heard that maybe... May is the LAST month with Tynion in Detective Comics..

Despite she is not in the last cover, I hope see the ending of Steph problems(because maybe I will see the 2 last solicitations) because I think that I will not see her here in the future.. This is the true end of this bat-team..

----------


## millernumber1

> I heard that maybe... May is the only month with Tynion in Detective Comics..
> 
> Despite she is not in the last cover, I hope see the ending of Steph problems(because maybe I will see the 2 last solicitations) because I think that I will not see her here in the future.. This is the true end of this bat-team..


I agree. I am incredibly sad about this. I'm glad they're giving Tynion a good 6 issues to wrap things up - though that almost certainly leaves Cass's plot with Shiva and Ra's/Jean-Paul Sr./mystery villain unfinished, since the next plot seems like it's going to wrap up the whole Colony issue.

And if Tynion has Steph alone and isolated and angry at the end, I'm going to be very disappointed, even though I think his run on Tec has been really good.

----------


## adrikito

> And if Tynion has Steph alone and isolated and angry at the end, I'm going to be very disappointed, even though I think his run on Tec has been really good.


Despite my problems with detective comics... I think that if he surprise me again, I can give on 7 as review of all the chapters that I saw.. For now I am only planning see the 975 and the 2 last issues of Tynion work, with the HOPE of one last HAPPY MOMENT with Steph..

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite my problems with detective comics... I think that if he surprise me again, I can give on 7 as review of all the chapters that I saw..


Even if he screws Steph over, I'd give the whole run an 8. It's really enjoyable, features the best characters, and has really solid art. And I'm really glad Martinez is doing the last issue - that's really excellent news.

----------


## millernumber1

Well, this isn't good.

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...39514238570496

Tynion says that he's leaving Gotham for the forseeable future. So definitely no Gotham Knights.

Which I kind of guessed, since his current direction - NOPE JUSTICE, The Immortal Men - have been very much in that direction. But I hoped.

But now...

Steph has no champion. Even as a flawed one, Tynion has given me hope as a Steph fan for 4 years. Now...the future's a pretty dark place for a Steph fan.

----------


## dominus

> Um. I mean, I'd also love to be in charge of the New DC Universe: Steph Is The Best company, but I think Rebirth in general has been pretty good. I think Tynion has just been hijacked by Metal/NOPE JUSTICE, and hasn't been giving Tec all the attention it needs with all of the plates he needs to spin.


I think they (DC) were hoping for him to have the same amount of output as Dixon did in the late 90s/early 00s.

If you look at Dixon's bibliography, it's unbelievable. He's a madman. I was going through one of my "Essential" Punisher volumes and saw some of the stories he wrote, and they were the more memorable ones. (I have the originals in a box, but prefer re-reading reprints. I used up most of my allowance and paper route money buying them when they were originally published, for $1-$1.25 a pop.  :Wink:  ) 

The guy can WRITE.

----------


## The Dying Detective

Chuch Dixon is doing Bane right now maybe they should put him on Detective Comics.

----------


## adrikito

> Well, this isn't good.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...39514238570496
> 
> Tynion says that he's leaving Gotham for the forseeable future. So definitely no Gotham Knights.
> 
> Steph has no champion. Even as a flawed one, Tynion has given me hope as a Steph fan for 4 years. Now...the future's a pretty dark place for a Steph fan.


Tim "death" ruined Steph future.... WHY???  :Mad: 

...Goodbye Steph, I will see you again in Young Justice..

Attachment 62388

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Tim "death" ruined Steph future.... WHY??? 
> 
> ...Goodbye Steph, I will see you again in Young Justice..
> 
> Attachment 62388


If DC is smart and wants good corporate synery they will not cast Stephanie to the wayside.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think they (DC) were hoping for him to have the same amount of output as Dixon did in the late 90s/early 00s.
> 
> If you look at Dixon's bibliography, it's unbelievable. He's a madman. I was going through one of my "Essential" Punisher volumes and saw some of the stories he wrote, and they were the more memorable ones. (I have the originals in a box, but prefer re-reading reprints. I used up most of my allowance and paper route money buying them when they were originally published, for $1-$1.25 a pop.  ) 
> 
> The guy can WRITE.





> Chuch Dixon is doing Bane right now maybe they should put him on Detective Comics.


He can! Though I don't know that I'd want him on Tec - I'd rather they give him a Robin or Red Robin book with Tim, Steph, Cass, and Luke (not Jean-Paul, because he really doesn't like Azrael, and would probably make him more villainous).




> Tim "death" ruined Steph future.... WHY??? 
> 
> ...Goodbye Steph, I will see you again in Young Justice..


Well. I'm still hoping there's someone in DC who has sense. But...I dunno. (On the plus side, that will really clear out my pull list.  :Wink:  )




> If DC is smart and wants good corporate synery they will not cast Stephanie to the wayside.


I think there's a problem there...somewhere around DC being smart...  :Smile: 

But we do have Steph getting a Spoiler action figure, so there is some sense that she's got a continuing presence.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He can! Though I don't know that I'd want him on Tec - I'd rather they give him a Robin or Red Robin book with Tim, Steph, Cass, and Luke (not Jean-Paul, because he really doesn't like Azrael, and would probably make him more villainous).
> 
> 
> 
> Well. I'm still hoping there's someone in DC who has sense. But...I dunno. (On the plus side, that will really clear out my pull list.  )
> 
> 
> 
> I think there's a problem there...somewhere around DC being smart... 
> ...


Well that's the thing if Mr. Dixon is one of DC's high profile writers if they want to keep him they have to offer him a better deal. And Detective Comics which contain his favourite characters is the place to maintain his good faith.And he is the only one aside from Mr. Tynion to to have the sense to keep Stephanie and Tim around. You never know DC might surprise the readers beside who is replace Tynion on Detective Comics is still not known anyway.

----------


## Assam

> Well that's the thing if Mr. Dixon is one of DC's high profile writers if they want to keep him they have to offer him a better deal.


1. Like Miller already joked about DC is HORRIBLE at business, especially when it comes to keeping their big name writers around. Writers like Mark Waid and Peter David have told horror stories about how awful the working environment was. 
2. I think Dixon's done at DC again. Bane: Conquest is about to wrap up and while that's been fine as the series was small, wasn't really getting much attention, I don't think they're gonna want to give him a new book with him also having taken a job writing Alt-Hero. 




> who is replace Tynion on Detective Comics is still not known anyway.


Based off Tomasi's comments and that he's losing both of the books he's been working on, it looks likely that he'll be getting 'Tec and Teen Titans.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that's the thing if Mr. Dixon is one of DC's high profile writers if they want to keep him they have to offer him a better deal. And Detective Comics which contain his favourite characters is the place to maintain his good faith.And he is the only one aside from Mr. Tynion to to have the sense to keep Stephanie and Tim around. You never know DC might surprise the readers beside who is replace Tynion on Detective Comics is still not known anyway.


Well, Tomasi's name keeps getting thrown around. And while I hope DC would choose someone better, I'm not sure who. I don't think Priest is available, and while he would definitely not have the Batfamily around much, I would be very interested in reading what he wrote.

But yes, now we have to wait until March 19th to find out the truth of Tec's next writer...and the fate of Steph...




> 1. Like Miller already joked about DC is HORRIBLE at business, especially when it comes to keeping their big name writers around. Writers like Mark Waid and Peter David have told horror stories about how awful the working environment was. 
> 2. I think Dixon's done at DC again. Bane: Conquest is about to wrap up and while that's been fine as the series was small, wasn't really getting much attention, I don't think they're gonna want to give him a new book with him also having taken a job writing Alt-Hero. 
> 
> Based off Tomasi's comments and that he's losing both of the books he's been working on, it looks likely that he'll be getting 'Tec and Teen Titans.


Waid and David came from a different era, though. I don't doubt that there's problems now, but most of the DC writers and artists who are talking say that it's pretty solid.  But I don't think that applies to actively seeking out new talent - they seem to be relying on their big name writers to do that. Which basically means Snyder. And while I think Snyder did well to bring in Tynion and Higgins, I've not been impressed with most of the other writers he's promoted.

I don't know what Dixon's status at DC is. I do think his current project choices have been unwise, but he hasn't been saying anything different than he was before he got the Bane Conquest gig. And I was really stunned that he got that gig in the first place, to be totally honest.

Teen Titans? Ugh. That doesn't sound like a good fit for Tomasi. But I am still going off my bitterness about him. His Super Sons has been selling really well.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> 1. Like Miller already joked about DC is HORRIBLE at business, especially when it comes to keeping their big name writers around. Writers like Mark Waid and Peter David have told horror stories about how awful the working environment was. 
> 2. I think Dixon's done at DC again. Bane: Conquest is about to wrap up and while that's been fine as the series was small, wasn't really getting much attention, I don't think they're gonna want to give him a new book with him also having taken a job writing Alt-Hero.


I am not at all surprised but it is a problem that spans many years in the past and it's not even limited to DC but Marvel as well. I don't even think Mark Waid is having a ball over at Marvel either based on his current output. I don't see Peter David working for either company. This is why I would rather take my ideas for Marvel and DC and keep them to myself and use them in fanfiction.





> Based off Tomasi's comments and that he's losing both of the books he's been working on, it looks likely that he'll be getting 'Tec and Teen Titans.


Good for him I hope.

----------


## Assam

> I don't see Peter David working for either company.


He's been writing Scarlet Spider for a while now and he's still writing it. 





> Good for him I hope.


No.

----------


## adrikito

> Teen Titans? Ugh. That doesn't sound like a good fit for Tomasi. But I am still going off my bitterness about him. His Super Sons has been selling really well.


Bitterness? He did something unforgivable for you in the past?

In my case.. Supersons 5-6... Damian transformed in one ridiculous grandpa(that was TOO CRUEL)..  :Mad:  That confirmed me that see Supersons was a bad idea.. As I imaginated before that serie..

Hmmmm... I think that I don´t want another Damian comic with him..

----------


## Barbatos666

Dixon already clarified that he doesn't have any other project. I could see him returning for occasional minis' or one shots starring Steph, Tim, Bane, BOP and Nightwing but nothing beyond that.

----------


## Cmbmool

> If DC is smart and wants good corporate synery they will not cast Stephanie to the wayside.


If DC doesn't want a repeat of LAST TIME THEY PUSH STEPHANIE ASIDE, then they would best do everything they can to re purpose her in the DCU even if it's outside Batman's radar.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bitterness? He did something unforgivable for you in the past?
> 
> In my case.. Supersons 5-6... Damian transformed in one ridiculous grandpa(that was TOO CRUEL)..  That confirmed me that see Supersons was a bad idea.. As I imaginated before that serie..
> 
> Hmmmm... I think that I don´t want another Damian comic with him..


Nothing to me. But he's been responsible for screwing Cass over twice in really crucial places - first in making her go evil as editor of the Robin title when that story happened, and then in Outsiders, when he completely ignored the fact that she was the leader of the team and didn't even write her off, just deleted her from the roster.

Plus I'm pretty sure he dislikes Steph as well. But that's just conjecture.

(The "old Damian" story felt really silly to me. I didn't enjoy that.)




> Dixon already clarified that he doesn't have any other project. I could see him returning for occasional minis' or one shots starring Steph, Tim, Bane, BOP and Nightwing but nothing beyond that.


Oh, man, I would love some Dixon one-shots for BOP and Red Robin/Spoiler...




> If DC doesn't want a repeat of LAST TIME THEY PUSH STEPHANIE ASIDE, then they would best do everything they can to re purpose her in the DCU even if it's outside Batman's radar.


I feel strongly that other than Tynion, no one at DC who has any editorial or directional control cares about Steph.  :Frown:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He's been writing Scarlet Spider for a while now and he's still writing it.


I lost interest in Scarlet Spider the only one that found interesting was when Ben Reilly struck a deal with Death. Still if Mr. Tomasi has wised up since the last time he wrote for Cassandra Cain it could be something different.

----------


## Assam

> I feel strongly that other than Tynion, no one at DC who has any editorial or directional control cares about Steph.


I mean I agree...and maybe it really is just me grasping at straws, but...I dunno. I hesitate to call it a _good_ feeling, but perhaps a _satisfactory_ feeling that the Bensons are getting Cass and Steph come June. There's just too much evidence that _something_ is happening there for me to write it all off as circumstantial. I might be setting myself up for disappointment, but right now at least, I feel that of the 'Tec cast, they're actually the safest besides Tim, who will more than  likely be getting a Tynion penned YJ book spinning out of Nope Justice. Kate's solo is probably ending at #18 and there's no easy place they can just put her, and everyone else (JPV, Luke, Bette and Harper)were only even around because of Tynion. I love JPV and I like Bette, but it isn't as if there's a ton of fan demand for these guys. If there's a good chance Cass and Steph are going to limbo? These poor guys definitely are, and likely for a much longer time.

----------


## millernumber1

> I lost interest in Scarlet Spider the only one that found interesting was when Ben Reilly struck a deal with Death. Still if Mr. Tomasi has wised up since the last time he wrote for Cassandra Cain it could be something different.


I really, really doubt it.

----------


## adrikito

> Nothing to me. But he's been responsible for screwing Cass over twice in really crucial places - first in making her go evil as editor of the Robin title when that story happened, and then in Outsiders, when he completely ignored the fact that she was the leader of the team and didn't even write her off, just deleted her from the roster.
> 
> Plus I'm pretty sure he dislikes Steph as well. But that's just conjecture.
> 
> (The "old Damian" story felt really silly to me. I didn't enjoy that.)(


Look only the 1st image(after the cover)

http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.c...er-sons-7.html

I think that I can be angry and hate this comic as Damian fan.. Even *dietrich*(fan of this serie) is not completely happy because he mentioned that this serie used many times Damian as one victim of funny moments..

----------


## Assam

> I lost interest in Scarlet Spider the only one that found interesting was when Ben Reilly struck a deal with Death.


I really like the OG Ben, probably my favorite Spider-Man. Much as I'm a fan of David, I'm not a fan of what he's been doing with him. 




> Still if Mr. Tomasi has wised up since the last time he wrote for Cassandra Cain it could be something different.


That's just it; he's never written her. He has gone out of his way at every possibility to exclude her and attempt to remove her from the family.

----------


## Dataweaver

I know it's currently being used for a broader concept; but I nominate “Gotham Knights” as the reference name for the Tim/Steph/Cass trio.

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean I agree...and maybe it really is just me grasping at straws, but...I dunno. I hesitate to call it a _good_ feeling, but perhaps a _satisfactory_ feeling that the Bensons are getting Cass and Steph come June. There's just too much evidence that _something_ is happening there for me to write it all off as circumstantial. I might be setting myself up for disappointment, but right now at least, I feel that of the 'Tec cast, they're actually the safest besides Tim, who will more than  likely be getting a Tynion penned YJ book spinning out of Nope Justice. Kate's solo is probably ending at #18 and there's no easy place they can just put her, and everyone else (JPV, Luke, Bette and Harper)were only even around because of Tynion. I love JPV and I like Bette, but it isn't as if there's a ton of fan demand for these guys. If there's a good chance Cass and Steph are going to limbo? These poor guys definitely are, and likely for a much longer time.


Hmm. Tynion on a YJ book? Do you think he might bring Steph and Cass into that? That actually could be the second best scenario other than a Tynion Gotham Knights book (at least, second best for me. Actually, third best: 1st - Tynion stays on Tec until 1000, spins off League of Batgirls book for Steph and Cass with Tim as guest start every three to five issues. 2nd - Tynion does Gotham Knights once a month with the same team - it's important to me that it's once a month, because I want the book to be solid plotting and no one getting left out like Steph has been for the past year. 3rd - Tynion YJ or Teen Titans book with Tim, Steph, and Cass. Of course, since DC hates me, probably none of these are happening, and I'm getting Batman and Robin 2.0, and Steph and Cass are gone for another four years.  :Frown:  )

I love Luke, Jean-Paul, and Bette, but I think they're definitely in limbo.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Hmm. Tynion on a YJ book? Do you think he might bring Steph and Cass into that? That actually could be the second best scenario other than a Tynion Gotham Knights book (at least, second best for me. Actually, third best: 1st - Tynion stays on Tec until 1000, spins off League of Batgirls book for Steph and Cass with Tim as guest start every three to five issues. 2nd - Tynion does Gotham Knights once a month with the same team - it's important to me that it's once a month, because I want the book to be solid plotting and no one getting left out like Steph has been for the past year. 3rd - Tynion YJ or Teen Titans book with Tim, Steph, and Cass. Of course, since DC hates me, probably none of these are happening, and I'm getting Batman and Robin 2.0, and Steph and Cass are gone for another four years.  )


If the worst happens in June, I'll join you in despair. Until then, I'm gonna try out this 'hope' thing Blight's been telling me to use.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I love Luke, Jean-Paul, and Bette, but I think they're definitely in limbo.


Yeah. Kinda sucks on Luke's end that likely my last memory of the guy is gonna be of him being a colossal douche about Clayface's death.

----------


## millernumber1

> Look only the 1st image(after the cover)
> 
> http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.c...er-sons-7.html
> 
> I think that I can be angry and hate this comic as Damian fan.. Even *dietrich*(fan of this serie) is not completely happy because he mentioned that this serie used many times Damian as one victim of funny moments..


Yeah - I think that hits on the reason I don't really enjoy Super Sons - it seems to be mostly jokes, rather than stories. Which is a shame, because Jorge Jimenez is an AWESOME artist.




> That's just it; he's never written her. He has gone out of his way at every possibility to exclude her and attempt to remove her from the family.


Yup. Tomasi pretty much sees the Batfamily as Bruce, Dick, and Damian. He went out of his way to show that Tim and Jason were "not worthy" during Bruce's mourning period. The stuff where Tim, Jason, and Babs wore the Robin symbol when they went to Apokalypse was cute (and man, was Gleason's art pretty on that arc), but them all giving Damian the Robin symbols didn't sit well with me. Felt too much like bowing to royalty. I love Damian, but I've consistently said: he needs someone like Dick or Steph to puncture his arrogance. That's when I really love him. When people treat him like a prince, I think that's just not good for his character.




> I know it's currently being used for a broader concept; but I nominate “Gotham Knights” as the reference name for the Tim/Steph/Cass trio.


Hmm! I'll have to think about that...




> If the worst happens in June, I'll join you in despair. Until then, I'm gonna try out this 'hope' thing Blight's been telling me to use. 
> 
> Yeah. Kinda sucks on Luke's end that likely my last memory of the guy is gonna be of him being a colossal douche about Clayface's death.


Haha. It's funny - I'm supposed to follow Steph in her mantra of "There's room in this line of work for hope," but I'm just not feeling it right now. I can understand why the previous two generations of Steph fans have left - first after War Games, and then again after the n52. I tried to get some of them to come back after Batman Eternal, but they were perhaps wiser than I and said they didn't want to be burned again.

Yeah...for a guy who made awesome non-lethal weapons for the GCPD in the Victim Syndicate arc, he seems awfully cool with assassination now.

But all is not lost for sure. We have two more months with Tynion, and I plan to support it all the way.

----------


## Barbatos666

Bensons would be a disaster. I know people are harsh on Larson but she atleast knows what she's doing. Bensons sisters plots make zero sense. As Batman News stated, there's no sense of who, what, where, why and when. They know fan service that all.

Handing Steph to Bensons is worse than limbo.

----------


## dominus

> Haha. It's funny - I'm supposed to follow Steph in her mantra of "There's room in this line of work for hope," but I'm just not feeling it right now. I can understand why the previous two generations of Steph fans have left - first after War Games, and then again after the n52. I tried to get some of them to come back after Batman Eternal, but they were perhaps wiser than I and said they didn't want to be burned again.


Yeah, I just can't get into Rebirth. I'll stay on Earth Prime, it's where I grew up. (The first TT issues I bought were the Lonely Place of Dying crossovers, so I'm one of the original Tim fans.) I still remember talking with comic shop owners about Jason's rewritten origin.  :Big Grin:  Hell, aside from Jason's rewritten origin, there's still a fairly solid timeline in Gotham from Detective 27 up until the N52. There were things I disagreed with, and plots that I disliked, but *nothing* like N52. There's plenty of stories to read from 1939-2011.

----------


## millernumber1

> Bensons would be a disaster. I know people are harsh on Larson but she atleast knows what she's doing. Bensons sisters plots make zero sense. As Batman News stated, there's no sense of who, what, where, why and when. They know fan service that all.
> 
> Handing Steph to Bensons is worse than limbo.


Eh. I disagree. The Batman News reviews of Birds of Prey are ridiculously critical, to the point of actually missing details that actually answer their questions (though Assam may agree with them). I reviewed the title for a year, and while it's definitely not a very crucial title, it's way more fun than that reviewer will give it credit for.

That being said, while I would appreciate the Bensons keeping Steph and Cass in the fandom's eye, it's not something I'd be super excited about, sadly.

But I've lived through two periods of Steph being in limbo. It's not better.

----------


## dominus

> Haha. It's funny - I'm supposed to follow Steph in her mantra of "There's room in this line of work for hope,"


Off Topic..

In a perfect world, Rian Johnson would turn over his future trilogy of SW movies to Aaron Allston, and we get a Wraith Squadron story.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I just can't get into Rebirth. I'll stay on Earth Prime, it's where I grew up. (The first TT issues I bought were the Lonely Place of Dying crossovers, so I'm one of the original Tim fans.) I still remember talking with comic shop owners about Jason's rewritten origin.  Hell, aside from Jason's rewritten origin, there's still a fairly solid timeline in Gotham from Detective 27 up until the N52. There were things I disagreed with, and plots that I disliked, but *nothing* like N52. There's plenty of stories to read from 1939-2011.


Hmm. I've never been able to get into the pre-Year One stuff, honestly.  There are plenty of stories to read, but I like the potential of growing Steph's fanbase that Tec represented. Unfortunately, it didn't really do that.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Off Topic..
> 
> In a perfect world, Rian Johnson would turn over his future trilogy of SW movies to Aaron Allston, and we get a Wraith Squadron story.


In a perfect world, Allston would still be alive  :Frown: 

And writing Steph comics!

----------


## Barbatos666

> Eh. I disagree. The Batman News reviews of Birds of Prey are ridiculously critical, to the point of actually missing details that actually answer their questions (though Assam may agree with them). I reviewed the title for a year, and while it's definitely not a very crucial title, it's way more fun than that reviewer will give it credit for.
> 
> That being said, while I would appreciate the Bensons keeping Steph and Cass in the fandom's eye, it's not something I'd be super excited about, sadly.
> 
> But I've lived through two periods of Steph being in limbo. It's not better.


But that thing makes no sense at all. Like in the Manslaughter arc all these women show up and then stand in the background. Then Poison Ivy was cooking up some brilliant cure using her expertise and rare plants only for the cure to be Estrogen... there's just no sense of the Ws'. Plots and characters literally get lost, one second characters fight next second they're hugging. One second Barbara says she doesn't need Batman's help and next second she's asking for his help. They cant even keep track of their own writing.

----------


## millernumber1

> But that thing makes no sense at all. Like in the Manslaughter arc all these women show up and then stand in the background. Then Poison Ivy was cooking up some brilliant cure using her expertise and rare plants only for the cure to be Estrogen... there's just no sense of the Ws'. Plots and characters literally get lost, one second characters fight next second they're hugging. One second Barbara says she doesn't need Batman's help and next second she's asking for his help. They cant even keep track of their own writing.


Standing in the background? Sounds like most crossovers. Ivy's efforts being wasted? Yup, still sounds like a crossover. Cure being estrogen - sounds like they were playing off of Denny O'Neil's excellent Tec Annual #1. Characters fighting then hugging? That's a sign that the stakes are too low, and the drive for resolution is too high, not that it doesn't make sense. See also: Super Hero Girls. Babs saying she doesn't need Batman's help to find Oracle is not the same as Babs asking for help to find his fiancee.

The editorial on the book is pretty crummy - they've had mis-attributed dialogue and hair colors quite a bit. But that's not a Benson issue, that's an editorial/lettering/coloring issue.

That being said, since this is a Steph appreciation thread, I don't think a fight over the Bensons before they've been announced to be writing Steph is very germane. If you want to talk about how they handled Steph particularly in the crossover, that seems appropriate.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really, really doubt it.


Eh it's nice to dream but still hand me Stephanie and I'll know what to do with her. I can honestly re-envision her as Tim's crime fighting partner in a solo comic that they will both headline. Supporting characters include Ives who will help them on computer issues. Tamara Fox who will be Tim and Stephanie's main contact in Wayne Enterprises. And Lynx III who will be their eyes and ears in the underworld.

----------


## millernumber1

> Eh it's nice to dream but still hand me Stephanie and I'll know what to do with her. I can honestly re-envision her as Tim's crime fighting partner in a solo comic that they will both headline. Supporting characters include Ives who will help them on computer issues. Tamara Fox who will be Tim and Stephanie's main contact in Wayne Enterprises. And Lynx III who will be their eyes and ears in the underworld.


Ah, the halcyon days of the Yost/FabNic Red Robin days...

(I still think FabNic writes a TERRIBLE Steph.  :Smile:  )

----------


## adrikito

> Yeah - I think that hits on the reason I don't really enjoy Super Sons - it seems to be mostly jokes, rather than stories. Which is a shame, because Jorge Jimenez is an AWESOME artist.


Thanks for understand me.... 

What is your opinion about this image?(I found the image in twitter, few seconds before this post) Cass is desiring good luck to Steph..

DWKUvlxVwAEjyem.jpg

There are 2 images more(without Steph and Cass) with all the robins except grayson..

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks for understand me.... 
> 
> What is your opinion about this image?(I found the image in twitter, few seconds before this post) Cass is giving hope to Steph..
> 
> DWKUvlxVwAEjyem.jpg
> 
> There are 2 images more(without Steph and Cass) with all the robins except grayson..


Aww, that's cute.

----------


## adrikito

> Aww, that's cute.


Yeah, for many of us because they are girls....

Seems that this twitter supports homosexual couples.. 

I saw one image with TimxJason for +16 years... This will be the last time that I will see his twitter... I am not ready for strong gay images.. This is like the fanbases, I am not in that kind of fanbase..

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems that this twitter user is gay.. That StephxCass image was with other 2 images supporting homosexual fancouples of Tumblr, fortunatelly only kisses... But...
> 
> I saw one image with TimxJason for +16 years... This will be the last time that I will see his twitter... I am not ready for strong gay images.. This is like the fanbases, I am not in that kind of fanbase..


I'm not really big on the Dick/Jason/Tim/Damian shipping. It feels a bit too much like brothers.

Tim/Steph I like because Steph, despite being Robin and Batgirl, definitely doesn't feel like a sister to any of the other Robins. She feels like a sister to Cass, though, which is why I don't really ship those two (though I absolutely RELATIONSHIP them  :Wink:  ).

----------


## Assam

> Seems that this twitter supports homosexual couples..


As _everyone_ should. 




> I'm not really big on the Dick/Jason/Tim/Damian shipping. It feels a bit too much like brothers.


Shipping between Bruce/Dick/Cass/Jason/Tim/Damian is incest and really creepy.

----------


## millernumber1

> Shipping between Bruce/Dick/Cass/Jason/Tim/Damian is incest and really creepy.


Shipping ANYONE who is a sidekick with Bruce is REALLY creepy. This includes Babs.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm not really big on the Dick/Jason/Tim/Damian shipping. It feels a bit too much like brothers.
> 
> Tim/Steph I like because Steph, despite being Robin and Batgirl, definitely doesn't feel like a sister to any of the other Robins. She feels like a sister to Cass, though, which is why I don't really ship those two (though I absolutely RELATIONSHIP them  ).


Then your not going to like what I have in store for Tim and Stephanie in that set up I created based on Red Robin. Lynx III and Tamara will be competeting with Stephanie for Tim's affections. It's all part of my DC Universe plan.

----------


## Assam

> I know it's currently being used for a broader concept; but I nominate “Gotham Knights” as the reference name for the Tim/Steph/Cass trio.


It does roll off the tongue a bit better than '90's Batkids. 




> But all is not lost for sure. We have two more months with Tynion, and I plan to support it all the way.


I was originally planning on dropping the book after the Trial, but between the penultimate solicit and it being the end, I may as well keep going. 




> Handing Steph to Bensons is worse than limbo.


Its not something to be excited about certainly, but I'll take weak but inoffensive writing and fan service over limbo any day. Very much the lesser of two evils. 




> If you want to talk about how they handled Steph particularly in the crossover, that seems appropriate.


She was pretty bad there but that can be blamed on them having to write her in the phase Tynion had her going through.

----------


## millernumber1

> Then your not going to like what I have in store for Tim and Stephanie in that set up I created based on Red Robin. Lynx III and Tamara will be competeting with Stephanie for Tim's affections. It's all part of my DC Universe plan.


Well, like I said - that FabNic plot is no surprise to me. I'm just glad you're not picking up on the more outlandish interpretations of Gates of Gotham and shipping Cass and Tim.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> It does roll off the tongue a bit better than '90's Batkids. 
> 
> I was originally planning on dropping the book after the Trial, but between the penultimate solicit and it being the end, I may as well keep going. 
> 
> Its not something to be exicted about certainly, but I'll take weak but inoffensive writing and fan service over limbo any day. Very much the lesser of two evils. 
> 
> She was pretty bad there but that can be blamed on them having to write her in the phase Tynion had her going through.


It also fixes several problems with the "Gotham Girl Gang" that tumblr tried to get going around Batman and Robin Eternal.  :Smile: 

I think Tynion can end it well - I just hope he gives it his all. I'm incredibly heartened by having Martinez come back.

Limbo is the worst. Take it from Steph and Cass fans. (And Jason fans. But they can't complain about that for the past decade!)

Yeah - Steph's who "I hate everyone" phase is really annoying. Even when I'm defending it, I wish I didn't have to.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, like I said - that FabNic plot is no surprise to me. I'm just glad you're not picking up on the more outlandish interpretations of Gates of Gotham and shipping Cass and Tim.


The only thing I considered using as another member of Tim and Stephanie's supporting cast she will be their confidant and friend as well as a source of balance between the two of them. I didn't want Cassandra Cain to go to waste.

----------


## Assam

> The only thing I considered using as another member of Tim and Stephanie's supporting cast she will be their confidant and friend as well as a source of balance between the two of them. I didn't want Cassandra Cain to go to waste.


No offense, but I hate that idea. 

Sorry, but after so many fanfics (and Convergence: Batgirl) where Cass is nothing but the third fiddle to Tim and Steph, I would hate this set-up.

----------


## millernumber1

> The only thing I considered using as another member of Tim and Stephanie's supporting cast she will be their confidant and friend as well as a source of balance between the two of them. I didn't want Cassandra Cain to go to waste.


Well, I personally would really love to see the trio of Tim, Steph, and Cass get a chance to see how it goes. We've really only seen them as a group of duos.

----------


## adrikito

> As _everyone_ should.


I said that for one JasonxTim image.... One fucking the other(fortunatelly with clothes)... Is not something that everyone wants to see...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No offense, but I hate that idea. 
> 
> Sorry, but after so many fanfics (and Convergence: Batgirl) where Cass is nothing but the third fiddle to Tim and Steph, I would hate this set-up.


I was just thinking of using her the way the psychotic but surprisingly sane Solf J Kimblee from Fullmetal Alchemist was used to cut through the ideals of both the protagonists and antagonists. A kind of way to bring balance to the narrative. But I can do more just need to think and seek some suggestions if you have any.

----------


## Assam

> I said that for one JasonxTim image.... One fucking the other(fortunatelly with clothes)... Is not something that everyone wants to see...


Like I said, I'm anti-any shipping of Bruce and his kids or other partners and the kids with each other. But you made the point about it being two guys. _That's_ where I had a problem.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I personally would really love to see the trio of Tim, Steph, and Cass get a chance to see how it goes. We've really only seen them as a group of duos.


Thank you Cassandra Cain will useful in bringing balance to Stephanie and Tim who can go to some extreme things so she's there keep them in line.

----------


## adrikito

> Like I said, I'm anti-any shipping of Bruce and his kids or other partners and the kids with each other. But you made the point about it being two guys. _That's_ where I had a problem.


Maybe my previous comment was less offensive(quoted for miller).. I saw one strong homosexual image and I am not ready for this kind of images..

I like TT Aqualad, is better with Damian than the rest of YJ team.. I can´t hate the homosexual people..

I will change that comment..

----------


## Assam

> Well, I personally would really love to see the trio of Tim, Steph, and Cass get a chance to see how it goes. We've really only seen them as a group of duos.


It really is weird how the only time pre-flashpoint all three worked together was that one time in Cass's book, and even then, Connor Hawke and Eddie Fyers were along for that ride too. 




> I was just thinking of using her the way the psychotic but surprisingly sane Solf J Kimblee from Fullmetal Alchemist was used to cut through the ideals of both the protagonists and antagonists. A kind of way to bring balance to the narrative.


Um. No. That's not Cass's role. Like, at all. 




> Thank you Cassandra Cain will useful in bringing balance to Stephanie and Tim who can go to some extreme things so she's there keep them in line.


I hate asking this, but how much Cass have you actually read? I'm  getting the feeling you don't really know much about her.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Um. No. That's not Cass's role. Like, at all. 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate asking this, but how much Cass have you actually read? I'm  getting the feeling you don't really know much about her.


Not much I'm afraid and it did occur to me to use Cass as a way bring balance both Stephanie and Tim might be unsuitable. So I'll need to do more research if you will help me by telling what kind of role should she have.

----------


## Assam

> . So I'll need to do more research


https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Vol-1...irl+vol+1+cass
https://www.amazon.com/BATGIRL-VOL-D..._&dpSrc=detail
https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Vol-3..._&dpSrc=detail

Enjoy.  :Wink: 




> if you will help me by telling what kind of role should she have.


Not a supporting one. 

Also, is this for a fanfic world you're setting up or something?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not a supporting one. 
> 
> Also, is this for a fanfic world you're setting up or something?


I was thinking of elevating Cassandra Cain to main character status anyway. And yes it is a fanfiction world more like a universe though. One that would be a little more ideal but difficult to manage.

----------


## millernumber1

Assam (and anyone who likes a good fanfic  :Smile:  ) - have you read the "A Different Game" AU series? It's a Steph-centric story in which Steph is the Robin who died and came back as Red Hood instead of Jason, and the reworking of Battle for the Cowl with that premise does some pretty amazing things with both Steph and Cass:

https://archiveofourown.org/works/5517815

----------


## Assam

> Assam (and anyone who likes a good fanfic  ) - have you read the "A Different Game" AU series? It's a Steph-centric story in which Steph is the Robin who died and came back as Red Hood instead of Jason, and the reworking of Battle for the Cowl with that premise does some pretty amazing things with both Steph and Cass:
> 
> https://archiveofourown.org/works/5517815


Think I've looked at this before and seem to remember it being pretty good. May give it a full read some time later.

----------


## millernumber1

Some really nice gems posted on tumblr in the last few days:

http://lisa-jam.tumblr.com/post/1711...atgirls-now-in
The counterpart to the Cass piece posted in the Cass thread:

Tim Steph skaters.jpg

http://sorscia.tumblr.com/post/17116...o-i-decided-to

Tim Steph window.jpg




> Think I've looked at this before and seem to remember it being pretty good. May give it a full read some time later.


It's really excellent - if you like it, please let me know! (and of course comment on the site so the author gets love  :Smile:  )

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Some really nice gems posted on tumblr in the last few days:
> 
> http://lisa-jam.tumblr.com/post/1711...atgirls-now-in
> The counterpart to the Cass piece posted in the Cass thread:
> 
> Tim Steph skaters.jpg
> 
> http://sorscia.tumblr.com/post/17116...o-i-decided-to
> 
> Tim Steph window.jpg


These are real beauties!

----------


## Miles To Go

> http://sorscia.tumblr.com/post/17116...o-i-decided-to
> 
> Tim Steph window.jpg


Reminds me of _Clarrisa Explains It All_

----------


## Caivu

Dustin Ngyuen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Dustin Ngyuen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg


I spy with my little eye a STEPHGIRL!

I really hope that the new series has cameos by her. I did my part - told him I love seeing Steph. But his response is that the impression DC has is that fans stopped caring about Steph after Batman Eternal.

----------


## adrikito

> I spy with my little eye a STEPHGIRL!
> 
> I really hope that the new series has cameos by her. I did my part - told him I love seeing Steph. But his response is that the impression DC has is that fans stopped caring about Steph after Batman Eternal.


We both hope see her here..

----------


## millernumber1

> Despite I saw her, I forgot add this here...


It's pretty exciting, yes?

----------


## adrikito

> It's pretty exciting, yes?


Yes, you are right...

----------


## Caivu

While we wait for Steph's new figure, here's a custom one from Itz Vintage:

Screenshot_20180223-220604.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> While we wait for Steph's new figure, here's a custom one from Itz Vintage:
> 
> Screenshot_20180223-220604.jpg


Nice! Much more Lee Garbett or Ramon Bachs, with the curly hair, than Nguyen or Pere Perez, who did much straighter hair.

Guys, I'm so excited about the new Steph action figure, you wouldn't believe it!

----------


## adrikito

> While we wait for Steph's new figure, here's a custom one from Itz Vintage:
> 
> Screenshot_20180223-220604.jpg


WOW... I like this batgirl figure.

----------


## Caivu

WIP by Tatiana B. Barthel:

Screenshot_20180225-122230.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> WIP by Tatiana B. Barthel:
> 
> Screenshot_20180225-122230.jpg


Is this fan or pro?

----------


## Caivu

> Is this fan or pro?


I can't tell.

----------


## millernumber1

> I can't tell.


I think fan, based on her instagram: http://www.pictame.com/media/1722560...834_2084905343

_"Inking proces on my Spoiler pice. I did the classic Spoiler look with the face covered. #spoiler  #stephaniebrown  #batman  #batfamily  #brown  #stephanie  #timdarke  #detectivecomics  #dccomics  #robin  #redrobin  #batgirl  #batwoman  #ink  #balncoynegro  #blackandwithe  #inker  #moleskine  #traditionalart  #artetradicional  #comicartist  #comicart  #fanart  #batmanart  #batifamilia  #tinta"_

----------


## Caivu

> I think fan, based on her instagram: http://www.pictame.com/media/1722560...834_2084905343
> 
> _"Inking proces on my Spoiler pice. I did the classic Spoiler look with the face covered. #spoiler  #stephaniebrown  #batman  #batfamily  #brown  #stephanie  #timdarke  #detectivecomics  #dccomics  #robin  #redrobin  #batgirl  #batwoman  #ink  #balncoynegro  #blackandwithe  #inker  #moleskine  #traditionalart  #artetradicional  #comicartist  #comicart  #fanart  #batmanart  #batifamilia  #tinta"_


That makes the most sense, but it could be possible she does commissions.

----------


## Assam

I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen any 'If Steph dies, we riot' posts anywhere yet in response to 981's cover. Anyone got theories as to why she may not be there?

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen any 'If Steph dies, we riot' posts anywhere yet in response to 981's cover. Anyone got theories as to why she may not be there?


I have faith that Tynion won't kill her. I think it is mostly a case of him writing her out again. Which I am mad about, but not something to riot about. Just tweet (which I did asap)  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Could it be a reverse case from #940? She was left off the cover for now for spoilery (ha) reasons?

----------


## millernumber1

> Could it be a reverse case from #940? She was left off the cover for now for spoilery (ha) reasons?


Don't think I haven't thought that many times. But seems a bit too convoluted when she has already been written off. I know solicits say she comes back, but that reads like a cameo to me.

----------


## Assam

> I have faith that Tynion won't kill her. I think it is mostly a case of him writing her out again. Which I am mad about, but not something to riot about. Just tweet (which I did asap)


Except we know she's coming right back because she was mentioned by name in the solicits. If the cover wasn't so intentionally final looking, I'd guess that Tynion had changed his plans to include the Cass and Steph stuff here, whereas he'd originally planned to have it happen later, and Steph wasn't originally supposed to be in this arc at all.

----------


## millernumber1

> Except we know she's coming right back because she was mentioned by name in the solicits. If the cover wasn't so intentionally final looking, I'd guess that Tynion had changed his plans to include the Cass and Steph stuff here, whereas he'd originally planned to have it happen later, and Steph wasn't originally supposed to be in this arc at all.


She could be coming back like Harper has - civilian cameos. Which...is not great.

----------


## Assam

> She could be coming back like Harper has - civilian cameos. Which...is not great.


I really think you're being too pessimistic. 

"The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there’s nothing Batman can do to stop it...until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!"

I read this and I think "Worst Case Scenario: The two of them will play a major role in saving the day. Best Case Scenario: They see a couple Batgirls as a set-up for their next home."

----------


## millernumber1

> I really think you're being too pessimistic. 
> 
> "The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there’s nothing Batman can do to stop it...until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!"
> 
> I read this and I think "Worst Case Scenario: The two of them will play a major role in saving the day. Best Case Scenario: They see a couple Batgirls as a set-up for their next home."


That does sound good. I really hope that is the case.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

POST 4700th... A GOOD PARTNERSHIP:

Batgirls Stephanie Brown Cassandra Cain.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

So, I saw this image on 4chan the other day, and while I love the image, I was thinking that it's way too close to "pretty much most of her main character appearances" to be that useful for a newbie fan who wants to know why Steph is great. What are the stories that make you love Steph? What made you love her, and would you give to someone else to get them to love her?

Steph co rec.jpg

For me, it would be a combination of her significant Robin appearances (starting with her origin story in Tec), her stint as Robin and then a couple of issues from War Games and War Crimes, Dixon's second stint on Robin, then her time as Batgirl. Probably including Batman Eternal, at least #24 and #52, her guest spots in Catwoman, n52 Batgirl, then Tec 957.

So (almost all of these were very formative to my own personal love of Steph):
Spoiling the Cluemaster: Tec 647-649, Robin 1-5, 15-16.
Pregnancy/starts dating Tim: Batman:Huntress/Spoiler (Cataclysm tie-in), Robin 57-65
Training with Dinah: Robin 80-page giant, Birds of Prey 39-40, 43
(I know people like the Jon Lewis stuff, but man are they terrible stories. I can't think of any that I really would recommend, and they don't have any real impact on Steph's character trajectory).
Training with Cass: Batgirl 20-21, 26 (I would NOT recommend 27 to someone to make them like Steph, because when I first read it back in 2004, I really disliked Steph in that issue), 28 (I would also not recommend 38, because I don't think Steph or Cass come off well in that issue).
Robin: Robin 126-128, Batgirl 53, Solo 10, Detective Comics 796, Batgirl 54, Batman 12 cent Adventure, Catwoman 34, Gotham Knights 58, Batman 633, Detective Comics 809 (for the cover and setup of War Crimes), Batman 644 (for the Joker's speech about Steph being Robin), and Birds of Prey #99 (this is mostly just because I love Birds of Prey, and I was so thrilled when BQM used this issue as part of the relationship between Babs and Steph). And, of course, All-New Batman: The Brave and the Bold #13 (Calling all Robins!)
Return: Robin 170-174, Robin/Spoiler Special
Batgirl: Batgirl 1-24, Red Robin 9-12, Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl (which they freaking better include like they promised in the second volume), and Batman, Inc. Special.
New 52/Rebirth: Batgirl: Future's End, Batman Eternal 3, 24, 43, 52, Catwoman 42-46, Batgirl 46-47, 50-52, Tec 940, 947, 957

----------


## Chickfighter

> So, I saw this image on 4chan the other day, and while I love the image, I was thinking that it's way too close to "pretty much most of her main character appearances" to be that useful for a newbie fan who wants to know why Steph is great. What are the stories that make you love Steph? What made you love her, and would you give to someone else to get them to love her?
> 
> Steph co rec.jpg
> 
> For me, it would be a combination of her significant Robin appearances (starting with her origin story in Tec), her stint as Robin and then a couple of issues from War Games and War Crimes, Dixon's second stint on Robin, then her time as Batgirl. Probably including Batman Eternal, at least #24 and #52, her guest spots in Catwoman, n52 Batgirl, then Tec 957.
> 
> So (almost all of these were very formative to my own personal love of Steph):
> Spoiling the Cluemaster: Tec 647-649, Robin 1-5, 15-16.
> Pregnancy/starts dating Tim: Batman:Huntress/Spoiler (Cataclysm tie-in), Robin 57-65
> ...


That's a pretty comprehensive list. How do you feel about the World's Finest appearance?

----------


## millernumber1

> That's a pretty comprehensive list. How do you feel about the World's Finest appearance?


It's very fun! And key for small details on Steph's relationship with Damian and Kara. But I don't think it's really a foundational story for Steph, or features her quite enough to include. Especially since I was trying to cut down a bit (which it seems I failed to do, a bit.  :Frown:  )

----------


## The Dying Detective

At the end of Stephanie's Batgirl run it was speculated by some that that future where she has a son was either Tim's or Damian's it's because some suspected that Damian liked Stephanie based on how fascinated he was with her in spite of how he treated her.

----------


## millernumber1

> At the end of Stephanie's Batgirl run it was speculated by some that that future where she has a son was either Tim's or Damian's it's because some suspected that Damian liked Stephanie based on how fascinated he was with her in spite of how he treated her.


Well, BQM deliberately left it open to speculation by writing that Steph is married, but no specific husband (http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...rd_series)_(24) ). And the son being black haired means both are completely possible.

Convergence: Batgirl played both sides, by including the idea that Damian had a crush on her when she was Batgirl in the summary of her career in the first issue, but then shipping Tim/Steph hard at the end of the second.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, BQM deliberately left it open to speculation by writing that Steph is married, but no specific husband (http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki...rd_series)_(24) ). And the son being black haired means both are completely possible.
> 
> Convergence: Batgirl played both sides, by including the idea that Damian had a crush on her when she was Batgirl in the summary of her career in the first issue, but then shipping Tim/Steph hard at the end of the second.


So Tim got Stephanie in the end no surprise as much as I would have liked Tim with either Tamara Fox or Lynx II I acknowledge Stephanie as Tim's end game though I would not say no to writing various alternate scenarios for the sake of it. However I do wonder how a relationship with Stephanie and Damian would have gone if Damian was at the right age to date her.

----------


## millernumber1

> So Tim got Stephanie in the end no surprise as much as I would have liked Tim with either Tamara Fox or Lynx II I acknowledge Stephanie as Tim's end game though I would not say no to writing various alternate scenarios for the sake of it. However I do wonder how a relationship with Stephanie and Damian would have gone if Damian was at the right age to date her.


Aha! Well, as it happens, even though I don't ship Steph with anyone really except Tim, there is one exception: No Dawn, No Day, by quipquipquip.

https://archiveofourown.org/series/10729

It's a future fic set about 8 years after Batgirl #24, dealing with the future depicted in Grant Morrison's Batman #666, combined with massive Steph/Damian shipping. Warning: the first ending is REALLY DEPRESSING. Unecessarily so, so the author decided to write a second ending in follow up fic. So if you read the first fic and are like, "To heck with this, why?", just move to "You Left Me In The Dark," which is what I consider the "true" ending, since it's followed by over 30 chapters of one-shots detailing the future of the characters. (I strongly, strongly recommend "WWBGD?" for fans of Steph as Batgirl and the Streets of Gotham series. But have your tissues handy - tears are usually shed.  :Smile:  ).

The fic is fairly R-rated, just to be on the safe side of recommendation.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Aha! Well, as it happens, even though I don't ship Steph with anyone really except Tim, there is one exception: No Dawn, No Day, by quipquipquip.
> 
> https://archiveofourown.org/series/10729
> 
> It's a future fic set about 8 years after Batgirl #24, dealing with the future depicted in Grant Morrison's Batman #666, combined with massive Steph/Damian shipping. Warning: the first ending is REALLY DEPRESSING. Unecessarily so, so the author decided to write a second ending in follow up fic. So if you read the first fic and are like, "To heck with this, why?", just move to "You Left Me In The Dark," which is what I consider the "true" ending, since it's followed by over 30 chapters of one-shots detailing the future of the characters. (I strongly, strongly recommend "WWBGD?" for fans of Steph as Batgirl and the Streets of Gotham series. But have your tissues handy - tears are usually shed.  ).
> 
> The fic is fairly R-rated, just to be on the safe side of recommendation.


Okay that's good to hear as long as there are no sex scenes I think I'm good.

----------


## millernumber1

> Okay that's good to hear as long as there are no sex scenes I think I'm good.


...uh. There are many sex scenes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> ...uh. There are many sex scenes.


Oh then I know where to not look then. Besides there are other fanfictions that do put Damian and Stephanie together but they don't follow the plot thread left by Bryan Q. Miller. So I think I'll read those.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh then I know where to not look then. Besides there are other fanfictions that do put Damian and Stephanie together but they don't follow the plot thread left by Bryan Q. Miller. So I think I'll read those.


Sorry. I thought the "R rated" thing made it clear.

But you should still read "WWBGD?" It's pretty much a standalone.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sorry. I thought the "R rated" thing made it clear.
> 
> But you should still read "WWBGD?" It's pretty much a standalone.


Films like Logan are R-rated and while violent it's more tolerable than that and I can't for the life of me can't. And what does WWBGD stand for?

----------


## millernumber1

> Films like Logan are R-rated and while violent it's more tolerable than that and I can't for the life of me can't. And what does WWBGD stand for?


What Would BatGirl Do  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What Would BatGirl Do


Great thanks so where is it? Is it on Archive of Our Own?

----------


## millernumber1

> Great thanks so where is it? Is it on Archive of Our Own?


https://archiveofourown.org/works/24...hapters/385062

Here ya go!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> https://archiveofourown.org/works/24...hapters/385062
> 
> Here ya go!


Okay thanks.

----------


## Sannom

> Aha! Well, as it happens, even though I don't ship Steph with anyone really except Tim, there is one exception: No Dawn, No Day, by quipquipquip.


I must say, I kind of miss the days when they were more of a TimSteph shipper  :Smile:  Their "Sorry I bruced you" ship is always a fun read.

----------


## millernumber1

> I must say, I kind of miss the days when they were more of a TimSteph shipper  Their "Sorry I bruced you" ship is always a fun read.


I do really love that fic! I need to do some checks of my tumblr archives and fanfic favorites to see what the best TimSteph fics are. Obviously, No Dawn No Day is the best DamiSteph fic. And A Different Game is the best Steph is Red Hood fic. And there's that amazing "Prudence from Red Robin slips from pre-Flashpoint to the n52 and forms her own team to get Tim Drake back on track from the horrible Teen Titans books" (can't recall what it's called right now).

Ooooh, also forgot - since the conversation has been lively today, I want to put the call out for people's favorite or first comics or arcs featuring Steph that are important for her solo character development. When did you first read and love Steph? What would you give to someone if you wanted to make them a fan of specifically Steph (that is to say, not a fan of Steph as Tim or Cass's sidekicks, to be clear  :Wink:  ).

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> I do really love that fic! I need to do some checks of my tumblr archives and fanfic favorites to see what the best TimSteph fics are. Obviously, No Dawn No Day is the best DamiSteph fic. And A Different Game is the best Steph is Red Hood fic. And there's that amazing "Prudence from Red Robin slips from pre-Flashpoint to the n52 and forms her own team to get Tim Drake back on track from the horrible Teen Titans books" (can't recall what it's called right now).
> 
> Ooooh, also forgot - since the conversation has been lively today, I want to put the call out for people's favorite or first comics or arcs featuring Steph that are important for her solo character development. When did you first read and love Steph? What would you give to someone if you wanted to make them a fan of specifically Steph (that is to say, not a fan of Steph as Tim or Cass's sidekicks, to be clear  ).


I basically came to like Steph after the Nu52 reboot.  I was so disgusted with Babsgirl and what they were doing with Tim that I started collecting reading the 90s Robin series and the BQM Batgirl because I heard they were much better than what was 'current' at the time, and low and behold they were.  Steph featured prominently in the Robin series very early on, and I really enjoyed reading her character there.  I'm not sure if I'd start a new 'fan' with her first appearance in Detective comics followed by her Robin appearances or with the BQM series.  I feel that the BQM series might be more accessible right of the bat, but the Dixon Steph is more fully realized over time.

----------


## millernumber1

> I basically came to like Steph after the Nu52 reboot.  I was so disgusted with Babsgirl and what they were doing with Tim that I started collecting reading the 90s Robin series and the BQM Batgirl because I heard they were much better than what was 'current' at the time, and low and behold they were.  Steph featured prominently in the Robin series very early on, and I really enjoyed reading her character there.  I'm not sure if I'd start a new 'fan' with her first appearance in Detective comics followed by her Robin appearances or with the BQM series.  I feel that the BQM series might be more accessible right of the bat, but the Dixon Steph is more fully realized over time.


Very interesting! I'm so excited that the new Steph Batgirl trade is coming out in the next few weeks - it's so hard to get people hooked on something they can't read (legally, at least)  :Smile: . I do think that Steph's Batgirl run is a perfect "entry point," though as I've been saying on other threads recently, "entry points" are perhaps a bit overrated. My first comic that I was really hooked on was one of the middle issues of Bruce Wayne: Murderer. So I think someone could pick up most issues and if it were a good one, they could get hooked.

But I think giving someone two trades and saying, "This is Steph. She is awesome" is a really good way to get someone into her. So I definitely think that reading her Batgirl series is pretty much perfect.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Very interesting! I'm so excited that the new Steph Batgirl trade is coming out in the next few weeks - it's so hard to get people hooked on something they can't read (legally, at least) . I do think that Steph's Batgirl run is a perfect "entry point," though as I've been saying on other threads recently, "entry points" are perhaps a bit overrated. My first comic that I was really hooked on was one of the middle issues of Bruce Wayne: Murderer. So I think someone could pick up most issues and if it were a good one, they could get hooked.
> 
> But I think giving someone two trades and saying, "This is Steph. She is awesome" is a really good way to get someone into her. So I definitely think that reading her Batgirl series is pretty much perfect.


Would be great if they could find a way to right Tim and Stephanie's characters maybe they need either another old writer like Chuck Dixon and offer him a good deal if they have the mind for it. ANd try to capture as much of the spirit of the old stuff as this result should have been expected.

----------


## adrikito

> So, I saw this image on 4chan the other day, and while I love the image, I was thinking that it's way too close to "pretty much most of her main character appearances" to be that useful for a newbie fan who wants to know why Steph is great. What are the stories that make you love Steph? What made you love her, and would you give to someone else to get them to love her?
> 
> Attachment 62935
> 
> For me, it would be a combination of her significant Robin appearances (starting with her origin story in Tec), her stint as Robin and then a couple of issues from War Games and War Crimes, Dixon's second stint on Robin, then her time as Batgirl. Probably including Batman Eternal, at least #24 and #52, her guest spots in Catwoman, n52 Batgirl, then Tec 957.
> 
> So (almost all of these were very formative to my own personal love of Steph):
> Spoiling the Cluemaster: Tec 647-649, Robin 1-5, 15-16.
> Pregnancy/starts dating Tim: Batman:Huntress/Spoiler (Cataclysm tie-in), Robin 57-65
> ...


Thanks for the list..




> At the end of Stephanie's Batgirl run it was speculated by some that that future where she has a son was either Tim's or Damian's it's because *some suspected that Damian liked Stephanie based on how fascinated he was with her in spite of how he treated her.*


That reminds me that I saw one fanfiction about StephxDamian.. And sure that there will be more..

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks for the list..
> 
> That reminds me that I saw one fanfiction about StephxDamian.. And sure that there will be more..


You're welcome! What was your first issue where you read Steph? And did you like her immediately, or did it take a while?

----------


## adrikito

> You're welcome! What was your first issue where you read Steph? And did you like her immediately, or did it take a while?


In batman eternal, comic that I started with certain information about Steph and Cass past... I needed to know why the fans wanted them.. 

Inmediately? I don´t know, maybe she liked me a little in the first issue(good signal).. I supported her completely, before Cluemaster mentioned that reward for Spoiler..

----------


## millernumber1

> In batman eternal, comic that I started with certain information about Steph and Cass past... I needed to know why the fans wanted them.. 
> 
> Inmediately? I don´t know, maybe she liked me a little in the first issue(good signal).. I supported her completely, before Cluemaster mentioned that reward for Spoiler..


Ah, Batman Eternal. I still love that comic.  :Smile:  Especially issue 24!

----------


## dominus

> Very interesting! I'm so excited that the new Steph Batgirl trade is coming out in the next few weeks - it's so hard to get people hooked on something they can't read (legally, at least) .


O/T:

Years ago, a company was putting out DVDs with PDFs of full runs of comics and magazines. I picked up Amazing Spiderman, Mad Magazine, and I think one other one. (Not sure where they ended up after a few moves.) I want to say it was every issue from #1 until whatever they ended up at (early 2000s). If DC did something like this, I'd totally buy them. They could even have them in the digital store. Maybe charge people $1 per year/12 issues or so? It'd be almost free money for them. Just grab the scans that people have already put online (because, hey, they were put up illegally, are they really capable of suing?), watermark them, remove the ads, and boom.

----------


## millernumber1

> O/T:
> 
> Years ago, a company was putting out DVDs with PDFs of full runs of comics and magazines. I picked up Amazing Spiderman, Mad Magazine, and I think one other one. (Not sure where they ended up after a few moves.) I want to say it was every issue from #1 until whatever they ended up at (early 2000s). If DC did something like this, I'd totally buy them. They could even have them in the digital store. Maybe charge people $1 per year/12 issues or so? It'd be almost free money for them. Just grab the scans that people have already put online (because, hey, they were put up illegally, are they really capable of suing?), watermark them, remove the ads, and boom.


I mean...I really think DC needs to get on the Unlimited bandwagon, or an online subscription and archive option. Same price digital is nice for stores, but sucks for consumers.

Furthermore, I wish DC had some kind of archivist position who could interface with fans through twitter or something - I have so many questions. Like why isn't the third volume of Greg Rucka's run on Wonder Woman being released? What's up with all the titles that haven't been put up on comixology yet?

And where's my Steph solo series! (oh, wait, that's my dreams. Never mind.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Okay, team, pitch me the following!

DC ZOOM Steph title:

DC INK Steph title:

and the new hotness!

DC BLACK LABEL Steph title!

----------


## Frontier

When I think of a Steph DC Zoom title I think a cute, fun, series starring all three Batgirls on adventures together...

I think a Steph DC Ink title would probably deal with her growing up with her complicated home life and seeing her rise up or perservere from that, maybe ending up with her becoming Spoiler or leading into it or Steph moving into a life of fighting crime. 

Black Label? I dunno, give her to Kelly Sue DeConnick and let her run with it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> When I think of a Steph DC Zoom title I think a cute, fun, series starring all three Batgirls on adventures together...
> 
> I think a Steph DC Ink title would probably deal with her growing up with her complicated home life and seeing her rise up or perservere from that, maybe ending up with her becoming Spoiler or leading into it or Steph moving into a life of fighting crime. 
> 
> Black Label? I dunno, give her to Kelly Sue DeConnick and let her run with it .


Awesome! I actually would pitch the "all three Batgirls" series as my Black Label title - a dark world that needs all three Batgirls to bring it light. Sort of like the Future's End Batgirl that Simone did. Not sure what creative team I'd want - obviously BQM comes to mind, but he doesn't have that "highbrow" cachet that Black Label seems to be going for.

I think you're pretty much spot on with the Ink title - a Spoiler YA novel seems pretty much perfect. I'd pitch it for Richelle Mead or Shannon Hale.

For Zoom, I actually would want to see her in something like the Calling All Robins Brave and the Bold comic by Sholly Fisch, only as an ongoing series where all the Robins hang out and get into wacky adventures. Obviously Fisch would be perfect for the job, though I've always wondered why Yale Stewart of JL8 hasn't gotten more significant work from either of the big two. Probably lives in the wrong place and doesn't know any of the behind the scenes people. But I think he's shown he can do an excellent kid comic which also appeals to adults.

----------


## The Dying Detective

Not sure how I would do Ink but for Zoom I would try to think of something like funny adventure where Damian and Stephanie work together to try and get along based on their team up in her solo book. Black Label well I could for a story where Stephanie works as a matron in a Victorian orphanage in Whitechapel England and the main enemy will Jack the Ripper.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not sure how I would do Ink but for Zoom I would try to think of something like funny adventure where Damian and Stephanie work together to try and get along based on their team up in her solo book. Black Label well I could for a story where Stephanie works as a matron in a Victorian orphanage in Whitechapel England and the main enemy will Jack the Ripper.


Actually, I would think that a Robin and Batgirl (or Spoiler) team up between Damian and Steph could be really great as a Zoom title as well! I hadn't thought of that!

Ooooh, Black Label Spoiler: Protector of the Innocent spinoff of Gotham by Gaslight! I love it! And you could get Mignola or someone like that on art!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Okay, team, pitch me the following!
> 
> DC ZOOM Steph title:
> 
> DC INK Steph title:
> 
> and the new hotness!
> 
> DC BLACK LABEL Steph title!


Why stop there? Why not give her a NAoH book? Or a Sandman book? Or a Young Animal, Bendis, Vertigo or Hanna-Barbera book?! 

(I'll come up with actual suggestions later. Just that despite my excitement for the Sandman line and my enjoying a couple of the other books from these lines, I'm not exactly happy about DC making SO many of these, especially when I find the bulk of the books uninteresting)

----------


## millernumber1

> Why stop there? Why not give her a NAoH book? Or a Sandman book? Or a Young Animal, Vertigo or Hanna-Barbera book?! 
> 
> (I'll come up with actual suggestions later. Just that despite my excitement for the Sandman line and my enjoying a couple of the other books from these lines, I'm not exactly happy about DC making SO many of these, especially when I find the bulk of the books uninteresting)


I know you're humorously venting, but: NAoH - it's in continuity, and I don't see her fitting in any of those except maybe Sidways. And NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS since Didio is writing it (also a huge reason why I don't read it). Sandman...um? I guess I'd like to see her have wacky hijinks with Death, but Gaiman has never really played that much with Steph's type of character. Vertigo isn't in any DC continuity usually, is it? I don't have any interest in any of those books - they tend to be super horror themed, and I don't read or watch horror. Hanna-Barbera...I dunno about them, but I'd love to see a Steph team-up with Scooby-Doo like the Birds of Prey got a month ago!

Also: Young Animal Steph clearly needs to be a thing in this weird Mother Panic AD future.  :Smile: 

I do think the number of imprints is a bit silly, but I think that Black Label, Zoom, and Ink are the best I've seen of the imprints/lines, because Black Label is the kind of story we hope becomes a classic, like Alias, while the Zoom and Ink books are true entry points which will most likely get new readers, unlike a lot of these attempts to get non-comic-readers to read comics.

----------


## Assam

> Vertigo isn't in any DC continuity usually, is it?


Sometimes it is. 




> I do think the number of imprints is a bit silly


In my original post, I also forgot to mention the new Bendis imprint...




> because Black Label is the kind of story we hope becomes a classic


I find that writing something with the goal of it being a classic is a flawed intention which will only result in mediocrity. And that's without getting into the fact that I find most of DC's supposed 'classics' to not live up to their hype in the slightest. 




> while the Zoom and Ink books are true entry points which will most likely get new readers, unlike a lot of these attempts to get non-comic-readers to read comics.


And I get that completely, but, especially since Superman Smashes the Klan is the only book from any of these new imprints (save the Sandman books) I'm likely going to read, it's a bit frustrating to see all of this stuff getting made while the main DC line continues to suck so much.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Actually, I would think that a Robin and Batgirl (or Spoiler) team up between Damian and Steph could be really great as a Zoom title as well! I hadn't thought of that!
> 
> Ooooh, Black Label Spoiler: Protector of the Innocent spinoff of Gotham by Gaslight! I love it! And you could get Mignola or someone like that on art!


Thank you and I'm glad to be of service and I didn't think Damian and Stephanie could even work as a Zoom title not sure how it would though. In Spoiler: Protector of the Innocent supporting cast members can include Barbara Gordon as head matron, Tim Drake as a dashing young noble who empathizes with the poor and he sneaks out of his family's estate to find Jack the Ripper with the help of his African main Tamara who likes him and naturally he and Stephanie collide in their efforts to find Jack the Ripper.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you and I'm glad to be of service and I didn't think Damian and Stephanie could even work as a Zoom title not sure how it would though. In Spoiler: Protector of the Innocent supporting cast members can include Barbara Gordon as head matron, Tim Drake as a dashing young noble who empathizes with the poor and he sneaks out of his family's estate to find Jack the Ripper with the help of his African main Tamara who likes him and naturally he and Stephanie collide in their efforts to find Jack the Ripper.


Oooh, I like this elaboration! And Batman is a legend that only appears in the shadows, while Bruce Wayne is a silly rich guy who bumbles into weird situations that Steph has to save him from leading to him donating lots of money to the orphanage!

Last night I also thought that a Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate would be a pretty cool Black Label or Ink novel!

----------


## millernumber1

> In my original post, I also forgot to mention the new Bendis imprint...
> 
> I find that writing something with the goal of it being a classic is a flawed intention which will only result in mediocrity. And that's without getting into the fact that I find most of DC's supposed 'classics' to not live up to their hype in the slightest. 
> 
> And I get that completely, but, especially since Superman Smashes the Klan is the only book from any of these new imprints (save the Sandman books) I'm likely going to read, it's a bit frustrating to see all of this stuff getting made while the main DC line continues to suck so much.


Haha. Stephanie Brown: Self-Hating PI from Jinxworld! (I say this with affection, since I adore Jessica Jones.)

I do think that there's always a problem when you set out to make something great - like you're not doing that every time? But I think the serious nature of Black Label, and especially the idea that these are passion projects that aren't under the schedulling gun is promising. (Problem is, none of the writers or artists I can think of on the "highbrow" shortlist would pick Steph as a passion project - except for Dustin Nguyen, and he's probably not available with Descender and Lil Gotham).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oooh, I like this elaboration! And Batman is a legend that only appears in the shadows, while Bruce Wayne is a silly rich guy who bumbles into weird situations that Steph has to save him from leading to him donating lots of money to the orphanage!
> 
> Last night I also thought that a Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate would be a pretty cool Black Label or Ink novel!


Again thank you as for your Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate how do you figure having Nightwing work for Amanda Waller though?

----------


## millernumber1

> Again thank you as for your Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate how do you figure having Nightwing work for Amanda Waller though?


Well, at that point, I'm pretty sure Checkmate wasn't under Waller's control anymore. I don't know for sure, but she was forced out in Rucka's Checkmate series in 2007 (Checkmate #20), four years before Batgirl #24 came out.

Plus, Huntress and Mr. Terrific have worked for Checkmate at various times, so it's not like heroes couldn't do it.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, at that point, I'm pretty sure Checkmate wasn't under Waller's control anymore. I don't know for sure, but she was forced out in Rucka's Checkmate series in 2007 (Checkmate #20), four years before Batgirl #24 came out.
> 
> Plus, Huntress and Mr. Terrific have worked for Checkmate at various times, so it's not like heroes couldn't do it.


Yeah but if it's for a Black Label title Amanda Waller might be a must considering it's a mature imprint. But just to remind me for what demographic is Ink for and how could Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate fit into it?

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah but if it's for a Black Label title Amanda Waller might be a must considering it's a mature imprint. But just to remind me for what demographic is Ink for and how could Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate fit into it?


Ink is the YA market line. Zoom is the "for kids" line. I don't think Knightwing would work, since Steph would be in her twenties (though of course, you could age her down, since it would be AU). I just think a spy story starring Steph for Black Label could be pretty cool.

You're absolutely right that Waller could definitely be running Checkmate in the AU of a Black Label title. I was just thinking within continuity, silly me.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Ink is the YA market line. Zoom is the "for kids" line. I don't think Knightwing would work, since Steph would be in her twenties (though of course, you could age her down, since it would be AU). I just think a spy story starring Steph for Black Label could be pretty cool.
> 
> You're absolutely right that Waller could definitely be running Checkmate in the AU of a Black Label title. I was just thinking within continuity, silly me.


Thanks and so Knightwing is Stephanie forgive me if I didn't pick up on that sooner. I'm sure it would be something different because covert ops is something Stephanie doesn't really dabble in she's always been more of a street level heroine but that doesn't mean she shouldn't try her hand at cover ops. I can imagine Stephanie trying to play the femme fatale role in Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate and she's desperately trying to win her freedom form Waller. Heck that's what she's going to be engaging in Season 3 of Young Justice yes she just made the Team and will be working alongside Tim and Cassie Sandsmark.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks and so Knightwing is Stephanie forgive me if I didn't pick up on that sooner. I'm sure it would be something different because covert ops is something Stephanie doesn't really dabble in she's always been more of a street level heroine but that doesn't mean she shouldn't try her hand at cover ops. I can imagine Stephanie trying to play the femme fatale role in Knightwing: Agent of Checkmate and she's desperately trying to win her freedom form Waller. Heck that's what she's going to be engaging in Season 3 of Young Justice yes she just made the Team and will be working alongside Tim and Cassie Sandsmark.


Yes - there was a dream sequence in Batgirl #24 where Bryan Q. Miller had his artist (Pere Perez) draw huge beautiful splash pages of many storylines he had planned to write.  Here's the one for Knightwing:

Batgirl (2009-2011) 024-018.jpg

I mean, I don't want to be too derivative, but I think Dick and Steph are very similar in personality, so I imagine it a lot like Grayson.  :Smile: 

I can't wait for Young Justice season 3!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes - there was a dream sequence in Batgirl #24 where Bryan Q. Miller had his artist (Pere Perez) draw huge beautiful splash pages of many storylines he had planned to write.  Here's the one for Knightwing:
> 
> Batgirl (2009-2011) 024-018.jpg
> 
> I mean, I don't want to be too derivative, but I think Dick and Steph are very similar in personality, so I imagine it a lot like Grayson. 
> 
> I can't wait for Young Justice season 3!


I forgot about that possible future the only difference is that men are not chasing after Stephanie like mad compared to women and Dick hahaha! Young Justice Season 3 should be fun and I cna imagine Tim and Cassie being rivals for Tim's affections assuming Tim and Cassie did not break up off screen.

----------


## millernumber1

> I forgot about that possible future the only difference is that men are not chasing after Stephanie like mad compared to women and Dick hahaha! Young Justice Season 3 should be fun and I cna imagine Tim and Cassie being rivals for Tim's affections assuming Tim and Cassie did not break up off screen.


I personally want Steph to have a great storyline. I hope she's not like Batgirl last season, where she doesn't really have a personality or mission, not even a one-shot episode. I'd love to see Steph dating Tim, but I would rather not have a major love triangle. Not my favorite type of storyline, because I think everyone comes out looking bad.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I personally want Steph to have a great storyline. I hope she's not like Batgirl last season, where she doesn't really have a personality or mission, not even a one-shot episode. I'd love to see Steph dating Tim, but I would rather not have a major love triangle. Not my favorite type of storyline, because I think everyone comes out looking bad.


I hope so too because Season 2 suffered from having too many characters and not enough episodes to flesh them all out or give them significant roles the only new character who got to do anything significant was Jaime. And on top of that the founding members are still around in a different role. Maybe Cassie and Tim would have broken up off screen their relationship had no build up or anything they just put them together to try to create a poignant moment between Conner and Megan. So I would not be sad at all to see it go and should free Tim up for Stephanie to date just as long as they do it right. And if Stephanie doesn't get a role or a one shot episode there are more seasons in the works just as long as Darkseid isn't the only thing they have to make more stories.

----------


## adrikito

The batfamily:

batfamily.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> The batfamily:
> 
> batfamily.jpg


I love Steph's pose - it's so perfect for her character and joy!

----------


## Caivu

Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and it looks like the theory that Steph and Cass will see their times as Batgirl is correct.

Edit: removed image at his request.

----------


## millernumber1

> Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and it looks like the theory that Steph and Cass will see their times as Batgirl is correct:
> 
> Attachment 63296


Ooooh, on the cover! Woohoo!

Where was Raul streaming?

----------


## Caivu

> Where was Raul streaming?


Instagram. Might still be going.

----------


## millernumber1

> Instagram. Might still be going.


Hmm. What's his handle? My google fu is failing me.  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and it looks like the theory that Steph and Cass will see their times as Batgirl is correct:
> 
> Attachment 63296


WOW... Amazing..

----------


## Caivu

> Hmm. What's his handle? My google fu is failing me.


Pitey.

Also, important! General advisory: Please don't spread those screenshots further. He contacted me on Twitter and asked me to take them down, so I will.

----------


## Barbatos666

So I guess they'll star in something called Batgirls maybe. I'll give it a shot as long as its not written by the Bensons. They should hire Valentine.

----------


## millernumber1

> Pitey.
> 
> Also, important! General advisory: Please don't spread those screenshots further. He contacted me on Twitter and asked me to take them down, so I will.


Ah, thanks!

Bummer, but I can understand it.

But very exciting to see Steph on the cover! Even though we knew she was in the issue.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and it looks like the theory that Steph and Cass will see their times as Batgirl is correct:
> 
> Attachment 63296


Hmm I guess Cass and Stephanie aren't going to get the boot then I just hope Tynion is maneuvaring things in such a way that they cannot be ignored by whoever it is that takes over.

----------


## millernumber1

> Hmm I guess Cass and Stephanie aren't going to get the boot then I just hope Tynion is maneuvaring things in such a way that they cannot be ignored by whoever it is that takes over.


Cass definitely isn't getting the boot - she's on the cover of the last issue. I'm very worried about Steph, though, since she's not on the final cover, and that's not good news...

----------


## adrikito

This is the solicitation of this image:

DETECTIVE COMICS #980
“Batmen Eternal” part five! The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there’s nothing Batman can do to stop it...until *Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!*

I remember in Nightwing when he saw Damian in different realities(injustice, 666 batman).. Maybe this is possible again with Steph and Cass..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Cass definitely isn't getting the book - she's on the cover of the last issue. I'm very worried about Steph, though, since she's not on the final cover, and that's not good news...


Maybe there was no room to squeeze in Stephanie and covers always lie you know.

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe there was no room to squeeze in Stephanie and covers always lie you know.


Well, we know specifically that Tec covers can very much lie - on Tec 940, they originally had Tim on the cover, but took him off. I'm hoping against hope that they're going to put Steph on later, but...probably not.

----------


## adrikito

Maybe this is the way to change Orphan for Black Bat again.. Putting Black Bat alias in Cass mind again..

Recently, Raven remembered that she knows Cyborg..

*
DAMNIT... I forgot use the Gadwin Printscreens for save that image in my pc..*  :Mad:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, we know specifically that Tec covers can very much lie - on Tec 940, they originally had Tim on the cover, but took him off. I'm hoping against hope that they're going to put Steph on later, but...probably not.


Well if Stephanie finds her way into it great and I hope this is a sign that Stephanie is finally going to get over her self-absorbed issues they just haven't been good on her it's almost as bad as the time she started the Gotham Gang War.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Maybe this is the way to change Orphan for Black Bat again.. Putting Black Bat alias in Cass mind again..
> 
> Recently, Raven remembered that she knows Cyborg..
> 
> 
> DAMNIT... I forgot use the Gadwin Printscreens for save that image in my pc..


Black Bat can't be used because Black Bat is being used by an old pulp hero who is now publishing new stories.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well if Stephanie finds her way into it great and I hope this is a sign that Stephanie is finally going to get over her self-absorbed issues they just haven't been good on her it's almost as bad as the time she started the Gotham Gang War.


See, I don't think it's as bad as that. I think a large contingent of fans (including, of course, me) who thought that War Games made her really sympathetic, because she was screwed over by Batman when she was Robin, and was just trying to prove herself to Batman. Plus, she didn't WANT to start a war, she wanted to get the gangs under Batman's control. The plans (as far as I can tell) never said it would be a war, it said that Matches Malone would push the gangs under Orpheus.

I also think that Steph's motivations started out sympathetic here in the Victim Syndicate, but Tynion dragged her conflict out too far because of the Button's changes, and thus she's had to repeat herself instead of naturally growing (like it seemed she would).




> *
> DAMNIT... I forgot use the Gadwin Printscreens for save that image in my pc..*


Over on 4chan, the Tec thread is playing telephone with all this information. (And trying to dox me. Ahaha.)

----------


## adrikito

> Over on 4chan, the Tec thread is playing telephone with all this information. (And trying to dox me. Ahaha.)


Thanks, I saw Cass image too..

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks, I saw Cass image too..


I'm REALLY curious whose posting over there and here. Other than me, obviously.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> I'm REALLY curious whose posting over there and here. Other than me, obviously.


When I saw the posts in Cass topic, the image was erased... For this I liked see this in 4chan... THANKS..

----------


## millernumber1

> When I saw the posts in Cass topic, the image was erased... For this I liked see this in 4chan... THANKS..


Just make sure that you don't post it anywhere, out of respect for Caivu and Fernandez.

----------


## adrikito

> just make sure that you don't post it anywhere, out of respect for caivu and fernandez.


YOU CAN TRUST IN ME.. I will Never post this anywhere.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> See, I don't think it's as bad as that. I think a large contingent of fans (including, of course, me) who thought that War Games made her really sympathetic, because she was screwed over by Batman when she was Robin, and was just trying to prove herself to Batman. Plus, she didn't WANT to start a war, she wanted to get the gangs under Batman's control. The plans (as far as I can tell) never said it would be a war, it said that Matches Malone would push the gangs under Orpheus.
> 
> I also think that Steph's motivations started out sympathetic here in the Victim Syndicate, but Tynion dragged her conflict out too far because of the Button's changes, and thus she's had to repeat herself instead of naturally growing (like it seemed she would).


I mean sure Stephanie wanted to prove herself worthy of being Robin especially when Bruce only used her to lure Tim back to him and she was as much of a victim as she was an accidental instigator of the Gotham Gang War. Which when you put it that way makes her situation even more tragic than it already is. But unfortunately for some fans when she came back they felt feel that she should have owned up to causing it. If only Tim had been brought back sooner Stephanie's issues would been solved much a sooner though even when they came back they still didn't stop. She needs an arc to address them.

----------


## adrikito

> If only Tim had been brought back sooner Stephanie's issues would been solved much a sooner though even when they came back they still didn't stop. She needs an arc to address them.


And Tynion who created this problems will be out.... Damnit...

ONE BAD PREDICTION.... Based in when Tim dissapeared.. Steph will die too?   :Frown:   :Frown:  I can´t understand why Batwoman, Azrael and Batwing are in the Final Cover but Steph no.. Only because she hates now the vigilant life? Thanks Tynion..

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean sure Stephanie wanted to prove herself worthy of being Robin especially when Bruce only used her to lure Tim back to him and she was as much of a victim as she was an accidental instigator of the Gotham Gang War. Which when you put it that way makes her situation even more tragic than it already is. But unfortunately for some fans when she came back they felt feel that she should have owned up to causing it. If only Tim had been brought back sooner Stephanie's issues would been solved much a sooner though even when they came back they still didn't stop. She needs an arc to address them.


Yah, she needs an arc. But with this compression of Tynion's run, she's not going to get one.  :Frown: 

I feel like Steph did own up to her part in the gang war - she references her responsibility several times during her run as Batgirl.

Yep, Tim's return being delayed is a serious problem with the emotional connection to Steph's arc. Hopefully Tynion will do SOMETHING with her. Well. Okay. We KNOW he's going to, based on solicits and these cover teases. But hopefully it will be something really good, that gets the Steph fans at least happy with her ending.




> And Tynion who created this problems will be out.... Damnit...
> 
> ONE BAD PREDICTION.... Based in when Tim dissapeared.. Steph will die too?    I can´t understand why Batwoman, Azrael and Batwing are in the Final Cover but Steph no.. Only because she hates now the vigilant life?


Yeah, I'm really mad that Tynion is being forced to leave before he can get to 1000 and resolve all the plots he clearly had planned. League of Shadows, Jean Paul's father and Ascalon, and Steph's issues all needed at least one arc each to resolve.

I don't think Steph's going to die. Tynion, despite weirdo conspiracy theories, loves Tim, Steph, and Cass. He's not going to kill them.

That final cover without Steph makes me so sad and mad as well. I just hope that 980 makes it worthwhile.

----------


## Barbatos666

I dont think there's any indication that he's being forced to leave. He always tags along with Snyder so now that Snyder moved to JL line Tynion followed him.

----------


## millernumber1

> I dont think there's any indication that he's being forced to leave. He always tags along with Snyder so now that Snyder moved to JL line Tynion followed him.


Forced by project load. Not forced as in fired.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yah, she needs an arc. But with this compression of Tynion's run, she's not going to get one. 
> 
> I feel like Steph did own up to her part in the gang war - she references her responsibility several times during her run as Batgirl.
> 
> Yep, Tim's return being delayed is a serious problem with the emotional connection to Steph's arc. Hopefully Tynion will do SOMETHING with her. Well. Okay. We KNOW he's going to, based on solicits and these cover teases. But hopefully it will be something really good, that gets the Steph fans at least happy with her ending.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm really mad that Tynion is being forced to leave before he can get to 1000 and resolve all the plots he clearly had planned. League of Shadows, Jean Paul's father and Ascalon, and Steph's issues all needed at least one arc each to resolve.
> ...


Yeha and I don't think Tynion is compressing it out of choice. Hmm she did talk about causing the war? But I have to know though did she you know deal with the result directly because that would make more people happier with her. I mean if Stephanie had actually heard Batman when he tried to tell her that Tim was alive well her direction would have changed a little and then there can be an arc for her much earlier. but aside from the cover of the next issue what give you the impression it's going to be farewell to Stephanie for now? I wonder why Tynion is leaving? And you never know Wonder Woman fans thought James Robinson would never use Veronica Cale and he did the next writer of Detective comics could do the same.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeha and I don't think Tynion is compressing it out of choice. Hmm she did talk about causing the war? But I have to know though did she you know deal with the result directly because that would make more people happier with her. I mean if Stephanie had actually heard Batman when he tried to tell her that Tim was alive well her direction would have changed a little and then there can be an arc for her much earlier. but aside from the cover of the next issue what give you the impression it's going to be farewell to Stephanie for now? I wonder why Tynion is leaving? And you never know Wonder Woman fans thought James Robinson would never use Veronica Cale and he did the next writer of Detective comics could do the same.


Pretty sure she talks about her responsibility for it when talking to Babs in the second issue, and later in the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home issue. (All of which are on sale today at your local comic shop! Buy it today!  :Smile:  ).

I'm not sure how you deal with the result directly...unless you consider "being tortured almost to death to try to stop it"... Like, everyone in the Batfamily has screwed up. I don't know how else you could deal with it except to try to do better and make Gotham a safe place, which is what she did.

The whole "Steph doesn't know Tim's alive" that went on for multiple issues was another instance of the plotline being messed up by the Button, I think. (I'm just going to blame everything on that.)

Well, Steph is definitely not in this issue - she's not even mentioned like she was in 975. So I think she's gone until 980, and she's not on the cover or solicit for 981, so I think she's going to show up, and then be gone again.  :Frown:  But maybe I'm just being pessimistic because I'm sad about the whole situation - Steph gone, Steph's fans mad, Tynion leaving before he can fix it...

I'm certain Tynion is leaving because he is writing too many books to do Tec.

----------


## adrikito

> I don't think Steph's going to die. Tynion, despite weirdo conspiracy theories, loves Tim, Steph, and Cass. He's not going to kill them.
> 
> That final cover without Steph makes me so sad and mad as well. I just hope that 980 makes it worthwhile.


I was thinking in something like what happened with Black Mask... One fake death... Maybe she losing her memory in one accident and everyone believing that she is death(maybe except Tim) but... With Tynion out, nothing..

----------


## millernumber1

> I was thinking in something like what happened with Black Mask... One fake death... Maybe she losing her memory in one accident and everyone believing that she is death(maybe except Tim) but... With Tynion out, nothing..


Oh, jeeze. I hadn't thought of a fake death. But that would be really weird.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Pretty sure she talks about her responsibility for it when talking to Babs in the second issue, and later in the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home issue. (All of which are on sale today at your local comic shop! Buy it today!  ).
> 
> I'm not sure how you deal with the result directly...unless you consider "being tortured almost to death to try to stop it"... Like, everyone in the Batfamily has screwed up. I don't know how else you could deal with it except to try to do better and make Gotham a safe place, which is what she did.
> 
> The whole "Steph doesn't know Tim's alive" that went on for multiple issues was another instance of the plotline being messed up by the Button, I think. (I'm just going to blame everything on that.)
> 
> Well, Steph is definitely not in this issue - she's not even mentioned like she was in 975. So I think she's gone until 980, and she's not on the cover or solicit for 981, so I think she's going to show up, and then be gone again.  But maybe I'm just being pessimistic because I'm sad about the whole situation - Steph gone, Steph's fans mad, Tynion leaving before he can fix it...
> 
> I'm certain Tynion is leaving because he is writing too many books to do Tec.


I suppose all that does suffice however for the more angry fans dealing directly means well seeing Stephanie deal with someone a random civilian who was hurt by the war. Yeha but there was nothing stopping Tynion from crafting an arc involving Stephanie after Batman found out Tim was alive so why not huh? Well give or take given her current circumstances she will want little to do with te Batfamily unless she is forced into it. But just you try to keep a stiff upper lip.

