# Comics  > Batman >  Dick Grayson: Robin / Nightwing Appreciation 2020

## Rac7d*

Lets hope for a better year for our boy in 2020














Lets bring a little more positive energy this year too

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## Restingvoice

His anniversary approaches

ICO003761_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

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## KangMiRae

The fourth pillar of the DC universe! We should go into 2020 hoping for no more Ric situations and more Dick situations  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## SixSpeedSamurai

Hopefully Dick is back this year.  I'd kill for a story by the guy who drew the pic in the OP (McDaniel) and Dixon.   With all due respect to Wolfman and Perez, Dixon/McDaniel are the bar for Nightwing.

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## KangMiRae

> Hopefully Dick is back this year.  I'd kill for a story by the guy who drew the pic in the OP (McDaniel) and Dixon.   With all due respect to Wolfman and Perez, Dixon/McDaniel are the bar for Nightwing.


I think for the Robin anniversary book upcoming they've got all 3, Wolfman, Perez and Dixon. _I think_. I know it's not a complete book for either of them, but it's something!

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## 9th.

In, hopefully the tides turn

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## AmiMizuno

How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?

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## WallyWestFlash

nightwing_colored_by_hanzozuken_d4ubwxe-fullview.jpg
1char.

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## Valentonis

Hoping our lad sees some better times. And hopefully all the Wingnuts in this thread have a decent 2020 themselves :Big Grin:

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## Darkcrusade25

Shouldn't it be "Ric Grayson: Ex-Robin/Ex-Nightwing Appreciation 2020?"?

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## gregpersons

> How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?


Expediently.

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## Godlike13

Let’s hope 2020 is a better year.

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## Jackalope89

> How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?


Before it started.

Honestly, going forward, if its swept under the rug, and future writers pretend it never happened, I would be OK with that.

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## Godlike13

> How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?


Brutal and bloody. Acknowledge that they f’d up and go scorched earth. Leading to a fresh start with fresh creators.

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## cc008

2020: The Year of Dick 

Let's hope

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## Digifiend

> How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?


I want to see the Titans do what they should've done at the start. Raven and Miss Martian should've been able to resolve this at the beginning, but they didn't even try.

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## WallyWestFlash

Based on what Tynion said Nightwing should be back soon. Looking forward to that.

Been awhile since I was able to pick up a Nightwing comic with all the nonsense going on.

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## Restingvoice

Who is your preferred first supervillain for Dick?
Joker in the Golden Age
Two-Face in Year One
Lady Shiva in New 52 
Scarecrow in Rebirth
It doesn't have to be the exact story or version, just the character, concept or dynamic

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## L.H.

Two Face. The Great Lap is still my favourite Nightwing story.
Happy New Year to everybody.
Any news about Titans 3 or Young Justice 4?

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## 9th.

> How do you guys want to see this Ric story ended?


I don't really care how it ends to be honest with you, as long as it comes to a stopping point.

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## 9th.

> Who is your preferred first supervillain for Dick?
> Joker in the Golden Age
> Two-Face in Year One
> Lady Shiva in New 52 
> Scarecrow in Rebirth
> It doesn't have to be the exact story or version, just the character, concept or dynamic


I love Two-face as his first major villain

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## Ascended

Yeah, I agree; Two Face is my preferred first villain for Dick. 

Here's to 2020 and the hopeful return of Dick Grayson; DC's greatest human!

And just because it's a new year and a new thread here's a little fan art I threw together a while ago. Just a character sketch, nothing impressive. It'll probably post pretty small but if you zoom in there's a lot of little details, spirals in Dick's eyes, stuff like that.

Nightwing McArthur.jpg

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## Rac7d*

> 2020: The Year of Dick 
> 
> Let's hope


Nothing but BIg Dick Grayson energy

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## AmiMizuno

I'm hoping that they wipe the slate clean and leave it where they left off. That this was all fake. One of the best things about Dick Grayson is how for the most part all the Batfam are clean with him. How is it that all the family is cool with Dick? I love that. Even Jason is cool with him. Despite Dick's more loyalty to Bruce

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## Frontier

Happy New Year to Dick Grayson! May 2020 be a better and brighter tomorrow for you  :Smile: .

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## cc008

> Nothing but BIg Dick Grayson energy


That's right!

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## CPSparkles

Happy New Year Grayson fans. Wishing you and one of comics most Iconic the very best year.

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## Valentonis

> Nightwing McArthur.jpg


This is amazing, if there were ever a Nightwing animated series or something like that this would be the perfect look.

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## AmiMizuno

If Nightwing were to ever get a black label any ideas where to start?

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## Restingvoice

> If Nightwing were to ever get a black label any ideas where to start?


Let's see... the darkest mature point in Nightwing history would be when he let Tarantula shot Blockbuster after he systematically destroyed his life, and was so mentally broken that he couldn't prevent her raping him, and coercing him to marry her.

So... mobster... dark and stormy nights... sexy women with dubious consent... the slaughter of friends... maybe add Scarecrow's hallucination while we're at it since he's in both Bludhaven and Rebirth Bludhaven

Like, noir, but instead of being a grizzled hard-boiled detective, he straddles the line between protagonist and victim

Oh you mean a story I actually want to read?

Hmmh... don't know actually, since I'm not really interested in a mature story...

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## Ascended

> This is amazing, if there were ever a Nightwing animated series or something like that this would be the perfect look.


Ha, thanks! I gotta admit, I don't think I've ever put so much effort into making sure I got a character's butt just right. 




> If Nightwing were to ever get a black label any ideas where to start?


The first thing that popped into my head is "Bruce dies, and with no one else capable of taking over, Dick steps into the role. But not as Batman, as Nightwing. And he has to wrest back control of Gotham." But everything handled in a pulp noir flavor, with all the usual fun troupes (the femme fatale, etc) that're associated with it. Roxy Rocket would most definitely be involved. 

My second thought was Dick being a stowaway on a Gordanian slave ship, and he has to defeat the alien slavers, free the slaves, keep them from killing each other, and find his way home. Not quite a fish out of water thing, but more of a "dark Silver Age" vibe....kinda sorta along a similar vibe to certain arcs in Invincible (gods I miss that book!)

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## L.H.

> If Nightwing were to ever get a black label any ideas where to start?


I'd love and Elseword story on Earth 5029, showing how he became Deathstroke. 
Also, a story where he is forced to join a villain in order to save the world (like what Owlman asked him in Forever Evil).
And a team up with Midnighter and Apollo. Finally: what if Bruce wasn't at the circus, that night?

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## Valentonis

I've been kicking around a fanfiction for the past few months about a universe where Dick was adopted by Slade instead of Bruce after his parents death, that might work for a black label type story.

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## AmiMizuno

Honestly, maybe more stories are characters that are elsewhere. I mean like Mari Grayson and now they added him having a son in one storyline. What do they add to the myths

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## Jackalope89

> Honestly, maybe more stories are characters that are elsewhere. I mean like Mari Grayson and now they added him having a son in one storyline. What do they add to the myths


Really, they only add to Elseword Mythos, as both of those kids are with Kori. And Kori is out in space with Darkseid. At this point, it would require _another_ reboot to even have a chance at Mari or Jake.

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## Restingvoice

Interruption, wasn't Robin's first villain in Year One Firefly? Before he faced Two-Face?
Or was it Killer Moth. I always confuse the two. Who's the joke?

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## AmiMizuno

> Really, they only add to Elseword Mythos, as both of those kids are with Kori. And Kori is out in space with Darkseid. At this point, it would require _another_ reboot to even have a chance at Mari or Jake.


Not really since I'm speaking about them being in Black Label. What would it add if both were in the black label series?  I mean how many villains are just created for Nightwing? I don't mind if there is a crossover with Batman villains or even other villains.

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## Godlike13

Well maybe it’s time for a story about Bryce.

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## 9th.

> If Nightwing were to ever get a black label any ideas where to start?


metahuman trafficking like in YJ

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## Restingvoice

> Well maybe it’s time for a story about Bryce.


...Did he name her after Bruce?

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## Godlike13

I assume they did.

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## AmiMizuno

Do you guys think there is a storyline they can go back to?

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## Godlike13

Grayson. Cause it’s was good.

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## CPSparkles

> Grayson. Cause it’s was good.


Yes this. So much this. Grayson ended too soon for me.

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## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/okayu0317





https://twitter.com/tpoc0ik833jk




https://twitter.com/akkiyamia

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## CPSparkles

Young Justice




Nightwing




Officer Grayson except he throws his guns





https://twitter.com/akkiyamia

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## Valentonis

I know its not super popular around these parts, but I kinda liked Dick's cop days. Yea it required a little suspension of disbelief on how he could still be Nightwing while being on call, but hey that's comics. I don't think he should go back to that profession, but it was a fun little stint.

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## CPSparkles

New batman giant: Batman Caped Crusader at Target

100 pages with all story with Nightwing

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## CPSparkles

Mcfarlane New Toys

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## Ascended

I'm not a toy guy (I did buy the New52 Nightwing figure though, because it's Nightwing) but I am very glad Dick was a part of this first roll out.

Look at that, Didio! Nightwing has fans! He's popular! Stop holding him hostage in the comics!!

Gotta be honest though, I expected better looking toys from this guy. McFarlene toys are legendary for their quality and these look good, but nowhere near as good as some of the other ones I've seen the company make.

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## Godlike13

Toy Babs is creeping me out.

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## Rac7d*

> I know its not super popular around these parts, but I kinda liked Dick's cop days. Yea it required a little suspension of disbelief on how he could still be Nightwing while being on call, but hey that's comics. I don't think he should go back to that profession, but it was a fun little stint.


It’s when bludhaven worked at its best

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## Frontier

> Toy Babs is creeping me out.


Yeah, that smile and those eyes  :EEK!: .

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## WonderNight

> Toy Babs is creeping me out.


its the batgirl who laughs

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## dropkickjake

Gotta say, y'all, I'm sad to see "Agent 37" or "Agent of Spyral" absent from this year's thread's title. #neverforget

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## Digifiend

> Gotta say, y'all, I'm sad to see "Agent 37" or "Agent of Spyral" absent from this year's thread's title. #neverforget


They're being trimmed across the board. Nothing fancy, just civilian name codename appreciation 2020.

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## 9th.

> Gotta say, y'all, I'm sad to see "Agent 37" or "Agent of Spyral" absent from this year's thread's title. #neverforget


He'll live on in our minds forever

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## Badou

> They're being trimmed across the board. Nothing fancy, just civilian name codename appreciation 2020.


Steph was Robin for like 3 issues 15 years ago, but keeps that title. Dick was Batman and an Agent of Spyral for nearly 2 years each but loses those?

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## Roliver Queen

Update: Tynion alluded to a Major Summer event involving all the gotham books and his run is what will set all that up. 
Joker appearing in Bludhaven isn’t just a random ass pull after all.

https://twitter.com/jamesthefourth/s...356746240?s=21

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## Godlike13

Sounds more like how Snyder’s run operated. 

Joker appearing in Bludhaven seems the same as Talon. Connecting to an event in a desperate attempt to generate whatever interest in a clearly dying title that has played creators no could give a crap about. It’s a lazy attempt at a life preserver so they can continue to drag things out with these boring creators.

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## Digifiend

> Steph was Robin for like 3 issues 15 years ago, but keeps that title. Dick was Batman and an Agent of Spyral for nearly 2 years each but loses those?


Fair enough, they should've trimmed her down to just Spoiler and Batgirl.

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## Badou

I couldn't care less about what Nightwing ties into or why the Joker is appearing. It is all so completely tone deaf. It is like painting up rotten food to make it look edible and then serving it to people. The food is still rotten. They haven't fixed the book or how the book is looked at or treated at DC. I don't care about the Batman line being "cohesive" or another dumb Batman event regardless if Dick starts to call himself Nightwing again from it. Dick has been treated like crap in basically every Batman or DC event he is dragged into. Dick not calling himself Nightwing or Dick are the least of his problems, imo.

Dick has basically been running around as Nightwing since this Ric story started just without the name anyway. He's a costumed hero in all aspects. It is all just so pointless. Them dragging out his transition back so they can probably market it in some eye catching way to trick readers into thinking it is important so they buy it churns my stomach. 

Sorry if this post sounds super bitter, but it is all so frustrating. Until they drop everyone involved in the current title and put some younger creators who have some interesting or wild ideas to try out, and keep the book far away from any other books or events, it is tough to have any real hope.

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## Celgress

Happy 2020 to my favorite Robin, favorite former sidekick (and plain old sidekick) and second favorite member of the Bat Family, bar none.  :Cool: 

I hope this is the year Nightwing FINALLY gets back on track as a character. *nervously crosses fingers*

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## AmiMizuno

Hopefully, He gets more elsewhere stories or at least a black label

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## L.H.

Tynion said he was going to bring back Nightwing, now he talks about this summer event, involving the Batfam. Looks like Dick is coming back just before this big event. I hope with a new writer.

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## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah


Teen Titans




https://twitter.com/Flaffizz

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## AmiMizuno

> Tynion said he was going to bring back Nightwing, now he talks about this summer event, involving the Batfam. Looks like Dick is coming back just before this big event. I hope with a new writer.


I hope they ignore the pervious story. The next question is who should be the next writer

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## Digifiend

> Teen Titans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Flaffizz


Poor Donna...

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## Slim Shady

> I hope they ignore the pervious story. The next question is who should be the next writer


A new writer along with the end of Ric is a must.

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## Celgress

> Poor Donna...


Indeed, poor Donna lmao.  :Big Grin:

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## Celgress

> A new writer along with the end of Ric is a must.


Ain't that the truth (on both counts).  :Smile:

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## AmiMizuno

I hope things pick back up and we get good stories.

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## L.H.

> I hope they ignore the pervious story. The next question is who should be the next writer


My dream writer is Priest, but DC refused his pitch. Right now I'm fine with everybody except Jurgens, Abnett and Lobdell, but Dick truly needs a top writer. Even Snyder said he wanted to write a Nightwing run!

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## Godlike13

Hell I’ll take a new indies dude at this point. Anyone other then these protected, bottom of the charts, out of touch dudes. Who just excel at the art of quick work and dragging ass with their old school, boring ass, factory like techniques and ideas. 

Ideally at this point they should cancel the book and get pitches. But that would require far too much work then anyone in the current Bat office is willing to put in on Nightwing. I hate saying this, and im so tired of being so negative, but I see no reason not to expect more of the same. Them doing the bare minimum of what they have to, with whomever they have around. Cause why wouldn’t they. The only people upset with the work done with Ric are readers. 

The same people also responsible for Ric just aren’t all of a sudden going to not be terrible and struggle at very basics like they have since even before Ric.

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## Valentonis

Priest on Nightwing would've been dope, do we know what exactly his pitch was?

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## L.H.

No, I've just read in the Deathstroke topic that he made the pitch and was refused.
But I remember he saying that Dick is a boring character (not by himself, but how he is written) and needs a new development, starting with the mask: he wanted to give him a mask which shows his eyes, instead of hiding. 
Also, he wanted to bring Dick (and Damian) in the Defiance story line. 
I think Priest asked to work on character development, as being a leader and a mentor to young heroes, and also making some shady choices (like in Lazarus Contact), but it's hard to guess more.
I'm still hoping Priest can write at least a Titans run.

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## Slim Shady

> Ain't that the truth (on both counts).


I'm not kidding when I say this thing has went on about A YEAR too long.




> My dream writer is Priest, but DC refused his pitch. Right now I'm fine with everybody except Jurgens, Abnett and Lobdell, but Dick truly needs a top writer. Even Snyder said he wanted to write a Nightwing run!


Yeah I would've taken Priest on Nightwing in a hearbeat. Deathstroke was great. He wrote a pretty good Bruce and Damian so I can see him writing Dick good.

I'm willing to give just about anybody a try at this point. Tynion seems to be a part of future plans in some way. At least that's a start.

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## AmiMizuno

Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another

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## Jackalope89

> Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another


For all intents and purposes, Damian was Dick's sidekick.

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## Frontier

> Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another


Sidekicks are kind of a Batfamily thing.

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## AmiMizuno

This comes to a point what does it mean to be a sidekick. I generally see Dick taking someone and mentoring them

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## Rac7d*

> Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another


Tad did not work out

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## AmiMizuno

Should he be a mentor ? That instead of having a sidekick to maybe take his place. He makes sure mentoring becomes a way to help his mentee

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## Ascended

> Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another


Dick's had partners and sidekicks in the past. Damian, the guy from the Dixon days Nite-Wing, before Dick found out how unstable he was. Not to mention he's trained roughly three billion Titans, Rose Wilson, etc etc. 

So it's entirely in character for Dick to take someone under his wing. And beyond that, if you want Nightwing to be a big deal in comics, having a sidekick or legacy or junior partner, whatever you wanna call it, is one of those boxes you should check if you can. 

In my mind the only real question is who Dick takes on as a junior partner?

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## Drako

https://www.newsarama.com/48501-nigh...1-variant.html

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## CPSparkles

> This comes to a point what does it mean to be a sidekick. I generally see Dick taking someone and mentoring them


A sidekick that isn't a part of the Batfamily might be fun to see. Since Wally's kid's are back, maybe one of them

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## Godlike13

Rose Wilson.

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## CPSparkles

> https://www.newsarama.com/48501-nigh...1-variant.html


This is a lovely cover. 

Nightwing is going to be a busy boy in this anthology. I'm looking forward to it but is this treating Dick like a piece of meat? 

In this title of all the things put out by DC he gets multiple use. End of 2019 DC online was celebrating his Ass. I wish they would dedicate their time to thinking up serious projects for the character.

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## CPSparkles

> Rose Wilson.


I like the idea of Rose as Dick's sidekick. She's not part of the bats
Dick already has interesting history with Wilson's so it isn't out of nowhere
Their personalities contrast enough to keep things interesting.

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## AmiMizuno

Maybe a character that hasn't been used in a while. Or someone who has a close relationship with Dick.

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## KangMiRae

> https://www.newsarama.com/48501-nigh...1-variant.html


It's lovely, but it's also important to see the other cover featuring Nightwing! :P

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## Rac7d*

> It's lovely, but it's also important to see the other cover featuring Nightwing! :P


Catwoman was how old when he was robin?

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## Valentonis

> It's lovely, but it's also important to see the other cover featuring Nightwing! :P


Best cover of 2019 LMAO

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## AmiMizuno

Interesting

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## Restingvoice

> Catwoman was how old when he was robin?


Uhh... on Earth 2 she's 30 when he's in high school
In Year One Bruce is 25 and she's 19 while Dick became Robin at Year Three

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## AmiMizuno

Would that relationship even work?

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## Rac7d*

> Would that relationship even work?





> Uhh... on Earth 2 she's 30 when he's in high school
> In Year One Bruce is 25 and she's 19 while Dick became Robin at Year Three


I believe dick was taken advantage of twice by women as a teen. Even though Selina is a good person she had the same demeanor as those women.  So I say no. Even their infamous bullet make out is just a wee bit creepy

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## voidox

hm, this Crimes of passion (ugh -_-) is not going to be canon right? I have to imagine it's just a one-shot valentine thing that is using these characters... though even still, pls no to selina and dick anything, pls no. Just keep Dick with Babs~

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## WonderNight

> Does Dick need a sidekick? I don't know due to being with Bruce I don't know if he would want another


DC needs to first stop viewing nightwing as a sidekick himself.

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## Rac7d*

> https://www.newsarama.com/48501-nigh...1-variant.html


Already pre ordered

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## L.H.

> hm, this Crimes of passion (ugh -_-) is not going to be canon right? I have to imagine it's just a one-shot valentine thing that is using these characters... though even still, pls no to selina and dick anything, pls no. Just keep Dick with Babs~


I think it's just a shocking cover, nothing more. The only story with Nightwing, as far as se know, is a Dick/Babs story by Jay Baruchel.

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## Digifiend

> hm, this Crimes of passion (ugh -_-) is not going to be canon right? I have to imagine it's just a one-shot valentine thing that is using these characters... though even still, pls no to selina and dick anything, pls no. Just keep Dick with Babs~


It's not. Couldn't take place right now anyway considering Dick's continued amnesia.




> DC needs to first stop viewing nightwing as a sidekick himself.


They did, in 1984, it's the reason he became Nightwing in the first place, to show that he was now an independent hero and not just Batman's junior partner. Trouble is, they've always continued to think of him as a Robin even though he hasn't worn the red and green colours outside of flashbacks for over 35 years.

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## Restingvoice

> I believe dick was taken advantage of twice by women as a teen. Even though Selina is a good person she had the same demeanor as those women.  So I say no. Even their infamous bullet make out is just a wee bit creepy


He lost his virginity in college to a girl who already has a boyfriend if I remember correctly. Nightwing Year One? 
Don't know about the second girl.

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## Drako

> He lost his virginity in college to a girl who already has a boyfriend if I remember correctly. Nightwing Year One? 
> Don't know about the second girl.


He lost his virginity to Liu when he was 16. Marv Wolfman created her during his Nightwing run specifically for that reason. In the end, she was using him to have access to WayneTech.

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## Drako

Nightwing is consistently the third most popular DC character in a span of 12 years, according to the fan voting made by cbr.

I would put the image here, but is too big. So here is the direct link: https://i.redd.it/smc4bfacoj941.png

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...d_over_12year/

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## dietrich

Dick is insanely popular both with Comic readers and casuals which is what makes his treatment baffling.

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## Ascended

If it's not a personal bias on the part of administration I can only assume DC's total lack of effort with Nightwing is that they're afraid he'll somehow dig into Batman profits, like if they give us a proper Nightwing being as awesome as he should be, no one will bother reading Detective anymore. 

I've rolled this around with standard business theory more than a person who isn't employed by DC should, and I can't think of any reason for DC to be so Dickphobic.

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## Godlike13

I don’t know if they are Dickphobic, but there is something going on. Cause they still technically publish him, and have for a long time, but they do it in ways that pretty much guarantee what they produced with him can only go so far. 
And Ric has gone on longer then it would on any other character. For something they struggled to even launch, and is so blatantly not working, to be going on as long as it is. Something is definitely up. His title is at all time lows, fan sentiment is at all time lows, while his other media profile is larger then it has been maybe ever. Something is very wrong here.

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## Ascended

> I dont know if they are Dickphobic, but there is something going on. Cause they still technically publish him, and have for a long time, but they do it in ways that pretty much guarantee what they produced with him can only go so far. 
> And Ric has gone on longer then it would on any other character. For something they struggled to even lunch, and is so blatantly not working, to be going on as long as it is. Something is definitely up. His title is at all time lows, fan sentiment is at all time lows, while his other media profile is larger then it has been maybe ever. Something is very wrong here.


Exactly. And I hate to be one of those "Didio is the devil!" people. I tend to really dislike it when fans point fingers and lay blame on a creator or manager just because the product isn't what they personally wanted, or something didn't turn out right. I've worked in the art field and I know that this is alchemy, not science, and the best looking ideas on paper don't always translate to real-world success. So I hate being one of the guys who blames Didio and says he's got a personal bias that is getting in the way of basic business and DC's revenue stream.

But no matter how hard I try or how many ways I twist stuff around, I can't think of any other reason for Dick's situation. And I don't work in publishing or DC so there's tons of stuff particular to this industry and this company that I don't know. And maybe there's a really good business reason for all of this hidden in there. I'm in business but every company and industry has their own quirks, yknow? But really.....given what I do know, the only answer that makes any sense is that Didio and/or whoever green lights this stuff, has a personal bias that is getting in the way and seemingly costing DC a lot of potential profit. I suspect that if comic sales were worth noticing at all, then WB (and now AT&T) would put a stop to it. But comics sales are so minor nobody notices or cares.

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## AmiMizuno

The thing it's a Dido thing. He wanted Dick to be killed off. So I feel this might be one reason. Another thing is who the editor is. If Dick can get either his own or into another editor it would probably help him more. I think one reason why comic sales are somewhat low is the fact we have less places to get it. I mean comic sales are slowly increasing. With the help of kid comics and the fact more and more schools are using comics to teach comics to read. This can help bring new readers.

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## Restingvoice

Oh right. The editor changed. The good one was fired because he fought King on using David Finch wasn't it

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## Ascended

> The thing it's a Dido thing. He wanted Dick to be killed off. So I feel this might be one reason. Another thing is who the editor is. If Dick can get either his own or into another editor it would probably help him more. I think one reason why comic sales are somewhat low is the fact we have less places to get it. I mean comic sales are slowly increasing. With the help of kid comics and the fact more and more schools are using comics to teach comics to read. This can help bring new readers.


Yeah, we know for a fact that Didio personally isn't a Nightwing fan since he's said as much several times on social media and in interviews and at conventions. But that shouldn't be enough to cause this sort of trouble; any moron of a businessman can recognize that even if a product isn't to their personal liking, it can still appeal to plenty of others. And Nightwing is pretty proven to be successful across media formats, with successful showings in.....basically everything. He's virtually one bad CW show away from being on the Flash or GL level of A-list.

The editor is an issue as well, but how much of an issue depends on whether the higher-ups are leaning on the Bat office, and how hard. A lot of this crap might start and stop with the Bat office, and moving Dick somewhere else (like the Super office for example) might be a great move for the character. But if higher level management are forcing this treatment then nothing changes. If this is Didio pushing his own bias then he'll lean on whatever editor has control of Dick and the end result will be largely the same. 

Now, if we could get Dick under an editor or creator with enough pull to do what they want, that likely solves the problem. If King or Bendis or Snyder decide they want to make Nightwing the biggest gods damn thing DC has ever seen, Didio's most likely going to let them; he wants those creators to be happy.

Odd as it may sound, I really really wish we could get Dick into the Super office. I feel like his best chances right now are with Bendis (of all people).

But we've said all this and made the same complaints for years! So here's a question: 

What's your favorite piece of Nightwing merchandise? Whether you own it or not?

----------


## L.H.

> The thing it's a Dido thing. He wanted Dick to be killed off. So I feel this might be one reason. Another thing is who the editor is. If Dick can get either his own or into another editor it would probably help him more. I think one reason why comic sales are somewhat low is the fact we have less places to get it. I mean comic sales are slowly increasing. With the help of kid comics and the fact more and more schools are using comics to teach comics to read. This can help bring new readers.


I can't totally blame Didio. He wanted to kill Dick, but also allowed Morrison to make him Batman. Whatever happened to the Titans, was planned togheter with King, and King didn't want Dick in his City Of Bane (i don't believe what he said about the fix, he lied before). 
Now Tynion wants Dick back, so he will came back. That's all.
 Didio fault is keeping Nightwing as a Batman sideckick book, where everything that's happening is because of the main Batman title (since New52). That's what I blame him for.

----------


## Godlike13

I don't know how much it has to do with the state of DC in general. Like Lobdell being given the book, and being able to campaign, says Harras to me. The old guard at DC in general seems to have a problem with Nightwing, or just don't care. Guys like Lobdell and Jurgan's should not be go to guys anymore for anything. Unless they purposely want a book to sell out of the top 100. But somehow they keep managing to land books like Nightwing and Flash Forward. My guess is priory seem to be 5G, and so books like Nightwing they are happy to let just be fodder for guys like Lobdell and Jurgans. Despite the new character lows month after month.

----------


## dietrich

DC seems to be an Old boys club. Stuff like King being able to get an editor ousted, Bendis and having so much creative control despite his sales being mediocre. Tynion being able to land a Bat  title due to Synder. It seems to be who you know rather than merit and if characters don't have someone with a seat at this club fighting for them then they get misused.

I don't know how they check performance or keep track of how characters are performing and decide where to invest resources but they are clearly overlooking a lot. So many characters/IP's could be maximised/have the potential to be developed into something stronger and more competitive not just the Nightwing Brand but they are been wasted.

----------


## Godlike13

Bendis brings in other talent though and such. So I get him having influence. To a point at least. They have to try to get a return on that investment.

----------


## dietrich

> Bendis brings in other talent though and such. So I get him having influence. To a point at least. They have to try to get a return on that investment.


Does he? I wasn't aware. What other talent has he brought in and wouldn't DC be able to land talent on their own?

----------


## Godlike13

Fraction, some artists, etc.

----------


## Frontier

> He lost his virginity in college to a girl who already has a boyfriend if I remember correctly. Nightwing Year One? 
> Don't know about the second girl.





> He lost his virginity to Liu when he was 16. Marv Wolfman created her during his Nightwing run specifically for that reason. In the end, she was using him to have access to WayneTech.


Yeah, I'd kind of prefer his First being Kori.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I can't totally blame Didio. He wanted to kill Dick, but also allowed Morrison to make him Batman. Whatever happened to the Titans, was planned togheter with King, and King didn't want Dick in his City Of Bane (i don't believe what he said about the fix, he lied before). 
> Now Tynion wants Dick back, so he will came back. That's all.
>  Didio fault is keeping Nightwing as a Batman sideckick book, where everything that's happening is because of the main Batman title (since New52). That's what I blame him for.


He allowed Morrison to make Dick Batman because he allowed any writer with a good reputation to do anything. 

He allowed Morrison to basically keep his New 52 Superman a secret to the point where George Perez has to scramble writing present-day New 52 Superman because he wasn't told anything, and eventually quit because of it.
He allowed King to fight an editor and win, take advantage of the whole BatCat marriage stunt, Heroes in Crisis stunt, 25 issues of Depressed Batman stunt, Ric Grayson stunt (even though it's Didio himself who invited the Nightwing writer who later quit) 
He allowed Bendis to come in and basically trash the Super Family Tomasi and Jurgens have been building so he can make his own Legion of Superheroes.

...

Disclaimer, I don't know if it's actually Didio or someone else, but someone allowed all those things because they trust their star writers too much. I'm sorry, I got triggered remembering the number of times they let these people just do anything they like.

----------


## K7P5V

> Yeah, I'd kind of prefer his First being Kori.


Agreed. All-time favorite couple from DC:

----------


## AmiMizuno

He knows a great editor. We need to somehow have Dick outside of Batman's editor office. Which would never happen? If there is a way within the Batman office he should get his own.

----------


## Godlike13

Marv Wolfman's Nightwing run was pretty shit. A real punch in the gut using it basically as a platform for his upcoming Vigilante book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have to ask. Is Dick actually heir to Wayne ? Or Damian? I mean due to the fact Dick is consider kinda of like the first born does he have the heir rights ?

----------


## Rakiduam

> I have to ask. Is Dick actually heir to Wayne ? Or Damian? I mean due to the fact Dick is consider kinda of like the first born does he have the heir rights ?


Not even before the New 52 was Dick an heir to Wayne, it was Tim.

----------


## Godlike13

It was Dick. He literally inherited a Wayne  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## L.H.

> He allowed Morrison to make Dick Batman because he allowed any writer with a good reputation to do anything.


That's exactly my point. Nightwing book (and Titans, too) keeps living in the shadow of the great writer with the great title. The same happened with Damian, during Snyder Batman run: he didn't want to write Damian, and Robin just disappeared. 

About the Wayne heritage: in the first Nightwing Annual, Bruce stated that Dick was his heir to Wayne Corp. Then Tim was adopted and started acting like the heir. Then again, when Bruce died, Dick stated that he didn't want to run Wayne Corp, and Damian took his place. Right now, seems that Dick is kinda the heir of Batman, while Damian is the heir of Wayne Corp, probably togheter with Tim. I bet Jason will have the cars  :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Not even before the New 52 was Dick an heir to Wayne, it was Tim.


Should Dick ever be the heir ?

----------


## Digifiend

There's a reason why Dick isn't the heir. He was never officially adopted. Whereas Tim was, after his real parents died, and Cassandra Cain had been too. Both of those were retconned out when New 52 happened. Damian, as his actual biological son, would be the legitimate heir nowadays.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What wait? Why wasn't he officially adopted? Weird

----------


## Restingvoice

He was officially adopted, but it came in late. 

As for why it didn't happen immediately, it's because Bruce was too young at that time and didn't think of himself as a parent. In some interpretation, I think Bruce also feels like he doesn't have the right to claim parenthood from the Graysons, though I don't remember where I got this one.

Bruce and Dick kinda just happen. A natural mix of two orphans who lost their parents to crime, crime fighters, mentor-apprentice, brotherhood, guardian-ward, maybe father-son but they never say it. Two people having fun and make the best of their situation.

Then before they realize it, Dick has already grown up and left the Manor. So Bruce also felt like it's not needed anymore or that it's too late.

----------


## Drako

Preview of Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel

https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...50649844420608

----------


## Rac7d*

> Preview of Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel
> 
> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...50649844420608


Can we preorder this

----------


## Frontier

> Preview of Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel
> 
> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...50649844420608


Looks nice. Seems they'll acknowledge a little more of his Romani heritage.

----------


## Godlike13

> He was officially adopted, but it came in late. 
> 
> As for why it didn't happen immediately, it's because Bruce was too young at that time and didn't think of himself as a parent. In some interpretation, I think Bruce also feels like he doesn't have the right to claim parenthood from the Graysons, though I don't remember where I got this one.
> 
> Bruce and Dick kinda just happen. A natural mix of two orphans who lost their parents to crime, crime fighters, mentor-apprentice, brotherhood, guardian-ward, maybe father-son but they never say it. Two people having fun and make the best of their situation.
> 
> Then before they realize it, Dick has already grown up and left the Manor. So Bruce also felt like it's not needed anymore or that it's too late.


Late, but still before Tim and Cass.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So should he have been officially adopted? How old genreally is Bruce when he meets Dick?

----------


## Restingvoice

> So should he have been officially adopted? How old generally is Bruce when he meets Dick?


I honestly don't care since it's just papers while they already have a legendary bond, and Dick doesn't personally care about the Wayne wealth or inheritance. 

Bronze Age, Bruce is 28 when Dick is 18 but he started as a kid, so... umm... let's say 22 and 12 at the oldest.
Post Crisis, Bruce is 28, Dick is 8
New 52, Bruce is 26, Dick is 16
So I guess on average he's mid-twenties

----------


## nhienphan2808

> I honestly don't care since it's just papers while they already have a legendary bond, and Dick doesn't personally care about the Wayne wealth or inheritance. 
> 
> Bronze Age, Bruce is 28 when Dick is 18 but he started as a kid, so... umm... let's say 22 and 12 at the oldest.
> Post Crisis, Bruce is 28, Dick is 8
> New 52, Bruce is 26, Dick is 16
> So I guess on average he's mid-twenties


I think Post Crisis Bruce was 27 and Dick was 12.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean I guess 8 to 12 would be a good age for Dick to be adopted. Maybe official adopted. I mean for the most part what should the bond be father and son? Or siblings

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think Post Crisis Bruce was 27 and Dick was 12.


He returned to Gotham at 25 and Dick came in at Year Three, so I guess he can still be 27
The 8 one I got from Devin Grayson run but I think he is older in Year One

----------


## Aahz

> The 8 one I got from Devin Grayson run but I think he is older in Year One


The 8 is kind of non sense. It is mentioned in some comics, but in comics that show is origin story or that are set at the beginning of his career he is usually more like 12.

Btw. for teh Golden Age it was retconned the Bruce was Born in 1915 and Dick in 1928, and they met the first time in 1940, so Bruce was 25 and Dick 12.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Golden  Age Dick also doesnt act like 8 to me. I will forever find it funny that Golden Age heroes were all like early 20s, yet Golden Age Bruce acts and thinks MUCH more pragmatic and adult than any later Bruce who was older than him, and [GA] much more explicitly a dad to Dick. 

I have to admit tho i like Bruce younger than 25 when he started, and meeting Dick 1 year in rather than 2 year. Year One is not something i trust for mainstream Batman. 

I avoid Devin Grayson in everything Batfam, really. That includes the adoption.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The 8 is kind of non sense. It is mentioned in some comics, but in comics that show is origin story or that are set at the beginning of his career he is usually more like 12.
> 
> Btw. for teh Golden Age it was retconned the Bruce was Born in 1915 and Dick in 1928, and they met the first time in 1940, so Bruce was 25 and Dick 12.


Originally he was 8 it’s changed many times over the years and will continue to since they try to minimize Bruce’s age difference

----------


## Aahz

> Originally he was 8


Not really, him starting at 8 was mentioned the first time in Marv Wolfmans NTT.

----------


## Digifiend

Funny thing is, NTT also established that the original Teen Titans weren't even teens yet - 20 year old Dick had supposedly known Donna for eight years - which would mean they were 12 when the TT were formed. And Garfield Logan had been their peer in the 70s series, but was three years younger than them in NTT. Wolfman clearly didn't do the maths right.

----------


## AmiMizuno

More Dick statues 

37D15548-570E-416D-906A-A83EFD2759C1.jpg

----------


## Pohzee

https://pagesix.com/2020/01/10/abc-t...ink-penis/amp/
A whole new meaning to Big Dick Little Dick.

----------


## Jackalope89

> *More Dick statues* 
> 
> 37D15548-570E-416D-906A-A83EFD2759C1.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m curious. Given the fact his name in some continuities his name came from Clarke’s home planet.  About a guy who made himself  fly. Show Nightwing have made his suit somewhat capabilities to fly? Or thanks to his acrobatics that’s good enough

----------


## Valentonis

I think that flight might be a bit excessive for the type of hero Nightwing is, but I know in some continuities he has Spider-man like gliders under his arms, which I wouldn't mind seeing in the main universe.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I’m curious. Given the fact his name in some continuities his name came from Clarke’s home planet.  About a guy who made himself  fly. Show Nightwing have made his suit somewhat capabilities to fly? Or thanks to his acrobatics that’s good enough


The BTAS version and the first Rebirth suit have an underarm glider. He doesn't even need a grappling hook if he falls down around a construction area, but it's useful to have if he jumps from somewhere high into an open area with no bars to swing around or gargoyles to grapple on the way down.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True, flight might be much. I guess in the sense if the underarm gliders could be attached to part of his suit. That they can retract. By that, I mean how some of his suit designs have the stripes go all across his arms and part of his back.

----------


## K7P5V

> I think that flight might be a bit excessive for the type of hero Nightwing is, but I know in some continuities he has Spider-man like gliders under his arms, which I wouldn't mind seeing in the main universe.


Correct, and here's the proof:

----------


## dietrich

No, Dick's background as a performer is reflected in the way he moves across the rooftops. He's a showman and it shows in the way artists draw him moving across the city.

I like him parkouring his way over flying.




Look at the show off. 

I love Batman's face here. He looks like disapproves but Nightwing gives Zero f**ks lol

----------


## Drako

> No, Dick's background as a performer is reflected in the way he moves across the rooftops. He's a showman and it shows in the way artists draw him moving across the city.
> 
> I like him parkouring his way over flying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the show off. 
> 
> I love Batman's face here. He looks like disapproves but Nightwing gives Zero f**ks lol


Dan mora is just awesome!
I would love to have him as the main artist of the book or just doing the covers.

----------


## Digifiend

> Im curious. Given the fact his name in some continuities his name came from Clarkes home planet.  About a guy who made himself  fly. Show Nightwing have made his suit somewhat capabilities to fly? Or thanks to his acrobatics thats good enough


The acrobatics is enough. Don't forget, his family when performing at the circus were known as the FLYING Graysons.

----------


## dietrich

> Dan mora is just awesome!
> I would love to have him as the main artist of the book or just doing the covers.


Dan is indeed awesome. 

This cover is so alive and full of energy especially Nightwing. Dan manged to capture Dick's personality and charm in one shot.
The readers eyes can't help but be drawn to him.

He looks so happy and carefree which makes me sad since this was just before he got RICed.
I'd take Dan on a Nightwing title or Travis Moore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The acrobatics is enough. Don't forget, his family when performing at the circus were known as the FLYING Graysons.


Would the armgliders be also too much?

----------


## K7P5V

> Originally Posted by AmiMizuno
> 
> 
> Would the armgliders be also too much?
> 
> 
> The acrobatics is enough. Don't forget, his family when performing at the circus were known as the FLYING Graysons.


Completely agree. Just thought those "arm-gliders" would come in handy as a _back-up plan_ in case of emergencies.  :Wink:

----------


## Badou

I feel like a lot of artists go way overboard with the "acrobatic" stuff where it just looks ridiculous. Booth is one that comes to mind. Just odd body positions that don't really make any practical sense. I'd love for Dick to have more useful things like gliders on his suit or anything, but they will never do that because they want Nightwing to continue to be a Daredevil knockoff. 




> Not really, him starting at 8 was mentioned the first time in Marv Wolfmans NTT.


Pretty sure him being 8 was the first age given to him in the original Golden Age Batman run I think. It is why the Young Justice show had him be 8 to reference that.

----------


## Ascended

> I’m curious. Given the fact his name in some continuities his name came from Clarke’s home planet.  About a guy who made himself  fly. Show Nightwing have made his suit somewhat capabilities to fly? Or thanks to his acrobatics that’s good enough


I would like to get the gliders back. As others have said, acrobatics and parkour is where Dick lives; that's how he gets around and that shouldn't change; it's as central to his heroics as Superman's flight poses. But the gliders would be useful in a lot of situations too, and it's something you don't usually see from the other Bats, or any other street level DC vigilante, for that matter.

But then again, if I got my way, I'd have Dick fighting some more powerful superhumans and wearing a costume akin to the Batman Beyond suit in its abilities. Minor enhancements to strength and agility, lots of utility belt type gadgets, glider wings and small jet boots to provide a boost, stealth options, and additional protection. Something that would compliment and enhance the way Dick moves and fights, not change or replace it. But as I've said, I'd pull Dick out of the street level and get him away from the Bat-lite crap, so anyone who likes Dick just being another Bat sidekick isn't going to agree with me.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Dan mora is just awesome!
> I would love to have him as the main artist of the book or just doing the covers.


I would kill to get Dan Mora on Nightwing. He's been one of my favorites ever since I discovered his art with Klaus. I mean, if an artist was better suited to Nightwing than Mora, I don't know them!

----------


## Restingvoice

Favorite Flying Graysons costume, go!

Green like ASBAR?
Batman Forever Red like Robin?
New 52 Blue like Nightwing?
Many colors like in Gotham?
White like in Young Justice?
The fully covered Bombshell one?
and more

Collar and cape?
Gymnast leotard?
Shirtless vest?
Mask?
Sash?

----------


## Drako

> Favorite Flying Graysons costume, go!
> 
> Green like ASBAR?
> Batman Forever Red like Robin?
> New 52 Blue like Nightwing?
> Many colors like in Gotham?
> White like in Young Justice?
> The fully covered Bombshell one?
> and more
> ...


I really like this one from ASBAR.



I usually prefer when they have costumes that don't look like his Robin costume, it makes the people of Gotham even more stupid to not figure out his secret identity.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Makes me wonder. What would it be a dumb idea to have Dick actually have his parents alive. They survived but Bruce still feels bad

Nothing cannon. A what if

----------


## K7P5V

> Favorite Flying Graysons costume, go!
> 
> Green like ASBAR?
> Batman Forever Red like Robin?
> New 52 Blue like Nightwing?
> Many colors like in Gotham?
> White like in Young Justice?
> The fully covered Bombshell one?
> and more
> ...


Probably not a popular choice, but I'm rather partial to this one:

----------


## Valentonis

As contrived as it may be I kinda love it when the Flying Graysons are depicted with the Nightwing colors, it brings Dick's journey full circle in a way.

----------


## Digifiend

> Probably not a popular choice, but I'm rather partial to this one:


Ah, I can see the Nightwing influence there. High collar like the 1984 suit, the yellow secondary colour - but the yellow part on the chest is bird shaped like his late 90s onwards costumes.

----------


## Digifiend

> Makes me wonder. What would it be a dumb idea to have Dick actually have his parents alive. They survived but Bruce still feels bad
> 
> Nothing cannon. A what if


Come to think of it, nowadays, they SHOULD have survived, because there'd be a safety net.

----------


## AmiMizuno

It depends there are acts that don’t use safety nets. They do it for the scary value

----------


## Restingvoice

> I really like this one from ASBAR.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually prefer when they have costumes that don't look like his Robin costume, it makes the people of Gotham even more stupid to not figure out his secret identity.


The G logo for Grayson is a nice touch. 

I also prefer the ones that don't look like Robin or Nightwing, so either ASBAR or Young Justice

Oh, and since I like the mask and open half vest, I'm going with Young Justice.

----------


## Frontier

> Favorite Flying Graysons costume, go!
> 
> Green like ASBAR?
> Batman Forever Red like Robin?
> New 52 Blue like Nightwing?
> Many colors like in Gotham?
> White like in Young Justice?
> The fully covered Bombshell one?
> and more
> ...


I like the New 52 blue. Mary's especially looked great. 

Gymnast leotard.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious with the Flying Grayson's outfit shouldn't his robin costume be designed by that? Similar design but different color?

----------


## Rakiduam

> As contrived as it may be I kinda love it when the Flying Graysons are depicted with the Nightwing colors, it brings Dick's journey full circle in a way.


Once upon a time they had Robin's colors, one more thing they took from Dick so everybody else could have it. Robin went from being Dick's personal creation to just a suit that goes with the part time job, I bet Batman even charges them for the uniform.

----------


## Robanker

> Once upon a time they had Robin's colors, one more thing they took from Dick so everybody else could have it. Robin went from being Dick's personal creation to just a suit that goes with the part time job, I bet Batman even charges them for the uniform.


Come on, Bruce knows better than to try and take a kid's money. He just had Dick sign away all licensing and merchandising rights to Robin during the oath. Why shake down for a penny when you can have a fortune.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm curious with the Flying Grayson's outfit shouldn't his robin costume be designed by that? Similar design but different color?


Robin is a nickname from his mom, so the Flying Grayson's costume doesn't have to be the inspiration for Robin. He just needs to use the Robin bird color and based the design on Robin Hood's tunic, so they can be separate.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Come on, Bruce knows better than to try and take a kid's money. He just had Dick sign away all licensing and merchandising rights to Robin during the oath. Why shake down for a penny when you can have a fortune.


Of everything but the movements, that's why the others can't use them.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #68 preview

https://www.superherohype.com/comics...ng-68#/slide/1

----------


## WonderNight

> Nightwing #68 preview
> 
> https://www.superherohype.com/comics...ng-68#/slide/1


Man what the heck is even canon anymore? It's all over the place.

----------


## Ansa

> Nightwing #68 preview
> 
> https://www.superherohype.com/comics...ng-68#/slide/1


Well...at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel. Would have been nicer if that happened a year ago though.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Man what the heck is even canon anymore? It's all over the place.


Almost everything is canon but didn't happen the same way, in short, it's a new canon. Post-Doomsday Clock we're officially in the 1G to 5G timeline table that Bleeding Cool leaked a while back. 

So Judas Contract is back as it was said on that time table, Barbara's Batgirl is wearing her classic costume and she looks older, Dick did propose to Babs right before Infinite Crisis that's also happened...

The difference is Bludhaven survived Infinite Crisis in this timeline, and he's wearing his New 52 costume in the later Robin year, while as a child he wears the classic Robin costume but with pants. 

I just wish this isn't Jurgens so I can say with confidence when and where which canon happened because now I'm second-guessing The Flying Grayson's death in the last Annual. What if DC actually decided to use the ASBAR version?

By the way, in the new timeline, Barbara was shot by The Joker around the time Jason died as usual but recovered during the Final Crisis era. 

And... ah ship, Iguana Lady Shiva is there. Whatever. Dick says he's confused about which memory is his, so I'm just gonna chalk it up to Jurgens, Manhattan, and his memory until we get a new writer.

----------


## Godlike13

Does it matter, he is still god damn Ric. Reinstating Dick’s various canon is utterly pointless when they still refuse to let go of Ric. It’s like giving a million dollars to an infant. What the hell is he gonna do with it. More crap for him to whine and complain about. Oh, joy. It wasn’t me, I never met them. Will you please shut the hell up already. You should get your own damn situation by now, you stupid child. Stop bitching and complaining about it to us. No one cares anymore, and we aren’t anymore happy about it then you are. You whiny little turd. 
Again this just goes to show how utterly out of touch those on the book are, Ric has driven the Dick fans away. So what exactly do they think those pages accomplish. They continue to have no clue who Ric is for or who their audience even is on the title anymore. So now they are going to try to cater to Dick Grayson fans with pages like these, showing how they are reinstating his full history, while at the same time are still telling them to go f themselves with Ric. Ric is right, this doesn’t make sense. But hell it never fing did. 

And I’m sure with the thorough research displayed with the likes of Talon, the Court, and using ASB&R origin Jurgans will know what to do with Dick’s full history lol.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Watch this be not cannon in a few months

----------


## cc008

> Watch this be not cannon in a few months


That is fine by me.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

I appreciate the return of Redwing(N52 Suit).

----------


## Rac7d*

> Man what the heck is even canon anymore? It's all over the place.


This is kind of a mess but its the kind of mess I like
We are on our way back boys and girls!!!

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious if Nightwing was ever given his own editor who should it be?

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing #68 preview
> 
> https://www.superherohype.com/comics...ng-68#/slide/1


What a gigantic mess. All those shitty New 52 elements thrown in with a bunch of continuity that makes no sense. 

I guess this is my first time saying how much I hate that ugly New 52 Robin suit in the new decade, haha. What a garbage costume. Looked so out of place with all the other classic costumes.

----------


## Rac7d*

If ric/dick remembers then he needs embrace his family immediately

----------


## Robanker

Not buying that Dick is back until he's in the Nightwing costume slinging zingers again. Until then I'm refusing to buy Nightwing. They gotta COMMIT to bringing him back. And please ditch the updated Robin suit. More than anyone else, Dick should always have rocked the classic suit. He owned it. Stop being ashamed.

----------


## Digifiend

> I appreciate the return of Redwing(N52 Suit).


It's been back in use for a while. One of the fake Nightwings uses it. The other three use the Rebirth, 1984 and early 90s costumes.

----------


## WonderNight

> This is kind of a mess but it’s the kind of mess I like
> We are on our way back boys and girls!!!


on the way back to what? And screw the bat family get nightwing out of there!

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t think they even know, which is why they are continuing to mindlessly drag this out. Still not ready to put that work in to figure out what is next. So in the end they’ll get to that point where they run out of road to drag this out, and so will just throw out the same old same old. Though at that point maybe the book’s rank will be so low they just cancel it, and then those responsible for the book will finally get what they truly want and won’t have to work on it.

----------


## Badou

The book is stalling until Tynion's Batman story in the Summer I think, but they are also stalling and not doing any creator shifts on the book because of 5G too. No point in shaking things up in there eyes when 5G is around the corner. So there are two outside stories controlling the entire direction of the Nightwing book. It is such a mess. 

Jurgens is on it to drag out his story until then I bet, and then we will find out if Jurgens is staying on or if they will bring in someone new. I still think Jurgens is going to continue to be on the title for 5G and he is going to try and bring in his Batman Beyond ideas into the Nightwing book. Mainly having Dick become mayor of Bludhaven. Since it is such an easy excuse to not have Dick be Batman and have Luke be Batman, as well as keep Dick out of the JL team, because Dick is sooooooo concerned about Bludhaven and can't leave it.

----------


## Restingvoice

The Joker story started in March. So yeah, they delay it for the summer event. 

Had they end it with The Court arc, it will end in February just in time for March, his 80th anniversary, but Nah, they gotta do a summer event. 

I don't know how long they planned this summer event. Is this why Cobb spare the Nightwings? Because having Grandpappy Talon kill the fakes to pave way for Dick to return on his anniversary sounds make more sense. The... most sense out of anything else that's been planned for this forsaken series.

----------


## Godlike13

Damn, Badou got banned.

Btw do these hit and runs by Moore frustrate anyone else? Dude is good, far too good for the writing, but it’s like just a couple pages here and there just to fluff the previews. Though I guess it’s not like any of the other various random artists they get for the book leave an impression. Still...

----------


## Rac7d*

> on the way back to what? And screw the bat family get nightwing out of there!


Out of where?

----------


## Godlike13

The Bat office I assume.

----------


## Blue22

> Not buying that Dick is back until he's in the Nightwing costume slinging zingers again. Until then I'm refusing to buy Nightwing. They gotta COMMIT to bringing him back. And please ditch the updated Robin suit. More than anyone else, Dick should always have rocked the classic suit. He owned it. Stop being ashamed.


Unpopular opinion: Even for being a product of its time, the original Robin costume was incredibly silly (and just...not very good). Now, it's not just silly, but kind of a dangerous thing for Batman to have a powerless child wear while fighting crime in Gotham, of all places (as if letting him be Robin in the first place wasn't already irresponsible). It was essentially just a t-shirt, vest, and speedos. I'm glad they updated the look. The boy needed to be covered up lol

----------


## Rac7d*

> The Bat office I assume.


Why the titans team has been annihilated

----------


## Ascended

I'm with Blue22; the classic Robin suit is, of course, a classic. But for the love of god, put some pants on that kid! 

I don't need the original suit changed so much it becomes a generic, modern Robin suit that any Gotham sidekick could wear, but it's not going to hurt anyone if we added pants. I mean, Gotham is in the Northeast. You really want a kid running around on rooftops, 2 o'clock in the morning, in February? Poor kid would have frostbite in the worst places!

----------


## Restingvoice

Don't worry, he wears a Bat-thermal underpants

Batman 66 issue whatever... Mr. Freeze, I think




> Btw do these hit and runs by Moore frustrate anyone else? Dude is good, far too good for the writing, but it’s like just a couple pages here and there just to fluff the previews. Though I guess it’s not like any of the other various random artists they get for the book leave an impression. Still...


I want him to stay away from Ric because he brings in an audience. 

By the way, I checked Comichron for November, congratulations to Red Hood finally selling higher than Ric.

----------


## Godlike13

Issue was just predictable and boring. Par for the course with Jurgans. In the end the newly revealed big bads of the direction do nothing, and Ric lives on to waste another 6 months or so. Despite the new memories and reinstated history. Making them pointless and completely useless. So good thing they put that in there to reflect Doomsday Clock. But Bea and Ric are definitely Not Over. As if anyone gives a crap about that...

----------


## Digifiend

I think the fact he didn't dump Bea upon remembering he proposed to Babs is a death flag. Bea will be disposed of when he does go back to normal, and I won't be surprised if Joker kills her. Can see the four fake Nightwings also falling to the clown prince of crime.

----------


## Zaresh

> Don't worry, he wears a Bat-thermal underpants
> 
> Batman 66 issue whatever... Mr. Freeze, I think
> 
> 
> 
> I want him to stay away from Ric because he brings in an audience. 
> 
> By the way, I checked Comichron for November, congratulations to Red Hood finally selling higher than Ric.


I don't think it's news that makes us that much happy. I mean; it would have been awesome, if NW were selling like a year or year and half ago. That would mean we got better, and not just less worse than NW. NW selling 20k... it's so weird. 21k for us is good with variants. It's our normal, or maybe a little bit better than normal. We were selling 18k in October, I think.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think the fact he didn't dump Bea upon remembering he proposed to Babs is a death flag. Bea will be disposed of when he does go back to normal, and I won't be surprised if Joker kills her. Can see the four fake Nightwings also falling to the clown prince of crime.


I still don’t understand how Talon didn’t kill her, or any of them. Joker better watch out for Condor Red LoL.

----------


## Frontier

> Not buying that Dick is back until he's in the Nightwing costume slinging zingers again. Until then I'm refusing to buy Nightwing. They gotta COMMIT to bringing him back. And please ditch the updated Robin suit. More than anyone else, Dick should always have rocked the classic suit. He owned it. Stop being ashamed.


I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.

If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.
> 
> If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.


Do they have any toy line that uses that costume? It could be because of that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I still don’t understand how Talon didn’t kill her, or any of them. Joker better watch out for Condor Red LoL.


That's why I think initially he was meant to kill them but they change the plan once Tynion's onboard for Batman and make the summer event.




> I'm surprised they've stayed as committed to that New 52 Robin suit as they have.
> 
> If Jim Lee designed it, sure, but I don't think he did.


Yeah I mean they already put pants on kid Robin costume, just wear that until Nightwing.

It's Rocafort. 




> Do they have any toy line that uses that costume? It could be because of that.


No, the only New 52 Robin to have a toy is Damian. The rest are on their New 52 present identity

By the way, I saw some spoiler pages, and honestly, Travis Moore is the only one who can make dirt mask Ric and his standard torn black t-shirt and jeans to look like a deliberate makeup and fashion choice.

----------


## Zaresh

> No, the only New 52 Robin to have a toy is Damian. The rest are on their New 52 present identity
> 
> By the way, I saw some spoiler pages, and honestly, Travis Moore is the only one who can make dirt mask Ric and his standard torn black t-shirt and jeans to look like a deliberate makeup and fashion choice.


Travis Moore could make anything look pretty or stylish tbh. I would love much, much, much more of his work here or anywhere. His Dick is such eyecatcher that is my default design for him now. Perfect balance of handsome yet heroic and tough.

Edit: if it isn't because a toy, then, it could be because they don't think people dislike it, I guess.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Yeah I don't mind the N52 Robin suit. I just wish they gave it an actual belt with pouches. Something similar to DCU Titans' Dick Robin suit.

----------


## Restingvoice

Dick's memory of Alfred, Batman Pennyworth RIP #1
aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzMvNDY5L29yaWdpbmFsL1Blbm55d29ydGhfMzNfY29s.jpg

Yes, he's in the book with the family, still in Ric Grayson hair.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's memory of Alfred, Batman Pennyworth RIP #1
> aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNzMvNDY5L29yaWdpbmFsL1Blbm55d29ydGhfMzNfY29s.jpg
> 
> Yes, he's in the book with the family, still in Ric Grayson hair.


Hopefully he grows it out 

I would have like a memory from when he was younger

----------


## dietrich

> Travis Moore could make anything look pretty or stylish tbh. I would love much, much, much more of his work here or anywhere. His Dick is such eyecatcher that is my default design for him now. Perfect balance of handsome yet heroic and tough.
> 
> Edit: if it isn't because a toy, then, it could be because they don't think people dislike it, I guess.


I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.

----------


## Zaresh

> I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.


I have a problem with the arms, to be honest. The waist V shape is a bit weak, but it makes the costume look like some kind of performing costume, so I don't mind. But those arms, er... I would rather invert the colours (green where black, black where green) and tone down those protection-things-whatever-that-is that makes me think of a turtle shell :/.

But that's my preference.
I think the classic costume is cute, but it's not flattering, for a better word, when you put it on a teenager or an adult. Not to mention that it doesn't make much sense from a tactical perspective, because it doesn't offer protection.

Edit: what I mean is... Yeah, there must be a lot of people that at least doesn't hate it (like you, or me). So they may not be interested in changing it yet because of that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I actually don't mind the new52 Robin suit. I know it's not as Iconic as the leotards but I like it.


I like the one from titans

----------


## Katana500

Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May.  A group called the Condors want to recruit him.

----------


## Claude

> Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May.  A group called the Condors want to recruit him.


Solicit for that story calls him "Dick", though - and the cover has him in the old Nightwing costume. So.... Maybe there's hope? 

Still Jurgens though.

----------


## Celgress

> Looks like the Ric situation will continue into May.  A group called the Condors want to recruit him.


Oh god, why just why!?  :Mad:

----------


## Digifiend

A bit of confusion there. There's actually TWO Nightwing solicits, he has an annual. He's called Ric in the solicit for the regular issue. Perhaps #71 is when he fully reverts to normal?


NIGHTWING #71
written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET and TRAVIS MOORE
cover by MIKE PERKINS
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
Having a chat with the Clown Prince of Crime is scary enough…being captured, tied down, and forced to listen to him is something else! Especially when you’re Ric Grayson, and The Joker just wants you out of action so he can get to the Dark Knight. With no idea what his history with The Joker might be, Ric doesn’t find this situation one bit funny.
ON SALE 04.15.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.


NIGHTWING ANNUAL #3
written by DAN JURGENS
art by SCOTT GODLEWSKI
cover by HOWARD PORTER
Dick Grayson has been many things in his life—Robin, agent of Spyral, even Batman...but will he have a choice when the Condors try to recruit him for their cause? And will they take no for an answer? A thrilling, high-octane adventure awaits over the skies of Gotham City!
ON SALE 04.29.20
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | DC

----------


## Godlike13

Dammit, they are gonna leave Jurgan's on after Ric aren't they. They are not gonna bothered to give Nightwing a proper return, of course not. Can't even bothered to give him a new costume. Just hey, Nightwing's back. Been a hobo for 2 year, but that has no effect. Here is some boring Nightwing story, by the same creator who has been writhing Ric for the last year. Seriously just kill Dick off then if your just gonna have Jurgan's follow Ric up with whatever boring by the numbers crap he can come up with. You don't get more lame duck then Condor Red. His ideas are so boring, and he doesn't sell for shit. Get him off the book already. Jurgan's telling boring traditional Nightwing stories isn't any better then him telling lazy terrible Ric stories. My stomach hurts. I really hope this is not what we are gonna be getting for after Ric. They can't seriously can't just have him jump back into the suit he was wearing before like the last 2 years hasn't happened and they didn't completely bury the character.

----------


## dietrich

Is this the crossover event that Tynion mentioned?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dammit, they are gonna leave Jurgan's on after Ric aren't they. They are not gonna bothered to give Nightwing a proper return, of course not. Can't even bothered to give him a new costume. Just hey, Nightwing's back. Been a hobo for 2 year, but that has no effect. Here is some boring Nightwing story, by the same creator who has been writhing Ric for the last year. Seriously just kill Dick off then if your just gonna have Jurgan's follow Ric up with whatever boring by the numbers crap he can come up with. You don't get more lame duck then Condor Red. His ideas are so boring, and he doesn't sell for shit. Get him off the book already. Jurgan's telling boring traditional Nightwing stories isn't any better then him telling lazy terrible Ric stories. My stomach hurts. I really hope this is not what we are gonna be getting for after Ric.


Why does he need a new costume ?

----------


## Godlike13

> Why does he need a new costume?


Cause you can't just follow up Ric with the same old crap. Do something to sell Dick's return as a new start for Nightwing.

----------


## L.H.

My two cents: Joker War is the Summer event teased by Tynion, and between Nightwing#71 and the Annual, we have a Batman (with Joker) and a Batgirl issue (with KGBeast).
So, I'm betting on Dick coming back in the Batman#93 issue (as Tynion stated, he wanted to bring Dick back on Batman), and the Annual being a set up for his new start (in Gotham?)
Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?

----------


## Ascended

> Cause you can't just follow up Ric with the same old crap. Do something to sell Dick's return as a new start for Nightwing.


If nothing else we might be getting the new costume from Doomsday Clock. The one that looks like the old animated suit. Its not much of anything at all, but we have no reason to believe that DC will change how they treat the character just because he finally gets his memory back. "Ric" going away doesn't mean the problems with how DC handles the character will.




> Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?


My guess? If Jurgens is sticking around once Dick returns it'll be because Jurgens is cheaper than bigger name creators. DC might believe that sales won't bounce back once Dick goes back to being Nightwing. They've driven away a lot of readers and lost a lot of faith, and might not believe that fixing Dick will bring us back.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, i have been saying giving Dick his memories back isn't just gonna bring readers back. Cause they have really buried the character, pooped on fan sentiment surrounding the character, and killed off pretty much any general interest. It's gonna take more effort then just bringing him back as Nightwing to recover anything at this point, and time with that improved effort. Guys like Lobdell and Jurgans taking over was the worse thing that could happen to the character, cause it speaks to what the character is to DC. Fodder to keep creators like them working. Guess that isn't changing anything soon.

Im legit nervous about DC's future under the current old guard. Keeping guys you know aren't going anywhere, and throwing away ips on fodder books. That just can't be healthy practice when the industry is in the shape its in.

This sucks...

----------


## Ascended

I suspect that when Dick is back in costume, sales will see a nice spike. For a few issues. Maybe the first arc. And unless DC pushes it hard with the usual tricks; a new #1 and/or a new creative team, and some social media marketing, etc, that spike not even reach the "normal" sales level the title used to have. Like, the spike might bring it up to 30K, well below where the book used to live.

I fully expect that all of us will give that first issue a chance. Because we're suckers, and we've been starved for good Nightwing for two years. But I also suspect that if the book doesn't give us the quality and familiarity we demand, we'll bail before issue 4. 

And from there? I suspect sales will drop even further. I think a lot of people still reading Ric are doing so out of loyalty and the understanding that we'll get Nightwing back and somehow that will make the journey worth it. But if it turns out to not be worth it? If those people spent good money for two years on a crap book waiting for a payoff that doesn't deliver? Those people will be done and there might be nothing DC can do to get them back. 

Dick's return needs to be quality. If he just puts the suit on and quality stays where it has been? Might as well cancel the title because no one will be reading it.

And even if the book is worth reading, even if its back at the quality level it used to be (which still isn't that great, really) it'll take time for readers to return. We're understandably wary. Even climbing back to 40K with a solid book might take some time, as some people will have to hear good word of mouth before they even consider giving DC their money again.

----------


## Godlike13

Exactly. Unless they stack the creative with a big name, which we know will never happen, they are going to have to rebuild fan sentiment and general interest over a length of time now with consistent quality. Nightwing will be lucky if he can sustain over 25k again. The character's fans thinks DC doesn’t like their own character, while general audiences see how widely mocked and criticized his book became. That’s the perception they have created. 

But they had to know that. They had to know holding onto a Ric for as long as they are, despite fans and the market being very clear, that they were digging a hole.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Exactly. Unless they stack the creative with a big name, which we know will never happen, they are going have rebuild fan sentiment and general interest over a consistent length of time now with better quality. He’ll be lucky if he can sustain over 25k again. But they have to know that. They have to know holding onto a Ric for as long as they are, despite fans and the market being very clear, that they were digging a hole.


It was proably a hole they wanted to dig. But if he is on his way back to nightwing then sales will return. If we get a good storyline and writer it will surge

----------


## Restingvoice

As I've said many times before I won't be coming back until I see they don't do their mistakes again, but I wonder if that's a good way to show it. I mean, should I just buy it to show that Nightwing is what people want and then quit when his story gets interrupted again? ...But no. They already know Nightwing is what people want. Ric sales show that. They just don't care. It doesn't matter. 

If I buy Nightwing, if I buy Ric, if I buy Nightwing when his story gets interrupted or him getting victimized, it doesn't matter. 

We're not talking about people who direct their company based on sales. We're talking about old fanboys where they already know what they want and that's what they'll do, and the company makes enough money that they can afford to not care about certain characters, so they can focus 

So no matter what I do it won't matter until the old guards are gone.

I'll just get Pennyworth RIP #1 since Dick is back and I'm a supporter of Let's Kill Alfred Rather Than The Main Characters and see where it goes from there.

----------


## Ascended

> As I've said many times before I won't be coming back until I see they don't do their mistakes again, but I wonder if that's a good way to show it.


My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read. 

With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure, if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?

----------


## dietrich

Sales spiking with Nightwing's return still doesn't address the underlining problem of management and how they treat valuable IP's. Sales dropping didn't push them to restore the character and title. If they don't shake up or invest time, thought and resources to Nightwing after this rough patch then they've learnt nothing and all the fans who dropped/voted with their wallets have all being for nought.

----------


## dietrich

> My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read. 
> 
> With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure, if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?


Dick's pretty much always in the 1st wave of toy release along with Bats, Supes and Harley.

He's the main in Titans TV show. Is the Robin/lead of TTGO [the most profitable and main getaway for youngfans in the past few years at least] He's a fan favourite and a lead in YJ. Has the 2nd highest profile/presence of the Batuniverse characters just behind Batman.

If that isn't a character that has a lot riding on him then I don't know.

DC/WB uses him to push/front so much outside of comics but within DC comics they make little effort to invest what one would expect for a character with a high profile.

There's a disconnect. Perhaps WB has little to no knowledge of what the comics are doing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> My practice has been to buy what I enjoy, and not buy what I don't. Doesn't matter who the character is, if the book is not good I drop it. It's the best way to show DC what we want, because getting our favorite characters doesn't mean anything if they're not in stories we want to read. 
> 
> With Dick, because there's all this other stuff maybe possibly happening behind the scenes that's maybe possibly working against him, I've been buying merchandise instead of the comics. I won't support Ric but I want to show that Nightwing has fans and we're willing to spend money on him. So I've been getting t-shirts, old trades, magnets, even an action figure (and I'm not a toy guy), whatever I can find that has a reasonable price tag. There's not a ton of Nightwing stuff out there, but there's more than you might think too. So I get to support Dick without rewarding DC for a horrible book. And I figure if enough people are doing the same, well.....Harley Quinn got her big push because of merchandise sales so it can't hurt, right?


That's a good idea, and there's a lot of Nightwing figures lately and most of them have high quality. I LOVE the Arkham Knight and Kotobukiya ones.

----------


## DragonPiece

> My two cents: Joker War is the Summer event teased by Tynion, and between Nightwing#71 and the Annual, we have a Batman (with Joker) and a Batgirl issue (with KGBeast).
> So, I'm betting on Dick coming back in the Batman#93 issue (as Tynion stated, he wanted to bring Dick back on Batman), and the Annual being a set up for his new start (in Gotham?)
> Why are we still stucked with Jurgens?


I was coming into the thread to say this exact thing. Didn't Tynion say something about how his run would involve the return of Dick? And now with this tease of joker war and Joker also showing up in Nightwing..the cards seem to line up to well to the event involving Dick Grayson coming back.

----------


## Restingvoice

By the way... this is Classic Joker who shows up, not the Metal/Endgame Joker with his awful hair... or it's the same Joker but he just grows his hair again. 

Like Dick.

lol

----------


## Digifiend

Three Jokers, remember...

----------


## AmiMizuno

We might need to have Dick move out of the Batman household

----------


## Ascended

> Dick's pretty much always in the 1st wave of toy release along with Bats, Supes and Harley.
> 
> He's the main in Titans TV show. Is the Robin/lead of TTGO [the most profitable and main getaway for youngfans in the past few years at least] He's a fan favourite and a lead in YJ. Has the 2nd highest profile/presence of the Batuniverse characters just behind Batman.
> 
> If that isn't a character that has a lot riding on him then I don't know.
> 
> There's a disconnect. Perhaps WB has little to no knowledge of what the comics are doing.


Well, there's two ways to look at it I think. 

The first is that larger media success doesn't translate to floppies. Otherwise Iron Man and Captain America would dominate the Diamond figures (which they don't). It's rare that larger media success translates into comic success, and the few exceptions to that (like Ant-Man or the GotG) basically just manage to crawl up to the middling sales rankings; they don't dominate they just become semi-viable. So the fact that Dick is popular in games and shows and whatnot doesn't necessarily mean that he's worth pushing in the comics. 

But secondly, there *is* a disconnect when we look at the comics themselves. Dick used to sell better than everyone except the League and Harley, and it wasn't uncommon for him to sell better than some Leaguers like Aquaman or Flash either if I recall correctly. His sales were amazingly consistent with a very high sales floor (higher than a lot of A-listers). And he accomplished this with, usually, lower end talent, meaning his profit ratio (production costs v. unit sales) is also probably on the higher end of his (mid-level) sales tier. There's plenty of data we don't have, accounts and income sheets, etc., and that might change the facts, but looking at the data we do have it can't really be argued that Nightwing was successful, with tons of brand loyalty. 

All of that says that Nightwing is a book the company can rely on. It'll pay the electric bill month in and month out, you don't gotta worry about it. And maybe that's enough; there's a lot of IP's for DC to use and experiment with and invest in, and new ideas coming in all the time that might catch on in a big way (it does happen, despite being rare). So if DC had just left Nightwing alone and continued to put in the same effort and investment, that would have been a safe move and decent business choice. Again, just looking at the limited data we have. 

If someone wanted to take the IP and pull more revenue out of it, then you're running a risk that might pay off or might not. And that might be what happened with Ric. Grayson was a critical success but sold only moderately better, so Ric spinning out of King's Batman might have been DC's attempt to get more eyes on the IP, with a startling new direction to generate interest. Can't blame them for that, it's a viable option. But after two years with nothing but declining returns, clearly this isn't working out. Which leaves us with the question of why it's still happening. And the potential answers to that are what have so many of us concerned. And rightfully so, I think.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing sales were declining more and more with them failing to find a replacement for Seeley, so a stunt wasn’t unwarranted. Problem lies with them putting the Bat lines lowest charting creators on the stunt, then letting things go on longer then Grayson despite it clearly not working and being widely rejected.

 It makes no sense to think the guys on the books charting even lower then Nightwing were going to improve things. Thats just illogical. The only thing those creators manage to accomplish was to bring Nightwing closer in performance to RHatO and Batman Beyond. Which of course. That’s why they can’t seriously leave Jurgan’s on after Ric and expect a different result then.

----------


## Claude

> Nightwing sales were declining more and more with them failing to find a replacement for Seeley, so a stunt wasn’t unwarranted. Problem lies with them putting the Bat lines lowest charting creators on the stunt, then letting things go on longer then Grayson despite it clearly not working and being widely rejected.
> 
>  It makes no sense to think the guys on the books charting even lower then Nightwing were going to improve things. Thats just illogical. The only thing those creators manage to accomplish was to bring Nightwing closer in performance to RHatO and Batman Beyond. Which of course. That’s why they can’t seriously leave Jurgan’s on after Ric and expect a different result then.


At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept Jurgens on "Nightwing" when they relaunch it. It doesn't make _sense_, but neither did keeping Abnett on "Titans" when they relaunched _that_ after "No Justice".

----------


## Badou

Oh, my ban is over. Getting banned over the Ric Grayson story is such a joke. First time I've ever been banned on an internet forum.

----------


## WonderNight

Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).

All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.

----------


## king81992

> Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).
> 
> All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.


The push that DC have Cyborg was a push in name only, writers never did anything interesting with him, kept rehashing old plot lines( am I a man or monster?, Daddy issues), have him a terrible supporting cast and a rogue gallery filled with robots.

The only difference between Cyborg's 'push' and Dick's current situation  is that the Ric Grayson experiment is  infinitely worse and has less random robot villains.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Here's an idea for a nightwing stunt. A-list talent on a run! every character in nightwing's sells tier has had it since the new 52 (tom king was a unknown).
> 
> All I know is if nightwing could get a Cybrog push he'd probably have a second book.


Yeah, and once they prove they're good on Dick, they're moved to Batman. Just like King.




> The push that DC have Cyborg was a push in name only, writers never did anything interesting with him, kept rehashing old plot lines( am I a man or monster?, Daddy issues), have him a terrible supporting cast and a rogue gallery filled with robots.
> 
> The only difference between Cyborg's 'push' and Dick's current situation  is that the Ric Grayson experiment is  infinitely worse and has less random robot villains.


Well, there's a difference between marketing and writing. The marketing wants Cyborg but the writer can't deliver.

The same thing can happen to the new Nightwing series.

----------


## Badou

I think the issue is that no big A-list creators are interested in using his character. It isn't even so much about putting a major talent on his solo book, but there isn't really any interest in using the character for any BIG DC stories. In continuity or out of continuity. Take Jason as an example. His solo book has remained unchanged, but you look at the list of creators that are interested in using him in their big stories has gone up regardless of what his solo is doing. You have Bendis that wanted to use Jason for his Leviathan event, you have Johns that has big plans for Jason in the Three Jokers story, and you have Tom Taylor using Jason at the forefront of his DCeased story. 

Things like that are completely missing for Dick's character. Either these top creators aren't interested in using Dick, or DC is telling them no. I'd probably go with the former of the two. Even things like Sean Murphy's White Knight series where he was interested in doing a Joker and Harley story, or Stjepan Sejic doing his Harleen series, none of them are interested in doing one for Dick. I guess a few years ago Higgins did his Nightwing New Order mini series, but he wasn't exactly a big name creator and it didn't get much promotion. I wonder if DC looks at that Higgins mini and seeing it not do that well in sales made DC cool off with doing anything else like that for the character.

----------


## Digifiend

> Yeah, and once they prove they're good on Dick, they're moved to Batman. Just like King.


To be fair, King was co-writing Grayson with Seeley - who wrote Nightwing Rebirth. Because of that, I don't understand why they needed a fill-in writer for the last couple of Grayson issues - what was stopping Seeley doing them?

----------


## WonderNight

> I think the issue is that no big A-list creators are interested in using his character. It isn't even so much about putting a major talent on his solo book, but there isn't really any interest in using the character for any BIG DC stories. In continuity or out of continuity. Take Jason as an example. His solo book has remained unchanged, but you look at the list of creators that are interested in using him in their big stories has gone up regardless of what his solo is doing. You have Bendis that wanted to use Jason for his Leviathan event, you have Johns that has big plans for Jason in the Three Jokers story, and you have Tom Taylor using Jason at the forefront of his DCeased story. 
> 
> Things like that are completely missing for Dick's character. Either these top creators aren't interested in using Dick, or DC is telling them no. I'd probably go with the former of the two. Even things like Sean Murphy's White Knight series where he was interested in doing a Joker and Harley story, or Stjepan Sejic doing his Harleen series, none of them are interested in doing one for Dick. I guess a few years ago Higgins did his Nightwing New Order mini series, but he wasn't exactly a big name creator and it didn't get much promotion. I wonder if DC looks at that Higgins mini and seeing it not do that well in sales made DC cool off with doing anything else like that for the character.


So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean in a way isn't that a good thing to have creators take him? Dick has his own things. You can separate him from Batman but not from his circus life.

----------


## Godlike13

> To be fair, King was co-writing Grayson with Seeley - who wrote Nightwing Rebirth. Because of that, I don't understand why they needed a fill-in writer for the last couple of Grayson issues - what was stopping Seeley doing them?


Nightwing Rebirth. They wanted the writers on the bimonthlies to have issues written in advance to avoid any delays.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.


It's the Superman problem without the Super. Dick is a well adjusted nice character with no obvious inner or outer conflict. 

Darker characters like Batman, Jason and Damian are considered easier to write because they have flaws and conflict, in and out, that they can exploit for a story.

He's not dark or angsty, but he's not a fool or goofy either, so you can't make a story based on his flaws nor his inexperience. 

In Grayson you can, because he's never been in a spy world, but even then they downplay his intelligence so he can't figure out what the spies are planning. His enthusiasm is lowered, so he's more passive in solving the case Batman tasked him to do. 

In Humphries' story, he made him don't want to ask for help, even though Nightwing's known to be open and connected, so the story can go the way it was

Then in Percy's he suddenly hates technology

Even with Seeley, he accepts offers from villains, gets sucker punched, or loses a fight against his equal or lower tier character, except that time in the villain's party sub. 

Higgins is like that too. Made him loses fight against B villains and make angst by burning Haly's Circus and killing his named supporting cast. 

So his writers have to make up flaws for him to make his story work

I think it was Priest who said that Dick is a boring character because he's too perfect or that he should have a better story?

Metatextually, his brand name isn't as big as Superman, Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and so on, so if a writer is offered a higher brand character, they'll take it. 

His character bounces well against dark characters like Batman, Midnighter, Tiger, Huntress, Jason, and Damian, but most of them already have a book. He's a good big brother, but most of his little siblings are being used in other books. 

Which kinda makes me wonder why they don't make rival and little siblings characters... well, Seeley did in Raptor and The Run-Offs... I guess that's why he's one of the best.

Other than that, writers like King, Johns, and Snyder prefer to make him the counselor/confidant where he's often depicted as the better person to the main character their writing, Batman, but also an object of affection and therefore victim.

----------


## Badou

> So in your opinion why are so many creator's not interested in Dick. Is it because he's to similar to batman and robin or all he has of value as a solo character comes from batman.


Batman is probably the main reason. Writers would much rather write Batman than Nightwing. That is who they aspire to write and actively pursue, which is just stating the obvious and you can't blame them for it. It's Batman. Nightwing is just kind of stuck in a position where in their eyes he doesn't really offer up a lot of uniqueness to make them interested in using him over a Batman, or even over a Damian or a Jason for certain stories. It is why when big writers use Nightwing now it is only to push some Batman story along where Dick's role is limited. 

A Red Hood is far enough removed from Batman and Nightwing that he probably appeals more to writers right now. Since you get the dynamic of him being a former Robin and this complicated relationship with Bruce, but at the same time he can fall into a hero or anti-hero category, uses guns, and has connections to these other villains like a Joker or a Talia Dick doesn't have. Same with Damian being Bruce's actual son, the active Robin (which is the bigger brand over Nightwing), and also falls into more gray area. Nightwing right now as a character lacks utility. 

So Nightwing just comes across as redundant when Batman is there. Plenty of writers could have done more with Nightwing's character when they used him, but just had no interest. The entire Ric story is actually a microcosm of everything that is wrong with the character currently. If you read those old Lobdell or Jurgens interviews about the Ric story they go on about how it is designed to show Dick as a character finally without the influence of Batman. Dick completely on his own, but they both failed completely at showing any aspect of that. Immediately they fell into the same old stories and tropes that would happen regardless if the Ric story was going on or not. It shows you how DC and its creators view the character of Dick Grayson currently and it is devoid of anything actually unique or interesting, sadly. So how can you expect creators to be interested in writing the character when the ones actually writing him aren't even interested themselves?

----------


## Badou

> It's the Superman problem without the Super. Dick is a well adjusted nice character with no obvious inner or outer conflict. 
> 
> Darker characters like Batman, Jason and Damian are considered easier to write because they have flaws and conflict, in and out, that they can exploit for a story.
> 
> He's not dark or angsty, but he's not a fool or goofy either, so you can't make a story based on his flaws nor his inexperience. 
> 
> In Grayson you can, because he's never been in a spy world, but even then they downplay his intelligence so he can't figure out what the spies are planning. His enthusiasm is lowered, so he's more passive in solving the case Batman tasked him to do. 
> 
> In Humphries' story, he made him don't want to ask for help, even though Nightwing's known to be open and connected, so the story can go the way it was
> ...


I agree with a lot of this. The thing that makes Dick unique, in that he is a well adjusted person and hero, makes writers less interested in him. It is a double edge sword. I love that aspect of his character, but nearly every big writer has no interested in it unfortunately. Even though there is an endless number of manga series that show you can have a well adjusted hero and still tell unique stories. 

Just those other options offer more utility for stories in their eyes. It is why a Priest wants to probably completely tear down Dick's character and make him more angsty. Turn him into a darker character that he is actually interested in writing. Since he views that Dick should resent Bruce more and was raised in an abusive relationship with him training him to be a child solider.

----------


## Godlike13

Lobdell and Jurgan’s are old school. They are conditioned to churn out factory like, trope heavy, quick to make stories. A typical issue from them goes like this, recap, padding, then what’s on the cover. Rinse and repeat. Red Hood is in the same situation as Dick. His purpose these days is to just facilitate Lobdell. While every once in a while another writer might come around a put him in a Batman story or have him pop up in an event, it’s never at the center. Much like Nightwing was often used. Be it FE or what have you. 
And the thing is, I’m pretty sure writers are told no. Remember the Earth squad of Nightwing and Waller in No Justice, or how Dick was going to pop up in Action prior to Leviathan. Which bare in mind was saturated with Grayson lore. Regardless if creators want to use Dick now, for the past 2 years Dick has been untouchable. Even if anyone wanted to go near Ric, which most relevant creators probably don’t, he is off the table. Ric has oddly been protected.

At the same time though, mediocrity breeds disinterest. No one is interested in Dick right now. Not even fans, so why would creators be. It’s DC job is to make their characters interesting and appealing to audiences. But they are not interested in doing that, clearly, what they are interested in is having books for creators they like to be able to get some work with.

----------


## Restingvoice

By the way

We're not getting Nicola Scott's ass-first cover as a variant in the Robin 80th book, aren't we?

----------


## Ascended

I'm inclined to believe that DC is saying no, more than creators not asking at all. As Godlike said, Dick was supposed to be a big part of No Justice, but somewhere between concept and final product, that got changed. Bendis wanted to use Dick in Event Leviathan and couldn't. And I want to say that Snyder has said Dick is one of his favorite characters, but got a bigger fish with Batman. 

It's also true that Dick is a whole lot like Batman, only without as much angst and brooding and inner conflict....but that's entirely on how DC has allowed him to be used since Dick returned from the Titans office. At one point Dick was like a Bat living in a Super world and he wasn't just doing standard street vigilante stuff. But DC seems to still be intent on downplaying that element of Dick's character, even though a powerless vigilante going up against big superhuman threats is a fairly unique niche that, as far as I know, no one else in DC is really filling. 

I also dont think the "too much like Batman" thing really justifies the extent of what we've seen the last few years. If writers didn't want to write Nightwing because he's so much like Batman, then why do they want to write Arrow? There's a lot of characters in DC that overlap each other a lot, I don't think the similarities between Dick and Bruce are that different.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What do you guys think about this 

https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/

I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, it's all but over. The current storyline seems to be ending in April, he's back in costume in the annual solicit for that month.

----------


## Badou

But even before the Ric story Dick was completely irrelevant to the greater DCU. No big writer was interested in using his character in anything. So I don't think this Ric story suddenly caused all these writers to lose interest in him or prevent them from using him as none were interested in using him before this. That No Justice story I think Snyder just made a mistake when he was speaking and he meant that Green Arrow and Waller would be the active ones on Earth still and not Nightwing. I don't think it is more complicated than that. 




> What do you guys think about this 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/
> 
> I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think


He is still in his Ric costume with the mud on his face in the April Nightwing issue for whatever Tynion's Joker story is going to be. The solicit still refers to him as Ric too. The Annual could take place before the Ric story happens for all we know. All this did was prove how pointless the Owls and Talon story was. Retconning it as it being the Owls responsible for everything to cause Ric lead to nothing in the end. They go through so much trouble to set up this entire Ric plot to get him but Dick defeats them and their plot in such an easy way that it is laughable. Dick takes off those special goggles and he suddenly has his memories back, and the Owls basically throw their hands up and give up. They go through so much trouble and they fail to kill any named character even. It was such a poorly thought out story.

He also still has his Ric memories the Owls apparently gave him and is going to continue to go by Ric, continue to wear exactly what Ric wears, and interact with all the Ric characters. You could completely erase the Owls and Talon story from the entire Ric saga and just have Ric regain his Dick Grayson memories when he is confronted by the Joker in the new arc and it would have the exact same effect.

----------


## Ascended

> What do you guys think about this 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/
> 
> I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think


I think we will see what happens. We've thought the Ric saga was close to ending before and were wrong. We've heard about the plans DC has for the character that never materialized (like his role in No Justice). So I don't put much stock in solicits or interviews. I'll judge what makes its way to the page when the book hits.

From the sounds of it, DC might be taking this opportunity to tweak Dick again as well. If he's trying to figure out and balance "Ric" against "Dick" then we may not end up with a Dick Grayson that is much more recognizable than what we have now. Different from Ric perhaps, but not necessarily Dick Grayson as we'd recognize him. Which may or may not be a bad thing (the Grayson series was a big change too), we won't know until we read it.

Or we might get Dick back at last, and the fandom will rejoice and sing....and still be worried about DC giving us crap quality.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wonder if we had to deal with Ric. What storyline would have worked?

----------


## WonderNight

> I also dont think the "too much like Batman" thing really justifies the extent of what we've seen the last few years. If writers didn't want to write Nightwing because he's so much like Batman, then why do they want to write Arrow? There's a lot of characters in DC that overlap each other a lot, I don't think the similarities between Dick and Bruce are that different.


It's not a problem for green arrow or some others because there not apart of the same franchise or mythos or city and is the lead of there own brand.

Nightwing is under the batman brand so the similarities are going to alot more direct and add to that batman is the lead and nightwing isn't, he ends up coming across as side character.

If nightwing was his own lead or apart of a franchise that didn't already have the bigger ip of batman there the similarities between the two wouldn't be as big a problem.

----------


## Godlike13

He has the Titans franchise. But the comic side isn't anymore interested in investing more in Titans then they are Nightwing. Generally though they play into the similarities so they can more easily produce quick material.

At the end of the day if they can't find creators, they are doing something wrong. They can find ways to make the situation more attractive. That's part of editorials job. They thought Ric would be a situation that would attract readers and creators alike. They were wrong. But instead of taking that as a hint, they doubled down and just passed it to resident yes men.

----------


## Digifiend

> He also still has his Ric memories the Owls apparently gave him and is going to continue to go by Ric, continue to wear exactly what Ric wears, and interact with all the Ric characters. You could completely erase the Owls and Talon story from the entire Ric saga and just have Ric regain his Dick Grayson memories when he is confronted by the Joker in the new arc and it would have the exact same effect.


Not for long. March's solicit indicates that Joker's going to take the four fake Nightwings off the board.

----------


## Ascended

> It's not a problem for green arrow or some others because there not apart of the same franchise or mythos or city and is the lead of there own brand.
> 
> Nightwing is under the batman brand so the similarities are going to alot more direct and add to that batman is the lead and nightwing isn't, he ends up coming across as side character.
> 
> If nightwing was his own lead or apart of a franchise that didn't already have the bigger ip of batman there the similarities between the two wouldn't be as big a problem.


Oh, I know. I've been yelling for DC to put Dick under different editorial for years. You're not wrong, being part of the Bat brand makes the similarities more striking. But at the same time, we've seen with books like Gotham Central and Red Hood and Azreal (90's version) and plenty of others that you can be part of the Bat world and be under the Bat umbrella without being Bat lite. 

Sometimes I think DC believes that Dick is the heir apparent of Batman, and as such has to be as much like Batman as possible. But if they let Dick be more himself, even a little bit, I think the differences would outweigh any similarities to the point the comparisons wouldn't matter. Hell, even putting Dick in some fun Silver Age Batman style adventures, yknow, back when Bats was *fun* would keep him under the Bat umbrella but let him stand apart.

Seriously, just take that Batman Brave & the Bold cartoon, recycle the scripts and replace Bruce with Dick and you've got a quality seller. It's that f**kin' easy.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## twiztor

> What do you guys think about this 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-finally-lost-ric-grayson/
> 
> I hope this means we will finally be getting more Nightwing stories sooner than we think





> Still, Ric has finally gotten his happy ending, closure on the Court of Owls, and the means to reclaim his past life if he so chooses eventually. And *with fan response on the Ric Grayson persona decidedly mixed*, the full return of Dick Grayson and Nightwing can't come soon enough.


mixed response? please show me ANY positive reaction to this storyline. It has been overwhelmingly negative on every single front.

----------


## Badou

> Not for long. March's solicit indicates that Joker's going to take the four fake Nightwings off the board.


They have already done two arcs of the exact same set up. Dragging in some Gotham villain to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings. They had Scarecrow come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. Then they later had Talon come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. Now the Joker is going to come to Bludhaven to beat up the fake Nightwings and challenge Ric. It is so repetitive and frustrating. Maybe if we are lucky the Joker will kill off the fake Nightwings and Bea, but if those other two didn't I don't really expect or care at this point if the Joker does. For over a year now they have been dragging out Dick getting his memories back because they have no other story around Ric to tell. So they are having to continue to streeeeeeeeech out this one and only thing they did with the entire Ric story. The book and character is basically on hold until 5G before we can get some new and possibly interesting stories. 

I mean they could have just had Dick fully return after this Talon story. Then we could have gotten 6 months or so of new stories about Dick learning about and understanding all the major things he missed. From who I guess is his best friend in Wally killing a bunch of heroes, trying to kill himself, going to prison, and then disappearing, heroes like Roy being one of those that died, Gotham City being taken over by Bane and Bruce's dad and put into chaos, Alfred being killed and Damian having to witness it, Luthor sending the world into chaos and having characters like Donna again turn evil, and so on. They could have even had Dick go find KGBeast and confront him instead of Barbara doing that in her book to bring this whole mess full circle, but all of that requires effort and no one is willing to put that into the Nightwing book.

Also you have the whole issue of why does the Joker even care about Ric in Bludhaven? He has zero motivation to go after Ric other than Tynion needs a hook for his Summer Joker story so they are dragging in Dick/Ric for that I guess. This also confirms the Joker knows Dick is Ric and that Dick is Nightwing too? This whole story doesn't really make sense to me as Dick is already cut off from Bruce so the Joker doesn't need to isolate Batman from his allies, but then does that mean the Joker is going to drag in Dick to taunt Batman? Which has zero appeal to me.

----------


## Ansa

Dick got shot in the head to taunt Batman and now he'll getkidnapped by Joker to taunt Batman...again.

----------


## Valentonis

> Oh, I know. I've been yelling for DC to put Dick under different editorial for years. You're not wrong, being part of the Bat brand makes the similarities more striking. But at the same time, we've seen with books like Gotham Central and Red Hood and Azreal (90's version) and plenty of others that you can be part of the Bat world and be under the Bat umbrella without being Bat lite. 
> 
> Sometimes I think DC believes that Dick is the heir apparent of Batman, and as such has to be as much like Batman as possible. But if they let Dick be more himself, even a little bit, I think the differences would outweigh any similarities to the point the comparisons wouldn't matter. Hell, even putting Dick in some fun Silver Age Batman style adventures, yknow, back when Bats was *fun* would keep him under the Bat umbrella but let him stand apart.
> 
> Seriously, just take that Batman Brave & the Bold cartoon, recycle the scripts and replace Bruce with Dick and you've got a quality seller. It's that f**kin' easy.


I was reading some back issues the other day and this same line of thought came to me. If Dick has to be an echo of Batman, then it should be silver age Batman. Fun, outlandish, and definitely not street level. I think the Spyral stuff and some elements of Morrison and Seeley captured this side of Dick the best.

----------


## agentofthebat

Is the Ric Grayson stuff every gonna end?

----------


## Ascended

> I was reading some back issues the other day and this same line of thought came to me. If Dick has to be an echo of Batman, then it should be silver age Batman. Fun, outlandish, and definitely not street level. I think the Spyral stuff and some elements of Morrison and Seeley captured this side of Dick the best.


Right? 

How many books are like that right now? Not very many. Could be lots of fun.

----------


## AmiMizuno

All we know it’s going to end this year. I mean who should Dick be with? I mean would Superman’s editorial office be any better?

----------


## dietrich

> All we know it’s going to end this year. I mean who should Dick be with? I mean would Superman’s editorial office be any better?


Honestly I don't know. Damian [I think Jason might be a well] is under the Superman office. He hasn't had a bad time like Dick but it didn't stop the Bat Books using him as a device as and when needed.

The most important thing is there being a clear plan for the characters future. Management keeping an eye on how he is used.

Example Damian was placed off limits making him unavailable for some stories. The reason. Danger of over exposure. That is good since someone was mentoring.

The bad. Priest's 1st draft of lazarus Contract was rejected because the Damian was m,ore like Priest's regular Damian but editorial deemed him too soft leading to a re-write and we all know how that version acts in comparison to the Damian in Deathstroke.

So there's good and bad but at least someone in that office was watching what was being done with the character. Dick  Grayson it doesn't feel like anyone is watching/checking what's being done.

----------


## dietrich

The Nightwing











https://twitter.com/ArtofNickRobles

----------


## Ascended

> All we know it’s going to end this year. I mean who should Dick be with? I mean would Superman’s editorial office be any better?


I'm with dietrich; there's pro's and con's to Dick moving offices. I personally think the pro's would outweigh the con's, but that's just an assumption. 

I do think, right this very moment, it could be a good thing for Dick. Bendis is driving the Super bus these days, and Dick is a character right up his alley and in his sweet spot as a creator. I'm sure Bendis wouldn't mind getting his hands on a character like Dick, if only to provide something different from what he's doing in the main DCU right now, where he's dealing with not just super powered people, but people on the very upper end of the scale.

It also puts Dick under the creative control of a writer with enough pull to do what he wants. So if Dick really is getting sabotaged by upper management, Bendis provides a lot of protection Dick doesn't have right now.

I'd be interested in seeing Dick switch offices, but I don't know if we'd actually be better off. I doubt we'd be any worse though, so it's a risk I'd be willing to take.

----------


## Restingvoice

Heh. Comichron December sale is up. Nightwing, I mean Ric, hits a new low of 19,000something

----------


## Ascended

They held up better, for far longer, than they had any right to. I applaud our fellow fans for sticking with such an awful book and direction, even though that loyalty meant DC could drag this out much longer than they should have without being penalized for it. 

But for reals, next time something like this happens guys, just drop the book quickly.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing is a ip that’s been around. Shops will order a set amount just for the selves.

----------


## Ascended

That's a good point.

----------


## WonderNight

Ah Remember when Dick was the face of DC's espionage corner and we had Grayson, Midnighter and Suicide Squad together? It was like dick was the head of his own family of books for a second. 

Good times.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ah Remember when Dick was the face of DC's espionage corner and we had Grayson, Midnighter and Suicide Squad together? It was like dick was the head of his own family of books for a second. 
> 
> Good times.


He never interacted with the Suicide squad, the corner no longer exist

----------


## WonderNight

> He never interacted with the Suicide squad, the corner no longer exist


whatever. His writer tim seeley was put on the book at the same time he was writing Grayson to connect them just like Grayson and Midnighter where connected.

 That corner still very much exist, Leviathan and Leviathan: checkmate anyone. And damn sure exist more then anything in bludhaven.

----------


## Rac7d*

> whatever. His writer tim seeley was put on the book at the same time he was writing Grayson to connect them just like Grayson and Midnighter where connected.
> 
>  That corner still very much exist, Leviathan and Leviathan: checkmate anyone. And damn sure exist more then anything in bludhaven.


Their so irrelevant

----------


## WonderNight

> Their so irrelevant


More so than the streets of Bludhaven will ever be.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Gotham reminds me. Can we make Bludhaven interesting? If this is his home we got to have Dick’s city be cool.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Gotham reminds me. Can we make Bludhaven interesting? If this is his home we got to have Dick’s city be cool.


Of course not, and if by accident it gets interesting, it will be passed to the next family member they are trying to build up at the time

----------


## Godlike13

> Of course not, and if by accident it gets interesting, it will be passed to the next family member they are trying to build up at the time


LoL, so true...

----------


## DragonPiece

So I’m thinking joker war will be where dick Grayson makes his official return,joker being mentioned in the night wing solicits just adds things up.

----------


## Ascended

That does seem to be the case. Everything is starting to aim towards each other and Dick's return is starting to feel more imminent. 

But solicits have tricked me before. So I'll wait until Nightwing is not only on the cover of Nightwing, but in the pages too. Until that issue hits the stands, I have no trust in DC. 

And when that issue does finally hit, I'll only trust DC to f**k it up again anyway. Gonna take a long time and a lot of quality effort before I have any faith in these people when it comes to Nightwing. 

Fortunately I have larger media, and those guys seem to love Dick.

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

Goodbye Ric. Welcome back Dick Grayson







https://twitter.com/JarrulusX

----------


## CPSparkles

This is gorgeous

Nightwing 71 by Travis Moore

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is gorgeous
> 
> Nightwing 71 by Travis Moore


Imagine how tired we are

----------


## Drako

Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.

1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)
1950s - Totino Tedesco
1960s - Dustin Nguyen
1970s - Kaare Andrews

Source: https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...78575477805056

----------


## Drako

He is also in the 2010s by Yasmine Putri

----------


## Digifiend

That last one shouldn't have been decade specific. Damian should've been the sole focus of the 2010s cover as his Robin tenure is 2009 to present.

Interesting that Dick has his classic costume on all the covers, no sign of the New 52 retcon costume... but on the last cover, Jason does have a retcon costume - he only ever wore the same one as Dick originally.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
> Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.
> 
> 1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)
> 1950s - Totino Tedesco
> 1960s - Dustin Nguyen
> 1970s - Kaare Andrews
> 
> Source: https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...78575477805056


Not weird. It's Frank Miller.

----------


## Zaresh

> Not weird. It's Frank Miller.


It was to be expected. I was counting with it, with having not Jason cover at all.
What surprised me was that we don't get a Damian-solo cover. A group cover, that's nice.

----------


## Zaresh

> He is also in the 2010s by Yasmine Putri


A funny thing I noticed. The 6 Robins are kind of put in pairs.
You have Dick and Damian kind of linked by the grapple line to the left side of the page.
Then you have Tim and Steph one over the other.
And Jason and Carrie one next to the other in the right of the picture.
And then you have Carrie and Stephanie lining diagonally one next to the other with Tim and Jason lining one next to the other.

All of this while they fight overlaying the R for Robin in the background.
It's a pretty smart layout. Damn, I love Putri's work.

----------


## Digifiend

Everyone has their own weapon too, that's a nice touch. Dick has nothing but his grapple line, as he relies on acrobatics as Robin (he didn't gain his signature eskrima sticks until his third Nightwing costume). Jason has a lead pipe, Tim has his signature extending staff. Damian has a sword, Steph has a knuckleduster, and Carrie has a slingshot.

I just wish this cover wasn't assigned as a decade variant, since it means Damian didn't get his own. Would've been nice if this was the primary cover.

----------


## dietrich

> Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
> Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.
> 
> 1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)
> 1950s - Totino Tedesco
> 1960s - Dustin Nguyen
> 1970s - Kaare Andrews
> 
> Source: https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...78575477805056


Well most of the 80 years belongs to him and last Time DC had a party for RobinDick and co they gave the Cake and pressies to Harper.

All the covers are brilliant.

----------


## dietrich

> This is gorgeous
> 
> Nightwing 71 by Travis Moore


This is amazing.

----------


## Badou

Glad that Dick's ugly New 52 Robin costume is nowhere on those covers. I completely understand people not liking Dick's classic Robin costume because it is so ridiculous by today's standards, but I really can't stand his New 52 one. It annoys me so much every time I have to look at it. It removed all the iconic elements out of the costume and it looks like an over-designed mess. Jason's New 52 Robin costume had more iconic elements with the exposed arms and yellow cape. 

I'll never understand why they just didn't give his iconic Robin costume pants and boots. That is all it really needed to be vastly less ridiculous and you keep the classic red vest with the stitching and green sleeves. The Teen Titans cartoon did it easily nearly 20 years ago now. 

Also Steph getting her own Robin cover is a mistake, especially over Jason. Not even Damian got his own cover. She sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the other 5 Robins as she never added anything to the identity or legacy. Carrie was the first female Robin and is part of an iconic story at least. I get her fans are obsessed with her being "counted" as one despite only being Robin for like 3 issues in a one off event that she wasn't even the focus of, but she really shouldn't be there in my opinion.

----------


## Godlike13

> 


LoL the confidence.

----------


## Digifiend

> Also Steph getting her own Robin cover is a mistake, especially over Jason. Not even Damian got his own cover. She sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the other 5 Robins as she never added anything to the identity or legacy. Carrie was the first female Robin and is part of an iconic story at least. I get her fans are obsessed with her being "counted" as one despite only being Robin for like 3 issues in a one off event that she wasn't even the focus of, but she really shouldn't be there in my opinion.


Steph's cover is at Tim's expense, not Jason's. Jason was unlucky in that Carrie and he both date from the same decade. Carrie's the reason he lost out.

----------


## Ascended

The covers look great.

I get using Carrie for the 80's cover. It's Miller, it's DKR, it's a little diversity, etc. Sucks for Jason but his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died; his star didn't truly rise until he was Red Hood. 

But really, the Steph cover is pretty awful. She was Robin for what, five minutes? Did it even last an actual year? Should've been Tim. Again, Steph makes for slightly better representation and that sort of thing should always be a consideration in business, but still. Should've been Tim.

At the very least, Tim and Jason should have shared the covers with Carrie and Steph, I think.

And Damien should've had his own cover. The group shot is fantastic; that's the cover I want, but Damien really should've had his own.

Dick looks fantastic on all of his covers though. They really did right by him, and I'm glad they used his classic look instead of the new generic re-designs.

----------


## Aahz

> But really, the Steph cover is pretty awful. She was Robin for what, five minutes? Did it even last an actual year?


Afaik 4 issues.

----------


## Zaresh

> The covers look great.
> 
> I get using Carrie for the 80's cover. It's Miller, it's DKR, it's a little diversity, etc. Sucks for Jason but his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died; his star didn't truly rise until he was Red Hood. 
> 
> But really, the Steph cover is pretty awful. She was Robin for what, five minutes? Did it even last an actual year? Should've been Tim. Again, Steph makes for slightly better representation and that sort of thing should always be a consideration in business, but still. Should've been Tim.
> 
> At the very least, Tim and Jason should have shared the covers with Carrie and Steph, I think.
> 
> And Damien should've had his own cover. The group shot is fantastic; that's the cover I want, but Damien really should've had his own.
> ...


Stephanie was a very liked and important support cast for Tim, and she was also a Batgirl that people liked plenty. She's a girl, she's well liked: she gets a cover, even if she was Robin for like two minutes. It's a marketing choice, because a lot of people is going to want her cover. Jason, on the other hand, even if he has more fans (and I think he has), is not going to sell so well, probably.

Saying that Jason's only remarkable thing he did as Robin is dying is pretty unfair. I'm not saying this because I'm a big fan of him; but when you take into account his pre and post-crisis versions, he was the Robin in The Cult, he was the Robin that saved Superman and the trinity in one of the most famous Superman stories, he was the character which with Killer Croc and I think a bunch of other villains debuted with. His tenure was short and had the drama (for me) of being rebooted halfway in; but it's not just "he died in that not very good story about Batman failing and Joker wining that was decided by a poll".

But it's Miller. You want Miller in an 80's cover: who would you, if not? And because it's Miller, it's going to be Carrie. So, well, as I said, life is unfair and you have to learn to deal with it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Carrie is cool and she doesn't get the spotlight a lot. Let's have her.

Edit: putting two Robins in the same cover... I don't know, maybe some people would prefer just one alone. But I would buy one with both Carrie and Jason, or Tim and Steph, if I could.

----------


## Godlike13

While i don’t really care one way or the other about Steph getting a cover, but where is Duke then?

Also I don’t care how much one is a fan a Jason, his death was by far the most remarkable thing that happen during his tenure by a huge margin. Saving Superman isn’t even in the ball park. Come on now.

----------


## Zaresh

> While i don’t really care one way or the other about Steph getting a cover, but where is Duke then?
> 
> Also I don’t care how much one is a fan a Jason, his death was by far the most remarkable thing that happen during his tenure by a huge margin. Saving Superman isn’t even in the ball park. Come on now.


It may be the most remarkable. But it isn't the only remarkable thing about his Robin. That's what I was arguing. It's hard to deny it, when dying had impact for others characters for a decade. Even if the impact is of my dislike half the time because they blamed him and turned him sometimes into something he wasn't. But   is wasn't the only remarkable thing (quoting Ascended: "his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died").

----------


## Godlike13

> It may be the most remarkable. But it isn't the only remarkable thing about his Robin. That's what I was arguing. It's hard to deny it, when dying had impact for others characters for a decade. Even if the impact is of my dislike half the time because they blamed him and turned him sometimes into something he wasn't.


But it is though. Nothing else comes even close to it, that’s what it is to be remarkable. Everything else that happen during his tenure is so under that bar that you can’t really call them remarkable then.

----------


## Zaresh

> But it is though. Nothing else comes even close to it, that’s what it is to be remarkable. Everything else that happen during his tenure is so under that bar that can’t seriously call them remarkable.


What does Damian go for him that's remarkable, outside his Batman and Robin with Dick?
Or Tim, outside some of his years in Robin? And the thing is, most people only remember his father's death and his Red Robin run.
Or Dick, outsiode being the first, the original, and a pretty good leader for the Titans and their stories? In forty-something years of history as Robin?

When you cut that close, then, every Robin has only one or maybe two things remarkable for them.
As I said, it's unfair, to said that the only remarkable thing for Jason is that, because it's not. He had more stuff in his run, and that run was painfully sort: it lasted 6 years, or 5 and a half. With a reboot that messed up a lot of the continuity and hit Jason like a bus. I think it's pretty remarkable that some stories with him, or some villains, survived enough that a lot of people can remember them (even if it's not most people). It's remarkable too, for Dick, because he was Robin in times when stories didn't need him to be an actual character; and yet you can remember stories from the 70's, for example, even when they're not big. That's remarkable, too, even if it's not a long lasting impact. Just like what Jason had for him.

----------


## Rakiduam

> What does Damian go for him that's remarkable, outside his Batman and Robin with Dick?
> Or Tim, outside some of his years in Robin? And the thing is, most people only remember his father's death and his Red Robin run.
> Or Dick, outsiode being the first, the original, and a pretty good leader for the Titans and their stories? In forty-something years of history as Robin?
> 
> When you cut that close, then, every Robin has only one or maybe two things remarkable for them.
> As I said, it's unfair, to said that the only remarkable thing for Jason is that, because it's not. He had more stuff in his run, and that run was painfully sort: it lasted 6 years, or 5 and a half. With a reboot that messed up a lot of the continuity and hit Jason like a bus. I think it's pretty remarkable that some stories with him, or some villains, survived enough that a lot of people can remember them (even if it's not most people). It's remarkable too, for Dick, because he was Robin in times when stories didn't need him to be an actual character; and yet you can remember stories from the 70's, for example, even when they're not big. That's remarkable, too, even if it's not a long standing impact. Just like what Jason had for him.



Oh c'mon! Let's ignore Tim's entire run as a solo, and a Titan, and  in Young justice, and Damian's entire existnce. There is a reason Lobdell had to take from every other Robin to make somehing of Jason's history.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not cutting it close, your just lowering the bar for what it is to be remarkable. Being the Robin in a Batman story isn’t remarkable, being around when other characters are created isn’t remarkable. Dying is what made his Robin tenure remarkable. The rest of what he did as Robin are footnotes by comparison. He didn’t last very long, and he wasn’t a Robin they used to bring the role into a new age. His tenure is marked because he died. If you start tying to claim everything as remarkable, it redefines what actually was or is remarkable.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh c'mon! Let's ignore Tim's entire run as a solo, and a Titan, and  in Young justice, and Damian's entire existnce. There is a reason Lobdell had to take from every other Robin to make somehing of Jason's history.


I'm someone who has a mild knowledge of Tim's comics. I like them and know some of them and I'm not afraid of reading "old" books, read some of them; how many spot hits can remember someone who's not a fan of the character? You have to keep in mind that just because you do, some people don't have to. Stuff from more 20 years ago is older enough that most people is not going to be familiar or know about it. A lot of people hasn't read Tim in TT and YJ before Flashpoint (sadly, people are really missing a really fun read with YJ. I've not read TT, so I wouldn't know). A lot of people hasn't read his Robin run either. Most people remember him because he appears in certain stories that had impact, like (unfortunately) Identity Crisis. This is why people who remembers Tim either remembers him in that awful story, remembers him in some Batman story, remember him in his RR book (that falls under the 20 mark), or remembers him for his most recent books.

This works to for other characters. Think about Azrael, for example. There's Knightfall and... that run in the 90's? I can't remember much outside Knighfall, to be honest. I'm not interested in the character, and I've not find anyone recommending me any other story.
But the trial by fire is going to be Damian: seeing how Damian evolves in 20 years, how many people is going to remember Son of Batman or Supersons. I loved Supersons, and nowadays I see a lot of people recommending it. But in 20, I don't know... Dickbats, on the other hand, is going to be read once and again and be remembered.

Well, in my opinion.

We know our faves stories because they're our faves and we read them. But this isn't the same for other people who like other characters. I know near to nothing about Cassandra Cain, for example. I can't tell a remarkable thing about her outside her origin story and her being Batgirl. But can't remember a single story or hit outside that. Edit 2: and well, as I said, isn't it unfair when we cannot tell more than a thing or two about a character? But fans know better. We can tell more important things to fill in that list.

Maybe it's just me, that I'm a casual and it shows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. But I don't think this time it's the case.

Edit: or we have different definitions about what's remarkable. That seems to be the case.

----------


## Robanker

> The covers look great.
> 
> I get using Carrie for the 80's cover. It's Miller, it's DKR, it's a little diversity, etc. Sucks for Jason but his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died; his star didn't truly rise until he was Red Hood. 
> 
> But really, the Steph cover is pretty awful. She was Robin for what, five minutes? Did it even last an actual year? Should've been Tim. Again, Steph makes for slightly better representation and that sort of thing should always be a consideration in business, but still. Should've been Tim.
> 
> At the very least, Tim and Jason should have shared the covers with Carrie and Steph, I think.
> 
> And Damien should've had his own cover. The group shot is fantastic; that's the cover I want, but Damien really should've had his own.
> ...


All of this. That Kaare Andrews cover is my jam.

I hate how Batman in the 80s is so cemented with DKR. Hot take, I know, but I really do not love that book. I think Year One is way stronger and the most important moment in Robin's history during the 80s is either Jason's death or Dick graduating to Nightwing. Carrie is fine, but unremarkable in comparison.

----------


## redmax99

> Oh c'mon! Let's ignore Tim's entire run as a solo, and a Titan, and  in Young justice, and Damian's entire existnce. There is a reason Lobdell had to take from every other Robin to make somehing of Jason's history.


what did jason take from tim and damian 

jason going to the circus to see dick grayson? jason being adjancent to  the LOA? Jason being red robin, jason murdering his teach after being taught how to do the job right.
if you just said took from dick i would have agreed with you,but he took nothing from tim or damian

----------


## Restingvoice

When Steph was made a Robin to die for Bruce and Tim angst fodder and then went unacknowledged.
The cover and her inclusion in general is acknowledgement. Perhaps a way of apology for how her time as Robin was treated.

I'm honestly surprised. I thought people who are fans of Dick who's been screwed by DC too would understand this.

Or is it because Dick, Jean-Paul, and Gordon are not included in Batman anniversary?

Well, DC does have problems and they only act if people shame them forever or lose sales, and I dont hear any protest about that one as often as I heard Steph fans screamed about her treatment since the 2000s.

It took them a while to get that acknowledgement. Robin 75th anniversary was the first official one.

----------


## Ascended

> It may be the most remarkable. But it isn't the only remarkable thing about his Robin. That's what I was arguing. It's hard to deny it, when dying had impact for others characters for a decade. Even if the impact is of my dislike half the time because they blamed him and turned him sometimes into something he wasn't. But   is wasn't the only remarkable thing (quoting Ascended: "his tenure as Robin is remarkable only because he died").


Oh, don't mind me; I'm a fan of using a bit of hyperbole to spice up a post.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

No, dying isn't the only thing Jason did as Robin. It's just the thing everyone remembers. 

And I understand the business and marketing (about to finish my degree in business and marketing, matter of fact! yay me!) of using Carrie and Steph, and I wouldn't even argue that Carrie doesnt deserve it. DKR is a big deal (even if Year One is better). Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. She gets a cover for marketing purposes only, and I get that (would likely have argued for something similar myself), because as a Robin......four issues isn't even a "stint" as a Robin, it's barely more than cosplay. Like, we have seen Starfire wearing nothing but Dick's Robin shirt in more panels than we saw Steph as Robin.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh, don't mind me; I'm a fan of using a bit of hyperbole to spice up a post.  
> 
> No, dying isn't the only thing Jason did as Robin. It's just the thing everyone remembers. 
> 
> And I understand the business and marketing (about to finish my degree in business and marketing, matter of fact! yay me!) of using Carrie and Steph, and I wouldn't even argue that Carrie doesnt deserve it. DKR is a big deal (even if Year One is better). Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on. She gets a cover for marketing purposes only, and I get that (would likely have argued for something similar myself), because as a Robin......four issues isn't even a "stint" as a Robin, it's barely more than cosplay. Like, we have seen Starfire wearing nothing but Dick's Robin shirt in more panels than we saw Steph as Robin.


Oh, ok.

Yeah, you have a point. Marketing probably has a lot to do with her being chosen. But perhaps her history outside her Robin days can help in the argument for choicing her for the cover. And Tim getting the 90's cover makes some space for that choice.

And that way we can have that gorgeous, gorgeous cover by Putri. Having two girls in there helps in making the composition work so beautifully :3.

----------


## Badou

> Steph's cover is at Tim's expense, not Jason's. Jason was unlucky in that Carrie and he both date from the same decade. Carrie's the reason he lost out.


Well it was DC's decision to do some decade variant cover theme. I wouldn't have done that and just given the 8 covers to the Robins that actually deserve it. Sure, the 00s could have been Tim and I would have no problems, but Damian was Robin in far more issues in the 00s than Steph was too. He could have gotten that cover as that is the decade when he debuted as Robin. 




> When Steph was made a Robin to die for Bruce and Tim angst fodder and then went unacknowledged.
> The cover and her inclusion in general is acknowledgement. Perhaps a way of apology for how her time as Robin was treated.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised. I thought people who are fans of Dick who's been screwed by DC too would understand this.
> 
> Or is it because Dick, Jean-Paul, and Gordon are not included in Batman anniversary?
> 
> Well, DC does have problems and they only act if people shame them forever or lose sales, and I dont hear any protest about that one as often as I heard Steph fans screamed about her treatment since the 2000s.
> 
> It took them a while to get that acknowledgement. Robin 75th anniversary was the first official one.


She didn't get screwed by DC because they didn't acknowledge her time as Robin. There is nothing to acknowledge. It was for 4 issues 15 years ago in a story that many don't look back on fondly. I didn't enjoy the story. She is far more iconic as Spoiler and Batgirl, and as Batgirl is when she finally got her acknowledgement as a hero in my eyes. That is her legacy, not Robin. DC taking the Batgirl identity away from her is what her fans were upset about far more and rightfully so. 

Her time as Robin is completely forgettable outside her fans wanting her to keep it because it is a nice notch in her belt to be included with them. Which is something I at least can understand far more than her fans trying to act like those 4 issues were some profound story that makes her not being included some sin against comics. Sure, I'd love for Dick's time as Batman to be acknowledged more and for him to actually be counted as a Batman, but I know that will never happen. So it isn't something I push for since I know he will never be close to what Bruce is to the identity. It is the same as Steph for Robin, but her fans can't let it go.

Overall I just don't feel she added anything to the identity or legacy. I mean her "death" in War Games was already done far better by Jason, and Carrie is the first female Robin and part of one of the most iconic Batman stories of all time. So I'm fine with including her with the main 4, but I just don't think Steph did enough to be counted with them. I mean Starro/Jarro in Snyder's JL run has been wearing the Robin costume longer than Steph ever has, haha. Why isn't he included there?

----------


## Aahz

> jason going to the circus to see dick grayson? jason being adjancent to  the LOA? Jason being red robin, jason murdering his teach after being taught how to do the job right.


Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.

Appart fro this:
- Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
- Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
- iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory

----------


## Aahz

> Steph on the other hand? Someone said it was 4 issues. Now, I'm not discounting her fans nor her contributions over the years. But she was Robin for four issues? Come on.


Btw. Bruce Wayne Jr. (the Robin from the imaginary silver age stories) hat that many appearances (that I could find, there might be more) and those were complete stories .

----------


## Godlike13

> Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
> 
> Appart fro this:
> - Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
> - Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
> - iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory


Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?

----------


## Aahz

> Who do you think Red Robin was designed for?


For Dick.

Maybe I formulated it wrong, what I wanted say that this that it is not one of his most iconic costume designs. Reusing it for an other Robin is imo not really taking anything from him. 

And as far as I can tell Jasons time as Red Robin was also never referenced in the current continuity, and is by most fans not really considered relevant (I think most were probably happy when he ditched that and went back to beeing Red Hood).

The only Robin where being "Red Robin" is really an important part of his history is Tim, and he used this identity after Jason (and the General) used it.

----------


## redmax99

> Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
> 
> Appart fro this:
> - Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
> - Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
> - iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory


no i was asking Rakiduam what Jason Took from Tim and Damian, because they said jason took from all of the robins to make his history interesting.those was just my examples to counter point if they said yes.

----------


## Digifiend

> Variant covers for Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1.
> Dick has four covers. They chose Carrie over Jason for the 80's cover, weird.
> 
> 1940s - Jim Lee (cover coming soon)


And here it is.

----------


## dietrich

> Most of this stuff is from pre Flashpoint before Lobdell ever wrote Jason, only exception is the circus thing and thats not really taken from Tim, since Jason didn't saw Tims parents die.
> 
> Appart fro this:
> - Jason used Red Robin before Tim, technically Dick used it first in an else world but it is note really an iconic identity or design for him
> - Jason's connection to the LOA was iirc revealed around the time Damian showed up, and since UtRH predates Damians first introduction, that connection might have been actually been planned before Damian was created
> - iirc Thalia killed Damian's teachers and not he himself, and I think that this was also only added after Flashpoint, while Jason killing his teachers was established pre Flashpoint and I'm not really sure if it is still part of his post Flashpoint backstory


 Damian was created in Birth of the Demon. 
Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

All the Dick covers look great. Particularly love the one with Batman and Batgirl.

On the subject of Steph: wasn't her tenure as Robin involved in one of the most maligned Batman stories ever, and doesn't do her or Bruce any favors as characters? If DC does a similar celebration for the Batgirl identity she should definitely get some covers, but her time as Robin was brief and sucked for everyone involved (including her). Who needs to be reminded of any of it?




> While i don’t really care one way or the other about Steph getting a cover, but where is Duke then?
> 
> Also I don’t care how much one is a fan a Jason, his death was by far the most remarkable thing that happen during his tenure by a huge margin. *Saving Superman isn’t even in the ball park. Come on now.*


And the one improvement the JLU adaptation made was giving that bit to Wonder Woman, because otherwise she just gets beat up by Mongul and dropped out of the story. It's not a remarkable moment if they can give it to another character and have it work even better

----------


## Aahz

> Damian was created in Birth of the Demon. 
> Also Ibn in Kingdom come both predate UTRH.


There was also Tallant Wayne from "Brotherhood of the Bat",but those are all pretty different from Damian, had a very different training and were not part of the main continuity at  the time of UtRH.

----------


## Digifiend

Here's that last cover again, inked and coloured:

----------


## Drako

SPOILERS for Batman Beyond #40.

*spoilers:*
Dicks' daughter Ellaina is the New Batwoman.
*end of spoilers*

Links for the pages: https://imgur.com/a/qxDxipE

----------


## Rac7d*

> SPOILERS for Batman Beyond #40.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Dicks' daughter Ellaina is the New Batwoman.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Links for the pages: https://imgur.com/a/qxDxipE


Who is the mother

----------


## Godlike13

Who is Ellaina?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Who is Ellaina?


His daughter apparently

----------


## dietrich

> Who is Ellaina?


*spoilers:*
 The mysterious Batwoman in Batman Beyond who it turns out is Dick's Daughter but we don't yet know the mum 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Tulku

> His daughter apparently


Yes.  Batman Beyond #25 (December 2018) introduced us to this BB Continuity's Dick Grayson, who has become Mayor of Bludhaven and has a daughter, Elainna.  He wants her to have a "normal" safe life, although apparently she was in "the service."  I don't think we have learned who her mother is, although Dick indicates that her mother is the reason he wants Elainna to stay away from the caped set.

(I referred to "this BB Continuity" because the various BB books seem to all have their own continuity each time they relaunch and the past stories don't necessarily transfer over to the next series.  I think we are currently on "Volume 6" but I could easily have lost count...)

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yes.  Batman Beyond #25 (December 2018) introduced us to this BB Continuity's Dick Grayson, who has become Mayor of Bludhaven and has a daughter, Elainna.  He wants her to have a "normal" safe life, although apparently she was in "the service."  I don't think we have learned who her mother is, although Dick indicates that her mother is the reason he wants Elainna to stay away from the caped set.
> 
> (I referred to "this BB Continuity" because the various BB books seem to all have their own continuity each time they relaunch and the past stories don't necessarily transfer over to the next series.  I think we are currently on "Volume 6" but I could easily have lost count...)


Sounds like babs or Shawn

----------


## Godlike13

I doubt Jurgan's even knows who Shawn is.

----------


## Digifiend

Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.

Babs would make sense. I think we can rule out Huntress (as that would probably make Elainna dark skinned) and Starfire (she'd inherit her superpowers). Of course, Mom may not even be an established character.

And yes, the Rebirth series is volume 6.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Sounds like babs or Shawn


I'm going with neither. Unless Dick and Babs got a divorce, but it hasn't been referenced at all.

And Shawn... Yeah. That's a one and done and basically swept under the rug at this point.

----------


## Katana500

> Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.
> 
> Babs would make sense. I think we can rule out Huntress (as that would probably make Elainna dark skinned) and Starfire (she'd inherit her superpowers). Of course, Mom may not even be an established character.
> 
> And yes, the Rebirth series is volume 6.


Elainna means "sun ray". So I think Starfire is the best bet. 

Do we know that human - tammeranian children necessarilly inherit the powers? Didn't Damian and Dick's daughter Mar'i in Kingdom Come have two children and one looked tammeranian and the other human.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Clearly he doesn't, considering he's Nightwing's current writer, and she hasn't been used.


As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."

----------


## Zaresh

She has dark eyes. The mother would have to have dark eyes (brown, I guess. But comics paint black eyes dark blue too), if they tried to follow some semblance of biological logic.

----------


## WonderNight

From what I've seen of her she seems cool and interesting looking forward to her as batwoman. Oh isn't this canon?

I doubt the mother is babs, starfire or helena. So who would you think/like to be the mother if not those three.

----------


## dietrich

I would like an original character or one that's never revealed. Just don't make it another Dc Character that'll just add more sides to the shipping war.

----------


## dietrich

> As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."


I like Shawn especially after the Nightwing must die arc. She levelled up a lot

----------


## Jackalope89

> I like Shawn especially after the Nightwing must die arc. She levelled up a lot


Shawn wasn't a bad character, to be sure. But in the grand scheme of things, just not that up there.

----------


## Digifiend

> Oh isn't this canon?


If I understand right, vols 5 and 6 of Beyond are set in the Futures End continuity.

----------


## redmax99

> If I understand right, vols 5 and 6 of Beyond are set in the Futures End continuity.


it's set in the rebirth continunity. future ends only meant to bring them in to mainverse they even mention dick getting shot by kgbeast

----------


## Digifiend

Then that's ANOTHER set of characters listed on the Fandom wiki incorrectly. They have Conner and Bart from Young Justice listed as Prime Earth when both are actually definitely the pre-Flashpoint characters and thus should be listed as New Earth. In Conner's case that means they have two different characters' stuff mixed in together, and it'll be the same for the Beyond characters. :Mad:

----------


## Frontier

> As much as I loved Seeley, Shawn always felt pretty forgettable. He never really wanted to do Bludhaven, and I think that Shawn is a product of that. "Oh well I have to do this? Um... here is a... *checks notes* ...love interest."


I think he was a little more into her then that, because he seemed happy to be introducing some new romance in Dick's life, but maybe his lack of enthusiasm for Bludhaven effected how he wrote her.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I think he was a little more into her then that, because he seemed happy to be introducing some new romance in Dick's life, but maybe his lack of enthusiasm for Bludhaven effected how he wrote her.


Yeah, in effort to be comical I may have minimized his investment in her, but he certainly had much more enthusiasm for Batman's global strike force of one. I think he lack of enthusiasm for the city permeated every arc set in Bludhaven and influenced her as much as anyone. In any case, there was never a point where she felt like a character that would outlast her creator.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).

----------


## Blue22

I liked Shawn. I was actually kinda bummed when her pregnancy turned out to be a false alarm. Out of the MANY women Dick's been paired with, both in and out of canon, she's the only one aside from the usual two that I really have a damn about seeing him with.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).


Svoboda. I like her too. 

The problem with Shawn was they rush it. She's just introduced and now she's suddenly the love of his life, they do a date montage, and fans of Kori didn't take kindly to Kori being relegated to just a college fling that's not comparable to Shawn, which, objectively, they're right, Kori wasn't just a college fling. 

Also, Seeley (and King) is the one who makes Dick says he'll always come back to Babs. 

So when Seeley left and she doesn't appear again, then it's back to DickBabs tease, it only serves to reinforce the idea that... yeah... we figured that it's not gonna last that long

----------


## Rac7d*

> Svoboda. I like her too. 
> 
> The problem with Shawn was they rush it. She's just introduced and now she's suddenly the love of his life, they do a date montage, and fans of Kori didn't take kindly to Kori being relegated to just a college fling that's not comparable to Shawn, which, objectively, they're right, Kori wasn't just a college fling. 
> 
> Also, Seeley (and King) is the one who makes Dick says he'll always come back to Babs. 
> 
> So when Seeley left and she doesn't appear again, then it's back to DickBabs tease, it only serves to reinforce the idea that... yeah... we figured that it's not gonna last that long


In the timeline they created she is a college fling from 17-21 then they split and then barely talk anymore 
The problem that kori has never dated anyone else after dick of any significance aside from Roy

----------


## Restingvoice

> In the timeline they created she is a college fling from 17-21 then they split and then barely talk anymore


Yeah, and that's the other problem. In a long time characters like these, people's emotional memory of a classic story will be stronger than whatever new facts DC makes because that's what a good story will do to readers. So if the new facts they make are not better than what they have, it will be rejected.

So the thing they shouldn't do when promoting a new love interest is not to downplay the old one.

----------


## Godlike13

The post New 52 Nightwing books had nothing to do with that.

----------


## L.H.

> Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).


This. I liked Svoboda since her first appearance. Shawn was interesting for a couple of issues, than the rushed romance and the whole pregnancy plot ruined everything. I'm still pissed  of for the Dick/Helena relationship, top.
And I agree with Restingvoice: downplaying the old love interests doesn't make the new one appealing

----------


## Badou

I'm completely indifferent towards Shawn, but I did really dislike the pregnancy scare story as I thought it was dumb. Everyone knew she wouldn't be pregnant and it was so much pointless drama and Dick acting like a headcase. Also hated how Seeley wrapped up the Helena romance in Nightwing after it was built up so slowly in the Grayson series. It was massively disappointing to see how the Grayson series was basically cancelled for Rebirth just as it was about to start its big Spy Wars arc, and I kind of wish Seeley had just left the Helena romance hanging in the Grayson series than to quickly bring it back at the end of his Nightwing run and rush some unsatisfying conclusion for it. 

But the main reason Shawn was created was because Dick had no reason to give a shit about Bludhaven when Rebirth started. He had never been there, knew no one there, and was only going there because Rebirth Superman told him to go there randomly since that is where DC wanted the Rebirth Nightwing run set. So because Dick had no connection to Bludhaven Seeley was left trying to figure out a way to have Dick care about it. So he created Shawn as a way to tie Dick to the city and anchor him there, which made the romance feel rushed and Dick talking about how she "might be the one" felt unearned, but Seeley needed her character otherwise Dick acting like Bludhaven is some super important place to him would feel even more out of place than it already does. 

As for Dick's future or alt reality kids I really don't care about any of them. They all feel completely forgettable and I have no desire to see them again in a story. Although I think in general most alt/future children comic stories are pretty bad. It is really tough to write a story like that where it works I think.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah its funny how people forget why shawn was created in the first place.  Dick needed something to connect him to bludhaven.

----------


## Fergus

> Shawn could have easily lived in Gotham and there'd hardly be any difference. Probably the only decent thing to come out of new Bludhaven, along with She Bullock (forgot her name, but her and Harvey on the force together would be gold).


Svoboda and Bullock on the force together is an inspired idea.

In hindsight the mysterious Batwoman was only ever going to be Dick's daughter.

I want to know more about Dick's life in Beyond and his road to Mayor and Divorce. That's unlikely I know but I'm still curious

The issues with Dick have been good either way I hope we keep getting more of him in that world.

----------


## Rac7d*

Am I able to change the title

----------


## Godlike13

No, have to ask a mod.

----------


## gregpersons

> Svoboda and Bullock on the force together is an inspired idea.


I agree, and I'd go further to say I don't think Bludhaven needs to be a separate city from Gotham. Even after almost 30 years of its existence, I still feel like it works better if it's a borough rather than a sister city. 

Bludhaven should be like Hell's Kitchen... part of Gotham that becomes Nightwing's "exclusive" territory.

----------


## Godlike13

Bludhaven is already like Hell Kitchen. Too much so, it’s one of it’s biggest pitfalls.

----------


## Ascended

> I agree, and I'd go further to say I don't think Bludhaven needs to be a separate city from Gotham. Even after almost 30 years of its existence, I still feel like it works better if it's a borough rather than a sister city. 
> 
> Bludhaven should be like Hell's Kitchen... part of Gotham that becomes Nightwing's "exclusive" territory.


I think the last thing Dick needs is to be tied even tighter to Bruce and Gotham. DC already treats him like a sidekick, and one with less autonomy than even Damian. Making Bludhaven a neighborhood in Gotham.....you might as well just say Dick never stopped being Bruce's junior partner.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think the last thing Dick needs is to be tied even tighter to Bruce and Gotham. DC already treats him like a sidekick, and one with less autonomy than even Damian. Making Bludhaven a neighborhood in Gotham.....you might as well just say Dick never stopped being Bruce's junior partner.


Yeah I really don't get it, do people really what nightwing to be up under batman and batfamily that much. He's just a sidekick in a sea of sidekicks now, wanting dick that close and under batman, batfamily and Gotham kill his potential and I wouldn't blame DC for not giving a crap about him. 

Seriously what's the point of him growing up and becoming nightwing in the first place if he's just going to continue to be batman's sidekick.

----------


## gregpersons

> I think the last thing Dick needs is to be tied even tighter to Bruce and Gotham. DC already treats him like a sidekick, and one with less autonomy than even Damian. Making Bludhaven a neighborhood in Gotham.....you might as well just say Dick never stopped being Bruce's junior partner.


No, it just depends on how it's executed. Catwoman had control of the East End in the Brubaker era, and she wasn't Batman's junior partner... she was as independent as Nightwing's ever been, yet she was still in Gotham.

Bludhaven hasn't established itself as anything more than Gotham Jr, and worse, the name is stupid... so why not just incorporate it into Gotham? It makes no difference where he's at, really, because when the Batbooks need him, they'll get him.

Just treat Gotham like NYC is for Marvel... big enough for all sorts of different independent heroes who have links to each other but, like, Daredevil isn't Spider-Man's junior partner.

----------


## WonderNight

> No, it just depends on how it's executed. Catwoman had control of the East End in the Brubaker era, and she wasn't Batman's junior partner... she was as independent as Nightwing's ever been, yet she was still in Gotham.
> 
> Bludhaven hasn't established itself as anything more than Gotham Jr, and worse, the name is stupid... so why not just incorporate it into Gotham? It makes no difference where he's at, really, because when the Batbooks need him, they'll get him.
> 
> Just treat Gotham like NYC is for Marvel... big enough for all sorts of different independent heroes who have links to each other but, like, Daredevil isn't Spider-Man's junior partner.


you can't compare nightwing to catwoman. Catwoman is a female love interest for batman and everything about her is about the batman mythos. Nobody at DC ever says catwoman is redundant with batman or Robin but nightwing? 

Yes bludhaven makes nightwing into batman jr.

You can't turn gotham into nyc, Gotham is built from the ground up for batman, It's his kingdom. Don't believe me  just go to wonder woman's and green arrows thread and say you'd want them In Gotham and see what they say.

Seriously what is the point of dick becoming nightwing if he's just going to be under batman? What's the difference between being robin or nightwing anymore. They mine so well pull a babs and make dick robin again at this point.

----------


## byrd156

Anything new going on? Haven't payed attention to comics for a few months now.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Anything new going on? Haven't payed attention to comics for a few months now.


Crimes of passion tommorow

----------


## Ascended

> No, it just depends on how it's executed. Catwoman had control of the East End in the Brubaker era, and she wasn't Batman's junior partner... she was as independent as Nightwing's ever been, yet she was still in Gotham.


Selina was never a sidekick. You're right, it does depend on execution and Dick working in Gotham *could* work. 

But if he's supposed to be an independent hero and not a sidekick, he can't operate as a sidekick. The Robins also operate out of Gotham "independently" and Dick doing the same is just him sidekicking. 




> Bludhaven hasn't established itself as anything more than Gotham Jr, and worse, the name is stupid...


All depends on the execution doesn't it?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And who said Dick's only options are Gotham or Bludhaven?




> Just treat Gotham like NYC is for Marvel... big enough for all sorts of different independent heroes who have links to each other but, like, Daredevil isn't Spider-Man's junior partner.


But Gotham is Batman's town. Marvel NYC was made for cohabitation.

----------


## KangMiRae

I'm so disappointed, the Crimes of Passion book didn't give me any Nightwing x Catwoman!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dietrich

> I'm so disappointed, the Crimes of Passion book didn't give me any Nightwing x Catwoman!


smh. What a tease. They never give us the really juicy crack storyline's that are guaranteed to piss tons of fans off but are obviously worth it. We get Ric. Boring story that pissed us off and just keeps going and going and going.

----------


## Digifiend

Crimes of Passion did have a Dick Babs story. Was set in the past, probably just before Dick was shot.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Fergus

Saw this storyline on Reddit anout Ric's wasted potential and how it could have been properly realised. Clearly a lot of work went into this but just wanted to run it by Dick fans on Cbr

I’ll admit likes a lot of other people when dc first rolled out this nightwing amnesia arc I wasn’t really into either, but when nightwing annual 2 (I’m pretty sure it was annual 2) where it’s revealed the court of owls were messing with his recovery to force him away from Batman to become a owl I fell in love with the idea. Especially post city of bane I felt Batman is in a very vulnerable place and would be desperate to get one of his most trusted friends and ally’s back. I had this whole senecio in my head that after Alfred’s death Batman is desperate to find nightwing so they can both mourn the loss of the man that practically raised then both, that he had stopped going on patrol and spends all day on the bat computer searching the world for nightwing who can’t be found bc he’s become a talon for the courts. They coulda had nightwing attempt to assassinate some other dc character. I was thinking they could do Garth( Aqualad) being the Atlantis diplomat to the surface world and talon ric attacks him taking out his guards and injuring Garth, that would lead Aquaman to being a video of the attack to Batman because of his experiences with the court of owls in the past. And after studying the video for hours Batman finally figured out nightwing is the talon and is brainwashed by the court. The comic coulda had some epic last page too of Selina coming down to the cave to check on Bruce only to find the cave in a mess with the chair through the giant monitor screen( think BTAS bat computer) and when she calls out Bruce’s name he’ll step out of the shadows in some badass bat suit we haven’t seen before decked out to fight through an army of the reanimated corpses of the talons to bring nightwing back. But instead we got the rush job we did that did the whole arc in a handful of issues #MakeDickAndTimGreatAgain

https://co.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/sea...fter=t3_ezdr3d

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

That Crimes of Passion story was honestly whack. Like it just screams "I was written by someone who doesn't actually speak to or know of any PoC." Besides that whole aspect, it was a little rushed and undercooked, but it was still nice seeing Dick as Dick.

----------


## bearman

Well, now DC can hit a minor reset button on Dick.
Personally, I hope Spyral is involved in the new series...Helena and Midnighter, too.
And a separate new Dick and Wally series.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious with Dick generally should he be drawn buffy or lean yet tone?

----------


## Godlike13

Start with different creators.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> That Crimes of Passion story was honestly whack. Like it just screams "I was written by someone who doesn't actually speak to or know of any PoC." Besides that whole aspect, it was a little rushed and undercooked, but it was still nice seeing Dick as Dick.


Can you expand on this? I haven't bought comics since the Ric debacle and I admit I was tempted by this. Less so since the Catwoman thing was clickbait

----------


## dietrich

> Saw this storyline on Reddit anout Ric's wasted potential and how it could have been properly realised. Clearly a lot of work went into this but just wanted to run it by Dick fans on Cbr
> 
> Ill admit likes a lot of other people when dc first rolled out this nightwing amnesia arc I wasnt really into either, but when nightwing annual 2 (Im pretty sure it was annual 2) where its revealed the court of owls were messing with his recovery to force him away from Batman to become a owl I fell in love with the idea. Especially post city of bane I felt Batman is in a very vulnerable place and would be desperate to get one of his most trusted friends and allys back. I had this whole senecio in my head that after Alfreds death Batman is desperate to find nightwing so they can both mourn the loss of the man that practically raised then both, that he had stopped going on patrol and spends all day on the bat computer searching the world for nightwing who cant be found bc hes become a talon for the courts. They coulda had nightwing attempt to assassinate some other dc character. I was thinking they could do Garth( Aqualad) being the Atlantis diplomat to the surface world and talon ric attacks him taking out his guards and injuring Garth, that would lead Aquaman to being a video of the attack to Batman because of his experiences with the court of owls in the past. And after studying the video for hours Batman finally figured out nightwing is the talon and is brainwashed by the court. The comic coulda had some epic last page too of Selina coming down to the cave to check on Bruce only to find the cave in a mess with the chair through the giant monitor screen( think BTAS bat computer) and when she calls out Bruces name hell step out of the shadows in some badass bat suit we havent seen before decked out to fight through an army of the reanimated corpses of the talons to bring nightwing back. But instead we got the rush job we did that did the whole arc in a handful of issues #MakeDickAndTimGreatAgain
> 
> https://co.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/sea...fter=t3_ezdr3d


Unbelievably dumb!

And to think that all the Ric arc needed to make it a hit was Batman looking Epic in a new Badass suit. Smh 

This actually got up votes!

----------


## Godlike13

They have teased the idea of Dick as a Talon with every series sine the New 52. It’s kind of become the current Bat offices lazy go to, and it falls to the creators to try and put a spin on it. Seeley thankfully brought Raptor to it, which was cool. Jurgans on the other hand just had the most generic take on Talon and the Court. I’m not sure if he even did any research, Talon especially was bad he was a such a by the numbers mustache twirling villain. Like something out of a bad cartoon. He barely even resembled any Talon we seen before except for maybe the bad animated film they did. 

That’s being said, they could have ended the current series and relaunched a new Talon series with Dick. It probably would have been better then mindlessly spinning their wheels or retelling the same story beat over and over.

Btw I wonder if it won’t be Tynion’s Batman that fixes Ric but the Gen zero event.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah the dick Babs wasn't great, but lets not pretend that an author who gets like 10pgs to tell a story is going to give it his best go. It was alright. And quite frankly, I was incredibly happy just to be reading Nightwing. And he the art looked great. Dick's suit is pretty killer.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Do you think Dick will ever get respect from DC? What arcs do you wish will be retconned?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah the dick Babs wasn't great, but lets not pretend that an author who gets like 10pgs to tell a story is going to give it his best go. It was alright. And quite frankly, I was incredibly happy just to be reading Nightwing. And he the art looked great. Dick's suit is pretty killer.


I wanted more to the story see them take down the gang I missed them doing stuff like that

----------


## Digifiend

> Btw I wonder if it won’t be Tynion’s Batman that fixes Ric but the Gen zero event.


The fixing is already underway. He got his real memories back last issue, but can't tell them apart from the false implanted memories, which is why he didn't go back to his old self. He's about to encounter Joker, which would likely make him realise the truth. And the annual out in April appears to have him back to normal.

May's solicitations are going to be VERY interesting.

----------


## Ascended

> Do you think Dick will ever get respect from DC? What arcs do you wish will be retconned?


I have little doubt Dick will get the respect he's due from DC. 

Eventually.

He does very well in larger media and does quite respectably in print, even if he's not a Top 10 title. He's been around longer than 99% of comic characters and has never really been out of print for any length of time. He's got one of the most loyal followings in comics and is easily adapted into other formats.

The current management might not see any appeal here, or anything worth investing in. Once they're gone? Wiser heads may see what's gone wrong here.

----------


## Godlike13

> The fixing is already underway. He got his real memories back last issue, but can't tell them apart from the false implanted memories, which is why he didn't go back to his old self. He's about to encounter Joker, which would likely make him realise the truth. And the annual out in April appears to have him back to normal.
> 
> May's solicitations are going to be VERY interesting.


I don’t need a recap, the real memories accomplished nothing and this is still just the same technique they have been abusing to drag things out from the start. Eye dropping teases and Dick bait in an attempt to keep whatever readers they have left on the hook for however long they can. The question is will they continue to lazily drag it out till the Batman’s summer event or leave it to the gen zero event to fix things for them.

----------


## Digifiend

You do realise that there's absolutely nothing between the known solicitations and Free Comic Book Day? FCBD is on May 2nd this year i.e. before the month's first Wednesday. If Generation Zero is the final solution, then it'll be before the next unsolicited issue of Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

The Free Comic is just a preview to what’s coming. As they usually are. They are obviously still dragging Ric out for a reason.  We have assumed it’s Batman’s summer event, but could it be they are waiting for the “seismic-level changes in the DC Universe”.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I wanted more to the story see them take down the gang I missed them doing stuff like that


Oh I wanted more story, too. Only so much you can do with 8 pages.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Does Dick need his own editor at this point? At this point what stories do you want to see once Dick gets back?

----------


## sifighter

> Does Dick need his own editor at this point? At this point what stories do you want to see once Dick gets back?


This will sound silly, but I kind of want Cyborg and Starfire to pick him and the rest of the titans up in their souped up Brainiac ship and go on space adventures. Maybe Raven, Beast Boy, Donna, Wally, Tempest/Garth, and maybe some of the newer members of Titans or Odyssey like Natasha Irons, Miss Martian, Kyle Rayner or Jessica Cruz can tag along as well. I mean he has already been a secret agent so why not Sci-fi adventurer Dick Grayson if they are not gonna really do anything on earth. Besides maybe there is something fun they can do since his name stems from Superman telling him of the Nightwing of Krypton.

----------


## Jackalope89

> This will sound silly, but I kind of want Cyborg and Starfire to pick him and the rest of the titans up in their souped up Brainiac ship and go on space adventures. Maybe Raven, Beast Boy, Donna, Wally, Tempest/Garth, and maybe some of the newer members of Titans or Odyssey like Natasha Irons, Miss Martian, Kyle Rayner or Jessica Cruz can tag along as well. I mean he has already been a secret agent so why not Sci-fi adventurer Dick Grayson if they are not gonna really do anything on earth. Besides maybe there is something fun they can do since his name stems from Superman telling him of the Nightwing of Krypton.


Have him pose as Nightwing of legend on Daxom. With Starfire and the others making it look like he has super powers.

----------


## Restingvoice

> This will sound silly, but I kind of want Cyborg and Starfire to pick him and the rest of the titans up in their souped up Brainiac ship and go on space adventures. Maybe Raven, Beast Boy, Donna, Wally, Tempest/Garth, and maybe some of the newer members of Titans or Odyssey like Natasha Irons, Miss Martian, Kyle Rayner or Jessica Cruz can tag along as well. I mean he has already been a secret agent so why not Sci-fi adventurer Dick Grayson if they are not gonna really do anything on earth. Besides maybe there is something fun they can do since his name stems from Superman telling him of the Nightwing of Krypton.


Heh. Considering Odyssey's sales track, they can use his help.

----------


## Godlike13

Not with Abnett attached. Please, never again.

----------


## sifighter

I didn't say anything about Abnett I just thought it'd be fun to have Space Dick Grayson and the Titans. If I had to put someone on it...my mind goes to Sam Humphries. Loved his work on Green Lanterns and Dial H.

----------


## Badou

Who is excited for the Nightwing book and Dick's character to be dragged into another event/crossover! I'm sure the Joker War story is going to use Dick wonderfully like they always do in these kind of things, and won't throw him under the bus and have him do nothing worthwhile all in order to sacrifice him to push some Batman narrative forward.

----------


## Restingvoice

Dick is still Ric in Pennyworth RIP. I'm canceling. I'm not picking an issue as long as that thing is still canon, and if someone dares to ask if I'm overreacting, I, and many others already explained in long posts the past months why I hate that decision, why it's objectively a bad decision, and I'm not explaining again. Find my previous posts if you like. 

I like the idea of Alfred's death because it's not something I see often, decades, in fact, so it should be something I look forward to as a story, but I don't like King's story surrounding it, so I'm not picking that up. I was willing to be partially immersed for this one issue but now with Dick is still Ric in the eulogy, I can't, so I'm not picking that up either.

----------


## Godlike13

If Dic is still Ric in the memorial issue, he shouldn’t even be there. It’s that simple. It makes no sense. These kinds of nonsensical half measures that please no one, just undercut both sides of the coin.

 This is exactly part of why Ric went right to the pooper. This is Ric, he’s not Dick but he still lives in Bludhaven and does more or less the same shit Dick did at his most boring. This is a new direction, but here are old fashion creators that don’t operate in new or interesting ways. This way of doing things is just buffoonish.

Though did I read that editors note right, the issue takes place prior to Nightwing Annual #2. How do they figure that one lol.

----------


## Ansa

> Though did I read that editors note right, the issue takes place prior to Nightwing Annual #2. How do they figure that one lol.


Does that even work? Because everything in Nightwing Annual 2 takes place before Nightwing #50 and Alfred visits Dick in Nightwing #51...which would be impossible if he was dead.

----------


## Godlike13

Exactly. It absolutely doesn’t work. I guess it could be a typo and its referring to Annual 3, but in that case why would they even be telling us this takes place before something that doesn’t come out for another 3 months give or take.

----------


## Katana500

I really dislike Bludhaven. I hope when 5G hits Dick goes back to Spyral. I just find Bludhaven to be a more bland and less interesting Gotham

----------


## Ansa

> Exactly. It absolutely doesn’t work. I guess it could be a typo and its referring to Annual 3, but in that case why would they even be telling us this takes place before something that doesn’t come out for another 3 months give or take.


I just love it when DC tries to establish some continuity between titles with editor's notes, but when you think about it for a few seconds it makes even less sense.
Before I saw the note I simply assumed this took place when Ric just started to regain his memories, but wasn't fully back to being Dick yet. Or whatever happened in the last few Nightwing issues.

----------


## Digifiend

> Does that even work? Because everything in Nightwing Annual 2 takes place before Nightwing #50 and Alfred visits Dick in Nightwing #51...which would be impossible if he was dead.


Barbara suiting up at any point should prove this one way or the other. If it's before Dick got shot, it would also be while she's still wearing the Burnside costume, as she changed her costume at around the same time Dick was shot. So if she has her current one, it's set after the next few Nightwing issues, and not before the Ric era started. 

It's not possible for it to be between his getting shot and last month's Nightwing issue. And even now, he has his memories back, but not his emotional attachments, since he can't tell them from his fake memories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

But even the most dumb ideas have worked out great for certain villains or other ideas in Batman. So Bludhaven can work. I did do a thread about can Bludhaven work. Or due to his past background he could fight crime place to place. The issue is at times if they don’t use his home he mostly is used more in Batfam. He needs his own place and his own rogue gallery. Or maybe how much crime does happen in Metropolis?

----------


## Godlike13

https://mobile.twitter.com/InakiMira...723721729?s=19

----------


## Badou

Is that one cop Nightwing getting his own solo title?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is that one cop Nightwing getting his own solo title?


He and his friends should have died last arc

----------


## Robanker

> I really dislike Bludhaven. I hope when 5G hits Dick goes back to Spyral. I just find Bludhaven to be a more bland and less interesting Gotham


It only worked for me twice, once in Dixon's run and again during Rebirth for a short time when it was envisioned as kind of Atlantic City. 

Honestly? Make it Vegas-esque. That kind of city fits Dick like a glove. Crime and corruption but all about lights, music and putting on a big show. I think if they play that up and make it look like where all the Gothamites go to spend their money, it could work. Alas, I think the concept's been burned for most.




> https://mobile.twitter.com/InakiMira...723721729?s=19


Wonderful to see a look closer to the iconic suit again, no silly blue stripes on his calves.

----------


## Digifiend

> Is that one cop Nightwing getting his own solo title?


Which one - the four fake Nightwings include three cops (the ones Ric calls Nightwings Prime, Gold, and Blue) and a firefighter (Nightwing Red).

Anyway, I won't be surprised if Joker whacks them.

----------


## Godlike13

The one that looks like his clone obviously.

----------


## Digifiend

You mean Sap then.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Alphonse_..._(Prime_Earth)

----------


## AmiMizuno

> It only worked for me twice, once in Dixon's run and again during Rebirth for a short time when it was envisioned as kind of Atlantic City. 
> Honestly? Make it Vegas-esque. That kind of city fits Dick like a glove. Crime and corruption but all about lights, music and putting on a big show. I think if they play that up and make it look like where all the Gothamites go to spend their money, it could work. Alas, I think the concept's been burned for most.


Agreed. I can see Dick either doing one of the acrobat shows that are in Vegas at times. Or a poker plater.

----------


## Rac7d*

[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4828967]


> It only worked for me twice, once in Dixon's run and again during Rebirth for a short time when it was envisioned as kind of Atlantic City. 
> 
> Honestly? Make it Vegas-esque. That kind of city fits Dick like a glove. Crime and corruption but all about lights, music and putting on a big show. I think if they play that up and make it look like where all the Gothamites go to spend their money, it could work. Alas, I think the concept's been burned for most.
> 
> 
> Agreed. I can see Dick either doing one of the acrobat shows that are in Vegas at times. Or a poker plater.


Didn’t they already do a casino type arc with blockbuster

----------


## AmiMizuno

They have done a few things with the casino parts. Maybe Dick could also be a security guard or a bouncer. That way some of the higher criminals use him. He gets to be in on many talks.

----------


## bearman

I dunno. In any even vaguely realistic scenario, any prospective employer would easily discover Dick is a rather famous person, with a very privileged upbringing. Dick would be foolish to call any more attention to himself by being an amateur commando.
 No one should be hiring this guy as “muscle.”
I would prefer to see Dick get control of his narrative...and yes, acknowledge his connection to Wayne, but set out on a public mission of his own...heading the Martha Wayne Foundation, or something... and traveling around the world to help people, somewhat in the public eye, but answerable to no one. 
I would also love to see a Wally and Dick book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

He became Nightwing to not relay on Bruce. He wants to be his own man. I mean in many ways wouldn't that get him more caught as Nightwing? I mean yeah he is famous but he is able to keep a low enough profile. We don't hear much about him. People aren't chasing I mean there are famous children who we don't hear about much anymore. So Dick can be one of those cases. People only talking about him when he is at majority events. I mean it's the reason he moved from Gotham to Bludhaven

----------


## bearman

That’s another perspective I have never understood....Dick’s unwillingness to let Bruce fund his mission. He IS carrying on the family business...it’s mot like he’s gonna use the Wayne fortune to produce Broadway plays. He knows Bruce did not make his fortune ( although he may have grown it); he was given It by his father. He should let Bruce do the same.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

If you can, you guys should check out pennyworth rip. Tynion did a good job with Ric. Honestly he should’ve been handled like this since the beginning

Edit: also tomasi was on this as well

----------


## AmiMizuno

> That’s another perspective I have never understood....Dick’s unwillingness to let Bruce fund his mission. He IS carrying on the family business...it’s mot like he’s gonna use the Wayne fortune to produce Broadway plays. He knows Bruce did not make his fortune ( although he may have grown it); he was given It by his father. He should let Bruce do the same.


Because he feels like he will still be in his shadow. He wants to feel like his own person. He wants to feel like he can do things on his own and not have to get help all the time. They had a breakdown. So Dick felt cut off. So he wanted to do his own thing. To have Bruce funded means Bruce can still control him. Bruce has been down to be controlling.

----------


## Lazurus33

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

Batman  Pennyworth R.I.P. #1

1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Wow, Jason comes across as a nasty piece of sh!t.

----------


## dietrich

> Wow, Jason comes across as a nasty piece of sh!t.


Why is he wearing shades in-doors? Is it a disguise?

So I guess RHATO Annual and that Rebirth Nightwing issue are out the window? Jason clearly is aware that Richard lost his memory but still seems resentful or unwillingly to take that into account. That's unnecessarily asreholey

----------


## Godlike13

Ric as concept and character is such a mess. There is no consistency at all to his character or what he does. I know I guess I’m suppose to like the moments he’s actually tolerable, but then the other part of me can’t help but put them in context of Ric as a whole. Quite frankly the Ric in RIP just doesn’t fit with anything else they done with him so far. He doesn’t even fit timeline wise where they say, but we went over that already. It just further angers me over how poorly coordinated and executed Ric has been as a hole, and asking why they are still holding on to something they themselves don’t even seem to follow.

----------


## Godlike13

> Wow, Jason comes across as a nasty piece of sh!t.


 The whole family, save for Ric, come off like garbage.

----------


## legion_quest

I think Jason has a point to be fair. Ric has spent months telling the family to leave him alone, then he goes to the funeral and acts sanctimonious to people in grief lashing out at someone who, arguably, should have even more grief on show than they do...but instead he's smiling and vaulting and all the rest. 

It's trashy writing across the board imo, but I understand why Jason would be angry, and given it IS Jason, of course he's going to lash out. He'd have found a way to do that even if Ric was Dick. Anger is how he copes, or doesnt.

----------


## Katana500

> I think Jason has a point to be fair. Ric has spent months telling the family to leave him alone, then he goes to the funeral and acts sanctimonious to people in grief lashing out at someone who, arguably, should have even more grief on show than they do...but instead he's smiling and vaulting and all the rest. 
> 
> It's trashy writing across the board imo, but I understand why Jason would be angry, and given it IS Jason, of course he's going to lash out. He'd have found a way to do that even if Ric was Dick. Anger is how he copes, or doesnt.


When people close to someone dies. It makes sense tensions would be high and people might say things they wouldn't necessarilly said otherwise. Especially in a family as emotionally stunted as the batfamily. Especially as like Barbara said things are falling apart all around them.

----------


## Rac7d*

The May solicit has him reuniting with babs

----------


## Zaresh

> The May solicit has him reuniting with babs


I knew it!
I knew it was going to end before this year's Summer came.
Ha! (XD)

----------


## Badou

They had to drag it out for the dumb Joker War crossover this Summer.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I knew it!
> I knew it was going to end before this year's Summer came.
> Ha! (XD)


Is it ending though? Same writer, same run, same crap. And just to kill any forme of originality same old Babs reunion.

----------


## Zaresh

> Is it ending though? Same writer, same run, same crap. And just to kill any forme of originality same old Babs reunion.


I have high hopes.
Now, I also think they are going to retire Dick from his mantle in the timeskip that 5G brings to the main line of comics. So... monkey's paw I guess. I also think we're going to have plenty of limited series and minis with him as Nightwing in the BL line; but for the next like... 5 years or so, I can see them retiring Dick, or at least, making him something else, or something more, than the vigilante in black and blue suit that's Nightwing.

A good idea for Damian in that timeline could be taking over Nightwing. But that one is less a hunch and more wishful thinking.

----------


## Ascended

If Dick ends up back in costume, that's great, but I'm still going to demand better quality before DC gets my money.

As for 5G....I expect Dick will have no role worth talking about. DC has tried damn hard to get rid of him without actually getting rid of him and incurring fans' wrath, but a time skip (if that indeed happens) would be a fantastic way to write him out. Maybe they'll give him a happy ending, hoping that will be enough to satisfy us. Or maybe they'll just keep abusing him when they're not ignoring him, as they have for the last few years. 

But you never know. I've been wrong before.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

If they are just gonna lazily put him back in costume still under Jurgan’s then better to just kill him. Just pull the trigger, rather then continue the slow death by mediocrity under boring creators no one is clearly interested in anymore.

BTW It’s just more Dick bait. Still Ric in May. Still their go to jobber too it seems. Guess Ric couldn’t escape that fate either. 

https://screenrant.com/nightwing-jok...line-dc-comic/

_Nightwing #72
Written by Dan Jurgens
Art by Ronan Cliquet
Cover by Travis Moore
Variant cover by Alan Quah
Dick Grayson has learned the truth: that “fixing” his identity lies with none other than Barbara Gordon. He must go to Gotham to find Batgirl—and runs into The Joker’s new henchperson, Punchline. Unlike Harley Quinn, Punchline’s deadpan black humor matches the deadly knives she uses on her victims...and for her next joke, Ric Grayson is the punchline.
May 5th, 2020._

No DC. At this point we’re the punchline...

----------


## Rakiduam

> If Dick ends up back in costume, that's great, but I'm still going to demand better quality before DC gets my money.
> 
> As for 5G....I expect Dick will have no role worth talking about. DC has tried damn hard to get rid of him without actually getting rid of him and incurring fans' wrath, but a time skip (if that indeed happens) would be a fantastic way to write him out. Maybe they'll give him a happy ending, hoping that will be enough to satisfy us. Or maybe they'll just keep abusing him when they're not ignoring him, as they have for the last few years. 
> 
> But you never know. I've been wrong before.


I have very little hope for Dick while the current editors remains. For the whole DC to be honest, they really have no idea what to do with their characters.

----------


## WonderNight

> If they are just gonna lazily put him back in costume still under Jurgan’s then better to just kill him. Just pull the trigger, rather then continue the slow death by mediocrity under boring creators no one is clearly interested in anymore.
> 
> BTW It’s just more Dick bait. Still Ric in May. Still their go to jobber too it seem. Guess Ric couldn’t escape that fate either. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-jok...line-dc-comic/
> 
> _Nightwing #72
> Written by Dan Jurgens
> Art by Ronan Cliquet
> ...


When dick gets back he should change his name from nightwing to The Bat Fodder. I'm starting to hate dick being anywhere near Gotham.

----------


## Badou

They need to build up the new villain. So they are having her beat up Ric to show how badass she is. Seems pretty standard-fare for how things go for the character, haha. 

But no surprise they are dragging this out until the Joker War crossover. Dick won't "officially" be back until closer to the climax of that event I imagine. No sense in blowing the one "big" reveal they have early in the crossover.

----------


## Godlike13

To be fair beating up Ric is probably the easiest way to get people to root for a villain right now.

----------


## Ascended

> I have very little hope for Dick while the current editors remains. For the whole DC to be honest, they really have no idea what to do with their characters.


Oh it's not all bad. Definitely better than it was back in 2010, right? Sure, there's plenty of crap on the shelf, but that's always been the case. And yes, right now Nightwing is at an all time low. Are these the worst sales and rankings he's ever had? They might be. Management itself seems to be against him. Dark days indeed, for our boy. But there's good stuff coming out of DC right now too. I mean, Superman Smashes the Klan is easily worth all the crap books I'm not buying anyway. That thing is a gem. Required reading for anyone who wants to be able to recognize a good story. Morrison's Green Lantern is a real trip. There's DC books worth reading. 

But generally speaking, no I don't think DC does know what to do with their roster. Or more accurately, I don't think they know what to do with their industry. More and more it seems like we're slowly approaching a turning point, and the people in charge (not just at DC, but all the publishers) have yet to find a successful strategy to deal with it.

----------


## xiyon

> When dick gets back he should change his name from nightwing to The Bat Fodder. I'm starting to hate dick being anywhere near Gotham.


I just read _DC's Crimes of Passion #1_, and in it Dick gets taken out by a kid with a metal pipe. And I'm just sad. The Dick/Babs-centric story itself felt like it wasted a lot of pages, too.

Best one, by far, was definitely Green Arrow & Black Canary's story.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If they are just gonna lazily put him back in costume still under Jurgan’s then better to just kill him. Just pull the trigger, rather then continue the slow death by mediocrity under boring creators no one is clearly interested in anymore.
> 
> BTW It’s just more Dick bait. Still Ric in May. Still their go to jobber too it seems. Guess Ric couldn’t escape that fate either. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-jok...line-dc-comic/
> 
> [I]Nightwing #72
> Written by Dan Jurgens
> Art by Ronan Cliquet
> ...


The memory bullet she extracted from his nipple in the Dark Web story arc?

----------


## Fergus

I doubt that DC's going to retire Dick with 5G with a time skip. That means that DC's going to be retiring all heroes from around Dick's age upwards which would include Luke who is still fit enough to do hero work so why would Dick retire?
That's an awful lot of replacements. The Batfamily has at least enough younger heroes to step in as replacements

Damian and Tim can cover Dick and Jason's mantle's. Duke becomes Batwing. Steph is Batgirl and Cass is Batwoman but what about other heroes who don't come from large franchises?

Even if we are making the argument that DC's not invested in Dick right now then why go to the effort of even finding a replacement when they can just let him and his title keep chugging along. Even with the awful Ric that bled readers Nightwing is still a better seller than some.
I doubt a replacement taking over Nightwing would do so well even if it's Damian in the position it'll still tank because the set up is wrong and fans are upset.

I don't see Dick retiring and in the unlikely event that he does then he shouldn't be replaced.

----------


## Fergus

> If they are just gonna lazily put him back in costume still under Jurgan’s then better to just kill him. Just pull the trigger, rather then continue the slow death by mediocrity under boring creators no one is clearly interested in anymore.
> 
> BTW It’s just more Dick bait. Still Ric in May. Still their go to jobber too it seems. Guess Ric couldn’t escape that fate either. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-jok...line-dc-comic/
> 
> _Nightwing #72
> Written by Dan Jurgens
> Art by Ronan Cliquet
> ...


Jesus what the heck is wrong with DC?

----------


## Rac7d*

> If they are just gonna lazily put him back in costume still under Jurgan’s then better to just kill him. Just pull the trigger, rather then continue the slow death by mediocrity under boring creators no one is clearly interested in anymore.
> 
> BTW It’s just more Dick bait. Still Ric in May. Still their go to jobber too it seems. Guess Ric couldn’t escape that fate either. 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/nightwing-jok...line-dc-comic/
> 
> _Nightwing #72
> Written by Dan Jurgens
> Art by Ronan Cliquet
> ...


It says dick Grayson

----------


## Digifiend

Remember, he got his memories back last month. He just lacks the emotional attachment to them as he can't tell them from his fake ones. And that's clearly continued from April's Batgirl issue. Presumably he's starting to realise the truth, and that's why he's happy to let Babs help. She has a perfect memory, if she can somehow train Dick to function the same way, it would cure him. Also, it looks like "Ric"'s supporting cast has been eliminated.

The annual, in which he seems to be fully restored, must be set after the ongoing.

----------


## Godlike13

We are aware Dick is coming back. But it’s clearly being stretched still.




> It says dick Grayson


It’s bait, read it till the end.

----------


## Digifiend

In other news...

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...-page-giant-1/

----------


## Godlike13

I assume it’s Tim again, lol.

----------


## SanityOrMadness

> I doubt that DC's going to retire Dick with 5G with a time skip. That means that DC's going to be retiring all heroes from around Dick's age upwards which would include Luke who is still fit enough to do hero work so why would Dick retire?


The (non-final) version of the 60-year timeline shown at a con had the characters largely debuting in _publication_ order - not precisely, in that Superman, Batman and closely related characters like Dick debut alongside the rest of the Silver Age JLA (except Wonder Woman); but as a general rule - rather than characters who are currently the same age ending up "still the same age as each other, only older".

Luke didn't debut until the 2010s, so if he was aged at all, it would only be by a few years to his late-20s/early-30s (a similar age to Bruce's "classic" age. Tim was also going to be a similar sort of age). By comparison, Dick was due to get enough time dumped on him to make him late-40s or early-50s. IIRC, and having been Robin for the better part of a decade before Jason showed up.

----------


## Badou

Why is Jason on the cover of a Titans book? That is weird. 

Seems both new stories are about Raven. The rest are just reprints.

----------


## Badou

> The (non-final) version of the 60-year timeline shown at a con had the characters largely debuting in _publication_ order - not precisely, in that Superman, Batman and closely related characters like Dick debut alongside the rest of the Silver Age JLA (except Wonder Woman); but as a general rule - rather than characters who are currently the same age ending up "still the same age as each other, only older".
> 
> Luke didn't debut until the 2010s, so if he was aged at all, it would only be by a few years to his late-20s/early-30s (a similar age to Bruce's "classic" age. Tim was also going to be a similar sort of age). By comparison, Dick was due to get enough time dumped on him to make him late-40s or early-50s. IIRC.


That is going to make things awkward for Babs and Duke since they used to date. She is randomly going to be a lot older than him when Dick, Duke and Babs were all supposed to be the same age in the New 52. 

But people thinking 5G is going to last for a long time are wrong. It will last a year or so and then DC will reboot things back to being a more normal or classing set up. They aren't going to keep Bruce being old for long, and especially him not as Batman.

----------


## Digifiend

> I assume it’s Tim again, lol.


It's pretty much the New Teen Titans minus Wally and Cyborg... and for some reason, with Red Hood. It's definitely Dick this time. The Giants are AU though, so this has nothing to do with the Ric story. At least you'll get to read a more classic Dick Grayson.

----------


## SanityOrMadness

> That is going to make things awkward for Babs and Duke since they used to date. She is randomly going to be a lot older than him when Dick, Duke and Babs were all supposed to be the same age in the New 52.


You mean Luke/Batwing, not Duke/Signal, right?




> But people thinking 5G is going to last for a long time are wrong. It will last a year or so and then DC will reboot things back to being a more normal or classing set up. They aren't going to keep Bruce being old for long, and especially him not as Batman.


Well, yeah, that's the obvious conclusion, and Doomsday Clock even lampshaded it. But it looks like they're doing it in such a way as to make the reversal as hard as possible to pull off without hitting the "F██k It, REBOOT!" button to at least the same extent as the N52 did. It's not an aging ray scenario, they're changing the whole universe to (nearly) negate the sliding timeline, meaning Luke & Barbara won't even remember being the same age - if they dated at all, it'll have been as an older woman/younger man thing. And already-older characters like Jim Gordon and Lucius Fox will probably be straight-up killed off by it all.

Maybe they'll set up an "out" in Death Metal or whatever Generation Zero leads into. If they don't, the end of "5G" is going to be messy.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, I meant Luke and not Duke. That is who Babs dated. Their names are too similar, lol.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> In other news...
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...-page-giant-1/


This is the live action season 1 roster. Just without Hawk and Dove.

----------


## Ascended

> I doubt that DC's going to retire Dick with 5G with a time skip. That means that DC's going to be retiring all heroes from around Dick's age upwards


They could easily have Dick retire early (or die, or go missing) while the rest of his peers continue on.

As for the 5G timeline....supposedly we're getting books set in different eras, so even if characters have died or retired in the modern day, there'll still be titles with them in their prime, too. Some rumors say Black Label mini's, some rumors say multiple titles set within a particular generation, some rumors say the whole line will jump into 5G with both feet. Who knows what we'll get in the end? 

And management does change its mind about some things, and change their efforts and methodology. Wasn't that long ago DIdio was bitching about Batman looking old, yet here we are contemplating a sixty-eighty year timeline where Bruce would probably be dead by today. And it's not like Dick was treated like *complete* crap as soon as current management walked into the room. Dick's never been a priority under Didio, and Didio has tried to get rid of him, but it wasn't until the last few years that DC *really* started taking a sh*t on Dick's head. That *could* change again, and if DC is honestly trying to use its history and legacy to its advantage, there's no better example to base it around than the NTT.

I don't expect it. I expect DC to keep treating Dick as poorly as they can. But as they say, when you prepare for the worst, all surprises are pleasant ones.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I think Jason has a point to be fair. Ric has spent months telling the family to leave him alone, then he goes to the funeral and acts sanctimonious to people in grief lashing out at someone who, arguably, should have even more grief on show than they do...but instead he's smiling and vaulting and all the rest. 
> 
> It's trashy writing across the board imo, but I understand why Jason would be angry, and given it IS Jason, of course he's going to lash out. He'd have found a way to do that even if Ric was Dick. Anger is how he copes, or doesnt.


Admittedly, this Ric arc has been a disaster from the start, poorly written and poorly integrated with the rest of the books DC is putting out.

That being said Ric, in canon, has a TBI. He has no memory of his family. Besides Alfred and Babs, he has had no positive interactions with his family. Bruce brought him to the cave and showed him his still bloodied suit while the trauma was still fresh.Tim and Jason have been completely absent. Realistically, based on those interactions who would want to be involved in that family? Jason was completely out of line, he never offered to help get Dick back on his feet and is the first person to kick him when he's down. 

I mean a lot of it has to do with Tynion viewing the Batboys as one dimensional characters i.e. Jason is the angry one. Dick is the nice one. Tim is the smart one.

----------


## Rakiduam

> In other news...
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...-page-giant-1/


They really have to shove Jason everywhere. Going to pass on this one too

----------


## Digifiend

> I mean a lot of it has to do with Tynion viewing the Batboys as one dimensional characters i.e. Jason is the angry one. Dick is the nice one. Tim is the smart one.


Huh? It was King who described them that way, in Heroes in Crisis. And I think it's telling that the family isn't used much in his Batman run.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Huh? It was King who described them that way, in Heroes in Crisis.


He boxes them too in Eternal

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why is it that Grayson gets no love in the new 52 animated movies? Is it because it was not well written in  New 52? A lot of the time he gets his butt handed to him.

----------


## WonderNight

> Why is it that Grayson gets no love in the new 52 animated movies? Is it because it was not well written in  New 52? A lot of the time he gets his butt handed to him.


Because his never the lead or the star driving the ship. His role there is jobber a.k.a put over the bad guys so that Batman/Robin or whoever the lead is can win and look good for the big finally.

If those movies were nightwing movie then he'd need to be the one put over.

----------


## Badou

> Why is it that Grayson gets no love in the new 52 animated movies? Is it because it was not well written in  New 52? A lot of the time he gets his butt handed to him.


He gets his butt handed to him in the comics too, even in his own solo he struggles massively. So I guess that is consistent, lol. 

I mean he constantly got his ass kicked in Abnett's Titans run, gets beaten up in every Batman or JL crossover he gets put in, and pretty much has zero stories outside his own solo that give him any actual focus as a main character where he feels like a major player in the DCU. I mean the only big story he has been in where he was somewhat heavily featured since the New 52 happened was being in that Forever Evil JL event, but he spent that whole event getting beaten up by the Crime Syndicate and being chained to a chair. That is just who Dick's character has been since the New 52.

----------


## Digifiend

Robin special creative teams named: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...r-spectacular/

I believe these are Dick's:

Marv Wolfman and Tom Grummett
Chuck Dixon and Scott McDaniel
Devin Grayson and Dan Jurgens
Tom King & Tim Seeley and Mikel Janin

----------


## Frontier

> Why is it that Grayson gets no love in the new 52 animated movies? Is it because it was not well written in  New 52? A lot of the time he gets his butt handed to him.


I wouldn't say he got no love at all.

I mean, yeah, in some movies he got beat up a lot and _Bad Blood_ didn't do his Batman justice but his characterization was pretty much always on-point and Judas Contract was peak-Nightwing in my opinion.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So in terms of Dick. How should Dick be written? In terms of fighters where is he? Should he be able to beat Damian? How great should his fighting be?

----------


## xiyon

> So in terms of Dick. How should Dick be written? In terms of fighters where is he? Should he be able to beat Damian? How great should his fighting be?


I'm honestly not sure anymore. 

As a fan, I'd like to think-- and this is taking all of Dick's history and accumulated battle experience-- that he should, at least, be able to make Slade work for a victory (though Slade would win 6 times out of 10), and at least dominate Damian in a fight. In the latter's case, I'd say Damian's more skilled, but Dick's more experienced. What tips the fight in Dick's favor is he's a grown man-- greater muscle mass & longer reach, which _are_ relevant attributes in a fight. It's not so much that just because Damian's a kid that he'd lose, but Dick's not supposed to be some mook, either. Once Damian grows up, though, he'd kick Dick's ass so hard he'd start calling himself Ric.

But given all we've seen so far, it's a wonder how Dick has survived as long as he has. A simple breeze could probably break his back.

At this point, I'd be happy if Dick's fighting ability is at least as competent as Jason-- which it isn't, so there goes my mood...

Keeping on the same subject, what sort of fighting style should Dick have?

I'd like to think he'd be the bastard fighter. He'd use his surroundings, and he's not above throwing dirt in your eyes and sucker punch you.

----------


## Robanker

> Robin special creative teams named: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...r-spectacular/
> 
> I believe these are Dick's:
> 
> Marv Wolfman and Tom Grummett
> Chuck Dixon and Scott McDaniel
> Devin Grayson and Dan Jurgens
> Tom King & Tim Seeley and Mikel Janin


While I may not like a lot of what Dixon is doing nowadays, seeing him and McDaniel on (presumably) Dick Grayson again does rekindle some nostalgia for their run. Hope their reunion story is a good one.




> So in terms of Dick. How should Dick be written? In terms of fighters where is he? Should he be able to beat Damian? How great should his fighting be?


Certainly below the likes of Cass, Shiva, Richard Dragon (when DC remembers he exists) and Black Canary. Likely Batman as well, but just beneath him. 

I can see Dick taking most other members of the Bat family, certainly Damian. Perhaps it's just the way I've always perceived the brat (and most braggarts in general), but his bark far outreaches his bite. I would argue Dick's fighting ability is respectable, primarily because his acrobatic skill and flexibility make him particularly difficult to connect hits on when he's on his game.

Also, never underestimate his ability to shit talk his foes into losing a bit of focus.

----------


## Aahz

> Certainly below the likes of Cass, Shiva, Richard Dragon (when DC remembers he exists) and Black Canary. Likely Batman as well, but just beneath him.


Imo Dick and Jason should be roughly on the same level as Bruce.

I would put him actually above Canary, she doesn't really has that many impressive showings as martial artist imo, especially in the current continuity.

----------


## Aahz

> As a fan, I'd like to think-- and this is taking all of Dick's history and accumulated battle experience-- that he should, at least, be able to make Slade work for a victory (though Slade would win 6 times out of 10),


I think Slade is not good for comparison since he is to inconsistently written.
If he is written on the top end of the spectrum the only Batfamily member that should have chance is Azrael (when he is also written at the top end of his spectrum).

----------


## xiyon

> Certainly below the likes of Cass, Shiva, Richard Dragon (when DC remembers he exists) and Black Canary. Likely Batman as well, but just beneath him.


Bit iffy on Canary (without her powers), but agreed with Cass & Shiva. Cass' ability is a borderline-superpower, imho, and, while maybe not possessing as much mass, depending on the portrayal, she at least has much longer reach than Damian, and a more developed musculature given her age. She'd basically read every move you make and counter it before it hits her. And that's before her skill comes into play.

I'd think, in a straight fist fight, nobody in the Batfam could consistently beat Cass. Bruce might if he managed to land a haymaker (in my head, given how Bruce is typically portrayed, he's the one and only heavy-weight boxer in their group), but I'd think Cass would easily steer clear of any punch he throws. She might fracture a wrist pounding on Bruce for too long, though. Dude looks built like a tank...

But if they were allowed their tools, Batman would beat all of them.

Dick's not quite the clear top even after Cass and Bruce, but he should at least be able to hold his own and win most fights unless your name is Jason. _Then_ things even out a bit.




> Also, never underestimate his ability to shit talk his foes into losing a bit of focus.


Now that you've mentioned it, I'm reminded of the similarities between Spidey and Nightwing, but Spidey's treated with a lot more respect by the writers. Dick just gets jobbed.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So in terms of Dick. How should Dick be written? In terms of fighters where is he? Should he be able to beat Damian? How great should his fighting be?


Damian's never been able to beat Dick. 
Cass is at the top, after that, Dick and Bruce, however, after them, the power level fluctuates. Sometimes Damian can beat Jason and Tim, though more often he can't. Sometimes Babs is equal to Jason and Dick, sometimes they aren't. 
Steph is consistently at the lower rung though, especially since she's even newer since New 52.  

The fun part about Dick is because most of his story is canon, I can attribute a lot of his wins and loses to his development
For example, Post Crisis Dick in the 90s have no chance against Bruce, Shiva and was beaten by Azrael
However, Post New 52 Dick can beat Bruce, go toe to toe with Shiva for a while, defeated David Cain, and fight on equal footing with Azrael. 
So if I draw a straight timeline I can say that he did develop, but of course, there's also the usual inconsistencies. Him, and all the other characters.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m curious with his fighting skills be better than most of the batfam. This is a big issue sometimes they write him has one of the high tier other times it’s like what is going on. Howeve, with his acrobatic skills that should always be able to help him get the upper hand. 


In terms of his best stories what are they?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I’m curious with his fighting skills be better than most of the batfam. This is a big issue sometimes they write him has one of the high tier other times it’s like what is going on. Howeve, with his acrobatic skills that should always be able to help him get the upper hand. 
> 
> 
> In terms of his best stories what are they?


A lot of those would be in the New Teen Titans era, along with being Batman and Damian his Robin (barring certain other things from that time period).

----------


## Ascended

I tend to rank Dick somewhere in the top 10 fighters of the DCU, but on the lower end of that spectrum. Shiva and Cass and Dragon (when he exists) are the top 3, Dinah's on the list somewhere too, and I generally rank her only a little below the likes of Shiva and Cass. If we include superhumans then Wonder Woman is right up there too, and we can't discount Slade either. I don't think Bruce is in the top 10 at all; he's good, but not *that* good, and his victories usually come from gadgets and planning more than sheer combat prowess.

Dick's spent most of his life fighting criminals, most of that time dealing with superhuman threats, and even before being Robin was performing aerial stunts most people couldn't dream of, and is generally regarded as the best natural athlete in DC. He doesn't rely on gadgets nearly as much as Bruce does. 

Granted, the last few years the comics haven't really reflected this level of skill. But given the pile of sh*t the last several years have been I'm willing to write off nearly everything as out of continuity due to DC's stupidity. The way Dick has been handled by the company shouldn't *count* when figuring out who Dick is or what he's capable of.

But it really pisses me off when this guy, who's been in the game longer than most Leaguers and is among the most experienced heroes on earth, gets treated like a idiot sidekick still figuring himself out.

----------


## Godlike13

Martial arts skills have become dumb and lazy. Im not sure when being good at karate chops became a superpower, but thats pretty much what it is with characters like Cass and Shiva. It defeats the entire purpose of human superheroes, who are suppose to being able to do what they do through work, thought, and determination. If they are not physically stronger then an opponents does that mean they give up, no. Same should go with karate skills. If someone is better at karate, just don't take them on in a one on one karate fight. Martial arts prowess is is so overrated when it comes to fighting ability in superhero situations its silly. Shiva especially is the most overate villain in all of DC. Deathstroke is scary cause he's superhuman not just physically but mentally, and not too mention usually armed from top to bottom. I hate when Bat characters beat him in strait hand to hand fights. They shouldn't be able to, that should be an incredibly hard thing to do for any Bat character. And when they do, it should be a big deal done through a culmination of impressive means. With Shiva just hit her with a stun gun. 

Dick should be on higher end of the spectrum when it comes to human fighters not because of kung fu skills but because of his vast years of training, history, and experience. He should be good at what he's doing by now, otherwise how has he survived as long as he has. Never the less because DC offers him zero character protection he is the go to for lazy writers to use as a quick way to try and show off so and so who don't have the years of history and work showing what they are capable of. He is DC's most comfortable baseline benchmark.

----------


## Aahz

> Damian's never been able to beat Dick.


Did the ever fight?




> Sometimes Damian can beat Jason and Tim, though more often he can't.


 That imo more a proof for the shitty treatment of Tim and Jason in Batfamily-Events then for Damians fighting skills.

----------


## Robanker

> I tend to rank Dick somewhere in the top 10 fighters of the DCU, but on the lower end of that spectrum. Shiva and Cass and Dragon (when he exists) are the top 3, *Dinah's on the list somewhere too, and I generally rank her only a little below the likes of Shiva and Cass.* If we include superhumans then Wonder Woman is right up there too, and we can't discount Slade either. I don't think Bruce is in the top 10 at all; he's good, but not *that* good, and his victories usually come from gadgets and planning more than sheer combat prowess.
> 
> Dick's spent most of his life fighting criminals, most of that time dealing with superhuman threats, and even before being Robin was performing aerial stunts most people couldn't dream of, and is generally regarded as the best natural athlete in DC. He doesn't rely on gadgets nearly as much as Bruce does. 
> 
> Granted, the last few years the comics haven't really reflected this level of skill. But given the pile of sh*t the last several years have been I'm willing to write off nearly everything as out of continuity due to DC's stupidity. The way Dick has been handled by the company shouldn't *count* when figuring out who Dick is or what he's capable of.
> 
> But it really pisses me off when this guy, who's been in the game longer than most Leaguers and is among the most experienced heroes on earth, gets treated like a idiot sidekick still figuring himself out.


Thank you. Someone with some SENSE around here.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## xiyon

Just saw the Black Canary vs Sindel Death Battle when the video slipped into my YouTube recommendations feed. I'm amending my earlier statement--- Dinah would wipe the floor with Dick in straight hand-to-hand, Canary Cry or no Canary Cry.

(Also, it's frightening how YouTube knew to recommend it when I wasn't even searching for Black Canary / Birds of Prey on the platform / Google...)

----------


## AmiMizuno

So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder with how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂt spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity

----------


## Ascended

> Thank you. Someone with some SENSE around here.


>bro-fist!<




> Just saw the Black Canary vs Sindel Death Battle when the video slipped into my YouTube recommendations feed. I'm amending my earlier statement--- Dinah would wipe the floor with Dick in straight hand-to-hand, Canary Cry or no Canary Cry.


I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.




> So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder with how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂ’t spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity


How do you mean? Like Dick's relationship dynamic with Clark? I'd say their bond is probably more like "cool uncle/favorite nephew" than anything. I think Seely captured it really well back at the start of Rebirth.

And no, I don't think Dick ever interacted with Diana much. He had team ups with Superman, but none with Diana that I know of. He did work with her as part of "Batman and...." but that was it.

I'd like to think that he was very intimidated by her back in the day. Imagine being this very young teen in pixie shorts, full of adolescent hormones and confusion, and the most beautiful, powerful woman in the world is sitting at the same table. 

And I like to think Dick never quite outgrew that, and Diana still makes him tongue tied and he blushes just looking at her.

----------


## xiyon

> I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.


Maybe the first few fights will be even, but as each fight progresses, Dinah will be able to counter him more.

When I made my first statement, it was just under the assumption that Dinah was trained by Wildcat to search for weaknesses, and Dinah knows a lot of fighting styles. Big whoop--- so can pretty much every named hand-to-hand combatant in the DC universe. But the Death Battle video showed Dinah's more than that. She learns and adapts _fast_, to the point of beating even Wonder Woman in a spar, and out-thinking/processing a Green Lantern Power Ring. Now _that's_ impressive.

Unfortunately, Dick hasn't had, as far as I know, a remotely similar feat, so, yeah-- Dinah would wipe the floor with him. Dinah vs Cass would be a fairer fight, imho.

I'm still going with Dick being the bastard fighter giving him an edge in a no holds barred fight, though. Hiding in the shadows, hitting you from behind, going for the sucker punch, and even cracking _yo momma_ taunts mid-fight.

----------


## Godlike13

Pfft Dick beat Wonder Woman when he was a kid  :Cool: . Seriously though 80 year’s old, Dick has “feats” for days.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How would he beat her? Your talking about a wonder who doesn't need her super-strength. Not only that but she is one of the best fighters. Also, she could have been holding back. Diana also had impress feet. But yea, I'm talking about the relationship with Diana and DIck. We don't get to see how their dynamic is.  But anyway I hope Dc brought back the fact Dick got the name Nightwing from Clarke.

----------


## WonderNight

Man thank goodness I don't care about feats in comics, there so inconsistent. I just want characters to be in there proper tier, who beats who I don't care.

But hell yeah I want more dick with clark and diana. Dick and Clark on big uncle little nephew adventures I'm there.

Dick having a huge crush on diana is to funny to past up. The irony. Dick with most females is this charming and charismatic young man but dick around diana is more shy a d bumbling. Sounds fun.

----------


## Aahz

> Unfortunately, Dick hasn't had, as far as I know, a remotely similar feat, so, yeah-- Dinah would wipe the floor with him. Dinah vs Cass would be a fairer fight, imho.


Feats are often nor really a good metric, especially if it is just one feat, since the best (and worst) feats of a character are often PIS.

----------


## xiyon

> Man thank goodness I don't care about feats in comics, there so inconsistent. I just want characters to be in there proper tier, who beats who I don't care.
> 
> But hell yeah I want more dick with clark and diana. Dick and Clark on big uncle little nephew adventures I'm there.
> 
> Dick having a huge crush on diana is to funny to past up. The irony. Dick with most females is this charming and charismatic young man but dick around diana is more shy a d bumbling. Sounds fun.


This talk of Dick hanging out with the other two in the Trinity makes me think. 

Would a Trinity book with Nightwing, Donna Troy, and...er, Power Girl (she's the one in their generation, right?) sell? Who would they even fight?

----------


## Robanker

> This talk of Dick hanging out with the other two in the Trinity makes me think. 
> 
> Would a Trinity book with Nightwing, Donna Troy, and...er, Power Girl (she's the one in their generation, right?) sell? Who would they even fight?


Editorial, hopefully.

----------


## Digifiend

> >bro-fist!<
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno if I'd say "wipe the floor with..." but yeah, I see her winning at least half her matches against Dick. When written right that woman is fierce as f*ck.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you mean? Like Dick's relationship dynamic with Clark? I'd say their bond is probably more like "cool uncle/favorite nephew" than anything. I think Seely captured it really well back at the start of Rebirth.
> ...


I don't think he'd feel that way about Diana nowadays. She just looks like an older Donna, remember (this is due to Donna's real life origins, as a teenage Diana who was accidentally mistaken for a sidekick when the first Teen Titans story was being written, and later retconned as being a new character). Diana and Donna look so alike that Donna's been mistaken for Wonder Woman.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Did they ever fight?


Training and when he's being petulant




> So overall Dick is top 10. However, I do wonder how Dick is with Supes. How should he be with Diana? I mean they donÂt spend time often. I mean in a sense he is part of the time trinity


The few times I saw Dick interact with Justice League gen who are not Clark, he's casual professional. He's been around the adult heroes since he was a kid and knows their sidekicks, so the ones he doesn't interact personally he knows from his friends.  

As a kid, he respects and admires them, but as a teen and leader of independent young heroes who know them, he started to see their cracks. So as an adult, he's not afraid to interact, or when it comes to it, suggest, take the lead, or call them out. 

He doesn't get flustered by Diana as an adult. The only version of Dick I know that has a fantasy about Diana is the one where he never knew Donna and rarely interact with the Justice League in the first place (Grayson #11 I think).

----------


## nhienphan2808

And the only Robin that gets flustered in front of her Pre-Flashpoint was Jason.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean should Dick be written has a better fighter than the Batfam or stay where he is? I mean he was trained by Batman and he is well known for his acrobat skills.

----------


## Godlike13

Probably, or they will need to find a different resident jobber.

----------


## Digifiend

Issue 69 preview:
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...ng-69-preview/

*spoilers:*
Joker finds out about the four fake Nightwings from the news, meanwhile Grayson is in Switzerland, wearing a new costume. Captions show a conversation he's had with Bea - he has his memories back but can't tell them from the fakes - is he Ric Grayson, Talon, or Dick Grayson, Nightwing? He intends to find out!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

WTF is he wearing?

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> WTF is he wearing?


Bucky 2.0

10char

----------


## Badou

I was about to say the same thing. He looks like Bucky. 

But man, when you don't think the concept could get any more stupid they find a way to top themselves. Again, none of this really makes sense and speaks to how lazy the creators are. So Dick has two sets of memories now. The fake Talon ones and his real ones, but doesn't the fact that they have the cop Nightwings running around in his old Nightwing costumes kind of make it obvious which ones are real? Or the fact that there is probably loads of third party information about Nightwing in Bludhaven from the past year or so from the news or random citizens also make it obvious which ones are real? 

Oh and lets not forget that he is torn between memories from the Owls that are an obvious evil organization that even Ric himself has witnessed them trying to kill innocent people and fighting the fake Nightwings, or of memories of him as a hero helping people. Is it really that difficult to figure out which ones are fake when those are your two choices?

----------


## Godlike13

Right, I was thinking the exact same thing with the preview. Is it not painfully obvious.

----------


## Blue22

Yeah I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. It shoulda been a wrap the moment he got his actual memories back. He knows who he used to be. Now he decides who he wants to be. There shouldn't be any confusion or any identity crisis. The Talon memories shouldn't even be a factor at this point.

----------


## Godlike13

Both memories are proving to be irrelevant anyway.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah I'm not really sure what the point of all this is. It shoulda been a wrap the moment he got his actual memories back. He knows who he used to be. Now he decides who he wants to be. There shouldn't be any confusion or any identity crisis. The Talon memories shouldn't even be a factor at this point.


When bea didn’t die I knew something was up

----------


## Digifiend

Knowing Joker, I think she still will. And so will the four fake Nightwings.

----------


## AmiMizuno

They been retconning a lot of characters origins or certain parts. Let’s hope this will be one of them for Dick

----------


## dropkickjake

They were like, hey... you thought we couldnt do worse than the n52 original robin suit? Hold. My. Beer.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Honestly they could easily end this with having Diana come in using the Lasso of truth to have Roc know his truth memories but they want to continue this terrible story

----------


## Digifiend

Doesn't Bruce own his own? Used it in The Return of Bruce Wayne 10 years ago, and that probably never stopped being canon because Dick's Batman tenure stayed in continuity.

----------


## Godlike13

Miss Martian and Raven could probably sort Ric out in like a second, but whatever. That’s a why doesn’t Batman just call Superman situation. So I’ll give them a break there.

 But Ric not knowing what memories are real at this point is just moronic. If it’s not blatantly obvious to him, which it logically should be, he can just turn on the news or google it. What’s more they have him asking a question that doesn’t even matter, cause he’s neither Ric the Talon or Dick Grayson. He’s Ric the homeless nothing. Neither memories actually matter or effect his current character anyway. 

Quite frankly too much of Ric relies on its creators thinking their readers are either too stupid or just aren’t going to care about these kinds of things. It’s just textbook bad writing bred from laziness and not actually giving a crap.

----------


## Digifiend

Why didn't Megan and Raven try it anyway? They would've known what had happened, as Nightwing was on the Titans with them until he got shot.

----------


## Badou

The "in comics excuse" was that Dick, or I guess Ric, didn't want his memories back and didn't want anything to do with what his old life was, even though he ran off to Bludhaven immediately where he has zero connection to outside of being Nightwing there. So the whole set up falls apart right at the start. Apparently everyone in the DCU was fine with his decision for whatever reason. Which of course makes zero sense on multiple levels, but nothing about this story made any sense. Letting a person who just suffered a traumatic brain injury and lost their entire set of adolescent and adulthood memories make decisions for themselves that resulted in them abandoning everyone that knows them to live as a hobo in random strangers' houses and steal their food is completely stupid.

----------


## king81992

> Why didn't Megan and Raven try it anyway? They would've known what had happened, as Nightwing was on the Titans with them until he got shot.


Ms. Martian said that fixing Ric was too risky and Raven had lost her connection to her soul self and couldn't do much of anything.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Doesn't Bruce own his own? Used it in The Return of Bruce Wayne 10 years ago, and that probably never stopped being canon because Dick's Batman tenure stayed in continuity.


They only keep the broad strokes. The details vary on each writer.

---

I keep looking at Robin Year One and keep not buying it because I haven't decided how much realism I want in comics

The one scene I remember that people once posted was when Two-Face forced Dick to make a choice that resulted in someone's death, followed by a beat-up, followed by Gordon chewing Batman for it, followed by firing, followed by Alfred chewing Batman for it, and of course, the whole story ends with Gordon agreeing about Robin...

...and I can't help but feel all those either don't make sense, or everyone making bad decisions because the comic brings up the reality of death and trauma in a story about a kid wanting to be a superhero, all the while trying to justify the brand. All of this makes me confused about how much is too much realism in comics, or at least, in what I want.

It's like shooting Nightwing. By all rights, he should be wearing a bulletproof cowl from now on, now that they bring it up, but we know they won't.

or how writers invest in years of Batman perfecting his war on crime by giving him various tech to cover his weakness as human but won't do the same for the kids.

----------


## xiyon

> Miss Martian and Raven could probably sort Ric out in like a second, but whatever. Thats a why doesnt Batman just call Superman situation. So Ill give them a break there.
> 
>  But Ric not knowing what memories are real at this point is just moronic. If its not blatantly obvious to him, which it logically should be, he can just turn on the news or google it. Whats more they have him asking a question that doesnt even matter, cause hes neither Ric the Talon or Dick Grayson. Hes Ric the homeless nothing. Neither memories actually matter or effect his current character anyway. 
> 
> Quite frankly too much of Ric relies on its creators thinking their readers are either too stupid or just arent going to care about these kinds of things. Its just textbook bad writing bred from laziness and not actually giving a crap.


Creatively bankrupt, the current writing is. It's just strip-mining as much drama as it can from a silly and poorly-received plot.

But I don't know. I'm torn between seeing a poor Nightwing run, or no Nightwing run at all. The former has the hope that maybe, _maybe_ a writer interested in Nightwing will come along, while the latter, if extended too long, might mean Nightwing won't ever have a book again.

----------


## Ascended

> Creatively bankrupt, the current writing is. It's just strip-mining as much drama as it can from a silly and poorly-received plot.
> 
> But I don't know. I'm torn between seeing a poor Nightwing run, or no Nightwing run at all. The former has the hope that maybe, _maybe_ a writer interested in Nightwing will come along, while the latter, if extended too long, might mean Nightwing won't ever have a book again.


Dick's too popular to be in limbo for too long. I mean, things could spiral even further out of control than they are, and things could get real bad. Anything's possible. And that could be a serious detriment to the character. But unless the world goes totally bonkers, he's relatively safe from long-term limbo. He's the first Robin; that alone ensures he's somewhere in continuity. He's too well entrenched as the first Robin for someone else to take that position in a reboot (no one will accept Tim as the first, for example). And the fact that there are other popular Robins that DC makes money from help ensure that Dick gets aged up to Nightwing; you can't have Damian and Jason without him. And he does well in larger media, which helps provide *some* pressure to use him. 

DC can't get rid of him because he's too big a player, has too much history central to the Bat mythos, and is too popular, so they've chosen the next best thing; treating him so badly his fans abandon him. We *should* abandon the book until the quality rises, otherwise DC will never give us anything better. But we can support Dick without rewarding DC for this kind of crap, and we *should* do that.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> Dick's too popular to be in limbo for too long. I mean, things could spiral even further out of control than they are, and things could get real bad. Anything's possible. And that could be a serious detriment to the character. But unless the world goes totally bonkers, he's relatively safe from long-term limbo. He's the first Robin; that alone ensures he's somewhere in continuity. He's too well entrenched as the first Robin for someone else to take that position in a reboot (no one will accept Tim as the first, for example). And the fact that there are other popular Robins that DC makes money from help ensure that Dick gets aged up to Nightwing; you can't have Damian and Jason without him. And he does well in larger media, which helps provide *some* pressure to use him. 
> 
> DC can't get rid of him because he's too big a player, has too much history central to the Bat mythos, and is too popular, so they've chosen the next best thing; treating him so badly his fans abandon him. We *should* abandon the book until the quality rises, otherwise DC will never give us anything better. But we can support Dick without rewarding DC for this kind of crap, and we *should* do that.


