# Comics  > Batman >  Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

## Mockingbird

He divides a lot of opinions, but let's face it; sometimes you've just got to love Jason Todd!

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## JasonTodd428

I can't help loving the guy myself. Favorite antihero and favorite Robin.

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## E.Nigma

I remember him when he was a Dick-clone from before *CoIE*. 



Then he became annoying when they tried to make him as anti-Dick as they could _after CoIE_.

But, I've decided to give him a fair shot these days, and I just ordered Vol. 1 of the RHatO tpb from barnesandnoble.com the other day (less than $10.00!), so we'll see what I think of him after that.

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## Kurisu

> IBut, I've decided to give him a fair shot these days, and I just ordered Vol. 1 of the RHatO tpb from barnesandnoble.com the other day (less than $10.00!), so we'll see what I think of him after that.


And the holy gospel of Todd spreads. Let the light in, brother, don't fight it.  :Smile:

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## JasonTodd428

We must spread the gospel of Todd to all corners of the globe.

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## Tony Stark

> We must spread the gospel of Todd to all corners of the globe.


Hell yes. I had made the last appreciation thread for him. He has been my Robin and my favorite character in the Batman universe. I have every book he has ever appeared in. Can't wait for Lobdell to get back on the book. Let's all spread the gospel and LET THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME!

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## Tony Stark

double post.

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## Teacosy

I love JT, as I do all the sidekicks, but I just can't get into RHatO. Read it during the DotF arc and for a few issues after that but couldn't get into it. Anyone else feel like this?

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## LoneNecromancer

Throwing in some art.

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## Mockingbird

> Throwing in some art.


Ah, Jason and the people who were absolutely not growing on him at all, nope. I love their friendships so much.

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## JasonTodd428

> Hell yes. I had made the last appreciation thread for him. He has been my Robin and my favorite character in the Batman universe. I have every book he has ever appeared in. Can't wait for Lobdell to get back on the book. Let's all spread the gospel and LET THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME!


Mine to. I'm still working at getting every book he's appeared in though. I'm very excited to see Lobdell back as well. The book has been a mess since he left IMHO.

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## K. Jones

> Mine to. I'm still working at getting every book he's appeared in though. I'm very excited to see Lobdell back as well. The book has been a mess since he left IMHO.


Agreed.

I mean it started going downhill with the Joker tie-ins, but Tynion's stuff just didn't cut it. The art was inconsistent and sometimes just gross. The cast was actually awesome, so the fact that the story we got out of that cast, and the elite of the elite of the Assassins League, was pretty sad. Maybe they'll show up in Tomasi's story and kick total ass.

He was cooler when he was trying to kill aliens.

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## E.Nigma

> Mine to. I'm still working at getting every book he's appeared in though. I'm very excited to see Lobdell back as well. The book has been a mess since he left IMHO.


Has there been (or will there be) a future "sticky" with every appearance he's had (and where it's most recently been collected)?

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## JasonTodd428

> Has there been (or will there be) a future "sticky" with every appearance he's had (and where it's most recently been collected)?


I would like to see that myself but if I'm not mistaken not very much of the older stuff has been collected even. There are a few trades out there for some of the bigger stories like _The Cult_, _Death in the Family_, _Under the Red Hood_, _Red Hood:Lost Days_and I'm certain his appearances in the pre-reboot _Batman and Robin_ have been collected in the trades for that title. (I have the entire run in floppies though so I'm not interested in the trades) Other stories he was in might be in individual trades for the titles that they apply to and there are also trades for Red Hood and the Outlaws of course but most of the rest is all in individual back issues that for some reasons are really difficult to come by. I had most of the issues back in the day but lost them when a couple of my long boxes got lost during a move.

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## Mr. Mastermind

Jason's probably the most underrated Batman character out there.

He's been handled terribly in the past, but the New 52 version is an awesome mix of hero and badass.

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## JasonTodd428

> Jason's probably the most underrated Batman character out there.
> 
> He's been handled terribly in the past, but the New 52 version is an awesome mix of hero and badass.


Yeah, I agree. Horribly underrated and handled terribly by writers with no clear idea of what to do with him. I like this iteration of the character better. At least he can be somewhat of a hero underneath all that badassary.

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## LoneNecromancer

> Has there been (or will there be) a future "sticky" with every appearance he's had (and where it's most recently been collected)?


Check Comicvine, I think that has a list of every issue every character has ever been in.

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## lorec

I think Jason Todd is underrated as well.  He is a character I didn't know much about until the Batman: Under the Red Hood DVD, but after that, I was hooked.  As for the comic book, I'm not feeling all of the outer space stuff they have going on.  I've stuck with the book because I like the character a lot and I hope Lobdell does some really great stuff with him.  

And as a side note, I think all of the Bat books suffer some from having to be included in the Bat crossovers.

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## JasonTodd428

I don't mind the outer space adventures myself. I like that Jason goes on these crazy adventures and that they can be just about any type of one. Keeps the book from getting stale in my opinion. I do agree with you though about the crossovers. Since Batman Eternal is including most everyone in the Batverse I hope it means that there will not be any other crossovers going on while it runs its course.

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## beetlebum

> Yeah, I agree. Horribly underrated and handled terribly by writers with no clear idea of what to do with him. I like this iteration of the character better. At least he can be somewhat of a hero underneath all that badassary.


I like *Under The Red Hood/Lost Days* Jason best. I'm also very partial to his run as Robin, as he wasn't as bad as everyone who doesn't know much about him, tends to assume he was.

I can't really get into the *Red Hood and The Outlaws* Jason no matter how hard I try. But I will say that I do like Kenneth Rocafort's art and the way he draws Jason in the book.

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## Mockingbird

> I don't mind the outer space adventures myself. I like that Jason goes on these crazy adventures and that they can be just about any type of one. Keeps the book from getting stale in my opinion. I do agree with you though about the crossovers. Since Batman Eternal is including most everyone in the Batverse I hope it means that there will not be any other crossovers going on while it runs its course.


I really enjoy the space adventures. I like that it shows that the characters have range, and just because they usually work away from space, doesn't mean they can't adapt. Plus, anything that includes Starfire giving the orders is a plus.

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## Orpheus

Yeah super underrated...no doubt. Honestly don't understand why he is not a major player in the bat-verse. He totally kicks ass and has the attitude to make a dent in Gotham crime. Unfortunately, Batman comics stopped being street level and more epic a long time ago, and that means characters like Jason have to take a back seat

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## Kid A

> Yeah super underrated...no doubt. Honestly don't understand why he is not a major player in the bat-verse. He totally kicks ass and has the attitude to make a dent in Gotham crime. Unfortunately, Batman comics stopped being street level and more epic a long time ago, and that means characters like Jason have to take a back seat


He's come along way though, see his role in Inc.  

I agree with everyone that Jason is underrated.  Even when he was Robin, he had a really interesting set-up, and there was a lot of potential to see Batman have to raise someone who was born in the slums and had real issues to contrast Bruce's privileged background.  It would have been a really interesting character journey if he wasn't killed off.

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## Hellpop

Here's hoping Pfeifer's run on RH&TO delivers us some good JT moments. i enjoyed issue 30

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## javi150190

THIS IS A MEME?!

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hey fellow Jason's fans!

Man, is so great to see such positive response towards him. He's my all-time favorite DC character and is always nice to see him being treated so well. Here's for RHATO lasting a loooong time and he having a great role on Eternal (truth be told, I've been pretty underwhelmed by it)

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## JasonTodd428

> Hey fellow Jason's fans!
> 
> Man, is so great to see such positive response towards him. He's my all-time favorite DC character and is always nice to see him being treated so well. Here's for RHATO lasting a loooong time and he having a great role on Eternal (truth be told, I've been pretty underwhelmed by it)


Nice to see you here. I also hope he has a good role in Eternal and that RHatO continues for a good long while yet.

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## oasis1313

I'd say that clawing his way out of his own grave means that Jason has paid his dues.  He deserves his popularity.

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## dupersuper



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## dropkickjake

> I think Jason Todd is underrated as well.  He is a character I didn't know much about until the Batman: Under the Red Hood DVD, but after that, I was hooked.  As for the comic book, I'm not feeling all of the outer space stuff they have going on.  I've stuck with the book because I like the character a lot and I hope Lobdell does some really great stuff with him.  
> 
> And as a side note, I think all of the Bat books suffer some from having to be included in the Bat crossovers.





> I don't mind the outer space adventures myself. I like that Jason goes on these crazy adventures and that they can be just about any type of one. Keeps the book from getting stale in my opinion. I do agree with you though about the crossovers. Since Batman Eternal is including most everyone in the Batverse I hope it means that there will not be any other crossovers going on while it runs its course.


Speaking of the outerspace adventures, am I the only one that things RHatO would make an incredible galaxy spanning book on the regular? Jason, Roy, and Kory could be bounty hunters, but (mostly) only go after wanted criminals. It would allow for plenty of badassery, it could still have them toeing the line of "good guys," as they would be doing it as a profession rather than a "crusade" like Bruce and the rest of the family. It would essentially do for Jason the same thing that "Grayson" is doing for Dick: allowing him space from the crossovers, giving him a clear direction, and giving him his owl "realm" within the DCU.

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## JasonTodd428

> Speaking of the outerspace adventures, am I the only one that things RHatO would make an incredible galaxy spanning book on the regular? Jason, Roy, and Kory could be bounty hunters, but (mostly) only go after wanted criminals. It would allow for plenty of badassery, it could still have them toeing the line of "good guys," as they would be doing it as a profession rather than a "crusade" like Bruce and the rest of the family. It would essentially do for Jason the same thing that "Grayson" is doing for Dick: allowing him space from the crossovers, giving him a clear direction, and giving him his owl "realm" within the DCU.


I wouldn't mind that actually. I've enjoyed the space adventures a lot.

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## Kurisu

> Speaking of the outerspace adventures, am I the only one that things RHatO would make an incredible galaxy spanning book on the regular? Jason, Roy, and Kory could be bounty hunters, but (mostly) only go after wanted criminals. It would allow for plenty of badassery, it could still have them toeing the line of "good guys," as they would be doing it as a profession rather than a "crusade" like Bruce and the rest of the family. It would essentially do for Jason the same thing that "Grayson" is doing for Dick: allowing him space from the crossovers, giving him a clear direction, and giving him his owl "realm" within the DCU.


You aren't! I love that idea, even brought it up pre-CBR Flashpoint. Maybe have Amanda Waller (or whoever, really) proposition them with exoneration in exchange for collecting space bounties?

I mean, the title is basically Cowboy Bebop-lite already. Jason has Spike's cool as a cucumber disposition, Kori has Faye's memory loss (is that even still a thing??) and Roy, like Jet, is our comic relief with a barely touched upon back story. Throw in Crux, get Isabelle accidentally wrapped up in the shenanigans, cushion a slow burning story line with one/two issue non sequitur stories and there you have it.

Maybe they're hunting Lobo? The All-Caste? The Untitled? Komand'r and the Thirteen, whatever that is, assuming it hasn't been explored elsewhere? I don't know.  :Confused:

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## Kid A

> You aren't! I love that idea, even brought it up pre-CBR Flashpoint. Maybe have Amanda Waller (or whoever, really) proposition them with exoneration in exchange for collecting space bounties?
> 
> I mean, the title is basically Cowboy Bebop-lite already. Jason has Spike's cool as a cucumber disposition, Kori has Faye's memory loss (is that even still a thing??) and Roy, like Jet, is our comic relief with a barely touched upon back story. Throw in Crux, get Isabelle accidentally wrapped up in the shenanigans, cushion a slow burning story line with one/two issue non sequitur stories and there you have it.
> 
> Maybe they're hunting Lobo? The All-Caste? The Untitled? Komand'r and the Thirteen, whatever that is, assuming it hasn't been explored elsewhere? I don't know.


Not to mention, both Jet and Roy are tech guys.  Yeah, I made the Cowboy Bebop comparison a long time ago too, and wouldn't be surprised if that's where Lobdell got his ideas from. 

Though I'd probably just make them Earth-boud hunters, and go into space occasionally.

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## JasonTodd428

> You aren't! I love that idea, even brought it up pre-CBR Flashpoint. Maybe have Amanda Waller (or whoever, really) proposition them with exoneration in exchange for collecting space bounties?
> 
> I mean, the title is basically Cowboy Bebop-lite already. Jason has Spike's cool as a cucumber disposition, Kori has Faye's memory loss (is that even still a thing??) and Roy, like Jet, is our comic relief with a barely touched upon back story. Throw in Crux, get Isabelle accidentally wrapped up in the shenanigans, cushion a slow burning story line with one/two issue non sequitur stories and there you have it.
> 
> Maybe they're hunting Lobo? The All-Caste? The Untitled? Komand'r and the Thirteen, whatever that is, assuming it hasn't been explored elsewhere? I don't know.


I love your Cowboy Bebop comparasion. Man, now I'm going to have to pull that out to watch sometime soon. That could be an interesting direction to take it in. They could even have a few stories where they return to earth because one of their bounties fled there just to mix it up a little. I could really get into a title like that.

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## dropkickjake

Yeah, the cowboy bebop direction would make this a must buy for me, rather than a casual check it out from time to time that it is for me now. Plus, it would give the Batfamily a more sci-fi type title, which would make that line of books a bit more well rounded. I feel like DC in general is lacking in that area right now to be honest.

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## Mister BoMan

I grew up with Dick Grayson as Robin, but in the 80's got back with comics and loved the Jason Todd Robin. He is actually my favorite Robin.

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## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, the cowboy bebop direction would make this a must buy for me, rather than a casual check it out from time to time that it is for me now. Plus, it would give the Batfamily a more sci-fi type title, which would make that line of books a bit more well rounded. I feel like DC in general is lacking in that area right now to be honest.


Yeah, I wish DC had more in the way of sci-fi myself or at least something besides Lantern titles. Don't get me wrong I'm really enjoying a few titles there but I'd like something else as well.

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## HunterX

P00015.jpg


Dont get the hate :Confused:

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## EdwardNigma

I LOVED when they brought him back as an villain/anti-hero in Under the Red Hood but they either made him a weak villain or an even weaker hero/anti-hero since then. Go back to being against Batman and showing him why your method is better.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I LOVED when they brought him back as an villain/anti-hero in Under the Red Hood but they either made him a weak villain or an even weaker hero/anti-hero since then. Go back to being against Batman and showing him why your method is better.


You need to keep in mind than that direction was death on arrival since they'd never allowed Jason to off some of the major rogues making his whole argument pointless (I mean, Captain Nazi (?) was offered as an scapegoat on UTRH and he showed later on another title just fine)

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## Kingcrimsonprog

I wish there was a big "Legends of Jason Todd" book available, that reprinted highlights from his career as Robin.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Just found this AMAZING fanart on tumblr telling on broad strokes Jason's Pre52 story

http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/post/84787866403 Part 1
http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/post/84788074203 Part 2
http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/post/84788248503 Part 3
http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/post/84789069813 Part 4

Shame that Jason's N52 origin isn't clear, I'd love to see something like this about it.

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## Kid A

> You need to keep in mind than that direction was death on arrival since they'd never allowed Jason to off some of the major rogues making his whole argument pointless (I mean, Captain Nazi (?) was offered as an scapegoat on UTRH and he showed later on another title just fine)


Yeah unless Jason can actually cap the Joker, there's no point in exploring that direction.  

I like Spike Spiegel Jason more than Frank Castle Jason anyway.

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## JasonTodd428

> You need to keep in mind than that direction was death on arrival since they'd never allowed Jason to off some of the major rogues making his whole argument pointless (I mean, Captain Nazi (?) was offered as an scapegoat on UTRH and he showed later on another title just fine)


Yeah, Jason would never be allowed to cap the Joker of all people so it's pointless to keep him on that track. He'll never get anywhere with it and the stories would become played out pretty quickly. It was getting that way already before the reboot anyway so I'm glad the took him in a different direction with it.

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## ABH



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## ABH



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## ABH

For fun...

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## Daredevil is Legend

Words cannot describe how much I love this character I can't remember how many times i've defended him and Judd Winick from all the haters when he first returned. He's my favorite character from DC and he's the only reason I collect anything from DC. I hope one day he gets a solo I really don't like him doing Space adventures. I would love for Lobdell to write a Jason Todd solo And man he is so dangerous in the new 52 with all the new fighting upgrades and it's so rewarding as a fan to see him have his own universe of characters like the All Caste Essence and Ducra.

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## nepenthes

ABH's pic upthread made me think of this scene....pixie boots, ciggie butts and the jetty at sunrise....probably the greatest Jason moment of all time!



Which is of course a call back to the original 



Such a badarse

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## oasis1313

It feels like DC has lately been watering down Jason's badassedness.  Like him better as a black sheep.

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## Zainu

> It feels like DC has lately been watering down Jason's badassedness.  Like him better as a black sheep.


Yeah. From what I've seen of RHatO, n52 Jason is like a watered down pretty-boy version of what he used to be. Or...Dick with angst and guns.

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## oasis1313

> Yeah. From what I've seen of RHatO, n52 Jason is like a watered down pretty-boy version of what he used to be. Or...Dick with angst and guns.


Dick with guns.  That sums it up pretty well.  Since Dick is getting guns now, Jason will have to settle for just being Dick with a Mask.

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## Dzetoun

> It feels like DC has lately been watering down Jason's badassedness.  Like him better as a black sheep.





> Yeah. From what I've seen of RHatO, n52 Jason is like a watered down pretty-boy version of what he used to be. Or...Dick with angst and guns.





> Dick with guns.  That sums it up pretty well.  Since Dick is getting guns now, Jason will have to settle for just being Dick with a Mask.


Not really, although I understand why it can seem that way.  Neither Jason nor Bruce is the same in the New 52 as in the old continuity. It has taken DC some fits and starts, but we are getting to a Jason that is not nearly so extreme, but is marked more by sardonic demeanor and sometimes dangerous impulsiveness, and sometimes bursts of rage, than by madness. Bruce, for his part, is also less extreme, which is to say less rigid and messianic about his values and more accepting that other people might not see things his way, and might have good reason not to share his point of view.  His affection for Jason also runs much closer to the surface, to the point of being openly gentle and even loving with his black sheep (his affection for most people runs closer to the surface in the New 52, he's just a warmer person).

If you want to say that takes the edge off their personalities and makes their relationship more similar to others we know of, fair enough, but that scarcely turns Jason into Dick Grayson.  Also, I agree with others upthread that some kind of shift along these lines was necessary and probably inevitable. _Under the Red Hood_ was a powerful story, no doubt, but some aspects of the the story's presentation, together with the lack of a quick and effective follow-up, turned it into a strategic mistake, leaving the characters stuck in a web of difficult and divisive issues with no way forward. It is a sign of how big a mess things had become that it's taken nearly ten years, one formal reboot, and quite a bit of hand-waving and retconning to get this far.

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## Daredevil is Legend

Anybody want a Jason Todd solo? I know I do

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## JasonTodd428

> Not really, although I understand why it can seem that way.  Neither Jason nor Bruce is the same in the New 52 as in the old continuity. It has taken DC some fits and starts, but we are getting to a Jason that is not nearly so extreme, but is marked more by sardonic demeanor and sometimes dangerous impulsiveness, and sometimes bursts of rage, than by madness. Bruce, for his part, is also less extreme, which is to say less rigid and messianic about his values and more accepting that other people might not see things his way, and might have good reason not to share his point of view.  His affection for Jason also runs much closer to the surface, to the point of being openly gentle and even loving with his black sheep (his affection for most people runs closer to the surface in the New 52, he's just a warmer person).


I actually enjoy this version of both characters more than the previous ones who I felt were stuck in a rut that they could never escape because DC and writers would never allow them to escape from it. 




> If you want to say that takes the edge off their personalities and makes their relationship more similar to others we know of, fair enough, but that scarcely turns Jason into Dick Grayson.  Also, I agree with others upthread that some kind of shift along these lines was necessary and probably inevitable. _Under the Red Hood_ was a powerful story, no doubt, but some aspects of the the story's presentation, together with the lack of a quick and effective follow-up, turned it into a strategic mistake, leaving the characters stuck in a web of difficult and divisive issues with no way forward. It is a sign of how big a mess things had become that it's taken nearly ten years, one formal reboot, and quite a bit of hand-waving and retconning to get this far.


I think it's a fair assessment to make given what was happening in the previous continuity but I also have to wonder if DC was going to make an attempt at changing things within that continuity. The last time Jason was seen prior to the reboot he was going off to somewhere unknown with Scarlett and that somewhere was obviously far away from Gotham. There is also Morrison's Batman, Inc. to take into consideration. If I'm not much mistaken Morrison intended to redeem Jason in the story and that's why he was given the Wingman ID. (If I've somehow made a mistake in this let me know. I'm not a big Morrison fan but I thought I read that somewhere or other. No idea where now.)

In any case, the "pycho and angry" Jason Todd introduced in UtRH overstayed his welcome because no one wanted to try to do anything with him and no writer wanted to try to have him deal with his issues because they needed a reason to continue having him fume and rage at Bruce. Add to that the fact that DC would never allow Joker to be killed by anyone, not even Jason and thus a seemingly unending cycle began for Jason. 

There was no direct follow-up to the UtRH story, no clear direction for the character in it's aftermath, and in a way he has spent all of his second life in the shadow of the Bat in much the same way people say Dick Grayson has. Before the reboot he'd never been given a chance to grow as a character, never had any friends to call his own at least until Scarlett became his partner, never done anything away from Gotham nor anything not tied to his anger and PTSD over his death and resurrection. He's been running in circles for years. If toning down on some previous aspects of his character is what it takes to move the character beyond this nonsense and into a position that gives him a chance at some real character growth then I'm all for it. 

That doesn't, however, mean that I wouldn't have been just as happy to see more of Red Hood and Scarlett only that I'd grown tired of writer's telling the same exact story with Jason every single time they used him.

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## blackbolt396

The 2nd best Robin IMO.

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## Dzetoun

> I actually enjoy this version of both characters more than the previous ones who I felt were stuck in a rut that they could never escape because DC and writers would never allow them to escape from it.
> 
> In any case, the "pycho and angry" Jason Todd introduced in UtRH overstayed his welcome because no one wanted to try to do anything with him and no writer wanted to try to have him deal with his issues because they needed a reason to continue having him fume and rage at Bruce. Add to that the fact that DC would never allow Joker to be killed by anyone, not even Jason and thus a seemingly unending cycle began for Jason. 
> 
> There was no direct follow-up to the UtRH story, no clear direction for the character in it's aftermath, and in a way he has spent all of his second life in the shadow of the Bat in much the same way people say Dick Grayson has. Before the reboot he'd never been given a chance to grow as a character, never had any friends to call his own at least until Scarlett became his partner, never done anything away from Gotham nor anything not tied to his anger and PTSD over his death and resurrection. He's been running in circles for years. If toning down on some previous aspects of his character is what it takes to move the character beyond this nonsense and into a position that gives him a chance at some real character growth then I'm all for it.


The issues involved could not continue on forever for all the reasons that you posit.  However, it isn't surprising that no one was particularly interested in dealing with the fallout from _Under the Red Hood_.  The issues placed on the table were messy, had little in the way of a clear action based payoff, and held the danger if not handled with a very sensitive touch of making Bruce look anywhere from bad to horrible in any number of ways - in fact the dangers are so clear in retrospect that it's surprising alarm bells weren't going off all over the place.  It's a textbook case of plotting for an immediate story but paying almost no attention to deeper and longer-term implications for character and world.  Or perhaps its an even clearer case of assuming that everyone sees characters and situations the way you do.  One suspects many at DC had bought into the image, that had grown over the years, of Jason as the "bad Robin" who was brutal and murderous and got himself killed by not listening to Bruce -- an image that was first propagated, in no small part, out of fear that people would blame Bruce for being neglectful and incompetent in getting Jason killed.  When things turned out to be quite a bit more divisive than that, it was easier just to use Jason's anger and Bruce's emotional incapacity as a set of narrative crutches for stories that just hobbled around in circles.  And of course, as is often the case with avoidance, they tended to fall into the very traps they were trying to evade, as they never really found a stable characterization for Jason and Bruce often came out looking bad anyway.

It's interesting to speculate what might have happened with Morrison.  The Wingman arc did seem to be leading in the way of a reconciliation, and Lobdell partially picked up on that.  But in any case, as you say, if it takes hand waving and character retcons to get out of the trap, then so be it.  Jason is probably a better character without all of his rage and bitterness, Bruce a better character without all of his emotional paralysis and self-righteousness, and the haziness surrounding Jason's death and return in the New 52, particularly as regards the specific details and sequences of events, is probably all for the best.  Both characters gain badly needed growth potential, and the mist drawn over specific events allows for maneuvering room as every interaction does not have to be referenced back to or overshadowed by some past milestone - and even when it is, the references can be flexible.  Which, of course, is part of what a reboot is supposed to do for you.

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## oasis1313

It's just more of the same crap at DC.  It's a shame these characters are entrusted to such incompetence.

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## Dzetoun

> It's just more of the same crap at DC.  It's a shame these characters are entrusted to such incompetence.



So, what is it some specifically that is is so objectionable?

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## oasis1313

> So, what is it some specifically that is is so objectionable?


Okay.  The "New 52".  Every last panel of it.

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## Daredevil is Legend

You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe

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## Dzetoun

> You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe


Well, as others have said the problem is that DC would never sacrifice any of its major cash cow villains, no matter how hard the writers argued, so that kind of thing would be hard to sustain. The other, maybe even bigger problem, is that if you move Jason past Bruce, sooner or later you are going to have to try and move Bruce past him (in theory you would not have to, but in actuality Bruce by the 2000s was far too dominant a character to be ignored, it was not like 1980 when Dick Grayson could more or less stay permanently away) and then you are right back into that whole complicated tangle again.

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## Dzetoun

> Okay.  The "New 52".  Every last panel of it.


Then you found Bruce and Jason to be better characterized in the old continuity? How so, specifically?  Please, no "everything was better before the New 52."  What about Jason and Bruce *specifically* was better?

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## Daredevil is Legend

> Well, as others have said the problem is that DC would never sacrifice any of its major cash cow villains, no matter how hard the writers argued, so that kind of thing would be hard to sustain. The other, maybe even bigger problem, is that if you move Jason past Bruce, sooner or later you are going to have to try and move Bruce past him (in theory you would not have to, but in actuality Bruce by the 2000s was far too dominant a character to be ignored, it was not like 1980 when Dick Grayson could more or less stay permanently away) and then you are right back into that whole complicated tangle again.


Well,you could always create villains for him. Punisher doesn't kill big name villains so I still think it could've work. As for Batman,I don't think you have to ignore their history,Batman could still be a big part of the story through flash backs and dialogue. I think it would've been okay if they ran into each others every so often.Just my opinion

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## JasonTodd428

> You know I would have loved a series on Jason Todd pre 52. I think if Judd Winick would have moved him past Bruce and keep doing more stuff like in Lost Days it would have been good for Jason. I like the idea of Jason traveling the world and wiping out bad people. But anyways i'm glad he has a home in the universe


I would have enjoyed something like that myself before the reboot especially if they created some new villains for him to face instead of the standard Bat villians like you suggested in a later post. Anything that even made an attempt at getting Jason to move on with his life would have been welcome to me at the time in much the same way the changes that were made to the character in the N52 were welcome ones to me. I'd have also liked to see what they would have done with the partnership between Jason and Scarlet myself. That partnership had the potential for some really interesting character development for Jason and might have made him come to understand the things that Bruce went through with him a bit better. Personally, though I'm just glad to see DC trying something good and decent for him to erase all those years of "bad Robin" jibes that writers liked to throw in whenever he was mentioned.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> I would have enjoyed something like that myself before the reboot especially if they created some new villains for him to face instead of the standard Bat villians like you suggested in a later post. Anything that even made an attempt at getting Jason to move on with his life would have been welcome to me at the time in much the same way the changes that were made to the character in the N52 were welcome ones to me. I'd have also liked to see what they would have done with the partnership between Jason and Scarlet myself. That partnership had the potential for some really interesting character development for Jason and might have made him come to understand the things that Bruce went through with him a bit better. Personally, though I'm just glad to see DC trying something good and decent for him to erase all those years of "bad Robin" jibes that writers liked to throw in whenever he was mentioned.


Agreed 100%

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## Dzetoun

> Well,you could always create villains for him. Punisher doesn't kill big name villains so I still think it could've work. As for Batman,I don't think you have to ignore their history,Batman could still be a big part of the story through flash backs and dialogue. I think it would've been okay if they ran into each others every so often.Just my opinion


That's a good point about the Punisher. I'm not sure it could have worked the same way with Jason, though.  Frank Castle never had a history with major villains before becoming the Punisher, whereas whatever Jason did his history would be looming, along with the question of why he was dealing with penny-ante types when he knows of an entire city filled with much more lucrative targets.  But, we will never know, unless DC decides to put an alternate Jason somewhere in the multiverse.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> That's a good point about the Punisher. I'm not sure it could have worked the same way with Jason, though.  Frank Castle never had a history with major villains before becoming the Punisher, whereas whatever Jason did his history would be looming, along with the question of why he was dealing with penny-ante types when he knows of an entire city filled with much more lucrative targets.  But, we will never know, unless DC decides to put an alternate Jason somewhere in the multiverse.


Well he could always say what he said in the first issue of Outlaws that Batman and Gotham deserve each others.And then he could have left to make his own mark on the world and make new enemies and allies and eventually return to deal with his unfinished business with Bruce and then they could both come to realize that they respect each others but they're better off apart. But you also make a good point as well about them having histories with major characters

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## JasonTodd428

Yeah. Being a part of the Bat Family, especially if one is a former partner to Batman, does have this side effect. It also makes it harder for the characters in that not only might they have their own rogues galleries but they also have Batman's to contend with whenever they are in Gotham simply because of that connection. Therefore fans expect those characters to have run-ins and Jason has a particular history with the Joker. Whether you believe the Joker's tale at the end of the RHatO zero issue or not the fact remains that the clown killed him and so the two are forever connected in the minds of fans.

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## Pharozonk

> It feels like DC has lately been watering down Jason's badassedness.  Like him better as a black sheep.


I disagree. I loathe the Nu52 with a passion, but what they did with Jason was a fantastic idea. I love Jason as Robin, but after Winnick finished UTRH, Jason wasn't really being written very well and quickly descended into faux Punisher territory. This new Jason is more likable and is more developed in my opinion.

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## Aioros22

You don`t need to go psycho and shoot everybody in the end to be the black sheep of the family. You only need to have tension looming around and be a contrast to the ideias perpetuated by the head of the family. In this regard Jason will always be the black sheep of the family, as one can read in Superman/Batman Annual#1 for the lastest example. 

In the end, I feel (and agree) that if DC watered down a bit on the edge is for the best interest on the character for the long haul. You either turn him completely (and lose interactions that make sense to exist) or have him the black sheep who works his own agenda but that can show up to help if something huge blows up (which have been the case in 90% of the interactions since the New52 kicked in). The grey is still there, the edge is still there. It`s just not overblown. And frankly that seems to work for the best, considering the fanbase response at large between the new stuff and the stuff post UDRH. 

Ergo, while I feel for Grayson and Drake fans, I am glad DC has been smart about Jason.

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## Jay Kay

Yeah, honestly, I think the New 52 has really helped Jason as a character. I mean, his appearances before it were really...varying in quality, to say the least. 

First you had his reintroduction in Under the Hood. The Infinite Crisis tie-in at the end nearly ruins it, but the core concept of it was solid and executed perfectly. Then for a few years he was either play-acting in other people's costumes, or was in Countdown. His appearance in Morrison's Batman & Robin was solid, even if he was more a symbol for a 90s anti-hero version of Batman. You had Winick's Lost Days, which was very formulaic and dull (Jason trains with amoral mercs, is somehow shocked when amoral mercs does something amoral, beats them up, and somewhere we get a moment where he sees something with the Batfamily and starts to cry), and then his brief arc on Batman & Robin, which I think cemented that while Winick laid out a great foundation for a resurrected Jason, that's basically all he had in his holster.

Now, while I'm surprised that right now Jason will probably be closer to the Bat-Family than Dick, he's doing pretty well. Red Hood has not only kept the foundation that Winick set up that worked so well, but also gave Jason his own little world that makes him work as his own characters, and thrown him with some characters, Roy and Kory, which makes for some interesting character moments. 

So yeah, while I would say that some characters didn't fare very well in the New 52, I think Jason, along with Roy and Starfire, most definitely have and it's the best that any of those characters have been written in years.

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## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, honestly, I think the New 52 has really helped Jason as a character. I mean, his appearances before it were really...varying in quality, to say the least. 
> 
> First you had his reintroduction in Under the Hood. The Infinite Crisis tie-in at the end nearly ruins it, but the core concept of it was solid and executed perfectly. Then for a few years he was either play-acting in other people's costumes, or was in Countdown. His appearance in Morrison's Batman & Robin was solid, even if he was more a symbol for a 90s anti-hero version of Batman. You had Winick's Lost Days, which was very formulaic and dull (Jason trains with amoral mercs, is somehow shocked when amoral mercs does something amoral, beats them up, and somewhere we get a moment where he sees something with the Batfamily and starts to cry), and then his brief arc on Batman & Robin, which I think cemented that while Winick laid out a great foundation for a resurrected Jason, that's basically all he had in his holster.
> 
> *Now, while I'm surprised that right now Jason will probably be closer to the Bat-Family than Dick, he's doing pretty well. Red Hood has not only kept the foundation that Winick set up that worked so well, but also gave Jason his own little world that makes him work as his own characters, and thrown him with some characters, Roy and Kory, which makes for some interesting character moments.* 
> 
> So yeah, while I would say that some characters didn't fare very well in the New 52, I think Jason, along with Roy and Starfire, most definitely have and it's the best that any of those characters have been written in years.


I agree especially with the bolded part here. It is a little strange to see Jason actually working with members of the Bat Family rather than fighting them all the time but to me it's a good change because it shows that he is willing to and, more importantly, can set aside his differences with them so that they can work together. I've really enjoyed seeing him interacting with them and I absolutely love seeing him with Roy and Kori. That combination of personalities just works so well and it does give Jason some much needed grounding, which helps take the edge off his constant rage, as well as character moments that have gone a long way toward his character development. 

I think of all the Robin's Jason got by far the best deal in the reboot.

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## Godlike13

Well Jason seemingly made out well in the 52 because he was dead more than he was ever alive, so he was never very developed in first place. So unlike Dick or Tim there wasn't really anything to take away from the character, because besides dieing and becoming Red Hood he never really did anything. He could only really gain development. 

Though with that being said i am among those who believe his new 52 development has watered him down considerably. While he now might be more developed, he's also now become rather redundant and has pretty much lost his impact. It'll be interesting to see what they do with him after RHatO runs its course. Which right now seems like its just kind of spinning its wheels.

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## Kid A

> I think of all the Robin's Jason got by far the best deal in the reboot.


He's the only Robin I like in the New 52, though hopefully Seely and co. will change that.

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## LoneNecromancer

> I think of all the Robin's Jason got by far the best deal in the reboot.


To be fair someone tried their best to trash him with Tynion's run, the inconsistant artists after Rocafort's leaving and that crappy B&R issue after Damian's death.

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## EdwardNigma

I disagree completely to those who don't think a good villain/anti-hero arc for Jason could work. He obviously isn't going to off the Joker but who is to say he doesn't try? The Joker tries to kill Batman all the time. Obviously we know it isn't going to happen but we are still entertained. The same thing could apply here. The only problem is you have to write well to pull it off.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I disagree completely to those who don't think a good villain/anti-hero arc for Jason could work. He obviously isn't going to off the Joker but who is to say he doesn't try? The Joker tries to kill Batman all the time. Obviously we know it isn't going to happen but we are still entertained. The same thing could apply here. The only problem is you have to write well to pull it off.


Sure you could that but then you will: Retreading AGAIN what Winnick did on Under the Red Hood, rendering Jason's argument meanigless (and keep in mind than when Jason was allowed to off a Joker version it was really lame and unsatisfactory). Giving Jason no names criminals to kill is also a retread of UtRH, realystically speaking that direction for Jason would only end on he becoming a crime lord for the batfamily to defeat (AGAIN a retread of UtRH) See a pattern here?

And I can't understand all of you people claiming how watered down Jason is now when DC's getting a TON of flak for being too edgy and violent.

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## EdwardNigma

> Sure you could that but then you will: Retreading AGAIN what Winnick did on Under the Red Hood, rendering Jason's argument meanigless (and keep in mind than when Jason was allowed to off a Joker version it was really lame and unsatisfactory). Giving Jason no names criminals to kill is also a retread of UtRH, realystically speaking that direction for Jason would only end on he becoming a crime lord for the batfamily to defeat (AGAIN a retread of UtRH) See a pattern here?
> 
> And I can't understand all of you people claiming how watered down Jason is now when DC's getting a TON of flak for being too edgy and violent.


It's because he is watered down but I CAN'T imagine Jason EVER teaming up with the Bat family like he does now after his argument in Under the Red Hood. It is completely hypocritical and out of character.

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## Godlike13

There is a lot more than they could have done with the UtRH Jason that wouldn't be retreading what Winick did. Like for instance take him out of Gotham, have him take his competing brand of justice on the road. Hitting other cities like Metropolis and seeing how those cities hero's react to him. Another thing they could have tried which i think could have been interesting is have him join the Suicide Squad.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's because he is watered down but I CAN'T imagine Jason EVER teaming up with the Bat family like he does now after his argument in Under the Red Hood. It is completely hypocritical and out of character.


N52 Jason isn't the same as UtRH Jason for once, Dick was aware about who was Red Hood (and he even fought him) on the N52. Until more is revelade we can't really say if is hypocrital for him to work with the family.




> There is a lot more than they could have done with the UtRH Jason that wouldn't be retreading what Winick did. Like for instance take him out of Gotham, have him take his competing brand of justice on the road. Hitting other cities like Metropolis and seeing how those cities hero's react to him. Another thing they could have tried which i think could have been interesting is have him join the Suicide Squad.


The problem with that is the Batman connection, Bruce would end looking incompetent for allowing a problem of his to bother other cities. And Winnick did try that approach with the GA story and wasn't that well received.

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## Kid A

> N52 Jason isn't the same as UtRH Jason for once, Dick was aware about who was Red Hood (and he even fought him) on the N52. Until more is revelade we can't really say if is hypocrital for him to work with the family.


Even if UtRH is canon in the New 52, Jason would have still changed as a person from that story, so I don't really see how hypocrisy is really relevant.  I mean people change their attitudes, it happens.  




> The problem with that is the Batman connection, Bruce would end looking incompetent for allowing a problem of his to bother other cities. And Winnick did try that approach with the GA story and wasn't that well received.


I agree, but to be fair, those issues were pretty bad.  Winnick struck gold on UtRH, but he's horribly inconsistent, and I remember Jason being really soapbox-y and obnoxious in those issues.

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## JasonTodd428

> There is a lot more than they could have done with the UtRH Jason that wouldn't be retreading what Winick did. Like for instance take him out of Gotham, have him take his competing brand of justice on the road. Hitting other cities like Metropolis and seeing how those cities hero's react to him. Another thing they could have tried which i think could have been interesting is have him join the Suicide Squad.


While it's certainly true that they could have done a lot of things with the character after the end of UtRH and while I would have been just as happy to see what a fully developed villain version of Jason Todd would have been like the simple fact is DC dropped the ball after UtRH was over. They had no real plans for the character beyond that one story and no writer willing enough to pick up where Winick left off. If they had then Jason would not have spent all that time stagnating, spending time connected at the hip to Batman while being involved in a seemingly never ending cycle of similar stories that were merely rehashing of the same tired plotline with only the characters involved being different each time.

Personally, for me it was time that Jason underwent some kind of shakeup. Could that have happened without a reboot? sure and I think it was trending that way before the reboot with the introduction of Scarlet and their decision to leave Gotham. The reboot merely gave them an excuse to take it a bit further more quickly is all.

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## JasonTodd428

> To be fair someone tried their best to trash him with Tynion's run, the inconsistant artists after Rocafort's leaving and that crappy B&R issue after Damian's death.


To be fair it could have been much worse than that. See Tim Drake. I believe he drew the short straw in the reboot and has been handled far worse then Jason was by Tomasi or Tynion.

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## Jay Kay

> There is a lot more than they could have done with the UtRH Jason that wouldn't be retreading what Winick did. Like for instance take him out of Gotham, have him take his competing brand of justice on the road. *Hitting other cities like Metropolis and seeing how those cities hero's react to him.* Another thing they could have tried which i think could have been interesting is have him join the Suicide Squad.


I'll tell you exactly how it'll end--Jason will do his thing in Metropolis and then Superman will catch him in a matter of days and throw his happy little ass into jail.

Now, the Suicide Squad has some potential--it would certainly make his current title "& The Outlaws" make a lot more sense...

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## Aioros22

> It's because he is watered down but I CAN'T imagine Jason EVER teaming up with the Bat family like he does now after his argument in Under the Red Hood. It is completely hypocritical and out of character.


Under The Red Hood happened at large, but this isn`t the same Jason. It isn`t the same family either. The reason he`s well handled now is because there`s more than one venue for him to go that won`t feel forced. If you actually read the crossovers he`s had with them, Jason is never the entusiastic guy when he needs to return to Gotham, but he does, because that`s what family is about. The only watered down aspect they made was to not have Jason going rogue on every character around. 

If you think of it this way, it`s really the one marketing idea that will work in the long run for the character in the mythos. Why? Because in the end, most of the fanbase wants to see him interact with the family. Same with any other ex Robin or ex partner. They need to be theyr own man, but the interaction is essencial, time to time, to remind us who they used to be and what they are at the core. 

You could in a way, have Jason make his goal trying to off the Joker, true, but that leads to a one note song that will end up always getting stale. If you write him that way, he will only come across as weak, overly obsessive and without much else to add: i.e boring to read. A character to suceed needs diferent goals, an agenda outside the nest and secondary characters around to interact with. This Jason got it, finally.

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## Godlike13

Jason has a goal and an agenda outside the nest?

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## Dzetoun

> Under The Red Hood happened at large, but this isn`t the same Jason. It isn`t the same family either. The reason he`s well handled now is because there`s more than one venue for him to go that won`t feel forced. If you actually read the crossovers he`s had with them, Jason is never the entusiastic guy when he needs to return to Gotham, but he does, because that`s what family is about. The only watered down aspect they made was to not have Jason going rogue on every character around.


I'm sorry, what do you mean that UTRH happened "at large?" Do you mean that something along those lines happened but the details played out differently because we are dealing with different characters? If so, I think we are in agreement.  This is largely my understanding of DITF in the New 52 as well.  Something like that happened, but there might be quite a bit of difference in the specifics (I seriously doubt the Joker was ever a UN ambassador, for one thing, and I'm sure DC was very glad to jettison that wretch-inducing twist).

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## Aioros22

> Jason has a goal and an agenda outside the nest?


Global trotting, targetting the Untitled, dealing with the league of Assasins, etc. He`s been out of Gotham and out of obsessing over Bruce and the Joker, that`s what I mean with being "out of the nest". Of all the former Robins, Jason spends the least time around.

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## Aioros22

> I'm sorry, what do you mean that UTRH happened "at large?" Do you mean that something along those lines happened but the details played out differently because we are dealing with different characters? If so, I think we are in agreement.  This is largely my understanding of DITF in the New 52 as well.  Something like that happened, but there might be quite a bit of difference in the specifics (I seriously doubt the Joker was ever a UN ambassador, for one thing, and I'm sure DC was very glad to jettison that wretch-inducing twist).


Pretty much. UDRH is basically the same storyline without the Prime part playing in, for one. In the first issue of RATHO there was this flashback of Bruce on the ground with Jason pointing the gun at him when Dick kicks Jason from behind to save him, something that we didn`t saw happening exactly the same way in the mentioned arc. So I`m thinking editorial is keeping most things but will change an especific here and there to better suit the new takes.

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## Zainu

> And I can't understand all of you people claiming how watered down Jason is now when DC's getting a TON of flak for being too edgy and violent.


But DC isn't edgy or violent at all. They just pull silly stunts for the sake of sensationalism.

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## Godlike13

> Global trotting, targetting the Untitled, dealing with the league of Assasins, etc. He`s been out of Gotham and out of obsessing over Bruce and the Joker, that`s what I mean with being "out of the nest". Of all the former Robins, Jason spends the least time around.


Well ya he's not based in Gotham, but aimlessly globe trotting and randomly fighting different groups doesn't really indicate much of a goal or an agenda with him though. And while as u say, out all the former Robins Jason might spend the least time around. He's also the only one that runs around with a Bat symbol on his chest. 
And quite frankly he's not the former Robin who spends the least time around. Not lately. Of late he's arguably been the former Robin who's most been around. He taken part in all of the Bat events, he's was in the Batman/Supeman Annual, he's in Eternal. He's around quite a bit actually.

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## Tony Stark

> Ya he's not based in Gotham, but aimlessly globe trotting and randomly fighting different groups doesn't really indicate much of a goal or an agenda with him though. And while as u say, out all the former Robins Jason might spend the least time around. He's also the only one that runs around with a Bat symbol on his chest. 
> Though quite frankly he's not the former Robin who spends the least time around. Not lately. Of late he's arguably been the former Robin who's most been around. He taken part in all of the Bat events, he's was in the Batman/Supeman Annual, he's in Eternal. He's around quite a bit actually.


He was in the Batman/Superman Annual, but that was because Batman chose to go to him since he didn't think Dick or Tim was able to handle this job. So Batman went to him. Jason's Agenda is to stop evil were ever he finds in. Be ii in space or anywhere else.

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## Aioros22

> Well ya he's not based in Gotham, but aimlessly globe trotting and randomly fighting different groups doesn't really indicate much of a goal or an agenda with him though.


It did when said arcs about the groups where introduced. The basic of Jason is to take down crime/evil with fire while moving on from his damaged past. 




> And while as u say, out all the former Robins Jason might spend the least time around. He's also the only one that runs around with a Bat symbol on his chest. And quite frankly he's not the former Robin who spends the least time around. Not lately. Of late he's arguably been the former Robin who's most been around. He taken part in all of the Bat events, he's was in the Batman/Supeman Annual, he's in Eternal. He's around quite a bit actually.


Tim and Dick were also a part in the same Bat events. The main omission is Dick right now in Eternal. But what I mean here is that outside those events that make him interact with them, he doesn`t get by his day to day around Gotham as much as the others do. As in, his life doesn`t center there anymore. The Annual was an especific circumstance of being called in by Batman. 

I think the main reason the reboot did wonders is actually that. His life is now centered outside.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Heck, Lobdell did stated that Batman, Gotham or Joker would only get some references here and there but the real focus of his were to give Jason a place to call his own. Jason agenda now is to live fully along Roy and Kory (despite all the snark he aim towards them) and let go anything Bat related. Yes, he wears the bat on his chest but is because it was a gift from Kory, there's nothing on his characterization that leads to believe he gives any importance to the emblem. Outside of the annual and the crossover issues, Jason's presence on major stories is tangential, he only showed up on a panel during NOTO and only had a few lines during DOTF.

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## EdwardNigma

I love the idea of a rogue Robin who hates Batman and will either make him see his viewpoint or force one of them to die. Another Batman supporting Robin is the last thing we need.

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## Dzetoun

> Heck, Lobdell did stated that Batman, Gotham or Joker would only get some references here and there but the real focus of his were to give Jason a place to call his own. Jason agenda now is to live fully along Roy and Kory (despite all the snark he aim towards them) and let go anything Bat related. Yes, he wears the bat on his chest but is because it was a gift from Kory, there's nothing on his characterization that leads to believe he gives any importance to the emblem. Outside of the annual and the crossover issues, Jason's presence on major stories is tangential, he only showed up on a panel during NOTO and only had a few lines during DOTF.


I don't know that I would go *that* far.  Of course, we don't have a completely consistent presentation of Jason's relationship with the Bat Family, as Lobdell, Tynion, Pak, Johns, and Tomasi have all given somewhat different views, and they are not always totally consistent in their own work, much less with each other.  Seeley will probably put his own spin on things when he writes Jason in _Eternal_. Still, putting it all together and smoothing out things as best we can, it seems that Jason is and always has been on good terms with Tim, whom he seems to regard with some bemusement  as a kind of younger brother whose eccentricities approach pathology.  He also seems to regard Bruce as a brother, albeit one with whom he fights constantly and whom he sometimes needles with out-and-out cruelty. Still, he rallies to Bruce in crises, and refers to Bruce's sidekicks as "us." Bruce regards him with guilt and regret rather than anger or intolerance. In fact, disapproving as Bruce is of Jason's methods, it seems that he does not want to see his black sheep harmed or confined or punished, and actively seeks to prevent such outcomes.

As far as the rest of the family goes, Jason seems, like the other Robins, to regard Alfred with affection. We don't really know how he felt about Damian, although he seems to accept that as Bruce's biological son Damian had special status. He dislikes Dick rather intensely, liking to make double-entendres out his name, and we will see about Barbara and Kate Kane in _Eternal_.  So, tension certainly is present, and even animosity, but it all seems to be within the bounds of a family quarrel.

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## Dzetoun

> I love the idea of a rogue Robin who hates Batman and will either make him see his viewpoint or force one of them to die. Another Batman supporting Robin is the last thing we need.


That is tantamount to saying you want Jason killed off.  That is a perfectly legitimate position, but let's be honest about it. If you really want to see a Jason who cannot abide Bruce to the point of forcing a lethal confrontation, then after a few repeats of the cycle Jason will die.  There is simply no other way for that story to end.

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## Dzetoun

> Pretty much. UDRH is basically the same storyline without the Prime part playing in, for one. In the first issue of RATHO there was this flashback of Bruce on the ground with Jason pointing the gun at him when Dick kicks Jason from behind to save him, something that we didn`t saw happening exactly the same way in the mentioned arc. So I`m thinking editorial is keeping most things but will change an especific here and there to better suit the new takes.


Well, I kind of agree.  I think we ought to be very careful of assuming that anything from the old continuity happened until it is confirmed and given specifics.  Even then, there is more than a little chance that it will be retconned away.  At this point we know Jason was resurrected in the Lazarus Pit, returned to Gotham, and engaged in activities that led to eighty-something deaths and confrontation with Bruce and Dick. I'm not sure we can say much else.  Similarly we know that, earlier, the Joker trapped and killed Jason in Ethiopia. Once again, outside that I don't know that we should assume anything about details or specifics.

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## Godlike13

> It did when said arcs about the groups where introduced. The basic of Jason is to take down crime/evil with fire while moving on from his damaged past.


Thats is way too general. Thats pretty much the basic of a super hero. Come on now. Having to go that general kind of proves my point. 




> Tim and Dick were also a part in the same Bat events. The main omission is Dick right now in Eternal. But what I mean here is that outside those events that make him interact with them, he doesn`t get by his day to day around Gotham as much as the others do. As in, his life doesn`t center there anymore. The Annual was an especific circumstance of being called in by Batman. 
> 
> I think the main reason the reboot did wonders is actually that. His life is now centered outside.


Tim has been centered around Teen Titans and Dick only tried hanging in Gotham briefly before moving to Chicago. Their day to day wasn't in Gotham either. And ya, they were also a part in the same Bat events same as Jason. So he wasn't any less around then them, but they weren't in the Batman/Superman Annual, and Dicks has been MIA since FE started. So to say that Jason spends the least time around is just currently not true. And while RHatO isn't based in Gotham, Jason still consistently finds himself in Gotham and around Batman.

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## Godlike13

> Heck, Lobdell did stated that Batman, Gotham or Joker would only get some references here and there but the real focus of his were to give Jason a place to call his own. Jason agenda now is to live fully along Roy and Kory (despite all the snark he aim towards them) and let go anything Bat related. Yes, he wears the bat on his chest but is because it was a gift from Kory, there's nothing on his characterization that leads to believe he gives any importance to the emblem. Outside of the annual and the crossover issues, Jason's presence on major stories is tangential, he only showed up on a panel during NOTO and only had a few lines during DOTF.


Again, to live along Roy and Kory is another rather general agenda, and he's still very Bat related. Even if it was a gift from Kory he is still running around with a Bat brand on his chest, DC put it there for a reason, and he still takes part in all the Bat events and then some. Hell even, Batman has appeared more in RHatO then he has in Nightwing, Teen titans, or Batgirl even.

----------


## oasis1313

I like Jason with a chip on his shoulder.  Dick and Tim can be the "good boys''--what makes Jason different and interesting is that he's got a mean streak.

----------


## EdwardNigma

"That is tantamount to saying you want Jason killed off. That is a perfectly legitimate position, but let's be honest about it. If you really want to see a Jason who cannot abide Bruce to the point of forcing a lethal confrontation, then after a few repeats of the cycle Jason will die. There is simply no other way for that story to end."


I get what you are saying but almost every other Batman villain tries to kill him right? They are still around. This isn't really that different though it does take a little more creativity with the writers which is a good thing.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thats is way too general. Thats pretty much the basic of a super hero. Come on now. Having to go that general kind of proves my point.


If you regard how Batman and Superman fight crime as anthesis to how Todd fights (and they are written as such, ergo the arguments we have seen with the two of them and Hood in RATHO) then at least it`s not supposed to be how generally the super hero is regarded to openly operate at DC. You have guys like Aquaman and Wonder Woman killing when need be, but they are a fantasy/myth drawing type of character who mostly target virtually monsters. Todd falls in the vigilante category who deals up and close with humanity and its flaws and among the ones who walk around DC on the side of the angels, he`s among the grey when it comes to how he does it. And they aren`t supposed to be that many. 

While damaged past is part of the general concept of the super hero, among the family, he`s by far the most damaged of them all. What Loebdell started with, the *hook* of the book regarding Jason, was to especifically grow and move past the *hatred* and *past motivations* he had regarding Gotham. 




> Tim has been centered around Teen Titans and Dick only tried hanging in Gotham briefly before moving to Chicago. Their day to day wasn't in Gotham either.


They hang around more by simple virtue of interaction with the supporting charaters that are part of the city. Who was the one that stayed out of the family portrait, for exemple? Who is Dick constantly flirting with, in and out, for another exemple?

It`s not that Jason doesn`t know people from Gotham, is that pretty much everyone he knows reminds him of a past he wants to move away from.

----------


## Dzetoun

> "That is tantamount to saying you want Jason killed off. That is a perfectly legitimate position, but let's be honest about it. If you really want to see a Jason who cannot abide Bruce to the point of forcing a lethal confrontation, then after a few repeats of the cycle Jason will die. There is simply no other way for that story to end."
> 
> 
> I get what you are saying but almost every other Batman villain tries to kill him right? They are still around. This isn't really that different though it does take a little more creativity with the writers which is a good thing.


But the other villains aren't former Robins.  They don't have the kind of intense personal background with Batman that a villainous Jason (or any Jason) would have, and therefore the constant struggle has a very different feel.  If you will, for most of them, it's professional and not personal, which allows for different story arcs and different outcomes.  The only exceptions to that, recently, are  the Joker and Talia.  Talia they killed off.  As for Joker, whole reams have been written about the problems they have with that character and what a corner they have backed themselves into, in large part because of the very personal, and thus exceptionally vicious, nature of the confrontation.  A large part of the dialogue in the climax of DotF consisted of Snyder trying to find ways out of the corner and not succeeding very well.  The dynamic you are describing for Jason, to force Batman to concede or one of them has to die, is Joker's dynamic, isn't it?  And we, and DC, definitely don't need another Joker and all the narrative problems that come with a character whose only logical end is a death that can never be reached.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I still want my Helena Bertinelli/Jason Todd team up. I really hope I get it one day

----------


## Punisher007

Wait, have the EVER had a team-up together?  Given their personalities/backgrounds, it seems like such an obvious thing to do.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Wait, have the EVER had a team-up together?  Given their personalities/backgrounds, it seems like such an obvious thing to do.


No they haven't and it's a damn shame

----------


## EdwardNigma

> But the other villains aren't former Robins.  They don't have the kind of intense personal background with Batman that a villainous Jason (or any Jason) would have, and therefore the constant struggle has a very different feel.  If you will, for most of them, it's professional and not personal, which allows for different story arcs and different outcomes.  The only exceptions to that, recently, are  the Joker and Talia.  Talia they killed off.  As for Joker, whole reams have been written about the problems they have with that character and what a corner they have backed themselves into, in large part because of the very personal, and thus exceptionally vicious, nature of the confrontation.  A large part of the dialogue in the climax of DotF consisted of Snyder trying to find ways out of the corner and not succeeding very well.  The dynamic you are describing for Jason, to force Batman to concede or one of them has to die, is Joker's dynamic, isn't it?  And we, and DC, definitely don't need another Joker and all the narrative problems that come with a character whose only logical end is a death that can never be reached.


You are right and this is a very good point. I get it would be hard to write Jason this way but it would be rewarding with the right writers. I believe it could be done well but that is the real hurdle.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I still want my Helena Bertinelli/Jason Todd team up. I really hope I get it one day


That would be one interesting team up. I wonder why that never happened before the reboot. Seems like it would have been perfect.





> You are right and this is a very good point. I get it would be hard to write Jason this way but it would be rewarding with the right writers. I believe it could be done well but that is the real hurdle.


If the right writer could handle this then sure it might be an interesting tale for an arc but I don't happen to think it's a good idea for a permanent direction for the same reasons as Dzetoun. I also don't believe that DC  has a writer that could do such a story justice without managing to also write Jason into a corner. Jason has already spent a lot of years stuck in endless repetitive cycle because of his hatred for all things Bat. I don't think this type of story would have helped matters back then (not that they didn't try that too) and I don't think it would do anything for him now.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I still want my Helena Bertinelli/Jason Todd team up. I really hope I get it one day


Me and my brother have talked about this for years. Would really love to see it.

----------


## Kurisu

I'm totes down for a Jalena team up as well! She didn't seem to think too highly of him prior to the reboot though...



But that's what the New 52 is for, amirite?  :Cool:

----------


## beetlebum

> I'm totes down for a Jalena team up as well! She didn't seem to think too highly of him prior to the reboot though...
> 
> 
> 
> But that's what the New 52 is for, amirite?


To be fair, Chris Yost (who wrote this issue) didn't seem to understand Helena very well. That's evident by how he misinterpreted her relationship with both Barbara and Dick (as they'd long moved past the stage where they lectured her for using 'lethal' violence) and how he portrayed Helena as someone who would try to kill someone before finding an alternate solution. That regressed her from all the progress she had made while being written by both Gail Simone and Greg Rucka.

Anyways, long story short, I think Helena is the last person who should be judging Jason like this, especially given how she was treated like the black sheep of Gotham for quite some time.

And I'd like a team-up between her and Jason as well.

----------


## beetlebum

Is because Jason would look, very, _very_ sexy in the brand new uniform Helena would (force) give him to wear:



He would just be too fabulous for words. 

[source]

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't think that would be a good team up, Jason hanging around damaged and 'toxic' people isn't really new and again, the story would've relied on the both of them being Batman's rejections or failures.

In the N52 however, would be interesting to see Jason interact with his transimensional 'step-sister' though.

----------


## Zainu

> Is because Jason would look, very, _very_ sexy in the brand new uniform Helena would (force) give him to wear:
> 
> 
> 
> He would just be too fabulous for words. 
> 
> [source]


Aww yes. Ab window. And on DC's finest bad boy. 

On a related note, I think that *this* is what they should have given Power-boy. Cos' abs are like the male equivalent of a rack. Nice to look at AND feel. But instead DC gave us a random hairy chest window. Eww//

----------


## JasonTodd428

> In the N52 however, would be interesting to see Jason interact with his transimensional 'step-sister' though.


That would have been fun to see. I liked seeing her and Damian interacting myself so I would have liked to see her interact with the others as well.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason hasn't seemed badass enough lately; I hope they're not watering him down into a "good boy".

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Well she's back now so my dream is alive and well!!!! Jalena lives!!!

----------


## oasis1313

They're welcome to give Helena to Jason Todd and take her off Dick Grayson's neck.

----------


## Aioros22

Give Grayson some bone, man.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> They're welcome to give Helena to Jason Todd and take her off Dick Grayson's neck.


As a Jason Todd fan I welcome this

----------


## beetlebum

> They're welcome to give Helena to Jason Todd and take her off Dick Grayson's neck.


Why do you hate Helena Bertinelli so much and why do you always say these offensive things?

Anyways, we should probably get back on topic and go back to discussing Jason Todd.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I really want him to remove that Bat symbol on his chest

----------


## beetlebum

Jason Todd in Li'l Gotham was one of my favorite things.

From holding the knife that Talia gave him.



To not being able to cook properly.



To trolling his brothers.



To playing in ballpits ...

... I love it all.

Plus, he played Scrabble too and was a sore loser when he lost.

I wish Li'l Gotham hadn't been cancelled, as Nguyen and Fridolf did wonderful things with it. Nearly every one in the series was written remarkably well and Jason was no exception.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I really want him to remove that Bat symbol on his chest


Can I ask why? I kind of like the bat symbol myself. 





> Jason Todd in Li'l Gotham was one of my favorite things.
> 
> From holding the knife that Talia gave him.
> 
> 
> 
> To not being able to cook properly.
> 
> 
> ...


I loved him in Li'l Gotham and will miss the book. Nguyan and Fridolf did a good job with it and they made Damian enjoyable again for the first time since the reboot.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Can I ask why? I kind of like the bat symbol myself. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I loved him in Li'l Gotham and will miss the book. Nguyan and Fridolf did a good job with it and they made Damian enjoyable again for the first time since the reboot.


I feel the Batsymbol on RH is just sort of ironic since back when the New 52 was starting, Lobdell stated in an interview that he wanted to move Jason away from Bat-obsession or something along those lines, but here he is running around with a giant Batsymbol on his chest.

Doesn't bug me too much aesthetically since it actually does look nice.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I feel the Batsymbol on RH is just sort of ironic since back when the New 52 was starting, Lobdell stated in an interview that he wanted to move Jason away from Bat-obsession or something along those lines, but here he is running around with a giant Batsymbol on his chest.
> 
> Doesn't bug me too much aesthetically since it actually does look nice.


That makes sense. Back then I saw it as more as Jason wearing it as a sort of f-you to Batman and to Dick as well since it was his suit at some point. Nowadays I haven't really given it that much thought. Maybe he's continuing to wear it so that it's clear that Batman vouches for him(?).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That makes sense. Back then I saw it as more as Jason wearing it as a sort of f-you to Batman and to Dick as well since it was his suit at some point. Nowadays I haven't really given it that much thought. Maybe he's continuing to wear it so that it's clear that Batman vouches for him(?).


I see it more like Jason wearing the suit because was a gift from Kory, he doesn't care about the symbol anymore.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I see it more like Jason wearing the suit because was a gift from Kory, he doesn't care about the symbol anymore.


I like that idea too.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Can I ask why? I kind of like the bat symbol myself. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I loved him in Li'l Gotham and will miss the book. Nguyan and Fridolf did a good job with it and they made Damian enjoyable again for the first time since the reboot.


 It just annoys me. He's not a soldier of the Bat anymore. I just don't see why he would where that,besides he said he  didn't really care much for costumes.If he has to have a symbol,he should have his own imo.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It just annoys me. He's not a soldier of the Bat anymore. I just don't see why he would where that,besides he said he  didn't really care much for costumes.If he has to have a symbol,he should have his own imo.


That also makes sense. What type of symbol would you have liked to see him sport instead of the bat he currently has?

----------


## ABH

> It just annoys me. He's not a soldier of the Bat anymore. I just don't see why he would where that,besides he said he  didn't really care much for costumes.If he has to have a symbol,he should have his own imo.


Originally, I thought he wore it to kind of mess with the rest of the Bat-fam. 

Like he's got a bat-symbol on his chest while giving the troll-face grin.

----------


## Kingcrimsonprog

> That also makes sense. What type of symbol would you have liked to see him sport instead of the bat he currently has?


You know the Van Halen "VH" logo? That, only with "RH"... its pretty similar to a Bat Symbol for chest purposes anyway.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> That also makes sense. What type of symbol would you have liked to see him sport instead of the bat he currently has?


Hmmmmmm, i'm not sure but anything is better than a Bat symbol or that skull Morrison gave him.Maybe he shouldn't have any symbol. Also i heard Jensen Ackles is voicing the Arkham Knight in the Batman game.Is that true?

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Originally, I thought he wore it to kind of mess with the rest of the Bat-fam. 
> 
> Like he's got a bat-symbol on his chest while giving the troll-face grin.


That would make more sense than the obvious marketing stunt they're pulling

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hmmmmmm, i'm not sure but anything is better than a Bat symbol or that skull Morrison gave him. Maybe he shouldn't have any symbol.


I liked the skull a lot myself but I'm not sure how it would fit with him now. No symbol at all might be a way to go. Sure isn't an easy answer to this one is there?




> Also i heard Jensen Ackles is voicing the Arkham Knight in the Batman game.Is that true?


I've heard that too but as to whether it's true I've no idea.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I liked the skull a lot myself but I'm not sure how it would fit with him now. No symbol at all might be a way to go. Sure isn't an easy answer to this one is there?
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard that too but as to whether it's true I've no idea.


I rather his actions be his symbol. But how would you feel if Jason turns out to be Akrham Knight?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The main issue of having the skull as symbol is the fact that it would made Jason a Punisher copycat on the collective mind once again, denying him a chance to be his own character. And really I don't know why you guys are so fixated on the symbol, neither the writers or the characters or Jason himself care about it. Personally I think is a really neat touch to highlight both his upbringing as Robin and his connection with Batman.

A little bit of trivia, Morrison's Red Hood was pretty much lifted from an earlier character Morrison created for Animal Man a few years back, the Red Mask:

----------


## JasonTodd428

I though I had seen the design somewhere else before it was used for Jason but I couldn't remember where I had seen it. Thanks for helping me remember where it was.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

So what did you guys think when Jason slept with Talia. I hear most fans hated it(not me).But I thought i'd ask anyways

----------


## K. Jones

> Jason hasn't seemed badass enough lately; I hope they're not watering him down into a "good boy".


I'm eager to see what Tim Seeley does with him, if only because as has come up in quite a few other threads, Seeley's big into the Morrison stuff, and while we can be sure the black & white & red all over Frank Quitely costume won't be making a comeback, perhaps a rematch with Flamingo could, or some other really cool nod. (This is a writer who in a handful if issues has given us a streamlined, updated, holistic Croc, resurrected Doctor Darrk, cut loose Lord Death Man, given temporary closure to Talon's state-of-mind, etc ...) Plus Jaybird and Babs have run into each other less than a handful of times since his return, and since they both got their lives ruined by the Joker in the same "real-life-year"/"timeline-month-or-so", they've probably got some common ground to hash out.

(Side note ... since Seeley is handling Batwoman chores, AND Killer Croc chores, could we get a patch-job on the disparate, but not totally contradictory J.H. Williams Batwoman and Villain's Month Killer Croc one-shots? Ah, that's another topic!)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So what did you guys think when Jason slept with Talia. I hear most fans hated it(not me).But I thought i'd ask anyways


I hated it myself. I'd liked Lost Days up until that point, in fact I still do, but that just threw me completely out of the story. Seemed like it was done for shock value more than anything else.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I hated it myself. I'd liked Lost Days up until that point, in fact I still do, but that just threw me completely out of the story. Seemed like it was done for shock value more than anything else.


What do you think about Essence?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What do you think about Essence?


I wasn't bothered by his relationship with Essence half as much as I was by his sleeping with Talia maybe because it seemed more organic to me while the other seems more forced. IDK. What's your take?

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I wasn't bothered by his relationship with Essence half as much as I was by his sleeping with Talia maybe because it seemed more organic to me while the other seems more forced. IDK. What's your take?


Nice to see him get something that's his

----------


## Badou

> That makes sense. Back then I saw it as more as Jason wearing it as a sort of f-you to Batman and to Dick as well since it was his suit at some point. Nowadays I haven't really given it that much thought. Maybe he's continuing to wear it so that it's clear that Batman vouches for him(?).


Well the non comic reason is that he wears it because that is how the character has been marketed in the reboot. To change it now sort of diminishes it. It's why DC is so reluctant to make any design changes with their characters costumes no matter how bad they are.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Nice to see him get something that's his


That was part of as well.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I really wanna see Jason  team with Deadshot

----------


## oasis1313

I'd like to see Red Hood solo without Roy and Kory.

----------


## John Venus

I made this post over on the 'Favorite Dynamic Duo' thread and was wondering what Jason fans would make of it.  




> And my other favorite Dynamic Duo is......
> 
> *2. Batman & Jason Todd*
> 
> When I think of memorable Robin moments and memorable Batman and Robin moments,  the common denominator is almost always Jason Todd.  I am not talking about Jim Starlin's Robin, I am talking about how other writers such as Mike W Barr and Marv Wolfman  were characterizing him in Detective Comics and New Teen Titans respectively.  
> 
> Even before becoming the resident bad boy of the Bat Family, Jason was known for venturing into places where no other Robin has gone before.  
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## Coda

I think he makes a more effective villain. Can you imagine a former-Robin crimelord, on par with The Penguin or Two-Face? Even Batman would surely be reluctant to mess with him.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I'd like to see Red Hood solo without Roy and Kory.


Me too. I think the only way we'll get that if they cancel the series

----------


## oasis1313

> Me too. I think the only way we'll get that if they cancel the series


Yeah.  But I think Roy and Kory are just holding Jason back at this point.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think he makes a more effective villain. Can you imagine a former-Robin crimelord, on par with The Penguin or Two-Face? Even Batman would surely be reluctant to mess with him.


What makes you think that would work? Jason`s character is someone who could at most, rule crime so crime wouldn`t spread out under his command, but we already seen that angle with Under the Red Hood and later in Red Robin. More than that and he`s a flat out villain like Two Face. You can`t pull that angle with a former Robin that was especifically written as Jason was: hating rapists, drug dealers, criminals, etc.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah.  But I think Roy and Kory are just holding Jason back at this point.


Ok, that point seems interesting. What would you say they are holding back for?

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Yeah.  But I think Roy and Kory are just holding Jason back at this point.


I agree....

----------


## Punisher007

No they're not.  If anything, they're preventing him from sliding back into the same old "bad Robin with daddy issues" crap that writers get doing pre-New 52.  If Roy and Kory were gone, Jason would grow as a character, nothing in DC's past track record indicates that they would do that.  What their track record does indicate is that he'd REGRESS as a character back to the same old status quo, which doesn't interest me.

----------


## oasis1313

> I agree....


Roy and Kory are taking up panel space that belongs to JASON.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Roy and Kory are taking up panel space that belongs to JASON.


That's exactly my issue with the series. When Jason is the focus of the series it  is at it's best but it's time to show everyone that JASON TODD can stand on his own. Plus i'm really bored of Roy and Kory,they should go back to the Titans I think they're needed more over there anyways.

----------


## Kurisu

:Frown: 

_(also ka-peeng! lol)_

----------


## sidekick77

> Yeah.  But I think Roy and Kory are just holding Jason back at this point.


I think 'holding back' has become a two way street.  This book has done very little for them as individual characters.  Roy has regained some footing in the reboot, but then his life had been put in a blender prior to that, so anything different would've been an improvement.  However, this team concept is really just a vehicle to support a Bat character.  It doesn't offer Kory or Roy any honest autonomy or character development.

I would be okay with writers cutting them loose if they had another book to call home.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I think 'holding back' has become a two way street.  This book has done very little for them as individual characters.  Roy has regained some footing in the reboot, but then his life had been put in a blender prior to that, so anything different would've been an improvement.  However, this team concept is really just a vehicle to support a Bat character.  It doesn't offer Kory or Roy any honest autonomy or character development.
> 
> I would be okay with writers cutting them loose if they had another book to call home.


Yeah I agree

----------


## EdwardNigma

> I think he makes a more effective villain. Can you imagine a former-Robin crimelord, on par with The Penguin or Two-Face? Even Batman would surely be reluctant to mess with him.


COMPLETELY agree!

----------


## FailureByDesign

Now that Jason is no longer the only former Robin willing to use a gun, I wonder if that will change his position in the Bat-family in any way (if only with Bruce and Dick).

----------


## Aioros22

> Now that Jason is no longer the only former Robin willing to use a gun, I wonder if that will change his position in the Bat-family in any way (if only with Bruce and Dick).


I don`t think it will. Both characters should stay recognizable to the audience and writers likely won`t dissipate the contrast that much (because it draws readers in and makes interactions interesting). If anything, if Dick uses a gun it will be in a last case scenario, or it will be a tranq gun or something. Even still, Jason will always be different, a merit to the particular and unique background that nobody else in the family quite shares.

----------


## oasis1313

Same here.  I, too, am bored of Roy and Kory.  Jason can go in any direction he pleases, and he SHOULD (IMHO).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> No they're not.  If anything, they're preventing him from sliding back into the same old "bad Robin with daddy issues" crap that writers get doing pre-New 52.  If Roy and Kory were gone, Jason would grow as a character, nothing in DC's past track record indicates that they would do that.  What their track record does indicate is that he'd REGRESS as a character back to the same old status quo, which doesn't interest me.


Seeing the solicit for the "Future's End" onshot I have to agree with you since it pretty much states that Jason (without Roy and Kori) returns to a "new mission of retribution and brutal justice", which to my mind is just regressing the character back to his old status quo. Yeah, it's for an issue but still. I'm not at all interested in reading about that version of Jason again and I, for one, am glad that Roy and Kori are there to keep him grounded. He's not really had anyone that keeps him grounded since his resurrection and that's been a part of the problem.

----------


## IndianaDrake

To me Jason's willingness to commit brutal justice and different take on crime is what made him unique. He was the former robin with an edge that believed you couldn't stop crime so he had to control it. In a way it was actually a pretty legitimate argument. To be honest i really do not see anything unique about Jason what so ever in the new 52. In The Outlaws he just seems like even more of Dick Grayson clone except a little more willing to kill. I don't see this as Jason developing past his issues because that's not how it was written. Instead he was just all of the sudden a nicer more well rounded guy with no special attributes. He did not grow, he become redundant.

----------


## Aioros22

> To me Jason's willingness to commit brutal justice and different take on crime is what made him unique.


That`s what he *is*. 




> He was the former robin with an edge that believed you couldn't stop crime so he had to control it.


He`s not interested in that anymore (according to the new 52 so far). That entails a level of obesession he had with controling the crime element in Gotham. In the end that only leads to one place. 

They can go there, but it needs to be better written and with more balance. 




> In a way it was actually a pretty legitimate argument. To be honest i really do not see anything unique about Jason what so ever in the new 52.


His backstory alone with the Al-Caste sets him apart, nevermind the experiences in his childhood. 




> In The Outlaws he just seems like even more of Dick Grayson clone except a little more willing to kill. I don't see this as Jason developing past his issues *because that's not how it was written*. Instead he was just all of the sudden a nicer more well rounded guy with no special attributes. He did not grow, he become redundant.


Entire arcs, including the issue #0 were entirely devoted to him growing past his obessesion over Gotham, growing past his childhood in the streets in a gang, the idea that Joker played him the entire life, getting in some terms with Bruce (the reasonable ones at least) until big B screws it up - again, admitting that he can`t do everything alone, admitting he had too much hatred, etc. The edge is *still* there, perfectly mentioned in the same arcs. He will always have it, and Bruce knows it, which is why he called him to deal directly with Mongul Jr and not anyone else (Babs was in the backup).

The reason he`s more well rounded is exactly because he`s grown from a certain point. 

Oh, and no special atributes? Al-Caste? Untitled? Guns? Magical blades? Talia Al Ghul training? This former robin knows magic-fu. Top that spy-bird.

----------


## IndianaDrake

> That`s what he *is*. 
> 
> 
> 
> He`s not interested in that anymore (according to the new 52 so far). That entails a level of obesession he had with controling the crime element in Gotham. In the end that only leads to one place. 
> 
> They can go there, but it needs to be better written and with more balance. 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down. Plus its not like he knows magic , he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies. Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history. There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.

----------


## IndianaDrake

Also just because i think he should go back to brutal justice and controlling crime does not mean i think Jason should go back to Gotham because then we would just have Under the Red hood to play out all over again. I think he should leave Gotham behind and do these things on a international scale. Without Batman being involved in the story it would be a great  seeing how that tactic works out and how far Jason could take it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down. Plus its not like he knows magic , he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies. Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history. There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.


See, he problem with this is that Grayson will ALWAYS return to Gotham and deal with crime Batman-style. That's why he becoming Batman was so well received, Grayson as character only has an end, succeding Bruce some way or another he could've faced a lot of things on the past but see him on the N52 his entire existance depends on Gotham and his relationship with Bruce. (and you're kidding yourself if you think than the spy angle will be permanent, sooner or later he will be back either as Nightwing or as Batman partner)

Jason lacks that baggage, he can be ANYTHING now add his former experiences with Batman and you have a character with TONS of potential that it only need to let goo the 'bat crutch' to see that potential realized.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down.


What part of his personality you feel they watered down? The rage? I for one, thank them for it. He`s still a snarky SOB, but he`s more rounded because he`s experienced more now.




> Plus its not like he knows magic, he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies.


No one said he casts magic. What he now knows is mystical MA techniques. Something that...




> Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history.


...Dick barely touched upon in his 75y history. But this, is the new52. 




> There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.


Backstory, sarcasm, noir, being driven, magic-fu.  

I`m not among readers who feel one has to be better than the other in everything. Dick is more grounded than anyone else in the Family, the natural leader, the more mature character and the better acrobatic.




> Also just because i think he should go back to brutal justice and controlling crime does not mean i think Jason should go back to Gotham because then we would just have Under the Red hood to play out all over again. I think he should leave Gotham behind and do these things on a international scale. Without Batman being involved in the story it would be a great  seeing how that tactic works out and how far Jason could take it.


If he tries to control crime on an internacional scale, he will have entire teams on his head. No writer will be able to justify how he can walk Scott free. It`s better if he targets crime on an internacional scale, but freelance/adventurer/merc style. Which is kinda what they have been doing, except with two "buddy cops" at his side.

I`m not saying they can`t improve the direction of the formula, by the way. Editorial should always aim for that.

----------


## IndianaDrake

> See, he problem with this is that Grayson will ALWAYS return to Gotham and deal with crime Batman-style. That's why he becoming Batman was so well received, Grayson as character only has an end, succeding Bruce some way or another he could've faced a lot of things on the past but see him on the N52 his entire existance depends on Gotham and his relationship with Bruce. (and you're kidding yourself if you think than the spy angle will be permanent, sooner or later he will be back either as Nightwing or as Batman partner)
> 
> Jason lacks that baggage, he can be ANYTHING now add his former experiences with Batman and you have a character with TONS of potential that it only need to let goo the 'bat crutch' to see that potential realized.


See but whats so great about Grayson is he has baggage in almost every corner of DC. It would not be hard to give him his own corner of the universe that embraces other aspects of the character other than the Bat side. Also there is nothing wrong with Bat family crossovers as long as it does not derail the title. Besides Jason is just as tied to the Bat family. He is just as involved in crossovers as Dick is. In fact more so considering Grayson not even in Eternal. I actually do hope this spy direction sticks and its great. I know it is probably unlikely but stranger things have happened.

----------


## IndianaDrake

> What part of his personality you feel they watered down? The rage? I for one, thank them for it. He`s still a snarky SOB, but he`s more rounded because he`s experienced more now.
> 
> 
> 
> No one said he casts magic. What he now knows is mystical MA techniques. Something that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...Dick barely touched upon in his 75y history. But this, is the new52. 
> ...


Well there are plenty of Crime lords that in the DC universe that whole teams never go after. Jason knows how criminals get caught. It would not be  hard make sure there is no connection to him. The reason i like Jason is because his flaws make him the most easy to relate to inthe Bat family. I understand that this status quo may seem like a step back for the character if done wrong but if done right Jason would not be doing it in spite of Batman like in UtRH. He would be doing it because he legitimately believed it was the best way to make a real difference.

----------


## oasis1313

I think Jason should consider the entire rest of the Bat-Family a bunch of Girl Scouts (heck, even Brownie Scouts) kindergarten club.  Dick and Tim are the "good boys".  Damian is the biological son.  Jason is the black sheep, but he shouldn't lose any sleep over it.  He would be "let the pantywaists do their thing in Gotham City and I'll do mine someplace else where they won't cramp my style.

----------


## EdwardNigma

I want to see him as the vigilante with a grudge against Batman. Bring him back to what makes him interesting rather than just a black sheep of the Batman family. Let him go after and kill villains. Let him try to kill Batman if he gets in the way. THIS is what made the character interesting not a Robin who can be somewhat bad.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well there are plenty of Crime lords that in the DC universe that whole teams never go after.


Such as?




> Jason knows how criminals get caught. It would not be  hard make sure there is no connection to him.


His mentors would know sooner or later. Jason isn`t a Fisk kind of character. He`s not the brain that stays lurking in the shadow, he takes action upon it. And you can`t survive in that kind of lead without taking some risks and making connections. 




> The reason i like Jason is because his flaws make him the most easy to relate to inthe Bat family.


Agreed. 




> I understand that this status quo may seem like a step back for the character if done wrong but if done right Jason would not be doing it in spite of Batman like in UtRH. He would be doing it because he legitimately believed it was the best way to make a real difference.


It`s a fine line to deal with. Look at Catwoman in Eternal, she`ll be a crimelord (not necessarily a villain), *but* she got the whole Bat-stable on her and she`s not even as lethal as Jason tends to be on other criminals. But yes, he should be doing whatever he does, because it`s what he believes is true. But..they kind of do that in RHATO too. 

The small contention here seems to be that he doesn`t kill enough and that is what makes him stand out. His code of ethics, sarcasm, fire and lethality at the core do make him stand out, but in order for a character to grow, he should expand upon. He`s more than just a guy who can kill criminals. Maybe instead of being a "crimelord" he should lead a shadow squad. Like the League or similar. Maybe a new Al Caste. But how many would say that is giving him too much power?

----------


## Aioros22

> I want to see him as the vigilante with a grudge against Batman. Bring him back to what makes him interesting rather than just a black sheep of the Batman family. Let him go after and kill villains. Let him try to kill Batman if he gets in the way. THIS is what made the character interesting not a Robin who can be somewhat bad.


A grudge against Batman doesn`t honestly benefit him anymore. I mean, not more than the grudge he still carries around because Bruce is a dick. In order for him and Batman to be at extreme odds to the point where he would try to kill Batman, he would have to be still obesessing over the Joker somewhat. That is the breaking point among them. 

You know what I liked best in DOTF? Joker trying to rile Jason up and Jason telling him in the face it didn`t work any longer. That`s growth.

----------


## Godlike13

> See, he problem with this is that Grayson will ALWAYS return to Gotham and deal with crime Batman-style. That's why he becoming Batman was so well received, Grayson as character only has an end, succeding Bruce some way or another he could've faced a lot of things on the past but see him on the N52 his entire existance depends on Gotham and his relationship with Bruce. (and you're kidding yourself if you think than the spy angle will be permanent, sooner or later he will be back either as Nightwing or as Batman partner)
> 
> Jason lacks that baggage, he can be ANYTHING now add his former experiences with Batman and you have a character with TONS of potential that it only need to let goo the 'bat crutch' to see that potential realized.


Here the thing about that though. Jason is the one that runs around with a bat symbol on his chest, and who's book Bruce has appeared in more then in Nightwing, Teen Titans, or even Batgirl. Not to mention Jason has been pulled to Gotham just as much as Dick, and lately more so even. So just think about that next time before u start claiming Jason lacks that baggage.

And u say he can be anything now, yet what is he doing, running around with two of Dicks old friends doing random things. So he hasn't just showed dependence on Bruce, but on Dick too even.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Here the thing about that though. Jason is the one that runs around with a bat symbol on his chest, and who's book Bruce has appeared in more then in Nightwing, Teen Titans, or even Batgirl. Not to mention Jason has been pulled to Gotham just as much as Dick, and lately more so even. So just think about that next time before u start claiming Jason lacks that baggage.
> 
> And u say he can be anything now, yet what is he doing, running around with two of Dicks old friends doing random things. So he hasn't just showed dependence on Bruce, but on Dick too even.


You need to keep on mind that the Outlaws are pretty much new characters, there's barely any connection between Kory and Dick now while Roy is pretty much a stranger to Dick; story wise Jason is doing things for his own sake hanging around people he is comfortable, the same can be applied to the bat on his suit. There haven't been a single moment on the whole N52 where the bat becomes a major point for Jason characterization.

My comment about Grayson baggage is about how linked he is in the imaginary popular to Batman, talk to anyone old enough to be your grandparent or a little kid and they will have Batman & Robin firmly set on their minds, push the matter a little and Grayson's origin will come up. Extrapolate that with the character publishing story and Grayson's fate is to become Bruce succesor (he did on Morrison's run after and people was quite upset at him returning at the Nightwing persona). Jason on the other hand is a blank slate, really few people know about him and so there aren't expectations for him. You could try ANYTHING with him and outside of qulity issues on the plots you can't really argue about those stories going against his character. 

Contrast it with Tim's status on the N52, without the Batman connection his character fell apart, directionless, RHATO had a really strong start and its first arc work perfectly keeping Batman's references at the minimum, the space arc is also well received with people complaints coming about plots left hanging and no the characterizations, Lobdell's final half of his run was tie-central but that was editorial driven to appeal Snyder and even then he managed to close the chapter between Jason and Bruce and left things open for Jason to have a new beginning.

Tynion and Tomasi came and tied to trash everything and turn Jason on  another Batman-centric spin off but sales plummeted after that despite being something that people had claimed it was what Jason needed.

----------


## Mister BoMan

> I wish there was a big "Legends of Jason Todd" book available, that reprinted highlights from his career as Robin.


I would love that!!




> I disagree. I loathe the Nu52 with a passion, but what they did with Jason was a fantastic idea. I love Jason as Robin, but after Winnick finished UTRH, Jason wasn't really being written very well and quickly descended into faux Punisher territory. This new Jason is more likable and is more developed in my opinion.


I totally agree.

----------


## Godlike13

> You need to keep on mind that the Outlaws are pretty much new characters, there's barely any connection between Kory and Dick now while Roy is pretty much a stranger to Dick; story wise Jason is doing things for his own sake hanging around people he is comfortable, the same can be applied to the bat on his suit. There haven't been a single moment on the whole N52 where the bat becomes a major point for Jason characterization.
> 
> My comment about Grayson baggage is about how linked he is in the imaginary popular to Batman, talk to anyone old enough to be your grandparent or a little kid and they will have Batman & Robin firmly set on their minds, push the matter a little and Grayson's origin will come up. Extrapolate that with the character publishing story and Grayson's fate is to become Bruce succesor (he did on Morrison's run after and people was quite upset at him returning at the Nightwing persona). Jason on the other hand is a blank slate, really few people know about him and so there aren't expectations for him. You could try ANYTHING with him and outside of qulity issues on the plots you can't really argue about those stories going against his character. 
> 
> Contrast it with Tim's status on the N52, without the Batman connection his character fell apart, directionless, RHATO had a really strong start and its first arc work perfectly keeping Batman's references at the minimum, the space arc is also well received with people complaints coming about plots left hanging and no the characterizations, Lobdell's final half of his run was tie-central but that was editorial driven to appeal Snyder and even then he managed to close the chapter between Jason and Bruce and left things open for Jason to have a new beginning.
> 
> Tynion and Tomasi came and tied to trash everything and turn Jason on another Batman-centric spin off but sales plummeted after that despite being something that people had claimed it was what Jason needed.


They're not new characters though. They're there because they're not new but are recognizable. So ya they decided to rewite Kory to align her more with Jason, but Kory is still generally recognized as character associated with Dick and the Titans. U want to use Titans to help support Jason, ok fine, but there is a consequence in doing that.  

And Jason is not a blank slate. He to is linked to imagery popular to Batman, even if only a few people know about him, what the few people know most is that he's the Robin that died. Nor can they try anything with him, because he's not big enough to support anything. This is why he has a Bat symbol on his chest. He did not do very well as Robin, it was only decades later they finally found something that people seem to respond to with him. But more and more now they're getting away from it, and by doing things like repurposing known associates of Dick to connect to him, they are making him more like Dick. He's becoming redundant. As inconsistent and Red Hood might have been before, one thing he was not though was redundant. He was doing things non of the other Robins could do. And thats just not the case anymore.

It'll be really interesting to see what happens to Jason, Kory, and Roy once RHatO runs its course.

----------


## IndianaDrake

> Such as?
> 
> 
> 
> His mentors would know sooner or later. Jason isn`t a Fisk kind of character. He`s not the brain that stays lurking in the shadow, he takes action upon it. And you can`t survive in that kind of lead without taking some risks and making connections. 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. 
> ...


If there were not any crime lords out there then there wouldn't be any crime for people like batman to fight would there. Jason could evolve in the story to be a very capable crime lord. One who actively avoids crime fighters. It wouldn't be to difficult to figure out away around it. I do think your right though, a Jason leading his own shadow squad or Al Caste would be preferable. Over all i just want a more harsh Jason. Not the Punisher level but just some one who views crime much differently then the rest of the Batfamily because of his upbringing and past experiences. Its because these differences that he handles crime differently.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason should just be allowed to do his own thing, not tied to Gotham or dragged into its claptrap.  They should write him as a character with no fear and no limits.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Jason should just be allowed to do his own thing, not tied to Gotham or dragged into its claptrap.  They should write him as a character with no fear and no limits.


I agree,lot's of good debate going around here though

I just want to be able to enjoy Jason Todd stories,the last story of Red Hood I enjoyed was Zero Hour before that it was the Court of Owls tie-in

----------


## Neowing

> Jason should just be allowed to do his own thing, not tied to Gotham or dragged into its claptrap.  They should write him as a character with no fear and no limits.


I agree. Jason has huge potential, hes different from all the other batfamily members. I personally would love if he became a space pirate or created the DC version of Starjammers.

----------


## oasis1313

I don't care for sweet likeable Jason--they can save that for Dick Grayson.  I like my Jason to be cranky, sarcastic, and totally badass.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I don't care for sweet likeable Jason--they can save that for Dick Grayson.  I like my Jason to be cranky, sarcastic, and totally badass.


That sound like the Judd Winick Jason lol

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't care for sweet likeable Jason--they can save that for Dick Grayson.  I like my Jason to be cranky, sarcastic, and totally badass.


That sounds like New52 Jason. Only time he was "sweet" was when Bruce admitted he never felt bad for having taken a chance with him. Which I am fine with. Jason isn`t a robot, a father figure telling a stranded son such a thing after the bad blood would make anyone boil. 

The badass, it depends how badass you view him to be and what kind. He`s a bit different than before, but no less of a badass to me.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> That sounds like New52 Jason. Only time he was "sweet" was when Bruce admitted he never felt bad for having taken a chance with him. Which I am fine with. Jason isn`t a robot, a father figure telling a stranded son such a thing after the bad blood would make anyone boil. 
> 
> The badass, it depends how badass you view him to be and what kind. He`s a bit different than before, but no less of a badass to me.


interesting points

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't care for sweet likeable Jason--they can save that for Dick Grayson.  I like my Jason to be cranky, sarcastic, and totally badass.


I wouldn't call Jason sweet not even now. He's a bit more calm, less angsty and maybe more level-headed but certainly not "sweet".  He is also still cranky, sarcastic and a badass. That hasn't changed or at least I don't really feel that it has. What has changed is his perspective and how he views himself.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I like that they made him more level headed, but at the same time he's always struck me as more a loner. Or rather more of a solo artist. Not that he can't work in a team, but he's more likely to get things done on his own, or with small amount of help. I don't know how I feel about this Jason. I like and don't like aspects of him. Losing the angst was a plus but I kinda always thought it would make more sense for him to be more a daredevil like character in that he deals with things that Batman may never seem to have time for. Have him be the red hood but also working as a PI, that might be interesting.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I like that they made him more level headed, but at the same time he's always struck me as more a loner. Or rather more of a solo artist. Not that he can't work in a team, but he's more likely to get things done on his own, or with small amount of help. I don't know how I feel about this Jason. I like and don't like aspects of him. Losing the angst was a plus but I kinda always thought it would make more sense for him to be more a daredevil like character in that he deals with things that Batman may never seem to have time for. Have him be the red hood but also working as a PI, that might be interesting.


Dude that would be awesome!! The untitled could be his version of The Hand and The All Caste could his version of The Chaste and being a globe traveling PI could be cool

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I wouldn't call Jason sweet not even now. He's a bit more calm, less angsty and maybe more level-headed but certainly not "sweet".  He is also still cranky, sarcastic and a badass. That hasn't changed or at least I don't really feel that it has. What has changed is his perspective and how he views himself.


One thing I don't like about the New 52 Jason is how skinny he is,I liked when he was more muscular,he looked more intimidating that way.

----------


## oasis1313

> One thing I don't like about the New 52 Jason is how skinny he is,I liked when he was more muscular,he looked more intimidating that way.


I liked him buff, too.  Maybe he's got manorexia in the New 52.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I liked him buff, too.  Maybe he's got manorexia in the New 52.


lol he needs to eat some meat

----------


## Aioros22

> lol he needs to eat some meat


This always reminds me the Turtles/Robins comparisons. Dick is the Leonardo type whereas Jason is the Raphael.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> One thing I don't like about the New 52 Jason is how skinny he is,I liked when he was more muscular,he looked more intimidating that way.


I liked him a bit more muscular but then you get into the problem of him being drawn like a hardcore bodybuilder and I'd rather artists stay away from that myself. Reasonably muscular is fine but some artists have gone overboard with it in the past especially on Bat characters and for some of those, like Dick Grayson for example, it just looks wrong.

----------


## oasis1313

> I liked him a bit more muscular but then you get into the problem of him being drawn like a hardcore bodybuilder and I'd rather artists stay away from that myself. Reasonably muscular is fine but some artists have gone overboard with it in the past especially on Bat characters and for some of those, like Dick Grayson for example, it just looks wrong.


I think only Bruce should look like a hardcore body builder.  A huge amount of bulk would get in Dick's way as an acrobat.  Tim hasn't had time to build that much body mass.  But Jason looks like he's been in a Nazi concentration camp lately.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Dude that would be awesome!! The untitled could be his version of The Hand and The All Caste could his version of The Chaste and being a globe traveling PI could be cool


Would also fit in nicely with the idea of his past. While Bruce is the "Bigger Threat" Jason could have been the guy that dealt with the issue or the fall out. Lets say there's an incident with Two-Face. Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, they all deal with the larger threat that is Two face. But what about the thugs that come out of this? They were working with Two-face so they probably know ways to hide out. That's where Jason comes in, he deals with the fall outs as well as other things. I also thought as far as subplots would have gone he probably would work in the, and since I can't remember the name of the section in Gotham I'm borrowing from DD again, "Hell's Kitchen" maybe with some sort of group that's trying to clean the place up some. I can totally see him possibly being a sarcastic mentor to some teens that were like him, maybe paying them to do work for him as a PI. They can get into places and hear things that he can't. Think Baker Street irregulars with a twist. 

And Globe travel would be great too. Some stories could be down to earth ones in Gotham, others -because of the LoA connections (Is that still a thing?) -could be anywhere in the world and Jason would be dealing with them in his own way. Sometimes he works with other crime fighters, maybe even local ones, other times it's a solo mission. I could totally see him and Helena B working together at points over something to do with the Mafia.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I liked him a bit more muscular but then you get into the problem of him being drawn like a hardcore bodybuilder and I'd rather artists stay away from that myself. Reasonably muscular is fine but some artists have gone overboard with it in the past especially on Bat characters and for some of those, like Dick Grayson for example, it just looks wrong.





> I think only Bruce should look like a hardcore body builder.  A huge amount of bulk would get in Dick's way as an acrobat.  Tim hasn't had time to build that much body mass.  But Jason looks like he's been in a Nazi concentration camp lately.


Grayson should have a leaner build due to his agility. Tim is a teen so like dick he would need to be lean. Damian's a kid, no six pack on this kid please it just looks really really weird! As for Bruce and Jason, I would say Bruce should be a bit more bulky than Dick but you can't have him too bulky because of what he does. He's not a body builder, he's a martial artist and as such has to have tighter muscles that more easily move for fast reflexes. Jason I always pictured build like a runner and swimmer. He would have to be fast and lean, but not too lean. Most of his strength would come from his arms and legs, rather then the torso or shoulders.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Would also fit in nicely with the idea of his past. While Bruce is the "Bigger Threat" Jason could have been the guy that dealt with the issue or the fall out. Lets say there's an incident with Two-Face. Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, they all deal with the larger threat that is Two face. But what about the thugs that come out of this? They were working with Two-face so they probably know ways to hide out. That's where Jason comes in, he deals with the fall outs as well as other things. I also thought as far as subplots would have gone he probably would work in the, and since I can't remember the name of the section in Gotham I'm borrowing from DD again, "Hell's Kitchen" maybe with some sort of group that's trying to clean the place up some. I can totally see him possibly being a sarcastic mentor to some teens that were like him, maybe paying them to do work for him as a PI. They can get into places and hear things that he can't. Think Baker Street irregulars with a twist. 
> 
> And Globe travel would be great too. Some stories could be down to earth ones in Gotham, others -because of the LoA connections (Is that still a thing?) -could be anywhere in the world and Jason would be dealing with them in his own way. Sometimes he works with other crime fighters, maybe even local ones, other times it's a solo mission. I could totally see him and Helena B working together at points over something to do with the Mafia.


He need to send the post straight to DC editorial.His team up with Helena Bertinelli was an assume addition

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I liked him a bit more muscular but then you get into the problem of him being drawn like a hardcore bodybuilder and I'd rather artists stay away from that myself. Reasonably muscular is fine but some artists have gone overboard with it in the past especially on Bat characters and for some of those, like Dick Grayson for example, it just looks wrong.


I thought he was perfect in Under the Hood but in Batman and Robin he looked way to bulky.Even before he went to Arkham

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Grayson should have a leaner build due to his agility. Tim is a teen so like dick he would need to be lean. Damian's a kid, no six pack on this kid please it just looks really really weird! As for Bruce and Jason, I would say Bruce should be a bit more bulky than Dick but you can't have him too bulky because of what he does. He's not a body builder, he's a martial artist and as such has to have tighter muscles that more easily move for fast reflexes. Jason I always pictured build like a runner and swimmer. He would have to be fast and lean, but not too lean. Most of his strength would come from his arms and legs, rather then the torso or shoulders.


We're on the same page then. That's pretty much how I see them all in my mind. Unfortunately, not a lot of artists have been drawing them the way I "see" them in my head and there have been a few times that I've looked at some artists' renderings and shook my head over them. 




> I thought he was perfect in Under the Hood but in Batman and Robin he looked way to bulky.Even before he went to Arkham


I agree with you there. He shouldn't be overly bulky in my opinion.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> We're on the same page then. That's pretty much how I see them all in my mind. Unfortunately, not a lot of artists have been drawing them the way I "see" them in my head and there have been a few times that I've looked at some artists' renderings and shook my head over them. 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you there. He shouldn't be overly bulky in my opinion.


I do think he's just way too skinny in Outlaws.It looked really awkward when he threw Suzi Su around lol

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I do think he's just way too skinny in Outlaws.It looked really awkward when he threw Suzi Su around lol


Almost anyone would have looked awkward trying to throw her though.  :Smile:

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Almost anyone would have looked awkward trying to throw her though.


Lol so true

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I found curious your claims about Jason being too skinny, while Rocafort's art is pretty stilizated his Jason was in top shape (he also looks somewhat buff on the first issue), Green's did look skinny but then again, his stint on the book wasn't that well received. Kirkham's was also in top shape, the less we talk about Gopez' the better while Sandoval's and Silva's closer to the classic superhero build. And after reading today's Action Comics I'm really looking forward for Kollins' issue.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I found curious your claims about Jason being too skinny, while Rocafort's art is pretty stilizated his Jason was in top shape (he also looks somewhat buff on the first issue), Green's did look skinny but then again, his stint on the book wasn't that well received. Kirkham's was also in top shape, the less we talk about Gopez' the better while Sandoval's and Silva's closer to the classic superhero build. And after reading today's Action Comics I'm really looking forward for Kollins' issue.


Yeah the first issue when he had on the green shirt was cool but at times he drew him too skinny imo

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If this first interaction between Jason and Bruce is gonna set the tone of Jason role on Eternal, I'm out. We're back to the Jason's defining trait is being the angry member of the batfamily. the bit about Jason's last time on the mansion being him breaking in messing up with the security made me cringe, terrible all around. Gonna give Seeley's a shot to made me change my mind but I'm not too hopeful.

Is gonna be good for those who want asshole Jason back I guess.

----------


## godisawesome

Seems more like a middle-line Jason to me than an outright asshole Jason. He still explicitly came to the manor because Bruce called for him, and he seems perfectly fine with watching out for Babs. Some rough and tumble behavior belongs with the character regardless, and I like a little 'tude from the kid, even if it is mostly for show.

----------


## Aioros22

If I may:




> http://imgur.com/aVzkmh0
> 
> Eternal also took a dive on art quality.


Going by this page, not sure I agree with you Dark. I am actually a little trilled to see that Bruce is the first to shoot in and Jason (again) acts the bigger man and tells him he doesn`t care about an argument with the situation at hand. And lo and behold! Bruce admits that Jason "knows a thing or two about rage" but he`s overcome it.  

This is what I care the most, acknowledgement that Jason moved past certain aspects of his former self. I also mentioned in the other thread not being sure about Jason being too willing to help Barbara, but thinking about it, I`m okay with it. Family is family and having lost both Damin and Dick (as far as he knows) recently, I think it would be more out of character Jason refusing because he`s got his own stuff going. 

Priorities.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If I may:
> 
> 
> 
> Going by this page, not sure I agree with you Dark. I am actually a little trilled to see that Bruce is the first to shoot in and Jason (again) acts the bigger man and tells him he doesn`t care about an argument with the situation at hand. And lo and behold! Bruce admits that Jason "knows a thing or two about rage" but he`s overcome it.  
> 
> This is what I care the most, acknowledgement that Jason moved past certain aspects of his former self. I also mentioned in the other thread not being sure about Jason being too willing to help Barbara, but thinking about it, I`m okay with it. Family is family and having lost both Damin and Dick (as far as he knows) recently, I think it would be more out of character Jason refusing because he`s got his own stuff going. 
> 
> Priorities.


The whole interaction feel really bad written when compared to the one they had on the Batman/Superman annual, and the point is that they don't need to keep showing who's the bigger man (again how the annual showed up) and the whole comment about Jason letting him in comes from nowhere since all the times he has showed up on the mansion were because he was called. Honestly it felt like Jason really was a stand-in for Grayson with the animosity, digs and mention about rage were throw in to make him Jason.

For me was really lazy writing.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I didn't read any animosity between the two of them there just a little bit of tension maybe. Jason was clearly annoyed at Bruce for calling and thinking that Jason would be happy to drop whatever he was doing to help him out but I see nothing there that indicates anything other than that. I also found it very encouraging that Bruce acknowledged that Jason has dealt with his rage and that he trusts Jason enough now to maybe help Babs deal with her own. That's a shift in how Bruce views Jason and maybe also indicate a shift in how writers look at him as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I didn't read any animosity between the two of them there just a little bit of tension maybe. Jason was clearly annoyed at Bruce for calling and thinking that Jason would be happy to drop whatever he was doing to help him out but I see nothing there that indicates anything other than that.* I also found it very encouraging that Bruce acknowledged that Jason has dealt with his rage and that he trusts Jason enough now to maybe help Babs deal with her own*. That's a shift in how Bruce views Jason and maybe also indicate a shift in how writers look at him as well.


This is my problem I don't want it to be acknowledged, I want for everyone to move forward that. In fact remove that line and the scene would be great as it stands now I got the impression that we're getting a one trick pony Jason again.

----------


## Dzetoun

> This is my problem I don't want it to be acknowledged, I want for everyone to move forward that. In fact remove that line and the scene would be great as it stands now I got the impression that we're getting a one trick pony Jason again.


I understand what you mean.  Unfortunately, there is an objective situation to be dealt with here.  Winick saddled Jason with a heavy burden of issues, mostly related to rage, in his resurrection story.  That might not have been such a problem had there been a timely and effective follow up to deal with the issues of a resurrected Jason and take all that off the table.  But, for whatever set of reasons, there was not such an Act II to UTRH, and the character was left to marinate in all that for an extended time.  It's true that in the New 52 the characters have been moving forward from that, but it's taken a while and progressed in fits, starts, and reversals (I'm looking at you, Tomasi).  For most people, rage is still the dominant image of Jason and his relationship with Bruce.  It has reached the point that it has to be explicitly acknowledged before you can move beyond it.  In fact, it will probably have to be explicitly acknowledged several times more.  Maybe a good model here is Hal Jordan.  After his return, there was a while when his time as Parallax had to be explicitly mentioned in almost every arc so that it could be put aside.  But eventually he moved beyond that, and hopefully Jason and Bruce will move beyond there situation as well.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This is my problem I don't want it to be acknowledged, I want for everyone to move forward that. In fact remove that line and the scene would be great as it stands now I got the impression that we're getting a one trick pony Jason again.


No, a one trick pony Jason would have come into Wayne manor with guns blazing while yelling about how things wouldn't have gotten to the point they have in Gotham if Bruce would just let go of his "antiquated morality" and kill criminals instead of letting them live. :Stick Out Tongue:  Bruce acknowledging that Jason has dealt with his issues seems more to me like he's reaffirming his trust in Jason rather than a sign that things are back to square one with them. I think on some level Jason needs to hear that he is trusted by Bruce now in spite of what may have happened in the past. They have only just reconciled and they still have issues to work through but Jason feeling that Bruce trusts him is an important step in the right direction I think and he likely needs to have that trust reaffirmed once in a while.




> It has reached the point that it has to be explicitly acknowledged before you can move beyond it.  In fact, it will probably have to be explicitly acknowledged several times more.  Maybe a good model here is Hal Jordan.  After his return, there was a while when his time as Parallax had to be explicitly mentioned in almost every arc so that it could be put aside.  But eventually he moved beyond that, and hopefully Jason and Bruce will move beyond there situation as well.


I think Bruce's acknowledgement here is part of that ongoing process myself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No, a one trick pony Jason would have come into Wayne manor with guns blazing while yelling about how things wouldn't have gotten to the point they have in Gotham if Bruce would just let go of his "antiquated morality" and kill criminals instead of letting them live. Bruce acknowledging that Jason has dealt with his issues seems more to me like he's reaffirming his trust in Jason rather than a sign that things are back to square one with them. I think on some level Jason needs to hear that he is trusted by Bruce now in spite of what may have happened in the past. They have only just reconciled and they still have issues to work through but Jason feeling that Bruce trusts him is an important step in the right direction I think and he likely needs to have that trust reaffirmed once in a while.


I have to disagree here, Lobdell and Pak made a point of Jason being beyond needing any sort of approvation from Bruce (probably Pfeifer too but that aspect didn't played a part on his story) and Bruce's characterization has been one of expressing himself through actions, not words. Having that dependence as the foundations for Jason's role on Eternal is undermining (if subtly) his character development and putting him back on the DCU characterization. 

Considering that Tynion's the one calling the shots on Eternal and that the scrapped Nightwing issue showed how he likes to make characterization work through the relationships with other characters (Dick/Jason for the Outlaws, Bruce/Dick for Tim and Jason) I'm not hopeful for this.

Still, I admit that I'm overreacting a bit and I'll pass final judgment until I see the first Seeley penned issue.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason shouldn't NEED squat from Bruce.  Bruce had his chance to be a good dad and blew it (yet again)--now Jason is a MAN in his own right.  Maybe Dick and Tim need Bruce's approval and reassurance, but Jason dug his way out of a six-foot hole all by himself.  He doesn't have to prove anything to Bruce.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason shouldn't NEED squat from Bruce.  Bruce had his chance to be a good dad and blew it (yet again)--now Jason is a MAN in his own right.  Maybe Dick and Tim need Bruce's approval and reassurance, but Jason dug his way out of a six-foot hole all by himself.  He doesn't have to prove anything to Bruce.


Jason doesn`t need the approval, Loedbell set it up as much right in the first two issues of RATHO. However he also wrote the fallout of DOTF at which I think at this point it`s Bruce who is in need to let Jason knows that he *knows*. 

So, while he needs no approval, it doesn`t mean it doesn`t feel good to have the only rigtheous paternal figure he`s ever had, issues aside, to say it. Having it spelt out here and there Is a trick of the trade aimed at readers.

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason doesn`t need the approval, Loedbell set it up as much right in the first two issues of RATHO. However he also wrote the fallout of DOTF at which I think at this point it`s Bruce who is in need to let Jason knows that he *knows*. 
> 
> So, while he needs no approval, it doesn`t mean it doesn`t feel good to have the only rigtheous paternal figure he`s ever had, issues aside, to say it. Having it spelt out here and there Is a trick of the trade aimed at readers.


You're right, a little praise is nice, wherever it comes from.  But I'd like to see Jason pretty much divorced from the Bat-Line as Dick is now; I think he can fly solo and carry his own book without Batman, Roy, or Kori.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Jason shouldn't NEED squat from Bruce.  Bruce had his chance to be a good dad and blew it (yet again)--now Jason is a MAN in his own right.  Maybe Dick and Tim need Bruce's approval and reassurance, but Jason dug his way out of a six-foot hole all by himself.  He doesn't have to prove anything to Bruce.


This post was Legend

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I actually liked this weeks's Outlaws. I wanna see Lobdell write a Jason Todd solo and create him his own supporting cast. Well he kind of already did

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I actually liked this weeks's Outlaws. I wanna see Lobdell write a Jason Todd solo and create him his own supporting cast. Well he kind of already did


Yeah, RHatO is Lobdell's best book and it's the one book I don't think he should have ever left.

----------


## Aioros22

I actually think a backup solo style for Jason would be cool. It`s awesome he got people he can trust, so I definatly want that to stay, but being who he is, tagging some business on his own also works fine. Once in a while knowing about a small slave ring or drugs that need to be dusted? Sounds like fun for the weekend.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I actually think a backup solo style for Jason would be cool. It`s awesome he got people he can trust, so I definatly want that to stay, but being who he is, tagging some business on his own also works fine. Once in a while knowing about a small slave ring or drugs that need to be dusted? Sounds like fun for the weekend.