----------


## millernumber1

> I suppose all that does suffice however for the more angry fans dealing directly means well seeing Stephanie deal with someone a random civilian who was hurt by the war. Yeha but there was nothing stopping Tynion from crafting an arc involving Stephanie after Batman found out Tim was alive so why not huh? Well give or take given her current circumstances she will want little to do with te Batfamily unless she is forced into it. But just you try to keep a stiff upper lip.


I'm trying to remember that there's room in our line of fandom for hope...but it's pretty hard sometimes.

Tynion did try to craft some mini arcs for Steph, and the first one (951) was pretty great, but the second one was a mess. Plus they were co-written by a guy who just isn't as good as Tynion.

----------


## AlvinDraper

guess you guys also saw the images with the batgirl steph, oh i'm not gonna post, but it make me so HAPPY! i absolutely love her as batgirl

----------


## AJpyro

Stephanie Batgirl vol 2 is now out.

----------


## millernumber1

> guess you guys also saw the images with the batgirl steph, oh i'm not gonna post, but it make me so HAPPY! i absolutely love her as batgirl


I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't want to get my hopes up, because DC has let me down so many times before (Convergence: Batgirl, anyone?), but...




> Stephanie Batgirl vol 2 is now out.


Yup! So pretty!

Steph vol 2.jpg

Only in LCS, so I have to wait two more weeks, I think, till I can get it on digital. (I'm buying digital because I just got all the original trades and single issues before they announced the new collections.)

----------


## AlvinDraper

> I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't want to get my hopes up, because DC has let me down so many times before (Convergence: Batgirl, anyone?), but...


Yeah..I hear you, Batgirl Convergence wasn't one of my fav, well at least timsteph was canon at the end...I loved that bit

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah..I hear you, Batgirl Convergence wasn't one of my fav, well at least timsteph was canon at the end...I loved that bit


I will defend Convergence: Batgirl more than most (largely because of the TimSteph), but it was not everything I'd waited for 4 years for. To be fair, very few things could bear that level of anticipation. But Future's End: Batgirl was much better.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> And Tynion who created this problems will be out.... Damnit...
> 
> ONE BAD PREDICTION.... Based in when Tim dissapeared.. Steph will die too?    I can´t understand why Batwoman, Azrael and Batwing are in the Final Cover but Steph no.. Only because she hates now the vigilant life? Thanks Tynion..


A fake death or maybe temporary retire could be in order I mean something will compel her to come back into action.

----------


## adrikito

> If you pay close attention to the YJ interviews it looks like spoiler, arrowette and 13 are there to be the new generation sidekicks for nightwing, artemis and superboy.


I think that we should see these interviews,* Miller*..




> yeah if you lesson t*o Brandon Vietti comic-con interviews* he says the new characters (spoiler, arrowette and 13) are there to continue the growth of the YJ universe and a new generation that was inspired by the season 1 core characters (you can see this with artemis saving arrowette's dad in season 1 and steph in season 2) and that they're there to bounce of the core characters (nightwing, artemis and superboy) as they move from mentee's to mentors in season 3.
> 
> i09 and comicbook.com (video interview) has some. and he doesn't say it out right but if you pay close attention and remember *spoiler arrowette and 13 are " new characers" and nightwing, artemis and superboy are "core characters" in the interviews.
> 
> Stephanie in YJ is a runaway from Bludhaven, her first small cameo was in the nightwing arc of the tie in comic at the end when dick got home and babs is there outside his apartment and dick walks past Stephanie's missing person's pic. Now in season 3 she's on dicks former team rocking escrima sticks on her back just like dick at the same time nightwing's moving form protégé to mentor.*

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm trying to remember that there's room in our line of fandom for hope...but it's pretty hard sometimes.
> 
> Tynion did try to craft some mini arcs for Steph, and the first one (951) was pretty great, but the second one was a mess. Plus they were co-written by a guy who just isn't as good as Tynion.


Nice reference to Stephanie's Batgirl series. I know it's hard but there might be some hope because you never know the future is full of surprises both good and bad you just have to take the bad and the good and soldier on. One of those arcs was how Stephanie took down Wrath I think if Batman had intervened it could lead to some development for Stephanie and for her to do tha tshows how she was contradicting her belief that vigilantes are bad for Gotham. And I believe the other one where she helped Anarky why did you think it was bad?

----------


## millernumber1

> Nice reference to Stephanie's Batgirl series. I know it's hard but there might be some hope because you never know the future is full of surprises both good and bad you just have to take the bad and the good and soldier on. One of those arcs was how Stephanie took down Wrath I think if Batman had intervened it could lead to some development for Stephanie and for her to do tha tshows how she was contradicting her belief that vigilantes are bad for Gotham. And I believe the other one where she helped Anarky why did you think it was bad?


The problem with a long-time Steph fan's view of the future is that we've had literally 25 years of Steph being shoved in a corner. I talked with the very nice Steph fans who helped create the Steph fan wikia linked in my signature (which I current moderate), and both of them left comics in 2011 when Steph was erased. Even when she came back in 2014, they didn't want to come back, because they had decades of frustration that just weren't being answered. I know other Steph fans who left in 2005 when Steph was tortured and killed, and didn't come back in 2008 for the same reasons. I've hung in there, even though I left comics in 2011, because when she came back in 2014, I was a big fan of Batman Eternal, not just her parts of it.

As for the Utopia/Dystopia arc, I thought that it was really frustrating because of the way Batman couldn't tell Steph that Tim was alive, and that Steph and Clayface both basically were going in circles - they made no progress in their struggles, but ended up right where they started. Plus the fight choreography and panel layouts were not nearly as well done as in the main series.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The problem with a long-time Steph fan's view of the future is that we've had literally 25 years of Steph being shoved in a corner. I talked with the very nice Steph fans who helped create the Steph fan wikia linked in my signature (which I current moderate), and both of them left comics in 2011 when Steph was erased. Even when she came back in 2014, they didn't want to come back, because they had decades of frustration that just weren't being answered. I know other Steph fans who left in 2005 when Steph was tortured and killed, and didn't come back in 2008 for the same reasons. I've hung in there, even though I left comics in 2011, because when she came back in 2014, I was a big fan of Batman Eternal, not just her parts of it.
> 
> As for the Utopia/Dystopia arc, I thought that it was really frustrating because of the way Batman couldn't tell Steph that Tim was alive, and that Steph and Clayface both basically were going in circles - they made no progress in their struggles, but ended up right where they started. Plus the fight choreography and panel layouts were not nearly as well done as in the main series.


I get what you mean being disappointed so many times can lead to one surrendering and the fact DC brought her back only to fumble with her before she could return to prominence. If only there was a way to give Tim a solo comic then Stephanie can appear there and she can finally get some good spotlight provided the writer is up to the task. Yeah but I can't believe Tynion made such a foolish move even with the work load he has to fumble Stephanie's development and looking back I wanted to see Stephanie turn around and ask, "What did you say?" That's one very tiny detail that's can't be hard to mess up.

----------


## millernumber1

> I get what you mean being disappointed so many times can lead to one surrendering and the fact DC brought her back only to fumble with her before she could return to prominence. If only there was a way to give Tim a solo comic then Stephanie can appear there and she can finally get some good spotlight provided the writer is up to the task. Yeah but I can't believe Tynion made such a foolish move even with the work load he has to fumble Stephanie's development and looking back I wanted to see Stephanie turn around and ask, "What did you say?" That's one very tiny detail that's can't be hard to mess up.


I can definitely believe Tynion made the mistake with Steph. He's doing the exact same dynamic with Tim right now, but because Tim has a focal point for the last several arcs rather than a pop up issue every now and then, it's much more successful.

----------


## Assam

At the very least I'm not worried that Steph is going to be killed. I wish I could say the same thing for Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> At the very least I'm not worried that Steph is going to be killed. I wish I could say the same thing for Cass.


Where are all these "Tynion will kill off Steph and Cass" theories coming from? I really don't see it happening at all.

----------


## Assam

> Where are all these "Tynion will kill off Steph and Cass" theories coming from? I really don't see it happening at all.


Never said anything about Tynion. It's _King_ I'm concerned about and his "There's a reason Cassandra Cain isn't here" quote regarding Batman Annual #2.

----------


## Bat-Meal

I don't know about any King quote, but as far as 'Tec goes there's no foreshadowing that I can see that points to Cass's demise.  She's just in a very bad place emotionally, losing Basil, and feeling completely betrayed by Kate (who she was also fairly close with and now thinks wants her dead).

I am somewhat confused about Steph though, in the Batwoman Rebirth first issue there was a flashback/forward(?) of Steph getting teary-eyed and asking Kate if she was leaving.  This indicated that Steph and Kate were going to get closer, but it hasn't happened - and time is pretty much up for them to get close (in 'Tec anyway).

----------


## millernumber1

> Never said anything about Tynion. It's _King_ I'm concerned about and his "There's a reason Cassandra Cain isn't here" quote regarding Batman Annual #2.


I don't think that is an indicator of death - I still think she is on a secret mission.




> I don't know about any King quote, but as far as 'Tec goes there's no foreshadowing that I can see that points to Cass's demise.  She's just in a very bad place emotionally, losing Basil, and feeling completely betrayed by Kate (who she was also fairly close with and now thinks wants her dead).
> 
> I am somewhat confused about Steph though, in the Batwoman Rebirth first issue there was a flashback/forward(?) of Steph getting teary-eyed and asking Kate if she was leaving.  This indicated that Steph and Kate were going to get closer, but it hasn't happened - and time is pretty much up for them to get close (in 'Tec anyway).


Well, I think that was likely something Tynion wanted to get to that Bennett hasn't gotten to yet (or changed so it will never happen).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I can definitely believe Tynion made the mistake with Steph. He's doing the exact same dynamic with Tim right now, but because Tim has a focal point for the last several arcs rather than a pop up issue every now and then, it's much more successful.


Yeah well this is Tynion's last chance to get something right the only arc I really liked was A Lonely Place of Living I just hope that the plans he has for Stephanie leave a strong enough impact that the next writer will want to use her. Because if he can make her likable enough then the next writer will want her.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah well this is Tynion's last chance to get something right


If I had to make a bet, I'd say Steph is going to make an appearance in #977, but she won't actually get involved in the plot again till #978. 




> the only arc I really liked was A Lonely Place of Living


It would take a re-read of both for me to decide whether I think Lonely Place of Living or Fall of the Batmen was the worst arc of Tynion's run. (Just based on the first issue, I don't think it's gonna be Batmen Eternal) I'm currently leaning more towards Lonely Place as while I think there are far more things wrong with FotB, some of the emotional moments did land and there were some small bits of clever storytelling.  Lonely Place was just a big nothing burger. 




> I just hope that the plans he has for Stephanie leave a strong enough impact that the next writer will want to use her. Because if he can make her likable enough then the next writer will want her.


That's _really_ not how that works dude. If Steph is staying out of limbo, it isn't gonna be in non-Tynion 'Tec.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah well this is Tynion's last chance to get something right the only arc I really liked was A Lonely Place of Living I just hope that the plans he has for Stephanie leave a strong enough impact that the next writer will want to use her. Because if he can make her likable enough then the next writer will want her.


Interesting! I have actually really liked, if not loved, every single arc except Utopia/Distopia. Rise of the Batmen - nice setup (if a bit "HERE'S THE WAY THINGS HAVE MAGICALLY SETUP") with a very well done emotional climax, Victim Syndicate a nice, chilling team breakdown story, League of Shadows - a bit overlong and unresolved since I think it was supposed to be setup for an arc that isn't happening now, but I loved the Cass stuff, and seeing Shiva back was awesome, Wrath of Spoiler was a really fun peek at Steph's life, Intelligence is probably the most consistent and a spotlight on my fave underused characters (plus the art is AMAZING), Lonely Place of Living is overly crammed full of stuff for four issues, but I love how Tim interacts with the team again, and it's nice to see the original art team working together for the last time, and Fall of the Batmen was a really awesome tragedy of Clayface and Cass. Hopefully Batmen Eternal turns out to be a fitting climax.

I know I'm probably the only person who is reading Tec who likes all the arcs as much as I do - even Caivu thinks League of Shadows is pretty weak, whereas I was pretty much onboard with it all. I'm planning to do a readhthrough of the whole series, an issue a day, leading up to 981, starting in April, and I'm very excited about that. (Originally, if we'd gotten to 1000 with Tynion, I was going to read Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal in addition to the Tec run, but that is not to be.  :Frown:  )

I'll be happy if he just gives Steph heroism again, instead of "Being a hero is bad." I NEED HEROIC STEPH! You do not know how much I need her!

----------


## millernumber1

> If I had to make a bet, I'd say Steph is going to make an appearance in #977, but she won't actually get involved in the plot again till #978.  
> 
> That's _really_ not how that works dude. If Steph is staying out of limbo, it isn't gonna be in non-Tynion 'Tec.


With Cass, Tim, and Kate's plotlines, I don't see how there's going to be room for Steph, unless Tynion finally starts building the Steph and Cass relationship back up. I think she's literally just appearing in 980, and that's it.  :Frown: 

If Tomasi's writing Tec as all of us Steph and Cass fans dread, you're right. However...I have a tiny sliver of hope that he's going somewhere else. But it's pretty tiny. FOUR DAYS.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If I had to make a bet, I'd say Steph is going to make an appearance in #977, but she won't actually get involved in the plot again till #978.


And what made you think that?






> It would take a re-read of both for me to decide whether I think Lonely Place of Living or Fall of the Batmen was the worst arc of Tynion's run. (Just based on the first issue, I don't think it's gonna be Batmen Eternal) I'm currently leaning more towards Lonely Place as while I think there are far more things wrong with FotB, some of the emotional moments did land and there were some small bits of clever storytelling.  Lonely Place was just a big nothing burger.


Different strokes for different people I guess






> That's _really_ not how that works dude. If Steph is staying out of limbo, it isn't gonna be in non-Tynion 'Tec.


How do you figure because I've been affected by the paranoia that once Tynion leaves no one will use her.

----------


## Assam

> Interesting! I have actually really liked, if not loved, every single arc except Utopia/Distopia. Rise of the Batmen - nice setup (if a bit "HERE'S THE WAY THINGS HAVE MAGICALLY SETUP") with a very well done emotional climax, Victim Syndicate a nice, chilling team breakdown story, League of Shadows - a bit overlong and unresolved since I think it was supposed to be setup for an arc that isn't happening now, but I loved the Cass stuff, and seeing Shiva back was awesome, Wrath of Spoiler was a really fun peek at Steph's life, Intelligence is probably the most consistent and a spotlight on my fave underused characters (plus the art is AMAZING), Lonely Place of Living is overly crammed full of stuff for four issues, but I love how Tim interacts with the team again, and it's nice to see the original art team working together for the last time, and Fall of the Batmen was a really awesome tragedy of Clayface and Cass. Hopefully Batmen Eternal turns out to be a fitting climax.


While there are parts of this run I'll certainly remember fondly, I don't think I'll be returning to any of these stories. RotB remains the most well put together arc but also the most generic, Victim Syndicate both fails without the proper follow up on Steph's story and I _really_ hate the Syndicate themselves (and not in a good way), League of Shadows was a sloppy mixed bag that _really_ should have been a smaller story that kept the focus on Cass (anytime it WAS about her it was great), Wrath of Spoiler was decent but nothing special, Intelligence is the arc I maintain could have been something really special if they'd just cut the Zatanna story and without follow-up on the story it gets worse, Utopia was s**t, and you know I really didn't like LPoL or FotB. 




> With Cass, Tim, and Kate's plotlines, I don't see how there's going to be room for Steph, unless Tynion finally starts building the Steph and Cass relationship back up. I think she's literally just appearing in 980, and that's it.


I could see getting involved in Tim or (preferably) Cass's stories. Although #978 may be a bit generous. Hopefully she'll be around at least by #979. With a solicit as generic as that one had, there's bound to be something hidden there. 




> FOUR DAYS.


In half an hour (my time), only 3.

----------


## Assam

> And what made you think that?


Just my thinking as a writer. _6 parts. She's gonna be important by part 5. She wasn't in part 1. Part 2 will likely end the 'first act' of the story so she should appear there to set her up. She should get involved in the story during the second act and before she becomes crucial, so that'll happen in part 3 or 4._




> How do you figure because I've been affected by the paranoia that once Tynion leaves no one will use her.


Even if Tomasi isn't the writer, the Knights aren't sticking around as 'main characters'. I'll be genuinely shocked if they do. For Steph to keep having a home, her best bet, awful as this sounds, would be to come as a package deal with Cass or Tim, either to a 'Batgirls' book or whatever team book Tim lands in.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Interesting! I have actually really liked, if not loved, every single arc except Utopia/Distopia. Rise of the Batmen - nice setup (if a bit "HERE'S THE WAY THINGS HAVE MAGICALLY SETUP") with a very well done emotional climax, Victim Syndicate a nice, chilling team breakdown story, League of Shadows - a bit overlong and unresolved since I think it was supposed to be setup for an arc that isn't happening now, but I loved the Cass stuff, and seeing Shiva back was awesome, Wrath of Spoiler was a really fun peek at Steph's life, Intelligence is probably the most consistent and a spotlight on my fave underused characters (plus the art is AMAZING), Lonely Place of Living is overly crammed full of stuff for four issues, but I love how Tim interacts with the team again, and it's nice to see the original art team working together for the last time, and Fall of the Batmen was a really awesome tragedy of Clayface and Cass. Hopefully Batmen Eternal turns out to be a fitting climax.
> 
> I know I'm probably the only person who is reading Tec who likes all the arcs as much as I do - even Caivu thinks League of Shadows is pretty weak, whereas I was pretty much onboard with it all. I'm planning to do a read through of the whole series, an issue a day, leading up to 981, starting in April, and I'm very excited about that. (Originally, if we'd gotten to 1000 with Tynion, I was going to read Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal in addition to the Tec run, but that is not to be.  )
> 
> I'll be happy if he just gives Steph heroism again, instead of "Being a hero is bad." I NEED HEROIC STEPH! You do not know how much I need her!


Everyone likes different things some are just more selective than others I enjoyed A Lonely Place of Living partly because it fixed Tim's origin and the Batman of Tomorrow was a fairly good villain and it great to see all the Robins gather to fight him. And I'm sure someone out there likes most of the arcs of Detective Comics. If Tynion is going to acknowledge Stephanie _and_ Cassandra Cain tenures as Batgirl it must be something special and hopefully this time Stephanie can go back to loving being a heroine and to plan a stppry to do isn't all that hard I hope No Justice isn't keeping him too busy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Just my thinking as a writer. _6 parts. She's gonna be important by part 5. She wasn't in part 1. Part 2 will likely end the 'first act' of the story so she should appear there to set her up. She should get involved in the story during the second act and before she becomes crucial, so that'll happen in part 3 or 4._


If she isn't in part 5 i'd be surprised any thoughts on what her role should be given the circumstances?





> Even if Tomasi isn't the writer, the Knights aren't sticking around as 'main characters'. I'll be genuinely shocked if they do. For Steph to keep having a home, her best bet, awful as this sounds, would be to come as a package deal with Cass or Tim, either to a 'Batgirls' book or whatever team book Tim lands in.


So you're expecting a demotion though Tomasi did at least make some use of Tim in Super Sons of Tomorrow was a good or bad use? Depends on your perspective. Well fingers crossed that one of them cna get a book all for themselves.

----------


## millernumber1

> I could see getting involved in Tim or (preferably) Cass's stories. Although #978 may be a bit generous. Hopefully she'll be around at least by #979. With a solicit as generic as that one had, there's bound to be something hidden there. 
> 
> In half an hour (my time), only 3.


THREE DAYS! (though it's not 12am Monday - i think it's like 3 or 4 or 5pm Monday.)

I would LOVE to see her involved with Cass. With my luck, she's probably just screwing around in Monstertown with Harper. Why do I think of these things? I think if anything, she may show up in the last page of 979, like Anarky in Wrath of Spoiler. The ONE THING I liked about Utopia/Dystopia was that Steph rejected the Anarky romance. I just don't have any desire for more Steph triangles.




> Even if Tomasi isn't the writer, the Knights aren't sticking around as 'main characters'. I'll be genuinely shocked if they do. For Steph to keep having a home, her best bet, awful as this sounds, would be to come as a package deal with Cass or Tim, either to a 'Batgirls' book or whatever team book Tim lands in.


If they finally let Steph be part of a Teen Titans or Young Justice books, I could see that happening. But they've never let her actually join the teams, so...




> Everyone likes different things some are just more selective than others I enjoyed A Lonely Place of Living partly because it fixed Tim's origin and the Batman of Tomorrow was a fairly good villain and it great to see all the Robins gather to fight him. And I'm sure someone out there likes most of the arcs of Detective Comics. If Tynion is going to acknowledge Stephanie _and_ Cassandra Cain tenures as Batgirl it must be something special and hopefully this time Stephanie can go back to loving being a heroine and to plan a stppry to do isn't all that hard I hope No Justice isn't keeping him too busy.


I also enjoyed the restoration of some of continuity (though I hope they've kept Tim's parents alive - the one thing about the n52 origin that most people liked). I wasn't that interested in Bat-Tim, but I liked the emotion of his farewell to Tim.

NOPE Justice is definitely going to keep all of Snyder's buddies busy. Sometimes I wonder what he would have done if he hadn't gotten Batman and the power to bring in so many collaborators, because he really doesn't seem to like working solo that much. (I also wish he'd just give it up and be an editor, since that's the function he's really been filling for the last three years. As an editor, he wouldn't feel the obsessive need to push Duke or his random Joker obsession. And since he's a fan of Cass and Steph, he might actually push them out of just one book at a time, since he wouldn't have to write them.)




> If she isn't in part 5 i'd be surprised any thoughts on what her role should be given the circumstances?
> 
> So you're expecting a demotion though Tomasi did at least make some use of Tim in Super Sons of Tomorrow was a good or bad use? Depends on your perspective. Well fingers crossed that one of them cna get a book all for themselves.


Tomasi...doesn't have much respect for present day Tim (at least, that's how I read it in whenever Tim showed up in Batman and Robin). Bat-Tim was a villain, so Tomasi didn't have to make it work with his contempt for present Tim.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I also enjoyed the restoration of some of continuity (though I hope they've kept Tim's parents alive - the one thing about the n52 origin that most people liked). I wasn't that interested in Bat-Tim, but I liked the emotion of his farewell to Tim.
> 
> NOPE Justice is definitely going to keep all of Snyder's buddies busy. Sometimes I wonder what he would have done if he hadn't gotten Batman and the power to bring in so many collaborators, because he really doesn't seem to like working solo that much. (I also wish he'd just give it up and be an editor, since that's the function he's really been filling for the last three years. As an editor, he wouldn't feel the obsessive need to push Duke or his random Joker obsession. And since he's a fan of Cass and Steph, he might actually push them out of just one book at a time, since he wouldn't have to write them.)
> 
> 
> 
> Tomasi...doesn't have much respect for present day Tim (at least, that's how I read it in whenever Tim showed up in Batman and Robin). Bat-Tim was a villain, so Tomasi didn't have to make it work with his contempt for present Tim.


I didn't read any stories involving Tim's New 52 origin but from I what gathered it was very complicated. If Tim's parents are alive and still are maybe he should go back to them and get patched up emotionally. The old one was much simpler. Snyder seems to be in the running for Batman editor with how much power he has to get people to help him with his big plans. I wonder whether that's his goal. How is Snyder a fan of Cass and Stephanie? How did Tim act under Tomasi when he wrote Batman and Robin? Or was he trying to play with Tim's jealousy towards Damian? Well at least Tomasi let Tim's future self depart into the time stream as hero that's something worth noting

----------


## adrikito

> Never said anything about Tynion. It's _King_ I'm concerned about and his "There's a reason Cassandra Cain isn't here" quote regarding Batman Annual #2.


... Is something strange.. We hope that is not something bad..  :Frown:

----------


## Miles To Go

Wait, so the Batman annual's future IS canon?

----------


## Assam

> Wait, so the Batman annual's future IS canon?


No it isn't, but unless he was just covering up his tracks for leaving her out, there wouldn't be a 'reason' she wasn't there if he wasn't planning on involving that potential future again/having things look like they're leading to it. Personally I'm hoping he's off the book after the wedding. Sure he said he wants to do 100 issues, but Tynion wanted to get to 1000 and we saw how that worked out.

----------


## millernumber1

> I didn't read any stories involving Tim's New 52 origin but from I what gathered it was very complicated. If Tim's parents are alive and still are maybe he should go back to them and get patched up emotionally. The old one was much simpler. Snyder seems to be in the running for Batman editor with how much power he has to get people to help him with his big plans. I wonder whether that's his goal. How is Snyder a fan of Cass and Stephanie? How did Tim act under Tomasi when he wrote Batman and Robin? Or was he trying to play with Tim's jealousy towards Damian? Well at least Tomasi let Tim's future self depart into the time stream as hero that's something worth noting


A lot of Tim Drake fans HATED the n52 origin. I personally didn't hate it, but I didn't think it was better than the old one either. Except for one thing: Tim's parents didn't die. That was huge for me.

No, I think Snyder doesn't want to be editor, which is why he hasn't become one. Though I'm also curious to know if Snyder's name sells enough by itself for DC to want to keep him as at least a co-writer on everything they can.

Snyder has said many times in the past (and has been corroborated by some fans who have talked to him at conventions) that he loves Steph and Cass. He said he loved writing Steph in Batman Eternal, and he lent his name to Gates of Gotham and Batman and Robin Eternal, which were both significant Cass stories (like them or not).

Tomasi wrote Tim as a self-righteous hypocrite who is easily psyched out by boy genius Damian, or dismissed by Batman during the grief period for Damian's death. It's not a pretty look, even with Gleason's really nice art. If I didn't already have a grudge for Tomasi doing his best to erase Steph and Cass, that would leave a stain on my opinion of his writing.




> No it isn't, but unless he was just covering up his tracks for leaving her out, there wouldn't be a 'reason' she wasn't there if he wasn't planning on involving that potential future again/having things look like they're leading to it. Personally I'm hoping he's off the book after the wedding. Sure he said he wants to do 100 issues, but Tynion wanted to get to 1000 and we saw how that worked out.


I think the Batman Annual #2 future is no more or less canon than the Titans of Tomorrow future. But it's irrelevant, because there's no way DC is going to pull a Future's End and try to make every book act as a prequel to that future. And whenever the next popular writer comes up with a future storyline, that's going to be the future du jour.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A lot of Tim Drake fans HATED the n52 origin. I personally didn't hate it, but I didn't think it was better than the old one either. Except for one thing: Tim's parents didn't die. That was huge for me.
> 
> No, I think Snyder doesn't want to be editor, which is why he hasn't become one. Though I'm also curious to know if Snyder's name sells enough by itself for DC to want to keep him as at least a co-writer on everything they can.
> 
> Snyder has said many times in the past (and has been corroborated by some fans who have talked to him at conventions) that he loves Steph and Cass. He said he loved writing Steph in Batman Eternal, and he lent his name to Gates of Gotham and Batman and Robin Eternal, which were both significant Cass stories (like them or not).
> 
> Tomasi wrote Tim as a self-righteous hypocrite who is easily psyched out by boy genius Damian, or dismissed by Batman during the grief period for Damian's death. It's not a pretty look, even with Gleason's really nice art. If I didn't already have a grudge for Tomasi doing his best to erase Steph and Cass, that would leave a stain on my opinion of his writing.


I think the element where Tim's parents were alive was the only thing worth liking about his new origin and the reboot regards to how if affected Tim I don't think his love ones dropping like flies flew well with fans back then. Too bad everyone who tried to write Tim just couldn't get his character right. I really wonder why they didn't at least do their homework on him despite the reboot? I suppose Snyder enjoys writing more so than editing though you would think he is one since he can assemble teams to help him. Well given how he was given the role of writer for Justice League he seems to be quite popular in the office. I see well too bad though editorial interfered and kept him from using them so he substituted Stephanie with Harper Row. Oh I see well it still doesn't change the ending he chose for Tim''s future self which was that of a hero not a villain the more immature route would have him die like some evil maniac.But I see your point but if Tomasi comes on and just demotes Tim at least it's a kinder fate than making him a self-righteous hypocrite again.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think the element where Tim's parents were alive was the only thing worth liking about his new origin and the reboot regards to how if affected Tim I don't think his love ones dropping like flies flew well with fans back then. Too bad everyone who tried to write Tim just couldn't get his character right. I really wonder why they didn't at least do their homework on him despite the reboot? I suppose Snyder enjoys writing more so than editing though you would think he is one since he can assemble teams to help him. Well given how he was given the role of writer for Justice League he seems to be quite popular in the office. I see well too bad though editorial interfered and kept him from using them so he substituted Stephanie with Harper Row. Oh I see well it still doesn't change the ending he chose for Tim''s future self which was that of a hero not a villain the more immature route would have him die like some evil maniac.But I see your point but if Tomasi comes on and just demotes Tim at least it's a kinder fate than making him a self-righteous hypocrite again.


I mean, this isn't the Tim thread, so I don't want to get too deep in the weeds here, but I do think that Tynion was really solid on writing Tim in Batman Eternal, and Seeley, Lanzig and Kelly got some really solid moments for Tim in Batman and Robin Eternal. His cameos in series like Gotham Academy were also pretty fun. It was mostly when Lobdell was writing Tim that it didn't work for people.

I can't tell if Snyder likes writing more than editing. He does so much co-writing, and the way that process is described sounds an awful lot like editing for him. We don't even know what exactly he's doing with NOPE JUSTICE. He's got two co-writers on that...

I really, really want to get SOMEONE on record about Harper being the result of not being able to use Steph and Cass. But I keep forgetting to ask Tynion. I'm hoping to see him at AwesomeCon soon, so hopefully I'll remember it then.

----------


## Assam

> I really, really want to get SOMEONE on record about Harper being the result of not being able to use Steph and Cass. But I keep forgetting to ask Tynion. I'm hoping to see him at AwesomeCon soon, so hopefully I'll remember it then.


Oh neat, I didn't even know about that con. But yeah, it'd be cool if you got corroboration on that. And maybe if they're not in this Monday's solicits you could ask about the future of the two in  spoiler free way (Ex. Will fans of the two be happy with whatever's planned for them?) since he isn't answering anything resembling that on Twitter.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh neat, I didn't even know about that con. But yeah, it'd be cool if you got corroboration on that. And maybe if they're not in this Monday's solicits you could ask about the future of the two in  spoiler free way (Ex. Will fans of the two be happy with whatever's planned for them?) since he isn't answering anything resembling that on Twitter.


I generally have a policy of not asking about future plans, because I don't like putting writers in a spot where they have to say no. And I always have questions about stuff that's already released. I dunno. I don't enjoy the canned vague hints I usually see in panels or in interviews - I want details, not attempt at hype.

I'm really going back and forth about whether I want to ask him about the negative reaction to Steph's storyline, though. Because I still think it's defensible, but it's definitely a serious weakness of the series, and fans have not reacted well.

----------


## Assam

> I generally have a policy of not asking about future plans, because I don't like putting writers in a spot where they have to say no. And I always have questions about stuff that's already released. I dunno. I don't enjoy the canned vague hints I usually see in panels or in interviews - I want details, not attempt at hype.


Fair enough. For me it's just a matter of wanting to have something to actually hope for/look forward to, as, especially in this case, blind faith isn't something I'm capable of.

----------


## millernumber1

> Fair enough. For me it's just a matter of wanting to have something to actually hope for/look forward to, as, especially in this case, blind faith isn't something I'm capable of.


Oh, I totally get that. I definitely don't have blind faith in Tynion, either, though I generally like or love most of what he does with Batman and the Batfam. But I know he tends to stumble with endings (even the Eternals, which I defend, are not strongest in their endings.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, this isn't the Tim thread, so I don't want to get too deep in the weeds here, but I do think that Tynion was really solid on writing Tim in Batman Eternal, and Seeley, Lanzig and Kelly got some really solid moments for Tim in Batman and Robin Eternal. His cameos in series like Gotham Academy were also pretty fun. It was mostly when Lobdell was writing Tim that it didn't work for people.
> 
> I can't tell if Snyder likes writing more than editing. He does so much co-writing, and the way that process is described sounds an awful lot like editing for him. We don't even know what exactly he's doing with NOPE JUSTICE. He's got two co-writers on that...
> 
> I really, really want to get SOMEONE on record about Harper being the result of not being able to use Steph and Cass. But I keep forgetting to ask Tynion. I'm hoping to see him at AwesomeCon soon, so hopefully I'll remember it then.


Yeah that's fair so more people could write Tim better than expected it was when Lobdell took over Teen Titans and that tainted Tim's character in the long run because that was the book where Tim appeared int the most. I don't know Snyder wrote All Star Batman all on his own co-writing could either be a sign that Snyder is in over his head and he needs help or DC just enjoys attaching his name to anything they do these days. And I thought he had three co-writers on No Justice? And I hope you remember to ask him at AwesomeCon I know I can't be there to do it myself or remind you because I live one million kilometers away from America.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah that's fair so more people could write Tim better than expected it was when Lobdell took over Teen Titans and that tainted Tim's character in the long run because that was the book where Tim appeared int the most. I don't know Snyder wrote All Star Batman all on his own co-writing could either be a sign that Snyder is in over his head and he needs help or DC just enjoys attaching his name to anything they do these days. And I thought he had three co-writers on No Justice? And I hope you remember to ask him at AwesomeCon I know I can't be there to do it myself or remind you because I live one million kilometers away from America.


After writing Batman in the n52, Snyder's written 14 issues of ASB and 6 issues of Metal solo in two years. That's 20 issues, significantly fewer than one a month. Now, he's been co-writing a ridiculous number of books, so I'm not saying he's lazy by any means, but he's clearly much more interested in guiding and collaborating on larger projects than he is in actually being a solo writer. I don't think he's over his head, he just doesn't have the ability or inclination to write every idea that is in his head, so he farms them out. And DC definitely loves attaching the Snyder name, because people just love buying those Snyder books. Except for me.

He has Tynion and Williamson on NOPE JUSTICE. I don't know about a fourth?

I hope I remember too! But you can always DM me on the day before the con.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> After writing Batman in the n52, Snyder's written 14 issues of ASB and 6 issues of Metal solo in two years. That's 20 issues, significantly fewer than one a month. Now, he's been co-writing a ridiculous number of books, so I'm not saying he's lazy by any means, but he's clearly much more interested in guiding and collaborating on larger projects than he is in actually being a solo writer. I don't think he's over his head, he just doesn't have the ability or inclination to write every idea that is in his head, so he farms them out. And DC definitely loves attaching the Snyder name, because people just love buying those Snyder books. Except for me.
> 
> He has Tynion and Williamson on NOPE JUSTICE. I don't know about a fourth?
> 
> I hope I remember too! But you can always DM me on the day before the con.


Well the path to good writing good is built by having a team or so I've been told but it's a little ridiculous that Snyder keeps pulling every writer he thinks of into his projects that he may or may not be able to do himself. Inter-office politics are messy business especially in a comic book company. I guess Snyder is not for everyone probably because of the Batgod thing I heard he's been doing. And I was just guessing one whether or not Snyder had a fourth writer on no Justice working for him. I can try but I need to know the date and the time of AwesomeCon.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well the path to good writing good is built by having a team or so I've been told but it's a little ridiculous that Snyder keeps pulling every writer he thinks of into his projects that he may or may not be able to do himself. Inter-office politics are messy business especially in a comic book company. I guess Snyder is not for everyone probably because of the Batgod thing I heard he's been doing. And I was just guessing one whether or not Snyder had a fourth writer on no Justice working for him. I can try but I need to know the date and the time of AwesomeCon.


It does seem like Snyder isn't playing fair with the other writers. On the other hand, he did get them into the business, and he's been a huge part of their success. So it's probably a both directions thing.

AwesomeCon is the weekend of the 30th of March.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It does seem like Snyder isn't playing fair with the other writers. On the other hand, he did get them into the business, and he's been a huge part of their success. So it's probably a both directions thing.
> 
> AwesomeCon is the weekend of the 30th of March.


And I thought mentoring was a dead practice in the comic book industry but clearly it is around to an extent if Snyder is helping Tynion and Williamson. Reporting for duty!

----------


## Assam

> It does seem like Snyder isn't playing fair with the other writers. On the other hand, he did get them into the business, and he's been a huge part of their success. So it's probably a both directions thing.


While this is true for Tynion, I'm fairly positive it isn't for Williamson. He'd been an indie writer for years before he started doing regular DC work and he had multiple highly acclaimed books come out in between his brief Voodoo run and his current Flash run. Far as I'm aware Snyder's only involvement  was providing general support, being the one to tell him he should pitch a book to DC for Rebirth and helping him with said pitch.

----------


## millernumber1

> While this is true for Tynion, I'm fairly positive it isn't for Williamson. He'd been an established indie writer for years before he started doing DC work and he had multiple highly acclaimed books come out in between his brief Voodoo run and his current Flash run. Far as I'm aware Snyder's only involvement  was providing general support, being the one to tell him he should pitch a book to DC for Rebirth and helping him with said pitch.


Yeah, Snyder has been a very strong mentor for a lot of writers, but not Williamson. He's mentored Tynion, Higgins, and Bennett, at least.

----------


## Assam

> He's mentored Tynion, Higgins, and Bennett, at least.


Just goes to a show that a mentor isn't everything considering the MASSIVE skill gaps between those three, at least IMO.

----------


## millernumber1

> Just goes to a show that a mentor isn't everything considering the MASSIVE skill gaps between those three, at least IMO.


I mean, I also think there's a pretty big difference between them, but I'm pretty sure we'd judge the skill levels differently.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I mean, I also think there's a pretty big difference between them, but I'm pretty sure we'd judge the skill levels differently.


I'm guessing the main difference is that you think Tynion is far and away the best while I think Higgens is well above the others.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm guessing the main difference is that you think Tynion is far and away the best while I think Higgens is well above the others.


You got it! I think a lot of our affection for one or the other has to do with how much we like certain storylines connected to Steph and Cass. If Higgins had ever done a Steph storyline, I might think he's comparable to Tynion. But I'm still pretty mad about his "Babs miscarries Bruce's baby" plotline in Batman Beyond, and even if you discount a lot of the flaws in his Nightwing n52 run, I don't think Nightwing: The New Order was a standout work. Perfectly enjoyable, but not anywhere close to reaching the heights Tynion has hit with stuff like Batman and Robin Eternal #13, or the best arcs of Tec.

Actually, I think I'd say that Tynion is the most consistently effective, Higgins is perhaps more skilled on a dialogue level but falls down structurally more often, and Bennett just doesn't appeal to me at all (which isn't the same as a skill evaluation, but I'm really unimpressed with her writing quality in Batwoman and in Bombshells, even if she did write a good tie-in comic for Batman v. Superman with Marcus To.)

----------


## Assam

> I think a lot of our affection for one or the other has to do with how much we like certain storylines connected to Steph and Cass.


Actually, while I do really like Gates of Gotham, that's not where my affection for Higgens primarily stems from. That'd be his current _Mighty Morphin Power Rangers_ series. I know you aren't a fan of the franchise, but it is seriously one of the best books out there right now. Every main character, hero, villain or in-between, has been given a great amount of depth and/or development and the story is almost always engaging and well put together. Hell, he's done what DC and Marvel have never been able to do and gotten me excited for an _event_ comic. While Tynion at his very best may have issues and moments comparable or beyond Gates of Gotham in quality, I've seen nothing from him that touches this book. 




> But I'm still pretty mad about his "Babs miscarries Bruce's baby" plotline in Batman Beyond


Oh god, that was him? Ewwwww. 




> and even if you discount a lot of the flaws in his Nightwing n52 run, I don't think Nightwing: The New Order was a standout work.


Not a shocker, but I haven't read either of these. 




> Bennett just doesn't appeal to me at all (which isn't the same as a skill evaluation, but I'm really unimpressed with her writing quality in Batwoman and in Bombshells,


Well we can at least agree there.

----------


## millernumber1

> Actually, while I do really like Gates of Gotham, that's not where my affection for Higgens primarily stems from. That'd be his current _Mighty Morphin Power Rangers_ series. I know you aren't a fan of the franchise, but it is seriously one of the best books out there right now. Every main character, hero, villain or in-between, has been given a great amount of depth and/or development and the story is almost always engaging and well put together. Hell, he's done what DC and Marvel have never been able to do and gotten me excited for an _event_ comic. While Tynion at his very best may have issues and moments comparable or beyond Gates of Gotham in quality, I've seen nothing from him that touches this book.


Interesting. Yeah, I'm somewhat narrowly focused in my comics reading, and I don't generally check out things like TMNT or Power Rangers.

----------


## RedBird

pentapoda

Brain freeze

----------


## millernumber1

> pentapoda
> 
> Brain freeze


Really cute! And thanks for the source!

----------


## Caivu

> Just goes to a show that a mentor isn't everything considering the MASSIVE skill gaps between those three, at least IMO.





> I mean, I also think there's a pretty big difference between them, but I'm pretty sure we'd judge the skill levels differently.


And then you have me, who can't see any meaningful difference in quality between them (which I mean positively).

----------


## adrikito

> pentapoda
> 
> brain freeze


good image.

----------


## millernumber1

> And then you have me, who can't see any meaningful difference in quality between them (which I mean positively).


Yep! It's good to have different appreciations, otherwise what would we talk about?  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

Well anyway at the moment id DC so chooses to stay the course with the DCEU how would you like Tim and Stephanie to be introduced in any future films considering how it's evident Jason is dead Nightwing is doing his own thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well anyway at the moment id DC so chooses to stay the course with the DCEU how would you like Tim and Stephanie to be introduced in any future films considering how it's evident Jason is dead Nightwing is doing his own thing.


It's hard to say, since this is a 20-year Batman. Both Tim and Steph would be well into their adulthood, so an origin wouldn't make a ton of sense. But since we haven't seen any real indication of how the sidekick relationships work with Affleck's Batman, I don't know.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's hard to say, since this is a 20-year Batman. Both Tim and Steph would be well into their adulthood, so an origin wouldn't make a ton of sense. But since we haven't seen any real indication of how the sidekick relationships work with Affleck's Batman, I don't know.


How do you figure that Tim and Stephanie would be adults in the DCEU though wouldn't they be sixteen or something. And as far sidekick relationships work it was evident that Batman in DCEU valued Jason a lot.

----------


## millernumber1

> How do you figure that Tim and Stephanie would be adults in the DCEU though wouldn't they be sixteen or something. And as far sidekick relationships work it was evident that Batman in DCEU valued Jason a lot.


Well, Batman usually finds Robin after about a year. Even if he has Dick for 10 years, that means 10 more years, and Tim is usually only about 4-5 years younger than Dick. So that would make Dick around 30, and Tim and Steph around 25 (Steph is usually a  year older than Tim).

----------


## adrikito

Steph: I need more age... Damian can´t be the only who grows..

Screen Shot 138.jpg

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## millernumber1

> Steph: I need more age... Damian can´t be the only who grows..
> 
> Screen Shot 138.jpg


Haha, so true. This is going to turn into a Babs and Dick situation, where Babs started out 4-5 years older, and ends up the exact same age...

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## The Dying Detective

> Well, Batman usually finds Robin after about a year. Even if he has Dick for 10 years, that means 10 more years, and Tim is usually only about 4-5 years younger than Dick. So that would make Dick around 30, and Tim and Steph around 25 (Steph is usually a  year older than Tim).


I'm amazed that you even came up with this estimate despite comic book's broken nature with time. Well this is controversial but maybe if he's that old Tim if DC wants to Tim can just join Batman as Red Robin Stephanie can still be Spoiler. Just introduce them together as friends or boyfriend and girlfriend and that should make building up Tim and Stephanie a lot easier.

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## millernumber1

> I'm amazed that you even came up with this estimate despite comic book's broken nature with time. Well this is controversial but maybe if he's that old Tim if DC wants to Tim can just join Batman as Red Robin Stephanie can still be Spoiler. Just introduce them together as friends or boyfriend and girlfriend and that should make building up Tim and Stephanie a lot easier.


Well, I'm going off of things like Lonely Place of Dying, where Tim meets Dick the night his parents die. The way their drawn and written seemed like a good judge of the ages. And the old timeframe was that Dick was Robin for about 10 years (now I think it's about 5).

OOOOOR, you could have Steph meet Batman first! Hey, the did it in The Batman cartoon with Batgirl!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I'm going off of things like Lonely Place of Dying, where Tim meets Dick the night his parents die. The way their drawn and written seemed like a good judge of the ages. And the old timeframe was that Dick was Robin for about 10 years (now I think it's about 5).
> 
> OOOOOR, you could have Steph meet Batman first! Hey, the did it in The Batman cartoon with Batgirl!


And how old would Dick be when his parents first die though? If Dick was Robin for five years that might not be long enough for him to learn under Batman and develop adequately enough to be the leader he later became. Sure why not and Batman can can tell Stephanie to stop what she's doing before she gets herself killed though how would that lead Tim to joining. And I swear you could replace Barbara Gordon in The Batman cartoon with Stephanie and it might not make too much of a difference.

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## millernumber1

> And how old would Dick be when his parents first die though? If Dick was Robin for five years that might not be long enough for him to learn under Batman and develop adequately enough to be the leader he later became. Sure why not and Batman can can tell Stephanie to stop what she's doing before she gets herself killed though how would that lead Tim to joining. And I swear you could replace Barbara Gordon in The Batman cartoon with Stephanie and it might not make too much of a difference.


In pre-Flashpoint canon, I think they usually said he was between 8-10. In n52, he always seems drawn around 15-16 (which would fit the 21 year old age in the present day). As for "long enough"...it's Batman. They never actually deal with that stuff.  :Smile: 

Well. I personally think that Steph becoming a hero to stop her dad, and Babs becoming a hero for fun are differences. But they're both peppy and fun.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> In pre-Flashpoint canon, I think they usually said he was between 8-10. In n52, he always seems drawn around 15-16 (which would fit the 21 year old age in the present day). As for "long enough"...it's Batman. They never actually deal with that stuff. 
> 
> Well. I personally think that Steph becoming a hero to stop her dad, and Babs becoming a hero for fun are differences. But they're both peppy and fun.


Well Robin is supposed to be a kid sidekick so 8-10 sounds accurate. Funny thing is Jason seemed to be around 15-16 years old as well when he took up the Robin mantle in New 52. Yeah I suppose it's best to not think about how Dick can be a leader despite possibly having been trained for only five years. I know there are distinctions between Stephanie and Barbara's choices when they became heroines but I was just thinking about what it might look like if Stephanie was Batgirl in The Batman cartoon.

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## millernumber1

> Well Robin is supposed to be a kid sidekick so 8-10 sounds accurate. Funny thing is Jason seemed to be around 15-16 years old as well when he took up the Robin mantle in New 52. Yeah I suppose it's best to not think about how Dick can be a leader despite possibly having been trained for only five years. I know there are distinctions between Stephanie and Barbara's choices when they became heroines but I was just thinking about what it might look like if Stephanie was Batgirl in The Batman cartoon.


Except for Damian, I've never bought a 10-year old who can actually do anything against adult criminals and it not go beyond what I'm willing to swallow. I know I just said "It's Batman," but... no.

I think it could work - just sub Crystal for Gordon, and then have some plots about Cluemaster instead of Ivy.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Except for Damian, I've never bought a 10-year old who can actually do anything against adult criminals and it not go beyond what I'm willing to swallow. I know I just said "It's Batman," but... no.
> 
> I think it could work - just sub Crystal for Gordon, and then have some plots about Cluemaster instead of Ivy.


Well Batman is a hard taskmaster so even if Dick, Jason, and Tim hadn't gone through what Damian did they should more or less be able to. Except in The Batman Cluemaster is a fat man child I can't even imagine his wife finding him attractive at all in that one.

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## millernumber1

> Well Batman is a hard taskmaster so even if Dick, Jason, and Tim hadn't gone through what Damian did they should more or less be able to. Except in The Batman Cluemaster is a fat man child I can't even imagine his wife finding him attractive at all in that one.


Haha. I didn't know Cluemaster was in The Batman! I have only seen two seasons or so.

Batman does train pretty hard. But I just don't buy someone who isn't trained from birth to be able to do the things Robins do against adults. But eh. I guess "It's Batman" still applies. I just don't like it. I prefer my Robins to be 13 minimum.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Haha. I didn't know Cluemaster was in The Batman! I have only seen two seasons or so.
> 
> Batman does train pretty hard. But I just don't buy someone who isn't trained from birth to be able to do the things Robins do against adults. But eh. I guess "It's Batman" still applies. I just don't like it. I prefer my Robins to be 13 minimum.


Well Cluemaster appeared in season one of The Batman as man with Peter Pan syndrome who deluded thought the game show he used to compete on as a kid was rigged so he would lose so he sought revenge again the organisers and his last competitor. The thing I don't buy about Damian is how he is even able to drive as cruel as the League of Assassins are I doubted they would be stupid to teach a ten year old how to drive then again Damian has a degree in geology and could teach a course in it so yeah, "It's Batman" sort of applies to Damian as well since he is his son.

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## millernumber1

> Well Cluemaster appeared in season one of The Batman as man with Peter Pan syndrome who deluded thought the game show he used to compete on as a kid was rigged so he would lose so he sought revenge again the organisers and his last competitor. The thing I don't buy about Damian is how he is even able to drive as cruel as the League of Assassins are I doubted they would be stupid to teach a ten year old how to drive then again Damian has a degree in geology and could teach a course in it so yeah, "It's Batman" sort of applies to Damian as well since he is his son.


Damian...the sheer ridiculousness of what he's done really annoys me when they throw it in my face (like when he brags about his PHDs or invents a flying Batmobile).

That's why I like Steph as Robin - she works incredibly hard, but she doesn't have that kind of "I'm the Son of Batman and I can do LITERALLY ANYTHING." And why I do feel people on the "I hate hacker fu" stuff - because it makes everything too easy and doesn't require any work as a writer.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Damian...the sheer ridiculousness of what he's done really annoys me when they throw it in my face (like when he brags about his PHDs or invents a flying Batmobile).
> 
> That's why I like Steph as Robin - she works incredibly hard, but she doesn't have that kind of "I'm the Son of Batman and I can do LITERALLY ANYTHING." And why I do feel people on the "I hate hacker fu" stuff - because it makes everything too easy and doesn't require any work as a writer.


Sure for some the idea of what Damian can do can be annoying but for some like me it's sort of amusing to even hear that he can build a flying Batmobile or have multiple PHDs. At least under a competent writer Damian can actually struggle despite the enormity of what he can do. That's kind of the appeal behind Stephanie and Tim they are normal people so more people can relate to them more which Stephanie kind of retain while Tim has lost it though by the time of a Lonely Place of Living some of it has returned. You just have to make things more complex to challenge a smart character pit them against a puzzling mystery or even a smarter villain can do that to make up for sheer enormity of what they can do.

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## millernumber1

> Sure for some the idea of what Damian can do can be annoying but for some like me it's sort of amusing to even hear that he can build a flying Batmobile or have multiple PHDs. At least under a competent writer Damian can actually struggle despite the enormity of what he can do. That's kind of the appeal behind Stephanie and Tim they are normal people so more people can relate to them more which Stephanie kind of retain while Tim has lost it though by the time of a Lonely Place of Living some of it has returned. You just have to make things more complex to challenge a smart character pit them against a puzzling mystery or even a smarter villain can do that to make up for sheer enormity of what they can do.


It's amusing, but it's a gag, not a serious character thing. People with PhDs devote their life to knowing a titanic amount of information about something miniscule. Honestly, I'd have respected Morrison and Tomasi more if they'd said he had several different Engineering degrees and then had him build the flying Batmobile.

But yes, completely, power creep is real - so much so that Orlando writing Steph in Night of the Monster Men had to push her to the same kind of level as Damian. Which while I appreciate a writer giving Steph equality with her peers was really frustrating and OOC.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's amusing, but it's a gag, not a serious character thing. People with PhDs devote their life to knowing a titanic amount of information about something miniscule. Honestly, I'd have respected Morrison and Tomasi more if they'd said he had several different Engineering degrees and then had him build the flying Batmobile.
> 
> But yes, completely, power creep is real - so much so that Orlando writing Steph in Night of the Monster Men had to push her to the same kind of level as Damian. Which while I appreciate a writer giving Steph equality with her peers was really frustrating and OOC.


I think it might go without saying that Damian probably has several different engineering degrees because he built the flying Batmobile it might be a weird case of show don't tell. But I might be reaching. And what exactly did Orlando have Stephanie do in Night of the Monster Men?

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## millernumber1

> I think it might go without saying that Damian probably has several different engineering degrees because he built the flying Batmobile it might be a weird case of show don't tell. But I might be reaching. And what exactly did Orlando have Stephanie do in Night of the Monster Men?


He had her pull a BUNCH of technical and biological knowledge out of nowhere, and justified it by saying "I'm the Cluemaster's daughter".  Now...I know Tynion said that Cluemaster AND Crystal were both geniuses, but that seems kinda silly to me, since he's a third rate Riddler knockoff. Also, I really like it better when Batman and his family are closer to us. They train more, they may have some natural abilites we don't have, but I am not a fan of the "they are basically really superpowered with some kind of psychic ability."

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He had her pull a BUNCH of technical and biological knowledge out of nowhere, and justified it by saying "I'm the Cluemaster's daughter".  Now...I know Tynion said that Cluemaster AND Crystal were both geniuses, but that seems kinda silly to me, since he's a third rate Riddler knockoff. Also, I really like it better when Batman and his family are closer to us. They train more, they may have some natural abilites we don't have, but I am not a fan of the "they are basically really superpowered with some kind of psychic ability."


And Crystal is just a doctor too well I can say one positive thing about this change to Cluemaster at least if DC ever wants to bring him back he'll have a better status than he did back in Post-Crisis one that villains can respect hahaha! Well the problem with the Batfamily is is that most writers seem to assume they are only interesting only when they are the best at almost everything these days. It is a bit troubling especially in regards to Stephanie and Tim who never needed to be the best at everything to be appealing. I wonder whether Bryan Hill will be interested in using Stephanie for his run especially since he's evidently in love with Cassandra Cain. And it would be a crime to use Cassandra Cain and not sue her best friend.

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## millernumber1

> And Crystal is just a doctor too well I can say one positive thing about this change to Cluemaster at least if DC ever wants to bring him back he'll have a better status than he did back in Post-Crisis one that villains can respect hahaha! Well the problem with the Batfamily is is that most writers seem to assume they are only interesting only when they are the best at almost everything these days. It is a bit troubling especially in regards to Stephanie and Tim who never needed to be the best at everything to be appealing. I wonder whether Bryan Hill will be interested in using Stephanie for his run especially since he's evidently in love with Cassandra Cain. And it would be a crime to use Cassandra Cain and not sue her best friend.


I thought Crystal was a nurse, possibly a NP? I really should get on my reread of Steph's series - but part of me wants to wait until I can get the second volume digitally. So it feels new, even though I have everything as a hard copy.

I really dislike the power creep, because it gives fans of the superpowered characters like Damian just another reason to say, "Well, Steph and Tim don't belong in the Batfamily because they don't have POWERS!" And I sit here thinking...how did this become Batman fandom?

I don't think Hill can say anything about Steph, because Tynion's plans are still a secret. But he's a super awesome dude on twitter. I actually followed him, unusual for me on twitter, and it's been great. Tweets about professionalism and Batman fandom. Awesome stuff. I also checked out Michael Cray - really solid writing (Hill does a killer Warren Ellis impression), but terrible art. I wonder if that's because imprints don't necessarily have a lot of money to throw at artists.

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## The Dying Detective

> I thought Crystal was a nurse, possibly a NP? I really should get on my reread of Steph's series - but part of me wants to wait until I can get the second volume digitally. So it feels new, even though I have everything as a hard copy.
> 
> I really dislike the power creep, because it gives fans of the superpowered characters like Damian just another reason to say, "Well, Steph and Tim don't belong in the Batfamily because they don't have POWERS!" And I sit here thinking...how did this become Batman fandom?
> 
> I don't think Hill can say anything about Steph, because Tynion's plans are still a secret. But he's a super awesome dude on twitter. I actually followed him, unusual for me on twitter, and it's been great. Tweets about professionalism and Batman fandom. Awesome stuff. I also checked out Michael Cray - really solid writing (Hill does a killer Warren Ellis impression), but terrible art. I wonder if that's because imprints don't necessarily have a lot of money to throw at artists.


I could be mistaken the only stories involving Crystal Brown were in Stephanie's Batgirl title and she looked more like doctor to me but again I might be mistaken. Funny thing is that's what one man I know Shawn James says about Damian and Jason that they don't fit organically in the Batfamily. For Damian it's because he's skilled for a ten year old and is Batman's son whihc in his Shawn James's eyes makes him unrelatable. For Jason it's because he says it's because Jason was unstable and disobedient during his tenure as Robin while ignoring Dick who disobeyed plenty of times and nearly died because of it and when he became the Red Hood. Here's what he has to say about them but be warned Shawn James loves to commit miserable research, is oblivious to his own flaws in managing his own self-publishing business, and has a myopic perspective so take what he says with a grain of salt and be careful:

http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...much-hate.html

http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...ayed-dead.html

So until Tynion's run ends no one will know whether Hill will use Stephanie that's disappointing it's ounds like hill should be the one in control of Detective Comics and Batman because I disagree with Shawn James on many things but a more balanced Batman written by a true professional. Really because DC is putting out some good art with their DC Ink titles.

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## millernumber1

> I could be mistaken the only stories involving Crystal Brown were in Stephanie's Batgirl title and she looked more like doctor to me but again I might be mistaken. Funny thing is that's what one man I know Shawn James says about Damian and Jason that they don't fit organically in the Batfamily. For Damian it's because he's skilled for a ten year old and is Batman's son whihc in his Shawn James's eyes makes him unrelatable. For Jason it's because he says it's because Jason was unstable and disobedient during his tenure as Robin while ignoring Dick who disobeyed plenty of times and nearly died because of it and when he became the Red Hood. Here's what he has to say about them but be warned Shawn James loves to commit miserable research, is oblivious to his own flaws in managing his own self-publishing business, and has a myopic perspective so take what he says with a grain of salt and be careful:
> 
> http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...much-hate.html
> 
> http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...ayed-dead.html
> 
> So until Tynion's run ends no one will know whether Hill will use Stephanie that's disappointing it's ounds like hill should be the one in control of Detective Comics and Batman because I disagree with Shawn James on many things but a more balanced Batman written by a true professional. Really because DC is putting out some good art with their DC Ink titles.


No, Dixon uses her every now and then (mostly as a junkie mom), she was a big part of Steph's Showcase 95 #5 story, and she was really mad at Batman when Steph died in War Games.

Does this Shawn James fellow say anything about Steph?

I personally think Tynion is a true professional, just one who is struggling to deal with the issues caused by a twice-monthly schedule.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No, Dixon uses her every now and then (mostly as a junkie mom), she was a big part of Steph's Showcase 95 #5 story, and she was really mad at Batman when Steph died in War Games.
> 
> Does this Shawn James fellow say anything about Steph?
> 
> I personally think Tynion is a true professional, just one who is struggling to deal with the issues caused by a twice-monthly schedule.


What's a junkie mom? Well not much other than this plan he had where if he worked at DC Comics Stephanie would inherit the Batgirl mantle after Barbara chose to retire instead of being shot by the Joker. So what do you think of how Shawn James views Jason and Damian? Or rather how do you think of his way thinking really. But I thought some felt that Tynion was not doing too well particularly with Tim because he still had yet to write him more properly?

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## millernumber1

> What's a junkie mom? Well not much other than this plan he had where if he worked at DC Comics Stephanie would inherit the Batgirl mantle after Barbara chose to retire instead of being shot by the Joker. So what do you think of how Shawn James views Jason and Damian? Or rather how do you think of his way thinking really. But I thought some felt that Tynion was not doing too well particularly with Tim because he still had yet to write him more properly?


Crystal was addicted to painkilling pills when Steph first became Spoiler. She apparently got clean sometime around when Steph became Robin, and thankfully stayed clean even after she died and came back (since she was a positive force in Steph's life during her Batgirl run).

I think James' essays on Jason and Damian are pretty standard from a non-fan of the two. I personally like all the Robins okay, and don't feel like removing any of the Batfamily members (largely because Steph and Cass are ALWAYS first on the chopping block). I never accept any of the arguments that the Batfamily is too big and needs trimming - the only argument I'd really accept would be if they get rid of EVERYONE except Dick and Babs. And I don't think anyone really wants that.

The argument about Tynion used to be "He loves Tim too much, he never has flaws." And now that Tim has flaws, it seems to be "Tynion blames trauma for Tim's flaws, and he is deliberately writing everyone so that no one likes these characters."

Which is just bad faith argumentation. I think Tynion is writing everyone to the best of his ability, and some things have gotten off track. But on the whole, I think the story is still really good.

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## Harpsikord

Crystal was a nurse. This was referenced sometimes in the 90's, though yeah, most of her characterization was as a mom with a drug problem and then as a recovering addict. I think we saw her in scrubs once or twice.

In Batgirl she dresses more like a doctor but I'd argue that her being a Nurse Practitioner at this point makes sense. Or perhaps the head of nursing at West Mercy?

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## millernumber1

> Crystal was a nurse. This was referenced sometimes in the 90's, though yeah, most of her characterization was as a mom with a drug problem and then as a recovering addict. I think we saw her in scrubs once or twice.
> 
> In Batgirl she dresses more like a doctor but I'd argue that her being a Nurse Practitioner at this point makes sense. Or perhaps the head of nursing at West Mercy?


Yeah, either NP or head of nursing would make sense - she does seem to be pretty senior. But in my reread I'll have to check and see if someone calls her "Dr. Brown." I don't think so, but I'm not certain.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Crystal was addicted to painkilling pills when Steph first became Spoiler. She apparently got clean sometime around when Steph became Robin, and thankfully stayed clean even after she died and came back (since she was a positive force in Steph's life during her Batgirl run).
> 
> I think James' essays on Jason and Damian are pretty standard from a non-fan of the two. I personally like all the Robins okay, and don't feel like removing any of the Batfamily members (largely because Steph and Cass are ALWAYS first on the chopping block). I never accept any of the arguments that the Batfamily is too big and needs trimming - the only argument I'd really accept would be if they get rid of EVERYONE except Dick and Babs. And I don't think anyone really wants that.
> 
> The argument about Tynion used to be "He loves Tim too much, he never has flaws." And now that Tim has flaws, it seems to be "Tynion blames trauma for Tim's flaws, and he is deliberately writing everyone so that no one likes these characters."
> 
> Which is just bad faith argumentation. I think Tynion is writing everyone to the best of his ability, and some things have gotten off track. But on the whole, I think the story is still really good.


Well that's one thing TV Tropes and Idioms messed up about Stephanie background they got the working class background right but they never mentioned her having a broken home where her mother was a drug addict. But it was good Crystal recovered and stayed strong even though Stephanie apparently died. Because there might have been nothing for Stephanie to return to when she came back. 

Well James' essay on Damian didn't seem well thought out since he tried to bring in business perspective on Damian but he never seems to pause and wonder how trash like Twilight sells still yeah though ironically Shawn James came up with this plan to do a hard reboot on the DC Universe and start from scratch literally so you could see only Dick and Barbara being around. With how he complained on another article about how due to so many vigilantes running around Gotham should be the safest city in the world and Batman is no longer special because most of them including Stephanie and Tim can more or less do the same things Batman does. The future the Batfamily might not be around particularly Jason and Damian since he's got so much hatred for them but they do generate large amounts of revenue which DC will need so they could return if he caves into the pressure. 

Well that shows how fickle fans can be this was not unexpected honestly if fans had more control the issues surrounding Tynion's use of Tim might not have issues and I do hope Tim can get into Hill's run as well. It might get worse thanks to Christopher Priest who may replace Tim with Jason as the Robin he who was jealous of Damian.

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## millernumber1

> Well that's one thing TV Tropes and Idioms messed up about Stephanie background they got the working class background right but they never mentioned her having a broken home where her mother was a drug addict. But it was good Crystal recovered and stayed strong even though Stephanie apparently died. Because there might have been nothing for Stephanie to return to when she came back. 
> 
> Well James' essay on Damian didn't seem well thought out since he tried to bring in business perspective on Damian but he never seems to pause and wonder how trash like Twilight sells still yeah though ironically Shawn James came up with this plan to do a hard reboot on the DC Universe and start from scratch literally so you could see only Dick and Barbara being around. With how he complained on another article about how due to so many vigilantes running around Gotham should be the safest city in the world and Batman is no longer special because most of them including Stephanie and Tim can more or less do the same things Batman does. The future the Batfamily might not be around particularly Jason and Damian since he's got so much hatred for them but they do generate large amounts of revenue which DC will need so they could return if he caves into the pressure. 
> 
> Well that shows how fickle fans can be this was not unexpected honestly if fans had more control the issues surrounding Tynion's use of Tim might not have issues and I do hope Tim can get into Hill's run as well. It might get worse thanks to Christopher Priest who may replace Tim with Jason as the Robin he who was jealous of Damian.


Huh, I'll have to remember that and try to fix the TV Tropes article for Steph.  :Smile: 

I've said this elsewhere, but the idea that just because Batman has 20 sidekicks doesn't mean the most corrupt city of 5 million people would be safer. That's just silly talk.

I think it just shows that fans are easily swayed into repeating memes instead of doing critical reading. Though I seriously doubt that Priest is going to do that with Jason. But we'll have to see. I'm really excited about what Priest is doing with Deathstroke vs. Batman. I just wish Steph were likely to show up.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Huh, I'll have to remember that and try to fix the TV Tropes article for Steph. 
> 
> I've said this elsewhere, but the idea that just because Batman has 20 sidekicks doesn't mean the most corrupt city of 5 million people would be safer. That's just silly talk.
> 
> I think it just shows that fans are easily swayed into repeating memes instead of doing critical reading. Though I seriously doubt that Priest is going to do that with Jason. But we'll have to see. I'm really excited about what Priest is doing with Deathstroke vs. Batman. I just wish Steph were likely to show up.


I hope you can TV Tropes is a stubborn place where any change you make gets changed back as stated by user Dark Tzitizime who tried to change some stuff about Jason Todd there. You'll need to run a discussion on it. 

If it was on that discussion where that I created about how Gotham should be the safest place Shawn James' complaint about the Batfamily and the existence of characters with similar abilities like Supergirl and She-Hulk was the inspiration for that discussion. Now unless Batman decides to wipe out every single citizen of Gotham then it will finally be safe. 

Well the common man are generally simple folk and that goes for comic book readers so critical thinking is often lacking when some fans are children in adult bodies. I can't imagine how well received Tim being jealous of  Damian was received back then. I mena Priest might use Jason instead of Tim because he doesn't like characters who white bread or safe. Especially when fans did not react well to what he did to Wally West I which left him with the impression fans don't want their favourites to struggle. What do you know about what Priest is up to with Deathstroke vs Batman? And I hope Damian will still remain Bruce's biological son. But what sort of role do you think Stephanie could have in the story though?

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope you can TV Tropes is a stubborn place where any change you make gets changed back as stated by user Dark Tzitizime who tried to change some stuff about Jason Todd there. You'll need to run a discussion on it. 
> 
> If it was on that discussion where that I created about how Gotham should be the safest place Shawn James' complaint about the Batfamily and the existence of characters with similar abilities like Supergirl and She-Hulk was the inspiration for that discussion. Now unless Batman decides to wipe out every single citizen of Gotham then it will finally be safe. 
> 
> Well the common man are generally simple folk and that goes for comic book readers so critical thinking is often lacking when some fans are children in adult bodies. I can't imagine how well received Tim being jealous of  Damian was received back then. I mena Priest might use Jason instead of Tim because he doesn't like characters who white bread or safe. Especially when fans did not react well to what he did to Wally West I which left him with the impression fans don't want their favourites to struggle. What do you know about what Priest is up to with Deathstroke vs Batman? And I hope Damian will still remain Bruce's biological son. But what sort of role do you think Stephanie could have in the story though?


I suppose you're right about fans. I know sometimes I just want to read a fun comic and not get too deep in the weeds. I got into a MASSIVE argument about Tim and Steph in the current run of Tec on tumblr, and I just got really tired of it (largely because there was so much freaking interpolated material from personality tests. I can't argue with stuff you've made up on your own.)

We shall have to see how Batman vs. Deathstroke plays out. Last time Slade visited Gotham, he only used Damian and Bruce and Rose and Slade. Now...Slade has a huge supporting cast, though most of them are unavailable or seem to have their plotlines tied up in preparation for this new one. But I think there's going to be a lot of plotlines from the last two years showing up...

I think there's zero chance that Damian won't be Bruce's son. But I would LOVE it if this forced the little nasty person to think about the fact that he's not the only son (or daughter) Bruce has, and his blood doesn't entitle him to any more than Bruce's adoption of Dick, Jason, Tim, and Cass have.

Steph could be a perky annoyance to Slade. Or Batman. Or both! I think she could be a less damaged version of the role Terra filled in the Defiance arc - snarky, perky, and full of her own mischief. (I don't think Priest will use Steph at all. But I can hope!)

----------


## Assam

> I suppose you're right about fans. I know sometimes I just want to read a fun comic and not get too deep in the weeds. I got into a MASSIVE argument about Tim and Steph in the current run of Tec on tumblr, and I just got really tired of it (largely because there was so much freaking interpolated material from personality tests. I can't argue with stuff you've made up on your own.)


I've been following that madness. Quite fun. 




> We shall have to see how Batman vs. Deathstroke plays out. Last time Slade visited Gotham, he only used Damian and Bruce and Rose and Slade. Now...Slade has a huge supporting cast, though most of them are unavailable or seem to have their plotlines tied up in preparation for this new one. But I think there's going to be a lot of plotlines from the last two years showing up...


I don't know the details, but based on what I've heard people saying, it seems likely to me that this arc will be set _before_ the most recent arc of his series.

----------


## millernumber1

> I've been following that madness. Quite fun. 
> 
> I don't know the details, but based on what I've heard people saying, it seems likely to me that this arc will be set _before_ the most recent arc of his series.


I'm really hoping we're done. I tried to shut down all the personality test stuff, and I haven't been reblogged in a day, so...I was just so exhausted at the end of it. I'm all for criticizing writers for what they've actually done, but I'm not in favor of just piling on with memes that are stupid (like "Scott Snyder hates Alfred because terrible stuff keeps happening to Alfred..." that's silly.)

That seems wrong. I mean, I don't know anything except the official releases, but Priest said on his website that it's something he's been planning for two years. Which doesn't preclude a prequel, but feels more like something you'd say for a story that keeps moving forward. And the way Priest left Slade in Arkham seems to be a perfect place for Batman to start his campaign...

Now if this is a flashback to the time of Batman and Son or Batman Inc or even Batman and Robin, that could be interesting (even if I generally prefer stories to move forward rather than do prequels).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I suppose you're right about fans. I know sometimes I just want to read a fun comic and not get too deep in the weeds. I got into a MASSIVE argument about Tim and Steph in the current run of Tec on tumblr, and I just got really tired of it (largely because there was so much freaking interpolated material from personality tests. I can't argue with stuff you've made up on your own.)
> 
> We shall have to see how Batman vs. Deathstroke plays out. Last time Slade visited Gotham, he only used Damian and Bruce and Rose and Slade. Now...Slade has a huge supporting cast, though most of them are unavailable or seem to have their plotlines tied up in preparation for this new one. But I think there's going to be a lot of plotlines from the last two years showing up...
> 
> I think there's zero chance that Damian won't be Bruce's son. But I would LOVE it if this forced the little nasty person to think about the fact that he's not the only son (or daughter) Bruce has, and his blood doesn't entitle him to any more than Bruce's adoption of Dick, Jason, Tim, and Cass have.
> 
> Steph could be a perky annoyance to Slade. Or Batman. Or both! I think she could be a less damaged version of the role Terra filled in the Defiance arc - snarky, perky, and full of her own mischief. (I don't think Priest will use Steph at all. But I can hope!)


Well I've never really argued with fans before except for one guy over a show that was a new kiddy take of an old one we both liked but I wanted the mature vibe to return and he thought it had merit I didn't because the conflicts were weak to me and I finally gave up. Overall it was just all a matter of opinion and taste so nothing that crazy. But I have a good idea of how stubborn fans can be from Shawn James I commented on his Black Panther review and he was oblivious that he made so many videos and articles lambasting the film and he still expected people to believe he was going to judge the film objectively he never replied to me after I answered but it's for the best.

The other tricky part of using Slade is how he is currently in Arkham Asylum but a man of his skill should be able to break out. And with how Damian is the lead of Arkahm Asylum 2 I think DC won't take that away because if Damian truly was Slade's son then the story would not need six issues. Humbling Damian is something I don't think has been explored much and I am all for it but I hope it won't lead to Damian becoming as uninteresting as X-23 has become. X-23 loss all her problems and she became the most boring character in her own solo book. Maybe just keep Damian's arrogance as a quality that he tries to reign in but it surfaces from time to time.

Well compared to Tim I don't think Stephanie is a safe character so she might be a character Priest will like because she has more interesting background and more flaws than Tim or Dick. So he could use her.

----------


## millernumber1

> The other tricky part of using Slade is how he is currently in Arkham Asylum but a man of his skill should be able to break out. And with how Damian is the lead of Arkahm Asylum 2 I think DC won't take that away because if Damian truly was Slade's son then the story would not need six issues. Humbling Damian is something I don't think has been explored much and I am all for it but I hope it won't lead to Damian becoming as uninteresting as X-23 has become. X-23 loss all her problems and she became the most boring character in her own solo book. Maybe just keep Damian's arrogance as a quality that he tries to reign in but it surfaces from time to time.
> 
> Well compared to Tim I don't think Stephanie is a safe character so she might be a character Priest will like because she has more interesting background and more flaws than Tim or Dick. So he could use her.


Arkham is the easiest place to escape from! Every villain has done it (except maybe Cluemaster.)  :Smile: 

(I'm kinda weird about X-23 - I really dislike her X-23 comics, but I liked the second and third arcs of her Wolverine series. But that series has really devolved, sadly. I even liked Gabby as a character, but the whole Honey Badger thing is a huge turnoff.)

Priest will definitely have Damian at his most arrogant, and that's a reason I hope someone like Steph, Babs, or Dick will be involved, since it means that someone will puncture that arrogance with some moral superiority (as opposed to Slade, who has none, or Batman, who refuses to puncture it because he takes it too seriously.)

----------


## Assam

> But that series has really devolved, sadly.


Couldn't disagree more. While I really liked the first several arcs, the book has just been on fire for me since the Immune storyline, Orphans of X probably being the series highlight. 




> I even liked Gabby as a character, but the whole Honey Badger thing is a huge turnoff.)


BOOOOOOOOOOO!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Couldn't disagree more. While I really liked the first several arcs, the book has just been on fire for me since the Immune storyline, Orphans of X probably being the series highlight. 
> 
> BOOOOOOOOOOO!


Sorry. I like what I like, and dislike what I dislike. I was reading it with a lot of enjoyment, but after Enemy of the State II, I just couldn't go with it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Arkham is the easiest place to escape from! Every villain has done it (except maybe Cluemaster.) 
> 
> (I'm kinda weird about X-23 - I really dislike her X-23 comics, but I liked the second and third arcs of her Wolverine series. But that series has really devolved, sadly. I even liked Gabby as a character, but the whole Honey Badger thing is a huge turnoff.)
> 
> Priest will definitely have Damian at his most arrogant, and that's a reason I hope someone like Steph, Babs, or Dick will be involved, since it means that someone will puncture that arrogance with some moral superiority (as opposed to Slade, who has none, or Batman, who refuses to puncture it because he takes it too seriously.)


Yet Arkham has been shown to have been updated yet all they did with Slade was throw him into a padded cell, weird. Well I'm the exact reverse when it comes to X-23 I favoured her old comics mainly her tenure on the New X-Men which I wished had been left alone. In what way do you think X-23's Wolverine comic has devolved?

Well other Dick I think Stephanie was the other Batfamily member who made the biggest impression on Damian because she didn't have the same motives as the rest did. So if Priest will use her then it's fair shot to get back the old Stephanie. I know I would like to see Damian and Stephanie interact again like they did on her solo series.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yet Arkham has been shown to have been updated yet all they did with Slade was throw him into a padded cell, weird. Well I'm the exact reverse when it comes to X-23 I favoured her old comics mainly her tenure on the New X-Men which I wished had been left alone. In what way do you think X-23's Wolverine comic has devolved?
> 
> Well other Dick I think Stephanie was the other Batfamily member who made the biggest impression on Damian because she didn't have the same motives as the rest did. So if Priest will use her then it's fair shot to get back the old Stephanie. I know I would like to see Damian and Stephanie interact again like they did on her solo series.


I don't like cosmic storylines that much (which is funny, because I also hate it when they cheat in the movies and make a cosmic story mundane, like Dark Phoenix and Venom), so that didn't help. And I hate the entire attitude of "Honey Badger" and the memes surrounding it. So it's a combination of a concept I'm not enjoying and an attitude that I think is annoying. Eh. (Also, I miss Takara's art a lot.  :Smile:  )

Arkham is so inconsistent. I think they put Slade there because he's hearing voices right now. So...we'll see (and I'm really excited about it!)

I agree that Dick and Steph are the ones who I think have the best impact on Damian. (Though I also am a big fan of Maya Ducard.) But since that was in pre-Flashpoint continuity, I really doubt Priest will do it.

But you're absolutely right - seeing Damian and Steph interact with a strong writer is EXACTLY what I would want.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't like cosmic storylines that much (which is funny, because I also hate it when they cheat in the movies and make a cosmic story mundane, like Dark Phoenix and Venom), so that didn't help. And I hate the entire attitude of "Honey Badger" and the memes surrounding it. So it's a combination of a concept I'm not enjoying and an attitude that I think is annoying. Eh. (Also, I miss Takara's art a lot.  )
> 
> Arkham is so inconsistent. I think they put Slade there because he's hearing voices right now. So...we'll see (and I'm really excited about it!)
> 
> I agree that Dick and Steph are the ones who I think have the best impact on Damian. (Though I also am a big fan of Maya Ducard.) But since that was in pre-Flashpoint continuity, I really doubt Priest will do it.
> 
> But you're absolutely right - seeing Damian and Steph interact with a strong writer is EXACTLY what I would want.


The cosmic story in All New Wolverine started meh for me then got boring in the end and Orphans of X didn't help make things more interesting since the villains were meh as well. I bet the writer thought Honey Badger would be a cute name for Gabby but i can't wrap my head around it either. i bet if it was Batman who put Slade in Arkham he'd be given special treatment. Well there is an alternative as Damian goes through an identity crisis of his own Stephanie could be essential in helping him regain his self-worth well her or Maya Ducard depending on Priest's mood.

----------


## millernumber1

> The cosmic story in All New Wolverine started meh for me then got boring in the end and Orphans of X didn't help make things more interesting since the villains were meh as well. I bet the writer thought Honey Badger would be a cute name for Gabby but i can't wrap my head around it either. i bet if it was Batman who put Slade in Arkham he'd be given special treatment. Well there is an alternative as Damian goes through an identity crisis of his own Stephanie could be essential in helping him regain his self-worth well her or Maya Ducard depending on Priest's mood.


I'm sure why Slade is specifically in Arkham instead of Blackgate or the Slab or Belle Reve will be explained. But I don't think it's Batman...but plot will happen!

I am really excited to see what Priest has planned for Damian. Of course, I'd love for it to be a friendship with Steph, but I don't see that in the cards.

Honestly, I'm pretty concerned about where Steph is going to end up right now. I really wish she'd get another A-list creator (I think Tynion is pretty A-list, as his performance on Tec, keeping sales really steady, shows), but I'm worried they're either stuffing her in limbo or giving her to a B-lister.

----------


## The Whovian

Just a reminder for everyone who is buying trades--the Batgirl v2 trade starring Steph is out now and I just bought my copy. I've been waiting to get this second volume so I can re-read the whole run again.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm sure why Slade is specifically in Arkham instead of Blackgate or the Slab or Belle Reve will be explained. But I don't think it's Batman...but plot will happen!
> 
> I am really excited to see what Priest has planned for Damian. Of course, I'd love for it to be a friendship with Steph, but I don't see that in the cards.
> 
> Honestly, I'm pretty concerned about where Steph is going to end up right now. I really wish she'd get another A-list creator (I think Tynion is pretty A-list, as his performance on Tec, keeping sales really steady, shows), but I'm worried they're either stuffing her in limbo or giving her to a B-lister.


And that plot will definitely happen once Slade breaks out. No given how Maya is closest to Damian I doubt Priest will use Stephanie but rebuilding their Pre-52 friendship might be a good way to fill out the six issues in between Deathstroke and Batman fighting. Because admittedly the premise behind Deathstroke and Batman coming to blows over Damian sounds kind of weak. Well there are two options I see that could be available one DC puts Stephanie on the Outsiders that obviously going to spin out of Bryan Hill's run on Detective or two Stephanie could wind up on Joshua Williamson's new title that will come out of No Justice. The Outsiders one sounds more plausible though.

----------


## millernumber1

> Just a reminder for everyone who is buying trades--the Batgirl v2 trade starring Steph is out now and I just bought my copy. I've been waiting to get this second volume so I can re-read the whole run again.


Nice! I saw it in my comic store last week, but since I already have the hard copies, I'm waiting till this Wednesday to pick it up digitally. It's so pretty! And I'm so pleased they included the Road Home and Batman Inc issues. It really feels like a complete collection with respect for Steph as a character.




> And that plot will definitely happen once Slade breaks out. No given how Maya is closest to Damian I doubt Priest will use Stephanie but rebuilding their Pre-52 friendship might be a good way to fill out the six issues in between Deathstroke and Batman fighting. Because admittedly the premise behind Deathstroke and Batman coming to blows over Damian sounds kind of weak. Well there are two options I see that could be available one DC puts Stephanie on the Outsiders that obviously going to spin out of Bryan Hill's run on Detective or two Stephanie could wind up on Joshua Williamson's new title that will come out of No Justice. The Outsiders one sounds more plausible though.


We'll just have to wait and see...very excitedly!  I don't think it's weak at all - Slade's whole series has been about him as a father, so I think Batman as father will be an excellent source of drama.

I can see Steph in many places - still on Tec, just not announced, in whatever book the Bensons are getting, or on a team book like Young Justice or Teen Titans coming out of NOPE JUSTICE. I have no idea which is most plausible (or if we're in for none of them.  :Frown:  )

----------


## The Whovian

> Nice! I saw it in my comic store last week, but since I already have the hard copies, I'm waiting till this Wednesday to pick it up digitally. It's so pretty! And I'm so pleased they included the Road Home and Batman Inc issues. It really feels like a complete collection with respect for Steph as a character.


Same here. I've been switching over to trades, collected editions and soon to be binding sets.

----------


## millernumber1

> Same here. I've been switching over to trades, collected editions and soon to be binding sets.


I'm not super into the binding scene - seems too tricky for me. But I have jumped onboard the digital train for most of my buys - bought a large kindle just to read comics one.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> We'll just have to wait and see...very excitedly!  I don't think it's weak at all - Slade's whole series has been about him as a father, so I think Batman as father will be an excellent source of drama.
> 
> I can see Steph in many places - still on Tec, just not announced, in whatever book the Bensons are getting, or on a team book like Young Justice or Teen Titans coming out of NOPE JUSTICE. I have no idea which is most plausible (or if we're in for none of them.  )


For me well the premise itself is very much the kind that you would see in a cliche soap opera though I trust Priest to do something amazing with it the thing I do not like about what he has been doing what I see in his Justice League run where he is trying to put too much rationality in it to the point it feels like the characters are doing more talking than action. Though when you put it that way i suppose a clash of fathers could be interesting.

The only reason I say Detective Comics is because Gotham is Stephanie's home and it will always will be her home so it's the most obvious choice the sometimes most obvious answer is not always the correct one. But the solicitations did say Batman's proteges either it's referring to Duke and Cass alone or it also means Tim and Stephanie and witht he fact Tynion's plans remain a secret it seems sort of obvious they would do it or transfer Stephanie over to Titans where they are undergoing a roster change.

----------


## millernumber1

> For me well the premise itself is very much the kind that you would see in a cliche soap opera though I trust Priest to do something amazing with it the thing I do not like about what he has been doing what I see in his Justice League run where he is trying to put too much rationality in it to the point it feels like the characters are doing more talking than action. Though when you put it that way i suppose a clash of fathers could be interesting.
> 
> The only reason I say Detective Comics is because Gotham is Stephanie's home and it will always will be her home so it's the most obvious choice the sometimes most obvious answer is not always the correct one. But the solicitations did say Batman's proteges either it's referring to Duke and Cass alone or it also means Tim and Stephanie and witht he fact Tynion's plans remain a secret it seems sort of obvious they would do it or transfer Stephanie over to Titans where they are undergoing a roster change.


I mean, all superhero stuff usually boils down to some soap opera stuff. Priest's Justice League does tend to be talky, but he also makes sure to have at least one awesome action sequence per issue.

Outside of her "death" and recovery in Africa, Steph hasn't left Gotham that I know of. Though technically she lived in the suburbs across the river, from what I can tell (since she didn't seem to be affected by No Man's Land during her pregnancy).