I think the way to handle that isn't to abandon Dick, but to abandon DC.

----------


## Digifiend

> Ms. Martian said that fixing Ric was too risky and Raven had lost her connection to her soul self and couldn't do much of anything.


Raven got fixed when Titans was cancelled. So that excuse doesn't hold after that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?

----------


## Pohzee

> Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?


Better Than Batman and Nightwing: Year One are his only _good_ ones. Freefall and The Great Leap are enjoyable. That’s about it.

----------


## Godlike13

Seeley’s run on the title was solid. So it’s not that the book was bad before Ric, but it was in creator hell after Seeley wanted out. As soon as they found someone to write the book for more then an arc they did Ric and ran him off. The likelihood we will get even decent stories after Ric is probably slim. Cause while Ric might end, his book being a refuge for boring complacent creators like Jurgans will probably continue.

----------


## cc008

> Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?


_Grayson_ is so much fun to read through again. So enjoyable.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Better Than Batman and Nightwing: Year One are his only _good_ ones. Freefall and The Great Leap are enjoyable. That’s about it.


Was gonna argue with you, but well... I honestly just disagree with your use of "good."

I'd say that Better Than Batman is great. I never really thought Nightwing Year One was anything to write home about. I'd put a slew of TPBs into the "good" category, including nearly all of Seeley's run, Traps and Trapeezes (which gets a bad rap because n52 took so much away from Dick), Freefall and Great Leap (as you've said), The Untouchable (again, underrated because of what it follows, in this case Seeley's run). 

Under that you've got your "pretty good," with most of Dixon's run, most of Higgins' run, and the bleeding edge stuff. Then you've the dross like tentacle Jason. 


It is clear though, that most of Dick's _great_ stories were told with him not as a solo Nightwing. Dark Mirror, Batman & Robin, and Grayson all shine out above his Nightwing stuff. Even Robin Year One, IMO, is better than most of his solo title stuff.

----------


## Pohzee

Yeah, I feel like there’s a difference between a good when it comes to comics and most media. The fact that there is a comic that gets a 9.0 average on comic book roundup tells you all you need to know about the standards of the medium.

All of the stories you listed are enjoyable, but nothing to write home about. If you aren’t a fan of the character, they aren’t worth reading. Which is my criteria of good.

It does give a slight bias towards beginner friendly stories like Year One, but that truly is more memorable than anything else.

And I strongly agree that most of his best stuff is when he isn’t Nightwing. Those are all great stories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide. 

Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?

----------


## cc008

> So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide.


Why not Dick as a spy and then doubling as Nightwing working the same cases. Similar to how Daredevil works the same cases Matt Murdock does.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Diana is literal a call away. So they are really only using it for plot reasons. They really don’t want to cut this storyline short. When Ric ends. Will we even get a good Nightwing story. Before Ric did he have good stories?


It's rare that I like a story and issue completely so most of this will be a list of moments

The... I forget which... Titans issue where Superman drops in to supervise the Titans and Nightwing had to explain that they need to be independent.
The Geoff Johns Teen Titans issue (#6) where he calls out the League and Titans for fighting like kids.
New 52 Nightwing #18-19 about rejecting his Talon heritage as he's not bound by destiny.
I think he did the same thing to Raptor about heritage in Better Than Batman so that too.
New 52 Batman and Robin, where Damian demand fighting all the previous Robin and take their weapons to prove himself but Nightwing just hands over his stick saying he's already Robin.
Any time where he or the story declares that he's not defined by tragedy.
Any moments where he acts the big brother, natural leader, or voice of reason.
The Aftermath of Nightwing and Robin Must Die where he talks with Damian about missing each other.
The one-shot where he goes all KillBill (without the killing) on the yakuza who kidnapped Damian.




> So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide. 
> 
> Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?


If the choice is between Nightwing and spy I'm gonna still say Nightwing since his spy identity is a generic number and his own name. Other than that, I want a new identity since, even if Nightwing was initially created to be different than Batfam, he ended up being folded to the Batfam anyway, and casual people will think that Nightwing is between Robin and Batman. 
That said, as long as that's how DC views him and his brand, it doesn't matter what identity he takes. 

So I guess I'm gonna take secret agent after all since it's a stand out the position within the fam and DCU, as the only other secret agents are characters like Julia Pennyworth, supporting characters people often forget, or Max Lord, a villain.

Anything can be make work if they want.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Sadly with how DC treats him, it wouldn't matter. They can might Nightwing work if they don't make him that much involved in the Batfam. He should be called if it's serious not every time. That he has his own rogues gallery  I mean who are his top rogues? Are there any rogues you would like to see created?

----------


## bearman

Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yeah, I feel like there’s a difference between a good when it comes to comics and most media. The fact that there is a comic that gets a 9.0 average on comic book roundup tells you all you need to know about the standards of the medium.
> 
> All of the stories you listed are enjoyable, but nothing to write home about. If you aren’t a fan of the character, they aren’t worth reading. Which is my criteria of good.
> 
> It does give a slight bias towards beginner friendly stories like Year One, but that truly is more memorable than anything else.
> 
> And I strongly agree that most of his best stuff is when he isn’t Nightwing. Those are all great stories.


I think its important to judge a story/medium by what its trying to do. I consider a comic good when it does what superhero comics should do, which is just that: be enjoyable. Great, to me, is when something stands out above the rest and becomes a must read. The same is true in movies and TV shows. Superstore is good, not great. Parks and Rec is great. 




> So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide.


por que no los dos? Nightwing can be problematic sometimes though, because his stories need to _feel_ different than Batman/Bruce stories. Thats something that not to many people have managed. I think Morrison handled that best with Dick's batman taking on a weird silverage tone.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.


Independent here doesn't mean he stops contacting them but how DC treats him. Stop interrupting or canceling his story to serve Batman's story. Stop considering him only as a supporting cast to Batman. Not just sidekick but every member of the Batfam who headline their own book because they're already a main character of their own story. Crossovers are fine as long as they keep that in mind.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean if figure what makes Dick different from Batman. So his city Bludhaven yea would be corrupted but maybe not always in the same way as Gotham.




> Most fans want Nightwing independent of Batman. I agree... but I really want Dick and Bruce to stay close. Their radio interaction during the early Grayson stories seemed touching, and true. There’s no reason they can’t meet regularly for dinner, or coffee, and get a little advice from each other, but stay independent crime fighters. They are brothers, and should act that way.



This is true but I mean how often they at  times how Bruce in his stories. Or how often he appears in there. I have no issue. I rather have him be able to handle himself and when he and Bruce or the other Batfam get together it's almost to hangout or have dinner. It shouldn't always be to lessen Nightwing. I'm just saying when Nightwing is in Batman's story it should mean things are very serious. That they need everyone.

----------


## Ascended

> It is clear though, that most of Dick's _great_ stories were told with him not as a solo Nightwing. Dark Mirror, Batman & Robin, and Grayson all shine out above his Nightwing stuff. Even Robin Year One, IMO, is better than most of his solo title stuff.


And a lot of his best stuff is one-and-done issues too, that don't stick in the memory as easily as a big crazy six issue arc. The issue Seeley did with Superman showing up, Rebirth 9 or something, was a damn solid issue. Percy's three issue "motorcycle death race" was also really damn good. But that's only three issues, not a whole trade. 

And of course, Dick's had great moments in other books like Titans, Robin (I used to love his guest appearances in Tim's book), etc., as well as Batman's books. 

I think Nightwing has better moments in larger media than he typically has in comics too. It's rare that Nightwing *doesnt* steal every scene he's in on Young Justice, for example.

----------


## nhienphan2808

The problem isn’t Nightwing. The problem is the entire Nightwing solo was written by Chuck Dixon, a guy who wanted to forget all his connections and friends outside the batfam, and Devin Grayson who drove him into the ground, and Tomasi who came to it just before Batman died and Dick has to step in as Batman for his father and family. There’s nothing stopping Nightwing from being a great mantle aside from very glaring ugly agendas that DC had for it. Good stories with him as Robin or Batman could have been told the same as Nightwing, maybe aside from Black Mirror.

----------


## WonderNight

> So should he be a spy or Nightwing? There seems to be a slight divide. 
> 
> Also if Nightwing were to ever have an animated movie about him or ******action movie would it ever work?


in my mind dick should be a spy but as nightwing. 

That should be his niche his corner that he can build and grow in. I believe nightwing needs to leave the city hero thing behind him (it makes him to similar to batman) and become a traveling hero. Young justice outsiders did nightwing right, he's still nightwing the superhero but his missions are globetrotting superhero spy missions.

Dick as nightwing should be DC's lead superhero spy. His solo should nightwing globetrotting around the dcu with regular team ups with others heroes.

Nightwing could make his own strike team with his supporting cast, a new spyral made to stop meta human trafficking ect. But dick as nightwing should be the spy.

Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.


Damn straight. 

If I were a billionaire I'd pay DC a ton of money to pay Greg Weisman a ton of money to write Dick's solo.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean I wouldn't mind if he had his own City. I mean the majority of heroes have their own Cities to protected. Now in a way, there is a way for him to have his own city and be a global hero. In terms of a job he could be a PI. Who handles unusual cases. Around the world. You never know where this will take you. I mean what if Bludhaven doesn't have that much crime in it. Rather they send it elsewhere. To make Bludhaven more marketable. Sure there are gangs and mob bosses. But things like HUman tracking and other things are hidden and send off overseas.

That way the city isn't Gotham more like Metropolis. Nice clear city on the outside. On the inside, it can be dangerous.

----------


## WonderNight

I get you but one of the main problems with dick having a city is that unlike other heros nightwing has to not be too similar to another character, a character that has the biggest most famous city in all of comics.

Dick has to got to a point where people don't feel like if there's batman that what's the point of nightwing. That one of dick's biggest problems nightwing is to similar to batman.

Nightwing can't just be Jr batman and expect dc to care about him. Have nightwing be global and social is a key way of having them be not so similar.

----------


## legion_quest

And with a shiny new MacGuffin introduced, the end of Ric is in sight.

Just Joker War to get through...farewell 4 Nightwings, there are some crowbars with your names on them

----------


## AmiMizuno

If he needs to travel he would have to get money to do that somehow. So what if he went back as a acrobat ? Or a private detective? A way to write Bludhaven is that maybe it’s a safe city crime doesn’t happen here. That the gang lords don’t want crime to happen here so it’s outsourced

----------


## dropkickjake

> And a lot of his best stuff is one-and-done issues too, that don't stick in the memory as easily as a big crazy six issue arc.


There was a single issue of Nightwing by the guys who finished Grayson that I'd add to your list. It was very pulp martial arts movie in tone, and narrated by Damian. I wanna say Roy was in it. Stellar issue. I know its not officially Nightwing, but speaking of great single issues, The Gun Goes Off is still probably my favorite single comic issue of all time. 




> The problem isnt Nightwing.


To clarify, I'm with you on this one hundred percent. Correlation doesn't equal causation. There is a correlation though. Nightwing books tend to peak at "pretty good!" while Dick in other costumes or situations peak at "Holy cow this is amazing." I think it has more to do on how much freedom the creator has to do what they want. Seeley's work with Nightwing as Batman's global strike force of one is absolutely killer. His stuff with Dick in Bludhaven is... well, less killer. That's not a problem with Bludhaven persay, its a problem with Seeley being told that he HAD to write stories in bludhaven whether he wanted to or not.




> in my mind dick should be a spy but as nightwing. 
> 
> ....
> 
> Just copy young justice outsiders nightwing.


Yes aaaaand yes! I don't think that him not having a city is important persay. I think that Bludhaven as originally written by Dixon is a big problem. If you start the description as "Like Gotham but..." you've steered the ship wrong.

----------


## Godlike13

Yet another awful creatively lazy issue. 20 pages of repeating itself and telling reading stuff they already know. Continuing to move things along at a ridiculous snails pace just to introduce a potential magic hand wave cause and fix device.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yet another awful creatively lazy issue. 20 pages of repeating itself and telling reading stuff they already know. Continuing to move things along at a ridiculous snails pace just to introduce a potential magic hand wave fix device.


It did have the original robin cosume though!

----------


## Zaresh

Eh, I can't say I liked it a lot. It was... uh, not good, but not awful either. It read kind of like some adventure book from the 40's aimed for kids. But I guess we get Dick back in May thanks to this out-of-nowhere new item that solves the problem.

When we did have better ways of solving the problem, ways we actually knew about before.

Art was nice, even if a little bit stiff for my tastes. That's a more positive trait of the issue.

----------


## K. Jones

It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.

Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.

----------


## astro@work

> It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.
> 
> Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.


I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson.  :Mad:

----------


## Zaresh

Iirc, 4g and 3g are going to have minis and limited series. I'm sure Dick is going to get more than a few as soon as some writer presents some interesting enough pitch. And at this point? I read more of those than actual regular series.

----------


## Badou

What a garbage issue. Just so much recap and barely any plot movement like always. I really don't understand how this series gets any praise from people, but I don't want to get banned again so I won't go further into that. The decisions Jurgens made with the dumb magic crystal or having Dick travel all the way to Europe when he could have just gone to Gotham and spoken to Batman when it is extremely obvious what memories are real anyway to help sort all this out is so poorly planned out. It sucks because Jurgens is going to probably stay on the title for a long time too.




> Iirc, 4g and 3g are going to have minis and limited series. I'm sure Dick is going to get more than a few as soon as some writer presents some interesting enough pitch. And at this point? I read more of those than actual regular series.


There has been no confirmation on that rumor. All we know is that there will be one shots for the different Generations before 5G starts.

----------


## Zaresh

> There has been no confirmation on that rumor. All we know is that there will be one shots for the different Generations before 5G starts.


Oh, it's not confirmed? But I think I recall reading the announcement for some minis already? Black Label minis, which is pretty fitting, because I'm sure most fans of Dick and the other titans gen characters are more or less around my age or older. Maybe I read about some speculation and my mind decided it was an actual fact :/.

----------


## Rac7d*

They really are stretching this out, he won’t go to batman becuase it would be to danm easy huh

----------


## Badou

> Oh, it's not confirmed? But I think I recall reading the announcement for some minis already? Black Label minis, which is pretty fitting, because I'm sure most fans of Dick and the other titans gen characters are more or less around my age or older. Maybe I read about some speculation and my mind decided it was an actual fact :/.


I'm pretty sure. I think in the last group of solicits they are going to start releasing a one shot per month until 5G starting with Generation One attempting to explain their new universe outline. Which the first one is about Wonder Woman and the JSA and some secret history with Lucius Fox.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm pretty sure. I think in the last group of solicits they are going to start releasing a one shot per month until 5G starting with Generation One attempting to explain their new universe outline. Which the first one is about Wonder Woman and the JSA and some secret history with Lucius Fox.


Darn, grrr. I was happier 15 minutes ago! ù__ú
Oh well, I guess I still can hope for it to happen, or something.

----------


## Digifiend

> I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson.


The book will just not exist if Dick isn't Nightwing. They didn't make Tim the new Nightwing when Dick became Batman and Damian became Robin, they made him Red Robin and ended the Nightwing title.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It constantly feels like this whole thing is getting dragged out so it can interact with whatever "the next big crossover story" is.
> 
> Dick Grayson, even amnesiac, scaling a Swiss castle full of a secret society of European Owls and Talons could have had like an ultra, ultra Nick Fury or spy James Bond vibe. Instead it just feels slapdash. But I liked Joker's "eenie, meenie, Nightwingy, no" rhyme. That was cute.


Doesn’t the fact he has to do this and find his doctor in the later prove his owl
Memories are false?

----------


## Ascended

> Darn, grrr. I was happier 15 minutes ago! ù__ú
> Oh well, I guess I still can hope for it to happen, or something.


Yeah, the Black Label mini thing is just a rumor out of Bleeding Cool. Right now, the only things we know for a fact about 5G is the stuff from Wonder Woman 750, Flash 750 (has that shipped yet? It's supposed to be our next peek, anyway), and the 5 one-shots. Oh, there's supposed to be something in the free comic book day stuff too, I think. Everything else is unconfirmed at this point.

But I join you in hoping we get some good Nightwing in there somewhere. 




> Doesnt the fact he has to do this and find his doctor in the later prove his owl
> Memories are false?


Shhh! DC has convinced itself this is a fantastic story that's just too smart for fans. If you bring any kind of logic into things you'll damage their confidence!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AmiMizuno

If you guys can retcon  anything in Nightwing's current timeline what would you retcon?

----------


## Godlike13

Ric obviously.

----------


## Blue22

> Ric obviously.




I'd probably also take out the time he bent to Batman's will and disbanded the Titans. That was not a good look for him. And was him freaking out at Starfire's "In name only" political marriage canon again with the rest of the NTT stuff? Cuz I'd retcon that foolishness out too.

----------


## Godlike13

I would say Abnett’s Titans, but it’s was such a did nothing waste of time there is no need. It was hard to read through for Nightwing, cause the characterization was so bad, but it didn’t actually do or accomplish anything one way or another. One can just naturally forget it or treat it as it never happen. No retcon necessary.

----------


## Robanker

> I feel like this whole insufferable Ric thing will be dragged on (and finally get resolved) just in time for DC to convert to 5G...meaning he'll be restored as Dick/Nightwing and immediately get aged up and out of his usefulness. And therefore we STILL won't get to see Dick back in his glory. A newcomer will take over the book and bye bye Dick Grayson.


Expect Damian to take over as Nightwing. I genuinely don't think DC will respect Dick enough to let him have anything anymore.

----------


## Godlike13

Expect Damian to take a sudo-antagonist role counter to the new Batman. They aren’t going to want any threats to their new Batman’s legitimacy, and passing over Bruce’s blood son is too much potential drama for them to ignore.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, to have Luke be Batman they have to write out Damian. So either they will have Damian be missing or turn him into some kind of villain/antagonist where he obviously can't be Batman. Those two feel the most likely. Which I guess the end of Doomsday Clock set up with that little text box saying something about Superman needing Bruce's daughter to help save Damian. That was left open enough to mean whatever they want it to be. Saving Damian from himself or from some actual threat. 

Dick will have to be written out for 5G for Luke too. They need a reason why he won't be Batman if Bruce isn't Batman. My guess is that Dick might be retired and just stuck in Bludhaven. Jurgens is already doing that storyline about Dick being mayor of Bludhaven in his Batman Beyond run. That would be such an easy thing to bring over from that series. Maybe it would be too obvious. They also might just kill Dick off and write him out that way leaving the Nightwing identity open. If you kind of look at 5G as some Elseworlds-type of thing Dick being killed off is pretty common, lol. I just can't imagine that if Dick is going to be in his 40s or 50s that he would just be running around as Nightwing if someone like Luke is Batman.

----------


## RLV_1996

Ugh, just when I thought things have become more or less stable and get back into comics - this happens. 

They can’t keep treating Dick or any other major character like this without giving them a break. It’s hard to read about constant misery, suffering and tension of the characters you like.

And Dick sure earned his place in DC at this point. I hope his possible sidelining is not solely because of Luke, because that doesn’t look great for me..

----------


## Digifiend

> I'd probably also take out the time he bent to Batman's will and disbanded the Titans. That was not a good look for him. And was him freaking out at Starfire's "In name only" political marriage canon again with the rest of the NTT stuff? Cuz I'd retcon that foolishness out too.


NTT's existence is canon, but not everything is. The arcs showing Donna and Lilith's origins weren't even still canon after the Crisis, let alone in Rebirth.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The book will just not exist if Dick isn't Nightwing. They didn't make Tim the new Nightwing when Dick became Batman and Damian became Robin, they made him Red Robin and ended the Nightwing title.


I believe the title Nightwing actually went to Chris Kent/Lor Zod.




> They also might just kill Dick off and write him out that way leaving the Nightwing identity open.


 They could always have Damian kill him. Or better yet, have dick hit his head on a rock and die while Damian is attacking him. What was the name of that video game?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don't know why Damian would kill him. Damian cares about Nightwing too much to kill him. Nightwing might need a new story. If they are going with 5G. What new thing can they do with Nightwing? Instead of replacing him. Maybe doing a Teen TItan storyline with Nightwing?

----------


## dropkickjake

I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.


Oh my bad.

About in the things you retcon what would you replace them with? It can be from Dick’s comic history or from outside media with him in it.

----------


## cc008

> I was referencing the "injustice: gods among us" story.


I enjoy how Dick comes back in that universe, fwiw.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?

----------


## Ascended

> I enjoy how Dick comes back in that universe, fwiw.


I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.




> Overall how popular is Grayson by DC fans?


Impossible to know. We don't have the kind of data we'd need to even make a guess. But he seems to be popular enough; his book is rarely in cancellation and is (when Ric isn't happening) a consistent mid-tier seller that outsells and out-lasts most anything that isn't League related (or Harley, gods that woman makes money!). He's used in a lot of larger media stuff as either Robin or Nightwing. He's maybe not A-list in the truest sense of the word, but I feel like he's easily B-list.

One thing that's hard to separate is Dick's popularity as his own character, and the popularity of Robin. Robin is of course, a much, much bigger brand with global recognition, while Dick as Nightwing is not on that level. But without any kind of evidence of any kind, just looking at the play Dick gets (cartoons, live action, etc etc etc) I don't think popularity with fans is his problem. Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Popularity with management might be, but it seems like, *as far as fans go, everyone loves Dick.*


Puns aside, among hardcore comic book fans, most people like him. Even those of other comic book companies. Even more casual fans of say, BTAS, Teen Titans, Young Justice, Titans, and Batman 66 all like him (though, the Titans run has had some stuff that made people call Dick, well, a dick).

But it does seem that it's management in the comic books side that has problems with him. And one in particular has even gloated abut the awful things done to Dick, so, yeah.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why does Dc have issues with him?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Why does Dc have issues with him?


Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."

----------


## Godlike13

> I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.


He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, don't Deadman and Dick have similar origins, both being circus acrobats? They were even paired up in a Flashpoint tie-in.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Mainly because he, "ages Bruce Wayne, and thus the other main League members as Dick grows older."


No he ages batman supes and wonderwoman dot age normal, but Bruce is a man who they won’t put down

----------


## cc008

> I never read the tie-ins. How'd he come back? It never happens in the game itself, unless you count Cyborg's ending.....and that's not Dick, that's an abomination.





> He takes over for Deadman. As dumb as the rock death was, even I have to admit that was a pretty cool move.


Yes, this ^

Death was stupid, but in the comic by Taylor, this is how he comes back. Somewhat makes up for his death. Not totally, but *shrug*

----------


## Digifiend

DC Collectibles has announced it's latest products - and that it's reverting back to it's original name DC Direct. And among them is Nightwing!
https://www.newsarama.com/49133-dc-c...r-line-up.html

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why does Dc have issues with him?


DC considers the Justice League to be the main characters of DCU, and as the main character, they want them to be in their prime. Middle-age, experienced, inspiring, strong and relatable. 

The Titans generation, including Dick, are younger versions of them. Same power set, but with more relatable characterization. They're friends who grew up together, so they have more fun, warmth, and friendship. They're YA stories' main characters, and YA is VERY popular in other media. Hunger Games, Twilight, Teen Wolf, Riverdale, Supernatural... note that while most of those stories are set in high school, the actors are the hot 20-something, even 30. The type of their target audience, teens, fantasize.

So they're a threat to DC's concept of main characters, and they did try to make the League generations young and hot in New 52 and get rid of the Titans except for the one they can't. Superman's 25, Wonder Woman's 23, Catwoman's 23, and Batman's only 31 because they have to accommodate the popular Robins, if Robins aren't popular, you can bet they would've made him 25 too, but 31 is young enough. Some of YA actors are 30-somethings.

Note that the League as main characters work just fine if the Titans don't exist, like the Justice League cartoon, because it's not like the League isn't friendly to each other or not relatable... but Titans are defined by growing up together, something the League never have. 

So when it comes to warmth and friendship the League will look colder and more professional by comparison, which is a double-edged sword too. Titans are taken less seriously than the League because they're more like a clubhouse in comparison. Also, sometimes DC themselves like to play this League vs Titans thing as professional vs friendship. That's your own fault, dude. Make something else. 

There's also the branding, and trying to maintain that brand. The League is the most known characters of DC if you don't count the Batfam, and they should be the focal point of DCU if you wanna be fair to the general DCU superhero, otherwise, you just use all the Batfam, but being the face is not the same as being the most likable. The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more. 

DC wants them to be both the symbol, and the relatable, but relatability isn't exactly something you can arrange, especially the way they did it. They made the sidekicks grew up, realize they're more likable once they grew up, and then try to force those elements into the older gen. I cringed the first time I saw The Flash in tv series and Snyder's League movie because the actors and performers are so obviously more fitting to be Wally.  

...and I don't know how to end this overly long tangent so there.

----------


## Digifiend

> The Queen is the symbol of Britain, but people like Prince Harry a lot more.


Used to. Harry and Meghan recently quit their royal duties, which many see as a betrayal. That will have hurt his popularity, big time. William and Kate are the hot commodity now.

----------


## Ascended

> Why does Dc have issues with him?


On top of what others have said, I think DC not only considers the NTT totally redundant, but can't figure out what role they *could* fill. The League are the biggest and best heroes, the ones you hope show up when things get bad. Then there's the sidekicks, Tim and Conner (and now Damian and Jon) and their role as "kids learning the ropes" or at least "young heroes short of their prime" is a well entrenched troupe. Everyone in comics are familiar with sidekicks. 

So where does that leave the NTT? They can't be the best of the best because the League are the bigger, more popular IP's and can't be replaced. They can't still be sidekicks, because we've got younger characters who fill that role, and the NTT are too experienced to really sell the "young heroes not yet in their prime" very easily. So what do you do with Dick and Donna and Wally, etc? Where do they fit in DC's very strictly structured and enforced pantheon? DC can't figure out that answer. 

And DC may also consider these guys a potential threat to the sales of the big guns (Im just guessing on that). Way back in the day NTT was DC's best seller, and those heroes are younger, hotter versions of the League. What could happen if they put an A-list creative team on Nightwing, or a NTT reunion book caught a second wind? Would Batman readers drop the Batman title for a quality Nightwing? Or the League for a good Titans reunion title? That could cost DC money. That's even more true for Wally, who *did* replace his mentor for over twenty years and built a large fanbase of his own. 

So Dick became the new Deadman in Injustice, huh? That's.....kinda cool, in its way. 

Oh hey, Dropkickjake, if you see this your inbox is full man, I can't send you a reply.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean any good writer can make Titans work. If anything can’t they work more like mentors? That’s one of the reasons why they didn’t want to be sidekicks anymore.

----------


## Ascended

They've tried the "mentors" thing with the Titans before, and haven't had much success with it. Which is fine by me, I don't see "teaching" as a viable long-term choice for the NTT. Honestly, almost nothing seems to move the sales needle though. Johns was able to make the book sell back in 00's, but that was in the height of his popularity and other than that it seems like the book sells what it'll sell and damn little makes a difference.  

Dick actually has the same kind of problem. Not as badly, but it takes a lot to make his book sell more (or less) than its average. The Grayson series sold noticeably better at first, and I maintain that if the title had remained "Nightwing" and if Dick had worn his costume instead of a generic covert/paramilitary outfit it would've sold even more. But outside of A+ (or F-) effort like that, Dick sells what he'll sell. Not the worst thing in the world at all, but it seems like DC has yet to find the magic pitch that'll send these IP's into higher rankings.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/s...693525504?s=19

Dan Didio has left DC. Dick might finally get a chance to thrive

----------


## Restingvoice

Dan DiDio is no longer with DC

I somehow think this is relevant to this thread

https://www.newsarama.com/49148-dan-didio-exits-dc.html

Lol the first Tweets are all best wishes except Rob Liefeld (of course)

----------


## Rac7d*

I here dan dido destroyer of dreams is out

----------


## AmiMizuno

So should the Titans no existed ? Or be something else? I don’t think they should be part of the JL. I mean there are other hero groups that existed without the JL

----------


## Jackalope89

> So should the Titans no existed ? Or be something else? I don’t think they should be part of the JL. I mean there are other hero groups that existed without the JL


Titans should be their own thing, with their own adventures, and _not_ under the purview of the League.

----------


## Digifiend

The League deal with global and extraterrestrial threats, so maybe the Titans should just be smaller scale? There's a reason the Justice League dropped the "of America" part of their name - maybe that's a niche Dick and co can fill? And yeah, the League should be allies, but not their superiors. They should be equals.

Textless preview for Nightwing #70.
https://www.newsarama.com/49146-does...ck-grayon.html

*spoilers:*
Sap vs Joker
*end of spoilers*

----------


## AmiMizuno

So maybe the Titans are the backups? So how would we need to make titans their own things and not a rip off of JL.

----------


## dropkickjake

> https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/s...693525504?s=19
> 
> Dan Didio has left DC. Dick might finally get a chance to thrive


holy wait wut. wait. wut. am I excited about DC Comics again?

----------


## Ascended

Remember back when we were talking about the situation with Dick and I pointed out that, if Didio's personal bias really was the reason Dick has been treated so poorly, all we'd need is someone above him to notice and make a call? 

It seems the call has been made and Didio is out as co-publisher. 

This is the opportunity I was talking about. Let's see what happens when the dust settles, and who replaces Dan and who else from the current management (Lee, Harras, etc) remain. 

I'm not going to celebrate Didio leaving. For all his flaws and failed efforts, he wasn't 100% bad, nor is he a monster. And he was, if nothing else, a fan. But this might be when we put to the test all of our claims about Dick as a viable property worthy of investment and effort. I would imagine if AT&T has anything to say about it, the new person will look at larger media success to inform the comics, and Dick's successes there might be what we've been waiting for. But if that person decides the secondary names aren't worth the effort? We may end up missing the days of Didio, when Dick got subpar creators but was still at least around.

Too soon to celebrate....but you can smell the opportunity in the air. If any of you follow AT&T or WB on social media, this is the time to get real f*cking vocal about Nightwing. We show our support right now, as loud as we can, in the hopes that it reaches the right ears and they recognize what we believe; that Nightwing can be more than just a Robin.

----------


## Badou

I'm not a fan of Didio. I'm not sad he is gone at all, but just because he is gone I don't think things are suddenly going to get better for Dick's character. People like Didio obviously didn't like legacy characters like Dick and didn't understand their appeal once they got older, but there are still serious issues that go beyond just him. In story things like Bludhaven still being a creative wasteland that Dick is unfortunately stuck in, but there weren't a ton of big creators knocking at the door to use Dick for anything, even in books outside the DCU where they probably had more freedom to use him, so things might just stay as they are and it won't bring about major changes. I really have no idea. 

But the comic division at DC Comics is just a small part of the AT&T/WB company. How Dick is used in the comics is so insignificant to them on the grand scale of things. So it could be very likely that Didio stepping down or being removed is just the larger WB company wanting to streamline things more and the comic division might become even less significant. It is hard to say.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick current problems is not just a Didio issue, Ric seemed more a result of Bob Harras then Didio even. They have to right the ship that is DC in general now. When and if that trickles down to Dick we will see i guess, but it probably won't be for a while. DC is clearly undergoing some big internal shifts. Which who know where they are going with that.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, we don't exactly know who decided to prolong Ric this long when they at first was not even sure about it... or do we?

----------


## Badou

Lodbell said he was the one that got Ric to last longer and campaigned for it. He originally said it was supposed to last 3 or so issues but he thought the Ric story could be like Dick's Oracle story and wanted it to last a lot longer. Then when that failed immediately he left the book as soon as he could, lol.

But Ric was a good way to write Dick out of the other ongoing stories at that time. This is just speculation but after Lobdell got Ric to last longer the character was stuck in a awkward position of these big Batman and JL stories going on at the same time. Obviously if Dick came back quickly then you would think that he would have been inserted into King's Batman story, Wally's HiC story, or Snyder's JL story which all involved Dick's close friends and allies going though these major things. Dick would look like an awful person if he just ignored everything that was going on. Extending the Ric story just meant they could have an easy excuse to ignore Dick's character while these other stories were going on. That is why I think it lasted so long at least. As for who approved all this I guess it was the main editors, guess the Batman ones, at the time along with Lobdell.

----------


## Godlike13

Right, but who is listening to Lobdell in the first place. Thats what says Harras to me. Didio positions himself as a lighting rod, but Harras is the EiC. Things like Ric and the day to day story directions is under his and his editors purview.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Right, but who is listening to Lobdell in the first place. Thats what says Harras to me. Didio positions himself as a lighting rod, but Harras is the EiC. Things like Ric and the day to day story directions is under his and his editors purview.


Oh yeah. Harras and Lobdell are friends, right? Old 90s Marvel buddies? 
By the way, I was surprised when I read the Age of Apocalypse issues by Lobdell because his writing sounds exactly the same.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## Ascended

> Right, but who is listening to Lobdell in the first place. Thats what says Harras to me. Didio positions himself as a lighting rod, but Harras is the EiC. Things like Ric and the day to day story directions is under his and his editors purview.


Yup. Just because Didio is leaving doesn't mean things are going to magically get better. There's a chance, but it's far from certain.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What is the best outcome for Dick?

----------


## gregpersons

This afternoon when most of comics twitter was talking about DiDio's firing, Devin Grayson tweeted a gif of Nightwing (from YJ) looking up and smiling.

Interpret that as you like. https://twitter.com/Gothamette/statu...33972123037697

----------


## Rac7d*

> What is the best outcome for Dick?


Dido leaving was that

----------


## yohyoi

So which one of you put a curse on Dan? Come on, admit it.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> So which one of you put a curse on Dan? Come on, admit it.


It was Zatanna.  She and Dick used to date in Young Justice.

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think Nightwing will be better since Dan is good? What stories haven’t they told that should be told ? I also wonder should any of the elsewhere stories be cannon for nightwing?

----------


## Rac7d*

With the possibility that their could be no comic books in say 5 years as this market continues to wither away it become very important to support your favorite character in other media, say Titans for example

----------


## Restingvoice

> You guys think Nightwing will be better since Dan is good? What stories haven’t they told that should be told? I also wonder should any of the elsewhere stories be cannon for Nightwing?


As I said in the previous answer, I like a story that makes sense with characterization and progression

Nightwing doesn't enjoy being Batman or secret agent, both jobs he takes because he has to, so it makes sense for him to leave the mantle and go off on his own again. Especially with Batman Incorporated's purpose, defeating Leviathan is done, and Bruce can return as Batman of Gotham instead of being an international manager. 

Next, his preferred place. It's been established that he likes being among the people he wants to save, so whichever town he chooses, he will stay in a cheap apartment close to the seedy neighborhood. 

So there's your groundwork. Pretty simple, but Dick is a pretty simple character. Like Superman, he wants to help people, he wants to be with people. 

So with a simple character like that, the outside environment is the one that has to be complex. Whether the Court of Owls keeps trying to turn him, Blockbuster going after the people he wants to protect, cleaning BPD that's not as easy as beating up villains, Dark Web and Mr. Minos trying to mind his head for superhero information... they've even add love troubles, falling in love with the wrong sorts, allies turned on him because he's a target of villains... 

but those are the ones they already did

So at least they need to add new villains that's enough of a threat for him and if not him, the people he cares about. 

Also, there needs to be enough time for him to hang out with the civilians in his environment. He says he wants to be with people but often authors are too focused on the villains. It will build enough empathy with reader so when the likes of Joker come you're actually gonna be worried. 

In Dixon's run, Dick is known and friends with the whole apartment, but I need to see that happening in real-time, not just to build a rep. I think Higgins did it better by making Dick hang out with his Chicago apartment-mates? I forget. 

The threat can range from the mob to villains to meta. Don't be afraid to use a meta. Go big and wild. He's governing a town almost as big as Gotham. Don't be limited to just alleys and streets. Snyder sent a Kaiju on Gotham, Higgins made him fight an Acheron demon, Seeley a boatload full of villains, and Percy an internet monster. I don't mind if he has to fight a sea monster, he's been fighting aliens and demons since he was a teen. 

Also, actually call his friends when he actually needs them. Don't go with _I need to do this alone_. Draw the difference between Nightwing and Batman by allowing a super or even a capable civilian to actually help him. If friendship, counseling, and mentorship is his strength, then let him use it. Don't be a macho solo. Establish that it's not a weakness to call for help when you need it.

----------


## Ascended

> What is the best outcome for Dick?


Best outcome? Harras leaves. Maybe Jim Lee too, though I don't know enough about the man's business acumen or opinions to say whether he'd be good for Dick (or DC) on his own or not. Harras definitely needs to go though. 

From there, one of two things; either the Bat office is told to stop their BS and treat Dick like a solo property instead of as part of Bruce's supporting cast, or Dick needs to be sent to the Super office, with the same warning about handling Nightwing as a solo IP. Bendis seems like the guy who's really in charge over there, and I think he'd do right by Dick, or at least ensure that Dick ends up in the hands of writers like Fraction and Rucka. Between the Bat office and Super office I feel like the Super one is run better right now so I'm partial to that option, but it's not gonna happen.

Whoever ends up in creative control of Dick needs to be at least a fairly popular and reliable creator, and they really need to cook the pitch and direction until it's done, crafting a status quo that is unique to Nightwing and plays to his strengths as a character and his history (not just Gotham, but his whole history). And then that creative team needs to be left alone to build and establish a world around him. It's unlikely Nightwing will jump up the sales rankings immediately (not without a huge name attached and maybe not even then) but consistently solid quality world building will win in the end, every time, and bear much sweeter fruit than a three month spike caused by some stupid shock value gimmick.

Giving Dick a leading role in a big event wouldn't hurt either, but given the "empty calories" of most events I don't think it's strictly necessary either.

But just because Didio is gone doesn't mean any of this will happen of course. Maybe someone takes over but feels the same way Didio did. Maybe someone from WB gets pulled in, knows nothing about DC, looks at the sales and reviews for Nightwing over the past 12 months, and cuts the book. Or maybe someone takes over and thinks Dick could make more money for the company, and all our dreams come true. This is why I'm saying we have to be vocal right now. Didio leaving means the higher ups are paying a bit more attention than usual. That halfway fixes one problem we've had; that Didio's bosses were too far above comics to notice or care. There's this theory in business and politics that if one person writes a letter or otherwise makes their voice heard, there's a hundred (or a thousand) who feel the exact same way that you're not hearing. So if we few make ourselves heard now, it may be assumed that we represent a lot more (and Dick's popular, so it's not just us few here on CBR) and that'll raise the odds of Dick getting his due.

----------


## Godlike13

Honestly the best outcome these days is probably that WB gets serious about wanting to do a Nightwing movie. In turn making the comic guys then get on the same page when it comes to the character and his brand. Leading to them investing better support, and actually trying to grow and strengthen the brand.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Someone told me in a preview Dick has a gun. Why does he need a gun?

----------


## Godlike13

That’s not Dick, but the older clone looking Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> Honestly the best outcome these days is probably that WB gets serious about wanting to do a Nightwing movie. In turn making the comic guys then get on the same page when it comes to the character and his brand. Leading to them investing better support, and actually trying to grow and strengthen the brand.


This is likely the most likely way to get DC to put any effort into Dick, but that's not in the hands of anyone at DC. Didio leaving doesn't really impact this too much. I mean, the comic guys can try to encourage the movie division, or whoever the hell makes these decisions, but I doubt they have much power there. They get to consult on the movies WB decides to make, but I don't think it goes much further than that.

----------


## Lazurus33

'Bleeding Cool now understands that yes, DiDio was fired this morning by Warner Bros at 10.30am PT in their Burbank offices and he left the building straight away. I am told by sources close to the situation that he was fired, for cause, for 'fostering a poor work environment'

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...ave-dc-comics/

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m curious what State would make sense for Bludhaven to be in?

----------


## Digifiend

Same one as Gotham, it's not meant to be very far away. Just a bridge separating them (same as Burnside, the place Batgirl called home for a while). Tim Drake went abroad, came back to find Gotham on fire. His plane was diverted to Bludhaven. Which is like a plane headed for Heathrow getting redirected to Gatwick (both are in London).

----------


## AmiMizuno

But I mean shouldn’t thr bridge bit far but also close? I keep going back and forth. I mean the fact is yea he was raised in Gotham but his personality doesn’t fit it. Most cities fit the characters. So shouldn’t Bludhaven be more a mix

----------


## jules

> Same one as Gotham, it's not meant to be very far away. Just a bridge separating them


It’s a bit further than that - or was, anyway. Back in the days when Dick originally moved there he could get on his motorbike and get from there to Gotham in under an hour when the call for an all-books crossover and crisis went out. It’s been a couple of years since I last read through that period, so I can’t remember if it’s ever said explicitly, but I got the feeling it was about 30 miles away down the coast, which is far enough away to operate independently but also close enough for it to be plausible that Dick could hang out with Tim, Babs, Bruce and Alfred in Gotham at the same time as he was having independent adventures of his own.

----------


## Ascended

Different maps put the cities in different places. Sometimes Metropolis is in Kansas, sometimes it's in a East coast state. Gotham is likewise put in different places, though it's almost always East coast I believe.

I imagine Gotham is in New Jersey, simply because it seems fitting to me thematically. Bludhaven is somewhere near there, maybe also in Jersey, maybe in New York or wherever.

The city is established as being very close to Gotham, but I think Dixon put it way too close. You could drive from Gotham to Bludhaven faster than you could drive from one end of Gotham to the other end, and that doesn't sit right with me. Might as well make Bludhaven a neighborhood in Gotham if it's that close. I like to think of Bludhaven as being a few hours away; close enough for Dick to get there if there's an emergency (or just to visit) but far enough for Dick to still stand on his own outside of Bruce's shadow.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The one thing I often wonder is maybe how much crime should actually happen in Bludhaven? I mean often the city either looks like Las Vegas or something else. Maybe it should be something like it looks safe but it’s not. I often thing maybe it should  be a big spot for film studios. To fit with Dick’s entertainment background. That maybe the city looks perfectly fit things look good it’s really at night

----------


## Digifiend

> Different maps put the cities in different places. Sometimes Metropolis is in Kansas, sometimes it's in a East coast state. Gotham is likewise put in different places, though it's almost always East coast I believe.
> 
> I imagine Gotham is in New Jersey, simply because it seems fitting to me thematically. Bludhaven is somewhere near there, maybe also in Jersey, maybe in New York or wherever.
> 
> The city is established as being very close to Gotham, but I think Dixon put it way too close. You could drive from Gotham to Bludhaven faster than you could drive from one end of Gotham to the other end, and that doesn't sit right with me. Might as well make Bludhaven a neighborhood in Gotham if it's that close. I like to think of Bludhaven as being a few hours away; close enough for Dick to get there if there's an emergency (or just to visit) but far enough for Dick to still stand on his own outside of Bruce's shadow.


New York seems unlikely, because the New Teen Titans, who became pariahs when their tower was destroyed, lived there, so if that's where Bludhaven was then they wouldn't have liked having Nightwing around.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean generally, in most cases it's New Jersey for Gotham and New York for Metropolis  However, it has changed from time to time. Where I think Gotham was in Delaware. I mean what would be the pro and cons of having Dick not being in the same State? He is still close but far away. I mean looking at the map he could easily live in Pen sate, Maryland. They are close yet their own thing. We also have conn

----------


## Ascended

> I mean generally, in most cases it's New Jersey for Gotham and New York for Metropolis  However, it has changed from time to time. Where I think Gotham was in Delaware. I mean what would be the pro and cons of having Dick not being in the same State? He is still close but far away. I mean looking at the map he could easily live in Pen sate, Maryland. They are close yet their own thing. We also have conn


There's really no benefit to establishing these cities in any particular location or state. Between zeta beams, Boom Tubes, Batmobiles, super-sonic flight, etc., any distance can be crossed in no time at all. And that's assuming you even care enough to track that sort of thing, and comics usually don't. If they don't worry about why Batman is in a full body cast in Justice League, lost in the Amazon jungle in 'Tec, and losing his city to Bane all at the same time, no one is gonna care how long it takes to drive from Bludhaven to Metropolis or Gotham either. 

It's nice to have a vague, ballpark idea of where the cities are, just for the nerdy fun of it, but it's really a non-issue. If they establish a city as being "a few hours from this other city" that's good enough for me. I'm far more concerned with the quality of the story than small details like this.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. It should be how Bludhaven works. How similar and should it be. Any idea? My idea is everything happens at night. That it’s not wanting to lay out it’s crime in daylight. They make sure to clean any blood or body

----------


## WonderNight

Man just give Bludhaven to tim or cass or something, Bludhaven show the problem with nightwing. Still to close and the same as the bigger ip it spinning out from.

Nightwing needs to be different from batman. Right now nightwing is as different from batman as bludhaven is from Gotham meaning just the same lesser cheap version.

Nightwing should be more and bigger than that. Listening to some nightwing fans makes me think they just want nightwing in bludhaven with the batfamily, nothing more than just one of batman's many sidekicks and supporting character's.

So what's the point of him being nightwing just have him be Robin again then.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So the best thing would be changing things. What if he was a PI? He gets to travel a lot . He gets to fight crime. The only issue and it’s still a issue he still needs a stable living Situation. So Bludhaven doesn’t have crime. He just lives there and travels to fight crime

----------


## dietrich

> Man just give Bludhaven to tim or cass or something, Bludhaven show the problem with nightwing. Still to close and the same as the bigger ip it spinning out from.
> 
> Nightwing needs to be different from batman. Right now nightwing is as different from batman as bludhaven is from Gotham meaning just the same lesser cheap version.
> 
> Nightwing should be more and bigger than that. Listening to some nightwing fans makes me think they just want nightwing in bludhaven with the batfamily, nothing more than just one of batman's many sidekicks and supporting character's.
> 
> So what's the point of him being nightwing just have him be Robin again then.


 On the list of things that make Nightwing seem like batman lite bludhaven is no 1052.
On the list of things that lead to him being treated like a batman supporting character 'The actual root of all the characters issues and the thing that holds him back' bludhaven isn't even a factor.

Bludhaven makes zero difference to him being close to the Bat Ip. Nightwing a non-powered costumed hero is always going to share to similarities with Batman. 
All the Bat characters are pretty much Batman lite including the metas and the 'anti heroes'

Red Robin doesn't have a city yet it's more batman like than Nightwing has ever been

The city isn't the issue.

Nightwing is.

Agent 37 was the sweet spot but I don't know how marketable in the long term that is.

----------


## Godlike13

The city nor Nightwing is the problem. The creative vision is. Bludhaven is a symptom, not a cause. It exists to felicitate a traditional format that makes it more convenient for them to produce quick and easy content in a factory like manner.

----------


## WonderNight

> On the list of things that make Nightwing seem like batman lite bludhaven is no 1052.
> On the list of things that lead to him being treated like a batman supporting character 'The actual root of all the characters issues and the thing that holds him back' bludhaven isn't even a factor.
> 
> Bludhaven makes zero difference to him being close to the Bat Ip. Nightwing a non-powered costumed hero is always going to share to similarities with Batman. 
> All the Bat characters are pretty much Batman lite including the metas and the 'anti heroes'
> 
> Red Robin doesn't have a city yet it's more batman like than Nightwing has ever been
> 
> The city isn't the issue.
> ...


I want saying it's bludhaven that makes nightwing into batman lite (it doesn't help). I ment was that bludhavens problems are the same as nightwing's to close and similar to what its spinning off of.

Yes nightwing and batman will have similarities and they should, batman WAS (not is) his mentor. But being similar and too similar.

Just have him be agent 37 as nightwing. Meaning agent 37 style missions and tone but as nightwing.

----------


## WonderNight

In my mind I truly believe nightwing has the potential stand side by side the trinity.

Nightwing being the face/lead of DC's espionage corner. Grayson showed that it works for dick, just have him do grayson but as nightwing instead of agent 37. 

I just don't see nightwing reaching his potential as someone else's supporting character.

----------


## Ascended

> True. It should be how Bludhaven works. How similar and should it be. Any idea?


SOOOOOooooooo many ideas. I humbly suggest taking a look at the "pitch a direction" thread, for more of my ideas than anyone wants, as well as a remarkable amount of genius from many of our fellow wingnuts. 




> Agent 37 was the sweet spot but I don't know how marketable in the long term that is.


Exactly as it was, without the "Nightwing" name or costume, with everyone thinking Dick was dead? Probably not very marketable long term. But a few minor tweaks to the Spyral status quo, where Dick hasn't faked his death and is still somehow using the superhero code name and costume? Now you've got Nightwing: DC's premier Super Spy. And that is, I believe, a very marketable premise in the long term. More marketable than Black Widow or Nick Fury, easily. Just take a look at what Young Justice season 3 did with Dick (especially early on), that's not too far off the mark of what such a direction could be. And that seems very popular.

----------


## Badou

Bludhaven is a big problem. Even setting aside the issues with how it forces writers to write him as some Batman-lite city protector character it isn't this harmless thing that people are making it out to be. It is actually a very damaging place that brings negative value to Dick's character and stories. How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU and puts him in a place that has no value. Even having him just operating out of Gotham give his character far more utility, imo. It is going on 25 years now since Bludhaven has been created and it has failed to produce anything substantial across many different writers. Probably more than 150 issues set there and not one thing from those stories has been able to become something readers can point to as being vital to Dick's character. That isn't some fluke. 

Continuing to force him and his stories to be set there severely limits what writers can do because you are forcing them to write in a setting that they have to fight against to produce a good story. They have to format it to fit in this place that brings no value to the table. Now isolation isn't necessarily bad. If Bludhaven was this amazing place (it never will be) then I'm all for wanting more stories there, but it isn't. It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events, and no events or bigger stories are coming from Bludhaven. No writer looks at Bludhaven and is excited to write about it when there are so many more interesting things in DC. 

It doesn't matter how you dress it up. You can make it an even darker Gotham or as bright as Las Vegas. You can give Dick any number of careers there too. It doesn't matter. That is just putting a fresh coat of paint on a house with a rotten foundation. It will never work because the setting is fundamentally broken. 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years from now Bludhaven will still be exactly what it is now with readers arguing over how it should be "fixed", but it will never be fixed because it can't be. 

I've said this many times, but it needs to be repeated because of how important it is. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven, he wasn't raised in Bludhaven, none of his family is from Bludhaven, he didn't create any of his superhero identities in Bludhaven, none of his major love interests are in or from Bludhaven, none of his friends or allies are in or from Bludhaven, no organizations or teams he is part of are from Bludhaven, and he doesn't have any long running career that ties him to Bludhaven. There are probably even more I am forgetting. I can't think of another major character from the Big Two publishers were they are forced into a setting for years and years where all these major things are completely absent as well. It is insane to me how people cling to it as a setting when all these vital things that are at the core of superheros and superhero stories are completely missing from it.

----------


## Godlike13

Bludhaven is not a conscious being. Its not what isolates him, its their chosen setting in which they have chosen to isolate him in. Its not what is forcing him out of DC. Bludhaven is there to facilitate more convenient production. It doesn't matter where they put him to tell traditional gotta protect my city or neighborhood directions. Created and made famous with the likes of Batman and Superman. No matter where they put him, they stick to same traditional formats he gonna come off like other traditional superheros. Bluhaven is just the result of DC's desire to do the bare minimum with Nightwing. Its silly to inherently blame Bludhaven for boring traditional stories, by boring traditional creators. Bludhaven lasted one creator before the next one tried to do a Born Again. Bludhaven was ok at first with Dixon, cause it was the first time we seen a solo Nightwing, but that wore off by the second creator trying a Born Again like attempt. Even when it comes to Seeley's run, he made Bludhaven more interesting to look at, but it was clear he wasn't really interested in that traditional format. So its not that Bludhaven is the problem causing this, not that its isn't a trap, but even Bludhaven is just a direct result of how DC views Nightwing and there limited creative vision for the character.

----------


## WonderNight

> Bludhaven is a big problem. Even setting aside the issues with how it forces writers to write him as some Batman-lite city protector character it isn't this harmless thing that people are making it out to be. It is actually a very damaging place that brings negative value to Dick's character and stories. How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU and puts him in a place that has no value. Even having him just operating out of Gotham give his character far more utility, imo. It is going on 25 years now since Bludhaven has been created and it has failed to produce anything substantial across many different writers. Probably more than 150 issues set there and not one thing from those stories has been able to become something readers can point to as being vital to Dick's character. That isn't some fluke. 
> 
> Continuing to force him and his stories to be set there severely limits what writers can do because you are forcing them to write in a setting that they have to fight against to produce a good story. They have to format it to fit in this place that brings no value to the table. Now isolation isn't necessarily bad. If Bludhaven was this amazing place (it never will be) then I'm all for wanting more stories there, but it isn't. It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events, and no events or bigger stories are coming from Bludhaven. No writer looks at Bludhaven and is excited to write about it when there are so many more interesting things in DC. 
> 
> It doesn't matter how you dress it up. You can make it an even darker Gotham or as bright as Las Vegas. You can give Dick any number of careers there too. It doesn't matter. That is just putting a fresh coat of paint on a house with a rotten foundation. It will never work because the setting is fundamentally broken. 2 years, 5 years, or 10 years from now Bludhaven will still be exactly what it is now with readers arguing over how it should be "fixed", but it will never be fixed because it can't be. 
> 
> I've said this many times, but it needs to be repeated because of how important it is. Dick wasn't born in Bludhaven, he wasn't raised in Bludhaven, none of his family is from Bludhaven, he didn't create any of his superhero identities in Bludhaven, none of his major love interests are in or from Bludhaven, none of his friends or allies are in or from Bludhaven, no organizations or teams he is part of are from Bludhaven, and he doesn't have any long running career that ties him to Bludhaven. There are probably even more I am forgetting. I can't think of another major character from the Big Two publishers were they are forced into a setting for years and years where all these major things are completely absent as well. It is insane to me how people cling to it as a setting when all these vital things that are at the core of superheros and superhero stories are completely missing from it.


Amen brother! Also look at outside media, people talk about titans and young justice etc. There not story's of him in bludhaven no there story's of nightwing with other heros fighting thought out the dcu.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean just because he wasn't raised in Bludhaven doesn't mean he can't make connections in that city. Clark was raised in Kanas but moved to Metropolis. In one way maybe Dick should just be a Private Detective. He travels a lot or he joins a circus. They still exist but these are acrobats.  The only issue is stable for the environment. So the Cirus will have to work. Or somewhere he travels a lot. Now sadly the issue becomes still we need to put him in a Batman comic so he can be traveling. He needs a job that can let him travel and be flexible so a PI is good. He doesn't need to be in Bludhaven. He can have an APT but he isn't in there but doing other things.

----------


## Ascended

> Bludhaven is a big problem. .......
> How it does this is first by isolating his character. It forces him out of the DCU
> 
> It also doesn't even protect Dick's character from being dragged into Justice League or Gotham events


I'm confused. Does it isolate him and keep him out of the DCU or not?  :Big Grin: 

I don't get you and your hate for that city man.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I feel like you're blaming a symptom for a cause. I mean, I get it, Bludhaven has suffered from the same lack of consistency and quality that has plagued Dick for years now. It has not been a well developed setting and Dick being the protector of a single city isn't exactly a novel concept. But it's not the problem. Dick's stories were no better when he was in Chicago were they? And after Infinite Crisis I think it might've been New York for a while right? Stories weren't better then either, as I recall. Dick was in Gotham for the New52, and the stories didn't improve because of it.

I mean, it's cool. I can't blame ya. I just don't get it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

WHat's bad about Dick being put in JL events? Almost every character has often been in JL events at one point already. And plus Dick is still important to Batfam. So he would kind of need to be put in certain events.  I mean any trope can work. Bludhaven needs to match Dick completely rewritten or he would have to at least move to Gotham

In general, his city or anywhere Dick is living needs to have some elements dealing with the entertainment industry. I mean due to his background the area should be more well known its industry.

----------


## Badou

> Bludhaven is not a conscious being. Its not what isolates him, its their chosen setting in which they have chosen to isolate him in. Its not what is forcing him out of DC. Bludhaven is there to facilitate more convenient production. It doesn't matter where they put him to tell traditional gotta protect my city or neighborhood directions. Created and made famous with the likes of Batman and Superman. No matter where they put him, they stick to same traditional formats he gonna come off like other traditional superheros. Bluhaven is just the result of DC's desire to do the bare minimum with Nightwing. Its silly to inherently blame Bludhaven for boring traditional stories, by boring traditional creators. Bludhaven lasted one creator before the next one tried to do a Born Again. Bludhaven was ok at first with Dixon, cause it was the first time we seen a solo Nightwing, but that wore off by the second creator trying a Born Again like attempt. Even when it comes to Seeley's run, he made Bludhaven more interesting to look at, but it was clear he wasn't really interested in that traditional format. So its not that Bludhaven is the problem, not that its isn't a trap, but even Bludhaven is just a direct result of how DC views Nightwing and there limited creative vision for the character.


You are correct in what Bludhaven was created to be. It was meant to serve as setting for traditional hero stories and Dixon did a basic and fine job for a character that was was coming out of an awful Titans series and had never been a solo character before. There was nothing to compare it to, but we are 25 years removed from that. Many other creators have come in and written Bludhaven stories and none have been able to produce anything where it feels integral to the character. How many more writers have to come in and fail to do anything substantial before we are ready to move on and say that maybe Bludhaven is an issue and not the lack of effort by the creators? 

It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Readers have this attachment to this city because of the previous 150 issues and think that if you just change this, add that, and invest even more time there it will suddenly work, but it never will. You have all those major problems I mentioned previously, but this is where Bludhaven becomes not just a symptom but a negative asset or a liability to the character. Bludhaven isn't a setting that inspires creators to want to write there. No writer is excited to dip their toes into Bludhaven and explore it. It becomes an actual deterrent from attracting writers to the character if Dick is stuck and isolated in a setting that they don't have an interest in. That is a big problem. Maybe that is why we get such uninspired stories there. 

I think we have already reached that point. You had Seeley who if given the choice would not have wanted to set his Nightwing run in Bludhaven, but he was forced to if he wanted to write Nightwing and some look at his run as the best Bludhaven run Nightwing had. Think about how much better his run could have been if he was allowed to use a setting that he wanted? 

As Nightwing Dick's never had a setting other than Bludhaven for more than 20 something issues, right? So it isn't like they planted their flag anywhere else to really test to see if Bludhaven is a problem or not. I mean we both enjoyed the Spyral run and the spy setting. Had they explored that more even with Dick going back to Nightwing maybe that could have built into something interesting. Something where creators, maybe even prominent creators, feel like they want to sink their teeth into that world and write stories there, but I don't see Bludhaven ever being that.

----------


## gregpersons

Nightwing should be a spy — Agent 37 but in costume and as Nightwing — for Batman Inc, which he runs with Wayne funding but not direct oversight by Bruce. There are some secrets that Nightwing keeps even from Batman.

Tonally, Nightwing should not be Batman-lite. Setting-wise, he should not be tied to a Gotham-lite/dark. 

He should be more like Booster Gold or Harley Quinn. I was thinking at first this might be too sci-fi for him but I think it fits really well, actually — Nightwing should have some kind of spy-tech that allows him to teleport. Teleporting is a weirder thing than most Batman adventures, so it sets Nightwing apart, and it allows him to be flexible and acroabtic — leaping from one place to another through portal/teleportation tech.

It's not a motherbox, or Skeets, but something a bit more low-tech hi-tech, like a portable watch version of the JLA teleporter. The teleporter should be a bit slow and janky, frequently breaks, as does a lot of his equipment, which serves both to up the stakes and give Nightwing comical problems. "Of course I get the hand-me-down tech." Superman and The Flash can still arrive at a situation faster than Nightwing can teleport, but he'd be able to show up faster than the Bat-plane.

----------


## AmiMizuno

But the whole point was not be funded by Bruce so that can be an issue. It depends on how much influence Bruce has.The more I think about it. Didn't Nightwing have a career in Harley Cirus? Why not DIck make his own spy or rather something similar to that? THan again are the titans kind of like?

----------


## Badou

> I'm confused. Does it isolate him and keep him out of the DCU or not? 
> 
> I don't get you and your hate for that city man.  I feel like you're blaming a symptom for a cause. I mean, I get it, Bludhaven has suffered from the same lack of consistency and quality that has plagued Dick for years now. It has not been a well developed setting and Dick being the protector of a single city isn't exactly a novel concept. But it's not the problem. Dick's stories were no better when he was in Chicago were they? And after Infinite Crisis I think it might've been New York for a while right? Stories weren't better then either, as I recall. Dick was in Gotham for the New52, and the stories didn't improve because of it.
> 
> I mean, it's cool. I can't blame ya. I just don't get it.


You misunderstood my post. I'll explain it a bit more. Basically I was implying that when he is in Bludhaven because it holds no real value to the character, since all his more important connections and relationships are outside of Bludhaven, he gets cut off from things readers actually want to see more of, but then if Bludhaven was actually this good thing for the character it could serve as a place to protect him from bad stories he is dragged into outside of it if he is stuck in Bludhaven. Like how Batman has his Gotham stories that are mostly separate from his non Gotham stories where you don't have to worry about what is going on in the JL, but Bludhaven isn't a strong enough setting to protect Dick from that. He gets dragged back into Gotham if they need to throw him under the bus for something. So even after decades of stories it isn't like Bludhaven is any better than most of these other one off settings Dick has had. 

And none of those other settings were that long. I think the NYC run was the longest at maybe under 30 issues? So it isn't like he has a large sample size in other settings as Nigthwing to really see how it goes. I do know that after 150+ issues in Bludhaven we are still having the same conversations about it that we've had for years or decades. Maybe after another 5 or 10 years of forgettable Bludhaven stories more people will start flipping to my side.  :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

One thing I wonder. What do you guys think about the fact Dick is basically the go-to guy for all the Batfam to rant about? He is literally the glue. Bruce even goes to him at times. For the most part Dick understands Bruce has found out secrets. I honestly most has Dick even broke down? HE literally has the wait of the whole family at times.

----------


## Godlike13

> You are correct in what Bludhaven was created to be. It was meant to serve as setting for traditional hero stories and Dixon did a basic and fine job for a character that was was coming out of an awful Titans series and had never been a solo character before. There was nothing to compare it to, but we are 25 years removed from that. Many other creators have come in and written Bludhaven stories and none have been able to produce anything where it feels integral to the character. How many more writers have to come in and fail to do anything substantial before we are ready to move on and say that maybe Bludhaven is an issue and not the lack of effort by the creators? 
> 
> It feels like a sunk cost fallacy to me. Readers have this attachment to this city because of the previous 150 issues and think that if you just change this, add that, and invest even more time there it will suddenly work, but it never will. You have all those major problems I mentioned previously, but this is where Bludhaven becomes not just a symptom but a negative asset or a liability to the character. Bludhaven isn't a setting that inspires creators to want to write there. No writer is excited to dip their toes into Bludhaven and explore it. It becomes an actual deterrent from attracting writers to the character if Dick is stuck and isolated in a setting that they don't have an interest in. That is a big problem. Maybe that is why we get such uninspired stories there. 
> 
> I think we have already reached that point. You had Seeley who if given the choice would not have wanted to set his Nightwing run in Bludhaven, but he was forced to if he wanted to write Nightwing and some look at his run as the best Bludhaven run Nightwing had. Think about how much better his run could have been if he was allowed to use a setting that he wanted? 
> 
> As Nightwing Dick's never had a setting other than Bludhaven for more than 20 something issues, right? So it isn't like they planted their flag anywhere else to really test to see if Bludhaven is a problem or not. I mean we both enjoyed the Spyral run and the spy setting. Had they explored that more even with Dick going back to Nightwing maybe that could have built into something interesting. Something where creators, maybe even prominent creators, feel like they want to sink their teeth into that world and write stories there, but I don't see Bludhaven ever being that.


Only 3 writers have had substantial runs with Bludhaven prior to the start of Ric. Your making it the focal point of a problem it’s not responsible for. You gonna seriously sit here a blame Bludhaven for creators like Lobdell and Jurgan’s awful garbage. The problem is beyond a setting. Be New York, Gotham, Chicago, or Bludhaven. Bludhaven is a trap perpetuated by a bigger issue.

And don’t think anyone is saying keep Dick in Bludhaven at this point. That’s not the point here. But its not Bludhaven with its foot on his head. Supplying him with the likes of Lobdell and Jurgan’s to fill in the art with boring ideas and tired executions is attempt to keep Nightwing all to itself. It’s just a trap city that makes it easy for DC to poop out factory like stories with whatever various creators they are willing to put on it.

----------


## Badou

> Only 3 writers have had substantial runs with Bludhaven prior to the start of Ric. Your making it the focal point of a problem it’s not responsible for. You gonna seriously sit here a blame Bludhaven for creators like Lobdell and Jurgan’s awful garbage. The problem is beyond a setting. Be New York, Gotham, Chicago, or Bludhaven. Bludhaven is a trap perpetuated by a bigger issue.
> 
> And don’t think anyone is saying keep Dick in Bludhaven at this point. That’s not the point here. But its not Bludhaven with its foot on his throat. Supplying him with the likes of Lobdell and Jurgan’s to fill in the art with boring ideas and tired executions is attemptnto keep Nightwing all to itself. It’s just a trap city that makes it easy for DC to poop out factory like stories with whatever various creators they will afford to put on it.


My dislike of Bludhaven extends well beyond Ric though. I was making the same arguments before Ric was even a thing. About how I felt the city did not inspire creators to want to write there and bred poor creativity. That it adds negative value to trying to get writers interested in Nightwing's character and brand. So sure, those other settings and cities have the same issues Bludhaven does, and I am sick of the "city protector" derivative stories they bring about, but they don't have the same level of negative baggage with them at least.

I just do not think Bludhaven is blameless. It isn't THE reason for Nightwing's problems, but it is a reason. I think the Lobdell and Jurgens stories are worse off for having to be set there. I just don't think writers are interested in the city and if they have to write there they will change it to something they are more interested in, which speaks to fundamental issues with it too and if writers have to constantly change it to be interested in it maybe it is time to move on.

----------


## Badou

I mean after Final Crisis it isn't like creators were rushing to rebuild Bludhaven and write there again, right? It felt like they were all fine with moving on and trying something else because they weren't that inspired by the setting anymore. I mean Bludhaven got nuked and Dick kind of got happier in Tomasi's run from what I remember, lol.

----------


## Aahz

> I mean after Final Crisis it isn't like creators were rushing to rebuild Bludhaven and write there again, right? It felt like they were all fine with moving on and trying something else because they weren't that inspired by the setting anymore. I mean Bludhaven got nuked and Dick kind of got happier in Tomasi's run from what I remember, lol.


There wasn't really much of  point in rebuilding it, since they killed almost Dick's entire Supporting cast (the only survivers were afaik Amy Rohrbach and Bridget Clancy) and his main villain, before they nuked it.

----------


## Godlike13

Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing story prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run. Tomasi’s run I think gets more credit because of how turds and directionless the book was in the time prior. 

After they blew up Bludhaven I think there was a mini series about it, of course with no sign of Nightwing cause again he was going to die, leading to an Uncle Sam series I believe. After that there was Countdown, I want to say something with Omac, and then of course it was Darkseids base in FC. Which then Dick became Batman, and that was about it with Bludhaven. Notice how even when they brought the greater DC into Bludhaven, Dick was always missing for it.

----------


## Aahz

> Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing stories prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run.


Allready pre Infinite Crisis his series had been pretty bad, basically everything since the Story arc where Block Buster died run was crap untill Thomasi took over, and some of it was imo far worse then Ric.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well Dick was suppose to die in Infinite Crisis too. Dick moved on to probably one of the worst Nightwing story prior to Ric, followed by an awful Wolfman run designed to prelude his upcoming Vigilante run. Tomasi’s run I think gets more credit because of how turds and directionless the book was in the time prior. 
> 
> After they blew up Bludhaven I think there was a mini series about it, of course with no sign of Nightwing cause again he was going to die, leading to an Uncle Sam series I believe. After that there was Countdown, I want to say something with Omac, and then of course it was Darkseids base in FC. Which then Dick became Batman, and that was about it with Bludhaven. Notice how even when they brought the greater DC into Bludhaven, Dick was always missing for it.


Ah yes, I was wondering about that earlier, why Nightwing didn't revisit Bludhaven, but I forgot that Nightwing was expected to die.

I don't remember who the author was but they had to scramble to fulfill both the Jason Nightwing plan Didio had AND the fact that Dick's still alive, and the result was Tentacle Jason.

----------


## dropkickjake

If we were going to make a Dick Grayson appreciation thread Bingo, "Badou claims that Bludhaven is irredeemable" would definitely be on it. 

It has been a problem. I think that Chuck Dixon's conception of it was horrible, tbh. It was like a Hell's Kitchen knockoff and a Gotham knockoff all at the same time. Thing is, when Dixon was writing the character, I'm not sure that Dick had been written as nearly as quippy as he has been in the last 10 years. I honestly thing that Morrison's Run with Dick as the Batman who smiles and laughs has had as much bigger impact on the character than most of us realize.

But back to my point, you had Dixon write the place as a knockoff of two other books, and no one else really cared to write the place I think. The problem is when you force writers to do stuff they have no excitement about. Dick living in Bludaven isn't the problem, but editorial forcing Seely to write stories in the city was.

----------


## Ascended

> You misunderstood my post. I'll explain it a bit more


Thanks for clarifying. 

But it's not the city that matters. You're right that being in Bludhaven doesn't generate the kind of "protection" you mention, but when DC treats Dick like he's nothing more than a sidekick who happens to have his own book, the setting wouldn't matter. Like this whole Ric thing. If Dick had been living in another city, King still would've derailed the Nightwing writer's plans and had him shot in the head. The problem is how DC views Dick, and until that changes his setting doesn't matter, he'll still get pulled into stupid crap from the Bat office and thrown under buses. 

Now, if the argument is that being the protector of a city is limiting Dick and forcing him into a standard superhero role he doesn't really fit, I completely agree. But in the end, these are all just symptoms of how DC handles the character. Didio would have wanted Dick dead in 06 whether he lived in Bludhaven or New York or Jump City or Metropolis. Dick would have continued getting low quality creators regardless. He would've been forced into that Bat-lite mold regardless. 

If DC started treating Nightwing like a solo IP instead of a sidekick, the problems that have plagued the character end. Moving Dick to a different city will make no difference.

And hell, I just re-read some of Seeley's run, and within two trades we had solid appearances by Superman, Wally West, and Damian. The good parts of Dick's history and relationships were present, the stories themselves were solid, and Dick was living in Bludhaven. And if Dick had been living in NYC, they still would've been solid.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Our issue is DC's view of the character and the shape they force him into. The setting isn't the problem, DC is.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What if Bludhaven was more like a growing movie/entertainment place. It fits his entertainment background

----------


## Ascended

If it's well done and well conceived I don't really care what the specifics are. If it feels like Nightwing and not Bat-lite, if it's fun and the craft is quality, I'm happy. 

If I want to see my own specific ideas brought to the page then I better change careers and start chasing a job at DC.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

Right, though right now they need to stop trying to force feed readers something they clearly do not want.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How so? Like the Ric story? How it's literally brought his sales down

----------


## Ascended

> Right, though right now they need to stop trying to force feed readers something they clearly do not want.


But it's so smart and good and novel! If only readers were smart enough to see how amazing it is! History will validate DC and applaud what they're doing for the masterpiece it is!

......

that's sarcasm. Just in case it didn't translate well through text.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Celgress

> But it's so smart and good and novel! If only readers were smart enough to see how amazing it is! History will validate DC and applaud what they're doing for the masterpiece it is!
> 
> ......
> 
> that's sarcasm. Just in case it didn't translate well through text.


I love this post, great job. *THUMPS WAY UP*  :Cool:

----------


## AmiMizuno

What has been your 10 ten best moments in the comment with Dick? Also does Jim Lee have any negative feelings about Nightwing?

----------


## kjn

Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.

----------


## L.H.

I like this fake preview much more than the original.

----------


## Restingvoice

Marcus To

tumblr_9c030a24c3faa89f5a5d12c1d25913b4_264a9850_540.jpg

----------


## Vordan

> Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.


I... I kind of want to read more?

----------


## Godlike13

LoL, that’s not even Dick. The current Nightwing team should be proud how effective their work has been.

----------


## Jackalope89

> LoL, that’s not even Dick. The current Nightwing team should be proud how effective their work has been.


True. The gun gave it away.

----------


## Ascended

> I... I kind of want to read more?


I know right? 

And yes, obviously that's not actually Dick. But in *this* satire it is, and he's chasing down the person who took down Didio and robbed Dick of revenge. And that's a story I kinda want more of.

----------


## Ascended

> What has been your 10 ten best moments in the comment with Dick? Also does Jim Lee have any negative feelings about Nightwing?


Sorry, not following. 10 best moments in the comments? You mean here on CBR? Well Celgress just gave me a thumbs up, so that's cool.  :Big Grin: 

If you mean favorite Dick Grayson moments? I dunno what my top ten are. At least half of them probably happen in larger media though. 

I've never watched the show but "F*ck Batman" is pretty great. Someone had to say it, it's needed to be said for a while now, and I'm glad it was Dick who got to. I don't know what the context was or anything, like I said, never saw the show. It just makes me happy to hear Dick say it. 

And from that Batman/Harley cartoon all of you wrongly dislike, "What, like you never made out with a super villain?" That was a good line, I think that says a good bit about both of these characters actually, and their dynamic. 

Basically every second of screen time in Young Justice.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Bleeding Cool's Improbable Preview has Nightwing trying to work out who fired Dan Didio.


Lol That Liefield dig!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?


At the start of the new 52 joker showed up killed his love intrest and blew up his circus and supporting cast, I am expecting a redo here

----------


## Godlike13

> I know right? 
> 
> And yes, obviously that's not actually Dick. But in *this* satire it is, and he's chasing down the person who took down Didio and robbed Dick of revenge. And that's a story I kinda want more of.


Even if this is satire, my point is people can’t even tell the difference between the old Nightwing and their new Nightwing. As this satire inadvertently demonstrates. Illustrating what an ineffective waste of time those on it last two years of work has been. It’d be funny if it wasn’t sad.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Is the Nightwing team going to change once Ric is over?


They usually change for a relaunch or reboot or if someone pitch a better idea, so I expect it will change if the Generation series that's launching the new DC timeline is finished and if... IF they relaunch all titles with a new number #1 

Otherwise, the chance is lower

----------


## Digifiend

> At the start of the new 52 joker showed up killed his love intrest and blew up his circus and supporting cast, I am expecting a redo here


Ami meant creative team. Though I do agree that Joker will probably kill Sap and the other three fake Nightwings. Possibly Bea as well, which would remove all of Ric's ties to that life, prompting him to embrace his previous identity as Dick/Nightwing.

----------


## L.H.

I'm not so sure about Bea. In Batman Beyond #41, Dick says that Elainna's mother is dead. What if she is Bea's daughter?
Ok, I'm joking. I hope.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall while I don't hate Dick x Babs.  I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Overall while I don't hate Dick x Babs.  I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?


So what do you want ?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean I like Kori and Dick. But I thought Dick had other serious relationships. Same with Babs. I don’t hate these pairings it’s just sometimes they made Dick a Dick. Cheats on one with the other. Just keep Dick single if they are going to keep him a cheat with the two

----------


## Ascended

> Even if this is satire, my point is people cant even tell the difference between the old Nightwing and their new Nightwing. As this satire inadvertently demonstrates. Illustrating what an ineffective waste of time those on it last two years of work has been. Itd be funny if it wasnt sad.


Well that's true enough. Though admittedly, as far as the art goes, it's a white dude with dark hair in a Nightwing costume. They all look the same (artists seem to have like, two-three stock images and they just change the hair and costume). That could be Bruce or Clark in the costume, yknow?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But you don't have to convince me this whole Ric thing was a waste of time. I'll be glad when it's over.

Also, on the returned topic of love interests? The only correct answer is Power Girl.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Overall while I don't hate Dick x, Babs.  I don't like it how everything has to be within the family. I really want there to be more than just Dick x Babs or Babsx Bruce. I mean is Dick with someone right now?


Bea




> I mean I like Kori and Dick. But I thought Dick had other serious relationships. Same with Babs. I dont hate these pairings its just sometimes they made Dick a Dick. Cheats on one with the other. Just keep Dick single if they are going to keep him a cheat with the two


Okay, where have you been hanging out? The number of comic book issues where he cheats, or listed women like a player is literally three out of a thousand but some anti shippers like to bring them up to show that Dick's a cheater, manwhore or womanizer.

----------


## kjn

> Also, on the returned topic of love interests? The only correct answer is Power Girl.


Time for this image again?

----------


## bearman

Or Zatanna.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Or Zatanna.


Why are people upset that raven has been aged down so to a point where  she can be a peer to Damian 
But forget zatanna was one to Bruce? Or even Barbra for that matter

----------


## Godlike13

Cause humans aren’t a hive mind  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Digifiend

> Why are people upset that raven has been aged down so to a point where  she can be a peer to Damian 
> But forget zatanna was one to Bruce? Or even Barbra for that matter


Not just a peer, a love interest - at least in the cartoons.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Why are people upset that raven has been aged down so to a point where  she can be a peer to Damian 
> But forget zatanna was one to Bruce? Or even Barbra for that matter


Cartoons are a powerful thing. Zatanna's brief love interest with Dick in YJ was hella cute. And then Dick and Babs in BtaS.

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah power girl or zatanna would be great. I like babs as a character but not a love interest for nightwing.

Dick needs someone who isn't strongly tied to the bat mythos. It makes him into a glorified sidekick, I mean look at his solo right now.

He's fighting batman's villains, batfamily supporting character that some fans want all the time and a bat mythos love interest is just to much, there's a huge dcu out there.

Nightwing ends up nothing more than a batman side book. Dick deserves better and nightwing deserves more than everything batman side character/book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah power girl or zatanna would be great. I like babs as a character but not a love interest for nightwing.
> 
> Dick needs someone who isn't strongly tied to the bat mythos. It makes him into a glorified sidekick, I mean look at his solo right now.
> 
> He's fighting batman's villains, batfamily supporting character that some fans want all the time and a bat mythos love interest is just to much, there's a huge dcu out there.
> 
> Nightwing ends up nothing more than a batman side book. Dick deserves better and nightwing deserves more than everything batman side character/book.


It’s not the the bat mythos it’s just the office

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, it’s not fair to blame the Bat mythos for bad writing and lazy creators who keep retelling the same Gotham villain comes to Bludhaven bit. Not that Dick doesn’t need to get the hell out of that current umbrella right now. 

Really they should have used some Bluhaven villains, even though I know Bludhaven villains are not the cream of the crop. Still the whole premise behind them ripping off We Are Robin was that Bludhaven needed Nightwings. Yet all they do is recycle fighting against Gotham villains for the most part.

----------


## WonderNight

Oh don't get me wrong I'm not blaming the bat mythos, just pointing out that if all the important roles in nightwing ( love interest,  support characters and villains) are being filled with someone else's mythos batman's. It limits dick greatly and leaves him as a glorified sidekick.

I mean what was the point in making him nightwing if everything about him is going to be batman.

----------


## xiyon

> Also, on the returned topic of love interests? The only correct answer is Power Girl.


Has Dick ever interacted with Power Girl?

----------


## WonderNight

> Has Dick ever interacted with Power Girl?


read power girl #16 & 17

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious I  have seen this every now and then that Tim overall beats Dick in skills. What do you guys think about that? I mean in terms skill who really is better? Honestly, I feel that they are equal. It's more Dick as the experience. Also, I get writers who don't want to get tied down. But ever so often I feel a little they should. I feel Nightwing suffers from at times what Wonder Woman goes through. She isn't right now. But for many runs, they just like to restart her or just make changes that don't need to be done. They don't do anything new.

----------


## Rac7d*

> read power girl #16 & 17


Is that it? In his whole 80 year history? Plus she tend be active on earth alternate to any with a supergirl

----------


## Badou

> Is that it? In his whole 80 year history? Plus she tend be active on earth alternate to any with a supergirl


She and the other JSA members helped Dick move into his NYC apartment I think in Tomasi's run, but I don't think she had any dialogue with him. The two have barely interacted. They just operate in different parts of the DUC.

----------


## bearman

Since the JLA refuse to do the obvious thing, I hope Dick joins the JSA

----------


## Ascended

> Has Dick ever interacted with Power Girl?


Not a ton. On top of what others already mentioned, they worked together in the pre-52 Justice League a bit too. 

They haven't interacted much at all. Yet. That's pretty easy to fix.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I'm curious I  have seen this every now and then that Tim overall beats Dick in skills. What do you guys think about that?


Who says that? 

I think Tim's better at *some* stuff. He's a better detective and better with technology. I don't like the hyper genius he was in the New52 and Rebirth but he's always been the "smart" Robin. But Tim's most certainly not as good an athlete or fighter, he's not close to being as good a leader. He's not nearly as good with women.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, I'd say Dick's the best athlete among the Robins, Jason's the best with firearms, Tim's the best detective and technology expert (among the Robins - Babs definitely has him beat on the tech but he's good enough that it was a long time before he even interacted with Oracle), and Damian's the best with melee weapons. Nobody's got top marks on everything.





> Puppets, an 8-page story Nightwing story written by Steve Orlando with art by Tom Lyle
> 
> As a child, Dick Grayson saw his world come crashing down when his parents were killed by mobster Tony Zucco. Now Zucco's son has been kidnapped by the Ventriloquist, and Nightwing is his only chance to make it home alive. Dick must make a choice: How far is he willing to go to save the son of the man he hates most?


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...henry-flash-4/

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah, I'd say Dick's the best athlete among the Robins, Jason's the best with firearms, Tim's the best detective and technology expert (among the Robins - Babs definitely has him beat on the tech but he's good enough that it was a long time before he even interacted with Oracle), and Damian's the best with melee weapons. Nobody's got top marks on everything.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/02...henry-flash-4/


Dick dated Zucco's daughter once so that's not even a question, but this story is more for casual fans.




> Is that it? In his whole 80 year history? Plus she tends to be active on earth alternate to any with a supergirl


Pre-Crisis, they're both members of... was it JSA or JLA? JSA I think. The Earth-2 one.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, I'd say Dick's the best athlete among the Robins, Jason's the best with firearms, Tim's the best detective and technology expert (among the Robins - Babs definitely has him beat on the tech but he's good enough that it was a long time before he even interacted with Oracle), and Damian's the best with melee weapons. Nobody's got top marks on everything.


I don't think firearms and melee weapons are really defining skills for Jason and Damian.

Jason isn't Deadshot, he wasn't even carrying pistols in a lot of issues since the costume redesign, and during Under the Red Hood his main weapon was his Knife and not his pistols.

Damians iirc also not used swords in quite some time.

And Dick has also shown to be quite good with guns and sword on several occasions.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m curious to how often should Nightwing appear in Batfam comics? We might now stop writers from having him appear but how often would help

----------


## Ascended

I don't care if Dick shows up in Batman comics. I'm glad when he does. That's good exposure, though if we're being honest most people reading Batman are aware of Nightwing and a cameo isn't likely to draw many readers to Dick's book if they're not there already. But still, I'm cool with Dick hanging with the Bat family. That's *his* family too. I just don't want Dick treated like a sidekick, and I don't want his solo book under the heel of another title. Not Batman's, or Superman's, or the Titan's, or anyone. Dick should be his own man. But he can still go home to visit. 

Personally I tend to like the "civilian clothes" appearances more than the superhero team up's. It's always nice to see Dick kick ass with Bruce, but I tend to value the times they just hang out, in real people clothes, and we get a real look at them and their dynamic.

----------


## AmiMizuno

In the Batman comics is he at least written well. Also I hope with Dido gone they speed up Dick coming check. You literally have many choices for him. Diana could heal Dick quickly.


Also has Dick gotten the name Nightwing from Clark or it’s something else.

----------


## Digifiend

Dick did get it from Clark. He was inspired by the legends that Superman had told him about.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, the story of the Flamebird and Nightwing is part of Kryptonian Rao myth. The Flamebird, a deity of death and rebirth, was married to Vohc, a god of creation. He'd build things, and the Flamebird would burn them all down to be remade. He got to keep inventing and building new things, pushing his creativity, while she got to burn stuff. It worked. For a time.

At one point, Vohc introduced his friend Nightwing (a god who hunted in the shadows for evil that sun god Rao couldn't find) to Flamebird, and the two began an affair. Vohc builds a new thing, a testament to his love of Flamebird. Rohc begs her not to destroy this one thing he's made. But, because it's her role, purpose, and job, she does anyway, despite truly loving the monument. Between this and the affair Rohc loses his mind, and goes from being the "builder" to the "breaker" and I *think* he kills the Nightwing (or the Flamebird, or both?) thus setting the Nightwing and Flamebird on an eternal cycle of rebirth much like Hawkman and Hawkgirl's; they must find each other over and over again only to be betrayed by a friend. 

Clark told all of this to Dick, along with other stories and things from Krypton, when Dick was still a kid. This is back when Robin actually hung out with Superman a fair bit, even without Bruce around. So when Dick decides to build his own heroic identity, he takes the name Nightwing from that story.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What if Dick just went back to Haley Circus? He would Travel and not be in one city. He can return to bludhaven when the circus returns

Or Bludhaven can work but why not have Nightwing be in the entertainment industry

----------


## Digifiend

Not exactly helpful with his secret identity, is it? If Nightwing appeared in every place the circus did, it would seem pretty obvious that he himself is part of the circus.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. He could be part of a acrobat team in bluhaven. I mean other than acrobatics. What other field could work. If we were to go to the entertainment field for Grayson which would work? I mean Bludhaven shouldn’t be trying to be a ripoff of Gotham. Rather a mix of Gotham and Metropolis. If we take one of the best or worst part than maybe Bluhaven can work. I mean Metropolis is way safety and clean. The worst part of metropolis?  Gotham is really just crime 

Bludhaven can’t be Gotham since Dick ain’t Bruce.

----------


## Ascended

> Not exactly helpful with his secret identity, is it? If Nightwing appeared in every place the circus did, it would seem pretty obvious that he himself is part of the circus.


I mean, it would depend on how well known Dick is wouldn't it? And how visible Nightwing is. 

If Dick is a main attraction and he's got posters with "The Flying Grayson" all over town, and then Nightwing shows up ten minutes later shaking hands with people and posing for selfies, then yeah that *could* become a problem.

But if Nightwing isn't putting himself out there for the public to see? Then at most he's just a blurry photograph someone snapped of some random vigilante (of which the DCU has tons) and there's no real reason to connect that to Dick. 

Besides, it's the DCU. No one figures out that Superman, who makes his home in Metropolis, looks exactly like Clark Kent, who also lives in Metropolis. No one figures out that Batman must go through so much money that only a handful of people could afford to be him, and ultra rich Bruce Wayne came back to town just when Batman first debuted. If people aren't going to put these things together, then I doubt they'd put together Dick Grayson's identity either.

As for Ami's question; yeah I'd support Dick returning to Haly's. It's one of the few things that is well and truly his

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean, it would depend on how well known Dick is wouldn't it? And how visible Nightwing is. 
> 
> If Dick is a main attraction and he's got posters with "The Flying Grayson" all over town, and then Nightwing shows up ten minutes later shaking hands with people and posing for selfies, then yeah that *could* become a problem.
> 
> But if Nightwing isn't putting himself out there for the public to see? Then at most he's just a blurry photograph someone snapped of some random vigilante (of which the DCU has tons) and there's no real reason to connect that to Dick. 
> 
> Besides, it's the DCU. No one figures out that Superman, who makes his home in Metropolis, looks exactly like Clark Kent, who also lives in Metropolis. No one figures out that Batman must go through so much money that only a handful of people could afford to be him, and ultra rich Bruce Wayne came back to town just when Batman first debuted. If people aren't going to put these things together, then I doubt they'd put together Dick Grayson's identity either.
> 
> As for Ami's question; yeah I'd support Dick returning to Haly's. It's one of the few things that is well and truly his


yeah and move zatanna to bludhaven to help sell it as a entertainment city and a star performer.

Give zee something outside of JLD.

----------


## Ascended

Zee, for sure. I never complain about her showing up somewhere. 

Could bring in Mister Miracle, or Black Canary, boxing matches with Ted Grant....there's some interesting guest star possibilities.

----------


## Kaled

So has anyone seen the Nightwing's Escrima stick props  by NECA displayed at the New York Toy Fair. img_7334.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

If he returns to Haly's how should it be handled? I feel maybe there could be there. Haley Circus works in two ways.  Doing the winter they stay in Bludhaven and other seasons they travel. This also makes me wonder how will Dick get his tech in hiding?  WHat criminals will he hunt down?

----------


## Godlike13

There's no going back to Haley's. Not with the Court of Owls story.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean DC has been retconning many things. But I'm just saying in general. What if there were to be a rewrite. A what-if. Things can't go on like this for Nightwing. I mean if he did stay in Bludhaven the city needs to match him. How do you rewrite this city? I say colorful and cheer in the morning but to match nightwings terrible and scary.

----------


## Godlike13

They tried to rewrite the city, lasted one or two creators before they brought in their good old boys and generic artists who didn't really care, and so just ignored it and reverted right back to the bland boring looking city we currently see in his book. They proven it a pointless endeavor.

And Haley's has been too corrupted now. The Court are too popular, and they need Haley's to be a place of hidden horror. Dick can't go home again, cause his home is now a lie.

----------


## Fergus

> So has anyone seen the Nightwing's Escrima stick props  by NECA displayed at the New York Toy Fair. img_7334.jpg


These are nice.

----------


## AmiMizuno

In other words what’s the point of trying to fix Nightwing ? I mean the court of owls are more Batman than Nightwing. If we want a court it has to be one that makes sense. Dick could just be a Private Investigator. That’s the only other way. Or just straight up reboot

----------


## Ascended

> There's no going back to Haley's. Not with the Court of Owls story.


Even if that's still in continuity, or will be after the next round of retcons and reboots, that sort of thing is pretty easy to undo. 

I mean, this is DC. They've completely and utterly changed every facet of Krypton, often within a continuity. Haly's isn't a challenge. And given how the Court has been written lately, with all the stupid, pointless, nonsensical plots they've been behind, you could say the whole Haly's thing from the New52 was some weird Court plot, and not even have to worry about it making sense.

----------


## Godlike13

> In other words what’s the point of trying to fix Nightwing ? I mean the court of owls are more Batman than Nightwing. If we want a court it has to be one that makes sense. Dick could just be a Private Investigator. That’s the only other way. Or just straight up reboot


There is no point in going backwards, trying “fix” the character old pitfalls. That has proven to just be an excuse for the current Bat office to get away with being lazy. They fix Nightwing by moving on to trying new pastures. With fresh creators and new ideas. 




> Even if that's still in continuity, or will be after the next round of retcons and reboots, that sort of thing is pretty easy to undo. 
> 
> I mean, this is DC. They've completely and utterly changed every facet of Krypton, often within a continuity. Haly's isn't a challenge. And given how the Court has been written lately, with all the stupid, pointless, nonsensical plots they've been behind, you could say the whole Haly's thing from the New52 was some weird Court plot, and not even have to worry about it making sense.


The Haley’s thing from the New 52 was a weird Court plot, yet nevertheless important to the Court’s mythology. It’s not something I see them undoing as they seem to value the Court. It’s also their lazy go to with Dick.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If Haley Circus can be saved with retcon how would you want it to be written?

I mean Diana went from being the same age in the beginning to being oldest of the trinity. So it’s not impossible for them to be retcon out of

----------


## Ascended

> The Haleys thing from the New 52 was a weird Court plot, yet nevertheless important to the Courts mythology. Its not something I see them undoing as they seem to value the Court. Its also their lazy go to with Dick.


No, I don't expect DC to erase this. And I generally follow the "move forward, don't regress" mindset. I'm against reboots  on principal (despite DC not agreeing with me). 

But the thing with Haly's? The only character at the circus that really, ultimately mattered is Haly. He's been part of Dick's story from the start, and you could say that he's one of the only long-standing supporting cast members that is truly Dick's, and not tied to another character. And he's dead! Except (if you wanted to change it without a reboot), that wasn't really Haly! It was a clone the Court grew to manipulate Dick! And the real Haly has been held in a safe house ever since, and once Dick eventually rescues him, Haly re-opens the circus! There, problem solved and it doesn't change the events of the continuity. Does it make sense? No. Is it a weird, dumb idea? Absolutely. But the Court worship a bat demon and have enacted some really stupid plots in the past, so this fits right in.

Haly and the circus could be brought back easily with a simple "you thought you knew, but what *really* happened was....." thing. I don't generally like that kind of revisionism but it *can* be used to positive effect. And getting Haly back would be a net gain.

----------


## Godlike13

As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.

----------


## Ascended

It doesn't have to be looked at as it was though. 

Dick grew up thinking of the circus as a safe place where his happiest years were. The fact that he later finds out it wasn't as perfect as he thought isn't a big thing. How many of us grow up and find out our hometowns weren't as idyllic as we thought? That sounds like story potential to me more than it sounds like a negative thing.

Is it convoluted? Sure, but no more than anything else. Dick found out the Court used to recruit from the circus. Then he thought Haly died. He finds out later it wasn't really Haly, and Haly re-opens the circus. It's not complex. 

I'm not saying it's what *should* happen. I'm just saying it'd be viable. Maybe not what you'd like to read personally but not a narrative dead end. Hell, Ric still not having his memories has more plot holes than this.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean a if not the circus whatever route? I mean if we place him as a actor would that make sense? If he likes to help others in careers?





> There is no point in going backwards, trying “fix” the character old pitfalls. That has proven to just be an excuse for the current Bat office to get away with being lazy. They fix Nightwing by moving on to trying new pastures. With fresh creators and new ideas.


Not when they keep making the same mistakes with these new ideas. I can’t see what’s your point. All the other characters have their issues fix and they are better for it. Diana was the worst of them all. They been a lot careful with her. Going back to her actually history and not doing the same mistakes.

----------


## dropkickjake

> As long as the Court still exists, it would loom over even that ridiculousness. Not to mention the more ridiculous hoops they jump through, the more ridiculous Haley’s would become. Further changing it in ridiculous ways. The Court fundamentally corrupts Haley’s. It can’t be looked at as it was as long as the Court exists.


Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Thats... well, quite uncreative in my opinion. All it takes would be for Mr Haly, Dick's Mr Haly, to be the first one to stand up to the court, to say, "No. I'm not going on with this, you can't have him." That actually makes his connection with Dick even stronger.


Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing?  SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick can also figure ways to take down the court at least in Haley's. Your acting like comic writers hasn't saved terrible character storylines or other things. So why can't it happen with Nightwing?  SUperman just had his parents come back. Everything gets retcon.


I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so they won't let a retcon happen.

----------


## Godlike13

Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement. 
So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals. 




> I think what godlike is saying is that DC will choose the court of owls over haley's so the won't let a retcon happen.


Exactly.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Haly’s being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dick’s Haly. Dick’s home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. It’s not a good and happy place anymore. Saying it’s not perfect is a huge understatement. 
> So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Haly’s he knew didn’t really die. Or him saying it wasn’t me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dick’s Haly. As long a Court exists, Haly’s circus’ role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses can’t even brush off their cruelty to animals. 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.


Really think this is far too simplistic man. I think that Mr. Haly being the first in a long line to ringleaders to refuse to play along with the court strengthens his character, preserves Dick "safe" home, and still allows the Court to exist and have used Haly's as a recruiting ground for a long, long time. To your point that DC will keep the Owls over Haly's, I'll agree, but I think DC cares very little for the Haly's aspect of it because that was tied so closely to Dick rather than Bruce. They could lose that aspect and DC wouldn't even blink.

To your point about actual circuses and animal cruelty... That just shows that comics are clearly different operate under a different set of rules than real life.

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh, fair enough.

----------


## Ascended

> Halys being a breeding ground for the Court roots before even Dicks Haly. Dicks home is responsible for countless zombie assassins. His great grandfather is the face of them. Its not a good and happy place anymore. Saying its not perfect is a huge understatement. 
> So any Haly reopening a circus that did horrible things, and existed to feed monsters, is more complex then the Halys he knew didnt really die. Or him saying it wasnt me. Its corruption goes beyond just Dicks Haly. As long a Court exists, Halys circus role in the Court is not something easily brushed off. Nor is something DC would brush off. Hell modern day circuses cant even brush off their cruelty to animals.


I get what you're saying. I just don't see it as a deal breaker. Haly himself can be redeemed without actually changing any past events, and the rest of the circus crew is either dead or non-entities who don't matter (I don't think any of the New52 performers were around when the Graysons were flying). Haly can tell the Court, if they even approach him again (at this point would they see the same value in the circus, especially when their involvement is known?), to sod off. Write him as a victim instead of an accomplice. The Court's previous involvement with the circus, as well as Haly's refusal to work with them, can be a source of narratives and give Dick something to chew on as he reconciles his childhood memories to the reality he discovers as an adult. 

The circus isn't a hill I'd die on. Dick's done okay by himself all these years without that being a factor and can continue to do okay. But at the same time, it's one of the few things Dick has that is truly his, baked into his origins. And I can't think of a viable reason to not use it, in some shape or form (not necessarily exactly as it was). How much of Dick's world actually belongs to him, and wasn't handed down by someone else? Even the name came from Clark. The closest things he has to a nemesis all come from Batman. His closest friends come from the Titans. Haly and the circus are one of the few things that has remained a part of Dick's story throughout the years and adaptations and one of the only concepts that didn't come from somewhere else. Seriously, why wouldn't you want to utilize that? Just because the New52 stuff adds a Court shaped complication? That's an opportunity, not a detriment, in my mind. 

Obviosuly YMMV, and that's cool, but even if the New52 didn't do great things with the circus I think it'd benefit Dick a lot to use it; the guy needs more stuff that is his, and his alone.

----------


## Digifiend

All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.

As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.

----------


## Rac7d*

> All of the Robins get their best friends from outside of the Bat family, not just Dick. Dick's are Wally and Donna. Jason's seems to be Roy (RIP), who was also Dick's friend. Tim's are Conner and Bart, and Damian has Jon. Being a bat is a lonely job. Being a Titan, Outlaw, or Young Justice member, or Super Son counteracts that.
> 
> As for the circus thing, unfortunately it's a telltale sign that Dick was first created 80 years ago. No way would someone created now be a circus kid - they're a lot less commonplace.


Well if they allow dick to age it can be retained, I was time drakes age last time I saw the circus, in the future he might just be gymnast

----------


## Godlike13

Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, you don't see a circus like you used to. But there's still plenty of stuff that's pretty close. You still have county fairs and the more elegant stuff like cirque du soleil. I think we can still say that Haly's was one of the last active, old school circuses when Dick was a kid....but realistically it might be too late for that, even. But if/when a future update or reboot wants to mix it up there's still options out there that get the job done.

And if people in the DCU still read newspapers and fly in blimps, maybe they still go to the circus too?

----------


## Godlike13

I still see small circuses from time to time pop up.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Really think this is far too simplistic man. I think that Mr. Haly being the first in a long line to ringleaders to refuse to play along with the court strengthens his character, preserves Dick "safe" home, and still allows the Court to exist and have used Haly's as a recruiting ground for a long, long time. To your point that DC will keep the Owls over Haly's, I'll agree, but I think DC cares very little for the Haly's aspect of it because that was tied so closely to Dick rather than Bruce. They could lose that aspect and DC wouldn't even blink.


C.C. Haly didn't refuse to hand Dick to The Court, Bruce just got there first, and Haly had to settle with handing their second best. He only regretted it, as far as we know, in his old age, as the not-Talon went after him, so he decided to hand Dick the Circus as a confession and apology

----------


## Celgress

> Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.


A valid point.

----------


## WonderNight

Hey what do you guys think of the new character punchline becoming dick's "Joker". I looked at interviews talking about her character, she contrast nightwing in the same way joker does batman. Plus she already seems a breakout star (with both her debut selling out).

Oh for grayson fans dr.netz is back.

----------


## Badou

Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.

----------


## L.H.

Have you heard about the Nightwing spin off to be set in the Murphyverse? I think this could be interesting.

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.


I mainly agree but since dc want's him in the batman lite role so bad they mine as well go full stop. Dick currently is the " batman of bludhaven" so why not a joker (and robin).

----------


## dropkickjake

> C.C. Haly didn't refuse to hand Dick to The Court, Bruce just got there first, and Haly had to settle with handing their second best. He only regretted it, as far as we know, in his old age, as the not-Talon went after him, so he decided to hand Dick the Circus as a confession and apology


Yeah, I was talking about potential for a retcon there. 




> I mainly agree but since dc want's him in the batman lite role so bad they mine as well go full stop. Dick currently is the " batman of bludhaven" so why not a joker (and robin).


Yeah this is all just terrible though. Dick needing to be Batman Lite: Bad. It only gets worse as you try to make everything in his life a knockoff version of something Bruce has. 




> Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.


Agreed with this entirely. 




> Circus kids were never common place. As an orgin I think it still works fine, as a direction for him as an adult. Not so much.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of him joining the circus, honestly. It was alright for one story arc under Higgins where dick owned the thing and traveled with it, but as a long term direction I'm not a fan. Much more a fan of him opening a casino in Bludhaven or Amusement Mile in Gotham.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick's "Joker" being a Joker lackey isn't something I would be interested in. Though in general I'm not fond of the idea of trying to force Dick to have his own "Joker" as it feels contrived to me. It feels like her character is set up to be more of a adversary of Harley Quinn too anyway.


I like Prank from the Chicago arc

----------


## Badou

> I like Prank from the Chicago arc


He was a character editorial forced on Higgins. He didn't even want to use him if I remember correctly, and had other plans with an unused villain being a former sidekick of a Chicago hero and turn Tony Zucco into Dick's Joker.

----------


## Ascended

> Have you heard about the Nightwing spin off to be set in the Murphyverse? I think this could be interesting.


Haven't read any of Murphy's stuff but I'm always looking for quality Nightwing stories. If he did it, and it was good, great!




> Hey what do you guys think of the new character punchline becoming dick's "Joker". I looked at interviews talking about her character, she contrast nightwing in the same way joker does batman. Plus she already seems a breakout star (with both her debut selling out).
> 
> Oh for grayson fans dr.netz is back.


Awful idea.

The Joker is Batman's arch nemesis. The most serious of serious threats. The #1 bad guy in Gotham. Making Dick's nemesis equivalent his f*cking sidekick? How does that benefit Dick? I guess it's a grand idea if you think Nightwing is nothing more than a sidekick himself....

It'd be fine if he was still a Robin. The parallels are obviously there (and part of the reason I got such a kick out of Dick and Harley in that cartoon). But for someone who's supposed to be an independent, solo hero? I think it's actually a worse idea than Ric. Seriously, the idea of Punchline, or any Gotham villain sidekick, Dick's nemesis.....DC trying that might actually make me leave in disgust.

Besides, DC doesn't just decide who the nemesis is. That's not how it works. A nemesis evolves after years of continued use, acclaimed stories and cool moments, building a high profile and fan demand. Showing up in a popular adaptation doesn't hurt either. DC can push a villain, intending it to be Dick's nemesis, but they don't control all the variables.

I think Blockbuster is as close to a nemesis as Dick has. He's about the only villain who appears in the comics consistently. And I think Pyg is in the running, maybe, since he's appeared in Dick's book a few times; if that keeps up Pyg could steal the crown.

----------


## WonderNight

> Haven't read any of Murphy's stuff but I'm always looking for quality Nightwing stories. If he did it, and it was good, great!
> 
> 
> 
> Awful idea.
> 
> The Joker is Batman's arch nemesis. The most serious of serious threats. The #1 bad guy in Gotham. Making Dick's nemesis equivalent his f*cking sidekick? How does that benefit Dick? I guess it's a grand idea if you think Nightwing is nothing more than a sidekick himself....
> 
> It'd be fine if he was still a Robin. The parallels are obviously there (and part of the reason I got such a kick out of Dick and Harley in that cartoon). But for someone who's supposed to be an independent, solo hero? I think it's actually a worse idea than Ric. Seriously, the idea of Punchline, or any Gotham villain sidekick, Dick's nemesis.....DC trying that might actually make me leave in disgust.
> ...


oh well lol, guess you guys don't like it cool.

But no I'm not the one that views nightwing as a sidekick, DC does! How many batman posters with nightwing being just another face in a big crowd do fans need to see before they get that. DC views nightwing as just another Robin or batgirl to batman.

If I had my way nightwing would be in a different office and his solo would be a globetrotting espionage team up book with characters character like Wally, Donna and Superman teaming up.

I don't want batman lite but that's the box DC has put him in.

----------


## Godlike13

Nightwing is below sidekick even. The harsh reality is that even Punchline is above Nightwing in how DC views him. He’s nothing but a fodder character. They’ll use him to pad her status, but nothing more. Nightwing just exists to feed bottom of the charts creators they like having around. That is the purpose of the character and his title now. To just give guys like Lobdell and Jurgan’s something to do.

----------


## Ascended

> oh well lol, guess you guys don't like it cool.
> 
> I don't want batman lite but that's the box DC has put him in.


Just to clarify, I have absolutely nothing against Dick fighting Punchline or Harley or any other villain's sidekick. There's potent story material there. I actually wish Dick would run into Harley more often, because they share that "former sidekick" thing. So yeah, by all means have Punchline or whoever show up. 

Just don't decide that's gonna be Dick's big bad number 1 villain.

But DC absolutely thinks of Nightwing as nothing more than a sidekick, despite the fandom saying otherwise. So that's probably what they'll try.

EDIT: Oh, I didn't think *you* were saying this about Punchline being Dick's big bad, I meant a general "you" not you you specifically. Sorry if there was a miscommunication!

----------


## WonderNight

> EDIT: Oh, I didn't think *you* were saying this about Punchline being Dick's big bad, I meant a general "you" not you you specifically. Sorry if there was a miscommunication!


 Oh your cool no problem, I just set in my shower crying for 3 hours.  :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?


Okay no to the circus it's too outdated? What about simply being a tutor? There are still acrobats around? Or a dancer. I do think the entertainment industry is the choice for Dick. That or PI. I mean a stuntman can work for Dick.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?
> 
> 
> Okay no to the circus it's too outdated? What about simply being a tutor? There are still acrobats around? Or a dancer. I do think the entertainment industry is the choice for Dick. That or PI. I mean a stuntman can work for Dick.


I don't know about Black Label in particular, but I wouldn't mind Elseworlds where it focused on say, Dick's kids in some sort of shenanigans. Could be Mar'i and Jake, could be the Earth 2 son he had with Babs, could be Batman Beyond daughter... There's a lot of potential there.

----------


## Ascended

> Oh your cool no problem, I just set in my shower crying for 3 hours.


>phew!< I was afraid you were gonna take it personally. Glad we dodged that bullet!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?


I'd think the most obvious choice would be a sexy, Bond style noir story. Not necessarily with Spyral, but along the "super spy" lines. 

I'd like to see a retro pulp Nightwing set in the mid-late 40's. Just after the war perhaps.

----------


## WonderNight

I just want something epic! Nightwing was created as a titan not a bat solo so I believe dick as nightwing should be having more epic titan style story. That's one of the things that made Grayson work was having fun adventures all over the DCU.

----------


## bearman

Does anyone know if DC management actually reads this forum?
 We have rabid Dick fans, who have felt unhappy and ignored for several years; we are all united in wanting more for Grayson.
 But there doesn’t seem to be much response from the company.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not sure DC management even knows about the internet.

----------


## K7P5V

> If I had my way nightwing would be in a different office and his solo would be a globetrotting espionage team up book with characters character like Wally, Donna and Superman teaming up.


Great idea! Maybe they could revive either _DC Comics Presents_ or _The Brave & the Bold_, and have Dick be the headliner.  :Wink:

----------


## WonderNight

Ok small rent but I was reading the 5g threads and it's sad how so many fans see nightwing as a stepping stone to batman. Even a lot of fan has come to view nightwing as a sidekick.

It why I what nightwing out of the bat office so much. DC has turn nightwing back into robin in a lot of fans eyes.

It would be great to see nightwing develop into a main hero with his own mythos one day but right now he's just a support character and dick deserves better.

----------


## Digifiend

And the whole point of the Nightwing identity was to distance Dick from being seen as a sidekick.

----------


## Ascended

> Does anyone know if DC management actually reads this forum?
>  We have rabid Dick fans, who have felt unhappy and ignored for several years; we are all united in wanting more for Grayson.
>  But there doesn’t seem to be much response from the company.


Some pro's pop in now and then. Busiek has a whole Q&A thread on the Marvel forums and seems to post fairly regularly. 

And I *think* DC does have someone who keeps half an eye on forums and social media. But places like this aren't really a metric for the whole fandom; we're at best one small variable in a much larger equation. I mean, just look at Ric. This forum hated it with the burning passion of a thousand suns before it even began, but sales held mostly steady for what, the first year of Ric? By the same token, we hated the idea of Grayson at first, then ended up loving it. But the sales were high at first, then returned to normal. So what we say here doesn't really carry much weight.

----------


## Ascended

> Ok small rent but I was reading the 5g threads and it's sad how so many fans see nightwing as a stepping stone to batman. Even a lot of fan has come to view nightwing as a sidekick.


Get me a job in the editor's office and I'll fix this sh*t up quick.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

> Some pro's pop in now and then. Busiek has a whole Q&A thread on the Marvel forums and seems to post fairly regularly. 
> 
> And I *think* DC does have someone who keeps half an eye on forums and social media. But places like this aren't really a metric for the whole fandom; we're at best one small variable in a much larger equation. I mean, just look at Ric. This forum hated it with the burning passion of a thousand suns before it even began, but sales held mostly steady for what, the first year of Ric? By the same token, we hated the idea of Grayson at first, then ended up loving it. But the sales were high at first, then returned to normal. So what we say here doesn't really carry much weight.


To put Ric into perspective, sales weren't good to begin with on the title at the time. So that sales remain steady at those lows is indicative to a negative reaction. The goal was to get the book off its floor with the stunt. Not flat line them at those lows. Also remember books are ordered months in advanced, and no one knew what they were doing with Nightwing beyond rumors as leaks as they kept it under wraps for the Batman issue. So we wouldn't see an immediate drop.

----------


## Rac7d*

> And the whole point of the Nightwing identity was to distance Dick from being seen as a sidekick.


Unless your in the trinity, everyone is a sidekick to batman tho

----------


## K. Jones

> I have been wondering. What black label story could work for Dick? A what-if or a storyline you would like to see expanded on?
> 
> 
> Okay no to the circus it's too outdated? What about simply being a tutor? There are still acrobats around? Or a dancer. I do think the entertainment industry is the choice for Dick. That or PI. I mean a stuntman can work for Dick.


Black Label I'm not sure. I mean I could drum up a notion pretty quickly, I think ... you get a Black Label run you can get a little artsy with it. Things to avoid? Stories where parallel stories of his time as Robin have something to do with something that's happening Now! My god! The past comes back to haunt you ... with retcons! Every damn story these days. 

But I think a story where he tries to become a nighttime vigilante in Metropolis for a month would make for some good comedy.

As for what I think would be good for Dick's future, Black Label, or otherwise ... presently that's easy as hell.

Black Knight of Checkmate. Checkmate is being overtly put back together carefully in the DCU right now. It's almost assuredly going to feature this new King, they just hired the Toyman, Steve Trevor is there, we've got Lois Lane's involvement, Ollie, Kate Spencer, Jessica Midnight getting back in the game, Renee Montoya. Sasha Bordeaux has been seen recently. Probably get Helena Bertinelli in there. So on and so on and so forth. Dick should 100% be one of the Black Knights and one of the profile characters, the protagonists. Plus setting Dick as one of the Black Knights, opposite Steve Trevor who is so overtly a White Knight, would make for a really cool dynamic as well.

----------


## WonderNight

Agent wing nightwing!  Nightwing being checkmates top agent their captain America could be awesome. Hell they are ready had tiger in event leviathan and now dr.netz in leviathan dawn. Get the grayson gang back together.

----------


## Ascended

> To put Ric into perspective, sales weren't good to begin with on the title at the time. So that sales remain steady at those lows is indicative to a negative reaction. The goal was to get the book off its floor with the stunt. Not flat line them at those lows. Also remember books are ordered months in advanced, and no one knew what they were doing with Nightwing beyond rumors as leaks as they kept it under wraps for the Batman issue. So we wouldn't see an immediate drop.


Ah that's true, I forgot the sales were low before Ric started. 

But my point still stands; what we say on the forums isn't always a good metric for the entire community. We're worth paying some attention to; we're the most zealous of the fanbase, to spend our time posting on forums. But we shouldn't be what DC bases decisions on.




> Unless your in the trinity, everyone is a sidekick to batman tho


Even the rest of the Trinity is Batman's sidekick.

If anything positive comes from the upheaval in DC, I'm hoping its the realization that although Batman is their biggest money maker, it's not the only profitable or viable IP and not everything and everyone has to bow down to the glory of the Batgod. Perhaps, if they put half as much effort into other characters as they do Batman, he wouldn't be their only reliable, top-end franchise. I don't worry about DC when a publisher gets fired or a company buys WB, but I do worry about what'll happen to them when Batman stops being popular.

----------


## K7P5V

> If anything positive comes from the upheaval in DC, I'm hoping its the realization that although Batman is their biggest money maker, it's not the only profitable or viable IP and not everything and everyone has to bow down to the glory of the Batgod. Perhaps, if they put half as much effort into other characters as they do Batman, he wouldn't be their only reliable, top-end franchise. I don't worry about DC when a publisher gets fired or a company buys WB, but I do worry about what'll happen to them when Batman stops being popular.


Agreed. *Green Lantern* is proof of that.  :Wink:

----------


## Ascended

So I learned recently that DC, WB, and AT&T hired a woman named Lifford to oversee all things DC, with an eye towards cross-format synergy and using the comics as source material for adaptations. 

What do we think this does for Dick's odds going forward? 

There's not a ton from the comics worthy of larger media adaptation. Dick's had good stories but very few that're self contained enough to be easily translated. But he's popular in larger media, and the DCU app apparently uses him as their poster boy (from what subscribers have said here). Tons of appearances in games and cartoons. 

Could this benefit Dick in the comics? If Lifford is looking at synergy and using the comics for media adaptations, what're the odds that Dick gets some attention in the comics to provide adaptable material for the larger media stuff, where he's already popular?

I've said in the past that all Dick needs is for someone at WB or AT&T to notice him and wonder why the comics suffer so badly when he's successful everywhere else. Could we be getting that now? Not that anything would happen immediately, but does anyone think we might be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel soon? Or am I just being foolishly hopeful?

----------


## WonderNight

It will depend on if the outside media influences the comics also. If it's just the comics with the influence than oh God. But if they can take the best things about nightwing from outside media and bring them in to the comics and build on it then nightwing can have a bright future.

----------


## Drako

We should avoid DC next animated movie.

JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below

https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5

----------


## Jackalope89

> We should avoid DC next animated movie.
> 
> JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below
> 
> https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5


Well, here's hoping that whatever comes next, it does a far better job. Some of the animated films have been interesting, even good. Others, I just passed over.

----------


## Ascended

That's my question too. Jim Lee recently admitted that the comics are nothing more than an IP farm for larger media. And that's fine, honestly, that's good for us. That might even encourage the comics to improve their game, if they think there's a better chance of getting adapted. 

But does the synergy flow both ways? Because if the larger media stuff Dick already has (like Young Justice and DCU Titans) starts to influence and improve his comics, which then get adapted into larger media, which then influence and improve the comics......that's a cycle I'd be happy to find ourselves in.

I mean, we're still talking about WB and DC. Mostly it's all the same people in charge (except Didio) who have marginalized Dick in print. So my hopes are not high. But....maybe....we have reason for a tiny, tiny bit of hope.

I'd feel a hell of a lot more hopeful if Harras had gotten kicked to the curb too. But still, maybe the end of these dark days isn't too far off......

----------


## Badou

> We should avoid DC next animated movie.
> 
> JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below
> 
> https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5


Dick getting killed or maimed in some story? I'm shocked. SHOCKED. 

Well not that shocked, lol.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> Dick getting killed or maimed in some story? I'm shocked. SHOCKED. 
> 
> Well not that shocked, lol.


Tbf, the first act looks to be a bloodbath for better or worse. Expect a lot of gratuitous blood and gore to justify that R rating  :Stick Out Tongue: . Only survivors of the initial assault on Apokolips looks to be Clark, Damian, Lex, Constantine and Raven. But yeah, I don’t think Nightwing is being singled out, for what it’s worth.

----------


## Ascended

I don't watch the movies, but it's JLD and New Gods. I'm imagining there might be some magic and/or mind f**kery involved too. That might actually be a hallucination, Evil Factory clone, illusion, who the hell knows.

Or, much more likely, it's a blood bath early on to show how dire things are and a whole ton of people, including Dick, are going to die.

Is that Superman with the beard and weird veins and green eyes? What the hell happened to him?

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

Going by the trailer it looks like Constantine finds out about Flashpoint, Which is kinda cool, ending the dcamu saga where it began. So I’m guessing they’ll use time travel to bring everyone back. Seems like the kind of story maybe should have been a 2 parter. 
I’d be sad if this version of Dick is gone for good though. He was pretty solid, even if stuff like his stint as Batman and dynamic with Damian didn’t quite live up to the source material.



> I don't watch the movies, but it's JLD and New Gods. I'm imagining there might be some magic and/or mind f**kery involved too. That might actually be a hallucination, Evil Factory clone, illusion, who the hell knows.
> 
> Or, much more likely, it's a blood bath early on to show how dire things are and a whole ton of people, including Dick, are going to die.
> 
> Is that Superman with the beard and weird veins and green eyes? What the hell happened to him?


I’m also wondering what happened to him. Kryptonite or something? Looks like he’ll be wearing Luthor’s armor.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Going by the trailer it looks like Constantine finds out about Flashpoint, Which is kinda cool, ending the dcamu saga where it began. So I’m guessing they’ll use time travel to bring everyone back. Seems like the kind of story maybe should have been a 2 parter. 
> I’d be sad if this version of Dick is gone for good though. He was pretty solid.
> 
> 
> I’m also wondering what happened to him. Kryptonite or something? Looks like he’ll be wearing Luthor’s armor.


I'm thinking something along the lines of what happened to New52 Supes leading into Rebirth. But that's just speculation on my part.

----------


## Frontier

> We should avoid DC next animated movie.
> 
> JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below
> 
> https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5


At least Damian seems to care...



> I don't watch the movies, but it's JLD and New Gods. I'm imagining there might be some magic and/or mind f**kery involved too. That might actually be a hallucination, Evil Factory clone, illusion, who the hell knows.
> 
> Or, much more likely, it's a blood bath early on to show how dire things are and a whole ton of people, including Dick, are going to die.
> 
> Is that Superman with the beard and weird veins and green eyes? What the hell happened to him?


*spoilers:*
Darkseid brands him with Kryptonite, so he doesn't have his powers.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick getting killed or maimed in some story? I'm shocked. SHOCKED. 
> 
> Well not that shocked, lol.


To be fair most everyone is dying the first act

----------


## WonderNight

Question is the robin 80th anniversary issue coming out with a new Grayson story this Wednesday? Because hell yes I miss that book so much.

I'm sorry but but dc needs to make nightwing into a globetrotting action adventure hero. Make the entire DCU his city.

Nightwing in a city (any city) just feels limited to me. Nightwing feels like he should be so much bigger to me, like nightwing in a isolated city feels like DC give him one thousand dollars for vacation but nightwing the globetrotting hero feels like nightwing with a billion dollars for vacation.  The sky's the limit.

----------


## Digifiend

No. It's out next week.
https://www.newsarama.com/48839-robi...ed-a-week.html

----------


## agentofthebat

Is he going back to Dick Grayson yet?

----------


## Godlike13

They are still milking it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> We should avoid DC next animated movie.
> 
> JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below
> 
> https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5


His voice actor wasn't listed in the initial IMDB cast. I don't mind him being killed when he's not advertised as part of the main cast.

----------


## Elmo

> Is he going back to Dick Grayson yet?


as of May 2020 solicits he is still Ric Grayson but in the process of reestablishing his identity as Dick, if it even happens

----------


## Elmo

> We should avoid DC next animated movie.
> 
> JusticeLeagueDark: Apokalips War spoilers below
> 
> https://imgur.com/mqK7mq5


Avoid this movie because Dick Grayson dies? Doesn't everyone in it die anyway?

----------


## Drako

> Avoid this movie because Dick Grayson dies? Doesn't everyone in it die anyway?


i don't know, it's not out yet.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Question is the robin 80th anniversary issue coming out with a new Grayson story this Wednesday? Because hell yes I miss that book so much.
> 
> I'm sorry but but dc needs to make nightwing into a globetrotting action adventure hero. Make the entire DCU his city.
> 
> Nightwing in a city (any city) just feels limited to me. Nightwing feels like he should be so much bigger to me, like nightwing in a isolated city feels like DC give him one thousand dollars for vacation but nightwing the globetrotting hero feels like nightwing with a billion dollars for vacation.  The sky's the limit.


Which technically makes sense for him to have a job to do so. This is why you kind of need to explain where does he get his money? He can be a private I or Haleys circus

They tried that with him being a spy. And not matter how good a idea is the writing is the most important. Even if he works best traveling around it wont work if there is no try.

----------


## astro@work

> They are still milking it.


Yes if "milking it" means dragging out a universally hated storyline ad nauseum while readership erodes month after month.
(I dropped it from my pull list 9 months ago and swore I wouldn't pay for another issue until they restored my favorite character to something recognizable).

----------


## Rac7d*

> i don't know, it's not out yet.


He death is pretty tame compared to the ones that follow. So it’s not a nerf issue

----------


## xiyon

> Id be sad if this version of Dick is gone for good though. He was pretty solid, even if stuff like his stint as Batman and dynamic with Damian didnt quite live up to the source material.


If getting jobbed at every opportunity counts as pretty solid, we've truly sunk to a depressing low. Dick's greatest showing, imo, was in Bad Blood-- and even there he got thrashed by a mind-controlled Bruce; couldn't even put up a fight...

----------


## Drako

*NIGHTWING #73*
On sale June 17, 2020
The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwingand the plans hes set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Jokers mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, andhimself.
Written by DAN JURGENS
Art by RONAN CLIQUET
Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC

----------


## Frontier

> *NIGHTWING #73*
> On sale June 17, 2020
> The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwing—and the plans he’s set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Joker’s mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, and…himself.
> Written by DAN JURGENS
> Art by RONAN CLIQUET
> Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | DC


Jeez, how mind-controlled can one guy get?

----------


## dietrich

> Jeez, how mind-controlled can one guy get?


This comment made me laugh and bummed me out at the same time.

----------


## dietrich

> Avoid this movie because Dick Grayson dies? Doesn't everyone in it die anyway?


Pretty much. The universe is rebooting apparently

----------


## Godlike13

> *NIGHTWING #73*
> On sale June 17, 2020
> The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwing—and the plans he’s set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Joker’s mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, and…himself.
> Written by DAN JURGENS
> Art by RONAN CLIQUET
> Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | DC


Are they seriously repeating the same god damn story they just freaking told. Jesus, how lazy can a creative team be and how in gods name are they letting them get away with this. This is pathetic. Can’t wait for Red Condor to come out of nowhere and save the day again.

----------


## astro@work

> Are they seriously repeating the same god damn story they just freaking told. Jesus, how lazy can a creative team be and how in gods name are they letting them get away with this. This is pathetic. Can’t wait for Red Condor to come out of nowhere and save the day again.


Also, are they legitimately restoring Dick Grayson JUST IN TIME TO HAVE HIM MIND-CONTROLLED? What the literal F???? It's as if DC sat down and had a conference on how they could get fandom to revile one of their most beloved characters.

Then again, they've done it twice with Supergirl now (Red Lantern, then Hell Arisen)...and guess which book just got cancelled.

Ugh.

----------


## dropkickjake

Damnnnn

that comes out on my birthday.

happy birthday to me i guess.

----------


## BloodOps

Poor guy can't catch a break...

..and then this.

SPOILERS of course..

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9ZRb5aA...d=yflymfb30oqf

----------


## Frontier

> Poor guy can't catch a break...
> 
> ..and then this.
> 
> SPOILERS of course..
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B9ZRb5aA...d=yflymfb30oqf


At least it'll get undone by the end of the movie and he's not the only one.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Overall what should Nightwing’s status be? Should he be the leader when Bruce isn’t there? Yea he is his own hero but if you don’t symbol what his status is than you can never drawn that line.

----------


## Ansa

> *NIGHTWING #73*
> On sale June 17, 2020
> The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwingand the plans hes set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Jokers mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, andhimself.
> Written by DAN JURGENS
> Art by RONAN CLIQUET
> Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | DC


I guess after Bruce is done hitting all the Robins (Pretty sure there is going to be a punch in the next Teen Titans Annual) it's Dick's turn now to "communicate" with his loved ones.

----------


## WonderNight

> *NIGHTWING #73*
> On sale June 17, 2020
> The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwingand the plans hes set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Jokers mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, andhimself.
> Written by DAN JURGENS
> Art by RONAN CLIQUET
> Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | DC


lol you would think dick has learned to stay away from Gotham by now.

----------


## WonderNight

> Overall what should Nightwing’s status be? Should he be the leader when Bruce isn’t there? Yea he is his own hero but if you don’t symbol what his status is than you can never drawn that line.


Nightwing's not his own hero. Hell just look at who's logo is on his book.

----------


## Godlike13

> lol you would think dick has learned to stay away from Gotham by now.


 Does that matter. Same exact thing just happen to him in Bludhaven too.

----------


## Godlike13

Btw Nightwing 70 preview 
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03...ng-70-preview/

Its a typical no effort Nightwing preview. Long winded recap surrounding whatever generic art they can find for the month.

----------


## WonderNight

> Does that matter. Same exact thing just happen to him in Bludhaven too.


Oh I know it just funny that almost everytime dick steps foot in Gotham something terrible happens to him.

----------


## Badou

That Nightwing #73 solicit is so hilariously bad that I can't do anything but laugh, lol. I have no interest in this Joker War story. 

What a disaster this whole thing has been. It has been so amazingly awful but there are still people out there that think Jurgens is doing a good job on this book. I'll never understand that.

----------


## twiztor

Ric's still not sure which memories are real?
the Court of Owls implanted memories that he killed Bruce Wayne. Is Wayne alive? if yes, those memories are false. case closed.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ric's still not sure which memories are real?
> the Court of Owls implanted memories that he killed Bruce Wayne. Is Wayne alive? if yes, those memories are false. case closed.


We talked about it last issue, it is obvious which memories are real they are dragging him with the idiot stick.
If he has to sneak into a secret hideout of mysterious organization whose leader posed as his doctor then it’s clear where the truth is

----------


## Digifiend

Batman, Robin, and Batgirl all got mentioned on Coronation Street today (Wed 11 March). Roy Cropper even explained that Robin was Dick Grayson, the Boy Wonder.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Nightwing's not his own hero. Hell just look at who's logo is on his book.


I guess he never will sense he is really the most popular of the Robins. Plus Dc can’t write him. All I’m saying if Bruce is gone is he the next guy to lead and is that a bad thing?  By gone I mean sometimes Bruce goes away to other places to fight some of his villains. When it comes to Nightwing what should be boundaries when it comes having him in Batman books?

----------


## dropkickjake

> I guess he never will sense he is really the most popular of the Robins. Plus Dc cant write him. All Im saying if Bruce is gone is he the next guy to lead and is that a bad thing?  By gone I mean sometimes Bruce goes away to other places to fight some of his villains. When it comes to Nightwing what should be boundaries when it comes having him in Batman books?


I'd be more or less okay with Dick being treated as the heir apparent to Batman, second in command, most trusted lieutenant, et c if it was a role DC respected, but they don't. Also, as Dick has already had a run as batman, when creators want to do their own Bruce-incapacitate story, they want someone other than Dick so that they can do something new.

----------


## Restingvoice

> *NIGHTWING #73*
> On sale June 17, 2020
> The Joker knows Dick Grayson is Nightwing—and the plans he’s set in motion in will haunt Batman forever. Under the control of The Joker’s mysterious ally Punchline, Nightwing must battle the people he once loved most: Batgirl, the Robins, and…himself.
> Written by DAN JURGENS
> Art by RONAN CLIQUET
> Cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> Variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | DC


...
Same plot? 
Same plot. 
*Waves* Same plot!
*Points* Same plot!!
*yells* Same plot!
*Desk throw* Are you kidding me what?! this is like the fourth time his return is postponed and now just to make the same thing?! Even if it still hasn't beat the record of New 52 Superman getting brainwashed four times in two years to the point his death feels like a mercy kill, and it doesn't surprise me that they keep doing this because apparently this title still sells higher than other titles who has the hero not undergoing this thing, also after DC promoted 100 variant covers and Wedding Album for a wedding that's not happening I know there's no limit to their audacity, could you at least be a little more self-aware... no, cancel that... we already way past that line we can't even see it from here... could you at least dress him in Joker's color so he doesn't look like he's cosplaying Bucky using the wrong reference?!

----------


## Ascended

This book is just in a holding pattern until either 5G hits or the Bat-line gets a relaunch. It'll be summer at the earliest, if not fall, before DC changes gears. It's not even worth getting angry about anymore. In fact, it's almost impressive how DC has remained so intentionally deaf and intent on dragging this out no matter what the fans want. I mean, if it wasn't horrible business you'd almost have to admire how stubborn stupid they've been about Ric.

But I would really appreciate Jim Lee or someone dropping some information about their plans for Nightwing. Didio hated the character, but can we expect better from the new (sole) publisher? Or will Dick just be swept aside for 5G while someone else takes over the mantle?

----------


## Godlike13

Your right. I guess it’s just hard to accept there is just that little creative integrity with those on the book.

----------


## astro@work

> This book is just in a holding pattern until either 5G hits or the Bat-line gets a relaunch. It'll be summer at the earliest, if not fall, before DC changes gears. It's not even worth getting angry about anymore. *In fact, it's almost impressive how DC has remained so intentionally deaf and intent on dragging this out no matter what the fans want*. I mean, if it wasn't horrible business you'd almost have to admire how stubborn stupid they've been about Ric.
> 
> But I would really appreciate Jim Lee or someone dropping some information about their plans for Nightwing. Didio hated the character, but can we expect better from the new (sole) publisher? Or will Dick just be swept aside for 5G while someone else takes over the mantle?


This made me laugh, because it's so true. You DO almost have to congratulate DC on staying the course on one of the worst creative ideas in a long, long time.
No matter the fan outrage, drop in monthly numbers, and universal hatred for the Ric storyline, DC remains steadfast in telling the storyline nobody wants.
It's like watching a train head PROUDLY toward a cliff, monumentally confident in it's resolve!

----------


## Ascended

It's even more impressive when DC usually turns tail and runs as soon as any small amount of criticism is thrown their way. Like, people at DC panicked so hard they had to be hospitalized at the first negative mention of Bat-penis, but Ric? They won't be deterred from telling this brilliant and game changing story no matter how awful it is or how much money they lose! 

It really is almost commendable.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

There are some people DC has been consistent with not balking with. It’s still gets me how they rushed to remove Esquivel, yet they were pairing him with Lobdell LoL.

----------


## AmiMizuno

At this point they need to reboot him. Make all of this some nightmare. That all this Ric story was just him in a coma

----------


## Restingvoice

I just checked the wiki of Titans. There are only two series of Titans before the reboot? One with Raven and one without Raven? So they all lumped with Teen Titans wiki since the members are graduates of Teen Titans? 

Man, they're a lost cause. Since half of the popular members are former teen, former sidekick, and still using the same team name as the Teen version, it's a triple whammy of not being considered an independent adult.

----------


## WonderNight

> I just checked the wiki of Titans. There are only two series of Titans before the reboot? One with Raven and one without Raven? So they all lumped with Teen Titans wiki since the members are graduates of Teen Titans? 
> 
> Man, they're a lost cause. Since half of the popular members are former teen, former sidekick, and still using the same team name as the Teen version, it's a triple whammy of not being considered an independent adult.


the titans franchise is a teen/sidekick franchise. The only people who don't see that are titans generation fans

----------


## Digifiend

> I just checked the wiki of Titans. There are only two series of Titans before the reboot? One with Raven and one without Raven? So they all lumped with Teen Titans wiki since the members are graduates of Teen Titans? 
> 
> Man, they're a lost cause. Since half of the popular members are former teen, former sidekick, and still using the same team name as the Teen version, it's a triple whammy of not being considered an independent adult.


New Teen Titans eventually became just New Titans, so I'd say that counts as well. Also, there was actually two different Titans teams in the final pre-Flashpoint series. Originally it was a New Teen Titans reunion book, but after about a year it started falling apart, as Nightwing became Batman, and he and Donna both joined the Justice League. They ended up doing a few solo spotlight issues and then retooled it in issue 24 with a new team formed by Deathstroke.

----------


## Restingvoice

> New Teen Titans eventually became just New Titans, so I'd say that counts as well. Also, there was actually two different Titans teams in the final pre-Flashpoint series. Originally it was a New Teen Titans reunion book, but after about a year it started falling apart, as Nightwing became Batman, and he and Donna both joined the Justice League. They ended up doing a few solo spotlight issues and then retooled it in issue 24 with a new team formed by Deathstroke.


East, West, and Terror?

----------


## Digifiend

Not two at the same time. One replaced the other.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What's the point of having the same story told? I mean someone told me Jim hates Dick just has much. But I hope this writer was because these were due to before Dan left and things will get better.

----------


## Godlike13

My guess is Dick was suppose to come back at the end of the Talon arc, but then King got the boot and the new Bat writer came on board with this Joker event and they thought Dick’s return would add more weight to the event if they do it there. So rather then come up with a wholly new story they are recreating the same conditions as before so they can fill that time between then and the event, but then still do the same thing they more or less were gonna do at the end of the Talon arc. I’m also guessing that is why the upcoming annual has Dick back as Nightwing. Cause that lame Condor crap, with Dick just going back into his old suit to do same old same old, is what they originally were gonna do after the Talon arc. And unfortunately I believe it’s what we can look forward to after the Joker event now.

----------


## L.H.

I bet you're right. Issue #68 has two artist, Moore for only 8 pages, and Cliquet for the others. My thoughts were that the issue was a puzzle of different scenes, like Jurgens planned to do something, than got scraped and rewrote the battle. 
Tynion's run is going to end in july, right?

----------


## Digifiend

> My guess is Dick was suppose to come back at the end of the Talon arc, but then King got the boot and the new Bat writer came on board with this Joker event and they thought Dick’s return would add more weight to the event if they do it there. So rather then come up with a wholly new story they are recreating the same conditions as before so they can fill that time between then and the event, but then still do the same thing they more or less were gonna do at the end of the Talon arc. I’m also guessing that is why the upcoming annual has Dick back as Nightwing. Cause that lame Condor crap, with Dick just going back into his old suit to do same old same old, is what they originally were gonna do after the Talon arc. And unfortunately I believe it’s what we can look forward to after the Joker event now.


Then they should postpone that annual for six months.

----------


## Ascended

> What's the point of having the same story told? I mean someone told me Jim hates Dick just has much. But I hope this writer was because these were due to before Dan left and things will get better.


I don't know if I've ever seen Jim Lee mention Nightwing. No idea how he feels about the character, but he does seem to enjoy drawing the guy. So there's that, at least.

Didio has been gone for what, a month? It'll take time for any changes Lee makes as sole publisher to trickle down to the book shelves. Even if Lee is the biggest Nightwing fanboy you could ever imagine, comics take time to create and a change in plans requires even more time, since plans have to be dropped, new plans hatched, refined, approved, and then produced.

----------


## Drako

There is no evidence at all that he hates Nightwing.




> I don't know if I've ever seen Jim Lee mention Nightwing. No idea how he feels about the character, but he does seem to enjoy drawing the guy. So there's that, at least.


He said this five months ago, during NYCC.

I assure you, I will protect Nightwing at all costs.

https://twitter.com/aiptcomics/statu...694813704?s=21

----------


## Rac7d*

> There is no evidence at all that he hates Nightwing.
> 
> 
> 
> He said this five months ago, during NYCC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then let’s hold him to it

----------


## Ascended

> There is no evidence at all that he hates Nightwing.
> 
> 
> 
> He said this five months ago, during NYCC.
> 
> “I assure you, I will protect Nightwing at all costs.”
> 
> https://twitter.com/aiptcomics/statu...694813704?s=21


I'll take it. That is, no matter what, better than we've had for a long time.  :Big Grin: 

Of course, the real question is "protect him how?" Lee could "protect" Dick's role as Bruce's first and greatest sidekick and keep Dick tied to Bruce's hip. Or he could "protect" Nightwing by building him up as a solo IP with friends in Gotham and every other corner of the DCU.

But whether Dick is forced to stay in Gotham's orbit or gets to spread his wings and leave the nest (again) Lee "protecting" Dick is better than having Didio actively trying to put Dick's head on a pike.

I don't know what kind of publisher Lee is going to be. I fear he's going to have some of the same flaws Didio did, as far as creative outlook goes (mainly being too fond of the 90's). But I will sing the man's praises if he gives us quality Nightwing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. I hope after this storyline things go well for Dick. We get some better things coming his way. What writers should be on Nightwing

----------


## Drako

Dick'll probably go back to normal in issue 75, since Tynon said it would be during his run and it's a round number.

Let's see what's hold for him after that, i just want a good creative team with cool ideas.

----------


## Drako

Pretty cool video about the Robins with appearances of Marv Wolfman, Tim Seeley and others.

----------


## Ascended

> Dick'll probably go back to normal in issue 75, since Tynon said it would be during his run and it's a round number.


When does that hit? Aren't we rumored to get 5G in October or so?

----------


## Godlike13

> When does that hit? Aren't we rumored to get 5G in October or so?


August should be 75.

----------


## Ascended

> August should be 75.


Ah thanks. So maybe a few months of relative normalcy before 5G hits, assuming those plans aren't completely undone by Didio leaving. 

I'm very curious what that event is going to bring. Jon Kent as Superman? Luke Fox as Batman? Sure, whatever I guess? But what is it gonna do to guys like Dick? Even if there's a time skip he wouldn't be aged out of the role (unless it's a really big skip anyway). So him and his peers are going to be older and more experienced than the League, but they won't be the League? Where are they gonna fit?

I sort of expect Didio wanted them written out, but with him gone and Lee in charge? I can't wait to get title announcements and see what the hell this thing is actually going to be.

----------


## Godlike13

I think Badou called it, with Jurgan's bringing his Beyond stuff to fruition. And while yes i know 5G is suppose to bring an influx of new creators, i think Nightwing will none the less remain a fodder book for Jurgans.

----------


## Ascended

> I think Badou called it, with Jurgan's bringing his Beyond stuff to fruition. And while yes i know 5G is suppose to bring an influx of new creators, i think Nightwing will none the less remain a fodder book for Jurgans.


Entirely possible. 

We'll see if Jim Lee is as good as his word about protecting Nightwing. I feel like, with 5G on the horizon and even that getting changed and altered, we can't really be sure of much right now.

Though to be fair to Lee, if changes are made concerning Nightwing it might take time to enact. It's possible Jurgens might remain on the book short term as a placeholder while Lee arranges for something else. I'll give the man some time; comics aren't made overnight. If plans are changing it'll take time to hit the shelves, but by year's end I think we'll have our answer about how Lee views the property and what value he ascribes to it.

----------


## Badou

I honestly don't think Lee cares one way or another. He isn't concerned with what a mid to low-mid selling book about an ancillary Batman character does and isn't changing any plans to accommodate the the character. He thinks about more important things and probably even thinks they are doing find by the character currently because he has nothing invested in him. I think his comments months ago was just him placating fans because someone asked him a question about the character, and in reality Nightwing's book and situation isn't something he concerns himself with at all. He's shown zero evidence of caring about or protecting the character to this point, so I don't know why that would suddenly change.

----------


## Godlike13

Didio did a good job positioning himself as a lighting rod, but a lot of this falls under the purview of to DC’s EiC and more directly the current Bat office.

----------


## Ascended

> I honestly don't think Lee cares one way or another. He isn't concerned with what a mid to low-mid selling book about an ancillary Batman character does and isn't changing any plans to accommodate the the character. He thinks about more important things and probably even thinks they are doing find by the character currently because he has nothing invested in him. I think his comments months ago was just him placating fans because someone asked him a question about the character, and in reality Nightwing's book and situation isn't something he concerns himself with at all. He's shown zero evidence of caring about or protecting the character to this point, so I don't know why that would suddenly change.


Well, I've talked about this from the business end a whole lot, and nobody needs to read all of that again. I'll just say that, with the limited information we have access to, and not knowing the unique quirks of this particular industry, I can see plenty of business reasoning to invest in the IP. 

Now, since we don't have all the data there could certainly be variables that prove my assessment wrong. And I can't completely rule out my own bias unduly coloring my judgement (though if I've let it, my professors would kick my ass; they taught me better). But knowing what we know? I can make a hell of an argument.

Now, even if I'm right that doesn't mean anything will change. Didio's gone but Harras is still around, and words are cheap so we'll have to wait for Jim Lee's actions to know if he's actually going to protect the character (whatever that means). 

But I do think we have 3 reasons to have a little hope.

Didio's gone. Like Godlike says, he always took the heat for everything even if it wasn't his fault, but in this case? I don't think he was protecting anyone else. Harras or whoever may agree with him, but Didio was definitely a major reason Dick got treated so poorly in recent years and I've never found a business theory or structure that supports it. With him gone, that's at least one roadblock out of the way. 

Between Didio being fired and the 5G initiative, AT&T is actually paying attention to the publishing right now. Normally this stuff is too small for them to care about, but right now they're actually looking at what the comics do. And if these guys aren't taking the opportunity to do cost and market analysis I will eat my best hat. So if I'm right about the IP having more profit potential, AT&T will see it too and I doubt they'll be cool with the publishing letting money slip through their fingers because management has a hair across their ass. Even if it's a minuscule amount of money compared to what AT&T usually deals with, no business lets a penny slip through their fingers that they don't have to.

And tying it all together is Lifford. She's in charge of all things DC and is supposed to encourage cross market synergy and maximize brand recognition. Now, we know Nightwing is all over larger media and does well there. We know that in comics (discounting the current mess) he's got a high sales floor, some of the most consistent sales in the industry, and tons of pedigree. Wouldn't take much for Lifford to decide Nightwing has value and tell DC to push him more. 

I've said in the past that all Dick needs is for someone above DC's management to take notice. Right now the guys above DC are actually looking at the publishing. If they're gonna notice, it'll happen now. Of course, whatever happens it'll be months before we see the result. But right now I think we've got reason to have a little hope.

----------


## Drako

Dick has four stories in the Robin Special.

----------


## Digifiend

Dick's debut... and he *killed* some crooks!
https://www.cbr.com/robin-the-boy-wonder-killer-debut/

----------


## AmiMizuno

We know that 5G is going to be changing slightly so who knows. Also, do you guys think Dick will appear in Harley Quinn?

----------


## Rac7d*

Comic book stores will be closed on wensday

----------


## Godlike13

Mine will still be open. I suggest people check before hand though.

----------


## Digifiend

> Comic book stores will be closed on wensday


Some will, not all. In New York, Forbidden Planet is shut, but JHU and Midtown will be open.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/03...ics-stay-open/

I certainly think the piracy websites will be seeing extra traffic due to people not being able to pick up their pulls but not wanting to wait to read the comics or pay a second time for them.

----------


## Rac7d*

I love the previews

----------


## Drako

Hey, Dick just paid a visit here to my city.





https://screenrant.com/dc-robin-spec...campaign=SR-TW[

----------


## WonderNight

> Hey, Dick just paid a visit here to my city.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://screenrant.com/dc-robin-spec...campaign=SR-TW[


Agent 37! Man I miss that book so much.

----------


## Timber Wolf-By-Night

> I'm very curious what that event is going to bring. Jon Kent as Superman? Luke Fox as Batman? Sure, whatever I guess? But what is it gonna do to guys like Dick? Even if there's a time skip he wouldn't be aged out of the role (unless it's a really big skip anyway). So him and his peers are going to be older and more experienced than the League, but they won't be the League? Where are they gonna fit?


Sounds like the Justice Society.  And we know what happened to them first chance Didio had.

----------


## Se7en

That Agent 37 preview was great. Man, what a step down Nightwing was. Would be cool if he becomes a Spy again but i won't hold my breath :/

----------


## Ascended

> Agent 37! Man I miss that book so much.


Right? So good! My son and I just started watching Young Justice season 3 again (nobody is going too far these next few weeks, need some way to pass the time) and between that show and this preview....man, I'm missing my awesome badass super spy Grayson right now.




> Sounds like the Justice Society.  And we know what happened to them first chance Didio had.


I doubt Didio planned on the Titans generation having even as much presence as the JSA did. But Didio is gone, plans are changing, and the industry might very well find itself with some extra lead time, if distribution shuts down like everyone else. So who knows what we'll actually get come this fall? The odds might still be slim that anything substantially better will happen for Nightwing, but those odds are better now than they were a few months ago, and I'm gonna hope for the best.

----------


## Digifiend

> the industry might very well find itself with some extra lead time, if distribution shuts down like everyone else.


Even if print distribution stops, nothing's stopping digital releases continuing on schedule.

----------


## WonderNight

> That Agent 37 preview was great. Man, what a step down Nightwing was. Would be cool if he becomes a Spy again but i won't hold my breath :/


Tell me about man. I love nightwing but outside of the name and costume it has nothing. Grayson gives dick an entire genre and corner of the DCU to play with. So much potential.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Tell me about man. I love nightwing but outside of the name and costume it has nothing. Grayson gives dick an entire genre and corner of the DCU to play with. So much potential.


That whole corner has been co-opted by Bendis and Leviathan.

----------


## WonderNight

> That whole corner has been co-opted by Bendis and Leviathan.


well I never said dick would own the corner I said play in it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So get rid of Nightwing everyone is saying? Can't he both be Nightwing and a Spy? I mean Nightwing is more popular than having him be a spy. There are already too many spies in the media in movies and in comics. What makes him stand out. I know the same can be said about him being a costumed hero. But still. You get the right person and it's easy.  The spy thing can just be bad in the wrong hands.  I mean Dick already has training in Espionage. So really he can be a spy with or without working for an agency. I mean wasn't be doing that in Young Justice? Using Haley's Circus as a cover to look around?

----------


## WonderNight

> So get rid of Nightwing everyone is saying? Can't he both be Nightwing and a Spy? I mean Nightwing is more popular than having him be a spy. There are already too many spies in the media in movies and in comics. What makes him stand out. I know the same can be said about him being a costumed hero. But still. You get the right person and it's easy.  The spy thing can just be bad in the wrong hands.  I mean Dick already has training in Espionage. So really he can be a spy with or without working for an agency. I mean wasn't be doing that in Young Justice? Using Haley's Circus as a cover to look around?


He should be a spy as nightwing.

And so what if nightwing is more popular, it's most as a support character to batman and dick as robin is more popular than both. So should he go back to Robin?

Yes there are alot of spy's in media (because it's a cool concept) but how many of them has the crazy DCU as there playground?

The argument that Grayson or nightwing as a spy doesn't work because it could be bad in the wrong hands so why bother. I dont get that argument. You can say that about nightwing (I mean ric grayson anyone) superman, batman, wonder woman, justice league any book. Should dc not push those characters and book also or its just Grayson it has that problem.

Grayson is just better than nightwing.

----------


## Drako

DC will not get rid of Nightwing and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Nightwing #70:
*spoilers:*
Joker got that crystal macguffin with Dicks memories. It's even more clear now that he'll get his memories back at the end of Joker War.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> DC will not get rid of Nightwing and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
> 
> Nightwing #70:
> *spoilers:*
> Joker got that crystal macguffin with Dicks memories. It's even more clear now that he'll get his memories back at the end of Joker War.
> *end of spoilers*


Wooww this is getting dragged to 2 yrs at this point. What did we do to deserve this

----------


## Ascended

> Even if print distribution stops, nothing's stopping digital releases continuing on schedule.


That's true. Production can be done from home, so I don't really see current events throwing a wrench into things as far as comics go, but you never know. But even then, 5G isn't supposed to hit until close to the end of the year, so any awful, Didio-fueled 5G plans for Dick could be changed before it hits the pages.




> Wooww this is getting dragged to 2 yrs at this point. What did we do to deserve this


We liked a character Didio didn't.

Oh, and put me down for "Nightwing: Super Spy" too. It's a great niche, DC barely does anything with it, and it fits Nightwing nicely. I don't know why DC backed off the idea. I get putting him back in costume; that was necessary, but dumping the entire spy angle seems like a massive waste.

----------


## WonderNight

> DC will not get rid of Nightwing and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
> 
> Nightwing #70:
> *spoilers:*
> Joker got that crystal macguffin with Dicks memories. It's even more clear now that he'll get his memories back at the end of Joker War.
> *end of spoilers*


When did I say dc should get rid of nightwing? I said nightwing should be more than a name and costume. But I guess alot of fans them some over glorified sidekick status quos.

----------


## Godlike13

The only thing worse then actually having read the inexcusable lazy trash of a story that is Ric, is having these bum writers explain it over and over every damn issue. I couldn’t imagine trying to read this lazy trash in trade form.

Ugh, anyway the issue was just more of moving at a snails pace. Most of the issue consists of telling readers the story so far, from Ric, to Talon, to the crystal. There is only like 4 pages that actually moves the plot along. Which is more or less how every issue under Jurgans goes.

----------


## Gotham citizen

> The only thing worse then actually having read the inexcusable lazy trash of a story that is Ric, is having these bum writers explain it over and over every damn issue. I couldn’t imagine trying to read this lazy trash in trade form.
> […]


Like Joker said: «If you have to explain a joke, there's no joke!»

----------


## Godlike13

The Robin anniversary on the other hand, I loved it. It was more the story of Nightwing then of Robin. I have to give it to them, the way it was set up and presented was well done. And I’ve been hard on all those years at one time or another, but I thought they did a cool job a presenting a snapshot of Nightwing and Dick’s progression from the days of Wolfman to Seeley/Grayson. Which was hilarious btw.

----------


## bearman

Finally, Dick is allowed to grow up and leave in a respectful, loving manner.
Make this cannon, and leave it be.

----------


## Drako

> When did I say dc should get rid of nightwing? I said nightwing should be more than a name and costume. But I guess alot of fans them some over glorified sidekick status quos.


I don't agree with the view of him being a glorified sidekick, but I also think he should be more than a name and costume and need a clear direction after the Ric mess.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Diana has been having trouble for tears. So has Dick. This is why I feel going to the basics are important. Not just throwing him in random stuff. That’s what helped Diana. 


He can literally be a spy on his own without being in a group. Dc has already put in in so many. What would be so wrong for him to just go undercover as a spy with information he gets. He already allowed how to get information without being a costume. I’m just terrible. He is in Batfam and other things. Can’t he just do his own thing like begin a Private id meeting him go undercover and other spy elements 

It’s not that it’s the sidekick. Italics just Dc has been abusing him and messing him up. So to just throw the spy thing doesn’t feel like it helps when the next writer will screw him up. 


Here is the things that need to be answered  

what is his status in the Batfam

What should his status be in Dc.
What are his skills 
why do you love Dick? 
What makes him stand out?

----------


## K. Jones

This week in Nightwing featured another issue of some of the lowest of the lows since the Rickening. It's not even that there isn't some sort of an interesting premise going on in there. On paper if you were to write out the "Ric Saga" as a list of bullet points for story concepts, none of it would be outright bad. Just the mix of really, really stock tropes, lack of defining moments or interesting character beats, same old same old type plotting and usage of dudes like Joker in ancillary books, plus the fact it's a direction we were all sick of the first day. And unremarkable art that isn't selling the concept. Just all in all bad execution.

Which is why I grinned ear to ear reading a good and proper brand new "missing" half-chapter, of GRAYSON.

I'll get more into the Robin 85 Special in all the various appropriate places, but man there was a lot to love in that book, from creative teams, to punchy story length and solid historical framework and self-referencing. A missing mini-issue of Grayson ... a Titans story about Dick's mastery of disguise that works with late 90s/early 20s canon well but also sets up for the swish the transition into Grayson chapter. A missing Tim Drake short that's basically just a prologue to Tynion's Detective run. A mini-chapter of Damian that's literally tying into something interesting happening with him ongoing presently. A lovely coda for the "Same Age" era of the Super Sons. I want all of these things to be effortlessly slipped into Omnibuses and Collections.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How good is the 80t anniversary?

----------


## bearman

Surprisingly good.
Agent 37 was great, actually.

----------


## Digifiend

> He can literally be a spy on his own without being in a group. Dc has already put in in so many. What would be so wrong for him to just go undercover as a spy with information he gets. He already allowed how to get information without being a costume. I’m just terrible. He is in Batfam and other things. Can’t he just do his own thing like begin a Private id meeting him go undercover and other spy elements


Heck, the Agent 37 story wasn't the only one in which he was a spy! *spoilers:*
In the Titans story, he's infiltrated HIVE.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## OBrianTallent

I really miss Dick as Agent 37.  That was a great run.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Heck, the Agent 37 story wasn't the only one in which he was a spy! *spoilers:*
> In the Titans story, he's infiltrated HIVE.
> *end of spoilers*


I don't mind if he is a spy. Rather why does he have to be it in an agency and not on his own? He works as a Private Detective. So he makes money and can work into spy elements. It's just we have him in many groups. Why not solo on his own. I rather have it is he is someone they call  to be agent 37 or he can pick cases from them when it becomes 37.

----------


## Fergus

It's been a while since I've read great Dick Grayson stories. I enjoyed all of the stories.

It was a nice touch having the stories celebrated the various stages of his 80 years in publication. I only wish they had a 5th one with Batman and Robin. I don't mind though. Robin, Nightwing, Titans and Agent 37 are all his. A reminder that Dick Grayson is a solid and versatile whose contribution to the world of comics is up there with the best.

Happy Birthday Grayson.

----------


## millernumber1

The King/Seeley, Dixon, and Wolfman stories were all really delightful. The Devin Grayson story was fun, but the ending felt a bit too implausible - wish Dick had swung away to lend it a bit more credibility. Seeing Grayson as a mentor, with the King-style repetition of subverted advice, and the heartfelt twist at the end was so good, plus Janin and Cox were so beautiful on art again.

----------


## Restingvoice

It's nice to see those legs again. I think I mentioned in a thread, not about Dick Grayson's sexy legs, but I brought it up anyway because I'm like that... that I don't mind if the old costume is back in canon if I can see those again.  

Oh someone asked about spy Nightwing in costume, the Titans story shows that. It even feels very Grayson-like in the way the story is told, and Nightwing's attitude.

----------


## Jackalope89

I enjoyed the stories told.

And seriously, I did a double take when I realized Tom Kind wrote Nightwing there. Such a different, and better, tone then about most of his Batman run was.

----------


## dropkickjake

okay holy cow that Robin anniversary special was fantastic. Every Dick story was good. The Grayson one was absolutely incredible. Not the best story ever told, but boy howdy did it do well what grayson did will.

Also, I thought it was interesting that they showed Dick's progression towards agent 37 and then stopped there. Sure, with a character that has as much history as Dick, you're going to have to leave some stuff out (like his time as batman), but I think its worth noting that they didn't push masked hero of Bludhaven: Nightwing as his fully developed state. Interesting at least.

----------


## Ascended

Man, I can't wait to read this. Probably gonna be a while, regretfully, but the special sounds excellent. And Dick seems to have gotten far better treatment than I was expecting.

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think for the first time there is going to be no Dick Grayson in the Harley animated series. Batgirl and Dick around age range . So it’s interesting to see. I guess she is in college.

----------


## Ascended

What animated series?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Harley Quinn animated series

----------


## Mr. White

Just read the "Grayson" story in the Robin special and my did it open up old wounds.
Great story (true to the core of the character) fantastic art.
Serves as a painful reminder of what we (and DC) had.
Will give anything for a *Superboy Punch* and we get back to the Grayson era.

----------


## Ascended

> Harley Quinn animated series


Oh right, Batgirl is showing up there.

Man, I can't wait for that to hit blu-ray. I've watched so many clips online I've probably seen the whole damn show now, but the day the blu-ray is in stores I'm buying it. I'll even risk going out in public to get it on release day!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And who's to say Nightwing won't make a cameo at some point as well?

----------


## WonderNight

> Just read the "Grayson" story in the Robin special and my did it open up old wounds.
> Great story (true to the core of the character) fantastic art.
> Serves as a painful reminder of what we (and DC) had.
> Will give anything for a *Superboy Punch* and we get back to the Grayson era.


Tell me about it. Grayson is so awesome!

But here's the thing, we can have grayson as nightwing! Nightwing can take the best elements from Grayson. Dick can pass bludhaven to Cassandra like at the end of pre-new 52 where Cassandra made bludhaven her new home. Or to stephanie, tim or Kate and dick moves on or still live in bludhaven as a home to rest.

Now Nightwing would be free to have Grayson style adventures as nightwing.

Nightwing should have these 3 Grayson style elements.
1)globetrotting 
2)espionage 
3)regular team ups

You add those elements from grayson into nightwing and we'd have something special like Grayson again without losing nightwing.

Nightwing has the name and costume, but Grayson has the status quo and direction. Put them together and you've got YJ'O Nightwing!

----------


## Mr. White

> Tell me about it. Grayson is so awesome!
> 
> But here's the thing, we can have grayson as nightwing! Nightwing can take the best elements from Grayson. Dick can pass bludhaven to Cassandra like at the end of pre-new 52 where Cassandra made bludhaven her new home. Or to stephanie, tim or Kate and dick moves on or still live in bludhaven as a home to rest.
> 
> Now Nightwing would be free to have Grayson style adventures as nightwing.
> 
> Nightwing should have these 3 Grayson style elements.
> 1)globetrotting 
> 2)espionage 
> ...


This sounds like a capital idea, save for the regular team-ups. I prefer my comic protagonists to live in their world with their own (non-hero) supporting cast. Just a personal preference. 
That said I reckon so long as Dick as in the Nightwing suit he'll be associated (by DC mainly) with Batman/ Gotham/ Bludhaven. 
Which is ironic because his graduation to Nightwing signified moving out of Batman's shadow.
While there have been great interactions/relashionships with Damian and Alfred (I'm aware he was killed off); I'd sacrifice those to have Dick stay far far *far* away from anything Bat related.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean it technically is important to have some connections to Batfam. He was raised by Bruce. This is why I feel him going back to the Haley Circus make sense. He has the money and still can spy around. However, we don’t need to pass Bludhaven to anyone. Why not have it be Blüdhaven is safe city mostly. If Dick is somewhat Clarke and Bruce in a sense. Why not have Bludhaven be more like Metropolis.

Or at least a job that is possible. For example, stuntman or a PI

----------


## WonderNight

> This sounds like a capital idea, save for the regular team-ups. I prefer my comic protagonists to live in their world with their own (non-hero) supporting cast. Just a personal preference. 
> That said I reckon so long as Dick is in the Nightwing suit he'll be associated (by DC mainly) with Batman/ Gotham/ Bludhaven. 
> Which is ironic because his graduation to Nightwing signified moving out of Batman's shadow.
> While there have been great interactions/relashionships with Damian and Alfred (I'm aware he was killed off); I'd sacrifice those to have Dick stay far far *far* away from anything Bat related.


Ok semi-regular team ups :Cool: .

Yeah the problem with dick primarily being associated Batman/ Gotham/ Bludhaven is that it defeats the whole point of him becoming Nightwing in the first place.

Nightwing needs to be more than just another bat.

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean it technically is important to have some connections to Batfam. He was raised by Bruce. This is why I feel him going back to the Haley Circus make sense. He has the money and still can spy around. However, we don’t need to pass Bludhaven to anyone. Why not have it be Blüdhaven is safe city mostly. If Dick is somewhat Clarke and Bruce in a sense. Why not have Bludhaven be more like Metropolis.
> 
> Or at least a job that is possible. For example, stuntman or a PI


It's because Batman has a city (the most famous one) is one of the main reasons why Nightwing struggles. If the bat franchise are LA Lakers and batman is shaq having nightwing be a mini shaq makes him very redundant. So let him be Kobe! Play a different position so they both can shine.

When you have Batman in Gotham/ Nightwing in Bludhaven is pointless to DC.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Sorry. When I speak of Bludhaven someone said Bludhaven should be passed to Cassie Cain. I was saying no need just let it fade away. Dick going there from time to time for other things. Dick is mainly on the road or the circus. Haley Circus is a perfect for. One idea I have is this. Haley Circus works with smaller circuses around the world. So for a long time Haley and other circuses host large events in many countries. This way Dick can search around. The thing is how is Dick going to look around for crimes? Than again it’s not hard for him to research places and in the time.

----------


## bearman

Bruce is indisputably Dick’s mentor. And he rescued, and raised him.

He should always be a big part of Dick’s life. Many of us have had mentors... don’t we call them, have lunch, ask for advice?
But that don’t show up at our workplace.

Dick should stay tight with Bruce, but Nightwing should not rely on Batman. I’d love to see a close relationship between these brothers, but Nightwing should work his cases alone.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Bruce is indisputably Dick’s mentor. And he rescued, and raised him.
> 
> He should always be a big part of Dick’s life. Many of us have had mentors... don’t we call them, have lunch, ask for advice?
> But that don’t show up at our workplace.
> 
> Dick should stay tight with Bruce, but Nightwing should not rely on Batman. I’d love to see a close relationship between these brothers, but Nightwing should work his cases alone.



I agree. I 100% agree. This is why I kind of time issue with him having romantic relationships with Babs. Ot kind of ties him more to Bruce’s side.  Anyone the most important thing is when makes a global traveling hero. Where does he get the money? A PI or Circus? Or maybe working as a stuntman?

If any of you were the editor for Nightwing would you limit how often he appeara in Batman events? I wouldn’t mind if he and Bruce would hanging out or something simple. It’s just that they often use Dick since he is more skilled.

----------


## Restingvoice

We know that DC likes to interrupt on Dick's life, but has there ever been a character development regression? Specifically character development, not outside influence like someone shooting him or bombing his city

Anti New 52 Dick or Grayson says he's been depicted as less smart, boxed into The Charming One or The Sexy One, but is there anything before that?

----------


## Mr. White

> Bruce is indisputably Dick’s mentor. And he rescued, and raised him.
> 
> He should always be a big part of Dick’s life. Many of us have had mentors... don’t we call them, have lunch, ask for advice?
> But that don’t show up at our workplace.
> 
> Dick should stay tight with Bruce, but Nightwing should not rely on Batman. I’d love to see a close relationship between these brothers, but Nightwing should work his cases alone.


You are a 110% correct...*factually*.

That said in the context we're discussing and in relation to the character (Batman) involved; there is no way his involvement would not overshadow and/or interrupt Grayson's progress/ development/ direction/ book. 

Batman is DC's cash cow due to his popularity. Fact. 
His presence in comics is always hyped up for sales. It's what it is. I mean the mere existence of a Bat Family of 20+ characters lends truth to this... 
I mean at one point there were debates as to Black Canary being classified as a BatFam character. Like why?? Yes I know BoP is/was run by a former Batgirl but still... Stop it!

(Sorry mini-rant over)

I care way too much about Grayson to have Batman show up. Even the Grayson series I didn't like the fact that he was "undercover for Batman" but I lived with it. Mainly because his presence was limited albeit, still found it an interuption. Don't get me wrong I do like Bats (though if I'm honest earlier renditions more than the "modern" take) but he is an interuption. 

This is why I say he should stay far away from them. I like the interactions with some of the BatFam but because a connection to one is a connection to Bats himself...I'd rather there isn't one. Or at least limit it to a page every 5-7 issues and only apearing on a screen to ask about how the family is doing...

Grayson was a good series and started finding (arguably "found") its feet. It had the potential to carve a niche in the spy sector of the DCU but of course...DC dropped the ball.

^^ Just my take of course.

----------


## Mr. White

> I agree. I 100% agree. This is why I kind of time issue with him having romantic relationships with Babs. Ot kind of ties him more to Bruce’s side.  Anyone the most important thing is when makes a global traveling hero. *Where does he get the money?* A PI or Circus? Or maybe working as a stuntman?
> 
> *His working for Spyral was good. I mean it's like asking where Bond gets his money.
> That said I do get you and because of Bendis and Event Leviathan (another muck up in my view), a job will be necessary.
> The only issue is a job often requires you to stay in one place.*  
> 
> If any of you were the editor for Nightwing would you limit how often he appeara in Batman events? I wouldn’t mind if he and Bruce would hanging out or something simple. It’s just that they often use Dick since he is more skilled.


*"Yes. Yes. A Hundred Times Yes."
Funnily enough I would be more ok with Bruce showing up now and again. Just not Batman.
Dick's interaction with the BatFam in their civvies is tolerable.*

----------


## Godlike13

I said this before about Titans, but same is true for Batman. When they are cultivating readers to want Dick nowhere near Batman they are obviously doing something very wrong. And it’s not like like readers are wrong to want that, thats just a testament to how destructive the situation they created is. Somthing is very wrong when the character’s relationship to franchises like Batman and Titans are fairly being viewed as destructive to character by fans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If you guys were the editor of Nightwing are there any rules? Will you limited him doing crossovers with Batman ? I don’t mind Batman showing up. What will you reboot or keep cannon?

----------


## Rac7d*

Happy birthday dick grayson

----------


## Ascended

> If you guys were the editor of Nightwing are there any rules? Will you limited him doing crossovers with Batman ? I dont mind Batman showing up. What will you reboot or keep cannon?


It all stays canon. Some stuff (like Ric) would just never be mentioned ever again. But I'm not interested in doing a story all about how other stories suddenly didn't happen. That just reminds everyone how awful those stories were, and those are issues that could be dedicated to telling good stories instead of telling us how to pretend the bad ones never existed. Just ignore the stuff you don't want to deal with, don't shine a light on it while you tell readers to do what they're already going to do (ignore the bad stories). Retcons and reboots are a horrible idea 99.99% of the time, and it's not at all necessary for Dick.

As for rules? 

Dick gets treated as a solo character first, Bat adjunct second, Bat sidekick never. His book does not get derailed for someone else's title or story. A crossover is fine, if there's a good reason for Dick to be involved, but sh*t like what King pulled? Never again.

Nightwing no longer is forced to be Bat-lite. He gets developed into his own kind of character and hero, no longer forced to follow Bruce's blueprint. And whatever he gets developed into better be unique and different and offer something other DC books don't. 

He gets his emblem. I love the chevron as much as the next guy, but he needs a logo that can be sold on merchandise so the bird emblem that has been used in some larger media stuff (such as on Young Justice) gets brought in as a permanent part of his visual.

Past that? It'd largely be up to the creators to develop Nightwing. I have my own ideas of course, but as a hypothetical editor it's not my job to write the stories, just to help the creators tell their's in the best ways possible.

If I'm being honest, I'd probably try to push the Power Girl-Nightwing ship I'm such a fan of, but getting Dick onto solid ground he can call his own, and away from being nothing more than a sidekick for Batman, comes first.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Happy birthday dick grayson


Doesn’t he have multiple birthdays technically?


Also what’s woth the PG and Nightwing relationship? When did they get pair up?

----------


## Ascended

> Also what’s woth the PG and Nightwing relationship? When did they get pair up?


They never have. They've only actually interacted a handful of times (and flirted a bit during those interactions but nothing more serious than that). 

I got on this whole thing because I don't want Dick with Babs *or* Kori. I don't think those dynamics and relationships work anymore. I'd rather see all three move forward with their lives and I don't think, from the business or creative sides of things, either relationship benefits those involved either. 

So I figure it's time for a new ship. And while thinking of women who would fit the role, who would both be a benefit to Dick and benefit from being with him, Power Girl's name ended up at the top of my list. I have a ton of reasons, and have written long posts going over them a bunch of times so I won't bore everyone with them yet again. You can find my little essays in the old relationship and appreciation threads, or if you're really curious and actually care about my reasoning I can PM you.

All that said, there isn't much on the page to support it. They have only hung out a few times, after all. But I maintain that this would be good for both Dick and Karen Starr and even if they haven't hung out much in the past, everything has to start somewhere.

----------


## Aahz

> If you guys were the editor of Nightwing are there any rules? Will you limited him doing crossovers with Batman ? I dont mind Batman showing up. What will you reboot or keep cannon?


I wouldn't limit the crossovers, I like if you have some interaction between the different Batman characters. Back in the Dixon Era you had the charcters frequently show up in each others books, and that was imo the best era for the Batfamily.

The problem is, that the cross overs were often really poorly done past year. You have often the feeling that they put jut all the character in the event to have the complete set, but don't really have something to do for most of them.
Then the characters are often terribly written and what happens is often not in line with what happens in their own book, and sometimes they are just used to prop up the villain or another Batfamily member.

As a fan of Jason Todd I have now reached a point where I'm usually relieved if he is not in a cross over, and that shouldn't be the case (with Dick is is not that bad since there is imo roughly a 50% chance that he is treated decent in a cross over).

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. How about how often a crossover should happen? Another question is how should Bruce relationships with Dick be? For the most part Dick is the character everyone is cool with. Jason cares and doesn’t mind Dick.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay. How about how often a crossover should happen? Another question is how should Bruce relationships with Dick be? For the most part, Dick is the character everyone is cool with. Jason cares and doesnt mind Dick.


Once a year is fine.
They've pretty much been fine these past years. Unless Bruce is being sulky they're respectful and helpful... Before someone asks, I _always_ discount Ric arc... Even when he's sulky these days he doesn't punch anymore, just "hmm". That's acceptable for an introvert. That's normal.

----------


## Ascended

> Okay. How about how often a crossover should happen? Another question is how should Bruce relationships with Dick be? For the most part Dick is the character everyone is cool with. Jason cares and doesn’t mind Dick.


A full crossover, where the plots intersect, once every 18-24 months is enough, since it usually takes six issues for a single story these days. A simple guest cameo where someone stops by to visit for a single issue and doesn't derail the story? As much as makes sense really, as long as it's not every issue. 

I'd prefer for Dick and Bruce to be on relatively good terms. I think they likely disagree on plenty, and Dick could be used to voice the same concerns and counter-arguments Superman is sometimes used for, but I'd like to see Bruce and Dick move beyond their troubled past and, for the most part, get along relatively well. I want to see Dick call Bruce out on his bullsh*t, but I don't want to see them throwing punches at each other either.

----------


## Mr. White

> It all stays canon. Some stuff (like Ric) would just never be mentioned ever again. But I'm not interested in doing a story all about how other stories suddenly didn't happen. That just reminds everyone how awful those stories were, and those are issues that could be dedicated to telling good stories instead of telling us how to pretend the bad ones never existed. Just ignore the stuff you don't want to deal with, don't shine a light on it while you tell readers to do what they're already going to do (ignore the bad stories). Retcons and reboots are a horrible idea 99.99% of the time, and it's not at all necessary for Dick.
> 
> As for rules? 
> 
> Dick gets treated as a solo character first, Bat adjunct second, Bat sidekick never. His book does not get derailed for someone else's title or story. A crossover is fine, if there's a good reason for Dick to be involved, but sh*t like what King pulled? Never again.
> 
> Nightwing no longer is forced to be Bat-lite. He gets developed into his own kind of character and hero, no longer forced to follow Bruce's blueprint. And whatever he gets developed into better be unique and different and offer something other DC books don't. 
> 
> He gets his emblem. I love the chevron as much as the next guy, but he needs a logo that can be sold on merchandise so the bird emblem that has been used in some larger media stuff (such as on Young Justice) gets brought in as a permanent part of his visual.
> ...



Pretty much agree with this. Well like 99.99%.
Crossovers? Never. 
General premise? Graysonesque. Meaning globetrotting adventures, though not entirely of what the "Core" premise will be. 
Relationship? Either a civilian or an agent of something. Think a Sasha Bordeaux. Anyway, not a cape.
Homebase? Something similar to Metropolis. Essentially somewhere bright.
Guest stars? 1 every 12-15 issues.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Now skills. Often Dc has downplayed his abilities many times. What skills have they downplayed or just forgot about? What are his skills? What are his strengths and weakness?

----------


## Aahz

> A full crossover, where the plots intersect, once every 18-24 months is enough, since it usually takes six issues for a single story these days. A simple guest cameo where someone stops by to visit for a single issue and doesn't derail the story? As much as makes sense really, as long as it's not every issue.


Yeah I think that's what I would go for, too.




> Now skills. Often Dc has downplayed his abilities many times. What skills have they downplayed or just forgot about? What are his skills? What are his strengths and weakness?


I his stand out skill are acrobatics and leader ship (which is of course not that usable in a solo book), what they to often downplay are his detective skills and his ability to plan things.
Weakness is hard to say Batfamily members are usually pretty good at everything, based on older comics I would claim that he is really bad at coping with failures.

What they should ditch is this "improvising Swashbuckler" stuff (like in the Agent 37 Story from the Robin 80th Anniversary Book), thats imo as annoying as Tim taking down villains by pushing buttons and makes no sense when at the same time other Batfamily members are said to be to reckless.

----------


## Ascended

I definitely think "women" are a weakness for Dick. Not that he'd let a girl escape justice just because she bats her eyelashes at him or anything, but he definitely lowers his guard and lets himself get pulled into the plight of the bad girls.

He also lets himself get swept up easily in the emotion of the moment. How many times have we seen him go to have a serious talk with Kori and they just end up in bed? He sort of unknowingly misleads people at times because he stops thinking about "later" and just focuses on "right now."

He definitely struggles with guilt sometimes. We tend to think of Dick as the happy and well adjusted person in the Cave, but that dude can brood and angst with the best of them when he wants to. 

I dunno if I'd call it a "weakness," but Dick has developed some serious wanderlust over the years too. Guy moves around quite a bit, constantly changes jobs, etc. I know this is less the intentional development of his character and more a result of DC yanking him around, but intentional or not the end result is the same.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Now skills. Often Dc has downplayed his abilities many times. What skills have they downplayed or just forgot about? What are his skills? What are his strengths and weakness?


Since the Robins have been getting together more and more... it's used to be only Tim and Dick, and later Damian, but now they have Jason and all the extended family... writers, and DC have been boxing them, emphasizing their signature personality trait or ability, the difference they have to each other, for easy marketing.

So ignoring the other similar ability he has with the rest of the family, Dick is the sexy, charming, emotion-based one. The heart, jumping without a net, the improviser, and the funny one.  

So against Tim and Babs, his intelligence or detective skills are downplayed

Against Bruce and Babs, it's his seriousness, maturity, and fighting skills.
Bruce is obvious, he's the serious mentor and star character... but writers really don't like depicting Barbara as weaker, probably because of the history of female character treatment in media, so when someone's gonna take the fall of incompetency when both of them around, it's usually Dick.  

Against Damian and Jason, it's anger and willingness towards violence. This one's not that bad, because Dick's default personality is nice, but he's not above violence and threats. This is more often a fandom problem, that Dick becomes to The Nice and Soft Big Bro.

Speaking of nice... when Starfire is written to be this innocent all-loving alien girl, Dick is the violent one. Otherwise, when Starfire's written as a warrior princess, Dick is the restrainer. 

Oh. His status as The Nice One, as in, the one who listens, sometimes applies to the villains as well. This can make him comes off as naive. The Pure Hearted One.  

The one thing they, as far as I know, never take is his leadership ability. Even when Bruce's around, they have such a different approach to team leadership that they don't undermine each other. Bruce is the colder, businesslike one, ordering people around. Dick knows and respects the team, so the team follows him willingly.

His greatest strength is definitely his people skills, whether as a charmer, performer, leader, brother, friend, neighbor, savior or listener.   
His greatest weakness is taking burdens on his own. Self-blame. Since he likes to save or take care of others, he can neglect himself in the process, whether it's wounds, hygiene, or rest, and takes it really hard when he fails.

----------


## Jackalope89

Others have listed Dick's strengths. One of his weaknesses was getting along with Jason. Pre-New52, he and Jason weren't close. Especially compared to Dick with Tim and Damian. Even after coming back to life, pre or post New52, the two were never that close (though they had some good moments in the first Rebirth annual of Red Hood). 

Best I can say, before the "ric" thing, the two didn't hate one another and could work together. But were not exactly close.

----------


## Frontier

> Others have listed Dick's strengths. One of his weaknesses was getting along with Jason. Pre-New52, he and Jason weren't close. Especially compared to Dick with Tim and Damian. Even after coming back to life, pre or post New52, the two were never that close (though they had some good moments in the first Rebirth annual of Red Hood). 
> 
> Best I can say, before the "ric" thing, the two didn't hate one another and could work together. But were not exactly close.


I wouldn't call them "brothers," but Dick cared about Jason pre-New 52. He took his death hard when he found out about it in the New Teen Titans.

----------


## Zaresh

Dicks flaws are clear for me.

He has a bad, really mean streak when he's angered. He doesn't hold his mouth, and he can be really, really enraged. He can say really hurting stuff too, out or rage.

He's also too predisposed to decide for others what's best. And what's right and what's wrong. This applies for everyone, even his friends and team mates. He knows better, until he realizes he may have messed up.

He has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people.

He sometimes is too self-righteous, which is tied to the previous flaw.

And he can become too obtuse about certain stuff. It is how he thinks it is, and not any other way. I think he doesn't deal well with change either, but that may be just my bias.

I like Dick, just in case. He can be charming, and good and kind. But I've read him being an as××ole too, not too rarely.

Being self-sacrifying or taking burdens out of guilt aren't really much of a flaw. That pictures him under a good light, as much as it may hurt him. For a hero, I mean.

Edit: ok, so weaknesses. Yeah, self-blame and self-sacrifying oneself can be a weakness for a hero. Villains can even take advantadge of it, as it has happened in the comics, actually. Being vanilla human and jumping to help someone without many corncerns or thinking too much about it can be a weakness too. And that too has played against him before, I think.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Others have listed Dick's strengths. One of his weaknesses was getting along with Jason. Pre-New52, he and Jason weren't close. Especially compared to Dick with Tim and Damian. Even after coming back to life, pre or post New52, the two were never that close (though they had some good moments in the first Rebirth annual of Red Hood). 
> 
> Best I can say, before the "ric" thing, the two didn't hate one another and could work together. But were not exactly close.





> Dicks flaws are clear for me.
> 
> He has a bad, really mean streak when he's angered. He doesn't hold his mouth, and he can be really, really enraged. He can say really hurting stuff too, out or rage.
> 
> He's also too predisposed to decide for others what's best. And what's right and what's wrong. This applies for everyone, even his friends and team mates. He knows better, until he realizes he may have messed up.
> 
> He has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people.
> 
> He sometimes is too self-righteous, which is tied to the previous flaw.
> ...


So everybody was talking about weaknesses and you go with flaws. Jason fans always hamering the same  discourse "he has a mean streak" "he has a temper" "he is not close to Jason". Talking about assholes, it wasn't Dick the one that stood up in front of a burning city and laughed, of all Robins the only one that has ever been happy other are dead is Jason.

What are you even doing in this anyway thread?

----------


## Zaresh

> So everybody was talking about weaknesses and you go with flaws. Jason fans always hamering the same  discourse "he has a mean streak" "he has a temper" "he is not close to Jason". Talking about assholes, it wasn't Dick the one that stood up in front of a burning city and laughed.
> 
> What are you even doing in this anyway thread?


I tend to think that flaws are weaknesses. Sorry if my post was somehow offensive O.o.

Dick is my second fav character from the batfam. I didn't know that having one that I like more than him banned me from posting here :P

----------


## Rakiduam

> I tend to think that flaws are weaknesses. Sorry if my post was somehow offensive O.o.
> 
> Dick is my second fav character from the batfam. I didn't know that having one that I like more than him banned me from posting here :P


Sure...frankly I don't see how can you enjoy anything, if that is how you feel about a character you like.

----------


## Godlike13

People are still pissed about BFTC I see, LoL.

----------


## Zaresh

> Sure...frankly I don't see how can you enjoy anything, if that is how you feel about a character you like.


I enjoy flawed characters. They feel real, and symphathetic. I can relate to them and can enjoy their messes too when I don't (or getting mad at them: that's a way of enjoying it if you see them growing out of it). I don't like perfectly virtuous characters; they feel either unture or boring to me.

John Constantine is another of my faves, for example. And he's a character that I find myself getting mad at, sometimes, with the sh×t he pulls.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I enjoy flawed characters. They feel real, and symphathetic. I can relate to them and can enjoy their messes too when I don't (or getting mad at them: that's a way of enjoying it if you see them growing out of it). I don't like perfectly virtuous characters; they feel either unture or boring to me.
> 
> John Constantine is another of my faves, for example. And he's a character that I find myself getting mad at, sometimes, with the sh×t he pulls.


Funny, I have never thought of Dick or Constantine as weak characters, but perceptions depend a lot of the spectators too I guess.

----------


## WonderNight

> People are still pissed about BFTC I see, LoL.


Quick someone call kenan and kel because Aw, Here it goes  :Wink:

----------


## AmiMizuno

If we are just to use what DC gives us. His fighting skills are generally above any of the Robins or Batgirls. Thanks to his training and his upbringing. Yet Dc does drop it. Now detective hard to say. Tim is often stated to be the best. Babs is also. Yet Dick is often hard to say they go up and now. Yea I don't get why DC makes him a cheater or too naive. I mean given what he has seen he would be a little less naive. Now angry never often though him as having a bad angry issue. 

For the most part, since they generally have the Batfam have some issues with Bruce. It's Dick who is often the mediator. I hope when Ric situation is ended he and Jason can repair their relationship.

----------


## Zaresh

> Funny, I have never thought of Dick or Constantine as weak characters, but perceptions depend a lot of the spectators too I guess.


Flaws are weaknesses in the sense that they make the character more human. And they let them fall into emotional and personal struggles. Look at Rebirth Nightwing, for example, after Dick had the news about Shawn being pregnant. He panicqued a bit, which is just to be expected. But him telling her afterwards (when he already knew she wasn't expecting), that he was wondering if their kid would learn bad copying mechanisms from her instead of good from him, now, that was the nail to their relationship. I remember reading it and thinking "wew, Dick, you could've done much, much better that that. You're bassically calling her a rotten apple."

And it wasn't the only time I've found myself thinking that. I think reading NTT I thought the same once, regarding Kori. And maybe he has done something like that to Babs too, once or twice. And Tim in Red Robin, at the start of that book.

About Constantine, John's flaws are his biggest weakness. It's how he finds himself so much trouble, and how he finds himself so alone. Or, well, it was like that before New 52.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. I think a comic that shows the difference between Bruce and Dicks style of Crime fighting is imo Batman Adventures Vol.2 #12.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Flaws are weaknesses in the sense that they make the character more human. And they let them fall into emotional and personal struggles. Look at Rebirth Nightwing, for example, after Dick had the news about Shawn being pregnant. He panicqued a bit, which is just to be expected. But him telling her afterwards (when he already knew she wasn't expecting), that he was wondering if their kid would learn bad copying mechanisms from her instead of good from him, now, that was the nail to their relationship. I remember reading it and thinking "wew, Dick, you could've done much, much better that that. You're bassically calling her a rotten apple."


I really like that because it's a realistic flaw for someone who often in the position of good or righteousness, views himself as good or being viewed as good and right by other people. There's a danger of Arrogance, in this case, Nightwing has been a hero through and through and Shawn is a reformed villain, so _obviously_ if there's a bad influence, it will be hers, and it's something that can be said without thinking. 

Superman's had that streak too. When he's visiting Titans, he acts like such a mentor, trying to train the misfit kids when he knew nothing about the kids.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

That moment was extremely Dick Grayson, maybe more Dick than Dick had been since 2011. Dick is actually an asshole pretty often, even to people he loves. Sure, he's a great hero and leader, sure he's kind and compassionate, but yeah he's also pretty mean sometimes. That's what makes him human.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Has Dc ever been pushing his asshole  too much? Also how do you guys feel about Dick often is displayed as a Cheater? I don’t know they often have for it just for plot at times. i guess to never get him into any romantic relationship. I mean often Dick is the most stable. Yea he can brood but he often is calm. 

When Ric is over how should this play out? Can we just have Dick never remember this?

----------


## Godlike13

Dick can be a dick sure, and his world view beyond being a superhero is actually rather limited. But sometimes it’s ok to be a dick to someone. Jason fans explaining how he has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people, or is too self righteous. Well it’s not hard to read under the lines there LoL. Damian fans might disagree though. Even with Rebirth Nightwing and Shawn, his first instinct was the date her knowing she used to be a villain. For a time his supporting cast was even made up of ex-villains.

----------


## Godlike13

> Has Dc ever been pushing his asshole  too much? Also how do you guys feel about Dick often is displayed as a Cheater? I don’t know they often have for it just for plot at times. i guess to never get him into any romantic relationship. I mean often Dick is the most stable. Yea he can brood but he often is calm. 
> 
> When Ric is over how should this play out? Can we just have Dick never remember this?


He cheated one time. And there were particular circumstances to it.

----------


## Aahz

> I mean often Dick is the most stable.


Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...

----------


## Zaresh

> Dick can be a dick sure, and his world view beyond being a superhero is actually rather limited. But sometimes it’s ok to be a dick to someone. Jason fans explaining how he has prejudices and he's too quick to judge people, or is too self righteous. Well it’s not hard to read under the lines there LoL. Damian fans might disagree though. Even with Rebirth Nightwing and Shawn, his first instinct was the date her knowing she used to be a villain. For a time his supporting cast was even made up of ex-villains.


I wasn't even mentioning Jason here. He's a mess by himself, and that's actually something that most of us like about him: we see him struggling, we see him failing, and we see him still trying to make the best of himself despite of that. What Dick does or doesn't do to him isn't relevant here either. But if you want me to talk about BFTC (was that what some of you implied before?)?  That was as much out of character for Dick as it was for Jason or Tim. Dick isn't that manipulative, not for hurting. If he manipulates (and he does sometimes, but he doesn't reach Tim's levels of manipulation), he does so either to teach something to someone, or to distract someone of other stuff. There, he manipulated Jason just so he would be hurt enough to win a battle. That's under what he does, more so when he still thought of Jason as someone close, way closer than any rogue out there, even if jot exactly family (something arguable). Which brings me to another thing that felt out of character in Morrison's run, even if it wasn't as dissapointing as what happened to Jason there: Dick being so hesitant about his role and performance as Batman, and him being kind of insensive to his rogues at times (they were big dicks, but Dick being how he was was, et... He's more "rightfull but quippy" than how he was). I get why Morrison was doing it, but it robbed the character of some of his appeal for me (by the means of reducing his emotional conflcist to a handfull of them, or less, and writing him too black or white. Very silveragey, which was probably what he wanted). I love Dick as Batman, though, because all in all was a very fun read (not BFTC, that book was bad, but it wasn't Morrison either, so...)

I wasn't saying that he is always holding prejudices, I was saying that he sometimes does, and that they tend to make him fail with people he actually loves. It's realistic, it happens. Liking, caring and rationally understanding Shawn's or Damian's background doesn't mean he's not going to fall into judging people bassed in his views fabricated before contact to the issue at conflict now and then. And him being a hero, a clean hero who rarely has dealt into grays (Huntress, Spiral people, Deathstroke) like @restingvoice said, is a flaw that feels realistic.

----------


## Zaresh

> Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...


Steph, followed by Cas and Tim are the most stable as far as I know about them (which isn't much in the case of Cass or Steph). They still have to deal with heavy issues, but they seem to less prone to break (Tim tends to obsessive behaviour, though).

----------


## Drako

> Not allways, he was seeing a therapist during the NTT era, he wasn't in the best place after his wedding attempt with Starfire, he had a complete breakdown after Tarantua killed Blockbuster, he iirc quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis ...


He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.

Also, seeing a therapist is actually something good, since most of this characters are scarred for life, he at least was searching for help.

----------


## Zaresh

> He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.
> 
> Also, seeing a therapist is actually something good, since most of this characters are scarred for life, he at least was searching for help.


More should.
It could do for a nice book.

Damn, Heroes in Crisis had so much potential...

----------


## Aahz

> He didn't quit being Nightwing after Infinite Crisis. Dick, Bruce and Tim got a year vacation. It is shown in the book called 52.


I might remember it wrong but I thought he was retired at the beginning of "Nightwing: Brothers in Blood" but I might be wrong and have no desire to reread this story.

----------


## Godlike13

He quit after War Games. IC made him return.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, he got injured during War Games, so he quit, and Robin and Batgirl took over protecting Bludhaven... until it was destroyed a year later.

----------


## K7P5V

> Btw. I think a comic that shows the difference between Bruce and Dicks style of Crime fighting is imo Batman Adventures Vol.2 #12.


Agreed. Dick using the media to his advantage in his war against crime really showed the difference between him and the Batman.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Others have listed Dick's strengths. One of his weaknesses was getting along with Jason. Pre-New52, he and Jason weren't close. Especially compared to Dick with Tim and Damian. Even after coming back to life, pre or post New52, the two were never that close (though they had some good moments in the first Rebirth annual of Red Hood). 
> 
> Best I can say, before the "ric" thing, the two didn't hate one another and could work together. But were not exactly close.


Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?

Jason tried to kill him, Tim and shot a 10 year old boy in the spine. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil,  Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?

----------


## Restingvoice

When Bruce redefined the Batfam after his return in... #500? Damian asked that means he and Dick had to separate, and he said no since they work together so well and can guard Gotham while he's off collecting Batman from all over the world.

But we also know that Nightwing doesn't like capes if he can help it and he doesn't like to be Batman. He was very reluctant. At the same time, he'll be Batman if Bruce needs him, and he doesn't have Bludhaven anymore. 

So if there's never a reboot, would Nightwing ever quit being Batman and left Damian with Bruce? Even with Leviathan defeated, Talia and Damian...

Oooh... there it is. I bet he'll quit after Damian died.

----------


## Ascended

I think if Dick had quit after Damian died, it wouldn't have lasted. Dick doesn't know any other life. And I don't think he really wants one, even if he tries to talk himself into believing it sometimes. A year after the funeral, and Dick would've been back swinging across rooftops.

He may have taken the opportunity to dump the Bat cowl and gone back to his own identity though.

----------


## Zaresh

> Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?
> 
> Jason tried to kill him, Tim and shot a 10 year old boy in the spine. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil,  Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?


Not to want to argue, I don't want someone to complain about Jason fans intruding here again, but wasn't the one who shot Damian that time other guy, though? Flamingo during Dickbats, and then Heretic killed him in inc.

Edit: I lost my quote halfway posting it seems.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Not to want to argue, I don't want someone to complain about Jason fans intruding here again, but wasn't the one who shot Damian that time other guy, though? Flamingo during Dickbats, and then Heretic killed him in inc.
> 
> Edit: I lost my quote halfway posting it seems.


You know what you could be right. Probably are. Jason was the fake death trap? I need to reread that run

----------


## Sergard

> Why is not getting along with Jason a weakness though?
> 
> Jason tried to kill him, Tim and *shot a 10 year old boy in the spine*. When Dick was captured and tortured in Forever Evil,  Jason didn't lift a finger to help him but upon learning Dick was alive the first thing he did was throw a punch. Dick was recently shot in the head, the only interaction Jason has had with him is to tell him he's not part of the family, at a memorial service for Alfred no less. He has no reason to like Jason. How is it that Dick is always held accountable for their poor relationship but Jason gets a pass?

----------


## Zaresh

> You know what you could be right. Probably are. Jason was the fake death trap? I need to reread that run


Geez, it pains me to remember. Jason was so unJason in that run, there's a reason no Jason fan likes it. But as far as I remember, Jason seized Damian and hold him hostage in some bizarre scheme. It was around the first twelve issues, I think.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think if Dick had quit after Damian died, it wouldn't have lasted. Dick doesn't know any other life. And I don't think he really wants one, even if he tries to talk himself into believing it sometimes. A year after the funeral and Dick would've been back swinging across rooftops.
> 
> He may have taken the opportunity to dump the Bat cowl and gone back to his own identity though.


Yeah, that's what I meant. Not quitting superhero, just the Batman cowl. 

After that... did Zucco died in Post Crisis, was Year 3 still canon?

----------


## Godlike13

It was in BFTC where Jason shot Damian.

----------


## Zaresh

> It was in BFTC where Jason shot Damian.


He wasn't responsible for Damian getting his back broken, was my point.
Jason has attacked Tim (mostly, and hard), Damian and Dick as some point.
Same as Damian has attacked Jason and Tim. Or Dick and Tim going for Jason in Countdown.

Yeah, familial love at his finest.

----------


## Godlike13

No, he was just probably responsible for him getting a new lung. And yes, those are comparative.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait. I thought Jason and Dick somewhat fixed his relationship with Dick. So should or shouldn’t they have a good relationship?

----------


## Godlike13

Shouldn’t. Just because Lobdell rips off Tim’s origin doesn’t excuse Jason’s multiple attempts to maim and/or murder the others. Sometimes it’s ok not to get along with someone.

----------


## Zaresh

> Shouldn’t. Just because Lobdell rips off Tim’s origin doesn’t excuse Jason’s multiple attempts to maim and/or murder the others. Sometimes it’s ok not to get along with someone.


Lobdell didn't rip off Tim's origin.

Is it that hard to believe that Jason would go to the circus and be amazed by the Graysons, when the Graysons were touring and stopping in Gotham every year or so? I would rather believe it was a common thing for kids then.

And then Jason got to meet the real stuff. It's something you end up remembering because it is memorable.

Edit: and they worked fine before that. In Seeley's Nightwing, in Batman and Robin Eternal. In Robin War. It's not too weird or unbelieabable that they sort of made amends, to certain degree.

----------


## Godlike13

Hard to believe, maybe maybe not. Original, certainly not.

----------


## Restingvoice

I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? What's with Damian randomly picking up girls, Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get _some_ things wrong?

I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hard to believe, maybe maybe not. Original, certainly not.


Well, originality is subjective. Tim's origin still has a lot of differences. For starters, he witnessed the actual murder. And then (years later), seeked for Dick. You could argue a lot of Tim's gimmicks were copying other characters, that doesn't mean he was unoriginal or uninspired. Probably the only original thing in the whole Robin franchise is the concept of a (kid) hero sidekick itself (which is why Dick is "the original sidekick"), as the partner of an adult hero. And I'm not sure it wasn't something that happened in adventure books back in the day.

----------


## Godlike13

> I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? What's with Damian randomly picking up girls, Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get _some_ things wrong?
> 
> I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.


I dont remember either of those particularly being praised.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So should Jason or Dick get along or just be hostile. I often feel that it’s a brotherly thing at times but they can be pissed off. Than again he has tried to kill them at times

----------


## Ascended

I prefer it when Jason isn't included in family gatherings. I feel like since he returned to the fold and been included in things he's lost his fangs, so to speak. I think Dick and Jason love each other like brothers; it's a complicated dynamic considering everything like Death in the Family, and there's love there. But a lot of pain and disappointment and regret and resentment too. 

I'd rather they kind of not like being in the same room together, but still be willing to help one another when the other is up against a wall.

----------


## Godlike13

I agree, to me it misses the point with Jason. I don't even think Dick and Jason love each other like brothers. That's too convenient. Dick and Bruce are family by bond not blood. Dick developed an actual bond with Tim and Damian, the time they spent together is what made them close. He doesn't have that with Jason. He never really did. He accepted the kid, but no bond was really developed with them beyond that before Jason died, and when Jason came back he was actively trying to maim and/or murder him and the others. There is no reason for Dick to just accept or like Jason, and vice versa. Unlike Bruce Dick doesn't owe Jason anything. Just because Bruce sweeps things under the rug with Jason doesn't mean Dick should too. Thats boring and lazy. Red Hood is suppose to be polarizing.

----------


## Restingvoice

In an early Dixon Nightwing, Scarecrow made Dick had insecurity in comparison to Bruce where he's married to Donna but poor living right next door to the rich ass Bruce

Where... did this come from? I mean I haven't read what leads up to it, but it just looks out of nowhere, because while Dick may have insecurities it's not about wealth. 

Also, Donna? Is this because they only recently broke him up with Starfire and they haven't built up his relation with Babs?

----------


## Aahz

That Dick had kind of an "inferiority complex" (not sure if that's the right term) was iirc a thing since NTT (I think it was one of the things he spoke about with his therapist).

Why Donna I don't raelly know, maybe he wanted to use someone close to Dick, who he normally doesn't have romantic relation with?

Btw. it was actually the hallucination of Jason that shocked him out of it. (And he also hallucinated Jason in his Secret Files and Origins issue).

----------


## Restingvoice

I think the insecurity, for someone who used to work for a perfectionist like Batman, makes sense, it's the wealth thing and Donna that threw me off. If the fear is about not being able to guard Bludhaven as good as Batman guard Gotham (which isn't saying much but Dick kinda put Bruce on a pedestal) that sounds better to me. 

Wait maybe that's it. He puts Bruce on a pedestal, despite everything they went through. They just make up after having a rift post Jason's death, so his state of mind is probably back to admiration. 

Since a nightmare doesn't have to make sense, that feeling of fear and inadequacy now that he has to take care of a city on his own, made him compare himself to Bruce, but cleaning a city is an abstract concept. Wealth isn't. You can easily imagine wealth represented by materials.

So in a nightmare, the symbols that came up to represent the inadequacy towards what Dick perceives to be perfection, as he puts Bruce on a pedestal, is wealth.

----------


## Digifiend

Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I've always thought Jason worked best as a true anti-hero, willing to kill bad people, who operates outside of the family. I can see the argument for "character growth" away from his under the hood persona, but i think that growth actually looses more than it gains. Will-straight-up-kill-the-drug-dealer-Jason is something much different than the rest of the family, and still allows him to be a "good guy." I also think that Dick should pretty much hate him for trying to hurt Bruce and for still being willing to use lethal force. Dick is SO black and white with his morality. He's willing to help someone reform once they've "repented" so to speak, but if Jason still things he's in the right of it, Dick should want him away from family gatherings and actively oppose him. They should be rivals, not friends. 

And maybe Dick *should* forgive him, is the thing. Like, perhaps the right thing to do is to welcome Jason back with open arms and love him like a brother. But he can't. Unrepentant lethal force, trying to harm Bruce, Dick sees these as unforgivable sins.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea. They did try to get him with Donna I think but you know. That would be interesting. Hmmm, so Jason should be not a Bats anymore. But now he is somewhat. He doesn't often want to deal with Bruce. Or any of them. Expect Babs.