Solo backups for all three of them could be fun and interesting actually.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Kory soooo digs Jason

----------


## oasis1313

> Kory soooo digs Jason


But doesn't Kory dig ANYTHING male?

----------


## Aioros22

> But doesn't Kory dig ANYTHING male?


Only the ones she kisses. This book is such a threesome love letter in places. Loedbell you sly devil. 

By the way..can anyone make a Eternal#11-smiling-mask- Red Hood avatar? His appearance was gold.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> But doesn't Kory dig ANYTHING male?


LOL!!!! I liked the team Jason was leading for a little with Cheshire Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva....would be cool if Conner Hawk was added

----------


## oasis1313

> LOL!!!! I liked the team Jason was leading for a little with Cheshire Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva....would be cool if Conner Hawk was added


Yeah, I think it's time to shake up the Outlaws' roster a little.  Roy and Kory feel a little stale to me, the dynamics are established, I like Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva for a change.

----------


## donmeca2020

I never had any love for any of the Robins... quite frankly Batman IMO doesn't need nor has ever needed a sidekick.

However Jason Todd as Red Hood, has really gotten me interested. i only have 2 issues of Red Hood and the outlaws, but i'm actually considering to start getting into his series as well. i do however feel Red Hood should have His own series, no group affiliations. just plain old Red Hood on his own missions.

----------


## oasis1313

> I never had any love for any of the Robins... quite frankly Batman IMO doesn't need nor has ever needed a sidekick.
> 
> However Jason Todd as Red Hood, has really gotten me interested. i only have 2 issues of Red Hood and the outlaws, but i'm actually considering to start getting into his series as well. i do however feel Red Hood should have His own series, no group affiliations. just plain old Red Hood on his own missions.


I agree with you 1000%.  Especially with going on his OWN missions.  He shouldn't be an obedient little lamb like Dick or Tim; he shouldn't allow himself to be accountable to anybody, and giving him sidekicks just gives him another millstone around his neck.  A book called Nightwing and the Outlaws, with Dick, Roy, and Kory would work better than this.  Jason can carry a solo book and doesn't need this dead weight having to carry Roy and Kory.

----------


## donmeca2020

exactly !!!  i think really Jason is kind of on Batman's level with the coolness factor. he also gives me a slight Deathstroke vibe as well. him having a group, is blah to me. 

I will however admit i  LOVED this past issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws cover  :Big Grin:  i loved it so much i hunted down a pic of it and made it my lock screen photo on my galaxy S3

----------


## Kid A

> Yeah, I think it's time to shake up the Outlaws' roster a little.  Roy and Kory feel a little stale to me, the dynamics are established, I like Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva for a change.


God I hope we never see ThunderCats Bronze Tiger ever again.

----------


## ABH

> God I hope we never see ThunderCats Bronze Tiger ever again.


Yeah, I like Bronze Tiger and the ThunderCats, but not merged together, thanks.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I wish Bronze Tiger would have suck around with Jason

----------


## godisawesome

So you guys read the recent solicitations that say Todd's going to be a) taking Venom and b) teaming up with Supergirl? What do you think?

----------


## Kurisu

> So you guys read the recent solicitations that say Todd's going to be a) taking Venom and b) teaming up with Supergirl? What do you think?


Like most things DC, I think "why?"

I'm glad he's making friends and expanding his presence in the DCU though.

----------


## oasis1313

> So you guys read the recent solicitations that say Todd's going to be a) taking Venom and b) teaming up with Supergirl? What do you think?


What's Venom?

----------


## nepenthes

> What's Venom?

----------


## oasis1313

Jason can go to Gotham City and break Bruce's back again.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So you guys read the recent solicitations that say Todd's going to be a) taking Venom and b) teaming up with Supergirl? What do you think?


I like him teaming up with Supergirl and that solicit makes the one for _Red Hood and the Outlaws_ make a little more sense but I feel like the Venom angle came out of left field possibly as something that was editorially mandated (?) IDK. What I do know is that I don't like it at all and it feels extremely out of place for him.

----------


## Kalethas31

> So you guys read the recent solicitations that say Todd's going to be a) taking Venom and b) teaming up with Supergirl? What do you think?


jason and kara are awesome

http://i.newsarama.com/images/i/000/...jpg?1405357600

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Man,I wish Lobdell would write a Jason solo

----------


## Aioros22

Jason reuniting with Kara is funtastic news. They were written as having good chemistry in the Superman/Batman Annual and now they are picking up where they left. The Venom part is what I have doubts about. If it is some last resort to help take down a powered opponent, maybe. But otherwise? Jason to me wouldn`t care about those kind of shortcuts. He`s a guy who crawled up his whole life. He knows better than most the price of it. Wait and see. 

I wonder if he`ll meet Bane on the way.

----------


## byrd156

> Jason can go to Gotham City and break Bruce's back again.


Knightfall 2.0, I'd read that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Guys, guys, JASON IS IN ARKHAM KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/dZ2lyXe.jpg

Love that design

----------


## ABH

> Guys, guys, JASON IS IN ARKHAM KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/dZ2lyXe.jpg
> 
> Love that design


That does look pretty damn cool.

----------


## Godlike13

That looks sweet. Ruthless  :Cool:

----------


## Kurisu

Wow, he looks fantastic.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm betting they didn't gave him the helmet because it would've made him look way too similar to the Arkham Knight (although if the pattern holds, Jason will have an actual role on the main game and thus the odds of him being the Arkham Knight have just skyrocketed)

----------


## godisawesome

I figure this means he's either Arkham Knight, or alternatively were going to finally have another media aside from yo young Justice embrace the idea of 3+ Robins.

If this is his last game, I'd really like to see the Batfamily rally to him.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Wonder if Jason's gameplay is going to be a bit more third-person shooterish, given his guns and all.

----------


## nepenthes

This is an excellent design. All of the Robins so far (inc Nighting) have recieved very modern yet thematically on-point conceptualizations.  Can't wait to see Damian with a bit of Arabic and/or ninja stylings.

----------


## FHIZ

> Wonder if Jason's gameplay is going to be a bit more third-person shooterish, given his guns and all.


Probably not. They'll probably treat his guns the same way they treat any character's projectiles.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I like the new look.It looks very gangsta lol

----------


## LoneNecromancer

Not entirely sure what to make of that hood, but nice that Jason finally gets to show up, people have been begging for him to show up in the Arkham games for ages.

----------


## godisawesome

Y'know, now that the Arkham series includes three Robins, I have one demand for the game.

Let's see the Batfamily annihilate some fools as a team. I want to see Tim bo staff some poor sonuvagun into a clothesline by Jason before getting stunned by Dick. I want some moment that makes the casual gamer go "Holy----! The Robins are badasses! I want to see all of them in the movies!"

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Now he needs to be in the next Injustice game

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

DC Collectibles just revealed Arkham Knight Red Hood's figure, giving us a better look to Jason:

http://i.imgur.com/A3OtzJr.jpg

It seems that the Arkham designs are cosplayer friendly and is noticeable with Jason. He went from a tactical armor (personally my favorite superhero suit ever) to a biker outfit with guns and a red bat painted on the shirt. Looks cool but kind of hard to take seriously (unless Jason is suicidal, that is), and the hood-helmet combo is kind of goofy

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> DC Collectibles just revealed Arkham Knight Red Hood's figure, giving us a better look to Jason:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/A3OtzJr.jpg
> 
> It seems that the Arkham designs are cosplayer friendly and is noticeable with Jason. He went from a tactical armor (personally my favorite superhero suit ever) to a biker outfit with guns and a red bat painted on the shirt. Looks cool but kind of hard to take seriously (unless Jason is suicidal, that is), and the hood-helmet combo is kind of goofy


That's Mattel's "Multiverse" retail figure. They're like Star Wars toy size. It's not DC Collectibles. They may have one to show off tomorrow, though.

----------


## godisawesome

I always thought that his first Red Hood look was wearing non decorated body-armor under his jacket, but some people drew it as a regular t-shirt. And. I kind of like the continuity of the Robins having hoods in the Arkhamverse.

Is it too much to hope he's in Gotham because he knows Batman might need help? Just some brief dialogue and tension between him and Batman or Tim or Dick would establish his usual antagonistic nature, and his story DLC would be awesome if it was their version of Under the Red Hood, with Batman as the final boss. Considering how desperate the situation in Gotham is supposed to get, maybe he represents that Godzilla Threshold: the situation is desperate enough that almost anything is acceptable to the alternative of losing.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> I always thought that his first Red Hood look was wearing non decorated body-armor under his jacket, but some people drew it as a regular t-shirt. And. I kind of like the continuity of the Robins having hoods in the Arkhamverse.
> 
> Is it too much to hope he's in Gotham because he knows Batman might need help? Just some brief dialogue and tension between him and Batman or Tim or Dick would establish his usual antagonistic nature, and his story DLC would be awesome if it was their version of Under the Red Hood, with Batman as the final boss. Considering how desperate the situation in Gotham is supposed to get, maybe he represents that Godzilla Threshold: the situation is desperate enough that almost anything is acceptable to the alternative of losing.


It's more likely that he's the Arkham Knight and the DLC is a prequel explaining what happened leading up to it. DLC is always set before or after the main story.

The first Red Hood Jason outfit was supposed to be an underarmor top with a zipper, possibly with light armor underneath.

----------


## godisawesome

Him being the Arkham Knight would contradict the claim that the Knight is an original character. Not that they haven't used smokescreen before; Joker-Mask showed that pretty clearly.

If he is the Knight, then I'd prefer they just admit that and reveal it in the trailers.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I wanted him to be Arkham Knight because the Arkham Knight looks so cool

----------


## Kid A

This is fantastic. 

10 years ago, I would have never expected Jason to get this big.  The animated movie has done wonders for him.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Now he needs to be in the next Injustice game


I was disappointed when it turned out that the rumors of a second Injustice season pass DLCs that included RH were just rumors

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This is fantastic. 
> 
> 10 years ago, I would have never expected Jason to get this big.  The animated movie has done wonders for him.


I agree with you on both counts there. The UtRH movie did a lot of good for him and made a lot of people into fans of the character. Having him as a character an Arkham game will only add to that so I'm glad to see him finally making an appearance. I also really like that costume.




> Now he needs to be in the next Injustice game


Yeah, he does.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m so happy with the news. Finally! Fans have been begging for him since the first game. I hope he ends up being the Knight, but even if he`s not, the inclusion of Jason in the new game is another stepping stone.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I`m so happy with the news. Finally! Fans have been begging for him since the first game. I hope he ends up being the Knight, but even if he`s not, the inclusion of Jason in the new game is another stepping stone.


I couldn't agree more

----------


## dantefrizzoli

Todd in Injustice - thatll be the only character I play... Unless Bizzaro comes in...

----------


## CapeandCowl

I grew up on the Jason Todd character so I am happy he is getting some respect now. I was one of those comic book fans who owned a well-read copy of A Death in the Family, and I must have cried when Jason died. That was a long time ago now, but I always felt his character was more interesting than most. I have seen Under the Red Hood anime and was very satisfied with it, though that ending was almost enough to get me teary-eyed again!

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

It seemed like a lot of people's dislike for the character disappeared when the UTRH movie came out.I was always a fan from the beginning,he was always easy to pull for.

----------


## Aioros22

Can`t wait for the playlable moveset, I hope they make it versatible between his guns and blades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F-wkUq1yM8

Jensen cast for Knight`s voice? How much is this especulation?

----------


## godisawesome

> It seemed like a lot of people's dislike for the character disappeared when the UTRH movie came out.I was always a fan from the beginning,he was always easy to pull for.


It's to Winick's credit that he realized he could write the story better a second time around, and it shows. Instead of having so many detours and sidesteps, we got a streamlined family saga, with a far better explanation for Jason's return, a better use of the Joker that made up for his jobbing in the comic, and a more visceral confrontation at the end. It proves, in my opinion, that Winick's best work is when he's given a chance to reevaluate his decisions and has a strong editorial group behind him. He's got skills; he just needs someone to temper some of his more banal story-impulses.

----------


## godisawesome

> Can`t wait for the playlable moveset, I hope they make it versatible between his guns and blades.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F-wkUq1yM8
> 
> Jensen cast for Knight`s voice? How much is this especulation?


Probably all speculation; the only source I can find is Imdb, and that's not reliable.

Hopefully, he's at least voicing Red Hood in some cutscenes during the game proper and his DLC.

And does anyone else want him to be separate from Arkham Knight? Because I think putting him in new armor would still be kind of lame if instead we could see the prodigal son's reaction to his father having an unexpected and hostile successor.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> It's to Winick's credit that he realized he could write the story better a second time around, and it shows. Instead of having so many detours and sidesteps, we got a streamlined family saga, with a far better explanation for Jason's return, a better use of the Joker that made up for his jobbing in the comic, and a more visceral confrontation at the end. It proves, in my opinion, that Winick's best work is when he's given a chance to reevaluate his decisions and has a strong editorial group behind him. He's got skills; he just needs someone to temper some of his more banal story-impulses.


Yup,I think Green Arrow Superman and Zatanna appearances were all unnecessary.And I think had it not been for Infinite Crisis he would have never used the Superboy Prime punch.The Lazarus Pit was always the right way to go

----------


## Tony Stark

> I agree with you on both counts there. The UtRH movie did a lot of good for him and made a lot of people into fans of the character. Having him as a character an Arkham game will only add to that so I'm glad to see him finally making an appearance. I also really like that costume.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, he does.


Agreed on all accounts. When I used to tell people the Jason Todd was my Robin and one of my all time favorite characters. The looks I would get would be insane. It's amazing to see how far he has come. Now everyone is getting a chance to see it.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I really wonder how they will make him use his guns in Arkham Knight

----------


## CapeandCowl

> Agreed on all accounts. When I used to tell people the Jason Todd was my Robin and one of my all time favorite characters. The looks I would get would be insane. It's amazing to see how far he has come. Now everyone is getting a chance to see it.



I always enjoyed reading the mid-80s run of comic books to feature Jason's Robin. It took some time to realise he was not Dick Grayson as the first issue I recall reading was around 1983 and introduced Todd as the Boy Wonder. If it had been a different era, one could almost say it was a reboot! I grew up on the Jason Todd Robin and as a result, he was my favorite  of all Robins and still is, past and present.

----------


## oasis1313

I can't watch or read the Crowbar scene.  It really upset me to see a child being beaten to death.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I can't watch or read the Crowbar scene.  It really upset me to see a child being beaten to death.


Yes, that was a bad decision on the part of Starlin and DC.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I always enjoyed reading the mid-80s run of comic books to feature Jason's Robin. It took some time to realise he was not Dick Grayson as the first issue I recall reading was around 1983 and introduced Todd as the Boy Wonder. If it had been a different era, one could almost say it was a reboot! I grew up on the Jason Todd Robin and as a result, he was my favorite  of all Robins and still is, past and present.


Same here my friend. I loved when they made him get caught taking the tires off of the Batmobile

----------


## godisawesome

I feel that story needs to be retold a bit just to emphasize the sheer balls (and technical know-how) Jason had to _jack tires from the Batmobile_. It's kind of his "proven mettle" moment of his origin in Pre-Flashpoint continuity, and the other Robins have theirs; Dick's death defying leaps without a net, Tim figuring out who Batman and Robin were, and Damian standing up to his mother for his father.

And while I don't loathe the new Jason origin as much as I do the new Tim Drake one, it would make more sense for Batman to take in a kid who's proven he can evade high tech security and has the courage to act on his knowledge, than it would for him to be guilt-tripped by Leslie Thompkins into taking a prescription drug thief in. Lobdell's origins seemed to embrace the "internship" idea a little harder than the other writers, and I wouldn't mind a little retconning.

----------


## CapeandCowl

> Same here my friend. I loved when they made him get caught taking the tires off of the Batmobile


Thanks. Yes, that was pure classic. Overall, I quite enjoyed Jason's development.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Agreed on all accounts. When I used to tell people the Jason Todd was my Robin and one of my all time favorite characters. The looks I would get would be insane. It's amazing to see how far he has come. Now everyone is getting a chance to see it.


Yeah, I got the same looks myself but I can't help the fact that Jason Todd has always been one of my favorite characters. 




> I always enjoyed reading the mid-80s run of comic books to feature Jason's Robin. It took some time to realise he was not Dick Grayson as the first issue I recall reading was around 1983 and introduced Todd as the Boy Wonder. If it had been a different era, one could almost say it was a reboot! I grew up on the Jason Todd Robin and as a result, he was my favorite  of all Robins and still is, past and present.


I remember loving every issue that featured him in it. Jason Todd became my favorite Robin over even Dick Grayson probably because I found everything about him to be intriguing. I wasn't as fond of the version of him that was basically a clone of Grayson but still when I re-read some of those stories I do enjoy them. 




> Same here my friend. I loved when they made him get caught taking the tires off of the Batmobile


That really took guts and really pulled me into his story. From that moment on I had to know what a kid who would steal Batman's tires was made of. I had to know what kind of "Robin" he would be. I wanted to know what made him tick. I followed his story back then because I couldn't get enough of the character and still to this day I'm following the character for all of those reasons.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason got a cameo on Action Comics and if those are Kollins pencils, next month issue will have GREAT art:

http://i.imgur.com/oL4H7px.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MQEnkSE.jpg

He also showed up on Eternal but I'm not a fan of Clarke.

----------


## Aioros22

Awesome. They really are upping his importance without being overdone. Despite differences, it makes sense that in Dick`s absense, Bruce relies more on Jason, with him being the most experienced now. 

Also cool watching Jason saving innocents as a priority.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Awesome. They really are upping his importance without being overdone. Despite differences, it makes sense that in Dick`s absense, Bruce relies more on Jason, with him being the most experienced now. 
> 
> Also cool watching Jason saving innocents as a priority.


I agree. With Dick undercover with Spyral I think Jason needs to be the one to step up and be the one Bruce relies on. They were partners once and even though they might disagree about method in the end Jason just wants to protect the innocent just like any of the other Bats do.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Awesome. They really are upping his importance without being overdone. Despite differences, it makes sense that in Dick`s absense, Bruce relies more on Jason, with him being the most experienced now. 
> 
> Also cool watching Jason saving innocents as a priority.


Yup,it's about damn time.

----------


## Aioros22

Same with the Outlaws as a whole too. I can`t lie, I like the soap opera trio.

That`s a fine threesome.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Does anybody here happen to know of a comic book where Jason Todd, as Red Hood, meets Tim Drake's Red Robin? I wish they would do a story like that.

----------


## Godlike13

Pre-New 52, or post? Pre-new 52 Jason beats the crap out of him and leaves him lying on the floor. Post they eat pancakes and talk about Alfred.

----------


## Claude

> Does anybody here happen to know of a comic book where Jason Todd, as Red Hood, meets Tim Drake's Red Robin? I wish they would do a story like that.


The Death Of The Family tie-ins for both Teen Titans and Red Hood And The Outlaws might be what you're looking for.

----------


## CapeandCowl

> Pre-New 52, or post? Pre-new 52 Jason beats the crap out of him and leaves him lying on the floor. Post they eat pancakes and talk about Alfred.


See, I don't really understand the distinction of before and after The New 52. But the former seems more dramatic and intriguing than the latter. What issue or book is that part of, and why did Jason fight Tim?

----------


## Godlike13

> See, I don't really understand the distinction of before and after The New 52. But the former seems more dramatic and intriguing than the latter. What issue or book is that part of, and why did Jason fight Tim?


Teen Titans Vol 3 #29. And they fought because Jason felt slighted by the TTs, and he wanted to beat up his replacement.

Actually though, Tim was still just Robin when Jason did this. So this might not be what ur looking for.

----------


## K. Jones

> Does anybody here happen to know of a comic book where Jason Todd, as Red Hood, meets Tim Drake's Red Robin? I wish they would do a story like that.


Very specifically here;

The last few issues of Robin Volume 1, written by Fabian Nicieza after Chuck Dixon's comeback brought Stephanie Brown back from the dead - story's called "Robin: Search for a Hero" and has the BATMAN R.I.P. banner.

More specifically: Jason (still in "trolling the bat-family mode") is keeping tabs in Tim. He's just returned from Countdown to Final Crisis and a Donna/Kyle Rayner team-up. He GIVES the Kingdom Come "Red Robin" costume to Tim Drake - a "some years too late" passing of the torch along with an ass-kicking and other conflicted emotions.

So yeah;* "ROBIN: SEARCH FOR A HERO".*

After that? There's Battle for the Cowl, where they're both trying to be Batman unsuccessfully ... then I don't think they really pair off again until Death of the Family, or maybe just a little bit during Night of the Owls.

In other news ...

With Dick out of the picture and a possible comeback for Damian ... I think it's about high-time somebody made good on that ominous comment Bruce made during Incorporated about how effectively Jason and Damian kicked assassin ass together.

This goes hand-in-hand with Bruce leaning on Jason more now that Dick is "gone". Babs is more experienced but she's going to get past a little crisis and not go down the rabbit hole with Bruce. But Jason? Jason's been down the hole and back ... he may be all-in. (We're already seeing evidence of it - he brought Jason to War-World to cut loose, and Jason's front and center in the "Operation: Apokolips" heist going down in B&R.)

And that might include team-ups with Damian in the near future. Bonus points if they really do ship him with Kara Zor-El and Damian ruins their dates or something.

----------


## godisawesome

There was Death of the Family. The two were paired together since Lobdell was writing both books (with FabNic on supporting dialogue for Titans). The overall plot was still kind of screw-bally, and later a giant plot-hole once Snyder finished the main tale, but it was kind of dumb fun, especially since Fabian Nicieza got in the habit of having the dialogue poke some fun at the crazy elects.

A Eternal reunion would probably rock. I think Lobdell writes a fine Jason, but the guy should be kept the hell away from any teen hero from the 90s, especially Tim Drake. As the two "living" brothers of the Robins, a kind of retrospective issue with the two would be very nice.

----------


## K. Jones

Those short months of Fabian doing the dialogue for Tim Drake kind of make me a little sad. Because suddenly, terrible plot aside, at least Tim sounded like Tim. Now we're lucky we've got Tynion and Pfeiffer doing better things, but I do miss FabNic. Somebody get him Red Robin, stat!

----------


## oasis1313

Fabian is one of the best and most underrated writers EVER.  He puts so much heart in everything.  Tim should graduate from Red Robin to a new identity all his own, like Dick and Jason did before him, ad Fabian would be the perfect writer to do it.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

How old  do you guys think Jason Todd is in the New 52? And how old do you think he was pre 52?

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> How old  do you guys think Jason Todd is in the New 52? And how old do you think he was pre 52?


20-21 in both cases.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> 20-21 in both cases.


My thoughts exactly.Someone was telling me he was 19 at the most

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> Awesome. They really are upping his importance without being overdone. Despite differences, it makes sense that in Dick`s absense, Bruce relies more on Jason, with him being the most experienced now. 
> 
> Also cool watching Jason saving innocents as a priority.





> This goes hand-in-hand with Bruce leaning on Jason more now that Dick is "gone". Babs is more experienced but she's going to get past a little crisis and not go down the rabbit hole with Bruce. But Jason? Jason's been down the hole and back ... he may be all-in. (We're already seeing evidence of it - he brought Jason to War-World to cut loose, and Jason's front and center in the "Operation: Apokolips" heist going down in B&R.)


While I agree that, based on the direction that DC is currently taking the character, that this is best course of action, I still believe that the direction is very contradicting in comparison to what his new origin is.

This segment from a discussion I was having earlier. I'd like to hear thoughts from you all on my take of what should be Jason's characteristic.

*"*


> So, on to practical issues, which is where I think the hitch would be.  The big one off the bat (no pun intended) is that there would be an immediate storm of flying feces from a large segment of Red Hood fans.  Jason is just *too sympathetic to too many people* for this kind of move to be pulled off easily.  Ironically, I think that is the origin of many of the character's problems to begin with.  I honestly don't think Winick thought he was writing the story a lot of people read in _Under the Red Hood._  I think he, and a lot of people in DC editorial, saw Jason as basically an off-putting and self-absorbed quasi-villain, and were taken aback when he proved as popular as he did.  Thus much of the floundering with the character, as periodic moves in the villain direction always ran aground on Jason's fan base.  I know this isn't a move in a villain direction, but like that direction it would be terribly unpopular with a large segment of the fan base, and thus very difficult to execute.


My take would actually play and feed into that sympathy. With the reboot, DC has made Jason's backstory even sadder, and more fcked up, than before. My ideas just build more on that origin. 

Jason had to live with a drug addict of a mom, whom he tried to futilely care for and then slowly watch die before his eyes. I would assume that such an experience would leave a massive mark on him, and I would assume that drug dealing, drug addiction and drug abuse would be a very sensitive subject. The fact that he'd become an addict (of Venom, of all things), regardless of the situation, should have a severe affect on his mental state and how he views himself. 

He also grew up with an unreliable father, who regularly engages in criminal activity, and who's very likely the source of/reason behind his mom's death spiral. I'd assume that after have grew up in a broken home with horrible, and unreliable, parents, that he wouldn't be so quick to form any sort of bond with Bruce other than nonchalance. Especially when Bruce is a cold, and distant, person to begin with, doesn't relate to Jason at all, the fact that the man is always lying to him and the fact that Bruce let's men like the Joker (and especially the Joker) live to continue to ruin the lives of other people like Jason's was destroyed. Jason should've started off as a cynic that probably looked at Bruce's motivation as a joke. To him, Bruce a pampered prince that still had it made (and he did still have it made), and didn't have what it took to really make a difference. After all, Batman was around before Jason became a Robin, and nothing Batman did made life on the streets any better; if anything, it made things worse. During his time as a Robin, Jason would slowly come to believe in what Bruce stood for and his will to make things better. However, after his death by the Joker, and him returning to see that Batman hadn't killed the Joker, but that the Joker was still killing as pleased, Jason should've lost all faith in Bruce's path. He should be disgusted by Dick, Tim and Barbara's unwavering faith in Bruce, but not be surprised at the same time, as they too can't relate to Jason's past experiences. Jason should *not* be this close to the Bat family at all.

My take brings these aspects of Jason's life back to the forefront so people can truly see how much this guy has/should be and continues to suffer. It's also a clear reasoning why he would be so unrelenting, and vicious, towards criminals the way he should be.

People keep calling him Grayson-lite, well I call him Jason-lite. This dude should be like a young Max Payne; a horribly disillusioned individual as a result of his ridiculously tragic life, but his anger and guilt (for being too weak to prevent any of it) pushes him to fight back, even tho he knows it's pointless and that he may be slowly turning into the monsters he hates so much in the process.*"*

I keep using Jason's life experiences to say why I believe Jason should be the way I think he should be characterized, because Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Babs use their own experiences to drive them forward as well. It's just that Jason lived such a tragically different childhood, that I think it makes no sense that he should be the loyal Bat-soldier that he's currently being portrayed to be. Now that doesn't mean that Jason shouldn't help them sometimes, but it should be grudgingly and he shouldn't be so willing to disregard his mindset for theirs when they order him to.

So...opinions? Please be civil about it too lol.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> While I agree that, based on the direction that DC is currently taking the character, that this is best course of action, I still believe that the direction is very contradicting in comparison to what his new origin is.
> 
> This segment from a discussion I was having earlier. I'd like to hear thoughts from you all on my take of what should be Jason's characteristic.
> 
> *"*
> 
> My take would actually play and feed into that sympathy. With the reboot, DC has made Jason's backstory even sadder, and more fcked up, than before. My ideas just build more on that origin. 
> 
> Jason had to live with a drug addict of a mom, whom he tried to futilely care for and then slowly watch die before his eyes. I would assume that such an experience would leave a massive mark on him, and I would assume that drug dealing, drug addiction and drug abuse would be a very sensitive subject. The fact that he'd become an addict (of Venom, of all things), regardless of the situation, should have a severe affect on his mental state and how he views himself. 
> ...


I'd suggest to wait for Jason's origin next week before claiming he has a sadder origin on the N52, and the way the solicits are talking about his drug addiction make it seem more like he's taking a bullet (so to speak) for the greater good, something totally in character for him, again, best wait before rushing conclusions.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> While I agree that, based on the direction that DC is currently taking the character, that this is best course of action, I still believe that the direction is very contradicting in comparison to what his new origin is.
> 
> This segment from a discussion I was having earlier. I'd like to hear thoughts from you all on my take of what should be Jason's characteristic.
> 
> *"*
> 
> My take would actually play and feed into that sympathy. With the reboot, DC has made Jason's backstory even sadder, and more fcked up, than before. My ideas just build more on that origin. 
> 
> Jason had to live with a drug addict of a mom, whom he tried to futilely care for and then slowly watch die before his eyes. I would assume that such an experience would leave a massive mark on him, and I would assume that drug dealing, drug addiction and drug abuse would be a very sensitive subject. The fact that he'd become an addict (of Venom, of all things), regardless of the situation, should have a severe affect on his mental state and how he views himself. 
> ...


Dude,this post was epic!!!!!!

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> *I'd suggest to wait for Jason's origin next week* before claiming he has a sadder origin on the N52, and the way the solicits are talking about his drug addiction make it seem more like he's taking a bullet (so to speak) for the greater good, something totally in character for him, again, best wait before rushing conclusions.


What? Jason's origin was already told in RHatO #0, and I've heard/read nothing about a telling of another reboot. Did you think that made that stuff up about his mom and dad?

Also, I'm not saying what I think is gonna be the result of him becoming addicted to Venom; I'm just stating I believe should be the result of him becoming addicted, based off what Jason had to deal with as a child. I believe such a reaction makes much more sense.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> What? Jason's origin was already told in RHatO #0, and I've heard/read nothing about a telling of another reboot. Did you think that made that stuff up about his mom and dad?
> 
> Also, I'm not saying what I think is gonna be the result of him becoming addicted to Venom; I'm just stating I believe should be the result of him becoming addicted, based off what Jason had to deal with as a child. I believe such a reaction makes much more sense.


I really don't wanna see Jason struggle with addiction

----------


## JustJelly

> While I agree that, based on the direction that DC is currently taking the character, that this is best course of action, I still believe that the direction is very contradicting in comparison to what his new origin is.
> 
> This segment from a discussion I was having earlier. I'd like to hear thoughts from you all on my take of what should be Jason's characteristic.
> 
> *"*
> 
> My take would actually play and feed into that sympathy. With the reboot, DC has made Jason's backstory even sadder, and more fcked up, than before. My ideas just build more on that origin. 
> 
> Jason had to live with a drug addict of a mom, whom he tried to futilely care for and then slowly watch die before his eyes. I would assume that such an experience would leave a massive mark on him, and I would assume that drug dealing, drug addiction and drug abuse would be a very sensitive subject. The fact that he'd become an addict (of Venom, of all things), regardless of the situation, should have a severe affect on his mental state and how he views himself. 
> ...


I don't think he's Grayson-lite, he's more like Huntress pre-new 52.

----------


## kidstandout

> I don't think he's Grayson-lite, he's more like Huntress pre-new 52.


what this guy said. going the huntress route is the logical conclusion for him at this point anyway. it would be harder to justify him continuing to help the family when they can't come to any compromise and put the past behind them. jason has progressed to the point where going the max paine route will only regress him. it's no surprise issue # 18 was the highest rated issue of rhato, people finally got to see jason and bruce make up after all the sh*& that happened between them. to throw that away would be character suicide.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What? Jason's origin was already told in RHatO #0, and I've heard/read nothing about a telling of another reboot. Did you think that made that stuff up about his mom and dad?
> 
> Also, I'm not saying what I think is gonna be the result of him becoming addicted to Venom; I'm just stating I believe should be the result of him becoming addicted, based off what Jason had to deal with as a child. I believe such a reaction makes much more sense.


Jason's origin is being elaborated on Secret Origins #5 I assume you haven't seen the preview:

http://13thdimension.com/exclusive-p...ret-origins-5/

So far it seems that Jason adapted pretty well to his situation and he bonded with Bruce due both of them being Orphan (and knowing Lobdell there will be an important plot point about the venom addiction arc in there)




> what this guy said. going the huntress route is the logical conclusion for him at this point anyway. it would be harder to justify him continuing to help the family when they can't come to any compromise and put the past behind them. jason has progressed to the point where going the max paine route will only regress him. it's no surprise issue # 18 was the highest rated issue of rhato, people finally got to see jason and bruce make up after all the sh*& that happened between them. to throw that away would be character suicide.


Not to say that issue 34 showed how far Jason has come as character so he no longer sees revenge as a viable choice.

----------


## kidstandout

> Not to say that issue 34 showed how far Jason has come as character so he no longer sees revenge as a viable choice.


exactly! funny enough, posters like vanguard admit to liking jason now because of how far he's come, and considering said posters preferences, the progression has to be big! all his book needs is some sort of shake up to convince readers it's nowhere near as bad as tynions run. this is one of those times i'd say relaunch it.

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> Jason's origin is being elaborated on Secret Origins #5 I assume you haven't seen the preview:
> 
> http://13thdimension.com/exclusive-p...ret-origins-5/
> 
> So far it seems that Jason adapted pretty well to his situation and he bonded with Bruce due both of them being Orphan (and knowing Lobdell there will be an important plot point about the venom addiction arc in there)
> 
> 
> 
> Not to say that issue 34 showed how far Jason has come as character so he no longer sees revenge as a viable choice.


*Sigh*

To be honest, this the kind of stuff that drove me away from DC years ago, and even now still keeps me from getting too invested. They just love to keep a lot of their characters/heroes too tame or clean. Sometimes to the point of being unrealistic (and don't throw the "it's comics" BS here; story be fantasy-like, and still have believable and relatable characters).

You say "he bonded with Bruce due both of them being orphans", and I respond..."And...?" Yes they're both orphans, but that's the *ONLY* thing they have in common. And the circumstances in which they became orphans are completely different. Jason has never known the love of a parent, and Bruce was spoiled, pampered child that grew up to be cold and distant to everyone, but Dick and Alfred. Why would someone who's lived the life Jason did be so willing to place his trust, let alone, form a bond with such a man; especially when almost all Jason has seen is the worse in humanity?

And, no, I don't want an always b*tching about Batman and always going out his way to troll the Bat family Jason Todd. I don't have a problem with him being above revenge either. I simply want a Jason Todd that is characterized realistically, based off his life experiences. 

He's becoming less and less of a black sheep, based on the direction DC is taking this character, and honestly that will make him "just another Robin", and less interesting of a character in the end (if this "cleaning up" of Jason Todd is to continue). Very disappointing. 

I'll keep reading for now, tho, just to see of what becomes of him by the end of Eternal and this B&R story...I guess.




> exactly! funny enough, posters like vanguard admit to liking jason now because of how far he's come, and considering said posters preferences, the progression has to be big! all his book needs is some sort of shake up to convince readers it's nowhere near as bad as tynions run. this is one of those times i'd say relaunch it.


Yeah, they should relaunch it as a Red Hood solo book, and ground the character. More criminal underworld focus.

Basically do to Red Hood what Marvel is doing with Black Widow and Punisher, but with far more cynicism, sarcasm and inner monologues.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Sigh*
> 
> To be honest, this the kind of stuff that drove me away from DC years ago, and even now still keeps me from getting too invested. They just love to keep a lot of their characters/heroes too tame or clean. Sometimes to the point of being unrealistic (and don't throw the "it's comics" BS here; story be fantasy-like, and still have believable and relatable characters).
> 
> You say "he bonded with Bruce due both of them being orphans", and I respond..."And...?" Yes they're both orphans, but that's the *ONLY* thing they have in common. And the circumstances in which they became orphans are completely different. Jason has never known the love of a parent, and Bruce was spoiled, pampered child *that grew up to be cold and distant to everyone, but Dick and Alfred. Why would someone who's lived the life Jason did be so willing to place his trust, let alone, form a bond with such a man; especially when almost all Jason has seen is the worse in humanity?
> *
> And, no, I don't want an always b*tching about Batman and always going out his way to troll the Bat family Jason Todd. I don't have a problem with him being above revenge either. I simply want a Jason Todd that is characterized realistically, based off his life experiences. 
> 
> He's becoming less and less of a black sheep, based on the direction DC is taking this character, and honestly that will make him "just another Robin", and less interesting of a character in the end (if this "cleaning up" of Jason Todd is to continue). Very disappointing. 
> ...


http://imgur.com/DPvYPww
http://imgur.com/RGKOv7H
http://imgur.com/5i5G1Kg
http://imgur.com/nXtXvrL

You were saying?

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> http://imgur.com/DPvYPww
> http://imgur.com/RGKOv7H
> http://imgur.com/5i5G1Kg
> http://imgur.com/nXtXvrL
> 
> You were saying?


Dude, I've been talking about how *I* believe he should be written; not what DC is actually doing. 

The first two scans...okay that's a sweet moment. However, I do have problem with Jason being written as a rather tame whiny baby, rather than cold and abrasive street punk that's lived the life he has. Also, am I supposed to expect that one of the *rare* moments of affection from Bruce would erase all of the hate and bitterness inside a child that's been betrayed for most of his life? Nope.

The DotF scans should really only further Jason's hate, and wanting of death, of the Joker, and push him further away from Bruce for not killing this monster, or allowing him to do the deed. Joker is the guy that not only killed him, but could potentially also be the orchestrator behind horrible childhood. And now the dude nearly melted his face off, which could've killed him again. Jason's very vulnerable in those two scans, so even if he was written as I said he should be, I wouldn't be expecting much resistance or hostility from him until he was healed enough to leave. Bruce on the other hand is likely mostly feeling great guilt, because his lies and failure nearly got Jason killed again.

So yes, as I was saying, why should Jason be loving Bruce like a father before his death, and then now be so willing to continue to put his faith in this man, given his life experiences? If Starfire can't get over her hate and anger so easily, despite being with a very tight knit, family-like group, I can only assume that the volatile Jason Todd, aka would-be anti-hero, wouldn't either, seeing as his only father figure was a mostly cold and distant individual, who's ideals he doesn't agree with, and has never truly put his faith in him as a partner.

My main complaint is simply that the experiences that Jason went thru, and the effects those memories should have on his psyche, are being underplayed. In other words, DC is playing it really safe with this character. 

He's a walking tragedy; his life has been much worse than any other in the Bat family. Batman is a character whose motivations and ideals stem from the tragedy of his parents' death, and what they stood for. However he was still the rich kid, with the perfect life before that happened. Jason should be just as driven, but maybe even worse, and in a darker light, given his much worse experiences and lack of happiness before his parents' death.

----------


## Punisher007

I'm sorry, but your argument that Jason's past experiences should automatically make him brooding, angry, and distrustful is just as "unrealistic" as the alternative, because not everyone acts that way and quite frankly that's the most cliché way that you could go.  And your argument that he should solely focus on "underworld" crime stuff just sounds boring.  That would make him just like every other bat-character.  The fact that he's dealing with this sci-fi/mystical stuff is what gives him a more unique place in the bat-family, and it's much more interesting than "oh he's a bat-character, so he should only deal with street crime," yawn.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Yeah, they should relaunch it as a Red Hood solo book, and ground the character. More criminal underworld focus.
> 
> Basically do to Red Hood what Marvel is doing with Black Widow and Punisher, but with far more cynicism, sarcasm and inner monologues.


This!!!!!!

----------


## Kurisu

The problem with the grounded criminal underworld thing that you guys keep pitching is that it always reads as Jason lamenting over child slavers and drug dealers and ~the kill that got away~ month after month and honestly, no thanks. I reeeeally don't get the appeal, unless you take a Speed Grapher-esque route or something.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> The problem with the grounded criminal underworld thing that you guys keep pitching is that it always reads as Jason lamenting over child slavers and drug dealers and ~the kill that got away~ month after month and honestly, no thanks. I reeeeally don't get the appeal, unless you take a Speed Grapher-esque route or something.


If you don't see the appeal we can't help you but a lot of people would LOVE this approach.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> And your argument that he should solely focus on "underworld" crime stuff just sounds boring.  That would make him just like every other bat-character.


I don't think he meant in the sense of a detective investigating the underworld so much as actually being part of it.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> exactly! funny enough, posters like vanguard admit to liking jason now because of how far he's come, and considering said posters preferences, the progression has to be big! all his book needs is some sort of shake up to convince readers it's nowhere near as bad as tynions run. this is one of those times i'd say relaunch it.


Figured I'd drop in and make my newfound appreciation for Jason official.

Yeah, *kidstandout* pretty much has it: it's no secret that I'm not a fan of heroes who are a little too comfortable with using lethal force. I don't mind heroes who are willing to kill when necessary. In fact, on the other side of the coin, I don't really like heroes who absolutely refuse to kill if the situation demands it of them. I'm all about balance with my heroes. I'd like them to try to be noble and righteous whenever possible, but the harsh realities of this world sometimes require heroes to step up and make the tough choices. 

For the longest time, I hated Jason Todd. Originally, that hate was justified, because my first experience with him was in the pre-Flashpoint universe, where Jason pretty much WAS the murdering psychopath I believed him to be. I carried that hate into the New 52, and didn't really give Jason a fair chance. After a few posters on this forum pretty much proved to me that my prejudices toward him were based on faulty information, I went back and re-read the material. Lo, and behold! New 52 Jason was ALWAYS better than his pre-Flashpoint counterpart, and he really has progressed even further away from that as the New 52 has moved forward. 

Prejudice. It's never a good thing, kids. This has been a *Vanguard-01* Public Service Announcement.

Yeah, Jason doesn't need to be a perfect angel for me to like him. I like that he's willing to do what's necessary at times, but this latest issue did WONDERS to show that he now sees lethal force as AN option, rather than THE option. Seeing him talk Starfire down from killing that man in #34 was just awesome (sure, Roy helped, but I still don't like Roy.) 

So, yeah. Jason? Kinda cool when viewed objectively.

----------


## kidstandout

> If you don't see the appeal we can't help you but *a lot of people would LOVE this approach*.


you mean the same people who got tired of the 6 years of whiny trigger happy jason? pass




> Figured I'd drop in and make my newfound appreciation for Jason official.
> 
> Yeah, *kidstandout* pretty much has it: it's no secret that I'm not a fan of heroes who are a little too comfortable with using lethal force. I don't mind heroes who are willing to kill when necessary. In fact, on the other side of the coin, I don't really like heroes who absolutely refuse to kill if the situation demands it of them. I'm all about balance with my heroes. I'd like them to try to be noble and righteous whenever possible, but the harsh realities of this world sometimes require heroes to step up and make the tough choices. 
> 
> For the longest time, I hated Jason Todd. Originally, that hate was justified, because my first experience with him was in the pre-Flashpoint universe, where Jason pretty much WAS the murdering psychopath I believed him to be. I carried that hate into the New 52, and didn't really give Jason a fair chance. After a few posters on this forum pretty much proved to me that my prejudices toward him were based on faulty information, I went back and re-read the material. Lo, and behold! New 52 Jason was ALWAYS better than his pre-Flashpoint counterpart, and he really has progressed even further away from that as the New 52 has moved forward. 
> 
> Prejudice. It's never a good thing, kids. This has been a *Vanguard-01* Public Service Announcement.
> 
> Yeah, Jason doesn't need to be a perfect angel for me to like him. I like that he's willing to do what's necessary at times, but this latest issue did WONDERS to show that he now sees lethal force as AN option, rather than THE option. Seeing him talk Starfire down from killing that man in #34 was just awesome (sure, Roy helped, but I still don't like Roy.) 
> ...


QFT.

----------


## Kid A

> This!!!!!!


Are you serious?  If I wanted to read the Punisher, I'd read Punisher.

----------


## kidstandout

> Are you serious?  If I wanted to read the Punisher, I'd read Punisher.


exactly, whats funny is people trying to say ciopying punisher is better than being his own character. how about let jason not be a clone frank castle, max payne, natasha romanov ect. how about let jason todd be *jason todd*. the guy has finally returned to being the the person he was before he died after literally journeying through hell on a road of self discovery. objectively speaking, he is a more developed character for that.

----------


## Godlike13

Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing. The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH that Jason finally became something interesting and more unique. 
Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring. Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.

----------


## kidstandout

> *Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing.* The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH the Jason finally became interesting and more unique. 
> Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. *Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring*. Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.


to you

to a lot of people who were reading the book before tynion would say otherwise. he's pretty unique right now dealing with more cosmic/monster elements too. a lot more unique than having him revert to pre-52 jason




> *Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher*, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.


controlling crime by limiting it aside, he was still acting as an executioner in response to the tragedy that robbed him of his life. for all intents and purposes, utrh jason is a derrivative of punisher. they'd never have jason kill off a big enough villain for him to take control of crime so he'll be stuck playing punisher, and the last time we got a solo book with jason trying to maintain the old status quo, we got the lost days by judd winnick. not exactly enticing to warrant a shift back to that status quo.

----------


## Godlike13

I know the popular thing to do is blame it all on Tynion, but the downward trend was there even before Tynion. At least when not tying into Batman. And right now its well out of the top 100. Which to be blunt, makes what he's currently doing in it rather irrelevant. Because no one really reading it anymore, other than the die-hards who stuck with it. Whats its doing, or he's doing in it, certainly isn't standing out. 
They need to do something, and reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 Jason is just an idea. Because reverting Jason closer to the person he was before he died isn't really working anymore. 
To me reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 doesn't sound like too bad of an idea given that thats the Jason they made an animated movie about, and that the Jason thats presumably gonna be showcased in the new Arkham game. Its the Jason that arguably has the most general appeal.

----------


## kidstandout

> I know the popular thing to do is blame it all on Tynion, but there wasn't really "a lot" of people reading the book even before Tynion. At least when not tying into Batman. And right now its well out of the top 100. Which to be blunt, makes what he's currently doing in it rather irrelevant. Because no one really reading it anymore, other than the die-hards who stuck with it.


there's no denying that the book needs a shot in the arm. it's just a matter of giving him antibiotics or cyanide.

objectively speaking, the book was "a lot" better,quality and sales wise, before tynion. if dc were smart, they should of relaunched it after issue #28

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing. The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH that Jason finally became something interesting and more unique. 
> Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. *Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring.* Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.


Weird, I've followed the Sons of Batman's books since the start of the N52 and I don't remember Dick, Damian and Tim teaming up to release a planet from invaders, or killing a terrorist cell, or fighting a ancient horror disguised as a sheriff on Colorado, or killing a crime lord that took hostage a kid's hospital, or taking part on a death match for the amusement of Alien overlords...

And again, the lost on RHATO's readers was because the terrible mess Tynion's run was, not because the stories/characters themselves have lost appeal.

And Decline?

Let's see numbers:

Lobdell's last six months:

Red Hood And The Outlaws	18	$2.99	DC	37,731
Red Hood And The Outlaws	17	$2.99	DC	53,076
Red Hood and the Outlaws	16	$2.99	DC	59,621
Red Hood And The Outlaws	15	$2.99	DC	64,103
Red Hood And The Outlaws	14	$2.99	DC	37,710
Red Hood And The Outlaws	13	$2.99	DC	35,420

Barring the spike that were the DOTF tie ins, the book sit comfortably on the 35-37 mark

Tynion's first issue sat on the same range

Red Hood And The Outlaws	19	$2.99	DC	36,630

But his last six issues?

Red Hood And The Outlaws	28	$2.99	DC	23,236
Red Hood and The Outlaws	27	$2.99	DC	24,813
Red Hood And The Outlaws	26	$2.99	DC	25,382
Red Hood And The Outlaws	25	$3.99	DC	30,632
Red Hood and the Outlaws	24	$2.99	DC	27,128
Red Hood and The Outlaws	23	$2.99	DC	28,821

Even the Zero Year tie in painfully failed to get the DOTF tie ins numbers, you're deluding yourself if you don't think the book current sales aren't Tynion's fault.

----------


## Godlike13

Tynion's run saw more or less the same amount of deflation Lobdell's was seeing, minus the tie-in issue. So u guys can try to blame it all on Tynion all u want, but sorry, im not buying it. The trend was there even before him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Tynion's run saw more or less the same amount of deflation Lobdell's was seeing, minus the tie-in issue. So u guys can try to blame it all on Tynion all u want, but sorry, im not buying it. The trend was there even before him.


I'm gonna need clarification on this, what trend?

Not counting the tie ins, Lobdell's issues actually saw an increase on sales (going from 35k to 37k). What deflation are you seeing?

----------


## DurararaFTW

Yeah, the book was doing 36,000~ before Tynion came along, Death of the Family tie in's not included. Tynion was the one that killed reader interest, my personal feelings about how Lobdell handled the characters aside.

----------


## Godlike13

The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed that Lobdell's saw. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.


It was doing 36~ before and after. It had gotten to about that point since the 5th issue. All books bleed numbers, but Tynion certainly quickened things for Red Hood and the Outlaws.

----------


## kidstandout

> The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed that Lobdell's saw. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.


so a decline from 56 to 37 across 18 issues is the same as a 37 to 22 drop across 10?

----------


## Godlike13

> It was doing 36~ before and after. It had gotten to about that point since the 5th issue. All books bleed numbers, but Tynion certainly quickened things for Red Hood and the Outlaws.


No, the book was in the 40s with issue 5. Got to the 34s with 12, then right after saw a 0 issue, Superman, and Batman tie-ins. His last issue before Tynion was a Requiem lets not forget. Like u say all books bleed numbers, Tynion's run just didn't see the same gimmicks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No, the book was in the 40s with issue 5. Got to the 34s with 12, then right after saw a 0 issue, Superman, and Batman tie-ins. His last issue before Tynion was a Requiem lets not forget. Like u say all books bleed numbers, Tynion's run just didn't see the same gimmicks.


You're moving the goalposts now and including the reboot hype instead of looking at the normal numbers that a second tier book like this one should be movng to be considered a success. Under your metric, EVERY N52 BOOK BUT BATMAN IS A FAILURE.

Plus you're ignoring the fact those "crossovers" are accounted for on the numbers I posted, Superman cameo was issue 14 and issues 17 and 18 weren't considered tie ins for the readers.

----------


## Godlike13

> You're moving the goalposts now and including the reboot hype instead of looking at the normal numbers that a second tier book like this one should be movng to be considered a success. Under your metric, EVERY N52 BOOK BUT BATMAN IS A FAILURE.
> 
> Plus you're ignoring the fact those "crossovers" are accounted for on the numbers I posted, Superman cameo was issue 14 and issues 17 and 18 weren't considered tie ins for the readers.


Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue of Lobdells didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Compared to Tynion's numbers where there was only one. Looking at the normal numbers, those not being inflated by a gimmick or guest appearance, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion. There really isn't this huge gap in the numbers that shows it was specific to Tynion and that he killed the title like u guys want to make it seem. 

And im not saying the book isn't a success or that it is, im just saying that its ran its course.

----------


## EdwardNigma

> Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.


Well said.

----------


## kidstandout

> Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Looking at the normal numbers, those bing inflated by a gimmick, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion.


shifting goal post up right left down.

one of lobdell's 'gimmick' issues was rated better than tynion's whole stint.  you can argue crossover gimmicks all you like, doesn't change the fact that tynion's run was sh%$.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue of Lobdell didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Compared to Tynion's numbers where there was only one. Looking at the normal numbers, those not being inflated by a gimmick or guest appearance, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion. There really isn't this huge gap in the numbers that shows it was specific to Tynion and that he killed the title like u guys want to make it seem.


By issue 4 it was at 38+, it never dropped below 34 during Lobdell's run. During Tynion's run it started losing 2000 readers an issue. 

And frankly speaking, Tynion lives on the same planet we do. You don't have to be in an event to have a big name guest in your comic. What happened, happened on Tynion's watch.

----------


## Godlike13

> shifting goal post up right left down.
> 
> one of lobdell's 'gimmick' issues was rated better than tynion's whole stint.  you can argue crossover gimmicks all you like, doesn't change the fact that tynion's run was sh%$.


What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.

----------


## Godlike13

> By issue 4 it was at 38+, it never dropped below 34 during Lobdell's run. During Tynion's run it started losing 2000 readers an issue. 
> 
> And frankly speaking, Tynion lives on the same planet we do. You don't have to be in an event to have a big name guest in your comic. What happened, happened on Tynion's watch.


By issue 4 it was at 44, as soon as it hit 34k under Lobdell the book only saw one issue that didn't have a gimmick attached to it. Losing 2000 readers an issue is what more or less Lobdell's run was seeing too, when it wasn't being inflated be a gimmick. And u have to be able to have a big name guest in your comic. It certainly helps being able to do that when ur also writing that big name guest.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.


Lobdell's numbers, aside from the ones inflated by gimmicks aren't bad either. And yeah, Superman>Strange and Ra's when it comes to bringing your numbers up. Not Lobdell's fault if Tynion thought otherwise.




> By issue 4 it was at 44, as soon as it hit 34k under Lobdell the book only saw one issue that didn't have a gimmick attached to it. Losing 2000 readers an issue is what more or less Lobdell's run was seeing too, when it wasn't being inflated be a gimmick. And u have to be able to have a big name guest in your comic. It certainly helps being able to do that when ur also writing that big name guest.


Whose numbers are you going by? And it helps, it is in no way required. The Justice League appears in Superman titles all the time. Batgirl appeared in Nightwing a couple of times. Tynion didn't have access to Batman as part of DOTF fall-out (though Johns felt free to throw Red Hood in the batcave for no reason) but there was a world of options left.

----------


## Godlike13

The Beat. The reason ur probably seeing disparity in the numbers is that they didn't deduct 10% like the early issues were being reported at, because of the whole returnable thing they were doing at the time. .

----------


## kidstandout

> What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.


you go from claiming that the decline was the same for both writers but when shown otherwise you attempt to discredit them by labeling them as crossover gimmicks despite tynions whole run being nothing but league of assassin cameos as well as the fact that, again, not a single issue from tynions run can compare to issue #18 in both reception and sales.

----------


## Godlike13

> you go from claiming that the decline was the same for both writers but when shown otherwise you attempt to discredit them by labeling them as crossover gimmicks despite tynions whole run being nothing but league of assassin cameos as well as the fact that, again, not a single issue from tynions run can compare to issue #18.




See that "Requiem" on there? Im not labeling them, DC is the one labeling these issues. Im not moving the goal post by pointing out that the issues that were shown had gimmicks labeled on their covers to inflate their sales. Save for one, #13 which did 35,420. Which is where Tynion's run basically started at. Discrediting something isn't moving the goal post.

Whatever though. Im done with this argument, if u guys want to blame it on Tynion go ahead. His run was crap, and im certainly not defending it. Regardless it doesn't change where the book is at now, and its lack of audience.

----------


## kidstandout

> See that "Requiem" on there? Im not labeling them, DC is the one labeling these issues. I'm not moving the goal post by pointing out that the issues i was shown had gimmicks labeled on their covers to inflate their sales. Save for one, #13 which did 35,420. Which is where Tynion's run basically started at.


well then let's put it this way, the overall quality of the series under lobdell compared to tynion is more then enough to disprove the notion that if he never left the book, it wouldn't effect the sales. a book will suffer a fluctuation when the direction of said book changes so rapidly. a book with stronger writing will bleed less, which explains why tynions book bled more in ten issues then lobdell did in 18

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> exactly, whats funny is people trying to say ciopying punisher is better than being his own character. how about let jason not be a clone *frank castle, max payne, natasha romanov* ect. how about let jason todd be *jason todd*. the guy has finally returned to being the the person he was before he died after literally journeying through hell on a road of self discovery. objectively speaking, he is a more developed character for that.


First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.

Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.

Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.

Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.

If anyone here has ever read Remender's _Deadly Class_, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.




> Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing. The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH that Jason finally became something interesting and more unique. 
> Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring. Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.





> Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.


I agree with this.

There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable. The Jason Todd that came back is what got people interested in him again, however he was impeded by his lack of a solo book, and, thus, lacking of "screen time". 

Also, people keep saying that criminal underworld focused stuff would be boring, yet Batman Eternal is doing very well, even with it's major focus other smaller criminal players.

Anyways, I'll continue this discussion later; busy right now.

----------


## kidstandout

> First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.
> 
> Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.
> 
> Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.
> 
> Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.
> 
> If anyone here has ever read Remender's _Deadly Class_, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.
> ...


only brought those guys up because it seems that people are suggesting he should be more like them, which in turn makes him less unique as opposed to his current role. but from a  conceptual pov, jason is already like all those characters in terms of back story. tragedy happens to family? check. revenge? check. killing as second nature?check

jason todd was killed off because people didn't like him for being dicks replacement. the fact that he was an arrogant punk didn't help either. the whole time he was robin, people were measuring him up to dick and felt he came up short. the fact that he spent most of his robin years trying to out do him only reinforces the point. his strengths as a character were ignored when he was robin, his faults magnified when he was red hood in pre 52. there's a reason why jason haters were so vocal about preferring him as a corpse; up until the new 52, he was devoid of any character growth. now jason gets to be jason minus the pressure of having to compete with dick both in story and among the readers. he's not nitewing lite, punisher, max payne or whatever the f%^$, *he's jason todd*. if him being himself and moving forward doesn't appeal to you, perhaps you are better suited following another character because DC isn't heading back to the rut jason was in during pre 52 anytime soon

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I agree with this.
> 
> There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable.


No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time. 

And someone rigged the poll anyway.

----------


## kidstandout

> No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. 
> 
> And someone rigged the poll anyway.


these aswell

----------


## MichaelAngel0

> No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time. 
> 
> And someone rigged the poll anyway.


I guess, I'm looking at it in hindsight, and based off the types of books we have today, when I said that. I have to admit, that when I look back at that whole situation, I'm still shocked that he was hated so much while, the extremely boring Dick was lauded over. Even if I think that Jason back then was still vanilla, he was WAY better than Dick.

I still think the same way now, even though I still have a problem with Jason's characterization (as you probably already noticed).




> only brought those guys up because it seems that people are suggesting he should be more like them, which in turn makes him less unique as opposed to his current role. but from a  conceptual pov, jason is already like all those characters in terms of back story. tragedy happens to family? check. revenge? check. killing as second nature?check
> 
> his strengths as a character were ignored when he was robin, his faults magnified when he was red hood in pre 52. there's a reason why jason haters were so vocal about preferring him as a corpse; up until the new 52, he was devoid of any character growth. now jason gets to be jason minus the pressure of having to compete with dick both in story and among the readers. he's not nitewing lite, punisher, max payne or whatever the f%^$, *he's jason todd*. if him being himself and moving forward doesn't appeal to you, perhaps you are better suited following another character because DC isn't heading back to the rut jason was in during pre 52 anytime soon


You seem to think that just because I want to see a darker take on JAson that I'm also opposed to Jason growing as a character as well. Well I can tell you that that's not the case. I made a second post right after that wall of text I first wrote on the Revamp Red Hood thread about how Jason would grow as character again after falling so low, but a mod must've deleted it.

I'll elaborate tomorrow, on this thread, or I could just PM you, as to not clutter the forum with our debate. You may even like some of the ideas I thought up of. What say you?

----------


## Punisher007

> First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.
> 
> Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.
> 
> Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.
> 
> Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.
> 
> If anyone here has ever read Remender's _Deadly Class_, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.
> ...


Yeah, it is boring.  The Criminal underworld is something that pretty much all of the bat-characters deal with.  There's nothing unique about it.  Jason has a nice niche right now that's uniquely his, just the Batwoman has hers with the more supernatural elements of Gotham.  Saying that he should go back to doing the same old thing that every bat-character does just doesn't sound interesting to me, it's "been there done that."

----------


## DurararaFTW

> No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time. 
> 
> And someone rigged the poll anyway.


Jason only adopted that punk attitude Post-Crisis by which time they were probably already considering killing him off. He was a straight Dick clone before, right down to the circus background.




> Yeah, it is boring.  The Criminal underworld is something that pretty much all of the bat-characters deal with.  There's nothing unique about it.  Jason has a nice niche right now that's uniquely his, just the Batwoman has hers with the more supernatural elements of Gotham.  Saying that he should go back to doing the same old thing that every bat-character does just doesn't sound interesting to me, it's "been there done that."


Again, Tim, Dick, Bruce and Barbara are hardly figures of Gotham's criminal underworld. They only lightly touch on that world as the heroes that fight them.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Again, Tim, Dick, Bruce and Barbara are hardly figures of Gotham's criminal underworld. They only lightly touch on that world as the heroes that fight them.


This is currently not true thanks to _Eternal_ and the whole thing about Falcone, that speaking of, Jason CAN'T get involved with the underworld on the degree you're suggesting because that Selina's role now.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> This is currently not true thanks to _Eternal_ and the whole thing about Falcone, that speaking of, Jason CAN'T get involved with the underworld on the degree you're suggesting because that Selina's role now.


Only if he thinks Selina is doing a great job. And Dick is still doing something differently. And when I say underworld, I don't mean literally Killercroc's underground community. Batman is still in the role of investigator working alongside the police. He's not already doing what Red Hood could be here. 

Anyway

09/2011: Red Hood #1  -- 56,112          [70,244]
10/2011: Red Hood #2  -- 59,382 (+ 5.8%)
11/2011: Red Hood #3  -- 50,140 (-15.6%)
12/2011: Red Hood #4  -- 44,278 (-11.7%)
01/2012: Red Hood #5  -- 42,560 (- 3.9%)
02/2012: Red Hood #6  -- 39,898 (- 6.3%)
03/2012: Red Hood #7  -- 38,630 (- 3.2%)
04/2012: Red Hood #8  -- 37,974 (- 1.7%)
05/2012: Red Hood #9  -- 54,220 (+42.8%)
06/2012: Red Hood #10 -- 37,044 (-31.7%)
07/2012: Red Hood #11 -- 35,820 (- 3.3%)
08/2012: Red Hood #12 -- 34,439 (- 3.9%)
09/2012: Red Hood #0  -- 39,511 (+14.7%)
10/2012: Red Hood #13 -- 35,420 (- 6.7%)
11/2012: Red Hood #14 -- 37,710 (+ 6.5%)
12/2012: Red Hood #15 -- 64,103 (+70.0%)
01/2013: Red Hood #16 -- 59,621 (- 7.0%)
02/2013: Red Hood #17 -- 53,076 (-11.0%)
03/2013: Red Hood #18 -- 37,731 (-28.9%) [42,901]
04/2013: Red Hood #19 -- 36,630 (- 2.9%)
05/2013: Red Hood #20 -- 35,542 (- 3.0%)
06/2013: Red Hood #21 -- 32,416 (-  8.8%)
07/2013: Red Hood #22 -- 30,534 (-  5.8%)
08/2013: Red Hood #23 -- 28,821 (-  5.6%)
09/2013: --
10/2013: Red Hood #24 -- 27,128 (-  5.9%)
11/2013: Red Hood #25 -- 30,632 (+ 12.9%)
12/2013: Red Hood #26 -- 25,382 (- 17.1%)
01/2014: Red Hood #27 -- 24,813 (-  2.2%)
02/2014: Red Hood #28 -- 23,236 (-  6.4%)
03/2014: Red Hood #29 -- 22,316 (-  4.0%)
04/2014: Red Hood #30 -- 21,718 (-  2.7%)
05/2014: Red Hood #31 -- 21,257 (-  2.1%)
06/2014: Red Hood #32 -- 33,081 (+ 55.6%)

Here's the Beat's chart. Unless it's the numbers coming back down from one of those gimmicks or the initial drop after the first two issues (there's usually a big drop after the first issue with any comic, but the controversy and uproar Red Hood 1 caused actually got more readers to the second issue) Lobdell never did the 8.8% drop Tynion had at issue 21. Then followed up with another near 6% drop, and another, and another. There's nothing in these numbers that suggests Lobdell would've done that bad in his place.

----------


## Aioros22

> I know the popular thing to do is blame it all on Tynion, but the downward trend was there even before Tynion. At least when not tying into Batman. And right now its well out of the top 100. Which to be blunt, makes what he's currently doing in it rather irrelevant. Because no one really reading it anymore, other than the die-hards who stuck with it. Whats its doing, or he's doing in it, certainly isn't standing out. 
> They need to do something, and reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 Jason is just an idea. Because reverting Jason closer to the person he was before he died isn't really working anymore..


They need to do something with the book, sure. I don`t agree necessarily with the characters, other than organic progression and changes. The downward got to do with the stories that followed DOTF. Enjoyable concepts with problematic executions, lacking that quirky humor.  

I dont see how this Jason is closer to how he was before he died. Is it because he is less of a mad psycho? 




> To me reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 doesn't sound like too bad of an idea given that thats the Jason they made an animated movie about, and that the Jason thats presumably gonna be showcased in the new Arkham game. Its the Jason that arguably has the most general appeal.


But it`s the Jason that is tied especifically to one story and emotions post death. 

I could see and I would (also) like to read Jason solo stories about him targetting mobs, rapists and the like and all the inside investigation work on it. But that doesn`t require a change of character at all, since he still kills. He just doesn`t get to be happy triggy anymore, whch is essentially a good thing and actually makes him a better fit for some underground hitman stories. A more controlled Jason works in more enviorments. 

Jason as a crime boss (let`s relate this to pre52 again) is another limited hook to me. Would be a great arc or twice. And then what? You have Batman and co (including Justice League) giving him a pass, how? How would you sell it when you have Batman knowing it`s Jason right in the first arc? And it would limit the character in one type of ground too much, which is what is going to happen with Selina until after this crisis. You can wait for posters begging her to leave the chair if it takes long.

----------


## kidstandout

> I dont see how this Jason is closer to how he was before he died. *Is it because he is less of a mad psycho?*


pretty much

----------


## Aioros22

> *Weird, I've followed the Sons of Batman's books since the start of the N52 and I don't remember Dick, Damian and Tim teaming up to release a planet from invaders, or killing a terrorist cell, or fighting a ancient horror disguised as a sheriff on Colorado, or killing a crime lord that took hostage a kid's hospital, or taking part on a death match for the amusement of Alien overlords*...
> 
> And again, the lost on RHATO's readers was because the terrible mess Tynion's run was, not because the stories/characters themselves have lost appeal.
> 
> And Decline?
> 
> Let's see numbers:
> 
> Lobdell's last six months:
> ...


I actually agree. 

+1 for the bold. I`m on the side of a bigger pace in the sense of a action movie. But to say nothing happens...well, nothing related to Batman. Not necessarily a bad thing to me, just that more can be done with these 3.

----------


## Aioros22

> pretty much


That`s a rather vague thing. He`s less or a mad dog so automatically he`s nicer. The old Jason never dealt with issues, was still growing and was written on purpose to be disliked under Starlin. 

This Jason is a grown man who has dealt his issues and does things whether Batman says yes or no, but does it with a collected mind and not because he`s angry towards Bruce. What you do have is actually some shades of Jason under Titans scriber Wolfman. The young but capable Jason who would actually give advice to Roy or Donna despite his age. I say Jason now is a more balanced character without falling into extremes. He`s got a colder sarcastic outsider but a big heart inside to those he cares about. 

By the waaaay, anyone noticed how in the Batman and Robin cover with Jason and co on Apokolips, Jason`s armor looks like a certain _Arkham Knight_?

----------


## kidstandout

> That`s a rather vague thing. He`s less or a mad dog so automatically he`s nicer. The old Jason never dealt with issues, was still growing and was written on purpose to be disliked under Starlin. 
> 
> This Jason is a grown man who has dealt his issues and does things whether Batman says yes or no, but does it with a collected mind and not because he`s angry towards Bruce. What you do have is actually some shades of Jason under Titans scriber Wolfman. The young but capable Jason who would actually give advice to Roy or Donna despite his age. I say Jason now is a more balanced character without falling into extremes. He`s got a colder sarcastic outsider but a big heart inside to those he cares about. 
> 
> By the waaaay, anyone noticed how in the Batman and Robin cover with Jason and co on Apokolips, Jason`s armor looks like a certain _Arkham Knight_?


while i agree with your assessment, i feel the mad psycho business had to go. it made him to one dimensional, and in that respect i believe that current jason has in common with his robin days

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Only if he thinks Selina is doing a great job. And Dick is still doing something differently. And when I say underworld, I don't mean literally Killercroc's underground community. Batman is still in the role of investigator working alongside the police. He's not already doing what Red Hood could be here.


When I mentioned Selina I was thinking that the idea of Jason as a crime lord for the greater good is already given to Selina (that I doubt it will be permament anyways).

Oh and don't go searchin for RHATO on tumblr, people clearly don't know what the hell are they talking about.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> When I mentioned Selina I was thinking that the idea of Jason as a crime lord for the greater good is already given to Selina (that I doubt it will be permament anyways).
> 
> Oh and don't go searchin for RHATO on tumblr, people clearly don't know what the hell are they talking about.


I've been searching RHATO on tumblr just like you said and I'm not getting what you're referring to. link plz?

----------


## Kurisu

> Oh and don't go searchin for RHATO on tumblr, people clearly don't know what the hell are they talking about.


I just skimmed through the tag and 


I like headcanon as much as the next guy, but my god.

----------


## kidstandout

> I just skimmed through the tag and 
> 
> 
> I like headcanon as much as the next guy, but my god.


thats tumblr for you, and people call fanfiction.net the pit of voles lol

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I've been searching RHATO on tumblr just like you said and I'm not getting what you're referring to. link plz?


http://shevathegun.tumblr.com/post/9...ve-been-update
http://shevathegun.tumblr.com/post/9...youre-going-to
http://roserelease.tumblr.com/post/9...feels-rhato-34

That gave me a serious headache, and the author claims herself to be one of the biggest Jason fans.

----------


## Badou

> Weird, I've followed the Sons of Batman's books since the start of the N52 and I don't remember Dick, Damian and Tim teaming up to release a planet from invaders, or killing a terrorist cell, or fighting a ancient horror disguised as a sheriff on Colorado, or killing a crime lord that took hostage a kid's hospital, or taking part on a death match for the amusement of Alien overlords...
> 
> And again, the lost on RHATO's readers was because the terrible mess Tynion's run was, not because the stories/characters themselves have lost appeal.


This isn't really a fair argument to make. Outlaws was basically like a Titans book so of course the stories they were going to tell were going to be different than the Batman solo books. I mean they even retold the old New Teen Titans stories in Outlaws and I think it was also being edited by the same Teen Titans editors. I still say that Outlaws was a better Teen Titans book than the actually Teen Titans series and probably should have been grouped in the Young Justice line of books in the relaunch rather than the Batman line, but I suppose it being in the Batman line, and being promoted with those other Batman books, helped it given what happened to the Young Justice line books. 




> And Decline?
> 
> Let's see numbers:
> 
> Lobdell's last six months:
> 
> Red Hood And The Outlaws    18     $2.99 DC    37,731
> Red Hood And The Outlaws	17	$2.99	DC	53,076
> Red Hood and the Outlaws	16	$2.99	DC	59,621
> ...


You are overlooking a lot of factors here where it seems like Lobdell's run was vastly more successful, but really wasn't. I'll explain why in detail. 

The reason for the jump in sales for #14 wasn't because of Superman but actually because of a quick Joker tease at the end of the issue. So Outlaws DotF tie in started with issue #14 really and lasted all the way to issue #17. Batgirl did this too I believe. Then issue #18 was the Robin Requiem issue, and if you go back two issues to issue #0 you had another event/gimmick with all the #0 issues in September. 

So out of Lobdell's last 7 issues 6 of them were tie ins to a gimmick or an event and that helped out Lobdell's sales a lot. They didn't have their normal decline. During Tynion whole run he only had one issue devoted to a gimmick/event, which was the Zero Year tie in. Though of course that tie in was never going to be as successful as a BIG Joker event. Tynion Zero Year issue did about as well as all the other Zero Year tie ins though. 

Still if you look at the % drop from issue to issue at ComicsBeat's sales charts then from issue #4 (usually the number where a book starts to settle) all the way to issue #12, and skipping the % gain on #9 (Court of Owls tie in) and the % drop on #10 (the book falling back down to its normal levels from the event), Lobdell's average decline was a -4.9% drop from issue to issue. Which is below average as most books would like to be under -3% at least. Then Tynion's % drop for his issues from #19 to #28, and again skipping the Zero Year event gain (#25) and following issue drop (#26), his average drop from issue to issue was a -5.1%. Worse than Lobdell's but not by much. I might cut Lobdell some slack on the issue #4 drop because of how the relaunch went with all the #1's being under ordered by quite a bit causing the % drops in the beginning to be non-typical for a while, but even shaving off some of the % their drop rates aren't that far apart. 

You also have to factor in that Tynion had pretty bad and inconsistent and teams to work with during his run, which might have turned a lot off, and also he was writing the series coming out of the DotF event and Requiem issue. The reason why this matters is that over the course of those 4-5 months the Outlaws book didn't have its normal decline as more people jumped on the book for the event, and the readers that would have left in the typical month to month decline stuck with the book through the event as well. Then when the event was over those readers that would have left but stuck around for the event left in bulk over the following months after Lobdell and the event were finished so the book saw big drops as it tries to fall back down to what its normal level would have been if the event had not happened. 

So from issue #13 which was Lobdell's last issue that had no connection to DotF its sales were 35,420. I'll be kind and not include the #4 % drop so the average % drop for Lobdell would be -3.7%. So if DotF never happened and we continued to get normal arcs up until issue #28 (Tynion's last issue) from Lobdell then the book's sales would be around 20,307 as of issue #28 which is lower than 23,236 which is the actual #28 number. So basically that nearly half a year stretch where the book was in tie-ins and events helped it greatly and Tynion's run didn't have the benefit of having big events to tie into which made his run seems a lot worse when it really wasn't. 

Also another big factor was that Lobdell started his DotF tie ins before Marvel started their Marvel Now campaign. So during most of Lobdell's run he didn't have all these new books being released while he was writing it, and by the time Tynion was put on the book and the book's sales were falling back down to their normal levels after DotF he had all these other series that pushed his sales position down a lot.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This isn't really a fair argument to make. Outlaws was basically like a Titans book so of course the stories they were going to tell were going to be different than the Batman solo books. I mean they even retold the old New Teen Titans stories in Outlaws and I think it was also being edited by the same Teen Titans editors. I still say that Outlaws was a better Teen Titans book than the actually Teen Titans series and probably should have been grouped in the Young Justice line of books in the relaunch rather than the Batman line, but I suppose it being in the Batman line, and being promoted with those other Batman books, helped it given what happened to the Young Justice line books.


Godlike's argument was that Jason has become redundant as is now (since, according to him/her is just another Robin) and you have just proven my point, RHATO is a book completely different to anything the Bat line had back then and even now (until Gotham Acady hits at least)




> You are overlooking a lot of factors here where it seems like Lobdell's run was vastly more successful, but really wasn't. I'll explain why in detail. 
> 
> The reason for the jump in sales for #14 wasn't because of Superman but actually because of a quick Joker tease at the end of the issue. So Outlaws DotF tie in started with issue #14 really and lasted all the way to issue #17. Batgirl did this too I believe. Then issue #18 was the Robin Requiem issue, and if you go back two issues to issue #0 you had another event/gimmick with all the #0 issues in September. 
> 
> So out of Lobdell's last 7 issues 6 of them were tie ins to a gimmick or an event and that helped out Lobdell's sales a lot. They didn't have their normal decline. During Tynion whole run he only had one issue devoted to a gimmick/event, which was the Zero Year tie in. Though of course that tie in was never going to be as successful as a BIG Joker event. Tynion Zero Year issue did about as well as all the other Zero Year tie ins though. 
> 
> Still if you look at the % drop from issue to issue at ComicsBeat's sales charts then from issue #4 (usually the number where a book starts to settle) all the way to issue #12, and skipping the % gain on #9 (Court of Owls tie in) and the % drop on #10 (the book falling back down to its normal levels from the event), Lobdell's average decline was a -4.9% drop from issue to issue. Which is below average as most books would like to be under -3% at least. Then Tynion's % drop for his issues from #19 to #28, and again skipping the Zero Year event gain (#25) and following issue drop (#26), his average drop from issue to issue was a -5.1%. Worse than Lobdell's but not by much. I might cut Lobdell some slack on the issue #4 drop because of how the relaunch went with all the #1's being under ordered by quite a bit causing the % drops in the beginning to be non-typical for a while, but even shaving off some of the % their drop rates aren't that far apart. 
> 
> You also have to factor in that Tynion had pretty bad and inconsistent and teams to work with during his run, which might have turned a lot off, and also he was writing the series coming out of the DotF event and Requiem issue. The reason why this matters is that over the course of those 4-5 months the Outlaws book didn't have its normal decline as more people jumped on the book for the event, and the readers that would have left in the typical month to month decline stuck with the book through the event as well. Then when the event was over those readers that would have left but stuck around for the event left in bulk over the following months after Lobdell and the event were finished so the book saw big drops as it tries to fall back down to what its normal level would have been if the event had not happened. 
> ...


First thing first, issue 14 ending lead directly to the DOTF story. All the Batman books involved with DOTF had their tie-in (and it was even tagged like that) on issue 13. If anything the book who most abused of DOTF was Batgirl that was three issues long against the two the other books got (despite Batgirl's 13 just having a connection on its last two pages).

Other thing you have to miss is that amongst RHATO habitual readers everyone was SICK of the book being tie in central and were really looking forward at Tynion's run, you claim that Tynion suffered about inconsistent artists during his run but he had Gopez from start to finish on his League arc, Haun did the Zero Year tie in, Barrionuevo having the annual and Segovia doing his last issue. Lobdell had Green II, Alixe, Pasqual Ferry, Ig Guara, Ardian Syaf, Ken Lashley, Kirkham, Booth and Robson Rocha just during his last seven issues. Clearly Tynion got the best deal here.

And lastly, why everyone forgets about the WTF month? If anything Tynion should've started with a boost thanks to that gimmick.

----------


## napolid

> http://shevathegun.tumblr.com/post/9...ve-been-update
> http://shevathegun.tumblr.com/post/9...youre-going-to
> http://roserelease.tumblr.com/post/9...feels-rhato-34
> 
> That gave me a serious headache, and the author claims herself to be one of the biggest Jason fans.


Thank you I needed a good laugh




> let’s remake kori and jason as feminists. let’s make jason or roy (or both!) characters of color to make up for all the ones we’re missing now.

----------


## Badou

> Godlike's argument was that Jason has become redundant as is now (since, according to him/her is just another Robin) and you have just proven my point, RHATO is a book completely different to anything the Bat line had back then and even now (until Gotham Acady hits at least)


Well yeah, it was different from the Batman line just like how the Teen Titans book was different than the books in the Batman line too. It was just better than Teen Titans is all. I think Jason's character has become stagnate though, but I think the people who agree and disagree with that have discussed it enough already, haha. So I'll leave it there. 




> First thing first, issue 14 ending lead directly to the DOTF story. All the Batman books involved with DOTF had their tie-in (and it was even tagged like that) on issue 13. If anything the book who most abused of DOTF was Batgirl that was three issues long against the two the other books got (despite Batgirl's 13 just having a connection on its last two pages).
> 
> Other thing you have to miss is that amongst RHATO habitual readers everyone was SICK of the book being tie in central and were really looking forward at Tynion's run, you claim that Tynion suffered about inconsistent artists during his run but he had Gopez from start to finish on his League arc, Haun did the Zero Year tie in, Barrionuevo having the annual and Segovia doing his last issue. Lobdell had Green II, Alixe, Pasqual Ferry, Ig Guara, Ardian Syaf, Ken Lashley, Kirkham, Booth and Robson Rocha just during his last seven issues. Clearly Tynion got the best deal here.
> 
> And lastly, why everyone forgets about the WTF month? If anything Tynion should've started with a boost thanks to that gimmick.


Well DC cancelled WTF month and just had gate fold covers for an issue, #19 I believe. Still, #18 was the Robin Requiem issue which got a big boost so regardless #19 was going to drop in sales. I don't think the gate fold covers helped much. Maybe increased sales by 1% or less. 

And I don't think you can compare the art in Tynion's run given Lobdell had Rocafort in the beginning and then when he didn't have him nearly all of his issues tied into an event or a gimmick to boost sales. People jumped on board because it was the #0 issue, the DotF tie ins, and the Robin Requiem issue. Though regardless if Lobdell had more fill in artists I think his issues had better quality art still. That was my point. Tynion's issues did not look as good. I think if he had Rocafort for his issues people would look at his run a lot differently. 

I just don't think that Tynion's run did that bad in sales compared to Lobdell's, or was even that far off in terms of story quality. So it wasn't this massive failure that you are trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it was as good as Lobdell's, it wasn't, but sales wise and even story wise I don't think they were really far apart. It's just Lobdell had the massive amount of tie ins at the end of his run to make it seem better than it was. If Tynion had more tie ins, or if he had a Rocafort, his numbers would probably look better too. The thing is that if it wasn't for all those tie ins then the book would be a lot lower than it currently is even if Lobdell had stayed on it given how the sales were going. I think the book is where it is at not because of Tynion but because that is where the interest level is for a title like this with these characters is unless DC puts a top artist, a top writer, or drastically shakes things up with the team and the book. 

Also here is an aggregate site listing all the comic reviews for a series. I said I didn't think Tynion's run was as good as Lobdell's but I thought they were at least somewhat close. The biggest disparity is that Lobdell had Rocafort. I get that the sample size for those reviews isn't a lot, but the reviews for their two runs seem fairly consistent with one another from the people that were reading it. You don't see this huge gap or drop between them. 

http://www.comicbookroundup.com/comi...nd-the-outlaws

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Well DC cancelled WTF month and just had gate fold covers for an issue, #19 I believe. Still, #18 was the Robin Requiem issue which got a big boost so regardless #19 was going to drop in sales. I don't think the gate fold covers helped much. Maybe increased sales by 1% or less.


Eh, the gatefold covers WERE the WTF month. And considering how the DOTF tie ins hit the 50k range (i.e. an increase of 20k over the series regular numbers) while issue 18 pulled just 37k, I can say that the completionist sector of the market didn't saw it like something relevant leaving only the regular audience for the book.




> And I don't think you can compare the art in Tynion's run given Lobdell had Rocafort in the beginning and then when he didn't have him nearly all of his issues tied into an event or a gimmick to boost sales. People jumped on board because it was the #0 issue, the DotF tie ins, and the Robin Requiem issue. Though regardless if Lobdell had more fill in artists I think his issues had better quality art still. That was my point. Tynion's issues did not look as good. I think if he had Rocafort for his issues people would look at his run a lot differently. 
> 
> I just don't think that Tynion's run did that bad in sales compared to Lobdell's, or was even that far off in terms of story quality. So it wasn't this massive failure that you are trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it was as good as Lobdell's, it wasn't, but sales wise and even story wise I don't think they were really far apart. It's just Lobdell had the massive amount of tie ins at the end of his run to make it seem better than it was. If Tynion had more tie ins, or if he had a Rocafort, his numbers would probably look better too. The thing is that if it wasn't for all those tie ins then the book would be a lot lower than it currently is even if Lobdell had stayed on it given how the sales were going. I think the book is where it is at not because of Tynion but because that is where the interest level is for a title like this with these characters is unless DC puts a top artist, a top writer, or drastically shakes things up with the team and the book. 
> 
> Also here is an aggregate site listing all the comic reviews for a series. I said I didn't think Tynion's run was as good as Lobdell's but I thought they were at least somewhat close. The biggest disparity is that Lobdell had Rocafort. I get that the sample size for those reviews isn't a lot, but the reviews for their two runs seem fairly consistent with one another from the people that were reading it. You don't see this huge gap or drop between them. 
> 
> http://www.comicbookroundup.com/comi...nd-the-outlaws


You're moving the goalposts with your argument about artists, on your original post you made a distinction picking up just the final 4-5 months of Lobdell run and Rocafort was long gone by then (his last full issue was 10, while 11 had a backup story) and as bad Gopez is, he was an stable artist something that Lobdell lacked during those final months (and really, the only good artists that Lobdell had was Kirkham, all the others only did a few pages by issue).

Another thing I've noticed on your argument is that you treat every issue as if the book were still looking for an audience when in reality Lobdell left an established fanbase (one willing to stick with the book despite the subpar art, constant derail by Tie-ins and controversies) putting Tynion on a very comfortable place where he only worry would be to increase the audience, and yet under his pen the book sunk like a rock (I mean, 6k lost on just three months)

And frankly, I don't found that aggregate site trustworthy since it lacks a definite criteria on the reviews it accepts and the issue info isn't accurate (it list Suayan as the artist for 19 for example).

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> That`s a rather vague thing. He`s less or a mad dog so automatically he`s nicer. The old Jason never dealt with issues, was still growing and was written on purpose to be disliked under Starlin. 
> 
> This Jason is a grown man who has dealt his issues and does things whether Batman says yes or no, but does it with a collected mind and not because he`s angry towards Bruce. What you do have is actually some shades of Jason under Titans scriber Wolfman. The young but capable Jason who would actually give advice to Roy or Donna despite his age. I say Jason now is a more balanced character without falling into extremes. He`s got a colder sarcastic outsider but a big heart inside to those he cares about. 
> 
> By the waaaay, anyone noticed how in the Batman and Robin cover with Jason and co on Apokolips, Jason`s armor looks like a certain _Arkham Knight_?


This was an excellent post

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Jason is my favorite DC character and I just don't dig his book right now.It's frustrating.A lot of you guys have good ideas

----------


## Badou

> Eh, the gatefold covers WERE the WTF month. And considering how the DOTF tie ins hit the 50k range (i.e. an increase of 20k over the series regular numbers) while issue 18 pulled just 37k, I can say that the completionist sector of the market didn't saw it like something relevant leaving only the regular audience for the book.


No, WTF month was cancelled and there was no promotion for it like with normal gimmicks. You need to look at the other DC books, like Flash, where the gate fold covers only increased sales by 1% and weren't impacted by the DotF crossover and the Robin Requiem issue. That would show you how successful the covers were generally.  





> You're moving the goalposts with your argument about artists, on your original post you made a distinction picking up just the final 4-5 months of Lobdell run and Rocafort was long gone by then (his last full issue was 10, while 11 had a backup story) and as bad Gopez is, he was an stable artist something that Lobdell lacked during those final months (and really, the only good artists that Lobdell had was Kirkham, all the others only did a few pages by issue).
> 
> Another thing I've noticed on your argument is that you treat every issue as if the book were still looking for an audience when in reality Lobdell left an established fanbase (one willing to stick with the book despite the subpar art, constant derail by Tie-ins and controversies) putting Tynion on a very comfortable place where he only worry would be to increase the audience, and yet under his pen the book sunk like a rock (I mean, 6k lost on just three months)
> 
> And frankly, I don't found that aggregate site trustworthy since it lacks a definite criteria on the reviews it accepts and the issue info isn't accurate (it list Suayan as the artist for 19 for example).


How am I moving the goalposts? My whole argument is that Lobdell had better art than Tynion and I stand my that. Much better art in my opinion as the art on Tynion's run was quite rough. It's fine if you think Tynion had better art but I don't think he did. 

Honestly, your counter points aren't really making sense. I don't think Tynion was put on the book in a comfortable place. He was put on it coming out of a major event and, in my opinion, had lesser creative teams to work with and didn't have more tie ins to help out his run too. It was the opposite of comfortable as people tend to use those big events as jumping off points. It was sort of similar to Soul's Swamp Thing run. He was put on the book after the big Rotworld event and while that book saw great reviews still, and Tynion's run saw reviews that were about a step down from Lobdell's, that book also had major decline because everyone used the event as a good jumping off point. Batgirl was the same with its decline coming off of DotF too I believe. If Lobdell had stayed the book would have still had big drops. Maybe not as big but I think they would have been close. 

And I just showed you the numbers and their % drop and how they were similar. Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline, but all those tie ins and things helped him out a lot. Like I said reason it looked like Tynion's run lost a lot is because of how the DotF tie ins, #0 issue, and the Robin Requiem issue all stopped the readers who would have left under normal circumstances (normal arcs and issues) because they wanted to stick around for the event and things. After that was finished they left in larger numbers but the book was still ahead of where it would have been if it wasn't for the events and tie ins. So some people that would have left under normal circumstances had things like DotF not happened stuck around for Tynion's run

And I think the review site is good at looking at how people consistently reading a book feel about it. I mean the people that were reviewing Lobdell's run were also reviewing Tynion's run. As you can see they viewed the two runs somewhat similarly. There wasn't this massive gap between them. It's just that you try to make Tynion's run seem like it was like Ann Nocenti's Catwoman run when it wasn't.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline,


Above average decline compared to what exactly? Red Hood and the Outlaws, Red Lanterns and GL: New Guardians are the only new titles that made it this far.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No, WTF month was cancelled and there was no promotion for it like with normal gimmicks. You need to look at the other DC books, like Flash, where the gate fold covers only increased sales by 1% and weren't impacted by the DotF crossover and the Robin Requiem issue. That would show you how successful the covers were generally.


While DC scrapped the WTF logo, they still went forward with the concept, really, if you don't believe that the fold out cover with a question isn't more of a gimmick that a little Requiem logo (Let's not forget that Suayan's original cover with Damian was scrapped leaving just the one with Jason on it) I don't know what to tell you, heck, the whole issue 19 was scrapped thanks to the leak from Suayan.




> How am I moving the goalposts? My whole argument is that Lobdell had better art than Tynion and I stand my that. Much better art in my opinion as the art on Tynion's run was quite rough. It's fine if you think Tynion had better art but I don't think he did. 
> 
> Honestly, your counter points aren't really making sense. I don't think Tynion was put on the book in a comfortable place. He was put on it coming out of a major event and, in my opinion, had lesser creative teams to work with and didn't have more tie ins to help out his run too. It was the opposite of comfortable as people tend to use those big events as jumping off points. It was sort of similar to Soul's Swamp Thing run. He was put on the book after the big Rotworld event and while that book saw great reviews still, and Tynion's run saw reviews that were about a step down from Lobdell's, that book also had major decline because everyone used the event as a good jumping off point. Batgirl was the same with its decline coming off of DotF too I believe. If Lobdell had stayed the book would have still had big drops. Maybe not as big but I think they would have been close. 
> 
> And I just showed you the numbers and their % drop and how they were similar. Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline, but all those tie ins and things helped him out a lot. Like I said reason it looked like Tynion's run lost a lot is because of how the DotF tie ins, #0 issue, and the Robin Requiem issue all stopped the readers who would have left under normal circumstances (normal arcs and issues) because they wanted to stick around for the event and things. After that was finished they left in larger numbers but the book was still ahead of where it would have been if it wasn't for the events and tie ins. So some people that would have left under normal circumstances had things like DotF not happened stuck around for Tynion's run
> 
> And I think the review site is good at looking at how people consistently reading a book feel about it. I mean the people that were reviewing Lobdell's run were also reviewing Tynion's run. As you can see they viewed the two runs somewhat similarly. There wasn't this massive gap between them. It's just that you try to make Tynion's run seem like it was like Ann Nocenti's Catwoman run when it wasn't.


You made a point on your original post to single out Lobdell's last five issues focusing just on the (alleged) gimmicks they saw, when I pointed out how Lobdell's art team was all over the place you brought Rocafort on the argument despite he being off the title since issue 11. The comparison with Swamp Thing doesn't work because ST was already bleeding reader  thanks to Rot World. Soule was brought in to salvage the book and while he hasn't gotten Snyder's numbers the book has been stable under his watch (by the way, Batgirl has also keep its fanbase reporting numbers simlar to RHATO under Lobdell's pen).

If you're so sure that Lobdell only had gimmicks aiding him to get such numbers, how is then that Tynion's Zero Year tie in failed to break the 37k mark? Under your logic it should've been a sure seller, unless the book fanbase was losing interest and the criticism kept away a lot of potential customers that is.

Did you check the review agregator for single issue? There's only two or three stable reviewers on each issue, that's how it goes from 11 reviews on issue 6 to just 3 on issue 7 and the issues that have the same amount of reviews like 8 and 10 don't have the same reviewers, this fact is skewing badly the scores. 

And as for your last point, if you go on the reception on this board, Tynion run was as bad as Nocenti's.

----------


## kidstandout

@dark i can vouch for that. anyone trying to claim otherwise, see the fight with shiva lol.

----------


## oasis1313

I think Shiva is over-rated.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> I think Shiva is over-rated.


Care to explain as to why ?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So, Jason origin was pretty damn awesome. It didn't retcon anything and it just expanded upon things many have been wondering about, Jason and Bruce did have a fallout before Jason were killed, the WEIRDEST thing though is that Jason is still resurrected by cosmic events and then healed by the Pit, the All Caste is still canon while the League bull isn't, Lobdell NAILED why Jason took the Red Hood mantle and this

http://imgur.com/mH9mVTH

Should answer those wondering why Jason keeps helping Bruce, really pleased with this.

----------


## oasis1313

> Care to explain as to why ?


Yeah, she's supposed to make everybody start biting their nail at the mention of her name, but I don't see anything out of her beyond your typical generic comic book female assassin.

----------


## Aioros22

> So, Jason origin was pretty damn awesome. It didn't retcon anything and it just expanded upon things many have been wondering about, Jason and Bruce did have a fallout before Jason were killed, the WEIRDEST thing though is that Jason is still resurrected by cosmic events and then healed by the Pit, the All Caste is still canon while the League bull isn't, Lobdell NAILED why Jason took the Red Hood mantle and this
> 
> http://imgur.com/mH9mVTH
> 
> Should answer those wondering why Jason keeps helping Bruce, really pleased with this.


He`s helping because he feels he should, to me that is imperative. As long it`s not because of emotional management towards Bruce, it`s fine. "I`m not a kid. I`m not Robin" hell yeah!

The cosmic stuff, thought? Was is it detailed, explained, or is it Jason kind of wondering in his own POV over what happened?

I feel that part is unecessary, especially post reboot. But the Morrison mindset on editorial at hinting the Multiverse with "everything counts" wouldn`t probably rule it out.

----------


## DurararaFTW

We already knew that the lazarus pit and Talia weren't responsible for his initial resurrection since Red Hood and the Outlaws 3 or something.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I think Shiva is over-rated.


Lady Shiva has been getting jobbed out for awhile now.Nothing to fear imo

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He`s helping because he feels he should, to me that is imperative. As long it`s not because of emotional management towards Bruce, it`s fine. "I`m not a kid. I`m not Robin" hell yeah!
> 
> The cosmic stuff, thought? Was is it detailed, explained, or is it Jason kind of wondering in his own POV over what happened?
> 
> I feel that part is unecessary, especially post reboot. But the Morrison mindset on editorial at hinting the Multiverse with "everything counts" wouldn`t probably rule it out.


The way I read the scene is that Jason's helping because he can, not because he feels obliged to. And the last part about the Outlaw seem to imply that he will help but on his own terms.

The cosmic stuff:

http://imgur.com/mbmHTu9

Is pretty much a condensed version of Winick's scene on Batman Annual 25, I said cosmic stuff since while is obvious they're referencing Prime I doubt he exists anymore.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

So for those keeping track, what is the exact explanation for Jason's current body suit? We know it belonged to Dick Grayson, but when did he ever wear a Nightwing-styled Batman Beyond body suit?

Is Jason wearing all of it or just the chest armor?

----------


## K. Jones

No explanation other than it was in Dick's closet, basically. Though alt-costumes are sort of part and parcel of the whole Batman and Robin thing. 

Lobdell's next bit of revisionist history just came out in Secret Origins # 5. It didn't dial back any "Secret History of the Chosen One" tropes or anything, and the characterization and lack of Batmobile hubcap thieving were lame, but I thought there was good elements as well. I really liked a few things. More of just youthful Jason zipping around being a hoodlum is good fun. The cavalier way he remembers (misremembers?) Bruce introducing him to the Cave, the life, and the Robin job is less dramatic than it should be but very "Jason" in the telling (and kind of fits how nonchalantly he was introduced in the 80s). But I especially liked the implicit in-text showing of his decision to take on the Red Hood moniker, and that he was looking at the Hood costume in a "Villain Display" in a pop crime museum. That's golden - my favorite Jason moment of the year when he sees his reflection in the pillbox helmet (which, incidentally and accidentally because it's red, makes him look like a ginger). Cut to basically "Under the Hood" and some pithy dialogue about how "Our reunion didn't go that well ..."

Good comics. Smart to link up his origins with Leslie Thompkins as well.

I even liked the New 52-ized version of Mahnke's Under the Hood costume.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No explanation other than it was in Dick's closet, basically. Though alt-costumes are sort of part and parcel of the whole Batman and Robin thing. 
> 
> Lobdell's next bit of revisionist history just came out in Secret Origins # 5. *It didn't dial back any "Secret History of the Chosen One"* tropes or anything, and the characterization and lack of Batmobile hubcap thieving were lame, but I thought there was good elements as well. I really liked a few things. More of just youthful Jason zipping around being a hoodlum is good fun. The cavalier way he remembers (misremembers?) Bruce introducing him to the Cave, the life, and the Robin job is less dramatic than it should be but very "Jason" in the telling (and kind of fits how nonchalantly he was introduced in the 80s). But I especially liked the implicit in-text showing of his decision to take on the Red Hood moniker, and that he was looking at the Hood costume in a "Villain Display" in a pop crime museum. That's golden - my favorite Jason moment of the year when he sees his reflection in the pillbox helmet (which, incidentally and accidentally because it's red, makes him look like a ginger). Cut to basically "Under the Hood" and some pithy dialogue about how "Our reunion didn't go that well ..."
> 
> Good comics. Smart to link up his origins with Leslie Thompkins as well.
> 
> I even liked the New 52-ized version of Mahnke's Under the Hood costume.


I can't help but wonder if Jason dialogue of "I'd be lying, but you tried _uh?_" was Lobdell rejecting/criticizing Tynion's poor run. Aside of that, I totally agree that it was great and fits perfectly with Jason's characterization on the N52. Is very odd that they confirmed Jason being resurrected but something cosmic though (but not too odd, it was alluded way back on issue 2)

----------


## MichaelAngel0

Wow. 

I gotta admit, I really enjoyed that Jason Todd origin. Not nearly as dark as I'd hoped, but very, very good. I admit, I was wrong for doubting Lobdell's Jason Todd writing skills.

Now if only we could get a solo Red Hood book. Or if he's gonna be paired with someone, have it be with people that make more sense for a Bat-character like Jason: Nu52 version of Scarlet/Mia Dearden/Cassandra Cain.

And try to get Lobdell back, if possible.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I need to read this fast

----------


## Kalethas31

I like secret origin jason

----------


## oasis1313

[QUOTE=K. Jones;457396]No explanation other than it was in Dick's closet, basically. Though alt-costumes are sort of part and parcel of the whole Batman and Robin thing. 

I thought it was in Kory's closet, along with the clothes from several thousand other male creatures.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Jason is such a unique character and I am glad to hear of this Secret Origin project.
I also have to say Jason's hate towards the Joker has only made him more aggressive than Bruce ever intended, but that is not always a bad thing. Watching what the character has been put through since A Death in the Family it is no wonder Jason grew up into this unsettled man. Im not sure Bruce can really do anything about it now. Kind of like myself and my own student years ago. I know now I am not responsible for his later drug use (thank god he quit)but sometimes compare him to the Jason character.

----------


## godisawesome

Hearing all this praise for the Secret Origin makes me feel like I need to ask a question of its supporters, since I know that I'm massively biased against Lobdell for Teen Titans and some of his other stuff, and most of the online reviews. I've read disparage the story to an extent:

Doesn't it still kind of lack a why for Jason becoming Robin and a how to his resurrection? Lobdell does have a good voice for Jason; I'll admit that. But the biggest change from the classic origin (that wasn't tied to abridging the whole thing) is the lack of the stealing tires from the Batmobile scene. In RHATO #0, it seemed rather contrived that Bruce gets guilt-tripped by Thompkins ( I like her being in the story, mind you) and just feels he needs a Robin. The tire scene is a stronger moment because it highlights Jason's guts and audacity, and if maintained without any direct change, it infers the technical skill needed to get past the Batmobile's defenses. That all does add up to an argument for Bruce trying to make sure this brave and intelligent kid gets off the streets. I don't see that in the current origin.

And are we still following a lack of explanation for Jason's resurrection? Is it really that hard to just show Talia or Ra's dipping him in the Pit?

----------


## Jason Todd

I think towards the end of the last continuity they were down playing Jason's ability to steal the wheels as they were implying the car wasn't complete and the security features weren't activated, That was standard as they were trying to portray Jason as reckless and impulsive, think there was a Nightwing story that had him as a complete ass. It seems to me that this "venom" story might be another reason to get Jason closer to Bruce as Bruce has been on venom before hasn't he? (or has that been put in the "it's out till it's in bin")

----------


## CapeandCowl

I have no idea, but I just wanted to say hi and welcome u to the Forums!
How long have u been a Jason Todd fan?

----------


## Jason Todd

My first book was a Batman #410 as a kid, and I still have it. If it says anything about me I have a small collection based around Bucky as well. But Cheers bud, Hopefully I wont make too much of a clown of myself lol. As for the venom angle It was in the Legends of the Dark Knight book was a Denny O'Neil story, but can't remember the issues numbers and with the compressed timeline it might be out.

----------


## CapeandCowl

Yes, my knowledge of the comic books is sadly outdated it would appear and I know nothing of The New 52 or Zero Year or even everything being done to retcon Jason. But I have seen the Under the Red Hood movie and it moved me, and is a favorite.

----------


## Jason Todd

Yea, the movie addressed alot of what was wrong with Jason's return. The "New-52" still has alot of holes in it in regards to the historical events and what has or hasn't happened. As far as where Jason should be heading Was thinking maybe a "Bat op's" Team so to speak, I think that it could be a natural progression for all the outlaws to move on to other teams now, Roy and Kori would be a good fit in a mentoring role with the titans and Jason can be teamed with either Tim ( I think it would be a good fit, they seem to have a good relationship) or with Barbara ( After Eternal and her new found "darkness" she could work well with Jason) and carry out the missions that Bruce doesn't really want "Batman and Robin" associated with.

----------


## CapeandCowl

I was told that there were two "first" meetings between Jason and Tim Drake. One had them fight each other and apparently Jason won, and the New 52 version has them more like comrades. I like the latter choice more, as Jason should be in a mentor-ish role towards Tim. He would know how it feels to be Robin and having to fight Batman's rogue gallery and maybe even have occasional arguments with Batman.

----------


## Jason Todd

The New 52 version also has Tim not wanting to be Robin out of respect for Jason, Hence Red Robin (Taking The previous origin of the Costume of the table). The only problem with having Jason teaming up with Tim or Barbara (I don't see it a an issue though) is some people will not like the calming effect they will have on Jason and and the vise versa the effect Jason will have on them, Also some quarters are scared of Jason Being too close to the "Bat-family", But at the end of the day He is a former Robin and while they don't have to see eye to eye on tactics and methods (and yes Bruce can tell Alfred to count the Batarangs after Jason leaves), He should be trusted enough to be relied on and When it comes out the Dick is still alive He should stand with Tim and Barbara as a unit against Bruce's deception. I think the format for Jason (And Tim) as "Solo" heroes was set by Dick and no matter what they do in the future they will always be treading the path set by Dick, So they need to embrace the "Bat" aspect of their lives and firstly get Jason edited out of the Bat-office.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hearing all this praise for the Secret Origin makes me feel like I need to ask a question of its supporters, since I know that I'm massively biased against Lobdell for Teen Titans and some of his other stuff, and most of the online reviews. I've read disparage the story to an extent:
> 
> Doesn't it still kind of lack a why for Jason becoming Robin and a how to his resurrection? Lobdell does have a good voice for Jason; I'll admit that. But the biggest change from the classic origin (that wasn't tied to abridging the whole thing) is the lack of the stealing tires from the Batmobile scene. In RHATO #0, it seemed rather contrived that Bruce gets guilt-tripped by Thompkins ( I like her being in the story, mind you) and just feels he needs a Robin. The tire scene is a stronger moment because it highlights Jason's guts and audacity, and if maintained without any direct change, it infers the technical skill needed to get past the Batmobile's defenses. That all does add up to an argument for Bruce trying to make sure this brave and intelligent kid gets off the streets. I don't see that in the current origin.
> 
> And are we still following a lack of explanation for Jason's resurrection? Is it really that hard to just show Talia or Ra's dipping him in the Pit?


While I agree the tire stealing was a classic, this new origin also showcases Jason's recklessness and guts (he runs face first into Bruce and his reaction is to fight him) while also tying better Leslie into the bat-mythos. Bruce doesn't get guilt tripped by Leslie and he takes Jason under his wing because he sees himself on Jason and is trying to make amends with himself by helping this street kid. Jason calls him out on this during their breakdown shortly before Jason's death.

Plus, a street kid stealing the Batmobile's tires isn't believable with Batman's current direction that have him ready for anything (and as it was pointed out before, they had to start justifying things on the old DCU)




> Yea, the movie addressed alot of what was wrong with Jason's return. The "New-52" still has alot of holes in it in regards to the historical events and what has or hasn't happened. As far as where Jason should be heading Was thinking maybe a "Bat op's" Team so to speak, I think that it could be a natural progression for all the outlaws to move on to other teams now, Roy and Kori would be a good fit in a mentoring role with the titans and Jason can be teamed with either Tim ( I think it would be a good fit, they seem to have a good relationship) or with Barbara ( After Eternal and her new found "darkness" she could work well with Jason) and carry out the missions that Bruce doesn't really want "Batman and Robin" associated with.


Kory's current depiction is to make her Superman equal (or at least on his same tier) so having them just mentoring the titans is a little of a regression. Plus she doesn't really knows how to guide people thanks to her trust issues, Roy fits the mentor role better but he's on a weird place where he lacks a definite connection to GA, his friendship with Croc is on a limbo thanks to Eternal and Roy is pretty much only acknowledged by the Outlaws. To move him out of the team would need to give him either a miniseries or a few arcs to re stablish him into the larger DCU.




> I was told that there were two "first" meetings between Jason and Tim Drake. One had them fight each other and apparently Jason won, and the New 52 version has them more like comrades. I like the latter choice more, as Jason should be in a mentor-ish role towards Tim. He would know how it feels to be Robin and having to fight Batman's rogue gallery and maybe even have occasional arguments with Batman.


It was mentioned that when Jason came back he fought every member of the bat family but Tim is willing to give him a pass thanks to his circumstances (coming back from the dead) and since Tim admired Jason's tenure as Robin they're pretty much brothers now.




> The New 52 version also has Tim not wanting to be Robin out of respect for Jason, Hence Red Robin (Taking The previous origin of the Costume of the table). The only problem with having Jason teaming up with Tim or Barbara (I don't see it a an issue though) is some people will not like the calming effect they will have on Jason and and the vise versa the effect Jason will have on them, Also some quarters are scared of Jason Being too close to the "Bat-family", But at the end of the day He is a former Robin and while they don't have to see eye to eye on tactics and methods (and yes Bruce can tell Alfred to count the Batarangs after Jason leaves), He should be trusted enough to be relied on and When it comes out the Dick is still alive He should stand with Tim and Barbara as a unit against Bruce's deception. I think the format for Jason (And Tim) as "Solo" heroes was set by Dick and no matter what they do in the future they will always be treading the path set by Dick, So they need to embrace the "Bat" aspect of their lives and firstly get Jason edited out of the Bat-office.


Jason relationship with Barbara has been awfully badly written on Eternal since its focus was to show how great Barbara was and not how they would really feel (and actually Jason has also written  if not badly if somewhat ooc). Barbara wasn't letting go Jason from his past mistakes and so she was the most hostile member of the batclan towards him so until they work that out a team up is off the table (and given Barbara new's direction is even more unlikely). With Tim the issue is that he's following a different path on Eternal that on Teen Titans so is needed to pick a direction for him before a team up with another member of the bat family can work.

----------


## oasis1313

My idea is that Jason sees the other Bat-Family members as weak and too lilly-livered to do what NEEDS to be done.  His methods and philosophy make him a renegade.  If he showed up at family reunions, it'd be just to rankle them all.  I think he should be the first to find out Dick isn't dead, then go to Wayne Shack and break Bruce's jaw for him; he's the only one who has the guts to do it.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> My idea is that Jason sees the other Bat-Family members as weak and too lilly-livered to do what NEEDS to be done.  His methods and philosophy make him a renegade.  If he showed up at family reunions, it'd be just to rankle them all.  I think he should be the first to find out Dick isn't dead, then go to Wayne Shack and break Bruce's jaw for him; he's the only one who has the guts to do it.


Hahahahaha

----------


## oasis1313

> Hahahahaha


Okay, then, once Jason gets done overdosing on Bane Venom, he can go break Bruce's back for him.  Again.  I'm down with that.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Okay, then, once Jason gets done overdosing on Bane Venom, he can go break Bruce's back for him.  Again.  I'm down with that.


I would like him less friendly with the Bat family and more solo.I would like to see him get his own original cast and crew like Dick got when he moved to Blud Haven

----------


## kidstandout

here's a thought, go the aquaman route.

keep rhato and give him a solo as well. rhato will continue in the same tone as it is and his solo could be more grounded with his own supporting cast

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> here's a thought, go the aquaman route.
> 
> keep rhato and give him a solo as well. rhato will continue in the same tone as it is and his solo could be more grounded with his own supporting cast


That would be absolutely perfect.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> here's a thought, go the aquaman route.
> 
> keep rhato and give him a solo as well. rhato will continue in the same tone as it is and his solo could be more grounded with his own supporting cast


If that happened that would be excellent. My only question is does anyone here believe that Jason can hold down both a solo and a team book while having both of them selling decent enough to avoid cancellation?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If that happened that would be excellent. My only question is does anyone here believe that Jason can hold down both a solo and a team book while having both of them selling decent enough to avoid cancellation?


Assuming that Lobdell (maybe Pak) would be on on the solo and it has complete freedom, absolutely, specially because the solo would rekindle interest on RHATO more effectively. Then again, isn't like DC's being picky on the books green lighted nowadays, does someone really expected a Klarion book?

----------


## oasis1313

> Assuming that Lobdell (maybe Pak) would be on on the solo and it has complete freedom, absolutely, specially because the solo would rekindle interest on RHATO more effectively. Then again, isn't like DC's being picky on the books green lighted nowadays, does someone really expected a Klarion book?


I'd be down with the legacy characters having their solo books, plus a team book--such as Dick, Jason, Damian, Steph, Cass, and Bat-Cow --having adventures and interacting together.  I think it would sell more product than (choke) Klarion the Witchboy (gawd, who got Didio drunk enough to give a go-ahead on THAT?!).