I hope very much that Duke and Cass are not alone, but until we find out what Tynion plans for the ending, I just don't think we can figure out what's happening to Steph and Tim (I'm pretty much resigned to Luke and Jean-Paul going into limbo).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, all superhero stuff usually boils down to some soap opera stuff. Priest's Justice League does tend to be talky, but he also makes sure to have at least one awesome action sequence per issue.
> 
> Outside of her "death" and recovery in Africa, Steph hasn't left Gotham that I know of. Though technically she lived in the suburbs across the river, from what I can tell (since she didn't seem to be affected by No Man's Land during her pregnancy).
> 
> I hope very much that Duke and Cass are not alone, but until we find out what Tynion plans for the ending, I just don't think we can figure out what's happening to Steph and Tim (I'm pretty much resigned to Luke and Jean-Paul going into limbo).


True just as long as it well done soap opera stuff. While I can praise Priest's story for being able to know what kind of story it wants to tell there are moments when his attempts to put things in a realistic context made me laugh mainly the time where he said Wonder Woman's costume is a habit. And I laugh every time I think about it.

Well that's pretty much what I said unless Stephanie wants to go on another trip to Africa at the end of Tynion's run. According to Assam Tynion has two new project coming in the summer theoretically those projects could involve Tim and Stephanie and it's funny that he's the only No Justice writer who hasn't said much about what he's up to it must be something special.

----------


## millernumber1

> True just as long as it well done soap opera stuff. While I can praise Priest's story for being able to know what kind of story it wants to tell there are moments when his attempts to put things in a realistic context made me laugh mainly the time where he said Wonder Woman's costume is a habit. And I laugh every time I think about it.
> 
> Well that's pretty much what I said unless Stephanie wants to go on another trip to Africa at the end of Tynion's run. According to Assam Tynion has two new project coming in the summer theoretically those projects could involve Tim and Stephanie and it's funny that he's the only No Justice writer who hasn't said much about what he's up to it must be something special.


Well, we have promises of announcements for the next few weeks. We've already gotten the Tec announcement and the June solicits...more to come, hopefully...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, we have promises of announcements for the next few weeks. We've already gotten the Tec announcement and the June solicits...more to come, hopefully...


I believe there should also be the WonderCon announcements too.

----------


## Rac7d*

would they let steph get pregnant again?

----------


## millernumber1

> would they let steph get pregnant again?


That seems really unlikely. I kind of hope not.

----------


## millernumber1

My collection is complete! Here's a picture of my hard copy Steph Batgirl collection along with my digital purchase of the new editions!

Steph hard copies.jpg

Steph digital.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> My collection is complete! Here's a picture of my hard copy Steph Batgirl collection along with my digital purchase of the new editions!
> 
> Steph hard copies.jpg
> 
> Steph digital.jpg


Sweet! Congrats millernumber! Time to get reading!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Sweet! Congrats millernumber! Time to get reading!


I do need to reread - problem is, I'm also in the middle of my X-Wing: Rogue Squadron reread from the crazy Marvel $.99 sale.  :Smile:  So...hopefully I'll get to it tonight.

(Also, just a note - I always check and see if Amazon or Comixology is cheaper, since you can read both in the Comixology app - Comixology is currently $17, while Amazon is 24, so right now, best bet is to go for the Comixology version right now! I'm sure we'll get a sale sometime - the first volume was on a nice sale for 6 or 7 dollars during the Women's Day sale.)

----------


## adrikito

> my collection is complete! Here's a picture of my hard copy steph batgirl collection along with my digital purchase of the new editions!
> 
> Steph hard copies.jpg
> 
> Steph digital.jpg


congratulations..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My collection is complete! Here's a picture of my hard copy Steph Batgirl collection along with my digital purchase of the new editions!
> 
> Steph hard copies.jpg
> 
> Steph digital.jpg


Nice to hear that enjoy!

----------


## WonderScott

I love Stephanie and I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed, but I'd really like to see her play up her whole "spoiler" angle in Gotham. 

It's be ridiculously fun to read a title where Stephanie takes on spoiling the crimes of lower-level Batvillains. One, it gives Stephanie a chance to shine and two, it'd give a creator the chance to shine a spotlight on characters that rarely get much attention. 

Kite-Man was revamped in the Jokes & Riddles storyline, so I'm kind of thinking along those lines. Make the villains less of a joke in some cases, and it shows a parallel of Stephanie rising as a hero, while the foes are trying to rise as villains. There could be some surprises in that premise with the right villainously creative writer behind it. 

I'd love to see Stephanie up against Calendar Girl, Roxy Rocket, Condiment King, Gorilla Gang, Signalman, Mr. Polka-Dot, King-Tut, Globe, etc. Make them strange and somewhat vile, with some surprises as to how they're attempting to become "big guns" in Gotham.

----------


## millernumber1

> I love Stephanie and I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed, but I'd really like to see her play up her whole "spoiler" angle in Gotham. 
> 
> It's be ridiculously fun to read a title where Stephanie takes on spoiling the crimes of lower-level Batvillains. One, it gives Stephanie a chance to shine and two, it'd give a creator the chance to shine a spotlight on characters that rarely get much attention. 
> 
> Kite-Man was revamped in the Jokes & Riddles storyline, so I'm kind of thinking along those lines. Make the villains less of a joke in some cases, and it shows a parallel of Stephanie rising as a hero, while the foes are trying to rise as villains. There could be some surprises in that premise with the right villainously creative writer behind it. 
> 
> I'd love to see Stephanie up against Calendar Girl, Roxy Rocket, Condiment King, Gorilla Gang, Signalman, Mr. Polka-Dot, King-Tut, Globe, etc. Make them strange and somewhat vile, with some surprises as to how they're attempting to become "big guns" in Gotham.


Welcome! I've been here for a while, and I still haven't read the WHOLE thread. It's a lot of pages.  :Smile:  Page 200 here we come!

I think we got a significant chunk of Spoiler stuff in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal. But we'd have to have more street-level stuff, and a stronger status quo to really get it at this point.

As for Steph vs. Roxy...good times, good times (Batgirl: Stephanie Brown vol. 1 on sale now!)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I love Stephanie and I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed, but I'd really like to see her play up her whole "spoiler" angle in Gotham. 
> 
> It's be ridiculously fun to read a title where Stephanie takes on spoiling the crimes of lower-level Batvillains. One, it gives Stephanie a chance to shine and two, it'd give a creator the chance to shine a spotlight on characters that rarely get much attention. 
> 
> Kite-Man was revamped in the Jokes & Riddles storyline, so I'm kind of thinking along those lines. Make the villains less of a joke in some cases, and it shows a parallel of Stephanie rising as a hero, while the foes are trying to rise as villains. There could be some surprises in that premise with the right villainously creative writer behind it. 
> 
> I'd love to see Stephanie up against Calendar Girl, Roxy Rocket, Condiment King, Gorilla Gang, Signalman, Mr. Polka-Dot, King-Tut, Globe, etc. Make them strange and somewhat vile, with some surprises as to how they're attempting to become "big guns" in Gotham.


That should suit Stephanie's character very nicely it's too bad to pitch it to DC you need a sledgehammer to get pass the wall surrounding the comic book industry. And it's Calendar Man not Calendar Girl she's from the DCAU. And welcome to the thread

----------


## millernumber1

> That should suit Stephanie's character very nicely it's too bad to pitch it to DC you need a sledgehammer to get pass the wall surrounding the comic book industry. And it's Calendar Man not Calendar Girl she's from the DCAU. And welcome to the thread


Plenty of characters come from the DCAU. Like Roxy!  :Smile: 

I bet you lots of fake money that BQM would have brought Calendar Girl if he'd continued.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Plenty of characters come from the DCAU. Like Roxy! 
> 
> I bet you lots of fake money that BQM would have brought Calendar Girl if he'd continued.


Yeah but how are you going to explain Calendar Girl's existence in the place of Calendar Man? Why is Bryan Q Miller Calendar Girl's creator?

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah but how are you going to explain Calendar Girl's existence in the place of Calendar Man? Why is Bryan Q Miller Calendar Girl's creator?


Why do you have to explain it? Just give her a quick origin or something, and you're good.  :Smile: 

BQM isn't her creator, he just loved using DCAU stuff in the Batgirl series. Like Roxy!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Why do you have to explain it? Just give her a quick origin or something, and you're good. 
> 
> BQM isn't her creator, he just loved using DCAU stuff in the Batgirl series. Like Roxy!


That's fair though I did not appreciate how he used Livewire the only part of Stephanie's costumes that was not covered her insulated costume in was her eyes and mouth which should have led to her to being fried. The fight could have been dragged out a little longer and have Stephanie defeat her through wit.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's fair though I did not appreciate how he used Livewire the only part of Stephanie's costumes that was not covered her insulated costume in was her eyes and mouth which should have led to her to being fried. The fight could have been dragged out a little longer and have Stephanie defeat her through wit.


Aww. I loved the Livewire fight. And it's not like Livewire is ever really used in a physically plausible way. For example, I don't think Batgirl in Burnside handled it any better. (Also, does it really fry you if your boots are insulated, so you're not grounded?)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Aww. I loved the Livewire fight. And it's not like Livewire is ever really used in a physically plausible way. For example, I don't think Batgirl in Burnside handled it any better. (Also, does it really fry you if your boots are insulated, so you're not grounded?)


Well Livewire is able to fight Superman so she should give Stephanie a bigger challenge so some expected more from her. You can't be fried by electricity at all since you're covered by insulated material to groudn electricity would require something to direct into the ground.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Livewire is able to fight Superman so she should give Stephanie a bigger challenge so some expected more from her. You can't be fried by electricity at all since you're covered by insulated material to groudn electricity would require something to direct into the ground.


Livewire does mention that she fights Superman. But she doesn't have a ton of stories, so I don't think it's a big problem that Steph takes her down.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Livewire does mention that she fights Superman. But she doesn't have a ton of stories, so I don't think it's a big problem that Steph takes her down.


Well you could say that I won't say Stephanie needs an archenemy to be interesting but a prolonging the fight between would have made for a better show if get what I mean. But I admit I do think that the way Stephanie took Livewire down was funny even if it didn't make a whole lot of sense. I also wondered how Miller could have made an adult actually like Stephanie when he can't be so blind tot he fact she's underage.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well you could say that I won't say Stephanie needs an archenemy to be interesting but a prolonging the fight between would have made for a better show if get what I mean. But I admit I do think that the way Stephanie took Livewire down was funny even if it didn't make a whole lot of sense. I also wondered how Miller could have made an adult actually like Stephanie when he can't be so blind tot he fact she's underage.


Steph has an archenemy - Cluemaster!  :Smile: 

Steph is 19 - I don't think that's really underage. That was just Gordon poking at Nick. "Yoo hoo!"

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph has an archenemy - Cluemaster! 
> 
> Steph is 19 - I don't think that's really underage. That was just Gordon poking at Nick. "Yoo hoo!"


Okay that's true but Cluemaster can only last so long as an enemy unless DC does Wonder Scott's idea and have Cluemaster be part of a group of C and D list villains trying to take Stephanie down. But Nick is twenty or thirty I'm pretty sure she isn't legal yet for him.

----------


## millernumber1

> Okay that's true but Cluemaster can only last so long as an enemy unless DC does Wonder Scott's idea and have Cluemaster be part of a group of C and D list villains trying to take Stephanie down. But Nick is twenty or thirty I'm pretty sure she isn't legal yet for him.


Well...that's exactly the plan that Cluemaster was pulling with the Order of the Scythe...

I don't think there's any laws after 18. But that's a state by state thing, so maybe I'm wrong. But still. 19.

----------


## WonderScott

> Welcome! I've been here for a while, and I still haven't read the WHOLE thread. It's a lot of pages.  Page 200 here we come!
> 
> I think we got a significant chunk of Spoiler stuff in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal. But we'd have to have more street-level stuff, and a stronger status quo to really get it at this point.
> 
> As for Steph vs. Roxy...good times, good times (Batgirl: Stephanie Brown vol. 1 on sale now!)


Thanks millernumber1! 

I loved that aspect of Steph in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal - I guess I just want to see it get extended into her mode and purpose in Rebirth and whatever reality happens after Doomsday Clock. Part of it is also my love obscure Batvillains and one-offs that might creatively be renewed. Gotham is such a massive place, that I love finding space for all of the Batfamily. (As you can tell from my Bette love in the other thread.) 

Batgirl's run was so great and I really appreciated seeing Roxy there again. She's got a similar zeal to Steph so it was fun to see them face off in that respect. 

I do love her and am okay with her being Spoiler too. Like Flamebird, I'd like to see Steph as part of a Teen Titans or Young Justice team too.

----------


## WonderScott

> That should suit Stephanie's character very nicely it's too bad to pitch it to DC you need a sledgehammer to get pass the wall surrounding the comic book industry. And it's Calendar Man not Calendar Girl she's from the DCAU. And welcome to the thread


Thanks The Dying Detective - we keep finding each other everywhere!  :Wink:  

And I definitely meant Calendar Girl. I wasn't a huge fan of the BTAS revising itself to The New Batman Adventures for multiple reasons, but Calendar Girl stood out to me as character. She's an interesting momentary on sexism and the "cult of youth" that I think could get expanded on in interesting ways. I'd migrate her over from the DCAU in a heartbeat. 

The more villainesses in Gotham the better, says I.

----------


## WonderScott

> Why do you have to explain it? Just give her a quick origin or something, and you're good. 
> 
> BQM isn't her creator, he just loved using DCAU stuff in the Batgirl series. Like Roxy!


Yeah, despite similar code names and a penchant for crimes on holidays, Julian Day and Paige Monroe have different motivations that could get expanded...and a little rivalry between them wouldn't necessarily be a horrible either. 

It'd be interesting if Gothamites kind of held holidays in some feelings of trepidation because of these two.

----------


## WonderScott

Another thought is revitalizing some of these more obscure villains could make them Steph's villains - meaning they have a personal reason or vendetta to target and thwart Spoiler in particular. 

While I love members of the Batfamily going up against major Batfoes from time to time (because: fun), characters like Spoiler, Flamebird, Bluebird, etc. need to start developing their own primary villains. 

I mean, even Black Canary and Huntress suffer from not have a solid number of, let's say five, villains to call their own. I get that many think of the majority of the Batwomen as supporting characters, but one way to twist that is to give them compelling plots and subplots with interesting, non-throwaway, villains of their own.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks millernumber1! 
> 
> I loved that aspect of Steph in Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal - I guess I just want to see it get extended into her mode and purpose in Rebirth and whatever reality happens after Doomsday Clock. Part of it is also my love obscure Batvillains and one-offs that might creatively be renewed. Gotham is such a massive place, that I love finding space for all of the Batfamily. (As you can tell from my Bette love in the other thread.) 
> 
> Batgirl's run was so great and I really appreciated seeing Roxy there again. She's got a similar zeal to Steph so it was fun to see them face off in that respect. 
> 
> I do love her and am okay with her being Spoiler too. Like Flamebird, I'd like to see Steph as part of a Teen Titans or Young Justice team too.


I would be very interested to see what Steph would be like on the Titans or YJ - she's never really been allowed to join before. Now that she has some team experience in Tec (albeit not the best experience), maybe DC is ready to let her do something else.




> Another thought is revitalizing some of these more obscure villains could make them Steph's villains - meaning they have a personal reason or vendetta to target and thwart Spoiler in particular. 
> 
> While I love members of the Batfamily going up against major Batfoes from time to time (because: fun), characters like Spoiler, Flamebird, Bluebird, etc. need to start developing their own primary villains. 
> 
> I mean, even Black Canary and Huntress suffer from not have a solid number of, let's say five, villains to call their own. I get that many think of the majority of the Batwomen as supporting characters, but one way to twist that is to give them compelling plots and subplots with interesting, non-throwaway, villains of their own.


To develop villains, a character also needs to have a solo, otherwise the villain isn't really considered "yours." That's one leg up that both Steph and Cass have on many other characters - they have really serious villains. For Cass, she has Shiva and David Cain. For Steph, she has Cluemaster. That's good. It's not so good that literally all of them are dead in the n52/Rebirth continuity. I know they'll be back, but they aren't back yet...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well...that's exactly the plan that Cluemaster was pulling with the Order of the Scythe...
> 
> I don't think there's any laws after 18. But that's a state by state thing, so maybe I'm wrong. But still. 19.


Oh it's been done before well if DC ever thinks of giving Stephanie a solo again maybe DC should consider reviving the Order of the Scythe. Well Gordon is a veteran policeman I am sure he knows pretty much all of Gotham's laws including whether or not it's legal for nineteen year old girls to date twenty to thirty year old men.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Thanks The Dying Detective - we keep finding each other everywhere!  
> 
> And I definitely meant Calendar Girl. I wasn't a huge fan of the BTAS revising itself to The New Batman Adventures for multiple reasons, but Calendar Girl stood out to me as character. She's an interesting momentary on sexism and the "cult of youth" that I think could get expanded on in interesting ways. I'd migrate her over from the DCAU in a heartbeat. 
> 
> The more villainesses in Gotham the better, says I.


You're welcome and well it's a small website. How come you didn't like the revision of Batman: The Animated Series? I'm not so sure on the sexism part regarding Calendar Girl but I think you're right on the money regarding the cult of youth thing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh it's been done before well if DC ever thinks of giving Stephanie a solo again maybe DC should consider reviving the Order of the Scythe. Well Gordon is a veteran policeman I am sure he knows pretty much all of Gotham's laws including whether or not it's legal for nineteen year old girls to date twenty to thirty year old men.


It has been done, and done well (if a bit truncated because it was supposed to last for several more issues).

I am curious to know how many people shipped Steph and Gage. I never really did, because I'm still TimSteph forever, but I thought it was cute. I know a couple people liked it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It has been done, and done well (if a bit truncated because it was supposed to last for several more issues).
> 
> I am curious to know how many people shipped Steph and Gage. I never really did, because I'm still TimSteph forever, but I thought it was cute. I know a couple people liked it.


What was the Order of Scythe doing in the stories that featured them anyway? I know I didn't ship Stephanie and Gage but looking back at it I found the idea funny at least. Though i can't imagine what would happen if ti got serious but I've seen enough stories where underage boys and girl chase after people older than me to have an idea on how it could have gone.

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## millernumber1

> What was the Order of Scythe doing in the stories that featured them anyway? I know I didn't ship Stephanie and Gage but looking back at it I found the idea funny at least. Though i can't imagine what would happen if ti got serious but I've seen enough stories where underage boys and girl chase after people older than me to have an idea on how it could have gone.


The Order of the Scythe was mostly just doing crimes to get lots of money to fund their tech which gave them powers. And also serving as the arms for Steph's arch-nemesis.  :Smile: 

(Off topic - I really enjoyed the exploration of a teenager falling in love with an older person in the Vampire Academy series of novels - I thought it handled a lot of the issues pretty well.)

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## The Dying Detective

> The Order of the Scythe was mostly just doing crimes to get lots of money to fund their tech which gave them powers. And also serving as the arms for Steph's arch-nemesis. 
> 
> (Off topic - I really enjoyed the exploration of a teenager falling in love with an older person in the Vampire Academy series of novels - I thought it handled a lot of the issues pretty well.)


The Order of the Scythe are definitely like the Flash's Rogues but do they have code like they did? Okay I'll bite how did Vampire Academy handle the issue of teenager falling for older people?

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## millernumber1

> The Order of the Scythe are definitely like the Flash's Rogues but do they have code like they did?


They don't really have a code - they're a bunch of sociopathic teenagers thrillkilling a LOT of people. But they're not allowed to kill Steph because of who hired them.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They don't really have a code - they're a bunch of sociopathic teenagers thrillkilling a LOT of people. But they're not allowed to kill Steph because of who hired them.


That is in some ways like the Flash's Rogues one of the new additions to their code is to never kill a Flash though Golden Glider almost did. I am amazed Cluemaster reigned the Order of the Scythe in at all and prevented them from killing Stephanie. How did he do it.

----------


## millernumber1

> That is in some ways like the Flash's Rogues one of the new additions to their code is to never kill a Flash though Golden Glider almost did. I am amazed Cluemaster reigned the Order of the Scythe in at all and prevented them from killing Stephanie. How did he do it.


Security camera observation and shock collars.

(It's a really good story - everyone should read it! Batgirl: Stephanie Brown volumes 1 and 2 on sale now!)  :Smile:

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## WonderNight

17 and under is under aged in most states 16 in some. 18 and older are full on adults so Stephanie with someone older is fine.

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## The Dying Detective

> Security camera observation and shock collars.
> 
> (It's a really good story - everyone should read it! Batgirl: Stephanie Brown volumes 1 and 2 on sale now!)


Okay wow and thanks for pointing it out I 'll read it when I have the time.




> 17 and under is under aged in most states 16 in some. 18 and older are full on adults so Stephanie with someone older is fine.


Okay maybe I didn't think that one through though there should be some sort of boundary.

----------


## millernumber1

> Okay wow and thanks for pointing it out I 'll read it when I have the time.
> 
> Okay maybe I didn't think that one through though there should be some sort of boundary.


Definitely recommend! Steph as Batgirl is one of the best runs of all time. It's not, perhaps, something that is "world shattering" like Watchmen or something, but it's really well crafted - all the pieces are fit together, and it's very moving - and the art is really solid (though Ramon Bachs isn't my favorite of the recurring artists).

Maybe it's just me as a Jane Austen/Charles Dickens lover, but the age gap thing is more common in those books.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Definitely recommend! Steph as Batgirl is one of the best runs of all time. It's not, perhaps, something that is "world shattering" like Watchmen or something, but it's really well crafted - all the pieces are fit together, and it's very moving - and the art is really solid (though Ramon Bachs isn't my favorite of the recurring artists).
> 
> Maybe it's just me as a Jane Austen/Charles Dickens lover, but the age gap thing is more common in those books.


Thanks I've seen some of Stephanie's Batgirl book and despite it's flaws it had a good direction and the stories were good. And prove all you need to do is tell a good story for a book to sell. Even though it was cancelled in light of the reboot at least editorial didn't interfere with its direction like Marvel did with Renew Your Vows the writer quit because he didn't want to commit the order. Well one should take into the age gap into account as things could get really creepy if you don't anyway.

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## millernumber1

> Thanks I've seen some of Stephanie's Batgirl book and despite it's flaws it had a good direction and the stories were good. And prove all you need to do is tell a good story for a book to sell. Even though it was cancelled in light of the reboot at least editorial didn't interfere with its direction like Marvel did with Renew Your Vows the writer quit because he didn't want to commit the order. Well one should take into the age gap into account as things could get really creepy if you don't anyway.


What flaws do you see with Steph's run as Batgirl? I have a couple of things I wish had been tightened up, but in the whole I think it's truly an example of excellent craftsmanship.

I hadn't heard what happened with Renew Your Vows. It has turned into a Spider-Girl series, which is fine, but not really what I hoped for. And the art is horrendous.

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## The Dying Detective

> What flaws do you see with Steph's run as Batgirl? I have a couple of things I wish had been tightened up, but in the whole I think it's truly an example of excellent craftsmanship.
> 
> I hadn't heard what happened with Renew Your Vows. It has turned into a Spider-Girl series, which is fine, but not really what I hoped for. And the art is horrendous.


Well the most I have complain about is the Livewire fight and the semi-questionable attraction between Stephanie and Nick. The first writer of Renew Your Vows Gerry Conway revealed on a podcast why he left the book sales of the book started strong and then they fell but it was still selling. The boss panicked but then saw that the variant covers with Mary Jane as Venom sold well and they demanded he do a Renew Your Vows tie-in to Venomverse and Venomise Mary jane. Conway was upset because he wanted to tell a story about the family not that one  and left. So at least Stephanie's Batgirl comic wasn't forced to change direction.

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## millernumber1

> Well the most I have complain about is the Livewire fight and the semi-questionable attraction between Stephanie and Nick. The first writer of Renew Your Vows Gerry Conway revealed on a podcast why he left the book sales of the book started strong and then they fell but it was still selling. The boss panicked but then saw that the variant covers with Mary Jane as Venom sold well and they demanded he do a Renew Your Vows tie-in to Venomverse and Venomise Mary jane. Conway was upset because he wanted to tell a story about the family not that one  and left. So at least Stephanie's Batgirl comic wasn't forced to change direction.


Hmm. I guess it may depends on how important Livewire is for you. To me, Livewire is just another villain - I had no attachment to her, or expectation that she's super hard to beat. (I had the same reaction when people were really mad that Steph was fighting Wrath in Tec last year - I was like, "I've never heard of Wrath, why do people act like he's some huge challenge.)

That's very sad to hear about Renew Your Vows. There was a bit of editorial interference with BQM - he wanted to touch on the baby Steph gave up for adoption, and a couple of other things. And, of course, there's a very clear indication that he had to wrap up earlier than he'd planned. Plus the whole tie-in to Batman, Inc was editorially mandated, but he did a great job with that.

----------


## WonderScott

> You're welcome and well it's a small website. How come you didn't like the revision of Batman: The Animated Series? I'm not so sure on the sexism part regarding Calendar Girl but I think you're right on the money regarding the cult of youth thing.


The character designs were much more simplistic, not as rich, and some of the poetic-ness of the stories were lost. I can't imagine a heartbreaking story like "Heart of Ice" or a fun story like "Almost Got 'Im" being told in The New Batman Adventures.

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## The Dying Detective

> Hmm. I guess it may depends on how important Livewire is for you. To me, Livewire is just another villain - I had no attachment to her, or expectation that she's super hard to beat. (I had the same reaction when people were really mad that Steph was fighting Wrath in Tec last year - I was like, "I've never heard of Wrath, why do people act like he's some huge challenge.)
> 
> That's very sad to hear about Renew Your Vows. There was a bit of editorial interference with BQM - he wanted to touch on the baby Steph gave up for adoption, and a couple of other things. And, of course, there's a very clear indication that he had to wrap up earlier than he'd planned. Plus the whole tie-in to Batman, Inc was editorially mandated, but he did a great job with that.


Well it's not that Livewire is important to me I just like consistency you know the characters do not go around breaking the rules of the magic system in ways that are somewhat illogical and ruin the narrative. Being a creative and something of a perfectionist I like to see things like that in the media I look into. Well Wrath is actually also a big name villain of Batman's actually but not used as often as the others tend to be. So the outrage might be logical to a degree. Yup well at least Bryan Q. Miller wasn't made so mad by the editorial he wanted to quit or the quality in his work dropped because of it. What would have been his follow up on Stephanie's baby have been like? What other stories he had planned but the editors said no to?

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## The Dying Detective

> The character designs were much more simplistic, not as rich, and some of the poetic-ness of the stories were lost. I can't imagine a heartbreaking story like "Heart of Ice" or a fun story like "Almost Got 'Im" being told in The New Batman Adventures.


Funny enough I liked the simplified designs and I see what you mean about the loss of the poetic-ness of the stories I got the impression that as I look back at it they running out of steam and should have wrapped the whole instead of continuing.

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## millernumber1

> Well it's not that Livewire is important to me I just like consistency you know the characters do not go around breaking the rules of the magic system in ways that are somewhat illogical and ruin the narrative. Being a creative and something of a perfectionist I like to see things like that in the media I look into. Well Wrath is actually also a big name villain of Batman's actually but not used as often as the others tend to be. So the outrage might be logical to a degree. Yup well at least Bryan Q. Miller wasn't made so mad by the editorial he wanted to quit or the quality in his work dropped because of it. What would have been his follow up on Stephanie's baby have been like? What other stories he had planned but the editors said no to?


People told me Wrath is a big name villain, but I think that's silly. He's in like three or four stories, despite being invented a long time ago, so he's clearly not that big a name. Is the dude from Batman Year Two a big name villain? I don't think so. Big name villains have to stick around and actually do things.

BQM has quit, though. He stuck around for about three years during the n52 writing the awesome Smallville Season 11 comic (digital first), but didn't get (possibly didn't ask for) another title, and that had a bunch of editorial interference (again surrounding Steph - he introduced Batman, and wanted to make Steph Nightwing, but Didio crushed that dream AFTER the announcement.) He finished off the series, and then he's worked in tv exclusively for the past 4 years. Which I think pays way better, so there's very little temptation for him to come back, especially since DC has no desire to give Steph the solo she deserves.

We have no clue what the followup on Steph's baby would be, because DC's never allowed anyone to acknowledge it beyond a mention. The other stories he planned but didn't have time for were mostly the splash pages you see in issue #24.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> People told me Wrath is a big name villain, but I think that's silly. He's in like three or four stories, despite being invented a long time ago, so he's clearly not that big a name. Is the dude from Batman Year Two a big name villain? I don't think so. Big name villains have to stick around and actually do things.
> 
> BQM has quit, though. He stuck around for about three years during the n52 writing the awesome Smallville Season 11 comic (digital first), but didn't get (possibly didn't ask for) another title, and that had a bunch of editorial interference (again surrounding Steph - he introduced Batman, and wanted to make Steph Nightwing, but Didio crushed that dream AFTER the announcement.) He finished off the series, and then he's worked in tv exclusively for the past 4 years. Which I think pays way better, so there's very little temptation for him to come back, especially since DC has no desire to give Steph the solo she deserves.
> 
> We have no clue what the followup on Steph's baby would be, because DC's never allowed anyone to acknowledge it beyond a mention. The other stories he planned but didn't have time for were mostly the splash pages you see in issue #24.


Well when you put it that way I see that there might not have been anything worth trying with Wrath however to bring out an old character that had something more to him than your average D-list character and to use him in a way that could be considered poor idea. I mean they didn't interfere with his time writing Stephanie to the point he got upset and quit the book the same way Conway quit over the change in direction with Renew Your Vows. Conway didn't even stay until the book reached the 10s. I think movie and TV writing pays much better than comic book writing the industry might need to do away with the old work for hire model since these days people desire more money and stable employment. And it's probably why Yost, Kyle, and Miller haven't done a Marvel or DC comic in years already. The problem with giving Stephanie a solo at the moment lies in the fact Tynion had mismanaged her to the point reception for her is not very high so there can't be one until Tynion or someone else redeems her. 

Okay well I saw the splash page for the Blackest Night tie-in and it did seem interesting especially to see Damian and Barbara using Red and Green Lantern rings. I bet that future where Stephanie meets the Blackhawks could have been a time travel story.

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## millernumber1

> Well when you put it that way I see that there might not have been anything worth trying with Wrath however to bring out an old character that had something more to him than your average D-list character and to use him in a way that could be considered poor idea. I mean they didn't interfere with his time writing Stephanie to the point he got upset and quit the book the same way Conway quit over the change in direction with Renew Your Vows. Conway didn't even stay until the book reached the 10s. I think movie and TV writing pays much better than comic book writing the industry might need to do away with the old work for hire model since these days people desire more money and stable employment. And it's probably why Yost, Kyle, and Miller haven't done a Marvel or DC comic in years already. The problem with giving Stephanie a solo at the moment lies in the fact Tynion had mismanaged her to the point reception for her is not very high so there can't be one until Tynion or someone else redeems her. 
> 
> Okay well I saw the splash page for the Blackest Night tie-in and it did seem interesting especially to see Damian and Barbara using Red and Green Lantern rings. I bet that future where Stephanie meets the Blackhawks could have been a time travel story.


That's true. BQM stayed for just over 2 years, and was well into his plot. No sign that he was exiting.

The exclusivity contracts tend to be what people like about comics. The freelance model is what people don't really like, I think.

Yeah, I think Tynion has damanged the fanbase. I think the die-hard Steph fans would probably still want to buy it, but there's only a couple new fans, and a lot of people who used to like her don't like her anymore.

Yup, the Blackhawks with Babs and Cass was definitely going to be a time-travel story.  :Smile:

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## The Dying Detective

> That's true. BQM stayed for just over 2 years, and was well into his plot. No sign that he was exiting.
> 
> The exclusivity contracts tend to be what people like about comics. The freelance model is what people don't really like, I think.
> 
> Yeah, I think Tynion has damaged the fanbase. I think the die-hard Steph fans would probably still want to buy it, but there's only a couple new fans, and a lot of people who used to like her don't like her anymore.
> 
> Yup, the Blackhawks with Babs and Cass was definitely going to be a time-travel story.


Exactly, so the editors needs to know when to interfere and when to not interfere. Yeah well exclusivity contracts do pay a lot more money but they seem to go to big name writers mainly. The other thing missing in the comic book industry is somewhat missing is mentor-ship.  So Tynion had better make his final issue on Detective count to redeem her and then future writers could find Stephanie appealing anough to actually use her. But there is the option of gambling on giving Stephanie a solo book and hope it will be well received. But that's so crazy I don't think even Didio is foolish enough to try it. I wonder whether that time travel story would have meant that a past version of Barbara who had yet to be crippled was going to appear?

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## millernumber1

> Exactly, so the editors needs to know when to interfere and when to not interfere. Yeah well exclusivity contracts do pay a lot more money but they seem to go to big name writers mainly. The other thing missing in the comic book industry is somewhat missing is mentor-ship.  So Tynion had better make his final issue on Detective count to redeem her and then future writers could find Stephanie appealing anough to actually use her. But there is the option of gambling on giving Stephanie a solo book and hope it will be well received. But that's so crazy I don't think even Didio is foolish enough to try it. I wonder whether that time travel story would have meant that a past version of Barbara who had yet to be crippled was going to appear?


Well, I do wonder about how much a big selling title does vs. a "normal" title at 20k (which was BQM's Batgirl). Because it's my understanding that they're paid by the page.

It makes sense to give exclusivity to someone who can sell lots of books based on their name, doesn't it? I know I follow writers and artists to books I wouldn't normally buy (though it's usually characters that get me to buy stuff. Like Steph!)

There's actually a lot of mentorship going on at DC right now - the imprints seem to imply a certain amount of mentorship by the head of the imprint (like Gerard Way or Bendis or Warren Ellis), and Snyder is famous (sometime infamous) for picking writing students like Tynion, Bennett, and Higgins and bringing them into DC's writing stable.

I'm definitely going to ask Tynion if Steph fans can look forward to her part of the end of Tec. I'm still trying to figure out how to word it correctly to show that I enjoy a lot of what he's done with her, but also that the fandom is not happy with it as a whole.

Didio hates Steph. He says he doesn't, but he keeps saying, "I gave her a chance and she failed." Okay, Didio. Why do you keep giving Jason and Babs and Damian chances, when their solo titles sell much worse than Steph for much longer? Last year, I was so tempted to be That Steph Fan Guy and demand he stop doing that crap to Steph when I saw him walking around on the floor, but I'd rather not become part of the Steph legend of hostile fans attacking creators all the time.

Yes, the splash page shows Steph, Cass, and Babs, all standing together and smiling (well, Cass had her Batgirl mask on, so we couldn't see if she was smiling, but I bet she was). It was probably going to be like the awesome Batman: The Brave and the Bold #13, where all of the Robins (including Steph!) showed up to help Batman.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I do wonder about how much a big selling title does vs. a "normal" title at 20k (which was BQM's Batgirl). Because it's my understanding that they're paid by the page.
> 
> It makes sense to give exclusivity to someone who can sell lots of books based on their name, doesn't it? I know I follow writers and artists to books I wouldn't normally buy (though it's usually characters that get me to buy stuff. Like Steph!)
> 
> There's actually a lot of mentorship going on at DC right now - the imprints seem to imply a certain amount of mentorship by the head of the imprint (like Gerard Way or Bendis or Warren Ellis), and Snyder is famous (sometime infamous) for picking writing students like Tynion, Bennett, and Higgins and bringing them into DC's writing stable.
> 
> I'm definitely going to ask Tynion if Steph fans can look forward to her part of the end of Tec. I'm still trying to figure out how to word it correctly to show that I enjoy a lot of what he's done with her, but also that the fandom is not happy with it as a whole.
> 
> Didio hates Steph. He says he doesn't, but he keeps saying, "I gave her a chance and she failed." Okay, Didio. Why do you keep giving Jason and Babs and Damian chances, when their solo titles sell much worse than Steph for much longer? Last year, I was so tempted to be That Steph Fan Guy and demand he stop doing that crap to Steph when I saw him walking around on the floor, but I'd rather not become part of the Steph legend of hostile fans attacking creators all the time.
> ...


I am not an expert on how well any title can sell but the general consensus is that it has to be a good quality product so great art and tight writing are a must. Well it also helps that the big name writers are also help sell books because of their renowned skill give confidence that they can handle the character they are writing.

Really I did not know that considering there are no internships at DC but I hope the other imprints like Zoom and Ink have people guiding the writers there many of whom may not have ever written a comic and need to know how to use the medium wisely. They should consider opening up internships to allow new talent to come in more easily. And that writing for panels is a lot different from writing prose. And I will remind you when the day before AwesomeCon to ask Tynion.

Well that's unfortunate and Didio sometimes looked like he's actually trying something to save the comic book industry. Well until someone comes onboard with a more professional mindset it could be a while before Stephanie gets her shot at the spotlight but given how much free reign Tynion has I don't think Didio is much of a problem maybe except in giving her a solo title.

But Jason and Damian are quite popular Jason in particular had actually became a subject of interest that DC was oblivious to when he came back from the dead.

Yeah it's a pity Miller never got to write that one going on a time travel adventure would have taken Stephanie to the next level.

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## millernumber1

> I am not an expert on how well any title can sell but the general consensus is that it has to be a good quality product so great art and tight writing are a must. Well it also helps that the big name writers are also help sell books because of their renowned skill give confidence that they can handle the character they are writing.
> 
> Really I did not know that considering there are no internships at DC but I hope the other imprints like Zoom and Ink have people guiding the writers there many of whom may not have ever written a comic and need to know how to use the medium wisely. They should consider opening up internships to allow new talent to come in more easily. And that writing for panels is a lot different from writing prose. And I will remind you when the day before AwesomeCon to ask Tynion.
> 
> Well that's unfortunate and Didio sometimes looked like he's actually trying something to save the comic book industry. Well until someone comes onboard with a more professional mindset it could be a while before Stephanie gets her shot at the spotlight but given how much free reign Tynion has I don't think Didio is much of a problem maybe except in giving her a solo title.
> 
> But Jason and Damian are quite popular Jason in particular had actually became a subject of interest that DC was oblivious to when he came back from the dead.
> 
> Yeah it's a pity Miller never got to write that one going on a time travel adventure would have taken Stephanie to the next level.


See, I don't have a ton of confidence that a badly written comic will fail. See also: Hush, War Games, several others. Art quality usually does have to be fairly high, but that doesn't guarantee anything, sadly. People do understandably follow writers around - I know I did. That's why I read all of Smallville Season 11 after Batgirl, because I trusted BQM, even though I hadn't really watched the show at all, and am not a consistent fan of Superman. And I don't regret it!

I don't know about internships, but they have the talent workshops which are supposed to mentor, and then there's Snyder. I think there may very well be a lack of official mentorship opportunities, though. The next Talent Workshop is going to be for all the Ink and Zoom people, Jim Lee says.

Didio is confusing to me. On the one hand, his first big project as Editor in Chief was War Games. And that was terrible and gross, and he kept taunting fans about it, and being a jerk about Steph generally. On the other hand, I've never seen someone at that level apologize to fans like he did in the Rebirth announcement panel. That seriously impressed me. So I basically just think he hates Steph, but isn't a bad guy.

Jason and Damian are popular, but it doesn't show in their solo titles.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> See, I don't have a ton of confidence that a badly written comic will fail. See also: Hush, War Games, several others. Art quality usually does have to be fairly high, but that doesn't guarantee anything, sadly. People do understandably follow writers around - I know I did. That's why I read all of Smallville Season 11 after Batgirl, because I trusted BQM, even though I hadn't really watched the show at all, and am not a consistent fan of Superman. And I don't regret it!
> 
> I don't know about internships, but they have the talent workshops which are supposed to mentor, and then there's Snyder. I think there may very well be a lack of official mentorship opportunities, though. The next Talent Workshop is going to be for all the Ink and Zoom people, Jim Lee says.
> 
> Didio is confusing to me. On the one hand, his first big project as Editor in Chief was War Games. And that was terrible and gross, and he kept taunting fans about it, and being a jerk about Steph generally. On the other hand, I've never seen someone at that level apologize to fans like he did in the Rebirth announcement panel. That seriously impressed me. So I basically just think he hates Steph, but isn't a bad guy.
> 
> Jason and Damian are popular, but it doesn't show in their solo titles.


Well stuff that could be trash tends to get a following for some reason and it often requires someone with skill to study the material to know what made it interesting despite it being trash. Stephen King understood that Twilight's appeal came mainly from offering girls some sort of immature love fantasy that they will read regardless of how it's done. So someone needs to look into studying stuff like Hush and War Games to know how on earth did it sell. Was it simply because it was a Batman story? Or maybe it offered some sort of fantasy that appealed to the readers?

I believe though there are a contingent of fans who don't like creators being promoted in such a way that they steal the spotlight from the characters they are writing for though. I wonder how much of a problem that really is or is it non-existent?

Well at least DC is actually doing some thinking and actually functioning with some level of forethought. I'm just saying the upcoming talent who want to get into comics need an easier way in.

Didio is one really funny man but it's clear that he loves his job otherwise he would not have taken the moves he did with Rebirth. But those who hate probably need to update their research on him especially in light of recent events.

Really I thought Red Hood and the Outlaws and Super Sons was doing pretty good? And didn't Robin: Son of Batman out sell Tim's Red Robin title?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well stuff that could be trash tends to get a following for some reason and it often requires someone with skill to study the material to know what made it interesting despite it being trash. Stephen King understood that Twilight's appeal came mainly from offering girls some sort of immature love fantasy that they will read regardless of how it's done. So someone needs to look into studying stuff like Hush and War Games to know how on earth did it sell. Was it simply because it was a Batman story? Or maybe it offered some sort of fantasy that appealed to the readers?
> 
> I believe though there are a contingent of fans who don't like creators being promoted in such a way that they steal the spotlight from the characters they are writing for though. I wonder how much of a problem that really is or is it non-existent?
> 
> Well at least DC is actually doing some thinking and actually functioning with some level of forethought. I'm just saying the upcoming talent who want to get into comics need an easier way in.
> 
> Didio is one really funny man but it's clear that he loves his job otherwise he would not have taken the moves he did with Rebirth. But those who hate probably need to update their research on him especially in light of recent events.
> 
> Really I thought Red Hood and the Outlaws and Super Sons was doing pretty good? And didn't Robin: Son of Batman out sell Tim's Red Robin title?


I really wish I could figure out why these stories sell. I think for Hush a lot of it was Jim Lee's art. And you don't know going in that the ending is going to be bad, which is a large part of why I dislike Hush. As for War Games...it's an event. Lots of fans like to read events because they "matter" - that is, they change things for their favorite characters. And we like bigger stories, gives us a sense of excitement that our normal monthly comics don't always reach. Heck, I've ordered Action Comics #1000, and I haven't even been reading that series.

I haven't really heard of fans who dislike creators who build a following. I know of fans who dislike specific creators, but I hadn't seen what you're talking about - maybe it's happening, I'm just unaware of it.

I don't hate him anymore. Heck, I don't even hate Willingham, which is the default position of most Steph fans that I know (because Willingham has said that he didn't really want to kill Steph, and would have preferred to keep her as Robin. He was a jerk to some fans, though.)

I'll have to do a check on Jason, Tim, and Damian's numbers after work. Super Sons I don't really count, because it has two main characters, which brings in two sets of fans. So you can't say "Damian sells well because Super Sons sells well." I'd look at Teen Titans and aggregate it with Super Sons to get a sense of what Damian's popularity is. (Also: I am not hating on Jason and Damian here. I like both of them.)

----------


## Assam

> I'll have to do a check on Jason, Tim, and Damian's numbers after work. Super Sons I don't really count, because it has two main characters, which brings in two sets of fans. So you can't say "Damian sells well because Super Sons sells well." I'd look at Teen Titans and aggregate it with Super Sons to get a sense of what Damian's popularity is. (Also: I am not hating on Jason and Damian here. I like both of them.)


Red Robin #26 (2011): 26,939 
Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol 2 #19  (2018): 20,744 (Note: Prior to Rebirth, Red Hood/Arsenal #12 sold 16,402.)
Robin Son of Batman #12 (2016): 22,428

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really wish I could figure out why these stories sell. I think for Hush a lot of it was Jim Lee's art. And you don't know going in that the ending is going to be bad, which is a large part of why I dislike Hush. As for War Games...it's an event. Lots of fans like to read events because they "matter" - that is, they change things for their favorite characters. And we like bigger stories, gives us a sense of excitement that our normal monthly comics don't always reach. Heck, I've ordered Action Comics #1000, and I haven't even been reading that series.
> 
> I haven't really heard of fans who dislike creators who build a following. I know of fans who dislike specific creators, but I hadn't seen what you're talking about - maybe it's happening, I'm just unaware of it.
> 
> I don't hate him anymore. Heck, I don't even hate Willingham, which is the default position of most Steph fans that I know (because Willingham has said that he didn't really want to kill Steph, and would have preferred to keep her as Robin. He was a jerk to some fans, though.)
> 
> I'll have to do a check on Jason, Tim, and Damian's numbers after work. Super Sons I don't really count, because it has two main characters, which brings in two sets of fans. So you can't say "Damian sells well because Super Sons sells well." I'd look at Teen Titans and aggregate it with Super Sons to get a sense of what Damian's popularity is. (Also: I am not hating on Jason and Damian here. I like both of them.)


Well art and because it's an event story are factors I did not take into account because event stories could be trash and they still get attention because fans want to know how is ti going to affect their favourite characters. Will they die or will something in it change them? Those are probably questions everyone asks when they read events. I know people eat with their eyes first but I don't understand come reading the book essentially tasting it doesn't make the reader want to throw them away and never buy the book again.

The only person I got this idea that there might be a contingent of fans who hate creators building a following is Shawn James but he conducts miserable research despite saying some truthful things. So I can't really trust him. And despite apparently being a talented writer he doens't have a strong following. I think it's because his terrible behaviour and maybe he's just sour that he doesn't have one.

Well I don't really hate Didio either mainly because I don't live in America and despite liking comics I have a more lax attitude towards them. And who is Willingham anyway? Was he the one who wrote Batman when Stephanie was Robin?

It's cool I know you do like all the Robins for their own merits and so do I. And when you do find out those numbers let me know.

----------


## millernumber1

> Red Robin #26 (2011): 26,939 
> Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol 2 #19  (2018): 20,744 (Note: Prior to Rebirth, Red Hood/Arsenal #12 sold 16,402.)
> Robin Son of Batman #12 (2016): 22,428


Thanks! I knew Tim sold better than Steph (but not that much - just about 7k). But Jason seems like he's selling just about the same as Steph, and Damian is selling below where Steph was at issue 12 (28k). I like these guys, but if they deserve titles at those numbers, so does Steph.




> Well art and because it's an event story are factors I did not take into account because event stories could be trash and they still get attention because fans want to know how is ti going to affect their favourite characters. Will they die or will something in it change them? Those are probably questions everyone asks when they read events. I know people eat with their eyes first but I don't understand come reading the book essentially tasting it doesn't make the reader want to throw them away and never buy the book again.
> 
> The only person I got this idea that there might be a contingent of fans who hate creators building a following is Shawn James but he conducts miserable research despite saying some truthful things. So I can't really trust him. And despite apparently being a talented writer he doens't have a strong following. I think it's because his terrible behaviour and maybe he's just sour that he doesn't have one.
> 
> Well I don't really hate Didio either mainly because I don't live in America and despite liking comics I have a more lax attitude towards them. And who is Willingham anyway? Was he the one who wrote Batman when Stephanie was Robin?
> 
> It's cool I know you do like all the Robins for their own merits and so do I. And when you do find out those numbers let me know.


Event stories are 1) almost always trash, and 2) almost always sell like gangbusters. It's super depressing to people like me, who hate events usually. (Except for Action 1000. And I'm going to buy Tec 1000, no matter what.  :Smile:  )

Oh, dear. I don't think Shawn James has the kind of reach to make him representative of much more than himself, thankfully.

Willingham is the writer who wrote the Steph as Robin issues, and also wrote the issues where she got tortured to death. He's famous among Steph fans because he got really sick of being yelled at for killing her and was kind of a jerk in response (this is my take on it. Other people would tell you that he's just a terrible person, and killing Steph and being a jerk to her fans is part of him being a terrible person. I've never met him, though I did want to meet him last year, but he cancelled, so I couldn't.)

Thankfully, Assam's done the hard work of finding the numbers. And I was pretty close to right. Steph justifies herself just as much as Damian and Jason in terms of sales.

----------


## Assam

> Thanks! I knew Tim sold better than Steph (but not that much - just about 7k). But Jason seems like he's selling just about the same as Steph, and Damian is selling below where Steph was at issue 12 (28k). I like these guys, but if they deserve titles at those numbers, so does Steph.


Batgirl Vol. 3 #24: 22,695 (2011)
Batgirl Vol 1 #73: 26, 536 (2006) 
Red Robin #26: 26,939 (2011) 
Additionally, Convergence: Batgirl was one of the highest selling Convergence tie-ins. 

And Jason, Damian, Babs and Kate will likely all get their _next_ solos before any of the above do despite weaker, or in Steph and Tim's cases, similar performances.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batgirl Vol. 3 #24: 22,695 (2011)
> Batgirl Vol 1 #73: 26, 536 (2006) 
> Red Robin #26: 26,939 (2011) 
> Additionally, Convergence: Batgirl was one of the highest selling Convergence tie-ins. 
> 
> And Jason, Damian, Babs and Kate will likely all get their _next_ solos before any of the above do despite weaker, or in Steph and Tim's cases, similar performances.


Yup. You know I love Kate, but her solo's performance is dismal, and she's definitely getting another solo (or at least a team book) before Steph gets anything. This is just stupid, DC.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Event stories are 1) almost always trash, and 2) almost always sell like gangbusters. It's super depressing to people like me, who hate events usually. (Except for Action 1000. And I'm going to buy Tec 1000, no matter what.  )
> 
> Oh, dear. I don't think Shawn James has the kind of reach to make him representative of much more than himself, thankfully.
> 
> Willingham is the writer who wrote the Steph as Robin issues, and also wrote the issues where she got tortured to death. He's famous among Steph fans because he got really sick of being yelled at for killing her and was kind of a jerk in response (this is my take on it. Other people would tell you that he's just a terrible person, and killing Steph and being a jerk to her fans is part of him being a terrible person. I've never met him, though I did want to meet him last year, but he cancelled, so I couldn't.)
> 
> Thankfully, Assam's done the hard work of finding the numbers. And I was pretty close to right. Steph justifies herself just as much as Damian and Jason in terms of sales.


Well as the saying goes 90% of everything is garbage. the point of event stories I believe was to try and get people to try new titles but it does get overwhelming after a while. I tell you one of these days Marvel and DC should just write a a proper send off for their comics and close the book because epic stories often have great and definite endings.

You have no idea for a while I respected Shawn James because he was a creative but it became apparent that he was just a man with a barely functioning head. If Willingham wanted to keep Stephanie as Robin he can't be all bad there must have been some really bad reaction to Stephanie stealing Bruce's plans and starting the Gotham Gang War that rubbed people the wrong way. You know how crazy some fans can be.

Yeah but unfortunately in the current climate where Stephanie is hated her book might not last until issue 10.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well as the saying goes 90% of everything is garbage. the point of event stories I believe was to try and get people to try new titles but it does get overwhelming after a while. I tell you one of these days Marvel and DC should just write a a proper send off for their comics and close the book because epic stories often have great and definite endings.
> 
> You have no idea for a while I respected Shawn James because he was a creative but it became apparent that he was just a man with a barely functioning head. If Willingham wanted to keep Stephanie as Robin he can't be all bad there must have been some really bad reaction to Stephanie stealing Bruce's plans and starting the Gotham Gang War that rubbed people the wrong way. You know how crazy some fans can be.
> 
> Yeah but unfortunately in the current climate where Stephanie is hated her book might not last until issue 10.


I definitely think event fatigue is a thing - but I'm ALWAYS tired of events, so I'm not a good judge. (Though if you ever got an event where Steph was a main character, but didn't get killed - like War Games but without the torturing to death thing - I might be interested. Now that I think about it, though, Night of the Monster Men did have some big Steph parts, and I didn't like that...hmmm...)

Marvel and DC will never stop unless the entire market implodes. And even then, I don't think Batman and Spider-Man will go away.

I do think Willingham is a complicated case. And I believe him that he looked at sales and fan response and wanted to keep her - because there was a big bump in sales.

You might be surprised. Do you know what Steph's plotlines before she became Batgirl were? She spent the last 8 issues of Robin (under FabNic) actively sabotaging Tim as Robin and colluding with villains like Scarab (who got her fired when she was Robin!) and the General (currently also seen in today's Tec). Her actions led to the deaths of at least two children (though Tim also bears some of the blame). It was not a good time for Steph fans (though to be fair, we were riding on the high of Dixon bringing her back. And also this explains why I dislike FabNic so much.  :Smile:  ) And yet we got a solid solo series for just over two years out of it.

I think if we got a good midlist writer who loved Steph and wrote her a very sympathetic story, a Steph solo (or a duo or trio book with Steph as one of the leads) could work fine, even now. But it would be an uphill climb.

----------


## Assam

> You might be surprised. Do you know what Steph's plotlines before she became Batgirl were? She spent the last 8 issues of Robin (under FabNic) actively sabotaging Tim as Robin and colluding with villains like Scarab (who got her fired when she was Robin!) and the General (currently also seen in today's Tec). Her actions led to the deaths of at least two children (though Tim also bears some of the blame). It was not a good time for Steph fans (though to be fair, we were riding on the high of Dixon bringing her back. And also this explains why I dislike FabNic so much.  ) And yet we got a solid solo series for just over two years out of it.


Leaving aside some of the other factors like how this has been going on a lot longer than that and in a much more prominent book, the big difference is what allowed Steph's Batgirl book to do as well as it did, that being that it was a jumping on point.Batman Reborn got a LOT of people into comics or at least DC and I've seen several people state how Steph's book was their gateway drug. Even with any venom toward the character from Robin, even with the justified anger from Cass fans, she was able to succeed because her book wasn't reliant on the fans that were already around, but a whole new base. This isn't something she's likely to be able to take advantage of again.

----------


## millernumber1

> Leaving aside some of the other factors like how this has been going on a lot longer than that and in a much more prominent book, the big difference is what allowed Steph's Batgirl book to do as well as it did, that being that it was a jumping on point.Batman Reborn got a LOT of people into comics or at least DC and I've seen several people state how Steph's book was their gateway drug. Even with any venom toward the character from Robin, even with the justified anger from Cass fans, she was able to succeed because her book wasn't reliant on the fans that were already around, but a whole new base. This isn't something she's likely to be able to take advantage of again.


I think the real issue was the Batman RIP/Battle for the Cowl/Batman Reborn boost. Now, we're getting some shakeups in the Batfamily in June-August, but it's not undergoing anything close to that kind of push. All of the advertising and editorial energy seems to be in the BatCat wedding and the NOPE JUSTICE launch of Snyder on Justice League. So I think you're right, that the combination of Steph's negative reputation from a full year of frustration will be harder to come back from. That's why I hope that Steph gets a spot on a team with a fresh writer who cares about her (though I personally would be fine with Tynion continuing, but I don't think the rest of the fandom is okay with that) to get her on track towards popularity again.

The Batfamily will have another push, whether it's a Rebirth related thing at the end of Doomsday Clock, or something else. But they always have events.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I definitely think event fatigue is a thing - but I'm ALWAYS tired of events, so I'm not a good judge. (Though if you ever got an event where Steph was a main character, but didn't get killed - like War Games but without the torturing to death thing - I might be interested. Now that I think about it, though, Night of the Monster Men did have some big Steph parts, and I didn't like that...hmmm...)
> 
> Marvel and DC will never stop unless the entire market implodes. And even then, I don't think Batman and Spider-Man will go away.
> 
> I do think Willingham is a complicated case. And I believe him that he looked at sales and fan response and wanted to keep her - because there was a big bump in sales.
> 
> You might be surprised. Do you know what Steph's plotlines before she became Batgirl were? She spent the last 8 issues of Robin (under FabNic) actively sabotaging Tim as Robin and colluding with villains like Scarab (who got her fired when she was Robin!) and the General (currently also seen in today's Tec). Her actions led to the deaths of at least two children (though Tim also bears some of the blame). It was not a good time for Steph fans (though to be fair, we were riding on the high of Dixon bringing her back. And also this explains why I dislike FabNic so much.  ) And yet we got a solid solo series for just over two years out of it.
> 
> I think if we got a good midlist writer who loved Steph and wrote her a very sympathetic story, a Steph solo (or a duo or trio book with Steph as one of the leads) could work fine, even now. But it would be an uphill climb.


Well boredom is possible and event fatigue might just be boredom with a different name. Well maybe the parts with Stephanie in Night of the Monster Men were just not true to her character as you said you didn't like how she seemingly left behind her everywoman roots. 

True Marvel and DC will never stop but with how often they write epic events mainly to sell more books they should take a cue from the old stuff and write a story with a definite end as most great stories tend to have definite, satisfying endings. Because in some ways that's what makes great stories. Sure they'll probably sell all their properties to be spared from bankruptcy but I wonder who well handled they will be under new management?

Okay that does sound way worse than what happened to Stephanie under Tynion. It was a miracle that Stephanie recovered as a character or could even get a solo title at all and that she still had any fans left after War Games. It also sounds like Stephanie's character had survived worse she may still recover from this unfortunate set back. I think Chuck Dixon and Bryan Q. Miller are the only guys who could take on that job. Now if only DC was interested in courting them with the task.

----------


## Assam

> I think the real issue was the Batman RIP/Battle for the Cowl/Batman Reborn boost. Now, we're getting some shakeups in the Batfamily in June-August, but it's not undergoing anything close to that kind of push. All of the advertising and editorial energy seems to be in the BatCat wedding and the NOPE JUSTICE launch of Snyder on Justice League. So I think you're right, that the combination of Steph's negative reputation from a full year of frustration will be harder to come back from. That's why I hope that Steph gets a spot on a team with a fresh writer who cares about her (though I personally would be fine with Tynion continuing, but I don't think the rest of the fandom is okay with that) to get her on track towards popularity again.
> 
> The Batfamily will have another push, whether it's a Rebirth related thing at the end of Doomsday Clock, or something else. But they always have events.


The June solicits didn't give us the answers we were hoping for, but they did make things more interesting. 

- Cass is almost definitely going to the Outsiders. 
- Batgirl is doing filler...even moreso than what its usually doing given the new writer. 
- Tim and Steph seemingly won't be appearing in anything in June. 
- Beyond and Batwoman both really look like they could be on their last storylines, especially given their sales (Not to mention Jurgens' recent bad PR) 
- The Bensons' new project still hasn't been announced. 

So here's how I see it for Steph. While we're certainly getting a refreshed Batline, she isn't going to get a solo. I also can't see her just joining a random team on her own as she is now. If a new Young Justice book gets announced, I don't think she'll be there either, both because right off the bat that'd mean the book would have 5 white team members, both girls being blue eyed-blondes, not leaving much room for others, and because Tynion said we'd be finding out where another ONE of the Knights was landing soon and that's almost certainly going to be Tim. 

I think, in order of realism, her only bets right now are 1) Tim gets a solo and she's back to strictly being his supporting character, 2) Cass in Outsiders doesn't mean we aren't also getting a new Batgirl book with all 3, and 3) Cass gets a solo and Steph is a supporting character there.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well boredom is possible and event fatigue might just be boredom with a different name. Well maybe the parts with Stephanie in Night of the Monster Men were just not true to her character as you said you didn't like how she seemingly left behind her everywoman roots. 
> 
> True Marvel and DC will never stop but with how often they write epic events mainly to sell more books they should take a cue from the old stuff and write a story with a definite end as most great stories tend to have definite, satisfying endings. Because in some ways that's what makes great stories. Sure they'll probably sell all their properties to be spared from bankruptcy but I wonder who well handled they will be under new management?
> 
> Okay that does sound way worse than what happened to Stephanie under Tynion. It was a miracle that Stephanie recovered as a character or could even get a solo title at all and that she still had any fans left after War Games. It also sounds like Stephanie's character had survived worse she may still recover from this unfortunate set back. I think Chuck Dixon and Bryan Q. Miller are the only guys who could take on that job. Now if only DC was interested in courting them with the task.


Yeah, I didn't like Orlando's voice for Steph at all.

The problem with events is that they don't have endings. They just lead into the new status quo (like I fully expect Metal to do). I think things like Black Label and Ink and Zoom are better for that kind of thing, but they're also not floppies.

Steph has always bounced back, I just hope we can get a new writer who is top quality and loves Steph.




> The June solicits didn't give us the answers we were hoping for, but they did make things more interesting. 
> 
> - Cass is almost definitely going to the Outsiders. 
> - Batgirl is doing filler...even moreso than what its usually doing given the new writer. 
> - Tim and Steph seemingly won't be appearing in anything in June. 
> - Beyond and Batwoman both really look like they could be on their last storylines, especially given their sales (Not to mention Jurgens' recent bad PR) 
> - The Bensons' new project still hasn't been announced. 
> 
> So here's how I see it for Steph. While we're certainly getting a refreshed Batline, she isn't going to get a solo. I also can't see her just joining a random team on her own as she is now. If a new Young Justice book gets announced, I don't think she'll be there either, both because right off the bat that'd mean the book would have 5 white team members, both girls being blue eyed-blondes, not leaving much room for others, and because Tynion said we'd be finding out where another ONE of the Knights was landing soon and that's almost certainly going to be Tim. 
> ...


We're getting the softest of soft refreshes for the Batline. I am okay with Steph being a supporting character of either Tim or Cass (as long as they don't lie to her or knock her out all the time). I'm mostly just really frustrated.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, I didn't like Orlando's voice for Steph at all.
> 
> The problem with events is that they don't have endings. They just lead into the new status quo (like I fully expect Metal to do). I think things like Black Label and Ink and Zoom are better for that kind of thing, but they're also not floppies.
> 
> Steph has always bounced back, I just hope we can get a new writer who is top quality and loves Steph.


So it was good thing that Tynion came along wasn't it at least he had a better grasp of her character if he wasn't overwhelmed by the workload he would be praised as the man who gave Stephanie her fame back.

I know that but i mean if Marvel and DC love to write epic stories through event books they should consider writing an actual like all the other epics of old like the Odyssey or the story of Achilles. I'm sort of expecting Metal to lead to the creation of a means for writers to waive away errors like they did in Pre-Crisis. I know you aren't really into events but aren't you curious to what a Dark Multiverse version of Tim and Stephanie would look like? Them merged with a villain born from their worse nightmares. In a way i could see Stephanie becoming the new Cluemaster or even Black Mask in one of the Negative Earths. 

Well Bryan Hill could b eupt to the task of improving Stephanie as long as he knows that they are best friends.

----------


## millernumber1

> So it was good thing that Tynion came along wasn't it at least he had a better grasp of her character if he wasn't overwhelmed by the workload he would be praised as the man who gave Stephanie her fame back.
> 
> I know that but i mean if Marvel and DC love to write epic stories through event books they should consider writing an actual like all the other epics of old like the Odyssey or the story of Achilles. I'm sort of expecting Metal to lead to the creation of a means for writers to waive away errors like they did in Pre-Crisis. I know you aren't really into events but aren't you curious to what a Dark Multiverse version of Tim and Stephanie would look like? Them merged with a villain born from their worse nightmares. In a way i could see Stephanie becoming the new Cluemaster or even Black Mask in one of the Negative Earths. 
> 
> Well Bryan Hill could b eupt to the task of improving Stephanie as long as he knows that they are best friends.


Well, I think so.  :Smile:  I still really like Tynion, and I like Tynion's Steph for the most part. But Steph is obviously the lowest priority for him, sadly.

I would be interested in a Dark Multiverse version of Tim and Steph - but they're probably dead, or evil Crow boys for Batman Who Laughs. A Steph Cluemaster...that would be very interesting indeed! And a Purple Mask (or Violet Mask?) would be terrifying!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I think so.  I still really like Tynion, and I like Tynion's Steph for the most part. But Steph is obviously the lowest priority for him, sadly.
> 
> I would be interested in a Dark Multiverse version of Tim and Steph - but they're probably dead, or evil Crow boys for Batman Who Laughs. A Steph Cluemaster...that would be very interesting indeed! And a Purple Mask (or Violet Mask?) would be terrifying!


Well given the teasing involved with panels showing Stephanie's tenure as Batgirl it looks like she just became his top priority. And maybe the cover of the issue after that one was deliberately cdone to conceal the outcome to determine whether or not Stephanie gets redeemed.

And I could see Tim merged with Anarky or Lady Shiva. Stephanie could be Cluemaster and she would probably be a lot better at being a villain than her father she plants clues but her clue spoil anyone's efforts to catch her. As Purple Mask I could see it Stephanie emerges from the Gotham Gang War having killed Black Mask and takes control of his gang and rules Gotham.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well given the teasing involved with panels showing Stephanie's tenure as Batgirl it looks like she just became his top priority. And maybe the cover of the issue after that one was deliberately cdone to conceal the outcome to determine whether or not Stephanie gets redeemed.
> 
> And I could see Tim merged with Anarky or Lady Shiva. Stephanie could be Cluemaster and she would probably be a lot better at being a villain than her father she plants clues but her clue spoil anyone's efforts to catch her. As Purple Mask I could see it Stephanie emerges from the Gotham Gang War having killed Black Mask and takes control of his gang and rules Gotham.


I don't think so - Cass and Batman are also on the cover. I think she has upped priority in that issue, but since she's not on the last issue's cover, I am VERY DUBIOUS.

Tim and the General, also.  A small dark part of me would really like to see Purple Mask kill Black Mask... (There's a great fic about Steph becoming the Red Hood that is really interesting.)

----------


## Assam

> But Steph is obviously the lowest priority for him, sadly.


Nah, pretty sure that is and always has been Luke and JPV.  (I'd understand if you forgot about them though.  :Stick Out Tongue:  )




> And I could see Tim merged with Anarky or Lady Shiva.


Really don't see why. Lonnie isn't a villain (unless you're talking about Ulysses in which case, yeah, he's Tim's main villain) and Shiva is Cass's main villain.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think so - Cass and Batman are also on the cover. I think she has upped priority in that issue, but since she's not on the last issue's cover, I am VERY DUBIOUS.
> 
> Tim and the General, also.  A small dark part of me would really like to see Purple Mask kill Black Mask... (There's a great fic about Steph becoming the Red Hood that is really interesting.)


With Cass it's kind of a forgone conclusion especially based on the interviews with Bryan Hill that she will stay. And somehow even without the interviews I am certain Cass would stay. Stephanie's currently ambiguous status might hint at a larger role for that specific issue that Tynion can't disclosed and unlike Snyder and Williamson he has not said much about what he's up to so there' hope somewhere.

What sets the General apart from Anarky anyway? I'll bet somewhere in the Dark Multiverse there's  Stephanie standing over Black Mask with a smoking gun in her hand. The Dark Multiverse is a place of nightmares so if Stephanie dreamed of killing him i'm sure it exists.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Really don't see why. Lonnie isn't a villain (unless you're talking about Ulysses in which case, yeah, he's Tim's main villain) and Shiva is Cass's main villain.


It tends to depnd on the writer doesn't it? And okay maybe i was reaching abit in regards to merging Shiva with Tim but I can bet Cass might have had a nightmare where she does become her mother.

----------


## Assam

> What sets the General apart from Anarky anyway?


The General, Ulysses, ended briefly becoming Anarky during Red Robin, but that aside, they're completely different characters. Ulysses is a straight up villain no matter  the incarnation while, as originally written by Alan Grant, Lonnie is an anti-hero at _worst_.




> It tends to depnd on the writer doesn't it?


The only people who write Lonnie as a villain are ones who fundamentally don't understand the character.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nah, pretty sure that is and always has been Luke and JPV.  (I'd understand if you forgot about them though.  )


No, I love Jean Paul and Luke! But they have TWO covers in the upcoming arc. I'm pretty sure that's more of a priority. (Plus, their arc was awesome, even with Zatanna and Bruce eating a lot of it.)




> With Cass it's kind of a forgone conclusion especially based on the interviews with Bryan Hill that she will stay. And somehow even without the interviews I am certain Cass would stay. Stephanie's currently ambiguous status might hint at a larger role for that specific issue that Tynion can't disclosed and unlike Snyder and Williamson he has not said much about what he's up to so there' hope somewhere.
> 
> What sets the General apart from Anarky anyway? I'll bet somewhere in the Dark Multiverse there's  Stephanie standing over Black Mask with a smoking gun in her hand. The Dark Multiverse is a place of nightmares so if Stephanie dreamed of killing him i'm sure it exists.


Anarky and the General are totally different. Different characters (Lonnie vs. Ulysses), and different goals. Lonnie is all about destroying the system, Ulysses is all about putting himself at the top of the system.

Steph got so close to killing him (something that is infinitely frustrating about War Games is how incoherent her story is. Like...what were the writers even trying to "teach" her or the readers?)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The General, Ulysses, ended briefly becoming Anarky during Red Robin, but that aside, they're completely different characters. Ulysses is a straight up villain no matter  the incarnation while, as originally written by Alan Grant, Lonnie is an anti-hero at _worst_.


I remember that he did and began hunting down Tim if he wants to be called the General Ulysses definitely needed to use his brain more back then.  He didn't need to become Joker-lite. Smart people like Tim need smarter opponents to be challenged.





> The only people who write Lonnie as a villain are ones who fundamentally don't understand the character.


And I believe Lonnie Machin's original goal was to cause anarchy as a mean to force the government to do more than they were doing he could have been an interesting challenge for Batman as well Tim.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Anarky and the General are totally different. Different characters (Lonnie vs. Ulysses), and different goals. Lonnie is all about destroying the system, Ulysses is all about putting himself at the top of the system.
> 
> Steph got so close to killing him (something that is infinitely frustrating about War Games is how incoherent her story is. Like...what were the writers even trying to "teach" her or the readers?)


Compared to the other Batman villain Anarky and the General are pretty low level players if Tim ever got a solo again they should be his enemies as both sides try to make their mark in Gotham or the world. Although in the case of Anarky he could be an occasional ally to Tim depending on the circumstances. 

I don't know maybe never compromise on following Batman's principles even in the face of Armageddon? Because it will make Stephanie like the rest of the criminals they punch out every night?

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know maybe never compromise on following Batman's principles even in the face of Armageddon? Because it will make Stephanie like the rest of the criminals they punch out every night?


It was very confusing, though. Steph was tortured nearly to death, and then she makes this speech about how she can't kill Black Mask because she's finally realized that being a hero isn't a game (after over 10 years, she hasn't realized that it's not a game?) (or that she could shoot him in the arm or something?), and then Black Mask takes the gun away and shoots her. It's such a twisted and contradictory moral.

----------


## Chickfighter

> Steph got so close to killing him (something that is infinitely frustrating about War Games is how incoherent her story is. Like...what were the writers even trying to "teach" her or the readers?)





> I don't know maybe never compromise on following Batman's principles even in the face of Armageddon? Because it will make Stephanie like the rest of the criminals they punch out every night?



If I'd had anything to do with it it would have been a repudiation of Batman. Steph would have killed Black Mask and, whether she died or not, would have told Batman that she did what had to done, something he has never been able to do with say the Joker. That it was self defense in any case. Thus she would have demonstrated she had moved on beyond feeling the need to get his approval. And Batman would have been taught the lesson that he is not the Batgod he seems to think he is.

Heh, did I say something about moving on. I guess I still haven't. War Games was one of the most despicably unsatisfying stories ever brought to comics. Sorry. Rant over. Checking back out.  :Wink:

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## Chickfighter

> It was very confusing, though. Steph was tortured nearly to death, and then she makes this speech about how she can't kill Black Mask because she's finally realized that being a hero isn't a game (after over 10 years, she hasn't realized that it's not a game?) (or that she could shoot him in the arm or something?), and then Black Mask takes the gun away and shoots her. It's such a twisted and contradictory moral.


Precisely. It's incoherent and thematically heinous, but "we need an excuse to torture and kill a steadfast young woman trying to do the right thing so..."

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## millernumber1

> If I'd had anything to do with it it would have been a repudiation of Batman. Steph would have killed Black Mask and, whether she died or not, would have told Batman that she did what had to done, something he has never been able to do with say the Joker. That it was self defense in any case. Thus she would have demonstrated she had moved on beyond feeling the need to get his approval. And Batman would have been taught the lesson that he is not the Batgod he seems to think he is.
> 
> Heh, did I say something about moving on. I guess I still haven't. War Games was one of the most despicably unsatisfying stories ever brought to comics. Sorry. Rant over. Checking back out.


I have no real desire for Steph to kill villains, because I don't really want to have to rehabilitate her like they had to for Cass and Jason. It's going to be bad enough fixing what Tynion has done with the best of intentions.

But an AU Steph just burning Black Mask to a crisp would be very nice.




> Precisely. It's incoherent and thematically heinous, but "we need an excuse to torture and kill a steadfast young woman trying to do the right thing so..."


The thing is, there were people who were trying to make it better. I really liked Devin Grayson's contributions, and her writing of Steph in the 12 cent special was one of the first times I noticed Steph positively (I really disliked her in Batgirl #27 - she seemed whiny and incompetent, and that first impression is why I still hate that issue of Batgirl, despite all the love it gets). Grayson set up a real desire in me to see Steph triumph and redeem herself, but instead, they just killed her off disgustingly.

I also kinda like the whole idea of a War Games plan like the one Steph set in motion, but that was so poorly handled. It goes wrong from the beginning, but Batman can still recognize it? Like...that makes zero sense.

----------


## Chickfighter

I keep going back to the bit where Steph seemingly has the chance to save herself by killing Black Mask and hesitates because of Batman's edict. Just no, no, no. Of course a hero should not kill needlessly, but as self-defense or defense of innocents it is another matter entirely. As any self-defense coach will tell you if it's you or him you cannot hold back.

----------


## millernumber1

> I keep going back to the bit where Steph seemingly has the chance to save herself by killing Black Mask and hesitates because of Batman's edict. Just no, no, no. Of course a hero should not kill needlessly, but as self-defense or defense of innocents it is another matter entirely. As any self-defense coach will tell you if it's you or him you cannot hold back.


It's just so incoherent and twisted. And she doesn't even shoot to wound, which would at least have helped. It's so STUPID, it burns and makes me rage. I read that and I'm just trying to figure out what the message is. And the only one I can see is "Steph deserves to die because she's an idiot."

Why is that a good message?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It was very confusing, though. Steph was tortured nearly to death, and then she makes this speech about how she can't kill Black Mask because she's finally realized that being a hero isn't a game (after over 10 years, she hasn't realized that it's not a game?) (or that she could shoot him in the arm or something?), and then Black Mask takes the gun away and shoots her. It's such a twisted and contradictory moral.


Well Willingham sure sent the weirdest message ever if she realised after ten years (seriously she and Tim have been at it for ten years?) the most she should have done was do more than shoot Black Mask in the arm. He would be a lifeless corpse because shooting him in the arm or leg is something of a fallacy but then again I've seen a teen in the body of a ten year old do such a feat. Shoot the hostage in the legs just barely short of wounding the hostage to make him or her dead weight. But can you imagine Stephanie having such inhuman aim?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Willingham sure sent the weirdest message ever if she realised after ten years (seriously she and Tim have been at it for ten years?) the most she should have done was do more than shoot Black Mask in the arm. He would be a lifeless corpse because shooting him in the arm or leg is something of a fallacy but then then I've a teens in the body of a ten year old do such a feat. Shoot the hostage in the legs just barely short of wounding the hostage to make him or her dead weight. But can you imagine Stephanie having such inhuman aim?


Steph had been around for over 12 years in 2005 (1992-2005), but in real time, she's probably been a hero for about 3-4 years. Tim is supposedly around 12-13 when he starts, and at this point, he's about 16, and Steph is about a year older than he is (and she was pregnant around 16).

I know that shooting in the arm is silly talk with real guns, but this is comics. Also, Steph was inches away from Mask at the time, and standing over him. I think she could have hit his arm or leg (but leg has the brachial artery, and he could bleed out too quickly - not that I care about him, but I'd rather Steph not be a killer. Though an accidental killer could be an interesting story. Much better than tortured to death.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph had been around for over 12 years in 2005 (1992-2005), but in real time, she's probably been a hero for about 3-4 years. Tim is supposedly around 12-13 when he starts, and at this point, he's about 16, and Steph is about a year older than he is (and she was pregnant around 16).
> 
> I know that shooting in the arm is silly talk with real guns, but this is comics. Also, Steph was inches away from Mask at the time, and standing over him. I think she could have hit his arm or leg (but leg has the brachial artery, and he could bleed out too quickly - not that I care about him, but I'd rather Steph not be a killer. Though an accidental killer could be an interesting story. Much better than tortured to death.)


Tim and Dick have a lot in common a lot aside form being one of the sunnier members of the Bat-family their major love interests are all older than them. Yeah that made no sense four years of going around endangering herself and Stephanie now realises she has to take this seriously or she and many others will die? What was inside Willingham's head that time? Was it orders from the top to kill Stephanie?

Yeah this is comics but if you want Stephanie to remain an everyman type character well just think as Black Mask tries to grab the gun she reacts quickly enough and fires a shot that richohets off the walls and hist Black mask. So yeah let's go with that and a story about dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in teens.

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## millernumber1

> Tim and Dick have a lot in common a lot aside form being one of the sunnier members of the Bat-family their major love interests are all older than them. Yeah that made no sense four years of going around endangering herself and Stephanie now realises she has to take this seriously or she and many others will die? What was inside Willingham's head that time? Was it orders from the top to kill Stephanie?
> 
> Yeah this is comics but if you want Stephanie to remain an everyman type character well just think as Black Mask tries to grab the gun she reacts quickly enough and fires a shot that richohets off the walls and hist Black mask. So yeah let's go with that and a story about dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in teens.


It was orders from the top to kill her. I have never, in 13 years, found someone who wants to say, "I made the decision to kill Steph." Didio comes closest, since he had the power to say, "Okay, we'll change the plan", but he's always said that the plan to kill Steph was in place before he came to DC, and he just supervised. Willingham says that he wanted to change it, Grayson and Horrocks said they wanted to change it. Andersen Gabrych hasn't given many interviews, but the few I've found seem to indicate that he was one of the people who actually was in favor of the idea, which is why I really dislike Gabrych (despite the love he gets from Cass fans for writing the end of Cass's Batgirl series, though thankfully I saw a great tumblr post recently about those last Cass issues explaining why they are so bad: https://whothefuckiscassandracain.tu...tgirl-vol-1-73)

So basically my conspiracy theory is that it was Gabrych and Batman group editor Bob Harras who made the decision to kill Steph. I have no hard evidence on this, but that's my deduction based on years of interviews and reading.

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## Assam

> Horrocks said they wanted to change it.


I think Horrocks was against it more than anyone else. He's all but directly said that its what drove him off from mainstream comics, and he HAS directly said, "It was one of the most depressing weeks of my life, because we basically spent the whole week in this horrible office planning how to kill this poor teenage girl who I really liked, I thought she was a great character and she was one of the few friends that my character had". 




> despite the love he gets from Cass fans for writing the end of Cass's Batgirl series, though thankfully I saw a great tumblr post recently about those last Cass issues explaining why they are so bad


I may enjoy a few aspects of it, but I've never been a fan of the back half of the Gabrych run and most seem to be in the same boat. It's the first half of the run with her in Bludhaven and Brenda that fans love.

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## millernumber1

> I think Horrocks was against it more than anyone else. He's all but directly said that its what drove him off from mainstream comics, and he HAS directly said, "It was one of the most depressing weeks of my life, because we basically spent the whole week in this horrible office planning how to kill this poor teenage girl who I really liked, I thought she was a great character and she was one of the few friends that my character had". 
> 
> I may enjoy a few aspects of it, but I've never been a fan of the back half of the Gabrych run and most seem to be in the same boat. It's the first half of the run with her in Bludhaven and Brenda that fans love.


Horrocks definitely (though I think Grayson was probably about the same, since her stuff was so sympathetic to Steph, and Horrocks mentioned her in that interview as well).

Hmm. Fair enough about Brenda. But people were really happy in the Steph tags on Tumblr a couple years ago when someone suggested a Steph series by Gabrych, and that really horrified me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It was orders from the top to kill her. I have never, in 13 years, found someone who wants to say, "I made the decision to kill Steph." Didio comes closest, since he had the power to say, "Okay, we'll change the plan", but he's always said that the plan to kill Steph was in place before he came to DC, and he just supervised. Willingham says that he wanted to change it, Grayson and Horrocks said they wanted to change it. Andersen Gabrych hasn't given many interviews, but the few I've found seem to indicate that he was one of the people who actually was in favor of the idea, which is why I really dislike Gabrych (despite the love he gets from Cass fans for writing the end of Cass's Batgirl series, though thankfully I saw a great tumblr post recently about those last Cass issues explaining why they are so bad: https://whothefuckiscassandracain.tu...tgirl-vol-1-73)
> 
> So basically my conspiracy theory is that it was Gabrych and Batman group editor Bob Harras who made the decision to kill Steph. I have no hard evidence on this, but that's my deduction based on years of interviews and reading.


Wow you've been busy researching this issue so Didio may not have been responsible for killing Stephanie but at least DC listened to the outrage it generated and brought her back from the grave and saved Leslie Thompkin's character to boot. And wow that ending did make me wonder whether there's a drug called Grant Morrison that writers take when they write horrible stories and endings. Because sometimes his stuff feels like it was written on drugs. I've seen worse endings though. If there was a good point I can give about that ending for Cass though it's that she looks good for a runaway.

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## millernumber1

> Wow you've been busy researching this issue so Didio may not have been responsible for killing Stephanie but at least DC listened to the outrage it generated and brought her back from the grave and saved Leslie Thompkin's character to boot. And wow that ending did make me wonder whether there's a drug called Grant Morrison that writers take when they write horrible stories and endings. Because sometimes his stuff feels like it was written on drugs. I've seen worse endings though. If there was a good point I can give about that ending for Cass though it's that she looks good for a runaway.


Well. War Games happened right at the beginning of my serious comics reading career, so it's pretty formative for the way I look at events. DC took well over two years to bring Steph back, and if it weren't for the happy accident of Steph's Batgirl series, she likely would have become a new villain under FabNic's hands.

Haha, nice shade at Morrison. I can't fully hate Morrison, because he gave Cass Black Bat, and also wrote a pretty great Steph story (Batigirl: Stephanie Brown volume 2 on sale now!  :Smile:  ).

The one thing I liked about the ending of Batgirl is seeing that Steph was important to Cass so she saw her when dying, but it was still really underwhelming.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well. War Games happened right at the beginning of my serious comics reading career, so it's pretty formative for the way I look at events. DC took well over two years to bring Steph back, and if it weren't for the happy accident of Steph's Batgirl series, she likely would have become a new villain under FabNic's hands.
> 
> Haha, nice shade at Morrison. I can't fully hate Morrison, because he gave Cass Black Bat, and also wrote a pretty great Steph story (Batigirl: Stephanie Brown volume 2 on sale now!  ).
> 
> The one thing I liked about the ending of Batgirl is seeing that Steph was important to Cass so she saw her when dying, but it was still really underwhelming.


Fabian Nicieza is an interesting animal he can craft some interesting things to take a character to the next level like the mystery of Lynx II which honestly was should have been at the centre of his Red Robin run. I know I'm disappointed to have never figured out whether was she an ally or enemy to Tim. But he can go off the rails and write weird and nasty things like Tim's close encounter with rape and Tim steadily becoming more Batman-lite, even creating a hit list for allies who may go rogue.

And I will be amazed if the Morrison drug actually exist. And the other thing I can't hate Morrisonn for is creating Damian Wayne his introduction was written on drugs too but his creation allowed Stephanie to have someone she can have a fun dynamic against.

And how underwhelming was  that scene?

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## millernumber1

> Fabian Nicieza is an interesting animal he can craft some interesting things to take a character to the next level like the mystery of Lynx II which honestly was should have been at the centre of his Red Robin run. I know I'm disappointed to have never figured out whether was she an ally or enemy to Tim. But he can go off the rails and write weird and nasty things like Tim's close encounter with rape and Tim steadily becoming more Batman-lite, even creating a hit list for allies who may go rogue.
> 
> And I will be amazed if the Morrison drug actually exist. And the other thing I can't hate Morrisonn for is creating Damian Wayne his introduction was written on drugs too but his creation allowed Stephanie to have someone she can have a fun dynamic against.
> 
> And how underwhelming was  that scene?


FabNic...ah. I know you're a big fan of Lynx II (or III, I get confused), but I really dislike how she fits into all the teen girls throwing themselves at Tim.

Totally agree - I may dislike some of the effects of Damian's creation, but I think on the whole, he's a pretty cool character, and Batgirl and Robin are an amazing duo when it's him and Steph! Kinda bummed that Morrison didn't use Damian along with Bruce and Steph in his Batman, Inc story of the two of them.