I mean Nightwing globetrotter hero. Okay, but the main cast and others are important. Three characters from Nightwing history that should be part of this globetrotter comic. Also important supporting cast. Does he go to spiral or does he simply do his own thing? LIke he joins an acrobat team in Bludhaven that travels. Part of Haley Circus. I don't know with or without him being part of BAtfam I can't see him just ridding himself of the name.

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## K7P5V

> Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.


Yeah! And it gets even more weird once Roy shows up.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> I thought people agree that Battle for The Cowl is stupid and shouldn't be canon? At least that seems to be the consensus back when it came out? *What's with Damian randomly picking up girls,* Jason randomly going on a rampage even though he should've been at least smarter than that, and it is Tony Daniel's first writing gig which he bound to get _some_ things wrong?
> 
> I remember everyone back then suggested to skip Battle for The Cowl and go with Batman Long Shadows instead if they want to read about Batman transition.


...Wait what  :Confused: ?

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## Rac7d*

> Weird, I thought Donna's relationship to Dick was always more brother-sister, not romantic. He loves her, but not that way.


That’s exactly right

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean would Donna and Dick ever even work really?

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## Aahz

> I think the insecurity, for someone who used to work for a perfectionist like Batman, makes sense, it's the wealth thing and Donna that threw me off.


I guess it is less about the wealth and more about success/achievements. Just read the part were Dick is going to Bruce for advice.

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## Pohzee

College is cancelled and I am bored, so I drew a redesign of the Agent 37 suit over the YJ Nightwing model. I always thought the suit in YJ was more spy than superhero and was never a fan of the cargo shorts in Janin's design.



Original for reference:

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## WonderNight

> I always thought the suit in YJ was more spy than superhero and was never a fan of the cargo shorts in Janin's design.


That's because he's a spy in YJ. :Smile:  He just works for/with the league.

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## Rac7d*

> I mean would Donna and Dick ever even work really?


The whole passing her around thing ehh

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## AmiMizuno

Yea in UJ. He uses Haley's  Circus as a cover. That way he can spot out heroes and other issues. This is why I think Haley Circus can still be used. He isn't working for the league. He is an acrobat for the Circus but will do detective work with intel he finds

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## Janet wayne

Can you please give examples of his flaws ?
I can only remember him being really mean to starfire when she married other guy to prevent war and to Donna for forcing him with her strength  to talk about his problems. He pointed out her flaws which was all true but still mean. Also him cheating on Babs but that it.

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## Janet wayne

Im confused ...What is heroic about that Nightwing that Dick wanted to name himself after the home wrecker?

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## Digifiend

I'm confused about why you think he named himself after a home wrecker - he actually named himself after Superman.

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## Ascended

Well technically the Nightwing from Kryptonian myth had an affair with the married Flamebird, which lead to her husband going from a god of creation to a god of destruction.....

So I suppose we could call the Nightwing entity a home wrecker.....

But I'm pretty sure Dick took the name because the Nightwing was a protector who haunted the darkness for threats to Rao and Krypton.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Rakiduam

> College is cancelled and I am bored, so I drew a redesign of the Agent 37 suit over the YJ Nightwing model. I always thought the suit in YJ was more spy than superhero and was never a fan of the cargo shorts in Janin's design.
> 
> 
> 
> Original for reference:


It looks really good




> Im confused ...What is heroic about that Nightwing that Dick wanted to name himself after the home wrecker?


What's in a name? Now that I think about many heroes names aren't that heroic, more descriptive, "Batman" "Robin""Batgirl"...

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## AmiMizuno

Okay I do think thanks to YJ we can bring back Haley's Circus. Dick uses that has a cover to investiage. 

One other thing if there were a Robin movie how should it end. With Dick leaving and Jason Todd putting on the Suit or focusing jiust on Dick.

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## Restingvoice

> ...Wait what ?


Yeah. Damian's first scene in Battle for The Cowl was stealing the Batmobile to take a random goth girl on a joyride. Babs found out about it, took over the car control, eject the girl, and crash the car into the swamp, where Damian was found by Killer Croc, who want to nom Damian, prompting him to scream for mommy, at which Dick rescued him with a hang glider. 

In later Tony Daniel Batman Detective Comics' work, he referenced the scene. Damian said he's not scared of anything, and Batman Dick reminded him that he was scared of Killer Croc.

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## Mr. White

> College is cancelled and I am bored, so I drew a redesign of the Agent 37 suit over the YJ Nightwing model. I always thought the suit in YJ was more spy than superhero and was never a fan of the cargo shorts in Janin's design.
> 
> 
> 
> Original for reference:



*Sigh.* And the hits keep coming...
Its posts like these that serve as a (painful) reminder of what could have been.
[I know. I know...I sound like a broken record].
I'm by no means an artist but this fanart/ concept is really good and would've really worked in the series. 
Kudos.

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## AmiMizuno

But I mean in Young Justice he was already a spy for JL. He does it by using Haley circus Why should he be  Agent 37? Is he Agent 37 and Nightwing or just Agent 37?

----------


## Claude

> Yeah. Damian's first scene in Battle for The Cowl was stealing the Batmobile to take a random goth girl on a joyride. Babs found out about it, took over the car control, eject the girl, and crash the car into the swamp, where Damian was found by Killer Croc, who want to nom Damian, prompting him to scream for mommy, at which Dick rescued him with a hang glider.


I'm pretty sure that the art suggests, as well, that the girl who gets "ejected" is then torn apart and eaten by Croc. So... well done, Babs.

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## Frontier

> I'm pretty sure that the art suggests, as well, that the girl who gets "ejected" is then torn apart and eaten by Croc. So... well done, Babs.


Wow, this sounds like a terrible story  :Stick Out Tongue: .

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## Drako

> I'm pretty sure that the art suggests, as well, that the girl who gets "ejected" is then torn apart and eaten by Croc. So... well done, Babs.


Definitely not what happened. In the same page Croc is hitting against the batmobile and after that he is in the swamp with Damian. The last thing we see form the girl is her falling with a parachute in front of the moon. Nothing suggests that she was eaten.

If the girl were eaten people would lost their minds.

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## Drako

double post.

Edit: Here is the page.

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## dietrich

> Im confused ...What is heroic about that Nightwing that Dick wanted to name himself after the home wrecker?


I guess the part about Nightwing being a Kryptonian hero. All the acts of heroism.

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## Claude

> Definitely not what happened. In the same page Croc is hitting against the batmobile and after that he is in the swamp with Damian. The last thing we see form the girl is her falling with a parachute in front of the moon. Nothing suggests that she was eaten.
> 
> If the girl were eaten people would lost their minds.


Nope, I've gone and checked - Croc definitely eats her. I've never got the hang of posting images, but it's a couple of pages after the one you've uploaded - Damian's in the swamp with Croc and Ivy, Croc has blood on his mouth and is dropping the girl's bloodied pink sneaker and says "thanks for the appetizer".

She dead.

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## Jackalope89

Yeah, went back to check that out too.

More reason to hate that storyline.

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## Ascended

> I guess the part about Nightwing being a Kryptonian hero. All the acts of heroism.


Yup, the Nightwing definitely seemed to be a big deal in Kryptonian mythology. Saved Rao from threats even the other gods couldn't detect and all manner of things. 

I'm no expert on Kryptonian myth, since most of that stuff was developed long before I was reading (or even born), but from what I understand it was very much like Dick himself; a protector who operated in the shadows, tackling threats before anyone else knew they were there. 

It seems the biggest myth the Nightwing was a part of is the dissolution of the Flamebird's marriage and her ex-husband becoming a destroyer (which I think was eventually tied to Krypton's instability and destruction?) but even so, the Nightwing was considered a noble, good god by the ancient Kryptonians (before Raoism fell and was replaced by science anyway).

I always thought it was a good name for Dick.

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## Drako

> Nope, I've gone and checked - Croc definitely eats her. I've never got the hang of posting images, but it's a couple of pages after the one you've uploaded - Damian's in the swamp with Croc and Ivy, Croc has blood on his mouth and is dropping the girl's bloodied pink sneaker and says "thanks for the appetizer".
> 
> She dead.


Yeah, you're right. I didn't catching this the first time, cause i didn't remember reading something like this. Holy shit. 

I also don't remember people making a big deal out of this, weird.

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## Jackalope89

> Yeah, you're right. I didn't catching this the first time, cause i didn't remember reading something like this. Holy shit. 
> 
> I also don't remember people making a big deal out of this, weird.


Allow me to re-iterate what I said in the TV/Film forum; what about the redshirts!? In this case, a teen girl suddenly eaten by Killer Croc? Yeesh. And Babs didn't take any flack for it? Worse.

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## Badou

The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story. There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.

Near the start of Rebirth there was a small push to try and have the Nightwing name come from the Court of Owls. They hinted that the Night + Wing of the name actually represents an Owl. I bet in the future they will try to push that again given how obsessed they are with Dick and the Owls despite Dick never having a truly great Owls story to justify any of it. Then there was the live action Titans TV show where they came up with some completely different origin for the Nightwing name that Dick got while in some prison in South America or something stupid. Finally the Kryptonian element of every other media Nightwing adaptation is completely ignored or overlooked. It just doesn't really seem to matter overall. 

I personally prefer the Kryptonian element of the name, but I bet they will eventually retcon it into something else. It just feels like that is the direction things will eventually go.

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## AmiMizuno

Should Dick ever even be part of the court?

Should we fix Dicks relationship with Clark? Like Him having a relationship with Clark?

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## WonderNight

> The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story. There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.
> 
> Near the start of Rebirth there was a small push to try and have the Nightwing name come from the Court of Owls. They hinted that the Night + Wing of the name actually represents an Owl. I bet in the future they will try to push that again given how obsessed they are with Dick and the Owls despite Dick never having a truly great Owls story to justify any of it. Then there was the live action Titans TV show where they came up with some completely different origin for the Nightwing name that Dick got while in some prison in South America or something stupid. Finally the Kryptonian element of every other media Nightwing adaptation is completely ignored or overlooked. It just doesn't really seem to matter overall. 
> 
> I personally prefer the Kryptonian element of the name, but I bet they will eventually retcon it into something else. It just feels like that is the direction things will eventually go.


Well yeah DC wants everything about dick's character to come from Batman. Dick's super connections are nonexistent, the new 52 erased his titans history, his history with starfire was just a fling now, Wally and donna were erased. 

DC just see's nightwing as a supporting character to Batman so everything about him has to come from or be about the batman mythos. That's why alot of people still see nightwing as a sidekick and a stepping stone to batman.

I don't want that for dick but it is what it is. But when fans tell me nightwing is his own man I just laugh.

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## WonderNight

> Should Dick ever even be part of the court?
> 
> Should we fix Dick’s relationship with Clark? Like Him having a relationship with Clark?


As long as the court is popular dick will be apart of it.

Should dick's relationship with clark be fixed. Yes will DC let it? No Clark isn't from the bat mythos so him and Clark will rarely talk or see each other.

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## Ascended

> The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story. There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.
> 
> Near the start of Rebirth there was a small push to try and have the Nightwing name come from the Court of Owls. They hinted that the Night + Wing of the name actually represents an Owl. I bet in the future they will try to push that again given how obsessed they are with Dick and the Owls despite Dick never having a truly great Owls story to justify any of it. Then there was the live action Titans TV show where they came up with some completely different origin for the Nightwing name that Dick got while in some prison in South America or something stupid. Finally the Kryptonian element of every other media Nightwing adaptation is completely ignored or overlooked. It just doesn't really seem to matter overall. 
> 
> I personally prefer the Kryptonian element of the name, but I bet they will eventually retcon it into something else. It just feels like that is the direction things will eventually go.


That's all true, but what is isn't what should be.

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## AmiMizuno

Do you guys think Dick should be part of the court? I feel this worsts him being able to use the Circus ever again. I mean if we were to use the YJ animated series, this is where he used Haley's Circus as a cover.  In the comics the court is using it. Unless Dick knew this and is a double agent

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## Godlike13

No, the Court has become their lazy go to. They play with the idea too much with no consistency or awareness of the times before.

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## Drako

I feel like he should keep Cobb as one of his villains, but not the whole court of owls since it's very overused now of days.

In this topic, which villains you guys think his gallery should have? 

Cobb is a no-brainer to me. Raptor should come back, he is the best one Dick had in a while. He should take Lady Vic back. I would like a new take on Shrike too. Maaybe Saiko? He was a little lame at the end though.

Those are good villains for him to fight, but i can't think of any good cerebral ones and i don't really care for Blockbuster.. By the end of Black Mirror i wanted James Jr. as his "Joker" but right now he is a Batgirl villain. Maybe Judge? Prankster was lame too. Higgins was not good at creating villains.

Come to think of it, Minos could be a choice.

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## AmiMizuno

Maybe lesser known villains. Because I don’t want a Batman villain becoming a Nightwing Villain. I do feel Blockbuster could stillbr one. Maybe Deathstroke can be one. When you mean Joker are you seeing his archenemy?

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## Drako

> Maybe lesser known villains. Because I don’t want a Batman villain becoming a Nightwing Villain. I do feel Blockbuster could stillbr one. Maybe Deathstroke can be one. When you mean Joker are you seeing his archenemy?


Yes, as archenemy. In Black Mirror James Jr was depicted kinda like a the reverse Dick Grayson, so to me would be cool to have him in the gallery, but he became a villain for Barbara, which make sense for the character as well.

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## Confuzzled

> Yes, as archenemy. In Black Mirror James Jr was depicted kinda like a the reverse Dick Grayson, so to me would be cool to have him in the gallery, *but he became a villain for Barbara, which make sense for the character as well.*


Need the fact that Gordon wished his first-born to be a son in _Year One_ to be played up, just to reflect the irony of how James Jr. and Barbara turned out respectively.

As for Dick, Jason would have been the perfect inverse for him but DC wanted him to become an anti-hero.

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## Ascended

Cobb should definitely be a major rogue. And the Court should stick around too. They're overused and poorly used, so they should be put on the shelf for a little while, but the Court of Owls is a good concept and their connections to Dick aren't going anywhere. So give them a break, but yes they should be part of the rogues gallery.

Dixon gave us plenty of villains worth keeping; Blockbuster of course, Lady Vic, Brutale, Double Dare, Soames, etc. 

Raptor definitely is worth keeping.

Professor Pyg, Flamingo, and the Circus of Strange all started as Dick villains, even if he was wearing pointy ears, and should remain Dick villains. 

I'd take the HIVE from the Titans gallery and give them to Dick. I feel like one good way to show those heroes have grown and improved since the NTT era is to split the NTT rogues among the individual heroes; HIVE for Nightwing, the Fearsome Five for Cyborg, Cult of Blood for Raven, etc.

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## Drako

Flamingo would be cool. He's not used very often and appeared "recently" in the Nightwing book.

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## Aahz

> The Kryptonian relationship to the Nightwing name is basically irrelevant to Dick's character these days. It is one of those things I think fans put far more weight on than the actual creators do. Dick basically has no relationship with Superman or the Superman family anymore outside of maybe Dick and Clark crossing paths once every 5 or so years in a story.


It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.




> There has been a consistent push to try and erase the connection to the Kryptonian legend from what I have seen.


Asfar as I know connection was anyway only mentioned in Nightwing: Year One, and that was published roughly 15-20 years after he became Nightwing.

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## dropkickjake

Yeah, over the years Dick has had plenty of pretty decent rogues to choose from. 

*Crazy Quilt-* the episode of him The Brave in the Bold was fantastic. You've got this super campy art collector/thief that goes blind from an encounter with Dick while he was Robin. He's got the Color Guard, these beefy shirtless dudes all painted mono-chromatically. This vibe is so trippy and campy and weird. I'm about it.

*Pyg*- Man. I can't say enough about Pyg. This guy should be Dicks joker-level threat. He could also be Dick's Dark Mirror in place of James Jr. Dick, whether he's in fingerstipes, pointy ears, or pixie books, is about inspiring hope in people. He is a showman. He was mentored by Batman and Superman alike. He's about inspiring hope, not fear. His "performance" is aimed at making people believe the best in humanity, the best in themselves. Pyg is a performer too. With his circus of the strange, he says "I want to be sick in front of everyone." Dick is the well adjusted loving older brother who encourages his proteges to be themselves rather than miniature versions of himself; Pyg creates dozens of identical dollotrons. Bonus- Pygs history with Spyral, with the psychotropic drugs unhinging his brain!

*Cobb* is a good villain for him, he's just been painfully misused of late. The *Owls* (whether Court or *Parliament*) are absolutely worth keeping around; they just need a good long break.

*Raptor* was brilliant.

I think *Deathstroke* has surpassed the realm of being in anyone rogues gallery, but he should be a rival of sorts. He should be this anti-mentor from Dick's past. They should be in conflict from time to time.

*Red Hood* was one of the major villains for the Batman Reborn era, but as someone said DC wants him to be an anti-hero now (almost just a hero IMO). Regardless, Jason and Dick should be heated rivals, not loving brothers. Perhaps they aren't enemies, but they despise and distrust each other. 

There are a handful of villains from the Dixon days that are worth hanging on to. *Lady Vic* and *Double Dare* top that list for me. *Electrocutioner* and *Brutale* a rung beneath them in my mind but worth keeping; they are like spiderman villains in the best way possible. I was never convinced with *Shrike*, but he may be worth revisiting and breathing some new life into, particularly because I think his back story involves some undercover/spy stuff form a young Dick Grayson.

*Blockbuster* is too big not to keep, but I'd want him to be more of a member of the rouges gallery than the Kingpin.

Dudley Soames worked better as a crooked cop than as Torque. "The Inspector" is worth keeping in a way Torque never was.

And, I almost forgot; my favorite idea for resurrecting concepts for a great Dick Grayson Villain- combine the Saiko and *Raya* concepts. Bring Raya back from the dead, but Talon-ized, and she blames Dick Grayson for everything! I felt like she was the most well developed supporting character from the Court of Owls build up.

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## Pohzee

I still would like to see Tiger as a Nightwing villain. I'm almost 100% certain that the script of Better Than Batman was adapted from a Grayson storyline with Tiger, but there's still so much potential there.

Superficially they both fulfill the partner/mentor role whose methods challenge Dick's beliefs. Both are anti-capitalist, anti-American imperialism and see Dick as blindly ignorant to his privileges. Both use more violent methods that could challenge Batman's strict moral principles. Etc.

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## AmiMizuno

I'm curious with how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?

----------


## Aahz

They could also bring back The Clock from his Golden Age Solos Stories and The Raven from his Time at Hudson University, both were iirc the biggest villains from those eras.

Hella was also a petty cool villain from the Dixon Era.

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## Restingvoice

> Asfar as I know connection was anyway only mentioned in Nightwing: Year One, and that was published roughly 15-20 years after he became Nightwing.


It's still mentioned in New 52 and Rebirth, but only once each. 




> I'm curious about how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?


In New 52 they're exchanging villains. They gave Superman villain Prankster to Nightwing, Nightwing villain Lady Vic to Batwing, and I don't remember what else. 

Of course, Deathstroke has been traded with everyone long before that.

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## Aahz

> I'm curious with how big DC is do you guys think there are villains outside the Batfam that would work? Characters that aren't used much?


Hard to say, most DC characters other them Batman don't have that many good villains, that they could afford to loose one.

In the Batfamily there are a lot a lot off villains that fell into obscurity, and long running series like Tim Drakes Robin, Birds of Prey or Batwoman, that might not get continued anytime soon.

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## Aahz

> It's still mentioned in New 52 and Rebirth, but only once each.


Ok the point I wanted to make was that this Kryptonian connection is not something that was really an important thing in the comics when he became Nightwing, so not mentioning it is not really downplaying something from back than.

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## Pohzee

> They could also bring back The Clock from his Golden Age Solos Stories and The Raven from his Time at Hudson University, both were iirc the biggest villains from those eras.
> 
> Hella was also a petty cool villain from the Dixon Era.


Seconding The Raven and MAZE. We all here rave about Grayson, so the more secret organizations, the better.

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## Badou

The Court of Owls is frustrating. They have been forced into Dick's past and history so much now. They have completely tainted Haley's Circus and are such an easy go-to when writers need a quick story to get Dick to do something. In theory I don't dislike the Owls and they could be good, but how they have been used, especially in Dick's stories, is just really frustrating if they are meant to be this super important part to his character now.

The problem starts with Snyder's Court of Owls story in his Batman run. It's probably the most defining story of the New 52 era. It was a massive success, but it was very much a Bruce and Batman story throughout. Dick's role in Snyder's Owls story was very mitigated. Bruce is who the Owls cared about. Outside of getting punched in the face by Bruce Dick didn't really do much in Snyder's story. Maybe that was because Dick had his own ongoing book with Higgins writing Dick's view of the Owls story and they figured it would be better to have all of Dick's "important" parts be contained in it, but that is also what makes it frustrating. Since Higgins Owls story doesn't come close to being what Snyder's Owls story was, especially as it was written as a supporting book to Snyder's a bit. I thought it was average at best with characters like Raya or Saiko being completely forgettable, and when Higgins' story is what is supposed to redefine Dick's entire background and history it isn't strong enough to justify such imposing changes. 

So we are left with this situation of the Owls being a core part of Dick's background now, but the defining Owls story by Snyder that is now an iconic Batman story Dick doesn't really do much in it outside of playing a small supporting role. You need a iconic or great Owls story with Dick at the center to really justify all these major changes to his history, but we never got that. Then after that Owls story there has been this weird shift with Dick now being this vital thing the Court feels like they NEED to have, but he was never that in Snyder's original story. So writers act like Dick is this super important person the Owls desperately want, but it doesn't really make sense going off the original story.

Plus I wouldn't be surprised if over time they continue to try and add more Owls elements into Dick's character. Such as the Nightwing name coming from the Owls, but I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually have it turn out the Owls are responsible for his parents' death too.




> It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
> But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.


When Dick first used the Nightwing name the writers and creators at that time grew up on those old Batman, Robin and Superman stories. They were the original Trinity of characters, and there was also the Super Friends cartoon on at that time as well. So Robin/Dick interacting with Superman was still in the public consciousness and the Nightwing name fit better. Now that we are even more decades removed from it the old relationship or dynamic has faded even more probably to where it doesn't make sense to tie Dick's Nightwing name to Superman. It just feels like it will eventually get written out.

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## AmiMizuno

Can Haley's circus be saved? I mean this could have been the best way to get Dick to be his own hero while still being Nightwing. He traveling and fighting crime city to city.  If the crime is to be involved in Dick's life how should it be Okay maybe some unused Villians are the best way.  Has of now how many rogues does Dick have?

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## dropkickjake

we had this conversation like 4 pages ago.

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## Digifiend

> Hard to say, most DC characters other them Batman don't have that many good villains, that they could afford to loose one.
> 
> In the Batfamily there are a lot a lot off villains that fell into obscurity, and long running series like Tim Drakes Robin, Birds of Prey or Batwoman, that might not get continued anytime soon.


Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.

----------


## dietrich

> Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.


Does it? A Robin Anniversary Special with 5 characters with different fan bases is not the same as a Robin solo.
I don't see many Damian, Tim or Dick fans demanding a Robin solo with Steph.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It is not like there was much of a relationship beyond Dick beeing in there in the Batman/Superman crossovers and a few team ups of him and Jimmy Olsen in World's finest in the Silverage.
> But this relation was never as close or as important as his relation with the Titans or the rest of the Batfamily.





> Ok the point I wanted to make was that this Kryptonian connection is not something that was really an important thing in the comics when he became Nightwing, so not mentioning it is not really downplaying something from back than.


There are a LOT of Batman and Superman team up stories throughout the Silver and Bronze ages, and Dick is in a lot of them though. Clark was pretty much an honorary uncle, and he is literally mentioned in the same sequence as Bruce and the Graysons as an influence in the very issue Dick adopts the Nightwing name. It was being acknowledged in the Titan comic it was taking place in. 

They've definitely downplayed the connection since then to the point where it's no longer relevant, but that's not really to the benefit of the character IMO. Without the Superman connection and context, Nightwing as a name is pretty much meaningless. It's just a generic name you give to a Batman-lite vigilante. Even Wolfman (in his introduction in the Judas Contract trade) said he and Perez weren't wild about the name and used it as a placeholder and couldn't come up with anything else 




> Professor Pyg, Flamingo, and the Circus of Strange all started as Dick villains, even if he was wearing pointy ears, and should remain Dick villains.


They should be his villains. And I think I've brought it up before, but since the two of them started out as villains in the possible future of Damian!Batman, I think the other villains present there or mentioned should be re-worked as present day Nightwing villains: the Weasel, Max Roboto, Jackanpas, the Sphinx, Loveless, Candyman, etc are all cool designs or catchy names/concepts that could be elaborated upon. 

So all of them plus some of Seeley's creations like Raptor, Dr. Levictus, the Gone Men and especially the limitless Fist of Cain would be a colorful and potentially cool rogue gallery who wouldn't be tied down to one location, which ideally Dick shouldn't be either.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why is Nightwing nefted in the animated universe. Someone alway has to safe him.  Kori, while stronger was training them
to fight. While Dick should have been the better option. Dick seems to one a losing streak.

----------


## Digifiend

> Does it?


I said I hoped it showed that, not that there was. It'll depend on reader response. People writing to them (even though there's no letters pages in DC comics nowadays), discussing it on social media, that sort of thing.

----------


## bearman

One of the many reasons I would like Dick to settle in Metropolis when he’s better...in addition to spending time with Clark and Lois...is to have Jimmy Olsen be his wingman during boys nights out...Jimmy has known his identity for years, and they always used to have fun back in the old Worlds Finest.

----------


## dietrich

> Why is Nightwing nefted in the animated universe. Someone alway has to safe him.  Kori, while stronger was training them
> to fight. While Dick should have been the better option. Dick seems to one a losing streak.


Always has to be saved? Note: batman in this verse has been saved by others more times than Nightwing.
Note: Nightwing has saved other more times than he's needed some aid. But sure whatever. 

Nightwing protects his own city. Star doesn't have that kind of responsibility so it makes sense her training the TT.

I mean he's in Multiple comics currently [some Good]
Murphy's got a Mini coming up
he's in 2 animated shows and he's in a Live action TV show not for an 80 year old. 
He's doing  compared to a lot of Dc Character's regardless of the complaints we express on here.

----------


## dietrich

> I said I hoped it showed that, not that there was. It'll depend on reader response. People writing to them (even though there's no letters pages in DC comics nowadays), discussing it on social media, that sort of thing.


I wouldn't mind a Robin solo but I'm not holding my breathe. I enjoyed Tim and Damian titles [shame Gleason didn't get to complete his RSOB series] Just got into Dick's solo Robin adventures in Star Spangled comics and thoroughly enjoying it. Golden age comics always make me laugh even when they are serious.

----------


## Digifiend

What? I didn't know he had solos that early - thought he didn't get them until the 1970s, where he starred in Batman Family and then Detective Comics, initially alongside Batgirl before both got solo features. Then in the 80s he had a run as Nightwing in Action Comics Weekly, but only got a book to himself in the 90s, after Tim's book had already launched.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> What? I didn't know he had solos that early - thought he didn't get them until the 1970s, where he starred in Batman Family and then Detective Comics, initially alongside Batgirl before both got solo features. Then in the 80s he had a run as Nightwing in Action Comics Weekly, but only got a book to himself in the 90s, after Tim's book had already launched.


Yes there was a Robin section from 1947-1953 in SSC hat made GA Robin appear in more issues than his Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

I don't want a Robin solo unless he's an independent Robin because I want there to be a few books as possible. Less problem with continuity and consistency. If he partners in Batman and lives with him, a regular appearance in Batman's book is enough. If he's a rebel, lives in a different apartment, and doesn't contact Batman often, then yeah, I want a solo, coz then it's different enough to warrant another purchase.

----------


## Aahz

> Seriously, why is there no Robin solo book when both Tim and Damian have had one in the past? I hope last week's Robin anniversary special shows DC that there's a demand for it.


I think one Problem is that Damian doesn't really work for the type of Robin stories they did with Dick and Tim, which were usually a mix of (more or less) street level crimefighting and high school/collage drama.

He fits really better into something like Super Sons or Teen titans where he can go on crazy adventures. I mean ROSB was also pretty over the top for a Robin book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Does also fits with Nightwing. I kind of wondered would Damian fit better as Dick's sidekick?

----------


## Pohzee

I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think one Problem is that Damian doesn't really work for the type of Robin stories they did with Dick and Tim, which were usually a mix of (more or less) street level crimefighting and high school/collage drama.
> 
> He fits really better into something like Super Sons or Teen titans where he can go on crazy adventures. I mean ROSB was also pretty over the top for a Robin book.


Their are so many heroes running around Gotham thease days he doesn’t need to be their, he is one of batman lieutenants he comes by when needed

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try


Yeah, it's not like he's demon spawn 100% all the time. It will be fun seeing him trying to blend into normal school and teenage life. He won't do it voluntarily, but if there's someone to protect, if he can be made to think it's part of a mission, he'll do it.

----------


## Godlike13

> I think Damian could absolutely work in traditional Robin stories. They just don't try


Is traditional Robin stories what we want with Damian though?

----------


## Ascended

> Is traditional Robin stories what we want with Damian though?


Occasionally, sure. 

It could be fun seeing Damian in a traditional Robin role now and then.

----------


## Pohzee

> Occasionally, sure. 
> 
> It could be fun seeing Damian in a traditional Robin role now and then.


Yeah I miss the classic Batman and Robin schtick at times. And there's no reason Damian can't fulfill it unless he's written as a one-dimensional character.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I wouldn't mind. The thing is DC wants to make meet a jerk. Sure he should this be a jerk but more light

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, it's not like he's demon spawn 100% all the time. It will be fun seeing him trying to blend into normal school and teenage life. He won't do it voluntarily, but if there's someone to protect, if he can be made to think it's part of a mission, he'll do it.


Maybe but I don't see that working as the default setting for an 100+ issue run.

----------


## Godlike13

> Occasionally, sure. 
> 
> It could be fun seeing Damian in a traditional Robin role now and then.


But part of the point of Damian is that he isn’t your traditional Robin. Telling traditional Robin stories with him kind of defeats the purpose.

----------


## dietrich

> Maybe but I don't see that working as the default setting for an 100+ issue run.


It doesn't have to be a 100+ issue run

It doesn't even have to be the default setting. it could vary.

Some stories set during WestReeves term time- stories about Damian trying to blend into a normal school life. Personally I prefer the way Tomasi and Gotham Academy handled it. Not even attempting and class mates disliking him for being a smarty pants then develop a little from there.

He's still forced to because shenanigans or some to save.

Summer break could be Robin stories where he teams up with batman, visits Nightwing but they end up teaming up to do hero work because shenanigans.
Damian bored looking for crime with Goliath and bumping into Maya or maps [bring her back] leading to crime fighting.

This gives a break from the default setting and allows for whatever type of story in any setting.

i don't want just school/teen adventures. I enjoy them but prefer the RSOB type adventures so it'd be nice to mix it up. incorporating the variety of themes that can be explore with the character.
I even want stories with his pets.

----------


## Ascended

> But part of the point of Damian is that he isn’t your traditional Robin. Telling traditional Robin stories with him kind of defeats the purpose.


Eh, I enjoy the contrast.

----------


## Godlike13

I see it creating another Nightwing or Red Hood situation. Conforming the character with traditional traps so they can more easily produce another fodder book for a traditional style, boring old creator, no one would give the time of day anymore if they didn’t make their work a character’s only option. 

To me it’s not a question of could they, but should they. And imo they should not. It’s a trap Damian would be better off to avoid.

----------


## Ascended

Oh it's definitely not something I want to see with Damian all the time. Just once in a while. Seeley did that short arc with Damian and Dr. Hurt, and Damian largely filled the sidekick role there. And it was fun, and didn't damage Damian at all. 

That's all I want to see. Just a short arc every few years where Damian partners up with Dick (or Bruce, for that matter).

Likewise, I sometimes want to see a fun story about Batman, instead of pulp, horror, etc. I don't want a return to Batman 66, but I don't mind a brief visit now and then either. As long as it's brief, and we only visit occasionally.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric is DC Reddit's Character of the Month, LoL.

----------


## Ascended

> Ric is DC Reddit's Character of the Month, LoL.


I'm confused; do they intentionally pick the worst thing ever? I saw Agent 37 had *one* vote, while Ric and "tentacle monster Jason Todd" (what *is* that?) had 69 and 68. 

Even the write up slams the story for not making any sense and being the worst thing ever. So how is Ric character of the month, unless it's "worst" character?

----------


## Drako

> I'm confused; do they intentionally pick the worst thing ever? I saw Agent 37 had *one* vote, while Ric and "tentacle monster Jason Todd" (what *is* that?) had 69 and 68. 
> 
> Even the write up slams the story for not making any sense and being the worst thing ever. So how is Ric character of the month, unless it's "worst" character?


Pretty sure it's a April Fools joke.

----------


## Godlike13

> I'm confused; do they intentionally pick the worst thing ever? I saw Agent 37 had *one* vote, while Ric and "tentacle monster Jason Todd" (what *is* that?) had 69 and 68. 
> 
> Even the write up slams the story for not making any sense and being the worst thing ever. So how is Ric character of the month, unless it's "worst" character?


Cause he’s the #1 fool.

----------


## Ascended

> Pretty sure it's a April Fools joke.





> Cause he’s the #1 fool.


Oh yeah. April 1st. 

Stupid isolation has me losing track of days.

----------


## Digifiend

> I'm confused; do they intentionally pick the worst thing ever? I saw Agent 37 had *one* vote,


So did Batman Dick.

----------


## Drako

The real Character of the Month is Dick Grayson as Batman.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...son_as_batman/

Agent 37 was second.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If Robin had a movie how would you want to have this work? By that Dick Grayson part one movie  or trilogy. Or each film focuses one Robin

----------


## Restingvoice

> If Robin had a movie how would you want to have this work? By that Dick Grayson part one movie or trilogy. Or each film focuses one Robin


Just one Robin movie first
Act 1 will be the Circus, Death of The Flying Graysons, Bruce Wayne, and adoption, all from Dick Grayson's perspective interspersed with Bruce's perspective investigating the Graysons' death.
Act 2 will be Dick discovering the Batcave, some conflict between Dick, Bruce and Alfred about the wisdom of training a child, and the training montage itself, maybe with some field partnership showcase
Act 3 will be defeating the villain and the resolution of partnership conflict from Act 2

Zucco is not a strong enough villain, so I think maybe he should be defeated between Act 1 and 2 or between Act 2 and 3 similar to how Maroni was arrested and replaced by Scarecrow and Ra's in Batman Begins. The final villain of Act 3 can be Two-Face

Whichever the Act 3 villain is I want him to be already established because the villain origin of someone big like Two-Face or Joker can overshadow

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious would you guys want somewhat of a retcon after ric ends?

----------


## Fergus

> I'm curious would you guys want somewhat of a retcon after ric ends?


Only if the retcon comes with Dc giving back all the cash I spent on Ric comics and returns all the time I wasted reading Ric.

A retcon doesn't change that it happened and he is being mind controlled so it's not like Dick did anything wrong.

----------


## Godlike13

Retcon isn’t necessary, just ignore it and move on.

----------


## Mr. White

> Retcon isn’t necessary, just ignore it and move on.


Seconded. 
Move on and never make reference to it again.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm curious would you guys want somewhat of a retcon after Ric ends?


I want a relaunch or renumbering so that I can have an unbroken collection of Rebirth Nightwing up until just before Ric, then stops and continue with New Timeline Nightwing issue or trade #1

----------


## Ascended

I'll take a re-numbering and a return to a proper Nightwing direction, with no reference of Ric ever made again.

Whether the re-launch is a #1 or a combined "classic" numbering, I don't care.

If it was a classic numbering, I don't even know what issue we'd be up to now?

----------


## Aahz

> If it was a classic numbering, I don't even know what issue we'd be up to now?


- If we only count the "Nightwing" Ongoings, the last issues (Nightwing #70) would have been issue 256.
- If we also count the 1995 Nightwing mini series  he had before his first ongoing that would add 4 issues
- I we also count "Grayson" that would add 20 issues

----------


## Ascended

Cool, thanks. 

I don't think miniseries should count, but Grayson should. I'd argue that a DickRobin solo should count too, but even though Dick had a number of solo adventures in the Golden Age those were just....backups? in other books I think? Or team ups? I forget, this stupid quarantine has turned my brain into mush.....

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, only Tim and Damian have had books called Robin, Dick never had his own book until the 90s, long after he became Nightwing, even though he'd had his own feature in anthologies previously.

----------


## Ascended

Thanks for reminding me. I know all this but man, sitting around the house all day is doing a number on my brain. I wish I could claim "day drinking!" but I'm not even a night drinker.....

----------


## astro@work

> Retcon isnt necessary, just ignore it and move on.


Yep, this. Whatever brings back his Dick memories wipes out his Ric memories. It never needs to be mentioned again.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> I'm curious would you guys want somewhat of a retcon after ric ends?


I want a retcon. It has ruined my whole outlook on the Batfamily and the Titans. They essentially turned their back on someone who was shot in the head. Ric is insufferable but I mean surely they'd expect some personality changes after a TBI? 

I know it's down to bad writing and planning but it makes the Batfamily and Titans look like either imbeciles or monsters. Babs has Dicks memories, a normal woman wouldn't forget that but Babs has an eidetic memory, so is she just sitting on that info to be a cow? I will never take it seriously when the Titans say "Titans together" or someone says Dick is the heart of the team/family/DCU. 

There is no payoff coming that will make this arc worth it. Bruce will pat him on the head, Dick will ignore the fact that his family and friends are terrible people, probably apologize for the inconvenience he caused, then we'll go back to constantly changing creative teams, treading water until the next big event tie in. Sorry for the rant

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, they should've shown Raven and Miss Martian trying - and failing - to fix him. Barbara did at least try, but she's not psychic like Megan.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Yeah, they should've shown Raven and Miss Martian trying - and failing - to fix him. Barbara did at least try, but she's not psychic like Megan.


I know Babs has visited him but as far as I know there's been no explanation as to why she hasn't mentioned the memories in a jar. Probably because DC needs this arc to drag on for some time but it doesn't make any sense plot wise. It has an unintended consequence of making Babs look like an idiot.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Or get Diana due to the lasso fixing minds. I often wonder why will their be any good stories once normal Dick returns. Also what do you guys think about Dick going back to college? I have seen that thrown around a bit

----------


## Digifiend

> Or get Diana due to the lasso fixing minds.


A good point - was that ability established before the just completed Supergirl arc?

----------


## WonderNight

> Or get Diana due to the lasso fixing minds. I often wonder why will their be any good stories once normal Dick returns. Also what do you guys think about Dick going back to college? I have seen that thrown around a bit


well it's like lady nightwing said. When ric gets back to back to being dick he's just going to be terreding water and doing the same things as ric anyway.

Nightwing needs a serious status quo change and shack up. I believe nightwing needs to spin off into his own franchise like DC's other biggest heroes. Nightwing as a franchise could be on the same levels as the flash, green lantern and aquaman with his own mythos.

I'm just so tired of nightwing being nothing more than a supporting character for the bat mythos. Nightwing should be so much more than just another Robin and member of the batfamily. There's a reason why nightwing who's supposed to be is own hero is only seen as a member of batman's family and doesnt have a "night family" of his own (because supporting characters dosen't get family's of their own). Dick doesn't even get to have his own logo on his own book because it's NOT his book its batman's sidebook. That's why dick's own story's in "his" book comes second to the main batman book.

DC needs to spin nightwing off into his own franchise and start becoming a lead character of his own or hell trade him to another franchise like superman or wonder woman and be a supporting character over there. At least those franchise aren't over bloated and it'll be something new/fresh.

I'm just done with midcard nightwing I'm ready for main eventer nightwing. Rant over.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm just done with midcard nightwing I'm ready for main eventer nightwing. Rant over.


I think we are all right there with you.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious,  do you guys think for the first time Dick will not be in an animated series? So far we have Babs yet no Dick Grayson.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I'm curious,  do you guys think for the first time Dick will not be in an animated series? So far we have Babs yet no Dick Grayson.


Which series are you referring to?

----------


## Ascended

> Which series are you referring to?


I'm guessing the Harley Quinn show on the DCU app? I feel like Ami mentioned it in another thread or something somewhere. 

I'm fine with it. From what I've seen that show actually does a pretty good job translating characters to fit around it's premise without really compromising the character's core traits (except perhaps King Shark), so I'd *like* to see Nightwing there, and I'm not convinced he won't show up later on, but I'm cool with it if he doesn't. Dick doesn't have to be in "every" cartoon.

----------


## Pohzee

Less animated Dick and Harley may be for the better after that last movie lol

----------


## Ascended

That movie was fantastic, you uncultured philistines!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Drako



----------


## Frontier

> 


I thought Snyder was done with mainstream DC comics. I guess it's probably going to be Black Label. 

But yeah, this doesn't surprise me. He's always been more willing to write Dick of all the Robins (not counting Duke).

----------


## Ascended

> I thought Snyder was done with mainstream DC comics. I guess it's probably going to be Black Label.


I don't care whether it's Black Label or not, I'll take quality Nightwing where I can find it.

----------


## cc008

> 


So that this morning... good little treat to start the day

----------


## Rakiduam

> 


Oh yeah, the growing list of good writers with a Nightwing pitch. Crossing fingers DC say "yes" for a change

----------


## KC

> 


Finally some good news on the comic front for Dick. 

My hope is Synder has an idea so good that he has to do it as an ongoing story set in the main DC universe.

----------


## Ascended

If it's out of continuity I'm sure they will say yes. Snyder's one of their biggest writers so they'll probably let him have any pet project he wants if it keeps him happy. 

If it's in-continuity......I dunno if DC would want to "waste" their big talent on Nightwing's ongoing. But again, they want Snyder happy, so maybe if he agrees to do a big project in return they might let him have Nightwing?

Jim Lee did say he'd protect Dick "at all costs." Maybe, and I'm being optimistic here, but maybe Snyder getting the title is the first sign of that.

----------


## Rac7d*

Any chance of him being in the batgirl movie, with the birds of prey wasted on Harley, he is her only other frequent ally

----------


## OWL45

> If it's out of continuity I'm sure they will say yes. Snyder's one of their biggest writers so they'll probably let him have any pet project he wants if it keeps him happy. 
> 
> If it's in-continuity......I dunno if DC would want to "waste" their big talent on Nightwing's ongoing. But again, they want Snyder happy, so maybe if he agrees to do a big project in return they might let him have Nightwing?
> 
> Jim Lee did say he'd protect Dick "at all costs." Maybe, and I'm being optimistic here, but maybe Snyder getting the title is the first sign of that.


This is good news. I think because of who he is and status at DC it would be hard for them to say no but I could be wrong.

----------


## WonderNight

Who does synder have to pitch to besides Jim lee?

----------


## Ascended

> Any chance of him being in the batgirl movie, with the birds of prey wasted on Harley, he is her only other frequent ally


Hard pass. 

I doubt that Batgirl film is happening anyway. And given DC's track record it likely wouldn't be that good if it did get made. But Dick can carry his own film, he doesn't need to be a supporting player in Babs' movie. And I feel like a lot of Dick's interactions with Babs don't leave either of them looking too good, and that's a poor foundation to build from. 

I'd accept Dick as a supporting character in a Batman movie, just because of the history and that seems a more natural way to launch a solo film afterwards. But I've had it with Nightwing playing second fiddle to other people.  




> This is good news. I think because of who he is and status at DC it would be hard for them to say no but I could be wrong.


I agree. I think it is good news.

----------


## Badou

Snyder's generally done well by the character outside of a few instances, like the Owls punching scene, but he at least respects the character and likes including him in things. That being said I don't know if Snyder would actually write a Nightwing ongoing. I feel it would be more likely that he pitches an idea and someone else writes it for him. Unless he is now super passionate about the character the way a Johns is for Shazam I can't really see him wanting to write a Nightwing/Dick Grayson ongoing book as it feels something below what he usually does now, but who knows.

----------


## WonderNight

> Hard pass. 
> 
> I doubt that Batgirl film is happening anyway. And given DC's track record it likely wouldn't be that good if it did get made. But Dick can carry his own film, he doesn't need to be a supporting player in Babs' movie. And I feel like a lot of Dick's interactions with Babs don't leave either of them looking too good, and that's a poor foundation to build from. 
> 
> I'd accept Dick as a supporting character in a Batman movie, just because of the history and that seems a more natural way to launch a solo film afterwards. But I've had it with Nightwing playing second fiddle to other people.


Thank you. The last thing nightwing needs is to be introduced to the mainstream as a supporting character for freak'in batgirl. Running around gotham like he's just one of batman's sidekicks. Nightwing first introduction needs to be as a independent hero who connects back to batman.

I don't want Nightwing to be the falcon of the dceu.

If I was being dick in to the dceu I'd start with a nightwing movie that has some flash back to batman and Robin than build to a reunion in sequels.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> 


Make it happen Dc! Black Mirror was great!

----------


## Pohzee

Haven't like anything Snyder has written in nearly 7-8 years. And it'll probably be the Court. But I don't care. Dick needs this. DC is never gonna let a C-list writer do anything meaningful with the character. Snyder will do something

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

I’m curious how would people feel about a Nightwing and Babs Batgirl co-leading a team up movie with both their names in the title basically like Ant-man and the Wasp. Might be a better hook and help differentiate from being Batman lite in a way a solo Nightwing flick might be at risk or becoming.

----------


## WonderNight

> Im curious how would people feel about a Nightwing and Babs Batgirl co-leading a team up movie with both their names in the title basically like Ant-man and the Wasp. Might be a better hook and help differentiate from being Batman lite in a way a solo Nightwing flick might be at risk or becoming.


Nightwing won't come across as batman lite if he's a globetrotting hero. With is one of the main reasons I want it in the comics. Batman's solo movies (and comics) will always revolve around his city Gotham nightwing globetrotting would be something different.

Nightwing/batgirl would be worse than batman lite. He'd be Robin lite.

But now that rumor of the new batman movies are stand alone and disconnect from the rest of the dceu. Nightwing could take batman's place in the dceu. Just like they were about to do with supergirl taking over superman.

----------


## Claude

> Snyder's generally done well by the character outside of a few instances, like the Owls punching scene, but he at least respects the character and likes including him in things. That being said I don't know if Snyder would actually write a Nightwing ongoing. I feel it would be more likely that he pitches an idea and someone else writes it for him. Unless he is now super passionate about the character the way a Johns is for Shazam I can't really see him wanting to write a Nightwing/Dick Grayson ongoing book as it feels something below what he usually does now, but who knows.


You talk your usual sense, but how ongoing is "ongoing" these days? The first six or twelve issues of a "Nightwing" series by Snyder would be a huge leap-up for whatever followed.

I wouldn't even mind if the Court were involved again - although I'd hope for something a bit fresher.

(And for it not to be co-written with Tynion.)


Actually, that's a question for the group - if someone like Snyder came in for a single, high profile maxi-series "Nightwing" story, what would be best to be done with the villain? Someone/a bunch of new people like Black Mirror did? An existing Dick Villain like Raptor, Blockbuster, Minos or Pyg? Or lay a claim to Batman villains that Dick has a particular history with, like Two Face or the Owls?

I wouldn't mind a proper recontextualising of Deathstroke as a Nightwing/Titans villain rather than a Batman one - but we may be too late on that one.

----------


## WonderNight

> You talk your usual sense, but how ongoing is "ongoing" these days? The first six or twelve issues of a "Nightwing" series by Snyder would be a huge leap-up for whatever followed.
> 
> I wouldn't even mind if the Court were involved again - although I'd hope for something a bit fresher.
> 
> (And for it not to be co-written with Tynion.)
> 
> 
> Actually, that's a question for the group - if someone like Snyder came in for a single, high profile maxi-series "Nightwing" story, what would be best to be done with the villain? Someone/a bunch of new people like Black Mirror did? An existing Dick Villain like Raptor, Blockbuster, Minos or Pyg? Or lay a claim to Batman villains that Dick has a particular history with, like Two Face or the Owls?
> 
> I wouldn't mind a proper recontextualising of Deathstroke as a Nightwing/Titans villain rather than a Batman one - but we may be too late on that one.


For me I just hope for synder to reboot nightwing with a new status quo and direction so nightwing can progress and grow as a franchise.

Nightwing going back to the same old things post ric would be such a waste.

----------


## Restingvoice

Well, whether it's canon or not, let's see if there are people who feels like Snyder's best-selling talent is wasted in writing Nightwing

----------


## Badou

> You talk your usual sense, but how ongoing is "ongoing" these days? The first six or twelve issues of a "Nightwing" series by Snyder would be a huge leap-up for whatever followed.


I'd never complain if Snyder wants to use Dick's character for something, especially given the awful state the character has been in for a while now. It's just Snyder doesn't really look at or take on small projects anymore, which is maybe good if he is interested in using Dick's character, but he tends to do really BIG stories that expand into even more stories, so I can't picture him doing a small 10-12 issue Nightwing run. I also have a tough time imagining DC putting a big name like Snyder on book with Dick/Nightwing as the focus given how they treat the character now, so maybe it would be someone else scripting Snyders' ideas. I really am just unsure.

But I'd take anything. Not like we have anything to lose. Even if it is just Snyder wanting to use Dick in another non Nightwing book. Maybe that will make it feel like Dick is part of the DCU again and have some kind of presence beyond his own title, which he basically hasn't had in the 9 years since the New 52 started. Or it could even be a Black Label book that is completely separated from everything with the DCU. Anything would be better than what we have.

----------


## Ascended

> I’m curious how would people feel about a Nightwing and Babs Batgirl co-leading a team up movie with both their names in the title basically like Ant-man and the Wasp. Might be a better hook and help differentiate from being Batman lite in a way a solo Nightwing flick might be at risk or becoming.


Still a hard pass from me. I mean, obviously if the trailers looked good I'd give it a shot, but I'm not even a tiny bit interested in Nightwing and Babs teaming up. That would be a big mark against the movie for me, and I don't think it would help Dick at all. He doesn't need Babs to sell a movie, and given the overlap in fanbases I don't think Babs would gain much box office from Dick's presence either. 




> Actually, that's a question for the group - if someone like Snyder came in for a single, high profile maxi-series "Nightwing" story, what would be best to be done with the villain? Someone/a bunch of new people like Black Mirror did? An existing Dick Villain like Raptor, Blockbuster, Minos or Pyg? Or lay a claim to Batman villains that Dick has a particular history with, like Two Face or the Owls?


I'd be fine with whatever villain fits the story. It'd probably be the Court of Owls though. Not my first choice, but I'm not against the idea either. I'd personally like to see Pyg and his Circus of Strange or Blockbuster, Kathy Webb-Kane, or HIVE.

Also, anyone else find it funny that CBR ran a story on this? You know things are slow when this site is taking a tweet like Snyder's and writing articles about it.

----------


## Digifiend

> You talk your usual sense, but how ongoing is "ongoing" these days? The first six or twelve issues of a "Nightwing" series by Snyder would be a huge leap-up for whatever followed.


You never know... look how long Williamson's been on Flash, or how long King was on Batman. Both 80+ issues.

----------


## L.H.

Months ago, Snyder said he was planning to write a Wonder Woman story and a Nightwing run. I don't know if Death Metal will turn in a WW story, but I'm pretty sure his pitch is about a Nightwing ongoing

----------


## Ascended

It could very well be the ongoing. I hope it is, Nightwing needs a high profile creator, and someone who can stick around for more than 12 issues and really establish something. Snyder might be DC's biggest name right now and he's definitely capable of long runs. He's got my blessing. I said long ago that Dick needs someone at AT&T/WB to take notice of him, or a big creator who can do what they want. Well, with everything that's happened since Didio left DC's bosses might be paying attention and Snyder's got the juice to do the projects he wants to do, so.....maybe if the gods are kind we're getting what we need to bring Nightwing out of this horrible slump.

Whatever Snyder does, if he actually does anything with Nightwing, I just hope it's not Bat-lite. I want that dark Silver Age vibe that Seeley (and even Percy, from what little I read of his run) did; aliens and monsters and crazy locations as well as mobsters and smugglers and psychopaths.

Snyder on the book would be a huge benefit regardless, but f*ck am I tired of Dick being written like nothing more than a Gotham sidekick, doing Gotham style things.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

If they wanna give Snyder Nightwing instead of Wonder Woman I'd be for it.

If only because Nightwing needs it far more and there is nowhere to go but up at this point, whereas what little we've seen of his setup for Wonder Woman seems like a downgrade from Rucka's Rebirth run.

----------


## Digifiend

TPB name - The Return of Dick Grayson. Ric will be gone by issue 75!
https://www.penguinrandomhouseretail...=9781779507433

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious Jason and Dick. Frenemies or Bros?

----------


## cc008

> TPB name - The Return of Dick Grayson. Ric will be gone by issue 75!
> https://www.penguinrandomhouseretail...=9781779507433


Happy Easter indeed!!!

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm curious Jason and Dick. Frenemies or Bros?


Distant cousin,   Relatives you see twice a year

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious if DC ever did this whole Dick has a kid would it be a good or bad idea?  I mean the issue is we know it won't last.

----------


## WonderNight

> If they wanna give Snyder Nightwing instead of Wonder Woman I'd be for it.
> 
> If only because Nightwing needs it far more and there is nowhere to go but up at this point, whereas what little we've seen of his setup for Wonder Woman seems like a downgrade from Rucka's Rebirth run.


Can't synder do both? I'd love him on both my favorite characters both what did he do to downgrade diana?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm curious if DC ever did this whole Dick has a kid would it be a good or bad idea?  I mean the issue is we know it won't last.


Only in Elseworlds, like Kingdom Come and Nightwing: New Order. And I think New52 Earth 2? 

The first two were with Starfire, the last with Babs.

Oh yeah, and a daughter currently in Batman Beyond comics.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Can't Synder do both? I'd love him on both my favorite characters both what did he do to downgrade Diana?


Oh it's just because Rucka is considered the best Wonder Woman writer while Snyder's decision and storytelling is divisive




> I'm curious Jason and Dick. Frenemies or Bros?


Bros

----------


## Claude

> Happy Easter indeed!!!


He is risen!

And please God, no _way_ Jurgens stays on, right?




> I'm curious Jason and Dick. Frenemies or Bros?


Foes, not bros - add a bit of texture to it. Establish that Dick should be the _only_ member of the bat family who finds themselves in opposition to Jason - and make that a source of tension for both characters in their relationships with the others. Fully estranged brothers, kill the whole "Robin Boyband" thing.

----------


## L.H.

> I'm curious if DC ever did this whole Dick has a kid would it be a good or bad idea?  I mean the issue is we know it won't last.


Add to Jackalope89 list another daughter in Last Knight on Earth, Bryce. Her mother is Babs.
Also, I remember a timeline in Justice Lords (Batman Beyond) where Dick and Babs are married and have a son.
I'd love to have Mar'i from Kingdom Come as canon, together with the others Titans kids. Her love story with Damian is great.

----------


## Ascended

Nightwing returns in 75? Until I see it on the page I won't believe it. Haven't we thought Dick was getting fixed and been wrong before? Sorry DC, you get nothing from me until I see things put right. I got nothing for you DC. No trust. Liar.

Dick having a kid? How about we get him back on solid ground, and with a unique (but fitting) purpose, direction, and status quo first? Then, sure, absolutely. I even got a plan to bring Mar'i into the main canon. 

Dick and Jason? I don't want Jason counted among the heroes. He's far more interesting as the Punisher of the DCU, and therefore any Bat should want to bring him down and bring him in. It can be bittersweet, sure, and that conflict might be set aside in the face of a greater Crisis (just like heroes will work with Deathstroke or Harley when sh*t gets real) but the Red Hood should be the dude who straight up kills criminals, with no remorse, not the "bad boy" in casa de Wayne.

----------


## Celgress

> Nightwing returns in 75? Until I see it on the page I won't believe it.....


Same here, I have zero faith left in the DC Office when Nightwing is involved. *sigh*  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Gray Lensman

> I'm curious Jason and Dick. Frenemies or Bros?


I liked the dynamic best when Jason was a punisher type when Dick wore the cowl - Jason was basically Dick's personal Joker.

----------


## Artemisfanboy

> Months ago, Snyder said he was planning to write a Wonder Woman story and a Nightwing run. I don't know if Death Metal will turn in a WW story, but I'm pretty sure his pitch is about a Nightwing ongoing


I remember him saying he was going to do a JSA series, retelling their origins, which would include Wonder Woman quite prominently. I'm hoping he can do both that and Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> I remember him saying he was going to do a JSA series, retelling their origins, which would include Wonder Woman quite prominently. I'm hoping he can do both that and Nightwing.


I wonder what Snyder's JSA would look like? I tend to prefer them with a good dose of pulp, and I wouldn't argue against rubbing some old school Golden Age "war comics" in there either, honestly. 

Whatever he'd do with the JSA I'd hope it wouldn't just be a repeat of his JL. I enjoyed his run (I'm a sucker for big Morrison-esque cosmic crap) for the most part but I don't want to read it again with the JSA'ers.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I liked the dynamic best when Jason was a punisher type when Dick wore the cowl - Jason was basically Dick's personal Joker.


Yes I like this as well.

I don't see any reason why they should like each other or consider each other brothers even when Jason is counted among the heroes (and I have to agree with Ascended's viewpoint here). Dick is close with Tim and Damian, he never really had the chance to  be very close to Jason pre-Death in the Family, and I don't see why he would suddenly be close to him post-Red Hood.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Timothee Chalamet... which Robin is he playing? My guess is Dick (because the Reeves'movie is partially based on Long Halloween) or at least Damian

----------


## Rakiduam

> Timothee Chalamet... which Robin is he playing? My guess is Dick (because the Reeves'movie is partially based on Long Halloween) or at least Damian


....What?!

----------


## K7P5V

> I'm curious if DC ever did this whole Dick has a kid would it be a good or bad idea?  I mean the issue is we know it won't last.


If we're going to bring up Dick watching over a kid, then my all-time favorite is Grayson & Bat-Baby:






> I'd love to have Mar'i from Kingdom Come as canon, together with the others Titans kids. Her love story with Damian is great.


Agreed. Even though Dick was against it, the relationship Mar'i had with Ibn al Xu'ffasch was most enjoyable.  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Timothee Chalamet... which Robin is he playing? My guess is Dick (because the Reeves'movie is partially based on Long Halloween) or at least Damian


If he aint Asian he gonna get hell

----------


## AmiMizuno

What makes Mari likable?

----------


## Restingvoice

> ....What?!


cbr wishlist

----------


## batnbreakfast

> cbr wishlist


Must be the isolation. Hurts my thinking. He's in Dune and I thought... there's our guy

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> If we're going to bring up Dick watching over a kid, then my all-time favorite is Grayson & Bat-Baby:


I don't care what DC decides is officially in canon (this week) or not, for me this whole bat-shit event still 100% happened.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. So I know in New Order Mari is there and Dick did have a son. Should they ever be in cannon? By that even if Dick doesn't get with Starfire she still exist in the mutiverse.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Okay. So I know in New Order Mari is there and Dick did have a son. Should they ever be in cannon? By that even if Dick doesn't get with Starfire she still exist in the mutiverse.


Mari in New Order? Not to my knowledge. It was just the son in that one.

Personally though? Not a fan of the IbnxMar'i thing, as at this point in time, she would be his niece. But I would like to see her brought in.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. What if to make Dick more independent he goes back to the Cirus. I know that Haley's circus is taken over. But shouldn't that be an arc? Is Dick getting the Court to leave?    what if Dc just skipped and made Nightwing a movie. Didn't do a origin.Just a simple flashback

----------


## WonderNight

> Mari in New Order? Not to my knowledge. It was just the son in that one.
> 
> Personally though? Not a fan of the IbnxMar'i thing, as at this point in time, she would be his niece. But I would like to see her brought in.


Mar'I will never be brought in as long as nightwing's in the bat office.

----------


## WonderNight

> Okay. What if to make Dick more independent he goes back to the Cirus. I know that Haley's circus is taken over. But shouldn't that be an arc? Is Dick getting the Court to leave?What if Dc just skipped and made Nightwing a movie. Didn't do a origin.Just a simple flashback


either what is happening with the batman movie they should fast track a nightwing movie.

Like I've said as long as dick's in the bat office he'll never be as independent as he should be. Maybe DC should change his name from nightwing to BatBoy! 

The way he is right now it fits him better.

----------


## Godlike13

> Mar'I will never be brought in as long as nightwing's in the bat office.


What is there to bring back? Mar’i was never brought into main existence in the first place. She is more relevant on tumblr then she ever has been in comics.

----------


## Badou

The circus isn't a strong enough setting to put him there permanently. It's fine for an arc, or at least it was until the Owls kind of ruined the "going back home" appeal it used to have I think, but it isn't a place where you can tell multiple stories without running into problems. It doesnt have the breadth of resources to tell unique stories for long without falling into bad ideas or trappings of the past. Maybe if it had been used differently over the years Id feel differently, but I just dont think it works as a long term setting. So I'm fine with it just being closed down and Mr. Harley being retired if you want to bring them back from the dead.

Also it isn't a contemporary setting that works for modern stories. People dont really view or go to the circus anymore like they did in the past. So even though comics are fantasy youd be fighting against that. Although that doesnt mean I want them to change Dicks origin as the classic circus setting is still iconic even if they have fallen out of favor. Their colorful tent poles, performers, clowns, freak shows, animals, and ringmasters are all types of imagery that are iconic in America. Which is why when you tell stories of Dicks past you can kind of break away from the modern sensibilities and setting to play around with those iconic imagery easier I feel like.  

Of course there are still things you can do with Halys Circus. It isnt useless. DC is releasing that original graphic novel about Dicks past in the circus, but you can do other things with it as well. Its a place that has been in the DCU forever and it is surprising DC connected so few characters to it. Youd think it would be this place where DC could pull all these weird and strange characters from, like a Deadman, magic users, or all these crazy Gotham villains, but they just never did.

Ive thought about this for a while, but the single most interesting thing that has ever been done with the circus was what the Gotham TV show did with it. It was so brilliant I couldnt believe that no DC comic writer didnt already do it before. Which was to connect the Joker to Halys Circus. It feels so obvious. The most well-known villain in comics is a clown and you have an iconic character in Dick that is from the circus. How no one connected the dots before is unbelievable. 

Now I didnt like how the Gotham show went about connecting the Joker to Halys Circus, but the idea of just giving him some connection to it feels so obvious and it opens the door to a lot more stories while also propping up Halys. Just have the Joker as a young man (obviously before Batman was around) go work at Halys Circus and it could be where he developed his clown persona and his theatrical abilities. 

You dont need to go into who he was before that, he could have even used some fake name at the time, and it all still fits with who the character is. You could have him know who Mr. Haly was, him know Dicks parents, and even have him meet and know a very young Dick Grayson which would be very creepy and eerie. It allows you to tie these new connections and build new stories off of them. Then just have the Joker leave some time before Bruce becomes Batman and nothing is lost. This would make for a good Black Label DC book given it seems they only make Black Label books about Batman, Joker or Harley Quinn, haha.

----------


## Drako

Pretty cool fan art by Vasco GEORGIEV:
https://twitter.com/vascogeorgiev/st...36524758859776

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The circus isn't a strong enough setting to put him there permanently. It's fine for an arc, or at least it was until the Owls kind of ruined the "going back home" appeal it used to have I think, but it isn't a place where you can tell multiple stories without running into problems. It doesn’t have the breadth of resources to tell unique stories for long without falling into bad ideas or trappings of the past. Maybe if it had been used differently over the years I’d feel differently, but I just don’t think it works as a long term setting. So I'm fine with it just being closed down and Mr. Harley being retired if you want to bring them back from the dead.
> 
> Also it isn't a contemporary setting that works for modern stories. People don’t really view or go to the circus anymore like they did in the past. So even though comics are fantasy you’d be fighting against that. Although that doesn’t mean I want them to change Dick’s origin as the classic circus setting is still iconic even if they have fallen out of favor. Their colorful tent poles, performers, clowns, freak shows, animals, and ringmasters are all types of imagery that are iconic in America. Which is why when you tell stories of Dick’s past you can kind of break away from the modern sensibilities and setting to play around with those iconic imagery easier I feel like.  
> 
> Of course there are still things you can do with Haly’s Circus. It isn’t useless. DC is releasing that original graphic novel about Dick’s past in the circus, but you can do other things with it as well. It’s a place that has been in the DCU forever and it is surprising DC connected so few characters to it. You’d think it would be this place where DC could pull all these weird and strange characters from, like a Deadman, magic users, or all these crazy Gotham villains, but they just never did.
> 
> I’ve thought about this for a while, but the single most interesting thing that has ever been done with the circus was what the Gotham TV show did with it. It was so brilliant I couldn’t believe that no DC comic writer didn’t already do it before. Which was to connect the Joker to Haly’s Circus. It feels so obvious. The most well-known villain in comics is a clown and you have an iconic character in Dick that is from the circus. How no one connected the dots before is unbelievable. 
> 
> Now I didn’t like how the Gotham show went about connecting the Joker to Haly’s Circus, but the idea of just giving him some connection to it feels so obvious and it opens the door to a lot more stories while also propping up Haly’s. Just have the Joker as a young man (obviously before Batman was around) go work at Haly’s Circus and it could be where he developed his clown persona and his theatrical abilities. 
> ...


I had an idea. That Haley Circus is a cover. Dick is traveling City to City. Hunting down criminals. Well if we are going to keep him in Bludhaven easiest way is the casinos. He is one of the best acrobat shows they ever had.

----------


## WonderNight

I still believe dick should adopt YJ.Outsiders global meta human trafficking as his mission/direction. It fit a non superpowered titans DCU character that nightwing should be.

We already have enough bats in citys to go around.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I still believe dick should adopt YJ.Outsiders global meta human trafficking as his mission/direction. It fit a non superpowered titans DCU character that nightwing should be.
> 
> We already have enough bats in citys to go around.


That was his relaunched titans team MO and it was bad

----------


## Digifiend

The book wasn't bad. But it definitely got screwed over by editorial, and in hindsight, they should've had Kyle instead of Dick from the start. Dick getting shot and suddenly being gone derailed the book, leading to it getting axed.

----------


## CPSparkles

Nightwing by Seeley





https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley


Discowing by Jimenez



https://twitter.com/Philjimeneznyc

----------


## Godlike13

> The book wasn't bad. But it definitely got screwed over by editorial, and in hindsight, they should've had Kyle instead of Dick from the start. Dick getting shot and suddenly being gone derailed the book, leading to it getting axed.


Book was trash. Editorial excuses aside, how it chose to present its characters was awful and nonsensical. While it’s stories were formulaic and pointless. Ultimately going nowhere and saying nothing. Book accomplished nothing, and left every character involved worse off. 
Abnett is as bad as Lobdell and Jurgan’s. Another complacent writer going through the motions, with little to no real forethought put into what he was actually doing, nor care towards the characters he was writing. He did little more then wipe his butt with Dick’s character for 2 years strait, yet as soon as Dick was unavailable his book couldn’t last beyond an arc. It’d be laughable if it wasn’t sad.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Book was trash. Editorial excuses aside, how it chose to present its characters was awful and nonsensical. While it’s stories were formulaic and pointless. Ultimately going nowhere and saying nothing. Book accomplished nothing, and left every character involved worse off. 
> Abnett is as bad as Lobdell and Jurgan’s. Another complacent writer going through the motions, with little to no real forethought put into what he was actually doing, nor care towards the characters he was writing. He did little more then wipe his butt with Dick’s character for 2 years strait, yet as soon as Dick was unavailable his book couldn’t last beyond an arc. It’d be laughable if it wasn’t sad.


I preferred the fab five doing FRIENDS in Manhattan

----------


## Digifiend

> Book was trash. Editorial excuses aside, how it chose to present its characters was awful and nonsensical. While it’s stories were formulaic and pointless. Ultimately going nowhere and saying nothing. Book accomplished nothing, and left every character involved worse off. 
> Abnett is as bad as Lobdell and Jurgan’s. Another complacent writer going through the motions, with little to no real forethought put into what he was actually doing, nor care towards the characters he was writing. He did little more then wipe his butt with Dick’s character for 2 years strait, yet as soon as Dick was unavailable his book couldn’t last beyond an arc. It’d be laughable if it wasn’t sad.


It wasn't perfect. I did think Steel was bland, there was nothing that made her stand out from Ironheart over at Marvel even though Natasha's been around far longer than Riri (and bear in mind how many people complain about Riri!). I think they only used her because they couldn't use Cyborg, who editorial insists is in a Justice League title, and didn't care about the girl behind the mask. She was just there to be the team's techie.

And the book did focus too much on Dick, who like I said, in hindsight shouldn't have even been in the book. But there's plenty of worse series than New Justice Titans.

----------


## Digifiend

> Nightwing by Seeley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/HackinTimSeeley


Hair's a bit long for that costume isn't it? Thought he only had long hair with the 1991 costume?

----------


## Ascended

I didn't know Seeley could draw. Nice work.

Nice to see Dick with longer hair too. That length is definitely my preferred look for him, regardless of the costume.

But what's up with the fishnets on his forearms? I don't remember that from any costume?

Actually, speaking of hair.....Dick's had a lot of haircuts over the years, short, long, medium length, clean and slick, messy....do we think Dick should have one single haircut the way Superman and most other characters do (discounting the occasional mullet), or should Dick try to stick with the times and change his 'do occasionally? I could see him rocking one of those viking style cuts that seem popular right now....long on top, shaved on the sides and back....what's it called, a undercut or something? Damian has something like that too, only it's still fairly short on top.

Obviously a modern haircut could end up looking dated after a while, but that doesn't seem like much of a hurdle if you ask me. We might shake our heads at Superman's 90's mullet, but it doesn't really ruin the reading or anything.

----------


## redmax99

> I didn't know Seeley could draw. Nice work.
> 
> Nice to see Dick with longer hair too. That length is definitely my preferred look for him, regardless of the costume.
> 
> But what's up with the fishnets on his forearms? I don't remember that from any costume?
> 
> Actually, speaking of hair.....Dick's had a lot of haircuts over the years, short, long, medium length, clean and slick, messy....do we think Dick should have one single haircut the way Superman and most other characters do (discounting the occasional mullet), or should Dick try to stick with the times and change his 'do occasionally? I could see him rocking one of those viking style cuts that seem popular right now....long on top, shaved on the sides and back....what's it called, a undercut or something? Damian has something like that too, only it's still fairly short on top.
> 
> Obviously a modern haircut could end up looking dated after a while, but that doesn't seem like much of a hurdle if you ask me. We might shake our heads at Superman's 90's mullet, but it doesn't really ruin the reading or anything.


It Should be at a length anything pass his shoulders is a no.I remember the mullet that turned into something else all togather, i thought the hair was helping him in fights at times same with superman. the one year later hair from brothers in blood should be the cut off length for him.

----------


## Digifiend

> Actually, speaking of hair.....Dick's had a lot of haircuts over the years, short, long, medium length, clean and slick, messy....do we think Dick should have one single haircut the way Superman and most other characters do (discounting the occasional mullet), or should Dick try to stick with the times and change his 'do occasionally? I could see him rocking one of those viking style cuts that seem popular right now....long on top, shaved on the sides and back....what's it called, a undercut or something? Damian has something like that too, only it's still fairly short on top.


Damian's haircut is really just a classic short back and sides, lol.

----------


## WonderNight

> That was his relaunched titans team MO and it was bad


1. That wasn't dick MO as a solo hero.

2. By that logic dick shouldn't have a city either because it was bad.

----------


## Ascended

The first time I saw Nightwing, he had the blue and yellow costume (still a good design I think) and his hair was shoulder length, but when I became a fan he had just got the black-blue costume and had the full on ass-length ponytail. 

I was glad when it was cut short again during a fight, and went back to shoulder length (or maybe just slightly shorter than that). That ponytail was ridiculous even by 90's standards. 

But for me, shoulder length is just right. I really dislike Dick having a short cut. Maybe I'm just jealous of his great hair.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Godlike13

> It wasn't perfect. I did think Steel was bland, there was nothing that made her stand out from Ironheart over at Marvel even though Natasha's been around far longer than Riri (and bear in mind how many people complain about Riri!). I think they only used her because they couldn't use Cyborg, who editorial insists is in a Justice League title, and didn't care about the girl behind the mask. She was just there to be the team's techie.
> 
> And the book did focus too much on Dick, who like I said, in hindsight shouldn't have even been in the book. But there's plenty of worse series than New Justice Titans.


Except the book didn’t focus on Dick, it just need him there to exists. Despite how it choose to present his character. He had no character arc or journey beyond look how awful I am. He was solely there to help facilitate and it made him continually pay for it. It was poorly thought out and just made a further mockery of the team.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm a bit of a square, but I prefer Dick with the clean cut look now. The long hair works for a just graduated and rebellious Robin stepping out onto his own, but he's no longer in that place right now. With two ex-Robin's behind him, he's lost his edge and had to step into mode of a leadership role.

That said... I really dig Seeley's drawing there.

----------


## Jackalope89

Dick's hair from YJ season 2 on is about ideal, for me anyway.

----------


## Ascended

> I'm a bit of a square, but I prefer Dick with the clean cut look now. The long hair works for a just graduated and rebellious Robin stepping out onto his own, but he's no longer in that place right now. With two ex-Robin's behind him, he's lost his edge and had to step into mode of a leadership role.
> 
> That said... I really dig Seeley's drawing there.


I dunno man, Dick's only like 25 or so. He's still pretty damn young. And I don't think long hair is considered edgy anymore anyway?

Is shoulder length even considered long, or just medium?




> Dick's hair from YJ season 2 on is about ideal, for me anyway.


It's a tad shorter than I'd like personally, but this right here is my #2 choice. He looks great on YJ. If only the comics treated him so well!  :Frown: 

I mean, really, all that matters is that he has fabulous hair.  :Big Grin:  But if Dick's supposed to be DC's official male sex symbol I feel like they could lean into it a bit and let him change his look now and then to match what's considered fashionable at any given time.

Oh, as a totally random aside, has anyone noticed that with the YJ emblem, if you drew a line between the top corners of the wings you'd have a Superman "S" shield style shape? Subtle shout out to his uncle, or design coincidence? You decide!!!!

----------


## Digifiend

YJ Superman isn't even close to Conner, let alone Dick.

----------


## Shamrock Holmes

> I dunno man, Dick's only like 25 or so. He's still pretty damn young. And I don't think long hair is considered edgy any more anyway? Is shoulder length even considered long, or just medium?


Considering that his age was given as twenty during _Crisis on Infinite Earths_, I'd consider that unlikely assuming that you mean post-Rebirth and not during the redicuously inconsistent deaging period of Nu52, where he was called out as being only _twenty-one_... that's Jason or more likely Tim based on the usual figures. I believe shoulder length hair is usually considered long for a guy and medium for a woman.





> YJ Superman isn't even close to Conner, let alone Dick.


I agree that YJ!Superman isn't close to Nightwing, however him not being close to Connor only lasted through s1, by _Invasion_ he had given Connor a personal "nickname" (Kon-El) and towards the end of _Outsiders_ they are close enough that Conner asks him to be his _best man_ (rather than Dick, Kaldur or one of the Harpers) which isn't something that you do for someone you're "not close too".

----------


## Ascended

> YJ Superman isn't even close to Conner, let alone Dick.


I didn't mean in that specific continuity, just as a kind of quiet shout out to the characters' history. 




> Considering that his age was given as twenty during _Crisis on Infinite Earths_, I'd consider that unlikely assuming that you mean post-Rebirth and not during the redicuously inconsistent deaging period of Nu52, where he was called out as being only _twenty-one_... that's Jason or more likely Tim based on the usual figures


If we hadn't had things derailed by the New52, I'd guess Dick is around 28 or so now, give or take a year or two. I don't know if Rebirth changed Dick's age, unless we're including a ripple effect from stuff like Superman Reborn. Rebirth continuity is as messed up as New52 continuity, so I figured I'd split the difference between the 52's idiotic "Dick is only 21" crap and what I figure would be his proper age if not for reboots and Manhattan nonsense.

Either way, dude is still young.




> I believe shoulder length hair is usually considered long for a guy and medium for a woman.


Could be? I'm pretty far from an expert in hair.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

On the topic of logos, I find it pretty interesting that some of Wonder Woman's costumes, including the movie, feature an eagle's head on her armor, one that looks similar to Nightwing's. There's no canonical basis for it, but I do think it would be cool to add a connection to her in the formation of the Nightwing identity as well. The idea being that growing up with the Trinity led him to draw inspiration from all three of them. Rather than just Superman and Batman.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I didn't know Seeley could draw. Nice work.
> 
> Nice to see Dick with longer hair too. That length is definitely my preferred look for him, regardless of the costume.
> 
> But what's up with the fishnets on his forearms? I don't remember that from any costume?
> 
> Actually, speaking of hair.....Dick's had a lot of haircuts over the years, short, long, medium length, clean and slick, messy....do we think Dick should have one single haircut the way Superman and most other characters do (discounting the occasional mullet), or should Dick try to stick with the times and change his 'do occasionally? I could see him rocking one of those viking style cuts that seem popular right now....long on top, shaved on the sides and back....what's it called, a undercut or something? Damian has something like that too, only it's still fairly short on top.
> 
> Obviously a modern haircut could end up looking dated after a while, but that doesn't seem like much of a hurdle if you ask me. We might shake our heads at Superman's 90's mullet, but it doesn't really ruin the reading or anything.


If we go by the usual definition that Dick is supposed to be the young and sexy one, the idealized young man that youth follows and idolize... the trendsetter, then he should do whatever trendy hair at any given era. His long hair in the 90s and the mullet was because it was trendy at that time. 

That said, Jason is younger and more around that college-age where you experiment with hair, and they did give him the undercut. Not many people like that, and right now Jason fans already love Dexter Soy's depiction. Cut short, then completed with Adidas-inspired sporty clothing. 

They seem to have settled for short shaggy hair for Dick, but depending on the artist's and situation it's either unkempt or styled. Barrows and whoever draws for Percy's arc gave him the unkempt look, Minkyu Jung styled more like Korean boyband, and Marcus To goes for anime, but they're pretty much the same length.

So I guess Dick should be more of a young professional age where he already has a steady look, but since he's not on the job often and he's a messy person, a shaggy look fits him well. 

It can be styled for a date, arranged neatly for work, unkempt when he's on his own, and giving that windswept look when he's on rooftops to go along with his handsome face but short enough that it's not getting in the way of his eyes.

----------


## K. Jones

> On the topic of logos, I find it pretty interesting that some of Wonder Woman's costumes, including the movie, feature an eagle's head on her armor, one that looks similar to Nightwing's. There's no canonical basis for it, but I do think it would be cool to add a connection to her in the formation of the Nightwing identity as well. The idea being that growing up with the Trinity led him to draw inspiration from all three of them. Rather than just Superman and Batman.


He is the Boy WONDER, after all.

We all know the DC Trinity is actually secretly a Quartet and Dick Grayson is that D'Artagnon.

----------


## Ascended

> He is the Boy WONDER, after all.
> 
> We all know the DC Trinity is actually secretly a Quartet and Dick Grayson is that D'Artagnon.


Damn straight.

I'd be fine with Diana having more of an influence on young Dick's life, but at this point we can barely get DC to recognize Dick's established relationships outside of Gotham, so giving Diana extra weight seems damn unlikely.  :Frown: 




> If we go by the usual definition that Dick is supposed to be the young and sexy one, the idealized young man that youth follows and idolize... the trendsetter, then he should do whatever trendy hair at any given era. His long hair in the 90s and the mullet was because it was trendy at that time. 
> 
> That said, Jason is younger and more around that college-age where you experiment with hair, and they did give him the undercut. Not many people like that, and right now Jason fans already love Dexter Soy's depiction. Cut short, then completed with Adidas-inspired sporty clothing.


It's true that Jason is closer to that "experimental college" age, but he never struck me as the kind of guy who'd pay much attention to this sort of thing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Damn straight.
> 
> I'd be fine with Diana having more of an influence on young Dick's life, but at this point we can barely get DC to recognize Dick's established relationships outside of Gotham, so giving Diana extra weight seems damn unlikely. 
> 
> 
> 
> It's true that Jason is closer to that "experimental college" age, but he never struck me as the kind of guy who'd pay much attention to this sort of thing.


considering. He woke up 18 I doubt he cares

----------


## dropkickjake

I'm a big fan of the shaggy look for him. I think he should look like he *had* a nice haircut, but constantly needs to get back to the barber.

Saw the blue and yellow costume come up as well, so I'm gonna use that as a jumping off point for one of my controversial Nightwing opinions: His costume really SHOULD be blue and yellow still. Honestly the two tones of blue + gold from his titans day work great with his current iconography. The black and blue suit was literally an attempt to make him seem more like batman, darker and edgier. The blue and yellow feels more like something a performer would wear. I'd like the current costume in a dark blue, with a gold chevron/bird head. and lightblue mask, gloves, and boots.

----------


## Ascended

I've wondered if it's time to put a little more color back into Dick's costume as well. I really did love the blue-yellow one from the early 90's.

I'm not sure though; the blue-black look he's had for the last twenty-odd years is extremely well known and is the look he's had in every larger media appearance, except for one of those animated movies that did the New52 black-red, I think? If we can say that Nightwing has a "iconic" design, it's the blue-black costume, and changing that too drastically might be a step backwards for his brand recognition. 

Perhaps a fusion, where we take the blue-black and add in some yellow or something, would work? But really, I think the blue-black is a good look; easy to tweak without losing the overall design sensibility, it looks good, and it's Nightwing's most well known costume.

----------


## Godlike13

Every new costume now more or less just illiterates his costume peaked in the 00’s. Because they’re all just variations of that basic outline. Now don’t get me wrong, I like that costume, but I’m not liking how the variations of it are getting simpler and simpler. To be just a black jump suit with a symbol in the middle. Though at the same time a costume can be too busy, like his new Robin costume. So i don't know, i guess simpler is still better than that.

----------


## Drako

If this costume was blue, it would be my favorite ever. He has the gauntlet that serves as a utility belt, has that spikes in his arms, reminiscing of his time as Batman, the stripes, a lot a cool details. I really like this suit.

The only bad part is the red.

----------


## Pohzee

I've had the same thought that the blue and yellow look would probably be a better representation of the character. But... I like the black and light blue look too much to give it up.

Personally I never think it's quite been done right in the comics, but it's getting there. The early 00's didn't have a particularly iconic logo which is why his logo from the animated show has gained such recognition with the character despite never appearing in the comics. We're moving in that direction, but the Rebirth suit still has a few unnecessary flourishes that are too detailed or not well thought out to be a truly iconic design. 

For my money, the best Dick has ever looked is the Animated Series skin in the Batman Arkham City game, where he had the full black suit with the iconic blue eagle but no unnecessary detailing. (And they chopped the mullet!)

----------


## Ascended

> If this costume was blue, it would be my favorite ever. He has the gauntlet that serves as a utility belt, has that spikes in his arms, reminiscing of his time as Batman, the stripes, a lot a cool details. I really like this suit.
> 
> The only bad part is the red.


By and large I agree; Booth did a good job giving the suit some weight and making it look like more than just spandex without losing the sleek design sensibility (for the most part). The red was problematic, and I think he was a little *too* detailed, but generally I thought it was a damn viable design, outside of the color. 




> I've had the same thought that the blue and yellow look would probably be a better representation of the character. But... I like the black and light blue look too much to give it up.


Yeah, I'm not willing to give it up either, it's as close as we've got to a iconic design for Dick and I'm loathe to give that up. But if a bit of yellow could be worked in here or there without losing the suit's recognition factor I wouldn't complain.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Does anyone else what the gliders he had back? I'm curious. The more I think about it Dick does have other talents that haven't been explored. He did in some comics play the guitar. Why not have him be a guitar tutor? Or some type of music tutor

----------


## Restingvoice

Someone has to draw it first since I've never seen a yellow that works for me. I don't even like light blue. I only like the dark blue or red. More dark blue than red. 

I like the glider. It's functional.

----------


## K7P5V

Agree about the glider. If only there were some way to combine the DCAU version with the George Perez version:

----------


## Pohzee

I'm conflicted about the glider. It 100% come down to execution. If it was used right it would be cool to see Dick flying through the air with "the greatest of ease," sailing and looping acrobatically, but it could also be used as a shortcut for lazy visual storytelling where he just glides everywhere and could come off as way less dynamic that his typical Spider-slinging way of getting around.

It's not exactly the same thing, but what I'm thinking of here is the glider from Tomasi's run, where he just flew everywhere on his glider and it wasn't very interesting. It made the story feel like he was quick traveling through a video game or something.

----------


## Ascended

I totally support the glider. But it has to be Dick's secondary form of transportation, used only in particular circumstances like 1. there isn't enough around for him to parkour (think Spider-Man when he's in the suburbs and can't swing) 2. long distance travel (think Infinite Crisis) or 3. if he's fighting someone who can fly and they're above building level.

----------


## Pohzee

> Agree about the glider. If only there were some way to combine the DCAU version with the George Perez version:


Here were some mockups I made trying to combine the two.

----------


## Godlike13

Im digging the bottom right.

----------


## Ascended

> Im digging the bottom right.


Same. I think if you want to get back to that early 90's vibe you need the belt and boots and gloves, which the black-blue generally does away with (outside of arm and finger stripes).  

I'm still satisfied with the black-blue, but if DC were to put some yellow back in, that's how I'd like to see it done. Good job Pohzee!

----------


## Pohzee

Thanks! 10char

----------


## K7P5V

> Originally Posted by Godlike13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Pohzee
> ...


^^^In total agreement. They're all very well done.  :Cool:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Here were some mockups I made trying to combine the two.


If we have to go this color I honestly prefer the ones with no black
No idea why I just don't think the light blue plus yellow with the black is a good combo but it looks better with the dark blue
Hmm... maybe because of the familiarity with Perez costume
The Stelfreeze black mixed with elements of Perez feels like two different eras mixed together and my mind can't reconcile it.
The first one I think it's best because it has the simplest shape. The bird logo isn't divided into two colors

----------


## Pohzee

> If we have to go this color I honestly prefer the ones with no black
> No idea why I just don't think the light blue plus yellow with the black is a good combo but it looks better with the dark blue
> Hmm... maybe because of the familiarity with Perez costume
> The Stelfreeze black mixed with elements of Perez feels like two different eras mixed together and my mind can't reconcile it.
> The first one I think it's best because it has the simplest shape. The bird logo isn't divided into two colors


Yeah, the idea was to experiment with a range between the classic and colorful Perez and Mulletwing suit and the sleek and iconic BTNA suit. The most like the BTNA is the top middle and the most like the traditional suit is the top right. The left top and bottom were both attempts to streamline the more detailed classic suit while the bottom right was trying to add as much color and flair as possible to the blue and black. I think that my favorite is the bottom left, but I was pleasantly surprised by how well the Black and Yellow look came out.

I was pretty happy with how well the two-colored logo turned out actually. By simply making the feathers yellow, it evokes the yellow detailing of the Perez suit, retains the overall shape of the BTNA eagle that is so tied to the Nightwing brand, and the remaining portion of the blue bird is quite similar to the slim Rebirth logo that I've grown to like.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah, the idea was to experiment with a range between the classic and colorful Perez and Mulletwing suit and the sleek and iconic BTNA suit. The most like the BTNA is the top middle and the most like the traditional suit is the top right. The left top and bottom were both attempts to streamline the more detailed classic suit while the bottom right was trying to add as much color and flair as possible to the blue and black. I think that my favorite is the bottom left, but I was pleasantly surprised by how well the Black and Yellow look came out.
> 
> I was pretty happy with how well the two-colored logo turned out actually. By simply making the feathers yellow, it evokes the yellow detailing of the Perez suit, retains the overall shape of the BTNA eagle that is so tied to the Nightwing brand, and the remaining portion of the blue bird is quite similar to the slim Rebirth logo that I've grown to like.


I see I see

Wait, try the top left, but make the logo light blue and the collar yellow. Flip them around. I'm curious.

----------


## Pohzee

> I see I see
> 
> Wait, try the top left, but make the logo light blue and the collar yellow. Flip them around. I'm curious.


Here ya go. There's three variations of that for ya. Plus two more closer to Mulletwing for funsies. (And so I could re-use my template  :Wink: )


I'm not a huge fan, but my brother says it gives him Invincible vibes. I definitely still prefer the black and blue overall, but some of these would be fun for something styled in a semi-retro fashion like The Batman Brave and the Bold was or as an early Nightwing costume like the Rocafort one.

----------


## Drako

SCOTT SNYDER's NIGHTWING Pitch: How Gotham Would Be Different Under His Mantle

https://www.newsarama.com/50017-nigh...tt-snyder.html

----------


## sifighter

> SCOTT SNYDER's NIGHTWING Pitch: How Gotham Would Be Different Under His Mantle
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/50017-nigh...tt-snyder.html


So wait, is that saying Dick puts the Bat-mantle back on or is it during a previous point where he was already Batman?

----------


## Pohzee

Given Snyder’s DickBats is awesome, I’ll be excited for the story. But if he really will take up the cowl, it just goes to show how little the Nightwing identity means to DC. And if it’s an elseworlds it won’t be doing much for the character.

----------


## OBrianTallent

So it's not a Nightwing pitch after all.  That's really disappointing.

----------


## cc008

> So wait, is that saying Dick puts the Bat-mantle back on or is it during a previous point where he was already Batman?


It sounds like he takes over for Batman, but AS Nightwing. That's how I interpreted it. Wouldn't make sense for his time as Batman to be explored only to have him do it again.

----------


## Badou

Sounds like it might be a non DCU project. Kind of like Murphy's White Knight book where he has the freedom to do what he wants with Gotham but with Dick as the focus here maybe. The scope he is talking about feels too big for Dick's normal solo book, which is great. One of the biggest things I find frustrating about Dick's solo Nightwing book is how small the stories are in scale when you have a character with 80 years of DC history to play with. So many of his stories just feel inconsequential and repetitive and if Snyder wants to do something bigger in scope then that is great.

----------


## sifighter

I mean I’m down for it no matter what, I’d like to read an actual Nightwing story and I like Scott Snyder’s writing so, win win for me overall.

----------


## Ascended

Well, Snyder says the story is about Dick taking over for Bruce, and looking at Dick at each stage of his career. So it's likely a non-continuity miniseries, or possibly 5G. If 5G is even happening anymore and those Luke rumors prove to be false.

So, Snyder writes a quality Grayson and almost anything would be better than what we've had lately. But it makes me laugh that he's doing "a comprehensive view of Dick's full career" and is still ending up with Dick in Gotham doing detective work. I mean....really? That's the bar? Dick just taking over the family business? I was hoping for more.

----------


## Masterff

I personally have to say that I only like the Nightwing Costume of Rebirth and not the Animated Version which covers also the nose or the Perez Versions.

I like the domino mask and the simplicity of the Nightwing Rebirth Costume.

----------


## Godlike13

> SCOTT SNYDER's NIGHTWING Pitch: How Gotham Would Be Different Under His Mantle
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/50017-nigh...tt-snyder.html


See Snyder gets it. It’s not about things like being the best detective, it’s about how to be more unique as a detective. As Batman, Nightwing, or Agent 37 ill take whatever I can get from creators who get it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Here ya go. There are three variations of that for ya. Plus two more closer to Mulletwing for funsies. (And so I could re-use my template )
> 
> 
> I'm not a huge fan, but my brother says it gives him Invincible vibes. I definitely still prefer the black and blue overall, but some of these would be fun for something styled in a semi-retro fashion like The Batman Brave and the Bold was or as an early Nightwing costume like the Rocafort one.


Thanks! Cool. 

Yeah, I can see the Invincible, and the yellow collar doesn't work as good as I thought. I think because of the dark blue can contrast with his light skin while the yellow swallows it. 

The top right works for me because of its simplicity and contrast, but it also reminds me of Batgirl lol

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, Snyder says the story is about Dick taking over for Bruce, and looking at Dick at each stage of his career. So it's likely a non-continuity miniseries, or possibly 5G. If 5G is even happening anymore and those Luke rumors prove to be false.
> 
> So, Snyder writes a quality Grayson and almost anything would be better than what we've had lately. But it makes me laugh that he's doing "a comprehensive view of Dick's full career" and is still ending up with Dick in Gotham doing detective work. I mean....really? That's the bar? Dick just taking over the family business? I was hoping for more.


yeah out of all the things nightwing could be he just in up becoming replacement batman.

I mean a detective in Gotham? (Man bludhaven does nothing for nightwing) and snyder wonders why people see him as batman lite.

But then again what else could nightwing be under the bat office?

----------


## Restingvoice

> So wait, is that saying Dick puts the Bat-mantle back on, or is it during a previous point where he was already Batman?


He wishes to make a story he didn't get to make. Not The Court, but other ideas he didn't get to tell yet during Dick's time as Batman

He also wants to make Dick's stories from each beginning of his career akin to Robin Year One and Nightwing Year One, but something of his own. 

It can be out of continuity or within continuity. They can just slip all these stories as part of his lengthy back story similar to Legends of The Dark Knight.

----------


## Claude

> See Snyder gets it. It’s not about things like being the best detective, it’s about how to be more unique as a detective. As Batman, Nightwing, or Agent 37 ill take whatever I can get from creators who get it.


100% - I get a bit tired of the Top Trumps school of characterisation ("Tim as a score of 76 against Being A Detective whereas Dick only has 55"/"Ah, but Dick has an 81 for Heart!"), so it's refreshing to hear Snyder talk about Dick having different skills rather than placing him a line compared to other characters.

Liking what Snyder's saying here, he really seems be _interested_ in exploring and doing right by Dick's character - even if, on the face of it, it's a bit Gotham-focussed.

----------


## Ascended

> See Snyder gets it. It’s not about things like being the best detective, it’s about how to be more unique as a detective. As Batman, Nightwing, or Agent 37 ill take whatever I can get from creators who get it.


I'm definitely going to check out whatever this ends up being. 

Yeah, I'm concerned that this will just be more Bat-lite crap. The last things I wanted to see in Nightwing is the Bat cowl and Gotham. But Snyder writes a good Dick Grayson, and if this story is hitting all the major eras of Dick's career then there's gonna be something here for all of us. That's pretty great, and after putting up with Ric for two years all of us deserve at least a taste of our favorite Grayson. I really don't want more DickBats; after Ric all I want is quality Nightwing. But Snyder writes a good Grayson and anything is better than what we've had lately.

And what have we all been saying for the last few years? That Dick deserves some investment and needs some big name creators. Well, here we are, DC's biggest writer is doing a project with Dick. Time to put our money where our mouths are, and at least give this an issue or three to see where it goes. 

I'm also wondering if this isn't going to end up being Snyder establishing a new normal for Dick. It might just be an Elseworlds or something, a "What If Dick stayed Batman?" but what little was said in that article is reminding me of Johns' Superman: Secret Origin mini, which sought to establish a baseline history for Superman as well as define the approach for the future of the franchise. It was a god awful story, one of the worst Superman tales I've ever read, but the intent of SO sounds a bit like what Snyder is saying here. And I wouldn't be against Snyder establishing a new, polished baseline status quo for Nightwing.

Y'know, Jim Lee said he'd protect the character. I think we're starting to see what he meant by that. And so far it's a hell of an improvement over Didio. Even if this does end up being a Elseworlds so Snyder could write more DickBats, it's more than Didio gave us.

----------


## Drako

> I'm definitely going to check out whatever this ends up being. 
> 
> Yeah,* I'm concerned that this will just be more Bat-lite crap*. The last things I wanted to see in Nightwing is the Bat cowl and Gotham. But Snyder writes a good Dick Grayson, and if this story is hitting all the major eras of Dick's career then there's gonna be something here for all of us. That's pretty great, and after putting up with Ric for two years all of us deserve at least a taste of our favorite Grayson. I really don't want more DickBats; after Ric all I want is quality Nightwing. But Snyder writes a good Grayson and anything is better than what we've had lately.


Snyder talked about it in the interview and it's something that he'll probably make sure it won't happen.

"There are mysteries Bruce wouldnt do as well on as Dick and he [Dick] sometimes gets shortchanged in terms of people thinking of him as Batman-light."

----------


## Ascended

> Snyder talked about it in the interview and it's something that he'll probably make sure it won't happen.
> 
> "There are mysteries Bruce wouldn’t do as well on as Dick and he [Dick] sometimes gets shortchanged in terms of people thinking of him as Batman-light."


Yeah, I caught that. And to the extent that Dick handles problems differently than Bruce I'm confident that Snyder will do well. He'll write Dick Grayson, not Bruce Wayne.

But Dick solving mysteries in Gotham is still just doing Batman things, even if Dick's methodology is slightly different. 

We'll see what Snyder's story is. I mean, it'll be good either way. But I'm hoping this is a story built on Dick, that could only be told with him, not just a Batman mystery where Dick finds the answers in a slightly different way.

Time will tell. It'll be worth reading regardless. All I'm saying is I want to see investment and effort put into Nightwing, not Batman with someone else under the cowl.

I'm just being picky, I know. But we've put up with Ric for two years, I think we're allowed to be a little demanding.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Yeah, I caught that. And to the extent that Dick handles problems differently than Bruce I'm confident that Snyder will do well. He'll write Dick Grayson, not Bruce Wayne.
> 
> But Dick solving mysteries in Gotham is still just doing Batman things, even if Dick's methodology is slightly different. 
> 
> We'll see what Snyder's story is. I mean, it'll be good either way. But I'm hoping this is a story built on Dick, that could only be told with him, not just a Batman mystery where Dick finds the answers in a slightly different way.
> 
> Time will tell. It'll be worth reading regardless. All *I'm saying is I want to see investment and effort put into Nightwing, not Batman with someone else under the cowl*.
> 
> I'm just being picky, I know. But we've put up with Ric for two years, I think we're allowed to be a little demanding.


This.  I would be even more excited if this were an actual Nightwing story and not just a different version of Batman.

----------


## Ascended

> This.  I would be even more excited if this were an actual Nightwing story and not just a different version of Batman.


Well, we don't really know what this is yet. It might be the kind of Nightwing we miss and want back. In Gotham, apparently, but that's not the end of the world. And it sounds like we'll all get a bit of our favorite version, somehow (flashbacks? Old villains or supporting cast revisiting? Years-spanning story?). 

But I think we have reason to be cautiously optimistic, and dare I say even happy.  :Smile:  Snyder's a big name and this will put eyes on the character. We know Snyder can write a quality Dick Grayson and the story should be good, even if it's not the story we want it to be. We're getting some of the effort from DC that we've wanted. That's cool. 

I mean, I'm not going to forget the last few years of bullsh*t just because DC offers me a treat. DC has broken my trust completely here and I'm not rewarding any empty effort. So these sons of bitches are gonna have to earn their redemption and more importantly, my money. But Snyder doing a Grayson story where there's a conscious effort to avoid Bat-lite, that touches on all the eras of the character....that could be a good start.

----------


## Robanker

Snyder's high profile to relaunch Nightwing in the public eye may be the kick in the pants the IP needs. I miss reading Nightwing stories. A lot.

But DC has burned me many a time before, so I'll wait and see. Tentatively going to pick this up if only because it seems like Snyder has pull and actually likes Dick Grayson, so at the very least he won't do him dirty for fun. Moreover, we've lost the devil we know in Didio, so who knows what's in store for Nightwing?

I can only hope he gets a good artist on the book. I'm interested, to say the least.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I have to ask. In terms of Nightwing. What is the most hated thing about him? I don't mean him has a character rather about his lore

----------


## Restingvoice

> I have to ask. In terms of Nightwing. What is the most hated thing about him? I don't mean him has a character rather about his lore


Well... current condition comes to mind




> Yeah, I caught that. And to the extent that Dick handles problems differently than Bruce I'm confident that Snyder will do well. He'll write Dick Grayson, not Bruce Wayne.
> 
> But Dick solving mysteries in Gotham is still just doing Batman things, even if Dick's methodology is slightly different.


You're saying that despite Snyder's intention, it will come off as Batman lite to readers right? If not now, then years later once DC takes over the story and wraps it to fit their vision.

----------


## dropkickjake

well i have a lot to catch up one. Pohzee, all of those designs are great. I'm woth everyone who liked the initial bottom right, though I might replace the black with a much darker blue than in the other suits!

I'll have to check out Snyder's pitch soon!

----------


## Ascended

> Well... current condition comes to mind
> 
> You're saying that despite Snyder's intention, it will come off as Batman lite to readers right? If not now, then years later once DC takes over the story and wraps it to fit their vision.


I'm saying it *might* come off as Bat-lite despite Snyder's intention. Even with Dick using a different methodology and doing things his own way, solving mysteries in Gotham means it's gonna be awfully hard to avoid Bat-isms.

But we know basically nothing about this story, so I'm just voicing fears that might turn out to be virtually baseless when all is said and done.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay, we have Babs. But do you guys think Dick will not show?  If anything the Harley Quinn show could have done Batman and Robin storyline.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Okay, we have Babs. But do you guys think Dick will not show?  If anything the Harley Quinn show could have done Batman and Robin storyline.


If he did batman would be chill

----------


## AmiMizuno

While I don't want this to be shown. If Dick were to go to college what would he even do? I mean, we have seen a few Batfam do it.

----------


## Pohzee

I think he studied business at Hudson, but I actually like the idea that college isn't for him. It's something I'd like explored a bit more actually if he's going to continue have civilian jobs (which I would prefer he didn't).

----------


## sifighter

If I recall Earth 2 Dick Grayson graduated college and worked for the US government as a lawyer or something, I remember he was the attorney against the JSA in in United States vs JSA but he also traveled to other countries as an emissary/ambassador(I don't remember the name for it).

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean no one seems to know what job he should have, A job that would take him around the country. What about a musician or working at the casino?  Then again he does want to work with people. What would be a good job for him to help people that aren't college-based ones?

----------


## sifighter

I mean he's friends with Barbara and basically a son to Bruce, you telling me he couldn't just be independently financed/owns investment in companies. He wouldn't have to work and he'd be free to travel so long as someone keeps track of his investments and financials which I assume most of the batfamily could handle.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Bruce didn't set up Robin trust accounts for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. He suspects that they will need funds for when they travel on personal business/heroics so he makes sure to allocate funds to them for their hero needs.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean he's friends with Barbara and basically a son to Bruce, you telling me he couldn't just be independently financed/owns investment in companies. He wouldn't have to work and he'd be free to travel so long as someone keeps track of his investments and financials which I assume most of the bat family could handle.
> 
> Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Bruce didn't set up Robin trust accounts for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. He suspects that they will need funds for when they travel on personal business/heroics so he makes sure to allocate funds to them for their hero needs.


He does, but Dick usually refuses being paid for personal expenses unless it's The Grayson's money that got invested. He also hates asking Bruce for money.

Crimefighting equipment is not personal stuff so he doesn't refuse it. Unless he's angry with Bruce.

----------


## OWL45

> I mean he's friends with Barbara and basically a son to Bruce, you telling me he couldn't just be independently financed/owns investment in companies. He wouldn't have to work and he'd be free to travel so long as someone keeps track of his investments and financials which I assume most of the batfamily could handle.
> 
> Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Bruce didn't set up Robin trust accounts for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. He suspects that they will need funds for when they travel on personal business/heroics so he makes sure to allocate funds to them for their hero needs.


I agree. He should just be a detective for some type of PD for example Gotham. Its a natural fit like in the Titans show. Its not rocket science. Its a good cover and doesnt permit him from traveling and being a superhero.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He does, but Dick usually refuses being paid for personal expenses unless it's The Grayson's money that got invested. He also hates asking Bruce for money.
> 
> Crimefighting equipment is not personal stuff so he doesn't refuse it. Unless he's angry with Bruce.


He takes it without asking somtimes

----------


## Ascended

> I mean no one seems to know what job he should have, A job that would take him around the country. What about a musician or working at the casino?  Then again he does want to work with people. What would be a good job for him to help people that aren't college-based ones?


I don't want him to have a job. And I don't want him using handouts from Bruce. 

Being Nightwing is his job. It's far more fitting the character's themes and history. Like Wally, Dick is a professional hero. 

He can acquire funding either by playing with stocks or by owning (but not operating full time) a business or organization. Dick owning Haly's but letting Haly handle the day-to-day, for example. 




> While I don't want this to be shown. If Dick were to go to college what would he even do? I mean, we have seen a few Batfam do it.


I think in post-Crisis he studied law for a few semesters before dropping out. Not sure about New52/Rebirth continuity. 

Dick's a smart guy but I don't want him to have a college degree. I mean, consider everything he had to learn as Robin and the heir of Bruce Wayne; psychology, chemistry, history, business, law, all kinds of crap. Is Dick the kind of guy who'd spend four years re-learning knowledge he mostly already knows, just for a piece of paper? I don't see it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think in post-Crisis he studied law for a few semesters before dropping out. Not sure about New52/Rebirth continuity. 
> 
> Dick's a smart guy but I don't want him to have a college degree. I mean, consider everything he had to learn as Robin and the heir of Bruce Wayne; psychology, chemistry, history, business, law, all kinds of crap. Is Dick the kind of guy who'd spend four years re-learning knowledge he mostly already knows, just for a piece of paper? I don't see it.


He took law for a semester in Bludhaven Law College where he met The Judge. I don't know his main degree. 

I don't see it either because... wasn't his decision to drop out is because he feels it's not really useful for crimefighting?

By the way what's the name of Nightwing's bike? In any version

----------


## Godlike13

Earth 2 Dick i think was a lawyer i believe, but main Dick has too many parallels with Dare Devil as it is.

----------


## Ascended

> Earth 2 Dick i think was a lawyer i believe, but main Dick has too many parallels with Dare Devil as it is.


Pretty sure you're right about E-2 Dick being a lawyer. Not sure though, I haven't read too much with that version of him. It seemed fitting though. Regular/main continuity Dick is a totally different matter though; he's blazed his own trail more than his E-2 counterpart has and doesn't strike me as the "regular job" kinda guy at all.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait. The more I think about it. Diana use to get her money from copyrights. So Maybe if we don't want him to get a job he gets it from items sold of Nightwing? I mean the fact there is Nightwing items can't be too hard to do.

----------


## sifighter

> Wait. The more I think about it. Diana use to get her money from copyrights. So Maybe if we don't want him to get a job he gets it from items sold of Nightwing? I mean the fact there is Nightwing items can't be too hard to do.


The problem with superheroes, they never trademark. Batman isn't seeing any funds from Batburger and we all know it.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Wait. The more I think about it. Diana use to get her money from copyrights. So Maybe if we don't want him to get a job he gets it from items sold of Nightwing? I mean the fact there is Nightwing items can't be too hard to do.


Diana doesn't really have a secret identity. Nightwing though, does. So, copyrights would be quite a problem for Dick.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Diana doesn't really have a secret identity. Nightwing though, does. So, copyrights would be quite a problem for Dick.


I mean if he were to be a professional hero that would be hard. Unless he did book signs or other things that can help him make money. Maybe he could make a deal with the people. That would be interesting to see him making money from being a hero





> The problem with superheroes, they never trademark. Batman isn't seeing any funds from Batburger and we all know it.



Diana is the only one who has. So I thought it would be interesting if Dick got some money.

----------


## AmiMizuno

double post

----------


## Marilee

> Earth 2 Dick i think was a lawyer i believe, but main Dick has too many parallels with Dare Devil as it is.


Yes, the Earth 2 Dick Grayson was a lawyer.  He also served as ambassador to South Africa for a while.  He and Helena Wayne were part of a consumer research firm (Cranston, Grayson and Wayne, if I'm not mistaken).

The Pre-COIE Dick was taking economics at Hudson U before he dropped out.  I personally always thought he should have gotten a joint degree in that and international relations.  Then he could have acted as a Wayne Industries trouble shooter around the globe, travelling to hot spots to deal with problems.  It would have acted as a cover for his globe-trotting as Nightwing (because I want him as far away as possible from Gotham and Bludhaven, but maintaining ties to Bruce and the family (without having to be in their pockets)).

----------


## Ascended

> Wait. The more I think about it. Diana use to get her money from copyrights. So Maybe if we don't want him to get a job he gets it from items sold of Nightwing? I mean the fact there is Nightwing items can't be too hard to do.


Well, there'd be legal problems with that, since Dick has a secret identity. 

But that's assuming the law in DC is the same as the real world. And I don't think it can be, otherwise villains would be able to dance out of a court room thanks to unlawful arrests or unlawfully gained evidence or whatever. Vigilantes still might be, at least technically, unlawful, but the law would have had to change to take their actions into account so I don't see any reason why the copyright law wouldn't be changed too.

So, sure, I don't really see why this couldn't be a viable option. I kinda like it actually; it makes Nightwing more of a public figure.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well, there'd be legal problems with that, since Dick has a secret identity. 
> 
> But that's assuming the law in DC is the same as the real world. And I don't think it can be, otherwise villains would be able to dance out of a court room thanks to unlawful arrests or unlawfully gained evidence or whatever. Vigilantes still might be, at least technically, unlawful, but the law would have had to change to take their actions into account so I don't see any reason why the copyright law wouldn't be changed too.
> 
> So, sure, I don't really see why this couldn't be a viable option. I kinda like it actually; it makes Nightwing more of a public figure.


I believe to mitigate unlawful arrest is why Batman leaves the evidence alongside the perpetrator and leave before the authorities arrive, so Gordon can say it's the police who's making the arrest, and the evidence just happens to be there shrug. 

Sometimes Batman also intimidates goons or right-hand men to confess, so they do the court job for him. The rest he left to Gordon, Dent, Dawes, or whoever the current good lawyers and judge available. That's pretty much what they do in Year One and Begins, and I'm sure they continue to do now.

By now Batman helping the police is common knowledge, they just need a good enough case in court to counter that defense, and after most of Gotham's corruption is cleaned a lot of officials are willing to help anyway.

----------


## Ascended

That's true, but it doesn't apply to other heroes. I mean Flash and Superman will sometimes drop the criminals off at the police station directly. Can't legally call that the police's collar when witnesses are there to see the crook dropped off like a present. Under real law that would likely result in the crook walking away unless they had an active warrant out for their arrest, but we see it work for criminals without priors too. 

DCU law has to be different than real law. My wife is the one who's in law, not me, but I've seen how fragile the system is and how easily a defense lawyer can cast doubt on the evidence chain. DC has to have made laws to take vigilantes into account, probably dating back to when the JSA was drafted into WWII. So perhaps there's also copyright laws Dick could take advantage of, even if most other heroes allow their likeness to be used at no profit to themselves. Actually, I know at least a few heroes have "signed off" on their likeness being used for merchandise, with the profits they should receive going to charity instead. That implies there's legal grounds for a hero to profit from their likeness.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Agreed. I mean if anything due to the fact Heroes have been in Dc for a while. There must be laws that can help him get some profit. I mean if we don't want him to be a hero for hire. I guess him doing public events? 

Also, How do you feel about the actor playing Nightwing?

----------


## qwazer07

Hello. I'm new. I like Nightwing from Titans. But the animated movie version suck hard. Even the annoying brat Damian beat him. If the little punk tried that in Titans, he will end up in a hospital.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Hello. I'm new. I like Nightwing from Titans. But the animated movie version suck hard. Even the annoying brat Damian beat him. If the little punk tried that in Titans, he will end up in a hospital.


They were just sparing, it’s not a big deal, they have Ben training for the same amount of time

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean even after that Dick never wins. He always needed someone to save him in animated movies. Dick is supposed to be a top-notch fighter.

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean even after that Dick never wins. He always needed someone to save him in animated movies. Dick is supposed to be a top-notch fighter.


 True! But nightwing is always playing the support role, he's never the lead. His job in the movie the movies is to put over the lead villains and heros.

You what nightwing to be more competent? Than he needs to not always play the role of "background dancer" all the time.

----------


## qwazer07

> They were just sparing, it’s not a big deal, they have Ben training for the same amount of time


Nightwing just loses in the movies while the Scrappy-Doo of the Bat family gets the spotlight everytime. The writers obviously loves to wank BlOoD sOn "Robin". I hope Damian never returns.

----------


## K7P5V

The team-up between Dick & Helena was most enjoyable. 
Too bad things didn't work out in the end, though. 

 



The Evolution of...

*Dick Grayson*



*Artist*: Rick Leonardi

----------


## qwazer07

Helena was a better pairing than Babs. Bat writers destroying every other pairing to promote their DickBabs ship is an abomination.

----------


## K7P5V

Scott McDaniel's rendition of Dick's acrobatic prowess will always be memorable...







...as well as McDaniel's version of a defiant Grayson!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Helena was a better pairing than Babs. Bat writers destroying every other pairing to promote their DickBabs ship is an abomination.


You can’t mean that, she is at most the equivalent of black cat  for Spider-Man

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing just loses in the movies while the Scrappy-Doo of the Bat family gets the spotlight everytime. The writers obviously loves to wank BlOoD sOn "Robin". I hope Damian never returns.


Scrappy doo ? How old are you ?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> True! But nightwing is always playing the support role, he's never the lead. His job in the movie the movies is to put over the lead villains and heros.
> 
> You what nightwing to be more competent? Than he needs to not always play the role of "background dancer" all the time.


I mean in other media he has done pretty well. Does this mean he should be taken away from the Batfam for a bit? I'm not saying he shouldn't be part. Rather just be on his own for a bit.

----------


## Claude

> I mean in other media he has done pretty well. Does this mean he should be taken away from the Batfam for a bit? I'm not saying he shouldn't be part. Rather just be on his own for a bit.


Almost the opposite, I think - Dick and Bruce's relationship is so hazily defined these days, and alternates between warm and acrimonious, and they spend so little panel time together for characters with so much history dependent on each other, I think we've reached the point where we need two Bruce and Dick Maxi-Series. One "Batman And Robin", one "Batman And Nightwing". The first with them as partners in Gotham, working with the original Justice League as a duo, the second with them using independent resources - Dick using Spyral information and getting help from Titans friends, Bruce using the wider Bat Family and the "current" League to work against a common threat. 

Force them on the page together. Make "shared" characters like Damian and Superman a virtue. You could come up with something pretty interesting, and both characters would benefit.

(Or stuff them up for a generation if it went wrong.)

I would also accept "Batman And Robin" for the first maxi series becoming "Wayne And Grayson" for the second.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don't know how to feel about Soyal since Batman already has a good amount of tech to get info.  That and Dick can just use other people in the Batfam. We really need a reason for him. He can also use TT

----------


## Ascended

First off, McDaniel is *still* the best Nightwing artist, I think. Man that guy's work back in the day just blew my mind. I'd spend hours pouring over his panels. His sense of motion was virtually unrivaled in American comics back then, I think. Him and Ramos were the "go to" artists if you needed something that really popped. 

As for Dick's connections to Bruce....they need to be there. Bruce is a big part of Dick's history and life. Dick *is* a Bat. And DC would be foolish to forget that; Batman's status can (and has) helped elevate Nightwing's profile.

The problem we have, and we've all talked about this for years now, is that DC isn't letting Dick be *more* than a Bat, and they're not letting him be *more* than Bruce's sidekick. But Nightwing can and should still retain his heritage and history. That just shouldn't be *all* he is. Dick can be a Bat and also be an independent hero with his own vibe and his own narrative. DC just has to stop treating the guy like a sidekick who happens to have a solo. They just have to admit that there's more of importance to Dick than Gotham, and lean into his whole history instead of pretending that only the Gotham stuff mattered.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> First off, McDaniel is *still* the best Nightwing artist, I think. Man that guy's work back in the day just blew my mind. I'd spend hours pouring over his panels. His sense of motion was virtually unrivaled in American comics back then, I think. Him and Ramos were the "go to" artists if you needed something that really popped. 
> 
> As for Dick's connections to Bruce....they need to be there. Bruce is a big part of Dick's history and life. Dick *is* a Bat. And DC would be foolish to forget that; Batman's status can (and has) helped elevate Nightwing's profile.
> 
> The problem we have, and we've all talked about this for years now, is that DC isn't letting Dick be *more* than a Bat, and they're not letting him be *more* than Bruce's sidekick. But Nightwing can and should still retain his heritage and history. That just shouldn't be *all* he is. Dick can be a Bat and also be an independent hero with his own vibe and his own narrative. DC just has to stop treating the guy like a sidekick who happens to have a solo. They just have to admit that there's more of importance to Dick than Gotham, and lean into his whole history instead of pretending that only the Gotham stuff mattered.


Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.

----------


## WonderNight

100% man. Like I'm not asking for dick to be disconnected form the bat franchise. Only that he could and should be alot more than that. Dick's a bat yes, but at this point he should be a DCU character first and bat second.

Nightwing's growth will come when he's more independent from batman (not disconnected) and more connected to the DCU.

----------


## qwazer07

> Scrappy doo ? How old are you ?


My age doesn't matter. LOL. Nightwing is badass. That's what matters.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.


When he became police officer in Bludhaven, I think that's the best opportunity to give Dick his own Gordon, like he gets close to commissioner of Bludhaven and secretly encourages him to work together with Nightwing. Sad that his days as police officer didn't last long...

----------


## Ascended

> Agreed. In a sense I always wonder what kind of rules should be for writing Dick. I get people hate Dick having a city. But I do think it can work. The issue is more things would have to be different. Does he need a Gordon? No, maybe he has his own network.


I'm not a big fan of rules in writing. But I do like guidelines. 

I think I've said this before, but I'd be happy if the Gotham crew could make small cameos as often as the Nightwing writer wants them to; stuff like Dick having dinner with Damian or Bruce or calling Babs to ask her about a tricky computer virus he's investigating, stuff like that. Appearances that don't deeply impact the plot and are limited to a page or so.

Having the Bats show up in a meaningful way, where they're probably in costume and help Dick with a mission and are deeply involved for an issue or three, should happen once every 18-24 months. 

Major crossovers where the books tie together should happen every 24 months at most. These are big, drawn out narratives that usually are only tangentially connected to Dick and while those can help bring sales up a little in the short term, as people follow the crossover from one book to the others, I think that consistent world building for Dick will provide much greater returns in the long run and do a better job building his fanbase. 

Same applies to Titans and Supers and whoever else. 

As for a Gordon, I don't mind Dick having contacts in the civilian sectors; most heroes do. I mean, even Superman has contacts like Dan Turpin, Maggie Sawyer, and Inspector Henderson. But Dick needs his own mythos and setting and cast, and that doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a simple copy of Gotham. So if he's got a friend in the PD somewhere, fine, but that dynamic needs to be built to advance and compliment Dick Grayson, not be something of Bruce's that got re-purposed and slapped onto Dick's world just because Dick's a Bat so he obviously needs a Gordon.

----------


## qwazer07

> When he became police officer in Bludhaven, I think that's the best opportunity to give Dick his own Gordon, like he gets close to commissioner of Bludhaven and secretly encourages him to work together with Nightwing. Sad that his days as police officer didn't last long...


Dick also looks very hot in that police uniform. He has great sex appeal which I believe should be considered in future decisions.

----------


## Restingvoice

Lost Carnival is out on digital, it's... black and white line art with blue shading, which is... not exactly my favorite... don't like it actually, since blue and black on white paper reminds me of a draft.

----------


## Ascended

How's the story? I think I can deal with a black-white-blue color palate. That Harley Breaking Glass OGN is in black-white-red and what I've seen of it doesn't look too bad (bought it for the wife). Not my preferred approach to art but I can roll with it, especially if it fits the mood. But if the story isn't worthwhile then the art won't save it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?

----------


## Restingvoice

> How's the story? I think I can deal with a black-white-blue color palate. That Harley Breaking Glass OGN is in black-white-red and what I've seen of it doesn't look too bad (bought it for the wife). Not my preferred approach to art but I can roll with it, especially if it fits the mood. But if the story isn't worthwhile then the art won't save it.


Haven't read it




> So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?


He can hack ATM, motion sensors, and Justice League satellite
Isn't undercover more demanding?

----------


## WonderNight

> So Dick being a cop would make him his own Gordon. The issue would be being a Cop is demanding. Maybe he can work undercover? I do have to ask how good is Dick with tech?


Dick being a cop limits him as a superhero because it demands to much time in bludhaven. No time for teams or adventures out of bludhaven. 

People bring up the titans tv but you see as soon he meets raven he stops doing his 9 to 5 job so he could travel across country in season 1 and Sanfansico in season 2.

Dick as a cop only works if he's limited to low level street hero not apart of the larger hero community.

----------


## Ascended

I still think a normal job goes against the grain of the character. Dick's very much deeply entrenched in escapist fantasy. He's the kid who got to be a superhero, long before that sort of thing was common. He's the freewheeling acrobat, reveling in his freedom (both thematically and functionally) and his devil-may-care attitude. 

Dick having to stamp a time card ruins all of that. Dick having the responsibilities that we regular people do dulls the shine and appeal of the character. 

Don't tie strings to him in the form of a 401k and taxes. Let the dude roam the world, be a superhero, and have fun (with the occasional bout of angst thrown in, because Dick does like to brood on occasion). The idea of a normal civilian life just does not fit him, and efforts to make it fit always, always, always fail. Every time. We all need to learn the lesson and stop trying to force it. Dick Grayson is not a "regular job" kind of guy. Why we trying to make him something he's not?

----------


## WonderNight

> I still think a normal job goes against the grain of the character. Dick's very much deeply entrenched in escapist fantasy. He's the kid who got to be a superhero, long before that sort of thing was common. He's the freewheeling acrobat, reveling in his freedom (both thematically and functionally) and his devil-may-care attitude. 
> 
> Dick having to stamp a time card ruins all of that. Dick having the responsibilities that we regular people do dulls the shine and appeal of the character. 
> 
> Don't tie strings to him in the form of a 401k and taxes. Let the dude roam the world, be a superhero, and have fun (with the occasional bout of angst thrown in, because Dick does like to brood on occasion). The idea of a normal civilian life just does not fit him, and efforts to make it fit always, always, always fail. Every time. We all need to learn the lesson and stop trying to force it. Dick Grayson is not a "regular job" kind of guy. Why we trying to make him something he's not?


Yea DC needs to to look at dick and ask what fits nightwing as a character and concept. Not how to make him fit under batman.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s a symptom of comic creators over conditioned in cycling out traditional superhero stories and recreating the same formulas that have worked for other characters.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I would 5000x more want to see Dick as a vagabond traveling the world and doing odd jobs to make ends meet than see him as a cop or bartender again. Pure "itchy feet" Dick could be workable.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I say private investigator would fit Dick. He can travel to solve the cases and go undercover for odd jobs. Use Babs or other things to get his info.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, I would 5000x more want to see Dick as a vagabond traveling the world and doing odd jobs to make ends meet than see him as a cop or bartender again. Pure "itchy feet" Dick could be workable.


It'd be interesting seeing him operate without the resources too. Like when he moved to Chicago and couldn't even repair his costume.

It's not the direction I'd want to take him (as you know) but it could be pretty interesting, and far more true to his character than holding down some mundane job that any smuck could do.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean he doesn't want to live off Bruce. He wants to make his own money. If we have to give him money has a Superman only copyrights would work.  With him not living off resources. Why not have him build them himself? That would be interesting. He looks around for tech parts or learns to sew.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, I still think the old pitch thread turned out my favorite (hypothetical) Nightwing status ever. 


Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
nightwing.jpg

----------


## Claude

> Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
> nightwing.jpg


Oh, I _like_ that.

Yeah, do that.

----------


## sifighter

> Yeah, I still think the old pitch thread turned out my favorite (hypothetical) Nightwing status ever. 
> 
> 
> Also, here is another stab at incorporating the yellow into his costume I found on reddit:
> nightwing.jpg


I’d try to make it more a bird so it’s not so close to Black Lightning but honestly it looks really great. Adds a nice variety of color to his suit.

----------


## Rac7d*

As long as dick is single him having a career is not importantly can get by make money

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?


Red Hood's making money as a mercenary with Arsenal if that's what you mean, but they're Outlaws. Dick's more of a straight superhero that won't sell his service for money.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yea DC needs to to look at dick and ask what fits nightwing as a character and concept. Not how to make him fit under batman.


the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
he would have to not be

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Red Hood's making money as a mercenary with Arsenal if that's what you mean, but they're Outlaws. Dick's more of a straight superhero that won't sell his service for money.


Maybe a P.I work. He sets his own hours and travel. Not only that but maybe for this to work he was a cop at one point but maybe he had to quit or was fired. He still has good connections. It's just people keep saying they want him to have a job yet nothing works. I mean I thought maybe Dick has Nightwing could make money from copyrights


Can anyone think of guidelines that you think DC should have?

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean if he were to make money has Nightwing could that work? Somewhat of a public hero but not really? Could he do that without endangering?


Well sense this is supposed to be a shared universe, what if dick became zatanna's manager?

He could travel around the world make deals, setting up shows and events as her PR.manager. This would allow dick to be more DCU connected and travel the world and remain in the entertainment industry and spotlight that he was born to be apart of.

Dick could even get some of that fame spotlight as the person that introduces zatanna on stage and continue his family legacy as apart of the live entertainment industry.

----------


## Pohzee

5 issue tie-in? Ridiculous. Not that I was gonna be reading anyway but who would?

Also Joker Warzone lol.

----------


## Ascended

> Can anyone think of guidelines that you think DC should have?


Guidelines specifically about a job, or just in general? 

I think there's a few key factors to keep in mind with Nightwing.

1. He's not an Everyman. Despite being a real down to earth guy, Dick doesn't have the background or the trappings associated with the "normal dude." He's not Peter Parker and it goes against his character to burden him with common limitations like paying bills, getting his car registered, etc. He's superhero royalty; a super hot, hyper capable, well known rock star and one of the most trusted voices in his community, and the details and stress points of his life should not mirror that of the common man.

2. Dick Grayson is a Bat. But that's not all he is and his connections to the wider DCU, specifically the Titans and (to a lesser extent) Superman have had a deep impact and influence on him and his life. Nightwing adventures should not look like Batman adventures; Dick is just as comfortable dealing with aliens and high-concept problems as he is fighting lunatics with weird gimmicks in the streets.

I think if you follow those two guidelines, you're well positioned to create a decent Nightwing, or at least something that will feel uniquely like Dick Grayson and not a generic street level vigilante.




> 5 issue tie-in? Ridiculous. Not that I was gonna be reading anyway but who would?
> 
> Also Joker Warzone lol.


I don't know why sales are still as high as they are, honestly. Given the delay in publishing and everything that's happening, I sorta expect to see sales drop a lot more. By the time #75 rolls around I wouldn't be surprised to see the book selling 10K, maybe even less.

I sure as hell won't be supporting it. When Dick is back as Nightwing and has quality creators I'll come back happily, and might even buy two copies. But I won't pay for this trainwreck they're offering.

----------


## Digifiend

> the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
> he would have to not be


I think we already knew from solicits and the TPB pre-orders that Nightwing's next five issues are tie-ins? It also ends with him back to normal, so thanks, Joker! :Big Grin:

----------


## Elmo

we're almost over the horizon

----------


## Restingvoice

> Guidelines specifically about a job, or just in general? 
> 
> I think there's a few key factors to keep in mind with Nightwing.
> 
> 1. He's not an Everyman. Despite being a real down to earth guy, Dick doesn't have the background or the trappings associated with the "normal dude." He's not Peter Parker and it goes against his character to burden him with common limitations like paying bills, getting his car registered, etc. He's superhero royalty; a super hot, hyper capable, well known rock star and one of the most trusted voices in his community, and the details and stress points of his life should not mirror that of the common man.
> 
> 2. Dick Grayson is a Bat. But that's not all he is and his connections to the wider DCU, specifically the Titans and (to a lesser extent) Superman have had a deep impact and influence on him and his life. Nightwing adventures should not look like Batman adventures; Dick is just as comfortable dealing with aliens and high-concept problems as he is fighting lunatics with weird gimmicks in the streets.
> 
> I think if you follow those two guidelines, you're well positioned to create a decent Nightwing, or at least something that will feel uniquely like Dick Grayson and not a generic street level vigilante.
> ...


Now that you mention it you're right. Tim is the everyman, not Dick. I wonder why I keep getting the impression of everyman and comparison with Peter Parker... oh right... Dixon's Bludhaven pretty much establishes the impression that he's a poor bachelor by placing him in a low-cost apartment in a dangerous neighborhood... although he does like that kind of place, it's because he wants to help, not because he doesn't have money... but visually, at a glance, it made him looks like an everyman, a young man fresh out of college vying for independence, not a man on a mission. 

The reason he stayed in Bludhaven, in that area, was because he has a mission, very different than Peter Parker.

...and knowing that his stay in Bludhaven began as a mission, this puts Dixon's Bludhaven in another new light for me, that it's basically the same as Grayson, but far longer. 

It even has an ending because right before Infinite Crisis, Devin Grayson made Dick go undercover in the mob and arrange events so they stay out of Bludhaven. Blockbuster's gone, BPD is clean with Amy at the top, Penguin's gone, the mob stayed away, it's a good ending. He's done. He can leave, but at this point, of course, he already made a home and friends in Bludhaven that he wants to stay, until the Chemo nuke happened.

----------


## Restingvoice

> the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
> he would have to not be


That's not a Tie-in that's a whole arc! We can even count the current 2 issues with Punchline to make up a whole trade... unless it's already included, I forget which issue we're on and I don't care... 

Detective Comics I can see because they have the same character, but Nightwing and Batgirl... this just shows they don't have anything to do and no other plan right now that they can afford to dedicate a whole arc for this.

----------


## Frontier

> the only way for that happen would be to not be grayson/nightwing
> he would have to not be


Guess Dick is back by the 75th issue milestone.

----------


## Ascended

> Now that you mention it you're right. Tim is the everyman, not Dick.
> 
> The reason he stayed in Bludhaven, in that area, was because he has a mission, very different than Peter Parker.
> 
> ...and knowing that his stay in Bludhaven began as a mission, this puts Dixon's Bludhaven in another new light for me, that it's basically the same as Grayson, but far longer.


Yup, exactly. Now consider the fact that Dick had a mission to save Bludhaven....and actually did it. Until Slade dropped a sludge monster on it anyway. Dick did something damn few other heroes have; successfully saved his city. Granted, the Chemo incident sorta cancels that out, but Dick accomplished something that Bruce, Clark, Wally, Barry.....none of those guys have done. It should be seen as one of Dick's greatest accomplishments....unfortunately the only thing people remember is Chemo. 




> Guess Dick is back by the 75th issue milestone.


I'll believe it when I see it. DC has led us to believe Dick was returning to proper form before and lied to us, so they get nothing from me until I have concrete proof that this nightmare called Ric is truly over.

----------


## redmax99

[QUOTE=Ascended;4967294]Yup, exactly. Now consider the fact that Dick had a mission to save Bludhaven....and actually did it. Until Slade dropped a sludge monster on it anyway. Dick did something damn few other heroes have; successfully saved his city. Granted, the Chemo incident sorta cancels that out, but Dick accomplished something that Bruce, Clark, Wally, Barry.....none of those guys have done. It should be seen as one of Dick's greatest accomplishments....unfortunately the only thing people remember is Chemo. 



Bart saved his city he died, but he saved the whole west coast.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric won’t truly be over till the likes of Jurgans is gone. Even if they call him Dick again. As long as they keep the same mediocre and lazy creative team on nothing is going to really change.

----------


## AmiMizuno

My issue is why can't Bludhaven actually be safe. It does have dangerous crimes but it's not on the same level as Gotham. He doesn't have to worry about his city in flames. That since Clark and Bruce raised him maybe the city should be that. The city is more light than dark

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yup, exactly. Now consider the fact that Dick had a mission to save Bludhaven....and actually did it. Until Slade dropped a sludge monster on it anyway. Dick did something damn a few other heroes have; successfully saved his city. Granted, the Chemo incident sorta cancels that out, but Dick accomplished something that Bruce, Clark, Wally, Barry.....none of those guys have done. It should be seen as one of Dick's greatest accomplishments....unfortunately the only thing people remember is Chemo.


Neverending stories. Gotta destroy it to maintain the status quo.




> My issue is why can't Bludhaven actually be safe. It does have dangerous crimes but it's not on the same level as Gotham. He doesn't have to worry about his city in flames. That since Clark and Bruce raised him maybe the city should be that. The city is more light than dark


Well, technically, it started out more dangerous than Gotham since there's no Batman until Nightwing came along... The Rebirth version seems safer, at least on the surface, because there's no organized crime until Blockbuster returns...

But I get what you mean... the thing is... safe city doesn't create conflict, and a superhero needs conflict to operate

So if Bludhaven is safe, then Dick will move to somewhere else, another city that needs him. He will still call Bludhaven home since he's made friends there, but he won't stay there anymore if it's safe.

----------


## cc008

Just finished the first mini by Dennis ONeil.. onto the Chuck Dixon material now. Good stuff.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Neverending stories. Gotta destroy it to maintain the status quo.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, technically, it started out more dangerous than Gotham since there's no Batman until Nightwing came along... The Rebirth version seems safer, at least on the surface, because there's no organized crime until Blockbuster returns...
> 
> But I get what you mean... the thing is... safe city doesn't create conflict, and a superhero needs conflict to operate
> 
> So if Bludhaven is safe, then Dick will move to somewhere else, another city that needs him. He will still call Bludhaven home since he's made friends there, but he won't stay there anymore if it's safe.


You said there was no organized crime? What if there was but they never do it in the city. They want to have the look that Bludhaven is untouched by Gotham's trouble. That they don't need a superhero.

Interesting. One idea I did have is this. Bludhaven does have organized crim but never do they c

----------


## Ascended

> Bart saved his city he died, but he saved the whole west coast.


Bart....Allen? Impulse? When did he live on the west coast? Was this when he was the Flash? I dropped that book pretty quick....




> Ric won’t truly be over till the likes of Jurgans is gone. Even if they call him Dick again. As long as they keep the same mediocre and lazy creative team on nothing is going to really change.


Yeah, but one step at a time.




> Neverending stories. Gotta destroy it to maintain the status quo.


Well, yeah, but in-universe it should have been a bigger deal. Of course the story requires more problems and troubles to keep things going, so if Chemo hadn't happened then the Royal Flush Gang would've moved in, or something else would've happened. But it's a rare sight to see a hero actually complete his/her mission and drive the hardened criminal element out of a city. Dick should have gotten recognition for that.

----------


## redmax99

[QUOTE=Ascended;4967604]Bart....Allen? Impulse? When did he live on the west coast? Was this when he was the Flash? I dropped that book pretty quick....

yeah it at the ending of his book inertia and the rogues killed him. Iris came back from the future to get Bart to ask anyone for help to save his life, but he chose to accept his fate and die saving San Francisco. It was all part of the Jla, Jsa crossover lighting saga and countdown to final crisis.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah, but one step at a time.


One step at a time is just another way to insure the character continues to lose value. They already dragged this out too long as is. If they are going to leave Jurgen’s on so he can continue to drive general interest away with lazy factory recap and boring ideas like Condor Red, they should leave him as Ric. Calling him Dick again while leaving the same lazy complacent creators general readers have little interest in anymore, is just going to be further detrimental.

 These old dudes want to hide behind behind Ric and fans not willing to accept the idea, but at the end of the day the real problem is that these complement boring creators failed to convince people on the idea with their dated style and their low effort, no care, tone deaf execution. Step one the people currently on the book need to go otherwise there is no point to even bringing Dick back.

----------


## Digifiend

> That's not a Tie-in that's a whole arc! We can even count the current 2 issues with Punchline to make up a whole trade... unless it's already included, I forget which issue we're on and I don't care...


Already included. #70 was the most recent issue (on 18 March) and the first issue of Joker War overall.




> Guess Dick is back by the 75th issue milestone.


He is. The TPB is called The Return of Dick Grayson.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You said there was no organized crime? What if there was but they never do it in the city. They want to have the look that Bludhaven is untouched by Gotham's trouble. That they don't need a superhero.
> 
> Interesting. One idea I did have is this. Bludhaven does have organized crim but never do they c


No, there is organized crime, just smaller. Blockbuster was the kingpin.

Sorry, what was that last one? You're cutting out.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> No, there is organized crime, just smaller. Blockbuster was the kingpin.
> 
> Sorry, what was that last one? You're cutting out.


That Bludhaven is supposed to be this city that doesn't have to worry about crime. That all the organized crime isn't done in the city. It's done elsewhere. This lets Dick being able to look into the underworld but not worry about his city at the same time. That maybe Bludhaven is known for its entertainment industry. So no crime is committed in the city.

----------


## Electricmastro

Quite possibly Dick Graysons biggest claim to fame (World's Finest Comics #9, Spring 1943). Art by Jack Burnley:

----------


## WonderNight

A little change of topic, I'm not the biggest fan of bludhaven but it seems DC what's Bludhaven to be a thing so if dick has to be in bludhaven I'd what it to return back to the way tim seeley left it, A Vegas/Miami entertainment city.

So my question is what dc characters could join and fit bludhaven? Like white rabbit, the royal flush gang and zatanna ect. Who else do you see fitting a vegas Bludhaven?

----------


## AmiMizuno

That depends. I mean Booster Gold maybe since he always wants to be famous. I agree. I think Bludhaven should be a good entertainment business spot. That they have a booming movie industry

----------


## Godlike13

Books seem to be ending, wonder if 75 is Nightwing's last. Fingers crossed.

----------


## OWL45

> Books seem to be ending, wonder if 75 is Nightwing's last. Fingers crossed.


Seems like a strong possibility especially since Snyder wants to work with the character.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Is Synder working on Nightwing good or bad?

----------


## Godlike13

Good. Nightwing is in such creator hell right now, so anything that might get him out of his current fodder status. Even if its just a limited series. Snyder on Dick, ya ill take that.

----------


## cc008

> Is Synder working on Nightwing good or bad?


I see this as an absolute win.

----------


## Elmo

A Snyder run starting around 2021 would mark 10 years since Black Mirror. Very cool

----------


## Ascended

> Books seem to be ending, wonder if 75 is Nightwing's last. Fingers crossed.


Yeah, a relaunch is much more likely to get new creators, rather than Dick going back to Nightwing and keeping Jurgens on board.




> Is Synder working on Nightwing good or bad?


It's a win, no matter what it is. How much of a win will depend on whether it's a mini or the ongoing, whether it's in continuity or not, whether Dick is Nightwing or not, etc. But DC's biggest writer writing Dick is a win for the character.

----------


## Robanker

I've grown cooler and cooler on Snyder's writing over the years and even I'm thinking this is a win across the board. Dick needs all the help he can get.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #71 first look


https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-71-fir...bar-once-more/

https://www.newsarama.com/50236-nigh...-in-71.html#s8

https://butwhythopodcast.com/2020/05...rom-dc-comics/

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #71 first look
> 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-71-fir...bar-once-more/
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/50236-nigh...-in-71.html#s8
> 
> https://butwhythopodcast.com/2020/05...rom-dc-comics/


Ah. Tusk is back.

His tusks are back too

----------


## Godlike13

That variant is terrible.

----------


## qwazer07

> Nightwing #71 first look
> 
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-71-fir...bar-once-more/
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/50236-nigh...-in-71.html#s8
> 
> https://butwhythopodcast.com/2020/05...rom-dc-comics/


Meh. Really meh.

----------


## Robanker

Y'all remember when wearing red was the most of our concerns?

----------


## blade48

This is a little bit disturbing...

Reedhood48.jpg

RED HOOD: OUTLAW #48
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by BRETT BOOTH and DANNY MIKI
cover by DAN MORA
variant cover by PHILIP TAN
In the aftermath of the war between Batman and The Joker, Jason Todd has a few decisions to make. Does Gotham City—or the world at large—really need the Red Hood? If Jason contemplates retiring the Red Hood mask altogether, what does that mean for Artemis and Bizarro? Can the Outlaws continue to exist without their leader? A family reunion with Ric Grayson doesn’t go as planned as he brought along his new friend: Punchline!
FC | ON SALE 08.25.20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | DC
This issue will ship with two covers.

----------


## Godlike13

I might give a crap if they literally didn’t just do this an arc ago. Lobdell fought for Ric, so he can enjoy. These bottom tier books from lazy and boring, going no where, out of date creators can’t end soon enough.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Y'all remember when wearing red was the most of our concerns?


wasn't even my concern XD




> This is a little bit disturbing...
> 
> Reedhood48.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #48
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by BRETT BOOTH and DANNY MIKI
> cover by DAN MORA
> variant cover by PHILIP TAN
> ...


His first Joker-brainwashed costume reminds me of Bucky. This one reminds me of Nick Fury.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s the same awfully generic costume. The editors just can’t keep the color scheme consistent.

----------


## Godlike13

> Y'all remember when wearing red was the most of our concerns?


Wearing red was just one of the common concerns as we were seeing him be downgraded to a rookie creator and an artist who couldn’t even get more then 2 issues done. As they try to cobbled together a series with no actual direction from the the scraps of what was going on in Batman. Sure the rookie creator was an improvement to what we have now, at least he gave a shit, but underneath it all a lot of the problems now are problems we were seeing then. Just exasperated. Low tier creator support, tone deaf character decisions, and a complete dependency on Batman’s scraps to facilitate his book’s direction.

----------


## Rakiduam

> This is a little bit disturbing...
> 
> Reedhood48.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #48
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by BRETT BOOTH and DANNY MIKI
> cover by DAN MORA
> variant cover by PHILIP TAN
> ...


I think this is what lobdell wanted to write when he introduced this god awful storyline.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Can we just make Red Hood firmly a non-Batman book here on out that doesn't cross over so Lobdell's writing can just go away and not touch anyone but Jason?

----------


## Pohzee

> Can we just make Red Hood firmly a non-Batman book here on out that doesn't cross over so Lobdell's writing can just go away and not touch anyone but Jason?


It be ironic if Red Hood failed itself into the position that some fans here have wanted for Nightwing for ages

----------


## Restingvoice

> Can we just make Red Hood firmly a non-Batman book here on out that doesn't cross over so Lobdell's writing can just go away and not touch anyone but Jason?


It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway

Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to write X-Men again

----------


## Rakiduam

> It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway
> 
> Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to write X-Men again


Too late, the damage it's already done.

Edit: I'm amazed by his contacts though.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> It be ironic if Red Hood failed itself into the position that some fans here have wanted for Nightwing for ages


I'd be pretty pissed lol




> It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway
> 
> Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to *write X-Men again*


Well good for Batman i guess, but the X-Men were doing really well lately so sucks for them.

----------


## Claude

If Snyder's doing a separate project rather than a new Nightwing #1, what do people think of Josh Williamson as a potential writer? He's coming off a well-received run on "Flash" where he's played well with editorial without hugely impacting the quality of the book, he's staying DC exclusive as is "big but not too big" at the moment if you see what I mean. He's got a good eye for building up a corner of the DCU.

Although, given he's talked about "not being done" with the Flash Family I wonder if he's not more likely to get a Wally and Dick's generation "Titans" relaunch.


Also, there are probably people who'll know more about this than me - who do I have to sweet-talk to get a nice, hardcover Omnibus of Seeley's "Nightwing" run? All the issues in the main run, with _Nightwing Vs Hush_ as a coda please and thank you.

----------


## qwazer07

I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.


I think it would be better for the book to be the priority of up and coming talent than another pay check for an A-lister.

It is what gives me hope about what I have heard from the possible Snyder project.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I don't think Dick will be given the A list treatment because editorial hates him. He is the most popular character with constant bad stories. Wonder Woman too but they still treat her as an A list.


Well the main source of editorial hate is gone now, so hopefully things are looking up a bit

----------


## qwazer07

> I think it would be better for the book to be the priority of up and coming talent than another pay check for an A-lister.
> 
> It is what gives me hope about what I have heard from the possible Snyder project.


Sounds like the New 52 and Rebirth all over again. We never get the Moore, Lemire, Fraction, Hickman, etc. We only get lucky with Snyder and King because they were new. After a year or two, they were shipped to Batman. Life sucks.

----------


## Konja7

> Sounds like the New 52 and Rebirth all over again. We never get the Moore, Lemire, Fraction, Hickman, etc. We only get lucky with Snyder and King because they were new. After a year or two, they were shipped to Batman. Life sucks.


Yeah. And even Snyder handle Dick when he was Batman, so I'm not sure it counts. After all, DC allows that A list writers handle when he was Batman.

As you say, if the new talent is good, they will probably ship this new talent to Batman at the end.

----------


## qwazer07

> Yeah. And even Snyder handle Dick when he was Batman, so I'm not sure it counts. After all, DC allows that A list writers handle when he was Batman.
> 
> As you say, if the new talent is good, they will probably ship this new talent to Batman at the end.


I don't have hope of any kind. Better that way than be disappointed by DC again and again. I'm used to it.

----------


## Ascended

Do we have any more info on Snyder's Grayson book yet?

----------


## Robanker

> Do we have any more info on Snyder's Grayson book yet?


Just that it can't come soon enough.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It's just one issue and it's not like he's in character anyway
> 
> Also, I heard Lobdell's leaving to write X-Men again


Actually, according to Bleeding Cool, Lobdell signed a 6 figure contract with Netflix for his Ball & Chain series.

----------


## qwazer07

> Actually, according to Bleeding Cool, Lobdell signed a 6 figure contract with Netflix for his Ball & Chain series.


Good for him. Creator owned properties should always be supported since they promote more creativity. But.. a lot of his comics still suck. Not a fan.

----------


## Digifiend

Hickman will be on X-Men for a least another couple of years anyway, so Lobdell couldn't have been leaving for that.

----------


## Ascended

> If Snyder's doing a separate project rather than a new Nightwing #1, what do people think of Josh Williamson as a potential writer?


I'd be willing to hear him out. His Flash hasn't totally blown me away or anything, but he's a quality talent and, as you said, he's "big but not too big" and seems capable of working around editorial without letting it derail him. He's worked well within the framework of the Flash mythos and built upon what was there in a fairly logical way.

It all depends on what a writer would want to do and where they'd want to take the character, as well as what editorial will _allow_ them to do. Right now, nobody gets a free pass (from me) just on the merit of name recognition. Dick's been too abused in recent years; not only do we need quality story telling, we also need some damage control and TLC to repair what has been done. 

I'd be very willing to see what Williamson would want to do, but whether I'd support him on Nightwing would depend on what kind of Nightwing we get from him. But of all the various writers who might theoretically get the gig, Williamson seems like maybe one of the better options.

I feel like the artist/s needs serious consideration too. Dick's such a visual character, and I feel like after everything we've been through the last few years with Nightwing, the title has to look better than usual if DC wants to start earning some trust back. Depending on the kind of story and approach the writer goes for, I'd think someone like Jorge Jimenez or Dan Mora would be good, but I dunno if DC would let Jorge do Nightwing (he's becoming too big a deal I think, after JL) but Mora might be on the right "big but not too big" level.

----------


## sifighter

Id take Williamson for Nightwing. Hes generally a fun writer who knows how to play with the bigger parts of the DC universe. Not to mention hes already writing Batman over in Batman/Superman, which I enjoyed, so I think he could make for a good Nightwing writer.

----------


## AmiMizuno

For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?

----------


## Elmo

> For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?


-circus kid
-first robin
-has been bruce's partner since his early days
-founded the titans
-was inspired by superman to become nightwing
-at some point, became batman
-his name is dick grayson

if a writer took everything away from Dick but made sure those core aspects of his history remained, i wouldn't be too upset

----------


## Ascended

> For all of you what are the most important parts of Dick Grayson's history?


Hmm. Just in the broad strokes, and not giving this a ton of thought.....

Origin, death in the family (the fallout, anyway; I feel like this played a big part in the Dick-Bruce split), formation of the NTT, origin of Nightwing, almost-marriage to Kori, moving to Bludhaven (the first time), DickBats version 2, Spyral.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Sorry. I mean if they were to reboot Nightwing. What should stay and what should be thrown out. I think we can all agree about Rick. Like should Bludhaven be destroyed?

----------


## Godlike13

Bludhaven can be cut out, which is part of its problem. They continue to fail to make it a genuinely important to the character. 

Seeley tried to rebuild it as something more unique, while acknowledging that there is nothing inherently there that grounds Dick to it, and so understood that this was something that they would have to built over time. Unfortunately the lazy creators who took over his book ignored that and just pretended it was. Insulting readers as if they don't know it hasn't just become this island they have chosen to maroon him on. Bludhaven now needs Nightwing, even though prior to Ric Nightwing was a new comer Bludhaven didn't want. It now also lack any resemblance to the Bludhaven in the beginning of the series, and fell back into the generic Gotham-lite of old. Proving Bludhaven to be nothing but a trap for lazy creators to more easily jump in and churn out traditional lazy stories with the same tired formulas that worked for other characters.

----------


## Ascended

> Sorry. I mean if they were to reboot Nightwing. What should stay and what should be thrown out. I think we can all agree about Rick. Like should Bludhaven be destroyed?


Oh, I gotcha. 

My list remains the same. I don't believe in reboots. They only ever cause problems, they are (almost) never the solution.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I would really think Bludhaven and Nightwing can work if done well. Almost any good writer can turn a dumb idea good. For example, Bludhaven can easily be an entertainment city. They have good movie studios there and a few other things going on. Nightwing does still help the city but if he has to leave the city will not burn. If we had to give him a job the easiest thing is a Private I or stunt man? I mean if we can use the Circus might as well find a job that allows him to travel. I mean if we can't have him living off him being a hero. Might as well made him use his other skills. I mean Bruce, JL, or the Wayne industry shouldn't be paying. Then again maybe the whole Job thing doesn't have to be known.  I mean with the Private I thing is how does Dick get to be in contact with the police? Unless he was a cop but got fired for busting corrupted cops

----------


## Godlike13

It’s not that Bludhaven can’t work, but making Bludhaven work, truly work, requires more commitment and consistency then those managing the book are willing to put in. Rather then to truly provide the character with a unique and interesting setting creators can fill, as it is the point of Bludhaven is to just facilitate laziness.

Right now the laziness traps need to go, cause the people on the book have proven themselves to have very little professional integrity. They do not care if they are even producing a decent book, let alone a good one. So any excuse to be lazy they abuse. Dick needs those traps stripped away so that the people behind his book are forced to have to actually do their job with more consideration and effort. Grayson for example did that.

----------


## qwazer07

Bludhaven is whatever to me. What the book needs is a great creative team and a supporting editorial team. Love interest. Location. Job. All of these will come after. With enough talent anything could work.

----------


## dropkickjake

I've got no problem with reboots perse, but I'm not a fan of trying to make things fit into neat little timelines.

In any case, I think the essentials for Dick are:

Circus origin
Robin at a young age
NTT
Batman Reborn Era
Grayson

For me, everything else can be either thrown out or heavily reconceptualized. Heck... there are certain things I might reconceptualize even among that list. Dick motives for infiltrating spyral, for example. I'd throw out the Forever Evil/Batman sending him on a mission in favor of Dick taking matters into his own hands.

----------


## K7P5V

> Hmm. Just in the broad strokes, and not giving this a ton of thought.....
> 
> Origin, death in the family (the fallout, anyway; I feel like this played a big part in the Dick-Bruce split), formation of the NTT, origin of Nightwing, almost-marriage to Kori, moving to Bludhaven (the first time), DickBats version 2, Spyral.


I very much agree with this. And if it's not a bother, I would also like to add a personal favorite...

*Batman: Prodigal*

----------


## Ascended

> [center]I very much agree with this. And if it's not a bother, I would also like to add a personal favorite...
> 
> *Batman: Prodigal*


I almost included this too, actually.  :Big Grin:  It seems like this is when Dick and Bruce's relationship started to be mended after years of strife. 

I didn't include it on my list mostly because I feel like Bruce sending Dick to Bludhaven was the real turning point. Prodigal felt like a father asking his son to mind the store while the old man ran to the bank, while Bludhaven was a much bigger show of trust and respect (and they still didn't get along until well after Dick had decided to stay there).

But I definitely agree Prodigal could be considered a milestone in Dick's history. 

As far as reboots go.....if you're gonna reboot a character, then you shouldn't do what previous versions did, otherwise the reboot is even more stupid and pointless than reboots are in the first place. So about the only thing you need is "Dick becomes Robin" "Dick becomes a Titan" and "Dick becomes Nightwing" and that's it. The stuff I listed is what I figure are essential moments in Dick's life that have contributed to who he is and how we understand him as a character....but if you reboot him? None of it matters; it's a fresh start.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So I guess I should have said what would you want a retcon than a reboot.

----------


## K7P5V

> I almost included this too, actually.  It seems like this is when Dick and Bruce's relationship started to be mended after years of strife. 
> 
> I didn't include it on my list mostly because I feel like Bruce sending Dick to Bludhaven was the real turning point. Prodigal felt like a father asking his son to mind the store while the old man ran to the bank, while Bludhaven was a much bigger show of trust and respect (and they still didn't get along until well after Dick had decided to stay there).


Can't argue with that, actually. Chuck Dixon deserves major props for his run on Bludhaven.




> But I definitely agree Prodigal could be considered a milestone in Dick's history.


Thanks. Your response means a lot.  :Big Grin: 




> As far as reboots go.....if you're gonna reboot a character, then you shouldn't do what previous versions did, otherwise the reboot is even more stupid and pointless than reboots are in the first place. So about the only thing you need is "Dick becomes Robin" "Dick becomes a Titan" and "Dick becomes Nightwing" and that's it. The stuff I listed is what I figure are essential moments in Dick's life that have contributed to who he is and how we understand him as a character....but if you reboot him? None of it matters; it's a fresh start.


LOL! I totally get it.

As you said, Dick's history rests on a solid foundation. A good creative team can build upon that if they're willing to put their minds to it.  :Wink:

----------


## WonderNight

If I was to reboot Nightwing (not dick) I'd just lay down the core ground work.

1) location- I'd prefer nightwing globetrotting but I get DC what's bludhaven so I'd go with that. Bludhaven should be the metropolis of entertainment, full of casinos, resorts, nightclubs ect. It has so much potential. It could have the world's biggest Tokyo town district full of Japanese culture like anime, video games and restaurants. It could have it's own MSG of all the big live events. A famous beach like miami. Just so much potential to have something unique to nightwing.

2)Career- The new and improved Halys circus. Dick own the circus and rebuilds it for his family legacy and for the poor and youth of bludhaven to have jobs. This fit the new bludhaven with the vegas look.

3)DCU- If dick can't go out into the DCU than bring it to him! Tourists, drug, weapons and meta human trafficking ect. Have other heroes and characters live there also like with Gotham (sideways, black canary) and metropolis (black lightning, traci 13) characters that fits the new bludhaven like Zatanna, Vixen, deadman, the royal flush gang and with his speed wally stops by to hang with his best bro.

This would be a good foundation for nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> So I guess I should have said what would you want a retcon than a reboot.


Well, I'd like to mess with the Court of Owls and their connection to Haly's. I don't really mind that the Court recruited from the circus, and it does make a kind of sense in that these are skilled athletes with little to lose and nobody to miss them, but I'd like to spin it so Haly himself isn't as culpable as I think he was in the original story (but I haven't read any of that in a long time so I may be remembering it wrong). And Dick would've just been one of the performers the Court was keeping an eye on for future recruitment, none of this "grand prophesy of the Gray Son" nonsense. Dick is special enough without the story making him into some sort of golden child. Though I think that was more Dick's granddaddy Cobb more than anything? Where's Dropkick to refresh my memory when I need him?  :Big Grin: 

Beyond that, I really don't think there's anything we need to retcon, just some stuff we should ignore, never mention again, and pretend didn't happen. Like Ric.

Especially Ric.




> Thanks. Your response means a lot.


Ha! Thanks, but I'm just a jackass, stuck inside during a pandemic, on the internet.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And I agree with WonderNight about pretty much everything he/she said. Though if I had it my way, Dick would most definitely be a globe trotting hero. He can live in Bludhaven and the city should have that Vegas vibe, and Dick can own a renewed Haly's, but I really like that traveling element to Dick.

----------


## AmiMizuno

This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious with what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family

----------


## Robanker

Milestones for Dick Grayson? 

*Origin (orphaned ten year-old acrobat)
*Robin Year One (complete with his savage beating at the hands of Two Face, cementing his hatred of him)
*The longest tenure of any Robin/World's Finest (before the Justice League forms)
*Forming the Fab Five Teen Titans/DickBabs happening as they become teens
*Forming the New Teen Titans/Friction with Bruce
*Giving up Robin and taking on Nightwing
*Almost marrying Kori.
*Prodigal
*Bludhaven
*DickBats
*Agent 37
*Returning to Nightwing

And that's more or less it. Obviously I'm omitting stuff like nearly killing The Joker for good in Last Laugh, taking a bullet for Bruce in Infinite Crisis and the like, but if I were making a "Nightwing 101" video, this is probably what I'd cover.

You ignore Ric, and while I could take a dig at it, ultimately it's because it doesn't matter for him as a character. Look at Superman Blue. It's a moment we remember for being silly, but in the greater tapestry of Superman's history, it actually doesn't come into play much outside of a reference here or there, but if you had to truncate Superman's life into a six issue mini, I imagine it gets cut very early. Likewise, Ric is an editorial mandate to spin plates and devalue an IP. Yeah, we hate it, but it's going to just be forgotten save for the butt of a joke, a la Jared Stevens as *FATE*.

I guess I did take a dig at it. Whoops. I regret nothing.

----------


## WonderNight

> This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious with what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family


Yes I do ship Dick and zatanna and they fit better in my mind but that's not why I what zatanna, vixen and someothers in a vegas bludhaven. 

It's also so character like nightwing, zatanna, vixen ect can help each other out. Nightwing needs a recurring cast of faces that matters and can stay form creator to creator and stronger ties to the DCU outside if batman.

Those other characters are only in teambooks or limbo. Them in bludhaven could give them a semi home book. Something to do outside of team books like zatanna being one of dick's Haly circus star performer's, or vixen stopping by for a fashion show, lex and bruce stopping by for some billionaire gambling or lois and Clark to cover a big POV event.

This way these characters don't have to spin time set'in in limbo waiting on a new teambook and dick has his recurring cast and nightwing and bludhaven are more connected to the DCU. This is a shared universe right.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?

----------


## Restingvoice

> How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?


They interact as fellow Justice League candidates and members but that's about as much as I know

----------


## Restingvoice

> This could easily have Dick breaking down the court of owls hold the Cirus. Also, do the Court of Owls do crimes? So if this is the case Dick can easily go and invested each crime-stopping them. I'm curious about what Dc has given us so far Babs, Kori, and now Zatanna. So should Dick dick Zatanna has a new change or just stay within the family


The Court's hold on the circus already broken the moment Dick inherited it, and even after the Circus left Dick, none of the current generations of members know about Haly's dealing with The Court.

The Court still kidnaps children, commit political murder, and human trafficking. The first arc of Nightwing Rebirth was crime-stopping them and it's one of the better arcs. 

Zatanna in the comic canon was Bruce's childhood love interest. They're around the same age range. I'd personally avoid sharing women between father and son.

----------


## bob.schoonover

> If I was to reboot Nightwing (not dick) I'd just lay down the core ground work.
> 
> 1) location- I'd prefer nightwing globetrotting but I get DC what's bludhaven so I'd go with that. Bludhaven should be the metropolis of entertainment, full of casinos, resorts, nightclubs ect. It has so much potential. It could have the world's biggest Tokyo town district full of Japanese culture like anime, video games and restaurants. It could have it's own MSG of all the big live events. A famous beach like miami. Just so much potential to have something unique to nightwing.
> 
> 2)Career- The new and improved Halys circus. Dick own the circus and rebuilds it for his family legacy and for the poor and youth of bludhaven to have jobs. This fit the new bludhaven with the vegas look.
> 
> 3)DCU- If dick can't go out into the DCU than bring it to him! Tourists, drug, weapons and meta human trafficking ect. Have other heroes and characters live there also like with Gotham (sideways, black canary) and metropolis (black lightning, traci 13) characters that fits the new bludhaven like Zatanna, Vixen, deadman, the royal flush gang and with his speed wally stops by to hang with his best bro.
> 
> This would be a good foundation for nightwing.


I think I'd rather they update the circus concept in concert with Bludhaven's location - instead of a circus, something like a family entertainment plaza/arcade.  You'd still have the Haly's repertoire - animal shows, feats of daring, magic acts, etc., but more like a Vegas casino with Sigfried & Roy and Cirque du Soleil both under the same roof.  It can still be named after Haly and keep Dick close to his roots, but if he's running one of the entertainment companies in Bludhaven, he'd be in the middle of the action: thwarting plots against his business, getting leaned on for protection money, overhearing schemes at the bar, etc.  It's also good (as you say) for tying Dick into the rest of the DC Universe. Since some spies know and trust Dick, they might want to use Haly's as a meeting place with informants; Zatanna might want to perform there; it's certainly the kind of place Hal and Ollie might go to blow off steam (Jason and Roy whenever he comes back, too); and Young Justice or the Teen Titans might sneak out for a night on the town whenever.

----------


## Rac7d*

> How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?


She actually an ally or Barbra

----------


## Digifiend

Eh? She wasn't a Bird of Prey, was she?

----------


## qwazer07

Big question time!

How would you feel if DC gave Dick Grayson his one true love? Don't really care if it's Babs, Kori, Helena, etc. As in they go all in and push this OTP like Lois and Clark. Would you be happy or even accept it? Any benefits or worries for the former bachelor Grayson.

----------


## Ascended

Pushing a legit, "this is The One" mandated love interest for Dick? I'd feel like DC was putting in the smallest effort possible to build a foundation for him. A main love interest isn't a necessary thing, but it's one of the cornerstones of fiction, and in comics is one of those boxes you really want to check off if you're aiming for the A-list. This is something they likely should have been doing already, so my reaction would probably be closer to "you're finally doing your jobs, about time" than anything else. Dick doesn't necessarily *need* a main love interest, but it's generally a positive thing to include. 

Whether I'd support it....depends on the execution. And who "The One" was. I won't pretend like that wouldn't influence me. But a lot of things can be forgiven or overlooked if the execution is quality, and if the story was worth reading then I can get over it if "my" choice for Dick's love interest wasn't the lucky gal.

----------


## qwazer07

I think it will be dangerous. A lot of people will be mad and salty. DC would have a lot more to lose than to gain.

----------


## Godlike13

You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers aren’t great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So it’s not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Big question time!
> 
> How would you feel if DC gave Dick Grayson his one true love? Don't really care if it's Babs, Kori, Helena, etc. As in they go all in and push this OTP like Lois and Clark. Would you be happy or even accept it? Any benefits or worries for the former bachelor Grayson.


I don't care but I know a lot of people care and DC knows it will break the fanbase so that's why they haven't done it. The one time they made him married, they made him married twice at the same time. I laughed when I saw Convergence 80s Dick married Kori and Post Crisis Dick married Babs. That's when I know they know. XD

----------


## WonderNight

> How does Vixen fit in Nightwing's world?


well vixen is one of the biggest and most famous models in world. Nightwing owning a entertainment business gives vixen a reason to stop by bludhaven everyonce in a while for fashion shows and team ups.

This helps both by giving vixen a place she can show up sometimes instead of set'in limbo for years not being used, bludhaven would feel like a more rich city and nightwing would feel more connected to the larger superhero community.

----------


## WonderNight

> Zatanna in the comic canon was Bruce's childhood love interest. They're around the same age range. I'd personally avoid sharing women between father and son.


So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.

Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.

As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.

----------


## WonderNight

> You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers arent great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So its not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.


Sure just have him move back to Gotham and change his name to Batboy and we're good.

I'd just prefer a nightwing/Flash (wally) book.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zoe don't have to be a ship.
> 
> Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
> 
> As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.


Wait I thought we're talking about ships. We're not?

----------


## WonderNight

> Wait I thought we're talking about ships. We're not?


I love dick and zee as a ship but no this is not about a ship.

It's about characters benefiting though connections and a shared universe. So that characters like nightwing can have a richer world by having popular characters like zatanna or deadman as recurring cast both as civilians and heroes. It also helps characters like zatanna have more opportunities for development and appearances outside of just team book like JLD so they don't in up spending years in limbo like vixen, power girl and captain atom are right now.

Nightwing would get some popular characters as recurring cast for his solo, bludhaven would be a richer popular city and it'll be easier for bludhaven to maintain its Vegas feel with some popular characters that also has that vegas entertainment feel to them like zatanna a stage magician, vixen a fashion model and deadman a acorbat. It's not about shipping it's about world building.

Zatanna wouldn't have to go to limbo for years waiting for a new teambook every time JLD gets cancelled. Plus if zatanna ever get a new solo her home being bludhaven only makes bludhaven a richer city and nightwing's world feels bigger, richer and more connected to other heroes and the larger DCU.

We all know nightwing can't keep a civilian supporting cast to save his life and his connections and are in the hero community so play on it, and we also know character like zatanna needs development and stability outside of team books.

It's a win win, its characters world building together in a shared universe and being bigger than the some of there part's.

----------


## Godlike13

> Sure just have him move back to Gotham and change his name to Batboy and we're good.
> 
> I'd just prefer a nightwing/Flash (wally) book.


He is basically already there. The Bat office isn’t letting go of Dick, they just aren’t. It’s a title they get to pad their line with and “pretend” to work on with seemingly no accountability or quality control. They basically have a book where they get paid to poop. Trying to figure out how to make Dick generally appealing again while tethered to a lazy Bat office is the character’s unfortunate reality.

----------


## WonderNight

> He is basically already there. The Bat office isn’t letting go of Dick, they just aren’t. It’s a title they get to pad their line with and “pretend” to work on with seemingly no accountability or quality control. They basically have a book where they get paid to poop. Trying figure out how to make Dick generally appealing again while tethered to a lazy Bat office is the character’s unfortunate reality.


With red hood getting cancelled I can see them cancelling nightwing moving him back to Gotham and throwing him into a ROBIN: the boy wonder's book with the other Robin's. Sad who far dick fallen.

----------


## yash

So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?

----------


## Rac7d*

> With red hood getting cancelled I can see them cancelling nightwing moving him back to Gotham and throwing him into a ROBIN: the boy wonder's book with the other Robin's. Sad who far dick fallen.


This ain’t happening

----------


## Ascended

> You guys are going to love this idea but honestly a Nightwing/Batgirl book might not be the worse idea. Both books numbers arenÂt great, Ric and apathy have not been kind. So itÂs not like a simple relaunch is going to re-attract general audiences at this point. Nightwing/Batgirl potentially pools their fan bases, is generally favorable, while also combines the work load for an office that struggles to find the work ethic or capacity to properly support multiple books.


As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's. 

Would a simple relaunch be able to get the sales numbers back up on Nightwing? Who knows? But wingnuts are a passionate and loyal fanbase; I mean look at how long it took for the sales on Ric to finally start falling. I'd bet that if you put Dick back in proper shape with a fairly respectable creative team and a shiny new #1 on the cover, sales will start to recover relatively fast. Might take some time for them to get back to their old heights, but I don't think it would take long for sales to start the recovery process.

----------


## Elmo

> So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?


I skim from time to time but I don’t put a penny toward this book. It’s wack. A lot of it feels like filler, and at this point I’m dying for it to just be over. It was a mistake and it’s like they just kept adding fuel to the fire. This has been an absolutely tragic time for Nightwing fans honestly. I miss having Dick Grayson in my books, it really feels like the last few writers that have handled him just don’t understand him. 
Anyway, I don’t recommend this saga. In about 6 months we’ll see where things are headed

----------


## Claude

> As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's.


It's been mentioned before, and seems to have come up on Twitter more recently, that Seeley and King pitched a "Nightwing And Batgirl" series, but DC didn't take them up on it.

----------


## qwazer07

> So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.
> 
> Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
> 
> As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.


God. You are giving me nightmares when Kyle Rayner said Zatanna was old enough to be her mother. That was sad.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What about weird character paring? Like Katana and Dick? I so dar aother pairing is Power Girl.

----------


## wvchemteach

> So dick and zatanna can't work together as business partners or heroes because of zatanna's relationship with Bruce? Dick and zee don't have to be a ship.
> 
> Zatanna would help bludhaven be a richer city that matters beyond nightwing live's there, like black lightning with metropolis a d helps keep it its vegas feel. Plus zatanna needs a place outside of JLD to get some spotlight, we barely get to see zatanna as a stage magician anymore.
> 
> As far as zatanna's age, well I do like zatanna's relationship with Bruce I'd prefer zatanna be deaged to her mid to late 20's. I believe zee as a character and performer works better in her 20's than her being close to menopause.


I think one way a de-aged Zatanna would mix well in Dick's world would be if her father performed in Haly's circus for a few years when both Dick and Zatanna were young and the two were childhood friends.

----------


## Godlike13

> So, I dropped NW a good few issues before seely left and then got wind of Ric and some of the dialogues I saw was cringe so I didn't bother, have things gotten better or worse?


Worse. They forcing it to be stretched even more, repeating premises they literally just did.

----------


## AmiMizuno

It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.

----------


## Godlike13

> As much as I dislike the Dick-Babs ship, I've actually considered that too (or a Dick-Damian book, or Dick-Tim, or Dick running the whole Gotham Knights crew, etc). But I don't know that it would work; pooling the fanbases is only viable if there's little overlap between them in the first place. Do most people who buy Nightwing (when it's good) also buy Batgirl (when it's good)? I've never seen market research on it but I'd assume the fanbases are largely the same, so a co-lead title isn't likely to sell much better than the solo's. 
> 
> Would a simple relaunch be able to get the sales numbers back up on Nightwing? Who knows? But wingnuts are a passionate and loyal fanbase; I mean look at how long it took for the sales on Ric to finally start falling. I'd bet that if you put Dick back in proper shape with a fairly respectable creative team and a shiny new #1 on the cover, sales will start to recover relatively fast. Might take some time for them to get back to their old heights, but I don't think it would take long for sales to start the recovery process.


Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.

----------


## WonderNight

> God. You are giving me nightmares when Kyle Rayner said Zatanna was old enough to be her mother. That was sad.


yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.

Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.

----------


## Restingvoice

Travis Moore's Dick for auction

tumblr_53c273a88f0d2575e798df40714b5a05_94097762_640.jpg

The pretty eyelashes are always there in his art, but he puts an extra pinch on the lips for this one

----------


## Godlike13

Shouldn’t he be auctioning his Ric... :Cool:

----------


## Digifiend

> yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.
> 
> Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.


Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.

----------


## WonderNight

> Even the Young Justice cartoon used her as the Team's "sixth ranger", as TV Tropes calls it (the main team was six members, she was the seventh member of the Team, with one more, Rocket, an "eleventh hour ranger", joining before the end of the first season), instead of as a Justice Leaguer (she did join the League after the timeskip at the start of season 2 though). So it's clear they see her as part of the younger generation. YJ may have combined Dick's and Tim's generations, but Zee was the only traditional (i.e. not Titans graduate) JLA member to end up with the kids instead of the adults.


Also zatanna being younger make her father not being around more impactful, and allows her father to be young enough tohave been around with the JL even as an older member.

----------


## John Venus

I've warmed up to the Dick/Zatanna thing over time. I think the idea is worth exploring either in the main continuity or in an Elseworlds. Dick and Starfire are from two different genres so I have a hard time imagining how a couples book with the two of them could work while Dick/Babs feel like two peas in a pod. There is not enough contrast between them.  Dick and Zatanna are performers and have a much lighter view on the world, not to mention a lot of sex appeal.  Plus, you can have stories that can slide from regular crime stories to the more fantastical magical stuff or a mix of the two.  Dick and Zatanna could start off as a fun, sexy relationship but over time you can see their differences come to light. Maybe Zatanna is splitting her commitment between Dick and her work. She is always away to perform somewhere else while Dick has to go elsewhere. Maybe Dick, the globe trotting bachelor hero prefers having a steady partner with him to share his adventures. Maybe there are situations like with the high end magic stuff where he is completely useless and makes him wonder if Bruce has a point when it comes to contingency plans. I don't know, it could be fun.  

Though my ideal would be Zatara and Thomas as friends, Zatanna and Bruce in the same generation and Zachary in the Teen Titans/Young Justice generation. Whilst, I love YJ, in the comics Zatanna debuted only a couple of years after Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer, making her absolutely a part of the Silver Age revamp/revival of old DC properties. She just never had her own title for quarter of a century. Putting her in the YJ team with Zatara as a Leaguer is like having a teenage Hal or Barry in the Titans while Alan or Jay are League members. Besides, I don't think there is a problem with her being 30+ and the League needs an adult female powerhouse besides Wonder Woman.  Zee, Ralph and Tornado fall into that category of JL members who served for more than a hundred issues and yet they are not 'counted' as part of the Big 7.  Plus, Zee is one of the few female heroes with a male side kick.  

I think both approaches are worth exploring and lets face it, DC has done weirder stuff when it comes to their characters.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It would also give Dick access to other things. I mean he could be part of JLD at times due to Zataana.


I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael

----------


## John Venus

> I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael


Precisely why it would be interesting. He would be a fish out of water.

----------


## Ascended

> Wingnuts are the easiest sell, it’s getting a general audience that is going to be hard to get back. The readers who could be interested in Dick even though he might not be their very favorite. That’s were numbers over 30k are. Numbers aren’t just going to bounce back after 2 years of being the worse thing on the selves. That’s why quality control and character protection is important. The more shit they produce with the character, the more audiences start seeing the character as shit. Dick will be lucky if his next series levels off in the bottom 30’s now after Ric is done. Remember how people thought all it would take is a decent creative team and a new #1 to get the YJ characters to sell again.


I'm not disagreeing; like I said it'll take time to get sales back up to where they were. What I'm saying is I don't know if the fanbase between Babs and Dick is separate enough; do most people who read Nightwing also read Batgirl (when the books are good)? If so, a team-up book isn't going to do a lot, other than maybe get the base fans back, who'd return for Dick anyway. I *do* think the character could bounce back *relatively* fast, but that doesn't mean just a couple months.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I don't know if YJ is a truly apt comparison though; that book hadn't existed for years, it's a different situation than Nightwing.

----------


## dropkickjake

While I'd enjoy a Batgirl/Nightwing book, I dont think it'd be a smart sales move. I think both books are capable of being above average sellers. Combining them to one book feels like leaving money on the table.

I do honestly think that a relaunch and a good creative team will really bounce his numbers back up. Just give it a *bit* of publicity. The core fans will be relieved to finally have nightwing on the shelves again, which alone should get us back to the fairly high sales floor Nightwing has normally had. Then making it good... ie giving a good a creative team some freedom... that should get us back into respectable numbers.

As for OTP... while I'm not opposed in theory, that is a tough nut to crack for Dick. You've got two very entrenched camps as far as otp goes already. Furthermore, Dick just really seems to make the most sense with another hero; he's not really one for a normal civilian life so where would he meet and how could he upkeep a "normal" girlfriend. Next, when it comes to pairings, it is just functionally problematic to pair him with an established hero, as she is going to have her own publication schedule and story lines and another creator taking her in their own direction. Original characters are possible, but difficult to pull off. For example, I just really wasn't a fan of Shawn, even thought I loved most of Seeley's work.

I think the best course of action there, honestly, is to not push any pairing as OTP, throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Create some characters for Dick to be in a relationship with, take them slow, let it build, see how the fanbase takes is.

----------


## bearman

Nightwing, inc.
Dick and a rotating cast... Robins, Titans, aliens, magicians, Bats...but mostly Wally!

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I don’t think the occult fits him like it does Jason Damian or hell even azrael


True but he has fought them before. It would be interesting to see.


All I have to say about Dick in D animated movies is I hope they do better with him. He is a skilled fighter yet he gets his but handed to him a lot

----------


## WonderNight

> I've warmed up to the Dick/Zatanna thing over time. I think the idea is worth exploring either in the main continuity or in an Elseworlds. Dick and Starfire are from two different genres so I have a hard time imagining how a couples book with the two of them could work while Dick/Babs feel like two peas in a pod. There is not enough contrast between them.  Dick and Zatanna are performers and have a much lighter view on the world, not to mention a lot of sex appeal.  Plus, you can have stories that can slide from regular crime stories to the more fantastical magical stuff or a mix of the two.  Dick and Zatanna could start off as a fun, sexy relationship but over time you can see their differences come to light. Maybe Zatanna is splitting her commitment between Dick and her work. She is always away to perform somewhere else while Dick has to go elsewhere. Maybe Dick, the globe trotting bachelor hero prefers having a steady partner with him to share his adventures. Maybe there are situations like with the high end magic stuff where he is completely useless and makes him wonder if Bruce has a point when it comes to contingency plans. I don't know, it could be fun.


People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.

Heck I'm hoping that zatanna is the mother of dick's daughter the new batwoman beyond because that would then allow batwoman to keep her connection to the supernatural.

----------


## Shamrock Holmes

> yeah DCU just think zee's age there just show her as her 20s.
> 
> Zatanna and Bruce friendship is good but the problem is as batman is aged so to is zatanna. When zatanna is old enough to be tim and stephanie's mother it doesn't feel right and doesn't work with how DC see and uses her.


Well, Zatanna was specifically ID'd as 18 when her father disappeared, and she joined the League about a year later IIRC, and Dick was generally stated as being in his mid to late teens during the same period. So in theory they could be as close as five years apart, which is similar to the Silver & Bronze Age gap between Dick and Babs IIRC.

----------


## Rac7d*

> People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.
> 
> Heck I'm hoping that zatanna is the mother of dick's daughter the new batwoman beyond because that would then allow batwoman to keep her connection to the supernatural.


Zatanna is in her 40s and she is not getting dunked in a Lazarus pit every now and then

----------


## dropkickjake

> People are just going to ship what they want, BUT if DC had a blind match making app, based on their backgrounds, personality, sex appeal and heroics dick and zatanna would easily be each others 1st/top matches.


Says people are going to ship who they want.
Proceeds to ship who they want.

Seriously though, in the YJ Universe I ship the two of them (though tbf I do like the idea that people don't end up with their first girlfriend in that show). Wouldn't make too much sense in the main universe without a pretty hefty reboot/retconning of Zee's history. 

Also, while I think the pairing would make sense if you fudged Zatanna's age and history a bit, I think that's true of plenty of female heroes.

----------


## Godlike13

Does Zatanna need to be the same age as Dick? Personally speaking on paper it seems like an interesting pairing, but I do not like when Dick’s love interests are shared with others in Batfamily so all things being fair I don’t think Bruce’s should be either. Jason banging Talia made me as uncomfortable as Bruce banging Babs. Hell Catwoman trying to seduce Dick was gross to me. I don’t know where Zatanna lands exactly. As love interests goes she’s not anywhere near Talia or Babs respectively, and there aren’t any mother or mentor connotations, but even so I’m just not sure.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea this is why I have an issue with Dick and Babs. Since Dc does at times make Babs and Bruce date. Which is why I rather have him date Kori. I mean Zatanna and Bruce isn't the most popular couple. I mean even if they aren't the same age it wouldn't be too bad. I mean how age is she suppose to be?

----------


## qwazer07

I don't get the issue. Babs is passed around the Bat family. Why is it Dick who has to take the blame? Not Bruce? Jason? Tim? Luke? Kori also slept with Roy. Are we also removing Kori? What about Damian and Raven? I'm pretty sure Dick and Raven had dream sex. Dick can date Zatanna.

----------


## Godlike13

Point is I’m not okay with Babs being passed around the Bat Family, or Jason and Roy high fiving over banging Kori. So all things being equal, I don’t think Bruce’s love interests should be shared between the family either.

----------


## qwazer07

Babs, Kori, Talia, etc. don't belong to Dick, Bruce, etc. They are not just a love interest. Batman fans gets too defensive over their ships. "Oh, Talia, Catwoman, Babs, etc. can't date the boys. They belong to Batman." Jesus. Stop being insecure over fictional character relationships. When has been the last time Bruce and Zee ever been in a relationship? Batman fans can't let go. And by Batman, this also goes with Dick. Let Kori grow out of being just Dick's fling. She is an all powerful alien princess with greater understanding of love, emotions and kindness than anyone in Earth. Yet she keeps on moping about Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Not liking to see Kori and Babs do the rounds with Dick's family and friends, or Talia and Catwoman banging Bruce's sons isn't being insecure over fictional character relationships. This is an issue with family and friends sharing love interests in general. It wouldn't be cool for Dick to hook up Black Canary or Blackfire, or having a go with all the Batgirls.

----------


## qwazer07

It's fictional. Diana can't date Bruce or Clark now. What about Dick being passed around the DCU. Comic readers are looking at it in a male gaze and perspective. A guy can date multiple women. But once a women does it. Fanboys complain like the world is ending. People in real life date their ex's friends and even family. Why not comic books where everyone had 10+ love interest since their creation.

----------


## Godlike13

See my ex's never dated my brother, and i never hooked up with his. Does this happen sure, does it need to be a common things between them though no it doesn't. Cause its not that common and its usually done in drama to create more drama. Your trying generalize the issue into something else. From not being cool with their respective love interests dating their friends and family, to not being cool with their love interests dating anyone else.

----------


## qwazer07

Okay. Let's just end this. I don't agree with how conservative, prudish, patriarchal Americans comics are but yet still show excessive violence. You are comfortable with that and I respect you. Comic books are drama in the end of the day. It's how they sell.

----------


## Elmo

Each character should have their own love interests I mean who would argue with that ?

Aside from fan shipping does the Bat family really have this issue to begin with? Barbara Gordon doesn’t have any memorable love interests other than Dick, Selina is almost always tied to Bruce, Steph Brown with Tim Drake, etc 

The issue here is that female characters tend to be tied to one male character whereas male characters usually have a handful of love interests. 

I’m all about female characters having more love interests. Within the Bat family, eh, I think anything different from the norm would result in some awkward pairings.

----------


## John Venus

> Well, Zatanna was specifically ID'd as 18 when her father disappeared, and she joined the League about a year later IIRC, and Dick was generally stated as being in his mid to late teens during the same period. So in theory they could be as close as five years apart, which is similar to the Silver & Bronze Age gap between Dick and Babs IIRC.


You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.

EDIT: I found it:  http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content...difference.jpg
Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.

----------


## qwazer07

We also need to stop calling women names like whore or slut when they have multiple love interests. We need to be better people. Demonizing women for exploring their sexuality is the same as hating LGBT+ people. Nightwing gets this sometime from comic fans because he isn't the traditional toxic masculinity hero. Dick having a good relationship with his ex's and sometimes casual sexual relationship with women is treated as joke by others. It's annoying.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't get the issue. Babs is passed around the Bat family. Why is it Dick who has to take the blame? Not Bruce? Jason? Tim? Luke? Kori also slept with Roy. Are we also removing Kori? What about Damian and Raven? I'm pretty sure Dick and Raven had dream sex. Dick can date Zatanna.


No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators. 

The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.

----------


## qwazer07

> No one's blaming Dick or any of the characters. People always blame the creators. Fans were angry at Batman Beyond, The Killing Joke, and Arkham Knight's team when they did it to Babs. Fans were angry at the creators by the depiction of Talia in the current animated universe. No one had a problem with Luke dating Babs until they found out Dick was deliberately written as a jerk... no... wait, IGN commenters did have a problem with Babs sleeping around, but no one takes those crowd seriously, and even them blame the creators. 
> 
> The only time I saw fans blaming characters are when they already have perceived beef with that character, like some fans of Babs or Kori who sees Dick as two-timing manwhore because of fandom reputation and think the girls deserve better.


It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.

Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.

----------


## Badou

Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.

----------


## pandesal

Sleeping Dick by Marcus To.

----------


## WonderNight

> Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.


I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire. 

A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually  happened?

----------


## Godlike13

That’s fair.

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's about execution. Batman Beyond and BTAS were wanking material for certain someone. Arkham Knight suck because Tim was unrecognizable, their relationship had no build up and it felt flat. I actually liked Luke because he was supportive of Babs. Jason and Babs were also cute even if nothing happened.
> 
> Zatanna can work if it's executed properly. Make them friends first. They have great chemistry. Dick is also everything Zee wants with Bruce without the bad ones. She could introduce magic in the Nightwing book. Etc. Execution people.


If Zatanaa was a friend if Bruce growing up then she cannot be a love intrest of dick and that’s it

----------


## redmax99

> Luke was a completely forgettable character in my opinion, but he is also different from Jason or Bruce in that Luke had no real relationship with anyone in the Batman family. He was a completely blank slate. He wasn't Dick's friend or close ally. The two had never even spoken to each other before. It wasn't the same as Bruce dating Babs in BTAS, having Jason hook up with Babs in the current comics, or having a Roy hook up with Starfire. Where the relationship crosses a line where it feels like betraying a friend or family member. Maybe you like stories like that, but the majority of fans don't. All they do is end up pissing off fans and stories where their goal is to upset fans don't tend to be good. There are plenty of characters out there to date where you don't need to write stories where they are constantly stepping on each others toes all time.


kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.

----------


## Restingvoice

9c1b5234e9663b602d45f63f51c6b38e._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

Batman drinks ginseng
No that's not surprising. He knows all types of medicinal drinks.
I'm just surprised coz it's what my dad drink
Me I don't like the taste

Batman Gotham Nights #5
A mob lawyer who turned out to not be an official lawyer and thus not bound by attorney-client secrecy and can testify in court against them. Gordon thinks there are moles in the GCPD (of course) and ask Batman's help since they can't really trust anyone. 
The mob brings Harley
Batman brings Nightwing

----------


## John Venus

My only issue would be, besides having to fiddle around with the already wonky age/timelines of characters, is that Zatanna would once again be back to square one once the creative team decides Nightwing needs a new love interest or supporting cast or Bludhaven needs to be blown up again. At least with Bruce/Zee relationship, it feels more like a backstory thing; 'they trained together and some sparks flew'. Zee currently has to split screen with the JLD members and its kind of annoying when most JLD writers treat her as Constantine's arm candy. I would much rather see the character in a solo setting with her own city, supporting cast and rogues gallery.

----------


## Badou

> I get fans not liking family and friends dating each others main love interest I agree, but has zatanna and Bruce ever been a thing? I know they're close friends but have they actually been a couple? Dick dating zatanna is more like jason dating donna instead of Jason dating starfire. 
> 
> A close friend and close family member dating is not a betrayal or problem. Like would Clark view dick dating an adult kara a betrayal or problem? Was bruce and zatanna ever anything more than a possibility that never actually  happened?


I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics. 

And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.

Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.  




> kori was happy with roy. i know they're friends but at the end of the day it wasn't a hook up to get back at dick or with dick.


That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.

Now I'm not a big fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So I'm not saying any of this because I felt offended that Starfire was with someone else other than Dick. I just thought how Lobdell wrote their relationship was bad, especially early on where it even felt a little gross. Maybe if Lobdell had taken his time to set up their relationship more instead of having them hop into bed in such a questionable way one issue in it wouldn't have been received so poorly, but who knows. All that was 9 years ago at this point.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. If anything why not has Bludhaven be a season thing? Like Haley's circus is generally on the Road but will come to Bludhaven in the summer. That way if we do have Dick work at Haley's Circus he can be both.

----------


## WonderNight

> I don't believe they have ever dated, and it is just implied that Zatanna has strong feelings for Bruce where they now have some background together when they were younger based off the BTAS. I believe that Paul Dini is the one that wrote in the idea of the two having some romantic chemistry and I remember him really not like hearing that Zatanna was changed to be with Dick in the YJ show. I enjoyed Dick and Zatanna's romance in the YJ show, but I can't ever seeing that working in the DCU. Since Zatanna is a contemporary of Bruce's and any writer that could write a story with her and Dick would rather just use Bruce since their bond is already established and Batman is the biggest character in comics. 
> 
> And it isn't about it just being a close friend and family member. It is a bit more complicated and situational. Clark doesn't have romantic feelings for Kara, so I don't know if that works. I don't think Clark would like Bruce dating Lois, Bruce wouldn't like Dick dating Selina, and Tim wouldn't like Dick dating Stephanie. Romances that are cross generations or with very close friends/family members dating their exs is where it gets questionable. You wouldn't want your best friend or brother dating your ex-wife. It is situations similar to that where people feel weird about it. Those are the kind of romances that are designed to be gross/uncomfortable from the start. The X-Men are littered with romances like that. Like Alex Summers hooking up with Scott's ex-wife, Madelyne Pryor, comes to mind.
> 
> Here is a good example. I'm not really a fan of Dick and Starfire's relationship. So lets say they wanted to give Starfire a new love interest with an established character. Bruce, Jason or Tim feel weird because of their close nearly familial relationship to Dick. It is the same reason why them with Babs always feels gross. Wally would be a bit weird too because he is supposed to be Dick's best friend, so he shouldn't cross that line either. Then you have Cyborg, who I think would be a great option for Starfire. He is friends with Dick but they aren't super close, and he also has an independent friendship with Starfire and they are old teammates. So it is a situation where a friend dating a friend's ex doesn't feel wrong, imo.  
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't exactly true. In Lobdell's mind they both had some sort of falling out with Dick when he started the New 52 series. He didn't think they should be on good terms with him, since maybe he wanted to prop up Jason as Dick's replacement, but Lobdell is quoted in interviews saying something along the lines of how it doesn't make sense to him to be close or friends with your ex. So he set up undertones that their hook up was in part due to their poor relationship with Dick. Then because Lobdell's take on Starfire was so universally panned he scrapped whatever plans he had and then wrote Roy and Starfire as some couple super in love, which wasn't that great either in my opinion.
> ...


I get what you're say but bruce a wife/ex wife. Only a close friend that he has love for. It's a lot more dick and donna than dick and starfire.

----------


## Digifiend

> You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.
> 
> EDIT: I found it:  http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content...difference.jpg
> Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.


Yeah, Dick only turned 20 during New Teen Titans in the 80s. He started that series aged 19. Dick and Babs only became the same age in New 52, when both were deaged to 21.

----------


## Shamrock Holmes

> You sure Dick was 20-25 in the 1967? I recall in the Batman Family titles in the 70's had him pegged as 18 years old.
> 
> EDIT: I found it:  http://www.orgamesmic.com/wp-content...difference.jpg
> Barbara is explicitly 25 while Dick is still pegged as a teenager in 1976.


On the contrary, I stated that both may have been in their _late teens_. Which isn't specifically contradicted by your source either. 

That said, my usual go to source contradicts this, and pegs her as about four years younger than Bruce and about 13 years older than Dick pre-_Flashpoint_ (however, this timeline is not always authoritive, as they list Barbara as 16 when she enters college (true) _and_ becomes Batgirl (incorrect based on the _stated reference_, which pegs her debut as _after_ graduation (so at least 20), which would fit with the reference you provided above.)

----------


## Pohzee

Pre-Flashpoint as in Post-Crisis? Because those ages were a bit wonky. Pre-Crisis, Barbara would have to be 25 to be a Congresswoman, while Dick was still stated to be around 18 or 19.

----------


## Restingvoice

Bronze age Bruce is 28 (To Kill a Legend) Babs is 25 (Batman family issues as congresswoman with Dick sometimes visiting to help with his girlfriend Lori, both still attending Hudson) and Dick is 18 (Left for Hudson before those two stories). 
Those are the confirmed ones and when. I don't know how long time passes between those three stories but I'm not gonna spend time thinking that far.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, Dick only turned 20 during New Teen Titans in the 80s. He started that series aged 19. Dick and Babs only became the same age in New 52, when both were deaged to 21.


Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13?  Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older

----------


## Elmo

In my headcanon Dick is around 12 when he first becomes Robin and 17 or 18 when he first becomes Nightwing, and many events that take place during Dixon’s run in particular give me the impression that Dick is either very mature for his age or at least into his 20s. So I’d say he’s around 24-25 now with Barbara a year older and  Jason is a little bit younger. Tim is in his late teens. Bruce is in his early 40s. This is all how I make sense of it but everyone has their own way.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13?  Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older


Jason is presumed 19 but I don't remember if it's mentioned anywhere. Tim's 16. Damian's 10. 

To quote Jason when he wants to take Tim to a bar "It's Gotham, Tim, I can find you a place"

Damian jumped to 13 at the start of Rebirth.

----------


## Ascended

> Dicks 21? So what is Jason 19? And then Tim is 17 and Damian 13?  Jason hangs out in bars so often I assumed he was older


Well, at this point who knows? Rebirth continuity hasn't actually touched on ages, for the most part. But in the New52 yeah, Dick was 21 or 22 or so. Tim was 16. Damian turned 13. Beyond that I don't know if anyone had their age established.

Tim was said to be 16 in Rebirth's 'Tec run as well. 

I think at this point it's best to just forget ages; it didn't make sense in New52 continuity and it makes less sense in the current continuity, which is still half N52 and half "post-Crisis' second cousin."

In my head, Dick is in his late 20's (26-28), Babs in her early-ish 30's (33-35), Jason in his mid 20's (23-25), Tim his very early 20's (21-22), and Damian's 13, with Bruce being in his early-mid 40's (41-44).

----------


## cc008

> In my head, Dick is in his late 20's (26-28), Babs in her early-ish 30's (33-35), Jason in his mid 20's (23-25), Tim his very early 20's (21-22), and Damian's 13, with Bruce being in his early-mid 40's (41-44).


That's about where I'm at too. My head canon doesn't have Jason much younger than Dick at all.. 2 years maybe.. both of them on the older end of these ranges.

----------


## Restingvoice

In my head, I like to use canon as much as I can so the baseline guideline are these

Bruce and Dick, however old they were when each of their parents died it has to be the same for pretty parallel reasons. So if Bruce was 8, Dick was 8, Bruce 10 Dick 10 Bruce 12 Dick 12. 

Dick moved to Hudson at 18, but when exactly he becomes Nightwing is debatable

Damian was 10 when he met the Bat-family, after that whatever. 

Everything else is flexible. I'm gonna have to actually read everything first in order to fit everything.

----------


## Fergus

This is off topic and late ......

IGN's Top 25 Heroes of DC Comics for 2019
Nightwing is in at no 5

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-top...s-of-dc-comics

----------


## bearman

Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone.  He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.

----------


## Elmo

> Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone.  He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.


Yep I completely agree. Dick is not a copy of Batman but something more, and he carries the greatest aspects of Batman with him. 

I get emotional when I think about it but he is really one of the greatest comic book characters ever. Robin was part of the foundation for sidekick archetypes and not only that he’s a sidekick who became his own hero. It is incredible to me that he exists. He’s also a character that can fit with any tone and be in large or small scale stories and never seem out of place (unless a writer doesn’t know what to do with him) . It’s about time he became more of a front and center character. I tend to view the DC universe through his eyes, and out of everyone he would be the absolute coolest character to ever hang out with.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, whenever Dick is truly back, and himself, I still believe the ticket to the Adult Table for him is Justice League membership. It’s ludicrous he’s not been there for years...and he led a sanctioned replacement League. Bruce could step away a bit, and still be in 47 other monthly comics. Nightwing is NOT Batman light... he’s more like Batman perfected...those rough edges gone.  He has Clark’s compassion and heart, and Bruce’s skill set. This could be his time.


Well one of the ways nightwing can stop being viewed as batman lite would be something like Nightwing leader or agent of spyral or checkmate. Nightwing in bludhaven is just batman lite im sorry.

----------


## Godlike13

Bludhaven, as it is, is the same as the JL would be. Nightwing emulating the Batman and the Batman formula. Bludhaven is just spectacularly less impressive then the JL. JL at least comes with bragging rights, but beyond that I don’t see it doing much for Dick.

----------


## Ascended

> In my head, I like to use canon as much as I can


I do too, but at this point it's kind of impossible to say, outside of a few exceptions like Tim and Damian. We're still technically in New52 continuity but only partially and....who the hell knows?

----------


## WonderNight

> Bludhaven, as it is, is the same as the JL would be. Nightwing emulating the Batman and the Batman formula. Bludhaven is just spectacularly less impressive then the JL. JL at least comes with bragging rights, but beyond that I dont see it doing much for Dick.


 I've come to accept how DC views nightwing (don't care for it but accept it) so if DC wants nightwing to be a city street level hero as his status quo than all I ask is that they return bludhaven back to Vegas haven and for dick to open and run halys circus again. 

Both Bludhaven and Halys circus are the only things dick has that's uniquely his that actually sticks around in his mythos. So put a Vegas bludhaven and Halys circus together and build from there.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I've come to accept how DC views nightwing (don't care for it but accept it) so if DC wants nightwing to be a city street level hero as his status quo than all I ask is that they return bludhaven back to Vegas haven and for dick to open and run halys circus again. 
> 
> Both Bludhaven and Halys circus are the only things dick has that's uniquely his that actually sticks around in his mythos. So put a Vegas bludhaven and Halys circus together and build from there.



I agree both can work. In a weird way. I do think Nightwing can protect the city and travel. I mean with the entertainment side people might not want crimes to always happen in Bludhaven. Leading things to be taken to other places.

----------


## Godlike13

The whole protecting a city formula is formula made famous with characters like Batman. So while Bludhaven is "his" it serves to facilitate the Batman formula. What more thanks to the lazy out of touch creators they tapped to take the book over, it has reverted to the the pre-Seeley mini Gotham. So its his, but its his mini Gotham.

----------


## Badou

> Bludhaven, as it is, is the same as the JL would be. Nightwing emulating the Batman and the Batman formula. Bludhaven is just spectacularly less impressive then the JL. JL at least comes with bragging rights, but beyond that I dont see it doing much for Dick.


Wouldn't the Titans be the Bludhaven equivalent? A Justice League-lite team like how Bludhaven is Gotham-lite. Dick being part of the JL would be like him operating in Gotham. It will never be "his" city (which I think is an outdated concept anyway), but he will have substantially more resources to draw from for stories even if he is in a box with a lot of other competing heroes. I'd prefer the Gotham scenario as I want a place with more  utility as opposed to a Bludhaven that is a wasteland of nothing regardless of how writers try to dress it up.