----------


## phonogram12

It would be awesome if Tim, Dick, Jason, Damian, Steph, and Cass showed up in Batman & Robin!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Maybe they'll show up in Tomasi's story and kick total ass.


After the massive trainwreck that was the Grief storyline I don't believe Tomasi to be able to do justice to the characters. He seems to be only a good writer when having Damian as tether.

----------


## Dzetoun

> After the massive trainwreck that was the Grief storyline I don't believe Tomasi to be able to do justice to the characters. He seems to be only a good writer when having Damian as tether.


In fairness, the idea behind the grief storyline was appropriate to the events, and it started off extremely well with the silent issue.  But, as is the custom with Tomasi, things dragged on much, much too long and got badly out of hand, ending up with Jason tricked into recalling his death and Frankenstein vivisected.  It's telling that last issue even Tomasi kind of said, "Well, that was too much, so never mind and let's all be friends again (and while we're at it let's forget that mess with the Joker, too)."

----------


## brenster21

> Guys, guys, JASON IS IN ARKHAM KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/dZ2lyXe.jpg
> 
> Love that design


I had no plans on preording this but now that it includes jason todd. i am probably gonna have to. ug

----------


## thorki

Jason Todd  is a babe

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason Todd  is a babe


With big guns.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> With big guns.


I still think he needs his own series

----------


## oasis1313

> I still think he needs his own series


I will say ditto to that.  I regard Kory and Roy as hindrances to him.  Who would be the ULTIMATE BADASS Batman--Jason or Damian?

----------


## phonogram12

As long as we get to keep the absolutely excellent RH&TO, they could add any ol' Red Hood title they like.

----------


## oasis1313

> As long as we get to keep the absolutely excellent RH&TO, they could add any ol' Red Hood title they like.


I think "adding to" is a good idea.  Batman gets to have multiple solo books and team books.  All the Robins should have their own solo titles and their own team books.

----------


## The Conductor

Personally,  I think Jason works best when he has a foil or two to counterbalance him. What I _would_ like to see, is a fourth member of the Outsiders (maybe a New52 Obsidian) who is a bit more willing to indulge Jason's darker tendencies.

----------


## ceve4life

I just finished Under the Red Hood and loved it! Have read the first two volumes of Red Hood New 52 and think it's great and am loving the storyline...but I have to agree with some people. Red Hood needs a solo gig. Sometimes it feels like it is more about Starfire than anything because of the sexuality she brings to the series.

----------


## oasis1313

> I just finished Under the Red Hood and loved it! Have read the first two volumes of Red Hood New 52 and think it's great and am loving the storyline...but I have to agree with some people. Red Hood needs a solo gig. Sometimes it feels like it is more about Starfire than anything because of the sexuality she brings to the series.


That has ALWAYS been a problem with Starfire from the time she was introduced.  Artists like drawing her, and writers like giving opportunities for artists to draw her--and who can blame these guys?  I would suggest giving her own solo title so she won't hog JASON'S book.

----------


## phonogram12

I wouldn't say she's hogging Jason''s book in the least. If anything, she (along with Roy) reflects what's great about him.

----------


## Kurisu

> That has ALWAYS been a problem with Starfire from the time she was introduced.  Artists like drawing her, and writers like giving opportunities for artists to draw her--and who can blame these guys?  I would suggest giving her own solo title so she won't hog JASON'S book.


It's not JASON'S book though. It's Red Hood *and* the Outlaws.

----------


## oasis1313

> It's not JASON'S book though. It's Red Hood *and* the Outlaws.


Yes.  Red Hood and the Outlaws.  Not The Outlaws and Red Hood.  It doesn't matter who the "Outlaws" are at any given time--Red Hood is the one selling this book, and you could replace Roy and Kory with Connor Queen and Power Girl--and it wouldn't matter.

----------


## phonogram12

> Yes.  Red Hood and the Outlaws.  Not The Outlaws and Red Hood.  It doesn't matter who the "Outlaws" are at any given time--Red Hood is the one selling this book, and you could replace Roy and Kory with Connor Queen and Power Girl--and it wouldn't matter.


It certainly would to me. A lot of other fans it seems, too.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> As long as we get to keep the absolutely excellent RH&TO, they could add any ol' Red Hood title they like.


I agree. I'd like to have more Red Hood to read myself.




> Yes.  Red Hood and the Outlaws.  Not The Outlaws and Red Hood.  It doesn't matter who the "Outlaws" are at any given time--Red Hood is the one selling this book, and you could replace Roy and Kory with Connor Queen and Power Girl--and it wouldn't matter.


To me it would matter though and I agree with phonogram12 that it would matter to a lot of fans. These are three down and out former heroes and I can't really think of anyone thus far introduced in the N52 that fit that bill as well as they do.

----------


## oasis1313

> To me it would matter though and I agree with phonogram12 that it would matter to a lot of fans. These are three down and out former heroes and I can't really think of anyone thus far introduced in the N52 that fit that bill as well as they do.


I don't see Kory as down and out.  Roy and Jason, yes, but not Kory.  There was that slavery stuff when she was a child, but it was all just an excuse to draw good-girl art anyway.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't see Kory as down and out.  Roy and Jason, yes, but not Kory.  There was that slavery stuff when she was a child, but it was all just an excuse to draw good-girl art anyway.


Different strokes. I agree she is less the "down and out" hero then the other two(I doubt very seriously that she views herself as a hero at all TBH) but she feels like she doesn't fit in anywhere, whether that is on Earth or her home world just like Roy and Jason do and she is surely just as damaged by her past as those two are. That is what connects them all. Can you name any other characters currently in the DCU that this applies to?

----------


## oasis1313

> Different strokes. I agree she is less the "down and out" hero then the other two(I doubt very seriously that she views herself as a hero at all TBH) but she feels like she doesn't fit in anywhere, whether that is on Earth or her home world just like Roy and Jason do and she is surely just as damaged by her past as those two are. That is what connects them all.


I don't see Jason complaining that he doesn't fit in; he shouldn't have that lack of confidence.  He will make his environment fit HIM.  As for Kory, her figure will ensure that she fits in wherever there are men who aren't blind.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't see Jason complaining that he doesn't fit in; he shouldn't have that lack of confidence.  He will make his environment fit HIM.  As for Kory, her figure will ensure that she fits in wherever there are men who aren't blind.


He doesn't says as much about it, no, but some of his actions certainly show that there are times that he is uncomfortable both with the rest of his family and even with his team. And I don't think Kori thinks that shallowly of herself although she is certainly aware of men's reaction to her body. It doesn't matter that to her that she may fit in because she is a "good looking woman" what matters is that she felt and maybe still feels just as out of place and alien on Earth as she did on her home world.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

A Jason stuate is coming from Kotobukiya!!!!

http://www.plastikitty.com/home/koto...red-hood-artfx

Sadly, is seems very likely that they will use the idiotic expressive helmet and not the smooth one, hope they can made it look cool and not dumb.

----------


## Aioros22

> I wouldn't say she's hogging Jason''s book in the least. If anything, she (along with Roy) reflects what's great about him.


That`s part of the charm. 

I think Jason got plenty of confidence, but he sometimes comes across as someone who is not at ease with some emotions and trust as Dick is. Part of it is character, other is background. Everyone got an Achilles Heel.

----------


## Aioros22

> A Jason stuate is coming from Kotobukiya!!!!
> 
> http://www.plastikitty.com/home/koto...red-hood-artfx
> 
> Sadly, is seems very likely that they will use the idiotic expressive helmet and not the smooth one, hope they can made it look cool and not dumb.


Is Jason the first in line?

----------


## Kalethas31

> Different strokes. I agree she is less the "down and out" hero then the other two(I doubt very seriously that she views herself as a hero at all TBH) but she feels like she doesn't fit in anywhere, whether that is on Earth or her home world just like Roy and Jason do and she is surely just as damaged by her past as those two are. That is what connects them all. Can you name any other characters currently in the DCU that this applies to?


Kara Zor-El
http://geekmom.com/wp-content/upload...10/SG_35_5.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is Jason the first in line?


What do you mean?

I assume is part of their N52 line that so far has made the league, Black Adam, Shazam, Supergirl, Catwoman, Nightwing and Damian.

----------


## oasis1313

> What do you mean?
> 
> I assume is part of their N52 line that so far has made the league, Black Adam, Shazam, Supergirl, Catwoman, Nightwing and Damian.


In line for what?

----------


## Aioros22

> What do you mean?
> 
> I assume is part of their N52 line that so far has made the league, Black Adam, Shazam, Supergirl, Catwoman, Nightwing and Damian.


I mean of the Outlaws. Im thinking the whole group is supposed to be released?

----------


## oasis1313

> A Jason stuate is coming from Kotobukiya!!!!
> 
> http://www.plastikitty.com/home/koto...red-hood-artfx
> 
> Sadly, is seems very likely that they will use the idiotic expressive helmet and not the smooth one, hope they can made it look cool and not dumb.


Does anyone have a pic of the statue itself?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Does anyone have a pic of the statue itself?


They haven't even started working on it, maybe at Toyfair.

----------


## oasis1313

> They haven't even started working on it, maybe at Toyfair.


What a bunch of turkeys.  Do the sculpt before the cover art.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Some fanart:

----------


## oasis1313

Whoever drew the second pic should go pro.  But I like Jason better with his hood on; I like him throwing that fail in Batman's face.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

As january RHATO is part of the JL family of books, so uh, are we gonna get moved to the general DC subforum?

----------


## Aioros22

Editorial change or something?

Anyhow, it`s still a titular character heavily featured in Batman crossovers. Wait and see.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not that I know, is just being grouped there on the solicits.

And hey, Crux is back. I didn't see that coming.

----------


## OJ4

i read my first red hood Trade which was part of the 'death of the family' event. i really enjoyed the book and wanted to read the monthly but the artwork kinda turned me off it appeared different than what i saw in the DotF trade.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Would anyone else want to see a Red Hood-solo ongoing by David Lapham (Stray Bullets, Young Liars, Batman: City of Crime)?

----------


## oasis1313

> Would anyone else want to see a Red Hood-solo ongoing by David Lapham (Stray Bullets, Young Liars, Batman: City of Crime)?


I'd take a Red Hood solo written by almost anybody right now--just get rid of Roy and Kory.

----------


## phonogram12

As long as we don't lose the superlative RH&TO and the cast that includes Roy and Starfire DC could release a book featuring Jason wearing a tutu and a tiara for all I care.

----------


## oasis1313

> As long as we don't lose the superlative RH&TO and the cast that includes Roy and Starfire DC could release a book featuring Jason wearing a tutu and a tiara for all I care.


Jason could probably get a pair of .44's under the tutu somewhere.

----------


## phonogram12

He'd probably need tips on how to throw the tiara from Wonder Woman, though.

----------


## oasis1313

> He'd probably need tips on how to throw the tiara from Wonder Woman, though.


Jason would make an exploding tiarra.

----------


## madrox83

Has Red Hood ever gone up against Deathstroke? Seems like it would be an interesting story.

----------


## oasis1313

> As january RHATO is part of the JL family of books, so uh, are we gonna get moved to the general DC subforum?


Why in the world would RHATO be considered a JL book?  Oh, well, it's good news to get Jason away from the Bat-Books.  Heck, it'd be great to get Batman away from the Bat-Editors!

----------


## phonogram12

> Why in the world would RHATO be considered a JL book?  Oh, well, it's good news to get Jason away from the Bat-Books.  Heck, it'd be great to get Batman away from the Bat-Editors!


As long as Roy and Starfire stick around it's all good!

----------


## Dzetoun

> As january RHATO is part of the JL family of books, so uh, are we gonna get moved to the general DC subforum?


They probably just grouped the solicits that way to balance the releases about little better.

----------


## oasis1313

> Has Red Hood ever gone up against Deathstroke? Seems like it would be an interesting story.


I'd like to see Jason kick Slade's butt from here to the Amazon River.

----------


## phonogram12

> I'd like to see Jason kick Slade's butt from here to the Amazon River.


Never gonna happen. The way they've been building up Slade the past few years, that would entirely a step backwards in what DC is trying to do with him.

----------


## nj06

This may have been discussed already, but why does Batman let Jason Todd operate if he goes around killing people? Isn't Batman suppose to be against killing? When Superman appeared in RHatO, didn't he mention something along the lines of Batman vouching for the or giving them a pass? I figured Batman would wan to try to stop RH or be strongly against his methods.

Also, I hope this title moves away from the Batverse. Having Jason there allows there to be a connection to the Batverse, but I don't want RHatO to be considered a batbook. I like it centered more with the mainstream DC universe rather than being strictly a batbook. 


Also, how old would you all say Jason is? I say he's about 21, since I think he can drink legally in the US. Thoughts?

I also really like the relationship between Jason Todd and Starfire. I'm glad the two of them seem to be good friends who have a mutual respect for one another.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> This may have been discussed already, but why does Batman let Jason Todd operate if he goes around killing people? Isn't Batman suppose to be against killing? When Superman appeared in RHatO, didn't he mention something along the lines of Batman vouching for the or giving them a pass? I figured Batman would wan to try to stop RH or be strongly against his methods.


Yeah, it seems out of character for Batman to turn a blind eye to Jason, when in Forever Evil he's adamant about imposing his no-kill rule on a group of supervillains.




> Also, I hope this title moves away from the Batverse. Having Jason there allows there to be a connection to the Batverse, but I don't want RHatO to be considered a batbook. I like it centered more with the mainstream DC universe rather than being strictly a batbook.


Probably works better that way. His placement in the Bat family is really awkward, as others tend to act out of character when around him. He's better off separating himself and having his own adventures than just being Bat sidekick #3 in Bat fam crossovers. Batgirl and Red Robin probably need to separate themselves a bit, too.




> Also, how old would you all say Jason is? I say he's about 21, since I think he can drink legally in the US. Thoughts?


Dick and Barbara are both 21, so he'd be younger. Probably 19-20, and he just has a fake ID.

----------


## Dzetoun

> It may have been discussed already, but why does Batman let Jason Todd operate if he goes around killing people? Isn't Batman suppose to be against killing? When Superman appeared in RHatO, didn't he mention something along the lines of Batman vouching for the or giving them a pass? I figured Batman would wan to try to stop RH or be strongly against his methods.





> Yeah, it seems out of character for Batman to turn a blind eye to Jason, when in Forever Evil he's adamant about imposing his no-kill rule on a group of supervillains.



I think sometimes the simple answers are the best ones.  Batman is adamant about his rules in _Forever Evil_ precisely *because* he is dealing with a bunch of acknowledged villains.  As for Jason, at the risk of being sappy, Batman loves him.  He also feels perpetual guilt over the things that have happened to Jason.  And because he loves him and because he feels guilty he makes exceptions and excuses (it isn't really Jason's fault, it's Batman's fault, etc.) and even interferes to protect him, likely not letting his right hand know what his left is doing much of the time.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think sometimes the simple answers are the best ones.  Batman is adamant about his rules in _Forever Evil_ precisely *because* he is dealing with a bunch of acknowledged villains.  As for Jason, at the risk of being sappy, Batman loves him.  He also feels perpetual guilt over the things that have happened to Jason.  And because he loves him and because he feels guilty he makes exceptions and excuses (it isn't really Jason's fault, it's Batman's fault, etc.) and even interferes to protect him, likely not letting his right hand know what his left is doing much of the time.


Besides, Jason has been really subdued on lethality  for the most of the N52. His only kills during Lobdell's first run were The untitled sheriff (a mystical creature), The Chinese Talon, Suzie Zu and her goons, the Qurac Mercs/Army that wanted to execute Roy. Other thing to consider is that Bruce does turn a blind eye to Jason activities when the situation demands it as the Warworld story showed.

On other things, Jason showed up on this fan series. Pretty cool looking suit,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-DMUJTWrf8

----------


## AJpyro

I'm all for moving away from the Bat family. As I stated before I'd like to go more into a story arc about Kori and Roy and making a different supporting class for the book.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think sometimes the simple answers are the best ones.  Batman is adamant about his rules in _Forever Evil_ precisely *because* he is dealing with a bunch of acknowledged villains.  As for Jason, at the risk of being sappy, Batman loves him.  He also feels perpetual guilt over the things that have happened to Jason.  And because he loves him and because he feels guilty he makes exceptions and excuses (it isn't really Jason's fault, it's Batman's fault, etc.) and even interferes to protect him, likely not letting his right hand know what his left is doing much of the time.


The main line to me is also simple. Jason still kills but:

a) not as often as he did pre-reboot

b) he targets mercenaries, alien invaders, soldiers, evil organizations, monsters, etc. Not fellow heroes, not family, not cops (unless they are dirty and he`s investigating someone I suppose). 

This makes Batman vouching for Jason more rational. He doesn`t agree with the _methods_ but Jason`s goals are similar. He just usually targets different kinds of evil than your usual supervillain. 

This also makes Jason`s encounters with the Bat family feel more organic: they dont feel at ease because they know the kind of methods he uses, because of his background and what happened to him, but since Jason isn`t written as a villain type any longer, he`s still doing something for the greater good, despite it being more on his own terms and not so much being a "robin" 24/7. Thus far he`s been "robin" when it was required: when the family`s been in the sink and when the planet`s been in danger of invasions.

----------


## Punisher007

Batman also let Damian stay on as Robin after he'd killed people.  So it seems like the "no killing" rule is a bit more "flexible" these days.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

I remember an issue of Batman and Robin where Jason avoided killing people in Gotham by shooting them in the feet. Jason just won't kill people in front of Batman hence why Batman can close his eyes regarding Jason general behavior.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Batman also let Damian stay on as Robin after he'd killed people.  So it seems like the "no killing" rule is a bit more "flexible" these days.


You also have to take into account that Snyder is now saying, in accordance with the changes he made in the relevant issues of _Batman_ for the trades, that Batman set out to kill the Joker in DOTF, or rather to trick the Joker into killing himself.  And when he picked up that sword and went after Talia at the end of _Batman Incorporated_, it probably wasn't to chastise her with the flat side.  He didn't precisely take it very calmly when he thought Luthor had killed Dick in _Forever Evil_, either.  We aren't precisely dealing with the _Infinite Crisis/UTRH_ Batman, here.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Jason still kills,he's just added a lot more to his character.As long as Batman doesn't change him into one of his many sheep,i'm okay with him helping once in awhile.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I don't mind if Jason wants to help out the rest of the Bats once in awhile or that he wants to tone down his methods a bit when he is doing so. To me it shows a bit of maturity on Jason's part that he's willing to make such a compromise with the family that he has, in the past, felt wronged by. It also fits in with the whole idea of him trying to let his rage at them go which Starfire mentions he should do early on in the series.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah, I don't mind if Jason wants to help out the rest of the Bats once in awhile or that he wants to tone down his methods a bit when he is doing so. To me it shows a bit of maturity on Jason's part that he's willing to make such a compromise with the family that he has, in the past, felt wronged by. It also fits in with the whole idea of him trying to let his rage at them go which Starfire mentions he should do early on in the series.


I don't think Jason should make nice with ANYBODY.  He's turning into Mr. Congeniality.  He should stay away from the Bat-Sheep, ditch his current buds, and kill a thousand people every issue.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't think Jason should make nice with ANYBODY.  He's turning into Mr. Congeniality.  He should stay away from the Bat-Sheep, ditch his current buds, and kill a thousand people every issue.


_And get cancelled within two months._

You can't be serious.

----------


## Dzetoun

> _And get cancelled within two months._
> 
> You can't be serious.



Don't worry, he isn't.  We really need some more labels around here.  "Satire" would be a good one.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't think Jason should make nice with ANYBODY.  He's turning into Mr. Congeniality.  He should stay away from the Bat-Sheep, ditch his current buds, and kill a thousand people every issue.


 :Stick Out Tongue:  (10 chara)

----------


## madrox83

Since his run on Wonder Woman is over, would anyone be interested in seeing Red Hood written by Azzarello.

----------


## oasis1313

Tell us why Azzarello would be a good fit--I'm not familiar with the writer.

----------


## madrox83

I think Azzarello would be a good fit based on his work in 100 Bullets. Some characters were more redeemable than others and it showed, but for the most part they walked a villainous line. His writing could showcase the whole Red Hood being heroic at times but susceptible to doing bad things and dealing out death to criminals. 

He's also quite good at seeding in long term plot threads that would payoff for readers if he had a lengthy run. Based on his 3 year Wonder Woman run I would hope whatever DC work he gets would also be for at least a year of story.

If you haven't read 100 Bullets, I highly recommend it.

----------


## Kid A

Tonally he'd be a good fit, but I don't want a psychotic Punisher-esque Jason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Tonally he'd be a good fit, but I don't want a psychotic Punisher-esque Jason.


Me neither. That ship has already sailed.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Me neither. That ship has already sailed.


And sunk.  You can still see the oil slick.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And sunk.  You can still see the oil slick.


So that's what that is?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

In all seriousness though Jason has moved on from being a psychotic killer and I'd like for DC to pick a direction for him and then stick with it. The fact that nobody knew what to do with him caused him to become a one note villain after all.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason shouldn't have to be psychotic; I'd just have him do his own thing and not go crawling back to Gotham every time Bruce whistles.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Jason shouldn't have to be psychotic; I'd just have him do his own thing and not go crawling back to Gotham every time Bruce whistles.


What's wrong with him helping Bruce out once in a while though? It's not as if he isn't "doing his own thing" the rest of the time.

----------


## oasis1313

> What's wrong with him helping Bruce out once in a while though? It's not as if he isn't "doing his own thing" the rest of the time.


If I was Jason Todd, I wouldn't spit on Bruce Wayne if he was on fire.  The Joker's life meant more to hm than Jason's, and I find that unforgivable.  He doesn't owe Bruce jack.

----------


## Godlike13

DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. And so he has basically just defaulted into Nightwing with guns. 

And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.

----------


## JasonTodd428

@ oasis1313: So the fact that Bruce quite clearly wanted to kill the Joker because he admitted to murdering Jason means nothing at all. It's just a bit of unimportant information that is of no relevance whatsoever. 




> DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. So they basically just turned him into Nightwing with guns.


I disagree with you there. At the very least DC has moved him beyond the one note, psychoic villain he was being portrayed as before the reboot. Jason was stuck in that mode for far longer then he should have been and neither him nor Bruce have ever been allowed to at least attempt to deal with their baggage or to even attempt to reconcile.  As for him being Nightwing with guns I don't see it. Jason may have a few similar traits to Dick ( what Bat kid doesn't) and he may be hanging out with some of Dick's old friends but I hardly think that makes him just "Nightwing with guns".




> And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.


I was specifically talking about comics here not othe media.

----------


## oasis1313

@ oasis1313: So the fact that Bruce quite clearly wanted to kill the Joker because he admitted to murdering Jason means nothing at all. It's just a bit of unimportant information that is of no relevance whatsoever.

Action walks and guano talks.  You are very correct in your assessment:  It IS just an unimportant information that is of no relevance whatsoever.  The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.  "Ooooh, I just hate that Joker-person so bad I'm gonna hold my breath till my face turns blue!  I'm so mad I could just SPIT!"  I'm tired of Batman wussing out on the Joker, and this with Jason tore it.  How many hundreds of people has the Joker killed AFTER Jason?  Everybody's lost count by now.  If Batman had just broken the Joker's rotten neck, he would have saved those people.  If he'd done it even earlier than that, Jason wouldn't have had to claw his way out of his own grave.  Kill the Joker like the rabid wolf he is and create a new arch-villain.

----------


## phonogram12

> And sunk.  You can still see the oil slick.


Yeah, Jason's way better off in the new 52 than pre 52.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.

Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.

Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset.   And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. And so he has basically just defaulted into Nightwing with guns. 
> 
> And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.


Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely. Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.

----------


## oasis1313

> People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.
> 
> Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.
> 
> Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset.   And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.


"Delusional", "dumb", "absurd".  My, what fancy words.  Everyone here (except you, of course) is merely a simple comic book geek, but I do appreciate the presence of a licensed psychiatrist in our midst--someone who can tell us all about our faults because of his vast medical training and expert opinions.  Of course DC will never kill off the cash cow called the Joker, but it's a WISH that I and others have every right to express.  The moderators have deleted many, many posts which have been FAR less abusive than yours.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely. Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.


Do you realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're saying that Jason is a derivative character and accusing him of just lifting aspects from other sources and then you say that the Punisher angle is the best for him (therefore lifting aspects from another character). Make your mind. 

While is true that the Venom has been cheapened as plot point of late, Jason's unique characteristics allow for a very interesting story and gives a new angle to Jason's characterization.

The All-Caste were a great source of stories and an angle with tons of potential but sadly Tynion poisoned that well with his nonsense

----------


## Dzetoun

> People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.
> 
> Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.
> 
> Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset.   And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.


Sigh.  Powerful as UTRH was as a story, it was arguably a strategic mistake for precisely the reason you point out.  It basically asks a question that has no business being asked, at least not in that way and in that context, and in so doing injects a poisonous controversy into the master BatVerse narrative.  At the least UTRH needed a second act to take the issue off the table again, a second act it never got.  

As far as Joker goes, I think DC understands they are in a corner, or at least Snyder does.  They have a character they can't kill for financial reasons, but who the rules of narrative and characterization, or just plain believability, say should have been dead long ago (and probably resurrected, but that is another tale). In terms of Jason, though, it does seeming they have been playing catchup, with the writers for years moving behind the curve of reader interpretation.  Once again, arguably one problem with UTRH is that Winick honestly didn't think he was writing the character that people read.  He has over time used words like "psychotic scoundrel," "self-absorbed killer," and the like to describe Jason, which is not how many people were reacting to the character even in 2005.

As far as characterization in _Eternal_ versus _RHATO_ versus anywhere else ... that is a long and bloody battle.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason shouldn't have to be psychotic; I'd just have him do his own thing and not go crawling back to Gotham every time Bruce whistles.


When did he came back "crawiling every time Bruce whistle?" 

Night of Owls = Jason was on the road to Gotham to deal Untitled business when he received Alfred`s emergency beacon. 

Death of The Family = Jason was with someone else when he was targetted by the Joker. 

Eternal = Jason is seen somewhere knowing about the whole business with Gordon and then gets a call from Bruce to help in that very same situation. 

I haven`t seen Jason acting like a lapdog in any single crossover appearance to date. The only time he comes directly to Gotham because Bruce asks was in Eternal and Jason pretty much shut his pie hole the moment the old man started rambling another lecture about broken Windows, despite being the one needing help. 

The other times he stayed in Gotham a bit more was in the aftermaths of these crossovers, talking with the Family because of something (like Damian`s death, Barbara`s ethical struggle, wtv). Which, storytelling wise is exactly the kind of stuff you can write Jason in because it always gives that vibe of "you cant really come back home" from him. And that`s  a powerful story tool to use if you can. 

A black sheep is not someone who turns on the family to screw themselves when they are in the sink. The balance is that Jason isn`t a looney anymore. He is his own man and a man will help when the shit hits it. Deep down that kid is still there and respects what Batman does - he just doesn`t agree with how he does it. Deep down he may still like Gotham I can assume, it just doesn`t do it for him any longer "the world is alot bigger than Gotham Barbara" (Eternal). 

Everytime the family time is over all I see is him and his buds hit the road and get back to their own stuff, be it on Earth or space. Who else do you have doing that now? If anything, compared to before, the family at large and Bruce in particular are more needy of him as a wild-card.

----------


## Aioros22

> DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. And so he has basically just defaulted into Nightwing with guns.


That`s the vaguest thing you can say on this matter and I believe, for a reason. 

He`s "basically" Nightwing with guns. Except when he isn`t, which is pretty much all the time. He doesn`t act or think like Dick. You are mistaking the inherent decency of all the Robins in working for the greater good and not going into especifics to the "why" and "how". Just in his recente appearance in RATHO he left a city under martial law because his business was done. 

Dick and Tim aren`t adventurers/mercenary types. Jason is. 

DC has been extremely smart and cautious with Jason since the reboot hit and it shows by merit of having appearances in 3 different titles, with sligthly different approaches but all similar in thematic of the character. Never before you had that type of flexibility with him. 




> And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.


Sure, as long they bring the tone of that one story, it should. 

But a videogame or an animated featured movie isn`t a monthly plataform for the character. 




> Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely.


Todd`s mythology includes _his_ already known street origin, the death of his mother and connection to Joker that _nobody else_ got, street gangs, Talia, _Al-Caste_ and the _Untitled_._ His_ connection to some Titans aren`t a thing of the New52, Jason was a member of the group in two major arcs in the 80`s. One of the Titans he end up knowing best was Roy. 

That`s far more backstory than Tim or Dick in the reboot and using elements that were set before. 




> Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.


Yeah those stories were terrible (and they were) but the Punisher angle done right....is kind of what you have. He kills and targets groups that have gone from mystical treaths (RATHO), slave trade children (Eternal) alien invasions (Action/RATHO), arm dealers (RATHO), etc. Jason and his acolites are listed as potential threats on the FBI and other government organizations. At the minimal sign of them going rogue (Future`s End) they are all on his tail. The reason they haven`t is because unlike before, Jason isn`t a (borderline) villain and his actions end up helping saving lives, which is why Batman and by default the JL vouch for him. 

That, ladies and gents, is called having a balance in character.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Do you realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're saying that Jason is a derivative character and accusing him of just lifting aspects from other sources and then you say that the Punisher angle is the best for him (therefore lifting aspects from another character). Make your mind. 
> 
> While is true that the Venom has been cheapened as plot point of late, Jason's unique characteristics allow for a very interesting story and gives a new angle to Jason's characterization.
> 
> The All-Caste were a great source of stories and an angle with tons of potential but sadly Tynion poisoned that well with his nonsense


The Batmythos didn't have a character like Punisher running around,I mean even 90's Nightwing borrowed a lot from Daredevil,the trope may be cliched but Jason still had his own unique corner in Batman's world.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> That`s the vaguest thing you can say on this matter and I believe, for a reason. 
> 
> He`s "basically" Nightwing with guns. Except when he isn`t, which is pretty much all the time. He doesn`t act or think like Dick. You are mistaking the inherent decency of all the Robins in working for the greater good and not going into especifics to the "why" and "how". Just in his recente appearance in RATHO he left a city under martial law because his business was done. 
> 
> Dick and Tim aren`t adventurers/mercenary types. Jason is. 
> 
> DC has been extremely smart and cautious with Jason since the reboot hit and it shows by merit of having appearances in 3 different titles, with sligthly different approaches but all similar in thematic of the character. Never before you had that type of flexibility with him. 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously no one can get his origin,which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,and I already acknowledged the All-Caste. Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick. No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,not even in the New-52,his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.

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## phonogram12

> People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.


I've been saying this for the longest time. DC/WB liking money will trump everything else every time. Scream it at the top of your lungs for as long as you want, but that ain't ever going to change and is (quite frankly) a complete waste of breath.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The Batmythos didn't have a character like Punisher running around,I mean even 90's Nightwing borrowed a lot from Daredevil,the trope may be cliched but Jason still had his own unique corner in Batman's world.


Problem is that you critic rings hollow when it can resumed as "I'll only accept Jason when he's aping the aspects I like"




> Obviously no one can get his origin,which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,and I already acknowledged the All-Caste. Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick. No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,not even in the New-52,his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.


And that is how it should be, Talia was just a mean to bring back Jason. Lobdell understands this and that's the reason for her only getting two appearances and some mentions under his pen. The All Caste is what is important for Jason and what it makes unique on the N52. Sadly, Tynion missed this point completely (as he did with Jason) and he didn't wrote Jason, he wrote a frankestein of a character that he used as standi-in for Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

> Obviously no one can get his origin..


Well, then it`s unique among this grooup of characters. It has been borrowed to his "brothers" in other media too, so..




> ..which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,


It hasn`t, really. They haven`t shown him stealing the tires but that was merely a small snipe of Jason`s larger issue in living in the streets. He still did. His father was still a criminal who went to jail and died somewhere since he never showed up. He took care of his mother until an illeness took her and then started stealing to survive. 

They only added layers to what was there. It`s more controversial now with the Joker, Talia and gangs mixed into it. 




> and I already acknowledged the All-Caste...


Ok, good. And the Untitled, since Jason fell in love with someone from that group when training with the Al Caste, so he`s got history there. 




> Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick.


The Outlaws aren`t the Titans. This is the least original hook to his character now but it`s not part of his origin, it`s added lore. If you can enjoy Deathstroke becoming a nemesis of Batman and Arrow despite being created to face the Titans, you shouldn`t have an issue with Talia`s connection to Jay, which started(was alllured to) before Damian was created, back when Hush was still kicking. 




> No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,.


You just referenced these characters while discussing Jason Todd.




> his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,.


His stint with the Titans led to two major storyarcs on the Titans at the time, the bigger one being saving Dick, Raven and her mother from Brother`s Blood Church and shut it down. If you`re looking for "brief" you might be thinking of Batman, Superman and some others in the same arc who barely showed up but were there to sell how big the national treath was. Those stints were the groundwork for his relationship (actual one) with Donna pre-new52 on "Countdown" and his friendship with Roy (new52). Jason`s stint was referenced on Titans after his death, when the Titans were relaunched years ago with the original team in a mini featuring Wolfman and Jimenez and again just before the reboot when Jason fought Tim in the Tower. 

If you haven`t read them, you can`t go wrong with Barreto and Gammill on art. 

By the way, some (if not "the") original appearances from Jason Todd (both pre and post Crisis) were done by Wolfman/Perez in "Teen Titans" and "Crisis". 




> not even in the New-52.


In the New52, Dick, Jason, Kory and Roy were never part of Titans. 




> his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.


"Red Hood: The lost years" and RATHO aren`t that vague. Psychologically challenging maybe?

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Nice to see this place is still active

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

What does everybody think will happen to Jason in the Convergence mini series?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What does everybody think will happen to Jason in the Convergence mini series?


Probably something that will make fans of the psychotic, Bat Family hatin' version of Jason Todd happy.  :Stick Out Tongue:   For myself it might be interesting to see Father Todd again or perhaps a version of Jason from some Earth other than the main pre-reboot Earth. Wasn't there an Earth in Countdown where Jason was Batman? That could be interesting.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> Probably something that will make fans of the psychotic, Bat Family hatin' version of Jason Todd happy.   For myself it might be interesting to see Father Todd again or perhaps a version of Jason from some Earth other than the main pre-reboot Earth. Wasn't there an Earth in Countdown where Jason was Batman? That could be interesting.


I would hate to see him written like that again.I do love him edgy but not like that.I'm really not a fan of Red Hood and the Outlaws but it has nothing to do with how Jason is written.I just don't care for the space stories and other sci stuff.I don't mind them every so often but I feel like it happens too frequently.I prefer his stories to be  a little more grounded.I'm also not a fan of him working with Bat family on a regular basis.

----------


## madrox83

I like the current version best and would honestly say it is one of the best things to come out of the New 52.

----------


## oasis1313

Current Jason is too NICE.

----------


## phonogram12

> I like the current version best and would honestly say it is one of the best things to come out of the New 52.


Certainly the best thing to happen to Jason since his resurrection.

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## oasis1313

Liked his Futures End story a lot.  It would be cool if he killed Starfire.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> Current Jason is too NICE.


How mean do you want him to be?

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## JasonTodd428

> I would hate to see him written like that again.I do love him edgy but not like that.I'm really not a fan of Red Hood and the Outlaws but it has nothing to do with how Jason is written.I just don't care for the space stories and other sci stuff.I don't mind them every so often but I feel like it happens too frequently.I prefer his stories to be  a little more grounded.I'm also not a fan of him working with Bat family on a regular basis.


I think the FE issue struck a nice balance myself. He was edgy without it being overblown and it fit with how Jason has been written thus far in the N52. I though it was a good, solid and more grounded story for him. I don't mind the space stories myself because if he is going to hang around with Starfire there will be some space adventures involved at some point or other but they have been a bit overused so maybe that aspect needs to be put aside for a bit. Maybe have some of the next few arcs deal with more street level stuff. Something where Jason can take down some ordinary criminals who are out to hurt the innocent instead of having them chase down some heavy hitter bent on world domination or destruction. Or perhaps have an issue where the team is having a bit of downtime between missions. We haven't seen much of that. As for him working with the Bat family I really don't mind that at all. I'd rather he work with them than against them and Bruce has reconciled with Jason so to have him not show up at certain times would be a step back for both characters IMHO. I don't want him to be working with them on a regular basis but there's nothing wrong with him helping them out once in a while particularly if it's happening somewhere other than his own title. 




> Current Jason is too NICE.


Define "too NICE".  :Wink:

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## Daredevil is Legend

[QUOTE=JasonTodd428;700179]I think the FE issue struck a nice balance myself. He was edgy without it being overblown and it fit with how Jason has been written thus far in the N52. I though it was a good, solid and more grounded story for him. I don't mind the space stories myself because if he is going to hang around with Starfire there will be some space adventures involved at some point or other but they have been a bit overused so maybe that aspect needs to be put aside for a bit. Maybe have some of the next few arcs deal with more street level stuff. Something where Jason can take down some ordinary criminals who are out to hurt the innocent instead of having them chase down some heavy hitter bent on world domination or destruction. Or perhaps have an issue where the team is having a bit of downtime between missions. We haven't seen much of that. As for him working with the Bat family I really don't mind that at all. I'd rather he work with them than against them and Bruce has reconciled with Jason so to have him not show up at certain times would be a step back for both characters IMHO. I don't want him to be working with them on a regular basis but there's nothing wrong with him helping them out once in a while particularly if it's happening somewhere other than his own title. 



I also rather him be with them than against them as well, but at times he seems a little too chummy with them.But i don't mind it,it's really just a nitpick .I loved how he was written in Supergirl 35 and FE.If I can get that Jason all the time i'd be happy.I really hope we don't  see the return of the crazy red head Jason in the whole Convergence story arc.

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## JasonTodd428

> I also rather him be with them than against them as well, but at times he seems a little too chummy with them.But i don't mind it,it's really just a nitpick .I loved how he was written in Supergirl 35 and FE.If I can get that Jason all the time i'd be happy.I really hope we don't  see the return of the crazy red head Jason in the whole Convergence story arc.


I wouldn't call the way Jason acts around them particularly "chummy" myself. It's not like he giving hugs here or calling them all the time like their best pals again. I'm not even sure he's thinking that way at all. He may be working with them but I don't think he's comfortable being around them really. He pretty much just does his thing and then high tails outta there when he's finished. The only person who he seems to be "chummy" with is Alfred. I still need to read that Supergirl issue. Keep forgetting about that one.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> I wouldn't call the way Jason acts around them particularly "chummy" myself. It's not like he giving hugs here or calling them all the time like their best pals again. I'm not even sure he's thinking that way at all. He may be working with them but I don't think he's comfortable being around them really. He pretty much just does his thing and then high tails outta there when he's finished. The only person who he seems to be "chummy" with is Alfred. I still need to read that Supergirl issue. Keep forgetting about that one.


I guess I get a different feel than you do.I could've have sworn I seen him in tears in a flashback as Wingman,and I also wasn't feeling that hug scene in Red Hood and the Outlaws 18.That's what I meant by chummy, but i'm pretty sure most people will just accuse me of not wanting Jason to be loved but that's not the case.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

You do realize that the whole point of issue 18 was to finally move both Bruce and Jason from their issues, right?

The scene with Wingman was an hallucination signaling Jason's regret at how things turned out.

And again, out of 35 issues you're getting hung on ONE.

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## JasonTodd428

> I guess I get a different feel than you do.I could've have sworn I seen him in tears in a flashback as Wingman,and I also wasn't feeling that hug scene in Red Hood and the Outlaws 18.That's what I meant by chummy, but i'm pretty sure most people will just accuse me of not wanting Jason to be loved but that's not the case.


It would seem so. To me Jason being "chummy" with the others would mean that Jason's hanging around all the time and I don't really see that happening given how much he wants to stay away from Gotham. That doesn't mean the he won't come there if he feels its warranted though since he clearly does. No, I didn't see either of those scenes as Jason being particularly "chummy" The first one was not and actual flashback but something Jason saw in his own mind during the time he was in an induced coma. He's not actually physically crying in that scene though he may be doing so emotionally there. As for the hug in #18 he'd been through both an emotional and physical ordeal in the aftermath of DotF and I'd think anyone in that position would want a little comfort, even (or maybe most especially) someone like Jason. It was an instinctual reaction more than anything else and clearly both are indications that on some level he wants to be accepted by Bruce even if he will never be Bruce's bestie again. The thing is he is not acting all buddy buddy with the others even in the face of that acceptance. He comes in and helps out when he feels the need but he still leaves afterward as seen in _Eternal_ and I expect that he will do the same after they get back from rescuing Damian as well. He's still a bit of a loner when it comes to them.

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## Daredevil is Legend

> It would seem so. To me Jason being "chummy" with the others would mean that Jason's hanging around all the time and I don't really see that happening given how much he wants to stay away from Gotham. That doesn't mean the he won't come there if he feels its warranted though since he clearly does. No, I didn't see either of those scenes as Jason being particularly "chummy" The first one was not and actual flashback but something Jason saw in his own mind during the time he was in an induced coma. He's not actually physically crying in that scene though he may be doing so emotionally there. As for the hug in #18 he'd been through both an emotional and physical ordeal in the aftermath of DotF and I'd think anyone in that position would want a little comfort, even (or maybe most especially) someone like Jason. It was an instinctual reaction more than anything else and clearly both are indications that on some level he wants to be accepted by Bruce even if he will never be Bruce's bestie again. The thing is he is not acting all buddy buddy with the others even in the face of that acceptance. He comes in and helps out when he feels the need but he still leaves afterward as seen in _Eternal_ and I expect that he will do the same after they get back from rescuing Damian as well. He's still a bit of a loner when it comes to them.


I never said he didn't have reasons for it.I just didn't like seeing it,and it does appear that the times he is around them he gets along just fine with them.He gets along with Tim fine,I believe if i'm not mistaken he  tried to have a pep talk with Damian after Death of the Family,he showed a romantic interest in Babs.Maybe chummy isn't the right word but i'm pretty sure you're smart enough to get where I was going with it.You seem like a smart person.It isn't a huge issue with me though,just an observation.

----------


## oasis1313

> How mean do you want him to be?


Mean as a snake.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Anybody like the last issue of RHATO?

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## Aioros22

> Mean as a snake.


Jason Todd, the Slyterin of the Bat
Mean as a snake
speaks the language of terror 
but deep down lies a heart of a rebelious hero.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Anybody like the last issue of RHATO?


I  really liked the writing but found some odd points with the art.

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## oasis1313

> Jason Todd, the Slyterin of the Bat
> Mean as a snake
> speaks the language of terror 
> but deep down lies a heart of a rebelious hero.


I like it!

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## phonogram12

> Mean as a snake.


If you mean anything even remotely resembling any of his pre-52 portrayals, no thanks.

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## oasis1313

I like Winick's Jason.  He was great in those issues of Batman & Robin, needling Dickbats just to annoy him.

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## Tony Stark

> I like Winick's Jason.  He was great in those issues of Batman & Robin, needling Dickbats just to annoy him.


I know! I love those issues. I LOVED how Winnick wrote Jason. I still think he did the best, but I loving Lobdell.

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## Aioros22

The problem with Jason`s Winnick wasn`t that he was mean, it was that he was a fuse away of being a villain in most stories. That stucks him in one role only and is a role that doesn`t benefit him one bit because they`ll never allow him to clean up who he should be cleaning up. 

Ribbing his brothers is also a bit attention seeking of him. I prefer for he to still be mean when he should (which he still is) and have most come to him because they need him. When that happens or he simply shows up, you know it`s a bigger deal.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah, Winick's Jason was a one-trick pony (and a badly written one to boot). I was seriously dissapointed at Lost Days since it was literally the same story for five issues on a row with a hastily add-on at the end to tie with Hush. Its has good scenes but in general is very, VERY mediocre.

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## oasis1313

Next to Winnick, Lobdell writes the best Jason.  Totally Kick-Ass.  Jason is different from Dick, Tim, and Damian because, unlike them, he has no limits.

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## CapeandCowl

> Next to Winnick, Lobdell writes the best Jason.  Totally Kick-Ass.  Jason is different from Dick, Tim, and Damian because, unlike them, he has no limits.


Have to say that I do not like the idea of Jason being an anti-hero in much of what has been written since his return as Red Hood. I dare say I can buy the movie adaptation easier to swallow with Jason getting revenge on the Joker for all those years ago, and neither apparently surviving. But thats just me.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Next to Winnick, Lobdell writes the best Jason.  Totally Kick-Ass.  Jason is different from Dick, Tim, and Damian because, unlike them, he has no limits.


Winnick only wrote a good Jason on Under the Red Hood (and even then, the movie was miles better than the original arc). He just never seemed to know what to do with him after that arc. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Winnick never intended Jason's return to be permanent.

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## Tony Stark

> Winnick only wrote a good Jason on Under the Red Hood (and even then, the movie was miles better than the original arc). He just never seemed to know what to do with him after that arc. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Winnick never intended Jason's return to be permanent.


I gotta disagree as I loved lost days and really enjoyed the Batman and Robin arc he wrote with Jason. Didn't see him as a one trick pony. The really bad story was when he tried to take Nightwings place and they fought brothers who were bugs. Also didn't like how Nicieaza wrote him in Robin and Fabian is one of my all time favorite writers. We might not agree and have different opinions on him and that's cool, but we are all here because we love the character and that's really cool.

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## oasis1313

I think Frank Miller could write a good Jason.

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## Dzetoun

> Winnick only wrote a good Jason on Under the Red Hood (and even then, the movie was miles better than the original arc). He just never seemed to know what to do with him after that arc. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Winnick never intended Jason's return to be permanent.


I don't know that Winnick really had much in the way of intentions after _Under the Red Hood_.  I really don't think he expected people to react to Jason the way that they did.  In his comments it seems he intended Jason to be seen as a self-absorbed psychopath and was taken aback by the character's popularity.  In part, I think that's because he really didn't know that much about Jason, but had casually bought into the interpretation put forth over the previous fifteen years, an interpretation largely crafted to shift blame away from Bruce for letting Jason die in the first place.  

Of course, it didn't help that DC editorial seized on Jason as a villain and a murderous replacement for Nightwing.  And then, of course, when plans for _Infinite Crisis_ changed Jason was left adrift and Winnick had a character whose long-term future he appears to have never really considered.  He does deserve kudos however, as you say, for learning from the experience of the comic and correcting many of the problems with UTRH in the movie.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

If I'm remembering correctly, DC did intended to have Jason replace Dick as Nightwing (back then when Dick was meant to die during _Infinite Crisis_) Rumor has it that Bruce Jones was brought under the idea of writing Jason as Nightwing, but as everyone knows, Dick was spared and suddenly Jones had to scrap all of his plans and half-assing a reason to have Dick back into the Nigthwing suit and write off Jason from the book.

Then it came Countdown where they also tried to have Jason take the Red Robin persona and become a full fledged anti-hero but their plans were derailed by Morrison giving Damian the Robin mantle. So Jason was sacrificed to give Tim an identity (if you go back, you'll see how they implied about Jason being Red Robin and teaming up with Tim in the upcoming Red Robin series). That was a damn shame since despite all of Countdown faults, Jason's character arc was real solid.

After that fiasco editorial seemed to agree with Morrison and Daniels and choose to make Jason an irredeemable villian and Dick's nemesis, luckily, the movie success made them reconsider it, then the reboot came and Jason was finally able to get a direction and a place in the DCU.

----------


## Dzetoun

I suspect they were already reconsidering by the time the movie's success became evident in 2010.  You can even see some of the changes made in the movie as evidence of that reconsideration.  I am sure the movie helped, but I think Morrison had probably already sketched out his Wingman subplot, perhaps based on the aborted Red Robin direction, as you say.  Unfortunately, as with the rest of _Batman Incorporated_, the relationship of that arc to the main continuity was problematic.  Really, by 2010 it had become pretty clear that they had to do something, and fan reaction had already made an all-out villain, or even antagonist, turn unworkable.

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## oasis1313

I'd like to see Scarlett/Sasha back.  She makes a perfect sidekick for Jason.

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## JasonTodd428

> I'd like to see Scarlett/Sasha back.  She makes a perfect sidekick for Jason.


I miss Sasha myself. Up until that point Jason had been working alone and I was actually glad to see him partnering up with someone else for a change. She was an interesting character in her own right and someone that Jason could related to because she was broken like he was. I've always wondered what would have happened to the two if the reboot hadn't occurred. Would having a partner have given him some insight into Bruce's actions regarding him? Would his having left Gotham, as it appeared he and Scarlett were going to, help him to come to terms with his issues so that he could move forward in his life without being encumbered by them? Could he and Sasha have healed from their broken pasts? Like I said awhile back, I've always wondered if giving Jason a partner was the first step in dealing with all the issues that plagued the character since his return.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I believe that giving Jason a sidekick is a huge mistake, it only makes more obvious his setbacks regarding Bruce while at the same time it makes him dwell into his shadow even more (in fact, that was what Morrison did with Sasha and once his story  was over he writed her off). What Jason needs are friends.

Keeping him isolated only makes him static, every successful character needs some one to bounce ideas off or simlpy hang out with (even utter dicks like Constantine have friends).

----------


## K. Jones

I like Sasha as an acquaintance, though the "dynamic duo" angle he was playing with was pretty specific to that story. But I like Jason having friends to bounce off of, and sort of like the premise that if he's passing through Moscow, she might provide him a safehouse.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I believe that giving Jason a sidekick is a huge mistake, it only makes more obvious his setbacks regarding Bruce while at the same time it makes him dwell into his shadow even more (in fact, that was what Morrison did with Sasha and once his story  was over he writed her off). What Jason needs are friends.
> 
> Keeping him isolated only makes him static, every successful character needs some one to bounce ideas off or simlpy hang out with (even utter dicks like Constantine have friends).


I believe that over time Sasha could have turned into a friend though and that's what I was driving at there. I remember thinking at the time that maybe they were setting up a new direction for him; perhaps even a direction that would take him out of Gotham and away from Batman completely for a while. One that would allow for him to get his head on straight and would allow a writer to explore other avenues for the character. I think that the Outlaws book we have now could be the N52 equivalent of that possible aborted direction. It's just a theory of course and not fact by any stretch but I hardly think this title sprang up suddenly. I think there was a germ of an idea for it already in play.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I don't care to remember much of anything Morrison did with Jason including Sasha.She wasn't around long enough for me to care about her.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I gotta disagree as I loved lost days and really enjoyed the Batman and Robin arc he wrote with Jason. Didn't see him as a one trick pony. The really bad story was when he tried to take Nightwings place and they fought brothers who were bugs. Also didn't like how Nicieaza wrote him in Robin and Fabian is one of my all time favorite writers. We might not agree and have different opinions on him and that's cool, but we are all here because we love the character and that's really cool.


I also like the way Winick wrote him in Outsiders and Green Arrow.Lost Days was gold imo.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I also like the way Winick wrote him in Outsiders and Green Arrow.Lost Days was gold imo.


Same here. Anytime Winnick wrote him I loved it.

----------


## oasis1313

Winnick and Lobdell are the only writers who do Jason right.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Didio's has said that Convergence will give some degree of closure to the pre N52 DCU. Now I'm really curious about that Batman & Robin issue.

Edit: Oh, and I reviewed RHATO 36

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VIIBb6iSyE4

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Winnick and Lobdell are the only writers who do Jason right.


I completely agree

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Didio's has said that Convergence will give some degree of closure to the pre N52 DCU. Now I'm really curious about that Batman & Robin issue.
> 
> Edit: Oh, and I reviewed RHATO 36
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VIIBb6iSyE4


So I guess the universes aren't merging.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Winnick and Lobdell are the only writers who do Jason right.


I'm right there with you!

----------


## Tony Stark

> Didio's has said that Convergence will give some degree of closure to the pre N52 DCU. Now I'm really curious about that Batman & Robin issue.
> 
> Edit: Oh, and I reviewed RHATO 36
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VIIBb6iSyE4


Really enjoyed your review. Also dug the music suggestion. Great stuff.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So I guess the universes aren't merging.


I would guess that a flat out merger is not in the cards however since Convergence is, among other things, an event that is supposedly spinning out of _World's End_ and _Future's End_ and is supposedly feeding into whatever the event is after it could be that we might see small retcons across the DCnU as a whole. Bleeding Cool has said that there are major shake-ups coming after Convergence. 




> Didio's has said that Convergence will give some degree of closure to the pre N52 DCU. Now I'm really curious about that Batman & Robin issue.
> 
> Edit: Oh, and I reviewed RHATO 36
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VIIBb6iSyE4


Nice review.

----------


## Aioros22

> Didio's has said that Convergence will give some degree of closure to the pre N52 DCU. Now I'm really curious about that Batman & Robin issue.
> 
> Edit: Oh, and I reviewed RHATO 36
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VIIBb6iSyE4


We agree on a good deal of things. Not sure whether approaching Roy as more the TV persona is bad for the team, I don`t think it will be, but I do think if they go that road the dinamic will slightly change because Roy was the humor catalist. Consistancy will play a huge part in that character definition. 

We certainly don`t see eye to eye on Tynon`s run. It certainly wasn`t as good in almost any sense as Lodbell, and the plot hanging on whether Jason played the memories thing or not was unecessary,_ but_ it had some touches I like, from the Flashbacks to expanding Jason`s world with the League of Asassins and Talia`s/Ras connection. Yeah, he beat Shiva in one page, but I`ll take it as the hype moment any cool/good character got. I don`t mind. 

In short, the plot had potential and could have used some polished second hand, but alas.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

To be honest, the whole thing with the League was one of my major gripes with Tynion. Not only was unnecessary due the all caste, it also made Jason even more of a copycat and put him squarely under Bruce's shadow (and any other villian related to the league) but the worst thing were the flashbacks where Jason went from determined, stubborn and willful people able to stand for his own principles to a crying mess that needed to be told what to do and believe.

----------


## oasis1313

DC not letting Jason kick all the azz he deserves.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Okay, this is driving me nuts.

Is the Jason depicted on Eternal what everyone wants? Because frankly, is exactly everything people has accused Lobdell's to be. He's all buddy buddy with all the bat family, is enterily at Bruce's disposition, is a poor Grayson's stand in, any sort of personality has been replaced by your run-of -the-mill snarkiness (and all the teasing with Barbara really makes me cringe).

----------


## Godlike13

No, the Eternal's RH is no better. But it goes hand in hand. This is what happens when u mellow him out and put the character on the road Lobdell did.

----------


## M L A

I haven't really liked him in Eternal. He's just... there. Making the occasional snarky comment or whatever, which is what some other characters end up doing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No,_ the Eternal's RH is no better_. But it goes hand in hand. This is what happens when u mellow him out and put the character on the road Lobdell did.


The reaction on sites like tumblr (or In eternal's thread here) says different but still, Eternal is blatantly ignoring everything Jason has done on the N52 and instead going for the non sensical characterization that panders to certain faction of the fanbase. Lobdell's road is one where Jason is finally his own man, with relationships beyond the Batman family and with a clear purpose.

----------


## oasis1313

> Okay, this is driving me nuts.
> 
> Is the Jason depicted on Eternal what everyone wants? Because frankly, is exactly everything people has accused Lobdell's to be. He's all buddy buddy with all the bat family, is enterily at Bruce's disposition, is a poor Grayson's stand in, any sort of personality has been replaced by your run-of -the-mill snarkiness (and all the teasing with Barbara really makes me cringe).


My opinion, too.  I hate it.  Jason should despise them all for being wusses.

----------


## Aioros22

> Okay, this is driving me nuts.
> 
> Is the Jason depicted on Eternal what everyone wants? Because frankly, is exactly everything people has accused Lobdell's to be. He's all buddy buddy with all the bat family, is enterily at Bruce's disposition, is a poor Grayson's stand in, any sort of personality has been replaced by your run-of -the-mill snarkiness (and all the teasing with Barbara really makes me cringe).


So, so. I much prefer Loedbell`s take, or Pak`s, obviously. 

I don`t dislike some of the characterization, thought. It`s actually taking in consideration that Bruce and Jason in the New52, in RATHO made peace. Sure, Bruce acted like an idiot after, but you won`t have a writer making Bruce aknowledged that kind of stuff normally. But as far as entering Wayne Manor? Hell, why wouldn`t he be able to? And why (despite acting like an old fart) would Bruce or Alfred? They may not like how he achieves the greather good, but there is mutual respect. RATHO had Alfred mention that no mather what, as far as he was concerned, the Manor always had a place for him if he wished to.

This bigger compromise comes from his character being easier to mold in different stories now. You gotta take the "good" and "bad". 




> My opinion, too.  I hate it.  Jason should despise them all for being wusses.


That`s badass and manly.

----------


## deadboy80

I love lodell's J.T.. Much better than the previous incarnation. He is just a badass character. I like how he still has his ties to Gotham and the Bat-family, yet has the mystic stuff to set him apart. its great stuff.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So, so. I much prefer Loedbell`s take, or Pak`s, obviously. 
> 
> I don`t dislike some of the characterization, thought. It`s actually taking in consideration that Bruce and Jason in the New52, in RATHO made peace. Sure, Bruce acted like an idiot after, but you won`t have a writer making Bruce aknowledged that kind of stuff normally. But as far as entering Wayne Manor? Hell, why wouldn`t he be able to? And why (despite acting like an old fart) would Bruce or Alfred? They may not like how he achieves the greather good, but there is mutual respect. RATHO had Alfred mention that no mather what, as far as he was concerned, the Manor always had a place for him if he wished to.
> 
> This bigger compromise comes from his character being easier to mold in different stories now. You gotta take the "good" and "bad". 
> 
> 
> That`s badass and manly.


My biggest issue is that Jason hasn't done anything of note outside of the terrible shipping with Barbara and acting like a Grayson stand-in. There's none of the edge and determination that characterize him on Eternal. He's just a little soldier following Batman's every command.

DC has revealed the March theme and I'm sorely dissapointed that RHATO didn't get one. It would've been perfect. At least Jason shows on one cover

http://i.imgur.com/fTntgtf.jpg

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> No, the Eternal's RH is no better. But it goes hand in hand. This is what happens when u mellow him out and put the character on the road Lobdell did.


I agree.That's why I don't want him around the Bat Family for too long.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> My opinion, too.  I hate it.  Jason should despise them all for being wusses.


Agreed again.Hopefully Dick comes back soon so they can leave Jason out of this crap.

----------


## phonogram12

> That`s badass and manly.


I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but either way it's hilarious.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And RHATO keeps suriviving!

I don't excpect for Roy and Kori to stick around after Convergence though.

----------


## oasis1313

> And RHATO keeps suriviving!
> 
> I don't excpect for Roy and Kori to stick around after Convergence though.


Please let it be true!

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, i saw that in the slew of coming cancellations RHatO wasn't one of them. Thats not really a good thing though. I don't know why they keep dragging it out and are letting it just linger. Rather than ending it and trying something else.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason would do fine without Roy and Kory dragging him down.

----------


## phonogram12

As long as they keep the character development they started with Scott Lobdell's first run and don't revert him back to his pre-52 characterization or some super lame Punisher wannabe Jason should be fine.

----------


## nepenthes

All of Jason's post-return incarnations have been as different as the last. Judd Winick, Grant Morrison, Tony Daniel, Scott Lobdell..he's all over the place. Whatever he is post-Convergence I'm suspect (hope) he'll be largely unrecognisable apart from name. It's part of his thing now.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Why people is thinking there will be any difference on Jason's characterization?

I don't think Lobdell will go anywhere and chances are that we will get a new team of Outlaws (my bet is on Crux and Rose)

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Okay, this is driving me nuts.
> 
> Is the Jason depicted on Eternal what everyone wants? Because frankly, is exactly everything people has accused Lobdell's to be. He's all buddy buddy with all the bat family, is enterily at Bruce's disposition, is a poor Grayson's stand in, any sort of personality has been replaced by your run-of -the-mill snarkiness (and all the teasing with Barbara really makes me cringe).


I agree completely, but not just his Eternal depiction, his depiction in B&R too. I hate that he's such a little loyal soldier now for Bruce, as if he really owes the man that much. He can work with the Batfam, but I want to see some friction; like him killing regardless of what anyone in the Batfam says, or taking a more renegade/morally ambiguous approach to certain missions. I don't get why Jason cares about their opinion so much, now.

Anyways, I'm kinda pissed RHATO wasn't on the cancelled list as well. Very much hoping that, post-Convergence, we get a more grounded solo Jason that's something of a mix of Hawkeye/Scarlet Spider (Kaine)/Superior Foes, but with a (obviously) much darker, and more black humor tone. I think that would be a win-win for everybody. RHATO has been dragging its feet lately, and we now have Lobo, which does what RHATO is doing (but with much better art). DC needs to put Roy and Kori on the JLU book, and give Jason some much needed breathing room. 

If they want him to still interact with others, then give him a sidekick in the form of a Nu52 Cassandra Cain (thus introducing David Cain as a new elite rogue for Jason), or Mia. Maybe a story revolving a newly revived Talia; like her resurrection was messed up and now she has amnesia (like Jason did, but not as severe), and now he has to save her from Ra's. Just give this guy a more grounded book, where he has around 90-95% of the limelight.

Seriously, I'm tired of all this space, GotG stuff he's been doing.

----------


## Badou

I say they should scrap the team and just launch a Red Hood solo. It really feels like some writers don't know what to do with the character or know how to write him when they try to use him. So a strong solo would help give his character a solid direction and characterization. I think they took the Outlaws concept and him with Roy and Starfire as far as they could. Better to end the series while some people still look on it fondly rather than let it linger around too long, imo. I'm sure that someone had to have pitched a Red Hood solo when DC asked its creators for new and fresh titles. 

Roy should probably be moved over to Green Arrow or a possible Green Arrow team book (I don't think GA should be in JLU), and Starfire should be put in a space focused book by herself. Maybe a JLU or a new Green Lantern title that they could launch.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

I'd like to see Jason work with Bluebird for awhile, given how much they have in common. Also, the banter between them would/could be fun (tho not as fun as an impatient Jason trying to teach Cassandra English, or sarcasm lol).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'd like to see Jason work with Bluebird for awhile, given how much they have in common. Also, the banter between them would/could be fun (tho not as fun as an impatient Jason trying to teach Cassandra English, or sarcasm lol).


God no. Harper is one of the worst things to have been added to the Batman mythos.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I say they should scrap the team and just launch a Red Hood solo. It really feels like some writers don't know what to do with the character or know how to write him when they try to use him. So a strong solo would help give his character a solid direction and characterization. I think they took the Outlaws concept and him with Roy and Starfire as far as they could. Better to end the series while some people still look on it fondly rather than let it linger around too long, imo. I'm sure that someone had to have pitched a Red Hood solo when DC asked its creators for new and fresh titles. 
> 
> Roy should probably be moved over to Green Arrow or a possible Green Arrow team book (I don't think GA should be in JLU), and Starfire should be put in a space focused book by herself. Maybe a JLU or a new Green Lantern title that they could launch.


Yeah, I think that Roy should go back to Ollie; them patching up that relationship has been sitting on the table for awhile now. Kori, I think should either join the Lobo book, or the JLU book; I don't see what else to do with her, and there's no way she could hold a solo right now. 

Jason in a solo is a must, but him having a sidekick in Cassandra/Bluebird, or a recurring companion in Talia, could only help. Just as long as he's the main guy 90% of the time, and the book stays grounded.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> God no. Harper is one of the worst things to have been added to the Batman mythos.


Why don't you like Harper? She's been okay for the most part, and isn't forced. Tho her costume, has to go, and I'd rather her in an Oracle-that-can-defend-herself-at-times role. She's not as ideal as Cassandra, Mia, or Talia, but she'd be okay; probably best suited for a temporary, 1-3 issue arc tho.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason in a solo is a must, but him having a sidekick in Cassandra/Bluebird, or a recurring companion in Talia, could only help. Just as long as he's the main guy 90% of the time, and the book stays grounded.


You do realize that giving Jason a sidekick or keeping the book grounded will only make him redundant and stagnant, right?

Jason being the one member on the bat family to actually have experience dealing with spacial threats gave him his very own corner within the Batman Mythos, plus, you're talking like the book has been all about space stories when out of the 36 issues published only 8 have been space stories. Also, Jason has been the protagonist for like 90% of the series (again, only having a backseat on those eight issues).

Finally, why retread stories when you could give him an entirely new support cast? Explore that plot point with his family, let's see if he actually has a little sister/brother.

Harper is redundant, makes look Bruce like a maniac that will accept any kid regardless the consequences and is a wish fullfillment/fan pandering character that doesn't has any depth.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> You do realize that giving Jason a sidekick or keeping the book grounded will only make him redundant and stagnant, right?
> 
> Jason being the one member on the bat family to actually have experience dealing with spacial threats gave him his very own corner within the Batman Mythos, plus, you're talking like the book has been all about space stories when out of the 36 issues published only 8 have been space stories. Also, Jason has been the protagonist for like 90% of the series (again, only having a backseat on those eight issues).
> 
> Finally, why retread stories when you could give him an entirely new support cast? Explore that plot point with his family, let's see if he actually has a little sister/brother.
> 
> Harper is redundant, makes look Bruce like a maniac that will accept any kid regardless the consequences and is a wish fullfillment/fan pandering character that doesn't has any depth.


Okay, I may have embellished a bit, but you act like it's not stagnant and redundant now. It's time for change in direction for all these characters, but most importantly Jason. 

What do you mean "why retread stories?"? Cassandra has yet to be introduced, and, as far I know, never had any kind relationship with Jason, pre-Nu52. This is new stuff, and can establish a Nu52 David Cain as a new, and elite, rogue for Jason. Ra's is already an established rogue for Jason, so having him try to save a resurrected Talia from her father's manipulation expands that rivalry further, and is a sort of full circle for Jason, in terms of him doing for her what she did for him (he did play a hand in her defeat, and was on the winning side which resulted in her death, in the end). Jason can have a cast of original rogues, besides David, Crux and Ra's, but adding Talia to his recurring cast is obvious, and Cassandra is an opportunity to introduce her with a twist. Those should be his main Batfam connections, besides the usual, but still unique to him, IMO.

Harper only has no depth because she's been severely underutilized to prop up Bruce as exactly what you said. She should be partnered up with a Babs, or a Jason, to be allowed to flesh out away from the dominating shadow that is Batman. Really, she shouldn't have fallen within the fold of the Batfam so quickly; Eternal should've had issues with her, and her bro, simply trying to survive in that hell (same for Forever Evil). She, and her bro, could've been adopted by Bruce, and she could've been to Damian what they tried to have Carrie be. From there she goes to being the new Oracle. She's just been used incorrectly, or just plain not used enough.

----------


## AJpyro

Can i have a concrete place for where and who this harper is? More supporting cast sounds neat for Jason and heck if no one's using her, why not?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Jason will still be the only member of the Batfam, other than Bruce, with experience in space, but that's irrelevant. 

Jason needs a solo title, with different tone and direction, for at least 1-3 years. Him mentoring/raising the troubled Cassandra puts him in a similar role that Bruce was in when he took Jason, and Damian (minus the father-son bit, obviously) in, and could add a new dimension to his character. Same with him trying to rehabilitate a villain in Talia. Then there's new stuff they could have him do as well. Hell, he could have another space arc, but at least it be him facing that nonsense in a solo which means a different kind of story can be told.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Can i have a concrete place for where and who this harper is? More supporting cast sounds neat for Jason and heck if no one's using her, why not?


It's hard to give you the issues, because she randomly, and briefly, pops up throughout the various Batman books, but only to prop Batman up for the most part. As a result, she's yet to really be fleshed out as a character, and it doesn't help that she's promoted into the Batfam really quickly, just cuz (at least that's what I got from Bruce's interactions with her) and still has yet to be given any serious attention/focus to expand on her character. Right now, she amounts to be being a mix of Jason (horrible parents, practically orphaned, and has to live in Park Row) and Tim (is a genius), that happens to be a Batman fangirl. 

As I said in an earlier post, she's been misused/underutilized.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Why people is thinking there will be any difference on Jason's characterization?
> 
> I don't think Lobdell will go anywhere and chances are that we will get a new team of Outlaws (my bet is on Crux and Rose)


crux is a racist monster

----------


## phonogram12

Actually, I don't mind the Bluebird idea. She would keep him grounded the same way Roy and Kori has, keeping him from reverting back to his whiny pre-52/Punisher wannabe characterization.

For the record, I don't mind the idea of Jason killing. It sets him apart from the rest of the Bat-Fam. I just vehemently dislike the idea of him actively going out and seeking people to kill. One instance where I thought it was well done was when he had defeated that heavy set female crime lord and she had literally told him that she would not stop hounding him until the day she died. Jason accepted and respected that that was her choice and went ahead and pulled the trigger to the gun he had to her head. I much prefer the idea that Jason's a killer with honor than simply another unbalanced psycho who thinks he's a badazz.

----------


## Kalethas31

in Eternal   Bluebird is close to Tim, I think see  in the Titans

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I just reviewed RHAtO 37

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....9#.VK4ln9IkrVw

----------


## Aioros22

> I agree completely, but not just his Eternal depiction, his depiction in B&R too. I hate that he's such a little loyal soldier now for Bruce, as if he really owes the man that much. He can work with the Batfam, but I want to see some friction; like him killing regardless of what anyone in the Batfam says, or taking a more renegade/morally ambiguous approach to certain missions. I don't get why Jason cares about their opinion so much, now.


I can understand prefering the type of RATHO writting in the character as opposed to Eternal where they make a bigger compromise in comparision. I do as well. But can anyone point me out where he`s been a "little loyal soldier" as if hinting that Jason just do whatever whey want while shutting up? As if he`s castrated or something?

Because as far as I recall, Jason comes into Eternal shutting Bruce`s balloney argument about entering the Manor when he was the one being called in to help, and he does so again before they head to Apokolips. The one thing he stresses out is the classic "Bruce is full of shit" everytime the man washes in the ol` thrust garbage another time. Jason and Bruce know each other way too well to fully give in either position. 

You already had them burying the hatch only to one of them take one step back again, out of grief. That`s likely the most they are willing to go at this point. 

I love the friction between members (keep it clean) but in some things Jay should be more mature now. Damian is one of those things. He shouldn`t keep from helping just because he wasn`t avenged the same way. It makes him a better man that he does, instead of refusing out of grief or hatred. 

Now, sure, let him kill whoever is despendable to the story, but they already do, generally speaking. 




> All of Jason's post-return incarnations have been as different as the last. Judd Winick, Grant Morrison, Tony Daniel, Scott Lobdell..he's all over the place. Whatever he is post-Convergence I'm suspect (hope) he'll be largely unrecognisable apart from name. It's part of his thing now.


His post 52 reboot has been pretty consistant thus far. To me, chances are slim that they would go down the same path. Pre reboot Jason had the misfortune of having one great start in UDRH and nothing else close of the same note in terms of portraial. Therefore every writer pulled a whole new direction. The result= different versions of Jason. 

Currently, let it be Eternal, RATHO, Action Comics, Supergirl, B&R, wathever, while some qualities of the person are pushed more than others depending the story, it`s the *same man*. Clearly so.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason is right:  Bruce IS full of shit.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Jason is right:  Bruce IS full of shit.


Bingo!!!!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VMCd00eG91Y

My review for the annual.

----------


## napolid

> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VMCd00eG91Y
> 
> My review for the annual.


I don't mean to be that guy, but you should give a rating for your reviews. That way we can submit you to comic book roundup.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't mean to be that guy, but you should give a rating for your reviews. That way we can submit you to comic book roundup.


That would be interesting but I'm just a colaborator on that site and it doesn't use a rating system.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VMCd00eG91Y
> 
> My review for the annual.


Nice review.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/in...g/1100-151184/

----------


## oasis1313

This interview says "his two sons".  So Damian is biological and Jason adopted.  Dick and Tim were never adopted?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Interesting interview though I'm not entirely sure that I'm looking forward to seeing this version of Jason again.

----------


## Tony Stark

> http://www.comicvine.com/articles/in...g/1100-151184/


That's awesome! I'm really hyped for this mini series!

----------


## JBatmanFan05

The Max Allan Collins collection of Jason stories is the most exciting news for me lately.  I hope they collect the Starlin stuff.  

I liked pre-Crisis Jason, at least his stories, so I hope more of those get collected.  More Conway or Moench basically.  When he dressed up in Dick's costume and helped Batman take out Joker in Guatemala.  His first pre-Crisis outing against Crazy Quilt.

----------


## K. Jones

> This interview says "his two sons".  So Damian is biological and Jason adopted.  Dick and Tim were never adopted?


Well, Dick was just in his custody, but he did adopt Tim and Cassandra. Of course, Cass is a daughter not a son, and Tim became an emancipated minor shortly after Bruce made the show of good will and adopted him, so technically Damian Wayne and "Presumed Deceased by the Public" Jason Todd are the only two official on-paper Sons of Batman.

That said, I get the impression they're just only referring to the two Robins involved in this storyline because Dick's off in Nightwing/Oracle and Tim's over in Batgirl.

Sidenote: I love the hybrid Frank Quitely costume. I liked the silly pillbox spandex outfit from Morrison's story - for that story. It's a great design that truly conveys three things; 1. In this story he's an Anti-Batman, specifically a perfect nemesis for Dick. 2. He's a fusion of "Batman" and "The Red Hood", a son of two fathers, sort of. 3. In a lot of ways Jason is a late-80s/early-90s cliche of a character and that can be conveyed through a hyper-90s almost Image take on a superhero costume, and a Punisher skull on the chest (one could imagine him drawn by Todd McFarlane or something)

Actually four things! Because it's also a pure homage to Red Mask from Animal Man, and a bit of the masque of the red death themes.

But I was really stoked when Winick (even though the art quality dipped) did the hybrid where he mixed it with the previous "Under the Hood" look. It's a surprisingly solid design, a sort of "best of both worlds" look, and manages to carry and convey all the same themes and design elements and symbolism while representing a bit of sea change or growth.

So basically what I'm saying is I'm really excited to see that costume in action by my two favorite artists in DC history.

----------


## jules

> Well, Dick was just in his custody, but he did adopt Tim and Cassandra. Of course, Cass is a daughter not a son, and Tim became an emancipated minor shortly after Bruce made the show of good will and adopted him, so technically Damian Wayne and "Presumed Deceased by the Public" Jason Todd are the only two official on-paper Sons of Batman.
> 
> That said, I get the impression they're just only referring to the two Robins involved in this storyline because Dick's off in Nightwing/Oracle and Tim's over in Batgirl.


He officially adopted Dick as well, though not until comparatively late, when he was already an adult and had moved out and was living in Bludhaven. It happened in Gotham Knights, with the offer being made in #17, and the two of them going to file the papers in #21. More a symbolic gesture than a practical one, made because he knew it would mean something to Dick. Though I guess being made son and heir to a billionaire _is_ actually something fairly substantial, even without the unspoken cape and cowl that goes with it.

The wording of the "two sons" reference gave me much the same impression; that it was the two sons who were present in the comic, without either confirming or denying any other adoptions he might have undertaken.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The way Marz talks about "the sons of Batman" makes me think that this story will pass the page on Bruce and Jason issues, bringing their relationship closer to the N52 version.

Awesome news if that is the case since it means DC has settled on a direction for Jason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The way Marz talks about "the sons of Batman" makes me think that this story will pass the page on Bruce and Jason issues, bringing their relationship closer to the N52 version.
> 
> Awesome news if that is the case since it means DC has settled on a direction for Jason.


I'd be all for some sort of closure there myself since I think it may have eventually happened at some point anyway even if the reboot hadn't happened but still seeing him in that particular costume brings to mind how he was treated just prior to be reboot, which I loathed.

----------


## oasis1313

> He officially adopted Dick as well, though not until comparatively late, when he was already an adult and had moved out and was living in Bludhaven. It happened in Gotham Knights, with the offer being made in #17, and the two of them going to file the papers in #21. More a symbolic gesture than a practical one, made because he knew it would mean something to Dick. Though I guess being made son and heir to a billionaire _is_ actually something fairly substantial, even without the unspoken cape and cowl that goes with it.
> 
> The wording of the "two sons" reference gave me much the same impression; that it was the two sons who were present in the comic, without either confirming or denying any other adoptions he might have undertaken.


An adoption can happen at any age and in any circumstances.  I mean, I can legally adopt some 98 year-old granny as my daughter if we both want to do it.  But isn't it kind of a slap in Dick's face that Bruce wanted to adopt a car-thieving street kid and not him?

----------


## PennyD

I love this sooo freking much! OMGEEEEE!!!!!! YAYAYAYA!!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The Max Allan Collins collection of Jason stories is the most exciting news for me lately.  I hope they collect the Starlin stuff.  
> 
> I liked pre-Crisis Jason, at least his stories, so I hope more of those get collected.  More Conway or Moench basically.  When he dressed up in Dick's costume and helped Batman take out Joker in Guatemala.  His first pre-Crisis outing against Crazy Quilt.


I'm looking forward to the Max Allan Collins collection myself and I hope it leads to other collections of Jason's time as Robin, particularly the pre-Crisis stories. DC has never really done much about collecting any those stories beyond _Death in the Family_ and _The Cult_ and trying to come up with the individual issues is a real pain.

----------


## Tony Stark

> An adoption can happen at any age and in any circumstances.  I mean, I can legally adopt some 98 year-old granny as my daughter if we both want to do it.  But isn't it kind of a slap in Dick's face that Bruce wanted to adopt a car-thieving street kid and not him?


I don't think it's a slap in the face. I think Bruce saw that Jason needed it more. Dick was more stable.

----------


## Aioros22

> An adoption can happen at any age and in any circumstances.  I mean, I can legally adopt some 98 year-old granny as my daughter if we both want to do it.  But isn't it kind of a slap in Dick's face that Bruce wanted to adopt a car-thieving street kid and not him?


Jason`s life was harsher. But pre crisis, Dick was the one willing to adopt Jason in the first place.

----------


## Godlike13

Well from the reports come June RHatO is gone, and surprisingly its Starfire who comes out with a solo. Though further reports are indicating a Red Hood/Arsenal book by Scott Lobdell too. Which i can't say sounds very inspiring. Shame.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

*'Red Hood/Arsenal' by writer Scott Lobdell & artist Denis Medri"*

Their friendship is the best thing from RHATO and they will make an AWESOME team, Lobdell remains on writing duties and Denis Medri is an excellent choice for the book



http://denism79.deviantart.com/


Sign me the F*** UP!


So long Kori, you won't be missed.

----------


## Badou

Hopefully Starfire is gone from the book for good. With just Jason and Roy they can have a tone that fits their style more while still being fun and don't have to constantly accommodate a super powered alien that just follows them around. It's a lot more balanced without her. Plus hopefully no more dull space arcs!

----------


## scary harpy

> Hopefully Starfire is gone from the book for good. With just Jason and Roy they can have a tone that fits their style more while still being fun and don't have to constantly accommodate a super powered alien that just follows them around. It's a lot more balanced without her. Plus hopefully no more dull space arcs!


I hope the Outlaws breakup is amicable; I also hope for some other characters in this book. 

I like Jason and Roy but I would really like them to interact with othes as well.

----------


## Kalethas31

I like RHATO, I would have liked to see essence replacing kori

----------


## Aioros22

I enjoy RATHO`s dynamic, but I`m on board of course. They aren`t erasing anything, they are adapting it to something new.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I enjoy RATHO`s dynamic, but I`m on board of course. They aren`t erasing anything, they are adapting it to something new.


Exactly, this is just RHATO with a new coat of paint.

The name change was necessary after Tynion burned out most of the readership but the fact they aren't included on the title doesn't mean that Essence or Crux won't show up. Hell, if Kori takes the Starfire with her I can see Roy and Jason crashing with Crux.

Rose is most likely out of consideration given recent developments on Deathstroke.

----------


## jules

> Hopefully Starfire is gone from the book for good. With just Jason and Roy they can have a tone that fits their style more while still being fun and don't have to constantly accommodate a super powered alien that just follows them around. It's a lot more balanced without her. Plus hopefully no more dull space arcs!


I'm really bored with the space arcs. They're always reaching frantically if the characters in them don't have any flight or invulnerability or space-based powers, and this is as true now as it was when the Titans used to head off to Tamaran with Dick in charge. Much as I like Starfire, RHATO had to go through a lot of contortions to come up with plots and missions that worked for all three characters.

I'd really like to see a book that was basically what the first few pages of Red Hood and the Outlaws promised: a kind of buddy/caper team-up between two characters who have street level powers, where it's entirely driven by their interaction and the scrapes they get into. Hopefully this will be that book.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

No more space stories and aliens.Please!I'm so down with Roy and Jay being the focus of the book!

----------


## Kalethas31

more mystic stories for jason

----------


## king of hybrids

i wonder will lobdell ever get round to making helspont happen?




> Rose is most likely out of consideration given recent developments on Deathstroke.


what happened?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> i wonder will lobdell ever get round to making helspont happen?
> 
> 
> 
> what happened?


She's protecting Jericho from the arc's big bad and is sporting a whole new outfit and characterization.

You know, the worst part of this news is the fact Roy and Kori are going separate ways. Their relationship was lovely and is gonna break my heart if Roy willingly steps aside for Kori's sake.

I can picture issue 40 ending with Roy looking Kori fly away and when asked by Jason if he's okay, Roy will only fix his hat to cover his eyes and answer "Let's go Jaybird"

 :Frown:

----------


## JasonTodd428

Sign me up. A buddy book between Jason and Roy sounds good to me. I'm really looking forward to this. 




> She's protecting Jericho from the arc's big bad and is sporting a whole new outfit and characterization.
> 
> You know, the worst part of this news is the fact Roy and Kori are going separate ways. Their relationship was lovely and is gonna break my heart if Roy willingly steps aside for Kori's sake.
> 
> I can picture issue 40 ending with Roy looking Kori fly away and when asked by Jason if he's okay, Roy will only fix his hat to cover his eyes and answer "Let's go Jaybird"


I'm going to miss Roy and Kori as well. I thought their relationship was sweet.

----------


## Badou

I dunno, the Roy and Starfire relationship felt forced to me. I don't think they intended them to be in a relationship but because of the negative backlash of the early issues they put them in a relationship to quell some of it. Always thought they worked better as friends.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Well this recent announcement vindicates my points about this book not really being about Outlaws,if DC wanted to sell them as Outlaws then they would have continued using the name. With Lobdell still on board I dont see what improvement this book is gonna get, Starfire leaving is good yes FOR HER, Jay and Roy are still stuck in the same place,and now they've lost a prominent female character,I dont see how it's not gonna get worse.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I dunno, the Roy and Starfire relationship felt forced to me. I don't think they intended them to be in a relationship but because of the negative backlash of the early issues they put them in a relationship to quell some of it. Always thought they worked better as friends.


I got the impression they were intended to be a sort of threesome and the negative backlash cut it short. I thought Lobdell was aiming to a "Savages" kind of setting.

I don't like Starfire and Roy, but they aren't necessary going to break up. Nightwing and Oracle were in a relationship and in different books fore years, Black Canary and Green Arrow, Kyle Rayner and Donna Troy...even in some very twisted way Harley and the Joker. I think is going to depend on why she left and how

----------


## Godlike13

They're probably breaking up. I wouldn't be surprised if Starfire's new book kind of ignores RHatO the same way Harley Quinn's kind of did Suicide Squad.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Well this recent announcement vindicates my points about this book not really being about Outlaws,if DC wanted to sell them as Outlaws then they would have continued using the name.


The name change is more because RHATO as brand was irremediably damaged by Tynion's run. The book at its core will remain the same, specially if Crux becomes a recurrent character since he can replace Kori as the "space involved, heavy character" perfectly.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The name change is more because RHATO as brand was irremediably damaged by Tynion's run. The book at its core will remain the same, specially if Crux becomes a recurrent character since he can replace Kori as the "space involved, heavy character" perfectly.


Lol what? it still has Red Hood as a title doesn't it? it still has Lobdell, if they were worried about names and association then they would've called it something else entirely,introduced new characters and a new writer. It's not called Outlaws because there are no Outlaws,the Outlaws never had any brand power because you know "they are not outlaws". Also DC just made a huge mistake,they should have handed Jason over to the Bat editorial where Doyle could've done something special with him the way he's been doing for other characters,dropping Starfire altogether will not change anything. The writer is mediocre,and fresh out of ideas,he has long overstayed his welcome and there's no guarantee those space adventures will stop simply because Starfire left, Kori's departure will not magically make this book any better as fans and apparently DC editorial seem to believe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Lol what? it still has Red Hood as a title doesn't it? it still has Lobdell, if they were worried about names and association then they would've called it something else entirely,introduced new characters and a new writer. It's not called Outlaws because there are no Outlaws,the Outlaws never had any brand power because you know "they are not outlaws". Also DC just made a huge mistake,they should have handed Jason over to the Bat editorial where Doyle could've done something special with him the way he's been doing for other characters,dropping Starfire altogether will not change anything. The writer is mediocre,and fresh out of ideas,he has long overstayed his welcome and there's no guarantee those space adventures will stop simply because Starfire left, Kori's departure will not magically make this book any better as fans and apparently DC editorial seem to believe.


All the merch (action figures, Eaglemoss figures, heroclix) that has used the characters being branded as "Red Hood & the Outlaws" says otherwise.

You're also ignoring the fact that Jason has a HUGE fanbase and that the book sold extremely well during Lobdell's first tenure with sales tanking only until Tynion. Lobdell's return was way too late to change the trend and so DC has chosen to shake things a little and effectively bury Tynion's work into the limbo.

And reactions for the book have been postive all around the internet.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> All the merch (action figures, Eaglemoss figures, heroclix) that has used the characters being branded as "Red Hood & the Outlaws" says otherwise.
> 
> You're also ignoring the fact that Jason has a HUGE fanbase and that the book sold extremely well during Lobdell's first tenure with sales tanking only until Tynion. Lobdell's return was way too late to change the trend and so DC has chosen to shake things a little and effectively bury Tynion's work into the limbo.
> 
> And reactions for the book have been postive all around the internet.


But it's time for a fresh start, remember Gail Simone is a huge fan of Black Canary and Barbara but they're not giving her those projects now are they? it's inevitable.

----------


## Godlike13

Leaving him with Lobdell, relaunching basically the same book just minus Starfire, to me just further proves that they still don't really know what to do with Jason. So they're basally just leaving him where he is, even if where he is has lost its audience and is mostly ignored. I can't help but laugh though when u look at all their press releases they don't really mention Red Hood/Arsenal by Lobdell. But i guess what would that sound like, going on about diversity, critically acclaimed writers, fresh voices, and how this is a bold new direction for the DC Universe but then what they're gonna be like "oh and there's Red Hood/Arsenal by Lobdell". Kind of spits in the face of all that. 

Its just shame really. Im super happy for Starfire that they're at least doing it with her, but it would have been nice if Red Hood was also one of those characters they were trying a new direction and fresh voice on.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Leaving him with Lobdell, relaunching basically the same book just minus Starfire, to me just further proves that they still don't really know what to do with Jason. So they're basally just leaving him where he is, even if where he is has lost its audience and is mostly ignored. I can't help but laugh though when u look at all their press releases they don't really mention Red Hood/Arsenal by Lobdell. But i guess what would that sound like, going on about diversity, critically acclaimed writers, fresh voices, and how this is a bold new direction for the DC Universe but then what they're gonna be like "oh and there's Red Hood/Arsenal by Lobdell". Kind of spits in the face of all that. 
> 
> Its just shame really. Im super happy for Starfire that they're at least doing it with her, but it would have been nice if Red Hood was also one of those characters they were trying a new direction and fresh voice on.


You, as most of the media outlets are being biased.

RH/Arsenal is just one of the many books announced that is being overshadowed by JLA, Starfire (mostly because the controversy four years ago, it seems people just can't let that go), We Are Robin (because is so out the left field that no one knows what to expect) and maybe, Damian Son of Batman (because it comes on the heels of his resurrection)

I mean, where's the buzz for Martian Manhunter, GL: Lost Army, Dark Universe or even Midnighter?

And what is more, why change the direction of Jason when is working so well?

Detractors like you are on the minority, the bulk of the fans agree that is the best direction has had since his resurrection.

----------


## Godlike13

That argument only sort of works when a book's sales and rank aren't in the pooper.

----------


## Tony Stark

> That argument only sort of works when a book's sales and rank aren't in the pooper.


Can you show me were sales are in the pooper?! Also if it was that bad. Why would DC keep the book going basically costing the company money. For a book going on 40 issues in this day and age. I'd say that was pretty good. They are just giving Starfire her own book and keeping Jason the same. Which to me sounds if it ain't broke. Don't fix it.

----------


## Godlike13

Look at the sale charts. And i don't know why DC keeps this book going. Thats whats perplexing. Even when they just relaunch a book they usually at least change up the creative team, but they're not really even doing that. RHatO is an oddity. DC's other books that are performing like RHatOs does are either gone, or getting relaunched with at least a new creative teams. By all reason RHatO is broke by DC's standards, but for some reason they're not even trying to fix it. And thats a shame because nothing gets better that way.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Look at the sale charts. And i don't know why DC keeps this book going. Thats whats perplexing. Even when they just relaunch a book they usually at least change up the creative team, but they're not really even doing that. RHatO is an oddity. DC's other books that are performing like RHatOs does are either gone, or getting relaunched with at least a new creative teams. By all reason RHatO is broke by DC's standards, but for some reason they're not even trying to fix it. And thats a shame because nothing gets better that way.


So do you see the future or something?

Because is quite the bold claim to say that Red Hood/Arsenal won't get better.

As Tony said, the book isn't broke so there's no need to fix anything  and for a book that has suffered from terrible, TERRIBLE writers and massively uneven art the numbers it keeps moving are incredibly good.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I think the new book will be fine.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Look at the sale charts. And i don't know why DC keeps this book going. Thats whats perplexing. Even when they just relaunch a book they usually at least change up the creative team, but they're not really even doing that. RHatO is an oddity. DC's other books that are performing like RHatOs does are either gone, or getting relaunched with at least a new creative teams. By all reason RHatO is broke by DC's standards, but for some reason they're not even trying to fix it. And thats a shame because nothing gets better that way.


According to you yes, but not DC. Again I 'd like you to show me these pooper sales. Also this book is going on 40 issues without having to have Batman guest star in every other issue. It barely ties in to Batman. He doesn't guest star in it. It's gotten this far because of the characters and teams on the book. Jason has appeared in more Batman books then Batman has appeared in Red Hood and The Outlaws and before anyone tries to come with the asinine arguement that I'm saying Batman needs Jason Todd in his books. That is not what I'm saying.(I'm not specifically saying you Godlike13. I'm just starting it before another poster comes with that non sense.) Red Hood and the Outlaws keeps going without having to tie into ever Batman event and all DC is doing is giving Starfire her own book with Teen Titans coming up and going right back with Red Hood and Arsenal. With Lobdell writing. So it can't be too bad if that's what they are doing.

----------


## Rakiduam

> According to you yes, but not DC. Again I 'd like you to show me these pooper sales. Also this book is going on 40 issues without having to have Batman guest star in every other issue. It barely ties in to Batman. He doesn't guest star in it. It's gotten this far because of the characters and teams on the book. Jason has appeared in more Batman books then Batman has appeared in Red Hood and The Outlaws and before anyone tries to come with the asinine arguement that I'm saying Batman needs Jason Todd in his books. That is not what I'm saying.(I'm not specifically saying you Godlike13. I'm just starting it before another poster comes with that non sense.) Red Hood and the Outlaws keeps going without having to tie into ever Batman event and all DC is doing is giving Starfire her own book with Teen Titans coming up and going right back with Red Hood and Arsenal. With Lobdell writing. So it can't be too bad if that's what they are doing.


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html

December 2014  18,723
Nov 2014           19,245
Oct 2014            19,837........

I'm pretty sure RHATO has tied to every Batman event.

----------


## nj06

I liked the dynamic between Starfire and Jason Todd. I'm upset that the two of them won't be on a team together anymore. Roy is my least favorite of the Outlaws, but I;m glad he will be sticking around with Jason. I hope Jason and Starfire remain in touch with one another.

----------


## Tony Stark

> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html
> 
> December 2014  18,723
> Nov 2014           19,245
> Oct 2014            19,837........
> 
> I'm pretty sure RHATO has tied to every Batman event.


It had a one part tie in to Court of Owls. It tied into Death of a Family and one issue of Zero Year. That's not every event. Also those aren't the best sales. No doubt, but it's still doing well enough to keep going.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And again, excellent sales for a book that it had 13 artists and three writers.

----------


## oasis1313

Good riddance, Starfire.  Now I can buy a Jason Todd book without the excess baggage.

----------


## phonogram12

I'm hesitant about this book without Starfire. I loved the chemistry between the three of them. She brought something out in Jason that actually made me like the character for the first time since his resurrection. I'll give it a shot, but IDK...

However, I'm super psyched that Starfire's getting her own series! She's a great character that totally deserves her own series!

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Good riddance, Starfire.  Now I can buy a Jason Todd book without the excess baggage.


I agree man.

----------


## Tony Stark

> And again, excellent sales for a book that it had 13 artists and three writers.


Exactly. Without a consistent team these days. It's hard to keep a book going. Sometimes even with a consistent team. Also a few people said that after Rocafort left that that would be the end of it. They were wrong.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

Here's, an... um, interesting redesign of Jason's outfit from Gavin Michelli of Devianart:

http://gavinmichelli.deviantart.com/...gned-381120942

----------


## Aioros22

> That argument only sort of works when a book's sales and rank aren't in the pooper.


Where is the poop?




> Lol what? it still has Red Hood as a title doesn't it? it still has Lobdell, if they were worried about names and association then they would've called it something else entirely,introduced new characters and a new writer. It's not called Outlaws because there are no Outlaws,the Outlaws never had any brand power because you know "they are not outlaws".


Son, you have already looked foolish defending the "they aren`t outlaws" balloney twice on this board (defending an argument without reading the book) and in either instance you just dissapared on thin air.  

DC has marketed the 3 togeher as Outlaws and Jason alone as "Red Hood". There`s basic branding for you. 




> Also DC just made a huge mistake,they should have handed Jason over to the Bat editorial where Doyle could've done something special with him the way he's been doing for other characters,dropping Starfire altogether will not change anything. The writer is mediocre,and fresh out of ideas,he has long overstayed his welcome and there's no guarantee those space adventures will stop simply because Starfire left, Kori's departure will not magically make this book any better as fans and apparently DC editorial seem to believe.


There isn`t a need to game change everything. Jason has been used in every main Batman crossover and has starred aside in Action together with the likes of Supergirl and Superman. There has never been a time before where Jason was handled by so many writers in so many titles in a consistantly well written manner:

Action
Supergirl
Eternal
Batman&Robin
Ratho
Annual
Batman
Teen Titans

Now he`s showing up in Gotham: Knight as a full character with a story release and with the rumor of him being the main antagonist as well. This is all a step up from UDRH and the animated feature. Jason now got bigger gravitas and a fuller backstory with the Untitled to street gangs. 

They obviously know what they are doing in this case.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Sigh...I got half of what I want: RHatO getting cancelled.

But now, instead of a solo, we have a buddy comic....sigh. Also, with Damian getting his own book, that practically makes a RH/Talia arc have zero chance of happening.

Also, they brought Lobdell back? If you're gonna relaunch this book, at least bring in a new writer, as well as artist. Was Lemire not available? Image is full of talent. Not necessarily hating on Lobdell (at least in terms of him writing RH; everything else he's done is fair game, tho), but I wanted someone new. 

Sorry to sound like a spoiled sport, but anyone who's seen my posts shouldn't be surprised. I'll check it out, but I'm heavy with the skepticism right now. I'm hoping for a darker take on the Hawkeye/Quantum & Woody buddy dynamic. 

Also, no more space crap.

....

Still don't see why Roy couldn't have just been thrown into GA's book. For gods' sake, they even gave f***ing *STARFIRE* her own book, but not RH?!

----------


## Aioros22

Starfire won`t last long going solo. 
I don`t mind Red Hood being paired with someone. He`s still fresh compared to Tim and Dick publication wise and DC should be wise to step up organically as they have been doing. He`s still the main character and their dinamic is good. Roy does seem he`s showing up in GA more, which is oviously cool. Maybe this was a pet request of Loedbell.

----------


## king of hybrids

so; is Lobdell still going to try set helspont up as some form of overarching foe for jason; or does teem doomsday get that singular misery now?

as for redesigns; i'd go with arkham knight's look as a start if you want to move away from a deadpool-ish mask

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Starfire won`t last long going solo. 
> I don`t mind Red Hood being paired with someone. He`s still fresh compared to Tim and Dick publication wise and DC should be wise to step up organically as they have been doing. He`s still the main character and their dinamic is good. Roy does seem he`s showing up in GA more, which is oviously cool. Maybe this was a pet request of Loedbell.


I don't really mind RH being paired either; remember I wanted to see him paired with Talia, or a newly introduced Cass (to give Jason a new rogue in David Cain). I wanted some full circle stuff for Jason; to put him in Bruce's shoes, of sorts.

Like I said, I'm not giving up on Jason; I'll pick up his new title with cautious optimism.

----------


## phonogram12

> For gods' sake, they even gave f***ing *STARFIRE* her own book, but not RH?!


They're trying to appeal to a wider demographic these days. I honestly can't blame them. I'm looking forward to it, personally. That Amanda Conner cover is AWESOME!!!

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> They're trying to appeal to a wider demographic these days. I honestly can't blame them. I'm looking forward to it, personally. That Amanda Conner cover is AWESOME!!!


Not saying it won't be good, as I love this creative team; it's just fact that Kori, *BEFORE JASON*, got a solo. That's just random.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Starfire won`t last long going solo. 
> I don`t mind Red Hood being paired with someone. He`s still fresh compared to Tim and Dick publication wise and DC should be wise to step up organically as they have been doing. He`s still the main character and their dinamic is good. Roy does seem he`s showing up in GA more, which is oviously cool. Maybe this was a pet request of Loedbell.


being wirtten by amanda connor, given a less stripper outfit
and of course her weekly exposure on tv

Starfire is gonna do great

Redhood surivives mostly for his crossover use

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> being wirtten by amanda connor, given a less stripper outfit
> and of course her weekly exposure on tv
> 
> Starfire is gonna do great


That is far from being accurate. A cult hit is certain but is incredibly hard to assure it will be a comercial success.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> being wirtten by amanda connor, given a less stripper outfit
> and of course her weekly exposure on tv
> 
> Starfire is gonna do great
> 
> Redhood surivives mostly for his crossover use


You got it backwards. If not for Jason being in this book, Kori wouldn't have gotten enough attention; thus no solo.

----------


## oasis1313

> They're trying to appeal to a wider demographic these days. I honestly can't blame them. I'm looking forward to it, personally. That Amanda Conner cover is AWESOME!!!


What wider demographic?  The untapped reader groups that buy comics just for chesty women wearing scanty costumes?

----------


## phonogram12

> What wider demographic?  The untapped reader groups that buy comics just for chesty women wearing scanty costumes?


The same demographic that's picking up Harley Quinn and the current run of Batgirl. That demographic. This is fantastic news for a fantastic character.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The same demographic that's picking up Harley Quinn and the current run of Batgirl. That demographic. This is fantastic news for a fantastic character.


so who is that exactly. it isnt just women, Harley quinn her self is loved by all. Thats why her sales are so high.  Batgirl has been doin well before her little revamp, since people wanted the OG batgirl back.

if amanda can bring starfire back to she can have a solid book
2011-09-26-math.jpg

----------


## Csjbo08

> You got it backwards. If not for Jason being in this book, Kori wouldn't have gotten enough attention; thus no solo.


Starfire being in RHATO was more detrimental to her character IMO as there were several other books that she could have been that were more popular and had more of a presence in the DCU than RHATO.  The idea that Starfire got a solo because of her association with Jason is ridiculous.  

The main reason why Starfire got a solo was because DC wanted to diversity their titles and respectively their readership and Starfire was a character that had a sizeable fanbase in large part due to the Teen Titans animated adaptations.

----------


## phonogram12

> so who is that exactly. it isnt just women...


Agreed. The great thing about the new creative team on Batgirl is that on top of the previous readers it widens the fanbase even further. Hopefully this new book can do the same with Starfire, who's been a fantastic character since her first introduction into the DCU.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Starfire being in RHATO was more detrimental to her character IMO as there were several other books that she could have been that were more popular and had more of a presence in the DCU than RHATO.  The idea that Starfire got a solo because of her association with Jason is ridiculous.  
> 
> The main reason why Starfire got a solo was because DC wanted to diversity their titles and respectively their readership and Starfire was a character that had a sizeable fanbase in large part due to the Teen Titans animated adaptations.


I think it has alot to do with the live action Teen Titans show coming out as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think it has alot to do with the live action Teen Titans show coming out as well.


That is more likely.

The idea of editorial pandering to the fans of a decade old show is kind of ridiculous.

And no, TTG doesn't count because the sales of its comic are abyssmal.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

I'd be more excited if Jason were teaming up with pre 52 Roy and it was written by Judd Winick.I loved how he wrote Roy in Outsiders and I love how he writes Jason.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That is more likely.
> 
> The idea of editorial pandering to the fans of a decade old show is kind of ridiculous.
> 
> And no, TTG doesn't count because the sales of its comic are abyssmal.


ehhh i feel like if that was really the case then nightwing would be getting the new comic.
Perhaps we will be getting one based on the tv show similar to arrow and such.

That cover alone gives me a feel of the animated starfire, who  very much mirrors her comic origins. 
Thats the one fan love and new people will enjoy.

Oh and starfire is definitely a more popular character then jason todd

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Oh and starfire is definitely a more popular character then jason todd


Based on what exactly?

----------


## oasis1313

Starfire is definitely more popular than Jason among the T+A crowd.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh and starfire is definitely a more popular character then jason todd


Let`s pretend there`s airplanes and shooting stars.




> Starfire being in RHATO was more detrimental to her character IMO as there were several other books that she could have been that were more popular and had more of a presence in the DCU than RHATO.


More of a presence? I guess so. 

A detritment? Can`t really see how. She still had space opera written all over it.

----------


## Aioros22

> being wirtten by amanda connor, given a less stripper outfit
> and of course her weekly exposure on tv
> 
> Starfire is gonna do great
> 
> Redhood surivives mostly for his crossover use


We all know she won`t. Not that I wish any harm, but she will last more or less as much as Raven did and her appeal on the cartoon is bigger on fanfic basis. 

By the way, she`s been wearing stripper outfits since she was created. That`s a character thing.

----------


## Tony Stark

> ehhh i feel like if that was really the case then nightwing would be getting the new comic.
> Perhaps we will be getting one based on the tv show similar to arrow and such.
> 
> That cover alone gives me a feel of the animated starfire, who  very much mirrors her comic origins. 
> Thats the one fan love and new people will enjoy.
> 
> Oh and starfire is definitely a more popular character then jason todd


Why would they give Nightwing a book when the one he has now is doing so incredibly well?! People know Nightwing/Dick Grayson. They are giving Starfire a series due to the TT show coming out.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Redhood surivives mostly for his crossover use


The crossovers he was in barely had an effect on the series. So saying he survives due to his crossover use is far off lol. The book got to and is still going to 40 issues with Jason as the main star. That's why the book is called Red Hood and The Outlaws.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> Why would they give Nightwing a book when the one he has now is doing so incredibly well?! People know Nightwing/Dick Grayson. They are giving Starfire a series due to the TT show coming out.


A show that hasn't even been greenlit for a season yet

----------


## Darkspellmaster

The thing about Jason I think is that he tends to play the bad boy of the group, that's why they keep him around. Damian is to young to fill that role, so Jason is the Raphal of the turtles if you will. I'm someone that's a bit new to Jason as a whole, only getting to read him in some less then great parts in some cross overs. So what would be a suggestion for getting to know both version of Jason, and side note I did watch the Red Hood movie. So where does one move on from there?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> The thing about Jason I think is that he tends to play the bad boy of the group, that's why they keep him around. Damian is to young to fill that role, so Jason is the Raphal of the turtles if you will. I'm someone that's a bit new to Jason as a whole, only getting to read him in some less then great parts in some cross overs. So what would be a suggestion for getting to know both version of Jason, and side note I did watch the Red Hood movie. So where does one move on from there?


Red Hood: Lost Days is pretty good.

Also, read both the Under the Hood comic arcs, and the giant one-shot/annual.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The thing about Jason I think is that he tends to play the bad boy of the group, that's why they keep him around. Damian is to young to fill that role, so Jason is the Raphal of the turtles if you will. I'm someone that's a bit new to Jason as a whole, only getting to read him in some less then great parts in some cross overs. So what would be a suggestion for getting to know both version of Jason, and side note I did watch the Red Hood movie. So where does one move on from there?


Red Hood & the Outlaws of course. But only Lobdell's issues.

----------


## phonogram12

As long as Winnick isn't let anywhere near Jason I'm good.  :Smile:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

AMAZING commision from Silva



He really does fantastic job without time constraints.  

And for comparison's sake, there is a year old commision from Denis Medry, future RH/Arsenal artist



While Medry's look simpler than Silva's, he does have a more distinctive style that it'll certainly put Red Hood/Arsenal as one of the best looking books this June.

----------


## Tony Stark

> AMAZING commision from Silva
> 
> 
> 
> He really does fantastic job without time constraints.  
> 
> And for comparison's sake, there is a year old commision from Denis Medry, future RH/Arsenal artist
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the share. GLORIOUS PICS!

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Okay, this is probably obvious, but does anyone else see the uncanny similarities between the new Lobo and Jason? Both are very much that "Devil May Cry/Dante"-esque style (young, handsome adult males, with cynical/sarcastic/matter of fact personality, flashy/stylish gun and blade fighting style, and general not giving a **** atmosphere). I guess one could say that if one wishes for a more brutal Jason Todd, they could read the Lobo series. XD

Still love Jason (favorite Bat-family character by far), but I agree with others when they say that he wasn't really an outlaw. Sure, I get that he hasn't been portrayed as a noble guy either, but, tbh, what I'm getting from the Lobo book is what I expected from a RH Outlaw book. It's not like such brutality is beyond Jason; UtH and RH:LD are prime examples of Jason Todd being that kind of outlaw. 

Regardless, I'm glad they're removing the "outlaw" from the title. Also, with Lobo being the space guy, it's kind of redundant to have Jason, who so similar a character, also having space stories. So I'm looking forward to more grounded stories. I'd like to see a continuation of Jason's fued with Ra's, now with Lobdell at the helm.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Okay, this is probably obvious, but does anyone else see the uncanny similarities between the new Lobo and Jason? Both are very much that "Devil May Cry/Dante"-esque style (young, handsome adult males, with cynical/sarcastic/matter of fact personality, flashy/stylish gun and blade fighting style, and general not giving a **** atmosphere). I guess one could say that if one wishes for a more brutal Jason Todd, they could read the Lobo series. XD
> 
> Still love Jason (favorite Bat-family character by far), but I agree with others when they say that he wasn't really an outlaw. Sure, I get that he hasn't been portrayed as a noble guy either, but, tbh, what I'm getting from the Lobo book is what I expected from a RH Outlaw book. It's not like such brutality is beyond Jason; UtH and RH:LD are prime examples of Jason Todd being that kind of outlaw. 
> 
> Regardless, I'm glad they're removing the "outlaw" from the title. Also, with Lobo being the space guy, it's kind of redundant to have Jason, who so similar a character, also having space stories. So I'm looking forward to more grounded stories. I'd like to see a continuation of Jason's fued with Ra's, now with Lobdell at the helm.


Lobdelll LOATHED everything Tynion did on the book, so he will never do any direct follow up tp anything Tynion did. Hell, Lobdell's first thing after returning to the title was dropping the all blades entirely.

----------


## K. Jones

> The thing about Jason I think is that he tends to play the bad boy of the group, that's why they keep him around. Damian is to young to fill that role, so Jason is the Raphal of the turtles if you will. I'm someone that's a bit new to Jason as a whole, only getting to read him in some less then great parts in some cross overs. So what would be a suggestion for getting to know both version of Jason, and side note I did watch the Red Hood movie. So where does one move on from there?


If Robins are Turtles the parallels make for obvious choices. Jason is Raphael ... Tim is Donatello ... Damian is Leonardo and Dick is sooooo Michelangelo.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Lobdelll LOATHED everything Tynion did on the book, so he will never do any direct follow up tp anything Tynion did. Hell, Lobdell's first thing after returning to the title was dropping the all blades entirely.


Lol, it's not up to Lobdell, if that's what DC/editors want him to do. Also, The blades have been seen in non-RHatO Jason appearances, so clearly DC, and/or other authors, like the blades. I bet, the moment Lobdell goes to another title (which we all know he will eventually), those blades will come back. Also, having a Talia centric are for Jason would be awsome; he shouldn't let stupid personal biases get in the way of a potentially really good story.

The blades aren't even necessary for him to do that kind of story.

----------


## TheObsessor

I loved Jason in Morrison's Batman and Robin, but I really don't like him in Redhood and the Outlaws. I don't like him being redeemed, anyway; I prefer him as sort of an anti-hero that murders people. And Scarlet was awesome as his sidekick.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Lol, it's not up to Lobdell, if that's what DC/editors want him to do. Also, The blades have been seen in non-RHatO Jason appearances, so clearly DC, and/or other authors, like the blades. I bet, the moment Lobdell goes to another title (which we all know he will eventually), those blades will come back. Also, having a Talia centric are for Jason would be awsome; he shouldn't let stupid personal biases get in the way of a potentially really good story.
> 
> The blades aren't even necessary for him to do that kind of story.


And Tynion ideas were so bad that all of the have been sent into the limbo. Bronze Tiger is normal now, Shiva is closer to the PreN52 version, hus totally "awesome" characters are gone just like that dumb city.
You kid yourself if you think an editor wamts them back.
And the last apearance of the blades was on the Batman Superman Annual, a few months before Lobdell's return to RHATO

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I loved Jason in Morrison's Batman and Robin, but I really don't like him in Redhood and the Outlaws. I don't like him being redeemed, anyway; I prefer him as sort of an anti-hero that murders people. And Scarlet was awesome as his sidekick.