I'm mostly talking about how the reveal of Cass's mother, and their final confrontation, were all really underwhelming and disatisfying. The Steph vision scene was actually one of the better things about those last issues.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> FabNic...ah. I know you're a big fan of Lynx II (or III, I get confused), but I really dislike how she fits into all the teen girls throwing themselves at Tim.
> 
> Totally agree - I may dislike some of the effects of Damian's creation, but I think on the whole, he's a pretty cool character, and Batgirl and Robin are an amazing duo when it's him and Steph! Kinda bummed that Morrison didn't use Damian along with Bruce and Steph in his Batman, Inc story of the two of them.
> 
> I'm mostly talking about how the reveal of Cass's mother, and their final confrontation, were all really underwhelming and disatisfying. The Steph vision scene was actually one of the better things about those last issues.


Well technically the Lynx Tim was dealing with is actually the third one the first Lynx was simply a henchman while the second one was a gang boss just like her successor. You may not like her because of that  but there's no denying that Lynx III was an interesting mystery that drove Tim crazy and I would not say no to seeing her again. Despite wanting them to be a couple I can sort of see Tim and Lynx III parting ways but not before sharing one last kiss at the airport.

I am glad that you do agree with me about Damian funny thing is he also comes from the same mould as Cass no wonder he was so interested her. Exactly and I would kill for a return of Stephanie and Damian's Pre-52 friendship it will be one of the things that will be sorely missed from the Post-Crisis. What was Stephanie doing in Batman Inc?

Well it was pretty obvious wasn't it that Lady Shiva was Cass's mother? How did you find their confrontation disatisfying anyway?

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## millernumber1

> Well technically the Lynx Tim was dealing with is actually the third one the first Lynx was simply a henchman while the second one was a gang boss just like her successor. You may not like her because of that  but there's no denying that Lynx III was an interesting mystery that drove Tim crazy and I would not say no to seeing her again. Despite wanting them to be a couple I can sort of see Tim and Lynx III parting ways but not before sharing one last kiss at the airport.
> 
> I am glad that you do agree with me about Damian funny thing is he also comes from the same mould as Cass no wonder he was so interested her. Exactly and I would kill for a return of Stephanie and Damian's Pre-52 friendship it will be one of the things that will be sorely missed from the Post-Crisis. What was Stephanie doing in Batman Inc?
> 
> Well it was pretty obvious wasn't it that Lady Shiva was Cass's mother? How did you find their confrontation disatisfying anyway?


I think it could have been interesting, but the whole stripping and then making out thing was really obnoxious. But yeah, there's a good story in there.

I do think that the similarity between Cass and Damian's backstories is frustrating, but I like both characters.

I'm currently checking the announcements about the Justice League books from Wonder Con, and so far, we don't have a sighting of Steph. Cass will likely be on the Outsiders book, though, since they've confirmed Hill will be on a book spinning off of his Tec run.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think it could have been interesting, but the whole stripping and then making out thing was really obnoxious. But yeah, there's a good story in there.
> 
> I do think that the similarity between Cass and Damian's backstories is frustrating, but I like both characters.
> 
> I'm currently checking the announcements about the Justice League books from Wonder Con, and so far, we don't have a sighting of Steph. Cass will likely be on the Outsiders book, though, since they've confirmed Hill will be on a book spinning off of his Tec run.


If you say so it would probably have done better if they left out the stripping part and even though it was part of this weird teen boy fantasy that Nicieza was writing you have to admit the romance part added a certain spiciness to trying to find out who she really was. Sure Damian and Cass were created by the League for similar purposes but it helped that they were set apart by their personalities and the manner of their upbringing. Damian had a more spoiled life while Cass' one was filled with lots of abuse but both came out better than expected. Wow that's unfortunate fingers crossed though that there will be an announcement that talks a bout Stephanie other than that panel of her as Batgirl. Tynion must be working on something special to be so mum about it.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you say so it would probably have done better if they left out the stripping part and even though it was part of this weird teen boy fantasy that Nicieza was writing you have to admit the romance part added a certain spiciness to trying to find out who she really was. Sure Damian and Cass were created by the League for similar purposes but it helped that they were set apart by their personalities and the manner of their upbringing. Damian had a more spoiled life while Cass' one was filled with lots of abuse but both came out better than expected. Wow that's unfortunate fingers crossed though that there will be an announcement that talks a bout Stephanie other than that panel of her as Batgirl. Tynion must be working on something special to be so mum about it.


I like romance. But I don't like players, and I especially don't see Tim as a player, and I feel like FabNic really wanted to add a player aspect to Tim's character in Red Robin.

Or Tynion has no power left in Gotham and all he can do is work with Hill, who doesn't seem to have an interest in Steph.  :Frown:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I like romance. But I don't like players, and I especially don't see Tim as a player, and I feel like FabNic really wanted to add a player aspect to Tim's character in Red Robin.
> 
> Or Tynion has no power left in Gotham and all he can do is work with Hill, who doesn't seem to have an interest in Steph.


It sure didn't suit Tim Nicieza's run had some solid ideas sure but the one I never liked was Tim becoming more Batman-lite and the player aspect seemed to part of that plan. And to top it all of Tim had to deal with his liking for Tam that he wants to but fears to act on completely. Still what is a little odd about Tim is that his hormones don't control him a lot compared to Conner and Bart I in a way found it amusing that meeting Lynx III brought out his hormones more. Maybe once Hill leaves Detective the new guy will take on Tim and Stephanie and given his track record I don't think Tomasi is the man for the job. He's better off writing Super Sons which i hope will be announced. Tynion has announced one of his plans and that's Justice League Dark but Stephanie is not on the line up.

----------


## millernumber1

> It sure didn't suit Tim Nicieza's run had some solid ideas sure but the one I never liked was Tim becoming more Batman-lite and the player aspect seemed to part of that plan. And to top it all of Tim had to deal with his liking for Tam that he wants to but fears to act on completely. Still what is a little odd about Tim is that his hormones don't control him a lot compared to Conner and Bart I in a way found it amusing that meeting Lynx III brought out his hormones more. Maybe once Hill leaves Detective the new guy will take on Tim and Stephanie and given his track record I don't think Tomasi is the man for the job. He's better off writing Super Sons which i hope will be announced. Tynion has announced one of his plans and that's Justice League Dark but Stephanie is not on the line up.


Well, I love Steph to death, but I don't think ANY of the Robins belong on the League. I think she certainly would be good with a Titans book, though.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I love Steph to death, but I don't think ANY of the Robins belong on the League. I think she certainly would be good with a Titans book, though.


What about Dick he led the Justice League as Batman. So far Stephanie is not on either Titans book but skethces for Cassie Sandsmark and Conner Kent are out with a new player in the middle.

----------


## millernumber1

> What about Dick he led the Justice League as Batman. So far Stephanie is not on either Titans book but skethces for Cassie Sandsmark and Conner Kent are out with a new player in the middle.


Only as Batman.  :Smile: 

Yeah. I guess I'll just have to wait and be sad.

On the other hand, Azrael on Justice League Odyssey and Tynion on Justice League Dark with Zatanna are both pretty exciting to me.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Only as Batman. 
> 
> Yeah. I guess I'll just have to wait and be sad.
> 
> On the other hand, Azrael on Justice League Odyssey and Tynion on Justice League Dark with Zatanna are both pretty exciting to me.


Cheer up like I said Stephanie's character has survived worse and even though it took two years she still came back and recovered enough to get a solo book. I am more concerned for where Donna Troy, Arsenal, Raven, Tempest, Omen, Bumblee, Mal, and Wally West I will go to.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cheer up like I said Stephanie's character has survived worse and even though it took two years she still came back and recovered enough to get a solo book. I am more concerned for where Donna Troy, Arsenal, Raven, Tempest, Omen, Bumblee, Mal, and Wally West I will go to.


Steph has come back from the actual dead and from being completely erased from existence, so I know she'll be back. But I'm still sad.

(Are you a Titans reader?)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph has come back from the actual dead and from being completely erased from existence, so I know she'll be back. But I'm still sad.
> 
> (Are you a Titans reader?)


Stephanie was nearly erased from existence? When? Yeah I am but I am disappointed by how both runs went they held such promise only to be derailed by incompetent writing is there anyone in DC who can write a team book besides Tynion and Priest? Peter David could be a fine choice but he's not coming back yet he's not doing so hot over at Marvel.

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie was nearly erased from existence? When? Yeah I am but I am disappointed by how both runs went they held such promise only to be derailed by incompetent writing is there anyone in DC who can write a team book besides Tynion and Priest? Peter David could be a fine choice but he's not coming back yet he's not doing so hot over at Marvel.


No, Steph was erased from existence with the n52. The new version of Steph is a brand new start - she doesn't have any of her history.

Well, we're about to see if Williamson and Snyder can write a team book.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> is there anyone in DC who can write a team book besides Tynion and Priest?


Read New Super-Man and the Justice League of China. Gene Luen-Yang is a genius writer and as far as team dynamics go, the JLC's are the best DC's had on the shelves since Simone's original Secret Six run.

Also, IMO, Tynion's proven that he's _not_ very good at writing a team book.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No, Steph was erased from existence with the n52. The new version of Steph is a brand new start - she doesn't have any of her history.
> 
> Well, we're about to see if Williamson and Snyder can write a team book.


Oh yeah yet despite Didio dislike for Stephanie he actually brought her back in the New 52 what made him cave in I wonder? Snyder was already writing the Justice League in Dark Nights: Metal has he proven that he can write a team book from that?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Read New Super-Man and the Justice League of China. Gene Luen-Yang is a genius writer and as far as team dynamics go, the JLC's are the best DC's had on the shelves since Simone's original Secret Six run.
> 
> Also, IMO, Tynion's proven that he's _not_ very good at writing a team book.


I did read the New Super-Man and I did like what I saw even though I was against the book mainly because I don't quite fancy the idea of Chinese superheroes. I prefer to see Chinese martial arts and fantasy stories. Just to be clear I am Chinese but I am a weird one. Maybe DC should put Gene Luen-Yang on another team book but Mark Waid seemed unattached tot he character he was working on in Avengers. Will Yang fall into the same trap?

----------


## Assam

> I did read the New Super-Man and I did like what I saw even though I was against the book mainly because I don't quite fancy the idea of Chinese superheroes. I prefer to see Chinese *martial arts and fantasy stories.*


I think you should give it another chance then. The Wonder-Woman of China and the Aqua-Man of North Korea are both based on mythology and Kenan's power sets are based in Chinese philosophy. 




> Maybe DC should put Gene Luen-Yang on another team book but Mark Waid seemed unattached tot he character he was working on in Avengers. Will Yang fall into the same trap?


I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think you should give it another chance then. The Wonder-Woman of China and the Aqua-Man of North Korea are both based on mythology and Kenan's power sets are based in Chinese philosophy.


I am still reading it actually the other thing holding me back was my dislike for them appearing to be knock-offs their Western counterparts but that ended as well..





> I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


I mean if they give Yang a team book but it has characters he isn't all that interested in working on a problem that Mark Waid seems to be experiencing over at Marvel can he turn out a good quality book?

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah yet despite Didio dislike for Stephanie he actually brought her back in the New 52 what made him cave in I wonder? Snyder was already writing the Justice League in Dark Nights: Metal has he proven that he can write a team book from that?


Tynion got Snyder to convince Didio to bring her back once Snyder had enough power to make DC do whatever he wanted. Didio would have been happy to let Steph remain erased forever. (If someone has information to the contrary, I'd be happy to change my opinion, but nothing I've seen from Didio makes me think his view of Steph is anything other than "she doesn't sell.")

Snyder's writing of Dark Knights: Metal proves that he can write a confusing mess, nothing more.  :Wink: 

As for Tynion - I know he's had some stumbles, but I will still argue quite firmly that he's written a really good and fun team book.

----------


## millernumber1

Welp, Bensons' project: Green Arrow. That is good news for possible Kate Spencer: Manhunter fans (which includes me), but it does mean they're out of Gotham, which means that Steph is still without a likely home.

----------


## Frontier

> Welp, Bensons' project: Green Arrow. That is good news for possible Kate Spencer: Manhunter fans (which includes me), but it does mean they're out of Gotham, which means that Steph is still without a likely home.


Seems like she and Luke might be two Knights that are the most unaccounted for when Tynion leaves.

----------


## millernumber1

> Seems like she and Luke might be two Knights that are the most unaccounted for when Tynion leaves.


Yup. Though Tim is weirdly not accounted for, at least I can't find any reference to him in any of the June projects or beyond.

HOWEVER: Jean-Paul is probably the least high profile of the Knights right now, so there's hope. Maybe?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Tynion got Snyder to convince Didio to bring her back once Snyder had enough power to make DC do whatever he wanted. Didio would have been happy to let Steph remain erased forever. (If someone has information to the contrary, I'd be happy to change my opinion, but nothing I've seen from Didio makes me think his view of Steph is anything other than "she doesn't sell.")
> 
> Snyder's writing of Dark Knights: Metal proves that he can write a confusing mess, nothing more. 
> 
> As for Tynion - I know he's had some stumbles, but I will still argue quite firmly that he's written a really good and fun team book.
> 
> Welp, Bensons' project: Green Arrow. That is good news for possible Kate Spencer: Manhunter fans (which includes me), but it does mean they're out of Gotham, which means that Steph is still without a likely home.


How unusual yet Tynion never got to use her often instead created Harper Row as a replacement for Stephnie AwesomeCon can't come soon enough to at least know how great her role is in Detective Comics. It does seem weird that Didio seems blind to how much money Stephanie solo comic raked in the past. He's one stubborn guy even though he let Rebirth come out to at least rectify some of the issues of the New 52. But you said Stephanie wasn't a big priority to Tynion yet he went through a lot trouble to bring her back unusual.

What's funny is that Snyder's writing of Dark Nights: Metal didn't confuse me for one thing as I had not trouble following every issue.

Well there is always Tynion's other project that he is being quite mum about as well to announce what will happen to Stephanie might spoil the ending of the issue involving Stephanie so maybe she'll just remain in Detective Comics if Bryan Hill and Tynion aren't going to use her.

----------


## millernumber1

> How unusual yet Tynion never got to use her often instead created Harper Row as a replacement for Stephnie AwesomeCon can't come soon enough to at least know how great her role is in Detective Comics. It does seem weird that Didio seems blind to how much money Stephanie solo comic raked in the past. He's one stubborn guy even though he let Rebirth come out to at least rectify some of the issues of the New 52. But you said Stephanie wasn't a big priority to Tynion yet he went through a lot trouble to bring her back unusual.
> 
> What's funny is that Snyder's writing of Dark Nights: Metal didn't confuse me for one thing as I had not trouble following every issue.
> 
> Well there is always Tynion's other project that he is being quite mum about as well to announce what will happen to Stephanie might spoil the ending of the issue involving Stephanie so maybe she'll just remain in Detective Comics if Bryan Hill and Tynion aren't going to use her.


I think Tynion wanted to have a higher priority on Steph (at least, that's what he said last year at Baltimore Comic Con), but other characters had to come first in his plotting, and then his run was truncated.

Steph's comic didn't make a TON of money, but it was stronger in sales than several of the boy Robin solos have been for quite a while.

I don't think I had a problem following Metal, but I have a massive problem caring.

Tynion's not in Gotham anymore, so unless he's doing a Titans book (and with Titans and New Titans both announced without Steph (or Tim) it's pretty sure she's not going to be anywhere), no, I don't think so. Also, I think Tynion's projects are:

1) Immortal Men

2) Justice League Dark

3) Evil Justice League backup issues for Snyder's run (he announced that on twitter).

4) Creator owned stuff like Memetic/The Woods/Backstagers.

That's a lot of comics, and likely close to 1 comic a week, which is pretty brutal.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think Tynion wanted to have a higher priority on Steph (at least, that's what he said last year at Baltimore Comic Con), but other characters had to come first in his plotting, and then his run was truncated.
> 
> Steph's comic didn't make a TON of money, but it was stronger in sales than several of the boy Robin solos have been for quite a while.
> 
> I don't think I had a problem following Metal, but I have a massive problem caring.
> 
> Tynion's not in Gotham anymore, so unless he's doing a Titans book (and with Titans and New Titans both announced without Steph (or Tim) it's pretty sure she's not going to be anywhere), no, I don't think so. Also, I think Tynion's projects are:
> 
> 1) Immortal Men
> ...


If his run hadn't been truncated Stephanie would probably be in a better place as would Tim.But if Young Justice is returning then Tim would probably find a home there it would be criminal to not include him alongside his best friends. Maybe Stephanie will join Tim on Young Justice to try and sync it up with the show. If only Didio would look at the numbers of Stephanie's comic and accept that she is a proven seller she would get treated much better than she currently is. Right I forgot that you don't like events. I forgot about that Tynion is leaving Gotham but after he's done writing the evil Justice League backup issues perhaps he'll take one another book gthat will feature Tim and Stephanie but I don't think doing four comics is something anyone wants though.

----------


## millernumber1

> If his run hadn't been truncated Stephanie would probably be in a better place as would Tim.But if Young Justice is returning then Tim would probably find a home there it would be criminal to not include him alongside his best friends. Maybe Stephanie will join Tim on Young Justice to try and sync it up with the show. If only Didio would look at the numbers of Stephanie's comic and accept that she is a proven seller she would get treated much better than she currently is. Right I forgot that you don't like events. I forgot about that Tynion is leaving Gotham but after he's done writing the evil Justice League backup issues perhaps he'll take one another book gthat will feature Tim and Stephanie but I don't think doing four comics is something anyone wants though.


I really don't think we're getting a Young Justice title. We might get a cartoon tie-in when the new season of Young Justice launches late this year/early next year (at this point, I'm betting on the latter), but I'm pretty sure they would have announced it already with all the other titles.

Yup. I hate events passionately. When the stakes get cartoonishly high, I check out.

I'm sure one day, about 2 years from now, he'll come back. But he's been in Gotham for 7 years, which is longer than most writers. And Snyder is always a huge draw for him to work with.

I mean, financially all writers want as many comics as they can handle. And Tynion's been a really hard worker for a long time. But I think he wants to make sure he write everything as well as possible. And I hope so as well. (I don't know if Justice League Dark will be going in my pull list, but the art and Zatanna is very tempting...)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really don't think we're getting a Young Justice title. We might get a cartoon tie-in when the new season of Young Justice launches late this year/early next year (at this point, I'm betting on the latter), but I'm pretty sure they would have announced it already with all the other titles.
> 
> Yup. I hate events passionately. When the stakes get cartoonishly high, I check out.
> 
> I'm sure one day, about 2 years from now, he'll come back. But he's been in Gotham for 7 years, which is longer than most writers. And Snyder is always a huge draw for him to work with.
> 
> I mean, financially all writers want as many comics as they can handle. And Tynion's been a really hard worker for a long time. But I think he wants to make sure he write everything as well as possible. And I hope so as well. (I don't know if Justice League Dark will be going in my pull list, but the art and Zatanna is very tempting...)


I only got the idea that a new Young Justice title is being launched again because that image shared by DC artist Marcio Takara sharing images of Conner and Cassie that look nothing like their cartoon selves as well as the fact future versions of Conner, Cassie, and Bart appeared in Super Sons of Tomorrow. As well as the fact hints that Bart does exist appeared in Flash War. Makes me believe that Young Justice is coming back. And maybe they'll announce it in another point of the year?

I suppose you don't like Acts of Vengeance and DC Legends.

Or it could be right around the corner if Tynion wants more work after writing his Justice League issues. And he doe shave one more project he has yet to announce and it can't be the Justice League backup issue maybe he's the writer for Young Justice?

----------


## millernumber1

> I only got the idea that a new Young Justice title is being launched again because that image shared by DC artist Marcio Takara sharing images of Conner and Cassie that look nothing like their cartoon selves as well as the fact future versions of Conner, Cassie, and Bart appeared in Super Sons of Tomorrow. As well as the fact hints that Bart does exist appeared in Flash War. Makes me believe that Young Justice is coming back. And maybe they'll announce it in another point of the year?
> 
> I suppose you don't like Acts of Vengeance and DC Legends.
> 
> Or it could be right around the corner if Tynion wants more work after writing his Justice League issues. And he doe shave one more project he has yet to announce and it can't be the Justice League backup issue maybe he's the writer for Young Justice?


Well, Takara is known for his fan art, so it could just be that.

I've never really read a lot about Acts of Vengeance, and I've played a little bit of DC Legends, but that style of game doesn't really appeal to me, and the storyline is too cosmic for me. It's very rare that I enjoy cosmic comics, because I'm much more hard scifi in my tastes (not that it's better, I just prefer it. The closest I've come to loving a cosmic story is The Omega Men by King and Bagenda.)

I just don't think Tynion has the space for another project. Otherwise I would think he'd stay on Tec, because getting to 1000 is such a cool thing for him.

I really wish we'd get some more news on Young Justice the cartoon, because that image of Steph as Spoiler is so tantalizing...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, Takara is known for his fan art, so it could just be that.
> 
> I've never really read a lot about Acts of Vengeance, and I've played a little bit of DC Legends, but that style of game doesn't really appeal to me, and the storyline is too cosmic for me. It's very rare that I enjoy cosmic comics, because I'm much more hard scifi in my tastes (not that it's better, I just prefer it. The closest I've come to loving a cosmic story is The Omega Men by King and Bagenda.)
> 
> I just don't think Tynion has the space for another project. Otherwise I would think he'd stay on Tec, because getting to 1000 is such a cool thing for him.
> 
> I really wish we'd get some more news on Young Justice the cartoon, because that image of Steph as Spoiler is so tantalizing...


Really? Well that's a shame still with all those hints out there that the real Conner and Bart are out there somewhere DC would be foolish to not relaunch Young Justice especially with their cartoon coming out and with a tie-in comic it means they'll be earning even more money.

I was referring to the old DC Legends event comic where Darkseid send Glorious Godfrey to turn the world against the superheroes. Cosmic stories are not for me usually though Green Lanterns is interesting.

Okay that does make sense but writing the Justice League backup issues he may or may not want another project to keep his wallet full though. Well if you haven't heard of it already I read that Stephanie is going to be Dick's apprentice in the cartoon.

----------


## adrikito

Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:

Screen Shot 243.jpg

We are almost in the 200th page.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:
> 
> Screen Shot 243.jpg
> 
> We are almost in the 200th page.


So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.

----------


## adrikito

> So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.


I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..


I liked the New 52 costume because it didn't have that ridiculous cowl. The rest of the old one is okay it's cowl that's the problem.

----------


## millernumber1

> Really? Well that's a shame still with all those hints out there that the real Conner and Bart are out there somewhere DC would be foolish to not relaunch Young Justice especially with their cartoon coming out and with a tie-in comic it means they'll be earning even more money.
> 
> I was referring to the old DC Legends event comic where Darkseid send Glorious Godfrey to turn the world against the superheroes. Cosmic stories are not for me usually though Green Lanterns is interesting.
> 
> Okay that does make sense but writing the Justice League backup issues he may or may not want another project to keep his wallet full though. Well if you haven't heard of it already I read that Stephanie is going to be Dick's apprentice in the cartoon.


Well, I think so. But what I think is almost always the opposite of what DC does.  :Smile: 

Ah, I've never heard of that DC Legends event. I've been reading Green Lanterns, because I like Seeley, but I'm about to drop it, because I just don't care about the whole concept. The characters are nice, but it's just not holding me.

I have heard that Steph is connected to Dick, which I think would be cool. I'm not usually a big fan of Dick, but Dick in Young Justice is a really fun character. Probably because I saw him as a kid, then grown up.




> Incomplete image of Steph in 2018 wondercon:
> 
> Screen Shot 243.jpg
> 
> We are almost in the 200th page.


Awesome pic, and we shall make it to 200 this week! Hooray!




> So people still do remember the old Red Robin suit. Maybe DC should use it again minus the Doctor Mid-Nite cowl.


I liked the old Red Robin costume, but I do think it pushes Tim visually too much towards the mini-Batman characterization.




> I am not Tim fan and I like this costume.. Better than his N52 Costume..


I really like Tim. But the n52 costume annoyed me. Mostly the wings. The rest was fine.

The wings, actually, are a perfect symbol for why I don't like the Batfamily existing in the wider superhero world. Their tech has to be pushed so far that it's really implausible when they come back to Gotham.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I think so. But what I think is almost always the opposite of what DC does. 
> 
> Ah, I've never heard of that DC Legends event. I've been reading Green Lanterns, because I like Seeley, but I'm about to drop it, because I just don't care about the whole concept. The characters are nice, but it's just not holding me.
> 
> I have heard that Steph is connected to Dick, which I think would be cool. I'm not usually a big fan of Dick, but Dick in Young Justice is a really fun character. Probably because I saw him as a kid, then grown up.
> 
> I liked the old Red Robin costume, but I do think it pushes Tim visually too much towards the mini-Batman characterization.


I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.

Well I'm going to continue reading Green lanterns but I preferred it when it was written by Humphries. He had a better grasp of Simon and Jessica though Seeley has improved on his characterisations a little. I found Dick in Young Justice a little annoying because of the words he made up they sound dumb the only character I found who could use whelmed and not annoy me was Conner. I liked him better as Nightwing though.

Well I believe Bruce did say Tim would make a better Batman than him even though Damian is supposed to be a mini-Batman. I think if Red Robin was still written by Yost it wouldn't have gone that way admittedly even though I didn't like the push into Tim becoming Batman-lite I found it more bearable than X-23 becoming Wolverine.

----------


## Assam

> I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.


And in the process squandering all the good will they've built up from all of us who've come to love Marvel over the last few years because of their fantastic legacy characters. If not for Runaways, I'd seriously consider dropping everything I'm reading from them so as to not support the initiative, but between the cancellations of Falcon and All-New Wolverine, it looks like Marvel doesn't want me reading their books anyway. 

I eagerly await seeing sales rise high for two or three months before they plummet lower than ever now that they've alienated all their new readers in exchange for the same handful of old schoolers. "Bring back the Fantastic Four" everyone cried? I give em a year before they're below 30,000, at best. "Bring back Bruce Banner as Hulk!"? A year before he's in cancellation territory. 

Gonna be fun.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> And in the process squandering all the good will they've built up from all of us who've come to love Marvel over the last few years because of their fantastic legacy characters. If not for Runaways, I'd seriously consider dropping everything I'm reading from them so as to not support the initiative, but between the cancellations of Falcon and All-New Wolverine, it looks like Marvel doesn't want me reading their books anyway. 
> 
> I eagerly await seeing sales rise high for two or three months before they plummet lower than ever now that they've alienated all their new readers in exchange for the same handful of old schoolers. "Bring back the Fantastic Four" everyone cried? I give em a year before they're below 30,000, at best. "Bring back Bruce Banner as Hulk!"? A year before he's in cancellation territory. 
> 
> Gonna be fun.


Well that's the other definition of insanity chasing whatever you think is worth the while until you don't know where to even look. Please if Marvel really cared they would have brought back the marriage of Mary Jane and Peter Parker to try and win back more old school fans. Well the insanity of the comic book industry is sometimes more entertaining than their comics will ever be sometimes.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think that applies to almost every comic company in general otherwise Marvel wouldn't have replaced all their flagship characters which squandered the good will the movies brought. So now they're going to bring them back which is taking forever.
> 
> Well I'm going to continue reading Green lanterns but I preferred it when it was written by Humphries. He had a better grasp of Simon and Jessica though Seeley has improved on his characterisations a little. I found Dick in Young Justice a little annoying because of the words he made up they sound dumb the only character I found who could use whelmed and not annoy me was Conner. I liked him better as Nightwing though.
> 
> Well I believe Bruce did say Tim would make a better Batman than him even though Damian is supposed to be a mini-Batman. I think if Red Robin was still written by Yost it wouldn't have gone that way admittedly even though I didn't like the push into Tim becoming Batman-lite I found it more bearable than X-23 becoming Wolverine.


Good will from movies doesn't really translate to comics sales (which supports Assam's point, even though I don't completely agree with it), as we see from the sales of Wonder Woman not being affected in a noticeable way last year from the Wonder Woman movie, even though it was an origin story and Wonder Woman was recognizably similar to her movie counterpart. Now, trade sales may have gone up - but since BookScan doesn't release numbers like Comichron does, we don't know that information. But it could be one of the reasons why DC is focusing so heavily on the book market.

Really? I thought Dick's linguistic acrobatics were a fun character trait. They showed that he was smart, but not super book smart like Tim, but wanted to improve his vocabulary.

Who would make a better Batman always depends on who is writing at the time. I just ignore those types of things except as they're important for the story at the time. I'm personally a fan of Dick becoming Batman (mostly because of Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham), but I have also enjoyed both fan and pro fictions about Tim and Cass being "The Batt" (by Damion Scott), or Damian becoming Batman (in a fic inspired by Morrison's Batman 666).

I don't want to go too far off of Steph, but here's where I agree with Assam again (even though I generally don't like how Marvel has handled themselves in the past 10 years, including that past 4). I'm not a Wolverine fan generally, so that's probably part of this, but I liked the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine. It felt very much like Dick Grayson becoming Batman. The series has been uneven, but I've enjoyed several of the arcs in the middle (though recently I haven't enjoyed it at all).

Now, Steph taking over Nightwing is something I think needs to happen.  :Smile:  Never going to happen, because DC won't let characters age that far, but I would like it to be in one of those alternate futures.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that's the other definition of insanity chasing whatever you think is worth the while until you don't know where to even look. Please if Marvel really cared they would have brought back the marriage of Mary Jane and Peter Parker to try and win back more old school fans. Well the insanity of the comic book industry is sometimes more entertaining than their comics will ever be sometimes.


Yeah. Instead we get Dan Slott doubling down on his spitting on the "Jackpot" panel at the end of Superior Spider-Man, showing MJ to be much lesser than she used to be.

ANYWAY, speaking of things that we would like to see brought back for old-school fans...what do we all really think is going to happen with Cass and Steph seeing their alternate histories as Batgirl? Will Steph's time as Robin also be remembered? How does it affect the ending of Tynion's run?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Good will from movies doesn't really translate to comics sales (which supports Assam's point, even though I don't completely agree with it), as we see from the sales of Wonder Woman not being affected in a noticeable way last year from the Wonder Woman movie, even though it was an origin story and Wonder Woman was recognizably similar to her movie counterpart. Now, trade sales may have gone up - but since BookScan doesn't release numbers like Comichron does, we don't know that information. But it could be one of the reasons why DC is focusing so heavily on the book market.
> 
> Really? I thought Dick's linguistic acrobatics were a fun character trait. They showed that he was smart, but not super book smart like Tim, but wanted to improve his vocabulary.
> 
> Who would make a better Batman always depends on who is writing at the time. I just ignore those types of things except as they're important for the story at the time. I'm personally a fan of Dick becoming Batman (mostly because of Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham), but I have also enjoyed both fan and pro fictions about Tim and Cass being "The Batt" (by Damion Scott), or Damian becoming Batman (in a fic inspired by Morrison's Batman 666).
> 
> I don't want to go too far off of Steph, but here's where I agree with Assam again (even though I generally don't like how Marvel has handled themselves in the past 10 years, including that past 4). I'm not a Wolverine fan generally, so that's probably part of this, but I liked the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine. It felt very much like Dick Grayson becoming Batman. The series has been uneven, but I've enjoyed several of the arcs in the middle (though recently I haven't enjoyed it at all).
> 
> Now, Steph taking over Nightwing is something I think needs to happen.  Never going to happen, because DC won't let characters age that far, but I would like it to be in one of those alternate futures.
> ...



Yeah other wise all the animated and live action shows would have contributed to sales. DC's strategy is similar to the old one Marvel had with their MAX imprint and Mangaverse but i wonder whether why they got discontinued not as effective as Marvel thought I suppose. If this fails as well I suppose it's about time DC and Marvel convert themselves into animation and live action studios since that's where the money seems to be.

I guess I didn't find Dick's linguistic acrobatics a good fit for the show's generally serious tone there were humour here and there but it felt more fitting.

That is true as shown by Tynion's depictions of Dick, Jason, and Damian either leaving or outright going overboard. In someways though Dick does work well as Batman because he doesn't rely too much on threatening people in contrast to Bruce who did.

Oh I was interested in the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine until the book got rather directionless and the new direction it took didn't have the right amount of suspense and danger to at least keep things interesting.

If only DC would talk to Bryan Q. Miller the architect of Stephanie becoming Nightwing to work on a Ink or Black Label story where Stephanie is Nightwing. 

Slott at least delivered Renew Your Vows the most positive portrayal of Peter and Mary Jane in years already. Cass and Stephanie seeing their lives as Batgirl could set them particularly Stephanie straight and remind her how much she loved being a superheroine or it could just remind fans of what could have been. If Tynion doesn't execute it right.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah other wise all the animated and live action shows would have contributed to sales. DC's strategy is similar to the old one Marvel had with their MAX imprint and Mangaverse but i wonder whether why they got discontinued not as effective as Marvel thought I suppose. If this fails as well I suppose it's about time DC and Marvel convert themselves into animation and live action studios since that's where the money seems to be.
> 
> I guess I didn't find Dick's linguistic acrobatics a good fit for the show's generally serious tone there were humour here and there but it felt more fitting.
> 
> That is true as shown by Tynion's depictions of Dick, Jason, and Damian either leaving or outright going overboard. In someways though Dick does work well as Batman because he doesn't rely too much on threatening people in contrast to Bruce who did.
> 
> Oh I was interested in the idea of Laura becoming Wolverine until the book got rather directionless and the new direction it took didn't have the right amount of suspense and danger to at least keep things interesting.
> 
> If only DC would talk to Bryan Q. Miller the architect of Stephanie becoming Nightwing to work on a Ink or Black Label story where Stephanie is Nightwing. 
> ...


Except that Marvel's Max was just R-rated comics released in regular comic form, with the same ongoing continuity types (though some are in AUs, they aren't the kinds of beginning-middle-end books that Black Label is shooting for). You can bet that anything that was discontinued was done so because they couldn't get enough money from it.  :Smile: 

I like the idea of Dick as Batman because it's all about growing up - it's a different story, but still an awesome arc and motivation for the character. Plus you have all the cool relationships he has, like with babs as Oracle in Black Mirror, or with Tim, Cass, and Damian in Gates of Gotham. Or with Steph, Babs, and Damian in the second half of Batgirl Rising.

Ah - so your attitude towards Laura as Wolverine seems to be similar to mine. You like the concept and the book was fun, but lately it's gotten less fun. I can agree with that.

DC should get BQM again, but I don't think they have the money to compete with TV shows.  :Frown:   But I would love to see a Black Label story by BQM as Nightwing (I think we pitched something like that when Black Label was announced here in the thread).

I prefer Gerry Conway and Ryan Stegman's Renew Your Vows to Slott's. Though Houser is doing okay work, I HATE Stockman's art. I hope the new artist they have announced is going to replace them.

I do hope that Steph seeing her past could at least get her out of the funk and attitude that's turning so many fans off.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Except that Marvel's Max was just R-rated comics released in regular comic form, with the same ongoing continuity types (though some are in AUs, they aren't the kinds of beginning-middle-end books that Black Label is shooting for). You can bet that anything that was discontinued was done so because they couldn't get enough money from it. 
> 
> I like the idea of Dick as Batman because it's all about growing up - it's a different story, but still an awesome arc and motivation for the character. Plus you have all the cool relationships he has, like with Babs as Oracle in Black Mirror, or with Tim, Cass, and Damian in Gates of Gotham. Or with Steph, Babs, and Damian in the second half of Batgirl Rising.
> 
> Ah - so your attitude towards Laura as Wolverine seems to be similar to mine. You like the concept and the book was fun, but lately it's gotten less fun. I can agree with that.
> 
> DC should get BQM again, but I don't think they have the money to compete with TV shows.   But I would love to see a Black Label story by BQM as Nightwing (I think we pitched something like that when Black Label was announced here in the thread).
> 
> I prefer Gerry Conway and Ryan Stegman's Renew Your Vows to Slott's. Though Houser is doing okay work, I HATE Stockman's art. I hope the new artist they have announced is going to replace them.
> ...


How did publishing their comics regular comic book format caused the MAX imprint to fail?

I'm actually okay with the idea of Dick staying as Batman it was the only way he could actually join the Justice League and he was the better Batman though it was never going to last as much some would have wanted it to. It could have gone the way thing went with the Flash franchise as Wally West I could not hold it up himself so DC had to bring back Barry. 

Pretty much yeah nothing sang for me after a while it's evident that Laura doesn't have much meat on her character take away all her problems and coming up with something new for her is going to be very difficult. To keep an ongoing series to continue to run you need incredible foresight.

Maybe if they offer Bryan Q. Miller an exclusivity contract it should help many of these old guard writers are not too thrilled with being work for hire models and given one of those would show at least they are willing to make amends with him.

Conway and Stegman did okay at least it wasn't the 90's sitcom style of writing Houser went with in her run. I liked Slott's one because it showed Peter Parker and Mary Jane who finally grew up the new writers carried that spirit on to varying degrees of success but Conway was the better one.

Well if Stephanie does see her past life as Batgirl it should be what prompts her to rethink her current choices i think it could either prompt her to go back to Batman and Tim or make her eave as she re-evaluates her choices.

----------


## millernumber1

> How did publishing their comics regular comic book format caused the MAX imprint to fail?
> 
> I'm actually okay with the idea of Dick staying as Batman it was the only way he could actually join the Justice League and he was the better Batman though it was never going to last as much some would have wanted it to. It could have gone the way thing went with the Flash franchise as Wally West I could not hold it up himself so DC had to bring back Barry. 
> 
> Pretty much yeah nothing sang for me after a while it's evident that Laura doesn't have much meat on her character take away all her problems and coming up with something new for her is going to be very difficult. To keep an ongoing series to continue to run you need incredible foresight.
> 
> Maybe if they offer Bryan Q. Miller an exclusivity contract it should help many of these old guard writers are not too thrilled with being work for hire models and given one of those would show at least they are willing to make amends with him.
> 
> Conway and Stegman did okay at least it wasn't the 90's sitcom style of writing Houser went with in her run. I liked Slott's one because it showed Peter Parker and Mary Jane who finally grew up the new writers carried that spirit on to varying degrees of success but Conway was the better one.
> ...


I don't think publishing in regular floppy format was what CAUSED it to fail, but I do think it chokes off access to a lot of people. Also, the regular ongoing title format means that the endings are less satisfying, which cuts off audiences who want a standalone story. So it was just not as successful as titles aimed directly at the "normal" mainstream comics readers.

I dunno if I'd say Dick is a BETTER Batman, but I did love him as Batman.

I think a good writer could definitely give Laura good plots. I'm not convinced that her current series is doing that (cue rage from her fans.  :Smile:  ). But again, I'm not a really big fan of the original Wolverine, so I'm clearly not the target audience.

Even an exclusive contract doesn't really give BQM as much money as being an executive producer/writer for a TV show. At least, that's my speculation. And it's almost certainly not as good on the benefits side.

I would even be okay with Steph taking a break for a while, since she's so angry and bitter and has damaged so many of her relationships. But I just want her to have something good at the end of this run. And she's had precious little good.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think publishing in regular floppy format was what CAUSED it to fail, but I do think it chokes off access to a lot of people. Also, the regular ongoing title format means that the endings are less satisfying, which cuts off audiences who want a standalone story. So it was just not as successful as titles aimed directly at the "normal" mainstream comics readers.
> 
> I dunno if I'd say Dick is a BETTER Batman, but I did love him as Batman.
> 
> I think a good writer could definitely give Laura good plots. I'm not convinced that her current series is doing that (cue rage from her fans.  ). But again, I'm not a really big fan of the original Wolverine, so I'm clearly not the target audience.
> 
> Even an exclusive contract doesn't really give BQM as much money as being an executive producer/writer for a TV show. At least, that's my speculation. And it's almost certainly not as good on the benefits side.
> 
> I would even be okay with Steph taking a break for a while, since she's so angry and bitter and has damaged so many of her relationships. But I just want her to have something good at the end of this run. And she's had precious little good.


If the plan of MAX was to try and widen Marvel's reach it obviously failed as the general public prefer definite endings in books over the indefinite endings of regular comics. I don't see how DC's approach is going to get more new readers of their mainline comics though.

I also wondered what the Batman franchise would be like if Dick stayed as Batman though.

Well I don't think catering to Wolverine fans is really the problem and I'm not convinced either that Laura's current series giving her any good plots at all. The problem with the current plots is that they don't suit Laura's character she needs more plots that are grittier or at least suspenseful and dangerous in design if they want to tame her a little. 

Would an editorial position entice Bryan Q. Miller to return then? It should a lot him tons of benefits.

Well yeah Stephanie needs it the only problem is will the next writer pick use her again?

----------


## millernumber1

> If the plan of MAX was to try and widen Marvel's reach it obviously failed as the general public prefer definite endings in books over the indefinite endings of regular comics. I don't see how DC's approach is going to get more new readers of their mainline comics though.
> 
> I also wondered what the Batman franchise would be like if Dick stayed as Batman though.
> 
> Well I don't think catering to Wolverine fans is really the problem and I'm not convinced either that Laura's current series giving her any good plots at all. The problem with the current plots is that they don't suit Laura's character she needs more plots that are grittier or at least suspenseful and dangerous in design if they want to tame her a little. 
> 
> Would an editorial position entice Bryan Q. Miller to return then? It should a lot him tons of benefits.
> 
> Well yeah Stephanie needs it the only problem is will the next writer pick use her again?


I don't know that DC is trying to get new readers of their floppy lines with Black Label. I do think they're trying to get young people interested through Ink and Zoom. I think they're just trying to figure out the best way to reach the most number of people with these characters.

If Dick were Batman permanently...I dunno. There was a sense, from 2010-2011 that it could work. But sales apparantly weren't strong enough.

When Chuck Dixon was offered Batman group editor as Denny O'Neil was leaving, he said he couldn't afford the pay cut. So...probably not.

I just don't know what the next writers are going to be. I can hope that Hill is planning at least to feature her for an issue or two, but until we know what the Batman line is looking like going into the Fall, I think we're still in limbo. (And here I was thinking that March 19th was going to be my big day to find out about Steph's fate...)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't know that DC is trying to get new readers of their floppy lines with Black Label. I do think they're trying to get young people interested through Ink and Zoom. I think they're just trying to figure out the best way to reach the most number of people with these characters.
> 
> If Dick were Batman permanently...I dunno. There was a sense, from 2010-2011 that it could work. But sales apparantly weren't strong enough.
> 
> When Chuck Dixon was offered Batman group editor as Denny O'Neil was leaving, he said he couldn't afford the pay cut. So...probably not.
> 
> I just don't know what the next writers are going to be. I can hope that Hill is planning at least to feature her for an issue or two, but until we know what the Batman line is looking like going into the Fall, I think we're still in limbo. (And here I was thinking that March 19th was going to be my big day to find out about Steph's fate...)


Well Black Label is evidently part of their attempt to tell more evergreen stories that Didio and Lee talked about. I'm sure that these new imprints should hopefully widen DC's reach beyond the direct market but I wonder how it will impact DC's mainline how are they going to drum up interest for it?

So just like Wally West I Dick was not strong enough to be a franchise carrier all on his own I guess there is no way to replace any of these old characters permanently though I wonder whether you could do it for the X-Men? The even hyped the New X-Men as the last generation of X-Men to boot.

So an editor position does not guarantee more pay that's unfortunate if comics were as big as TV and movies I wonder whether these companies could afford to pay their employees more?

I was being hypothetical well yeah if Hill likes Cass that much he should know her history back to front to at least brign Stephanie in at least as a minor character just to keep her visible enough so that people know she exist. Well never say never as they say. It just takes a little patience for her to shine quite frankly even with Didio's dislike of her Stephanie still got a solo book which makes me wonder what is really in his head?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Black Label is evidently part of their attempt to tell more evergreen stories that Didio and Lee talked about. I'm sure that these new imprints should hopefully widen DC's reach beyond the direct market but I wonder how it will impact DC's mainline how are they going to drum up interest for it?
> 
> So just like Wally West I Dick was not strong enough to be a franchise carrier all on his own I guess there is no way to replace any of these old characters permanently though I wonder whether you could do it for the X-Men? The even hyped the New X-Men as the last generation of X-Men to boot.
> 
> So an editor position does not guarantee more pay that's unfortunate if comics were as big as TV and movies I wonder whether these companies could afford to pay their employees more?
> 
> I was being hypothetical well yeah if Hill likes Cass that much he should know her history back to front to at least brign Stephanie in at least as a minor character just to keep her visible enough so that people know she exist. Well never say never as they say. It just takes a little patience for her to shine quite frankly even with Didio's dislike of her Stephanie still got a solo book which makes me wonder what is really in his head?


I don't really see why you can't tell evergreen stories in mainstream continuity. But there's always that perception. And I will say that normal writers do like to leave things too open ended if they're writing in an ongoing title.

I have no clue how they're going to drum up interest. But I hope they produce good product and lost of people read it!

I don't know if Dick is or isn't strong enough. I don't really believe that the original is always best. But I'm usually a minority in my opinions. (See also: Steph is my favorite Batgirl AND Robin.)

Comics should be big. But I don't know how to do it. Everyone complains about the Direct Market, but I don't think that many people read period, let alone read comics.

I agree with you - I would hope that Hill would give Cass at least one or two scenes with Steph as a good friend or training partner. For old time's sake. That's pretty much my biggest hope at this point.

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## adrikito

We are almost in the page 200... I should find one good fanart for celebrate this...

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## millernumber1

> We are almost in the page 200... I should find one good fanart for celebrate this...


Yes! Maybe one with all of Steph's costumes!  :Smile: 

When I go to Awesome Con this weekend, I hope I can find a Steph cosplay to show on the thread. There was a really nice one last year.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't really see why you can't tell evergreen stories in mainstream continuity. But there's always that perception. And I will say that normal writers do like to leave things too open ended if they're writing in an ongoing title.
> 
> I have no clue how they're going to drum up interest. But I hope they produce good product and lost of people read it!
> 
> I don't know if Dick is or isn't strong enough. I don't really believe that the original is always best. But I'm usually a minority in my opinions. (See also: Steph is my favorite Batgirl AND Robin.)
> 
> Comics should be big. But I don't know how to do it. Everyone complains about the Direct Market, but I don't think that many people read period, let alone read comics.
> 
> I agree with you - I would hope that Hill would give Cass at least one or two scenes with Steph as a good friend or training partner. For old time's sake. That's pretty much my biggest hope at this point.


Evergreen stories generally have definite endings that's part of what makes them classic they have such great endings that they still resonate with you for years on end. But yeah if an ongoing series could deliver a similar effect despite the ups and down of their run it could be well known even if it can't reach the same heights as classic stories like the Dark Knight Returns. Could Alan Moore be right I wonder?

Well they better drum up interest soon or risk having to end their mainline comics. I just hope that DC has more writers who can write good stories.

Well Micheal Holt replaced the original Mr. terrific and he became the one most fans know so you aren't entirely wrong in this regard that the originals aren't always better. Quite frankly as Barbara got older she will need to abandon being Batgirl eventually. And Stephanie is the perfect choice at least until she gets older and needs to move on.

Well DC is trying to widen exposure by advertising on TV as shown in their New Age of DC Superheroes commercials. If DC advertised their mainline comics this way it should make them quite huge though could it be redundant as most people already know these characters? Also with books like the Heroes of Olympus line being huge not to mention Harry Potter and Twilight how could there not be a drop in interest to read?

Well either that or Hill decides to put Stephanie on the Outsiders as well. But if he is uninterested in her I don't see it going well.

----------


## millernumber1

> Evergreen stories generally have definite endings that's part of what makes them classic they have such great endings that they still resonate with you for years on end. But yeah if an ongoing series could deliver a similar effect despite the ups and down of their run it could be well known even if it can't reach the same heights as classic stories like the Dark Knight Returns. Could Alan Moore be right I wonder?
> 
> Well they better drum up interest soon or risk having to end their mainline comics. I just hope that DC has more writers who can write good stories.
> 
> Well Micheal Holt replaced the original Mr. terrific and he became the one most fans know so you aren't entirely wrong in this regard that the originals aren't always better. Quite frankly as Barbara got older she will need to abandon being Batgirl eventually. And Stephanie is the perfect choice at least until she gets older and needs to move on.
> 
> Well DC is trying to widen exposure by advertising on TV as shown in their New Age of DC Superheroes commercials. If DC advertised their mainline comics this way it should make them quite huge though could it be redundant as most people already know these characters? Also with books like the Heroes of Olympus line being huge not to mention Harry Potter and Twilight how could there not be a drop in interest to read?
> 
> Well either that or Hill decides to put Stephanie on the Outsiders as well. But if he is uninterested in her I don't see it going well.


Well. Court of Owls is super popular, despite having a super crappy ending.  :Smile:  So I don't know what to tell ya.

I didn't know that about Michael Holt - I love that character from Checkmate.

Alan Moore is not on my list of "people who are right about most things" - what did he say that you agreed with?

I do wonder if the New Age of Heroes are really that great for new readers. They're cheap and good jumping on points, but they're not quite as high quality as I would hope, with the main artists leaving making it look like a stunt. I don't even know if new readers would really be excited about people that comic book fans would be excited about.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well. Court of Owls is super popular, despite having a super crappy ending.  So I don't know what to tell ya.
> 
> I didn't know that about Michael Holt - I love that character from Checkmate.
> 
> Alan Moore is not on my list of "people who are right about most things" - what did he say that you agreed with?
> 
> I do wonder if the New Age of Heroes are really that great for new readers. They're cheap and good jumping on points, but they're not quite as high quality as I would hope, with the main artists leaving making it look like a stunt. I don't even know if new readers would really be excited about people that comic book fans would be excited about.


How did Night of the Owls end? Yes Mr. Terrific was originally a man named Terry Sloane who had a photographic memory, Olympic level athletic ability, and mastery of martial art who graduated from college at age thirteen eventually becoming big business man and was a member of the Justice Society of America but Terry Sloane retired after the government came down hard on superheroes. But he came back and died

Alan Moore once said that superhero comics would never reach the heights stories like Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood had because they didn't have definite endings so he created Twilight of the Superheroes a story based on Ragnarok as the finale for the DC Universe. It was set in a future where the world had fallen apart so badly that the power to run the world was given to the superheroes who created a feudal society and it would be an outcome that would be completely unavoidable. And the story ends with the future John Constantine manipulating everything so that most of the aliens and superpowered characters were wiped out or sent back home to deal with bigger problems. Leaving humanity to be the sole ruler of Earth and it led to a better future. All this was told in flashback format by the past John Constantine who was told of the Twilight future by his older self to make sure it happened. In response Constantine got revenge on his future self by denying himself a relationship with a woman he would love forever. The script for Twilight of the Superheroes was never published but it was stolen and shared online Alan Moore himself confirmed that it was the script he wrote.

As far as I know the stories in most of the New Age of Superheroes line are well planned the writing is fairly tight. As far as I can analyse Damage does fall under the stunt category but the scenarios in it seem quite well thought out. Sideways is the only one I know with no connections to the wider DC superhero community and his story is less of a stunt so it might be more bearable.

----------


## millernumber1

> How did Night of the Owls end? Yes Mr. Terrific was originally a man named Terry Sloane who had a photographic memory, Olympic level athletic ability, and mastery of martial art who graduated from college at age thirteen eventually becoming big business man and was a member of the Justice Society of America but Terry Sloane retired after the government came down hard on superheroes. But he came back and died
> 
> Alan Moore once said that superhero comics would never reach the heights stories like Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood had because they didn't have definite endings so he created Twilight of the Superheroes a story based on Ragnarok as the finale for the DC Universe. It was set in a future where the world had fallen apart so badly that the power to run the world was given to the superheroes who created a feudal society and it would be an outcome that would be completely unavoidable. And the story ends with the future John Constantine manipulating everything so that most of the aliens and superpowered characters were wiped out or sent back home to deal with bigger problems. Leaving humanity to be the sole ruler of Earth and it led to a better future. All this was told in flashback format by the past John Constantine who was told of the Twilight future by his older self to make sure it happened. In response Constantine got revenge on his future self by denying himself a relationship with a woman he would love forever. The script for Twilight of the Superheroes was never published but it was stolen and shared online Alan Moore himself confirmed that it was the script he wrote.
> 
> As far as I know the stories in most of the New Age of Superheroes line are well planned the writing is fairly tight. As far as I can analyse Damage does fall under the stunt category but the scenarios in it seem quite well thought out. Sideways is the only one I know with no connections to the wider DC superhero community and his story is less of a stunt so it might be more bearable.


Night of Owls ends with Batman having defeated the Talon attack, and discovering that the Court may or may not have killed his parents (or been trying to kill them), and he may or may not have had a brother who was allied with the Court. The entire thing is very much "meaningless victory and a truckload of unnecessary ambiguity."

Interesting that Moore thinks people love Holmes and Robin Hood because of their endings. I personally hate the ending of Robin Hood, and Holmes doesn't really have an ending (unless you think Reichenbach was the real ending, which I think is silly).

The problem I have with Sideways (other than being written by Didio) is that it's basically just a mashup of Spider-Man and Jumper. The big problem, though, is the artists all leaving after three (or fewer) issues, and the art feeling more than a bit rushed on several of them.

Of course, the real problem is that Steph isn't in any of them.  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Night of Owls ends with Batman having defeated the Talon attack, and discovering that the Court may or may not have killed his parents (or been trying to kill them), and he may or may not have had a brother who was allied with the Court. The entire thing is very much "meaningless victory and a truckload of unnecessary ambiguity."
> 
> Interesting that Moore thinks people love Holmes and Robin Hood because of their endings. I personally hate the ending of Robin Hood, and Holmes doesn't really have an ending (unless you think Reichenbach was the real ending, which I think is silly).
> 
> The problem I have with Sideways (other than being written by Didio) is that it's basically just a mashup of Spider-Man and Jumper. The big problem, though, is the artists all leaving after three (or fewer) issues, and the art feeling more than a bit rushed on several of them.
> 
> Of course, the real problem is that Steph isn't in any of them.


Sounds like Scott Snyder wanted to create more stories involving the Court of Owls and Bruce's possible brother. But it looks like he never got around to it I wonder why though?

What was wrong with Robin Hood's ending anyway? Well His Last Bow which takes place in Holmes' returement days should qualify as the ending of the Holmes stories.

So Sideways not original enough for you huh? Well I like it because Marvel won't deliver a good Spider-Man story I thought why not go to DC for one? And I like it for that.

And hwo would Stephanie fit into the New Age of DC Superheroes line anyway?

----------


## millernumber1

> Sounds like Scott Snyder wanted to create more stories involving the Court of Owls and Bruce's possible brother. But it looks like he never got around to it I wonder why though?
> 
> What was wrong with Robin Hood's ending anyway? Well His Last Bow which takes place in Holmes' returement days should qualify as the ending of the Holmes stories.
> 
> So Sideways not original enough for you huh? Well I like it because Marvel won't deliver a good Spider-Man story I thought why not go to DC for one? And I like it for that.
> 
> And hwo would Stephanie fit into the New Age of DC Superheroes line anyway?


Ah, but he did! The Court pops up quite a bit as side characters in his stories, and Batman Eternal, Robin War, and Grayson/Nightwing all deal heavily with the Court of Owls in various ways. And then, of course, Metal is theoretically part of the the whole Court of Owls story. But it's so muddled that I think it's basically just a reference.

Robin Hood's ending is that evil triumphs over good. Not fun. And His Last Bow could count, but there were over a dozen stories published afterwards, plus it leaves it open for Holmes to do spying in WWI or something (plus I read bunches of pastiches which happen afterwards).

Well, Sideways is a story that takes place in the high schools (it looks like the suburbs) of Gotham. Steph could easily fit into that world.  :Smile:  But again...it's by Didio.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Ah, but he did! The Court pops up quite a bit as side characters in his stories, and Batman Eternal, Robin War, and Grayson/Nightwing all deal heavily with the Court of Owls in various ways. And then, of course, Metal is theoretically part of the the whole Court of Owls story. But it's so muddled that I think it's basically just a reference.
> 
> Robin Hood's ending is that evil triumphs over good. Not fun. And His Last Bow could count, but there were over a dozen stories published afterwards, plus it leaves it open for Holmes to do spying in WWI or something (plus I read bunches of pastiches which happen afterwards).
> 
> Well, Sideways is a story that takes place in the high schools (it looks like the suburbs) of Gotham. Steph could easily fit into that world.  But again...it's by Didio.


I wonder whether Scott Snyder wanted to create this overlong saga involving the Court of Owls because that's too long for any average person to have the patience to keep up with. He'd better end it soon especially since he's going to be doing Justice League now and it doesn't look like he can tie the Court to the Justice League.

Oh I see you point well at least Robin Hood does have an ending though it's not the kind adaption want to show. And all these stories were commissioned by Conan Doyle's estate? Because if they are they can be considered part of the canon.

I see your point with Didio writing Sideways he won't even let Stephanie set foot in Sideways' corner of Gotham. A shame too as it's not like Batman will ignore Sideways' existence forever and Stephanie could be a good partner for Derek James.

----------


## millernumber1

> I wonder whether Scott Snyder wanted to create this overlong saga involving the Court of Owls because that's too long for any average person to have the patience to keep up with. He'd better end it soon especially since he's going to be doing Justice League now and it doesn't look like he can tie the Court to the Justice League.
> 
> Oh I see you point well at least Robin Hood does have an ending though it's not the kind adaption want to show. And all these stories were commissioned by Conan Dyole's estate? Because if they are they can be considered part of the canon.
> 
> I see your point with Didio writing Sideways he won't even let Stephanie set foot in Sideways' corner of Gotham. A shame too as it's not like Batman will ignore Sideways' existence forever and Stephanie could be a good partner for Derek James.


I mean...is it really longer than the Leviathan saga of Morrison? From Batman #655 (July 2006) to Batman Inc #13 (July 2013) - 7 years. Compare that to Snyder's Court of Owls (which you could count from Gates of Gotham, since in the flashbacks he sets up the Court's existence visually, but I don't think that really counts) - Batman #1 (September 2011) to Dark Knights Metal #6 (March 2018) - also seven years. We'll have to see if he keeps this weird Birds vs. Bats thing going in Justice League. But I hope not.

No, only the original stories are canon. All the other stories are just pastiches, I don't care if they were written by Conan Doyle's son or if the estate commissioned them. It's all fanfic.  :Smile: 

Well, I think Steph would be a fun guest star in Sideways. Or in The Signal. It'd be interesting to see her take on actual superpowers, since she doesn't deal with them that much (except I guess with Clayface).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean...is it really longer than the Leviathan saga of Morrison? From Batman #655 (July 2006) to Batman Inc #13 (July 2013) - 7 years. Compare that to Snyder's Court of Owls (which you could count from Gates of Gotham, since in the flashbacks he sets up the Court's existence visually, but I don't think that really counts) - Batman #1 (September 2011) to Dark Knights Metal #6 (March 2018) - also seven years. We'll have to see if he keeps this weird Birds vs. Bats thing going in Justice League. But I hope not.
> 
> No, only the original stories are canon. All the other stories are just pastiches, I don't care if they were written by Conan Doyle's son or if the estate commissioned them. It's all fanfic. 
> 
> Well, I think Steph would be a fun guest star in Sideways. Or in The Signal. It'd be interesting to see her take on actual superpowers, since she doesn't deal with them that much (except I guess with Clayface).


Seven years and people are still patient with Snyder amazing. My best bet is that Snyder will end his saga in Dark Nights: Metal since the Court is tied to it albeit in a minor fashion. Because Snyder can't keep it up in Justice League because it's a book about the team not Batman. It would hard to read if it went that way.

Oh see well House of Silk doe seem like it can fit somewhere in the canon of Sherlock Holmes with the way it was written and the canon itself doesn't quite adhere to a set dating system per se.

It would be interesting to see Stephanie not only deal with superpowers but also cosmic entities as that's one of Sideways' enemies too. If Snyder likes Stephanie well enough maybe he'll include her in the Signal. Also Ives has returned in Detective Comics in a flash forward.

----------


## Assam

> A shame too as it's not like Batman will ignore Sideways' existence forever


Sure he could. Once Derek's book ends in a year or two, he's probably gonna stay in limbo mostly with the rest of the NAofH crew. 




> If Snyder likes Stephanie well enough maybe he'll include her in the Signal.


1. We don't have any confirmation that The Signal is getting an ongoing and his being on the Outsiders makes it a bit less likely. 
2. Even if the book happens, Snyder wouldn't be the one writing it; Patrick would.

----------


## millernumber1

> Seven years and people are still patient with Snyder amazing. My best bet is that Snyder will end his saga in Dark Nights: Metal since the Court is tied to it albeit in a minor fashion. Because Snyder can't keep it up in Justice League because it's a book about the team not Batman. It would hard to read if it went that way.
> 
> Oh see well House of Silk doe seem like it can fit somewhere in the canon of Sherlock Holmes with the way it was written and the canon itself doesn't quite adhere to a set dating system per se.
> 
> It would be interesting to see Stephanie not only deal with superpowers but also cosmic entities as that's one of Sideways' enemies too. If Snyder likes Stephanie well enough maybe he'll include her in the Signal. Also Ives has returned in Detective Comics in a flash forward.


House of Silk was okay, but not really the equal of the Hound of the Baskervilles or Sign of Four. It's just another pastiche. (And yes, the dates in Holmes are ridiculous - kind of like the dates in comics. Seriously, people who get mad at comics for being vague about dates confuse me...do they actually think characters are going to be allowed to age?)

Yup! Tynion's doing his best to try to bring everyone back from the Dixon days! Who's left? Steph's old terrible boyfriend?  :Smile: 

I agree - though I prefer a street-level story, it's been so long that Steph's existed without really having adventures with the Teen Titans. BQM hinted at these ideas with his team up with Supergirl and the other heros in #23, but there should have been more.

----------


## millernumber1

> Sure he could. Once Derek's book ends in a year or two, he's probably gonna stay in limbo mostly with the rest of the NAofH crew. 
> 
> 1. We don't have any confirmation that The Signal is getting an ongoing and his being on the Outsiders makes it a bit less likely. 
> 2. Even if the book happens, Snyder wouldn't be the one writing it; Patrick would.


Signal is almost certainly getting an ongoing, since Snyder's pushing for it, and he calls it a "success" (completely artificial from the "Batman" and "Snyder" on the cover, I think. I really don't think it would be selling more than We Are Robin or any of the New Age of Heroes books otherwise.) But yes, Patrick would be the one writing it.

Also: 200 PAGES! WOOHOO!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sure he could. Once Derek's book ends in a year or two, he's probably gonna stay in limbo mostly with the rest of the NAofH crew. 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. We don't have any confirmation that The Signal is getting an ongoing and his being on the Outsiders makes it a bit less likely. 
> 2. Even if the book happens, Snyder wouldn't be the one writing it; Patrick would.


Not very optimistic  about the New Age of Superheroes line are you? Well the stories are good but their first time out of the gate doesn't seem like it really set the world on fire or something. And never underestimate the power of Snyder he could probably do just about anything at this point.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> House of Silk was okay, but not really the equal of the Hound of the Baskervilles or Sign of Four. It's just another pastiche. (And yes, the dates in Holmes are ridiculous - kind of like the dates in comics. Seriously, people who get mad at comics for being vague about dates confuse me...do they actually think characters are going to be allowed to age?)
> 
> Yup! Tynion's doing his best to try to bring everyone back from the Dixon days! Who's left? Steph's old terrible boyfriend? 
> 
> I agree - though I prefer a street-level story, it's been so long that Steph's existed without really having adventures with the Teen Titans. BQM hinted at these ideas with his team up with Supergirl and the other heros in #23, but there should have been more.


In other words messed up dates in fiction predate the modern comic well that makes everything even more foolish though I guess that comes when people expect more out their entertainment these days. Though what is more can vary a lot. I believe Tim's parents are missing though i don't think anyone is clamoring for a return of that guy. If it's street level that's more fitting then the Signal might be the best place to go to but it's supposed to be a mini-series though Snyder seems capable of doing just about anything at this point.

----------


## millernumber1

> In other words messed up dates in fiction predate the modern comic well that makes everything even more foolish though I guess that comes when people expect more out their entertainment these days. Though what is more can vary a lot. I believe Tim's parents are missing though i don't think anyone is clamoring for a return of that guy. If it's street level that's more fitting then the Signal might be the best place to go to but it's supposed to be a mini-series though Snyder seems capable of doing just about anything at this point.


Tim's parents are...in a weird limbo. In the n52, they were alive and well, living in a Gotham suburb under Tim's protection (as seen in Batman and Robin Eternal). But with A Lonely Place of Living...we don't know at all about them.

We shall have to see with Steph. Unless Tec gives her a massive push to go somewhere, I think we're stuck in limbo for several months. At which point, maybe I'll finally start doing what other appreciation threads do and post lots of fan art and old arcs.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

Congratulations steph for the 200th page:

----------


## Assam

> Not very optimistic  about the New Age of Superheroes line are you?


Their sales arne't good at all, especially considering that since DC spent who knows how much money on TV advertisements for the line, they didn't have lowered expectations as they do for stuff like  Young Animal and Hanna Barbera. 

And no, Snyder will not writing The Signal. Not even a chance. After his last Batman story, he's done with Gotham. Even if that wasn't the case, with how little effort he's put into actually building Duke up, I'd still think he'd have Patrick write it.

----------


## Assam

> Congratulations steph for the 200th page:
> 
> ashley_benson_as_stephanie_brown.jpg
> 
> 2013.. One Steph fan wanting her return, adding reasons and talking about Steph past:
> 
> http://analyticalotaku.blogspot.com....nie-brown.html


Ugh. I know you're trying to use that blog post to celebrate Steph but it just reminds me of the utter bulls**t that was a lot of Steph fans during those years, trying to use _her_ as an example of lost diversity in the Nu52.  :Mad: 

But yeah, nice that we got to 200.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

OK.. The link is not here anymore *Assam*..

Spoiler. Robin, Batgirl:

----------


## millernumber1

> Congratulations steph for the 200th page:
> 
> ashley_benson_as_stephanie_brown.jpg
> 
> 2013.. One Steph fan wanting her return, adding reasons and talking about Steph past:
> 
> http://analyticalotaku.blogspot.com....nie-brown.html


Oooh, nice blog post! Thanks for sharing! I'm interested that in 2013 people wanted Steph and Tim's relationship to have some restoration as well.  :Smile: 




> Their sales arne't good at all, especially considering that since DC spent who knows how much money on TV advertisements for the line, they didn't have lowered expectations as they do for stuff like  Young Animal and Hanna Barbera. 
> 
> And no, Snyder will not writing The Signal. Not even a chance. After his last Batman story, he's done with Gotham. Even if that wasn't the case, with how little effort he's put into actually building Duke up, I'd still think he'd have Patrick write it.


I'm curious about what sales were expected. Because they have no real big name writers, all new characters and no "name" characters to help (unlike Signal, which is cheating twice on that front), the big name artists are all leaving almost immediately, and no variant covers. I would think the numbers are about what I'd have expected with those conditions.

----------


## millernumber1

> Spoiler. Robin, Batgirl:


Yes - nice one!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Their sales arne't good at all, especially considering that since DC spent who knows how much money on TV advertisements for the line, they didn't have lowered expectations as they do for stuff like  Young Animal and Hanna Barbera. 
> 
> And no, Snyder will not writing The Signal. Not even a chance. After his last Batman story, he's done with Gotham. Even if that wasn't the case, with how little effort he's put into actually building Duke up, I'd still think he'd have Patrick write it.


Well that's unfortunate is Young Anime and Hanna Barbera a lot better though? Maybe the new writer can take the steps needed to build up Duke I haven't found him all that appealing and would simply remove him if I ever rebooted the DC Universe.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Tim's parents are...in a weird limbo. In the n52, they were alive and well, living in a Gotham suburb under Tim's protection (as seen in Batman and Robin Eternal). But with A Lonely Place of Living...we don't know at all about them.
> 
> We shall have to see with Steph. Unless Tec gives her a massive push to go somewhere, I think we're stuck in limbo for several months. At which point, maybe I'll finally start doing what other appreciation threads do and post lots of fan art and old arcs.


From what I can tell of what Tynion has done it seems like he's assuming that people will believe from the way he writes things Tim's everything has been restored he's one of the few writers who have taken advantage of the outcome of Superman Reborn to bring back Post-Crisis material Christopher Priest is probably another. There's also Conner, Cassie, and Bart and it's going to be a while before they return.

Yeah so Tynion better come up with something good for Stephanie or she's going into limbo it's almost like death really and closest one can get to actually dying comics. Still have some hope it'll be fine somehow.

----------


## millernumber1

> From what I can tell of what Tynion has done it seems like he's assuming that people will believe from the way he writes things Tim's everything has been restored he's one of the few writers who have taken advantage of the outcome of Superman Reborn to bring back Post-Crisis material Christopher Priest is probably another. There's also Conner, Cassie, and Bart and it's going to be a while before they return.
> 
> Yeah so Tynion better come up with something good for Stephanie or she's going into limbo it's almost like death really and closest one can get to actually dying comics. Still have some hope it'll be fine somehow.


I know I'm in a minority, but I think limbo (and even bad OOC stuff) is better than death. Death means you have ZERO appearances, and very little fanbase growth. Limbo means someone will bring you back, and fans feel like investing time in a character is worth it because it may be useful in the future.

We shall see. 200 pages can't be wrong, right?  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I know I'm in a minority, but I think limbo (and even bad OOC stuff) is better than death. Death means you have ZERO appearances, and very little fanbase growth. Limbo means someone will bring you back, and fans feel like investing time in a character is worth it because it may be useful in the future.
> 
> We shall see. 200 pages can't be wrong, right?


These days death and limbo seem to mean the same thing in the comic book world I doubt you could tell each other part I'm impressed that you can even do that. And happy 200 pages I suppose and thanks chiefly to us. .

----------


## millernumber1

> These days death and limbo seem to mean the same thing in the comic book world I doubt you could tell each other part I'm impressed that you can even do that. And happy 200 pages I suppose and thanks chiefly to us. .


Well, it really depends on the kind of death. If we're talking War Games, where Steph is supposed to be dead dead, or Death in the Family, death is the worst. I would also count the n52, since erasure so that you never existed is pretty much the same as death. And then you're just stuck without any writer who cares about your favorite character, waiting 3-4 years before they come back. Whereas limbo means that someone could reference you or put you in a side story (basically what happened to Steph between her introduction and the start of the Robin series, or what happened between the end of the Robin series and the start of her Batgirl run, or what happened to Cass between the end of her being evil and the start of the n52). You can get some good stories out of limbo - Gates of Gotham, Showcase 95. You get pretty much zero good stories out of being dead (though Jason did have a couple of flashbacks which were okay, but a lot more that were "JASON WAS A BAD ROBIN.")

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, it really depends on the kind of death. If we're talking War Games, where Steph is supposed to be dead dead, or Death in the Family, death is the worst. I would also count the n52, since erasure so that you never existed is pretty much the same as death. And then you're just stuck without any writer who cares about your favorite character, waiting 3-4 years before they come back. Whereas limbo means that someone could reference you or put you in a side story (basically what happened to Steph between her introduction and the start of the Robin series, or what happened between the end of the Robin series and the start of her Batgirl run, or what happened to Cass between the end of her being evil and the start of the n52). You can get some good stories out of limbo - Gates of Gotham, Showcase 95. You get pretty much zero good stories out of being dead (though Jason did have a couple of flashbacks which were okay, but a lot more that were "JASON WAS A BAD ROBIN.")


At least Stephanie didn't have to wait long to come back after War Games. Jason had to wait thirty years at the very least to come back. And when she came back Stephanie got better treatment than Jason did as he got turned into a villain while Stephanie managed to salvage her reputation. But if DC hadn't rebooted I think it would simply be easy to use continuity to your advantage to create new stories to salvage Jason's reputation. Then I guess limbo is better than dying since it tends to mean zero exposure and a drop in popularity. Though Barry Allen's death was a good one and he still managed to be so ppopular that DC had to bring him back.

----------


## Assam

> Though Barry Allen's death was a good one and he still managed to be so popular that DC had to bring him back.


That's not what happened. Like, at all. Barry was brought back because Geoff Johns wanted him back.

----------


## millernumber1

> At least Stephanie didn't have to wait long to come back after War Games. Jason had to wait thirty years at the very least to come back. And when she came back Stephanie got better treatment than Jason did as he got turned into a villain while Stephanie managed to salvage her reputation. But if DC hadn't rebooted I think it would simply be easy to use continuity to your advantage to create new stories to salvage Jason's reputation. Then I guess limbo is better than dying since it tends to mean zero exposure and a drop in popularity. Though Barry Allen's death was a good one and he still managed to be so ppopular that DC had to bring him back.


It felt long! But yes, compared to Jason fans, we have only a tiny amount of time. I am curious to know if Jason fans are happy with his current status quo, with 7 years of a small team book starring Jason.  I know if I'd gotten 7 years of Steph on a team book as a starring character, I'd be pretty happy.  :Smile: 




> That's not what happened. Like, at all. Barry was brought back because Geoff Johns wanted him back.


Isn't it always someone specific who wants to bring a character back? I mean, Dixon and Tynion bringing Steph back, Tynion bringing Cass back, Johns bringing Barry back?

----------


## Assam

> It felt long! But yes, compared to Jason fans, we have only a tiny amount of time. I am curious to know if Jason fans are happy with his current status quo, with 7 years of a small team book starring Jason.  I know if I'd gotten 7 years of Steph on a team book as a starring character, I'd be pretty happy.


While Jason and Tim fans do definitely have more of a case than Dick and Damian fans, especially Tim fans, I always find them complaining about how they're treated horribly by DC to be like a millionaire complaining that they're not a billionaire. 




> Isn't it always someone specific who wants to bring a character back? I mean, Dixon and Tynion bringing Steph back, Tynion bringing Cass back, Johns bringing Barry back?


I think Barry's case, sticking with the Batverse here, is more comparable to JPV's return. With Cass and Steph, there was massive fan demand for them, writers wanted to use them and it was just Snyder and Tynion who happened to be the ones with the power amassed to break through editorial. With Barry and JPV, there were fans who wanted them back, obviously MANY more Barry fans, but it wasn't as if there was massive demand for Barry to return or, as far as we know, writers who wanted to bring him back, as for an entire generation Wally was THE Flash and even plenty of old-schoolers were happy with Barry's ending. Johns and Tynion wanted these characters around though and so back they came.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's not what happened. Like, at all. Barry was brought back because Geoff Johns wanted him back.


Really I thought it had something to do with Wally not being able to carry the Flash franchise forward or something like that?

----------


## millernumber1

> While Jason and Tim fans do definitely have more of a case than Dick and Damian fans, especially Tim fans, I always find them complaining about how they're treated horribly by DC to be like a millionaire complaining that they're not a billionaire. 
> 
> I think Barry's case, sticking with the Batverse here, is more comparable to JPV's return. With Cass and Steph, there was massive fan demand for them, writers wanted to use them and it was just Snyder and Tynion who happened to be the ones with the power amassed to break through editorial. With Barry and JPV, there were fans who wanted them back, obviously MANY more Barry fans, but it wasn't as if there was massive demand for Barry to return or, as far as we know, writers who wanted to bring him back, as for an entire generation Wally was THE Flash and even plenty of old-schoolers were happy with Barry's ending. Johns and Tynion wanted these characters around though and so back they came.


And yet, the only fans I never see complaining are Dick fans. I mean, I see them saying that the current Nightwing title isn't their favorite, but none of them are ever worried that they won't have a Nightwing title.Your millionaire/billionaire analogy is pretty spot on.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the fanbase looks like post-Tec. Though I'm really amused (and also pretty excited) for Azrael, both because it's a really cool new idea, and because we're finally getting the Tec characters written by multiple writers, which is always the way for longer lasting characters.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It felt long! But yes, compared to Jason fans, we have only a tiny amount of time. I am curious to know if Jason fans are happy with his current status quo, with 7 years of a small team book starring Jason.  I know if I'd gotten 7 years of Steph on a team book as a starring character, I'd be pretty happy. 
> 
> Isn't it always someone specific who wants to bring a character back? I mean, Dixon and Tynion bringing Steph back, Tynion bringing Cass back, Johns bringing Barry back?


I know I and much of the Jason Todd Appreciation Thread posters are happy with Jason's current status quo though I heard of grumblings made by certain fans that want Jason to be more like he was in Post-Crisis but the majority of his portrayal in that period were not very flattering so I'm not sure what. they want from that. But it's not like Jason hasn't killed at all so I don't see the point of the complaints. I'm still wondering how Didio keeps letting Stephanie come back despite his dislike for her. I know how Tynion got to have her but how did Dixon get her back?

----------


## millernumber1

> I know I and much of the Jason Todd Appreciation Thread posters are happy with Jason's current status quo though I heard of grumblings made by certain fans that want Jason to be more like he was in Post-Crisis but the majority of his portrayal in that period were not very flattering so I'm not sure what. they want from that. But it's not like Jason hasn't killed at all so I don't see the point of the complaints. I'm still wondering how Didio keeps letting Stephanie come back despite his dislike for her. I know how Tynion got to have her but how did Dixon get her back?


I honestly have no idea what was happening in 2007-8. The whole Dixon hiring and then firing, Steph coming back and then becoming Batgirl - it's incredibly unclear. Dixon doesn't know why it happened either, and has said so a lot in podcasts for the past ten years.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I honestly have no idea what was happening in 2007-8. The whole Dixon hiring and then firing, Steph coming back and then becoming Batgirl - it's incredibly unclear. Dixon doesn't know why it happened either, and has said so a lot in podcasts for the past ten years.


Maybe Didio secretly likes Stephanie or something hahaha! And Dixon never tried to ask why editorial relented and let him have her?

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe Didio secretly likes Stephanie or something hahaha! And Dixon never tried to ask why editorial relented and let him have her?


Uhhhh, no, I doubt it.  :Smile: 

The most recent interviews Dixon has done indicate that he's talked to his immediate editor when he was fired in 2008, and they didn't know either.

----------


## Assam

> Really I thought it had something to do with Wally not being able to carry the Flash franchise forward or something like that?


Not in the slightest. Wally carried the Flash franchise for about 20 years before any murmurs about Barry's return started, consistently selling well, building the Flash Family around him and his era has been the only time the franchise has held more than one book, _Impulse_ lasting 89 issues. Barry was never supposed to come back and be the main Flash. To give you the abridged version, Johns wanted to bring Barry back in Infinite Crisis with Wally taken out of the picture for a short time while younger fans got acclimated to Barry. When those plans didn't go through, Bart was randomly made the Flash instead, which was a complete disaster, so they brought Wally back, but Johns still wanted to bring Barry back as well. Cut to a couple years later and Barry finally comes back in Final Crisis, leading into Flash: Rebirth, which was supposed to lead to both Barry's Flash book and a Wally lead Speed Force team book. However, because of the Nu52, the latter never happened and the Flash Family was erased from existence. 




> And yet, the only fans I never see complaining are Dick fans.


You clearly don't look at the Dick thread much. :Stick Out Tongue:  These last few days especially have been filled with cries of how DC hates Dick and is constantly mistreating him and how they have to soldier on and keep fighting as they always have...not realizing that the simple fact that he's the lead in a team book and is guaranteed to always have a solo makes him one of the best treated characters in the DCU. 




> I guess we'll have to wait and see what the fanbase looks like post-Tec. Though I'm really amused (and also pretty excited) for Azrael, both because it's a really cool new idea, and because we're finally getting the Tec characters written by multiple writers, which is always the way for longer lasting characters.


It's pretty fun seeing where everyone's going. JPV to the JLO, Cass to the Outsiders, Kate I see sticking with Tynion and moving to the JLD after her book ends at #18, Tim is almost certainly reforming Young Justice; the only loose ends are Luke and Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> You clearly don't look at the Dick thread much. These last few days especially have been filled with cries of how DC hates Dick and is constantly mistreating him and how they have to soldier on and keep fighting as they always have...not realizing that the simple fact that he's the lead in a team book and is guaranteed to always have a solo makes him one of the best treated characters in the DCU. 
> 
> It's pretty fun seeing where everyone's going. JPV to the JLO, Cass to the Outsiders, Kate I see sticking with Tynion and moving to the JLD after her book ends at #18, Tim is almost certainly reforming Young Justice; the only loose ends are Luke and Steph.


Wait, wut. How in the world do you interpret "never without a solo, always wins polls, and most writers say he's their favorite character" as "being treated badly"? I'm so confused.

Kate on Justice League Dark does sound fun.

But yes, if Steph has nowhere to go, I'll be very sad. Also mad.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Uhhhh, no, I doubt it. 
> 
> The most recent interviews Dixon has done indicate that he's talked to his immediate editor when he was fired in 2008, and they didn't know either.


Hence my laughter. Still the chain of command at DC sunds messed and as much as it is for many kids to work for them at least the brick wall surrounding them serves as a kind of safety measure to avoivd a confusing chain of command. I wonder whether former DC editor Paul Levitz was around then he vetoed a lot Didio's wishes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not in the slightest. Wally carried the Flash franchise for about 20 years before any murmurs about Barry's return started, consistently selling well, building the Flash Family around him and his era has been the only time the franchise has held more than one book, _Impulse_ lasting 89 issues. Barry was never supposed to come back and be the main Flash. To give you the abridged version, Johns wanted to bring Barry back in Infinite Crisis with Wally taken out of the picture for a short time while younger fans got acclimated to Barry. When those plans didn't go through, Bart was randomly made the Flash instead, which was a complete disaster, so they brought Wally back, but Johns still wanted to bring Barry back as well. Cut to a couple years later and Barry finally comes back in Final Crisis, leading into Flash: Rebirth, which was supposed to lead to both Barry's Flash book and a Wally lead Speed Force team book. However, because of the Nu52, the latter never happened and the Flash Family was erased from existence.


That sounds crazy I could barely read all that. So it could have been a case where Micheal Holt the current Mr. Terrific became the better one to hold the mantle over Terry Sloane. But Geoff Johns loved Barry so much that he had to bring him back. It sounds like many weren't too pleased to have Barry come back. Still with the way things are in the Flash comics it could become the Speedforce book that never came out.

----------


## Frontier

> That's not what happened. Like, at all. Barry was brought back because Geoff Johns wanted him back.


I've heard many conflicting accounts as to why Barry came back.

----------


## millernumber1

Steph (and Cass) fans! There's a Future's End sale, and while normally I wouldn't be excited about this, you can get Gail Simone's mostly excellent Batgirl issue from that event for a dollar on comixlogy!

https://www.comixology.com/Batgirl-2...9pdGVtU2xpZGVy

Get it for the Steph! Get it for the Cass! Get it for the gooperangs!

----------


## Sardorim

Stephanie looks great in her mock up for Young Justice Season 3.

Wonder how this affects Tim as Steph is portrayed constantly as his true love interest but he's currently with Cassie in Young Justice. Smells like drama.

----------


## adrikito

> Steph (and Cass) fans! There's a Future's End sale, and while normally I wouldn't be excited about this, you can get Gail Simone's mostly excellent Batgirl issue from that event for a dollar on comixlogy!
> 
> https://www.comixology.com/Batgirl-2...9pdGVtU2xpZGVy
> 
> Get it for the Steph! Get it for the Cass! Get it for the gooperangs!


Thanks for the information..

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie looks great in her mock up for Young Justice Season 3.
> 
> Wonder how this affects Tim as Steph is portrayed constantly as his true love interest but he's currently with Cassie in Young Justice. Smells like drama.


She does look great! I can't wait for this show to finally air!

As a Tim/Steph shipper, I would like them to be together in the show. As someone who hates triangles, I hope that doesn't happen if it causes a triangle.

My biggest hope is that she gets an episode where she's one of the stars, like the kids with Blue Beetle did.




> Thanks for the information..


Indeed! Check it out - if you liked Steph's run as Batgirl, this has some great moments for her!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> She does look great! I can't wait for this show to finally air!
> 
> As a Tim/Steph shipper, I would like them to be together in the show. As someone who hates triangles, I hope that doesn't happen if it causes a triangle.
> 
> My biggest hope is that she gets an episode where she's one of the stars, like the kids with Blue Beetle did.


Given how Dick broke up with two girls before Season 2 began wanna bet Tim did the same and broke up with Cassie because not many people have fond memories of their relationship not in Post-Crisis and certainly not in the New 52. Who really wants that anyway?

----------


## millernumber1

> Given how Dick broke up with two girls before Season 2 began wanna bet Tim did the same and broke up with Cassie because not many people have fond memories of their relationship not in Post-Crisis and certainly not in the New 52. Who really wants that anyway?


I would be okay with that, but Dick and Tim are very different characters.  :Smile: 

And as a non-Teen Titans reader, I've always been really mystified by all the ships from that title.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I would be okay with that, but Dick and Tim are very different characters. 
> 
> And as a non-Teen Titans reader, I've always been really mystified by all the ships from that title.


Depends on what stage Tim is in the show the stage where he began trying compartmentalise things including relationships or is he still the fun everyman he appeared as not that he had much characterisation in the beginning of Season 2. I hope that they keep out the excess weight from the second season because that part was a disaster the only thing saving it was the Reach main plot and the subplots between Cheshire, Sportsmaster, Miss Martian, Kaldurahm, and Artemis. The only pairing that worked was Roy and Donna, Dick and Starfire, and  Raven and Beast Boy. But what is it about the ships that mystifies you?