----------


## Godlike13

Titans done wrong, done right Titans pivots away from Jr JL. As Nightwing should pivot from Jr Batman. As out of favor as it might be Titans still has more upside for Dick then JL would. Nightwing is in a weird position where being in the JL isn't going to bring with it a solo he doesn't already have. At best he'll get to stand around in events maybe, but even that is something he already does. And it would have no benefit outside of comics. Where they are telling the stories isn't really what matters but how they are telling the stories. The current creators on Ric pulled every Gotham resource they could. Whether borrowing toy's from Batman's toy box, or playing in Batman's toy box. Both equate to the same thing. As long as they have Nightwing try to emulate the same formulas he's going to come off as Batman-lite.

----------


## WonderNight

So then what direction can nightwing take? It sounds like damned if you do damned if you don't. What to do with nightwing.

If nightwing is in bludhaven he's batman lite but put him in Gotham you than defeat the very point of nightwing in the first place, got make him robin again at that point.

The titans have always been the kids in town. But fans seem to not want nightwing on a new team. At this point DC should have just left him with spyral, send him to another franchise or just retire him because the same old same old ain't working and most fans don't like new and different.

----------


## Godlike13

Directions that’s change the kinds of stories they tell and how they tell them. Part of what made Grayson so refreshing was not just what they had him doing, but how they went about doing it. It was a different formate with a unique creators situation. Instead of 4-6 issue drawn out arcs we were getting single issue stories telling an overarching story. It would switch off between King and Seeley so no issues would read the same as the one before, but they were still in sync with one another so they never felt out a place either. 
They need to change how they go about Nightwing comics. They can shoot him in the head, and strip away every thing that made him likable, but as long as they bring in these lazy creators that just mindlessly abuse the same old formulas nothing actually seems genuinely different or new. Nightwing will just continue to come off as a lesser imitation of characters that popularized those formulas, and who are far better supported. They tried to change everything about Dick, except for how they went about things. So the whole idea immediately just fell flat on its face. Cause underneath it all was just effortless crap being told in the same and usual ways. He might have been different but what he was doing and how he was doing it was just more of the same. Completely formulaic and Batman dependent.

----------


## Mr. White

> Directions that’s change the kinds of stories they tell and how they tell them. Part of what made Grayson so refreshing was not just what they had him doing, but how they went about doing it. It was a different formate with a unique creators situation. Instead of 4-6 issue drawn out arcs we were getting single issue stories telling an overarching story. It would switch off between King and Seeley so no issues would read the same as the one before, but they were still in sync with one another so they never felt out a place either. 
> They need to change how they go about Nightwing comics. They can shoot him in the head, and strip away every thing that made him likable, but as long as they bring in these lazy creators that just mindlessly abuse the same old formulas nothing actually seems genuinely different or new. Nightwing will just continue to come off as a lesser imitation of characters that popularized those formulas, and who are far better supported. *They tried to change everything about Dick, except for how they went about things. So the whole idea immediately just fell flat on its face. Cause underneath it all was just effortless crap being told in the same and usual ways. He might have been different but what he was doing and how he was doing it was just more of the same. Completely formulaic and Batman dependent*.


A very well thought out post and one I agree with. 

Said it a fair few times that Grayson and generally keeping Dick far from Batman (and by extension the Batfamily/ Gotham/ Bludhaven/ etcetera) was/is the best way to go and this post supports the why.

On a side note, not generally a fan of teams but Nightwing's Outsiders (Winick) worked well (which followed the concept of "Bat distancing" for a while. 

Of course in typical DC fashion, Batman came and pissed on that bonfire.

----------


## Digifiend

> Well, at this point who knows? Rebirth continuity hasn't actually touched on ages, for the most part. But in the New52 yeah, Dick was 21 or 22 or so. Tim was 16. Damian turned 13. Beyond that I don't know if anyone had their age established.
> 
> Tim was said to be 16 in Rebirth's 'Tec run as well. 
> 
> I think at this point it's best to just forget ages; it didn't make sense in New52 continuity and it makes less sense in the current continuity, which is still half N52 and half "post-Crisis' second cousin."
> 
> In my head, Dick is in his late 20's (26-28), Babs in her early-ish 30's (33-35), Jason in his mid 20's (23-25), Tim his very early 20's (21-22), and Damian's 13, with Bruce being in his early-mid 40's (41-44).


There's been some aging up going on. In Robin 80th Anniversary, Tim age in Detective Comics Rebirth was retconned. He told Dick he wasn't 20 yet. He'd have said 18 if he was 16, surely? Sounds like he's now 18 or 19. Which also matches an upcoming Young Justice solicitation which mentions Tim, Conner and Bart growing up into adulthood.

Dick and Babs have both also aged up. After Dick was shot, he said he lost nearly two decades of memories... and he remembers up to his parents' deaths. That would make him late 20s at least. Babs is still the same age as him, so presumably she also aged up when she got rid of the Burnside costume.

----------


## Aahz

> That's about where I'm at too. My head canon doesn't have Jason much younger than Dick at all.. 2 years maybe.. both of them on the older end of these ranges.


By pre Flashpoint comics Dick should actually be roughly 7 years older than Jason, and Jason should not be much older than Tim (and Younger than Cassandra Cain).

----------


## Ascended

> There's been some aging up going on.


Oh good. Glad they started adjusting that.

----------


## Aahz

Big Question is just if the there is some coordination by the editorial behind this, or if that's the writers using the ages they feel are right.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay, so Dick is part of the JL? This is one thing that I often wondered since they generally have him be more in TT.  So if we go with Haley Circus do we want him to be the owner of it?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Big Question is just if there is some coordination by the editorial behind this, or if that's the writers using the ages they feel are right.


There is coordination though the age themselves can change and some people may be given the wrong information. 

When New 52 first started, Greg Capullo was told by the editorial that Dick was 19. That's why he drew him so short in that one panel in the first issue of The Court of Owls. They updated him with the very next issue. 

No problem in Higgins-Barrows issue though, they drew and wrote him as in the early twenties. 

Once they established he's 21 it's all the same across the board. Same with Superman and Wonder Woman, who were officially 25 and 23 in New 52. Even if some writers may write them older or more mature for their age and some writers write them like freshly graduated college students, the official age was the same.

----------


## Aahz

Don't know I have somehow the feeling that since Rebirth (or maybe even since DCYou) there is less control by the editorial and the continuity is even less clear than during the New52.

At the moment as long as I don't see an age really consistently referenced, I see just as something the writer made up.

----------


## Badou

> Titans done wrong, done right Titans pivots away from Jr JL. As Nightwing should pivot from Jr Batman. As out of favor as it might be Titans still has more upside for Dick then JL would. Nightwing is in a weird position where being in the JL isn't going to bring with it a solo he doesn't already have. At best he'll get to stand around in events maybe, but even that is something he already does. And it would have no benefit outside of comics. Where they are telling the stories isn't really what matters but how they are telling the stories. The current creators on Ric pulled every Gotham resource they could. Whether borrowing toy's from Batman's toy box, or playing in Batman's toy box. Both equate to the same thing. As long as they have Nightwing try to emulate the same formulas he's going to come off as Batman-lite.


What upside do the Titans have? When was the last good Nightwing Titans story? The only thing the Titans can offer up is being a team Dick can lead. If that is important to you then that is the team you will be stuck with. The same way Bludhaven offers up the chance for Dick to have his own city, but just like being stuck in Bludhaven him being in the Titans offers him far less actual functional opportunity for stories than the JL would even if he is in a lesser role in the JL. We have more than enough comic evidence to prove that out at this point. The Titans are never going to come close to recapturing their NTT era success and are a minor league team to the JL's major league one at this point. Two seasons of a live action Titans TV has lead to fuck all in the comics, so I don't care about how the comics effect other media at this point either. Dick going to the JL will have zero impact on how he is used in other media anyway, or really even effect his solo comic probably. 

It all comes down to what you want for the character. I don't care about Dick leading a team anymore. What I want is Dick to have some kind of proper role in the DCU. Where he is actually involved in big stories where his character feels important. You have so many big stories going on constantly and Dick is completely uninvolved or just used as fodder in them. That will never change unless the character is put in a better position to be properly involved and from what I can see that is the JL. Since that is where a lot of these stories spawn from or revolve around. I'm at the point where I don't even care about him leading these big DCU stories, but him being involved in the B or C plots of them would be a step up from where he is.

As for the Bludhaven pulling characters from Gotham thing, I think that is a separate issue. That is more to do with Bludhaven being devoid of anything people actually care about and being unable to create or contain interesting elements itself independently because of how dull it is. So they have to drag villains from Gotham to try and elevate the Bludhaven stories more.

----------


## Godlike13

For better or worse Titans is a franchise Dick can actually be prevalent in, in way he could never be with the JL. What functional opportunity do you think we would really see with the JL? More merchandising, or TV shows and movies appearances? B or C plots in event comics are worth far less then these kind of opportunities mind you. So do you really think being on the JL for a run, cause that is all it would ever be, is really going to create more opportunities or give him a role then being the face of the Titans will. Dick is already involved in B or C plots in events, like IC, FE, Metal. Not being part of the JL isn't why he isn’t given even more plots in events. Aquaman has been in the JL for forever and I can could count on one hand how many he’s actually been relevant in. Being in the JL isn’t even that big of a deal. Especially outside of the 7. 

And you still act like Bludhaven creates its own comics. As if it is responsible for the likes Lobdell or Jurgan’s being lazy creators. Filling up Bludhaven with interesting reusable elements is a process that takes more commitment and understanding then the creators they handed the book off too we’re willing to invest. You honestly think Lobdell tapped Scarecrow and Joker's Daughter because Bludhaven, or they had Jurgan's go to the Court well for like the 5th time cause there just isn't anything else more interesting. No, its just the same people trying to force the same shit over and over because its easier and safer to repeat and reuse what they are used to then put in the creative effort to actually develop something original or interesting. Its not Bludhaven's job to create, and its not a separate issue. At its core it comes down to editors and creators thinking let’s just have him emulate the same things Batman does, and lets just use proven Bat things. That’s quick and easy. Oh that didn't work, well lets do it again with other Bat thing. Abusing those same formulas they have been conditioned too, to make it easier for them to produce quick and cheap Nightwing content off the factory line. Not caring if any one actually cares about what they they are doing, but more that so and so had something to do. Putting him on the JL just further feeds into the idea of hey let’s just have home copy after Batman. And whether he is Gotham or Bludhaven, as long as that is the managing mentality it will result in the same shit. At this point Gotham vs Bludhaven is like arguing for Night of Owl and Death of the Family vs Year of the Villain and Joker War.

----------


## Ascended

> Okay, so Dick is part of the JL? This is one thing that I often wondered since they generally have him be more in TT.  So if we go with Haley Circus do we want him to be the owner of it?


I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway. 

But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.

And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent. 

It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway. 
> 
> But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.
> 
> And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent. 
> 
> It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.


Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run

----------


## dropkickjake

> Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run


While What Ascended is talking about is a bit different than Higgins, Higgins DID have some good ideas that were poorly executed and interfered with so much they couldn’t succeed. Amusement Mike, for example, could have been great. Owning Haly’s could have been great. Trashing it all for Death in the Family... gosh the wasted potential there...

----------


## Badou

> For better or worse Titans is a franchise Dick can actually be prevalent in, in way he could never be with the JL. What functional opportunity do you think we would really see with the JL? More merchandising, or TV shows and movies appearances? B or C plots in event comics are worth far less then these kind of opportunities mind you. So do you really think being on the JL for a run, cause that is all it would ever be, is really going to create more opportunities or give him a role then being the face of the Titans will. Dick is already involved in B or C plots in events, like IC, FE, Metal. Not being part of the JL isn't why he isnt given even more plots in events. Aquaman has been in the JL for forever and I can could count on one hand how many hes actually been relevant in. Being in the JL isnt even that big of a deal. Especially outside of the 7.


I don't care about other media or merch opportunities. I simply want the character in a position to be involved in bigger and more relevant stories in the comics and I don't see the Titans as a path to that. The Justice League and their stories are the driving force behind the DCU and if you want to be involved in that you have to have more of a connection to those titles. It is that simple. It also isn't just event comics, but being involved in normal stories that feel like they have more weight to them. The Titans will never be that. Just look at what Starfire and Cyborg are doing in Justice League Odyssey with being able to interact with characters like Darkseid. Even that is beyond what the Titans book is capable of doing and that is a secondary or tertiary JL title. It is ridiculous how much the JL franchise dwarfs the Titans franchise in that regard. Plus the Titans franchise is always going to be split in half with the teens and characters like Robin taking a large amount of the focus. It just isn't this great opportunity for Nightwing. He will continue to be uninvolved in bigger stories, or will just be used as fodder to push Batman. That is what he is limited to now unless you reposition him in the DCU to get more opportunities and the best place for those opportunities is the JL franchise, imo. 




> And you still act like Bludhaven creates its own comics. As if it is responsible for the likes Lobdell or Jurgans being lazy creators. Filling up Bludhaven with interesting reusable elements is a process that takes more commitment and understanding then the creators they handed the book off too were willing to invest. You honestly think Lobdell tapped Scarecrow and Joker's Daughter because Bludhaven, or they had Jurgan's go to the Court well for like the 5th time cause there just isn't anything else more interesting. No, its just the same people trying to force the same shit over and over because its easier and safer to repeat and reuse what they are used to then put in the creative effort to actually develop something original or interesting. Its not Bludhaven's job to create, and its not a separate issue. At its core it comes down to editors and creators thinking lets just have him emulate the same things Batman does, and lets just use proven Bat things. Thats quick and easy. Oh that didn't work, well lets do it again with other Bat thing. Abusing those same formulas they have been conditioned too, to make it easier for them to produce quick and cheap Nightwing content off the factory line. Not caring if any one actually cares about what they they are doing, but more that so and so had something to do. Putting him on the JL just further feeds into the idea of hey lets just have home copy after Batman. And whether he is Gotham or Bludhaven, as long as that is the managing mentality it will result in the same shit. At this point Gotham vs Bludhaven is like arguing for Night of Owl and Death of the Family vs Year of the Villain and Joker War.


I think it is Bludhaven's job to help create. It is supposed to serve as a setting for inspiration. A place that creators want to create for and play around in, but it isn't interesting enough to be that. So they have to pull characters from actually interesting places to make up for it. So of course the creators are lazy too, but I don't think Bludhaven is innocent. It's been nearly 25 years since it was created and I think we know what it is at this point and it will never be this place that creators actually care about, but I've complained more than enough about Bludhaven at this point in these threads.

----------


## Claude

I see there's some suggestion in this thread - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-DC-Universe - that Mark "I have begged, begged to be given Nightwing" Waid might have a DC project in the works.

(Not suggesting it's hugely likely - but it's a nice thought in trying times.)

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I see there's some suggestion in this thread - https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-DC-Universe - that Mark "I have begged, begged to be given Nightwing" Waid might have a DC project in the works.
> 
> (Not suggesting it's hugely likely - but it's a nice thought in trying times.)


I was just gonna post this.

It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.

----------


## Claude

> I was just gonna post this.
> 
> It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.


A world with Waid and Snyder working on Grayson projects at the same time would almost be worth waiting out Ric for.

----------


## Ascended

> Sounds like the Kyle Higgins run


Kinda-sorta. But the point is that Haly's has the flexibility to be whatever the writer wants it to be. Higgins did what he did with it, but a Nightwing cartoon made for kids could make Haly's a bright and fun place full of cool sights and wonder. A more serious story could dive into the rough and tumble life these people lead where they aren't welcome or fit in anywhere outside their own little community. 

That's the real strength of Haly's as a concept; it can fit any kind of narrative structure for any audience.

----------


## cc008

> I was just gonna post this.
> 
> It'd be great for Waid to get Nightwing.


Considering Waid wrote a wonderful Daredevil run...yeah I would be all for him writing Nightwing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I think "officially" Dick's on the reserve list. Or the "break in case of emergency" kit, anyway. 
> 
> But practically every adult hero is on one of those lists and Dick has only been called in two, maybe three times ever, so it doesn't mean much.
> 
> And yes, I'd say Dick should own Haly's. Not just work there, own it. You want him to have a source of revenue? He's got one. You want him building his own foundation as a solo character? Haly's is about the only thing his IP truly owns. You want him to keep at least one foot in his Bat roots? This goes back to his Robin origin story. You want him to have a job he's naturally qualified for, that is entertaining and true to his character? This is literally the only job he's ever had other than "hero" that he was able to hold down for more than five minutes, and it's a circus/entertainment venue/casino/whatever update you wanna spin. Want him to have a job that doesn't interfere with his heroics? Dick owns the place, but someone else runs the day-to-day. You want him traveling a lot? Haly's goes on tours. You want him stationary? Haly's is set in one spot (Gotham or Bludhaven or Jump City or anywhere). Want him travel but have a home to go back to? Haly's does the occasional tour only, and Dick travels a lot searching for talent. 
> 
> It can be bright and fun for kid stories or have a seedy, dark underbelly for the more HBO minded. It can be left alone and ignored sort of like Wayne Enterprises often is, or it can be the focus of plots. It provides its own supporting cast, opportunity for guest stars from all corners of the DCU, it can be played as a street level affair with "standard" entertainments, or it can be more fantastical, with super human performers. Any story you can fit Dick into, you can fit Haly's.


This makes me wonder who should be in the supporting cast? Is there any important cast from Dick's past that can work?

----------


## K7P5V

> Considering Waid wrote a wonderful Daredevil run...yeah I would be all for him writing Nightwing.


Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee  :Cool:

----------


## cc008

> Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee


Yes!!! That's exactly what I was thinking.

----------


## qwazer07

> Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee


That art is so beautiful <3 It looks like a more realistic Darwyn Cooke. Chris Samnee is very talented.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Agreed. What a wonderful time for a reunion between Waid & Samnee


Oh my gosh that makes me tear up a little...man I miss that guy!  Waid on Nightwing would be a dream come true, I think I would even take Liefeld on art nonotreally lol...but Samnee with Waid.....swoon!

----------


## Ascended

Waid and Samnee would be pretty fantastic. I feel like they could give us a really great Nightwing run that also cleanses the palate, so to speak. Something classic without being boring or out-dated or dragged down.

----------


## 9th.

Anybody know where this is from? It's hilarious

----------


## Restingvoice

> Anybody know where this is from? It's hilarious


New 52 Secret Origins #1

----------


## qwazer07

It's nice to have dreams. We will most likely get disappointed the upcoming months but at least we had a little hope.

----------


## 9th.

> New 52 Secret Origins #1


Thank you so much

----------


## Digifiend

Just bear in mind, it's no longer canon due to New Teen Titans (where he originally became Nightwing) being returned to continuity.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s a Robin prototype. So it’s not necessarily invalidated from being canon.

----------


## Digifiend

With the chest design and colour scheme, I assumed that was a Nightwing suit!

----------


## AmiMizuno

For all of you what's the worst Nightwing costume? I mean if Zatanna and Dick were a couple. Maybe Zatanna and Dick meet at Haley's Cirus?

----------


## Godlike13

There is no worst costume they are all wonderfully awful except for the black and blue. That’s what makes them great lol.

----------


## 9th.

I used to hate the disco fit but it grew on me, it has it's own charm.

----------


## 9th.

> Just bear in mind, it's no longer canon due to New Teen Titans (where he originally became Nightwing) being returned to continuity.


Thanks for the heads up but i'm no longer concerned about whats canon now when it comes to DC, I get less headaches that way.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious to do you guys think that Dick will ever get his own movie? Also, do you think the animation movies will stop hating on Dick? I mean in terms of fighting skills how Good is Dick? Is he up there with Taila or Bruce?

----------


## cc008

> I'm curious to do you guys think that Dick will ever get his own movie? Also, do you think the animation movies will stop hating on Dick? I mean in terms of fighting skills how Good is Dick? Is he up there with Taila or Bruce?


Fingers crossed that since the "New 52" run of animated movies is over, Dick will have better showings moving forward. Unless the whole Ric thing happens. Then we're f*cked. I don't think a Nightwing film is out of the realm of possibility either, but I could totally see him doing well in a DaredevilNetflix type show too.

----------


## dietrich

> Anybody know where this is from? It's hilarious


God! I love Dick Grayson. Just look at this for a crime fighting costume. I don't think when coming up with this Dick even considered the fighting part. He was just thinking flair and the costume part. Lol

Bruce's reaction is hilarious.

I don't recall the flying Graysons ever having so many tassles.
And that cloth/scarf tied around his waist. It's awful. I love it.

----------


## WonderNight

> I'm curious to do you guys think that Dick will ever get his own movie? Also, do you think the animation movies will stop hating on Dick? I mean in terms of fighting skills how Good is Dick? Is he up there with Taila or Bruce?


Do I believe nightwing will ever get his own solo movie! No, or at least not anytime soon. Mainly for two reasons. 1. A nightwing movie would be to similar to batman in Gotham and 2. Almost all of nightwing's " things" like love interest comes from or belong to batman. So WB will just go with a batman movie with nightwing maybe as a supporting character like the in the animated movies.

----------


## WonderNight

> For all of you what's the worst Nightwing costume? I mean if Zatanna and Dick were a couple. Maybe Zatanna and Dick meet at Haley's Cirus?


Dick and zatanna starting a family business!  :Embarrassment:  so much potential so beautiful :Embarrassment:

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm curious to do you guys think that Dick will ever get his own movie? Also, do you think the animation movies will stop hating on Dick? I mean in terms of fighting skills how Good is Dick? Is he up there with Taila or Bruce?


Definitely better than Talia. Talia's skill is in the middle to low range for the Bat-family.
Tom King considers him better than Bruce by a combination of being an acrobat prodigy and a lifetime of training from Batman. Logically I do think he should be better than Bruce for that reason and the fact that he's in his prime while Bruce is getting older (there's a comic panel where Bruce says he's not as fast as he first started in his 20s but I forget which and Dick is one of the faster Bat-family member).

He's in a Top Ten Best DCU Fighter in a youtube video whose name I forget but provides a reasonable reason for every inclusion. The list includes Bruce, Cassandra, Shiva, Richard Dragon, Karate Kid, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, among others,  and he's on the lower range.

----------


## qwazer07

> I'm curious to do you guys think that Dick will ever get his own movie? Also, do you think the animation movies will stop hating on Dick? I mean in terms of fighting skills how Good is Dick? Is he up there with Taila or Bruce?


There was a Nightwing movie plan before the DCEU failed. There was also a Nightwing animated series pitch that was replaced by Young Justice. Titans also had to fight to include Dick Grayson because WB was doing their embargo like Batman. So we can conclude WB has plans for Nightwing. He is also insanely popular. There was a Twitter poll of favorite DC character and Nightwing was 1st place. He beat the Trinity, notably Batman. Which is crazy if you imagine Dick has no solo movie or series. He is also consistently top 3 DC favorite character here in CBR. Only below Bat and Supes. So comic nerds like him even if his comics are *ahem* not that good. I think there's potential in the character DC has rarely explored.

Talia is not near Dick's fighting skills honestly. Dick along with Batman and Cass are the three best fighters in the Bat family. He is the most skilled and well rounded Robin as proven multiple times. Arguably in the top 5 best DC fighters but certainly in the top 10. Will the animated movies show this and stop nerfing him? I don't think so as long he is a supporting character in a Batman movie. If Nightwing is the one beating the villain, it isn't really a Batman movie.

Fun fact: Nightwing is a great seducer and in canon a great lover. His seduction skills go beyond the pages of comic books. He has a large female and gay following. I read somewhere writing Nightwing was chick magnet due to his fans.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There was a Nightwing movie plan before the DCEU failed. There was also a Nightwing animated series pitch that was replaced by Young Justice. Titans also had to fight to include Dick Grayson because WB was doing their embargo like Batman. So we can conclude WB has plans for Nightwing. He is also insanely popular. There was a Twitter poll of favorite DC character and Nightwing was 1st place. He beat the Trinity, notably Batman. Which is crazy if you imagine Dick has no solo movie or series. He is also consistently top 3 DC favorite character here in CBR. Only below Bat and Supes. So comic nerds like him even if his comics are *ahem* not that good. I think there's potential in the character DC has rarely explored.
> 
> Talia is not near Dick's fighting skills honestly. Dick along with Batman and Cass are the three best fighters in the Bat family. He is the most skilled and well rounded Robin as proven multiple times. Arguably in the top 5 best DC fighters but certainly in the top 10. Will the animated movies show this and stop nerfing him? I don't think so as long he is a supporting character in a Batman movie. If Nightwing is the one beating the villain, it isn't really a Batman movie.
> 
> Fun fact: Nightwing is a great seducer and in canon a great lover. His seduction skills go beyond the pages of comic books. He has a large female and gay following. I read somewhere writing Nightwing was chick magnet due to his fans.


I feel like the last ten years has done all it can to destroy the rep he had as a martial artist by consistently making him Batman’s dragon, before you get to Bruce you have to go through him and thus from deathstroke to Harley Quinn has been knocking him out

----------


## qwazer07

> I feel like the last ten years has done all it can to destroy the rep he had as a martial artist by consistently making him Batman’s dragon, before you get to Bruce you have to go through him and thus from deathstroke to Harley Quinn has been knocking him out


Yeah. He is replacement for Robin now. If they need a comic relief. He had better showings when he didn't appear in every Batman movie a decade before. Also, Harley is Trinity level. Deathstroke is no match for her. LOL

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don't know. I feel that maybe if we want Dick to grow maybe he should be cut off more from the Batfam. Not complete rather if there are crossovers he isn't there has often depending what's going on in his own book. I also feel maybe he should be both Titans and JL member it would give him more story options. I'm curious with DC they have said a few times Wonder Woman is the best fighter. This is why I kinda hate list. But I would still put Dick on the best fighters list 



> Dick and zatanna starting a family business!  so much potential so beautiful


Really? What would be your ideas? I mean since Zatanna is dealing with magical things in nature it would give something new.

----------


## Aahz

> Which is crazy if you imagine Dick has no solo movie or series.


He is the lead in Titans and Young Justice, that probably prevents any solo projects, since they usually don't want several incantaions of the same character around (and maybe they also can't due to rights).

I guess for movies, if they want to continue the DCEU they have to first sort out what they want to do with Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> Logically I do think he should be better than Bruce for that reason and the fact that he's in his prime while Bruce is getting older.


After the Dionesium in Endgame Batman should be back in peak condition.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay if we ever got a solo Nightwing movie. Who would you pick to play Dick Grayson? The question is should we get a robin movie first? Or a flashback

----------


## Restingvoice

> After the Dionesium in Endgame Batman should be back in peak condition.


Ugghhghgh. Yeah. Sure. They should've mentioned it de-age him as well. We know they're keeping him so at least that can be an explanation on why there are 20+years of Robin and he's still 30s.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How age is Dick?

----------


## Shamrock Holmes

> How age is Dick?


Very difficult to be certain, as there are many inconsistent references. However, there are a few basic points that have never IIRC been _specifically_ contradicted: 

He's 10-20 years _younger_ than Bruce (based on the later being ~25 at debut and Dick being 8-12).

He's younger than Barbara, who is younger than Bruce (little consistent detail beyond this). 

He's less than 9 years older than Tim (A flashback showed a ~3yo Tim as being present for the death of the Flying Graysons).

Jason sits somewhere between Dick and Tim ageing wise, but for various reasons is hard to lock down.

So if Bruce is say... 50... which is old, but there's enough material to justify it then Dick is between 30 and 40 and Tim should be 20-30.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Okay if we ever got a solo Nightwing movie. Who would you pick to play Dick Grayson? The question is should we get a robin movie first? Or a flashback


What about a trilogy? Like first movie is him as Robin, second movie is him as Nightwing, and then third movie is him as Batman. The amount of Dick as Batman scene on Batman : Bad Blood is definitely not enough to satisfy my love for Dickbats
Or if the time is not enough for movie, they can make a series about Dick since he became Robin until he became Batman. For that maybe they can make Bruce died for good.

----------


## Aahz

> He's 10-20 years _younger_ than Bruce (based on the later being ~25 at debut and Dick being 8-12).


If the timeline should make any sense you basically have to go with 12, which would make him 13-15 years younger than Bruce. 




> Jason sits somewhere between Dick and Tim ageing wise, but for various reasons is hard to lock down.


If you go by pre Flashpoint/ pre crisis Jason would be roughly 7 years younger than Dick, and not much older than Tim.
And for anything else to work, Jason had to either much older when he became Robin than Tim and Dick or Dick would have to already become Nightwing in his mid teens.
That's btw. also a point where the Young Justice TV Show screwed up, they had allready Tim as Robin when Dick was roughly 18, with Jason in between.

----------


## Ascended

I doubt we're getting a Nightwing movie any time in the foreseeable future. DC can barely get a movie featuring their major, A-list heroes off the ground, what hope does Dick have? I think we're more likely to get a Nightwing spin-off from the Titans show than we are a movie, and didn't they say they weren't doing any spin-offs from Titans? 

But *if* it were to somehow happen? In a perfect world I'd like to see Dick introduced in a Batman film as Robin, and use that to launch and hype up a Nightwing solo film. I think it'd be better to firmly establish Dick as a Robin so he can use the Bat fame to his advantage when he goes solo.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> What about a trilogy? Like first movie is him as Robin, second movie is him as Nightwing, and then third movie is him as Batman. The amount of Dick as Batman scene on Batman : Bad Blood is definitely not enough to satisfy my love for Dickbats
> Or if the time is not enough for movie, they can make a series about Dick since he became Robin until he became Batman. For that maybe they can make Bruce died for good.


Sounds Good. If they don't have Dick has Batman I'm fine with that. They could have the third movie be Dick getting the Titans made

----------


## K. Jones

Kind of a weird tangent, as I had this dream last night where I was watching a new Batman cartoon by Dini & Timm where Batman was like, off the deep end and strangling villains in their cells in Arkham. (The plot had elements of '66 camp ... I mean he was disguised as a Bat-Mummy. I think? it made logical sense?)

But Nightwing was in it wearing a costume that had both Blue AND Red on it. And it looked really good.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Kind of a weird tangent, as I had this dream last night where I was watching a new Batman cartoon by Dini & Timm where Batman was like, off the deep end and strangling villains in their cells in Arkham. (The plot had elements of '66 camp ... I mean he was disguised as a Bat-Mummy. I think? it made logical sense?)
> 
> But Nightwing was in it wearing a costume that had both Blue AND Red on it. And it looked really good.


What parts were Blue and what parts were red?

----------


## Restingvoice

> How age is Dick?


Bronze Age Bruce 28 Babs 25 Talia 19 Dick 18
New 52 Bruce 31 Clark 25 Diana+Selina 23 Babs 21 Dick 21 Tim 16 Damian 10

----------


## AmiMizuno

If we give Haley's Circus to Dick the only question is this. How does Dick get information to fight crime? I mean Bruce has Gordon. Who does Dick have? This is why in a sense I do think maybe Zatanna or someone else in the Circus can help him

----------


## Rac7d*

> If we give Haley's Circus to Dick the only question is this. How does Dick get information to fight crime? I mean Bruce has Gordon. Who does Dick have? This is why in a sense I do think maybe Zatanna or someone else in the Circus can help him


Barbra Gordon?

----------


## qwazer07

Stay safe everybody. It's getting crazy out there. The times we live in need more love than hate.

----------


## Ascended

> If we give Haley's Circus to Dick the only question is this. How does Dick get information to fight crime? I mean Bruce has Gordon. Who does Dick have? This is why in a sense I do think maybe Zatanna or someone else in the Circus can help him


Well, we can't "give" Haly's to Dick because it's already his, as far as IP concepts/content go. 

As for how he gets info? Dick's probably the most well connected man in comics. Where *can't* he get info? He can do his own investigations, get info from the army of Titans and former Titans who likely have Dick's name on speed dial, get info from other Bats.....it's really not a problem. Hell if you want to lowball it just have him use a police scanner and go on regular patrols like most heroes.

But if you think Dick needs a "guy in the chair" then grab any of the highly tech capable ex-Titans nobody is doing anything with. Or have Dick install a "Oracle program" on his computer. Dick getting intel is one of the easier problems to solve, honestly.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If we give Haley's Circus to Dick the only question is this. How does Dick get information to fight crime? I mean Bruce has Gordon. Who does Dick have? This is why in a sense I do think maybe Zatanna or someone else in the Circus can help him


His Gordon is either Rossbach or Svoboda in the BPD
Then there's Oracle in the Bat fam 
Tiger at Spyral is more like his old friend that he calls from time to time but doesn't call back

Normally though he just starts patrolling and finds something since he likes to stay near vulnerable areas

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. True that's all said and good. If we were to go with the Court of Owls holding on to Haley's Circus. How does Dick clean that up that could be a somewhat decent storyline.

----------


## OWL45

> True. True that's all said and good. If we were to go with the Court of Owls holding on to Haley's Circus. How does Dick clean that up that could be a somewhat decent storyline.


He could use it as a place to develop and train people with special talent kind of like the COO did with the recruits to develop heroes or vigilantes by night. Circus performers by day.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> He could use it as a place to develop and train people with special talent kind of like the COO did with the recruits to develop heroes or vigilantes by night. Circus performers by day.


Try he did that with YJ. Using it has a way to find young heroes. Runaway children that need help can easily work. He could also have the TItans involved. Especially if they are superpowered powered. Didn't Dick mentor Rose Wilson? Maybe that can be the first one?

----------


## Godlike13

> He could use it as a place to develop and train people with special talent kind of like the COO did with the recruits to develop heroes or vigilantes by night. Circus performers by day.


Thats actually not bad. Nightwing and The Owls.

----------


## dornwolf

> Thats actually not bad. Nightwing and The Owls.


What about The Flock

----------


## Godlike13

That works too. The first thing that popped to my head was Nightwing finds a collection of sleeping Talons and tries to save them using Haley’s and turning it into refuge for them now. Them all being Circus family so to speak. Jurgan’s made Cobb into some mustash twirling villain as if he was Court management, but if he actually bothered to do proper research Talons were actually just tools warped and turned to monsters by the Court.

----------


## AmiMizuno

That's really good. And if they are okay then they can help Dick once they truth him. Giving him any information they have. Also the talons young or old? For me since Dick has always been good with young kids and teens maybe they can be mixed ages.

----------


## Ascended

If I remember right, the Talons operate on a regular basis until they're edging out of their primes, probably mid-late 20's or so. Then they get frozen to ensure they don't age out of being useful, and are thawed out only when they have a mission. Then it's back to the ice.

Basically just like what was done to the Winter Soldier, if I remember right. Old enough to be both experienced and still at their physical peak, and kept on ice so they stay there.

So if Dick found a bunch of frozen Talons, they'd probably be around his age or older. But it's been a long time since I read that stuff so I could be remembering wrong.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Maybe to expand they can have children too. They were going to do it to Diamain.

----------


## Ascended

I think the Court did recruit young, they just didn't freeze anyone until they were adults. Weren't they getting ready to nab Dick after his parents died, but Bruce got there first? They definitely indoctrinate their assassins at a young age, there's just no reason to freeze them until they're getting older and you want to squeeze as much out of the investment as possible.

Assuming I remember this right, of course. 

Anyway, I'm fine with the idea of Haly's being a training ground. Court refugees or Spyral orphans or whatever, Dick's at his best when he's got some kids to teach and Haly's, whether it's a circus, casino, or varied entertainment venue, is a good place to do that. 

Now, if only DC could get a writer with ideas half as good as what this forum throws out on a daily basis, and half as much passion for the character.....

Ha! If I tweeted Jim Lee and told him I'd write the book for a dollar per issue, think he'd take me up on it?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AmiMizuno

So we have a storyline. So Dick goes undercover as an acrobat. HE does because he hears about children going missing. He kicks out the court and trains the children for using their talent for good. So what happens to the children next? Are they going to be sent to the Teen Titans? or just a new team that Dick creates? 

We can have Haley's be all three. Like someone said Haley's will travel but will also be a Bludhaven near the entertainment scene. Due to this some of the performs will work for the casinos to get some exposure for the circus. Which can have Dick be spying around.

----------


## K. Jones

> What parts were Blue and what parts were red?


Elements of black and gray akin to the Young Justice cartoon. The bird on the chest was definitely blue, I'm pretty sure the red tended to be a couple of very subtle pinstripes, pads and details on some of the designwork. The most notable and easy to remember part is that the design came together so that the tips of the feathers on the bird's wings jumped from blue to red. But it was simple, not overcomplicated, and pretty light on both colors. The biggest pop of color was the blue bird emblem. Everything else was subtle detailing, and the red was a mid-tone red. Red enough to be red, deep enough not to be bright, and muted enough not to seem like neon or anything.

----------


## sifighter

Well, look who made it back in time for Death Metal (hes next to Supergirl and Wonder Womans shoulder). Direct from Snyders twitter.

377CC154-3051-4BA7-BD81-BFA7EAE79456.jpg

----------


## Ascended

> Well, look who made it back in time for Death Metal (hes next to Supergirl and Wonder Womans shoulder). Direct from Snyders twitter.
> 
> 377CC154-3051-4BA7-BD81-BFA7EAE79456.jpg


Well hello there gorgeous. Come here often? 

It's hard to tell but is he wearing the costume from the epilogue of Doomsday Clock, the one that is basically just the old DCAU version with the actual bird/wing emblem?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Hope this is a step in the right direction

Okay if we have Haley's Circus. Okay, who is the supporting cast? I mean yeah we have Dick saving both Talons and children who were indoctrinated. Okay they are supporting cast. But to keep building his world. Maybe add Zatanna since it's needed the entertainment.

----------


## Digifiend

> Well, look who made it back in time for Death Metal (he’s next to Supergirl and Wonder Woman’s shoulder). Direct from Snyder’s twitter.
> 
> 377CC154-3051-4BA7-BD81-BFA7EAE79456.jpg


From left to right, Booster Gold, Green Arrow, Black Lightning, Mister Miracle, Harley Quinn (with a shaved head - the pants make it obvious it's her), ???, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Supergirl, Beast Boy (with a beard instead of just sideburns - he's clearly been aged up), Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Atom (Ray Palmer)?

----------


## sifighter

> From left to right, Booster Gold, Green Arrow, Black Lightning, Mister Miracle, Harley Quinn (with a shaved head - the pants make it obvious it's her), ???, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Supergirl, Beast Boy (with a beard instead of just sideburns - he's clearly been aged up), Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Atom (Ray Palmer)?


I think the ??? one might be Swamp Thing, hard to tell but in other art I've seen Swamp Thing has been dilapidated and on fire. Also I like Beast Boy being here, he and the teen titans/titans got sidelined in the last Metal event so its cool to see him alongside Dick.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah pretty sure that's Swamp Thing.




> Okay if we have Haley's Circus. Okay, who is the supporting cast? I mean yeah we have Dick saving both Talons and children who were indoctrinated. Okay they are supporting cast. But to keep building his world. Maybe add Zatanna since it's needed the entertainment.


For supporting cast you can bring back Haly. Pretty much everyone else from the New52 (Higgins?) run is dead (and not worth bringing back) or evil. But Haly would/should be a linchpin supporting cast member; Dick's Alfred. 

Were there any circus names mentioned back in the Golden Age? Any performers who spoke with the Graysons that could be brought back into the fold and/or have kids now performing? I can't think of any off the top of my head but maybe someone who's read an Archive more recently will know? 

The Talons-in-training that Dick saves would largely have to be original characters, but you could sneak in Calvin Rose (star of the short******d Talon solo) and Strix, the female Talon from Birds of Prey. Both characters are non-entities most of us have forgotten, with just enough of a character for a writer to build on. They'd be well suited for a position in the supporting cast where they perform and take care of the kids.

Zatanna, I'd be real damn careful about her. She should absolutely be a regular guest star, but making her a permanent part of the book.....that's a delicate balance. I'm all about Dick dating Power Girl, so I believe that kind of dynamic can be maintained long-term, but it's not the easiest thing to pull off without Zee looking inept or Dick looking helpless.

Then you'd have regular customers at Haly's who may or may not be established characters (depending on where Haly's is set), etc.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Yeah pretty sure that's Swamp Thing.
> 
> 
> 
> For supporting cast you can bring back Haly. Pretty much everyone else from the New52 (Higgins?) run is dead (and not worth bringing back) or evil. But Haly would/should be a linchpin supporting cast member; Dick's Alfred. 
> 
> Were there any circus names mentioned back in the Golden Age? Any performers who spoke with the Graysons that could be brought back into the fold and/or have kids now performing? I can't think of any off the top of my head but maybe someone who's read an Archive more recently will know? 
> 
> The Talons-in-training that Dick saves would largely have to be original characters, but you could sneak in Calvin Rose (star of the short******d Talon solo) and Strix, the female Talon from Birds of Prey. Both characters are non-entities most of us have forgotten, with just enough of a character for a writer to build on. They'd be well suited for a position in the supporting cast where they perform and take care of the kids.
> ...


Sounds good. The question is how does Power Girl meet DIck at least in his own book?  The way I see it is Haley's location will change. For example, Sumer/Spring they are at Bludhaven but Winter/Fall on the move.

'm curious when it comes to current animation of Nightwing who does it better YJ or DAMU?

----------


## Ascended

> Sounds good. The question is how does Power Girl meet DIck at least in his own book?


The real question is why they don't cross paths more often.

Karen Starr runs a major corporation. Dick Grayson is the first son of billionaire businessman Bruce Wayne. 

Nightwing is a respected and well known hero with ties to Gotham, Metropolis, the League and the Titans. Power Girl is a hero with ties to Metropolis, the JSA, the League, and Harley Quinn.

Dick and Karen already know each other and have worked briefly together in the League. They know a lot of the same people. There's tons of places where they could run into each other; business conventions, hero Crisis events, Haly's itself. They could run into each other while chasing down the same villain, at a memorial for fallen Terras, anywhere. 

The real challenge is building their dynamic in a organic way and not instantly pissing off the hardcore Babs and Kori shippers.

----------


## WonderNight

> The real question is why they don't cross paths more often.
> 
> Karen Starr runs a major corporation. Dick Grayson is the first son of billionaire businessman Bruce Wayne. 
> 
> Nightwing is a respected and well known hero with ties to Gotham, Metropolis, the League and the Titans. Power Girl is a hero with ties to Metropolis, the JSA, the League, and Harley Quinn.
> 
> Dick and Karen already know each other and have worked briefly together in the League. They know a lot of the same people. There's tons of places where they could run into each other; business conventions, hero Crisis events, Haly's itself. They could run into each other while chasing down the same villain, at a memorial for fallen Terras, anywhere. 
> 
> The real challenge is building their dynamic in a organic way and not instantly pissing off the hardcore Babs and Kori shippers.


Well the reason they don't cross path is because 1. DC doesn't know what to do with nightwing or what role he plays in the DCU. 2. The bat office not letting nightwing move on.

I still believe that the best status quo for nightwing is
1. Globetrotting
2.more Meta human threats
3. Greater role in the DCU

Those 3 thing should be the foundation for nightwing as a concept and stand apart from not only batman but the dozen other bat characters. 

Dick can live and own a business in bludhaven but not nightwing. Nightwing should be a global strike force.

And hell yes to nightwing and power girl :Cool:

----------


## Godlike13

To be fair, they have even less of a clue as to what to do with Power Girl.

----------


## WonderNight

> To be fair, they have even less of a clue as to what to do with Power Girl.


True! But all the more reason to shack these characters up  and do something new.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. Dick owns the Circus so he owns his own business. Haley is there to teach Dick the ropes. So how do we get Karen to meet Dick organically? I think there is a way to do it. Dick and Karen are tracking down the same lead. They help each other out. What if one of the young talon's they picked was where Karen lives. The question would be what would set Karen off to find them and how she runs into Dick. I already had the idea of the Circus is in Karent's city.

----------


## Ascended

> Well the reason they don't cross path is because 1. DC doesn't know what to do with nightwing or what role he plays in the DCU. 2. The bat office not letting nightwing move on.


I know the *real* question isn't what I posted.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I still believe that the best status quo for nightwing is
> 1. Globetrotting
> 2.more Meta human threats
> 3. Greater role in the DCU


Hells yes. 

I really think taking a page from the Grayson book and season 3 of YJ is a solid blueprint and direction; putting Dick in that "world traveling super spy" role is a niche nobody else in DC fills, it's something that plays to his strengths and history, it's unique, and he's uniquely suited to it. 

I really don't understand why DC seems to think they're better off treating Dick as a sidekick. He's not bringing sales to Batman that Batman isn't getting on his own, but as an independent hero (with ties to Gotham) Dick could be **soooooo** much more profitable than he is, and his popularity, longevity, and success in larger media all point to this character having more potential than DC is realizing. As a fan it annoys me, but as a businessman it actively makes me mad; I hate seeing money left on the table because a company is too damn lazy or stupid to see it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If we still want to have Dick globetrotting not hard. I mean how hard would it be that other performing places whether it is another circus on something similar would want to partner with him? However, a simple one would be him also searching for young talons.

----------


## Restingvoice

> To be fair, they have even less of a clue as to what to do with Power Girl.


What did Power Girl do at the height of her popularity btw?

----------


## AmiMizuno

It depends. Since she has popped up in a few animation shows. Heck in DCSuperhero girls Supergirl draws up like Powergirl. So I would say it's average. So if we have Power girl has his love interest how do we interest the two? Okay, the two meet up at a Wayne event.

----------


## dropkickjake

Oh shoot. We talking Nightwing directions/supporting casts and such again? My favorite topic!

Here's my big supporting cast pitch: Lor Zod/Chris Kent as Flamebird, Nightwing's sidekick. Granted, he might be tied up in whatever Bendis or whoever is doing right now, but things change in comics pretty quick. Lor is still young. He's got the whole evil-parents thing that keeps popping up in Dick's life. He'd be a connection to the world of the Supers that Dick fully deserves. He even has preexisting connection to property: Chris was Nightwing during the Batman Reborn era. 





> That works too. The first thing that popped to my head was Nightwing finds a collection of sleeping Talons and tries to save them using Haleys and turning it into refuge for them now. Them all being Circus family so to speak. Jurgans made Cobb into some mustash twirling villain as if he was Court management, but if he actually bothered to do proper research Talons were actually just tools warped and turned to monsters by the Court.


This is a great angle, and one I hadn't yet considered.

----------


## Godlike13

What about Jai West as a potential protege.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing and the Signal take center stage in Batman: Gotham Nights #8

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...tham-nights-8/

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing and the Signal take center stage in Batman: Gotham Nights #8
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...tham-nights-8/


Huh. Zucco's family getting bigger if we count everyone. There's the eldest daughter, Sonia, a banker. This guy, Brian Lester, looks like he's a young adult too... then there's the kid(s) he got from his new wife in New 52 who later left him.

----------


## Ascended

> What about Jai West as a potential protege.


An interesting suggestion. 

Are you thinking Jai with speed powers, Jai with no powers, or the Jai who might have maybe been the new Turtle we saw in that one panel from Doomsday Clock? 

I obviously have no idea what the current status of the West kids is, other than they're back as of that Flash Forward mini.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I could easily see Wally sending his kid/s to train with Dick, too.

Gods, a speedster who was also trained by Nightwing? That's a scary son of a bitch.....

----------


## Ascended

> Huh. Zucco's family getting bigger if we count everyone. There's the eldest daughter, Sonia, a banker. This guy, Brian Lester, looks like he's a young adult too... then there's the kid(s) he got from his new wife in New 52 who later left him.


I like it. Those classic/stereotype Italian mob bosses always have huge families.....

----------


## Godlike13

> An interesting suggestion. 
> 
> Are you thinking Jai with speed powers, Jai with no powers, or the Jai who might have maybe been the new Turtle we saw in that one panel from Doomsday Clock? 
> 
> I obviously have no idea what the current status of the West kids is, other than they're back as of that Flash Forward mini. 
> 
> I could easily see Wally sending his kid/s to train with Dick, too.
> 
> Gods, a speedster who was also trained by Nightwing? That's a scary son of a bitch.....


No powers, he could even become the turtle down the line ultimately, and ignoring current weird state of the West family. The motivation behind it would be as a way to keep Jai from being left out, and learn how to protect himself since he doesn’t have powers. Who better to show Jai you don’t necessarily need powers to be a hero.

----------


## Ascended

Hell, even if the kid has powers, there's not many people in the DCU better at training young heroes.

----------


## Robanker

> What did Power Girl do at the height of her popularity btw?


She was prominent and eventually lead the Justice Society of America (JSA, Justice Society of America and JSA vs Kobra), lead her own splinter team (JSA All-Stars) and had her own run of comics (Power Girl Vol. 2). She was appearing in other books as well. PG was making lots of waves in the mid-to-late 2000s before the reboot took out her momentum.




> What about Jai West as a potential protege.




I think Jai West would work if it was a Dick-Wally team-up book. Not that Dick couldn't be a great mentor, but Wally's one of his closest friends and the kid's dad. It would be weird if he was absent the whole time. But a Nighwing/Flash ongoing book? I'd be all over that.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Many like Rose Wilson. Why not have her come back?

----------


## Pohzee

Bring in Rose and Priest  :Cool:

----------


## Light of Justice

Seeing Wilson and Priest name after reading today's Nightwing issue made me think of this :

*spoilers:*
Bruce, Broose, Brucie, this is what happened when you neglect your sons. Villains will see them as poor lost boys and try to adopt them as their own. Before on TT Deathstoke targeted Damian, and now Joker try to adopt Dick. Perhaps after this Ra's will try to target Tim again XD
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Light of Justice

> Many like Rose Wilson. Why not have her come back?


I agree. On my memory, the last I see Rose is on Priest book and she has somewhat okay relationship with Deathstroke. I like her more when she hates Slade.

----------


## Light of Justice

> I think Jai West would work if it was a Dick-Wally team-up book. Not that Dick couldn't be a great mentor, but Wally's one of his closest friends and the kid's dad. It would be weird if he was absent the whole time. But a Nighwing/Flash ongoing book? I'd be all over that.


Me too, I am not against Nightwing has protege, but if in the future he will have protege I hope that protege is someone Dick purely choose himself and not because they are related with someone he knows. After Tim and Damian, if Wally left Jai under Dick's care, Dick will be DC's Ultimate Babysitter.

----------


## Masterff

> An interesting suggestion. 
> 
> Are you thinking Jai with speed powers, Jai with no powers, or the Jai who might have maybe been the new Turtle we saw in that one panel from Doomsday Clock? 
> 
> I obviously have no idea what the current status of the West kids is, other than they're back as of that Flash Forward mini. 
> 
> I could easily see Wally sending his kid/s to train with Dick, too.
> 
> Gods, a speedster who was also trained by Nightwing? That's a scary son of a bitch.....


So he would be like BART ALLEN.
In the issue where BART ALLEN dies in the fight vs the rogues he confirms that he was trained by BATMANS PROTEGEE.

----------


## dietrich

> Seeing Wilson and Priest name after reading today's Nightwing issue made me think of this :
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Bruce, Broose, Brucie, this is what happened when you neglect your sons. Villains will see them as poor lost boys and try to adopt them as their own. Before on TT Deathstoke targeted Damian, and now Joker try to adopt Dick. Perhaps after this Ra's will try to target Tim again XD
> *end of spoilers*


Since Rebirth Ra's has his eyes set on a new Bat kid. Duke. He's been trying his best to
seduce Duke over to the dark side.

----------


## dietrich

I love the idea of Rose as Dick's protege. He's mentored her before so why not make it status quo.
It'll mean Slade trolling Dick on a regular bases which is a very good thing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I love the idea of Rose as Dick's protege. He's mentored her before so why not make it status quo.
> It'll mean Slade trolling Dick on a regular bases which is a very good thing.


or Dick trolling Slade, depending on what kind of father he is 




> Since Rebirth Ra's has his eyes set on a new Bat kid. Duke. He's been trying his best to
> seduce Duke over to the dark side.


It's hilarious how Ra's started out with Bruce and keeps going down the line because he always failed. 
He skipped over Dick since he was Robin at the time he sets his eyes on Bruce and since he's his first victim, Dick is bound to reject the League even after he's shown his potential, so they see no point.
Then Jason died and trained among the League but he went off on his own 
Then Tim, when he lost faith on the others but of course he returns to the Bat family
Then Damian who they groomed but ran away
Now Duke

----------


## Godlike13

hilarious, or a severe lack of originality.

----------


## Light of Justice

> hilarious, or a severe lack of originality.


The severe lack of originality is what make it hilarious

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay we have Rose as Dick's protegee. What do we do with how? Do we keep her origin story or something different? Should we have her be around the same age as Dick when he became Robin?

----------


## sifighter

Oh thank god, its about time it happened properly

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...the-joker-war/

----------


## Drako

IT'S OVER!! IT'S OVER!!

"And then in Batman #99 on September 15, Nightwing returns to Gotham City in 'The Joker War' part four!" DC's description continues. "Things have changed, as Batman realizes he can’t fight this war alone. He’s going to need help. Before he faces down The Joker, he must call up his trusty partner Dick Grayson! But can Dick reclaim his lost memories in time to join the battle?"

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...the-joker-war/

----------


## DragonPiece

this could just be him supporting Tynion, but Joshua Williamson retweeted 2 tweets about nightwing returning as soon as the news happened..I wonder if he'll be the new writer after Jurgens leaves?

Either way, it's so good to see him back and Jorge's art is great as usual.

----------


## Drako

> this could just be him supporting Tynion, but Joshua Williamson retweeted 2 tweets about nightwing returning as soon as the news happened..I wonder if he'll be the new writer after Jurgens leaves?
> 
> Either way, it's so good to see him back and Jorge's art is great as usual.


Make sense, he just finished his Flash run.

----------


## sifighter

I am fine with Williamson, I like his writing on Flash and Batman/Superman so I would gladly read him on Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

New look or something to jazz up his return wouldn't have hurt.

----------


## Ascended

I still don't trust it. 

"Can Dick reclaim his lost memories in time?" Well the answer is probably "yes." This is probably the end of the Ric saga. But it could be a "Dick gets some of his memories back and is now a different kind of Ric-Dick fusion" or it'll end with Duke taking over the mantle, or a new "Rich" personality, or who the hell knows what.

When the comic is out, and we can see for a fact that Dick Grayson is back, fully and completely, then okay. But until we see that *on the page* and *in our hands* DC gets zero trust from me. How many times have solicits made us think things were being fixed, only to pull the rug out from under us? And Nightwing covers have been using the Nightwing costume in variants this whole time, so seeing Dick and Bruce on a cover doesn't mean sh*t to me either.

This is almost certainly the return of Dick Grayson that we've all been waiting for. I'd put good money on that being true. But I'm not going to take DC's word for it. I am way past trusting anything they say. Jim Lee could knock on my door and say "In this issue, Dick comes back in all his glory and I flew all the way out here just to tell you personally, because I know you're such a fan!" and unless he had a copy of that issue in his hand and a receipt of delivery from distributors, I won't trust it. After the sh*t DC has pulled, my trust is not so easily bought.

And if they want my money? They better step up their game because Jurgens and Lobdell and Percy ain't gonna cut it. Dick's return is great; we've been waiting for that for waaaay to long. But if DC wants me to buy Nightwing again they better provide some f*cking quality talent. 

If Williamson is the guy who takes over and Dick is truly back? DC gets my money again. Anything of lower quality and I refuse to support it.




> New look or something to jazz up his return wouldn't have hurt.


There was that DCAU costume from Doomsday Clock, which maybe appeared again in that Metal 2 art posted up above.....I was kinda-sorta expecting that costume (which would've been great) to be used when Dick came back. But for all we know, Dick will still switch to some new threads when the dust settles.

----------


## Drako

> New look or something to jazz up his return wouldn't have hurt.


Maybe he'll have a new costume in Nightwing 75, with a new creative team, i hope.

----------


## Godlike13

I still think 75 will be the end of his current series.

----------


## Drako

> I still think 75 will be the end of his current series.


Make sense too.
75 it's a commemorative number, but number 1's always sells more.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay overall who is NIghtwing's archyenemy? That's one thing that needs to be put up. I don't mind if he shares at least one Batman villian.

----------


## qwazer07

DICK IS BACK!!! TIME TO PARTY!!!

Joker War is making me buy comics again! Hallelujah! Thank you Baby Jesus  :Big Grin:

----------


## Elmo

> Okay overall who is NIghtwing's archyenemy? That's one thing that needs to be put up. I don't mind if he shares at least one Batman villian.


i would say Deathstroke or Blockbuster. Tony Zucco too I guess

----------


## Blue22

Oh my God. Is...is the nightmare finally over? The worst decision the post-Rebirth era ever made is finally over!? Is Dick back!?

----------


## sifighter

> Okay overall who is NIghtwing's archyenemy? That's one thing that needs to be put up. I don't mind if he shares at least one Batman villian.


I'm thinking Deathstroke honestly for all the New Teen Titans stuff, but I would honestly argue that it could be Talon/Cobb. I mean at this point they have been constantly hounding Dick for years to fall into the order for the Court of Owls, to follow his dark family lineage, that I could see Talon as his archenemy.

----------


## qwazer07

There is a Nightwing variant for Batman #99. And it looks so good and everything right about this world. I love it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The thing with Deathstorke isn't he like a hitman for hire? That's the thing what would keep him in Dick's world and not just any other character?

----------


## Drako

> There is a Nightwing variant for Batman #99. And it looks so good and everything right about this world. I love it.


The boy is looking beautiful!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Looking good. I hope they stop with all the losing memories stuff.


Okay, who are Nightwing's popular villains?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay overall who is NIghtwing's archyenemy? That's one thing that needs to be put up. I don't mind if he shares at least one Batman villian.


It used to be Blockbuster, but these days it tends to be William Cobb and The Court, but Zucco is still the most consistent because of the parent's murder thing. 




> The thing with Deathstorke isn't he like a hitman for hire? That's the thing what would keep him in Dick's world and not just any other character?


That's the thing that makes Deathstroke works with any character. Want Deathstroke just add victim.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean he could have more than one. Blockbuster can still work if you can write him right.

----------


## Restingvoice

> IT'S OVER!! IT'S OVER!!
> 
> "And then in Batman #99 on September 15, Nightwing returns to Gotham City in 'The Joker War' part four!" DC's description continues. "Things have changed, as Batman realizes he cant fight this war alone. Hes going to need help. Before he faces down The Joker, he must call up his trusty partner Dick Grayson! But can Dick reclaim his lost memories in time to join the battle?"
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...the-joker-war/


Really? You don't wanna wait until #100?

----------


## Valentonis

> I mean he could have more than one. Blockbuster can still work if you can write him right.


I thought that Raptor had potential too. Hopefully we see him again sometime, he was the rare Nightwing villain that was a part of Dick's world first and foremost.

----------


## Godlike13

Raptor was the best true Nightwing villain. A villian created for him and from him. Challenging the character about meta issues, while at same time being relevant to modern day. I really hope to see Raptor again in a big way, but at the same time from better creators as to not water him down with lazy and generic characterizations like we just saw with Cobb.

----------


## Ascended

> The boy is looking beautiful!


Jorge is a fantastic artist, I'd love to see him on Nightwing!

Oh, as for archnemesis.....it's probably between Blockbuster and Cobb. Cobb and the Court have been a big focus in recent years but Blockbuster has been a major player in Dick's story for twenty-odd years.

----------


## Godlike13

For all the main Court stories Dick is on the peripheral. Their Bat villains that the current Bat office just overuse on Nightwing. As for Cobb that last arc only the second time Dick has run into him. And to do that they completely changed him and how the Court operate.

----------


## Ascended

Eh, not like the Court has a lot of consistency to it anyway. 

I'd say Blockbuster is still the Big Bad #1, but I'm willing to entertain the notion of it being Cobb.

----------


## AmiMizuno

We could easily rewrite Cobb. Most things can work with enough imagination. So going with what we have. Dick works or at least own Haley Circus. He does live in Bludhaven with him continually traveling with Haley Circus seasonal. He have to recuse Talons and talons in training. So with this set up how does Blockbuster play a part?

----------


## Godlike13

They did rewrite Cobb. Problem is Cobb is an exploited and mutated foot soldier, in which lies the tragedy of him, with personal motivations rooted in Gotham. Trying to turn Cobb into a archenemies, that follows Dick in Bludhaven, completely misses the point of the character and what he represents.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> They did rewrite Cobb. Problem is Cobb is an exploited and mutated foot soldier, in which lies the tragedy of him, with personal motivations rooted in Gotham. Trying to turn Cobb into a archenemies, that follows Dick in Bludhaven, completely misses the point of the character and what he represents.


True. I guess he could be one of those villains that pops in and out. So far what villains could we rewrite?

----------


## K. Jones

Personally in his way of thinking, life, and modus operandi, I don't think Dick Grayson is the type of person who would have an arch-enemy. I mean jerk villains have even come at him with these personal grudges and history "from way back" trying to make nemesis-status stick and it never sticks. Dude is an upbeat, believes in the good in people piece of teflon.

From a more meta, authorial point of view ... it's hard to have an arch-enemy sometimes. Batman is very cool. Joker is kind of equally cool in his own way, or "neat" anyway. Great look, good hook. Kind of small-time considering Batman Justice Leagues every day but Joker only Dooms once in a great while. But it's personal. It's a local beef. It's like Whoever's Pizza versus Whoever's Pizza in some city. 

I guess a villain kind of reflects some of the flaws in a hero, so Joker pushes the lines of decency like an edgy comedian and Batman just won't kill him. His antipathy tests the heroism of the no kill rule. So on so forth and after that it's basically just a small-town rivalry between egos, because they're both criminals, deviants and immoral, it just depends who is casting the aspersions.

In Dick Grayson's case it's hard. He's very optimistic. So you might think, oh give him a cynic! They rolled that out with James Gordon Jr. in Snyder's Black Mirror. Good run of comics, but that dude as a villain does not have legs. Plus you can't make anyone "Gordon" into a Grayson rival. But more than that ... he's optimistic but dude is not naive or idealistic. He grew up in Batman's house. He's shrewd. 

They tried the "we were punk kids together thing" a dozen times, but foremost with like, well, Crime School for Boys, but more recently, Shrike. No legs. Then again he had a pretty bad late 90s costume. Real bad costume. Plus everyone was just assassins back then in the late 90s.

They've tried the femme fatale angle a few times and it never seems to work but probably because it seems childish and rote? Dick has a string of lovers (more or less all fellow superheroes) that are all such good people (and cool characters) that we constantly debate who is the best one for him like a celebrity couple that broke up! The answer of course is that they're ALL really good for him. The common denominator is Dick Grayson. He's bad for all of them. Dick Grayson is a flake.

How do you make a femme fatale expoit THAT though? He actually IS dating a superhero ... but then flakes on her even after there was marriage teases ... he pulls a Kory (or Babs) and leaves her at the altar or close to it, or I mean, he could cheat. Dude lives life keeping secrets ... and THAT is what causes her to become a super-villain. That mister perfect Dick Grayson, god that he is, doesn't want her? Kind of weak. Oh I mean it happens to people in real life, they become enemies because of heart-break. I just think you know, it's a weakness. It's not a healthy approach. Which of course, screams super-villain to you? Well of course. But not a STRONG arch-nemesis of a super-villain who can match Dick in wits, blows, and emotional headgames. That's a nemesis but not an ARCH-nemesis.

So man, what's the approach?

The easy answer is of course ... if Dick Grayson is a spy, his opposite number in the rival organization instantly gets to be a hand-crafted arch-nemesis. I mean, you could even make him go villain and it could actually be NEMESIS. A lover boy, a pretty boy. A master spy. Dick might be more the fighter, but Nemesis is the master of disguise. Dick dated Koriander? Nemesis dated Wonder Woman. And now he's a villain. But a rival with a code. Just not Dick's code. Not Batman's naive super-hero code. For the greater good, people gotta die. And Dick Grayson is in the way. And maybe just maybe it's the moral argument. The logical argument. And what's more ... in his youth ... Alfred Pennyworth, Dick's fatherly surrogate figure who he loves and respects ... used to be a Nemesis type guy. An agent, man of action ... and killer, which pits the ideals and values of BOTH of Dick's role models against each other in his mind.

----------


## Robanker

Fool me once, DC... I'll believe he's back when I read it on the printed page.

But I will leaf through the book in my LCS to see if I'm buying the issue. I miss Nightwing so damn bad.

----------


## WonderNight

Dick being back is great and all but I don't see much changeing from what we have now.

----------


## Restingvoice

> IT'S OVER!! IT'S OVER!!
> 
> "And then in Batman #99 on September 15, Nightwing returns to Gotham City in 'The Joker War' part four!" DC's description continues. "Things have changed, as Batman realizes he cant fight this war alone. Hes going to need help. Before he faces down The Joker, he must call up his trusty partner Dick Grayson! But can Dick reclaim his lost memories in time to join the battle?"
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...the-joker-war/


By the way that's Batman's dad's bod. He doesn't have a beer belly, he just got really wide. Like this is the preview of his TDKR build.

----------


## Coco Loco

This storyline didn't get any smarter during the three-month break.  Jurgens got in a few jabs that were funny - I think he realizes he's trying to make lemonade here - but it is.  Still.  So.  Stupid.  Bea is almost as annoying as Ric.  There's a scene with the fake Nightwings in the most recent issue that is like every badly written hospital scene ever, jumbled into one mess.  (BTW anesthesia doesn't take two minutes to knock you out.  They tell you to count backwards from 10.  You're asleep before you get to 1.)

I assume this will eventually serve the purpose of undoing this nonsense, but ugh.

----------


## Drako

You know what is really weird in issue #71? Spoilers ahead, i guess.

Ric left the Bar and immediately Joker appears at the stairs. Then we see Ric fighting and defeating Tusk but the Joker still is at the same place we last saw him, making time for Ric to rescue Bea. So Ric changed his clothes, fought Tusk like a block away, realize the Joker was behind this distraction, came back and the Clown just went down the stairs? 

You could take all the pages of the fight off and nothing really changes.

I really wish i are not stuck with Dun Jurgens after Dick is back.

----------


## Light of Justice

> You know what is really weird in issue #71? Spoilers ahead, i guess.
> 
> Ric left the Bar and immediately Joker appears at the stairs. Then we see Ric fighting and defeating Tusk but the Joker still is at the same place we last saw him, making time for Ric to rescue Bea. So Ric changed his clothes, fought Tusk like a block away, realize the Joker was behind this distraction, came back and the Clown just went down the stairs? 
> 
> You could take all the pages of the fight off and nothing really changes.
> 
> I really wish i are not stuck with Dun Jurgens after Dick is back.


Joker did the super slow walk of villains hahaha

What makes me curious is why Tusk have complete 2 ivories? Didn't he lost one of his ivories in the past? Or ivories can grow up after being cut like nails?

----------


## Coco Loco

> You know what is really weird in issue #71? Spoilers ahead, i guess.
> 
> Ric left the Bar and immediately Joker appears at the stairs. Then we see Ric fighting and defeating Tusk but the Joker still is at the same place we last saw him, making time for Ric to rescue Bea. So Ric changed his clothes, fought Tusk like a block away, realize the Joker was behind this distraction, came back and the Clown just went down the stairs? 
> 
> You could take all the pages of the fight off and nothing really changes.
> 
> I really wish i are not stuck with Dun Jurgens after Dick is back.


Yup.  Good point.  Why would Joker bother to distract him at all, if he was just going to wait patiently for him to get back?

----------


## AmiMizuno

This is why I question is Dick a well Dick if he cheats? Dc loves to have Dick at times be the Cheater.  What do you guys think? He cheated on Kory and Babs. I mean he at least needs to have a villain that he fights often. We also have at least one femme fatale.  He is part of the Batfam.

----------


## Godlike13

He cheated 1 time.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Oh. My bad. It's been a while. My friends kept telling me he has cheated on women before. Okay. Should he have a femme Fatale? I mean does he need Mutiple lov interests? We have Kori and Babs. Do we need someone else to mix the pot?

----------


## Elmo

> Oh. My bad. It's been a while. My friends kept telling me he has cheated on women before. Okay. Should he have a femme Fatale? I mean does he need Mutiple lov interests? We have Kori and Babs. Do we need someone else to mix the pot?


https://community.cbr.com/showthread...son-s-Soulmate

one of the best threads ever. 100+ pages for a reason.

I personally don't care if Dick is single or has a love interest, I would only feel uncomfortable if he is regarded as some sleazy playboy. Dick Grayson is someone who is universally respected by the superhero community so that should remain true even with his romantic flings, no matter how awkward.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> https://community.cbr.com/showthread...son-s-Soulmate
> 
> one of the best threads ever. 100+ pages for a reason.
> 
> I personally don't care if Dick is single or has a love interest, I would only feel uncomfortable if he is regarded as some sleazy playboy. Dick Grayson is someone who is universally respected by the superhero community so that should remain true even with his romantic flings, no matter how awkward.


Agree. Now, how well respect is he?

----------


## Elmo

> Agree. Now, how well respect is he?


dick grayson pulls a lot of weight. he is one of the most respected legacy characters and one of the most respected characters in all of DC. 

when it comes to "how well respected is he," well you'd have to read some of his character interactions. I'd say he earned that title in my eyes through the 2000s.

----------


## Ascended

In-universe, Dick is one of the most respected people in the heroic community. Or was, anyway. In recent years it seems this has been downplayed a lot, as with many other elements of Dick's life and ability. 

I'd argue that if you were going to make a list (not based on current continuity), it'd go Superman, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Batman. 

People know that Batman will get the job done and his dedication to his mission is truly admirable and knows no limits. But he's also a jackass who has a habit of being a manipulative control freak. When Batman says "Do this thing and we'll win the fight" people know that if they do the thing, the fight will be won. But there are concerns about Batman; he has plans to stop you, he's got spy satellites watching you, he's got secrets that might impact you he won't share, he'll suck you into his plans and use you, and might even be manipulating you right now. Batman is respected, but not trusted.

With Nightwing, there isn't any of that doubt. People think he's got a moral compass on the level of Superman's, the technical and tactical prowess of Batman (or close to it), and the compassion of Diana. Like Superman himself says in Seeley's run "The Nightwing seal of approval carries a lot of weight."

----------


## AmiMizuno

How much of his life has been downplayed? If there is a way to fix it would be nice. Maybe even those he isn't actually a JL member. He could get an arc with the JL.

----------


## Godlike13

> You know what is really weird in issue #71? Spoilers ahead, i guess.
> 
> Ric left the Bar and immediately Joker appears at the stairs. Then we see Ric fighting and defeating Tusk but the Joker still is at the same place we last saw him, making time for Ric to rescue Bea. So Ric changed his clothes, fought Tusk like a block away, realize the Joker was behind this distraction, came back and the Clown just went down the stairs? 
> 
> You could take all the pages of the fight off and nothing really changes.
> 
> I really wish i are not stuck with Dun Jurgens after Dick is back.


LoL, ya such poorly executed padding to needlessly stretch the issue. But honestly is pretty much how all Jurgans' issues go though. 75% of the are generic padding till he gets to basically the cover.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The more I think about. The more I wonder. Is one reason why none of the Robins have appeared is due to Batman and Robin?

----------


## Elmo

> The more I think about. The more I wonder. Is one reason why none of the Robins have appeared is due to Batman and Robin?


what do you mean

----------


## Claude

> I am fine with Williamson, I like his writing on Flash and Batman/Superman so I would gladly read him on Nightwing.


I'd be happy with Williamson, too - he's not one of the "A-List Dream" writers, but he's got a lot of pluses in the Nightwing-specific writer stakes. He's big enough to have a bit of clout, but not so big that he isn't happy to commit to long runs. He plays well with editorial, without the cracks really showing. His Flash run showed him happy to do the long-term grinding of developing allies and villains without taking the main character away from centre-stage....

We could do a lot worse!

----------


## Godlike13

Honestly i'd be shocked if they had a creative team yet.

----------


## Drako

What would be your creative team for Nightwing? Not a dream team, but one that could happen IRL. 

My right now is Joshua Williamson and Travis Moore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> what do you mean


From what I could see maybe Batman and Robin had cancalled any ideas of having Nightwing having a movie. Or any other robins appearing in Batman

----------


## Valentonis

> What would be your creative team for Nightwing? Not a dream team, but one that could happen IRL. 
> 
> My right now is Joshua Williamson and Travis Moore.


Is getting Seeley back too unrealistic :Stick Out Tongue:  

His run wasn't perfect but I felt like he genuinely understood what made the character tick, if editorial took the hands off the wheel a bit I feel like he could do something really interesting with Nightwing's world.

----------


## Ascended

If we're talking pure "realistic" choices, then Williamson is my top choice. I agree with everything Claude said; Williamson has clout, but isn't such a big name DC would pull him off the book to do some big high profile Crisis gig. Williamson can do long runs and develop characters and concepts over the long term, and he can play nice with editorial and make whatever crap they throw at him work to his advantage. 

I wouldn't be opposed to Waid either, if the rumors of him returning to DC are true. But he doesn't seem to do long runs anymore, and I don't enjoy his work as much as I used to, otherwise he'd be my #1 pick. 

More than anything I'd like to see Seeley put back on the title with no editorial interference, but I don't think that's in the cards. 

As for artists.....Dan Mora. He's a legit talent with a really great style that's fitting for Nightwing, but I don't think he's such a big deal that he's "too big" for Nightwing. 

I'd also love to get Jorge Jimenez but I'm not sure if he's too big a name now, after his JL run.

----------


## Godlike13

I wouldn't mind Seeley back on the character with a Black Label. A Black Label Grayson even maybe, lol.  When it comes to the main series though i don't want to see them go back. Honestly im kind of hoping for new blood, someone from out of the industry even.

Also are we sure Williamson is a realistic choice. Going from Flash and Batman/Superman to Nightwing. Ya, i don't see it. He seems the kind of creator they would take off Nightwing so they could put him on the more favorable ips.

----------


## Ascended

> Also are we sure Williamson is a realistic choice. Going from Flash and Batman/Superman to Nightwing. Ya, i don't see it. He seems the kind of creator they would take off Nightwing so they could put him on the more favorable ips.


Well we don't really know how DC rates their talent or what books that talent can have, so no we're not sure.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I haven't looked at sales figures in a while, but far as I know both Flash and Superman-Batman are mid-tier titles with mid-level sales. I'm pretty sure that Nightwing sold roughly the same as both, and possibly better, back in normal days before DC took a collective crap on Dick Grayson's head. So it might not be out of the realm of possibility.

----------


## Robanker

Hey man, I adore Dan Mora and if we could clone him, yeah, give me some Dan Mora Nightwing... But I don't want to lose Once & Future and the occasional Klaus! 


I think Gail Simone, Chip Zdarsky or Matt Fraction would be great on Nightwing if given a shot.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What would be your creative team for Nightwing? Not a dream team, but one that could happen IRL. 
> 
> My right now is Joshua Williamson and Travis Moore.


Travis Moore, with cover by Dan Mora and variant by Jorge Jimenez

Writer, either Snyder or Seeley, each has its own weakness. Snyder with his narration and tendency to go too epic. Seeley tends to make Dick to self-aware at being sexy and no-homo-ing Superman. 

I think I'm gonna go with Snyder because unlike Batman who has enough epic, Dick NEEDS an epic where he's the main character. Most of his stories tend to be personal while in any epic he's more of a supporting cast.

----------


## L.H.

I loved this panel, it was about time to restore Dick and Slade's past history.

----------


## Digifiend

That's been restored for a while. When Dick's real memories were restored (remember, he simply can't tell them from the fake Talon ones, hence why he's still Ric), we saw moments from Dick's past - including the debut of the first Nightwing costume, which was clearly shown to be inside Titans Tower. Both this costume and the next one are being worn by two of the four new Nightwings (the other two use the New 52 and Rebirth costumes). So we know New Teen Titans happened. Additionally, Donna Troy now remembers all of her conflicting origins, including both from New Teen Titans (pre and post Crisis).




> Oh. My bad. It's been a while. My friends kept telling me he has cheated on women before. Okay. Should he have a femme Fatale? I mean does he need Mutiple lov interests? We have Kori and Babs. Do we need someone else to mix the pot?


This topic came up in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey. Batgirl and Huntress both love Dick (remember, Helena was Matron in the Grayson series), and Dick was dating the Defacer at the time. So yup, he had three love interests, and that's without Starfire being involved!

----------


## Claude

> I loved this panel, it was about time to restore Dick and Slade's past history.


If the insistence of keeping "Ric" in place until Joker War is so that they can spin-off a revived "Nightwing vs Deathstroke" personal rivalry out of its events in a Nightwing relaunch then... 

... Well, if will still have been a stupid idea. But a slightly more respectable one.

----------


## L.H.

> That's been restored for a while. When Dick's real memories were restored (remember, he simply can't tell them from the fake Talon ones, hence why he's still Ric), we saw moments from Dick's past - including the debut of the first Nightwing costume, which was clearly shown to be inside Titans Tower. Both this costume and the next one are being worn by two of the four new Nightwings (the other two use the New 52 and Rebirth costumes). So we know New Teen Titans happened. Additionally, Donna Troy now remembers all of her conflicting origins, including both from New Teen Titans (pre and post Crisis)


I know, but the timeline is still a mess. Since Rebirth, they met in the Lazarus Contract arc, and the Priest's story about Damian father. Dick has seen his memory of Judas Contract (when he first wore the Nightwing suite), but not Slade. 
Something is still missing, and DC pushed so hard to make Slade a Damian's enemy, i thought they were just going to ignore Dick and Slade's past rivalry. 
Tynion, instead, is clearly telling us that Slade is going to help Joker only because of Dick, and that's just what I was waiting for.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick's memories being restored has been meaningless and inconsequential. A lazy attempt at fan appeasement that ultimately has served no purpose. They might a well not have done it cause it hasn't mattered in anyway.

----------


## dietrich

> I know, but the timeline is still a mess. Since Rebirth, they met in the Lazarus Contract arc, and the Priest's story about Damian father. Dick has seen his memory of Judas Contract (when he first wore the Nightwing suite), but not Slade. 
> Something is still missing, and DC pushed so hard to make Slade a Damian's enemy, i thought they were just going to ignore Dick and Slade's past rivalry. 
> Tynion, instead, is clearly telling us that Slade is going to help Joker only because of Dick, and that's just what I was waiting for.


DC had nothing to do with Priest's obsession with Damian and Slade.

----------


## dietrich

> Dick's memories being restored has been meaningless and inconsequential. A lazy attempt at fan appeasement that ultimately has served no purpose. They might a well not have done it cause it hasn't mattered in anyway.


This. It irk's me so much when I see posts on reddit announcing that he's back y'all! Lets Party! Isn't it great Tynion finally brought him back!.

Dick Grayson is not back yet. It takes more than him being called Dick not Ric or remembering his past. 
Is he even acting like Dick Grayson? Can we recognise him?

----------


## AmiMizuno

With how many ideas we have on this forum. If we had to go with the lose memories than fake memories how would you guys write the story.

----------


## BloodOps

> I loved this panel, it was about time to restore Dick and Slade's past history.


I actually really like this panel too, it'd be nice if they renewed this rivalry a bit. The last good bit of stuff we got between two was in Morrison's Batman and Robin run. Slade has been so busy with Bruce and Damian these last few years. 

I'm sure the Titans show will help the push in the comics, but we'll take what we can get.

----------


## K. Jones

> If the insistence of keeping "Ric" in place until Joker War is so that they can spin-off a revived "Nightwing vs Deathstroke" personal rivalry out of its events in a Nightwing relaunch then... 
> 
> ... Well, if will still have been a stupid idea. But a slightly more respectable one.


I mean if you're going to keep going back to the same well, at least go back to the one with the potable water.

----------


## Digifiend

> I actually really like this panel too, it'd be nice if they renewed this rivalry a bit. The last good bit of stuff we got between two was in Morrison's Batman and Robin run. Slade has been so busy with Bruce and Damian these last few years. 
> 
> I'm sure the Titans show will help the push in the comics, but we'll take what we can get.


Shows don't cause comic pushes.

Arrow - we didn't suddenly get multiple Canaries in the comics.
Flash - Vibe has been totally AWOL in Rebirth, and I think the same goes for Elongated Man?
Legends of Tomorrow - this team doesn't exist in the comics at all.
Supergirl - when was the last time comics Kara interacted with Martian Manhunter? Also, her adoptive sister doesn't exist in the comics.
Superman & Lois - they have two sons, one of whom doesn't exist in the comics.
Swamp Thing - didn't get a comic at the time the show was released.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Shows don't cause comic pushes.
> 
> Arrow - we didn't suddenly get multiple Canaries in the comics.
> Flash - Vibe has been totally AWOL in Rebirth, and I think the same goes for Elongated Man?
> Legends of Tomorrow - this team doesn't exist in the comics at all.
> Supergirl - when was the last time comics Kara interacted with Martian Manhunter? Also, her adoptive sister doesn't exist in the comics.
> Superman & Lois - they have two sons, one of whom doesn't exist in the comics.
> Swamp Thing - didn't get a comic at the time the show was released.


Conversely, you had the Rebirth Titans series, which was about dealing with the fallout of kids whose metagenes were activated through...source wall energy leakage I think? This is similar to the plot of Young Justice season 3, which also involved people taking advantage of kids with new activated metagenes. And probably the aspect of working alongside the JL/Miss Martian being a team member after volume 4. 

I would also argue that things like BTAS resulted in Dick and Babs being more of a thing in comics.

I think it just depends, really.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I did it depends. The Wonder Twins became characters in the comics. Which did have a little push.

----------


## DragonPiece

Nightwing is a part of the Justice League during the new death metal crossover

justiceleague53.jpg

Justice League 52

written by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON
art by XERMANICO
cover by LIAM SHARP
variant cover by BEN OLIVER
"Doom Metal" part one of five -- the Dark Nights: Death Metal tie-in that will directly impact the finale of that event! Nightwing's on a mission to free the Legion of Doom from Perpetua's clutches. But to do so, he'll need the help of none other than...Lex Luthor?! The surprises are only just beginning, as Nightwing, Lex, and a new Justice League must fight their way through an Earth twisted by the Dark Multiverse. Titans will be tested, hearts will be broken, and blood will be spilled!
32 pages, $3.99, available on Sept 15.

----------


## Godlike13

Well, thats something. Im up for some Nightwing and Lex. And is that Detective Chimp lol.

----------


## Ascended

I wonder how many times Dick will come in to save the world with the "in case of emergency break glass" Justice League before he gets a regular seat at the table?

DC will never pull Batman from the League for Dick's sake (even though Bruce probably shouldn't be so involved with the team) but they could give Dick Ollie's spot.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

I kind of like that idea though. It fits with his character. Its like when he became Batman. Its not that he wanted to be Batman, but felt he had to. I like the idea that Dick doesn't want to be them, but he'll be the first guy to be there for them. Not to act as fodder though. I don't mean in that way. Honestly the more i think about it, the more i like it. It would serve a role rather than just being there. We have seen characters come and go on JL all the time, but how many actually serve a role.

----------


## Claude

> Nightwing is a part of the Justice League during the new death metal crossover
> 
> Attachment 97504
> 
> Justice League 52
> 
> written by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON
> art by XERMANICO
> cover by LIAM SHARP
> ...


And by Joshua Williamson, too...

Either this will launch Williamson on "Nightwing", or the story will end up with a line up of heroes who get launched as a new Titans. That's my prediction.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Additionally, Donna Troy now remembers all of her conflicting origins, including both from New Teen Titans (pre and post Crisis).


Wait, what? This is news to me.

Anyways, I'm interested to see where this Doom Metal stuff goes. Would be nice if Nightwing was allowed to head up the Justice League book...

----------


## qwazer07

Anyone else feel the change since DiDio left? I would have never imagined Nightwing to lead the Justice League again.

Dicky or Joker Jr. is also going to fight Batgirl, Batman and the other Robins. If he beat or stalemate them, that will be nice and funny. We deserve it after the Ric nightmare.

----------


## Ascended

> *Anyone else feel the change since DiDio left?* I would have never imagined Nightwing to lead the Justice League again.


I want to say yes, but I'm afraid I'm just grabbing at anything that looks even remotely like hope.

But.....Snyder doing a Grayson project, Dick getting back to normal, what appears to be a five issue story where he gets to lead a League in the flagship title.....

Even if none of this has actually materialized yet, just the rumor and hint and solicits are better than what we got under Didio in the last few years.

Lee did say he'd protect Nightwing. Maybe he was serious about that. But I've been burned by DC enough to not trust a thing they say until I have the issue/s in my own hands. And that's just getting Nightwing back on track, "quality" hasn't even entered the conversation yet and I demand more from DC and Nightwing than just crap stories where Dick is wearing the costume and going by the right name. No, I demand good stories too!

I remain in a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" mindset for now. 

But, unless my eyes deceive me, things *are* looking a bit better.

----------


## Claude

> I wonder how many times Dick will come in to save the world with the "in case of emergency break glass" Justice League before he gets a regular seat at the table?
> 
> DC will never pull Batman from the League for Dick's sake (even though Bruce probably shouldn't be so involved with the team) but they could give Dick Ollie's spot.


Does that really happen much? I know there was Obsidian Age, but I can't think of any other examples.

(Forever Evil seemed to be going that way before plans changed, though -  and No Justice _definitely_ was.)

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh I still think 75 is going to be the end of his current series, and that they are bringing him back only to end his series at the same time. And if they do relaunch his book it probably won't be till after Metal. So i think the prospect they found themselves looking at was that they were bringing Nightwing back only to have him disappear for 7 months. They kind of had to find something to fill in that time. Otherwise any fan favor they might get back from bringing him back would be all for nothing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If they do relaunch his book. I wonder if they will actually  do a good job. I also wonder why can't Dick just be placed in a different branch of the JL. If we look at YJ. Why not have him do a new branch. Like if we go with the Talon circus idea why not looking for other children like that?

----------


## qwazer07

Inject that Snyder detective Nightwing story where he surpasses Batman in some areas directly into my veins. That is my dream and shit.

----------


## Digifiend

> Wait, what? This is news to me.


You didn't read the _Year of the Villain: The Infected: Deathbringer_ one-shot six months ago? It starred the Titans team and showed how Donna became part of Batman Who Laughs' team. She mentions her conflicting origins in that issue.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/The_Infec...ringer_Vol_1_1

----------


## Ascended

> Eeh I still think 75 is going to be the end of his current series, and that they are bringing him back only to end his series at the same time. And if they do relaunch his book it probably won't be till after Metal. So i think the prospect they found themselves looking at was that they were bringing Nightwing back only to have him disappear for 7 months. They kind of had to find something to fill in that time. Otherwise any fan favor they might get back from bringing him back would be all for nothing.


Very possibly. But I haven't read the book for....two years now? How long has Ric been a thing? So if they do cancel the title and then wait until after Metal for the relaunch it's not like I'm losing anything I currently have.

I'd hope DC wouldn't squander Dick's return with a seven month hiatus, but expecting smart things from them is setting yourself up for disappointment.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Which writers do you guys think they should get? I mean the more I think about it. Dan Dido approved of these. He wanted Dick, so maybe this is a safe better someone good will be brought on

----------


## Badou

I wouldn't get your hopes up for Dick's role in Death Metal. The first Metal story should be a clear indication that Dick isn't someone that involved with it. It isn't really his story. Remember when people thought Dick's tie in issue with Hurt would lead to something? It didn't. Also they had Dick basically give up and wanted to leave Bruce for dead after Gotham fell and got punched in the face by Damian in the main Metal issue. Then he didn't appear in the series again until he was just shown dancing with some other DC heroes at the end while the actual important DC characters (the JL characters) went off to discuss important things.


Anyway, surprised it hasn't been posted yet but in a podcast Snyder talked about his upcoming plans about Death Metal and his Nightwing pitch. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ks_continuity/

_"Snyder’s Nightwing has been pitched (with a high likelihood of it happening). Black Label. A mystery story that focuses on how different he is as a detective compared to Bruce, and how he’s also a better one in certain ways. “The most empathetic character in the family”. Shows his days as Robin, but shows the “possibilities” of where he could go later in life. The villain “is not a classic one”. Members of the bat-family pop up a few times."_

So as expected it is out of DC's continuity and it will be in their Black Label line. That felt like the most obvious place it was going to be or some original graphic novel type of thing.

----------


## Claude

> I wouldn't get your hopes up for Dick's role in Death Metal. The first Metal story should be a clear indication that Dick isn't someone that involved with it. It isn't really his story. Remember when people thought Dick's tie in issue with Hurt would lead to something? It didn't. Also they had Dick basically give up and wanted to leave Bruce for dead after Gotham fell and got punched in the face by Damian in the main Metal issue. Then he didn't appear in the series again until he was just shown dancing with some other DC heroes at the end while the actual important DC characters (the JL characters) went off to discuss important things.


Well, the Dr Hurt tie-in led to the four part "Resistance" tie-in the Metal across Nightwing, Teen Titans and Green Arrow. I've sometimes wondered if, given Nightwing's relatively strong supporting character status in the early issues of Metal and that tie-in story, his near absence from the end of the story was related to the same editorial decision that replace him with Green Arrow for "No Justice".

Were I a cynical man, I might suspect that the solicitation explicitly stating that the Justice League story will directly influence the ending of the event is a pre-emptive response to these kinds of reactions.

(We're also in a very different place for Nightwing now - for the first Metal, his tie-ins were mostly forgettable and seemed to intrude on Seeley's first Hurt story and prevent his second - and I'd rather he hadn't been involved at all. Now, even if it doesn't come to anything, five issues of Dick in the Justice League title with Lex Luthor in a story that contributes to the finale of Death Metal stands in contrast to... Well, Ric Grayson And The Nightwings. I'll take it!)





> Anyway, surprised it hasn't been posted yet but in a podcast Snyder talked about his upcoming plans about Death Metal and his Nightwing pitch. 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ks_continuity/
> 
> _"Snyder’s Nightwing has been pitched (with a high likelihood of it happening). Black Label. A mystery story that focuses on how different he is as a detective compared to Bruce, and how he’s also a better one in certain ways. “The most empathetic character in the family”. Shows his days as Robin, but shows the “possibilities” of where he could go later in life. The villain “is not a classic one”. Members of the bat-family pop up a few times."_
> 
> So as expected it is out of DC's continuity and it will be in their Black Label line. That felt like the most obvious place it was going to be or some original graphic novel type of thing.


That all sounds good to me!

----------


## K. Jones

> I wouldn't get your hopes up for Dick's role in Death Metal. The first Metal story should be a clear indication that Dick isn't someone that involved with it. It isn't really his story. Remember when people thought Dick's tie in issue with Hurt would lead to something? It didn't. Also they had Dick basically give up and wanted to leave Bruce for dead after Gotham fell and got punched in the face by Damian in the main Metal issue. Then he didn't appear in the series again until he was just shown dancing with some other DC heroes at the end while the actual important DC characters (the JL characters) went off to discuss important things.


I wouldn't either, but I did note in the solicits that Nightwing is headlining Justice League in that shadow-dropped announcement of another Five-Issue tie-in to Death Metal. It has Hawkgirl and what looks like Lobo on the cover. I'd be curious to see if Cyborg, Starfire and Azrael return for that book because you know, they work pretty well with Nightwing.

Can't wait to see what other books join the "we don't want to overwhelm you with crossovers" line! I mean legitimately. It's a little funny to me at this point. Ultimately in this case there's not really any ongoings so strong that I care if they're interrupted by joining Death Metal, except maybe Morrison's Green Lantern, which I imagine either won't crossover at all ... or will have some kind of magical one-shot that does its own thing so well it doesn't matter that it's tying in.

----------


## Ascended

> I wouldn't get your hopes up for Dick's role in Death Metal.


I don't expect him to have anything more than a cameo. But potentially leading a five issue arc in Justice League is still a hell of a lot more than he's gotten in recent years. If it happens and plays out in a way that treats him as even semi-competent. 

It looks like it might be progress. It might even actually be progress. But we'll see what's on the actual page.




> Anyway, surprised it hasn't been posted yet but in a podcast Snyder talked about his upcoming plans about Death Metal and his Nightwing pitch. 
> 
> So as expected it is out of DC's continuity and it will be in their Black Label line. That felt like the most obvious place it was going to be or some original graphic novel type of thing.


Works for me. I feel like this is probably going to be the DickBats story Snyder didn't get the chance to tell and Dick will be wearing the Bat cowl, so I'm fine with it being out of continuity and self-contained. 

I'd have rather seen Snyder on the regular Nightwing title, with Dick in the Nightwing costume and all the proper memories and names attached, just because Dick could use such a high profile writer. But I'm also hoping to see DC push deeper into the OGN, self-contained stuff that doesn't rely on main continuity, so it's cool.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I wouldn't either, but I did note in the solicits that Nightwing is headlining Justice League in that shadow-dropped announcement of another Five-Issue tie-in to Death Metal. It has Hawkgirl and what looks like Lobo on the cover. I'd be curious to see if Cyborg, Starfire and Azrael return for that book because you know, they work pretty well with Nightwing.


That's not Lobo, that's just Liam Sharp drawing Nightwing lmao. After Jon Snow, this is a bit of a downgrade, but I guess a Conan the Barbarian look isn't the worst possible choice for Dick. This "new" JL is looking like Dick and the stragglers of the various Leagues, so Kendra and Bobo so far, and would leave the door open to Vic, Kory, and anyone else in the JLO book.

----------


## BloodOps

> Shows don't cause comic pushes.
> 
> Arrow - we didn't suddenly get multiple Canaries in the comics.
> Flash - Vibe has been totally AWOL in Rebirth, and I think the same goes for Elongated Man?
> Legends of Tomorrow - this team doesn't exist in the comics at all.
> Supergirl - when was the last time comics Kara interacted with Martian Manhunter? Also, her adoptive sister doesn't exist in the comics.
> Superman & Lois - they have two sons, one of whom doesn't exist in the comics.
> Swamp Thing - didn't get a comic at the time the show was released.


Big difference is that Slade and Dick have history, and a lot of it. The success of the show could easily lead to a push in the comics, or if they do a push it could be completely unrelated. 

Or its just a few comic pages and that'll be the extent of Slade/Dick in this crossover.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True Slade can be Dick's archenemy. Like Slade was paid to kill DIck but it doesn't work out. In a sense, Slade without being paid decides to kill Dick himself.

----------


## Restingvoice

> True Slade can be Dick's archenemy. Like Slade was paid to kill DIck but it doesn't work out. In a sense, Slade without being paid decides to kill Dick himself.


Things got personal between Slade and Dick in Post Crisis because when Dick went undercover to get rid of the mob from Bludhaven, he's also tasked to train Deathstroke's daughter Rose. He did, but also instilled some morals into her, which he didn't like, and as revenge, when he was in Villains United, dropped Chemo to nuke Bludhaven. Slade was also on board when hired by Talia to control Damian through the chip in his spine to kill Dick. 

But that's only the latest of Slade's kids that affected by their relationship with Dick. 

Before that, Slade respects Dick for old time's sake. When he was hired to kill Bludhaven good cop Amy Rossbach, he dropped by Dick's place to give him a fair chance to stop him. He asked what does it take to get Dick out of the way, and Dick challenged to kill him, which Slade didn't want to do if he doesn't have to. 

On the other hand, Rebirth Slade was the one asking Dick to teach Rose some morals so she doesn't turn out like him.

In the show Titans, Slade promised to stop hunting Titans for his son's Jericho's death as long as Titans disbanded. Jericho died protecting Dick from Slade. In the comics, Jericho became Dick's friend and a Titans (before he turned evil but we don't talk about that). 

In the comics, Slade's enmity with the Titans stemmed from his son Grant's death, but how it ended depends. In Rebirth, he promised he'll let go of Titans if Dick teaches Rose. 

So which Slade do you want to use? The one who cares about his daughter's moral or not? How much he cares about his kids and how Dick relates to them (and he relates to all of them one way or another), determines how much he makes things personal with Dick.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Anyway, surprised it hasn't been posted yet but in a podcast Snyder talked about his upcoming plans about Death Metal and his Nightwing pitch. 
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ks_continuity/
> 
> _"Snyders Nightwing has been pitched (with a high likelihood of it happening). Black Label. A mystery story that focuses on how different he is as a detective compared to Bruce, and how hes also a better one in certain ways. The most empathetic character in the family. Shows his days as Robin, but shows the possibilities of where he could go later in life. The villain is not a classic one. Members of the bat-family pop up a few times."_
> 
> So as expected it is out of DC's continuity and it will be in their Black Label line. That felt like the most obvious place it was going to be or some original graphic novel type of thing.


This is good. While I like Snyder for the most part, on his other part he can be controversial. Zero Year, Bruce's brother, The Court, and Haly's Circus. Experimenting in Black Label first is the right way to do, and omigosh have I not been suggesting they're doing it this way the past year instead of making controversial decisions in the mainline. Then, if it's successful and people like it, it can be applied in the mainline.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Things got personal between Slade and Dick in Post Crisis because when Dick went undercover to get rid of the mob from Bludhaven, he's also tasked to train Deathstroke's daughter Rose. He did, but also instilled some morals into her, which he didn't like, and as revenge, when he was in Villains United, dropped Chemo to nuke Bludhaven. Slade was also on board when hired by Talia to control Damian through the chip in his spine to kill Dick. 
> 
> But that's only the latest of Slade's kids that affected by their relationship with Dick. 
> 
> Before that, Slade respects Dick for old time's sake. When he was hired to kill Bludhaven good cop Amy Rossbach, he dropped by Dick's place to give him a fair chance to stop him. He asked what does it take to get Dick out of the way, and Dick challenged to kill him, which Slade didn't want to do if he doesn't have to. 
> 
> On the other hand, Rebirth Slade was the one asking Dick to teach Rose some morals so she doesn't turn out like him.
> 
> In the show Titans, Slade promised to stop hunting Titans for his son's Jericho's death as long as Titans disbanded. Jericho died protecting Dick from Slade. In the comics, Jericho became Dick's friend and a Titans (before he turned evil but we don't talk about that). 
> ...



I mean Why not have him not care about his kids. He had used Terra to get to the Titans. So that's why I feel like it wouldn't make sense.

----------


## Claude

> This is good. While I like Snyder for the most part, on his other part he can be controversial. Zero Year, Bruce's brother, The Court, and Haly's Circus. Experimenting in Black Label first is the right way to do, and omigosh have I not been suggesting they're doing it this way the past year instead of making controversial decisions in the mainline. Then, if it's successful and people like it, it can be applied in the mainline.


Plus, a neutral continuity Black Label thing is something that can be revisited every couple of years as and when the writer wants - whereas for the most part, and perfectly correctly, once a writer leaves the monthly title they're gone.

It's a good point about continuity, too.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing Annual 3 Preview


https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...twing-annual-3

----------


## Pohzee

Yup, if Johns's Three Joker's story can be fitted into continuity, I hope Snyder's Nightwing story can too.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing Annual 3 Preview
> 
> 
> https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...twing-annual-3


We get stores that are hey this was eighteen months ago, but time and age stays irrelevant????

Also I can’t belive its time for the next annual already

----------


## Digifiend

Wait, so the Ric era lasted *a year* in-universe? Saying six months ago would've made sense.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope after this Dick gets a better team. Any hints of who the new creative team is?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Wait, so the Ric era lasted *a year* in-universe? Saying six months ago would've made sense.


Honestly, 364 1/2 days too many.

----------


## qwazer07

Am I the only one who likes the annual? Everyone I know hates it. Twitter has been a cesspool the past days. Tumblr can't think for themselves. Feels bad man.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Wait, so the Ric era lasted *a year* in-universe? Saying six months ago would've made sense.


Do we know for sure the events of the annual take place right before he got shot?

----------


## qwazer07

Yeah. The issue was a flashback. It happened 18 months ago.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So at first Zack Synder said Jason was the robin that was killed but now he said it's Dick. Maybe for the better

----------


## K. Jones

> Wait, so the Ric era lasted *a year* in-universe? Saying six months ago would've made sense.


Dates and numbers in comics are more reminders for us the readers than ever actually possible or canon. As a short-hand for us in the real world it is pretty effective, but it's a sure sign that all dates and passage in time "mentioned" by a writer in a comic is just arbitrary. Even when it's part of the plot! Like, Long Halloween takes place in "Year Two" of Batman's Batmanning and actually features all of the Holidays. Trying to actually fit it into a real timeline causes more problems than it fixes to even think about. Like every year there's been some Batman Christmas Comic since 1940. But do we really believe that Batman has, during his crime-fighting career, celebrated Christmas 80 times?

What I'm trying to say? The narrator says 18 months ago, and what it basically really means is "a few weeks back". 

Or rather, I'm not sure that we're even meant to find it believable in-story.

I read the Annual. I thought it was the best of what Jurgens has really put out since he picked up this thankless task. I've stuck with Nightwing through these "Ric" storylines not out of slavish devotion because I'm a huge Nightwing fan, but more because I kind of want to document and be aware of the specifics of how something like this goes down and plays out. I've seen it before in comics when a series loses its footing then becomes the victim of another writer's story and gets stuck in hell, but never quite this clearly on a book that sells as well as Nightwing.

 I've historically liked Dick coming up against your sophisticated winged jet armor type bird themed mech guys. Batman always has Bat-Versions of these suits, too. There was the OYL Raptor who also fit this bill. I like that they're a bit of a freelance agency who can go either way storywise. I thought the boss's come-ons were overly strong in a way that's pretty off-putting in this day and age, which actually strikes a nice bit of adventure story sophistication or tension as it juggles Dick's good nature with his sex appeal, and could either tip her off as a villain (she crosses boundaries pretty easily) but could just as easily be used for the swerve because as we all know from the internet ... Dick is a really hot guy and femme fatales jump. They could go multiple routes there into noir plot-lines or spy/espionage plot-lines or whatever other kind of trope or push. Not that they will, most of the contents of Jurgens' run seem like they're not exactly ever going to go anywhere.

It was also nice to see a functional basic "Nightwing, who works in Bludhaven, and Blockbuster is doing things" story existing in the Dixon Paradigm. And the art was decent, with dynamism in the flying and armor, everyone looked right, and what's-her-boss's sexual attraction to Dick was obvious enough that it colors her character choices. The Condor crew are as uninspired as virtually every Condor-themed character in the history of the DCU, and their mech-suits aren't very artful to the point where even the bare modicum of Nightwing-themed color on one of those suits made it pop. Plus we all know Bruce has a closet full of Nightwing-Themed mech-suits in the Bat-Cave just waiting for whatever 1950s Revival Adventure comes along that takes him and Dick to outer space to battle Alien Bat-Men.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So at first Zack Synder said Jason was the robin that was killed but now he said it's Dick. Maybe for the better


He wants carrie kelly robin. i want to barf
[IMG]llhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eapsd8cWoAApW8J?format=jpg&name=medium[/IMG]

----------


## Godlike13

The Annual was such a poor throwback to old Nightwing, but the worse parts. Like those times some unnamed newbie would come into it and make Nightwing look like shit. Reminded me of Wolfmans run with Vigilante. Oh and classic Blockbuster is back as if Seeley’s run, or the end of Dixon's for that matter never happened. The writing here is just bad. The first part of it invalidates everything they then have Nightwing do and say after. Which they can not be unaware of. At one point it has him start bragging how good he is as if the first part of the book where he basically gets killed by 2 gloried goons didn’t just happen. Which is moronic, and so it makes Dick look like a conceited moron who lives in a glass house.  

They need to get Jurgans off this book. This is really bad. There is nothing original. It leans on perceived strengths of yesteryear but has no ambition of its own, while takes for granted its lead to introduce some uninteresting concept that does nothing for its lead. Very frustrating. It was like 20 years since the middle of Dixon’s run never happened or something.

----------


## Restingvoice

Omg they're bringing back long-haired ponytail super buff Dick from the 90s for a Barbarian Nightwing look in Death Metal I kinda dig this type of fanservice because it fits the setting and everyone in this book looks outlandish as heck

EaVGY51XQAAr_5a.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

question does Nick have his own version of the bat boomerang?

----------


## Ascended

> Omg they're bringing back long-haired ponytail super buff Dick from the 90s for a Barbarian Nightwing look in Death Metal I kinda dig this type of fanservice because it fits the setting and everyone in this book looks outlandish as heck


I'm loving all the re-designs for Metal. So over the top and ridiculous, like old 80's-90's music videos!  :Smile:  Rock and metal are my musical genres of choice, so I got a real soft spot for this.

Dick looks like he just got back from some Norwegian death metal concert here, or maybe Heilung (amazing folk-metal viking band).

----------


## Godlike13

> question does Nick have his own version of the bat boomerang?


Wingdings.

----------


## Restingvoice

> question does Nick have his own version of the bat boomerang?


The classic one looks closer to a Batarang
DEC000400_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

I think there's another one that looks like his book logo

The New 52 one is more like a throwing knives

----------


## Dazai_Osamu

The annual was fine but the memory crystal (again) is the most infamous and ridiculous device which has ever been created.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The classic one looks closer to a Batarang
> DEC000400_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
> 
> I think there's another one that looks like his book logo
> 
> The New 52 one is more like a throwing knives


Where does he keep them? I figured like there is a secret compact.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Where does he keep them? I figured like there is a secret compact.


In The New 52 one, his gloves are armored with compartments for various gadgets. 

I don't remember with that particular costume, but there's another costume where there's a circle of Utility-Belt-like cylinders around the hem of his gloves and boots

This is a good close up. There are those pockets
JAN000198_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

----------


## Drako

> In The New 52 one, his gloves are armored with compartments for various gadgets. 
> 
> I don't remember with that particular costume, but there's another costume where there's a circle of Utility-Belt-like cylinders around the hem of his gloves and boots
> 
> This is a good close up. There are those pockets
> JAN000198_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg


His current one doesn't have these. I wish he had this "arm-pockets" instead of those weird belts.

----------


## AmiMizuno

NIghtwing's butt history

----------


## Rac7d*

> NIghtwing's butt history


Hmm she must of missed that recent panel

----------


## Ascended

.....can't tell if talking about Dick's ass is a sign of how bad things are with the character right now......or just business as usual in the fandom......

 :Big Grin:

----------


## AmiMizuno

> .....can't tell if talking about Dick's ass is a sign of how bad things are with the character right now......or just business as usual in the fandom......


A bit of both really.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?

----------


## WonderNight

> How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?


Very rarely! Nightwing has already been reduced down to robin status and people viewing nightwing as a stepping stone to batman. Not his own hero.

----------


## Jcady59

> How often should DIck ever took up the batman mantle?


Not very often in my opinion, as much as I like DickBats is really doesn’t do much for him, it hasn’t risen his profile or importance to the DCU in fact I think it’s done the opposite. Instead of coming off a an equal to the Trinity and the other major members of the league he instead comes off as Bruce’s second string replacement. Ultimately putting on the cowl should be an absolute last resort for Dick not something he would do without hesitation when being Nightwing at that moment would have been just as good.

----------


## Ascended

> Not very often in my opinion, as much as I like DickBats is really doesn’t do much for him, it hasn’t risen his profile or importance to the DCU in fact I think it’s done the opposite. Instead of coming off a an equal to the Trinity and the other major members of the league he instead comes off as Bruce’s second string replacement. Ultimately putting on the cowl should be an absolute last resort for Dick not something he would do without hesitation when being Nightwing at that moment would have been just as good.


This.

You know when Dick should take up the mantle again? 

Never.

It's done nothing but reinforce DC's perception that Dick is only Bat-lite. It does nothing to help establish Dick as his own man, his own hero, or his own IP.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> In The New 52 one, his gloves are armored with compartments for various gadgets. 
> 
> I don't remember with that particular costume, but there's another costume where there's a circle of Utility-Belt-like cylinders around the hem of his gloves and boots
> 
> This is a good close up. There are those pockets
> Attachment 97692


I think it would be nice if they brought that back again. I mean secret compartments. Gives him a element of secret
.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think it would be nice if they brought that back again. I mean secret compartments. Gives him a element of secret
> .


Apparently, in the newer classic costume, his gloves are really fat

JAN040220_1._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
This was the end of Blockbuster arc

Of course, I prefer pockets. This one looks goofy.

----------


## qwazer07

> This.
> 
> You know when Dick should take up the mantle again? 
> 
> Never.
> 
> It's done nothing but reinforce DC's perception that Dick is only Bat-lite. It does nothing to help establish Dick as his own man, his own hero, or his own IP.


Yeah. But DickBats was so good. I will even say he is a better Batman than Bruce. Black Mirror and B&R run was better than any Batman and B&R run post-New52. Dick may be Batman but like Wally he improved his legacy. Dick wasn't a Bat-lite, he was improved Batman. If DC make Nightwing into improved Batman, Dick can truly shine. He is the best parts of Batman and Superman. The greatest leader in the DCU. The Nightwing.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah. But DickBats was so good. I will even say he is a better Batman than Bruce. Black Mirror and B&R run was better than any Batman and B&R run post-New52. Dick may be Batman but like Wally he improved his legacy. Dick wasn't a Bat-lite, he was improved Batman. If DC make Nightwing into improved Batman, Dick can truly shine. He is the best parts of Batman and Superman. The greatest leader in the DCU. The Nightwing.


I agree that Dick's a better character than Bruce, and was a better Batman. Dickbats was great. 

But Dick being Batman doesn't help Dick, it helps Batman. And end of the day Batman will always be Bruce Wayne, whether Bruce is wearing the cowl for a particular story or not. 

Like that new Snyder project? It's great that DC's biggest writer is gonna write Dick, and Snyder writes a pretty damn solid Dick Grayson. I look forward to that story. But if the story has Dick in the Bat cowl, that doesn't help Dick; it doesn't make him a bigger, better character, it doesn't make him more popular or attract new fans to Nightwing. It'll just be a Batman story with someone else in the cowl; a sidekick who stepped up for a second. It'll help Batman, not Nightwing, even though it's not Bruce in the costume. 

And Dick? It'll just reinforce the notion that he's still just a sidekick, working below Batman, waiting to take over the family business instead of being his own man.

I'd really rather just see Dick shipped off to the Super office. Especially while Bendis is still around, I feel like Dick would get treated a lot better there.

----------


## bearman

I wanted to chime in and say how happy I was with how DC treated Dick as Batman. If it was another story about trying to live up to Bruce, it would have a been a boring re tread. Instead, he became his own (Bat)man, smart, solid, and unafraid. It was as good a Batman run as we’ve seen in decades.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Once again maybe it's time for Dick and the bats to slipt for a bit. I don't mean in a falling out. Rather maybe it's time Dick to go on a break from Batman comics. And just be his own thing. Like on Titans or just his own special event

----------


## godisawesome

The thing about DickBats is that it’s an asset and a reinforcement of the value of _Dick Grayson_ as an IP... but it’s not an asset to _Nightwing_ as an IP, so if a prevailing view says that “Batman” is a more powerful IP than Bruce Wayne, but Bruce Wayne is the best IP for Batman’s civilian identity, than it doesn’t help Dick Grayson.

Basically, if/when Dick finally gets the respect he deserves int he larger culture, his time as Batman is an edge and a measurement of his value... but as long as people don’t value Dick Grayson enough, it’s not nearly as much of an asset.

Basically... Dick needs his profile raised even more, likely in movies, and the Nightwing IP itself could use some likewise promotion.

Honestly... I think it might be time to consider something like putting Nightwing on the Justice League instead of Batman, and have him occupy Bruce’s traditional place for a while.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I guess that's why Kori might be a better match since she is outside of the IP of Batman. The thing is Batman been there for so long that it would make no sense for Dick to be on JL. Unless he is on his own branch. They need to have a reason for Dick to be on JL. He is in the TT. So unless he and the TT are going to be a new branch of JL. In a sense, we need to have the TT  prove themselves even more now too. Dick is generally the leader of the group.

----------


## Godlike13

The thing about DickBat was the level of creators he saw as Batman compared to what Nightwing see’s. 

Putting him on the JL isn’t gonna raise him profile. As Dick on the JL is guaranteed to be something that is contained to comics and ultimately superficial. Characters come and go on the JL all the time. Unless your one of the main 7, or a diversity push, it more times then not amounts to very little.

If they want to raise Nightwing’s profile they need to invest into Nightwing more. That means better creators on the character, consistency with the character, and better standards and quality control from editorial. They get what they put in. They certainly didn’t look at bottom charting books like RHatO or Batman Beyond and seriously think that those guys were gonna reignite Nightwing for them. And understand this is on purpose. They are content were Nightwing’s profile is. They are content with having a fodder book that can help carry some of their in house creators or break in new creators. 
Remember Nightwing is perceived as a threat, they have come out and said this, the comic division is not interested in improving Nightwing’s profile. They are though content having a throwaway fodder book that no one high up actually gives a crap how the editors and creators actually perform their job on. As long as it makes print at least.

----------


## Ascended

> The thing about DickBats is that itÂs an asset and a reinforcement of the value of _Dick Grayson_ as an IP... but itÂs not an asset to _Nightwing_ as an IP


That is an excellent way of putting it. 

Anyway, Dick on the League would be....okay. We've seen DC put other characters there, expecting them to become big deals just through the osmosis of being in the League, and it does not work. Just look at Cyborg; DC thought "We put him in the JLA, he's an A-lister! How easy!" But it doesn't work like that; the League doesn't make A-listers, it's where A-listers hang out. 

I feel like putting Dick in the League would be a nice feather in his cap, but would it really achieve much? I feel like Dick would just be seen as a temporary replacement for Bruce.....the understudy. It'd just reinforce the notion that Dick follows in Bruce's footsteps as the loyal soldier. JLA is Bat territory, nothing a writer does with Dick is gonna change that. It'd be great to see Dick hang with the biggest guns, but would it convince people that he should be counted among them?

I think right now, if increasing Dick's profile is the goal then you need a writer who can stick around long term and build a unique world and mythos around Dick that is his, where he is "king." Long term investment. He needs major roles in Events where he has agency, a major impact on the plot, and cool feats on par with the big guns.

But more than anything Dick needs a little bit of a focused push in larger media. Dick's everywhere; cartoons, live action, video games. Dick Grayson appears in larger media more than anyone except probably Bats. But he's never the main focus. He needs to be the star of the show for a change. I believe that one quality effort; a movie or a game (preferably a film), would be enough to get the ball rolling. Success breeds success, so all DC has to do.....is tell a good Nightwing story.

----------


## Digifiend

> I guess that's why Kori might be a better match since she is outside of the IP of Batman. The thing is Batman been there for so long that it would make no sense for Dick to be on JL. Unless he is on his own branch. They need to have a reason for Dick to be on JL. He is in the TT. So unless he and the TT are going to be a new branch of JL. In a sense, we need to have the TT  prove themselves even more now too. Dick is generally the leader of the group.


Dick's last Titans team (which his amnesia forced him out of) actually was part of the Justice League and based out of the Hall of Justice instead of a Titans Tower.

----------


## WonderNight

You're right about dick needing to be a "king" of his own kingdom. One of nightwing's biggest problems that most don't talk about is that is always pushed as supporting character. It's why he doesn't get the top talent or investment form DC. DC invest in lead character's, characters that is or can be the kings or queens of there own world. As long as nightwing as an Ip is batman's first lieutenant, the first prince. he'll never get the investment he needs.

----------


## qwazer07

We know the truth. You are still here after 2 years of Ric.

Pikachu Meme.jpg

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL? What would it be?  Also the more I think about it. With one of the storylines of Dick helping talons and talons in training that's what the T tower could be. They use it to help them. While they use te Hall of Justice or both. If we want him in the JL there should be a good storyline. What would it be?

----------


## Valentonis

I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.

----------


## Pohzee

> I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.


Other than of course the Titans, but apparently that's not too popular here either

----------


## godisawesome

> I know this particular board isn't too Bludhaven friendly, and I do see the flaws in that era, but I will say that it was the first (and only) time that Nightwing really felt like he had his own world and brand imo. Even Grayson, wonderful as it was, kinda hinged on the whole "bat lieutenant" idea of the character.





> Other than of course the Titans, but apparently that's not too popular here either


That era of Nightwing is arguably both his high point in terms of selling the Nightwing IP’s value, but also one that demonstrates where the limits of it *might* be.

Blüdhaven was a fully realized setting, and the book at the time had a full supporting cast, and all of it devoted to Dick as Nightwing. The Titans team were overall recognized as “graduates” who were worthy of comparison with the League in stuff like “The Technis Imperative” - partially a function of the original five members and the TNTT generation being amalgamated into the same franchise, and with Wally being arguably even more the “graduated sidekick“ then Dick and reinforcing their peership through his membership in the League and highly successful run as the main Flash.

But it’s also got Dixon still playing Nightwing very much as Batman’s second instead of his peer, had that generation of Titans somewhat unsupported by editorial before it wound up getting trashed along with Young Justice, and around that time Nightwing’s solo started to fall apart thanks to the problems caused by Devin Grayson having an off day on a “Born Again”-esque story crossing over with War Games right before Dan Didio tried to kill him off in Infinite Crisis.

Basically, the foundation wasn’t necessarily up to snuff for a long term comparison, than it got torched, and the Nightwing IP’s value was clearly undervalued by editorial shortly afterward.

You could tell the “peer-ship” with Bruce was more of a thing that *some* creatives did, and that it wasn’t an editorial thing

----------


## Robanker

The Dixon run is probably why I can never give up on Bludhaven despite it's stupid name.

If I got a hold of Dick? I'd still station him there. I just wouldn't maroon him there. Like Bruce, he'd go on his own adventures globally as well. Play into how connected he is. But his base of operations? Sure, Bludhaven works as well as anywhere else. They just need to make it distinct. Rebirth made it a bit more like Vegas and it absolutely should be. Make it the sleazy, flashy sister city to Gotham. Where Gotham is industrial and a gothic nightmare, Bludhaven is all neon glitz and glamour with a really gross underbelly. It's where Gotham's "finest" go to have a good time. One long, drawn out party that Dick's going to crash.

Everyone hates that place, but I'm convinced it's because it's just too similar to Gotham to wonder why Dick just doesn't stay in Gotham. It can still work. If James Robinson could make *Opal City* feel like someplace I visited with my family as a child, then Bludhaven can work too.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not sure if its hate or more just frustration. Bludhaven can’t make it past one creator before the next one resets it back to default. So it’s hard to expect readers to invest into or champion something like that. There is never ever a pay off with Bludhaven. At some point what it could be gets murdered by the reality of what it is with crap like Ric. They did it after Dixon, and then they did it yet again after Seeley. Bludhaven, and Titans for that matter, pay for DC’s and certain creators mediocrity and inability. And if they continue to do what they are doing, this is what is going to happen to Nightwing himself.

----------


## Fergus

> You're right about dick needing to be a "king" of his own kingdom. One of nightwing's biggest problems that most don't talk about is that is always pushed as supporting character. It's why he doesn't get the top talent or investment form DC. DC invest in lead character's, characters that is or can be the kings or queens of there own world. As long as nightwing as an Ip is batman's first lieutenant, the first prince. he'll never get the investment he needs.


We do talk about it all the time. DC just doesn't get it or likes having their cake and eating it. Hyping his value and status up when it suits them and treating him like another Robin when it suits them or to suit the bat verse story

----------


## Fergus

> Okay. So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL? What would it be?  Also the more I think about it. With one of the storylines of Dick helping talons and talons in training that's what the T tower could be. They use it to help them. While they use te Hall of Justice or both. If we want him in the JL there should be a good storyline. What would it be?


He just joins just like every other member. We don't need a storyline since it'd likely be linked to Bruce in some way. I don't want Dick on the JL since that likely will end up another nail in the Bruce lite coffin the character's currently in.

I really enjoyed Grayson. That was unique but I suppose that wasn't sustainable in the longterm.

Nightwing doesn't need the JL to be 1st tier. He just needs a new creative team with good fresh ideas and dedication from DC.

Synder's pitch is interesting sadly it's just exploration of various stages of the character and not anything that will repair or restore the character.

----------


## Aahz

> So what if to help Dick out more. Dick make his own branch in JL?


Justice League Offshots have usually a very limited success and life time.

----------


## Elmo

is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?

----------


## Frontier

> is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?


I would be surprised if there is not a Nightwing ongoing when DC inevitably relaunches unless they really scale back the line.

----------


## Ascended

> is Dick still going to have an ongoing when Snyder does his black label project?


I would assume so? 

Hard to say though. Lot of stuff happening in the world, lot of stuff happening with DC and the direct market.

But Didio wasn't able to kill the book (I'm sure he would have, had he been able to get away with it) and I don't see Lee succeeding there either, if cancelling Nightwing is even something he wants to do....which I feel like it isn't. World has turned upside down since Didio left but we're already getting at least the hint of better treatment under Lee.

----------


## Badou

He's had a consistent ongoing title since the mid 90s. I would think he would still have his DCU book, but who knows. DC is going through a lot of changes I imagine, and I wouldn't be that surprised if DC shakes things up. I could see them not wanting him to have a competing ongoing with Snyder's Black Label book or just don't think a Nightwing ongoing is worth it anymore. They did just go through two years of dragging the character through garbage and selling it to people in the form of Ric Grayson.

Also it seems that the recent movie news complicates the Nightwing movie even more. I didn't think the movie would happen, but it feels like it got more difficult. The Reeve Batman movies are going to be their own separate thing (not a big surprise) and I can see him going the Nolan route and not wanting to use Robin. So that would eliminate Dick from appearing in those movies, and Dick is already dead in the Zack Snyder movie universe. So that rules him out there. Now it seems with Keaton coming back to play Batman in some mentor-like role and it is rumored they want to focus on Batgirl with that as well. So it seems they skipped over Robin and Nightwing unless they might have them in some kind of supporting role there, but who knows.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Well technically they did say the movies might have retcons. Sucide Movie is having retcons.

----------


## qwazer07

Hahaha! They are replacing DCEU Batman to make him mentor Batgirl or Batman Beyond. Nightwing is skipped or forgotten or killed again. Thank you DC, Warner and AT&T! I'm dead. That's it... I can't handle this anymore. Maybe Dick gets a cameo as a real person. Or another Robin costume with a middle finger sprayed on it. I don't know. I wish I could stop caring...

----------


## yohyoi

> Hahaha! They are replacing DCEU Batman to make him mentor Batgirl or Batman Beyond. Nightwing is skipped or forgotten or killed again. Thank you DC, Warner and AT&T! I'm dead. That's it... I can't handle this anymore. Maybe Dick gets a cameo as a real person. Or another Robin costume with a middle finger sprayed on it. I don't know. I wish I could stop caring...


I feel you. But it's no use being frustrated on things you can't control or change. You should relax by reading a book, watching tv, exercising or playing video games. All things will end up okay in the end. Don't worry. No matter how much they ruin Dick Grayson, there are always old comics to read and enjoy. No one can take that away.

----------


## Godlike13

Eeh, DC's movie plans change on a dime.

----------


## qwazer07

> I feel you. But it's no use being frustrated on things you can't control or change. You should relax by reading a book, watching tv, exercising or playing video games. All things will end up okay in the end. Don't worry. No matter how much they ruin Dick Grayson, there are always old comics to read and enjoy. No one can take that away.


Thanks. I will take a break and watch some tv series I have been planning to watch. There is no use crying on spilled milk  :Big Grin:

----------


## Digifiend

> Dick is already dead in the Zack Snyder movie universe.


What the hell? I knew there was a dead Robin, but I assumed it was Jason, like in the comics.

----------


## Godlike13

Snyders universe is dead so who cares. Its probably good that it was Dick in Snyders universe, as his failed universe will likely live on as a lesson in what not do.

----------


## Drako

Former DC publisher Dan DiDio on the New 52 vs Rebirth and why he 'hated' Wally and Dick

https://www.gamesradar.com/former-dc...ally-and-dick/

----------


## Rac7d*

> Snyder’s universe is dead so who cares. It’s probably good that it was Dick in Snyder’s universe, as his failed universe will likely live on as a lesson in what not do.


The sunset cut succes could change that

Anyway we have titans

----------


## Ascended

Grabbed the stuff relevant to Dick, for the people who don't want to read the whole thing.




> Nrama: You drew a fair amount of fan heat for being the guy who theoretically hated Dick Grayson or Wally West. Is this indeed the case? Or was it just pro wrestling, drawing heel heat?
> 
> DiDio: A lot of it was for show. It was theater. We used to do the conventions and we used to have people worked up about Dick Grayson and Wally West, so we fed into that energy. Anytime I go to a convention and we talk about character, I consider that a win.
> 
> So much of the conversation nowadays is not about character or story anymore, which is a shame, because that's the only conversation that should be taking place.
> 
> For me, Wally West was a core concept issue. My problem with Wally was that his origin was always dependent on [his uncle and previous Flash] Barry Allen. He was never his own character. He was always going to be subservient to Barry in some way because his origin was determined by Barry. There was always a Flash in front of him and his powers were because of him. I always felt, as a true Flash, if we were trying to get to the simplest form with regards to media and things like that, we had to go back to Barry because the story starts with him.
> 
> With [original Robin] Dick Grayson — and this is the same with Wally — people loved them because they aged with them, so they feel this affinity that these guys have grown up with them. The problem is that much like Batman and Superman, now Dick Grayson and Wally West have to stop aging, because they're going to pass their mentors. Dick Grayson's going to get older than Bruce Wayne at some point, because Bruce doesn't age and Dick Grayson's going to be the older guy if he does keep growing up. Therefore, those things constantly force the reboots that we're faced with, because it creates these log jams and these multiple interpretations of characters all sharing the same name.
> ...


I've always agreed that Dick dying in Infinite Crisis (a short term death) was a viable play. His sales weren't as great as they had been, and a six-twelve month break could've been good for him as well as provide quality fuel for the Crisis story. I would've hated Dick dying but it was a viable storytelling option.

But the stuff about Dick aging and how all of Dick's fans love him because they grew up with him? That's raw bullsh*t. That's not even a problem, it's just an excuse.

----------


## Godlike13

> The sunset cut succes could change that
> 
> Anyway we have titans


The Snyder cut isn’t going to change anything. They cleaned house after a JL bombed. They are not gonna repeat the same mistake a 3rd time.

----------


## Ascended

> The Snyder cut isn’t going to change anything. They cleaned house after a JL bombed. They are not gonna repeat the same mistake a 3rd time.


You have more faith in WB than I do then.

Did you see Birds of Prey? The only change WB has made in their movies is that they're now making a few films that *aren't* awful, while still repeating all the mistakes they've been making since Man of Steel.

I fully believe, and am confident in, WB's ability to not learn their lesson.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So far the only lesson is Wonder Woman. They are hiring directors who knew nothing about the characters. I'm not saying you need someone who knows all. I mean Robbie was the one to pick the film. She dropped the project of Gotham Sirens due to wanting black Canary, Caassie and Huntress yet nothing about them look like the characters. She should have stuck with GCS

----------


## Pohzee

The Didio thing is pretty much what we already knew, but him acknowledging more that he was playing it up as a heel.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> The Didio thing is pretty much what we already knew, but him acknowledging more that he was playing it up as a heel.


Ill say this, one thing that benefits Dick that Wally unfortunately suffers from is that modern Dick is a more distinct from modern Bruce than modern Wally is from modern Barry.* Theres so much overlap with Barry and Wally personality wise (both are meant to be everyman) wheres Dick has been written in a way that contrasts Bruces darkness. Plus he has his own codename.
*i like both Barry and Wally, I really do. But I dont envy writers who are going to have to juggle both of them.





> Hahaha! They are replacing DCEU Batman to make him mentor Batgirl or Batman Beyond. Nightwing is skipped or forgotten or killed again. Thank you DC, Warner and AT&T! I'm dead. That's it... I can't handle this anymore. Maybe Dick gets a cameo as a real person. Or another Robin costume with a middle finger sprayed on it. I don't know. I wish I could stop caring...


Good for Babs but yeah I dont see Dick being used in any Patterson or Keaton movies.

----------


## Ascended

> The Didio thing is pretty much what we already knew, but him acknowledging more that he was playing it up as a heel.


I think we all knew he was leaning into it and playing it up when he started posting "Aw, dead Grayson! LOLZ" stuff on social media during movie premiers.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The fact that he hammed it up doesn't excuse the fact that it was bone-head stupid business and he cost the company a lot of potential and actual revenue.....but it's nice to know for certain that he wasn't as crazy about it as he made himself out to be, I guess.

I'd love to sit down with that guy and have a beer. I'd yell at him for letting his bias unduly influence business choices, but he does seem like a really nice dude.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean with Zack Synder's universe pretty much dead. Maybe Dick will have some luck

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean with Zack Synder's universe pretty much dead. Maybe Dick will have some luck


It depends on how batgirl goes

----------


## Ascended

I think it's more likely we'll get a independent Nightwing film than a film connected to a wider continuity. 

But I don't think we're getting a film at all, so.......

First step is likely the Titans show. They're still doing a season 3 right? Make a quality season that shows off how great Nightwing is.....maybe that leads to a solo spin-off or a new show on HBO's streaming service or something. Success breeds success, and all that. We've got plenty of quality Dick Grayson/Nightwing in group settings, and Titans feels like the culmination of that success; a bigger budget effort churned out due to the success of stuff like TTGO!.....so now we just gotta show that Nightwing works as a solo act too. That's not hard, you just gotta get the right attention.

Honestly I don't even want a movie right now anyway. WB would just f**k it up like they have 75% of their other DC movies. I'd rather have no movie at all than a bad one.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If we are lucky I really would want a Nightwing animated movie. If we had to pick any of his older stories which one would make a good Nightwing animated movie?

I don't know if they can make a good Batgirl movie. Wonder Woman did something that I thought would never happen. Only for Birds of Prey to mess it up. It really depends on who they get. The director they pick has to be someone who is good. I know a comic writer doesn't always equal screenwriter but I would like it if a comic writer was brought in to help.

----------


## K7P5V

> If we are lucky I really would want a Nightwing animated movie. If we had to pick any of his older stories which one would make a good Nightwing animated movie?


My choice would definitely be...

*Nightwing: Year One*  :Cool:

----------


## JayPursuits

Anyone read Titans: Titans Forever #1? For the love of god, there’s a Titans comic that treated Dick like a actual leader, competent, and didn’t go out of its way to make everyone look BAD. Jason is even in the book & has a decent dynamic.  It’s a good issue!

----------


## Shadowcat

> My choice would definitely be...
> 
> *Nightwing: Year One*


I miss this look. Say what you will, but its a George Perez exclusive. If its not busy, it wasnt his design.

----------


## Valentonis

The discowing outfit definitely has a real charm to it. Obviously Dick couldn't wear something like that today but it should always be apart of his history.

----------


## L.H.

> Anyone read Titans: Titans Forever #1? For the love of god, there’s a Titans comic that treated Dick like a actual leader, competent, and didn’t go out of its way to make everyone look BAD. Jason is even in the book & has a decent dynamic.  It’s a good issue!


I liked that too, I'm always starving for good Nightwing and Titans story, and that was a breathe of fresh air. Still missing Wally, but good overall and nobody was OOC

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious due to his long history. What are the best and worst things Dick has done?

----------


## Ascended

> I'm curious due to his long history. What are the best and worst things Dick has done?


I dunno if this is the worst thing Dick's done, but in the pulp noir annual he seduces a woman and marries her as part of an investigation. I forget the details, I think she had been married to a mob guy who got killed.....I can't recall, but she had gone through a rough patch and Dick used that to work his way into her life. Stone cold. 

He never sleeps with her, and I can't decide if that makes it worse or better. I mean, sleeping with her under false pretenses is pretty damn awful but think how wrecked that poor girl is; she went through the original trauma that put her in Dick's crosshairs, has legit feelings for him, and then endures the stress of wondering why her boyfriend/new husband isn't even interested enough in her to share a bed. She's just a ball of anxiety and depression by the end, and a lot of it was caused by Dick.

----------


## L.H.

Well, he thought she was a serial killer (both her husbands died soon after the wedding in accidents), so decided to marry her and found out the truth. There are plenty of stories with the same plot, plus it was written by Devine Grayson, so he wasn't exactly on character. 
A lot of people hate what he did in the Annual #2, when he slept with Barbara just before telling her that he was going to marry Kory... that was awful, seriously, but OOC again. 
Probably the wrost thing, imo, was killing the Joker. 
The best? He helped a lot of people, giving them a new path and purpouse: I'm thinking about Damian, Rose and even Bruce.

----------


## Lazurus33

How Nightwing Evolved into DC’s Greatest Hero

https://nerdist.com/article/nightwin...greatest-hero/

----------


## Claude

> The discowing outfit definitely has a real charm to it. Obviously Dick couldn't wear something like that today but it should always be apart of his history.


I used to be very over-serious about it, but these days I sort of think that a Dick Grayson outfit that doesn't look a little flamboyant and showy is missing a key part of Dick Grayson.

----------


## Valentonis

> I used to be very over-serious about it, but these days I sort of think that a Dick Grayson outfit that doesn't look a little flamboyant and showy is missing a key part of Dick Grayson.


I agree, his current blue stripe look is simple and iconic and I love it, but I always felt like it was a little too "gotham" if that makes any sense. I feel like modern nightwing doesn't gel as well visually with the rest of the Titans compared to the classic look. Imo the perfect Nightwing outfit would essentially be a modernized discowing.

----------


## Ascended

I still think the "black suit with blue bird emblem" costumes are the best. You have the now classic blue-black color scheme, you have a logo you can slap on merchandise, you can include a lot of detail (like Young Justice, Arkham games) or slim it down completely (Timmverse) without losing the overall design, and it's easy to draw while also standing out from the rest of the cape-n-cowls crowd. 

The original Dixon era chevron is my absolute favorite Nightwing costume, and it's just as flexible as the one with the logo (Titans live action, direct-to-DvD cartoons), but Dick needs an emblem for marketing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea. I don't like that they took away the bird. Didn't he have gliders in one era?

----------


## Ascended

> Yea. I don't like that they took away the bird. Didn't he have gliders in one era?


He did, I think it was the yellow and blue early 90's costume?

I'd very much like to get the glider back, I don't know why it was taken away in the first place.

----------


## Drako

Today's Batman: Gotham Nights had a short story about Dick and Jason teaming up to solve a murder. Pretty good.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Today's Batman: Gotham Nights had a short story about Dick and Jason teaming up to solve a murder. Pretty good.


Jason, Dick, Chemo, and Bludhaven. Deliberate call back?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Today's Batman: Gotham Nights had a short story about Dick and Jason teaming up to solve a murder. Pretty good.


How was their dynamic?

----------


## Godlike13

> Today's Batman: Gotham Nights had a short story about Dick and Jason teaming up to solve a murder. Pretty good.


Eeh, i didn't love it. The first story wasn't bad, but the team up. Ya, i don't know. Im pretty over the serious Batman Jr. plus insert character to tell him how serious he is and/or how he's not Batman. It is one of the most base and boring default takes on the character, and just sucks all the charm out of the character.

----------


## Drako

> How was their dynamic?


Dick's the serious one and Jason is his same old self. It has some good back and forth between the two. Not what you would want, but respectful of both characters, i think.




> Eeh, i didn't love it. The first story wasn't bad, but the team up. Ya, i don't know. Im pretty over the serious Batman Jr. plus insert character to tell him how serious he is and/or how he's not Batman. It is one of the most base and boring default takes on the character, and just sucks all the charm out of the character.


It's nothing great, but at least nothing offensive either. For a random comic book like this, i kinda liked. At this point i just take what i can get.

----------


## Godlike13

Hey, that’s fair.

----------


## AmiMizuno

A article was wrote about it

https://www.cbr.com/batman-gotham-ni...mpression=true

What do you guys think? The two of them teaming up more often ?

----------


## Godlike13

Not if Dick has to play the boring straight man.

----------


## Rakiduam

> A article was wrote about it
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/batman-gotham-ni...mpression=true
> 
> What do you guys think? The two of them teaming up more often ?


No thank you, it's never fun.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Not if Dick has to play the boring straight man.


This, it's like whenever they team up Dick suddenly forgets that he has a sense of humor.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This, it's like whenever they team up Dick suddenly forgets that he has a sense of humor.


True the batboys together become the ninja turtle with the exception of Dick and Damian

----------


## SiegePerilous02

No more Jason in Dick's orbit please.
Few other things save Ric or Bludhaven would turn me off to a Nightwing book faster

----------


## dropkickjake

Hard no. Dick and Jason work best as rivals.

----------


## Ascended

> Hard no. Dick and Jason work best as rivals.


Damn straight. 

I mean, I know Dick is a Titan and Titans deal with betrayal and forgiveness like it's going out of style but I feel like there's only so many times someone can shoot a bazooka at you and your adopted family before you stop trusting them.

----------


## Drako

You guys think DC is going to reveal what's next for Nightwing in this month solicitations? 

We know October issue of Red Hood is the last one Lobdell is writing and looks like the current Batgirl run is coming to a end too (October is also her 50th issue). 

Looks like the bat tittles are all going to be relaunch.

----------


## Godlike13

I think this month solic with show 75 will be the end, then probably when Metal gets mid way they’ll announce whatever. I also think the JL tie in is to hold people over, and not bring Dick back only to have him disappear for months.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think this month solic with show 75 will be the end, then probably when Metal gets mid way they’ll announce whatever. I also think the JL tie in is to hold people over, and not bring Dick back only to have him disappear for months.


I still want Snyder to do his Black Label Nightwing book so badly, but we probably have to wait until a few months after Death Metal is over for that  :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

That’s still in pitch faze. We’ll be lucky to see that by end of next year.

----------


## Robanker

The only Dick/Jason dynamic I enjoy is one where Dick is genuinely trying to be a cool brother figure to Jason, but given how naturally talented he is and how effortlessly he makes things look, Jason can't help but resent him for being so goddamn good at everything; Dick is that cool older brother that's better than you at so many things and you feel bad for resenting him because he's, well, a good dude. He reminds Jason of his shortcomings and has him forget his strengths, so he likes to do things that will annoy Dick.

Absolutely two brothers who will never get along for long, which can probably work for an arc, but not an ongoing. It works best in doses.

----------


## Digifiend

> You guys think DC is going to reveal what's next for Nightwing in this month solicitations? 
> 
> We know October issue of Red Hood is the last one Lobdell is writing and looks like the current Batgirl run is coming to a end too (October is also her 50th issue). 
> 
> Looks like the bat tittles are all going to be relaunch.


Except for Detective Comics, yeah, it does. I'm thinking it'll be a linewide relaunch though, as Supergirl, Terrifics, and Shazam are all either over or ending soon, and Teen Titans also looks like it's nearly over (it's lost a member and is about to lose another, with no replacements in sight and leaving a roster of just four). The Justice League books are obviously relaunching too.

----------


## Ascended

I think we're definitely getting a fresh launch after Metal 2. That's supposed to fix the continuity now right? Seems like a natural choice to put some books on hold during the series then start them back up afterwards with either legacy numbering or a fresh #1 (depending on if the legacy numbering would look impressive enough). Same kind of thing we've seen DC do for decades. 

I'm fine with Nightwing taking a few months off, if that's the case. As long as he comes back after Metal 2 with a new, quality creative team and good comics.

----------


## Pohzee

I would MUCH rather Dick sit unpublished until someone good comes along than get stuck with mediocre creators indefinitely.

----------


## Godlike13

Creatively I agree, but from a marketing perspective it’s not the best move. After 2 year of Ric, that has lead to absolutely nothing postitive except for the prospect of Nightwing’s return. To bring him back, only to then do nothing for months on end, wastes any potential marketing momentum his return might have. 

Plus let’s be honest with ourselves, odds are they’d make Dick sit unpublished only to still just slap on the most convenient mediocre creators they can find. Like Titans Hunt/Rebirth Titans for example.

----------


## Ascended

> Creatively I agree, but from a marketing perspective its not the best move. After 2 year of Ric, that has lead to absolutely nothing postitive except for the prospect of Nightwings return. To bring him back, only to then do nothing for months on end, wastes any potential marketing momentum his return might have.


I agree that Dick coming back only to disappear for a few months is damn bad business and wastes his return. But his solo book is being bypassed anyway. His head wound didn't happen in Nightwing, his return isn't happening in Nightwing......and while doing all this in Batman's book puts more eyes on Nightwing in theory, all it really does is reinforce the idea that he's just a sidekick with no value as a solo IP. That's far worse business than putting the Nightwing comic on the shelf for a minute during a big continuity shuffling Event. 

I mean come on, these are/should be big moments in the character's narrative....and they're not even happening in his own comic. The Nightwing book isn't being used to generate any hype or interest, DC is just ignoring it while letting everything important play out in Bruce's book. And that's been happening for ages now.

And it looks like Dick will be leading a JL arc during Metal 2, so even if the solo is put on hiatus for a while Dick will still be around.

They put Nightwing's book on hiatus and all we'll miss out on are more bad Jurgens stories. That's a gain as far as I'm concerned. There is such a thing as bad press and the Nightwing comic has been nothing but bad press for years now. 

If DC had a gods damn clue, none of this would be happening the way it is. But they're f*cking incompetent and at this point, it'll do Dick more good to have his comic put on hold while Metal 2 plays out. Dick will be showing up in JL, the solo is a worthless pile of crap, and it might give DC the chance to put together a good creative team that can re-launch Dick's solo using the hype and momentum of Metal 2, Dick's return, role in JL, new creators & direction, and probably the new continuity Metal 2 will likely usher in. 

It's a sad state of affairs but the solo isn't helping Dick at all, so removing it *temporarily* does nothing but save Dick from some crap stories. 

DC, if you're reading this.....just give me the gods damn book. Let me edit and/or write it and dictate what is done with Dick Grayson. Y'all clearly don't give a sh*t, and I'll do it for the smallest fee you're legally allowed to offer. Seriously, it's damn near impossible to do a worse job than you already have; give me the book and you can earn a little goodwill on the idea of giving a fan a shot at the big leagues and save a little cash from my super-low salary. I promise you, within a year I'll have Dick selling twice what he currently is. Give me three years and I'll make him Top 25. Fellow poster Dropkick has read the first draft of a script I wrote; he'll tell you that, at a bare minimum, I'm no worse than Jurgens or Lobdell has been and I'll charge you less.

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

Hey I’m at the point id rather they kill Dick off as Ric. I’m not saying they shouldn’t kill the book, it needs to die. In my opinion as it is it shouldn’t even be on the selves, and everyone involved should honestly be ashamed of themselves that they actually release it, but I’d let it die with Ric. Rather then have it waste a return by having him come at the very end, and then just have him randomly wonder off somewhere for months till they eventually figure out something to do when its most convenient for them.
 But its probably more important the new Batman team get some pandering points, then actually building any momentum or ground for Nightwing itself.

----------


## Ascended

I feel ya, but I don't think it actually matters right now. Jurgens is still gonna be on 75 right? And all the important crap is happening elsewhere, so....it doesn't really matter what the solo does at this point. Virtually nobody is reading it anyway. You're right that it is a waste, but....what *hasn't* been a waste at this point?

Far as I'm concerned the current title and the next few months until Metal 2 ends are just....whatever. When the Event is done and all the presumed continuity BS is finished, that's what I'm waiting for. Will DC give us a decent creator and stop treating Dick like a f*cking sidekick and try to capitalize on his popularity and impressive larger media profile? Or will they keep screwing us and shooting themselves in the foot and leaving money on the table?

I feel like we have reason to have a little bit of hope that things will change under Lee. But I don't think we have reason to think that we're in the clear, either. Nowhere close. Once Metal 2 wraps, I think we'll see what DC under Lee will really look like; that's what I'm waiting for.

----------


## WonderNight

Currently nightwing is a over glorified sidekick whose main story's are driven by the batman book. That's why I believe it's time for nightwing to move to a new home because nightwing needs his independence from batman and the bat mythos in order for growth.

My fear for post metal 2 is DC goes with the same old same old not just for nightwing but the team books aswell. The same teams with the same rosters with the same relationships. Straight BORING!

----------


## AmiMizuno

If you had to pick the writers who would you pick?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Currently nightwing is a over glorified sidekick whose main story's are driven by the batman book. That's why I believe it's time for nightwing to move to a new home because nightwing needs his independence from batman and the bat mythos in order for growth.
> 
> My fear for post metal 2 is DC goes with the same old same old not just for nightwing but the team books aswell. The same teams with the same rosters with the same relationships. Straight BORING!


Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking


Really the only way would be something happening and Dick and the Bats take a break

----------


## Restingvoice

> Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking


This is more of a matter of editorial divisions than the story

What led to Dick being transferred to NTT department again?

----------


## Ascended

> This is more of a matter of editorial divisions than the story


Exactly. Dick has already left not only Gotham, but the entire Bat editorial group.

And he'd probably be much better off if he did again. The Bat office isn't using him to his potential and everything that matters with him is happening in other books, so what's the damn point? Send him to the JL or Super office, maybe the people there will appreciate him and treat him right!

And the Titans are Dick's family as well. It's not just the Bats. And Dick also has that super well known "uncle" over in Metropolis too.

----------


## Claude

> Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking


I get on very well with my family, for the most part. I live in a different city, and am capable of doing my day job without constantly running into them. 

Likewise, when I do see them, very few people ask which of my brothers is the Heart and which is the Brain. 

Dick should be capable of being a fully independent entity without there being some contrived reason for him not having his tea at Wayne Manor. It's part of being an adult. 

On the other hand, if he *is* still viewed as a sidekick - we need better "Dick The Sidekick" stories. Bruce and Dick are the classic comic book double act, with a long history and a rich dynamic - and they're inherently associated with each other. But when was the last story where Bruce and Dick actually teamed up, rather than one making a cameo in the other's book?

----------


## WonderNight

> Home is where your family is and Dick Grayson won’t leave his family so it is impossible to ever have what your asking


That's that's Bruce's family, where Bruce is the head not dick. Part of growing up is moving the hell out and starting a family of your own.

But if family is important for Nightwing than can someone explain to me what the heck was the new52 teen titans?

DC had no problem of moving nightwing on that "family".
Nightwing is like the character angel from buffy a great supporting character but wouldn't have ever reached his potential without getting his own show and independence.

But nightwing wouldn't get his independence so nothing going to change for him so I don't care anymore.

----------


## WonderNight

> Exactly. Dick has already left not only Gotham, but the entire Bat editorial group.
> 
> And he'd probably be much better off if he did again. The Bat office isn't using him to his potential and everything that matters with him is happening in other books, so what's the damn point? Send him to the JL or Super office, maybe the people there will appreciate him and treat him right!
> 
> And the Titans are Dick's family as well. It's not just the Bats. And Dick also has that super well known "uncle" over in Metropolis too.


 Right what is the damn point! 
Is nightwing in the bat office just to be there? Outside of being fodder for batman, more will they won't they with babs and some interacting with Damian from time to time. What is nightwing gaining from the bat office again? 

And as far as family goes isn't dick closer to characters like superman, wally, donna and starfire than he is with 90% of his "batfamily".

Fans overrated how close the batfamily is and act like dick grow up with most of them. The members of the batfamily dick grow up with were just bruce and alfred. Dick didn't meet babs until he was in his mid teens. The rest of the batfamily dick didn't even meet until he was already a grown adult.

The characters that dick did grow up with were Titans like Wally and Donna and Leaguers like Superman. Batfamily is overrated!

----------


## Vordan

> If you had to pick the writers who would you pick?


Matt Fraction, Chip Zdarsky, or hell, maybe even Bendis.

----------


## Godlike13

Playing that game makes sad  :Frown: . 90% of names are creators not even in the ball park of what we actually end up seeing.

----------


## Badou

As bad as the Batman family is I'd rather he stay in it than go back to the Titans. The Titans as a franchise has been an unmitigated disaster for nearly 2 decades. Maybe outside of the Johns era team they have been completely irrelevant. The single best thing that happened to Dick as a character in my opinion in the last 25 or so years was becoming a solo character and not having to rely on the Titans. Since it shielded him from their collapse. Branching off from the Titans and even ending his romance from Starfire was the correct move in my opinion given how those characters and franchise imploded. Sure, the Batman family has many issues and I wish things where better there, but it scares me to think about how bad off Dick's character would possibly be if he never became a solo character. He probably would have been killed off like so many of the other original Titans and written out from even more stories.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's that's Bruce's family, where Bruce is the head not dick. Part of growing up is moving the hell out and starting a family of your own.
> 
> But if family is important for Nightwing than can someone explain to me what the heck was the new52 teen titans?
> 
> DC had no problem of moving nightwing on that "family".
> Nightwing is like the character angel from buffy a great supporting character but wouldn't have ever reached his potential without getting his own show and independence.
> 
> But nightwing wouldn't get his independence so nothing going to change for him so I don't care anymore.


If Nightwing starts a family of his own then Bruce is old  and thats a no no

Just like how supergirl will be 17 forever

----------


## Pohzee

This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left? 

To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.

----------


## Godlike13

> As bad as the Batman family is I'd rather he stay in it than go back to the Titans. The Titans as a franchise has been an unmitigated disaster for nearly 2 decades. Maybe outside of the Johns era team they have been completely irrelevant. The single best thing that happened to Dick as a character in my opinion in the last 25 or so years was becoming a solo character and not having to rely on the Titans. Since it shielded him from their collapse. Branching off from the Titans and even ending his romance from Starfire was the correct move in my opinion given how those characters and franchise imploded. Sure, the Batman family has many issues and I wish things where better there, but it scares me to think about how bad off Dick's character would possibly be if he never became a solo character. He probably would have been killed off like so many of the other original Titans and written out from even more stories.


Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then. 

Personally speaking im starting to revalue what i thought i would want with Nightwing. Like im a Dixon guy, that was my entry point, so i always valued his solo. But im coming to the point where im even questioning that. Solo Nightwing is in a rut (even before Ric), Titans is a halfway house and pretty much a non starter when it comes to current comics, the JL to me would just be him further emulating Batman, Grayson was great but even that i think that ship has sailed and now it would be like going backwards, and Ric was just ignorant and insulting. Im glad its ending, but at the same time im not particularly excited that he's probably coming back just to fall back into his old usual.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay, how do we do that? Why should the TT be taken seriously? My idea is that something happened to the JL and the TT has to feel that hole. In this forum, we have come up with ideas. What are yours? 

I mean so far many of us said he should keep Bludhaven and be acrobat or circus at the strip. That a lot of times the circus will go travel and Dick recuses young Talons from being taken or at least tries to deprogram them. Even saves them to TT or let them be in the circuses life

----------


## Zaresh

Relatively on topic.

I will forever recommend to anyone who want to know anything about the titans the Wolfman/Perez run. Old stuff, but good old.

Bye! (vanishes like a good ninja)

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Relatively on topic.
> 
> I will forever recommend to anyone who want to know anything about the titans the Wolfman/Perez run. Old stuff, but good old.
> 
> Bye! (vanishes like a good ninja)


What could be used to help out the Titans now? Any story ideas? Sometimes the best way to get things back is to go to the past.

----------


## Zaresh

> What could be used to help out the Titans now? Any story ideas? Sometimes the best way to get things back is to go to the past.


Regardless of how old and visited it is, there's still stuff you can use or consider, I think.
First of all, they had their own identity as a group. They weren't just a rip off of the JL, like Tim's team, for example. Even when some of them were sidekicks.
They had a healthy balance between teen drama and action/adventure.
They had their own villains and arguably their own plots and support cast.
And they had an overarc that was very selfcontained, I think, for a while at least.

But I was mostly, shamelesly trying to catch readers who would enjoy a read I did enjoy myself. I do the same for JLI when the chance arises xD.

----------


## Badou

> This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left? 
> 
> To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.


I don't think it changed much in the end since he was still involved in the Titans books after he became a solo character and moved back to Batman editorial. The quality of their stories just were very poor back then, and how DC looked at their franchises changed with the Titans becoming less important to them until Johns revived it when he changed focus to Tim's generation. 




> Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then. 
> 
> Personally speaking im starting to revalue what i thought i would want with Nightwing. Like im a Dixon guy, that was my entry point, so i always valued his solo. But im coming to the point where im even questioning that. Solo Nightwing is in a rut (even before Ric), Titans is a halfway house and pretty much a non starter when it comes to current comics, the JL to me would just be him further emulating Batman, Grayson was great but even that i think that ship has sailed and now it would be like going backwards, and Ric was just ignorant and insulting. Im glad its ending, but at the same time im not particularly excited that he's probably coming back just to fall back into his old usual.


Probably not because I don't know what even a Hickman could do, but obviously I wouldn't say no to him or another big writer wanting to write them. The Batman franchise will always be DC's most important franchise. So even if the situation is far from perfect, and I wish he was used better there, I don't have to worry about the Batman franchise collapsing like with the Titans.

I've repeated it so much now, but at its core the Titans franchise is a team about young heroes. Once those young heroes age into adults and you have generations of heroes behind them now they lose that core identity of what the Titans are. It's a fundamental problem. How do these adult Titan characters fit into this team that is built around being young heroes? I've never seen anyone come up with a real answer. It's always just having them continue doing what they always have where they continue to get treated like young heroes despite being adults where they relive the nostalgia of their past teams, have them just become mentors to the actual young Titans characters which takes away agency from the adults and puts it on the young heroes to be the driving force of the franchise, or just have them operate as a Justice League-lite team. None of those really seem to fix the core issues.

But I don't know what the answer is either. The Titans in other media are as big as they have ever been. You have a live action Titans show going into its 3rd season, you have the Teen Titans GO cartoon which is probably CN's most successful cartoon where it even produced a TTGO movie, you have the Young Justice cartoon which was revived and uses a lot of Titans elements, and there is even rumors of the original TT cartoon being revived as well. You have all this success in other media but none of it is reflected back to the comics. We just had Abnett's Titans book which I still stand by was the worst written Dick Grayson I have ever read, even above Ric, so I really don't know what needs to be done to fix it. I'm at the point where I'd rather have Dick join the JL even if it is a lesser role and have him slowly work his way up the ranks there with all the problems that brings instead of throwing him in another Titans book.

----------


## Ascended

> This may be an overstatement of Dick's importance, but could it be possible that the Titans franchise would not be in the dire straits that it is right now if Dick had never left? 
> 
> To be fair, it was floundering when he left, but is it possible that it could have seen a resurgence with the right creative team rather than having lost its focus- being drawn between both younger heroes and also Dick's generation, not really satisfying either party.


I don't think Dick's presence would have saved anything. Wolfman ran out of road long before he actually left and DC had no clue how to go forward, or even who and what the Titans were supposed to be. If Dick had stayed in the Titans editorial he just would have gone down with the ship.

That's no reason to keep him in the Bat office now, thirty-ish years later however.




> Hypothetically speaking, what if they were serious about pushing the Titans and making them prominent again? Which i know is not the case, but lets say someone like Hickman is coming on Titans and gonna do his thing. Would you then be ok if he went back to the Titans exclusively then.


Exclusively as in no solo? No, I wouldn't be cool with that. I want Dick to stand on his own as a IP, which he can and has done before and can do again. And yes, he was basically a solo act back in the Dixon days. Part of the Bat clan, but he'll always be part of that family. He still had his own setting, supporting cast, and villains, and important stuff that happened to Nightwing actually happened in the pages of NIGHTWING! He was a solo act then, and there's no reason he can't be again.

Now, I wouldn't argue if DC got serious about the Titans, re-opened their editorial group (Titans don't have their own anymore right?), and sent Dick there where he would headline his solo as well as lead the team in the Titans book. I'd be completely fine with that. 

That said, I'm not really hyped about the Titans idea either. Yes, a good creator with a smart idea could come in and revitalize the franchise. OR they could do something new and different, let the characters move on and grow, and see what that looks like.

That's what I'd like to see. Dick's in his mid 20's, maybe even inching up on 30. What's the next phase of his life look like? What's the next step for Dick Grayson? You answer that, and you have a direction to take him. But you gotta answer those questions first. I have answers I like.....but that's just fan fiction. Unless DC takes me up on my offer to take over the character for almost no money we'll never see it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Pohzee

If Dick gives up his solo to go to the Titans, then the Titans writer has full reign to make changes to the character and do more with him than Abnett did. Given that Dick is arguably the most important Titan, I think it would drastically improve the book. Would it be better for Dick? I think so. It'd take him in a more interesting direction than back to C-list solo stories in Blüdhaven.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean if we look at YJ Dick did have his own Solo adventures while also being in the team. So if we go with that maybe he should be in case of emergency or just goes on missions with them even now and them. Dick's history with the Titans is also important. So there should be a balance.

----------


## Pohzee

Dick was for a time a character defined by his change and growth, and I think we can all agree that right now his biggest issue is stagnation. Reading Mister Miracle, an odd thought that I had was that it would've been nice for Dick to have taken that next step. A mature story about him adapting to fatherhood. But obviously that story has been told and it could never happen because that would definitely start to age Bruce up quite rapidly.

----------


## Godlike13

Between Wally and Roy, even Donna, I feel like we have seen that with his generation before. Though I agree with what your getting at. When he was raising Damian I think that was a clever maturation. Familiar yet different. 

I do think you are touching on something though, how do you build on Dick’s maturation going forward. With the catch that you don’t want to age the world, and don’t want to just do the same thing that was done with those around him. Cause I’m sorry but that’s boring.

----------


## Pohzee

I know its been discussed on here before to generally mixed reception, but the only thing that really comes to mind is taking on a sidekick (Damian or otherwise) or taking a mentorship role by expanding the Titans X-Men style. 

There's some obvious hangups, both ideas have already been explored to some degree, such as with Damian, and it also runs the risk of making Dick take the backseat in his own title to develop new or younger characters. But I feel as though a natural progression for the DCU's first sidekick would be to take on one of his own. The previously mentioned pitfalls could be avoided by careful writing to keep the focus on Dick. To make the stories a reflection of his own time as a sidekick, using his insights and experiences to guide his teaching methods. Everyone before Dick started this as independently as an adult- he is the first one to have grown up in this universe. He can empathize with the frustrations of sidekicks, and could perhaps better gauge their capabilities and manage their frustrations. Focusing on this insight as well as contrasting his mentorship versus the mentorship that he received from Batman could keep the focus on Dick.

There's some other obvious potential benefits that have been discussed to this, such as building up the Nightwing brand. Throw the kid on the Teen Titans or Young Justice to build the presence of Nightwing in the universe alongside Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. Have Damian express insecurities about feelings of jealousy and replacement if Dick takes on a new sidekick.

Better or more ideas are welcome of course. He could buy a house and get a mortgage or something.

----------


## Restingvoice

I always support giving Damian to Dick if the Bat title isn't gonna do anything with him

----------


## Ascended

> I do think you are touching on something though, how do you build on Dick’s maturation going forward. With the catch that you don’t want to age the world, and don’t want to just do the same thing that was done with those around him. Cause I’m sorry but that’s boring.


You do it by focusing on Dick, not the people *around* him.

The next step of Dick's maturation doesn't have to mean he gets married, has a kid, and buys a house in the suburbs. It can mean Dick taking on a unique role in the hero community, stepping up his game to play a larger role against more important threats, establishing stable career. Or any number of things. The Grayson series gave us a taste of what the "next step evolution" could look like, as has Young Justice season 3, but it doesn't necessarily have to be either "super spy" or "hunter of metahuman trafficking."

So, something like Dick becoming the owner of Haly's Circus/Casino/Civic Center and focusing on taking down organized crime rings around the world or hunting down corruption within business and/or politics? That would be the "next step maturation" we're talking about, without Dick having to become a father or get married or anything else that makes him "look older." 

If the NTT were college, then Dick now should be that "young hotshot professional" who's setting his industry on fire with bold, brave new thinking and big risks. The guy who has enough experience to be comfortable and competent at the job but isn't part of the old guard.

----------


## WonderNight

> You do it by focusing on Dick, not the people *around* him.
> 
> The next step of Dick's maturation doesn't have to mean he gets married, has a kid, and buys a house in the suburbs. It can mean Dick taking on a unique role in the hero community, stepping up his game to play a larger role against more important threats, establishing stable career. Or any number of things. The Grayson series gave us a taste of what the "next step evolution" could look like, as has Young Justice season 3, but it doesn't necessarily have to be either "super spy" or "hunter of metahuman trafficking."
> 
> So, something like Dick becoming the owner of Haly's Circus/Casino/Civic Center and focusing on taking down organized crime rings around the world or hunting down corruption within business and/or politics? That would be the "next step maturation" we're talking about, without Dick having to become a father or get married or anything else that makes him "look older." 
> 
> If the NTT were college, then Dick now should be that "young hotshot professional" who's setting his industry on fire with bold, brave new thinking and big risks. The guy who has enough experience to be comfortable and competent at the job but isn't part of the old guard.


All dick really needs is for DC to focus on these 3 basic concepts for nightwing.

1) His independence. DC needs to start having nightwing feel like he's his own hero. Not a supporting character, sidekick, adult Robin or substitute Batman.

2) His relativince. Nightwing needs to start feeling relative and impactful to the greater dcu, like he has high status in the hero community.

3) His mission. Nightwing needs a stable long term direction. One the fits dicks character and allow nightwing to stand apart from batman. No batman lite. Something like nightwing is the globetrotting action hero and batman is the city based detective. Nightwing and Batman needs to be different concepts as different as Dick is form Bruce and not two different generations of the samething.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I know its been discussed on here before to generally mixed reception, but the only thing that really comes to mind is taking on a sidekick (Damian or otherwise) or taking a mentorship role by expanding the Titans X-Men style.


I like that direction for the Titans franchise, whether Dick is a part of it or not, but it would be very difficult to keep it from feeling derivative. 


As for a sidekick, I really don't think the pushback against it is as well thought out as it pretends to be. Sure, a bad a writer or a writer who doesn't care about Dick could use the sidekick to do sideline Dick, but I don't think that's a greater risk than the same bad writer trying to spend time developing a new villain they like at the expense of Dick or phoning in their issues. Bad writers will write poorly. 

As for candidates... I've always been partial to Lor Zod, or maybe a main universe Val Zod. Depower them a little, say to Superboy from YJ levels. Boom. Dick training a kryptonian... I dig it.

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

What about Dick gaining a partner? Not romantically but a crime-fighting one? 

I'd suggest Flamebird because DC's not doing anything with her and we could have another former Titans member

----------


## dropkickjake

> What about Dick gaining a partner? Not romantically but a crime-fighting one? 
> 
> I'd suggest Flamebird because DC's not doing anything with her and we could have another former Titans member


Dick definitely works best when he has a partner of some sort. The Grayson series really benefited from this, first with Helena and later Tiger. I think that a sidekick/protege works best, but I think a partner who is a little bit closer to an equal would work as well. What is clear to me is that he needs to be the senior partner, either with a sidekick who is clearly his junior or with a partner who is capable in their own right but ultimately takes their lead from Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What about Dick gaining a partner? Not romantically but a crime-fighting one? 
> 
> I'd suggest Flamebird because DC's not doing anything with her and we could have another former Titans member


lol he already has a crime fighting partner

----------


## Ascended

> All dick really needs is for DC to focus on these 3 basic concepts for nightwing.


For the broad stroke basics, absolutely. 

I also made a list of traits that every A-list property checks off, and DC doing something like that for Dick, seeing where his mythos is weak and putting in some work to fix that and fill in those blanks, would go a long way towards a self-sustaining Nightwing as well.

----------


## Digifiend

> lol he already has a crime fighting partner


You mean Batgirl?

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

> You mean Batgirl?


I think that's what they mean. She's not exactly a partner. They live in separate cities and are more occasional allies who are romantically involved.

----------


## byrd156

Jumping back on the thread for the first time in forever. Any thing new with Dick? Is he still Ric at this point?

----------


## AmiMizuno

He did have Rose that he trained. However, we need to have a storyline where it changes locations. Yea he is living in Bludhaven but he needs to travel. Maybe if we take YJ. young heroes are being taken and he uses Haley Cirucs's as a cover

----------


## Godlike13

> Jumping back on the thread for the first time in forever. Any thing new with Dick? Is he still Ric at this point?


Not really. He’s still Ric, but the end is near. For Ric and his book.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope they stop repeating this. What stories are you all hoping for? Also if we have to what should be the guidelines in Dick being used in Batman and other Batfam books?

----------


## Godlike13

Good ones.

----------


## Digifiend

> Not really. Hes still Ric, but the end is near. For Ric and his book.


No he's not. When Joker brainwashed him in the most recent issue of Nightwing, that was the end of Ric. Solicits indicate that Babs will undo what Joker did, and at the same time restore his true self. So yes, he'll be his old self soon!

----------


## Digifiend

Who wants a copy of Star Spangled Comics #65 from 1947, which has a solo Robin feature?
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dick...ies-from-1947/

----------


## Restingvoice

> I hope they stop repeating this. What stories are you all hoping for? Also if we have to what should be the guidelines in Dick being used in Batman and other Batfam books?


I don't know what kind of story I want because I haven't been around long enough to see the kind of story I like... from a solo Nightwing

Him hanging around Bruce, Jason, Damian and Titans I already know what role I like but that's him as a supporting cast/guest star/team member

Him alone, I've only liked one-two things: 

The setup that he likes to be around people and close to the people he wants to help so he always chooses an apartment in a relatively unsafe neighborhood. 

The setup that he owns Haly's Circus.

Both of those can happen at the same time. Stays in the apartment in a dubious neighborhood, work at the Circus. 

Like I don't know what kind of niche or gimmick (story-wise) we should have with that setup. He has that secret agent thing but that's a different setup, and Dick has said he doesn't enjoy being a spy. He wants to be open and free while close to others, so the glamor and secrets of the secret agent world don't fit that more grounded setup.

Even as Nightwing he's very open. He's not like Bruce where he pretends to be different people between superhero and civilian. Nightwing and Dick Grayson are the same people.

Someone jokingly suggested once upon a time that they'd be satisfied with a story of Dick Grayson being a good neighbor mowing other people's lawn and that'd be enough and I admit he's charming enough to do that XD

Oh I like one other thing Seeley introduced: That he operates at twilight in comparison to Metropolis at daytime and Gotham at night

I guess he can be a secret agent as an additional job. 
Daytime managing the circus
Twilight as Nightwing
Nighttime secret agent undercover

That's still the setup. To make a story, I need a conflict and a villain. So that's next.

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

I like that concept.

----------


## Restingvoice

872674._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition cover. I like how simple and clean it is. 

Released June 30 apparently but I didn't pay attention

----------


## CPSparkles

batman Legacy by Alex Ross

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

> batman Legacy by Alex Ross


I spy Oracle, I think that's Talia and Damian. Gorgeous art

----------


## Ascended

> Like I don't know what kind of niche or gimmick (story-wise) we should have with that setup.


One of the things I wanted to see with Dick was him dealing with where "superhuman" meets "human." 

Thematically it parallels nicely with the "twilight" concept and keeps one foot in both sides of Dick's life and experience. So things like a black market auction selling off a sample of the Doomsday virus would give you that mix; you've got mobsters and corrupt businessmen and politicians, which is all very grounded and "real world" and Bat-like, trying to get their hands on a biological weapon that turns people into giant Superman killing monsters, which keeps Dick connected to the "Titans" side of his life. Conversely, Dick might discover that some big shot business guy is actually a telepath and that's how he manages to buy out all these other companies for pennies on the dollar, and Dick has to uncover and prove this via investigating the guy, interviewing prior victims, etc. So you'd again have some grounded, street level stuff mixed with the fantastical larger-than-life world of super humanity.

Dick working at Haly's or owning it or whatever also plays nicely into that; you can have performers who are superhuman....but only marginally. Like the circus "magician" is a telekinetic who can only move a couple pounds, the fortune teller is a precog but can only see maybe a couple days into the future. People like this aren't gonna put on a costume and go fight bank robbers; they're relatively grounded and "normal" but they're still more than just baseline human.

----------


## WonderNight

So basically nightwing should be written as a solo titans book and not just another bat book. I would love that.

----------


## Restingvoice

> One of the things I wanted to see with Dick was him dealing with where "superhuman" meets "human." 
> 
> Thematically it parallels nicely with the "twilight" concept and keeps one foot in both sides of Dick's life and experience. So things like a black market auction selling off a sample of the Doomsday virus would give you that mix; you've got mobsters and corrupt businessmen and politicians, which is all very grounded and "real world" and Bat-like, trying to get their hands on a biological weapon that turns people into giant Superman killing monsters, which keeps Dick connected to the "Titans" side of his life. Conversely, Dick might discover that some big shot business guy is actually a telepath and that's how he manages to buy out all these other companies for pennies on the dollar, and Dick has to uncover and prove this via investigating the guy, interviewing prior victims, etc. So you'd again have some grounded, street level stuff mixed with the fantastical larger-than-life world of super humanity.


Ah. So like in Under The Red Hood when Black Mask wanted to smuggle Kryptonite but Jason got to it, or recently where Blockbuster and Tiger Shark holds a supervillain party, or Raptor selling The Parliament's identity list to Kobra. Yeah I like those.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay since things generally go back and forth in mainline comics. What elsewhere story would you like with Nightwing?

----------


## byrd156

> 872674._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg
> 
> Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition cover. I like how simple and clean it is. 
> 
> Released June 30 apparently but I didn't pay attention


I need a new copy. Will try to pick this up.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay since things generally go back and forth in mainline comics. What elsewhere story would you like with Nightwing?


Elseworld Grayson. Never a superhero. Always an agent. Doing it in Elseworld means it's gonna be free of "Nightwing would never do this" comments. 

I hope.

----------


## Vordan

> Elseworld Grayson. Never a superhero. Always an agent. Doing it in Elseworld means it's gonna be free of "Nightwing would never do this" comments. 
> 
> I hope.


That honestly sounds sick. Would definitely read that.

----------


## Ascended

> So basically nightwing should be written as a solo titans book and not just another bat book. I would love that.





> Ah. So like in Under The Red Hood when Black Mask wanted to smuggle Kryptonite but Jason got to it, or recently where Blockbuster and Tiger Shark holds a supervillain party, or Raptor selling The Parliament's identity list to Kobra. Yeah I like those.


Yes, basically. 

At the very least, the most basic level, you're doing something no one else really is; putting a powerless vigilante up against super human threats, and not just low-end metas like Green Arrow fighting Brick, but legit powers who can blow up some serious sh*t. That's a fun spin that keeps Dick in the underdog role but also forces him to be at his most capable. 

It'd force DC to write Nightwing like a utter badass, it'd provide a kind of book we don't see on the shelf very often, and it plays into both sides of Dick's life and character as a Bat and Titan.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes, basically. 
> 
> At the very least, the most basic level, you're doing something no one else really is; putting a powerless vigilante up against super human threats, and not just low-end metas like Green Arrow fighting Brick, but legit powers who can blow up some serious sh*t. That's a fun spin that keeps Dick in the underdog role but also forces him to be at his most capable. 
> 
> It'd force DC to write Nightwing like a utter badass, it'd provide a kind of book we don't see on the shelf very often, and it plays into both sides of Dick's life and character as a Bat and Titan.


Okay, if that's the concept then make him fight them openly. In the city. At twilight. 

Because Red Hood when he's solo usually takes on the dark undercover job, and with Outlaws, they're basically Dark Titans. 
So if Nightwing is solo Titans, let it be light and open. Fly in the sky.

Then when they go undercover, Red Hood will take the darker tone like he usually does, like being an enforcer, bodyguard, torturer, that kind of thing, and Dick takes the glamor part of being a secret agent like in Grayson, doing the seduction and shaking apple juice.

----------


## byrd156

> Yes, basically. 
> 
> At the very least, the most basic level, you're doing something no one else really is; putting a powerless vigilante up against super human threats, and not just low-end metas like Green Arrow fighting Brick, but legit powers who can blow up some serious sh*t. That's a fun spin that keeps Dick in the underdog role but also forces him to be at his most capable. 
> 
> It'd force DC to write Nightwing like a utter badass, it'd provide a kind of book we don't see on the shelf very often, and it plays into both sides of Dick's life and character as a Bat and Titan.


This is a simple premise that I can't believe isn't going on. You have a few one off metas/meta-type villains for non-powered heroes (Brick, Freeze, Bane) but no consistent roster of powers against non-powered.

I really want Dick to just live the superhero life. He could be in Gotham for a week, Metropolis for a day, Japan in an afternoon. He like the few other sidekicks have a unique position of growing up in a world of heroes, as heroes. His idea of a social life is drastically different than an average person. He could be off on a different planet working with heroes to save the universe, crashing on a couch in Atlantis, or defending the Watchtower from super-villains. He's a workaholic and a performer. I think of him kinda like stand up comedians, if they aren't working on material they are constantly hanging around each other or at comedy clubs just watching the craft. He lives and breathes this world, going back to some job or apartment doesn't seem like his thing anymore. That line of thinking worked with a Year One story or Dixon era of striking out on his own in a city where focusing on being his own person as an independent. But I think that line of thinking now mistakes dependence as a weakness or as a lesser form of living. He is a product of the world of DC not just Batman and I think it's only fitting for him to experience that world full time.

----------


## Ascended

> Okay, if that's the concept then make him fight them openly. In the city. At twilight.


That's the idea. Dick is too bright and optimistic to always be in the shadows anyway.




> This is a simple premise that I can't believe isn't going on. You have a few one off metas/meta-type villains for non-powered heroes (Brick, Freeze, Bane) but no consistent roster of powers against non-powered.


Right? And this is just one of the many brilliant ideas I have that'll never see print at DC.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

> This is a simple premise that I can't believe isn't going on. You have a few one off metas/meta-type villains for non-powered heroes (Brick, Freeze, Bane) but no consistent roster of powers against non-powered.
> 
> I really want Dick to just live the superhero life. He could be in Gotham for a week, Metropolis for a day, Japan in an afternoon. He like the few other sidekicks have a unique position of growing up in a world of heroes, as heroes. His idea of a social life is drastically different than an average person. He could be off on a different planet working with heroes to save the universe, crashing on a couch in Atlantis, or defending the Watchtower from super-villains. He's a workaholic and a performer. I think of him kinda like stand up comedians, if they aren't working on material they are constantly hanging around each other or at comedy clubs just watching the craft. He lives and breathes this world, going back to some job or apartment doesn't seem like his thing anymore. That line of thinking worked with a Year One story or Dixon era of striking out on his own in a city where focusing on being his own person as an independent. But I think that line of thinking now mistakes dependence as a weakness or as a lesser form of living. He is a product of the world of DC not just Batman and I think it's only fitting for him to experience that world full time.


I agree with this but in order for something like this to happen (I know fans don't like this) nightwing will need more independence from batman. Nightwing can't be free for globetrotting if he has to be close to Gotham for events like joker war, bat team up and status quo shack ups see ric grayson.

There are alot of great ideas and possibilities for nightwing. But first thing nightwing needs is creative freedom. Just look at the Grayson run, dick was basically forced to be independent in grayson. Even if you don't like dick as a spy the series showed what dick could be when DC is forced to do something new and creative with dick.

----------


## Ascended

> (I know fans don't like this)


I can't speak for everyone of course, but at least around here it seems like the majority opinion is that we *want* Dick to have more independence from Bruce. Most of us don't seem to want him to cut ties completely (he *is* a Bat, after all), but it seems most of us here want Dick on his own.

----------


## AmiMizuno

To make him more independent he needs more of his own rogues. Not only that but also his own cast. One thing I would love to see is him having his own big event. Sometimes going to the past helps. So he needs his own main villain. Needs his own money. He's working on the strip would be a good idea. He does need his own base. I mean if he is a bat. He should have his own version of the Batcave.

----------


## WonderNight

> To make him more independent he needs more of his own rogues. Not only that but also his own cast. One thing I would love to see is him having his own big event. Sometimes going to the past helps. So he needs his own main villain. Needs his own money. He's working on the strip would be a good idea. He does need his own base. I mean if he is a bat. He should have his own version of the Batcave.


I feel like nightwing world is to small scale for a big event. It work in Grayson with the spy wars because he had that whole DCU spy sandbox to play with.

----------


## bearman

One of the recurring problems with the Nightwing series is DC ‘s interest in Dick having an occupation. This was temporarily resolved I Grayson, but Dick was soon a cabbie. He should be the most prominent, and glamorous, vigilante i the universe. Bruce should finance his operation as part of Batman, Inc....so Dick would earn his money, not be given it. He could be an independent contractor, not work for Bruce directly. A one man strike force, dropping by to help other heroes, kicking ass and taking names. The Bats can all operate in the dark...let Dick have his spotlight.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I agree with this but in order for something like this to happen (I know fans don't like this) nightwing will need more independence from batman. Nightwing can't be free for globetrotting if he has to be close to Gotham for events like joker war, bat team up and status quo shack ups see ric grayson.
> 
> There are alot of great ideas and possibilities for nightwing. But first thing nightwing needs is creative freedom. Just look at the Grayson run, dick was basically forced to be independent in grayson. Even if you don't like dick as a spy the series showed what dick could be when DC is forced to do something new and creative with dick.


He can. Both Grayson and Batwoman Rebirth were working on a mission for Batman, it's just that mission allows them to go around the world. Even when Dick was at The Parliament of Owl's HQ he can go back to Gotham in time for an event. 

but the writers need to want to do it, and the department needs to inform them in advance that there's an event.

Going back to the fact that Dick likes to stay close to the people he wants to help, if he does choose Bludhaven then he will mainly stay there unless there's an event that pushes him out like Helena and Spyral returning.

----------


## WonderNight

This is why I which DC viewed nightwing more as a titan than a bat. Nightwing could and should have no limits, he should be both a leaguer and titan. Instead of batman inc. 
Nightwing should be a leaguer that goes on one man strike missions and at the same time be the leader of the titans. Solo nightwing= leaguer one man global strike force. Team nightwing= titan and face of the next generation.

Nightwing is regarded as as one of if not the most connected hero in the DCU. This is the way to play into by make nightwing the Bridge between generations. This is the guy who was a hero before 90% of the adult/leaguers lean into that. Have solo Nightwing be a leaguer and team nightwing be a titan.

I watch alot of YJ and I basically a leaguer in the show in S2E1 we see nightwing at a JL briefing than those and leads his team on the mission. Same thing in season 3. 

Let nightwing be the bridge between generations.

----------


## Restingvoice

I think I'm starting to get what Badou's saying about Bludhaven being a problem.
It's not that the city in itself is bad, but it's because he has a city that he's stuck in a city. 

There may even be some design parameters they have to follow, patterned after Batman. Batman in Gotham, Batgirl of Burnside, Nightwing in Bludhaven, solving crimes within the city. 

Even if they don't have that parameter or that's not an enforced rule... if Dick is given a city, the writer's first thought wouldn't be that he should go out. 

He has a city, so he will take care of the city. Going out happens every once in a while. Just like Batman. The writers probably subconsciously follow Batman's example. 

Seeley is different because he didn't start with a city, he started already global and then given a city, so the city just became part of his already larger world.

Other writers though, started with the thinking that they should play with the city.

It's like a mindset trap

----------


## Ascended

> I think I'm starting to get what Badou's saying about Bludhaven being a problem.
> 
> It's like a mindset trap


It is, but just like Descartes' "demon world" the way to escape is to simply employ some logic. 

Dick having a city makes writers want to fit him within the classic Batman mold. So avoiding the problems of Bat-lite is as simple as being aware of them and writing away from it. The city is only a chain around Dick's neck if the writer allows it to happen.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It is, but just like Descartes' "demon world" the way to escape is to simply employ some logic. 
> 
> Dick having a city makes writers want to fit him within the classic Batman mold. So avoiding the problems of Bat-lite is as simple as being aware of them and writing away from it. The city is only a chain around Dick's neck if the writer allows it to happen.


When did Bat-lite perception first start?

----------


## Drako

I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention.  :Big Grin: 
We are all just waiting for this to be over.

----------


## Godlike13

New comic day is still Wednesdays for me. Im not going to my shop 2 days in a rows. Though Jurgan's writing is so decompressed and shallow, there really isn't much to talk about beyond what we already talked about from the marketing. He does little beyond stretching out what we already know from the covers and general marketing. 75% of this weeks issue is just recap. Using Bea explaining to Babs to tell readers what has gone on in his run and put emphasis on his MacGuffin. While the other 25% is just what the marketing has revealed.

----------


## Ascended

> When did Bat-lite perception first start?


I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.

Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized. 

Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.




> I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. 
> We are all just waiting for this to be over.


We did? Whatever. I'm surprised godlike is still reading that crap; I wouldn't pay good money for this. I wouldn't read it if it were free.

----------


## TheCape

> I love that we had a Nightwing comic yesterday and no one even bothered to mention. 
> We are all just waiting for this to be over.


Honestly, i thougth that you people were exagerating about how bad it was....then i read the first few issues and man i didn't to continue, at least the 49 issues before this started were mostly enjoyable.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m oc. I hate myself for still reading it. And now with COVID, I’m trying to get what I can to help my shop.

----------


## Ascended

> And now with COVID, Im trying to get what I can to help my shop.


Well I can definitely respect that. I hope all of us are doing what we can to help our local shops, and the industry in general, right now. 

I *did* pick up Lost Carnival the other day, but haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, grabbed that too. Haven’t read it yet though.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.
> 
> Far as I know, the Bat-lite stuff really started to become super obvious with the first solo. The Titans had become a dumpster fire and DC wanted to move Dick away from the property as much as they could. To his credit, Dixon did do a lot to establish that Nightwing was not just Batman Jr., despite a lot of similarities between them and Dick's return to street level adventures, but as less talented writers took over the book the Bat-lite parallels became more and more prevalent. I don't think I could point to any single issue and say "This is where it started." I think it's a slope; there's always been a lot of the Bat in Dick's makeup (again; he was Robin so of course there is) but it slowly took over as Dick's more unique traits became de-emphasized. 
> 
> Like the Batgod, I don't think it's something that just happened, but was a slow evolution as writers looked at the work of better creators and took all the wrong lessons away from the work.


The line started when it becomes unacceptable. For example, as Robin, he's created to be a sidekick, so saying he's secondary to Batman is not wrong. 

So at which point that being a Bat-lite becomes wrong for him? 

for me, at first, it was when I heard he has become Batman, has his own Robin, and became a Leaguer because at that point they sound like an equal. However, it seems DC and Batman fans view it as a temporary filler instead of a full circle. So they never really acknowledge it. 

Then I found out that Nightwing is already an attempt to separate himself, and it happened in Titans instead of in a Batman family story. His marriage with Starfire was another attempt. 

So it may start earlier than I thought.  

Of course, I don't blame DC wanting to save Nightwing from Titans losing profit by folding him back to the Bat-family, but that's also when I thought Nightwing was always the identity between Robin and Batman because that is how it's portrayed in larger media. Nightwing is always a part of and follows Batman, and when I first got into comics I'm surprised that fans view Nightwing more than that, because at first, I thought that was all he is, a sidekick, just an older one.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The question is maybe a bigger event. I mean what if Dick had his own big event. Where the Batfam and TT have to come together?

----------


## Ascended

If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.

The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.

----------


## Somecrazyaussie

> I'm not sure. I mean, where do we even draw that line? Dick was Robin after all; he's always had plenty in common with Bruce.


He does have similarities, but Dick is a different individual to Bruce. For starters, he is a team player. He also leads from the front and isn't afraid to be seen in public. There was a time where, if Nightwing was in the room, the other heroes listened. The only other hero who commands that respect is Superman. 

Giving him his own solo was a great start. I can see what they were trying to do, but the execution steered to close to familiar territory. Dick was given his own city, but that city was said to be even worse than Gotham. He had his own version of The Batmobile. Plus Bludhaven was just down the road from Gotham. There are a few more examples, but they did play it safe when they kicked off his first solo. 

Dick shares a similar backstory to Bruce, but Nightwing hasn't allowed that tragedy to consume him the way Bruce has. Before the current character assassination he is undergoing, Dick enjoyed being a hero. He always had a smile on his face when beating up on bad guys. Bruce doesn't necessarily enjoy being Batman. He does it out of a compulsive need to prevent what happened to him from occurring to others. Not for entirely for altruistic reasons. 

One thing I often didn't like is when writer's tried to play Dick up as a great detective. He knows proper police procedure (how could he not when being raised by Bruce), but he hasn't got that detective mindset like Bruce has. As Robin I could see that stuff boring him when he would rather be doing somersaults from Gotham skyscrapers.

----------


## Konja7

> If Dick were to get a big Event.....no Batman. Tim and Damian are fine; those are Dick's little brothers, but if Bruce is involved it'll either result in Bruce taking over because DC can't resist doing that, or it'll look like Bruce *letting* Dick be in charge, which isn't going to help Nightwing either.
> 
> The only role Batman should have in a Nightwing Event is as the damsel in distress.


And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.

The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.

Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.

----------


## Somecrazyaussie

> And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.
> 
> The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.
> 
> Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.


Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

> And that's why we will never have a big Event for Dick.
> 
> The problem is Dick's current world is too connected to Batman, so any big Event will involve Batman. And DC will always choose Batman to be the main hero.
> 
> Not to mention that I really doubt DC would allow Batman to be the damsel in distress.


This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise. 

There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks

Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.

----------


## Konja7

> This is exactly what I've been sayin, Nightwing is nothing more than an adult sidekick for batman. EVERYTHING about current nightwing ether come from or is tied to the bat mythos and franchise. 
> 
> There's a whole DCU out there full of characters and places but nightwing has to just be limited to batman's back pocket. This sucks
> 
> Currently nightwing is no more independent or his own man than golden age Robin was just look at his last Issue. I know going back to batman in the 90s helped nightwing but this ain't the 90s or 2000s anymore.


I think the current situation is worse than 90s or 2000s.

I mean, there are many places in the whole DCU, but most are in a pretty bad situation. Also, I'm not sure where he might fit in and what role he would have.

Even Grayson was still part of Batman editorial, Dick was just away from Batman family events (for a while), because they don't want to use him.

----------


## Ascended

> Can't have Dick getting too big, can we? DC wouldn't know what to do


They are definitely scared of it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And no, we won't get an Event for Nightwing.....at least not with things the way they were under Didio. And I doubt we'll get one under Lee, though we haven't seen enough of him as sole publisher to *really* know.

*Maybe* we get some kind of Titans Event, with Dick having a big role, but that's probably as close as we'll get, and I find even that to be pretty damn unlikely.

Things are definitely worse than the 90's or 00's. Back then, Nightwing didn't get a ton of effort from DC either but they at least treated him as a solo property instead of a f*cking sidekick. 

But sooner or later, DC will recognize the potential they're wasting and decide they'd like to make more money. Oh, speaking of money, does anyone have any idea how Lost Carnival sold?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean ignoring Dc. If Dick were to have his own main event. What would it be? Talking outside the box. If we were to take Dick outside would Dc is allowing him to be. He needs a break from his family.  Something not dealing with Batman. I mean it would be a little too easy. We had something like that. Okay many say they want Dick on JL. So what if Dick had a big event that had to deal with saving the JL. Or too crazy? The JL goes missing who better to take over than the Titans. They have to figure out where the JL has gone.

----------


## Ascended

I wouldn't even bother with the "save the League" stuff. That's a common enough theme in Titans and Nightwing history. If I could I'd ignore the League completely, but to ensure the stakes of an Event seem high enough you *have* to use them in some fashion.....so instead of saving them, I'd have Dick take some of them down. Show us that Bruce isn't the only baseline human who can pull down a god.

As for the hook? You've got a few options, and none of them are crazy great. You can pick a threat from within Dick's solo mythos, which basically limits you to Blockbuster and the Bludhaven mobs and Raptor. It'd take a lot of work to make them seem like a big enough problem to warrant a Event. Or you can grab a threat that Dick has co-ownership of, like the Court of Owls or Spyral. Arguably the best approach here, and one would assume that the Event would shift the villain into Dick's rogues gallery completely. Or you bring in a brand new threat nobody has heard of. Not a bad way to go but the lack of precedent will have to be balanced out carefully, so you don't look like you're trying too hard (avoid red shirt-ing someone, yknow?). Last option, you take a established threat Dick has no prior connection to, like Professor Zoom....but that just looks random and weird.

It it were me? I have an idea in my head for the Flamebird and Nightwing of Kryptonian myth coming to earth and being curious about the humans using their names. I won't bore people with the details, but it's an example of using an IP that Dick is connected to (his name comes from Superman) but doesn't really own.

----------


## Godlike13

How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.

----------


## Somecrazyaussie

> I mean ignoring Dc. If Dick were to have his own main event. What would it be? Talking outside the box. If we were to take Dick outside would Dc is allowing him to be. He needs a break from his family.  Something not dealing with Batman. I mean it would be a little too easy. We had something like that. Okay many say they want Dick on JL. So what if Dick had a big event that had to deal with saving the JL. Or too crazy? The JL goes missing who better to take over than the Titans. They have to figure out where the JL has gone.


That's been done and would only retread the same ground narrative wise. 


The truth is, you couldn't give Dick a event. Purely because DC haven't done enough to build up his own mythos. You need a solid foundation with which to build off of. They've established a few new ripples with the Court Of Owls, Raptor and Spyral. But more needs to be done - they need to establish a solid support cast, reestablish his own rogues, give him his own day job etc. 

I think Ascended is on the right path. But I wouldn't involve the Titans. I'd have the younger heroes who aren't affiliated with any titans/young justice roster suddenly go missing. Preferably ones without any mentors to notice them missing. Somehow, Dick gets drawn into it (maybe there is a teen hero in Bludhaven who he saves from getting kidnapped) and Dick mounts a rescue mission. The only issue is you need the League and Titans off the board so he is forced to go solo. He saves them, assembles them into a team, then goes on to mentor them himself.

----------


## WonderNight

> How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.


they wouldn't take him seriously. They'd know he'd just follow his bat daddy's orders. They may follow jason through.

----------


## Badou

> How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.


They will just have Dick apologize and ask Bruce if he is disappointed in him like last time. Then Roy will punch Dick in the face again, haha.

----------


## Masterff

> How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.


Actually it would work and be perfect...

Only thing which you need is bring Pre-Flashpoint timeline back with Conner,Cassie,Bart,Tim....as the second Titans team.

Its a good Idea, but he needs more support and this support can come from Conner, who was the biggest Titans Hero in Pre-Flashpoint, since he died in IC.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How about Dick starts a generational revolt against the authoritarianism of the JL. Or what about Dick starts a Titans Lives Matters movement.


Titans _is_ the generational revolt. 

Speaking of stories, I just want things that make sense...

----------


## Ascended

> I think Ascended is on the right path. But I wouldn't involve the Titans.


Best to leave the Titans team out of it, at least for the most part. Given the state of the franchise it won't do Dick many favors to include them. More like a noose around his neck. Plus, the Titans largely exist just for Events to eat them and prove how "serious" the threat is, and a Nightwing Event killing off the Titans' dross wouldn't be a good look.

However, using some of Dick's closest friends like Donna and Wally would be viable. They're former Titans, but far more pertinent is the fact they're Dick's BFF's.

----------


## Godlike13

*NIGHTWING #75*
_written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!_

It’s not marked as final issues but Batgirl is with the same page count. Though with the 5G plans changed maybe it’s not and they are just gonna keep it going as long as Jurgens wants to write it. Which would be a terrible decision cause Jurgens has been terrible, and he is completely out of touch on this title. 
They need to get him and his mediocrity off and end this book. No one gives a shit about if he remembers Bea. The need to distance him from these last 2 years of dog crap that no one liked. They can’t remain this out of touch. The solic should be screaming Ric is gone! Not leaving Ric still in question. They need to accept their failure and move on, definitely. Not let the worse selling Nightwing writer continue to do what he’s been doing.

----------


## Drako

NIGHTWING #75
written by DAN JURGENS
art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 10/20/20
$5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is backbut is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwingand missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!

More Dan Jurgens... great...



He is also in both Justice Leagues issues of October.
I guess we have to wait until Death Metal ends for a new writer.

----------


## Konja7

> NIGHTWING #75
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 10/20/20
> $5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
> In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!
> 
> ...


Batgirl and Outsiders are ending in October. I also read that Red Hood will end soon.

So, Nigtwing may just last one month more.

----------


## Ascended

> So, Nigtwing may just last one month more.


Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?

----------


## Frontier

> NIGHTWING #75
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 10/20/20
> $5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
> In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!
> 
> ...


I guess this brings this whole mess of a story full-circle with Dick fighting KGBeast. 

I wonder who of the Titans shows up. And they probably won't bother to explain why none of them (Cough)Raven, Ms. Martian(Cough) tried to fix things.

----------


## sifighter

> Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?


Its the assumption that since a bunch of other series are ending and series writers are finishing their last arcs with fillin stories taking place for those not ending that Death Metal is going to relaunch most if not all series with a new #1.

----------


## Drako

> Do we have good reason to think it'll be cancelled? Or are we just assuming it will be?


If is indeed cancelled, is to be relaunch with a new creative team. Batgirl and Nightwing are good selling books for DC not to have in the market.

----------


## Morgoth

You know, I'm somehow just glad, that right after his return Dick will get a chance to kick KGBeast's ass.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s Jurgens though. So expect it dragged out, fruitless, and unsatisfying. Like the return of his memories.

----------


## sifighter

Personally I’m probably going to go read the Justice League tie-in by Williamson. Mainly for Duck with Cyborg and Starfire again.

----------


## Claude

> Personally Im probably going to go read the Justice League tie-in by Williamson. Mainly for Duck with Cyborg and Starfire again.




Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo. 

There are worse things in the world.

----------


## Frontier

> Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo. 
> 
> There are worse things in the world.


Joshua Williamson writing a _Titans_ book? That...that honestly wouldn't be too bad to be honest.

----------


## DragonPiece

I'm still holding out hope Williamson will write Nightwing. It's clear DC has a relaunch on the way, I'd rather Jurgens not keep writing.

----------


## sifighter

> Presumably, this suggests Williamson will be spinning it off into a new "Titans" book rather than a Nightwing solo. 
> 
> There are worse things in the world.


I mean I would add a character or two and remove Luthor, but I would honestly read a Titans or Justice League book with this line-up. I mean its Starfire, Nightwing, and Cyborg from the Titans, Kendra Saunders from the JSA, and you can decide whether or not to keep detective chimp. If you were to add characters like Jessica Cruz, Kyle Rayner, A flash (it could be Wally but maybe Jesse Quick), Supergirl, Miss Martian or others that come to mind and you can have a pretty good line-up on your hands.

----------


## Badou

Remember we speculated that Jurgens was going to keep writing Nightwing during 5G and bring over his Dick becomes mayor of Bludhaven story that he was writing in Batman Beyond. So even if 5G fell through it isn't a huge surprise that Jurgens would continue to write it if he wants to if the plan was to keep him on the book anyway for 5G.

----------


## Ascended

> Its the assumption that since a bunch of other series are ending and series writers are finishing their last arcs with fillin stories taking place for those not ending that Death Metal is going to relaunch most if not all series with a new #1.


Okay, that's what I thought.

Yeah a relaunch seems likely after Metal 2 wraps up, but that's not the same thing as a straight cancellation. I think if DC was gonna drop Nightwing for good they'd have done it already. Clearly, despite Didio, *somebody* realized that no Nightwing on the stands is a mistake.

As for Jurgens staying on the book.....I dunno; sales have done nothing to justify keeping him and the reviews of the book do nothing but encourage DC to sweep the last couple years under the rug, bring in new creators, and never mention Ric or any of his writers again. I love Jurgens but he has done nothing on this book and should not remain; all that'll do is ensure sales don't bounce back to where they should be. 

It's DC, so who the hell knows what they'll do; whatever it is it'll likely not be what the IP deserves. But I struggle to see them keeping anything from the Ric saga around, including creators. They do that, they might as well just cancel the book for real.

----------


## Godlike13

Remember 5G was the plan, and I doubt Nightwing had much of a place in that, but now they are scrambling to do something else. Nightwing sales are not good. Before they were being artificially inflated by Joker War they fell to Batman Beyond levels. At this point it’s existence is about Jurgens, not the character.

----------


## Konja7

> Remember 5G was the plan, and I doubt Nightwing had much of a place in that, but now they are scrambling to do something else. Nightwing sales are not good. Before they were being artificially inflated by Joker War they fell to Batman Beyond levels. At this point it’s existence is about Jurgens, not the character.


Yeah. They need something to help the sales (and that's situation for comics in general).

I mean, a new #1 will increase the sales for a while, but it won't last. 

Honestly, I'm not even sure a good quality story is enough to keep sales steady. Even Grayson had fallen to 30K at the end (and the fall seemed to continue).


I would like Dick and Damian working as team in a book, maybe that helps the stories and the sales.

----------


## Restingvoice

> NIGHTWING #75
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by TRAVIS MOORE and RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 10/20/20
> $5.99 US | 48 PAGES | FC | DC
> In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is backbut is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn't go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwingand missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!
> 
> ...


Once this is all over I don't mind KGBeast as a recurring enemy since Nightwing is The One Who Got Away

What I hate is Ric, not the shooting itself.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah. They need something to help the sales (and that's situation for comics in general).


Things look bad, and the last couple years have been straight f*cking awful. But let's not discount Nightwing or his fanbase. We're talking about one of the most stable and consistent comics in the entire industry, when DC itself isn't hell bent on ruining it (does my money smell bad or something? I don't understand why they don't want it). 

It might take a little time for readers to return, and it'll serve DC right if it does; they f*cked us over hard and laughed about it. But you slap a new #1 on the cover, the proper Nightwing costume and name, and put a decent creative team on the book (like Williamson maybe) and before long Nightwing will be selling what he used to. It won't happen over night, but it'll happen. And all that is the bare minimum effort; if Jim Lee puts his money where his mouth is and really is out to protect Nightwing, we'll get more than that bare level effort (might not happen until the company recovers from the pandemic unbalancing stuff though). And if we get that extra effort, the sales will bounce back faster and might even settle at a higher average than the book historically has. 

Work needs to be done to repair the character and book, but Nightwing doesn't require miracles. It just requires a decent creative team and an editor who doesn't actively try to sh*t on him.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Truly it seems they have him connected to Batman too much. Dick should have a good relationship but shouldn't need to apologize for many things. Dick is well respected. Sadly Dc wants things to always have Dick just be a big sidekick. There comes a time where maybe another fallout is needed.

----------


## Digifiend

> Joshua Williamson writing a _Titans_ book? That...that honestly wouldn't be too bad to be honest.





> I'm still holding out hope Williamson will write Nightwing. It's clear DC has a relaunch on the way, I'd rather Jurgens not keep writing.


Why not both? He'll have the time, Flash was a double shipping book and neither Titans nor Nightwing are. And didn't Williamson say he wasn't done with the speedsters? A Titans book should have Wally in it.