Yeah, I'm not a big fan of him being redeemed either, but I don't want him to be a villain either. I'd rather he be an antagonist to the Bat-family, depending on the mission, in that they're getting in the way of his business. He should still be willing to help if the situation is desperate enough for him to warrant his presence, but I'd like him to do it on his own terms more often. Also, I was a fan of Scarlet being his sidekick. This is why I've been clamoring that if Jason has to be part of a team, I'd rather it be with a sidekick. I've been  thinking either a young Mia, or Cassandra.




> And Tynion ideas were so bad that all of the have been sent into the limbo. Bronze Tiger is normal now, Shiva is closer to the PreN52 version, hus totally "awesome" characters are gone just like that dumb city.
> You kid yourself if you think an editor wamts them back.
> And the last apearance of the blades was on the Batman Superman Annual, a few months before Lobdell's return to RHATO


Tynion's ideas weren't bad, just executed poorly and represented with pretty meh art. I'll admit that Shiva was horribly written, but Bronze Tiger being able to change into a "were-tiger" is awesome. This being the New 52, and all, it's not a big deal at all; though, I'd rather it be a temporary change, and he uses as trump card. 

Besides, if the latest issue of Deathstroke is anything to go on, I'd say that BT is not exactly normal given the less than human facial expressions he gave. We'll just have to keep reading to see if he can still transform. 

Also, Jason's blades were last seen in Supergirl #35. The way they were portrayed was pretty awesome. I don't see why the editors, or other writers, wouldn't want them back; not only are they one of the very few good things to come out of Tynion's run, but the very nature of those weapons (that it now seems like he can call on/summon them, at any time) only make it make MORE sense why Jason would use them. I don't get why you're so against the blades anyway; it's as if you forgot that they the were magical with Lobdell, BEFORE Tynion got a hold of the book. 

RHatO #5, w/ Lobdell on writing duties:
RHatO-05-15.jpg

So yeah, they'll be back; it'd be out of character for Jason not to use them. By the way, looking back at these issues, it's clear that the Ra's story wasn't Tynion's idea; he just f*cked up the story, with his inconsistent writing.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

One of the blades were even in the FE issue of RHatO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> One of the blades were even in the FE issue of RHatO.


If you mean the Futures End issue, that was just a katana

----------


## godisawesome

Anybody else like the knives (the kris one and the UTRH Bowie) he had in that Hong Kong stash early on? Not gonna lie, I'd love to see a fight where Jason uses those against a sword wielder. There slick and sleek, and they seem to fit him better in my opinion than any swords. At least as usual carry weapons; a katana/sabre would still be part of a lethal heroes armory, but knifes would be lighter and a bit more versatile while roof-hopping.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Lol, it's not up to Lobdell, if that's what DC/editors want him to do. Also, The blades have been seen in non-RHatO Jason appearances, so clearly DC, and/or other authors, like the blades. I bet, the moment Lobdell goes to another title (which we all know he will eventually), those blades will come back. Also, having a Talia centric are for Jason would be awsome; he shouldn't let stupid personal biases get in the way of a potentially really good story.
> 
> The blades aren't even necessary for him to do that kind of story.


Wont talia and ra's arcs be featured in damias new title....  there might be crossover potential but

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> If you mean the Futures End issue, that was just a katana


Most likely, but it could also be that artists depiction of the the sword. Still, doesn't change the fact that Lobdell was the first to have Jason use those swords, and that he started the All Caste story, despite Tynion effing it up. 

There's still a good chance that we see Ra's and Talia show up in RH/A.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Anybody else like the knives (the kris one and the UTRH Bowie) he had in that Hong Kong stash early on? Not gonna lie, I'd love to see a fight where Jason uses those against a sword wielder. There slick and sleek, and they seem to fit him better in my opinion than any swords. At least as usual carry weapons; a katana/sabre would still be part of a lethal heroes armory, but knifes would be lighter and a bit more versatile while roof-hopping.


I loved that knife, and have been disappointed that RH hasn't been shown using it. Just like the short swords, the knife is also a smart weapon for Jason to keep. 

Yes, those forearm blades are cool, but the swords and the knife allow for him to fit in more skillful ways.




> Wont talia and ra's arcs be featured in damias new title....  there might be crossover potential but


I hope this happens.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Most likely, but it could also be that artists depiction of the the sword. Still, doesn't change the fact that Lobdell was the first to have Jason use those swords, and that he started the All Caste story, despite Tynion effing it up. 
> 
> There's still a good chance that we see Ra's and Talia show up in RH/A.


That is exactly my point, Lobdell introduced the concepts but after Tynion poisoning that well he doesn't wanna know anything about them. And no, it was a Katana. The All Blades have a defined design.

And again, as long Lobdell is at the helm is unlikely Ra's or Talia will show up. His entire philosphy with Jason is to kept him away of anything coming from his Pre N52 version.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> That is exactly my point, Lobdell introduced the concepts but after Tynion poisoning that well he doesn't wanna know anything about them. And no, it was a Katana. The All Blades have a defined design.
> 
> And again, as long Lobdell is at the helm is unlikely Ra's or Talia will show up. His entire philosphy with Jason is to kept him away of anything coming from his Pre N52 version.


If Lobdell introduced the concepts, and the story, then it's contradicting that he wants Jason to be "kept away" from his pre-Nu52 roots; he's the one that told us that it was Talia that saved him, and put him in the All Caste.

Hell, the All Caste seems to be something the Batman Editorial part of DC wants. The fact that Lobdell did it first, and now once again has control over the depiction of Jason makes it more likely that he'd want to bring back Talia and Ra's to write the story, and characters, properly. Similar to what Hickman is doing with Ult. Reed and the 616 FF, now that he has control of the characters again.

Regardless, Talia and Jason's relationship is a very interesting one and is a good foundation for writing a story arc. I doubt Lobdell will past it up, especially seeing as he was the one gaves us the first glimpse at their relationship, and seeing as the All Caste is clearly DC editorial thing (aka Lobdell has no choice if they want to revisit this). Hell, even Essence has shown up after Tynion's run.

Stop fighting it, yo. There's no good reason why Ra's and Talia don't show up again, and it would be nice to see Lobdell's take on the confrontation. Why would a RH writer want to rid Jason of such a big time rogue anyway? Makes no sense.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If Lobdell introduced the concepts, and the story, then it's contradicting that he wants Jason to be "kept away" from his pre-Nu52 roots; he's the one that told us that it was Talia that saved him, and put him in the All Caste.
> 
> Hell, the All Caste seems to be something the Batman Editorial part of DC wants. The fact that Lobdell did it first, and now once again has control over the depiction of Jason makes it more likely that he'd want to bring back Talia and Ra's to write the story, and characters, properly. Similar to what Hickman is doing with Ult. Reed and the 616 FF, now that he has control of the characters again.
> 
> Regardless, Talia and Jason's relationship is a very interesting one and is a good foundation for writing a story arc. I doubt Lobdell will past it up, especially seeing as he was the one gaves us the first glimpse at their relationship, and seeing as the All Caste is clearly DC editorial thing (aka Lobdell has no choice if they want to revisit this). Hell, even Essence has shown up after Tynion's run.
> 
> Stop fighting it, yo. There's no good reason why Ra's and Talia don't show up again, and it would be nice to see Lobdell's take on the confrontation. Why would a RH writer want to rid Jason of such a big time rogue anyway? Makes no sense.


Because it limits his potential as character. 

Using Talia or Ra's  puts Jason squarely into Bruce's shadow instead of letting him being his own man. 

You're kind of overstimating the presence of Ra's and Talia on RHATO. Under Lobdell Ra's only got a few mentions (and none of those by name) while Talia only showed up on a few panels on issue two and again on Secret Origin -nearly two years later. And just to explain Jason's resurrection and drop him with the All-Caste. The All Caste very existence is another sample of Lobdell wanting to give Jason a different backstory. He could've used the League of Assassins or crib Lost Days but he choose to build a whole new mythology instead.

You're right, Essence did showed up again. But she's completely different to Tynion's take.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Because it limits his potential as character. 
> 
> Using Talia or Ra's  puts Jason squarely into Bruce's shadow instead of letting him being his own man. 
> 
> You're kind of overstimating the presence of Ra's and Talia on RHATO. Under Lobdell Ra's only got a few mentions (and none of those by name) while Talia only showed up on a few panels on issue two and again on Secret Origin -nearly two years later. And just to explain Jason's resurrection and drop him with the All-Caste. The All Caste very existence is another sample of Lobdell wanting to give Jason a different backstory. He could've used the League of Assassins or crib Lost Days but he choose to build a whole new mythology instead.
> 
> You're right, Essence did showed up again. But she's completely different to Tynion's take.


RH is already in Batman's shadow, due to all the Bruce-centric crossovers that paint him as a loyal Bat-fam member who will go to literal hell for the guy. Nothing Lobdell does will change that. This is a problem with Bat-fam members that won't be solved anytime soon. I'm still kinda turned off by how Jason wasn't turned off at how hard he fought to bring back Damian. Yeah, we saw the B&RH issue, but this time Bruce's obsession could've been sending them to their deaths, but Bruce didn't seem to care all that much because of his focus. I don't mind Jason going thru with the mission, but to just let that sh*t slide so easily was odd. Kind of tired of Bruce being a Gary Stu, and everything being fine, and dandy, because he won.

Lobdell wanted to give Jason a different background, but still had his current state heavily influenced by Talia...as did the Batman/DC editorial, with the Zero Year. He didn't do the secret league of assassin's, but he still did a secret group a of what are essentially mystic monks; it's not all that different. It's different in that the All Caste helped Jason to better control his anger ( well...more so after the Nu52 UtH; I still can't believe we've yet to see it...it probably should've been his story in Secret Origins).

With that outta the way, Ra's being a part of RH's rogue gallery is only a good thing. The fact that Ra's considers him such a threat is commendable, regardless of the writer. Besides, Jason seriously lacks Rogues, so Ra's being just one of them isn't a big deal. He should at least be involved with Jason thru his relationship with Talia; only makes sense. I'm also hoping for David Cain to join as a RH rogue. Maybe Deathstroke (unless you feel that puts Jason in Dick and Tim's shadows?). I don't see how an arc featuring a Jason save Talia from the influence of her father, and, potentially, rehabilitating her into a better person limits his character. That's something Batman could never do for Talia, and having Jason do that gives him something over Batman (besides being the mystic part of the Bat-fam).

Also, Essence showing up a being written competently is what I wanna see Lobdell do with Talia and Ra's. If he's willing touch Essence again, then Talia and Ra's are certainly not out of the question.

----------


## Aioros22

> Still love Jason (favorite Bat-family character by far), but I agree with others when they say that he wasn't really an outlaw. Sure, I get that he hasn't been portrayed as a noble guy either, but, tbh, what I'm getting from the Lobo book is what I expected from a RH Outlaw book. It's not like such brutality is beyond Jason; UtH and RH:LD are prime examples of Jason Todd being that kind of outlaw.


You can agree with that one poster (who`s "they"?) that he wasn`t an outlaw, but you`d be wrong, simply. 

That argument is just flat out embarassing. A character that acts out of the system, breaks people out of prisons, breaks-in Federal sites, whom the straight jackets like Superman and Supergirl feel uneeasy to be with, who constantly question his m.o, whom more than one writer in RATHO bothered to tell us that every main Federal Organization is just watching over in case he slips because of the rep sheet he got, and last but not the least, who does and will kill when necessary as viewed by himself, is an outlaw in every sense of the word. He does so with no regard to law whatsoever, his own compass being his code. 

(Bruce has broken into a FBI bulding but he let Gordon know he was going to. That`s a contrast exemple.) 

Being an outlaw is not defined by how much brutality you employ. That`s a sociapathy call. Talking about sociopaths, Lobo is classically a sociapath gun for hire. 

What separates/stands Jason out of the villain or nutcase camp is his code of honor and acting on the greater good. That`s the reason the Justice League and Batman vouch for him when something big happens and he helps, despite being at odds with how he works. Otherwise he`d be in jail. One of the exemples you picked, "Lost Years" doesn`t have Jason do stuff he hasn`t done in the reboot, in all technically. He has killed and he has shut down slave child trades. What it does have, and here is what you may be trying to get at, is a different tone in presentation. Less superhero, more dirt n` grit. Which is the tone I`d like in stand alone (back) stories for Jason. 

As for Talia and Ras debate, Talia being part of his life is almost mandatory, it will come up time to time. Ras less so, but I think it adds up for a rare ocurrence. Al Caste is a suberb concept for the bat line in particular to Jason and so are the gangs he was part of until Talia got him. All you need is a good writer to not fubar it. We`ve been kind of lucky thus far. 

Love the pre-reboot blade, love the new swords, magical or otherwise. Still love the guns. Nothing says he can`t use any of this in different situations. 

The being under the shadow argument, for my two cents, is simple: he`s part of a line with Batman as main centre. That will always happens, but you can and should make it less appearant in stories. Personally, I don`t feel Ras rarely showing up steers from that and I don`t think Jason not being angry at Bruce after rescuing Damian is bad or a misuse move that paints him as a puppet poster boy to Bruce. If you complain that he shouldn`t be all about Bruce then more "son" drama wouldn`t help. 

Jason voiced his thoughts and concerns to Bruce (more like, told him to go fubar himself with the trust talk - as he should) and then agreed to help him. He already knew what was up and he knew what would happen if they made it. To me, the fact he doesn`t voice or shout at Bruce about it, tells me he grew up. Like Loedbell first wrote him saying: he overgrew certain elements of his life. He went there out of respect and to do a job and he left, like he has been doing in 90% of his crossovers with the Bat manor.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> RH is already in Batman's shadow, due to all the Bruce-centric crossovers that paint him as a loyal Bat-fam member who will go to literal hell for the guy. Nothing Lobdell does will change that. This is a problem with Bat-fam members that won't be solved anytime soon. I'm still kinda turned off by how Jason wasn't turned off at how hard he fought to bring back Damian. Yeah, we saw the B&RH issue, but this time Bruce's obsession could've been sending them to their deaths, but Bruce didn't seem to care all that much because of his focus. I don't mind Jason going thru with the mission, but to just let that sh*t slide so easily was odd. Kind of tired of Bruce being a Gary Stu, and everything being fine, and dandy, because he won.
> 
> Lobdell wanted to give Jason a different background, but still had his current state heavily influenced by Talia...as did the Batman/DC editorial, with the Zero Year. He didn't do the secret league of assassin's, but he still did a secret group a of what are essentially mystic monks; it's not all that different. It's different in that the All Caste helped Jason to better control his anger ( well...more so after the Nu52 UtH; I still can't believe we've yet to see it...it probably should've been his story in Secret Origins).
> 
> With that outta the way, Ra's being a part of RH's rogue gallery is only a good thing. The fact that Ra's considers him such a threat is commendable, regardless of the writer. Besides, Jason seriously lacks Rogues, so Ra's being just one of them isn't a big deal. He should at least be involved with Jason thru his relationship with Talia; only makes sense. I'm also hoping for David Cain to join as a RH rogue. Maybe Deathstroke (unless you feel that puts Jason in Dick and Tim's shadows?). I don't see how an arc featuring a Jason save Talia from the influence of her father, and, potentially, rehabilitating her into a better person limits his character. That's something Batman could never do for Talia, and having Jason do that gives him something over Batman (besides being the mystic part of the Bat-fam).
> 
> Also, Essence showing up a being written competently is what I wanna see Lobdell do with Talia and Ra's. If he's willing touch Essence again, then Talia and Ra's are certainly not out of the question.


I like the way you think Sir.Ra's and Talia showing up isn't gonna keep Jason in Bruce's shadow anymore than he already is by being a loyal soldier.He wears a freaking bat logo on his chest.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like the way you think Sir.Ra's and Talia showing up isn't gonna keep Jason in Bruce's shadow anymore than he already is by being a loyal soldier.He wears a freaking bat logo on his chest.


I HATE Jason wearing that Bat-logo.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I like the way you think Sir.Ra's and Talia showing up isn't gonna keep Jason in Bruce's shadow anymore than he already is by being a loyal soldier.He wears a freaking bat logo on his chest.


Haha, that's so true; completely overlooked him proclaiming to the world that he's a member of the Bat-army, with that ridiculous bat logo. They really need to change that design. Oh and the mask/helmet being a face thing, too; if it's not gonna be done as well as Anarky's mask, don't even bother (besides the mask always looks better without the face).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't understand how after  absolutely NO ONE giving importance to the emblem in story and even Lobdell outright saying (through Kori) that Jason isn't defined by what he wears or who he knows. People STILL gets hung on it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Personally, I prefer the red bat symbol or even no symbol at all as far as character designs go but then again I didn't care for the symbol he was sporting in "Revenge of the Red Hood" either. That whole costume was just bad IMO and the symbol was too close to Punisher's, which I thought only added to the Punisher-lite aspect of the character at the time. I have no desire at all in seeing that aspect return either in costume or in characterization as I prefer to have a Jason Todd that has gotten past all the sh*t that happened in his past. He's being more proactive now instead of reactive, which was how he was being portrayed by writers before the reboot. That makes him a stronger character IMHO then he was before.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I don't understand how after  absolutely NO ONE giving importance to the emblem in story and even Lobdell outright saying (through Kori) that Jason isn't defined by what he wears or who he knows. People STILL gets hung on it.


Because is a graphic medium. Symbols, emblems and uniforms, are part of the story. Nobody has to be defined for what they wear but there's a reason why they chose it. Even in the story they created a story for that particular uniform. 

 Starfire and Lobdell can say whatever they want it not going to change the message behind that emblem.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because is a graphic medium. Symbols, emblems and uniforms, are part of the story. Nobody has to be defined for what they wear but there's a reason why they chose it. Even in the story they created a story for that particular uniform. 
> 
>  Starfire and Lobdell can say whatever they want it not going to change the message behind that emblem.


And what is exactly that message? Because thanks to the N52 and RHATO's excellent development of Jason. When I see the red bat I think of Jason as his own character.

There's nothing on Jason's actions through RHATO that give any weight to the symbol, Snyder only has used him as mere background character that has barely spoken with Bruce (in fact, on every time Bruce communicates with the family, Jason is always absent), on B&R Jason was again just a background character that didn't have any plot relevance whatsoever.

The only point where Jason is closely tied to Bruce is on Eternal. But Eternal is terrible and everyone is written out of character (and chances are that it won't even matter at the end) so why care about it?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And what is exactly that message?


For me the message of the symbol is simply that Jason has moved on from all the sh*t in his past and has also moved on from his issues with Batman and his extended family so that he can at least work with them when needed. In other words he's put the past in the past where it belongs.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> For me the message of the symbol is simply that Jason has moved on from all the sh*t in his past and has also moved on from his issues with Batman and his extended family so that he can at least work with them when needed. In other words he's put the past in the past where it belongs.


Exactly.

Of course if you want a more simple and realistic reason for the symbol. Is all about having a solid brand.

The Red Bat is both an easy way to single out Jason among all the DC characters while also serving as a link to Batman for any new consumers.

----------


## Rakiduam

> And what is exactly that message?


That he is a member of batman's family/army/mithos..... 

 BTW the Red Bat doesn't single out Jason, Terry used it first, Thomas uses it now too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That he is a member of batman's family/army/mithos..... 
> 
>  BTW the Red Bat doesn't single out Jason, Terry used it first, Thomas uses it now too.


Well, duh. Jason IS all of that.

And those examples you mentions are different designs.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That he is a member of batman's family/army/mithos..... 
> 
>  BTW the Red Bat doesn't single out Jason, Terry used it first, Thomas uses it now too.


Actually all three of those characters have a variation on the same symbol (a red bat) so it is possible to tell which character is which by their own variation of the symbol. Also Jason has always been a part of the Batman family and mythos even when he was the villian so why that needs to change I've no idea. He was a Robin before he was killed and like it or not that makes him a Bat.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Actually all three of those characters have a variation on the same symbol (a red bat) so it is possible to tell which character is which by their own variation of the symbol. Also Jason has always been a part of the Batman family and mythos even when he was the villian so why that needs to change I've no idea. He was a Robin before he was killed and like it or not that makes him a Bat.


Who say he wasn't? It's what the symbol represent, is not a bad thing, but is not inconsequent, it matters. the fact that Jason use that symbol in his chest has importance. It ties him to Batman, regardless what Starfire says in the book. That's my point.

About the bat I would conced that Jason use a red bat, different to others red bats?

I

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Who say he wasn't? It's what the symbol represent, is not a bad thing, but is not inconsequent, it matters. the fact that Jason use that symbol in his chest has importance. It ties him to Batman, regardless what Starfire says in the book. That's my point.
> 
> About the bat I would conced that Jason use a red bat, different to others red bats?
> 
> I


My point is that Jason would still be a Bat regardless of the symbol and he doesn't need the symbol to identify himself as such. It's a nice visual that helps with that connection sure but it's really not necessary at all. He was still connected to the Bat and the Bat mythos when he was sporting no symbol at all in UTRH.

----------


## Rakiduam

If they had used symbol in UTRH it would have ruined the suspense.

I guess the new 52 wanted remind everybody or make a statement of Jason being in family, or they just wanted put red somewhere because red is cool.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

GOG I LOVED THE LAST ISSUE OF RHATO! I wish Crux and Rose would've been there earlier.It's such a complete team now.So bad ass!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I guess the new 52 wanted remind everybody or make a statement of Jason being in family, or they just wanted put red somewhere because red is cool.


Um, that is EXACTLY what happened, although it wasn't "because Red is cool" it was to give all the Robins a thematic connection.

I have to wonder if you actually read the books.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I don't understand how after  absolutely NO ONE giving importance to the emblem in story and even Lobdell outright saying (through Kori) that Jason isn't defined by what he wears or who he knows. People STILL gets hung on it.


I'm not hung over it.I just feel like it's senseless to wear.He also said he was never big on the theatrics of costumes.But oh well,I've gotten used to it now.I still wouldn't mind if he lost it though.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'm not hung over it.I just feel like it's senseless to wear.He also said he was never big on the theatrics of costumes.But oh well,I've gotten used to it now.I still wouldn't mind if he lost it though.





> My point is that Jason would still be a Bat regardless of the symbol and he doesn't need the symbol to identify himself as such. It's a nice visual that helps with that connection sure but it's really not necessary at all. He was still connected to the Bat and the Bat mythos when he was sporting no symbol at all in UTRH.


Which is why I feel he doesn't need it, and why it just looks forced. Dick and Tim are loyal to Bruce, but they don't strutting around with a "hey I'm wearing half a batman suit" logo.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Um, that is EXACTLY what happened, although it wasn't "because Red is cool" it was to give all the Robins a thematic connection.


 :Confused:  That gives the symbol a even bigger meaning that the one you insist it doesn't have. I heted that they put Nightwing in red for the reason. They don't want people to forget they are in a way forever sidekicks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That gives the symbol a even bigger meaning that the one you insist it doesn't have. I heted that they put Nightwing in red for the reason. They don't want people to forget they are in a way forever sidekicks.


You're mixing marketing reasons with in story ones.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> You're mixing marketing reasons with in story ones.


It's still a stupid reason. I didn't read Nightwing, but I'm pretty sure they eventually had him stop wearing red. Even if they didn't, he's not wearing red now, but green. Regardless with how involved these guys are in Bruce's problems, we don't need a huge red neon sign on Jason's chest that tells us he works for Batman/is a member of his orphan army; we know this. 

So yeah, whether it's story, or marketing purposes, the design is forced, and unneeded. Similar to when they had Jason wear a helmet and cape similar to Joker's RH costume. We know he stole the persona from Joker, but he doesn't need that helmet, or cape, as if to as say " remember this from before?!". We don't need a giant red bat on Jason's chest to know he works with Batman sometimes.

You talked about him being his own guy, and not being in Bats's shadow, yet you defend this forced design that only serves to remind us that he was, and (for the foreseeable future) will always be a robin.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's still a stupid reason. I didn't read Nightwing, but I'm pretty sure they eventually had him stop wearing red. Even if they didn't, he's not wearing red now, but green. Regardless with how involved these guys are in Bruce's problems, we don't need a huge red neon sign on Jason's chest that tells us he works for Batman/is a member of his orphan army; we know this. 
> 
> So yeah, whether it's story, or marketing purposes, the design is forced, and unneeded. Similar to when they had Jason wear a helmet and cape similar to Joker's RH costume. We know he stole the persona from Joker, but he doesn't need that helmet, or cape, as if to as say " remember this from before?!". We don't need a giant red bat on Jason's chest to know he works with Batman sometimes.
> 
> You talked about him being his own guy, and not being in Bats's shadow, yet you defend this forced design that only serves to remind us that he was, and (for the foreseeable future) will always be a robin.


During all the time Dick used the Nightwing persona on the N52 he wore red. This fas fact was weaved by Lobdell into the in story explanation for the change since Jason's armor was one of Dick's.

Jason does need a symbol if DC wants to keep him as a comercially viable character and well, it seems to me that only you guys are the ones that think the design is un needed and forced. DC is pushing it as Jason's _de facto_ look on all the merchandise he has and a quick glance over fan produced work shows that everyone's incredibly happy with the design. While most of the time they use the Pre N52 design for all the other Robins, Jason is consistently depicted with the Rocafort's design.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Personally, I like the Rocafort design much better than any of his other previous designs. I like that it's visually distinctive from the previous ones and the red bat symbol just makes it clear to other characters in the DCU that he is sanctioned by Batman. Neither Dick or Tim need that visual because neither of them are "black sheep". I agree that old readers may not need the visual but I believe that a new reader might and that the other characters within the DCU do need it as a reminder.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> It's still a stupid reason. I didn't read Nightwing, but I'm pretty sure they eventually had him stop wearing red. Even if they didn't, he's not wearing red now, but green. Regardless with how involved these guys are in Bruce's problems, we don't need a huge red neon sign on Jason's chest that tells us he works for Batman/is a member of his orphan army; we know this. 
> 
> So yeah, whether it's story, or marketing purposes, the design is forced, and unneeded. Similar to when they had Jason wear a helmet and cape similar to Joker's RH costume. We know he stole the persona from Joker, but he doesn't need that helmet, or cape, as if to as say " remember this from before?!". We don't need a giant red bat on Jason's chest to know he works with Batman sometimes.
> 
> You talked about him being his own guy, and not being in Bats's shadow, yet you defend this forced design that only serves to remind us that he was, and (for the foreseeable future) will always be a robin.


I think if they wanted him to have a symbol so bad they could've been a little more creative.If I walked down the street in a t-shiit of a red Bat symbol most people aren't gonna think Jason Todd.I didn't even think the reasons Lobdell gave him wearing for wearing the bat symbol was a good one.If this is DC's way of marketing Jason they made a poor decision in my opinion.Jason is my favorite guy from DC but him wearing a Batman's symbol on his chest makes no sense charater wise.Business wise,I guess so.I've gotten used to it anyways.

----------


## godisawesome

The Arkham Knight design for Red Hood uses what could be called a  scarred bird sigil positioned and designed in mockery of the Bat symbol. I kind of like that.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> The Arkham Knight design for Red Hood uses what could be called a  scarred bird sigil positioned and designed in mockery of the Bat symbol. I kind of like that.


I like that.

----------


## oasis1313

> I like that.


The mockery look is very much more like Jason would have, instead of being a good little stooge like the others.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Scarred Bird?

I'm seeing the art that came with the DC Multiverse figure and is virtually identical to N52's Jason's emblem. The only difference is that this version lacks the Bat-ears.

By the way:

http://www.gamestop.com/collectibles...clusive/118019

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Scarred Bird?
> 
> I'm seeing the art that came with the DC Multiverse figure and is virtually identical to N52's Jason's emblem. The only difference is that this version lacks the Bat-ears.
> 
> By the way:
> 
> http://www.gamestop.com/collectibles...clusive/118019


At least it's not a bat. However, still, a mockery of a bird symbol, or even a bat symbol, would fit his personality more, and it's more representative of the character IMO.

----------


## Aioros22

> That gives the symbol a even bigger meaning that the one you insist it doesn't have. I heted that they put Nightwing in red for the reason. They don't want people to forget they are in a way forever sidekicks.


Marketing 101. 

Every super related character wears the logo and/or the colors in some shape or form. Jason is part of the Bat group, hence the logo. I think some of you are missing perhaps one of the story twists of Jason not being defined by what he wears. Wearing the logo or not *doesn`t* make him more of a soldier that he already is at heart (discounting acting like a lunatic pre-reboot) or will always be. 

How much of a soldier he is? He gets called when something big happens (always and with pretty much no exception save one instance that ended being big anyway).  That`s the geist of it. He`s the lone wolf of the gang that shows up when sh!t snaps. He sometimes gets in touch, but it`s not the norm for him, so he does so usually in the aftermaths of said situations. But as Alfred said to him, the Manor is also a home for him, no matter what Bruce claims. 

Jason wearing the band can be interpretated in many forms, given his character. It`s a bit of a slap in the face (think Cusak playing "In Your Eyes" by the window - which is not a romantic scene as many believe, in the movie "Say Anything - it`s actually about defiance) it`s a bit of dark humor ("I was once one in a merry band until someone killed me") but it`s also, and I truly see it written on scenes, about respect. And here is where Kori`s words ring true. Jason outgrowing prior rages or obesessions about Gotham and Bruce, includes him accepting (and even being okay) that once he was happy in the Manor, even if today he grew past it. It`s accepting and respecting the person he was, despite what happened.

That`s one of the differences now. By not being angry anymore, Jason moves on without shunning his past. 

By the way, not only did Dick wear the blue/red, his logo design was supposed to emulate the bat simbol on his chest and shoulders. I thought this was well known by now. 

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ing_by_89g.png
http://www.dadsbigplan.com/wp-conten...-nightwing.jpg

Think Goku standardly wearing the Kame symbol on his back despite not being a student anymore. It`s visual marketing. 

and hey, the Hood is more well known by his helmet and jacket design anyway

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Scarred Bird?
> 
> I'm seeing the art that came with the DC Multiverse figure and is virtually identical to N52's Jason's emblem. The only difference is that this version lacks the Bat-ears.
> 
> By the way:
> 
> http://www.gamestop.com/collectibles...clusive/118019


I ordered the figure last week.It's awesome.I'd like him to where that outfit regularly.I like the hoodie a lot.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> At least it's not a bat. However, still, a mockery of a bird symbol, or even a bat symbol, would fit his personality more, and it's more representative of the character IMO.


I would agree with that as well

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Better look at the figure



Interesting that there's absolutely no showing of his face, potential spoiler?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

He appears to be wearing a red helmet underneath the red hood, if the other figures are to be believed:

----------


## AJpyro

> He appears to be wearing a red helmet underneath the red hood, if the other figures are to be believed:


He looks like a quarian.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He appears to be wearing a red helmet underneath the red hood, if the other figures are to be believed:


That is exactly because is interesting. They didn't have any issue to show the helmet on the Mattel figure, why shroud his face like that on the DC Collectibles version?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And hey, my review for RHATO 38 finally went up

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VOvmTPmG91Y

----------


## Abishai100

"A new Red Hood appears in the _Batman: Under the Red Hood_ storyline running through Batman comics, written by Judd Winick. Jason Todd, the former Robin killed by the Joker in _Batman: A Death in the Family_, is revealed to be resurrected as the new Red Hood. His debut culminates in a fateful confrontation with those he feels have wronged him. He beats the Joker with a crowbar (mirroring the way the Joker had tortured him before killing him with a bomb) and later kidnaps him. The new Red Hood assumes control over various gangs in Gotham City and starts a one-man war against Black Mask's criminal empire. He actively tries to cleanse the city of corruption, such as the illegal drug trade and gang violence, but in a violent, antiheroic way. He eventually comes to blows against Batman and other heroes allies, including the new Robin (Tim Drake), Onyx and Green Arrow" (source of summary: Wikipedia).


This is a very satisfying abstract of the development of Red Hood and how Jason Todd turned from Robin into the Red Hood.

I like the Joker story about Red Hood activities as well (i.e., in _Batman: The Killing Joke_), but Jason Todd's 'circuitous involvement' with the Red Hood gang I think best captures the idea of 'vigilantism tightropes.'

The confrontation between Red Hood and Black Mask is both eerie and dizzying --- but hey, that's Gotham.






 :EEK!: 

Batman: Under the Red Hood

----------


## oasis1313

I think Jason should be the "black sheep" of the family and regard them ALL as wusses who don't have the guts to get the job done.

----------


## AJpyro

> "A new Red Hood appears in the _Batman: Under the Red Hood_ storyline running through Batman comics, written by Judd Winick. Jason Todd, the former Robin killed by the Joker in _Batman: A Death in the Family_, is revealed to be resurrected as the new Red Hood. His debut culminates in a fateful confrontation with those he feels have wronged him. He beats the Joker with a crowbar (mirroring the way the Joker had tortured him before killing him with a bomb) and later kidnaps him. The new Red Hood assumes control over various gangs in Gotham City and starts a one-man war against Black Mask's criminal empire. He actively tries to cleanse the city of corruption, such as the illegal drug trade and gang violence, but in a violent, antiheroic way. He eventually comes to blows against Batman and other heroes allies, including the new Robin (Tim Drake), Onyx and Green Arrow" (source of summary: Wikipedia).
> 
> 
> This is a very satisfying abstract of the development of Red Hood and how Jason Todd turned from Robin into the Red Hood.
> 
> I like the Joker story about Red Hood activities as well (i.e., in _Batman: The Killing Joke_), but Jason Todd's 'circuitous involvement' with the Red Hood gang I think best captures the idea of 'vigilantism tightropes.'
> 
> The confrontation between Red Hood and Black Mask is both eerie and dizzying --- but hey, that's Gotham.
> 
> ...


One of the best DCA movies I have ever seen.

----------


## phonogram12

> I think Jason should be the "black sheep" of the family and regard them ALL as wusses who don't have the guts to get the job done.


I'm really glad this isn't the direction they decided to go in with the character.

----------


## The Kid

> One of the best DCA movies I have ever seen.


Agreed. I'd love if they did a live action adaptation

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Agreed. I'd love if they did a live action adaptation


I heard rumours that Ben Affleck himself is a big fan of the storyline as well. One can dream.

----------


## oasis1313

> One of the best DCA movies I have ever seen.


I couldn't watch the opening of it, too upsetting.

----------


## phonogram12

> One of the best DCA movies I have ever seen.


Yeah, I was actually pretty impressed with the beginning. Just the fact that they were willing to go that far took a lot of balls on DC's part.

----------


## PopCultureArt

Red Hood, for me, is one of the best anti-heroes in DC. Mainly because he's in the Batman Universe but hey, this is an appreciation thread. 

For me Red Hood is just complete rebel, no fancy Morales to go by and just kicks a**.

I'm probably gonna draw Red Hood (Arkham Knight Ver.) as a Digital File and see if anyone of you Red Hood Lovers would like to have him!

~Cameron

----------


## The Kid

> I heard rumours that Ben Affleck himself is a big fan of the storyline as well. One can dream.


No way?? Do you have a link where he said something like that? That would be incredible!

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> No way?? Do you have a link where he said something like that? That would be incredible!


No. No link. Sorry. Someone over Youtube said that according to his sources.

----------


## AJpyro

I'm gonna bit the bullet. I'm gonna get the Tynion run. I shall collect the best and...not great parts of RHATO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Red Hood swag from Arkham Knight has started to show up on Spencer's Gifts

http://www.spencersonline.com/trends...RedHood_3_2_15

Their website says its exclusive to them though.

There are more things not listed on their site like keychains or phone cases.

----------


## Kurisu

> Red Hood swag from Arkham Knight has started to show up on Spencer's Gifts
> 
> http://www.spencersonline.com/trends...RedHood_3_2_15
> 
> Their website says its exclusive to them though.
> 
> There are more things not listed on their site like keychains or phone cases.


What a time to be alive.

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, I'm loving the scarred bird design they gave him in Arkham Knight. I'm going to keep calling it that because it usually looks rougher than the rest of the Batfamily's symbols.

I like how it seems to point up while Nightwing's points down.

----------


## oasis1313

I think Jason should be the roughest of the Batty Bunch.  Part of his charm, y'know.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Red Hood swag from Arkham Knight has started to show up on Spencer's Gifts
> 
> http://www.spencersonline.com/trends...RedHood_3_2_15
> 
> Their website says its exclusive to them though.
> 
> There are more things not listed on their site like keychains or phone cases.


This hat is surprisingly nice.

Sort of thing I could imagine Roy wearing to annoy Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This hat is surprisingly nice.
> 
> Sort of thing I could imagine Roy wearing to annoy Jason.


I like this one better

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'm gonna bit the bullet. I'm gonna get the Tynion run. I shall collect the best and...not great parts of RHATO.


Get Red Hood: Lost Days, too.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Get Red Hood: Lost Days, too.


Here, Here. I thought that mini series was awesome! To me whenever Winnick writes Jason Todd it's pure gold in my eyes.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Red Hood swag from Arkham Knight has started to show up on Spencer's Gifts
> 
> http://www.spencersonline.com/trends...RedHood_3_2_15
> 
> Their website says its exclusive to them though.
> 
> There are more things not listed on their site like keychains or phone cases.


I can't wait to get some of those. 




> Here, Here. I thought that mini series was awesome! To me whenever Winnick writes Jason Todd it's pure gold in my eyes.


I liked the mini for the most part myself though I could have done without the ending.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason shouldn't be wearing a bat on his chest.  It makes him look weak.

----------


## Starchild

Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.

----------


## AJpyro

> Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


Might get that vibe but people here mostly like Jason.

----------


## phonogram12

> Newcomer to this thread.


Welcome!




> There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely.


Agreed. I love the fact that Jason's not a complete jerk, anymore.




> And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


I can't wait for her solo, personally.

----------


## AJpyro

> Get Red Hood: Lost Days, too.


S$%t. How could I forget that? Man I'm off today.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


Welcome and no you're not the only one who loves RHatO. I love it as well and think its been a pretty fun title. It's also gone a long way toward making all three of them stronger characters. The title actually got me to care about Starfire for the first time ever and I like the way the three of them play off each other.I also like that this title can jump from one genre to another and that it has a bit of balance to it as you say. I'm looking forward to the next series and because I've gotten to like Kori through Outlaws I'll be giving her solo a try.

----------


## oasis1313

Red Hood could carry a SOLO book.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


I think a few things happened with regard to RHATO.  First, lots of people just really, really don't like Scott Lobdell for all sorts of reasons, and that to a certain extent spills over into his titles.  Secondly, Tynion's run was profoundly unsuccessful and readership dropped off sharply and continued to hemorrhage even after Lobdell returned.   Thirdly, given the low and declining readership, that set off a vigorous debate about what went wrong and what to do next that became passionate and revealed that people have profoundly different views about Jason Todd and his place in the DCU and, especially, the BatVerse.

----------


## Csjbo08

> Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


You're not the only one, I'm pretty sure no one one Earth loves the title more than Dark Tzitzimine. While it is a polarizing series and never really shaped up to what DC wanted the title to be, RHATO has a VERY passionate fanbase especially compared to the books it sells close to, and that I respect.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> I think a few things happened with regard to RHATO.  First, lots of people just really, really don't like Scott Lobdell for all sorts of reasons, and that to a certain extent spills over into his titles.  Secondly, Tynion's run was profoundly unsuccessful and readership dropped off sharply and continued to hemorrhage even after Lobdell returned.   Thirdly, given the low and declining readership, that set off a vigorous debate about what went wrong and what to do next that became passionate and revealed that people have profoundly different views about Jason Todd and his place in the DCU and, especially, the BatVerse.


Yeah, the series had two major moments that hit it bad as far as sales (and quality) go. 

1- Rocafort leaving. I think the series was supposed to have uh... the guy who did the first issue of Morrison's Mister Miracle, which would've been great, but he dropped out last minute. Silva came on in the end and did a pretty good job, though. 
2- Tynion coming on. Virtually everything this guy has touched turned into a trainwreck when Snyder's not there as well, so I'm really not looking forward to him handling all of my favourite magical characters after Convergence, especially John.

----------


## phonogram12

> Welcome and no you're not the only one who loves RHatO. I love it as well and think its been a pretty fun title. It's also gone a long way toward making all three of them stronger characters.


Especially Jason. I never cared for him even a little before his regular interaction with Roy and Kori. They bring out the best in him, IMHO.




> I'm looking forward to the next series and because I've gotten to like Kori through Outlaws I'll be giving her solo a try.


Me, too!

----------


## Starchild

> You're not the only one, I'm pretty sure no one one Earth loves the title more than Dark Tzitzimine. While it is a polarizing series and never really shaped up to what DC wanted the title to be, *RHATO has a VERY passionate fanbase especially compared to the books it sells close to, and that I respect.*



What really made me pay attention to the title was the massive support on Tumblr. The power of social media is not to be overlooked.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What really made me pay attention to the title was the massive support on Tumblr. The power of social media is not to be overlooked.


Now that's interesting. Tumblr being Tumblr is one of the hugest and loudest detracttors of the book. For one post praising it, you get 10 bashing it.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Newcomer to this thread. I was browsing through here and it seems like everyone hates RHATO. Am I really the only one that absolutely loves this series? I think it's a fun title. There's a balance between gritty, comedy & action. Roy and Jason play off of each other nicely. And I also feel like that New 52 Starfire is stronger (not physically) than her pre-52 self. The christmas issue was well done.


Welcome my friend. I LOVE the book. Jason Todd has been one of my favorite characters since I was a kid. I actually got a whoopin for calling the number to save his life. You gotta ask permission first lol. You are not the only one that LOVES this series. It has had it's lows, but what series hasn't. Glad to hear you're digging it. Jason Todd is an amazing character and I have every comic he has ever appeared in. They are only 3 characters I like more than Jason Todd and too see how far he has come really really makes me proud.

----------


## oasis1313

I like it best when Lobdell is writing it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

GET HYPE



RED HOOD/ARSENAL #1
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DENIS MEDRI
Cover by HOWARD PORTER
1:25 Variant cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
On sale JUNE 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
These brothers in arms face off against incredible odds while burning their way through the underbelly of the DC Universe – and it’s only a matter of time until they get gunned down in return!

----------


## Starchild

:Big Grin:  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

Holy S**t!!!!!

And ha! The hat is still there. *sticks out tongue*

----------


## Tony Stark

> GET HYPE
> 
> 
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
> ...


WOW! This looks glorious!

----------


## AJpyro

> GET HYPE
> 
> 
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
> ...


Seems like they're going Red and Green for primaries. Nothing wrong with that.

And now that its just a buddy cop show, I hope the interactions are even better than ever. Also can't wait to see the supporting cast.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I do find funny Jason getting an actual Red Hood. They really want to solidify as brand I guess.

Now just ditch the stupid expressive helmet and we are golden.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> GET HYPE
> 
> 
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
> ...


Now that looks wonderful to me. Can't wait to see what's next for our boys. 




> I do find funny Jason getting an actual Red Hood. They really want to solidify as brand I guess.
> 
> Now just ditch the stupid expressive helmet and we are golden.


Until you said something I didn't notice the hood but still it looks nice. Also I like the expressive helmet much better than the open eye hole version some artists have used in the past. That one was just awful.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh, I nearly forgot. My review for issue 39

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....l#.VQFBCPmG91Y

And looking at next week releases on Comixology, I noticed that Derenick is listed as the artist for 40. Dissapointing to be honest, I was expecting for Silva to close the series with a bang.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

My only complaint is he still has the silly bat emblem on his chest.And I am vastly bothered that Batman was somehow able to disable Jason's weapons from operating.It's another reason of why I hate when teams up with Batman.Other than that Red Hood/Arsenal is gonna rock!Can't wait!

----------


## Aioros22

> You're not the only one, I'm pretty sure no one one Earth loves the title more than Dark Tzitzimine. While it is a polarizing series and* never really shaped up to what DC wanted the title to be*, RHATO has a VERY passionate fanbase especially compared to the books it sells close to, and that I respect.


What do you believe they wanted the title to be?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> My only complaint is he still has the silly bat emblem on his chest.And I am vastly bothered that Batman was somehow able to disable Jason's weapons from operating.It's another reason of why I hate when teams up with Batman.Other than that Red Hood/Arsenal is gonna rock!Can't wait!


Batman didn't disable Jason's weapons in Eternal though someone else did it. Having said that though I agree that it was stupid. Jason isn't like the rest of the Bats and it's not like he gets his gear from Waynetech or Batman for that matter. I found it to be completely unbelievable seeing as how we've never seen him even get any type of gear from Batman. I think Roy mentioned once that he had been nicking arrows from Ollie's company but Jason never mentions anything of the sort. Blocking coms is one thing and I could have accepted if the tech in his helmet had gone haywire maybe but not his guns. That the same as saying his All Blade's or Damian's katanna went haywire in my opinion.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

With DC's new policy about canon and continuity I think any mischaracterization caused by Eternal will be ignored completely by Lobdell. Because seriously, Eternal's writers really don't have the slightest idea about writing Jason.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Batman didn't disable Jason's weapons in Eternal though someone else did it. Having said that though I agree that it was stupid. Jason isn't like the rest of the Bats and it's not like he gets his gear from Waynetech or Batman for that matter. I found it to be completely unbelievable seeing as how we've never seen him even get any type of gear from Batman. I think Roy mentioned once that he had been nicking arrows from Ollie's company but Jason never mentions anything of the sort. Blocking coms is one thing and I could have accepted if the tech in his helmet had gone haywire maybe but not his guns. That the same as saying his All Blade's or Damian's katanna went haywire in my opinion.


Okay,good.I was todl by a friend Batman shut them off somehow.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

On my city's con I got this sketch done by Legendary Starlord's artist, Paco Medina.



What do you think?

----------


## Celgress

I've always had a soft stop for gritty, deeply flawed characters who in spite of it all try to do the right thing. So yes I'm a fan of Jason Todd aka Red Hood.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Who is the woman in the pic?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Who is the woman in the pic?


Daidouji, a character from the Senran Kagura series of videogames

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

She's pretty hot

----------


## AJpyro

Neat. So now I know that RHATO reached 40 issues. That's awesome. Its reached more than I thought it would during all these events and such.

Now I just need to collect all 8 tpbs and it'll be good.

----------


## scary harpy

Any news on the villains RedHood/Arsenal will face in their new series?

They could easily inherit some under-used batvillians.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Any news on the villains RedHood/Arsenal will face in their new series?
> 
> They could easily inherit some under-used batvillians.


I don't think anythings been said about that yet.

----------


## oasis1313

> Daidouji, a character from the Senran Kagura series of videogames


Is this woman carrying around a haunch of meat?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is this woman carrying around a haunch of meat?


Yes

Although only on that art

----------


## oasis1313

Those shoes SUCK!

----------


## Abishai100

The turn that Jason Todd makes from Robin into the Red Hood really suggests that one of the social spores plaguing Batman's brooding Gotham City is 'happiness distrust.'

In this ironic way, Jason is really a representative of Gotham's 'fragility' perhaps even more so than the Joker himself...






 :EEK!: 



red-hood.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

There is nothing fragile about a guy who can claw his way out of a six-foot grave.

----------


## phonogram12

> Jason is really a representative of Gotham's 'fragility' perhaps even more so than the Joker himself...


I can absolutely see this.

----------


## oasis1313

Tim Drake is "fragile" and very, very "precious."  Jason is not.  He was a real man when he was in diapers.  Jason rocks.

----------


## Abishai100

Jason Todd is under-appreciated and under-used and certainly he should have made some kind of appearance in one of the Batman films made by Hollywood (USA).

Jason's turn from Robin into the Red Hood represents a real Gotham City fixation on criminality ominousness.

I'd like to see Jadon Todd (perhaps as the Red Hood) take a heroic turn and take on a really creep of a villain such as Victor Zsasz in a Batman Hollywood (USA) film (perhaps directed by someone like Bryan Singer and starring an entertaining actor such as Ashton Kutcher portraying Jason).

There's nothing wrong with a little bit of 'fight club' drama...




 :EEK!: 

Victor Zsasz

zsasz.jpg

jason.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

Ashton Kutcher?  'Way too comedic and easy-going.  Need somebody edgy.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> Tim Drake is "fragile" and very, very "precious."  Jason is not.  He was a real man when he was in diapers.  Jason rocks.


I agree!!!!!!

----------


## phonogram12

Jason represents Gotham's fragility the same way a lot of other Gotham's heroes do. He's a victim of bad circumstances much in the same way pretty much the entirety of Gotham is. Bruce, Dick, and Tim all turned out stronger for it as did Jason.

Jason isn't some uni-dimensional, muscle bound meat head, teeth-grinding Punisher wannabe (or at least he shouldn't be when written well).

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Hmm...

Having just re-read the awesome _Killing Joke_, just finished reading Remender's _Rage of Ultron_, and seeing as we've still yet to get the Nu52 Death in the Family, and Under the Hood, story arcs...I think it'd be a really awesome idea if we got both those stories retold in an OGN. I also think that someone in the vein of a Rick Remender, or the man himself, should write it. Leading up to DitF, and during UtH, Jason is in a very, very dark place. I think an author, like Remender, could really delve into the ugliness of Jason's insatiable anger, the cynical nature of Jason, and the ugly moments of his life. We'd also get a truly visceral depiction of the Gotham underworld (I'm looking at works such as Deadly Class, and Last American Crime). The Killing Joke influence comes in the form of making the whole situation with Jason kind of a recreation of what he tried to pull off with Jim Gordon, and Babs. Only this time, the point is to make Jason give in to madness (a combination of the Joker having a seemingly direct hand in screwing up Jason's family, and life, and the torture of both Jason, and his mother, in that abandoned warehouse); to prove that despite Batman's best efforts, everyone is susceptible to insanity that life's unfairness can bring about at times. In my mind, this is when Joker figures out Batman's identity; as he sees that Jason is the boy he took some much pleasure in f***ing with in the past. To him, it's two for the price of one. I'd also have him record the days, or weeks, in which he both physically, emotionally, and mentally, tortured Jason (and his mom), and show it to Batman after the funeral (a different take, but still call back to TKJ, and the camera). I wonder how Bruce would rationalize his restraint towards the joker, if he'd seen what Joker had done to Jason, as well as knew how influential the madman was in Jason's life. In the end, Jason does break, and gives into the madness...but not the madness the Joker was necessarily aiming for. It'd be birth of the detached, cold, calculating, obsessive, hateful and murderous Jason that would eventually don the Red Hood. He agrees with the Joker that world is cruel, but, instead of seeing the "funny side", he decides that he has to change to fit it: he going to kill everything that's screwing up Gotham, but he promises to kill the Joker. I can see him smirking as he stares a timer on the bomb, in defiance, not in least seeing it as his end, but as a beginning. The "madness" that Ra's believes the Lazarus Pit, that he blames Talia for, would in actuality be madness that Jason died with; that the Joker successfully brought out of the boy.

I'd also keep the mother/big sister-son/little brother dynamic that Talia and Jason had in Lost Days. The two of them feeling sort of bond together in their wanting of something they never had, or couldn't receive, but in the end both intentionally denying themselves the sort of "messed up" kinship they may have held in favor of their own ambitions, both of which are centered around a grudge against Bruce. 

Yes, what I'm pitching is a VERY dark book, but I think it would perfectly match the tone necessary for those two (or three, if Lost Days counts as a story on it's own) story arcs. Also,

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Jason represents Gotham's fragility the same way a lot of other Gotham's heroes do. He's a victim of bad circumstances much in the same way pretty much the entirety of Gotham is. Bruce, Dick, and Tim all turned out stronger for it as did Jason.


Yup, but, unlike the other 3, Jason actually toed, if not out right crossed, the despair horizon event. He's the embodiment that Batman's moral rationale that killing would make them "just like them (the villains)" doesn't hold true, or at least it's something that can eventually be overcome. This makes Jason potentially the best candidate to be the next Batman, or, at the very least, be a good mentor for a young sidekick, as he's the only one (besides Cass) that's lived on the other side; he knows how despair feels, he definitely knows how it feels to have that madness clawing at your mind, and how it can drive your every move...but he also knows how to overcome it. 

That's why Jason is IMO, easily the most interesting character of the Bat-family (other than Cass; she's a close 2nd). The others don't understand why Jason could fall from grace, because they lived almost ideal lives before tragedy struck them. Jason's whole life is a damn tragedy.

----------


## phonogram12

I honestly don't think it was worth the lives he took in the meantime. But that could just be me. I still prefer Tim as the most likely to pick up Bruce's mantle (if not Cass, that is). And just to clarify, pre-52 Tim.

edit: you know what? Post-52 I'd say that most of the former Robins are about on equal footing in terms of taking over Bruce's mantle one day. That said, as honored as Jason would be with the offer, I don't think he'd want it. He seems to be doing exactly what he wants now and wouldn't be interested in all the strings that come along with the role. At this point in time as far as understanding it is concerned, I don't think Damien gets it yet. He seems to only understand it on a very superficial level. Despite the fact that he's kept himself more in check than he has in the past lately, there's still that inclination to brutalize his opponents more than is necessary. He still seems more interested in punishing evil doers than saving lives, and despite the fact that's exactly the kind of image Bruce likes to project, he's definitely more interested in saving lives. Then there's that sense of entitlement he still clings to.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

HOLY ****!



I NEED IT!

----------


## Aioros22

Finally Rockafort coming to life http://i.imgur.com/GQlM3bt.png

----------


## RedQueen

I'm just thinking, in regards to Jay appearing in movies, I actually think it might be a possibility. Considering Dark Knight Returns is what Zack Snyder is heavily inspired by for the new Batman, and one of the sources mentioned for Bruce's angst in DKR is Jason's death, I think we might get a possibility of Under the Red Hood storyline in a couple of years. And it would be a good chance to utilize the Joker again cause audiences love the the Joker and the studio knows this. 

I think Snyder might condense the Batfamily history and make Jason the first Robin (who would be deceased prior to BvS) and make Carrie Kelley (who's rumored to be possibly played by Jena Malone) the second Robin.

These are just some rambling thoughts, but it would be cool to see the Under the Red Hood storyline because it does have some insanely powerful moments.

----------


## Csjbo08

> I'm just thinking, in regards to Jay appearing in movies, I actually think it might be a possibility. Considering Dark Knight Returns is what Zack Snyder is heavily inspired by for the new Batman, and one of the sources mentioned for Bruce's angst in DKR is Jason's death, I think we might get a possibility of Under the Red Hood storyline in a couple of years. And it would be a good chance to utilize the Joker again cause audiences love the the Joker and the studio knows this. 
> 
> I think Snyder might condense the Batfamily history and make Jason the first Robin (who would be deceased prior to BvS) and make Carrie Kelley (who's rumored to be possibly played by Jena Malone) the second Robin.
> 
> These are just some rambling thoughts, but it would be cool to see the Under the Red Hood storyline because it does have some insanely powerful moments.


It's funny that you say that as the hot rumor coming from Latino Review is that Jason Todd as Red Hood will become a priority character for WB.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'm just thinking, in regards to Jay appearing in movies, I actually think it might be a possibility. Considering Dark Knight Returns is what Zack Snyder is heavily inspired by for the new Batman, and one of the sources mentioned for Bruce's angst in DKR is Jason's death, I think we might get a possibility of Under the Red Hood storyline in a couple of years. And it would be a good chance to utilize the Joker again cause audiences love the the Joker and the studio knows this. 
> 
> I think Snyder might condense the Batfamily history and make Jason the first Robin (who would be deceased prior to BvS) and make Carrie Kelley (who's rumored to be possibly played by Jena Malone) the second Robin.
> 
> These are just some rambling thoughts, but it would be cool to see the Under the Red Hood storyline because it does have some insanely powerful moments.


The story also serves to make Batman more human (in that he failed as mentor, and father), it brings into question the morality of having a sidekick, it serves as a time the Joker "beat" Batman, could serve as a reason why Bruce retired, it brings into question about the "thou shalt not kill" morals (Batman will confront Supes about it on his killing of Zod, but then will have this very personal incident beat him to his knees with the question again), and it will certainly have people talking about it like people did with the Nolan movies (assuming the new, potentially Affleck directed Batman movies are just as good).

It's really hit the dark, and realistic, tone that WB/DC wants to hit with their new cinematic universe, and set it COMPLETELY apart from the MCU.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> It's funny that you say that as the hot rumor coming from Latino Review is that Jason Todd as Red Hood will become a priority character for WB.


Hopefully that rumor turns out to be true, because Jason has been the Robin that's certainly not gotten the love he should be getting. Not only the most interesting Robin (very easily, imo), but, as I've already said, a character that brings a lot interesting dynamics to Batman's character (I'd say only Damian, and Cass, bring the same amount of stuff to the table).

----------


## Csjbo08

I might be in the minority in saying this, but I think that the actor WB was in talks with to play Nightwing (which ended up being Lex Luthor) Adam Driver, would be a great Jason Todd/Red Hood.   I know he's not the best looking actor out there, but I never interpreted Jason as the pretty boy Robin.  Driver certainly has the presence to play him.

----------


## RedQueen

Not to say the other Robins don't have an in depth relationship with Bruce, but it's Jason and Bruce's relationship that's where the meaty stuff is and more specifically the Joker (whom audiences just love watching) and WB could really milk a lot of drama out of it. Just story telling wise to sit through a movie of it would be great entertainment and a good batman story.

Though off topic, I do wonder whether Jena Malone might be playing Barbara Gordon, cause that was another rumor, rather than Carrie because Barbara does have history with the Joker too. Just along that line of thought that the Batman movie verse would utilise the the Joker. Like Barbara and Jason would probably represent two different reactions from traumatic experiences with the Joker.

----------


## Badou

Barbara is already confirmed for being in the Titans TV series. So I'd lean towards Jena still playing Carrie. I don't think Barbara or Dick will be in the movies as it seems DC is trying to separate the two mediums more. Like how they dropped all the Suicide Squad stuff on the TV shows to focus on creating a movie version instead. 

But since Dick's character will be shoved off to the TV universe it does leave Jason wide open to be in the movies. They do seem to want to follow the Dark Knight Returns stuff and in the sequel to that they had Dick become the new Joker. So I could easily see them incorporate Jason into that role, since Dick made no sense, and mixing his death at the Joker's hands with it some. I mean he does become red Hood which is basically taking on a Joker identity. So it fits a lot more.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Except that you know, no one really likes DK Strikes Again.

----------


## phonogram12

> Except that you know, no one really likes DK Strikes Again.


I liked it, but yeah, if no film, television series, or comic ever references it ever again, I can't say I will be all that disappointed.  :Smile:

----------


## Badou

> Except that you know, no one really likes DK Strikes Again.


No, I don't mean they are going to adapt it, but thematically for what they seem to be doing Jason fits a lot better in that Dark Knight Returns style universe.

----------


## Starchild

A solo Red Hood movie doesn't interest me without an archer and an alien.

----------


## Aioros22

> Except that you know, no one really likes DK Strikes Again.


I love it and I feel no shame.

or remorse

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Hopefully the rumors are true

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Mark May 6th on your calendars people

RED HOOD/ARSENAL (Written by Scott Lobdell with Art by Denis Medri)
CONVERGENCE: TITANS #2
Jason and Roy face off against the forces of Kobra!

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> A solo Red Hood movie doesn't interest me without an archer and an alien.


Nah, it would work...if his antagonist was Ra's, and his foil Talia...with a dose of Damian.

Arsenal could fit the tone, but not Starfire.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Mark May 6th on your calendars people
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL (Written by Scott Lobdell with Art by Denis Medri)
> CONVERGENCE: TITANS #2
> Jason and Roy face off against the forces of Kobra!


That is going to be great! One of my all time favorite mini series is JSA vs. Kobra. I'm looking forward to seeing Jason and Roy taking on such a huge and badass terrorist organization. Has Kobra appeared in the new 52 and if they have where? Help a fellow Jason Todd fan out lol.

----------


## K. Jones

I'm really stoked that those two get to tackle Kobra. Not only is it a foe with some real cachet for those two to fight - real good credibility - but I've been annoyed at all the little poseur New 52 terror cults because every time something like that pops up I'm just like ... "ugh ... these guys are crap compared to Kobra. Where's Kobra?"

Perfect foil for them. Good title to bring the new Kobra into the fold with. Win/win situation, basically.

Coming as I have out of a big old re-read of some great comics like Rucka's Checkmate, JSA vs. Kobra, as well as my love of those vintage late-70s, early-80s crossovers where Batman & Aquaman & Ollie had to bust Kobra heads, I'm pretty stoked.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Jason Todd fanart:



http://thewoodenking.deviantart.com/...HOOD-527339560



http://jaydekim.deviantart.com/art/Red-Hood-353707939

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Mark May 6th on your calendars people
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL (Written by Scott Lobdell with Art by Denis Medri)
> CONVERGENCE: TITANS #2
> Jason and Roy face off against the forces of Kobra!


I've been wondering where in the world Kobra has been all this time and I look forward to seeing our boys going up against them. Can't come soon enough for me. 




> Jason Todd fanart:
> 
> 
> 
> http://thewoodenking.deviantart.com/...HOOD-527339560
> 
> 
> 
> http://jaydekim.deviantart.com/art/Red-Hood-353707939


Those are some nice fanart.

----------


## LP22

big love for Jason my favorite Bat charcter
images.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Welp, I'm gonna be poor this end of the year

BATMAN: ARKHAM KNIGHT RED HOOD STATUE
SCULPTED BY MAJID ESMAEILI
From the highly anticipated Batman: Arkham Knight video game from Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment and Rocksteady Studios comes the next intricately detailed statue of the vigilante Red Hood.
Measures Approximately 10.5" Tall
$124.95 US • On Sale November 2015 * Allocations May Occur

----------


## Starchild

So I guess that Jason's redesign is based off of the Arkhamverse costume. They both look so similar.

----------


## Agent Z

Don't know if anyone has already read this, but here's an interesting essay on how Jason often get's unfairly blamed for his death; 
https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2821274.html

----------


## Lazurus33

RHOODA_Cv2_R1.jpg

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #2
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DENIS MEDRI
Cover by HOWARD PORTER
1:25 Variant cover by JONBOY MEYER
On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
How can Red Hood and Arsenal possibly survive an attack of killer mimes? Yeah, you read that right: mimes!

http://www.newsarama.com/24228-dc-s-...ts-part-1.html

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RHOODA_Cv2_R1.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #2
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by JONBOY MEYER
> On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> ...


That looks so awesome.

I'm liking Jason's new duds, definitely inspired by his Arkham Knight appearance

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Welp, I'm gonna be poor this end of the year
> 
> BATMAN: ARKHAM KNIGHT RED HOOD STATUE
> SCULPTED BY MAJID ESMAEILI
> From the highly anticipated Batman: Arkham Knight video game from Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment and Rocksteady Studios comes the next intricately detailed statue of the vigilante Red Hood.
> Measures Approximately 10.5" Tall
> $124.95 US  On Sale November 2015 * Allocations May Occur


I'm really loving this design, but the guns seem a bit much don't ya think? I think a magnum, or revolver, would've fit the tone of this game better...as well as look cooler.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> RHOODA_Cv2_R1.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #2
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by JONBOY MEYER
> On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> ...


I'm looking forward to the issue but that cover is just awful. I don't know if it's the collar or the hood but something about the way Jay's head is sitting on his neck looks off to me. Roy's face looks strange to me as well. I really liked Porter's first cover but this one not so much.

----------


## AJpyro

> RHOODA_Cv2_R1.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #2
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 1:25 Variant cover by JONBOY MEYER
> On sale JULY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> ...


Not a fan of the cover art but seeing Jason and Roy fight Mimes shall be very therapeutic. 

Mimes: the deadliest enemies behind clowns.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not a fan of the cover art but seeing Jason and Roy fight Mimes shall be very therapeutic. 
> 
> Mimes: the deadliest enemies behind clowns.


Pfft. That made me laugh given Jay's history with clowns.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm looking forward to the issue but that cover is just awful. I don't know if it's the collar or the hood but something about the way Jay's head is sitting on his neck looks off to me. Roy's face looks strange to me as well. I really liked Porter's first cover but this one not so much.


Have to agree with you, Porter's style doesn't really mesh well with the tone Lobdell is aiming. And the way he draws Roy only makes me think of this dude



Color scheme and composition are very similar.

Can't wait to see Medri's pencills. He has some very impressive works on his Devianart account

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Have to agree with you, Porter's style doesn't really mesh well with the tone Lobdell is aiming. And the way he draws Roy only makes me think of this dude
> 
> 
> 
> Color scheme and composition are very similar.
> 
> Can't wait to see Medri's pencills. He has some very impressive works on his Devianart account


I'm looking forward to seeing Medri's pencils myself but you'd think they could find someone decent to do cover work here. I wish Rocafort had the time to do them.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well, they are giving the title special Variant Covers. RHATO never had that luxury.

----------


## Badou

> Welp, I'm gonna be poor this end of the year
> 
> BATMAN: ARKHAM KNIGHT RED HOOD STATUE
> SCULPTED BY MAJID ESMAEILI
> From the highly anticipated Batman: Arkham Knight video game from Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment and Rocksteady Studios comes the next intricately detailed statue of the vigilante Red Hood.
> Measures Approximately 10.5" Tall
> $124.95 US  On Sale November 2015 * Allocations May Occur


This is a great costume. I'd imagine that once the game comes out we will be seeing this costume a lot more in other media.

----------


## Godlike13

> This is a great costume. I'd imagine that once the game comes out we will be seeing this costume a lot more in other media.


Lets hope so...

----------


## LP22

Just heard  Rumors that thay are going to Replace Jason in the new movies with Dick Grayson( I guess Dick's about to Steal Jason's spotlight Again...).

God that's why I Hate DC sometimes.

----------


## Shinomune

> Just heard  Rumors that thay are going to Replace Jason in the new movies with Dick Grayson( I guess Dick's about to Steal Jason's spotlight Again...).
> 
> God that's why I Hate DC sometimes.


What new movies and how can Dick replaces Jason? Dick is going to be a rough Robin/Red Hood?

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Just heard  Rumors that thay are going to Replace Jason in the new movies with Dick Grayson( I guess Dick's about to Steal Jason's spotlight Again...).
> 
> God that's why I Hate DC sometimes.


Yeah it looks like they are replacing/merging Dick's storyline in DKSA with Jason Todd in Under the Red Hood.

----------


## LP22

> yeah it looks like they are replacing/merging dick's storyline in dksa with jason todd in under the red hood.



I heard somewere they are going to make Dick the red hood in the suicide squad movie and There Is a picture in the net  where it shows Dick in a grave.(Maybe Im over thinking things).

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

> I heard somewere they are going to make Dick the red hood in the suicide squad movie and There Is a picture in the net  where it shows Dick in a grave.(Maybe Im over thinking things).


I heard about that too.It sucks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You guys need to chill.

Everything is going now are only rumors, remember when last year Dick was supposedly casted? or the huge conundrum going with GL?

Anything could happen from here until the release of BvS so stop freaking out for nothing.

----------


## Starchild

It sounds like Lobdell will be going with the 'one and done' style with Red Hood/Arsenal. I mean in #1, they'll be facing Kobra! And in #2, it'll be killer mimes.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It sounds like Lobdell will be going with the 'one and done' style with Red Hood/Arsenal. I mean in #1, they'll be facing Kobra! And in #2, it'll be killer mimes.


I wouldn't mind if he did that for a bit. I really enjoyed that aspect of Grayson so seeing another writer doing the same is a nice change of pace. For myself I'm burned out on epic arcs anyway.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

We don't actually know who they are facing on issue 1.

The battle with Kobra is a standalone story meant as sample for the title.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> We don't actually know who they are facing on issue 1.
> 
> The battle with Kobra is a standalone story meant as sample for the title.


That's true enough but we don't really know that whomever they are facing in issue 1 has anything to do with the mimes in issue 2 either or even if the Kobra story is a stand alone story at this point. Some of the sample stories are stand alone ones sure but I think I remember reading something somewhere that said not all of them are following that format so some of them may very well carry over into the next issue. Guess we'll see what happens.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Exactly, issue one well could be a follow up to the Kobra story or be setup for the mimes. As long Lobdell isn't forced into crossovers I'm happy.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Exactly, issue one well could be a follow up to the Kobra story or be setup for the mimes. As long Lobdell isn't forced into crossovers I'm happy.


I'd be happy if they stayed away from crossovers as well though if the Bat Office handles future crossovers like they did the recent Endgame "tie-ins" I'd be okay with that too. At least those were separate issues that didn't disrupt the flow of the main titles involved in any way and I felt that worked much better. The writers involved got to move ahead with their own stories and readers got a bonus issue out of it to boot.

----------


## SpiderWing20

Anybody seen the new Grayson Earth One fan film, this one is centered around Jason here's a link: 

https://youtu.be/t360P-dq8UM

----------


## Aioros22

> Anybody seen the new Grayson Earth One fan film, this one is centered around Jason here's a link: 
> 
> https://youtu.be/t360P-dq8UM


This totally exceeded my expectations. Well written, directed, acted, good background music choices (heck, good sound design all around, good production values..

I`m hooked.

----------


## Prime

So does Jason have a thing for Barbara now?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So does Jason have a thing for Barbara now?


Only when Tynion's writing him

Under Lobdell, Barbara hates Jason so I don't believe is gonna be a factor on RH/Arsenal

----------


## RedQueen

> Only when Tynion's writing him
> 
> Under Lobdell, Barbara hates Jason so I don't believe is gonna be a factor on RH/Arsenal


Yeah I wonder if that story will be swept under the rug. I plead guilty to actually finding the relationship somewhat compelling but it would need a better storyline/focus etc.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Only when Tynion's writing him
> 
> Under Lobdell, Barbara hates Jason so I don't believe is gonna be a factor on RH/Arsenal


It does explain why he "got rid of" Isabel during his time on the title. (I really hated that he did that.) They need to keep him away from Jason IMHO. Nothing good ever comes of it. 




> Yeah I wonder if that story will be swept under the rug. I plead guilty to actually finding the relationship somewhat compelling but it would need a better storyline/focus etc.


I hope it is myself since I found it to be very forced. If it had been made out as Jason having had this teenage crush on Barbara, which is all it appeared to be at first by the flashback, and they had left it at that would have been good. Lots of people have crushes that don't last and I could see Jason having one on Babs at one point. I think they took it a bit to far though.

----------


## joybeans

It comes off as really creepy, too. Seeley had him getting over it, and walking off with his dignity intact, but then Tynion did a 180 and had him obsess over her some more.

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Only when Tynion's writing him
> 
> Under Lobdell, Barbara hates Jason so I don't believe is gonna be a factor on RH/Arsenal


Yeah, Jason making fun of her in that Court tie-in was pretty funny.




> It comes off as really creepy, too. Seeley had him getting over it, and walking off with his dignity intact, but then Tynion did a 180 and had him obsess over her some more.


Tynion needs to stop inserting his fanfic ideas into comics.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Courtesy of Rocafort, Red Hood/Arsenal issue 1 variant cover



Those suits look really cool under a different artist.

And what do you know? Jason only changed the jacket for a hoddied vest.

----------


## LP22

> Yeah I wonder if that story will be swept under the rug. I plead guilty to actually finding the relationship somewhat compelling but it would need a better storyline/focus etc.


It doesnt matter anyway the dick/babs shippers wouldn't allow it and will Continue to Complain about it :Wink:

----------


## LoneNecromancer

> Courtesy of Rocafort, Red Hood/Arsenal issue 1 variant cover
> 
> 
> 
> Those suits look really cool under a different artist.
> 
> And what do you know? Jason only changed the jacket for a hoddied vest.


That's actually a pretty cool look for Roy.

----------


## RedQueen

I kind of like the new outfits. They give me a 90s comic vibe but in a good way. I do have to say though their costumes look a bit overcomplicated in some areas but color me impressed overall. But I can easily see the outfit being a hit or miss with some people.

----------


## RedQueen

> It doesnt matter anyway the dick/babs shippers wouldn't allow it and will Continue to Complain about it


haha Apparently Barbara can't be paired with anyone other than Dick but it is apparently suitable for Dick to date whoever he wants. Babs even looking at Jason was considered an absolute betrayal of the highest order on tumblr. Scary stuff and then they had to drag Jason into their shipping rants. I so want Babs to have the hots for Jason to anger shippers in retaliation for the mess they made in the Jason Todd tag for days. Like I just want to protect Babs and Jason tags but sometimes they can get really messy because of stupid ship wars.

----------


## Badou

> haha Apparently Barbara can't be paired with anyone other than Dick but it is apparently suitable for Dick to date whoever he wants. Babs even looking at Jason was considered an absolute betrayal of the highest order on tumblr. Scary stuff and then they had to drag Jason into their shipping rants. I so want Babs to have the hots for Jason to anger shippers in retaliation for the mess they made in the Jason Todd tag for days. Like I just want to protect Babs and Jason tags but sometimes they can get really messy because of stupid ship wars.


It isn't just the Dick/Babs fans that dislike it. I think Jason fans dislike it because it keeps putting Jason in Dick's shadow. It's a tried story that Jason can't seem to grow out of. Give him his own love interests and friends. No need to constantly take from Dick's history to fill out Jason's character more. It causes needless drama. It is like Dick dating Catwoman, Bruce dating Lois, or even Jason dating Stephanie. 

I mean I still think that him and Julia Pennyworth would be interesting. It gives him his own love interest within the Batman family, like all the other prominent Batman family members, and it helps establish her character and gives he some more roots to stick around longer. Plus I always thought the Alfred/Jason dynamic is interesting. As for Barbara I think people liked the idea of her and Ted Kord back in the day, but too bad that didn't go anywhere.

----------


## Rakiduam

> haha Apparently Barbara can't be paired with anyone other than Dick but it is apparently suitable for Dick to date whoever he wants. Babs even looking at Jason was considered an absolute betrayal of the highest order on tumblr. Scary stuff and then they had to drag Jason into their shipping rants. I so want Babs to have the hots for Jason to anger shippers in retaliation for the mess they made in the Jason Todd tag for days. Like I just want to protect Babs and Jason tags but sometimes they can get really messy because of stupid ship wars.


Not really, girls in tumblr love the paring they say it gives them "feels" 

Hey, talking of the on going effort of turning Jason in Dick in any possible way, did they have to go with green pants? I know is a pretty dumb detail, but why green pants?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Courtesy of Rocafort, Red Hood/Arsenal issue 1 variant cover
> 
> 
> 
> Those suits look really cool under a different artist.
> 
> And what do you know? Jason only changed the jacket for a hoddied vest.


I'm so getting this cover instead of the other one. It's much better executed and easier on the eyes than the Porter one. It also makes me realize how much I miss Rocafort drawing Jason and Roy. Wish he'd come back to this title instead of drawing the dull Teen Titans book.

----------


## Rac7d*

> haha Apparently Barbara can't be paired with anyone other than Dick but it is apparently suitable for Dick to date whoever he wants. Babs even looking at Jason was considered an absolute betrayal of the highest order on tumblr. Scary stuff and then they had to drag Jason into their shipping rants. I so want Babs to have the hots for Jason to anger shippers in retaliation for the mess they made in the Jason Todd tag for days. Like I just want to protect Babs and Jason tags but sometimes they can get really messy because of stupid ship wars.


It proably wouldnt be so bad if the bruce/babs thing never happened while she was engaged to dick. It already made her look pretty bad

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm so getting this cover instead of the other one. It's much better executed and easier on the eyes than the Porter one. It also makes me realize how much I miss Rocafort drawing Jason and Roy. Wish he'd come back to this title instead of drawing the dull Teen Titans book.


As much as I like Rocafort, I would rather have someone that doesn't draws the dumb expressive helmet (assuming that Medry doesn't uses it of course). Plus I haven't really enjoyed Rocafort's work on neither Superman or Teen Titans. It looks sketchier and I don't know, kind of lifeless.




> Not really, girls in tumblr love the paring they say it gives them "feels" 
> 
> Hey, talking of the on going effort of turning Jason in Dick in any possible way, did they have to go with green pants? I know is a pretty dumb detail, but why green pants?


They're seem to aim for a more militaristic look so green camo pants make perfect sense. 




> It isn't just the Dick/Babs fans that dislike it. I think Jason fans dislike it because it keeps putting Jason in Dick's shadow. It's a tried story that Jason can't seem to grow out of. Give him his own love interests and friends. No need to constantly take from Dick's history to fill out Jason's character more. It causes needless drama. It is like Dick dating Catwoman, Bruce dating Lois, or even Jason dating Stephanie. 
> 
> I mean I still think that him and Julia Pennyworth would be interesting. It gives him his own love interest within the Batman family, like all the other prominent Batman family members, and it helps establish her character and gives he some more roots to stick around longer. Plus I always thought the Alfred/Jason dynamic is interesting. As for Barbara I think people liked the idea of her and Ted Kord back in the day, but too bad that didn't go anywhere.


My biggest gripe against the Jason/Babs romance is that comes from nowhere. Ignoring Jason and Barbara characterization through all the N52 just to make a poor knockoff of Dick and Barbara romance, just because seemingly Tynion can't stop using Jason as stand in to satisfy his burning desire of writing Dick (losing the Nightwing/Grayson gig to Seeley and King must've stung).

----------


## joybeans

Most Barbara Gordon fans hate it, too, since it makes her into just an ex-Robin love interest, instead of her own character.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> My biggest gripe against the Jason/Babs romance is that comes from nowhere. Ignoring Jason and Barbara characterization through all the N52 just to make a poor knockoff of Dick and Barbara romance, just because seemingly Tynion can't stop using Jason as stand in to satisfy his burning desire of writing Dick (losing the Nightwing/Grayson gig to Seeley and King must've stung).


Honestly I'm not sure that Tynion has a burning desire to write Dick Grayson at all. He practically said that Nightwing was an uninteresting character to him at one point and honestly I'm glad he didn't get the gig because of that and that his _Nightwing #30_ was scrapped. The art was nicely done but and I liked it but I imagine we would have had a script that was full of over the top melodrama and badly handled dialog. Plus I think perhaps we would have also seen the beginnings of this Jason/Babs romance idea. Seeley and King are a much better option when stacked against what Tynion said about the character and what he's done with Jason in both his _RHatO_ run and in _Eternal_.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Honestly I'm not sure that Tynion has a burning desire to write Dick Grayson at all. He practically said that Nightwing was an uninteresting character to him at one point and honestly I'm glad he didn't get the gig because of that and that his _Nightwing #30_ was scrapped. The art was nicely done but and I liked it but I imagine we would have had a script that was full of over the top melodrama and badly handled dialog. Plus I think perhaps we would have also seen the beginnings of this Jason/Babs romance idea. Seeley and King are a much better option when stacked against what Tynion said about the character and what he's done with Jason in both his _RHatO_ run and in _Eternal_.


Tynion says a lot of stuff that rarely follows upon. He hyped on his tumblr the Nightwing gig for a while before the deal fel through.

The facts are that his run on RHATO hit every single beat found on old Titans stories only replacing Dick for Jason. The fact he even made Jason a blank slate through the memory wipe nonsense only made it clearer. This is a trend present on Eternal where Jason's role is even more blatanly that of a Grayson's stand in.

----------


## LP22

I For one was glad that jason was heavily involved in Eternal,his portrayal as Probably the second in coomand felt more  like an Evolution for him rather then a meaningless stand in.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Tynion says a lot of stuff that rarely follows upon. He hyped on his tumblr the Nightwing gig for a while before the deal fel through.
> 
> The facts are that his run on RHATO hit every single beat found on old Titans stories only replacing Dick for Jason. The fact he even made Jason a blank slate through the memory wipe nonsense only made it clearer. This is a trend present on Eternal where Jason's role is even more blatanly that of a Grayson's stand in.


Well, I don't follow tumblr so I didn't see any of that. All I saw was him talking in interviews about how boring and unnecessary the character was and frankly it made me very uninterested in whatever _Nightwing_ book he might have done. Also I don't see any of his writing of Jason as him showing that he desperately wants to write a Dick Grayson book especially not in _Eternal._ Jason put in the position of Dick, that is to say he became the SIC, sure but it probably had more to do with the fact that the Dick himself was not available for the weekly due to his "death" then with Tynion maybe wanting to actually be writing him. As for his run on RH having similar beats to old Teen Titans stories that doesn't really prove anything other than that he couldn't think of anything original to do with the characters and he figured he riff on one of those stories instead since he didn't really care to write about Jason in the first place.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I For one was glad that jason was heavily involved in Eternal,his portrayal as Probably the second in coomand felt more  like an Evolution for him rather then a meaningless stand in.


Except that he wasn't?

He was always depicted as following orders, never calling the shots.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason and Barbara--ugh.  Jason and Starfire--ugh.  Jason has had enough of Dick's hand-me-downs.  Not to try to sound sexist or anything like that, but NEW love interests, NEW supporting characters, etc etc etc--should be created for Jason.  DC is sooooooo LAZY.

----------


## LP22

> Except that he wasn't?
> 
> He was always depicted as following orders, never calling the shots.



Well for his defense he was with batman...

----------


## Kurisu

> I For one was glad that jason was heavily involved in Eternal,his portrayal as Probably the second in coomand felt more  like an Evolution for him rather then a meaningless stand in.




Glad he's sticking around for Year 2!

----------


## joybeans

Tim was more of a "second in command" in Eternal. He was the one giving all the orders when Bruce wasn't around.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Got my Arkham Knigh Red Hood from Gamestop, is pretty dang awesome, lots of poseability and detail



Very superior to the N52 Red Hood that came out a few months ago



Not a fan of the weird "muzzle" on the helmet tho

----------


## JasonTodd428

Cool. Looks pretty awesome to me.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tim was more of a "second in command" in Eternal. He was the one giving all the orders when Bruce wasn't around.


Of course.  You guys don't think Darlin' Dan Didio is gonna give Jason a tidbit when he really wants to give Tim the whole catch.

----------


## Kristoffera

> Got my Arkham Knigh Red Hood from Gamestop, is pretty dang awesome, lots of poseability and detail
> 
> 
> 
> Very superior to the N52 Red Hood that came out a few months ago
> 
> 
> 
> Not a fan of the weird "muzzle" on the helmet tho


Very nice. This version is the best version of him in all of DC. Same goes for the Scarecrow in the games.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason and Barbara--ugh.  Jason and Starfire--ugh.  Jason has had enough of Dick's hand-me-downs.  Not to try to sound sexist or anything like that, but NEW love interests, NEW supporting characters, etc etc etc--should be created for Jason.  DC is sooooooo LAZY.


Jason and Starfire were never romantically linked. They had one night of buddy sex.

----------


## Aioros22

> Tynion says a lot of stuff that rarely follows upon. He hyped on his tumblr the Nightwing gig for a while before the deal fel through.
> 
> The facts are that his run on RHATO hit every single beat found on old Titans stories only replacing Dick for Jason. The fact he even made Jason a blank slate through the memory wipe nonsense only made it clearer. This is a trend present on Eternal where Jason's role is even more blatanly that of a Grayson's stand in.


Jason doesn`t really follow orders, even in Eternal. He operates as someone who helps but does it his way. Up to breaking security in the mansion to watch out for Alfred at the hospital. Tim was second in command to the new recruits, he wasn`t giving Jason orders on how to operate. He came and go when he pleased. 

That being said, the romance angle came out of nowhere. That bugs me more whether it`s Barbara or someone else.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason doesn`t really follow orders, even in Eternal. He operates as someone who helps but does it his way. *Up to breaking security in the mansion* to watch out for Alfred at the hospital. Tim was second in command to the new recruits, he wasn`t giving Jason orders on how to operate. He came and go when he pleased. 
> 
> That being said, the romance angle came out of nowhere. That bugs me more whether it`s Barbara or someone else.


This was the first sign that Eternal team simply doesn't know/care about Jason. There's absolutely no reason for Jason to break security on the Mansion, specially when Bruce was the one who called him in the first place.

And saying that Jason does things "his way" doesn't means a lot when there's only a possible outcome.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Courtesy of Rocafort, Red Hood/Arsenal issue 1 variant cover
> 
> 
> 
> Those suits look really cool under a different artist.
> 
> And what do you know? Jason only changed the jacket for a hoddied vest.


I love this  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Straight from Denis Medri (the series' artist): Red Hood's new duds



http://denism79.deviantart.com/art/R...erie-530990492

SO COOL

And the best thing, NO MORE EXPRESSIVE MASK!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Straight from Denis Medri (the series' artist): Red Hood's new duds
> 
> 
> 
> http://denism79.deviantart.com/art/R...erie-530990492
> 
> SO COOL
> 
> And the best thing, NO MORE EXPRESSIVE MASK!


Now I'm not so sure about the redesign here. It looks overly bulky to me and that collar doesn't help matters any. Of course this just looks like a rough sketch so hopefully it looks cleaner and a bit more streamlined in the comic. As for the helmet so long as Medri keeps his eyes covered I'm fine with it. That was the one thing about the last expressionless mask that really bugged me. I like the Arkham look better.

----------


## Godlike13

> Straight from Denis Medri (the series' artist): Red Hood's new duds
> 
> 
> 
> http://denism79.deviantart.com/art/R...erie-530990492
> 
> SO COOL
> 
> And the best thing, NO MORE EXPRESSIVE MASK!


Looks good, i like the new digs better in the sketch than the cover. Less overly busy. Though i wish they would ditch the Bat symbol.

----------


## oasis1313

Yeah, the Bat-Signal sucks.  Jason shouldn't have to be a Bat-Soldier.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Looks good, i like the new digs better in the sketch than the cover. Less overly busy. Though i wish they would ditch the Bat symbol.


I'm going to nitpick here. It's less busy in the sketch sure but it still looks unnecessarily bulky from his neck to his waist. That's a lot of armoring to be carrying around under that vest. The collar looks okay to me when the hood is up but when it's down it just looks bad. Damian had a high collar on his vest and a hooded cape and artists managed to make it work. This redesign just isn't doing it for me at least insofar as the sketch here is concerned though it might look better in the actual book. I just think the Arkham design, which has a lot of the same elements pulls this look off better.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't know where are you seeing bulk on the sketch. Being the owner of similar vests I can say there are no bulk on there, depending on the fabric the vest can be more rigid though.

And other than the vest, the arm guards and  the leg armor;  the design is exactly the same as how Silva drew him

----------


## JasonTodd428

It appears to be a proportion issue. From my perspective the shoulders on the vest coupled with the collar are giving him a very broad-shouldered appearance, hence my use of the word "bulky". Maybe blocky is a more apt description. I like a lot of the design but those wide shoulders and especially that collar don't look right to me. I really dislike that collar and think the overall design would look better if the armoring underneath was basically the same one as before and the hooded vest was a replacement for his normal leather jacket.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It appears to be a proportion issue. From my perspective the shoulders on the vest coupled with the collar are giving him a very broad-shouldered appearance, hence my use of the word "bulky". Maybe blocky is a more apt description. I like a lot of the design but those wide shoulders and especially that collar don't look right to me. I really dislike that collar and think the overall design would look better if the armoring underneath was basically the same one as before and *the hooded vest was a replacement for his normal leather jacket*.


It is though?

And it looks blocky becasue that's Medri's style.

Anyways, you can get the sneak already here

https://www.readdcentertainment.com/...rint/list/6553

Red Hood/Arsenal is exactly what I expected, a fun as hell buddy cop book. Medri's art is pretty great although the hairdos he gave to both Jason and Roy SUCK



Seriously, what the hell?

----------


## Godlike13

He, he, he they gave Jason a fohawk and Roy the Macklemore. I kind of like that.

----------


## RedQueen

Weird hair choices but ok. I'm forever missing the white streak. It was a great identifyer is the sea of blue eyed, black-haired batfam males.

I don't understand why the New 52 didn't go for it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And now, Roy's design sheet



Looks like he will ditch the hat.

I like the look, just change the stupid hairdo of the boys and we're golden.

----------


## Aioros22

> This was the first sign that Eternal team simply doesn't know/care about Jason.


I don`t see that as accurate, but to each their own. I think they care, the question is, if the direction they care about pays off for the character or not. 




> There's absolutely no reason for Jason to break security on the Mansion, specially when Bruce was the one who called him in the first place.


He broke security because security in the mansion was set online. It wasn`t a case of having the door open and choosing to be a dick (which he pulls wonderfully if he wants to). That scene only made Bruce look like an old fart. He sets security online after he asks one of his own to come in and help but can`t hazzard the effort of spending a weekend with his genius upgrading the damn thing after the last Joker raid. 

Writers played it well when Jason shut him up. 




> And saying that Jason does things "his way" doesn't means a lot when there's only a possible outcome.


The outcome he choses to be part of.

I`m liking the new Hood vest, but I know I`ll miss the jacket. Then again, ever since UDRH Jason has had some slick designs to chose from. No biggie, it`s linking marketing to the game and brings more to the fold. 

The haircuts will look sharper depending the artists and I`m sure the current artist will only get better.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It is though?


It pretty much is a replacement yes and to me it would look loads better with the previous designs armor underneath it. YMMV




> And it looks blocky becasue that's Medri's style.


I really don't care for that particular art style myself and it's not one that I personally think makes characters look good. I makes them look chunky to me and not in a good way either.  You like it and that's fine but not everyone is going to. 




> Red Hood/Arsenal is exactly what I expected, a fun as hell buddy cop book. Medri's art is pretty great although the hairdos he gave to both Jason and Roy SUCK
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what the hell?


Loved the writing here but those hairdos have got to go and so does that collar that Jason is sporting now.  Both are just horrible IMHO. I'm still not liking the costume redesigns or the art in particular either but maybe it'll grow on me over time.

----------


## LP22

I lOVE Jay's new mohawk I Usually get a haircut like this so props,DC really digs the mohawk lately.Jason,Midnighter,gordon,bruce in zero year,The Joker in Endgame.

----------


## Godlike13

I wouldn't mind if the mohawk was a little less Bieber and little more punk rock. Still i think its a good look for him.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I wouldn't mind if the mohawk was a little less Bieber and little more punk rock. Still i think its a good look for him.


I'd probably like Jay's mohawk better if it was more punk rock.

----------


## K. Jones

THIS WEEK IN JAYBIRDS, PAST.

I won't get too deep into Convergence: Batman & Robin's merits, but as far as Jason and Scarlet's showing, it was pretty nice. Actually ironically, considering its set in the midst of a dead-end timeline trash dump, it felt like a natural missing step in-between Jay's relationship with the Bat-Fam prior to Flashpoint and then presently now, after it. Well, Jason's relationship with Bruce and Damian, anyway. Scarlet didn't get a lot of development. But, on that note - she did hold her own in her first actual superhero "holy crap, metahumans" fight. And she wasn't unceremoniously fridged, either.

Otherwise, Cowan & Jansen had some better angles and bad-ass sorts of panels of Red Hood this month compared to last issue. The story itself was a little better, too. While B&R hasn't by a long shot been the "best of Convergence", Marz has told a pretty okay piece of the puzzle, and his Jason Todd voice is actually pretty solid.

----------


## K. Jones

Read the Divergence sneak peek. Oh man, I love it.

Love it. It's so 90s, but that's Jason, man. He's been 80s for so long. He died in the 80s, he came back as an 80s anti-character, it makes sense his progression of "self" would be trapped in the period of comics in which he died, and he's a little behind on the growth train - but he is growing. He's been shifting 90s since the New 52 began, but man, wow, he and Roy just hit PEAK 90S. And it's perfect - not just for them, but the perfect title for DC to be reflective and self-aware about how 90s extreme it is. Thoughtful and reflective of a holistic long period of self-growth is Grayson's bag. More youthful and modern and post-post? That's Tim Drake. Reveling in the era we're all currently embarrassed about and making it ironically cool? Perfect Jason fodder. 

Kobra, even relaunched and without build-up, even not a shadow cult like Rucka & Trautmann were doing, should be a formidable threat.

I'd hoped I'd like the new dynamic, and yep, I sure do. I even like the costumes. Maybe not my favorite versions of Roy or Jason's costumes ever (I tend toward streamlining) but they fit the bill and don't look bad to me. Jason getting a touch reflective of how he looks in the new Arkham Knight, and Roy looking a little less Speedy and more Red Arrow are okay bits. (I do miss Roy's flippant trucker cap and sleevelessness, but it's no dealbreaker)

As far as Medri's art, while I like the cartoonish expressiveness, bigness, and the somewhat Bernard Changlike linework (definite compliment), what I think I like the most is that the redboys actually look their age for the first time in a while.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason looks like a woman in these drawings.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Read the Divergence sneak peek. Oh man, I love it.
> 
> Love it. It's so 90s, but that's Jason, man. He's been 80s for so long. He died in the 80s, he came back as an 80s anti-character, it makes sense his progression of "self" would be trapped in the period of comics in which he died, and he's a little behind on the growth train - but he is growing. He's been shifting 90s since the New 52 began, but man, wow, he and Roy just hit PEAK 90S. And it's perfect - not just for them, but the perfect title for DC to be reflective and self-aware about how 90s extreme it is. Thoughtful and reflective of a holistic long period of self-growth is Grayson's bag. More youthful and modern and post-post? That's Tim Drake. Reveling in the era we're all currently embarrassed about and making it ironically cool? Perfect Jason fodder. 
> 
> Kobra, even relaunched and without build-up, even not a shadow cult like Rucka & Trautmann were doing, should be a formidable threat.
> 
> I'd hoped I'd like the new dynamic, and yep, I sure do. I even like the costumes. Maybe not my favorite versions of Roy or Jason's costumes ever (I tend toward streamlining) but they fit the bill and don't look bad to me. Jason getting a touch reflective of how he looks in the new Arkham Knight, and Roy looking a little less Speedy and more Red Arrow are okay bits. (I do miss Roy's flippant trucker cap and sleevelessness, but it's no dealbreaker)
> 
> As far as Medri's art, while I like the cartoonish expressiveness, bigness, and the somewhat Bernard Changlike linework (definite compliment), what I think I like the most is that the redboys actually look *their age* for the first time in a while.


Really? I think they look younger than they should be. Fault of the stupid haircut, no doubt.

What's with DC's current fixation on mohawks anyways?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Really? I think they look younger than they should be. Fault of the stupid haircut, no doubt.


To me they look about the same age as before. 




> What's with DC's current fixation on mohawks anyways?


Who knows. At least now he's visually distinctive from the other former Robins. I think I'm already starting to get used to the look a bit honestly. Seriously though I don't mind Jason's haircut half as much as Roy's. It might be better if Roy's hair was a bit shorter like Jay's is although I suppose the Jaybird could simply be having helmet hair there.

----------


## LP22

> Really? I think they look younger than they should be. Fault of the stupid haircut, no doubt.
> 
> What's with DC's current fixation on mohawks anyways?


In the last several years the mohawk haircut has become really popular mainly due to famous sports stars like neymar and cristiano ronaldo,In my country It's  the most stylish haircut,allot of people have it Including me.

But that's just in my country.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> In the last several years the mohawk haircut has become really popular mainly due to famous sports stars like neymar and cristiano ronaldo,In my country It's  the most stylish haircut,allot of people have it Including me.
> 
> But that's just in my country.


I've seen a lot of guys around here sporting the same kind of haircut. It's a pretty popular haircut here as well.

----------


## K. Jones

> Really? I think they look younger than they should be. Fault of the stupid haircut, no doubt.
> 
> What's with DC's current fixation on mohawks anyways?


I think it's important to remember that not only are Jason and Roy in the 19-21 age range, but they're also you know ... kind of total douchebags. Lovable douchebags to be sure, but definitely douchebags. Under the Hood and Revenge of the Red Hood? Douchey. Speedy is a junkie? Or even his bad attitude in Young Justice? Pretty douchey. This isn't a Dick Grayson book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Still, Jason has never struck me like being one to care a lot about his appearance, so suddenly having him sporting a trendy haircut kind of clashes with his character.

----------


## K. Jones

> Still, Jason has never struck me like being one to care a lot about his appearance, so suddenly having him sporting a trendy haircut kind of clashes with his character.


True, true. Not only that but with his militant brand of vigilantism, and tendency to wear head-tight red facemasks, you'd think the Arkham City-style Tim Drake shaved head would be his style. Or like, the Zero Year Bruce haircut that Frank Miller was raving about, seems ironically appropriate for Jay.

----------


## The World

Isn't he rocking an undercut not a mohawk? It looked closer to what this guy has



Either way I like it, makes him look youthful.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Isn't he rocking an undercut not a mohawk? It looked closer to what this guy has
> 
> 
> 
> Either way I like it, makes him look youthful.


Now that you mention it that does look closer the hairstyles here. Good catch. I think I slowly coming around to liking it on Jason. Still don't like it on Roy though.

----------


## Godlike13

Guys, its a textbook fohawk. Just google fohawk.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That's not a fohawk though. 

A fohawk would be great for Jason in fact.

----------


## Godlike13

How is that not a fohawk? It has the patent forward point and everything.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Fohawks doesn't have such marked difference between the sides and the top

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Read the Divergence sneak peek. Oh man, I love it.
> 
> Love it. It's so 90s, but that's Jason, man. He's been 80s for so long. He died in the 80s, he came back as an 80s anti-character, it makes sense his progression of "self" would be trapped in the period of comics in which he died, and he's a little behind on the growth train - but he is growing. He's been shifting 90s since the New 52 began, but man, wow, he and Roy just hit PEAK 90S. And it's perfect - not just for them, but the perfect title for DC to be reflective and self-aware about how 90s extreme it is. Thoughtful and reflective of a holistic long period of self-growth is Grayson's bag. More youthful and modern and post-post? That's Tim Drake. Reveling in the era we're all currently embarrassed about and making it ironically cool? Perfect Jason fodder. 
> 
> Kobra, even relaunched and without build-up, even not a shadow cult like Rucka & Trautmann were doing, should be a formidable threat.
> 
> I'd hoped I'd like the new dynamic, and yep, I sure do. I even like the costumes. Maybe not my favorite versions of Roy or Jason's costumes ever (I tend toward streamlining) but they fit the bill and don't look bad to me. Jason getting a touch reflective of how he looks in the new Arkham Knight, and Roy looking a little less Speedy and more Red Arrow are okay bits. (I do miss Roy's flippant trucker cap and sleevelessness, but it's no dealbreaker)
> 
> As far as Medri's art, while I like the cartoonish expressiveness, bigness, and the somewhat Bernard Changlike linework (definite compliment), what I think I like the most is that the redboys actually look their age for the first time in a while.


You know I really like your assessment of this book. I hope that Lobdell revels in the 90-ness of this one myself and is unapologetic about it. I do like the dynamic between Jason and Roy here but then again I always have liked that aspect of RHatO so that comes as no surprise. I'm thinking we're going to be getting a really fun buddy book here and I'm really looking forward to that. The only hang up I have is the art but maybe that will grow on me as I said. If nothing else is it does make the book distinctive.

----------


## oasis1313

> You know I really like your assessment of this book. I hope that Lobdell revels in the 90-ness of this one myself and is unapologetic about it. I do like the dynamic between Jason and Roy here but then again I always have liked that aspect of RHatO so that comes as no surprise. I'm thinking we're going to be getting a really fun buddy book here and I'm really looking forward to that. The only hang up I have is the art but maybe that will grow on me as I said. If nothing else is it does make the book distinctive.


Praise X'Hal that Starfire is GONE GONE GONE!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

From Medri's blog

http://denismedriartworks.blogspot.m...d-arsenal.html

The detail of Jason's new emblem



Other than the longer edges, is the same as his old one. And interesting detail about the edges, it makes it look like a Domino mask.

I also found this neat fanart



Still not fully on board with the new haircuts but they look fine like this. The fact the colorist messed up Jason's suit's color scheme is bothering me to no end. 

The whole point of giving him a hoodie was BECAUSE IS A RED HOOD. How can mess that up?

I hope they fix it for the series

----------


## JasonTodd428

> From Medri's blog
> 
> http://denismedriartworks.blogspot.m...d-arsenal.html
> 
> The detail of Jason's new emblem
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the longer edges, is the same as his old one. And interesting detail about the edges, it makes it look like a Domino mask.
> ...


That's a nice fanart there. I like how it makes Jason's costume look more streamlined and it does make the hairstyles look better to.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

From Medri's Devianart page a sample page he did for Red Hood last year



Holy moley, I hope the series looks like that

----------


## The World

The only thing about Medri's render is I think the arm bangles are a bit too big, but other than that I really like it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So it seems the horrible undercut on Jason and Roy is a editorial mandate.

Now Constantine also has an undercut.

What's the deal with the damn undercuts anyways?

----------


## Dataweaver

I would really have appreciated it if Convergence Week Three had included a Robin title featuring the pre-Crisis Jason Todd.  The first Robin I ever encountered in the comics was Dick Grayson in the New Teen Titans issue where he retired the Robin costume; the second Robin I ever met in the comics was Jason Todd in the story where Dick handed the costume over to him and he had to fight a "color master" villain (I forget his name).  Sure, this Jason was really similar in origin to Dick Grayson; and I'm of the opinion that they ultimately did the right thing rebooting his origin to the angsty, street-smart kid of post-Year One fame, despite the fact that he ticked off enough fans to get offed in Death in the Family.  But there was something about that _original_, pre-Crisis Jason that got lost in the shuffle and to this day has never been recovered.

----------


## oasis1313

> I would really have appreciated it if Convergence Week Three had included a Robin title featuring the pre-Crisis Jason Todd.  The first Robin I ever encountered in the comics was Dick Grayson in the New Teen Titans issue where he retired the Robin costume; the second Robin I ever met in the comics was Jason Todd in the story where Dick handed the costume over to him and he had to fight a "color master" villain (I forget his name).  Sure, this Jason was really similar in origin to Dick Grayson; and I'm of the opinion that they ultimately did the right thing rebooting his origin to the angsty, street-smart kid of post-Year One fame, despite the fact that he ticked off enough fans to get offed in Death in the Family.  But there was something about that _original_, pre-Crisis Jason that got lost in the shuffle and to this day has never been recovered.


I would say pre-Crisis Jason's most endearing quality was that he wasn't perfect.  Tim Drake made me fall in love with Jason all over again.

----------


## Dataweaver

OK; why did you feel the need to bring Tim up and bash him in a topic that had nothing to do with him?  Is it a compulsion?  Can we please get back to talking about Jason, since that's who this thread is about?

----------


## phonogram12

> OK; why did you feel the need to bring Tim up and bash him in a topic that had nothing to do with him?  Is it a compulsion?  Can we please get back to talking about Jason, since that's who this thread is about?


It's a total compulsion. He can't help himself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You know, I'm digging how Medri is sharing all of his designs for Red Hood Arsenal, he shared now the different Bat Logos he made for the new suit.



https://instagram.com/p/23br-EnsKT/

Last one on the right is very similar to Batman Beyond's but the one on the bottom left is pretty cool. The one underneath the chosen logo is weird as hell though.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh man, I so didn't see this coming

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #3
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DENIS MEDRI
Cover by HOWARD PORTER
1:25 Variant cover by DAVID MACK
On sale AUGUST 12 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for more information.
Red Hood and Arsenal are open for business! After working for the mysterious Tara Battleworth as on-staff outlaws, Roy and Jason have decided to branch out on their own as freelance problem solvers, investigators, and general butt-kicking specialists. But when the sinister corporate scourge of Underbelly rears its ugly head, can our heroes overcome pure evil and corruption made manifest?




Fantastic

----------


## JasonTodd428

I wasn't expecting this either. I'm very much looking forward to seeing where this goes.

----------


## Rac7d*

so they are getting the batgirl vibe
but for BOYS!

I was  hoping they would be more like Grayson
How old is roy? same age as dick right, is Jason old enough to drink

----------


## joybeans

Jason's probably around 19 or so. Talia estimates him to be 13 or 14 during Zero Year.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> so they are getting the batgirl vibe
> but for BOYS!
> 
> I was  hoping they would be more like Grayson
> How old is roy? same age as dick right, is Jason old enough to drink


Not really, is more like Luke Cage and Iron Fist Heroes for Hire.


You just know all this was Roy idea.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You just know all this was Roy idea.


It just has to be his idea doesn't it.

----------


## LP22

Just had a Thought in the last six years we had 4 major batman replacements who had or will have titles as batman with Dick,Damian,Gordon,And tim as batman beyond.
So I was Wondering do you think Jason could Become batman as a replacement for a period of time of maybe 1,2 years like those characters with the right development.

Maybe like when bucky took over cap I believe it will have a great story potential But only for a short period of time.
what do you think?

----------


## SpiderWing20

> Just had a Thought in the last six years we had 4 major batman replacements who had or will have titles as batman with Dick,Damian,Gordon,And tim as batman beyond.
> So I was Wondering do you think Jason could Become batman as a replacement for a period of time of maybe 1,2 years like those characters with the right development.
> 
> Maybe like when bucky took over cap I believe it will have a great story potential But only for a short period of time.
> what do you think?


 Kind of a hard one, Jason does have potential to be a unique batman. Although, there is the only problem would be people drawing comparisons to Knightfall, with there being a less moral batman. But, it could have some interesting themes to it, I'd read it

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I thought it be cool if it was revealed Jason was the robin during the Bane/Knightfall saga in the new 52 as it could lead to some cool stories with him and some interesting moments of pathos because we'd see his red hood persona and tactics take shape while he's forced to take over for batman and interact with Azreal.

Thoughts?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What do you know, turns up that these two months Jason was busy guest starring a manga



The page is from BioMega's chapter 33 and probably coincidence but damn, the hero's looking like Jason's spitting image there.

----------


## Aioros22

Definatly looks too much like him. Interesting. Maybe a visual reference to the artist`s taste. 

Let`s chalk it up to Jay working undercover in Japan.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

Okay, definitely NOT feeling the undercuts; reminds me too much of Beiber. I'll just hope that this is merely an artistic choice, and that when/if a different artist takes over we'll either get the short spiky hair, or ear-length hair. 

As for the book, well we gotta see if this will be as good as the Batgirl solo we're getting right now, or even the Hawkeye solo, seeing as that's the tone they clearly seem to be going for. I still stand by what I said; that Jason should be in a more serious/darker title. I feel like the "buddy cop/vigilante" would work more with Animal Man, or Booster Gold, than Jason. Well, we'll soon see how this works soon anyhow.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Okay, definitely NOT feeling the undercuts; reminds me too much of Beiber. I'll just hope that this is merely an artistic choice, and that when/if a different artist takes over we'll either get the short spiky hair, or ear-length hair.


Better get used to the undercut, everything points to being an editorial mandate.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Better get used to the undercut, everything points to being an editorial mandate.


I'd say it was more along the lines of an artistic choice rather than something that was mandated by editorial given the overall loosening of editorial restraints that DC seems to be attempting to have nowadays. It's merely a popular haircut at the moment so artists are using it. It's no different then having characters sport a forties style haircut in comics of that period or having those same characters wearing clothing  and hairstyles appropriate to the sixties in comics of that period.

----------


## Godlike13

I could see it being a mandate. And to be honest id get it if it was a mandate. While yes they said they were giving books more freedom, they clearly also want their books to feel younger and more contemporary.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I could see it being a mandate. And to be honest id get it if it was a mandate. While yes they said they were giving books more freedom, they clearly also want their books to feel younger and more contemporary.


Honestly, I don't see it that way. Sure DC wants there books to feel contemporary but how is that any different from what they've done in the past? Every era uses the art in order to invoke a sense that the book you are reading is "contemporary" to that particular time period. To me that's not any kind of a strict editorially controlled mandate. That's just artists taking their inspiration from the real world. There's a difference between that and editorial coming to an artist and saying such and such a character must have a particular hairstyle because we demand it. Not every decision made by a creative team can be boiled down to an editorial mandate and I get a little tired of that being used by fans as a ready made excuse for things they don't like.

----------


## Godlike13

All im i saying is i could see them requesting of the artist that their new looks and designs incorporate some of the popular styles of today. Not that that necessarily was the case, but if it was i wouldn't be surprised. While using art in order to invoke a sense that the book you are reading is "contemporary" to that particular time period is not new, having their books look and be more contemporary is something they have said in their announcement that they wanted to do more of with this June relaunch. Maybe mandate isn't the right word, but more that its something that they are encouraging.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

They gave freaking Constantine an undercut.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> All im i saying is i could see them requesting of the artist that their new looks and designs incorporate some of the popular styles of today. Not that that necessarily was the case, but if it was i wouldn't be surprised. While using art in order to invoke a sense that the book you are reading is "contemporary" to that particular time period is not new, having their books look and be more contemporary is something they have said in their announcement that they wanted to do more of with this June relaunch. Maybe mandate isn't the right word, but more that its something that they are encouraging.


Putting the words "editorial" and "mandate" together does tend to have a negative connotation, especially if we are talking about DC of late, so I don't think that's really a particularly accurate set of wording to use here. Maybe "suggested" might be a better word to use. I don't see this as something that's negative at all though since every comic book artist in every era does the same thing. That was the point I was trying to make here.

----------


## Buried Alien

Here are some thoughts to chew on:

This year marks TEN YEARS since Jason Todd returned as a current, living character in the DC Universe.

Remember:  he had only been around for five years (as Robin) during the 1980s when he was killed off in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY.  At the time, Jason was killed off because not enough fans were willing to vote to support the continuation of his character through that ghoulish phone-in vote.

Jason remained dead for the next seventeen years.  During that time, if you were to ask anybody if Jason would ever be revived, most would probably have responded that it would be extremely unlikely.

But here we are...ten years into Jason's revival, and he's arguably more popular today than he ever was during his first lifetime as Robin.  

Moreover, if you add the five years he was Robin to the ten that he has been back as the Red Hood, he's closing in on being a living character as long as he was a dead character.

In light of all this, would you say that Jason Todd might be DC's most successful reclaimed and rehabilitated character ever?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Here are some thoughts to chew on:
> 
> This year marks TEN YEARS since Jason Todd returned as a current, living character in the DC Universe.
> 
> Remember:  he had only been around for five years (as Robin) during the 1980s when he was killed of in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY.  At the time, Jason was killed off because not enough fans were willing to vote to support the continuation of his character through that ghoulish phone-in vote.
> 
> Jason remained dead for the next seventeen years.  During that time, if you were to ask anybody if Jason would ever be revived, most would probably have responded that it would be extremely unlikely.
> 
> But here we are...ten years into Jason's revival, and he's arguably more popular today than he ever was during his first lifetime as Robin.  
> ...