----------


## millernumber1

> Depends on what stage Tim is in the show the stage where he began trying compartmentalise things including relationships or is he still the fun everyman he appeared as not that he had much characterisation in the beginning of Season 2. I hope that they keep out the excess weight from the second season because that part was a disaster the only thing saving it was the Reach main plot and the subplots between Cheshire, Sportsmaster, Miss Martian, Kaldurahm, and Artemis. The only pairing that worked was Roy and Donna, Dick and Starfire, and  Raven and Beast Boy. But what is it about the ships that mystifies you?


Well, to me, Robin was always the "defining" Tim title, but Teen Titans fans take Teen Titans as his defining title, which confuses me, because they seem very different to me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, to me, Robin was always the "defining" Tim title, but Teen Titans fans take Teen Titans as his defining title, which confuses me, because they seem very different to me.


Yeah Teen Titans is a team book so it's supposed to be about this large group of individuals not one person why should anyone think otherwise or is it because Damian has become the de facto Robin to the point Teen Titans is consider Tim's defining title especially after Robin was cancelled?

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah Teen Titans is a team book so it's supposed to be about this large group of individuals not one person why should anyone think otherwise or is it because Damian has become the de facto Robin to the point Teen Titans is consider Tim's defining title especially after Robin was cancelled?


I dunno. Like I said, not a Teen Titans reader.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I dunno. Like I said, not a Teen Titans reader.


I guess anyone I wonder whether DC is going to pull one of their weird moves and revived the Robin title or at least Red Robin Tam is back since she was a major supporting character and if Lynx is not going to return at least Stephanie can be Tim's partner and romantic interest again because Tam is too old for Tim. Well not that it stopped them before though she should be about twenty-ish.

----------


## millernumber1

> I guess anyone I wonder whether DC is going to pull one of their weird moves and revived the Robin title or at least Red Robin Tam is back since she was a major supporting character and if Lynx is not going to return at least Stephanie can be Tim's partner and romantic interest again because Tam is too old for Tim. Well not that it stopped them before though she should be about twenty-ish.


Well, I have a sad feeling that all this lovely setup for Tim and Steph and Tam is going to be ignored. I can hope that it's not, but I don't see any sign that it'll be picked up.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I have a sad feeling that all this lovely setup for Tim and Steph and Tam is going to be ignored. I can hope that it's not, but I don't see any sign that it'll be picked up.


True but there one more project Tynion is supposed to be doing and he never revealed it at Wonder Con. Maybe that's it? Unless it's the Justice League backup issues.

----------


## millernumber1

We shall see. We shall see. I think the only thing for Steph fans to look forward to is the Young Justice series...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> We shall see. We shall see. I think the only thing for Steph fans to look forward to is the Young Justice series...


Well that's true but once Stephanie becomes a hit in Young Justice and that's going to be very probable given how skilled Weisman is DC will want to jump on the synergy bandwagon and give her  a place in the DC Universe.

----------


## Assam

> We shall see. We shall see. I think the only thing for Steph fans to look forward to is the Young Justice series...


I'm telling you dude, it's really unlikely that Steph will be on that team. The YJ4 are a lock and that leaves at most 3 other spots. I just don't see Steph getting one of them. She may get guest spots like she did in the original book but I think that's it. 




> Well that's true but once Stephanie becomes a hit in Young Justice and that's going to be very probable given how skilled Weisman is DC will want to jump on the synergy bandwagon and give her  a place in the DC Universe.


The YJ animated show doesn't come back until very late this year or early NEXT year.

Also, DC doesn't usually care about synergy in that way.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that's true but once Stephanie becomes a hit in Young Justice and that's going to be very probable given how skilled Weisman is DC will want to jump on the synergy bandwagon and give her  a place in the DC Universe.


That's the hope.




> I'm telling you dude, it's really unlikely that Steph will be on that team. The YJ4 are a lock and that leaves at most 3 other spots. I just don't see Steph getting one of them. She may get guest spots like she did in the original book but I think that's it. 
> 
> The YJ animated show doesn't come back until very late this year or early NEXT year.
> 
> Also, DC doesn't usually care about synergy in that way.


I was talking about the animated show, not the (theoretical) comic.

Crushing my hopes...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm telling you dude, it's really unlikely that Steph will be on that team. The YJ4 are a lock and that leaves at most 3 other spots. I just don't see Steph getting one of them. She may get guest spots like she did in the original book but I think that's it. 
> 
> 
> 
> The YJ animated show doesn't come back until very late this year or early NEXT year.
> 
> Also, DC doesn't usually care about synergy in that way.


It took two years for Stephanie to come back and no one not even Chuck Dixon the man who asked for her to come back knows why it even happened this may not be new. With Nightwing as Stephanie's mentor in Young Justice I'd say a spot is guaranteed.

----------


## Assam

> I was talking about the animated show, not the (theoretical) comic.


My bad. 




> It took two years for Stephanie to come back and no one not even Chuck Dixon the man who asked for her to come back knows why it even happened this may not be new. With Nightwing as Stephanie's mentor in Young Justice I'd say a spot is guaranteed.


I'm really not sure what you're saying in that first sentence. As for the second sentence, again, that has nothing to do with the comics.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm really not sure what you're saying in that first sentence. As for the second sentence, again, that has nothing to do with the comics.


I mean Stephanie's character had survived worse things like being killed off for two years and still came allowing her to salvage her reputation. And whatever comes next for her in Detective Comics could be as bad if not worse and she could still come back.

----------


## Assam

> I mean Stephanie's character had survived worse things like being killed off for two years and still came allowing her to salvage her reputation. And whatever comes next for her in Detective Comics could be as bad if not worse and she could still come back.


Oh, yeah. No matter what happens in the next few months, this isn't the endtimes for Steph. Even though Tynion may have damaged her fanbase severely, she's never going away for good. But extended limbo is still awful.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh, yeah. No matter what happens in the next few months, this isn't the endtimes for Steph. Even though Tynion may have damaged her fanbase severely, she's never going away for good. But extended limbo is still awful.


It's better than being dead because it means Stephanie can't be used being in limbo on the other hand allows her to be used in cameos which at least allows fans to know she exist.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's better than being dead because it means Stephanie can't be used being in limbo on the other hand allows her to be used in cameos which at least allows fans to know she exist.


Yup! And here's hoping that she'll have a good status quo coming out of Tec, so that people will want to use her.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yup! And here's hoping that she'll have a good status quo coming out of Tec, so that people will want to use her.


When I read the new Detective Comics issue it does read like Tynion is actually trying in some way to fix the damage he did here's hoping that that involves Stephanie as well.

----------


## AlvinDraper

I'm always happy to check this thread, its make me remember why I love Steph. Also, a question...that cover with Steph, Cass and Bruce, and the Batgirl shadows was revealed??

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm always happy to check this thread, its make me remember why I love Steph. Also, a question...that cover with Steph, Cass and Bruce, and the Batgirl shadows was revealed??


It has not been officially revealed yet. But Dying Detective suggested that it could be part of the future files that the General has.

And thanks for dropping by! Steph is a great character to love, and hopefully we'll get some better stories for her soon. (And her Batgirl stories are all in print again! Hooray!)

----------


## adrikito

UFFF... I was a little scared... I was thinking that in YJ animated show..

----------


## millernumber1

Dying Detective's idea has made me think a bit more...

Anyone think that sort of as payback for Anarky and the Victim Syndicate stealing her phone data, Steph might steal the General's data, and that's how she sees the future with Cass?

----------


## adrikito

> Dying Detective's idea has made me think a bit more...
> 
> Anyone think that sort of as payback for Anarky and the Victim Syndicate stealing her phone data, Steph might steal the General's data, and that's how she sees the future with Cass?


I heard that Kate betraying Batman is the future, that Tim saw the future..... Tynion will use the same way for show the girls future? Until news about Steph and Cass here, I can´t return(for then, leave this again)..

And that this chapter maybe showed the reason of this. Brother Eye manipulated the colony attacking Batman.. and then, maybe the things were worst and Batman die.. So, Kate and Batman Tim are something like Batman and Superman in Injustice universe..


BUT HERE... THEY WILL DESTROY THE BROTHER EYE..

----------


## millernumber1

> I heard that Kate betraying Batman is the future, that Tim saw the future..... Tynion will use the same way for show the girls future? Until news about Steph and Cass here, I can´t return(for then, leave this again)..
> 
> And that this chapter maybe showed the reason of this. Brother Eye manipulated the colony attacking Batman.. and then, maybe the things were worst and Batman die.. So, Kate and Batman Tim are something like Batman and Superman in Injustice universe..
> 
> 
> BUT HERE... THEY WILL DESTROY THE BROTHER EYE..


Well, I'm a Tim fan, so even without Best Steph, I really enjoyed this issue.

I do hope that Steph has a part to play in destroying the Evil Eye.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> It has not been officially revealed yet. But Dying Detective suggested that it could be part of the future files that the General has.
> 
> And thanks for dropping by! Steph is a great character to love, and hopefully we'll get some better stories for her soon. (And her Batgirl stories are all in print again! Hooray!)


oh, that's actually interesting...
and yes, she's great and I just love her character so freaking much! Probably one of the reasons I read all of the Robin run

----------


## millernumber1

> oh, that's actually interesting...
> and yes, she's great and I just love her character so freaking much! Probably one of the reasons I read all of the Robin run


Yes! Steph makes Robin so much better. I'm hopeful that all of her appearances in Robin will be included in the Robin Reprints...

----------


## millernumber1

Okay, get ready for a bunch of posts by me! Because it's AWESOMECON DAY ONE TIME! (At least, the parts that had to do with Steph. Which are most of them. Because it's me.  Hahahaha!)

I started out getting my Superman Wedding Album and a couple other random comics I have signed by Jurgens, then wandered over to the DC aisle. I was really surprised, because Tom King and Clay Mann were already there signing things - I didn't think they had a signing until 4. So I was thrilled, and got right in line!

Last year, Tom King was very disappointed in my complete inability to stop grinning like a lunatic while he tried to make me put on a tough guy face. This year...it wasn't much more successful.

King tough.jpg

I got my two favorite issues by King that I don't have signed (my very favorite is Grayson #12, but I got that signed two years ago, first time I saw him) - Batman #32 - Catwoman's answer to Batman's proposal, and Batman Annual #2.

King signed.jpg

I decided to thank him for putting Steph in a Batman comic, and he said it was only one panel, but I said that the panel was great! I'm pretty sure this isn't actually going to change anyone's opinion, but I think I may have found out why Cass isn't present at Bruce's deathbed. King said that all of the characters present were Robins. He tried to convince me that Duke was a Robin (and I was like, of course he was a Robin - he was in We Are Robin for a year!) He wasn't quite sure why Babs was there, or Helena, but I said that it's been 20 years, Helena was probably Robin at some point (I forgot to mention Earth 2 to support this, but I think it's pretty sensible). There's something dependent about a Robin that isn't quite the same for a Batgirl, I think King's logic is.

TBC!

----------


## millernumber1

Sitting right next to King was Clay Mann, who was very nice. I handed him five comics to sign, though they're all just covers (I don't have any comics which were interiors from Mann), and he specifically mentioned that he remembered the Batgirl: Future's End cover. I asked him about the lenticular process, and he said that Babs, the League of Batgirls, and the Batsignal were all different pieces that editorial put together for the lenticular.

Mann signed.jpg

I wandered around for a bit, goggled at the HUGE line for Snyder/Capullo/Glapion, and when I got back to the aisle, I noticed that Josh Williamson and James Tynion were signing. So I immediately hopped in the Tynion line! I knew from last year I'd only get three comics signed (though I have three more prepped for tomorrow), so today was the Big Ones: the first one of the run, 934, 950, and 975.

Tynion signed.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

Since Tynion is my favorite DC writer working today, I also chatted with him, both during the first signing, and several hours later when I noticed he didn't have a line and wandered by to chat.

Also, I'm sharing my complete Tynion collection here:

2016:
Tynion 2016.jpg

2017:
Tynion 2017.jpg

2018:
Tynion 2018.jpg

I think I like his current hair the best of the three times I've seen him.

ANYWAY, on to the Steph!

I asked him about Steph's upcoming appearance, trying to word it so that the Steph fandom's...um...less than happy response to her current status quo was reflected without being a jerk. I think I said something like, "We Steph fans are sad that she's written off, so I was wondering if Steph fans will be happy with her upcoming appearance." From his response, I think he knows that Steph fans aren't happy. He said "Steph fans are very..." and then said he knows he can't make all Steph fans happy, but he's trying to put his view of what Steph means as a hero in her appearance in 980. He wanted to show me the cover of 980, but didn't have it on his phone (he was showing people pictures from NOPE JUSTICE, and I have to say, even though I hate the idea, I do LOVE Manapul and To's art a lot, so...it'll be very pretty, at least!). I told him that we'd seen bits of it from Fernandez's instagram stream (and also told him that we took the images down and stuff, so as not to get anyone in trouble), and that we were all very excited to see what the shadows behind Steph and Cass mean.

Several hours later, when I wandered by again, I finally asked him the "Was Harper supposed to be Steph or Cass?" question I've been wanting to ask forever. And he confirmed what I thought - no, Harper was not Steph or Cass originally. She was supposed to be in the tradition of Steph and Cass, but it wasn't the case that Snyder was denied the use of Steph or Cass and then created Harper. So, at least according to Tynion, that's the end of that rumor.  :Smile: 

I really love talking to King and Tynion - they're both such huge fans, and so humble and grateful to fans. You really get a sense that even though they're really smart and hardworking and know they have stuff to say, they don't put themselves above fans, and love what they're doing. Tynion also explained how completely disconnected he was from Gotham at this point - he didn't even know about the Wedding one-shots that Seeley's writing until they were solicited. So Harper's not coming back in Justice League Dark. When I said I was so happy to see Martinez on Justice League Dark with him, he just gushed about how Martinez was so great (and how all his artists were great), and how Martinez had the storytelling style that fit his own best (I think that's really true - if you look at a Martinez issue, and then look at almost any other artist, I think Martinez has lifted Tynion's work much more than most artists - except for Takara in Batman and Robin Eternal #13. That's another case of writer and artist really melding together in a wonderful comic. But I got all my favorite Takara issues signed the lats two times.)

He also mentioned that he's a huge fan of the Question, and would love to write a Question comic some day. He hauled out one of his purchases from the con - a massive stack of the O'Neil/Cowyn Question run, and was really excited to crack it open and read them. (I need to remember to ask him about if he's read Rucka's Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood, and The Question: Pipeline.)

He also said that Man-Bat is the only Gotham character he's touching right now. I asked him about which version he's using, and he indicated that it's a very Rebirth version - old and new mixed up, very much like how he handled Clayface. He said that Clayface was a very depressed character, and I asked if the tragedy of Clayface was planned from the beginning, because I noticed that it felt like a very planned out arc, and he confirmed it. Another fan and I both enthused about how much we loved Clayface and the tragic feeling of the ending, which I think made him happy (and it really is one of my favorite things he's done.)

I'm trying to think of more Steph questions to ask Tynion tomorrow, but am drawing a blank (especially since he definitely has no input on where she goes from here). I'm also hoping to brave the ridiculous line for Snyder tomorrow and try to thank him for bringing Steph back in Batman Eternal (I'm planning to get Batman Eternal #3 and #52 signed by him, since those are ones I know he actually did some writing in).

----------


## Frontier

I'll be honest miller, what most has my attention is being able to see you in the flesh and the sequential history of Tynion's facial hair  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I'll be honest miller, what most has my attention is being able to see you in the flesh and the sequential history of Tynion's facial hair .


Haha. Seems like every time I go to a con, I need a haircut.  :Smile: 

Tynion's facial hair does have a lot of variations, if you follow his twitter. Last year I thought it just looked less successful, so I'm glad to see it looking much better.

I'm a little bummed that we don't have the Spoiler action figure yet, so I could take pictures with her and Tynion.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Haha. Seems like every time I go to a con, I need a haircut. 
> 
> Tynion's facial hair does have a lot of variations, if you follow his twitter. Last year I thought it just looked less successful, so I'm glad to see it looking much better.
> 
> I'm a little bummed that we don't have the Spoiler action figure yet, so I could take pictures with her and Tynion.


Miller, in the flesh!!! He's real!!! 

Thanks for the Steph and Cass update! And yes, seeing King and Tynion and hearing their thoughts and you presenting them makes it all more real to me.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

The Gotham City Chronicles campaign is on its last 7 hours and there's still no Steph. Currently we're stuck at Duke. 




> I decided to thank him for putting Steph in a Batman comic, and he said it was only one panel, but I said that the panel was great! I'm pretty sure this isn't actually going to change anyone's opinion, but I think I may have found out why Cass isn't present at Bruce's deathbed. King said that all of the characters present were Robins. He tried to convince me that Duke was a Robin (and I was like, of course he was a Robin - he was in We Are Robin for a year!) He wasn't quite sure why Babs was there, or Helena, but I said that it's been 20 years, Helena was probably Robin at some point (I forgot to mention Earth 2 to support this, but I think it's pretty sensible). There's something dependent about a Robin that isn't quite the same for a Batgirl, I think King's logic is.


I don't buy it...but it _does_ take away my fears that he or DC have plans to get rid of her again. 




> Several hours later, when I wandered by again, I finally asked him the "Was Harper supposed to be Steph or Cass?" question I've been wanting to ask forever. And he confirmed what I thought - no, Harper was not Steph or Cass originally. She was supposed to be in the tradition of Steph and Cass, but it wasn't the case that Snyder was denied the use of Steph or Cass and then created Harper. So, at least according to Tynion, that's the end of that rumor.


Still don't believe him.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> a massive stack of the O'Neil/Cowyn Question run


I really need to read that run. 




> I'll be honest miller, what most has my attention is being able to see you in the flesh and the sequential history of Tynion's facial hair .


I've actually seen him in the flesh before. At least a few months ago, if you typed 'Freelance Artist' into Linkedin, he was the first result.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't buy it...but it _does_ take away my fears that he or DC have plans to get rid of her again.


So maybe if Tom King sees Stephanie as a Robin maybe he could use her at some point. And it's better than limbo.

----------


## millernumber1

> Miller, in the flesh!!! He's real!!! 
> 
> Thanks for the Steph and Cass update! And yes, seeing King and Tynion and hearing their thoughts and you presenting them makes it all more real to me.


Yup. I like getting signatures, but talking to those two in particular is just so much fun.




> The Gotham City Chronicles campaign is on its last 7 hours and there's still no Steph. Currently we're stuck at Duke. 
> 
> I don't buy it...but it _does_ take away my fears that he or DC have plans to get rid of her again. 
> 
> Still don't believe him. 
> 
> I really need to read that run. 
> 
> I've actually seen him in the flesh before. At least a few months ago, if you typed 'Freelance Artist' into Linkedin, he was the first result.


Yup. Their public relations guy has said that Harley Quinn is the last stretch goal, and that the box art was done without confirmation that Steph would be there. I've cancelled my pledge, because it sounds like they never had plans to include Steph, so when I asked on twitter and they said "maybe", they were completely lying. I'm not giving $300 after that.

Ah, well, what can I do. I'm thinking about asking Snyder the same question, but given what Tynion said, I doubt it'd be worth it.

The O'Neil/Cowyn run is very powerful, though I prefer Rucka's writing of the Question.

I'm a bit confused, though - I'm not on linkedin, at least I thought i wasn't. (But if you look at my blog or my twitter, I have several pictures of myself there.)




> So maybe if Tom King sees Stephanie as a Robin maybe he could use her at some point. And it's better than limbo.


Well, I think King still sees characters in terms of creator control. Though if Steph is in limbo, it's possible he'll see her as open.

----------


## Assam

> Yup. Their public relations guy has said that Harley Quinn is the last stretch goal, and that the box art was done without confirmation that Steph would be there. I've cancelled my pledge, because it sounds like they never had plans to include Steph, so when I asked on twitter and they said "maybe", they were completely lying. I'm not giving $300 after that.
> 
> Ah, well, what can I do. I'm thinking about asking Snyder the same question, but given what Tynion said, I doubt it'd be worth it.
> 
> The O'Neil/Cowyn run is very powerful, though I prefer Rucka's writing of the Question.
> 
> I'm a bit confused, though - I'm not on linkedin, at least I thought i wasn't. (But if you look at my blog or my twitter, I have several pictures of myself there.)


I'm definitely not giving the $300, just the base $140. Very disappointed that there isn't a BatgirlCass or any Steph, but I know I'll end up regretting not getting it if I don't. 

I especially want to read it because I'm a Shiva fan and people keep telling me that that run had Shiva at her very best character wise. 

Well apparently there's at least two guys named Ian Miller who look similar to one another.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm definitely not giving the $300, just the base $140. Very disappointed that there isn't a BatgirlCass or any Steph, but I know I'll end up regretting not getting it if I don't. 
> 
> I especially want to read it because I'm a Shiva fan and people keep telling me that that run had Shiva at her very best character wise.


Since there's no Steph, I'm not regretting it. Because they indicated that they were going to include her when I asked on day one, and then they revealed that they never really had plans at all, I know I'd regret it every time I played it if I did get it. So I just am going to avoid the whole emotional tangle. I don't really want to be THAT Steph fan, but I'm feeling really betrayed, and the whole thing is expensive enough that I'd rather save my money and get more Steph action figures from Wal-mart when they come out.

I haven't read more than about 5 of the issues, but Shiva in those issues is magnificent.

----------


## Assam

> Since there's no Steph, I'm not regretting it. Because they indicated that they were going to include her when I asked on day one, and then they revealed that they never really had plans at all, I know I'd regret it every time I played it if I did get it. So I just am going to avoid the whole emotional tangle. I don't really want to be THAT Steph fan, but I'm feeling really betrayed, and the whole thing is expensive enough that I'd rather save my money and get more Steph action figures from Wal-mart when they come out.


Oh no, I feel you. If Cass was the one being excluded, I definitely wouldn't support it. That said, you possibly shouldn't feel betrayed. It may just be him covering his tracks, but the guy who told you that later clarified that he was just speculating as has no idea what went on with her.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I think King still sees characters in terms of creator control. Though if Steph is in limbo, it's possible he'll see her as open.


With how big Tom King is he probably could ask for Stephanie any time he wanted to. But it's nice that he seems respectful to his co-workers. Also how's this for a question for Tynion? Will Stephanie be redeemed in this arc?

----------


## Katana500

It's really awesome you got to meet everyone MillerNumber1! That's really cool

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh no, I feel you. If Cass was the one being excluded, I definitely wouldn't support it. That said, you possibly shouldn't feel betrayed. It may just be him covering his tracks, but the guy who told you that later clarified that he was just speculating as has no idea what went on with her.


I feel betrayed because of the box art combined with the twitter interaction on day one. And the fact that they included so many ridiculous villains and alt-art versions of characters that already existed in the game.

----------


## adrikito

The true Miller in one image. I wear glasses too..

Steph opinion about what happened with her during the last year in Tynion run..


spoiler_alert__stephanie brown angry.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> The true Miller in one image. I wear glasses too..
> 
> Steph opinion about what happened with her during the last year in Tynion run..
> 
> 
> spoiler_alert__stephanie brown angry.jpg


Haha, that's a great pic. Who drew it?

Glasses wearing Steph fans, unite!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Final day of the con for me. Much less Steph news - I went with a friend today, and we did some quality wandering, bought some merch, scored some free stuff, and raised some blisters on our feet.

I did go through the King line again (pretty quick), got my Batman #800 and the Sgt. Rock story in the Holiday Special signed. No real news, but King is still so much fun to talk to.

I went through the Tynion line in my continuing quest to get my covers with Steph on them signed:

Tynion signed.jpg

I asked him if he'd read the Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood story by Rucka and Rick Burchett, and he said he has an old beat up trade of it. (I only have the singles, so I'm a bit jealous - though I do need to get myself the digitals one of these days. I guess I'm hoping they're collect them like the New Gotham stuff, in nice glossy or digital glory.) I also asked him about the Steph/Tim kiss in #969, whether it was supposed to mimic Steph's return in Robin, and he said yes, but also that it's supposed to call back to Batman's hug when Tim died in 940, and again in 947 at the end of the Victim Syndicate. I have to say, I think Tynion really loves to seed these key visuals in his books. He did it all through Batman Eternal with the image of someone threatening Cluemaster in front of Steph - first Batman, when she was a tiny child, and then Hush, when she finally becomes the Spoiler in #24.

I got in line for the Snyder/Capullo/Glapion signing at 3, and they started at 4. I was pretty early, but it was still 4:30 by the time I finished getting my comics signed. He was, as I expected from all interviews, incredibly nice and soft spoken. I kind of wish I had at least some of The Black Mirror in singles or trade, as I completely and unreservedly love that story with my whole heart. But I have it digitally - gorgeous and lasting, so I don't regret that, but I do regret the fact that I quite honestly don't love anything else he's done nearly as much, so I felt pretty awkward without something to be super enthusiastic about. However, since I was getting him to sign Batman Eternal #3 and #52 (which I'm pretty sure he did at least a pass of rewrites on, since he mentioned liking the chance to write Steph's dialogue, and the scenes in issue 52 where Gordon gives the speech read like pure Snyder to me), I thanked him from bringing Steph back four years ago. He pointed over at Tynion, and said it was all him, but I still thanked him. He was also super nice and signed four issues without charging me, though I had arranged it so he would only sign the three they were letting people have for free.

Snyder signed.jpg

As I expected, the highlights of the con were definitely Tynion and King - they are such a joy to talk to. But no bad experiences with creators at all this year (unlike two years ago, with completely different people). No Steph cosplays located, but lots of awesome ones.

This is my third con, and I don't know when I'll get to do another one, especially one with people who directly worked on Steph (unless I get a chance to do a Florida con for Dixon or a California con where one of BQM's shows is getting some press and he shows up and I suprise him with MASSIVE numbers of Batgirl books to sign...I can dream, even though I have no intention of crossing the country for that). I'm really glad it was a good one!

----------


## WontonGirl

> Final day of the con for me. Much less Steph news - I went with a friend today, and we did some quality wandering, bought some merch, scored some free stuff, and raised some blisters on our feet.
> 
> I did go through the King line again (pretty quick), got my Batman #800 and the Sgt. Rock story in the Holiday Special signed. No real news, but King is still so much fun to talk to.
> 
> I went through the Tynion line in my continuing quest to get my covers with Steph on them signed:
> 
> Tynion signed.jpg
> 
> I asked him if he'd read the Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood story by Rucka and Rick Burchett, and he said he has an old beat up trade of it. (I only have the singles, so I'm a bit jealous - though I do need to get myself the digitals one of these days. I guess I'm hoping they're collect them like the New Gotham stuff, in nice glossy or digital glory.) I also asked him about the Steph/Tim kiss in #969, whether it was supposed to mimic Steph's return in Robin, and he said yes, but also that it's supposed to call back to Batman's hug when Tim died in 940, and again in 947 at the end of the Victim Syndicate. I have to say, I think Tynion really loves to seed these key visuals in his books. He did it all through Batman Eternal with the image of someone threatening Cluemaster in front of Steph - first Batman, when she was a tiny child, and then Hush, when she finally becomes the Spoiler in #24.
> ...


I'm glad you had a great time! Thanks so much for the updates. Perhaps we will get to see Steph and Cass in something soon.  :Big Grin:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm glad you had a great time! Thanks so much for the updates. Perhaps we will get to see Steph and Cass in something soon.


Thanks! Hope they were enjoyable - I tried to keep them mostly Steph focused - there's a bunch of stuff I didn't mention.  :Smile: 

Well, we have Tec 980 for Steph and Cass, and then Hill is at least using Cass going for 5 issues. Tynion didn't say he WASN'T using Steph, and he did say that Hill and whoever is coming after will likely be using them, but he's really out of the loop, so I don't think that means much.

(You know where we're not going to see Steph, though? That frikken game. Arg. I'm torturing myself my reading through the comments section. I've made it through 13 hours of comment archives, and there are 41 people hopeful for Steph - some because they love her, a few because she's on the cover - and 11 really nasty trolls making fun of those fans.)

I really need to find something to distract me from this.  Hmmm.

There we go! A really lovely bit of Tim/Steph shipping from lots of great comics: http://incoherentbabblings.tumblr.co...-is-warm-and-i

I love that it includes the Dixon era, Lewis era, Convergence, and two really nice images from the Tynion era.

----------


## Chickfighter

> The true Miller in one image. I wear glasses too..
> 
> Steph opinion about what happened with her during the last year in Tynion run..
> 
> 
> spoiler_alert__stephanie brown angry.jpg


Yeah, love that image!

----------


## millernumber1

This came up in my queue today, and I thought it was really lovely. The idea of Steph, all by herself, looking at the sky when a villain blacks out the city, just for a moment, then jumping back into the fray.

http://angergirl.tumblr.com/post/721...d-see-stars-in

Steph sky.jpg

----------


## The Dying Detective

> This came up in my queue today, and I thought it was really lovely. The idea of Steph, all by herself, looking at the sky when a villain blacks out the city, just for a moment, then jumping back into the fray.
> 
> http://angergirl.tumblr.com/post/721...d-see-stars-in
> 
> Steph sky.jpg


Interesting the picture's story definitely conveys Stephanie's personality.

----------


## millernumber1

> Interesting the picture's story definitely conveys Stephanie's personality.


Well, I made up the story.  :Smile:  So I hope it fits her!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I made up the story.  So I hope it fits her!


Ever considered becoming a writer or something?

----------


## millernumber1

> Ever considered becoming a writer or something?


Nope! I write fanfic like once every years, and sadly don't finish a lot (https://archiveofourown.org/users/mi.../millernumber1 SHAMELESS self promotion).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Nope! I write fanfic like once every years, and sadly don't finish a lot (https://archiveofourown.org/users/mi.../millernumber1 SHAMELESS self promotion).


Ah I used to write fanfictions as well and a lot of my projects were never finished so here's my own shameless self promotion with only two finished stories: https://www.fanfiction.net/~honorthief

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah I used to write fanfictions as well and a lot of my projects were never finished so here's my own shameless self promotion with only two finished stories: https://www.fanfiction.net/~honorthief


Awesome! Well, feel free to do more shameless self promotion here if you write some Steph fic!  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Awesome! Well, feel free to do more shameless self promotion here if you write some Steph fic!


I most certainly will though y White Knight plans could qualify as a Stephanie fanfiction even though she, Tim, and Cassandra Cain all share top billing in it.

----------


## millernumber1

> I most certainly will though y White Knight plans could qualify as a Stephanie fanfiction even though she, Tim, and Cassandra Cain all share top billing in it.


Definitely!

----------


## KrustyKid

> Ah I used to write fanfictions as well and a lot of my projects were never finished so here's my own shameless self promotion with only two finished stories: https://www.fanfiction.net/~honorthief


Nice to know there are some more fanfic writers on here besides me.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nice to know there are some more fanfic writers on here besides me.


Of course! We're on the internet talking about stories we love! Odds are there's a bunch of us. Do you have any good Steph fics (written or just ones you liked reading)?  :Smile:

----------


## Daniel22

Slowly reading through vol 2 of the Bryan Q. Miller Batgirl run (trying to make it last). I knew I really liked this run but I forgot how much. It's such a great blend of humor, action, character... Some done-in-one stories (a lost art, it seems sometimes)... Steph is likable and charming without being overly sweet or perfect... 

When I'm finally anointed "The King Of Comics" one of my first acts will be having BQM write a Steph ongoing again.

----------


## millernumber1

> Slowly reading through vol 2 of the Bryan Q. Miller Batgirl run (trying to make it last). I knew I really liked this run but I forgot how much. It's such a great blend of humor, action, character... Some done-in-one stories (a lost art, it seems sometimes)... Steph is likable and charming without being overly sweet or perfect... 
> 
> When I'm finally anointed "The King Of Comics" one of my first acts will be having BQM write a Steph ongoing again.


And the thing about the done-in-one stories is that they are important for the continuing arc! The Supergirl team up? A helpful character leads to a plot thread with the Reapers, and connects to Steph's growing support network outside of Team Batgirl. The Clayface issue? Reveals things about Nick's character. I don't know how much the Valentine's Day issue deals with the overall plot, but even the going to England issue connects to Steph's relationship with Bruce and clearly impacts the development of the Reaper plot. I really, really wish there were more runs structured like this (though I think they probably should be solo rather than team books - just a feeling. Tom King is doing some things like this in Batman, I think.)

If I can but serves as lowly Secretary of the Batgirls under your Kingship, I shall do all in my power to make this dream come true!  :Smile:

----------


## Daniel22

> And the thing about the done-in-one stories is that they are important for the continuing arc! The Supergirl team up? A helpful character leads to a plot thread with the Reapers, and connects to Steph's growing support network outside of Team Batgirl. The Clayface issue? Reveals things about Nick's character. I don't know how much the Valentine's Day issue deals with the overall plot, but even the going to England issue connects to Steph's relationship with Bruce and clearly impacts the development of the Reaper plot. I really, really wish there were more runs structured like this (though I think they probably should be solo rather than team books - just a feeling. Tom King is doing some things like this in Batman, I think.)
> 
> If I can but serves as lowly Secretary of the Batgirls under your Kingship, I shall do all in my power to make this dream come true!


It's really masterful how he does that, uses one and two part stories while having an overarching narrative along with long-form subplots... It used to be the norm, that you would get a complete story in every comic. Seems crazy but it's true, kids! He seemed to be an early adapter to the seasonal model of comics. His first year or season was "Batgirl Rising" and season two was "The Lesson". I really think more comics should adapt this seasonal format.  I agree that King uses individual issues very well. 

You are appointed! Pending my ascension, of course, but I'm sure that's just a matter of time.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's really masterful how he does that, uses one and two part stories while having an overarching narrative along with long-form subplots... It used to be the norm, that you would get a complete story in every comic. Seems crazy but it's true, kids! He seemed to be an early adapter to the seasonal model of comics. His first year or season was "Batgirl Rising" and season two was "The Lesson". I really think more comics should adapt this seasonal format.  I agree that King uses individual issues very well. 
> 
> You are appointed! Pending my ascension, of course, but I'm sure that's just a matter of time.


Of course, your Majesty-in-waiting!  :Smile: 

I do think that this 24 or Netflix style "we're trying to make 13 or 24-hour movies" instead of the more Veronica Mars or Buffy the Vampire Slayer style constructed serial narratives is destructive to the ability of comics to entice new readers. Without a satisfaction every week, or at least every few issues, why should a new reader bother to try an ongoing title, instead just waiting for the trade?

I'm so pleased that DC is collecting things like Steph's Batgirl, Cass's Batgirl, and Tim's Robin. Hopefully it'll expose new readers to this style of writing, and inspire them to become like James Tynion IV and join the writing stable, but write more like Dixon and Miller and Puckett.  :Smile:

----------


## Daniel22

> Of course, your Majesty-in-waiting! 
> 
> I do think that this 24 or Netflix style "we're trying to make 13 or 24-hour movies" instead of the more Veronica Mars or Buffy the Vampire Slayer style constructed serial narratives is destructive to the ability of comics to entice new readers. Without a satisfaction every week, or at least every few issues, why should a new reader bother to try an ongoing title, instead just waiting for the trade?
> 
> I'm so pleased that DC is collecting things like Steph's Batgirl, Cass's Batgirl, and Tim's Robin. Hopefully it'll expose new readers to this style of writing, and inspire them to become like James Tynion IV and join the writing stable, but write more like Dixon and Miller and Puckett.


Are they still collecting Cass? I haven't seen anything beyond vol. 3 of the Puckett run in a long while. I really hope they haven't discontinued that. Same with Birds of Prey, we got three volumes and that's it. I REALLY want them to finish that whole series, as some Simone trades are really pricey.

----------


## millernumber1

> Are they still collecting Cass? I haven't seen anything beyond vol. 3 of the Puckett run in a long while. I really hope they haven't discontinued that. Same with Birds of Prey, we got three volumes and that's it. I REALLY want them to finish that whole series, as some Simone trades are really pricey.


No, I think Cass and Birds of Prey are stalled (and Rucka's first Wonder Woman run). I'm really mad about it, but...to be fair, I haven't bought them either. Because I was waiting for the Simone collections, because those are the ones I really want. (I did buy both Steph trades digitally, since I already have them in hard copy, but not digitally).

I personally would recommend getting Simone's Birds of Prey run digitally anyway, because it was mostly on newsprint, and thus it's pretty faded these days. I have a couple of precious issues from her run, including the very first issue, and it's not in very good shape. So I rebought them on comixology, and it's a great reading experience if you have a good reading device.

Plus, you support creators more directly through digital than buying on the used market (I have nothing against the used market, though - I bought all of Steph's original trades and singles that I collected through ebay.)

----------


## Daniel22

> No, I think Cass and Birds of Prey are stalled (and Rucka's first Wonder Woman run). I'm really mad about it, but...to be fair, I haven't bought them either. Because I was waiting for the Simone collections, because those are the ones I really want. (I did buy both Steph trades digitally, since I already have them in hard copy, but not digitally).
> 
> I personally would recommend getting Simone's Birds of Prey run digitally anyway, because it was mostly on newsprint, and thus it's pretty faded these days. I have a couple of precious issues from her run, including the very first issue, and it's not in very good shape. So I rebought them on comixology, and it's a great reading experience if you have a good reading device.
> 
> Plus, you support creators more directly through digital than buying on the used market (I have nothing against the used market, though - I bought all of Steph's original trades and singles that I collected through ebay.)


That's a shame... and I didn't know that about Rucka's run, I assumed it was continuing. I really liked the first two volumes.  I guess the best I can hope for now is that they re-release Simone's run as a new collection. They gave her Sinister Six run a nice Complete Collection treatment so it's possible her BoP gets one too.. Not as hopeful that Cass' run gets continued, which is a real bummer.

I'm a firm supporter of physical comics, for a few reasons. I'm always glad whenever people read and enjoy comics, whatever the format, and have nothing against digital, it's just really not for me. I do think it's awesome that so many comics that otherwise are hard/expensive to find are available digitally. And who knows, maybe one day I'll go digital (Marvel Unlimited seems amazing), but for now I'm just not there yet.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's a shame... and I didn't know that about Rucka's run, I assumed it was continuing. I really liked the first two volumes.  I guess the best I can hope for now is that they re-release Simone's run as a new collection. They gave her Sinister Six run a nice Complete Collection treatment so it's possible her BoP gets one too.. Not as hopeful that Cass' run gets continued, which is a real bummer.
> 
> I'm a firm supporter of physical comics, for a few reasons. I'm always glad whenever people read and enjoy comics, whatever the format, and have nothing against digital, it's just really not for me. I do think it's awesome that so many comics that otherwise are hard/expensive to find are available digitally. And who knows, maybe one day I'll go digital (Marvel Unlimited seems amazing), but for now I'm just not there yet.


Well, it's been much longer since vol 2 was released, and no announcement of 3. I check every month, and am really annoyed, since it's my favorite Wonder Woman run of all time.

I really wish DC did an unlimited thing. Seriously. I'd be willing to wait for new comics if they did a monthly fee that's less than my pull list. Sadly, there's still tons of amazing comics that aren't available digitally.

Thankfully, almost all of Steph's stuff is available now!

----------


## Daniel22

> Well, it's been much longer since vol 2 was released, and no announcement of 3. I check every month, and am really annoyed, since it's my favorite Wonder Woman run of all time.
> 
> I really wish DC did an unlimited thing. Seriously. I'd be willing to wait for new comics if they did a monthly fee that's less than my pull list. Sadly, there's still tons of amazing comics that aren't available digitally.
> 
> Thankfully, almost all of Steph's stuff is available now!


DC has stopped a bunch of collections, including the Specter and the Demon. Although maybe the plan was to only do the Ostrander Specter.. Since they are doing his Suicide Squad, that makes sense maybe. Dixon must have an amazing agent, his stuff is ALWAYS getting reprinted. I get that he was a huge contributor, but you would think he's the only person who wrote in the Bat-verse during the 90's.

I think I have pretty much all of the Steph stuff that is available in trade. As for floppies... harder to say. I'm a few years behind on getting really reorganized. I keep telling myself "It only LOOKS like random longboxes and bags of comics jammed into every empty space.. "

----------


## millernumber1

> DC has stopped a bunch of collections, including the Specter and the Demon. Although maybe the plan was to only do the Ostrander Specter.. Since they are doing his Suicide Squad, that makes sense maybe. Dixon must have an amazing agent, his stuff is ALWAYS getting reprinted. I get that he was a huge contributor, but you would think he's the only person who wrote in the Bat-verse during the 90's.
> 
> I think I have pretty much all of the Steph stuff that is available in trade. As for floppies... harder to say. I'm a few years behind on getting really reorganized. I keep telling myself "It only LOOKS like random longboxes and bags of comics jammed into every empty space.. "


I think Dixon's stuff is reprinted because it sells well. That's probably why the other ones stopped - not selling as well. I don't think he has an agent who works with DC anymore, sadly.  I personally think he's the best and most consistent writer of the Bat-verse in the 90s.  :Smile: 

Haha. I only have 1.5 longboxes, and I'm still trying to figure out how to organize. I should probably spreadsheet these things before I get too much farther.  :Smile:

----------


## Daniel22

> I think Dixon's stuff is reprinted because it sells well. That's probably why the other ones stopped - not selling as well. I don't think he has an agent who works with DC anymore, sadly.  I personally think he's the best and most consistent writer of the Bat-verse in the 90s. 
> 
> Haha. I only have 1.5 longboxes, and I'm still trying to figure out how to organize. I should probably spreadsheet these things before I get too much farther.


He's doing "Bane: Conquest" currently so I guess he still has a good relationship with DC. I'm glad he gets a lot of stuff reprinted, I just wish they would collect a wider variety of stuff. I guess that's either all coming in time or they are only planning on having it available digitally...

There's an app you can get that helps you organize your stuff. I think all you have to do is scan the current issues and it catalogs it for you, you don't even have to type anything in. Don't make the same mistake I did... get it organized now before it's too much. It's too late for me but you can still save yourself.

----------


## millernumber1

> He's doing "Bane: Conquest" currently so I guess he still has a good relationship with DC. I'm glad he gets a lot of stuff reprinted, I just wish they would collect a wider variety of stuff. I guess that's either all coming in time or they are only planning on having it available digitally...
> 
> There's an app you can get that helps you organize your stuff. I think all you have to do is scan the current issues and it catalogs it for you, you don't even have to type anything in. Don't make the same mistake I did... get it organized now before it's too much. It's too late for me but you can still save yourself.


From what I understand, DC is obligated to offer Dixon and Nolan any solo Bane series first. So I don't think he really has a great relationship with them. Evidence for that is that even though he's doing Bane, he's not doing anything else, even one-shots, which he would love.

The thing about Dixon is he is so consistent and wrote so many straight runs, that it's easy to collect. There's a bunch of titles that had rotating or short runs that aren't that appealing to collect.

Since Dixon wrote most of the Steph content in the 90s, I don't mind.  :Smile: 

Hmm. I don't like apps so much. I prefer to make my own spreadsheets in my nice google drive. I already have an enormous spreadsheet for Steph's appearances.

----------


## Daniel22

> From what I understand, DC is obligated to offer Dixon and Nolan any solo Bane series first. So I don't think he really has a great relationship with them. Evidence for that is that even though he's doing Bane, he's not doing anything else, even one-shots, which he would love.
> 
> The thing about Dixon is he is so consistent and wrote so many straight runs, that it's easy to collect. There's a bunch of titles that had rotating or short runs that aren't that appealing to collect.
> 
> Since Dixon wrote most of the Steph content in the 90s, I don't mind. 
> 
> Hmm. I don't like apps so much. I prefer to make my own spreadsheets in my nice google drive. I already have an enormous spreadsheet for Steph's appearances.


That's interesting, I didn't know that about Dixon. I think you're right about why Dixon gets collected a lot. He also started a lot of titles, so when they start at the beginning, he was the author.

The thought of trying to spreadsheet my basement and closet and office and other closet full of comics gives me hives...I just don't have the patience. But if I had only started at the beginning, I would love to see what exactly I have. 

Is there a good online archive of Steph's appearances you would recommend?

----------


## Digifiend

Saw this on Reddit, from Batgirl #14


Why did the artist have to make Steph and Kara look like twins?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Saw this on Reddit, from Batgirl #14
> 
> 
> Why did the artist have to make Steph and Kara look like twins?


They could have been sister I tell you.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's interesting, I didn't know that about Dixon. I think you're right about why Dixon gets collected a lot. He also started a lot of titles, so when they start at the beginning, he was the author.
> 
> The thought of trying to spreadsheet my basement and closet and office and other closet full of comics gives me hives...I just don't have the patience. But if I had only started at the beginning, I would love to see what exactly I have. 
> 
> Is there a good online archive of Steph's appearances you would recommend?


Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Yup! I've spent the last four years compiling as thorough and helpful a list of all of Steph's appearances on the Steph Wikia (linked in my signature). I'm pretty sure it's complete at this point, and it's ongoing with Rebirth, so whenever I hear of a new one, I update the wikia with it.

And if you do check out the wikia, please to let me know if there's something you think would make it better!




> Saw this on Reddit, from Batgirl #14
> 
> 
> Why did the artist have to make Steph and Kara look like twins?


To be fair to poor Lee Garbett, a lot of artists only have one or two male and female faces, and so their characters tend to look quite similar.

----------


## Daniel22

> Saw this on Reddit, from Batgirl #14
> 
> 
> Why did the artist have to make Steph and Kara look like twins?


I just reread that issue last night! One of my favorite issues from that entire run. Had a few laugh out loud moments. MAN I miss BQM! I'm glad he's doing great in TV apparently but I really wish he'd come back and write Steph or Teen Titans or Damian or really anyone or anything.

----------


## Assam

> Why did the artist have to make Steph and Kara look like twins?


One of the numerous problems that made late-2000's DC suck so much? Nearly every active female teen hero (most especially the prominent ones) was an indistinguishable perky, blonde, blue eyed white girl. Steph, Kara, Courtney, Mia, Cassie etc.

----------


## Daniel22

> Ahahahahahahahahaha.
> 
> Yup! I've spent the last four years compiling as thorough and helpful a list of all of Steph's appearances on the Steph Wikia (linked in my signature). I'm pretty sure it's complete at this point, and it's ongoing with Rebirth, so whenever I hear of a new one, I update the wikia with it.
> 
> And if you do check out the wikia, please to let me know if there's something you think would make it better!
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair to poor Lee Garbett, a lot of artists only have one or two male and female faces, and so their characters tend to look quite similar.


Thanks! I'll definitely check out your page.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just reread that issue last night! One of my favorite issues from that entire run. Had a few laugh out loud moments. MAN I miss BQM! I'm glad he's doing great in TV apparently but I really wish he'd come back and write Steph or Teen Titans or Damian or really anyone or anything.


SAME. The lament of nearly all Steph fans...




> Thanks! I'll definitely check out your page.


It's not just mine! I must give credit to my collaborators who have either laid the foundation or helped me with my massive updating project.  :Smile: 

But I am admin, and most frequent updater.

----------


## Daniel22

> SAME. The lament of nearly all Steph fans...
> 
> 
> 
> It's not just mine! I must give credit to my collaborators who have either laid the foundation or helped me with my massive updating project. 
> 
> But I am admin, and most frequent updater.


Or if we could just get another great run of solo Steph, by another writer..it would lessen the sting of my favorite run being eight years and two universes ago. But I know there are tons of fanbases (Legion, Shazam,JSA) who are in the same (or worse) boat.

----------


## millernumber1

> Or if we could just get another great run of solo Steph, by another writer..it would lessen the sting of my favorite run being eight years and two universes ago. But I know there are tons of fanbases (Legion, Shazam,JSA) who are in the same (or worse) boat.


Yeah. It would lessen that sting. Though I think a great smaller (two or three main characters) team book, like a League of Batgirls, or Birds of Prey, which starred Steph, would be similarly good.

----------


## Daniel22

> Yeah. It would lessen that sting. Though I think a great smaller (two or three main characters) team book, like a League of Batgirls, or Birds of Prey, which starred Steph, would be similarly good.


Oh yeah I'd totally be down for that! I'm hoping that with this version of BoP ending we get a new version with Steph, Cass and Black Canary. I'd like to see Dinah take over the mentor role from Barbara. It would be a cool shift in the BoP dynamic.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah I'd totally be down for that! I'm hoping that with this version of BoP ending we get a new version with Steph, Cass and Black Canary. I'd like to see Dinah take over the mentor role from Barbara. It would be a cool shift in the BoP dynamic.


Dinah mentoring Steph again would definitely be in my Top Ten of things I'd love to see.  :Smile: 

There was a ton of speculation at the end of Batgirl in the n52 that Birds of Prey would relaunch with Babs and Dinah mentoring Steph, Cass, and Harper. Though that didn't happen, I still think it could be good, though as we've seen with Tec, a five man team is pretty rough on the characters in terms of panel time.

----------


## Assam

> Oh yeah I'd totally be down for that! I'm hoping that with this version of BoP ending we get a new version with Steph, Cass and Black Canary. I'd like to see Dinah take over the mentor role from Barbara. It would be a cool shift in the BoP dynamic.


I'm not sure anything could top Sin teaching Barda about Pokemon, but Cass babysitting Sin is something I've long wanted to see. 




> though as we've seen with Tec, a five man team is pretty rough on the characters in terms of panel time.


'Tec has always had at least six, but either way, it really doesn't. Decompressed storytelling does make it harder for team books to work but some recent examples of it still being possible are NSMatJLC, 5 leads and a regular supporting cast, and the Nu52 Secret Six.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm not sure anything could top Sin teaching Barda about Pokemon, but Cass babysitting Sin is something I've long wanted to see. 
> 
> 'Tec has always had at least six, but either way, it really doesn't. Decompressed storytelling does make it harder for team books to work but some recent examples of it still being possible are NSMatJLC, 5 leads and a regular supporting cast, and the Nu52 Secret Six.


Um. Let's just say I disagree, since this isn't a Secret Six thread.

----------


## Daniel22

> I'm not sure anything could top Sin teaching Barda about Pokemon, but Cass babysitting Sin is something I've long wanted to see. 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Tec has always had at least six, but either way, it really doesn't. Decompressed storytelling does make it harder for team books to work but some recent examples of it still being possible are NSMatJLC, 5 leads and a regular supporting cast, and the Nu52 Secret Six.


Such a great scene, one of many.

Usually I'm against going backwards, but a return of Simone, writing a new BoP series starring Dinah, Steph and Cass, is one of the things I'd most like to see in all of comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> Such a great scene, one of many.
> 
> Usually I'm against going backwards, but a return of Simone, writing a new BoP series starring Dinah, Steph and Cass, is one of the things I'd most like to see in all of comics.


Eh. I don't think Simone's current output indicates an interest in a Steph or Cass ongoing. Based on what she did with her Babs ongoing, I think she wants to do a villains book more than any hero book (same goes for her Nightwing/Oracle Convergence issue). Unless she gets a chance to do Moon Girl or her own version of her, Tiffany Fox. I don't really want Steph (or Cass or Babs or any hero) constantly upstaged by the villains.

----------


## Daniel22

> Eh. I don't think Simone's current output indicates an interest in a Steph or Cass ongoing. Based on what she did with her Babs ongoing, I think she wants to do a villains book more than any hero book (same goes for her Nightwing/Oracle Convergence issue). Unless she gets a chance to do Moon Girl or her own version of her, Tiffany Fox. I don't really want Steph (or Cass or Babs or any hero) constantly upstaged by the villains.


Fair enough. I didn't get that sense during her New 52 Batgirl run, but Simone is one of my absolute favorite writers, and I love reading about villains, so my mileage seems to have varied in that case.

----------


## millernumber1

> Fair enough. I didn't get that sense during her New 52 Batgirl run, but Simone is one of my absolute favorite writers, and I love reading about villains, so my mileage seems to have varied in that case.


I haven't read anything from Simone that I've loved in probably about 10 years. I like some things - her first run on Secret Six, her Convergence and Future's End stuff, Conan/Wonder Woman - but none of them capture my heart the way her first fifty issues on Birds of Prey do.

(I have a special caveat for her Batgirl: Future's End one-shot - the Steph part was perfect, but the Babs stuff was just silly.)

----------


## KrustyKid

> Of course! We're on the internet talking about stories we love! Odds are there's a bunch of us. Do you have any good Steph fics (written or just ones you liked reading)?


Steph's actually set to appear in one of my current fanfics. As far as suggestions, hmmmm.. I'll have to think about that one.

----------


## Daniel22

> I haven't read anything from Simone that I've loved in probably about 10 years. I like some things - her first run on Secret Six, her Convergence and Future's End stuff, Conan/Wonder Woman - but none of them capture my heart the way her first fifty issues on Birds of Prey do.
> 
> (I have a special caveat for her Batgirl: Future's End one-shot - the Steph part was perfect, but the Babs stuff was just silly.)


I like her older stuff more also, in general, but I chalk that up more to DC editorial than anything else. I've seen too many authors who I really like go to DC just to have my enjoyment of those authors take a sharp downturn to think it's all coincidence. I'm super excited to see Simone back at Marvel though!

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph's actually set to appear in one of my current fanfics. As far as suggestions, hmmmm.. I'll have to think about that one.


Oooh, post about it here, and maybe you'll get some extra Steph fan reviews!  :Smile: 




> I like her older stuff more also, in general, but I chalk that up more to DC editorial than anything else. I've seen too many authors who I really like go to DC just to have my enjoyment of those authors take a sharp downturn to think it's all coincidence. I'm super excited to see Simone back at Marvel though!


I really don't think it's editorial. I think Simone's creative interests have just diverged from mine.

----------


## Daniel22

> Oooh, post about it here, and maybe you'll get some extra Steph fan reviews! 
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't think it's editorial. I think Simone's creative interests have just diverged from mine.


I can't prove it, of course. I've just seen so many authors that I like elsewhere do work I don't care for at DC. I've seen a decent number of creators complain about DC editorial also, but that's only one side of the story to be fair. It does seem like DC is more interested in having writers who implement editorial's vision than having writers come in and implement their own vision. Unless you're Bendis I guess.

Who would your top choice be to write a new Steph (or BoP featuring Steph) ongoing?

----------


## millernumber1

> I can't prove it, of course. I've just seen so many authors that I like elsewhere do work I don't care for at DC. I've seen a decent number of creators complain about DC editorial also, but that's only one side of the story to be fair. It does seem like DC is more interested in having writers who implement editorial's vision than having writers come in and implement their own vision. Unless you're Bendis I guess.
> 
> Who would your top choice be to write a new Steph (or BoP featuring Steph) ongoing?


I'm kind of the opposite. Except for Vision, almost every writer I've liked has done their best work at DC. But the fact that I've been alienated from Marvel for 11 years probably has something to do with that.

Top choice? Um. Hm. Dixon, probably. Or BQM. But neither of those are likely, so I don't really have a writer or team that I think I would really love at this point who is plausible. Oh, wait. Seeley I would definitely enjoy.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Oh, wait. Seeley I would definitely enjoy.


Really wish I understood what people saw in him. Writers I find to be very overrated, to varying degrees, like King, Morrison and Snyder, I can at least understand _why_ people hype them up so much. The former two make readers feel smart (regardless of whether or not the work is _actually_ smart) and Snyder appeals to people who like big explosive action. For Seeley though, I just don't get what anyone sees in his writing.

----------


## Daniel22

> I'm kind of the opposite. Except for Vision, almost every writer I've liked has done their best work at DC. But the fact that I've been alienated from Marvel for 11 years probably has something to do with that.
> 
> Top choice? Um. Hm. Dixon, probably. Or BQM. But neither of those are likely, so I don't really have a writer or team that I think I would really love at this point who is plausible. Oh, wait. Seeley I would definitely enjoy.


That's interesting, I can't think of many writers who have spent significant time at DC and other companies whose DC work I prefer. Simone's early stuff... Ostrander... maybe there's others I'm forgetting.

Seely would be ok with me. I loved Hack Slash and Grayson. Nightwing has been only ok/good for me. Not many of the current DC writers really excite me... I'd say Yang is probably the current DC writer I'd like to see on this dream book.

----------


## Daniel22

sorry double post

----------


## millernumber1

> Really wish I understood what people saw in him. Writers I find to be very overrated, to varying degrees, like King, Morrison and Snyder, I can at least understand _why_ people hype them up so much. The former two make readers feel smart (regardless of whether or not the work is _actually_ smart) and Snyder appeals to people who like big explosive action. For Seeley though, I just don't get what anyone sees in his writing.


Seeley's biggest point in favor is that he writes Steph of his own volition - he put her in Nightwing as one of Dick's friends in a prominent position. And he wrote a ton of her fun stuff in both Eternals. But a big part of it is that while he's not "wow amazing", he's consistently "I enjoyed that quite a bit" when I finish reading his stuff. It's a very Buffy-esque feeling, similar to but not quite as carefully constructed as what BQM accomplished with his Teen Titans and Batgirl stuff.




> That's interesting, I can't think of many writers who have spent significant time at DC and other companies whose DC work I prefer. Simone's early stuff... Ostrander... maybe there's others I'm forgetting.
> 
> Seely would be ok with me. I loved Hack Slash and Grayson. Nightwing has been only ok/good for me. Not many of the current DC writers really excite me... I'd say Yang is probably the current DC writer I'd like to see on this dream book.


I guess I'm weird - I am excited by King and Tynion and Seeley. And to some extent the Bensons. And above all Priest (I really hope he gets SOMETHING after Justice League).  :Smile: 

I prefer Rucka's DC work to his Marvel stuff by a large margin, even though I adore his Punisher run. But that's partly because he got stuck on Star Wars stuff for Marvel that was just so trivial.

It's funny, though - I don't really trust Rucka or Priest on Steph. She's too fun and hopeful for them - their characters tend to be very, very grim and dark.

----------


## Assam

Never mind.

----------


## Daniel22

> Seeley's biggest point in favor is that he writes Steph of his own volition - he put her in Nightwing as one of Dick's friends in a prominent position. And he wrote a ton of her fun stuff in both Eternals. But a big part of it is that while he's not "wow amazing", he's consistently "I enjoyed that quite a bit" when I finish reading his stuff. It's a very Buffy-esque feeling, similar to but not quite as carefully constructed as what BQM accomplished with his Teen Titans and Batgirl stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm weird - I am excited by King and Tynion and Seeley. And to some extent the Bensons. And above all Priest (I really hope he gets SOMETHING after Justice League). 
> 
> I prefer Rucka's DC work to his Marvel stuff by a large margin, even though I adore his Punisher run. But that's partly because he got stuck on Star Wars stuff for Marvel that was just so trivial.
> 
> It's funny, though - I don't really trust Rucka or Priest on Steph. She's too fun and hopeful for them - their characters tend to be very, very grim and dark.


I love King's Dc stuff, but Vision is a truly special work of art imo. Same with Tynion, I think he's fantastic and I'm sorry to see him leave Detective, but I think his creator owned stuff is his best work. Oh yeah Rucka, I think I like his DC stuff best. Totally agree that he and Priest are too dark and not a good fit for Steph. Same with King, I think he's brilliant but not a good fit.

How do you feel about Yang for Steph? Assam, I know you're a big fan of Yang's New Superman.. how do you feel about him on a Steph book?

----------


## millernumber1

> I love King's Dc stuff, but Vision is a truly special work of art imo. Same with Tynion, I think he's fantastic and I'm sorry to see him leave Detective, but I think his creator owned stuff is his best work. Oh yeah Rucka, I think I like his DC stuff best. Totally agree that he and Priest are too dark and not a good fit for Steph. Same with King, I think he's brilliant but not a good fit.
> 
> How do you feel about Yang for Steph? Assam, I know you're a big fan of Yang's New Superman.. how do you feel about him on a Steph book?


Vision is pretty great, but I don't find it that much better than Omega Men. I really wonder why that one hasn't had a resurgence in reading since King became the New Hotness.  :Smile: 

I've only tried pieces of Tynion's creator owned stuff. I really need to finish Memetic, at least.  :Smile: 

I don't think Rucka and Priest are too dark, just too dark for Steph.  :Smile: 

I would love to see King tackle Steph, actually. He did a great job with Dick, and I think Dick and Steph both have a buoyancy about them that can be tinged with but not overcome by darkness.

I don't know if I've said this on the Steph thread, but I'm really, really against Yang on a Steph book, because I loathe his Avatar the Last Airbender stuff so much it's kept me from wanting to try anything else by him.

----------


## Daniel22

> Vision is pretty great, but I don't find it that much better than Omega Men. I really wonder why that one hasn't had a resurgence in reading since King became the New Hotness. 
> 
> I've only tried pieces of Tynion's creator owned stuff. I really need to finish Memetic, at least. 
> 
> I don't think Rucka and Priest are too dark, just too dark for Steph. 
> 
> I would love to see King tackle Steph, actually. He did a great job with Dick, and I think Dick and Steph both have a buoyancy about them that can be tinged with but not overcome by darkness.
> 
> I don't know if I've said this on the Steph thread, but I'm really, really against Yang on a Steph book, because I loathe his Avatar the Last Airbender stuff so much it's kept me from wanting to try anything else by him.


Totally recommend finishing Memetic and then picking up Cognetic. Thought both were fantastic.

It took me a few tries to get into Omega Men. Once I did I really liked it, although it's probably my least favorite King work. I still think it's better than 90% of what I read any given week, that's how highly I think of King.

King on Steph though.. it's intriguing, and who knows, maybe he could go for a whole different tone. It's happened before with other writers, who adopted a whole new style for a certain book.. Maybe he could pull it off.

I haven't read any of Yang's Airbender stuff.. or any Avatar stuff. I do think his New Superman is one of the best Rebirth titles and that Keenan is the best new DC character since Damian.

----------


## millernumber1

> King on Steph though.. it's intriguing, and who knows, maybe he could go for a whole different tone. It's happened before with other writers, who adopted a whole new style for a certain book.. Maybe he could pull it off.
> 
> I haven't read any of Yang's Airbender stuff.. or any Avatar stuff. I do think his New Superman is one of the best Rebirth titles and that Keenan is the best new DC character since Damian.


I don't think it has to be different. I think Grayson was pretty pitch perfect for Dick, and just a note away from Steph. It just can't be Batman or his 12-issue miniseries.  :Smile: 

People do keep saying stuff about Keenan Kong. I liked him in Deathstroke, but...I just hate the Avatar stuff so much. I don't want him to touch Steph.

----------


## Daniel22

> I don't think it has to be different. I think Grayson was pretty pitch perfect for Dick, and just a note away from Steph. It just can't be Batman or his 12-issue miniseries. 
> 
> People do keep saying stuff about Keenan Kong. I liked him in Deathstroke, but...I just hate the Avatar stuff so much. I don't want him to touch Steph.


I wonder how much was Seeley and how much was King when it comes to Grayson.. it definitely felt more like a Seeley book to me. I agree that if it was much closer in tone to Grayson than Omega Men or Vision or Batman that it could work.

Man that Avatar stuff really had an impact! I'm trying to think of a time I disliked something from an author so much it soured me on them completely... I really didn't care for Rivera's America and I'm not in a rush to read more from her... I disliked Gay on World of Wakanda quite a bit but I'd read more stuff from her, especially since WoW was one of her very first comics.

----------


## Assam

> Assam, I know you're a big fan of Yang's New Superman.


A bit of an understatement.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> how do you feel about him on a Steph book?


I think Yang could be amazing on any character. As such, I personally wouldn't want him on a Steph book. I love Steph but much less so as a solo act. There are a lot of other characters I'd rather see written by him first. 




> Kenan is the best new DC character since Damian.


Not the comparison I'd use, but he has managed to make his way into my Top 15 DC heroes. 




> I liked him in Deathstroke


Much like my OTHER favorite character from Rebirth, Jessica Cruz, Priest really didn't write Kenan properly.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Yang could be amazing on any character. As such, I personally wouldn't want him on a Steph book. I love Steph but much less so as a solo act. There are a lot of other characters I'd rather see written by him first. 
> 
> Much like my OTHER favorite character from Rebirth, Jessica Cruz, Priest really didn't write Kenan properly.


Well, then apparently I don't really like Kenan.

I know you aren't that interested in a Steph solo book, but...this is a Steph thread. I would at least have said, "I'd rather see Steph in a Yang book on a team or as a supporting character."

----------


## Assam

> I know you aren't that interested in a Steph solo book, but...this is a Steph thread. I would at least have said, "I'd rather see Steph in a Yang book on a team or as a supporting character."


I know this is Steph's thread, but since I've been posting here for over a year now, I didn't see the need to sugarcoat my answer when those weren't the things I was asked about specifically and you know I'd like those ideas.

----------


## Daniel22

> A bit of an understatement. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Yang could be amazing on any character. As such, I personally wouldn't want him on a Steph book. I love Steph but much less so as a solo act. There are a lot of other characters I'd rather see written by him first. 
> 
> 
> 
> Not the comparison I'd use, but he has managed to make his way into my Top 15 DC heroes. 
> ...


 Yang has impressed me so much that I feel he could write any character well, also. He's done so well with New Superman, which is a young person focused, funny, and for the most part positive and light book (not that it never gets serious or darker) that he seems a natural fit for Steph. 

I'm a huge Jessica Cruz fan also. I'd like to see her and Steph on the same team or at least have a few adventures together. I think they'd be friends.

----------


## Assam

> I'm a huge Jessica Cruz fan also. I'd like to see her and Steph on the same team or at least have a few adventures together. I think they'd be friends.


Well for now at least, Jess seems to only be going to Justice Leagues so it would seem unlikely, although with how many Bats have gotten to be on a Justice League (Bruce, Dick, Babs, Helena, Cass, David, Damian and now with Jess, JPV) it really should be Steph's turn eventually.

----------


## Frontier

> I would love to see King tackle Steph, actually. He did a great job with Dick, and I think Dick and Steph both have a buoyancy about them that can be tinged with but not overcome by darkness.


I think King was best on Dick when he had Seeley balancing him out, but that's just my take on things. 



> I don't know if I've said this on the Steph thread, but I'm really, really against Yang on a Steph book, because I loathe his Avatar the Last Airbender stuff so much it's kept me from wanting to try anything else by him.


I personally really loved his Avatar work and think it'd be interesting to see him write more of DC's teen heroes (even if I don't see it happening anytime soon)  :Smile: . 



> I think Yang could be amazing on any character. As such, I personally wouldn't want him on a Steph book. I love Steph but much less so as a solo act. There are a lot of other characters I'd rather see written by him first.


I'd honestly be curious to see how a solo Spoiler book would be different from Steph's _Batgirl_ run.

----------


## Daniel22

> Well for now at least, Jess seems to only be going to Justice Leagues so it would seem unlikely, although with how many Bats have gotten to be on a Justice League (Bruce, Dick, Babs, Helena, Cass, David, Damian and now with Jess, JPV) it really should be Steph's turn eventually.


True, DC is really Bat-Happy right now (even more so than usual) so I think it's just a matter of time until Steph gets put on a team. I see DC going full-Marvel with the JL and having like 6 team books eventually.

----------


## adrikito

Young Justice Cast Has Finished Recording Season 3:

https://www.cbr.com/young-justice-se...ampaign=CBR-TW

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Young Justice Cast Has Finished Recording Season 3:
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/young-justice-se...ampaign=CBR-TW


Very good to hear that.

----------


## millernumber1

> Very good to hear that.


Indeed! I really wish DC wasn't dragging its feet on this streaming service thing. I think that it's really not the greatest of ideas.

----------


## Frontier

> Indeed! I really wish DC wasn't dragging its feet on this streaming service thing. I think that it's really not the greatest of ideas.


Well, part of it is production because I think there's still a lot of _Young Justice: Outsiders_ that still needs to be completed.

----------


## dominus

> I do think that this 24 or Netflix style "we're trying to make 13 or 24-hour movies" instead of the more Veronica Mars or Buffy the Vampire Slayer style constructed serial narratives is destructive to the ability of comics to entice new readers. Without a satisfaction every week, or at least every few issues, why should a new reader bother to try an ongoing title, instead just waiting for the trade?


Yup. I tried, but I couldn't handle it anymore. I'll re-read the old stuff. It's worse than the yearly crossovers, now everything takes months to play out. 




> I get that he was a huge contributor, but you would think he's the only person who wrote in the Bat-verse during the 90's.


Kinda, Dixon was handling a lot of titles at one point. 

Detective Comics 644729
Nightwing vol. 2, #170
Robin vol. 2, #1100
Birds of Prey #146
Green Arrow vol. 2,  #93137

----------


## millernumber1

> Yup. I tried, but I couldn't handle it anymore. I'll re-read the old stuff. It's worse than the yearly crossovers, now everything takes months to play out. 
> 
> Kinda, Dixon was handling a lot of titles at one point. 
> 
> Detective Comics 644–729
> Nightwing vol. 2, #1–70
> Robin vol. 2, #1–100
> Birds of Prey #1–46
> Green Arrow vol. 2,  #93–137


Yeah. I love rereading old stuff. But the reason reboots/relaunches are so popular is because it means a new place for people to jump on. I think it's not just speculator booms for #1s, it's because people are hungry for good stories, but don't want to have to read a billion old issues just to enjoy it.

Now, I do think there's an exaggerated amount of what you need to know. We have the internet, and usually as long as there's a strong character moment, the comic can draw you in. (I really need to memorize that issue of Detective Comics with Sasha Bordeux so I can pull it out at will.  :Smile:  )

Wow, Dixon was writing five titles a month? That's really impressive!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Indeed! I really wish DC wasn't dragging its feet on this streaming service thing. I think that it's really not the greatest of ideas.


I've had to wait for games that took years to develop this is not new for me to handle. But with all the voice acting wrapped up it should come out and then we can see how Stephanie can fair on TV.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah. I love rereading old stuff. But the reason reboots/relaunches are so popular is that it means a new place for people to jump on. I think it's not just speculator booms for #1s, it's because people are hungry for good stories, but don't want to have to read a billion old issues just to enjoy it.


I like to add, as one of those people, that while the number is deterring, the real hard part is figuring out which one of those stories are important, classic, or includes facts or development that lead up to those stories. Looking at what Trades available we can figure out that not all of those hundreds of issues are important.

In other words, which is not a filler and which one contains character development leading up to that event.

The New 52 appeal was the epic events made almost all stories feel important. I can easily tell that you don't have to pick Detective Comics and The Dark Knight but you have to pick Batman. In Rebirth's case, because most title have a plot on their own, the ones that do have events stand out, like Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Detective Comics. While I can tell which one's the classic from the 90s, before they republish the trades, the old collection didn't include events leading up to it. Like when they sold A Death in The Family without the origin of Jason Todd. They get better at it now though.

----------


## millernumber1

> I've had to wait for games that took years to develop this is not new for me to handle. But with all the voice acting wrapped up it should come out and then we can see how Stephanie can fair on TV.


I've waited for books for years and years. So I CAN wait. I just would prefer not to.  :Smile: 

I just want to know what I can get excited about - just a supporting character? Main character (unlikely)? A showcase episode? And will this be the Spoiler I love from the comics? Or Spoiler in name only? Questions abound!




> I like to add, as one of those people, that while the number is deterring, the real hard part is figuring out which one of those stories are important, classic, or includes facts or development that lead up to those stories. Looking at what Trades available we can figure out that not all of those hundreds of issues are important.
> 
> In other words, which is not a filler and which one contains character development leading up to that event.
> 
> The New 52 appeal was the epic events made almost all stories feel important. I can easily tell that you don't have to pick Detective Comics and The Dark Knight but you have to pick Batman. In Rebirth's case, because most title have a plot on their own, the ones that do have events stand out, like Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Detective Comics. While I can tell which one's the classic from the 90s, before they republish the trades, the old collection didn't include events leading up to it. Like when they sold A Death in The Family without the origin of Jason Todd. They get better at it now though.


I just bought Detective Comics #767, the first issue I really remember loving (I also remember an issue of NML where Superman visits, but I already have that in the digital collections). Just so I can pull it out when people say they can't get into comics in the middle of a storyline.  :Smile: 

One reader's filler can be another reader's essential issue (depending on the character in question). So it's even more complicated. I always tell people to just start somewhere with an issue or trade that interests them from the description, and then figure out who you liked, and follow them using the Comic Vine database or fan site. (Which is why I am always trying to keep the Steph wikia up to date so people can always have that reference).

The new trades are pretty great. I really, really LOVE that Steph's second volume of Batgirl included the Batman Inc story (but thankfully, only the good stuff that was important for Steph, not the really weird second half of the issue). That's good trade collection!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've waited for books for years and years. So I CAN wait. I just would prefer not to. 
> 
> I just want to know what I can get excited about - just a supporting character? Main character (unlikely)? A showcase episode? And will this be the Spoiler I love from the comics? Or Spoiler in name only? Questions abound!


I hope Stephanie can get her due because there seems to be roles in mind for the older characters and that's not good at all bevause the problem with Season 2 is that there were too many to the point the new character didn't get to do much so I hope Weisman has a better plan this time.

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope Stephanie can get her due because there seems to be roles in mind for the older characters and that's not good at all bevause the problem with Season 2 is that there were too many to the point the new character didn't get to do much so I hope Weisman has a better plan this time.


Well, there's more episodes this time, I think, so that will be good. Personally, I'll be happy if we get one episode where she's a starring role.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, there's more episodes this time, I think, so that will be good. Personally, I'll be happy if we get one episode where she's a starring role.


Except each season retains the standard twenty-six episodes I just hope for no time-skips for the subsequent seasons because that was another strike against the second one so much happened and we were not there to experience it. The magic is in the journey after all.

----------


## millernumber1

> Except each season retains the standard twenty-six episodes I just hope for no time-skips for the subsequent seasons because that was another strike against the second one so much happened and we were not there to experience it. The magic is in the journey after all.


No, season 2 only had 20 episodes.

I personally liked the time-skip because it meant that we got Tim Drake as Robin. And I kind of want another time skip so Tim won't be dating Cassie anymore. But that's just me.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No, season 2 only had 20 episodes.
> 
> I personally liked the time-skip because it meant that we got Tim Drake as Robin. And I kind of want another time skip so Tim won't be dating Cassie anymore. But that's just me.


Oh my bad. I mean sure but there was so many things that happened that we couldn't get to see like Conner training and bonding with Superman. And Cassie doing the same with Wonder Woman. And now instead of being a solo heroine Stephanie will be Dick's apprentice. You're already getting a time skip in Season 3 so Tim and the other characters will be a lot older. And I would assume by then Tim and Cassie had broken up. Dick and Zatana had broken up by then. I guess Weisman didn't want to drown the show in soap romance drama but he still went through with pairing Tim and Cassie together even though they didn't interacted much I find that questionable.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh my bad. I mean sure but there was so many things that happened that we couldn't get to see like Conner training and bonding with Superman. And Cassie doing the same with Wonder Woman. And now instead of being a solo heroine Stephanie will be Dick's apprentice. You're already getting a time skip in Season 3 so Tim and the other characters will be a lot older. And I would assume by then Tim and Cassie had broken up. Dick and Zatana had broken up by then. I guess Weisman didn't want to drown the show in soap romance drama but he still went through with pairing Tim and Cassie together even though they didn't interacted much I find that questionable.


I really hope that Steph as Dick's apprentice is a cool storyline (if the rumors are true).  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really hope that Steph as Dick's apprentice is a cool storyline (if the rumors are true).


If they did how would you see Dick as a teacher and what appears to be black ops agent which he and the old cast including Black Lightning are now?

----------


## millernumber1

> If they did how would you see Dick as a teacher and what appears to be black ops agent which he and the old cast including Black Lightning are now?


Well, given how he was with Damian, I think he'd be a good teacher, though Steph is much more similar instead of Damian as a contrast to Dick's sunny attitude. I would hope that we'd get some scenes of Steph doing what Dick would do, and Dick feeling torn between approval and trying to be like Batman.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, given how he was with Damian, I think he'd be a good teacher, though Steph is much more similar instead of Damian as a contrast to Dick's sunny attitude. I would hope that we'd get some scenes of Steph doing what Dick would do, and Dick feeling torn between approval and trying to be like Batman.


Dick already slipped into Batman territory in season 2 with all his secret keeping. I mean Stephanie might be more troubled in this iteration since she was a runaway. So Dick could retain his sunnier disposition to contrast Stephanie. Actually I'd expect Dick to become more like Batman if he's becoming a black ops agent. And Stephanie to become sunnier.

----------


## millernumber1

> Dick already slipped into Batman territory in season 2 with all his secret keeping. I mean Stephanie might be more troubled in this iteration since she was a runaway. So Dick could retain his sunnier disposition to contrast Stephanie. Actually I'd expect Dick to become more like Batman if he's becoming a black ops agent. And Stephanie to become sunnier.


Well, Steph was fairly troubled for the first several years of her existence, with her bad dad and drug addicted mom. But I hope she's got that Steph sunny disposition as well.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I really hope that Steph as Dick's apprentice is a cool storyline (if the rumors are true).


but isn't babs second in command wouldn't she work under her

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, Steph was fairly troubled for the first several years of her existence, with her bad dad and drug addicted mom. But I hope she's got that Steph sunny disposition as well.


Stephanie in all likelihood has the same troubled background in this series so I should be expecting her to act the same way. Admittedly if Weisman does something like have Stephanie already develop past her troubled years in the time skip and become her sunny self from the comics it would be great. But on the other hand it might rob the viewer of watching some of her development as a character.

----------


## WonderNight

Well if you look at it will probably be a new generational take on Batman and robin. Dick takes in the kid from broken home (steph) and in turn that kid brings light back in to dick world after season 2.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well if you look at it will probably be a new generational take on Batman and robin. Dick takes in the kid from broken home (steph) and in turn that kid brings light back in to dick world after season 2.


I am in favor of this plan!

----------


## Caivu

#980 cover has been released:

IMG_20180411_154518.jpg

Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson

----------


## millernumber1

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


Ooooh, that's really awesome. Where'd they leak it?

(Although I'm SUPER bummed that not only did they yank Martinez for JLD, which makes the THIRD TIME Tynion has lost an artist to Justice League, though this time, it's his own fault, but we're getting Scot Eaton. Who is the WORST of the fill-in artists that Tynion has had in the two Eternals. Ugh. So this issue, which I'm really excited about, is going to have the blobbiest character work and most uninspired layout.)

----------


## Katana500

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


Such an awesome cover!

----------


## AlvinDraper

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


My my...its so PERFECT! I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS AND AND MARTÍNEZ ART

----------


## millernumber1

So, everywhere the cover for 980 is showing up, Steph fans are lighting it up with likes, comments, shares, etc. Excellent work, team Steph!

Meanwhile, Bryan Edward Hill posted this: https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...38908190769152

In response to the question "Will you be writing Tim?", he said "With the excellent work that @JamesTheFourth has done, I would be foolish not to try, wouldn’t I?"

Which means, in my Steph-addled brain, that if Tim is there, Steph might be as well!

----------


## Frontier

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


It took me a minute to notice the silhouette's. Awesome  :Big Grin: .

----------


## millernumber1

> It took me a minute to notice the silhouette's. Awesome .


Every time I look at it, I have glorious flashbacks to Lee Garbett's beautiful art of Stephgirl.

Batgirl #3 023.jpg

----------


## uchihafanboy

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


Finally after so long, the Steph once again heads into the darkness of the Bat.

----------


## dominus

> Every time I look at it, I have glorious flashbacks to Lee Garbett's beautiful art of Stephgirl.
> 
> Batgirl #3 023.jpg


That pic is almost a meme for me, I use it often to answer texted questions in the affirmative to my girlfriend.

GF: "What do you think about doing such and such?"

Me: *attaches pic* "HERE WE GO!!!"

----------


## millernumber1

> That pic is almost a meme for me, I use it often to answer texted questions in the affirmative to my girlfriend.
> 
> GF: "What do you think about doing such and such?"
> 
> Me: *attaches pic* "HERE WE GO!!!"


I love Steph's attitude in this one line. She repeats it all throughout the series, and it's actually the final line of the book in #24. Really awesome craftsmanship, there.

----------


## adrikito

> #980 cover has been released:
> 
> Attachment 64488
> 
> Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, Brad Anderson


FINALLY, I can see this image in color.

----------


## millernumber1

> FINALLY, I can see this image in color.


I know, right? We've all be living on the black and white snippets, and now it's so much more than we could have imagined!  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:

----------


## AlvinDraper

I was kinda curious, who do you guys think is the father of steph's kid??

----------


## millernumber1

> I was kinda curious, who do you guys think is the father of steph's kid??


If you are talking about the son in the Black Mercy vision from Batgirl #24, I think it is either Tim or Damian. I, naturally, think it is Tim, but am okay with Damian as long as it is 10 years later.  :Smile: 

Recently, there are some hints that Tim/Steph with kids is a possibility in both the Batman Annual 2 and Nightwing The New Order. Neither definitive, but both seeming to lean in that direction.

----------


## TheCape

In millernumber's head is Tim for sure  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AlvinDraper

> If you are talking about the son in the Black Mercy vision from Batgirl #24, I think it is either Tim or Damian. I, naturally, think it is Tim, but am okay with Damian as long as it is 10 years later. 
> 
> Recently, there are some hints that Tim/Steph with kids is a possibility in both the Batman Annual 2 and Nightwing The New Order. Neither definitive, but both seeming to lean in that direction.


Yeah, I was thinking it was Damian since he was featured a LOT in Batgirl, and Tim...just on the crossover (and in the ending right? that Doctor Mid-Nite reference was for him!)
And yes! The three kids (or was four?) in New Order has to be Steph's, there's even one there who is blonde (the girl I think)
Also, there was another one, I think in Dark Night, that one with older Bruce where he talks with a Janet, c'mon, Tynion was a co-write there, she has to be a TimSteph kid




> In millernumber's head is Tim for sure


Oh definitely, I'm glad I finally found someone who ships TimSteph more than me

----------


## millernumber1

> In millernumber's head is Tim for sure


GUILTY!  :Smile: 




> Yeah, I was thinking it was Damian since he was featured a LOT in Batgirl, and Tim...just on the crossover (and in the ending right? that Doctor Mid-Nite reference was for him!)
> And yes! The three kids (or was four?) in New Order has to be Steph's, there's even one there who is blonde (the girl I think)
> Also, there was another one, I think in Dark Night, that one with older Bruce where he talks with a Janet, c'mon, Tynion was a co-write there, she has to be a TimSteph kid
> 
> Oh definitely, I'm glad I finally found someone who ships TimSteph more than me


I don't know if I ship it MORE than you, but I definitely ship it more than anyone who doesn't ship it!

The Doctor Mid-Nite thing has definitely be a fan-interpretation for a while. Great fic about it here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/339166 (not mine. My fics aren't nearly this good.)

I mean, I know the Tim/Cassie shippers would argue that it could be hers in New Order, but I'm rooting for the Stephers.

Are you talking about Batman Lost? I honestly didn't really understand that one. Very confusing.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> I don't know if I ship it MORE than you, but I definitely ship it more than anyone who doesn't ship it!
> 
> The Doctor Mid-Nite thing has definitely be a fan-interpretation for a while. Great fic about it here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/339166 (not mine. My fics aren't nearly this good.)
> 
> I mean, I know the Tim/Cassie shippers would argue that it could be hers in New Order, but I'm rooting for the Stephers.
> 
> Are you talking about Batman Lost? I honestly didn't really understand that one. Very confusing.



Well, I see a lot of your comments on Tumblr, definitely more than mine

thats actually funny...I never thought about anyone else, just Steph to be the mother, heh

Ah yes, it was about Batman Lost, but yes I also didn't understand that since I actually never read the main series, but Janet...she is definitely Tim's kid...mother's name all the way

btw, I love that fic! I think I read every fanfic about the pairing, sadly some aren't finished

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, I see a lot of your comments on Tumblr, definitely more than mine
> 
> thats actually funny...I never thought about anyone else, just Steph to be the mother, heh
> 
> Ah yes, it was about Batman Lost, but yes I also didn't understand that since I actually never read the main series, but Janet...she is definitely Tim's kid...mother's name all the way
> 
> btw, I love that fic! I think I read every fanfic about the pairing, sadly some aren't finished


Haha, well I'm always happy to chat about TimSteph (or Steph in general, or Steph as Robin, or Steph as Batgirl, or Steph as Spoiler...)

Huh. I hadn't thought about Janet, Bruce's granddaughter, being Tim's daughter. The black hair would be fair enough (Nightwing New Order also had Tim have at least one kid with black hair). But since Janet was a hallucination by EVIL OWLS or something (I seriously don't get what that story was supposed to be about), I never thought too much about her. BUT YES! Moar confirmation of the TimSteph in the future!

I have tried to read a bunch of TimSteph, but sadly not many of them have stuck out as much as a great StephDamian fic (No Dawn, No Day, which I've recced in the thread before) by the same author. BUT there is a current TimSteph fic that's building off of Red Robin and Batgirl in a really nice way. Really enjoying that - https://archiveofourown.org/works/13...full_work=true

Some AWESOME Steph as Robin art by the classic Scott McDaniel!

Steph McDaniel.jpg

https://twitter.com/ScottMcDaniel0/s...90700686839808

----------


## WonderNight

hey could you guys do me a favor? Could one of you take the YJ season 3 art of nightwing and spoiler in HD and put them side by side. I need a new Wallpaper and I suck at that stuff  :Stick Out Tongue: ... season 2 nightwing would be cool also if you guys don't mind.