----------


## bearman

No, please, not another fallout with Bruce. That’s a part of why Dick is Bat lite.
Grayson has people skills, he uses his words. They can certainly disagree, and Dick can choose to distance himself, but they are truly brothers, and should never lose that connection. The connection should not be at the hip, is all.

----------


## Wingin' It

I would really prefer a new writer. I know Jurgens had to writer "Ric" and not Nightwing proper, but the guy could have done something interesting with it instead of spinning his wheels and dragging out the storyline (and I use that word lightly) with pointless recap that will be even more intolerable in a trade.

I know he's not a bad writer overall, but he did such an actively bad job with this title that I'd quite literally like to see any other writer give a whack at it. Except for Lobdell, even I won't breathe that evil into the world.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. All I’m saying is Dc needs to even treat Dc like a Solo hero within the Batfam or take him out. By that I mean he has connections of course but he isn’t going to appear in the Batfam comics often one or two. They have to honestly cut back on his appearance. The appearances that should appear could simple be family related.  Once again to not make him Bat lite it would more to do about his city. Not only that but no sidekicks. I mean even those Rose is with good relationships with her dad. Would it still work with rose and him be mentor and mentee?  He basically needs more clear cut supporting cast that would balance out Batfam


Also when it comes to the age gaps with the robins how wide are they.

----------


## Restingvoice

> True. All I’m saying is Dc needs to even treat Dc like a Solo hero within the Batfam or take him out. By that I mean he has connections of course but he isn’t going to appear in the Batfam comics often one or two. They have to honestly cut back on his appearance. The appearances that should appear could simple be family related.  Once again to not make him Bat lite it would more to do about his city. Not only that but no sidekicks. I mean even those Rose is with good relationships with her dad. Would it still work with rose and him be mentor and mentee?  He basically needs more clear cut supporting cast that would balance out Batfam
> 
> 
> Also when it comes to the age gaps with the robins how wide are they.


Dick was in college when Pre Crisis Jason came in

Dick was in New Teen Titans and living with Starfire when Post Crisis Jason became Robin

Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13

Jason was revived soon after he's buried because of Superboy-Prime punch altering reality

Steph is one year older than Tim. I believe the age at that time was Robin 14, Spoiler 15

Dick moved to Bludhaven, worked as a Bartender, then went through a police academy, then became a cop, then worked as a museum curator...

When Damian arrived at 10 and Dick became Batman, Tim was still a high schooler, and I don't remember if Steph was in high school or college as Batgirl but she did infiltrate St. Hadrian's college so I'm gonna say she's in college, 18 years old, while Tim is 17.

and now Duke is a high schooler while Damian is 13 years old

----------


## Somecrazyaussie

> I would like Dick and Damian working as team in a book, maybe that helps the stories and the sales.


I like this idea. Damian is only good when he has other characters to bounce off. Him and Dick were great. Damian, despite being Bruce's son, doesn't function well with him out in the field. With Dick, he did. Yes, _Nightwing & Robin_.

----------


## Restingvoice

NIGHTWING: THE NEW 52 OMNIBUS HC
written by KYLE HIGGINS, TOM DeFALCO, TIM SEELEY, TOM KING, and SCOTT SNYDER
art by EDDY BARROWS, EDUARDO PANSICA, TREVOR McCARTHY, BRETT BOOTH, WILL CONRAD, CLIFF RICHARDS, JASON MASTERS, DANIEL SAMPERE, SANFORD GREENE, DOUG MAHNKE, GREG CAPULLO and others
cover by EDDY BARROWS
ON SALE 12/1/20
$99.99 US | 832 PAGES | FC | DC
7.0625" x 10.875"
ISBN: 978-1-77950-700-6
It's a new era for Dick Grayson as Nightwing gets a fresh start—one that takes Dick back to his origins.
When Haly's Circus, where Dick Grayson once performed, returns to Gotham City, it brings a mysterious, superhuman evil. Nightwing works to uncover the mysteries that the circus brought with it, but he finds himself torn between his two lives: circus performer and superhero. Is it possible that the two are more connected than he ever realized? Nightwing will travel with Haly's Circus across the East Coast and beyond in his attempt to discover the dark truths that hide beneath the big top.
Back in Gotham, Nightwing will face off against villains like Lady Shiva and The Joker—in this omnibus collection of Nightwing's memorable New 52 adventures! Collects Nightwing #0-30, Batman #17, Young Romance: A New 52 Valentine's Day Special #1, Nightwing Annual #1, and Secret Origins #1.

----------


## Digifiend

> Dick was in college when Pre Crisis Jason came in
> 
> Dick was in New Teen Titans and living with Starfire when Post Crisis Jason became Robin
> 
> Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13
> 
> Jason was revived soon after he's buried because of Superboy-Prime punch altering reality
> 
> Steph is one year older than Tim. I believe the age at that time was Robin 14, Spoiler 15
> ...


Yeah, Steph was at college in her Batgirl series. She would've been posing as being a year or two younger than her real age when Batman enrolled her at St Hadrians in Batman Incorporated (in an issue delayed enough that it was printed AFTER New 52 started, meaning it had already been retconned!).

----------


## Restingvoice

and now in Rebirth Tim's getting a scholarship to college and the solicit for Young Justice talked about the team entering young adulthood, so they'd be around 18 and if you say Steph enrolled as a year younger then it fits if she's 19 now.  

So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years
Cass is the same age as Jason
Jason to Steph is 1 year
Steph to Tim is 1 year
Tim to Duke is around 1-2 years
Duke to Damian is 3-4 years

So supposedly the current lineup is
Damian 13
Duke 16-17
Tim 18
Steph 19
Jason and Cass 20
Dick 25

----------


## Konja7

> and now in Rebirth Tim's getting a scholarship to college and the solicit for Young Justice talked about the team entering young adulthood, so they'd be around 18 and if you say Steph enrolled as a year younger then it fits if she's 19 now.  
> 
> So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years
> Cass is the same age as Jason
> Jason to Steph is 1 year
> Steph to Tim is 1 year
> Tim to Duke is around 1-2 years
> Duke to Damian is 3-4 years
> 
> ...


However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).

A problem with age is Batman, DC doesn't want the members of the Batfamily to grow, because it would make Batman too old.

----------


## Restingvoice

> However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).
> 
> A problem with age is Batman, DC doesn't want the members of the Batfamily to grow, because it would make Batman too old.


Yes but that was really early in Rebirth. Since then they've been adding more years to the back story and bringing back old canon until that solicitation mentioned the YJ generation are entering young adulthood... and since Bendis and Snyder seem to be counting old continuities as canon, even though it's not exactly clear since the new timeline isn't official yet, this is what logical to me for now.

----------


## Digifiend

> However, Tim's age is inconstant. In Tynion's Detective Comics, it was mentioned he was 16 (he could college earlier because he is pretty smart).


The Robin 80th anniversary special retconned that. In a prequel to Detective Comics Rebirth, Tim told Dick that he wasn't 20 yet. Surely if he was only 16 he would've said so, that reads as him being 18 or 19.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I know this will be difficult but with how DC is. How do we stop having Dick just be Bat-lite? I mean should it be how Bruce treats Dick? With how long he has known him and how well-round DIck is. Shouldn't it be more he treats Dick equal?

----------


## Aahz

> So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years


Classically (comics fro the 80s) it is more like 7 years to Jason and 8 years to Tim.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason died at 15, Tim came in at 13


Jason dieing at 15 isn't from the comics (it is from the Batman Files) and not really canon. Based on the comics Jason was 12 when Bruce took him in, and him being with Bruce long enough to turn 15 just doesn't work with the time line. 




> So classically the age difference is Dick to Jason a minimum of 5 years


Classically (comics fro the 80s) it is more like 7 years to Jason and 8 years to Tim.
Based on these comics it is even easier to find arguments for Tim and Jason being the same age, as for Jason being two years older than Tim.

----------


## Light of Justice

> I like this idea. Damian is only good when he has other characters to bounce off. Him and Dick were great. Damian, despite being Bruce's son, doesn't function well with him out in the field. With Dick, he did. Yes, _Nightwing & Robin_.


I think because Damian is Bruce's son that's why their dynamic is not as compatible as BrucexDick and DickxDamian. They're kinda similar, both are dominating person, but the way they view the world are different. Every time I see Bruce and Damian conflict, they remind me of a pair of bull who bash their head with each other. Their dynamics are often go like this : 
Batman : *I* SAID-
Damian : AND *I* SAID-

Sometimes I feel sorry for Dick to be sandwiched between them, but if there's someone in the world who can tame those two Waynes, it's him. I think Dick is Bruce's favorite Robin and Damian's favorite Batman.

----------


## AmiMizuno

The thing is. I like Damian's and Dick's relationship. But how does this help Dick? Do we get Damian to appear more in his books? Or maybe Damian simply calls dick to talk to him. One thing is that if we want Dick to be a hero around the world maybe since in the comics Dick was the one to suggest him being Robin. He has Damian look afterBludhaven. I mean slightly changing it up. Well, it does have crime. Bludhaven is much like Dick himself. While facing its ups and downs. It's a bright city. But much like Dick's past, there is Darkness underground.  Despite this the people are positive.  Always thought Bludhaven should be inbetween Metropolis and Gotham. It's not a dark place but it's not a happy place. It has it's crazies. Or maybe Cassie. We did have Step and Cassie do something.

----------


## Fergus

Damian might have a great dynamic with Dick but he is a Batman support character and part of his cast. It doesn't help Dick. Nightwing writers should be focused on developing HIS own support cast exclusive to him.

As much as Dick and Damian work well together in truth Damian will always belong to the Batfamily.

I don't mind occasional guest appearances but I don't see Dick poaching him. It's better for Dick Grayson and Nightwing if his world remains fairly independent of thing that are associated with Gotham.

----------


## Ascended

Agreed, Dick needs his own characters. 

At this point I suppose Dick could probably poach Tim as his own; the only time in the last....nine years? that Tim has really had a presence in a Batman book was the Rebirth 'Tec. But that's still taking a Bat that wasn't designed for Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.


And Lor Zod!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay, we have Rose. What to do for her. I also would add back  Haley's Cirus. We readd Court of owls. Dick rescues talons in training or even awakes some of the talons they are frozen. Dick uses the cirrus as a rehab.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay, we have Rose. What to do for her. I also would add back  Haley's Cirus. We readd Court of owls. Dick rescues talons in training or even awakes some of the talons they are frozen. Dick uses the cirrus as a rehab.


After Haly's Circus was exposed to the Bat-family, they no longer used them for training. I forget what they do in the series Talon but I think it's straight-up kidnapping.

----------


## Godlike13

Nevermind.

----------


## Ascended

> Tim’s a clone that brings nothing to the table as a supporting character for Dick. Rose still remains the top choice IMO.


Rose is, of course, an excellent choice but it's still poaching a character Dick's never going to completely own as part of his individual mythos.

Don't get me wrong, Rose *should* be there. In my own fanfic headcanon she's there. But DC isn't going to take Rose away from Slade so Dick can add her to his supporting cast. Not as things stand right now anyway. 

Give me an hour with Jim Lee and I'll convince him. I'm a hell of a salesman, I can make it happen.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Godlike13

They have done it before, Nightwing taking her away from her dad, and they have even done it outside of comics. I honestly don’t think Rose is un-gettable. The thing with Rose is she is part of Deathstroke’s mythos, who is part of of Titans mythos. So she already connects. Using her would be incredibly seemless. Deathstroke even further established ground for it. 

Literally all it would take is Dick calling Rose and being like hey, heard shit is rough. Wanna come over to Bludhaven for a fresh start with me. Deathstroke probably wouldn’t even appose it. Not saying this is how it should play out, just saying it could be this easy and make sense with what has already been done. They wouldn’t even have to take her away from Deathstroke as it would fit their relationship.

----------


## Lazurus33

naxsflut04c51.jpg

variant for Batman #99 by Jorge Jiménez

----------


## Ascended

> They have done it before, Nightwing taking her away from her dad, and they have even done it outside of comics. I honestly don’t think Rose is un-gettable. The thing with Rose is she is part of Deathstroke’s mythos, who is part of of Titans mythos. So she already connects. Using her would be incredibly seemless. Deathstroke even further established ground for it. 
> 
> Literally all it would take is Dick calling Rose and being like hey, heard shit is rough. Wanna come over to Bludhaven for a fresh start with me. Deathstroke probably wouldn’t even appose it. Not saying this is how it should play out, just saying it could be this easy and make sense with what has already been done. They wouldn’t even have to take her away from Deathstroke as it would fit their relationship.


Oh, it can and has been done, and it's easy as hell to do. I totally agree with you; even right now it's far from impossible for Rose to shift over to Dick's book, especially since Slade's solo is done.

What I mean is, it's unlikely Rose would actually stick around long term. She'd join the supporting cast but once DC decides to do another Deathstroke book, or even a story where Slade features prominently (like another Judas crossover or something) Rose would get yanked out of Dick's narrative. That wouldn't be a horrible thing if it was just for a short crossover, but what if DC decides to do another Deathstroke solo? They're not gonna let Rose live in Dick's book if the Deathstroke writer wants her. 

Rose *should* and *could* be part of Dick's supporting cast, and in my fanfic headcanon she is. But editorial needs to change the way it does things if we want her to stick around for good.

----------


## WonderNight

What do you guys about Artemis crock as nightwing partner or semi partner. People always say dick works best with a partner and she's popular with no real connections to other characters or franchises. Plus I like there dynamic in yj. What you guys think.

----------


## TheCape

> What do you guys about Artemis crock as nightwing partner or semi partner. People always say dick works best with a partner and she's popular with no real connections to other characters or franchises. Plus I like there dynamic in yj. What you guys think.


Well, she hasn't appeared in any comic since Lodbell's TT and is not like Tigress was a particurlary popular villain...so yeah it migth work.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay, supporting cast. Do we keep the police commission? How does he meet the cops? I mean unlike Gotham. Bludhaven shouldn't be corrupted.  But still should have it's crazy. Maybe in a sense for what it lacks in numbers. It makes up for in just how crazy things can get. He still does need the main villain. I mean if anything wouldn't DeathStorke want to go after Dick more than the Titans?

----------


## Godlike13

Bring back Amy i guess. Though I think they should relook at that entirely. Can’t just recreate how it works in Gotham.

----------


## Ascended

> What do you guys about Artemis crock as nightwing partner or semi partner. People always say dick works best with a partner and she's popular with no real connections to other characters or franchises. Plus I like there dynamic in yj. What you guys think.


You know, that's not a bad choice at all. Like, it's probably one of the best suggestions I've seen here. 

I'm assuming you'd want to just transplate the basic Young Justice set up right? Daughter of Sportsmaster and sister to Jade and all that? I tell you what, I'd support it.




> I mean if anything wouldn't DeathStorke want to go after Dick more than the Titans?


Slade and Dick seem to have a weird dynamic now don't they? They hate each other, and Slade would kill Dick if he got an honest chance, but Dick has been good to Rose. Better than Slade has been. So there's a weird kind of....I don't want to say bond....but I feel like they have a certain kind of understanding. Or maybe that's all in my head, I don't know if I even recall the last time I saw them interact.

----------


## AmiMizuno

This is why in a sense I often thought Deathstroke would kind of work as a rogue villain.  Sure he is a hitman for hire but he also has a grudge with Dick. In many ways, he hates and respects Dick. Now the thing is Rose seems to be on better terms with her dad in the comics. But maybe like Damian, she feels more comfortable with  Dick. In a weird way, Dick seems to be the father figure to many of the younger kids. Especially in his family.  Would Zatanna work has a supporting cast? Going back with Haley Circus she and Dick sometimes meet? I think Bludhaven works best if it's more entertainment. You the city trying to be the Hollywood city.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You know, that's not a bad choice at all. Like, it's probably one of the best suggestions I've seen here. 
> 
> I'm assuming you'd want to just transplate the basic Young Justice set up right? Daughter of Sportsmaster and sister to Jade and all that? I tell you what, I'd support it.
> 
> 
> 
> Slade and Dick seem to have a weird dynamic now don't they? They hate each other, and Slade would kill Dick if he got an honest chance, but Dick has been good to Rose. Better than Slade has been. So there's a weird kind of....I don't want to say bond....but I feel like they have a certain kind of understanding. Or maybe that's all in my head, I don't know if I even recall the last time I saw them interact.


I like that kind of complex relationship

----------


## disillusion386

Sorry to interrupt the current conversation, but is it worth jumping back into Nightwing again? Is Ric finally done? Was #72 serviceable at least?

----------


## Light of Justice

> Sorry to interrupt the current conversation, but is it worth jumping back into Nightwing again? Is Ric finally done? Was #72 serviceable at least?


Personally I find Nightwing #72 is incredibly frustating. If you are following Joker war, I suggest you to read it. But if you want to only read Dick comeback only, best if you wait for another month at least. You just need to know that Dick is being brainwashed by Joker. The rest isn't really important

----------


## disillusion386

> Personally I find Nightwing #72 is incredibly frustating. If you are following Joker war, I suggest you to read it. But if you want to only read Dick comeback only, best if you wait for another month at least. You just need to know that Dick is being brainwashed by Joker. The rest isn't really important


Okay, thanks. I actually stopped reading comics altogether several months ago and even then was only reading a few books. I'm definitely not following Joker War so thanks for the heads up. I'll wait until the conclusion of that event.

----------


## Ascended

If you're waiting for Dick's triumphant return as Nightwing, it looks like issue 75 is what you want to pick up. Or, actually, some issue of Batman is where Dick will officially put the suit back on, but Nightwing 75 seems to be the first issue of Dick's own book where he's back.

But it's still written by Jurgens, so I don't think you should expect a quality comic. 

We've got a few months between now and 75's release, I'd just keep your ear to the ground. If it turns out we're getting a better creative team after 75 it might be more enjoyable to just wait that extra month; I'm sure 75 will be dealing with plenty of loose ends from the Ric era that most of us would rather just forget as soon as possible.

----------


## disillusion386

> If you're waiting for Dick's triumphant return as Nightwing, it looks like issue 75 is what you want to pick up. Or, actually, some issue of Batman is where Dick will officially put the suit back on, but Nightwing 75 seems to be the first issue of Dick's own book where he's back.
> 
> But it's still written by Jurgens, so I don't think you should expect a quality comic. 
> 
> We've got a few months between now and 75's release, I'd just keep your ear to the ground. If it turns out we're getting a better creative team after 75 it might be more enjoyable to just wait that extra month; I'm sure 75 will be dealing with plenty of loose ends from the Ric era that most of us would rather just forget as soon as possible.


Damn, that sucks that we're not getting a new creative team after Joker War. Thanks for the detailed info.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I like that kind of complex relationship


Me too. In a sense out of all the titans. Slade always sense to focus on Dick more. Shouldn’t this be focused on more. Like it’s not just the fact Rose respects Dick more but maybe other reasons.

----------


## Ascended

> Damn, that sucks that we're not getting a new creative team after Joker War. Thanks for the detailed info.


Whoops, let me clarify.

Nightwing 75, the issue when Dick is supposed to return as Nightwing, is still written by Jurgens. After that we don't know yet if Jurgens will stay on the book or if new creators will come in.

Jurgens might be out as of issue 76 or he might stick around longer; we haven't gotten any kind of word that I know of about that. 

If I had to guess, I'd say Jurgens will stick around until DC does a relaunch at the end of Metal 2, but that's just guesswork.

----------


## bearman

In reference to the previous discussion...I liked Dicks interactions with Jesse Quick. Shell always be a  Flash character, but there enough of these young heroes around that Dick could truly be in the mentoring business.

----------


## DragonPiece

I didn't listen to it, but Jurgens did a interview on the word balloon podcast yesterday. According to someone on reddit, he's writing a few more Nightwing issues after 75 but hinted there are plans DC will announce soon regarding the books future. 

Sounds like he will get placed whenever DC announces their upcoming relaunch, still predicting Williamson takes over.

----------


## Godlike13

Smart move by DC, keep Jurgens on just long enough to kill any momentum bringing him back might actually have. 

2 years wasting away as Ric as they accomplish absolutely nothing with the idea, thanks to their reliance on boring out of date creators and an inability to actually put something together. Now the one thing this direction possibly has going for it, Dick’s return, is going to be wasted just long enough to insure no one gives a shit. It’s funny though, 5G was the original plan. Which I doubt Dick had much of a part in. So I can only imagine what they original return and send off Dick was going to get.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Smart move by DC, keep Jurgens on just long enough to kill any momentum bringing him back might actually have. 
> 
> 2 years wasting away as Ric as they accomplish absolutely nothing with the idea, thanks to their reliance on boring out of date creators and an inability to actually put something together. Now the one thing this direction possibly has going for it, Dick’s return, is going to be wasted just long enough to insure no one gives a shit. It’s funny though, 5G was the original plan. Which I doubt Dick had much of a part in. So I can only imagine what they original return and send off Dick was going to get.


Ehh, Jurgens had been forced to write Ric for a year, I'm glad he at least gets to write a few issues of the character. I don't think any momentum will be killed. Especially if we get the new creative team for the relaunch by the time Dick actually comes back.

----------


## Godlike13

Because he has been writing Ric for more then a year, is why he shouldn’t write the character anymore. Enough is enough, kill the book already and protect the return as a selling point for the next creative team. It going to lose its shine real fast after being back for a couple months of more Jurgen’s. They need to start distancing the character from Ric, not let Ric’s lazy creators try to save face with Dick.

----------


## Ascended

Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.

I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.
> 
> I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.


Exactly, it'd be pretty weird to put a new writer on right before a relaunch happens in 2-3 months. Just let Jurgens tie up loose ends from the Ric plotline so the next writer doesn't have to deal with any of that.

----------


## Badou

Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.

----------


## Restingvoice

Where do you prefer Nightwing keeps his ice cream a stick?
- Strapped to his gloves
- Inserted into oversized gloves
- Strapped to his boots
- Inserted into oversized boots
- Strapped behind his back on a Y strap
- Strapped behind his back on an X Strap
- Strapped behind his back, on the waist, horizontally, one atop of the other
- Strapped on the side of his waist vertically attached to a belt
- Up his ass

Also how many pairs should he carry? He has at least
- The regular smooth one that can also double as a line launcher that he can bounce 27 times
- The ones with smooth grip but spikey heads
- The electric ones with larger heads that lights up

----------


## Light of Justice

> Where do you prefer Nightwing keeps his ice cream a stick?
> - Strapped to his gloves
> - Inserted into oversized gloves
> - Strapped to his boots
> - Inserted into oversized boots
> - Strapped behind his back on a Y strap
> - Strapped behind his back on an X Strap
> - Strapped behind his back, on the waist, horizontally, one atop of the other
> - Strapped on the side of his waist vertically attached to a belt
> ...


Ice cream? Oh, you mean escrima stick. Sorry my glutton self was blanked for a second. For simplicity in real life, personally I prefer on side of waist attached to belt, but if he put his escrima stick behind his back on X strap, it will make cooler withdraw scene. I like the electric ones, not very fond of spiky ones.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.


Yeah Batfam is in the dark place now, except maybe Tim, and some of his friends are fucked up (Roy died, Wally..you know, at least what happened to Donna is already over). And I don't know this sudden writers fondness of using KGBeast, but if KGBeast is real person I have to applaud his dedication for his jobs. After he shot Dick he got horribly beaten by Batman, then he heals(?), takes job from unstable person then almost lost his life if not because Batgirl's help of all people, then get arrested by police, the he escapes(?) and get his fake arm chopped by murderous Damian. After all that shits, he still thinks for his credibility as assassin. Truly admirable.

----------


## Badou

> Yeah Batfam is in the dark place now, except maybe Tim, and some of his friends are fucked up (Roy died, Wally..you know, at least what happened to Donna is already over). And I don't know this sudden writers fondness of using KGBeast, but if KGBeast is real person I have to applaud his dedication for his jobs. After he shot Dick he got horribly beaten by Batman, then he heals(?), takes job from unstable person then almost lost his life if not because Batgirl's help of all people, then get arrested by police, the he escapes(?) and get his fake arm chopped by murderous Damian. After all that shits, he still thinks for his credibility as assassin. Truly admirable.


I completely forgot about the Donna thing, but I guess it doesn't matter too much since Dick and Donna aren't really close anymore. Plus Dick has been controlled/brainwashed by the Owls and Joker himself since Donna was controlled by the Batman Who Laughs thing, lol.

----------


## Godlike13

> Assuming we get a big line-wide relaunch of some kind after Metal, with a new creative team for Nightwing and probably a new #1 on the cover (possibly a combined number....200 and something I guess?) that'll provide a solid push for the book. It'll be as part of the post-Metal relaunch event so it'll just be one of many titles but it's still a wave Nightwing will ride.
> 
> I think right now it's just a really weird position. Dick returning as Nightwing should be a big deal and warrant a new creative team....but that relaunch is likely gonna hit in a few months anyway, presumably with some new continuity and various stunts, gimmicks, and directions to catch attention. So a new creator coming in right now would probably just be treading water until the post-Metal relaunch anyway. I feel like there aren't a ton of options between now and Metal's ending, and none of them are all that great.


End it and let the main series lie till the relaunch. They got the JL Metal Tie-in to hold readers off. Selling Nightwing post Ric is going to be hard as it is now, the post-Metal relaunch is something overall for DC but his return is an individual selling point on top of that for his next series. Which is all the character individually really has at this point. Jurgen's run is insultingly simplistic and creatively bone dry, it would literally take two pages to rap up his lose ends. Loose ends that people don't really even care about. Letting Jurgen's drag out things even more only serves to let Jurgen's try to save face and bleed whatever readers are left of those very last drops, with just more of his no effort and needlessly dragged out boring crap. The more they they let that continue, the worse the character's image becomes, the harder it becomes for the character to sell.

----------


## Ascended

> End it and let the main series lie till the relaunch. They got the JL Metal Tie-in to hold readers off. Selling Nightwing post Ric is going to be hard as it is now, the post-Metal relaunch is something overall for DC but his return is an individual selling point on top of that for his next series. Which is all the character individually really has at this point. Jurgen's run is insultingly simplistic and creatively bone dry, it would literally take two pages to rap up his lose ends. Loose ends that people don't really even care about. Letting Jurgen's drag out things even more only serves to let Jurgen's try to save face and bleed whatever readers are left of those very last drops, with just more of his no effort and needlessly dragged out boring crap. The more they they let that continue, the worse the character's image becomes, the harder it becomes for the character to sell.


You're kinda screwed either way. You cancel the book for a couple months right after Dick returns as Nightwing and that's not helping him. You start a new direction with new creators and they'll only get a couple issues before the presumed post-Metal relaunch so those early issues probably can't go anywhere or set anything up. You let Jurgens get a few more issues in just to spin some wheels and....you've got Jurgens spinning wheels. 

At this point, it's been two years of Ric....I doubt another two or three issues will make much difference. The damage Ric was going to do has already been done. Who knows? Jurgens can write better than what he's been doing in Nightwing, maybe he'll knock out a couple issues that aren't complete garbage, without all the Ric crap to deal with. And if not....well, at the rate he's pacing the story it'll take two-three issues just to clear the board and get rid of the fakewings and everything else.

And we'll have Dick in Justice League, which will provide a big boost to his visibility leading into post-Metal, so at least there's that (assuming they don't screw him over in that book too). It's a sh*t situation no matter how you cut it, I figure no matter what DC does everything is basically a wash until post-Metal. Once that series is over, we'll see what they do with Nightwing and if they have any intention of, you know, actually putting in any effort at all.

----------


## Godlike13

The current book is so bad that canceling it would help him. Its about either using "The Return of Nightwing" as selling point to allow Jurgen's to continue to spin his wheels for a couple months, or using it to help launch the next series. They are letting Jugen's, the lowest selling Nightwing writer, get the first word on Dick being back and water it down. Making it far less special for the next team. Letting the same no draw, boring creators, bury Dick's return with their complacently is just wasteful. It would be better if they end it so they can protect the return as a selling point as much as they can for what comes next.

----------


## Ascended

Maybe if decisions like this were up to the Nightwing writers we'd get something like that. But it's not the Nightwing book driving the bus, it's the Batman title and what's good for Dick's solo isn't really their problem or consideration. And it shouldn't be; they're writing Batman not Nightwing, they should focus on their own book; it's editorial's job to make sure Nightwing is treated like a solo IP (since, y'know, he has a solo) and they don't care enough to protect the title's interests. 

I'm not arguing it's not wasteful or stupid that Jurgens is staying on the book after Dick's return. I'm just saying the last couple years have been nothing but a waste, so what's another couple issues on top of all that? When Metal wraps and DC does the inevitable line-wide relaunch that'll get Nightwing some attention and provide incentive for readers; what happens right now is....basically a lost cause no matter what they do. I don't think a few more issues under Jurgens is gonna hurt Dick any more than he's already been hurt.

I bet you ten bucks that, when Metal is done and Nightwing launches with a new creative team and a new numbering, it'll be treated like he's just come back to the costume. DC will pretend the gap between then and 75 doesn't exist.

----------


## Godlike13

DC treating its market base like its made up of simpletons would be ignorant on there part. They do it, but we shouldn’t just accept it. That was a major problem with the Ric run. DC can try to pretend the gap between 75 doesn’t exists but readers will see Nightwing being back for multiple months, under the same creator they haven’t been interested in, continuing to do more boring filler regardless. Shops to will see it too and use the previous series at its end as a basis for their orders and where they think the new one will level off. They are wasting moments they can use to help sell his next series like his return, or his first confrontations with KG Beast, so their protected creators that no longer really generate can still have something to do, just like they did with Ric itself. 

This is basic character protection. Oh one more loss won’t hurt, one more bad appearance won’t hurt, one more bad writer won’t hurt, one or more months of the same creators won’t hurt. But these things catch up, Nightwing is barely viable as it is thanks to this kind of thinking. 
The next series was always going to inherit the ramifications of Ric, and now they are wasting the few selling points Dick might have had going into his next series for a couple months of fruitless busy work. That’s going to hurt. Dick being back isn’t going to be as fresh after months of being back with filler, the second confrontation with the man who shot him isn’t going to carry the same impact, ect, ect. Not ending the book is just going to make things even harder for the next team and series, and now they now will have less potential moments to build with.

 Old dudes like Lobdell and Jurgen’s never cared, cause they were never really invested in the character, his readers, or what was being done to begin with. And how they perform doesn’t seem to matter. This is a big reason Ric turned out like it did, its was never theirs as they were just filling in the boxes for DC. Even if it’s just for a couple more month, by continuing to not put the series out it’s misery, and feeding those same going no where creators even more moments and selling points, but now with Dick. Just further hurts the character’s viability going forward.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Honestly, I prefer this. Nightwing never should've been taken off the board the way he was, so I'd rather his return is done outside of a new relaunch. The new book or direction should be good enough to stand on its own legs, and if it isn't, then oh well. Allowing it to ride the hype while being another empty, direction-less story the way Rebirth more or less was (really, that book being good at any point is just due to Seeley caring and being a good writer, the book itself was nothing), that would be worse imo.

That said, I'd also prefer the book just ends with #76 if not #75, assuming there's a relaunch in the works as we're all thinking.

----------


## Digifiend

> In reference to the previous discussion...I liked Dicks interactions with Jesse Quick. Shell always be a  Flash character, but there enough of these young heroes around that Dick could truly be in the mentoring business.


Well, Jesse is just as connected to the Justice Society, and, as I assume you know, is also a former Titan. Now that she's about to be brought back, there's no reason she can't be used, and not necessarily in a Flash title.



> Are there any loose ends to tie up? The whole Ric saga has been really sparse in terms of introducing actually plots despite going on for 2 years, but I guess that is what happens when a 3rd of each issue is just recapping what happened in the previous one. All we have are Bea, the fake Nightwings, and the Owls I guess, but I don't want to see any of them again in this story unless it is Jurgens killing them off. In the new solicits he is going to have Dick go after KGBeast to try and tie it back to Batman #55, but I don't even care about that. All I'd really want to see before some relaunch would be Jurgens addressing Dick learning about everything that happened to Wally and what he did during Heroes in Crisis, or things like Dick (not fucking Ric like what we had) finding out Alfred is dead and Damian had to watch him die. Actual important things like that an actual person would be desperate to find out about, but we won't get any of that.


There's a few things to wrap up. Sap, aka Nightwing Prime, is currently in the hospital, being watched over by two of the other three faux-Nightwings, after being attacked by Joker. They are, however, already considering giving it up, having just realised it was Joker and not Talon who targeted them. They finally realised they're in over their heads. The Bea relationship needs ending somehow. Dick will need to be updated on the status of the Bat family, and what's happened to both Titans teams (his own and Damian's) as well as Wally. As you say, he needs to grieve for Alfred, as though he knew of his death, he wasn't emotionally attached at the time. And they'll probably want to link into Death Metal: Justice League.

----------


## Badou

> There's a few things to wrap up. Sap, aka Nightwing Prime, is currently in the hospital, being watched over by two of the other three faux-Nightwings, after being attacked by Joker. They are, however, already considering giving it up, having just realised it was Joker and not Talon who targeted them. They finally realised they're in over their heads. The Bea relationship needs ending somehow. Dick will need to be updated on the status of the Bat family, and what's happened to both Titans teams (his own and Damian's) as well as Wally. As you say, he needs to grieve for Alfred, as though he knew of his death, he wasn't emotionally attached at the time. And they'll probably want to link into Death Metal: Justice League.


I thought the Nightwing Prime guy died in the hospital? I only skimmed a pirated copy of the issue so I don't remember it clearly though. The thing with Bea is that Jurgens is going to address her situation given the solicit, but she is also a character no one cares about and will be forgotten for good after it. So it is a bit frustrating wasting more time on a character that has no value in any future story when people already don't like the story she is in now. 

But if reading comics for as long as I have has taught me anything is that the actual important things readers would be interested in, like what happened to Wally in Heroes in Crisis, won't be touched on in Nightwing because it was never present in the Ric story. Jurgens isn't going to suddenly touch on the Heroes in Crisis story and its fallout that is a year old now when they purposefully ignored it. Creators like to keep these stories self contained. Even the Alfred thing will probably not be dealt with other than a quick panel at most given they think that special Alfred funeral issue was enough for it. Same with the Titans. They won't be touched on either since they were never present in the Nightwing story. It is likely that the issues after #75 will be just tying into Death Metal like you said given they don't really have anything else.

----------


## Rac7d*

How do we get bea. Out

----------


## Drako

Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.



https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/

----------


## Godlike13

The only loose ends are a the Nightwing team that has already pretty much fallen to the wayside, and Bea. Both of which can be tied up rather quickly. Simply stating that he’s back wraps up the Nightwings, and with Bea it’s as simple telling her that he doesn’t know her and she doesn’t know him. Probably wasn’t a good idea taking advantage of a delusional hobo recovering from brain damage. None of this needs to be dagged out beyond a page or two, but Jurgen’s will probably recap an arc out of it. The Titans, Wally, Death Metal none of this has been relevant to Ric and aren’t lose ends.

----------


## 9th.

> Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/


This is so dope, I'd accept this as a redesign without the helmet. Hell he could keep it if he's on a motocycle.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

> Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/


I've seen a lot of fanart that adds a little yellow to Dick's color scheme, It works really well.

----------


## Ascended

> This is so dope, I'd accept this as a redesign without the helmet. Hell he could keep it if he's on a motocycle.


That's exactly what I was thinking. 

I saw some article CBR posted about Mora's Batman & Robin/Rangers art but I didn't know he did Nightwing too.

....I might toss a little glow effect into the bird emblem....

----------


## K. Jones

> Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/


That's rad. And eerily reminiscent of the Nightwing costume in my dream that was blue & red. Replace those yellow bits with a sort of faded blood red and swap the helmet for a more classic Nightwing facemask and it'd be pretty darned close.

----------


## Godlike13

I like the splash of yellow. The more I see it, the I want to see it for his next costume.

----------


## Ascended

I've said it before, but my kingdom for Dan Mora on a Nightwing title. 

I mean, that's basically one of the best updates to the suit I've ever seen, and Mora did it as, what, some kind of "warm up before the real work begins" screwing off fan fiction? What the crap kind of unfair, ridiculous level of talent is that? 

If I ever somehow fell into a position at DC one of the first things I'd try to do is recruit this guy for more than covers. 

I don't even know who I'd pair him with as far as writers go. Screw it, I'll let him pick who he wants. He can write the thing himself if he wants to.

Anyone on his social media? He ever say anything about doing a real DC project? Or anything about Dick?

----------


## Ascended

> That's rad. And eerily reminiscent of the Nightwing costume in my dream that was blue & red.


Maybe the theory that our comic books are reflections of real events in other realities is true and you and Mora picked up the same thing? Maybe on another earth somewhere Dick changed his costume  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

That helmet/mask is pretty cool.

----------


## dietrich

> Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/


this is so cool.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What is the best version of his costume in the modern-day? I feel like maybe they should have kept compacts in his costume. I mean what's a batfam without their gadget.  Oh and the glider needs a comeback. What's so hard about the glider that can be hidden? It fits with his daredevil nature.

----------


## Badou

> Bat Ranger Nightwing by Dan Mora.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CC_93Aelq-k/


As much as I like the simple look of his classic blue and black costume I'd be up for a complete overhaul to it with something like this. With some kind of full face mask. The classic one is just too simple and I think translates very poorly to live action, but people would probably hate it if they change too much.

----------


## OWL45

> As much as I like the simple look of his classic blue and black costume I'd be up for a complete overhaul to it with something like this. With some kind of full face mask. The classic one is just too simple and I think translates very poorly to live action, but people would probably hate it if they change too much.


I agree. This costume looks fantastic.

----------


## Digifiend

> I thought the Nightwing Prime guy died in the hospital? I only skimmed a pirated copy of the issue so I don't remember it clearly though.


The other two wouldn't have still been waiting at the hospital if he was already dead. He's just severely injured.

----------


## AmiMizuno

What's the chance of Nightwing being treated better this time around? Also if he does go back being acrobat would this help or hurt him? Like even if it was at first no Haley's Circus. Like in Bludhaven he was hired at one of the entertainment strips. Which he was looking at due to a crime situation.

----------


## Badou

> The other two wouldn't have still been waiting at the hospital if he was already dead. He's just severely injured.


In the issue the girl and black Nightwing cops were at the hospital meeting the Nightwing Prime guy after he got injured by the Joker. While he was talking to them explaining what happened it felt like he trailed off and passed out or something and I assumed he flatlined I guess.

----------


## Ascended

> What's the chance of Nightwing being treated better this time around?


We'll know in a few months. 

Jim Lee has said he'll protect the character, and I feel like so far he's been good to his word. We haven't gotten much, but Lee hasn't been in his position long and the pandemic screwed everything up. But we're getting Dick in a League arc, Snyder's got his project in the works and I see no reason for it not to be approved, Dick will soon be back as Nightwing, and the solo isn't cancelled yet. And as I learned the other day, we've got a new editor too.

But time will tell. Dick might get treated poorly in the JL arc, Snyder's story might end up being more Batman than Dick Grayson, and the solo might continue getting bottom-of-the-barrel creative teams. The new editor might be just as bad as the last one. And Dick becoming Nightwing again was likely always the endgame of the Ric saga, so it was probably gonna happen eventually whether Lee was in charge or not.

At this point, we're still dealing with Didio's DC. The stories that are still being told and/or wrapped up are stories he approved and helped set in motion, the direction of the characters are still mostly pointed where he wanted them. Or, at best, we're in a holding pattern where creators are just treading water, waiting for Jim Lee and everyone else to adjust and get their new plans (whatever they are) rolling. 

I figure we'll probably start hearing announcements this coming month; Metal 2 is supposed to wrap this fall right? We're all expecting a relaunch to follow that. August seems like a good time for DC to start laying out their new plans.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope he is treated better. That a lot of the bad storylines are more due to Dan. I do have a question if that's why in the new 52 animated movies is why Dick was treated poorly. I haven't seen the Titans live action. Is it any Good?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I hope he is treated better. That a lot of the bad storylines are more due to Dan. I do have a question if that's why in the new 52 animated movies is why Dick was treated poorly. I haven't seen the Titans live action. Is it any Good?


It has good parts and cringe parts. It should also be noted, it is far darker than the comics at the time. What's more, a number of the side characters, especially in season 1, seem more interesting than the main characters. Hawk & Dove, Doom Patrol, Donna, and Jason in season 1 overshadow the main characters for the most part.

So, if you don't mind an overall darker take on the OG Titans and the New Teen Titans, take a look at it.

----------


## Ascended

> I hope he is treated better. That a lot of the bad storylines are more due to Dan. I do have a question if that's why in the new 52 animated movies is why Dick was treated poorly. I haven't seen the Titans live action. Is it any Good?


I could be wrong but I don't think Didio had much pull with the animation guys. Pretty sure those are completely difference facets of DC and Didio only had real pull with the publishing. Isn't it Harras who would be in charge of DC's animation? But I could be wrong. 

I think it might be more of a corporate culture thing. Most businesses end up reflecting the values of management, Didio had a hate-on for Dick (and the NTT) for twenty years, and we can see that Dick's treatment slowly degraded over that time, getting lower quality creators, less emphasis on his solo development, smaller roles in Events, and the eventual devolution to "adult sidekick" status. 

I doubt Didio looked over every issue and every story arc; that likely wasn't his job, but his opinions on Dick would've influenced everyone else; want to get in good with the boss and ensure you keep getting books to write? Try to ignore Nightwing. Want that promotion from junior editor to full editor? Try to ignore Nightwing. Employees want the boss to be happy and don't want to be seen as wasting company time. So ignore the characters you know the boss doesn't believe in, and focus on what will make him happy.

If Harras doesn't have sway over the animation then it's likely a matter of the animators looking at the source material and going from that; and what they'd see is that Nightwing isn't terribly important or capable. For years, we've been getting adaptations of New52 stories; not much to work with there as far as Nightwing goes. And I generally don't watch DC cartoons but Dick seems to have done okay, for a guy who isn't a League mainstay. Not great, but what I've seen didn't really ever piss me off like the comics do.

----------


## redmax99

> I could be wrong but I don't think Didio had much pull with the animation guys. Pretty sure those are completely difference facets of DC and Didio only had real pull with the publishing. Isn't it Harras who would be in charge of DC's animation? But I could be wrong. 
> 
> I think it might be more of a corporate culture thing. Most businesses end up reflecting the values of management, Didio had a hate-on for Dick (and the NTT) for twenty years, and we can see that Dick's treatment slowly degraded over that time, getting lower quality creators, less emphasis on his solo development, smaller roles in Events, and the eventual devolution to "adult sidekick" status. 
> 
> I doubt Didio looked over every issue and every story arc; that likely wasn't his job, but his opinions on Dick would've influenced everyone else; want to get in good with the boss and ensure you keep getting books to write? Try to ignore Nightwing. Want that promotion from junior editor to full editor? Try to ignore Nightwing. Employees want the boss to be happy and don't want to be seen as wasting company time. So ignore the characters you know the boss doesn't believe in, and focus on what will make him happy.
> 
> If Harras doesn't have sway over the animation then it's likely a matter of the animators looking at the source material and going from that; and what they'd see is that Nightwing isn't terribly important or capable. For years, we've been getting adaptations of New52 stories; not much to work with there as far as Nightwing goes. And I generally don't watch DC cartoons but Dick seems to have done okay, for a guy who isn't a League mainstay. Not great, but what I've seen didn't really ever piss me off like the comics do.


jim lee was mostly involved in the animation side of things before dan quit.

----------


## Pohzee

Well, if Snyder's stepping away from DC I dunno that that bodes well for any chances of us getting that Nightwing book from him.

----------


## Drako

Snyder is still doing DC books, just not big events anymore.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Well. Dick was treated better in other movies just not the new 52 movies. Maybe one reason is simply that they didn't know how to use Dick or didn't care. They probably knew they were going to reboot anyway. Hope he will be treated better. 

I wonder sometimes in order to make a better character we have to take them out of the normal. What has Nightwing not done?

----------


## Digifiend

> Well, if Snyder's stepping away from DC I dunno that that bodes well for any chances of us getting that Nightwing book from him.


Wasn't that meant to be Black Label and not the ongoing anyway?

----------


## Ascended

Word is Snyder's Grayson book would be out of continuity, a kind of "what if Dick remained Batman?" kinda thing, but I'm not sure if anything was officially said or not. I guess in theory it could be in continuity? A "untold tales of Dick's time as Batman" maybe?

I expect that book to still happen; Snyder might be backing off but he's still doing DC books, he's still doing superheroes.....he just doesn't want to the "The Guy" at DC who does the big Events and has all his time taken up writing the big names. This Grayson project is something he wanted to do himself, so I expect he'll still make that happen. Though if he switches gears to focus on his own stuff the Grayson book might end up not happening for a while? 

So if Lee was involved in the animation stuff....someone more familiar with the cartoons will have to chime in about Dick's treatment there. Ami says Dick was treated fairly well in the non-52 adaptations but I'm not a cartoon guy and don't know enough to say how Dick was treated overall.

----------


## Konja7

> Word is Snyder's Grayson book would be out of continuity, a kind of "what if Dick remained Batman?" kinda thing, but I'm not sure if anything was officially said or not. I guess in theory it could be in continuity? A "untold tales of Dick's time as Batman" maybe?
> 
> I expect that book to still happen; Snyder might be backing off but he's still doing DC books, he's still doing superheroes.....he just doesn't want to the "The Guy" at DC who does the big Events and has all his time taken up writing the big names. This Grayson project is something he wanted to do himself, so I expect he'll still make that happen. Though if he switches gears to focus on his own stuff the Grayson book might end up not happening for a while? 
> 
> So if Lee was involved in the animation stuff....someone more familiar with the cartoons will have to chime in about Dick's treatment there. Ami says Dick was treated fairly well in the non-52 adaptations but I'm not a cartoon guy and don't know enough to say how Dick was treated overall.


If the story of Snyder is about Dick as Batman, I think that would only contribute to the idea that Nightwing is a lesser identity. And that big names only write Dick when he is Batman. 

Although I like Dick as Batman, so maybe I shouldn't complain.

----------


## Drako

I'm pretty sure Snyder already said it's a Nightwing story about how Dick and Bruce are different from each other when it comes to crime fighting.

----------


## Pohzee

Yes, but some people (frustratingly) will just use Nightwing to describe a Dick Grayson story, regardless of mantle.

----------


## Ascended

> If the story of Snyder is about Dick as Batman, I think that would only contribute to the idea that Nightwing is a lesser identity.


I said the exact same thing when we first heard about the project.

Far as I know, we have no idea what the project actually is, beyond an exploration of the differences between Dick and Bruce, and that the story will do flashbacks covering Dick's journey and development, from Robin to Nightwing to Batman to (I think?) Agent 37.

It *could* be a Nightwing story. It *could* be a DickBats story. I don't think we know for certain, but going by what I've seen Snyder say I suspect it's DickBats. But that's just a guess.

I *hope* it's Nightwing. If it's not then yes, this is just a Batman story with someone else in the cowl and it will do nothing for Nightwing himself.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I don't think anything Agent 37 ever came up, just Robin, Nightwing, and Batman.

As for animation, if you want good quality Nightwing you really only have Young Justice. The animated movies, even when decent, don't do enough of a good job with the character to be noteworthy, and besides that he rarely appears in anything else. There were those toyetic Batman animated movies, not sure whether those are still ongoing but that was decent at least.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Treat while he doesn't appear much in the animation movies at least he does a better job than the new 52. Makes you wonder if doing a animated movie for Nightwing was matter. He has the fanbase. It's just the cast that matters

----------


## Digifiend

> I said the exact same thing when we first heard about the project.
> 
> Far as I know, we have no idea what the project actually is, beyond an exploration of the differences between Dick and Bruce, and that the story will do flashbacks covering Dick's journey and development, from Robin to Nightwing to Batman to (I think?) Agent 37.
> 
> It *could* be a Nightwing story. It *could* be a DickBats story. I don't think we know for certain, but going by what I've seen Snyder say I suspect it's DickBats. But that's just a guess.
> 
> I *hope* it's Nightwing. If it's not then yes, this is just a Batman story with someone else in the cowl and it will do nothing for Nightwing himself.


He can't currently be Batman if Agent 37 is part of his history, as that came after his second stint in the cowl.

----------


## Restingvoice

Snyder's Dick Batman story is the story he didn't get to tell when he was writing that era 
That's what I remember he said in the interview, that's the only info I got, and I don't expect it to be anymore or less than that.

----------


## Ascended

> He can't currently be Batman if Agent 37 is part of his history, as that came after his second stint in the cowl.


Oh yeah, that's true.




> Snyder's Dick Batman story is the story he didn't get to tell when he was writing that era 
> That's what I remember he said in the interview, that's the only info I got, and I don't expect it to be anymore or less than that.


Yup. The only question is if Snyder will adapt the story for the current state of things or if it'll be set off on its own as either an Elseworlds or a "untold tales" story. 

From what I've heard him say, Snyder could possibly take his story, put Dick in the Nightwing suit, and have him baby sitting Gotham while Bruce is out of town and it wouldn't change much. So it's *possible* it'll be a in continuity Nightwing tale. I don't think it will be, but from what I've heard it's possible. I'm sure we'll just get DickBats, but until we know for sure I don't like to discount any options yknow?

----------


## Badou

Maybe it will have some continuity elements, but it will be its own thing. I can't imagine it will be in continuity if it is going to be a Black Label book. I think Snyder just wants to tell this retrospective Dick Grayson story about how he is as a hero compared to Bruce and go through his time as Robin, Nightwing, and Batman while being set in Gotham.

----------


## Ascended

That's what I assume. But until we get a real announcement we don't *know.*

----------


## AmiMizuno

Other than being the first Robin. What makes Dick a remember character? I think it's the fact even in the darkest hours. He is still always looking at the bright side of things. Also, I feel like that's one of the reasons I would like to see more Superman and Nightwing. Like he is the reason Dick picked that name. So why not have Dick and him hang out. Although now that D went Clark and Superman are the same I don't know

----------


## Wingin' It

What are your hopes/expectations from Nightwing's return in Batman 99/100?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

My expectations are pretty low. I'm expecting a pretty by the numbers appearance for Nightwing: Dick shows up, he acts friendly, makes some quips, they do some DickBabs teasing, and he encourages Bruce. They won't acknowledge Alfred, Roy, Wally, anything with the Titans, or the general state of the DCU at all, and they definitely won't touch on Bruce slapping Tim or pushing Damian away.

My only hope is that the Dick-Slade rivalry is properly revived, if only briefly. It happening in a Batman event would at least mean it'll be harder to ignore again lol.

----------


## Wingin' It

> My expectations are pretty low. I'm expecting a pretty by the numbers appearance for Nightwing: Dick shows up, he acts friendly, makes some quips, they do some DickBabs teasing, and he encourages Bruce. They won't acknowledge Alfred, Roy, Wally, anything with the Titans, or the general state of the DCU at all, and they definitely won't touch on Bruce slapping Tim or pushing Damian away.
> 
> My only hope is that the Dick-Slade rivalry is properly revived, if only briefly. It happening in a Batman event would at least mean it'll be harder to ignore again lol.


I agree, but they won't really have time to touch on things that happened so long in the past I assume unless it's in Dick's solo title. I too got excited when Tynion touched on Dick and Slade's rivalry a few weeks ago.

Speaking of, do we have any idea what the plans are for the Nightwing title after Joker War/Metal concludes? I know Jurgens is staying on after Joker War, but I thought there were rumors of another creative team down the pipeline.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> What are your hopes/expectations from Nightwing's return in Batman 99/100?


His reaction to Alfred's death to be heartfelt. I don't have any hope for anything else. 




> I agree, but they won't really have time to touch on things that happened so long in the past I assume unless it's in Dick's solo title. I too got excited when Tynion touched on Dick and Slade's rivalry a few weeks ago.


When was this?

----------


## disillusion386

> What are your hopes/expectations from Nightwing's return in Batman 99/100?


Low expectations. It's a Batman book. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Ric saga will come down to maybe one or two lines to acknowledge it happened without moving much of Dick's status forward.

----------


## Wingin' It

Monkey's paw, but I would really like to see a status quo shift for Dick, especially now that Jason is coming into the fold a bit more as an ally. I know all spoilers have hinted as to the "batfamily" becoming closer post Joker war, but honestly Dick seems to get hurt more often than not when he's close with Bruce. Some of my favorite storytelling ages are when he's estranged from the "family" to a certain extent. 

Dick was basically hung out to dry by...everyone. Babs and Alfred probably tried the hardest, but he was left to his own devices after an extremely traumatic injury. I'm probably trying to make lemons out of lemonade here, but I would like to see this acknowledged and impact his relationship with the Bats; especially Bruce. I'd never see him turn down family in distress, but a little less "how can I help?" as Tom King put it. The frustrating thing with Dick is he rarely acknowledges his own trauma because he doesn't like to put things on other people or slow himself down, but I would like to see the consequences of this mindset. 

Thought I do see the virtue of sweeping this entire era under the rug as well once the book relaunches or gets a new creative team.

----------


## Ascended

I have no real expectations for Dick's return. A line or two talking about his injury and then standard crap where Dick cheerleads for Bruce and talks about how Batman is just the niftiest, golly keenest dude ever and he's the only man who can possibly win the day. Or whatever. 

And that's more than I want already. Dick's return, and indeed all the major moments in his story, should be happening in his own gods damn book instead of Batman's. The argument that this will get more attention does have some merit, but not a ton, since so many of us keep apace of things online. And it just reinforces the "sidekick" mentality.

----------


## Wingin' It

> I have no real expectations for Dick's return. A line or two talking about his injury and then standard crap where Dick cheerleads for Bruce and talks about how Batman is just the niftiest, golly keenest dude ever and he's the only man who can possibly win the day. Or whatever. 
> 
> And that's more than I want already. Dick's return, and indeed all the major moments in his story, should be happening in his own gods damn book instead of Batman's. The argument that this will get more attention does have some merit, but not a ton, since so many of us keep apace of things online. And it just reinforces the "sidekick" mentality.


I really miss the days when Dick would challenge Bruce BECAUSE he believed he could do better. Like, he and Bruce would physically fight more than any of the other bat-allies because Dick and Bruce both have a temper, and Dick wouldn't hesitate to get in his face about stuff if he felt like he needed someone to do so. He was never a yes man, and not that he has really been depicted that way a ton...but their dynamic has been lacking this flavor since the reboot.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I really miss the days when Dick would challenge Bruce BECAUSE he believed he could do better. Like, he and Bruce would physically fight more than any of the other bat-allies because Dick and Bruce both have a temper, and Dick wouldn't hesitate to get in his face about stuff if he felt like he needed someone to do so. He was never a yes man, and not that he has really been depicted that way a ton...but their dynamic has been lacking this flavor since the reboot.


Nice is all the Nightwing interactions have time for these days it seems.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Nice is all the Nightwing interactions have time for these days it seems.


Right? That is so frustrating. Is Dick an empathetic guy? Absolutely. Can he often be stubborn and live up to his name in the heat of the moment? Also yes.

----------


## Ascended

> I really miss the days when Dick would challenge Bruce BECAUSE he believed he could do better. Like, he and Bruce would physically fight more than any of the other bat-allies because Dick and Bruce both have a temper, and Dick wouldn't hesitate to get in his face about stuff if he felt like he needed someone to do so. He was never a yes man, and not that he has really been depicted that way a ton...but their dynamic has been lacking this flavor since the reboot.


Absolutely agreed. 

I also think these two know how to push each others' buttons better than anyone, and they end up intentionally pissing each other off when they start to argue. 

Durarara is right about Dick getting forced into the "nice one" role too. Somewhere along the line, the various ex-Robins all got pushed into a single definition; Dick's the nice one, Jason is the angry one, Tim's the smart one. I know King said this outright in HiC but I think it's been going on a long time.

I really miss the "dangerous" side of Dick.

----------


## Drako

More Tokusatsu Nightwing by Dan Mora. This design is so good, i wish it was official.


https://www.instagram.com/p/CDfW0vuFzpH/

----------


## Wingin' It

> More Tokusatsu Nightwing by Dan Mora. This design is so good, i wish it was official.
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CDfW0vuFzpH/


That's a sharp outfit, Nightwing. Careful, you might puncture the hull of an empire-class Fire Nation battleship, leaving thousands to drown at sea.


....because it's so sharp.

----------


## Godlike13

I could dig it as Dick’s take on a power armor.

----------


## WonderNight

> More Tokusatsu Nightwing by Dan Mora. This design is so good, i wish it was official.
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CDfW0vuFzpH/


 This should be nightwing's kryptonian armor Clark gives him for big events.

----------


## WonderNight

> I have no real expectations for Dick's return. A line or two talking about his injury and then standard crap where Dick cheerleads for Bruce and talks about how Batman is just the niftiest, golly keenest dude ever and he's the only man who can possibly win the day. Or whatever. 
> 
> And that's more than I want already. Dick's return, and indeed all the major moments in his story, should be happening in his own gods damn book instead of Batman's. The argument that this will get more attention does have some merit, but not a ton, since so many of us keep apace of things online. And it just reinforces the "sidekick" mentality.


The argument that it being in batman's book get more attention is kinda true, but it does more harm than good in the long run because if all of the big character defining thing for dick keeps happening in other books. Than why am I reading nightwing?  

Nightwing just ends up being a side book for a side character in dick. If his book is not going to matter to the dcu at least let it matter to himself.

----------


## Ascended

> The argument that it being in batman's book get more attention is kinda true, but it does more harm than good in the long run because if all of the big character defining thing for dick keeps happening in other books. Than why am I reading nightwing?


That's what I'm saying. Yes, more readers will see Dick back as Nightwing when it happens in a Batman book.....but so what? If those readers are interested in Nightwing, they likely already know he's got a solo. Nightwing has been on the stands every month for years, his series is not a big secret. 

And that Dan Mora art.....hot damn. Why isn't this guy on a DC book already?

----------


## dietrich

> Low expectations. It's a Batman book. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Ric saga will come down to maybe one or two lines to acknowledge it happened without moving much of Dick's status forward.


This. I dislike that he's return is in another character's title in a story that isn't about him. Dick's return should be done in a story centred on his character. Handling it like this shows that nothing has changed

----------


## dropkickjake

> More Tokusatsu Nightwing by Dan Mora. This design is so good, i wish it was official.
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CDfW0vuFzpH/


that could be a decent Nightwing and Flamebird design!


So we are still waiting to see if Dick gets a new creative team? Has it become clear we are stuck with this one or is there hope?

----------


## Pohzee

I'm torn because keeping the current "eh" creators will blunt any potential of momentum for a return. But I also don't want a hot new creative team to even have to touch upon this garbage.

----------


## Ascended

> that could be a decent Nightwing and Flamebird design!
> 
> So we are still waiting to see if Dick gets a new creative team? Has it become clear we are stuck with this one or is there hope?


I don't think we know yet how long Jurgens will be around. We know he's doing 75, but past that I haven't anything about creative teams.

As for that Dan Mora art....if we could take the red suit with the arm stripe, and use the blue coloring, I think we'd have a pretty damn near perfect update to the suit.

Replacing the full helmet for a more recognizable mask too, obviously.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Claude

> The argument that it being in batman's book get more attention is kinda true, but it does more harm than good in the long run because if all of the big character defining thing for dick keeps happening in other books. Than why am I reading nightwing?  
> 
> Nightwing just ends up being a side book for a side character in dick. If his book is not going to matter to the dcu at least let it matter to himself.


Yeah, the absolute best case scenario for Joker War is that Dick takes something *out* of the _Batman_ book, that _Batman_-but-not-_Nightwing_ readers will want to follow.

As others have said, the best bet for that is Deathstroke. Let the story have a big "Deathstroke vs Nightwing" moment, Nightwing beating Slade when Bruce can't because of their shared history, and then spin the repercussions of that into a new _Nightwing_ or _Titans_ run and hope people follow.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Yeah, the absolute best case scenario for Joker War is that Dick takes something *out* of the _Batman_ book, that _Batman_-but-not-_Nightwing_ readers will want to follow.
> 
> As others have said, the best bet for that is Deathstroke. Let the story have a big "Deathstroke vs Nightwing" moment, Nightwing beating Slade when Bruce can't because of their shared history, and then spin the repercussions of that into a new _Nightwing_ or _Titans_ run and hope people follow.


I just hope they didn't think Nightwing being the one to take down Punchline would be seen as a compelling win for a returning Nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

I doubt they’ll even have Nightwing take Punchline down. At this point current bat office is more invested in her then they are him.

----------


## dietrich

> Well. Dick was treated better in other movies just not the new 52 movies. Maybe one reason is simply that they didn't know how to use Dick or didn't care. They probably knew they were going to reboot anyway. Hope he will be treated better. 
> 
> I wonder sometimes in order to make a better character we have to take them out of the normal. What has Nightwing not done?


curious how exactly was he treated badly?
I don't believe that they didn't care or know how to use the character. The same people gave us gems like Caped Crusaders. I know they planned a 3rd Titans movie set just after Star arrived on Earth so focused on Dick's time as Robin.

Shame since that would have meant the shared Universe would have a movie for all the key stages in his history aside from Grayson. Celebrating his successes and his most successful identities

The movie we never got [Robin]- The OG Robin founding member of Teen Titans
Judas contract - The NTT Nightwing TT
Bad Blood - DickBATS
Hush - Nightwing solo Hero and son of Bruce wayne [this movie gave us more of Bruce and Dick interacting like father and son. It reflected their closeness.

I think the people behind the movies know the character well. They cared enough to come up with a plan on how to cram 80 years of comics history into approx 15 hrs [ Total runtime of all the batverse and TT focused movies set in the shared universe] while highlighting some of what makes him such an enduring character.

Alfred, Bruce and Dick as a family. THE Batfamily - pretty much conveyed in the way they interact.

Even his patience, encouragement, frustration and positive influence on Damian - Son of batman sparring scene and TT v JL  Damian joining the TT

His maturity, heroic nature, sense of humour, his ability to easily handle Damian without ever getting down to his level, The only Robin who has never seriously thrown hands with a 10 year old - Son of batman where Dick easily takes down Damian and ties him up in a comedic fashion. Restraining him instead of fighting him.

 A true Hero. Dick is the only batcharacter who has spent pretty much all his life as a hero on the field [He started at age 8 and is now an adult, Bruce spent years training becoming batman as a young man] - JLD: AW - Dick literally gives up his life saving Damian

Dick as the other head of the batfamily - Bad blood.  Bruce goes missing Dick steps up and rallies everyone together.

Even the fact that Bruce is often cruel, uncaring and a D bag to Dick is conveyed in the scene where Dick is pinned to the wall and Bruce rather than going to free him hugs Damian.


The animation team treated him well especially when you consider the limitations {total runtime of all the movies as mentioned prior]
And the Fact that he was a lead in just 2 of the movies.

We got Dick bats, RobinDick, Dick and Deathstroke long running feud, Nightwing, his relationship with Starfire etc to say they didn't know what to with him must be a joke or sarcasm because they clearly did a lot.

Curious what would you have done with him?

----------


## TheCape

> I doubt theyll even have Nightwing take Punchline down. At this point current bat office is more invested in her then they are him.


Punchline?

----------


## Tzigone

> Punchline?


Haven't read her, but I understand her to be the Joker's new girlfriend. DC hoping for another Harley.

I, really, really dislike Nightwing (or any other Batfam) fighting members of some sort of "Joker-family" - they done way too many Luthors for the Supers, too.  Keeps the the spin-off heroes less distinctive and fighting baddies than can only be subordinate.  Keeps those heroes subordinate that way, instead of letting them develop their own villains and attain a more equal view from fans. Keeps them off the top tier.  Dick managed it once, but they drug him back to subordinate status and have kept him there more-or-less since.  But everyone's living in Batman's world these days. Just heard about a lot more Bat-theme in Legion of Superheroes.

----------


## Wingin' It

> curious how exactly was he treated badly?
> I don't believe that they didn't care or know how to use the character. The same people gave us gems like Caped Crusaders. I know they planned a 3rd Titans movie set just after Star arrived on Earth so focused on Dick's time as Robin.
> 
> Shame since that would have meant the shared Universe would have a movie for all the key stages in his history aside from Grayson. Celebrating his successes and his most successful identities
> 
> The movie we never got [Robin]- The OG Robin founding member of Teen Titans
> Judas contract - The NTT Nightwing TT
> Bad Blood - DickBATS
> Hush - Nightwing solo Hero and son of Bruce wayne [this movie gave us more of Bruce and Dick interacting like father and son. It reflected their closeness.
> ...


I think a lot of people were frustrated with those films because Dick jobs in almost every one of them. Even to Damian when they spar, which was absolutely ridiculous. I have no complaints about his personality in these films but they really downplayed his skills to make other characters look better, whether it be Bruce or Damian or some random bad guy. It became a running gag; how is Nightwing going to break his arm in this movie?

I didn't even get the Dick and Damian bonding that I hoped I'd see in these movies, not even the one where they "adapted" (and I use that word lightly) Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin run.  It wasn't a celebration of Batman coming full circle like the comics were, it was to show that Bruce is the ultimate hero by having Dick tell him he's just the bestest ever after Bruce takes him down while under mind control. Ok then. 

Damian calling Dick his brother in JL:AW felt really unearned, because at no point did I get the impression that Damian moved beyond tolerating him, which is a vast difference to their relationship in the comics. 

Hush had Bruce doubt that Dick could take down a small ring of thugs by himself and offer to rush in and help, had him job yet again to Scarecrow, and had him fall flat on his face while practicing....I get it was supposed to be a comedic moment, but these movies love making him look incompetent to service a joke. 

The only thing Grayson-centric that I really enjoyed in these films was Dick's relationship with Kory. His relationships with Bruce and Damian largely left me disappointed, if I am honest. Dick's been a hero all his life. Show us he has the skillset to match, because he does. I don't expect him to win every fight but yeesh these movies made me roll my eyes.

----------


## TheCape

> Haven't read her, but I understand her to be the Joker's new girlfriend. DC hoping for another Harley.
> 
> I, really, really dislike Nightwing (or any other Batfam) fighting members of some sort of "Joker-family" - they done way too many Luthors for the Supers, too.  Keeps the the spin-off heroes less distinctive and fighting baddies than can only be subordinate.  Keeps those heroes subordinate that way, instead of letting them develop their own villains and attain a more equal view from fans. Keeps them off the top tier.  Dick managed it once, but they drug him back to subordinate status and have kept him there more-or-less since.  But everyone's living in Batman's world these days. Just heard about a lot more Bat-theme in Legion of Superheroes.


Well that sounds lame, i guest that i'm not missing much ignoring the current Batman title. I don't remember any sort of Luthor family, beyond his sister thougth and she pretty much dissapeared after Darkseid Wars and that was the only time she was an enemy. There was also his niece who appeared in Superboy's solo with Johns and then Lemire, but she was a supporting characther not an enemy. Unless there is something happening in current Superman titles that i'm not aware of (still reading the second trade of both series by Bendis).

----------


## Tzigone

> Well that sounds lame, i guest that i'm not missing much ignoring the current Batman title. I don't remember any sort of Luthor family, beyond his sister thougth and she pretty much dissapeared after Darkseid Wars and that was the only time she was an enemy. There was also his niece who appeared in Superboy's solo with Johns and then Lemire, but she was a supporting characther not an enemy. Unless there is something happening in current Superman titles that i'm not aware of (still reading the second trade of both series by Bendis).


She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before)  There was  Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE.  And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.

Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps.  I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular.  And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.

----------


## Wingin' It

> She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before)  There was  Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE.  And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.
> 
> Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps.  I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular.  And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.


Yep. Right now they're building her up, so Batgirl, Batman, and others have jobbed to her already and the train ain't slowing down until Joker War is over. Skill doesn't really factor in (if indeed it ever does, really) because ultimately what matters most is what the writers need from the character. In this case, it's the Batfamily running with their tails between their legs until they aren't and gather strength for a comeback, and for Punchline to have some sticking power with all the hard work they put into designing and marketing her.

----------


## TheCape

So we are getting that scene in King's Batman where Thomas beat all batfamily after being beaten first, but now Nightwing can join the fun...awesome  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## redmax99

> She may not have been an enemy, but I definitely found it a rework "Lex and Clark were friends in their youth" (plus, he'd already been given Clark's powers, Clark's hometown, and Clark's parents - so much less distinctive than he was before)  There was  Nasthalthia Luthor who used to cause trouble for Supergirl back in pre-COIE.  And I'm told another little Luthor showed up in the last Super Sons - I didn't read that series, because my sister told me it wasn't good. I did read the earlier ones.
> 
> Punchline may turn out to be the next big thing - most characters don't succeed, but she's associated with the Joker, and that helps.  I freaking hate Batman Who Laughs, but he's extremely popular.  And if they think it can help with another success, they will absolutely make her curbstomp Nightwing.


yeah but he wasnt a real luthor he was just an alien from another universe who thought the villians were cool heck we had a joker kid who actually was the good guy.

and as for punchline, she beat barbra and harley, she can worf  all the bat kids.

----------


## AmiMizuno

But Dick is different. Shouldn't he win against Punchline?

----------


## Tzigone

> But Dick is different. Shouldn't he win against Punchline?


Well, I think he should.  But I don't think DC is going to agree with me.

----------


## Wingin' It

> But Dick is different. Shouldn't he win against Punchline?


Yes, so should have Batgirl and Harley and Batman. But skill level doesn't really matter when they're trying to introduce a new baddie. 

Also, she's powered by the ClownForce, which we all know is not only a multiversal threat but easily surpasses the SpeedForce in terms of raw wankery.

----------


## redmax99

> Yes, so should have Batgirl and Harley and Batman. But skill level doesn't really matter when they're trying to introduce a new baddie. 
> 
> Also, she's powered by the ClownForce, which we all know is not only a multiversal threat but easily surpasses the SpeedForce in terms of raw wankery.


harleys not a fighter, she fights with a mallet or a gun, between punchline and her it was a fair fight. the bat kids on the other hand...i think if writers want to make her a vital character have her go up against the kids that actually wont hold back in a brutal fight to show her why gotham is unforgiving and if she wants in this life why she shoudn't go up against some one like jason, cass or damian and she stick to the kids who would play with her.

----------


## Wingin' It

> harleys not a fighter, she fights with a mallet or a gun, between punchline and her it was a fair fight. the bat kids on the other hand...i think if writers want to make her a vital character have her go up against the kids that actually wont hold back in a brutal fight to show her why gotham is unforgiving and if she wants in this life why she shoudn't go up against some one like jason, cass or damian and she stick to the kids who would play with her.


Harley is absolutely a fighter, she's a martial artist and gymnast, plus with Ivy's enhancements she's a borderline metahuman at this point. 

So long as a character isn't fighting lethally (like Jason, Cass and Damian no longer do), they are by definition "holding back."

----------


## dietrich

@ Wingin it

Jobbing. I know some fans like super bad ass characters and no one likes seeing a character they like lose in a fight they should win. Dick never felt like an incompetent hero or an unskilled fighter to me in the movies.

The sparring scene to me was Damian catching a distracted Dick off guard in a sparring session as a they talked. It can happen especially when one is clearly putting in more effort and really trying like Damian was through out the scene. Dick's moves seemed effortless and smooth up that point.

I didn't see it as jobbing nor did I ever get anything to indicate that Damian's skills were anywhere near Dicks.

I wasn't expecting to win against Bruce and Bruce rushing out to help him in Hush I interpreted as Worry.

Morrison's batman and Robin, Bruce's return, the mission to rescue him and Batman Inc in under 90 mins

Damian and Dick's gradual bonding adapting what took years in the comics to develop organically It's never going to be the same as the source but I feel it was well done.

They are loose adaptations. Storylines 'based on' the comics.

Damian still acts like he tolerates Dick even to this day in the comics only letting his real feeling come through when Dick is either in a coma, when he fears he's about to lose him, when he's overcome with emotion extreme happiness when Dick return's from Spyral, Panicked like he was in Nightwing or about to die like in Batman and Robin. That's when the mask slips.

The TT movies they felt like brothers to me. Even in Batman Badblood they felt like brothers though not as much as they did in the TT movies.

As some one who doesn't really care about feats and power scaling I didn't have a problem with how his skills where portrayed. I don't even recall a couple of the examples you gave. 

I do recall when it hit me that the verse was doing key stages in his history and being really happy because now I can show my non comic reading friends why I talk about him so much and prove that he's more than Robin and or adult Robin from the live action movies [the number of arguments, explanations and correcting of facts talks I've had since i got into comics] 

Nothing is prefect and every movie has flaws but I don't think that 
Didn't know what to do with Dick's character.
Not Caring about the character 
Treating him badly 
are true.

Fighting skills not being accurately reflected sure though not imo

----------


## redmax99

> Harley is absolutely a fighter, she's a martial artist and gymnast, plus with Ivy's enhancements she's a borderline metahuman at this point. 
> 
> So long as a character isn't fighting lethally (like Jason, Cass and Damian no longer do), they are by definition "holding back."


what i meant when wont hold back let jason,cass and damian beat her, with an inch of her life. let them go loose on her i'll take cass out the scenario because she doesn't kill. look at this point i'll take anybody because they want me to believe a college girl with no fighting skill can take batgirl or any train fighter, because knives can only take you so far.

----------


## Wingin' It

> @ Wingin it
> 
> Jobbing. I know some fans like super bad ass characters and no one likes seeing a character they like lose in a fight they should win. Dick never felt like an incompetent hero or an unskilled fighter to me in the movies.
> 
> The sparring scene to me was Damian catching a distracted Dick off guard in a sparring session as a they talked. It can happen especially when one is clearly putting in more effort and really trying like Damian was through out the scene. Dick's moves seemed effortless and smooth up that point.
> 
> I didn't see it as jobbing nor did I ever get anything to indicate that Damian's skills were anywhere near Dicks.
> 
> I wasn't expecting to win against Bruce and Bruce rushing out to help him in Hush I interpreted as Worry.
> ...


I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I respect your opinion, but it made me frustrated personally. However, I am glad you liked these movies and it ignited more of your passion for the character.

----------


## K7P5V

*Secret Origins* (1986) #50

The Evolution of...

*Dick Grayson*


*Art*: George Perez

----------


## Rac7d*

> Harley is absolutely a fighter, she's a martial artist and gymnast, plus with Ivy's enhancements she's a borderline metahuman at this point. 
> 
> So long as a character isn't fighting lethally (like Jason, Cass and Damian no longer do), they are by definition "holding back."


Harley has gymnastics and a self defense course or two and girl cant take a punch.
But she slip past kyrptonians and Amazons and outmaneuver batman when a writer says so.

----------


## Drako

Detective Comics #1027 Variant Cover

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Harley has gymnastics and a self defense course or two and girl can’t take a punch.
> But she slip past kyrptonians and Amazon’s and outmaneuver batman when a writer says so.


Harley and Catwoman just offpaneled Cheshire and Merlyn like they were nothing.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Detective Comics #1027 Variant Cover


Holy shit I love this.

----------


## Ascended

I dont think I've seen Bermejo draw Nightwing before. 

I gotta say I prefer the more high tech versions of Nightwing's suit but Bermejo's talent just cannot be questioned, the guy is so fantastic at what he does! 

So do we have any word yet on what'll be happening with Dick post-75? Any tweets from creators or whatever? I'm assuming any news will wait until that Fandome event but I don't really do social media, outside of occasionally checking facebook.

----------


## Fergus

> harleys not a fighter, she fights with a mallet or a gun, between punchline and her it was a fair fight. the bat kids on the other hand...i think if writers want to make her a vital character have her go up against the kids that actually wont hold back in a brutal fight to show her why gotham is unforgiving and if she wants in this life why she shoudn't go up against some one like jason, cass or damian and she stick to the kids who would play with her.


If Punchline goes against any of those Batkids you listed she will win. The character is right now being promoted. They are still in the look how awesome she is phase. They'll all take an L it's got nothing to do with their skill level more to do with establishing Punchline as a threat.

----------


## Fergus

> Detective Comics #1027 Variant Cover


What a beauty.

----------


## TheCape

So i decided to read the rest of the Ric era that has been published so far and man that was boring and unremarkable, i think that my "favorite" issue is the one with Barbara with the meta commentary about accepting and giving a chance to Ric, it was hilarious. Jurgen run has been just boring thought, it feels like is dragging it's feet until Joker War. Also read the annual, they were boring, also Jesus christ Bruce was wrong with you?!.

----------


## Wingin' It

> So i decided to read the rest of the Ric era that has been published so far and man that was boring and unremarkable, i think that my "favorite" issue is the one with Barbara with the meta commentary about accepting and giving a chance to Ric, it was hilarious. Jurgen run has been just boring thought, it feels like is dragging it's feet until Joker War. Also read the annual, they were boring, also Jesus christ Bruce was wrong with you?!.


My hope is that we're going to move past this so hard that it'll only be a footnote in Dick's 80 year history.

----------


## TheCape

> My hope is that we're going to move past this so hard that it'll only be a footnote in Dick's 80 year history.


Oh it's definetly gonna be a footnote, there is nothing about it worth keeping, i'm not even angry about it, just whelmed the uninspired execution, is like a guide to "make it boring, unmemorable and a bit annoying" and surprised that lasted this long.

----------


## Wingin' It

Anyone heard the rumors that Nightwing will be in the new Gotham Knights video game?

----------


## Godlike13

Ric will live on in infamy.

----------


## Drako

Detective Comics #1027 variant cover by Tony Daniel.


I don't know why, but this art seems a little off to me.

----------


## Godlike13

Game of Thrones, Bat edition.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Detective Comics #1027 variant cover by Tony Daniel.
> 
> 
> I don't know why, but this art seems a little off to me.


....Is this a hint that they're putting Babs back in the chair as Oracle?

----------


## Konja7

> ....Is this a hint that they're putting Babs back in the chair as Oracle?


I don't think so. She appears like Batgirl.

Maybe she will have a biggest focus in an Oracle role (that she could do when she walks).

----------


## Ascended

Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too? 

Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.

Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too? 
> 
> Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.
> 
> Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything. 
> 
> But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.


Any effort is better than zero. Right now my threshold to be impressed by DC's handling of Nightwing is very low. 

At least he has pretty good tv representation right now.

----------


## Konja7

> Didn't we have a promo image for after Joker War that showed Babs yelling at her computer too? 
> 
> Maybe they are shifting Babs back towards the Oracle role, presumably without the crippling gunshot wound this time. I don't think I'd be terribly surprised if they did, Babs has had a good run or two as Batgirl but largely seems like she doesn't matter; she's just another ancillary Bat with little to set herself apart from the legion. Returning to her Oracle duties would go a long way towards making Babs matter again.
> 
> Or maybe it's just a weird Daniels cover and doesn't mean anything. 
> 
> But *if* Babs is getting a little effort and DC is trying to get her to stand on her own two feet again (you know what I mean) then I feel like that might be a good sign that Dick will get some more effort than DC has given him in recent years too.


I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice). 

I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.

----------


## Pohzee

Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.

----------


## Konja7

> Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.


Well, if Barbara becomes Oracle while she can walks, she could still be part in direct battles. Many people even say her current suit doesn't look like a Batgirl suit. 

However, Oracle name isn't an iconic name as Batgirl. So, it will totally depends if Barbara Gordon name could mantain a solo. It would be a big risk. 

That said, Barbara using Oracle name in a solo could be a bump of sales at first (especially on a relaunch).

----------


## Wingin' It

> I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice). 
> 
> I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.


What is your fear?

----------


## Konja7

> What is your fear?


My fear is that DC put Dick exclusively in a Titans comic, while Dick's solo is canceled. 

However, this will just happen if DC really wants to push Titans comic.

----------


## Wingin' It

> My fear is that DC put Dick exclusively in a Titans comic, while Dick's solo is canceled. 
> 
> However, this will just happen if DC really wants to push Titans comic.


I doubt it; Red Hood and Batgirl aren't being canceled, and they sell about the same. We heard Jurgens also talk about a plan in the works after he leaves the title in a more recent interview. I won't deny that two years of Ric have pushed away all but the most die-hard fans of his on his solo.

I'm sure we'll here more from DCDOME.

I do see where you're coming from. Back in the day, Dick was firmly a Titans character and the Bat-office had little control over what was done with him. I can't see the same thing happening now, though, with almost everything being tangentially related to the Bat these days.

----------


## Konja7

> I doubt it; Red Hood and Batgirl aren't being canceled, and they sell about the same. We heard Jurgens also talk about a plan in the works after he leaves the title in a more recent interview. I won't deny that two years of Ric have pushed away all but the most die-hard fans of his on his solo.
> 
> I'm sure we'll here more from DCDOME.
> 
> I do see where you're coming from. Back in the day, Dick was firmly a Titans character and the Bat-office had little control over what was done with him. I can't see the same thing happening now, though, with almost everything being tangentially related to the Bat these days.


That's why I say it will just happen if DC really want to push Titans. 

They wouldn't cancel Nightwing due to lack of popularity, but because they want to push Titans sales. This will force Nightwing fans to buy Titans if they want read about Nightwing. 

Technically, DC did this with Tim in New52 (when Tim in his Red Robin solo has good sales). 

It is just a fear. So, I really hope this doesn't happen.


PS: Batgirl is canceled in October. Although the comic may return in a general relaunch.

----------


## Pohzee

Hot take, I want Nightwing cancelled. Gets him out of the Bat Office and would allow a Titans writer to have freedom with the character which in turn means more focus.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I read that some Titans appear along Nightwing in that preview for Batman #100 (I didn't notice). 
> 
> I just hope the new direction for Nightwing isn't what I fear.


https://64.media.tumblr.com/a682ec7d...62313d6af9.jpg

I don't see any Titans here either. I got Oracle, Signal, Batwoman, Orphan, Robin and Nightwing and someone in a cape fighting alongside Orphan.

But the solicitation for Nightwing #75 says his Teen Titans friends will help restore his memories but it also says Alfred will help so we might still not have anyone outside the Batfamily actually show up to help personally.

----------


## Claude

> Hot take, I want Nightwing cancelled. Gets him out of the Bat Office and would allow a Titans writer to have freedom with the character which in turn means more focus.



Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.

Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.

----------


## Ascended

> Making Barbara Oracle again would make her a "more important" supporting character but guarantee that she loses any long term title. But you could also just make Batgirl have a more prominent presence outside of her book and not hamstring her writers.


Well, there's problems with Batgirl/Oracle.

As Batgirl, Babs doesn't matter. She's just another vigilante in a city over crowded with vigilantes. Babs' role in big stories and Events has dropped off to nothing and in-universe Babs is a total non-factor (she wasn't even part of the 'Tec era Gotham Knights). And I don't believe her sales are great either; the Burnside run seemed to sell well enough but that seems to be an exception, not the rule. 

But "classic" Oracle is harder to write a monthly series around. Comics from indie publishers can get away from the typical superhero trappings, but a classic Oracle title would break the superhero mold and fans don't seem to want that kind of stuff from DC, they want spandex and violence. So returning Babs to Oracle poses big challenges, and the Oracle name isn't nearly as well known or iconic as Batgirl.

DC could just split the difference; Babs keeps the Batgirl name but operates in much the same way Oracle did, except instead of using a strike team like the Birds of Prey Babs does all the field work herself. That would set Babs apart from other heroes and give her the in-universe importance of Oracle but lets her stay in the action and keep the "bigger" name as well.

As far as Dick goes....I don't see DC cancelling his book in favor of the Titans. When things are good, Nightwing and Titans sell roughly the same, with Nightwing maybe selling a little better on average. I assume the idea there would be that, with no Nightwing solo, all those wingnut fans would go to Titans and essentially double that book's sales right? But that's assuming there's no overlap between fanbases and I don't think that's the case; I think most Nightwing fans are also Titans fans so all that would happen is DC would lose potential revenue. Now, maybe DC would still do it, gods know they've done stupid stuff before with no regard to their own profit, but I like to think Jim Lee is smarter than Didio is when it comes to these franchises. 

This is also assuming DC decides to push the Titans, and I dunno if that's in the cards. AT&T might push for it given how successful the Titans are outside of comics, and maybe Lee has more faith in the brand than Didio did, but Nightwing is still (usually) one of the company's highest selling non-League, non-Harley books so I feel like there isn't much to gain by making the Titans title the only place to find Nightwing. I suspect that Dick will keep his solo regardless of what is done with Titans....but I've been wrong before. 

Making the Titans the only place to find Nightwing would also likely mean the Bat editorial office gives up Nightwing to whichever office controls the Titans, and I don't think they'll do that. They could put the Titans under the Bat office, but when DC does stuff like that (putting Wonder Woman under the Super office for example) the book never gets quality attention. What would likely happen is the Bat editors would focus on the Bat books, and the Titans would get half assed effort resulting in a low quality, low selling book. So once again, DC probably would end up losing money by getting rid of the Nightwing solo.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.
> 
> Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.


I saw that! Would be amazing if we got Ross on a Titans book.

----------


## Pohzee

Nightwing has been most irrelevant when he has his own title. And the Titans was at its peak when he was allowed to lead and develop in the book.

----------


## Ascended

I wanna amend my previous post. That was a knee-jerk reaction and I forgot about the "Red Hood & the Outlaws" approach, and was thinking in terms of franchise, brand, and sales, without considering individual characters and DC's past struggles to find a purpose for them.

I could see DC doing a "Nightwing & the Titans" book, where Dick is essentially the main character and the likes of Donna and Wally serve as something between supporting cast and co-stars. Just as how the Outlaws book is primarily driven by Jason but Artemis and Bizarro get plenty of attention and importance too.

DC would still make more money with a Nightwing book and a Titans book, but they've struggled with the Titans for so damn long, I can see them doing this. Donna and Wally and most of the Titans are homeless and can barely manage to appear in their mentor titles, while Dick can't hold onto a supporting cast. This would solve both problems and DC isn't likely to care about which editor group controls the Titans.

----------


## Digifiend

> https://64.media.tumblr.com/a682ec7d...62313d6af9.jpg
> 
> I don't see any Titans here either. I got Oracle, Signal, Batwoman, Orphan, Robin and Nightwing and someone in a cape fighting alongside Orphan.
> 
> But the solicitation for Nightwing #75 says his Teen Titans friends will help restore his memories but it also says Alfred will help so we might still not have anyone outside the Batfamily actually show up to help personally.


Yeah, the only Titans on that art are Nightwing and Robin.




> Well, there's problems with Batgirl/Oracle.
> 
> As Batgirl, Babs doesn't matter. She's just another vigilante in a city over crowded with vigilantes. Babs' role in big stories and Events has dropped off to nothing and in-universe Babs is a total non-factor (she wasn't even part of the 'Tec era Gotham Knights). And I don't believe her sales are great either; the Burnside run seemed to sell well enough but that seems to be an exception, not the rule. 
> 
> But "classic" Oracle is harder to write a monthly series around. Comics from indie publishers can get away from the typical superhero trappings, but a classic Oracle title would break the superhero mold and fans don't seem to want that kind of stuff from DC, they want spandex and violence. So returning Babs to Oracle poses big challenges, and the Oracle name isn't nearly as well known or iconic as Batgirl.
> 
> DC could just split the difference; Babs keeps the Batgirl name but operates in much the same way Oracle did, except instead of using a strike team like the Birds of Prey Babs does all the field work herself. That would set Babs apart from other heroes and give her the in-universe importance of Oracle but lets her stay in the action and keep the "bigger" name as well.


Based on Cass and Steph's costumes in the Batman #100 art, they're both going to be Batgirl. I think the three of them will form a team.




> Yeah, I wouldn't hate this - but it would need to be a *really* good Titans run.
> 
> Did y'all see Alex Ross put out some Starfire art tagged #Breakingnews, and then deleted it? It's possible DC are positioning to get behind Titans in a big way.


If you didn't see it, I posted it in the Titans thread. Something is coming...




> I dont think I've seen Bermejo draw Nightwing before. 
> 
> I gotta say I prefer the more high tech versions of Nightwing's suit but Bermejo's talent just cannot be questioned, the guy is so fantastic at what he does! 
> 
> So do we have any word yet on what'll be happening with Dick post-75? Any tweets from creators or whatever? I'm assuming any news will wait until that Fandome event but I don't really do social media, outside of occasionally checking facebook.


Aren't November solicits due before Fandome?

----------


## Godlike13

Sticking him in Titans exclusively for a while might not be the worse thing, if for no other reason then to give the solo a break after Ric. Especially since they don’t seem interested in even protecting his return. There are no guarantees he’ll fair any better in Titan, the last Titans series certainly didn’t do him any favors, but giving his solo series a break after Ric might let the stink wear off and create time for pitch ideas. Don’t see the Bat office letting go of it though. From their stand point Nightwing is easy work they can toss to whomever with seemingly no accountability.

----------


## Ascended

> Based on Cass and Steph's costumes in the Batman #100 art, they're both going to be Batgirl. I think the three of them will form a team.


"Babs & the Batgirls"  :Big Grin:  sounds like a pop band. 

I agree though, it looks like Steph and Cass are returning to their Batgirl costumes, I forgot about that from the promo image. But if we end up with several Batgirls running around, DC will do something to differentiate them in a stupid obvious manner (look at how they handle the Robins), so Babs returning to a more Oracle-like role while retaining the Batgirl name and costume would be fitting. 




> If you didn't see it, I posted it in the Titans thread. Something is coming...


I didn't see it, thanks for sharing. Doesn't tell us much though. Ross drew Starfire and it's tied to some announcement. Could be damn near anything; Justice League Odyssey, a Starfire solo, a NTT reunion, a Dark Multiverse one-shot, a "Marvels" style "history of DC" mini, a "Tamaran Attacks!" Event.....odds are it's another Titans reunion but you never know. And the question remains if DC would cancel Nightwing and limit him to a single Titans book the same way they have Wally and Donna. I still don't see that happening, if anything they'll put those Titans in Nightwing's book Red Hood style, but like I said, y'never know.




> Aren't November solicits due before Fandome?


Yeah, but solicits are all screwed up already. We normally get those months in advance, but we got August solicits in mid-July. Between the pandemic and the new distributors and all the 5G plans getting changed/dropped/whatever at the last minute.....November solicits might not actually hit until December.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Badou

He was written worse in the last Titans series than he was written in the awful Ric story. Abnett's Dick Grayson remains the worse written version of the character I've ever read. The Titans franchise has been a complete disaster in the comics for over two decades. People looking at the Titans as some saving grace and a place to rehabilitate his character doesn't line up with what we have seen from the franchise in a long time.

----------


## Pohzee

I remember an interview at some point where Abnett said that he didn't bother giving much focus to Dick because he had his own solo and so he both didn't need the spotlight and also had less freedom to work with.

And that's true, Dick's single greatest achievement occurred not in his solo features in the Batman and Detective Comics books but in the pages of the New Teen Titans, when the editors sought to keep the character.

----------


## Hypestyle

what is Nightwing's unique rogues' gallery at this point?

----------


## Badou

I feel like Dick had quite a bit of focus in both of Abnett's Titans runs, but Abnett just wrote the character terribly. He was weak willed, failed every encounter her had, fell into the generic leader with no personality trap, and worst of all was him rolling over and letting Batman and the JL run his team for him and having Roy mock him. Then in Abnett's second run on the book when Dick was remaking his team he was acting like he had his balls back and wouldn't listen to anything the JL wanted, but then immediately did exactly what the JL wanted and moved his team to work out of JL's Headquarters. The only good thing about Dick getting shot in the head is that he didn't have to be in that book anymore. 

I get that some fans really like the Titans and think of it as this place that can save Dick's character, but nothing in the comics in decades has given any indication that will happen. I mean if you want to say that Dick has been awful in the Titans for decades because of his solo that doesn't really excuse how badly the rest of the Titans have been treated in the franchise that don't have solo's. It is just a terrible franchise in the comics with no direction and I don't have any confidence it will be the place to save him.

----------


## Ascended

Preach. The Titans is not the book that'll save Dick. Hell, the Titans are the ones that need saving, Dick just needs a decent writer and an editor who remembers he's not Robin anymore. But exiling him to the Titans is only going to make things worse; that's one of the few "classic DC" properties that DC abuses worse than they do Dick.

But given the news tonight about all the layoffs at DC and WB....well, I wasn't worried about Dick's book when the Ric sales finally started to drop. I haven't been worried about Dick losing his solo for more than a short break before a relaunch. But now, with the DC product line supposedly being cut to ribbons? Well f*ck, now I'm concerned. Nightwing's low sales are easy to justify based on the content and quality, but I dunno if anyone is gonna be given the chance to defend it. If DC cuts the bottom half of their titles....well I don't know if Ric has dragged the book that low or not but it wouldn't surprise me. This prolonged failure at "Born Again" might actually end up putting Dick's solo in danger because of these cuts.

----------


## Aahz

> But given the news tonight about all the layoffs at DC and WB....well, I wasn't worried about Dick's book when the Ric sales finally started to drop. I haven't been worried about Dick losing his solo for more than a short break before a relaunch. But now, with the DC product line supposedly being cut to ribbons? Well f*ck, now I'm concerned. Nightwing's low sales are easy to justify based on the content and quality, but I dunno if anyone is gonna be given the chance to defend it. If DC cuts the bottom half of their titles....well I don't know if Ric has dragged the book that low or not but it wouldn't surprise me. This prolonged failure at "Born Again" might actually end up putting Dick's solo in danger because of these cuts.


I hope they do at least some kind of Batfamily book, if the cut the solos (if Nightwing doesn't get one it is highly unlikely anyone else will).
Most of these characters are to popular to put them completely in limbo.

----------


## Pohzee

With the huge cuts DC just had, Titans probably is the safest place for Dick right now.

----------


## Ascended

> I hope they do at least some kind of Batfamily book, if the cut the solos (if Nightwing doesn't get one it is highly unlikely anyone else will).
> Most of these characters are to popular to put them completely in limbo.


Under normal circumstances, absolutely. Right now? Who knows?

I figure it could go any of these ways;

Dick is one of the lucky ones who gets to keep his book. If that happens, then we probably end up with better creators since most of the bad writers are likely getting cut. Best case scenario right here.

Dick loses his solo but ends up in a team book, maybe something like the 'Tec era Gotham Knights, but more likely a Titans reunion title.

Dick loses his solo and appears in no current content but gets reprints of classic stories, Dixon, NTT, etc.

Dick only shows up in a OGN somewhere, like Lost Carnival or something.

Dick ends up in a digital title, maybe a solo or maybe a team book....my cynicism says it'll be a team book.

I think a lot will depend on who decides what books get cut, and how deeply they look at those titles. If all you do is tell an accountant to look at the sales for the last two years, then Dick is in trouble. If you look at a wider stretch of sales history, brand recognition, and/or larger media profile, or you get someone who's familiar with DC and its history to decide what stays and what goes, then Nightwing is in a much better position.

----------


## Aahz

We will see, but I think if Dick doesn't get a book, then DC is really cutting their line-up back to just the big 6 and maybe Harley Quinn.

And he would be likely one of the first characters to get a book should they decide to expand again.

But imo nightwing, Batgirl and Robin have next to the big 6 and maybe Harley Quinn to stick around in some way.

----------


## DurararaFTW

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/deat...stseller-list/
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/hero...4th-june-2020/

Nightwing is selling good again now that Joker War has started, there's plenty to cut that hasn't seen a top 10 in years.

----------


## Ascended

Well, that's only for the week, but still good news. At this point, I feel like Dick needs every advantage he can get to survive the culling. 

If anyone outside the Big 6 and Harls is going to stick around, Dick's got good odds but I would've felt a whole hell of a lot safer back when he was selling double what he has been lately.

----------


## Konja7

> Well, that's only for the week, but still good news. At this point, I feel like Dick needs every advantage he can get to survive the culling. 
> 
> If anyone outside the Big 6 and Harls is going to stick around, Dick's got good odds but I would've felt a whole hell of a lot safer back when he was selling double what he has been lately.


As you say, Dick's got good odds that he will stock around (honestly, he could appear in OGN too).

The question is whether he will mantain his solo, which seems pretty uncertain. It seems that only the big names have a chance. 

Now, I wouldn't be surprised he end up in a Titans book (after all, Titans is popular in other media). Or a "Bat-family" book.

----------


## Aahz

> The question is whether he will mantain his solo, which seems pretty uncertain. It seems that only the big names have a chance.


Dick, Barbara and jason are afaik the only characaters apart from the big 6 that managed to keep their books going since flashpoint, so if DC is going to keep some smaller characters around they are probably the ones with the highest chance.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Dick, Barbara and jason are afaik the only characaters apart from the big 6 that managed to keep their books going since flashpoint, so if DC is going to keep some smaller characters around they are probably the ones with the highest chance.


Batgirl ends in October along with Batman and the Outsiders.

----------


## Aahz

> Batgirl ends in October along with Batman and the Outsiders.


I know, but with more that 100 issues since flashpoint she has imo still a better chance to get a new book then most other characters.

----------


## Digifiend

> I didn't see it, thanks for sharing. Doesn't tell us much though. Ross drew Starfire and it's tied to some announcement. Could be damn near anything; Justice League Odyssey, 
> 
> Yeah, but solicits are all screwed up already. We normally get those months in advance, but we got August solicits in mid-July. Between the pandemic and the new distributors and all the 5G plans getting changed/dropped/whatever at the last minute.....November solicits might not actually hit until December.


Definitely not Odyssey. It finishes next month.

And those mid-July solicits were for October, which is normal. It's just that the majority of books so far since they came back from shutdown have been resolicits from April-June instead of previously unannounced comics.

----------


## Ascended

> As you say, Dick's got good odds that he will stock around (honestly, he could appear in OGN too).
> 
> The question is whether he will mantain his solo, which seems pretty uncertain. It seems that only the big names have a chance. 
> 
> Now, I wouldn't be surprised he end up in a Titans book (after all, Titans is popular in other media). Or a "Bat-family" book.


The solo is really the only thing that worries me. Dick is absolutely too big to be dropped completely across the board. He could end up in a digital title, or get the occasional OGN, or stay in the main line as part of a Titans or Batfam title, as you say. Or he could get several of those at the same time, I think Nightwing has a high enough profile they could get away with a few different projects running at once; Nightwing *is* fairly well known outside the LCS after all. Far from a global icon, but he's been in plenty of cartoons, video games, and shows and he's far from a unknown.

The only real question is whether his monthly, direct market solo sticks around. I think they're saying the comics line will be cut by 40%....but that isn't very clear; does that include every book DC makes, including imprints and mini's? They're dropping Black Label, does that count towards the 40%? Or are they talking only about the regular ongoing titles? Whatever floppy books are left over, will DC try to cram as many faces in those titles as possible, turning most of their books into team/ensemble titles, or will they double down and focus on the individual A-list characters and leave the B- and C-listers to other formats?

----------


## Godlike13

Im concerned about Nightwing's future, and its sad people lost their job, but DC needed to retool. I felt like they were running around like a chicken with no head.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

They're not cutting Black Label, they seem to be cutting down on imprints. Black Label books are OGNs, which is seemingly the focus for DC moving forward (and no wonder, focusing on the direct market just seems like a bad business decision at this point, and it seems that's what all these layoffs is about as terrible as it is for the people affected), so I would expect to see them being published all together. Since Black Label might not be its own imprint anymore, you wouldn't really need the staff who worked under it anymore (again, that's a terrible situation for staff and I don't want to make light of that).

Not sure where the 40% reduction comes from, that's not been mentioned in anything I've read so far. Dick will probably continue to appear in Digital stuff like Gotham Knights every once in a while and continue to star in the Titans Together series, but probably not much else except whatever OGNs we get. The main book might get through any type of line reduction as a Batman IP, but that's an issue of its own since he'll become even further swamped in Batman's oozing shadow.

Honestly, as a DC reader, and I think I've said this before on here, but the most interesting DC content is not coming from the mainline books and hasn't for several years now. The best Raven is Teen Titans: Raven, the best Superman is Superman Smashes the Klan, etc. There's a reason stuff like Injustice and DCeased sell so well, same goes for the more disconnected events like Metal and Death Metal. On top of that, DC itself hasn't really delivered on their promises for more diverse books, like we're still waiting on Milestone. So honestly, this kind of reduction in direct market output isn't going to affect me much. In fact, you could say the reduction of the line (not the work force, of course) is a consequence of doing wrong by characters like Dick and not meeting reader expectations in general. Or it's just that the direct market isn't really conducive to any kind of growth and Batman and Superman have eaten up all the market share DC ever had. 

Whatever happens, I think the DC Comics we end up with is going to be a more honest version of what we have right now, i.e. even more about the A-list IPs than they are now.

----------


## Ascended

I'm not even sure I *did* see "40% cuts." I caught all this fairly late last night, when I'm usually reading news articles (like, real news; politics and pandemics and science, etc). So I was tired and just skimming nerd articles as I found them. For all I know, I imagined the 40% figure, or it was a comment from a fellow poster. Or maybe you just haven't seen the article I came across yet.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Supposedly we'll get word on what DC's two year plan entails soon, so we'll know for sure then.

Anyway, I agree that the best DC is found in the out-of-continuity stuff and I'm glad they seem to be focusing on new markets instead of trying to revive the direct market (as much as I love my LCS, it isn't a optimized business model). I don't actually think this will personally impact me too deeply; they've cancelled a lot of my favorite books like Terrifics already, and other than a few titles like Legion or Young Justice most of my remaining pull list is just the big characters like Clark and Diana. And I already read several books like Flash in trade and OGN's like Lost Carnival anyway.  

Really my biggest concerns are where Dick will land (he'll be somewhere, but will it be a regular solo?), what will happen to Naomi season 2, and whether Cyborg, Terrific, and Wally will find a home with regular appearances.

----------


## Badou

Dick's had a ongoing solo book since nearly the mid 90s. Only Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and maybe Green Lantern have had that. Although with Flash and GL they had periods of different lead characters. So I would be a little surprised if he loses his solo, but who knows. His character hasn't really felt that important in quite a while with his solo book just going through the motions of doing the bare minimum. 

If the Snyder book happens I can see them maybe not wanting to have the Snyder book and also a solo book going on at the same time even if Snyder's book is its own thing.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh yeah that Snyder book might end up never happen if they're cutting cost

----------


## Morgoth

Dick, in my opinion, is just one of those characters that we shouldn't worry about at all. Even if they completely close his ongoing, he will either be in Batman or in the Titans, no one will touch them for sure, he'll be there.
Tim, Stephanie and Cassandra are in huge danger. Dick, Damian and Jason will be safe anyway.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Dick, in my opinion, is just one of those characters that we shouldn't worry about at all. Even if they completely close his ongoing, he will either be in Batman or in the Titans, no one will touch them for sure, he'll be there.
> Tim, Stephanie and Cassandra are in huge danger. Dick, Damian and Jason will be safe anyway.


Titans doesn't have an ongoing at the moment, Young Justice does. And Damian is gonna stop being Robin for at least a while soon.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, solicits for both Detective Comics and Teen Titans indicate Damian is going rogue, and Batman, the remaining Titans, and Superboy (who's guesting in TT) will have to deal with it.

----------


## Konja7

> Titans doesn't have an ongoing at the moment, Young Justice does. And Damian is gonna stop being Robin for at least a while soon.


I really doubt Young Justice comic will survive for much longer. Its reception isn't really good.

Currently, there is Titans Together comic in digital (Dick and Jason appears there). The name Titans is pretty strong, so it could return. 






> Yeah, solicits for both Detective Comics and Teen Titans indicate Damian is going rogue, and Batman, the remaining Titans, and Superboy (who's guesting in TT) will have to deal with it.


I said this in other threads, you can't trust solicitations. 

The concept of the "son of Batman" is pretty popular and profitable, so I don't think they really want him to go rogue.

----------


## Aahz

> I really doubt Young Justice comic will survive for much longer. Its reception isn't really good.


Depends on what happens with the Bendis Imprint, Young Justice is kind of it's flag ship book so it will probably continue as long as this Imprint.

----------


## Ascended

Given the success of the cartoon and its ability to showcase multiple characters, I'd imagine YJ has decent odds of surviving, but it'll almost certainly get a new creative team, and probably a change in direction that brings it closer to the show. 

Damian might stop being Robin for a minute, but that's a storyline, he'll be back in the cape before long I'm sure (I'm just assuming). "Robin, the son of Batman" is too good a concept to throw away, especially if DC is going to start trying to appeal to a wider audience than the LCS crowd. 

And yeah, Dick's not going anywhere and I doubt anyone is really worried about him disappearing into limbo. I'm not convinced his solo is safe but the character won't go away completely.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Im concerned about Nightwing's future, and its sad people lost their job, but DC needed to retool. I felt like they were running around like a chicken with no head.


Tv and movie characters  will proably be prioritized

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tv and movie characters  will proably be prioritized


Oh good. He's on TV.

----------


## WonderNight

If dc is reducing the line I dont think titans will be around in the mainline because I believe dc will go with teen titans instead of titans.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Oh yeah that Snyder book might end up never happen if they're cutting cost


Nah that won't happen, DC's focus is on OGNs so if anything, the Nightwing OGN would be prioritized over the mainline book.




> Dick, in my opinion, is just one of those characters that we shouldn't worry about at all. Even if they completely close his ongoing, he will either be in Batman or in the Titans, no one will touch them for sure, he'll be there.


Well that's sort of the issue isn't it? Nightwing's solo is not guaranteed to ever be good if it doesn't get cut since we've seen how they treat the book under regular circumstances, but if it does get cut, he'd end up in Batman stuff which is arguably worse than if he was stuck in a mediocre solo. A Titans book is something I wouldn't mind, but I don't see it as likely and that's not even getting to whether the book would be good or not.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If dc is reducing the line I don't think titans will be around in the mainline because I believe dc will go with teen titans instead of titans.


The easiest way is to merge them all under one title since the most popular name is TT but the most popular cast are in Titans,  basically making it like the Young Justice TV with the older ones acting as a mentor

The selling cast would be Nightwing, Starfire, Beast Boy, Cyborg, and Raven with Donna, Wally, Wallace, Damian, Tim, Jason, Kon, Cassie, and Bart following.

----------


## Ascended

> Well that's sort of the issue isn't it? Nightwing's solo is not guaranteed to ever be good if it doesn't get cut since we've seen how they treat the book under regular circumstances, but if it does get cut, he'd end up in Batman stuff which is arguably worse than if he was stuck in a mediocre solo. A Titans book is something I wouldn't mind, but I don't see it as likely and that's not even getting to whether the book would be good or not.


Well, presumably after the culling only the best creators will be left, perhaps reinforced with new writers from outside the comic industry. In theory we'll be left with a smaller, but more skillful, talent pool. So if Dick's solo survives, he might still get the bottom of the creative barrel, but instead of that being someone like Lobdell, it'd be someone like, I dunno, Williamson. So we'd be way better off than we are now if that happens. 

If Dick loses the solo and ends up in a Bat book, then that'll just continue the path of "adult sidekick" DC has put him on. I think this is the worst case scenario, as Dick won't ever get to drive a narrative of his own and will be completely at the mercy of Bruce's story. We've seen where that takes us and none of us want to repeat it.

Third obvious option is Dick being put into a ensemble team book, probably a Titans of some sort, maybe a Batfam title, maybe something brand new. I'd prefer this over a Batman book, as a ensemble team will (if written well) give equal attention to the entire roster and everyone will get their moments to shine, their own subplots, etc. It's not nearly as preferable as a solo, but better than being a sidekick in a Bat book.

----------


## Drako

A little bit of good news for y'all.
Joshua Williamson said his Justice League story from Death Metal will be from Nightwing point of view. Some good tidbits in this interview here.

https://www.gamesradar.com/inside-th...d-death-metal/

----------


## Restingvoice

> A little bit of good news for y'all.
> Joshua Williamson said his Justice League story from Death Metal will be from Nightwing point of view. Some good tidbits in this interview here.
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/inside-th...d-death-metal/


Haven't read that, but I was just from DC's website and there are some covers and solicits

JUSTL_Cv54_5f3449b398cb36.78868436.jpg

“Doom Metal” part two of five storms the stage in this essential Dark Nights: Death Metal tie-in! It’s the Titans reunion you've been clamoring for when Starfire and Cyborg join Nightwing in this twisted Justice League. The team is hell-bent for Brimstone Bay to free the Legion of Doom, but what horrors and desires will the Valley of Starros reveal to them—and who or what is the villain named Mindhunter?

JUSTICE LEAGUE #54, written by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON, art by XERMANICO, cover by LIAM SHARP, variant cover by HOWARD PORTER, Wonder Woman 1984 variant cover by JIM LEE and SCOTT WILLIAMS, ON SALE 10/6/20.

----------


## Restingvoice

JUSTL_Cv55_5f3449e99afd12.67449765.jpg

The motley crew of “Doom Metal” sets sail for the cliffs of insanity, captained by Nightwing—or so he thinks! The team fractures, and Detective Chimp reveals the horrible secret wish in his heart. And speaking of hearts, Hawkgirl will stop at nothing to find Martian Manhunter, even if she jeopardizes the League’s mission and their souls. Part three of this five-issue tie-in to Dark Nights: Death Metal features the debut of a villain so huge he dwarfs all hope. Enter the Omega Knight.

JUSTICE LEAGUE #55, written by JOSHUA WILLIAMSON, art by ROBSON ROCHA and DANIEL HENRIQUES, cover by LIAM SHARP, variant cover by SIMONE BIANCHI, ON SALE 10/20/20.

That's the last Nightwing cover. 

The last two issues focus on Hawkgirl, MM, Omega Knight and Luthor.

----------


## Ascended

My kingdom for Williamson and Mora to be the next creators on Nightwing.

Those covers remind me of that world the Titans visit in TTGO! The Night Begins to Shine and all that.

Off topic, but it makes me super sad that I know what Cyborg's favorite foods and music are in a kids' cartoon, but the comics don't come close to that level of characterization. In, what, the DCYOU series we find out Vic likes the blues and it's never mentioned again, yet I think I've caught Vic humming that song from BER on the show with no direct reference to it at all.

----------


## Restingvoice

> A little bit of good news for y'all.
> Joshua Williamson said his Justice League story from Death Metal will be from Nightwing point of view. Some good tidbits in this interview here.
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/inside-th...d-death-metal/


Talking about Dark Martian Manhunter and his powers, they said with Nightwing he'd be like 'You're still feeling like you messed up and lost your memory for a while.'

Hnnnnnnnnng

----------


## Godlike13

Ric should be looked at as a failure, if it’s looked at again at all. Dick can’t exactly call out the creators for it so he is going to have to bear that burden. 
It was one of the lowest points in his existence, they could either ignore it or reflect it as such. Though I guess they could try and pull a Lobdell and push it back onto the readers. But that kind of out of touch ignorance and tact is part of why Ric turned out like it did.

----------


## Wingin' It

"There's a scene where it's the team that they're crossing the Valley of Starros, and it gives an opportunity for Cyborg, Nightwing, and Starfire to just talk for a moment, to catch up with each other. They've all gone into these crazy changes. If you think about what they've all gone through. All the things Cyborg and Starfire went through in Justice League Odyssey, and all the things that Nightwing went through in his own book.

All these really big changes and I wanted all of them to come together and talk about that and realize that about each other."

If the "Ric" storyline isn't going to be ignored this is the next best thing. Looking forward to Dick, Kory and Vic interacting again.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, presumably after the culling only the best creators will be left, perhaps reinforced with new writers from outside the comic industry. In theory we'll be left with a smaller, but more skillful, talent pool. So if Dick's solo survives, he might still get the bottom of the creative barrel, but instead of that being someone like Lobdell, it'd be someone like, I dunno, Williamson. So we'd be way better off than we are now if that happens. 
> 
> If Dick loses the solo and ends up in a Bat book, then that'll just continue the path of "adult sidekick" DC has put him on. I think this is the worst case scenario, as Dick won't ever get to drive a narrative of his own and will be completely at the mercy of Bruce's story. We've seen where that takes us and none of us want to repeat it.
> 
> Third obvious option is Dick being put into a ensemble team book, probably a Titans of some sort, maybe a Batfam title, maybe something brand new. I'd prefer this over a Batman book, as a ensemble team will (if written well) give equal attention to the entire roster and everyone will get their moments to shine, their own subplots, etc. It's not nearly as preferable as a solo, but better than being a sidekick in a Bat book.


If nightwing loss his solo and is stuck between a supporting character in batman or tec or a teen titan. That being suck between a rock and a hard place. 

Maybe it's time to think outside of the box a little. The batfamily is so bloated let cass, kate or Duke be the support characters in batman. Have nightwing moved to wonder woman or superman as a support character at less then maybe no more adult sidekick.

But I believe nightwing will keep his solo.

----------


## Konja7

> If nightwing loss his solo and is stuck between a supporting character in batman or tec or a teen titan. That being suck between a rock and a hard place. 
> 
> Maybe it's time to think outside of the box a little. The batfamily is so bloated let cass, kate or Duke be the support characters in batman. Have nightwing moved to wonder woman or superman as a support character at less then maybe no more adult sidekick.
> 
> But I believe nightwing will keep his solo.


It will likely be worse for Nightwing to be a support img character in Wonder Woman and Superman.

Wonder Woman is usually a mess with the supporting characters. 

I also really doubt there is place for a non-superpowered hero in a Superman book.

----------


## Aahz

> Third obvious option is Dick being put into a ensemble team book, probably a Titans of some sort, maybe a Batfam title, maybe something brand new.


If they are really going to shrink down their line up to the biggest IPs I doubt they will do a brand new team (and if they do it would be probably some kind of Justice League spin off).

----------


## WonderNight

> It will likely be worse for Nightwing to be a support img character in Wonder Woman and Superman.
> 
> Wonder Woman is usually a mess with the supporting characters. 
> 
> I also really doubt there is place for a non-superpowered hero in a Superman book.


True but thats because most people don't give a crap about wonder woman supporting characters, there boring and underdeveloped but not nightwing. Hell the way most wonder woman fans talk about how they would what steve trevor to be is usually just a blonde dick grayson.

A non-superpowered super is basically what nightwing is as a titan.

----------


## Konja7

> True but thats because most people don't give a crap about wonder woman supporting characters, there boring and underdeveloped but not nightwing. Hell the way most wonder woman fans talk about how they would what steve trevor to be is usually just a blonde dick grayson.
> 
> A non-superpowered super is basically what nightwing is as a titan.


These wonder woman fans don't want a blonde Dick Grayson, they want Steve Trevor with certain personality traits.

Dick works as a non-superpowered hero in Titans, because he's the leader in the team. Obviously, he couldn't be this in Superman books. 

Dick can't even be used like the "heart" in Superman books because there are already characters in that role (many times Superman himself).

----------


## DurararaFTW

Yeah, I love Nightwing and Superman interactions but ultimately they don't need each other the way other characters can be written to need either of them.

----------


## Claude

> A little bit of good news for y'all.
> Joshua Williamson said his Justice League story from Death Metal will be from Nightwing point of view. Some good tidbits in this interview here.
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/inside-th...d-death-metal/


_"You'll see, once you start the first few pages, you're going to see how much it's a Nightwing story."_ - yeah, it's nice to hear that it's not just A Story With Nightwing In It, but a proper Nightwing story. And although it's nice that Nightwing's "return" is being given such prominence in both the _Batman_ and _Justice League_ books, it's a shame that this whole period in his history isn't just being buried in a big, deep hole. Mind you, I'd be happy if "lost his memory for a bit" becomes how it's remembered - and the specifics of Ric, the Nightwings, the weird house-breaking stuff, Bea - just got forgotten.

And then we can go back to crossing our fingers that if Bendis keeps doing "Leviathan" stories, Dick can have the role in some of them that he really should have had from the start.

----------


## Ascended

> If they are really going to shrink down their line up to the biggest IPs I doubt they will do a brand new team (and if they do it would be probably some kind of Justice League spin off).


I mostly meant new for Dick. Granted, he's been on most of DC's big teams already but he could do something we've rarely seen. Maybe join the League or Outsiders again, maybe the JSA or (shudder) Squad.

I expect the publishing line will be *mostly* the Big Name franchises, but I think they'll probably have a few books that're more left field too. Even Rebirth, which was all about "getting back to basics" for the publishing line, had some titles that weren't established A-list, so perhaps there'll be a return of StormWatch or the Authority, or the Seven Soldiers of Victory or who knows what?

----------


## Digifiend

> The easiest way is to merge them all under one title since the most popular name is TT but the most popular cast are in Titans,  basically making it like the Young Justice TV with the older ones acting as a mentor
> 
> The selling cast would be Nightwing, Starfire, Beast Boy, Cyborg, and Raven with Donna, Wally, Wallace, Damian, Tim, Jason, Kon, Cassie, and Bart following.


That roster will never happen, you have four out of five Robins (only Spoiler is missing), all three Kid Flashes, and both Wonder Girls.



> Depends on what happens with the Bendis Imprint, Young Justice is kind of it's flag ship book so it will probably continue as long as this Imprint.


I don't think YJ will last much longer either. The cover of #20 (shown on Bendis's Instagram) shows the whole team in a generic pose. Very much what you'd expect from a Final Issue. We'll know in two hours 15 minutes when the solicits are out.

----------


## Aahz

> I mostly meant new for Dick. Granted, he's been on most of DC's big teams already but he could do something we've rarely seen. Maybe join the League or Outsiders again, maybe the JSA or (shudder) Squad.


I doubt that, JLA and JSA will probaly have realtivly classic line ups, I doubt that they will do Outsiders and Dick doesn't really fit on the Suicide Squad, I think for him it is Titans or some kind of Justice league B-team.

----------


## Ascended

That would be my assumption too, I'm just saying they *could* do something different with him. 

I'm sure Dick, if he ends up on a team again at all, will be on a League title or a Titans team. That's a safe bet, but we don't *know* he will, and with a big shake up like we seem to be getting, some characters might end up in some odd places just so they have somewhere to go at all. 

I mean, if the line gets cut down to the bare basics, will there even be a League B-team at all? Hell, will there even be a Titans? Unless the current run is doing better than I think it is, that's a franchise that hasn't sold well in a long time, so will it's pedigree be enough to keep it around or will DC say "Well, we've only got X books now, do we have room for a title that's in the bottom half of our sales?"

----------


## Konja7

> That would be my assumption too, I'm just saying they *could* do something different with him. 
> 
> I'm sure Dick, if he ends up on a team again at all, will be on a League title or a Titans team. That's a safe bet, but we don't *know* he will, and with a big shake up like we seem to be getting, some characters might end up in some odd places just so they have somewhere to go at all. 
> 
> I mean, if the line gets cut down to the bare basics, will there even be a League B-team at all? Hell, will there even be a Titans? Unless the current run is doing better than I think it is, that's a franchise that hasn't sold well in a long time, so will it's pedigree be enough to keep it around or will DC say "Well, we've only got X books now, do we have room for a title that's in the bottom half of our sales?"


Well, Titans will probably sell better if it is the only place where you can read about Dick. 

The Titans is still a relatively popular brand, so I can see that DC release a cómic.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> That roster will never happen, you have four out of five Robins (only Spoiler is missing), all three Kid Flashes, and both Wonder Girls.
> I don't think YJ will last much longer either. The cover of #20 (shown on Bendis's Instagram) shows the whole team in a generic pose. Very much what you'd expect from a Final Issue. We'll know in two hours 15 minutes when the solicits are out.


To be fair, almost all the covers have been generic poses.

----------


## Restingvoice

> That roster will never happen, you have four out of five Robins (only Spoiler is missing), all three Kid Flashes, and both Wonder Girls.
> I don't think YJ will last much longer either. The cover of #20 (shown on Bendis's Instagram) shows the whole team in a generic pose. Very much what you'd expect from a Final Issue. We'll know in two hours 15 minutes when the solicits are out.


It will not happen if Didio was involved because he views them as powers first, but with WB directing they're gonna choose the popular crew of Dick, Kori, Raven, and Beast Boy as main, and the writers will have the freedom to include the rest if they want. 

WB's not gonna pay attention too much to details in comics. As long as the money-making characters are up front, they won't care if writers add power copies after that. 

For example, WB wants Damian alive for marketing synergy as a Son of Batman and Teen Titans leader to fit their animated movie concept, but they don't really care how Damian is actually treated in the comics. That's up to the writers. They don't care if the Son of Batman is having bad relations with Batman in comics or Injustice, as long as the Son of Batman is there for them to sell. It's going to be like that with every character, team, whatever.

Dick's like that too... he's in all of DCWB's products from comics to LEGO to Titans,  Injustice, Arkham, and animated movies, but whether he's treated well is another question they leave up to the writers of each. Even in Snyder movies, they decided to cancel his death and gave it to Jason so they can plan a Nightwing movie

----------


## Ascended

> Well, Titans will probably sell better if it is the only place where you can read about Dick. 
> 
> The Titans is still a relatively popular brand, so I can see that DC release a cómic.


I think in the direct market the Titans are in a weird spot. 

The brand is highly successful in larger media. It might actually even be the most successful brand DC has in larger media right now. And it obviously has a strong pedigree in comics.

But larger media success means nothing for floppy sales (otherwise Avengers would sell far better and JLA far worse) and the Titans book/s haven't mattered in-universe or sold well in a long damn time. 

If DC cut the Titans out of their line, it wouldn't hurt them at all, especially if they use those characters in OGN's, where they apparently can (and do) find a solid audience. But if DC cull their talent down to the best creators, then the quality of the Titans improves as well, and the Titans are still counted among the "core franchises" of the DCU. So they're kinda worth keeping, and kinda not. It's weird.

I don't think sales on Titans would increase very much if Dick were there. Even if that book was the only place to read about Nightwing. I think there's too much overlap in the fandom; many Nightwing fans are Titans fans as well and will read both books. If Titans were the only place to find Nightwing then sales for Titans would increase a bit, but a lot of those fans would be reading Titans anyway so you're not taking all of Dick's solo sales and adding them to Titans. That doesn't work for the League and won't work here. DC would lose more than they'd gain because instead of buying two books, a lot of those fans would just be buying the one, and there are Nightwing fans who won't read Titans either.

There's also the fact that the Titans brand seems to do better with the teens than the adults. NTT reunions tend to sell decently at first and then crash really hard, while the Teen Titans, with a Robin and a Kid Flash and whatever, seem to hold steady longer and perform marginally better. A NTT reunion at the expense of Dick's solo would not only cost DC some sales but would likely fall apart faster, resulting in even more lost revenue. 

Maybe if they tried something like the YJ cartoon or the Johns run where the NTT served as mentors, and the book used both the teens and the adults, you could get some mileage out of it. But I don't see a world where a Titans book can combine it's own sales with Dick's solo sales.

----------


## Morgoth

> I don't think YJ will last much longer either. The cover of #20 (shown on Bendis's Instagram) shows the whole team in a generic pose. Very much what you'd expect from a Final Issue. We'll know in two hours 15 minutes when the solicits are out.


You were right. #20 is last issue, series is closed in November. Titans closed as well. 
Nightwing still stays.

----------


## Claude

NIGHTWING #76


written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 11/17/20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
_One bullet robbed Nightwing of his memories and identity. One bullet erased Dick Grayson and replaced him with Ric Grayson. Now, with Dick’s true identity returned, KGBeast is back with one last bullet for him. Using Bea as bait, KGBeast has made it abundantly clear that this one last bullet isn’t intended for Nightwing’s head—this one is aiming to puncture his broken heart!
_

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't think that solicit says "bullet" enough.

----------


## TheCape

> NIGHTWING #76
> 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 11/17/20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
> ...


To be honest i was expecting "another bullet would give him his life back"  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Drako

the covers:

----------


## Restingvoice

> the covers:


Those thicc lips can only be.... yep, Travis Moore

----------


## Ascended

So it seems Jurgens is sticking around until Metal wraps up and the line relaunches.  :Frown:  I was kinda hoping 75 would be his last.

I know we've supposedly got a relaunch coming and that'll likely bring in new creators (assuming the book lives) but I would have happily taken a fill-in creator until then. Even a empty, generic "spinning wheels" arc with a no-name writer would've been better than more Jurgens on Nightwing.

----------


## Claude

"The Original Titans" are also guesting in the last issue of Teen Titans, so presumably Dick's in there too.

But seriously, even if the book itself had been gold-plated - the Jurgens era solicit copy has just been _appalling._ Full of awkwardly repeated phrases and typos. They just don't care.

----------


## Drako

> "*The Original Titans" are also guesting in the last issue of Teen Titans, so presumably Dick's in there too.*
> 
> But seriously, even if the book itself had been gold-plated - the Jurgens era solicit copy has just been _appalling._ Full of awkwardly repeated phrases and typos. They just don't care.


I think this correlates with the rumors of a new Titans book that Alex Ross accidentally teased on his instagram.

I'm guessing this is Dick as Robin:

https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...855680/photo/1




> A beautiful page from JUSTICE LEAGUE #53, the first part of the Death Metal crossover called DOOM METAL. Out in September. 
> Art by 
> @Xermanico
>  & Romulo Fajardo Jr. This issue looks AMAZING.

----------


## Restingvoice

EfYBSO3WoAACXnF.jpg
Nightwing cart design for Nightwing Annual
Otto Schmidt's words, not mine

----------


## Ascended

Yup, definitely the Metal tie-in arc with Dick, Kori, Vic, Hawkgirl and Detective Chimp. Looks like a "remembering the good days" flashback.

I can't wait to read that arc. Don't even care about Metal, it'll just be nice to read Nightwing again.

...what's up with the bike? Was that from the annual a few months ago? I didn't know Otto did any work in that?

----------


## Claude

> I think this correlates with the rumors of a new Titans book that Alex Ross accidentally teased on his instagram.


Presumably so! The Titans are in Nightwing 75 too, right? Between that and the reunion in Justice League, feels like a bit of a build-up. 

An announcement at Fandome next weekend seems possible.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yup, definitely the Metal tie-in arc with Dick, Kori, Vic, Hawkgirl and Detective Chimp. Looks like a "remembering the good days" flashback.
> 
> I can't wait to read that arc. Don't even care about Metal, it'll just be nice to read Nightwing again.
> 
> ...what's up with the bike? Was that from the annual a few months ago? I didn't know Otto did any work in that?


It's from the annual before he became Ric

----------


## K. Jones

I feel like it could be a nice moment if this Death Metal tie-in isn't just a reunion but is also like, the Justice League being like ... okay so ... we're the big seven and you know it and we have all these side-teams and divisions but hey ... you know who would round this Big Seven out to a pretty epic Top Ten? Nightwing, Cyborg and Starfire. Nightwing, the only man Batman trusts (beyond friendship) in the field when he's not there! Starfire ... a SPACE AMAZON ... and Cyborg, who they've already tried to fit into the Justice League inorganically.

What else in Grayson news this week? I hope Bea isn't fridged? She seems like she's going to get fridged. Her existence is problematic purely because she existed within the confines of the "Ric Grayson Storyline" which wouldn't even be a good one-shot, but I'd at least like to see her reduced to a footnote in history from a tale that's like "The Time I Dated An Amnesiac Nightwing" one-shot. Also KGBeast really needs to stop making a big fuss out of everything. He's trying to reconfirm his Nightwing kill ... he's got Batman breaking his neck, Damian coming after him, he is going to draw way too much heat down on himself.

----------


## Badou

I hope Bea and the fake Nightwings get fridged. Just worthless characters who added nothing of value but even more time is being wasted on her character because the Nightwing book is just spinning its wheels until the relaunch/cancellation at this point. It's completely devoid of anything actually interesting or creative.

----------


## DurararaFTW

I hope the fake Nightwings make it. We straight away get a few Bludhaven PD that Nightwing has a working relationship with. That helps build the setting. The quicker ties are cut with Bea the better though.

----------


## Rakiduam

> NIGHTWING #76
> 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 11/17/20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
> ...



Oh fridging! More bad tropes, lovely.

----------


## Ascended

> I feel like it could be a nice moment if this Death Metal tie-in isn't just a reunion but is also like, the Justice League being like ... okay so ... we're the big seven and you know it and we have all these side-teams and divisions but hey ... you know who would round this Big Seven out to a pretty epic Top Ten? Nightwing, Cyborg and Starfire


Don't you dare tempt me with such a beautiful idea! 




> KGBeast really needs to stop making a big fuss out of everything. He's trying to reconfirm his Nightwing kill ... he's got Batman breaking his neck, Damian coming after him, he is going to draw way too much heat down on himself.


I almost wonder if they're not trying to establish the Beast as a Nightwing rogue, like they did with Blockbuster. 

I'm not really against the idea, though KGBeast isn't exactly a high caliber villain.




> I hope the fake Nightwings make it. We straight away get a few Bludhaven PD that Nightwing has a working relationship with. That helps build the setting. The quicker ties are cut with Bea the better though.


Shhh! You can't say that here, you'll get yelled at!  :Smile:  

I actually suggested the same kind of thing a while back; these fakewings could be folded into Dick's supporting cast and with a little time and distance, their time as "Nightwings" is a weird detail in the history, like when Gordon was Batman. A year or two after Ric, a little character development, and these guys would be serviceable members of Dick's supporting cast. But people around here get worked up by the idea of anything from the Ric saga lingering.

Bea....I don't need her fridged, because troupes like that shouldn't be a thing. I'd rather she and Dick just walk away and he never sees or hears from her again.

But if she dies....ain't gonna hurt my feelings either.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing and Starfire by Otto Schmidt


https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...123841/photo/1

----------


## Wingin' It

> Nightwing and Starfire by Otto Schmidt
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...123841/photo/1


I love it!

----------


## Godlike13

> NIGHTWING #76
> 
> 
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by RONAN CLIQUET
> cover by TRAVIS MOORE
> variant cover by ALAN QUAH
> ON SALE 11/17/20
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
> ...



See this is why Jurgans needed to be pulled off this book. He’s just turning Nightwing into Ric. This is now the 3rd time he is repeating the same damn story beat back to back. Nightwing is “back” yet it’s the same thing happing with the same Ric characters. 

Btw Bea is not gonna get fridged. Just like with Talon, and then a Joker, and now KG Beast.

----------


## Wingin' It

> See this is why Jurgans needed to be pulled off this book. He’s just turning Nightwing into Ric. This is now the 3rd time he is repeating the same damn story beat back to back. Nightwing is “back” yet it’s the same thing happing with the same Ric characters. 
> 
> Btw Bea is not gonna get fridged. Just like with Talon, and then a Joker, and now KG Beast.


As awfully redundant as that solicit is, I hope it means he and Bea are breaking up. It's awfully weird to date a guy with amnesia...especially that now with his memories returned, he's basically a different person.

----------


## Godlike13

That relationship should be over as soon as Dick was back. Because Dick isn’t Ric. They told us that like 100+ times. It was like every other thing Ric said. Yet here is KG Beast using Bea as bait just like Talon, just like Joker. Aiming for his “broken heart” even though Bea is Ric’s girlfriend. This is just the same creators, doing the same things, with the same characters. Making Dick’s return rather pointless. This is just Ric as Nightwing.

----------


## Wingin' It

> That relationship should be over as soon as Dick was back. Because Dick isn’t Ric. They told us that like 100+ times. It was like every other thing Ric said. Yet here is KG Beast using Bea as bait just like Talon, just like Joker. Aiming for his “broken heart” even though Bea is Ric’s girlfriend. This is just the same creators, doing the same things, with the same characters. Making Dick’s return rather pointless. This is just Ric as Nightwing.


I think it's pretty obvious that Jurgens is tying up loose ends before we get a new creative team. He's said as much in interviews.

----------


## Godlike13

He can claim whatever, just like he claimed Ric was so interesting and then did nothing interesting. He's clearly dragging things out again. His run wasn't particularly complex. His lose end don't require more then one issue to wrap up. Instead though were getting basically just another Ric arc painted with Dick. Dick has returned but what is different here. Gotham Bat villain comes after Dick, Bea gets dangled as bait, this is every Ric story he has told. Whats more. Bea isn't Dick's girlfriend, she was Ric's. How is this even a shot at Dick's heart. 
This arc probably will end with Dick and Bea broken up. As that really is the only lose end here. Though that's not something that takes multiple issues as Dick and Bea were never dating in the first place. But Jurgens being Jurgens, here is more dragged out bull crap, literally repeating the same things, regardless if they even makes sense. But all rejoice, Dick is back. Doing exactly what Ric did, with the same lazy creator...

----------


## yohyoi

No one hates Nightwing more than Nightwing fans. Some Nightwing fans also hate other Nightwing fans. From debating comics, the writers, ship wars, animated, live action, etc. It never ends. Here, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, etc. The only time there is peace is when we are talking about Nightwing's ass.

----------


## Wingin' It

> No one hates Nightwing more than Nightwing fans. Some Nightwing fans also hate other Nightwing fans. From debating comics, the writers, ship wars, animated, live action, etc. It never ends. Here, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, etc. The only time there is peace is when we are talking about Nightwing's ass.


The craptastic two years we've gotten comics-wise aside, it kinda comes with the territory when you have a character as old as Dick Grayson is. There's a ton of different interpretations, you're never going to please everybody.

----------


## yohyoi

> The craptastic two years we've gotten comics-wise aside, it kinda comes with the territory when you have a character as old as Dick Grayson is. There's a ton of different interpretations, you're never going to please everybody.


I agree but compared to other characters we are in a whole different level. The only thing that is equal is Superman fans arguing.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I agree but compared to other characters we are in a whole different level. The only thing that is equal is Superman fans arguing.


So...the oldest characters with the longest histories and more interpretations? Without counting Batman of course.

I really don't think that complain about complains add too much to any discussion.

----------


## Drako

> No one hates Nightwing more than Nightwing fans. Some Nightwing fans also hate other Nightwing fans. From debating comics, the writers, ship wars, animated, live action, etc. It never ends. Here, Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit, etc. The only time there is peace is when we are talking about Nightwing's ass.


I think it's more a thing here than any other place. I don't use tumblr, so i can speak about there, but reddit and twitter i only see people complaining about the Ric mess.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think it's more a thing here than any other place. I don't use Tumblr, so I can speak about there, but Reddit and twitter I only see people complaining about the Ric mess.


Tumblr hates Ric too with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 people

----------


## Drako

> Tumblr hates Ric too with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 people


No surprise. Everybody hates Ric.

----------


## Ascended

> I agree but compared to other characters we are in a whole different level. The only thing that is equal is Superman fans arguing.


Eighty years of history with a lot of highly varied approaches to the character. Yeah of course the fans have different ideas on what they want out of Dick Grayson. He's been a lot of things over the years and we all like certain versions over others.

If you really want to see fans argue, go ask Green Lantern fans which Lantern is the best.

----------


## Drako

preview of the next issue:
https://comixwire.com/2020/08/15/pag...-73-comic-a20/

----------


## Restingvoice

> preview of the next issue:
> https://comixwire.com/2020/08/15/pag...-73-comic-a20/


Idk why it's so funny to me that Joker's brainwash includes the memory of The Flying Graysons being deadbeat

I think it's because it's such a typical backstory

----------


## Rac7d*

Does a court of owls batman game mean good things for our boy?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Does a court of owls batman game mean good things for our boy?


does the court of owls comic good for our boy?

----------


## Claude

> Does a court of owls batman game mean good things for our boy?


Depends - a hefty, plot-driving role would be good for exposure. A weak "hostage" role, or tiny cameo, probably hurts. As ever, we're down to execution!

Also, I'm torn - I've always thought there was a case to really push the Owls/Dick connection, although it's been tried a *lot* and never really worked. A hugely successful game that makes that establishes that connection in the mind of a wider audience might be good - on the other hand, it's a *Batman* game. And solidifying the Owl/Dick connection in a game where the Owls are Bruce's nemeses just brings us back to square one.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, that's what I meant. In comics, Dick's role is limited to William Cobb and The Circus, so if The Court Arkham game happens, he'll be given a more sizeable playable portion compared to the rest of the family, an area in Haly's Circus for example, but it's still a Batman game and Batman's story.

So it depends on what you consider good. 

Even that is only if they wanna be accurate. In the WB movie, they throw that role to Damian.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick barely played a role in the actual Court story. The Haley’s element was a supplementary connection to further bolster them as Batman villains, but Dick himself was hardly important. The stuff Nightwing writers did with the Court is throwaway. Pretty sure Jurgens didn’t even read the initial Court arc his interpretation was so off and generic. Not too mention a rather obvious desperate attempt to try and make up some sort of after the fact sense to Dick’s poorly thought out predicament.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Not unless they turn backhanding the molar out of Dick's mouth into a fulllength boss fight.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Should the Court even be a thing for Dick? Whether he is a talcon or not

----------


## WonderNight

> Should the Court even be a thing for Dick? Whether he is a talcon or not


What I've learned is when it comes to dick is that the questions are not what's good for dick but what about dick is good for bruce. So dick connections to the court works for batman so the connection isn't going anywhere.

----------


## Claude

You know, it occurs to me - if they ever did a Full Reboot, then the Court of Owls taking the place of HIVE in the Titans/Deathstroke history works quite neatly. Grant Wilson wants to be a Talon, the Owls let him become one as part of their lure to get Dick involved - which is why Slade blames Dick specifically.

I know others in the thread are more purist than I, but if I'm honest I wouldn't miss HIVE if they were gone.

----------


## DurararaFTW

HIVE feels like yesterdays news but I feel Court of Owls is a very Gotham thing. I prefer the Titans in New York or San Francisco.

----------


## Ascended

> Should the Court even be a thing for Dick? Whether he is a talcon or not


The Court could be a fine addition to Dick's mythos, but not if the strings are still being pulled solely for the benefit of Bruce. 

Court of Owls is a big enough concept and organization that it can operate in Batman stories *and* independent Nightwing stories without there being a ton of overlap or interconnection, allowing Dick to retain his own agency, but DC has to allow that, or the Court just becomes one more chain around Dick's neck.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

The HIVE are pretty lame and always have been, but (despite debuting in a Superman comic) they purely belong to Nightwing and the Titans.

The Court is slightly less lame, but has to be shared with Batman, so it cancels out as being much of an improvement.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The only Court thing I wanted to see happen was a game that would be an adaptation of Dark Victory and Robin: Year One, but with the Owls wrapped in. I feel like that's the only way you can write a "Batman story" that's also about Dick and the Owls without it being a revamped, DickBats version of the original story.

----------


## Wingin' It

I'm not all about the Court as a part of Dick's past for the reasons mentioned above; I don't think it really adds much to the Court of Owls story as it was written nor to Dick's character, and actively takes away from the happy childhood he had.

I like the fact that Dick came from a relatively "normal", working-class family only to have the rug pulled out from under him due to tragic circumstances and learning to adapt and cope. The Court recruiting children from Haly's taints his past; now, he never would have been a regular, happy kid if Bruce hadn't taken him in. It almost lessens the loss he had to endure if we know that this would have been the inevitable result Tony Zucco or no. I guess I prefer the juxtaposition of what could have been rather than one tragedy causing Dick to avoid another.

----------


## Morgoth

> Does a court of owls batman game mean good things for our boy?


Well, he probably will have a big role there, because this game, presumably, is Batfamily oriented.

----------


## Drako

> Well, he probably will have a big role there, because this game, presumably, is Batfamily oriented.


Rumors say that the game it's called Gotham Knights and the batfamily is playable.

One more month until Ric is over!!

----------


## Godlike13

73 continues the level one has come to expect on this book. Jurgens continues to have a pittance of story he is just needlessly stretching. The whole issue is completely unnecessary really. The only thing this issue tells us really is that Dicky Boy is ineffective and rather weak. Which is too funny, but exactly the kind of poorly thought out writing I have come to expect from Jurgens and the Nightwing crew. So Dicky Boy is suppose to be one of Jokers new weapons in this War, Dick is on Joker’s side so watch out Batfamily and all that, and you know how Punchline is tearing through everyone to try and sell her as a credible threat, well Dicky Boy is the opposite of that. He sucks. Classic case of telling readers how dangerous he should be while simultaneously demonstrating the exact opposite. 
Jugens did this a lot with his last annual too. It has become very apparent to me Jurgens thinks very little of the intelligence of his audience. This goes back with him trying to having Ric getting Dick’s pre-flashpoint memories back. It’s as if they think if they just tell readers one thing they won’t notice you showing them another. Anyway, if anyone was expecting Dicky Boy to be a threat. Don’t. He’s not. He’s the guy they are gonna use to re-pad the rep Punchline might diminish. 

Another thing the art and layouts are at an all time low here too. Very rough and amateurish. This run hasn’t really seen decent art save from the odd pages they have Moore do here and there to, IMO, try and trick readers, but the art here was particularly weak.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

> Nightwing and Starfire by Otto Schmidt
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...123841/photo/1



I love it when artists remember Kory is taller than Dick. His little smirk is killing me.




> Does a court of owls batman game mean good things for our boy?


You could very easily excise Dick out of the story. I love the Arkham games but the stories are pretty basic and they are not really that great at character development. It would be easier to stream line it and focus it around Bruce. That would be my guess anyway

----------


## Restingvoice

Did they ever named which elementary and middle school Dick go?

----------


## Wingin' It

> Did they ever named which elementary and middle school Dick go?


I know in Dixon's run, Dick went to public school because he felt more comfortable there than at a private or prep school. In Young Justice, he goes to Gotham Academy.

----------


## Aahz

> Did they ever named which elementary and middle school Dick go?


In Robin Year One, he goes to the Bristol Middle School, In comics set at the beginning on his career (that gibe any indication about his age) he is usually to old for elementary school.

----------


## Restingvoice

and he's homeschooled in Haly's since they travel a lot

----------


## Wingin' It

Right, he was elementary-school age (8) when he was taken in by Bruce in the Golden age, but post-crisis his age was bumped up to 12. If there's anything about elementary schooling it would be during that era.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I often thought all the robins that have gone to the same school. I mean even going to public schools doesn't mean they are bad. There are specialized public schools. Even at a young age.

----------


## Aahz

> Right, he was elementary-school age (8) when he was taken in by Bruce in the Golden age


Thats also pretty dubios imo, his age is never clearly stated, and imo there is stuff in his first comics that implies that he is older.

The first time age 8 is really stated is in New Teen Titans in the 1980s, and it iirc contradicted what stated in the Batman comics from that era.

And I have still yet to find a comic were Dick is clearly shown to be Robin as an elementary school kid.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing with big hair by Francis Manapul from one of those many Death Metal spin-offs, i don't know which one.



https://www.instagram.com/p/CEC1c9UpNjO/

----------


## Ascended

That's my ideal Grayson haircut.

----------


## Digifiend

> The HIVE are pretty lame and always have been, but (despite debuting in a Superman comic) they purely belong to Nightwing and the Titans.
> 
> The Court is slightly less lame, but has to be shared with Batman, so it cancels out as being much of an improvement.


Of course, HIVE was one of several villains stolen by Arrow from Nightwing (Brother Blood and Deathstroke too).

----------


## Badou

> Thats also pretty dubios imo, his age is never clearly stated, and imo there is stuff in his first comics that implies that he is older.
> 
> The first time age 8 is really stated is in New Teen Titans in the 1980s, and it iirc contradicted what stated in the Batman comics from that era.
> 
> And I have still yet to find a comic were Dick is clearly shown to be Robin as an elementary school kid.


Isn't there that Golden Age comic where Batman is spanking Dick on his birthday? And he gives him 8 or 9 spanks and one to grow. So it is implied he is 9 or 10 I think then, but that era it isn't like they paid attention to character ages that much. 

Found it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

With Deathstroke, he is a hit man for hire so. But yea  it sucks. I mean can the Hive work? I mean Brotherblood and hive often worked together.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Thats also pretty dubios imo, his age is never clearly stated, and imo there is stuff in his first comics that implies that he is older.
> 
> The first time age 8 is really stated is in New Teen Titans in the 1980s, and it iirc contradicted what stated in the Batman comics from that era.
> 
> And I have still yet to find a comic were Dick is clearly shown to be Robin as an elementary school kid.


The first time I saw his school was when he's dancing at a school party and met DC's Ant-Man, and during Kathy and Bethy Kane's era, but it's not clear how old he is. He can be 12-14.

The earliest school situation was when Dick infiltrated a boy's dorm in another school. This one is before the birthday spank, but even during that time, Dick isn't shown to go to school anywhere besides this.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Nightwing with big hair by Francis Manapul from one of those many Death Metal spin-offs, i don't know which one.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/CEC1c9UpNjO/


I think this is my favorite hair length for him.

----------


## Restingvoice

Holt uploaded DC Fandome promo by Jim Lee and there are 3 Dicks in it. Teen Titans, Young Justice, and comic version
EfvZ1KdWkAIYpc4.jpg

----------


## Wingin' It

> Holt uploaded DC Fandome promo by Jim Lee and there are 3 Dicks in it. Teen Titans, Young Justice, and comic version
> EfvZ1KdWkAIYpc4.jpg


I saw that too! Very nice. He's getting pretty good representation across DC media.

----------


## Konja7

It is also possible this Robin is Dick too. His suit is similar to Dick Robin's suit in Titans (although the colors are brighter). 

EfvZ1KdWkAMSjK5.jpg

----------


## Jackalope89

> It is also possible this Robin is Dick too. His suit is similar to Dick Robin's suit in Titans (although the colors are brighter). 
> 
> EfvZ1KdWkAMSjK5.jpg


There was that Teen Titans Wal-Mart books that had Robin that had all of Dick's traits, friends, etc. but turned out to be Tim.

----------


## Restingvoice

> There was that Teen Titans Wal-Mart books that had Robin that had all of Dick's traits, friends, etc. but turned out to be Tim.


That one has exposed biceps.

----------


## Aahz

> Isn't there that Golden Age comic where Batman is spanking Dick on his birthday? And he gives him 8 or 9 spanks and one to grow. So it is implied he is 9 or 10 I think then, but that era it isn't like they paid attention to character ages that much. 
> 
> Found it.


Which doesn't match the number of candles on his cake, and that he get's his own plane as a birthday present.
A few issues later you see Dicks Report card at school, and he has classes like Latin, physics and chemistry, which isn't really elementary school stuff.
And there are several issues were Dick takes up jobs as part of undercover investigations, you would probably also not give to an 8 year old.

----------


## Mr.B

> It is also possible this Robin is Dick too. His suit is similar to Dick Robin's suit in Titans (although the colors are brighter). 
> 
> EfvZ1KdWkAMSjK5.jpg


Bigger image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfvoAhgW...pg&name=medium

----------


## Aahz

> The first time I saw his school was when he's dancing at a school party and met DC's Ant-Man, and during Kathy and Bethy Kane's era, but it's not clear how old he is. He can be 12-14.


He was allready established to be in high school and roughly 15 in his golden age solos stories in Star-Spangled Comics.

And I think the first time we see him is his school is in "Robin Studies His Lessons" in Batman #18 (and that doesn't seem to be an elementary school).

----------


## Restingvoice

> He was already established to be in high school and roughly 15 in his golden age solos stories in Star-Spangled Comics.
> 
> And I think the first time we see him is his school is in "Robin Studies His Lessons" in Batman #18 (and that doesn't seem to be an elementary school).


Oh so he's just short

----------


## Wingin' It

> Oh so he's just short


Maybe, but I also think the golden age played fast and loose with continuity. They were more focused on telling one-off stories to sell to kids.

----------


## redmax99

> Oh so he's just short


can i ask what you're researching i'm so curious now

----------


## Aahz

> Oh so he's just short


It is nor unusual in comics and animation to draw kids and teen absurdly small.

I mean Damian is supposed to be 13 and has the size of a nine year old.

The YJ4 are all at least 16, which would in real live mean that they should be pretty close to their adult hight, but they are all a head shorter than the adult heroes (and in Tim's case also than his own future selfs from alternate time lines).

----------


## Konja7

> It is nor unusual in comics and animation to draw kids and teen absurdly small.
> 
> I mean Damian is supposed to be 13 and has the size of a nine year old.
> 
> The YJ4 are all at least 16, which would in real live mean that they should be pretty close to their adult hight, but they are all a head shorter than the adult heroes (and in Tim's case also than his own future selfs from alternate time lines).


It isn't just that they are just short at 16 compared to Adult heroes. 

It is always implied that teens at 16 will still grow a lot to the time they become adults. They usually become so tall as their mentors. 

Of course, this isn't anymore the case for Dick, since he's already an adult, but DC wants him to be shorter than Bruce.

----------


## Ascended

I feel like Dick being a little short (by hero standards) is pretty much the norm. Kory is much taller than he is as well, and basically always has been. 

No idea what Dick's official height is, but I'm pretty sure he's just of average height, which makes him look short compared to the towering giants that are most superheroes.

Personally, I think it's a great detail.

----------


## TheCape

> I feel like Dick being a little short (by hero standards) is pretty much the norm. Kory is much taller than he is as well, and basically always has been. 
> 
> No idea what Dick's official height is, but I'm pretty sure he's just of average height, which makes him look short compared to the towering giants that are most superheroes.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a great detail.


I remember some comments about how Dick was a little less talk than his Pre-Flashpoint version back when the New 52 started, but i never gave it much thought, comic books are rarely consistent with heigths.

----------


## Konja7

> I remember some comments about how Dick was a little less talk than his Pre-Flashpoint version back when the New 52 started, but i never gave it much thought, comic books are rarely consistent with heigths.


I wouldn't be surprised that Dick was taller as Batman.

It is clear DC use the height as a certain symbol of hierarchy in the Bat-Family. Just look New52 Batman #1 when Bruce appear along Dick, Tim and Damian.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I feel like Dick being a little short (by hero standards) is pretty much the norm. Kory is much taller than he is as well, and basically always has been. 
> 
> No idea what Dick's official height is, but I'm pretty sure he's just of average height, which makes him look short compared to the towering giants that are most superheroes.
> 
> Personally, I think it's a great detail.





> I remember some comments about how Dick was a little less talk than his Pre-Flashpoint version back when the New 52 started, but i never gave it much thought, comic books are rarely consistent with heigths.


Dick's 6' Pre Crisis and 5'10" starting later Post Crisis
Kori's 6'3" Pre Crisis and getting shorter as time passes until she's the same height or shorter than Dick depending on the artist
Bruce is always 6'2" 
Babs used to be 5'10-11" and changed to 5'8" starting New 52
Jason's official bio tend to go with 6'-6'2" but the art always makes him shorter than Dick starting New 52 because they like that Batfam stairs

----------


## Wingin' It

> Dick's 6' Pre Crisis and 5'10" starting later Post Crisis
> Kori's 6'3" Pre Crisis and getting shorter as time passes until she's the same height or shorter than Dick depending on the artist
> Bruce is always 6'2" 
> Babs used to be 5'10-11" and changed to 5'8" starting New 52
> Jason's official bio tend to go with 6'-6'2" but the art always makes him shorter than Dick starting New 52 because they like that Batfam stairs


"Batfam stairs" that's too funny.

----------


## Zaresh

> "Batfam stairs" that's too funny.


Yeah, but unfortunately, it's true. Most artists draw them taller or shorter depending on their order of creation, sometimes depending on their hierarchy in the fam too. That's why Jason's and Tim's height are so inconsistent art wise.

----------


## Rakiduam

It's too inconsistent too mean anything. Like the skin tone, hair cut, eyes' color. Birthday. In the end is a visual medium, they may use characteristics and design to tell a story or just because it looks cool, whatever fits the mood.

----------


## Ascended

> Dick's 6' Pre Crisis and 5'10" starting later Post Crisis
> Kori's 6'3" Pre Crisis


5'10" is what I remember for Dick. Or maybe it was 5'8" or something. I think he was the exact average height for an American male, which is pretty short by superhero standards. 

Not that height means anything in comics or is ever treated with any consistency. But I like it when Nightwing is short compared to his peers. 

So a preview for Batman 99 is up. I'm glad the Ric nightmare is almost over. I still probably won't read the book until Jurgens leaves....but I gotta admit I'm tempted to grab 75; it's been a long time since I got an issue of Nightwing and I'm feeling the itch.

----------


## Drako

Pages from JUSTICE LEAGUE #53
https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...24526618075138

----------


## Wingin' It

> Pages from JUSTICE LEAGUE #53
> https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...24526618075138


Dang, I am really digging the art!

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

The benefit of being included in the actual event for once and not the event's sub-event is good art lol.

----------


## Claude

> Pages from JUSTICE LEAGUE #53
> https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...24526618075138


Oooh! 

When Williamson goes on Titans - which surely he will do, after this and his "not finished with the Flash Family" tease - can we keep Xermanico too?

----------


## Godlike13

Damn, that preview was like a cup of water in a desert. Been too long Nightwing was in something that seemed like it could be even semi competent.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hang on I'm counting again
Rebirth backstory timespan is around 10-15 years
Dick here is based on New 52 around 16 years old
He's adopted as a child in King's Batman, unclear age

Okay yeah I can work with this

Say as an example Rebirth back story is 15 years 
Current Nightwing - 25 years old
9 years ago - Justice League first meeting - 16 years old
4 years further (13 years ago) - Adopted - 12 years old 
That still leaves 2 years - 15 years ago - Batman Year One

I mean there's no set age for his childhood so it can range between 10 to 12 years old but placing it at 12 conveniently set it in Batman Year Three

Well it makes sense if it's just Dick but you add Tim and Jon, and you have Dick meeting the League for the first time around the same time Jon was born and Tim already Robin and meeting Kon

----------


## Badou

> Pages from JUSTICE LEAGUE #53
> https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...24526618075138


They are going to use the shitty New 52 Robin costume aren't they and ruin it all?

----------


## Rac7d*

> They are going to use the shitty New 52 Robin costume aren't they and ruin it all?


He aint going back to the leotard and pixie boots soooooooo

----------


## Badou

> He ain’t going back to the leotard and pixie boots soooooooo


Fine. Put pants and boots on his iconic costume then. It is such a simple fix but they keep reusing the awful New 52 costume. It looks so dull to me. The fucking Teen Titans cartoon of the early 2000s understood this but modern DC Comics can't for some reason.

----------


## Ascended

> He aint going back to the leotard and pixie boots soooooooo


Exactly this.

And I'm fine with that. I'm sure the short shorts will still show up here and there in other products and stories, but main continuity isn't going to be hurt by that outfit not returning in its purely original aesthetic.

That said I don't want or need a bunch of excess on the costume either; you start adding in crap and you're left with a generic design that could belong to anyone. So I'd rather Dick's Robin suit just have some proper pants and boots, and leave all the rest largely as-is. But some pants aren't a problem, and I'm sure young Grayson will appreciate it during those cold Gotham nights.  :Smile:

----------


## DurararaFTW

Hopefully they'll adapt something more akin to the tv show now.

----------


## Lazurus33

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2020/0...to-save-gotham

Ef45-bRXkAQh4H3.jpgEf45-o4XkAM2rad.jpg

----------


## Drako

> They are going to use the shitty New 52 Robin costume aren't they and ruin it all?


As soon as i posted the preview, I knew you would comment about the suit at some point.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

> Hang on I'm counting again
> Rebirth backstory timespan is around 10-15 years
> Dick here is based on New 52 around 16 years old
> He's adopted as a child in King's Batman, unclear age
> 
> Okay yeah I can work with this
> 
> Say as an example Rebirth back story is 15 years 
> Current Nightwing - 25 years old
> ...


If Dick is around 16 there does that mean he became Robin before the Justice League formed? Or is DC still going with the idea that Dick didn't become Robin until he was 15-16 still like in the New 52? Since it felt like for a long time DC wanted to make sure that the JL formed before Dick became Robin. It was very important to DC to establish that. If Dick became Robin at around 10 or 12 years old I don't know if DC would like the idea of Dick being Robin for 4-6 years before the JL existed. 

So something feels a bit off here. I think Dick looks too old to be meeting the JL for the first time, or for some reason they are keeping the New 52 era ages? It is just weird. 




> As soon as i posted the preview, I knew you would comment about the suit at some point.


I'll never understand it. There have been so many awful New 52 costumes and designs replaced and forgotten about (even Superman there is in his classic design with the red shorts) but for some reason this New 52 Robin one sticks around. It is completely uninspiring. You don't see any fanart of it or cosplay of it and it holds no special place at all in the fandom outside of being a reference to a bad stretch of comics, but it lingers around like a cancer or something. It just doesn't go away. 

There is the iconic Robin costume that if you think is too dated that is fine, but instead of trying to take that iconic costume and change it in a way where it retains its iconic status and imagery we are just left with a bland "modern" Robin costume that no one cares about. It isn't how you properly support a brand and I don't really understand DC's thought process.

----------


## Ascended

> There is the iconic Robin costume that if you think is too dated that is fine, but instead of trying to take that iconic costume and change it in a way where it retains its iconic status and imagery we are just left with a bland "modern" Robin costume that no one cares about. It isn't how you properly support a brand and I don't really understand DC's thought process.


Just at a guess? DC doesn't care about the new old costume being recognizable or iconic. 

We only see Dick's Robin suit in flashback, so it's not like it's got a big presence in the first place. And as long as it maintains the things that make a Robin costume recognizable (mask, cape, logo, color scheme) they're not gonna sweat the overall design sensibility. 

They can and do still use the classic suit in their products (like Batman 66) and merchandise, so they're still profiting off of it. 

Plus, making Dick and Jason's Robin suits super generic actually helps DC market Robin. A Robin in a generic suit could be any of them. A Robin in short shorts and pixie boots is far more recognizable and helps establish the identity of the person behind the mask. That gets in the way of the brand, in DC's reckoning.

If they ever did a big "Dick Grayson origin" story somewhere, as a mini or whatever, one would hope that they'd take his classic costume, throw some pants on it, and call it a day, retaining the original design everywhere except those silly ass shorts. Because you're right, the new old costume is generic and boring AF and could belong to any street level hero if you change the colors and logo. But it only appears in flashbacks, so it's not a priority for DC.

----------


## Restingvoice

> If Dick is around 16 there does that mean he became Robin before the Justice League formed? Or is DC still going with the idea that Dick didn't become Robin until he was 15-16 still like in the New 52? Since it felt like for a long time DC wanted to make sure that the JL formed before Dick became Robin. It was very important to DC to establish that. If Dick became Robin at around 10 or 12 years old I don't know if DC would like the idea of Dick being Robin for 4-6 years before the JL existed. 
> 
> So something feels a bit off here. I think Dick looks too old to be meeting the JL for the first time, or for some reason they are keeping the New 52 era ages? It is just weird.


We still don't know exactly when he became Robin. The earliest Dick age was in King's Batman, as a child, but he's just Dick there, really early on after his parents' death, still not Robin. 

Unless there's something in Jurgens Nightwing but I'm not reading that

Technically both The Justice League and Robin can have their origin whenever in that first 5 years, but according to this preview Dick apparently only met them when he's a teen

----------


## Badou

> Just at a guess? DC doesn't care about the new old costume being recognizable or iconic. 
> 
> We only see Dick's Robin suit in flashback, so it's not like it's got a big presence in the first place. And as long as it maintains the things that make a Robin costume recognizable (mask, cape, logo, color scheme) they're not gonna sweat the overall design sensibility. 
> 
> They can and do still use the classic suit in their products (like Batman 66) and merchandise, so they're still profiting off of it. 
> 
> Plus, making Dick and Jason's Robin suits super generic actually helps DC market Robin. A Robin in a generic suit could be any of them. A Robin in short shorts and pixie boots is far more recognizable and helps establish the identity of the person behind the mask. That gets in the way of the brand, in DC's reckoning.
> 
> If they ever did a big "Dick Grayson origin" story somewhere, as a mini or whatever, one would hope that they'd take his classic costume, throw some pants on it, and call it a day, retaining the original design everywhere except those silly ass shorts. Because you're right, the new old costume is generic and boring AF and could belong to any street level hero if you change the colors and logo. But it only appears in flashbacks, so it's not a priority for DC.


I think they do care about iconic costumes, but they just don't care about Dick's Robin costume specifically. You see how much effort they are putting into making Superman's costume look more "iconic" with giving him his shorts back, and even giving Wonder Woman her classic golden elements instead of the silver her New 52 one had, but Dick is still stuck with his same garbage costume. It's frustrating to me. 

And it sucks because this is what we are stuck with in basically every flashback with Dick as Robin now which is the only time he appears as Robin in a comic anymore. Flashbacks are all we get as there isn't really any modern Dick as Robin era comic stories. It ruins every continued appearance as Dick as Robin now because they are filtered though him and this awful New 52 costume, which means no one will ever look at these appearance as anything memorable. 

Also I think Jason's New 52 Robin costume is actually WAY better than Dick's New 52 one. It actually retained a lot more classic elements. It had basic green pants and boots without the dumb things added on like Dick's, no crotch arrow, gave him a belt, had a less cluttered red vest, but also had the classic yellow cape and the open arms. Jason fans actually like that costume which is why you see it pop up in a lot of fanart with him still, but no one cares about Dick's New 52 one. 




> We still don't know exactly when he became Robin. The earliest Dick age was in King's Batman, as a child, but he's just Dick there, really early on after his parents' death, still not Robin. 
> 
> Unless there's something in Jurgens Nightwing but I'm not reading that
> 
> Technically both The Justice League and Robin can have their origin whenever in that first 5 years, but according to this preview Dick apparently only met them when he's a teen


It's just weird. If this is Dick's first time meeting the JL then there are 3 options and all are a bit odd to me. Either he became Robin late (no Boy Wonder era) like in the New 52 when he was around 16 and he meets the JL shortly after becoming Robin, he became Robin as a kid (8 to 12 years old) and was Robin for years until the JL first formed when he was around 16 and he meets them, or lastly he became Robin as a kid (8 to 12 years old) and the JL formed at the same time or before he was Robin but he didn't meet the JL even though he had been Robin for 4-8 years. 

To me this feels like they are still trying to force in some New 52 elements by not wanting Dick to be Robin at a young age because of how it might effect some other characters, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I think they do care about iconic costumes, but they just don't care about Dick's Robin costume specifically. You see how much effort they are putting into making Superman's costume look more "iconic" with giving him his shorts back, and even giving Wonder Woman her classic golden elements instead of the silver her New 52 one had, but Dick is still stuck with his same garbage costume. It's frustrating to me. 
> 
> And it sucks because this is what we are stuck with in basically every flashback with Dick as Robin now which is the only time he appears as Robin in a comic anymore. Flashbacks are all we get as there isn't really any modern Dick as Robin era comic stories. It ruins every continued appearance as Dick as Robin now because they are filtered though him and this awful New 52 costume, which means no one will ever look at these appearance as anything memorable. 
> 
> Also I think Jason's New 52 Robin costume is actually WAY better than Dick's New 52 one. It actually retained a lot more classic elements. It had basic green pants and boots without the dumb things added on like Dick's, no crotch arrow, gave him a belt, had a less cluttered red vest, but also had the classic yellow cape and the open arms. Jason fans actually like that costume which is why you see it pop up in a lot of fanart with him still, but no one cares about Dick's New 52 one. 
> 
> 
> 
> It's just weird. If this is Dick's first time meeting the JL then there are 3 options and all are a bit odd to me. Either he became Robin late (no Boy Wonder era) like in the New 52 when he was around 16 and he meets the JL shortly after becoming Robin, he became Robin as a kid (8 to 12 years old) and was Robin for years until the JL first formed when he was around 16 and he meets them, or lastly he became Robin as a kid (8 to 12 years old) and the JL formed at the same time or before he was Robin but he didn't meet the JL even though he had been Robin for 4-8 years. 
> ...


Looks like the last option's the case, both JL and Robin existing but not interacting for quite some time. RIP Superman/Robin friendship.

----------


## WonderNight

Hey isn't that the batman arkham batmobile?

----------


## Konja7

> Looks like the last option's the case, both JL and Robin existing but not interacting for quite some time. RIP Superman/Robin friendship.


I always read about Superman/Robin Friendship in this thread, but I have never seen them interacting much.

I know Nightwing identity is related to Superman. However, I don't think there was a lot of interactions between Dick and Clark at that time either. 

So, when they were close?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I always read about Superman/Robin Friendship in this thread, but I have never seen them interacting much.
> 
> I know Nightwing identity is related to Superman. However, I don't think there was a lot of interactions between Dick and Clark at that time either. 
> 
> So, when they were close?


Superman, Batman and Robin had years of adventures before there was a Justice League to speak off. Robin was at the founding of the Justice League originally. Nightwing has this status of being the one hero everyone in the DC community trusts exactly because he has been in the life as long as he has. New 52 messed with that quite a bit but I feel we are even further away from that status now.

----------


## Konja7

> Superman, Batman and Robin had years of adventures before there was a Justice League to speak off. Robin was at the founding of the Justice League originally. Nightwing has this status of being the one hero everyone in the DC community trusts exactly because he has been in the life as long as he has. New 52 messed with that quite a bit but I feel we are even further away from that status now.


I guess that interactions happened before the 80s, right? I haven't looking much about comics before that time. 

I think Dick was losing that status even before New52 (although he recovered it during his Batman time), because his interactions with other characters were reduced a lot.

Of maybe I just don't read enough comics.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I guess that interactions happened before the 80s, right? I haven't looking much about comics before that time. 
> 
> I think Dick was losing that status even before New52 (although he recovered it during his Batman time), because his interactions with other characters were reduced a lot.
> 
> Of maybe I just don't read enough comics.


Before the 60s. The original World's Finest, while mainly about Superman and Batman also include Dick.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> I guess that interactions happened before the 80s, right? I haven't looking much about comics before that time. 
> 
> I think Dick was losing that status even before New52 (although he recovered it during his Batman time), because his interactions with other characters were reduced a lot.
> 
> Of maybe I just don't read enough comics.


Superman, Batman and Robin were always some of the earliest active heroes of the modern era. How much current Nightwing interacts with other characters may fluctuate but the idea that Superman and the rest of the Justice League had been introduced to most other heroes over a period of years before Robin met someone other then Batman, that's a new low.

----------


## Claude

Yeah, if it were up to me? I'd bring back the idea that - at least in the league's early days - "Batman And Robin" were an inseparable team. Batman wouldn't appear in Metropolis one week, and Coast City the next, it isn't Batman you'd call for help in solving a crime, if you're walking down an alley in Gotham City and someone pulls a gun on you it isn't Batman who'll appear... It's _Batman and Robin._

That's sort of the point.

----------


## Badou

> Looks like the last option's the case, both JL and Robin existing but not interacting for quite some time. RIP Superman/Robin friendship.


That kind of sucks. I guess DC wants to try and lessen or discount his time as Robin before he was 16 still. It is just weird if he has been Robin for 4-8 years but he doesn't meet any of the JL until he is an older teen. I really enjoy the idea of Dick being Robin from a young age, like 10 years old, because it really puts emphasis on his title as Boy Wonder and how he basically grew up in the hero world. If he is already a teen before anything happens then that title is meaningless. 

The Superman stuff also is disappointing, but they have been lessening their relationship for a long time. So at least I'm used to it by now, lol.

----------


## Ascended

> I think they do care about iconic costumes, but they just don't care about Dick's Robin costume specifically. You see how much effort they are putting into making Superman's costume look more "iconic" with giving him his shorts back, and even giving Wonder Woman her classic golden elements instead of the silver her New 52 one had, but Dick is still stuck with his same garbage costume. It's frustrating to me.


Well that's the thing, we only see Dick's Robin costume in the occasional flashback whereas Clark and Diana are wearing their classic suits (or a close variation) right now. 

What bothers me far more than Dick's generic new Robin suit is the design hiccups on his current Nightwing suit.




> I always read about Superman/Robin Friendship in this thread, but I have never seen them interacting much.
> 
> I know Nightwing identity is related to Superman. However, I don't think there was a lot of interactions between Dick and Clark at that time either. 
> 
> So, when they were close?


Back in the 40's and 50's, maybe into the 60's (not sure on that) Bruce and Clark would have a lot of adventures together in World's Finest, and Dick would tag along, often with Jimmy Olsen. There were also stories where just Clark and Dick hung out. 

That relationship maintained through reboots and Crisis events, though you didn't see Clark and Dick hang out nearly as much after the 70's or so. But you'd have issues where one would guest star in the other's book and they'd still be close. See if you can find a two issue guest spot during Dixon's early Nightwing run and a early issue of Seeley's. There's other examples in the modern era where Clark and Dick hang out but those are two of my favorites. There's also a really good issue of Superman or Action (I forget) where he and Dick are on a stake-out but I can't remember who wrote or drew it.

----------


## TheCape

> Well that's the thing, we only see Dick's Robin costume in the occasional flashback whereas Clark and Diana are wearing their classic suits (or a close variation) right now. 
> 
> What bothers me far more than Dick's generic new Robin suit is the design hiccups on his current Nightwing suit.
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the 40's and 50's, maybe into the 60's (not sure on that) Bruce and Clark would have a lot of adventures together in World's Finest, and Dick would tag along, often with Jimmy Olsen. There were also stories where just Clark and Dick hung out. 
> 
> That relationship maintained through reboots and Crisis events, though you didn't see Clark and Dick hang out nearly as much after the 70's or so. But you'd have issues where one would guest star in the other's book and they'd still be close. See if you can find a two issue guest spot during Dixon's early Nightwing run and a early issue of Seeley's. There's other examples in the modern era where Clark and Dick hang out but those are two of my favorites. There's also a really good issue of Superman or Action (I forget) where he and Dick are on a stake-out but I can't remember who wrote or drew it.


The Nightwing guest appearance was in Action Comics, i remember it because it was written by Joe Kelly, but i don't remember the specific issue.

----------


## Wingin' It

Back in the day, Clark was pretty much like Dick's Uncle. Like others have mentioned, he, Bruce and Clark spent quite a bit of time together, and honoring Superman was one of the primary reasons he chose the "Nightwing" moniker.

----------


## Drako

Hell Yes!

----------


## Robanker

... Proper Nightwing content? 2020 finally gives something back! Really excited to play as Dick retaking Gotham.

----------


## Digifiend



----------


## cc008

I can NOT wait to get my hands on this game. Anything Batfamily gets me pumped, but this is going to be so cool.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Trailer looked amazing. Is Tim teleporting?

----------


## TheCape

> Trailer looked amazing. Is Tim teleporting?


He is, is his speciall skill.

----------


## Digifiend

Heh, I guess he fought Dodge at some point and took his tech! Dodge was a character from his solo book who stole and then used teleporting tech.

----------


## TheCape

> Heh, I guess he fought Dodge at some point and took his tech! Dodge was a character from his solo book who stole and then used teleporting tech.


According to the gameplay video, he hacked the watchtower and is using the teleporter, but it only works in short ranges. Still, i like your idea better.

----------


## Godlike13

I always like those games combat style for Nightwing. Can’t wait.

----------


## Frontier

Christopher Sean is voicing Nigtwing.

----------


## Robanker

> Christopher Sean is voicing Nigtwing.


Listened to an interview of his to get an idea for his voice and he sounds perfectly fine as Nightwing. Loren Lester will always be Dick Grayson to me, but much like getting a new Batman voice, I gotta put that aside a minute, but hopefully they give him a lot of room to really act.

----------


## Frontier

> Listened to an interview of his to get an idea for his voice and he sounds perfectly fine as Nightwing. Loren Lester will always be Dick Grayson to me, but much like getting a new Batman voice, I gotta put that aside a minute, but hopefully they give him a lot of room to really act.


I'm only wary because the voice acting in the gameplay...left a little to be desired.

----------


## Drako

> I'm only wary because the voice acting in the gameplay...left a little to be desired.


I didn't mind the gameplay. Even though the free flow combat of the arkham series is awesome, i think they want to distance themselves from Rocksteady.

----------


## cc008

The gameplay is also pre alpha footage and probably nowhere near as polished as it will be upon release. It'll look much nicer.

----------


## Ascended

> The gameplay is also pre alpha footage and probably nowhere near as polished as it will be upon release. It'll look much nicer.


I'm sure it will. 

I mean it kind of has to if it wants to be taken seriously. Look at Final Fantasy 7, that thing is a work of art. The graphics here look decent, but being "decent" isn't going to cut it for a game as high profile as a Bat game.

But for a pre-alpha game trailer? That looks pretty damn solid. The game play looks good. I'll be keeping my eye on this one.

----------


## cc008

For sure! I mean the Arkham games were gorgeous. That's a standard in and of itself that this game needs to meet... even if it *is* trying to separate from Rocksteady (I don't know if that's the actual goal, just mindless speculation). But yeah for very raw, early footage, this looks great.

----------


## Wingin' It

I like what I've seen of Chris Sean so far from the interviews I watched. Also, yeah I think there's going to be a lot of improvements from the initial footage to the final product. It's a shame that so many people are ragging on this game for (seemingly) not having Batman. It's clear that this is something the fans have been desiring for a long time, to play as their favorite Bat-ally.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I like what I've seen of Chris Sean so far from the interviews I watched. Also, yeah I think there's going to be a lot of improvements from the initial footage to the final product. It's a shame that so many people are ragging on this game for (seemingly) not having Batman. It's clear that this is something the fans have been desiring for a long time, to play as their favorite Bat-ally.


On Twitter? coz on Youtube it's been positive

----------


## Badou

It's obvious that Batman is either captured by the Owls and is probably Owlman or a Talon in the game. I'd be shocked if he is actually dead.

----------


## Frontier

> It's obvious that Batman is either captured by the Owls and is probably Owlman or a Talon in the game. I'd be shocked if he is actually dead.


Yeah, they're treating him like Captain America in the Avengers game.

----------


## Ascended

> It's obvious that Batman is either captured by the Owls and is probably Owlman or a Talon in the game. I'd be shocked if he is actually dead.





> Yeah, they're treating him like Captain America in the Avengers game.


Sshhh! You'll spoil what is clearly a very big surprise that nobody will see coming!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Robanker

> Sshhh! You'll spoil what is clearly a very big surprise that nobody will see coming!


Hey man, they also said Superman was a key player in Batman v Superman: Dawn of 42 Lines.

But yeah, it's not called Gotham Knights. It's Batman: Gotham Knights. It's a new continuity. He's going to be in there somewhere. Hopefully he's not combat-ready and the Bat Family have to resolve the entire plot on their own. It'd be a really bad look for all four of them to not be able to measure up. 

But then Bad Blood kind of did that with Dick and Damian, so who knows?

----------


## Claude

Good news, that game - even if its not very good, that's four characters who could really benefit from that kind of boost in the more mainstream eye.

One thing I'm not sure on, and this might be my lack of knowledge of This Type Of Game, but is the idea that the single player campaign can be run through as any of the four characters, switching at any time? Or that there's a plot which involves playing as different characters in different areas?

Both could be fun, but the latter sort of puts a capstone on the level of specific character development you can get.

----------


## Claude

https://twitter.com/thealexrossart/s...222976/photo/1

So somethings definately coming at the next Fandome session.

----------


## Pohzee

An focus in Justice League, a return in the comics, prominent focus in a video game, and star of 2 TV shows. Things have definitely been worse for Dick, as we have been reminded of very recently. Things are looking up!

----------


## Ascended

Oh don't get me wrong, a game where you get to play as the fam is absolutely awesome, even if Bruce is the guy who comes back at the end and steals the spotlight in the final bit. Personally I think the final boss will be Talon-ized Batman and you'll save him, but be playing as the fam through the whole thing.

Maybe after you complete the campaign you can unlock Batman then for replay value or something, who knows? But it's a damn good thing either way.

That Ross cover is looking sweet too. Seems like we have another Titans reunion title on the way.




> An focus in Justice League, a return in the comics, prominent focus in a video game, and star of 2 TV shows. Things have definitely been worse for Dick, as we have been reminded of very recently. Things are looking up!


Yeah, seems like we actually have reason to be a little happy, maybe even a little hopeful! Seems like all that is left is to get a good creative team on the solo book and Dick will actually appear as if DC.....respects....him?!?!

And not to #humblebrags here, but I've been saying we'd see a change in the tide like this; Dick's too popular and successful to be abused forever.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> Hey man, they also said Superman was a key player in Batman v Superman: Dawn of 42 Lines.
> 
> But yeah, it's not called Gotham Knights. It's Batman: Gotham Knights. It's a new continuity. He's going to be in there somewhere. Hopefully he's not combat-ready and the Bat Family have to resolve the entire plot on their own. It'd be a really bad look for all four of them to not be able to measure up. 
> 
> But then Bad Blood kind of did that with Dick and Damian, so who knows?


Is it called Batman: Gotham Knights? I know that was the rumor but it seems like the title is just "Gotham Knights." 

I'm kind of expecting a playable Batman but I'm not sure how it would work since it seems like it would be difficult to implement him into the core game mechanics even if it's later in the game and would work against what they're promoting with the story thematically. 



> Good news, that game - even if its not very good, that's four characters who could really benefit from that kind of boost in the more mainstream eye.
> 
> One thing I'm not sure on, and this might be my lack of knowledge of This Type Of Game, but is the idea that the single player campaign can be run through as any of the four characters, switching at any time? Or that there's a plot which involves playing as different characters in different areas?
> 
> Both could be fun, but the latter sort of puts a capstone on the level of specific character development you can get.


There's a single player, so I'm not sure if the game forces you to switch characters at certain points or if the devs are just expecting players will want to switch between the different members while playing.

----------


## yohyoi

I am hope. Bringer of awesomeness.

Dick looking like a daddy in the game. Mwah! He is an airbender and is more acrobatic than Batman in the past games. Mwah! I can play him the whole game and kick his great grandfather's ass (and Batman's ass hopefully). Mwah!

Reeves is another universe with the goal of expanding the mythos unlike Nolan. Year Two Batman means the next movie is Year Three or the year the Dynamic Duo is formed. HBO Gotham is Year One tells me Reeves has a long term plan. His favorite Batman stories are The Long Halloween and Dark Victory says alot. The movie is heavily inspired by The Long Holloween, the mobs and the genesis of Gotham's era of supervilllains. I love it. I really love it.

Titans is still focused on Nightwing. Bring on more Gotham. But those poor Titans comic fans. I can't wait for the LIVE-ACTION DICK AND BABS SINCE THE 60'S. I can't also wait for Under the Red Hood but Batman is replaced by Nightwing. It would be fun.

NOT TO MENTION WE STILL GOT MORE UPCOMING SEPTEMBER. Comics, Young Justice, etc. I NEED THAT SNYDER DICK GRAYSON STORY DC!!!

Edit: I don't even care if Batman becames playable because I love Batman. I just like Nightwing a lot more. It's frickin' open world Nightwing game. I have been dreaming about it for two decades.

----------


## Drako

> Is it called Batman: Gotham Knights? I know that was the rumor but it seems like the title is just "Gotham Knights."


It's called just Gotham Knights, no Batman in the title.

https://www.gothamknightsgame.com/

----------


## Drako

Justice League #57 Doom Metal variant cover by Philip Tan

----------


## Wingin' It

> https://twitter.com/thealexrossart/s...222976/photo/1
> 
> So somethings definately coming at the next Fandome session.


I am so psyched! Love Alex Ross' stuff.

----------


## Korath

> Justice League #57 Doom Metal variant cover by Philip Tan


Long hair always seems to suit Dick the most, don't you think ?

----------


## Wingin' It

Batman Beyond #46 Preview, featuring Dick, Damian, Terry, and Elainna Grayson.

https://www.cbr.com/batman-beyond-46/

----------


## Robanker

> Is it called Batman: Gotham Knights? I know that was the rumor but it seems like the title is just "Gotham Knights." 
> 
> I'm kind of expecting a playable Batman but I'm not sure how it would work since it seems like it would be difficult to implement him into the core game mechanics even if it's later in the game and would work against what they're promoting with the story thematically. 
> 
> There's a single player, so I'm not sure if the game forces you to switch characters at certain points or if the devs are just expecting players will want to switch between the different members while playing.





> It's called just Gotham Knights, no Batman in the title.
> 
> https://www.gothamknightsgame.com/


GLAD to be wrong!

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> https://twitter.com/thealexrossart/s...222976/photo/1
> 
> So somethings definately coming at the next Fandome session.


Is this the first time Ross has drawn the NTT line up? Usually he focuses only on the Silver Age Titans.

...Dare I hope for a _Justice_ style series based around the NTT?

----------


## Wingin' It

> Is this the first time Ross has drawn the NTT line up? Usually he focuses only on the Silver Age Titans.
> 
> ...Dare I hope for a _Justice_ style series based around the NTT?


I would love that, especially if DC is placing more focus on out of continuity graphic novels. 

I've been a sucker for Ross' stuff since Kingdom Come.

----------


## Robanker

> Is this the first time Ross has drawn the NTT line up? Usually he focuses only on the Silver Age Titans.
> 
> ...Dare I hope for a _Justice_ style series based around the NTT?


Don't put ideas in my head that we can't have.

So far I think he's teased NTT and GL, both of which are DC series currently in production (Titans, the HBO MAX GL show) so maybe he's just doing promo and hyping up the TV arm of Fandome next month. I wanna be wrong. I need that NTT in my veins post haste.

----------


## Lazurus33

EgJVLoGWsAECdr_.jpg

https://twitter.com/GlebMelnikov8/st...93353065287684

----------


## Ascended

> Don't put ideas in my head that we can't have.
> 
> So far I think he's teased NTT and GL, both of which are DC series currently in production (Titans, the HBO MAX GL show) so maybe he's just doing promo and hyping up the TV arm of Fandome next month. I wanna be wrong. I need that NTT in my veins post haste.


I feel like if it was a promo for the Titans tv show, they'd be using the tv cast and costumes.

----------


## Drako

Another variant from Issue #57.

----------


## Robanker

> I feel like if it was a promo for the Titans tv show, they'd be using the tv cast and costumes.


Good luck getting Alex to draw that. He barely stomached drawing Kyle Raynor once.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AmiMizuno

So I learned why Dick is called a Cheater because it seems like Raven(80s) and Donna who cheated on Star with. And Babs of course.



I mean Star was already married wasn't she?

----------


## Drako

He never had anything with Donna.
Raven is an empath and manipulated him emotionally because thought she had feelings for Nightwing. You should not believe everything you see online without the context.

----------


## Drako

> I mean Star was already married wasn't she?


Also, Dick and Starfire never actually got married.

----------


## Robanker

> Also, Dick and Starfire never actually got married.


Yes, though to be fair, he slept with Barbara before the wedding to Starfire in Nightwing Annual #2. Scummy thing to do. Dick ain't perfect.

----------


## Drako

> Yes, though to be fair, he slept with Barbara before the wedding to Starfire in Nightwing Annual #2. Scummy thing to do. Dick ain't perfect.


And can i acknowledge that one, even though i hate that Annual. 
I never thought of him as a perfect individual, i'm just providing context to the page that was brought here to make him look even worse.

----------


## Konja7

> Yes, though to be fair, he slept with Barbara before the wedding to Starfire in Nightwing Annual #2. Scummy thing to do. Dick ain't perfect.


Honestly, I would rather ignore that event, since that was the time when writers really want to dismiss the relationship between Dick and Kory (they want to imply the relationship was mainly lust from Dick side). 

After so many retcons, I would just assume that event was retconned too and never happened.

----------


## Wingin' It

> So I learned why Dick is called a Cheater because it seems like Raven(80s) and Donna who cheated on Star with. And Babs of course.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean Star was already married wasn't she?


This was a dream, Dick was being influenced by Raven who was projecting her love for Dick onto him. He told Kory what was going on, she and Raven had a heart-to-heart where she realized that her feelings might not be romantic in nature. No harm no foul.

As for Donna, their relationship was extremely close but never romantic. They were more like siblings, really, and Donna was also best friends with Kory. Not sure who told you otherwise.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Yes, though to be fair, he slept with Barbara before the wedding to Starfire in Nightwing Annual #2. Scummy thing to do. Dick ain't perfect.


Dick ain't perfect but him being a cheater was so out of left field it still baffles me why they'd write it. It was a retcon that took place long after Dick and Kory's relationship had ended in canon, done to portray Babs as the only woman Dick ever loved. Up until that point, it was understood that Dick's relationship with Babs was puppy love/one-sided crush-territory until a while after she became Oracle. 

Kinda annoying, because Dick absolutely loved Kory while they were together and wanted to spend his life with her.

----------


## Konja7

> Dick ain't perfect but him being a cheater was so out of left field it still baffles me why they'd write it. It was a retcon that took place long after Dick and Kory's relationship had ended in canon, done to portray Babs as the only woman Dick ever loved. Up until that point, it was understood that Dick's relationship with Babs was puppy love/one-sided crush-territory until a while after she became Oracle. 
> 
> Kinda annoying, because Dick absolutely loved Kory while they were together and wanted to spend his life with her.


They really want to dismiss Dick feelings toward Kory at that time. 

In Gotham Kinghts (2000-2006) #43, Batman tells Barbara that Dick still love her and that "his thing with the alien won't last". It was a story set in the past when Jason was Robin.

----------


## AmiMizuno

We have Titans Tomorrow where he would have a happy marriage with Kory. I hope if DC does a Kory/Dick story it's never this messy

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Also, Dick and Starfire never actually got married.


No I was speaking of Star's other marriages. Also I think  Flash vol 2. #81-83 it's stated that they were married(Kory/Dick). 

[/QUOTE]

What issue is this from?

----------


## Drako

> No I was speaking of Star's other marriages. Also I think  Flash vol 2. #81-83 it's stated that they were married(Kory/Dick).


They never got married. An evil Raven stopped the ceremony.
Flash v2 was Wrong, you can see this here:

https://www.cbr.com/titans-flash-nig...e-no-marriage/




> What issue is this from?


New Teen Titans Vol 2 #37

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea the person that I was talking to kept saying that he treated Star badly and in the 2000 run he hit on Rachel and Kory at the same time. I mean it's never been a thing with Rachel(Raven) and thing. I guess people do have issues with Dick due to certain things that come off wrongly. Especially with the Babs situation.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Yea the person that I was talking to kept saying that he treated Star badly and in the 2000 run he hit on Rachel and Kory at the same time. I mean it's never been a thing with Rachel(Raven) and thing. I guess people do have issues with Dick due to certain things that come off wrongly. Especially with the Babs situation.


Weird. But no, Dick, under his own mental faculties, has never been interested in Raven as more than a friend.

----------


## Drako

From the Gotham Knights game.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> From the Gotham Knights game.


This looks cool. You guys think Nightwing comics can be better after Dan plans for Nightwing is done ?

----------


## L.H.

> Yea the person that I was talking to kept saying that he treated Star badly and in the 2000 run he hit on Rachel and Kory at the same time. I mean it's never been a thing with Rachel(Raven) and thing. I guess people do have issues with Dick due to certain things that come off wrongly. Especially with the Babs situation.


He treated Star badly? Is he serious? Kory had a state wedding, and Dick was the one suffering. Then, he was raped and the only thing Kory kept telling him was it was his fault. That's what ruined their relationship, imho. She was so selfish and cruel, I started hating her. 
Next time, remember this person that Kory blamed Dick for having been raped. I think no relationship can survive after such a thing.

----------


## Drako

> He treated Star badly? Is he serious? Kory had a state wedding, and Dick was the one suffering. Then, he was raped and the only thing Kory kept telling him was it was his fault. That's what ruined their relationship, imho. She was so selfish and cruel, I started hating her. 
> Next time, remember this person that Kory blamed Dick for having been raped. I think no relationship can survive after such a thing.


Here's Kory victim-blaming him.

----------


## Konja7

> He treated Star badly? Is he serious? Kory had a state wedding, and Dick was the one suffering. Then, he was raped and the only thing Kory kept telling him was it was his fault. That's what ruined their relationship, imho. She was so selfish and cruel, I started hating her. 
> Next time, remember this person that Kory blamed Dick for having been raped. I think no relationship can survive after such a thing.


The problem here is that almost nobody in and out universe take seriously enough Dick's rape by Mirage (definitely, not the writer). 

It is difficult to blame Kory when the writer doesn't even see the real problem.

Something similar happened with Dick's rape by Tarantula. I think Batman and Barbara were slut-shaming him too.

----------


## Ascended

I forgot about the Mirage thing. Wow, that's twice Dick was raped. Poor bastard.

As for the Dick & Kori debate....there are no good answers here. After the wedding plans began to fall apart nobody there comes out looking good. We can debate whether one is more to blame than the other but the writer (were we still with Wolfman then, or had he taken his break at that point? I forget) dropped the ball and as far as I'm concerned, derailed both characters' trajectories. 

They're both victims, not of events in the comics but of the beginning of the Titans' collapse.

----------


## TheCape

> I forgot about the Mirage thing. Wow, that's twice Dick was raped. Poor bastard.
> 
> As for the Dick & Kori debate....there are no good answers here. After the wedding plans began to fall apart nobody there comes out looking good. We can debate whether one is more to blame than the other but the writer (were we still with Wolfman then, or had he taken his break at that point? I forget) dropped the ball and as far as I'm concerned, derailed both characters' trajectories. 
> 
> They're both victims, not of events in the comics but of the beginning of the Titans' collapse.


Yeah Wolfman was still writting at the time, the whole 130 issues, it was a mercy when it was over.

----------


## yohyoi

I can't see Nightwing ending up with anyone. He doesn't have that one true love like Batman and Superman. Even the popular Babs and Kori ships are ages ago in comics. DC just passes Nightwing from girl to girl. Batman Beyond didn't even care to tell who was his wife. I'm quite cold anyway to any Nightwing shipping. People hate him for being a "slut". But I know some good cool guys like him and Nightwing is normally the one who suffers more in the relationships. The girls are not thrown in the refrigerator, which cannot be said the same to Kyle Rayner, Spider-man or Daredevil. And the girls tend to be at the same level as Nightwing or just using him (Lmao).

----------


## Frontier

> They really want to dismiss Dick feelings toward Kory at that time. 
> 
> In Gotham Kinghts (2000-2006) #43, Batman tells Barbara that Dick still love her and that "his thing with the alien won't last". It was a story set in the past when Jason was Robin.


I don't know what's more noticeable, Bruce playing a DickxBabs shipper or being so dismissive of Kori. What, were the Titans also just a phase?

----------


## yohyoi

People forgot about the woman who had sex with Dick when he was a minor. That is rape. Double standards? Smh right now.

----------


## TheCape

> People forgot about the woman who had sex with Dick when he was a minor. That is rape. Double standards? Smh right now.


This is the first time i ever heard of that. Also superhero comics don't have a good trackrecord in dealing with male victims of sexual assault.

----------


## yohyoi

> This is the first time i ever heard of that. Also superhero comics don't have a good trackrecord in dealing with male victims of sexual assault.


Liu. She took Dick's virginity and used him to access WayneCorp. Basically, Wolfman used her to explain why Dick has no stable relationship, etc.

----------


## Frontier

> Liu. She took Dick's virginity and used him to access WayneCorp. Basically, Wolfman used her to explain why Dick has no stable relationship, etc.


I guess that would do it to a guy...

I still prefer Kori being his first, personally. With Babs maybe being his first kiss.

----------


## Drako

> Liu. She took Dick's virginity and used him to access WayneCorp. Basically, Wolfman used her to explain why Dick has no stable relationship, etc.


Yeah, that story isn't very good. It looked like Marv didn't care and basically used the Nightwing title as a advertising to his new Vigilante series.




> I guess that would do it to a guy...
> 
> I still prefer Kori being his first, personally. With Babs maybe being his first kiss.


Bette Kane is his first kiss, if i recall correctly.

----------


## Frontier

> Bette Kane is his first kiss, if i recall correctly.


Is she? I know her Bat-Girl was meant to be a girlfriend-type for Robin like Batowman was for Batman, but Bette's affection for Dick in later comics always seemed completely like a one-sided crush.

----------


## Drako

> Is she? I know her Bat-Girl was meant to be a girlfriend-type for Robin like Batowman was for Batman, but Bette's affection for Dick in later comics always seemed completely like a one-sided crush.


It was one-sided at first and she kissed him a lot against his will.



http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2006/03...h-batgirl.html

----------


## Restingvoice

I just found out Lost Carnival has a free digital preview issue
a805a01df0d74500fdbb68c3e3ac1fca._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

----------


## yohyoi

Just wait for Titans season 3. Dawn and Dick shipping angered a lot of people even if there was no real relationship. Imagine if they do Babs in a Titans show instead of Kori. The amount of salt will reach Arrow season 4. Young Justice and DCAMU did it right. Young Justice focused on Babs with no Kori in sight. DCAMU focused on Kori with Babs only doing three second cameos. No ship war.

Or DC could risk it and try to create Dick's own Catwoman. But it will anger everyone so they don't do it. DC's play has been letting both side play it out without committing any side winning the war.

----------


## Konja7

> I guess that would do it to a guy...
> 
> I still prefer Kori being his first, personally. With Babs maybe being his first kiss.


If I'm not mistaken, it was mentioned Kori was the first in that Nightwin annual (where he cheats her with Barbara).

----------


## Drako

> Or DC could risk it and try to create Dick's own Catwoman. But it will anger everyone so they don't do it. DC's play has been letting both side play it out without committing any side winning the war.


Shawn Tsang was basically his Catwoman and people hated, even in this forum.

Some really lost their mind when she thought she was pregnant.

----------


## TheCape

Meh, everyone knows that Dick's true love is justice  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Konja7

> I just found out Lost Carnival has a free digital preview issue
> a805a01df0d74500fdbb68c3e3ac1fca._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg


What's your opinion about Lost Carnival?

----------


## dietrich

> Meh, everyone knows that Dick's true love is justice .


Justice! That fickle B&*ch! She's supposed to be saving herself for Batman!   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

> Justice! That fickle B&*ch! She's supposed to be saving herself for Batman!


Fickle?!, Batman was the one that decided to marry the woman in the catsuit, Justice owns him nothing after he broke his oath  :Big Grin:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I guess it's best if Dc reminds single. I mean it would be a good idea if they did do a storyline dealing with his rape. I mean Invincible does deal with Marcus's rape. So it would be a good idea for Dick. I mean it's not bad for them to revisit Kori or Babs. Has Diana has gone back to Steve. For a long time, she didn't have a love interest.  But right now it's best not to give him anyone

----------


## Badou

> I just found out Lost Carnival has a free digital preview issue
> a805a01df0d74500fdbb68c3e3ac1fca._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg


You know, it is a little strange to me they would make a OGN about him when he is younger, but instead of setting it when he was Robin, which you think would allow for a lot more story potential, they set it while he was still in the circus. I wonder why they didn't just give him a Robin OGN.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Boy has been raped a lot and they sweep it under the rug. It would maybe be a good idea to explore that. I hope Dick can actually be happy. Dc has crapped on him so much when they put him in relationships

----------


## Pohzee

> You know, it is a little strange to me they would make a OGN about him when he is younger, but instead of setting it when he was Robin, which you think would allow for a lot more story potential, they set it while he was still in the circus. I wonder why they didn't just give him a Robin OGN.


I think Hudson U would be a great setting for a YA Robin novel. But I hope Garcia and Piccolo gets around to a Robin graphic novel eventually.

----------


## TheCape

> I think Hudson U would be a great setting for a YA Robin novel. But I hope Garcia and Piccolo gets around to a Robin graphic novel eventually.


If he gets that it would truly be a dream come true for the guy. With how much he loves the 2003 TT.

----------


## Lady Nightwing

Given how DC handled his family and friends reactions to him being shot in the head, I wouldn't trust DC to handle an issue like rape with any sensitivity or tact.

----------


## WonderNight

> Just wait for Titans season 3. Dawn and Dick shipping angered a lot of people even if there was no real relationship. Imagine if they do Babs in a Titans show instead of Kori. The amount of salt will reach Arrow season 4. Young Justice and DCAMU did it right. Young Justice focused on Babs with no Kori in sight. DCAMU focused on Kori with Babs only doing three second cameos. No ship war.
> 
> Or DC could risk it and try to create Dick's own Catwoman. But it will anger everyone so they don't do it. DC's play has been letting both side play it out without committing any side winning the war.


I really don't care about dick's ships right now but I'll say this. So what! So what if people are pissed, they'll be pissed no matter who dick end up with so why care about that. Just focus on what you feel is best for dick's growth and story's. Pissing off shippers is irrelevant.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I really don't care about dick's ships right now but I'll say this. So what! So what if people are pissed, they'll be pissed no matter who dick end up with so why care about that. Just focus on what you feel is best for dick's growth and story's. Pissing off shippers is irrelevant.


Babs is not good for Dick's growth and story's, nor for the Titan's that have not had a chance of an arc. Neither is Gotham for that matter...That damn show is an ongoing disappointment.

----------


## WonderNight

> Babs is not good for Dick's growth and story's, nor for the Titan's that have not had a chance of an arc. Neither is Gotham for that matter...That damn show is an ongoing disappointment.


I agree. I'm not a dickbabs fan and I would like dick to have more independence from gotham.

----------


## Ascended

> I really don't care about dick's ships right now but I'll say this. So what! So what if people are pissed, they'll be pissed no matter who dick end up with so why care about that. Just focus on what you feel is best for dick's growth and story's. Pissing off shippers is irrelevant.


This. Fans are going to freak out no matter what. Creators shouldn't be trying to appease fans anyway, just tell the best story they can in the best way they can while respecting the IP. If you respect the property and its history, most fans will come around anyway, eventually.

But I can always break down exactly why a Power Girl ship is good for the franchise from a creative and business perspective.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Konja7

> You know, it is a little strange to me they would make a OGN about him when he is younger, but instead of setting it when he was Robin, which you think would allow for a lot more story potential, they set it while he was still in the circus. I wonder why they didn't just give him a Robin OGN.


The OGNs are totally independent from continuity. They only use the characters (although even the personality es could be change sometimes). 

The writer likely want to tell a "coming of age" story with Dick Grayson where his parents were still alive. 

In this story, Dick is younger, but he is close to start College and he will likely never become Robin or Nightwing.

----------


## Drako

Bilquis Evely is drawing Nightwing and the others members of the Batfamily in a future issue of Detective Comics.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I think Hudson U would be a great setting for a YA Robin novel. But I hope Garcia and Piccolo gets around to a Robin graphic novel eventually.


I'm not sure that's happening anytime soon. The next novel is "Beast Boy Loves Raven" or something like that, so they're taking their time with all this. It's a little disappointing, since the initial announcement was that this would be a six book series, and now we see that the third one isn't even about a third Titan. I really thought we'd get one book for each iconic Titan, with a final book about the team but they're not really going the predictable route.