That's a very interesting thought. It would be fantastic if Lobdell (or DC) were allowed to acknowledge the ten anniversary of Jason's return. 

Have you guys heard the rumours about Red Hood becoming a "priority character" for DC?

Anyways, more fantastic art from Medri



The redesigned suit really does look pretty freaking cool.

Medri's art is also pretty pleasant to the eye but for what I've seen, is the colorist what makes or breaks it. The Sneak Peek while looking good wasn't nearly as memorable as it would be with Medri's monochrome style.

----------


## Aioros22

> Here are some thoughts to chew on:
> 
> This year marks TEN YEARS since Jason Todd returned as a current, living character in the DC Universe.
> 
> Remember:  he had only been around for five years (as Robin) during the 1980s when he was killed of in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY.  At the time, Jason was killed off because not enough fans were willing to vote to support the continuation of his character through that ghoulish phone-in vote.
> 
> Jason remained dead for the next seventeen years.  During that time, if you were to ask anybody if Jason would ever be revived, most would probably have responded that it would be extremely unlikely.
> 
> But here we are...ten years into Jason's revival, and he's arguably more popular today than he ever was during his first lifetime as Robin.  
> ...


I think the poll having been rigged kind murks any discussion about fan support or not. I rather chalk it up to a part of the comic fandom not liking Starlin`s direction. But it would be cool if editorial aknowledged in print some sort of "anniversary" here. And he might be the most sucessefull rebirt of DC ever, now that I think of it.

By the way folks: 
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5348163.html#cutid1

Rumors are up and going.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Here are some thoughts to chew on:
> 
> This year marks TEN YEARS since Jason Todd returned as a current, living character in the DC Universe.
> 
> Remember:  he had only been around for five years (as Robin) during the 1980s when he was killed of in A DEATH IN THE FAMILY.  At the time, Jason was killed off because not enough fans were willing to vote to support the continuation of his character through that ghoulish phone-in vote.
> 
> Jason remained dead for the next seventeen years.  During that time, if you were to ask anybody if Jason would ever be revived, most would probably have responded that it would be extremely unlikely.
> 
> But here we are...ten years into Jason's revival, and he's arguably more popular today than he ever was during his first lifetime as Robin.  
> ...


That's a great question Buried Allen. I hope they do mention is 10 years of being back. Also I think he is DC's most successful reclaimed character. As you have stated he is more popular now then he has ever been. The Under the Red Hood movie was amazing and brought new light to the characters greatness. Also he was the original bad boy of the Batman family. The black sheep and I think a lot of people dig that. He has always been my favorite Bat character and I can't even express how joyful I was when he returned.

----------


## SpiderWing20

Here's something for you guys https://youtu.be/p8kCPAiO8_M

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Here's something for you guys https://youtu.be/p8kCPAiO8_M


About damn time we see some Red Hood gameplay.

Looks fantastic.

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

Awesome!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG_S...ature=youtu.be


DAAAAAAAMN

----------


## Frontier

That looked pretty awesome, and I hope we learn who's voicing Red Hood soon  :Big Grin: .

I wonder...were those Black Mask goons?

----------


## Aioros22

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG_S...ature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> DAAAAAAAMN


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKMNPQ35OUc

----------


## Kalethas31

is so awesome

----------


## AJpyro

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG_S...ature=youtu.be
> 
> 
> DAAAAAAAMN


HOT Damn! Need to get this!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #4
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by PAOLO PANTALENA
Cover by HOWARD PORTER
On sale SEPTEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
The boys battle Batman! Red Hood and Arsenal are taking their vigilante business to Gotham City, whether the new Dark Knight likes it or not—and they’re about to skip the introductions and get right to fighting!

This is gonna be so good.

If anyone's curious, here's the Devianrt page of this issue's artist

----------


## Kalethas31

the new artist is  good

----------


## Tony Stark

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #4
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by PAOLO PANTALENA
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> On sale SEPTEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> The boys battle Batman! Red Hood and Arsenal are taking their vigilante business to Gotham City, whether the new Dark Knight likes it or not—and they’re about to skip the introductions and get right to fighting!
> 
> This is gonna be so good.
> 
> If anyone's curious, here's the Devianrt page of this issue's artist


Looks awesome! Jason has to show the new Batman how it's done!

----------


## LP22

Hmm... I Wonder what made jim so angry,maybe Jay asked jim if he would date Babs? :Big Grin:

----------


## AJpyro

> Hmm... I Wonder what made jim so angry,maybe Jay asked jim if he would date Babs?


Probably angry at the young whippersnappers for using guns.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/612011324554526721


Hmmm, I don't know what to think about this.

----------


## Jason Todd

Just thinking about it for a couple of minutes I think it is a pretty good deal (depending on how it is handled) that Jason runs into Dick, I notice they said "run into"as appose to saying "discover", maybe a small thing but its all clock and dagger right. Up until now it has always been Tim's domain unraveling Bruce's little plans and ideas and now with the supposed rumor that Jason is becoming a priority character, it just might bare this rumor out.

----------


## JasonTodd428

This is the second time I've heard someone say that Jason is a priority character for DC right now but I've not actually heard the rumor involved. Anyone have a link? If that's true then I've no complaint but after DC not really knowing what to do with the character for years and allowing him to stagnate I'd be curious what this rumor of being a priority entails.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This is the second time I've heard someone say that Jason is a priority character for DC right now but I've not actually heard the rumor involved. Anyone have a link? If that's true then I've no complaint but after DC not really knowing what to do with the character for years and allowing him to stagnate I'd be curious what this rumor of being a priority entails.


http://www.latino-review.com/news/wi...ed-for-dc-film

----------


## Aioros22

> This is the second time I've heard someone say that Jason is a priority character for DC right now but I've not actually heard the rumor involved. Anyone have a link? If that's true then I've no complaint but after DC not really knowing what to do with the character for years and allowing him to stagnate I'd be curious what this rumor of being a priority entails.


I don`t think I agree. Jason hasn`t been stagnant in the reboot at all, proof of it is the number of writers using him at the same time with consistant delivery. I know you didn`t care for Eternal, personally neither did I, even if some things bothered me less than it bothered you, but that`s one series. One. 

His appearances and run-ins in Justice League, Action Comics, RATHO, Batman&Robin, etc, more than warrant a consideration that the office does view him in good regard. He brings some readers in and another kind of appeal to the brand, that`s a no brainer.

I`m finding the "media" tone of the work-for-hire aspect of the title fun. The Batman line is certainly going there with WAR and BG.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don`t think I agree. Jason hasn`t been stagnant in the reboot at all, proof of it is the number of writers using him at the same time with consistant delivery. I know you didn`t care for Eternal, personally neither did I, even if some things bothered me less than it bothered you, but that`s one series. One. 
> 
> His appearances and run-ins in Justice League, Action Comics, RATHO, Batman&Robin, etc, more than warrant a consideration that the office does view him in good regard. He brings some readers in and another kind of appeal to the brand, that`s a no brainer.
> 
> I`m finding the "media" tone of the work-for-hire aspect of the title fun. The Batman line is certainly going there with WAR and BG.


I was referring to the stagnation the character suffered through before the reboot

----------


## Aioros22

> I was referring to the stagnation the character suffered through before the reboot


Ah, my bad for not getting it. In that case, I totally agree.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ah, my bad for not getting it. In that case, I totally agree.


That's okay.  :Big Grin: 

@ Dark-  Thanks for the link.

----------


## Jason Todd

Dark_Tzitzimine-knew I saw it somewhere, maybe that was it but it is good to see either way. Eternal I shall have to revisit again to refresh myself with it, but I think it was more of Jason looking up to Dick and Barbara with Barbara slapping him down for being nothing more than a replacement and not a proper family member.
 I think that Jason could work in a Movie setting given that they are using the Dark knight Stories as source material, it would negate the need for Tim and would play into (as I see the trailers) Bruce's semi-retirement, as in the Book Jason's Death was Bruce's reason to retire in the first place, Just keep Nightwing to a reference or two and treat The Red Hood as a Newspaper story through the movie with a reveal in the closing credits setting up a solo Bat movie.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Dark_Tzitzimine-knew I saw it somewhere, maybe that was it but it is good to see either way. Eternal I shall have to revisit again to refresh myself with it, but I think it was more of Jason looking up to Dick and Barbara with Barbara slapping him down for being nothing more than a replacement and not a proper family member.


Eh, no.

At first Jason kept things professional but suddenly he's gushing about how perfect and better than him Batgirl is, while Barbara is seeing him as a literal Dick replacement.

Eternal is an horrible mess and now I'm dreading the Grayson crossover. Neither Seeley nor King understand Jason's character.

Doesn't help that Grayson's premise doesn't hold that well on closer inspection.

----------


## LP22

> Eh, no.
> 
> At first Jason kept things professional but suddenly he's gushing about how perfect and better than him Batgirl is, while Barbara is seeing him as a literal Dick replacement.
> 
> Eternal is an horrible mess and now I'm dreading the Grayson crossover. Neither Seeley nor King understand Jason's character.
> 
> Doesn't help that Grayson's premise doesn't hold that well on closer inspection.


I'm concerned too about Jay appearing in Grayson 12 as well tom king really came off as a Jason Todd hater in the Grayson chat,I Hope they wont downgrade and write jason badly just so Dick can look better at the expense of Jason(Battle for the cowl...),that's professional wrestling methods not comics.

----------


## Dr. Cheesesteak

> I'm concerned too about Jay appearing in Grayson 12 as well tom king really came off as a Jason Todd hater in the Grayson chat,I Hope they wont downgrade and write jason badly just so Dick can look better at the expense of Jason(Battle for the cowl...),that's professional wrestling methods not comics.


It'll probably be minor, no?  He isn't even listed on the solicitation, just shows up on the cover w/ the other Bats fam.  

Unless were there more details in that Grayson chat w/ King??  Where can I find that?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Personally I'm not at all concerned about Jay making an appearance in _ Grayson_mif he even makes that much of one. All of the really bad parts of _ Eternal_ that involved Jason and Barbara were scripted by Tynion. Seeley was merely handed a part of that overall thread and I think he was trying to put an end to it by having Jay point out to Babs that she was attracted to him for the wrong reasons and that she was trying to use him as a replacement for Dick Grayson. That's how I interpreted it anyway. I also suspect that Tynion intentionally broke up Jay and Isabel to facilitate his Jay/Babs relationship angle among the other things he did wrong during his run on RHatO. Bottom line is the whole idea of Jason and Barbara mooning over each other was the brainchild of Tynion not Seeley. As for King there's no telling whether he actually "hates" Jay at all though he could be indifferent to the character.

----------


## AJpyro

> Personally I'm not at all concerned about Jay making an appearance in _ Grayson_mif he even makes that much of one. All of the really bad parts of _ Eternal_ that involved Jason and Barbara were scripted by Tynion. Seeley was merely handed a part of that overall thread and I think he was trying to put an end to it by having Jay point out to Babs that she was attracted to him for the wrong reasons and that she was trying to use him as a replacement for Dick Grayson. That's how I interpreted it anyway. I also suspect that Tynion intentionally broke up Jay and Isabel to facilitate his Jay/Babs relationship angle among the other things he did wrong during his run on RHatO. Bottom line is the whole idea of Jason and Barbara mooning over each other was the brainchild of Tynion not Seeley. As for King there's no telling whether he actually "hates" Jay at all though he could be indifferent to the character.


...The most I know of Batman was the TAS and that's where I learned about Barbara.
Under the Red Hood and RHatO is where I learned of Jason.

So by the Entity, why did anyone think this was a good idea? I'm pretty sure RHatO established very well that Jason isn't Dick.

----------


## Jason Todd

Pretty sure EVERYONE agrees eternal was a bad move, as I said I will have to revisit it to remember the dialogue, but it looks like the whole Jason/Barbara angle is droppped and forgotten by the looks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Just look at these beauties




I really like Medri's work

----------


## JasonTodd428

> ...The most I know of Batman was the TAS and that's where I learned about Barbara.
> Under the Red Hood and RHatO is where I learned of Jason.
> 
> So by the Entity, why did anyone think this was a good idea? I'm pretty sure RHatO established very well that Jason isn't Dick.


I don't believe that Jason _himself_ thinks that he is. What happened there was that he was telling Babs that he was not going to be her rebound guy after Dick's "death" especially not if she was seeing him as "Dick" and not as "Jason", which I'm not sure she was at the time. It was his way of letting her down easy instead of an outright "no".

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't believe that Jason _himself_ thinks that he is. What happened there was that he was telling Babs that he was not going to be her rebound guy after Dick's "death" especially not if she was seeing him as "Dick" and not as "Jason", which I'm not sure she was at the time. It was his way of letting her down easy instead of an outright "no".


You know, that was my take too. It wasn`t an admittance of inferiority but him stating what was true. He`s not Grayson and that`s who Barbara likely still wants. By turning her down he`s actually reafirming the theme of him being someone else, for the good of it or/and bad. Likely the same with the lip service to Barbara. Was it needed in the story? Not really, but Babs in a way is more "loyal" or purely a "bat" than he is. Or even Grayson is, often. 

I can be wrong tho. 

@Dark, 
Really like the art too. It`s totally animated style.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You know, that was my take too. It wasn`t an admittance of inferiority but him stating what was true. He`s not Grayson and that`s who Barbara likely still wants. By turning her down he`s actually reafirming the theme of him being someone else, for the good of it or/and bad. Likely the same with the lip service to Barbara. Was it needed in the story? Not really, but Babs in a way is more "loyal" or purely a "bat" than he is. Or even Grayson is, often. 
> 
> I can be wrong tho. 
> 
> @Dark, 
> Really like the art too. It`s totally animated style.


I could have done without the whole Jason/Barbara thing myself. It didn't really serve a purpose plot-wise that I could see unless the purpose of the whole thing was to have Barbara move on from Dick by using Jason as a voice of reason so to speak. Then again that was even unnecessary because they were already moving her forward in her own book anyway.

@Dark-Those are nice. Hopefully, the colored versions look just as good.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Is it safe to talk about Arkham Knight here yet?

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

*just use the spoil tag if mentioning arkham knight and be sure to mention that its a ak spoiler (type like this [spoil] i wanna see a series where jason and dick manage a 7/11 like a batman clerks [*/spoil] but w/o the * )

spoilers:
well, the moment i saw the first pic of ak, i pretty much guessed it and the pre-order bonus leak cinched it for me
end of spoilers*

----------


## Immortal Weapon

*spoilers:*
Spoil tag wasn't issue but I mentioning anything about the game in this thread would feel like a dead giveaway. That said, as I said in the Arkham thread I like what the game did with Jason over his comic counterpart and UtRH movie. I like that Jason got the Return of the Joker treatment. Being tortured and convinced he was abandoned by Batman served as better villain motivation over rising from the grave and being pissy about Batman not breaking his rule. Though I will say it was extremely screwed up of Bats to replace him with Tim after being missing for 6 months and never finding him.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Nix Uotan

*spoilers:*
I do like the Arkham Knight costume and though I don't want Jason to be a villain again, I wouldn't mind if he sported the Arkham Knight armour in the comics for a bit.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Daredevil is Legend

More Jason and more Jason

----------


## The_Greatest_Username

Regarding Arkham Knight:

*spoilers:*
Was anyone else a little upset over how short Jason's DLC was? It felt like I had just gotten started and then I completed it. I hope they add a little bit more down the road
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well damn

----------


## godisawesome

Bruce says "20 years in Gotham, how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

----------


## Kurisu

Nice. Maybe it's just the bulky belt but it looks Arkham inspired.

----------


## byrd156

> Well damn


Is that a statue or a costume? With the colors it looks really metallic to me like it's a statue.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Is that a statue or a costume? With the colors it looks really metallic to me like it's a statue.


It's burnt, and has bulletholes.

----------


## HellHere

> Well damn


~whimpers~

Between this, and the Dick Grayson headstone, I don't think the movie-verse Robins have much more luck than the comic lot.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well damn


The glass case is here.

----------


## Diggy

> ~whimpers~
> 
> Between this, and the Dick Grayson headstone, I don't think the movie-verse Robins have much more luck than the comic lot.


Dick Grayson headstone? Must've missed that one

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

> Dick Grayson headstone? Must've missed that one


*for all we know, the grayson headstone is likely just a production gag or a false flag.*

----------


## joybeans

> *for all we know, the grayson headstone is likely just a production gag or a false flag.*


It is. In the trailer, you see the headstone during a scene of the Waynes' funeral. Most likely, whoever was in charge of set production used a bunch of Batman supporting characters to populate the names on the headstones. The whole "dead Jim Gordon" rumor came from a gravestone as well, I believe.

----------


## godisawesome

The Dick Grayson headstone also gave an improbably short lifespan for the character, something like 10 years.

Again, we here Bruce say "20 years in Gotham, how many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?"

That sentence has a lot of ambiguity in it in terms of to whom he's referring.

----------


## BloodOps

Whats left of Batman's family at this point will probably be revealed early on in the film, I'm gonna assume Dick is over in bludhaven, Jason dead and Barbara retired. An aged Batman can finally give us some sort of a small Batman family at least on the movie screen, lets hope they don't screw it up.

WB is apparently(add it to the tons of rumors for the DC universe over the past year though) high on the Red Hood arriving in this universe as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It is. In the trailer, you see the headstone during a scene of the Waynes' funeral. Most likely, whoever was in charge of set production used a bunch of Batman supporting characters to populate the names on the headstones. The whole "dead Jim Gordon" rumor came from a gravestone as well, I believe.


If the headstone is in the graveyard in the time of the Waynes' funeral it can't be Dick since that would made him either older or the same age as Bruce. Rather than meaningless callbacks, I'm thinkin that the headstone will come in play in that dream sequence where Superman took over the world.

----------


## GunCheese

What do you guys think of the new Red Hood and Arsenal series? I personally enjoy it, ALOT. Jason Todd is my favorite in the Bat Family besides the shear bad ass-ness of Batman himself. Do you think that maybe the writers are transitioning him into a full time hero?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What do you guys think of the new Red Hood and Arsenal series? I personally enjoy it, ALOT. Jason Todd is my favorite in the Bat Family besides the shear bad ass-ness of Batman himself. Do you think that maybe the writers are transitioning him into a full time hero?


I love it to pieces too, is such a great and funny book.

I don't think he will ever become a full time hero though, is just not in Jason's character. They are however, cementing him as someone who always does the right thing.

----------


## GunCheese

> I love it to pieces too, is such a great and funny book.
> 
> I don't think he will ever become a full time hero though, is just not in Jason's character. They are however, cementing him as someone who always does the right thing.


I guess that makes sense, I definitely think he's extremely underrated in the bat family.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I guess that makes sense, I definitely think he's extremely underrated in the bat family.


If we're talking about comics, I don't think that is a bad thing. Most writers don't really get his character and always reduce him to either antagonistic roles or turning him into a bad copy of Dick Grayson. A big part of the appeal I find on Red Hood/Arsenal (and the former series, Red Hood & The Outlaws) is that he's away from the Batfamily doing his own thing and making a name for himself.

On other media, yes, it is a shame he's always getting the shor side of the stick

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If we're talking about comics, I don't think that is a bad thing. Most writers don't really get his character and always reduce him to either antagonistic roles or turning him into a bad copy of Dick Grayson. A big part of the appeal I find on Red Hood/Arsenal (and the former series, Red Hood & The Outlaws) is that he's away from the Batfamily doing his own thing and making a name for himself.
> 
> On other media, yes, it is a shame he's always getting the shor side of the stick


I like Jason being away from the others and making a name for himself outside of Gotham myself but I wish he would stop drawing the short straw when it comes to other media. I hate how he gets written off there most of the time.

----------


## Godlike13

I have to ask, was Red Hood/Arsenal mentioned once from anything coming out of SDCC?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

No, but it wasn't the only book to not be mentioned. MM, Aquaman, Prez, Section 8, New Suicide Squad just off the top of my mind. 

Other like Grayson, Midnighter or Damian: SOB were mentioned in reference to other stuff but nothing regarding themselves

----------


## GunCheese

> If we're talking about comics, I don't think that is a bad thing. Most writers don't really get his character and always reduce him to either antagonistic roles or turning him into a bad copy of Dick Grayson. A big part of the appeal I find on Red Hood/Arsenal (and the former series, Red Hood & The Outlaws) is that he's away from the Batfamily doing his own thing and making a name for himself.
> 
> On other media, yes, it is a shame he's always getting the shor side of the stick


I see what you're saying, I think Red and Arsenal are a great duo and I hope the writers do them justice.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

I'm curious how well Jason would fare in a true team setting. It would be interesting to see him lead or be apart of a new incarnation of the Outsiders.

----------


## HellHere

> The Dick Grayson headstone also gave an improbably short lifespan for the character, something like 10 years.


Ah, I can only see the name on it, not the dates. As for that quote, I hope they haven't gone DKSA on Dick, because christ... *love* it if it means Jason's in play somewhere though.



RH/A - I don't know. It has some funny stuff in, and the art in #2 was cute but at the same time I'm not really finding it that great. I get that they want to take hating Batman out of Jason's motivation, I just don't see that what they've given him in exchange is that compelling.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'm curious how well Jason would fare in a true team setting. It would be interesting to see him lead or be apart of a new incarnation of the Outsiders.


I'd like to see Jason take on the mentor role, with a difficult charge; similar to himself for Bruce.

Him, and Cassandra, would make a really good, and at times funny, duo. And it'd be something to take seriously. Seeing Jason have to deal with a ward much, much stronger than him, as well as being socially inept, would really test his maturity. Him trying to teach her English would as well.

David Cain being made a Deathstroke level rogue for Jason would be awesome as well.

It'd be far more interesting than what we're getting now in terms of direction.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> I'd like to see Jason take on the mentor role, with a difficult charge; similar to himself for Bruce.
> 
> Him, and Cassandra, would make a really good, and at times funny, duo. And it'd be something to take seriously. Seeing Jason have to deal with a ward much, much stronger than him, as well as being socially inept, would really test his maturity. Him trying to teach her English would as well.
> 
> David Cain being made a Deathstroke level rogue for Jason would be awesome as well.
> 
> It'd be far more interesting than what we're getting now in terms of direction.


Jason had his own sidekick in Scarlet when Morrison wrote him as a villain. I wouldn't mind if they brought her back and had a proper mentor relationship with Jason. Being a victim of Pyg that didn't break under his mind alteration there's lots of potential how Jason (and Roy) can help her in her road to recovery.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Jason had his own sidekick in Scarlet when Morrison wrote him as a villain. I wouldn't mind if they brought her back and had a proper mentor relationship with Jason. Being a victim of Pyg that didn't break under his mind alteration there's lots of potential how Jason (and Roy) can help her in her road to recovery.



A N52 Scarlet would be awesome as well. 

Also...uh, no Arsenal for a book like this. We don't have Dick being in B&A all the time, do we?

Honestly, I don't feel like Jason fits the over the top comedy that I think that Arsenal could thrive in...in his own solo. There could be guest appearances in each other's books, but don't like the non-serious tone that Jason is forced into via Roy.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> A N52 Scarlet would be awesome as well. 
> 
> Also...uh, no Arsenal for a book like this. We don't have Dick being in B&A all the time, do we?
> 
> Honestly, I don't feel like Jason fits the over the top comedy that I think that Arsenal could thrive in...in his own solo. There could be guest appearances in each other's books, but don't like the non-serious tone that Jason is forced into via Roy.


I brought Roy into it as he's the co-lead of Jason's book. It would be difficult to do something with Jason without having him come for the ride currently.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I brought Roy into it as he's the co-lead of Jason's book. It would be difficult to do something with Jason without having him come for the ride currently.


I guess, but I'm hoping for them to eventually branch paths. A Roy solo could be hilarious. A Jason solo could be epic, tho.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm curious how well Jason would fare in a true team setting. It would be interesting to see him lead or be apart of a new incarnation of the Outsiders.


That could be interesting. In RHATO he seems to have been the reluctant leader who also seemed a bit unsure of his skills as a leader. A larger team might be a good opportunity for him to really test those skills and he's not had a chance at that yet. If they ever did that who else do you see being on the team?

----------


## Godlike13

They should put him on the Suicide Squad.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> That could be interesting. In RHATO he seems to have been the reluctant leader who also seemed a bit unsure of his skills as a leader. A larger team might be a good opportunity for him to really test those skills and he's not had a chance at that yet. If they ever did that who else do you see being on the team?


The characters I would put in Jason's outsiders

Roy (obviously)
Terra (hasn't been used since Ravangers ended.)
Owen Mercer (hasn't made his N52 debut yet. Zigzag between hero and villain pre-reboot)
Tattooed Man 
Asami "Sam" Koizumi (Character from Young Justice based on Samurai from Superfriends. Can serve as the new character)

That's who I can think of that can compliment Jason and how he operates.

----------


## AJpyro

Is there a RHaTO or a RHaA thread appreciation where we can talk about Roy or can we talk about him here?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Is there a RHaTO or a RHaA thread appreciation where we can talk about Roy or can we talk about him here?


I guess we can, since he's so intertwined in Jason's character, and all that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Honestly, even in the N52 Jason isn't a leader and he actually avoids being part of big things. So I don't think the Outsiders idea would work.

It also has the flaw of putting Jason squarely into Bruce's shadow AGAIN. Why would anyone want that?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Honestly, even in the N52 Jason isn't a leader and he actually avoids being part of big things. So I don't think the Outsiders idea would work.
> 
> It also has the flaw of *putting Jason squarely into Bruce's shadow AGAIN*. Why would anyone want that?


Who suggested that?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Outsiders are intrinsically tied with Bruce and that would be the only credible explanation for Jason to be in a team.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> The Outsiders are intrinsically tied with Bruce and that would be the only credible explanation for Jason to be in a team.


How about my mentor idea, with Cassandra?

----------


## AJpyro

I'd like to see an expansion of the Outlaws one day. Heck with the new story>continuity thing, all we need would be a writer and bam.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'd like to see an expansion of the Outlaws one day. Heck with the new story>continuity thing, all we need would be a writer and bam.


Cullen Bunn.

*drops mike*

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> How about my mentor idea, with Cassandra?


Why her?

The Cassandra you guys fondly remember for some reason (For me she's just a mary sue character) won't be the same character introduced on B&R Eternal.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Why her?
> 
> The Cassandra you guys fondly remember for some reason (For me she's just a mary sue character) won't be the same character introduced on B&R Eternal.


We don't know that yet; sure different origin, but could be mainly the same character.

That character with Jason would be a great growing up experience for him, and him not being the dominating personality that Bruce would be good for her too.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Honestly, even in the N52 Jason isn't a leader and he actually avoids being part of big things. So I don't think the Outsiders idea would work.
> 
> It also has the flaw of putting Jason squarely into Bruce's shadow AGAIN. Why would anyone want that?


Jason is in Bruce's shadow even now. For someone who wants to separate himself from Bruce the first thing he needs to do is drop the big red Bat symbol on his chest. While he made the Red Hood identity his own it's one that's still tied to the Joker.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Jason is in Bruce's shadow even now. For someone who wants to separate himself from Bruce the first thing he needs to do is drop the big red Bat symbol on his chest. While he made the Red Hood identity his own it's one that's still tied to the Joker.


I've said this as well. He'll always be seen as one of Batman's soldiers, as long as he wears a huge bat logo on his chest.

I wouldn't mind a bit of a homage, like the design in Arkham Knight, tho. Personally, my ideal Red Hood design has no logo. If I ever get around to drawing some of Red Hood designs, I'll post them.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason is in Bruce's shadow even now. For someone who wants to separate himself from Bruce the first thing he needs to do is drop the big red Bat symbol on his chest. While he made the Red Hood identity his own it's one that's still tied to the Joker.


The Red Hood identity was all about taking something FROM the Joker. And since nowadays Red Hood is what someone thinks about Jason, he was pretty succesful. The red bat is the same thing.


Plus, editorial itself doesn't consider RH/A (and by extension, Jason) an active member of the batfamily. 

By the way, the Red Hood logo in AK? Is a red bat spraypainted over the Arkham logo.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> The Red Hood identity was all about taking something FROM the Joker. And since nowadays Red Hood is what someone thinks about Jason, he was pretty succesful. The red bat is the same thing.
> 
> 
> Plus, editorial itself doesn't consider RH/A (and by extension, Jason) an active member of the batfamily. 
> 
> By the way, the Red Hood logo in AK? Is a red bat spraypainted over the Arkham logo.


Still, the Red Hood moniker was always seen as sort getting back at the Joker; by taking something that he used to own, twisting it, and then finishing him off with a twisted reflection of his former self staring back at him. 

The AK persona was doing the same thing to Batman: twisting his image, and what it stood for, to humiliate Bruce. With how things turned out there, Jason wearing a red homage to the Batman makes sense. It doesn't make sense with out the actual UtRH story concluded. To be fair, we don't how the N52 UtRH ended, but things seem to match up with the pre-N52 stuff, at least up until UtRH. 

Also, if he's not an active member, then he shouldn't be part of almost ever major Batman story...like all the other active Bat family members. I mean, just because the editorial says that, doesn't make that Jason's image on the promotion for the upcoming B&R Eternal disappear. He's almost always part of these events.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Seems to me that Jason's status within the Bat family is more akin to an auxiliary member. He does his own thing separate from them but when the sh*t hits the fan he gets called in to help. He's a former Robin and, like it or not, that means he is attached to Batman regardless of whether he wears a Bat on his costume or not. It's a side effect of having once been a part of that group.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Seems to me that Jason's status within the Bat family is more akin to an auxiliary member. He does his own thing separate from them but when the sh*t hits the fan he gets called in to help. He's a former Robin and, like it or not, that means he is attached to Batman regardless of whether he wears a Bat on his costume or not. It's a side effect of having once been a part of that group.


I agree, it's just that DC needs to stop saying that he's "not really affiliated" with the Bat family, when he very much is, and it doesn't make sense for him not to be.

Still, I'd rather no big red Bat logo. Nightwing didn't have one, so I'd especially assume Jason not to. If anything, it's Dick that should've had a Bat logo, not Jason.

----------


## AJpyro

I'd actually like more hints to Nu52 UtRH. Like we know that is pretty much like the movie but afterwards...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason's N52 suit was Grayson's.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I agree, it's just that DC needs to stop saying that he's "not really affiliated" with the Bat family, when he very much is, and it doesn't make sense for him not to be.
> 
> Still, I'd rather no big red Bat logo. Nightwing didn't have one, so I'd especially assume Jason not to. If anything, it's Dick that should've had a Bat logo, not Jason.


I'm not sure DC ever implied that Jason wasn't affiliated with them though. His book may not be edited by the Bat Office but it's pretty clear that it's still a Bat title. There's been a Bat in his name within the title of both RHATO and RH/A. His title has been involved in all of the Bat crossover events thus far and Jason has made appearances in other Bat titles as well.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'd actually like more hints to Nu52 UtRH. Like we know that is pretty much like the movie but afterwards...


Actually, I wanna see what led up to it. At that time, Talia seemed all about training him to save the world....so why would she help fund his training to kill Batman? 

Also, if he got his throat slashed by Bruce, why does he like him again? Lol. We gotta assume that Jason was still causing some trouble for the Batgod, and acolytes, even after UtRH, and didn't immediately slap on the Bat logo.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm not sure DC ever implied that Jason wasn't affiliated with them though. His book may not be edited by the Bat Office but it's pretty clear that it's still a Bat title. There's been a Bat in his name within the title of both RHATO and RH/A. His title has been involved in all of the Bat crossover events thus far and Jason has made appearances in other Bat titles as well.


To be fair though. The current direction on the Batman line makes clear those appearances are more formulaic than something really meaningful. Jason has had more significant roles on his appearances on the Superman line

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I'm not sure DC ever implied that Jason wasn't affiliated with them though. His book may not be edited by the Bat Office but it's pretty clear that it's still a Bat title. There's been a Bat in his name within the title of both RHATO and RH/A. His title has been involved in all of the Bat crossover events thus far and Jason has made appearances in other Bat titles as well.


To be honest, I which he was edited by the Bat Office; then the book would have better direction, at least.

But yeah, he's a Bat soldier. I just wish that didn't have the huge logo on his  person, when Dick didn't; he was his own guy, in his own city, doing his own thing, and all without the Bat logo. Jason is far, and away, the most distinguished from the Bat family, besides Kate (but she's Batwoman, so she needs that logo), so him having that logo, when Dick doesn't, makes no sense to me. It's like DC feels that they need to remind people that this guy is Batman affiliated, but the thing is that they don't get that him being in all the Batman events does more than enough to remind us.




> Jason's N52 suit was Grayson's.


Which sucks, because pre-N52 Jason had the coolest suit.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> To be fair though. The current direction on the Batman line makes clear those appearances are more formulaic than something really meaningful. Jason has had more significant roles on his appearances on the Superman line


This is true.

This was something I always thought was weird, and it's not like Jason has a relationship of any kind with the Superman affiliated heroes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> To be honest, I which he was edited by the Bat Office; then the book would have better direction, at least.
> 
> But yeah, he's a Bat soldier. I just wish that didn't have the huge logo on his  person, when Dick didn't; he was his own guy, in his own city, doing his own thing, and all without the Bat logo. Jason is far, and away, the most distinguished from the Bat family, besides Kate (but she's Batwoman, so she needs that logo), so him having that logo, when Dick doesn't, makes no sense to me. *It's like DC feels that they need to remind people that this guy is Batman affiliated*, but the thing is that they don't get that him being in all the Batman events does more than enough to remind us.


Editorial-wise, that is the point of the red bat. Show that Jason isn't a villian anymore and is allied with Batman.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Editorial-wise, that is the point of the red bat. Show that Jason isn't a villian anymore and is allied with Batman.


Anybody with eyes would see that he's not a villain when we see him helping people, and Batman, in both his book, and Batman's.

Did Rose Wilson (pre-N52) have to stop wearing her Ravager outfit to show she was a good guy, when she became one? No, people just used their common sense.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> To be fair though. The current direction on the Batman line makes clear those appearances are more formulaic than something really meaningful. Jason has had more significant roles on his appearances on the Superman line


I kind of see that as a sign that the Bat office or, maybe more accurately the writers, are still unsure of how to approach using the character so they are "playing it safe" likely in an attempt to not repeat the fiasco with him having been used as a one note Bat villain.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Anybody with eyes would see that he's not a villain when we see him helping people, and Batman, in both his book, and Batman's.
> 
> Did Rose Wilson (pre-N52) have to stop wearing her Ravager outfit to show she was a good guy, when she became one? No, people just used their common sense.


The difference is that Rose didn't spend years bouncing around between villian and hero as Jason nor had so wildy different takes in such a short span of time. Plus you have to remember that the N52 had a huge focus on new readers. And even now Jason is kind of an obscure character for most people.




> I kind of see that as a sign that the Bat office or, maybe more accurately the writers, are still unsure of how to approach using the character so they are "playing it safe" likely in an attempt to not repeat the fiasco with him having been used as a one note Bat villain.


Nah, is more general desinterest by Snyder. Through all the four years he has spent on Batman he has never used the bat family in any major role and he prefers to use his own characters. and since the one who sets the example for the rest of the line.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

If Jason's Batbook isn't edited by the Bat office when why Jason keeps getting involved in it's crossovers? BatJim is set to make an appearance in his book too. I honestly don't know why he cares about what Jason does at all.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> The difference is that Rose didn't spend years bouncing around between villian and hero as Jason nor had so wildy different takes in such a short span of time. Plus you have to remember that the N52 had a huge focus on new readers. And even now Jason is kind of an obscure character for most people.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, is more general desinterest by Snyder. Through all the four years he has spent on Batman he has never used the bat family in any major role and he prefers to use his own characters. and since the one who sets the example for the rest of the line.


1) Well, hopefully that changes with the movies (tho, audiences would still be seeing Jason as a villain lol). 

2) Well, it allows him to create new characters, and allows the others to do their own things. I'd say that one character this hurts is Tim, as he's even more on the fences than Todd in terms of affiliation recognition. It's surprising after how much shine he got during the Timm Era...but then again, Wally, and Jon Stewart, got a lot of shine then too, and we barely see them too.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> If Jason's Batbook isn't edited by the Bat office when why Jason keeps getting involved in it's crossovers? BatJim is set to make an appearance in his book too. I honestly don't know why he cares about what Jason does at all.


Exactly. He's not edited by the Bat Office, but they sure love to steal him for every event. They might as well bring him into the fold full time; it'd do his book very good.

As for Jim, I'm pretty sure he, unlike crazy, eccentric Bruce, doesn't like the fact that some dude, who's namesake is one of the worst criminal organizations that Gotham has had in recent years, is running around killing people, as a mercenary/gun for hire, while parading a Bat symbol. Remember, the dude was a cop; a goody-goody cop, at that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If Jason's Batbook isn't edited by the Bat office when why Jason keeps getting involved in it's crossovers? BatJim is set to make an appearance in his book too. I honestly don't know why he cares about what Jason does at all.


Jason is being dragged into Gotham for the Grayson fallout. Lobdell's original plan was to have the meeting with Gordon in issue 5 but it was put sooner to fit chronologically.

And no matter how away Jason is from Gotham, the meeting between him and Batbunny HAD to happen sooner or later. Gordon could not have interest on Jason's actions but Jason sure as hell has interest on whatever happened to Bruce.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Nah, is more general desinterest by Snyder. Through all the four years he has spent on Batman he has never used the bat family in any major role and he prefers to use his own characters. and since the one who sets the example for the rest of the line.


In my mind that amounts to the same thing though so I'll agree to disagree on that one. 




> [FONT=Book Antiqua]Exactly. He's not edited by the Bat Office, but they sure love to steal him for every event. They might as well bring him into the fold full time; it'd do his book very good.


That's been my view on things since Doyle came onboard but on the other hand I was glad that Marts wasn't involved with Jason at the start of the reboot. Frankly, the character needed to be edited by another group editor and to get away from the Bat office that had mishandled him for years at the time if he was going to be given an entirely fresh start. Given the tone of all the Bat books at the time Jason would have stayed as a grim and gritty one note villain had he remained.




> As for Jim, I'm pretty sure he, unlike crazy, eccentric Bruce, doesn't like the fact that some dude, who's namesake is one of the worst criminal organizations that Gotham has had in recent years, is running around killing people, as a mercenary/gun for hire, while parading a Bat symbol. Remember, the dude was a cop; a goody-goody cop, at that.


I do have to wonder how much of that is Jim Gordon good cop and how much of that is the people who are basically controlling him who don't want anyone who is not sanctioned by them to compete with GordonBats. As for Jason himself, I agree with Dark that he will want to know what happened to Bruce and so a meeting between the JimBats and Red Hood is sort of inevitable, especially given how JimBats has already gone after Batgirl.

----------


## Tony Stark

I think Jason's profile is getting bigger. A friend of mine who's never read the character used him while playing the newest Batman game and ever since then he can stop talking about him. I already have him book up a list of books to read. The game is going to really get him out there even more.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> I think Jason's profile is getting bigger. A friend of mine who's never read the character used him while playing the newest Batman game and ever since then he can stop talking about him. I already have him book up a list of books to read. The game is going to really get him out there even more.


Is Lost Days included in that list?

----------


## Tony Stark

> Is Lost Days included in that list?


Yes. I loved it. He wants to know as much as possible about Jason. So I told him to read Lost Days before Under the Red Hood.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Yes. I loved it. He wants to know as much as possible about Jason. So I told him to read Lost Days before Under the Red Hood.


I loved it, as well. Really makes me want to see more of the Jason and Talia relationship. Good thing she's alive again, so maybe someone will give us a story where the two interact.

----------


## LP22

well looks like your boy will be busy in october,appearing in eternal 2 and his title not to mention that the batgirl solicitation has a mention of an old friend appearing and oddly enough so does red hood/arsenal,so lets wait and see on that one.

----------


## AJpyro

> I think Jason's profile is getting bigger. A friend of mine who's never read the character used him while playing the newest Batman game and ever since then he can stop talking about him. I already have him book up a list of books to read. The game is going to really get him out there even more.


Did you tell him to steer clear of Tynion?

----------


## Tony Stark

> Did you tell him to steer clear of Tynion?


LOL! No, but I will let him know my opinion on the run. If he wants to still give it a try, I have no problem with it as I have it if he wants to read it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Goddamn



You can preorder here

http://store.kotous.com/us-licenses/...pre-order.html

----------


## AJpyro

So I got a look at Cable and Deadpool vol 1. It was just so good and cool.

If that dynamic is the example Lobdell's going for then, YAY!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Goddamn
> 
> 
> 
> You can preorder here
> 
> http://store.kotous.com/us-licenses/...pre-order.html


Whoa. That's really nice.

----------


## Celgress

> Goddamn
> 
> 
> 
> You can preorder here
> 
> http://store.kotous.com/us-licenses/...pre-order.html


sweet, I'll be getting one  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I think I just found my early birthday present.  :Cool:

----------


## Tony Stark

> Goddamn
> 
> 
> 
> You can preorder here
> 
> http://store.kotous.com/us-licenses/...pre-order.html


Yeah I ordered mine already and i already made a place for it.

----------


## oasis1313

Day-Yum.  I gotta get one of these.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I was looking on comicartfans.com for Jason's art and found these sample pages made by Gerardo Sandoval (penciller of the Attack on Titan/Avengers oneshot)







Pretty cool stuff.

----------


## Kurtzberg

> I was looking on comicartfans.com for Jason's art and found these sample pages made by Gerardo Sandoval (penciller of the Attack on Titan/Avengers oneshot)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty cool stuff.


Nice art, but is Jason pointing a gun at Superman? Like it would actually do something? C'mon that's just stupid, he knows better than that

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nice art, but is Jason pointing a gun at Superman? Like it would actually do something? C'mon that's just stupid, he knows better than that


That scene was pretty much a pissing contest between the Outlaws and Superman. It took Isabel calling them out to ended it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh right, I've continued with the reviews

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....arsenal-1.html

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....arsenal-2.html

Let me know what do you think!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh right, I've continued with the reviews
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....arsenal-1.html
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....arsenal-2.html
> 
> Let me know what do you think!


We may not always agree on things but I have to say you write some damn fine reviews and I enjoy reading them.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> We may not always agree on things but I have to say you write some damn fine reviews and I enjoy reading them.


So glad you enjoy my reviews! I have a lot of fun wirting them. 

But is not fair for me to take all the credit, the site's owner is also my editor and he takes care of polish them before posting them on the site.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So glad you enjoy my reviews! I have a lot of fun wirting them. 
> 
> But is not fair for me to take all the credit, the site's owner is also my editor and he takes care of polish them before posting them on the site.


I figured as much but still I can tell you enjoy writing them probably as much as you enjoy RH/A and they are fun to read so I do look forward to them.

----------


## AJpyro

SO anyone got any expectations/hope arcs for later in the series?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> SO anyone got any expectations/hope arcs for later in the series?


Well, I'm sort of hoping Rose Wilson makes another appearance here at some point. I enjoyed her appearance in that last arc of RHATO and I though she had an interesting dynamic with Jason. I also think it might be fun to have Grayson make an appearance.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> SO anyone got any expectations/hope arcs for later in the series?


Not really, I'm on board with anything Lobdell throw at us

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not really, I'm on board with anything Lobdell throw at us


It's been a lot of fun thus far so I'm ready for anything he throws at us as well. I'm liking the total randomness of it but I still wouldn't mind seeing some familiar faces once in a while either.

----------


## Badou

I was thinking about something the other day. Earlier in the New 52 Lobdell introduced Jason's mom as being pregnant when Jason was younger. Would anyone be interested in Jason learning he has a younger brother that is in an orphanage or in an adopted family maybe? 

Or what about leaning that he has a younger brother and his mom isn't actually dead and maybe she remarried some type of supporting character in Gotham? I know Lobdell later confirmed that his mom died but I was trying to think of some ways to build up Jason's own personal supporting characters and that might be one way.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I was thinking about something the other day. Earlier in the New 52 Lobdell introduced Jason's mom as being pregnant when Jason was younger. Would anyone be interested in Jason learning he has a younger brother that is in an orphanage or in an adopted family maybe? 
> 
> Or what about leaning that he has a younger brother and his mom isn't actually dead and maybe she remarried some type of supporting character in Gotham? I know Lobdell later confirmed that his mom died but I was trying to think of some ways to build up Jason's own personal supporting characters and that might be one way.


Shortly before Lobdell was removed from the title, his plan was for Jason to have a little sister and eventually she would become the N52 version of Scarlet. Who knows if he's still interested on that plotline now.

----------


## AJpyro

> Shortly before Lobdell was removed from the title, his plan was for Jason to have a little sister and eventually she would become the N52 version of Scarlet. Who knows if he's still interested on that plotline now.


I can imagine many jokes with Roy and Jason raising a young new heroine. On the subject of Jason's family, the Dad is dead right? Or if is he still alive would he be working as a mook to one of the gangs like the Red Hood Gang or Penguin?

----------


## JasonTodd428

It would be interesting to see Jason with an actual blood sibling though as Dark says there's no telling if Lobdell is even still interested in doing that at this point. As for Jason's dad he died in prison according to Jay's own words so I doubt that we will see him again. It would however be nice to see them developed some sort of supporting cast for Jay though as well as some rogues of his own. I believe that things are headed in that direction now with the introduction of Tara Battleworth as a possible support character and the idea of the duo going legit. Seems like that should give Lobdell some room to grow a supporting cast and some legitimate rogues for Jason and Roy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Giving them a regular cast of rogues can be tricky. The boys don't shy away from killing so if they keep surviving the boys will look like chumps and since Starfire is out, they have to fight enemies more on a street level.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah it would be tricky because they tend to kill off potentially recurring foes but I don't think it's entirely impossible either. What if say some of the people they've killed are a part of some sort of larger criminal organization? That organization and other members could become a part of his rogues gallery even though Roy and Jason have killed a few members of it. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about here, not the standard superhero rogues gallery like Batman or Flash has.

----------


## HellHere

> Giving them a regular cast of rogues can be tricky. The boys don't shy away from killing so if they keep surviving the boys will look like chumps and since Starfire is out, they have to fight enemies more on a street level.


Did they get rid of Jason's mystical sword stuff?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yep, Lobdell HATED everythin Tynion did on the book

----------


## HellHere

Ah, thanks.

Man, I read the entire run, Lobdell, Tynion, whoever else, and I just don't remember any of it. That said, i don't remember anything of Tynions Nightwing run either, so...


Also, nice reviews on the RH/A books. i hope they keep having fun with the art like in #2.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yep, Lobdell HATED everythin Tynion did on the book


Wasn`t Jason already using those swords under Lobdel?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yes, but then they were regular blades. Tynion was the one who made them able to materialize from nowhere and all glowy at all times.

----------


## AJpyro

Wait if they were regular blades, why did Jaybird cut himself during that fight in issue 2/3?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 5 actually. And was just to boost their power, still a far cry of the "weapons of your soul" stuff that Tynion introduced.

----------


## riddler123

I did enjoy reading Second Chances over the weekend.
I didn't see the story where Jason chucks someone of a roof though. Is this to appear in another volume?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Pantalena was good but Medri is better. He just shared this sneak peek for next week RH/a 3. Just look at that detailed background

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Double post

----------


## AJpyro

> Pantalena was good but Medri is better. He just shared this sneak peek for next week RH/a 3. Just look at that detailed background


Liking it. Btw is the left side smudged or is that an effect to show him falling in fast motion?

----------


## oasis1313

> Yep, Lobdell HATED everythin Tynion did on the book


I hated everything Tynion did, too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Liking it. Btw is the left side smudged or is that an effect to show him falling in fast motion?


Medri posted it on his Instagram account

https://instagram.com/p/571OnkHsIA/

So it might be either a picture or an effect added to avoid giving too much of the art. It is a sneak peek for next week's issue after all.

Something pointed out on the FB group for the series, it seems an arrow is lodgedg on Jason's shoulder there.

----------


## RedQueen

I don't know if it's just me but I kind of wish Jason was a bit more "villainous" I guess. More of a wild card. He's an anti-hero now but I kind of miss how he wasn't afraid to throw down with the batfam.

I really hate how he's so buddy buddy with Tim. Tumblr ships the crap out those two now because of all the fuel lobdell gave them but all I see is how Tim used a crowbar on Jason at one point. The story wasn't swell and I think it's better if those two hate each other. I'd like to see him team up with the batfam only when he has too. Consider this an unpopular opinion but I don't mind the relationship he has with Babs. I guess I enjoyed her for once actually softening up to Jason. If anyone understand what he went through at the hands of the Joker it would be Barbara. I've always considered that a link that should be addressed but no one ever touched upon before Batman Eternal. It was interesting to read though I'd accept it as a temporary thing as it seems to be.

The Batfam isn't afraid to team up with him but at the same time don't fully accept him. He's not even included on that family portrait. So I think if they're going down that route I say they should go all out that way it and actually make the batfamily distancing themselves from him more logical by making him more like his pre New 52 counterpart--Not fully though because I've enjoyed some of his New 52 characterisation. Also I like Jason when he's away from the batfam most of the time.

I like him being an anti hero a lot and I'm enjoying the new series but I think he's pre-new 52 storylines were a little juicier. Though his New 52 outfits are so much better than the stuff he war in the old verse.

Just rambling a bit because I need to express this but at the same time I know if I say this on tumblr JayTim shippers will call me homophobic despite the fact that I just don't ship brother type relationships.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't know if it's just me but I kind of wish Jason was a bit more "villainous" I guess. More of a wild card. He's an anti-hero now but I kind of miss how he wasn't afraid to throw down with the batfam.
> 
> I really hate how he's so buddy buddy with Tim. Tumblr ships the crap out those two now because of all the fuel lobdell gave them but all I see is how Tim used a crowbar on Jason at one point. The story wasn't swell and I think it's better if those two hate each other. I'd like to see him team up with the batfam only when he has too. Consider this an unpopular opinion but I don't mind the relationship he has with Babs. I guess I enjoyed her for once actually softening up to Jason. If anyone understand what he went through at the hands of the Joker it would be Barbara. I've always considered that a link that should be addressed but no one ever touched upon before Batman Eternal. It was interesting to read though I'd accept it as a temporary thing as it seems to be.


The problem with the way JayBabs was handled on Eternal is that the weren't bonding over their shared past with the Joker but because Barbara was using Jason as replacement for Dick. Add the facts that Barbara never showed any kind of interest on Jason in the N52 before Eternal and Jason stalker attitude and you have a recipe for disaster.

----------


## AJpyro

> The problem with the way JayBabs was handled on Eternal is that the weren't bonding over their shared past with the Joker but because Barbara was using Jason as replacement for Dick. Add the facts that Barbara never showed any kind of interest on Jason in the N52 before Eternal and Jason stalker attitude and you have a recipe for disaster.


I only managed to read the first half of Eternal so I didn't see this relationship/acquaintance/chance meeting go sour. But that part where she was using him as a replacement for Dick would have been a good starting point, I think. It would be weird, dynamic, and volatile. Maybe after a few team-ups in the years to come, there may have been a somewhat "civil" relationship, not romantic mind, but...civil.

Though I would rather Jason to get some team-ups with Cassandra instead.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

New Red Hood AK (Red Hood 1.0) figure announced

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/che.../1100-6429767/

Just like the previous one, is exclusive to Gamestop.

----------


## Dick Grayson

> I did enjoy reading Second Chances over the weekend.
> I didn't see the story where Jason chucks someone of a roof though. Is this to appear in another volume?


That's from a later issue, Batman #424. Nothing has been solicited yet, but a collection that would bridge the gap between Second Chances and Death in the Family would be pretty cool.

I actually had this run (and then some) bound, I posted some pics and the contents here: http://comicbindingpro.com/post/1263...d-a-jason-todd

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #6
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DENIS MEDRI
Cover by HOWARD PORTER
On sale NOVEMBER 11 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Roy and Jason have been through a lot with their new start-up business, and a therapy session to vent a few grievances seems like just what the doctor ordered. Too bad Sera Phina and her team of villains are finally assembled and ready to launch their attack!

What the

----------


## kaimaciel

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #6
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DENIS MEDRI
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> On sale NOVEMBER 11  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T
> Roy and Jason have been through a lot with their new start-up business, and a therapy session to vent a few grievances seems like just what the doctor ordered. Too bad Sera Phina and her team of villains are finally assembled and ready to launch their attack!
> 
> What the


They have their old costumes back?!

Also, why would they need therapy? Did something bad happen on Gotham? Of course something bad happened in Gotham... I wonder if Jason ran into New Bruce, confronted him on being alive and Bruce just stood there and asked who Jason was. I don't think Alfred told any of the Robins about Bruce's return and amnesia and I'm pretty he didn't tell Bruce about his four sons. 

This is gonna hurt.

----------


## HellHere

Nice to see the old costuems, but omg, that hood...

----------


## The World

Might just be an artist mistake on the old suits being there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is probably symbolic. I mean, not only the old costumes are back, you have dead people like Suzie Su and Palette on the cover as well.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I agree that it's probably symbolic. Still it's a nice cover and I am looking forward to the issue.

----------


## Kalethas31

the old costumes are the best

----------


## Badou

Still don't like the nose and lips detailed on the mask. It just looks weird to me, but I guess they want him to seem less like a villain so they gave the mask facial features.

----------


## HellHere

I think it's because they want to be able to show some emoting. But even if they drew googly eyes on the hood it would be better.

Attachment 26020

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think it's because they want to be able to show some emoting. But even if they drew googly eyes on the hood it would be better.
> 
> Attachment 26020


Is still a dumb choice. If they really wanted Jason to have some emotions then they should've gone with the domino mask and ditch the helmet entirely.

Thank god Medri's design drops the idiotic facial features.

----------


## Aioros22

They don`t need to drop anything. Do what you do with Spider Man or Deapool. Play with the eyes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They don`t need to drop anything. Do what you do with Spider Man or Deapool. Play with the eyes.


One would thought that is what they would do but then you have things like these showing up on the comics







I mean, c'mon

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah I can understand showing the mask as a way of him being cold and emotioneless, but either pick one thing or the other. This is comics, play with the visual rules.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Anyone else read AK:Genesis?

I'm not entirely convinced on the way Tomasi's handling Jason, it hypes Jason's skills way too much but is hardly to take seriously considering Jason's actual actions on the game (I mean if he was THAT good, why he wasn't a proper foe in the game?)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Anyone else read AK:Genesis?
> 
> I'm not entirely convinced on the way Tomasi's handling Jason, it hypes Jason's skills way too much but is hardly to take seriously considering Jason's actual actions on the game (I mean if he was THAT good, why he wasn't a proper foe in the game?)


Actually, I'm staying as far away from this as possible myself. I'm not a fan of Tomasi's work in general and am even less of a fan of his Batman related work.

----------


## Aioros22

> Anyone else read AK:Genesis?
> 
> I'm not entirely convinced on the way Tomasi's handling Jason, it hypes Jason's skills way too much but is hardly to take seriously considering Jason's actual actions on the game (I mean if he was THAT good, why he wasn't a proper foe in the game?)


You mean in Arkham Knight? He was the main antagonist, wasn`t it. But I havent read what Tomasi wrote yet, can you tell us more about it?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You mean in Arkham Knight? He was the main antagonist, wasn`t it. But I havent read what Tomasi wrote yet, can you tell us more about it?


*spoilers:*
Is mostly a retelling of his origin but in this version Jason met Batman by saving him from the Joker and he was actually ready to put a bullet on the Joker before Batman intervined. Then Jason is taken by the police by weapons possesion but instead of being sent to jail is enrolled on a Wayne Industries' charity program. They got him in school and Jason decides to ace on everything and make the most of the chance given to him. A huge part of this decision to spite his parents that believed nothing good would ever happen to them
*end of spoilers*

The general story is solid but even as the huge Jason fan am I, I find hard to believe half of the stuff Tomasi allows Jason to do here.

----------


## kaimaciel

I liked the issue. I only have two main issues:

This Jason is a lot colder than his comic counter part. Through the issue, Jason is showed in a lot of menacing drawings, even as he decided to study. I just hope the writers aren’t trying to convey the message that Jason was born rotten and bad to the core.

Another thing I had a problem with was the lack of familial bond between Bruce and Jason, without the father/son relationship, Jason’s motives for going after Batman will seem very weak. They need to show the bond between the two to make readers understand how regretful Bruce was when he believed he lost Jason and Jason’s feelings of hatred and betrayal for thinking that his father figure has given up on him and simply replaced him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Interesting

https://instagram.com/p/7LVYO-nsA8/

Turns out Medri did the art on issue 4, not Pantalena as the solicits claimed. And Blond is coloring this issue as well.

----------


## JBatmanFan05

I really wish DC would collect the rest of Starlin's pre-ADITF issues now that we got the fantastic Second Chances tpb.  

I custom bound Conway and Moench's run in the early 80s, so that's all of pre-Crisis Jason basically.  But hoping DC closes the tpb gaps.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I really wish DC would collect the rest of Starlin's pre-ADITF issues now that we got the fantastic Second Chances tpb.  
> 
> I custom bound Conway and Moench's run in the early 80s, so that's all of pre-Crisis Jason basically.  But hoping DC closes the tpb gaps.


I really hope they collect the rest of it as well and maybe _Second Chances_ was a step toward that end.

----------


## Aioros22

I think or want to believe it`s inevitable eventually, with Jason`s profile outside of comics growing up. It helps that the pre crisis material includes the likes of Alan Moore, Conway and Newton.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #7
> 
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> 
> Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ
> 
> Cover by HOWARD PORTER
> 
> On sale DECEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> ...


I'll be honest, this reeks of editorial mandate (and if true, gives some credence at the rumours about DC's shift due the underwhelming performance of DC YOU) We'll see I guess, I just hope they aren't scrapping Medri's Costume.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'll be honest, this reeks of editorial mandate (and if true, gives some credence at the rumours about DC's shift due the underwhelming performance of DC YOU) We'll see I guess, I just hope they aren't scrapping Medri's Costume.


I don't feel that it reeks of editorial mandate or that it gives credence that rumor at all. (Frankly, I don't lend much credence to that rumor to being with. Yes, some of the DC You books are not doing as well as they wanted and those titles may very well be canned at some point but I don't personally think we're going back to the heavy-handed editorial polices that characterized the first several years of the reboot either. As for the Bat office itself, Doyle doesn't strike me as that kind of editor anyway. The writers like him among other things so I doubt this is some kind of mandate from him.) Besides with Damian, Dick and Tim involved there's in excuse not to involve Jason as well. This is another Robin oriented event after all and he is a former "Robin" so he should be there just as he should be in _Batman and Robin Eternal_. If he wasn't then I'd imagine that there would be some complaints made. As for his costume, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The thing stands out the most for me, is the total change of tone and scope between these solicits and the info given about the event when it was revealed at the SDCC. Not only the story was supposed to deal only with Damian and the Robin gang, the Court of the Owls was utterly absent as it were Jason, Tim and Dick but most importantly, it was supposed to be limited to We Are Robin, Robin:SOB, two bookends oneshots and Gotham Academy. However, now Gotham Academy has been demoted from key part of the story to mere tie-in.

----------


## AJpyro

Oh god, its happening again! Its Nu52 Superboy all over again! It's the culling!

Btw any word on the last RHaTO trades yet?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Do you have a link to the SDCC info. As for the rest like I've said elsewhere plans do have a tendency to change over time, sometimes even organically. It could be that this was one of those times.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/...-robin-eternal

http://comicsalliance.com/dc-batman-...nal-robin-war/

Yeah, plans change all the time but B&R:Eternal remains unchanged from the announcement. You can't deny the timing is just off.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/...-robin-eternal
> 
> http://comicsalliance.com/dc-batman-...nal-robin-war/
> 
> Yeah, plans change all the time but B&R:Eternal remains unchanged from the announcement. You can't deny the timing is just off.


I still don't feel like this change stinks of "editorial mandate". Like I said in the post about Robin War, it could that they decided to make this "Robins War" more obviously a part of the whole Robin anniversary celebration going on in B&RE. I know a lot of people were complaining about Damian not being involved with the celebration event in B&RE itself. So much so that there also appears to have been a change made to Eternal as well in that Damain initially had no part in it at all (because they didn't want to interfere with things in R:SOB) yet recently they've said he will be involved in it after all. I simply think that they are wanting to make the two events more connected is all. That doesn't make it a bad thing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The cover from B&R Eternal 9.

So I guess that's it for Jason's awesome hoodie *sigh* Hope they keep the helmet at least.

----------


## HellHere

I hope they don't go all emoting helmet, but I'm kind of glad the hoodies gone, I think it made him look like a cockroach.

Or maybe it's like the last RH/A cover, and the artist just got their wires crossed.

----------


## The Whovian

> The cover from B&R Eternal 9.
> 
> So I guess that's it for Jason's awesome hoodie *sigh* Hope they keep the helmet at least.


That's a cool cover. I like Pags' artwork

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well who the hell know anymore?

----------


## Tony Stark

> Well who the hell know anymore?


What book is that going to be? So I can make sure and pick it up!

----------


## Kalethas31

> Well who the hell know anymore?


issue?????

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is Batman Superman 27

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Got this on my city's comic convention. What do you guys think?

----------


## AJpyro

> Got this on my city's comic convention. What do you guys think?


Who dat? Anime character?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Got this on my city's comic convention. What do you guys think?


Nice. Who is the other character? I've not really been keeping up with anime or manga lately.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Who dat? Anime character?





> Nice. Who is the other character? I've not really been keeping up with anime or manga lately.


Video Game character actually. Her name's Daidouji and is from the Senran Kagura series of videogames

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Video Game character actually. Her name's Daidouji and is from the Senran Kagura series of videogames


I knew it had to be either anime or video game related. I also forgot to ask who the artist was.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I knew it had to be either anime or video game related. I also forgot to ask who the artist was.


Salvador Velazquez Saldivar "Rodavlas"

----------


## AJpyro

> Video Game character actually. Her name's Daidouji and is from the Senran Kagura series of videogames


So...a random pairing pic or just something for fun?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So...a random pairing pic or just something for fun?


Those two are my favorite characters ever, so is mostly for fun

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Salvador Velazquez Saldivar "Rodavlas"


Thanks. He's got a nice style and I really like the pic. I also really like the coloring and I think it makes it a very striking piece of art. 




> Those two are my favorite characters ever, so is mostly for fun


I have a few pics hanging in my house that are similar in nature. Just favorite characters in a random pic together for fun not necessarily because I ship them.

----------


## kaimaciel

I've just read the Batman and Robin Eternal Preview. I liked it. The dialogue, the witty banter between the brothers... I really like it. My only complain is how they kept making Jason ugly when he's next to Dick. Why not make them both good looking, which they are? I know it's so the reader can tell them apart but damn! Jason's chin is so big and his face looks so bad in comparison to the other Robins.

----------


## Aioros22

I was expecting worse actually. I don`t mind a more rugged look for Jason, but I don`t think the artist cared that much about it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Eh, I've seen worse and actually a lot of the faces look a bit odd to me at times. I did like how they were all working together there though even if I'm not 100% sure about Tynion's work here. I've still got a bad taste in my mouth from his RHatO issues and I'm still trying to forget the whole Jason/Barbara nonsense he introduced in the first Eternal.

----------


## kaimaciel

Jason grew so much as a person, I'm so proud of him.

And... of course he wants the Batmobiles. Nice call back to his former origin. I always thought Jason really liked the cars  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Jason being a weels kind of guy always made sense. It`s so urban nature.

----------


## AJpyro

WOw...I am not sure how to feel about B&R: E but I liked Jason so far. GLad they got rid of that haircut he has in RH/A but now...he looks too much like Dick and TIm.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> WOw...I am not sure how to feel about B&R: E but I liked Jason so far. GLad they got rid of that haircut he has in RH/A but now...he looks too much like Dick and TIm.


I liked Jason's part there as well (I wasn't a big fan of the most of the rest of the issue though) but I wish they had drawn him with his RH/A haircut since it would have made him look different from the others.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I found Jason to be just your generic "middle jerk brother", none of the nuance or depth he has on RH/A nor RHATO

----------


## Aahz

> I've just read the Batman and Robin Eternal Preview. I liked it. The dialogue, the witty banter between the brothers...


 In comparison with his own series, Jason smiling and goofing around seems out of character for me. That usually Roys part.

And they should really be more consistent with the haircuts.

----------


## Badou

> WOw...I am not sure how to feel about B&R: E but I liked Jason so far. GLad they got rid of that haircut he has in RH/A but now...he looks too much like Dick and TIm.


Yeah, this is a problem I'd like DC to try and fix. It didn't used to be as bad as Dick usually had longer hair and you could tell them apart a little easier, but it is weird seeing what looks like copies of the same person with just slightly different heights. What if Jason cut his hair really short (sort of like what Superman has now) to differentiate him a bit more? Jason sort of strikes me as someone that would buzz his hair rather than get it professionally cut.

----------


## AJpyro

> Yeah, this is a problem I'd like DC to try and fix. It didn't used to be as bad as Dick usually had longer hair and you could tell them apart a little easier, but it is weird seeing what looks like copies of the same person with just slightly different heights. What if Jason cut his hair really short (sort of like what Superman has now) to differentiate him a bit more? Jason sort of strikes me as someone that would buzz his hair rather than get it professionally cut.


That brings up 2 questions:

1) Does Jason seem like the type to care about his appearance? I mean I'm sure Alfred would've instilled some grooming tips and ways unto the boy but after the whole being dead thing, Jason would flip flop on what he wanted to do and just keep it buzz cut, kinda like Kaine in Scarlet Spider? 

2) When he came back via Lazarus Pit, didn't it alter him physically? I'm not sure where it was in continuity but didn't Ras's white hair or so result from his dips?

----------


## HellHere

> That brings up 2 questions:
> 
> 2) When he came back via Lazarus Pit, didn't it alter him physically? I'm not sure where it was in continuity but didn't Ras's white hair or so result from his dips?


Yeah, Jason used to have a little white tuft, but that got wiped in the reboot. Shame because it was another easy way to tell them apart. 

Maybe they could bring back his mystical tattoos and then just keep him topless.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, Jason used to have a little white tuft, but that got wiped in the reboot. Shame because it was another easy way to tell them apart. 
> 
> Maybe they could bring back his mystical tattoos and then just keep him topless.


I thought that white streak was wiped a bit before the reboot actually. Something about it making him look to old I believe it was. I can't recall the last time I even saw him drawn with the white in his hair. 

They could simply restore his hair to the color it was originally when they introduced him. If he had auburn hair that would make him stand out from the others. Or perhaps they could just tint it red and by tinting I don't mean him having red tips or or streaks or anything like that. Just give the black a bit of red tint to it like black dye is starting to come out of his hair.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I thought that white streak was wiped a bit before the reboot actually. Something about it making him look to old I believe it was. I can't recall the last time I even saw him drawn with the white in his hair. 
> 
> They could simply restore his hair to the color it was originally when they introduced him. If he had auburn hair that would make him stand out from the others. Or perhaps they could just tint it red and by tinting I don't mean him having red tips or or streaks or anything like that. Just give the black a bit of red tint to it like black dye is starting to come out of his hair.


Ugh no. Having him dye his hair was a terrible, terrible idea.

Besides is kind of a moot point when most of the time he's wearing the helmet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ugh no. Having him dye his hair was a terrible, terrible idea.
> 
> Besides is kind of a moot point when most of the time he's wearing the helmet.


What I was suggesting is for his black hair to have red highlights so that when the light hits it just right its more red then black not that he's dying his hair black.

----------


## Aahz

> I thought that white streak was wiped a bit before the reboot actually. Something about it making him look to old I believe it was. I can't recall the last time I even saw him drawn with the white in his hair. 
> 
> They could simply restore his hair to the color it was originally when they introduced him. If he had auburn hair that would make him stand out from the others. Or perhaps they could just tint it red and by tinting I don't mean him having red tips or or streaks or anything like that. Just give the black a bit of red tint to it like black dye is starting to come out of his hair.


He had the white streak only Hush (but this was partly Clayface) and when Morrison did this ugly red Hair Retcon.

And the pre crisis Jason had originally  black hair, making his hair red doesn't make much sense imo.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I thought that white streak was wiped a bit before the reboot actually. Something about it making him look to old I believe it was. I can't recall the last time I even saw him drawn with the white in his hair. 
> 
> They could simply restore his hair to the color it was originally when they introduced him. If he had auburn hair that would make him stand out from the others. Or perhaps they could just tint it red and by tinting I don't mean him having red tips or or streaks or anything like that. Just give the black a bit of red tint to it like black dye is starting to come out of his hair.


The white streak was removed because it made him look older, but I think a good artist could make it work without making Jay look old (look at Rogue from the X-men or the million fanarts on the internet, they manage to pull it off). One of my head canons is that Jason still has the white streak, but dies it black because a guy with a white streak is not very usual and people would remember that detail. 

I like the black hair way better than the Red one. I was pissed when Jason was drawn as a red head before the reboot. It's like the writers forgot which origin they were using (the red head Jason was an acrobat, the black haired Jason was the tires' thief), either they didn't care about continuity or they really wanted Jason to be the evil red headed middle child.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Well this is what he originally looked like. The crimson hair indeed came out of nowhere.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He had the white streak only Hush (but this was partly Clayface) and when Morrison did this ugly red Hair Retcon.
> 
> And the pre crisis Jason had originally  black hair, making his hair red doesn't make much sense imo.


I don't remember seeing the white hair when Morrison had him as a red head. I'm gonna have to check on that. Oh and Jason wasn't black haired back in the pre-crisis days. (See the pic that Durarara posted above my post.) If I'm remembering correctly he dyed his hair that way because Dick had been black haired and thought it would be better if he had the same look as the previous Robin. After that point artists just started drawing him with the black hair. 




> One of my head canons is that Jason still has the white streak, but dies it black because a guy with a white streak is not very usual and people would remember that detail.


That's my head canon as well and for the same reason.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Well this is what he originally looked like. The crimson hair indeed came out of nowhere.


Pfff! That outfit is hilarious! He looks like one of Santa's helpers with all that red and green! Ah well, at least he's wearing pants.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't remember seeing the white hair when Morrison had him as a red head. I'm gonna have to check on that. Oh and Jason wasn't black haired back in the pre-crisis days. (See the pic that Durarara posted above my post.) If I'm remembering correctly he dyed his hair that way because Dick had been black haired and thought it would be better if he had the same look as the previous Robin. After that point artists just started drawing him with the black hair.


Sorry I wanted to write *post* crisis.

And pre and post crisis Jason is a completely different characters, and have nothing in common besides the name. Mixing them doesn't makes much more sense than mixing both Batwomans (who also share the name Katherine Kane).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Sorry I wanted to write *post* crisis.
> 
> And pre and post crisis Jason is a completely different characters, and have nothing in common besides the name. Mixing them doesn't makes much more sense than mixing both Batwomans (who also share the name Katherine Kane).


Ah, I thought that's what you might have meant. I do that sometimes too.  :Smile: 

I wasn't talking about mixing them though, at least not in the sense of merging the two characters together completely. I was just pointing out other ways they could make him distinguishable from the others when he's not in a costume .

----------


## madrox83

Picked up Grayson 12 and B&R Eternal 1 and really enjoyed it. Love Red Hood in these and still think Jason Todd has had the best characterization in New 52. Will be picking up singles for Robin War in addition to my regular Red Hood Arsenal and will be picking Eternal up in trade.

----------


## kaimaciel

http://www.newsarama.com/26277-nycc-...rse-panel.html

_"The entire panel said their favorite Robin was Dick Grayson, and least favorite was Jason Todd."_ the Bat Universe Panel NYCC 2015 which consists of Snyder, Capullo, Tynion, Seeley, King, and Tomasi.

They're entitled to their opinion but this is sad... specially since they're all the major Batman title writers of the moment.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Another good reason to keep Jason with the Superman office.

----------


## Aioros22

> http://www.newsarama.com/26277-nycc-...rse-panel.html
> 
> _"The entire panel said their favorite Robin was Dick Grayson, and least favorite was Jason Todd."_ the Bat Universe Panel NYCC 2015 which consists of Snyder, Capullo, Tynion, Seeley, King, and Tomasi.
> 
> They're entitled to their opinion but this is sad... specially since they're all the major Batman title writers of the moment.


This is awesome news. If Jason as a character in the reboot gets this much crossover time and market appearances (under most these writers no less) by being the "Robin" they prefer less (key word: he`s just *prefered less* as Robin than the other 3 by these creators - not disliked), then imagine how it would be if it wasn`t the case. Especially when some fanbase (Tim and Dick) already feel that their favorites were put a bit in the backdoor by Jason. And with some great panel moments to boot too. 

Probably better this way, otherwise we would been having "Jason is a Mary Sue" threads every month here. It`s like dating folks. I don`t care what they say as long most of his appearances are good and they have been.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason being not liked as Robin is why Red Hood worked. And just because they didn't like him much as Robin doesn't mean they don't like him now as Red Hood.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s pretty much it. Publishing wise he was also Robin considerably less than Dick, Damian and Tim, so he doesn`t have an extended identity with it like the others. I do (and that`s me) consider him as iconic in the role solely for having being "the" Robin in Batman`s most daring decade (late 70`s - from Dick to Jason to the 80`s) and experimental stories. Jason was Robin in the Cult, Killing Joke (technically, even if he doesn`t appear), 10 Nights of The Beast, Death In The Family, The Dark Knight Returns, The Arkham Asylum (mention - appearance in the original draft by Morrison), etc.

----------


## Aahz

> _"The entire panel said their favorite Robin was Dick Grayson, and least favorite was Jason Todd."_ the Bat Universe Panel NYCC 2015 which consists of Snyder, Capullo, Tynion, Seeley, King, and Tomasi.
> 
> They're entitled to their opinion but this is sad... specially since they're all the major Batman title writers of the moment.


I think thats kind of strange if you consider that Dick stopped being Robin in 1983. And his story were hardly that good.

----------


## nj06

> http://www.newsarama.com/26277-nycc-...rse-panel.html
> 
> _"The entire panel said their favorite Robin was Dick Grayson, and least favorite was Jason Todd."_ the Bat Universe Panel NYCC 2015 which consists of Snyder, Capullo, Tynion, Seeley, King, and Tomasi.
> 
> They're entitled to their opinion but this is sad... specially since they're all the major Batman title writers of the moment.


Poor Jason. He's grown on me over time and I like that he is mostly good now. I think it would be great if he and Luke Fox could become friends. I feel they might get a long well with one another and it would be great to see Luke again. Although Luke may have a problem with the fact that Jason kills people.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think thats kind of strange if you consider that Dick stopped being Robin in 1983. And his story were hardly that good.


He`s got the longest association with the role. He created it, after all. 

No need for "poor Jason" here, they obviously like him for multi-appearances and his profile as Red Hood only keeps growing. By proxis even his profile as Robin is being extended with the Arkham games and the possible role in the upcoming movie.

So what if they liked him less as Robin than the other mains? Big deal. I prefer they like him best where he`s the most marketable.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'm not fussed about it myself. A lot of people didn't care for him as Robin anyway. There are plenty of people out there that are proud to have voted for him to die back then even. Frankly, having creators that feel that way doesn't surprise me at all. Also, like others have said, it doesn't mean that they don't like him as Red Hood.

----------


## AJpyro

As long as I have a place to read about Jay in some quality stories, I'm good.

----------


## Aahz

> He`s got the longest association with the role. He created it, after all.


I know, but he wasn't robin in a long time and there are hardly any iconic stories with him as Robin (and hardly any that 100% canonic).






> No need for "poor Jason" here, they obviously like him for multi-appearances and his profile as Red Hood only keeps growing. By proxis even his profile as Robin is being extended with the Arkham games and the possible role in the upcoming movie.


That has nothing to do with poor Jason, I'm just wondering why everyboddy liked Dick as Robin best.

And on the other hand liking a character has nothing to do with not writing him good. 
Jim Starlin for example hated the Concept of Robin but gave Jason a better treatment than many authors that came later, in a Death in the Family there are actually one or to pages about how good Jason was, and in his whole run you find nothing about Jason being incomptent or not as good as Dick.

And I think Tynion said at one point that he was a big fan of Tim Drake but, despite Tim didn't get any good showings in Batman Eternal.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That has nothing to do with poor Jason, I'm just wondering why everyboddy liked Dick as Robin best.


Probably because he was the first and longest running Robin. Most people even these days still thing of Grayson when they hear the name Robin and back when they killed off Jason a lot of people were mad because they believed that Dick was the Robin that had been killed. (Yeah, I know it had been awhile since he had been Robin by that point but still.) My favorite Robin is Jason but I'm in the minority on that one.

----------


## joybeans

> I know, but he wasn't robin in a long time and there are hardly any iconic stories with him as Robin (and hardly any that 100% canonic).


Dark Victory, Robin Year One, The New Teen Titans...

----------


## Aahz

> Dark Victory, Robin Year One, The New Teen Titans...


- In the New Teen Titans he is all ready an adult, and he isn't Bruce side kick anymore (he is basically Nightwing in anything but the name), so I don't rally see it as a classic Robin story
- In Dark Victory he is only, in the last few issues, and I'm still not sure it is really canonic (the whole style is to different from the main comic series) and there are origin storys which have a much bigger focus on Dick than Dark Victory
- Robin Year One is actually a good Robin story

It's similar with Barbara Gordon, appart from Batgirl Year One, there are hardly any great storys about her time as Batgirl

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

I just wish we could've gotten an annual, showing him and Bruce on a mission, as well as showing their troubled relationship. 

Really tho, they just need to do a OGN version of the Nu52 version of UtRH. Written by NOT Lobdell, or Tynion. Give it to Cullen Bunn, and he'd kill it; he's better than the previous two mentioned anyways. Just read Magneto, to see a sympathic extremist done right. I wouldn't mind Warren Ellis either, if he's available.

On art, I'd say try to get Declan Shalvey, when he's free from Injection. Nate Bellegarde would be cool too. 

If we/I can't get that, then maybe a Jason Todd/Robin II: Year One, done by Remender and Craig (Deadly Class).

Honestly tho, if the rumors are true, and Red Hood/Jason is going to be part of The Batman, or a sequel, then we'll get these types of stories anyways.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> - In the New Teen Titans he is all ready an adult, and he isn't Bruce side kick anymore (he is basically Nightwing in anything but the name), so I don't rally see it as a classic Robin story


Well, the people on the panel probably see differently, given that he actually WAS Robin and not at all Nightwing at the time.




> - In Dark Victory he is only, in the last few issues, and I'm still not sure it is really canonic (the whole style is to different from the main comic series) and there are origin storys which have a much bigger focus on Dick than Dark Victory
> - Robin Year One is actually a good Robin story
> 
> It's similar with Barbara Gordon, appart from Batgirl Year One, there are hardly any great storys about her time as Batgirl


Batgirl Year One is another title that prominently featured Dick Grayson as Robin. As are all the Ra's Al Ghul stories of the 70s. Dark Victory, like everything else in Flashpoint not being canon anymore probably doesn't matter a great deal. And all the Batman/Superman/Robin team ups of Golden Era. He was there for the formation of the Justice League. He was the Robin of the 60s show. As well the first seasons of the 90s cartoon.

----------


## Aahz

> I just wish we could've gotten an annual, showing him and Bruce on a mission, as well as showing their troubled relationship.


This and one for Barbara and Tim please (I would also take an 80 Page Giant or a mini series). The relationship between them and Bruce is still so vague in the new 52.

----------


## AJpyro

> I just wish we could've gotten an annual, showing him and Bruce on a mission, as well as showing their troubled relationship. 
> 
> Really tho, they just need to do a OGN version of the Nu52 version of UtRH. Written by NOT Lobdell, or Tynion. Give it to Cullen Bunn, and he'd kill it; he's better than the previous two mentioned anyways. Just read Magneto, to see a sympathic extremist done right. I wouldn't mind Warren Ellis either, if he's available.
> 
> On art, I'd say try to get Declan Shalvey, when he's free from Injection. Nate Bellegarde would be cool too. 
> 
> If we/I can't get that, then maybe a Jason Todd/Robin II: Year One, done by Remender and Craig (Deadly Class).
> 
> Honestly tho, if the rumors are true, and Red Hood/Jason is going to be part of The Batman, or a sequel, then we'll get these types of stories anyways.


Huh. I would like Cullen Bunn to take over the book if Lobdell decides to go. Maybe after a status quo changer issue, not an event!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Bunn really dropped the ball with both Sinestro and Lobo so no, I don't want him near Jason. Better get Taylor on board.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Bunn really dropped the ball with both Sinestro and Lobo so no, I don't want him near Jason. Better get Taylor on board.


Uh...that's why I said read his Magneto title. His Sinestro run is still going good, imo opinion, even if #15 was pretty meh. Also, Lobo and Sinestro, are basically villains, and he writes them completely different than he does Magneto, which is more inline with what a Red Hood book would be; a sympathetic/understandable anti-hero.

I also wouldn't mind Warren Ellis because he can do really fun small scale stories.

Still, I don't see how Bunn getting his hands on Jason would be a bad thing. A lot of people are ready for a shift in tone on these Jason titles, and, while I agree that Bunn would have to lighten it up a little, he'd inject some new life into Jason. Him, or Ellis.

----------


## AJpyro

> Uh...that's why I said read his Magneto title. His Sinestro run is still going good, imo opinion, even if #15 was pretty meh. Also, Lobo and Sinestro, are basically villains, and he writes them completely different than he does Magneto, which is more inline with what a Red Hood book would be; a sympathetic/understandable anti-hero.
> 
> I also wouldn't mind Warren Ellis because he can do really fun small scale stories.
> 
> Still, I don't see how Bunn getting his hands on Jason would be a bad thing. A lot of people are ready for a shift in tone on these Jason titles, and, while I agree that Bunn would have to lighten it up a little, he'd inject some new life into Jason. Him, or Ellis.


Any rec. Warren Ellis stories? SOmething that would convince me that he would be a good writer for Jason?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Any rec. Warren Ellis stories? SOmething that would convince me that he would be a good writer for Jason?


I'd say read the first 6 issues of his recent Moon Knight run. They're all one-shots, in a semi-noir style. Compared to the small stories we've got in RH/A, I'd say that the MK ones were more entertaining. RH/A only has 4 issues, so the first 4-6 issues of Moon Knight seem a fair comparison. The art also helps; you'll see why I want Declan Shavley on a Red Hood book, when you see how he does the action.

I wouldn't even mind the fun tone as much, if it was written as well/smart as Hawkeye, and if it tried new ways of storytelling like Hawkeye did.

I still find RH/A better than RHatO, but it could be much better..., or different, I guess. I just want more personal, and impactful, stories with Jason. Something the League of Assassin's story could've been if written by someone, other than Tynion.

----------


## kaimaciel

Do you guys think we'll ever see Jason in a DC animated movie again? Under the Red Hood was successful, right? Why are they skipping both Red Hood and Red Robin on the New 52 animated movies while Damian just keeps showing up?

Then again, Bad Blood is their version of the Battle for the Cowl, so maybe Jason should stay as far away from that movie as possible.

----------


## Aahz

It would be cool if he would get an appearance as Robin in Killing Joke, since the original story is set directly before A Death in the Family.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What the hell

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #8
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ
Cover by LEONARDO MANCO
Adult Coloring Book Variant cover by SCOTT McDANIEL
On sale JANUARY 13 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Red Hood and Arsenal and—Joker’s Daughter?! As the boys deal with their newfound success as a rent-a-hero company, a new crop of catastrophe puts Jason and Roy to the test! But with a new hire like Joker’s Daughter, who needs enemies?




SINESTRO #19
Written by CULLEN BUNN
Art and cover by BRAD WALKER and ANDREW HENNESSY
Adult Coloring Book Variant cover by DEREC DONOVAN
On sale JANUARY 20 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
The Pale Bishop has declared a holy war on all emotion—and his minions are about to invade Earth! Only the power of fear stands against them. In an attempt to bolster his defensive line, Sinestro has dispatched yellow rings across our world, adding many heroes and villains to the ranks of the Sinestro Corps!

----------


## Aioros22

So we`ll have Jason interacting with Joker`s daugther, Bane, Cass, Superman and now having a Sinestro ring. Color me interested. 

Editorial office (s) sure love using him around.

----------


## Aioros22

> Do you guys think we'll ever see Jason in a DC animated movie again? Under the Red Hood was successful, right? Why are they skipping both Red Hood and Red Robin on the New 52 animated movies while Damian just keeps showing up?
> 
> Then again, Bad Blood is their version of the Battle for the Cowl, so maybe Jason should stay as far away from that movie as possible.


The recent crop of animated Batman features haven`t felt special of late, do I don`t mind he`s off them.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So we`ll have Jason interacting with Joker`s daugther, Bane, Cass, Superman and now having a Sinestro ring. Color me interested. 
> 
> Editorial office (s) sure love using him around.


It IS interesting but still totally out the left field.

It still bugs to no end that they can't agree on a suit for the covers though

----------


## HellHere

BREternal #03 previews up on Nerdist. Seems it's Jays turn to look like a dunce.

----------


## Aioros22

They made Jason look effective as I believed they would. 

You have Jason flat out mention how he can read Cassandra reading him (which is a better skill statement than saying how better he may be than her or not), mention how he`s rusty (kinda casual about it too, Hong Kong movie dust wipe style) after Cassandra surprises him with the kick and being smart in using weapons he encorporates around for the advantage.

That`s the Budd/Kill Bill scene I described it would happen.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It IS interesting but still totally out the left field.


Yeah, it's all pretty much out of left field but still interesting. I can't wait to see what's in store for Jaybird in the coming months.

----------


## sghood

> BREternal #03 previews up on Nerdist. Seems it's Jays turn to look like a dunce.


he's actually about to kill her in the preview lmao

----------


## bat_girl_cc

He's about to kill her, and if we discount the "surprise kick" he doesn't even gets touched once he gets serious, and in one lousy page he's about to kill Cassandra Cain, until Grayson comes in for the rescue, the same Cass that flatned Grayson on issue 1, now iam seeing things, or one Cass seems to be better than the other?

----------


## Aioros22

> He's about to kill her, and if we discount the "surprise kick" he doesn't even gets touched once he gets serious, and in one lousy page he's about to kill Cassandra Cain, until Grayson comes in for the rescue, the same Cass that flatned Grayson on issue 1, now iam seeing things, or one Cass seems to be better than the other?


That A-B-C logic makes little sense. Grayson and Jason didn`t fought, Cass and Jason did and both have different abilities. Like Jay says, he was also trained to be an assassin.

----------


## kaimaciel

Do you guys think Roy is gonna leave Jason after Titans Hunt?

----------


## king of hybrids

> Do you guys think Roy is gonna leave Jason after Titans Hunt?


considering their retconning Donna's origin even as the finches are writing it, possibly?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Do you guys think Roy is gonna leave Jason after Titans Hunt?


I don't think so myself but who really knows. There is, however, no reason that Roy can't continue appear in RH/A even if he is also making appearances in another title connected to the Titans. He could even be a regular in both for that matter. Other characters make multiple appearances across several books so I don't see a problem with Roy doing so. Heck, Jason himself is doing so as well speak. I wouldn't worry to much about it.

----------


## K. Jones

I wonder if they'll let Jason kill off that Joker's Daughter character. That'd give him some closure, right? Permanently wiping the grin off of the face that killed him? (Even if that face is sewn to a different person's body.) It was a nice moment when Babs got to take her down easy in that Killing Joke parody in Eternal.

I think it could be fun if she as a Joker fangirl took umbrage against his theft of the Red Hood moniker, too. But yeah; Dear DC ... let Jason put a couple bullets in her. She's a pointless character.

----------


## Godlike13

> I wonder if they'll let Jason kill off that Joker's Daughter character. That'd give him some closure, right? Permanently wiping the grin off of the face that killed him? (Even if that face is sewn to a different person's body.) It was a nice moment when Babs got to take her down easy in that Killing Joke parody in Eternal.
> 
> I think it could be fun if she as a Joker fangirl took umbrage against his theft of the Red Hood moniker, too. But yeah; Dear DC ... let Jason put a couple bullets in her. She's a pointless character.


Actually they should have them hook up  :Cool: . I mean how crazy would that be.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Actually they should have them hook up . I mean how crazy would that be.


Jay has higher standards.

----------


## joybeans

> Actually they should have them hook up . I mean how crazy would that be.


It'd be perfect. Hooking up with your enemy's daughter. Except she's not his daughter, and Joker doesn't give a shit about her.

----------


## Aioros22

Don`t really see the appeal or care about that character myself. It`s only there to push the Joker/Jason relationship now that Joker is gone for the 2637273th time.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Don`t really see the appeal or care about that character myself. It`s only there to push the Joker/Jason relationship now that Joker is gone for the 2637273th time.


I don't see the appeal either. 

So what did you guys think of Roy in _Titans Hunt_? I didn't like it myself. It actually gave me flashbacks to the time when he fell back into his addiction after Lian was killed which lead to the destruction of his character. It was not a good feeling at all and it turned me off to the whole book and the writer too.

----------


## Godlike13

> It'd be perfect. Hooking up with your enemy's daughter. Except she's not his daughter, and Joker doesn't give a shit about her.


Meant to be. Just imagine him waking up next her, the scene would be pure entertainment. Make it happen DC  :Cool:

----------


## sghood

always wondered how jason would react to jokers daughter or harley quinn. empathy? hatred? maybe some pity? i know he tried to save her in final crisis so it'll be interesting how new52/dcyou whatever the hell it is now

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

On the other hand, what if Jason wants to give her a second chance? He did offer the same to Underbelly.

And yes, Titan's Hunt was HORRIBLE. Abner destroyed Roy's development for cheap drama

----------


## JasonTodd428

> On the other hand, what if Jason wants to give her a second chance? He did offer the same to Underbelly.
> 
> And yes, Titan's Hunt was HORRIBLE. Abner destroyed Roy's development for cheap drama


I could see him wanting to try giving her a second chance but I'm not so sure she'd take it. If she did though it would make for an interesting dynamic.

As for Titan's Hunt, I really felt it was making a oblique reference to the character he was before the reboot and I could have done without any reference to that period. Frankly, DC destroyed his character for the sake of edgy drama back then and to see it being referenced again was a real slap in the face to me. It was such an out of character move that it threw me completely out lf the story.

----------


## AJpyro

I saw Titans Hunt. I like the shape of the story. As for Roy...I honestly don't know.

In this age of Story>Continuity, This could probably be a Roy created solely for TH. While in RH/A, things could progress and any mention of TH, could never be made.

As for the Joker's Daughter thing...plot twist: It's actually Scarlet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I saw Titans Hunt. I like the shape of the story. As for Roy...I honestly don't know.
> 
> In this age of Story>Continuity, This could probably be a Roy created solely for TH. While in RH/A, things could progress and any mention of TH, could never be made.
> 
> As for the Joker's Daughter thing...plot twist: It's actually Scarlet.


Well his portrayal in TH rubbed me the wrong way mainly because he's sobriety has been such an important deal to him. I really don't see him throwing it away over something like this. It just seems to me to have been done for the drama of it and to reference a period in his existence  pre-reboot that was better left unremarked upon.

Joker's Daughter being Scarlet... now that would be quite the plot twist. Make it happen DC.

----------


## Aioros22

Loebdell handles Roy better. 

Yeah, I said it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Loebdell handles Roy better. 
> 
> Yeah, I said it.


I never doubted that

----------


## kaimaciel

My prediction: Titans Hunt is gonna be another comic that completely ignores both Red Hood and the Outlaws and Red Hood and Arsenal, just like Starfire. They'll ignore and never address what Roy has been through on those titles and neither Jason or Kori will be mentioned, not even around Dick. 

It would be nice of them to at least have Dick ask Roy how Jason is doing, or being all awkward because they dated the same girl, but I'm guessing they're just gonna pretend RHaTO and RH/A never happened, like they're ashamed of the title.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Loebdell handles Roy better. 
> 
> Yeah, I said it.


I agree with you there and the worst of it is people actually like "drunk" Roy better.




> My prediction: Titans Hunt is gonna be another comic that completely ignores both Red Hood and the Outlaws and Red Hood and Arsenal, just like Starfire. They'll ignore and never address what Roy has been through on those titles and neither Jason or Kori will be mentioned, not even around Dick. 
> 
> It would be nice of them to at least have Dick ask Roy how Jason is doing, or being all awkward because they dated the same girl, but I'm guessing they're just gonna pretend RHaTO and RH/A never happened, like they're ashamed of the title.


Well you know story over continuity and all that jazz. Still if they want to ignore _RHatO_ and_ RH/A_ then that's fine with me because I'm going to be ignoring _Titan's Hunt_. I am, however, extremely put out that once again Berganza doesn't seem to be keeping tabs on what's going on in his own editorial department. First there was that mess with_ World's End_ where they could never decide what the name of Dick's son was and now there's this complete 180 in Roy's characterization that makes no sense whatsoever with how he's been portrayed in _RHatO_ or_ RH/A_. I think it's time they find some new editors for the Superman office since they are clearly not doing their jobs. There should be some consistency of character from one book to another when a character is making various appearances in multiple titles.

----------


## sghood

didn't know how to feel about titans hunt i'll have to see how the story progresses. 100% agree that making roy fall off the wagon was just for cheap drama and an even cheaper joke. Loving b&r eternal so far, looks like a more focused story than batman eternal was. Hoping jason has some real contributions to the story instead of just comic relief but i am glad they recognized his fighting prowess

----------


## AJpyro

> didn't know how to feel about titans hunt i'll have to see how the story progresses. 100% agree that making roy fall off the wagon was just for cheap drama and an even cheaper joke. Loving b&r eternal so far, looks like a more focused story than batman eternal was. Hoping jason has some real contributions to the story instead of just comic relief but i am glad they recognized his fighting prowess


Him and Tim both.

----------


## Aahz

> Him and Tim both.


They should really publish some story about Tim and Jasons time as Robin too, especially Tims past in the new 52 needs to be more fleshed out. At least an Annual for each of them. In B&RE we will probably get only flashbacks with Dick.

----------


## king of hybrids

> It would be nice of them to at least have Dick ask Roy how Jason is doing, or being all awkward because they dated the same girl, but I'm guessing they're just gonna pretend RHaTO and RH/A never happened, like they're ashamed of the title.


isn't that because most of the writers want jason back in the ground?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is more that the Titans are toxic on the N52, so far at least.

----------


## Aioros22

> isn't that because most of the writers want jason back in the ground?


Don`t know where that came from since Jason was never a Titan in the reboot. If they did, they wouldn`t continue to expand his appeal in other titles. The issue is that "Titans chronology" has been dead for decades now. Other titles, both from the Bat and Super offices have not omited stuff from RATHO or RHAA, just because.

Of course, since Titans Hunt is about it`s own stuff and paralell versions of characters, they (or any title) aren`t automatically entitled to do so and vice versa.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> isn't that because most of the writers want jason back in the ground?


I don't think it's the writers that necessarily do but there are certainly a fair amount of fans that wish he was back in the ground because they don't like him for whatever reason. I do believe, however that there are writers that don't care to use him because they don't know what to do with him. 




> Don`t know where that came from since Jason was never a Titan in the reboot. If they did, they wouldn`t continue to expand his appeal in other titles. The issue is that "Titans chronology" has been dead for decades now. Other titles, both from the Bat and Super offices have not omited stuff from RATHO or RHAA, just because.


Personally, I don't see the harm in having Roy mention him at some point or other particularly once he encounters Dick again who has also been working with Jason. It would be a nice additional piece of world building that touches on the idea that these events are happening in a shared universe and not in a vacuum, just like having Dick working for Spyral does, or having Roy falling off the wagon (as much as I think that was a misstep on the part of the writer) or the characters having flashes of memory does. It would be nice to see a whole lot of world building here among other things because it would add weight to whatever the outcome of this story is and to the history of the Teen Titans as well. If they are going to use this as a base for future Teen Titans stories I'd certainly like for it to be as strong a base as possible. Besides having someone mention him would also be a nod to the pre-reboot Titans history since he did work with them at one point back then and it seems to me that Abnett is all about those kinds of nods. 




> Of course, since Titans Hunt is about it`s own stuff and paralell versions of characters, they (or any title) aren`t automatically entitled to do so and vice versa.


Actually it doesn't seem to be about parallel versions of the characters or at least at the moment it seems to be about the current rebooted ones. I do suppose that could change though.

----------


## Aahz

> Don`t know where that came from since Jason was never a Titan in the reboot.


Even before the flashpoint, he was only a member of the New Teen Titans (and not even a full member, he just helped them on two missions) and not on the Original Titatns that are the basis for this book.

----------


## Aioros22

> Even before the flashpoint, he was only a member of the New Teen Titans (and not even a full member, he just helped them on two missions) and not on the Original Titatns that are the basis for this book.


Don`t think I agree. He was especifically summoned by Donna when the other members were awol in different directions post Crisis. He was an active member in two missions and helped shut down Brother`s Blood church and save both Dick and Raven. It wasn`t just a two issue thing. 

Not a major member or major history, but at the very least a honorary member and accepted as such at the time. They even asked him to stay in more cases until he declined because he still had more to learn.




> I don't think it's the writers that necessarily do but there are certainly a fair amount of fans that wish he was back in the ground because they don't like him for whatever reason. I do believe, however that there are writers that don't care to use him because they don't know what to do with him.


Right, every character got detractors, especially ones who`ve had a major publicity stunt as turnpoint, but what I aim to respond to is, how come just because they don`t mention Jason in one title where Roy is in, is because "writers wish to bury him six feet under"? Where does that logic comes from? 

If the fans want Jason to keep suceeding as a character _as he has_ since the reboot, we kind of need to leave that sort of victimized mentality behind. DC isn`t being forced to use him and neither are the writers. They use him because they want to, whether they personally prefer him or any of the others. He made the leap to a full blown animated feature, references in animated series, a full blown participation in the best video game series of the franchise and now a clear reference in the upcoming movie.

Just from reading this board there are Tim, Dick and Damian detractors as well. Time to move ahead.




> Personally, I don't see the harm in having Roy mention him at some point or other particularly once he encounters Dick again who has also been working with Jason. It would be a nice additional piece of world building that touches on the idea that these events are happening in a shared universe and not in a vacuum, just like having Dick working for Spyral does, or having Roy falling off the wagon (as much as I think that was a misstep on the part of the writer) or the characters having flashes of memory does.


Absolutely, but Jason is hardly the only character or bat character even, to suffer from this. Would it hurt? No, but is that really necessary to the story being told here? Maybe that changes in the coming issues, but so far I don`t think so. 




> Actually it doesn't seem to be about parallel versions of the characters or at least at the moment it seems to be about the current rebooted ones. I do suppose that could change though.


I kind of went by the inclusion of Donna as "Wonder Girl" in the covers. I don`t expect every character to be like that and Roy seems the one from the reboot character wise.

----------


## Aahz

> I kind of went by the inclusion of Donna as "Wonder Girl" in the covers. I don`t expect every character to be like that and Roy seems the one from the reboot character wise.


I thought it was part of the main new 52 Earth, jsut that the characters somehow remember whet happened in other realities.

I just wonder if they can make it work with the rebootet characters (with the new 52 Teen Titans and Birds of Prey it didn't really worked). But in Roys case it is not Necessary bad to use the reboot version, the techgenius stuff he has now an other role in the team and is not so much in Dicks shadow as before.




> Don`t think I agree. He was especifically summoned by Donna when the other members were awol in different directions post Crisis. He was an active member in two missions and helped shut down Brother`s Blood church and save both Dick and Raven. It wasn`t just a two issue thing.


But he never lived with the rest of the team at the tower or had interaction with them besides the missions (and the New Teen Titans was devoted much screen time to the out of costume live of the Titans).

----------


## Tony Stark

> Right, every character got detractors, especially ones who`ve had a major publicity stunt as turnpoint, but what I aim to respond to is, how come just because they don`t mention Jason in one title where Roy is in, is because "writers wish to bury him six feet under"? Where does that logic comes from? 
> 
> If the fans want Jason to keep suceeding as a character _as he has_ since the reboot, we kind of need to leave that sort of victimized mentality behind. DC isn`t being forced to use him and neither are the writers. They use him because they want to, whether they personally prefer him or any of the others. He made the leap to a full blown animated feature, references in animated series, a full blown participation in the best video game series of the franchise and now a clear reference in the upcoming movie.
> 
> Just from reading this board there are Tim, Dick and Damian detractors as well. Time to move ahead.


Beautifully stated! I was going to say something basically like this, but you stated it a lot better than I would. Thanks.

----------


## Aioros22

> I thought it was part of the main new 52 Earth, jsut that the characters somehow remember whet happened in other realities.
> 
> I just wonder if they can make it work with the rebootet characters (with the new 52 Teen Titans and Birds of Prey it didn't really worked). But in Roys case it is not Necessary bad to use the reboot version, the techgenius stuff he has now an other role in the team and is not so much in Dicks shadow as before.
> 
> But he never lived with the rest of the team at the tower or had interaction with them besides the missions (and the New Teen Titans was devoted much screen time to the out of costume live of the Titans).


True, but Jason was already having brief interactions in Wayne manor with Starfire a bit before the Crisis. In his first mission, not only he interacts plenty with Hawk, he got intimate moments with Donna and Roy, being the first to figure out what was going on between him and Cheshire. 

The reason I don`t count him a full member in any incarnation of the team is exactly because of what you say, but he interacted with them on a personal level and he was asked to join, so Honorary sounds well with me.




> Beautifully stated! I was going to say something basically like this, but you stated it a lot better than I would. Thanks.


Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it.

----------


## Aahz

> True, but Jason was already having brief interactions in Wayne manor with Starfire a bit before the Crisis. In his first mission, not only he interacts plenty with Hawk, he got intimate moments with Donna and Roy, being the first to figure out what was going on between him and Cheshire.


 But the interaction was during the mission, and technically appart from Donna every one who participated on this mission was not a regular team member around this time.




> The reason I don`t count him a full member in any incarnation of the team is exactly because of what you say, but he interacted with them on a personal level and he was asked to join, so Honorary sounds well with me.


 Honorary member sounds right.
Btw. I think it was also implied that he and Danny Chase were in contact with each other.




> If the fans want Jason to keep suceeding as a character _as he has_ since the reboot, we kind of need to leave that sort of victimized mentality behind. DC isn`t being forced to use him and neither are the writers.


I'm not sure if that's completely true. Especially in Batman Eternal I had the feeling that some characters were only included since it was marketed as an event that features the whole Bat-family. Tim, Jason and Luke didn't had really relevant roles in the whole story, and some other appearances felt really forced (for example El Gauchos and Batwomans part in the South America subplot).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> According to our sources, the basic plotline of Affleck’s solo Batfilm is that Jason Todd has returned from the grave as the Red Hood, working in the shadows to make people think he's Batman, while making Batman look like a criminal. At the same time he leaves clues about his identity for Bruce/Batman to ultimately solve, leading to a confrontation that will involve Batman, Red Hood, and yes, The Joker, who will feature as a primary villain alongside Red Hood."
> 
> "Naturally, the question will come up about whether or not Red Hood will be referenced as the second Robin and if Dick Grayson, the first Robin will play a role. According to our sources, Grayson is now Nightwing and will be referenced but not seen in Batman V Superman. However, Grayson is expected to show up in the solo Bat-film, assisting Batman in his battle against Red Hood and The Joker."


http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/excl...s-involved-298

This would be perfect it were true

----------


## JasonTodd428

> http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/excl...s-involved-298
> 
> This would be perfect it were true


 :Cool:  I really hope it's true. Jason needs more exposure in other media since very often they have skipped him entirely in favor of Tim. His character was merged with Tim's in BTAS, he's never mentioned in TT (except for the board that listed his name as a possible ID for Red X) and the time skip in YJ resulted in his death already having happened. UtRH was the first time he'd made an appearance at all in any DC media outside of comics and he has had a couple of game appearances since then. I'd say it's about time he made a live action appearance.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I really hope it's true. Jason needs more exposure in other media since very often they have skipped him entirely in favor of Tim. His character was merged with Tim's in BTAS, he's never mentioned in TT (except for the board that listed his name as a possible ID for Red X) and the time skip in YJ resulted in his death already having happened. UtRH was the first time he'd made an appearance at all in any DC media outside of comics and he has had a couple of game appearances since then. I'd say it's about time he made a live action appearance.


DC better not screw up! They better not screw Jason's character up! Other than that... YES!!!!!!!!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> DC better not screw up! They better not screw Jason's character up! Other than that... YES!!!!!!!!


Yeah, if this is true and not just a rumor then they darn well better not screw this up.

----------


## Aioros22

> I really hope it's true. Jason needs more exposure in other media since very often they have skipped him entirely in favor of Tim. His character was merged with Tim's in BTAS, he's never mentioned in TT (except for the board that listed his name as a possible ID for Red X) and the time skip in YJ resulted in his death already having happened. UtRH was the first time he'd made an appearance at all in any DC media outside of comics and he has had a couple of game appearances since then. I'd say it's about time he made a live action appearance.


Batman:TAS = Jason Todd with Tim`s name. 

Batman Forever: Grayson origin with Jason Todd street attitude. 

Batman rise: All 3 together. 

Teen Titans: His name always pops up because of Red X

Young Justice: He was mourned with others who fel in battle. 

Batman: The Red Hood: Full featured animated movie. 

Batman: Arkham Knight: Antagonist. 

BatmanxSuperman: Cameo and potentially later appearance. 

For a character who spent more than a decade dead, they haven`t scrapped him that much. The fact he`s unique in the family in more than one category makes it hard to scrap altogether because òf the higher realistic/urban background that I`m sure is even more appealing outside of comics.

----------


## Aahz

> Batman:TAS = Jason Todd with Tim`s name. 
> 
> Batman Forever: Grayson origin with Jason Todd street attitude. 
> 
> Batman rise: All 3 together. 
> 
> Teen Titans: His name always pops up because of Red X
> 
> Young Justice: He was mourned with others who fel in battle. 
> ...


You should add:

Arrow: Jason Todd with Roy Harpers name

And even if you look at Fan Films he appears more often than Tim and Damian

Btw.: I think it would be great if they would manage to include Barbara and the Killing Joke too in that live action movie.

----------


## AJpyro

I believe this image encapsulates RH fans:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Pretty damn cool.

Still, I'm sad since it seems the hoodie is gone for good  :Frown: 

I wonder if retiring it had to be with  Medri's departure from DC.

----------


## Godlike13

Who's that tiny middle age man under Jason's arm?

----------


## byrd156

> You should add:
> 
> Arrow: Jason Todd with Roy Harpers name
> 
> And even if you look at Fan Films he appears more often than Tim and Damian
> 
> Btw.: I think it would be great if they would manage to include Barbara and the Killing Joke too in that live action movie.


Roy was nothing like Jason in Arrow, the closest he got was when the Mirikuru made him crazy.

----------


## Aahz

> Roy was nothing like Jason in Arrow, the closest he got was when the Mirikuru made him crazy.


 He was not like Red Hood, but very close to a live action version Jason Todd as Robin.

He is a criminal, from the worst part of the town,  who had to support his vertigo addicted mom and had anger issues.  Thats much more similar to Jason than to any version of Roy I know of.

----------


## SpiderWing20

> Pretty damn cool.
> 
> Still, I'm sad since it seems the hoodie is gone for good 
> 
> I wonder if retiring it had to be with  Medri's departure from DC.


Where is this from

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He was not like Red Hood, but very close to a live action version Jason Todd as Robin.
> 
> He is a criminal, from the worst part of the town,  who had to support his vertigo addicted mom and had anger issues.  Thats much more similar to Jason than to any version of Roy I know of.


There's also the fact Roy went as Jason after feigning his death. Just an easter egg but still, it makes you think.




> Where is this from


Bermejo's twitter

----------


## HellHere

I can't lie, I loved the leather so I'm happy to see it back, but I'm not really feeling the Iron Man gold detail on his mask.

----------


## Aahz

They had the leather jacket on the cover but the new costume in the interior art. So I wouldn't see this a sign that they change it back.

But hopefully that Ironman style opening of the helmet from B&R Eternal, doesn't reappear.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's the full cover

----------


## Tony Stark

> Here's the full cover


WOW! Thanks for sharing that Dark_Tzitzimine. I am so hyped for Robin Wars. Jason Todd and Dick Grayson are 2 of my all time favorite characters and I'm looking forward for this event were it will revolve heavily around them. This will be the first time I've collected comics that my pull list will have more DC than Marvel.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Here's the full cover


Wow. Is it gonna be "good Robins" vs "bad Robins"? I don't think I've ever seen Jason and Damian on the same side. Basically, everyone is facing their predecessor or replacement.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Here's the full cover


Nice cover. Thanks for posting it Dark_Tzitzimine. Well now I'm really excited for this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

there's something amusing and ironic about this team up. In a sense, it feels like Clark is being a stand in for Bruce. 

Putting aside the fact the colorist forgot (AGAIN) to color red the hoodie, Jason's looking badass here.



A little too buff maybe but still badass.

http://www.craveonline.com/art/92192...mansuperman-26

----------


## JasonTodd428

> there's something amusing and ironic about this team up. In a sense, it feels like Clark is being a stand in for Bruce. 
> 
> Putting aside the fact the colorist forgot (AGAIN) to color red the hoodie, Jason's looking badass here.
> 
> 
> 
> A little too buff maybe but still badass.
> 
> http://www.craveonline.com/art/92192...mansuperman-26


I'm really looking forward to this issue and Jay looks great to me.

----------


## AJpyro

> there's something amusing and ironic about this team up. In a sense, it feels like Clark is being a stand in for Bruce. 
> 
> Putting aside the fact the colorist forgot (AGAIN) to color red the hoodie, Jason's looking badass here.
> 
> 
> 
> A little too buff maybe but still badass.
> 
> http://www.craveonline.com/art/92192...mansuperman-26


I should check this out. Jay does look a bit silly but I'm guessing that's the padding against the cold.

----------


## Aioros22

He looks just like in Eternal. 

I enjoy the way Pak handles interactions, so I`m waiting for this badass baby to be in my hands.

----------


## Aahz

I'm wondering if Jason would be able to depower and kill Savage, wasn't his immorality also somehow connected to the powers of the Untitled?

Btw. I really prefer the gray pants over the green ones.

----------


## AJpyro

So in the latest RH/A, Jason has taken on the chance of redeeming/fixing Joker's Daughter: a character no one cared about.