----------


## Caivu

By Tressina Bowling:

Screenshot_20180415-180903.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> hey could you guys do me a favor? Could one of you take the YJ season 3 art of nightwing and spoiler in HD and put them side by side. I need a new Wallpaper and I suck at that stuff ... season 2 nightwing would be cool also if you guys don't mind.


Sadly, I am The Bad at photo manipulations.  :Frown: 




> By Tressina Bowling:
> 
> Screenshot_20180415-180903.jpg


Awesome!

----------


## TheCape

> Haha, well I'm always happy to chat about TimSteph (or Steph in general, or Steph as Robin, or Steph as Batgirl, or Steph as Spoiler...)
> 
> Huh. I hadn't thought about Janet, Bruce's granddaughter, being Tim's daughter. The black hair would be fair enough (Nightwing New Order also had Tim have at least one kid with black hair). But since Janet was a hallucination by EVIL OWLS or something (I seriously don't get what that story was supposed to be about), I never thought too much about her. BUT YES! Moar confirmation of the TimSteph in the future!
> 
> I have tried to read a bunch of TimSteph, but sadly not many of them have stuck out as much as a great StephDamian fic (No Dawn, No Day, which I've recced in the thread before) by the same author. BUT there is a current TimSteph fic that's building off of Red Robin and Batgirl in a really nice way. Really enjoying that - https://archiveofourown.org/works/13...full_work=true
> 
> Some AWESOME Steph as Robin art by the classic Scott McDaniel!
> 
> Steph McDaniel.jpg
> ...


Interesting fanfic, i'm not sure if i agreed completly with Jason and Damian charactherization, but at least she doesn't fall in the same pitfalls that most FF writters (i had an smile on my face when she referenced Jason's love for literature), her Damian feels mostly like an older version of him, but i'm not sure if i agreed with some details (like his apparent crush) there's no enough about Dick there to have an opinion yet and Babs was ok. On the other side Tim and Steph feel pretty on point with their charactherizations from Red Robin and Batgirl before the reboot, specially regarding the idea of Tim having suicidal thougths, something that DC was teasing about him since the post-Infinite Crisis period, huh maybe King would try to bond Bruce and Tim on his run  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Interesting fanfic, i'm not sure if i agreed completly with Jason and Damian charactherization, but at least she doesn't fall in the same pitfalls that most FF writters (i had an smile on my face when she referenced Jason's love for literature), her Damian feels mostly like an older version of him, but i'm not sure if i agreed with some details (like his apparent crush) there's no enough about Dick there to have an opinion yet and Babs was ok. On the other side Tim and Steph feel pretty on point with their charactherizations from Red Robin and Batgirl before the reboot, specially regarding the idea of Tim having suicidal thougths, something that DC was teasing about him since the post-Infinite Crisis period, huh maybe King would try to bond Bruce and Tim on his run .


I'm never sure on Jason characterization, since I've not really read his series. The Damian crush on Tim was a bit odd, but I think she handled it well.

The "Tim was suicidal" thing is very strong in fanon, but I'm still not completely convinced that the writers intended it. FabNic seems to want to turn Tim into Genius Meglomaniac dude, but I like the way the fanfic turned it into trying to recover from all the trauma instead.

The fanons we develop are very interesting about out favorite characters, especially if they disappear for a long time and we build up our version of what happened. I think something like that develops around Steph and Cass's relationship, which I think could be argued is destroyed by what happened when Steph became Robin, but it's so implied, you could just as easily argue that Steph and Cass are still each other's best friends.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm never sure on Jason characterization, since I've not really read his series. The Damian crush on Tim was a bit odd, but I think she handled it well.
> 
> The "Tim was suicidal" thing is very strong in fanon, but I'm still not completely convinced that the writers intended it. FabNic seems to want to turn Tim into Genius Meglomaniac dude, but I like the way the fanfic turned it into trying to recover from all the trauma instead.
> 
> The fanons we develop are very interesting about out favorite characters, especially if they disappear for a long time and we build up our version of what happened. I think something like that develops around Steph and Cass's relationship, which I think could be argued is destroyed by what happened when Steph became Robin, but it's so implied, you could just as easily argue that Steph and Cass are still each other's best friends.


The implication of Tim being suicidal or at least having some serious depression come from an issue of Beechen's run during the post-OYL period, but it was never outright stated, wich is understandable giving a characther that kind of mental illness can easily lead to flanderization or romantice the issue, so is no surprise that thwy adressed, i think than the idea of FabNic is that he was becoming into a pretty effective crime figthter but a worse person, althougth the idea of the author is better.

----------


## TheCape

Also Cass and Steph were pretty fun in this story, their dynamic felt pretty on point.

----------


## KrustyKid

> hey could you guys do me a favor? Could one of you take the YJ season 3 art of nightwing and spoiler in HD and put them side by side. I need a new Wallpaper and I suck at that stuff ... season 2 nightwing would be cool also if you guys don't mind.


Something like this?

Agotone.jpg

I put that together in like five minutes. It's incomplete and is a smaller version, was just dropping it in for an example. Was there a specific stance you wanted them in? A particular background? Did you want me to use a different model for Nightwing?

----------


## WonderNight

> Something like this?
> 
> Agotone.jpg
> 
> I put that together in like five minutes. It's incomplete and is a smaller version, was just dropping it in for an example. Was there a specific stance you wanted them in? A particular background? Did you want me to use a different model for Nightwing?


Yeah thanks this is awesome! What I'm looking for is something like their season 3 models side by side for that mentor/protege comparison you know. Also Artemis and arrowette, superboy and 13 if you don't mind  :Big Grin: . I also love how 13 has superbly no cape no tights theme  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## adrikito

> by tressina bowling:
> 
> Attachment 64672


i like this... Is a good work.




> Something like this?
> 
> Agotone.jpg
> 
> I put that together in like five minutes. It's incomplete and is a smaller version, was just dropping it in for an example. Was there a specific stance you wanted them in? A particular background? Did you want me to use a different model for Nightwing?


I like this. Good avatar* WonderNight*.  :Wink:

----------


## WonderNight

> i like this... Is a good work.
> 
> 
> 
> I like this. Good avatar* WonderNight*.


 Oh ah! the new dynamic duo is on it's way baby  :Cool: .

----------


## KrustyKid

> Yeah thanks this is awesome! What I'm looking for is something like their season 3 models side by side for that mentor/protege comparison you know. Also Artemis and arrowette, superboy and 13 if you don't mind . I also love how 13 has superbly no cape no tights theme


Gotcha, I'll get on that

----------


## WonderScott

I'd really like to see a Spoiler, Black Bat (I just can't call her Orphan), and Ravager series. The girls could do some bonding over being the daughters of villains.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd really like to see a Spoiler, Black Bat (I just can't call her Orphan), and Ravager series. The girls could do some bonding over being the daughters of villains.


I would be a big fan!

----------


## adrikito

> I'd really like to see a Spoiler, Black Bat (I just can't call her Orphan), and Ravager series. The girls could do some bonding over being the daughters of villains.


Steph... Cass and Rose... You saw Cass Batgirl run.. no?

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph... Cass and Rose... You saw Cass Batgirl run.. no?


I don't think it is currently something that would prohibit such a story, though, with Flashpoint and Rebirth.

----------


## Assam

> I'd really like to see a Spoiler, Black Bat (I just can't call her Orphan), and Ravager series. The girls could do some bonding over being the daughters of villains.


The more obvious route to go would be Cass, Rose and Emiko, but Steph could work well in that last slot too. 

3-5 weeks till we find out if Cass can get a codename that doesn't suck like her last two.




> Steph... Cass and Rose... You saw Cass Batgirl run.. no?


Even if that were fully canon (and I wish it was), that's all meaningless. Geoff Johns destroyed Rose's character in general, but during that point, Rose was brainwashed by Slade. I've always felt there was a ton of potential for a friendly rivalry between Cass and Rose.

----------


## millernumber1

> The more obvious route to go would be Cass, Rose and Emiko, but Steph could work well in that last slot too. 
> 
> Even if that were fully canon (and I wish it was), that's all meaningless. Geoff Johns destroyed Rose's character in general, but during that point, Rose was brainwashed by Slade. I've always felt there was a ton of potential for a friendly rivalry between Cass and Rose.


Agreed about Cass and Rose.

Don't see why a team has to be a trio, though. Why not all four? And Huntress as a training person/planner, since she has her Mafia parents! Any other heroes with villainous parents we could add?

----------


## Daniel22

> Agreed about Cass and Rose.
> 
> Don't see why a team has to be a trio, though. Why not all four? And Huntress as a training person/planner, since she has her Mafia parents! Any other heroes with villainous parents we could add?


Damian..Penguin has an (older) kid now...

----------


## millernumber1

> Damian..Penguin has an (older) kid now...


Ooh, Maya Ducard! Damian I would exclude because he has a ton of books right now, and Ethan is not a hero...

----------


## Daniel22

> Ooh, Maya Ducard! Damian I would exclude because he has a ton of books right now, and Ethan is not a hero...


Oh yeah, I'd really like to see Maya back in some way. I really liked that Son Of Batman run she co starred in and think she has a lot of potential. 

Emiko from Green Arrow would be cool too. I like the dynamic of Damian having an unrequited crush on her.

Ethan could work as an antagonist maybe.

----------


## Assam

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...project_update

So either Steph is being added to the game or they're just purposely f**king with us.

----------


## millernumber1

> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...project_update
> 
> So either Steph is being added to the game or they're just purposely f**king with us.


I am unsure how to feel about this. (Thanks for the heads up!)

Checking the comments, the game's (un?)official spokesman is apparently trolling hard about whether she's included or not.

Well. At least I will be able to re-pledge in May. And if they include Steph, I'm pretty sure I will.

----------


## Caivu

The earlier Tressina Bowling piece, now colored:

IMG_20180419_214223.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> The earlier Tressina Bowling piece, now colored:
> 
> IMG_20180419_214223.jpg


Gorgeous! Seems like a nice, more realistic version of Steph from Batman Eternal #20!

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o89gonmdJo1s61htxo1_1280.jpg
Babs, Cass and Steph, they look awesome here.

----------


## millernumber1

> tumblr_o89gonmdJo1s61htxo1_1280.jpg
> Babs, Cass and Steph, they look awesome here.


Awww, cuties!

----------


## Frontier

> tumblr_o89gonmdJo1s61htxo1_1280.jpg
> Babs, Cass and Steph, they look awesome here.


I'ts kind of weird that Babs looks so close in age to them, but this is pretty cute  :Embarrassment: .

I'm still bummed Bryan Q. Miller never got to do his time-travelling Batgirl team-up story...

----------


## Sannom

> By Tressina Bowling:
> 
> Attachment 64672


Again with the three-section staff? It's silly, but that thing's been bothering me ever since Stephanie first put on her Spoiler costume in the New 52 (or was it Rebirth? I can't keep track), she has it in stills and covers, but she never uses it in the series proper. This is such a specific weapon, I feel that if she's supposed to know how to use it, it should almost become a part of her identity as a costumed vigilante!

----------


## adrikito

> the earlier tressina bowling piece, now colored:
> 
> IMG_20180419_214223.jpg


excellent.




> tumblr_o89gonmdJo1s61htxo1_1280.jpg
> Babs, Cass and Steph, they look awesome here.


I like this.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'ts kind of weird that Babs looks so close in age to them, but this is pretty cute .
> 
> I'm still bummed Bryan Q. Miller never got to do his time-travelling Batgirl team-up story...


Along with everything else he never got to do!  :Smile: 




> Again with the three-section staff? It's silly, but that thing's been bothering me ever since Stephanie first put on her Spoiler costume in the New 52 (or was it Rebirth? I can't keep track), she has it in stills and covers, but she never uses it in the series proper. This is such a specific weapon, I feel that if she's supposed to know how to use it, it should almost become a part of her identity as a costumed vigilante!


She used it in Catwoman!

Catwoman 042 (2015) (Digital-Empire)-016.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Bat Family


After what happened the last year, is good see Steph smile in one image.

----------


## millernumber1

Surprise appearance by Steph in today's Batman and the Signal #3!

Signal Breakfast.jpg

Very interesting, after she was left out of issue #1, but she seems to be flanking Tim alongside Cass, in a very nice purple turtleneck!

And the purple theme continues with Steph's grape soda pop quaffing in Detective! Not exactly "last page reveal" that I predicted, but pretty close.



I really hope that she's not this cranky the whole time, though.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Surprise appearance by Steph in today's Batman and the Signal #3!
> 
> Signal Breakfast.jpg
> 
> Very interesting, after she was left out of issue #1, but she seems to be flanking Tim alongside Cass, in a very nice purple turtleneck!
> 
> And the purple theme continues with Steph's grape soda pop quaffing in Detective! Not exactly "last page reveal" that I predicted, but pretty close.
> 
> 
> ...


Kind of interesting that at least this proves that at some point Stephanie made peace with the Batfamily.

----------


## millernumber1

> Kind of interesting that at least this proves that at some point Stephanie made peace with the Batfamily.


I really hope so. I want more of her after Tynion leaves...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really hope so. I want more of her after Tynion leaves...


All the more reason to hope that Tim and Stephanie are the ones Tynion is going to take with him when his run is over. Admittedly that image of her in the Signal is very hard to place because of it though we don't know when exactly did Stephanie make peace with Bruce.

----------


## millernumber1

> All the more reason to hope that Tim and Stephanie are the ones Tynion is going to take with him when his run is over. Admittedly that image of her in the Signal is very hard to place because of it though we don't know when exactly did Stephanie make peace with Bruce.


I mean, for all we know, it could be around the time of the Manslaughter arc, since we know Steph was working with the family then. Or it could be after the current Tec arc. The only thing we really know is that it's post-Metal.  :Smile: 

As for Tynion taking Tim and Steph - I'd be happy with that, but I'm still skeptical that it's going to happen.  :Smile:

----------


## Katana500

> I mean, for all we know, it could be around the time of the Manslaughter arc, since we know Steph was working with the family then. Or it could be after the current Tec arc. The only thing we really know is that it's post-Metal. 
> 
> As for Tynion taking Tim and Steph - I'd be happy with that, but I'm still skeptical that it's going to happen.


Personally I would prefer Tim and Steph weren't paired together. I'd much rather see Steph paired with Bruce or Babs or Cass or anyone else really. But I guess her and Tim together probably makes the most sense. So ill approach it with cautious optimism  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Personally I would prefer Tim and Steph weren't paired together. I'd much rather see Steph paired with Bruce or Babs or Cass or anyone else really. But I guess her and Tim together probably makes the most sense. So ill approach it with cautious optimism


I mean, I'm a big TimSteph shipper, as anyone in the thread knows, but I'm much more interested in Steph getting a strong role in an ongoing title. At this point, I mostly want Steph to resolve her issues with Tim, so whether they're together or not, she can get in a better space than she's been in for the last 1.5 years.

And I do want them to be friends, whether they're dating or not.  :Smile:

----------


## Katana500

> I mean, I'm a big TimSteph shipper, as anyone in the thread knows, but I'm much more interested in Steph getting a strong role in an ongoing title. At this point, I mostly want Steph to resolve her issues with Tim, so whether they're together or not, she can get in a better space than she's been in for the last 1.5 years.
> 
> And I do want them to be friends, whether they're dating or not.


I much prefer Steph to Tim so maybe thats why i'm not too keen. Don't really want to see her role be reduced to Tim's sidekick/girlfriend. I wouldn't mind them being friends of course.  :Smile:  Lets just keep our fingers crossed theirs more Steph in the future!

----------


## millernumber1

> I much prefer Steph to Tim so maybe thats why i'm not too keen. Don't really want to see her role be reduced to Tim's sidekick/girlfriend. I wouldn't mind them being friends of course.  Lets just keep our fingers crossed theirs more Steph in the future!


Oh, I prefer Steph to Tim as well, by a large margin! You don't see me in the Tim thread that much, or maintaining a Tim wikia.  :Smile: 

But yes, absolutely: We need more Steph in our lives! That's why I'm happy about the Signal appearance - it means that on an editorial level, Steph has gotten to a place where she's included.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, for all we know, it could be around the time of the Manslaughter arc, since we know Steph was working with the family then. Or it could be after the current Tec arc. The only thing we really know is that it's post-Metal. 
> 
> As for Tynion taking Tim and Steph - I'd be happy with that, but I'm still skeptical that it's going to happen.


That Manslaughter story was one very tricky arc as it's place in continuity was very ill-defined at the time. THe only reason I want Tynion to take Tim and Stephanie with him is more on the lines of hoping that a change in scenery would help them. But what makes you doubt Tynion will take them with him? Because Bryan Hill is interested in writing Tim?

----------


## millernumber1

> That Manslaughter story was one very tricky arc as it's place in continuity was very ill-defined at the time. THe only reason I want Tynion to take Tim and Stephanie with him is more on the lines of hoping that a change in scenery would help them. But what makes you doubt Tynion will take them with him? Because Bryan Hill is interested in writing Tim?


I'm just really suspicious of Tynion writing a new title. I know he's tweeted about it...but...he's writing a lot.

----------


## adrikito

I heard that Steph appeared in the last detective comics chapter. But in another horrible scene.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> I heard that Steph appeared in the last detective comics chapter. But in another horrible scene.


Nope. Her scene was actually one of the highlights of the issue.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nope. Her scene was actually one of the highlights of the issue.


Indeed! I think maybe adrikito was talking about Dead Steph in the future scenes. But Present Day Steph was fine, not dead at all, and she was drinking purple soda pop!  :Smile:  (I'm really hung up on this purple thing.)

----------


## adrikito

> Indeed! I think maybe adrikito was talking about Dead Steph in the future scenes. *But Present Day Steph was fine, not dead at all, and she was drinking purple soda pop! (I'm really hung up on this purple thing.)*


I saw the death scene in the preview.  :Confused:  He should be talking about the soda pop issue. I think that I read one hater opinion.  :Frown: 




> Surprise appearance by Steph in today's Batman and the Signal #3!
> 
> Attachment 65111
> 
> Very interesting, after she was left out of issue #1, but she seems to be flanking Tim alongside Cass, in a very nice purple turtleneck!
> 
> And the purple theme continues with Steph's grape soda pop quaffing in Detective! Not exactly "last page reveal" that I predicted, but pretty close.
> 
> 
> ...


The characters sizes are too strange... Batwing looks shorter and Damian too tall.

I like to see Steph with the batfamily in this image.

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw the death scene in the preview.  Maybe one hater opinion.


Well, Steph appears later in the comic too, and it's great!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm just really suspicious of Tynion writing a new title. I know he's tweeted about it...but...he's writing a lot.


Well anything to earn some money I guess and I know Tynion might be exhausting himself by doing this but at least he's trying even if he fumbled here and there with Tim and Stephanie. Maybe once he's done with no Justice which is very apparent at this point he'll be able to focus better.

----------


## RedBird

pentaponda

----------


## millernumber1

> pentaponda


Nice! Love how strong she looks here, while still smiling  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> pentaponda


I liked.  :Cool:

----------


## Frontier

> pentaponda


Proof that a fine-toned body isn't any less attractive  :Big Grin: .

----------


## TheCape

> Proof that a fine-toned body isn't any less attractive .


I agreed with you  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Proof that a fine-toned body isn't any less attractive .


Indeed comic book women don't always needs to be drawn by Ed Benes.

----------


## millernumber1

> Indeed comic book women don't always needs to be drawn by Ed Benes.


I love Benes on Simone's first Birds of Prey, but it does feel like he's stayed in a rut where a lot of pencillers have grown.

Also, apparently our thread was accidentally deleted during the huge spam clean out, so happy thread restoration!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I love Benes on Simone's first Birds of Prey, but it does feel like he's stayed in a rut where a lot of pencillers have grown.
> 
> Also, apparently our thread was accidentally deleted during the huge spam clean out, so happy thread restoration!


What I mean no one needs to draw hyper sexualised women like the way Benes tends to draw them all the time it can a little unsettling. I didn't know whether to believe the Stephanie Brown thread was deleted was for real because I saw that it was still around but if it was I am thankful that it was brought back.

----------


## millernumber1

> What I mean no one needs to draw hyper sexualised women like the way Benes tends to draw them all the time it can a little unsettling. I didn't know whether to believe the Stephanie Brown thread was deleted was for real because I saw that it was still around but if it was I am thankful that it was brought back.


Well, we're here now, and that's what matters!

Benes draws very sexy women, but they're also very strong. It seems to me that he doesn't tend to take projects where they're constantly in distress or tortured. So I appreciate that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, we're here now, and that's what matters!
> 
> Benes draws very sexy women, but they're also very strong. It seems to me that he doesn't tend to take projects where they're constantly in distress or tortured. So I appreciate that.


It would have been bad to have loss this thread and then we'd have to restart from the beginning. Yeah but Ed Benes had a bad habit of drawing Wonder Woman almost naked but I agree that is a good thing about him.

----------


## millernumber1

> It would have been bad to have loss this thread and then we'd have to restart from the beginning. Yeah but Ed Benes had a bad habit of drawing Wonder Woman almost naked but I agree that is a good thing about him.


Well, I believe in Steph fans. I think we could do it.

But it would be a shame.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I believe in Steph fans. I think we could do it.
> 
> But it would be a shame.


Indeed if Stephanie can come back from the dead and redeem her reputation so can her appreciation thread only it came back more complete. Now unless you have many years worth of Stephanie related material then rebuilding it would be easy.

----------


## millernumber1

> Indeed if Stephanie can come back from the dead and redeem her reputation so can her appreciation thread only it came back more complete. Now unless you have many years worth of Stephanie related material then rebuilding it would be easy.


I mean, I could just go through my Steph fanart tag on my tumblr - I have well over 500 posts in that, I think. Or I could go through every one of Steph's appearances on the Steph wikia.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, I could just go through my Steph fanart tag on my tumblr - I have well over 500 posts in that, I think. Or I could go through every one of Steph's appearances on the Steph wikia.


Well if it came down to you rebuilding it I think it would be mostly you trying to rebuild the thread. Though like you said some other users will probably do it themselves. I wonder whether anyone would be interested in a Spoiler Earth One story? And how would it look like though?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well if it came down to you rebuilding it I think it would be mostly you trying to rebuild the thread. Though like you said some other users will probably do it themselves. I wonder whether anyone would be interested in a Spoiler Earth One story? And how would it look like though?


I'm sure other people would chip in. We always get good conversations going!

I think, like our pitches for Steph Black Label or Zoom or Ink stories, an Earth One story would be pretty fun. Though I'd also be happy with a Spoiler co-star or major supporting role in a Tim Drake Robin Earth One series. Or a Cass Cain Batgirl Earth One series. Or even a Babs Batgirl Earth One series. League of Batgirls Earth One? (Okay, now I'm just going back to my Black Label pitches.  :Smile:  ).

----------


## adrikito

> I wonder whether anyone would be interested in a Spoiler Earth One story? And how would it look like though?


I would be interested.

I don´t visit this topic for.. What happened in detective comics.. I am not happy with Steph situation..

I need to see her in another comic(I heard *rumours* about one new comic with 2 members of Gotham knights in that comic, she can be one of these 2, if we are lucky..) recently in TT appreciation....




> There's gonna be a YJ book or it's just speculation?





> Speculation, but between Bart's all-but confirmed return in Flash War, the other teases we've gotten to Kon and Cassie and Tynion's saying that he's writing one more unannounced book starring two of the Gotham Knights and that he's no longer writing Bat books, it all seems to fit together.
> 
> It's almost certainly Steph as said above. The others are all confirmed to be on other teams and/or are too old for the team. Plus Tynion loves the two as a couple.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57090500415488



Or YOUNG JUSTICE season 3..

----------


## millernumber1

> I would be interested.
> 
> I don´t visit this topic for.. What happened in detective comics.. I am not in a good mode.
> 
> I need to see her in another comic(I heard rumours about one new comic with 2 members of Gotham knights in this comic).. Or YOUNG JUSTICE return..


Awww. Hopefully next week's issue of Tec will make everyone happier.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Awww. Hopefully next week's issue of Tec will make everyone happier.


Is the next week? I forgot that.

I hope that we are lucky and Steph will appear in the last detective comics cover.(like the rest of Gotham Knights) Repeat the case of Tim death. He was initially in the cover with Steph crying but then.. He "died" and for this he was not in the final cover and Steph was crying.

----------


## millernumber1

> Is the next week? I forgot that.
> 
> I hope that we are lucky and Steph will appear in the last detective comics cover.(like the rest of Gotham Knights) Repeat the case of Tim death. He was initially in the cover with Steph crying but then.. He "died" and for this he was not in the final cover and Steph was crying.


Should be! Very excited!

Yeah, I also hope that Steph will magically appear on the last Tec cover. It just feels wrong to have her left out. But...I don't want to get my hopes up too high.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm sure other people would chip in. We always get good conversations going!
> 
> I think, like our pitches for Steph Black Label or Zoom or Ink stories, an Earth One story would be pretty fun. Though I'd also be happy with a Spoiler co-star or major supporting role in a Tim Drake Robin Earth One series. Or a Cass Cain Batgirl Earth One series. Or even a Babs Batgirl Earth One series. League of Batgirls Earth One? (Okay, now I'm just going back to my Black Label pitches.  ).


Definitely, can you imagine what Stephanie on Earth One would be like though?

----------


## millernumber1

> Definitely, can you imagine what Stephanie on Earth One would be like though?


Hmmm. Well, she'd probably be much more "street", to fit with Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's Batman without eye lenses. I wonder if they'd give her a stocking for her mask?

Without an Earth One Robin of any type, though, it's tricky to try to tell what Earth One Steph would be like. Unless she was the first Robin, like in Robin #101!

----------


## Aahz

> Or a Cass Cain Batgirl Earth One series. .


Cass and Damian are not really characters that would fit in Earth One Version of Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass and Damian are not really characters that would fit in Earth One Version of Batman.


I can see Damian, with his scifi age acceleration not fitting. Why not Cass, though?

----------


## Aahz

> I can see Damian, with his scifi age acceleration not fitting. Why not Cass, though?


Her whole background and skills are way to over the top for Earth One that is (at least in Batmans case) supposed to be more down to Earth, you can dial it back of course, but I'm not sure if that wouldn't take to much away from the character. And that's similar with Damian.

I mean Batman Earth one is even more down to earth than the Nolanverse. Earth One Bruce doesn't has any of his usual Batman training (he is just trained by Alfred), his gadgets and is not a genius. Super Ninjas just don't really fit in there imo.

Both characters are in general the ones that are the hardest to adapt into alternate takes on batman.

----------


## Assam

> Her whole background and skills are way to over the top for Earth One that is (at least in Batmans case) supposed to be more down to Earth, you can dial it back of course, but I'm not sure if that wouldn't take to much away from the character. And that's similar with Damian.
> 
> I mean Batman Earth one is even more down to earth than the Nolanverse. Earth One Bruce doesn't has any of his usual Batman training (he is just trained by Alfred), his gadgets and is not a genius. Super Ninjas just don't really fit in there imo.


Leaving aside that no, dialing back her skills in an elseworlds wouldn't take anything away from her character, I'm pretty sure 'super ninjas' are still a step above a character's entire modern backstory relating to having come back from the dead on the 'realistic' scale. I know you didn't bring up Jason, but I know he's your main guy and if your problem is just realism...




> Both characters are in general the ones that are the hardest to adapt into alternate takes on batman.


How many movies has Damian been in now?

----------


## millernumber1

> Her whole background and skills are way to over the top for Earth One that is (at least in Batmans case) supposed to be more down to Earth, you can dial it back of course, but I'm not sure if that wouldn't take to much away from the character. And that's similar with Damian.
> 
> I mean Batman Earth one is even more down to earth than the Nolanverse. Earth One Bruce doesn't has any of his usual Batman training (he is just trained by Alfred), his gadgets and is not a genius. Super Ninjas just don't really fit in there imo.
> 
> Both characters are in general the ones that are the hardest to adapt into alternate takes on batman.


Hmm, interesting.

You could just make it official and Cass could be a meta. There are superpowered people in Earth One, since we have the Teen Titans, the Lanterns, and Superman.

Though the way they depict Babs' memory and hacking ability in pre-Flashpoint does seem pretty hilariously OTT in a "gritty" world, too.

Nice to know that you don't have to stretch too much to make Steph fit, though! Since they already made Lex Luthor a girl in Superman Earth One, I don't see why Steph couldn't be Robin.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> How many movies has Damian been in now?


5 movies(in Judas Contract he was more secondary).. 6 adding Death of Superman movie(cameo) and... 

Damian was in Batman Unlimited Animal, he was very different but he was called Damian in the film and he has one nightmare with his grandfather.

7 FILMS IN TOTAL.

----------


## Frontier

If Cass and Steph were to get their own Earth One books, I would imagine they would probably not have to abide by whatever is going on with the Earth One Batman books.

----------


## Assam

> 5 movies(in Judas Contract he was more secondary).. 6 adding Death of Superman movie(cameo) and... 
> 
> Damian was in Batman Unlimited Animal, he was very different but he was called Damian in the film and he has one nightmare with his grandfather.
> 
> 7 FILMS IN TOTAL.


I was being rhetorical, but thank you. 

Although you're forgetting Batman Ninja (I try to forget it exists too) and a couple smaller films.

----------


## Frontier

> I was being rhetorical, but thank you. 
> 
> Although you're forgetting Batman Ninja (I try to forget it exists too) and a couple smaller films.


Yeah, counting that and his appearances in a Lego special and the _Lego DC Superheroes_ _Gotham City Breakout_ movie makes 10.

----------


## adrikito

> I was being rhetorical, but thank you. 
> 
> Although you're forgetting Batman Ninja (I try to forget it exists too) and a couple smaller films.


I didn´t saw this film yet.. Smaller films? Both Injustice games and Lego.. no?

No matter. Soon Steph will appear in a serie.

----------


## Aahz

> You could just make it official and Cass could be a meta. There are superpowered people in Earth One, since we have the Teen Titans, the Lanterns, and Superman.


But sofar there haven't been any in Batman (I have to admitt I didn't read the other Earth One books). And I think if go to far away from the down to earth approach, Batman Earth One Kind of looses what sets him apart fro the the main continuity version.




> Though the way they depict Babs' memory and hacking ability in pre-Flashpoint does seem pretty hilariously OTT in a "gritty" world, too.


But these are not really intrinsic to her character. The DCAU version (which is probably still for many the best know version of the character) for example didn't have them afaik.




> Nice to know that you don't have to stretch too much to make Steph fit, though! Since they already made Lex Luthor a girl in Superman Earth One, I don't see why Steph couldn't be Robin.


Steph, Barbara, Jason, Tim and Dick have all pretty normal backgrounds and you have imo more freedom to change their personalities before they start to feel out of character. And that makes it easier to include.

I haven't seen Gotham by Gaslight sofar but think that it was much of a problem to have Dick, Jason and Tim in there as street kids. I don't think you could have done that easily with Damian or Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> I didn´t saw this film yet.. Smaller films? Both Injustice games and Lego.. no?
> 
> No matter. Soon Steph will appear in a serie.


Come soon, Young Justice!

But I will note that Steph appeared in the Lego games! http://stephaniebrown.wikia.com/wiki/Lego_Batman

Steph_Kate_Lego_Batman_3.jpg




> But sofar there haven't been any in Batman (I have to admitt I didn't read the other Earth One books). And I think if go to far away from the down to earth approach, Batman Earth One Kind of looses what sets him apart fro the the main continuity version.
> 
> But these are not really intrinsic to her character. The DCAU version (which is probably still for many the best know version of the character) for example didn't have them afaik.
> 
> Steph, Barbara, Jason, Tim and Dick have all pretty normal backgrounds and you have imo more freedom to change their personalities before they start to feel out of character. And that makes it easier to include.
> 
> I haven't seen Gotham by Gaslight sofar but think that it was much of a problem to have Dick, Jason and Tim in there as street kids. I don't think you could have done that easily with Damian or Cass.


I mean...I totally get what you're saying. Batman Earth One seems to be really pushing into the whole "Batman is a HUMAN", and avoiding metas also helps avoid the problem that you get with Batman on the Justice League.

But honestly, how long are you going to go before you start to get pressure to include superpowers?

Steph does have a reasonably wide range of attitudes you could write her with, though I do think that it's clear Steph fans think "pouting at Batman all the time" isn't one of them.  :Smile: 

I think that in a Victorian setting, there's plenty of room for both steampunky science and mysticism from world travels to explain extraordinary abilities. After all, Sherlock Holmes is the originator of many superhero tropes, even though he doesn't technically have superpowers (and he's definitely the origin for much of Batman's World's Greatest Detective ability).

----------


## Aahz

> But honestly, how long are you going to go before you start to get pressure to include superpowers?


With the current rate of publishing these books, quite long. 




> I think that in a Victorian setting, there's plenty of room for both steampunky science and mysticism from world travels to explain extraordinary abilities. After all, Sherlock Holmes is the originator of many superhero tropes, even though he doesn't technically have superpowers (and he's definitely the origin for much of Batman's World's Greatest Detective ability).


But it is just easier and more flexible if you don't need to explain anything. And if you can bring them in is very dependent on the genre of the story. And Sherlock Holmes was afiak not very Steampunky originally.

----------


## millernumber1

> With the current rate of publishing these books, quite long. 
> 
> But it is just easier and more flexible if you don't need to explain anything. And if you can bring them in is very dependent on the genre of the story. And Sherlock Holmes was afiak not very Steampunky originally.


You have a point about the publishing schedule. I'm really not sure what DC is thinking in terms of the long-term plan. Right now, it really feels like they're vanity afterthoughts for A-list creators (at least for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman), and basically Elseworlds for lesser known creators (Green Lantern, Teen Titans).

It is dependent on the genre - but stories should be easy, I think.

I mean, I'm not sure why Gotham by Gaslight being a continuing narrative is a big issue, since I really don't think its reception was strong enough to justify more films in that continuity. But that could just be because I didn't enjoy it that much.

That being said, seeing Street Urchin Tim meet either Street Urchin Steph, or Steph the spunky girl chafing at societal expectations would be pretty cute.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Hmmm. Well, she'd probably be much more "street", to fit with Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's Batman without eye lenses. I wonder if they'd give her a stocking for her mask?
> 
> Without an Earth One Robin of any type, though, it's tricky to try to tell what Earth One Steph would be like. Unless she was the first Robin, like in Robin #101!


It might not be too hard to simply re-imagine Tim as an IT employee dating Stephanie a young nurse at a hospital though.

----------


## millernumber1

> It might not be too hard to simply re-imagine Tim as an IT employee dating Stephanie a young nurse at a hospital though.


True, but that would age them up a bit more than I'd really want to. Also, I want them to be heroes!  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> I mean, I'm not sure why Gotham by Gaslight being a continuing narrative is a big issue, since I really don't think its reception was strong enough to justify more films in that continuity. But that could just be because I didn't enjoy it that much.


 Gotham by Gaslight was just an example to show that you reimagine some character quite easily, while others need more explanation (or in Damians case also some requirements in terms of the timeline).

Btw. Tims Father appeared actually in Batman Earth One #2.

----------


## millernumber1

> Gotham by Gaslight was just an example to show that you reimagine some character quite easily, while others need more explanation (or in Damians case also some requirements in terms of the timeline).


It's also sadly an example of breaking a character so badly that it renders their whole connected relationship web unusable. Spoilers on the ending of Gotham by Gaslight!:

*spoilers:*
Even though it leaves the door open to Steph or Cass being Batgirl, because Gordon is the villain of Gotham by Gaslight, I'm really torn on whether I'd rather have Steph as Batgirl and Gordon evil, thus no Babs, or not. Because I really do love Babs. And that twist was really, really nasty and left a very bad taste in my mouth.
*end of spoilers*

Now I kind of want to write tiny ficlets about Steph in the Gaslight era, though.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> True, but that would age them up a bit more than I'd really want to. Also, I want them to be heroes!


Well it helps to keep things within the hyper realistic world of Batman Earth One. They can still be heroes they just need to be more discreet about it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it helps to keep things within the hyper realistic world of Batman Earth One. They can still be heroes they just need to be more discreet about it.


True. I guess we'll have to wait for DICK GRAYSON EARTH ONE. Nevermind the fact that it's an AU, and you could do any of the Robins first.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> True. I guess we'll have to wait for DICK GRAYSON EARTH ONE. Nevermind the fact that it's an AU, and you could do any of the Robins first.


True but to get to Stephanie faster I guess it would be easier to have a Red Robin: Earth One to happen. Only problem is that without Batman behind them there's no way any of them will become heroes.

----------


## millernumber1

> True but to get to Stephanie faster I guess it would be easier to have a Red Robin: Earth One to happen. Only problem is that without Batman behind them there's no way any of them will become heroes.


Yes. But honestly, I think Batman by himself is pretty boring. He needs Robins and Batgirls right quick!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes. But honestly, I think Batman by himself is pretty boring. He needs Robins and Batgirls right quick!


Well Batman already exist in more than one Earth One story it is remarkable that none of the Batgirls or Robins are even there with him. Apart from Tim's parents is there any indication that Dick or Barbara or even Jason exist on Earth One?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Batman already exist in more than one Earth One story it is remarkable that none of the Batgirls or Robins are even there with him. Apart from Tim's parents is there any indication that Dick or Barbara or even Jason exist on Earth One?


I've only skimmed Earth One, so I don't really know. And much as I admire Gary Frank as an artist, I don't find that he often actually moves me or makes me amazed (and honestly the same goes for Johns as a writer). I really wish they would make some kind of game plan for the Earth One stuff, though.

Of course, I could say the same thing about the current line of Batbooks, which feel kind of aimless at this point without a big statement from Jamie Rich. I personally think Rich should give a press conference just saying, "And now, Steph and Cass will star in all books."  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've only skimmed Earth One, so I don't really know. And much as I admire Gary Frank as an artist, I don't find that he often actually moves me or makes me amazed (and honestly the same goes for Johns as a writer). I really wish they would make some kind of game plan for the Earth One stuff, though.
> 
> Of course, I could say the same thing about the current line of Batbooks, which feel kind of aimless at this point without a big statement from Jamie Rich. I personally think Rich should give a press conference just saying, "And now, Steph and Cass will star in all books."


You don't say? Well here's hoping that at some point DC will give a clear statement about the direction of the Earth One line. Though I am under the general impression is that they are supposed to be re-imaginnings of their characters while trying to remain true to their core roots as characters.

----------


## millernumber1

> You don't say? Well here's hoping that at some point DC will give a clear statement about the direction of the Earth One line. Though I am under the general impression is that they are supposed to be re-imaginnings of their characters while trying to remain true to their core roots as characters.


I mean...Earth One seems like an OGN-only version of the Ultimate Universe for DC. But the problem is they don't have a strict schedule, so the whole thing seems incredibly stalled. If they just said, "We'll release one OGN a year" I think it would be much better. But I think they were trying to do it like they're doing Black Label - but Earth One isn't the kind of "high quality" branding they need to justify it.

Also, it doesn't have Steph in it yet, so clearly it's inferior.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean...Earth One seems like an OGN-only version of the Ultimate Universe for DC. But the problem is they don't have a strict schedule, so the whole thing seems incredibly stalled. If they just said, "We'll release one OGN a year" I think it would be much better. But I think they were trying to do it like they're doing Black Label - but Earth One isn't the kind of "high quality" branding they need to justify it.
> 
> Also, it doesn't have Steph in it yet, so clearly it's inferior.


So far DC has released one more Earth One story Green Lantern it's a good read and actually remains pretty true to the core of Green Lantern in so many ways. But Earth One seems to sell well enough as despite being reviled Wonder Woman Earth One is getting a second volume despite the fact it goes really far back to Wonder Woman's original roots as a character. Well at some point DC will have to pull the trigger and add Stephanie to the Earth One series. If Tim's parents are there he and Stephanie can't be far behind.

----------


## millernumber1

> So far DC has released one more Earth One story Green Lantern it's a good read and actually remains pretty true to the core of Green Lantern in so many ways. But Earth One seems to sell well enough as despite being reviled Wonder Woman Earth One is getting a second volume despite the fact it goes really far back to Wonder Woman's original roots as a character. Well at some point DC will have to pull the trigger and add Stephanie to the Earth One series. If Tim's parents are there he and Stephanie can't be far behind.


Since the only Green Lantern story arc I've read is Omega Men  :Smile: , I probably wouldn't know if the Earth One story was true or not to the spirit.

Earth One does sell well, because they give it A list creators, and it's a nice jumping on point. But if they want people to actually stick with it, I think they're going to need to build it as a universe, rather than a semi-prestige projects for a couple of people.

I was one of the people who really didn't like Wonder Woman Earth One, but it's a Grant Morrison book, and so it'll sell. (It's really a shame, since Rucka's Wonder Woman Year One was much better than either Earth One or The True Amazon.)

Johns has been pretty supportive of Steph in Teen Titans (with the way he handled Steph as Robin). So there's definitely hope!

----------


## adrikito

I know that is not important(but is related with Steph) I visit Gleason twitter sometimes and today I saw Young Justice Outsiders Logo:

young-justice-outsiders-logo.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I know that is not important(but is related with Steph) I visit Gleason twitter sometimes and today I saw Young Justice Outsiders Logo:
> 
> young-justice-outsiders-logo.jpg


Is very important! Young Justice is the biggest reason I'm planning to subscribe to this service.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/2177630

Woot Woot

----------


## millernumber1

> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/2177630
> 
> Woot Woot


Oooh, thanks for the heads up! There goes $250 from me! (I told them I would give them money if they had Steph!)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oooh, thanks for the heads up! There goes $250 from me! (I told them I would give them money if they had Steph!)


You know for all of Didio's anti-Stephanie stance he sure seems weird to allow her to appear on merchandise like this game and the LEGO Batman series.

----------


## Assam

> You know for all of Didio's anti-Stephanie stance he sure seems weird to allow her to appear on merchandise like this game and the LEGO Batman series.


DiDio has zero say about any of this.

----------


## millernumber1

> DiDio has zero say about any of this.


Beat me to it! I really doubt that Didio has much control over merchandising. After all, we're getting a Spoiler action figure from Wal-mart later this year.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Beat me to it! I really doubt that Didio has much control over merchandising. After all, we're getting a Spoiler action figure from Wal-mart later this year.


It's still not good form to try to keep her out not when Stephanie's part of DC's money making machinese




> DiDio has zero say about any of this.


Good to know that.

----------


## Frontier

I'm always a little bummed when I don't see them go for the full facemask...

----------


## AlvinDraper

Ugh I'm still hyped by this! 
https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57090500415488
Please be Steph & Tim...I need them together again, even if its just a team-up

----------


## millernumber1

> Ugh I'm still hyped by this! 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...57090500415488
> Please be Steph & Tim...I need them together again, even if its just a team-up


It's been so long...okay, only a month. But I want to know!  :Smile:

----------


## AlvinDraper

> It's been so long...okay, only a month. But I want to know!


Right?! C'mon DC, I need some reason to read comics

----------


## millernumber1

> Right?! C'mon DC, I need some reason to read comics


I mean, I do have a couple other comics that I love right now, but Steph in a comic is a sure-fire read for me!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

So: just 5 days until Steph learns that she was once Batgirl. What do we all think her reactions will be?

----------


## Assam

> So: just 5 days until Steph learns that she was once Batgirl. What do we all think her reactions will be?


'Kiss me, sexy Batgirl."

----------


## millernumber1

> 'Kiss me, sexy Batgirl."


To herself or to Cass?  :Wink:

----------


## Frontier

"Maybe being a vigilante isn't all that bad"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> "maybe being a vigilante isn't all that bad" .


somebody save me!  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> To herself or to Cass?


'Stephanie, you know that's _you_, right?" 
"Yeah Yeah Batsy, you do your thing I'll do mine." 

Alternatively, both.

----------


## millernumber1

> 'Stephanie, you know that's _you_, right?" 
> "Yeah Yeah Batsy, you do your thing I'll do mine." 
> 
> Alternatively, both.


Amazing! Works for me.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Now I'm just imagining Steph seeing herself in her Batgirl costume and admiring herself  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Now I'm just imagining Steph seeing herself in her Batgirl costume and admiring herself .


It does seem like she might get a bad case of the Stephs...  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Meanwhile with Cass: 

'I'm...tall?" 
"And buff! Don't forget crazy buff!" 
"Go home, Stephanie!"

----------


## Frontier

> Meanwhile with Cass: 
> 
> 'I'm...tall?" 
> "And buff! Don't forget crazy buff!" 
> "Go home, Stephanie!"


"You actually look really good in a cape and ears"  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Meanwhile with Cass: 
> 
> 'I'm...tall?" 
> "And buff! Don't forget crazy buff!" 
> "Go home, Stephanie!"


Also, isn't Cass still crazy buff? But maybe less scarred.  :Smile: 




> "You actually look really good in a cape and ears" .


DC, TAKE NOTES!!!!!

----------


## TheCape

> Now I'm just imagining Steph seeing herself in her Batgirl costume and admiring herself .


Who wouldn't  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Frontier

> Who wouldn't .


I'd never begrudge anyone for it  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Who wouldn't .


Batgirl 21.jpg

Not me!

----------


## AlvinDraper

By @mmhfmmfff on Twitter
DcRRdYWU8AEqxZj.jpg_large.jpg

Did they ever met before the reebot?

----------


## millernumber1

> By @mmhfmmfff on Twitter
> DcRRdYWU8AEqxZj.jpg_large.jpg
> 
> Did they ever met before the reebot?


Sort of. In Wonder Woman #600:

Wonder_Woman_600_(04).jpg

----------


## adrikito

> By @mmhfmmfff on Twitter
> DcRRdYWU8AEqxZj.jpg_large.jpg
> 
> Did they ever met before the reebot?


Thanks for the image, I liked.




> Now I'm just imagining Steph seeing herself in her Batgirl costume and admiring herself .


I would like to see this.

----------


## The Whovian

> So: just 5 days until Steph learns that she was once Batgirl. What do we all think her reactions will be?


I would love to see her call up Babs and say "Take off my costume because I'm putting it back on."

----------


## millernumber1

> I would love to see her call up Babs and say "Take off my costume because I'm putting it back on."


That would be hilarious. But I don't want Burnside Steph  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> I would love to see her call up Babs and say "Take off my costume because I'm putting it back on."


I understand the intent, but I don't really see that happening, if only because I don't see Steph being that possessive of the mantle. 

I would say she also probably respects Babs too much, but they're relationship his been pretty underdeveloped so I can't say that with any certainty...

----------


## millernumber1

> I understand the intent, but I don't really see that happening, if only because I don't see Steph being that possessive of the mantle. 
> 
> I would say she also probably respects Babs too much, but they're relationship his been pretty underdeveloped so I can't say that with any certainty...


I mean, it was a pretty good relationship in Batgirl 46-52, and the 3rd Annual.

Still hoping for League of Batgirl...

----------


## millernumber1

> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/2177630
> 
> Woot Woot


I HAVE PLEDGED! I told them I was out if Steph was out, and back if she was included, and since they held up their end of the bargain, I have ordered the core set, Wayne Manor, and the Batmobile!

Steph Gotham City Chronicles.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

IT'S HERE!

Everybody go get it! It's even better than I'd hoped!  :Smile:

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Have it in my pull list.

----------


## adrikito

*The only thing you just told me is that no matter what timeline I´m in, I am freaking amazing*(BEST WORDS IN THE CHAPTER) with the best sisters in the image.

DC Detective Comics Stephanie Brown Spoiler Cassandra Cain Orphan.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Have it in my pull list.





> *The only thing you just told me is that no matter what timeline I´m in, I am freaking amazing*(BEST WORDS IN THE CHAPTER) with the best sisters in the image.
> 
> DC Detective Comics Stephanie Brown Spoiler Cassandra Cain Orphan.jpg


It's so good!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> *The only thing you just told me is that no matter what timeline I´m in, I am freaking amazing*(BEST WORDS IN THE CHAPTER) with the best sisters in the image.
> 
> DC Detective Comics Stephanie Brown Spoiler Cassandra Cain Orphan.jpg


Even though Armor of God went so far as to call this some attempt by Tynion to score nostalgia point it's already a step in the right direction for both Cassandra and Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> Even though Armor of God went so far as to call this some attempt by Tynion to score nostalgia point it's already a step in the right direction for both Cassandra and Stephanie.


I have no problems with nostalgia points. My love for Steph is filled with nostalgia.  :Smile:

----------


## Vanguard-01

Soooooo, does this mean Steph has ended that godawful supervillain kick she was on?

----------


## millernumber1

> Soooooo, does this mean Steph has ended that godawful supervillain kick she was on?


It looks like it. I'm really hopeful that Tynion manages to wrap it up in two weeks without having her go back to it again.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> *The only thing you just told me is that no matter what timeline I´m in, I am freaking amazing*(BEST WORDS IN THE CHAPTER) with the best sisters in the image.
> 
> Attachment 65681


it was so FREAKING GOOD! REALLY! first time in years that Steph feels like...Steph

----------


## millernumber1

> it was so FREAKING GOOD! REALLY! first time in years that Steph feels like...Steph


I think we've gotten a few flashes of Steph since 2014:

Batman Eternal #24, when she took out her dad
Punching Lincoln March
Training with Eiko in Catwoman
Sassing Scarecrow in Batman and Robin Eternal
Becoming a confident hero in Batgirl #46-52 (this was, admittedly, a very patchy set of appearances, but I loved the way she stood in for Babs near the end of the run).
Pushing Tim to make the right choices in Rise of the Batmen

----------


## adrikito

After this ending and her last words.. SHE SHOULD APPEAR WITH THE REST OF CHARACTERS OF TYNION RUN IN THE 981 COVER.

----------


## millernumber1

> After this ending and her last words.. SHE SHOULD APPEAR WITH THE REST OF CHARACTERS OF TYNION RUN IN THE 981 COVER.


I agree, but apparently DC does not  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

I hope that *this rumour about a new serie with 2 members of Bat Knights* can be real(because we never saw Shazam and Jsociety in rebirth) with Steph as one of them.

----------


## AlvinDraper

> I think we've gotten a few flashes of Steph since 2014:
> 
> Batman Eternal #24, when she took out her dad
> Punching Lincoln March
> Training with Eiko in Catwoman
> Sassing Scarecrow in Batman and Robin Eternal
> Becoming a confident hero in Batgirl #46-52 (this was, admittedly, a very patchy set of appearances, but I loved the way she stood in for Babs near the end of the run).
> Pushing Tim to make the right choices in Rise of the Batmen


well, 2016 was the last time she felt like my Steph, I'm glad I got to see her again in 2018




> After this ending and her last words.. SHE SHOULD APPEAR WITH THE REST OF CHARACTERS OF TYNION RUN IN THE 981 COVER.


Ugh YES! She was part of the original team!

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope that *this rumour about a new serie with 2 members of Bat Knights* can be real(because we never saw Shazam and Jsociety in rebirth) with Steph as one of them.


I hope so too! I just don't want to be too disappointed if it's not...




> well, 2016 was the last time she felt like my Steph, I'm glad I got to see her again in 2018
> 
> Ugh YES! She was part of the original team!


Yes she is! And I actually like both Victim Syndicate and Wrath of Spoiler, but she's definitely not quite herself there, and Utopia-Fall of the Batmen is just not great for Steph, except for the Tim kiss.  :Smile:

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I hope so too! I just don't want to be too disappointed if it's not...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes she is! And I actually like both Victim Syndicate and Wrath of Spoiler, but she's definitely not quite herself there, and Utopia-Fall of the Batmen is just not great for Steph, except for the Tim kiss.


Yeah I would agree it wasn't the best for her, but then again, Dixon himself did do some shady things with her early on, so it kind of reminded me of the angrier Steph from back then. Tim kiss was great, can we get more of those please!!!!

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah I would agree it wasn't the best for her, but then again, Dixon himself did do some shady things with her early on, so it kind of reminded me of the angrier Steph from back then. Tim kiss was great, can we get more of those please!!!!


Yes, there is definitely a lot of early Steph in there - the Steph who dressed up to beat up her dad in jail.

The Tim kiss was so much of a callback to when Steph herself returned from the dead. I loved it!

----------


## Cmbmool

It's long Overdue for Steph to relearn her former time as Robin and Batgirl. IF ANYTHING CAN COME FROM DOOMSDAY CLOCK, then let Steph regain her position in the Batman family.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's long Overdue for Steph to relearn her former time as Robin and Batgirl. IF ANYTHING CAN COME FROM DOOMSDAY CLOCK, then let Steph regain her position in the Batman family.


Agreed! I want a Steph who is part of the Batfamily, even though she does her own thing.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Agreed! I want a Steph who is part of the Batfamily, even though she does her own thing.


I just hope Tynion will make sure to do something to satisfy those readers who are not too taken by what happened in Wrath of Spoiler which made Stephanie look like a hypocrite.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just hope Tynion will make sure to do something to satisfy those readers who are not too taken by what happened in Wrath of Spoiler which made Stephanie look like a hypocrite.


But Steph WAS a hypocrite. That was the point. She was learning and growing. At least, that's how I'm reading it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> But Steph WAS a hypocrite. That was the point. She was learning and growing. At least, that's how I'm reading it.


Well it didn't seem that way to me she seemed oblivious to her own hypocrisy which is worrisome for her popularity. She already still has some haters leftover from War Games.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it didn't seem that way to me she seemed oblivious to her own hypocrisy which is worrisome for her popularity. She already still has some haters leftover from War Games.


Well, she realized her hypocrisy in "Utopia." Sadly, that arc was not well done (and by a guest writer), so I don't think people got it.

The haters from War Games are the type of people who think it's fun to wish torture and death of fictional characters. I'm not too bothered by that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, she realized her hypocrisy in "Utopia." Sadly, that arc was not well done (and by a guest writer), so I don't think people got it.
> 
> The haters from War Games are the type of people who think it's fun to wish torture and death of fictional characters. I'm not too bothered by that.


Hmm not sure Stephanie realised her hypocrisy in Utopia not when she still wanted Tim to give up vigilantism. But how did you see that my memory's a little foggy. Well it's not just those who wish death and torture on fictional characters who hate her. At least one guy I know thinks when she came back from the dead Stephanie should not have been welcomed back too quickly for causing the Gotham Gang War by accident. This was a guy who liked Stephanie and saw as the sign of what could happen if one worked hard enough. But then when the Gotham Gang War erupted he lost his liking for her.

----------


## millernumber1

> Hmm not sure Stephanie realised her hypocrisy in Utopia not when she still wanted Tim to give up vigilantism. But how did you see that my memory's a little foggy. Well it's not just those who wish death and torture on fictional characters who hate her. At least one guy I know thinks when she came back from the dead Stephanie should not have been welcomed back too quickly for causing the Gotham Gang War by accident. This was a guy who liked Stephanie and saw as the sign of what could happen if one worked hard enough. But then when the Gotham Gang War erupted he lost his liking for her.


Steph definitely realized her hypocrisy - when Anarky asked her "Would Batman have done this?" she says "yup, he trained me on doing it." And further muses that everything she's been doing is what Batman does.

I think Steph wanted Tim to give up being a vigilante because she thought it was best for him, with his specific gifting. I don't think she was against it in total, after the events of Utopia.

There are a couple of people like that. I've talked to them, and I know they're not the same as the people who wished Steph had actually stayed dead. But I think that argument doesn't hold water, because:

1) Steph's INTENTIONS were not to start the war. As far as we know, the plan was for Orpheus to take control. (This is weakened by how stupid the writing in War Games became, but the first third indicated that the plan went WRONG, and that's why there was a war.)

2) Steph paid for it in blood. Even though she didn't die, she was tortured for a LONG time (I don't know if it was hours or days, but it was really long and really nasty.)

3) Steph's whole career as Batgirl was an attempt to make Gotham better, in part motivated by her guilt for War Games. So there's another way she was paying for it.

4) I'm always puzzled by what this type of argument wants. How do they think Steph should pay for her "sins"?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Steph definitely realized her hypocrisy - when Anarky asked her "Would Batman have done this?" she says "yup, he trained me on doing it." And further muses that everything she's been doing is what Batman does.
> 
> I think Steph wanted Tim to give up being a vigilante because she thought it was best for him, with his specific gifting. I don't think she was against it in total, after the events of Utopia.
> 
> There are a couple of people like that. I've talked to them, and I know they're not the same as the people who wished Steph had actually stayed dead. But I think that argument doesn't hold water, because:
> 
> 1) Steph's INTENTIONS were not to start the war. As far as we know, the plan was for Orpheus to take control. (This is weakened by how stupid the writing in War Games became, but the first third indicated that the plan went WRONG, and that's why there was a war.)
> 
> 2) Steph paid for it in blood. Even though she didn't die, she was tortured for a LONG time (I don't know if it was hours or days, but it was really long and really nasty.)
> ...


Huh I must have skimmed that part I really wish she had stuck around to hear Batman tell her that Tim was alive then she could have dealt with the future Tim and maybe mend bridges between her and the Batfamily. I getting the impression that that one person who lost his liking for Stephanie wanted Stephanie to be confronted for what happened and doesn't care for the shoddy writing and overlooks the accident part of the Gotham Gang War. As long as it did happen he wants her to be confronted over it.

----------


## millernumber1

> Huh I must have skimmed that part I really wish she had stuck around to hear Batman tell her that Tim was alive then she could have dealt with the future Tim and maybe mend bridges between her and the Batfamily. I getting the impression that that one person who lost his liking for Stephanie wanted Stephanie to be confronted for what happened and doesn't care for the shoddy writing and overlooks the accident part of the Gotham Gang War. As long as it did happen he wants her to be confronted over it.


I really wish they hadn't done Utopia in the way they did. It was basically an incredibly frustrating filler arc, and Steph missing Batman telling her that Tim's alive is a big part of that.

Steph was confronted, by Babs, explicitly, in Batgirl #2, about her part in War Games. I feel like a lot of people want Steph to be punished by staying dead or something. Like...she was tortured nearly to death, and had to take a year recovering, away from everyone who loved her except Leslie. What more do you want?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I really wish they hadn't done Utopia in the way they did. It was basically an incredibly frustrating filler arc, and Steph missing Batman telling her that Tim's alive is a big part of that.
> 
> Steph was confronted, by Babs, explicitly, in Batgirl #2, about her part in War Games. I feel like a lot of people want Steph to be punished by staying dead or something. Like...she was tortured nearly to death, and had to take a year recovering, away from everyone who loved her except Leslie. What more do you want?


Since Tim's death a lot things in Detective Comics stumbled at the finish line and Utopia was made even worse by how the writer tried to do too much at once. Well I guess when it comes down to it the answer is simple hatred is a irrational. And comic book fans are the ones most prone to that irrationality there's no point in trying to please anybody. They should just take things as they come because I feel like comic book fans are way too immersed into a reality that's fictional it's kind of creepy.

----------


## reni344

I think the first time I read Steph was in War Games I had no idea who she was I think I stumbled into it because I was reading Catwoman at the time. This is years after War Games had come out, I was also reading Geoff Johns Teen Titans and saw a female Robin and later found out that  she was the female robin. That got me interested to see what else she was in and I found out she was Batgirl and then read all of her Batgirl series. That is also how I found out about Cass too by the way I first read her in Teen Titans and then she appeared in Steph's Batgirl series and that made me look up who this character was.

----------


## millernumber1

> Since Tim's death a lot things in Detective Comics stumbled at the finish line and Utopia was made even worse by how the writer tried to do too much at once. Well I guess when it comes down to it the answer is simple hatred is a irrational. And comic book fans are the ones most prone to that irrationality there's no point in trying to please anybody. They should just take things as they come because I feel like comic book fans are way too immersed into a reality that's fictional it's kind of creepy.


Well, we are fanatics.  :Smile:  But I agree. I am all for getting really invested in characters (no, really?  :Wink:  ), but it's a hobby, not my life.




> I think the first time I read Steph was in War Games I had no idea who she was I think I stumbled into it because I was reading Catwoman at the time. This is years after War Games had come out, I was also reading Geoff Johns Teen Titans and saw a female Robin and later found out that  she was the female robin. That got me interested to see what else she was in and I found out she was Batgirl and then read all of her Batgirl series. That is also how I found out about Cass too by the way I first read her in Teen Titans and then she appeared in Steph's Batgirl series and that made me look up who this character was.


Interesting! I think I'd seen a couple things with Steph before War Games - the issue of Batgirl where Cass knocks her out all the time (which I thought was funny at the time, and I thought Steph was annoying, but now I strongly dislike that issue), and read something about her giving her baby up for adoption in a DC encyclopedia, but War Games was the first time I really noticed Steph as a character (of course, I really wanted her to live, but she died and I was very sad). It's so fun how reading one or two things becomes reading lots of side things that interest you. All part of the great fan experience!  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, we are fanatics.  But I agree. I am all for getting really invested in characters (no, really?  ), but it's a hobby, not my life.


Indeed some folks really should just take some time away from comics and maybe see a therapist because I know people have read comics as a means of coping with their life's issues but to be way too invested is a sign that they should step back and take a look at their lives. I actually propposed to a friedn to help me with a project where Marvle and DC characters are not necessary for the future of mankind and well he didn't like the idea.

----------


## Caivu

By David Yett:

Screenshot_20180511-141219.jpg

----------


## adrikito

The Hooded Robins:

Attachment 65786

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?

----------


## Chickfighter

> Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?


Don't get carried away, but there's "always run for hope..."

----------


## millernumber1

> The Hooded Robins:
> 
> Attachment 65786


Cool image! Who drew it?




> Just a weird thought, if they're making steph being Batgirl cannon, does that mean that that the hints of BMQ having her be the future Nightwing is still an option now?


Not in the Titans of Tomorrow future, at least what we have seen so far.




> Don't get carried away, but there's "always run for hope..."


Steph, as always, said it best!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

NOTHING IMPORTANT(because this don´t confirm her presence here and we are talking about another universe), BUT..  I like to see that other people that remembers her with love after the bad events of the last year.

https://www.newsarama.com/39922-how-...-a-sequel.html

If Murphy takes Batman off the table as he hinted in his final panel, then despite the existence of the GTO, more criminals can come crawling out the woodwork.* Murphy has shown a knack for using various members of Bruce's inner-circle after all, with Duke Thomas even being retconned into an urban military leader. This leaves room for new faces such as Tim Drake, Azrael, and Spoiler to appear as new vigilantes who might not be too trusting of the GTO*, because at the end of the day, taxpayers are footing the bill, which means Gordon will have to be held accountable and that he may be receiving direction from financiers.

----------


## millernumber1

> NOTHING IMPORTANT(because this don´t confirm her presence here and we are talking about another universe), BUT..  I like to see that other people that remembers her with love after the bad events of the last year.
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/39922-how-...-a-sequel.html
> 
> If Murphy takes Batman off the table as he hinted in his final panel, then despite the existence of the GTO, more criminals can come crawling out the woodwork.* Murphy has shown a knack for using various members of Bruce's inner-circle after all, with Duke Thomas even being retconned into an urban military leader. This leaves room for new faces such as Tim Drake, Azrael, and Spoiler to appear as new vigilantes who might not be too trusting of the GTO*, because at the end of the day, taxpayers are footing the bill, which means Gordon will have to be held accountable and that he may be receiving direction from financiers.


That would be pretty cool! Murphy did write one of the best Dukes that has been written!

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Cool image! Who drew it?
> 
> 
> 
> Not in the Titans of Tomorrow future, at least what we have seen so far.


Darn, well that's okay...there's always a different future...






> Steph, as always, said it best!


Agreed.

I have to wonder how many people will now get to know Steph because of the new show and streaming service?

----------


## millernumber1

So, the final digital issue of Bombshells United (#38 digital, #19 in floppy next month on the 6th) has one image and one reference of Steph as a Bat-girl all in purple, spoiling crime all over Gotham. Bit late, but nice to know she isn't completely ignored.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> So, the final digital issue of Bombshells United (#38 digital, #19 in floppy next month on the 6th) has one image and one reference of Steph as a Bat-girl all in purple, spoiling crime all over Gotham. Bit late, but nice to know she isn't completely ignored.


Good to know, wish she was involved in the series more though. You would think that it would cover all the women in DC.

----------


## millernumber1

> Good to know, wish she was involved in the series more though. You would think that it would cover all the women in DC.


Yup. Still infuriated at the choices of Bat Girls. But Steph as the hope of the future is nice, if not enough.

----------


## millernumber1

Here's a pic of Steph as the Girl all in Purple.

----------


## adrikito

> Here's a pic of Steph as the Girl all in Purple.


OK. I visited Stephanie Brown wiki for confirm this.

Even if I don´t see bombshells comic. I am happy for her.

----------


## Dataweaver

OK; I just read Detective 980. Even if she continues to call herself Spoiler, I want her to incorporate a bat emblem into her costume by the end of the next issue. And after that? Is love too see her and Cassandra join up with the Birds of Prey, or costar in a new Gotham Knights title along with Tim.

----------


## millernumber1

> OK; I just read Detective 980. Even if she continues to call herself Spoiler, I want her to incorporate a bat emblem into her costume by the end of the next issue. And after that? Is love too see her and Cassandra join up with the Birds of Prey, or costar in a new Gotham Knights title along with Tim.


I don't know if current Steph would feel the Bat for with her philosophy. Unless we get her as Robin or Batgirl completely, I don't really feel the need for a Bat. She is Steph, and a great character. I have wavered in my defense of Tynion's last arc, but I am fully onboard again.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

My issue is I don't think of a Bat-emblem when I think of "Spoiler," even if I'd rather see her more accepting and supportive of the Bat then she has been in this run.  

But Cass could definitely use one.

----------


## millernumber1

> My issue is I don't think of a Bat-emblem when I think of "Spoiler," even if I'd rather see her more accepting and supportive of the Bat then she has been in this run.  
> 
> But Cass could definitely use one.


Agree completely about Cass. And much as I actually like Steph as Robin and Batgirl more than Spoiler in most cases (partly because of her awesome costumes), I agree that she is fiercely independent.

----------


## adrikito

BATGIRL STEPH in deviantart:

Stephanie Brown Batgirl tech_support.jpg

----------


## AlvinDraper

By epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter

----------


## Frontier

> By epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter


Super adorable  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## adrikito

> By epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter


How cute is Steph here.

----------


## adrikito

In the end, Steph is not in the cover.  :Frown: 

She continues with the same of the last chapter, Brother Eye has not gone away yet.

----------


## millernumber1

> BATGIRL STEPH in deviantart:
> 
> Attachment 66085


Haha. At first I didn't understand what was going on, but I found this: https://polmanning.deviantart.com/ar...-Fan-730797476 - which explains that Babs put the hat on Kara, and now Steph has to take it off. Steph, always fixing Babs' messes.  :Wink: 




> By epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter


SO CUTE! I LOVE it!




> In the end, Steph is not in the cover.
> 
> She continues with the same of the last chapter, Brother Eye has not gone away yet.


Yeah. At least Steph is clearly still a big part of the finale. I am really bummed that we're not getting an updated cover, but I read this awesome post about this coming issue on tumblr here: 

http://incoherentbabblings.tumblr.co...action-between

_The comparisons between this and 940 are really interesting!  Tim was fighting hundreds of machines, Steph will be essentially fighting one.  After drawing the attention of the machines, Tim used his hand to hand skills to take the drones out, whilst Steph is appealing to emotion.  Tim was alone and far away from any help, Steph has Cass and Bruce protecting her  (which is probably the ideal combo tbh).  Both Steph and Tim fought for the hope of a better future, Tim’s was an idealised and easily corruptible one, Steph after so long of not knowing what to fight for, now knows what the world can be now, a tangible ideal to aim for.  I just hope this issue has a happier end that 940 did…  

#my joy at Steph being positioned as Tim's reason to hope versus the fear of the reason of her not being on the cover of Tynion's last issue#has me conflicted#but boY!!#Ulysses is trying to kill her so she'll try to break through to the one person who can stop the attack for good_

I hadn't even thought about this parallel, but that's brilliant! Tynion is the kind of guy who likes to layer in these kinds of carefully constructed callbacks. 100% bet we're going to get some kind of callback to the Bruce/Steph hug in 940 - he's done that at least three or four times in this run so far, and he mentioned it specifically at AwesomeCon this year, so it's definitely still on his mind.

SO HYPE!

----------


## millernumber1

Well, today's issue of Tec had some really great Steph moments! Even though we didn't get her on the cover, she did a nice variation on the "love will conquer the evil AI" plan we thought was going to happen last issue. And she and Tim drove off into the literal sunset/sunrise (not sure which, probably rise) like Peter and MJ in Ultimate Spider-Man. It was so lovely. Even though I don't know if they're actually dating again, or just friends. Whatever it is, I'm really glad she's out of her bitterness and anger, and Tim's being honest with her again.

This issue is definitely an 9/10 for me, and the run as a whole 8/10. Steph's individual part in the run is probably overall a 7/10, because of the dreadfulness of Utopia and the flaws of Fall of the Batmen for Steph (though I still think it's really good for Cass and Clayface), but the end of her arc is definitely bumped up to an 8 with the Batgirl and Robin honoring and her active part in the finale.

----------


## AlvinDraper

Oh I loved the issue and Steph definitely was one of the reasons for me to like it, she was so good in there and that moment when she punched Ulysses was GREAT! and the ending with Steph and Tim having the good ending (for now, anyways) was my favorite thing there. Just a bit sad that we didn't have her on the cover :/

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh I loved the issue and Steph definitely was one of the reasons for me to like it, she was so good in there and that moment when she punched Ulysses was GREAT! and the ending with Steph and Tim having the good ending (for now, anyways) was my favorite thing there. Just a bit sad that we didn't have her on the cover :/


The Ulysses punch is definitely a callback to Steph's "I'M BATMAN" moment in Batman Eternal #52. A lot of great callbacks to Tynion's whole career here, including having Steph parallel Tim's action in 940, when he faced the drones.

Steph and Tim driving off was really sweet. I'm not sure that they're back together romantically (though they both definitely still love each other), but Tim being honest with her, and her opening up to people again was really important to me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, today's issue of Tec had some really great Steph moments! Even though we didn't get her on the cover, she did a nice variation on the "love will conquer the evil AI" plan we thought was going to happen last issue. And she and Tim drove off into the literal sunset/sunrise (not sure which, probably rise) like Peter and MJ in Ultimate Spider-Man. It was so lovely. Even though I don't know if they're actually dating again, or just friends. Whatever it is, I'm really glad she's out of her bitterness and anger, and Tim's being honest with her again.
> 
> This issue is definitely an 9/10 for me, and the run as a whole 8/10. Steph's individual part in the run is probably overall a 7/10, because of the dreadfulness of Utopia and the flaws of Fall of the Batmen for Steph (though I still think it's really good for Cass and Clayface), but the end of her arc is definitely bumped up to an 8 with the Batgirl and Robin honoring and her active part in the finale.


Well unfortunately Tynion won't be writing for Tim and Stephanie though here the link to his tumblr: https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics

----------


## millernumber1

> Well unfortunately Tynion won't be writing for Tim and Stephanie though here the link to his tumblr: https://jamestynioniv.tumblr.com/pos...tective-comics


Well, I have been skeptical of the whole Young Justice theory myself. I still hope someone is there who can pick up our girl in the next few months.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I have been skeptical of the whole Young Justice theory myself. I still hope someone is there who can pick up our girl in the next few months.


Well wherever Tim and Stephanie went off it wasn't Ivy University for one thing. Also since Rebirth is still in effect it would be criminal for Tim and Stephanie to not follow up on the fact he learned that his old friends exist in some capacity even if he doesn't know them. Tynion did say that there are big plans for Tim and Stephanie obviously given how they are traveling together on a much needed holiday.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well wherever Tim and Stephanie went off it wasn't Ivy University for one thing. Also since Rebirth is still in effect it would be criminal for Tim and Stephanie to not follow up on the fact he learned that his old friends exist in some capacity even if he doesn't know them. Tynion did say that there are big plans for Tim and Stephanie obviously given how they are traveling together on a much needed holiday.


I agree. Tim and Steph should be stars!

Where did Tynion say there were big plans for them?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I agree. Tim and Steph should be stars!
> 
> Where did Tynion say there were big plans for them?


Tynion said there were big plans for Tim and by proxy Stephanie since she is with him on his tumblr that he could not share yet I gave.

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion said there were big plans for Tim and by proxy Stephanie since she is with him on his tumblr that he could not share yet I gave.


Hmm. Hopefully, then. HOPEFULLY.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Hmm. Hopefully, then. HOPEFULLY.


Well Tomasi said there were plans to bring back Super Sons and it did come as a twelve issue maxi-series but it did come back and he's writing it. And at this stage I doubt Didio can interfere not without causing some issues.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Tomasi said there were plans to bring back Super Sons and it did come as a twelve issue maxi-series but it did come back and he's writing it. And at this stage I doubt Didio can interfere not without causing some issues.


I don't think Didio actually has that much impact on those kinds of decisions at this point, unless he's writing it like Sideways. Those decisions are now made by Jamie Rich and his editorial team (Conroy, Wielgosz, Taylor, Holzherr, Javins, etc.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think Didio actually has that much impact on those kinds of decisions at this point, unless he's writing it like Sideways. Those decisions are now made by Jamie Rich and his editorial team (Conroy, Wielgosz, Taylor, Holzherr, Javins, etc.)


So what Didio and Lee are no longer editor in chief or is the Bat office just been given autonomy?

----------


## millernumber1

> So what Didio and Lee are no longer editor in chief or is the Bat office just been given autonomy?


Lee was never EIC. Didio and Lee are co-publishers, and have been at least since the n52. Didio was EIC from around 2005-2010/11ish, I think.  Each family office has a fair amount of autonomy, I think (speculation).

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> I don't think Didio actually has that much impact on those kinds of decisions at this point, unless he's writing it like Sideways. Those decisions are now made by Jamie Rich and his editorial team (Conroy, Wielgosz, Taylor, Holzherr, Javins, etc.)


Thank god for that.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank god for that.


Haha, yes. I think Didio is much better as an idea and publicity guy than a details and editorial guy. Especially if he keeps his mitts off of Steph.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Lee was never EIC. Didio and Lee are co-publishers, and have been at least since the n52. Didio was EIC from around 2005-2010/11ish, I think.  Each family office has a fair amount of autonomy, I think (speculation).


Well that explains why things seem a little more smooth and why Tynion can talk so freely about potential plans for Tim and by proxy Stephanie and why despite writing Sideways Didio's influence is lacking in the current DC regime. But doesn't Didio as the co-publisher still have a say on matters though?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that explains why things seem a little more smooth and why Tynion can talk so freely about potential plans for Tim and by proxy Stephanie and why despite writing Sideways Didio's influence is lacking in the current DC regime. But doesn't Didio as the co-publisher still have a say on matters though?


Yup, Didio has some say in big picture ideas, so he helped push things like Black Label and New Age of Heros and Zoom and Ink. I don't think he does a ton of review on individual issues or even regular series.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yup, Didio has some say in big picture ideas, so he helped push things like Black Label and New Age of Heros and Zoom and Ink. I don't think he does a ton of review on individual issues or even regular series.


Well too bad NEw Age of Heroes is failing but maybe Black Label, Zoom, and Ink can reach others where New Age of Heroes failed to do. And it was supposed to be about making new characters too bad though there are so many good characters in it. But he seems to be taking his time with Zoom and Ink as the release dates has been pushed back to 2019.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well too bad NEw Age of Heroes is failing but maybe Black Label, Zoom, and Ink can reach others where New Age of Heroes failed to do. And it was supposed to be about making new characters too bad though there are so many good characters in it. But he seems to be taking his time with Zoom and Ink as the release dates has been pushed back to 2019.


(I still think the meme that New Age of Heroes is failing is incorrect. It's not killing in sales, but...these are brand new characters with a tiny connection to the last event, and they're selling on artists who are leaving after three issues. I think they're selling very well for that.)

Black Label, Zoom, and Ink are all shooting for the Scholastic/mainstream book market. So it's not really the same thing as New Age of Heroes.

I'd much rather have things pushed back than rushed product. Though given how irritated I am with Doomsday Clock, maybe I should revise that. Don't START releasing until you're able to meet the schedule in following months. Seriously.

Anyhoo. This has been a really fun last couple of months for a Steph fan. Hopefully we get some news soon that she'll be showing up SOMEWHERE.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> (I still think the meme that New Age of Heroes is failing is incorrect. It's not killing in sales, but...these are brand new characters with a tiny connection to the last event, and they're selling on artists who are leaving after three issues. I think they're selling very well for that.)
> 
> Black Label, Zoom, and Ink are all shooting for the Scholastic/mainstream book market. So it's not really the same thing as New Age of Heroes.
> 
> I'd much rather have things pushed back than rushed product. Though given how irritated I am with Doomsday Clock, maybe I should revise that. Don't START releasing until you're able to meet the schedule in following months. Seriously.
> 
> Anyhoo. This has been a really fun last couple of months for a Steph fan. Hopefully we get some news soon that she'll be showing up SOMEWHERE.


Well that applies to Doomsday Clock but not Black Label, Zoom, or Ink since they haven't been released yet anyway. For all of Didio's apparent ineptitude he seems to showing some understanding on where the money is the mainsteam book market. I still think as part of some attempt at corporate synergy Tim and Stephanie will be showing up in a new Young Justice book even if the line up will not match the current one in the show completely. I mean with Bart Allen's return being teased in Flash War it's a huge sign of things to come.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that applies to Doomsday Clock but not Black Label, Zoom, or Ink since they haven't been released yet anyway. For all of Didio's apparent ineptitude he seems to showing some understanding on where the money is the mainsteam book market. I still think as part of some attempt at corporate synergy Tim and Stephanie will be showing up in a new Young Justice book even if the line up will not match the current one in the show completely. I mean with Bart Allen's return being teased in Flash War it's a huge sign of things to come.


Well. I'm also hoping that we get another tie-in comic to the actual show, like they did with the original release of the series. This time, with Steph as the MAIN CHARACTER (joke).  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well. I'm also hoping that we get another tie-in comic to the actual show, like they did with the original release of the series. This time, with Steph as the MAIN CHARACTER (joke).


I honestly don't like the idea of a tie-in comic because I didn't even know one existed until I stumbled across it on the Young Justice Wiki. I feel like it makes the show a little harder to get into. And Season 2 shot itself in the foot by skipping over five years worth of development to introduce new characters right away.

----------


## millernumber1

> I honestly don't like the idea of a tie-in comic because I didn't even know one existed until I stumbled across it on the Young Justice Wiki. I feel like it makes the show a little harder to get into. And Season 2 shot itself in the foot by skipping over five years worth of development to introduce new characters right away.


I thought it was fine. The show was perfect by itself, and the comic just gave fans a bit extra.

I think the real problem with season 2 was the lack of episodes. S3 should be better about that.  :Smile:

----------


## uchihafanboy

> By epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter


This picture is beautiful. I can only see Steph being this adorable <3

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I thought it was fine. The show was perfect by itself, and the comic just gave fans a bit extra.
> 
> I think the real problem with season 2 was the lack of episodes. S3 should be better about that.


Well certain areas yeah like the episode where Aqualad tries to choose between staying on the surface or going back to Atlantis but the plot involving Ocean Master trying to persecute Atlantian minorities should have been a TV episode not in the comic. It doesn't interfere with the show but anyone who doesn't read Aquaman would see the show and won't be able to tell that Orm was really Ocean Master. Heck i'm annoyed Ocean Master got thrown out of the Light with no explanation just to make room for Black Manta to join it. What do you mean lack of episodes?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well certain areas yeah like the episode where Aqualad tries to choose between staying on the surface or going back to Atlantis but the plot involving Ocean Master trying to persecute Atlantian minorities should have been a TV episode not in the comic. It doesn't interfere with the show but anyone who doesn't read Aquaman would see the show and won't be able to tell that Orm was really Ocean Master. Heck i'm annoyed Ocean Master got thrown out of the Light with no explanation just to make room for Black Manta to join it. What do you mean lack of episodes?


There were fewer episodes in the second season than in the first.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> There were fewer episodes in the second season than in the first.


I thought there only thirteen or twenty episodes per season?

----------


## millernumber1

> I thought there only thirteen or twenty episodes per season?


s1 - 26
s2 - 20
s3 - 26

----------


## The Dying Detective

> s1 - 26
> s2 - 20
> s3 - 26


Well that works now but I don't think even twenty six episodes would have helped Season 2 overbloated cast of characters though.

----------


## adrikito

I am a little sad. Step is gone again.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> I am a little sad. Step is gone again.


I think we all are.  :Frown: 

But she will be back! We just don't know where or when! And remember to tweet DC writers to include her in stories!  :Smile:

----------


## Sannom

> This issue is definitely an 9/10 for me


It was nice, but I could have lived without all the creepy Colgate advertisement. Those weren't people smiling, those were horses laughing their asses off!

----------


## millernumber1

> It was nice, but I could have lived without all the creepy Colgate advertisement. Those weren't people smiling, those were horses laughing their asses off!


Maybe I've gotten used to Barrows, but I thought it was okay, at least compared to some of Lonely Place of Living.

----------


## Sannom

I just can't get used to those smiles, they just feel unnatural. Not to mention that I've seen them used most often to "hint" that the people giving them are being insincere.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just can't get used to those smiles, they just feel unnatural. Not to mention that I've seen them used most often to "hint" that the people giving them are being insincere.


Yeah, I think it takes getting used to in Barrows style/limitations. But I do think the layouts and general visual imagination are so superior to the fill in artists, it is just a matter of expecting and adjusting (I did the same thing for Claire Roe on Batgirl and the Birds of Prey).

----------


## millernumber1

So, this was already posted in the Cass thread, but it's a very worthwhile article: https://twitter.com/rustypolished/st...85087320801280

The author wrote on twitter: _I wrote about some girls that I love and how they subvert traditional female rivalry tropes. (Also, not for nothing, Cass and Steph are one of my DC OTPs soooo also that) But really, writing this made me realize just how much of an absolute miracle it was that Steph and Cass DIDN'T end up totally at each other's throats, especially during the early 00s when it seems like that would have been extremely on brand._

My analysis of the article itself:

It feel like the author is a Cass fan first, but also a Steph fan. The agenda is definitely to push the relationship between Steph and Cass as central to their characters, though as an accidental, organic production of the writing for their characters, and not as an ongoing plan. I think that's a reasonable argument to make, especially in Cass's own series, where Steph acts as an avatar for all Cass has lost in the end (where Robin almost never has visions or flashbacks of Steph, even if he mentions her every now and again like in Batman RIP).

It's awesome to see all the little details that Downey throws in - she definitely knows her stuff. She also pushes the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl retcon HARD.  :Smile:  And it's nice to see that Downey would love to see Steph and Cass possibly take on the Batgirl role again, and at least would love to see more of both characters in the future.

However, there's one big thing that really bugs me about the article (and all attempts to centralize the Steph and Cass relationship in each other's development): they never deal with the fact that Cass allowed Batman to dictate the relationship. When Batman was pushing Steph out the most intensely, though Cass did spend a lovely night patrolling with Steph in the "Riot Grrls" Batgirl #38 (highlighted at the beginning of the article), she ultimately turned her back on Steph in that very issue, just like Bruce and Tim did. And though she was the only person searching for Steph during War Games, she never expressed her disapproval of Bruce's treatment of Steph as Robin.

Now, I think Cass is still very sympathetic in this situation. Batman, the Bat, and Bruce are three of the most powerful elements in her life, hard won after 17 years of suffering. Batman as mentor, the Bat as what she bases her whole life around, and Bruce as replacement father for the one who tried to make her into a monster.

But she still turned her back. And never really repaired that relationship. And that's why I think it's was so difficult on Steph's side to really repair that relationship when Steph returned from Africa. They were still fighting side by side, but we never got a reunion. Part of that, of course, is because Cass didn't have a real home (except possibly the Outsiders, and I would bet money that Dixon would have tried to reuinte Cass and Steph if he'd kept on writing both Robin and Outsiders - he even hinted that he was trying to get either a mini, ongoing, or even just some one shots for Spoiler like the Robin/Spoiler special).

But just like Babs never really repaired her relationship with Cass after the vicious "You can't even read" insult (she tried during the end of Cass's run, but it was too little, too late), Cass never really repaired her relationship with Steph after Riot Grrls. When Steph was Robin, she was happy to work with Cass, having proved herself to Batman. But I think the hurt was still there, and no one's really dealt with it, either in fandom analysis or in the comics themselves.

----------


## Godlike13

Steph's relationship with Cass was one sided in the first place. Steph was the butt of the joke.

----------


## millernumber1

> Steph's relationship with Cass was one sided in the first place. Steph was the butt of the joke.


Except for Batgirl #27, I think that's completely untrue. Downey got that absolutely right - both Steph and Cass got valuable support from the other.

----------


## adrikito

> Steph's relationship with Cass was one sided in the first place. Steph was the butt of the joke.


Yeah. I saw that article too.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah. I saw that article too.


I had an interesting Tumblr exchange about my analysis of the article, which I cross posted from this forum post: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/1744...anie-brown-and
_
littlemissonewhoisall (https://littlemissonewhoisall.tumblr...ie-brown-and): I’ve written my analysis of this moment before, but essentially, I disagree with your characterization of Cassandra here. Cassandra definitely is influenced by Bruce, but I dont think that’s the main reason for Cass trying to dissuade Steph from being a hero. 