----------


## Konja7

> I'm not sure that's happening anytime soon. The next novel is "Beast Boy Loves Raven" or something like that, so they're taking their time with all this. It's a little disappointing, since the initial announcement was that this would be a six book series, and now we see that the third one isn't even about a third Titan. I really thought we'd get one book for each iconic Titan, with a final book about the team but they're not really going the predictable route.


Yeah. It is pretty possible they want to focus their story on Raven and Beast Boy.

If they want the Titans team in a six book series, they would likely have brought the team together in book 1 or 2.

----------


## AmiMizuno

One of the most important things about the editorial is at least trying to make the story flow or have some guidelines in writing the character. With Dick, it seems there are no guidelines. If you were to run the Batman office what guidelines for how Dick interacts with the Batfam and his own book would you put

----------


## Konja7

> One of the most important things about the editorial is at least trying to make the story flow or have some guidelines in writing the character. With Dick, it seems there are no guidelines. If you were to run the Batman office what guidelines for how Dick interacts with the Batfam and his own book would you put


There are likely some guidelines in the Batman office, but I really doubt these benefit Dick.

----------


## Pohzee

> One of the most important things about the editorial is at least trying to make the story flow or have some guidelines in writing the character. With Dick, it seems there are no guidelines. If you were to run the Batman office what guidelines for how Dick interacts with the Batfam and his own book would you put


Not just another Robin. It's not a level playing field and they aren't equals.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> There are likely some guidelines in the Batman office, but I really doubt these benefit Dick.


They would have to be taken seriously. The thing is sadly TT editorial is bad. He only has one book so it's not like he can get his own editorial for exclusive him. That would be great.

----------


## Frontier

> Shawn Tsang was basically his Catwoman and people hated, even in this forum.
> 
> Some really lost their mind when she thought she was pregnant.


I thought people liked Shawn well enough, it was just Bludhaven in general they were souring on. 



> You know, it is a little strange to me they would make a OGN about him when he is younger, but instead of setting it when he was Robin, which you think would allow for a lot more story potential, they set it while he was still in the circus. I wonder why they didn't just give him a Robin OGN.


Most of these GN's have focused on the heroes before they take up their costume identity. 



> I'm not sure that's happening anytime soon. The next novel is "Beast Boy Loves Raven" or something like that, so they're taking their time with all this. It's a little disappointing, since the initial announcement was that this would be a six book series, and now we see that the third one isn't even about a third Titan. I really thought we'd get one book for each iconic Titan, with a final book about the team but they're not really going the predictable route.


Maybe 4 and 5 are Cyborg and Starfire and then Robin rounds it up for the 6th book.

----------


## Digifiend

https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-teen-t...tume-darkness/

----------


## Restingvoice

> I thought people liked Shawn well enough, it was just Bludhaven in general they were souring on. 
> 
> Most of these GN's have focused on the heroes before they take up their costume identity. 
> 
> Maybe 4 and 5 are Cyborg and Starfire and then Robin rounds it up for the 6th book.


I don't know about here, but the pregnancy did make some people lost their minds because it's a ship sinker. As long as he doesn't have kids or get married, the two biggest ships have hope that he will finally pick one.

----------


## L.H.

I'm one of those who disliked Shawn since her first appearance but liked Seeley's Bludhaven. And I didn't lost my mind about a pregnancy that would have never happened. Probably that's something wrong with me, but, imho Shawn was no more than Bea and nothing like Selina.
Still, I don't get why every Nightwing's new writer keeps erasing his supporting cast and bring some brand new character.

Picolo is Titans fan, and he is a Dick/Kory fan too. I'm kinda sure there will be at least a book for every Titan.

----------


## Drako

> I'm one of those who disliked Shawn since her first appearance but liked Seeley's Bludhaven. And I didn't lost my mind about a pregnancy that would have never happened. Probably that's something wrong with me, but, imho Shawn was no more than Bea and nothing like Selina.
> Still, I don't get why every Nightwing's new writer keeps erasing his supporting cast and bring some brand new character.
> 
> Picolo is Titans fan, and he is a Dick/Kory fan too. I'm kinda sure there will be at least a book for every Titan.


I said that she was his catwoman only cause of her criminal past, but other than that she is doesn't have much in common with Selina.

----------


## Robanker

To be honest, Shawn felt like plate spinning and I just never really bought into her as a character the same way Silver St. Cloud didn't work for me as Bruce's love interest.

Anyway, his love life needs a rest. It's become this albatross around his neck and the shippers are turning the fandom into some stupid turf war more about who "wins" than anything in the story.

And I like both ships, for heaven's sake! But give them a rest.

----------


## Godlike13

> I'm one of those who disliked Shawn since her first appearance but liked Seeley's Bludhaven. And I didn't lost my mind about a pregnancy that would have never happened. Probably that's something wrong with me, but, imho Shawn was no more than Bea and nothing like Selina.
> Still, I don't get why every Nightwing's new writer keeps erasing his supporting cast and bring some brand new character.
> 
> Picolo is Titans fan, and he is a Dick/Kory fan too. I'm kinda sure there will be at least a book for every Titan.


Shawn was nothing like Bea. Shawn had an actual backstory, and was use to help introduced new story and challenges into the book and Bludhaven. Bea is literally just the first random chick Ric ran into. After readers started making fun of Ric for being a hobo, Lobdell tried to add experiences with the homeless to fill her out, but that was just another attempt to spin his poor writing back at readers. But 2 years in she has no real character, and her only purpose is to act as Ric's damsel in distress and give the character one thing to care about in this poorly constructed world they contained him in.

----------


## Ascended

I think if you were to make a list of qualities a viable love interest would need, Shawn would check off a lot of those boxes. But the execution just didn't nail it. Too rushed maybe. Maybe too many of the boxes were checked and it felt too artificial, or maybe I'm just a cynical old bastard and never expected the character to last beyond the run.

----------


## Frontier

> I think if you were to make a list of qualities a viable love interest would need, Shawn would check off a lot of those boxes. But the execution just didn't nail it. Too rushed maybe. Maybe too many of the boxes were checked and it felt too artificial, or maybe I'm just a cynical old bastard and never expected the character to last beyond the run.


I think Seeley addressed the "rushed" complaints in that he felt with modern comics he kind of had to quicken things up to make it as significant as it needed to be.



> To be honest, Shawn felt like plate spinning and I just never really bought into her as a character the same way Silver St. Cloud didn't work for me as Bruce's love interest.
> 
> Anyway, his love life needs a rest. It's become this albatross around his neck and the shippers are turning the fandom into some stupid turf war more about who "wins" than anything in the story.
> 
> And I like both ships, for heaven's sake! But give them a rest.


I think Silver St. Cloud is pretty underrated, honestly.

----------


## Restingvoice

Definitely rushed. I read Seeley's answer, but I still think it's not a good idea, especially with someone in the middle of ship war like Dick.

----------


## Robanker

> I think if you were to make a list of qualities a viable love interest would need, Shawn would check off a lot of those boxes. But the execution just didn't nail it. Too rushed maybe. Maybe too many of the boxes were checked and it felt too artificial, or maybe I'm just a cynical old bastard and never expected the character to last beyond the run.


I hate to say it, but there's also longevity. Dick's an 80 year-old character. Introducing a new character and 30 issues later she's The One^TM just isn't going to work no matter how well-executed because most fans have been sitting with their preferred ship for, what, 5+ years? To win them over, we gotta see that new character not only have good chemistry but prove themselves in their own right. If he didn't already have a strong ship, it wouldn't be hard for her to catch on, but she did.

Linda Park didn't have a lot of competition for Wally so that was an easier path. He had, who, Magenta? Not exactly Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson.

I don't think there's a machete strong enough to cut through the DickBabs and DickFire marsh, so Shawn needed to really sell people over a long period of time before most fans felt she was worthy, so to speak. Much like Val-Zod and PG, it happened way too soon with a relative nobody who had yet to establish themselves as a strong character in their own right and just wasn't meant to be. As such, Shawn was just marked as the run's love-interest of the year to be forgotten when a new team takes over.

See: every Batman love interest that isn't Catwoman, Talia or perhaps Diana. 

Dick in particular has such a raging shipping war, however, I don't think Shawn ever really had a chance.

----------


## WonderNight

> I hate to say it, but there's also longevity. Dick's an 80 year-old character. Introducing a new character and 30 issues later she's The One^TM just isn't going to work no matter how well-executed because most fans have been sitting with their preferred ship for, what, 5+ years? To win them over, we gotta see that new character not only have good chemistry but prove themselves in their own right. If he didn't already have a strong ship, it wouldn't be hard for her to catch on, but she did.
> 
> Linda Park didn't have a lot of competition for Wally so that was an easier path. He had, who, Magenta? Not exactly Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson.
> 
> I don't think there's a machete strong enough to cut through the DickBabs and DickFire marsh, so Shawn needed to really sell people over a long period of time before most fans felt she was worthy, so to speak. Much like Val-Zod and PG, it happened way too soon with a relative nobody who had yet to establish themselves as a strong character in their own right and just wasn't meant to be. As such, Shawn was just marked as the run's love-interest of the year to be forgotten when a new team takes over.
> 
> See: every Batman love interest that isn't Catwoman, Talia or perhaps Diana. 
> 
> Dick in particular has such a raging shipping war, however, I don't think Shawn ever really had a chance.


True but I think you forgot one more detail. Shawn as a new character didn't have her own fanbase to back her. If dick's new love interest already has a some what strong fanbase of her own she would stand alot better chance.

----------


## Restingvoice

The baby is in Justice League Jason Fabok variant

tumblr_2ede29d77704733d409a4c1c06857e3f_a9b80a6c_540.jpg

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> The baby is in Justice League Jason Fabok variant
> 
> tumblr_2ede29d77704733d409a4c1c06857e3f_a9b80a6c_540.jpg


What issue is this for? This is the first I'm seeing it

----------


## Pohzee

I think Fabok made that to decorate his son's bedroom.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What issue is this for? This is the first I'm seeing it


the poster didn't mention. I assume it's one of the Doom Metal




> I think Fabok made that to decorate his son's bedroom.


oh

----------


## Ascended

> I hate to say it, but there's also longevity. 
> 
> I don't think there's a machete strong enough to cut through the DickBabs and DickFire marsh, so Shawn needed to really sell people over a long period of time before most fans felt she was worthy, so to speak. 
> 
> Dick in particular has such a raging shipping war, however, I don't think Shawn ever really had a chance.


That's the thing, we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nightwing fandom is pretty passionately split along the Babs/Kori divide, and Babs will never work as a love interest as long as DC is pursuing her as a solo character (including her co-leading the BoP), and Kori will never work as long as DC is intent on keeping Dick more connected to Gotham than Titans Tower. 

If DC decided to seriously go with either of those two, the other half of the fandom would revolt and are damn unlikely to embrace the "other side" winning. If DC tries to introduce someone new, it has to be spun out over the long term. It has to be built slowly, so the fans *want* to see a relationship develop and are actively yelling about how long it's taking DC to pull the trigger. But for that to happen, you need people at DC who are interested and capable of that long-term investment, as well as a love interest who is worth rooting for.

----------


## Restingvoice

What's the first thing you don't like happened to Dick and how'd you do it?

----------


## AmiMizuno

He lost his memory for so long. With the number of people in DC this issue would be solved. Diana's lasso can fix any broken mind. Not enough time with Clark. I mean he is after all why Dick got his Nightwing name 




> That's the thing, we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nightwing fandom is pretty passionately split along the Babs/Kori divide, and Babs will never work as a love interest as long as DC is pursuing her as a solo character (including her co-leading the BoP), and Kori will never work as long as DC is intent on keeping Dick more connected to Gotham than Titans Tower. 
> 
> If DC decided to seriously go with either of those two, the other half of the fandom would revolt and are damn unlikely to embrace the "other side" winning. If DC tries to introduce someone new, it has to be spun out over the long term. It has to be built slowly, so the fans *want* to see a relationship develop and are actively yelling about how long it's taking DC to pull the trigger. But for that to happen, you need people at DC who are interested and capable of that long-term investment, as well as a love interest who is worth rooting for.




Why not both with Gotham and Titans. He is also well known for being in the Titans. So it's not like he can't be in the T-tower. When it comes to Babs or Kori. I think like they did with elsewhere stories work. We have him married to Kori in a few. So that solves it. They would never have him settle. Despite Starfire being his first love interest(in terms of with teammates). I mean Babs was older than him first. I mean that was one thing I was hoping for another difference he actually is in a lasting relationship, unlike Bruce and Catwoman. The best way why not being in another exes.However, you can please everyone so he can't be in a relationship at all it seems. I mean it's no difference from Selina orTalia. Why can't they pick one until the next reboot?

----------


## Ascended

> Why not both with Gotham and Titans.


For the same reason Bruce doesn't have Clark and Barry fix Gotham. Dick and Bruce might be part of teams in the wider DCU, but they're Bats first and foremost, which means their interactions with the supernatural and superhuman are largely limited to those team books (discounting the occasional low/mid-tier meta like Blockbuster or Croc) and their solo stuff is largely non-powered, street level vigilante adventures.

For Dick and Kori to be together, DC would have to acknowledge the Titans as something more than just the team Dick is sometimes a part of; they'd have to admit that the Titans side of Dick's history is a actual part of his personal life that matters to him, and not just a side gig.

DC *could* get Dick and Kori back together. But they won't, because that puts too much superhuman into the book when DC wants Dick limited to being a Bat. 

For the same reason, we won't get the Nightwing-Power Girl ship that I endorse either. A flying alien, in a book about gritty street vigilantism? Perish the thought! 

DC will likely just keep flip flopping between Babs and Kori, using one or the other for various "possible future" stories and adaptations, while the main canon cycles through short-term girlfriends who amount to less than Shawn did, with the occasional "will they/won't they" tease involving Babs (and Kori once in a while) without actually committing to anything. Which is a piss poor way to handle things, but is easier than actually putting any real thought or effort into the situation.

----------


## Digifiend

> the poster didn't mention. I assume it's one of the Doom Metal


It says Fabok 2017 on it, so it's too old for that. It would have to be a Rebirth era issue.

----------


## Robanker

> That's the thing, we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Nightwing fandom is pretty passionately split along the Babs/Kori divide, and Babs will never work as a love interest as long as DC is pursuing her as a solo character (including her co-leading the BoP), and Kori will never work as long as DC is intent on keeping Dick more connected to Gotham than Titans Tower. 
> 
> If DC decided to seriously go with either of those two, the other half of the fandom would revolt and are damn unlikely to embrace the "other side" winning. If DC tries to introduce someone new, it has to be spun out over the long term. It has to be built slowly, so the fans *want* to see a relationship develop and are actively yelling about how long it's taking DC to pull the trigger. But for that to happen, you need people at DC who are interested and capable of that long-term investment, as well as a love interest who is worth rooting for.


And therein lies the rub. Sadly, I don't see it ever resolving. I'm among those converted to the first church of PowerWing-- long may it reign-- but what it really comes down to is that the shipping war is scorching the Grayson earth. Both sides demand to see him with one while the run is going on and won't shut their mouths until he hooks up with Barbara/Kory and afterward the other half demand the change. His life cannot be about anything but which redhead he's interested in because a large portion of his fanbase are so in love with him that they just want his book to be about his love life. I'm convinced it should be a YA book series about Dick Grayson and his love triangle. That shit would sell more than anything. Probably get adapted into a CW show. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

More than anything, the new Nightwing series needs to establish early on that he's just come back from the whole Ric thing and really, *really* just wants some time on his own. Have him team up with both love interests independently, not follow a romance yet (fine, bait the hook but don't commit to keep them buying) and just be about Dick Grayson for a while. Again, I like both ships, but that fandom needs to be starved a while because the character is becoming toxic to the idea of stories revolving around anything else other than who he's hooking up with.

----------


## Ascended

> And therein lies the rub. Sadly, I don't see it ever resolving.


Possible. But let's keep in mind that DC is under new management and the corporate structure has been completely upended. It is entirely possible that Dick starts getting better treatment going forward. Hell, he's already started getting better treatment than the last few years gave us, a little consistency and world building in his book isn't a huge stretch. The love interest is a quagmire they'll likely put off on resolving for a while (it's not a necessary element of the narrative while also being a huge pain in the ass) but if the character gets some real effort, this aspect of the IP will eventually have to be tackled too.

Given that AT&T seem to be big on synergy and the adaptation potential of the source material, and considering how popular Dick is in larger media, his odds of quality treatment might actually be higher than the odds of him still getting marginalized. I mean, if the goal now really is to push these IP's into bigger, new markets, Nightwing is better positioned than a lot of characters for it and if AT&T have half a brain, they'll recognize that. And this isn't even my fandom talking, this is the business. Far as I can tell, Dick is a IP that already does fairly well in larger media and still has plenty of growth potential.

Do we know how his YA OGN sold? I gave it a quick Google but didn't find anything.

----------


## Konja7

> Possible. But let's keep in mind that DC is under new management and the corporate structure has been completely upended. It is entirely possible that Dick starts getting better treatment going forward. Hell, he's already started getting better treatment than the last few years gave us, a little consistency and world building in his book isn't a huge stretch. The love interest is a quagmire they'll likely put off on resolving for a while (it's not a necessary element of the narrative while also being a huge pain in the ass) but if the character gets some real effort, this aspect of the IP will eventually have to be tackled too.
> 
> Given that AT&T seem to be big on synergy and the adaptation potential of the source material, and considering how popular Dick is in larger media, his odds of quality treatment might actually be higher than the odds of him still getting marginalized. I mean, if the goal now really is to push these IP's into bigger, new markets, Nightwing is better positioned than a lot of characters for it and if AT&T have half a brain, they'll recognize that. And this isn't even my fandom talking, this is the business. Far as I can tell, Dick is a IP that already does fairly well in larger media and still has plenty of growth potential.
> 
> Do we know how his YA OGN sold? I gave it a quick Google but didn't find anything.


The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital. 

OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero. 

Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).

----------


## AmiMizuno

double post by accident

----------


## AmiMizuno

> For the same reason Bruce doesn't have Clark and Barry fix Gotham. Dick and Bruce might be part of teams in the wider DCU, but they're Bats first and foremost, which means their interactions with the supernatural and superhuman are largely limited to those team books (discounting the occasional low/mid-tier meta like Blockbuster or Croc) and their solo stuff is largely non-powered, street level vigilante adventures.
> 
> For Dick and Kori to be together, DC would have to acknowledge the Titans as something more than just the team Dick is sometimes a part of; they'd have to admit that the Titans side of Dick's history is a actual part of his personal life that matters to him, and not just a side gig.
> 
> DC *could* get Dick and Kori back together. But they won't, because that puts too much superhuman into the book when DC wants Dick limited to being a Bat. 
> 
> For the same reason, we won't get the Nightwing-Power Girl ship that I endorse either. A flying alien, in a book about gritty street vigilantism? Perish the thought! 
> 
> DC will likely just keep flip flopping between Babs and Kori, using one or the other for various "possible future" stories and adaptations, while the main canon cycles through short-term girlfriends who amount to less than Shawn did, with the occasional "will they/won't they" tease involving Babs (and Kori once in a while) without actually committing to anything. Which is a piss poor way to handle things, but is easier than actually putting any real thought or effort into the situation.


Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up.  I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way

----------


## Ascended

> The thing is the focus for new and bigger market is likely on OGNs or digital. 
> 
> OGNs don't care about continuity (like you can see in Lost Carnival). That means you won't have almost any of Dick Grayson story, since an OGN for Dick will likely build Dick's story from zero. 
> 
> Dick Grayson could still be relegated in main continuity books (especially as they want to focus on the big names for that aspect).


The focus is going to be on digital, and presumably OGN's, yes, but that doesn't negate the possibility of Nightwing being sorted out and his love life set straight. 

In digital and OGN, while a lot of liberties can and will be taken, the stuff that proves to be popular will likely filter into the main canon when and where it can. Not a perfect analogy here, but consider things like kryptonite and the Fortress of Solitude. Green rocks that can hurt Superman originated in radio and filtered into main continuity and now kryptonite can be found in basically every Superman adaptation and story there is. The Fortress started out in the comics but never really had a strong visual identity outside of a giant key....until Donner did the stuff with the crystal castle, and now that aesthetic is used for the Fortress in the vast majority of Superman stories. 

Bottom line, the stuff that works will stick, regardless of format. If a OGN tells a love story with Dick and Kori (or Babs, or Power Girl, or who the hell ever) and that proves very successful and adaptation-friendly, then that relationship has good odds of making its way into other formats too.

As far as the direct market goes, who the hell knows if Dick's solo will survive? It still sells in the top half of DC's rankings and Dick is still a pretty big character with tons of larger media presence under his belt, so I don't think his solo is dead in the water. And if it survives, the stuff that is successful in other formats will filter into the main canon when possible.

----------


## WonderNight

> Yea it's dumb. Dick isn't unlike like Bruce. So it's weird that they treat him like it. From messy relationships. We know if Dick needs it he would call for help. Unlike Bruce. He might be a bat but it is willing to admit a lot of things. I mean heck they don't have to acknowledge him kori. Rather than Titans matter to him. I don't get why it would be hard. With the Titans, he gets to be traveling around and be around other people who care for him. Dc can make a good crossover if they tried but no. I Dick/ Raven team-up.  I mean if Batman can have one every now and then so should Dick. I mean Dick is both a Batfam and Titan. So we should have it that way


Well I believe the way for nightwing's growth is for him to become a titan first and foremost, you know the whole reason he became nightwing in the first place!

If the nightwing solo was written as a solo titans book there wouldn't be no problem with him dating superpowered aliens or humans or amazons or furry ect. There wouldn't be any limits on what nightwing could do or be.

But being a bat first and foremost has put the cuffs on him and with more and more bats nightwing just fades more and more into the background. That's one of the main reasons Grayson felt so good, it was dick with no limits no cuffs.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean we can have both of Dc doesn’t just treat him like a Bat. But a Bat and Titan. If they reopen it then it would open. Once moment in Bludhaven the next at the T tower.

I been thinking career wise. Community center that has a international branches. That way he is global traveling

----------


## Badou

I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that. 

It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them. 

Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center. 

The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved. 

Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.

----------


## Konja7

> I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that. 
> 
> It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them. 
> 
> Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center. 
> 
> The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved. 
> 
> Then there was that stretch where they tried to make Two-Face into more of a personal villain for Dick which never worked. Even the Court of Owls story Dick was kind of marginalized in it as it was very much a Bruce and Batman story first and foremost. I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.


As you say, I don't think Judas Contract stood the test of time. Honestly, I don't see a big story for Dick there. 

I read in this forum that Judas Contract was important for Dick, but I was dissapointed in that aspect when I read it.

Dick has two or three pages devoted to he becoming Nightwing, but the rest of the story hardly focuses on him.

----------


## Pohzee

The Judas Contract is probably the most adapted and retold DC Story of all time for what it's worth.

And yeah, it's unfortunate that he's not in the 3 Jokers. Fabok had said on Twitter that he and Johns had considered it, but ultimately decided to keep the story more focused. I think that Dick would have made an interesting counterpoint to the main cast coming from a healthier perspective with less deep trauma. Which would be a perfect role for Dick IMO. But I totally get it

----------


## Claude

> I was thinking about it and I am a bit sad that Dick isn't in the Three Jokers story. I understand what Johns is going for with wanting 3 heroes for the 3 Jokers with each dealing with their "own" Joker, so he didn't want anyone else in the story, but my problem comes with Johns deciding to use the Golden Age Joker. Every single appearance of the Golden Age Joker Dick was always with Bruce. They always took him on together in those stories and to have all of Dick's appearances in those Golden Age stories be kind of discounted and just have that Joker be Bruce's own personal Joker is a little disappointing to me. It would have been great to see the two of them take on the Golden Age Joker again and have things come full circle, but Johns didn't want that.


With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include _all_ of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down. 




> It is something I find a bit frustrating with Dick's character that his status as a Golden Age hero tends to get discounted. He predates so many other characters, heroes, and villains, but it feels like with every reboot or continuity shift that status gets lessened more and more. It just kind of sucks. He has so much history and was part of so many stories, but DC is so quick to overlook his involvement in them. 
> 
> Also I guess part of the issue is that he doesn't really have any "iconic" Joker stories where he is the focus. He's been fighting the Joker for 80 years and the Joker has done horrible things to him, but no story really stands out enough to where it feels essential. That can be said about any major villain I guess and is probably one of the biggest problems with Dick as a character. He doesn't have any real iconic stories with major villains where he is at the center. 
> 
> The closest he has is maybe Judas Contract with Deathstroke, but they will never make Deathstroke a Nightwing villain because Nightwing isn't a big enough brand to use Deathstroke in that way. Deathstroke is more of a Batman villain than he is a Titans one these days anyway it feels like. But even Judas Contract as much as it gets reused for things it isn't really a story that stood the test of time the same way those iconic 80s to early 90s Batman stories have. It was very much of its era. By that I mean the comic story itself isn't consumed the same way as those Batman stories despite JC getting adapted every time there is some new Titans iteration or property. So it is a popular and iconic story, but the comic isn't read that much anymore. Although they did that Teen Titans Earth One series, where they again adapted a version of Judas Contract, but Dick/Robin wasn't even in it. So not even DC views Judas Contract as being an essential Dick Grayson story where he has to be involved.


I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick _has_ to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a _long_ time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.




> I can't really think of any more iconic or at least wildly successful villain stories were Dick is at the center of it. Maybe because Nightwing is looked at as a step below DC's top heroes that will always prevent the character from ever getting those iconic villain stories.


Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic _Nightwing_ stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.

Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke. 

Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.

DC and Dick would only benefit.

----------


## WonderNight

Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.

Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes. 

Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #74 Preview

https://comixwire.com/2020/09/05/pag...-74-comic-c20/

----------


## Konja7

> Well nightwing not any having iconic villains or stories is the result of most always playing the support character role in most big stories.
> 
> Dick doesn't have to lose his solo for a titans team book just change his solo into a titans book. Less bat like more crazy dcu villains in more cool dcu places with more dcu heroes. 
> 
> Make nightwing's solo into a dcu book and not just another bat book.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think New Teen Titans has many stories that focus on Dick, right? 

Judas Contract is a popular story and Dick becomes Nightwing, but he is hardly the focus on that story

----------


## cc008

> Nightwing #74 Preview
> 
> https://comixwire.com/2020/09/05/pag...-74-comic-c20/


That smile is so irksome. I'd rather him be Ric lol.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick _has_ to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a _long_ time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.


Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.

Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?

But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.
> 
> Unfortunately Hickman himself would the only author who has also expressed interest in the property that could pull that off, but he's unavailable. And with DC's business model up in the air at this point, who knows if the "maybe when he's done with the X-Men" pipe dream is on the table anymore?
> 
> But I salivate at the thought of Hickman writing with Phil Jimenez as artist. Keep the iconic Titans and villains (so basically just the Fab 5 + NTT crew), ditch pretty much everything else and go ham on designing new stuff to add onto it.


Whats the point if f Batdaddy can shut them down anytime
Hell if they had stayed together Roy would be alive

----------


## Claude

> Dick leading the Titans back to A-list status would be the ideal. The problem is that getting the Titans out of the rut they've been in since the 80s has proven very difficult after numerous (admittedly half assed) attempts. The Titans desperately need a HoX/PoX type of seismic shift.


See, I don't know if it would need a HoX/PoX, but it would definitely need need a Green Lantern: Rebirth. Annoyingly, there's a parallel world out there where "Titans Hunt" had a better creative team, didn't have it's run truncated, and was any good at all - and it would have been perfect. The return of Wally West gave the series a sense of importance to the rest of the DCU - and a solid burst of goodwill that neither the miniseries nor the ongoing following on from it capitalised on at all. The fact that Abnett was given _three_ swings at relaunching Titans and flubbed it each time is hugely galling....


I'm still hoping that the combination of Tynion making a point of Deathstroke being motivated by animosity towards Dick in his "Batman", and Williamson getting five Death-Metal-significant issues of Justice League to reunite the Dick, Kori and Vic is some kind of unusually thought-through coordination. 

Still, might not be long now - didn't Alex Ross's painting of the NTT have tags suggesting we'd hear more and Fandome II next weekend?

----------


## Badou

> With my big, phallus-shaped Dick Fan hat on I 100% agree - but I think every member of the Bat Family has suffered in recent years from the idea that if you include one of them, you have to include _all_ of them. Too many Bat Family summits where they share lines and quips and noone gets anything interesting to do - so I can see the logic in paring it down.


My main problem with it comes from Johns using the Golden Age Joker. If he had used a different Joker I think I would feel differently, but I believe 100% of the Golden Age Joker's appearances Dick was always with Bruce. So for Johns to take that Joker and then use him specifically for Bruce and discount Dick's involvement completely didn't sit well with me. I feel like Dick being there for every single one of their encounters should matter at least some.




> I'm coming around to the idea that this is because the idea that Dick _has_ to have a monthly solo is more of a hindrance than a boon at this point - in terms of iconic status, being the leader of the team that battles Trigon and Deathstroke and Blackfire beats out being the person who solo battles Blockbuster, Shrike and Raptor. But Dick hasn't been able to be fully commited to that world for a _long_ time, because he also has to be living in Bludhaven and battling the Mad Hatter and having walk-on parts in endless stories about Gotham being destroyed.


I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains. 

I mean just look at what they did with that Rebirth story with Wally. They had this set up with his disappearance being caused by Dr Manhattan with so much hype around it, but when they started telling that story in the Titans book they couldn't use Manhattan because the Titans book isn't an important enough franchise to use that kind of villain. Instead they had Abra Kadabra be the cause of Wally's disappearance in an awful story. Instead of getting some other A-tier villain to use if Manhattan was off the table they used Abra Kadabra. That is the level the of villains and stories of the Titans franchise. They will never be treated or looked at like the JL where they face bigger or more important threats. 

So I don't see what value the Titans comics can provide when their track record is filled with terrible stories. Even more so than Bludhaven. At least Bludhaven has produced some okay stories in the last 25 years, but for Dick the Titans has produced nothing. They are still just riding off their success from the 80s. I'd want to see that franchise produce a good, maybe even great, Dick Grayson story first before I'd even consider wanting Dick to give up his solo book.





> Speaking more widely, I don't think I can name any iconic _Nightwing_ stories at all! You've got "Black Mirror" from when he was Batman, I'd put the whole of "Grayson" up there too, but between O'Neill and Dixon through to Seeley and Percy, I don't think there's a single go-to "Oh, you like Nightwing? Well, obviously you'll have read [[blank]]" story.
> 
> Cancel the monthly. Bite the bullet and do it. Make a Dick a full-time Titans character, give that team a real push to capitalise on it's other-media success - lean in to the fact that between Dick, Raven, Cyborg and Starfire you've got a variety of settings and villains the team can operate in (street-level, magic, High Science/Tech, alien) and lean into that. Give them back Deathstroke. 
> 
> Then give Dick a mini or maxi-series every couple of years for solo things. Do one-shots for when you want him to be involved in Gotham Armageddon 2020 This Time We Mean It.
> 
> DC and Dick would only benefit.


The problem with Black Mirror and why I didn't count it in my previous post was because James Gordon Jr isn't an iconic villain. Dick just doesn't have any great stories with iconic villains with Dick as the focus which to me really stands out as a major flaw in the character's history. Since those are the kind of stories people gravitate to even as time goes on.

I've already said my peace about the Titans franchise above, but thinking about the whole situation more I think I realized the biggest mistake made with the character which connects to the Titans, and it might be my most controversial opinion. Dick never should have given up the Robin identity in the 80s. As successful as Nightwing has been it has never matched what Robin is, and Dick giving up that iconic identity lowered his ceiling. 

I understand why it happened. With the NTT creators and the Batman creators being split on what to do with Robin. With the success of the NTT series in the 80s it made sense to them at the time to do what they did an create a new Robin for the Batman books to use and shift Dick to just be a Titans character, but looking back on it now that was a major mistake for the character. It was great for characters like Jason or Tim since it allowed them to exist, but it diffused the Robin identity and lessened Dicks importance in the long run.

The 80s and early 90s really redefined Batman and had his creators produce many of the classic and iconic stories that are still read today. And Dick being absent from that era of stories because he gave up the Robin identity and was limited to just being in Titans hurt the character in the long run. Since those Titans stories of that era I don't think stood the test of time.

----------


## Pohzee

Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I'm the biggest Bludhaven hater around and would love to see DC just retire it, but I don't see the Titans as a step up. If anything they are a step down given they have produced zero stories of value in the last several decades with Dick in them. It's been a complete disaster of a franchise in the comics. So for Dick to give up his solo book and be contained there feels like a bad idea. Deathstroke has outgrown the Titans unfortunately, *but I don't look at villains like Blackfire or Trigon and think they are any better than the normal Bludhaven tier villains.*


Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered. 

I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.

I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.




> Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?


I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.

As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s. 

I think he would have been better off in some ways.

----------


## Konja7

> Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?


I don't know if this is true, but I read Batman editorial wants Dick to be younger at that time, it has sense since they want Robin to be sidekick of Batman. 

Mark Wolfman doesn't want this. As New Teen Titans was a big success at that time, he was able to avoid this, but Dick had to give up Robin identity.

If this had happened about 5 years later, Wolfman would not have been able to avoid this, since New Teen Titans would have lost most of his popularity.


So, the most likely is that Dick will be younger as Robin (honestly, the Crisis would be the perfect opportunity for this) and work with Batman again. Who knows what will happen with the other Titans. 

When they want Batman to be solitary again (at the times of "A Death in the Family"), they won't kill him. They will probably put him in other comics. 

That said, Dick will likely get a solo as Robin in the 90s (maybe even earlier).

----------


## Konja7

> I can't speak for Badou, but we would probably be looking at a smaller Bat-Family had they not figured out a lucrative alternative with Jason and just wrote him out or something. No precedent for passing on mantles, unless it materialized somewhere else. This would be either a detriment to the franchise or a positive depending on who you ask.
> 
> As an adult hero leading his own team, the reputation for Robin becoming more serious could have been in stories told with Dick. He's not Batman's sidekick anymore and say he got the Neal Adams costume (designed for Dick in the first place). You can have an adult Robin easier than you can have the other Fab 5 be adults ("Girl," "Kid," "Lad"). Plus it's his identity that he's had since the 1940s. 
> 
> I think he would have been better off in some ways.


As I mentioned, if Dick mantained the Robin mantle, he wouldn't likely be an adult anymore. That likely will affect the Titans franchise too.

That said, Dick will likely grow again. And he will get a solo as Robin at some point (and his suit likely get pants), so he will be independent.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea. Dick is both a Batfam and titan first. So I wonder how long we will get to see both. With good writers it's not that harde to get a good nightwing story going.

----------


## Badou

> Badou, I agree with your analysis of how we got here, but I'm curious: where do you think we would be at today if he had held on to the Robin mantle?


I was thinking about that while writing my previous post. I guess there are two outcomes. One is that he keeps the Robin identity, but he still gets moved over to the Titans franchise full time and the Batman office creates a new young sidekick with a new identity to be Batman's partner. Maybe there would have been less backlash for a Jason-type character if he didn't "take" the Robin identity. So there wouldn't have been a push to kill him off in a Death in the Family type of story. So he might have stuck around and filled a Tim-like role into the 90s, but without the Robin identity I don't know how popular or successful he would have been. 

Also with Dick still being Robin he might have gotten used in more Batman stories during that era even if he was still a Titans character. Since Robin is so important to Batman. So maybe a lot of those Batman stories in that era Dick would have been involved. Like Death in the Family if it still happened might have used him, Killing Joke might have used him if Dick is still prominent as Robin in the Batman stories, and the biggest change might have been the Knightfall story. It could have been completely different where after Bane breaks Batman maybe Dick takes on the Batman mantle to avenge him and defeat Bane instead of Jean-Paul Valley, which might have been the "iconic" Dick Grayson story that I was talking about originally with a big time villain that Dick doesn't have. Maybe Batman issue #500 could have been this landmark issue where it is Dick taking on the Batman identity instead of JPV. Then you figure Dick would have gotten a solo Robin book in the 90s when Tim did and it could still be running today and it might be looked at as a bigger title since it is Robin. 

The other outcome is he keeps the Robin identity and gets moved back to the Batman books. I don't know if the NTT series would have stayed successful without him because Wally also left around that time. So for that book to lose two major characters might have damaged it a lot. Maybe they would have deaged Dick some if that was an intention the Batman office had when they took him back, but obviously this means that Jason and Tim probably never get created. Dick doesn't really miss out on any major Titans stories with the well known ones already having happened before this, and his role as Robin probably changes many of those Batman stories I mentioned above. Like if some version of Death in the Family still happens and Dick is the Robin in it he probably wouldn't have been killed off or at least brought back soon after. Then Dick still would have gotten that Robin solo book, which would have been different to Tim's given their different backgrounds, and I guess he might have been used in a new Young Justice team in the 90s with DC wanting to create a new team comprised of young versions of their main heroes. 

The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.




> Yikes, really? Blackfire and Trigon are overplayed by the Titans franchise standards and it needs fresh villains, but they are vastly better than anything Bludhaven has ever offered. 
> 
> I agree that, as it is now, the Titans are not an ideal step up. Maybe with DiDio gone and whatever overhaul they're doing with their line, things could be looking up. But the Titans, as overly reliant as they are on the glory of the 80s, at least have that. Bludhaven, IMO, is a Never Was.
> 
> I do agree with your point on the Robin identity though. As great as the first Nightwing story was, Perez left the book shortly after. So it's not like Dick was Nighwing for much of the good Titans stuff. He's been successful as Nightwing, but nothing has eclipsed his time as Robin in iconography and importance. It's not going to be able to, the entire point of Nightwing is informed by being Robin first.


Trigon I'd concede on, even though he just has the one story, but I don't see how villains like Blackfire are any better than a Blockbuster. I'd even rate Blockbuster over her if I had to choose. 

Maybe with Didio gone things will get better for the franchise, but I don't think it will. I just don't think the adult Titans work as a concept like I've mentioned before. As adults they are stuck between not being on the level of the JL and too old to be the "young" generation that is the hallmark of the Teen Titans/Young Justice franchises, even though as adults they still get treated as the young heroes to their detriment. 

Yeah, I agree with that. Robin is one of the most iconic identities in all of comics. To expect an identity like Nightwing to measure up to that is asking for nearly the impossible. Though Nightwing has been successful for what it is. I don't want to discount that, but it just isn't Robin. I mean Nightwing doesn't even really have a solid origin story which is crazy to think about. The Judas Contract one isn't even canon anymore, the Batman firing him one isn't great and gets changed around, and I don't think DC ever even explained how Dick became Nightwing in the New 52. Then the Titans TV show came up with a brand new origin for it, haha. That is probably something else that hurts the Nightwing identity, but that is a whole different discussion.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So how should Robin become Nightwing?

----------


## Konja7

> So how should Robin become Nightwing?


Maybe it is because the type of stories I like, but I would rather that Dick becomes Nightwing in a story that totally focus on him.

Many say that Dick becomes Nightwing in a good story like Judas Contract. 

However, I was dissapointed in that aspect of the story since Dick is hardly the focus there. I think he dissapear most of the arc, while the transition to Nightwing is two or three pages.

----------


## Pohzee

I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.

----------


## Digifiend

> The only problem with deaging Dick would have been with characters like Wally West. Since he and Dick are the same age and if he is running around as Flash then you might have some continuity problems if Dick is being written younger as Robin. Maybe DC would have decided to reboot all of their younger characters if they were okay with deaging Dick which would have caused an avalanche of changes. There are so many variables to account for with all this that it is tough to line everything up and guess how it all would have played out. It is fun to think about though, lol.


Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.

----------


## Konja7

> I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.


Well, Dick is perpetually 20s now. He is still considered a sidekick by DC, but he doesn't have the iconic mantle.

Honestly, the only way Dick could be totally independent and grow is if NTT mantained its success. They will likely reduce the age difference between Bruce and Dick, so both could be adults. 

That said, I don't know if the concept of NTT (teen heroes looking for their place) could last a long time, which will always be problem in comics.

----------


## Badou

> So how should Robin become Nightwing?


Ideally it would happen in some iconic story. Origin stories should be the easiest to make iconic, but Judas Contract isn't canon anymore and the origin of Bruce firing Dick from Robin and that being what makes him take on a new identity is horrible in my opinion. Bruce firing him and taking the Robin identity away completely removes all of Dick own agency for his growth as a hero. Bruce taking away an identity that Dick created himself just never sat well with me.




> I think that if Dick stayed Robin he would be where Tim is at now. Perpetually 17-19. Sure he's be a lot more iconic or higher status- a twofold effect of retaining the iconic mantle and that mantle not being degraded by a rotating cast of successors. There would be no other Robins leading the Titans, no other partners to Batman, only Dick. But at what cost? It'd rob a lot of what makes the character appealing to me now.


Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.

It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.




> Wally wouldn't have become the new Flash after Crisis on Infinite Earths if Dick hadn't become Nightwing. He wasn't the original plan, they were going to create a completely new Flash.


I always figured Wally was their first choice.

----------


## Konja7

> Well that would also depend on if the Batman office tried to create new sidekicks for Batman with new identities if Dick kept the Robin identity and they didn't deage him. So he could be where he is at as Nightwing now, but maybe with a higher ceiling because the Robin identity is bigger than Nightwing. Although Dick now isn't aging anymore anyway. They did deage him to 21 for the New 52, so he has kind of reached his limit of how old DC will ever make him.
> 
> It is always a bit weird to me that Dick created the Robin identity and wore it for 40 years, but he doesn't have any ownership of it. It feels more like Batman owns it these days and decided who gets to be it.


The problem is the strongest association of Robin is with Batman in general audience minds (even stronger than the association of Robin mantle with Dick). 

That's why it is considered that Batman has the ownership with the identity. Only some big Dick fans (and not all) will care about Dick opinion about the new Robin. 


Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.

----------


## Bikkun

> Batgirl has a similar situation about this, since people associate her a lot with Batman (that's why Batman end up being a mentor for Batgirl after some retcons). However, in Barbara's case, the way she lost the identity make some of her fans more vocal if she was ignored in the decision.


In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.

----------


## Konja7

> In-universe, Barbara is VERY possessive of Batgirl post-Crisis. It is HER name. She is outraged when a new Batgirl appears during No Man's Land, moreso when she finds out it's Huntress and shuts down Charlotte as Batgirl, actively scaring her off the vigilante life (only for her to return as Misfit) and initially disapproved of Stephanie before she prove herself. It's definitely different from Robin. Batman owning the name is the in-universe reason Dick gave it up; Robin is Batman's sidekick and that wasn't him anymore.


Dick as Robin has a good amount of independent stories (and not only with Teen Titans). So, Dick as Robin being exclusively Batman's sidekick is people rewriting story due to concepts they associate with a character.

My point is that Batgirl has a strong association with Batman and there is an idea that Batman has certain ownership about that identity too. That's why Batman becomes mentor of Batgirl after some retcons (when she was pretty independent at first). Also, I remember some fans think Bruce will have some power of decision on Stephanie mantaining Batgirl mantle (in fact, Bruce had influence there) even when Barbara has already accepted her.

----------


## WonderNight

Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.

----------


## Bikkun

> Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.


What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.

----------


## WonderNight

> What? Why? Dick is Nightwing again, like, this month.


Just wait for the next batman event. Dick may get shot in his famous butt next time.

Dick is becoming nightwing again in batman's book. I'd say where mostly at the point where batman controls nightwing.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick becoming Nightwing again is meaningless. He is just going right back to Jurgens so Jurgens can repeat the same thing he's been doing on Ric over and over. As to returning to Robin. Well they aren't, and haven't, been doing any better with Robin then they have with Nightwing.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well the way things are going batman gonna have ownership of nightwing and who can be it.


He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception. 

Switching topic

We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss? 
In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.

In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day

----------


## dietrich

> He already does. I mean it's canceled after fans found out and there's a backlash, but Harper was going to be Nightwing in Batman Eternal. Then there's King's idea of making Tim Nightwing which we don't know if it's Tim or Bruce's idea. The only thing preventing it to be an actual written canon is the fans, but for all intents and purposes, DC already considers Nightwing to belong to Batman, with Seeley as the known exception. 
> 
> Switching topic
> 
> We talked about Dick's first time, but who's his first kiss? 
> In Rebirth as far as we know it was Babs, during her first adventure together with him as Batgirl and Robin, in Summer of Lies.
> 
> In New 52 Dick's first crushes were Raya and Babs, but he didn't become involved with Raya until the present day


Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.

it was never proposed to editorial.

If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.

Dick Grayson just like Harley Quinn, huntress etc are all batman supporting characters no matter how big they get they all still come under the Batman media franchise. Until they become so big to be their own franchises then they will always be seen by DC as Batman's support sadly

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tim becoming Nightwing was never a thing. It was an idea that King came up with in a podcast.
> 
> it was never proposed to editorial.
> 
> If the idea had gone ahead than it would be a decision tim would make not Bruce. bruce doesn't get input into nightwing or bludhaven. There is no precedence.


They never pitch the Tim one, but the Harper case did go as far as character design, and I don't see her just picking that identity on her own, she never even met him up to that point, so it has to be Bruce's idea. With Tim, it makes sense if he wants to take it on his own if he's written as his Post-Crisis self but King likes to change stuff or make up his own story, so who knows.

----------


## Drako

Well... it's finally over! Two years of torment came to an end in a underwhelming way.

----------


## L.H.

I agree, It was underwhelming. But it's over, and that's the only thing I care about. Now I'm waiting for the new creative team.

Adding up: that nightmare ended the same day Heroes in Crisis was retconned in Flash #761. I hope it's a good sign.

----------


## Morgoth

Shitty storyline with Ric is over, Heroes in Crisis (and not only, as far, as I understand) retcon. Nice day for DC and it's fans.
And, probably, bad day for DiDio)

----------


## cc008

> Well... it's finally over! Two years of torment came to an end in a underwhelming way.


Pretty fitting. But at the end of the day, it's OVER. We can finally move forward.

----------


## Blue22

> Well... it's finally over! Two years of torment came to an end in a underwhelming way.


I'm okay with that. Just like I'm okay with HiC being retconned into "another convoluted Thawne plot". As long as those chapters in Dick and Wally's lives are over, I'm happy.

Now bring Roy back and reunite the Titans.

----------


## Digifiend

Looks like that's happening too, look at the cover for November's Teen Titans finale, an issue which guest stars the original Titans. There are silhouettes shown and one is an archer - that should be Arsenal.

----------


## mib86

> They never pitch the Tim one, but the Harper case did go as far as character design, and I don't see her just picking that identity on her own, she never even met him up to that point, so it has to be Bruce's idea. With Tim, it makes sense if he wants to take it on his own if he's written as his Post-Crisis self but King likes to change stuff or make up his own story, so who knows.


Honestly,it was good they don't took neither of those roads.
I always thought Robin and Batgirl as sidekick positions that the young heroes leave behind when they grow up to take their personal mantles:Nightwing,Reed Hood,Oracle and so on.
For this reason i don't think those names should leave their original hero.
The only thing i don't like of Stephanie as Batgirl series is the idea of her somehow becoming Nightwing in the distant future  (even if it's only implied)

----------


## Jackalope89

Well, Dick is finally back and the issue overall.... Well, he's back.

----------


## Godlike13

Issue was beyond awful, utterly anticlimactic, and Jurgens yet again tries to cover the holes by treating readers as if they are stupid. Good thing Dick's back though so Jurgens can continue on doing what he's been doing LoL.

----------


## DragonPiece

wish the issue had better art, but I imagine the big return issue is actually batman 99 anyways.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So Rick arc is over and let's hope this is the start of a new day

----------


## Badou

Oh but we get months more of Bea and Ric fallout still! Dick is going after KGBeast because Bruce already having gone after him, Barbara already having gone after him, and Damian already having gone after him in different stories wasn't enough. We get to see it a fourth time! 

There is no hope for the book until they relaunch it with a new creative team, imo.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

Finally it's over! 
Very happy that they put Donna among Dick's memories.

----------


## Avi

This issue was exactly what I expected it to be: a whole bunch of nothingness. Though I foolishly hoped that at least the memory return would be better, sadly  I actually prefer the #68 (or was it #69?) glimpse into dick's memories even if this one got a yay for Donna from me as well. 

i want to be looking forward to the KGBeast arc but... eh. I'd rather like for it to be over entirely. This doesn't need a fallout. It just needs to be erased. Doesn't help that the Annual fell flat for me too, so I'm not at all positive that Jurgens knows how to write Dick. Thankfully I didn't read the other arcs of going after KGBeast but just hearing that the same stories has been told pretty much three times already, it's just another reason to not like where this is going.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Finally it's over! 
> Very happy that they put Donna among Dick's memories.


But not starfire

----------


## AmiMizuno

Because Dan doesn't like Dick. Starfire can't be important to Dick.

----------


## Frontier

> Because Dan doesn't like Dick. Starfire can't be important to Dick.


I could say the same for the Bat-Editorial in general. 

At least Seeley seemed fine acknowledging the Titans and Kori as a significant ex.

----------


## cranger

I liked this. I only started reading about 7 issues ago, and can't imagine having whatever it seems was the story leading up to this dragging on for so long, but from my short time, the wrap up of the Talon/Haas stuff going into the Joker War tie in story was a pretty fun ride but from the sounds of it I am lucky to have that limited perspective on it lol

----------


## Badou

Starfire hasn't been that important to Dick in decades in the comics to be fair. So they are just being consistent. They were fine with giving her character to Jason at the start of the New 52 to fill out his relationships/connections more. She shouldn't even be aware of the Ric situation as she has been in space for all of it.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, she only finds out about that when they reunite in Justice League's Death Metal tie-in.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Because Dan doesn't like Dick. Starfire can't be important to Dick.


They literally have been on different world for the last two years
Their not in each others lives

----------


## AmiMizuno

> They literally have been on different world for the last two years
> Their not in each other’s lives


But they, in general, don't think she is important.  I know Starfire isn't on Earth. It's just they don't think his time with the Titans are that important.

What do you guys think about the disco suit being cannon?

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm okay with that. Just like I'm okay with HiC being retconned into "another convoluted Thawne plot". As long as those chapters in Dick and Wally's lives are over, I'm happy.


Wait, what's that about Thawne and Wally? Details, please!

----------


## L.H.

> Wait, what's that about Thawne and Wally? Details, please!


From Flash #761

IMG_20200910_204651.jpg

----------


## Digifiend

Dick and Duke team up in Tales from the Dark Multiverse: Dark Nights Metal.
https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-events...e-in-december/

There's also a Crisis on Infinite Earths one, in which Earth-2, not Earth-1, became the dominant Earth - which I guess means Earth-2 Robin survives and not Nightwing. He won't be a main character in that one though, it seems to focus on Kal-L and the JSA.

----------


## Restingvoice

> From Flash #761
> 
> IMG_20200910_204651.jpg


This looks really (speed) forced (lol) but ah well... stupid decisions deserve a stupid retcon

----------


## Drako

> This looks really (speed) forced (lol) but ah well... *stupid decisions deserve a stupid retcon*


I couldn't agree more.

----------


## yohyoi

> I liked this. I only started reading about 7 issues ago, and can't imagine having whatever it seems was the story leading up to this dragging on for so long, but from my short time, the wrap up of the Talon/Haas stuff going into the Joker War tie in story was a pretty fun ride but from the sounds of it I am lucky to have that limited perspective on it lol


I haven't read it. Ric is too much for me. R I C

----------


## L.H.

> This looks really (speed) forced (lol) but ah well... stupid decisions deserve a stupid retcon


👍 Right. HiC deserves to be detroyed with no more than a pic. 
Now, Williamson, give us a Titans run, please.

----------


## failo.legendkiller

> Right. HiC deserves to be detroyed with no more than a pic. 
> Now, Williamson, give us a Titans run, please.


I must confess, it is satisfying. Im not a King hater. I loved some of his works, Grayson first of all, bt HIC should be forgotten for good.
Williamson on Titans? mmh it could be interesting.

----------


## Restingvoice

Robin 80th Deluxe cover

888766._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

----------


## Pohzee

In their list of favorite Batman family stories, the Gotham Knights devs list Grayson: Agent of Spyral as their favorite Dick Grayson story. I find that incredibly encouraging

----------


## cc008

> In their list of favorite Batman family stories, the Gotham Knights devs list Grayson: Agent of Spyral as their favorite Dick Grayson story. I find that incredibly encouraging


Wouldn't mind an Agent 37 outfit for the game at all

----------


## Konja7

The solicitations doesn't mention this is the Final Issue.

However, there is a theory we will have a general relaunch in January. Death Metal will end on December (#6 and #7 will be released that month), while all Endless Winter event will happen on December.

Also, the cover of Nightwing #77 seems a last issue cover.

----------


## Light of Justice

written by DAN JURGENS
art by RONAN CLIQUET
cover by TRAVIS MOORE
variant cover by ALAN QUAH
ON SALE 12/15/20
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
Christmas has come to Gotham City, and all across the city people have taken time out of their busy schedules to spend time with loved ones. But Dick Grayson has found himself in the midst of a dilemma: How can he take time off when crime never sleeps? And how can he spend time with loved ones when he has pushed them all away? An answer, in the form of a random encounter with a lost soul—and kindred spirit—awaits him.

1. So Dick is in Gotham. So probably directly after Joker War
2. I thought he already reconciled with his loved ones a.k.a Babs and Bat-Family?
3. Please don't tell me it's another plot of Dick getting new lover. After last issue I feel sorry for Bea, sure she maybe the only one in the world who loves Ric unlike us, but she still stay on his side and truly watch over him, unlike a certain billionare who just said that he always watch over him like it will change something.

----------


## Light of Justice

> I must confess, it is satisfying. Im not a King hater. I loved some of his works, Grayson first of all, bt HIC should be forgotten for good.
> Williamson on Titans? mmh it could be interesting.


HIC and City of Bane are one of the worst stories I've ever read. Enjoyed his Grayson and Robin War though

----------


## Avi

I don't like the vibe of: "And how can he spend time with loved ones when he has pushed them all away?" If that is still about Ric, then, well. Who pushed who away?
I too hope that a kindred spirit is not a love interest. I'd love it to be Alfred? By the power of reboot shenanigans, or maybe Damian? But why am I even hoping?

"Dark Nights: Death Metal: The Last Stories of the DC Universe" also seems promising. I hope the anthology actually focuses on the Titans.

----------


## Drako

He is in a lot of covers of December solicitations. Some look promising.

His actual book does look like a final issue, sounds like is buying time for the new stuff. And 78 is not a bad number to start with a new creative team.

----------


## Godlike13

Sounds very generic.

----------


## Restingvoice

b4o7rzfSEG5LXKGwixtm4M.jpg

Well, it looks like despite planning to betray them, the Legion of Doom that Nightwing's League will free will join them in the final battle anyway, because what are you gonna do, fight each other while Perpetua Who Laughs still around?

----------


## Pohzee

Did Dick get a redesign in Death Metal? Pointy eagle instead of beaked, slightly different gloves, etc.

----------


## Drako

The user wafflecopter13 on reddit made a bunch of redesigns for that Batman #99 variant cover by Jorge Jimenez. Check out the other ones here!

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...twing_drawing/

----------


## Frontier

> The user wafflecopter13 on reddit made a bunch of redesigns for that Batman #99 variant cover by Jorge Jimenez. Check out the other ones here!
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...twing_drawing/


The circles around his arms look new? That's all I'm seeing.

----------


## Drako

> The circles around his arms look new? That's all I'm seeing.


This one is just the pre-new 52 design, but he made others that are in the link.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, that new cover looks like it is basically setting up a relaunch. We've thought that for a while so it isn't a surprise, but I guess we don't really know if Dick will even keep his solo. It is the kind of cover that they tend to use for a final issue even if this isn't listed as one. The whole solicit was kind of generic and not really indicative of anything really. DC's continuity is such a mess that I don't really have any hope that it will make more sense after Death Metal, so I don't really know what to expect. Part of me wishes there would be another big reboot, but every new reboot tends to be worse and worse for Dick, so it probably wouldn't be the best.

----------


## OBrianTallent

Maybe with Mark Waid back at DC we will get him on Nightwing instead of a super book...hey, I know. But let me dream.

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, that new cover looks like it is basically setting up a relaunch. We've thought that for a while so it isn't a surprise, but I guess we don't really know if Dick will even keep his solo. It is the kind of cover that they tend to use for a final issue even if this isn't listed as one. The whole solicit was kind of generic and not really indicative of anything really. DC's continuity is such a mess that I don't really have any hope that it will make more sense after Death Metal, so I don't really know what to expect. Part of me wishes there would be another big reboot, but every new reboot tends to be worse and worse for Dick, so it probably wouldn't be the best.


I'm hoping we get some solid news this weekend at the fandome. I mean, at bare minimum I want to know whether he's even going to have a solo after the culling. I'd really like to know who the creators are if his book survives, and what the general direction/premise will be.

It's probably still too early for us to learn much of DC/AT&T's plans; the shakeups likely aren't settled enough for DC to have a ton they can talk about yet. But I mostly just want to know the book is safe, and not getting bottom of the barrel creators.

----------


## WonderNight

What's the point of a relaunch if they will just continue to do the same things they're doing now. When they relaunch will he not be in bludhaven, with the titans, will they won't they with babs or star, treated like a sidekick? But the relaunch isn't for nightwing so I get it.

----------


## Godlike13

On that same note, what is the point of bringing Dick back if they are just gonna have him do the same things as Ric under the same writer as Ric. Answer is there is none, they are just desperate and trying to do what they can with the little means they are willing to afford the character. Its the same reason Ric existed in the first place. The felt they had to do something, so they did, but couldn't afford to take the time to actually think it trough and actually execute it properly.

----------


## Pohzee

There's clearly some plans for the Titans in the works

----------


## Ascended

Has there been any word on the book yet this fandome?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Has there been any word on the book yet this fandome?


Nah this fandome was pointless 


So 2021 we get to try this again
Having Nightwing in animation, the comics and live action
Hopefully DC will let him be for a year

----------


## Avengers1986

Has Tom king ever revealed if he would have brought dick grayson back before Batman 100 had he stayed on the title?  Im surprised he didnt wrap up the Ric/Dick story before leaving or maybe he told Tynion when to and how he would have restored him.

----------


## Konja7

> Has Tom king ever revealed if he would have brought dick grayson back before Batman 100 had he stayed on the title?  Im surprised he didnt wrap up the Ric/Dick story before leaving or maybe he told Tynion when to and how he would have restored him.


The only plan of Tom King for Dick was to shot him.

He doesn't have any plan or involvement about what to do with Dick after that.

Tom King was pretty fine with DC using Zatanna to cure Dick, since he doesn't need Dick anymore. He just needed Dick to be shot to affect Bruce.

It is DC who decided they want the shot to have consequences.

----------


## Pohzee

He wanted Dick back for City of Bane. Bone-headed move on his part to have a shock value moment without thinking out the consequences.

----------


## Godlike13

He screwed Percy but to be fair Ric shouldn't have been as bad as it actually turned out. It took a special kind of incompetency to have it turn out like it did. At worse it should have been a mediocre amnesia story. What they did though, and the creators they got to do it, they took it to another level of awful and lazy. Blatantly regurgitating recently failed ideas like We Are Robin, going to the lowest performing creators who don't generate and have a reputation for screwing up franchises (among other things), and letting it continue for two years despite its reception and its downward trend into new lows. I don't think anyone would have thought shooting him in the head would snowball into that.

----------


## Claude

> He wanted Dick back for City of Bane. Bone-headed move on his part to have a shock value moment without thinking out the consequences.


Yeah, he mentioned wanting to use the Robins more in his run but not being allowed.

----------


## Denirac

> Yeah, he mentioned wanting to use the Robins more in his run but not being allowed.


Yeah, But it might be a good thing or they could have gotten Shock Value bullets in the head too...

----------


## Flash Gordon

So, Jurgens is still on NIGHTWING?

----------


## L.H.

Jurgens said he was going to do a couple of issues after #75, before leaving the book to a new creative team. Probably we will get a new writer in issue #78.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> There's clearly some plans for the Titans in the works


Tv show or comics wise?
I did a quick Google search but nothing jumped out at me for the latter. I could use some good news though.

----------


## Flash Gordon

> Jurgens said he was going to do a couple of issues after #75, before leaving the book to a new creative team. Probably we will get a new writer in issue #78.


Man, they should just cancel the book and relaunch it in January with a new #1.

----------


## cc008

> Man, they should just cancel the book and relaunch it in January with a new #1.


Isn't that the general idea? I honestly don't know what DC is doing anymore lol

----------


## Pohzee

> Tv show or comics wise?
> I did a quick Google search but nothing jumped out at me for the latter. I could use some good news though.


With Dick, Starfire, and Cyborg taking center stage in Justice League, Donna and Gar popping up in Teen Titans, and the Tula Lotay variant with the New Teen Titans together on the Death Metal ties ins, it's certain that we're headed for a reunion

----------


## Rac7d*

> With Dick, Starfire, and Cyborg taking center stage in Justice League, Donna and Gar popping up in Teen Titans, and the Tula Lotay variant with the New Teen Titans together on the Death Metal ties ins, it's certain that we're headed for a reunion


The titans are DCs X-men and need to be prioritized as such but  the given thats secondary team role to the suicide squad

----------


## Digifiend

Maybe what they need is Hickman to come over and do something after he finishes on X-Men.

----------


## Pohzee

I would pay $10 an issue for that

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> With Dick, Starfire, and Cyborg taking center stage in Justice League, Donna and Gar popping up in Teen Titans, and the Tula Lotay variant with the New Teen Titans together on the Death Metal ties ins, it's certain that we're headed for a reunion


Good to know, thanks!




> Maybe what they need is Hickman to come over and do something after he finishes on X-Men.





> I would pay $10 an issue for that


I'd be all for that. It would automatically be the best run on the title after NTT (and as it would be modern, would surpass that in many ways). 

I mentioned a while back that that Alex Ross art made me wish for a 12 part _Justice_ style series for the NTT, and now I'm really bummed that I thought of that because it is very unlikely to happen :Frown:

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

I kinda want a Nightwing/Flamebird miniseries with Dick and Bette

----------


## Ascended

> Jurgens said he was going to do a couple of issues after #75, before leaving the book to a new creative team. Probably we will get a new writer in issue #78.


I imagine Jurgens will stick around long enough to finish out the trade, rather than have new creators come in the middle of it. 

I'm just waiting to hear who the new creators will be and what they'll be doing. After all the chaos at AT&T we might get stuck with another filler run before the new plan/direction goes into effect though. 

And that's assuming Dick is enough of a priority to keep his book and actually *have* a plan put in place for him. I still maintain that AT&T would have to be dumb as rocks to not recognize Dick's potential and his already impressive larger media profile and want to capitalize on that, but you never know; DC does love to let me down.

----------


## Badou

Going back to my posts about how I wish Dick never gave up the Robin identity, I wonder if the Titans as a franchise would be better off if he never gave it up as well. Since DC constantly ages down the Titans characters to fit with whoever is the current Robin who is always stuck as a teenager. They did that with Tim and we more recently saw it with Damian too. I get they do that because Robin is the most iconic member of the team, so they try to fix everything around him, but had Dick kept the Robin identity and aged like he did with Nightwing I wonder if DC would have allowed the Titans to age more as well with him. Where they aren't constantly deaging Raven or Beast Boy, or constantly sticking characters like Starifire or now Donna on teams with teenagers. Maybe they could have made that jump into permanent adult team, but I don't know. Probably not. Since it doesn't fix the Justice League problem.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The titans are DCs X-men and need to be prioritized as such but  the given that’s secondary team role to the suicide squad


Yeah, what's with that? Suicide Squad came out of nowhere to me. It's Teen Titans with NTT crew who got a popular cartoon and another cartoon that the network spam slots on. No one outside comics talks about Suicide Squad before Harley got into the team and even after that, it's often to bash the movie.

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

> Yeah, what's with that? Suicide Squad came out of nowhere to me. It's Teen Titans with NTT crew who got a popular cartoon and another cartoon that the network spam slots on. No one outside comics talks about Suicide Squad before Harley got into the team and even after that, it's often to bash the movie.


yep. TT is vastly better than the SS

----------


## Restingvoice

This may just be for the anniversary but they just made Dick's classic cape bulletproof 
detective-comics_10273-min.jpg

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

> This may just be for the anniversary but they just made Dick's classic cape bulletproof 
> detective-comics_10273-min.jpg


cool! i like it

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> This may just be for the anniversary but they just made Dick's classic cape bulletproof 
> Attachment 100592


Is that from DC #1027?

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, it's from the preview for that issue.

----------


## L.H.

I loved JL #53, while Batman #99 was underwhelming. Hope #100 will be better for Dick and the whole Batfam, I'm kinda tired of Harley.

----------


## Godlike13

Don’t expect much from Batman #99. In fact it’s insulting. Nightwing is not Batman’s to return to Dick. Nightwing’s return has been just nothing so far. They should have left him as Ric if this is all they could afford to do. I mean they dragged Ric on even longer for that. Ugh...

----------


## Konja7

> Don’t expect much from Batman #99. In fact it’s insulting. Nightwing is not Batman’s to return to Dick. Nightwing’s return has been just nothing so far. They should have left him as Ric if this is all they could afford to do.


Yeah. As Robin or Batgirl, writers (and likely many fans) consider that Batman owns Nightwing identity too.

This is likely the worst case, since Nightwing identity wasn't created in Batman editorial.

----------


## Restingvoice

Eh I'm taking it since it means I don't have to see him wear Discount Bucky costume and it's not like he can go back to Bludhaven to get his costume from the Nightwing Rangers

Also it's so Bruce to keep his kids old costumes or make new ones when they're not looking

----------


## Godlike13

I have to give Williamson a lot props for having the balls to take shots at Dick’s book.

----------


## L.H.

I agree with Restingvoice.
We've seen Babs giving "DickyBoy" the Nightwing suit, but that was taken by Joker. Dick has no more suit around, 'cause all was taken by the "Nightwings". Bruce, of course, has a new suit for each member of his family, so I don't find It a big deal.
But I also agree with Godlike, this claimed "big return" was nothing. I hope #100 can change that. 
JL#53, instead, was exactly what I was waiting for.

----------


## Godlike13

Anyone giving Dick Nightwing back misses the point, and it not being a big deal just further misses the point. After 2 years of a Ric rejecting Nightwing, Dick reclaiming Nightwing should be a big deal. Instead it becomes just a uniform Batman gives one of his soldiers. From Talon’s bitch, to Joker’s bitch, to Batman’s bitch. It’s Dick just pulling a Nightwing suit out of his trunk in Titans Hunt all over again, but worse. It’s Batman pulling it out his ass and telling him to put it on. It’s something that should be a moment turned into nothing. And it not like they don’t know it cause the made the cover around it, yet given the issue itself it was like a cover for a different issue.

----------


## Avi

Didn't expect much from Batman #99 but also not that little. Underwhelming as always, and a near insult considering the cover. Not that covers say much these days and especially not when Dick is involved. Nightwing #74's cover was more compelling than the actuial issue too. 

I agree, that they should have given him his identity back through the Owl story. It had better memory-regaining sequences, and would have felt more natural, instead Rick-Dick just had to be dragged into an event that does absoluetly nothing for him. Maybe #100 will be better, but why should it be? The only one apart from Bruce that matters is Harley.

As for JL #53: Kendra and Dick teaming up was great, and I have hopes that Dick will be allowed to shine for a bit. The dig at Ric I could have done without. If writers don't want to deal with the fallout, I applaud that but just leave it out. I don't get and don't need an explanation for Dick's sudden change of appearance, and neither do I don't need or want a Ric mention.

----------


## Pohzee

Thanks for saving my money, what a joke. Woulda been the first time I picked up a Bat-Book in months

----------


## L.H.

> Anyone giving Dick Nightwing back misses the point, and it not being a big deal just further misses the point. After 2 years of a Ric rejecting Nightwing, Dick reclaiming Nightwing should be a big deal. Instead it becomes just a uniform Batman gives one of his soldiers. From Talons bitch, to Jokers bitch, to Batmans bitch. Its Dick just pulling a Nightwing suit out of his trunk in Titans Hunt all over again, but worse. Its Batman pulling it out his ass and telling him to put it on. Its something that should be a moment turned into nothing. And it not like they dont know it cause the made the cover around it, yet given the issue itself it was like a cover for a different issue.


Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, I was disapponted too. But, comparing with everything we had to suffer through two years, I'm fine with whatever way they want to bring him back. I don't care how Dick get his suit back, as long as he is back to himself and we can have good stories focused on Nightwing. That's why I think JL#53 is the step in the fight direction I was waiting for.

----------


## Digifiend

> Didn't expect much from Batman #99 but also not that little. Underwhelming as always,


Should've just said you wasn't whelmed.  :Smile: 

(Young Justice reference)

----------


## Badou

I'm not sure what the current canon is anymore, but Dick became Nightwing because Bruce fried him from being Robin. That is the most recent one at least. So you can act like Dick became Nightwing on his own apart from Batman, but he didn't. Bruce firing him forced Dick to become Nightwing. So it all stems from Batman just like how Robin is now Batman's to control despite it being a deeply personal identity Dick created on his own. That is just how things are.

The JL #53 issue was a bit heavy on the "Wow, look at how great the JL is. I can't wait to be there one day" stuff, but I get it is the JL's book. Plus I am still horribly confused at how old Dick was when he became Robin if he first met the JL when he looked 16 or so. The dig at Ric was really nice though and made the issue. Hopefully Dick doesn't get treated as poorly like he did in the last Metal event. Where Dick gave up all hope, wanted to leave Bruce for dead, got punched by Damian in the face, and then did nothing for the rest of the event.

----------


## Frontier

I think people are really overthinking Batman handing Dick a costume. 



> I agree, that they should have given him his identity back through the Owl story. It had better memory-regaining sequences, and would have felt more natural, instead Rick-Dick just had to be dragged into an event that does absoluetly nothing for him. Maybe #100 will be better, but why should it be? The only one apart from Bruce that matters* is Harley*.


Let that sink in.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Anyone giving Dick Nightwing back misses the point, and it not being a big deal just further misses the point. After 2 years of a Ric rejecting Nightwing, Dick reclaiming Nightwing should be a big deal. Instead it becomes just a uniform Batman gives one of his soldiers. From Talon’s bitch, to Joker’s bitch, to Batman’s bitch. It’s Dick just pulling a Nightwing suit out of his trunk in Titans Hunt all over again, but worse. It’s Batman pulling it out his ass and telling him to put it on. It’s something that should be a moment turned into nothing. And it not like they don’t know it cause the made the cover around it, yet given the issue itself it was like a cover for a different issue.


I didn't expect much from Tynion honestly but I expected better than this.

----------


## Journey

I haven't enjoyed a Dick Grayson comic since Grayson kind of sad but superspy dick was the best version for me anyway.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm not sure what the current canon is anymore, but Dick became Nightwing because Bruce fried him from being Robin. That is the most recent one at least. So you can act like Dick became Nightwing on his own apart from Batman, but he didn't. Bruce firing him forced Dick to become Nightwing. So it all stems from Batman just like how Robin is now Batman's to control despite it being a deeply personal identity Dick created on his own. That is just how things are.
> 
> The JL #53 issue was a bit heavy on the "Wow, look at how great the JL is. I can't wait to be there one day" stuff, but I get it is the JL's book. Plus I am still horribly confused at how old Dick was when he became Robin if he first met the JL when he looked 16 or so. The dig at Ric was really nice though and made the issue. Hopefully Dick doesn't get treated as poorly like he did in the last Metal event. Where Dick gave up all hope, wanted to leave Bruce for dead, got punched by Damian in the face, and then did nothing for the rest of the event.


Unless JL #53 or Jurgens run mention it since that will be the newest change, the last time I heard about his turn to Nightwing was in Grayson where they talked about how he's growing up and need space of his own. I don't remember the firing ever mentioned. 

Don't think too much about his Robin age because Snyder from what I've seen still operate squarely on New 52 continuity. He's still using 16-year-old Dick and buzzcut Bruce Wayne from Zero Year, even though King has brought back Year One and mentioned that Dick already became Robin when they met Selina in the boat.

----------


## Digifiend

Robin 80th anniversary shows the transition.

----------


## dropkickjake

Really enjoyed JL 53, but I've been out of comics for a while. What do I need to get to make sense of the world/setting?

----------


## Godlike13

The Heavy Metal event.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Robin 80th anniversary shows the transition.


Unclear canon. Rebirth has been avoiding showing Dick in scaly panties but the anniversary stories keep using it. So they're like different worlds.

----------


## CrimsonEchidna

> I think people are really overthinking Batman handing Dick a costume.


I mean, i get the disappointment. Dick's lost of identity went on for the better part of two years and the ultimate payoff for it ended up being for the resolution to get relegated to a side plot in a Joker storyline. There's a level a tone-deafness there, because even in this issue with the cover trumpeting his return, Dick is still ultimately a minor character because Harley Quinn is the second lead here.

----------


## Badou

It is a Joker story and Dick doesn't really have any connection with the Joker on any kind of deeper level. So he was always going to be a minor character in this story. From the beginning with Punchline it was always setup with Harley being the 2nd most important "hero" in it with characters like Dick just filling out the background. Although that cover with him in the Nightwing suit was kind of a bait and switch I guess. Advertising it as Dick's BIG RETURN to Nightwing after not having it in his own book after two years of awful Ric stories, but it is just Bruce handing him his suit and that is it. A big let down but not a surprise.




> Robin 80th anniversary shows the transition.


I don't think those special Anniversary issues are really considered canon. Just like how the Detective Comics #1027 had a lot of different continuity stories that don't really line up.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean, i get the disappointment. Dick's lost of identity went on for the better part of two years and the ultimate payoff for it ended up being for the resolution to get relegated to a side plot in a Joker storyline. There's a level a tone-deafness there, because even in this issue with the cover trumpeting his return, Dick is still ultimately a minor character because Harley Quinn is the second lead here.


I mean, I totally get wanting Dick's return to happen more on his own terms and wanting him to play a bigger role, but Batman handing him a costume doesn't equate to Batman "owning" Nightwing or giving Dick permission to be Nightwing to me. 

The Harley stuff just irritates the heck out of me. She really has no business being as big a part of this story as she is, and she's the last person who should be lecturing Batman about killing Joker. Jason is literally in the story  :Mad: !!!



> I don't think those special Anniversary issues are really considered canon. Just like how the Detective Comics #1027 had a lot of different continuity stories that don't really line up.


Especially the one that had the 2003 cartoon Titans...for some reason.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh as for me the way Nightwing returns with a thud is... after 2 years of Ric it's just... pretty much what I expected. They miss a big comeback at least three times, so by now, it's just 'eh sure'. I maybe wrong but I think that _was_ my reaction when it was announced. Not "yay" not "finally" but "eh whatevs" 
The moment's gone. Do whatever you want. You already did whatever you want. It will take more than that to make me look.

----------


## Digifiend

> I mean, I totally get wanting Dick's return to happen more on his own terms and wanting him to play a bigger role, but Batman handing him a costume doesn't equate to Batman "owning" Nightwing or giving Dick permission to be Nightwing to me. 
> 
> The Harley stuff just irritates the heck out of me. She really has no business being as big a part of this story as she is, and she's the last person who should be lecturing Batman about killing Joker. Jason is literally in the story !!!
> 
> Especially the one that had the 2003 cartoon Titans...for some reason.


That same story had a 22 year timeline and the Titans were in year 4, which would make them too old. Even if they were 16 in that appearance, by the end of the story they'd be 34, which is at least five years older than they should be.

----------


## Digifiend

> I don't think those special Anniversary issues are really considered canon. Just like how the Detective Comics #1027 had a lot of different continuity stories that don't really line up.


A lot of them are just set in the past, not as many are non-canon as it seems. Bendis's story seems to be set during or immediately after Tynion's Tec Rebirth run, considering the costumes - why make that effort if it wasn't meant to be canon? Using the current costumes would've placed it out of continuity due to Dick only just coming back and Damian currently not being Robin. In the Robin special, it's clear that the Tim Drake stories take place late in his Robin series and just before Tec Rebirth, and one of Dick's stories was set during the 1999 Titans series. Damian had a story that directly led into what just happened in Teen Titans, the last story in Tec #1027 was also definitely canon for similar reasons. Joker's anniversary special included Punchline's origin. That Nightwing story I mentioned takes place just before he took the Nightwing mantle in Tales of the Teen Titans. It was supposed to be an update for why he stopped being Robin, the original version having not been canon since Crisis on Infinite Earths since that event resulted in Jason Todd getting rebooted.

----------


## Claude

> The JL #53 issue was a bit heavy on the "Wow, look at how great the JL is. I can't wait to be there one day" stuff, but I get it is the JL's book.


I quite like that that's his view as a kid, and then adult Nightwing is emphatic a couple of times later that he's *not* Justice League. Given the characters coming back in later issues, and the fact he's now against a Titan, presumably Williamson is building to a definitive "Dick is a Titan and not Justice League In Waiting thing". Which would be tricky to make look like a triumph rather than a limit of ambition, but good luck to him! 

Also, this tie-in now calling back to No Justice as part of the big event Finale to Snyder's Justice League just makes it seem even odder that Nightwing was replaced by Green Arrow at the last minute in that series - who then went on to do, as I understand it, nothing. 

(Or it would be, if anyone remembered No Justice.)

----------


## Ascended

I'm not reading Tynion's Batman (I'll grab the trades maybe) so I haven't even read any of this, but I gotta agree with the "meh, whatever, f*ck off* sentiment. Two years of crap Ric stories, a return that's just a subplot in someone else's book.....DC is gonna have to do better than that for my money.

The second we have a proper Nightwing title with a quality creative team, I will be all over that. Might even buy two copies if the writer and artist aren't the bottom of the creative barrel. But I've refused to support Ric and I'll be damned if I'll support equally low effort just because Dick's got his name back.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'm not reading Tynion's Batman (I'll grab the trades maybe) so I haven't even read any of this, but I gotta agree with the "meh, whatever, f*ck off* sentiment. Two years of crap Ric stories, a return that's just a subplot in someone else's book.....DC is gonna have to do better than that for my money.
> 
> The second we have a proper Nightwing title with a quality creative team, I will be all over that. Might even buy two copies if the writer and artist aren't the bottom of the creative barrel. But I've refused to support Ric and I'll be damned if I'll support equally low effort just because Dick's got his name back.


Exactly my thoughts. I haven't bought anything beyond the first issue of this Ric mess a year ago. I won't buy the Joker War tie ins or any of the issues following. I won't buy another half-asses creative team either. I will support issues like JL #53 though even though I'm not bothering with any of the rest of that event.

----------


## Restingvoice

They're dancing

tumblr_ee44716f7477ca50b5be1b8301c561a0_457f5365_640.jpg

DC #1027

----------


## dropkickjake

> I have to give Williamson a lot props for having the balls to take shots at Dicks book.





> I'm not reading Tynion's Batman (I'll grab the trades maybe) so I haven't even read any of this, but I gotta agree with the "meh, whatever, f*ck off* sentiment. Two years of crap Ric stories, a return that's just a subplot in someone else's book.....DC is gonna have to do better than that for my money.
> 
> The second we have a proper Nightwing title with a quality creative team, I will be all over that. Might even buy two copies if the writer and artist aren't the bottom of the creative barrel. But I've refused to support Ric and I'll be damned if I'll support equally low effort just because Dick's got his name back.


Yeah. Whole thing is a mess and after looking through Batman 99, absolutely not worth buying. Excitedly hopeful for Williams JL arc though. 




> As for JL #53: Kendra and Dick teaming up was great, and I have hopes that Dick will be allowed to shine for a bit. The dig at Ric I could have done without. If writers don't want to deal with the fallout, I applaud that but just leave it out. I don't get and don't need an explanation for Dick's sudden change of appearance, and neither do I don't need or want a Ric mention.


I appreciated the Ric references, for two reasons. 1) It informed me that I was in fact reading main universerse Dick Grayson. 2) It informed me that the creator knows about that whole story line and sees it with a bit of contempt, so it seems like he won't be continuing on with it. It felt like a "Yes, this is main universe Dick Grayson. But also, this is going to be DICK Grayson."

----------


## Digifiend

Doesn't the solicit specifically say Ric will come up next issue - as Nightwing meets Cyborg and Starfire and they catch up on the last couple of years?

----------


## Godlike13

Williamson displayed an awareness Ric's writers seem to lack. Frustratingly so. It's better to call it out for what it is then ignorantly just pretend it isn't. If Ric is to be referenced, it should be referenced as a time of failure and low quality. Cause that is what it was. It was low point is pretty much every regard.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope Ric is retconed out. You guys think with Dan gone we will get a better writer?

----------


## Pohzee

What I find so odd about Tynion's unglamorous return for Dick is that he clearly thinks the character is important. Both of his features on landmark anniversary issues have had Dick as Robin. One of them was focused on the significance of his character to the mythos

----------


## Godlike13

> I hope Ric is retconed out. You guys think with Dan gone we will get a better writer?


It doesn't need to be retconed out as they didn't really do anything with Ric, except stubbornly waste 2 years on a direction no one liked and didn't go anywhere. But its not like they changed his history or had him do anything that would require a retcon. Beyond the creation of Ric, the actual stories and ideas with Ric were very safe and generic. Making Ric all the more dumb.

----------


## Ascended

> I hope Ric is retconed out. You guys think with Dan gone we will get a better writer?


No need for a retcon. This will just be "the time Dick had a head wound and lost his memory, then got screwed with by the Court until he got his memory back." 

It's just a bad storyline. Granted, it's probably the worst Dick has ever been, his absolute lowest point from both a character and quality point of view, but in the end it's just a bad story and nothing more. If we retconned every bad story DC ever made we would have like, three stories left and two of them would be out of continuity.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Besides, retcons and reboots are never good ideas. They don't fix problems, they only add to them.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Well it seems this whole Ric story isn't done has the next solicit for Nightwing is if he wants this.




> In the wake of "The Joker War," Nightwing is back—but is he back for good? And does he remember Bea? With the help of Batman, Batgirl, his Teen Titans friends, and even Alfred, Nightwing must decide for himself which path to take. Then, when KGBeast discovers Nightwing is still alive, his street credibility is on the line if he doesn’t go to finish the job he started when he tried to kill Nightwing…and missed! Nightwing better watch his back is he wants to be back for good!

----------


## Claude

> Well it seems this whole Ric story isn't done has the next solicit for Nightwing is if he wants this.


I said it at the time and I'll say it again, that solicit is not written to a professional standard. Symptomatic of the whole thing.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s just more of Jurgans repeating the same shit. Gotham villain comes to Bludhaven, dangles Bea as bait, generic traditional comic stuff ensues. Jurgans is going through same beats like he has been. Regardless what Dick is called. It’s quick and easy, and thats what he on the book for. It won’t be over till he is gone. And even then who knows what’s in store.

----------


## Konja7

Maybe it is because I don't read enough about New Teen Titans, but it seems Dick doesn't have so much focus there. 

Even Dick becoming Nightwing, it just happened near of the end of Judas Contract (and Dick was absent a good part of the story). 

Is there an arc in NTT that focus mainly on Dick?

----------


## Pohzee

The FBI/Vigilante arcs pretty soon before the Judas Contract were very much Dick-centric. The Outsiders crossover had some important beats also. And he had a good showing in Who is Donna Troy?

----------


## AmiMizuno

What do you guys think?

https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-joker-...al-robin-king/

----------


## Restingvoice

I appreciate the domino mask is bigger

tumblr_18f04620a0011dd24f92d983b6a5d636_3e189e1c_640.jpg

DC #1027

----------


## Pohzee

It looks kinda like the TNA mask. Which kinda looks like Hal's mask but I know some people that prefer that look

----------


## Digifiend

> Well it seems this whole Ric story isn't done has the next solicit for Nightwing is if he wants this.


That's just mop up, tying up loose ends.

I guess we've seen the last of the four fake Nightwings now.

----------


## cc008

> That's just mop up, tying up loose ends.
> 
> I guess we've seen the last of the four fake Nightwings now.


Yeah, I'd expect some clean up as well. If you're gonna spend that much time telling the story, at least be responsible enough to follow up with some fall out stuff.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It looks kinda like the TNA mask. Which kinda looks like Hal's mask but I know some people that prefer that look


It reminds me of Green hornet and Kato

----------


## AmiMizuno

A little off the rails but when did Dick Grayson become the owner of Haley Circus

----------


## Pohzee

> That's just mop up, tying up loose ends.
> 
> I guess we've seen the last of the four fake Nightwings now.


I think the one thing we really need to close this thing out is for Dick to process all of this at the Sanctuary!

----------


## Ascended

> A little off the rails but when did Dick Grayson become the owner of Haley Circus


Beginning of the New52. Not sure which issue exactly....think it might've been a final page drop in issue 1, but it was definitely in effect by the end of issue 3 if memory serves me right.




> I think the one thing we really need to close this thing out is for Dick to process all of this at the Sanctuary!


....dude. Why would you even say that? Are you *trying* to curse us? 2020 is listening!

----------


## AmiMizuno

Should he have kept the Circus? 

I mean wondering this for a while. IF they ever do an elsewhere story with Dick having kids again should Nightwing used by  one kid uses or that's something that can never be touched

----------


## Restingvoice

> A little off the rails but when did Dick Grayson become the owner of Haley Circus


In Post Crisis somewhere during the Bludhaven era
In New 52 he was given the deed in issue #2

----------


## WonderNight

> What do you guys think?
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nightwing-joker-...al-robin-king/


Nightwing. Batman's ultimate sidekick! Sounds about right  :Frown:

----------


## Restingvoice

What comes before The Gauntlet?

----------


## Pohzee

> What comes before The Gauntlet?


Pick your Robin origin of choice: I can't think of any stories between then and his first time out where he is training in the cave. Mine is Dark Victory

----------


## Restingvoice

> Pick your Robin origin of choice: I can't think of any stories between then and his first time out where he is training in the cave. Mine is Dark Victory


Which one sent him to the foster home of bullied boys before being taken to the Manor?

----------


## Pohzee

Not familiar with that one I don't think

----------


## L.H.

> Which one sent him to the foster home of bullied boys before being taken to the Manor?


Robin Annual #4.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay dude to issues. How good should his fighting skills. I mean Jay has almost killed him and Cassie too. So what should be Dick's fighting skills?

----------


## Drako

> Okay dude to issues. How good should his fighting skills. I mean Jay *has almost killed him* and Cassie too. So what should be Dick's fighting skills?


Where? I don't remember this ever happening.

----------


## Restingvoice

There are many variables that go into a fight but to make it short, you just have to remember that he's an acrobat prodigy trained by Batman and has 10-15-20 years of experience dealing with mobsters, martial artists, metahumans, and the supernatural with the necessary intelligence and improvisation that's needed in such situations.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dick also made Tim and Jason look like chumps with all this Joker War nonsense lol.

When DC remembers what it means to be a Titan, and what Dick being a Titan has to mean for his capabilities, you'll see just how far above most other street-level characters he is (well, was, and only was until DC remembers). Obviously, Lady Shiva and Cass are notable exceptions for purely fighting skill.

----------


## Godlike13

Huh? Dick did nothing in Joker War. Babs literally beat him with her hands behind her back.

----------


## Aahz

> In Post Crisis somewhere during the Bludhaven era
> In New 52 he was given the deed in issue #2


I'm pretty sure he allready bought in "A Lonley place of Dying" (or at least around that time).




> Dick also made Tim and Jason look like chumps with all this Joker War nonsense lol.


Which seems really nonsensically if you look how much better Barbara did against him.

To the original question I think Dick, Bruce and Jason should be on pretty similar level at this point when it comes to fighting skills.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm pretty sure he allready bought in "A Lonley place of Dying" (or at least around that time).
> 
> Which seems really nonsensically if you look how much better Barbara did against him.
> 
> To the original question I think Dick, Bruce and Jason should be on pretty similar level at this point when it comes to fighting skills.


Oh I thought he was just visiting

DC doesn't allow Nightwing to beat up Babs. If there's a fight or interaction, Babs tends to be depicted as the smarter, wiser, better one. Whether it's serious or comedic. 

Even though when it comes to not beating up, Dick has always been depicted as faster and stealthier than Babs.

You know what... make that all of his main love interest. Starfire in the TT movie, Helena in comics...

It may be an abuse thing, male on the female is no, female on the male is funny or okay, it may be the romance trope of foolish male, it maybe a branding thing

----------


## Ascended

In terms of raw combat prowess, I figure Dick has to rank up there pretty damn high. Cass Cain, Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, those people are all better fighters than he is and I'd entertain the argument that so is Black Canary, and there's probably a few others out there I'm forgetting about who might surpass Dick in terms of raw fighting ability. 

But Dick is likely in the Top 10 greatest fighters on earth. He's in the prime of life, is one of the most naturally gifted athletes in the world, has been trained by not only Bruce but also Donna, Kori, and I forget who else, giving him access to fighting styles unknown to most humans, and Dick has over a decade of active experience under his belt but hasn't started physically slowing down yet.

Among the Bats I figure Dick is better than anyone except Cass. But that's not taking into account stuff like Azreal's subconscious programming, which makes him virtually super-human, or the fact that Bruce taught Dick much of what he knows, which gives Bruce an advantage. But I figure if you put Dick in a room with the other Bats, and nobody had any tools or gadgets, Dick has pretty good odds of taking down everyone but Cass, and Cass Cain is a gods damn monster people thought was superhuman because she's so damn good at fighting.

----------


## Digifiend

Cass may not be a meta, but she does have a superpower - her ability to predict opponents' movements. She reads body language. That's why she's such a good fighter.

----------


## AmiMizuno

For you guys which comic origin do you like better? Bruce firing him or quitting? I don't understand Why Dc didn't keep him quitting

----------


## Restingvoice

> For you guys which comic origin do you like better? Bruce firing him or quitting? I don't understand Why Dc didn't keep him quitting


Quitting without grudge, of course, just him realizing he needs a grown-up identity

Honestly, I don't know what they're using right now

----------


## Badou

> Cass may not be a meta, but she does have a superpower - her ability to predict opponents' movements. She reads body language. That's why she's such a good fighter.


They gave Dick that ability too in the New 52 and Cass fans got upset by it because it made her less special from what I remember. It was a long time ago now so I can't remember it clearly. 




> For you guys which comic origin do you like better? Bruce firing him or quitting? I don't understand Why Dc didn't keep him quitting


Probably neither. I don't think there has been a great Nightwing origin story that felt defining.

----------


## Restingvoice

> They gave Dick that ability too in the New 52 and Cass fans got upset by it because it made her less special from what I remember. It was a long time ago now so I can't remember it clearly.


Yeah, they did, and they did get upset, but the ability ended up only being used in about 2 issues or so

----------


## Badou

> Yeah, they did, and they did get upset, but the ability ended up only being used in about 2 issues or so


Was it when he was fighting Shiva? Been so long since I read that now. 

I think they gave it to him to make up for his lost history as a way to keep his abilities at a good level. Since he was 16 now and was only with Bruce for under 2 years before he left.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Was it when he was fighting Shiva? Been so long since I read that now. 
> 
> I think they gave it to him to make up for his lost history as a way to keep his abilities at a good level. Since he was 16 now and was only with Bruce for under 2 years before he left.


Nah. Just to recognize Bruce Wayne as Batman and win at a card game to get information ^^

----------


## Aahz

> Oh I thought he was just visiting


Just rechecked it, he became co-owner in New Teen Titans #60.

----------


## Konja7

> They gave Dick that ability too in the New 52 and Cass fans got upset by it because it made her less special from what I remember. It was a long time ago now so I can't remember it clearly.


I've never understand why Cass fans are so angry. There was a lot more on Cass than her ability to predict oponent's movement. 

Although I guess that's why so many Dick fans were angry that Tim was an athletic gymnast. 


It is funny, many fans are angry that the Batfamily characters are reduced to their abilities, but they are also angry if other members of the Batfamily have similar abilities.

----------


## Godlike13

They gave Dick the ability to read people along the lines a poker player being able to read a person, vs Cass were its more of a precondition superpower. Its whatever. On one hand it makes sense for an aerialist to be ability to anticipate a body's movement, and quite frankly to a degree its part of basic fighting, but again its whatever. Its world building and shit to do that Dick needed more so then feats or what have you. The introduction of Shiva into his origin was awful though. There are a ton of characters better suited for that role then boring Shiva, but Shiva had nothing else going on so they had to force her somewhere. Its sucked and the resulting DeFalco story was trash. Non of that that was for Dick's benefit.

As to Dick fans being angry that Tim was an athletic gymnast, remember he was also the new creator of the Teen Titans. This is more then simply stealing an ability, an ability they all already do to a degree, they tore Dick's entire Titans history away form him and his mythos to try and insert it into Tim. To try and keep Tim and his relevant in a new younger world they quite frankly did not fit, while whatever remnants of Dick's Titans that were left were given to Jason to help fill out his series. Making Tim an Olympic gymnast was just a further twist of the knife during the larger pillaging that was going on.

----------


## Konja7

> They gave Dick the ability to read people along the lines a poker player being able to read a person, vs Cass were its more of a precondition superpower. Its whatever. On one hand it makes sense for an aerialist to be ability to anticipate a body's movement, and quite frankly to a degree its part of basic fighting, but again its whatever. Its world building and shit to do that Dick needed more so then feats or what have you. The introduction of Shiva into his origin was awful though. There are a ton of characters better suited for that role then boring Shiva, but Shiva had nothing else going on so they had to force her somewhere. Its sucked and the resulting DeFalco story was trash. Non of that that was for Dick's benefit.
> 
> As to Dick fans being angry that Tim was an athletic gymnast, remember he was also the new creator of the Teen Titans. This is more then simply stealing an ability, an ability they all already do to a degree, they tore Dick's entire Titans history away form him and his mythos to try and insert it into Tim. To try and keep Tim and his relevant in a new younger world they quite frankly did not fit, while whatever remnants of Dick's Titans were left were given to Jason to help fill out his series. Making Tim an Olympic gymnast was just a further twist of the knife during the larger pillaging that was going on.


I don't exactly remember, do we know that Dick lost his Teen Titans group when we heard about Tim as a gymnast?

At the beginning of New52, Dick's Titans still existed (likely due to miscommunicatiom from DC side). It was lated established that Tim's Teen Titans was the first. I don't exactly remember if we already know that when we heard about Tim as a gymanst.

----------


## Godlike13

Zero Month was a year after the New 52, readers knew what was what by then. Whatever makeshift group Lobdell tried to concoct with Dick, Roy, Kory, and Dustin was dropped by then. Dick's TTs and NTTs was clearly gone for the most part, along with most of that generation, and whatever remnants that were left Dick could not touch. Not only that whatever existed in their place was left to the whims of Lobdell, Tim and Jason's current writer, and not Dick's own creator. Its part of why i felt for Higgins and the hand he was dealt. He had to lean so hard into Batman and Dick's Hailey's history cause he had no influence on anything else with Dick, and could touch a huge part of what created Nightwing.

----------


## Digifiend

> I've never understand why Cass fans are so angry. There was a lot more on Cass than her ability to predict oponent's movement.


Cass had also been completely erased from continuity at the time.

----------


## Restingvoice

I also remember Tim fans got angry because Dick is able to recognize Bruce as Batman because that's supposed to be Tim's thing 

It's a Batfam skill and anger merry-go-round ^^

----------


## WonderNight

> I also remember Tim fans got angry because Dick is able to recognize Bruce as Batman because that's supposed to be Tim's thing 
> 
> It's a Batfam skill and anger merry-go-round ^^


That's why you don't make so many redundant characters in the first place.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's why you don't make so many redundant characters in the first place.


Its just a matter of time if Tim does not find his own identity. Their gonna realize a third white Robin is not necessary. Duke should be transitioning soon.

----------


## dropkickjake

tbf, I wasn't happy with giving "cass's" ability to Dick at all. It just felt like a cheap make up call for giving so much of Dick's backstory and relationships to Tim and Jason.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I really feel the Batfam is way too big. I also feel due to Dick’s time and his own turn with the Titans. He should be the best fighter on Batfam. That they just want Dick to look bad like they always do

----------


## Godlike13

I’d rather Dick had more good fights, more so then be the best fighter. Give me memorable fight scenes over karate chopping Shiva or what have you.

----------


## Digifiend

> It’s just a matter of time if Tim does not find his own identity. Their gonna realize a third white Robin is not necessary. Duke should be transitioning soon.


No he shouldn't. He started in We Are Robin, leading a gang of unofficial Robins. When he officially joined the Bat family, he decided he should have a unique identity instead, and became The Signal. Becoming a Robin would be a backward step for him.

----------


## Badou

I think Snyder wanted Duke to be Robin, but he just couldn't do it because of Damian. I feel like there was a flashforward in his run where Duke was shown as Robin, or maybe it was another black Robin. I know in that Future's End story he was Robin there. It's just I don't think the Signal is ever going to catch on with how crowded the Batman family and DC's collection of young heroes are now. There is just no room for him and with long form superhero comics being even more niche than ever before I don't know if there is an audience to support him enough to keep him around. It really feels like DC stretched the Robin identity out too much and now these group of characters are kind of cannibalizing each other for pieces of history, stories and relevance where it gets frustrating for their fans. 

We've been seeing Tim struggle to find an identity and direction after moving on from Robin for a decade now. It's been a mess in my opinion. Having him lead young hero teams is the only thing that has been keeping him around it feels like, but none of those teams have been that successful. The recent Young Justice book that got a big push completely flopped. I have been wondering if DC will pull a Wally West or a Helena Bertinelli and just race swap Tim to be black to fill that black hero role DC desperately wants in Gotham, but doing that would pretty much mean the death of characters like Duke probably. Which goes back to my point about how these characters are cannibalizing each other. 

I really just wonder what these kind of comics will be like 5-10 years from now. I get that creators will still want to create new characters because it is better for them financially to do so, it is one reason why you are seeing Tynion create a bunch of new characters in his run, but it feels like we are already at the breaking point with how many characters these kind of comics can realistically support.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I think Snyder wanted Duke to be Robin, but he just couldn't do it because of Damian. I feel like there was a flashforward in his run where Duke was shown as Robin, or maybe it was another black Robin. I know in that Future's End story he was Robin there. It's just I don't think the Signal is ever going to catch on with how crowded the Batman family and DC's collection of young heroes are now. There is just no room for him and with long form superhero comics being even more niche than ever before I don't know if there is an audience to support him enough to keep him around. It really feels like DC stretched the Robin identity out too much and now these group of characters are kind of cannibalizing each other for pieces of history, stories and relevance where it gets frustrating for their fans. 
> 
> We've been seeing Tim struggle to find an identity and direction after moving on from Robin for a decade now. It's been a mess in my opinion. Having him lead young hero teams is the only thing that has been keeping him around it feels like, but none of those teams have been that successful. The recent Young Justice book that got a big push completely flopped. I have been wondering if DC will pull a Wally West or a Helena Bertinelli and just race swap Tim to be black to fill that black hero role DC desperately wants in Gotham, but doing that would pretty much mean the death of characters like Duke probably. Which goes back to my point about how these characters are cannibalizing each other. 
> 
> I really just wonder what these kind of comics will be like 5-10 years from now. I get that creators will still want to create new characters because it is better for them financially to do so, it is one reason why you are seeing Tynion create a bunch of new characters in his run, but it feels like we are already at the breaking point with how many characters these kind of comics can realistically support.


His first black Robin was right before he created Duke. 
Duke already caught on with fandom but the number of fans has only been enough to support a mini and an ensemble title. 

The rest of the fans that want to support him already have their own faves before Duke and not enough money, not to mention we each got our own specific beef with DC with how our main faves are treated so automatically they're gonna take priority

Right now he's still better than most because the creator and his friends want to support him so he'll keep coming back in one-shots, minis, or team books to keep, hopefully, attracting new audience

----------


## Rac7d*

> No he shouldn't. He started in We Are Robin, leading a gang of unofficial Robins. When he officially joined the Bat family, he decided he should have a unique identity instead, and became The Signal. Becoming a Robin would be a backward step for him.


Its just inevitable

----------


## Avi

I just re-read some of the pre-N52 Nightwing Issues, and the Justice Society helping Dick move from New York back to Gotham has always stuck with me because it's such a nice addition. 
So, I was wondering if there are any other Issue in which Dick interacts with them in New Earth continuity?

----------


## Digifiend

I'd be surprised if not, because the 1999 Titans team had a future JSAer in the roster. The Society should be linked to Nightwing through Jesse Quick.

----------


## Avi

Ah, thank you. That's a starting point that's already paid off.  :Big Grin:

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm curious if NIghwing were to get a team-up book who would you want to see? I would like to see some lesser-known heroes.  I would love to see Diana and Dick team up they don't get many scenes together.

----------


## WonderNight

Dick and Diana are my 2 favs so I'd love for them to team up alot more. Also more superman would be great also.but there's so many character's dick could have team ups with like wally and cyborg or characters who are stuck in limbo like vixen or vibe.

I still believe the Nightwing solo should be about dick's adventures across the dcu with regular team ups with others heroes.

----------


## Avi

Diana and Dick would be cool. I think writers wouldn't try to make one of them better than the other and I think they could easily go into a spy angle with them again. 

Midnighter and Nightwing would be great to. I enjoyed their "Nemesister" angle and I liked what Orlando did with their friendship in Midnighter.

Nightwing and Robin (Damian, of course), which is a no-brainer to a lot of people, I think. (btw... Dick still hasn't been introduced to Jon, right?)

Nightwing and Batman. Yes, yes I'm going there. I think interactions between them are great. Gotham Nights #5 made me aware of that recently again. I just miss stories that have them teaming up, also Batman Crossovers could be dumped into a team book instead of interfering with a Nightwing mainbook.

----------


## Godlike13

More Deadman and Nightwing please.

----------


## Claude

> Nightwing and Batman. Yes, yes I'm going there. I think interactions between them are great. Gotham Nights #5 made me aware of that recently again. I just miss stories that have them teaming up, also Batman Crossovers could be dumped into a team book instead of interfering with a Nightwing mainbook.


That's a very good point, especially about crossovers. Dick and Bruce have a very strong bond and a long history, and they absolutely should hang out - the problem is that a Dick solo isn't a great place for that. 

(Also, historically, Bruce's impact has often been felt in a negative way and in his absence from the page.)

Call it The Dynamic Duo, and make it the book for the bigger, more colourful Batman Universe style adventures.

----------


## Robanker

> More Deadman and Nightwing please.


I really love the idea that even in death, Boston can't figure out how to do the quadruple somersault. He'd possess Dick to rehearse it and get it down and even then he just won't be able to. "Son of a bitch makes this look so damn easy! WHY!"

And then they bond over funnel cake.


I'm partial to launching a new volume of Brave and the Bold with Nightwing as the anchor, so lots of team-ups!

Some basic, obvious ones: Tim, Oracle, Starfire, (bonus points if neither really play into the ship), Damien, Wally and Donna

But some fun other ones would be: Power Girl, Superman, Black Lightning, Deadman, Zatanna, Constantine (they would haaaate each other), Green Arrow and Black Canary.

And because Dick is so well-connected, I'd do a begrudging villain team-up with one of the less heinous ones, like a Flash rogue or Giganta or something.

I'd bring Didio in to write Nightwing/Wally during their next bad future issue (because we know it's a matter of time) just for the pure schadenfreude. It would hurt me as much as anyone else, but knowing it's just some tongue-in-cheek disposable tie-in that means nothing I'd probably just enjoy it like popcorn during a bad movie.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Nightwing and Batman. Yes, yes I'm going there. I think interactions between them are great. Gotham Nights #5 made me aware of that recently again. I just miss stories that have them teaming up, also Batman Crossovers could be dumped into a team book instead of interfering with a Nightwing mainbook.


Thanks for turning me on to this issue. That was fun. No over the top attempt to be a seminal work, just fun batman stuff. I'll pay it the highest compliment I can, it felt a bit like TAS to me (with a bit of '66 puns thrown in).

----------


## AmiMizuno

What about Dick and Zatanna? Or Dick and John Constantine. I would like Dick to have at least one mythical villain almost all heroes in Dc have on. In a sense, another Nightwing book could just be team-up books with many other superheroes.

----------


## Restingvoice

Mythical villain for Dick... I only remember him fighting an Acheron demon once in New 52 and he acknowledged that this isn't really his field

His old series is grounded so he only fights mercenaries and mobs

Oh I want him to partner with Andrew Bennett, shirtless New 52 version, that will be so hot

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean shouldn't we open his rogues to another type of villains? Which is why I kind of want him to have different team-ups. It allows him at least to know more about other ways. I mean if Bruce can fight the occult why not Dick? Maybe Dick and Plastic Man?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait how long has Dick not interacted with Cass or  Stephanie

----------


## CPSparkles

Young Master Richard reviewing case files after training



http://knightowls.tumblr.com

----------


## Avi

> Thanks for turning me on to this issue. That was fun. No over the top attempt to be a seminal work, just fun batman stuff. I'll pay it the highest compliment I can, it felt a bit like TAS to me (with a bit of '66 puns thrown in).


Glad I could point you in the direction of the issue. It was a lot of fun to read.  :Big Grin:  And, oof, I miss TAS. Just recently saw scans of some Comic Issues again. There is so much it just nails with the personalities of the characters alone imo.





> Wait how long has Dick not interacted with Cass or  Stephanie


Not since the Monster Men Crossover, I think? And there it wasn't that meaningful. I thought they might be going somewhere when they hinted at Dick training Steph in B&R:E but of course it was only a throwaway comment.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So yea a team up book could do Nightwing some good. It’s not just the Batfam but many different heroes. Anyone that he hasn’t been in touch with could almost work. I guess if we have to do who would be the first person. I would go with either Bruce or Wally first. I feel this woods help why Dc needs Nightwing. I mean all this talk about how Dc heroes care about Dick but we haven’t seen anything.

----------


## Aahz

> Wait how long has Dick not interacted with Cass or  Stephanie


He had never much interaction with them, even pre flashpoint.

I think even when Dick was Batman and Steph was Batgirl they didn't really interacted.

You can probably count the issues were Dick has actually spoken with Cass or Stephanie in pre flashpoint at one hand.

----------


## AmiMizuno

That would be a nice team up. Really a team up can easily help Dick interactive with heroes he doesn’t often to see much or rarely knows

----------


## Drako

> He had never much interaction with them, even pre flashpoint.
> 
> I think even when Dick was Batman and Steph was Batgirl they didn't really interacted.
> 
> You can probably count the issues were Dick has actually spoken with Cass or Stephanie in pre flashpoint at one hand.


Probably not Steph, but he had a good relationship with Cass pre-flashpoint.

----------


## Konja7

> Probably not Steph, but he had a good relationship with Cass pre-flashpoint.


Not so good after the events in OYL (even after it was established Cassandra was drugged).

I don't think Dick and Cassandra have much interaction when she was Batgirl.

----------


## Aahz

> Probably not Steph, but he had a good relationship with Cass pre-flashpoint.


Honestly the only time i can recall them interacting were when they were fighting after R.I.P..

I can remember Cass interacting with Barbara, Steph and Tim quite frequently but not with Dick (but maybe I have forgotten something).

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Dick and Cass are key players in the Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive story, they do interact there. I imagine there's other instances but I haven't read much Batfam stuff outside of DickBats stories.

----------


## Claude

So, do we think we'll still get Snyder's Nightwing story? When was the last time he mentioned it?

On the one hand, it sounds like exactly the kind of project reports of the Big DC Shuffle would lead to cancelling - on the other, Snyder's pretty much the only writer in the DC stable who's name automatically translates to sales....

----------


## Godlike13

Cass also helped him with Deathstoke in his series, but honestly there isn’t much. I would not call their relationship good though. Between them hitting each other and the full on brawls. It was a weird relationship they had.

----------


## Drako

> Cass also helped him with Deathstoke in his series, but honestly there isnt much. I would not call their relationship good though. Between them hitting each other and the full on brawls. It was a weird relationship they had.


They fought sometimes, but you can find more instances of them being cool with each other. She even recall him making her laugh before going to bludhaven. 

Maybe their relationship was worse after the Deathstroke stuff, but they were working fine together in Gates of Gotham.




> So, do we think we'll still get Snyder's Nightwing story? When was the last time he mentioned it?
> 
> On the one hand, it sounds like exactly the kind of project reports of the Big DC Shuffle would lead to cancelling - on the other, Snyder's pretty much the only writer in the DC stable who's name automatically translates to sales....


Snyder talked about a little bit in some interview last week, he is still doing it.
He also said he was never a fan of the Ric storyline.

https://twitter.com/DCVILLAIN/status...81118445805568

----------


## Ascended

> So, do we think we'll still get Snyder's Nightwing story? When was the last time he mentioned it?
> 
> On the one hand, it sounds like exactly the kind of project reports of the Big DC Shuffle would lead to cancelling - on the other, Snyder's pretty much the only writer in the DC stable who's name automatically translates to sales....


I think with DC's shift towards more digital, OGN, self contained stuff, Snyder's story has an even bigger chance of happening, and he's a big enough name he can likely still do whatever projects he wants anyway (to a large degree at least). 

The big question in my mind isn't whether it'll still happen, but whether it'll still be a direct market mini or if it'll be a digital or OGN. Oh, and whether or not it'll be delayed while the rest of DC gets their ducks in a row.

Edit: whoops; just saw the tweet about him still doing it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

So maybe Ric story will be retcon

----------


## Godlike13

> They fought sometimes, but you can find more instances of them being cool with each other. She even recall him making her laugh before going to bludhaven. 
> 
> Maybe their relationship was worse after the Deathstroke stuff, but they were working fine together in Gates of Gotham.


I don't know if thats true. Its honestly like half and half. After the Deathstroke reveal it was all antagonistic from the Teen Titans knock out to the multiple fights right up until Reborn. Before that she beat him up when him and Babs broke up, and even after Flashpoint the first thing her character did on her return is attack him LoL. It actually kind of surprising how confrontational many of their interactions are.

----------


## Konja7

Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:

https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/

It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.

I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:
> 
> https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/
> 
> It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.
> 
> I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.


" Again, because Batman really needed a partner."
"Teen Titans—which I was still on at the time—was way outselling Batman "

That's the idea. Robin Dick Grayson once doubled Batman sales, they want to do it again.
Dennis O'Neil returning Batman to his darker root apparently worked for a while in the 70s, but then maybe it got stale? Dick found success with Titans and DC thought... hey let's bring this gold-bringer boy back to Batman

----------


## Claude

> Snyder talked about a little bit in some interview last week, he is still doing it.
> He also said he was never a fan of the Ric storyline.
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCVILLAIN/status...81118445805568


Oh, cool - that's more definitive than I'd expected! Thanks a lot for that.

----------


## Avi

Fingers crossed that Snyder will be able to give us some good Dick Grayson content. It's great to know he is still working on it. I have to say, I had already given up hope.

----------


## Konja7

> " Again, because Batman really needed a partner."
> "Teen Titans—which I was still on at the time—was way outselling Batman "
> 
> That's the idea. Robin Dick Grayson once doubled Batman sales, they want to do it again.
> Dennis O'Neil returning Batman to his darker root apparently worked for a while in the 70s, but then maybe it got stale? Dick found success with Titans and DC thought... hey let's bring this gold-bringer boy back to Batman


Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).

I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.

It would have sense, previous Teen Titans comics wasn't so succesful until the New Teen Titans comic appear.

Maybe they weren't sure that New Teen Titans's popularity would last.


Curiously, if this call happened some years later, Wolfman couldn't avoid this, since New Teen Titans would lost its popularity.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Well, New Teen Titans sells more than Batman (I didn't know it was the double).
> 
> I don't think DC believes Robin Dick was so important for the success of New Teen Titans. Therefore, they were willing to return Dick (younger) to Batman.


Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.  

(The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)

----------


## Konja7

> Hmm... more like... Robin Dick is one of their most well-known characters, and right at that time, one of their most well-known characters is in the most popular book with the most readers. So logically, if that character a lot of people read move to Batman, then the readers would continue reading him in Batman.  
> 
> (The double part I was talking about when Robin was first introduced back in the 40s, but forget about that)


I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT. 

They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin. 


That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.

Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?

----------


## Digifiend

Crisis can't have been planned yet at the time, as both Donna and Lilith received updated origins before the Crisis (Donna was 3 issues before Dick became Nightwing, and Lilith 7 issues after), only to have them retconned due to Wonder Woman's reboot.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I doubt the idea was that readers in NTT would move to Batman, since DC wants a younger Robin/Dick Grayson. That was taking away one of the main attractives of NTT. 
> 
> They just seem to want that Batman has his sidekick again. That's why they accepted to create a new Robin. 
> 
> 
> That said, there wasn't many earths (or something like that) at that time? Why they don't put a younger Dick Grayson with Batman in one, while an older Dick Graysom with NTT in another.
> 
> Or there were plans for Crisis at that time?


This is DC we're talking about. Their plans to increase sales are very simplistic and lacking in logic or long term planning. We got the death of superheroes, character assassination, unmasking, amnesia new direction yay, replacements, a wedding without a wedding, aging down characters, hoping to attract TV audience by copying the lineup but none of the characterizations, rebooting one part of the universe but not the others, or just straight-up picking writers who know nothing about the characters and refusing to learn because they want to make their own thing...

I'm not gonna be surprised if they've been like that since the 80s (the partial reboot was in the 80s)

Nightwing debuts in 1984, Crisis in 1985, but they made Jason circus boy, which is a copy of Dick, so I don't know if Crisis is the reason.

----------


## Badou

> Here is the interview where Wolfman spoke about the reasons for the change of identity to Nightwing:
> 
> https://13thdimension.com/behind-the...-of-nightwing/
> 
> It confirms that DC doesn't just want Dick/Robin be partner of Batman again, but they also want him to be younger. Wolfman doesn't want to lost Dick (and New Teen Titans sold more than Batman at that time), so Nightwing was the compromise.
> 
> I wonder what was the idea of DC at that time.


Interesting to see that Wolfman didn't think Nightwing would be that popular, or at least not as popular as he became. That probably explains how the character was used in the Titans book up until the Batman books started using him again. Where his character kind of stagnated in the Titans and was stuck in his role there. Wolfman saw Deathstroke as the breakout character from the franchise probably and who he was more interested in. Which is why Deathstroke got that solo book by him maybe. He was also the kind of character that fit the 90s style of comics very well too. So I'm not saying it was wrong for Wolfman to look at Deathstroke as the breakout character from his Titans because he kind of was. I just wonder if Wolfman ever thought Nightwing should get a solo book or if he never really looked at the character like that back then.

I dunno, I already discussed my thoughts on the whole Robin to Nightwing transition a while back in this thread. No need to go over all my thoughts again, but looking back at everything I think in the long run it was the wrong move for Dick's character to give up the Robin identity. He's done well as Nightwing, but it will never be Robin. That era where he made that transition we saw the Titans franchise sort of collapse while the Batman franchise became a critical and commercial powerhouse again on the backs of really influential writers. Even if it meant deaging Dick to be Robin again I think it would have been the best move in the long run for the character's success.

Of course I can say that because we have the luxury to see what happened to the Titans franchise. Had the franchise evolved and retained its popularity the way the Uncanny X-Men did, which was the other huge series in the 80s, maybe my feelings would be completely different. Where Nightwing might have been able to grow into more of a modern Cyclops-type of role in the DCU where the Titans were still a powerhouse franchise for DC with Dick acting as this influential character. But this is all just going down the "what if" rabbit hole which you could do for any franchise or character, lol.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean they didn't have to take him to the Batman editor. He could have gone into the JL.  They would have somehow put him back into Batman family somehow. Even X-Men at times they were very big in the 90s but things kind of fell apart

----------


## Restingvoice

Batman 100 preview
tumblr_2f4de891295d797ee197c49a4da13546_33d58661_640.jpg

----------


## Avi

> Batman 100 preview
> tumblr_2f4de891295d797ee197c49a4da13546_33d58661_640.jpg


Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given. 

Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yeah, no that sadly doesn't make me look forward to the issue at all. Art is nice of course but that's a given. 
> 
> Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.


The art for the JL Death metal tie is sick AF. Looking forward to it. Not picking up any of this Joker War crap. It just doesn't feel geniune. 

The family together feels hollow. Like it's all for nostalgia. Dick Grayson coming back in Batman doesn't feel right [though I guess he was shot in batman]

him coming back without Damian there also feels off though at least we have two of the fam who gave a shit when he was shot present for his return.

----------


## CPSparkles

Looking forward to Snyder's Grayson work. Is this his last work for Dc?

----------


## Hizashi

> Looking forward to Snyder's Grayson work. Is this his last work for Dc?


Do we know if this a standalone work? I doubt that he'd take over the actual Nightwing book.

----------


## Drako

It feels like will be a Black label book, but how knows. Hopefully they release the solicits this month.

Justice League #54 preview: https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...69215941726208

----------


## AmiMizuno

One if Nightwing ever gets his own movie whether it is animation or movie. What should they go for?

----------


## WonderNight

> One if Nightwing ever gets his own movie whether it is animation or movie. What should they go for?


I love nightwing but he ain't getting no movie because it'll be way to similar to batman. It'll most likely take place in Gotham with batfamily and bat villains. So DC will just go with batman or batgirl or robin or redwood or batwoman first. Nightwing would just play the support role as he always does.

----------


## Arsenal

If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.

----------


## WonderNight

> If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.


Exactly. Some thing like Grayson is different enough from batman in the way nightwing is not.

----------


## Digifiend

> Hope we get less exposition in JL this time and see some more of the team dynamic especially with Vic and Kory joining. I'm kinda starting to like Dick's design in-page and on some of the variants.


Beware - the preview for JL is out and it spoils the not yet released final issue of JL Odyssey! 
https://aiptcomics.com/2020/10/02/319017/

----------


## Robanker

> If Dick ever got a movie, I’d wager it’d be more Grayson than Nightwing.


Could be both. Opening is him as Nightwing doing some minor bust, gets the word on Spyral and fakes his death to go undercover. Climax of the movie, the jig is up and he fights off the big bad using all his tricks as Nightwing and bookends the movie in the Nightwing costume going off on another adventure.

----------


## Avi

> Beware - the preview for JL is out and it spoils the not yet released final issue of JL Odyssey! 
> https://aiptcomics.com/2020/10/02/319017/


That's looking good and sounding good.  :Big Grin:  Really curious to see if the Titans will have been given a good showing by the end despite Luthor's presence.

----------


## Ascended

Because it's DC, the assumption is a film would just be Bat-lite and therefore it won't happen because why not just use Batman instead?

But if DC had a gods damn brain, they'd see plenty of other options; they could do the Grayson super spy like others have mentioned (you don't even have to take Dick out of the Nightwing suit for that), you could do something where Dick is dealing with super human threats beyond what we see from Bat movies (Dick fighting Gordanian slavers, Atomic Skull, whoever), or you could stick with the Bat-lite, street level crap and just go for a completely different tone. Batman films are always super serious, dark things so a Nightwing film with a more light hearted Silver Age vibe would be a completely different animal even if the plot is "hero fights crazy psycho inmate" like every Bat movie ever.

----------


## Konja7

> Because it's DC, the assumption is a film would just be Bat-lite and therefore it won't happen because why not just use Batman instead?
> 
> But if DC had a gods damn brain, they'd see plenty of other options; they could do the Grayson super spy like others have mentioned (you don't even have to take Dick out of the Nightwing suit for that), you could do something where Dick is dealing with super human threats beyond what we see from Bat movies (Dick fighting Gordanian slavers, Atomic Skull, whoever), or you could stick with the Bat-lite, street level crap and just go for a completely different tone. Batman films are always super serious, dark things so a Nightwing film with a more light hearted Silver Age vibe would be a completely different animal even if the plot is "hero fights crazy psycho inmate" like every Bat movie ever.


The problem is if DC wants a light hearted Silver Age adventures, they will likely choose another hero. DC has too much heroes that it could use for that kind of story. 

The main seller point for Nightwing between general audience is that he was the first Robin. That's why almost every adaptation where Nightwing appears, he appears as Robin first.

So, they will mantain the character connected to Batman or Titans stories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything.  If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing

----------


## Gaius

> If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything.  If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing


Don’t think Green Arrow is the best way example in recent years given how much _Arrow_ cribbed from Batman’s mythos.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I remember a few years ago it seemed it a common fan talking point the next Batman movie should be “_Die Hard_ but in Arkham”, which I always felt would have been a plot better suited to Dick.

----------


## Hizashi

> If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it? I mean a good writer can do pretty much anything.  If Green Arrow can work since both are similar yet different. Why not Nightwing


If it has to be Nightwing, no Grayson, you could still do the Bond take - have him be the young rogue-ish, superspy who can investigate by infiltrating high tier events as the famous ward of the Wayne estate while knocking heads as Nightwing. I think it would be a great way to differentiate it by having it take place in locations other than Gotham - although of course the city can still be featured.

----------


## Hizashi

> It feels like will be a Black label book, but how knows. Hopefully they release the solicits this month.
> 
> Justice League #54 preview: https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...69215941726208


Would a tie-in to _The Black Mirror_ be welcome to y'all?

----------


## Hizashi

> Dont think Green Arrow is the best way example in recent years given how much _Arrow_ cribbed from Batmans mythos. 
> 
> I remember a few years ago it seemed it a common fan talking point the next Batman movie should be _Die Hard_ but in Arkham, which I always felt would have been a plot better suited to Dick.


That would be pretty awesome, I'd pay for that.

----------


## Ascended

> The problem is if DC wants a light hearted Silver Age adventures, they will likely choose another hero. DC has too much heroes that it could use for that kind of story.


All depends on who the writer/director/producer/whoever pitches. We are *well* beyond the point where a character needs to be a A-list, high value property to get a movie. We've had movies for friggin Jonah Hex, the Losers, the Squad....plenty of IP's that aren't big names. The idea that Nightwing can't get a movie but the Losers can? Pure folly. Hell, some dude was already trying to make a Nightwing film happen. There's interest in the character, it's just WB who need to wise up. 




> The main seller point for Nightwing between general audience is that he was the first Robin. That's why almost every adaptation where Nightwing appears, he appears as Robin first.


Which isn't a problem either. Yeah, one of the big hooks getting people in the door is the idea of Robin all grown up. That's where you start the story, not where it ends. And the last time Batman was in a movie he was fighting aliens and space gods, so Dick growing up and having adventures beyond the Bat-lite stuff? Not a problem.




> If you guys had to write a Nightwing movie how would you guys do it?


Off the top of my head I'd probably do a Young Justice season 3 type of deal; Nightwing travels the globe taking down organized crime rings that the law and other heroes miss; human trafficking, drug cartels, stuff like that. 

I'd probably start the film in Gotham, where Dick's come home to visit, and have him pick up a lead concerning some mind control WMD that, after some fun action-adventure romps across Metropolis, Khandaq, and Markovia, lead him to Bialya, HIVE, and Queen Bee. 

Mix in some motorcycle chases, some fancy parties he sneaks into, maybe a underground fight club or something.....I'd keep it fairly light, fast paced, and fun. That Percy era motorcycle death race arc is (generally speaking) the kind of vibe I'd go for; a mix of Fast & Furious, Bond, and Avengers.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Okay. One of the main reasons Jason was adopted was because Bruce realized how dangerous Jason could and he was lonely. If Dick were to disappear would that really miss the Batfam up? I mean it's often said that Dick is the glue and the only one who can get through to Bruce

----------


## CPSparkles

> Okay. One of the main reasons Jason was adopted was because Bruce realized how dangerous Jason could and he was lonely. If Dick were to disappear would that really miss the Batfam up? I mean it's often said that Dick is the glue and the only one who can get through to Bruce


If the writers want it to then sure.

I don't think that Bruce saw Jason as dangerous

----------


## Claude

DC's relaxation into not needing all its characters to be in the same universe onscreen is good news for Dick - the way I see it, there are two paths to a Nightwing movie.

1) Spin-off from sequels to "The Batman" if they go that root. See also, and HBO Max series. 
2) A film using Dick/The Titans to explore the idea - frankly, the joke - that in the DC universe you can spend your childhood bashing muggers and mobsters in Gotham City, and then get the train to meet Green Lantern or Superman.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Any ideas of what they can use for a Nightwing movie? Or what about a original movie idea

----------


## Rac7d*

> Any ideas of what they can use for a Nightwing movie? Or what about a original movie idea


An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film

----------


## cc008

> An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film


Grayson Spyral movie. Yup. Sign me up for that.

----------


## dropkickjake

> An already established Nightwing should be featured in a batgirl movie, die (not really) Bruce plants him Spyral for His solo Grayson film


This, but Dick fakes his own death and decides to go under cover on his own.

----------


## Arsenal

I don’t think you’d even need the whole “Dick fake death” thing for a Grayson movie.

----------


## Robanker

*spoilers:*
Some people got their books early and our boy's back in blue. Guess I'm buying Batman #100.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Avi

I agree Grayson works without Dick dying too. Spyral and he could start working together on the basis of both trying to hunt down the paragon pieces and Dick gets sucked into the spy shenanigans further and further while he tries to figure out what Spyral knows about his fellow heroes.

I also think Humphries' the Judge Arc could work well as a movie. Animated though because of all the fish-hybrids. It was a good single arc.

Raptor as a movie villain can work too, especially if it is closer to the first Raptor arc than the second one. He easily shows the differences between Dick and Bruce.



Batman #100 *spoilers:*
 was as expected nothing great. The confrontation with Punchline seemed to have potential at first, but yeah... Barbara's and Dick's "banter" was as disappointing as painful. We get it. Dick not smart.
*end of spoilers*

Justice League #54 *spoilers:*
 I'm in love? The art is even better somehow. Everyone looks so gorgeous. I was worried about how they would handle Luthor but I'm quite pleased. And seeing more of the multiverse/reboot/starro shenanigans was great. Also, Kory and Dick and Vic were so sweet I have diabetes now. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## DragonPiece

Batman and JL were both good representations of Dick IMO. Really felt good to have him back. Love the banter between nightwing and oracle.

----------


## Godlike13

100# was generic, though I think its the first time Ive seen Dick be competent under Tyrion so thats something. JL though continues to be the Titans comic I been wanting. The only nit pick is i dont think it remembers Lex killed Dick, and so Dicks animosity towards him could be even more personal if they wanted it to.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Okay. One of the main reasons Jason was adopted was because Bruce realized how dangerous Jason could and he was lonely. If Dick were to disappear would that really miss the Batfam up? I mean it's often said that Dick is the glue and the only one who can get through to Bruce


The time Dick left the family is...
When he went to college and became Nightwing, fired or not, it messed Bruce up and made him sealed the cave or adopt a different kid because he missed him
When he was unmasked and presumed dead, excepting Alfred and Babs who grieved and Damian who died earlier, everyone else just went on as usual. This is post Reboot with a Lobdelled Tim though so I don't know if it should count.
In Injustice, it messed Batman to the point where he disowned Damian for causing it 
In Ric, just like with Forever Evil and Grayson, nobody wants to touch it. 

Honestly, though, he hasn't really totally disappeared in a way that matters and agreed upon by everyone. It's usually one jackass decided to ruin things in the playground so the other kids don't wanna play with the broken toy.

It also hard to do that in a way that matters because unlike the Dixon era where he wrote everything and therefore can connect everything, the current era, we don't even have the all Batfam in one department, and everyone's kinda just run off on their own, to be called back for the occasional crossover, sometimes with consent, sometimes not, so they end up writing an "eh... this will do" story before moving on where they left off.

----------


## Avi

> 100# was generic, though I think its the first time Ive seen Dick be competent under Tyrion so thats something. JL though continues to be the Titans comic I been wanting. The only nit pick is i dont think it remembers Lex killed Dick, and so Dicks animosity towards him could be even more personal if they wanted it to.


I don't think so either, but it would be great if they remember after all and pick up on it in the next Issue. Even the Grayson Issue Lex appeared in would give the pair some good personal animosity.

----------


## Drako

Justice League was pretty good! One thing i really enjoyed was seeing Dick in his various costumes, including Batman. Nice touch.

Batman was Ok, but at least the Nightwing parts didn't disappoint.

I have to say this one more time, we really need Williamson writing the Nightwing book or the Titans book. I hope this Justice League mini arc serves as a prelude to him taking one of thoses books.

----------


## dropkickjake

JL was fantastic. I'd be alright with no Nightwing solo if Williamson did a Titansish team book with Nightwing. I also enjoyed Batman. Joker cold use a rest of course, but I liked it.


EDIT: Does Damian exist?

----------


## Agent Z

A voiced skit based on the idea that since Dick was raised in the circus, he would have a very low opinion of Joker as a clown. 

https://waiting4codot.tumblr.com/pos...ed-by-codot-it

----------


## Agent Z

A voiced skit based on the idea that since Dick was raised in the circus, he would have a very low opinion of Joker as a clown. 

https://waiting4codot.tumblr.com/pos...ed-by-codot-it

----------


## Frontier

> *spoilers:*
> Some people got their books early and our boy's back in blue. Guess I'm buying Batman #100.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
He got to mock Punchline for a bit, so that was fun  :Smile: .
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Restingvoice

> JL was fantastic. I'd be alright with no Nightwing solo if Williamson did a Titansish team book with Nightwing. I also enjoyed Batman. Joker cold use a rest of course, but I liked it.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Does Damian exist?


He quits and the Teen Titans unsuccessfully tried to find him. He's not in contact with anyone.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why Does Dc have an issue with Dick being in the Titans? I mean he can still be in the Titans and saving Bludhaven. If Batman can be in the JL. Dick can be in the Titans

----------


## Robanker

> *spoilers:*
> He got to mock Punchline for a bit, so that was fun .
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
The way he basically reminded her she's the new kid and ain't shit was pretty great. It genuinely felt like Nightwing was back, and with Oracle to boot? Alright, Tynion. I see you.
*end of spoilers*




> Why Does Dc have an issue with Dick being in the Titans? I mean he can still be in the Titans and saving Bludhaven. If Batman can be in the JL. Dick can be in the Titans


Have you never seen when parents have a clear favorite child? Par the course.

----------


## Godlike13

> Why Does Dc have an issue with Dick being in the Titans? I mean he can still be in the Titans and saving Bludhaven. If Batman can be in the JL. Dick can be in the Titans


DC has an issue with the Titans.

----------


## Frontier

> *spoilers:*
> The way he basically reminded her she's the new kid and ain't shit was pretty great. It genuinely felt like Nightwing was back, and with Oracle to boot? Alright, Tynion. I see you.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Yeah, although him saying she's never going to see the light of day outside prison showed some severe genre blindness...
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Robanker

> *spoilers:*
> Yeah, although him saying she's never going to see the light of day outside prison showed some severe genre blindness...
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
At this point, they have to be genre blind if they think they're stopping anything because the catch-release nature of superhero books pretty much dictates it's endless. Even dying is just a pause. The line works for me in the context that the heroes _have_ to believe in the system working to in any way be heroic... otherwise Bruce is adamantly hunting people the system can't deal with just to turn them over to a system he knows has failed. It's part of the conceit. So Dick gets to deliver that boast, and the art sells it.

And just once, I want the people of Gotham to hear someone like Punchline cry they're a victim and just not buy it at all. It'd be so satisfying to see them collectively say "it's been 20 years of this shit, I don't buy it."
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

> *spoilers:*
> At this point, they have to be genre blind if they think they're stopping anything because the catch-release nature of superhero books pretty much dictates it's endless. Even dying is just a pause. The line works for me in the context that the heroes _have_ to believe in the system working to in any way be heroic... otherwise Bruce is adamantly hunting people the system can't deal with just to turn them over to a system he knows has failed. It's part of the conceit. So Dick gets to deliver that boast, and the art sells it.
> 
> And just once, I want the people of Gotham to hear someone like Punchline cry they're a victim and just not buy it at all. It'd be so satisfying to see them collectively say "it's been 20 years of this shit, I don't buy it."
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I mean, Bruce actually called the Gotham legal system a revolving door in an issue of _Eternal_ so even he knows nobody stays in jail anymore. 

Punchline is as much of a "victim" as Harley is, in my opinion, but the latter gets to pal around with Batman now.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Digifiend

Why did Dick bother introducing himself to Punchline? She knew him when he was brainwashed by Joker, so she already knows perfectly well who he is.

----------


## Godlike13

To make a point that he’s not Ric anymore.

----------


## redmax99

> Why did Dick bother introducing himself to Punchline? She knew him when he was brainwashed by Joker, so she already knows perfectly well who he is.


because he was about to wreck her whole plan, basically it was a b you thought you had me line.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I think it was just to be funny and to wreak her

----------


## Badou

Dick's whole inclusion in the Joker War story really summed up probably one of my biggest issues with the character since the New 52. He really doesn't play any kind of significant role in these bigger stories. You could cut out the whole Dick become Nightwing again plot from Joker War and nothing is lost. I'd have preferred that to be honest. It was just forced into the story because the writers/editors probably thought it would make for a good hook and tie in to bump up sales a bit more, but it was all frivolous. The Joker caring that Dick is Ric, Joker mind controlling Dick, and even in Batman #100 when Dick is wearing the Nightwing costume again it was incredibly shallow. Two years of Ric for a page of Dick bantering with Babs and another page of him confronting Punchline where the rest of the confrontation is off panel? How could anyone look at that and feel satisfied? 

But I get it. Joker War wasn't a Dick story and he really didn't have any role to play in it. Which is why it could all be cut out and the Joker War story wouldn't lose a beat. So I obviously wasn't expecting anything from it, but it just highlights my big issue with how the character is used now which I've mentioned before. There are just no writers at DC that look at Nightwing and want to write him into these bigger stories where he actually has a real role to play. All he is in them is panel filler, used as bait for Bruce, or is used to prop Bruce up. That is it. Look at how Harley was used in Joker War where she had these deeper connections and storylines throughout the story. She was a main character in it. Nightwing has gotten nothing like that since the New 52. There has just been no interest in using the character that way and there is no indication that will change in the future.

The two examples where someone might counter is the Court of Owls story, but reading it Dick was pretty uninvolved in the main story as it was mostly a Bruce story, and then in Forever Evil would be the other one. I remember when FE was coming out and so many people thought it was finally when Dick was going to get his push and be more part of the DCU again, but in the end Johns didn't care about Nightwing and left the character and story to rot where the Batman editors had to figure out what to do with it. It just kind of sucks. Until the character becomes someone that writers want to involve in these bigger stories in a more comprehensive way where his involvement feels important I don't really see Nightwing getting out of the rut he has been in since the New 52.

----------


## Restingvoice

I need confirmation on the classic Robin and Nightwing suit in JL, like how much of it is his memory and how much of it is projected imagery, because there's also the flashback of the previous issue to consider

----------


## Avi

> Dick's whole inclusion in the Joker War story really summed up probably one of my biggest issues with the character since the New 52. He really doesn't play any kind of significant role in these bigger stories. You could cut out the whole Dick become Nightwing again plot from Joker War and nothing is lost. I'd have preferred that to be honest. It was just forced into the story because the writers/editors probably thought *it would make for a good hook and tie in to bump up sales a bit* more, but it was all frivolous. The Joker caring that Dick is Ric, Joker mind controlling Dick, and even in Batman #100 when Dick is wearing the Nightwing costume again it was incredibly shallow. Two years of Ric for a page of Dick bantering with Babs and another page of him confronting Punchline where the rest of the confrontation is off panel? How could anyone look at that and feel satisfied? 
> 
> But I get it. Joker War wasn't a Dick story and he really didn't have any role to play in it. Which is why it could all be cut out and the Joker War story wouldn't lose a beat. So I obviously wasn't expecting anything from it, but it just highlights my big issue with how the character is used now which I've mentioned before. There are just no writers at DC that look at Nightwing and want to write him into these bigger stories where he actually has a real role to play. *All he is in them is panel filler, used as bait for Bruce, or is used to prop Bruce up.* That is it. Look at how Harley was used in Joker War where she had these deeper connections and storylines throughout the story. She was a main character in it. Nightwing has gotten nothing like that since the New 52. There has just been no interest in using the character that way and there is no indication that will change in the future.
> 
> *The two examples where someone might counter is the Court of Owls story, but reading it Dick was pretty uninvolved in the main story as it was mostly a Bruce story, and then in Forever Evil would be the other one. I remember when FE was coming out and so many people thought it was finally when Dick was going to get his push and be more part of the DCU again, but in the end Johns didn't care* about Nightwing and left the character and story to rot where the Batman editors had to figure out what to do with it. It just kind of sucks. Until the character becomes someone that writers want to involve in these bigger stories in a more comprehensive way where his involvement feels important I don't really see Nightwing getting out of the rut he has been in since the New 52.


Honestly, I don't even know if they ever think before using Dick. Whoever thought he would make a good hook apparently didn't write him and did not mandate how to write him. I agree that his comeback in Joker War does nothing for his character. I'd argue it was no comeback at all. 

Those two examples don't make me hope for the future, which is incredibly sad. Snyder likes Dick and enjoys him as a character but couldn't include him into the story that should have been Dick's anyway, Johns said he cared about Dick but it seems to me as if he really doesn't, even King wrote Dick well in Grayson just to push him into the trashcan, and I don't even mean the Ric thing, I just mean how Dick was written in general during those two Issues leading up to the headshot.

The first good event story since the New 52 with Dick might just become JL. I'd argue Titans Hunt was one too, but it wasn't truly treated as an event book. Eternal would be among them if it weren't for the way it made people hit and slap Dick for no reason. The Robin part was the strong part.





> I need confirmation on the classic Robin and Nightwing suit in JL, like how much of it is his memory and how much of it is projected imagery, because there's also the flashback of the previous issue to consider


Confirmation would be great. Could be both. I'm guessing its multiverse shenanigans to some extend. The CoO storyline/memories also used both the N52 and the classic Robin suit. And it is time for it to go. Barely any artist can make it look good as well all know.

----------


## Claude

> Dick's whole inclusion in the Joker War story really summed up probably one of my biggest issues with the character since the New 52. He really doesn't play any kind of significant role in these bigger stories. You could cut out the whole Dick become Nightwing again plot from Joker War and nothing is lost. I'd have preferred that to be honest. It was just forced into the story because the writers/editors probably thought it would make for a good hook and tie in to bump up sales a bit more, but it was all frivolous. The Joker caring that Dick is Ric, Joker mind controlling Dick, and even in Batman #100 when Dick is wearing the Nightwing costume again it was incredibly shallow. Two years of Ric for a page of Dick bantering with Babs and another page of him confronting Punchline where the rest of the confrontation is off panel? How could anyone look at that and feel satisfied? 
> 
> But I get it. Joker War wasn't a Dick story and he really didn't have any role to play in it. Which is why it could all be cut out and the Joker War story wouldn't lose a beat. So I obviously wasn't expecting anything from it, but it just highlights my big issue with how the character is used now which I've mentioned before. There are just no writers at DC that look at Nightwing and want to write him into these bigger stories where he actually has a real role to play. All he is in them is panel filler, used as bait for Bruce, or is used to prop Bruce up. That is it. Look at how Harley was used in Joker War where she had these deeper connections and storylines throughout the story. She was a main character in it. Nightwing has gotten nothing like that since the New 52. There has just been no interest in using the character that way and there is no indication that will change in the future.
> 
> The two examples where someone might counter is the Court of Owls story, but reading it Dick was pretty uninvolved in the main story as it was mostly a Bruce story, and then in Forever Evil would be the other one. I remember when FE was coming out and so many people thought it was finally when Dick was going to get his push and be more part of the DCU again, but in the end Johns didn't care about Nightwing and left the character and story to rot where the Batman editors had to figure out what to do with it. It just kind of sucks. Until the character becomes someone that writers want to involve in these bigger stories in a more comprehensive way where his involvement feels important I don't really see Nightwing getting out of the rut he has been in since the New 52.


Fully agreed - and, to my mind, it ties back to the heresy I posted a little while ago... Dick loses more than he gains by having an ongoing solo series. 

Court Of Owls, Joker War and - as seemed to the plan at one point - Forever Evil have Dick's involvement based around the idea that the heavy lifting will be going on in his own title, and that the main Batman or Justice League book can't *totally* tell the story of his involvement in the Big Event whilst he's having unrelated adventures in his own title. But they still want him involved because Dick is A Big Character with a close connection to Bruce. 

But, with all due respect to Higgins who was doing his well-intentioned best under trying circumstances - the tie ins at best are divorced from the main thrust of the story, and markedly inferior. 

It also means we lose out on other appearances - "respecting the continuity of his ongoing title" meant Bendis couldn't use Dick in his big Leviathan story, where he was hugely notable by his absence when Spyral, Helena and Tiger were all involved. It got him taken out of the Titans book, which would have been a shame if said book had been any good at all...

Maintaining a solo title pulls Dick away from being properly involved in the big, fun, DC-wide stories he otherwise would be. And no "Nightwing" title for twenty years has been worth it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Confirmation would be great. Could be both. I'm guessing its multiverse shenanigans to some extend. The CoO storyline/memories also used both the N52 and the classic Robin suit. And it is time for it to go. Barely any artist can make it look good as well all know.


is the one with The Court part of his real memory or the imp... wait the implanted memory was him always been with The Court right? Remind me? If it's not the implanted part then I'm gonna count it as canon. 

Also, in JL the uniform is not what made Dick think that something was wrong. 

We know from King's story that he was adopted as a child, we just don't know if he straight up started as Robin then or wait until 16. Those will be the hints we have that he acted as Robin with the classic costume as a child and then switch to New 52 costume when he hits 16.

----------


## Avi

> [...]
> 
> It also means we lose out on other appearances - *"respecting the continuity of his ongoing title" meant Bendis couldn't use Dick in his big Leviathan story, where he was hugely notable by his absence when Spyral, Helena and Tiger were all involved. It got him taken out of the Titans book, which would have been a shame if said book had been any good at all...*
> 
> Maintaining a solo title pulls Dick away from being properly involved in the big, fun, DC-wide stories he otherwise would be. And no "Nightwing" title for twenty years has been worth it.


Idk I have a hard time believing that's the true issue here. To me it just seems like the usual editorial power play. Superman and Titans writers can't use Dick but Batman writers can force their own ideas onto the continuity of his ongoing title. Arguably they didn't want him back for City of Bane either, which just speaks of the pure incompetence the character has been handled with in especially the last two years.





> is the one with The Court part of his real memory or the imp... wait the implanted memory was him always been with The Court right? Remind me? If it's not the implanted part then I'm gonna count it as canon. 
> 
> Also, in JL the uniform is not what made Dick think that something was wrong.
> 
> We know from King's story that he was adopted as a child, we just don't know if he straight up started as Robin then or wait until 16. Those will be the hints we have that he acted as Robin with the classic costume as a child and then switch to New 52 costume when he hits 16.


I'm speaking about these two from NW #68 and #69:

NW 68.jpg

NW 69.jpg

I think you're onto sth with the costume switch.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm speaking about these two from NW #68 and #69:
> 
> NW 68.jpg
> 
> NW 69.jpg
> 
> I think you're onto sth with the costume switch.


Okay. Good. Not the fake implanted memory then. I know I've been ignoring this run because of the boatload of inaccuracy and just plain boredom, but I'm counting this, and the current JL as confirmation that he did start young and costume switch as he got older

Timeline's still weird though, coz now it goes like this
Batman debuts
Dick adopted as a child/preteen
Robin debuts
Unspecified years passed
Dick becomes a teenager
Babsgirl debuts
He's introduced to Justice League for the first time

----------


## yohyoi

We are so lucky we got Nightwing back in Batman and Justice League this week. Dick being a badass and punking Punchline who was beating the rest of the Bat family.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea if the other books could use Nightwing that would make him very popular. I often wonder if they are worried Nightwing would become more popular than Batman. If used well Dick can be a well-round character. This is why if they could addon a book it should be a teamup. Where he can interact with many Dc heroes. Which could lead to him being in their books. Like Wonder Woman and Nightwing. I mean he doesn't often get time to spend with her

----------


## Ascended

> Fully agreed - and, to my mind, it ties back to the heresy I posted a little while ago... Dick loses more than he gains by having an ongoing solo series.


I get where you're coming from, but you're putting the blame on the solo when it should be on editorial. If there was no Nightwing book, it wouldn't result in better treatment in other titles, or even extra appearances. We'd still get the same crap in stuff like Forever Evil and Joker War and whatever, the same abuse by Abnett in Titans, etc. 

Not having a solo book wouldn't mean better treatment, it'd just mean that the only time we'd ever see Dick is when he's getting put through the wringer for some other franchise. And yeah, DC has treated Dick's book like crap for years but given the way DC views the character, that'd happen no matter what. If there was no Nightwing title, then instead of King saying "I wanna shoot Dick to further Bruce's story and the solo title can deal with the fallout" he'd have said "I wanna shoot Dick to further Bruce's story and the Titans book can deal with the fallout" and DC would've said "Sure, go for it!" and Abnett still would've written Dick out of the Titans because DC doesn't care what happens to Dick. 

DC has this weird habit of cannibalism; feeding smaller characters to their biggest IP's in some misguided attempt to build up and improve their biggest characters by making all their other characters suck and suffer. Dick's not going to get treated better until this corporate culture at DC changes. 

And with all the chaos at AT&T and WB and DC, maybe we're headed towards that revelation, or maybe we're not. Maybe the new people in charge have some basic f**king common sense and will stop the practice of using everyone for cannon fodder, and will invest in the IP's that have potential or show promise. Time will tell.

----------


## CrimsonEchidna

> Dick's whole inclusion in the Joker War story really summed up probably one of my biggest issues with the character since the New 52. He really doesn't play any kind of significant role in these bigger stories. You could cut out the whole Dick become Nightwing again plot from Joker War and nothing is lost. I'd have preferred that to be honest. It was just forced into the story because the writers/editors probably thought it would make for a good hook and tie in to bump up sales a bit more, but it was all frivolous. The Joker caring that Dick is Ric, Joker mind controlling Dick, and even in Batman #100 when Dick is wearing the Nightwing costume again it was incredibly shallow. Two years of Ric for a page of Dick bantering with Babs and another page of him confronting Punchline where the rest of the confrontation is off panel? How could anyone look at that and feel satisfied?


I think that sums it up quite nicely. Two years of storyline only for the payoff to be squandered as a side plot in the Joker event. like I dunno, I hate playing the "slap to the face" card, but it feels like if you're going to do a storyline like this for Dick Grayson, the actual resolution for it deserves it own major storyline/Bat-Family event.

----------


## Godlike13

I expected nothing less, unfortunately.

 But hey we got even more months of the same poop we have been getting on the book to look forward to. He’s in the Nightwing suit now though so watching him save Bea from a Gotham villain yet again will totally be different...

----------


## WonderNight

Well at this point just have dick move back to Gotham and put on a Robin costume. It won't be different than he is right now. At least he'd be iconic.

----------


## WonderNight

Tim can be red robin and dick can be blue robin.

But for real at this point I'd prefer if DC decided they have to many bat characters and it's time to let dick move on and trade him to another franchise like superman or wonder woman.

----------


## Digifiend

> It also means we lose out on other appearances - "respecting the continuity of his ongoing title" meant Bendis couldn't use Dick in his big Leviathan story, where he was hugely notable by his absence when Spyral, Helena and Tiger were all involved. It got him taken out of the Titans book, which would have been a shame if said book had been any good at all...


Leviathan only used Huntress because Nightwing was unavailable.

----------


## Godlike13

> Tim can be red robin and dick can be blue robin.
> 
> But for real at this point I'd prefer if DC decided they have to many bat characters and it's time to let dick move on and trade him to another franchise like superman or wonder woman.


The Bat office doesn’t want to lose a character they can get away with putting this little effort into. Nightwing is a sweet catch for them. It fills out their line, yet no one actually cares how lazy of a job they do on it or how bad a job they do. There is seemingly no standards or care to the quietly of what they produce, or even accountability over their performance. For them why would they let that go.

Same with creators. Its toxic for creators trying to make a name in the industry, as quality matters to them having more future work, but it’s candy for complacent old guys like Jurgens and Lobdell. Who don’t draw anymore, and aren’t looking to make a name, so with the characters built in audience they get to just coast on recycling lazy formulaic ideas for as long as they want just as long as they get their scripts done on time.

----------


## Ascended

And who would the Bat office trade him for? They're not just giving characters away, especially ones that can carry solo books for twenty years, consistently out-sell most of the line even when the quality is utter sh*t, and make regular appearances in larger media adaptations. 

That's half the damn problem; Nightwing is quite successful even when DC puts in zero effort. He's free money. 

Dick sells better than Supergirl and appears in adaptations more often. And Supergirl is about the biggest character in the Super-family other than Clark himself. And Donna is probably the biggest character in the Wonder-mythos, after Diana, and she's such a hot mess she might as well be called Chernobyl. 

The Bat office could have Jon Kent. I'd happily make that trade.

Oh, on a totally unrelated note; another reason I found to push a Nightwing-Power Girl romance; they both have crap real names that have become synonymous with bad things; the loud overbearing middle aged blonde white woman who wants to speak to your manager is a Karen (Power Girl's earth name) while any d-bag who's rude and inconsiderate is a dick.

----------


## Hizashi

> And who would the Bat office trade him for? They're not just giving characters away, especially ones that can carry solo books for twenty years, consistently out-sell most of the line even when the quality is utter sh*t, and make regular appearances in larger media adaptations. 
> 
> That's half the damn problem; Nightwing is quite successful even when DC puts in zero effort. He's free money. 
> 
> Dick sells better than Supergirl and appears in adaptations more often. And Supergirl is about the biggest character in the Super-family other than Clark himself. And Donna is probably the biggest character in the Wonder-mythos, after Diana, and she's such a hot mess she might as well be called Chernobyl. 
> 
> The Bat office could have Jon Kent. I'd happily make that trade.
> 
> Oh, on a totally unrelated note; another reason I found to push a Nightwing-Power Girl romance; they both have crap real names that have become synonymous with bad things; the loud overbearing middle aged blonde white woman who wants to speak to your manager is a Karen (Power Girl's earth name) while any d-bag who's rude and inconsiderate is a dick.


Have Nightwing and Power Girl had interactions?

----------


## Ascended

> Have Nightwing and Power Girl had interactions?


Some, not much. They don't often operate in the same circles.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Last time they crossed paths, that I know of, was in Robinson's JL just before the reboot. They joked, casually flirted for a minute, that's about it. And that's about all they ever do, on the rare occasion they run into each other. 

My PowerWing ship isn't so much based on what is on the page already, but what *could* be.  :Big Grin:

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

Never thought about pairing Powergirl and Nightwing, more i think about it, the more it'd makes sense.

----------


## WonderNight

When I say trade it's just the sports fan in me. But what would they trade for dick? Cap space  :Cool: 

Sending nightwing to another franchise for a while (doesn't have to be permanent) could give nightwing the freedom to spread his wings in the greater dcu and at the same time give the other bats more room in the bat books.

Dick needs to go into the dcu because nightwing is becoming more and more irrelevant by the year.
I mean has there ever been any time in dick's 80+ years where dick has been as redundant, disconnected and irrelevant in comics?

----------


## WonderNight

> Never thought about pairing Powergirl and Nightwing, more i think about it, the more it'd makes sense.


Yea nightwing and power girl would be awesome. But nightwing is to isolated from anything non bat related. He  hasn't even seen supergirl girl since pre flashpoint.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Maybe he should actually just be removed from Bat editors. I mean we see it's not doing him any good. They don't build up on Bludhaven just use him more for Batman. We just need him to be out of the Batfam. Superman editors? JL Editors

----------


## Hizashi

> Some, not much. They don't often operate in the same circles.  Last time they crossed paths, that I know of, was in Robinson's JL just before the reboot. They joked, casually flirted for a minute, that's about it. And that's about all they ever do, on the rare occasion they run into each other. 
> 
> My PowerWing ship isn't so much based on what is on the page already, but what *could* be.


Here I was eager to add more books to my backlog, lol.

They need to go back to basics, the Ric situation flubbed what good they had with Rebirth.

----------


## Ascended

> Here I was eager to add more books to my backlog, lol.
> 
> They need to go back to basics, the Ric situation flubbed what good they had with Rebirth.


Ha! Sorry to disappoint.  :Big Grin:  

I'd agree with getting back to basics, but....what's "back to basics" here? Back to Bludhaven? Back to Bat-lite? Back to the NTT? DC has eroded Dick's status so utterly and for so long I don't even know what the "basics" would be now, and I'm not sure if I want them in the first place.

To hell with playing it safe and getting back to basics, I'd rather see Nightwing built up and invested in; I want new and improved, not same old same old. Find the core of the character and his appeal again, yes, if that's the basics then I'm in total agreement with you. But I don't want the basics if it's treated as the endgame and not the starting point. Take the essential core, but then build up and out, with an eye towards sculpting Nightwing as a viable, sustainable solo property.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ha! Sorry to disappoint.  
> 
> I'd agree with getting back to basics, but....what's "back to basics" here? Back to Bludhaven? Back to Bat-lite? Back to the NTT? DC has eroded Dick's status so utterly and for so long I don't even know what the "basics" would be now, and I'm not sure if I want them in the first place.
> 
> To hell with playing it safe and getting back to basics, I'd rather see Nightwing built up and invested in; I want new and improved, not same old same old. Find the core of the character and his appeal again, yes, if that's the basics then I'm in total agreement with you. But I don't want the basics if it's treated as the endgame and not the starting point. Take the essential core, but then build up and out, with an eye towards sculpting Nightwing as a viable, sustainable solo property.


Point. Dick is screwed when getting back to basic because his basic is "be batman's sidekick and try to get out of it"
That's what his old series was based on. Becoming independent after initially going to Bludhaven on a mission from Batman (after the first time he went independent in Teen Titans). 

So now that we've established that he's independent, and actually managed to clean Bludhaven before it got nuked, move on. Either stay in a clean city since Bludhaven is not nuked today and make a story around that or move to a different city and clean that one so his status quo isn't Trying To Be Independent, but One Man Cleaning Service, or as Seeley better put it, International Task Force Of One. 

Where other hero fails to change the status quo, he succeeds, because he truly is Better Than Batman, and Batman would be proud. He's mentioned in Outsiders to be The Best Thing Batman Has Ever Done, so let's do it do it do it.

...I just remember that we started Rebirth with Better Than Batman and ended with Who Am I What Am I Doing, and now I'm angy again

----------


## AmiMizuno

This is why in a sense why I would like that Bludhaven, unlike Gotham, looks clean it's not looking like crime takes place everything is secret.  Bludhaven is a good city from the outside. However, Dick knows better. He lives that many of the enemies he learns about aren't even in Bludhaven. Setting him off a global training from time to time.

----------


## Robanker

> Oh, on a totally unrelated note; another reason I found to push a Nightwing-Power Girl romance; they both have crap real names that have become synonymous with bad things; the loud overbearing middle aged blonde white woman who wants to speak to your manager is a Karen (Power Girl's earth name) while any d-bag who's rude and inconsiderate is a dick.


As your fellow brother in PowerWing, goddamn dude that's a streeeeetch worthy of Eel O'Brian.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

For those asking, yeah, the didn't interact much but they did for a moment during her solo series in issue #17. They had some fun chemistry, but otherwise they don't operate in the same circles as Ascended mentioned. It really is just what _could_ be, not that the DickBabs and DickFire shippers will ever allow anything outside their preferred ship. PowerWing can and should be the neutral zone both come together in. Blessed be.

----------


## K. Jones

I can't ship anyone Prime Universe with Power Girl anymore without the WEIRD overtones of them also being friends with Supergirl. 

Except Jimmy Olsen. For some reason I feel like he could find himself in that strange dynamic and he's just such a chill dude that the cringe of it all would roll off him. Cringey? Fringe. Fringey? That kind of stuff happened on Fringe a lot, yeah? The sketch nature of having f***ed this person who is ... pretty young ... but you know ... alternate reality. Humans all start young and grow into adults, adulthood and ... well, adult content ... but when you're Dick Grayson and you're FRIENDS with this like 17 year old blond girl who his one of your BFF's little cousin, and then you're like, presented with some kinky Earth-2 statutory rape avoidance method, when in your universe, on your timeline, the girl you know, baseline, is underage, is sketccchhhhhy.

Justice League kids should definitely have a "No Multiversal Fraternization Policy" just for the ethics involved, not just the cosmic screw-ups that could result.

Now all that being said ... I like Kara a lot and she's been around since the early 1960s. She's not the plucky teenage side character anymore and has aged up almost as much as Dick has to the point where her key Pop Culture "known version" is a young Adult person just like Dick Grayson. And I like all the Karen Starr motifs and additional character ticks and beats and stuff (although I still can't really figure how Supergirl "growing up" involves a complete change in body type and huge jugs other than you know, Men Wrote This).

So I can see a young adult Kara/Karen evolution-fusion graduating to be Prime Earth Power Girl and trading blue for white and being a good SHIP-MATCH for Dick Grayson, and passing the Supergirl mantle on to a new plucky teen. Dick and Kara could be a solid match chemistry-wise. I'd like to think the Supers are more sensible people less prone to interpersonal drama, though, and that Kara would be smart enough to think back about Dick's relationship history and track record and be like "yeah gonna pass on that."

Just kind of had an idea for an art where Superman and Superboy and a new Supergirl wear blue, Kara/Powergirl (halfway-grown-up-hybrid-version) wears white and Conner wears red.

----------


## Hizashi

> Ha! Sorry to disappoint.  
> 
> I'd agree with getting back to basics, but....what's "back to basics" here? Back to Bludhaven? Back to Bat-lite? Back to the NTT? DC has eroded Dick's status so utterly and for so long I don't even know what the "basics" would be now, and I'm not sure if I want them in the first place.
> 
> To hell with playing it safe and getting back to basics, I'd rather see Nightwing built up and invested in; I want new and improved, not same old same old. Find the core of the character and his appeal again, yes, if that's the basics then I'm in total agreement with you. But I don't want the basics if it's treated as the endgame and not the starting point. Take the essential core, but then build up and out, with an eye towards sculpting Nightwing as a viable, sustainable solo property.


Absolutely the latter, I dont want him anywhere near Blüdhaven.

----------


## dropkickjake

> I can't ship anyone Prime Universe with Power Girl anymore without the WEIRD overtones of them also being friends with Supergirl. 
> 
> Except Jimmy Olsen. For some reason I feel like he could find himself in that strange dynamic and he's just such a chill dude that the cringe of it all would roll off him. Cringey? Fringe. Fringey? That kind of stuff happened on Fringe a lot, yeah? The sketch nature of having f***ed this person who is ... pretty young ... but you know ... alternate reality. Humans all start young and grow into adults, adulthood and ... well, adult content ... but when you're Dick Grayson and you're FRIENDS with this like 17 year old blond girl who his one of your BFF's little cousin, and then you're like, presented with some kinky Earth-2 statutory rape avoidance method, when in your universe, on your timeline, the girl you know, baseline, is underage, is sketccchhhhhy.
> 
> Justice League kids should definitely have a "No Multiversal Fraternization Policy" just for the ethics involved, not just the cosmic screw-ups that could result.
> 
> Now all that being said ... I like Kara a lot and she's been around since the early 1960s. She's not the plucky teenage side character anymore and has aged up almost as much as Dick has to the point where her key Pop Culture "known version" is a young Adult person just like Dick Grayson. And I like all the Karen Starr motifs and additional character ticks and beats and stuff (although I still can't really figure how Supergirl "growing up" involves a complete change in body type and huge jugs other than you know, Men Wrote This).
> 
> So I can see a young adult Kara/Karen evolution-fusion graduating to be Prime Earth Power Girl and trading blue for white and being a good SHIP-MATCH for Dick Grayson, and passing the Supergirl mantle on to a new plucky teen. Dick and Kara could be a solid match chemistry-wise. I'd like to think the Supers are more sensible people less prone to interpersonal drama, though, and that Kara would be smart enough to think back about Dick's relationship history and track record and be like "yeah gonna pass on that."
> ...


How does Karen being from Earth2 make things cringe for Dick? He doesn't really have much interaction with Supergirl that I know of anyway.

----------


## Drako

> How does Karen being from Earth2 make things cringe for Dick? He doesn't really have much interaction with Supergirl that I know of anyway.


They became friends during James Robinson's JLA.

About going back to basics or not, doesn't really matter. What is really important is the writer. A good writer can do a great back to basics story or make new stuff. 

The real decision is who DC will choose to write him.

----------


## Ascended

> As your fellow brother in PowerWing, goddamn dude that's a streeeeetch worthy of Eel O'Brian.


I know!  :Big Grin:  Don't even care!  :Big Grin:  No logic is too thin in my eternal quest to make PowerWing happen!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> I can't ship anyone Prime Universe with Power Girl anymore without the WEIRD overtones of them also being friends with Supergirl.


I gotta say, that's an odd logic my friend. 

Dick and Kara aren't even close; back in the day Kara had a crush on Dick (who doesnt?) and Dick treated her the same way he treats most of the young heroes he mentors. There was definitely nothing deeper than that, as far as I saw.

Karen and Kara aren't even similar people, despite being the "same" person from different earths; Karen's older, has a completely different personality, a completely different body type....they're nothing alike and basically only share a name and blonde hair. If anything, the PowerWing-Supergirl dynamic would be like a high school basketball coach who ends up dating the (much) older sister of one of his players; yeah it might be a tad awkward at Thanksgiving but it's far from being some kind of weird statutory stand-in.  

You're right that CW Supergirl is close to Dick's age, and if comic Kara caught up in age to Dick and basically became Power Girl, then....sure? I guess? But at that point, the character isn't Kara anymore and has just replaced Karen. Doesn't seem like we'd actually gain anything we don't already have.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, in the comics Supergirl doesn't grow up. The pre-Crisis one died when barely into her 20s, and the only version older than that is the Arrowverse one. The 80s movie one was at high school. 90s Linda was also a teenager, as was the post-Crisis Kara eventually introduced near the end of that run. Then she got rebooted again with the New 52, and was back at high school again in Rebirth. Power Girl, meanwhile, is supposed to be mid to late 20s. And yeah, the common things they use to differentiate the two are shorter hair and bigger boobs. Frankly, classic Power Girl is dated, they're better off using her legacy character Tanya Spears from now on. In which case, Supergirl would be the older one. Kara should at least be aged up enough to have left school, but too much would probably break her continuity.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Was Kara older than Dick pre-COIE? Babs was, so I assumed she was too though perhaps not as much. 

She really should at least be in the same vague early 20s age range as Dick and current Babs.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Was Kara older than Dick pre-COIE? Babs was, so I assumed she was too though perhaps not as much. 
> 
> She really should at least be in the same vague early 20s age range as Dick and current Babs.


I'm pro powerwing. I'll say that at the outset.

However, my first real look at the character of Supergirl was the early n52 run. I think that run is a bit outside the norm of supergirl's character? Either way, I actually found that concept incredibly intriguing. Having been a teenager on Krypton, having memories of a lost home, showing up on distant shores as a refugee and immigrant who doesn't speak the language or understand the culture... this makes the character super interesting to me. Gives a (very natural) segue to being a comics take on the immigrant experience the way that X-Men was a comics take on civil rights. 

If you started with that character and aged her to just her early 20s, I'd be pro Dick/Supergirl.

----------


## Aahz

> Was Kara older than Dick pre-COIE?


Kara age in relation to Dicks pre-COIE is kind of wired (at least based on what I can see with quick look at DC wikia). 
She was apparently 15 when she landed on Earth (published 1959) which would make her roughly the same age as Dick, it seems that she aged much faster than Dick, for example (based on DC wika) she went to collage in 1966 and graduated in 1971, while Dick went to collage in 1969 and was basically in his fist year and at the age of 18 until the early 80s. I'm not sure how old she was in Crisis on Infinite earth, but she was very likely older than Dick and more Barbaras age at that point.

----------


## AmiMizuno

How bad would it be to make Kara the same age as Dick so they can date each other

----------


## Restingvoice

> Kara age in relation to Dicks pre-COIE is kind of wired (at least based on what I can see with quick look at DC wikia). 
> She was apparently 15 when she landed on Earth (published 1959) which would make her roughly the same age as Dick, it seems that she aged much faster than Dick, for example (based on DC wika) she went to collage in 1966 and graduated in 1971, while Dick went to collage in 1969 and was basically in his fist year and at the age of 18 until the early 80s. I'm not sure how old she was in Crisis on Infinite earth, but she was very likely older than Dick and more Barbaras age at that point.


She got an Age Reset in the 80s. She did graduate and work, then quit the job to go back to college in the 70s, but in 1982, she started college again as a high school graduate.

Meanwhile, according to Marv Wolfman, Dick was 21 years old in 1984 when he became Nightwing

----------


## Ascended

> I'm pro powerwing. I'll say that at the outset.
> 
> However, my first real look at the character of Supergirl was the early n52 run. I think that run is a bit outside the norm of supergirl's character?


For backstory, no, that's standard, classic Supergirl (and it *is* interesting stuff). For personality.....I dunno if we can say the New52 was outside the norm, because Kara hasn't really had a "norm" for thirty-something years. 

She usually bounces between "All-American sweetheart" and "angry, angsty teen" depending on which way the wind is blowing outside DC's offices. 




> If you started with that character and aged her to just her early 20s, I'd be pro Dick/Supergirl.


I wouldn't be completely against it either, though I think Karen is still the more interesting match.

----------


## Artemisfanboy

> Yeah, in the comics Supergirl doesn't grow up. The pre-Crisis one died when barely into her 20s, and the only version older than that is the Arrowverse one. The 80s movie one was at high school. 90s Linda was also a teenager, as was the post-Crisis Kara eventually introduced near the end of that run. Then she got rebooted again with the New 52, and was back at high school again in Rebirth. Power Girl, meanwhile, is supposed to be mid to late 20s. And yeah, the common things they use to differentiate the two are shorter hair and bigger boobs. Frankly, classic Power Girl is dated, they're better off using her legacy character Tanya Spears from now on. In which case, Supergirl would be the older one. Kara should at least be aged up enough to have left school, but too much would probably break her continuity.


No. Keep Karen as Power Girl and with the JSA, where she should be once they relaunch them with the team from Doomsday Clock, since she was there with them, hopefully next year.

Tanya can either get her own new code name or go by her actual name, if somebody comes up with a plan for her.

----------


## WonderNight

Is the JSA get in the past or present?

----------


## K. Jones

> She got an Age Reset in the 80s. She did graduate and work, then quit the job to go back to college in the 70s, but in 1982, she started college again as a high school graduate.
> 
> Meanwhile, according to Marv Wolfman, Dick was 21 years old in 1984 when he became Nightwing


And an age reset in 2004, and an age reset in 2011. As well as her story involving her history repeating thrice, almost like every time there's a timeline change her escape rocket ship gets caught in the time dilation ripple and lands after the Event, destined to always show up at Earth age 17 after an Event, even as other characters who debuted around the same time do very slowly get older.

Supergirl's age is weird. Like isn't she technically older than Clark? And he's in his mid-30s. But she was ... in stasis or something? But I feel like I get that weirdness because the gist of the idea was "let's introduce a Super-Girl! This one will be more legit than previous ones, she's actually Clark's little cousin! She's an El!" but then like two weeks after her debut someone was like "Hey, Otto, if Superman was literally an infant sent from Krypton the day it exploded ... how the hell does he have a YOUNGER cousin?" So she's got a little bit of weird age built-in. It's not Arisia bad or anything. Just a wacky sci-fi solution to a storytelling problem.

Actually it occurs to me that I've fallen off the Supergirl books, mainly after who was it, Steve Orlando's cool run? I liked that they added a lot of CW vibes but I'm curious if she comes across as more young adult now? Like what age is she supposed to be representing? The internship at CatCo and stuff like that feels very college-level, which at least to me feels a little more "Tim Drake & Stephanie Brown Age".

Dick of course feels like someone who, "age-wise", has recently gotten his PhD in Superheroics. 

Either way I'll say that as far as looks go, in-costume, either a Dick/Supergirl or Dick/Power Girl or Dick/Superpowergirl match would at least Look Fantastic, her all blonde and nice and bright, him all raven-haired and bad-ass, but kind-hearted. Very Eowyn & Faramir.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Being him in closer with the Superman family. I would love for him and Jon to meet.

----------


## Konja7

> And an age reset in 2004, and an age reset in 2011. As well as her story involving her history repeating thrice, almost like every time there's a timeline change her escape rocket ship gets caught in the time dilation ripple and lands after the Event, destined to always show up at Earth age 17 after an Event, even as other characters who debuted around the same time do very slowly get older.
> 
> Supergirl's age is weird. Like isn't she technically older than Clark? And he's in his mid-30s. But she was ... in stasis or something? But I feel like I get that weirdness because the gist of the idea was "let's introduce a Super-Girl! This one will be more legit than previous ones, she's actually Clark's little cousin! She's an El!" but then like two weeks after her debut someone was like "Hey, Otto, if Superman was literally an infant sent from Krypton the day it exploded ... how the hell does he have a YOUNGER cousin?" So she's got a little bit of weird age built-in. It's not Arisia bad or anything. Just a wacky sci-fi solution to a storytelling problem.
> 
> Actually it occurs to me that I've fallen off the Supergirl books, mainly after who was it, Steve Orlando's cool run? I liked that they added a lot of CW vibes but I'm curious if she comes across as more young adult now? Like what age is she supposed to be representing? The internship at CatCo and stuff like that feels very college-level, which at least to me feels a little more "Tim Drake & Stephanie Brown Age".
> 
> Dick of course feels like someone who, "age-wise", has recently gotten his PhD in Superheroics. 
> 
> Either way I'll say that as far as looks go, in-costume, either a Dick/Supergirl or Dick/Power Girl or Dick/Superpowergirl match would at least Look Fantastic, her all blonde and nice and bright, him all raven-haired and bad-ass, but kind-hearted. Very Eowyn & Faramir.


Kara was on high school during her internship at Catco.

I wouldn't like Dick and Kara. I think Kara is to too younger and unexperienced compared to Dick.

----------


## Aahz

> Meanwhile, according to Marv Wolfman, Dick was 21 years old in 1984 when he became Nightwing


No he was 19 when he became Nightwing (after being 18 since 1969) and had his 20th Birthday during Crisis.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Supergirl's age is weird. Like isn't she technically older than Clark? And he's in his mid-30s. But she was ... in stasis or something? But I feel like I get that weirdness because the gist of the idea was "let's introduce a Super-Girl! This one will be more legit than previous ones, she's actually Clark's little cousin! She's an El!" but then like two weeks after her debut someone was like "Hey, Otto, if Superman was literally an infant sent from Krypton the day it exploded ... how the hell does he have a YOUNGER cousin?" So she's got a little bit of weird age built-in. It's not Arisia bad or anything. Just a wacky sci-fi solution to a storytelling problem.
> 
> Actually it occurs to me that I've fallen off the Supergirl books, mainly after who was it, Steve Orlando's cool run? I liked that they added a lot of CW vibes but I'm curious if she comes across as more young adult now? Like what age is she supposed to be representing? The internship at CatCo and stuff like that feels very college-level, which at least to me feels a little more "Tim Drake & Stephanie Brown Age".


Not always, in the original version, she was born and raised in Argo City along with her parents and other Krypton survivors thanks to the shield dome her father built, until one day the shield broke and... somehow... maybe because of the lack of resources since it's only one city... there's only one ship, and so Kara was rocketed to Earth.  

In the later versions, yeah, she's in stasis. The rocket got caught revolving around the sun, and so she built up more powers than Clark by the time she got to Earth. 

I don't follow the current series




> No he was 19 when he became Nightwing (after being 18 since 1969) and had his 20th Birthday during Crisis.


Oh, he changed his mind then. In that interview, he said he was writing, and Perez was drawing him as 21 years old.

----------


## dropkickjake

> For backstory, no, that's standard, classic Supergirl (and it *is* interesting stuff). For personality.....I dunno if we can say the New52 was outside the norm, because Kara hasn't really had a "norm" for thirty-something years. 
> 
> She usually bounces between "All-American sweetheart" and "angry, angsty teen" depending on which way the wind is blowing outside DC's offices. 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't be completely against it either, though I think Karen is still the more interesting match.


I'm in danger of just making this a thread about Supergirl here I feel like, but whatever. "All-american sweetheart" is the characterization/personality I assumed was standard fair for supergirl, and it's the characterization that I think is bogus/lazy/blowing right past a beautiful chance to write something that is both a good comic book and a good social commentary without being shoehorned and preachy. Angsty teen is a lot closer to the characterization I'd love to see, but is still certainly a bit reductionist. It has been forever since I read it, but n52 Supergirl took her characterization in great direction for me. She wasn't comfortable on earth or in America. She was surrounded by aliens (from her pov) in a bizarre and backwards culture. That is a downright fascinating character for the Super family mythos; one that goes beyond the "Hey, you know how Superman is popular? Well this ones a GIRRRRRRLLL!!!!"

I think given the correct ages, that could make for a good ship with Dick. Empathetic. Has his own backstory of not really having a "home." I'm not sure that its the *best* ship for Dick. It's honestly just that I like both characters more than that I think they are crying out to be together. (Which is also probably why I've always been in favor of Stephanie Brown migrating into Dick's world as an annoying little sister trope.) 

I do think the PG ship fits a bit nicer. All of the characterization I've read of her is a confident, powerful woman who doesn't take herself too seriously. Her solo from right before n52 had a healthy helping of humor, which slides in well with the tone a Nightwing book should take. Also, both Nightwing and Power Girl have been sex symbols of the comic industry (which, tbf, can be and at times has been problematic for both... could certainly be made a bit more subtle and dignified for Karen, I'd say).

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, the adjustment and learning curve for Kara arriving on earth, how she comes to terms with what happened to Krypton, not to mention her "baby" cousin.....the whole thing could be far more interesting than DC usually sells it, they tend to just jump right over all of that so Kara can be a functional person in the world, wear a cape, and save lives. Even when DC tries to dig into all this a little bit, they never do much more than dip a toe into the water and it usually goes along with Kara having a crappy personality. I mean, you'd expect a teen going through all this to have an attitude and struggle but DC is just like "nope, angsty asshole teen is who she is and not just a result of what she's going through!" 

For me, one of the biggest problems with a Kara-Dick thing is that Kara is a solo act with her own title. You'd run into the same problems you would if Dick were with Babs; as long as Babs (or Kara) have their own solo books, the logistics of a relationship with Dick is basically impossible as you'll have different writers in control, trying to pull things in their own direction. Look at how much DC struggled to balance Clark and Diana; the Wonder Woman book never even mentioned it because it went against the story Azz signed on for, and that's just the most obvious problem DC had trying to make two solo stars operate as a couple.

Better for a love interest to not have a solo title, to ensure that the relationship and dynamic is being driven by a single, unified vision. Team membership is fine, as long as the writer of the team book doesn't get to decide on the direction of the love interest.

----------


## Hizashi

Anybody think they'll ever collect the pre-Flashpoint Nightwing in any hardcover format? I prefer hardcovers...

Also, is there a list of comics where Dick appears as Batman?

----------


## WonderNight

After reading JL#54 I well say this, it good to see bignames  like lex respect nightwing. Nightwing been in the minors for so long I thought big leaguers like lex and other JL forgot or didn't know who he was. So it good see nightwing isn't a no name, it's easy to forget now a days.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Anybody think they'll ever collect the pre-Flashpoint Nightwing in any hardcover format? I prefer hardcovers...
> 
> Also, is there a list of comics where Dick appears as Batman?


Nightwing Year One's getting an HC deluxe but that's it, so maybe someday once he gets even more popular.

----------


## Godlike13

> Anybody think they'll ever collect the pre-Flashpoint Nightwing in any hardcover format? I prefer hardcovers...
> 
> Also, is there a list of comics where Dick appears as Batman?


Dixon’s stuff possibly, maybe Higgins cause it’s a complete volume. 

And this is what I could find. Prodigal, Batman and Robin vol 1-4; Batman: Long Shadows; Batman: Life After Death; Batman: Eye of the Beholder; Streets of Gotham vol 1-3; Batman: The Gates of Gotham; Batman: The Black Mirror

----------


## Hizashi

> Nightwing Year One's getting an HC deluxe but that's it, so maybe someday once he gets even more popular.


Yeah, snapped that one up real quick, gorgeous design. 




> Dixon’s stuff possibly, maybe Higgins cause it’s a complete volume. 
> 
> And this is what I could find. Prodigal, Batman and Robin vol 1-4; Batman: Long Shadows; Batman: Life After Death; Batman: Eye of the Beholder; Streets of Gotham vol 1-3; Batman: The Gates of Gotham; Batman: The Black Mirror


One can hope. Thanks for the list bud.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing Year One's getting an HC deluxe but that's it, so maybe someday once he gets even more popular.


He needs an animated movie

----------


## AmiMizuno

But what would his animated movie be about? I mean with Kara or Babs we have have the issue of Dc breaking them up. I mean Babs can be very jealous and nagging and Kara whole kind they might go the Starfire route and make her think Dick is cheating. I mean honestly Batman can appear in other books but not Dick. Sucks. Nightwing is a great hero and shouldn’t be limited to just Batman books.

----------


## Konja7

I've read a theory that Young Justice makes Damian a baby, because they want Dick and Damian to be Batman and Robin in the future (since Bruce would be older). 

I hope this isn't true, because that would mean they only see Nightwing as an intermediate state between Robin and Batman.

----------


## Hizashi

> I've read a theory that Young Justice makes Damian a baby, because they want Dick and Damian to be Batman and Robin in the future (since Bruce would be older). 
> 
> I hope this isn't true, because that would mean they only see Nightwing as an intermediate state between Robin and Batman.


Wouldn't that only be true if Tim picked up the Nightwing mantle simultaneously?

----------


## Drako

Scott Snyder talked about his Nightwing book. 
It's a Black Label book called Nightwing: Parabola.

He doesn't know the full status yet.

- a detective grounded story
- Batman goes missing and the batfamily looks for him and protect Gotham
- Shows what would happen in a Gotham without Bruce but with the family there.
- Has artist
- A meditation on Dick Grayson the same  way Last Knight on Earth is for Bruce
- Focuses on how Dick is an empathetic detective
- depicts him as a compassionate hero

Starts at the 36 min mark.

----------


## Hizashi

> Scott Snyder talked about his Nightwing book. 
> It's a Black Label book called Nightwing: Parabola.
> 
> He doesn't know the full status yet.
> 
> - a detective grounded story
> - Batman goes missing and the batfamily looks for him and protect Gotham
> - Shows what would happen in a Gotham without Bruce but with the family there.
> - Has artist
> ...


I really want this to get picked up. What do y'all think? Three issues? I'd hope for more, maybe six.

----------


## Avi

As for animated movies: Robin Year One could easily be adapted into an animated movie, and I think Humphries' The Untouchable could be a strong contender as well.


While six would be great, Black Label comics usually get 3 Issues, so that's probably too much to hope for. Tbh I'm gonna be happy as long as it gets approved.
Have to say I'm quite glad that Gordon Jr. isn't in it anymore. I never enjoyed him that much. I wonder if Snyder will incorperate another villain of that era instead or has already invented sb completely new. 

Maybe if the pitch gets through and the comic does well, we'll even get to see more from Snyder. The way he speaks in the interview and wrote about Dick Grayson in May at least implies to me that Parabola isn't the only pitch he has or had.  

Edit: I wonder if Parabola was supposed to tie Black Mirror and Gates of Gotham together?

----------


## Claude

> Scott Snyder talked about his Nightwing book. 
> It's a Black Label book called Nightwing: Parabola.
> 
> He doesn't know the full status yet.
> 
> - a detective grounded story
> - Batman goes missing and the batfamily looks for him and protect Gotham
> - Shows what would happen in a Gotham without Bruce but with the family there.
> - Has artist
> ...


Interesting - doesn't sound like my own, personal "Scott Snyder Steps In To Recontextualise And Save Dick Grayson" story, but more like a continuation in the same vein of, as Avi says, Black Mirror and Gates Of Gotham.

And I like both those stories, so that works for me. 

Also, given those previous stories and the idea of being "the Bat Family" taking over, I'd expect Tim to probably come out of this pretty well.

----------


## Ascended

Well, Snyder's book actually has "Nightwing" in the title, so it's not just a DickBats story, which is something I was afraid of. So that's a big win in my book. And it's called Parabola, one of my absolute favorite Tool songs, and given Snyder's love for rock and metal I'm guessing that's not entirely accidental, so that's another win in my book.

The inclusion of the Bat family is nothing I want or need, and I'm not sold on the "how each of them would handle this situation" thing but I'm guessing they'd be more supporting characters than co-leads (hopefully) so that's not so bad. Not what I want, but not a deal breaker.

This basically sounds like it's just gonna be the plot to that new Bat family video game, with Dick as the main PoV character. Which is fine. Nothing ground breaking and not the kind of elevation or escape from Bat-lite that I want for Nightwing, but fine. 

So, yeah....the odds of me getting this were always pretty high but this basically cements that I'll get it....if it gets made. Six months ago I would've said DC will let Snyder write anything he wants, but with everything happening behind the scenes right now I'm not as confident. Still confident, but not nearly as much as I was.

----------


## Badou

Parabola is a bit of an awkward title for it. I wasn't expecting that. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue that well, but I am surprised that it has Nightwing in the title. I figured it would have some original title like Last Knight on Earth did since we knew it was going to be a Black Label title, but it seems like it will be the complete opposite of what Last Knight was in being a super grounded story as opposed to this big epic. 

But it could be called anything and that would be fine by me. Snyder is kind of the only big writer at DC that has shown any interest to wanting to do anything with Dick's character in a comprehensive way. I do wonder who the artist is. Maybe Jock if Snyder wants to try and have that grounded Black Mirror feel. My only hesitation is that it seems it will also focus on the rest of the Batman family and not just Nightwing mostly, which isn't what I was hoping for.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Scott Snyder talked about his Nightwing book. 
> It's a Black Label book called Nightwing: Parabola.
> 
> He doesn't know the full status yet.
> 
> - a detective grounded story
> - Batman goes missing and the batfamily looks for him and protect Gotham
> - Shows what would happen in a Gotham without Bruce but with the family there.
> - Has artist
> ...


I really, really like the term Empathetic Detective. It's not the first time I hear it, I think he mentioned it in the first interview/announcement, but I still like it every time I hear it.

----------


## Fergus

> Wouldn't that only be true if Tim picked up the Nightwing mantle simultaneously?


No because Tim isn't Nightwing and never has been. He'll become RR like the comics.

There's no reason for Tim to inherit Dick's mantle simply because it's vacant.

----------


## Fergus

What do you guys think the chances of us seeing Swing-Wing in The Boys?

----------


## Fergus

> I really, really like the term Empathetic Detective. It's not the first time I hear it, I think he mentioned it in the first interview/announcement, but I still like it every time I hear it.


Yes he has mentioned it before.

I have issues already with this book.

Why is this man seemingly unable to bring in Batman into everything?

Why is it about Gotham when Dick has his own city?

While I like the term Emphatic Detective why does it have to use Detective [normally a batman marketing tag] to promote this?

I didn't watch the video but from the points listed. This feels like a knock off Batman/Bruce. Like Snyder was still wearing his Batman goggles while dreaming up this concept.

----------


## Fergus

> Interesting - doesn't sound like my own, personal "Scott Snyder Steps In To Recontextualise And Save Dick Grayson" story, but more like a continuation in the same vein of, as Avi says, Black Mirror and Gates Of Gotham.
> 
> And I like both those stories, so that works for me. 
> 
> Also, given those previous stories and the idea of being "the Bat Family" taking over, I'd expect Tim to probably come out of this pretty well.


Excellent for Tim. 

I hope we get some focus on the character whose name appears on the title. The guy that Snyder has been saying he wants to write. The one who was used in the pitch.

Nightwing must be code for Batfamily.

----------


## Ascended

> Yes he has mentioned it before.
> 
> I have issues already with this book.
> 
> Why is this man seemingly unable to bring in Batman into everything?


This is about the only problem I have with how Snyder writes Nightwing. I think he has a good grip of Dick as a character but Snyder seems to view him completely through the lens of Gotham, and like DC itself, tends to downplay or ignore the bigger stuff. As much as Snyder seems to get Dick, he doesn't give Dick's time out of Gotham the weight it deserves and any Nightwing that Snyder writes is firmly entrenched in that "street level vigilante" viewpoint.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yes he has mentioned it before.
> 
> I have issues already with this book.
> 
> Why is this man seemingly unable to bring in Batman into everything?
> 
> Why is it about Gotham when Dick has his own city?
> 
> While I like the term Emphatic Detective why does it have to use Detective [normally a batman marketing tag] to promote this?
> ...


because he said the reason he's writing this is there are still some stories that he didn't get to tell when he was writing Dick as Batman

----------


## Fergus

> because he said the reason he's writing this is there are still some stories that he didn't get to tell when he was writing Dick as Batman


is that the reason he gave? I remember Morrison saying that about DickBats but didn't know Snyder ever said that. I remember him saying he would like to write  Nightwing. 

All his tweets that I recall say nightwing not Dickbats.

----------


## L.H.

> is that the reason he gave? I remember Morrison saying that about DickBats but didn't know Snyder ever said that. I remember him saying he would like to write  Nightwing. 
> 
> All his tweets that I recall say nightwing not Dickbats.


Well, that's not exactly as you remember. 
Morrison said he wanted to write more about Batman and Robin, 'cause he had a lot of ideas with Dick and Damian's Dynamic Duo.
Snyder said he had other stories planned for DickBats, included the Court of Owls, but he was forced to turn it into a Bruce's story. Now, he is using some of the ideas he had back then, but as a Nightwing story. Bruce is missing, as in Reborn, but Dick is not going to be Batman. This is about a Gotham and a Batfam with Nightwing as their protector/leader, so, yeah, it's a Nightwing story. 
Dick is a detective, he is always been, since he was a kid, so i don't get your point against that word. 
I hope this will be one of the great stories Nightwing deserves.

----------


## AmiMizuno

And I hope it will help to show to DC Nightwing is important. I hope they never try to make him Batman.

----------


## Fergus

> Well, that's not exactly as you remember. 
> Morrison said he wanted to write more about Batman and Robin, 'cause he had a lot of ideas with Dick and Damian's Dynamic Duo.
> Snyder said he had other stories planned for DickBats, included the Court of Owls, but he was forced to turn it into a Bruce's story. Now, he is using some of the ideas he had back then, but as a Nightwing story. Bruce is missing, as in Reborn, but Dick is not going to be Batman. This is about a Gotham and a Batfam with Nightwing as their protector/leader, so, yeah, it's a Nightwing story. 
> Dick is a detective, he is always been, since he was a kid, so i don't get your point against that word. 
> I hope this will be one of the great stories Nightwing deserves.


Thanks for the correction

My point is that the detective shtick is Bruce's. He is the one usually sold as the detective. Yes we all know that Dick is a detective but by placing emphasis on it it feels like Bruce-lite.

Like the writer is trying to tell us that Dick also has detective skills just like batman. Something we already knew.

----------


## Avi

> Thanks for the correction
> 
> My point is that the detective shtick is Bruce's. He is the one usually sold as the detective. Yes we all know that Dick is a detective but by placing emphasis on it it feels like Bruce-lite.
> 
> Like the writer is trying to tell us that Dick also has detective skills just like batman. Something we already knew.


While I understand what you mean and I too would have liked for Snyder's story to be something grander and set in the larger DCU, I actually believe a lot of people don't know (or don't want to admit tbh) that Dick is a good detective. Nightwing falling into Bruce-lite could definitely be an issue that the book might have, but I think it's good to show that Bruce (or Tim) doesn't hold the trademark on the word detective. Imo, we haven't really seen Dick use detective skills to a high extend in the last few years. Nothing in the vein of Black Mirror at least.

I think it's an opportunity to have a Nightwing title tied to a detective story in contrast to a DickBats.

----------


## Pohzee

> Thanks for the correction
> 
> My point is that the detective shtick is Bruce's. He is the one usually sold as the detective. Yes we all know that Dick is a detective but by placing emphasis on it it feels like Bruce-lite.
> 
> Like the writer is trying to tell us that Dick also has detective skills just like batman. Something we already knew.


Not quite. The whole point of the story is to emphasize how different Dick is as a detective than Bruce.

----------


## cc008

> I think it's an opportunity to have a Nightwing title tied to a detective story in contrast to a DickBats.





> Not quite. The whole point of the story is to emphasize how different Dick is as a detective than Bruce.


This is how I interpreted the idea too

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Excuse me? Dick is a detective, one of the greatest. If anything, not focusing on that skillset is a huge mishandling of the character rather than making him Bruce-lite. Dick's been watered down quite a lot over the years, but I never really expected to hear this lol. Dick minus the "detective" is not Dick at all.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, they’re all detectives. This seems like tying to emphasize a personal style to it. Which is, yes. Look they all fight, they all jump, they all do detective stuff. Trying to claim a general trait is pointless. This is something they still have yet to learn with Tim. But establishing a particular signature or style with the general traits, that’s how they should be going about it. He doesn’t have to be the best detective, he doesn’t have to be the only detective, but as long as he has his own particular style as a detective they can play into that more with him then. Different styles and approaches creates diversity with their shared traits. Dick as detective becomes more valuable, not because he’s the best, but because it’s an alternative style and approach to that area.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, that was the point of Bendis's story in Detective Comics #1027. Everyone arrived independently to work the same case, and Bruce told them all at the end that they're good detectives. The only one absent was Cassandra Cain, whose communication disability would impair her detective skills (she makes up for it by being the bat family's best combatant though).

----------


## AmiMizuno

I hope things get better for Dick. I mean DC says Dick gets along with all the heroes but we don't see it. I mean wouldn't it be nice if there was an event that Dick had to appear in other books?

----------


## Hizashi

> No because Tim isn't Nightwing and never has been. He'll become RR like the comics.
> 
> There's no reason for Tim to inherit Dick's mantle simply because it's vacant.


Right, I just meant Nightwing being an intermediate mantle from Robin to Batman would only be true if another Robin followed the same path. If Dick were the only character to go from Robin to Nightwing to Batman then wouldn't that just make the Nightwing mantle exclusive to him? Assuming it's permanently retired.

----------


## Hizashi

_Last Knight on Earth_ was the last time Snyder used Nightwing, right? How did y'all like it?

----------


## Godlike13

I liked it, Bryce was interesting. Never had any problems with Snyder’s Dick.

----------


## Hizashi

> I liked it, Bryce was interesting. Never had any problems with Snyder’s Dick.


I guess my only issue was that Dick wasn't able to resolve things without the new Batman. Like, I get the "Batman for every generation" thing, but Dick was right there. I know, I know, it was a specific story with a specific goal, but still.

Regardless, it was a gorgeous book and I liked everyone's character designs.

----------


## Drako



----------


## Claude

> 


Glad that Future State Nightwing is still Dick. 

Also, wider Future State thoughts? I expected to hate it, and I don't.

----------


## cc008

> Glad that Future State Nightwing is still Dick. 
> 
> Also, wider Future State thoughts? I expected to hate it, and I don't.


I dont hate it either. I like the designs.

----------


## Drako

written by ANDREW CONSTANT
art by NICOLA SCOTT
cover by YASMINE PUTRI
card stock variant cover by NICOLA SCOTT
ON SALE 1/19/21
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 1 OF 2 | FC | DC
CARD STOCK COVER $4.99 US
Batman is gone! Now, Nightwing has taken on the mission of keeping the citizens of Gotham City safe from the Magistrate. But to do that, he'll have stay one step ahead of the Magistrate! And you know things have gotten bad in Gotham when the safest place for Dick to hide out is the abandoned Arkham Asylum! When Nightwing gets a visit from a mask claiming to be the new Batman…does he fight like one? Pick up this dark peek into the future by writer Andrew Constant and artist Nicola Scott to find out!

----------


## Frontier

> 


Nice little hardcore, more militant, Nightwing look they've got goin on here.



> Glad that Future State Nightwing is still Dick. 
> 
> Also, wider Future State thoughts? I expected to hate it, and I don't.


I think I feel better about Future State knowing it's not supposed to be permanent like 5G was planned to be. 



> written by ANDREW CONSTANT
> art by NICOLA SCOTT
> cover by YASMINE PUTRI
> card stock variant cover by NICOLA SCOTT
> ON SALE 1/19/21
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 1 OF 2 | FC | DC
> CARD STOCK COVER $4.99 US
> Batman is gone! Now, Nightwing has taken on the mission of keeping the citizens of Gotham City safe from the Magistrate. But to do that, he'll have stay one step ahead of the Magistrate! And you know things have gotten bad in Gotham when the safest place for Dick to hide out is the abandoned Arkham Asylum! When Nightwing gets a visit from a mask claiming to be the new Batman…does he fight like one? Pick up this dark peek into the future by writer Andrew Constant and artist Nicola Scott to find out!


So one Batman successor vetting another, it seems.

----------


## Drako

> Nice little hardcore, more militant, Nightwing look they've got goin on here.
> 
> I think I feel better about Future State knowing it's not supposed to be permanent like 5G was planned to be. 
> 
> So one Batman successor vetting another, it seems.


I only hope is not get jobbed to elevate this new Batman.

----------


## Digifiend

> Glad that Future State Nightwing is still Dick. 
> 
> Also, wider Future State thoughts? I expected to hate it, and I don't.


I think the mantle is now shared. There's someone in a different Nightwing costume operating with Raven, Starfire, Crush and Red Arrow as the Teen Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

It would be hilarious if that was actually Tim and he was called Blue Jay or Blue Wing.

----------


## Drako

> It would be hilarious if that was actually Tim and he was called Blue Jay or Blue Wing.


Tim is already confirmed as Robin.

----------


## Badou

It honestly sounds awful. They are just going to use Nightwing to prop up the new Batman (probably Luke) by the sounds of it and use it to probably explain why Nightwing isn't operating as Batman instead. It's a waste of time and an easy pass, but it all was to be expected given how they view Dick as a character these days. Hopefully none of it carries over into his book post Future Slate.

As for the new costume I don't think it looks very good. I'd love a redesign of the Nightwing costume as the simple blue and black design and domino mask feels a bit too bland to me and translates poorly into live action, so I'd like to see something fresh and really different, but just adding these awkward armor pads, some weird domino mask thing that just covers a bit of the side of his head and chin, and making the bird logo look worse is a step backwards. It looks dumb. That Nightwing costume on the Teen Titans book looks a lot better with the blue and gold. No idea if that is supposed to be Dick, Damian or someone else.

----------


## Badou

Also I like that Nicola Scott is drawing Nightwing, but at the same time it kind of stuck that a good artist is being wasted on a not so good story. We just had that with Moore and the Ric stuff.

----------


## Avi

The costume looks bad tbh, a bit better in the cover by Purti but.... hmmm.... the colourist will be the deciding force, probably. Wish Dick had gotten sth sleeker like Catwoman or one that's more like the one on the Teen Titans cover. Speaking about TT I'm guessing that's Damian thanks to the teammates. Hope Red X is at least gonna be Dick. 
Not that excited for the Issue. "Bruce is gone" seems now to be a stable for anything Dick appears in that is not part of his own in continuity comic, and, yeah, please, please, please, DC. Just don't try to prop up the new or shared Batman or whatever by defeating Nightwing.

----------


## Pohzee

Lol yeah sounds right like Snyder's pitch even

----------


## Jackalope89

> Tim is already confirmed as Robin.


Ash Ketchum disease.

----------


## Badou

I just noticed the rib pouches on the costume. I don't think I've ever seen that before on a superhero costume. Just give him a belt if you want him to have some pouches, lol.




> The costume looks bad tbh, a bit better in the cover by Purti but.... hmmm.... the colourist will be the deciding force, probably. Wish Dick had gotten sth sleeker like Catwoman or one that's more like the one on the Teen Titans cover. Speaking about TT I'm guessing that's Damian thanks to the teammates. Hope Red X is at least gonna be Dick. 
> Not that excited for the Issue. "Bruce is gone" seems now to be a stable for anything Dick appears in that is not part of his own in continuity comic, and, yeah, please, please, please, DC. Just don't try to prop up the new or shared Batman or whatever by defeating Nightwing.


Yeah, something sleeker in the lines of the Catwoman costume would have been much better. Maybe something cyberpunk-ish. Oh well.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Glad that Future State Nightwing is still Dick. 
> 
> Also, wider Future State thoughts? I expected to hate it, and I don't.


Still a general meh because it's yet another bleak future, but looking at the artists at least Bruce and Dick will look sexy doing whatever they're doing

----------


## bearman

The reason i think the current Nightwing suit works well... and this future version doesn't... id Dick's personal style. he's an acrobat, and jumps around... the current sleek uniform emphasis that. The armored excess of the future Nightwing outfit looks more suited to a brawler.

----------


## Lazurus33

FS_TT_Cv1-scaled.jpg


FUTURE STATE: TEEN TITANS #1
Image 1 of 1


(Image credit: DC)
Advertisement
written by TIM SHERIDAN
art and cover by RAFA SANDOVAL
card stock variant cover by DUSTIN NGUYEN
ON SALE 1/12/21
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 1 OF 2 | FC | DC
CARD STOCK COVER $4.99 US
When the original New Teen Titans formed a school to mentor and train young heroes, they wanted to help save the world. Years later, Titans Tower is a monument to a graveyard of pupils lost in a terrible battle. Returning to the site of their greatest failure, Nightwing, Starfire, Beast Boy, and Cyborg join Raven to plot a course to face off against the evil that destroyed their team and school. Loyalties are questioned and motives are suspect as the former teen heroes must turn to the mysterious Red Xa former studentfor help. Don't miss the first comics appearance of this Red X, previously seen only in the hit animated TV series Teen Titans Go!

----------


## Pohzee

Red X is such a popular character in other media with a recognizable look and name that I'm surprised that they didn't bring the idea into the comics sooner. Though I think that they may be wasting it on Convergence 2.0

----------


## Rakiduam

Yeah, I'm not interested in a Nightwing's story dedicated to a new Batman, and the New Titans sound like an X-men story but at least is a  Titans' story.

----------


## 9th.

Out of all the possible things they could've done on a line called Future State they give us that. I'm not saying it's going to be trash because I haven't read it but it doesn't interest me much.