I like it. And who knows, Lobdell might be able to make a slightly interesting history for her. And if he can bring back the other characters from RHatO, then I'd be happy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kogXMPbp7qY

The jacket is back.

Also, Robin War is going to be a trainwreck.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/11...ew-dark-knight

Oh man.




> Nearly thirty years ago, Frank Miller introduces us to an older, far more wizened Batman late in his career. But the newest Dark Knight project, Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade, will take us back to over ten years before this classic work, when Batman was still actively fighting crime with his previous Robin, *Jason Todd, at his side, revealing the previously untold story of how Jason met his end in Frank Miller’s Dark Knight universe* and featuring the first appearance of Miller’s Joker since his death in The Dark Knight Returns.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Also, Robin War is going to be a trainwreck.


I disagree with that but then again I was looking forward to Robin War far more then I was looking forward to BRE. From what I've seen so far of RW it looks pretty solid. I can't say the same for BRE even though there have been parts I liked. At the very least I like the cast involved in RW, which isn't the case for BRE where I'm not liking one third of the "main" cast much at all. 




> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/11...ew-dark-knight
> 
> Oh man.


Thank God I'm not interested in Frank Miller's Batman anyway. This sounds terrible.

----------


## sghood

liked how jason in the last BRE was the one saying "we need to trust each other" because dick as much as he never wants to be in batmans shadow will always do what he asks and will keep secrets he knows he shouldn't but jason doesnt follow anything blindly anymore and i felt like he was almost trying to convince him not to continue the cycle of distrust misinformation. Him being the one having the mostly level head is pretty interesting. so tim got the call from mother i don't know if him and jason will deal with it in the next issue or that'll be mothers ace up her sleeve later on. jason vs orphan has to happen soon, i feel like showing him being focused and level headed early on in the story and then finally letting him go all out towards the end in a serious fight to the death with orphan would be awesome. 
just read RH/A and im hoping jokers daughter isnt going to be like a new scarlet or something because that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth lol

----------


## Aioros22

> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/11...ew-dark-knight
> 
> Oh man.


The only shocker is that it won`t live up to expectations, but other than that, we already know what happened. Just now "how". 

Miller actually wrote Jason respectably in his work, unlike Dick Grayson. I`m not too worried.

----------


## Aahz

Im just wonder which Jason Miller will use, since TDKR returns was afaik written before Jasons origin was changed.

----------


## Aioros22

It was after Barr`s run, so its up for grabs. But as long you can tell its Jason, it`s fine with me.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Neal Adams' variant for RH/A 9

----------


## AJpyro

> Neal Adams' variant for RH/A 9


Roy: Aw come on Jay! It was just a jo-

Jason: DO! NOT! EAT! MY! BREAAAAD!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'll keep being utterly baffled at the way they keep using Jason's two costumes on the covers.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Roy: Aw come on Jay! It was just a jo-
> 
> Jason: DO! NOT! EAT! MY! BREAAAAD!


Pfft. That was funny.

----------


## AJpyro

> I'll keep being utterly baffled at the way they keep using Jason's two costumes on the covers.


So I read that Robin War preview and I gotta ask, what is with the disconnect between costumes?

BM&R:E, SM&BM, and RH/A he's got the hoodie.

But in Robin war, he's got the old jacket back? What the dealie?

----------


## kaimaciel

> http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2015/11...ew-dark-knight
> 
> Oh man.


Is Bruce gonna call Jason "retarded" too? Or will he learn his lesson with Dick? Hmm...

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So I read that Robin War preview and I gotta ask, what is with the disconnect between costumes?
> 
> BM&R:E, SM&BM, and RH/A he's got the hoodie.
> 
> But in Robin war, he's got the old jacket back? What the dealie?


I'm guessing the artist likes the old costume better than the new one. (Frankly, I think it's the better costume myself.) I don't think it's that big a deal myself.

----------


## Aioros22

> Is Bruce gonna call Jason "retarded" too? Or will he learn his lesson with Dick? Hmm...


Bruce called him a good soldier and someone who honored him. Dick was recalled in the sequel as not having the chops for it. 

I think that kind of hints at being post crisis Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kogXMPbp7qY
> 
> The jacket is back.
> 
> Also, Robin War is going to be a trainwreck.


I`ll see where this goes. It got some potential.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's the basis for the variant



I alos compiled most of the covers used as basis for the rest of the variants, if anyone's curious http://imgur.com/a/9cpng

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #9
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ
Cover by ED BENES
Variant cover by NEAL ADAMS
On sale FEBRUARY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
In “Harmed and Dangerous” part two, Roy, Jason and Joker’s Daughter are locked in mortal combat with the evil Charon beneath the streets of Gotham City! But things in the “Nethers” get really crazy when Joker’s Daughter attempts to save the day herself! Is she crazy-brave…or just plain crazy?

DC take the hoodie if you must, but please, PLEASE don't bring back the stupid expressive helmet

----------


## kaimaciel

Personally, I think only Medri made the new costume work, other artists make him look... worst. Maybe it would be better to revert to the old costume, it's cool with every artist.

But yeah... the expressive helmet should rot in hell.

----------


## AJpyro

I want the new costume and expressionless helmet back. It's the look the movie and the original costume is based on. 

Plus it looks cooler.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I want the new costume and expressionless helmet back. It's the look the movie and the original costume is based on. 
> 
> Plus it looks cooler.


You mean the hoodie or the jacket?

I have to say that after Medri's costume, seeing Jason wearing a full gray body suit makes him look kind of plain and unremarkable. The contrast given by the cargo pants (whther grey or green), the belts and the shin guards/kneepads made him look way, way better.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Personally, I think only Medri made the new costume work, other artists make him look... worst. Maybe it would be better to revert to the old costume, it's cool with every artist.


I agree. None of the other artists have managed to make the new costume look as good as Medri does when he draws it. Most of the time they just make it look overly bulky. Now I've always preferred the old costume to the new one but at least Medri drew the new one well. If the next artist on the book doesn't want to use that design I'd much rather they go back to the previous one instead of creating yet another look for him so soon though. At least it's recognizable as Jason's and it's pretty easy to draw as well.

----------


## Starchild

When it comes to Jason and Roy's friendship: Do you think that it's forced? Is it believable? Could it use a little more work?

I personally think they could've been friends in the Pre-52 universe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> When it comes to Jason and Roy's friendship: Do you think that it's forced? Is it believable? Could it use a little more work?
> 
> I personally think they could've been friends in the Pre-52 universe.


That seems a little difficult considering pre-N52 Jason stance about drugs.

----------


## Starchild

> That seems a little difficult considering pre-N52 Jason stance about drugs.


Oh. I wasn't aware of that. I'm very new to Jason Todd, but not that new. I read his appearances in Search For Ray Palmer and a bunch of other things. But the N52 is when I got 100% invested into the character.

----------


## AJpyro

> You mean the hoodie or the jacket?
> 
> I have to say that after Medri's costume, seeing Jason wearing a full gray body suit makes him look kind of plain and unremarkable. The contrast given by the cargo pants (whther grey or green), the belts and the shin guards/kneepads made him look way, way better.


I meant the hoodie and expressionless helmet. That's cooler.

In other news, I just put in an order for RHatO vol 6.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Oh. I wasn't aware of that. I'm very new to Jason Todd, but not that new. I read his appearances in Search For Ray Palmer and a bunch of other things. But the N52 is when I got 100% invested into the character.


Pre N52 Jason wasn't that much of a bad guy but he was very self-centered and somewhat narrowminded when it came to crime and illegal activities. Something else to consider is at what point they could've meet. Before the whole Rise of Arsenal" non sense they could've been civil to each other but once Roy falls of the wagon (shortly before Flashpoint) both are gone too much off the deep end

----------


## Aahz

"Rise of Arsenal" happened after "Battle for the Cowl" were Jason character was already destroyed.

Before this there was a chance. They worked together in the Titans and fought together against Cheshire when she revealed Lians existence to Roy. And I think they even met shortly when Dick and Roy were leading the Outsiders. I think around this time a friendship was possible.
After Rise of Arsenal and Battle for the Cowl they were so out of character thats hard to say what would have been possible.

Btw. Jason just killed dealers that sold drugs to Kids, and was iirc in the drug business during his crime lord days.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And as B&R Eternal 7 we're back to the old costume. Just...just tell me you guys don't see a mouth on the helmet. PLEASE

----------


## AJpyro

I couldn't do it. I couldn't go through with getting the Tynion RH. I just bought vol 6 with Lobdell's return. My need for chronological books is gonna be murder for weeks now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I couldn't do it. I couldn't go through with getting the Tynion RH. I just bought vol 6 with Lobdell's return. My need for chronological books is gonna be murder for weeks now.


I wish I hadn't gotten it but I have every freaking issue even though I hated it.

----------


## Tony Stark

> there's something amusing and ironic about this team up. In a sense, it feels like Clark is being a stand in for Bruce. 
> 
> Putting aside the fact the colorist forgot (AGAIN) to color red the hoodie, Jason's looking badass here.
> 
> 
> 
> A little too buff maybe but still badass.
> 
> http://www.craveonline.com/art/92192...mansuperman-26


Man that looks awesome! What book is this from? Also is that Dick on the far right?

----------


## AJpyro

> I wish I hadn't gotten it but I have every freaking issue even though I hated it.


I do hope we at least get Chesire back.

----------


## DragonPiece

I stopped caring abotu Jason's outfit continuity, I promise you guys will feel better as well.

----------


## AJpyro

> I stopped caring abotu Jason's outfit continuity, I promise you guys will feel better as well.


That's kinda been my go-to place for small issues and other things.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I do hope we at least get Chesire back.


I was hoping to see her join up with Jason and Roy actually. I liked the interactions between her and Roy a whole lot and not just because I like the two of them together. They just bounced off each other so well and I loved their banter.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I stopped caring abotu Jason's outfit continuity, I promise you guys will feel better as well.


I don't much care about it either way either.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Pretty awesome cover although is a bit jarring having pre N52 Jason using his N52 counterpart's costume.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Pretty awesome cover although is a bit jarring having pre N52 Jason using his N52 counterpart's costume.


Whoever drew this doesn't really know much does he? Dick and Tim haven't used those costumes in years and Damian ditched that look months ago. Nice drawing though.

----------


## HellHere

I've a voice of dissent, but I prefered the leather coat and Nightwing's blue to both of their n52 costumes, so this cover looks pretty good to me.

----------


## AJpyro

> Pretty awesome cover although is a bit jarring having pre N52 Jason using his N52 counterpart's costume.


Overall like this cover. Prefered Dick's Blue design to his red. The red made him look edgy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Whoever drew this doesn't really know much does he? Dick and Tim haven't used those costumes in years and Damian ditched that look months ago. Nice drawing though.


That's the point. They're supposed to be the Pre N52 boys.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It's official, we're back to Rocafort's costume. 



https://www.instagram.com/p/-bR-drmo...%22ogexp%22%5D

----------


## AJpyro

Just got RHatO vol 6 today. Now it for vol 7.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> It's official, we're back to Rocafort's costume. 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/-bR-drmo...%22ogexp%22%5D


Thank god. The new look wasn't a good one in the first place, even if Tony Daniel did it some justice in Eternal.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> When it comes to Jason and Roy's friendship: Do you think that it's forced? Is it believable? Could it use a little more work?
> 
> I personally think they could've been friends in the Pre-52 universe.


It's believable that these versions of them could be friends, but I think their interactions are forced, and the comedy on Roy's part is definitely forced.

I'm just not a fan of this more not serious approach. It doesn't help that they're teaming up with the Joker's Daughter soon...ugh. 

I think it's time to change up writers. Go get Warren Ellis to write this book, he's a much better writer, much better at dialogue, and better at weird than Lobdell.

----------


## sghood

just read the BRE 9 preview and i think they should switch out roy for tim drake or at least have a team up miniseries or something because i dont know if it would work long term. the banters great, some good emotional stuff and character development can happen plus having 2 robins working together regularly or semi regularly is something new for dc to play with. just have wondergirl lead the titans or soemthing. and im pumped for this bane rematch, im hoping its not some bullshit fight though and if JPV shows up and we have jason beating up bane and a crazy sword fight with JPV would be awesome. 
options for fantasy outlaws/outsiders? team members: jason, roy, rose wilson, cheshire, terra, starfire, harley quinn, static shock, bunker, raven, jade, black bat, miss martian, geo force, vibe, red devil, bombshell, red star, jesse quick, blue beetle (jaime reyes), amethyst, damage. lol its a lot but a good bunch of people to pick from

----------


## sghood

Also people need to chill with costume/mask stuff its all the artists perception and maybe he just has different outfits, he's never been one for costumes anyway so it makes sense that a lot of his gear could be different types especially since we know he steals a lot of tech. the "spoils of war" lol. i do prefer no expression on the "hood" but it does break all the time. i'd even be cool with having his mouth exposed like the bat cowl/ og red robin cowl

----------


## kaimaciel

I would like to propose a toast for Jason's white streak brief return on Grayson #15! Merry Christmas!  :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*

Mabry so we could JSUT 


> I would like to propose a toast for Jason's white streak brief return on Grayson #15! Merry Christmas!


I prefer that as a way to tell them all apart since despite being adopted these boys do look related to each other
But I thought the gray was a side effect of him coming back to life, so is it JSUT. Style choice, when did jason get so trendy

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #10
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ
> Cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> On sale MARCH 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Terror in D.C.! When Red Hood and Arsenal hit the nation’s capital, trouble is not far behind! But believe it or not, battling H.I.V.E. terrorists aboard a battleship in the Potomac isn’t the biggest challenge facing our heroes. The true challenge will be whether Joker’s Daughter can survive therapy!







> DEATHSTROKE #16
> Written by JAMES BONNY
> Art and cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> Variant cover by CHRIS BURNHAM
> On sale MARCH 23 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Aww yeah—it’s Deathstroke versus Red Hood! If Slade Wilson wants to find his missing daughter, he’ll need to escape the sights of the deadliest Bat-family member of them all. Who’s behind all the firepower being thrown at Deathstroke? Stay tuned for the answer!


Kirkham draws such an amazing Red Hood, seriously is that hard to not draw a freaking mouth on the helmet?

I'd liked to see him draw the hoodie though.

----------


## AJpyro

> Kirkham draws such an amazing Red Hood, seriously is that hard to not draw a freaking mouth on the helmet?
> 
> I'd liked to see him draw the hoodie though.


Holy crap! I can't wait for the new year! Dat art!

----------


## Aahz

Is the new 52 Deathstoke series good?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is the new 52 Deathstoke series good?


Is just dumb action movie stuff. Is pretty fun if you don't mind the liberties they took with Slade (like make him younger). Keep in mind that was with Daniels as writer, this issue is a new guy though

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Holy crap! I can't wait for the new year! Dat art!


Unfortunately, Kirkham is only doing cover art for RH/A.

Fortunately, a better artist (in my opinion) as taken the reigns from Medri! Javier Fernandez! This guy is awesome!

Here's a taste of what he can do, courtesy of the recent, and GREAT, Magneto solo (which is also written by Cullen Bunn...who is someone I think should replace Lobdell).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You do know Fernandez already pencilled RH/A 7, right?

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> You do know Fernandez already pencilled RH/A 7, right?


Lol, my bad. I've not read up RH/A in awhile (since #3), so I had no idea.

...

Okay, now that I've checked it out, I'm still happy with what I'm seeing...but why does he have to draw the freaking mouth?! I blame Rocafort! He started this trend.

Why can't people just let Jason's mask be great? Honestly, Rafael Albuquerque is the only one to really give us a badass RH mask, w/ the mouth IMO. As it looks like it functions just as a mask, rather than expressing Jason's emotions; tho Javier seems to be doing his best to pull that off as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

We Are Robin 7 was awesome. Bermejo nailed Jason and Tim characterization: two brothers so perfectly in synch that they know what the other needs them to do with no need of words or pointless bravado. In fact, Bermejo wrote such as enjoyable Jason, Tim and Damian that I wish WAR were a team up book with them instead of being Duke's book.

----------


## sghood

we are robin 7 was great. love jason and tim together, with having them usually paired up in the stories a team book with them would be great. also really liked dukes realization that they're not as trained and ready to be robin as they think they are. haven't been keeping up with deathstroke but the solicits say he's going after his daughter and red hoods gonna be helping him, i hope its not the usual "meets deathstroke - they fight for no reason - comes to an undertanding- helps him- the end. I'd love rose to join up with jason after because i always felt she was a better fit for the outlaws. a good love interest for jason too.

----------


## oasis1313

I wouldn't mind Rose Wilson and Jason--he's a kickass character; a kickass girlfriend would be cool for him, and a refreshing change from the hothouse flowers these guys seem to gravitate to.

----------


## Aioros22

I still think Isabel was a wasted opportunity for more grounded solo bits of Jason in an urban enviorment. She could be his escape from the mainstrean superhero acts to some street flavor. Then again that girl he met in issue #6 from the shelter could have some potential and give readers snips of Jason`s time as a kid in the streets of Gotham outside dealing with gangs.

I basically wouldn`t mind some material with Jason outside the mask, so to speak.

----------


## hero talk

I love jason todd

----------


## Starchild

Why do people want Jaybird separated from Arsenal so bad? I really like the relationship that has been established between them. Why mess up a good thing?

----------


## Aioros22

I would aim for both. No real reason not to.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Why do people want Jaybird separated from Arsenal so bad? I really like the relationship that has been established between them. Why mess up a good thing?


Because some people are nostalgic for a close friendship between Dick and Roy instead. They miss that relationship and there are a lot of people that don't like Jason so they hate the idea of him being in what is essentially Dick former position. That's just a guess though. Anyway I like that Jason has friends instead of being out there alone. I think it grounds him a little and that it's been very good for both him and Roy.

----------


## Aioros22

> Because some people are nostalgic for a close friendship between Dick and Roy instead. They miss that relationship and there are a lot of people that don't like Jason so they hate the idea of him being in what is essentially Dick former position. That's just a guess though. Anyway I like that Jason has friends instead of being out there alone. I think it grounds him a little and that it's been very good for both him and Roy.


No point in bringing character hate into this. By posts made on the subject, there`s some who would prefer Jason to be a more Punisher type of character and others the way he currently is. Since I see him as obviously 3-dimensional with a different background than Frank, he can actually work both.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> No point in bringing character hate into this. By posts made on the subject, there`s some who would prefer Jason to be a more Punisher type of character and others the way he currently is. Since I see him as obviously 3-dimensional with a different background than Frank, he can actually work both.


Sure he can work both ways but only if the writers involved in a "more Punisher type" of character actually had some firm direction they wanted to take Jason in besides being some kind of one note villain for Batman and if they wanted to make him a 3-dimensional character while doing so instead of the 1-dimensional character we ended up with pre-reboot. That's where they went wrong with that sort of angle before the reboot and why the character began to stagnate. All they ever did was tell the same story with different players each time because they hadn't established any sort of clear direction for him beyond the"hey, lets turn him into a villain with daddy issues" angle they were running with back then.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Amazing

https://twitter.com/onjm_k/status/681849527742038016

----------


## AJpyro

> Amazing
> 
> https://twitter.com/onjm_k/status/681849527742038016


Okay did JD put something in Jason's drink? Cause I could more of this. I need more laughs.

----------


## hero talk

I want more jason todd toys there aren't any :Confused:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I want more jason todd toys there aren't any


Talking about action figures, there's the Limited Edition from the Hush line, the Gatman from the Batman Reborn line and Red Hood from the N52 line. Jason's Arkham Knight version is the version with more figures available: the Play Arts Kai one, and from DC Direct you can get him on as the AK, as the Red Hood or as the "proto" Red Hood from the end of the game. Keep in mind most of those figures are out of print and fetch a pretty high price on most web stores/auction sites.

----------


## Aioros22

> Sure he can work both ways but only if the writers involved in a "more Punisher type" of character actually had some firm direction they wanted to take Jason in besides being some kind of one note villain for Batman and if they wanted to make him a 3-dimensional character while doing so instead of the 1-dimensional character we ended up with pre-reboot. That's where they went wrong with that sort of angle before the reboot and why the character began to stagnate. All they ever did was tell the same story with different players each time because they hadn't established any sort of clear direction for him beyond the"hey, lets turn him into a villain with daddy issues" angle they were running with back then.


I don`t disagree with any of that, I`m just saying that bringing up "hate" is kinda 90`s, even if some (Dick/Jay) fans might, in relation to him and Roy. If we want the character to kep growing as he has, the fandom needs to look ahead and play Frozen`s #letitgo

Play it out and play it proud  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> Amazing
> 
> https://twitter.com/onjm_k/status/681849527742038016


Me gusta eso!

----------


## kaimaciel

> Sure he can work both ways but only if the writers involved in a "more Punisher type" of character actually had some firm direction they wanted to take Jason in besides being some kind of one note villain for Batman and if they wanted to make him a 3-dimensional character while doing so instead of the 1-dimensional character we ended up with pre-reboot. That's where they went wrong with that sort of angle before the reboot and why the character began to stagnate. All they ever did was tell the same story with different players each time because they hadn't established any sort of clear direction for him beyond the"hey, lets turn him into a villain with daddy issues" angle they were running with back then.


YES! Thank you!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Fan-made Red Hood web series takes aim at Kickstarter campaign*
> 
> After experimenting for the past two and a half years with trailers and test footage, filmmakers Luke Watson and David Sartin have decided to “get serious” about their Red Hood Retcon web series. To that end, they’ve launched a $20,000 Kickstarter campaign to transform the fan project into “a legitimate web series.”
> 
> 
> A glance at some of the earlier trailers and clips shows just what the two have been able to accomplish without any real budget. But with $20,000, they plan to tell the story of Jason Todd’s return to Gotham after a lengthy absence to investigate the disappearance of Batman.
> 
> “Our story begins many years after Jason Todd’s resurrection,” the filmmakers explain in their campaign video. “This is going to be a much older and experienced version of Jason Todd. In fact, our story is completely original, and has never been told.”
> 
> http://robot6.comicbookresources.com...rter-campaign/


Costume looks somewhat goofy but I'm intrigued by their plot outline, most fanstuff can't resist giving their own spin at the events of Under The Red Hood and thus, something that is starting to feel a little stagnant (specially Jason's characterization). They promise a more mature and experienced Jason plus, they mention him teaming up with Roy, making the whole proposal a lot more interesting. 

Hopefully they won't get into trouble with WB laywers though.

----------


## Tony Stark

> I want more jason todd toys there aren't any


I got the Hush Jason Todd and the one were he wore the red pill helmet that Morrison had him in. I also have the game one. They don't make a lot of Jason Todd figures which is a crying shame. I just ordered my Red Hood Kotobokta and I already have the spot picked where to put him in.

----------


## AJpyro

Oh guu~ys:

http://www.instocktrades.com/TP/DC/R...CALL/OCT150260

Yep. It's finally here. We've reached the end of one road. Now we can move to the next.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Gerardo Borges? What issue did he pencilled? I only remember Derenick, Silva and Kollins

----------


## AJpyro

> Gerardo Borges? What issue did he pencilled? I only remember Derenick, Silva and Kollins


He did RHatO 35 apparently. He came in when Lobdell came back.

----------


## oasis1313

I like it when Jason is totally kicking butt.

----------


## Aioros22

> Costume looks somewhat goofy but I'm intrigued by their plot outline, most fanstuff can't resist giving their own spin at the events of Under The Red Hood and thus, something that is starting to feel a little stagnant (specially Jason's characterization). They promise a more mature and experienced Jason plus, they mention him teaming up with Roy, making the whole proposal a lot more interesting. 
> 
> Hopefully they won't get into trouble with WB laywers though.


The proposal in the writing of a more mature and seasoned Jason sparks my interest. As far as I am concerned, with these projects, the plot (characters-characterization), edition and camera work are what makes me watch them. Costumes are something you kind of gloss over because they are dependable on not only creativity but particularly budget.

----------


## AJpyro

> Costume looks somewhat goofy but I'm intrigued by their plot outline, most fanstuff can't resist giving their own spin at the events of Under The Red Hood and thus, something that is starting to feel a little stagnant (specially Jason's characterization). They promise a more mature and experienced Jason plus, they mention him teaming up with Roy, making the whole proposal a lot more interesting. 
> 
> Hopefully they won't get into trouble with WB laywers though.


It does look interesting.

----------


## Aahz

I really hate how negative Jasons time as Robin is described in many books, here are for example some scans from the "Essential Batman Encyclopedia", were lots stuff is written that never happened like this in the Comics or was even completely the opposite like:
Jason being difficult to trainHaving no athletic skillDick being obedientDick seeing Jason as a problemJason being barley tolerated by the Teen TitansBruce having to restrain and explain Jason why things are done in a particular way on multiple occasions


And they really write nothing positive about him and his time as Robin and don't even mention for example his part in "the Cult" ...

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is just the revisionism DC put Jason over the years. As Batman popularity grew, it became inacceptable for him to be at fault fo anything so, Jason became the source of his own demise.

----------


## RedQueen

I hate when people blame Jason's death on himself. It was tragic and he was trying to get and find his mother. Like he was young kid trying to get to his parent and it ended horribly. I don't know how Jason's death got the stigma that it was his own fault cause to me it doesnt really reflect that.  Though some choice words between numerous characters and narratives make me side eye when they mention it was his fault in comics since his death.

----------


## Aahz

But it is nor only about his death, in Text like this it really sounds like he was really a bad Robin, which is just not true, and some stuff is completely made up. 

He actually he "took to the training like a fish to the water", and the Titans liked him.

----------


## Aioros22

How old is that Encyclopedia.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> How old is that Encyclopedia.


The failure thing has been tied to Jason for as long as I can remember.

----------


## Aahz

> How old is that Encyclopedia.


It's from 2008.

----------


## Aioros22

> The failure thing has been tied to Jason for as long as I can remember.


Not by every writer, but yes, I know they tried their best. 




> It's from 2008.


Long enough. It`s been a reboot and some Aahz. Let it go  :Wink:  

2008 was fresh out of the original UTRH and they wanted to keep selling the contrasting aspects to the _extreme_. Since then he`s been expanded to the larger public and media and by proxis the franchise itself.

"We" _won_ folks. Keep that in mind.

----------


## AJpyro

I did it guys. I got the full Lobdell run of RHatO. It is good.

DSCF1149.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Fantastic job.

I was surprised at how big the final volume felt compared to previous volumes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

We have new variant!



I'm grateful to see Medri's costumes again but I can't help to wonder why they're only used in the variants. I mean, it won't be more logical to pick the way characters actually look within the book?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Meh. I'm happy to see the book getting a variant here of course but I really, really don't care much for Romita's art on this one.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m glad we are getting more variants and Romita is up there when it comes to laying out sequences. That`s an unusual Bow grab, tho.

----------


## HellHere

Amused that Jason's guns aren't even half the size of Punisher Graysons.




> I mean, it won't be more logical to pick the way characters actually look within the book?


Tbf, sometimes variants don't seem to have any grasp on the character, let alone their costumes. These were probably done before the costume change though.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #11
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ
> Cover by LEONARDO MANCO
> Variant cover by JOHN ROMITA, JR. and KLAUS JANSON
> On sale APRIL 13 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Business is booming for Red Hood and Arsenal! With a major win in their column, Jason and Roy have finally gotten the respect they deserve—but what will “going legitimate” mean for Joker’s Daughter? Skeletons from the closet emerge in “Dancing with the Devil” part two!


Oh man, this sounds amazing

Also, Lobdell is writing Titan's Hunt on April

----------


## AJpyro

> Oh man, this sounds amazing
> 
> Also, Lobdell is writing Titan's Hunt on April


Sweet. Though...why Titans Hunt?

----------


## doolittle

Is Romita's Roy played by Chip Gaines from Fixer Upper?

33ffb8e3a5d548071bd980e5fa20e02e.jpg

----------


## sghood

So after what happened to jason in b&re do you think that'll affect how he is in RH/A? Kinda seems like they're really pushing the tim/jason partnership, I don't know if an ongoing will ever be in the cards but a cool mini with just them would be awesome "brothers in red" or some shit lol. hoping jason shows up in grayson at some point. I wonder if titans hunt will have any lasting consequences. hate how roys shown as a drunk again, i know they sort of explained the weird dreams as the cause but with how good of friends jason and roy have become i feel like him not going to him for help about it is so dumb. not to sure how i feel about jokers daughter yet, clearly he's got a soft spot for jokers victims. would love to see them go around picking up misfit characters from the dc for a  new outlaws/outsiders team.

----------


## Aioros22

> Amused that Jason's guns aren't even half the size of Punisher Graysons.
> 
> 
> 
> Tbf, sometimes variants don't seem to have any grasp on the character, let alone their costumes. These were probably done before the costume change though.


Almost certainly. No artist, no matter how fast - and Romita is indeed fast - would be able to do all those variants (pencils+inks) in such a short recent notice on top layout work.

----------


## The Conductor

I'm not sure how I feel about the Bat-elements to Jason's costume. I'm speaking about the vambraces and the chest logo mostly. On one hand, it makes him feel part of the larger Batfamily like he's part of Batman Inc. On the other, I feel like it holds him back where as I'd like to see Jason move on from his anguish and be his own man.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm not sure how I feel about the Bat-elements to Jason's costume. I'm speaking about the vambraces and the chest logo mostly. On one hand, it makes him feel part of the larger Batfamily like he's part of Batman Inc. On the other, I feel like it holds him back where as I'd like to see Jason move on from his anguish and be his own man.


Jason HAS moved from his anguish and is his own man on RH/A.

----------


## AJpyro

So I just finished RHatO vol 6-7. Good reads but you can tell that there was a sense of rushing. But besides that there was some good emotional turmoil and I was super glad to get a roy centric issue. Now if he could just get an arc.

I was also happy to see Ducra get mentions and that Essence was still out there. Love those 2 as a part of Jason's mythos.

----------


## The Conductor

> Jason HAS moved from his anguish and is his own man on RH/A.


He doesn't dress like it though, was my point.

----------


## AJpyro

> He doesn't dress like it though, was my point.


Its pretty much a matter of perspective. Issue 18 of RHatO pretty much ends the problems between Jason and Bruce and RH/A he was worried and happy to see Bruce still alive. Him wearing the shirt can also mean he's over it and can just wear the shirt.

Also he might just be too lazy to buy his own stuff and just took Dick's as a matter of convenience. Why spend money when you can get decent hand me downs?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Don't forget the suit was a gift from Kori, so it makes sense he keeps them out of respect for her.

----------


## Godlike13

Isn't his company or whatever called "Rent-A-Bat" too?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah but that is Roy being a businessman. Leeching off Batman's popularity is more profitable than leeching off GA's

----------


## AJpyro

> Yeah but that is Roy being a businessman. Leeching off Batman's popularity is more profitable than leeching off GA's


Pfffthahahahahahaha. Oh man.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Yeah but that is Roy being a businessman. Leeching off Batman's popularity is more profitable than leeching off GA's


Yeah... that's true.

----------


## Rac7d*

Is jokers Daughter staying, I mean is she repalcing Kori basicly? Why is DC still trying to push her.

----------


## AJpyro

> Is jokers Daughter staying, I mean is she repalcing Kori basicly? Why is DC still trying to push her.


Dc isn't pushing her. Lobdell just has an idea he's working towards. As for replacing Kory...maybe?

----------


## Red_Hood

ah, i like this thread.

----------


## AJpyro

Welcome. Have any fab issues of RHatO?

----------


## kaimaciel

So... Harper Row was supposed to be Dick's sucessor as the "perfect" Robin, but Bruce choose Jason instead.

Sorry Harper fans, but that makes me so happy!

----------


## AJpyro

> So... Harper Row was supposed to be Dick's sucessor as the "perfect" Robin, but Bruce choose Jason instead.
> 
> Sorry Harper fans, but that makes me so happy!


Pffft. I don't know what to say to that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So... Harper Row was supposed to be Dick's sucessor as the "perfect" Robin, but Bruce choose Jason instead.
> 
> Sorry Harper fans, but that makes me so happy!


*Eyroll* That's all I have to say about that.

----------


## joybeans

> So... Harper Row was supposed to be Dick's sucessor as the "perfect" Robin, but Bruce choose Jason instead.
> 
> Sorry Harper fans, but that makes me so happy!


Actually, Joker chose him.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Actually, Joker chose him.


 :Stick Out Tongue:  (Ten or more charas)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I never understood people fixation on that, the whole thing was handled pretty ambiguously by Lobdell and even in the case you take the freaking Joker at face value, it doesn't do anything to diminish Jason's agency. Joker coud've open the door but it was Jason the one who decided to walk through it.

----------


## AJpyro

Whatever's printed on the page is canon and canon is serious bidness. But seriously, I never gave it much thought. Like you said, It's the Joker.

Take everything with fresh purifying salt that's been made and cultivated in the Holy City.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Joker is an unreliable narrator anyway so I never took much stock in the story he told there. As far as I'm concerned he made the whole thing up and he had nothing to do with Jason becoming Robin.

----------


## sghood

yeah it's the joker, never take anything at face value. and in a way it's a cool kind of "did he or didn't he" type situation. You never know maybe jason was going to be a new "orphan" type person for mother and with harper supposedly being so awesome that meant bruce needed to choose him. Maybe on the way to see harper for the first time he stops by leslie thompkins clinic for advice and that's when he see's jason stealing the prescription drugs and the rest is history.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think Joybeans was really that serious folks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Adams did a small interview on the process it went on this month's variant

http://13thdimension.com/neal-adams-...reen-all-over/

Is a pretty entertaining read.

----------


## Aioros22

> Adams did a small interview on the process it went on this month's variant
> 
> http://13thdimension.com/neal-adams-...reen-all-over/
> 
> Is a pretty entertaining read.


Awesome process intel. I like the way Adams draws the mask with the sidelines. The black background would be the easiest solution but would have sucked for the colorist. When it comes to artwork he`s a genious. When it comes to writing...humm. I wish there was a hardbound version of Odissey in pencil format, showing his original work because that`s definatly the highlight. 

Any word on Jason under Romita and Miller for DK3?

----------


## godisawesome

Okay guys, here a query: if they do some kind of Jason Todd as Red Hood in the DCEU movies, how would you do his parting with Batman? Have him die? Get brainwashed? Get recruited? We've got the burned up Robin suit in the cave, but that doesn't neccesarily mean we have the whole story...

Me, I'd go with the idea that Ra's, or preferably Tali, had already made an offer to "complete" Jason's training, and he accepted it after Joker put Babs in a wheelchair and nearly killed/fatally wounded/was about to kill him. Then he got the Lazarus Pit dip, though he may not have actually been dead in this universe. I figure it gives him a better reason to have both a believable resurrection and turn on Batman.

What do you guys think?

----------


## Aioros22

> Okay guys, here a query: if they do some kind of Jason Todd as Red Hood in the DCEU movies, how would you do his parting with Batman? Have him die? Get brainwashed? Get recruited? We've got the burned up Robin suit in the cave, but that doesn't neccesarily mean we have the whole story...
> 
> Me, I'd go with the idea that Ra's, or preferably Tali, had already made an offer to "complete" Jason's training, and he accepted it after Joker put Babs in a wheelchair and nearly killed/fatally wounded/was about to kill him. Then he got the Lazarus Pit dip, though he may not have actually been dead in this universe. I figure it gives him a better reason to have both a believable resurrection and turn on Batman.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Good one, the idea got potential, with showing up on the go how Jason`s stance in justice compares to Batman. You could still play the notion that Joker not being dead is the main point after what happened to barbara which brings Jason on a different path. 

You mentioned brainwashing and I thought right away of the Arkham Knight setup, which I`m sure was your intention. Also nice, I think and it would work on the big screen. Joker leaves enough evidence to have Bruce and Alfred believe that he`s dead...but "Joke`s on you"...he`s not! That could setup nicely a sequel adapting most of UDRH storyline without major misteps and place Jason as Red Hood redemption style versus an older Batman ala DKR.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, I just noticed that we`re up to almost the 100th page of the Appreciation Thread for Jason! Certainly something that could only have happened with the Creative changes that have come these years and the persistance of Hooders all over  :Big Grin: 


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lt...vhgyo1_500.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb...75xeo2_500.gif
http://37.media.tumblr.com/91fc01c27...k9mxo3_500.gif
http://33.media.tumblr.com/108612c99...vo4_r1_500.gif

http://memecrunch.com/meme/1LKNX/jas....png?w=500&c=1

Here`s to another kicking 100!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Okay guys, here a query: if they do some kind of Jason Todd as Red Hood in the DCEU movies, how would you do his parting with Batman? Have him die? Get brainwashed? Get recruited? We've got the burned up Robin suit in the cave, but that doesn't neccesarily mean we have the whole story...
> 
> Me, I'd go with the idea that Ra's, or preferably Tali, had already made an offer to "complete" Jason's training, and he accepted it after Joker put Babs in a wheelchair and nearly killed/fatally wounded/was about to kill him. Then he got the Lazarus Pit dip, though he may not have actually been dead in this universe. I figure it gives him a better reason to have both a *believable resurrection* and turn on Batman.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Why? Magic exists in the DECU

----------


## Aahz

I would prefer a solution where Jason doesn't die, and Bruce just thinks he is dead but if they do the resurrection thing than they should use the pit (or something else that is part of the Batman myth) and not something like the Superboy Prime reality punch.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why? Magic exists in the DECU


True but I think with the Pit being used so much in the Arrow-verse as a plot point it wouldn`t happen. They`ve made it clear (so far at least) that they want the big screen to be different than the tv format. That probably includes plot points and so.

That being said it`s just my guess. 




> I would prefer a solution where Jason doesn't die, and Bruce just thinks he is dead but if they do the resurrection thing than they should use the pit (or something else that is part of the Batman myth) and not something like the Superboy Prime reality punch.


I think the Arkham Knight type of solution works well. It`s cinematic, it doesn`t need to adhere to whether it`s magic so people don`t go anal about it and it tears the right kind of emotional wreck on both Bruce and Alfred while bringing Joker to the front whether he`s dead in the current DCAU verse or not.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not killing Jason takes a lot of the nuance of his Red Hood persona and honestly, the Arkham Knight plot was idiotic and didn't make a lick of sense. Plus, it took all kind of agency from Jason and turned him into Joker's puppet.

----------


## Aioros22

> Not killing Jason takes a lot of the nuance of his Red Hood persona and honestly, the Arkham Knight plot was idiotic and didn't make a lick of sense. Plus, it took all kind of agency from Jason and turned him into Joker's puppet.


For all purposes the AK solution gives us a death, this time with a stronger reasoning for it and not just missing in action with the costume burnt out and Joker`s message on it. This kind of story mode turning him Joker`s puppet is a valid concern, no doubt, but the big screen adaptation won`t likely dwelve in the kind of background that Jason got with training solo around the world or the All-Caste in the meantime, if it gets there. It`s too much information to process while sharing screen time with Batman and co. 

Despite being a valid concern since the point would still see him breaking whatever commands he fights against and still come up on his own, I think it would be satisfactory enough. And if the Joker isn`t dead in this movie timeline and Jason gets to be the one beating him down with a crowbar ala Winnick for poetic justice or as an easter egg, I`d be happy enough.

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## Aahz

> Not killing Jason takes a lot of the nuance of his Red Hood persona and honestly, the Arkham Knight plot was idiotic and didn't make a lick of sense. Plus, it took all kind of agency from Jason and turned him into Joker's puppet.


It has to work somehow inside the movie and make sense for people who are not familiar with the comics. And this movie should still have the feeling of a Batman movie, so they shouldn't have to much magic in it (I would be OK with the Lazarus Pit but not with the Superboy Prime Punch). I like the picture of Jason digging himself out of his grave but the explanation is a little bit problematic (in the new 52 they didn't explained it at all).

For the plot of the movie Under the Red Hood is probaly a better inspiration than Arkham Knight.

What I like about the Arkhamverse on the other hand is that Jason can kill real Batman villains there, something he can never do in the main universe, thats something he could probably also do in the DECU.

Intersting would also be how they hande the story of his death. Death in the Family not a very good story (imo the weakest of Starlin's run), I would prefer if the Joker actually had a plan for catching Jason and didn't just run into him by coincidence.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Despite being a valid concern since the point would still see him breaking whatever commands he fights against and still come up on his own, I think it would be satisfactory enough. And if the Joker isn`t dead in this movie timeline and Jason gets to be the one beating him down with a crowbar ala Winnick for poetic justice or as an easter egg, I`d be happy enough.


Why you'd think Joker is dead? We know he's alive and well in the DCCU




> What I like about the Arkhamverse on the other hand is that Jason can kill real Batman villains there, something he can never do in the main universe, thats something he could probably also do in the DECU.


Kind of a moot point when: Jason doesn't kills any villian of note, it happens off-screen (read as not during the game proper) and is in fact working in tandem with them.

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## JasonTodd428

> It has to work somehow inside the movie and make sense for people who are not familiar with the comics. And this movie should still have the feeling of a Batman movie, so they shouldn't have to much magic in it (I would be OK with the Lazarus Pit but not with the Superboy Prime Punch). I like the picture of Jason digging himself out of his grave but the explanation is a little bit problematic (in the new 52 they didn't explained it at all).
> 
> For the plot of the movie Under the Red Hood is probaly a better inspiration than Arkham Knight.
> 
> What I like about the Arkhamverse on the other hand is that Jason can kill real Batman villains there, something he can never do in the main universe, thats something he could probably also do in the DECU.
> 
> Intersting would also be how they hande the story of his death. Death in the Family not a very good story (imo the weakest of Starlin's run), I would prefer if the Joker actually had a plan for catching Jason and didn't just run into him by coincidence.


I'd say no to the Superboy Prime punch as well. I thought it was a stupid explanation for Jay's resurrection anyway. I also don't think there really needs to be a definitive explanation for it either. I'd rather they do just as the reboot did and leave the exact mechanics of his resurrection a mystery while allowing the Pit to restore his mind.

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## godisawesome

And I'd rather they have some kind of explanation; leaving it so oblique honestly feels lazy and cheapens his death just as much as brainwashing and faking it would. I know that as comic fans, we're all numb to heroes retraining from the grave, but that's still a really big detail to just gloss over. Some of you guys probably know that I'm a Lobdell-hater; while I don't despise his skipping over Jason's means for resurrecting, I still see it as a missed opportunity that disappoints.

One of the reasons why UTRH works as a movie is because they gave Ra's a good reason to resurrect Jason, and embraced the ambiguity of whether or not Jason was already headed down a dark path or if the Pit did something to him. Personally, I like the idea of Talia, as a largely autonomous third party with amoral but not necessarily malevolent intentions, resurrecting Jason for some purpose. To me, the most immediately obvious reason you could apply in a movie would be to have a resurrected Jason help train Damian apart from Ra's's disciples; go ahead and show that Talia is starting to diverge from her father's goals a little bit and that she suspects that her father may try to control her son more than she'd like.

And that's part of the reason why I like the idea of Jason, as he lays dying, accepting an offer for resurrection and further training from Talia. Give him some level of action in his resurrection, maybe embrace some of the desperation such an event would entail, and strengthen his ties to Talia and draw a comparison between the he way both have a complicated bond with Bruce to make a formidable team.

Oh, and incidently, as someone who loves all the Robins, if I were in charge of a live-action Batman show, Jason would ultimately be the earliest lynch-pin between all four boys; he would be the only Robin who started training while Dick still used the identity, he would have Tim Drake as one of his online resources and possible beneficiary of a Jasona nod Bruce rescue missions (think a combination of the Obeah Man's attack on Tim's family with the Penguin's connection to Tim's New 52 origin) and Jason would be a direct inspiration to Tim to become a crime fighter, and then he would be the guy who tutored Damian in some of the more Gotham-vigilante type skills that the LoA's training may not cover.

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## JasonTodd428

> And I'd rather they have some kind of explanation; leaving it so oblique honestly feels lazy and cheapens his death just as much as brainwashing and faking it would. I know that as comic fans, we're all numb to heroes retraining from the grave, but that's still a really big detail to just gloss over. Some of you guys probably know that I'm a Lobdell-hater; while I don't despise his skipping over Jason's means for resurrecting, I still see it as a missed opportunity that disappoints.


I see it a different way then you mostly because the best reasons they've come up with so far for his being alive have been a lazy bit of writing in the first case and a totally out of character moment in the second.  We have Superboy Prime punches reality and bam Jason simply wakes up in his coffin still having the wounds he suffered that caused his death or we have the UTRH movie version which has Ra's attempting to usage his own guilt at causing the events that lead to Jason's death by attempting to give back to Bruce what had been taken from him via stealing Jason's body and then throwing it into the Pit. I like the UTRH scenario better because the SBP punch was utterly lame but frankly I had a hard time believing that Ra's would even feel any kind of guilt over Jason's death. I like having a bit of mystery to it myself. I think it just make more sense to leave it a mystery because it is a total mystery to the characters themselves. Talia was never able to figure out the cause for his resurrection neither before nor after the reboot and Jason also doesn't know the why or how of it. I think it creates a bond between the reader and these characters and also creates an opportunity for a writer to potentially explore how this came to be a little more in depth then just saying outright, "oh, and by the way I was resurrected because of a flux in space time caused by event z".

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## darkseidpwns

I think Arkham Knight version of these events was the best.

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## kaimaciel

> I think Arkham Knight version of these events was the best.


I thought "there's no way they can make _Death in the Family_ worse", then I saw what Joker and the other inmates did to Jason... I was wrong.

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## Aioros22

I`ll go into a detailed answer later on but for now a couple points:

1) If they go with the UTRH movie extrapolation, you don`t have to write guilt over Ras ambitions. Or then again, maybe you can. The general audience doesn`t have the decades of publication in their heads over Ras to get what can be considered out of character or not. Liam made him a sympathetic character despite his ruthleness and the same can be said for Nable in Arrow. You can just write Ras looking at a breach in Bruce`s armor. His character would always have an interest in exploiting that to his own means if necessary like a Chess play.

2) Joker being "dead". We don`t know. We don`t even know if he shows up present time in Suicide Squad. Could be flashbacks. I just point it out at the possibility of it since Bruce is older and the affair with Jason seems to have happened "ago". How long? Anyone`s guess. 

3) No point wasting time even considering the "Superboy punch" plot point for all the obvious reasons.

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## Aioros22

> I thought "there's no way they can make _Death in the Family_ worse", then I saw what Joker and the other inmates did to Jason... I was wrong.


Worse as in more cruel or badly written? To me is more cruel but it worked better for the purpose.

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## kaimaciel

> Worse as in more cruel or badly written? To me is more cruel but it worked better for the purpose.


As in more cruel and twisted. Being tortured by Joker and the rest of Batman's rogues for two years, being brainwashed and shown how Bruce had "simply" replaced him with Tim (I still want to know why the hell Bruce gave up his search with only Joker's word, a video that could and was faked and no body).

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## godisawesome

The reason is probably because the script was built by a much less careful and skilled team than they used on previous Arkham games; I'm mostly convinced a lot of the issues with the Robins in Knight are the result of not taking the time to properly research which Robin is which. That would explain why Tim is both apparently somewhat a rookie in Arkahm City who acts mostly like a recognizable adaptation of the character and yet dressed as Robin in A Family Affair, the Knight DLC where he's inexplicably Babs's peer, as well as his sudden romance with her and Knight's accusation that Bats was deploying him basically a month after Jason's disappearance. And why Dick is barely utilized, and why every single plot point in the game is effectively personified as "and then a bad guy took someone hostage whom should have been _really_ hard to take hostage."

Seriously, the script in Arkham Knight is basically the reverse of Arkham Origins's script; in the latter, it was generally the one part of the game that everyone agreed actually was an improvement over Arkham City, while the former is generally admitted as being the weakest element of an otherwise great game.

Can you imagine an Arkham Knight game written with the finesse of the Origins script? Like actually developing the relationship between Jason and Scarecrow, using the fear gas for more than Joker hallucinations, skipping the stupidity of the Joker blood segment while embracing the elements that actually worked, and utilizing the Batfamily in a way that actually showed respect and care were taken for them? I mean, just imagine if we'd actually gotten a dual play fight with Nightwing against Arkahm Knight after he's beaten down Tim, or had Babs hack Jason's communications to try and turn him against Scarecrow, or seeing the badguy's do more than run sidequests!

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## darkseidpwns

> The reason is probably because the script was built by a much less careful and skilled team than they used on previous Arkham games; I'm mostly convinced a lot of the issues with the Robins in Knight are the result of not taking the time to properly research which Robin is which. That would explain why Tim is both apparently somewhat a rookie in Arkahm City who acts mostly like a recognizable adaptation of the character and yet dressed as Robin in A Family Affair, the Knight DLC where he's inexplicably Babs's peer, as well as his sudden romance with her and Knight's accusation that Bats was deploying him basically a month after Jason's disappearance. And why Dick is barely utilized, and why every single plot point in the game is effectively personified as "and then a bad guy took someone hostage whom should have been _really_ hard to take hostage."
> 
> Seriously, the script in Arkham Knight is basically the reverse of Arkham Origins's script; in the latter, it was generally the one part of the game that everyone agreed actually was an improvement over Arkham City, while the former is generally admitted as being the weakest element of an otherwise great game.
> 
> Can you imagine an Arkham Knight game written with the finesse of the Origins script? Like actually developing the relationship between Jason and Scarecrow, using the fear gas for more than Joker hallucinations, skipping the stupidity of the Joker blood segment while embracing the elements that actually worked, and utilizing the Batfamily in a way that actually showed respect and care were taken for them? I mean, just imagine if we'd actually gotten a dual play fight with Nightwing against Arkahm Knight after he's beaten down Tim, or had Babs hack Jason's communications to try and turn him against Scarecrow, or seeing the badguy's do more than run sidequests!


Rocksteady was more interested in Batman and Joker above everything else. Their understanding of Batman's world was quite poor,we wouldn't have gotten their versions of Two-Face,Bane and Hugo Strange if they had truly bothered to do some research beyond wikipedia. I dont care about the game version of what happened to Jason,I was referring to the Genesis mini series.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Rocksteady was more interested in Batman and Joker above everything else. Their understanding of Batman's world was quite poor,we wouldn't have gotten their versions of Two-Face,Bane and Hugo Strange if they had truly bothered to do some research beyond wikipedia. I dont care about the game version of what happened to Jason,I was referring to the Genesis mini series.


Nah, the Genesis mini series is just an example of everything wrong with Jason's character pre N52: They dropped any kind of nuance on his character just to prop him as "a badass", he didn't care for anyone but himself, he was constantly propped up in detriment of other characters (Deathstroke), everything he did lack any kind of internal logical when you take into account what we know about the setting from the games, most characters suddenly became idiots so the plot would work and the worst thing, it make Jason a puppet of the Joker. I honestly can't wrap my head on how the same people that can't stop complaining about the supposed Joker involvement on Jason's N52 origin can sing prases of Arkham Knight Genesis when it take the basic idea and cranks it to eleven.

As for his resurrection, the why and how of Jason's resurrection has never been a relevant part of his character. What is important is his actions after coming back, the emotional conflict that comes by the clash between his moral code and the lessons learned from Bruce. Lobdell addition of the All-Caste helps enormously to that, since Ducra didn't forced anything on Jason (unlike Talia on Lost Days), she simply presented Jason with the knowledge but ultimately, it was HIS choice what he did with that knowledge.

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## REAL

> Nah, the Genesis mini series is just an example of everything wrong with Jason's character pre N52: They dropped any kind of nuance on his character just to prop him as "a badass", *he didn't care for anyone but himself*, he was constantly propped up in detriment of other characters (Deathstroke), everything he did lack any kind of internal logical when you take into account what we know about the setting from the games, most characters suddenly became idiots so the plot would work and the worst thing, it make Jason a puppet of the Joker. I honestly can't wrap my head on how the same people that can't stop complaining about the supposed Joker involvement on Jason's N52 origin can sing prases of Arkham Knight Genesis when it take the basic idea and cranks it to eleven.


Who do you want him to care for? The guy was tortured for two years without anyone finding him. That will messed up anyone and make them apathetic and illogical. 

And if anyone was dumbed down, it was batman. The fact that Jason was right there under his nose without him realizing it was quite embarrassing. 

Overall, I actually liked AK because it gives us a new take on Jason's history and interesting take of the twisted relationship between Jason and the joker.  

To *@godisawesome*
I think that Jason's resurrection will depend on what WB want the sequel to be about to set up the second batman solo movie. So, they either gonna use LOA and the pit or they might mix Jason with court of Owls and makes them the ones who brought him back, or it might be something completely new and different. So who knows.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Who do you want him to care for? The guy was tortured for two years without anyone finding him. That will messed up anyone and make them apathetic and illogical.


That is the thing with Jason, his characterization hinges on his empathy for everyone else. So taking that away from him is missng the whole damn point of his character. BEsides, Tomasi didn't even bothered to actually make sure his story fit with the canon of the game, where that was a plot point. Jason went after the Joker in the game precisely because he was sick of the guy getitng away with hurting innocent people and he decided to put an end to it since Batman wouldn't do.

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## Aahz

> Nah, the Genesis mini series is just an example of everything wrong with Jason's character pre N52: They dropped any kind of nuance on his character just to prop him as "a badass",


To be honest, in the new 52, they should really should write more often as a "a badass".

I'm also not really happy with Jason characterisation and the plot (I still don't really get why he teamed up with Scare Crow), but at least this series shows that Jason wasn't just just a random street kid, and didn't constantly screw up as Robin. And his fight against Bane (ok that was in the regular Arkham Knight Comics and not in Genesis) was also much more satisfying than what happened in the Eternal series.



What I really would like to see some point would be a good executed version of how Jason as Robin went slowly over to the "dark side" and abandoned Batmans methods, based on the events in the original comics (Two Face, 10 Nights of the Beast, Dumpster Killer, Diplomats Son, Killing Joke, Cult). But thats probaly to long for a movie, and I doubt anyway that many fans will be pleased with a series were Batman is constantly failing.
But if they do it right you could probaly even turn Jason into leaving Bruce and joining the League without killing or brain washing him.

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## Aioros22

> As in more cruel and twisted. Being tortured by Joker and the rest of Batman's rogues for two years, being brainwashed and shown how Bruce had "simply" replaced him with Tim (I still want to know why the hell Bruce gave up his search with only Joker's word, a video that could and was faked and no body).


Yeah I liked the more emotional charged aspect of it. 

The no body evidence bothered me but that`s clearly a plot hole the size of a giant cheese. That scene for the movie with the burnt uniform would work as the missing piece of the puzzle.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL #12
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> On sale MAY 11 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> Arsenal confronts his greatest mistake: the mercenaries known as the Iron Rule! Good thing Red Hood is there to help him *but will Jason’s methods tear down the partnership they’ve been trying so hard to build?* Plus, Joker’s Daughter faces her greatest challenge yet: high school!


I don't like the sound of that

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## JasonTodd428

> I don't like the sound of that


Well someone in the main May Solicits post has suggested that they are stealth cancelling all the titles because of Rebirth in June and the main reason for the suggestion was the fact that books that are already known to be ending don't have FINAL ISSUE on them. I guess we'll  find out what's going on once they start bringing out information on Rebirth sometime this week.

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## Starchild

I'm curious to see what happens to Red Hood/Arsenal when Rebirth rolls around. My guess is that Red Hood will have a book to himself, while Roy will go back to being GA's supporting cast. Whatever happens, I hope they don't ignore the friendship. At this point, it has been solidified.

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## Rac7d*

> I'm curious to see what happens to Red Hood/Arsenal when Rebirth rolls around. My guess is that Red Hood will have a book to himself, while Roy will go back to being GA's supporting cast. Whatever happens, I hope they don't ignore the friendship. At this point, it has been solidified.


I guess we will see, Roy is a friends of him and Dick so he probably wil swing by Gotham every now and then

Joker daughter, is she renting a room in this book, why is her going to high school important how old is she ?

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## JasonTodd428

> I'm curious to see what happens to Red Hood/Arsenal when Rebirth rolls around. My guess is that Red Hood will have a book to himself, while Roy will go back to being GA's supporting cast. Whatever happens, I hope they don't ignore the friendship. At this point, it has been solidified.


Yeah, I'm curious to see what will happen to Red Hood/Arsenal the title, as well as to Jason, Roy and Duella. Hopefully everything that was built here and all the character development that happened doesn't just get thrown out the window in the name of synergy.

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## RoyImpulse

> I don't like the sound of that


Sounds to me like a storyline tease that brings them closer.

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## RoyImpulse

> Yeah, I'm curious to see what will happen to Red Hood/Arsenal the title, as well as to Jason, Roy and Duella. Hopefully everything that was built here and all the character development that happened doesn't just get thrown out the window in the name of synergy.


I definitely want Red Hood/Arsenal to continue through Rebirth.

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## AJpyro

> Well someone in the main May Solicits post has suggested that they are stealth cancelling all the titles because of Rebirth in June and the main reason for the suggestion was the fact that books that are already known to be ending don't have FINAL ISSUE on them. I guess we'll  find out what's going on once they start bringing out information on Rebirth sometime this week.





> I'm curious to see what happens to Red Hood/Arsenal when Rebirth rolls around. My guess is that Red Hood will have a book to himself, while Roy will go back to being GA's supporting cast. Whatever happens, I hope they don't ignore the friendship. At this point, it has been solidified.


Excuse me. I need this gif:

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## REAL

Since when Roy has problems with Jason's methods? 

I want Red Hood solo, but not at the expense of Jason and Roy friendship.

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## Aioros22

> Since when Roy has problems with Jason's methods? 
> 
> I want Red Hood solo, but not at the expense of Jason and Roy friendship.


That`s what I think as well. And I still think you could have solo stories of either in form of a self contained Back Up. I love that vintage Comics format.

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## TooFlyToFail

> I don't like the sound of that


I do. I long for solo Jason stories, or Jason's equivalent to Batman's stories.

Besides, if JoBlo is right, and they've been on the money lately, UtRH is going to be adapted within the next 5 years. What does that mean? What it usually means: the character will be reverted to a state similar to the version of the character in the movie. 

This Rebirth is an easy way to do this to the DC characters, with the DCEU on the way.

They need to keep his friendships, tho. I wouldn't be surprised if his solo focused on his relationship with Talia.

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## JasonTodd428

> I do. I long for solo Jason stories, or Jason's equivalent to Batman's stories.
> 
> Besides, if JoBlo is right, and they've been on the money lately, UtRH is going to be adapted within the next 5 years. What does that mean? What it usually means: the character will be reverted to a state similar to the version of the character in the movie. 
> 
> This Rebirth is an easy way to do this to the DC characters, with the DCEU on the way.


Except that UTRH already happened and the aftermath of that story lead to the stagnation of Jason's character. He basically became a one note Bat villain who was hung up on his death and the fact that Bruce never avenged him by killing Joker. Nobody had a plan for him going forward, unless you want to count that nonsense about making him an evil, killer version of Nightwing, and so that lead to a succession of mediocre directions and stories that basically went nowhere. Frankly I have no desire to see that version of the character again or to repeat those types of stories either. I'd much rather they try to find a balance between who he was then and who he is now and that they have some kind of definitive direction they want to take him in. At least Lobdell went into this with a plan in mind and a clear idea of how to bet there, which is more then a lot of writers before him had.

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## TooFlyToFail

> I don't like the sound of that





> Except that UTRH already happened and the aftermath of that story lead to the stagnation of Jason's character. He basically became a one note Bat villain who was hung up on his death and the fact that Bruce never avenged him by killing Joker. Nobody had a plan for him going forward, unless you want to count that nonsense about making him an evil, killer version of Nightwing, and so that lead to a succession of mediocre directions and stories that basically went nowhere. Frankly I have no desire to see that version of the character again or to repeat those types of stories either. I'd much rather they try to find a balance between who he was then and who he is now and that they have some kind of definitive direction they want to take him in. At least Lobdell went into this with a plan in mind and a clear idea of how to bet there, which is more then a lot of writers before him had.


I'm not necessarily talking about that version coming back. I'm merely talking about going back to a one man act, or just having a solo, with a more serious tone to it.

Like his first arc could be him taking a contract on Professor Pyg, or something. The second arc could see him go mystical with Talia, and a third arc with him teaming up with Roy, or Dick. 

While Lobdell did some interesting things, I don't feel his storytelling is all that strong. Same goes for his dialogue. I'd like to see a new writer take the helm. If I could have my way, it'd be Warren Ellis, or Brian Wood; their Moon Knight runs were heavily grounded, sure, but the storytelling, and dialogue, were leagues beyond what Lobdell does in his books.

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## Aioros22

Yeah I get what you`re saying. They won`t erase what Loedebll did since he expanded so much on the backstory but with UTRH being possibly adapted to the big screen, they may shift the tone of the storylines from action movie hero to a more serious direction. 

Some of the themes handled by Loedbell were serious to me and I think he tried to inject some of his own (did the Joker chose Jason or not?) but there`s no doubt there are writers out there more fit to that type of storytelling. Loedbell´s fortè is about having fun with the themes, not so much the descontruction of them.

As long they don`t make the same mistakes that they did before with the post UTRH stories and maintain the healthy balance they seem to have going for the reboot, the tone shifting will seem natural as it is. Jason as a character is as fit with a small cast of teammates as he can be solo.

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## JAG2045

> Except that UTRH already happened and the aftermath of that story lead to the stagnation of Jason's character. He basically became a one note Bat villain who was hung up on his death and the fact that Bruce never avenged him by killing Joker. Nobody had a plan for him going forward, unless you want to count that nonsense about making him an evil, killer version of Nightwing, and so that lead to a succession of mediocre directions and stories that basically went nowhere. Frankly I have no desire to see that version of the character again or to repeat those types of stories either. I'd much rather they try to find a balance between who he was then and who he is now and that they have some kind of definitive direction they want to take him in. At least Lobdell went into this with a plan in mind and a clear idea of how to bet there, which is more then a lot of writers before him had.


Agreed, I want Jason back in the bat-comics but I think a series of him learning to accept what happened and mending his relationships with Dick/Tim/Damien/Barbara would be interesting - I liked in Death of the Family how Tim & Jason stayed friends as "outsiders" (cant remember exact wording) within the Bat-Family and I hope we get more integration, not this "I am the dark one of the family, all I ever do is argue with Nightwing and when I join the group for any reason I leave the team straight away after!"

I really thought after DOTF that DC were going in this direction this they screwed up by having Bruce only want Jason there to help him figure out how he came back to try and do the same to Damien

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## JasonTodd428

> I'm not necessarily talking about that version coming back. I'm merely talking about going back to a one man act, or just having a solo, with a more serious tone to it.


Solo stories would be nice but I don't want to see them all have a serious tone either. I like a bit of variety myself so I'd like the writer to mix up both the tone and the scope of the stories told. I'd also like to see a story once in a while that is basically Jason having a bit of downtime with other characters, like Roy or his brothers. There's not enough of that in my opinion. 




> As long they don`t make the same mistakes that they did before with the post UTRH stories and maintain the healthy balance they seem to have going for the reboot, the tone shifting will seem natural as it is. Jason as a character is as fit with a small cast of teammates as he can be solo.


Exactly. It's fine so long as they have some kind of plan for him and so long as it seems to be a natural direction for him to go in these days. Otherwise all they are doing is regressing the character and I don't think any fan of Jason Todd would want that. 




> Agreed, I want Jason back in the bat-comics but I think a series of him learning to accept what happened and mending his relationships with Dick/Tim/Damien/Barbara would be interesting.


I think that could be a very interesting story for a few issues anyway.

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## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah I get what you`re saying. They won`t erase what Loedebll did since he expanded so much on the backstory but with UTRH being possibly adapted to the big screen, they may shift the tone of the storylines from action movie hero to a more serious direction. 
> 
> Some of the themes handled by Loedbell were serious to me and I think he tried to inject some of his own (did the Joker chose Jason or not?) but there`s no doubt there are writers out there more fit to that type of storytelling. Loedbell´s fortè is about having fun with the themes, not so much the descontruction of them.
> 
> As long they don`t make the same mistakes that they did before with the post UTRH stories and maintain the healthy balance they seem to have going for the reboot, the tone shifting will seem natural as it is. Jason as a character is as fit with a small cast of teammates as he can be solo.


Exactly. Keep all the development, but depict Jason's stories as more serious in tone, as well as more deconstructions of what a Batman, or Dick Grayson,  story would be. To me, that's what Jason is supposed to represent; an argument to Batman's philosophy. In the Arkham Knight annual issue, Jason describes the world as not black and white, but full of different POVs. Jason's wasn't raised the way any of the other members of the Bat Family was; he wasn't raised with a set moral foundation, and has had to adjust it constantly. It allows him to poke holes into Bruce's philosophy. I'd like to see that explored more, without making him a villain.

Also. I've always had the impression that Jason is quite cerebral, under all the cynicism, and sarcasm. More thinking, planning, and manipulating (good, and bad, guys) Jason, rather than action Jason sometimes. 

Maybe show that Jason being able to read people goes beyond just combat.

This can be done without making him a villain.

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## TooFlyToFail

> Solo stories would be nice but I don't want to see them all have a serious tone either. I like a bit of variety myself so I'd like the writer to mix up both the tone and the scope of the stories told. I'd also like to see a story once in a while that is basically Jason having a bit of downtime with other characters, like Roy or his brothers. There's not enough of that in my opinion.


Sure, he can still team up with others. I wouldn't be opposed to him, and Damian, just hanging out for a day in their civilian personas.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Exactly. Keep all the development, but depict Jason's stories as more serious in tone, as well as more deconstructions of what a Batman, or Dick Grayson,  story would be. To me, that's what Jason is supposed to represent; an argument to Batman's philosophy. In the Arkham Knight annual issue, Jason describes the world as not black and white, but full of different POVs. Jason's wasn't raised the way any of the other members of the Bat Family was; he wasn't raised with a set moral foundation, and has had to adjust it constantly. It allows him to poke holes into Bruce's philosophy. I'd like to see that explored more, without making him a villain.
> 
> Also. I've always had the impression that Jason is quite cerebral, under all the cynicism, and sarcasm. More thinking, planning, and manipulating (good, and bad, guys) Jason, rather than action Jason sometimes. 
> 
> Maybe show that Jason being able to read people goes beyond just combat.
> 
> This can be done without making him a villain.


That sounds pretty good to me as well and seeing him and Damian having a day together as civilians could be fun.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Exactly. Keep all the development, but depict Jason's stories as more serious in tone, as well as more deconstructions of what a Batman, or Dick Grayson,  story would be. To me, that's what Jason is supposed to represent; an argument to Batman's philosophy. In the Arkham Knight annual issue, *Jason describes the world as not black and white, but full of different POVs. Jason's wasn't raised the way any of the other members of the Bat Family was; he wasn't raised with a set moral foundation, and has had to adjust it constantly.* It allows him to poke holes into Bruce's philosophy. I'd like to see that explored more, without making him a villain.
> 
> Also. I've always had the impression that Jason is quite cerebral, under all the cynicism, and sarcasm. More thinking, planning, and manipulating (good, and bad, guys) Jason, rather than action Jason sometimes. 
> 
> Maybe show that Jason being able to read people goes beyond just combat.
> 
> This can be done without making him a villain.


Esxcept that Tomasi botched the execution something fierce. All of Jason's talk rings hoolow when his only actions are focused in further his veendetta against Bruce, with little to what happens to everyone else. And no, Jason didn't had to modify his moral code. something consistent with him is that he always had clear what was wrong and what was good, the differecne with Bruce is that he's willing to compromise anything to ensure innocent people is safe.

----------


## Aahz

> Agreed, I want Jason back in the bat-comics but I think a series of him learning to accept what happened and mending his relationships with Dick/Tim/Damien/Barbara would be interesting - I liked in Death of the Family how Tim & Jason stayed friends as "outsiders" (cant remember exact wording) within the Bat-Family and I hope we get more integration, not this "I am the dark one of the family, all I ever do is argue with Nightwing and when I join the group for any reason I leave the team straight away after!"


Jason should stay kind of an outsider imo. In most of the Batfamily cross overs he is to much in line with the rest of the family.
He is the guy who should sometimes question Bruce methods, and from time to use or at least suggest stuff the others wouldn't, but at the moment Damian is the only one who does something like that.

I have in general the not the feeling that any of the writers in the last Batfamily events really made good use of Jason, or that they really have a concept what his place/niche/role in the Batfamily is (apart from beeing the one who drinks beer).

Cass did this head/hand/heart-thing with Tim, Jason and Dick I thought, had finally some kind of concept, but after this he was mostly used as comic relief/side kick for Tim and apart from being the guinea pig for this brain washing methods didn't provided anything to the plot.


@pre rebirth Jason
I would actually like to see something like Red Hood: the lost Days or RHatO: Futures End. That doesn't mean I want him running around a kill criminals. But some more serious, were Jason really has to come up with some good strategy to take down the Bad Guys, and with better and more Bad Ass fight and action scenes (which were quite rare in RHatO and RH/A ).

Apart from this I would like to see his relation with Dick better defined (Grayson #12 for example felt extreme ooc for me) and would like to see him hang out with Damian (and Maps).

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## Godlike13

Lobdell's run probably should have ended with RHatO. RH/A doesn't sell particularly well, it isn't reviewed particularly well (if its reviewed at all), and more times not when it is talked about its talked about to mock DC with. Theres nothing there that says its something they should maybe keep going. There are plenty of books that i don't munch enjoy, but still understand that other people do and that overall their general reception is positive despite it not being for me. Thats not really the case here though. I think its safe to say its general reception has been rather poor. So i think to say that Jason needs a new direction and a new voice is an understatement. And frankly if they wanted to give Jason and Roy the Starfire treatment and ignore pretty much everything Lobdell did, u wouldn't hear any complaining from me.

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## Aahz

> Lobdell's run probably should have ended with RHatO. RH/A doesn't sell particularly well, it isn't reviewed particularly well (if its reviewed at all), and more times not when it is talked about its talked about to mock DC with.


Even if the series is not that great, it is not nearly as bad as some reviewer make it.

But may be it's really time for a new team (as long as it is non of the guys from B&RE).

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## Godlike13

> But may be it's really time for a new team (as long as it is non of the guys from B&RE).


What about Genevieve Valentine though?

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## JasonTodd428

> . And frankly if they wanted to give Jason and Roy the Starfire treatment and ignore pretty much everything Lobdell did, u wouldn't hear any complaining from me.


If by that you mean a complete 180 so far as characterization goes then no thank you. I can't stand Roy in _Titan's Hunt_, Barbara in _Batgirl_ or Starfire in her own solo and it's not because I don't like light, upbeat books or because I hate change. It's because they went to the extreme opposite end of the pole to me. If they took Jason the same direction then chances are very high, based on the aformentioned characters, that I wouldn't like the direction. It would likely just be a return of villain Jason which is a toxic direction to me these days because of how mishandled it was in the pre-flashpoint days.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Lobdell's run probably should have ended with RHatO. RH/A doesn't sell particularly well, it isn't reviewed particularly well (if its reviewed at all), and more times not when it is talked about its talked about to mock DC with. Theres nothing there that says its something they should maybe keep going. There are plenty of books that i don't munch enjoy, but still understand that other people do and that overall their general reception is positive despite it not being for me. Thats not really the case here though. I think its safe to say its general reception has been rather poor. So i think to say that Jason needs a new direction and a new voice is an understatement. And frankly if they wanted to give Jason and Roy the Starfire treatment and ignore pretty much everything Lobdell did, u wouldn't hear any complaining from me.


The book doesn't recieve a lot of reviews simply because DC has never bothered to give it proper promotion.  The only site that continues "reviewing" it is Batman News and they have a marked bias against Lobdell making their reviews useless. During Robin War the book got mostly positive reviews http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...ood--arsenal/7

The book itself is pretty well received both here and Reddit with the most harshest critcism being found on 4chan and ComicVine and those criticism are usually by the same persons so yeah.

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## Badou

I wasn't a fan of what Lobdell did with Starfire, but pairing up Jason and Roy was brilliant in my book. They actually feel like good friends and make sense together. Far more than Roy did with characters like Dick. So I do think that is a relationship that should continue through whatever Rebirth is going to be because both characters are better with it.

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## Tony Stark

> Exactly. Keep all the development, but depict Jason's stories as more serious in tone, as well as more deconstructions of what a Batman, or Dick Grayson,  story would be. To me, that's what Jason is supposed to represent; an argument to Batman's philosophy. In the Arkham Knight annual issue, Jason describes the world as not black and white, but full of different POVs. Jason's wasn't raised the way any of the other members of the Bat Family was; he wasn't raised with a set moral foundation, and has had to adjust it constantly. It allows him to poke holes into Bruce's philosophy. I'd like to see that explored more, without making him a villain.
> 
> Also. I've always had the impression that Jason is quite cerebral, under all the cynicism, and sarcasm. More thinking, planning, and manipulating (good, and bad, guys) Jason, rather than action Jason sometimes. 
> 
> Maybe show that Jason being able to read people goes beyond just combat.
> 
> This can be done without making him a villain.


I agree with you on just about all your points. I hate when they show Jason as as the Robin that just punches hard. Winnick wrote him perfectly imo. Under the Red Hood had him 10 steps ahead of everyone and they should use that more. Also he is a great detective. He learned from the best. Show that more.

----------


## Aahz

> What about Genevieve Valentine though?


I'm not a big fan of her Catwoman run. it was well written but it didn't felt like Catwoman. And I don't recall that the series had great action scenes or good villains.

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## Godlike13

LoL, well RHatO is continuing though Rebirth. I really don't get it, and i think its unfortunate for Jason who IMO needs something new exciting, but good for u guys that like it i guess.

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## JasonTodd428

> LoL, well RHatO is continuing though Rebirth. I really don't get it, and i think its unfortunate for Jason who IMO needs something new exciting, but good for u guys that like it i guess.


I imagine it's with a new writer, a new direction and that Jason will have a new team as well.

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## Godlike13

> I imagine it's with a new writer, a new direction and that Jason will have a new team as well.


I wouldn't be surprised if Tim is on it. I guessing Arsenal is moving to Titans, and rumor is Damian is taking over TT, so im not seeing a book where Tim could be.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

So I guess this is it for Roy and Jason's friendship  :Frown:

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## JasonTodd428

> So I guess this is it for Roy and Jason's friendship


Nothing's been made clear yet beyond the fact that there will be a RHatO comic come June and that's at least something, We'll be getting more news later about the finer points like whose in the book beyond Jason. It could be that Roy remains a member of the Outlaws. I'm not as convinced as some people are that he's destined to make regular appearances in the Titans book and even if he is there's no reason he couldn't appear in both.

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## Kalethas31

I love RHATO  :Big Grin: 

RHO2.jpg

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## RoyImpulse

> Nothing's been made clear yet beyond the fact that there will be a RHatO comic come June and that's at least something, We'll be getting more news later about the finer points like whose in the book beyond Jason. It could be that Roy remains a member of the Outlaws. I'm not as convinced as some people are that he's destined to make regular appearances in the Titans book and even if he is there's no reason he couldn't appear in both.


I agree. Roy can appear in both. I think the new book will probably go back to Jason, Roy, and Kori. 

As for Tim, its hard to imagine him being an outlaw. It doesnt fit his character.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hope you guys are right. I've LOATHED what Abnett has done to Roy in Titan's Hunt

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## Godlike13

> I agree. Roy can appear in both. I think the new book will probably go back to Jason, Roy, and Kori. 
> 
> As for Tim, it’s hard to imagine him being an “outlaw.” It doesn’t fit his character.


Id be very surprised if they put Starfire back in RHatO after her solo. But at this point, who knows. They might.

And with Tim the Outlaw in RHatO was always more for the sound then the actuality. Tim fits with what Roy and Kory were when they firt threw together RHatO. A character that they didn't really know what to do with but still wanted to keep circulating.

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## AJpyro

> Well someone in the main May Solicits post has suggested that they are stealth cancelling all the titles because of Rebirth in June and the main reason for the suggestion was the fact that books that are already known to be ending don't have FINAL ISSUE on them. I guess we'll  find out what's going on once they start bringing out information on Rebirth sometime this week.


Question, does the rebirth mean the Story>Continuity is over?

Cause if not= Roy can still be an outlaw but doesn't stay with Jay all the time. This could lead to single character stories and more one and dones.

Cause if so=then who gives a care? Have Roy in both and enjoy!

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## JasonTodd428

> Hope you guys are right. I've LOATHED what Abnett has done to Roy in Titan's Hunt


I hope I'm right and I agree with how Roy's been handled in Titan's Hunt.

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## JaggedFel

Yeah no Jason is probably keeping Arsenal but he aint keeping Starfire.

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## Aahz

> Id be very surprised if they put Starfire back in RHatO after her solo. But at this point, who knows. They might.


I hope they don't bring her back, she never really fit in. She doesn't really belong in that kind of stories were Jason and Roy work best and Jason and Roy don't really fit in space adventures. There would be far better choices for new team members.

I'm actually surprised that Kori lost her Solo, I thought it sold quite well (and better than RHatO or RH/A).

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## REAL

Red Hood and the Outlaws rebirth? I can't say that I mind. 

I don't want Roy or Kory in the team tho. And definitely NOT TIM.

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## Badou

Yeah, I hope that Starfire isn't in this new Outlaws book. I would imagine that Lobdell would probably write it and I dread the thought of him writing Starfire again. Roy is a very interesting case. Being in both Titans and Outlaws would seem unlikely as both books would be too similar. I mean the old Outlaws book was basically a Titans book, but I hope that Roy is in Outlaws as I'd rather not see him on a Titans title. He's better with Jason than Dick.

No idea if Tim would be in this book, but maybe he will be in Birds of Prey if not Outlaws or a Titans book.

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## REAL

> Yeah, I hope that Starfire isn't in this new Outlaws book. *I would imagine that Lobdell would probably write it* and I dread the thought of him writing Starfire again. Roy is a very interesting case. Being in both Titans and Outlaws would seem unlikely as both books would be too similar. I mean the old Outlaws book was basically a Titans book, but I hope that Roy is in Outlaws as I'd rather not see him on a Titans title. He's better with Jason than Dick.
> 
> No idea if Tim would be in this book, but maybe he will be in Birds of Prey if not Outlaws or a Titans book.


I hope not. I don't mind him much, but it is time to have someone new to handle Jason. 

I also hope that Jason and Roy part on good terms and stay friends, but I don't want Roy to be part of the Outlaws because I want a new team.

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## DragonPiece

I got a feeling outlaws will look a lot different in this run. Doubt they would do the same thing they have been doing for them.

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## Aioros22

> Id be very surprised if they put Starfire back in RHatO after her solo. But at this point, who knows. They might.
> 
> And with Tim the Outlaw in RHatO was always more for the sound then the actuality. Tim fits with what Roy and Kory were when they firt threw together RHatO. A character that they didn't really know what to do with but still wanted to keep circulating.


I get what you`re trying to say but those three were called "Outlaw" for the factuality that under the law (even in a fictional world dealing with superheroes) that`s exactly what they were in direct comparison. Roy was in jail for being a loose maverick. Jason had/has federal rep sheet across country. Kory was an unregisted alien warhead. I`m just touching the very basic superficial denotion here but the matter is: they were walking around and do their own stuff on their own accord without answering to the accusations they had. They also broke some _more_ laws on their way out of missions. And yes, I accept the notion that they added Starfire mostly to spice it up but that`s irrelevant. Loedbell made it fit in the larger theme at the time. 

The only thing that makes Tim one is being a vigilante..but he`s more a sanctionated vigilante than any of the three ever were in most of their reboot history. Any of this can change depending the creative team and the tone they want to set in for the book, of course.

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## Aioros22

> I got a feeling outlaws will look a lot different in this run. Doubt they would do the same thing they have been doing for them.


I enjoy what Loedebll did but I`d be curious for a new approach myself. Otherwise is not really _Rebirth._

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## Aioros22

> Yeah, I hope that Starfire isn't in this new Outlaws book. I would imagine that Lobdell would probably write it and I dread the thought of him writing Starfire again. Roy is a very interesting case. Being in both Titans and Outlaws would seem unlikely as both books would be too similar. I mean the old Outlaws book was basically a Titans book, but I hope that Roy is in Outlaws as I'd rather not see him on a Titans title. He's better with Jason than Dick.
> 
> No idea if Tim would be in this book, but maybe he will be in Birds of Prey if not Outlaws or a Titans book.


The tone and direction of the book had little to do with Titans. I think you only say that because Kory and Roy were there. Titans was more a junior League where these legacy kids built a family on theyr own just like their mentors had done. Outlaws was popcorn goodcop/bad cop friendship. 

If there`s a connection in the two, more than characters themselves, is the larger theme of all of them being misfits.

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## Badou

> The tone and direction of the book had little to do with Titans. I think you only say that because Kory and Roy were there. Titans was more a junior League where these legacy kids built a family on theyr own just like their mentors had done. Outlaws was popcorn goodcop/bad cop friendship. 
> 
> If there`s a connection in the two, more than characters themselves, is the larger theme of all of them being misfits.


To me it felt like a Titans team. The NTT and old Titans books weren't really like a Jr Justice League. Outlaws felt very much in the style of the NTT/Titans series given the type of stories being told (they basically retold the NTT Starfire story in it) and that the friendship between the characters felt like family, which is a hallmark of the Titans books. The JL books are more professional where the Titans characters lived and did normal things together like what the Outlaws did.

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## REAL

Do you guys think that Jason will be back to the bat office? Or do you think that they will keep him in the superman office? 

And do you want him back or not?

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Do you guys think that Jason will be back to the bat office? Or do you think that they will keep him in the superman office? 
> 
> And do you want him back or not?


As long King and Snyder keep being the driving forces behind the Batman Office I hope Jason stays the hell away of them.

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## JaggedFel

> Do you guys think that Jason will be back to the bat office? Or do you think that they will keep him in the superman office? 
> 
> And do you want him back or not?


I assume back to Bat maybe whatever line Titans is in.

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## Aahz

> As long King and Snyder keep being the driving forces behind the Batman Office I hope Jason stays the hell away of them.


Maybe they would put more effort into writing him when they were responsible for him.

Thomasis version of Jason in B&R was also not great, but how he portrait him in the Arkham Knight Comics was good (OK some things didn't make much sense but that was mostly because of the plot of the game).

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## Kalethas31

Starfire slave and drug addict was interesting

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## TooFlyToFail

Pretty sure Roy isn't coming back.

Who do people want on the new team?

My team: 
- Jason Todd 
- Cassandra Cain/Mia
- Brick

I'd also like to see them affiliated with the League of Assassins, which is led by the recently "rehabilitated" Talia Al Ghul. They, and the rest of the league, take on contracts to stop corruption, and evil, world wide, without the whole take over the world concept, but, as this is still a league of killers, break the law, and they do things the less than honorable way, they're still considered outlaws. 

I think that'd be an interesting direction to take them. I'd have Cassandra be part of the team because her father, David Cain, is Jason's first target.

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## TooFlyToFail

> Do you guys think that Jason will be back to the bat office? Or do you think that they will keep him in the superman office? 
> 
> And do you want him back or not?


Lol, why is he in the Superman office to begin with?

Yeah, bring him back into the Bat-Fold...but with no of those writers (maybe Snyder) writing him. I'll keep saying it! Bring on Warren Ellis DC! You need all the talent you can buy right now!

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## AJpyro

Does Warren have an exclusive contract too? I'd like to see a year of Red Hood by him.

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## Aioros22

> To me it felt like a Titans team. The NTT and old Titans books weren't really like a Jr Justice League. Outlaws felt very much in the style of the NTT/Titans series given the type of stories being told (they basically retold the NTT Starfire story in it) and that the friendship between the characters felt like family, which is a hallmark of the Titans books. The JL books are more professional where the Titans characters lived and did normal things together like what the Outlaws did.


I give the Space opera taste in some stories as a bridge to the TT feel, but the character handling..no, not for me at least. Their voices are different. 

I think I laid out this analogy before but personally, RATHO is Lethal Weapon, where misfits/outcasts (which by the way, on second Reading, is not what the Titans under Wolfman really were in those days despite having mentioned that above) and the classic Teen Titans is Growing Pains. 

The themes aren`t worlds apart but the_ fee_l, the tone, is different. IMO of course.

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## Aioros22

> Lol, why is he in the Superman office to begin with?


Have no idea, but in some ways it was perhaps for the best. The best crossover appearances came from the Super office, to me. In the end is kind of whatvs as long they do a nice job. 




> Yeah, bring him back into the Bat-Fold...but with no of those writers (maybe Snyder) writing him. I'll keep saying it! Bring on Warren Ellis DC! You need all the talent you can buy right now!


Now that would be a great choice to run the ball.

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## AJpyro

> I give the Space opera taste in some stories as a bridge to the TT feel, but the character handling..no, not for me at least. Their voices are different. 
> 
> I think I laid out this analogy before but personally, RATHO is Deadly Weapon, where misfits/outcasts (which by the way, on second Reading, is not what the Titans under Wolfman really were in those days despite having mentioned that above) and the classic Teen Titans is Growing Pains. 
> 
> The themes aren`t worlds apart but the_ fee_l, the tone, is different. IMO of course.


Do you mean deadly class?

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## Aioros22

I meant Lethal Weapon, already edited it  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But you know, yeah lethal weapons but with class. How`s that movie?

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## AJpyro

> I meant Lethal Weapon, already edited it 
> 
> But you know, yeah lethal weapons but with class. How`s that movie?


The Mel Gibson/Danny GLover movies? I've Heard nothing but good things about them.

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## TooFlyToFail

Actually, Remender's Deadly Class is something RHatO should strive to be. At least tone wise, while still having fun.

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## AJpyro

> Actually, Remender's Deadly Class is something RHatO should strive to be. At least tone wise, while still having fun.


Would you rec it as a good team book? I've been looking into more Image comics?

Also= 100 PAGES! WE MADE IT!

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## TooFlyToFail

> Would you rec it as a good team book? I've been looking into more Image comics?
> 
> Also= 100 PAGES! WE MADE IT!


Yes I would. It's great, but full of heartbreak. The main character, Marcus, reminds me of Jason Todd a lot, in his cynical, pragmatic and rebellious, demeanor. You read it and be like "Why isn't this man writing Batman, or Red Hood?"

However, don't let the dower tone fool you. Same with his other stories with Marvel. He can write fun characters, and write believable optimism, and friendships. It's really great.

The art work, and panel design, by Wes Craig, is amazing too. When you read it, you'll want him doing a Jason Todd book immediately....and become as depressed as Marcus when you realize it won't happen, lol.

Still, his style is far more personal. I don't know if that's what people want from RHatO, but I think it would be a great change of pace for the Red Hood comics. We've never REALLY gotten into his head before, and how his mind paints the world around him. I'd really like to see the next writer do that....but I won't hold my breath. He can be more than just a devil may care badass!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> We've never REALLY gotten into his head before, and how his mind paints the world around him. I'd really like to see the next writer do that....but I won't hold my breath. He can be more than just a devil may care badass!


Lobdell has done that since issue 1

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Lobdell has done that since issue 1


Hardly. The writing is not that deep, and the action not that cleverly detailed. His writing doesn't pull any emotions outta me, nor does it really challenge me.

That's why I bring up Remender and Ellis. They do that. I feel that I should care a hell of a lot more about this relationship than I do. Lobdell's writing is shallow. 

Others could do what he is doing MUCH better. It also needs better art. The Bat books get better art than the Superman team does, so him going to the Bat Office, potentially, is a GOOD thing in that aspect at the very least. I, obviously, won't blame Lobdell for that, but better art would help him. For example, as much as I enjoy Warren Ellis, his Supergod comic suffers from merely serviceable art.

So yeah, no Lobdell, or Super Office, this time looks to be a good thing...as long as Tynion, or Tomasi, don't touch it. I hope Snyder does an arc, or two, because he'll no longer feel compelled to do epic stuff, and that's when he's at his best.

----------


## Godlike13

Ooh, Synder would be interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing him go a bit Travis Kidd with Red Hood.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Ooh, Synder would be interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing him go a bit Travis Kidd with Red Hood.


Oh yeah, that'd be a pretty sweet opener, or annual. I like to see how brutal Snyder would depict Jason to be, both in combat, and discussions, seeing as he wouldn't be forced to stick too much to the status quo with a secondary character.

----------


## AJpyro

> Ooh, Synder would be interesting. I wouldn't mind seeing him go a bit *Travis Kidd* with Red Hood.


QUe?

As for Synder...I did enjoy me some American Vampire.

----------


## Godlike13

He's a character from American Vamp.

----------


## Starchild

> So I guess this is it for Roy and Jason's friendship


Just because they won't appear in the same title anymore doesn't mean that the friendship is over. I think Roy should have an antagonistic relationship with Dick though.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Just because they won't appear in the same title anymore doesn't mean that the friendship is over. I think Roy should have an antagonistic relationship with Dick though.


They will still be friends, but it seems that the story setting up to may that they don't see eye to eye anymore, on a morality standpoint. Which will make Roy joining back up with the Titans make sense.

I'm guessing Roy will have his own drama in trying to acclimate back into being a hero, and, very likely, being on the same team with Star fire again (maybe). 

I don't know...I still want the new RHatO book to be Jason affiliated with a Talia led League of Assassins, with Jason being her confidant, and just below her in status/rank. 

I mean that'd be REAL outlaws right there, but they're taking contracts to eliminate the trash/evil of the world as their mission. Have Cassandra be the constant, along with him, and have the third slot be a rotation of a few set assassins (like Bronze Tiger, or Rose, or Deathstroke, or Cheshire, etc) every arc, or so.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They will still be friends, but it seems that the story setting up to may that they don't see eye to eye anymore, on a morality standpoint. Which will make Roy joining back up with the Titans make sense.
> 
> I'm guessing Roy will have his own drama in trying to acclimate back into being a hero, and, very likely, being on the same team with Star fire again (maybe). 
> 
> I don't know...I still want the new RHatO book to be Jason affiliated with a Talia led League of Assassins, with Jason being her confidant, and just below her in status/rank. 
> 
> I mean that'd be REAL outlaws right there, but they're taking contracts to eliminate the trash/evil of the world as their mission. Have Cassandra be the constant, along with him, and have the third slot be a rotation of a few set assassins (like Bronze Tiger, or Rose, or Deathstroke, or Cheshire, etc) every arc, or so.


That doesn't seem to fit organically with where the character is now though. That idea would have worked a lot better with pre-Flashpoint Jason. I do agree though that he needs to move on to something different. I've always had a desire to see what would happen if they gave Jason a bit of a samurai bent. Have him be a guy that wanders the world helping the innocent fight against the injustices of the world using whatever means necessary. That's been on my mind since the introduction of the All Caste into his back story. I think that sort of direction could lead to some interesting stories with a lot of depth and nuance that would showcase his various skills if the right writer was on it. It would also provide a place for a rotating cast of support characters and allow for his involvement in Family matters as well.

----------


## REAL

I honestly would have preferred  Jason working on his own, but if they manged to go give us something new and interesting with RHATO REBIRTH, then I'm all for it. 

I just hope that they don't give us more than two or three characters in the team.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That doesn't seem to fit organically with where the character is now though. That idea would have worked a lot better with pre-Flashpoint Jason. I do agree though that he needs to move on to something different. I've always had a desire to see what would happen if they gave Jason a bit of a samurai bent. Have him be a guy that wanders the world helping the innocent fight against the injustices of the world using whatever means necessary. That's been on my mind since the introduction of the All Caste into his back story. I think that sort of direction could lead to some interesting stories with a lot of depth and nuance that would showcase his various skills if the right writer was on it. It would also provide a place for a rotating cast of support characters and allow for his involvement in Family matters as well.


I don't know, I think that he could be part of this new League, if it was a tentative partnership. It can be explained depending how much time has passed before the Rebirth launched.

However, I do like the sound of your premise as well. A travelling repenting gunslinger. Sounds badass. Just make sure there's a lot of introspection of Jason's view of the world, and himself, then I'm 100% in.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't know, I think that he could be part of this new League, if it was a tentative partnership. It can be explained depending how much time has passed before the Rebirth launched.
> 
> However, I do like the sound of your premise as well. A travelling repenting gunslinger. Sounds badass. Just make sure there's a lot of introspection of Jason's view of the world, and himself, then I'm 100% in.


It could be very badass if handled well. I think it would give a lot of people what they want from the character without resorting to making him the villain to do so.

As for your idea if it was a tentative partnership it might work. My concern would be his treading the line toward villainy again by being associated to closely with the League although if it was a new League maybe that wouldn't be a problem.

----------


## AJpyro

So yay or nay on Rose Wilson joining the new Outlaws? Cause i vote yay.

----------


## Aahz

> So yay or nay on Rose Wilson joining the new Outlaws? Cause i vote yay.


I don't know much about the new 52 Rose, but the old one would fit better in the team than Starfire.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So yay or nay on Rose Wilson joining the new Outlaws? Cause i vote yay.


Depends on how she's written. Her pre-Nu52 persona would be great, along side Jason. Her Nu52 persona is like step back from that; she's lost her edge.

I'd rather have a Nu52/Rebirth version of Mia, or Cassandra Cain be his partner. Tho, depending on the writer, I wouldn't oppose Rose.

----------


## The Conductor

I'd like to see Rose, Crux and maybe a New52 version of Obsidian appear in the team. I always found it bemusing that Red Hood and the Outlaws ran for like, 4 years and the team actually got _smaller_ in the end (with Roy and Jason going one way, and Kori going another) rather than expanding at all.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'd like to see Rose, Crux and maybe a New52 version of Obsidian appear in the team. I always found it bemusing that Red Hood and the Outlaws ran for like, 4 years and the team actually got _smaller_ in the end (with Roy and Jason going one way, and Kori going another) rather than expanding at all.


That's because too many members takes too much shine away from Jason.

It's RED HOOD and the Outlaws. Not,The Outlaws. It's his team, and thus a small team is more appropriate. They get their stories, but, in the end, all comes back to Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Pre reboot Mia was a compelling character with a similar background to Jason. I wish they had saved her along the ride but alas. I like Rose enough for a good writer to handle her but not as Deadstroke 2.0. I can hardly care for the 1.0 take.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Could you all see Elyes Gabel being Jason Todd. His performance in A Most Violent Year was pretty good.

I don't know, I've just been thinking that I wouldn't be opposed to a Hispanic, or Latin, depiction of Jason Todd. What about you all? Does Jason need to be Caucasian? I mean Waterman, and WW, aren't.

----------


## DragonPiece

> So yay or nay on Rose Wilson joining the new Outlaws? Cause i vote yay.


depends on writer. if lobdell is writing, it will likely not be good.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> depends on writer. if lobdell is writing, it will likely not be good.


Can say that again, if her last appearance is anything to go by.

----------


## sghood

Red hood, Arsenal, jokers daughter, rose Wilson, blue bird?, plastic man, terra, essence, kaldur 'ahm, Cheshire, onyx, someone magic related maybe klarion, killer croc or crux, Tim Damian and cass would be cool but won't happen, grace, tarantula,

----------


## Aioros22

> Could you all see Elyes Gabel being Jason Todd. His performance in A Most Violent Year was pretty good.
> 
> I don't know, I've just been thinking that I wouldn't be opposed to a Hispanic, or Latin, depiction of Jason Todd. What about you all? Does Jason need to be Caucasian? I mean Waterman, and WW, aren't.


Gotta see it. I think most would automatically mention Ackles out of habit after his great work in the animated. But they`re different things. I`m not against a less known prospect one bit as long the result is instant grab.

----------


## REAL

Hey guys, have you seen the latest issue of deathstroke? Jason appear in it in the last page and the art was seriously awesome.

----------


## Aioros22

Haven`t picked it up yet. Will the fight happen next issue in Deadhstroke or RHAA?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hey guys, have you seen the latest issue of deathstroke? Jason appear in it in the last page and the art was seriously awesome.


I've seen the page you're talking about but generally speaking I don't read Deathstroke. I am getting the next issue though just to see how the fight turns out.

----------


## REAL

> Haven`t picked it up yet. Will the fight happen next issue in Deadhstroke or RHAA?


Deathstroke.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It is a shame Kirkham won't be pencilling next issue.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Haven`t picked it up yet. Will the fight happen next issue in Deadhstroke or RHAA?


Dead heat stroke? lol

I didn't like Jason being a hired mook,is this the R/A status quo guys? that's just dumb imo.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Dead heat stroke? lol
> 
> I didn't like Jason being a hired mook,is this the R/A status quo guys? that's just dumb imo.


Jason and Roy have a Hero-for-Hire business going on

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

By far my favorite design for Jason

----------


## doolittle

> By far my favorite design for Jason


Red Hood with a red hood is a little too on the nose for me.

----------


## sghood

http://www.newsarama.com/28233-red-h...0-preview.html

----------


## sghood

Anyone else think it's weird that at times in b&re jason is drawn smaller than Tim drake

----------


## Pohzee

> Anyone else think it's weird that at times in b&re jason is drawn smaller than Tim drake


Well, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, I believe that it was said that Tim was stronger than Jason in Death of the Family.

Edit:
image.jpg
Red Robin talking.

Edit 2:
Apologies for terrible quality.
Tim says something along the lines of "I hit harder, but he hits more often."

----------


## Jason Todd

Just a question, If they decided to keep the hood on Jason's uniform, could you guys swallow them loosing the helmet and giving him a red domino mask?

----------


## REAL

> Just a question, If they decided to keep the hood on Jason's uniform, could you guys swallow them loosing the helmet and giving him a red domino mask?


Yup. I actually start to really hate the hamlet (thanks Rocafort!! It's all because of you) and wish that they get rid of it completely and give us a red hoodie instead.

----------


## Pohzee

> Just a question, If they decided to keep the hood on Jason's uniform, could you guys swallow them loosing the helmet and giving him a red domino mask?


Don't like the expressive helmet, but every single Robin former and present uses a domino mask except Jason. They need to be visually different and that would be less true with every single one of them black-haired and wearing dominos (assuming the new Nightwing does wear a mask in favor of Hypnos.)

----------


## Aioros22

> Well, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, I believe that it was said that Tim was stronger than Jason in Death of the Family.
> 
> Edit:
> image.jpg
> Red Robin talking.
> 
> Edit 2:
> Apologies for terrible quality.
> Tim says something along the lines of "I hit harder, but he hits more often."


I need to re-read it but that wouldn`t necessary make Tim physically stronger than Jason, only that he was hitting harder than someone who was figthing blind. Across the titles, Jason being physically stronger only makes sense. He`s taller, broader, heavier and older (tho that alone doesn`t mean much, granted). Training wise, the same. Jason`s training had to be more physically daunting than Tim`s, I don`t think anyone can argue it otherwise. 

Tim`s depiction is visually all over the place. Sometimes he looks younger and skinny, sometimes he doesn`t.

----------


## Aioros22

> Just a question, If they decided to keep the hood on Jason's uniform, could you guys swallow them loosing the helmet and giving him a red domino mask?


The helmet staying is pretty much a go, whether one likes it or not. It`s visually identifiable to Jason now and that`s a good thing. 

I like it btw. I don`t mind when Spiderman or Iron Man, or Deadpool have expressive looking masks or helmets depending the pencils. It`s comics, the visual media where you can bend those kind of little realistic rules. I do prefer a clean styled helmet with just the eyes, just to be clear. The hood over can be a nice touch but doesn`t make or break the overall design for me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Just a question, If they decided to keep the hood on Jason's uniform, could you guys swallow them loosing the helmet and giving him a red domino mask?


If they kept the hood I'd rather have the helmet as opposed to a mask as well as full leather jacket and not that danged vest. I hated that thing. Damian is already rocking the domino mask & hood combo anyway and it's better if each of the Robins has a visually distinctive costume that makes it easier for the artists not to confuse them.

----------


## Robotman

definitely keep the red helmet. many artist make Jason, Dick, and Tim look way too similar already. the helmet at least gives Jason a distinct look. 

i don't mind when artist put their own spin on the helmet. some with moving facial expressions, some with a solid red helmet, etc. I'm sure Jason has many different "red hoods" in his arsenal the same way Batman has many different Batsuits. but i personally hate the hoodie. they need to bring back the trench coat or even the gray and red jacket he wore in Arkham Knight.

i'm looking forward to RH appearance in Deathstroke. i would love to see a mini series featuring these two.

----------


## sghood

Yeah it just makes more sense to me to draw jason bigger than all the others since acrobats and tims a gymnast or something right? so their body types would be leaner and obviously damians young but if they ever age him up he should be even bigger than bruce. I'd keep the helmet with just the eyes and no facial expressions cause i think the whole point of the helmet is to hide his emotions and the look in his eyes. But I also agree that he would have different helmets and that maybe some of them aren't "helmets" but more just like a mask. the hood with domino mask combo could work if they brought back the white streak in his hair. they should bring the white back either way though lol. Also im wondering if they'll ever introduce jason and tim into the new animated universe

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah it just makes more sense to me to draw jason bigger than all the others since acrobats and tims a gymnast or something right? so their body types would be leaner and obviously damians young but if they ever age him up he should be even bigger than bruce. I'd keep the helmet with just the eyes and no facial expressions cause i think the whole point of the helmet is to hide his emotions and the look in his eyes. But I also agree that he would have different helmets and that maybe some of them aren't "helmets" but more just like a mask. the hood with domino mask combo could work if they brought back the white streak in his hair. they should bring the white back either way though lol. Also im wondering if they'll ever introduce jason and tim into the new animated universe


I'd really like the white streak to be brought back as well. That would make Jason visually different from the others whenever they are together out of costume.

----------


## AJpyro

> I'd really like the white streak to be brought back as well. That would make Jason visually different from the others whenever they are together out of costume.


I honestly would liek if the brought it back. it would make for a great and only reminder that he died and got bathed in evil soup to come back.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'd really like the white streak to be brought back as well. That would make Jason visually different from the others whenever they are together out of costume.


Or they could make him a redhead again.

*runs and hides*

----------


## AJpyro

> Or they could make him a redhead again.
> 
> *runs and hides*


Really? How'd he look?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Or they could make him a redhead again.
> 
> *runs and hides*


Or a redhead with a white streak.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Robotman

> I'd really like the white streak to be brought back as well. That would make Jason visually different from the others whenever they are together out of costume.


i would love to see the white streak in his hair brought back. it would definitely be a good way to differentiate him from the other Batboys. plus that usually signifies that a character has been through a traumatic experience. i would think being brought back from the dead would be pretty dramatic.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> i would love to see the white streak in his hair brought back. it would definitely be a good way to differentiate him from the other Batboys. plus* that usually signifies that a character has been through a traumatic experience*. i would think being brought back from the dead would be pretty dramatic.


I think the reason for him having it the first place was to signify that he's been through something traumatic both with his death and with his resurrection.

----------


## Aioros22

> Or they could make him a redhead again.
> 
> *runs and hides*


Him being a redhead or not is far from being a dealbreaker. All I ask is consistancy, nothing less. Same thing with the white streak. That could explain him aging closer to Dick as direct result of the Pit, but the reboot left out a decisive explanation for his return. 

Sometimes that isn`t a bad thing either. A mistery surrouding the character only amps up the mythos. Look at V for Vendetta or the pre Origin Wolverine. In one case the mistery of his identity only makes the story stronger with each re-reading and in the other, revealing the mistery of the origin only lessened what surrounded the character. "My" Wolverine was the short savage who had flashbacks of his past here and there and who may or may not be the son of Sabertooth. That was cool because what mattered most was his travels from that point on, whatever it was, until he was with the X-Men. 

And I enjoyed Origin as a comic book, but as lasting legacy of the character? I prefered the mistery before. 

I think the same can apply here. Obviously if Talia is involved chances are the Pit is as well, but you don`t have to spell it out. It doesn`t even ruin Lost Days since it starts when Talia grabs him from wharever. This adds the gravitas of writers slowly building the lost time with small stuff if they wish, like Loedbell did with the All-Caste.

----------


## Aioros22

> Really? How'd he look?


You can track Winnick`s Batman and Robin issues (when Dick was doning the mantle) to see it. Or Morrison a couple issues before. 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...n/bnr23-05.jpg
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llf8ygTLR91qgsmk4.jpg
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llf8z5ugT61qgsmk4.jpg

By the way, I am wholy in favor of Jason reading literature as it was hinted by Winnick twice. Jason knowing Pride and Prejudice is just too bloody perfect. It`s one of those details that only add personality and character. A lesser creative take would have him reading The Art Of War but this simply hits a more personal place. 

Perfect.

----------


## AJpyro

> You can track Winnick`s Batman and Robin issues (when Dick was doning the mantle) to see it. Or Morrison a couple issues before. 
> 
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...n/bnr23-05.jpg
> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llf8ygTLR91qgsmk4.jpg
> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llf8z5ugT61qgsmk4.jpg
> 
> By the way, I am wholy in favor of Jason reading literature as it was hinted by Winnick twice. Jason knowing Pride and Prejudice is just too bloody perfect. It`s one of those details that only add personality and character. A lesser creative take would have him reading The Art Of War but this simply hits a more personal place. 
> 
> Perfect.


He's not bad. Woulda brought a funny and weird synergy to the RHatO with all being redheads. The Redheaded Stepchild Squad!

----------


## oasis1313

> He's not bad. Woulda brought a funny and weird synergy to the RHatO with all being redheads. The Redheaded Stepchild Squad!


Hey, I LIKE that!  I'd really like to see Scarlet again, too.  If Jason is going to depicted as having black hair, though, I want to see that white streak in it.  If Marvel's colorists can manage to be consistent with Rogue, DC should be able to pay somebody to keep up with Jason.  I like Jason being larger, too, to help differentiate him from the others, who all look like little clones.  It's reasonable that, coming from a family history of acrobats, Dick isn't ever going to reach 6'6".  Tim is young yet, might grow some more,and most gymnasts aren't huge.  Damian will grow up to be a MOOSE like his dad.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hey, I LIKE that!  I'd really like to see Scarlet again, too.  If Jason is going to depicted as having black hair, though, I want to see that white streak in it.  If Marvel's colorists can manage to be consistent with Rogue, DC should be able to pay somebody to keep up with Jason.  I like Jason being larger, too, to help differentiate him from the others, who all look like little clones.  It's reasonable that, coming from a family history of acrobats, Dick isn't ever going to reach 6'6".  Tim is young yet, might grow some more,and most gymnasts aren't huge.  Damian will grow up to be a MOOSE like his dad.


In my head I've always seen Jason as being more muscular and taller then either Dick or Tim but not as large as Bruce. Damian could go either way mainly because he's been training all his life. I think his musculature will turn out a bit different then his dad's in that he may not be a bulky as his father but he will certainly be as strong.

----------


## Kurtzberg

> In my head I've always seen Jason as being more muscular and taller then either Dick or Tim but not as large as Bruce. Damian could go either way mainly because he's been training all his life. I think his musculature will turn out a bit different then his dad's in that he may not be a bulky as his father but he will certainly be as strong.


I imagine Damian would end up being physically bigger than Bruce. The Heretic was just a full grown Damian clone right? And all the other Damian clones were massive. I mean, we'll never actually see Damian grow up really, but he's all genetically engineered for perfection or whatever. I imagine Talia's idea of perfection fully realized was a bigger, stronger, faster Bruce.

----------


## Godlike13

> I imagine Damian would end up being physically bigger than Bruce. The Heretic was just a full grown Damian clone right? And all the other Damian clones were massive. I mean, we'll never actually see Damian grow up really, but he's all genetically engineered for perfection or whatever. I imagine Talia's idea of perfection fully realized was a bigger, stronger, faster Bruce.


Batman 666 dude.

----------


## Kurtzberg

> Batman 666 dude.


Yes, but in that future, everyone else is dead. There isn't anyone else to really physically compare him to, he's just a large, muscled bald man who looks vaguely like Grant Morrison. Also, that's all a hallucination conjured by Bruce's mind, a prophetic dream that ended up being wrong anyways.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yes, but in that future, everyone else is dead. There isn't anyone else to really physically compare him to, he's just a large, muscled bald man who looks vaguely like Grant Morrison. Also, that's all a hallucination conjured by Bruce's mind, a prophetic dream that ended up being wrong anyways.


Still, it was a made up future by Damian's creators and probably the truest idea of what an adult Damian is suppose to look like. The heretic was a mutated clone child. Nothing about his growth was natural.

----------


## REAL

Deathstroke 16

"Douchestroke".

Okay, this made me laugh.

----------


## Aahz

Lets just hope Jason doesn't get his Ass Kicked in the next panel.

----------


## Aioros22

Of course he will, he just said he was there to kick his ass  :Wink: 

If Jason solo does a smidge better than Nigthwing ever did, the uproar could be beautiful. Then again, I`m not sure many are following the title anyway.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Deathstroke 16
> 
> "Douchestroke".
> 
> Okay, this made me laugh.


That line was funny. I can't wait to see what happens on the next page.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Deathstroke 16
> 
> "Douchestroke".
> 
> Okay, this made me laugh.


And we're back again with Jason trying to prove himself before anyone else....yay.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And we're back again with Jason trying to prove himself before anyone else....yay.


No, we're really not. Jason even mentions that he not someone who is trying to make a name for himself by beating Deathstroke because he already HAS made a name for himself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No, we're really not. Jason even mentions that he not someone who is trying to make a name for himself by beating Deathstroke because he already HAS made a name for himself.


That is the thing, Jason's character is at a point on which he shouldn't answer to that kind of taunting.

----------


## Robotman

I'm not liking how Jason's mask is being drawn here. He looks like an android of something.

----------


## Aahz

> That line was funny. I can't wait to see what happens on the next page.


I'm hoping for a good fight and not that Slade just one shots him in the next panel.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm hoping for a good fight and not that Slade just one shots him in the next panel.


Yeah, me too. A good fight that doesn't job either one of them would be nice to see.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Lets just hope Jason doesn't get his Ass Kicked in the next panel.


Of course he will...it's freaking Deathstroke. The dude just survived fighting a group of Bizzaro clones, and a weakened Slade could still mentally keep up, and predict, all of Batman's moves. A healthy Deathstroke drops pretty much every member of the Bat Family in 1v1 combat.

Having Jason put up a good fight will be cool tho, but he'll get dropped in due time.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'm not liking how Jason's mask is being drawn here. He looks like an android of something.


They just need to drop the face on the helmet thing. What's so wrong with the way it's drawn by Albuquerque, or on the cover of the freaking issue?