    Cassandra is very protective of Stephanie. This has been shown several times before this. Much like Bruce, Cassandra is obsessed with controlling death. When Steph almost gets herself killed against her “promise”, it freaks Cass out, because she realizes she can’t control whether Steph is in danger or not. Whereas Bruce is still sort of an invulnerable hero figure to her at this point and Babs isn’t on the front lines, Stephanie, who is definitely the next most important person to Cass, is terrifyingly human and directly in the line of fire. 

    It’s a serious flaw in their friendship, I have to agree, and it needed to be addressed. But it’s not because Bruce is telling her what to do._ 

My response:

I think you’re absolutely right that Cass’s concern for Steph is a large part of her motivation for rejection of Steph as a hero. So we both agree that Cass’s motivations include 1) her attempts to protect/control Steph and her risks, and 2) Bruce’s influence. I’d say our disagreement would be in how much each motivation directs her decision to reject Steph. For me, Bruce’s influence is also evident in Cass’s desire to control Steph, so I see it as more of a factor than her emotional connection to Steph (but not by too much - if I put numbers on it, I’d say it’s probably about 60%). But even her love for Steph is expressed as a sort of benevolent disregard - instead of training Steph (which, to her credit, she has done, in that lovely issue #28, and a bit in #38), she consistently knocks her out in #27 and #38 (and something I’ve had expressed to me several times by Cass fans is that Steph really isn’t good enough to be a solo hero, that she should just stay as Cass or Tim’s sidekick - something that feels an awful lot like Steph should “know her place”).

I also have a real problem in that Batgirl #38 was written by Andersen Gabrych, the writer largely responsible for the “Steph deserved to die/her death wasn’t Batman’s fault because she was just too dumb” narrative. No other writer that I can recall significantly shows Steph failing to the extent that Gabrych does (I think even Willingham gave Steph’s “failure” as Robin more a sense that Bruce was being ridiculous). So to me, Batgirl #38 and War Games, through Gabrych’s general control of the narrative, are largely responsible for the all too common narrative that Steph was a screwup and couldn’t make the grade. (Thus my fairly strong negative response when people were wishing for a Gabrych Steph title: http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/118366176649/noooo, http://ibmiller.tumblr.com/post/118377010904/noooo)

In fairness, I do want to acknowledge that it is a major jerk move by Steph to bring us Batman as Cass’s father. The damage to the friendship is far from one sided.

----------


## millernumber1

Spoiler Wires.jpg

https://twitter.com/SteelScarlet/sta...16914339299329

Really amazing picture of Steph in modern Spoiler garb. The colors and pose - flying through the air, above the wires - is so dramatic!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Spoiler Wires.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/SteelScarlet/sta...16914339299329
> 
> Really amazing picture of Steph in modern Spoiler garb. The colors and pose - flying through the air, above the wires - is so dramatic!


I think DC should not have discarded her New 52 Spoiler costume I always thought this was a great update for her even if it falls into the same weaknesses as her Batgirl costume.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think DC should not have discarded her New 52 Spoiler costume I always thought this was a great update for her even if it falls into the same weaknesses as her Batgirl costume.


I don't think they have discarded it?

What weaknesses do you see in her Batgirl costume?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think they have discarded it?
> 
> What weaknesses do you see in her Batgirl costume?


Well considering how later on Stephanie is shown wearing her Post-Crisis costume she could have discarded or put it away for some reason. Well it's the same weaknesses as Barbara's Batgirl costumes the mask exposes her eyes and hair which would make her identity very vulnerable at least the domino masks cover the eyes. But even those fall into the same weaknesses I said.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well considering how later on Stephanie is shown wearing her Post-Crisis costume she could have discarded or put it away for some reason. Well it's the same weaknesses as Barbara's Batgirl costumes the mask exposes her eyes and hair which would make her identity very vulnerable at least the domino masks cover the eyes. But even those fall into the same weaknesses I said.


The only thing that changed between the n52 and Rebirth for Steph's costume is that she changed her half-mask for a full head stocking with eye lenses. And given what we see in 980-981, I think it's quite possible she's back to he half mask. She never changed back to the pirate boots or full purple body stocking with broad belts, instead of the ribbed purple sides and black body.

Hmm. Well, the whole secret identity thing is pretty much just assumed at this point. Remember Clark Kent's glasses! It's super effective.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The only thing that changed between the n52 and Rebirth for Steph's costume is that she changed her half-mask for a full head stocking with eye lenses. And given what we see in 980-981, I think it's quite possible she's back to he half mask. She never changed back to the pirate boots or full purple body stocking with broad belts, instead of the ribbed purple sides and black body.
> 
> Hmm. Well, the whole secret identity thing is pretty much just assumed at this point. Remember Clark Kent's glasses! It's super effective.


But didn't she change the style of her hood for that was closer to her Post-Crisis one? Admittedly I should have caught on to the fact that Stephanie did look like she was wearing her New 52 suit in the closing issues of Tynion's run. I'm dense. Yes I know but Superman's actor for the first Superman film dressed up like Clark Kent on set and no one even knew it was him!

----------


## millernumber1

> But didn't she change the style of her hood for that was closer to her Post-Crisis one? Admittedly I should have caught on to the fact that Stephanie did look like she was wearing her New 52 suit in the closing issues of Tynion's run. I'm dense. Yes I know but Superman's actor for the first Superman film dressed up like Clark Kent on set and no one even knew it was him!


No, just the head stocking. The hood itself is the same.

Henry Cavill did a similar thing in New York around the release of Batman v. Superman, which I thought was hilarious and cute. The real problem is not if you are able to walk undetected a few times, but if you work closely with people (like Lois and Clark) and they don't realize you have two identities.

That being said, I've never been super interested in secret identity focused plots (see also: I have zero interest in reading Identity Crisis), so I don't mind that Steph as Batgirl is pretty obviously Stephanie Brown, intrepid college student.  :Smile:

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## The Dying Detective

> No, just the head stocking. The hood itself is the same.
> 
> Henry Cavill did a similar thing in New York around the release of Batman v. Superman, which I thought was hilarious and cute. The real problem is not if you are able to walk undetected a few times, but if you work closely with people (like Lois and Clark) and they don't realize you have two identities.
> 
> That being said, I've never been super interested in secret identity focused plots (see also: I have zero interest in reading Identity Crisis), so I don't mind that Steph as Batgirl is pretty obviously Stephanie Brown, intrepid college student.


Huh right then still I hope she ditched the head stocking though. I heard of Henry Cavill's attempt to promote the the film by going around New York dressed in a shirt that was supposed to help but I thought he was promoting Man of Steel. Okay that is the fundamental flaw of the Clark Kent identity and not even what was suggested by Wikipedia that he simply slouches and wear baggier clothes could hide that. But yeah it's a problem not limited to just Superman anyway. Well why don't you like secret identity focused plots because secret identities have been essential for superheroes at least on the DC side Marvel not so much these days with only a few remanents of the old order remaining namely Spider-Man, Daredevil, and weirdly enough Ms. marvel Kamala Khan.

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## millernumber1

> Huh right then still I hope she ditched the head stocking though. I heard of Henry Cavill's attempt to promote the the film by going around New York dressed in a shirt that was supposed to help but I thought he was promoting Man of Steel. Okay that is the fundamental flaw of the Clark Kent identity and not even what was suggested by Wikipedia that he simply slouches and wear baggier clothes could hide that. But yeah it's a problem not limited to just Superman anyway. Well why don't you like secret identity focused plots because secret identities have been essential for superheroes at least on the DC side Marvel not so much these days with only a few remanents of the old order remaining namely Spider-Man, Daredevil, and weirdly enough Ms. marvel Kamala Khan.


I don't mind secret identities. I dislike plots that are all about "HOW DO WE KEEP IT A SECRET" because that focuses on "realism", which is silly in superhero comics (we should look for realism of character, not realism of superpowers or secret identities). Especially since the standard plot of a secret identity story is either 1) OH NO someone KNOWS and now they have KILLED the hero's love interest (Identity Crisis, Kyle Rayner); 2) OH NO someone KNOWS and now the hero must STOP being a hero (Tim Drake, Spider-Man, etc).

It's just not interesting, because it's not focused on being a hero and saving people and making the world a better place. It's narcissistic and self-focused, the opposite of what I think a good superhero story should be.

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## The Dying Detective

> I don't mind secret identities. I dislike plots that are all about "HOW DO WE KEEP IT A SECRET" because that focuses on "realism", which is silly in superhero comics (we should look for realism of character, not realism of superpowers or secret identities). Especially since the standard plot of a secret identity story is either 1) OH NO someone KNOWS and now they have KILLED the hero's love interest (Identity Crisis, Kyle Rayner); 2) OH NO someone KNOWS and now the hero must STOP being a hero (Tim Drake, Spider-Man, etc).
> 
> It's just not interesting, because it's not focused on being a hero and saving people and making the world a better place. It's narcissistic and self-focused, the opposite of what I think a good superhero story should be.


Hmm is that so? But Superman had to do a lot of dodging back when he and Lois were not married and she was torn between people who she thought were two different men and was part of the charm of their old dynamic. Well it's honestly one of the key dangers of having two lives and if the writer does not play with it well there is nothing all that entertaining about a secret identity. And it also sometimes does help provide some nice character building moment at least in the case of Spider-Man but not in Civil War I. And we know how well that went. Because apart from being heroes and set the example, superheroes are supposed to be our entertainment.

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## millernumber1

> Hmm is that so? But Superman had to do a lot of dodging back when he and Lois were not married and she was torn between people who she thought were two different men and was part of the charm of their old dynamic. Well it's honestly one of the key dangers of having two lives and if the writer does not play with it well there is nothing all that entertaining about a secret identity. And it also sometimes does help provide some nice character building moment at least in the case of Spider-Man but not in Civil War I. And we know how well that went. Because apart from being heroes and set the example, superheroes are supposed to be our entertainment.


Well, there's a reason I prefer the Super marriage to the Clark/Superman/Lois triangle.

Oh, I liked it when Spidey told the world his secret identity, though it's poisoned now because of how they "fixed" it with One More Day.

Ah, well. There was a time when Steph's secret identity was revealed - first to her mom, then again when she died and then War Crimes made her identity public on television as part of her dad's plot to humiliate Batman. Thankfully, they retconned that out of continuity after they also brought Steph back.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, there's a reason I prefer the Super marriage to the Clark/Superman/Lois triangle.
> 
> Oh, I liked it when Spidey told the world his secret identity, though it's poisoned now because of how they "fixed" it with One More Day.
> 
> Ah, well. There was a time when Steph's secret identity was revealed - first to her mom, then again when she died and then War Crimes made her identity public on television as part of her dad's plot to humiliate Batman. Thankfully, they retconned that out of continuity after they also brought Steph back.


Still it was what it was back then entertainment nothing else nothing less. Because on paper to be in love with two people who are the same man well it's kind of funny. But continuing it for the next thirty or so years would probably be detrimental. Yeah but some Spider-Man fans well it was out of character especially when he spent years dodging any attempt to be found out. And how did Stephanie's mom take it when she learned about it I hope it was better than how Tim's father took the revelation of Tim being Robin. What did they do to deal with Cluemaster revealing her identity in War Games anyway did they just ignore it?

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## millernumber1

> And how did Stephanie's mom take it when she learned about it I hope it was better than how Tim's father took the revelation of Tim being Robin. What did they do to deal with Cluemaster revealing her identity in War Games anyway did they just ignore it?


Nope, Steph's mom made her quit being Spoiler, too. Not to mention since Steph's dad and uncle were both criminals, Steph's mom didn't want her to get in conflict with them, so she had lots of conflict about it.

They completely ignored the whole "Everyone knows that Steph was Robin" thing when Steph returned from the dead - despite the fact that they kept the whole "Cluemaster is still alive" thing.

I really don't know what canon was about War Crimes...

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Nope, Steph's mom made her quit being Spoiler, too. Not to mention since Steph's dad and uncle were both criminals, Steph's mom didn't want her to get in conflict with them, so she had lots of conflict about it.
> 
> They completely ignored the whole "Everyone knows that Steph was Robin" thing when Steph returned from the dead - despite the fact that they kept the whole "Cluemaster is still alive" thing.
> 
> I really don't know what canon was about War Crimes...


Well that's something Stephanie and tim had in common then very over protective parent though In Tim's case there was hint of jealousy in the idea that Bruce was training him. This is the opposite though how Crystal Brown took Stephanie return to vigilantism in her Batgirl title where as you know she was aware that her daughter's late night activities. Just feigning ignorance for some reason even the news of Stephanie being shot again get her to try and stop her again for some reason. And I'm sure even then Cluemaster was alive but what about her uncle?

Weird that people ignored Stephanie being Robin this whole time though in the same case of how Priest ignored Deathstroke's family being dead in the New 52 I guess it was not worth the trouble to deal with what was done in War Crimes. But what was the aftermath shown War Crimes about any way?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that's something Stephanie and tim had in common then very over protective parent though In Tim's case there was hint of jealousy in the idea that Bruce was training him. This is the opposite though how Crystal Brown took Stephanie return to vigilantism in her Batgirl title where as you know she was aware that her daughter's late night activities. Just feigning ignorance for some reason even the news of Stephanie being shot again get her to try and stop her again for some reason. And I'm sure even then Cluemaster was alive but what about her uncle?
> 
> Weird that people ignored Stephanie being Robin this whole time though in the same case of how Priest ignored Deathstroke's family being dead in the New 52 I guess it was not worth the trouble to deal with what was done in War Crimes. But what was the aftermath shown War Crimes about any way?


Well, Steph had a lot more support and maturity as Batgirl than as Spoiler, so Crystal being proud of her instead of telling her to stop makes sense as development.

Her uncle only showed up in one story - Batman Chronicles #22 (I just got a hard copy of that issue!)

Yeah, comics has always been comics. It's always been that way.

The aftermath of War Crimes was that Leslie was a murderer and exiled from Gotham, and everyone knew Steph was Robin. I don't think anything else changed.

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## The Dying Detective

> Well, Steph had a lot more support and maturity as Batgirl than as Spoiler, so Crystal being proud of her instead of telling her to stop makes sense as development.
> 
> Her uncle only showed up in one story - Batman Chronicles #22 (I just got a hard copy of that issue!)
> 
> Yeah, comics has always been comics. It's always been that way.
> 
> The aftermath of War Crimes was that Leslie was a murderer and exiled from Gotham, and everyone knew Steph was Robin. I don't think anything else changed.


Well at least it saves Crystal Brown the trouble of having to argue with Stephanie yet again and potentially go through what Tim's father did when he tried to stop Tim from being Robin. I guess Stephanie's uncle was a very lackluster character then. I read about that Leslie Thompkins refusing to save Stephanie it shocked me when I read it on Wikipedia as I had watch Batman: the Animated Series by then. But didn't they retcon the outcome of War Crimes into Leslie did save Stephanie's life and just smuggled her out of Gotham?

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## millernumber1

> Well at least it saves Crystal Brown the trouble of having to argue with Stephanie yet again and potentially go through what Tim's father did when he tried to stop Tim from being Robin. I guess Stephanie's uncle was a very lackluster character then. I read about that Leslie Thompkins refusing to save Stephanie it shocked me when I read it on Wikipedia as I had watch Batman: the Animated Series by then. But didn't they retcon the outcome of War Crimes into Leslie did save Stephanie's life and just smuggled her out of Gotham?


Yup, he was just a minor punk. No supercriminal gimmick, or special ability, just a thief and liar. But Steph cleaned his clock right quick!

Yeah, Leslie's character assassination was terrible. And that's part of why I like it every time Tynion used her in Tec - because even though it was a very small element, it felt like the universe being set to rights a little bit more.

Yes, Steph's death was completely retconned, so obviously Leslie didn't let her die. But it was done right around Batman RIP, so they didn't have time to really explore how that all went down.

Which is what fanfic is for!  :Smile:

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## The Dying Detective

> Yup, he was just a minor punk. No supercriminal gimmick, or special ability, just a thief and liar. But Steph cleaned his clock right quick!
> 
> Yeah, Leslie's character assassination was terrible. And that's part of why I like it every time Tynion used her in Tec - because even though it was a very small element, it felt like the universe being set to rights a little bit more.
> 
> Yes, Steph's death was completely retconned, so obviously Leslie didn't let her die. But it was done right around Batman RIP, so they didn't have time to really explore how that all went down.
> 
> Which is what fanfic is for!


And I can't even see why Crystal Brown was even afraid of him with her ex-husband she had a reason because he had a gimmick at least but him not likely. But even before Tynion began using Leslie Thomkins in Detective Comic wouldn't the retcon had already begun saving her character? Well that's what comics are fanfiction just professionally written fanfiction. So it was around the time Batman died that's why they never could address why did everyone forget Stephanie's identity was outed to all of Gotham? That's kind of sad because it might be taking it a little too far even for comics but with Deathstroke I mean no one really stays dead in comics these days except for the average civilian who's going to be sacrificed so I don't think anyone really cares these days to find dead characters alive again for no reason.

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## millernumber1

> And I can't even see why Crystal Brown was even afraid of him with her ex-husband she had a reason because he had a gimmick at least but him not likely. But even before Tynion began using Leslie Thomkins in Detective Comic wouldn't the retcon had already begun saving her character? Well that's what comics are fanfiction just professionally written fanfiction. So it was around the time Batman died that's why they never could address why did everyone forget Stephanie's identity was outed to all of Gotham? That's kind of sad because it might be taking it a little too far even for comics but with Deathstroke I mean no one really stays dead in comics these days except for the average civilian who's going to be sacrificed so I don't think anyone really cares these days to find dead characters alive again for no reason.


Crystal wasn't afraid of her brother - she refused to see that he was a bad guy because he was her little brother. So Steph had to put him in jail.

Yes, the retcon did allow Leslie to come back to Gotham, but because Bruce died, it was difficult to really fix the problems that War Crimes caused.

The real reason they never addressed the logistics of the retcon was the Dixon was fired and the FabNic decided to use Steph as a pawn in his "Make Tim Drake a mini Batman" plotline.

Yeah, I hate the way there's two levels of death in comics, but it is the way it is.

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## The Dying Detective

> Crystal wasn't afraid of her brother - she refused to see that he was a bad guy because he was her little brother. So Steph had to put him in jail.
> 
> Yes, the retcon did allow Leslie to come back to Gotham, but because Bruce died, it was difficult to really fix the problems that War Crimes caused.
> 
> The real reason they never addressed the logistics of the retcon was the Dixon was fired and the FabNic decided to use Steph as a pawn in his "Make Tim Drake a mini Batman" plotline.
> 
> Yeah, I hate the way there's two levels of death in comics, but it is the way it is.


Oh admittedly I thought that Stephanie's uncle was her father's brother. You're referring to that story in Red Robin where he had Miss Martian pretend to be him to throw off Vicki Vale right? And a shame Dixon was fired but he still came back if only for to write the Bane story. Maybe it's time they stopped killing off important characters because it is getting ridiculous.

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## millernumber1

> Oh admittedly I thought that Stephanie's uncle was her father's brother. You're referring to that story in Red Robin where he had Miss Martian pretend to be him to throw off Vicki Vale right? And a shame Dixon was fired but he still came back if only for to write the Bane story. Maybe it's time they stopped killing off important characters because it is getting ridiculous.


Leslie actually came back to Gotham in Gotham Gazette, during Battle for the Cowl, written by FabNic (of course...) She hired the Cavalier as a guard for her new free clinic. But that setup the story (also written by FabNic) in Red Robin where he fakes his own shooting.

I completely agree that they should stop killing off characters.

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## The Dying Detective

> Leslie actually came back to Gotham in Gotham Gazette, during Battle for the Cowl, written by FabNic (of course...) She hired the Cavalier as a guard for her new free clinic. But that setup the story (also written by FabNic) in Red Robin where he fakes his own shooting.
> 
> I completely agree that they should stop killing off characters.


Huh so that's how Leslie came back but how exactly did Nicieza use Stephanie as part of a plot to make Tim into a mini-Batman. i swear it's like there's a competition to turn both Tim into a mini-Batman when really Damian who is technically a mini-Batman already owns that shtick. Writers need to give Tim a new one. You should see the outrage over at the X-forums I know you don't really like the X-Men but they are suffering a lot because the newer more obscure character who were not created by Byrne/Lee (Not Stan)/Claremont keep being used as canon fodder. Besides if characters can be brought whether by faking a death, magic, or technology then it just makes death well pointless.

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## millernumber1

> Huh so that's how Leslie came back but how exactly did Nicieza use Stephanie as part of a plot to make Tim into a mini-Batman. i swear it's like there's a competition to turn both Tim into a mini-Batman when really Damian who is technically a mini-Batman already owns that shtick. Writers need to give Tim a new one. You should see the outrage over at the X-forums I know you don't really like the X-Men but they are suffering a lot because the newer more obscure character who were not created by Byrne/Lee (Not Stan)/Claremont keep being used as canon fodder. Besides if characters can be brought whether by faking a death, magic, or technology then it just makes death well pointless.


FabNic had Steph hire literal supervillains (including the one who GOT HER FIRED AS ROBIN, Scarab) to cause problems for Tim to solve, because Batman told her to make Tim a better Robin. Like...ugh. I really hate that arc. Plus it makes literally no sense if you try to read it all together.

I know I seem alone, at least on these forums, because I like the way Tynion has written Tim in general (with a few exceptions like Batman and Robin Eternal #1).

I don't think I actually dislike the X-Men, but I generally distrust team books (with Tec as a significant exception). I love several of the X-Men individually, though, like Emma Frost (I really enjoyed the recent X-Men Blue arc, especially with awesome Red Robin artist Marcus To drawing everyone!)

Death being pointless is a serious problem in comics. However, I have a difficult time complaining when Steph and Clayface and many others I love are brought back because of comics.

Mostly, I hope for good stories, and bad stories to be ignored or retconned.  :Smile:

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## The Dying Detective

> FabNic had Steph hire literal supervillains (including the one who GOT HER FIRED AS ROBIN, Scarab) to cause problems for Tim to solve, because Batman told her to make Tim a better Robin. Like...ugh. I really hate that arc. Plus it makes literally no sense if you try to read it all together.
> 
> I know I seem alone, at least on these forums, because I like the way Tynion has written Tim in general (with a few exceptions like Batman and Robin Eternal #1).
> 
> I don't think I actually dislike the X-Men, but I generally distrust team books (with Tec as a significant exception). I love several of the X-Men individually, though, like Emma Frost (I really enjoyed the recent X-Men Blue arc, especially with awesome Red Robin artist Marcus To drawing everyone!)
> 
> Death being pointless is a serious problem in comics. However, I have a difficult time complaining when Steph and Clayface and many others I love are brought back because of comics.
> 
> Mostly, I hope for good stories, and bad stories to be ignored or retconned.


There were other ways for Nicieza to have used Stephanie to better Tim like being a good and supporting friend and girlfriend. And maybe even call in a few favour from their other compatriots from the Teen Titans and Young Justice to help Tim out. You can tell at times that Nicieza is a huge Tim Drake fan and like Tynion he has his own idealised view of Tim. But it generally depends on which one stayed true to Tim's core as a character. And for most people here I guess that Tynion didn't stay true to Tim's core by using the hacker fu thing. But I do agree with you that in contrast to Nicieza's prep god thing it actually makes better sense and is in some ways a little preferable but of those who are in the majority opinion and those people like it or not are the ones DC should be catering to they should dial it back a little. 

Yeah I can tell that Detective Comics is to your liking especially when you like pretty much every current Batfamily character. Why do you not like team books in general anyway? In away it is a two edged sword type thing. Permanent death in comics means you will never see any of your favourites eve again. But on the other hand making sure no one stays dead means that you can see them again anyway. Though some character like Barry Allen and Jean Grey have been dead longer than most characters. I think everyone just wants a good story in general because maybe that's what comic companies lack these days a desire to priorities good stories.

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## millernumber1

> There were other ways for Nicieza to have used Stephanie to better Tim like being a good and supporting friend and girlfriend. And maybe even call in a few favour from their other compatriots from the Teen Titans and Young Justice to help Tim out. You can tell at times that Nicieza is a huge Tim Drake fan and like Tynion he has his own idealised view of Tim. But it generally depends on which one stayed true to Tim's core as a character. And for most people here I guess that Tynion didn't stay true to Tim's core by using the hacker fu thing. But I do agree with you that in contrast to Nicieza's prep god thing it actually makes better sense and is in some ways a little preferable but of those who are in the majority opinion and those people like it or not are the ones DC should be catering to they should dial it back a little. 
> 
> Yeah I can tell that Detective Comics is to your liking especially when you like pretty much every current Batfamily character. Why do you not like team books in general anyway? In away it is a two edged sword type thing. Permanent death in comics means you will never see any of your favourites eve again. But on the other hand making sure no one stays dead means that you can see them again anyway. Though some character like Barry Allen and Jean Grey have been dead longer than most characters. I think everyone just wants a good story in general because maybe that's what comic companies lack these days a desire to priorities good stories.


Well, I personally would have liked FabNic to use Steph in such a way that she had her own goals. Both 1) being a supportive girlfriend and 2) following Batman's weird orders to "test" Tim to make him a "better Robin" are both All About Tim. I am a huge TimSteph shipper, obviously, but I think Steph deserved and needed to connect with other characters, like Cass especially, and that could have been much more interesting than the really confusing and nonsensical plot that FabNic ended up doing.

I really think that Tynion didn't rely on hacker fu as much as people say. I think a lot of it comes from the negative impression that Batman and Robin Eternal #1 left on people, where he hacked that one guy's gun. But in Tec, he rarely did that kind of thing as his main contribution to the story.

Haha, I think a large part of why I loved Tec so much is that no joke, I love all of those characters. Batman, of course, Batwoman from Elegy and her n52 run, Tim from his time as Robin, Steph from her whole self, Cass from her time as Batgirl, Jean-Paul because of his conflicted time as Batman and his bombastic nature, Luke because of his connection to the Fox family. I didn't know about Clayface, but I was won over by Tynion's relationship between Cass and Basil. So it was a rare case of loving every character, and thus whenever they got screentime, I was happy. I think, too often, that my problem with team books is that I care about one or two characters, but I get irritated when others get screentime (that's certainly my problem with most Justice League and Avengers books). Good writers, like Priest or Whedon, can make me care about everyone (Priest's Justice League and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men were landmark runs for me), but on the whole, I think too many books expect me to care about everyone first. Possibly even Tec, because I DID care about everyone first.

I just hope that Tim and Steph (Steph especially) land in a team book that isn't too crowded with people I don't care about.  :Smile:

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## The Dying Detective

> Well, I personally would have liked FabNic to use Steph in such a way that she had her own goals. Both 1) being a supportive girlfriend and 2) following Batman's weird orders to "test" Tim to make him a "better Robin" are both All About Tim. I am a huge TimSteph shipper, obviously, but I think Steph deserved and needed to connect with other characters, like Cass especially, and that could have been much more interesting than the really confusing and nonsensical plot that FabNic ended up doing.
> 
> I really think that Tynion didn't rely on hacker fu as much as people say. I think a lot of it comes from the negative impression that Batman and Robin Eternal #1 left on people, where he hacked that one guy's gun. But in Tec, he rarely did that kind of thing as his main contribution to the story.
> 
> Haha, I think a large part of why I loved Tec so much is that no joke, I love all of those characters. Batman, of course, Batwoman from Elegy and her n52 run, Tim from his time as Robin, Steph from her whole self, Cass from her time as Batgirl, Jean-Paul because of his conflicted time as Batman and his bombastic nature, Luke because of his connection to the Fox family. I didn't know about Clayface, but I was won over by Tynion's relationship between Cass and Basil. So it was a rare case of loving every character, and thus whenever they got screentime, I was happy. I think, too often, that my problem with team books is that I care about one or two characters, but I get irritated when others get screentime (that's certainly my problem with most Justice League and Avengers books). Good writers, like Priest or Whedon, can make me care about everyone (Priest's Justice League and Whedon's Astonishing X-Men were landmark runs for me), but on the whole, I think too many books expect me to care about everyone first. Possibly even Tec, because I DID care about everyone first.
> 
> I just hope that Tim and Steph (Steph especially) land in a team book that isn't too crowded with people I don't care about.


I get what you mean but when the story is about Tim Stephanie's role should be to play the supporting role for the time being until someone can dream up a story to develop her and her relationships even further. Even when Tomasi used Lois she got to shine just not at the expense of Superman who is supposed to be the star. Lois is a strong enough character to hold her own solo book but when the story is about Superman it should stay about Superman.

Is that so? then I really have to read the older issues of Tynion's run on Detective Comics. Though I think the sore point was how Tynion had Tim hack the Colony drones to target him before his apparent death. Well for me it's not always because I like all the characters I see in the case of Detective Comics team I just put up with the presence of some of the characters I did not like. I think Luke was one the characters that got the least amount of page time and development outside of his friendship Jean Paul. And just focus my attention mainly on those I did care about actually. Avengers I tend to not care about anyone the Justice League on the other hand spoke to me more.

Well that depends if Tim and Stephanie land a Young Justice book. It would have to depend on whether you cared about the original Young Justice characters.

----------


## juffuj5

I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.

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## The Dying Detective

> I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.


Well that was the very reason was created in the first place to be a supporting character for Tim she's just carrying out her function. And I see that you are new here so welcome!

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## Mataza

Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.

This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.

Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.

As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.

Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.

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## The Dying Detective

> Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.
> 
> This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.
> 
> Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.
> 
> As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.
> 
> Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.


Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?

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## millernumber1

> Is that so? then I really have to read the older issues of Tynion's run on Detective Comics. Though I think the sore point was how Tynion had Tim hack the Colony drones to target him before his apparent death. Well for me it's not always because I like all the characters I see in the case of Detective Comics team I just put up with the presence of some of the characters I did not like. I think Luke was one the characters that got the least amount of page time and development outside of his friendship Jean Paul. And just focus my attention mainly on those I did care about actually. Avengers I tend to not care about anyone the Justice League on the other hand spoke to me more.
> 
> Well that depends if Tim and Stephanie land a Young Justice book. It would have to depend on whether you cared about the original Young Justice characters.


The argument about Steph in Tec is that it's not a Tim book, though. It's supposed to be a team book, and she should have her own plotline. I think she more or less did, but it was definitely very connected/driven by a lot of Steph's connections to Tim. I appreciate that, since I think it's an attempt to honor her first 100 issues in Robin as a supporting character for Tim, but it feels like Tynion didn't really value Steph as a potential solo character in the same way he valued Cass, Tim, Kate, and even Azrael.

Tim hacking the drones was a good use of hacking, because it was one thing that helped, but it didn't magically solve the problem - Tim still had to hold the drones off with his own skill (and ultimately failed because there were too many of them).

I don't really care about Teen Titans of Young Justice, which is kind of why I'm not super excited about that idea.




> I wish Steph wasn't so intertwined with Tim Drake, she's a much better when she's not a supporting character of Tim.


Another welcome!

As for Steph being intertwined with Tim...I agree that she's more than worthy of a solo run, but I really disagree with any argument that she isn't a supporting character for Tim, or that she's bad as a supporting character for Tim. That's how she was created, and for 15 years, she shone in that role. I think the problem is now, we have about three years of her (as Batgirl, as Robin, and in various one-shots or miniseries) proving herself as a solo character, and I think that makes her going back to being Tim's supporting character (as she did with both FabNic and Tynion) a bit frustrating, because it feels like a bit of a regression.

But I think her time as a supporting character for Tim should be honored, not swept under the rug.




> Tims growth always came from hardship. Bruce knew this.
> 
> This wasnt a kid that got better with training or just experience, but with pressure. So pressuring him to be better made sense. A lot of people respond to this, others just break in the face of it. Pre flashpoint Tim managed to perform formidable feats because there was no other way to save the day.
> 
> Nicieza understands the characters he writes, on a deeper level than most writers. He gets inside their heads and what makes them tick, why they do what they do and how they do it.
> 
> As to Bruce making Tim into batman, its no secret that Tim was the one meant to carry the mantle, the one trained to do so, on Bruces admision. People think this was some sort of new development when Damian came, but jesus, just read the comic.
> 
> Also people in this board, and in this board only, think Tim should give up everything that defines him because someone else, that came after, is using it.


FabNic definitely has solid knowledge of his characters, though I disagree with the directions he chooses to go with those characters. The problem is that no-ones plans in Robin #176-183 really make any sense. They're all about one-issue reveals, but when you try to piece together the whole arc and the motivations and end goals for each character, it just falls apart completely.

For 100 issues, Tim was not meant to take the mantle. Dixon generally saw Dick as the heir. When Dixon left, Johns and Loeb pushed Tim in the direction of Batman through Titans of Tomorrow and Hush, but that was a definite change in trajectory. Damian changed that trajectory again. Yost tried to get Tim back to his Teen Titans status quo - relying on people, away from his darkness, but FabNic took the Johns path again, pushing him towards a Batman who would cross lines that Bruce never would. It sometimes was interesting, but too often, it was just frustrating.

I have no idea why you think Steph fans was Tim to stop being Robin (even if I do think Steph is the best Robin ever.  :Wink:  ). Tim is my favorite of the male Robins, and I think Tynion did a really solid job of bringing him back to that role instead of the weird n52 Teen Titans Tim that Lobdell created.

Lastly, even if you grant that Bruce was right to test Tim against villains he deliberately used (and I think that's a huge IF - one of Jon Lewis's better stories out of his really bizarre run was the birthday that Bruce faked a message from the future, and I think it showed that Bruce's plans tend to backfire when he tries that kind of stuff), having Steph hiring Scarab in particular was really, really offensive to Steph fans, since Scarab was the villain who got Steph fired as Robin and led to her "death" in War Games.

----------


## juffuj5

Thanks! Also, she was actually initially created to be a one-off character for her debut storyline in Detective Comics all those years ago. I dislike how she's pretty much right now revoling around Tim and basically never interacted with anyone else in Tec. She's proven to be much more than that and I wish that one day that her being his girlfriend won't be the thing that writers associate with the most.

----------


## millernumber1

> Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?


Peeps can post about Tim if we're talking about Tim. I just always try to bring it back to Steph.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thanks! Also, she was actually initially created to be a one-off character for her debut storyline in Detective Comics all those years ago. I dislike how she's pretty much right now revoling around Tim and basically never interacted with anyone else in Tec. She's proven to be much more than that and I wish that one day that her being his girlfriend won't be the thing that writers associate with the most.


Yes! In Detective Comics 647-649 - I bought ten issues off Ebay to collect those three! But I think if you read the way the story structures Steph's introduction to Batman and Robin, she's clearly making a personal connection to Tim, and all of the reader letters a few issues later were focused on how Dixon should write Tim and Steph into a romantic relationship. And given that the story could easily have been an arc of Robin, and that's the same way Dixon approached writing Tim's first 100 issues, I think it's clear that Steph is a Tim supporting character in her introductory arc of Tec.

However, I agree with you that Steph is much more than that now, and it's frustrating that Tynion didn't do a whole lot more with her until the last two issues of the run. She did interact with Anarky, though.  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The argument about Steph in Tec is that it's not a Tim book, though. It's supposed to be a team book, and she should have her own plotline. I think she more or less did, but it was definitely very connected/driven by a lot of Steph's connections to Tim. I appreciate that, since I think it's an attempt to honor her first 100 issues in Robin as a supporting character for Tim, but it feels like Tynion didn't really value Steph as a potential solo character in the same way he valued Cass, Tim, Kate, and even Azrael.
> 
> Tim hacking the drones was a good use of hacking, because it was one thing that helped, but it didn't magically solve the problem - Tim still had to hold the drones off with his own skill (and ultimately failed because there were too many of them).
> 
> I don't really care about Teen Titans of Young Justice, which is kind of why I'm not super excited about that idea.


If Tynion wanted that Red Robin solo he really should have been given it. I get your point but like I said it depends on the story just as the Justice League cartoon switched the focus every now and then and Detective Comics was supposed to do that. And I think Tynion's failure to give Stephanie more focus stemmed more from behind the scenes issues that he had to deal with if he had been allowed to resolve Stephanie's anger over losing Tim a lot sooner in theory it would have freed her up for more stories that are more centred on Stephanie as a character. and there was also the fact his run got cut short and he had to wrap things up as soon as possible. And good point I guess it's just how fans are irrational because the anger over how Tim was used by Tynion in Batman and Robin Eternal was still fresh in people's minds. Well you might have to get used to it as Tim should be an important part of Geoff Johns' plans to fix the DC Universe and that means probably having Tim bring back the Young Justice crowd and with Bart Allen being heavily teased I think it likely. 




> Peeps can post about Tim if we're talking about Tim. I just always try to bring it back to Steph.


If you says so and I can respect that.

----------


## juffuj5

> Yes! In Detective Comics 647-649 - I bought ten issues off Ebay to collect those three! But I think if you read the way the story structures Steph's introduction to Batman and Robin, she's clearly making a personal connection to Tim, and all of the reader letters a few issues later were focused on how Dixon should write Tim and Steph into a romantic relationship. And given that the story could easily have been an arc of Robin, and that's the same way Dixon approached writing Tim's first 100 issues, I think it's clear that Steph is a Tim supporting character in her introductory arc of Tec.
> 
> However, I agree with you that Steph is much more than that now, and it's frustrating that Tynion didn't do a whole lot more with her until the last two issues of the run. She did interact with Anarky, though.


The whole thing with Anarky was a huge disaster. But I'm really sick of her being purely associated with Tim only, but I guess if the whole thing of him and Steph forming a connection in her debut story is true then yeah, the seeds were planted early on. I want her in more solo stories!

----------


## juffuj5

Also, here's a neat article about the relationship between Steph and Cass https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...cassandra-cain

----------


## Mataza

> Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?


Sure, just read the rest of the page. 





> FabNic definitely has solid knowledge of his characters, though I disagree with the directions he chooses to go with those characters. The problem is that no-ones plans in Robin #176-183 really make any sense. They're all about one-issue reveals, but when you try to piece together the whole arc and the motivations and end goals for each character, it just falls apart completely.


Actually the actions of the actors in this plot do make sense. Steph is a) becomings Tims Robin, he calls her to be the voice of reason, to keep him grounded in these difficult times. b) Doing what bruce told her to do, to make Tim better, by challenging him, she just picked a bad time to do it. In a way Bruce was just asking Steph to take care of Tim, because he knew he wasnt going to be around to do it any longer.




> For 100 issues, Tim was not meant to take the mantle.


Disagree, during NML Dixon was the one writing Bruce telling Tim he was probably going to be the one to take over. You see, the thing about Tim is that he thinks hell get to have a normal life eventually, but the two times he tried to have a normal life he couldnt, the first one simply because he realized he was just scared of what would happen if being a hero became his whole life (which he got over by the end of the arc) and the second one he just could not let people be in harms way, he is a hero because he is the guy that does the right thing when no one else will.




> Yost tried to get Tim back to his Teen Titans status quo - relying on people, away from his darkness


Considering Yost was the one writing Tim at his lowest and darkest point and coming out at the end of the dark tunnel with the answer that while he could do the job that batman did, he didnt need or want to be Bruce to do it. We did get a confirmation that he could, in fact, do Batmans job.




> but FabNic took the Johns path again, pushing him towards a Batman who would cross lines that Bruce never would. It sometimes was interesting, but too often, it was just frustrating.


Even Bruce thought of killing chill more than once, and acted on it by visiting him. Cant blame Tim or anyone whose parents got killed for doing the same. The important thing to take away from that development wasnt that he tried, but that he stopped himself from doing it. That he came out of that struggle a better man.




> I have no idea why you think Steph fans was Tim to stop being Robin (even if I do think Steph is the best Robin ever.  ).


I meant something that i think DD said in this page, and that ive read it over and over again in these forums. It mostly comes down to people wanting to cram the character into a role that doesnt feel threatening to a character they are attached to.




> I think Tynion did a really solid job of bringing him back to that role instead of the weird n52 Teen Titans Tim that Lobdell created.


Tynions Tim is Lodbells tim, just more likeable. There is very little from the pre flashpoint character in there, other than references and the reinstated origin.
Its about as off as Tynions Steph.




> Lastly, even if you grant that Bruce was right to test Tim against villains he deliberately used (and I think that's a huge IF - one of Jon Lewis's better stories out of his really bizarre run was the birthday that Bruce faked a message from the future, and I think it showed that Bruce's plans tend to backfire when he tries that kind of stuff), having Steph hiring Scarab in particular was really, really offensive to Steph fans, since Scarab was the villain who got Steph fired as Robin and led to her "death" in War Games.


Hah, actually i thought it was kinda cool. Showed she didnt have a hang ups and that she could appreciate a pros work. Steph has always been practical.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well that was the very reason was created in the first place to be a supporting character for Tim she's just carrying out her function. And I see that you are new here so welcome!


Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless if she’s Batgirl or not.

----------


## Mataza

> Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless is she’s Batgirl or not.


I agree, they should pair her up with a mega famous character, to make her stand out more, maybe have her get between bruce and selina, that would get her loads of attention! Also they should probably change her hair to red or black, blondes arent doing so well lately according to the statistics. We should probably give her an accent too, to maker her distinct.

Then we should probably objectify her, worked for Nightwing! and maybe give her a dark past, that would work too! Everything for her character to sell more! 

On a more serious note, Tim is in pretty great shape outside of this echo chamber (hands down one of the most talked about characters of the Rebirth era). And i dont believe their relationship ever hurt sales, in fact there is a great synergy between them when it comes to that. They are a classic pairing.
Even if i dislike the dynamic Tynion gave them.

----------


## Godlike13

Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.

And maybe they should involve her with Catwoman. It was something they were hinting at before. It wouldn’t be a bad place for her.

----------


## millernumber1

> The whole thing with Anarky was a huge disaster. But I'm really sick of her being purely associated with Tim only, but I guess if the whole thing of him and Steph forming a connection in her debut story is true then yeah, the seeds were planted early on. I want her in more solo stories!


I thought it was a good idea to have Steph deal with Anarky, but it was not executed well, I agree.

More solo Steph stories would be great!




> Also, here's a neat article about the relationship between Steph and Cass https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...cassandra-cain


Indeed! I posted about it here: http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post3694627

and here: http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post3697644

I would be interested to know your thoughts on the article and discussion!




> Actually the actions of the actors in this plot do make sense. Steph is a) becomings Tims Robin, he calls her to be the voice of reason, to keep him grounded in these difficult times. b) Doing what bruce told her to do, to make Tim better, by challenging him, she just picked a bad time to do it. In a way Bruce was just asking Steph to take care of Tim, because he knew he wasnt going to be around to do it any longer.
> 
> Disagree, during NML Dixon was the one writing Bruce telling Tim he was probably going to be the one to take over. You see, the thing about Tim is that he thinks hell get to have a normal life eventually, but the two times he tried to have a normal life he couldnt, the first one simply because he realized he was just scared of what would happen if being a hero became his whole life (which he got over by the end of the arc) and the second one he just could not let people be in harms way, he is a hero because he is the guy that does the right thing when no one else will.
> 
> Considering Yost was the one writing Tim at his lowest and darkest point and coming out at the end of the dark tunnel with the answer that while he could do the job that batman did, he didnt need or want to be Bruce to do it. We did get a confirmation that he could, in fact, do Batmans job.
> 
> Even Bruce thought of killing chill more than once, and acted on it by visiting him. Cant blame Tim or anyone whose parents got killed for doing the same. The important thing to take away from that development wasnt that he tried, but that he stopped himself from doing it. That he came out of that struggle a better man.
> 
> Tynions Tim is Lodbells tim, just more likeable. There is very little from the pre flashpoint character in there, other than references and the reinstated origin.
> ...


Steph has already been Tim's Robin. After becoming Robin, dying, and being solo in Africa for a year, I don't think she needed to become that again. Especially not in the incompetent way FabNic portrayed her as - getting shot and then using her sex appeal to disable the General.

Hmm. What issue did Bruce tell Tim that he would become the back during NML? I just reread the whole thing in the new collections, and I don't remember that. But it's a huge story with a lot of stuff to remember. But that's still closer to the end of Dixon's 100 issues.

As a big fan of Yost's Red Robin run, I agree that Tim could do the job. I just disagree he had to become dark and morally ambiguous to do it. But FabNic disagreed, and pushed him right back in the morally ambigous hole.

I'm talking more about Titans of Tomorrow Tim when I talk about crossing the line. And I am not convinced that FabNic was trying to say that Tim came out of his deathtrap for Boomerang a better man, since Bruce disapproves of his choices at the end of the issue.

Tynion's Tim does have a lot of Lobdell's Tim in him - Batman #0 and Batman and Robin Eternal #1 are the biggest examples. But Batman Eternal Tim and most of Tec Tim is much sweeter, less cocky (though cockiness has always been part of Tim's character - and any Robin's, really), and much more loyal and connected to Batman and his goals. I suppose you could say that is "more likeable," but I think it's deeper than that. Lobdell seems to have know knowledge or love for Tim pre-Flashpoint, while Tynion clearly does, even if fans disagree with the choices he's made to develop the character.

Tynion's Steph is pretty complicated. She's definitely very different from BQM's Batgirl Steph, but I think she's a pretty solid fit for Dixon's Steph in many ways.

Appreciate a professional assassin's work? I don't think that seems in character or admirable for Steph at all. She's practical, but she's also had a proper horror and hatred of those who kill for fun or profit (as we see in Robin #35 and Detective Comics #796).




> Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless if she’s Batgirl or not.


While I disagree that Tim's a sinking ship, I do think that it would be nice to see Steph functioning as a more self-reliant and motivated hero, after all the development she got pre-Flashpoint. But I also think there's merit in the goal of honoring her history pre-Batgirl, as a supporting character for Tim. And it's tricky, since unless DC is actually willing to give her even a solo miniseries or a one-shot separate from a series (so Tec 957 wouldn't count, since it's just another issue that happens to be her solo issue), having Steph establish herself as a solo hero in a team book is a bit contradictory. (Batwoman doesn't really count, since she already had a solo series under that title, while Steph's solo runs have always been under a different name than Spoiler).




> I agree, they should pair her up with a mega famous character, to make her stand out more, maybe have her get between bruce and selina, that would get her loads of attention! Also they should probably change her hair to red or black, blondes arent doing so well lately according to the statistics. We should probably give her an accent too, to maker her distinct.
> 
> Then we should probably objectify her, worked for Nightwing! and maybe give her a dark past, that would work too! Everything for her character to sell more! 
> 
> On a more serious note, Tim is in pretty great shape outside of this echo chamber (hands down one of the most talked about characters of the Rebirth era). And i dont believe their relationship ever hurt sales, in fact there is a great synergy between them when it comes to that. They are a classic pairing.
> Even if i dislike the dynamic Tynion gave them.


Well. Valentine did pair Steph with Catwoman (though not the famous one) in her run, and that didn't seem to do much. I still think the best chance for Steph to develop is to become part of Babs's book, like she did at the end of the n52.

I'm curious where you see the positive buzz for Tim in Rebirth? I'd love to get in on those discussions, since I'm definitely tired of repeating myself about all the good things I see in Tynion's Tim.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.


They're both going to be in the _Young Justice Outsiders_ cartoon, which as far as media prospects seems pretty good, and it seems possible they might both be in the eventual _Young Justice_ relaunch.

----------


## Godlike13

What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore. Especially Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in. 

And i think the YJ show, and the little presence he has had in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects. It'll be interesting to see how the show involves Steph.

----------


## Frontier

> What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore, and quite frankly Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in.


I don't think they would have done that Titans of Tomorrow arc if they weren't teasing to something happening, and Williamson seems to be building up to Bart coming back. 

Tynion has an unannounced book and has mentioned that he will be continuing to write at least one of the Knights, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's in a _Young Justice_ book. 



> And i think the YJ show, and the little presence has in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects.


We have no idea how much of a role Tim or Steph will have in _Young Justice Outsiders_, but the fact that they are part of the Team means they will probably at least get some considerable focus.

----------


## Assam

> Tynion has an unannounced book and has mentioned that he will be continuing to write at least one of the Knights, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's in a _Young Justice_ book.


Tynion has already said he isn't writing Tim anymore, so while there may be a YJ book, it won't be written by him. I also looked at his tweet again and his exact words were that he was helping to develop a book with two knights, not that he was writing one, which makes sense. Lastly, he said this this book would have two knights, not one.

----------


## millernumber1

> What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore. Especially Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in. 
> 
> And i think the YJ show, and the little presence he has had in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects. It'll be interesting to see how the show involves Steph.


I do think that having Young Justice and Teen Titans at the same time seems a bit redundant.  And the fact that Steph has only ever been on the Gotham Knights team in her 25 years of existence, appearing only once or twice in any Teen Titans book (once as Robin, once just after she returned to give Tim moral support as he quit the team in the wake of RIP) also supports the idea that even if YJ happens, she's nowhere near a lock on being involved in it.

I do think that Steph's role in Tec has led to fewer active fans. I don't think she lost fans - I've yet to talk to anyone who actually said "I now hate Steph". They've said "I don't like current Steph", but they don't say they've lost their enjoyment of her earlier stuff. But driving people off of the title definitely hurts the ongoing, active fanbase - the people who will tweet or talk to writers about how much they like what's happening.

That being said, I think that Tec's haters are way overrepresented here and a couple other places. I got to other sites where Tec has been a favorite titles of many fans and writers.




> We have no idea how much of a role Tim or Steph will have in _Young Justice Outsiders_, but the fact that they are part of the Team means they will probably at least get some considerable focus.


Well...Tim and Cassie didn't have a ton of focus in the second season. I do chalk a significant chunk of that up to the shorter season, so there's hope on that front...but we also have like double or triple the cast of the second season, so even with more episodes, this is going to be tight. Which is why I'm hoping for just one episode starring or co-starring Steph.  :Smile: 

Also, since we know from Tynion's post that Johns was behind setting up the Titans of Tomorrow as the source for his duplicate Tim (as opposed to the Batman Beyond Tim, which I am still 100% certain was the original plan), there's a really good chance that Titans of Tomorrow will show up as part of Doomsday Clock.




> Tynion has already said he isn't writing Tim anymore, so while there may be a YJ book, it won't be written by him. I also looked at his tweet again and his exact words were that he was helping to develop a book with two knights, not that he was writing one, which makes sense. Lastly, he said this this book would have two knights, not one.


Nice analysis! Much as a lack of Tim indicates a lack of Steph (and honestly, it could be that the project is Outsiders, and Cass will be joined by another Knight) and thus is sad news, the more we know, the better prepped we are!

----------


## Mataza

> Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.


He is one of DCs most popular characters among its readerbase. Top 20 easily, probably lower. The only reason we havent gotten a solo yet was because Rebirth has been keeping a lot of characters on hold till we get a new development.
He has grown far more relevant in the last year and a half, he was one of the 3 leads in one of the highest selling books DC had. And thats just the "brand" (I hate that word).
The character is alive merely because of the good faith of the readers, we still havent gotten the interesting character that we did before the new 52.




> Steph has already been Tim's Robin. After becoming Robin, dying, and being solo in Africa for a year, I don't think she needed to become that again. Especially not in the incompetent way FabNic portrayed her as - getting shot and then using her sex appeal to disable the General.


I think she did need to find a new starting point after getting killed. It was as good a starting point as any.




> Hmm. What issue did Bruce tell Tim that he would become the back during NML? I just reread the whole thing in the new collections, and I don't remember that. But it's a huge story with a lot of stuff to remember. But that's still closer to the end of Dixon's 100 issues.


Batman 555

Wasnt dixon, it was Moench, but in the dixon era. 





> As a big fan of Yost's Red Robin run, I agree that Tim could do the job. I just disagree he had to become dark and morally ambiguous to do it. But FabNic disagreed, and pushed him right back in the morally ambigous hole.


I dont think Niciezas Red Robin was morally ambiguous, the character just embraced some of Bruces mania to get things done, he acknowledged it was necesary to a degree to succeed.




> And I am not convinced that FabNic was trying to say that Tim came out of his deathtrap for Boomerang a better man, since Bruce disapproves of his choices at the end of the issue.


He did tho. No parent wants to see their son go down that path, but he did. He made it back tho.




> Tynion's Tim does have a lot of Lobdell's Tim


The problem is deeper than just some personality traits. The big difference between the character pre and post flashpoint is very simple. One is a pragmatist, the other an idealist. From that point on everything falls apart.
Tim at his 13 being an idealist was fine, he was barely starting his career and he was just a kid. That kid grew up rapidly tho, because of his mothers death, his failures at doing the job, and his smart nature. 
I can even point out exactly the moment the last straw breaks the camels back.

This is when he realizes ideals are just not enough, this whole issue is about him questioning what he does, and its one of the most on point character moments he had in his entire history.
At some level i just really hope Tynion gets this and is writing tim as an idealist because none of those experiences are with him anymore.




> Tynion's Steph is pretty complicated. She's definitely very different from BQM's Batgirl Steph, but I think she's a pretty solid fit for Dixon's Steph in many ways.


The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
The steph we get is this angsty super genius daughter of super genius that fails to grasp why batman does what he does. I saw brought up that her relationship with Tim hurt the character because it made her lash out, but it was stablished thats the way she thought before Tim ever died, so his demise was merely a catalyst. I really miss the old steph, she was fun!




> I don't think that seems in character or admirable for Steph at all. She's practical, but she's also had a proper horror and hatred of those who kill for fun or profit (as we see in Robin #35 and Detective Comics #796).


Apreciate the fact that scarab didnt kill if she didnt have to. That she was professional enough to follow her employers instructions to the letter, and that she could be controlled if you had the money. Tho the last part backfired on her.




> I'm curious where you see the positive buzz for Tim in Rebirth? I'd love to get in on those discussions, since I'm definitely tired of repeating myself about all the good things I see in Tynion's Tim.


Reddit gets Tim threads all the time, some positive, some negative, but he is being discussed a lot more than most DC characters with a book. Also a ton of positive comments on DISQUS about him and his generation every day.
Both Tims "death" and future Tims story got plenty of coverage as well. The first one was overwhelmingly positive for the character, the second one, eh. I hated that story because it was a mess where nothing made sense and it didnt flow at all.

----------


## Assam

> The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
> The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
> The steph we get is this angsty super genius daughter of super genius that fails to grasp why batman does what he does. I saw brought up that her relationship with Tim hurt the character because it made her lash out, but it was stablished thats the way she thought before Tim ever died, so his demise was merely a catalyst. I really miss the old steph, she was fun!


That's just it though. She was an archetype. She was "fun". And those things alone do not make a fully fleshed out character.  One thing Miller and I have been saying from the start, even as our opinions diverged on the quality of Steph's storyline, was that Tynion needed to do _something_. There's nothing wrong with the "girl next door" archetype, but without all the character development she got over so many years, she's a generic, spunky teen hero. And since he couldn't repeat certain things (the pregnancy, her full history with Tim and Cass, the changes that came with being Robin and Batgirl, etc) and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else. 

Also, Steph stayed a hero because she wanted to be a hero, not to get the guy she liked. Frankly, if you just look at their characterizations from the 90's, one would get the impression that Steph would still be out spoiling plans long after Tim had decided to retire.

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## millernumber1

> I think she did need to find a new starting point after getting killed. It was as good a starting point as any.
> 
> I dont think Niciezas Red Robin was morally ambiguous, the character just embraced some of Bruces mania to get things done, he acknowledged it was necesary to a degree to succeed.
> 
> The problem is deeper than just some personality traits. The big difference between the character pre and post flashpoint is very simple. One is a pragmatist, the other an idealist. From that point on everything falls apart.
> Tim at his 13 being an idealist was fine, he was barely starting his career and he was just a kid. That kid grew up rapidly tho, because of his mothers death, his failures at doing the job, and his smart nature. 
> 
> The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
> The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
> ...


Why is "betraying Tim and basically being an incompetent" a good starting point for someone who's trying to redeem themselves from War Games? Not to mention actually contributing to ANOTHER set of gang wars? It's just so incredibly tone-deaf on FabNic's part.

Doing the kinds of things Tim was doing both at the end of his Robin run, and the end of his Red Robin run, were definitely "ends justify the means", which to me is very morally ambiguous. To some extent, all of the Batfamily have to do that, since they are vigilantes, but there's a line, and Tim's deliberately treading on it, instead of staying on one side of it.

Remember that at least as far as we know, neither of Tim's parents are dead, which means that the initial tragedy that started his life as Robin is gone, leaving him much more open to idealism, I think.

I agree that Steph is supposed to be the girl next door - and I think Tynion did get some of that (Seeley got it more, as did Fletcher to some extent). In Batman Eternal #43, he has her struggling with the enormity of the life she's chosen, and shows her previous life as a normal kid, with selfies and duckfaces (though you could make a serious if overly nerdy argument about her class being upgraded from barely-making-it in the suburbs to pretty solidly middle-class).

The Steph we see in Tec is likely supposed to be the Steph AFTER Dixon's 100 issues. She's been through a lot, and gotten mentored by both Catwoman and Batgirl. I do think the genius thing is pretty annoying, but I think except for the hacker-fu, Tynion mostly stays away from too much "I'm so smart" with Steph.

I do think that current Steph isn't nearly fun enough, but a lot of that was her grief for Tim, and then her anger at his deliberately not telling her his plans, even though they affected her and he knew what she thought his plans were. (A lot of Steph fans have told me that BQM's Steph is too chirpy and not angry enough, so I hope they, at least, are happy that she's full of the rage. Ah, well.)

Scarab killed KIDS! I don't care if she showed some restraint. She killed children. And she often killed their parents because it was easier. I do not buy, for one minute, that Steph written properly, would EVER work with or hire her.

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## millernumber1

> That's just it though. She was an archetype. She was "fun". And those things alone do not make a fully fleshed out character.  One thing Miller and I have been saying from the start, even as our opinions diverged on the quality of Steph's storyline, was that Tynion needed to do _something_. There's nothing wrong with the "girl next door" archetype, but without all the character development she got over so many years, she's a generic, spunky teen hero. And since he couldn't repeat certain things (the pregnancy, her full history with Tim and Cass, the changes that came with being Robin and Batgirl, etc) and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else. 
> 
> Also, Steph stayed a hero because she wanted to be a hero, not to get the guy she liked. Frankly, if you just look at their characterizations from the 90's, one would get the impression that Steph would still be out spoiling plans long after Tim had decided to retire.


Agreed! And I do want to reiterate that I think that Tynion did stumble significantly in Steph's storyline with Utopia and then Fall of the Batmen, I just think he recovered pretty solidly with 980, and I liked Wrath of Spoiler quite a bit.

I also agree that Steph was a hero who was in it because she wanted to help. She loved Tim, and there was an element of chasing him involved in her being Spoiler, but if you look at the arc where she became Robin, when Tim is forced to give up the cowl, there's no sign that she would give up being Spoiler because he gave up Robin. (Even if her becoming Robin was a tangled mess of her wanting Batman's approval and jealousy of Darla Aquista.) And Dixon, in the Robin/Spoiler Special, shows that being a hero is really who Steph is in her Africa story. Even FabNic, in the really slapdash Gotham Gazette story for Steph, has her persist in being a hero in the face of Tim's nastiest rejection.

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## Mataza

> and his Bruce wasn't a sexist d**khead who'd reject Steph, he had to try something else.


Why would he be sexist for rejecting her?

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## millernumber1

> Why would he be sexist for rejecting her?


Because he didn't reject any of the male Robins for doing the same things.

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## Mataza

> Why is "betraying Tim and basically being an incompetent" a good starting point.


I never much liked that she betrayed the guy, but it was basically in line with what she had done before. She basically cared more about what everyone else but Tim thought.
If you want to reedem the character you have to ackowledge the development first, and work from there.
Its better than having the characters ignore what happened. Like Dick letting a woman kill his nemesis and rape him.




> Doing the kinds of things Tim was doing both at the end of his Robin run, and the end of his Red Robin run, were definitely "ends justify the means", which to me is very morally ambiguous. To some extent, all of the Batfamily have to do that, since they are vigilantes, but there's a line, and Tim's deliberately treading on it, instead of staying on one side of it.


And thats fine, the character always threaded on the line. From the start when he worked with the huntress all the way to the end. Its interesting.




> Remember that at least as far as we know, neither of Tim's parents are dead, which means that the initial tragedy that started his life as Robin is gone, leaving him much more open to idealism, I think.


Probably, hopefully thats what Tynion is going for. But having to endure this boring kid with no drive or conflict is getting on my nerves, and i just recently got into the character, cant imagine what its like for long time fans.




> The Steph we see in Tec is likely supposed to be the Steph AFTER Dixon's 100 issues. She's been through a lot, and gotten mentored by both Catwoman and Batgirl. I do think the genius thing is pretty annoying, but I think except for the hacker-fu, Tynion mostly stays away from too much "I'm so smart" with Steph.


No, actually this is a completely different steph. This isnt the girl that got annoyed with batman and slapped him, this is the girl that tried to blackmail everyone close to her to get them to listen.




> I do think that current Steph isn't nearly fun enough, but a lot of that was her grief for Tim, and then her anger at his deliberately not telling her his plans, even though they affected her and he knew what she thought his plans were. (A lot of Steph fans have told me that BQM's Steph is too chirpy and not angry enough, so I hope they, at least, are happy that she's full of the rage. Ah, well.)


Grief was a catalyst, she was with the knights because of Tim, not because she believed in what Batman did. And them breaking up over him getting obessed wasnt bad for either character, conflict and tension are good.




> Scarab killed KIDS! I don't care if she showed some restraint. She killed children. And she often killed their parents because it was easier. I do not buy, for one minute, that Steph written properly, would EVER work with or hire her.


Harley has killed kids and bruce and dick are all too happy to help her out some times.
But other than that she could have had any number of reasons to hire scarab, maybe it was a setup so that tim would capture her, maybe it was because she thought deadshot, deathstroke or shiva were a bit out of Tims league, maybe it was because she was available and steph knew how to contact her, maybe it was just because Nicieza liked the character, seeing as he reused her during the Red Robin solo. Who knows, its not relevant to the story, and if a writer was interested in exploring why she did it they would have.

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## Mataza

> Because he didn't reject any of the male Robins for doing the same things.


Its heavily implied she was just using Steph to get Tim back in the costume. She could have been an attack helicopter and it wouldnt have mattered.
Also i really dont remember any robin fudging it up that badly.

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## millernumber1

> I never much liked that she betrayed the guy, but it was basically in line with what she had done before. She basically cared more about what everyone else but Tim thought.
> If you want to reedem the character you have to ackowledge the development first, and work from there.
> Its better than having the characters ignore what happened. Like Dick letting a woman kill his nemesis and rape him.
> 
> And thats fine, the character always threaded on the line. From the start when he worked with the huntress all the way to the end. Its interesting.
> 
> Probably, hopefully thats what Tynion is going for. But having to endure this boring kid with no drive or conflict is getting on my nerves, and i just recently got into the character, cant imagine what its like for long time fans.
> 
> No, actually this is a completely different steph. This isnt the girl that got annoyed with batman and slapped him, this is the girl that tried to blackmail everyone close to her to get them to listen.
> ...


I do not follow what you're saying in your analogy between Dick and Steph.

When did Steph care more about everyone but Tim before War Games? Tim was basically the most important person in her life until War Games, and even then, she loved him intensely.

Let's say that fundamentally, I see Tim as much more of a natural idealist. Thus, Tynion's version of him rings pretty true to me. And I don't think he's boring at all. He built really cool stuff for the Belfry - how is that a lack of drive? That particular comment is just so detached from anything we saw in Detective Comics I'm really puzzled about what you're reading.

How is Steph slapping Bruce for playing games with her radically different that Steph who (fake) blackmails Batman to try to make life better for her fellow heros? I simply don't follow a lot of your leaps in logic.

I don't think you can really make a claim that Steph was with the Knights because of Tim. She was clearly out heroing before she started dating Tim, and continued doing it solo even when they were dating. She clearly had philosophical and more importantly emotional problems with Batman from the start in her new origin in Batman Eternal.

I agree that her breaking up with Tim over getting obsessed was good, but her going back and forth in two issues - first she tells Anarky that she's "where she's supposed to be" and then the next issue she just NOPEs out on Tim. I think she makes the right choice to leave Tim since he's lying to her and clearly not willing to change his behavior even to save his own health, let alone their relationship, but the going back and forth was a real failing in writing.

I don't see Bruce and Dick teaming up with Harley except when the world is ending. Steph hires Scarab at a time of crisis, yes, but there are other people she could have gone with. The fact that you think Steph's part of the story isn't important I think pretty much proves that FabNic wasn't writing her well.

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## millernumber1

> Its heavily implied she was just using Steph to get Tim back in the costume. She could have been an attack helicopter and it wouldnt have mattered.
> Also i really dont remember any robin fudging it up that badly.


1) I'm talking about Batman's pattern of rejection starting with Dixon's exit from the Robin title, where Bruce setup that horrible test with the Penguin and then played mind games with her for a whole issue.

2) What, exactly, is your articulation of Stephs screwing up so badly? She tried to save Batman and fell into a trap. Robins are famous for falling into traps. She didn't get anyone killed, she just served as Robin, the Girl Hostage, letting the bad guy get away temporarily (but since FabNic is a jerk, Scarab just shows up later over and over again, instead of Steph or Tim or Bruce focusing on taking that murderous criminal down.)

3) You say yourself that it's an IMPLICATION, meaning that the motivation behind Bruce letting Steph be Robin is not explicit. Which, to me, implies that there's more going on, especially given all the interviews with Willingham where he's said he would have preferred for Bruce to keep Steph as Robin because sales were good and he wanted to tell a seasoned warrior training a young squire story really badly. So that, to me, indicates that the creative team wasn't just playing a complete game with Steph.

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## Mataza

> I do not follow what you're saying in your analogy between Dick and Steph.


That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.




> When did Steph care more about everyone but Tim before War Games? Tim was basically the most important person in her life until War Games, and even then, she loved him intensely.


Steph loves Tim like no one else, and he loves her back in the same way. They are a classical pairing, a strong one that started basically at the start of both of their careers, she is his mary jane.
But after a certain point she stopped caring about his advice, and started listening to people that thought knew better, oracle, black canary, batman, etc. 




> Let's say that fundamentally, I see Tim as much more of a natural idealist. Thus, Tynion's version of him rings pretty true to me. And I don't think he's boring at all. He built really cool stuff for the Belfry - how is that a lack of drive? That particular comment is just so detached from anything we saw in Detective Comics I'm really puzzled about what you're reading.


Tim hasnt been an idealist since dixon started writing him, he has been very grounded for most of his run, very pragmatic and concerned with whats right in front of him.
He is boring because he is basically the blank slate we got in a lonely place of dying with a tech saavy flavor. I didnt think he built anything cool, more like he put together a ton of really expensive equipment that already exists in real life.
And his lack of drive was there up until the lonely place of living arc, where he goes into detail about why he does what he does. Then he spends the rest of the run being completely self absorbed and worried about a possible future. Instead of being proactive like the old Tim during the birthday storyline this kid just gets angry and leaves, then gets back and is useless.




> How is Steph slapping Bruce for playing games with her radically different that Steph who (fake) blackmails Batman to try to make life better for her fellow heros? I simply don't follow a lot of your leaps in logic.


The first one is funny, its cute, endearing. The second one made most people groan.




> I don't think you can really make a claim that Steph was with the Knights because of Tim.


In the first issue of detective she tells Tim shes only there because of him. For the reasons you posted below.




> She was clearly out heroing before she started dating Tim, and continued doing it solo even when they were dating. She clearly had philosophical and more importantly emotional problems with Batman from the start in her new origin in Batman Eternal.


Agreed.




> I agree that her breaking up with Tim over getting obsessed was good, but her going back and forth in two issues - first she tells Anarky that she's "where she's supposed to be" and then the next issue she just NOPEs out on Tim. I think she makes the right choice to leave Tim since he's lying to her and clearly not willing to change his behavior even to save his own health, let alone their relationship, but the going back and forth was a real failing in writing.


Agree, could have been cut out.




> I don't see Bruce and Dick teaming up with Harley except when the world is ending. Steph hires Scarab at a time of crisis, yes, but there are other people she could have gone with. The fact that you think Steph's part of the story isn't important I think pretty much proves that FabNic wasn't writing her well.


I believe her part in the story is essential to the story and to the larger story that comes after, i just dont believe the "why scarab?" is.
Plenty of times Harley has been teamed up with them, and with the league as well.
Theres this story where batman drives her home, theres that other story where harley and dick work together when he was a spy, etc. Shes a popular character, so she gets pushed with most characters pretty often. Its not a bad thing in itself, but just like her being in a justice league team, it makes absolutely no sense from a storytelling standpoing.

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## millernumber1

> That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
> Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.
> 
> Steph loves Tim like no one else, and he loves her back in the same way. They are a classical pairing, a strong one that started basically at the start of both of their careers, she is his mary jane.
> But after a certain point she stopped caring about his advice, and started listening to people that thought knew better, oracle, black canary, batman, etc. 
> 
> The first one is funny, its cute, endearing. The second one made most people groan.
> 
> In the first issue of detective she tells Tim shes only there because of him. For the reasons you posted below.
> ...


I don't see Steph's redemption really started until Batgirl. You can maybe make a case for Gotham Gazette, but that's kinda tenuous. FabNic seems to be mostly digging Steph further in a hole she needs to get out of.

Definitely agree that Steph and Tim's histories are intertwined at their roots, and she is the pairing that makes most sense for him (and he for her, in my reading, though I can see the arguments against it).  I don't see her being mentored by Dinah or Bruce really stopping her from listening to Tim, though. At least not until she became Robin. Where do you see her ignoring Tim's advice and listening to someone else before that point?

I don't see many non-Steph fans even bringing up the slap. I have no doubt that if non-Steph fans did bring it up, it would be to complain about how terrible she is, just like every time they bring her up. I do agree that Steph fans were mostly not on Steph's side with the ending of the Victim Syndicate - but I think if you read it carefully, she's still sympathetic, even if she's wrong.

I just reread 934, and I really don't see Steph saying anything like that. I also checked 935 and 939. When Tim tells Steph he's going to Ivy University, it's clear that Steph will remain in Gotham, and no indication that she'll give up being a hero.

I really don't think Harley has teamed up with Batman or Nightwing "plenty of times" when it's not something crazy, like Metal or Nope Justice. Additionally, when has Harley gone around just straight up murdering children since n52 (since that's the version we're talking about here). I really don't see Batman doing much to team up with Harley pre-Flashpoint, either. He lets her do her thing in Gotham City Sirens, but that's because the courts cleared her and she's not actually doing anything evil. But fundamentally, I don't think it's really worth arguing about Steph hiring Scarab. Either you think it's in character for Steph to be so callous and stupid, or you think FabNic was handling her character really poorly for no good reason.

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## Godlike13

> That Steph had the bad development acknowledged, which sets up a redemption story. And making her into the next Batgirl was quite redeeming.
> Dick instead gets the bad developent ignored, meaning one less interesting conflict to explore in a character that already has very few interesting conflicts to explore. They should have rolled with it, and seen where it took them.


Not the place to go into it, but this isn't even close to accurate.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not the place to go into it, but this isn't even close to accurate.


About Steph or about Dick?

----------


## Godlike13

> About Steph or about Dick?


Dick.

Though with Steph, ultimately how they redeemed her was to have her move forward. Her Batgirl didn't really have much set up even.

----------


## Aahz

> They're both going to be in the _Young Justice Outsiders_ cartoon, which as far as media prospects seems pretty good, and it seems possible they might both be in the eventual _Young Justice_ relaunch.


Problem is, that the main characters of that show seem to be these guys.

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## millernumber1

> Dick.
> 
> Though with Steph, ultimately how they redeemed her was to have her move forward. Her Batgirl didn't really have much set up even.


Most of the setup was in the actual Batgirl series, though bits and pieces were in Gotham Gazette and Oracle The Cure.

But the first arc was pretty strongly about Steph seeking to make things right after War Games, so I think it is more than just moving on.

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## Godlike13

> Most of the setup was in the actual Batgirl series, though bits and pieces were in Gotham Gazette and Oracle The Cure.
> 
> But the first arc was pretty strongly about Steph seeking to make things right after War Games, so I think it is more than just moving on.


I would say the first arc was actually about Steph seeking to prove herself after War Game, more so then make thing right.

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## millernumber1

> I would say the first arc was actually about Steph seeking to prove herself after War Game, more so then make thing right.


I don't see a significant difference - could you elaborate?

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't see a significant difference - could you elaborate?


She wasn’t serving a penance or seeking atonement for War Games, or working to repair its damage, that’s not really what the first arc was about.

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## millernumber1

> She wasn’t serving a penance or seeking atonement for War Games, that’s not really what the first arc was about.


Well, I think being tortured nearly to death requiring a year of recuperation is more than enough penance. I do think she was seeking atonement - making things right, changing her behavior so that she doesn't do the same thing (like FabNic had her doing...ugh).

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## Godlike13

> Well, I think being tortured nearly to death requiring a year of recuperation is more than enough penance. I do think she was seeking atonement - making things right, changing her behavior so that she doesn't do the same thing (like FabNic had her doing...ugh).


I agree there, I’m not saying she needed to be punished or anything, but changing ones behavior, and trying not to make the same mistake, doesn’t just atone for ones mistakes or it’s effects.

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## millernumber1

> I agree there, I’m not saying there needed to be punished or anything, but changing ones behavior doesn’t just atone for ones mistakes or it’s effects.


I mean, it's a bit hard to specifically atone for the immediate consequences of War Games, since Black Mask was dead, and the criminal/political landscape was completely different when Steph returned. However, I view her attempts to keep crimefighting, and especially to take on the Batgirl mantel, as explicitly to make Gotham a better place because of how much she screwed up in War Games, so to me, that's attempting to find redemption.

----------


## Mataza

> Definitely agree that Steph and Tim's histories are intertwined at their roots, and she is the pairing that makes most sense for him (and he for her, in my reading, though I can see the arguments against it).  I don't see her being mentored by Dinah or Bruce really stopping her from listening to Tim, though. At least not until she became Robin. Where do you see her ignoring Tim's advice and listening to someone else before that point?


Robin 80 page giant, but the tendencies were there before that, she was looking for another mentor and stopped respecting Tims authority gradually before that. Ultimately her betraying him to become robin wasnt a development that came out of nowhere.
The pairing makes sense up to a certain point, by the time he becomes Red Robin and she becomes Batgirl theres just too much water under the bridge, they hurt eachother too many times. It was time for both of them to move on.
I would have probably had them sporadically revisit their relationship over the years, slowly healing it.




> I don't see many non-Steph fans even bringing up the slap. I have no doubt that if non-Steph fans did bring it up, it would be to complain about how terrible she is, just like every time they bring her up. I do agree that Steph fans were mostly not on Steph's side with the ending of the Victim Syndicate - but I think if you read it carefully, she's still sympathetic, even if she's wrong.


Agree, all im saying is that she went too far in a few places. And that i really dont like the shape the new 52 character has taken.




> I just reread 934, and I really don't see Steph saying anything like that. I also checked 935 and 939. When Tim tells Steph he's going to Ivy University, it's clear that Steph will remain in Gotham, and no indication that she'll give up being a hero.


Not a hero, she just didnt agree with Batmans methods and wasnt interested in being a knight.

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## millernumber1

> Robin 80 page giant, but the tendencies were there before that, she was looking for another mentor and stopped respecting Tims authority gradually before that. Ultimately her betraying him to become robin wasnt a development that came out of nowhere.
> The pairing makes sense up to a certain point, by the time he becomes Red Robin and she becomes Batgirl theres just too much water under the bridge, they hurt eachother too many times. It was time for both of them to move on.
> I would have probably had them sporadically revisit their relationship over the years, slowly healing it.
> 
> Agree, all im saying is that she went too far in a few places. And that i really dont like the shape the new 52 character has taken.
> 
> Not a hero, she just didnt agree with Batmans methods and wasnt interested in being a knight.


I think it's true to say that Tim's constant rejection of Steph (through not telling her his name, or giving her better training, or standing up to Batman about Bruce's constant rejection) did lead to her seeking affirmation from other people for her desire to be a hero. I don't think her becoming Robin was a betrayal, though. Steph's always been independent, so it's not like she ever took Tim's word as gospel. But she also never completely rejected him until just before she became Batgirl (again, in Gotham Gazette).

I do think that largely because of FabNic's writing of the last year of Robin, TimSteph was not in good shape, and I would definitely support their reconciliation gradually.

You're definitely not alone in disliking Steph's Rebirth direction - but I would pose the same question I've been posing for a year: what is the alternative plot for Steph that would advance her towards being a solo character? Just being a cute spunky hero (Tim's girlfriend or not) wouldn't do it. She would just become the new Azrael or Batwing, people wondering why she's there. People may dislike her plotline, but they at least know what her storyline is.

I really, really think you're making completely unjustifiable assumptions about Steph in Rebirth. Both time's she's quit the team, she never stopped being a hero. She did have emotional problems with Bruce because of Batman Eternal, but I really don't see that she's against the Knights program or only there for Tim at all. There's really nothing to support your argument in the text there.

----------


## Mataza

> I think it's true to say that Tim's constant rejection of Steph (through not telling her his name, or giving her better training, or standing up to Batman about Bruce's constant rejection) did lead to her seeking affirmation from other people for her desire to be a hero. I don't think her becoming Robin was a betrayal, though. Steph's always been independent, so it's not like she ever took Tim's word as gospel. But she also never completely rejected him until just before she became Batgirl (again, in Gotham Gazette).


She literally went behind his back and dressed as robin to try to get the mantle. She had her priorities before wargames, and Tim wasnt one of them. And the poor kid kept trying to call her and talk. Thats as big a betrayal as any other.
As for Tim not telling his boss he was being mean to his crush, and that they should give her a chance because he likes her, thats just not Tim. The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance.

Oh, and i remember telling you it was implied Bruce was just using her. 
Heres the scan.
alfred.jpg





> I do think that largely because of FabNic's writing of the last year of Robin, TimSteph was not in good shape, and I would definitely support their reconciliation gradually.


Thats probably one of the reasons, but their relationship was damaged long before he wrote the characters. Nicieza didnt introduce new elements during his Robin run, he just reused old elements.




> People may dislike her plotline, but they at least know what her storyline is.


Do they tho? she has probably the most convoluted origin of the batfamily right now, of which she is a side character. Which you had to read during the new 52. 




> Batman Eternal, but I really don't see that she's against the Knights program or only there for Tim at all. There's really nothing to support your argument in the text there.


Thats true, i seem to have misremembered some lines of dialogue, still havent reread Detective rebirth yet so i will get back to you on this.

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## millernumber1

> She literally went behind his back and dressed as robin to try to get the mantle. She had her priorities before wargames, and Tim wasnt one of them. And the poor kid kept trying to call her and talk. Thats as big a betrayal as any other.
> As for Tim not telling his boss he was being mean to his crush, and that they should give her a chance because he likes her, thats just not Tim. The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance.
> 
> Oh, and i remember telling you it was implied Bruce was just using her. 
> Heres the scan.
> 
> Thats probably one of the reasons, but their relationship was damaged long before he wrote the characters. Nicieza didnt introduce new elements during his Robin run, he just reused old elements.
> 
> Do they tho? she has probably the most convoluted origin of the batfamily right now, of which she is a side character. Which you had to read during the new 52. 
> ...


Okay, if you're going to make statements like "Tim wasn't one of Steph's priorities", that betrays a significant supression or omission of huge chunks of text. She had a tangled complex of motivations in seeking to become Robin. One of them was anger at Tim for kissing Darla. Do I think Steph was acting very right by Tim when she became Robin? No. But if you can make a statement like that in all sincerity, you need to reread at least all of Willingham's run as well as War Games.

As for Steph just being Tim's crush, that's just a ridiculous. Tim told Batman directly that he was in love with Steph. Did he ever stand up for Steph? No, not really (except for a tiny hint in Gotham Knights). But it wasn't just a crush, or that he liked her.

I have no idea what you're implying when you say "The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance" - because if you're trying to say that "and Steph wasn't good enough," that's not appropriate for an appreciation thread.

I own every comic in which Steph appears as Robin, most of them twice (hard copy and digital). I've read them all multiple times. When I say that Batman's motivations are implied, which is to say not explicit, you may rest assured that I had in mind exactly that panel.

Their relationship was damaged, but Dixon clearly meant it to be on the mend when he brought her back, whereas FabNic just pushed it down the tubes. And no, it wasn't new - but it was frustratingly incoherent, especially when it comes to long term motivations and plans for every character.

How in the world is Steph's origin the most convoluted, when you have Tim's combination of n52 and Lonely Place of Dying? And what's terribly convoluted about Steph finding out her dad is Cluemaster, becoming Spoiler to stop him, and then continuing as a hero after his death? Batman Eternal is long, not super hard to follow.

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## juffuj5

Guys, James Tynion IV is going to do a AMA on the DC Reddit page. I've got some Steph-related questions to prepare. https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._june_5_at_11/

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## millernumber1

> Guys, James Tynion IV is going to do a AMA on the DC Reddit page. I've got some Steph-related questions to prepare. https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._june_5_at_11/


Oooh, like what? I am planning to ask about Tim's parents, but will definitely try to think of Steph questions too!

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## juffuj5

> Oooh, like what? I am planning to ask about Tim's parents, but will definitely try to think of Steph questions too!


Just asking why was Steph written mainly to be Tim's girlfriend instead of her own character.

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## millernumber1

> Just asking why was Steph written mainly to be Tim's girlfriend instead of her own character.


Hmm. Well, I wouldn't phrase it that way myself, but a lot of Steph fans do want to know that. I am thinking of asking how the idea came to show the alternate universe to Steph and Cass, and how editorial reacted to it.

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## brer rabbit

Hey guys what do you think of this AU idea involving Stephanie Brown?

Stephanie: "NO NO NO! That bastard he LIED! He said he was done with it all, done with being the Cluemaster." She said with bile.

Stephanie Brown* was furious as she had just found out her father Arthur Brown had resumed criminal activities as Cluemaster after getting released from prison and what's worse, he was no longer leaving clues behind for his crimes and was getting away with it all.

Stephanie: "Of course it was another lie, crime and money is only things he cares about, not mother and certain not me. I really hope he was going to at least try this time but it hasn't been even a GODDAMN WEEK!"

Enraged, Stephanie smashes the bathroom mirror with her fist which causes blood to come from her hand.

Stephanie: "Someone needs to stop him. And if the Police can't figure it out, I'll give them hints, I'll will become Spo-"

Just as Stephanie is about to finish that sentence, a small red object that looked like a ring crashs through her bathroom window surprising her.

"Stephanie Brown of Earth. You have Great RAGE in your heart. You BELONG. To the RED LANTERN CORPS."

Stephanie: "Wait wha-" is all she can say before goes on her finger and Stephanie Brown life changes forever.

And yes there will be some changes to the Red Lantern Corps so that Stephanie will not be just a mindless killing machine like in Corps early days.

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## millernumber1

> Hey guys what do you think of this AU idea involving Stephanie Brown?
> 
> Stephanie: "NO NO NO! That bastard he LIED! He said he was done with it all, done with being the Cluemaster." She said with bile.
> 
> Stephanie Brown* was furious as she had just found out her father Arthur Brown had resumed criminal activities as Cluemaster after getting released from prison and what's worse, he was no longer leaving clues behind for his crimes and was getting away with it all.
> 
> Stephanie: "Of course it was another lie, crime and money is only things he cares about, not mother and certain not me. I really hope he was going to at least try this time but it hasn't been even a GODDAMN WEEK!"
> 
> Enraged, Stephanie smashes the bathroom mirror with her fist which causes blood to come from her hand.
> ...


I'm always up for an AU.  :Smile: 

I think it's so fun whenever people try to make Steph a lantern, though, because people get so heated about which one she is. BQM made her a Blue Lantern in her Black Mercy hallucination, which fit with his run, where she was all about hope (and as a non-lantern reader, I think if she's like Lois Lane Blue Lantern in Nightwing: The New Order, I'm down for that). Several fanarts have made her a Green Lantern, and BQM again made her Babs in Smallville, who was originally Steph and he's openly admitted he wrote pretty much like Steph even though her name was Babs, a Green Lantern in the end of that series (oh, my heart. So much amaze and sadness - everyone should go read Smallville Season 11 now!) And there's definitely a lot of fans who agree with your theory, that Steph has a lot of rage and would be a Red Lantern. As long as Steph's a hero and has a good story, I am for it!

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## Assam

Getting a bit more pessimistic about Steph's future. Miller, you listened to the same podcast I did and from the sound of one thing Hill said, it seems like Bruce is going to be on the Outsiders team with Cass, fulfilling the 'Book with two Knights' that Tynion was 'helping to develop.' Steph's still with Tim, who we know there are plans for (probably still YJ), but even if she's with him when they next pop up, that doesn't mean she's going to have a regular home in Tim's new book.

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## Mataza

Shell probably be a regular in his book. And yeah, i know its a regression for the character, but its less of a regression than a lot of characters have suffered. Shell make it back into her own solo tho, shes a great character on her own, she just needs a decent writer and to get her old stuff back.

Already her Spoiler mantle is meme material and can only grow in popularity.

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## Assam

> Shell probably be a regular in his book.