----------


## Restingvoice

> FS_TT_Cv1-scaled.jpg
> 
> 
> FUTURE STATE: TEEN TITANS #1
> Image 1 of 1
> 
> 
> (Image credit: DC)
> Advertisement
> ...


So this is Nightwing Nightwing. The IGN article did mention the time is set from 2030 to later but they're not necessarily back to back so this can be the far future
...
They look good for 40 somethings

----------


## Frontier

> Red X is such a popular character in other media with a recognizable look and name that I'm surprised that they didn't bring the idea into the comics sooner. Though I think that they may be wasting it on Convergence 2.0


Yeah, I'm surprised it's taken this long.

----------


## qwazer07

It's great Nightwing is being pushed again. Feels like Rebirth again. Justice League, Batman books, Teen Titans, etc. It's great to be on the rise again. Let's forget that Ric ever happened because I will.

Notice how Red Hood and Batgirl didn't have their own miniseries, while Tim has. Tim solo? I love Red Hood but I won't mind replacing his series with a Tim Robin series. Tim deserves it after how badly DC treated him. Also nostalgia, 2020 is really killing me right now. It feels like 5 years already. This year is making me desire the good old days.

----------


## Ascended

I'm glad that Dick seems to be showcasing in at least a couple of these books. Not totally sold on the doom and gloom of it all but some of this stuff sounds interesting. Hell I'm even kind of warming up to the idea of a bottled Metropolis. The fact that it's just a two month deal definitely helps, it's more of a "eh, let's see if this short ride is fun" thing rather than a "this is the new direction they're gonna be pushing for years? WTF?" thing. 

The armored riot suit is okay. A little too bulky and low-tech for what I'd want to see on a regular basis but decent enough for this. And this is an older Dick, he's certainly slower than he used to be and needs a little extra protection. 

We'll see. Honestly, I haven't been by my LCS in a few months and I'm not feeling the loss. 2020 might be what ends this hobby for me. And this Future State thing isn't getting me too excited either but some of it does look interesting enough for me to get, if I haven't cancelled my pull by then.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing variant cover by Nicola Scott.
https://twitter.com/NicolaScottArt/s...459457/photo/1

----------


## AmiMizuno

Makes you wonder just how far into the future they are.

----------


## Zaresh

> Makes you wonder just how far into the future they are.


10 years, apparently.

----------


## kurenai24

> 10 years, apparently.


10 years for some, futher into the future for others.

----------


## Hizashi

> Yeah, I'm not interested in a Nightwing's story dedicated to a new Batman, and the New Titans sound like an X-men story but at least is a  Titans' story.


I don't get why Dick didn't pick up the cowl again, assuming everyone thinks that Gotham needs Batman (and in this case it seems so). Who is better suited?

----------


## Zaresh

> 10 years for some, futher into the future for others.


With Dick looking around his 30s or 40s? I don't think it's going to be further than 15 years into the future.

----------


## Konja7

> With Dick looking around his 30s or 40s? I don't think it's going to be further than 15 years into the future.


It depends on the books. 

There are books which are only 10 years in the future, but others are a lot more years (like Wonder Woman Inmortal).

In the case of Dick, it is possible Nightwing's Future State and Teen Titans's Future State have years between them.

----------


## Rac7d*

Weather or not the future state story interests you, this looking to be a good turn for the character. We got  his memories and Identity back and  his book is not being cut.



Leaked News on titans explains that Dick is will be getting closer to his comic personality, lighthearted and trusting. His suit is being modified to allow more acrobatic stunt work, so I expect great live action shots


Hopefully he returns in full force in Young Justice season 4


Finally we have his leading role in Gotham Knights to look forward      Thats 4 big projects 2 of which have a chance hit the mainstream hard if we need to be supportive of him in mediums to keep him off WarnerMedia chopping block

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I don't get why Dick didn't pick up the cowl again, assuming everyone thinks that Gotham needs Batman (and in this case it seems so). Who is better suited?


Because there is already a new Batman. Plus wouldn't it be too easy for Dick to want to be Batman again?

----------


## Hizashi

> Because there is already a new Batman. Plus wouldn't it be too easy for Dick to want to be Batman again?


There's only a new Batman because DC made it so, I mean there are four protégé's in line. Besides, Bruce is still running around.

It's not about what's easy, but about what makes sense.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing variant cover by Nicola Scott.
> https://twitter.com/NicolaScottArt/s...459457/photo/1


This suit looks like a few well-aimed Batarangs will take the armor part off
Though considering how often he moves, make it very well-aimed




> There's only a new Batman because DC made it so, I mean there are four protégé's in line. Besides, Bruce is still running around.
> 
> It's not about what's easy, but about what makes sense.


Dick has Bludhaven and Titans. This isn't even supposed to be his business except that Gotham is still his home. So he'll come back late and the Magistrate will probably have already secured the Manor and the cave. Luke will get to the costume faster if Lucius keeps the newest prototype. That makes sense.

----------


## Godlike13

Future State? Tim back as Robin, Steph and Cass back as Batgirls, Nightwing jobbing. LoL, ya "future”...

----------


## AmiMizuno

> There's only a new Batman because DC made it so, I mean there are four protégé's in line. Besides, Bruce is still running around.
> 
> It's not about what's easy, but about what makes sense.


But Dick only became Batman a few times when Bruce was missing or something happened to Bruce. That’s the reason he became Nightwing to not be Batman. That what become more like Bruce. Why shouldn’t he be Nightwing still? If he doesn’t want the cowl or wants to live his own life as Nightwing why not?

----------


## Drako

> But Dick only became Batman a few times when Bruce was missing or something happened to Bruce. Thats the reason he became Nightwing to not be Batman. That what become more like Bruce. Why shouldnt he be Nightwing still?


Bruce is missing and something happened to him, Dick could fill the shoes of Batman in this story. 
The only reason Dick isn't Batman is because DC want someone new with the cowl, and that's fair.

----------


## Frontier

> Future State? Tim back as Robin, Steph and Cass back as Batgirls, Nightwing jobbing. LoL, ya "future”...


They're not actually going by Batgirl, though.

----------


## Konja7

> They're not actually going by Batgirl, though.


It is weird, because Cassandra and Stephanie are called Batgirls, but they still have Orphan and Spoiler as alias.

Maybe they need the independent alias to avoid confusion when they work together (?).

----------


## Ascended

> Weather or not the future state story interests you, this looking to be a good turn for the character. We got  his memories and Identity back and  his book is not being cut.


Do we have confirmation that his book is going to survive beyond this two month break? 

I agree with you though, things are looking (tentatively) up; solid larger media showings and in comics he's back to his old self and is among the few characters getting actual a solo in Future State. I think he and Harley are the only non-Leaguers getting that? And odds are Snyder's mini will still happen too, which is good.

My only points of concern right now are: 1: will his solo survive beyond Future State? 2: will we keep getting crap creators if it does? 3: will DC keep forcing Dick into the sidekick role, or let him spread his wings again?

----------


## Hizashi

> Bruce is missing and something happened to him, Dick could fill the shoes of Batman in this story. 
> The only reason Dick isn't Batman is because DC want someone new with the cowl, and that's fair.


Yep, this is basically all that I'm saying. If he's not gonna take up the cowl, why isn't he running point? Instead a new Batman takes charge?

To be fair, maybe there'll be adequate explanations in the books, but I don't know.

----------


## Badou

You could also add why isn't Dick leading the JL in the future if Batman and the rest of the main league members are gone? I mean having an inexperienced new Batman run around Gotham is one thing, but at the same time having them run the JL when they might have no experience in doing anything like that is a bit much. But they wanted a whole new JL team, so it is what it is.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #75 Preview

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...ng-1-previews/

https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...-on-sale-10-20

----------


## Digifiend

Note to the artist - Cyborg's Titans status is back in continuity. So why does that photo show Speedy (who was an original Teen Titan but NOT a New Teen Titan) instead of Victor?

Also, Garth, the Titans aren't currently based at the Tower, the New Justice Titans team was based at the Hall of Justice and Damian's team was using Mercy Hall.

----------


## Restingvoice

> You could also add why isn't Dick leading the JL in the future if Batman and the rest of the main league members are gone? I mean having an inexperienced new Batman run around Gotham is one thing, but at the same time having them run the JL when they might have no experience in doing anything like that is a bit much. But they wanted a whole new JL team, so it is what it is.


Even with the new team, it should be Damian and Wallace alongside Jon, Andy, and Yara. That's their generation.




> Nightwing #75 Preview
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...ng-1-previews/
> 
> https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...-on-sale-10-20


Tempest/Nightwing gig when they should've hold on to the old team... funny way to say one's dead one's god




> Note to the artist - Cyborg's Titans status is back in continuity. So why does that photo show Speedy (who was an original Teen Titan but NOT a New Teen Titan) instead of Victor?
> 
> Also, Garth, the Titans aren't currently based at the Tower, the New Justice Titans team was based at the Hall of Justice and Damian's team was using Mercy Hall.


Damian's Titans are back at the Tower after they failed finding him, it was there Donna found them

----------


## CPSparkles

> Yep, this is basically all that I'm saying. If he's not gonna take up the cowl, why isn't he running point? Instead a new Batman takes charge?
> 
> To be fair, maybe there'll be adequate explanations in the books, but I don't know.


Dick has responsibilities or his own city to protect. Not to mention his Titans gig.

Honestly I'm glad Dick isn't taking over for this event. Dick shouldn't be a relief Batman when Batman has lots of experienced allies in Gotham already. Gimmicks/Stories like that contribute to him being treated like a sidekick

Morrison's Batman and Robin was an exception since that was a prolonged stint.

----------


## WonderNight

Yea Nightwing should be protecting Bludhaven his city. Just visit Gotham see how the batfam is doing then be on your way back to your city and responsibilities. No more substitute batman, no more bat lieutenant.

----------


## Badou

The only good thing about these solicits for Dick is that Bludhaven wasn't mentioned once! Just let the city die off as a concept already.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Avi

Well, I guess January or even the next solicitations will tell how much of his own man he'll be allowed to be. While I agree that Dick should have his own thing going on, even more so in the future than now, the thing is that he IS in Gotham for the FS story, protecting Gotham citizens instead of being with the Titans or in his own city (wether that's Blüdhaven or not I wouldn't care). Can Nightwing protect Gotham just as well as Batman? He should be able to, but the narrative doesn't allow that, so him not being Batman doesn't look like a huge win to me. Personally, all I'm hoping for is that he'll take on a mentor role as he does with Terry from time to time or at least won't get his ass kicked to prop new Batman up.

----------


## WonderNight

> The only good thing about these solicits for Dick is that Bludhaven wasn't mentioned once! Just let the city die off as a concept already.


Yea Bludhaven sucks but its still better than just being another face in Gotham. But Bludhaven and Gotham are so similar that it probably won't matter if its Gotham or not.

----------


## Avi

Nicola Scott did a little interview: https://www.gamesradar.com/nicola-sc...-future-state/

There isn't a lot she could say but she mentions a few general things:
 Nightwing's status and importance within Gotham and the general hero community plays a role the story highlights how significant, important, and good at his job, Nightwing is another significant character appears selfcontained story

----------


## Light of Justice

> Even with the new team, it should be Damian and Wallace alongside Jon, Andy, and Yara. That's their generation.
> 
> 
> 
> Tempest/Nightwing gig when they should've hold on to the old team... funny way to say one's dead one's god
> 
> 
> 
> Damian's Titans are back at the Tower after they failed finding him, it was there Donna found them


Donna met Damian's team on TT 47, so Nightwing 75 is happened before Batman 100 (Joker War) but after TT 47?

----------


## Godlike13

> Nightwing #75 Preview
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...ng-1-previews/
> 
> https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...-on-sale-10-20


The Moore bait and switch has gotten rather tiresome with this title. And wtf im back, but i don't feel like im back. When can i leave what led to Nightwing behind. This is just more Ric. Bitching and whining, and going nowhere. When do i really get to be me? Are they kidding me with this bullshit. Ya, when the f are we gonna get Dick back. Cause for 2 years people have been asking that and still they just refuse to deliver and drag this out. Why do i have a feeling this is going to end with Dick accepting that he's both Dick and Ric now.

----------


## Digifiend

> Donna met Damian's team on TT 47, so Nightwing 75 is happened before Batman 100 (Joker War) but after TT 47?


It IS actually possible that the remaining Teen Titans issues are pre-Joker War. Teen Titans #46 is also out next week, and we know the older Titans show up in issue 47.

----------


## Drako

Travis Moore should be rewarded after drawing the Ric mess and DC should keep him with the new creative team in March.

----------


## Godlike13

He can't finish an issue. Pretty art, but there is no way he can do a monthly.

----------


## Ascended

> Nicola Scott did a little interview: https://www.gamesradar.com/nicola-sc...-future-state/
> 
> There isn't a lot she could say but she mentions a few general things:
>  Nightwing's status and importance within Gotham and the general hero community plays a role the story highlights how significant, important, and good at his job, Nightwing is another significant character appears selfcontained story


I like the sound of all those things. Other than another significant character showing up. I don't give a rat's ass about that. But the rest sounds good.

----------


## Frontier

> Nicola Scott did a little interview: https://www.gamesradar.com/nicola-sc...-future-state/
> 
> There isn't a lot she could say but she mentions a few general things:
>  Nightwing's status and importance within Gotham and the general hero community plays a role the story highlights how significant, important, and good at his job, Nightwing is another significant character appears selfcontained story


Sounds good  :Smile: .

So someone significant other than Luke's Batman? Could it be Barbara? Or Bruce?

----------


## Badou

I still find it hilarious how creatively bankrupt the are with the current Nightwing book. So Dick is going to go face off against KGBeast for shooting him in the head, but since he was shot we have had Bruce go after KGBeast and beat him nearly to death, we've had Damian go after KGBeast, and we have had Babs go after KGBeast all for shooting Dick in different stories from each other. Now we are getting a 4th story of Dick going after him. DC is desperately trying to scrape every last bit of content from this awful Ric story as they can. It is just so sad, lol.

----------


## Frontier

> I still find it hilarious how creatively bankrupt the are with the current Nightwing book. So Dick is going to go face off against KGBeast for shooting him in the head, but since he was shot we have had Bruce go after KGBeast and beat him nearly to death, we've had Damian go after KGBeast, and we have had Babs go after KGBeast all for shooting Dick in different stories from each other. Now we are getting a 4th story of Dick going after him. DC is desperately trying to scrape every last bit of content from this awful Ric story as they can. It is just so sad, lol.


KGBeast is like Kamen Rider Thouser. Everyone needs a turn beating the tar out of him  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Avi

> I still find it hilarious how creatively bankrupt the are with the current Nightwing book. So Dick is going to go face off against KGBeast for shooting him in the head, but since he was shot we have had Bruce go after KGBeast and beat him nearly to death, we've had Damian go after KGBeast, and we have had Babs go after KGBeast all for shooting Dick in different stories from each other. Now we are getting a 4th story of Dick going after him. DC is desperately trying to scrape every last bit of content from this awful Ric story as they can. It is just so sad, lol.


I fully agree with you. It is creatively bankrupt. And a filler too. I mean, NW vs KGBeast will wrap up in #76. A significant portion of #75 will be about the Titans, then there will be some Bea drama and maybe some extra drama in #76 given the #77 solicitations, so I'm not sure if we'll even see a lot of KGBeast?

----------


## cc008

Just hang on a little longer, guys. Dick is back, he's supposedly running the show in Gotham for Future State, and then God willing, we will have a fresh start in March. We can get there.

----------


## Ascended

> Just hang on a little longer, guys. Dick is back, he's supposedly running the show in Gotham for Future State, and then God willing, we will have a fresh start in March. We can get there.


I do think there might be light at the end of the tunnel. We'll have to see who is on the book in March. 

But I'm not even mad about everyone going after the Beast. The Central City Rogues knew better than to seriously injury a Flash for this exact reason; you cross a line with one hero and *everyone* goes after you. 

It just kinda makes me laugh to think of the KGBeast getting beat up by someone, then a week or two later leaving the hospital and there's another Bat waiting to send him back in....and then again.....hell this could be a new crime-fighting methodology; bury the villain in medical bills so steep they have to leave the country and go into hiding.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Hizashi

> Dick has responsibilities or his own city to protect. Not to mention his Titans gig.
> 
> Honestly I'm glad Dick isn't taking over for this event. Dick shouldn't be a relief Batman when Batman has lots of experienced allies in Gotham already. Gimmicks/Stories like that contribute to him being treated like a sidekick
> 
> Morrison's Batman and Robin was an exception since that was a prolonged stint.


It just doesn't seem like there's enough justification if the city, and presumably the heroes, think that Bruce is dead. If he doesn't have to be Batman to protect Gotham in Bruce's absence why introduce another Batman?

I feel like Bludhaven has run its course, DC doesn't seem to give a crud about it.

----------


## Waterfall

The preview is just so boring. It reminds me why I'm fed up with DC Comics at this point. As fans we're in this constant state of "waiting" to move on from one status quo. Then you wait two years and THEN you have to wait for "transition period" to be concluded for a year or so. After that a new event happens and you have to wait for that phase to pass too. Quite frankly, I'm too old for that now, I want my wasted years to be given back.

----------


## WonderNight

In future state dick should be in his mid to late 30s right? Nightwing should have at least a night boy or night girl sidekick I hope.

Show that the nightwing "mythos" has grown in the last 10 years.

----------


## Godlike13

> The preview is just so boring. It reminds me why I'm fed up with DC Comics at this point. As fans we're in this constant state of "waiting" to move on from one status quo. Then you wait two years and THEN you have to wait for "transition period" to be concluded for a year or so. After that a new event happens and you have to wait for that phase to pass too. Quite frankly, I'm too old for that now, I want my wasted years to be given back.


Ya, no respect for their readers time or money. The goal is to try and desperately milk what they can, rather then provide a satisfying product. I’m pretty confident they know the product is poor here too even, and has been. This book especially represents the worst of comics and this tired practice.

----------


## Drako

Justice League #55 preview

https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...tice-league-55

----------


## Robanker

> I do think there might be light at the end of the tunnel. We'll have to see who is on the book in March. 
> 
> But I'm not even mad about everyone going after the Beast. The Central City Rogues knew better than to seriously injury a Flash for this exact reason; you cross a line with one hero and *everyone* goes after you. 
> 
> It just kinda makes me laugh to think of the KGBeast getting beat up by someone, then a week or two later leaving the hospital and there's another Bat waiting to send him back in....and then again.....hell this could be a new crime-fighting methodology; bury the villain in medical bills so steep they have to leave the country and go into hiding.


The real American nightmare right there. I felt that in my soul.

----------


## Denirac

> I do think there might be light at the end of the tunnel. We'll have to see who is on the book in March.


We should be careful. The light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train

----------


## Avi

Nightwing #75 is *spoilers:*
 boring, imo. None of the character beats were entirely right or fleshed out. Sure, Donna and Garth coming was nice, but they didn't get much to say. Barbara and Dick idk, were there I guess. Bruce was being Bruce and Bea was fine? Tis fake narrative of I cannot be Nightwing, but then immediately being Nightwing pulls it all down. Plus it's before BM #100 but Dick has the issue and ahhhhh, continuity! KGBeast is kinda bland, dunno how other arcs handled him? Makes no sense that he takes Bea hostage. Not sure what to think of the Alfred narration, especially because Dick morns Alfred but doesn't even say a word about Damian. Won't be buying the next issue that's for sure. 
*end of spoilers*

Justice League #55 *spoilers:*
 had a few good moments again and was pretty solid. Still enjoying it and Dick's character design is slowly becoming one of my favourites. It just has sth. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## lemonpeace

I really love how even Dick Grayson is tired of Nightwing fanboyisms. if Bea dies though, i think there goes any good will I've slowly built for Dick Grayson.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I really love how even Dick Grayson is tired of Nightwing fanboyisms. if Bea dies though, i think there goes any good will I've slowly built for Dick Grayson.


Why should the good will towards Dick be tied to a character intrinsically connected to one of the worst periods of his publication?

It's not like she's been part of anything good.

----------


## Godlike13

So #75, oh boy where to start. I guess if you don’t much like Nightwing this would be the issue for you. From top to bottom this is just a poorly written comic. One that seems to confused about its objective. Despite the cover Nightwing barely appears, and really for all intents and purposes this is just Ric with Dicks memories. He still wants to dress like Ric, he bitches like Ric, he still wants to date Ric’s girl, and prettying much just wants to reject his old self. It doesn’t make any sense, and seems to fight against the very purpose of bringing Dick back. Leaving us to just ask, as with Ric, who is this for. Potential readers who would be excited Nightwing is back, only for him to bitch about being back and try to cling to the shit that has been driving readers away. Its nonsensical. It’s why as long as Jurgens is on this book there was never any point to bringing Dick back. He doesn’t get it, he is never going to get its, and at this point he is just taking shit out on the very audience they are trying to lure back. Doing shit like taking shots at Nightwing with not being part of the JL, despite currently starring in the JL. Cause I don’t know if I said this but this guy is so out of touch it’s ridiculous.

Oh and as to the art. Moore basically just does the preview and a few pages in the middle, as usual, and the it’s back to the generic stuff to do all the rest. It’s such a trap. The Titans too was just a fan service trap as they served no actual purpose.

----------


## Godlike13

> Why should the good will towards Dick be tied to a character intrinsically connected to one of the worst periods of his publication?
> 
> It's not like she's been part of anything good.


It shouldn’t. Bea is a nothing of a character who’s only purpose is to be bait. The fact that there isn’t a clear spreation with Dick and Ric is so off the mark it’s absurd that anyone on this book has there job.

----------


## lemonpeace

> Why should the good will towards Dick be tied to a character intrinsically connected to one of the worst periods of his publication?
> 
> It's not like she's been part of anything good.


I hate fridging, it's dumb and lazy, and I'm just barely mustering the goodwill to care enough get into Nightwing. while I really like him with bea, I wouldn't be broken up about it if they broke up, go their separate says, but if they go that route I'm fine dropping him again and giving him another shoot x amount of years later. Dick Grayson, Ric Grayson, it's the same character who's only so-so interesting without weak story beats like that bogging down his enjoyability. at least Ric was an actually story arc (even if people are winging too much to acknowledge that).

----------


## Avi

I like Bea but it's true that she is too closely tied to Ric. As long as she continues to be part of Nightwing Ric will always be part of Nightwing too. If this had been an actually thought out arc and a good run, that might have been great because it would have finally added to the Nightwing lore but it isn't. All I can hope for is that they will have a proper heart-to-heart before they go their separate ways after Dick has kicked KGBeast's ass even if I think an assassin taking someone hostage instead of just killing them is a stupid assassin. But, considering how the heart-to-hearts went this issue, expect for the ghost, I don't see that happening.

----------


## Godlike13

> I hate fridging, it's dumb and lazy, and I'm just barely mustering the goodwill to care enough get into Nightwing. while I really like him with bea, I wouldn't be broken up about it if they broke up, go their separate says, but if they go that route I'm fine dropping him again and giving him another shoot x amount of years later. Dick Grayson, Ric Grayson, it's the same character who's only so-so interesting without weak story beats like that bogging down his enjoyability. at least Ric was an actually story arc (even if people are winging too much to acknowledge that).


She is pretty much fridged every arc at this point, it doesn’t make any sense she is still alive at this point. Her only purpose is to be dangled by villains. Ric entire story arc was built on weak story beats (even if people don’t like Dick cause too many others do acknowledge it).

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I hate fridging, it's dumb and lazy, and I'm just barely mustering the goodwill to care enough get into Nightwing. while I really like him with bea, I wouldn't be broken up about it if they broke up, go their separate says, but if they go that route I'm fine dropping him again and giving him another shoot x amount of years later. Dick Grayson, Ric Grayson, it's the same character who's only so-so interesting without weak story beats like that bogging down his enjoyability. at least Ric was an actually story arc (even if people are winging too much to acknowledge that).


Fridging is bad in general, and it'd be more tasteful to quietly write her out of the book. But she's also a non-character tied to a horrible storyline and not someone of importance. This wouldn't be Kory or Babs getting fridged here. It'd be stupid, but it would just be a dumb end to her dumb existence. 

It very much is not the same character. Saying this stuff in an appreciation thread for a character you don't like and going to bat for Bea of all plot devices is certainly an...odd choice.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, Bea is a complete non character. About as interesting as a bowl of cornflakes. Don't get how anyone could like her. I'm hoping they kill her and all the fake Nightwings off since at least it would be unexpected. Of course they won't though, but I'd rather have these worthless characters go out with a bang than just fade off into irrelevance. At least try and get some value out of them in this disaster of a run.

But fuck me. I can't believe they are STILL going on about this "I don't know who I am and need to find myself" garbage. He was saying the exact same things as Ric. It's been two years and nothing has changed. It's like the story is just running into a brick wall over and over while the writer is trying to act that he is digging deep into who Dick is as a character, but he isn't. Jurgens doesn't understand the character at all. Saying that Dick enjoyed his time as Ric even though all he did was just act like a generic superhero in an awful costume, complain about it the whole time, and get constantly manipulated by villains over and over. Then on top of that he treated Alfred like crap and wasn't there for his friends and allies when they needed him, but yeah, Ric was a swell time for him. Again these writers are trying to push this idea that Dick cares so desperately for a normal life when in reality it is completely counter to who Dick is and has been, but for some reason they still try to push it and it always falls flat.

Also trying to act like he is so in love with Bea that he he questioning if he should give up his old life as Nightwing and everyone associated with it for her is beyond stupid. Who cares. It's so frustrating. I'm so done with these worthless original love interests that are just deadweight in a story. And of course we get Donna, Garth, Bruce, Barbara, and ghost Alfred show up but still no mention of Damian, Wally, or Roy and everything that happened with them while Dick was apparently living his best life as Ric. Having Donna and Garth act super happy that Dick is back despite no mention of why they didn't try to help him just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Also I have no clue how any of this takes place before Batman #100. That whole part with Bruce hanging up the Nightwing costume on top of a building and acting like it was going to be a surprise gift for Dick was so bizarre.

----------


## Blue22

Bea was one of the only things I liked about the Ric saga and I was kinda hoping she and Dick would stay together for a bit. But since that's looking less and less likely, I guess writing her out is the next logical step...I'd just rather it not be by killing her. I woudn't be broken up if she got fridged but I'd prefer she didn't. You don't have to kill a character every time you run out of things to do with them. Especially someone as minor as her. Just have her and Dick come to a mutual understanding and let her walk off into sunset, only to be seen whenever Dick calls in a favor from those fake Nightwings.




> She is pretty much fridged every arc at this point, it doesn’t make any sense she is still alive at this point. Her only purpose is to be dangled by villains.


I really hate how true that is -___-

----------


## Rakiduam

> I hate fridging, it's dumb and lazy, and I'm just barely mustering the goodwill to care enough get into Nightwing. while I really like him with bea, I wouldn't be broken up about it if they broke up, go their separate says, but if they go that route I'm fine dropping him again and giving him another shoot x amount of years later. Dick Grayson, Ric Grayson, it's the same character who's only so-so interesting without weak story beats like that bogging down his enjoyability. at least Ric was an actually story arc (even if people are winging too much to acknowledge that).


Are they ever not actually story arc? Of course is a story arc, one with so little substance that the character had to lose his memory three times in two years, but yes a story arc.

Bea probably will play out the same way that amnesic Bruce's girlfriend went.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Are they ever not actually story arc? Of course is a story arc, one with so little substance that the character had to lose his memory three times in two years, but yes a story arc.
> 
> Bea probably will play out the same way that amnesic Bruce's girlfriend went.


Wasn't that a revamped Julie Madison?
Did she just piss off on back to limbo once that was over?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Wasn't that a revamped Julie Madison?
> Did she just piss off on back to limbo once that was over?


Yes
...
...
...
Yeah. It was All-Star Batman, BatCat, Metal, Justice League, so she's not appearing anywhere ever

----------


## Badou

Julie Madison in Snyder's run was Bea done right. In that Superheavy arc by Snyder she represented the life Bruce could have had if he was only Bruce Wayne and Batman never existed. Then when he got his memories back he knew that going back to Batman would close the door on that potential life with her, which it did. There was also a very clear difference between Bruce as he was without his memories and Bruce with them. Which made sense because if there wasn't then he wouldn't really be giving up anything by going back to Batman. That arc would be pointless if he was the same all through it.

With Jurgens he is trying to say there is no difference between Dick or Ric. That as Ric he was still himself all along, which makes this whole terrible arc pointless. Even in the latest issue Dick is still questioning himself if he wants to be Nightwing. There was no moment in this whole arc where Dick accepted who he is with his memories and embraced it. Where he is resolute in his decision the way Bruce was when he accepted his memories of being Batman and all the responsibilities that came with it. It's just Dick/Ric complaining or being uncertain of himself again. That whole scene with Donna and Garth talking about how great those early Titans days were and Dick is basically coming across as thinking those days weren't that good. It's so tone deaf. No reader or fan wants to see that. Then he is desperately trying to convince Bea that he is still Ric and that nothing will have to change. It's so frustrating. 

Of course the problem with this whole arc is that Dick as Ric was doing the exact same things he was doing as Dick, just more ineffectually. Since he was just running around as a costumed hero and fighting the same villains as always, but somehow he is still unsure if he wants that? How does that make sense? We haven't seen him do anything else other than drive a cab for a few panels. The writers failed to set up any kind of alternative despite having so many fucking issues. Bruce when he lost his memories was living a completely different life. Since it was trying to represent the life he could have had without Batman. Also it was Alfred that decided not to give him his memories back. Alfred wanted Bruce to live a life without burden and danger because he cared about him so much. Which was smart because it wasn't Bruce rejecting his memories as Batman, complaining about his old life he doesn't remember, and acting kind of awful to the people that he is supposed to care about. Which of course is what happened with the Ric story where Dick did all three of those things. 

This whole arc was written and managed so poorly that I can't understand how anyone can defend it. Like every single decision from the very beginning was just the creators stumbling over themselves and falling into a hole they kept on digging.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm running back here after I saw some spoiler image because of course I'm not buying this and... WHY IS HE KEEPING THAT AWFUL HALF-BUCKY COSTUME DIDN'T JOKER GAVE HIM THAT oh wait no that's what he wore before Joker came around... that's his I'm Looking For My True Self Suit BUT HE CHANGED IT TO A NIGHTWING COSTUME WHEN HE GOT HIS MEMORY BACK EFF OFF

Dick as Ric is doing the same thing as Dick and now Dick as Dick is doing the same thing as Ric... honestly just... stop. You're dragging this thing to 2021.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm running back here after I saw some spoiler image because of course I'm not buying this and... WHY IS HE KEEPING THAT AWFUL HALF-BUCKY COSTUME DIDN'T JOKER GAVE HIM THAT oh wait no that's what he wore before Joker came around... that's his I'm Looking For My True Self Suit BUT HE CHANGED IT TO A NIGHTWING COSTUME WHEN HE GOT HIS MEMORY BACK EFF OFF
> 
> Dick as Ric is doing the same thing as Dick and now Dick as Dick is doing the same thing as Ric... honestly just... stop. You're dragging this thing to 2021.


Please buy it , we need to tick nightwing sales back up now that Dick is back.  Bea needs to vanish into the abyss, they cant kill  her due to the political climate but she needs to go

----------


## Avi

> Please buy it , we need to tick nightwing sales back up now that Dick is back.  Bea needs to vanish into the abyss, they cant kill  her due to the political climate but she needs to go


But Dick isn't back, not really, and the oversized Issue really isn't worth the extra money. 

I regretted purchasing it the second I saw the price tag and reading the Issue didn't help. Dan Jurgens is still right there. Though, I might return for #77 depending on who the kindred spirit is.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Please buy it , we need to tick nightwing sales back up now that Dick is back.  Bea needs to vanish into the abyss, they cant kill  her due to the political climate but she needs to go


Sorry dude, I don't give a **** 

I'm not your usual DC fans who's beholden to a series. If I think the character's better written in other books, then I'd rather his solo gone and have him in that other book coz then I'll actually enjoy it. 

Also, this is Dick. He'll survive a cancellation or two. 

DC needs to show that they earn my trust first before coming back, and that means actually showing me a good story, and a minimum of 3 years of not bothering with his story arc and supporting cast, because they've shown I can't trust them with just 1-2 years anymore.

That standard will rise up every time they mess with him, so if they mess him after 4 years next time, I'm gonna freaking wait 5 years. **** them.

I'll give you this though, I don't think they're gonna kill Bea, not because of politic, because some DC writers are that unaware and I don't know where this one stands, but because Dick as at this point where he doubts becoming Nightwing again, and losing Bea will make him think Nightwing is not worth it.

----------


## Digifiend

> Nightwing #75 is *spoilers:*
>  boring, imo. None of the character beats were entirely right or fleshed out. Sure, Donna and Garth coming was nice, but they didn't get much to say. Barbara and Dick idk, were there I guess. Bruce was being Bruce and Bea was fine? Tis fake narrative of I cannot be Nightwing, but then immediately being Nightwing pulls it all down. Plus it's before BM #100 but Dick has the issue and ahhhhh, continuity! KGBeast is kinda bland, dunno how other arcs handled him? Makes no sense that he takes Bea hostage. Not sure what to think of the Alfred narration, especially because Dick morns Alfred but doesn't even say a word about Damian. Won't be buying the next issue that's for sure. 
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
The Titans scene is before #100, but everything with him actually in the Nightwing suit should be after.

As for KGBeast, you're right - honestly, they could do worse than to apply some of Arrow's characterisation of Anatoly onto him.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

> Please buy it , we need to tick nightwing sales back up now that Dick is back.  Bea needs to vanish into the abyss, they cant kill  her due to the political climate but she needs to go


If they gave a crap about the books sales then the first thing they do with Nightwing on his return shouldn’t have been to let Ric’s writer try and tell people how he’s the same character people have been rejecting, and showed little interest in reading about these last 2 years. It’s brain dead stupid the mentality on this book and the unfortunate reality of how they are operating with this book is that the books sales are probably doomed.
 They let Jurgens waste the return on his way out, and a new creative team just isn’t going to be enough to rebound the book’s sales. Not unless its a big name team, which is never going to happen. I know people were banking on a line-wide relaunch to save the character, but as we know that’s not happening. So Dick is kind of screwed. Wasting this return like they are is going to more more harmful then people thought.

----------


## Ascended

> Please buy it , we need to tick nightwing sales back up now that Dick is back.  Bea needs to vanish into the abyss, they cant kill  her due to the political climate but she needs to go


As happy as I am that Dick is back, I won't buy a sh*t product just for the sake of supporting the IP. We do that, and all we're telling DC is that we'll swallow any amount of crap they shove at us, so long as Dick's called Dick and is wearing the right costume. 

Rather than buy a subpar product like #75, what we should do (and what we should've been doing over the past two years) is buy trades of older material (Year One) and OGN's like Lost Carnival, buying t-shirts, toys, magnets, any merchandise at all, and sending (polite but unsatisfied) messages to DC's social media pages. We need to support the character in a way that doesn't reward DC for halfassed effort.

We should also go out of our way to buy the upcoming Nightwing products with a different writer. We need to show DC that we're willing to give the book a chance, and that we'll stand by it if it's worth reading. So those Future State issues? Grab them. Even if you're not familiar with the writer or you don't like the sound of the story, get that first issue to show DC you're willing to give Nightwing a shot under different creators. If the first issue doesn't work for you, don't get the second, but show DC you're willing to try it. Same with Snyder's mini, the current JL arc, etc. We need to show DC that they can make good money off this character, but that we won't accept bottom-of-the-barrel creators. We need to show DC we will support Nightwing, but that we won't support more crap stories like Ric.

----------


## K. Jones

What's in store for Nightwing after Future State?

We know Snyder's backing off the mainline DCU but is working on a Nightwing thing which is nice. We don't have an artist for that I don't think but I'm curious who anybody would want to see on art detail for that. I think Jock could be good because of the full circle with Black Mirror. Same for Francisco Francavilla. But their styles don't scream Nightwing as much as Batman, and I tend to like Jock more on one-off issues, not for whole runs. Capullo's probably moving onto a different project. Mikel Janin's doing that Wonder Woman jam.

So I'm curious who anyone might like to see.

----------


## WonderNight

Yea I'm not investing in nightwing until dc invest in nightwing. I'm done with Batman lite, I'm done with Batman sidekick, I'm done with nightwing being some irrelevant side character who's only relevant when Batman needs fodder or the batfamily needs hugs.

Until Nightwing truly becomes his own man and dc decides to invest in that I'm not buying no nightwing comics. DC what's my money than earn it.

I still want nightwing out of the bat office and books, there overcrowded and dick his independence more than anything.

----------


## WonderNight

> What's in store for Nightwing after Future State?
> 
> We know Snyder's backing off the mainline DCU but is working on a Nightwing thing which is nice. We don't have an artist for that I don't think but I'm curious who anybody would want to see on art detail for that. I think Jock could be good because of the full circle with Black Mirror. Same for Francisco Francavilla. But their styles don't scream Nightwing as much as Batman, and I tend to like Jock more on one-off issues, not for whole runs. Capullo's probably moving onto a different project. Mikel Janin's doing that Wonder Woman jam.
> 
> So I'm curious who anyone might like to see.


If you what to know what story's are coming up for nightwing, well let's take a look.

Gotham knights:Batman is gone nightwing protects Batman's city.

Synder's black label: Batman is gone nightwing protects batman's city.

Future state: Batman is gone nightwing protects Batman's city.

So the same as normal.

----------


## Godlike13

> What's in store for Nightwing after Future State?
> 
> We know Snyder's backing off the mainline DCU but is working on a Nightwing thing which is nice. We don't have an artist for that I don't think but I'm curious who anybody would want to see on art detail for that. I think Jock could be good because of the full circle with Black Mirror. Same for Francisco Francavilla. But their styles don't scream Nightwing as much as Batman, and I tend to like Jock more on one-off issues, not for whole runs. Capullo's probably moving onto a different project. Mikel Janin's doing that Wonder Woman jam.
> 
> So I'm curious who anyone might like to see.


Chris Samnee.

----------


## Restingvoice

Jock is my first choice too, but depend on what kind of story, if it's still horror-detective, maybe aside from Jock, Lee Weeks?
If it's futuristic sci-fi because of the Parabola system, my first choice is Capullo, then depending on how sci-fi it is, Rocafort, but I don't think Rocafort fits Batman, he's too sci-fi.

----------


## Pohzee

Given the homage they did to Black Mirror in The Batman Who Laughs, its gotta be Jock. If he's returning to finish up from that era its gotta be Jock or maybe McCarthy.

----------


## AmiMizuno

We also have the Titans. Dick is in that one. He and the main titans had a academy but Red X destroyed everything. Yea its not like Tim or Babs cant take care of Gotham.

----------


## Godlike13

Teen Titans. im not expecting much from that to be honest.

----------


## CPSparkles

It's baffling how backwards DC's priorities are. Why are they so insistent on crippling good characters who have proven audiences and have been profitable up to date?

I understand taking a risk and diversifying but why don't they ever go for the everyone thrives mentality? They must know that these decisions are hurting their IP's. This Dick was better as Ric, Damian is a Suicide Bomber, Tim is Robin again, Babs is Oracle without the empowering and positive rep.
Luke is a 2 month filler not Batman rather than promoting his own identity of Batwing.

DC is just a mess and their comics are no longer fun.

----------


## Hizashi

> Chris Samnee.


I'd love that.

----------


## L.H.

> It's baffling how backwards DC's priorities are. Why are they so insistent on crippling good characters who have proven audiences and have been profitable up to date?
> 
> I understand taking a risk and diversifying but why don't they ever go for the everyone thrives mentality? They must know that these decisions are hurting their IP's. This Dick was better as Ric, Damian is a Suicide Bomber, Tim is Robin again, Babs is Oracle without the empowering and positive rep.
> Luke is a 2 month filler not Batman rather than promoting his own identity of Batwing.
> 
> DC is just a mess and their comics are no longer fun.


All of this is still DiDio legacy, I hope after Future State DC is going to leave that behind and start again. Williamson's JL is one step in he right direction, Snyder's Blank Label can be the second. Still waiting for Tomasi: he said his Det. Com. run was going to have a lot of Damian and Dick.

Also, I've heard rumors about Timothy Fox being next Batman, insted of Luke. I don't even know who he is.

----------


## Restingvoice

> All of this is still DiDio legacy, I hope after Future State DC is going to leave that behind and start again. Williamson's JL is one step in he right direction, Snyder's Blank Label can be the second. Still waiting for Tomasi: he said his Det. Com. run was going to have a lot of Damian and Dick.
> 
> Also, I've heard rumors about Timothy Fox being next Batman, insted of Luke. I don't even know who he is.


I suspected as much. When Father and Son is fighting, they'll stop when Mom is kidnapped by Evil Dad

Older son of Lucius Fox from like 2 continuities ago

----------


## dropkickjake

Wow that Nightwing issue was pretty bad. Good art wasted. Justice League was pretty good again though.

----------


## Hizashi

Have they ever explored the "Dick Grayson is a multiversal constant" idea?

----------


## Rac7d*

Season 4 of titans confirmed

----------


## cc008

> Season 4 of titans confirmed


I'm excited about what I've been hearing regarding Dick for season 3. So if it's all good, then GREAT! Another season. 

Hopefully I can say the same for Jason. But I'm less confident.

----------


## Hypestyle

are there any good newer "retro" stories about Dick in his Robin years?  Maybe around the first year or so he was with the rebooted teen titans? (Starfire, Changeling, etc.)

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

> are there any good newer "retro" stories about Dick in his Robin years?  Maybe around the first year or so he was with the rebooted teen titans? (Starfire, Changeling, etc.)


Robin 80th is pretty solid

----------


## Pohzee

> are there any good newer "retro" stories about Dick in his Robin years?  Maybe around the first year or so he was with the rebooted teen titans? (Starfire, Changeling, etc.)


How new? Like modern storytelling or within the past 5 years. There were a lot of good ones in the early '00s.

----------


## Digifiend

> Robin 80th is pretty solid


None of the stories are really him as Robin though. One is set as he's transitioning to Nightwing, another is a Nightwing solo story, another one is Nightwing with the 1999 Titans team, and the last is Agent 37 during the Grayson series.

----------


## Badou

> are there any good newer "retro" stories about Dick in his Robin years?  Maybe around the first year or so he was with the rebooted teen titans? (Starfire, Changeling, etc.)


Not many. Stories with him as Robin are pretty rare these days, especially stories that focus on him as Robin instead of him only having a cameo. I guess it just doesn't make sense to them to make stories with him as Robin when they want to push Tim or Damian in that role. I think Jason has even appeared more as Robin if I look into it. 

One that comes to mind is Tomasi's Batman and Robin Annual #2 from the New 52. It sucks that it is set in the messed up New 52 continuity. So it is early in his career, but he is kind of old because of the New 52 timeline. Plus he is in his awful New 52 costume, but some like that costume so it might make it better I guess. Still, it really showcases some fun aspects of the character. I wouldn't call it a great story, but it is a lot of fun. I can't really think of any more from the last 10-15 years that are that good.

----------


## Avi

> Have they ever explored the "Dick Grayson is a multiversal constant" idea?


Not really. I'm surprised Seeley got away with that statement tbh. The Dr Hurt arc Seeley did was a good start and was supposed to explore the multiversal constant theme after Clark mentioned it in one of the prior Issues. if I remember correctly it was even supposed to lead into Metal? In the end it just felt unconnected though.  

I'd love to read a story that explores the concept, even just a story in which Dick gets roped into multiverse shenanigans.

----------


## Aahz

> I think Jason has even appeared more as Robin if I look into it.


Depends what you count, Jason in his own book gets more Flashbacks to his time as Robin than Dick, and we get know occasionally versions of Jason's origin story and his death in "Elseworld" settings. But when it comes to full length stories with them as Robin in the main continuity, those are still rarer for Jason
I think other than the one in the 80 Year Robin book we didn't had one since Retroactive: Batman-The '80, and in most of these stories Jason isn't even the main character.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Have they ever explored the "Dick Grayson is a multiversal constant" idea?


No coz they don't really let him be a part of multiverse story 
In the past similar ideas exist
Infinite Crisis, "is this earth's Dick Grayson a corrupted version of yours?" "no"
Convergence, "your bond with Bruce Wayne echoes in every reality" and "if you're like the Dick Grayson I know, you'll know what to do" 
Both stories involve a Superman in those conversations too btw
Although those events are limited to two Earths only

Rather than Dick as a Multiversal Constant of being similar too each other and innately good because Deathwing and Nightwing New Order exist, it's more correct to say that Dynamic Duo is the Multiversal Constant. Good and evil, living or dead, past or future, because a Dick Grayson is always paired with a Batman, even crossing earths  and crossing time, such as Batman One Million with present Dick, the vampire Batman and vampire hunter Dick, Thomas Wayne Batman and civilian Earth 2 Dick, the robot Batman and Little League Dick.

It's also pretty consistent that the death of one is the other's breaking point, or at least make destabilize them enough. Batman about to kill a Luthor after he almost killed Dick in two continuities, Nightwing New Order, the reason Dick depower all superheroes is Bruce's death, an Elseworld fantasy Batman went insane and keeps Dick's corpse by his throne, vampire hunter Dick couldn't bring himself to vanquish vampire Batman, even though he killed his parents. The whole Owlman subplot in Forever Evil to get a Dick Grayson to replace his.

----------


## Drako

> Rather than Dick as a Multiversal Constant of being similar too each other and innately good because *Deathwing* and Nightwing New Order exist, it's more correct to say that Dynamic Duo is the Multiversal Constant. Good and evil, living or dead, past or future, because a Dick Grayson is always paired with a Batman, even crossing earths  and crossing time, such as Batman One Million with present Dick, the vampire Batman and vampire hunter Dick, Thomas Wayne Batman and civilian Earth 2 Dick, the robot Batman and Little League Dick.


Neither versions of Deathwing are actually Dick Grayson. And the New Order Nightwing wasn't a bad person.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Neither versions of Deathwing are actually Dick Grayson. And the New Order Nightwing wasn't a bad person.


I know the latest one isn't but who's the first one?

----------


## Drako

> I know the latest one isn't but who's the first one?


This weird dude:

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Deathwing_(Team_Titans)

----------


## Restingvoice

> This weird dude:
> 
> https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Deathwing_(Team_Titans)


Oh I thought he's an alternate universe Nightwing

----------


## Drako

> Oh I thought he's an alternate universe Nightwing


I don't blame you, his story is a mess.

----------


## Fergus

> Season 4 of titans confirmed


Hope this season's better

----------


## Ascended

> I don't blame you, his story is a mess.


The entire Team Titans era is just a rabbit hole to Wonderland, with no logic or sense to be found anywhere. 

But I do like the "multiverse Deathwing" even if we've never actually had that. Has Seeley ever talked about his original plans for his Deathwing? I heard that it *was* going to be a multiverse thing (Dick's visions when he's stabbed seem to confirm it) but DC shot down the idea part-way through, or something.

----------


## Drako

Hey, look what made a comeback in today's issue of Tomasi's Detective Comics.

----------


## Godlike13

Cool, but  please no more skydiving.

----------


## L.H.

> Hey, look what made a comeback in today's issue of Tomasi's Detective Comics.


Yeah, Tomasi is true to his word. We had Dick and *spoilers:*
 Damian 
*end of spoilers* in the same issue, I'm excited. 

What's wrong with skydiving? How was he supposed to reach a boat otherwise?

@Restingvoice: thanks for your answer about Timothy Fox

----------


## Badou

It is kind of pathetic how Dick just falls right in line after being Ric for two years, but it is what you expect from Nightwing now. Just uninspiring stories and zero creativity, lol. We have to wait until March now until the possibility of things getting any better, but I don't have any confidence they will at this point.

----------


## Pohzee

We know Snyder is coming. Gotham or not, it’s the biggest spotlight Dick has been given in nearly a decade. There’s no need to hedge on being hopeful. Good things are on the way.

----------


## Claude

> Hey, look what made a comeback in today's issue of Tomasi's Detective Comics.


I've not been reading 'Tec - is it worth picking up this week for Dick/a story that looks like Dick will be a support player in? Or is basically a cameo?

----------


## Drako

> I've not been reading 'Tec - is it worth picking up this week for Dick/a story that looks like Dick will be a support player in? Or is basically a cameo?


He appears in like 3 pages, helping Bruce. That's it.

----------


## qwazer07

Don't read Batgirl. WASTE OF MONEY. I told you guys numerous times. Babs is a bad and boring love interest. Babs is someone who puts him down and holds him back. Our boy is meant to fly. Give him Zatanna. Please  :Wink:

----------


## Konja7

> Don't read Batgirl. WASTE OF MONEY. I told you guys numerous times. Babs is a bad and boring love interest. Babs is someone who puts him down and holds him back. Our boy is meant to fly. Give him Zatanna. Please


Zatanna was Bruce's love interest at some point. I don't think she would be the best option.

----------


## qwazer07

> Zatanna was Bruce's love interest at some point. I don't think she would be the best option.


Retcon? Come on. DC has done it before. This time it will actually be good. Bludhaven could get more spooky.

----------


## qwazer07

Anyway, Nightwing is back. I'm back. Glad to be back. I am here to back my boi. The back-to-back champion of all time every time, Dick Grayson.

----------


## Tzigone

> Zatanna was Bruce's love interest at some point. I don't think she would be the best option.


I agree completely. Ideally, two members of the same family should not date the same person.  And I do ship him with Barbara, and wouldn't want magic to be a major part of his story, anyway.  And I think it'd be better for Zee not to be mired in Bats.

Though, was she ever Batman's love interest in main-universe in continuity in the comics?  I know she was in animated verse.

----------


## Frontier

> Hey, look what made a comeback in today's issue of Tomasi's Detective Comics.


I like seeing Dick with his own gear.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Don't read Batgirl. WASTE OF MONEY. I told you guys numerous times. Babs is a bad and boring love interest. Babs is someone who puts him down and holds him back. Our boy is meant to fly. Give him Zatanna. Please


Wasn't Babs there watching over him all the while when he was in a coma? Bab's or [insert female character name] can be good and interesting if the writer wishes it.

Right now though I just need the title to focus on Dick fully returning to his old self and prefer DC focus on stories that build up the character and his relationships[not romantic].

DC should be putting effort into building a stable Nightwing support staff. Shipping can come later.

----------


## WonderNight

> Don't read Batgirl. WASTE OF MONEY. I told you guys numerous times. Babs is a bad and boring love interest. Babs is someone who puts him down and holds him back. Our boy is meant to fly. Give him Zatanna. Please


Yeah I like dick and babs as friends but not love interest. Because as a love interest babs locks dick into Gotham and in Gotham dick is just redundant and batman's lieutenant.

----------


## Tzigone

> Yeah I like dick and babs as friends but not love interest. Because as a love interest babs locks dick into Gotham and in Gotham dick is just redundant and batman's lieutenant.


Ah, but I think Barbara should leave Gotham, too.  I don't like her as Batman's lieutenant, either. I hate that she was retconned to his protege.  Honestly, Tim and Steph will likely have to go, too, fairly soon. As long as they stay there, they stay subordinate to Batman. That's not good.  They should leave for their own cities in adulthood if they are ever going to be full-on solo heroes instead of Batman's soldiers.  Little more on the fence on preBoot Cass and when she should leave, but don't know current Cass enough to say.

----------


## Digifiend

Batgirl #50 does set up a potential way to Babs to move away - while rallying with a reluctant Congresswoman Alejo, and after managing to get Jim Gordon on side, she gets asked if she's considered going to Washington. They meant that she should run for office herself. She was a Congresswoman in the 1970s, could that happen again? Of course she wouldn't be the only superhero in Washington, as that's also Wonder Woman's base.

----------


## Ascended

I would very much be fine with Babs getting back into politics (especially if she returns as Oracle instead of the ever-redundant Batgirl). Though odds are she'd run as a House representative and remain in Gotham most of the time.

So 'Tec is where Rocafort's been hiding huh? Pages look good, though it pisses me off that the best Nightwing (art *or* writing) is never in his own series.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> I agree completely. Ideally, two members of the same family should not date the same person.  And I do ship him with Barbara, and wouldn't want magic to be a major part of his story, anyway.  And I think it'd be better for Zee not to be mired in Bats.
> 
> Though, was she ever Batman's love interest in main-universe in continuity in the comics?  I know she was in animated verse.


She was Dick's (short term) love interest in animation too - just not the same continuity.

----------


## Avi

Nice to see Dick in Tec. Looked good and I hope he stays around. I'm not mad at Tomasi for ignoring Ric. There were enough opportunities for other writers to handle the fallout and they didn't (at least not with good writing imo, except for Williamson in JL), so I don't expect him to deal with it even if I'm crossing my fingers that Dick and Damian will interact in Tec (if they aren't going to in NW #77) and have a conversation. That Dick still hasn't asked about him is a travesty, then again he's still never met Jon so whatever, I guess.

Batgirl... Oh, lord. That conversation didn't belong into the book at all imo. Bea has appeared more in Batgirl since the Ric arc than Dick has. And the whole "actions speak louder than words do" theme in regards to Dick just straight up ignored how they brought him back. He got flung into Joker War the second he got his memories back. He listened to Barbara even if he disagreed with her in #75. And the "Bea wouldn't like to hear you talking to me like that"? What is wrong with that writer? Those characters aren't insecure teenagers!

----------


## Godlike13

You mean like how Babs did all the work to bring him back, despite being rejected and attack by him. Dick should have to do some work to repair his relationship with the only person who seemed to give a shit and tried to help. But he's still Bea obsessed. He's all focused on keeping her in his life, and resentful towards pretty much everyone else.

----------


## Badou

Well in his own words Bea is stronger and more amazing than 100 Nightwings. So abandoning everything and everyone one for some stranger basically was clearly the right call on his part.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> We know Snyder is coming. Gotham or not, it’s the biggest spotlight Dick has been given in nearly a decade. There’s no need to hedge on being hopeful. Good things are on the way.


Snyder is probably the only writer left at DC that has any real interest in writing Dick's character. Outside those like a Seeley that had their turn and don't want to go back I don't think anyone else has any interest other than a cameo or just doing the bare minimum. So I want to believe Snyder's story will be good, but I still have some doubts about what he's said so far about it. Maybe if we get an artist attached to it I'll think a little more positively, but not much lately has me thinking that way.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah I like dick and babs as friends but not love interest. Because as a love interest babs locks dick into Gotham and in Gotham dick is just redundant and batman's lieutenant.


Babs doesnt do that Batman does

----------


## Konja7

> Ah, but I think Barbara should leave Gotham, too.  I don't like her as Batman's lieutenant, either. I hate that she was retconned to his protege.  Honestly, Tim and Steph will likely have to go, too, fairly soon. As long as they stay there, they stay subordinate to Batman. That's not good.  They should leave for their own cities in adulthood if they are ever going to be full-on solo heroes instead of Batman's soldiers.  Little more on the fence on preBoot Cass and when she should leave, but don't know current Cass enough to say.


Dick and Barbara will be Batman's lieutenant while they are part of Batman's editorial. It doesn't matter if they left Gotham, their stories will still be dependent on Batman. 

Even if it seems that they are being independent for an arc or story, that would be an illusion. After all, Batman editorial can use them for Batman anytime they want.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Ah, but I think Barbara should leave Gotham, too.  I don't like her as Batman's lieutenant, either. I hate that she was retconned to his protege.  Honestly, Tim and Steph will likely have to go, too, fairly soon. As long as they stay there, they stay subordinate to Batman. That's not good.  They should leave for their own cities in adulthood if they are ever going to be full-on solo heroes instead of Batman's soldiers.  Little more on the fence on preBoot Cass and when she should leave, but don't know current Cass enough to say.


Honestly, they made a brand new map just for Burnside as a district of Gotham across the bridge in the mainland because there's no place left within the 3 islands, they should've just made it a new town. 

Then again, Bristol, the Manor, and Kane Estate are all in the mainland and counted as a part of Gotham

----------


## Avi

> Snyder is probably the only writer left at DC that has any real interest in writing Dick's character. Outside those like a Seeley that had their turn and don't want to go back I don't think anyone else has any interest other than a cameo or just doing the bare minimum. So I want to believe Snyder's story will be good, but I still have some doubts about what he's said so far about it. Maybe if we get an artist attached to it I'll think a little more positively, but not much lately has me thinking that way.


I mean, the interest was pretty much punched out of them by editorial... so there is to hoping it might get better thanks to the changes DC is going through. Dick's writers up to Ric had good ideas. Even Percy was coming around after his first arc. The second someone glimpsed that writers wanted to do something bigger with Dick it was snuffed out.

----------


## Badou

> I mean, the interest was pretty much punched out of them by editorial... so there is to hoping it might get better thanks to the changes DC is going through. Dick's writers up to Ric had good ideas. Even Percy was coming around after his first arc. The second someone glimpsed that writers wanted to do something bigger with Dick it was snuffed out.


I don't think many writers are that interested in Nightwing. So I have doubts it will get any better because I don't think Nightwing is positioned well in DC to produce good stories, but maybe I'll be wrong. Dunno. My gut tells me that come March, or whenever we get some announcements post Future State, that the Nightwing book is just going to be the same stuff. Since it has been a long time since Didio was let go and there has been zero evidence that DC looks at Nightwing any differently than they did before. I need to see some change before I believe it.

Even a Seeley didn't want to write Nightwing at first because he had to use stuff like Bludhaven and Blockbuster. It's a problem when a writer that was already writing the character is hesitant to continue writing him because of his baggage, and a Percy I had issues with because he mostly just had a story idea about technology and slapped Nightwing on it kind of awkwardly. Like with having Dick be anti-technology and technology illiterate to try and fit him in the story he wanted to tell. Obviously I would have much preferred that story over the Ric stuff though, lol. 

I was actually thinking about Percy's run the other day because I reread the Who is Donna Troy story since I was in the mood to read an actual GOOD Dick Grayson story since it has been so long, haha. That is probably the last great Dick as Robin story ever made which is a bit sad, but in it I noticed how he used computers and even science to try and figure out Donna's mystery. There is actually a panel of him at a science station. It struck me how strange that felt because you don't see Dick like that anymore because of how diffused the Robin identity/characters are now were Dick gets pigeonholed into "the Robin that can do flips well" so him using computers or science are completely absent from his modern stories, but if you try and have him use computers or science now I bet readers would say it is out of place because they have been conditioned for so long to only read the character one way.

----------


## Konja7

> I agree completely. Ideally, two members of the same family should not date the same person.  And I do ship him with Barbara, and wouldn't want magic to be a major part of his story, anyway.  And I think it'd be better for Zee not to be mired in Bats.
> 
> Though, was she ever Batman's love interest in main-universe in continuity in the comics?  I know she was in animated verse.


I think Bruce and Zatanna have a romance in main continuity. I didn't even know they have a romance in animated verse.

----------


## Konja7

> I don't think many writers are that interested in Nightwing. So I have doubts it will get any better because I don't think Nightwing is positioned well in DC to produce good stories, but maybe I'll be wrong. Dunno. My gut tells me that come March, or whenever we get some announcements post Future State, that the Nightwing book is just going to be the same stuff. Since it has been a long time since Didio was let go and there has been zero evidence that DC looks at Nightwing any differently than they did before. I need to see some change before I believe it.
> 
> Even a Seeley didn't want to write Nightwing at first because he had to use stuff like Bludhaven and Blockbuster. It's a problem when a writer that was already writing the character is hesitant to continue writing him because of his baggage, and a Percy I had issues with because he mostly just had a story idea about technology and slapped Nightwing on it kind of awkwardly. Like with having Dick be anti-technology and technology illiterate to try and fit him in the story he wanted to tell. Obviously I would have much preferred that story over the Ric stuff though, lol. 
> 
> I was actually thinking about Percy's run the other day because I reread the Who is Donna Troy story since I was in the mood to read an actual GOOD Dick Grayson story since it has been so long, haha. That is probably the last great Dick as Robin story ever made which is a bit sad, but in it I noticed how he used computers and even science to try and figure out Donna's mystery. There is actually a panel of him at a science station. It struck me how strange that felt because you don't see Dick like that anymore because of how diffused the Robin identity/characters are now were Dick gets pigeonholed into "the Robin that can do flips well" so him using computers or science are completely absent from his modern stories, but if you try and have him use computers or science now I bet readers would say it is out of place because they have been conditioned for so long to only read the character one way.


Yeah. I've remembered people saying Dick as Robin in Young Justice takes from Tim, because he was good with technology. 

Dick having a lively and laid back personality wasn't part of NTT either. He was pretty stoic and serious at that time.

----------


## Pohzee

Yeah using technology isn't a character trait you steal in this day an age. Unless someone decided to write Dick as Amish that is...

----------


## bearman

Does anyone know if Dick is slated to join the Justice League proper?

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah using technology isn't a character trait you steal in this day an age. Unless someone decided to write Dick as Amish that is...


LoL, right.

----------


## Digifiend

> Does anyone know if Dick is slated to join the Justice League proper?


Unlikely as long as Batman is on the team. He should either lead an adult Titans team... or maybe a secondary JLA team. But he won't even make the main JL roster as long as Bruce is there.

----------


## Claude

> Unlikely as long as Batman is on the team. He should either lead an adult Titans team... or maybe a secondary JLA team. But he won't even make the main JL roster as long as Bruce is there.


Whilst I agree, my new hot take is that next time they redo the League's origin then Dick should have been with it from the start. Batman And Robin, The Dynamic Duo.

----------


## Ascended

I dont even want Nightwing on the League. That's Bruce's team, and Dick being there would likely only further cement the idea of Dick being nothing but Bat-lite. 

I actually think Dick should be one of the League's greatest critics. Not someone who is just all anti-League all the time, but someone who won't be blinded by the League's fame and status, who understands the kind of pressure they face, and will not only expect the highest possible moral/ethical standards from them but also get in the League's face when the team starts to slip. 

There aren't a ton of people who could stand in front of the Justice League and tell them they're not doing their jobs well enough, that they're letting things slide and compromising....and of the few who would actually say those things, Dick's one of the few who everyone would actually listen to.

----------


## CrimsonEchidna

> You mean like how Babs did all the work to bring him back, despite being rejected and attack by him. Dick should have to do some work to repair his relationship with the only person who seemed to give a shit and tried to help. But he's still Bea obsessed. He's all focused on keeping her in his life, and resentful towards pretty much everyone else.


Having read the issue proper it comes off as victim blaming, sorry. Dude got shot in the head, lost his memories, had his mind manipulated by the Court of Owls, and then Brainwashed into becoming Joker's henchman. I think it can be forgiven if he didn't act like himself through all of that. 

There was a better way to write that scene. Like maybe have Babs acknowledge that she know she isn't being fair but she still needs some space and hopes Dick accepts that. I think that comes off way better than punching down over something he had no control over.

----------


## Frontier

> Having read the issue proper it comes off as victim blaming, sorry. Dude got shot in the head, lost his memories, had his mind manipulated by the Court of Owls, and then Brainwashed into becoming Joker's henchman. I think it can be forgiven if he didn't act like himself through all of that. 
> 
> There was a better way to write that scene. Like maybe have Babs acknowledge that she know she isn't being fair but she still needs some space and hopes Dick accepts that. I think that comes off way better than punching down over something he had no control over.


Babs was being way too self-righteous and ungrateful to practically everyone but the domestic terrorist boyfriend in that issue in my opinion.

----------


## Godlike13

What are you talking about, Ric was fine though. He wasn't a victim. Ric was just who he was, and who he still wants to be  :Stick Out Tongue: . She’s the jerk for wanting him back, but there is no accountability for him being a weak willed moron, criticizing everyone for not accepting who he was and what he wanted, while playing puppet boy to everyone and trying to kill her. Ric the perpetual victim. That didn't see himself as a victim, and rejected anyone who did. Even with his memories back Dick resents them, and pretty much anyone that isn't Bea. 
Dude tried to kill her cause him and his girlfriend were too delusional and insensitive to listen to her in the first place and guilted her off. Ya he was brainwashed, but that’s exactly my point. He was messed in the head to begin with. First Babs is criticized and guilt tripped for not accepting Ric, now she’s being mean for not giving Dick a pass for what he did as Ric. Just like she’s the bad guy for wanting him to be himself. It’s ridiculous. What, she should just continue to be subservient to Nightwing’s writers whims. They conveniently contort Babs to help the express what they want to forcefully impose on readers, but it’s Ric’s writers stupid narrative with here that you guys are defending here lol.  

That whole issue was heavy handed in execution, but I still respect the intent there. Other creators should push back against Nightwing’s current crap. What Babs tells him is actually rather meta. He’s got his memories back, yet he still wants to be like Ric. The only thing that has been recognizable about his character in his book is the suit he didn’t want to put on. And if they want to get readers interested in him again they need to do the work then with him. Prove that he’s not just a haven for bad creative, and put in the work to produce things of actual quality with him.
From the start of Ric Babs was the audience surrogate there, and they treated the audience like poop, well now his audience surrogate is just telling him what needs to be done for him to be a viable character again. Just take what she tells him and apply the audience to it. You want an audience back in your life. Do the work. Earn their friendship. Maybe even ditch the constant reminder that is Bea. Otherwise people have other stuff to do.

----------


## WonderNight

> Babs doesnt do that Batman does


What? Everything about babs is gotham and Batman, that's her life. Even her superhero id has bat in it same as batman and she lives and works in gotham. So please tell me how babs does not lock dick into gotham and doesn't get in the way of dick independence? And no "I like them together" is not an answer.

----------


## Rac7d*

> What? Everything about babs is gotham and Batman, that's her life. Even her superhero id has bat in it same as batman and she lives and works in gotham. So please tell me how babs does not lock dick into gotham and doesn't get in the way of dick independence? And no "I like them together" is not an answer.


Oracle and Nightwing have worked together out side of Gotham
Collaboration with the Titans 

Only Bruce centers dick in Gotham

----------


## bearman

I agree there’s no place for Dick on the League with Bruce these. But Bucec is hugely overexposed... let his protege step in, do everything Batman does on the team, and do it with good humor and grace. MUCH better team dynamics.

----------


## Avi

> I actually think Dick should be one of the League's greatest critics. Not someone who is just all anti-League all the time, but someone who won't be blinded by the League's fame and status, who understands the kind of pressure they face, and will not only expect the highest possible moral/ethical standards from them but also get in the League's face when the team starts to slip. 
> 
> There aren't a ton of people who could stand in front of the Justice League and tell them they're not doing their jobs well enough, that they're letting things slide and compromising....and of the few who would actually say those things, Dick's one of the few who everyone would actually listen to.


I like that idea a lot. And he has done it before. Can't see it organically working in the current universe, though. The JL are framed too godlike at the moment and Dick needs his ties to the wider DCU back first. Apart from Clark, maybe Diana thanks to that one Titans Annual and Cyborg thanks to him slowly being an ex-Titan again, Dick has no pull over the Leaguers. He's only been portrayed as the tag-along Robin in the recent stories.

----------


## Ascended

> I like that idea a lot. And he has done it before. Can't see it organically working in the current universe, though. The JL are framed too godlike at the moment and Dick needs his ties to the wider DCU back first. Apart from Clark, maybe Diana thanks to that one Titans Annual and Cyborg thanks to him slowly being an ex-Titan again, Dick has no pull over the Leaguers. He's only been portrayed as the tag-along Robin in the recent stories.


All very true. The "Nightwing seal of approval" that supposedly crosses multiverses and makes even a Superman stop and take notice....doesn't seem to extend to the offices of DC Comics.  :Frown:  

I still hope better days are coming. New people in charge, new directives and goals, and goals that align well with Dick's larger media profile......if we're going to escape the bullsh*t and get a proper Nightwing who's capable and respected, this is the time. Might take a while for DC's plans to take effect and reach the shelf, but if a crew at DC is gonna fix Nightwing I'm hoping it's these new guys. We just have to wait and see what they offer.

----------


## Avi

Reading the Dark Multiverse Hush tale was pretty enjoyable. It also makes me kind of hopeful that DC and/or the devs won't dismiss Dick's connection to the CoO in the upcoming video game the way it happened in the animated movie. The Talon design wasn't bad... looking at it I wish they would have used something similar in Batman: Ninja with Nightwing colors. Maybe it's just the scarf and the sword but I'm getting a steampunk-ninja vibe.  

Justice League continues to be quite good in its character work. It deals with more of the amnesia aftermath this time. Dick's bout of *spoilers:*
 self-doubt was over a bit too suddenly to feel organic but it seems to me as if JL is supposed to bring back the Nightwing others have trust in and look to as a leader, so that's good.
*end of spoilers*




> All very true. The "Nightwing seal of approval" that supposedly crosses multiverses and makes even a Superman stop and take notice....doesn't seem to extend to the offices of DC Comics.


Well said. Here is to hoping!

----------


## Godlike13

JL was giving me IC vibes.

----------


## Shadowcat

Haven’t picked it up yet, but is New Order any good?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Havent picked it up yet, but is New Order any good?


It was fun

----------


## Godlike13

> Haven’t picked it up yet, but is New Order any good?


It was different. I didn’t hate it, and I was glad to see Higgins get some redemption on it.

----------


## Pohzee

> JL was giving me IC vibes.


Identity Crisis? Infinite Crisis? Haven't got a chance to read it because it was uploaded was a Wonder Woman book on the DC app or something.

----------


## Godlike13

Infinite Crisis. With the tower and everything.

----------


## Shadowcat

Good to hear. I just bought the first 50 issues of the Rebirth era, as well as the Joker War tie-ins. Hope I love it, as Dick has always been one of my favorite male characters.

----------


## WonderNight

Nightwing should keep his horse from JL, paint it black and blue and ride it across the dcu stoping bad guys.

----------


## Ascended

> Haven’t picked it up yet, but is New Order any good?


I thought it was pretty decent. 

My biggest issue with New Order is that it's a story about Dick trapped in a moral dilemma where compromise *had* to be made and there were no good options. And I rarely enjoy those stories because these characters aren't built to operate in shades of gray. I read the book....oh, just as Percy was starting to prove that he wasn't going to have a great handle on Nightwing, I guess, and I was really hoping for a big, classic, awesome Nightwing story. And I didn't get that. What I got was a interesting and fairly compelling story about Dick who had seen his entire life defined by a situation where he only had crappy options. 

But I thought it was interesting, fairly well written, and had solid art. Dick "sounded" right, if you adjust your expectations slightly to account for his position and the state of the world. I'd recommend it, but with the caveat that this isn't going to be a typical story of binary superhero morality where the good guys do good things and the bad guys do bad things. I got a little bit of an 80's deconstruction vibe from it, actually. But I'd recommend it, especially since good Nightwing has been so hard to find the last couple years.

----------


## Rac7d*

https://toyswonderland.com/collectio...ectible-figure

This looks great

----------


## Jackalope89

> I thought it was pretty decent. 
> 
> My biggest issue with New Order is that it's a story about Dick trapped in a moral dilemma where compromise *had* to be made and there were no good options. And I rarely enjoy those stories because these characters aren't built to operate in shades of gray. I read the book....oh, just as Percy was starting to prove that he wasn't going to have a great handle on Nightwing, I guess, and I was really hoping for a big, classic, awesome Nightwing story. And I didn't get that. What I got was a interesting and fairly compelling story about Dick who had seen his entire life defined by a situation where he only had crappy options. 
> 
> But I thought it was interesting, fairly well written, and had solid art. Dick "sounded" right, if you adjust your expectations slightly to account for his position and the state of the world. I'd recommend it, but with the caveat that this isn't going to be a typical story of binary superhero morality where the good guys do good things and the bad guys do bad things. I got a little bit of an 80's deconstruction vibe from it, actually. But I'd recommend it, especially since good Nightwing has been so hard to find the last couple years.


And to add onto that, the ending, unlike most main continuity series right now, was actually pretty hopeful and optimistic.

----------


## Drako

> https://toyswonderland.com/collectio...ectible-figure
> 
> This looks great


Holy sh... i wish i had the money to buy this right now.

----------


## Restingvoice

> https://toyswonderland.com/collectio...ectible-figure
> 
> This looks great


...I'm about to become one of those otaku

----------


## Rac7d*

I love them both

----------


## Shadowcat

What have been the standout runs/storylines during the Rebirth era for everyone? I just finished the Dick/Babs/Raptor issue. Trying not to get too far ahead, since Im still waiting for the Red Hood books to arrive (1-25 should be here tomorrow).

----------


## Godlike13

The Raptor issues are the best Nightwing stuff during Rebirth.

----------


## Avi

The collectibles are looking good. Nearly as good as the samurai collectible.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> What have been the standout runs/storylines during the Rebirth era for everyone? I just finished the Dick/Babs/Raptor issue. Trying not to get too far ahead, since I’m still waiting for the Red Hood books to arrive (1-25 should be here tomorrow).


I agree with Godlike13 that the Raptor arcs are great. Especially the first “two” arcs that are basically one arc. The later issues were good too but not as outstanding.

Though for me Humphries’ arc is the best of Rebirth. I read it collected, which might have added to my enjoyment. The villain was great (and should come back), the supporting characters stood out, especially Guppy, and Detective Svoboda was given some spotlight, which only felt right.

I also think Nightwing #9 and #43 are great single-issue stories. As are most stories that focus on Dick’s non-bat-relationships.

----------


## Godlike13

I struggle with the Humphries’ arc. It kind of repeated the same loop, and didn't really accomplish or say anything with Dick. Except for the Gym thing. Which was like, ehh, not exactly my favorite perception on Dick to lean on. But Judge was interesting and it did try to add and build on the new Bludhaven.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I struggle with the Humphries arc. It kind of repeated the same loop, and didn't really accomplish or say anything with Dick. Except for the Gym thing. Which was like, ehh, not exactly my favorite perception on Dick to lean on. But Judge was interesting and it did try to add and build on the new Bludhaven.


We didnt exactly see that one thru

----------


## Pohzee

If the Judge arc had kept Chang on the whole time it would have gone down as one of my favorites and an instant recommendation. Instead, it was merely rather enjoyable. 

So much of what sold it for me was Chang's vibrant art. The neon pinks of his Blüdhaven perfectly compliment his light blue suit. For what it's worth, the Judge's look was so slick that it got me to start listening to Father John Misty's music for a bit.

Better Than Batman and Rise of the Raptor are by far the best Nightwing stories of the Rebirth era, and quite possibly ever.

----------


## Avi

Speaking about the art. I think both Better Than Batman/Rise of Raptor and The Untouchable suffer a bit because they didn't get the creme de la creme of art, but the former at least had Fernandez for the whole arc(s). Chang's and Campbell's art didn't complement each other very well.

That being said The Judge arc/The Untouchable pretty much encompasses to me who Dick Grayson is in a lot of ways. It helps that it spotlights Dick as Robin and as Nightwing (+ his college time). It's my comfort TPB, lol.

I wonder if Raptor was partially so impactful because Seeley doesn't often invent completely new characters? He was primarily the one to bring all the Wildstorm characters into Grayson, King and he used a lot of older characters to fill Spyral, then he tried to reinvent the pre-existing Blüd characters and even Pigeon wasn't entirely new...

----------


## Claude

> Speaking about the art. I think both Better Than Batman/Rise of Raptor and The Untouchable suffer a bit because they didn't get the creme de la creme of art, but the former at least had Fernandez for the whole arc(s). Chang's and Campbell's art didn't complement each other very well.
> 
> That being said The Judge arc/The Untouchable pretty much encompasses to me who Dick Grayson is in a lot of ways. It helps that it spotlights Dick as Robin and as Nightwing (+ his college time). It's my comfort TPB, lol.
> 
> I wonder if Raptor was partially so impactful because Seeley doesn't often invent completely new characters? He was primarily the one to bring all the Wildstorm characters into Grayson, King and he used a lot of older characters to fill Spyral, then he tried to reinvent the pre-existing Blüd characters and even Pigeon wasn't entirely new...


I can't remember who it was who speculated that "Better Than Batman" was a repurposing of the plans for a later arc of "Grayson", with Tiger in the Raptor role. Charismatic older man who's not from Bruce's world of privilege who earns Dick's - and the readers' - respect before dragging Dick into murkier and murkier waters...

Found it quite a convincing theory at the time - and I'm sure there was some talk early on in Grayson that there was a long term plan to give Dick a definitive Villain, at about the same time they were bringing Tiger in.

----------


## WonderNight

I just hope if dick is to keep bludhaven that DC at least let bludhaven keep its Vegas look and feel. It give bludhaven an identity of its own.

----------


## Pohzee

> Speaking about the art. I think both Better Than Batman/Rise of Raptor and The Untouchable suffer a bit because they didn't get the creme de la creme of art, but the former at least had Fernandez for the whole arc(s). Chang's and Campbell's art didn't complement each other very well.
> 
> That being said The Judge arc/The Untouchable pretty much encompasses to me who Dick Grayson is in a lot of ways. It helps that it spotlights Dick as Robin and as Nightwing (+ his college time). It's my comfort TPB, lol.
> 
> I wonder if Raptor was partially so impactful because Seeley doesn't often invent completely new characters? He was primarily the one to bring all the Wildstorm characters into Grayson, King and he used a lot of older characters to fill Spyral, then he tried to reinvent the pre-existing Blüd characters and even Pigeon wasn't entirely new...


Fernandez is one of my favorite Nightwing artists. His pencils could be a but rushed sometimes due to semi-monthly shipping, but his storytelling was and is superb. The final issue of Rise of the Raptor he absolutely killed it. His recent Nightwing commissions on Twitter have been amazing, I'd love to have him back sometime. I loved Chang as well, I'd take him back too in a heartbeat.




> I can't remember who it was who speculated that "Better Than Batman" was a repurposing of the plans for a later arc of "Grayson", with Tiger in the Raptor role. Charismatic older man who's not from Bruce's world of privilege who earns Dick's - and the readers' - respect before dragging Dick into murkier and murkier waters...
> 
> Found it quite a convincing theory at the time - and I'm sure there was some talk early on in Grayson that there was a long term plan to give Dick a definitive Villain, at about the same time they were bringing Tiger in.


I was and am still pretty big on this theory. As a big fan of Grayson, I would love to see more of Tiger in Nightwing. The question now is how to handle him. Should he be a partner like in Rise of the Raptor, or should Spyral be returned to a semi-antagonistic organization that Dick competes with?

----------


## Drako

FUTURE STATE: NIGHTWING #2

 written by ANDREW CONSTANT
 art by NICOLA SCOTT
 cover by YASMINE PUTRI
 card stock variant cover by NICOLA SCOTT
 ON SALE 2/16/21
 $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | 2 OF 2 | FC | DC
 CARD STOCK COVER $4.99 US

It's an all-new dynamic for the Dynamic Duo when Nightwing and Gotham's mysterious new Batman join forces against the Magistrate. But when the totalitarian force controlling the city declares the two heroes their primary targets, Nightwing will need to call on the full force of his hidden resistance, including two Batgirls, Huntress, and Two-Face! But even then, will it be enough? Find out in this action-packed conclusion!

----------


## Pohzee

I don't know how all of the Nightwing solicitations get posted here before I can find the whole solicits anywhere online, but I do appreciate it! Still not super interested in Nightwing: Future State beyond Scott's art. But I am looking forward to the Titans one.

----------


## Drako

> I don't know how all of the Nightwing solicitations get posted here before I can find the whole solicits anywhere online, but I do appreciate it! Still not super interested in Nightwing: Future State beyond Scott's art. But I am looking forward to the Titans one.


I follow Newsarama on twitter, they usually the first site to post the solicits.
https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-future...vers-revealed/

----------


## Avi

I remember the rumors and speculations that surrounded Tiger and before Rebirth entered the picture I thought I could see the path they were going for, and Raptor and him definitely aren't that different in their thinking. I think team-ups with Tiger could go both ways depending on the situation and the goal either of them follows.




> Fernandez is one of my favorite Nightwing artists. His pencils could be a but rushed sometimes due to semi-monthly shipping, but his storytelling was and is superb. The final issue of Rise of the Raptor he absolutely killed it. His recent Nightwing commissions on Twitter have been amazing, I'd love to have him back sometime. I loved Chang as well, I'd take him back too in a heartbeat.


That's true. Fernandez definitely knew how to tell a story through art even then and he has only improved since. Another artist of that "era" I wouldn't mind seeing again is Minkyu Jung. 




> It's an all-new dynamic for the Dynamic Duo when Nightwing and Gotham's mysterious new Batman join forces against the Magistrate. But when the totalitarian force controlling the city declares the two heroes their primary targets, Nightwing will need to call on the full force of his hidden resistance, including *two Batgirls, Huntress, and Two-Face!* But even then, will it be enough? Find out in this action-packed conclusion!


The solicitation has me slightly more intrigued, but only slightly. I've sorely missed Helena and Dick interacting and the other three should be interesting as well. Especially if the Batgirls are Cass and Steph. At least it'll be a pretty Issue much like the January one.

----------


## WonderNight

I hope spyral comes back, such a cool corner of the dcu nightwing could make his own.

----------


## Digifiend

Previews for Nightwing #76:
https://aiptcomics.com/2020/11/13/dc...-nightwing-76/

and Teen Titans #47 (with narration from Dick):
https://aiptcomics.com/2020/11/13/dc...een-titans-47/

----------


## Restingvoice

They lost me at "Why me? Why am I getting shot? Why not Batman"

----------


## Avi

So I'm guessing Dick's narration of TT will be connected to the Last Tales and FS? If they say the thing missing is teaching, then they might as well just say "we need to be the X-Men". 

In the last weeks most of the books I have read have had some breaking the 4th wall and calling storylines out... The problem with Nightwing is that they just continue to be the problem and try to say "look how self-aware we are! Give us praise!" or at least that's how it seems to me.

----------


## Godlike13

> Previews for Nightwing #76:
> https://aiptcomics.com/2020/11/13/dc...-nightwing-76/


This is so bad. So let’s show for the 100th time how KG Beast shot Dick, that he was this guy that calculated and sniped Dick from however far away with out a word. But now here he is monologuing how he wants to shoot him. Why is he not shooting him then. What the hell is he waiting for there lol. This is so dumb. This just like with Cobb. Under Jurgens villains just become boring mustache twirling cliches that don’t make any sense. But that’s just how Jurgens is conditioned to write his bad guys, so that’s how he writes them. Even if it’s complete nonsense and uncharacteristic.

----------


## Avi

Nightwing will be in Death Metal #7. And he might actually get to do something?
https://twitter.com/GregCapullo/stat...30642379100161

----------


## Claude

> Nightwing will be in Death Metal #7. And he might actually get to do something?
> https://twitter.com/GregCapullo/stat...30642379100161


Woo! They've been leaning *heavily* on the fact that the current Justice League arc with him will have an impact on the end of the event, so hopefully this is a sign of that importance.

----------


## Badou

> Nightwing will be in Death Metal #7. And he might actually get to do something?
> https://twitter.com/GregCapullo/stat...30642379100161


No, he probably won't do anything other than what is shown in that image. Just be in a few panels fighting the Robin creatures. Just like with Metal, Death metal isn't a story where Nightwing has any kind of role in it. So I wouldn't go in expecting anything or get your hopes up. After this long we know who the story is focusing on and that isn't going to change last minute before the end.

----------


## Frontier

I finally read _Nightwing: Year One_. 

My random thoughts: 

- Is there any way to write a Batman and Robin breakup that doesn't end up making Batman look like a jerk? I guess not. I guess it's in-line with _Robin: Year One_ but he didn't feel that bad in _Batgirl: Year One._  That Robin anniversary story kind of had a nice twist where Bruce intentionally drove Dick away to help him grow, but I don't think that's what Dixon was going for here. 

- Matt Hagen had a kid? Huh. 

- I feel bad that Alfred gets stuck mediating between his kids. 

- When was the last time Dick and Boston Brand interacted? 

- I'd kind of prefer Bruce bringing Jason to the fold didn't involve practically kidnapping him...

- Nightwing and Batgirl's "date" was fun, even though it seemed like Dick was 100% okay with cheating on Kori up until Babs put a stop to it. Actually, considering what we know happens later on, I guess he was always comfortable cheating on Kori with Babs when it came down to it. 

- Babs follows "orders" better than Dick does? I kind of got that sense. Especially when she went along with the plan to pit Dick and Jason against each other for the "challenge" by basically tricking him.  

- First chronological appearance of Killer Croc was kind of random, but I guess it was a nod to the time when Croc was more of a crime boss than he is now. 

- I kind of see where fans come from with the issue of them re-contexualizing Jason as a "too confident" Robin who didn't take it seriously enough, but Dick did admit he thought Jason had the chops to be Robin by the end. 

- So, chronologically, where does this fit in with Judas Contract? Was Dick already Nightwing when Slade attacked him? Did he finish his business in Gotham and then rush off to save the Titans from HIVE?

----------


## Pohzee

There was that Detective Comics #1027 with Dick and Deadman.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I finally read _Nightwing: Year One_. 
> 
> My random thoughts: 
> 
> - Is there any way to write a Batman and Robin breakup that doesn't end up making Batman look like a jerk? I guess not. I guess it's in-line with _Robin: Year One_ but he didn't feel that bad in _Batgirl: Year One._  That Robin anniversary story kind of had a nice twist where Bruce intentionally drove Dick away to help him grow, but I don't think that's what Dixon was going for here. 
> 
> - Matt Hagen had a kid? Huh. 
> 
> - I feel bad that Alfred gets stuck mediating between his kids. 
> ...


It doeasn't fit t all. Nor Batman, nor Barbara, nor Jason  fit in Dick's live at the time he became Nightwing, it was a bad idea forced them in it. All of suden is not about growth but manipulation and betrayal. Awful story all around.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I finally read _Nightwing: Year One_. 
> 
> My random thoughts: 
> 
> - Is there any way to write a Batman and Robin breakup that doesn't end up making Batman look like a jerk? I guess not. I guess it's in-line with _Robin: Year One_ but he didn't feel that bad in _Batgirl: Year One._  That Robin anniversary story kind of had a nice twist where Bruce intentionally drove Dick away to help him grow, but I don't think that's what Dixon was going for here.


Pre-Crisis was probably the closest we'd get, at least because *both* Bruce and Dick were kind of acting like jerks and then talked it out like adults towards the end. Just reading the first chapter of this was enough to make me put the book down in disgust.

The Robin anniversary story was an improvement in comparison, but still not ideal.

----------


## Frontier

> Pre-Crisis was probably the closest we'd get, at least because *both* Bruce and Dick were kind of acting like jerks and then talked it out like adults towards the end. Just reading the first chapter of this was enough to make me put the book down in disgust.
> 
> The Robin anniversary story was an improvement in comparison, but still not ideal.


I mean, I think there was enough good in the story in-spite of that, but it's definitely not my favorite take on Bruce and Dick's relationship.

----------


## Badou

I didn't like Nightwing Year One. It just felt like such a big swing and miss compared to some of the other Year One series. Robin Year One wasn't perfect but good enough and Batgirl Year One was great I thought. The two read well together, but I hate how Nightwing Year One is still the default origin in most cases and completely took the agency from Dick's character. I find the whole thing just frustrating. Judas Contract being in continuity post crisis was always a bit weird. At times it felt like it was, or some version of it at least, but then with Nightwing it wasn't. We are still dealing with it now given that Lazarus Contract was their attempt at rewriting it for Rebirth. Nightwing's whole origin is such a mess now.


Anyway, something I do kind of like is the Nightwing costume in the Teen Titans Future State series. No interest in the series itself but the costume I like, haha. Hasn't been posted here I think and we get a better shot of it in the recent solicits. I think going back to the gold and blue color scheme while using New 52 design looks really fresh. It changes the feel from the mostly black design that I've gotten frustrated with lately. I don't like the blue on the current costume being so thin and I always disliked the bird motif on the Nightwing costumes or logo. The bird stuff to me always made it feel like a Robin derivative. Like they think "Dick was Robin before so obviously his new costume and identity should be bird related too". If that is their mindset then Dick should never have given up Robin in the first place. It's like when they wanted to make Nightwing red so all the current and former Robins would be red like Robin is. Just not a fan of it.

But with how awful the Ric story was Dick needs something fresh to put that whole disaster behind him. So a new costume with a new color scheme like the one here I think could be really fun.

----------


## Tsukiakari1203

future state looks fun

----------


## Godlike13

JL was, I don’t know. Look I like the character arc with Dick there, though not actually being tasked with this mission was a blow, but with these last 2 years as Ric I guess he shouldn’t have. He’s sucks, we get it, you guys won. Just maybe stop selling him then. Cause it’s just mean. Anyway, the character arc was cool and fair, but then they just ditch him for what this story means for Metal. So ya, the character arc was nice and all, it was the best Nightwing we got in a while, but in the end it was just goes nowhere appeasement. Someone left with name recognition to hold down JL while everyone is busy in Metal. Plus it just further convinces me that I don’t want Nightwing on the JL. It misses the point. There were so many opportunities to build the Titans up with this but no. Whatever. I guess for me JL was bittersweet. 

Nightwing was just trash. Honestly I’m out of words. It’s just more of the same awful crap from the same tapped out creator who is way past giving a crap. Poor Bruce was written so poorly too.

----------


## Drako

> I didn't like Nightwing Year One. It just felt like such a big swing and miss compared to some of the other Year One series. Robin Year One wasn't perfect but good enough and Batgirl Year One was great I thought. The two read well together, but I hate how Nightwing Year One is still the default origin in most cases and completely took the agency from Dick's character. I find the whole thing just frustrating. Judas Contract being in continuity post crisis was always a bit weird. At times it felt like it was, or some version of it at least, but then with Nightwing it wasn't. We are still dealing with it now given that Lazarus Contract was their attempt at rewriting it for Rebirth. Nightwing's whole origin is such a mess now.
> 
> 
> Anyway, something I do kind of like is the Nightwing costume in the Teen Titans Future State series. No interest in the series itself but the costume I like, haha. Hasn't been posted here I think and we get a better shot of it in the recent solicits. I think going back to the gold and blue color scheme while using New 52 design looks really fresh. It changes the feel from the mostly black design that I've gotten frustrated with lately. I don't like the blue on the current costume being so thin and I always disliked the bird motif on the Nightwing costumes or logo. The bird stuff to me always made it feel like a Robin derivative. Like they think "Dick was Robin before so obviously his new costume and identity should be bird related too". If that is their mindset then Dick should never have given up Robin in the first place. It's like when they wanted to make Nightwing red so all the current and former Robins would be red like Robin is. Just not a fan of it.
> 
> But with how awful the Ric story was Dick needs something fresh to put that whole disaster behind him. So a new costume with a new color scheme like the one here I think could be really fun.


I saw people advocating for him to have some yellow in his costume when this redesign by Kal Huset was circulating around on the internet and i actually agree. 



About the comics today, Justice League was good, but overal this mini arc didn't do much for me. I still want Williamson writing Nightwing in some capacity.

Nightwing wasn't THAT bad, they finaly closed the arc with Bea and Dick beat KGBeast pretty easly. You can cleary see Jurgens closing the door on this stupid run. Just one more to go.

----------


## Godlike13

Door should have been slammed shut already. Dragging their feet to close the door at this point is just another technique to drag it out even further, and keep from delivering any actual satisfaction to whatever readers are still left. They are not even closing it right, that’s why it was a bad idea to give Ric’s creators the last word as their perception on it has been off from the start. What Dick said to Bea should be the the truth, but instead they make it the lie so Dick could be the tortured hero like Batman they kept saying he wasn’t. I laughed seeing Dick cry. Seriously. First thing that came to my mind was his tears look delicious as he cries over his life lost as Ric. Get a clue already Ric writers. Crying over anything about Ric is so out of touch and at this point it’s just counterproductive. Dick ending the last remnant of Ric is something to be celebrated, not mourned. But we are never gonna get that from Ric’s writers. Cause that would be an awareness of their failure as creators. 

 Any momentum Dick’s return had is now pretty much dead so a going nowhere creator can close out his failed, all time lows, run. And there is still yet at least one more to go.

----------


## Drako

> I laughed seeing Dick cry. First thing that came to my mind was his tears are delicious as he cries over his life lost as Ric.


What a weird sentence.

I'm over being mad over this, there is no point for me. I'm just waiting to see what is next. December will have the end of Jurgens run and the solicits from March. 

Let's see what they have in store for us.

----------


## Godlike13

What’s next is more Jurgens.

----------


## Drako

> What’s next is more Jurgens.


Well, if this is true, then i just quit reading comics, at least Nightwing comics. I did it before, i can do it again.

----------


## Godlike13

It’s factually true. What’s next is another issue by Jurgens. What comes after that is Future State, and then it’s who knows but given the shape DC is in its a real bad time for Nightwing to be in such a poor marketability state. Jurgens closing out the year is what’s next with Nightwing though. Which is ridiculous that he’s even doing that given his performance on the title. And just can’t bode well.

----------


## sifighter

What appears to be next is Professor Grayson at Titans Academy....or whatever they will end up calling it. And if you think that is just a reference to Future State then go look up the ending to today's issue of Teen Titans.

----------


## Godlike13

Rather see try to find Damian, then jump on the Damian is bad bandwagon. He’s not really in a better position then Damian to offer or teach anyone anything. Which Future State looks like it will demonstrate...

----------


## Arsenal

> Door should have been slammed shut already. Dragging their feet to close the door at this point is just another technique to drag it out even further, and keep from delivering any actual satisfaction to whatever readers are still left. They are not even closing it right, that’s why it was a bad idea to give Ric’s creators the last word as their perception on it has been off from the start. What Dick said to Bea should be the the truth, but instead they make it the lie so Dick could be the tortured hero like Batman they kept saying he wasn’t. I laughed seeing Dick cry. Seriously. First thing that came to my mind was his tears look delicious as he cries over his life lost as Ric. Get a clue already Ric writers. Crying over anything about Ric is so out of touch and at this point it’s just counterproductive. Dick ending the last remnant of Ric is something to be celebrated, not mourned. But we are never gonna get that from Ric’s writers. Cause that would be an awareness of their failure as creators. 
> 
>  Any momentum Dick’s return had is now pretty much dead so a going nowhere creator can close out his failed, all time lows, run. And there is still yet at least one more to go.


They shoulda just saved his return for March in all honesty. Might've actually been able to do something with it instead of everybody just spinning their wheels until Future Slate starts.

----------


## Light of Justice

> Rather see try to find Damian, then jump on the Damian is bad bandwagon. He’s not really in a better position then Damian to offer or teach anyone anything. Which Future State looks like it will demonstrate...


Don't bash Dick for what he said and did on TT. He's just went amnesic, then when he came back he got note from Damian, and looks like his little brother entrusted them to him. The only chance he can know and assess the situation is only from Damian's note, and we don't know what was written on there (and also on Jon's note, which is frustrating. I mean, if they want to make a plot about Damian controlled people around him with some pieces of paper, can we at least know what was on the paper?). By no means Dick said that Damian is bad on Teen Titans, probably Damian said that he forced TT members on his note, or maybe he recalled the time when Damian kidnapped Kory, Beast Boy, and Raven to make TT. 




> And that remind me of something. Look guys, I loves Damian with Dick as much as you all. I love their connection, and their strong brothership borderline father-son relationship at some point. I love and heavily adore Dick who accept Damian as he is to be his Robin, all his effort to change Damian toward goodness, and his genuine love for Damian. But we can't count on Dick to be Damian's moral support right now. We can't just hope Dick will take Damian on his wing after his collision with Bruce, understand his actions and feelings, just expect him to accept Damian's actions. Dick is not family's private therapist. Heck he didn't even as bubbly and as patient like fandom often portrayed. He has his own morality, and that morality for sure disagree with all Damian's act. Besides, one of Damian's method in this terrible run is mind-wiping, and on Ric saga, which is equally terrible if not more, he got amnesic, lose his basic self, and has been brainwashing 3 times (Scarecrow, Court of Owl, and Joker). Honestly I can't see how Dick will accept and handle all Damian did in TT run without disregarding his own trauma after Ric saga. If somehow that happened, then Dc is adamant to make Dick Holy Saint or something.
> 
> Damian's problem is started with Bruce and has to end by Bruce. I love Damian but I also love Dick, so I don't want Dick to get roped into Damian and Bruce's mess, especially just after he gets his life back. It's like the time when people expect Dick to handle Jason's trauma, which is sadly I've encountered many of them. On Morrison run people want Dick to handle Jason's trauma and murderous rampage with power of love and family, and became angry when Dickbats put Jason in Arkham Asylum instead (which is actually a reasonable act on his capability as someone who tried to fill Bruce's presence on the cowl. 
> 
> On this thread, people's expectation for Dick to somehow fix Damian is honestly makes me wary, I am just afraid if Dick has negative response for Damian's act (which is understandable with his morality and after all the shit he went through), people will get heartbroken and turn to hate Dick instead.


And I've said it before on Damian's thread, don't count on Dick to bring Damian back or somehow fix Damian's problem. Damian is Bruce's responsibilities, and Dick just healed from his amnesic. Dick needs to sort his own life back first.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not counting on Dick to bring Damian back, DC wants to continue this Damian is bad bull, I’d just prefer to see it as Dick has made Damian his responsibility before. He’s the one who open the door for Damian, so one could argue Damian is also his responsibility. Dick had compassion for Damian before anyone else ever did, and invested in Damian. So there is precedence with Damian unlike with Jason. 

 But yes, Dick should sort out his own shambled life before he offers to try and teach others how to live theirs. Especially a bunch a kids who rescued the dude who shot Dick in the head so he can attack him yet again...

----------


## Rac7d*

> I didn't like Nightwing Year One. It just felt like such a big swing and miss compared to some of the other Year One series. Robin Year One wasn't perfect but good enough and Batgirl Year One was great I thought. The two read well together, but I hate how Nightwing Year One is still the default origin in most cases and completely took the agency from Dick's character. I find the whole thing just frustrating. Judas Contract being in continuity post crisis was always a bit weird. At times it felt like it was, or some version of it at least, but then with Nightwing it wasn't. We are still dealing with it now given that Lazarus Contract was their attempt at rewriting it for Rebirth. Nightwing's whole origin is such a mess now.
> 
> 
> Anyway, something I do kind of like is the Nightwing costume in the Teen Titans Future State series. No interest in the series itself but the costume I like, haha. Hasn't been posted here I think and we get a better shot of it in the recent solicits. I think going back to the gold and blue color scheme while using New 52 design looks really fresh. It changes the feel from the mostly black design that I've gotten frustrated with lately. I don't like the blue on the current costume being so thin and I always disliked the bird motif on the Nightwing costumes or logo. The bird stuff to me always made it feel like a Robin derivative. Like they think "Dick was Robin before so obviously his new costume and identity should be bird related too". If that is their mindset then Dick should never have given up Robin in the first place. It's like when they wanted to make Nightwing red so all the current and former Robins would be red like Robin is. Just not a fan of it.
> 
> But with how awful the Ric story was Dick needs something fresh to put that whole disaster behind him. So a new costume with a new color scheme like the one here I think could be really fun.


Red x all buff and big is weird lol

----------


## Avi

Haven't read Teen Titans yet and it doesn't seem as if I will want to. What a bunch of bs. And Nightwing is just tiring.

Justice League ended quite well, I think. It was enjoyable through to the end, which I can't say about a lot of other stories. Especially not Dick stories. I'd actually like to read one more Issue of these characters as JL working independently from Lex. I think they have potential. The JL worship Dick showed throughout the book wasn't my thing, though. He should have been in the hero game far sooner than at least half of them.

I agree that a little gold in Dick's costume would be great.

----------


## Journey

I feel like I was supposed to care that he dropped old girl but I didn't........ Also am I the only one who doesn't care for the multiple Nightwings concept? I miss the Grayson days...

----------


## Frontier

> I didn't like Nightwing Year One. It just felt like such a big swing and miss compared to some of the other Year One series. Robin Year One wasn't perfect but good enough and Batgirl Year One was great I thought. The two read well together, but I hate how Nightwing Year One is still the default origin in most cases and completely took the agency from Dick's character. I find the whole thing just frustrating. Judas Contract being in continuity post crisis was always a bit weird. At times it felt like it was, or some version of it at least, but then with Nightwing it wasn't. We are still dealing with it now given that Lazarus Contract was their attempt at rewriting it for Rebirth. Nightwing's whole origin is such a mess now.


Felt like the whole point of the story was Dick taking back his own agency, it just threw Bruce under the bus to do it. 



> I saw people advocating for him to have some yellow in his costume when this redesign by Kal Huset was circulating around on the internet and i actually agree. 
> 
> 
> 
> About the comics today, Justice League was good, but overal this mini arc didn't do much for me. I still want Williamson writing Nightwing in some capacity.
> 
> Nightwing wasn't THAT bad, they finaly closed the arc with Bea and Dick beat KGBeast pretty easly. You can cleary see Jurgens closing the door on this stupid run. Just one more to go.


I think this could work as a modernized Discowing costume. 



> Red x all buff and big is weird lol


Agreed.

----------


## Fergus

> They shoulda just saved his return for March in all honesty. Might've actually been able to do something with it instead of everybody just spinning their wheels until Future Slate starts.


The sceptic in me feels like the timing was more to gain goodwill for Tynion's Batman moreso than DC/BatOffice looking out for Dick's character.

The additional manipulation by Joker wasn't necessary and his return being tied to Joker War wasn't how I would have preferred it

----------


## Drako

Oh, Nightwing was also in Gotham Nights today.

----------


## Claude

> Oh, Nightwing was also in Gotham Nights today.


Thanks of the heads-up, haven't been regularly picking that up since Russell left. 

It's an interesting showing for Dick - on the one hand, it's basically a "dynamic duo" story with Dick as sidekick/partner rather than a solo hero guesting. On the other hand, he isn't made to look incompetent and in at least one area is significantly more knowledgeable than Bruce.

*spoilers:*
For my money, that's the real benefit of the Titans in Dick's mythology - that he would casually just know more about space and aliens than Bruce would, because one his closest friends/significant girlfriends was one.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## K. Jones

My morbid curiosity always getting the better of me because I'm a NIGHTWING fan, I did check out this KGBeast issue. And while it hit all the most dumb predictable beats, giving a full circle "unrevegengeance" moment where Nightwing beats up the Beast and cracks a joke, breaking the tension ... then proceeds to do to Bea what he's done to literally every girlfriend he's ever had in comics ... it just joins the long list of "wrapping up, moving on" stagnant runs of Nightwing, which sadly are more the norm. I feel like Nightwing spends more time as a book treading water than having inspired runs full of cool storytelling and creative choices. And that goes back ages. Hell, that goes back to Bronze Age Robin backups and New Teen Titans stories where everyone else in the gang has more interesting stories going on and Dick is just upon occasion disappearing, appearing to have changed his code of honor, but actually is just going undercover into whichever HIVE/Blood/Cult/Gang they're up against.

But the art was really nice in all three of the Nightwing appearances this week. Nice little reunion with the penciller from Tim Seeley's run, gorgeous (even with the ridiculous Metal costumes) JL art, and this was pretty pretty also.

----------


## RedQueen

Bea was fine, but just because the association with the Ric run, I'm not invested in the relationship. Now they closing off Ric lose threads I hope he can find a new groove somewhere.

----------


## Blue22

> I feel like I was supposed to care that he dropped old girl but I didn't........ Also am I the only one who doesn't care for the multiple Nightwings concept? I miss the Grayson days...


I kinda figured things were about to end between them. And I didn't expect to feel bad for her...But man that was a shitty way to let her go. And a shitty reason too. Like...No, Dick. Alfred was right. Bruce was wrong. You have several heroes who could easily prove him wrong, one of whom is your best friend. Don't start with that "Heroes can't find love with normal people" bullshit. Especially when she's not _that_ normal.

Ugggh...I wanted her to go away, and she did...But I don't like how she did lol

----------


## Badou

Bea was garbage. A complete nothing character that offered nothing to the story. I'll never understand why people defend her. She had no character beyond being "nice" and Dick magically fell deeply in love with her to the point where she was somehow the most important person to him in his life. It was completely unbelievable. Nothing was built up with their relationship and she has about as much depth as a spoon. At least with a Shawn she had some layers to her where she felt like an actual character but Bea had nothing. She is a textbook example of how not to create a love interest, imo. 

The whole issue was just pathetic. Two fucking years of this Ric nonsense and they can't even get the return of him being Dick again right. Still not one moment where Dick is BACK and HAPPY to have his memories returned to him. It's still him just wallowing in his own misery and missing his life as Ric. Jurgens doesn't get it at all. It's been two issues now where Dick is basically sad to be Nightwing again. Is Jurgens trying to make the reader feel bittersweet about Dick's time as Ric? WHO CARES! What kind of fan wants to read that after 2 years of awful stories with Ric? Dick being back should have been a celebration not Dick being sad and crying that he can't be with the "love of his life" Bea because he is a superhero again. He was basically running around as a superhero as Ric while with her, but now it is an issue? I'm thrilled to be rid of her and the dumb Nightwings, and KGBeast was pathetic like usual, but that whole mess with Alfred was just bizarre. So the only thing Dick learned from this whole disaster is that he can't be happy and have normal relationships just like Batman? That should put the nail in the coffin for those who think Jurgens understands Dick's character at all. I guess now Dick wont ever date anyone that isn't a super powered character that can take care of themselves now, right? lol

As for Justice League it went as expected. The whole thing was just filler for the Death Metal event and had no real impact on the story. Him giving commands was nice as that was as competent as he has looked probably since the New 52 started, but it was the typical "the actual JL are gone so Dick steps in to act as a substitute" story that we've seen many times before. My big issue with it is I disliked how it made Dick seem like such a child looking up to the JL like they are adults and he is still some kid. I hate that dynamic. I want Dick to look at the JL characters and think of them as equals. That he is confident in himself and believes he is just as good as they are. It is why I want Dick to be a full JL member and have a seat at the table because he deserves it instead of only being at the table when they are gone. Hell, I'd love for him to demand a position instead of being handed it even, but it doesn't really matter as Dick will never be a full JL member. So it is a bit meaningless for me to harp on it.

----------


## Aahz

> My morbid curiosity always getting the better of me because I'm a NIGHTWING fan, I did check out this KGBeast issue. And while it hit all the most dumb predictable beats, giving a full circle "unrevegengeance" moment where Nightwing beats up the Beast and cracks a joke, breaking the tension ...


I'm wondering if the writer even researched KGBeast, compared to "Ten Nights of the Beast" he was a total Joke in this issue.

----------


## Blue22

Not just this issue. KGBeast is pretty much the Batfamily's new punching bag now. First Bruce had a whack at him. Then Damian. Then Dick. Who's next? Jason? Tim? Batcow?

----------


## Blue22

> that whole mess with Alfred was just bizarre. So the only thing Dick learned from this whole disaster is that he can't be happy and have normal relationships just like Batman? That should put the nail in the coffin for those who think Jurgens understands Dick's character at all.



Nail RIGHT on the head.

----------


## WonderNight

So let me get this right. Dick broke up with bea because he realized that relationships with civilians don't work for him. Is that right?

----------


## Blue22

> So let me get this right. Dick broke up with bea because he realized that relationships with civilians don't work for him. Is that right?


That, along with some BS about how he's just like Bruce and that means he "can't be happy". The same nonsensical reason Selina left Bruce at the altar.

----------


## Aahz

> Not just this issue. KGBeast is pretty much the Batfamily's new punching bag now. First Bruce had a whack at him. Then Damian. Then Dick.


That's of course true.

But when it comes to Dick, I think has been for a few years trend to have him overcome even pretty powerfull opponents way to easy, and that takes imo away a lot of tension from his stories.

----------


## Journey

In Jurgens defense if I spent such and such a lot of time putting my time and effort writing a story, ain't no way I'm gonna shit on it in the final chapters Ric was his baby of course he want's this time to mean something, it doesn't but I understand that he wants it too Lol.

----------


## Claude

> In Jurgens defense if I spent such and such a lot of time putting my time and effort writing a story, ain't no way I'm gonna shit on it in the final chapters Ric was his baby of course he want's this time to mean something, it doesn't but I understand that he wants it too Lol.


Yeah, I'm torn - on the one hand, it seems to be objectively a good thing to close out the arc properly after two years - take the time to tie everything off, just as a general principle. On the other hand, this run isn't worth the paper my digital copies are printed on - and it *still* sticks in my craw that "Grayson" didn't get the same courtesy!

Hopefully, *hopefully*, we'll get some exciting news in next month's remittances. The Justice League arc ended up a bit nothingy, but I'd still be on board for Williamson building something up - and maybe we're now reaching the point where Snyder's "Nightwing: Parabola" could plausibly start turning up?

----------


## Badou

> That's of course true.
> 
> But when it comes to Dick, I think has been for a few years trend to have him overcome even pretty powerfull opponents way to easy, and that takes imo away a lot of tension from his stories.


It's like that with all the Batman family pretty much. With Bruce there are way too many to count, and Jason in his book has crazy feats as well. He's been running around with an Amazon and Bizarro so he's written in a way to be looked at as their "equal". Even in that Leviathan series by Bendis he had Jason take on Batman, Green Arrow, Damian, Plastic Man, and Manhunter all at the same time and beat them. Then of course there is Tim who is written as being smarter than everyone constantly. It isn't really a new thing. I mean Bruce, Babs, and Damain all beat up KGBeast before Dick did here, lol. It does suck that all the tension is gone from these fights though most of the time because no outcome is that surprising anymore.

I'd argue that Dick gets beaten up and embarrassed more than most from the group. The Grayson series was probably the run that gave Dick the most "feats" since the New 52, but Higgins run to start the New 52 was just Dick getting beaten up all the time and struggling to get by, then Dick got beaten up in Forever Evil by the Crime Syndicate, Grayson bumped up his abilities again where he fought some strong guys, but then Seeley's Nightwing run was a mixed bag. Nothing major there. Then of course there was Abnett's Titans run where Dick was beaten up there and made to look incompetent. Remember in Titans Hunt where Abnett had Dick run away from Donna and Garth in complete terror because they were super powered? Haha, it was bad. Then of course the Ric arc where Dick was manipulated and used by the Scarecrow, Talon and the Owls, and then the Joker. He's had a really rough go of it since Flashpoint. 




> In Jurgens defense if I spent such and such a lot of time putting my time and effort writing a story, ain't no way I'm gonna shit on it in the final chapters Ric was his baby of course he want's this time to mean something, it doesn't but I understand that he wants it too Lol.


I mean Percy wrote the story first for an issue, and then Lobdell wrote it after him after campaigning for the Ric story to last longer behind the scenes and then left after an arc. Then Jurgens started on the Ric stuff. If anything Jurgens should have done the opposite of them, but he just leaned into their mess more and more over his run.

----------


## Restingvoice

"I had only been Robin for a year when I snuck into the Justice League meeting"

Oh. *** you. You're messing with my timeline again. Though only one year makes sense. Okay. Here goes. 
Batman Year One - 25-year-old Batman
Batman Year Two - Daughter of The Demon and Son of The Demon - Damian is conceived and born as soon as possible
Batman Year ??? - Death of The Flying Graysons - Dick was adopted as a child - by the art approximately age 10-13
Robin Training - Dick age 13-14
Robin Year One - Dick wears his first costume - the updated classic with pants - by the art approximate age is 14-15 - First encounter with Catwoman at the boat 
Robin Year Two - Dick wears his New 52 costume - age approximately 15-16 - seeing The League
Teen Titans Year One - Dick age 16-17 - Very possibly he immediately formed Teen Titans after that
Nightwing Year One - Robin II Year One - No reference - Dick is at least 18 - Jason is 15-16
Robin III Year One - Death in The Family - A Lonely Place of Dying - Tim is 12 - Jason died at 16-17 - Immediately resurrected
Batman Year 11 At Minimum - Talia introduced Damian to Batman - Damian is 10 years old - Tim 13 - Batman Robin Reborn - Under The Red Hood
Batman Year 12 At Minimum - New 52 Year One - The Court of Owls - Damian 11 Tim 14
Batman Year 13 At Minimum - New 52 Year Two - Endgame - Damian 12 Tim 15
Batman Year 14 At Minimum - Rebirth Begins - Dark Knights Metal - Damian is 13 years old - Tim is 16 - Bruce is 39
Batman Year 15 at a minimum - Rebirth Year Two - Death Metal - Bruce is 40 - Damian 14 Tim 17 Jason 22?

----------


## SanityOrMadness

Don't bother trying to figure it out. Death Metal is apparently going to break any hope of a chronology that fits (the characters are going to remember their entire publication history. Even stuff like the post-Crisis stories written to overwrite stuff from pre-Crisis).

----------


## dropkickjake

Holding the timeline loosely and thinking about this as mythology more than a tight history will also probably save more than a few grey or lost hairs.

----------


## Restingvoice

Shut up and let me have my fun

----------


## Digifiend

> What appears to be next is Professor Grayson at Titans Academy....or whatever they will end up calling it. And if you think that is just a reference to Future State then go look up the ending to today's issue of Teen Titans.


That issue doesn't refer to an academy. Only the New Teen Titans welcoming the current team to Titans Tower. Which sounds more like the 2003 set-up where the rookies (the Young Justice team) were mentored by the veterans (Cyborg, Beast Boy).

----------


## Avi

> That issue doesn't refer to an academy. Only the New Teen Titans welcoming the current team to Titans Tower. Which sounds more like the 2003 set-up where the rookies (the Young Justice team) were mentored by the veterans (Cyborg, Beast Boy).


Yeah. Now that I have read the Issue I feel as if this isn't something entirely new and the next two Titans-related stories won't be as X-Men-y as FS will be. Tying the Titans together might actually turn into a good thing. No least for Dick. Though it still felt out of character to see Dick present Damian like that. I can see him saying he isn't like Damian as a way to manipulate the Titans, but that's A) not what his goal should be and B) the older Titans lose their chance to be better than the League. Overall it seems like a push for independence that is being very strangely and illogically archived.

----------


## Claude

> Yeah. Now that I have read the Issue I feel as if this isn't something entirely new and the next two Titans-related stories won't be as X-Men-y as FS will be. Tying the Titans together might actually turn into a good thing. No least for Dick. Though it still felt out of character to see Dick present Damian like that. I can see him saying he isn't like Damian as a way to manipulate the Titans, but that's A) not what his goal should be and B) the older Titans lose their chance to be better than the League. Overall it seems like a push for independence that is being very strangely and illogically archived.



Yeah, if it's less a big mass of All Titans Ever, and instead an eight-person team of Dick, Donna, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Roundhouse, Crush, Red Arrow and Kid Flash that seems a very different thing. Team still a bit large for my taste, but it's a quite good mix of powers and personality types - as well as of "classic" and "new" characters.

Question would be whether "what happens next with Damian" is a Titans story or a Batman story.

----------


## SanityOrMadness

> Yeah, if it's less a big mass of All Titans Ever, and instead an eight-person team of Dick, Donna, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Roundhouse, Crush, Red Arrow and Kid Flash that seems a very different thing. Team still a bit large for my taste, but it's a quite good mix of powers and personality types - as well as of "classic" and "new" characters.


Ten. You missed Raven & Starfire. (Although the solicit suggests only Donna & Gar from the NTT will actually be in TT:EW)




> Question would be whether "what happens next with Damian" is a Titans story or a Batman story.


Detective Comics.

----------


## K. Jones

> Not just this issue. KGBeast is pretty much the Batfamily's new punching bag now. First Bruce had a whack at him. Then Damian. Then Dick. Who's next? Jason? Tim? Batcow?


I mean even just prior to the current events ... Scott Snyder kind of made him terrifying in that All-Star Batman "basically just a mini-series lead-up to Metal" story, but like two months later to that in a Lobdell RHATO comic Jason and Dick teamed up and kicked the crap out of him. And who can forget a few years ago when Ugly Mannheim killed him for no reason but then there was just another KGBeast running around in-continuity that was probably a new guy ... prior to flashpointing that bit out of existence. No consistency for the guy. More like TEN WRITERS TAKES OF THE BEAST.

----------


## Aahz

> I mean even just prior to the current events ... Scott Snyder kind of made him terrifying in that All-Star Batman "basically just a mini-series lead-up to Metal" story, but like two months later to that in a Lobdell RHATO comic Jason and Dick teamed up and kicked the crap out of him.


No it were Artemis and Bizarro who kicked his ass in RHATO.

----------


## Claude

> Ten. You missed Raven & Starfire.


I did indeed! Lockdown has clearly affected my basic numeracy....

Ten *does* feel too many to me, but we'll see how it turns out!




> (Although the solicit suggests only Donna & Gar from the NTT will actually be in TT:EW)


Yes, that's a bit odd - although, despite myself, I'm quite looking forward to EW. 




> Detective Comics.


Oh, really? I've not been reading - Tomasi will probably want to use Dick for that, then, anyway. 

(I'm not a big Tomasi guy, but I'd be happy with that - his Secret Origins prelude to the story where Damian comes back from the dead was probably one of the best non-Morrison interactions Dick and Damian have had.)

----------


## CTTT

So, has Dick gotten his memory back yet or is he still Ric?

----------


## KrustyKid

> So, has Dick gotten his memory back yet or is he still Ric?


He finally got his memories back

----------


## CTTT

> He finally got his memories back


That's fantastic and this long two year Dan Didio nightmare is over.  I read that Tom King didn't even want to have Dick lose his memory, just have him in the hospital trying to get his motor skills back.  That sounds better than Ric Grayson.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I want Dc to keep Dick single for a while l. I’m want him to get grounded and plus I’m tired of Dc still putting down Starfire to make Babs look better. I just want Dick in a stable relationship. Dc should add a third option if Bruce can have one why not our boy. The question is who in the Dc line works.

----------


## CPSparkles

> That's fantastic and this long two year Dan Didio nightmare is over.  I read that Tom King didn't even want to have Dick lose his memory, just have him in the hospital trying to get his motor skills back.  That sounds better than Ric Grayson.


I read many things about Tom King mostly I keep coming across articles and interviews blaming every single bad decision or decisions from his run that were met by fan back lash on editorial. Every single one.

Curious. I recall Dan coming and saying on 2 seperate occasions that married batman is for elseworlds and that it was never going to happen while Tom King kept stringing fans along in interviews and on his social media. Telling them to keep buying since his run wasn't over. That just because their wasn't a wedding in #50 doesn't mean there wasn't going to be one.

Tom kept reminding us that he had a 100 issue run so that we are still 50 more issues to go where there was more to come from batcat. 

They didn't get married of course and it was all a big old carrot at the end of a stick for shippers. 

Point is I don't believe Tom king when he says he had a plan for Dick after the shooting.

i don't think he even considered what impact that would have on Dick's title. his thought process just stopped at what if we get a baddie to shoot Dick Grayson! Bruce's most treasured ally shot in the head! and it stopped there.


At least Didio is gone so we can't blame it all on him from now onwards.

----------


## WonderNight

> I want Dc to keep Dick single for a while l. Im want him to get grounded and plus Im tired of Dc still putting down Starfire to make Babs look better. I just want Dick in a stable relationship. Dc should add a third option if Bruce can have one why not our boy. The question is who in the Dc line works.


 Honestly what do you even do with nightwing at this point? Maybe a back to basics, but nightwing needs a serious reset not just the book but the character also. I fear come March thing are just going to be more the same as we have now. But I don't want to be a downer so all I'll say is I hope we nightwing fans have some interesting good story's post future state.

But I also hope dc give dick a basic fondation to start from.

1. Bludhaven is an Vegas/ Atlantic city themed city. The city should be one giant Halys circus and a inverted Gotham.

2. Dick is the owner of Halys circus in the Vegas Bludhaven. Dick  starts up the circus as a way to help the people of Bludhaven by way of jobs and entertainment, also to blend in with the rest of Bludhaven.

Bludhaven and Halys circus are the only things of dick's that's his that DC let's dick keep in his own mythos, so why not have them work together as a fondation and theme for nightwing. What do you guys think.

----------


## WonderNight

Part 2

3. Amy Rohrbach, Instead of dick becoming a cop (9 to 5 doesn't work for nightwing) have Amy be nightwing's connect with the Bludhaven police department. Like a young batman with a young detective Gordon. One working inside the force Amy and Nightwing working outside.

4. The runoffs could return as employees at Halys circus as dick's supporting cast.

Just going back throughout Nightwing's solo history and take the things that has potential (and dc would allow because they already did) and being them together as a solid fondation for Nightwing.

----------


## Avi

I like those ideas. 

I wish the other writers would have built up on Seeley's and Humphries' feel of Vegas Blüdhaven. It's definitely not too late to do that. 

I'd argue DC only keeps the Circus in his mythos to kill them off but a new direction could revitalize them and give Dick a good supporting cast. There are already some archetypes and I wouldn't mind if they brought Clayton Williams (the strongman from the Titans series) into the comics. Dick and he worked well together. I can't really see the run-offs as part of Dick's circus, maybe some of them but not all of them. Another character for the circus would be Guppy imo.

When it was first announced that Dick would go back to Blüdhaven, I hoped to see characters like Amy, Nancy, and even Amygdala again. Integrating old characters would be neat. I wouldn't mind seeing Jenny and Marionette from Higgins run again. These two stood out to me the most back then. I wouldn't want Amy to just exchange Elise Svoboda though. They should be able to co-exist like Gordon and Bullock.

Speaking about potential: Raptor, The Judge, and Blockbuster should be reoccurring villains. A death cop out with Raptor isn't far fetched, and Blockbuster should go back to his changed origin that Seeley introduced. The old Blockbuster's storyline finished with Devin Grayson, so I enjoyed the new take, but Jurgens seems to have retconned that in the Annual this summer.

If DC could remember that Spyral exists that would be neat too.

----------


## Godlike13

I’d give Dick as a solo a break. Not that I think Titans is in any better shape, or even big on this Titans Academy idea, but kill his current series and let some of the stink wear off for a couple months. This way no one can pull the he has a solo bull with Titans. And then they have to actually use him how Titans need to use him, as the face of that franchise, and then spin off a Nightwing solo from there. We know what a Nightwing the Bat character solo looks like, but what does a Nightwing the Titans solo look like. Of course this is also dependent on DC wanting to get more serious about the Titans and improving how they present them.

----------


## Coco Loco

> Bea was garbage. A complete nothing character that offered nothing to the story. I'll never understand why people defend her. She had no character beyond being "nice" and Dick magically fell deeply in love with her to the point where she was somehow the most important person to him in his life. It was completely unbelievable. Nothing was built up with their relationship and she has about as much depth as a spoon. At least with a Shawn she had some layers to her where she felt like an actual character but Bea had nothing. She is a textbook example of how not to create a love interest, imo.


Yea she and the replacement Nightwings are more or less the same thing - generic good people who have no depth beyond that.  We know that RDick was in love with her because he said so, not because of anything he actually did.  And then he broke up with her for the hackneyed old her own safety reason - even though that doesnt make her any safer.  And then he lied to her about the reason because I guess they wanted to give him an excuse to cry.  Its oh-so-predictable and oh-so-shallow.

What a mess of a storyline.  TBI becomes amnesia which then eventually becomes mind control.  He gives up the Nightwing ID so that he can... more or less do exactly the same thing in a different (and dumber) outfit.  He starts a new life as Ric which consists of him meeting exactly one person.  And then everything resolves in the most cliche way imaginable.

----------


## agentofthebat

I'm soooo glad Nightwing is Nightwing again

----------


## Godlike13

Ric himself was just a generic good person with no depth beyond that he was Dick. In fact literally everything was generic and without depth. Every villain turned into a mustache twirler, even Bludhaven was stripped of all the color and Vegas like characteristics. But of course. Cause that’s what’s going to happen when they go to uninvested generic creators to construct this storyline. You get generic everything with little actual care or thought put in. All the old formulas get abused as they are so conditioned to do at this point. The purpose becomes just to get something to print, and not to actually produce something genuinely interesting or of quality. 

And even with Dick back it’s all still the same. Going through the motions with generic, quick to produce, crap. Oh, how sad. The poor tortured superhero can’t have a lover cause it’s dangerous to be around him. What a new and fresh idea that we can sympathize with. Totally not just a well dated industry trope being cut and pasted.

----------


## Celgress

> I'm soooo glad Nightwing is Nightwing again


As am I, what a relief. *whew*  :Cool:

----------


## Drako

Future State Teen Titans takes place after Future State Nightwing. I was expecting the other way around.

----------


## Avi

Hmm, maybe it's Damian after all? Or we get another Dick Grayson was cloned plot (though I don't believe that)?

----------


## Restingvoice

Dark Detective is separated by a year? Then the prisoner can be Bruce

----------


## Frontier

> Future State Teen Titans takes place after Future State Nightwing. I was expecting the other way around.


I guess that explains the different costumes.

----------


## Badou

I still think the Nightwing story sounds awful. He's whole character is going to be used to show how great the new Batman is. I really hope none of this effects his post Future State status, and I'll never understand how anyone okay'd that awful "tacticool" costume. You really would hope for better with Nicola Scott. Oh well.




> Id give Dick as a solo a break. Not that I think Titans is in any better shape, or even big on this Titans Academy idea, but kill his current series and let some of the stink wear off for a couple months. This way no one can pull the he has a solo bull with Titans. And then they have to actually use him how Titans need to use him, as the face of that franchise, and then spin off a Nightwing solo from there. We know what a Nightwing the Bat character solo looks like, but what does a Nightwing the Titans solo look like. Of course this is also dependent on DC wanting to get more serious about the Titans and improving how they present them.


I honestly think this is the worst thing that you could do with him. In the current market where DC is cutting books and downsizing the last thing you want is to cut the exposure of a character. That is putting the character on a path to irrelevancy as there is no guarantee that his solo book will ever return, especially when you have competing characters like Jason gaining more exposure and traction. Just look at what has happened to Tim when he was moved over to just the Titans and lost his solo, or even what happened to Damian in the current Teen Titans run. It's been a disaster for them. The Titans have proven time and time again they are not some saving grace for these older Titans characters or Batman characters. Plus you still have the JL looming over the Titans just like with Batman looming over Nightwing. So that feels like a wash.

Years before Dick even became a solo character the Titans weren't doing anything great with him. It has been decades since there was a good Dick Titans story, and the whole X-Men/Academy set up isn't going to help his character. Since in that situation Dick becomes the teacher or authority figure that the younger Titans will challenge and he'll likely get thrown under the bus for them. That is just how these things go. Since all the agency is going to be on the younger Titans. Plus in the Titans Dick gets all his personality stripped from him. He always defaults to the boring leader trope while the other characters are the ones that get to be more fun and entertaining. We've seen that enough to know it will happen again. 

His solo book has MANY problems, but at least it can occasionally produce good stories for him while the Titans have done nothing in that same span. So I'm just not willing to give it up for the Titans. The only way I'd be interested in him going back to the Titans if he was deaged and became Robin again and it focuses on their early adventures when he formed the team. Since he gains back his iconic Robin identity and the Titans can operate on their own instead of some academy setting that no longer makes it the Titans.

----------


## Godlike13

That’s not really the point. The Titans book doesn’t necessarily have to do anything great with him, its just has to do enough to re-establish him as something other then just a Bat spinoff. It’s about re-expanding the Nightwing brand and trying capitalize on where Dick’s exposure is coming from right now. Dick’s current solo is a lost cause. Its not going to protect him, but prove him superfluous. It’s numbers are too far in the gutter, and its quality too consistently poor and objectionable to its own audience. It needs to end and change needs to be clear and decisive if they retry it. Otherwise the next series is just going to be ordered from where this series ends. Using Titans to launchpad his next solo series would signify that. What’s going to protect Dick is what they do with him outside of comics. And right now his opportunities outside of comics are coming from being a Titan. 

This isn’t like with Tim. With Tim DC was at odds with itself. Trying to push Tim as the face of the Titans in comics, while elsewhere no one had any interest in Tim in that position or in any position really. The idea here would be to try and leverage Dick’s position as the face of the Titans to rebrand his solo as something other then just another fledgling Bat spinoff. Because right now that isn’t working, and out of comics he has more going on as a Titan then as a Bat character. To the the point that even other Bat character are being hitched the the Titans wagon to try and gain exposer and traction. 

What’s more, in a general sense, its time Titans books stop being as bad is they are. Despite how the comics devision supports it, out of comics it’s still proving to be a viable franchise for DC. And for that reason it’s not going anywhere. So its about time their comics start seeing that and supporting it as such. Titans is bad for a lot same reasons his series is bad. They get what they give.

----------


## Badou

But we have decades of stories to go off of and the Titans rehabilitating a character and then using that to launch a solo book for that character doesn't happen. There is no evidence of it. Their track record is taking a character and running them into the ground further. So for him to give up his solo book for the Titans that have produced zero good stories for him in decades I just don't see the logic in it. 

Then there is an issue with trying to make Dick the face of the Titans. He isn't Robin anymore. You can technically say that Dick is the "face" of the Titans because he founded them, but in reality Robin is. Robin is the iconic leader. It is why they tried to have Tim take over the Titans since they could still market him as Robin, even if he was Red Robin, or why Damian was given his shot at running the Titans because he was Robin. Then in most other media Robin is the leader or focus going off their animated shows or movies. Even in the live action Titans show they made sure to always have a Robin on it. Dick, Jason, and now Tim apparently is going to be on it. So there is a disconnect between the general audience who view Robin as the leader and face of the Titans and then trying to say Dick as Nightwing is the face.

Also Bat characters aren't being hitched to the Titans to help the Bat characters. The Titans are using more and more Batman characters because the Titans are so devoid of ideas that they need the Bat characters to sustain it. So that is why they are moving the Titans to Gotham in the 3rd season, adding Babs, having Scarecrow be the big villain, having Jason become Red Hood, and possibly introducing Tim, but that live action Titans show is terrible and has lead to nothing for Dick's character being looked at any differently. It really should have just been a Nightwing show as it might have had a chance at being good, but now they kind of blew their shot at that.

----------


## Frontier

> I still think the Nightwing story sounds awful. He's whole character is going to be used to show how great the new Batman is. I really hope none of this effects his post Future State status, and I'll never understand how anyone okay'd that awful "tacticool" costume. You really would hope for better with Nicola Scott. Oh well.


The preview in the free DC Nation issue on Future State looked pretty good.

----------


## Badou

> The preview in the free DC Nation issue on Future State looked pretty good.


Was there more than the two pages of him jumping off a building and fighting some robots? It just sucks Scott's art is wasted on something so generic. The awful costume really ruined those pages for me too. The side rib pouches look so ridiculous, haha. Just give him a belt if you want him to hold more things.

----------


## Frontier

> Was there more than the two pages of him jumping off a building and fighting some robots? It just sucks Scott's art is wasted on something so generic. The awful costume really ruined those pages for me too. The side rib pouches look so ridiculous, haha. Just give him a belt if you want him to hold more things.


I thought the art and Dick flowed well in the pages, but I don't hate the costume (even if it's not my favorite).

----------


## Badou

> I thought the art and Dick flowed well in the pages, but I don't hate the costume (even if it's not my favorite).


Scott is a good artist. No matter what she draws it will flow well and look nice. It just sucks the costume is shit. Just imagine if Dick got some new costume that people were actually excited about and how much better those pages would have looked, especially after what he was running around in for 2 years as Ric. Things like Future State should be time to experiment and try more risky things. A chin strap and putting his escrima sticks on his ankles isn't going to excite anyone.

----------


## Frontier

> Scott is a good artist. No matter what she draws it will flow well and look nice. It just sucks the costume is shit. Just imagine if Dick got some new costume that people were actually excited about and how much better those pages would have looked, especially after what he was running around in for 2 years as Ric. Things like Future State should be time to experiment and try more risky things. A chin strap and putting his escrima sticks on his ankles isn't going to excite anyone.


I think the plot kind of defined the costume in this instance...so we get a more busy, militant, version of the Nightwing suit.

----------


## Robanker

> I think the plot kind of defined the costume in this instance...so we get a more busy, militant, version of the Nightwing suit.


I would argue both those things are a bit antithetical to Dick Grayson, but then this is shaping up to be a dark future for Dick. :/

----------


## cc008

> I would argue both those things are a bit antithetical to Dick Grayson, but then this is shaping up to be a dark future for Dick. :/


Since Teen Titans takes place afterwards and he's got different gear there, he seems to only have the militant style gear for a little while. Maybe it just fits the job that needs doing in Arkham at that time.

----------


## Godlike13

> But we have decades of stories to go off of and the Titans rehabilitating a character and then using that to launch a solo book for that character doesn't happen. There is no evidence of it. Their track record is taking a character and running them into the ground further. So for him to give up his solo book for the Titans that have produced zero good stories for him in decades I just don't see the logic in it. 
> 
> Then there is an issue with trying to make Dick the face of the Titans. He isn't Robin anymore. You can technically say that Dick is the "face" of the Titans because he founded them, but in reality Robin is. Robin is the iconic leader. It is why they tried to have Tim take over the Titans since they could still market him as Robin, even if he was Red Robin, or why Damian was given his shot at running the Titans because he was Robin. Then in most other media Robin is the leader or focus going off their animated shows or movies. Even in the live action Titans show they made sure to always have a Robin on it. Dick, Jason, and now Tim apparently is going to be on it. So there is a disconnect between the general audience who view Robin as the leader and face of the Titans and then trying to say Dick as Nightwing is the face.
> 
> Also Bat characters aren't being hitched to the Titans to help the Bat characters. The Titans are using more and more Batman characters because the Titans are so devoid of ideas that they need the Bat characters to sustain it. So that is why they are moving the Titans to Gotham in the 3rd season, adding Babs, having Scarecrow be the big villain, having Jason become Red Hood, and possibly introducing Tim, but that live action Titans show is terrible and has lead to nothing for Dick's character being looked at any differently. It really should have just been a Nightwing show as it might have had a chance at being good, but now they kind of blew their shot at that.


Again, your missing the point. His solo as it is needs to end. Losing it at this point would be a benefit cause it’s just prolonging the inevitable, and digging a hole deeper and deeper. For the character’s and brands protection it needs to end. Continuing to sell the idea of the character as a bottom tier seller, on a book no creator wants to touch, is bad for the brand. But they can’t just relaunch it right after as if the market is stupid and is just going to forget the previous series. They need a stop gap. Titans can act as that stop gap. It doesn’t need to rehabilitate the character, it just needs to create time, space between his last series and the next, and remind general readers the character isn’t just a fledgling Bat spin off. Eventually using it to launch his next solo series to further reinforce that his next series isn’t just going to be the same as his last. Just cause they haven’t done it before doesn’t mean they can’t do it. Titans shouldn’t be as poorly represented and supported in comics as it is.  

Dick is already the face. They know it, the comic side just doesn’t want to embrace it unless they absolutely have to. They try with Tim and it failed, cause readers aren’t as stupid as they think, and then with Damian and that didn’t really turn out much better. Not that it had a chance given the state he inherited it in. Outside of comics they don’t even waste time with fighting it and just further undercuts the comics department. Robin and Nightwing are part of the same mythos at this point. His character arc from Robin to Nightwing represents the Titans. The live action show sees this and has made that character arc pretty much its basis so far. The disconnect seems more within DC then it is with audiences. Robin becomes Nightwing is a simple enough idea that general audiences seem to have no problem accepting. 

Titans is a hungry platform in need of more content. It’s providing exposer opportunities that are not around with Batman right now, while taking advantage of these proven concepts. It’s smart. Not letting them go to waste. The live action Titan show is a huge investment where it matters. It shows where the opportunity is right now for Dick outside of comics. As useless as the comics see it, it’s still a brand DC is wiling to invest millions into to showcase in other media. That it wasn’t just called a Nightwing show is my point. They see bigger opportunities with Titans then they do with just Nightwing. And I don’t see that changing. Rather then resent these opportunities its probably time to start embracing them and trying to use them to Dick’s benefit. So that maybe there will come a point we get the Nightwing tv show or movie.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Since Teen Titans takes place afterwards and he's got different gear there, he seems to only have the militant style gear for a little while. Maybe it just fits the job that needs doing in Arkham at that time.


Why do crush and red arrow look the same if its the future?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why do crush and red arrow look the same if it’s the future?


Coz they're supporting cast and no one care enough XD

----------


## Frontier

I don't see the problem with just ending the solo and relaunching it with a new (better) writer. It's the same deal with Titans at this point.

----------


## Ascended

> Since Teen Titans takes place afterwards and he's got different gear there, he seems to only have the militant style gear for a little while. Maybe it just fits the job that needs doing in Arkham at that time.


That's my takeaway too. Seems to be a "right suit for the right job" situation.

Now, don't get me wrong, the suit *does* look fairly generic in a "paramilitary 90's hero" kind of way and something like Dan Mora's Power Rangers/Gotham update would've been far more welcome (best redesign I've seen for Dick, if only it didn't have the helmet). But I don't find the suit to be *bad* or anything, just a little basic and not really in line with Dick's typical visual MO. 




> I don't see the problem with just ending the solo and relaunching it with a new (better) writer. It's the same deal with Titans at this point.


This. There's no problem with the book that can't be solved with a better writer and better editorial viewpoint. Wanting to get Dick away from Gotham, Bruce, and the Bat editorial office is all well and good and I support that, but the Titans are maybe the only IP that gets abused worse than Dick so it's largely a "six of one, half dozen of the other" situation. In either case, you'd need better talent and editors in charge to get a Dick story worth reading, and between the two I'd rather have the solo.

----------


## Godlike13

They'll use the last series as an order basis unless there is something in-between. They can change the writer and editorial, but they first still have to convince the general audience to give it chance in the first place. To ignore how his book is currently selling and the general perception his current series has created, and brushing it off as oh well a new writer will fix it, is naive to say the least. And just not fair expectations for whomever eventually takes over. The objective with Titans would be to be that in-between, and try to establish a new sales basis between his previous series end and his new series. 

A new writer is not going to be nearly enough anymore to get him out of his sales hole. They need to come up with an actual re marketing campaign. Think like with Batwoman during Rebirth. Now that didn't exactly pay off with her, but thats the idea. They pushed this idea of her as the 3rd pillar of the Bat world, then used 'Tec to launch her next series. Rather than just relaunch it cold. With Nightwing i suggest trying it with Titans instead of something Batman. Cause solo Nightwing has already been so entrenched with Batman, and Titans has more going on with Dick outside of comics. You guys seem to be misconstruing my point is that Titans will creatively save the character. Thats not really the idea here.

----------


## Frontier

> They'll use the last series as an order basis unless there is something in-between. They can change the writer and editorial, but they first still have to convince the general audience to give it chance. To ignore how the book is selling and the genral perception his current series has created, and brush it off as oh well a new writer will fix it, is naive. The objective with Titans would be to be that in-between, and establish a new sales basis between his previous series end and his new series.


Well, a new writer, direction, and jumping on point is about the best one can hope for at this point. 

It's not like the Titans are really in a much better position and that book has to service more than just Dick.

----------


## Lazurus33

nightwing.jpg nightwinga.jpg

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/wher...-future-state/

----------


## Robanker

> I don't see the problem with just ending the solo and relaunching it with a new (better) writer. It's the same deal with Titans at this point.


Pretty sure that's what's in the cards. I think they're just keeping the book going right now because it still generates a profit. No other reason to keep it going during Ric either, frankly. The relaunch is coming. It's a holding pattern right now. 

I don't even want to hold this run against Jurgens. He couldn't make lemonade out of the lemons given but there's a very short list of people who could and I won't begrudge the guy for taking a paycheck. 

Wouldn't mind seeing Zdarsky, Fraction, Russell or Bendis (if he can get those goddamn poop jokes under control) taking a crack at Nightwing. Or some new blood, though right now Dick probably needs star power to help him after a two year slump.

----------


## Shadowcat

It’d be a real coup to get Zdarsky and Molina on this book.

----------


## Digifiend

> Why do crush and red arrow look the same if its the future?


Good question. If it's seven years later they should look visibly older, especially Emiko.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, a new writer, direction, and jumping on point is about the best one can hope for at this point. 
> 
> It's not like the Titans are really in a much better position and that book has to service more than just Dick.


I know this sounds crazy but maybe just maybe dc can do something new with nightwing? Maybe a new teambook with a new roster? Or maybe instead of a solo book we get a mimi series as setup for a new direction? Just a thought.

Speaking of solo's, with Jason's new status quo red hood will now be in Gotham, red hood in Gotham and nightwing in bludhaven is very redundant. They're almost the as book at that point and DC is cutting books I don't see both being around at the same time with the same status quo.

----------


## Frontier

> I know this sounds crazy but maybe just maybe dc can do something new with nightwing? Maybe a new teambook with a new roster? Or maybe instead of a solo book we get a mimi series as setup for a new direction? Just a thought.
> 
> Speaking of solo's, with Jason's new status quo red hood will now be in Gotham, red hood in Gotham and nightwing in bludhaven is very redundant. They're almost the as book at that point and DC is cutting books I don't see both being around at the same time with the same status quo.


Well, Dick and Jason are different characters who do different stuff though...

----------


## Avi

If there won't be at least a new writer in March (if there even is an on-going), it's over. A renumbering would be better, but it doesn't look as if that'll happen. I can see the Titans kicking things off for Nightwing if DC starts new titles in different months as they did during Rebirth, but, just like others, I don't see Titans as a title that will set the foundation for on-goings. It should, but it doesn't.

Speaking about cities, I wouldn't mind seeing Dick operate out of New York again, especially if DC wants him closer to the Titans. Even if Vegas-like Blüdhaven is still the better choice if Dick has to be tied to a city.

Did Higgins ever say why he chose Chicago in his run?

----------


## Ascended

> They'll use the last series as an order basis unless there is something in-between. They can change the writer and editorial, but they first still have to convince the general audience to give it chance in the first place.


You'd have a valid argument if the Titans were in a better position. They're not. The book doesn't tend to sell better than Nightwing and is far, far less consistent in its sales numbers. All the things you'd have to do to repair Dick's solo sales and reputation, you'd have to do to repair the Titans' sales and reputation. And with the Titans you don't have the benefit of that high sales floor that has kept Nightwing alive through the Ric era, nor do you have the opportunity to build a strong foundation for the character as a solo IP. I'm down with DC actually giving a damn about the Titans and trying to make them sell properly again but as far as Dick goes, there's no benefit to putting him there at the expense of his solo.

At this point DC has done so much damage to both brands there *is* no quick, easy fix. They've spent years putting in halfassed effort (when they're not sacrificing both brands to the larger franchises of the Bat and JLA) and that has trained readers who aren't already die-hard fans to largely ignore those books, regardless of what the books are actually doing. A quality creator and new editor isn't the solution, it's merely the first step along the path; true salvation for these brands will require long-term effort, investment, and consistently strong creators.

----------


## WonderNight

> Well, Dick and Jason are different characters who do different stuff though...


 but that's not how DC looks at books. What DC will is that one book is about a former robin 20s street vigilante in an urban gritty city and the other is a former Robin 20s street vigilante in urban gritty city. 

Dick and Jason personality being different doesn't matter. Dick and Bruce, dick and tim personality are different, didn't stop DC form see nightwing as redundant with batman and Robin and wanting to kill him off. 

DC looks at role and niches not personalities. Higgins is from Chicago.

----------


## Godlike13

> You'd have a valid argument if the Titans were in a better position. They're not. The book doesn't tend to sell better than Nightwing and is far, far less consistent in its sales numbers. All the things you'd have to do to repair Dick's solo sales and reputation, you'd have to do to repair the Titans' sales and reputation. And with the Titans you don't have the benefit of that high sales floor that has kept Nightwing alive through the Ric era, nor do you have the opportunity to build a strong foundation for the character as a solo IP. I'm down with DC actually giving a damn about the Titans and trying to make them sell properly again but as far as Dick goes, there's no benefit to putting him there at the expense of his solo.
> 
> At this point DC has done so much damage to both brands there *is* no quick, easy fix. They've spent years putting in halfassed effort (when they're not sacrificing both brands to the larger franchises of the Bat and JLA) and that has trained readers who aren't already die-hard fans to largely ignore those books, regardless of what the books are actually doing. A quality creator and new editor isn't the solution, it's merely the first step along the path; true salvation for these brands will require long-term effort, investment, and consistently strong creators.


Titans has time between series, and stuff happening outside of comics. 6-12 issues of a new Titans series would still be a better sales basis then current Nightwing. Apathy and creator favoritism is what kept Nightwing alive through Ric. It’s sales floor is now trash. Unless he’s sucking on Batman’s tit we are talking sub 15k now, well out of the top 100. 
Titans has time away, and allows for the opportunity to rest and then introduce a different foundation for the character as a solo IP. The point is they can’t just slap on a new creator and think that is going do anything at this point. They need to remarket with Nightwing now. So maybe try re marketing with the Titans then simply just relaunching and naively thinking that’s all that’s required. 




> Did Higgins ever say why he chose Chicago in his run?


He’s from Chicago.

----------


## Arsenal

> I know this sounds crazy but maybe just maybe dc can do something new with nightwing? Maybe a new teambook with a new roster? Or maybe instead of a solo book we get a mimi series as setup for a new direction? Just a thought.
> 
> Speaking of solo's, with Jason's new status quo red hood will now be in Gotham, red hood in Gotham and nightwing in bludhaven is very redundant. They're almost the as book at that point and DC is cutting books I don't see both being around at the same time with the same status quo.


Its to early to say if Jasons back in Gotham full time or not. The current story is just a 2 issue filler just to get it to December.

----------


## Frontier

> Titans has time between series, and stuff happening outside of comics. 6-12 issues of a new Titans series would still be a better sales basis then current Nightwing. Apathy and creator favoritism is what kept Nightwing alive through Ric. It’s sales floor is now trash. Unless he’s sucking on Batman’s tit we are talking sub 15k now, well out of the top 100. 
> Titans has time away, and allows for the opportunity to rest and then introduce a different foundation for the character as a solo IP. The point is they can’t just slap on a new creator and think that is going do anything at this point. They need to remarket with Nightwing now. So maybe try re marketing with the Titans then simply just relaunching and naively thinking that’s all that’s required.


I guess it's been about a year since Abnett's Titans ended? It doesn't feel that long ago. I think a relaunch doing well would be heavily reliant on the creative team and roster and whether we get a Teen Titans team alongside them. 

Although I don't see a Titans writer looking at the title as a Dick Grayson vehicle.

----------


## Digifiend

Frankly, Titans shouldn't rely on Dick. That's what derailed the last series when he was forced out due to Ric.



> Higgins is from Chicago.


I wonder if he knows Ironheart and Champions writer Eve Ewing then? She's also from Chicago.

----------


## Godlike13

> Frankly, Titans shouldn't rely on Dick. That's what derailed the last series when he was forced out due to Ric.


LoL, ya. That was that series problem. Thats series didn't do shit with Dick. Except feed him to the other and sell him as Batman's bitch. He was just there legitimize it. The problem the last series demonstrated was how the Titans literally needs Dick to survive, yet at the same time refuses to actually do anything with him or protect his character. That series undermined itself.

----------


## Ascended

> Titans has time between series, and stuff happening outside of comics.


And despite those things, the Titans still can't maintain publishing or steady sales, and at its best barely manages to equal typical Nightwing numbers. 

Titans is *not* the franchise to send Dick to for rehabilitation. I get where you're coming from but the Titans is not the solution. It's just about the only book you could send Dick to where things would likely get worse for him instead of better. And how many times have we said "well the Titans have had a break and they've got the cartoon, and it's time to try again and it'll definitely be better this time!" only to find out that no, it's not better, and we watch the title die within 24 issues?




> ItÂs sales floor is now trash. Unless heÂs sucking on BatmanÂs tit we are talking sub 15k now, well out of the top 100.


And it took two years of intentional sabotage to get sales down that low. The fact that sales held as strongly as they did through the course of Ric shows how popular Dick is and how loyal his fans are. Seriously, for the first year or so Ric sales were barely below average, and I don't think many books could have pulled that off in the face of such low quality. Meanwhile, the Titans can't make a book last more than a couple years even when DC *isn't* trying to screw them over. 




> Titans has time away, and allows for the opportunity to rest and then introduce a different foundation for the character as a solo IP. The point is they canÂt just slap on a new creator and think that is going do anything at this point. They need to remarket with Nightwing now.


I agree, they need to remarket the character. But not with the Titans. I mean, what is the message there? "Hey, we screwed this beloved character over for two years and treated him like he was still a sidekick. So we're gonna fix things by taking away his solo and putting him in a book none of you have cared about for thirty years so we can repeat a status quo the character outgrew decades ago!" If the goal is to move Nightwing forward and rebuild from the damage of Ric, then going backwards to the Titans is not the answer. 

The character *does* need a remarket, he *does* need to get away from Batman and Gotham. Putting him back in the Titans is not the way to tell people that it's a brand new day for Nightwing and the sins of the past won't be repeated. Sending him to the Titans will only tell fans that DC has learned nothing. Dick has had halfassed effort, at best, since the New52 began almost ten years ago. The Titans? They've sucked for *thirty* and require a hell of a lot more work and effort and investment to get their feet under them again.

----------


## Godlike13

> And despite those things, the Titans still can't maintain publishing or steady sales, and at its best barely manages to equal typical Nightwing numbers. 
> 
> Titans is *not* the franchise to send Dick to for rehabilitation. I get where you're coming from but the Titans is not the solution. It's just about the only book you could send Dick to where things would likely get worse for him instead of better. And how many times have we said "well the Titans have had a break and they've got the cartoon, and it's time to try again and it'll definitely be better this time!" only to find out that no, it's not better, and we watch the title die within 24 issues?
> 
> And it took two years of intentional sabotage to get sales down that low. The fact that sales held as strongly as they did through the course of Ric shows how popular Dick is and how loyal his fans are. Seriously, for the first year or so Ric sales were barely below average, and I don't think many books could have pulled that off in the face of such low quality. Meanwhile, the Titans can't make a book last more than a couple years even when DC *isn't* trying to screw them over. 
> 
> I agree, they need to remarket the character. But not with the Titans. I mean, what is the message there? "Hey, we screwed this beloved character over for two years and treated him like he was still a sidekick. So we're gonna fix things by taking away his solo and putting him in a book none of you have cared about for thirty years so we can repeat a status quo the character outgrew decades ago!" If the goal is to move Nightwing forward and rebuild from the damage of Ric, then going backwards to the Titans is not the answer. 
> 
> The character *does* need a remarket, he *does* need to get away from Batman and Gotham. Putting him back in the Titans is not the way to tell people that it's a brand new day for Nightwing and the sins of the past won't be repeated. Sending him to the Titans will only tell fans that DC has learned nothing. Dick has had halfassed effort, at best, since the New52 began almost ten years ago. The Titans? They've sucked for *thirty* and require a hell of a lot more work and effort and investment to get their feet under them again.


- Sales is not why Titans isn't regularly published, and Nightwing has now fallen well below where Titans numbers where when it was cancelled. Again, the point is not to rehabilitate the character but to give the bottom out solo series a break. As long as it can make it 6 issues above 25k, create time for the palate to be cleansed, and convince shops to use it as an order basis instead of his previous bottomed out series. It will have done its job.  

- Point is that they are now down that low. Regardless of how that got there, thats Nightwing's current reality. While Titans have been away long enough to start fresh. As bad as Rebirth Titans turned out creatively, it still debuted pretty strong. 

- They are already marketing the character with the Titans everywhere but in the comics, so the the message would be a unified message of how they are already selling the character. At this point they need to reestablish a base. Lets be clear here. Its not audiences that have rejected the Titans, but people within DC that have something against them. A short break with the Titans to regroup, is not something general audiences are going to freak out over or rebel against.

----------


## Frontier

> - Sales is not why Titans isn't regularly published, and Nightwing has now fallen well below where Titans numbers where when it was cancelled. Again, the point is not to rehabilitate the character but to give the bottom out solo series a break. As long as it can make it 6 issues above 25k, create time for the palate to be cleansed, and convince shops to use it as an order basis instead of his previous bottomed out series. It will have done its job.


_Nightwing_ has also ran longer than that Titans book did by this point.

But all this hinges on DC getting its head together when it comes to the Titans and using Dick well, which is why I would love to see but hasn't quite had the best track record in the past few years.  



> - Point is that they are now down that low. Regardless of how that got there, thats Nightwing's current reality. While Titans have been away long enough to start fresh. As bad as Rebirth Titans turned out creatively, it still debuted pretty strong.


Have they had a long enough break now, though? 



> - They are already marketing the character with the Titans everywhere but in the comics, so the the message would be a unified message of how they are already selling the character. At this point they need to reestablish a base. Lets be clear here. Its not audiences that have rejected the Titans, but people within DC that have something against them. A short break with the Titans to regroup, is not something general audiences are going to freak out over or rebel against.


I feel like they can do a two-fold rebuilding of the character both within the Titans and as an independent, solo, hero. I feel like that would be more effective than just sticking him in the Titans.

----------


## Drako

According to Comichron, Nightwing is doing just fine. He still is selling more than most DC comics out there.

----------


## Godlike13

Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.

----------


## Konja7

> According to Comichron, Nightwing is doing just fine. He still is selling more than most DC comics out there.


This is only because Nightwing was part of Joker War event (that was a pretty profitable event). 

Nightwing doesn't usually sell so good.

----------


## Drako

> Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.


Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.

But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.




> This is only because Nightwing was part of Joker War event (that was a pretty profitable event). 
> 
> Nightwing doesn't usually sell so good.


Before Ric Grayson he sold around 25k to 30k regularly.

Edit:

I'm actually interested in seeing the numbers of issue 76, too bad it takes a lot of time for them to release this numbers.

----------


## AmiMizuno

He was selling better before Ric. Which means he would have been better off without it. Nicola Scott shared this 

13E190D3-FDB9-44D7-AE64-9CB359950C04.jpg

Honestly with future state being 2 months all of this could be forgotten. This is a shorten version of 5G anyway. So at this point they are probably seeing what will happen

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.
> 
> But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.


Two books that also aren’t selling well. Teen Titans even being canceled. There being other books not selling well doesn’t mean Nightwing is doing fine. They are chopping books selling similarly, and would have probably chopped Nightwing too already if it wasn’t for them wanting Jurgens to have the work.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Two books that also aren’t selling well. Teen Titans even being canceled. There being other books not selling well doesn’t mean Nightwing is doing fine. They are chopping books selling similarly, and would have probably chopped Nightwing too already if it wasn’t for them wanting Jurgens to have the work.


I mean the fact he was selling well before the Ric arc happened. Doesn’t that mean his numbers most likely will go back up? His numbers went low because of Ric not because of Nightwing wasn’t popular had the beginning was great. Yea Titans got cancelled. What would save the comic from being cancelled? They probably will be doing a new series

----------


## Rac7d*

> Before Bat event inflation, he was at 18k. Just above Beyond. He's not doing fine. He's now completely reliant on Batman to stay above water.


Well over the last two years a lot of us dropped the book, it gonna take time for it to recover

----------


## Drako

Nightwing will be in Batman #104.
https://www.gamesradar.com/ghost-mak...n-104-preview/

----------


## Ascended

> Yeah, and in his all time low he still sold more than the Teen Titans and Red Hood.
> 
> But if you think no one will buy his comic with the relaunch and a new creative team, the only thing we can do is wait and see.


Pretty much. 

I don't think the title or the character have been so damaged a rest is required. Ultimately, Ric was nothing more than a bad run and nothing more. You don't put a title on the shelf for 1-3 years every time that happens, you just get a new creative team and move on. Granted, Ric lasted longer than most bad runs, but we're not talking about Hawkman levels of stank. I think a proper relaunch with a creative team and direction worth getting excited about will bring the sales back up relatively quickly. But we'll just have to wait and see what DC offers and who's doing it and how well fans respond. 

But I tell you this, the Nightwing fandom is one of the most hardcore loyal, ride or die groups in comics. It took forever for the sales to start to really slip during the Ric saga, and there's not a lot of books that could keep going as strongly as Nightwing did in the face of such crap quality. If DC gives us something worth reading, I believe sales won't take long to recover. But we'll see how things play out. 

And I'm not even worried about Jurgens sticking around. DC fired half their damn staff and common wisdom would tell us that they kept the better half of their talent pool. And all the old guard editors/managers who kept people like Jurgens and Lobdell employed are gone too. And didn't Jurgens say he was leaving anyway? I'm not expecting "Grant Morrison" level of talent on Nightwing, but I'll be surprised if we get the same kind of bottom of the barrel creators we have been. 

And no offense to Jurgens here; I love what that man did in the Super books back in the 90's and I got nothing but respect for him. But he was not up to the challenge of making Ric worth reading. I don't know if anyone could have saved that idiot storyline.

----------


## WonderNight

> He was selling better before Ric. Which means he would have been better off without it. Nicola Scott shared this 
> 
> Attachment 102653
> 
> Honestly with future state being 2 months all of this could be forgotten. This is a shorten version of 5G anyway. So at this point they are probably seeing what will happen


Man I gotta get those abs!

----------


## Fergus

'Dick Grayson, the original and still the best...'

Countdown best Robin

https://www.gamesradar.com/best-robin-batman/

If DC is embracing looser continuity, encouraging artist creativity and more black label titles. I hope we get more stories with Dick as Robin.

I know Dick is Nightwing and that mantle needs some TLC right now but I wish we had more modern stories with RobinDick.

----------


## Frontier

> 'Dick Grayson, the original and still the best...'
> 
> Countdown best Robin
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/best-robin-batman/
> 
> If DC is embracing looser continuity, encouraging artist creativity and more black label titles. I hope we get more stories with Dick as Robin.
> 
> I know Dick is Nightwing and that mantle needs some TLC right now but I wish we had more modern stories with RobinDick.


As long as we don't see the New 52 Robin suit again...

----------


## prepmaster

Dick Grayson - the heart of Bat family

----------


## AmiMizuno

If it’s a clone that would be interesting

----------


## Frontier

Batman #104 preview featuring Dick and Babs.

----------


## The Kid

So as someone who dipped from Batman books for like the last year, what was the result of the Ric storyline? Is Dick back now and how did he return if so?

----------


## TheCape

> So as someone who dipped from Batman books for like the last year, what was the result of the Ric storyline? Is Dick back now and how did he return if so?


A bunch Nightwing imitators, a fight with Joker's daugther, another storyline involving the Court Of Owls and Dick's great grandpa, pretty forgetable overall it wasn't even in the "so bad that is good"(except for that hilarious meta comment in Lodbell's run) category is just boring. As for how he recovered, i don't remember all the details but it was a combination of the Owls brainwashing him and Joker altering his mind (i didn't read that last issue so i'm not sure of the details).

----------


## AmiMizuno

Joker had a crystal that helped Dick restore his memories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Scott Synder is doing it https://northoftheroad.tumblr.com/po...ightwing-pitch

----------


## Drako

> Scott Synder is doing it https://northoftheroad.tumblr.com/po...ightwing-pitch


We already discussed this here. It was you that made this post that i responded on reddit?  :Big Grin: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/c...t_will_happen/

----------


## Drako

Nightwing by Dan Mora.

https://twitter.com/Danmora_c/status...789825/photo/1



> #Nightwing to end the day

----------


## Drako

Huh... i guess is not Dick then.

----------


## Rakiduam

.....I appreciate they have made it clear with anticipation though.

----------


## WonderNight

Ok an idea just came to me, an idea about a potential status quo for Nightwing. One that can move Dick's character further and at the same time leave most fans happy(I hope).

But first I want to talk about some of the problems of Nightwing's current status quo.

1) Nightwing is under and to dependent on the bat franchise to much. He's a batman subordinate/substitute right now. Dick needs more space and independents from the bat mythos so he can build more of his own.

2) Nightwing is and feels so irrelevant and disconnected from the rest of the DCU, Dick is supposed to be one of (if not the most) connected, trusted and best leader in the DCU. But right now it feels like Nightwing doesn't exist outside of the bat mythos.

3) the batfamily is bloated, Gotham and the bat mythos is fuel of city based street vigilantes. From batgirl, spoiler, orhan, signal, red hood, red Robin, batwoman, blue bird  batwing, robin and batman himself. Nightwing being a city based street vigilante makes dick very redundant with the other bats.

I know there's been alot of great idea here for a future direction for Nightwing, some say globetrotter some titans others say JL ect.

So my solution would be all the above! Here me out. Give nightwing a solo and team book, and have Nightwing be both a leaguer AND titan.

Team) Team book would be a titans book, Nightwing as the leader and the link of the titans/teen titans to the league. Just like wonder woman with JLD and Batman with the outsiders.

Solo)Nightwing's solo would be a JL book (not a teambook though) the book would be about Nightwing's missions around the DCU as a JL member. Solo missions and interaction and relationships with other leaguer. His solo would basically be the return of Grayson but as a hero instead of a spy, just replace agent 37 with Nightwing and spyral with JL.

Last just gave Nightwing visit Gotham and the batfamily from time to time in the other batbooks.

Now with all of this Dick now has his independence, isn't redundant with the other bats, is connected to the larger DCU, has Leaguer status, the leader of his own team and visit the batfamily for bat events and guest roles. It's a win for Nightwing in my eyes, what do you all think?

Nightwing gets to be a Bat, (visit the batbook and events) a Titan (leader in the teambooks) and Leaguer (solo book Grayson style with Nightwing and JL instead of agent 37 and spyral) at the same time! 

Nightwing can finally be his own thing with his own niche and truly be the heart of the DCU. :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Pohzee

If Deathstoke Nightwing is actually Dick, I think it has the potential to be very interesting. Certainly an innovative way to tie Red X to both Dick and Deathstroke, and the idea to blend the gold/orange and blue of the Mulletwing and Deathstroke suits is a smart parallel.

----------


## Ascended

> Ok an idea just came to me, an idea about a potential status quo for Nightwing. One that can move Dick's character further and at the same time leave most fans happy(I hope).
> 
> Nightwing can finally be his own thing with his own niche and truly be the heart of the DCU..


Generally I think it's a fine idea. Plenty of people have protected their own city while also doing double (triple?) duty on more than one team. Dick could totally do this and I'd love to see him get that much exposure. I assume you'd have him in the League book as well right?

My only nitpick with the concept is the teams in question. I don't see the Titans being a good place for Dick right now (or any of the other classic members). At this point it's just regression, not growth, with no clear way forward. Not an impossible problem to overcome but a "let's just re-tell old NTT stories!" does not work. And the League won't end up being a benefit either, I don't think. The League is where the A-listers go, it's not the book that *elevates* characters to the A-list (just look at Vic and J'onn). I fear that on the League, Dick's role as Bat-lite would only be reinforced.

I'm definitely down with "Agent 37 but as Nightwing" and that's largely the keystone of my own ideas (as well as a collaboration with dropkickjake that turned out really well) and I don't think leaning on Dick's relationships and connections to groups like the JLA or Titans is a bad thing at all. But as they're presented these days, neither team really seems likely to help Dick very much. 

There's gotta be two other teams that will achieve a similar result (Dick can always visit his old Titans friends whether they're on a team roster or not) but is a little more surprising and unexpected.

----------


## WonderNight

> Generally I think it's a fine idea. Plenty of people have protected their own city while also doing double (triple?) duty on more than one team. Dick could totally do this and I'd love to see him get that much exposure. I assume you'd have him in the League book as well right?
> 
> My only nitpick with the concept is the teams in question. I don't see the Titans being a good place for Dick right now (or any of the other classic members). At this point it's just regression, not growth, with no clear way forward. Not an impossible problem to overcome but a "let's just re-tell old NTT stories!" does not work. And the League won't end up being a benefit either, I don't think. The League is where the A-listers go, it's not the book that *elevates* characters to the A-list (just look at Vic and J'onn). I fear that on the League, Dick's role as Bat-lite would only be reinforced.
> 
> I'm definitely down with "Agent 37 but as Nightwing" and that's largely the keystone of my own ideas (as well as a collaboration with dropkickjake that turned out really well) and I don't think leaning on Dick's relationships and connections to groups like the JLA or Titans is a bad thing at all. But as they're presented these days, neither team really seems likely to help Dick very much.


I get what you're saying but I believe it can work for nightwing in this way, because 1) nightwing as a leaguer doesn't have to be in the JL teambooks. Nightwing's solo would be his JL book, it will focus on nightwing as a globetrotting hero on solo league missions with some team ups here and there. Plus interactions with Leaguer at the hall of justice or watchtower as his "st.hadrains. dick doesn't even have be in a league teambooks (maybe some group shots) his solo will do the talking with him as the star and focus.

I believe you saw YJ.Outsiders right? Just imagine on one of his globetrotting missions but instead of it being for the team, it's his JL missions. Solo missions with some team ups with other leaguers from time to time. But its nightwing's solo book. Dick can visit Gotham and the batfamily in the others batbooks.

As for the titans well as I said dick can be both so he can have his solo Grayson style JL nightwing book independent of the titans. So titans can take its long rest and his JL solo can go on independently with batfamily teambook.

----------


## Badou

The only thing I liked from Future State was that Nightwing costume. Returning to the blue and gold felt fresh, but a Deathstroke mask kind of ruins it. The mask could have been blue and gold at least to match, lol. Now that Nightwing might not even be Dick? And I just have no interest in Red X as a character and the Titans look like it will be awful like usual. My expectation are so low after Future State I have no idea what toe expect when this mess is over.

----------


## WonderNight

Speaking of future state nightwing doesn't seem to have a future legacy of his own? No future Nightwing, DC really do view nightwing as just another sidekick don't they.

----------


## Rac7d*

Talon and Shriek from the Dixon Nightwing series will be joint the next version of the suicide squad 
His rouges gallery is finally forming

----------


## Tzigone

> Speaking of future state nightwing doesn't seem to have a future legacy of his own? No future Nightwing, DC really do view nightwing as just another sidekick don't they.


I actually think Nightwing should never be a legacy. It was an important aspect of the story that Dick was taking on his _own_ name.  I'm not a legacy fan in general, but Nightwing least of all, because that was about not being in the shadow of another hero.  A legacy would always be in Dick's shadow in a way that to me, would ...not exactly undermine, but be very contrary to what Dick was about when he took that identity.

----------


## Badou

In modern comics everything is a legacy it feels like. So I don't see Nightwing being immune to it, but at the same time I don't think DC cares enough about Nightwing to really care either way. That whole Teen Titans story sounds awful, but it is the Titans. So it was kind of expected as awful stories and the Titans kind of go hand in hand, haha. Also in the Injustice story and game they had Damian take over Nightwing, and more casual people are probably aware of that story than any more current Nightwing ones. Then they wanted Jason to take over Nightwing after Dick was supposed to die, and King wanted Tim to take over as Nightwing after being shot in the head. So there has been a lot of near stories where someone else was supposed to be Nightwing.

But overall I'm kind of indifferent to the Nightwing name and identity these days. To me it feels like Nightwing has hit its ceiling with how DC looks at it and the only direction he can go now is down, which is what the last few years have felt like to me.

----------


## Badou

Oh, and we just had the dumb cop Nightwings running around. I nearly had that erased from my memory, lol. So there is a very recent story of other characters running around in Nightwing costumes that weren't Dick. So Nightwing probably falls into being a legacy now.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Nightwing kind of always was a legacy since he got it from Superman. Though it may be a weird case since Clark never used it for anything more than an occasional side gig

----------


## Murrocko

https://twitter.com/Danmora_c/status...789825/photo/1


[/QUOTE]



Maaaaannnn, I love this costume. The boot highlights, arm / finger stripes, a utility belt. Can we get this after Future State?

----------


## Robanker

> https://twitter.com/Danmora_c/status...789825/photo/1




Maaaaannnn, I love this costume. The boot highlights, arm / finger stripes, a utility belt. Can we get this after Future State?[/QUOTE]

His best look from the artist I most want on Nightwing (*AFTER Once & Future wraps up*)!

This Dick as Deathstroke shit sounds like one last hurrah from Didio. Please no.

----------


## Mr. White

> Maaaaannnn, I love this costume. The boot highlights, arm / finger stripes, a utility belt. Can we get this after Future State?


[/QUOTE]His best look from the artist I most want on Nightwing (*AFTER Once & Future wraps up*)!

This Dick as Deathstroke shit sounds like one last hurrah from Didio. Please no.[/QUOTE]


----

^ This is something I don't want to happen any time soon...

----------


## OWL45

> Maaaaannnn, I love this costume. The boot highlights, arm / finger stripes, a utility belt. Can we get this after Future State?


His best look from the artist I most want on Nightwing (*AFTER Once & Future wraps up*)!

This Dick as Deathstroke shit sounds like one last hurrah from Didio. Please no.[/QUOTE]

I don't know it actually seems pretty cool. Given all the history between the two characters throughout Titans history, cartoon, and past storylines like Nightwing Renegade I'm intrigued by it to be honest. Nothing could be worse than Ric. This actually seems interesting.

----------


## OWL45

> If Deathstoke Nightwing is actually Dick, I think it has the potential to be very interesting. Certainly an innovative way to tie Red X to both Dick and Deathstroke, and the idea to blend the gold/orange and blue of the Mulletwing and Deathstroke suits is a smart parallel.


I agree with you on this. It's an interesting way to tie a lot of things together throughout the characters history. I'm going to approach this with a very open mind.

----------


## WonderNight

> But overall I'm kind of indifferent to the Nightwing name and identity these days. To me it feels like Nightwing has hit its ceiling with how DC looks at it and the only direction he can go now is down, which is what the last few years have felt like to me.


 I agree Nightwing has hit his ceiling, as a BAT! Nightwing as a Batman character has hit its ceiling but Nightwing as a independent ip hasn't even got started yet.

----------


## Avi

I think Deathstroke-Nightwing could be a cool idea. The thing for me is that Slade's and Dick's history has been erased since the N52 started. The only glimpse we've gotten of their interactions was Priest's run, then Dick had barely any influence in the... what was the crossover, Lazarus Contract? Makes me wonder if Red X won't be the only thing that's being integrated from the TT tv-show. With Newsarama being so set on saying it's Dick, I'm cautiously optimistic that this might be an intriguing glimpse into the future the same way Grayson: Futures End was, but given how bad this seems to handle the Titans I'll probably skip it.




> The only thing I liked from Future State was that Nightwing costume. Returning to the blue and gold felt fresh, but a Deathstroke mask kind of ruins it. The mask could have been blue and gold at least to match, lol. Now that Nightwing might not even be Dick? And I just have no interest in Red X as a character and the Titans look like it will be awful like usual. My expectation are so low after Future State I have no idea what toe expect when this mess is over.


A blue and gold Deathstroke mask would be pretty cool, but it seems more likely that this Nightwing just took it from the battlefield for whatever reason, so I get why it isn't. And yep, I have no idea what to expect either.

----------


## Claude

So, Sheridan on Titans not Williamson - that does surprise me! I'd imagined a bigger name, too, but then Sheridan was one of the writers Bleeding Cool flagged up as someone DC was very excited by earlier in the year...

Future State has Shazam having been part of the Titans, doesn't it? And with Sheridan too? I wonder if that means he'll join, or if Sheridan is getting the solo. Always thought Dick and Billy would be an interesting dynamic.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

Minus the Deathstroke mask, I really like the Future State costume. I wouldn't mind it being his regular costume from now on.

Helps that it makes him look slightly less like a Bat tie in character than the black/blue one does.

----------


## Frontier

I don't dislike it, but it doesn't feel as memorable or sleek as Dick's normal Nightwing look.

----------


## WonderNight

> Minus the Deathstroke mask, I really like the Future State costume. I wouldn't mind it being his regular costume from now on.
> 
> Helps that it makes him look slightly less like a Bat tie in character than the black/blue one does.


Won't really fit with the dark and gritty gotham and bludhaven feel. But maybe could work in that Vegas bludhaven theme.

----------


## WonderNight

We should be getting a announcement for the nightwing book tomorrow. What do you hope for and what do you expect to see from the nightwing book.

----------


## Godlike13

I’m not expecting much. Just a new creative team I’ll have to look up taking over, with a new but usual direction. They completely wasted bringing him back. Two years as Ric all for nothing. In the end they still couldn’t bring themselves to plan anything, as 5G was the plan. Now they dug him a hole they are unprepared and too lazy to even try to dig him out off. He probably dies in FE Titans and that was to be his fate in 5G, but with 5G canned last minute they had to come up with something else for him last minute. So ya, not expecting much. Just another last minute direction with a new creative team that had little time to prepare and their biggest potential hook wasted.

----------


## Pohzee

Snyder or nothing.

----------


## Badou

> I agree Nightwing has hit his ceiling, as a BAT! Nightwing as a Batman character has hit its ceiling but Nightwing as a independent ip hasn't even got started yet.


I don't think it has anything to do with being a Bat. It's just for so long we've wanted Nightwing to finally get some other media presence and over the last few years he actually got it, but it didn't have the effect I once thought it would have. I thought once he got it that would springboard the character, but it kind of lead to nothing it feels like. Now when you look at what DC/WB is doing with their characters they are giving shows and movies to so many different characters that it no longer feels special, and to me it feels like they don't really look at Nightwing as something they can do more with. So it feels like he hit his ceiling. The next could of years will be very telling I think if they think of Nightwing as a brand or character they can do more with or not.




> A blue and gold Deathstroke mask would be pretty cool, but it seems more likely that this Nightwing just took it from the battlefield for whatever reason, so I get why it isn't. And yep, I have no idea what to expect either.


The mask has the Nightwing domino design on it, which the classic Deathstroke mask doesn't have, right? So maybe he didn't just pick it up off Deathstroke even if it feels like he did? Dunno. Looking at the design I don't mind it and would like it see it in a blue and gold version of it. I'd actually like Nightwing to wear a cool mask going forward even though I know his fans would riot probably. It's just there is a lot of value in having a cool mask I think in terms of marketing and increasing brand awareness. Just look at a Spider-man, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Red Hood, or even Daredevil. Their mask is such an essential part to their characters and awareness. Nightwing doesn't really have anything like that which I personally think is something that hurts the character.




> I don't dislike it, but it doesn't feel as memorable or sleek as Dick's normal Nightwing look.


The blue and black costume is so basic though. It's basically an all black costume with bits of blue here and there, and it translates very poorly to live action and even other media as we have seen. Since they can't get the skin tight sleek look right. I'd just be fine with something more visually interesting now even if fans would hate it probably.




> We should be getting a announcement for the nightwing book tomorrow. What do you hope for and what do you expect to see from the nightwing book.


My hope is that they finally realize Bludhaven is a waste of time no matter how you dress it up, but I'm expecting more garbage Bludhaven stories. That is if he even gets his solo back after Future State.

----------


## Frontier

> The blue and black costume is so basic though. It's basically an all black costume with bits of blue here and there, and it translates very poorly to live action and even other media as we have seen. Since they can't get the skin tight sleek look right. I'd just be fine with something more visually interesting now even if fans would hate it probably.


If by basic you mean streamlined, then I agree  :Smile: .

I mean, I've never really seen it as poorly translated in other media for the most part but I guess it comes down to perspective.

----------


## Robanker

His best look from the artist I most want on Nightwing (*AFTER Once & Future wraps up*)!

This Dick as Deathstroke shit sounds like one last hurrah from Didio. Please no.[/QUOTE]


----

^ This is something I don't want to happen any time soon...[/QUOTE]

That book is great but he somehow squeezed in Dark Detective between issues and O&F is still solicited up to #16 without any delays I've noticed. Mora's a machine. Maybe he can do both. Who knows.

But I too am not willing to lose O&F for a DC book. Besides, DC would just give him to Batman the way they did Jiminez.

----------


## Badou

> If by basic you mean streamlined, then I agree .
> 
> I mean, I've never really seen it as poorly translated in other media for the most part but I guess it comes down to perspective.


I mean basic as in bland. It just just an all black jumpsuit where it feels like someone got a blue paint roller and went over his arms or chest. I don't mind it sometimes where it can look sleek like the Jim Lee version. Where it is skin tight and very clean, but that can't be done in other media well. It ends up looking like a weird black racecar jumpsuit with these awkward pieces of armor on it. There just isn't enough there to stand out as visually interesting, imo.

----------


## Frontier

> I mean basic as in bland. It just just an all black jumpsuit where it feels like someone got a blue paint roller and went over his arms or chest. I don't mind it sometimes where it can look sleek like the Jim Lee version. Where it is skin tight and very clean, but that can't be done in other media well. It ends up looking like a weird black racecar jumpsuit with these awkward pieces of armor on it. There just isn't enough there to stand out as visually interesting, imo.


I think there's something to be said for a design that's simple yet striking, like I feel the base Nightwing look is. I've never felt like that hasn't come across in media adaptions (animated movies, YJ, DCAU, even Titans), but again that's just my take. I don't think it's a suit that really needs a lot of bells and whistles.

----------


## OWL45

> I mean basic as in bland. It just just an all black jumpsuit where it feels like someone got a blue paint roller and went over his arms or chest. I don't mind it sometimes where it can look sleek like the Jim Lee version. Where it is skin tight and very clean, but that can't be done in other media well. It ends up looking like a weird black racecar jumpsuit with these awkward pieces of armor on it. There just isn't enough there to stand out as visually interesting, imo.


I think your right. The Nightwing suit to traditional fans of the character for nostalgia purposes is a great thing but for mass audience appeal it seems to not stand out much. Visually the Red Hood comes away more appealing if we are all being honest. I think Nightwing fans need to be open to change. Visually the costume from the future state Titans cover stands out. The mask has the Nightwing cowl imprinted on it. At least it looks that way in the picture. The sidearm is a call back to his time with Spyral.

----------


## Godlike13

Red Hood is just a jumpsuit with a jacket. Its the same vein. The black and blue jumsuit was sleak 20 years ago, but after multiple variations of it the look has gotten stale. Especially since the variations just get simpler and simpler. Its funny though, im not sure how its become Nightwing fans enforcing this. Like they have any influence over anything.

BTW im not sure the Future State Titans suit is even a new suit, or just an artist variation on his mullet phase suit.

----------


## Frontier

It looks more like an eyesore to me, but I'm not wholly against the look. 

But most characters tend to not change their base costume look once they settle on a "look."

----------


## Pohzee

Yeah I don't see why some are so antsy for a new look. I mean actually I do, because getting new things generates discussion and whatnot, but I really hate when people move away from what works. I really don't see how much more of any improvement you can get over the current design. Trying to change it for the sake of change just results in unnecessary details. Like when Jim Lee put the cuffs on the new Superman suit to make it "his own." No it isn't and you didn't add anything of value. Don't fix what isn't broken.

I think Nightwing has one of the coolest and most modern looking costume in comics, and I wouldn't want to roll the dice for any if the minor adjustments I'd like to see on it. Just look at Jason and Barbara's terrible redesigns. They are not and will not ever be their iconic look, and they will date all of the stories that they appear in when read in the future.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Yeah I don't see why some are so antsy for a new look. I mean actually I do, because getting new things generates discussion and whatnot, but I really hate when people move away from what works. I really don't see how much more of any improvement you can get over the current design. Trying to change it for the sake of change just results in unnecessary details. Like when Jim Lee put the cuffs on the new Superman suit to make it "his own." No it isn't and you didn't add anything of value. Don't fix what isn't broken.
> 
> I think Nightwing has one of the coolest and most modern looking costume in comics, and I wouldn't want to roll the dice for any if the minor adjustments I'd like to see on it. Just look at Jason and Barbara's terrible redesigns. They are not and will not ever be their iconic look, and they will date all of the stories that they appear in when read in the future.


All of this.   Well said.

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah I don't see why some are so antsy for a new look. I mean actually I do, because getting new things generates discussion and whatnot, but I really hate when people move away from what works. I really don't see how much more of any improvement you can get over the current design. Trying to change it for the sake of change just results in unnecessary details. Like when Jim Lee put the cuffs on the new Superman suit to make it "his own." No it isn't and you didn't add anything of value. Don't fix what isn't broken.
> 
> I think Nightwing has one of the coolest and most modern looking costume in comics, and I wouldn't want to roll the dice for any if the minor adjustments I'd like to see on it. Just look at Jason and Barbara's terrible redesigns. They are not and will not ever be their iconic look, and they will date all of the stories that they appear in when read in the future.


Oh man, I forgot about those cuffs. And so did a lot of artists  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Ascended

> I think Nightwing has one of the coolest and most modern looking costume in comics, and I wouldn't want to roll the dice for any if the minor adjustments I'd like to see on it. Just look at Jason and Barbara's terrible redesigns. They are not and will not ever be their iconic look, and they will date all of the stories that they appear in when read in the future.


Pretty much this.

Dick's blue-black costume is about as close to classic as he has, and it's an infinitely better design than most; simple, sleek, eye-catching and immediately recognizable as his. There's a reason the basic design hasn't changed in decades, and we've seen that it translates well to live action, animation and video games, which is more than can be said for many heroes. 

I do think Dick needs a marketable emblem instead of the chevron (or in addition to it) but generally his classic costume is one of those things where you don't need to reinvent the wheel. A little "artistic interpretation" is all you need; look at that art by Dan Mora a page back; it's not *strictly* the blue-black costume as we've seen it but it's instantly recognizable as Nightwing and that kind of minor tweaking is all you need.

That said, I also have no problem with Dick wearing a different costume once in a while as part of a specific story. Back in Infinite Crisis didn't he briefly wear the blue-yellow suit from the 90's because he needed the glider? Stuff like that, like when Bruce wears an all-white suit when he's in the arctic, that's fine. But the standard costume? Dick's is as close to perfect as you can get, and on the list of things in the Nightwing IP that need work, the costume is at the bottom of the list.

Also, did we get news of who the creators are going to be? That was supposed to be today right? I can't find anything on it though.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Pretty much this.
> 
> Dick's blue-black costume is about as close to classic as he has, and it's an infinitely better design than most; simple, sleek, eye-catching and immediately recognizable as his. There's a reason the basic design hasn't changed in decades, and we've seen that it translates well to live action, animation and video games, which is more than can be said for many heroes. 
> 
> I do think Dick needs a marketable emblem instead of the chevron (or in addition to it) but generally his classic costume is one of those things where you don't need to reinvent the wheel. A little "artistic interpretation" is all you need; look at that art by Dan Mora a page back; it's not *strictly* the blue-black costume as we've seen it but it's instantly recognizable as Nightwing and that kind of minor tweaking is all you need.
> 
> That said, I also have no problem with Dick wearing a different costume once in a while as part of a specific story. Back in Infinite Crisis didn't he briefly wear the blue-yellow suit from the 90's because he needed the glider? Stuff like that, like when Bruce wears an all-white suit when he's in the arctic, that's fine. But the standard costume? Dick's is as close to perfect as you can get, and on the list of things in the Nightwing IP that need work, the costume is at the bottom of the list.
> 
> Also, did we get news of who the creators are going to be? That was supposed to be today right? I can't find anything on it though.


Not as yet.  Just Detective,  Harley & Batman/Superman so far.

----------


## Drako

> Also, did we get news of who the creators are going to be? That was supposed to be today right? I can't find anything on it though.


Future State Batman panel is already over, they only announced Harley and TEC. So we'll have to wait for the solicits this week.

----------


## Frontier

I assume we'll keep the Future State creative team, although I'm not sure if Nicola Scott will stick around.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I assume we'll keep the Future State creative team, although I'm not sure if Nicola Scott will stick around.


Yeah I doubt so as well, however it would be one gorgeous book if she did!

----------


## DragonPiece

I'm still hoping for Williamson on Nightwing personally..

----------


## Vordan

> I'm still hoping for Williamson on Nightwing personally..


I expect he’ll be on JL

----------


## Ascended

> I assume we'll keep the Future State creative team, although I'm not sure if Nicola Scott will stick around.


You never know. New people in charge, new goals. We shouldn't expect this new DC administration to be like the previous one. The entire structure of the company and their production process has reportedly changed and most of the old guard management seem to be gone. 

I mean, maybe Dick keeps getting abused and ignored and treated like a sidekick. Maybe we get something better. Maybe *a lot* better. We'll find out when we find out, and while I'm not really expecting miracles here I'm trying to maintain some optimism.

As far as Nicola specifically goes, one of Nightwing's big things is his sex appeal, and everyone knows Nicola draws some damn pretty people. Might not be bad business, making sure Dick's book shows off his assets properly.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I'd love Scott on Nightwing, but that might also mean an even longer break between now and the next Black Magick arc, so I'm torn :Frown:

----------


## Badou

> Yeah I don't see why some are so antsy for a new look. I mean actually I do, because getting new things generates discussion and whatnot, but I really hate when people move away from what works. I really don't see how much more of any improvement you can get over the current design. Trying to change it for the sake of change just results in unnecessary details. Like when Jim Lee put the cuffs on the new Superman suit to make it "his own." No it isn't and you didn't add anything of value. Don't fix what isn't broken.
> 
> I think Nightwing has one of the coolest and most modern looking costume in comics, and I wouldn't want to roll the dice for any if the minor adjustments I'd like to see on it. Just look at Jason and Barbara's terrible redesigns. They are not and will not ever be their iconic look, and they will date all of the stories that they appear in when read in the future.


I don't think the current design generates much value for the character. It's very plain and doesn't stand out, has no memorable or recognizable elements to use for marketing purposes, and as I've said before it translates very poorly to live action and other media. I think the costume on the live action Titans show looks kind of awful, and all the animated costumes where they just slap a blue bird logo on it or armor plates doesn't look great either. 

To me over the last several years it has become incredibly important to have a very strong design that can stand out that can add extra value beyond just being on the comic page, and that is what can lead to greater opportunities for characters too. We are seeing that a lot now with the new characters publishers are creating, imo. Fans are allowed to think it is a great costume of course, as it is all opinion based, but I just don't really look at it and think it is anything special and don't know if it is something that would really attract interest from new fans or readers.

----------


## DragonPiece

> I expect he’ll be on JL


It's not. He said himself he was only on the book for death metal and the future state issues. https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...15217048489986

----------


## Claude

> Dick's blue-black costume is about as close to classic as he has, and it's an infinitely better design than most; simple, sleek, eye-catching and immediately recognizable as his. There's a reason the basic design hasn't changed in decades, and we've seen that it translates well to live action, animation and video games, which is more than can be said for many heroes.


It's a bit.... "Young Batman", though, isn't it? Which was what it was designed to be, when they were de-emphasising his Titans connections and tying him more strongly to the Bat Mythos, retooling him to patrolling a dark and crime-ridden city a bus-ride from Gotham.

It doesn't have any of the flamboyance, colour and extrovertism of Dick's character in the way that his Robin costume and the original disco or mullet era costume did.

----------


## Drako

There is no need to change his design, just tweak a couple of things. If the new 52 suit was blue and had the arms stripes, it would be perfect. The chicago suit was also a pretty good redesign, but i really dislike him in red.

Funnily enough, i started reading Batman comics cause of his silhouette on this cover.

----------


## Frontier

> It's a bit.... "Young Batman", though, isn't it? Which was what it was designed to be, when they were de-emphasising his Titans connections and tying him more strongly to the Bat Mythos, retooling him to patrolling a dark and crime-ridden city a bus-ride from Gotham.
> 
> It doesn't have any of the flamboyance, colour and extrovertism of Dick's character in the way that his Robin costume and the original disco or mullet era costume did.


I guess one way you could look at it is him growing older and toning some of that down.

----------


## Ascended

> It's a bit.... "Young Batman", though, isn't it? Which was what it was designed to be, when they were de-emphasising his Titans connections and tying him more strongly to the Bat Mythos, retooling him to patrolling a dark and crime-ridden city a bus-ride from Gotham.
> 
> It doesn't have any of the flamboyance, colour and extrovertism of Dick's character in the way that his Robin costume and the original disco or mullet era costume did.


Arguably yeah, we could say that Dick's blue-black suit is "young Batman" to a point, but that presumption is built on the iconic Bat suit of light gray/blue.....and that's a flimsy bridge. I don't think Bruce has ever used the bright blue/straight black colors that Nightwing does; it's gray/blue, black, or black/gray. Plenty of yellow on the logo and belt, but absolute black and bright primary blue? Has Bruce *ever* used those two? And he doesn't have a monopoly on "black costumes" any more than Clark has one on "blue costumes."

At most I think it's nothing more than a minor homage, and that's perfectly valid and fitting. It's also the suit Dick wore when he got his own book; not appearing in "Detective" or "Titans" but "Nightwing." I'd say the suit represents Dick's move to solo title status far more than it represents colors that, in a previous Age, Bruce sorta-kinda wore but not really. 

And the suit isn't flamboyant, no, but it shouldn't be. Yes, Dick is fun loving and can be flamboyant at times, but that's not *all* he is. It's only been since DC decided to segment the Robins' personalities into easily digestible Ninja Turtle flavors that Dick has been categorized as the "happy" one. Let's not forget that he could brood and angst with the best of them long before he became Nightwing or returned to the Bat office post-NTT. So his suit having a dark black as well as an eye-catching, bright and rich blue *does* reflect his personality. Hell, just having that target-drawing blue right over the vital organs when you're supposed to be a stealth-oriented ninja of justice is flamboyant.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

It's all subjective, of course, and I'm not trying to tell anyone their opinion is "wrong." But the suit *does* work; you can look at a image of Nightwing from BTAS, Young Justice, Titans tv, and DCU Online, and you can easily recognize it's supposed to be the same guy. The costume is adaptable across formats (even if you dislike a particular iteration) and the visual most people recognize Nightwing by (insofar as people recognize him at all). And changing the suit isn't going to make him any less of a Bat, and with everything else that needs to change behind the scenes in how DC utilizes the character, and everything that needs to be done on the page.....changing the costume beyond basic artistic license just seems like....why?

----------


## Rac7d*

They wouldn’t end Nightwing 77 with Hutch being the Nightwing of Bludhaven while Dick works on titans academy  would they?
Becuase I would loose faith in comics at that point.

----------


## WonderNight

Im at the point where I just what agent 37 back.

----------


## Ascended

> They wouldnt end Nightwing 77 with Hutch being the Nightwing of Bludhaven while Dick works on titans academy  would they?
> Becuase I would loose faith in comics at that point.


Well it really kind of depends on what DC plans to do with Dick after March, right? 

I can totally see Jurgens doing this, but if DC decides to get Dick out of Bludhaven or the next writer doesn't like the development, it'll be ignored and forgotten.

----------


## Avi

Why would write something so cursed Rac7d*...

And, same. Though, I have never stopped wanting Agent 37 back tbh. Orlando might be part of the line-up in March. I wish he would take over Nightwing. He's the only one who I could clearly see bring a Grayson influence back.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would write something so cursed Rac7d*...
> 
> And, same. Though, I have never stopped wanting Agent 37 back tbh. Orlando might be part of the line-up in March. I wish he would take over Nightwing. He's the only one who I could clearly see bring a Grayson influence back.


Im just low on faith after that disaster of a comic con yesterday

----------


## WonderNight

So the new titans book is a TEEN titans book so Nightwing is going to be just a background character for the younger hero just as Badou said. We also already know what his solo book will look like, just more bad bludhaven, batfam drama, bat villains and bat sidekick. I mean I love the dick grayson he's my fav but as it looks now, its not good at all.

----------


## Pohzee

But its an academy so we will obviously see Dick in a mentorship role. This is what I want to see. The first young superhero in turn raising a generation of young superheroes. Sign me up

----------


## WonderNight

> But its an academy so we will obviously see Dick in a mentorship role. This is what I want to see. The first young superhero in turn raising a generation of young superheroes. Sign me up


But he'll be in the background. All of the focus will be on the new characters, nightwing will be like batman in season 1 of young justice. He'll give out some missions, go on missions once in a blue moon and be gone and out the way for most of it. 

How is this good for nightwing? If dc really wanted us to see nightwing mentoring the next generation then they would've given him his own sidekick by now but they haven't.

Nightwing doesn't even have a real superhero team anymore he just a teacher at superhero boot camp.

Heck the may do the same with the batfamily. Nightwing loses his solo, gets put into a batfamily team book and "mentors"the young bats. Nightwing can just sit on the sidelines while the young titans and bats do all of the work, I mean get "mentored " by him.

----------


## Robanker

> There is no need to change his design, just tweak a couple of things. If the new 52 suit was blue and had the arms stripes, it would be perfect. The chicago suit was also a pretty good redesign, but i really dislike him in red.
> 
> Funnily enough, i started reading Batman comics cause of his silhouette on this cover.


Always a rad cover.

Just cancel the Nightwing book for a little while and relaunch The Brave and the Bold with Dick as the anchor character. After two years (four trades, essentially), relaunch Nightwing as a solo book with the stench of Ric washed away and re-establishing him as a rounded, well-connected hero who isn't Batman-lite.

You can keep both books running.

----------


## Frontier

> But its an academy so we will obviously see Dick in a mentorship role. This is what I want to see. The first young superhero in turn raising a generation of young superheroes. Sign me up


Yeah, and I assume he'll be the head teacher so he'll probably be the "face" of the book in that respect.

----------


## WonderNight

> Yeah, and I assume he'll be the head teacher so he'll probably be the "face" of the book in that respect.


I know I'm being a downer sorry about that but if you think nightwing's gonna be the "face" of a TEEN titans book wit an all new cast of characters., than nightwing fans haven't learned anything over the past decade.

----------


## Robanker

> I know I'm being a downer sorry about that but if you think nightwing's gonna be the "face" of a TEEN titans book wit an all new cast of characters., than nightwing fans haven't learned anything over the past decade.


On the other hand, who better to teach the Titans how to survive editorial hits?

I'd read a one-shot about Dick teaching people to survive events where they're in the crosshairs.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

Yea dick should teach them things like how to do the perfect squat for the perfect booty  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, its probably going to be like when Titans had its team shift. Hell be the marketing face, but narratively hell be a prop. TT just ran out of marketable characters so they found an excuse to import older members to try and help sell the current crop of kids.

----------


## Badou

That The Last Stories of the DC Universe thing was just awful for Dick, imo. 

*spoilers:*
So Dick decides to randomly leave that big gathering of Titans characters to go and meet Batman, and after he leaves Wally shows up. Donna is the one to confront him and hug him. Then later a zombie Roy comes back to help them with them greeting him back with even Wally and Roy giving a nod to each other, but even after Dick returns and is seen with the Titans again he has zero interaction with Wally or Roy. So no reunion between them or if there was then it happened completely off panel. So that pretty much ends Dick ever getting to address anything that happened with Wally or Roy now. For being the "face" of the Titans Nightwing did nothing and Donna was the one to do everything and give the speech, lol.

Then in the Batman family part of the issue Dick is just bugging Babs the whole time because he wants to "tell her something" with Babs doing her best to shoot down anything he wants to say. Then Bruce steps in and Dick then gets to ask Babs to marry him and then Bruce "marries" them before they go into the big battle. Dick just came across as so annoying in it to me, and it is made worse by how Dick in the last issue of Nightwing with all that terrible Bea drama with Dick saying how much he loved her.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Avi

> That The Last Stories of the DC Universe thing was just awful for Dick, imo. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So Dick decides to randomly leave that big gathering of Titans characters to go and meet Batman, and after he leaves Wally shows up. Donna is the one to confront him and hug him. Then later a zombie Roy comes back to help them with them greeting him back with even Wally and Roy giving a nod to each other, but even after Dick returns and is seen with the Titans again he has zero interaction with Wally or Roy. So no reunion between them or if there was then it happened completely off panel. So that pretty much ends Dick ever getting to address anything that happened with Wally or Roy now. For being the "face" of the Titans Nightwing did nothing and Donna was the one to do everything and give the speech, lol.
> 
> Then in the Batman family part of the issue Dick is just bugging Babs the whole time because he wants to "tell her something" with Babs doing her best to shoot down anything he wants to say. Then Bruce steps in and Dick then gets to ask Babs to marry him and then Bruce "marries" them before they go into the big battle. Dick just came across as so annoying in it to me, and it is made worse by how Dick in the last issue of Nightwing with all that terrible Bea drama with Dick saying how much he loved her.
> *end of spoilers*


Completely agree. 

*spoilers:*
It's a shame that the writers do not care about his relationships with other heroes at all. The platonic ones are completely disregarded - here and in Tec - and every love interest just makes him look desperate. Especially Babs. Not that I expected much from Castellucci.
*end of spoilers*

I hope the Endless Winter TT special is set before this and FS + March ignores it all. It is titled the Last Stories, so there is hope.

----------


## Godlike13

DC eats its own tail, what else is new. Dick is still the face of the Titans brand though. For better or worse. He still remains the one they market around, despite not actually doing anything with him narratively. Thats just more of the same problem with him when it comes to the Titans reading it head. “He has a solo” so the Titans refuse to actually do anything with him or use him how they market him, despite him being the brands biggest character. Thats along the same line here. He has another Bat storyline in the issue, so the Titans story has nothing for him.
 It’s counterproductive, but that’s how the Titans is for Dick. Do a big Titans reunion, have Hume make an appearance, but write Dick out to go do Bat things. But at least it was Donna. If Dick is the face, Donna’s the heart. Note though how you don’t see Donna on one Future State TTs cover or marketing though. It’s just like how they launched the new Titans direction by having Roy mock and beat him up right before those characters all left and Nightwing had to assemble this new direction. 

*spoilers:*
And Dick propose to Babs even though we just saw him crying for Bea. I’m shocked. Shocked I tell you.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

Dickbabs cannon again

----------


## Badou

> Completely agree. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> It's a shame that the writers do not care about his relationships with other heroes at all. The platonic ones are completely disregarded - here and in Tec - and every love interest just makes him look desperate. Especially Babs. Not that I expected much from Castellucci.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> I hope the Endless Winter TT special is set before this and FS + March ignores it all. It is titled the Last Stories, so there is hope.