Come on, DC.

----------


## Aahz

> Of course he will...it's freaking Deathstroke. The dude just survived fighting a group of Bizzaro clones, and a weakened Slade could still mentally keep up, and predict, all of Batman's moves. A healthy Deathstroke drops pretty much every member of the Bat Family in 1v1 combat.
> 
> Having Jason put up a good fight will be cool tho, but he'll get dropped in due time.


It's pretty clear that Jason will not win, all I want is him putting up a good fight and not getting stomped (so not something like this fight against Bane in B&RE).

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It's pretty clear that Jason will not win, all I want is him putting up a good fight and not getting stomped (so not something like this fight against Bane in B&RE).


well, it is a Deathstroke book...and the way he's been portrayed.....yeah, not likely.

I'm a huge Jason fan, but I'll admit that him getting dispatched in a few panels wouldn't be out of character for either considering it's Slade we're talking about here. None of Jason's hits, should he even land any, should even register on Slade's person if the fight is written as it should; which is, unfortunately, Jason getting rekt.

If Jason wasn't portrayed so inconsistently, sure, but he is. IMO, the dude should be second to Batman in the Bat Family considering the training he did after he came back.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> well, it is a Deathstroke book...and the way he's been portrayed.....yeah, not likely.
> 
> I'm a huge Jason fan, but I'll admit that him getting dispatched in a few panels wouldn't be out of character for either considering it's Slade we're talking about here. None of Jason's hits, should he even land any, should even register on Slade's person if the fight is written as it should; which is, unfortunately, Jason getting rekt.
> 
> If Jason wasn't portrayed so inconsistently, sure, but he is. IMO, the dude should be second to Batman in the Bat Family considering the training he did after he came back.


I'd simply be satisfied if Jason is able to put up a decent fight against Deathstroke and that neither character comes off looking badly as a result. I'm not in any way suggesting that Jay actually beats the guy though.

----------


## Aahz

I already find it disappointing tat Jason attacking Slade like this. When fighting against someone like Slade he should have strategy, weapons and use some dirty tricks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Deathstroke went disappointingly predictable, with Jason just having an advantage because Slade was handicapped and ultimately, was punked. And yeah, they went with "the gloryhound" angle for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

With the writer in question it was a given. But hey, someone else he did better solo compared to Nigthwing. Drink`s on me.

----------


## REAL

I like it. Both did good and look like Jason is going to appear in the next issue too.

----------


## Astromime

The fight was alright, glad he didn't get curb stomped in like, 3 seconds. I liked Rose's cameo in the last part of RHAO, so it'd be interesting to see where they go with that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Color me surprised, RH/A will have a thirteen issue

http://www.newsarama.com/28534-first...16-titles.html

----------


## AJpyro

> Color me surprised, RH/A will have a thirteen issue
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/28534-first...16-titles.html


Whawawewha. Neat.

----------


## kaimaciel

Guy's, Red Hood News: 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...reaking_banner

_""Red Hood & The Outlaws," shipping in August, will be written by Scott Lobdell with art by Dexter Soy. Bizarro and Artemis, of the Amazons, will join Red Hood for what Geoff Johns called a "dark trinity.""_

So, is Roy leaving to join the Titans? Bizarro is gonna be in the team? And this Artemis... is she a new character or the one from Young Justice? So many questions.

The Dark Trinity. I assume they mean the dark side of Batman (Red Hood), Superman (Bizarro) and Wonder Woman (Artemis). Does this mean Jason is gonna become a villain again? I honestly hope it's not that.

----------


## Aahz

> And this Artemis... is she a new character or the one from Young Justice? So many questions.


Probaly the new 52 version of this Charcater:http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Artemis_of_...28New_Earth%29

----------


## vasir12

> Guy's, Red Hood News: 
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...reaking_banner
> 
> _""Red Hood & The Outlaws," shipping in August, will be written by Scott Lobdell with art by Dexter Soy. Bizarro and Artemis, of the Amazons, will join Red Hood for what Geoff Johns called a "dark trinity.""_
> 
> So, is Roy leaving to join the Titans? Bizarro is gonna be in the team? And this Artemis... is she a new character or the one from Young Justice? So many questions.
> 
> The Dark Trinity. I assume they mean the dark side of Batman (Red Hood), Superman (Bizarro) and Wonder Woman (Artemis). Does this mean Jason is gonna become a villain again? I honestly hope it's not that.


Roy is clearly with the Titans. The Artemis in the Outlaws is the amazon. It could be that they all become anti-heroes. Doing good the hard way and all that.

----------


## Rac7d*

way to get the shortend of the stick
bizarro, lex luthors flunky, and wonder woman with anger issues
and of course daddy lobdell is still here

so basicly Jason has to carry his book on its own, its gonna get cancelled

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Guy's, Red Hood News: 
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...reaking_banner
> 
> _""Red Hood & The Outlaws," shipping in August, will be written by Scott Lobdell with art by Dexter Soy. Bizarro and Artemis, of the Amazons, will join Red Hood for what Geoff Johns called a "dark trinity.""_
> 
> So, is Roy leaving to join the Titans? Bizarro is gonna be in the team? And this Artemis... is she a new character or the one from Young Justice? So many questions.
> 
> The Dark Trinity. I assume they mean the dark side of Batman (Red Hood), Superman (Bizarro) and Wonder Woman (Artemis). Does this mean Jason is gonna become a villain again? I honestly hope it's not that.


I'll miss Roy and the line up is very unexpected but the book has a TON of potential. The idea of Jason leading an antihero version of the trinity is too good to let it pass.

----------


## Godlike13

Why in the hell can't Jason get away from Lobdell. Red Hood is only going to continue to get buried under mediocrity and ignored, and his book will again be pointed to as the benchmark for whats bad at DC.

----------


## godisawesome

Even as a Lobdell hater myself, I will defend the decision to keep him on the book for the simple reason that he seems to have built a consistent fanbase on it. I personally think it's mediocre and not as good as it should be, but the guy knows how to write Jason's personality on a monthly basis, and you can see from the book's fans above that they find it engaging.

I won't buy it myself, but I'l applaud its continued success in keeping Jason with a decent-ish monthly book.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why in the hell can't Jason get away from Lobdell. Red Hood is only going to continue to get buried under mediocrity and ignored, and his book will again be pointed to as the benchmark for whats bad at DC.


Loedbell got his faults. Getting Jason overall isn`t one of them. I was hoping for some new take and blood but at least they are sticking with someone who gets him instead of someone we know that doesn`t.

----------


## Aahz

> Loedbell got his faults. Getting Jason overall isn`t one of them. I was hoping for some new take and blood but at least they are sticking with someone who gets him instead of someone we know that doesn`t.


Yeah, unfortunatly many other writers that used him in the new 52, didn't made a good job in writing him.

I would have also liked to see something more in the direction of Red Hood the Lost days or RHatO Futures End, but imo it could have been worse.

----------


## OWL45

> Why in the hell can't Jason get away from Lobdell. Red Hood is only going to continue to get buried under mediocrity and ignored, and his book will again be pointed to as the benchmark for whats bad at DC.


I agree with you on this. This is far from what I expected and was probably the most dissapointing. They need to send this character back to the Bat Office. Jason is more than capable of carrying a solo title with a few supporting characters. This just doesn't cut it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah, unfortunatly many other writers that used him in the new 52, didn't made a good job in writing him.
> 
> I would have also liked to see something more in the direction of Red Hood the Lost days or RHatO Futures End, but imo it could have been worse.


Considering Johns himself used "Dark Trinity" to refer at the new Outlaws, I'm betting the tone of the book will be considerably darker compared to RH/A

----------


## Aahz

> Considering Johns himself used "Dark Trinity" to refer at the new Outlaws, I'm betting the tone of the book will be considerably darker compared to RH/A


With Bizzaro? Maybe if got a wrong picture of him (i only know him from the DCAU) but isn't this guy some kind of parody?

And I would have liked to see Jason go up against more ordinary criminals but with two heavy hitters, that will probably not happen.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Sigh....I'm probably not gonna get this book. I wanted a new writer liker every other Bat Book, and a new take.

Sad day.

----------


## btmarine23

> Sigh....I'm probably not gonna get this book. I wanted a new writer liker every other Bat Book, and a new take.
> 
> Sad day.


I kind of agree, I don't like Lobdell on Red Hood at all.  I don't like the current take on Red Hood at all.  Mad props to people who like him and the book.  All the respect in the world for Lobdell, I just don't like the direction of the book/Jason.  I will not buy this unless it is completely reimagined.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I kind of agree, I don't like Lobdell on Red Hood at all.  I don't like the current take on Red Hood at all.  Mad props to people who like him and the book.  All the respect in the world for Lobdell, I just don't like the direction of the book/Jason.  I will not buy this unless it is completely reimagined.


I just hope for a UtRH DCEU adaptation is in the works, because they tend to make the characters match the movie version.

Now I don't want villain Jason again, obviously. Just a solo; I'm tired of seeing him on a team.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I just hope for a UtRH DCEU adaptation is in the works, because they tend to make the characters match the movie version.
> 
> Now I don't want villain Jason again, obviously. Just a solo; I'm tired of seeing him on a team.


A solo Jason is something we have really never seen.  I wonder why?  I guess the writers just believe his defining character traits require constant interaction with other regulars to draw out.

They may be contemplating a UTRH  adaptation, but as has been said on the BvS threads they will have to come at it from a different angle.  Given the type of Batman portrayed in the movie, a straight UTRH  just wouldn't fly, as no one would believe that Batfleck would not kill, or at least permanently cripple, the Joker.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> A solo Jason is something we have really never seen.  I wonder why?  I guess the writers just believe his defining character traits require constant interaction with other regulars to draw out.
> 
> They may be contemplating a UTRH  adaptation, but as has been said on the BvS threads they will have to come at it from a different angle.  Given the type of Batman portrayed in the movie, a straight UTRH  just wouldn't fly, as no one would believe that Batfleck would not kill, or at least permanently cripple, the Joker.


Here's my response to that:




> Actually Batman having killed in this movie, imo, makes a potential UtRH adaptation even more interesting. 
> 
> In the movie, it's briefly discussed by Bruce and Alfred that he's changed since the events of MoS. Alfred says that he's become just another criminal, of which Bruce agrees, and claims he's always been one; nothing's changed. Alfred suggests otherwise. In another scene, Bruce talks about how he's older than his father was, and talking about his failure to save the city; "Criminals are like weeds. For every one that he plucked, five took its place."
> 
> Basically he's given up hope in Gotham, and he's kinda lost his fire. However, Superman's actions towards the end seem to inspire him/reignite that fire; at least by the speech he gives about humanity, and overcoming, seems to imply that. The fact that he neither brands, hits, nor kills Lex at the end also implies that change of heart. 
> 
> UtRH could have Jason know that Bruce has killed bfefore, and is shocked to see that he's stopped. This could be a scenario where we have a Batman that has killed, and he sees how it twist a person; it's not satisfying, either. That would be a rather nuanced twist that wouldn't make Batman sound as irrational as he could in front of a casual audience, and just enhance the story in general, I think.
> 
> Thoughts?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Danged the one book I thought I could count on and they've saddled Jay with Bizzaro of all characters? WTF! And Johns calling them a "Dark Trinity" doesn't make me feel confident of the direction here either even with Lobdell at the helm still. Sadly, this rendition of RHatO is going to be getting just a trial period of three issues from me instead of being an instant pull like I thought it would be. DC continues to crap on my pull list.  :Mad:

----------


## Dzetoun

> Here's my response to that:


That's possible I suppose.  It would depend greatly on each person's response to BvS.  If you found that much nuance and room for interpretation in BvS, I am sure you could find justification for a more-or-less straight UTRH  adaptation.  It would likely be one of those things that would divide the audience sharply into different camps with little middle ground, but that wouldn't be anything new for a Snyder film.

It would also depend greatly on how they handled the ending.  I am not sure the open-ended downer (or pyrrhic victory) of UTRH would work with a movie audience, unless it was clearly the setup for a sequel. Of course, long-term it has been the root of the problem DC has with Jason.  The problem UTRH presented for DC from a strategic point of view was that it put a whole tangle of issues on the table without a clear plan for taking them off again. If the movie had a more definitive resolution (or at least the promise thereof) it might work better for a general audience.

----------


## AJpyro

Wow.

First Marvel does Death of X and now this. It's like both are telling me to go to Valiant and Manga.

----------


## Astromime

I'm hoping Jason makes frequent cameos in detective comics. He's been back for years and it still feels like he's the unwanted child of the bat office.

Does anyone know if Artemis has shown up or gotten a mention in new 52 yet? Because I feel he got the REALLY short end of the stick this time.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm hoping Jason makes frequent cameos in detective comics. He's been back for years and it still feels like he's the unwanted child of the bat office.
> 
> Does anyone know if Artemis has shown up or gotten a mention in new 52 yet? Because I feel he got the REALLY short end of the stick this time.


If being unwanted means not being written by Tynion, so be it.




> With Bizzaro? Maybe if got a wrong picture of him (i only know him from the DCAU) but isn't this guy some kind of parody?
> 
> And I would have liked to see Jason go up against more ordinary criminals but with two heavy hitters, that will probably not happen.


That is N52 Bizarro whom is more of a tragic figure, basically a sort of Frankestein monster that only wanted to make his "father" (Lex) proud.

----------


## REAL

Not again...

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That's possible I suppose.  It would depend greatly on each person's response to BvS.  If you found that much nuance and room for interpretation in BvS, I am sure you could find justification for a more-or-less straight UTRH  adaptation.  It would likely be one of those things that would divide the audience sharply into different camps with little middle ground, but that wouldn't be anything new for a Snyder film.
> 
> It would also depend greatly on how they handled the ending.  I am not sure the open-ended downer (or pyrrhic victory) of UTRH would work with a movie audience, unless it was clearly the setup for a sequel. Of course, long-term it has been the root of the problem DC has with Jason.  The problem UTRH presented for DC from a strategic point of view was that it put a whole tangle of issues on the table without a clear plan for taking them off again. If the movie had a more definitive resolution (or at least the promise thereof) it might work better for a general audience.


Well, they can just have Alfred say that Bruce has been going easier, or "gone soft", since Superman, in his sarcastic manner; "you can no longer be accused of manslaughter". That sells the change.

Also, I think we can assume that Affleck will be directing. Not Snyder. Also, a Batfleck movie ending on a dower note would be that surprising. However, it could end with Red Hood being arrested, and we get an end credits scene of Amanda Waller walking up to his cell, giving him an offer. Or someone with an owl mask...

I think that the theme of the movie could be focused on one of the brilliant quotes from BvS: "The world only makes sense, if you force it to." That's a line that captures the entirety of the Batman franchise, I think.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Also, if this was REALLY supposed to be a "Dark Trinity"...I would've replaced Artemis with Grail.

A whole team with daddy issues lol. That and Grail is pretty badass.

Hell, if Lex really has turned a new leaf, which he kinda has, I think a really interesting idea could've been Jason working for Lex "Super-Man" Luthor, eliminating threats around the world. Add in Grail, whom Luthor has control over because his time with the Omega Sanction has given him insight in how to limit, or restrain, her power, and that would be a real "Dark Trinity"; dark reflections of the Trinity, as well as characters that were major adversaries.

IDK, I find it more interesting than the team we've got now.

----------


## AJpyro

Okay I was a debby downer yesterday but that's because Marvel likes harshing my buzz.

But after reading some feel good manga, I'm back to say...I'm kinda sorta interested. I have no clue who Bizarro and Artemis of this verse are so I'm going into new territory. I will miss Roy and Duela though and hope Lobdell gives them a nice farewell.

and Dark Trinity...I dunno. I wanna hope it doesn't mean evil. More like to stands in the anti-hero area that may or may not backpedal into evil/darkness. Bizarro is a messed up clone in most continuities and I still have no idea about Artemis. Looks like Jay might have to put in overtime to keep them in line. 

The Red hood Correctional Course: Pimp Punching and Alien Invasion studies.

And as for Lobdell continuing, I'm fine with it. New blood would be appreciated but no one seems to either want to write Jason or cares enough to write him well enough. Cept Judd Winick but I won't hold my breath on him returning. I'd take someone caring and consistent characterization over half baked writing.

Now if DC (and MARVEL!) would cool down with events, let a status quo settle in, and get my my darn RH Omni, I'd be a happier camper.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Okay I was a debby downer yesterday but that's because Marvel likes harshing my buzz.
> 
> *But after reading some feel good manga,* I'm back to say...I'm kinda sorta interested. I have no clue who Bizarro and Artemis of this verse are so I'm going into new territory. I will miss Roy and Duela though and hope Lobdell gives them a nice farewell.
> 
> and Dark Trinity...I dunno. I wanna hope it doesn't mean evil. More like to stands in the anti-hero area that may or may not backpedal into evil/darkness. Bizarro is a messed up clone in most continuities and I still have no idea about Artemis. Looks like Jay might have to put in overtime to keep them in line. 
> 
> The Red hood Correctional Course: Pimp Punching and Alien Invasion studies.
> 
> And as for Lobdell continuing, I'm fine with it. New blood would be appreciated but no one seems to either want to write Jason or cares enough to write him well enough. Cept Judd Winick but I won't hold my breath on him returning. I'd take someone caring and consistent characterization over half baked writing.
> ...


Which manga do/did you read?

----------


## sghood

Was a little disapointed that dc didn't decide to to get a new writer for this book. Lobdells done some good stuff but this was a good chance to get some new blood to energize a mostly mediocre book. I agree that he's built a somewhat steady fanbase and that's why they let him stay on it. I was also desperately hoping rose wilson would be on the team so hopefully she shows up at some point or lobdell expands the team. I really don't want it to be jason playing babysitter keeping them in line. Is he going to continue the mercenary business? whats the tone? whats gonna happen to duela? so many questions lol. early prediction: lobdell hooks jason and artemis up. Hoping to see jason show up in detective comics. Want to see some artwork for this soon! soys art is pretty cool, i liked it on the last issue.

----------


## AJpyro

> Which manga do/did you read?


Recent buys like Noragami and some older stuff like Azumanga Daioh, Yotsuba, Fruits Basket, and some new stuff I hear about online like Hero Academia, One Punch Man, etc.

Feels good man.

----------


## Aioros22

> Also, if this was REALLY supposed to be a "Dark Trinity"...I would've replaced Artemis with Grail.
> 
> A whole team with daddy issues lol. That and Grail is pretty badass.
> 
> Hell, if Lex really has turned a new leaf, which he kinda has, I think a really interesting idea could've been Jason working for Lex "Super-Man" Luthor, eliminating threats around the world. Add in Grail, whom Luthor has control over because his time with the Omega Sanction has given him insight in how to limit, or restrain, her power, and that would be a real "Dark Trinity"; dark reflections of the Trinity, as well as characters that were major adversaries.
> 
> IDK, I find it more interesting than the team we've got now.


Hey, I find that idea pretty interesting. If anything the one thing I`d be a bit setback would be Jason willingly working for Luthor. He`s different than Bruce but I`m not sure he would agree with working on the terms of someone he knows has been a torn to Superman and co so long. Maybe working on the inside to keep tabs on him tho?




> Was a little disapointed that dc didn't decide to to get a new writer for this book. Lobdells done some good stuff but this was a good chance to get some new blood to energize a mostly mediocre book. I agree that he's built a somewhat steady fanbase and that's why they let him stay on it. I was also desperately hoping rose wilson would be on the team so hopefully she shows up at some point or lobdell expands the team. I really don't want it to be jason playing babysitter keeping them in line. Is he going to continue the mercenary business? whats the tone? whats gonna happen to duela? so many questions lol. early prediction: lobdell hooks jason and artemis up. Hoping to see jason show up in detective comics. Want to see some artwork for this soon! soys art is pretty cool, i liked it on the last issue.


Yeah, it would be a nice chance to get new blood. 

I`m getting the title being sold as darker reflections of the Trinity, not vilains. It kind of works, since they are all more tragic characters but it not carefully done it can be translated as daddy issues. 

It`s nice drama but we`re supposed to be mostly past that. Then again not even Grayson is above that kind of attention, as we`ve seen with Robin: Eternal. All I`m hoping for now is to know ore details about the tone of the book and the balance or lack thereof of that main theme. That is what is going to matter the most to me. 

I`m thinking this Artemis is similar to the one who once replaced Diana as the titular Wonder Woman, years back?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Hey, I find that idea pretty interesting. If anything the one thing I`d be a bit setback would be Jason willingly working for Luthor. He`s different than Bruce but I`m not sure he would agree with working on the terms of someone he knows has been a torn to Superman and co so long. Maybe working on the inside to keep tabs on him tho?


Yeah, that'd be cool. It could be that Batman asked (rather than told, like he did with Dick) if he'd be willing to align himself with Lex to watch him. Like Grayson, but much cooler with Lex, and Grail, being involved.

Man....now I'm depressed this isn't happening....  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

No good idea goes unpunished  :Cool: 

I hope at least, regardless of what the tone of the book will be, that they touch upon what happens with Roy and Duela in terms of their partnership with Jay.

----------


## RedQueen

> I'm hoping Jason makes frequent cameos in detective comics. He's been back for years and it still feels like he's the unwanted child of the bat office.
> 
> Does anyone know if Artemis has shown up or gotten a mention in new 52 yet? Because I feel he got the REALLY short end of the stick this time.


Artemis hasn't shown up at all. Azzarello straight up said he's wasn't going to include and I suspect that he didn't want the goddess Artemis and the amazon Artemis getting confused with. There was a lookalike called Aleeka but she dead.

She's a cool character though. She once had a go at being Wonder Woman in the 90s. She's usually a major player in Diana's Themyscrica storylines sans New 52. Gail Simone gave some great spunk to her character.

How she interacts with Jason though is a mystery.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

This is it, the final Solicit for Red Hood/Arsenal.

RED HOOD/ARSENAL #13
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by JOE BENNETT
Cover by ROBSON ROCHA
The Joker’s Daughter’s master plan is revealed! Are Jason and Roy strong enough take down both Duela and the Iron Rule? And what will it cost them? Find out in the shocking conclusion to RED HOOD/ ARSENAL!
On sale JUNE 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T • FINAL ISSUE

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> No good idea goes unpunished 
> 
> I hope at least, regardless of what the tone of the book will be, that they touch upon what happens with Roy and Duela in terms of their partnership with Jay.


Looks like betrayal (Duela), and heartbreak (Roy), is what breaks them away from Jason. I'm also guessing that Jason's willingness to eradicate the Iron Rule in the manner he likely will, is what's gonna make Roy be like "Whoa....I can't work with this guy anymore...".

----------


## scary harpy

I hate the way Jason is being treated. I feel like he is being jerked around for no good reason.

I mean Artemis and Bizarro? The dark Trinity? Really? 

Why can't Roy stay with Jay and be with the Titans? Damian is in 2 titles. Nightwing is in 2 titles. Why can't Roy?

Artemis is a good match for Jay's personality but not Bizarro. I think Jay works best with other _'fallen' Titans_. (That's the best way I can think to describe them.)

Goodness knows, there are *a lot* of other Titans waiting to be reintroduced!

----------


## Aioros22

> Looks like betrayal (Duela), and heartbreak (Roy), is what breaks them away from Jason. I'm also guessing that Jason's willingness to eradicate the Iron Rule in the manner he likely will, is what's gonna make Roy be like "Whoa....I can't work with this guy anymore...".


Yeah, now that I`ve seen the latest solicit that seems to be the case. I wonder if Roy breaking apart the partnership and Duela failing to comply in her redemption will be a plot excuse for Jason stepping back his redemption story too..




> I hate the way Jason is being treated. I feel like he is being jerked around for no good reason.
> 
> I mean Artemis and Bizarro? The dark Trinity? Really? 
> 
> Why can't Roy stay with Jay and be with the Titans? Damian is in 2 titles. Nightwing is in 2 titles. Why can't Roy?
> 
> Artemis is a good match for Jay's personality but not Bizarro. I think Jay works best with other _'fallen' Titans_. (That's the best way I can think to describe them.)
> 
> Goodness knows, there are *a lot* of other Titans waiting to be reintroduced!


..because it certainly doesn`t require to be that way. In a way I can see him being part of a "Dark Trinity" as something that _can_ be good (and in that regard Loedbell being in the helm should at least mean Jay won`t be written as a villain - whew!) across offices and with writers who doesn`t usually use him. Makes him more instantly recognizable or appealing I guess. 

The bad is letting that define him. All in all it`s a fine line, but a good number of aspects in the reboot have been and not all were badly handled.

Of course, just like the "better than Batman" tagline for Nigthwing, "Dark Trinity" can be nothing more than a tongue in cheeck line about a vague tone for the book.

----------


## Aahz

I'm still wondering if they are planing with this Dark Trinity on the long run (like with Roy and Kori), or if it is anyway just for the next year.

And I finally want a Jason Solo Title. They gave solos to Talon, Batwing and Midnigther, you can't tell me that Jason (and Tim) wouldn't be able to sell as many issues as these guys.

----------


## Badou

Yeah, Jason really should have gotten a solo book. I guess they want to try to keep the Red Hood and the Outlaws branding going, but I think a Red Hood solo title would have been good enough. Probably would sell better too. Also I actually would have rather had Roy stay in Jason's book as his dynamic with Jason was far better than it was with any of the Titans characters. Didn't like Starfire there, but Jason/Roy worked well. I just have so little interest in him in that Titans book, and if Roy suddenly acts like best friends with Dick, Donna, or Garth it would feel like a slap in the face to Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm surprised no one has caught on the subtle theme that ties the three characters together (and no doubt, the main reason they were picked to be "dark Trinity") at some point or another in their publication story, they raised as the "anti-hero" sucessors of the originals.

The pitch and the art makes me assume this book will skirt more into the grey (think the future's end issue) that separates heroes from villians something that I guess will please people that thought Jason was too much of a nice guy on RHATO and RH/A

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm surprised no one has caught on the subtle theme that ties the three characters together (and no doubt, the main reason they were picked to be "dark Trinity") at some point or another in their publication story, they raised as the "anti-hero" sucessors of the originals.
> 
> The pitch and the art makes me assume this book will skirt more into the grey (think the future's end issue) that separates heroes from villians something that I guess will please people that thought Jason was too much of a nice guy on RHATO and RH/A


That's a very good point and yeah I did miss that aspect of it. Nice catch. Um....now that does make me more interested in this then I was before. Going into a grayer area with Jason a la the Future's End issue would be okay so long as it's tempered with his recent characterization. The danger here, I suppose, would be that they start leaning toward making him a villain again but if they maintain some kind of balance here I think it could be a very interesting direction and maybe an interesting team as well. Guess we'll have to see how it goes.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm surprised no one has caught on the subtle theme that ties the three characters together (and no doubt, the main reason they were picked to be "dark Trinity") at some point or another in their publication story, they raised as the "anti-hero" sucessors of the originals.
> 
> The pitch and the art makes me assume this book will skirt more into the grey (think the future's end issue) that separates heroes from villians something that I guess will please people that thought Jason was too much of a nice guy on RHATO and RH/A


I think the three being darker reflections of the Trinity was brought up. The Artemis I thought about right away was the one who replaced Diana after winning the Contest back in the 90`s, not the Young Justice sidekick. 

If Jason is being written veering towards Future End`s, I have no qualms since that was one of the stronger issues of Loedbell and surely enough where it was first hinted that both Kory and Roy would both one day split with him for different reasons. There`s also little gain in writing Jason and by extension the other two as villains. They were antagonists once but the one usually used like that, Bizzaro, is usually by proxis of someone pulling his strings. On his own Bizarro is never a villain. And since Loedbell is writting it, there`s no way they will throw out all the recent characterization out of the window. Keeping them in the gray with their own agenda again  makes them malleable and markeatable. 

Also, this way, the Outlaws are definatly a bigger force to be reckoned with in the actual power scale. Despite the personal sanction Jason have gotten from both Bruce and Superman I wonder how Luthor is going to deal with them on a formal stance.

----------


## AJpyro

> I'm surprised no one has caught on the subtle theme that ties the three characters together (and no doubt, the main reason they were picked to be "dark Trinity") at some point or another in their publication story, they raised as the "anti-hero" sucessors of the originals.
> 
> The pitch and the art makes me assume this book will skirt more into the grey (think the future's end issue) that separates heroes from villians something that I guess will please people that thought Jason was too much of a nice guy on RHATO and RH/A





> That's a very good point and yeah I did miss that aspect of it. Nice catch. Um....now that does make me more interested in this then I was before. Going into a grayer area with Jason a la the Future's End issue would be okay so long as it's tempered with his recent characterization. The danger here, I suppose, would be that they start leaning toward making him a villain again but if they maintain some kind of balance here I think it could be a very interesting direction and maybe an interesting team as well. Guess we'll have to see how it goes.





> I think the three being darker reflections of the Trinity was brought up. The Artemis I thought about right away was the one who replaced Diana after winning the Contest back in the 90`s, not the Young Justice sidekick. 
> 
> If Jason is being written veering towards Future End`s, I have no qualms since that was one of the stronger issues of Loedbell and surely enough where it was first hinted that both Kory and Roy would both one day split with him for different reasons. There`s also little gain in writing Jason and by extension the other two as villains. They were antagonists once but the one usually used like that, Bizzaro, is usually by proxis of someone pulling his strings. On his own Bizarro is never a villain. And since Loedbell is writting it, there`s no way they will throw out all the recent characterization out of the window. Keeping them in the gray with their own agenda again  makes them malleable and markeatable. 
> 
> Also, this way, the Outlaws are definatly a bigger force to be reckoned with in the actual power scale. Despite the personal sanction Jason have gotten from both Bruce and Superman I wonder how Luthor is going to deal with them on a formal stance.


You guys are restoring my faith in this Rebirth. I'm still a bit on edge but In Lobdell, I'll trust.

----------


## AJpyro

http://www.instocktrades.com/TP/DC/R...NESS/DEC150322

They're out! Get em while they're hot!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> You guys are restoring my faith in this Rebirth. I'm still a bit on edge but In Lobdell, I'll trust.


I don't know. I've always felt that Lobdell never dove in deep enough to his characters psyche. Maybe he can now that he's got characters that all inherently live in the grey, rather than having to soften Jason for the likes of Roy, and Kori.

When I look at this book, I just think to myself "Imagine if Rucka/Priest/Snyder/Winick was writing this?". Lobdell hardly ever goes the extra mile, character wise. That's what I really wanted to see in REBIRTH, as I'm kinda getting tired of the action movie route Jason keeps getting saddled in. 

Also where is the cerebral Jason that Winick gave us? You know, the Jason that could've killed Batman in a scene reminiscent of how they met; but didn't because it would've been _too easy_? Or the Jason that scared Alfred with how right he probably was, even as child? Or the Jason that came in and _took control_ of Gotham in away Batman refuses to, or is too scared to? Where's that guy gone? Sure, there's glimpses, but not enough to really make him stand out. 

Maybe, with an Amazon in the mix, we'll get more of Jason exploring his potential as a magic user. Imagine a Witcher-like Jason; magic plus his mind, and martial skills, would make him beyond even Batman.

----------


## AJpyro

> I don't know. I've always felt that Lobdell never dove in deep enough to his characters psyche. Maybe he can now that he's got characters that all inherently live in the grey, rather than having to soften Jason for the likes of Roy, and Kori.
> 
> When I look at this book, I just think to myself "Imagine if Rucka/Priest/Snyder/Winick was writing this?". Lobdell hardly ever goes the extra mile, character wise. That's what I really wanted to see in REBIRTH, as I'm kinda getting tired of the action movie route Jason keeps getting saddled in. 
> 
> Also where is the cerebral Jason that Winick gave us? You know, the Jason that could've killed Batman in a scene reminiscent of how they met; but didn't because it would've been _too easy_? Or the Jason that scared Alfred with how right he probably was, even as child? Or the Jason that came in and _took control_ of Gotham in away Batman refuses to, or is too scared to? Where's that guy gone? Sure, there's glimpses, but not enough to really make him stand out. 
> 
> Maybe, with an Amazon in the mix, we'll get more of Jason exploring his potential as a magic user. Imagine a Witcher-like Jason; magic plus his mind, and martial skills, would make him beyond even Batman.


Speaking off aside from Under the Hood and lost days, should I get BMaR: dark knight v white knight and Green Arrow road to Jericho?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Speaking off aside from Under the Hood and lost days, should I get BMaR: dark knight v white knight and Green Arrow road to Jericho?


Hmm, I have to check those out myself lol.

I however do think that the up coming Dark Knight Returns : The Last Crusade is a must buy.

----------


## Aahz

> Speaking off aside from Under the Hood and lost days, should I get BMaR: dark knight v white knight and Green Arrow road to Jericho?


Green Arrow road to Jericho is great but I don't like BMaR: dark knight v white knight, since it couldn't really undo the crap Morrison did with Jason, instead I would try to get Jasons appearance in the Outsiders.

----------


## Aioros22

> Speaking off aside from Under the Hood and lost days, should I get BMaR: dark knight v white knight and Green Arrow road to Jericho?


Road to Jericho is pretty good so sure. Dark Knight v White Knight can work if you have a sort of open mind about Morrison using Jason as meta commentary. I found it interesting but it rolls as a sort of experiment and never a status quo. That aside the superfeicial things that aren`t my Jason, but that`s another story.

----------


## Aioros22

Recent interview with Romita Jr and his various Batman projects, including some very little bits about "Last Crusade" and Jason:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...knight-prequel

Here is the noted part of the interview 

*On creating his take on Batman for "All Star Batman" compared to Frank Miller's for the "Dark Knight Returns" prequel "The Last Crusade":

*Like you said, "my Batman." You have to lose your ego when you work on a character like Batman, or a character like Superman, it's been done before. No matter what you do, unless your style is so distinctive, you can't go too far to any extreme. You have to keep the character where it is. These are iconic characters and there's corporations behind that iconic look.

Frank Miller's "Dark Knight [Returns]" I'm doing the prequel to it, I have to stick to -- let's see if we can figure this one out -- ten years younger than Frank's version of Dark Knight. It takes place ten years before. He's a little bit aging; he's gonna have a little bit of gray; a little bit thicker, not defined -- not as out of shape as Frank gave you the impression he was. So I get a chance to play with that in that he's a little bit thicker, and that's fun, but I had to be subtle with it. Shorter ears, and it's the old-fashioned -- excuse the expression, for lack of a better term -- the old-fashioned costume. But the costume was so important in the story that Frank and Brian [Azzarello] came up with.

So the difference is that I've drawn this version. I have started on Scott Snyder's version for the All Star. I don't know how that's gonna come out. But there is a costume designed that's ready for me [designed by Greg Capullo.] The ears will be a little bit larger than Frank's version, but not so that it will be the Kevin Nowlan long, extended ears. It will be somewhere in between. Honestly, I have to see what works out.

*On "The Last Crusade" and its "brilliant" twist:*

It's about Jason Todd. The shame of Batman almost neglecting this kid and him getting captured. Everybody knows what happens between this prequel and Frank's "Dark Knight" but there's a twist to this that is brilliant between Frank and Brian. I can't say what happens but -- everybody knows what happens to Jason Todd, but how do we show it? The story is amazing.

They gave me five typewritten pages of plot and I got 56 pages out of it. I'm up to 42. There's no wasteful words in that plot. It's exceptional beyond exceptional. You don't realize working on it that I'm sitting there with two, typewritten paragraphs -- I got 20 pages out of it, nearly. That's how good a plot is when you can not stop yourself from drawing. I thumbnail it all out and I said, "This is so great." I couldn't wait to get to it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not gonna lie, that "twist" is making me nervous.

----------


## AJpyro

Went to that site TMNBN and found RH/A preview for 11 and let me just say: 

Roy:

----------


## Dzetoun

From _Bleeding Cool_, more on the post-_Rebirth_ _RHATO_ courtesy of the DC Previews catalog:




> Now the Red Hood plans to use his status as a villain to take down Gotham’s underworld from the inside. Joined by a fallen Amazon named Artemis, and a half-baked Superman clone named Bizarro, this dark trinity will soon discover that the line between hero and villain is difficult to discern…


Sounds awful, but I guess we will see.

----------


## vasir12

I have no high expectations for this, but the premise sounds cool enough.

----------


## sifighter

I'm sorry but hasn't it been years since Jason could be classified as anything close to a villain. I mean in the recent series he started a public business where he could be hired as a hero, and he's been pretty prominent as a batfamily member so whoever in the criminal underground think he's a villain isn't that bright.

Not saying it isn't an interesting premise, just one that really can't work for Jason anymore.

----------


## vasir12

Maybe he gets from rep in the rebirth issue.

----------


## Badou

> From _Bleeding Cool_, more on the post-_Rebirth_ _RHATO_ courtesy of the DC Previews catalog:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds awful, but I guess we will see.


An Amazon and a Superman clone seem a bit overkill for Gotham villains. You figure they will have to leave pretty soon as I can't see the normal batman villains posing much of a threat to them for long. I really don't see how the current Jason is in any way a villain too, so I guess there is going to be come tweaks to continuity or something.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That premise sound very interesting and oddly enough, is what MAAAAAAANY people was claiming they wanted for Jason, so they got their wish.

----------


## JasonTodd428

The premise sounds interesting enough but I have a difficult time believing that Jason would need anyone's help to take down the Gotham underworld from the inside. That seems like an undercover operation to me and Bizzaro would stick out like a sore thumb there. Also are we supposed to expect that the Gotham underworld is totally unaware of what Jay's been up to in the last several years? That's a bit if a stretch as far as believability goes. 

@DarkT: Yeah, it sounds like the people that wanted a more street level, "villainous" take one Jason are getting their wish. It remains to be seen whether I have any interest  in it though. That's highly dependant on how it's handled but I can say I got bored with street level Jason in the Pre-Flashpoint days so if it becomes anything like that I'm gone.

----------


## Aioros22

So a shade closer to UTRH then? I`m more ambivalent about it now, so we`ll see how it`s handled. I have to believe Loedebll won`t throw off his own development of the main character. There has to be a catch 22 there regarding him getting interested in Gotham`s Underworld again.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So a shade closer to UTRH then? I`m more ambivalent about it now, so we`ll see how it`s handled. I have to believe Loedebll won`t throw off his own development of the main character. There has to be a catch 22 there regarding him getting interested in Gotham`s Underworld again.


Possibly. It certainly sound like a more "serious" take on the character at any rate, which could be good or bad depending on how it's handled. I would probably be a deal happier if this was a Red Hood solo book where he works on side cases instead of with a team. I also hope that his being in Gotham here isn't going to end up being the new norm for him. That setting hasn't always been the best one for him and I enjoyed the times when he wasn't "in town" so to speak. 

I'm not entirely sure but Jason could simply be "playing" the villain here in order to get in so he can take down the Underworld from the inside. However, there is the issue of whether or not the criminal underworld is going to believe he's had a seeming change of heart after all his recent activities, particularly those connected to the Bat. That's going to be the tricky part here making it believable without telegraphing any plot points along the way.  I'm still scratching my head over how Bizzaro is going to fit into all this beyond maybe being Jason's muscle. He really doesn't seem to fit here in the same way I initial thought Starfire didn't really fit on the previous team.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It could be like it was on URTH with Amazo, some jerk crime lord got his hands on some supervillian armory before Jason's intervention.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It could be like it was on URTH with Amazo, some jerk crime lord got his hands on some supervillian armory before Jason's intervention.


Maybe. I'm curious enough to see what this is all about I'm just a little leery of it is all.

----------


## Aioros22

Whatever it is, it`s got to be something, I don`t want things to regress back to years past.

----------


## Celgress

Seems interesting enough for me to give it a try. I love me some Red Hood.  :Cool:

----------


## kaimaciel

Villain?! What the hell, DC? Please tell me 5 years of character development aren't going down the drain. I don't want Jason to regress back into a psycho with daddy issues going after Batman. What the hell? He changed and grew so much... this is horrible.

----------


## Aioros22

> Villain?! What the hell, DC? Please tell me 5 years of character development aren't going down the drain. I don't want Jason to regress back into a psycho with daddy issues going after Batman. What the hell? He changed and grew so much... this is horrible.


I think it was clear that he`s supposed to simply use what Underworld rep he`s got to dive in and destroy whatever it is from the inside. That`s not my main concern since Loedell did set that in Future`s End Jason will be seen as rogue without Roy and kory in that near future. Not that he was really seen any other way by the police, but you get the meaning. 

My concern is only in setting his agenda solely in Gotham again. That`s the regression I`m talking about. I have no qualms with Jason targetting something especific and handling whatever comes to him, I just won`t enjoy it if his whole world map is just Gotham since I prefer him bigger than that. Hopefully the power threat his new band of merry men possess will mean they`re out of the city soon or at the very least won`t stay there all the time.

----------


## Aioros22

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...s-and-bizarro/

Since he`s still using the brand logo and the same design, I believe the risky villain pose will be undercover while struggling to keep the trust he`s gained from certain avenues, like Batman and Superman, still looking valid. As long his physicology and characterization keep in the same mold, I will have interest to see what roads he will travel. 

More interesting even, to know whatever makes him go that route with these two. It has to be something big because I don`t see him targetting gangsters with this power behind him. He could wipe those on his own. So what is it? Are they enforcers just in case the League or Titans decide to target him in full force while he`s pulling his plan?

----------


## Dzetoun

> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/04/...s-and-bizarro/
> 
> Since he`s still using the brand logo and the same design, I believe the risky villain pose will be undercover while struggling to keep the trust he`s gained from certain avenues, like Batman and Superman, still looking valid. As long his physicology and characterization keep in the same mold, I will have interest to see what roads he will travel.


I think that's the most likely from what we know.  It doesn't really fit well with a lot of what's been going on, but I guess we can give it a pass considering they are doing a relaunch.  After all, it isn't as if the current Gotham continuity is free from problems like this.  Red Robin is supposedly a wanted criminal in his own right, going by _Teen Titans_, but there isn't a hint of it in the Bat Family books.

By the way, I got to see a copy of the print version of _DC Previews_ this evening.  It turns out that _Nightwing_ and _RHATO_ are discussed side-by-side in the form of parallel tongue-in-cheek timelines comparing Dick and Jason's careers.  It is very amusing as they play up, in a light way, the contrast between the Golden Boy and the Black Sheep, including Dick's sometimes regrettable fashion choices and Jason's bad luck with 900 numbers.  The _Nightwing_ timeline sounds like Seeley through-and-through, but I will leave it to others to judge if they hear Lobdell in Jason's.  The entry in Jason's timeline before the stuff about the dark trinity talks about his problems with Bruce and says "They worked it out, but it was pretty touch and go for a while," which doesn't sound like DC is backpedaling on character development.

----------


## AJpyro

> I think that's the most likely from what we know.  It doesn't really fit well with a lot of what's been going on, but I guess we can give it a pass considering they are doing a relaunch.  After all, it isn't as if the current Gotham continuity is free from problems like this.  Red Robin is supposedly a wanted criminal in his own right, going by _Teen Titans_, but there isn't a hint of it in the Bat Family books.
> 
> By the way, I got to see a copy of the print version of _DC Previews_ this evening.  It turns out that _Nightwing_ and _RHATO_ are discussed side-by-side in the form of parallel tongue-in-cheek timelines comparing Dick and Jason's careers.  It is very amusing as they play up, in a light way, the contrast between the Golden Boy and the Black Sheep, including Dick's sometimes regrettable fashion choices and Jason's bad luck with 900 numbers.  The _Nightwing_ timeline sounds like Seeley through-and-through, but I will leave it to others to judge if they hear Lobdell in Jason's. * The entry in Jason's timeline before the stuff about the dark trinity talks about his problems with Bruce and says "They worked it out, but it was pretty touch and go for a while," which doesn't sound like DC is backpedaling on character development.*


So RHatO 1 to 18 is still more or less canon? Neat.

----------


## Aahz

> By the way, I got to see a copy of the print version of _DC Previews_ this evening.  It turns out that _Nightwing_ and _RHATO_ are discussed side-by-side in the form of parallel tongue-in-cheek timelines comparing Dick and Jason's careers.


Which publication is that? The DC Preview Catalog? I cant find something like that in the online version.

----------


## Kurtzberg

> Which publication is that? The DC Preview Catalog? I cant find something like that in the online version.


The print edition has exclusive Rebirth material versus the digital, such as more art and various bits and bobs of text.

----------


## Aahz

> The print edition has exclusive Rebirth material versus the digital, such as more art and various bits and bobs of text.


 :Mad: 

Does this timeline contain any hard facts like ages or years?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think that's the most likely from what we know.  It doesn't really fit well with a lot of what's been going on, but I guess we can give it a pass considering they are doing a relaunch.  After all, it isn't as if the current Gotham continuity is free from problems like this.  Red Robin is supposedly a wanted criminal in his own right, going by _Teen Titans_, but there isn't a hint of it in the Bat Family books.
> 
> By the way, I got to see a copy of the print version of _DC Previews_ this evening.  It turns out that _Nightwing_ and _RHATO_ are discussed side-by-side in the form of parallel tongue-in-cheek timelines comparing Dick and Jason's careers.  It is very amusing as they play up, in a light way, the contrast between the Golden Boy and the Black Sheep, including Dick's sometimes regrettable fashion choices and Jason's bad luck with 900 numbers.  The _Nightwing_ timeline sounds like Seeley through-and-through, but I will leave it to others to judge if they hear Lobdell in Jason's.  The entry in Jason's timeline before the stuff about the dark trinity *talks about his problems with Bruce and says "They worked it out, but it was pretty touch and go for a while," which doesn't sound like DC is backpedaling on character development.*


Indeed that does seem to be the case according to this small interview with the man himself about the new RHATO.

http://thecomicsourceblog.com/comic-...ell-interview/

Interestingly, this time they won't be friends from the start but something that will be develop over time.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Does this timeline contain any hard facts like ages or years?


Nope.  It's actually quite "meta," talking as it does about fashion (and Dick's fabled behind) and how Jason had a bad run-in with a 900 number before being helped out by "an old family friend," i.e. Talia.  If there's a greater message about previous continuity, it's "it's all there, even if we don't talk about it, but we don't worry too much about trying to nail things down and neither should you."

----------


## Aioros22

> I think that's the most likely from what we know.  It doesn't really fit well with a lot of what's been going on, but I guess we can give it a pass considering they are doing a relaunch.  After all, it isn't as if the current Gotham continuity is free from problems like this.  Red Robin is supposedly a wanted criminal in his own right, going by _Teen Titans_, but there isn't a hint of it in the Bat Family books.
> 
> By the way, I got to see a copy of the print version of _DC Previews_ this evening.  It turns out that _Nightwing_ and _RHATO_ are discussed side-by-side in the form of parallel tongue-in-cheek timelines comparing Dick and Jason's careers.  It is very amusing as they play up, in a light way, the contrast between the Golden Boy and the Black Sheep, including Dick's sometimes regrettable fashion choices and Jason's bad luck with 900 numbers.  The _Nightwing_ timeline sounds like Seeley through-and-through, but I will leave it to others to judge if they hear Lobdell in Jason's.  The entry in Jason's timeline before the stuff about the dark trinity talks about his problems with Bruce and says "They worked it out, but it was pretty touch and go for a while," which doesn't sound like DC is backpedaling on character development.


That does stir my interest further. It looks like Bat editorial is still looking for him. Thanks for the cool info!




> Nope.  It's actually quite "meta," talking as it does about fashion (and Dick's fabled behind) and how Jason had a bad run-in with a 900 number before being helped out by "an old family friend," i.e. Talia.  If there's a greater message about previous continuity, it's "it's all there, even if we don't talk about it, but we don't worry too much about trying to nail things down and neither should you."


Ah, I like that balance in taking continuity or not. Worry a bit but not too much. 

I also love meta comments like that, they make for good fun.

----------


## Aioros22

> Indeed that does seem to be the case according to this small interview with the man himself about the new RHATO.
> 
> http://thecomicsourceblog.com/comic-...ell-interview/
> 
> Interestingly, this time they won't be friends from the start but something that will be develop over time.


Here`s what I found most interesting. Jason himself not really being sure how he was brought back. We know Talia picked him up afterwards, but perhaps keeping what exact process brought him back stays for the best. It adds a small layer of mistery and occult and can give us nice character work with Jason not being sure if he even has a soul or not. 

Again Loedbell is a great idea man, even if I believe there are better writers to go that deep, but I can`t say I hate his execution either. I`m trilled by character details like this.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

The whole Joker's Daughter thing was kinda....meh.

Yeah, Jason killed a....she's a teenager, right? If that's the case, then Jason killed a minor, but that doesn't make the subplot interesting.

With the Iron Rule...it seems rushed, I don't feel anything for either party in that story.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Here`s what I found most interesting. Jason himself not really being sure how he was brought back. We know Talia picked him up afterwards, but perhaps keeping what exact process brought him back stays for the best. It adds a small layer of mistery and occult and can give us nice character work with Jason not being sure if he even has a soul or not. 
> 
> Again Loedbell is a great idea man, even if I believe there are better writers to go that deep, but I can`t say I hate his execution either. I`m trilled by character details like this.


I want more Talia and Jason interaction. It's just weird that as someone who's had such an impact on his life, we've yet to see current Jason interact with her.

Also, yeah, he's got interesting ideas, but he writes them in way that make them seem..."meh" compared to other books. The writing isn't very creative, or engaging (besides most of his Jason inner monologues). Honestly, while I'd still want another writer, I wouldn't be so against him coming back if he was doing a RH solo.

----------


## Aioros22

It would probably work best to have a co-writer like in Grayson. Loedebll for ideas and someone else for actual dialogue.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It would probably work best to have a co-writer like in Grayson. Loedebll for ideas and someone else for actual dialogue.


Best case scenario, if Lobdell is to stay.

----------


## KrustyKid

I finally finished my Red Hood tribute video. Here it is.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS: REBIRTH #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
> Variant cover by BENGAL
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> When a shocking encounter with Batman solidifies the Red Hood’s status as a villain, Jason Todd goes *deep undercover* to take down Gotham City’s criminal underworld from the inside. Along the way, Jason meets two unlikely allies: a disgraced Amazon warrior named Artemis and a half-baked Superman clone called Bizarro—and the DCU’s “Dark Trinity” is born!
> On sale JULY 27 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+




So I guess Jason is working for Bruce after all

----------


## KrustyKid

> So I guess Jason is working for Bruce after all


I was under the impression he was going undercover for himself after reading that (Given the villain reference). But you might be right. Time will tell.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Really, liking those covers....a shame that Camuncoli isn't actually drawing the book, with Soy.

However, why is this team going against the GOTHAM criminal underworld, and working with Batman...that makes no sense. Not only is this group overkill, they can/should kill every major villain, and it's not like Batman could stop them on his own if he wanted to.

Ya'll already know I wanted a solo, or him teaming with Lex and Grail, but this group really makes me think that Jason could've made an interesting addition to the Suicide Squad.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

double post

----------


## KrustyKid

> Really, liking those covers....a shame that Camuncoli isn't actually drawing the book, with Soy.
> 
> However, why is this team going against the GOTHAM criminal underworld, and working with Batman...that makes no sense. Not only is this group overkill, they can/should kill every major villain, and it's not like Batman could stop them on his own if he wanted to.
> 
> Ya'll already know I wanted a solo, or him teaming with Lex and Grail, but this group really makes me think that Jason could've made an interesting addition to the Suicide Squad.


Jason with the Suicide Squad? Shoot, I'd be down.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Jason with the Suicide Squad? Shoot, I'd be down.


I would too. That's another franchise getting a lot of attention.

If the DCEU rumors are right, and we do get a UtRH movie adaptation, I want him to get picked up by the Waller for her Squad following his defeat.

----------


## KrustyKid

That really sounds like a good idea. That would give him a nice little direction to work in the movie verse

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That really sounds like a good idea. That would give him a nice little direction to work in the movie verse


Yup, exactly, and that could lead to other possibilities.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Jason with the Suicide Squad? Shoot, I'd be down.


I don't see Jason being all that willing to work with Waller not even back in the PreFP days. That direction doesn' t even make any sense. If it was a choice between what we're getting at Rebirth, him in Suicide Squad or him going solo I pick a solo or whatever this new direction is taking him before his being in the Squad. Heck I'd rather read a book that returns to being a murderous vigilante, providing they take that idea in an interesting direction before I'd pick up a Suicide Squad book with him in it and I think everyone here pretty much knows by now what I thought of that angle.

----------


## AJpyro

> Really, liking those covers....a shame that Camuncoli isn't actually drawing the book, with Soy.
> 
> However, why is this team going against the GOTHAM criminal underworld, and working with Batman...that makes no sense. Not only is this group overkill, they can/should kill every major villain, and it's not like Batman could stop them on his own if he wanted to.
> 
> Ya'll already know I wanted a solo, or him teaming with Lex and Grail, but this group really makes me think that Jason could've made an interesting addition to the Suicide Squad.


Gotta agree on the Gotham part. With this much firepower, this team should be international.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

I really like the idea of Jason being undercover for Batman rather than him going back to be a villain
I did like him as a villain with under the hood and Battle for the Cowl happen but I really think we are way past that after the Batman & Robin Eternal
It just doesnt feel right. or at least like an organic path for the character
I hope for the best.

----------


## Dzetoun

> I really like the idea of Jason being undercover for Batman rather than him going back to be a villain
> I did like him as a villain with under the hood and Battle for the Cowl happen but I really think we are way past that after the Batman & Robin Eternal
> It just doesnt feel right. or at least like an organic path for the character
> I hope for the best.


Jason being undercover for Bruce after a very public falling out is an interesting direction for the character.  In a way, it amounts to taking the format of _Grayson_ and repurposing it for Jason's particular situation.  And it will be a little amusing to have two former Robins doing infiltration at the same time (and a third still wanted by the police).  It would be interesting, albeit unlikely, if Jason and Dick end up closing in on the same people from two different directions.

----------


## Aioros22

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/04/19/r...rman-revealed/

While we still haven`t been confirmed if it`s Jason or not (tho it seems most likely he is) here`s a little description of the staff that is on display together with the costume. 

Holy moses Batman. Training a kid to use an axe? It`s like Snyder took Miller`s Batman on roids.  but regardless, it does shed more light in the Jason camp as simbology goes. Reminded me of that scene in *The Cult* where Jason is trained to use a rifle.

----------


## Godfather

I still think after this issue, Jason should be dead and stay dead. Hence the reason Batman keeps his suit in a glass case. If I'm correct. I admit I may need correction.

----------


## Aioros22

You need correction. Bruce is really indeed a display whore. 

Totes seriously.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don't see Jason being all that willing to work with Waller not even back in the PreFP days. That direction doesn' t even make any sense. If it was a choice between what we're getting at Rebirth, him in Suicide Squad or him going solo I pick a solo or whatever this new direction is taking him before his being in the Squad. Heck I'd rather read a book that returns to being a murderous vigilante, providing they take that idea in an interesting direction before I'd pick up a Suicide Squad book with him in it and I think everyone here pretty much knows by now what I thought of that angle.


It's not about him willingly doing it, but him being forced...like everyone else is. He is a criminal, so him being in the Squad for a 1-3 story arcs, after being captured by said Squad, would make complete sense.

Also, yeah, I'd choose a solo in a heartbeat, but since DC refuses to give us that I'm just bring up something he's yet to do.

----------


## Godlike13

Jason in the Suicide Squad would be a living hell for him. Being considered as the same as those guys and being forced to have to work with the kind of people he wants to kill. Ya, i was always a big fan of that idea.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> *Jason being undercover for Bruce after a very public falling out is an interesting direction for the character.*  In a way, it amounts to taking the format of _Grayson_ and repurposing it for Jason's particular situation.  And it will be a little amusing to have two former Robins doing infiltration at the same time (and a third still wanted by the police).  It would be interesting, albeit unlikely, if Jason and Dick end up closing in on the same people from two different directions.


I'm getting really tired of that. Jason is the balck sheep of the family, who has his own business going on, and does things his own way, but he almost always comes back to do what the other members of the Bat Family want him to do. Especially why does he keep coming to Bruce's every beck and call? They do not have good relationship at all, yet he always comes when he calls. It's annoying.

How about having Jason simply ignore a call every once in awhile? I really hope this "Dark Trinity" thing makes it that Jason starts to distance himself a bit. Don't get me wrong, as I like that he's part of the Family, but when he crosses over he's always pacified, and hardly does his own thing, or outright challenges the others. 

It's not like him killing criminals is a surprise to them, so I'd like to see him kill someone, like Mother, or Azrael, in front of them. Are they really going to stop their mission to "bring him to Justice"? I doubt it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Jason in the Suicide Squad would be a living hell for him. Being considered as the same as those guys and being forced to have to work with the kind of people he wants to kill. Ya, i was always a big fan of that idea.


Exactly, it'd be very entertaining watching plan on how to kill everyone, and complete the mission (well, probably not El Diablo).

Also, while it'd be a living hell, I think that the pragmatic side of Jason would be able to understand Waller's perspective on the need of a these Task Force teams. He'd just not appreciate being on it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It's not about him willingly doing it, but him being forced...like everyone else is. He is a criminal, so him being in the Squad for a 1-3 story arcs, after being captured by said Squad, would make complete sense.
> 
> Also, yeah, I'd choose a solo in a heartbeat, but since DC refuses to give us that I'm just bring up something he's yet to do.


Sure they could try to "force" him to do so but exactly what kind of leverage would they be able to bring to bare to force him to work with them? Not even death is something that he fears these days so honestly this direction really seems as if it has no legs and would be little better than a place to stick the character while he stagnates some more. No thanks. I think he'd much rather cap the lot of them and then die himself rather than to be "forced" into working with the very scum he despises. At least that would be a more fitting scenario then this one to me. Then again I have very little interest in the Suicide Squad anyway so whether he was a part of it or not I'd likely not be reading it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Sure they could try to "force" him to do so but exactly what kind of leverage would they be able to bring to bare to force him to work with them? Not even death is something that he fears these days so honestly this direction really seems as if it has no legs and would be little better than a place to stick the character while he stagnates some more. No thanks. I think he'd much rather cap the lot of them and then die himself rather than to be "forced" into working with the very scum he despises. At least that would be a more fitting scenario then this one to me. Then again I have very little interest in the Suicide Squad anyway so whether he was a part of it or not I'd likely not be reading it.


It's temporary. The Squad's roster of characters cycle, so him being on the team for awhile is hardly the end of the world.

Also, no, he'd rather not die, and even if he did try to kill his teammates he'd complete the mission because the Squad get sent to rid the world of horrible people. Again, he's a criminal, and getting captured by Waller makes sense. 

You may not read it, but it's a concept a lot of people would find interesting. I especially see this having a good chance in the DCEU, if SS and a potential UtRH movie are very popular.

Still, the current ideal Jason title is a solo...with Bunn at the helm.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It's temporary. The Squad's roster of characters cycle, so him being on the team for awhile is hardly the end of the world.
> 
> Also, no, he'd rather not die, and even if he did try to kill his teammates he'd complete the mission because the Squad get sent to rid the world of horrible people. Again, he's a criminal, and getting captured by Waller makes sense. 
> 
> You may not read it, but it's a concept a lot of people would find interesting. I especially see this having a good chance in the DCEU, if SS and a potential UtRH movie are very popular.
> 
> Still, the current ideal Jason title is a solo...with Bunn at the helm.


I would certainly hope it would be temporary. I doubt very seriously that Jason wouldn't figure a way out of the situation were he to be captured by Waller and her crew.  He was trained by the Bat and the LoA among others so I could definitely see him spending time not only plotting how to kill the others but how to escape entirely. Still I'd rather see Jason with regular appearances in an ongoing then having him only appear as a part of some temporary or guest star situation is what I'm getting at. Guesting in a book might get him some cred universally speaking but the real meat of his story should be taken up in an ongoing. He spent far to much time "guesting" in Batman titles Pre-FP and that's pretty much soured me on such things these days because those guest appearances never amounted to anything so far as character development was concerned.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I would certainly hope it would be temporary. I doubt very seriously that Jason wouldn't figure a way out of the situation were he to be captured by Waller and her crew.  He was trained by the Bat and the LoA among others so I could definitely see him spending time not only plotting how to kill the others but how to escape entirely. Still I'd rather see Jason with regular appearances in an ongoing then having him only appear as a part of some temporary or guest star situation is what I'm getting at. Guesting in a book might get him some cred universally speaking but the real meat of his story should be taken up in an ongoing. He spent far to much time "guesting" in Batman titles Pre-FP and that's pretty much soured me on such things these days because those guest appearances never amounted to anything so far as character development was concerned.


Well of course, it could only end with Jason finding a way out, after the first to third mission.

Him starring in this book would be a breath of fresh air compared to all the other whatever guest appearances he's had. We'd get to see Jason in his element, and "unchained" sort of speak; unlike every other guest appearance that has him being docile.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well of course, it could only end with Jason finding a way out, after the first to third mission.
> 
> Him starring in this book would be a breath of fresh air compared to all the other whatever guest appearances he's had. We'd get to see Jason in his element, and "unchained" sort of speak; unlike every other guest appearance that has him being docile.


To some fans maybe but not to me or at least not unless they could sell such a direction to me in a convincing manner. I got over him being an unrestrained and unrepentant killer back in the Pre-FP days after they did absolutely nothing of interest with that particular direction and sort of feel like that ship has sailed. If they were going to go that route then it was something that needed to be done not to long after UtRH came out in my opinion or at the very least after the animated movie and not years after it for it to to even make any reasonable sense as a direction. They missed that opprotunity in all honesty not once but twice. I do have to wonder if the direction he's had since the reboot isn't in part the result of DC wanting to make up for the 1-900 stunt they pulled with the character that lead to his death. I've actually never really forgiven them for that one.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason in the SS is a terrible idea because characterization-wise there's nothing he has to offer to the current dynamic of the title, basing his characterization on how much he wants to kill his teammates/his plans to escape would get old really fast, he would stand out like a sore thumb.

Hell, just to get a explanation for his drafting would be grasping at the straws.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t find it that awkward, altho that would depend on how the Suicide Squad is presented. But for one stororyarc I don`t think it`s bad. It`s not above Jason`s characterization at all to see the good meeting the means, if the goal is ultimely something he sees of worth - and Waller would make sure it would be - considering she knows whom she drafts for missions. Let`s not Forget that once upon a time Roy was also part of a drug cartel mission in the classic Ostrander run. 

It`s no different than his appearances in the Superman related titles. I myself enjoy his character working in more than one angle as he sees fit. That sort of maleability is something else that sets him apart Grayson and Tim.

And appearantly Bruce as well.

----------


## Aioros22

http://data1.whicdn.com/images/56564885/large.gif

Question of the day folks. Let`s say DCU indeed features Jason showing up. Who would you like to play the part?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I don`t find it that awkward, altho that would depend on how the Suicide Squad is presented. But for one stororyarc I don`t think it`s bad. It`s not above Jason`s characterization at all to see the good meeting the means, if the goal is ultimely something he sees of worth - and Waller would make sure it would be - considering she knows whom she drafts for missions. Let`s not Forget that once upon a time Roy was also part of a drug cartel mission in the classic Ostrander run. 
> 
> It`s no different than his appearances in the Superman related titles. I myself enjoy his character working in more than one angle as he sees fit. That sort of maleability is something else that sets him apart Grayson and Tim.
> 
> And appearantly Bruce as well.


Well said.

----------


## AJpyro

Just finished the red hood returns arc from batman and robin vol 4. Damien and dick under performed but it was an awesome showcase for jason. Kinda made me sad FP happened.

----------


## Aahz

> Just finished the red hood returns arc from batman and robin vol 4. Damien and dick under performed but it was an awesome showcase for jason. Kinda made me sad FP happened.


There were so many crappy portraits of Jason pre flashpoint, I quite glad that the new 52 erased most of what happened after UtRH (and that the red hair, the Morrison Costume and Scarlett are not canon anymore).

----------


## Aioros22

It was an interesting experiment but Morrison didn`t wrote it more than that. Scarlett was a nice touch for someone who was even a bigger lone wolf than Bruce, he actually did care for her and did the right thing in the end. I think it kind of opened the door to have Jason interact with others while dong his own thing.

The costume would never end up canon, it was just a homage to the "red hood" that Morrison had come up in his Animal Man run. 

His haircolor has sparkled (ha!) debates before. I understand that at the time when you had only two Robins in continuity it could have made sense dying his hair black so the average citizen of Gotham would believe it was still the same mask (altho some like Gordon could maybe outright tell the difference between a preteen and Dick growing into a young adult) but the average guy and crook don`t know them up close, so it`s perfectly viable. These days tho, you`ve broken that mold. "Robin" has been females and different shades and cultures. That sticking to just one sole design isn`t as vital any longer, especially now that being Robin is seen as youth movement in the city. So, in that regard, whereas he would be a redhead or not, as long as consistant, isn`t importante any longer. 

We all know the real reason it`s even brought up but it makes little favours to both Jason and Bruce in this modern era. So stick to a simple getup and run with it.

----------


## Aahz

> It was an interesting experiment but Morrison didn`t wrote it more than that. Scarlett was a nice touch for someone who was even a bigger lone wolf than Bruce, he actually did care for her and did the right thing in the end. I think it kind of opened the door to have Jason interact with others while dong his own thing.


The thing was that Jason was before against Kid sidekicks, so him taking one was kind of strange.




> So, in that regard, whereas he would be a redhead or not, as long as consistant, isn`t importante any longer.


The black looks better imo, and making him a red head wasn't consistant since he had black hair post crisis and the pre crisis version was in Jason case really a completely different character, who had apart from the name not much in common with the post crisis version.
Mixing them is like mixing Kathy Kane with Kate Kane.

----------


## REAL

I strongly recommend you guys to read the latest issue of deathstroke. Red Hood was in it and he looked really awesome.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I strongly recommend you guys to read the latest issue of deathstroke. Red Hood was in it and he looked really awesome.


Until Batman came, his exit was laughable.

----------


## REAL

Did you guys see this? Ironically, today is Jason's death anniversary. 

Thinking about it, it would have been really appropriate if the last crusade come out today.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I strongly recommend you guys to read the latest issue of deathstroke. Red Hood was in it and he looked really awesome.


Nope

Art was really good but that is one of the worst characterizations I've seen of Jason. Hell, we've seen numerous times that Jason can't be manipulated that easy.

----------


## REAL

> Nope
> 
> Art was really good but that is one of the worst characterizations I've seen of Jason. Hell, we've seen numerous times that Jason can't be manipulated that easy.


I would be honestly suprised if you did like it, but I do agree that Jason shouldn't have been manipulated easily and they could have planned his exit better than this. I still like it tho. 

Anyway, more news about RHATO rebirth and some suprise here.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Has anyone read ARKHAM KNIGHT Genesis? Is it good?

----------


## REAL

> Has anyone read ARKHAM KNIGHT Genesis? Is it good?


I did and it's really good.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> I did and it's really good.


I have the first 2 KNIGHT HCs and the story is decent but the art just looks like its a Capullo copy without his level of talent. Is Genesis the same? Better?

----------


## Aioros22

> The thing was that Jason was before against Kid sidekicks, so him taking one was kind of strange.


The "Jason before" was the UTRH Jay sure, but I think in the meantime you can make the claim that some writers tried to make him more social, like having aventures with Donna and Kyle. Despite that it wouldn`t be out of character whatsoever for Jason to warm up particularly to Scarlett. Some people have a way to be more important in one`s life. 




> The black looks better imo, and making him a red head wasn't consistant since he had black hair post crisis and the pre crisis version was in Jason case really a completely different character, who had apart from the name not much in common with the post crisis version.
> Mixing them is like mixing Kathy Kane with Kate Kane.


I didn`t said it was consistant. I said that whatever you pick, make it so. Him being a redhead or not doesn`t bother me, since both color pallete can have it`s advantages and disadvantages in storytelling.




> I strongly recommend you guys to read the latest issue of deathstroke. Red Hood was in it and he looked really awesome.


Haven`t yet. But spoil ahead, what parts are awesome?

----------


## REAL

> Haven`t yet. But spoil ahead, what parts are awesome?


Jason and slade teaming up was awesome and the art alone makes the issue worth buying. 




> I have the first 2 KNIGHT HCs and the story is decent but the art just looks like its a Capullo copy without his level of talent. Is Genesis the same? Better?


It's done by different artists and one of them is Dexter Soy. 

Arkham knight genesis is 6 issues story that focus on Jason's origin (which is a new) and what happened to him before the events of the game. It's really worth reading.

----------


## AJpyro

Just finished the original UtRH arc from Batman comics. I liked it.

It definitely went on for too long and had some miscellaneous characters. But I did like Bruce going across the DCu to check in on the other resurrection cases before confronting the truth. 

However the movie will always be the superior version. Kept within the Batfam circle and those VAs and music and everything. It was just rebuilding an already good story.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I much prefer the movie version of the UtRH story to the comic version myself. I think the movie cleaned up a lot of what I felt were extraneous bits to the story.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Haven`t yet. But spoil ahead, what parts are awesome?


Jason wakes up, shoots at the people Slade is fighting against and then gets whammied into thinking Batman is calling him and walking into the sunset as a dumbass.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Jason wakes up, shoots at the people Slade is fighting against and then gets whammied into thinking Batman is calling him and walking into the sunset as a dumbass.


Yeah... it was pretty awesome up to that point. When Jason was duped, my jaw dropped. He didn't even come back at the end!

----------


## JasonTodd428

Honestly I didn't bother with Jay's appearance in Deathstroke. I don't read the book and not even Jason being in it gets me interested enough to buy it.

----------


## Aahz

The Deathstroke thing was a little bit like his appearance in the last cross overs, his best scene is fighting against a protagonist, but against the villains he doesn't do much and he doesn't really participate in the final showdown :Mad:

----------


## adrikito

I appreciate the character(is a anti hero) in a similar way to Deathstroke.. 

I want to see Jason talk to BIZARRO.. 

The woman who replaces Starfire also looks good.. She looks terrifying .. But it does not see the same fear Daughter Joker.

----------


## sghood

Loving soys art. I'm hoping he stays on as long as possible. Kirkham draws a great red hood too but I'll keep dreaming lol. I like that they're bringing the original origin back. He could still have had some dealings with the red hood gang but not that bs with talia and the secret punch. Hope the all caste stuff stays and it gets referenced from time to time.

----------


## SicariiDC

Didn't want to go thru 100 pages to see if it's been posted, but for people looking for old Jason Robin stuff collected, there is that "second chances" trade...it's all about that

----------


## Aahz

> Didn't want to go thru 100 pages to see if it's been posted, but for people looking for old Jason Robin stuff collected, there is that "second chances" trade...it's all about that


Also currently available as trades are "A Death in the Family" and "The Cult".
Everything between "second chances" and "A Death in the Family" is not available at the moment.

----------


## SicariiDC

> Also currently available as trades are "A Death in the Family" and "The Cult".
> Everything between "second chances" and "A Death in the Family" is not available at the moment.


Yeah got those personally...I really like the cult btw, wild stuff...anyway, anyone know how many issues Jason was in before his death?

----------


## Aioros22

You also have Jason in the "Legends" TPB.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah got those personally...I really like the cult btw, wild stuff...anyway, anyone know how many issues Jason was in before his death?


Here is a list of his apperances.

But the only important story line from Jasons Time as Robin that is missing is imo the Diplomats son and maybe Batman Annual #12 and #13 (even if that stories are not that great). His role Ten Nights of the Beast and the Dumpster Slasher arc were quite minor, and most appearances out of the Batman series feel somehow out of character.

When you are interested in stories that were written later, Nightwing Year One, Gotham Knights #43, Legends of the Dark Knight #100 and Retroactive Batman from the 80s are also featuring Jason as Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

I have a hard time believing his appearances in Titans (two missions as active member) and Legends would be considered out of character ny anyone but stranger things have happened. He wasn`t pushed in the 100% antagonizing role up until him facing Two-Face for the murder of his father.

----------


## Aahz

> I have a hard time believing his appearances in Titans (two missions as active member) and Legends would be considered out of character ny anyone but stranger things have happened. He wasn`t pushed in the 100% antagonizing role up until him facing Two-Face for the murder of his father.


The thing is that they were iirc written before they changed his origin, so the writers probably based him on the pre crisis Jason.

And he is is anyway very generic in those books.

----------


## Aioros22

> The thing is that they were iirc written before they changed his origin, so the writers probably based him on the pre crisis Jason.


They were both published and written as happening after Crisis of Infinite Earths. 




> And he is is anyway very generic in those books.


Is he? He takes a stage role in either example showcasing several characteristics of his, mostly his guts and maturity. Jason wasn`t just the rage or urban flavor. He could be compassionate, mature, smart and fast thinking and those writers weren`t just set in making the grit n` gritty that Starlin only pushed to the limit later on. Until that point while Jason was certainly different than Dick in world views and said stories made the point of pointing that out, he wasn`t pushed on the edge yet and true enough, not all differences were bad as Dick Grayson himself or Batman would make the claim.  

I think that can be easily confused with pre crisis sensability if you put it that way, but there was a balance since the start between his antagonizing background and his willingness to be Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> They were both published and written as happening after Crisis of Infinite Earths.


But before Batman #408. 
And you must also keep in mind that the Batman Comics were still set in Earth One after Crisis of Infinite Earth for roughly half a year. The first official New Earth Comics with Batman are Detective Comics #567 and Batman #401 and Jasons first appearence in New Teen Titans pre-date even these by several month. And the first New Earth Batman Comics are also all very generic, they didn't really start to reboot him and flesh out the new continuity untill Batman Year one imo.
I don't know when they decided to change Jason Origin, and informed the other writers about, but afaik it was Max Collins idea and his first comics Batman Comic was Batman #401.




> Is he? He takes a stage role in either example showcasing several characteristics of his, mostly his guts and maturity. Jason wasn`t just the rage or urban flavor. He could be compassionate, mature, smart and fast thinking


That are all characteristics Dick and pre crisis Jason also had.
In this comics nothing he does really identifies him as pre crisis Jason.

----------


## Aahz

Her just a short time frame for the issues shortly after crisis

*March 1986*
Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 _(last Issue of CoIE)_

*April 1986*
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #19

*May 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #20

*June 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #21

*October 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #24
Detective Comics #567 _(First New Earth Batman Issue)_

*November 1986* 
Legends #1
Batman #401 _(First Issue by Max Collins, Jasons first Appearnce in New Earth Batman Story)_

*December 1986* 
Legends #2, Batman #402
Detective Comics #569 _(featured the pre crisis Catwoman)_

*January 1987* 
Legends #3
Batman #403
Detective Comics #570 _(featured the pre crisis Catwoman)_

*February 1987* 
Legends #4
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #28
Detective Comics #571

*March 1987* 
Legends #5
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #29
Detective Comics #572

*April 1987* 
Legends #6
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #30
Detective Comics #573

*May 1987* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #31
Detective Comics #574 _(Jasons New Origin is mentioned the first time)_

*June 1987* 
Batman #408 _(Jasons New Origin Part 1)_

*July 1987* 
Batman #409 _(Jasons New Origin Part 2)_

*August 1987* 
Batman #410 _(Jasons New Origin Part 3)_

*September 1987* 
Batman #411 _(Jasons New Origin Part 4)_

----------


## K. Jones

> Her just a short time frame for the issues shortly after crisis
> 
> *March 1986*
> Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 _(last Issue of CoIE)_
> 
> *April 1986*
> New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #19
> 
> *May 1986* 
> ...


Having read those, and indeed a lot of just immediate pre and post-crisis stuff, and the comparable stuff around time-rewriting retcon events all through DC, it's pretty obvious that something like the "transition" from like, Old Earth pre-crisis Jason Todd to "New Earth" post-crisis Jason Todd was never cut and dry as soon as COIE # 12's last page was turned. It took several years, multiple events, one issue at a time, for all those new retcon ideas to come to them and be incorporated.

It's basically the "Periodical Effect" - a time-delay on cosmic history rewriting retcons because of the 2-Dimensional monthly paper-printing nature of the DC Universe itself.

----------


## Aahz

I added the canonical appearances of the post crisis appearances of "pre crisis Jason" to the list, that should make it a little bit more clear why I doubt, that the writers in at least some of these stories were really using "post crisis Jason", since "pre crisis Jason" was still active at the time in the Batman Comics.

*March 1986*
Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 _(last Issue of CoIE)_
Detective Comics #560 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*April 1986*
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #19
Batman #394 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #561 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*May 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #20
Batman #395 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #562 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*June 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #21
Batman #396 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #563 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*July 1986*
Batman #397 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #564 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*August 1986*
Batman #398 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #565 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*September 1986*
Batman #399 _(pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #566 _(pre crisis Jason)_

*October 1986* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #24
Batman #400 _(last Earth One Batman Issue, last appearance of pre crisis Jason)_
Detective Comics #567 _(First New Earth Batman Issue)_

*November 1986* 
Legends #1
Batman #401 _(First Issue by Max Collins, Jasons first Appearnce in New Earth Batman Story)_

*December 1986* 
Legends #2, Batman #402
Detective Comics #569 _(featured the pre crisis Catwoman)_

*January 1987* 
Legends #3
Batman #403
Detective Comics #570 _(featured the pre crisis Catwoman)_

*February 1987* 
Legends #4
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #28
Detective Comics #571

*March 1987* 
Legends #5
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #29
Detective Comics #572

*April 1987* 
Legends #6
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #30
Detective Comics #573

*May 1987* 
New Teen Titans Vol. 2 #31
Detective Comics #574 _(Jasons New Origin is mentioned the first time)_

*June 1987* 
Batman #408 _(Jasons New Origin Part 1)_

*July 1987* 
Batman #409 _(Jasons New Origin Part 2)_

*August 1987* 
Batman #410 _(Jasons New Origin Part 3)_

*September 1987* 
Batman #411 _(Jasons New Origin Part 4)_

----------


## sghood

Do you think because the new outlaws team is based in Gotham means they'll cross paths with the new bat team in detective comics? The solicitation said he's undercover so I'm guessing the confrontation with batman is a ruse.

----------


## REAL

I have recently read some of pre-crisis Jason' stories and they were really good. 

I actually don't understand why some people say that pre-crisis Jason was just a copy of Dick because Jason was insecure and wasn't easy going like Dick was and the only thing they have in common was their origins.

----------


## AJpyro

Just got Red Hood/Arsenal vol 1. Still looks great.

----------


## Aioros22

Aazh, thanks for the comprehensive publishing data. Yes, there`s a transition period, no doubt, but the point I wanted to adress is simply that Jason, even after his new origin by Collins, was _not_ written the way it was later written post The Cult by Starlin (even discounting the fact that plotwise he couldn`t be I`m also using the fact Starlin wanted the Robin off). That makes - to me - the Jason written for example during his two mission stint with the Titans as valid as anything else in the same time period. 

Let`s say that _maybe_ Wolfman wrote him more with a pre crisis sensability (if you can call it that) but since he wasn`t the only one, why disregard it? Collins wrote Jason with some of the same characteristics that Wolfman did. This Jason was quick on his feet, more mature in some ways, flirty (compared to Dick that is), and so on. He didn`t start to play it as a game until the _Diplomat`s Daugther_.

I find it easier to believe that even knowing the new origin, writers were simply going for a balance in character, which makes the later Starlin material the outlier, not the norm. 

Now, what do I mean with outlier here? In terms of storytelling making Jason going through later stories like the Cult, his bout with Two Face and the DD is fine. That has potential. Ruining that potential by rushing in to a publicity stunt just to get rid of "Robin" is what stained those stories. You could tell it wasn`t just the plot that moved Starlin to that road, it was also a dismissive attitude to a concept and not really an endgame that would pay off. It`s telling how Starlin doesn`t have actual Batman material after DITF.

----------


## Aioros22

> I have recently read some of pre-crisis Jason' stories and they were really good. 
> 
> I actually don't understand why some people say that pre-crisis Jason was just a copy of Dick because Jason was insecure and wasn't easy going like Dick was and the only thing they have in common was their origins.


I don`t see them the same either but you have to dig depper than the surface to catch it.

----------


## Aahz

> I have recently read some of pre-crisis Jason' stories and they were really good. 
> 
> I actually don't understand why some people say that pre-crisis Jason was just a copy of Dick because Jason was insecure and wasn't easy going like Dick was and the only thing they have in common was their origins.


Imo it is the best version of a realivly classic Bataman and Robin relation.
It is qualitatively imo comparible with the stuff from Tims early time as Robin, and better than most stuff about Dicks early days (and Jasons post crisis stuff).
It is imo really a pity that they didn't gave Jason the street kid origin from the beginning.

----------


## Aioros22

At the time they probably didn`t think about it. Most likely they were afraid to step away from a formula that readers were already used to. 

No way of really knowing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

This hit me harder than I expected





From here

----------


## KrustyKid

> This hit me harder than I expected
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From here


Not bad. Got a little chuckle from this

----------


## SicariiDC

So yeah, never felt any type of way bout Jason Todd Esquire, but I've read the ditf, cult and the pertinent Robin things. This thread, along with under the hood, battle of the cowl and the new 52 crossover stuff got me kinda feeling his stuff...so my question, what's the good red hood stuff to check out?

----------


## Aahz

> So yeah, never felt any type of way bout Jason Todd Esquire, but I've read the ditf, cult and the pertinent Robin things. This thread, along with under the hood, battle of the cowl and the new 52 crossover stuff got me kinda feeling his stuff...so my question, what's the good red hood stuff to check out?


Appart from the things you allready named, Green Arrow Road to Jericho, Nightwing Year One,  and Gotham Knight #43 are quite good.
He has also some Guest appearnces as a Ghost for example in Nightwing secret Files and Origin, Batman Country Line or Deadman Dead Again.


I also liked his New 52 series (but there are many people who don't).

My favourites in the New 52 are the RHatO and Teen Titans issues around Death of the Family, the Zero Issue Tie in, RHatO Futures End and his Guest Appearence in Supergirl #35. 
The later issues from RH/A (starting from roughly the Robin War tie in) look also good, but the arc is not concluded and so I don't really have a final opinion about it.

And if you are interested in stuff that is not part of the main continuity, the Arkham Knight and Arkham Knight Genesis Comics are also good.
And there are some other else World stories with Jason Todd like Robins like the DCAU or Just imagine Stan Lee ... .

----------


## SicariiDC

Good look. How is red hood lost days?

----------


## AJpyro

> Good look. How is red hood lost days?


Quite liked it. It expanded on his training during and post resurrection but before Batman Hush. It's great for getting a feel for his characterization and dare I say, has enough material for him if he wanted to go away from the bat-fam and do freelance work. 

THough warning *spoilers:*
Talia gets it on with him. I think it was after Ras getting killed for realses and she's spiraling into a mad depression and rage and wanted to hurt bruce.
*end of spoilers* 

So yeah. Squicky but overall a good solo piece.

----------


## REAL

> So yeah, never felt any type of way bout Jason Todd Esquire, but I've read the ditf, cult and the pertinent Robin things. This thread, along with under the hood, battle of the cowl and the new 52 crossover stuff got me kinda feeling his stuff...so my question, what's the good red hood stuff to check out?


Well, my personal favorite stories of Jason are:
Batman: early 80s stories (it's pretty hard to find tho) 
New Teen Titans: 18-31 
Superman: For the Man Who Has Everything 
Batman: Second Chances 
Detective Comic (Barr & Davis run) 
DC Retroactive: Batman - The 80s
Gotham Knight: 43
Batman: Under the Red hood 
Red Hood: Lost Days 
Batman and Robin: the Streets are Running Red
Countdown: the search for Ray Palmer 
Red Hood and the Outlaws 
Red Hood/Arsenal 
Arkham Knight: Genesis 

I haven't read them yet to make a judgment, but you might enjoy them:
Batman: The Cult 
Batman and Robin: Revenge of the Red Hood
Batman Inc: Wingman

----------


## AJpyro

> Well, my personal favorite stories of Jason are:
> Batman: early 80s stories (it's pretty hard to find tho) 
> *New Teen Titans: 18-31 
> *Superman: For the Man Who Has Everything 
> Batman: Second Chances 
> Detective Comic (Barr & Davis run) 
> DC Retroactive: Batman - The 80s
> Gotham Knight: 43
> Batman: Under the Red hood 
> ...


Was that when Roy joined the team? Cause I find it hilarious that Roy and Jay were on a team back then. Also I think that was when Lian was introduced or so.

Man wouldn't that be a shock if Lobdell ended RH/A with the return of Lian and the promise of happier times for ROy.

----------


## Aahz

> Was that when Roy joined the team? Cause I find it hilarious that Roy and Jay were on a team back then. Also I think that was when Lian was introduced or so.


This were actually 2 story arcs. In the first Donna brought the Original Team Back together with Jason as Robin (the rest of the Titans was elsewhere occupied with other stuff), and they fought Cheshire and Roy learned of Lians existence.
Than they had a few issues without Jason, where they had to fight Steve Dayton.
And than Jason joined them again to fight the Church of Blood and to rescue Dick and Raven, who were Brain washed by them.

But like I said on the last page, even if this story is set post crisis when the first issues of this story were published the Batman Comics still featured the pre crisis Jason, so I would assume that the Jason in this comics was actually supposed to be the Red Haired Circus Boy and not the black haired Crime Alley Kid. But the story gives no clear indication which Robin it is.

"For the Man Who Has Everything" iirc also pre crisis.

----------


## REAL

> Was that when Roy joined the team? Cause I find it hilarious that Roy and Jay were on a team back then. Also I think that was when Lian was introduced or so.


Nah, it was just a long arc where Donna called the original Titans (which included Roy) and Jason to help her out with some world crisis problem because her team was dealing with some personal drama that I honestly didn't care about. 

Btw, Red Hood and the Outlaws rebirth new cover was reveled here and it's look pretty cool.

----------


## AJpyro

> Nah, it was just a long arc where Donna called the original Titans (which included Roy) and Jason to help her out with some world crisis problem because her team was dealing with some personal drama that I honestly didn't care about. 
> 
> Btw, Red Hood and the Outlaws rebirth new cover was reveled here and it's look pretty cool.


I'm all in for RHatO rebirth. Lobdell's gotten better at it IMO so fresh new start, here we come!

----------


## AJpyro

Hey guys. Over in the Grayson thread, they were talking about iconic/recurring villains created for Dick. That got me thinking: Of the Red hood we've been getting for five years now, who would you say would be his top 5 or so of recurring villains?

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

> I'm all in for RHatO rebirth. Lobdell's gotten better at it IMO so fresh new start, here we come!


so is red hood and arsenal better than his initial outlaws run?

----------


## AJpyro

> so is red hood and arsenal better than his initial outlaws run?




Kinda caught me off guard. I won't have a definite answer till RH/A 13 is out but just from the complete RHatO 1-12 to RH/A 1-12:

...It's better. But by the minimalist of margins.

RHatO had to juggle a three man group and got stuck in a bloody crossover. 

-Vol 1 did well enough to set up a good year or half a year of story for Jason while giving the group 2 possible recurring villains.

-vol 2 while at first Starfire's reboot/nu52 status was...mixed (I've just started reading NTT by Wolfram/Perez and the Animated show is one of my favs despite her not being my favorite) but she got a better showing during her space arc which i quite liked since it added more to the Outlaws by giving them a niche/place in terms of street level/supernatural/sci-fi (ironically the same thing for Spiderman and x-men). 

Vol 3 was when the DotF took place and Lobdell did fine with it. Especially #17-18 as a good break chapter and psychological dive that put to rest (for now IMO) the issues between Jason and bruce.

Now for Red Hood and Arsenal:

Vol 1- This was a bit quicker in setting things up. The first three were fun in their refuge in silly buddy cop action as well as setting a longer term plan for speculation. 4-5 was the kinda sorta cameo of Gordon Bats that had the reaffirming that things are coolish between Bruce and Jason as well as opening more on characters from Jason's past. It felt like the building blocks of rebuilding a supporting cast. It also set up for some good developments for Roy as well as tying into the Titans Hunt. 6 was the game changer/status quo shaker. And it was a neat idea mostly because I didn't see it coming and wondering if it could work.

Vol 2-I've read the issues up to 12 so...Jason has had decent showings. His arc with Duela was great pay it forward arc and something I was hoping for when Crux appeared and then reappeared. But I think vol 2 and RH/A as whole was a great showcase for Roy Harper and building him up as a bit darker and flawed but still capable fighter on his own.

So...yeah. I think RH/A was better because the titular duo had a better showings of personal ideas/stories (mostly for Roy who didn't get his own main story arc). I mean he kinda sorta is getting it here with the recent Iron Rule development and the fact that he set up the Rent-a-Bat plot for issues 2-6.

 And in favoritism, I liked the smooth non-face of Jason's helmet for RH/A more.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

and thoughts about the premise of The New Outlaws?

----------


## AJpyro

Cautious Optimism in the Dark.

Like many, I want to like this new book and it does sound interesting.

But one thing bothering me is Jason's autonomy. The fact that he's going undercover for Bruce is a bit of a point taker. Like I know things are cool between the two but I don't want the premise of the book to be Jason on a mission for the Bat-fam. Or for him to be stationed in gotham.

I want him to be out and about in the world. Helping make things of DC's world building for the street level heroes and shedding some light on the criminal world outside of Gotham. He doesn't need a city to operate out of. He just needs to be out there.

As for his teammates: Bizarro is an odd duck. I mean from the NU52 I saw him on the Lex Luthor issue of Forever Evil but this was when I took off from alot of DC and mostly stayed for RHatO. But...eh. I mean I never woulda guessed there'd be a red hood team book and I was pleasantly surprised with what I got.

As for Artemis, I read up on her a bit and I'm a bit interested. She's pretty much a blank slate at this point so why not?

I'm sad to see the whole OG team not together again but I want the book to continue. As long as its on, there's hope for team ups and crossovers (after a a good chunk of status quo has been established and maybe just a fun little thing that doesn't alter the SQ).

----------


## Tony Stark

I think the Dark Trinity angle sounds exciting and can't wait for it. With this powerful of a team, Jason is going to be doing a lot of serious damage.

----------


## REAL

> Hey guys. Over in the Grayson thread, they were talking about iconic/recurring villains created for Dick. That got me thinking: Of the Red hood we've been getting for five years now, who would you say would be his top 5 or so of recurring villains?


Well, there's Untitled, Suzie Su, Underbelly and Iron Rule, but I wouldn't call them iconic and I honestly don't think we will see any of them again (except Suzie maybe because Lobdell seems to like using her). 

Five years are actually too short for Jason to have iconic villains yet. 




> But one thing bothering me is Jason's autonomy. The fact that he's going undercover for Bruce is a bit of a point taker. Like I know things are cool between the two but I don't want the premise of the book to be Jason on a mission for the Bat-fam. Or for him to be stationed in gotham.


Yeah, I am not happy that Jason working undercover for batman and him being in Gotham, but having Artemis and Bizarro as teammate give me hope that he will not stay there for long. 

Other than that, RHATO REBIRTH and the idea of dark Trinity seems pretty interesting.

----------


## Chrysalis_Changling

It'd be interesting if the new outlaws became the first New 52 Lobdell written book to be praised by the majority

----------


## sghood

Interested to see how the new team works out. I think it would be kinda cool if the outlaws roster rotated with other anti heroes and villains or characters like star fire who was just kind of lost and wanted the freedom that comes with being an 'outlaw' and being able to discover the type of hero they want to be without the goody two shoes and pressure that comes with being in the Titans or JL. I've seen some people on here talk about if they wanted Jason in suicide squad and my imaginary idea lol is that Jason kills a prominent Gotham rogue and batman pulls strings to have him on the squad. He was better suited for it right after battle for the cowl though

----------


## DragonPiece

> It'd be interesting if the new outlaws became the first New 52 Lobdell written book to be praised by the majority


Regardless of how the book is, I don't see it being praised by majority. People may like the art, but no way a majority likes this book. He'll mess it up at some point.

----------


## Godlike13

I don't think the majority is even gonna give it much of a chance, if any at all. Much like with RH/A.

----------


## REAL

> I've seen some people on here talk about if they wanted Jason in suicide squad and my imaginary idea lol is that Jason kills a prominent Gotham rogue and batman pulls strings to have him on the squad. He was better suited for it right after battle for the cowl though


It would have been better if it was right after UtRH.

----------


## REAL

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH • Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “Dark Trinity” part one! When a turf war puts Black Mask in Red Hood’s crosshairs, Jason discovers that the False Face Society is not what it seems, and that the organization is about to auction off a powerful weapon. As criminals from all over the globe descend on Gotham City, Jason must prove that he belongs amongst the city’s worst in order to gain access to this Dark Summit!
> On sale AUGUST 10 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+


The more I read about this book, the more excited I get.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Very interested on see how Lobdell tackles Black Mask here, hopefully it will shed some light on how his version of UtRH went.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Sounds interesting. I can't wait to see how this story pans out and if it gives any clues as to how UtRH went down in this continuity.

----------


## sghood

you think that powerful weapon might be bizarro lol?

----------


## Tony Stark

> The more I read about this book, the more excited I get.


Same here. I think it's going to be great.

----------


## Aahz

> Very interested on see how Lobdell tackles Black Mask here, hopefully it will shed some light on how his version of UtRH went.


I think that UtRH was nearly identical in the new 52 (appart from Onyx, but she wasn't really important for the plot anyway). Only what happened afterwards was drastically different.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think that UtRH was nearly identical in the new 52 (appart from Onyx, but she wasn't really important for the plot anyway). Only what happened afterwards was drastically different.


Wrong. We were explicitly shown that Dick fought against Jason to save Bruce, something that didnt happen in the original UtRH

----------


## AJpyro

> Wrong. We were explicitly shown that Dick fought against Jason to save Bruce, something that didnt happen in the original UtRH


Now that's something I'd like to see. While I love the movie's showing, I'd like to see the NU52 UTRH as something of more of a bat-fam battle. Maybe Jason recruited some new street level supers (tbn) to keep the others distracted while he and Bruce worked things out

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think that UtRH was nearly identical in the new 52 (appart from Onyx, but she wasn't really important for the plot anyway). Only what happened afterwards was drastically different.


I'd actually be given to agree with you due to the entire history of the current DCU undergoing a shift with Rebirth.(The "in story" reason seems to be some sort of time erasing shinanigans involving some demon?.) Given that they seem to be restoring Jason's pre-FP origin I suspect we'll be seeing a bit more of a traditional take on the character and his history but that it might have a N52 slate to it. So we might end up something along the lines of the more traditional UtRH with slight alterations but we might also have things like his training with the All Caste still being a part of his overall training prior to his return to Gotham in UtRH.

----------


## REAL

Living Dead Boy: Jason Todd vs. The Culture That Killed (And Resurrected) Him

The best article I have ever about Jason. It's long, but totally worth the read.

----------


## Aahz

> Living Dead Boy: Jason Todd vs. The Culture That Killed (And Resurrected) Him
> 
> The best article I have ever about Jason. It's long, but totally worth the read.


But there are still mistakes in the article. Jason wasn't erased after COIE, bothe the pre and post crisis version had appearance before Jason got a new origin (which happened btw. in Batman 408 and not in 409).

And the Joker didn't manipulate Jason to search for his mother in the original Death in the Family that was added in the new 52.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Living Dead Boy: Jason Todd vs. The Culture That Killed (And Resurrected) Him
> 
> The best article I have ever about Jason. It's long, but totally worth the read.


Nice article despite some errors within it. 

I do find it a bit ironic that Denny O'Neil went on record saying  “It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back,” when referring to Jason's death when it was a "sleazy stunt" that killed him in the first place. That 1-900 stunt was wrong on so many levels in my opinion and I still feel like it was put in place as a way to cover their asses for having brutally killed a teen character within a supposedly "kids" comic. That way they could place the blame of his death on the fans that voted for it and say they were merely following what the fans wanted. I'd have been mad that they killed Jason off if that's what they wanted to do but I would have dealt. This stunt, though  pushed it over the edge for me and was a contributing factor in my taking a long hiatus from American comics at the time.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm very bothered by the way it pretty much ignores all of Jason's accomplishements as character through the five years of the N52.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nice article despite some errors within it. 
> 
> I do find it a bit ironic that Denny O'Neil went on record saying  It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back, when referring to Jason's death when it was a "sleazy stunt" that killed him in the first place. That 1-900 stunt was wrong on so many levels in my opinion and I still feel like it was put in place as a way to cover their asses for having brutally killed a teen character within a supposedly "kids" comic. That way they could place the blame of his death on the fans that voted for it and say they were merely following what the fans wanted. I'd have been mad that they killed Jason off if that's what they wanted to do but I would have dealt. This stunt, though  pushed it over the edge for me and was a contributing factor in my taking a long hiatus from American comics at the time.


When even Frank Miller at the time didn`t hide his disdain for it, you know you went too far. It`s one of those things that may sound kool to try out but in application it`s just stupid in this kind of publishing world. As for the the upcoming Rebirth RATHO, now it makes some sense. Gotham is the place for the sumit, but whoever is Jason`s target is obviously something bigger than just the criminal underwold of the city. 

DC should take this opportunity to make more clear where Jason`s "line" falls into, btw. Im in for Jay employing more brutal methods without a kill unless necessary, with such necessity being the drawn line. Dick and Tim will think of a third option, because that`s what they do, while Jason can be used for that more realistic "hey, there`s really no time. Either you do it or we`re done". 

And when is time to do it, that`s Jason who does it. The bat office already had characters for that, in a way. Azrael, Deadstroke, whatever. Now they have one of the boys but to bring more readers in you need to make clear where the ceiling is and not be so murky about it.

----------


## Aioros22

> But there are still mistakes in the article. Jason wasn't erased after COIE, bothe the pre and post crisis version had appearance before Jason got a new origin (which happened btw. in Batman 408 and not in 409).
> 
> And the Joker didn't manipulate Jason to search for his mother in the original Death in the Family that was added in the new 52.


We don`t even know if he actually did or not. I think this is one of the underlying and subquent underrated things of Loedbell`s run with the character. It makes the relationship between Joker and Jay so much bizarre and metacreepy and I hope we never actually do find out. It`s one of the things that work best like never finding out who V actually was. 
Actually let writers toy with it and give in clues we don`t easily pick about. I like that sort of game.

----------


## Aahz

> “Batman needs a Robin,” young Tim Drake noted. And he was right. After 30-some years of narrative synergy, the dynamic duo were as interwoven with one another as they could be. An empty Robin costume simply wouldn’t do for very long, no matter how desperately fans wanted to shun the concept of a kid sidekick tagging along with their brooding Gothic hero.


Thats imo also not really true. Tim was for the most part of his career as Robin a solo hero (like Dick during his time in collage), there are not many issues were he and Bruce really act like a "dynamic duo", and Bruce was for the most part written as brooding loner afterwards.
And Damain hardly appears in the main Batman series, and even in "Batman and Robin" he was often working solo. Only with Dick he was kind of an "dynamic duo".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So Jason's new design is basically the same as the one he had in the animated movie, just with the Red Bat added to his chest



Other than that, my only complaint is how odd the exposed wrists look. But I can live with that as long the emoting helmet is gone for good.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So Jason's new design is basically the same as the one he had in the animated movie, just with the Red Bat added to his chest
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that, my only complaint is how odd the exposed wrists look. But I can live with that as long the emoting helmet is gone for good.


Except for the exposed wrists I like this design.

----------


## SicariiDC

Aiight cool...before he looked like red skull, it was kinda creepy

----------


## Aioros22

The exposed wrists look to me a visual nod to Rocafort`s initial RATHO design. It adds a level of flair in the character. A sorta of Miami Vice ligthness. 

Other than that, is pretty much the UTRH and RATHO design, more the earlier than former, but I`m happy either way since I feel is his strongest look for both geeks and casuals to get behind.

----------


## AJpyro

Sweetness. Farewell Emoti-helmet!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Seems that the recent DCU exhibit at WB has confirmed the dead robin in the DCEU as Jason

https://www.facebook.com/wbtourholly...6995577050046/

----------


## REAL

> Seems that the recent DCU exhibit at WB has confirmed the dead robin in the DCEU as Jason
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/wbtourholly...6995577050046/




Now DCEU, just give us Red Hood!!

----------


## Aioros22

It was already a give away with the what good guys are left since 20 years line. That`s pretty much the anniversary of Jason`s death in comics. 

Red Hood incoming!

----------


## Starchild

It would be pretty cool to see a RHATO movie.

----------


## godisawesome

Here's some notes I put down on another forum as to how to make sure Jason's Red Hood persona doesn't seem like an exact copy of Winter Soldier:

-Remove any hints of brainwashing or personality erasure from Jason's character; if he's antagonistic (not necessarily villainous in comparison to the Joker et al.), then it should be clear that he is personally making the decisions that lead to the confrontation with Batman, and he should have that Robin sense of humor present throughout.
-Have Batman figure out who he is before the audience has it confirmed. This was one thing the UTRH cartoon movie got right; showcase Batman's detective skills and make it clear early on that he is already tormented by the fact that his son has gone "bad" but that it may be too late to "save" Jason.
-Bring in Dick and use him as a direct foil to both Bruce and Jason. To me, there needs to be multiple Robins in some shape or form; it's worked for literally every cartoon featuring the characters in the last 20 years, and you need that extra dimension of an actual family to wring out maximum drama. To me, the best idea would be to have all three men be autonomous vigilantes, but with Dick holding to a stricter no kill rule, Batman trying to get back towards that same rule, while Jason is full on "kill and replace" with the underworld. And Jason works better if he is opposed by both his "old man" and the "dutiful son" to his prodigal.
-Embrace a "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" set up with Jason as the Ugly side of the trifecta. Jason can't just be an antagonist alone; that fits the Winter Soldier theme too well. He needs to genuinely attempt to supplant and replace an "obsolete" Batman. Maybe even have him express pity towards Bruce and maybe even try and convince Bruce to retire at some point, all while both men try to take down some major villain.
-Give him agency in his death and return. This one I'm actually not so sure about, but I think it might help: have it revealed that Jason "deserted" Bruce intentionally before his death. This could just be him leaving Bats angry to go hunt the Joker, or it could be a mortally wounded Jason contacting Ra's to take up a resurrection offer after Batman apprehends the Joker- alive.

----------


## Dataweaver

On the “Dark Trinity” thing: I'd much rather have a “Dark Trinity” of the Eradicator, Azrael, and Artemis.  Do something else with Jason…

----------


## SicariiDC

I'd love to see Azrael get down with the click...has jpv and Jason ever broke bread?

----------


## AJpyro

Anyone else rereading rhato, rh/a and lost days in preparation for the last issue of rh/a in 2 weeks and rebirth?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Anyone else rereading rhato, rh/a and lost days in preparation for the last issue of rh/a in 2 weeks and rebirth?


Nope. Other than the first arc, I'm not really planning to go back to RHATO, and there's no reason to look back thru RH/A.

I'll read Lost Days, UtRH, and maybe Hush.

I may even write some fanfics, if I'm bored. No not crappy fanfiction; I'm actually a pretty good writer. I may post it here, if I ever get to it.

----------


## AJpyro

> Nope. Other than the first arc, I'm not really planning to go back to RHATO, and there's no reason to look back thru RH/A.
> 
> I'll read Lost Days, UtRH, and maybe Hush.
> 
> I may even write some fanfics, if I'm bored. No not crappy fanfiction; I'm actually a pretty good writer. I may post it here, if I ever get to it.


Not a fan of the Starfire arc? I can see why some would avoid DotF and the 19-31 issues. But I liked that arc seeing as it gave a storyline to Kori for the Nu52. It gave me hope that Roy would get one too and that all 3 members would have more limelight in the teambook.

That said, I wish I could get back into writing fanfics. To this day I have 1 completed to my name and I'd eradicate/rewrite to heck and back if I had the energy.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nope. Other than the first arc, I'm not really planning to go back to RHATO, and there's no reason to look back thru RH/A.
> 
> I'll read Lost Days, UtRH, and maybe Hush.
> 
> I may even write some fanfics, if I'm bored. No not crappy fanfiction; I'm actually a pretty good writer. I may post it here, if I ever get to it.


That`s actually cool, if you have short, stories post it. Who knows, I may end up ilustrating something if I get the time.

----------


## Aioros22

> Anyone else rereading rhato, rh/a and lost days in preparation for the last issue of rh/a in 2 weeks and rebirth?


Lost Days this week actually. 

I usually go back to the first run of RATHO since I find lots of moments that are rewatchable, but I`m not re-reading more than usual since I prefer this new run to be a new experience.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Anyone else think that DC is trying mess with people, by having Artemis suddenly be around Jason, after JL#50?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Meet the new Outlaws

----------


## AJpyro

> Anyone else think that DC is trying mess with people, by having Artemis suddenly be around Jason, after JL#50?


What makes you say that?

----------


## TooFlyToFail

As I said on that thread, Bizarro should've got this look, but kept his New 52 outfit, ditched the cape, wore boots, and then when with a black shirt/red S symbol combo.

Also, it'd help if they went they went the Joe Fixit route, with his personality.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> What makes you say that?


Because Diana's twin is named Jason....and then suddenly Artemis, a very well known amazon, who was once WW, is now hanging around Jason Todd. Unless Diana is much younger than we thought, Todd isn't the fraternal twin, but grouping a Jason with Artemis, of all amazons, right after that reveal....that smells of DC playing with expectations.

----------


## AJpyro

> Because Diana's twin is named Jason....and then suddenly Artemis, a very well known amazon, who was once WW, is now hanging around Jason Todd. Unless Diana is much younger than we thought, Todd isn't the fraternal twin, but grouping a Jason with Artemis, of all amazons, right after that reveal....that smells of DC playing with expectations.


Hmm...sounds too coincidental but interesting.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Because Diana's twin is named Jason....and then suddenly Artemis, a very well known amazon, who was once WW, is now hanging around Jason Todd. Unless Diana is much younger than we thought, Todd isn't the fraternal twin, but grouping a Jason with Artemis, of all amazons, right after that reveal....that smells of DC playing with expectations.


I doubt the Jason mentioned as being the twin of WW is Jason Todd or that Artemis joining the team has any connection to that. What they are doing with this book right now is creating an antihero Trinity using characters that are connected to the JL Trinity. THAT is the only reason behind this particular lineup of characters. Personally, I find it far more likely that the Jason they are talking about is Jason Blood.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Truly the end of an era

----------


## kaimaciel

My guess is that Jason and Roy are gonna have a huge fight and tear apart their friendship. That way, Titans can just swoop the Red Hood and Arsenal adventures under the rug like it never existed, Roy will never mention Jason and probably become besties with Dick instead, pleasing all those people who cried out that Jason was stealing Dick's friends in the beginning of RHaTO.

----------


## Aioros22

> My guess is that Jason and Roy are gonna have a huge fight and tear apart their friendship. That way, Titans can just swoop the Red Hood and Arsenal adventures under the rug like it never existed, Roy will never mention Jason and probably become besties with Dick instead, pleasing all those people who cried out that Jason was stealing Dick's friends in the beginning of RHaTO.


Let`s leave the victim mentality to the other fandoms, shall we  :Cool: 

I don`t care if Dick fans cry or not, RATHO was good. As it is, we are jumping forwards to something else and that`s what matters. In any bearing Lodbell is still writing this so at least part of it won`t get swept under the rug but it`s not like he didn`t hint at it during FE.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

I really don't think the JasonXRoy would have been a problem for Dick Grayson or his fans Pre-52. New 52 destroyed legacy and was constantly shifting on what exactly happened and who knew who.

----------


## Godlike13

I wish Jason would keep Roy. Dick's actual bestie is back. Problem is RHatO wasn't very good and DC doesn't have any reason to not just treat it like it was a placeholder for those the characters. They did it with Starfire, and it seems like they're gonna do it with Roy too.

----------


## Badou

> My guess is that Jason and Roy are gonna have a huge fight and tear apart their friendship. That way, Titans can just swoop the Red Hood and Arsenal adventures under the rug like it never existed, Roy will never mention Jason and probably become besties with Dick instead, pleasing all those people who cried out that Jason was stealing Dick's friends in the beginning of RHaTO.


Zero chance Lobdell does that to his characters. They will most likely part on good terms like they did with Starfire. I thought Lobdell wrote a horrible Starfire (he will probably have to carry around what he did to her and the Teen Titans for the rest of his career) but when he was losing her character he didn't send her off on bad terms with Jason or Roy. So I would imagine that it will be a similar situation here where the two part on good terms but go their separate ways. 

Also I don't speak for all Grayson fans, but I think most of them wouldn't have minded Roy staying with Jason rather than him coming to the Titans book. I don't think Dick and Roy will ever be anything close to best friends.

----------


## Aioros22

> I wish Jason would keep Roy. Dick's actual bestie is back. Problem is RHatO wasn't very good and DC doesn't have any reason to not just treat it like it was a placeholder for those the characters. They did it with Starfire, and it seems like they're gonna do it with Roy too.


I don`t even get why he couldn`t be good friends with both (past editorial demands that is). I like to think that Jason and Roy being besties in the reboot comes like a nod to Jason`s stint with the Titans where Roy was one of the members he got along the best with. RHATO being good is not as dependable on who are best friends for life. It isn`t a legacy thing like it was with the Titans where nostalgia is king and DC keeps trying to grab that lightning twice.

----------


## Godlike13

He could. But the Titans aren't gonna be as tolerate of Roy's less desirable actions, and Jason isn't gonna have the same rapport with a Roy who has to live up to and play by the Titans standards. I think Jason and Roy being besties in the reboot comes more from them being perceived and regarded as screw ups or black sheep. Can't really play on that in a positive light with the Titan next to Dick, Donna, and Wally. Lovable loser doesn't really work on a team like the Titans. And if RHatO was better received, and more respected, other creators and DC wouldn't be so quick to ignore Kory and Roy's time in it or their relationship with Jason. But as we have already seen with Kory they have no problems with just having them act as if RHatO never happened.

----------


## REAL

> Meet the new Outlaws


These guys should be called the miserable trio instead of dark Trinity. 

Artemis design looks really good tho.

----------


## REAL

We finally getting BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS - THE LAST CRUSADE next week!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I had forgotten about that one.

Hopefully Miller's take on Jason is better than the way he handled Dick on ASB&R

----------


## Aahz

Wasn't this just based on Millers stuff and written by someone else?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Wasn't this just based on Millers stuff and written by someone else?