I'm not saying it's impossible, but if Outsiders does turn out to be the book Tynion was referring to (which, thinking about it, makes more sense since it's spinning directly out of 'Tec and he's said he's no longer involved with Tim), all my previous ideas about why Steph may not be a regular in YJ are once again valid.

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## Frontier

> I'm not saying it's impossible, but if Outsiders does turn out to be the book Tynion was referring to (which, thinking about it, makes more sense since it's spinning directly out of 'Tec and he's said he's no longer involved with Tim), all more previous ideas about why Steph may not be a regular in YJ are once again valid.


It probably depends a lot on who's going to end up writing Young Justice and how much said writer is willing to dive into the characters involved or those closest to them.

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## millernumber1

> Getting a bit more pessimistic about Steph's future. Miller, you listened to the same podcast I did and from the sound of one thing Hill said, it seems like Bruce is going to be on the Outsiders team with Cass, fulfilling the 'Book with two Knights' that Tynion was 'helping to develop.' Steph's still with Tim, who we know there are plans for (probably still YJ), but even if she's with him when they next pop up, that doesn't mean she's going to have a regular home in Tim's new book.


Yeah. I don't know about Bruce on the Outsiders, but that would be a worst case scenario on that interpretation - not worst because the book will be bad, I have every hope it'll be amazing - but worst for Tim and Steph fans, since we were hoping for another book for them.




> Shell probably be a regular in his book. And yeah, i know its a regression for the character, but its less of a regression than a lot of characters have suffered. Shell make it back into her own solo tho, shes a great character on her own, she just needs a decent writer and to get her old stuff back.
> 
> Already her Spoiler mantle is meme material and can only grow in popularity.


That's the positive side of my thinking.




> It probably depends a lot on who's going to end up writing Young Justice and how much said writer is willing to dive into the characters involved or those closest to them.


Yup, that makes sense.

Though I still don't know why we're sure YJ is happening, since we already have both Titans and Teen Titans. However, if the rumors of DC Universe going online in August are true, there's a chance of Young Justice Outsiders going online earlier, too - maybe September. Which would mean that a tie-in or synergy series might happen. But I'm not seeing those announcements, so I'm still skeptical.

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## Godlike13

I think its wishful thinking that Steph would have much of a role in a YJ series, and even if she was in it I have a hard time seeing that she would get much focused when most of those guys need quite a bit of work themselves. And if she did get focuse I could see YJ fans turning on her.

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## millernumber1

> I think its wishful thinking that Steph would have much of a role in a YJ series, and even if she was in it I have a hard time seeing that she would get much focused when most of those guys need quite a bit of work themselves. And if she did get focuse I could see YJ fans turning on her.


Really depends on the writer.

And...is there a reason you're trying to rain on the parade?

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## Godlike13

> Really depends on the writer.
> 
> And...is there a reason you're trying to rain on the parade?


Thats a parade? Look im sorry, but it just doesn't seem a like the best situation to be hoping for a book she has never had much of a role in before to be her savior. Where is the precedent even for that?

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## millernumber1

> Thats a parade? Look im sorry, but it just doesn't seem a like the best situation to be hoping for a book she has never had much of a role in before to be her savior. Where is the precedent even for that?


It is an appreciation thread.

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## Godlike13

> It is an appreciation thread.


What does that have to do with this discussion. Im not advocating against Steph or anything by disagreeing that YJ is her hope.

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## Frontier

I dunno.

Personally I'd reserve any judgement's about Steph's possible role in a Young Justice book until we get a creative team and roster, but just the idea of her at least being in a book would be nice. 

I'm actually kind of curious if Mairghead Scott, Cass fan that she is, would be willing to feature her in _Batgirl._

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## millernumber1

> What does that have to do with this discussion. Im not advocating against Steph or anything by disagreeing that YJ is her hope.


How is that appreciating Steph?




> I dunno.
> 
> Personally I'd reserve any judgement's about Steph's possible role in a Young Justice book until we get a creative team and roster, but just the idea of her at least being in a book would be nice. 
> 
> I'm actually kind of curious if Mairghead Scott, Cass fan that she is, would be willing to feature her in _Batgirl._


Well. I'm still afraid that editorial will stomp on Scott's Cass hopes. And ours. So until we have actual confirmation (probably not until the book is in our hands) that Cass will be in the book, I'm worried that this will just be Babs, solo as usual. But hope to be proven wrong.

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## Godlike13

> How is that appreciating Steph?


Im recognizing that YJ might not be a real hope for Steph, nor a place where she could really succeed.

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## millernumber1

> Im recognizing that YJ might not be a real hope for Steph, nor a place where she could really succeed.


I don't see how that answers my question. It may be factually true, but it's not appreciation.

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## Godlike13

Im appreciating Steph and YJ's situation.

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## millernumber1

> Im appreciating Steph and YJ's situation.


An appreciation thread uses the more common definition of the word: "the recognition and enjoyment of the good qualities of someone or something," not the second, "a full understanding of a situation" (and definitely not the third, "increase in monetary value").

What really bothers me about the first post I responded to:




> I think its wishful thinking that Steph would have much of a role in a YJ series, and even if she was in it I have a hard time seeing that she would get much focused when most of those guys need quite a bit of work themselves. And if she did get focuse I could see YJ fans turning on her.


It is true that Steph has never been on a Young Justice or Teen Titans or Titans teem, and because of that track record, there's a very good reason to believe that the trend will continue. However, when Assam said the same thing, they said:




> Getting a bit more pessimistic about Steph's future.


Pessimism indicates that they think it's a sad or bad thing, not just a fact. When you post facts about how a character will be screwed in an appreciation thread, it feels very much like either you don't care that it's bad for the character, or you think it's good that it's happening. Appreciation means positive, not facts.

Furthermore, you say that "most of those guys need quite a bit of work themselves." Yes, they do. But the implication is that Steph doesn't deserve it, and they do.

Lastly, YJ fans turning on her - again the implication that they would be right to do so. Like she doesn't deserve to be there. Maybe you meant that a bad writer would write her badly - but if so, stating it in a way that shows you appreciate (as in recognize and enjoy her good qualities) rather than implying that you just want Steph fans to know their place, and stop hoping for things that you don't think they should get.

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## Godlike13

Facts are just facts. They are not inherently negative or positive. You are making assumptions, and projecting your own insecurities here. 

First Steph not being in YJ is not necessarily a bad or negative thing IMO. Because i don't want to see Steph in a place that i don't think will benefit her, and i don't want to see Steph in a place i don't believe she will be able to succeed. YJ IMO is not a place i think will benefit Steph or will be a place she could really succeed.

Second what i was actually implying is that there are only so many pages, and as the outsider Steph will most likely fall in priority to the core characters that the YJ comic was originally built around. A core in which she was not, and never has been a part of. Which has nothing to do with whether or not she deserves it. 

And thirdly, YJ fans turning on her is something thats common within fandom. Look at Harper Row. Steph would be an outsider when it comes to YJ, and those characters fans are just as desperate to see DC do something with them. Which again has nothing to do with what Steph does or doesn't deserve. 

You are being way too defensive here. My actual motivation is that im not convince that a YJ book is even gonna happen, and even if it does, as someone who likes Steph, i wouldn't want to see her in it as i don't believe it would be a place that is actually gonna help her. Understand my opinion on YJ and that group of characters is not great. To be brutally honesty, i think all those character are dead ends (though im perfectly open to letting DC convince me otherwise), and i personally don't want to see Steph anywhere near them. I want Steph to get the hell away from Tim, for her own good.

Now if this against the rules of appreciation threads, i apologize but i personally don't think its it is. In no way is it my intention or motivation to slight Steph with what i have said.

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## millernumber1

> You are being way too defensive here. My actual motivation is that im not convince that a YJ book is even gonna happen, and even if it does, as someone who likes Steph, i wouldn't want to see her in a place i don't believe actually gonna help her. Understand my opinion on YJ and that group of character, is not great. To be brutally honesty, i think all those character are dead ends (though im perfectly open to letting DC convince me otherwise), and don't want to see Steph anywhere near them. I want Steph to get the hell away from Tim, for her own good.
> 
> Now if this against the rules of appreciation threads, i apologies but i personally don't think its it is. In no way is it my intention to slight Steph with what i have said.


Defending the subject of an appreciation thread is one of the major points of appreciation threads. This forum is thankfully not generally home to frequent and intense anti-Steph posts, but they do show up even here. And you don't have to go far to find people who often say they wish Steph stayed dead or erased, or that she deserved what Black Mask did, or even that they just think she's always been incredibly annoying (previous to the hotly debated appearances in Detective Comics for the past year and a half).

I appreciate that you do not intend to slight Steph.

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## berserkerclaw

i really hope a mini series or ongoing starring Steph and Tim happens. i like what they planned to do after quitting the Knights

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## millernumber1

> i really hope a mini series or ongoing starring Steph and Tim happens. i like what they planned to do after quitting the Knights


That would be pretty cool! I wonder if any tie-ins to Doomsday Clock will happen closer to its ending.

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## The Dying Detective

> That would be pretty cool! I wonder if any tie-ins to Doomsday Clock will happen closer to its ending.


There are supposed to be no tie-in to Doomsday Clock though I'm beginning to wonder whether that is wise at this point because for it to work Johns needs the editorial to work with him.

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## millernumber1

> There are supposed to be no tie-in to Doomsday Clock though I'm beginning to wonder whether that is wise at this point because for it to work Johns needs the editorial to work with him.


I don't think a committment to no tie-ins will really hold two full years after the series launches, and they want to launch some new stuff. Look at New Age of Heroes - I could see at least Legion of Super Heros spinning out/tying into Doomsday Clock, and a Spoiler/Red Robin detective book looking at the lost time would also seem sensible.

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## The Dying Detective

> I don't think a committment to no tie-ins will really hold two full years after the series launches, and they want to launch some new stuff. Look at New Age of Heroes - I could see at least Legion of Super Heros spinning out/tying into Doomsday Clock, and a Spoiler/Red Robin detective book looking at the lost time would also seem sensible.


Well for all we know Doomsday Clock takes place eight months and a year into the future so we should I think know Tim and Stephanie's fate by then I mean Tim was so important to it he got taken off the board for a while. I should hope that Tim would also have a role to play aside from Batman, Superman, and the Flashes. And I hope I am reasoning this right but I am sure the Red Robin/Spoiler book might be coming out before it ends.

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## millernumber1

> Well for all we know Doomsday Clock takes place eight months and a year into the future so we should I think know Tim and Stephanie's fate by then I mean Tim was so important to it he got taken off the board for a while. I should hope that Tim would also have a role to play aside from Batman, Superman, and the Flashes. And I hope I am reasoning this right but I am sure the Red Robin/Spoiler book might be coming out before it ends.


We'll have to wait and see. What seems logical to Steph fans is almost never what seems logical to editorial.  :Frown:

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## The Dying Detective

> We'll have to wait and see. What seems logical to Steph fans is almost never what seems logical to editorial.


Unfortunately for the editorial Tim and Stephanie are a package deal at the moment I doubt they could foolish enough to ignore that. And look on the bright side at least Didio is calling the shots on editorial if it were up to him he'll probably never include her at all.

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## millernumber1

> Unfortunately for the editorial Tim and Stephanie are a package deal at the moment I doubt they could foolish enough to ignore that. And look on the bright side at least Didio is calling the shots on editorial if it were up to him he'll probably never include her at all.


Honestly, I don't think that's the case except for very unimaginative writers and editors. Any good writer would probably think of a story for Steph, and if Tim worked, they'd put her in, if not, they wouldn't.

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## The Dying Detective

> Honestly, I don't think that's the case except for very unimaginative writers and editors. Any good writer would probably think of a story for Steph, and if Tim worked, they'd put her in, if not, they wouldn't.


I'm just saying that Tim is actually very important right now for Stephanie to be used in a story at all. With how important Tim is to DC's current plans DC will be forced to consider giving Stephanie a role or die trying.

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## millernumber1

> I'm just saying that Tim is actually very important right now for Stephanie to be used in a story at all. With how important Tim is to DC's current plans DC will be forced to consider giving Stephanie a role or die trying.


I think that a lot of less imaginative writers would think that. And I hope that if they want to use Tim, they will use Steph.  :Smile:  (I hope there are writers who would die for Steph  :Wink:  )

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## The Dying Detective

> I think that a lot of less imaginative writers would think that. And I hope that if they want to use Tim, they will use Steph.  (I hope there are writers who would die for Steph  )


Get where you are coming from  but if writers have a reason or allowed to ignore Stephanie she won't get much exposure or development which she really needs right now. Well aside from Tynion and Seeley who else is there? Bryan Hill?

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## millernumber1

> Get where you are coming from  but if writers have a reason or allowed to ignore Stephanie she won't get much exposure or development which she really needs right now. Well aside from Tynion and Seeley who else is there? Bryan Hill?


We'll have to wait and see. Hill seems like he likes Steph, but she doesn't seem that high on his radar (I keep bringing it up on twitter so hopefully she'll get a mention).

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## The Dying Detective

> We'll have to wait and see. Hill seems like he likes Steph, but she doesn't seem that high on his radar (I keep bringing it up on twitter so hopefully she'll get a mention).


Given how Stephanie is sort of essential to Cass's story it would be criminal to not include her maybe as a flashback or she leaves Tim just so she can look in on Cass and see how she is doing under Barbara's tutelage.

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## millernumber1

> Given how Stephanie is sort of essential to Cass's story it would be criminal to not include her maybe as a flashback or she leaves Tim just so she can look in on Cass and see how she is doing under Barbara's tutelage.


I tend to agree, though as I posted several pages ago, I think the Steph and Cass friendship is not a unified line of great friendship, but had serious ups and downs, and kind of ended (in Batgirl #38) on a down note without ever being reconciled in a real way, though some elements of healing were shown. But in current continuity, unfortunately, much as I like Harper Row as a character, Steph's role in Cass's life has largely been usurped by Harper, and it's one of my enduring frustrations with what Tynion did with the two Eternal series. He pulled it way back in Detective, but there were still hints that it was there in 950. That, unfortunately, undermines what should be Steph's place in the DC universe, the network of relationships. Even if there is precendent in the previous canon for it being undermined, I think it's pretty tragic.

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## The Dying Detective

> I tend to agree, though as I posted several pages ago, I think the Steph and Cass friendship is not a unified line of great friendship, but had serious ups and downs, and kind of ended (in Batgirl #38) on a down note without ever being reconciled in a real way, though some elements of healing were shown. But in current continuity, unfortunately, much as I like Harper Row as a character, Steph's role in Cass's life has largely been usurped by Harper, and it's one of my enduring frustrations with what Tynion did with the two Eternal series. He pulled it way back in Detective, but there were still hints that it was there in 950. That, unfortunately, undermines what should be Steph's place in the DC universe, the network of relationships. Even if there is precendent in the previous canon for it being undermined, I think it's pretty tragic.


I would say considering how Harper Row fell off the radar after the Anarky arc I doubt she will usurp Stephanie's position as Cass's best friend for much longer. I don't think even Tynion really knows what to even do with Harper Row unless of course she is the character he's taking with him. But if she is I say it makes enough room for Stephanie to re-establish her friendship with Cass. So it should work out hopefully.

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## millernumber1

> I would say considering how Harper Row fell off the radar after the Anarky arc I doubt she will usurp Stephanie's position as Cass's best friend for much longer. I don't think even Tynion really knows what to even do with Harper Row unless of course she is the character he's taking with him. But if she is I say it makes enough room for Stephanie to re-establish her friendship with Cass. So it should work out hopefully.


It really depends on who writes them - as with everything. It's sadly clear that no-one really knew what to do with Harper, even though I think she could have been a nice member of Team Batgirl or a supporting member of Birds of Prey.

I also have hope. But we need a landing book for Steph for any of these plans to come to fruition.  :Frown:

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## The Dying Detective

> It really depends on who writes them - as with everything. It's sadly clear that no-one really knew what to do with Harper, even though I think she could have been a nice member of Team Batgirl or a supporting member of Birds of Prey.
> 
> I also have hope. But we need a landing book for Steph for any of these plans to come to fruition.


Well how do you think Harper could have fitted in as member of the Batgirls or the Birds of Prey? All the more reason to hope that the plans for Tim involve Young Justice as part of an attempt at corporate synergy and to tie Tim more closely to the missing years story which should allow Stephanie to be able to have place to call home at least.

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## millernumber1

> Well how do you think Harper could have fitted in as member of the Batgirls or the Birds of Prey? All the more reason to hope that the plans for Tim involve Young Justice as part of an attempt at corporate synergy and to tie Tim more closely to the missing years story which should allow Stephanie to be able to have place to call home at least.


She's an electrical engineer - she could help setting up bases, gear forging, gadget creation, plus being a solid backup. And post-retirement as Bluebird, she could be like Leslie - creating stronger communities for the Birds to support through fighting crime.

I am still pretty skeptical of Young Justice existing as a title at all. But if it happens, and it has Steph, I'll be there!

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## The Dying Detective

> She's an electrical engineer - she could help setting up bases, gear forging, gadget creation, plus being a solid backup. And post-retirement as Bluebird, she could be like Leslie - creating stronger communities for the Birds to support through fighting crime.
> 
> I am still pretty skeptical of Young Justice existing as a title at all. But if it happens, and it has Steph, I'll be there!


Basically Harper could be the Q of the Batgirls huh? Well those do sound like they should have been implemented by DC instead of Gus who was sadly boring. I mean it's got to be happening with Super Sons of Tomorrow confirming that the founding members apart from Tim exist in some capacity and Conner was mentioned by the Future Tim that alone should raise some questions. While Tynion may say that the Future Tim's timeline is not future of the main DC universe that's actually the current Batman Beyond future. For them to even appear means they exist in some capacity. Since Hypertime works like the branches of single tree.

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## millernumber1

> Basically Harper could be the Q of the Batgirls huh? Well those do sound like they should have been implemented by DC instead of Gus who was sadly boring. I mean it's got to be happening with Super Sons of Tomorrow confirming that the founding members apart from Tim exist in some capacity and Conner was mentioned by the Future Tim that alone should raise some questions. While Tynion may say that the Future Tim's timeline is not future of the main DC universe that's actually the current Batman Beyond future. For them to even appear means they exist in some capacity. Since Hypertime works like the branches of single tree.


Awww. I didn't hate Gus, even if I think his problems tended to be resolved through appeals to sympathy rather than redemption (the "woobification" argument).

I think ALL future stories are AU. They may provide writers with a sort of map towards which they build, but there's no future which is set in stone. Because new writers and editors come in all the time and change the future.  :Smile: 

So the best thing to do about the future is live like Steph - in hope.  :Wink:

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## The Dying Detective

> Awww. I didn't hate Gus, even if I think his problems tended to be resolved through appeals to sympathy rather than redemption (the "woobification" argument).
> 
> I think ALL future stories are AU. They may provide writers with a sort of map towards which they build, but there's no future which is set in stone. Because new writers and editors come in all the time and change the future. 
> 
> So the best thing to do about the future is live like Steph - in hope.


Depends on your idea of redemption still at least he died as heroic as possible. Well I think that was the point of Hypertime to allow writers to subtract or add anything they want so that they can have more freedom to write what they want. It's really what Alan Moore proposed in his Twilight of the Superheroes story. Wise words to live by.

----------


## adrikito

5 ROBINS:

https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573

DC 5 Robins Damian Wayne Stephanie Brown Jason Todd Dick Grayson Tim.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> 5 ROBINS:
> 
> https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573
> 
> DC 5 Robins Damian Wayne Stephanie Brown Jason Todd Dick Grayson Tim.jpg


Awesome! And thanks for including the source - now I can reblog it to my Steph fan art collection!  :Smile: 

It's always wonderful to see Steph being included, as she deserves, with the Robins.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> 5 ROBINS:
> 
> https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573
> 
> DC 5 Robins Damian Wayne Stephanie Brown Jason Todd Dick Grayson Tim.jpg


Stephanie's kind of hard to make out.

----------


## millernumber1

> Stephanie's kind of hard to make out.


It's going to be inked, so that should make it better.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's going to be inked, so that should make it better.


Hope the artist presents an inked version.

----------


## Frontier

> 5 ROBINS:
> 
> https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573
> 
> Attachment 67058


Reminds me of that production art for the non-produced No Man's Land cartoon.

----------


## millernumber1

> Reminds me of that production art for the non-produced No Man's Land cartoon.


What was that?

----------


## Frontier

> What was that?


Before _Beware the Batman_ became a thing WB was developing concepts for other Batman cartoons. 

One was based on No Man's Land:

----------


## Assam

That's partially accurate. Originally the show was being developed in the mid-2000's, but they went with Brave and the Bold instead because they thought the show was too dark. Then they tried to get it made again, but it was once again passed over in favor of Beware the Batman. 

And yes, I _will_ forever be bitter that this show which could have been the break Cass needed was passed over twice.

----------


## Frontier

> That's partially accurate. Originally the show was being developed in the mid-2000's, but they went with Brave and the Bold instead because they thought the show was too dark. Then they tried to get it made again, but it was once again passed over in favor of Beware the Batman. 
> 
> And yes, I _will_ forever be bitter that this show which could have been the break Cass needed was passed over twice.


I forgot about it being talked about back during the _Brave and the Bold_ days.

Personally I think she probably would have turned up in _Beware the Batman_ had it not got been one of the victims of CN being where good action cartoons go to die.

----------


## millernumber1

> Before _Beware the Batman_ became a thing WB was developing concepts for other Batman cartoons. 
> 
> One was based on No Man's Land:


That looks really cool!

I do have a really soft spot in my heart for Brave and the Bold because of the Calling All Robin issue of the tie-in comic. It came at a time when Steph fans were really in need of it.

All New Batman - Brave & The Bold #13 pg31.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Before _Beware the Batman_ became a thing WB was developing concepts for other Batman cartoons. 
> 
> One was based on No Man's Land:


That character with batarangs... Made me think in Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> That character with batarangs... Made me think in Cass.


I'm pretty sure it is Cass, since No Man's Land was her introductory story. Additionally, sadly, Steph was sidelined from action during NML, because of her pregnancy and recovery.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm pretty sure it is Cass, since No Man's Land was her introductory story. Additionally, sadly, Steph was sidelined from action during NML, because of her pregnancy and recovery.


Since it was a kids show maybe they could skip over Stephanie's pregnancy and just include her? If this show had been green lit.

----------


## millernumber1

> Since it was a kids show maybe they could skip over Stephanie's pregnancy and just include her? If this show had been green lit.


I mean, counterfactuals are always kinda dead-endy. But I doubt it, since they already had two girls, and that's clearly enough (/sarcasm).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, counterfactuals are always kinda dead-endy. But I doubt it, since they already had two girls, and that's clearly enough (/sarcasm).


Well too bad we'll never know huh? But if the pregnancy had not been included and Stephanie was allowed to participate in No Man's Land what role could she have had?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well too bad we'll never know huh? But if the pregnancy had not been included and Stephanie was allowed to participate in No Man's Land what role could she have had?


I shudder to think. Maybe they'd put her in Helena's role, and she'd be the "fake Batgirl". And get shot a lot by the Joker. Hmmm. Maybe she was better sitting it out...ugh.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I shudder to think. Maybe they'd put her in Helena's role, and she'd be the "fake Batgirl". And get shot a lot by the Joker. Hmmm. Maybe she was better sitting it out...ugh.


Well that sounds like Stephanie was better off out of action for the duration of No Man's Land. Shame really though she could participate in any attempt to help the needy people of Gotham somehow mayb help Leslie Thompkins.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well that sounds like Stephanie was better off out of action for the duration of No Man's Land. Shame really though she could participate in any attempt to help the needy people of Gotham somehow mayb help Leslie Thompkins.


Leslie had several great stories in NML, often involving Huntress, so maybe. But the whole of NML was pretty dark. I'm sure that's part of why they had difficulty making a kids show about it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Leslie had several great stories in NML, often involving Huntress, so maybe. But the whole of NML was pretty dark. I'm sure that's part of why they had difficulty making a kids show about it.


No Man's Land probably fits better on the Gotham show than a kids TV  and this concept could fit on a Netflix or even DC's upcoming streaming service.

----------


## juffuj5

How would you guys do if you were given the greenlight from DC to write a Spoiler solo title? I'll have a Year One-esque storyline and give her an expanded origin, that retcons her to KNOWING her dad was Cluemaster, her having to deal with it, her first encounter with Batman when he fought Cluemaster in her house, her first team up with Tim Drake, and a proto-Spoiler. I also have an idea for a story where she is held up in a convenient store robbery, injured, and is outnumbered with police surrounding them, trying to find a way to escape. I'll also have Cassandra Cain and Tim Drake appear now and then (Cass will appear more often), her trying to find her mother who left in Batman Eternal. It'll also feature characters from her era as Batgirl, such as Nell Little who Steph would mentor, villains such as Harmony, Slipstream, and also that group from New 52 Batgirl known as Gladius, who would be sort of the main villains of the run, since Steph was part of Bab's team to take them down. And, Cluemaster would be resurrected by them via Lazarus Pit, becoming a more capable villain and remembers Batman's identity. I'll also have a Spiderverse-style storyline with different versions of Stephanie team up to stop another group of Stephanies from trying to kill someone (I'm not sure who yet).

----------


## millernumber1

> How would you guys do if you were given the greenlight from DC to write a Spoiler solo title? I'll have a Year One-esque storyline and give her an expanded origin, that retcons her to KNOWING her dad was Cluemaster, her having to deal with it, her first encounter with Batman when he fought Cluemaster in her house, her first team up with Tim Drake, and a proto-Spoiler. I also have an idea for a story where she is held up in a convenient store robbery, injured, and is outnumbered with police surrounding them, trying to find a way to escape. I'll also have Cassandra Cain and Tim Drake appear now and then (Cass will appear more often), her trying to find her mother who left in Batman Eternal. It'll also feature characters from her era as Batgirl, such as Nell Little who Steph would mentor, villains such as Harmony, Slipstream, and also that group from New 52 Batgirl known as Gladius, who would be sort of the main villains of the run, since Steph was part of Bab's team to take them down. And, Cluemaster would be resurrected by them via Lazarus Pit, becoming a more capable villain and remembers Batman's identity. I'll also have a Spiderverse-style storyline with different versions of Stephanie team up to stop another group of Stephanies from trying to kill someone (I'm not sure who yet).


Interesting! I'd be completely in favor of a Spoiler: Year One story. When would you have her find out her dad was Cluemaster? And what is your idea of a proto-Spoiler? First team-up with Tim is desperately needed in current continuity - showing that relationship's development from their first meeting.  :Smile:  I'd love to see Cass appear as well, maybe make it a buddy road trip to find BOTH of their mothers. Finding Nell again - big fan! (Though I hope she's more an everygirl like Steph used to be - I'd also hope that Steph went back to being more of an everygirl, and not a supergenius like Steph sometimes is now, and Tiffany Fox was in Future's End and Batwing.)

The idea of multiple versions of Steph teaming up are pretty great! I was pitching the idea of trying to get BQM back to write an Annual for the current run, where Steph, Cass, and Babs all get sucked back in time to team up with Lady Blackhawk and the other Blackhawks, and that sounds kinda similar, too (as well as the Calling All Robins story from Brave and the Bold). But why would there be evil Stephanies?

----------


## juffuj5

It'll be nothing dramatic, but Arthur would gloat to Steph and Crystal that he's going to make it big, probably already in costume. As for proto-Spoiler, I want to show that the Brown family is infamous because of her dad, and Steph gets bullied over it. She makes a costume just to scare off her bullies at night, but makes sure that no one can trace her, it'll also fill in the gap in Batman Eternal that she suddenly has a costume, but a crappy version of it. Steph's "super genius" status would be toned down, she's good with tech, but not Tim leveled.

----------


## millernumber1

> It'll be nothing dramatic, but Arthur would gloat to Steph and Crystal that he's going to make it big, probably already in costume. As for proto-Spoiler, I want to show that the Brown family is infamous because of her dad, and Steph gets bullied over it. She makes a costume just to scare off her bullies at night, but makes sure that no one can trace her, it'll also fill in the gap in Batman Eternal that she suddenly has a costume, but a crappy version of it. Steph's "super genius" status would be toned down, she's good with tech, but not Tim leveled.


Interesting. That sounds like some fun ideas! (I would actually try to level Tim down a bit, too. Super geniuses are less interesting in general  :Smile:  ).

I say we hire you and go from there  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

Wellcome to CBR *juffuj5*, I saw you recently mentioning Steph.. I want her return too..

Unfortunatelly, Young Justice Outsiders has no started yet.

----------


## The Dying Detective

So anyone hoping DC will reprint Stephanie's adventures as Batgirl in their new Walmart exclusive initiative? They are already printing Geoff Johns Teen Titans run Post-Crisis so why not huh?

----------


## millernumber1

> So anyone hoping DC will reprint Stephanie's adventures as Batgirl in their new Walmart exclusive initiative? They are already printing Geoff Johns Teen Titans run Post-Crisis so why not huh?


Well, part of me hopes that we'll get to #13, so we'll get Steph as Robin in this series (even though I do not at all plan to buy Teen Titans, I would buy the heck out of that issue!), but I think even that is unlikely. Probably just the first arc, then switch to another arc.

As for the idea of Steph's Batgirl run showing in in one of the Giants? I'd say it's much more likely to show up in Batman (which is reprinting Nightwing) than in Teen Titans, since none of the Batgirls have been major characters in any of the Teen Titans runs, that I'm aware of.

I personally think we deserve a Batgirl Giant series - Tim Seeley writing a new Batgirl story (though it might also be Steve Orlando, which I would be sad about, but he's a perfectly decent writer), and then reprinting Batgirl Year One, Birds of Prey, Cass's Batgirl run, and Steph's Batgirl run.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, part of me hopes that we'll get to #13, so we'll get Steph as Robin in this series (even though I do not at all plan to buy Teen Titans, I would buy the heck out of that issue!), but I think even that is unlikely. Probably just the first arc, then switch to another arc.
> 
> As for the idea of Steph's Batgirl run showing in in one of the Giants? I'd say it's much more likely to show up in Batman (which is reprinting Nightwing) than in Teen Titans, since none of the Batgirls have been major characters in any of the Teen Titans runs, that I'm aware of.
> 
> I personally think we deserve a Batgirl Giant series - Tim Seeley writing a new Batgirl story (though it might also be Steve Orlando, which I would be sad about, but he's a perfectly decent writer), and then reprinting Batgirl Year One, Birds of Prey, Cass's Batgirl run, and Steph's Batgirl run.


You're probably right it would make more sense for both Cass and Stephanie's Batgirl runs and Birds of Prey to be reprinted in Batman really I mean they were some of DC's most successful runs in Post-Crisis it would foolish for them to not do it. With so many Batfamily members being hot property DC will need to get that Batgirl Giant Size series out just to keep up with the demand if it works and hopefully it does.

----------


## millernumber1

> You're probably right it would make more sense for both Cass and Stephanie's Batgirl runs and Birds of Prey to be reprinted in Batman really I mean they were some of DC's most successful runs in Post-Crisis it would foolish for them to not do it. With so many Batfamily members being hot property DC will need to get that Batgirl Giant Size series out just to keep up with the demand if it works and hopefully it does.


I mean, realistically, if you look at Babs's sales since she took over, and even Steph's sales, she's a steady but bottom of the top 100 seller. That's not the kind of title we're going to get a Giant out of - even if you could argue that a new market like Walmart wouldn't have the same gender-limiters that dominate the direct market.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, realistically, if you look at Babs's sales since she took over, and even Steph's sales, she's a steady but bottom of the top 100 seller. That's not the kind of title we're going to get a Giant out of - even if you could argue that a new market like Walmart wouldn't have the same gender-limiters that dominate the direct market.


Well there is the other option of not putting Barbara at the front and centre of the series use the Birds of Prey it was more interesting than the main Batgirl series regardless of that weird Manslaughter story that stopped making sense after the it first started and had weird political undertones.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well there is the other option of not putting Barbara at the front and centre of the series use the Birds of Prey it was more interesting than the main Batgirl series regardless of that weird Manslaughter story that stopped making sense after the it first started and had weird political undertones.


Aww, I liked Manslaughter. And not just because it had Steph in it! I thought it was a good call to reject extremism on all sides. Similar to the Red Hood vs. Anarky book this week.  :Smile: 

But I think Steph showing up in one of these Wal-Mart books would be ideal. I just don't know that it's likely to happen, given what we're seeing so far. If Teen Titans Giant lasts for 13 issues, we could get John's #13, which has Steph as Robin, but...we'll have to wait and see.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Aww, I liked Manslaughter. And not just because it had Steph in it! I thought it was a good call to reject extremism on all sides. Similar to the Red Hood vs. Anarky book this week. 
> 
> But I think Steph showing up in one of these Wal-Mart books would be ideal. I just don't know that it's likely to happen, given what we're seeing so far. If Teen Titans Giant lasts for 13 issues, we could get John's #13, which has Steph as Robin, but...we'll have to wait and see.


I suppose though it had to slip this weird idea that the virus was not acting politically correct but I've seen worse political messages. I mean the point of these Giant Size Walmart stories is to get the kids while they still can and it's very easy to do it. Too bad it will take a year before it can hit issue 13. Still if people see that stuff and enjoy it will sell out it really seems like DC wants to make sure their stuff is seen on all aspects of the business market. And maybe kids especially young girls will start sending letters to DC telling them to give them more Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> I suppose though it had to slip this weird idea that the virus was not acting politically correct but I've seen worse political messages. I mean the point of these Giant Size Walmart stories is to get the kids while they still can and it's very easy to do it. Too bad it will take a year before it can hit issue 13. Still if people see that stuff and enjoy it will sell out it really seems like DC wants to make sure their stuff is seen on all aspects of the business market. And maybe kids especially young girls will start sending letters to DC telling them to give them more Stephanie.


I mean, it's basically a reversal of the plot of the great Detective Comics Annual #1, by Dennis O'Neil and art by the master Klaus Janson, where the Penguin buys a biological weapon that only attacks women, and Talia takes a shot of it to protect Batman (illogically, since it wouldn't have hurt him), and he saves her by having testosterone injected. So I appreciated that. Plus I liked the idea of rejecting hatred of men or women.

Yes, the Walmart Giant digests are definitely to get kids interested (so I hope they don't put War Games in there  :Smile:  ). I'm definitely getting some of them, at least to start with! It would be amazing if we got a bunch of fans telling the writers and artists they want to see more Steph at conventions and by twitter and email.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, it's basically a reversal of the plot of the great Detective Comics Annual #1, by Dennis O'Neil and art by the master Klaus Janson, where the Penguin buys a biological weapon that only attacks women, and Talia takes a shot of it to protect Batman (illogically, since it wouldn't have hurt him), and he saves her by having testosterone injected. So I appreciated that. Plus I liked the idea of rejecting hatred of men or women.
> 
> Yes, the Walmart Giant digests are definitely to get kids interested (so I hope they don't put War Games in there  ). I'm definitely getting some of them, at least to start with! It would be amazing if we got a bunch of fans telling the writers and artists they want to see more Steph at conventions and by twitter and email.


Really? I was getting the same vibe from that Fury arc from Justice League from Manslaughter. At least the story was against gender hatred in general though I found it awkward that Lois Lane's priority was setting back feminism when there were bigger things at stake like faltering birth rates and insufficient manpower. War Games was a pretty polarising story anyway i doubt DC would be stupid enough to reprint ti and I don't think there's a huge demand for it to be reprinted thanks to the graphic violence and terribly poorly conceived plot. Put that out and kids won't want to read it. If such a great deal of demand for Stephanie comes out even Dan Didio can't ignore it forever despite his weird dislike of Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> Really? I was getting the same vibe from that Fury arc from Justice League from Manslaughter. At least the story was against gender hatred in general though I found it awkward that Lois Lane's priority was setting back feminism when there were bigger things at stake like faltering birth rates and insufficient manpower. War Games was a pretty polarising story anyway i doubt DC would be stupid enough to reprint ti and I don't think there's a huge demand for it to be reprinted thanks to the graphic violence and terribly poorly conceived plot. Put that out and kids won't want to read it. If such a great deal of demand for Stephanie comes out even Dan Didio can't ignore it forever despite his weird dislike of Stephanie.


I mean, sadly, a big truth of polarizing stories is that they do get sales. The problem is they are cannibalizing sales from the future - people buy this, and are so turned off by Steph's torture and death that they leave comics. So I don't think DC's really learned anything.

Bring up the demand! Tweet your comics writers!  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean, sadly, a big truth of polarizing stories is that they do get sales. The problem is they are cannibalizing sales from the future - people buy this, and are so turned off by Steph's torture and death that they leave comics. So I don't think DC's really learned anything.
> 
> Bring up the demand! Tweet your comics writers!


I will never understand what makes good literature these days. What do you mean by cannibalising sales? Sure spread the word why not huh?

----------


## millernumber1

> I will never understand what makes good literature these days. What do you mean by cannibalising sales? Sure spread the word why not huh?


You eat the sales of the future by getting people who might be interested in comics starring characters who are wrecked by the current "shocking" status quo. So people who wanted to buy future Steph comics are like, "No, she's dead" or "No, even if she comes back, she started a gang war" (both of these I've have seen happen).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You eat the sales of the future by getting people who might be interested in comics starring characters who are wrecked by the current "shocking" status quo. So people who wanted to buy future Steph comics are like, "No, she's dead" or "No, even if she comes back, she started a gang war" (both of these I've have seen happen).


I see that's sad if only DC would stop reprinting War Games still if DC wants to win over kids with this initiative they shouldn't reprint War Games in these Giant size series. It'll be on their heads if they do that they should just reprint Stephanie's Batgirl run it's safe enough.

----------


## millernumber1

> I see that's sad if only DC would stop reprinting War Games still if DC wants to win over kids with this initiative they shouldn't reprint War Games in these Giant size series. It'll be on their heads if they do that they should just reprint Stephanie's Batgirl run it's safe enough.


Yup. I think Steph's run, Cass's first few arcs, and Batgirl Year One would be perfect for this kind of reprint program. And Birds of Prey, natch.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yup. I think Steph's run, Cass's first few arcs, and Batgirl Year One would be perfect for this kind of reprint program. And Birds of Prey, natch.


So best hope and maybe push for DC to reprint those in the Walmart initiative.

----------


## millernumber1

> So best hope and maybe push for DC to reprint those in the Walmart initiative.


Eh. We'll have to see what it looks like in a weekish! I have put it on my calendar.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Eh. We'll have to see what it looks like in a weekish! I have put it on my calendar.


Well at least you can get them anytime you want Walmart hasn't set up shop here in my country.

----------


## millernumber1

Heh. I like to see Steph's face as part of the lead image in this SDCC panel announcement article: https://www.newsarama.com/40539-wbtv...l-details.html

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Heh. I like to see Steph's face as part of the lead image in this SDCC panel announcement article: https://www.newsarama.com/40539-wbtv...l-details.html


That is a shocker considering how little interest a lot people have in Stephanie outside of the comics crowd. Still it is nice in a weird way.

----------


## millernumber1

> That is a shocker considering how little interest a lot people have in Stephanie outside of the comics crowd. Still it is nice in a weird way.


See, I think that lack of interest is PURELY because they don't know about her, not because they dislike her. That's why I like it.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> See, I think that lack of interest is PURELY because they don't know about her, not because they dislike her. That's why I like it.


Well Young Justice will probably be the gate way to making more people Stephanie Brown fans if Weisman has learned from his mistake of over stuffing the cast in Season 2. And I am guessing that he will have broken up Tim and Cassie off screen just like he did with Dick and Zatana so that Stephanie and Tim can be together.

----------


## adrikito

> Heh. I like to see Steph's face as part of the lead image in this SDCC panel announcement article: https://www.newsarama.com/40539-wbtv...l-details.html


I like that too.

----------


## Rac7d*

is tim taking her to the wedding

----------


## millernumber1

> is tim taking her to the wedding


Only Tom King knows!  :Smile:

----------


## juffuj5

I hope that Steph in young Justice isn't a background character, or is there to be just a love interest for Tim or revolve around Tim all the time.

----------


## millernumber1

> I hope that Steph in young Justice isn't a background character, or is there to be just a love interest for Tim or revolve around Tim all the time.


I think all Steph fans at least will agree that Steph deserves better than being a background character!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think all Steph fans at least will agree that Steph deserves better than being a background character!


The only way it would work is if Weisman mines Stephanie's vast and interesting history from the time she met Tim to becoming Spoiler then Robin and finally Batgirl there should be no way he can't do it. But with the way Weisman keeps doing time skips instead of building off what came before I don't see this working out.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I hope that Steph in young Justice isn't a background character, or is there to be just a love interest for Tim or revolve around Tim all the time.


there are like 14 members how is gonna make herself standout with so many others

----------


## millernumber1

> there are like 14 members how is gonna make herself standout with so many others


Gooperangs! A utility belt full of crap and a positive outlook! Quips!  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Gooperangs! A utility belt full of crap and a positive outlook! Quips!


honestly i expect a b plot in one episode just like wonder girl
mabey  a girl power episode

----------


## millernumber1

> honestly i expect a b plot in one episode just like wonder girl
> mabey  a girl power episode


I think that is realistic, and hopefully will be good!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think that is realistic, and hopefully will be good!


The last time Young Justice did that it failed honestly even though Cassie got the spotlight. There just wasn't that much development for her anyway.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The last time Young Justice did that it failed honestly even though Cassie got the spotlight. There just wasn't that much development for her anyway.


No choice if the true story is devoted to our orginal team plus mabey 2 other contenders 
the actual team that is young jsutice is more for show then to chracters

so she will be there, she will get action but dont put hopes out for a inclusion in a long running storyline

----------


## millernumber1

> No choice if the true story is devoted to our orginal team plus mabey 2 other contenders 
> the actual team that is young jsutice is more for show then to chracters
> 
> so she will be there, she will get action but dont put hopes out for a inclusion in a long running storyline


I always have hope, just like Steph.  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No choice if the true story is devoted to our orginal team plus mabey 2 other contenders 
> the actual team that is young jsutice is more for show then to chracters
> 
> so she will be there, she will get action but dont put hopes out for a inclusion in a long running storyline


It's nice to dream.

----------


## millernumber1

New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
YJ3 screenshot.jpg

----------


## juffuj5

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> YJ3 screenshot.jpg


I'm excited, and scared (You already know why)!

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm excited, and scared (You already know why)!


Same, but she's there! Front and, well, not center, but to the right!  :Smile:

----------


## Celgress

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> YJ3 screenshot.jpg


I can hardly wait for the renewal of this show. IMO, it was the best young superhero TV series since the original Teen Titans. In certain ways, Young Justice was even better than Teen Titans. A bold statement I know, but the show more than deserves the high praise what with its multifaceted character portrayals and engaging storylines.

----------


## adrikito

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> Attachment 67600


steph. in the animated world.. I saw this few second ago in newsarama.

----------


## adrikito

talking about newsarama.. STEPH.. We should wait to 2019 for see you again.  :Frown:  

https://www.newsarama.com/40596-youn...s-delayed.html

*DC has not given a reason for the change in schedule.* 

*DC FAULT.*  :Mad:  I hope that they are trying to make one YJ comic(with Steph here, of course)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> Attachment 67600


And in between Tim with his possible ex-girlfriend too assuming Weisman really cared for it.

----------


## millernumber1

> talking about newsarama.. STEPH.. We should wait to 2019 for see you again.  
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40596-youn...s-delayed.html
> 
> *DC has not given a reason for the change in schedule.* 
> 
> *DC FAULT.*  I hope that they are trying to make one YJ comic(with Steph here, of course)


Yeah, not super happy, but also not super surprised. I wish they would be more up front with their production process and such.

I also hope there's a YJ comic! Though I personally am hoping for a tie-in to the show, not a main universe comic. Because Steph has never been a member of YJ in the main universe.  :Smile: 




> And in between Tim with his possible ex-girlfriend too assuming Weisman really cared for it.


Well, Robin is wearing a hood, so I'm not sure it's Tim, actually!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, Robin is wearing a hood, so I'm not sure it's Tim, actually!


I don't know based on what I saw I assumed it was Tim because of how many of the old characters in Season 2 didn't get development I figured they would just put those who were well-liked onto this roster. I admit I did wonder whether it was Damian but I think it has been confirmed it's not the case.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know based on what I saw I assumed it was Tim because of how many of the old characters in Season 2 didn't get development I figured they would just put those who were well-liked onto this roster. I admit I did wonder whether it was Damian but I think it has been confirmed it's not the case.


Has it been confirmed? I would be thrilled, honestly, either way. I like the Steph and Damian dynamic as well as the Tim and Steph dynamic. And I hope to see some Steph and Babs dynamic!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Has it been confirmed? I would be thrilled, honestly, either way. I like the Steph and Damian dynamic as well as the Tim and Steph dynamic. And I hope to see some Steph and Babs dynamic!


If Tim appeared right away as Red Robin I think  people might feel he didn't earn it especially when he didn't get any development at all. Nonetheless it is an interesting idea, I liked the dynamic they had in the their team-up and maybe we could see Damian act out his crush on Stephanie more properly only for her to reject him in favour of Tim. If Barbara's Oracle here i think we can see it sadly thanks to delay there is no way to see it unless she is mission control. Also actually I'm not sure whether it has been confirmed I'm just guessing based on the past failure of Season 2 develop the new characters.

----------


## millernumber1

> If Tim appeared right away as Red Robin I think  people might feel he didn't earn it especially when he didn't get any development at all. Nonetheless it is an interesting idea, I liked the dynamic they had in the their team-up and maybe we could see Damian act out his crush on Stephanie more properly only for her to reject him in favour of Tim. If Barbara's Oracle here i think we can see it sadly thanks to delay there is no way to see it unless she is mission control. Also actually I'm not sure whether it has been confirmed I'm just guessing based on the past failure of Season 2 develop the new characters.


DOUBLE TRIANGLE! Cassie-Tim-Steph and Tim-Steph-Damian!  :Wink: 

We shall see, indeed! I don't see Babs being Oracle, but that could just be my distrust of DC execs.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> DOUBLE TRIANGLE! Cassie-Tim-Steph and Tim-Steph-Damian! 
> 
> We shall see, indeed! I don't see Babs being Oracle, but that could just be my distrust of DC execs.


That is going to turn Young Justice into an even bigger soap opera story than Spectacular Spider-Man. Well it has been years and Weisman seems to have full creative control over everything so he could make Barbara Oracle he had everything at his disposal from the beginning except for Donna Troy. He could have full liberty on whether or not to make Barbara Oracle.

----------


## Frontier

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> Attachment 67600


She looks the most stern out of everybody there...

Her mask here kind of reminds me of New 52 Cluemaster's mask.

----------


## millernumber1

> She looks the most stern out of everybody there...
> 
> Her mask here kind of reminds me of New 52 Cluemaster's mask.


I mean, her own N52 mask (when drawn by Andy Clark in Batman Eternal #24) was very similar to her father's. Additionally, seeing just the eyes I think is what makes her look so stern.  :Smile:

----------


## Sannom

> New screenshot of Steph in YJ season 3 - right next to Robin!
> Attachment 67600


This shot, with Tim (that is Tim, I believe, if I remember right he already had a hood in the season 2) in-between his YJ girlfriend and one of his comics girlfriends, kind of makes me apprehensive. No big triangle, please!

----------


## millernumber1

> This shot, with Tim (that is Tim, I believe, if I remember right he already had a hood in the season 2) in-between his YJ girlfriend and one of his comics girlfriends, kind of makes me apprehensive. No big triangle, please!


Agreed. I mean, I think they can do a triangle reasonably well - that's what they did with Megan and Kon and Lagann in season 2 - but that wasn't my favorite part of the season, and I generally don't like triangles. Unless it's Steph, Tim, and another guy.  :Smile:

----------


## Sannom

Would the other guy be for Steph, Tim or both?




> For Stephanie.


Please don't put words in the mouth of your fellow posters. Thank you.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Would the other guy be for Steph, Tim or both?


For Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> Would the other guy be for Steph, Tim or both?


Well, I was implying that Steph would be the center of the triangle, with both guys interested in her.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, I was implying that Steph would be the center of the triangle, with both guys interested in her.


And who would be the other guy Nick Gage or Damian if he was old enough.

----------


## millernumber1

> And who would be the other guy Nick Gage or Damian if he was old enough.


The random baby daddy guy! (Just kidding.) I don't know - I originally was thinking Tim and Damian, but since Damian's probably not going to be in it, maybe Jaime?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The random baby daddy guy! (Just kidding.) I don't know - I originally was thinking Tim and Damian, but since Damian's probably not going to be in it, maybe Jaime?


Well maybe in the next season since this appears to be a redemption one for the fan favourites. I think they are going to pair Jaime with Traci 13 just like they did in Post-Crisis.

----------


## juffuj5

> Well maybe in the next season since this appears to be a redemption one for the fan favourites. I think they are going to pair Jaime with Traci 13 just like they did in Post-Crisis.


Given that BluePulse is a very popular ship and that Greg Weismen said there was always LGBT characters in Young  Justice but were held back, i have a feeling bart and jaime might get together

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Given that BluePulse is a very popular ship and that Greg Weismen said there was always LGBT characters in Young  Justice but were held back, i have a feeling bart and jaime might get together


Sure if that's what you want.

----------


## juffuj5

> Sure if that's what you want.


You never know! But I think Traci might be paired up with Jaime since they already had a relationship before Flashpoint

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You never know! But I think Traci might be paired up with Jaime since they already had a relationship before Flashpoint


Yeah if they want it to be more like Flashpoint.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well maybe in the next season since this appears to be a redemption one for the fan favourites. I think they are going to pair Jaime with Traci 13 just like they did in Post-Crisis.


ANYWAY, besides Tim, who do you think Steph should hang out with in Young Justice?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> ANYWAY, besides Tim, who do you think Steph should hang out with in Young Justice?


Well we could give Bart Allen a go and maybe the original characters like Conner, Artemis, and if Weisman can do it at last Donna Troy.

----------


## juffuj5

> ANYWAY, besides Tim, who do you think Steph should hang out with in Young Justice?


Anyone else in the team! I also hope that she is Nightwing's mentor

----------


## millernumber1

> Anyone else in the team! I also hope that she is Nightwing's mentor


You mean student?  :Smile:

----------


## juffuj5

> You mean student?


Lol yeah, I hope she gets a lot of screen time and interacts with Nightwing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Lol yeah, I hope she gets a lot of screen time and interacts with Nightwing.


That would be great! I think Dick learned a lot about how to be a good mentor, as we saw is season 2!

----------


## sunofdarkchild

I had an idea for a fanfic a while back where Steph is Robin in Young Justice season 1 instead of Dick.  Cluemaster would of course be part of the Light like Sportsmaster was.

----------


## Celgress

> I had an idea for a fanfic a while back where Steph is Robin in Young Justice season 1 instead of Dick.  Cluemaster would, of course, be part of the Light like Sportsmaster was.


Is it still up? If so, you can either PM me the link or else post the link here. I would love to read your story and give some feedback.

----------


## adrikito

> I had an idea for a fanfic a while back where Steph is Robin in Young Justice season 1 instead of Dick.  Cluemaster would of course be part of the Light like Sportsmaster was.


Good idea.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

> Is it still up? If so, you can either PM me the link or else post the link here. I would love to read your story and give some feedback.


I never wrote it down.  Just had the idea.  Steph would be the only Robin, having started as Spoiler to help Batman take down Cluemaster.  It would eventually be revealed that Batman turned her away and she ended up training with Black Canary before Batman would come around and allow her to be his sidekick.  There'd be a plot where 'Spoiler' would be going around committing crimes and Steph would be trying to keep her former identify a secret from her friends while trying to catch the fake Spoiler.  Having a father as a villain would make her sympathetic to Artemis.  And the team would be joined by the Linda Danvers Supergirl, who would be Steph's best friend but have a testy relationship with Superboy because she had Superman's approval while he didn't.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

You know what?  It's the 4th of July.  Young Justice Episode 1 takes place on the 4th of July.  I'll give it a shot.

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Mr. Freeze slid down the ice ramp he had created, past a family he had frozen in the middle of their Independence Day barbecue.

He took aim at the civilians fleeing the park.

There was a whizzing sound as a sharp object came out of nowhere and knocked his ice-canon away.

Freeze looked at the object now embedded in the ground, a black boomerang with bat-scallops.

"Batman," Freeze said.  "I was wondering when you'd show up."

"Wrong-a-roo," a female voice said.

Freeze looked around for the source of the voice.  A shadow appeared over him, causing him to look up as a pair of boots collided with his helmet, knocking him over.

As he fell to the ground, Freeze saw a figure land in front of him.  She was a teenager with long blonde hair.  Her costume was red and green with a yellow and black cape, and she wore a dark green domino mask.  The 'R' symbol on her chest was unmistakable.

"Ah, the girl wonder," Freeze said dismissively.

"Freeze," Robin responded, taking two more batarangs out of her utility belt.  These batarangs were of a lighter color than the dark one which had been thrown before.  She threw them both at Mr. Freeze.

The left batarang hit the ice canon again.  But instead of knocking the weapon away, the batarang exploded in a a spray of green slime which completely covered the large gun.

The other batarang struck Freeze himself, also enveloping him in the slime.

"Gooperangs," Robin said with a smirk, "gotta love em."

"You'll forgive me if I'm underwhelmed," Freeze said.  The mechanical fingers of his large exosuit dug into the earth as he slowly pushed himself up.

"Yeah, well, I'm only here to slow you down, freeze-brain," Robin retorted.

Freeze struggled to rise despite the goop.  As Robin's words sunk in he looked up again in horror.  Another shadow appeared over him, far larger and more menacing.

He had no chance to react as a black fist collided with his face.

----------


## Celgress

Solid start with a nice action scene. I want to see more.

----------


## WonderNight

> Anyone else in the team! I also hope that she is Nightwing's mentor


It's pretty obvious that nightwing's her mentor at this point just like artemis is arrowette mentor, so I believe she will get soild screen time because of it. Also I believe that spoiler and arrowette are going to be BFF's like dick and wally, I've just get a feeling.

----------


## millernumber1

> I never wrote it down.  Just had the idea.  Steph would be the only Robin, having started as Spoiler to help Batman take down Cluemaster.  It would eventually be revealed that Batman turned her away and she ended up training with Black Canary before Batman would come around and allow her to be his sidekick.  There'd be a plot where 'Spoiler' would be going around committing crimes and Steph would be trying to keep her former identify a secret from her friends while trying to catch the fake Spoiler.  Having a father as a villain would make her sympathetic to Artemis.  And the team would be joined by the Linda Danvers Supergirl, who would be Steph's best friend but have a testy relationship with Superboy because she had Superman's approval while he didn't.


I love it! I recommend posting it to AO3 and linking it! Good way to get reviews!

----------


## sunofdarkchild

Three heroes stood in front of the Hall of Justice, the official headquarters of the Justice League of America in Washington DC.

With them stood their sidekicks, Robin, Aqualad, and Speedy.

Batman smiled, a rare sight, as he said "today's the day" in an equally rare pleasant tone.

Robin looked up at her mentor and smiled back.  After everything that had happened between them since she first put on a mask and a cape, for him to bring her here was the most powerful sign of trust he could have given her.

The six spandex-clad heroes felt a burst of wind from behind them.  They turned to see the red and yellow figures of Flash and Kid Flash, the faster man and teenager on Earth.

"Aw man," Kid Flash complained.  "I knew we'd be the last ones here."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A crowd of onlookers cheered and took pictures on their cell phones as the heroes and sidekicks walked towards the Hall of Justice.

Robin spared a nervous glance at Batman.  When she had first met the Dark Knight, he refused to allow any photographs of himself to be taken, and he refused to operate in the day.  Even his membership in the Justice League had been unofficial until recently.

But now he simply stared ahead as if oblivious to all the people and camera flashes around.

Green Arrow leaned forward to speak with his protege, Speedy.  "Ready to see the inner sanctum?"

"Born that way," Speedy replied, his tone betraying his impatience.

Aqualad looked around at his companions.  "I am glad we are all here."

"Have all four sidekicks ever been in the same place at the same time?" Kid Flash asked.

"Don't call us sidekicks," Speedy said angrily.  "Not after today."

"Sorry," Kid Flash said.  "First time at the hall - I'm a little overwhelmed."

The entered the building and stopped.  Before them stood seven enormous gold statues.  Images of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Flash, and Aquaman, the seven founding members of the Justice League, towered over them.

"Overwhelming is right," Robin said as she stared at the larger than life figures.  But even as she stared in awe, a part of her brain noticed that the statue of her mentor was slightly shinier and less worn than the other six, a sign of its relatively late addition following Batman's public acknowledgement of his membership in the organization of the world's greatest heroes.

A door marked 'authorized personnel only opened, revealing Martian Manhunter and Red Tornado.

Martian Manhunter addressed the sidekicks.  "Robin, Speedy, Aqualad, Kid Flash.  Welcome."

----------


## millernumber1

https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/...g7d/?context=3

Kelly Thompson, current writer for Mr. and Mrs. X, got to work with Pere Perez on the prequel to that series, Rogue and Gambit. Perez did such awesome issues of Steph's Batgirl series as #17, the Damian team up, and #24, the finale (sniff sniff). And she thought they were awesome!

----------


## brer rabbit

Has anyone ever read these two fanfic on a what-if story on if Stephanie ever became the Red Hood.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11453411...-Full-of-Blood
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11551793...Full-of-Sorrow

----------


## daningotham

Love Steph, I wish she would get her own book again.  Her Batgirl title is one of my favorites of all time.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLUxFXjf16U

----------


## millernumber1

> Has anyone ever read these two fanfic on a what-if story on if Stephanie ever became the Red Hood.
> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11453411...-Full-of-Blood
> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11551793...Full-of-Sorrow


Those are some of the best Steph fics - I often recommend them! I love how the author manages to create this whole world, capturing the personalities and emotions of the comics, but in a wholly new way.




> Love Steph, I wish she would get her own book again.  Her Batgirl title is one of my favorites of all time.....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLUxFXjf16U


Sad and happy face.

I'd be okay with a Steph solo, a Tim and Steph duo, or a League of Batgirls with Babs, Steph, and Cass.  :Smile:

----------


## daningotham

> Sad and happy face.
> 
> I'd be okay with a Steph solo, a Tim and Steph duo, or a League of Batgirls with Babs, Steph, and Cass.


Totally!  Me too.  Those are all awesome characters.

----------


## AnakinFlair

> Has anyone ever read these two fanfic on a what-if story on if Stephanie ever became the Red Hood.
> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11453411...-Full-of-Blood
> http://www.fanfiction.net/s/11551793...Full-of-Sorrow


Thank you for pointing these out. I ended up reading a lot more of her work and loved every minute of it. "Macushla" and "Misericordia" were incredible 'Stephanie as an assassin trained by Talia' stories.

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you for pointing these out. I ended up reading a lot more of her work and loved every minute of it. "Macushla" and "Misericordia" were incredible 'Stephanie as an assassin trained by Talia' stories.


I really enjoy those as well!

----------


## brer rabbit

I kinda want to see a story center around Pre-Flashpoint Batgirl Stephenie Brown in where she experiences a small scale version of the DC event Zero Hour in which she (and the rest of the Batfamily) meets five alternate versions of herself, working together with some of them or trying to stop some of them. And the versions I would have them meet would be-

A Stephenie Brown who is the first (and current) Robin on her Earth.

A Stephenie Brown who is the new Cluemaster (a more successful one) after Arthur died on her Earth. Because this Stephenie actually LIKED her father and miss him dearly as he was a better father to her here. (albeit still a criminal)

A Stephenie Brown who father was never Cluemaster, just a small time criminal and so Stephenie never became Spoiler. (Stephenie life here is basically Fiona Gallagher(US) From Shameless)

A Stephenie Brown who killed her father as Spoiler, went to jail and when she came out became a Anti-Batman crusader who's trying to stop Batman by legal means. (Batgirl Stephenie and the rest of Batfamily are going to call her out over this HARD! as she's only doing this because she rather blame Batman for the death of her father than herself who she actually killed)

And of course A Stephenie Brown who became the Red Hood.

I wonder what Batgirl Stephenie reactions to these versions of herself would be?

----------


## millernumber1

> I kinda want to see a story center around Pre-Flashpoint Batgirl Stephenie Brown in where she experiences a small scale version of the DC event Zero Hour in which she (and the rest of the Batfamily) meets five alternate versions of herself, working together with some of them or trying to stop some of them. And the versions I would have them meet would be-
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who is the first (and current) Robin on her Earth.
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who is the new Cluemaster (a more successful one) after Arthur died on her Earth. Because this Stephenie actually LIKED her father and miss him dearly as he was a better father to her here. (albeit still a criminal)
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who father was never Cluemaster, just a small time criminal and so Stephenie never became Spoiler. (Stephenie life here is basically Fiona Gallagher(US) From Shameless)
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who killed her father as Spoiler, went to jail and when she came out became a Anti-Batman crusader who's trying to stop Batman by legal means. (Batgirl Stephenie and the rest of Batfamily are going to call her out over this HARD! as she's only doing this because she rather blame Batman for the death of her father than herself who she actually killed)
> ...


Oh, man, that would be a really awesome story. I love those "meet other versions" stories like Spoiler seeing her Batgirl and Robin selves in Tec 980, or Steph meeting all the other Robins.

I think Batgirl Steph would:

1) Think Robin Steph was the coolest ever, and happy that she never had to go through the pain of War Games.

2) Very sad about Cluemaster Steph

3) You perfectly describe meeting murderer Steph

4) Understand, but try to reach Red Hood Steph just like Tim and Cass tried to reach her in the Different Game fics.

----------


## brer rabbit

> Oh, man, that would be a really awesome story. I love those "meet other versions" stories like Spoiler seeing her Batgirl and Robin selves in Tec 980, or Steph meeting all the other Robins.
> 
> I think Batgirl Steph would:
> 
> 1) Think Robin Steph was the coolest ever, and happy that she never had to go through the pain of War Games.
> 
> 2) Very sad about Cluemaster Steph
> 
> 3) You perfectly describe meeting murderer Steph
> ...


Can you go into a bit more depth on why Batgirl Steph feels sad about Cluemaster Steph? (more on her backstory later)

Here a bit more info on the Anti-Batman Steph: After killing her father less than three months since she gets locked up, her mom had taken a bottle and a half of Vicodin, then went to sleep. She never woke up. The doctors don't think it was an accident. (She can't say who she's mad at. Her mom, for leaving her. Her dad, for pushing her to the pills in the first place. Herself, for giving her mom a reason to want give up.)  either out of guilt or bitterness sort of becomes an anti-Batman crusader arguing that not only do costumed vigilantes encourage escalation from supervillains, but that they encourage people to seek justice outside the law. After all without Batman her dad might have been a two-bit thug, but he wouldn't have been the costumed criminal known as the Cluemaster.

----------


## millernumber1

> Can you go into a bit more depth on why Batgirl Steph feels sad about Cluemaster Steph? (more on her backstory later)
> 
> Here a bit more info on the Anti-Batman Steph: After killing her father less than three months since she gets locked up, her mom had taken a bottle and a half of Vicodin, then went to sleep. She never woke up. The doctors don't think it was an accident. (She can't say who she's mad at. Her mom, for leaving her. Her dad, for pushing her to the pills in the first place. Herself, for giving her mom a reason to want give up.)  either out of guilt or bitterness sort of becomes an anti-Batman crusader arguing that not only do costumed vigilantes encourage escalation from supervillains, but that they encourage people to seek justice outside the law. After all without Batman her dad might have been a two-bit thug, but he wouldn't have been the costumed criminal known as the Cluemaster.


Well, Steph has always wanted to do good and help people. Unless Cluemaster Steph is sort of Robin-Hood-ish, I don't see how that would be accomplished.

----------


## brer rabbit

> Well, Steph has always wanted to do good and help people. Unless Cluemaster Steph is sort of Robin-Hood-ish, I don't see how that would be accomplished.


No, Cluemaster Steph is more of a gentleman thief in that she steals only for the challenge of it and the fact she wants to live up to the original Cluemaster legacy by being the greatest thief of all time. she in fact rarely leaves clues to her crimes unless she's bored and wants to add some 'spice' to the crime.

----------


## Dataweaver

> I kinda want to see a story center around Pre-Flashpoint Batgirl Stephenie Brown in where she experiences a small scale version of the DC event Zero Hour in which she (and the rest of the Batfamily) meets five alternate versions of herself, working together with some of them or trying to stop some of them. And the versions I would have them meet would be-
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who is the first (and current) Robin on her Earth.
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who is the new Cluemaster (a more successful one) after Arthur died on her Earth. Because this Stephenie actually LIKED her father and miss him dearly as he was a better father to her here. (albeit still a criminal)
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who father was never Cluemaster, just a small time criminal and so Stephenie never became Spoiler. (Stephenie life here is basically Fiona Gallagher(US) From Shameless)
> 
> A Stephenie Brown who killed her father as Spoiler, went to jail and when she came out became a Anti-Batman crusader who's trying to stop Batman by legal means. (Batgirl Stephenie and the rest of Batfamily are going to call her out over this HARD! as she's only doing this because she rather blame Batman for the death of her father than herself who she actually killed)
> ...


The Steph-as-Robin version could be the one featured in Robin #101; there's nothing in that issue indicating that Batman ever had any other sidekicks in that reality.

----------


## millernumber1

> No, Cluemaster Steph is more of a gentleman thief in that she steals only for the challenge of it and the fact she wants to live up to the original Cluemaster legacy by being the greatest thief of all time. she in fact rarely leaves clues to her crimes unless she's bored and wants to add some 'spice' to the crime.


Interesting. Does she do any good in the world, or is she more like The Saint, where she just steals things and doesn't really think about the consequences?




> The Steph-as-Robin version could be the one featured in Robin #101; there's nothing in that issue indicating that Batman ever had any other sidekicks in that reality.


That was a fun issue. I have it as part of my quest to own all of Steph's appearances as Robin (except for the one issue she gets fired.)

----------


## brer rabbit

> Interesting. Does she do any good in the world, or is she more like The Saint, where she just steals things and doesn't really think about the consequences?


It's the latter as this version of Stephanie personality is similar to Rei Ayanami. Now despite what some people might think Rei herself does have emotions

She's just not good with people, the same goes for Cluemaster Stephanie and she's also extremely intelligent. (Think Near from Death Note smart)

----------


## millernumber1

> It's the latter as this version of Stephanie personality is similar to Rei Ayanami. Now despite what some people might think Rei herself does have emotions
> 
> She's just not good with people, the same goes for Cluemaster Stephanie and she's also extremely intelligent. (Think Near from Death Note smart)


I am sadly not familiar with any of those characters.  :Smile: 

I personally really love Steph's exuberant, bubbly, corny, funny, hopeful personality (with flashes of anger at injustice or her dad, and a huge helping of stubbornness). But I think AU Steph versions should have slightly different personalities - I love a Steph who's been broken and come back dark, like Jason did in Red Hood, or a Steph who was raised in evil but broke free (even though that's cheating, as it's Cass and Damian's backstory - but hey, so was Red Hood.)

----------


## brer rabbit

> I am sadly not familiar with any of those characters. 
> 
> I personally really love Steph's exuberant, bubbly, corny, funny, hopeful personality (with flashes of anger at injustice or her dad, and a huge helping of stubbornness). But I think AU Steph versions should have slightly different personalities - I love a Steph who's been broken and come back dark, like Jason did in Red Hood, or a Steph who was raised in evil but broke free (even though that's cheating, as it's Cass and Damian's backstory - but hey, so was Red Hood.)


Cluemaster Steph personality is socially withdrawn, seemingly emotionless, and rarely interacts with anyone, except for Arthur, to whom she displays loyalty but with whom she has a generally great relationship with. The Stephanie here is not totally devoid of personality, otherwise she would not be interesting." There is a small spark of humanity, but it is "clouded by this huge sense of negative self-worth.

The Arthur Brown on her Earth (this Stephanie is actually his adopted daughter) actually has the exuberant, bubbly, corny, funny, hopeful personality her main counterpart has as he was noted to be very good with people (Cluemaster Stephanie was a bit jealous of this) and he truly does love Stephanie.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cluemaster Steph personality is socially withdrawn, seemingly emotionless, and rarely interacts with anyone, except for Arthur, to whom she displays loyalty but with whom she has a generally great relationship with. The Stephanie here is not totally devoid of personality, otherwise she would not be interesting." There is a small spark of humanity, but it is "clouded by this huge sense of negative self-worth.
> 
> The Arthur Brown on her Earth (this Stephanie is actually his adopted daughter) actually has the exuberant, bubbly, corny, funny, hopeful personality her main counterpart has as he was noted to be very good with people (Cluemaster Stephanie was a bit jealous of this) and he truly does love Stephanie.


Interesting - I'd love to see that dynamic...

----------


## millernumber1

New info about Steph from TV Guide!

TV Guide YJ3 p1.jpg
TV Guide YJ3 p2.jpg

*Spoiler* : In Season 2, Batgirl, Robin, Bumblebee, Superboy, and others saved a young girl named Stephanie Brown from the Reach - a species of villainous alien invaders. Stephanie’s saviors have since inspired her to don a costume and become Spoiler. Though she doesn’t have special powers, she’s a skilled martial artist.

----------


## Frontier

> New info about Steph from TV Guide!
> 
> TV Guide YJ3 p1.jpg
> TV Guide YJ3 p2.jpg
> 
> *Spoiler* : In Season 2, Batgirl, Robin, Bumblebee, Superboy, and others saved a young girl named Stephanie Brown from the Reach - a species of villainous alien invaders. Stephanie’s saviors have since inspired her to don a costume and become Spoiler. Though she doesn’t have special powers, *she’s a skilled martial artist*.


I wonder who trained her? I doubt it was Batman. 

Tim or Barbara?

----------


## millernumber1

> I wonder who trained her? I doubt it was Batman. 
> 
> Tim or Barbara?


Tim or Babs makes most sense, I've heard rumors of Dick, and Artemis seems like an outside (hahaha) chance.

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## WonderNight

> I wonder who trained her? I doubt it was Batman. 
> 
> Tim or Barbara?


Look at the weapons on her back, who would be the most likely to train her to use escrima sticks?

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## millernumber1

> Look at the weapons on her back, who would be the most likely to train her to use escrima sticks?


Babs!  :Smile:  Bein contrary

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## adrikito

The ROBINS:




> Robins assembled;
> 
> Attachment 68109

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## millernumber1

> The ROBINS:


That's pretty cool! Is that like a Power Rangers thing?

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## Armor of God

Can Steph finally get some love too? If DC is showing willingness to share the Batgirl mantle then no reason why Steph shouldn't get a piece of the pie.

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## millernumber1

> Can Steph finally get some love too? If DC is showing willingness to share the Batgirl mantle then no reason why Steph shouldn't get a piece of the pie.


Well, Steph is in Young Justice, and that is confirmed and with images. Cass is a bit more distant. And to be fair, Cass was Batgirl first.

But I wouldn't say no to some more Steph Batgirl love!  :Smile:

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## juffuj5

Just saw the trailer for YJ season 3. Stephanie doesn't appear in it. >_<

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## millernumber1

> Just saw the trailer for YJ season 3. Stephanie doesn't appear in it. >_<


Rats! Thanks for the report!

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## millernumber1

We have an image of Steph's Spoiler Action Figure (DC Multiverse, supposed to be a Walmart exclusive) in the box, with apparently some Jason Fabok artwork on the cover!

Steph in Box.jpg

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## adrikito

> Just saw the trailer for YJ season 3. Stephanie doesn't appear in it. >_<


I saw the trailer. I am really dissapointed too... However, Drake only appeared like 5 seconds. BUT HE IS ONE OLD CHARACTER, no matter and unlike her he was in the trailer.  :Mad: 




> We have an image of Steph's Spoiler Action Figure (DC Multiverse, supposed to be a Walmart exclusive) in the box, with apparently some Jason Fabok artwork on the cover!
> 
> Steph in Box.jpg


Thanks, even as figure BIZARRO is really funny.

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## RedBird

mingjuechen



Batgirls

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## millernumber1

> mingjuechen
> 
> 
> 
> Batgirls


I am a big fan of Chen from Gotham Academy, but these redesigns are gorgeous!

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## RedBird

> I am a big fan of Chen from Gotham Academy, but these redesigns are gorgeous!


I know right? I love how Stephs look like a beautiful update taking inspiration from Babs more funky modern design whilst still having her own signature BG touch, like the ribbed sides. The update to the symbol looks stylish and in tone with both Steph and the rest of the outfit, plus I also favor the cowl that travels down and covers the neck, so this outfit gets an extra 10+ points for that alone.  :Big Grin:

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## adrikito

> mingjuechen
> 
> 
> 
> Batgirls


I liked Cass here but.... Steph is like another batgirl of burnside here..  :Frown:   :Frown:

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## millernumber1

> I know right? I love how Stephs look like a beautiful update taking inspiration from Babs more funky modern design whilst still having her own signature BG touch, like the ribbed sides. The update to the symbol looks stylish and in tone with both Steph and the rest of the outfit, plus I also favor the cowl that travels down and covers the neck, so this outfit gets an extra 10+ points for that alone.


Steph's original Batgirl uniform was very protective of her neck and back - BQM said that Babs put extra armor there because she cared about Steph, and I love that detail.

The BIG Bat is so very brash and Steph - I really enjoy little (or big, as the case may be) touches like that!

What do you think of Sean Murphy's new Babs redesign? It has NO cowl, which is kinda odd, but I like the fact that most of it is basically the Batgirl Year One outfit, which is still Babs' best story.




> I liked Cass here but.... Steph is like another batgirl of burnside here..


As RedBird says, Chen is taking inspiration in the jacket style, but she makes it look so much better with the ribbed sides!  :Smile:

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## RedBird

> I liked Cass here but.... Steph is like another batgirl of burnside here..


To be fair, I feel like Steph would have been the more appropriate candidate for that whole lighthearted 'Batgirl of Burnside' thing. Not to say its what I would have sought out for her, but the up and coming, young and zesty vibe would have suited her just fine. Plus we could have avoided all that hubbub at the time about Babs 'seeming' regressed in order to fit a certain tone and demographic. Oh and yes Cass also looks great, I like the artist clearly took inspo from the Black Bat outfit and her current Orphan look. Cass needs a cape is all I'm sayin.  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

> To be fair, I feel like Steph would have been the more appropriate candidate for that whole lighthearted 'Batgirl of Burnside' thing. Not to say its what I would have sought out for her, but the up and coming, young and zesty vibe would have suited her just fine. Plus we could have avoided all that hubbub at the time about Babs 'seeming' regressed in order to fit a certain tone and demographic. Oh and yes Cass also looks great, I like the artist clearly took inspo from the Black Bat outfit and her current Orphan look. Cass needs a cape is all I'm sayin.


Well said! And I actually liked the two issues where Steph was basically filling in for Babs way more than the rest of the Burnside run. Though I don't go quite as far as some and say that Burnside Babs was the same as Steph (thankfully - I much prefer BQM to the Burnside run).

I'd rather Cass have a different hat than a cape. Not that I'd say no to a cape, but the skullcap just doesn't work for me.  :Smile:

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## RedBird

> The BIG Bat is so very brash and Steph - I really enjoy little (or big, as the case may be) touches like that!


Exactly
It's bold and in your face, very much Steph, or at least how Steph likes to come across.  :Big Grin: 




> What do you think of Sean Murphy's new Babs redesign? It has NO cowl, which is kinda odd, but I like the fact that most of it is basically the Batgirl Year One outfit, which is still Babs' best story.


I'm with you in that I really like the fact that it's reminiscent to her Year One outfit, I love that it has the OG Batgirl colours in there, I am a sucker for the nostalgia. But I do have two complaints. One being, yeah, the lack of a cowl. It just looks really goofy to me, like she is wearing a Halloween kitty cat ear headband rather than any sort of mask or protective head gear. Whats wrong the cowl DC, it looks great. I'd honestly take the Burnside cap cowl over this headband look. 

And two (mind you I'm not 100% on this one I'm hoping its misinterpretation on my part but) what on earth is with the uneven boots? One reaches her thigh whilst the other reaches her knee? It looks like she couldn't find the right shoe sizes for either foot. I'm hoping that that is just the artist trying to decide on which one and showing both as an example, but so far I can't find any other images to confirm or deny that 'one large boot, one small boot'....thing.

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## millernumber1

> Exactly
> It's bold and in your face, very much Steph, or at least how Steph likes to come across. 
> 
> I'm with you in that I really like the fact that it's reminiscent to her Year One outfit, I love that it has the OG Batgirl colours in there, I am a sucker for the nostalgia. But I do have two complaints. One being, yeah, the lack of a cowl. It just looks really goofy to me, like she is wearing a Halloween kitty cat ear headband rather than any sort of mask or protective head gear. Whats wrong the cowl DC, it looks great. I'd honestly take the Burnside cap cowl over this headband look. 
> 
> And two (mind you I'm not 100% on this one I'm hoping its misinterpretation on my part but) what on earth is with the uneven boots? One reaches her thigh whilst the other reaches her knee? It looks like she couldn't find the right shoe sizes for either foot. I'm hoping that that is just the artist trying to decide on which one and showing both as an example, but so far I can't find any other images to confirm or deny that 'one large boot, one small boot'....thing.


Steph is nothing if not Statement Making.  :Smile:  Here we go!

I don't hate the lack of cowl (since I don't really care about the secret identity plots, so I don't mind if they Clark Kent the cowl.  :Smile:  ) As long as they keep the ears, I'm fine with it.

I originally thought the boots were uneven, but now I think that was just a design test, to see which length they liked better. Until we FINALLy get Batgirl #26, though, I don't think we'll know for sure. (And they keep delaying everything - not sure what's up with that.)

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## RedBird

Well not to take the focus off Steph too much, but I guess now we know now thanks to the solicit art that the boots are indeed even. I'm glad they went with the knee high option rather than the thigh high one.

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## millernumber1

> Well not to take the focus off Steph too much, but I guess now we know now thanks to the solicit art that the boots are indeed even. I'm glad they went with the knee high option rather than the thigh high one.


Oh, man, didn't even catch that - thanks for noticing!  :Smile: 

As for poor Steph...it is pretty sad that I don't see her anywhere. Nicer for my wallet, though!  :Smile:

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## juffuj5

tumblr_pcftq5ME4l1sqyt7ko1_540.jpg

Stephanie Brown bio in Young Justice! This sounds just like her and I'm happy!

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## Starter Set

Pretty cool they went for her Spoiler persona. Love that look.

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## millernumber1

> tumblr_pcftq5ME4l1sqyt7ko1_540.jpg
> 
> Stephanie Brown bio in Young Justice! This sounds just like her and I'm happy!


I heard about this - I'm so glad to see it, finally! No one in the thread on a different forum seemed to have gotten this - it's so pretty! Looks like Weisman was indeed reading Tynion's Tec (which, I know, isn't everyone's favorite version of Steph, but I really loved it, with a couple of issues that didn't work for me).

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## millernumber1

Man, this double post thing is killing me.  :Frown: 

Ah, well, good to see the Steph content starting to pick up again! It's been a dark few months!

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## adrikito

> tumblr_pcftq5ME4l1sqyt7ko1_540.jpg
> 
> Stephanie Brown bio in Young Justice! This sounds just like her and I'm happy!


FINALLY SOMETHING OF STEPH.. The trailer dissapointed me(However, Drake only appeared a few seconds)

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## adrikito

> tumblr_pcftq5ME4l1sqyt7ko1_540.jpg
> 
> Stephanie Brown bio in Young Justice! This sounds just like her and I'm happy!


FINALLY SOMETHING OF STEPH.. The trailer dissapointed me.

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## Frontier

> I heard about this - I'm so glad to see it, finally! No one in the thread on a different forum seemed to have gotten this - it's so pretty! Looks like Weisman was indeed reading Tynion's Tec (which, I know, isn't everyone's favorite version of Steph, but I really loved it, with a couple of issues that didn't work for me).


I thought it was an on-point description of Steph, but I didn't think it was reflective of Tynion's Steph...unless she starts inexplicably hacking stuff as per being "wickedly smart"  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## millernumber1

> I thought it was an on-point description of Steph, but I didn't think it was reflective of Tynion's Steph...unless she starts inexplicably hacking stuff as per being "wickedly smart" .


The whole "wickedly smart" stuff wasn't usually how people described her - more "girl next door" or "determined/stubborn". The "something to prove" thing is true of Dixon and Tynion Steph (and I think Tynion was deliberately trying to recreate Dixon Steph, so that's fair).

I just noticed something, though: "Spoiler-B-Two-Eight" - Batman #28, the first time Spoiler appears in the n52!

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## Frontier

> The whole "wickedly smart" stuff wasn't usually how people described her - more "girl next door" or "determined/stubborn". The "something to prove" thing is true of Dixon and Tynion Steph (and I think Tynion was deliberately trying to recreate Dixon Steph, so that's fair).


Well, I hope the crew lean more Dixon then Tynion, all the same  :Smile: .



> I just noticed something, though: "Spoiler-B-Two-Eight" - Batman #28, the first time Spoiler appears in the n52!


Huh! I wonder if that was a coincidence  :Wink: .

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## millernumber1

> Well, I hope the crew lean more Dixon then Tynion, all the same .
> 
> Huh! I wonder if that was a coincidence .


I hope so too. I LOVE Tynion, don't get me wrong, but Dixon is the OG Steph for me. With a lot of BQM, of course!

There's no way that's a coincidence. I kinda wish it was "D-Six-Four-Seven" (for Detective Comics 647, her first appearance ever), but you can't have everything. I haven't checked the numbers for the other profiles.

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## millernumber1

> I hope so too. I LOVE Tynion, don't get me wrong, but Dixon is the OG Steph for me. With a lot of BQM, of course!
> 
> There's no way that's a coincidence. I kinda wish it was "D-Six-Four-Seven" (for Detective Comics 647, her first appearance ever), but you can't have everything. I haven't checked the numbers for the other profiles.


Okay, so I found the thread on another forum where several of these others have been posted, including Cassie and Thirteen, and they have B-27 and B-29, so I think it's actually just their team numbers, not a reference.  :Frown:

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## millernumber1

Voting popularity context - Tim vs. Steph - that's brutal...

http://community.comicbookresources....nament-Round-2

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## RedBird

sonialiao

----------


## millernumber1

> sonialiao


That's a really awesome pic! I love how red the colors are - reminds me of how Steph looked in Genevieve Valentine's Catwoman, colored by Lee Loughridge.

Catwoman 042 (2015) (Digital-Empire)-015.jpg

There was also this amazing piece today:



https://twitter.com/route345dude/sta...63991991078912

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## adrikito

> Voting popularity context - Tim vs. Steph - that's brutal...
> 
> http://community.comicbookresources....nament-Round-2


I can´t believe this.. Steph victory was almost here and.. 3 more users voted Drake..  :Mad:   :Mad:

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## millernumber1

> I can´t believe this.. Steph victory was almost here and.. 3 more users voted Drake..


I mean, I like Tim a lot, and he has had a solo much longer than Steph, so it's not suprising. It's just kinda sad.  :Frown:

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## adrikito

> I mean, I like Tim a lot, and he has had a solo much longer than Steph, so it's not suprising. It's just kinda sad.


One of these users has 18 posts.... I even suspected of Double account.. She losed for 2 votes..  :Frown: 




> sonialiao


Excellent.. Except Barbara costume.. I am happy that finally they changed her costume but.. For some reason I think that even with that maybe I will not give a chance to Batgirl again, change the costume maybe can´t change barbara personality of the last years.

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## millernumber1

> One of these users has 18 posts.... I even suspected of Double account..


Awww, it's all good fun. And much less vicious than the points games I see in the Marvel forums.  :Smile:

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## Dataweaver

It also says something that Stephanie came so close, even given Tim's built-in edge.

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## millernumber1

> It also says something that Stephanie came so close, even given Tim's built-in edge.


I mean, if you look at how many issues Steph is in, the number of fanworks she appears in compared to the other Robins, it's clear that her fans punch above their weight in terms of numbers (that is, they're louder and more enthusiastic than you'd expect for being so small). But I'm afraid that the haters are right, and Steph's fandom has shrunk a bit since her controversial arc in Detective Comics (which I STILL think was pretty good, if sometimes frustrating. Of course, I also think Steph's arc in War Games is sympathetic...)

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## Dataweaver

I don't think anyone's stopped being a fan of Stephanie because of the Detective Comics run. A bit less enthusiastic, sure (and as a Tim fan, I can relate); but if War Games didn't drive her fans away, _nothing_ will.

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## millernumber1

> I don't think anyone's stopped being a fan of Stephanie because of the Detective Comics run. A bit less enthusiastic, sure (and as a Tim fan, I can relate); but if War Games didn't drive her fans away, _nothing_ will.


Well, I did read a couple of people who said they used to be a fan and aren't anymore after Tynion's Tec. And the cooling of enthusiasm is a real problem-but Dustin Nguyen says it was a problem after Eternal, because fans stopped asking about her once they got her back.

However, I did notice that the n52's erasure of Steph and Cass is much worse in terms of driving people away from comics - the previous mod of the Steph wikia and several of her staff all left and haven't come back since 2011.

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## Matt

There is a notion that rather large threads may contribute to server load. As such, we are experimenting with closing existing threads to see if it helps matters.
Feel free to start a new thread on the same topic.

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