*spoilers:*
The Wally and Roy thing really bugged me. The Babs thing is whatever. I don't expect it to last or matter given he was just crying his eyes out about Bea a month ago. I'm just done with comic romances at this point, but not having Dick have any interaction with Wally and Roy really bothered me. We will never get to see what Dick's reaction was when he learned what happened to them, and now we will never get a proper reunion with them either. It was kind of the only thing I was interested in seeing with Dick's return from being Ric. All they needed was one stupid panel of Dick with his arms around both Wally and zombie Roy and it would have been something at least, but now it is nothing.
*end of spoilers* 




> DC eats its own tail, what else is new. Dick is still the face of the Titans brand though. For better or worse. He still remains the one they market around, despite not actually doing anything with him narratively. Thats just more of the same problem with him when it comes to the Titans. “He has a solo” so the Titans refuse to actually do anything with him or use him how they market him, despite him being the brands biggest character. That along the same line here. It’s counterproductive, but that’s DC’s comic management for you. Note how you don’t see Donna on one Future State TTs cover or marketing though. It’s just like how they launched the new Titans direction by having Roy mock and beat him up right before those characters all left and Nightwing had to assemble this new direction.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> And Dick propose to Babs even though we just saw him crying for Bea. I’m shocked. Shocked I tell you.
> *end of spoilers*


We've had this argument before, but I just don't think Dick will ever be the face of the Titans. At least not fully. Robin will always be the face. So I don't see Dick or Nightwing ever being able to supplant Robin as the iconic face of the Titans. You could even argue that Raven, Cyborg, Starfire, and Beast Boy are more recognizable Titans than Nightwing in the general population. They obviously sell a ton more Titans related merch than Nightwing does given their exposure, but Nightwing is the bigger comics character because of Dick's history. It's just an odd situation. So I really don't think it has anything to do with Dick being a solo character since even before Dick was a solo hero he had awful Titans stories for years and years. It's just that leader role on the Titans, which generally ends up being a Bat character, always end up with them bearing the brunt of the awfulness of the Titans stories. Tim and Damian went through that recently with their Titans runs.

The same thing will happen again with Titans Academy probably. Dick acting as the authority figure and the one that will get knocked around or challenged to push the new young Titans characters. I've read enough X-Men to know these story beats. If Roy is back watch him challenge Dick's teaching methods or something and they get into another fight like always, lol.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick is Robin and Nightwing. We had this argument before, but where is Dick not at the forefront of the Titans. Cartoons, Tv show, even the comics sell him at the forefront even though the comics actual narratives undermine it. And Tim and Damian were unquestionably at the center of their last Titans runs narrative. They weren’t just background props like Dick ends up being. The stories out of their runs centered around them. They had character arcs and development. Where Dick gets non of that with the Titans anymore, and people just excuse it with well “he has a solo”. Despite him being the one character his Titans series can’t do without. 

And the same thing probably will happen with Titans Academy, and it will remain this counterproductive problem. Even though Red X is a persona a version of him created, and next to Red X he’s at the center of all the marketing.

----------


## Badou

> Dick is Robin and Nightwing. We had this argument before, but where is Dick not at the forefront of the Titans. Cartoons, Tv show, even the comics sell him at the forefront even though the comics actual narratives undermine it. And Tim and Damian were unquestionably at the center of their last Titans runs narrative. They werent just background props like Dick ends up being. The stories out of their runs centered around them. They had character arcs and development. Where Dick gets non of that with the Titans anymore, and people just excuse it well he has a solo. Despite him being the one character his Titans series cant do without. 
> 
> And the same thing probably will happen with Titans Academy, and it will remain this counterproductive problem. Even though Red X is a persona a version of him created.


I just think that DC/WB look at Dick/Nightwing and Robin as separate entities now. Robin has kind of morphed into its own character or identity split between all these characters especially spinning out of the Teen Titans cartoons. It isn't just Dick and as more time goes on and the further Dick is removed from that Robin identity I think the stronger that separation will get. Then because Robin will always be the iconic leader of the Titans and not Nightwing Dick is kind of stuck behind his own creation in a way. 

But I hesitate to call what Tim and Damian experienced in their recent Titans runs "development". It was more regression, but Tim had a solo book and has been on the Titans without a lot of issues during the Johns era, right? Not like Tim's solo was an issue for him back then, and in Dick's last Titans run he was at the center. Abnett's second run was built around Dick's own personal experience with that woman he couldn't save and him reforming the team. It's just Abnett didn't understand Dick's character and wrote him horribly, but he was a big focus of it before getting shot in the head.

I mean before Abnett when was the last Titans team Dick was on? That one that tried to copy the NTT era that ended with Roy hooked on super drugs and Deathstoke missing both eyes before Flashpoint? That is all I remember of how it ended now, haha. He left that team after a year when he became Batman, but that book wasn't very good. It was trying to prop itself up on NTT nostalgia as it immediately did a Trigon story when it launched if I remember right, and then into a traitor story. Then before that Titans book Dick was on that Outsiders team (which was launched after The Titans series ended with Graduation Day) where he was the main focus in the beginning. Dick formed that new Outsiders team after Donna died, right? There was all that drama around that. It's just again despite having a lot of focus he was just written like crap and kind of got abused as the leader with him again having to give up control to Batman. I dunno. That's 20 years of Titans or Titans-like stories and despite Dick getting focus in some of them they weren't very good.

----------


## Badou

*spoilers:*
I just remembered something from The Last Stories of the DC Universe thing. In that large spread that showed all the different Titans teams through the eras and reboots. Nightwing wasn't in any of them. It was Dick as Robin in the 70s Teen Titans and in the 80s New Teen Titans. Stuff like that is what makes me think Robin will always be the more iconic character than Nightwing when it comes to the Titans. A Robin character was in 5 of the 7 Titans lineups. Only a Flash character had more than 3.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

When is the last time we have seen Robin with out eventually Nightwing. I think it’s clear they see Nightwing as part of Robins overall mythos now. Not 2 different characters, but both part of the same character and overall mythos. 

Just because the runs weren’t good, doesn’t mean they weren’t the center pieces that drove the narrative of those runs. Having a solo doesn’t have to be a problem, but nevertheless it has served as an excuse to ignore or just use Dick as a prop this last decade. Abnett had 20+ issues to do something with the character, did nothing till they forced him to have to, then bang he’s gone. And then the book was gone. No character arc, no development, nothing said beyond doest being the JLs bitch undermine your character as a concept lol. They literally had to take every other character away from Abnett to get him to do something with Dick. The one character his book was proven couldn’t exists without. 

When was the last time his solo was any good. It’s no different on either side. They get what they give. It has to be an accident for us to get something good. Nevertheless Titans is where the opportunity is at these days. So it’d be foolhardy to forsake Titans with him just because the comics have been bad. He is tethered to the Titans, and always will be regardless. It’s fruitless to fight it.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Dickbabs cannon again


...For now.

----------


## Frontier

> I know I'm being a downer sorry about that but if you think nightwing's gonna be the "face" of a TEEN titans book wit an all new cast of characters., than nightwing fans haven't learned anything over the past decade.


I think the juggling of the old and new characters will be what makes or breaks the book. 



> That The Last Stories of the DC Universe thing was just awful for Dick, imo. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So Dick decides to randomly leave that big gathering of Titans characters to go and meet Batman, and after he leaves Wally shows up. Donna is the one to confront him and hug him. Then later a zombie Roy comes back to help them with them greeting him back with even Wally and Roy giving a nod to each other, but even after Dick returns and is seen with the Titans again he has zero interaction with Wally or Roy. So no reunion between them or if there was then it happened completely off panel. So that pretty much ends Dick ever getting to address anything that happened with Wally or Roy now. For being the "face" of the Titans Nightwing did nothing and Donna was the one to do everything and give the speech, lol.
> 
> Then in the Batman family part of the issue Dick is just bugging Babs the whole time because he wants to "tell her something" with Babs doing her best to shoot down anything he wants to say. Then Bruce steps in and Dick then gets to ask Babs to marry him and then Bruce "marries" them before they go into the big battle. Dick just came across as so annoying in it to me, and it is made worse by how Dick in the last issue of Nightwing with all that terrible Bea drama with Dick saying how much he loved her.
> *end of spoilers*


This all sounds kind of...all over the place.

----------


## Pohzee

Wait, what? *spoilers:*
He's married to Barbara? What?
*end of spoilers* 

That can't be for real. Talk about unearned.

----------


## Ascended

I doubt it'll ever be referenced again, outside of Metal. It's a throwaway POS scene and nothing more. Pretty much like everything else the last couple years.

----------


## Konja7

> I doubt it'll ever be referenced again, outside of Metal. It's a throwaway POS scene and nothing more. Pretty much like everything else the last couple years.


Even in Metal, they have said the marriage is only official until the end of this adventure.

So, the writers already know this won't be continúed.

----------


## Pohzee

If Dick is going to be increasing his involvement with the Titans, don't shackle him with a love interest in Gotham. We've seen DickBabs 1000 times. Let's see a modern take of him and Starfire or something new and not limiting.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If Dick is going to be increasing his involvement with the Titans, don't shackle him with a love interest in Gotham. We've seen DickBabs 1000 times. Let's see a modern take of him and Starfire or something new and not limiting.



He is always shackled to Gotham love interest or not. Now more then ever it would be time to rekindle their friendship and working relationship. They will be working together and teaching. Its good to have boundaries in front of their student or you get the Jean/Scott/Logan mess. 

You got your modern Dick and Kory in the new 52 movies

----------


## Frontier

> If Dick is going to be increasing his involvement with the Titans, don't shackle him with a love interest in Gotham. We've seen DickBabs 1000 times. Let's see a modern take of him and Starfire or something new and not limiting.


Yeah, I feel like we're due some DickxKori with how hard they've been trying to make DickxBabs work (yet not work).

----------


## Pohzee

> He is always shackled to Gotham love interest or not. Now more then ever it would be time to rekindle their friendship and working relationship. They will be working together and teaching. It’s good to have boundaries in front of their student or you get the Jean/Scott/Logan mess. 
> 
> You got your modern Dick and Kory in the new 52 movies


I gave those movies 3 chances too many. Often terrible and never rose above mediocrity.

----------


## Frontier

> I gave those movies 3 chances too many. Often terrible and never rose above mediocrity.


I enjoyed them. Dick and Kori's relationship was pretty good  :Smile: .

----------


## Pohzee

I actually did enjoy them in that. They seemed like a healthy couple and without angst.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I actually did enjoy them in that. They seemed like a healthy couple and without angst.


At least till the finale 

But Babs doesn’t have a book anymore which makes it possible

----------


## WonderNight

The dickbabs thing was just shipper fan service, it wont matter outside of this issue. Dick doesn't need romance right now but if he does please no one from Gotham or batfam. Im sick of dicks world revolving around batman, gotham and batfam. Nightwing has become nothing more than another robin and batgirl steading behind batman as one of his many little subordinates. All Barbara mean for Nightwing is more bat sidekick.

----------


## K. Jones

I liked almost everything about the DC Last Days of the Special. Except the DickBabs stuff. And I'm 100% a constantly awkward in, out, mad, not mad, Sam & Diane Dick & Babs insane chronology, story and I ship them differently and in that on-again/off-again, depends on the story execution way, than I ship other characters. But nothing in this Death Metal event in the slightest, and nothing in any of the recent comic books remotely indicates anything that makes this earned to any degree. There's no recent history of Dick & Babs Escalation in anything and not that much skin in the game of stakes in a "The Universe Might End" storyline to sell it as a concept - even for a get-out-of-consequences-free brief bit of story that goes out of its way to just have it be this "hey it's just one night before another Crisis might happen" shared stress trauma settle things and hash it out gimmick.

But that said there was one thing I did like. I like the concept - not necessarily timed well here - but I like the concept of Dick and Babs falling into Sam & Diane style bickering again once more ... and Bruce entering the picture finally being a little less distant from his close friends and being like "You know what ... I do have personal skin in this game and I'm sick of you two engaging in this cycle or pattern so I challenge you to do something different," sort of thing. It's surprisingly human and switched-on of Bruce to finally stop focusing so much on Crime Conspiracies and Detective Puzzles and Global Contingency Plans and look at his two friends like a person and to ... well, to ALFRED THEM a little.

----------


## Frontier

> I liked almost everything about the DC Last Days of the Special. Except the DickBabs stuff. And I'm 100% a constantly awkward in, out, mad, not mad, Sam & Diane Dick & Babs insane chronology, story and I ship them differently and in that on-again/off-again, depends on the story execution way, than I ship other characters. But nothing in this Death Metal event in the slightest, and nothing in any of the recent comic books remotely indicates anything that makes this earned to any degree. There's no recent history of Dick & Babs Escalation in anything and not that much skin in the game of stakes in a "The Universe Might End" storyline to sell it as a concept - even for a get-out-of-consequences-free brief bit of story that goes out of its way to just have it be this "hey it's just one night before another Crisis might happen" shared stress trauma settle things and hash it out gimmick.
> 
> But that said there was one thing I did like. I like the concept - not necessarily timed well here - but I like the concept of Dick and Babs falling into Sam & Diane style bickering again once more ... and Bruce entering the picture finally being a little less distant from his close friends and being like "You know what ... I do have personal skin in this game and I'm sick of you two engaging in this cycle or pattern so I challenge you to do something different," sort of thing. It's surprisingly human and switched-on of Bruce to finally stop focusing so much on Crime Conspiracies and Detective Puzzles and Global Contingency Plans and look at his two friends like a person and to ... well, to ALFRED THEM a little.


Bruce's role felt so random.

----------


## Rac7d*

This seems no different to me then the Rogue Gambit marrige,

they said lets cut the will they wont they crap and do it. 
They have the history and always come back to each other

----------


## Frontier

> This seems no different to me then the Rogue Gambit marrige,
> 
> they said lets cut the will they wont they crap and do it. 
> They have the history and always come back to each other


Except I don't think we're going to be seeing this referenced after Death Metal  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Flash Gordon

> I liked almost everything about the DC Last Days of the Special. Except the DickBabs stuff. And I'm 100% a constantly awkward in, out, mad, not mad, Sam & Diane Dick & Babs insane chronology, story and I ship them differently and in that on-again/off-again, depends on the story execution way, than I ship other characters. But nothing in this Death Metal event in the slightest, and nothing in any of the recent comic books remotely indicates anything that makes this earned to any degree. There's no recent history of Dick & Babs Escalation in anything and not that much skin in the game of stakes in a "The Universe Might End" storyline to sell it as a concept - even for a get-out-of-consequences-free brief bit of story that goes out of its way to just have it be this "hey it's just one night before another Crisis might happen" shared stress trauma settle things and hash it out gimmick.
> 
> But that said there was one thing I did like. I like the concept - not necessarily timed well here - but I like the concept of Dick and Babs falling into Sam & Diane style bickering again once more ... and Bruce entering the picture finally being a little less distant from his close friends and being like "You know what ... I do have personal skin in this game and I'm sick of you two engaging in this cycle or pattern so I challenge you to do something different," sort of thing. It's surprisingly human and switched-on of Bruce to finally stop focusing so much on Crime Conspiracies and Detective Puzzles and Global Contingency Plans and look at his two friends like a person and to ... well, to ALFRED THEM a little.


Seeing Bruce go into "Best Friend Mode" is a delight for me. More of that! More of THAT! More Papa Batman being a straight up PAL, ya know?

----------


## Robanker

> Seeing Bruce go into "Best Friend Mode" is a delight for me. More of that! More of THAT! More Papa Batman being a straight up PAL, ya know?


You're asking a lot, but yeah. I'm tired of "but Bruce died in the alley, Batman is a diiiiick."

Bro. If he died in the alley, some jackass pulling a gun on Bruce in Crime Alley wouldn't piss him off. Bruce is still in there and he's a good person. Stop making Bruce so unlikable.




> I doubt it'll ever be referenced again, outside of Metal. It's a throwaway POS scene and nothing more. Pretty much like everything else the last couple years.


Starfire needing to show up and say "and I'm leaving the ship war! Congrats on the flawless victory" really did just turn the whole thing into fanfic.

----------


## Digifiend

> Yeah, and I assume he'll be the head teacher so he'll probably be the "face" of the book in that respect.


At least he has experience as a teacher, which is more than can be said for most of the Titans. When he was Agent 37, his cover identity was as a PE teacher.



> That The Last Stories of the DC Universe thing was just awful for Dick, imo. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So Dick decides to randomly leave that big gathering of Titans characters to go and meet Batman, and after he leaves Wally shows up. Donna is the one to confront him and hug him. Then later a zombie Roy comes back to help them with them greeting him back with even Wally and Roy giving a nod to each other, but even after Dick returns and is seen with the Titans again he has zero interaction with Wally or Roy. So no reunion between them or if there was then it happened completely off panel. So that pretty much ends Dick ever getting to address anything that happened with Wally or Roy now. For being the "face" of the Titans Nightwing did nothing and Donna was the one to do everything and give the speech, lol.
> 
> Then in the Batman family part of the issue Dick is just bugging Babs the whole time because he wants to "tell her something" with Babs doing her best to shoot down anything he wants to say. Then Bruce steps in and Dick then gets to ask Babs to marry him and then Bruce "marries" them before they go into the big battle. Dick just came across as so annoying in it to me, and it is made worse by how Dick in the last issue of Nightwing with all that terrible Bea drama with Dick saying how much he loved her.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
It makes sense that it was Donna. After Dick was shot and abandoned the last Titans team (having forgotten they existed!), she took over as leader.
*end of spoilers*




> DC eats its own tail, what else is new. Dick is still the face of the Titans brand though. For better or worse. He still remains the one they market around, despite not actually doing anything with him narratively. Thats just more of the same problem with him when it comes to the Titans reading it head. “He has a solo” so the Titans refuse to actually do anything with him or use him how they market him, despite him being the brands biggest character. Thats along the same line here. He has another Bat storyline in the issue, so the Titans story has nothing for him.
>  It’s counterproductive, but that’s how the Titans is for Dick. Do a big Titans reunion, have Hume make an appearance, but write Dick out to go do Bat things. But at least it was Donna. If Dick is the face, Donna’s the heart. Note though how you don’t see Donna on one Future State TTs cover or marketing though. It’s just like how they launched the new Titans direction by having Roy mock and beat him up right before those characters all left and Nightwing had to assemble this new direction. 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> And Dick propose to Babs even though we just saw him crying for Bea. I’m shocked. Shocked I tell you.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Donna is dead in Future State, we see her gravestone in the Teen Titans preview.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Pohzee

> Starfire needing to show up and say "and I'm leaving the ship war! Congrats on the flawless victory" really did just turn the whole thing into fanfic.


Did that actually happen in the Titans story? lmao

----------


## Godlike13

> Did that actually happen in the Titans story? lmao


She just says she’s happy for them.

----------


## Frontier

Admittedly she was also supportive of them in that issue of Convergence where they got married.

----------


## Robanker

> Admittedly she was also supportive of them in that issue of Convergence where they got married.


I dunno, man. Bringing her out just to give their ship a thumbs up during the scene where all the heroes are gathering instead of so many other interactions really did seem like DC was trying to have her wave the white flag rather than a character moment. 

Convergence was literally about them getting married. This was an entire DCU special. Seemed kind of contrived to me, but I admit I like DickFire better than DickBabs at this point. Perhaps residual salt made me lean that direction.

Just remember thinking "of all the things to focus on, it's the Grayson ship war again. Alright lol"

----------


## Godlike13

She was already there. Honestly it be weirder if they didn't have her say anything, and had her awkwardly just be in the background.

----------


## Frontier

> I dunno, man. Bringing her out just to give their ship a thumbs up during the scene where all the heroes are gathering instead of so many other interactions really did seem like DC was trying to have her wave the white flag rather than a character moment. 
> 
> Convergence was literally about them getting married. This was an entire DCU special. Seemed kind of contrived to me, but I admit I like DickFire better than DickBabs at this point. Perhaps residual salt made me lean that direction.
> 
> Just remember thinking "of all the things to focus on, it's the Grayson ship war again. Alright lol"


I would've rather have seen Dick interact with Wally and Roy than see Kori give the thumbs up, but it is what it is.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I would've rather have seen Dick interact with Wally and Roy than see Kori give the thumbs up, but it is what it is.


Zombie Roy makes me kinda sick to look at, Lazarus pits, and a dozen other types of incredible magic and they cant revive him.
There like at least two godesses, a genie, a demon and whatever the hell else

----------


## Robanker

> I would've rather have seen Dick interact with Wally and Roy than see Kori give the thumbs up, but it is what it is.


Pretty much this. There were a million things I'd care more about, and since this is guaranteed not to actually stick, Starfire only showed up _because_ they wanted to have her say "I accept the L," effectively. 

Look, if this puts the Nightwing ship wars to bed, fine. Even if I prefer Starfire, fine. I want that to stop haunting the character. I will also not pretend this wasn't clumsy as all hell.

----------


## Godlike13

Starfire showed up because she is a Titan.

----------


## Digifiend

> Zombie Roy makes me kinda sick to look at, Lazarus pits, and a dozen other types of incredible magic and they cant revive him.
> There like at least two godesses, a genie, a demon and whatever the hell else


I bet Djinn from the Glass Titans would be capable of a proper resurrection. Though it's odd that she was present there as last we saw she went off with Jakeem Thunder.

----------


## Robanker

> Starfire showed up because she is a Titan.


Everyone in the DCU was there. They only gave Starfire that panel because she's the other half of the ship war.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Everyone in the DCU was there. They only gave Starfire that panel because she's the other half of the ship war.


Can we just give starfire a new boyfriend something else to focus on

----------


## Badou

Dick hasn't dated Starfire in the comics in like 25 years. People need to accept that Starfire hasn't been a relevant love interest for Dick in the comics for a long time and move on. I don't think either Starfire or Babs (mainly since the New 52 will they/won't they crap) are good love interests given how terrible Dick is generally written with either of them, but there is really no competition between them in the comics despite what other media does. It's just been Babs for a long time.

But I'm completely over any love interest for Dick these days. They are all written like garbage, but my big issue with the Babs thing in that special was how unearned it was. Last month we just had Dick crying his eyes out for Bea and Dick talking about how in love he was with her. Going from that to Dick wanting to ask Babs to marry him was just so poorly done and adds another check mark to how completely useless love interests like Bea are, imo. They are a complete waste of time and page space.

----------


## Godlike13

> Everyone in the DCU was there. They only gave Starfire that panel because she's the other half of the ship war.


Ya, and so Starfire was already there. They didn’t bring her out, she was already there and part of the big Titans reunion. So they had her congratulate them rather then just awkwardly ignore her already being there. I’m not seeing the offense here. Dick and her just did a big mission together too. Having her awkwardly avoid him for reasons like we saw in RHatO would have just been weird.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ya, and so Starfire was already there. They didnt bring her out, she was already there and part of the big Titans reunion. So they had her congratulate them rather then just awkwardly ignore her already being there. Im not seeing the offense here. Dick and her just did a big mission together too. Having her awkwardly avoid him for reasons like we saw in RHatO would have just been weird.


He was avoiding her not the other way around.

----------


## Frontier

> Dick hasn't dated Starfire in the comics in like 25 years. People need to accept that Starfire hasn't been a relevant love interest for Dick in the comics for a long time and move on. I don't think either Starfire or Babs (mainly since the New 52 will they/won't they crap) are good love interests given how terrible Dick is generally written with either of them, but there is really no competition between them in the comics despite what other media does. It's just been Babs for a long time.
> 
> But I'm completely over any love interest for Dick these days. They are all written like garbage, but my big issue with the Babs thing in that special was how unearned it was. Last month we just had Dick crying his eyes out for Bea and Dick talking about how in love he was with her. Going from that to Dick wanting to ask Babs to marry him was just so poorly done and adds another check mark to how completely useless love interests like Bea are, imo. They are a complete waste of time and page space.


I'm ready for a DickFire resurgence  :Smile: .

----------


## Ascended

> I'm ready for a DickFire resurgence .


I'm definitely not against the idea, between Kori and Babs I've always been team Kori. Babs and Dick are just....bad for each other, their relationship usually makes him end up looking irresponsible and/or immature and her looking like a control freak with commitment issues. 

But I think Badou is right; it's past time for all three of these characters to move the hell on. They all need varying degrees of TLC as individuals first but we need to get past this failure of a love triangle. 

Other media uses both relationships and can continue to do so, but it's played out in the comics.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Dick hasn't dated Starfire in the comics in like *25 years*. People need to accept that Starfire hasn't been a relevant love interest for Dick in the comics for a long time and move on. I don't think either Starfire or Babs (mainly since the New 52 will they/won't they crap) are good love interests given how terrible Dick is generally written with either of them, but there is really no competition between them in the comics despite what other media does. It's just been Babs for a long time.
> 
> But I'm completely over any love interest for Dick these days. They are all written like garbage, but my big issue with the Babs thing in that special was how unearned it was. Last month we just had Dick crying his eyes out for Bea and Dick talking about how in love he was with her. Going from that to Dick wanting to ask Babs to marry him was just so poorly done and adds another check mark to how completely useless love interests like Bea are, imo. They are a complete waste of time and page space.


25 years? I thought for sure Dick and Star had something going on at one point in the 2008-2011 Titans series

----------


## AmiMizuno

Dick and Starfire have dated in and out of cannon recently. Not only that but they have been married in elseworld like New order. They have also dated in the animated movies. The issue is how Babs is shown to be this better choice by bashing Kori Babs is shown to be fickle to be terrible to Dick. Goes back and forth with denying or accepting his advances. They slut shame Kori. Mar'i in cannon right before New 52 is cannon to convergence. So it's not like the two haven't dated. So it haven't been 25 years. With Babs being in the Titans show they will most likely do the love triangle. I'm tired of Babs and Kori because Dick puts one of them down generally Kori to make the other look better. If Bats can have multiple love interests why not Dick. It's time to add a third one. What hero would be good. At first I thought Supergirl but they keep aging her down. Dc never wants to commit to anything. Has they have shown they are willing to go to Kori when it's nice or Babs. I think if we want both have a comic that takes place on another earth where Dick and Kori are together. It's not hard to give fans the best of both. If I had to pick a third option how about Donna?

----------


## Rac7d*

Why is the only thing people discuss about starfire is if she dick Grayson girlfriend. 40 years and that’s all she brings to the table?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Honestly if I had to give it to Starfire. She is able to give the reason for the Titans to space travel. She is a amazing character despite everything she went through. She is able to still be sweet and kind. So no that's not all what she brings to the table. She lead part of the JL in rebirth. She is shown to be a great leader.




> Why is the only thing people discuss about starfire is if she dick Grayson girlfriend. 40 years and that’s all she brings to the table?


Because they are talking about all the love interests. That and it's always a fight between Babs and Starfire.

----------


## Pohzee

With it having been so long since a proper Starfire pairing, that gives it more potential to freshly explore it from a new angle with modern storytelling.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Not only that but Babs could in a sense cause more issues.If anything it ties him more down to the Batfam.  She only ever been a Batfam with the exception of BoP. That is now gone. She only operations in Gotham. With both Kori and Dick they both worked with the Titans and JL. There is way more Story options than with Babs. Not only that but Babs has always had issues with how she feels. Like she rejects Dick proposal, she gets jealous and yells at him. Despite the fact they were broken up and she and him moved up. If anything it shows how toxic she can be. I mean this personality has been consistence. Babs can be the girl if she is always fickle or yells at him for sleeping with a woman when she doesn't have the details that he was raped. This wasn't the only time she has done that.It's the fact Starfire often way more story with or without being a love interest. Starfire could have her own comic series and now a mini but Dc has issues.

----------


## WonderNight

> But I'm completely over any love interest for Dick these days. They are all written like garbage, but my big issue with the Babs thing in that special was how unearned it was. Last month we just had Dick crying his eyes out for Bea and Dick talking about how in love he was with her. Going from that to Dick wanting to ask Babs to marry him was just so poorly done and adds another check mark to how completely useless love interests like Bea are, imo. They are a complete waste of time and page space.


I agree, but you know at this point what is it to look forward to with nightwing besides love interest? Having a stable supporting cast? Yea right... an Interesting Bludhaven? Yea right... interesting villains? Maybe... interesting stable job? Good luck.

Love interest are the only thing that most fans can really give a crap about with nightwing, and that's crap also. We know dick won't be relevant outside of the bat books so all we really have is more of the last 10 years of nightwing a.k.a nothing!

Grayson was the only thing about dick grayson that was good and relevant since the flashpoint reboot. 

So I get why people spend so much time on shipping nightwing (even though it'll just be more will they won't they with babs) there's nothing else.

----------


## WonderNight

> Why is the only thing people discuss about starfire is if she dick Grayson girlfriend. 40 years and that’s all she brings to the table?


 The real question is what does Barbara bring to the table besides more batfam and gotham?

----------


## AmiMizuno

Well there seems to be a new Titans book on the way. So the question is can a good Titans book happen. If they can have that than Dick doesn't have to be tied with Batfam either. I feel Dc is doing this on purpose. That they don't want Titans to be good. They want him to be close to the Bats but he isn't just a Bat but also a Titans.The question is now what is Dick's supporting Team? Unlike Bruce or Clark. Dick has way too many changes. Who should be kept?




> The real question is what does Barbara bring to the table besides more batfam and gotham?



Nothing really. She has no team and with Kori she works with both JL and Titans. We have the outerspace travel. There is far more stories to tell with Dick and Kori. I get why people like Babs and Dick they are with the Batfam and have a good dynamic but there comes a point where Babs has been the most passed around character. She been with almost ever single batfam.Many comics she is shown to be fickle person and rejects Grayson then yells at Dick for moving on. When they do her right, I love her and Dick's relationships but at times there is her fickleness and her jealous nature. That can get out of control. Since medias and elsewhere comics have Starfire/Dick dating we won't stop having people talking about Dick/Kori

----------


## Badou

> I'm ready for a DickFire resurgence .


That is honestly the last thing I'd want. The Starfire romance was just as or probably even more toxic than the current Babs one when they last dated, but for some reason people act like that wasn't the case? I guess other media really overwrites what people remember of their in comic romance, but it was really bad at times. Plus I already dislike how tied down Dick is to the Titans as a franchise. I wish Dick was allowed to move on to other teams in the comics instead of constantly being dragged back to the Titans mess all the time, but that is a separate issue.

Although more than anything I just don't think Starfire is a very good character that offers much utility for stories. You can't really tell more grounded stories when Dick is dating an orange alien with fire for hair and superpowers. You are incredibly limited with what you can do and there is a reason you don't see romances like that in comics very often. Just have Starfire date Cyborg or something where they can at least be stuck in the Titans together maybe. I thought Odyssey was setting that up but it never happened, or just have her date Roy again given how "in love" they were according to Lobdell, lol.




> 25 years? I thought for sure Dick and Star had something going on at one point in the 2008-2011 Titans series


Yeah, they haven't dated in the comics since Dick became a solo character basically. So it has been like 25 years. So when he became a Batman character again.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nothing really. She has no team and with Kori she works with both JL and Titans. We have the outerspace travel. There is far more stories to tell with Dick and Kori. I get why people like Babs and Dick they are with the Batfam and have a good dynamic but there comes a point where Babs has been the most passed around character. She been with almost ever single batfam.Many comics she is shown to be fickle person and rejects Grayson then yells at Dick for moving on. When they do her right, I love her and Dick's relationships but at times there is her fickleness and her jealous nature. That can get out of control. Since medias and elsewhere comics have Starfire/Dick dating we won't stop having people talking about Dick/Kori


There aren't necessarily more stories to tell with Dick and Kory, as Kory changes the kinds of stories they can tell with Dick. And need i bring up RHatOs. Neither are immune from bad characterizations or being passed around. Babs is just easier to slot in and out of Dick's solo life, and vice versa. 

Thats why they keep it in the state they do. Like this marriage and it being unearned, it is, but at the same time its isn't cause they purposely keep their relationship in such a stop and go state. Its frustrating but that state makes things more convenient for them to pull it out when they want, and do things like "hey lets get married. Ok sure.".

----------


## Rac7d*

> Well there seems to be a new Titans book on the way. So the question is can a good Titans book happen. If they can have that than Dick doesn't have to be tied with Batfam either. I feel Dc is doing this on purpose. That they don't want Titans to be good. They want him to be close to the Bats but he isn't just a Bat but also a Titans.The question is now what is Dick's supporting Team? Unlike Bruce or Clark. Dick has way too many changes. Who should be kept?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing really. She has no team and with Kori she works with both JL and Titans. We have the outerspace travel. There is far more stories to tell with Dick and Kori. I get why people like Babs and Dick they are with the Batfam and have a good dynamic but there comes a point where Babs has been the most passed around character. She been with almost ever single batfam.Many comics she is shown to be fickle person and rejects Grayson then yells at Dick for moving on. When they do her right, I love her and Dick's relationships but at times there is her fickleness and her jealous nature. That can get out of control. Since medias and elsewhere comics have Starfire/Dick dating we won't stop having people talking about Dick/Kori


Nothing really, Babs accession to Oracle makes priceless resource to Batman, JL, Titans the BOP. She on many teams.  starfire only last decade had any kind of affiliation with the justice league. Her only progression seem to be from hero to den mother for the next crop of titans.  Has starfire ever made significant relationship with anyone aside from Dick. Briefly with Roy, who is now deceased. But even he has played the field between Cheshire and Donna Troy.

----------


## Restingvoice

> 25 years? I thought for sure Dick and Star had something going on at one point in the 2008-2011 Titans series


They screw each other under the influence of the return of Trigon but I don't remember anything beyond that first issue

----------


## Frontier

> I'm definitely not against the idea, between Kori and Babs I've always been team Kori. Babs and Dick are just....bad for each other, their relationship usually makes him end up looking irresponsible and/or immature and her looking like a control freak with commitment issues.


I like Dick and Babs but it's become too much of a constant will they/won't they thing with no development and no real satisfying reason for them to just not be together, so I'm fine with giving that a break. 

Giving some love to DickxKori comics-wise would just feel refreshing. 



> That is honestly the last thing I'd want. The Starfire romance was just as or probably even more toxic than the current Babs one when they last dated, but for some reason people act like that wasn't the case? I guess other media really overwrites what people remember of their in comic romance, but it was really bad at times. Plus I already dislike how tied down Dick is to the Titans as a franchise. I wish Dick was allowed to move on to other teams in the comics instead of constantly being dragged back to the Titans mess all the time, but that is a separate issue.
> 
> Although more than anything I just don't think Starfire is a very good character that offers much utility for stories. You can't really tell more grounded stories when Dick is dating an orange alien with fire for hair and superpowers. You are incredibly limited with what you can do and there is a reason you don't see romances like that in comics very often. Just have Starfire date Cyborg or something where they can at least be stuck in the Titans together maybe. I thought Odyssey was setting that up but it never happened, or just have her date Roy again given how "in love" they were according to Lobdell, lol.


I've never seen the relationship as perfect, but it's one I enjoy and I think it would be nice to see it in a new modern light in the comics, but that's just me.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Nothing really, Babs accession to Oracle makes priceless resource to Batman, JL, Titans the BOP. She on many teams.  starfire only last decade had any kind of affiliation with the justice league. Her only progression seem to be from hero to den mother for the next crop of titans.  Has starfire ever made significant relationship with anyone aside from Dick. Briefly with Roy, who is now deceased. But even he has played the field between Cheshire and Donna Troy.


Depends really. I mean the Titans already have tech people. So Oracle really isn't needed. The same with JL they don't need Oracle unless the plot needs her. So it doesn't really need to be said yes Babs is smart but there are people already on a team that can also do the same job

----------


## AmiMizuno

> That is honestly the last thing I'd want. The Starfire romance was just as or probably even more toxic than the current Babs one when they last dated, but for some reason people act like that wasn't the case? I guess other media really overwrites what people remember of their in comic romance, but it was really bad at times. Plus I already dislike how tied down Dick is to the Titans as a franchise. I wish Dick was allowed to move on to other teams in the comics instead of constantly being dragged back to the Titans mess all the time, but that is a separate issue.
> 
> Although more than anything I just don't think Starfire is a very good character that offers much utility for stories. You can't really tell more grounded stories when Dick is dating an orange alien with fire for hair and superpowers. You are incredibly limited with what you can do and there is a reason you don't see romances like that in comics very often. Just have Starfire date Cyborg or something where they can at least be stuck in the Titans together maybe. I thought Odyssey was setting that up but it never happened, or just have her date Roy again given how "in love" they were according to Lobdell, lol.


That's not true if you can have Steve in many good stories date Diana you can have Dick dating Kori. That's a poor excuse. A good writer can make almost anything work. I mean we have big barb and Mister miracle. So it's not like Kori is off the Table. Also we have the issue of Babs just having DIck being more closer to the Batfam. We shouldn't have Dick be close all the time. With the Titans well that's what made him Nightwing. Plus JL already has Batman so they aren't going to have Dick be on JL. I mean he is more tied now to the Batfam than everything. They have taken Dick out of the Titans many times but never out of the Batfam.Starfire has had good development but things got worst when the wedding arc happened. That's the moment her character started taking a fall. If the JL can make Batman work with fighting with an alien. Than there is no reason Kori and Dick can be a couple. We also have the fact that allowed more Space Stories and a few others. Almost any good writer can make the weirdest things work. Even when they can make this.

Also her hair isn't fire. It's just regular hair. It can look like fire but that's more of energy coming from her. It's never been fire.I guess it's more of her appearance? That's not the first weird character appearance. The fact we have seen their romance can work in other media. It's not impossible. The other point to say that Both Babs and Kori really can work if you give the right writer. The whole there aren't much stories is a lie has there are comics that make the most silly things work. Babs is isolated and Dc doesn't know what to do or rather they hate her. If anything a actually love interest is needed it. We just need someone who isn't a batfam or a Titan. Someone else. Maybe being back Shawn? I'm just tired of keeping it in the family or Starfire. I know I defended her. But I love broth girls but also hate them in a sense of maybe it’s time to move on from both. Clearly Dc wants Dick to have a messy love life. So it’s best for him to be single.

----------


## WonderNight

I,ve been saying for a while that nightwing needs to become something different. Something not bat or titan, not babs or kori. But something new and different.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean in a way he has to be a paradox. For he is all of these things and not at the same times. We can’t ignore that the titans are his second home. He is willing to help his family and friends. There has to be a way to keep them while also showing he doesn’t always need to be great with the Babs or Titans. This so why I kind of want him to be single no more will they won’t they no
More Kori or babs just ignore any new girlfriend. While I want Babs or Kori. Or a new love interest. I think right now maybe Dick should be single for a bit. Maybe for now here is what we have him due. Maybe have him be a private detective using his Nightwing skills to travel the global. He did use Harley Circus has a cover to stop uncovered superhero crime ring. Why not that. We can still have from time to time his friends and family meeting but not often. We have him on his own for a while

----------


## Avi

DickBabs just exhausts me at this point in time. The last time they were written well was in the Convergence mini by Simone. And Seeley did a decent job, I guess. 

DickKory has gathered a lot of goodwill mostly through other media but their few interactions in the Starfire solo and now JL have been far more satisfying to me than what they decided to do with Dick and Babs in recent times, which makes it into less of a trainwreck to me.

That being said I think the relationships work better when they are platonic. Or DC could finally make a real triangle out of them, ya know?

I too don't want any love interest for a while. All they do is take away from the story. If there even is a story. But before Seeley booted that possibility out in one of his Issues, I thought Helena and Dick would have made a good couple. Not as end goal but as a "the one who got away" type. And yes I am totally biased. Nightwing/Huntress is the first comic book I read.

If there is a solo after FS I hope the writer decides to bring some supporting cast back instead of reinventing the wheel. Who ever mandated that Rebirth had to bring Blüdhaven back never understood that Blüdhaven only lives through its characters. It's not like Gotham. Blüdhaven has no unique landmarks.

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## WonderNight

Im not saying titans and batman shouldn't be second homes for dick, im saying they shouldn't be his first. Let the nightwing solo go a few years of world building without any batman or titans. Let Dick's solo stand own his own alot more or hell as crowded as the batfamily is just send im to another franchise. Dick's all about change right.

----------


## Badou

> I've never seen the relationship as perfect, but it's one I enjoy and I think it would be nice to see it in a new modern light in the comics, but that's just me.


Maybe you can blame the era the stories were written in, but the relationship was really toxic. Approaching that X-Men Jean/Scott levels of toxic, haha. I know everyone points to that whole marriage story, but it was rough. Starfire marrying and sleeping with the other guy and Dick going into fits of intense rage and deep depression. Then other times where Dick gets super angry at her and is written like an asshole, and then in other situation where Dick was kind of raped by someone pretending to be Starfire and the real Starfire gets super angry at Dick for it. It was a lot. I get that hyper drama was more in style back then, but it really left a bad impression on me. Overall though I'm just over romances in general or if I had to pick then I'd prefer something new from the ground up with an already established hero.




> That's not true if you can have Steve in many good stories date Diana you can have Dick dating Kori. That's a poor excuse. A good writer can make almost anything work. I mean we have big barb and Mister miracle. So it's not like Kori is off the Table. Also we have the issue of Babs just having DIck being more closer to the Batfam. We shouldn't have Dick be close all the time. With the Titans well that's what made him Nightwing. Plus JL already has Batman so they aren't going to have Dick be on JL. I mean he is more tied now to the Batfam than everything. They have taken Dick out of the Titans many times but never out of the Batfam.Starfire has had good development but things got worst when the wedding arc happened. That's the moment her character started taking a fall. If the JL can make Batman work with fighting with an alien. Than there is no reason Kori and Dick can be a couple. We also have the fact that allowed more Space Stories and a few others. Almost any good writer can make the weirdest things work. Even when they can make this.


The difference between Diana/Steve and Dick/Starfire is that Diana looks like a normal human. So she can blend into normal human society. Same with Clark and Lois. It allows them to be written into more normal situations. With Starfire she is an alien and looks like an alien so you can't really treat it the same. You rarely see romances between normal humans and super powered aliens that look non-human in stories from Marvel or DC now. I can barely think of any, and most of the ones I can are generally not set on Earth. I think it is because they are very difficult and limiting to write. With Barda and Mister Miracle they are both aliens/New Gods, so there is no real issue with them together.

I think Starfire works best flying around in space, but I don't really have any interest in reading stories about Dick in space. With how DC uses Nightwing it makes no sense for him to be in space. Then in more grounded stories that Dick works better in I don't think Starfire is really suited for them. So there is this big conflict with them together and makes a relationship difficult to write in my opinion. Then if you asked me to choose between the Batman or Titans franchises for Dick to be more apart of then I'm always pick the Batman one because of how low of an opinion I have of the Titans in the comics. I don't think Dick's generation of Titans has been written well in a Titans book since the 80s, so I don't have much desire to see him more dependent on them. But that is just how I feel about the franchise. I get that others feel it isn't a complete disaster. 




> Also her hair isn't fire. It's just regular hair. It can look like fire but that's more of energy coming from her. It's never been fire.I guess it's more of her appearance? That's not the first weird character appearance. The fact we have seen their romance can work in other media. It's not impossible. The other point to say that Both Babs and Kori really can work if you give the right writer. The whole there aren't much stories is a lie has there are comics that make the most silly things work. Babs is isolated and Dc doesn't know what to do or rather they hate her. If anything a actually love interest is needed it. We just need someone who isn't a batfam or a Titan. Someone else. Maybe being back Shawn? I'm just tired of keeping it in the family or Starfire. I know I defended her. But I love broth girls but also hate them in a sense of maybe its time to move on from both. Clearly Dc wants Dick to have a messy love life. So its best for him to be single.


I guess it just depends on the artist. Sometimes it is drawn like it is on fire and other times it isn't, but my point is that it is very obviously non-human looking. I personally have no interest in either Babs or Starfire. I have no real interest in any romances for Dick anymore and am fine with him just being on his own.

Now if you ask me about what I want from a romance then I'd want something fresh with an already established hero. No more original characters, civilians, or past relationships revisited. There is too much baggage with Babs and Starfire to start fresh with them which is another reason I am not interested in revisiting them. I really enjoy the early parts of a romance in a story with the two getting to know each other, romantic tension, flirting, and the early dating process. You can't really have that with Babs or Starfire with all their history. I really enjoyed the slow development with Helena in the Grayson series. Something like that is more what I'd want. With her and Dick getting to know each other for the first time since the reboot and slowly growing closer over the course of the series. It just sucks that the series had a rushed ending with the writers leaving early where all that nice development was lost.

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## AmiMizuno

I see your point. While I do like Babs and Kori. I do think we should have another love interest for a while. Just not right now. Let Dick be single for a while. So you think Helena is a good choice? I think one of the reasons people don't want that is she is technically Helena Wayne his sisters. I mean yes and no since she is from another earth. Also aren’t there like a few ways Helena doesn’t even have to be a Wayne. I know they did it a few times

Yea Statfire’s hair isn’t fair just an artist choice when she uses her powers to make it look that way. But I get it she looks too not human. All I’m using a good writer can make anything work. But I do think maybe we should just have him be single. If people want Babs or Dick maybe elsewhere comic series is for the best.

----------


## Ascended

> I like Dick and Babs but it's become too much of a constant will they/won't they thing with no development and no real satisfying reason for them to just not be together, so I'm fine with giving that a break. 
> 
> Giving some love to DickxKori comics-wise would just feel refreshing.


Anything that gets Dick out of that Gotham style street level mold would be refreshing at this point. And I don't disagree; it's been a long time since Dick and Kori were in a relationship and it'd be nice to see a modern spin on that. I will never *not* support that idea, if the choice is between Kori and Babs....or Huntress, Tarantula, or any of the forgettable women who have dated Dick Grayson for a few issues.

But I think what would be even *more* refreshing is a legitimate effort to develop and explore new love interests for all three characters, something more than just some original, throwaway character that'll never last beyond the writer's time on the comic. Y'all know how I am about Power Girl and Nightwing, but in all seriousness a concerted, *real* effort to move everyone's love life forward, instead of recycling stories we've been reading for decades, would be something *truly* novel and refreshing.

----------


## Frontier

> Maybe you can blame the era the stories were written in, but the relationship was really toxic. Approaching that X-Men Jean/Scott levels of toxic, haha. I know everyone points to that whole marriage story, but it was rough. Starfire marrying and sleeping with the other guy and Dick going into fits of intense rage and deep depression. Then other times where Dick gets super angry at her and is written like an asshole, and then in other situation where Dick was kind of raped by someone pretending to be Starfire and the real Starfire gets super angry at Dick for it. It was a lot. I get that hyper drama was more in style back then, but it really left a bad impression on me. Overall though I'm just over romances in general or if I had to pick then I'd prefer something new from the ground up with an already established hero.


Again, not denying the relationship had problems and overwrought emotional drama as it went along, but I still really got invested in it. Ditto Dick and Babs. 

(Of course, I also like Scott and Jean together, so...)



> I think Starfire works best flying around in space, but I don't really have any interest in reading stories about Dick in space. With how DC uses Nightwing it makes no sense for him to be in space. Then in more grounded stories that Dick works better in I don't think Starfire is really suited for them. So there is this big conflict with them together and makes a relationship difficult to write in my opinion. Then if you asked me to choose between the Batman or Titans franchises for Dick to be more apart of then I'm always pick the Batman one because of how low of an opinion I have of the Titans in the comics. I don't think Dick's generation of Titans has been written well in a Titans book since the 80s, so I don't have much desire to see him more dependent on them. But that is just how I feel about the franchise. I get that others feel it isn't a complete disaster.


Starfire is never going to be stuck in space, though. She's a cosmic character but she's generally depicted as being on Earth where the action happens.

Personally I want Dick to be part of both the Batman and Titans franchises. 



> Now if you ask me about what I want from a romance then I'd want something fresh with an already established hero. No more original characters, civilians, or past relationships revisited. There is too much baggage with Babs and Starfire to start fresh with them which is another reason I am not interested in revisiting them. I really enjoy the early parts of a romance in a story with the two getting to know each other, romantic tension, flirting, and the early dating process. You can't really have that with Babs or Starfire with all their history. I really enjoyed the slow development with Helena in the Grayson series. Something like that is more what I'd want. With her and Dick getting to know each other for the first time since the reboot and slowly growing closer over the course of the series. It just sucks that the series had a rushed ending with the writers leaving early where all that nice development was lost.


I just miss the old Helena. 



> Anything that gets Dick out of that Gotham style street level mold would be refreshing at this point. And I don't disagree; it's been a long time since Dick and Kori were in a relationship and it'd be nice to see a modern spin on that. I will never *not* support that idea, if the choice is between Kori and Babs....or Huntress, Tarantula, or any of the forgettable women who have dated Dick Grayson for a few issues.
> 
> But I think what would be even *more* refreshing is a legitimate effort to develop and explore new love interests for all three characters, something more than just some original, throwaway character that'll never last beyond the writer's time on the comic. Y'all know how I am about Power Girl and Nightwing, but in all seriousness a concerted, *real* effort to move everyone's love life forward, instead of recycling stories we've been reading for decades, would be something *truly* novel and refreshing.


I don't mind Dick in Gotham, but that's beside the point  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

I think the problem is that writers have tried to invest in original love interests for all three of them and it just hasn't worked in the long-term. Babs has now had a slew of forgettable boyfriends and Kori had...Roy and that police officer's brother from her solo book? I don't think the writers weren't trying to do a genuine romantic development, it just didn't make any sizeable impact (as has been the case with most of Dick's love interests that aren't Babs, Kori, or even Helena).

----------


## AmiMizuno

If Starfire would be a love interest it's not hard for her  to always be in his comics. Like she is modeling so she isn't going to help him fight crime and a titan. There is also the question outside who would Starfire be friends with outside of Dick and Titan's? She also has to have her own life. With them giving her own cast that's just has important

----------


## Ascended

> I think the problem is that writers have tried to invest in original love interests for all three of them and it just hasn't worked in the long-term. Babs has now had a slew of forgettable boyfriends and Kori had...Roy and that police officer's brother from her solo book? I don't think the writers weren't trying to do a genuine romantic development, it just didn't make any sizeable impact (as has been the case with most of Dick's love interests that aren't Babs, Kori, or even Helena).


I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly. 

If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.

It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor. 

Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).

----------


## Frontier

> I think one of the big issues is that the writers have tried to invest in new love interests but have rushed things too quickly, likely knowing that they wouldn't be on the book for long and editorial wouldn't enforce the next writer to follow through. Like, consider Shawn; it didn't take too damn long for them to go from "nice to meet you" to "I'd lose my mind if something happened to you!" There was no organic, natural build up and that left the whole thing feeling artificial and fake. No wonder fans didn't give a damn about her or her relationship with Dick. And this applies to pretty much every love interest introduced for any of the three characters; if the new love interest isn't just boring and bland to begin with, they don't get the time for the relationship to unfold properly. 
> 
> If a new love interest is going to stick, then we need not only writers who will continue to build it up after the first guy leaves, we need editors who will enforce that consistency, and the love interest him/herself has to be compelling and interesting in their own right, and not just arm candy who exist solely for the protagonist's dramaz.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I've pushed for Power Girl so much. She's established as a character; we know who she is and what drives her as a individual, yet she isn't such a big deal she'd overshadow Dick. We know Karen Starr is Dick's type of girl, and she has history to draw from that can add to and enrich Nightwing's story, rather than just filling in as a requisite element of the genre. I've said all the same things about Kyle Rayner as a potential love interest for Kori; we know who Kyle is and can see how he and Kori could fit together and he exists as more than just a damsel for Kori to save. He's a character we're familiar and comfortable with, and not a new unknown factor. 
> 
> Quality, as always, is the true problem here. DC has half assed their efforts regarding the love interests of these characters, but for a love interest to actually stick it requires real effort, time, and investment. And as we know, effort, time, and investment are the three things DC *isn't* willing to do with Nightwing, Starfire, and Babs (to a lesser extent).


I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn. 

I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.

Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## WonderNight

The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing. 

But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.

If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?

----------


## Rac7d*

> The reason why power girl would feel "out of place" is because nightwing has to conform to batman. If nightwing was a more independent hero than characters like power girl or starfire would have no problems fitting in with nightwing. 
> 
> But hey people seem to love there batfam and nightwing as just another bat lieutenant. But if you what dick as just another street level batman support character that's fine like what you like. But just don't complain when we get more will they won't they with babs, more batman villains in his solo, more disconnect from the dcu and his story being blown up for the Bruce's story, because that what comes with it.
> 
> If dick was meant to stay under batman then he should've just stayed robin. What is the point of nightwing.


Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.

----------


## WonderNight

> Powergirl would feel out of place Becuase she from another earth, and any story with the two of them is an elseworld.


Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dickbabs logic lol. If that's the case then how did dick and kori work in the first place? Or Clark and lois. Where she form doesn't matter what matters is where she's at currently.


Kori and dick exist on the same earth? Power girl is just not here.  The whole super family gets together regularly powergirl is never their

----------


## WonderNight

> I agree. I think he should be used less in certain things. If we had to use Nightwing in Batfam books. What should be the rules?


Simple! The same way other heros whi visits gotham. He's visiting so that means to you don't effect his solo (looking at you tom king). I let his solo about his story, his world etc. Just like all of the other A-listers. We already saw something like this with grayson, dick was able to visit gotham and the batfamily but still was able to have his own world and corner in the dcu with spyral.

Grayson felt like dick had his on life outside batman and in the dcu. Like he would visit the fam but moved out and on with his life. Grayson was dick moving out, nightwing is dick living in the basement.

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think it's just a DC problem. I can't say Marvel has been much better about it (looking at all the non-MJ forgettable Peter Parker love interests that came about around BND). It's just hard to get people invested in new character as serious love interests for major characters. And I liked Shawn. 
> 
> I think Power Girl would feel out of place unless they were in a team book together.
> 
> Kyle and Kori would just remind me of Kyle and Donna .


No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.

I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to. 

And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with. 

And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.

----------


## Frontier

> No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.
> 
> I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to. 
> 
> And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with. 
> 
> And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.


Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo but it would really be down to the execution.

----------


## WonderNight

I got some ideas  :Embarrassment: .

I believe nightwing should be global, the only real reason why nightwing has a city is because batman has a city. But nightwing shouldn't be batman (batman lite hurts nightwing).

So how about nightwing being the global detective!  Something like instead of  blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.

Nightwing could do this solo or with spyral or as his JL solo/team up missions.

VegasHaven would be dicks home base for rest, down time and resources and gear. Dick would globetrotte for missions and crime fighting. He could even have halys circus or spyral back for his globetrotting.

Nightwing: agent of spyral or JL. Globetrotting around the world to take on a international kin pin, a global court of the owls, a global organization of villains.

----------


## WonderNight

> No it's not just a DC problem, it's a Big 2 problem. At this point, if you're not core Justice League or a MCU Avenger, you don't get much love. And a lot of the core League and MCU Avengers don't get much love in the comics either, just more than the rest.
> 
> I liked Shawn well enough, but that doesn't change the fact the relationship went from 0 to 60 in three issues and never felt like a cohesive, natural progression. No wonder fans generally didn't get behind it, we weren't given any reason to. 
> 
> And Power Girl and Kyle are just examples here. They're my preference for new love interests but the point I was making is that a new love interest, whoever it is, needs a slow burn buildup to get fans invested and the new L.I. would benefit greatly from being a established character people are familiar with. 
> 
> And no, PG doesn't really "fit" the Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented version of Nightwing DC has given us in recent years. But Dick is more than just a Bat-lite, Gotham-oriented hero and has a deep history beyond Bruce Wayne and strong connections to the more fantastical side of the DCU going as far back as his team-up adventures with Clark in the Silver Age (maybe late-ish Golden Age?) and his time in the Titans editorial. Karen doesn't "fit" solely because DC has ignored a big part of who Dick is. And that's an easy problem to solve.


Yep dick has been so bat centric that the nightwing mantle came form superman and titans but love interest from superman and titans "don't fit" lol.

----------


## Ascended

> Again, I think the relationship would probably need them to be in a team book together to work rather than happening in Dick's solo. I guess you could go for a more fantastical Nightwing solo *but it would really be down to the execution.*


Isn't everything?  :Smile:  

For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run. In a Nightwing comic where he's taking down global metahuman organ traffickers, vying for a chance to sit on the Mobius Chair, and dealing with evil multiverse versions of himself, a love interest like Power Girl, Starfire, Jade, Jess Cruz, or whoever the hell, makes perfect sense.

----------


## Claude

> Something like instead of  blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.
> .


... That's actually very good. Enough "wow, it's like the 90s again!" to carry those fans over, but instantly a different vibe and scale. Good thought! 

One thing that comes up from time to time is Dick travelling as part of Haly's Circus, as in the start of Higgins' run. I have to say, as far as suspension of disbelief goes, "Nightwing only shows up in places that one circus goes, and only since that one guy started touring with them" is a tough one to swallow!




> For a more fantastical Nightwing concept I tend to point to Grayson and Percy's motorcycle death race arc, as well as some elements of Seeley's Rebirth run.


Ah, sometimes I wonder where we'd be by now if we'd had two years of Percy rather than the Ric storyline. He'll never be my favourite writer, but he had legitimate big plans, was gearing up to make big changes, and was doing a decent job of the "maybe Nightwing starts streetlevel but he'll scale up" comic book storytelling that Dick doesn't often get. Felt like it was cut off just as it was about to show its potential.

----------


## WonderNight

Oh I get that, It why I like spyral. The way to go about it is people don't know nightwings in town. The only people that knows nightwing town are the bad guys he just beat up, and they dont know halys in town. Or dick just travel on his own. Or rejoins spyral with helena or artemis crock or bette ashis partner.

----------


## Ascended

> Ah, sometimes I wonder where we'd be by now if we'd had two years of Percy rather than the Ric storyline. He'll never be my favourite writer, but he had legitimate big plans, was gearing up to make big changes, and was doing a decent job of the "maybe Nightwing starts streetlevel but he'll scale up" comic book storytelling that Dick doesn't often get. Felt like it was cut off just as it was about to show its potential.


I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.

That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade.

----------


## Frontier

> I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.
> 
> That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade.


I think his Dick was less of a technophobe and more just not overly reliant on tech.

----------


## Avi

> I often wonder the same. Percy's not my favorite writer by any stretch, and I disliked how he turned Dick into a technophobe, but he definitely had a vision for "Nightwing" and not just "Batman's sidekick" and I think overall, whatever Percy was planning to do would've been a positive gain for the character even if I took issue with some of the details.
> 
> *That said his death race arc was by far the best thing he did on the title, and I'd even go so far as to say they're some of the best issues Nightwing has had in the past decade*.


Imo they were some of the best Nightwing Issues in the past decade. They encompass a lot of what I want to see in a Nightwing book. Globetrotting, new characters (Silencer), old characters (Flamingo), Dick on a bike  :Stick Out Tongue: , and the tech-magic mixture was great too. Percy definitely had plans to re-establish Dick as a well connected hero and back then his plans sounded a lot like the things Seeley wanted to do.

----------


## WonderNight

It's amazing how much more fun and interesting nightwing becomes when he has the entire dcu as his sandbox and isolated in a bland empty city.

As far as the fantastic themes just write the nightwing alot as a titans solo than a bat solo. Problem solved.

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #77 Preview

https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...s-nightwing-77

----------


## AmiMizuno

> It's amazing how much more fun and interesting nightwing becomes when he has the entire dcu as his sandbox and isolated in a bland empty city.
> 
> As far as the fantastic themes just write the nightwing alot as a titans solo than a bat solo. Problem solved.


Sadly not if Bateditors don't want that. The only way is if he and the titans get their own editors and make a deal that Dick can be used limited in Batbooks. Other then that Nightwing should be on his own.




> I got some ideas .
> 
> I believe nightwing should be global, the only real reason why nightwing has a city is because batman has a city. But nightwing shouldn't be batman (batman lite hurts nightwing).
> 
> So how about nightwing being the global detective!  Something like instead of  blockbuster being the king pin of bludhaven he's a international king pin? And nightwing's out to shut him down.
> 
> Nightwing could do this solo or with spyral or as his JL solo/team up missions.
> 
> VegasHaven would be dicks home base for rest, down time and resources and gear. Dick would globetrotte for missions and crime fighting. He could even have halys circus or spyral back for his globetrotting.
> ...



Agreed. To be honest that's why he could simply could get a job has a P.I or like you said using Haley's Circus to fight around the world. We do know the Court of Owls have Harley's Circus. So it would be nice if he takes them now. Yea I love Bludhaven would be more experiment city and move it out of the state like Gotham.

----------


## Digifiend

> Depends really. I mean the Titans already have tech people. So Oracle really isn't needed. The same with JL they don't need Oracle unless the plot needs her. So it doesn't really need to be said yes Babs is smart but there are people already on a team that can also do the same job


Yeah, Babs is not a Titan, never has been. Only reason she showed up in the 1999 Titans series is because she was Dick's girlfriend.



> Oh I get that, It why I like spyral. The way to go about it is people don't know nightwings in town. The only people that knows nightwing town are the bad guys he just beat up, and they dont know halys in town. Or dick just travel on his own. Or rejoins spyral with helena or artemis crock or bette ashis partner.


You mention Artemis because of the Young Justice cartoon, I assume? In the comics, she's a villain.

----------


## Avi

> Nightwing #77 Preview
> 
> https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...s-nightwing-77


Looks good but that was to be expected. I'm positivly surprised to see Bruce, but I won't pick it up except if the kindred spirit is one of the characters I have been missing in a Nightwing comic.

----------


## Godlike13

> Nightwing #77 Preview
> 
> https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...s-nightwing-77


Jurgen's Dick is such a pill. Now even Christmas is a battle. The dude is just a bummer. They finally give it up and bring back Dick, and all he has him do is bitch about it. It really was just so stupid leaving this guy on the book. I don't know if he's bitter about Ric's reception or what, but i really don't understand what he's trying to accomplish by making Dick the one buzzkill to his own return.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Yea. Dick is not Bruce. To have him be like this is dumb. 

One question is Dark Metal in the main universe or different ?

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think his Dick was less of a technophobe and more just not overly reliant on tech.


He’s not a technophobe he just not as inclined as Babs and Tim. That team up with Superman and he admitted that he could not reverse engineer something the way Bruce could was nice way of showing us how he differs from the rest of the bat family.

----------


## WonderNight

> He’s not a technophobe he just not as inclined as Babs and Tim. That team up with Superman and he admitted that he could not reverse engineer something the way Bruce could was nice way of showing us how he differs from the rest of the bat family.


He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.

----------


## Frontier

> He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.


Or he's just not into digital  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Claude

> He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.


See, I think that's perfectly valid - Percy overdid it, because he's not a subtle writer, but I think it's perfectly valid to say "Dick grew up in a circus, circuses aren't really a thing any more, so he's probably quite a Retro Person". It also does give him a bit of a USP among the Bat Family - in that people like Bruce and Tim are techy forward planners, whereas Dick is an improviser who does most of his crime fighting with two sticks.

He shouldn't be _ignorant_ of technology, but disinterested and not having it as part of his Civilian Life? That seems plausible.

----------


## WonderNight

> See, I think that's perfectly valid - Percy overdid it, because he's not a subtle writer, but I think it's perfectly valid to say "Dick grew up in a circus, circuses aren't really a thing any more, so he's probably quite a Retro Person". It also does give him a bit of a USP among the Bat Family - in that people like Bruce and Tim are techy forward planners, whereas Dick is an improviser who does most of his crime fighting with two sticks.
> 
> He shouldn't be _ignorant_ of technology, but disinterested and not having it as part of his Civilian Life? That seems plausible.


But that was not his character before that run. Not to mention he was rased by a billionaire.

----------


## Rac7d*

> He was in that run. He didn't even have a cellphone and his apartment had a record player in his 20s lol. Dick was push as someone who doesn't like tech.


Having a record player doesn’t make you low tech, it’s just retro. Him not having a cell phone I don’t even belive, his Nightwing mask is tech and he has family who may need him, he’ll even if it’s just a clam

----------


## Ascended

> He shouldn't be _ignorant_ of technology, but disinterested and not having it as part of his Civilian Life? That seems plausible.


I'd be fine with that, and can totally see Dick as being relatively ambivalent about technology, but Percy overdid it to an extreme, even by Percy standards.

Having a record player because you're retro is one thing. Not having a cell phone is quite another.

Not to mention it's quite out of character for him. Dick's never been uber tech savvy like Tim or Babs, but he still *uses* it.

I mean, it's just one aspect of what Percy was doing and I still think we'd have been infinitely better off if DC hadn't crashed Percy's run, but I think Percy really misunderstood this element of Grayson.

----------


## Godlike13

I think he understood it, but his objective was if everybody is wearing red maybe wear blue. And i respect that idea. From Tim to Steph everyone is now a technowiz. Thing is technology being a characteristic in this day and age is just weak in general, being good at it or bad. Its an essential in this day in age. Its like a toilet. Imagine if a character was introduced and his "thing" was that he was good at using a toilet, its like cool who isn't, but then you have another who doesn't want to use a toilet. And with that you just roll your eyes.

----------


## AmiMizuno

He was raised by Bruce and trained being Robin and he is shown in many runs being okay with tech. Not on the levels like Babs or Tim but can at least Hack or make tech. So he can have a cellphone.

----------


## WonderNight

> He was raised by Bruce and trained being Robin and he is shown in many runs being okay with tech. Not on the levels like Babs or Tim but can at least Hack or make tech. So he can have a cellphone.


 Also spend years on the same team and friends with freaking CYBORG! Being Anti-tech dick ain't the one.

----------


## Badou

It makes Dick look incompetent not to have a deeper understanding and background in technology nowadays. Percy having Dick be borderline anti-technology was bizarre, and even in Higgins Chicago arc he had Dick not know what computer programing language was. Things like that just don't work in 2020 when everyone is walking around with a computer in their pocket. Sure, Dick grew up in a circus, but he was also trained by Batman for years and years. Dick should have a fairly deep understanding of tech and computers just based off Batman's training. He should understand how to use technology, hack computers, diagnose issues with technology, and use tech to enhance his detective and crimefighting work. Something along the lines of him on the Young Justice show is a good example of how tech and tech knowledge should be used for his character, imo. I'd even want Dick to have a belt on his costume where it allows him more access to gadgets and things for more unique fights and problem solving.

Now it shouldn't be dialed up to 11 like you see with so many characters where it feels like fantasy. It needs to be believable. So things like Tim being able to build a super computer better than the Bat computer or turn his house into a giant shapeshifting computer are too much. Same with a Roy in his spare time building nuclear bombs because he is a super genius apparently now, or Babs creating her own sentient AI from a computer. Stuff like that is too much. It's fine if you want characters like Babs, Tim, and others to be a lot better with tech, which I am fine with and he should go to them if there is an issue over his head, but it doesn't mean Dick shouldn't know what computer programing is and be decent at using tech himself.



Anyway, I do a lot of bitching about what I dislike so my pitch for what to do with his solo book (if he even has one anymore) would go like this. I'd bring Spyral back. Right now Spyral is kind of dead so you have the chance to rebuild it in a way Dick wants while being in charge of it. So I'd have Dick create a new Spyral team where he can operate it as Nightwing. So you already eliminate the major issues some fans had with Spyral. That Dick was working for "bad" people while being a spy and he wasn't Nightwing in it. Here Dick is working for himself and is Nightwing. 

I'd have Dick recruit Tiger first and the two then start to build back up a new Spyral team. This team's main focus would be monitoring other DCU organizations and spy agencies. I'd move the team to Gotham or NYC because those are two cities where there are actually a lot of resources and characters to use. Bludhaven will always be a waste of time no matter how you dress it up. It's a waste of time because there is nothing in it that people care about and has no real value. So spending more time trying to "fix" it leads to nothing. Then I'd just have Nightwing and Tiger operate out of a small base/apartment for now and have them recruit an odd collection of characters and other heroes. Maybe have them recruit other members from other organizations. Not sure, but there is a lot of value in these oddball teams like a Guardians of the Galaxy, Suicide Squad, and Doom Patrol. Maybe recruit one member from each niche like magic, aliens, and tech. You can get real creative with it.

Dick can have his own team that operates a bit like the X-Force or Outsiders but more focused on spy and weird parts of the hero business. Basically a covert team that as Nightwing he can mold the way he wants. I think there is real value there. Spyral has the chance to be his and his alone which is really important for the character going forward and can add real value beyond just the comics if done well. He isn't splitting leadership of the Titans with Robin, and obviously he will never be allowed on the JL, but this can be his own team built around him.




> I see your point. While I do like Babs and Kori. I do think we should have another love interest for a while. Just not right now. Let Dick be single for a while. So you think Helena is a good choice? I think one of the reasons people don't want that is she is technically Helena Wayne his sisters. I mean yes and no since she is from another earth. Also arent there like a few ways Helena doesnt even have to be a Wayne. I know they did it a few times
> 
> Yea Statfires hair isnt fair just an artist choice when she uses her powers to make it look that way. But I get it she looks too not human. All Im using a good writer can make anything work. But I do think maybe we should just have him be single. If people want Babs or Dick maybe elsewhere comic series is for the best.


Helena doesn't work anymore. She got ruined with Seeley's Nghtwing book. He had the two sleep together during the awful Shawn drama when they were broken up. Then Helena got angry and kicked Dick in the balls or something and that was the last time Dick and Helena interacted I believe. Had that never happened then maybe I'd be interested in exploring the two again, but now it doesn't work. And I think Helena Bertinelli has differentiated herself enough by now to never be confused with Helena Wayne. So I don't think there is any issue there.




> Starfire is never going to be stuck in space, though. She's a cosmic character but she's generally depicted as being on Earth where the action happens.


She just spent the last few years in space. She should be on a space JL team, but DC doesn't really do cosmic stories well. DC only really does Green Lantern stories for the cosmic ones and she isn't a GL so she doesn't really fit into what they want. Even that JL Odyssey book eventually just started to revolve around the GL Jessica Cruz. If DC was more like Marvel and had a bigger variety of cosmic outlets then she would fit in much better in that setting I think.




> Personally I want Dick to be part of both the Batman and Titans franchises. 
> 
> I just miss the old Helena.


If you could only pick one for Dick to be involved with in the comics going forward would you pick the Titans or the Batman franchise? I'd always pick Batman.

I'd be fine with them having Helena be white again and had her vigilante history back, but I don't think DC is ever going to do that. If they were going to change her back then they would have done it for the BoP movie where Helena in that looked a lot more like her pre-New 52 self.

----------


## WonderNight

I don't think batman would even allow robin in the field unless he got good with tech.

----------


## WonderNight

Badou I agree 100% man, Nightwing: agent of spyral is the way to go for nightwing. It gives him both direction and a niche.

Nightwing would be the face of DC's espionage world just like wonder woman is for fantasy, superman for syfi and batman is for street vigilante. 

Nightwing globetrotting around the dcu on covert missions solo and with his own supporting cast. Awesome!

Take the best elements from grayson and bring them in to nightwing. Nightwing working to keep the other spy organizations out of the hero community's business. Take on the thing that go on behind the scenes like global meta human and weapons trafficking.

Badou what you just described was basically YJ Nightwing and the Team! But instead of working for the JL and being made up of sidekicks it nightwing's own spyral organization and other agents/heroes.

Basically just bring Grayson into nightwing copy YJ Nightwing. Nightwing = Nick fury meets captain America love it.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why does he have to work with an organization? Why not him make him own team? Another section of Titans ? I guess I’m thinking they just have him get rid of the Nightwing suit and everything Titans also.


The only other thing is to think what should Dick built on his own. I mean Dc is once again just wanting him not to shine. I feel they are trying to ruin him over and over. In many ways with Vic and Babs. They could have increased him talent

----------


## Frontier

> Helena doesn't work anymore. She got ruined with Seeley's Nghtwing book. He had the two sleep together during the awful Shawn drama when they were broken up. Then Helena got angry and kicked Dick in the balls or something and that was the last time Dick and Helena interacted I believe. Had that never happened then maybe I'd be interested in exploring the two again, but now it doesn't work. And I think Helena Bertinelli has differentiated herself enough by now to never be confused with Helena Wayne. So I don't think there is any issue there.


I don't think Helena's ruined although I would like to see that not get brought up again. 



> She just spent the last few years in space. She should be on a space JL team, but DC doesn't really do cosmic stories well. DC only really does Green Lantern stories for the cosmic ones and she isn't a GL so she doesn't really fit into what they want. Even that JL Odyssey book eventually just started to revolve around the GL Jessica Cruz. If DC was more like Marvel and had a bigger variety of cosmic outlets then she would fit in much better in that setting I think.


She has as much chance of staying in space as Cyborg did. Her whole thing is being a space princess who finds a home on Earth. 



> If you could only pick one for Dick to be involved with in the comics going forward would you pick the Titans or the Batman franchise? I'd always pick Batman.
> 
> I'd be fine with them having Helena be white again and had her vigilante history back, but I don't think DC is ever going to do that. If they were going to change her back then they would have done it for the BoP movie where Helena in that looked a lot more like her pre-New 52 self.


I'd choose both  :Smile: .

Maybe they could just take out Spyral and try to emphasize more of the Post-Crisis traits, but I doubt race-bending her back would be met well.

----------


## AmiMizuno

This is true but even in the original comics she has returned home and other planets. So it should be used of her going to space. Especially with helping Planets who are enslaved

----------


## Robanker

> I'm ready for a DickFire resurgence .





> I'm definitely not against the idea, between Kori and Babs I've always been team Kori. Babs and Dick are just....bad for each other, their relationship usually makes him end up looking irresponsible and/or immature and her looking like a control freak with commitment issues.



Always knew you two had good taste.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Anything that gets Dick out of that Gotham style street level mold would be refreshing at this point. And I don't disagree; it's been a long time since Dick and Kori were in a relationship and it'd be nice to see a modern spin on that. I will never *not* support that idea, if the choice is between Kori and Babs....or Huntress, Tarantula, or any of the forgettable women who have dated Dick Grayson for a few issues.
> 
> But I think what would be even *more* refreshing is a legitimate effort to develop and explore new love interests for all three characters, something more than just some original, throwaway character that'll never last beyond the writer's time on the comic. Y'all know how I am about Power Girl and Nightwing, but in all seriousness a concerted, *real* effort to move everyone's love life forward, instead of recycling stories we've been reading for decades, would be something *truly* novel and refreshing.


I like Babs too despite my slight preference for DickFire, and you know I'm your brother in PowerWing, but I just want Dick's love life to take a two year rest. Just twenty four issues. Rebuild him as more than DC's Helen of Troy. Please.

----------


## Arsenal

After the whole Ric thing, Duck probably shouldn’t be doing the whole relationship thing for a good while anyway.

----------


## WonderNight

So do you guys think nightwing should join the jsa? I don't see pg joining the titans and that will focus on the younger new heroes. So nightwing won't have a team book that he is a main focus of.

----------


## Digifiend

No. There's plenty of Infinity Inc and other legacy characters (Stargirl, Jakeem Thunder), the Justice Society can use.

----------


## Restingvoice

His solo book sells well on a good day, so he doesn't need to be on another team, just let a trail of kids follow him.

----------


## Badou

> Badou I agree 100% man, Nightwing: agent of spyral is the way to go for nightwing. It gives him both direction and a niche.
> 
> Nightwing would be the face of DC's espionage world just like wonder woman is for fantasy, superman for syfi and batman is for street vigilante. 
> 
> Nightwing globetrotting around the dcu on covert missions solo and with his own supporting cast. Awesome!
> 
> Take the best elements from grayson and bring them in to nightwing. Nightwing working to keep the other spy organizations out of the hero community's business. Take on the thing that go on behind the scenes like global meta human and weapons trafficking.
> 
> Badou what you just described was basically YJ Nightwing and the Team! But instead of working for the JL and being made up of sidekicks it nightwing's own spyral organization and other agents/heroes.
> ...


It's the path that allows him the most room for unique stories and character growth, as well as building something that might appeal to other media adaptation. Him running around Bludhaven will never lead to anything unique nor be something that writers are drawn to write. No writer out there is chomping at the bits to sink their teeth into Bludhaven, but the whole spy or covert side of the DCU is completely open for him, especially after Bendis destroyed every single organization out there with his awful Leviathan story, but at least that allows some creator to build Spyral back up where Nightwing can lead and operate it the way he wants. The Young Justice show already did this kind of like you said, but I don't think this will ever happen. So far DC has shown no desire to do anything interesting with Nightwing's character.




> Why does he have to work with an organization? Why not him make him own team?


That is what we are saying. That he would be leading Spyral and form his own team and operate it how he sees fit. 




> I don't think Helena's ruined although I would like to see that not get brought up again.


I meant ruined in terms of being a romantic option for Dick not that her character is ruined. I don't have any desire to see their relationship explored again after how horribly it ended in Seely's Nightwing run. I don't really see how you can go back to it after what happened.




> She has as much chance of staying in space as Cyborg did. Her whole thing is being a space princess who finds a home on Earth.


I wouldn't say that. She is an alien and has far deeper ties to cosmic stories than Cyborg does. I just think her character works better in space instead of being stuck on awful Titans teams on Earth.




> I'd choose both .


I knew you wouldn't pick one when I asked that, lol. 




> So do you guys think nightwing should join the jsa? I don't see pg joining the titans and that will focus on the younger new heroes. So nightwing won't have a team book that he is a main focus of.


I'd rather see him in the JSA than Titans. He's a Golden Age character and has been a member before, so not like he wouldn't fit in. I had a pitch years ago where I'd like his solo book to be about him joining the JSA. It would follow his journey on the team. A problem I have with the Titans is that Dick is always written the same way in it. He defaults to the boring and generic leader trope and his personality gets stripped from him. There is zero room for growth for him which is why writers always undercut his character on those Titans team and try to pass it off as "deveopment". On the JSA he wouldn't be the leader and would have to work his way up and develop new dynamics with its members. I think that would be interesting to read but it won't ever happen. He is handcuffed to the Titans unfortunately.

----------


## Frontier

> I wouldn't say that. She is an alien and has far deeper ties to cosmic stories than Cyborg does. I just think her character works better in space instead of being stuck on awful Titans teams on Earth.


I think she's more tied to the Titans while the cosmic stuff just informs her character, so that's why the main impetus is her fitting into both worlds, like Dick is both a Bat and a Titan.

----------


## Robanker

> So do you guys think nightwing should join the jsa? I don't see pg joining the titans and that will focus on the younger new heroes. So nightwing won't have a team book that he is a main focus of.


Been saying for a while now he's a good fit in the JSA.

----------


## Frontier

Well, he was fairly prominent in Earth-2...

----------


## Vordan

Agent Nightwing would honestly be perfect. That’s a whole area of the DCU Dick could call his own, something the other Batfamily members couldn’t poach.

----------


## Ascended

> I like Babs too despite my slight preference for DickFire, and you know I'm your brother in PowerWing, but I just want Dick's love life to take a two year rest. Just twenty four issues. Rebuild him as more than DC's Helen of Troy. Please.


Oh, totally agreed. As much as we talk about Dick's love life, that should be pretty low on the priority list right now. The character needs a lot of TLC to recover from the last few years (going back to before Ric even started) and needs to be re-defined and re-contextualized, and of all the things that need some work the love interest is near the bottom of that list. But it's what we're talking about, so....  :Big Grin: 




> So do you guys think nightwing should join the jsa? I don't see pg joining the titans and that will focus on the younger new heroes. So nightwing won't have a team book that he is a main focus of.


I'd support it. Honestly, anything that isn't the League or Titans sounds good to me right now, but Dick in the JSA could be a pretty fantastic thing. I can't really think of a reason *not* to put him on the team.

Not that I want the JSA to be his primary home, I still want him to have his own book where he does his own thing and has his own unique niche in the DCU. But as far as teams go, JSA is pretty high on my wish list.

----------


## Hypo

Tom Taylor possible teasing Nightwing?

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...44697241407490

----------


## AmiMizuno

I don’t think Babs and Dick relationship will carry over. Dc keeps saying their doing this to make things less confusing but to be honest. They are the ones to blame they are also just saying Dan’s idea. So what is going to happen now? We going to need a reboot of a reboot? 

I mean let’s be honest Starfire can just make a Titan team in space. I don’t know what Dc play is to have him break up then have be married to Babs. Hopefully it’s not cannon so he can just be single for a bit

----------


## Hypo

https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...71056734978051

----------


## Avi

> In Taylor and Redondo's Nightwing run, Blüdhaven has elected a new mayor with the last name Zucco, which can’t be good for DC’s first sidekick and former Robin—but is it good for Blüdhaven? When Nightwing enlists Batgirl’s help in investigating the politician bearing the same name as the man who murdered his parents, she unearths details that will shock and fundamentally change the hero.


Le sigh.




> And appearing in the first issue of Taylor and Redondo’s new Nightwing comic is a potential new sidekick for Dick Grayson—a three-legged puppy that he shields from harm in Blüdhaven’s alleys!


I'm ok with that.




> I’ve always considered a DC A-lister. Our series is about showing that. It’s about putting Dick Grayson back on that pedestal where he belongs.”


And this sounds good too.

Taylor wouldn't have been my first choice but he could do good stuff. Dick needs action and Taylor can do that. Redondo drawing Nightwing doesn't hurt.

----------


## Drako

> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...71056734978051


Hell yes!




> I don’t think Babs and Dick relationship will carry over. Dc keeps saying their doing this to make things less confusing but to be honest. They are the ones to blame they are also just saying Dan’s idea. So what is going to happen now? We going to need a reboot of a reboot? 
> 
> I mean let’s be honest Starfire can just make a Titan team in space. I don’t know what Dc play is to have him break up then have be married to Babs. Hopefully it’s not cannon so he can just be single for a bit


It will carry over.

https://www.gamesradar.com/nightwing...bruno-redondo/

----------


## WallyWestFlash

> https://twitter.com/thedcnation/stat...71056734978051


Yes!!! Actually excited about this. 

Taylor is more hit or miss with me but one thing he is not is boring. Which is what Nighteing has been for awhile. 

This may be a disaster but at least itll be entertaining. But I think Taylor will do well on this.

Also happy that Barbara is there too. I always liked them together. I guess this will be her spot in lieu of her solo. 

It's better with them together anyways instead of some other girl that we know will not work out for Dick anyways.

I like the art for the poster also.

----------


## Drako

> So excited for this, people. Despite killing him... twice... in DCeased and Injustice, I've always been a huge Nightwing fan. Can't wait to tell these epic stories of Nightwing and Batgirl, with my good friend, 
> @Bruno_Redondo_F.


https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...77487672524801

----------


## Vordan

Yeah please don’t have Dick hit his head on a rock and die would you Tom? Alright, while I plan on giving this a shot, Taylor isn’t usually to my taste. But he’s very popular with the casual audience so he will most likely write a popular Nightwing, which is good. Dick needs something that will connect with the general audience again.

----------


## Godlike13

Had a feeling they weren't relaunching. Watch out for rocks, lol. Solid creative team, better then expected honestly, but i have a feeling this is going to be like when Humphries took over. As in this is the new creative team for a story arc. But ill still take it. Really is a shame though they wasted the return and left Jurgens for as long as they did. The numbers on the book probably aren't going to recover. Whatever bump his series might have got from his return was wasted by 3 more month of Jurgens, and now this team has to pretty much start from the bottom. Which sucks cause this checks a lot of boxes. Relevant writer who's making a name for himself, cool looking art, and new pet lol. Love the dog already btw. That being said, Babs, Bludhaven, and Zucco. I know some aren't gonna be happy with those things.

----------


## Drako

> Had a feeling they weren't relaunching. Watch out for rocks, lol. Solid creative team, better then expected honestly, but i have a feeling this is going to be like when Humphries took over. This is the new creative team for a story arc. But ill still take it. Really is a shame though they wasted the return and left Jurgens for as long as they did. The number on the book aren't going to recover. Whatever bump his series might have got from his return was wasted by 3 more month of Jurgens, and now this team has to pretty much start from the bottom.


He is staying long term.




> Yes. We're on the ongoing Nightwing series starting with issue #78. Not just an arc, I'm planning on writing Nightwing for a long time. 
> So great to join @Ben_Abernathy  and so many of my friends in the Bat Group. We've all been scheming...

----------


## Hannibal

Make nightwing great again!

----------


## Rac7d*

2021 is looking up!!!

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah please dont have Dick hit his head on a rock and die would you Tom? Alright, while I plan on giving this a shot, Taylor isnt usually to my taste. But hes very popular with the casual audience so he will most likely write a popular Nightwing, which is good. Dick needs something that will connect with the general audience again.


Yeah, i agreed, there is just something about him that doesn't conect with me, but hey it might be popular enought to give Nightwing a boost.

----------


## Godlike13

> He is staying long term.


Ok, very cool. Im excited. I almost forgot what this felt like when it comes to Nightwing.

----------


## Badou

Never would have guessed Taylor would write Nightwing. I figured he could have had his pick of higher profile titles, but I guess it's the least DC could do after a couple years of terrible Ric stories. His title has been a disaster for a while and maybe this is a strong enough team to stabilize it? No idea but I guess we will see. The fact that the book isn't getting relaunched does make me think Taylor won't be on the title for too long despite what he says. Guess we will see. 

But it's depressing they are setting it in Bludhaven again. It's expected of course, but it just means that nothing from this run will last because Bludhaven is a creative wasteland. It's a setting I've explained countless times now why it doesn't work but people will still defend it. I'll never understand their devotion to it. In the pitch for this series you can even see why it doesn't work. Dick's connection to Bludhaven is so paper thin they have to drag out a Zucco character to give Dick some deeper motivation to be in Bludhaven. It's them dragging more things from Gotham to try and fill out Bludhaven because it has nothing useable in it. They even have to drag Batgirl from Gotham there because after 25 years there is nothing there of any real value. The only way Bludhaven becomes an asset is if Allen Moore comes back to DC and wants to write about it, haha. Outside that it is what it is at this point and trying to pass it off as Dick's "home" or his own Gotham will always come across as forced.

Okay, Bludhaven rant over. Not sure what to make of the Batgirl thing. So are they going to start dating now, continue to be "married", or are they just going to continue what they have been doing for the past 9 years with their awful will they/won't they dynamic? Where somehow the timing is ALWAYS bad and they continue to bitch about it despite having no real reason not to be together? I used to like Dick and Babs together but the past 9 years killed any motivation I have to see it. My gut tells me that they will just be dating at most because it is still set in Bludhaven and Barbara isn't going to leave Gotham. Really, this pitch could have just been set in Gotham and it would probably have been better for it, but I guess they can use Bludhaven as an excuse to put a wedge in their relationship, lol.

Also it looks like the Hawkeye influence is still going strong in the comics. How long ago was that run now? 7 years? Crazy how influential that series was, and I guess still is, but this new dog does feel very influenced by Pizza Dog with being disabled and paired up with the hero with comedic undertones.

----------


## Vordan

Is Babs going to be Oracle here, like she is in Tynion’s Batman I wonder?

----------


## Drako

> Is Babs going to be Oracle here, like she is in Tynion’s Batman I wonder?


They're calling her Batgirl in the interview, but who knows.

----------


## Mr. White

Enjoyed Taylor's writing from the stuff I've read so this is great news. Plus Suicide Squad was great - art included.

Not sure about the use of a Zucco (i.e. I'd prefer something "new" and not tied to history) but Snyder managed to make it work in The Black Mirror so let's see.

To be fair, over half the people on this Forum could have been introduced as the new writer and it'll still be welcome following the Ric debacle.

----------


## Drako

> Ok, very cool. Im excited. I almost forgot what this felt like when it comes to Nightwing.


I can see that, you ever change your avatar. Let the positivity flow through this appreciation thread, it's needed.

----------


## Frontier

Taylor should be a good fit for Nightwing, even given the fact that he's killed him in dumb ways a few times  :Smile: . 



> They're calling her Batgirl in the interview, but who knows.


I assume this will be the book that showcases her as Batgirl while other books use her as Oracle. 

I'm curious if they're together as lovers or just as crime-fighting partners. Seems they're assuming they're together romantically.

----------


## Digifiend

> He is staying long term.


Up to issue 100, perhaps? That would be 23 issues, which is just under two years on a monthly schedule.

----------


## cc008

Wow! Really cool news. Love the creative team. This is exciting. Taylor writing Nightwing in the main reality could be something really special.

----------


## Drako

So, in 2021, we have:

Future State Nightwing,
Future State Titans (To be determined if is him or not),
Nightwing with Tom Taylor,
Titans Academy,
Season 3 of Titans,
Major Player in Gotham Knights.

Also, Two of his villains, Talon and Shrike, are part of the Suicide Squad.

I know some of you don't like the Titans series or the premise of the Titans book, but 2021 is looking good for him.

----------


## BloodOps

This is fantastic news. 

Count me in.

Can't believe its been so long since I've been excited for Nightwing.

----------


## Vordan

> So, in 2021, we have:
> 
> Future State Nightwing,
> Future State Titans (To be determined if is him or not),
> Nightwing with Tom Taylor,
> Titans Academy,
> Season 3 of Titans,
> Major Player in Gotham Knights.
> 
> ...


Yeah the turn around has been pretty strong. Also S4 of Young Justice.

----------


## Claude

I would honestly have pegged Taylor as too big for Nightwing at this point - and that's some very pretty art. I'd say this is as good a team, in terms of profile, as could have been expected -the plot itself doesn't sound at all interesting (Bludhaven, Zucco, Batgirl), but we'll see how it ends up in execution.

Plus, although I'm not really a fan of pairing as such, "Dick and Barbara are together, they're a team, and it's working" is infinitely better than the slightly testy will-they-won-t-they they've been for a long, long time....


Also, did we all see this?

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1339601287969587205

That looks like q quite acceptable Titans team, but also doesn't have any of the Academy kids involved. So either Teen Titans Academy is going to be a little different than some were expecting, or there's going to be another book too?

----------


## AmiMizuno

I’m happy that Babs and Dick will be together and what his idea. I do wonder if this will last. I just wanted Dick to be single for a bit.

----------


## Drako

> Yeah the turn around has been pretty strong. Also S4 of Young Justice.


Yeah, i forgot YJ. Also, we may get the Snyder Black Label book too.

----------


## Frontier

> I would honestly have pegged Taylor as too big for Nightwing at this point - and that's some very pretty art. I'd say this is as good a team, in terms of profile, as could have been expected -the plot itself doesn't sound at all interesting (Bludhaven, Zucco, Batgirl), but we'll see how it ends up in execution.
> 
> Plus, although I'm not really a fan of pairing as such, "Dick and Barbara are together, they're a team, and it's working" is infinitely better than the slightly testy will-they-won-t-they they've been for a long, long time....
> 
> 
> Also, did we all see this?
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1339601287969587205
> 
> That looks like q quite acceptable Titans team, but also doesn't have any of the Academy kids involved. So either Teen Titans Academy is going to be a little different than some were expecting, or there's going to be another book too?


Yeah, but are they just crime-fighting partners or are they also lovers? That's what I want explicit confirmation on.

----------


## Drako

Nightwing: Injustice Creative Team Charts a New Direction for Dick Grayson in 2021

https://www.ign.com/articles/nightwi...uad-batgirl-dc




> Taylor also confirmed the Batgirl in question is Barbara Gordon. Barbara is going through changes of her own in the aftermath of Joker War, and the series will feature her both as Batgirl and Oracle.
> 
> "I’ve always loved their relationship," said Taylor. "There aren’t many characters who know each other so well. They’ve been through so much together, respect each other, and have always been there to support one another. They’re not Batman and Robin. There’s no side-kick here. They’re equals in every way and Babs will be a big part of our story, as Batgirl and as Oracle. Bruno and I have told some huge stories with giant casts between Injustice, Star Wars and Suicide Squad, and we’re very excited to focus on a smaller cast and imbue this book with as much heart and hope as we can."

----------


## Vordan

I forgot Taylor actually worked in a circus as a juggler and fire eater. Feeling way more hopeful that this will finally be the Taylor comic I click with.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, but are they just crime-fighting partners or are they also lovers? That's what I want explicit confirmation on.


Did you read the interview?

----------


## Frontier

> Nightwing: Injustice Creative Team Charts a New Direction for Dick Grayson in 2021
> 
> https://www.ign.com/articles/nightwi...uad-batgirl-dc


Looks like he'll be handling Babs well at least  :Smile: . 

Come to think of it, I can only remember him writing her in Injustice where she actually survived. 



> I forgot Taylor actually worked in a circus as a juggler and fire eater. Feeling way more hopeful that this will finally be the Taylor comic I click with.


That's so random, but fitting  :Stick Out Tongue: . 



> Did you read the interview?


Yeah, but it doesn't specify if they're dating.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Taylor also confirmed the Batgirl in question is Barbara Gordon. Barbara is going through changes of her own in the aftermath of Joker War, and the series will feature her both as Batgirl and Oracle.


So,no new direction at all then. Meh, at least is not Jurgens and Taylor can't kill Dick with a rock this time around....hopefully.

----------


## Avi

> Yeah, i forgot YJ. Also, we may get the Snyder Black Label book too.


Would be great if it were announced in 2021 too.




> Nightwing: Injustice Creative Team Charts a New Direction for Dick Grayson in 2021
> 
> https://www.ign.com/articles/nightwi...uad-batgirl-dc


Hmmm... While I'm looking forward to the shift in direction the ideas that are being presented right now aren't anything new (except for the mutt) and not even recent. His run will very much depend on how he portrays DickBabs and what he does to make Blüdhaven feel unique.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm okay with Zucco, Barbara, and Bludhaven because I hold a relaunch should start with something familiar before branching out or subvert things, kinda like the same feeling I get when The Court of Owls Batman started with Batman in Gotham fighting Arkham inmates, or Tynion's Bat-family team up including Tim, Cass, and Steph.

I also... since I'm new and I haven't read Zucco except for the origin, kinda glad if they continue what Higgins was setting up and canceled.

Also, Taylor's too big for Nightwing thing is the old guard's pov. They just had their way for too long. Dick Grayson _is_ big. NTT was big, Dick's canceled wedding with Kori was going to be big, DickBats was big, big name writers wanted to write him, big-name writers did write him, they've just always been told no, and now no one's stopping them.  

Taylor writing Nightwing and Snyder-Tynion-Williamson writing Titans one shot, I hope the glass ceiling is broken, at least for the time being.

----------


## Drako

The boy is even treding.




> Thanks for the huge response to our Nightwing announcement. Nightwing is currently trending in the US. 
> Ping: @drinkpinkink.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The boy is even treding.


Yes the world is showing him love

----------


## Restingvoice

and not for his butt this time... no... wait... I think he got Trending when he debuted in Titans too...

----------


## Avi

Dick might not be trending because of his butt for once, but thanks to Nicola Scott his bum has hijacked @museumbums on Twitter.

It's great to see so much hype surrounding the new creative team. I wonder how much more it would have been, had they gone with a #1 or legacy numbering.

----------


## qwazer07

Hold up! Nightwing is treated an A-Lister. DC has changed. They DIDN'T renew his series. The series continuous to #78. They are not relying on Issue #1 hype. Now, that's confidence.

Dick Grayson having a big part in Batman and Titans books while still having his own solo. Hype train!

----------


## Frontier

> The boy is even treding.


Off-topic, but I'm happy to see Sir Ian vaccinated.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Happy Nightwing is trending

----------


## Badou

It just sucks the pitch sounds so fucking generic. I feel like every writer comes on and says the same thing. Saying they are going to make Dick "A-List" but then nothing happens and the character gets dragged into whatever awful Batman event is going on constantly. It's an interesting creative team, but man, the pitch so far and that IGN interview just don't leave me inspired at all. Focusing again on Bludhaven will fail like always, and so far it doesn't seem like they will do any globetrotting. Just more Daredevil or Spider-man lite stuff.

----------


## Claude

> It just sucks the pitch sounds so fucking generic. I feel like every writer comes on and says the same thing. Saying they are going to make Dick "A-List" but then nothing happens and the character gets dragged into whatever awful Batman event is going on constantly. It's an interesting creative team, but man, the pitch so far and that IGN interview just don't leave me inspired at all. Focusing again on Bludhaven will fail like always, and so far it doesn't seem like they will do any globetrotting. *Just more Daredevil or Spider-man lite stuff.*


Although when Taylor did Spider-Man, it was a story about an ancient orange-skinned civilization that existed under New York and was ruled by a tyrant. I'm not sure his instincts necessarily go to "street level", even if he is wrapping himself in the trappings of Chuck Dixon for launch.

----------


## Ascended

Hot damn.

So, I just gotta #humblebrag for a second here (apologies and bear with me). I've been saying for years that Dick Grayson is a criminally undervalued IP at DC (which we've all said) and I've listed a bunch of business-y reasons to support this (which isn't as common). And the last few months, I've been saying that DC would be crazy stupid foolish to continue ignoring him, given their shift in goals and increased efforts at market synergy. And I said back in August that it'd probably take a little while before we heard anything definitive about Dick's future in the new DC regime and it'd take 6-12 months for their plans (whatever they were) to reach the shelf.

Today, we found out what DC is gonna do and for once they seem to agree with me and my analysis. It seems a rare thing, I'm usually mind-boggled at their choices from both a creative and business perspective. 

But today it feels *so good* to be right.  :Big Grin:  See? This is what we get when DC thinks the same way I do; high value, quality creative teams on characters who will benefit from them!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Taylor seems like a good choice and a higher profile creator than DC has allowed to be on Nightwing in the past. Whether his run is amazing or not, just the fact that he's on the book is a positive sign that DC is taking Nightwing more seriously. I haven't read a ton of his work but I've liked what I've seen and feel like he should be a good fit. I mean, I expected better than Jurgens and Lobdell but I didn't expect the guy who wrote two of DC's most successful Elseworlds in Injustice and DCeased.  

I could do with a change of scenery and leave Bludhaven behind (at least for a little bit) and Babs being around makes me nervous that the Death Metal marriage might stick. But our guy is trending and has one of DC's better writers, and the guy is sticking around for more than six issues??? Not to mention a bevy of appearances in other books, video games, and shows this year?????

Ladies and gentlemen, we *may* have finally reached the light at the end of the tunnel!

----------


## Badou

> Although when Taylor did Spider-Man, it was a story about an ancient orange-skinned civilization that existed under New York and was ruled by a tyrant. I'm not sure his instincts necessarily go to "street level", even if he is wrapping himself in the trappings of Chuck Dixon for launch.


The pitch sounds so uninspired that I'm expecting Blockbuster or the Owls to show up next, haha. 

I do think this is an interesting creative team and that cover is absolutely amazing, maybe one of the best Nightwing covers ever, and I love that they got rid of the Batman inspired logo, but it just sucks that so far everything they've said about their run saps any interest I have in the title. I guess at least when Bludhaven fails again I can add more creators to my list who wasted their time trying to write stories in it, lol.

----------


## Frontier

> Hot damn.
> 
> So, I just gotta #humblebrag for a second here (apologies and bear with me). I've been saying for years that Dick Grayson is a criminally undervalued IP at DC (which we've all said) and I've listed a bunch of business-y reasons to support this (which isn't as common). And the last few months, I've been saying that DC would be crazy stupid foolish to continue ignoring him, given their shift in goals and increased efforts at market synergy. And I said back in August that it'd probably take a little while before we heard anything definitive about Dick's future in the new DC regime and it'd take 6-12 months for their plans (whatever they were) to reach the shelf.
> 
> Today, we found out what DC is gonna do and for once they seem to agree with me and my analysis. It seems a rare thing, I'm usually mind-boggled at their choices from both a creative and business perspective. 
> 
> But today it feels *so good* to be right.  See? This is what we get when DC thinks the same way I do; high value, quality creative teams on characters who will benefit from them! 
> 
> Taylor seems like a good choice and a higher profile creator than DC has allowed to be on Nightwing in the past. Whether his run is amazing or not, just the fact that he's on the book is a positive sign that DC is taking Nightwing more seriously. I haven't read a ton of his work but I've liked what I've seen and feel like he should be a good fit. I mean, I expected better than Jurgens and Lobdell but I didn't expect the guy who wrote two of DC's most successful Elseworlds in Injustice and DCeased.  
> ...


The only way the marriage sticks around is if it's as "symbolic" as Bruce and Selina's marriage or they immediately went to file a proper marriage license, but I doubt that's happening.

----------


## qwazer07

I am slowly loving DC again. We got DC's new golden boy writing Nightwing. I expected that he will write Superman, Black Canary, Red Hood, etc. Those fanbases have been shouting for it a long time. Nightwing deserves his own city with Grayson series writing quality. It's great we have Taylor while in his prime like when we had King before his fall in Batman Rebirth.

----------


## Pohzee

Man, high school me would be so pumped. I really wanted him on Nightwing for a while after reading Injustice: Year One (despite his demise there lol.) Still pretty cool. The most I've been excited for an oncoming Nightwing writer since the start of Rebirth.

----------


## Robanker

> Hot damn.
> 
> So, I just gotta #humblebrag for a second here (apologies and bear with me). I've been saying for years that Dick Grayson is a criminally undervalued IP at DC (which we've all said) and I've listed a bunch of business-y reasons to support this (which isn't as common). And the last few months, I've been saying that DC would be crazy stupid foolish to continue ignoring him, given their shift in goals and increased efforts at market synergy. And I said back in August that it'd probably take a little while before we heard anything definitive about Dick's future in the new DC regime and it'd take 6-12 months for their plans (whatever they were) to reach the shelf.
> 
> Today, we found out what DC is gonna do and for once they seem to agree with me and my analysis. It seems a rare thing, I'm usually mind-boggled at their choices from both a creative and business perspective. 
> 
> But today it feels *so good* to be right.  See? This is what we get when DC thinks the same way I do; high value, quality creative teams on characters who will benefit from them! 
> 
> Taylor seems like a good choice and a higher profile creator than DC has allowed to be on Nightwing in the past. Whether his run is amazing or not, just the fact that he's on the book is a positive sign that DC is taking Nightwing more seriously. I haven't read a ton of his work but I've liked what I've seen and feel like he should be a good fit. I mean, I expected better than Jurgens and Lobdell but I didn't expect the guy who wrote two of DC's most successful Elseworlds in Injustice and DCeased.  
> ...


Been with you in saying he's A-List getting sandbagged, and I'm glad they're putting more push behind Nightwing... But I'm cautious with Taylor. I hope to be wrong with him, and Redondo's art is a visual treat. I'm hopeful. I just dread when Taylor finds a way to shoehorn Harley Quinn into the book.

I'm fine with the Barbara relationship being front and center if it's not the focus, but just ignore the fake marriage. Please. I don't even want them married and that feels like a cop-out. 

I think Bludhaven, stupid name notwithstanding, can work. It's a holdover from the Dixon run, but that's hist best run so why mess with what worked? I just want Taylor to make it work and build on it. Bring in team-ups. Do something fun, build it into a city that reflects Dick instead of "Gotham's port neighbor that also sucks worse somehow but not in any meaningful wa-- OH MY GOD IS THAT CHEMO WITH THE STEEL CHAIR?!"

But Taylor is a big name based on Injustice and DCeased, so while I dislike those books, this shows DC isn't just treating Dick as a holding pattern at 30-40k readers. That's an investment. That's good news.

That's a top 10 Nightwing cover for sure. I need that thing now.

----------


## DragonPiece

Maybe the year of Ric grayson was worth it for this creative team, feels like gold was struck here. Especially excited about Batgirl having a big role.

----------


## Ascended

> Been with you in saying he's A-List getting sandbagged, and I'm glad they're putting more push behind Nightwing...


Right? Vindication!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> But I'm cautious with Taylor.


I'm not that familiar with his work, honestly. I read like, two random issues of Injustice Year One and that's about it. But it's not Taylor that thrills me so much as it's the fact that DC put one of their bigger talents on the book. I have liked what little I've seen from Taylor but mostly I'm just happy that DC didn't get bargain bin basement creators.

And I'm fine with Harley showing up. Taylor writes a damn fine Harley, if those random Injustice issues I read are any indication, and I've long thought the two of them would have a interesting dynamic; there's a lot of common experience between them, if you turn your head and squint. 




> I think Bludhaven, stupid name notwithstanding, can work.


Bludhaven was never the problem, and still isn't. The lack of consistency the entire Nightwing IP has been plagued with is the problem. Now, I'd rather see Dick travel the world (and beyond) instead of working out of a single city. But Bludhaven, for better or worse, *is* Dick's town and I'm perfectly willing to give Taylor a chance to make it really shine. 

Hell, right now I figure we fans should be pretty upbeat and happy about this. Maybe Taylor isn't the writer some of us wanted, maybe what we're hearing about the direction isn't what we'd do if we were writing ourselves, but DC has put one of their major talents on the book, seemingly for a long run, and that has been sorely needed. It doesn't make up for all the abuse over the years, DC is gonna have to do more than this if they want to earn the fandom's forgiveness. But I'll be damned if this isn't a really good first step. This looks like genuine investment, and I applaud it.

I'm more than happy to welcome Taylor to the book. I hope he does well and sticks around for a long damn time. Let's be honest, the last time Dick got talent this high profile was when Dixon launched the solo twenty+ years ago. 

And if nothing else Taylor is giving us an adorable little three legged puppy, and nobody should ever be upset over getting a dog.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Robanker

> Right? Vindication! 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not that familiar with his work, honestly. I read like, two random issues of Injustice Year One and that's about it. But it's not Taylor that thrills me so much as it's the fact that DC put one of their bigger talents on the book. I have liked what little I've seen from Taylor but mostly I'm just happy that DC didn't get bargain bin basement creators.
> 
> And I'm fine with Harley showing up. Taylor writes a damn fine Harley, if those random Injustice issues I read are any indication, and I've long thought the two of them would have a interesting dynamic; there's a lot of common experience between them, if you turn your head and squint. 
> 
> 
> ...


More dogs are always welcome! Hey, I've been shooting for a Brave and the Bold volume with Nightwing as the anchor so you don't have to convince me of a globetrotting team-up Nightwing book.

My problem with Taylor is that he uses his alternate universes as a crutch. Big stuff gets to happen so you ignore he is terrible at voices for a lot of characters. Who cares if Diana sounds weird, TIM DRAKE JUST DIED?! You know what I mean? It gives progression at the expense of, well, characterization. Keep in mind he had Diana simp for Superman in one book and get one-shot by him in another (where Clark himself forgot how to use his other abilities to take out Flash because we needed him off the board). Where Aquaman can get killed by a simple arrow. Where Lex freely admits Batman was smarter than him. I can go on.

He also shills Harley a lot and I just can't stand that character these days, but that's my bias. Harls got to kill everyone with the Joker and have her absolution too, only without the redemption. Still haven't let that go. Not sure I ever will because every time I see her listed as a victim as some sort of scapegoat for her bloodshed, I think "well what do you call all the people she helped kill then?!" She _could_ be redeemed, but she needs to be walked through the mud like Hal was and like Wally is now. And yet, she was just decoupled from the Joker and stayed away long enough that the Bat family work with her now? Give me a break. She killed people, and I don't just mean that retconned story where she blew up children. I don't really see her and Nightwing ever working together outside of corporate greed trumping story, which of course happens and will continue to. She simped the guy who crippled Barbara Gordon as a prop to get at Jim Gordon. She helped him do it to other people. Dick would never be her friend, even if he was able to forgive her after she sufficiently redeemed herself. And that's not him being an asshole for not letting it go. Nobody is required to entirely absolve others of transgressions done to them in the past. If someone runs over someone you care about, you never actually have to be their friend just because they made amends to society. You can forgive them if you have that level of empathy, but even then, not required. She helped the guy who did it to Barbara. Helped him escape justice time and again. I do think Dick is empathetic enough to one day forgive Harley, knowing she was a victim herself, but it would take time. Even then, I can't abide them being friends or having a good relationship.

I want to be wrong on Taylor. A lot of people love his work and he seems like a swell dude, but his work hasn't impressed me thus far aside from small bits and pieces that get posted on Reddit.

That said, I acknowledge the guy is a top talent in the industry and it's great Nightwing has been given that high profile a team.

Finally, tragically, it seems the good ship PowerWing remains at port for a while longer.

----------


## Badou

> Bludhaven was never the problem, and still isn't.


HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless. The entire concept of Bludhaven in and of itself is critically flawed. At its core it doesn't work as a setting for Dick because Bludhaven doesn't present any actual value on its own and Dick's ties to the city are completely superficial. You'd have to rewrite Dick's entire history to make it work.

I said the same things before Seeley's return to the city when nearly everyone was saying that this time Bludhaven will work. Fast forward 4 years later and I was right. When Taylor's run is over and Bludhaven is still worthless maybe a few more people will come to my side, lol.

----------


## Ascended

> More dogs are always welcome!


Now we need the DC/Marvel crossover; "3 Legged Puppy vs. Pizza Dog! Which maimed mutt will end up in the muzzle!?!?!" 




> My problem with Taylor is that he uses his alternate universes as a crutch. Big stuff gets to happen so you ignore he is terrible at voices for a lot of characters.


And that's something I haven't really seen. I thought he did well with Ollie and Harley in that one Injustice issue I read but I'm in unknown waters here. 

Hopefully this won't be a problem in a main canon title where "Elseworld!" isn't a viable excuse. With Injustice he was dealing with NetherRealms' versions of the characters, so....maybe that was part of it? Or maybe he's just one of those writers who bends characters to fit the plot, I really don't know. 

Don't blame you for the Harley bias. I love the character and don't have the problems a lot of posters here do, but I get where you're coming from. DC really pushes her in places where they shouldn't, and her working with the Bats is f*cking idiotic. And no, I don't think she and Dick would get along very well, but it'd be damn fun to watch.




> Finally, tragically, it seems the good ship PowerWing remains at port for a while longer.


That ship isn't leaving the dock until one of us takes over the book. But as the captain of the USS PowerWing I give my permission to any DC employee reading this post to use the couple, free of charge.  :Stick Out Tongue:  




> HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless.


I know. We've talked about the city before and this is something we're just not gonna see eye to eye on. You say the house is built on a foundation of mud, but I say it's fiction and it's only mud if you allow it to be. I get what you're saying but I think it's a false corollary.

----------


## RedQueen

Going back to his roots, I don't have much of a problem with. The energy Tom Taylor talks about putting into the story is what appeals to me.

And he knows how to write a decent relationship, so I think if he is reviving Dickbabs then I trust he's gonna get them out of this will they/wont they horribly written limbo. At least he'll commit to something.

----------


## Rac7d*

> HARD disagreement there. When you are trying to build a house in the mud it doesn't matter how you do it because the structure is going to fall apart regardless. The entire concept of Bludhaven in and of itself is critically flawed. At its core it doesn't work as a setting for Dick because Bludhaven doesn't present any actual value on its own and Dick's ties to the city are completely superficial. You'd have to rewrite Dick's entire history to make it work.
> 
> I said the same things before Seeley's return to the city when nearly everyone was saying that this time Bludhaven will work. Fast forward 4 years later and I was right. When Taylor's run is over and Bludhaven is still worthless maybe a few more people will come to my side, lol.


Bludhaven worth is something that come up here tri annually at least and I think I have been here a few years now. Yes it will never be Gotham and it will never be Metropolis bus so what. I don’t know what green arrow or flash city is and I don’t care. It’s his turf and his home under his watch. He orange have to share it with 24 other heroes like Spider-Man does NYC or even daredevil in Hell’s Kitchen. Bludhaven was one of his strongest runs location. Hell at even rebirth while a bit slow still engaging. Consistency is good. 

He can still have globe trottin space flying Diane soon bending stories with the Titans. All while maintaining his own base just like Batman and Superman.

More importantly we will finally have corporate synergy. People who read Nightwing are gonna see him on tv doing the same on tv and vice versa. Even better this season will feature Barbra as Oracle just as this new storyline will. Taylor could be creating an outline for a potential spin-off for them.

----------


## Badou

> Bludhaven worth is something that come up here tri annually at least and I think I have been here a few years now. Yes it will never be Gotham and it will never be Metropolis bus so what. I dont know what green arrow or flash city is and I dont care. Its his turf and his home under his watch. He orange have to share it with 24 other heroes like Spider-Man does NYC or even daredevil in Hells Kitchen. Bludhaven was one of his strongest runs location. Hell at even rebirth while a bit slow still engaging. Consistency is good. 
> 
> He can still have globe trottin space flying Diane soon bending stories with the Titans. All while maintaining his own base just like Batman and Superman.
> 
> More importantly we will finally have corporate synergy. People who read Nightwing are gonna see him on tv doing the same on tv and vice versa. Even better this season will feature Barbra as Oracle just as this new storyline will. Taylor could be creating an outline for a potential spin-off for them.


The core problem is that Bludhaven will never be Dick's home no matter how hard DC tries to say it is. Gotham and Halys Circus will always take precedence over it. As much as people want to act like Bludhaven is this super important place for his character it really isn't. It's completely hollow. Dick isn't from Bludhaven, he wasn't raised there, none of his family is from there, none of his friends or allies are from there, none of his major love interests are from there, none of his teams or organizations he is part of are there, he has no job tying him there, he didn't created the Robin identity there, and he didn't even create the Nightwing identity there. These are foundational problems with the idea of Bludhaven. How can people act like it is his home and isn't a completely flawed concept when it is missing every single story element that would make it his home? It's ridiculous.

I mean 25 years later and you still have these major problems. Putting a fresh coat of paint on it or making it more like Vegas doesn't address any of these core issues. They have to constantly drag things from Gotham to make it useable because Bludhaven on its own offers nothing. Every single other character that has a solo and is anchored to some city has actual ties to that city. A Flash in Central City, or a Green Arrow in Star City, have actual deep ties and bonds to it, but Dick has none of that in Bludhaven. People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless. 

It's just a poor, watered down attempt to make him into a Batman, Spider-man, or Daredevil-lite character by filling that generic version of what Gotham, Hell's Kitchen, or NYC is supposed to be for their respective heroes, but Dick isn't like those other heroes. The whole "a hero needs a city to protect" is such a dated idea that really limits Dick as a character when other characters already fill that role better than he ever will. He's had a very unique hero journey and to force him into some shallow, generic mold of a city that he has no real ties to just so he can do his best Daredevil impersonation and work some boring normal job stunts his character. I'll never understand why people want that. They should focus on the things that make him unique and enhance those and raise that value up rather than try and keep him stuck in some uninspired box. He was a kid that grew up in a traveling circus, became Robin to work with Batman, created a team full of teenage superheroes, and then became Nightwing. Nothing about his character suggests that he would be at home anchored to some city he has no ties to. It's the complete opposite of what his character suggest he would want.

All it really offers is to be a good holding cell for when DC wants get his character out of the way like with the Ric story. It was easier to just shove him off to Bludhaven where he can be ignored, or use it as an excuse when they want to say he couldn't do something because he had his stupid Bludhaven "responsibilities", but there is also the issue of splitting his character between three locations. Bludhaven, Gotham, and globetrotting. It's not good storytelling to split his character up between three settings like this, as you end up spreading the stories too thin, and between the three of them Bludhaven is the most useless by far. Dick should be a global hero on the move with Gotham being the place he calls home and returns to when he can. It is so much simpler and streamlined while letting his "home" actually be a place he has deep ties and actual affection for. 

Also as for that "corporate synergy" the next season of Titans takes place in Gotham. Not Bludhaven. Also you know what Bludhaven is in the Young Justice show? It is a suburb of Gotham not its own city. So even in other media they get how unnecessary Bludhaven is as an actual city, but the comics can't figure it out.

----------


## Badou

Okay, I think I got all the Bludhaven stuff out of my system for now, lol.

----------


## Restingvoice

Okay so the summary, as I suspected after paying attention for a while when it comes to Bludhaven is basically "I want something better/more for Dick" vs "It's good enough"

----------


## WonderNight

Yeah I agree with badou. Dick should be out and about with the other superheroes in the dcu instead of just another bat.

Fans want nightwing to be an A-lister well A-listers  don't do small scale. Go big or go home.

----------


## Hcmarvel

> People are just blinded by nostalgia for Dixon's run where they think it represents some important element to his character and they try and copy it over and over, but in reality it is worthless.


I don't really have a dog in the fight but I do think it's important to remember that the Dixon run is where a lot of people grew to love Nightwing, especially AS NIGHTWING (as opposed to Robin). It's a very significant part of the character's publishing history.

Also, someone doesn't need to be born in a city to adopt it and call it home.

----------


## Godlike13

Actually Bludhaven exist so that they can try to emulate a formula made popular by the A-listers. I can take it or leave it at this point, it’s a trap, but it’ll come down to whether Taylor falls into it or not.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Not sure about the use of a Zucco (i.e. I'd prefer something "new" and not tied to history) but Snyder managed to make it work in The Black Mirror so let's see.
> 
> To be fair, over half the people on this Forum could have been introduced as the new writer and it'll still be welcome following the Ric debacle.


I co-sign on all.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.

----------


## Claude

> If you want to read Tom Taylor's best work, go for Batman Annual #3 and Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man #14.


Was that Batman Annual the Alfred story? I do remember really liking that.

----------


## Pohzee

That Alfred annual was the issue that made me fine with him dying.

----------


## Badou

> Okay so the summary, as I suspected after paying attention for a while when it comes to Bludhaven is basically "I want something better/more for Dick" vs "It's good enough"


I just fine it incredibly frustrating. It's like watching someone try and fill up a bucket of water with a giant hole in the bottom of the bucket. Sure, if you fill it up fast enough maybe you can get the water to the top, but you wasted so much water in the process doing that. Maybe every once in a while there will be a decent Bludhaven story arc, but you just wasted so much time and effort writing in a setting that doesn't work. I just don't get it.




> I don't really have a dog in the fight but I do think it's important to remember that the Dixon run is where a lot of people grew to love Nightwing, especially AS NIGHTWING (as opposed to Robin). It's a very significant part of the character's publishing history.
> 
> Also, someone doesn't need to be born in a city to adopt it and call it home.


I just think it is a false equivalence to think that because Dixon used Bludhaven in Dick's first solo book that means it is somehow deeply important to his character. I think Dick's best solo stories happened outside of Bludhaven personally. 

And Dick is a fictional character, so "home" for him really doesn't work the same as a real person. A home setting needs to have actual utility and the capabilities to produce interesting stories from that utility. Typically you can classify "home" into two categories, even for a real person too. They are the place you were born and/or raised and also where you friends and family are. Bludhaven doesn't have any of that for Dick. So that doesn't work, and next home can be a place where you build a new life for yourself. That also doesn't work because after 25 years of Bludhaven stories Dick and every writer on his book has failed to build anything in Bludhaven that you would classify as a "life". So I don't see how it can be his home when it is missing any actual story elements that would make it work as a home for him. I think it is an extremely flawed concept for all those reasons I mentioned at the top of my previous long post. Bludhaven is missing all those crucial elements a hero needs to form an actual bond with their city. Without them it will always comes off as hollow.

----------


## Drako

Final and Variant Covers. No more batsymbol behind his logo.

----------


## dropkickjake

"Oh wait theres good news?"

Don't know tom taylor from adam, but if he's "one of the most exciting talents at DC," I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. 

I will say, he is apparently choosing to use a lot of things that make me a bit skeptical. I actually like the Dick/Babs idea, but it is very rarely done in a way where both of them look positive. Zucco mayor... meh? Bludhaven is fine. I do think it's "his" city, whether it is made in his image or not. Wonder if Taylor is going to try to make his own version of Bludhaven, go with a previous version (festering crime pit/atlantic city/tech weirdness), or just make it sort of an "any city, USA" feel.

----------


## Restingvoice

"Had a bunch of people asking and, yes, this is Nightwing's new logo. No Batman symbol behind it. All him." - Tom Taylor's Twitter
EpiZnV3UYAAblRv.jpg
Okay.
Okay.
I'm canceling my 5 years minimum of no involving Nightwing crossover/event boycott that alters his story/support cast.
It's now back to just 1 year.

----------


## Waterfall

As someone who fell off the wagon after Humphries, these news are exciting! 

I'm happy with the Bludhaven setting, my problem is with Barbara...I'm supposing Taylor wants to make a modern "entry point" for Nightwing, something  that can be used in other media, so I'm expecting a more "back to basics" approach. Hopefully it's more like Seeley and less like Jurgens.

----------


## BloodOps

Such a small batch of relaunches in March, I'm sure we'll see more in April with Aquaman, Batgirls, etc

But nice to see Dick make that first cut in March with an A list team.

----------


## Konja7

> Such a small batch of relaunches in March, I'm sure we'll see more in April with Aquaman, Batgirls, etc
> 
> But nice to see Dick make that first cut in March with an A list team.


Andrea Shea commented about this in twitter. It seems there is no plans for an Aquaman solo in soon time. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/whatthe_s...48319233871872

----------


## WonderNight

I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.

----------


## Robanker

That's his best logo in a long time. In fact it may be my favorite. That trade dress looks great overall, to be honest.

----------


## Avi

Despite all the talk of home, Blüdhaven is called an adopted city in the official solicitation, which feels very self-aware. I still have hope that Taylor will let Dick branch out of Blüdhaven after the first arc. And who knows to what mobs the Zuccos have ties by now? 

I actually think Humphries utilized Blüdhaven the best. The Judge was tied to Blüdhaven in a unique way, and Humphries didn't forget the Las Vegas vibe Seeley introduced while also incorporating why Blüdhaven is so depressing to its citizens (Guppy). Dixon's and Grayson's Blüdhaven mostly worked, at least for me, because Dick infiltrated the police and because he had an apartment with a supporting cast that seemed to matter even if it was "just" Nancy and Amygdala.

The logo is perfect.

Edit: It's totally too early to say this but the cover is a great cover for an omnibus.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Despite all the talk of home, Blüdhaven is called an adopted city in the official solicitation, which feels very self-aware. I still have hope that Taylor will let Dick branch out of Blüdhaven after the first arc. And who knows to what mobs the Zuccos have ties by now? 
> 
> I actually think Humphries utilized Blüdhaven the best. The Judge was tied to Blüdhaven in a unique way, and Humphries didn't forget the Las Vegas vibe Seeley introduced while also incorporating why Blüdhaven is so depressing to its citizens (Guppy). Dixon's and Grayson's Blüdhaven mostly worked, at least for me, because Dick infiltrated the police and because he had an apartment with a supporting cast that seemed to matter even if it was "just" Nancy and Amygdala.
> 
> The logo is perfect.
> 
> Edit: It's totally too early to say this but the cover is a great cover for an omnibus.


It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster

----------


## Ascended

> "Oh wait theres good news?"
> 
> Don't know tom taylor from adam, but if he's "one of the most exciting talents at DC," I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. 
> 
> I will say, he is apparently choosing to use a lot of things that make me a bit skeptical. I actually like the Dick/Babs idea, but it is very rarely done in a way where both of them look positive. Zucco mayor... meh? Bludhaven is fine. I do think it's "his" city, whether it is made in his image or not. Wonder if Taylor is going to try to make his own version of Bludhaven, go with a previous version (festering crime pit/atlantic city/tech weirdness), or just make it sort of an "any city, USA" feel.


I got no issue with using a Zucco (as you know from our pitch discussions!). If Dick has a classic rival who's well positioned to be his archnemesis, it's the family who put him on the path of the vigilante. I mean, it's either the Zuccos or Blockbuster, and the Zuccos are, at least, directly tied to Dick and his origin and not simply a D-list Bat villain who got upgraded for Nightwing. 

Babs I'm not thrilled by but if Taylor can make it work, okay. Bludhaven is fine, but I expect, nay, demand! that Dick not be stuck there and still gets to explore and go on wandering adventures. Bludhaven is fine as his base of operations but any hero worth their salt does a fair amount of travel and Dick should be possessed of a wanderlust to rival Superman's. 

But all in all I have high hopes that this will be the best Nightwing we've seen in a long, long time. Even the fact that his logo is his own, and not sporting a Bat on it, seems like a quality choice that tells us a lot about this approach to the character.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.


I would expect the Batgirls story to be picked up in the Urban Legends anthology or to be part of the rotating back ups in Batman or Detective.

----------


## Avi

> It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster


That's true. I too thought it would only be an announcement poster. The simple but powerful black, white, and blue also hits differently. It's a very Nightwing combo and already appealed to me when the initial Rebirth cover was revealed.

----------


## Frontier

> That Alfred annual was the issue that made me fine with him dying.


Do you mind explaining why? 



> I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.


I think Batman is for Babs as Oracle along with Steph and Cass as Batgirls while this book will be for Babs as Batgirl.

----------


## Robanker

> It's a similar composition as his Nightwing Year One Deluxe Edition, where he covers his cover with a confident smile and the title at the bottom, which made me at first doubt if that is his logo because it looks like a special cover or announcement poster


It's almost as if cool, charismatic and confidant was the best take for Dick all along.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Just give him some dad joke zingers that are equal parts awful and funny and you have quintessential Dick Grayson.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It's almost as if cool, charismatic and confidant was the best take for Dick all along. 
> 
> Just give him some dad joke zingers that are equal parts awful and funny and you have quintessential Dick Grayson.


Omigosh if anyone thinks Dick is bad at puns wait till he reaches dad jokes. He'll be insufferable, especially if the kid's Damian.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Was that Batman Annual the Alfred story? I do remember really liking that.


That's the one, Father's Day.

----------


## Claude

> That's the one, Father's Day.


Ah, thanks - yeah, liked that a lot. One of the ones where I went back to check who'd written it when I'd finished, just to make a note.


Snyder's said on Twitter today, btw, that he still has "a couple" of DC projects for next year in among his stepping-back and focus on Creator Owned stuff - so Nightwing: Parabola is hopefully still a go.

----------


## Rac7d*

I hope
Red x can work under Dick enough to make a transition from titans to Bat character.

----------


## Claude

> I hope
> Red x can work under Dick enough to make a transition from titans to Bat character.


I'm really curious about Teen Titans Academy... The solicit confirms what we knew (with bonus Shazam) - NTT training new characters, one of whom will become Red X.

Have we talked about how to square this with the Justice League variant cover, where there's a team of Nightwing, Donna, Beast Boy and the remainder of the recently finished Teen Titans book?

https://twitter.com/TBonvillain/stat...32483173134337

My guess is either the "who turns out to be Red X" story is only the one arc, and that sees the rest of the new characters written out by the end... Or there's a second Titans title coming?

----------


## Claude

Also, I'm catching up after having been out of the loop for a bit - still not feeling Tynion's "Batman" run, but #104 delivering it's Ghost Maker exposition through Dick via Robin flashbacks (original costume!) and Spyral references was appreciated. Along with the casual suggestion that all of Bruce's "never talks to a living soul about this" secrets have an "except for Dick" qualifier - and that Dick will do his own follow-up on things like that.

----------


## Robanker

> Omigosh if anyone thinks Dick is bad at puns wait till he reaches dad jokes. He'll be insufferable, especially if the kid's Damian.


Alongside Peter Parker, I would argue Dick's always been making dad jokes. :P

It's part of the charm, really. Dad jokes can still be funny, even if they're groaners.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Ah, thanks - yeah, liked that a lot. One of the ones where I went back to check who'd written it when I'd finished, just to make a note.
> 
> 
> Snyder's said on Twitter today, btw, that he still has "a couple" of DC projects for next year in among his stepping-back and focus on Creator Owned stuff - so Nightwing: Parabola is hopefully still a go.


You're welcome. I did the same as you. Great story.

----------


## Avi

If Parabola comes out in 2021 too that would be amazing. But it probably makes sense for there to be some time between FS and Parabola because they have a similar premise.

I still don't know what to think of TTA. That being said there is potential to establish new meaningful relationships.




> Also, I'm catching up after having been out of the loop for a bit - still not feeling Tynion's "Batman" run, but #104 delivering it's Ghost Maker exposition through Dick via Robin flashbacks (original costume!) and Spyral references was appreciated. Along with the casual suggestion that all of Bruce's "never talks to a living soul about this" secrets have an "except for Dick" qualifier - and that Dick will do his own follow-up on things like that.


That sounds good. Care to elaborate on the Spyral references?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Claude

> That sounds good. Care to elaborate on the Spyral references?


It's not major, but it's nice to have it there - a lot of what Dick tells Barbara/the audience about Ghost Maker and his current situation is what he learned by looking him up in Spyral's files when he was with them.

In fairness to him, Tynion does a reasonable job of "Ghost Maker has always been a thing - you just didn't see him before". So Batman and Robin run into him briefly in the early years, spiking Dick's curiosity - Dick is also the only one aware that Bruce attempted to contact him for "Batman Incorporated" but it didn't go well.

----------


## WonderNight

Speaking of spyral I hope that spyral and dick's connection to it isn't done. With bendis's upcoming checkmate/leviathan book (tiger and dr.netz are there) it would be a cool way for nightwing to have a larger role in the dcu with his solo in bludhaven. Something for dick outside of both batman and titans, this way everyone gets something bludhaven, spyral and titans all at the same time.

I'll give babs a chance in nightwing but does she have to be batgirl and oracle? Would've love if steph had the batgirl role and babs had oracle. But babs gets both roles and steph going back to limbo.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Speaking of spyral I hope that spyral and dick's connection to it isn't done. With bendis's upcoming checkmate/leviathan book (tiger and dr.netz are there) it would be a cool way for nightwing to have a larger role in the dcu with his solo in bludhaven. Something for dick outside of both batman and titans, this way everyone gets something bludhaven, spyral and titans all at the same time.
> 
> I'll give babs a chance in nightwing but does she have to be batgirl and oracle? Would've love if steph had the batgirl role and babs had oracle. But babs gets both roles and steph going back to limbo.


Spyral  has no role in the dcu, they don’t do anything, no one talks about them. They are not like SHIELD

----------


## WonderNight

> Spyral  has no role in the dcu, they don’t do anything, no one talks about them. They are not like SHIELD


Bludhaven has no role in the dcu, it don't do anything , no one talks about it. It is not like GOTHAM  :Cool: .

The point would be nightwing building it up to take on leviathan, also play in the larger dcu. Especially with tta having him just as a classroom teacher.

----------


## Pohzee

The ONE TIME Blüdhaven was relevant to the DCU- Final Crisis- Dick's connection wasn't even mentioned and he played no role in the story. Hell, Tomasi's run in New York had more relevance to the greater DCU with the few throwaway lines in Blackest Night.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Bludhaven has no role in the dcu, it don't do anything , no one talks about it. It is not like GOTHAM .
> 
> The point would be nightwing building it up to take on leviathan, also play in the larger dcu. Especially with tta having him just as a classroom teacher.


It does have a role it’s Nightwings home, one hero can take care of a city

Nightwing cannot run an entire spy organization by himself. It required all of DC agreeing on it and using it. They have pretty much left it in the dust.

----------


## Godlike13

Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.




> The ONE TIME Blüdhaven was relevant to the DCU- Final Crisis- Dick's connection wasn't even mentioned and he played no role in the story. Hell, Tomasi's run in New York had more relevance to the greater DCU with the few throwaway lines in Blackest Night.


Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw don’t forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.

----------


## Pohzee

But they referenced the events of Nightwing Freefall and the new JLA protocol of holding onto superhero corpses.

Also YJ Blüdhaven is a suburb of Gotham. So he's still in Gotham. Which again makes sense for him to be in.

----------


## Ascended

> Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. *They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell.* It’s a trap, but it’s a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.


Don't forget Chicago. That era was slightly better than the other examples, but it all just goes to show that it's not the city, it's the story. All those awful stories that happened in Bludhaven would have still been awful if the city had been Gotham, Vegas, NYC, London, or Shanghai. It doesn't matter what the setting is, a bad story is a bad story and calling the city something different changes nothing.

Bludhaven, like any other element of a story, is only as good as the writer. Had Dick spent the last ten-ish years getting quality writers who built on what came before instead of constantly starting over, we'd be saying that Bludhaven is as well-developed a city as Opal, Central, or Metropolis and a critical aspect of Dick's mythos. But because DC has spent so many years half-assing everything and letting writers ignore everything, the city is as poorly developed and defined as all the other aspects of Dick's setting. 

Stop victim blaming the city people! It's not Bludhaven's fault the book has been bad.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rac7d*

The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress

----------


## AmiMizuno

> The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress


Depends if we change the  police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent

----------


## Rac7d*

> Depends if we change the  police chief into someone running a special unit Dick could be that secret agent


A role befitting a lost duck we know

----------


## Avi

> The closest equivalent dc has to Nick Fury is Amanda Waller. So perhaps if she adopted spyral it could make some progress


The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.

I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU. 

Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The closest but that didn't help ARGUS. At least I haven't heard of ARGUS since Darkseid War, is it still around? And Suicide Squad didn't stay relevant because of Waller in recent years.
> 
> I don't think Spyral needs Waller to be useful. Just creators that see it as established. On the other hand, where would it even play a role? Appearing in an event like Leviathan no matter how marginal is still pretty impressive considering how many new ideas get thrown away. There is an absolute lack of the spy genre in the current DCU. 
> 
> Dick could use Spyral to keep an eye out for the Parliament of Owls now that the Owls are back. I could also see Spyral working on the premise of "preventing crime before it happens" the way Winick's Outsiders were supposed to.


 Dude I don’t even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches.  It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities don’t interfere themselves it’s a location it can’t act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and it’s sole purpose can’t be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I can’t think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs can’t.

----------


## Badou

Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow, and to forgo that for more garbage Bludhaven stories is insane to me. How someone can choose Dick working some boring normal job again as a waiter, bartender, or some stupid cab diver over him saving people around the world and being involved in bigger stories is something I'll never understand. 




> Does Bludhaven have to have a role in the DCU? Some of you guys blame Bludhaven for too much. Bludhaven is not keeping him away from Spyral, or Titans, or even a globe trotting. Look at the YJ cartoon. Bludhaven could easily just function as it has it function. And even some of the other shit. They moved him to NY, it was the same shit, they moved him to Gotham, it was the same shit. A lot of that has to do with the kinds of stories they choose to tell. Its a trap, but its a trap they choose to lean into for convenience.


Bludhaven doesn't really exist unless Dick is physically in the city. It has nothing else in it of value and is useless unless Dick is there. It does noting for his character but weight him down since Bludhaven has been used as an excuse to keep him away from things. They do use his "Bludhaven responsibilities" as a convenient excuse to explain why he isn't involved in some stories, or as a wedge in his relationships like with Barbara. 100% we will see it again in Taylor's run. 

They should just go the Young Justice route and just make Bludhaven a part of Gotham as that is all it basically is now these days. It can't produce anything on its own and they have to drag things from Gotham to even create stories for it. 

But I honestly can't wait for Bludhaven to fail again. It sucks more creators are going to waste their time writing stories about it, but when it fails at least everyone's argument that it isn't Bludhaven't fault, or that it isn't that bad, will become narrower and narrower where it will become even harder to stand on anymore, lol.

----------


## Ascended

> Spyral was basically destroyed by Bendis. So it isn't this big organization anymore. It's just basically Tiger running it now that Helena isn't really involved with it. So it is completely open to being rebuilt however Dick wants it to be. He doesn't need someone to run it for him. It can function as a small team or small organization that can operate like an Outsiders team, like what he was even running in the Young Justice show. The idea that Dick couldn't run that is incredibly limiting to him. The entire spy side of the DCU is open for the taking and has tons of room to grow


Agreed with all of this.

The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU. 

Leviathan was supposed to streamline all of that and bring it into sharper focus, with a wider influence and range (which is *partially* why it all began in Superman). 

Then Didio was fired and everything got thrown into chaos and whatever Bendis had planned to do after that initial Leviathan story died....or maybe just got delayed a lot. Either way, right now all those various spy groups are dead in the water, Leviathan is still technically a major player, and this entire corner of the DCU is available for any character who can grab it and hold onto it. 

And of all the heroes in DC, Dick is as well placed as any to take it as his own. He's got the experience with Spyral, not to mention the Owls, HIVE, the Wildebeest Society, and all the other secret societies and spy groups and terror organizations he's dealt with as both a Bat and a Titan. It's a niche he can call his own, he's got the skillset for it, and his personality runs counter to the morally gray, secret-laden world of spies which makes for great drama and internal conflict, without overloading him on self-doubt. 

And if Nick Fury could go on adventures with the Howling Commandos while also running SHIELD, Dick can go on adventures while running Spyral. If Batman can be in three different Leagues, the Outsiders, Crisis Events, and still protect Gotham, then Dick can also find time to bust some heads while running a organization. It's not a big stretch to imagine Dick saying "Okay Tiger, you're my right hand, and I'm gonna go punch the Fearsome Five in their noses; you're in charge while I'm gone. Don't assassinate anyone I wouldn't!" 

Where I disagree with my man Badou, naturally, is in how this works with Bludhaven. Dick can both run Spyral, or whatever spy agency DC uses going forward, while still hanging his hat in Bludhaven (or Gotham, Metropolis, Opal, Vanity, Keystone, Jump, or any other city). Narratively, we'd want more variety than just "spy" stories and a home city would easily provide that. If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WonderNight

I don't blame bludhaven for sucking, I blame dc and fans for trying to sell me on bludhaven being something it's not.Which is something important and relevant to nightwings character and growth.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Bludhaven should be a entertainment center. Many casinos and maybe even movie and network places. Heck it gives reasons for Nightwing to maybe go to one of the entertainment or casino places given his background. I mean certain people have used their status for drugs and human trafficking. Heck to give a reason for magic users to enter maybe people like Zatanna could be a center act. I mean if Batman can deal in magic why not Dick? He has raven and a Donna. Why not have Dick have to deal with a few magic crimes? Any ideas for a story line like that? Any villains that could be rewritten to deal with magic or connections?

----------


## SiegePerilous02

I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham. 

We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.

----------


## Badou

> If Dick spent a lot of time doing Spyral stuff, a short arc about taking down Double Dare or KGBeast in his city might even feel refreshing and novel!


Can't he just do that in Gotham? I mean it is where his friends are family are. If he is dating Barbara again that is where she lives, so he is going to keep going back to Gotham anyway. It's natural to return to that city given his deep ties to it and the people there. It just feels redundant to have this whole other city that has none of those deep ties that acts as a watered down Gotham just to tell these smaller street level stories that have to drag pieces from Gotham to tell them anyway. 

I mean if you have Bludhaven then Dick is basically splitting his time up between a lot of locations. You have Bludhaven, Gotham that he will still be used in, and the Teen Titans who are probably going to be located in NYC or JL Headquarters (maybe even Gotham because of the new Titans TV series season) and do some globetrotting for them. Bludhaven seems so useless compared to these other locations. I also want Spyral stories and Dick to do globetrotting separate from the Titans. When you line all this up it just feels like Bludhaven is the weakest link and is completely unnecessary.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham. 
> 
> We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.


Because they already have tied him down to Bludhaven even more. Gotham would just add more stuff with that. Besides I mean Bludhaven much like Dick have good and bad history. Plus that's why he left Gotham. Gotham reflects Bruce not Dick.Besides if anything why not let him live with the Titans in New York or San Fransisco. They want him to be a bit or Batfam and his own thing. He can't be if he is living in Gotham. They have another of the Batfam to do Nightwing's job already.

----------


## Godlike13

> Bludhaven doesn't really exist unless Dick is physically in the city. It has nothing else in it of value and is useless unless Dick is there. It does noting for his character but weight him down since Bludhaven has been used as an excuse to keep him away from things. They do use his "Bludhaven responsibilities" as a convenient excuse to explain why he isn't involved in some stories, or as a wedge in his relationships like with Barbara. 100% we will see it again in Taylor's run. 
> 
> They should just go the Young Justice route and just make Bludhaven a part of Gotham as that is all it basically is now these days. It can't produce anything on its own and they have to drag things from Gotham to even create stories for it. 
> 
> But I honestly can't wait for Bludhaven to fail again. It sucks more creators are going to waste their time writing stories about it, but when it fails at least everyone's argument that it isn't Bludhaven't fault, or that it isn't that bad, will become narrower and narrower where it will become even harder to stand on anymore, lol.


Does it need to exist outside of Dick though. It’s a play setting for Nightwing. Again your blaming Bludhaven for things it has no hand in. If it wasn’t Bludhaven, they would just use a different excuse. Cause what it really comes down to is that they don’t want him involved in those stories. And they don’t have to drag things from Gotham, that was again a choice abused by old mediocre creators who didn’t give a crap and dragged in Gotham things to make there quick to produce lazy stories even more convenient. Which Bludhaven allows for, and that’s why it’s a trap. It allows for creators to abuse old formulas and tropes. Bludhaven is just a fictional setting though, it’s not the creator of what’s done with it. Your making Bludhaven this lighting rod for the issues behind Bludhaven that make it what it is. If he goes to New York’s his stories don’t just get better, or Gotham, or Chicago. Cause it not really about the where but the kinds of stories they tell and the conditioned formula. Bludhaven literally could just be where his apartment is, its not what dictates the kinds of stories they choose to tell.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham. 
> 
> We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.


He can also do that with a base in Bludhaven, look i'm not crazy about the city myself, but i don't really think that it gets in the way of the stories that many seem to want.

And before you tell me about lazy writers, might i remind you that when Bludhaven was a crater they tried to tie him to New York and then Chicago, so that laziness can crawl back regardless of the status quo.

----------


## WonderNight

But there's a way dick can have both. If Taylor what nightwing to be an A-list hero in the dcu he can't just be limited to a street leveler. So dick should be more like this.

Nightwing. Dick's solo street level book in bludhaven or gotham or wherever.

Spyral. Dick's globetrotting convert op team book. DC's core espionage book. His own outsiders or birds of prey.

 Teen titans academy. Dick shows up from time to time to teach the young heroes and hang with his friends.

This way dick has a book for more street level bat story's, globetrotting espionage dcu story's and some titans story's.

----------


## Ascended

> Can't he just do that in Gotham?


Sure. He can hang his hat between adventures anywhere. Gotham. Jump City. Metropolis. Whatever. That's kind of the point I'm making; a setting is what you make it. Good or bad, a setting has no value or personality outside of what is provided to it. Places like Gotham were developed and built up over time, which is why we have things like Arkham and Crime Alley and a full cast of cops under Gordon. None of that stuff was there right from day one, it unfolded slowly over years as writers built on what the previous guys had done. Bludhaven didn't get that, it got reinvented from the ground up with each new creative team. And that's easy to fix; you just start telling your writers to use what is already there instead of constantly re-inventing the setting. 

Regarding Dick living in Gotham, I think it's an awful idea. Have we not spent years bitching about DC turning Nightwing into nothing more than a glorified sidekick? Have we not raged against the loss of his individuality? Putting Dick in Gotham allows you to use some familiar faces and locations, at the expense of his own mythology. It'll ensure that Dick remains that sidekick, and not a hero in his own right. It's not worth the cost. 

That's the thing; Dick can live anywhere on earth, or even on another planet, and still reach Gotham at the speed of plot. Back when the Titans were on the West Coast, Dick was still able to show up in Gotham any time the writers wanted him there. Dick could live in London or Sydney or planet Rann and still show up for all the important Bat Events, or even just drop by for dinner and a guest appearance. Distance and time only matter when the writer wants to add a foil to the story, otherwise the character just gets there when they're meant to. It doesn't matter that Bruce and Babs and whoever else live in Gotham, Dick can get there whenever the writer wants him to. And not all of us live in the same town as our friends and family. A lot of us move to new towns we have no prior connection to, and make them our own. Why should Dick be any different?

We can put Dick in Gotham, and by doing so make sure he's always a sidekick because he lives literally under Bruce's shadow. Or we can put him in his own city where he can develop and grow his own setting, supporting cast, etc....and still visit Gotham any time the story wants him to. It doesn't have to be Bludhaven, it just has to be Nightwing's.




> But there's a way dick can have both.


You don't even need different books for that. One arc, Nightwing can do the street level thing in his home city, taking care of local problems. Next arc he can fly off to Thanagar to stop some Gordanian slavers from selling metahumans. Arc after that he can go to Khandaq and deal with HIVE or Leviathan. Then back to his home city for the next storyline.

----------


## Badou

> Does it need to exist outside of Dick though. Its a play setting for Nightwing. Again your blaming Bludhaven for things it has no hand in. If it wasnt Bludhaven, they would just use a different excuse. Cause what it really comes down to is that they dont want him involved in those stories. And they dont have to drag things from Gotham, that was again a choice abused by old mediocre creators who didnt give a crap and dragged in Gotham things to make there quick to produce lazy stories even more convenient. Which Bludhaven allows for, and thats why its a trap. It allows for creators to abuse old formulas and tropes. Bludhaven is just a fictional setting though, its not the creator of whats done with it. Your making Bludhaven this lighting rod for the issues behind Bludhaven that make it what it is. If he goes to New Yorks his stories dont just get better, or Gotham, or Chicago. Cause it not really about the where but the kinds of stories they tell and the conditioned formula. Bludhaven literally could just be where his apartment is, its not what dictates the kinds of stories they choose to tell.


The setting does dictate what kind of stories are told, or at least it should. The role of a setting to set the foundation for what kind of stories you can create. The problem with Bludhaven is that it doesn't have anything to pull from to create stories. It's Dick stuck in a sandbox without any sand. That is one of my big problems with it. Instead of having him be in a place with actual value and resources to draw from he is stuck in a place that limits his stories. I had the same problems with Chicago, which Higgins dragged a Zucco there to try and fill that setting out just like Taylor is doing with Bludhaven now. It's all the same. These locations that are interchangeable are useless, imo. 

Places like Gotham or a NYC are different in that they have value beyond just Dick. Gotham is obvious given it is probably only behind Marvel's NYC in terms of utility and useable assets given how much is there, but even a NYC in the DCU has value beyond what a Bludhaven has. It is where the Teen Titans are located, where the JSA are, and loads of other things. It is a much richer playground to build stories in. The whole reason people even like these long form superhero comic stories is because they enjoy seeing these characters with all this history interact together. It's the core of what these stories are built on. Settings with these characters and history allow these stories to feel organic as you feel like there are all these moving parts that exist outside of just what you see on the comic pages. A Bludhaven doesn't have any of this and has to constantly pull things from elsewhere to fill itself out and it feels completely hollow to me when I read it.

To take a character like Dick and put him in a place that has nothing and think that doesn't effect him is something I don't get. Sure, that doesn't mean just because he is in a Gotham or a NYC with far more characters, heroes, villains, and everything else means that creators would use any of that. It could be the exact same boring stories we get in Bludhaven, but I'd rather put creators in a setting that gives them the option to do a lot more than one that has basically offers them nothing.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I don't get why Dick and Babs can't just live in Gotham. 
> 
> We want Nightwing to travel around, but he can do that with his home base being Gotham which he actually has history with. Bludhaven is just so useless and was only relevant when it was blown up.


Did you see that splash page, Gotham is overpopulated with heroes. Youd think the crime rate would go down. They could do 3 dat rotation schedules at this point

----------


## AmiMizuno

> But there's a way dick can have both. If Taylor what nightwing to be an A-list hero in the dcu he can't just be limited to a street leveler. So dick should be more like this.
> 
> Nightwing. Dick's solo street level book in bludhaven or gotham or wherever.
> 
> Spyral. Dick's globetrotting convert op team book. DC's core espionage book. His own outsiders or birds of prey.
> 
>  Teen titans academy. Dick shows up from time to time to teach the young heroes and hang with his friends.
> 
> This way dick has a book for more street level bat story's, globetrotting espionage dcu story's and some titans story's.


The issue with that is simple. We haven’t rebuilt the Titans. We also have the issue is why does he need the spyr? I mean titans or other organizations already exist. You run the issue of how many same organizations. You can’t have everything when you also can’t have your own hero right. If any thing we should have a team of Wally,Dick and Donna. I mean why have more cast members when you don’t use the cast you already have outside the Batfam.

----------


## Badou

> Sure. He can hang his hat between adventures anywhere. Gotham. Jump City. Metropolis. Whatever. That's kind of the point I'm making; a setting is what you make it. Good or bad, a setting has no value or personality outside of what is provided to it. Places like Gotham were developed and built up over time, which is why we have things like Arkham and Crime Alley and a full cast of cops under Gordon. None of that stuff was there right from day one, it unfolded slowly over years as writers built on what the previous guys had done. Bludhaven didn't get that, it got reinvented from the ground up with each new creative team. And that's easy to fix; you just start telling your writers to use what is already there instead of constantly re-inventing the setting.


I don't think that is an easy fix. Just look at characters from Marvel or DC. No one in decades has created a new setting for an established character that is a fraction of what a Gotham or a Metropolis is. What a Bludhaven is now is probably one of the best attempts. In the last 20-30 years can you even name another city that has been created that is as well known as Bludhaven? And I think Bludhaven is complete garbage with no value. Even characters like Wonder Woman struggle to have a consistent setting. A large reason a Gotham has as much as it does isn't because creators just reused assets, but also because it has been grandfathered into modern comics from an era where it was much easier to create new things that lasted. I just don't think you can create a strong setting in modern comics that comes close to a Gotham. It's the same with a rogues gallery for a character. People always complain about Dick's rogues gallery, but it is nearly impossible to just create a rogues gallery in modern comics for the same reasons.  

When you look at all the big successful characters since the 90s that have had solo runs they don't really have "their own city" and stuff. They tend to be vagabonds or put in an already established city/location. Characters like a Punisher, Wolverine, Deadpool, Venom, Harley Quinn, Ms Marvel, Catwoman, Red Hood, and so on. There is nothing to indicate that Dick having his own city is ever going to work out the way people imagine it could. 




> Regarding Dick living in Gotham, I think it's an awful idea. Have we not spent years bitching about DC turning Nightwing into nothing more than a glorified sidekick? Have we not raged against the loss of his individuality? Putting Dick in Gotham allows you to use some familiar faces and locations, at the expense of his own mythology. It'll ensure that Dick remains that sidekick, and not a hero in his own right. It's not worth the cost.


It doesn't matter if he lives in Gotham or not. He'll always be treated like a sidekick. He hasn't lived in Gotham in 7 years now? And before the New 52 he last lived in Gotham maybe in the 80s? So he has lived outside of Gotham far more often than he has lived in Gotham and people still complain about him as being treated like a sidekick. What has been proven time and time again is that Bludhaven doesn't protect Dick from being treated like a sidekick or getting dragged into awful Batman crossovers. If it is going to be the same if he is in Gotham or not then I'd rather him just be in a location that gives him more opportunities and resources for his stories, which a Bludhaven doesn't offer him. Bludhaven is just a watered down Gotham anyway that they have to drag assets from Gotham to use for stories. If anything Bludhaven keeps Nightwing under Batman's shadow even more as it forces the Batman comparisons by making him into being Batman-lite in a knockoff Gotham.




> That's the thing; Dick can live anywhere on earth, or even on another planet, and still reach Gotham at the speed of plot. Back when the Titans were on the West Coast, Dick was still able to show up in Gotham any time the writers wanted him there. Dick could live in London or Sydney or planet Rann and still show up for all the important Bat Events, or even just drop by for dinner and a guest appearance. Distance and time only matter when the writer wants to add a foil to the story, otherwise the character just gets there when they're meant to. It doesn't matter that Bruce and Babs and whoever else live in Gotham, Dick can get there whenever the writer wants him to. And not all of us live in the same town as our friends and family. A lot of us move to new towns we have no prior connection to, and make them our own. Why should Dick be any different?


But when you move to that new town you tend to do that for a new job, right? And you eventually build a new life in that new town. Dick doesn't have either of those. He doesn't have a job tying him to Bludhaven and after 25 years has failed to create anything close to a new meaningful life there. I think it is a complete waste of time to spend more time there. I'd rather Dick not have a anchored location and is on the move constantly doing hero work around the world. It fits his background more with coming from a traveling circus, and then Gotham can be his home he can return to when he wants to see his family and loved ones. That feels like such an easier set up than tacking on Bludhaven too where he just goes back to be all alone? That just sounds awful to me. Seeing him constantly going back to Bludhaven where he has nothing and no connections is just depressing to me.

----------


## Hannibal

I always thought that Bludheaven would suit Red Hood better.

The way they want to make it worst, meaner, darker than Gotham, if that’s even possible lol

----------


## Drako

> He can also do that with a base in Bludhaven, look i'm not crazy about the city myself, but i don't really think that it gets in the way of the stories that many seem to want.
> 
> And before you tell me about lazy writers, might i remind you that when Bludhaven was a crater they tried to tie him to New York and then Chicago, so that laziness can crawl back regardless of the status quo.


We had probably the worst Nightwing story of all time in New York and no one was talking about how bad the city was. Some people here just hate the the city cause of Grayson. They think Bludhaven ties him into one place, when Seeley already made a book where he did both city staying and globetrotting stories.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Honestly I wish the Titans appeared more in a book. Dc seems to want more Batfam than Titans. Why not both. Why not a Dick and Wally comic ?

----------


## Ascended

> I don't think that is an easy fix. Just look at characters from Marvel or DC. No one in decades has created a new setting for an established character that is a fraction of what a Gotham or a Metropolis is.


Oh gods no, nobody is ever going to create the equal to Gotham. But matching Gotham isn't the goal; that's like saying you shouldn't bother playing basketball if you're not as good as Michael Jordan. The goal is to provide a workable, consistent setting that jives with the main character and provides a space for him to do stuff in. You're not wrong that Bludhaven has rarely managed to provide anything worthwhile. Most versions do indeed suck ass. I disagree because you blame the setting and not the creators and editors. You're blaming part of the story for being bad instead of the storytellers who *made* it bad. 




> There is nothing to indicate that Dick having his own city is ever going to work out the way people imagine it could.


But nothing that actually proves it won't work out, either. What you have, is a bunch of crappy Nightwing comics and you're pointing to them and saying "these bad creators had bad ideas and told bad stories, and it's Bludhaven's fault." But we can point to good comics that happened in Bludhaven, and good comics that happened outside of it too. It's not Bludhaven, it's the creators.

Now, if you want to argue that being a nomad is more true to Dick's character and he shouldn't really be tied down to any particular city, I'd largely agree with that. He should have a homebase because nobody wants to perpetually live out of a suitcase, but most of his adventures should be globe trotting. 




> It doesn't matter if he lives in Gotham or not. He'll always be treated like a sidekick.


Not always. He'll always be a Bat, but that's a different thing than being a sidekick. He wasn't treated as a sidekick in the old Titans or his own solo, not until TPTB decided to regress the character (circa 06 I guess?) and make him a Robin in all but name. And the people who did that to him are all gone. We don't know yet what the new people will do. 




> But when you move to that new town you tend to do that for a new job, right?


Not necessarily. People move for tons of reasons. Hell, sometimes I've moved just to get a change of scenery. The "why" of Dick living in Bludhaven is just a creative choice. Hell at this point, if all the post-Crisis history gets put back into the DCU, Dick's lived off and on in Bludhaven for several years. Rough years with a lot of up's and down's and the city has been in perpetual identity crisis, but he's lived there for a not-marginal amount of his adult life. 




> And you eventually build a new life in that new town. Dick doesn't have either of those.


He doesn't. But that's because of bad story tellers and editors, not because the idea itself is bad. As they say, there are no bad ideas, only bad writers. Or something like that. 

And being in Gotham means Dick uses Arkham, and Clayface, and Gordon, instead of his own supporting cast. He'll be in Gotham, no point in trying to build up his own supporting cast right? Because Gotham's so great. What does that do for Dick as a character and hero? It makes him the sidekick DC treated him as. If the goal is to make Nightwing viable as a solo IP (and I believe it should be, though it's a long-term investment) then using someone else's setting because it's established and better and there's sidekick history there, is absolutely counterintuitive. Yes, a new setting (or Bludhaven) isn't as good as Gotham. Make it better. Build it up. Mandate your writers that they can't nuke everything and start from scratch, that they actually have to adhere to continuity. The mistakes of the past have stunted this effort and discarded it, but changing that and starting the process of solid world building is literally one editorial memo away. 

Anyway, I respect you and your opinion and agree with you on a lot of other things. I really enjoy your insights, even on this topic. But we're not changing each other's minds here and we both know it, because we've had this same debate like, half a dozen times.  :Big Grin:  Shall we agree to disagree and stop making these other poor posters watch us make the same points we've already batted about?  :Smile: 

Here's a question; why are those dumb little blue stripes still on Dick's ankles? I don't get what that's about. It doesn't really fit any other aesthetic on the suit, outside of the blue color. It's not any kind of marketable visual marker. Why are they still here? And why is Dick not wearing that DCAU suit we saw as a background image in Doomsday Clock? That suit looked good.

----------


## Vordan

The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick *want* to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.

So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?

----------


## WonderNight

Thats way I say if dick's gonna be in bludhevan it should be a vegas/alantic city, because bludhevan should be one big giant halys circus that dick feels a at home in and a connection. Still much perfer globtrotting  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Digifiend

> I don't think there's gonna be a batgirls book next, I think the main reason Barbara is in nightwing is because of that. But we'll see.


If there is, it'll star Cass and Steph, not Babs. She'll be a voice in the ear, like she is to Batman, but she won't be the protagonist.




> Dick was Batman during Blackest Night. Btw dont forget Infinite Crisis where they blew it up lol.


Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.




> Dude I dont even know what ARGUS is. However your saying Dick could use Spyral. Someone has to run it for him to use it, it has to have operative, connections and branches.  It never interfered with the greater world of DC. Cities dont interfere themselves its a location it cant act only be a backdrop. Spyral is an organization it needs to have a purpose and its sole purpose cant be just for Dick Grayson. Especially since I cant think of Spyral doing anything for him Babs cant.


You don't know what ARGUS is? Have you not watched Arrow, where it appears quite prominently?




> The spy/espionage side of the DCU is practically a blank slate, and until Bendis attempted to streamline things it was full of various departments, organizations, and groups that all overlapped each other, which most of us don't even remember. Human Defense Corps? SHADE? Argus? Department of Metahuman Affairs? Department of Extranormal Operations? Y'all remember even half of those? All basically the same thing, and all attempts by various writers to introduce a "SHIELD" proxy to the DCU.


Fair point. ARGUS in Arrow and the DEO in Supergirl do seem to do pretty much the same thing. I guess they overlap in the comics too?

----------


## Godlike13

> Dick wasn't there at the time. Tim and Cass were protecting it instead - they lost their headquarters and Tim lost his stepmother and his fake uncle, his father having already died in Identity Crisis, causing Bruce to adopt him.


And? No one gave a crap they were there. They blew it up because of Nightwing, and he even went on to play a role in IC.

----------


## Badou

> Oh gods no, nobody is ever going to create the equal to Gotham. But matching Gotham isn't the goal; that's like saying you shouldn't bother playing basketball if you're not as good as Michael Jordan. The goal is to provide a workable, consistent setting that jives with the main character and provides a space for him to do stuff in. You're not wrong that Bludhaven has rarely managed to provide anything worthwhile. Most versions do indeed suck ass. I disagree because you blame the setting and not the creators and editors. You're blaming part of the story for being bad instead of the storytellers who *made* it bad.


I never said equal to Gotham. That obviously will never happen in a million years. I said no creator from either Marvel or DC has been able to even create a new city that is a fraction, like 1/8th or even less, of what Gotham is in the last 30 years. Bludhaven is kind of the best example and it is bad. It leads me to believe that it isn't possible to create a new city for an established hero to operate in and have it actually last. 




> But nothing that actually proves it won't work out, either. What you have, is a bunch of crappy Nightwing comics and you're pointing to them and saying "these bad creators had bad ideas and told bad stories, and it's Bludhaven's fault." But we can point to good comics that happened in Bludhaven, and good comics that happened outside of it too. It's not Bludhaven, it's the creators.


You keep blaming the creators, but if the creators are given faulty tools to work with you can't expect them to succeed. If the list of creators who write about Bludhaven keep failing and nothing ends up sticking maybe it isn't just that they are bad writers but that as a concept Bludhaven is kind of broken. It's a poorly designed city that was created to turn Dick into a traditional Daredevil-lite type hero, but Dick isn't anything like Daredevil. He doesn't have any real ties or a reason to care about Bludhaven the way a Daredevil cares about Hell's Kitchen, which is the core identity of what makes those heroes in those settings work, but we are supposed to believe he wants to be there for... some reason. There is nothing about it that makes it special to Dick other than it was just a place Dixon created to be a worse Gotham. 




> Now, if you want to argue that being a nomad is more true to Dick's character and he shouldn't really be tied down to any particular city, I'd largely agree with that. He should have a homebase because nobody wants to perpetually live out of a suitcase, but most of his adventures should be globe trotting.


He has Gotham and Titans Tower. They are two home bases that actually have people Dick cares about in them. I don't see the point of a third one when it has nothing in it that would give him a reason to want to keep going back to it. All of his loved ones, friends, allies, and everything else are located outside of Bludhaven.




> And being in Gotham means Dick uses Arkham, and Clayface, and Gordon, instead of his own supporting cast. He'll be in Gotham, no point in trying to build up his own supporting cast right? Because Gotham's so great. What does that do for Dick as a character and hero? It makes him the sidekick DC treated him as. If the goal is to make Nightwing viable as a solo IP (and I believe it should be, though it's a long-term investment) then using someone else's setting because it's established and better and there's sidekick history there, is absolutely counterintuitive. Yes, a new setting (or Bludhaven) isn't as good as Gotham. Make it better. Build it up. Mandate your writers that they can't nuke everything and start from scratch, that they actually have to adhere to continuity. The mistakes of the past have stunted this effort and discarded it, but changing that and starting the process of solid world building is literally one editorial memo away.


Gotham is a big enough playground to have his own stories in. Dick's greatest solo story was him as Batman running around Gotham with Jim Gordon in Black Mirror. You couldn't do more stories like that with him in Gotham as Nightwing? I think you can. I mean dragging assets from Gotham to use for Bludhaven makes Bludhaven kind of redundant. Even Taylor is dragging Batgirl and a Zucco from Gotham to prop up Bludhaven some. I mean did people complain when Tim, Cass, Steph, Barbara, Jason, Catwoman, Harley, and others have solo stories set in Gotham? They didn't, so I don't get why it is just an issue for Dick.

And forcing writers to use things they don't like probably won't lead to good stories. A big reason writers don't like using the stuff old Bludhaven writers made is because they are kind of terrible. Seeley tried to bring back a lot of the old Dixon era stuff but all it did was remind me of how awful most of those creations were. Do you really want more Blockbuster stories? I'd be fine with never having to read about Dick fighting him again.

But yeah, I think we beat this topic into the ground for now. We are going in circles and I'm sure that after Taylor's run comes out the topic will be brought up again in some form, lol. 




> The “trick” to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick *want* to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dick’s relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because it’s a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and it’s got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because it’s where he grew up and lost his parents, and he’s sworn to cleanse the city of crime.
> 
> So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?


This is what I've been saying the whole time. All the elements you need to have him be connected as a hero to Bludhaven don't exist, but we are supposed think he wants to be there when there is nothing tying him to that city that would give him a reason to care. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You'd have to rebuild Dick's history to make it work I think.

----------


## Godlike13

How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How many writers actually wrote in Bludhaven, 6? Dixon made it work, Grayson got lost in her Born Again attempt, Seeley’s made it the most interesting it’s ever been even though his heart wasn’t in the stories he was telling in the city (but his work on the city itself was good), Humphies actually used Seeley’s Bludhaven rather well, we didn’t really get to see what Percy was gonna do (and he had an artist who made everything look dated and gritty), and then you have Lobdell and Jurgens. And Lobdell and Jurgens just blew. Where ever they put him they were going to blow. Lobdell was one of DC’s worse creators, and Jurgens checked out creatively years ago. It’s actually quite fair to blame the creators for not succeeding with Bludhaven in this case. And I could take or leave Bludhaven at this point. But still, it’s just silly to let creators off the hook and blame Bludhaven as to why they sucked.


Dixon, Grayson, Seeley, Humphries, Percy, Lobdell, Jurgens... 7 and now there will be 8
I don't know if there are other, fill-in writers, in the 90s-2000s

----------


## Restingvoice

> The trick to Bludhaven is answering a simple question: Why there and not anywhere else? Why does Dick *want* to live there? Answering that question helps you establish the city and Dicks relationship with it. Clark is in Metropolis because its a big city where he can help lots of people, it has prestigious newspapers like the Daily Planet which let Clark pursue his interests in journalism, and its got threats only he can handle. Bruce is in Gotham because its where he grew up and lost his parents, and hes sworn to cleanse the city of crime.
> 
> So why does Dick want to live in Bludhaven?


Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, he decided he might as well roost there.
Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out. 
Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.

----------


## Vordan

> Classically, because he was there to investigate the bodies that washed up in Gotham and when he found out the crimes go deeper, *he decided he might as well roost there*.
> Rebirthically, because he was in transition after being an agent of Spyral and figuring out what to do, then Classic Superman came and told him that Classic Nightwing roost there so he might as well check it out. 
> Infinitely, we don't know yet, because the most recent canon has every character remember all his history, but we don't know how much it affect them.


“I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.

----------


## Restingvoice

> “I don’t have anything better to do, might as well stick around”. Yeah I can see the problem there, that’s not really telling me a lot about Bludhaven or Dick. Honestly I think the idea of transition should be explored more, Dick becoming something new besides Robin with Nightwing should be paralleled in Bludhaven becoming something new as well.


He likes to help and stays where help is needed, and yeah, that means it doesn't have to be Bludhaven. It could be any city, any neighborhood.

----------


## Avi

I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one. 

What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister. 

Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.

I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.

----------


## WonderNight

Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!

Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.

Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.

Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.

There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't care that much for a great reason that has Dick stay in Blüdhaven. It will never be as strong as Bruce's reason to stay in Gotham anyway. Of course, they should still find a better one. 
> 
> What damages the city more in my eyes is that it is right next to Gotham. That made sense to Dixon, especially because he had creative control over most of the Bats, but it doesn't really make sense when trying to establish Dick as an A-lister. 
> 
> Still, if Taylor keeps some of the concepts Seeley and Humphries introduced and maybe even brings some stories/concepts back from the old Blüdhaven the city could feel pretty alive.
> 
> I wonder how much the whole "one timeline" direction will affect Nightwing. Especially in regards to the villains. I would be thrilled if the new version of Blockbuster stayed. The old version's story was told, and I didn't enjoy that Jurgens seemingly brought pre-N52 Blockbuster back in the last Annual. I hope that the Shrike appearing in Suicide Squad will be connected to Dick in some way. NW #68 showed him as one of Dick's villains but it wouldn't be the first time that such details are being ignored.


The one timeline is there to establish in canon what Scott Snyder wanted and what Jim Lee announced, so that writers can pull any material from any of their rich history and have it be canon while at the same time not thinking too much about how it's canon, so they can just focus on the character and the story they want to tell in the present.

That's usually a pick and choose what you like, and can change from writer to writer. Let's say the Suicide Squad writer doesn't give any indication that Shrike remembers Nightwing, the moment Williamson uses him in Nightwing, he can establish that he's an old foe... if the story isn't about them meeting for the first time but they remember they used to be enemies. That over complicates things though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Look it doesn't matter what city dick's in because it doesn't address the core issues, that being nighwing as batman-lite/diet batman and a reduntant bat! As long as nightwing remains those thing's nothing will change for him. He'll never be A-list or invested in. Dick's problem is that nighwings core concept is Jr batman!
> 
> Nighwing needs a concept reboot. The reason nightwing even has a city is to be like batman. But the thing is the dcu already has batman and on top of that nightwing under the same franchise. You don't have your spinoff character be a lesser version of the main character. Tom Taylors run will end up going nowhere in the longer run just like dixons because the core concept of Jr batman doesn't work. Here's the fix.
> 
> Core Batman: City/Steet level/Detective.
> 
> Core Nightwing: Globtrotting/Meta humans/Espionage.
> 
> There. Now no more batman-lite, diet batman, adult robin. Nighwing is his own thing from batman! Now he can grow.


Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place

----------


## WonderNight

> Nightwing having a city will allow him to follow the successful tv model that’s been in place. This new run Taylor got going is. An outline for a future spin-off from titans. The pieces are already in place


 Nighwing ain't gettin no spin-off. They'll go with redhood, batgirl or robin first. But whatever nightwing's a dead end Dick! Dick would be better off going to robin or agent 37. Nightwings a waste of time.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls

----------


## WonderNight

> I mean he can live in Bludhaven and travel around or just live in the T tower. This is why you can easily just make Dick a P.I. Not doesn’t have to be agent 37 just be hired or travel around for cases. I mean heck you can have him go back to Haley’s Circus to travel around. He can use his background in entertainment to research others. He doesn’t have to be in Bludhaven. He can still live there. But the simple fact is you don’t need him in Batfam or Titans to for him to travel on his own. Heck the people who help him can easily be the people who saved from court of owls


Its not about a story arc its about the fundamental concepts of Nightwing! What's Nightwings selling point? His "gimmick" his "hook"? Right now its fromer robin, batman lite or im dick grayson. That's not gonna got the general public DC WB or AT&T invested! Only already comics dick grayson fans.

DC WB and AT&T needs to be able to look at nightwing and say this is selling point. SomeThing on a fundamental level that different from the character he spinoff from. Investing in Nightwing running around a city while you have batman in gotham is highy redundant. You go to pitch nightwing to AT&T and give them two options.

First: Adult robin\Batman-lite.

Second: Batman meets Bond/Mission Impossible, in the DCU sandbox.

Let be real, we all know which one that'd go with. one of those could be huge for DC & AT&T and we know which one.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I'm saying if we want him to travel why not get Haley's Circus involved? He can easily make that his base.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'm saying if we want him to travel why not get Haley's Circus involved? He can easily make that his base.


Becuase joker blew it up
And circuses are dead

----------


## Ascended

> Fair point. ARGUS in Arrow and the DEO in Supergirl do seem to do pretty much the same thing. I guess they overlap in the comics too?


Them and a good dozen or more other agencies, yes. 

There's a few minor differences between them all, of course, but generally they're all either military branches designed to deal with superhumans or intelligence agencies designed to deal with superhumans. In the broad strokes, groups like the DEO (or the DMA, or the.....) operate like the FBI while groups like Argus (and the Human Defense Corps, and the....) operate like branches of the military.

The entire spy corner of the DCU has been a poorly defined mess since forever and one of the first things Bendis agreed to do was provide some much-needed consistency, but all he got to do was his opening salvo with Leviathan before DC was thrown into chaos, so while all those redundant groups are gone, the spy corner is still an ill-defined mess. Rumor is Bendis will be doing his next Leviathan story after all, so maybe this will get fixed after all. Eventually.




> Nighwing ain't gettin no spin-off. They'll go with redhood, batgirl or robin first. But whatever nightwing's a dead end Dick! Dick would be better off going to robin or agent 37. Nightwings a waste of time.


Not that I'm saying there *won't* be a Red Hood or Batgirl spinoff, but the only people who thought Nightwing didn't have any potential were fired from DC this past summer (and good riddance). From what I've heard Dick quickly became the unofficial mascot of the DCU app, with his face plastered on everything, and his transition to Nightwing was well received (I don't have the app and have never watched the shows so I have no personal opinion on it). When it comes to larger media, the people involved seem to recognize Dick's value far more than the fools who've been screwing up the comics in recent years.

Anyone who thinks Nightwing isn't viable is simply thinking too small. Dude has a larger media profile that goes back further than most A-listers, and even as Nightwing has featured prominently in larger media for decades.

----------


## Godlike13

Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.

----------


## Ascended

> Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.


I'd think it more likely that Titans is cancelled and Dick moves into a show of his own. From the clips I've seen (which isn't much to go on) Titans isn't exactly high quality television, and DC wouldn't lose much (if anything) by dropping the characters and team setting and just focusing on Dick. He seems to be the best part of it anyway.

I'm not saying it'll happen or anything, and I got no real dog in this fight since I don't watch the show anyway, but solo characters have been spun out of ensemble shows before. I doubt the odds are very good but it doesn't seem *impossible* either.

----------


## Godlike13

They seem happy with Titans so far. I think they even renewed it for a 4th season already. Spin offs happens sure, but like the show or not to spin off Dick would cut the legs out from under the show.

----------


## Ascended

They do seem satisfied with its performance (last I knew). I think it was even one of the top streaming shows it's first season? I'm not saying it's a failure, simply that the clips I've seen haven't impressed me personally. 

And I'm not saying they'll cut the legs off the show, I'm saying it's not impossible that when it ends (for whatever reason it ends) they might move Dick to a show of his own (a continuation or reboot or whatever). He's essentially the star you say? Kinda proves that the people behind the camera recognize his value. 

I'm just disagreeing with the notion that nobody would even *consider* using him as a solo act. That's some Dan Didio thinking, but Didio is gone folks, and he can't hurt us anymore.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

Ngl I could go with Titans being cancelled and NW getting his own series. I’m sure they could invest the CGI money towards even more enhanced scenes and giving the show better quality in terms of writing and filming

----------


## Rac7d*

> Why would Titans spin off Nightwing when he’s pretty much the lead of the show.


Becuase Tim is coming

Which makes the Teen Titans can finally come together with beast boy and raven. I am curious to see how Barbra Gordon  reoccurring appearance next season goes. I find it incredible that we will have comics that may mirror something happening in a larger media. The way manga does with anime

----------


## AmiMizuno

Why can't Dick just go off on his own no group or anything. We already have so many groups already. Dick can easily just do his own thing. If he finds people along away than yea they can just be one of the people who join his supporting cast but with how Dc is there shouldn't be any new groups

Circuses aren’t completely die just traveling ones. At least in the USA. If anything many people love acrobats. So Dick can easily still just be a in something like magic acts or working somewhere that can make him travel. I knew he can work in casinos or something else that can help him travel. 

Plus even if Joker blew it up doesn’t mean it can’t be retcon. Dc isn’t one right now for continuity

----------


## Badou

The Titans show is terrible, but it gets good ratings because of the name brand I guess. So a spinoff feels unlikely for Dick if he is still stuck leading the show.

I thought the series should have just been a Nightwing series from the start, but I don't think Dick will be the one with a spinoff if that ever happens. Red Hood is probably the best bet as he is kind of the breakout character on the show that has generated the most attention. If they do any kind of spinoff it would probably be set in Gotham too as that is what they are setting up this season with moving the team there, and Bruce in this universe is kind of old. The actor playing him is 60. So if on the small chance they give Dick a spinoff it would be him in Gotham taking over for Bruce probably.


Also on a random note I'm not a big fan of the bird head on Nightwing' costume in the comics I think. Every time I see it I keep thinking it is an art error, lol.

----------


## Digifiend

> And circuses are dead


Really? Never heard of Cirque du Soleil?

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Really? 
> 
> Never heard of Cirque du Soleil?


Does Cirque Du Soleli travel?

----------


## Ascended

> The Titans show is terrible, but it gets good ratings because of the name brand I guess. So a spinoff feels unlikely for Dick if he is still stuck leading the show.


It definitely won't happen while Titans is still on the air. And it likely won't happen after it's over either, but there's a lot of solid business reasons, as well as creative ones, to give it serious consideration. 

And yknow, I'm not ready to give up on my optimism yet. We haven't really seen how the new DC will prioritize or how it'll interact with the larger media efforts. But things already look way better than they did six months ago, so who knows? I wouldn't bet money on it but maybe Dick will actually get a little quality attention. Crazier things have happened.

Just pointing it out; right now we know Dick is getting a solo title in March with a high-end writer. Aquaman, Supergirl, Shazam, Red Hood, Batgirl (any of them), and a whole host of other well known characters thus far have nothing. 




> Also on a random note I'm not a big fan of the bird head on Nightwing' costume in the comics I think. Every time I see it I keep thinking it is an art error, lol.


I support the bird emblem purely for marketing purposes, but I think I agree; the chevron seems a stronger design choice. And I tend to dislike the chevron-with-a-bird-head versions they sometimes do.

----------


## Konja7

I really like Tom Taylor writing in general, but I'm not so sure he is high-end writer.

His elseworld comics where he use all DC Universe sell a lot. However, sales of Suicide Squad's floppies were pretty low.


I agree that DC seems to have more expectatives for Nightwing than other characters. Although I think they put Barbara in Nightwing comic (and it seems to be the only place where she is Batgirl), because they really hope this will increase sales.

----------


## AmiMizuno

I think they should have picked one or the other. They should punch her to be oracle not Batgirl. They can just have her put the Oracle logo as a mask. And keep the Batgirl costume similar. I wouldn't keep the Bat logo design just the costume.

I'm curious why they seem to have more faith in Nightwing than Babs and Nightwing. Both are great characters.

----------


## Drako

> I really like Tom Taylor writing in general, but I'm not so sure he is high-end writer.
> 
> His elseworld comics where he use all DC Universe sell a lot. However, sales of Suicide Squad's floppies were pretty low.
> 
> I agree that DC seems to have more expectatives for Nightwing than other characters. Although I think they put Barbara in Nightwing comic (and it seems to be the only place where she is Batgirl), because they really hope this will increase sales.


Nightwing sells pretty well by himself when he isn't stuck as Ric Grayson. And the hype surrounding the announcement of this creative team was so good that he was even trending on Twitter. Sales won't be a issue. Even if it only sells a lot in the first issue, it'll probably sustain around 25 to 30 k regularly like he was doing before the Ric mess.

The only time his sales started to decline above 18k was with the Ric Grayson\Dan Jurgens combo and that was completely DC's fault.

----------


## Konja7

> Nightwing sells pretty well by himself when he isn't stuck as Ric Grayson. And the hype surrounding the announcement of this creative team was so good that he was even trending on Twitter. Sales won't be a issue. Even if it only sells a lot in the first issue, it'll probably sustain around 25 to 30 k regularly like he was doing before the Ric mess.
> 
> The only time his sales started to decline above 18k was with the Ric Grayson\Dan Jurgens combo and that was completely DC's fault.


Honestly, even without Ric mess, I'm not totally sure Nightwing sales wouldn't fall under 20K for this time. The comic market was pretty horrible at this time.

That said, Nightwing (even with the Ric mess) is a better seller than Batgirl comic. When Batgirl sold better than Nightwing, it usually was due to popular variant covers for Batgirl.

----------


## Godlike13

Ric was done in an attempt to buck that trend. It wouldn't have taken much to keep it above 20k, but instead they came up Ric sending its through its floor and recruited sub 20k creators. And being a better seller then a book who's character was mostly ignored and pushed to side, receiving very little creator support, isn't a good benchmark. All it took was a new costume for Batgirl to sell better than Nightwing for a decent while. Now im excited about the creative team, but they are starting at the bottom. The numbers aren't going to boom up on the title. They'll probably get a bounce for a time, but its not gonna be crazy. It sucks they didn't do a relaunch to put this creative team in a better position, it also sucks they let Jurgens deflate any help his return might have had, but what can you do. We can only hope DC curbs their expectations and affords them the same leeway they frustratingly did Ric's creators.

----------


## Konja7

> Ric was done in an attempt to buck that trend. It wouldn't have taken much to keep it above 20k, but instead they came up Ric sending its through its floor and recruited sub 20k creators. And being a better seller then a book who's character was mostly ignored and pushed to side, receiving very little creator support, isn't a good benchmark. All it took was a new costume for Batgirl to sell better than Nightwing for a decent while. Now im excited about the creative team, but they are starting at the bottom. The numbers aren't going to boom up on the title. They'll probably get a bounce for a time, but its not gonna be crazy. It sucks they didn't do a relaunch to put this creative team in a better position, it also sucks they let Jurgens deflate any help his return might have had, but what can you do. We can only hope DC curbs their expectations and affords them the same leeway they frustratingly did Ric's creators.


I don't think the change of Batgirl suit was the only reason why Batgirl sold better than Nightwing at the time. 

The variant cover of Joshua Middleton seems to be another reason (the sales of Batgirl fall when it doesn't have that variant cover).

----------


## AmiMizuno

You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?

----------


## Godlike13

No. DC wouldn’t let that happen, and if it did it would be seen as a failure in managing Batman.

----------


## AmiMizuno

Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.

----------


## Digifiend

> Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.


The younger characters can easily have three team books: Titans, Teen Titans and Young Justice. The problem is solo books. Only Dick has one. Though I don't see why Wally can't have one too.

Which office is Titans usually in? Superman's? I know YJ was Superman's because Bendis was the writer of both and all of the original Wonder Comics had a Superman appearance in some form.

----------


## Drako

> You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?


Maybe for one special issue, but there is no solo hero can outsell Batman for a long period of time.




> Happy Holidays, @DCComics  and Nightwing fans!
> @Bruno_Redondo_F, @fxstudiocolor, @jesswchen and I will see you in 2021! 
> @thedcnation.




https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...846721/photo/1

----------


## Aahz

> Which is why I wish Nightwing and The Titans had their own editor. I know that one reason why they don't is he has one book and so do they but that can easily be fix. Like Dick Grayson having a teamup comic with different heroes and a comic with Wally. The Titans also could get spinoffs. Very easy. Dick can easily be a competitor.


With the current sales numbers of Nightwing and Titans (or at least the ones we now from before the pandemic) it is unlikely, that any spinoff could last as an ongoing.
They can do occasional one shots or minis, but ongoing are not really an viable option.

----------


## AmiMizuno

True. I just think maybe it would do some Good expand Nightwing out. Okay so the Judge in Nightwing is a supernatural being corrected? Maybe Dick should have a few more supernatural enemies? I think it would be cool if a fracture part of the court of owls was more of a cult that wanted to live forever

----------


## Konja7

It seems Future State: Nightwing issues will be included in Future State: Next Batman trade.

----------


## Drako



----------


## AmiMizuno

Wait isn't there a Black Label happening?

----------


## Ascended

> You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?


No way. I mean, at "some point in the future" you never know what might be big. Strictly speaking nothing's impossible. You go back in time far enough and the highest selling book is X-Men, or Superman, or Captain Marvel (Shazam), or FF, or whatever, and there have been stretches of time when Batman didn't sell very well. So at "some point in the future" maybe Batman's run as the top hero ends and through some impossible-to-predict contrivance Nightwing has taken his place in the sales rankings. 

But no, realistically speaking that's not gonna happen. 

And a merry christmas to all of you. Or at least to those of you who celebrate the holiday. To the rest of you, same sentiment but applied to your particular traditions!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Digifiend

I think Future State Robin Eternal's preview just spoiled how FS Nightwing ends.
https://aiptcomics.com/2020/12/25/dc...bin-eternal-1/
*spoilers:*
Dick is "ranting and raving in Arkham". WTF?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Godlike13

Arkham is abandoned and becomes his base in FS.

Apparently,
*spoilers:*
Nightwing was placed in Arkham Asylum on "A-Day" but escaped, is leading a Resistance against the Magistrate. TT also takes place after his series so.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Fergus

Happy holidays Everyone

----------


## AmiMizuno

Interesting. Doesn’t NW technically have a base? Like his home or all around Bludhaven. What would a good base for him be. I wonder where Babs is in Nightwing's FS. Many think he somehow lead the killing of the TT because he became Deathstroke

----------


## Godlike13

> Interesting. Doesn’t NW technically have a base? Like his home or all around Bludhaven. What would a good base for him be. I wonder where Babs is in Nightwing's FS. Many think he somehow lead the killing of the TT because he became Deathstroke


Nightwing has nothing right now. He was living on the street as Ric, and that is still where he's at more or less. The new team will have to reestablish all that now. And Babs is probably the damsel for the Batgirls. Cause Oracle is so important and all that, lol.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> Nightwing has nothing right now. He was living on the street as Ric, and that is still where he's at more or less. The new team will have to reestablish all that now. And Babs is probably the damsel for the Batgirls. Cause Oracle is so important and all that, lol.


True.Has Ric I think he destroyed all the bases. I mean it depends with Babs. She generally doesn't always need saving

----------


## Digifiend

That's a plot hole. Yes, Ric did destroy one of his bases - four costumes survived which were claimed by the three cops and firefighter who became the Nightwings team. But how did he even remember that base when he was supposed to have amnesia? So, isn't it possible he did forget others?

He will have definitely lost wherever he was living before he was shot though, as he certainly wasn't paying the bills while he was Ric! Presumably Bruce cleared the accommodation out, which is why he had the Nightwing costume to return to him when he got his memory back during Joker War.

----------


## AmiMizuno

> That's a plot hole. Yes, Ric did destroy one of his bases - four costumes survived which were claimed by the three cops and firefighter who became the Nightwings team. But how did he even remember that base when he was supposed to have amnesia? So, isn't it possible he did forget others?
> 
> He will have definitely lost wherever he was living before he was shot though, as he certainly wasn't paying the bills while he was Ric! Presumably Bruce cleared the accommodation out, which is why he had the Nightwing costume to return to him when he got his memory back during Joker War.


Well there are cases where certain things a person with amnesia can remember certain things. So maybe he remembers some things. Which is a plot holes

----------


## 9th.

> You guys think that Nightwing can outsell Batman?


Not unless his series also has Batman in the title.

----------


## AmiMizuno

One thing that would help him is if he had his own editor or someone that will at least be appoint to help his book good. I think that person should also be head of TT.

----------


## bearman

I recognize that the Titans and it’s variants are valuable properties, but keeping Dick connected to them holds him back. He should always “be” a Titan, and a Bat, but neither should be his main identity. He should
 be spun off as a solo hero, like Flash or GL, and rightfully be accepted by the League (one lessbook for Bruce won’t matter to him). Anything outside of that is a seat at the kid’s table.

----------


## WonderNight

> I recognize that the Titans and it’s variants are valuable properties, but keeping Dick connected to them holds him back. He should always “be” a Titan, and a Bat, but neither should be his main identity. Ould be spun off as a solo hero, like Flash or GL, and rightfully be accepted by the League (one lessbook for Bruce won’t matter to him). Anything outside of that is a seat at the kid’s table.


I agree but man do people love there dixson and NTT nostalgia. The way I see forward for nightwing is as a global espionage hero.

----------


## Drako

New interview:

https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylo...atus-for-dick/

----------


## Claude

> New interview:
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylo...atus-for-dick/


Ha! I adore him utterly disowning the Death Metal "marriage".

----------


## Godlike13

I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.

----------


## Avi

> I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.


I wouldn't mind a "pat on the head" scene between Babs and Dick.  :Wink: 

What he says sounds good and I like that that scene from last tales isn't canon.

----------


## cc008

> I’m excited. Says the right kind of things, so I hope he delivers. I know people like his Deceased but my favorite thing from Taylor was his All New Wolverine.


All New Wolverine was so good. One of the biggest reasons I'm excited for his Nightwing.

----------


## WonderNight

Well im not the biggest fan of this status quo (please don't make him a cop) but I hope it's good and fans enjoy it.

----------


## Godlike13

I think a mayoral campaign is what he’s hinting at.

----------


## Frontier

> New interview:
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/tom-taylo...atus-for-dick/


So far Taylor's been saying all the right things, and he's citing the best influences. 

I don't think anyone was expecting that "marriage" to be legit.

----------


## Badou

Him building Dick's character around Bludhaven will eventually fail, but we've been over that already. So no need to get into all that again. I only hope that the story eventually branches outside of Bludhaven but so far it doesn't seem like he has any plans to focus on Dick outside that city which kind of sucks.

----------


## Claude

> Him building Dick's character around Bludhaven will eventually fail, but we've been over that already. So no need to get into all that again. I only hope that the story eventually branches outside of Bludhaven but so far it doesn't seem like he has any plans to focus on Dick outside that city which kind of sucks.


I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.

Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.

----------


## 9th.

I like everything  I've heard from Taylor, I'm also a HUGE fan of ANW. I hope he knocks it out the park. No more bland stories and bat derailing for Nightwing please.

----------


## Riv86672

> I like everything  I've heard from Taylor, I'm also a HUGE fan of ANW. I hope he knocks it out the park. No more bland stories and bat derailing for Nightwing please.


Heck yeah, this sounds like the Dick I’ve been wanting for years. Back in Blüdhaven and doing his own thing. The only thing missing is Bridget Clancy, but I’m digging the Barbara angle regardless.

----------


## Godlike13

> I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.
> 
> Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.


Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.

----------


## 9th.

> Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.


Unfortunately he said it is about a lost corrupted city which is disappointing, I was hoping we could get away from that. It's so boring  :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

> Unfortunately he said it is about a lost corrupted city which is disappointing, I was hoping we could get away from that. It's so boring


LoL, ya. Im seeing things too i guess. Oh well. What can you do. Hopefully they make it work. Still lots of bits that sounds good nonetheless.

----------


## Badou

> I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.
> 
> Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.





> Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.


"What he chooses to do with this will demonstrate how different he is from Bruce Wayne. This isn't about Gotham. *This is about Blüdhaven*. *This is about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear* and calling out for a hero. This is about a hero stepping out of the shadows to answer the call and to push back against the darkness as a positive, entertaining, compassionate force for good."

He's building the run around Bludhaven and it is clear he is just using the old Dixon version given the lost and corrupted comment. It feels completely unoriginal to me. Like the worst aspects of Bludhaven, but it is what it is. My bitching won't change anything. It feels like the run is going to be stuck there for at least its first arc or two probably. So at least a year. 

Edit: Oh looks like you already saw it, haha

As for the whole A-list comment thing, it is the same stuff that every Nightwing writer has said. Higgins and Seeley said the exact same thing. So I don't put a ton of value in that. I'm pretty down on the concept behind this run overall, even though I think the creative team is pretty talented, but my only real hope now is that the run doesn't get dragged into Tynion's Batman stuff. I don't expect Dick to ever be A-list now, but he obviously will never be looked at as A-list if his own book and character keep getting derailed by Batman's own book.

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## Godlike13

Baby steps. Even just a solid consistent run would go a long way right now. He doesn’t have to actually make him A-list, thats beyond just one creator, but that being how he is choosing to see him is a comfort given how guys like Abnett, Lobdell, and Jurgens have been his architect for these past years. Guys who didn't see him as anything more then Batman's bitchboy or a throwaway mid tier character. Its not A-list or bust, it never really has been and doesn't even really need to be. But respect the sell. Give a shit about how your lead looks.

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## Avi

I think the A-List talk seems more serious because of the logo change. It's a small but powerful detail.




> I'd have thought that "it's not about Bludhaven" would have piqued your interest! I'd glad he's not trying to pitch the city as an integral part of Dick's psyche or anything.
> 
> Also, by way of overthinking, interesting that he doesn't mention "Grayson" at all. Seeley gets a namecheck as an inspiration for the Rebirth run, but King doesn't, and his "Dick outside the influence of Batman" examples are leading the Justice League and the Titans, with nothing about Spyral.


The writers he mentioned were a response to how Babs' and Dick's relationship will be portrayed and how he was influenced. King never really spoke about their relationship, so I'd guess that's why he has been left out while Simone has been mentioned. She isn't really a Nightwing writer. Of course, you are still onto something. I hope Spyral will enter the picture again or at least the Grayson characters but it sadly seems like wishful thinking at this point.

Speaking about Spyral: Back when Event Leviathan was happening I heard Dick was supposed to be in it before the whole Ric thing struck, is there any truth to that and if so, do you think Dick might appear in some form if Spyral is back for that Checkmate/Leviathan 2 thing Bendis is planning?

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## Badou

I don't expect Dick to get involved in anything Leviathan related since he wasn't involved in the first series. I imagine Bendis is just going to focus on the characters he has already used for it rather than introduce Dick and then have him play any kind of role in it. That's why guess at least. 

Also going off this new Taylor interview I guess Dick and Babs aren't dating if he is going to ignore all the Death Metal Special issue? I really hope he doesn't do more of the "will they/won't they" crap that killed my interest in their relationship. That has me a bit worried.

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## Godlike13

> The writers he mentioned were a response to how Babs' and Dick's relationship will be portrayed and how he was influenced. King never really spoke about their relationship, so I'd guess that's why he has been left out while Simone has been mentioned. She isn't really a Nightwing writer. Of course, you are still onto something. I hope Spyral will enter the picture again or at least the Grayson characters but it sadly seems like wishful thinking at this point.
> 
> Speaking about Spyral: Back when Event Leviathan was happening I heard Dick was supposed to be in it before the whole Ric thing struck, is there any truth to that and if so, do you think Dick might appear in some form if Spyral is back for that Checkmate/Leviathan 2 thing Bendis is planning?


King spoke about their relationship. Dudes a romantic, remember how he had Dick calling Babs his home. I think he preferred Dick and and Babs more so then Seeley, who i think was frustrated by Dick and Babs.

And yes Dick was suppose to at least make small appearance but was ultimately swapped out with Huntress because of Ric. Not sure if it was going to be anything more then that scene though.

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## Frontier

> Also going off this new Taylor interview I guess Dick and Babs aren't dating if he is going to ignore all the Death Metal Special issue? I really hope he doesn't do more of the "will they/won't they" crap that killed my interest in their relationship. That has me a bit worried.


I mean, the clarification was that they're not treating the "marriage" as canon, which makes sense, but they might still be dating.

It's never quite been clear exactly what the relationship status is between the two beyond being crime-fighting partners but the influences he cited makes me think they'll be each others focal relationship in the run.

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## Badou

> I mean, the clarification was that they're not treating the "marriage" as canon, which makes sense, but they might still be dating.
> 
> It's never quite been clear exactly what the relationship status is between the two beyond being crime-fighting partners but the influences he cited makes me think they'll be each others focal relationship in the run.


After 9 years of will they/won't they I don't know if leaving it vague will work anymore though. How the two have been revolving around each other since the reboot has been really bad on both of them.

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## Frontier

> After 9 years of will they/won't they I don't know if leaving it vague will work anymore though. How the two have been revolving around each other since the reboot has been really bad on both of them.


Well, we don't know how vague it will be in the actual book. Maybe if someone actually asked Taylor he'd clarify it directly (or maybe he'd still be evasive? I dunno). 

I just have a hard time seeing them as partners together in a book and not knocking boots at some point and he cited writers who leaned into the romance aspect of the characters at one point or another. I would think having them in a book together and not needing to worry about Babs having a solo would be more conducive towards successfully pairing them together.

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## Godlike13

I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.

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## Frontier

> I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.


I'm hoping that means Babs in skirts  :Wink: .

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## Badou

> Well, we don't know how vague it will be in the actual book. Maybe if someone actually asked Taylor he'd clarify it directly (or maybe he'd still be evasive? I dunno). 
> 
> I just have a hard time seeing them as partners together in a book and not knocking boots at some point and he cited writers who leaned into the romance aspect of the characters at one point or another. I would think having them in a book together and not needing to worry about Babs having a solo would be more conducive towards successfully pairing them together.


There is also the issue of what their past relationship even is too. Continuity is a complete mess, but if the "everything is canon" thing holds true then does that mean their prior engagement is canon? If that is true then you can't really ease into a romance or keep it vague when the two were already engaged, right? Or have the two even dated before or even slept together? Throughout the New 52 it wasn't clear what their past was. It always just went back to the timing never being right or some excuse whenever it felt like their past came up. I feel like there needs to be some clarification on it all, but it is one of those things that I don't really expect them to want to deal with and prefer to keep it vague unfortunately so they can drag out and tease a romance like they have been.

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## Frontier

> There is also the issue of what their past relationship even is too. Continuity is a complete mess, but if the "everything is canon" thing holds true then does that mean their prior engagement is canon? If that is true then you can't really ease into a romance or keep it vague when the two were already engaged, right? Or have the two even dated before or even slept together? Throughout the New 52 it wasn't clear what their past was. It always just went back to the timing never being right or some excuse whenever it felt like their past came up. I feel like there needs to be some clarification on it all, but it is one of those things that I don't really expect them to want to deal with and prefer to keep it vague unfortunately so they can drag out and tease a romance like they have been.


I think you can keep it vague enough that they have a long and storied romantic history and connection with each other that you can play into with them as partners. 

I think there is less of a need to keep them apart or not address the relationship when they're in the same book as each other. There's no Batgirl solo getting in the way.

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## Badou

> I’m guessing she’s his campaign manager.


Oh God, please don't tell me they are going to go down the Batman Beyond future of Dick being mayor of Bludhaven. That would be my worst nightmare, lol.

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## Godlike13

He might just run in attempt to see what the deal with Zucco is. Which is usually his motivation for every job he takes.

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## Claude

> Actually he said it is about Bludhaven. But he did also say its not about a lost, corrupted city ruled by fear and calling out for a hero. So hopefully they at least avoid the worst parts.






> "What he chooses to do with this will demonstrate how different he is from Bruce Wayne. This isn't about Gotham. *This is about Blüdhaven*.


Ha! I'm not going to lie to you, fellas, I've been drinking heavily - I entirely misread that bit of the interview! Thanks for the polite and non-judgey correction - now to drink a lot of water....

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## Ascended

> Baby steps. Even just a solid consistent run would go a long way right now. He don't have to actually make him A-list, thats beyond just one creator, but that being how he is choosing to see him is a comfort given how guys like Abnett, Lobdell, and Jurgens have been his architect for these past years. Guys who didn't see him as anything more then Batman's bitchboy or a throwaway mid tier character. Its not A-list or bust, it never really has been and doesn't even really need to be. But respect the sell. Give a shit about how your lead looks.


This. Nobody becomes A-list overnight, especially if we're talking about the "real" A-list, the heroes everybody on earth recognizes and knows a few details about. Hell, it's not really something that's even achievable, at least in the foreseeable future, unless DC stumbles upon a "perfect storm" moment.

But writing him in his own book like he's an A-lister? Putting in real effort to build his world up, and seeing that effort continue? Those are the first steps to a consistent, respected, strong IP (and also basic writing, which DC often forgets). And if that consistency and respect and effort remain long enough? Then the A-list discussion becomes a lot less about Dick's potential and a lot more about his actual value.

Anyway, the Bludhaven thing isn't the direction I'd run with. I'd have Dick live there, but not be tied to it the same way Bruce is tied to Gotham or Clark is to Metropolis. But I'm not writing the book, and I'll judge it on its own merits. It's not surprising that DC is still intent on using the city; it's a staple of the genre, and we ourselves have discussed the various boxes a character needs to check in order to (traditionally) become A-list and a home city is almost always on that list.

I'm still more than willing to see where this goes, even if it's not looking like the kind of high-concept, wanderlust-filled neo-Silver Age romp I'd write myself. It's not "my" direction but I'll take a strong, well done, quality street level Nightwing over more of the crap DC has given us. The font change to the title, getting one of their bigger remaining talents on the book....these are good signs and while I have neither forgiven nor forgotten what DC's done to us, I'm willing to give the new regime the opportunity to make up for past mistakes.

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## Hypestyle

I just saw the "Return of the Caped Crusaders" cartoon movie.  It was a great feature of the original Robin portrayal, especially with Burt Ward as the voice.
I wonder what it would be like to have a Teen Titans comic or cartoon feature with that version of Robin and retro style portrayal of the other original Titans.

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## Frontier

> I just saw the "Return of the Caped Crusaders" cartoon movie.  It was a great feature of the original Robin portrayal, especially with Burt Ward as the voice.
> I wonder what it would be like to have a Teen Titans comic or cartoon feature with that version of Robin and retro style portrayal of the other original Titans.


They've made a few nods to something to that effect in _Teen Titans Go!._

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