Er, the article linked literally has Miller saying he's much more involved in this story compared to DK3

----------


## AJpyro

Comrades. Tomorrow is the day. Prepare your man tears.

----------


## Aioros22

> I had forgotten about that one.
> 
> Hopefully Miller's take on Jason is better than the way he handled Dick on ASB&R


If it was released back then the odds would be 100%. I hope Miller doesn`t go Starlin on this and pulls a 360º from the direction Jason was namechecked in the original story. I.e: one who made him feel honored and the reason to retire. 

I also hope he doesn`t turn him into Joker or something. If young Dick (Miller`s ASB&R) wasn`t right in the head, I`m dying to find out how Jason will turn out to be.

----------


## Aioros22

> He could. But the Titans aren't gonna be as tolerate of Roy's less desirable actions, and Jason isn't gonna have the same rapport with a Roy who has to live up to and play by the Titans standards. I think Jason and Roy being besties in the reboot comes more from them being perceived and regarded as screw ups or black sheep. Can't really play on that in a positive light with the Titan next to Dick, Donna, and Wally. Lovable loser doesn't really work on a team like the Titans.


Yeah, but Roy was never in the same moral realm that Dick and Donna were. He was somewhere between them and Hawk. His background got shadier as he grew older and with bigger compromises than either Donna or Dick. Suicide Squad, the Government..




> And if RHatO was better received, and more respected, other creators and DC wouldn't be so quick to ignore Kory and Roy's time in it or their relationship with Jason. But as we have already seen with Kory they have no problems with just having them act as if RHatO never happened.


Absence of mention isn`t erasing what happened. RATHO and its members were presented in other books at the time and juggled timewise with Eternal. 

That being said, I`m all for writers pick what they care to use.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Zero chance Lobdell does that to his characters. They will most likely part on good terms like they did with Starfire. I thought Lobdell wrote a horrible Starfire (he will probably have to carry around what he did to her and the Teen Titans for the rest of his career) but when he was losing her character he didn't send her off on bad terms with Jason or Roy. So I would imagine that it will be a similar situation here where the two part on good terms but go their separate ways. 
> 
> Also I don't speak for all Grayson fans, but I think most of them wouldn't have minded Roy staying with Jason rather than him coming to the Titans book. I don't think Dick and Roy will ever be anything close to best friends.


Well not after he dated his ex finace

----------


## DragonPiece

> Wasn't this just based on Millers stuff and written by someone else?


interview makes it sound like Miller actually did some work on this book compared to TDK 3, so that's good at least. I like reading a crazy Miller story. Plus I am intrigued by the idea of a psycho robin.

----------


## Aahz

> interview makes it sound like Miller actually did some work on this book compared to TDK 3, so that's good at least. I like reading a crazy Miller story. Plus I am intrigued by the idea of a psycho robin.


I just hope they give him a heroic death and don't go for the Jason was incompetent and disobedient stuff.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t mind the disobedient within balance. At some point that`s part of the story. The trick is not to exagerate the story like some post DITF writers tried to laughingly claim in some flashbacks. But I get that point, since the one thing I hate about Loedbell`s take on Jason is the need for him to consider himself as a "not perfect Robin" on basis on what happened, despite the fact that they all disobeyed Batman before. Even Batman disobeys Batman. But alas, it`s brought in to highligh the contrast in Jason. It`s not my favorite storytelling tool but it`s there. 

I have a bigger grip with the incompetent part which is absolutely bull. It was bull when Loeb mentioned it in Hush and it would be bull today. Luckily in that regard even Bruce has mentioned they all deserved to wear the mantle, which is the basic truth. All the mains that got to be part of the franchise history brought something to it. 

Anyhow, there has to be a sort of rift in the tale but all I want is for that to be well handled.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh and a way the classic costume works so well here instead of retroactically trying to make something modern (which they can still do along the story I guess) but the Sharp contrast between the old school with the dystopian certainly feels DKR. I daresay more than even the main book.

----------


## AJpyro

My body was not ready for RH/A 13. My duo is gone....

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

With the series over this blogger looks back at it to give their opinion on what worked, what failed through the series' run. I think they make really great points and prove that the series had going a lot more than critics gave credit for.

https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-1.html
https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-2.html

----------


## REAL

> With the series over this blogger looks back at it to give their opinion on what worked, what failed through the series' run. I think they make really great points and prove that the series had going a lot more than critics gave credit for.
> 
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-1.html
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-2.html


Really great blog and the guy put some really good points.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> With the series over this blogger looks back at it to give their opinion on what worked, what failed through the series' run. I think they make really great points and prove that the series had going a lot more than critics gave credit for.
> 
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-1.html
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-2.html


That was a really great blog with some very good points. Thanks for posting the links.

----------


## Rise

Question to Jason Todd fans. 

Why Red Hood fans aren't much active in comic community? At first I thought it was because he doesn't have many fans, but that obviously not the case at all because people on the social media really love him. I even dare to say that he became the most popular Robin. 

So why many of his fans don't get themselves involved in comics and the fans who do aren't really active?

----------


## REAL

> Question to Jason Todd fans. 
> 
> Why Red Hood fans aren't much active in comic community? At first I thought it was because he doesn't have many fans, but that obviously not the case at all because people on the social media really love him. I even dare to say that he became the most popular Robin. 
> 
> So why many of his fans don't get themselves involved in comics and the fans who do aren't really active?


We are very busy people  :Cool: . 

In all seriousness, it's because dc are not doing a heck of a job to get his fans interested in comics. If anything, dc is doing very good job on driving his fans away. 

The fans who do read comics don't get themselves involved in CC because it's such bitter and closed minded community. And honestly, it's better not to get involved.

----------


## AJpyro

> With the series over this blogger looks back at it to give their opinion on what worked, what failed through the series' run. I think they make really great points and prove that the series had going a lot more than critics gave credit for.
> 
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-1.html
> https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ew-part-2.html


This was a wonderful look at the series. I never considered most of it but it makes rereading RH/A much more fun and more heartbreaking. I hope JD comes back though.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> We are very busy people . 
> 
> In all seriousness, it's because dc are not doing a heck of a job to get his fans interested in comics. If anything, dc is doing very good job on driving his fans away. 
> 
> The fans who do read comics don't get themselves involved in CC because it's such bitter and closed minded community. And honestly, it's better not to get involved.


I have to agree with REAL and I'm saying that as one of the more active Jason Todd fans on here. Neither DC nor the CC has been very kind to Jaybird or his fans and frankly that really frustrates me. I hated the 1-900 stunt that was the impetus for his death. I hated how he was afterwards treated as a cautionary tale and how writers made him out to be a bad Robin when he was nothing of the sort. I hated how his character was allowed to stagnate after his resurrection. As for the CC I got tired of being treated like I was an idiot for even liking the character in the first place.

----------


## AJpyro

> Question to Jason Todd fans. 
> 
> Why Red Hood fans aren't much active in comic community? At first I thought it was because he doesn't have many fans, but that obviously not the case at all because people on the social media really love him. I even dare to say that he became the most popular Robin. 
> 
> So why many of his fans don't get themselves involved in comics and the fans who do aren't really active?





> We are very busy people . 
> 
> In all seriousness, it's because dc are not doing a heck of a job to get his fans interested in comics. If anything, dc is doing very good job on driving his fans away. 
> 
> The fans who do read comics don't get themselves involved in CC because it's such bitter and closed minded community. And honestly, it's better not to get involved.





> I have to agree with REAL and I'm saying that as one of the more active Jason Todd fans on here. Neither DC nor the CC has been very kind to Jaybird or his fans and frankly that really frustrates me. I hated the 1-900 stunt that was the impetus for his death. I hated how he was afterwards treated as a cautionary tale and how writers made him out to be a bad Robin when he was nothing of the sort. I hated how his character was allowed to stagnate after his resurrection. As for the CC I got tired of being treated like I was an idiot for even liking the character in the first place.


Pretty much. Didn't help when those annoying posters crying about "Jay stealing Dick's friends!"

----------


## godisawesome

I've been trying to temper my blatant distaste for Scott Lobdell the last few months because I could tell from your guys's reactions that the guy has skill with Roy and Jason. I'm personally not going to favor his work, but the guy's not an actual slouch when he's having fun; he clearly captured the voices for Roy and Jason.

And I'd give you guys credit; you do more to establish a CC presence for the Red Hood books than the Batman Beyond or Teen Titans books have had in the last year. I still think Lobdell kind of got a raw deal on TT and reacted badly to it; he didn't seem to be interested much after the Culling, and his last few appearances as a writer for the characters always seemed worn out. I figure editorial was ghost writing that book more and more, while his time on RHATO and RH&A saw enough creative freedom to do his job right. I mean, I never saw his work on those latter two books reach the same level of bad pacing and archaic style as TT did.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I've been trying to temper my blatant distaste for Scott Lobdell the last few months because I could tell from your guys's reactions that the guy has skill with Roy and Jason. I'm personally not going to favor his work, but the guy's not an actual slouch when he's having fun; he clearly captured the voices for Roy and Jason.
> 
> And I'd give you guys credit; you do more to establish a CC presence for the Red Hood books than the Batman Beyond or Teen Titans books have had in the last year. I still think Lobdell kind of got a raw deal on TT and reacted badly to it; he didn't seem to be interested much after the Culling, and his last few appearances as a writer for the characters always seemed worn out. I figure editorial was ghost writing that book more and more, while his time on RHATO and RH&A saw enough creative freedom to do his job right. I mean, I never saw his work on those latter two books reach the same level of bad pacing and archaic style as TT did.


Well, word on street is that was exactly what happened with the TT and Lobdell. Honestly for all the bitching Lobdell gets, is undeniable he was one of the writers most affected by editorial's tendency to micro-managing through the bulk of the N52. Even in RH/A where he had more freedom, you can pinpoint the exact point where editorial started messing with his plans.

----------


## Rise

Thank you for answering my question!

Your reasons are understandable and I admit that some of the Comic fans (cape fans in particular) are really annoying and close minded. 

About DC, I remember Didio once said that many people wrote in to demand a series with Jason and it was the most requests they got for a series. So they are aware of his popularity which makes me wonder why they didn't give him the push and promote him more like they did with Harley. 

I don't care much about the big two, but Jason is very interesting character with a lot of potential and I wish that DC give him more attention.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

I played the Red Hood DLC for Batman Arkham Knight the other day, and I really like his voice actor. He has a ragged violent edge but the humor you'd expect a former Robin to have.

----------


## Pohzee

> I played the Red Hood DLC for Batman Arkham Knight the other day, and I really like his voice actor. He has a ragged violent edge but the humor you'd expect a former Robin to have.


Troy Baker is everyone in everything. Nightwing, Robin, Two-Face, Jason, Joker, etc.

----------


## oasis1313

> Thank you for answering my question!
> 
> Your reasons are understandable and I admit that some of the Comic fans (cape fans in particular) are really annoying and close minded. 
> 
> About DC, I remember Didio once said that many people wrote in to demand a series with Jason and it was the most requests they got for a series. So they are aware of his popularity which makes me wonder why they didn't give him the push and promote him more like they did with Harley. 
> 
> I don't care much about the big two, but Jason is very interesting character with a lot of potential and I wish that DC give him more attention.


I would second that.  I have no interest whatsoever in Batman or Superman.  I do think Jason could carry his own book without saddling him with a team, although I wouldn't mind seeing Scarlet back with him.  DC needs to keep in mind that Jason is The Man who clawed his way out of his own grave.  That's TOUGH.

----------


## ImprobableQuestion

> Troy Baker is everyone in everything. Nightwing, Robin, Two-Face, Jason, Joker, etc.


Oh wow, I know Troy Baker from a lot of things but I totally didn't call him being Jason. It's interesting that he voices three characters that are all very similar, but can still give them distinct voices. I suppose it would be easier to tell if any combination of the two were on screen at the same time.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I've been trying to temper my blatant distaste for Scott Lobdell the last few months because I could tell from your guys's reactions that the guy has skill with Roy and Jason. I'm personally not going to favor his work, but the guy's not an actual slouch when he's having fun; he clearly captured the voices for Roy and Jason.


I respect your opinion there. Everyone likes different things and there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people like Morrison's body of work, for example, but I don't care for it except in one or two instances. 




> And I'd give you guys credit; you do more to establish a CC presence for the Red Hood books than the Batman Beyond or Teen Titans books have had in the last year. I still think Lobdell kind of got a raw deal on TT and reacted badly to it; he didn't seem to be interested much after the Culling, and his last few appearances as a writer for the characters always seemed worn out. I figure editorial was ghost writing that book more and more, while his time on RHATO and RH&A saw enough creative freedom to do his job right. I mean, I never saw his work on those latter two books reach the same level of bad pacing and archaic style as TT did.


Well for myself personally I've felt like TT has been a mess for years before Lobdell was even involved with it and that the current Batman Beyond book's direction was just a mistake from the start. As for Lobdell's run on TT myself I do think it was badly micromanaged by editorial and that the writing suffered badly because of that. It's kind of difficult to build up a decent direction story-wise or to develop your characters even if your book is constantly being pulled into editorially mandated crossovers with other titles. Things may have gone better for it if they had left Lobdell to his own devices for a bit to really build up the characters and their world first before having the book be involved in crossovers. Honestly a lot of books had the same problems.

----------


## Aioros22

> Pretty much. Didn't help when those annoying posters crying about "Jay stealing Dick's friends!"


Yeah, I feel most of us learned to show the hand and filter throught. I can give as good as I get but if I have an investiment is, in this case, the character, not necessarily the CC on itself. This is a general trend..but as much fun I have here with you folks and trust me, I tend to do, I can only take so much of that kind of arguments. 

I don`t care if Jason hangs around other characters that were also tied to Dick. Too bad. 

I don`t care if you think he shouldn`t have returned. Move on. 

I don`t care if him being around makes you feel questioning about _Batman_. It`s supposed to. 

DWI.

----------


## Rise

> Yeah, I feel most of us learned to show the hand and filter throught. I can give as good as I get but if I have an investiment is, in this case, the character, not necessarily the CC on itself. This is a general trend..but as much fun I have here with you folks and trust me, I tend to do, I can only take so much of that kind of arguments. 
> 
> I don`t care if Jason hangs around other characters that were also tied to Dick. Too bad. 
> 
> *I don`t care if you think he shouldn`t have returned. Move on.* 
> 
> I don`t care if him being around makes you feel questioning about _Batman_. It`s supposed to. 
> 
> DWI.


This one especially confuse me. Bucky was dead for 40 years and he was one of the characters that no one thought will ever come back, but you don't see marvel fans whine about how he should have stayed dead like some of DC fans do with Jason Todd.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The difference lies in the way both characters have been handled by their respective editorials. With Bucky there was a clear direction set for him after his resurrection, thus making his return worth before the eyes of the audience.

Jason wasn't so lucky. Winnick never intended back then for him to be nothing more than a one shot villian but he proved himself popular, making editorial decide to keep him around but without a clear idea of what doing with him. You can see that for the way he was flopping around by a few years doing nothing really distinctive. The first idea editorial decided to use was making him take the Nightwing's mantle (back when Dick was supposed to die in Infinite Crisis). With nothing notorious under his belt, and basically repeating his own publication story, this movement soured a lot of people on him since they saw him (justifiedly) as once again taking over a name he didn't deserved nor earned. Once that Dick was spared, editorial once again scrambled about finding a place for him, this chance came with Countdown. Where he was meant to become Red Robin and join the batfamily again and what I assume would be a role similar to Azrael, a conflicted ally working to make up for his past mistakes. However, Morrison decided to use Damian as Robin on his run, leaving Tim Drake without a place in the DCU. Editorial saw Tim as the more profitable character of the two so they scrapped their plans with Jason and gave the Red Robin identity to Tim.

This soured the audience even more, who started to worry what was the damn point of bringing Jason back since clearly DC didn't knew what to do with him. DC's attempt to turn him into a villian didn't help to clear that impression and Jason could've possibly faded into obscurity if it weren't by the animated movie. With the movie raising his profile and attracting a whole new set of fans not familiar with comics, there was a noticeable schism in the fanbase: those who were sick of Jason and those that wanted to see more of him.

With the N52, editorial decided to scrap most of the stuff they have did with Jason and set a proper direction for him, using Under the Red Hood as the starting point for this. however the damage was done, Jason spent six years bouncing around between writers slowly wearing thin the patience of a lot of readers and by picking Lobdell (an incredibly polarizing writer for some reason) as the main architect for Jason's story only exarcerbated the hate against Jason. Even now, five years later and with Jason having a proper direction and characterization, a lot of people have kind of given up on him and only wish to see him gone.

----------


## REAL

> This one especially confuse me. Bucky was dead for 40 years and he was one of the characters that no one thought will ever come back, but you don't see marvel fans whine about how he should have stayed dead like some of DC fans do with Jason Todd.


Bucky is like our dick grayson. You either like him or simply don't care about him because he isn't interesting enough to give him a second look if he didn't mange to catch your attention. 

Jason on other hand is different. You forced to pay attention to him even if you don't like him. There is just  something very interesting about him that either appeal to you and make you his fan or get you really irritated and bitter about him. In other words, he is controversial character and usually this type of character always get a big reaction from the fans whether it was negative or positive. Which is why you see Jason has some very passionate haters compared to bucky.

----------


## Aahz

> With the N52, editorial decided to scrap most of the stuff they have did with Jason and set a proper direction for him, using Under the Red Hood as the starting point for this. however the damage was done, Jason spent six years bouncing around between writers slowly wearing thin the patience of a lot of readers and by picking Lobdell (an incredibly polarizing writer for some reason) as the main architect for Jason's story only exarcerbated the hate against Jason. Even now, five years later and with Jason having a proper direction and characterization, a lot of people have kind of given up on him and only wish to see him gone.


But the "proper direction and characterization" also applies only to his own book. As soon as he appears in Batfamily titles, his characterization is completly different (and much less appealing) and the writers seem not really to have an idea what to do with him. Which usually leads to him just being there and not really doing anything cool, or in the worst case playing the comic relief for other charters and beeing used to make them look good. 

Another problem is also that there are a lot of "Morrsion Fans" who for some reason think that what he did with Jason would be the best way to use the character, while most "Jason Fans" absolutely hate what Morrison did and are very happy that it was erased by the new 52.

----------


## Godlike13

You don't see Marvel fans whine about how Bucky should have stayed dead because Bucky's death wasn't as monumental as Jason's death. Plus Jason's return was done much clumsier than Bucky's.

----------


## Rise

> Bucky is like our dick grayson.* You either like him or simply don't care about him* because he isn't interesting enough to give him a second look if he didn't mange to catch your attention. 
> 
> Jason on other hand is different. You forced to pay attention to him even if you don't like him. There is just  something very interesting about him that either appeal to you and make you his fan or get you really irritated and bitter about him. In other words, he is controversial character and usually this type of character always get a big reaction from the fans whether it was negative or positive. Which is why you see Jason has some very passionate haters compared to bucky.


This is seriously so accurate. Bucky has a lot of crazy fangirls, but then you have people who literally asked "Who is Bucky again?" before watching CW despite the fact that they already saw TFS and TWS. 

And it's really interesting that you compared Bucky to Grayson because a lot of people compare him to Jason, but I do agree that he is more like Grayson than Jason.

----------


## byrd156

> You don't see Marvel fans whine about how Bucky should have stayed dead because Bucky's death wasn't as monumental as Jason's death. Plus Jason's return was done much clumsier than Bucky's.


Winter Soldier is actually enjoyable to read and watch, while Jason is not. Morrison is the only writer to do anything good with him.

----------


## Rise

> The difference lies in the way both characters have been handled by their respective editorials. With Bucky there was a clear direction set for him after his resurrection, thus making his return worth before the eyes of the audience.
> 
> Jason wasn't so lucky. Winnick never intended back then for him to be nothing more than a one shot villian but he proved himself popular, making editorial decide to keep him around but without a clear idea of what doing with him. You can see that for the way he was flopping around by a few years doing nothing really distinctive. The first idea editorial decided to use was making him take the Nightwing's mantle (back when Dick was supposed to die in Infinite Crisis). With nothing notorious under his belt, and basically repeating his own publication story, this movement soured a lot of people on him since they saw him (justifiedly) as once again taking over a name he didn't deserved nor earned. Once that Dick was spared, editorial once again scrambled about finding a place for him, this chance came with Countdown. Where he was meant to become Red Robin and join the batfamily again and what I assume would be a role similar to Azrael, a conflicted ally working to make up for his past mistakes. However, Morrison decided to use Damian as Robin on his run, leaving Tim Drake without a place in the DCU. Editorial saw Tim as the more profitable character of the two so they scrapped their plans with Jason and gave the Red Robin identity to Tim.
> 
> This soured the audience even more, who started to worry what was the damn point of bringing Jason back since clearly DC didn't knew what to do with him. DC's attempt to turn him into a villian didn't help to clear that impression and Jason could've possibly faded into obscurity if it weren't by the animated movie. With the movie raising his profile and attracting a whole new set of fans not familiar with comics, there was a noticeable schism in the fanbase: those who were sick of Jason and those that wanted to see more of him.
> 
> With the N52, editorial decided to scrap most of the stuff they have did with Jason and set a proper direction for him, using Under the Red Hood as the starting point for this. however the damage was done, Jason spent six years bouncing around between writers slowly wearing thin the patience of a lot of readers and by picking Lobdell (an incredibly polarizing writer for some reason) as the main architect for Jason's story only exarcerbated the hate against Jason. Even now, five years later and with Jason having a proper direction and characterization, a lot of people have kind of given up on him and only wish to see him gone.


Interesting analysis and DC definitely didn't handle Jason well after UTRH, but I do agree with REAL's point that there are some real bitterness about him and that he is a controversial character. Just a few days ago there were some fans discussing on Twitter about how much they hate him and wish that he stayed dead and it's not the first time I see that. 

Yes, Jason's death is much more iconic than Becky's, but there's so many things you can do with him now as Red Hood and he is better off now than just being the uniform behind the glass and Batman's manpain.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Winter Soldier is actually enjoyable to read and watch, while Jason is not. Morrison is the only writer to do anything good with him.


Funnily enough I like both Bucky and Jason. Also Morrison really didn't do much of anything with Jason to be honest. Yeah, he gave him Wingman but as far as I remember, and no I didn't read Batman, Inc, wasn't Wingman captured and taken out of the picture for all intents and purposes? That's hardly better the what happened to Dick in Forever Evil IMHO or the bouncing around the character did prior to that. Maybe Morrison had a planned direction for the character or maybe he didn't but the fact is once he was done with Batman, Inc. he was basically done with the franchise. Whatever he may have had planned thus becomes a moot point.

----------


## Aioros22

> You don't see Marvel fans whine about how Bucky should have stayed dead because Bucky's death wasn't as monumental as Jason's death. Plus Jason's return was done much clumsier than Bucky's.


Agree on part 1, can agree on part II since yes Bruebaker is more finesse than Winnick and didn`t had to deal with a wide titles crossover at the time, but that`s the major difference (other than tone) for me. Both returns were huge and well done and overall well received and hugely catapulted Bucky and Jason to a new audience that doesn`t have the baggage of a stupid publicity poll or a Stan Lee law-ish of sidekicks being a silly afterthough. 

And that`s pretty much the big reason Jason gets the whiners - and I particularly mention the whiners here because I`m more than fine with fans who dislike him because that`s par the course for every character. I don`t waste time on characters I don`t care about. Whiners, because of said poll and it`s fallback, feeling they are criatively entitled or growing up reading one writer or two using Jason as this bashandly example of why a Robin can suck and fail, _do_ and just glue it in. To little avail, because whoever read him at the time knows Jason failed and acomplished as much as Dick or any Elsewords character in the same role, with the respective personal differences.




> Winter Soldier is actually enjoyable to read and watch, while Jason is not. Morrison is the only writer to do anything good with him.


I can say the same for Winter Soldier. You have Bruekaber and then little else. 

Actually I kid, I can easily name more than one writer who wrote well either character in the respective companies. But whiners don`t really care about personal taste either way, that`s the sticking point.

----------


## Aahz

> Winter Soldier is actually enjoyable to read and watch, while Jason is not. Morrison is the only writer to do anything good with him.


Thanks for proofing my point. :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Funnily enough I like both Bucky and Jason. Also Morrison really didn't do much of anything with Jason to be honest. Yeah, he gave him Wingman but as far as I remember, and no I didn't read Batman, Inc, wasn't Wingman captured and taken out of the picture for all intents and purposes? That's hardly better the what happened to Dick in Forever Evil IMHO or the bouncing around the character did prior to that. Maybe Morrison had a planned direction for the character or maybe he didn't but the fact is once he was done with Batman, Inc. he was basically done with the franchise. Whatever he may have had planned thus becomes a moot point.


Most people refer to the ginger pill helmet Jason, when they are speaking about Morrisins take, not Wingman.

In my opinion both were a complete fail. Ginger Jason was as out of character as Morrisons take on Talia. And Wingman was crap since they brought Jason back in the Batfamily within a big event, in which he didn't had an important role, without giving it much focus or build up or coordinating it with Jasons own series and writer or what was going on in the main Batman title at the time.

----------


## Godlike13

I though Morrison's take was clever in that it had Jason try to create a competing brand against Batman. With his own marketing campaign and every thing. Some fans rejected the red hair, flamboyant costume, cop killing, and general ugliness of that Jason, which i get. It was extreme, and his Jason wasn't very pretty looking. Still i thought him trying to be Batman's competition was an interesting take. Jason stands out when he's opposition. Thats when fans were forced to pay attention to him. Now a days, as he is now, not so much.

----------


## Aahz

> I though Morrison's take was clever in that it had Jason try to create a competing brand against Batman.


 The thing is that Jason doesn't care about about the public opinion, he just does what he thinks should be done, he is at best interested in convincing other vigilantes from his brand of justice. 
The whole public opinion and internet voting stuff is more something Anarky would do.
A good use of Jason would have been something like Nobody did with Damian in "Born to Kill".




> Still i thought him trying to be Batman's competition was an interesting take. Jason stands out when he's opposition. Thats when fans were forced to pay attention to him. Now a days, as he is now, not so much.


That he doesn't stand out is for a big part due to the fact, the writers don't let him do much in the events and don't give him his own storylines. He is usually just there. Thats the same problem Tim had in many new 52 events.
Even his return to the Batfamily wasn't a major plot point in Death of the Family and Batman Inc.
Thats (to comeback to Bucky and how he is handled in the marvel movies) like they had just recruited Bucky as an Avenger in "Age of Ultron" and gave him a role as "important" as the ones of Falcon or Warmachine.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Winter Soldier is actually enjoyable to read and watch, while Jason is not. Morrison is the only writer to do anything good with him.


I could do well without Morrison's take on Jason. Except for Wingman, Morrison basically turned Jason into a really lame version of Rorschach, the red hair, the acne, the baldness in one panel (seriously, what?), the pill helmet with the blatant super villain costume, the way he was portrayed as a pathetic loser for Dick and Damian to beat up... It physically hurt me to read, I felt like apologizing for Jason's behavior and look. 

I am grateful to Morrison for creating Noh-Varr, who I adore now, but what he did to Jason's character makes me cringe.

----------


## Aioros22

> I though Morrison's take was clever in that it had Jason try to create a competing brand against Batman. With his own marketing campaign and every thing. Some fans rejected the red hair, flamboyant costume, cop killing, and general ugliness of that Jason, which i get. It was extreme, and his Jason wasn't very pretty looking. Still i thought him trying to be Batman's competition was an interesting take. Jason stands out when he's opposition. Thats when fans were forced to pay attention to him. Now a days, as he is now, not so much.


Morrison`s initial take works in the sense of being an experiment in Meta Commentary. I have the mind you could go Vertigo on Jason and write him aware of the 4th Wall but it draws the fine line of caricature. It takes a nuanced writer. What you describe next is a simple storytelling tool: you write a character as the direct competition of the main hero and naturally you force the audience to pay attention to him. Same with Winter Soldier. Same with Dick in a way, where his initial run in the reboot was the definition of just being there and suddently he opens up in a game that feels the antesis of what Batman does and suddently even the casuals look at _Grayson_ with other interest. But getting back to Jason especifically, he can actually keep being the opposite shade if only writers allow it. To some degree or another, Loedbell, Winnick, Greg Pak and Tomasi (and I`m not using UTRH for Winnick here), have done it. 

I think in a more linear way so can Grayson and in a similar way to Jason so can Bucky (they have in fact even done it in the cinematic timeline where Bucky isn`t the villain he looked a movie before but still keeps that energy where people are uncomfortable around him despite trusting him). 

As far as Bat crossovers go, most of where all the characters interacted were average and with little room to define the same. Not one of them stands out convincingly outside some moments here or there.

----------


## REAL

> That he doesn't stand out is for a big part due to the fact, the writers don't let him do much in the events and don't give him his own storylines. He is usually just there. Thats the same problem Tim had in many new 52 events.
> Even his return to the Batfamily wasn't a major plot point in Death of the Family and Batman Inc.


Dude, hardly anyone in the batfamily beside batman played an important role in events or have a storyline about them. Pretty much all the batfamily events were all about batman himself while the others were just there. Even Robin rises was just about him and his pain. 

The only batfamily events that didn't focus mainly on Batman were BRE and RW and both were pretty forgettable. BRE was all about Harper and RW was supposed to be a small arc about grayson, but dc forced king to make it an event and have both Jason and Tim be included in it. 

Dc is struggling with Jason because they can't write a good stories about antiheros even if their lives depend on it. It's one of dc major weaknesses and one of the areas that Marvel manged to surpass them in. And the writers struggle with Robins in general whenever the four of them together and they all get their fair share of bad moments and inconsistency. 

With that said, I still enjoyed Jason appearances by different writers and I know that there are other fans who also enjoyed it. There were actually fans who said that Jason and Tim moments were the only thing that made BRE worth buying, and others who started to like Jason because of his appearances in batfamily events.

----------


## Aahz

> Dude, hardly anyone in the batfamily beside batman played an important role in events or have a storyline about them. Pretty much all the batfamily events were all about batman himself while the others were just there. Even Robin rises was just about him and his pain.


Dick had a bigger part in Court of the Owls, RW and of course BRE, Batman Inc. and RW was at least kind of about Damian, Duke got his own storyline in Super Havey, Harper had even before the Eternals some panel time in Batman or Tec.

And in BE and BRE Jason was imo reduced to play a support/comic relief character for Barbara and Tim in their subplots. And Batman Inc. was iirc the only event where contributed something to solve the plot.

And i'm not saying should get major roles in all events, but at least him rejoining the Batfamily would have deserved to give him a bigger role in one event and should have been better coordinated with RHatO.




> There were actually fans who said that Jason and Tim moments were the only thing that made BRE worth buying, and others who started to like Jason because of his appearances in batfamily events.


For me Jason felt still very out of character in BRE. 
Only in his appearance in Batman/Superman I had the feeling that the writer got him and his interaction with the other Batfamily members right.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Most people refer to the ginger pill helmet Jason, when they are speaking about Morrisins take, not Wingman.


I was actually trying to forget about ginger and pill helmet Jason because it was just another case of the Bat office not knowing what to do with the character. The only redeeming quality of that at all was the introduction of Scarlet, which I thought was a step in the right direction of Jason. All the rest of it was a complete and utter waste of the pages it took to print it IMHO.




> I though Morrison's take was clever in that it had Jason try to create a competing brand against Batman. With his own marketing campaign and every thing. Some fans rejected the red hair, flamboyant costume, cop killing, and general ugliness of that Jason, which i get. It was extreme, and his Jason wasn't very pretty looking. Still i thought him trying to be Batman's competition was an interesting take. Jason stands out when he's opposition. Thats when fans were forced to pay attention to him. Now a days, as he is now, not so much.


I know a lot of people think Morrison clever but a good deal of the time I find him not to be very clever at all and this part of his Bat run is one of those times. The thing is back at that time Jason was ALWAYS trying to be Batman's competition one way or another so it wasn't a particularly new idea or even one that I felt Morrison took in an interesting direction. For me it was just more of the same and I don't really think it benefited the character much at all. From my perspective it just hammered home that the Bat office and it's writers and perhaps DC at large had no idea what to do with the character other than to trot him out whenever they needed a villain with closer ties to the Bat Family. Frankly that's not the way to develop a character unless your going to take such a direction seriously and actually expand upon it, which neither Morrison or DC seemed to want to do.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *I know a lot of people think Morrison clever but a good deal of the time I find him not to be very clever at all and this part of his Bat run is one of those times.* The thing is back at that time Jason was ALWAYS trying to be Batman's competition one way or another so it wasn't a particularly new idea or even one that I felt Morrison took in an interesting direction. For me it was just more of the same and I don't really think it benefited the character much at all. From my perspective it just hammered home that the Bat office and it's writers and perhaps DC at large had no idea what to do with the character other than to trot him out whenever they needed a villain with closer ties to the Bat Family. Frankly that's not the way to develop a character unless your going to take such a direction seriously and actually expand upon it, which neither Morrison or DC seemed to want to do.


I've felt the same about Morrison on different times so I couldn't help to compare the way both Lobdell and him used the online poll in their stories. With Morrison is just a "cute" nod about Jason's past that barely has a connection with the plot and even feels very out of character for Jason. Jason has always been pragmatic and one to cut to the heart of the matter so setting something like that just for what, perverse amusement? really took me out from the story.

With Lobdell on the other hand everything feels more organic (if someone would pull an insane scheme like that it would be JD) and it manages to both make a nod to Jason's past and serve an actual purpose within the story. I particularly enjoyed Jason lashing out and calling out the voters on how messed up they are by participating into the poll. Something that was long overdue.

----------


## Aioros22

> Dick had a bigger part in Court of the Owls, RW and of course BRE, Batman Inc. and RW was at least kind of about Damian, Duke got his own storyline in Super Havey, Harper had even before the Eternals some panel time in Batman or Tec.


I think some of these are naysayers. "Harper had some panel time even before Eternal"..yeah, and Jason was part of the original Robin War by Tomasi. So what?

Court of Owls just has to be somewhat frustrating to Dick Grayson fans. It is a story that you can see was initially brought up for Dick but what they end up with was a story where his importance was regelated to secondary status in detritment of Bruce who ends up doing the heavy lifting. 

It ends up being worse in the animation adaptation, as we know.

----------


## Rise

Talking about the pill hamlet.. 







 :Wink:

----------


## REAL

> talking about the pill hamlet..


Freaking heck, this seriously horrifying.

----------


## Rise

> Freaking heck, this seriously horrifying.


How about this then..

----------


## REAL

> How about this then..


How about no. 


It's seriously made me laugh tho.

----------


## Rise

Do you see how similar these two are, REAL?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

> Do you see how similar these two are, REAL?


Everytime I see the word "hail hydra" I laugh because of the fans dramatic reaction over the captain america issue.

----------


## byrd156

> I could do well without Morrison's take on Jason. Except for Wingman, Morrison basically turned Jason into a really lame version of Rorschach, the red hair, the acne, the baldness in one panel (seriously, what?), the pill helmet with the blatant super villain costume, the way he was portrayed as a pathetic loser for Dick and Damian to beat up... It physically hurt me to read, I felt like apologizing for Jason's behavior and look. 
> 
> I am grateful to Morrison for creating Noh-Varr, who I adore now, but what he did to Jason's character makes me cringe.


Jason only really works as a villain, the anti-hero thing has been awful so far. It makes no sense that Bruce would accept him as part of the family because of the whole killing thing. This blog post really sums up my feelings about Jason: http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/122402778443

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I've seen a lot of people use Jason killing as the main argument against his character but here's the thing _he barely kills these days_ rendering their point moot.

Through the whole run of RHATO the only humans he killed were the merc in Kandaq to save Roy, Suzie Zu (and he even offered the chance to walk away a third time despite Zu holding hostage the entire child wing of Gotham's hospital), Xiao Loong (and he asked Jason to kill him), the group of terrorists trying to blow Washington in issue 32, the bunch of criminals in the Future's End issue and the venom enhanced mercs in issue 35. Out of 43 issues Jason only killed in 6 (with one of them  being an elseworld of sorts) and always to save someone his life or his friends' or because they crossed too many lines.

In RH/A he only killed Palette and the Iron Rule. Both times something he did just to save Roy. Meanwhile in crossovers Jason never uses lethal force.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It makes no sense that Bruce would accept him as part of the family because of the whole killing thing.


And yet Bruce accepts Damian into the family even after he beheaded a minor villain and attempted to kill Tim. Both characters are killers and for Bruce to accept one of them but not the other is hypocritical of him regardless of whether they are following his code or not.

----------


## Aahz

> And yet Bruce accepts Damian into the family even after he beheaded a minor villain and attempted to kill Tim.


And later on killed Noboby.

The Batfamily had also never had problems to team up with Katana, who also kills (she did it iirc even during the new 52 Birds of Prey) and traps the souls of her victims in her sword. And other new 52 Bird of Prey members (like Starling, Strix and Ivy) were iirc also not against killing. 

Midnighter is (probably, I haven't read his series) also a killer, as are Tiger, Helena and the other Spyral members. Despite this everybody wants them to stick around in Dicks series.

----------


## Godlike13

Damain killed because he didn't know any better, its what he was taught. They don't accept him killing but are regardless responsible for him and its on them to try to teach him that it's not ok. They don't accept killing becuse they accepted a 10 year old kid who was brought up by a family of assassins who bred him to conquer the world. The whole point of taking him in was to teach him otherwise. That not being easy just makes it interesting. 
This isn't the same as Jason. Nor is it the same as Spyral members, and organization Dick ultimately opposed and wasn't really in a position to contest how it's operatives work (though he did what he could, and it was an issue he did have to deal with). It also isn't the same as Midnighter who wasn't trained by Batman and hasn't worked with Batman. He's worked with and against Dick, and when he does even he knows he's not accepting of killing. That conflict though is part of what makes his and Dick's chemistry interesting. Which is why some people want him to stick around in Dick's series. They have a fun rapport. One not made up of acceptance.

Them being ok with Jason killing, or Jason not killing are both compromises the hurt both sides and disregards part of the conflict that made Jason's return interesting. Im not a fan of either. I think both are boring and lazy.

----------


## Aahz

> Them being ok with Jason killing, or Jason not killing are both compromises the hurt both sides and disregards part of the conflict that made Jason's return interesting. Im not a fan of it at all. I think its boring and lazy.


But thats a problem with the writers nor with the character. Pap hadled the dynamic between Dick and Jason in Batman/Superman for example much better than the Batoffice guys.

And you could easily handle Jason similar to Midnighter or Tiger, their personalities are not so different.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason only really works as a villain, the anti-hero thing has been awful so far. It makes no sense that Bruce would accept him as part of the family because of the whole killing thing. This blog post really sums up my feelings about Jason: http://atopfourthwall.tumblr.com/post/122402778443


I understand this response in a emotional level (of the poster in question that is) but objetively it got holes. Huntress _was_ a killer. And there you are claiming it makes no sense for Jason being anti hero where most of his material after returning is exacly in that role. If you answer with not liking any of the stories compromised of that material, that`s a perrogative, but I find it easy to dissagree. There`s more than fine material with him in that role. More than fine. 

it would make Batman look weak if yes, Jason was written as a "petulant adolescence", but he _isn`_t. He isn`t written as being entitled either. He`s been written as someone gradually wanting to move on and grow. Sure, he will kill if he has to. He was shaped by fire and answers in kind. But it`s the how he choses to use the fire that matters most. Just like Winter Soldier, at the end of the day, they do what? They target the badder guys and help save the world. That`s the reason Cap and Bat give them their hand. There`s something good there, something that still makes them choose the greater good. That`s why Cable was accepted by the X-Men. That`s why Deadpoll became popular dark comedy. That`s why Blueberry became one of the best European Western despite starting as a bloody racist. That`s why the Man with No Name or Mad Max are enjoyable campfire myth. That`s why tales of Jedi who struggle with the dark side resonate more. That`s why we can`t help but root for the Driver. That`s why Jack Sparrow is met with simpathy despite being a backstabbing lying prick. 

To me Batman actually shows _strenght_ of moral fiber in still believing in someone who has good in them despite the darkness. That`s the anti hero. And that`s why the Titans still had Raven in their ranks after she gave herself to Trigon.

Make no mistake, he shouldn`t show up as much with them. But as far as them asking help when things get rough? He`s the man for the job. And at the same time he can still offer the other side of the coin to the straight jackets in Dick and Bruce. The franchise is more versatile if they are mutually challenged (physically/mentally/morally) and in this, he`s exactly the black sheep. He`s the uneasy guy that can give his life to propect you or the guy who does it by killing the agressor. 

Just think about all the examples I listed. They all have bad streaks. They all have darkness. They also have good. But the common thread? In one way or the other, _they fight it_. That`s why they resonate with us, readers, they are figthers in more than one way.

_mic drop_

----------


## Aahz

> That`s why Blueberry became one of the best European Western despite starting as a bloody racist.


But his past was afaik only revealed after the first issues were already published. (And the series is anyway from the 60s)

----------


## Aioros22

What one should ask themselves is why did they end up revealing he used to be a bloody racist. They didn`t want him a straight jacket, that`s why. They wanted uneasiness. They wanted conflit. And just in the manner that still made him popular or resonating among readers who want to read..heroes. 

The same with all the others. 

In case someone mentions how Max wasn`t broken until the gang mauled his family, he actually mentions the "bad streak" he carried before that event even happened. He left the Force because he was afraid of becoming like those who prey on the roads whereas his superior officer kept telling him to use that bad streak against them. To be.....a hero. 

_another mic drop._

----------


## Aioros22

In a very, *very* broad sense it`s like this last issue of RHAA. 

Jason shoots down the Iron Rule? (aka: the bad guys of the story): _Omg, he shot them all! Wtf!_ 

But we know why he did it. We know what motivated him in doing so.

Jason making the harsh decision to protect someone: _Wow, he actually does empathically care for others!_

Roy may be oblivious to his true intent and may think he`s just being rotten, but _we_ readers know better. We know why and in what way Jason is actually protecting and how much he cares for the guy. 


Fictional anti-heroes, folks. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bNNW8QWaQI

----------


## REAL

Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth Variant:



> 


I am really not fond of Red Hood's design so far, but maybe Soy can make it look good. 

Artemis looks surprisingly young here. 

Bizarro looks a little bit cartoonish.

----------


## REAL

*Aioros22*: Yup, Jason is antihero and he works best as antihero. 

He can be a villain, but that doesn't mean it's the best or the only option for him.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Damain killed because he didn't know any better, its what he was taught. They don't accept him killing but are regardless responsible for him and its on them to try to teach him that it's not ok. They don't accept killing becuse they accepted a 10 year old kid who was brought up by a family of assassins who bred him to conquer the world. The whole point of taking him in was to teach him otherwise. That not being easy just makes it interesting. 
> This isn't the same as Jason. .


Regardless of whether or not either character knew better or not the fact remains that both characters are killers whether in the past or currently. For Bruce to be accepting of one without the other is, at least to my mind, hypocritical of him because it implies that Damian is worthy of being saved and of being taught how to change while trying to do so with Jason is a waste of time. That's a pretty ludicrous assumption in my book given how non-lethal he's been when working with the Bats in recent events.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth Variant:
> 
> 
> 
> I am really not fond of Red Hood's design so far, but maybe Soy can make it look good. 
> 
> Artemis looks surprisingly young here. 
> 
> Bizarro looks a little bit cartoonish.


Pretty cute variant although Bengal is such a weird choice given the book is being promoted as being darker than the old RHATO and RH/A

I'm digging it though. The best part is not Handsome Squidward helmet!

I found this picture floating in the net, no idea where it came from but I think it could be Soy's art.

----------


## REAL

> Pretty cute variant although Bengal is such a weird choice given the book is being promoted as being darker than the old RHATO and RH/A
> 
> I'm digging it though. 
> 
> I found this picture floating in the net, no idea where it came from but I think it could be Soy's art.


This variant by Matteo Scalers and here a bigger version:






> The best part is not Handsome Squidward helmet!


What has been seen, can't be unseen. 

It's all because of *Rise*.

----------


## Aioros22

> This variant by Matteo Scalers and here a bigger version:


Love it!

The variants do seem to give the impression that his gloves don`t have the metal plates as well, but here...I think there`s a glimpse. In the other it may simply be perspective, but I hope artists don`t start to Forget to draw it because it`s easy not to. 

Such a minor detail and yet it adds up to striking power in hand to hand.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way loving the design. 

The top half, with or without the logo is already iconic to the character. We have the clean Hood back (which should have never gone away because why?) and the lower half with the shinguards and metal plates on boots and the gloves on top remind me of Shredder. 

Just badass.

----------


## oasis1313

I really like Bizzaro and Artemis as Jason's new partners.  MUCH better than Roy and Kory.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I really like Bizzaro and Artemis as Jason's new partners.  MUCH better than Roy and Kory.


I'm still trying to wrap my head around having Bizzaro on the team in the first place honestly.  I'm willing to see where it goes mind you but I'm just not sure how it'll work out. It doesn't help that I generally have never cared for the character and I'd have rather this book was a solo title instead.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm still trying to wrap my head around having Bizzaro on the team in the first place honestly.  I'm willing to see where it goes mind you but I'm just not sure how it'll work out. It doesn't help that I generally have never cared for the character and I'd have rather this book was a solo title instead.


I think it'll be cool.  I've always loved Bizzaro, Roy was a Titan first, and Kory is never used as much of anything besides The Girl Hostage.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think it'll be cool.  I've always loved Bizzaro, Roy was a Titan first, and Kory *is never used as much of anything besides The Girl Hostage.*


She bailed the boys from trouble again and again in RHATO and Jason's friendship with Roy is one of the best developed relationship in recent comics.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think it'll be cool.  I've always loved Bizzaro, Roy was a Titan first, and Kory is never used as much of anything besides The Girl Hostage.


I suppose that's where our opinions differ. I'm indifferent to Bizzaro and I'm questioning his inclusion on the team much as I was questioning Starfire's  when I first heard that she would be on the original team. Now it could turn out to be cool and Lobdell could write him well enough that I would start to care about him but at the moment his inclusion means that one third of the team is uninteresting to me right out of the gate, which is bad. Now hopefully Lobdell does something interesting with the team and with the story because that might offset my complete disinterest in Bizzaro if not get me actually interested in him. I'm actually banking on it.

----------


## Aahz

Since he managed to make something interesting with Jokers Daugther (who was a really crappy character before) I think there is good chance that he can make Bizzaro somehow work. 
Ans I would assume that this he has at least characters he wants to use, with the original outlaws I always had the feeling that it was an editorial decision how was on the team.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So what were you guys thoughts on _Last Crusade_?

I really enjoyed it and I thought it was a lot closer in tone to Miller's work in year one than DKR, something really fitting I guess. However, the whole thing feels off. For all the advertisement about revealing why Bruce would retire as Batman, I couldn't help but feel like we just got half of the story here. Miller and Azzarello spend most of the issue developing Bruce's relationship with Jason with his death pretty much being tacked at the end. The plot perfectly develops the scene and is easy to understand the reasons behind Bruce's retirement but still feels like the story was cut short. 

I was very pleased with the way Azzarello and Miller handled Jason. By far my favorite take on his time as Robin in recent memory.

Unlike ASBR where Bruce and Dick were balls to the wall psychotic, Bruce is a lot more reasonable and level headed here and while Jason is violent as hell, reckless and cocky; he proves himself to be worth of the mantle by saving Bruce more than once through the story. A neat touch is within story Jason's brutality is acknowledged as being exactly what Bruce trained him to do, not a byproduct of Jason's frail psyche or inner darkness as the preview could've lead to believe. In fact, aside of his brutality Jason is a pretty endearing character all the way through. In this story you can truly buy a father and son relationship between he and Bruce. something that I found amusing is that Bruce intended Jason to take over him as Batman but since Jason is still too young, Bruce would remain supporting him for a while, providing him with info and advice, mirroring the dynamic he would have with Terry in Batman Beyond.

I'm not really a fan of Romita's work but he delivers a stellar job here, very superior to his previous stint on Superman. If the delays were the reason for his improvement, then it was worth it.

----------


## Aahz

> I think some of these are naysayers. "Harper had some panel time even before Eternal"..yeah, and Jason was part of the original Robin War by Tomasi. So what?


But Harper had (like in Eternal) an actual role in that story, and helped Batman in several ways.
Jason was sofar in every Batman event, but apart from his confrontation with Talia in batman inc. (where Kathy steals him the show in the end) he didn't had any major contribution or scenes and showings that let him stand out in any of them. More the contary he usually gets quite abysmal showings, needs constantly to be rescued, and is probably the only Batfamily member that didn't managed to take down single relevant villain on his own in and event (outside of his tie ins).




> Court of Owls just has to be somewhat frustrating to Dick Grayson fans. It is a story that you can see was initially brought up for Dick but what they end up with was a story where his importance was regelated to secondary status in detritment of Bruce who ends up doing the heavy lifting.


 He still got quite a big subplot in that story. Much bigger than the other tie ins.
He even got several flash back stories about his time as Robin (in the current Justice League Title for example). While Tim and Jason got non sofar appart from their origin.

----------


## REAL

> So what were you guys thoughts on _Last Crusade_?
> 
> I really enjoyed it and I thought it was a lot closer in tone to Miller's work in year one than DKR, something really fitting I guess. However, the whole thing feels off. For all the advertisement about revealing why Bruce would retire as Batman, I couldn't help but feel like we just got half of the story here. Miller and Azzarello spend most of the issue developing Bruce's relationship with Jason with his death pretty much being tacked at the end. The plot perfectly develops the scene and is easy to understand the reasons behind Bruce's retirement but still feels like the story was cut short. 
> 
> I was very pleased with the way Azzarello and Miller handled Jason. By far my favorite take on his time as Robin in recent memory.
> 
> Unlike ASBR where Bruce and Dick were balls to the wall psychotic, Bruce is a lot more reasonable and level headed here and while Jason is violent as hell, reckless and cocky; he proves himself to be worth of the mantle by saving Bruce more than once through the story. A neat touch is within story Jason's brutality is acknowledged as being exactly what Bruce trained him to do, not a byproduct of Jason's frail psyche or inner darkness as the preview could've lead to believe. In fact, aside of his brutality Jason is a pretty endearing character all the way through. In this story you can truly buy a father and son relationship between he and Bruce. something that I found amusing is that Bruce intended Jason to take over him as Batman but since Jason is still too young, Bruce would remain supporting him for a while, providing him with info and advice, mirroring the dynamic he would have with Terry in Batman Beyond.
> 
> I'm not really a fan of Romita's work but he delivers a stellar job here, very superior to his previous stint on Superman. If the delays were the reason for his improvement, then it was worth it.


I agree with everything you said. This issue was soiled and definitely worth the wait. 

Here what Miller said about Jason in his recent interview:
_"Miller: I could only see Jason as a guy with an awful lot of talent, absolutely brilliant, but a massive inferiority complex, out to prove himself, up against someone who had already — I mean, he was a successor. Any successor has a problem with that. There's a defiance and even a reckless enthusiasm. It's dangerous."_

----------


## Joker

I thought it perfectly outlined why Bruce retires after this. I agree that this felt like half the story, because Bruce clearly goes after Joker and, I sort of feel like that should be shown, too. That's part of this. That's, to me, the Last Crusade.

----------


## Aioros22

Haven`t grab this yet but from early reviews this is easily the highlight of the DKIII wave and the best work from either RomitaJr and Miller in awhile. High grading all around, kudos also to inks and color. So far I`m enjoying everything I`ve heard or read about it and just can`t wait to get my hands on this baby!

----------


## Aioros22

> I agree with everything you said. This issue was soiled and definitely worth the wait. 
> 
> Here what Miller said about Jason in his recent interview:
> _"Miller: I could only see Jason as a guy with an awful lot of talent, absolutely brilliant, but a massive inferiority complex, out to prove himself, up against someone who had already — I mean, he was a successor. Any successor has a problem with that. There's a defiance and even a reckless enthusiasm. It's dangerous."_


Brilliant. He hilglights the positives that were there at the time of his conception with the major drawback in terms of character - the need to prove himself. What an irony in Miller`s verse case, especially with being groomed to suceed Bruce one day. What could have been! Miller gets it and I am trilled he didn`t go with the easy fallacy of one writer or two in depicting Jason as anything other than raw potential. I just have to read it closely and make my own review but...whinning move all around sirs  :Wink:  :Cool: 

I like Azzarelo as much as the next guy but it`s just a trill having a defined Miller voice here. 

This is a one shot, isn`t it? I`ve seen a review title it "Last Crusade #1" and I get the felling it`s because of the abrupt ending. 

Pls miller/Romita do more of these

----------


## Joker

If there's a #2 they haven't advertised it.

----------


## Aahz

> This is a one shot, isn`t it? I`ve seen a review title it "Last Crusade #1" and I get the felling it`s because of the abrupt ending.


Nowadays every title gets a number.  Afaik this is supposed to be a one shot.

Its a good written story, but the end is really little bit abrupt, and the Joker isn't even doing much. And you don't even see his Millerverse henchmen like Bruno.
I would have liked to get a little bit more focus on Jason. Technically it's not even clear which Jason this is (pre crisis circus kid or post crisis street kid). And I would have really preferred a more heroic death, not again just disobeying and walking into a trap.

----------


## Rise

> It's all because of *Rise*.


Don't blame me, blame the artists! 

Btw, REAL. I read one of your old posts about pre crisis Jason and I'm really curious about Jason's time as Robin after reading TLC. So, is it worth reading? Or should I simply skip it and only read post crisis Jason's run?

----------


## REAL

> Don't blame me, blame the artists! 
> 
> Btw, REAL. I read one of your old posts about pre crisis Jason and I'm really curious about Jason's time as Robin after reading TLC. So, is it worth reading? Or should I simply skip it and only read post crisis Jason's run?


Well, I would say give him a chance because I do like circus!Jason.

His run was fun with a lot of good stories and memorable moments, and what I like best about it is that he didn't become robin immediately. It's actually take a long arc before batman allowed him to be his partner, and another long arc before batman finally stopped freaking out whenever he lost sight of him. 

He was given the chance to learn, grow, be mature and develop his own relationships with others like Amanda, Rena, Alfred, his odd friendship with bullock, his love-hate relationship with Selina,and the deep parental bond he has with Bruce and Nocturna. 

I honestly think that a lot of people don't give the early 80s writers enough credits because they did a good job in making him different person. I actually could easily tell which one is Jason and which one is dick if you show me an old panel of circus!Jason's and Dick's stories. 

Also, early 80s Bruce Wayne is my favorite version of him because he wasn't dark and grim, but playful, fun and really a good father.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nowadays every title gets a number.  Afaik this is supposed to be a one shot.
> 
> Its a good written story, but the end is really little bit abrupt, and the Joker isn't even doing much. And you don't even see his Millerverse henchmen like Bruno.
> I would have liked to get a little bit more focus on Jason. Technically it's not even clear which Jason this is (pre crisis circus kid or post crisis street kid). And I would have really preferred a more heroic death, not again just disobeying and walking into a trap.


Saving his mother is heroic, regardless the execution Starlin had forced the readers into. This looks to be more (or should I say, differently so) brutally tragic because the one downfall he didn`t end up maturing from. From what I read (Ill give my opinion soon) this seems full with characterization for Jason and Bruce, so in that regard I should be satisfied. He also seems to save Bruce and do his job as Robin against the other villains. 

This being Pre or Post is not something I`d expect Miller to dwell into because it doesn`t matter unless you`re a continuity buff and it wasn`t released in the decade where it would matter most. It`s Miller`s Jason, with whatever characteristics he decided to highlight. 

From the preview alone I already became a fan of the small tibits in the classic costume, like the different belt and colar.

----------


## Rise

> Well, I would say give him a chance because I do like circus!Jason.
> 
> His run was fun with a lot of good stories and memorable moments, and what I like best about it is that* he didn't become robin immediately. It's actually take a long arc before batman allowed him to be his partner, and another long arc before batman finally stopped freaking out whenever he lost sight of him.* 
> 
> He was given the chance to learn, grow, be mature and develop his own relationships with others like *Amanda*, *Rena*, Alfred, his odd friendship with bullock, his love-hate relationship with Selina,and the deep parental bond he has with Bruce and *Nocturna*. 
> 
> I honestly think that a lot of people don't give the early 80s writers enough credits because they did a good job in making him different person. I actually could easily tell which one is Jason and which one is dick if you show me an old panel of circus!Jason's and Dick's stories. 
> 
> Also, early 80s Bruce Wayne is my favorite version of him because he wasn't dark and grim, but playful, fun and really a *good father*.


Thanks, Real! You got me interested, especially the bolded parts. 

Why Batman didn't allow him to be his partner? 

Who are these guys you mentioned? 

Batman was actually a good father?

----------


## Aahz

> Saving his mother is heroic, regardless the execution Starlin had forced the readers into.


But he didn't save his mother in the end. A situation were really chooses to die to save somebody would be more heroic.

----------


## AJpyro

> But he didn't save his mother in the end. A situation were really chooses to die to save somebody would be more heroic.


He tried. And that's all that matters.

----------


## kaimaciel

I didn't like it. Alfred's words about Jason lacking empathy and how they portraying smiling while viciously attacking criminals, seems like they are using Jason as a bad example to show how a "worthy sucessor" should be (Carrie Kelly). Also, the set up for the death was very underwhelming.

I was expecting something emotional, so far I only feel angry.

----------


## Aioros22

> But he didn't save his mother in the end. A situation were really chooses to die to save somebody would be more heroic.


...

You mean like the part where it`s _also_ clear he threw himself towards the explosion in order to shield her.




> I didn't like it. Alfred's words about Jason lacking empathy and how they portraying smiling while viciously attacking criminals, seems like they are using Jason as a bad example to show how a "worthy sucessor" should be (Carrie Kelly). Also, the set up for the death was very underwhelming.
> 
> I was expecting something emotional, so far I only feel angry.


Anger is an emotion  :Wink:  From what I can tell the same Alfred later says all Jason needs is to hone his abilties to maturity, like Bruce end up doing. Carrie had that chance, he didn`t. 

We all knew how this would end and Carrie is Miller`s baby. It`s _his_ Robin. Dick was the throaway, Jason could have suceeded but didn`t and Carrie is the one who does it. This also seems a Meta commentary in that the ones who weren`t handypicked by the old man are the ones who didn`t share a tragic outling /being fired/shot/dying/missing in action. What does that personally tell about Bruce? Carrie made it because she`s the _least_ like Bruce. 

All in all I`m still glad we have Miller writting. Good or bad he`s not afraid to show it. He keeps saying it`s not a Superman POV story and thus why superfans feel outraged by it but he doesn`t paint Bruce as a flower either. He`s one flawed individual alright.

----------


## Aioros22

Regarding those last pages...

The nature of the threat was the hardest pill to swallow when I first heard about it. The comic fan in me is used to big or well defined send offs, but silence can scream louder than an explosion - just read Joker`s dialogue boxes in the fact. Was Miller conveying that even a soldier can survive bombs like say killer Croc and Ivy but, as usual with real life, you don`t go out with a methaphorical bang?

----------


## Aahz

> You mean like the part where it`s _also_ clear he threw himself towards the explosion in order to shield her.


It is still after running into a trap. I would really like to get a more glorious death for him.
But it is at least better the dying after falling with a head on a rock.



Btw. I really would like to get one "Earth" (comics, video game, animated, what ever) where Jason doesn't die. There is imo no reason to repeat A Death in the Family in every adaptation.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I didn't like it. Alfred's words about Jason lacking empathy and how they portraying smiling while viciously attacking criminals, seems like they are using Jason as a bad example to show how a "worthy sucessor" should be (Carrie Kelly). Also, the set up for the death was very underwhelming.
> 
> I was expecting something emotional, so far I only feel angry.


You have to read the scene in the context of the Millerverse. Jason lacking empathy and brutality is not a flaw but an advantage. And Alfred's dialogue was specifically drawing parallels between Jason and Bruce with Alfred fully believing in Jason as the one able to carry on Bruce's legacy (unlike Dick). 

As emotional? This is one of the few stories where you an actual father-son relationship between Jason and Bruce is properly developed Making the end even more poignant and sad. Contrast it with Tomasi's AK:Genesis where they play Jason viciousness and shortcomings straight, just to make clear he is and always was primed to become a villain.




> It is still after running into a trap. I would really like to get a more glorious death for him.
> But it is at least better the dying after falling with a head on a rock.


Dying for a woman that clearly doesn't give a damn about it just because is the right thing to do is pretty damn glorious for me.




> Btw. I really would like to get one "Earth" (comics, video game, animated, what ever) where Jason doesn't die. There is imo no reason to repeat A Death in the Family in every adaptation.


It happened in Countdown. Earth 25 IIRC Jason grew to take the Batman's mantle.

----------


## Aahz

> It happened in Countdown. Earth 25 IIRC Jason grew to take the Batman's mantle.


I meant something where you get more than just one story.

----------


## Aioros22

> It is still after running into a trap.


Which got nothing to do with his death being heroic. 




> Btw. I really would like to get one "Earth" (comics, video game, animated, what ever) where Jason doesn't die. There is imo no reason to repeat A Death in the Family in every adaptation.


Countodown and Arkham-verse. Batman Beyond as well since "Tim" is pretty much Jason Todd with a different name to bridge it out. 

There`s no reason, no, but _this_  is a different animal. It`s the prequel of the classic where Miller made the journey count more than the endgame.

----------


## REAL

> Thanks, Real! You got me interested, especially the bolded parts. 
> 
> Why Batman didn't allow him to be his partner? 
> 
> Who are these guys you mentioned? 
> 
> Batman was actually a good father?


Not gonna answer any of these questions because you will find out yourself.     

Now, go and read about circus!Jason and experience the 80s.

----------


## Aahz

> Countodown and Arkham-verse. Batman Beyond as well since "Tim" is pretty much Jason Todd with a different name to bridge it out.


Arkham-Verse and DCAU-Tim had still their version of "A Death in the Family" that ended their Robin career early, even if they didn't die. DCAU comes actually close since it happened after the show was over, unfortunately they gave him the wrong name.
In Tiny Titans he also didn't die.

But seriously there are tons of lesser known verses were they killed him very quickly Amalgam, Doom that came to Gotham, a World without Young Justice, Bombshells.




> Now, go and read about circus!Jason and experience the 80s.


Read it imo it is as good as Tims early stuff, and better than most stuff about Dicks time as Robin.

----------


## Rise

> Not gonna answer any of these questions because you will find out yourself.     
> 
> Now, go and read about circus!Jason and experience the 80s.


Not cool, REAL  :Mad: 

And I did and I'm so confused. Why Jason was blonde? I thought he was a red headed?

And the 80s experience is surreal.

----------


## REAL

> Not cool, REAL 
> 
> And I did and I'm so confused. Why Jason was blonde? *I thought he was a red headed?*
> 
> And the 80s experience is surreal.


That's just Morrison being Morrison. Just ignore it. 

How far you get in the run?

----------


## AJpyro

> *It is still after running into a trap.* I would really like to get a more glorious death for him.
> But it is at least better the dying after falling with a head on a rock.
> 
> 
> 
> Btw. I really would like to get one "Earth" (comics, video game, animated, what ever) where Jason doesn't die. There is imo no reason to repeat A Death in the Family in every adaptation.


Don't heroes always do that?

----------


## Rise

> That's just Morrison being Morrison. Just ignore it. 
> 
> How far you get in the run?


Here

----------


## REAL

> Here


The beginning of the custody battle arc. 

Nocturna play a major role in this arc and it will answer your question.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Something that has been bugging me looking back at _"The Last Crusade"_ is how exactly fits Bruce's retirement in the narrative. LC stress again and again that Bruce is wary of retirement because he's fearful of a change to his status quo and because he believes Batman is still needed, thus his grooming of Jason to take the mantle. With that in mind, Jason's death seems to me like it would only strengthen Bruce's determination to don't retire since is clearly a mission only Bruce is able to tackle.

----------


## Rise

REAL, I have finished reading Circus Jason's run and.. 


Jason was such a brat, childish and kinda naive, but I become really fond of him and I felt as proud as Batman whenever he do  something awesome or mature. 

80s Julia Pennyworth was really different compared to Snyder's Penny two and I like her more. The moment she decided to use the Pennyworth surname in her article and Alfred reaction was really emotional. I also liked her friendship with Vickie. 

Jason and Bullock being buddies was really odd thing to see, but I absolutely loved their partnership and how the two of them solved crimes together.      

Nocturna was such a mysterious and interesting character. I really enjoyed having her around and her relationship with Jason was seriously heartwarming.

Jason and Selina love-hate relationship was hilarious. I really laughed on how things got too bad between the two of them to the point that even GPD decided to interfere and how Batman set them up together in a mission so that they hopefully get along. 

Jason being so crazy about Rena and Alfred being worried about that while Batman was just "he is young, he will get over it" was also hilarious. The moment when Jason manged to convince Rena to not get herself involved in drugs by telling her "you don't need drugs because looking at you makes me high" was GOLD. 

Batman was indeed a good father and there were so many good moments between him and Jason. Like how Batman always make sure to talk Jason after the two of them get into big argument, how he ignored the bat signal because getting Jason back after he was taken from him by the court was more important to him, how considering he was of Jason's feeling and how he tried his best to live up to Jason's expectations of him, and this moment..



Overall, the early 80s was such simple and fun time and indeed worth the read.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Indeed those times were fantastic. Is a real shame most people only think in the unpleasant brat that Starlin turned him into in the leading months to DITF

----------


## godisawesome

That got me in the mood to track down somebody's list of great pre-death stories; it includes a bunch of your stuff, and I'm going to enjoy perusing it digitally.

It also reminded me of "The Diplomat's Son." The tale of Felipe Garzonas, and his not so tragic transformation into street pizza, is one of the mythos moments for Jason. So how do you guys interpret his and Jason's final confrontations? Push or fall?

I'm actually a proponent of fall; while it plays into the mythos of Jason being the "bad boy with a temper", I think it plays into his personality during the time period to actually not kill Felipe. Now, I also think it's possible that when Felipe starts to fall back, Jason has a moment of hesitation in moving to save him that dooms the boy, but the look he gives Bruce is more one of shame than one of dishonesty.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That got me in the mood to track down somebody's list of great pre-death stories; it includes a bunch of your stuff, and I'm going to enjoy perusing it digitally.
> 
> It also reminded me of "The Diplomat's Son." The tale of Felipe Garzonas, and his not so tragic transformation into street pizza, is one of the mythos moments for Jason. So how do you guys interpret his and Jason's final confrontations? Push or fall?
> 
> I'm actually a proponent of fall; while it plays into the mythos of Jason being the "bad boy with a temper", I think it plays into his personality during the time period to actually not kill Felipe. Now, I also think it's possible that when Felipe starts to fall back, Jason has a moment of hesitation in moving to save him that dooms the boy, but the look he gives Bruce is more one of shame than one of dishonesty.


I actually own a physical copy of that one that's in decent shape. I'm likewise a proponent of fall. I never thought Jay deliberately pushed Felipe or that he went there to actually kill him. To confront him certainly and to probably beat the ever loving crap outta him sure but I'm not certain that he was planning to kill the scumbag. I believe that Jason spooked him and that his fall was an accident. Jason himself may have even froze for a moment when Felipe started falling in a quandary about whether to save the guy or not. That's how I read it back in the day anyway and it reads the same to me now.

----------


## REAL

Honestly glad that you enjoyed it, *Rise*. 

I also enjoyed the simplicity of the early 80s and they were indeed fun. And seeing Jason grow into his role as robin instead of being thrown into it was of the reasons that made this run enjoyable.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That got me in the mood to track down somebody's list of great pre-death stories; it includes a bunch of your stuff, and I'm going to enjoy perusing it digitally.
> 
> It also reminded me of "The Diplomat's Son." The tale of Felipe Garzonas, and his not so tragic transformation into street pizza, is one of the mythos moments for Jason. So how do you guys interpret his and Jason's final confrontations? Push or fall?
> 
> I'm actually a proponent of fall; while it plays into the mythos of Jason being the "bad boy with a temper", I think it plays into his personality during the time period to actually not kill Felipe. Now, I also think it's possible that when Felipe starts to fall back, Jason has a moment of hesitation in moving to save him that dooms the boy, but the look he gives Bruce is more one of shame than one of dishonesty.





> I actually own a physical copy of that one that's in decent shape. I'm likewise a proponent of fall. I never thought Jay deliberately pushed Felipe or that he went there to actually kill him. To confront him certainly and to probably beat the ever loving crap outta him sure but I'm not certain that he was planning to kill the scumbag. I believe that Jason spooked him and that his fall was an accident. Jason himself may have even froze for a moment when Felipe started falling in a quandary about whether to save the guy or not. That's how I read it back in the day anyway and it reads the same to me now.


I also believe it was a fall, but Jason's reputation as Robin has been so tarnished by the consant revisionism modern writers have indulged over the years that you get people fully convinced that the intent was to have Jason killing.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I also believe it was a fall, but Jason's reputation as Robin has been so tarnished by the consant revisionism modern writers have indulged over the years that you get people fully convinced that the intent was to have Jason killing.


True.  Still whatever those revisionist modern writers may imply I still don't believe Jason at that point would have considered murdering the guy intentionally. Clearly he was angry about the entire situation and Gloria's suicide probably hit a little to close to home for him but I still think he would have just beat Felipe bloody under ordinary circumstances. (That is to say if the bat writers of the time hadn't been on a campaign to remove both Jason and Robin from Batman comics.)

 So it was an accidental death in my mind because not only did Robin's appearance startle Felipe, who may have been a bit tipsy at the time, causing him to fall but Jason himself would have been emotionally compromised at that point having come straight from Gloria's as he did. That means that when Felipe started to fall he may have hesitated or perhaps he even froze.

----------


## Rise

> Honestly glad that you enjoyed it, *Rise*. 
> 
> I also enjoyed the simplicity of the early 80s and they were indeed fun. And seeing Jason grow into his role as robin instead of being thrown into it was of the reasons that made this run enjoyable.


I loved how Jason earned the Robin mantle and the moment when he was really fed up with Batman's overprotectiveness and told him "Do you want me as a partner or not? If you don't, then I will never wear this uniform again. If you do, then act like it and trust me." in the Calender Man arc was really good. 

Btw, what do you about the popular theroy about how Jason is actually the Joker in DCEU?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

> Btw, what do you about the popular theroy about how Jason is actually the Joker in DCEU?

----------


## Aioros22

> I also believe it was a fall, but Jason's reputation as Robin has been so tarnished by the consant revisionism modern writers have indulged over the years that you get people fully convinced that the intent was to have Jason killing.


The more interesting aspect of the scene for me is whether Jason would have managed to save the guy in freefall or not if he wanted. That`s where I feel the moment is stronger, because past that all he wanted was to make Felipe beg for what he did, which makes him right. He spooked him.

----------


## Aioros22

> I loved how Jason earned the Robin mantle and the moment when he was really fed up with Batman's overprotectiveness and told him "Do you want me as a partner or not? If you don't, then I will never wear this uniform again. If you do, then act like it and trust me." in the Calender Man arc was really good. 
> 
> Btw, what do you about the popular theroy about how Jason is actually the Joker in DCEU?


If there was a place where that theory would hit the personal cojones outta me would be in Miller`s Verse...and they kind of did that in Batman Beyond.

----------


## Aahz

> True.  Still whatever those revisionist modern writers may imply I still don't believe Jason at that point would have considered murdering the guy intentionally. Clearly he was angry about the entire situation and Gloria's suicide probably hit a little to close to home for him but I still think he would have just beat Felipe bloody under ordinary circumstances. (That is to say if the bat writers of the time hadn't been on a campaign to remove both Jason and Robin from Batman comics.)


What the people always forget is that when other Batfamily members were about to kill someone (or to get killed) usually some else intervenes and prevents it. (Or it was retconed or they came back to live somehow)

In one of the first post crisis stories Jason ironically stopped Batman from killing the Joker, after Joker brainwashed Catwomen, or in "Robin III: Cry of the Huntress" Huntress stopes Tim from killing a Russian mobster, when he thought that they killed Ariana Dzerchenko (that series and his other two miniseres also showed that Tim could be as reckless and disobedient as Jason).

----------


## Rise

Why not? Jason is the king of Bat-titles. 

Robin 
Red Hood 
Batman 
Red Robin 
Nightwing 
Wingman 
Arkham Knight 
And there was a rumor about how Jason was supposed to be Hush, but the writer changed his mind last moment. 

The "Everyone is Jason Todd" meme didn't come out of nowhere after all.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aahz

The Joker is imo to popular and iconic that they would try something like this. And since haven't really introduced Jason sofar in the DCEU it would probably irritate the general audience.

----------


## REAL

> Why not? Jason was after all is the king of Bat-titles. 
> 
> Robin 
> Red Hood 
> Batman 
> Red Robin 
> Nightwing 
> Wingman 
> Arkham Knight 
> ...


I will let Jason answer this time. 



And forgot the freaking joker. I want a story with Jason as Lantern. 

GIVE ME A STORY WITH JASON AS LANTERN, DC!

----------


## godisawesome

> The more interesting aspect of the scene for me is whether Jason would have managed to save the guy in freefall or not if he wanted. That`s where I feel the moment is stronger, because past that all he wanted was to make Felipe beg for what he did, which makes him right. He spooked him.


I own the follow up issue as well, and I tend to think that Jason's per lexicon at Garzonas SR. Seeking revenge is more likely to imply that Jason was trying to move past the incident, which strikes me as more dramatic as an accident that Jason doesn't regret than fall out from committing a murder.

----------


## Rise

> I will let Jason answer this time. 
> 
> 
> 
> And forgot the freaking joker. I want a story with Jason as Lantern. 
> 
> GIVE ME A STORY WITH JASON AS LANTERN, DC!


lol. 

Jason as Lantern is interesting idea, but which Lantern he would be? Red, Green.. Etc?

----------


## kaimaciel

> lol. 
> 
> Jason as Lantern is interesting idea, but which Lantern he would be? Red, Green.. Etc?


Definitely Red.

----------


## REAL

> lol. 
> 
> Jason as Lantern is interesting idea, but which Lantern he would be? Red, Green.. Etc?


Red is the obvious answer whenever someone ask because "RED, RAGE", but Jason is too chill for him to be a red lantern. 

I think he would be a green lantern because he has iron will and he did overcome his fear of his death.

----------


## Rise

> Red is the obvious answer whenever someone ask because "RED, RAGE", but Jason is too chill for him to be a red lantern. 
> 
> I think he would be a green lantern because he has iron will and he did overcome his fear of his death.


What about...Star Sapphire?

----------


## REAL

> What about...stat sapphire?


............ 

Seriously, *Rise*?

----------


## Rise

> ............ 
> 
> Seriously, *Rise*?


In my defense, I have recently read a story with Jason as Star Sapphire and it was actually good. 

Do you want me to send you a link?

----------


## REAL

> In my defense, I have recently read a story with Jason as Star Sapphire and it was actually good. 
> 
> Do you want me to send you a link?


My answer is no?

----------


## Rise

> My answer is no?


Well, it's either I send you the link or a picture of Jason as Star Sapphire.

It's your choice, REAL.  :Smile:

----------


## REAL

> Well, it's either I send you the link or a picture of Jason as Star Sapphire.
> 
> It's your choice, REAL.


Oh God, a picture of Jason as star sapphire.. 

Just send me the link.

----------


## Rise

> Oh God, a picture of Jason as star sapphire.. 
> 
> Just send me the link.


Wise choice. 

Have you ever seen this meme? 




I laugh whenever I see it.

----------


## REAL

> Wise choice. 
> 
> Have you ever seen this meme? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I laugh whenever I see it.


Oh yeah, it's indeed hilarious. 

This one also made me laugh.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> lol. 
> 
> Jason as Lantern is interesting idea, but which Lantern he would be? Red, Green.. Etc?


Black obviously.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #2 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Giuseppe Camuncoli, Cam Smith, variant cover by Matteo Scalera.
> 
> "Dark Trinity" part 2! Red Hood's investigation takes a painful turn when he encounters a mysterious woman named Artemis! Outmatched by this powerful Amazon, Jason's only hope for survival is finding a common ground with his attacker--that is, if Artemis gives him the chance!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on Sept. 14.


I'm loving this

And Artemis looks quite badass in the cover.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m liking what I see so far. 

He`s gotta make that respect flow  :Cool:  not sure if some amazons will like it, tho...

----------


## REAL

I'm really looking forward to Artemis.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD/ARSENAL VOL. 2: DANCING WITH THE DEVIL’S DAUGHTER TP
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by JAVIER FERNANDEZ, DEXTER SOY and JOE BENNETT 
> Cover by LEONARDO MANCO
> As the boys deal with their success as a rent-a-hero company, new trouble puts Jason and Roy to the test! And with a new hire like Joker’s Daughter, who needs enemies? Collects issues #7-13, *plus RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS: REBIRTH #1!* 
> On sale OCTOBER 12 • 184 pg, FC, $16.99 US


Pretty awesome collection. I'd like a different cover though

----------


## AJpyro

There is nothing about that Artemis and Jason cover that I don't love. In Lobdell, I trust.

----------


## Rise

A few days ago I got into a discussion with some guys about Red Hood and one of them said* "It's amazing how Jason Todd become so popular despite the fact that DC isn't doing a very good job with him,"* which got me thinking.

What made Red Hood work? What made him so appealing to the fans that even casuals who don't read comics likes him?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A few days ago I got into a discussion with some guys about Red Hood and one of them said* "It's amazing how Jason Todd become so popular despite the fact that DC isn't doing a very good job with him,"* which got me thinking.
> 
> What made Red Hood work? What made him so appealing to the fans that even casuals who don't read comics likes him?


Simple, Jason is so deeply flawed that is not hard for certain facets of his character to resonate with many different kinds of fans. Tumblr for example loves him due being a tortured and flawed character and more or less simply want him to be happy (the "all the girls love bad boys" mentality), other fans like myself find her dynamic and morals as adding a very interesting layer to the Batman corner of the DCU, others enjoy seeing him as the living proof of Bruce's mistakes and so on.

----------


## Rise

> Simple, Jason is so deeply flawed that is not hard for certain facets of his character to resonate with many different kinds of fans. Tumblr for example loves him due being a tortured and flawed character and more or less simply want him to be happy (the "all the girls love bad boys" mentality), other fans like myself find her dynamic and morals as adding a very interesting layer to the Batman corner of the DCU, others enjoy seeing him as the living proof of Bruce's mistakes and so on.


So, him being flawed is what made him relatable and likable. I guess it's one of the reasons why I like him too.

----------


## REAL

*Rise*, the story you talked about is weird and really funny. 

Jason reaction to him being a star sapphire made me laugh hard.

----------


## Aioros22

Okay, I`m late to the party. Which story is_ that_?

----------


## Agent Z

Something I've always wondered. Did any of the Batfamily besides Bruce ever learn about Sheila betraying Jason? It's never mentioned by any of them as far as I can tell.

----------


## Aioros22

> Something I've always wondered. Did any of the Batfamily besides Bruce ever learn about Sheila betraying Jason? It's never mentioned by any of them as far as I can tell.


It`s wasn`t even mentioned in most retellings (period) and the reason is simple. It served editorial`s scapegoating towards the storyline, completely washing their hands on the matter. In.story, Barbara may have known. she was the only other "bat" hero presented at the funeral and both Jason and Sheila were buried next to each other. That doesn`t mean Bruce told her about that detail, tho.

----------


## Rise

> *Rise*, the story you talked about is weird and really funny. 
> 
> Jason reaction to him being a star sapphire made me laugh hard.


You actually read it?  :Big Grin: 

And I told you it was funny! 

But why you didn't answer my question, REAL?  :Mad: 




> Okay, I`m late to the party. Which story is_ that_?


It's a story about Jason where he became a Star Sapphire and it's pretty funny.

----------


## REAL

> It`s wasn`t even mentioned in most retellings (period) and the reason is simple. It served editorial`s scapegoating towards the storyline, completely washing their hands on the matter. In.story, Barbara may have known. she was the only other "bat" hero presented at the funeral and both Jason and Sheila were buried next to each other. That doesn`t mean Bruce told her about that detail, tho.


Bruce actually know about Sheila betrayal? I always thought that he doesn't. 




> But why you didn't answer my question, REAL? :mad


Which question?

----------


## Agent Z

> It`s wasn`t even mentioned in most retellings (period) and the reason is simple. It served editorial`s scapegoating towards the storyline, completely washing their hands on the matter. In.story, Barbara may have known. she was the only other "bat" hero presented at the funeral and both Jason and Sheila were buried next to each other. That doesn`t mean Bruce told her about that detail, tho.


In some ways, what happened with Jason was kind of a precursor to what DC did with Cass and Stephanie. Trying to get rid of them in some way because of their "tainted" criminal backgrounds.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I love the man

https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...14554504568832

----------


## Aioros22

> Bruce actually know about Sheila betrayal? I always thought that he doesn't?


Good one..he knew Sheila was with the Joker, that much is true - Jason told him. Her last words have a confession vibe "much more than *I deserve*" and Bruce may have caught on it, but yeah, the betrayal was never actually spelt out in bold words so to speak. 

Begs the mind why they never explored that dramatic detail. I mean when Tim was making his role I could understand but now seems amiss.




> It's a story about Jason where he became a Star Sapphire and it's pretty funny.


And how do i get that fun on my lap..*****  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> I love the man
> 
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...14554504568832


Of course they would, why would anyone even question it  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Bruce actually know about Sheila betrayal? I always thought that he doesn't.


I was under the impression that he wasn't aware a betrayal took place but as Aioros said Sheila herself vaguely referenced it before she died. I guess it would be up to writers to decide if that means he was aware of it.

----------


## Jason Todd

> I was under the impression that he wasn't aware a betrayal took place but as Aioros said Sheila herself vaguely referenced it before she died. I guess it would be up to writers to decide if that means he was aware of it.


Just had a quick look at the book and she comments on all his problems he still "turned out good" and he is better than she deserved, but as far as I can read there is no direct comment from her saying anything about what happened in the warehouse.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Just had a quick look at the book and she comments on all his problems he still "turned out good" and he is better than she deserved, but as far as I can read there is no direct comment from her saying anything about what happened in the warehouse.


Sheila saying that he was better then she deserved could be read a lot of ways but you're correct that is never says anything directly and no writer after that point ever picked up Sheila's betrayal to do anything with because to make Jay's death seem more tragic was not in their game plan. They wanted to make him into the "bad Robin" whose death was his own fault due to his disobeying Batman's orders.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> A few days ago I got into a discussion with some guys about Red Hood and one of them said* "It's amazing how Jason Todd become so popular despite the fact that DC isn't doing a very good job with him,"* which got me thinking.
> 
> What made Red Hood work? What made him so appealing to the fans that even casuals who don't read comics likes him?


Well I'm probably the wrong person to answer this one seeing as how I've liked Jason Todd's character from the get go even before he was the Red Hood. I'd have to agree with the others who said it's because he is a flawed character. He's not perfect and he has a LOT of baggage that, at least since the reboot, he's starting to work through. He's trying to do the right thing and at his heart he still wants to protect people from the criminals out there even if his methods are not ones that Batman agrees with. What I find appealing about him as the Red Hood is his conviction and his inner strength. He's had a lot of sh!t happen to him in both of his lives and still he  carries on fighting the good fight.

----------


## REAL

Talking about Sheila... 

Yesterday, I watched a story on the crime channel about a mother and her son. The mother's name was Shelia and her son's name was Jason. 

Shelia got accidentally pregnant with Jason when she was just 19 and the father decided to man up and marry her, but he eventually left because he didn't marry her out of love. Shelia later on got herself involved with twisted man, like very and seriously twisted and bad things happened. 

I wasn't able to find out what actually happened because my friend called me, but the whole thing was such a strange coincidence I have to say.

----------


## Rise

> Talking about Sheila... 
> 
> Yesterday, I watched a story on the crime channel about a mother and her son. The mother's name was Shelia and her son's name was Jason. 
> 
> Shelia got accidentally pregnant with Jason when she was just 19 and the father decided to man up and marry her, but he eventually left because he didn't marry her out of love. Shelia later on got herself involved with twisted man, like very and seriously twisted and bad things happened. 
> 
> I wasn't able to find out what actually happened because my friend called me, but the whole thing was such a strange coincidence I have to say.


Well, this kind of creepy  :Smile: . 




> Well I'm probably the wrong person to answer this one seeing as how I've liked Jason Todd's character from the get go even before he was the Red Hood. I'd have to agree with the others who said it's because he is a flawed character. He's not perfect and he has a LOT of baggage that, at least since the reboot, he's starting to work through. He's trying to do the right thing and at his heart he still wants to protect people from the criminals out there even if his methods are not ones that Batman agrees with. What I find appealing about him as the Red Hood is his conviction and his inner strength. He's had a lot of sh!t happen to him in both of his lives and still he  carries on fighting the good fight.


You were his fan before Red Hood? Did you like him from his Robin days.

----------


## Rise

> Which question?


This:



> What made Red Hood work? What made him so appealing to the fans that even casuals who don't read comics likes him?





> And how do i get that fun on my lap..*****


I sent you the link.

----------


## REAL

> What made Red Hood work? What made him so appealing to the fans that even casuals who don't read comics likes him?


Well, he is flawed and complex guy. He feel the most human compared to the other robins which makes him relatable. 

His past as a street kid, the tragedies he went through, his complicated relationships with others, his morality, his status as antihero, his brutality, his fighting style, his death and his return.

All of this made him very interesting and appealing character to different kinds of fans.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You were his fan before Red Hood? Did you like him from his Robin days.


All the way back then, yes. He was Robin by the time I started regularly collecting and reading comics and at that time the only DC books I read were _Detective_ and _Batman_. (I was way more into Marvel back then particularly the X books but the first comic I ever read was a Batman one (Batman #156 in case you're curious) so I stuck with those despite the fact that DC's overall lineup didn't appeal to me at the time.) I know a lot of fans hated him enough to vote to kill him and that some of them are still quite proud to have done so even but I actually liked him a lot back then. I still do.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well, here's my review for the final issue of RH/A. 

http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....rsenal-13.html

Let me know what did you guys think.

----------


## Rise

> Well, here's my review for the final issue of RH/A. 
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....rsenal-13.html
> 
> Let me know what did you guys think.


I really liked you reviews and you made me interested in giving RH/A and also RHATO a chance. 

Do you guys advice me to start with RHATO and RH/A? Or should I wait for RHATO REBIRTH? Are they worth the read?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I really liked you reviews and you made me interested in giving RH/A and also RHATO a chance. 
> 
> Do you guys advice me to start with RHATO and RH/A? Or should I wait for RHATO REBIRTH? Are they worth the read?


Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed my reviews.

So far everything seems to point at RHATO Rebirth being a direct follow up to RHA's events (and those in turn are a direct follow up to the original RHATO) but at the same time, is clear they're trying to make the whole thing very accesible for newcomers and thus, reading the previous series isn't necessary. That being said, I'm a firm believer that both RHATO and RHA are an obligated read for any Jason's fan worth their salt. There's simply too much happening in those series to simply being ignored. With the possible exception of RHATO's issues 19 to 31 though (Tynion and Pfeifer run) since those issues are less than stellar.

----------


## AJpyro

> I really liked you reviews and you made me interested in giving RH/A and also RHATO a chance. 
> 
> Do you guys advice me to start with RHATO and RH/A? Or should I wait for RHATO REBIRTH? Are they worth the read?


RHatO 1-3 is a good start on how the team came together. I'd say start there if you want a beginning. 
Vol 4-5 is skippable. That's the Tynion and Pfeifer issues and just not that good.
Vol 6-7...eh I'd say go for it to see why Kory is not with the team anymore. Plus it had a pretty great christmas annual and showed that a certain daughter of a certain mercenary would be awesome as an Outlaw.

RH/A you can just dive into from #1 and just enjoy the ride.

----------


## JasonTodd428

@ Dark: Loved the review. 

@ Rise: I agree with everyone else. I'd read both series but skip RHATO issues 19-31 because they were just all around bad.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Well, here's my review for the final issue of RH/A. 
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....rsenal-13.html
> 
> Let me know what did you guys think.


It was a great review. Intelligent and insightful. Good job!

----------


## G-Potion

Hello guys. I've finally delurked. Spread the love the add more voice to the Jason fanbase. Happy to be here!  :Cool: 




> Well, here's my review for the final issue of RH/A. 
> 
> http://www.comicbookandmoviereviews....rsenal-13.html
> 
> Let me know what did you guys think.



I read your comments on Exploring the time lab before, but this review really covers all the bases and connects them all in accordance to Jason's thought process. Very nice work. I could imagine a detractor reading this and considering giving both series a more thorough read. The music at the end is a nice touch as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hello guys. I've finally delurked. Spread the love the add more voice to the Jason fanbase. Happy to be here! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read your comments on Exploring the time lab before, but this review really covers all the bases and connects them all in accordance to Jason's thought process. Very nice work. I could imagine a detractor reading this and considering giving both series a more thorough read. The music at the end is a nice touch as well.


Welcome! Is always nice to meet new Jason fans. I hope you enjoy your stay.

To be honest, that review was the result of all the discussion I've had about the issue here, in EtTL and other boards around, so I'm glad that I could present all those points in a clear and intelligent manner (although my editor did found it to be unusually large). Yeah, when I write my reviews a huge part of it is tackle the criticism raised against the books and try to convince people to actually engage with the books instead of simply dismissing it because they don't like the writer or the direction.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hello guys. I've finally delurked. Spread the love the add more voice to the Jason fanbase. Happy to be here! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read your comments on Exploring the time lab before, but this review really covers all the bases and connects them all in accordance to Jason's thought process. Very nice work. I could imagine a detractor reading this and considering giving both series a more thorough read. The music at the end is a nice touch as well.


Welcome to the boards. It's always nice to meet more fans.

----------


## REAL

> I'd read both series but skip RHATO issues 19-31 because they were just all around bad.


Come on, guys. Tynion and Pfeifer issues were the weaker arcs, but they weren't unreadable and I dare to say that I actually enjoyed them.

----------


## Rise

Thanks guys for your recommendation. 




> Come on, guys. Tynion and Pfeifer issues were the weaker arcs, but they weren't unreadable and I dare to say that I actually enjoyed them.


 :Big Grin:

----------


## REAL

> Thanks guys for your recommendation.


Hey there, Rise. Have you decided to read RHATO?

----------


## Rise

> Hey there, Rise. Have you decided to read RHATO?


 I did. Vol. 1 wasn't bad (the ending of issue 3 was right in the feels), but it did have a rocky start. The All-caste concept is good (I really like Durca and Essence) and Roy and Kori fit right in. I actually don't understand why some fans were complaining about their roles because they were definitely better of in rhato than they were in the pre-reboot where Roy was a complete mess and Kori was nothing but Grayson's ex.

----------


## REAL

> I did. Vol. 1 wasn't bad (the ending of issue 3 was right in the feels), but it did have a rocky start. The All-caste concept is good (I really like Durca and Essence) and Roy and Kori fit right in. I actually don't understand why some fans were complaining about their roles because they were definitely better of in rhato than they were in the pre-reboot where Roy was a complete mess and Kori was nothing but Grayson's ex.


Some people just comlain for the sake of complaining. So don't mind them.

----------


## Rise

> Some people just comlain for the sake of complaining. So don't mind them.


It's unfortunately true. 

Hey, REAL. With all the current buzz about BvS, who would you suggest to play Red Hood if WB decided to include him?

----------


## REAL

> It's unfortunately true. 
> 
> Hey, REAL. With all the current buzz about BvS, who would you suggest to play Red Hood if WB decided to include him?


Someone talented that's for sure, but I don't have anyone in mind to be honest.

----------


## Rise

> Someone talented that's for sure, but I don't have anyone in mind to be honest.


Jason definitely needs some real talent to play him. 

Since you can't think of anyone (and I don't have anything better to do right now lol), how about we play a game? Let's choose some random actors to be Jason Todd, but they HAVE to at least have ONE thing in common with him.

----------


## REAL

> Jason definitely needs some real talent to play him. 
> 
> Since you can't think of anyone (and I don't have anything better to do right now lol), how about we play a game? Let's choose some random actors to be Jason Todd, but they HAVE to at least have ONE thing in common with him.


I googled "actor with black hair and blue eyes" and the first picture appeared was this:



I don't know what to say.

----------


## Rise

> I googled "actor with black hair and blue eyes" and the first picture appeared was this:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what to say.


It's DESTINY, REAL. THE JOKER IS JASON TODD and you can't deny it  :Wink: .

----------


## REAL

> It's DESTINY, REAL. THE JOKER IS JASON TODD and you can't deny it .

----------


## Rise

> 


Let go and accept the TRUTH!

----------


## REAL

> Let go and accept the TRUTH!


NEVER! 

This time I googled "6'0 male actors" and this guy appeared:



I don't know his name tho.

----------


## Rise

> never! 
> 
> This time i googled "6'0 male actors" and this guy appeared:
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know his name tho.


but he is blonde?

----------


## REAL

> but he is blonde?


You said ONE THING in common.

----------


## Rise

> You said ONE THING in common.


Fair enough. 

Then I choose JOHN CENA!

----------


## REAL

> Fair enough. 
> 
> Then I choose JOHN CENA!


What do they even have in common?

----------


## Rise

> What do they even have in common?


Black hair. 
Both are 6'1 and weight more than 200 Ilb.
Both make fans mad just by existing.

----------


## REAL

> Black hair. 
> Both are 6'1 and weight more than 200 Ilb.
> Both make fans mad just by existing.

----------


## TheSupernaut

I hope he crosses paths with Rose Wilson again.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't know his name tho.


Ryan Gosling. You just watch "Drive" and "Only God Forgives". One of those actors who don`t need to speak to show intensity as is the case of these two noir films where he portrays anti-heroes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's the first look at Scalera's variant for RHATO #1

----------


## JasonTodd428

That looks nice.

----------


## Aioros22

Love the Shredder style boots. C`mon let`s get it on!

----------


## kaimaciel

> Here's the first look at Scalera's variant for RHATO #1


Jaybird is looking good!

----------


## G-Potion

Looks nice! This team is gonna be so good.

----------


## kaimaciel

Do you guys think Jason will be a playable character on Injustice 2?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I sure hope so. I mean, he ranked pretty high in the poll for DLC Boon did for Injustice 1.

----------


## REAL

> Here's the first look at Scalera's variant for RHATO #1


Jason's costume look so much better here.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m curious, how many characters save Roy have actually called Jason, "Jaybird"? I`m a mind Dick or Tim have but I can`t exactly place a moment.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Far as I know, no one else. Jaybird was something that Lobdell took from the fans.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I believe it's mostly been a fan moniker for Jason up until Lobdell started using it in his books. I can't recall anyone in continuity using the term until that point.

----------


## REAL

> I`m curious, how many characters save Roy have actually called Jason, "Jaybird"? I`m a mind Dick or Tim have but I can`t exactly place a moment.


No one beside Roy has ever called him "Jaybird".

----------


## Rise

What do you guys think would have become of Jason if he never died? And how much different the Batman world would have been?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is a pretty interesting question. For starters, Tim wouldn't exist and is mre than likely than KnightFall would've been very different. Either with Azrael being a non factor or maybe Jason actually becoming his partner since they would have similar mindsets.

----------


## Aahz

I think it depends on on the exact scenario. If he Death in the Family happend and Jason survied or if it never happend (for example because Collins kept writing Batman and Starlin never took over).




> That is a pretty interesting question. For starters, Tim wouldn't exist and is mre than likely than KnightFall would've been very different. Either with Azrael being a non factor or maybe Jason actually becoming his partner since they would have similar mindsets.


If Jason would have stayed Robin he would have probaly overcome his rage issues and would follow the no killing rule.

----------


## REAL

> What do you guys think would have become of Jason if he never died?


Well, Jason's path would depend on whether the DITF event happened or not. If it happened, then Jason would be a loner and darker. I don't think he would join any team and would prefer to work on his own. He and Bruce would fight a lot about the joker and they would have a fall out eventually, but I don't think Jason would ever cross the line and kill someone tho. 

If it didn't happen, then Jason would be a very different person and Bruce would have more time to deal with Jason's anger issues. He would probably join TT at some point and maybe even JL when he grew up. I think Jason would be more carefree and build a lot of friendships. 




> And how much different the Batman world would have been?


Tim wouldn't have existed, Bruce wouldn't be all gloom and doom and many stories would have been different with him around. 

I also think Jason would be the one who would take the Batman mantle if Bruce got killed by Darkseid and would also take damian under his wing because he would see himself in him and feel that he owe it to Bruce to take care of his son.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim wouldn't have existed, Bruce wouldn't be all gloom and doom and many stories would have been different with him around.


I think they would have found an other reason to let Bruce become dark, in the early books with Tim Bruce wasn't so dark as he was portrait later on.

If DITF happened I'm not sure if he would have been still Robin afterwards, or if they has retired him. But he would have probably come out of the retirement at some point.

In the Starlin never became the Batman Writer. I think Jason would have probably been written more like the DCAU-Tim.

But I think we would have seen in any case eventually a similar development as with Tim, and have Jason operate more independent from Bruce, and Bruce being solo in most of his stories.

----------


## Rise

It's amazing how much of impact Jason's death has made and how different things would have been if he didn't die. 

You guys raised a good point about how Jason's path and personality would depend on whether DITF scenario happened or not. And REAL, reading your comment made me absolutely sure that Jason would be the one who became Batman and that seriously would be amazing and his relationship with Damian would be hilarious! 

Now I wonder if Jason and Dick would have become close and whether Jason would have suffered by Damian introduction like Tim did.

----------


## REAL

> I think they would have found an other reason to let Bruce become dark, in the early books with Tim Bruce wasn't so dark as he was portrait later on.


Maybe, but I don't think the writers would have made him so dark if Jason didn't die tho. 




> Now I wonder if Jason and Dick would have become close and whether Jason would have suffered by Damian introduction like Tim did.


They would be quite friendly with each other, but I don't think they would be ever close. I actually think that Jason would be closer to barbara and she would like an older sister to him. 

And no, he wouldn't. Tim suffered because he's nothing without the robin mantle. His writers were so obsessed on making him the perfect robin and didn't bother to actually develop his personality and give him a unique traits. I mean, the fact that they give him Jason's personality and origin in the 90s batman show and the current writers can't make him shine without making whoever with him looks bad, says all you need to know about him. 

Jason taking a new role would be celebrated because it would be a sign of him growing up and damian introduction would be more welcomed because he wouldn't be the _fifth_ robin.

----------


## Rise

> And no, he wouldn't. Tim suffered because he's nothing without the robin mantle. His writers were so obsessed on making him the perfect robin and didn't bother to actually develop his personality and give him a unique traits. I mean, the fact that they give him Jason's personality and origin in the 90s batman show and the current writers can't make him shine without making whoever with him looks bad, says all you need to know about him. 
> 
> Jason taking a new role would be celebrated because it would be a sign of him growing up and damian introduction would be more welcomed because he wouldn't be the _fifth_ robin.


Yeah. As much as I like Tim, I can't deny that he is kind of bland and the least interesting Robin.

Which Robin (beside Jason) do you like?

----------


## REAL

> Yeah. As much as I like Tim, I can't deny that he is kind of bland and the least interesting Robin.
> 
> Which Robin (beside Jason) do you like?


All of them. I might be harsh on some, but I don't hate any of them. They all are interesting in their own way and all of them have their fair share of problems. 

Dick is Mr. Fan service . 
Jason is inconsistent as heck. 
Tim is self insert character. 
Damian is unnecessary addition. 

Not to mention that they all freaking look alike. 

But Batman wouldn't be the same without any of them and they are the ones that made batman world interesting and unique.

----------


## Aioros22

> Far as I know, no one else. Jaybird was something that Lobdell took from the fans.


How weird, I have no idea how that feeling came to me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What do you guys think would have become of Jason if he never died? And how much different the Batman world would have been?


That would depend on whether DitF still happened or not. For me I would have found his character arc in that situation to be more interesting if he had survived the Joker's attack then if he hadn't. Either way though I think we would have seen him deal with his anger issues that I'm pretty sure stemmed from both life on the streets and his childhood abandonment issues. I think Bruce would have finally come to terms with the fact that Jason was his own person and that expecthim to be just like Dick was ridiculous. I want to think that woild have lead to his growning in the Robin role making it his own with maybe a run with his own generation of Teen Titans. He would then move on into his own superhero role once he was older leaving Robin to the next kid to come along. I also think it would have changed the way the whole world of Batman functioned and that the landscape of that world might have been a less grim and gritty without Jason's death as one of the cornerstones of it.

Also for the record my other favorite Robin besides Jason is Damian. I didn't like him at first but he grew on me over the years.

----------


## oasis1313

My rankings:
(1) Dick -- the nice Robin
(2) Jason -- the badass Robin
(3) Tim -- the Mary Sue Robin
(4) Damian -- the biological Robin

----------


## G-Potion

On a related note, for you guys who were there when DITF happened and when Jason was brought back in Hush and UTRH, how did it feel on each occasion? I came in pretty late so I'm curious about how long time fans feel.

----------


## kaimaciel

Dick did call Jason "Little Wing" way back. I think it's adorable. 

As for Jason never dying, he was in a coma after the explosion in those unused panels from Death in the Family. I wouldn't be surprised it DC had decided to keep him in a coma for a long time (like Connor Hawke), forcing Batman to accept a new Robin (Tim Drake), then Jason wakes up, sees he's been replaced and we get our drama.

----------


## Aahz

> As for Jason never dying, he was in a coma after the explosion in those unused panels from Death in the Family. I wouldn't be surprised it DC had decided to keep him in a coma for a long time (like Connor Hawke), forcing Batman to accept a new Robin (Tim Drake), then Jason wakes up, sees he's been replaced and we get our drama.


Big question would be if the fans would have accepted Tim if Jason was still alive.

Another interesting question might be what Damian would be like if Jason would have still be Robin. Since Damain has more similarities with Jason than with Tim or Dick he might have been very different if Jason would have been Robin at the time of Damians creation.

----------


## Aioros22

If Jason had go on you wouldn`t really need Tim. His existence d`etre in the first years was how of a contrast he was to Jason. It`s later in his solo series and dalliences that his character devolops on his own but by then, he was already set.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> On a related note, for you guys who were there when DITF happened and when Jason was brought back in Hush and UTRH, how did it feel on each occasion? I came in pretty late so I'm curious about how long time fans feel.


I was hacked off by the phone poll that was connected to DitF. I thought and still think if was the worst thing the writers of the time could have done and that to sensationalize his death was unnecessarily callous. It made me angry enough that I actually quit reading comics altogether for a over a decade after. I was furious back then and I really haven't forgiven them for it now. I didn't read Hush or UtRH at the time they came out though. Those were books I read much later once I returned to reading comics in 2009 as part of a backlog of books I wanted to read to get myself up to speed on things.

----------


## oasis1313

> I was hacked off by the phone poll that was connected to DitF. I thought and still think if was the worst thing the writers of the time could have done and that to sensationalize his death was unnecessarily callous. It made me angry enough that I actually quit reading comics altogether for a over a decade after. I was furious back then and I really haven't forgiven them for it now. I didn't read Hush or UtRH at the time they came out though. Those were books I read much later once I returned to reading comics in 2009 as part of a backlog of books I wanted to read to get myself up to speed on things.


I find it very troubling for children to be brutally murdered in comic books.  It's not nice to kill children or puppies.

----------


## Aioros22

The thread about the fan cast for the upcoming Batman had me thinking and voilá! I just saw this movie again last night and it clicked. If they ever do a Jason/Red Hood I`m wanting some amazing Gun-fu like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-HSoOFdJ3s

----------


## Rise

> All of them. I might be harsh on some, but I don't hate any of them. They all are interesting in their own way and all of them have their fair share of problems. 
> 
> Dick is Mr. Fan service.  
> Jason is inconsistent as heck. 
> Tim is self insert character. 
> Damian is unnecessary addition. 
> 
> Not to mention that they all freaking look alike. 
> 
> But Batman wouldn't be the same without any of them and they are the ones that made batman world interesting and unique.


lol, REAL. You really don't hold back, but you did make an accurate description of their problems and I definitely agree.

----------


## Rise

Hey, guys. Which one is your favorite Red Hood costume? 

*Under The Red Hood (comic version):*


*Under The Red Hood (DCAU version):*


*Batman & Robin Winick's version (let's pretend that Morrison's version never happened):
*

----------


## Rise

*New 52:*


*DCyou:*

----------


## Rise

*Arkham Knight (version 1):*


*Arkham Knight (version 2):*


Rebirth:

----------


## Aioros22

I really like the current one. It`be better without the bat in the chest, but it doesn`t detract to it. Love the shinguards and metal plates on the gloves. 

Overall my preference is for the UTRH vibe with the urban style but I got to say, with some touches, I wouldn`t mind the later Winnick color pallete (black jacket and then white and dark motifs - even truer, no chest emblem here), but that`s a more superhero standard so...preference wins. Arkham`s Knight design is pretty great and effective and I think it would translate the best for a live action feature. 

One of the designs that I think would work great would be the Hush one. That whole dark suit with a jacket and the addition of the iconic Red Hood. 

Keep the guns. Give him back that unique looking blade (and I say this enjoying the mystical blades of Jason`s New52).

----------


## Aioros22

Eh, just re-found the name of that dagger. It`s the Kris. "For those who came in late...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Since it`s considered a spiritual object i`d love the writers to give it back because it wouldn`t contradict his mystical training one bit! From the wiki:

"(...)Both a weapon and spiritual object, kris are often considered to have an essence or presence, considered to possess magical powers, with some blades possessing good luck and others possessing bad.[5] Kris are used for display, as talismans with magical powers"

paging Loedbell and co 

It also adds the Martial Arts aspect to it because they aren`t your generic weapon. They have a clear purpose in combat, which is to weaken the opponent with clear precise cuts that makes it difficult to heal.

----------


## Rise

> Eh, just re-found the name of that dagger. It`s the Kris. "For those who came in late...."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris
> 
> Since it`s considered a spiritual object i`d love the writers to give it back because it wouldn`t contradict his mystical training one bit! From the wiki:
> 
> "(...)Both a weapon and spiritual object, kris are often considered to have an essence or presence, considered to possess magical powers, with some blades possessing good luck and others possessing bad.[5] Kris are used for display, as talismans with magical powers"
> 
> paging Loedbell and co 
> ...


Great find. I really loved Jason's dagger and I hope that Lobdell bring it back. 

Btw I found this random panel on twitter and it's from the new rhato!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clfse-FVYAEcNI9.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

GDI DC, I thought you had finally ditched the IDIOTIC helmet with a face. Is, so hard to have a featureless helmet? Anyways, you know the source?

And my favorite costume is the DCYOU one. The hoodie and the helmet simply look really cool.

----------


## Aioros22

> Great find. I really loved Jason's dagger and I hope that Lobdell bring it back. 
> 
> Btw I found this random panel on twitter and it's from the new rhato!
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Clfse-FVYAEcNI9.jpg


The level of detail in the ink stage is great but I agree. Ditch the expressive looking helmet. Some artists like Rocafort can/make it work, but most won`t (and we`ve seen alot of them try it in those millions of crossovers) I prefer the clean helmet right back, _please_. 

Also, it seems some artists are already forgetting the metal plates on the gloves, maaan. Seriously. Faceless helmet and metal plates. I understand, artists always have that itch to add and add and give expression to characters...but when it comes to costume design, _less is more_ people! If you don`t show the usual emoticon with the face, do it throught body language. 

Storytelling isn`t stationarily random...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Ok, false alarm people. Is not from RHATO, just some artist trying to catch the eye of someone.

https://twitter.com/chrisjinfiction/...24286651469824

----------


## Aioros22

Let me go eat my hat then  :Cool:

----------


## REAL

AK v1 is definitely my favorite Red Hood costume and I also liked N52. 

And thanks God that pic was fake because if it's real, I would have blamed you, *Rise*.

----------


## Rise

Sorry guys about the fake picture! 




> AK v1 is definitely my favorite Red Hood costume and I also liked N52. 
> 
> And thanks God that pic was fake because if it's real, I would have blamed you, *Rise*.


YOU BLAME ME FOR EVERYTHING, REAL!

----------


## Aahz

My favourites of the official are, classic and Arkham Knight one, followed closely by DCyou.

My the ideal design would be similar to this.


 I prefer the black Leather jacket,  the Hood (but it should connected to the suit like in DCyou and not the jacket like in Arkham) and a expession less Helmet with Eyes. I also like the Batman style Arm guards of the DCyou suit, but they don't really work with the Jaket.

----------


## G-Potion

Since we're ignoring Morrison's atrocity, I find all the costumes Rise posted to be pretty good and each fits the tone of the storytelling at the time. Though not my favourites, I like how B&R Winick's and DCYou's version dared to be so different. Both AK costumes look the most formidable imo. That said, UTRH vibe costumes are still my favourite and can't wait to see the Rebirth costume in action.




> Eh, just re-found the name of that dagger. It`s the Kris. "For those who came in late...."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris
> 
> Since it`s considered a spiritual object i`d love the writers to give it back because it wouldn`t contradict his mystical training one bit! From the wiki:
> 
> "(...)Both a weapon and spiritual object, kris are often considered to have an essence or presence, considered to possess magical powers, with some blades possessing good luck and others possessing bad.[5] Kris are used for display, as talismans with magical powers"
> 
> paging Loedbell and co 
> ...


So many yes's to this. As much as I like the All-Blades, I like Jason as a combination of long range and super close range fighter more. The magical attributes would fit so well with Lobdell's origin. Should I send this Lobdell's way now?!?

----------


## Aioros22

Sure do, but make sure to send the edited post because opponent wasn`t well written  :Cool: 

It would be easy to reinsert the Kris as well. All you require is a flashback to All-Caste and Ducra asking Jason to chose one blade among ones he`s been training with, to specialize with.

----------


## Rise

Jason is suspect in one of Snapchat missing cases  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Sure do, but make sure to send the edited post because opponent wasn`t well written 
> 
> It would be easy to reinsert the Kris as well. All you require is a flashback to All-Caste and Ducra asking Jason to chose one blade among ones he`s been training with, to specialize with.


I don't think Lobdell will seriously consider bringing the Kris back. At most he would add a small wink at it, like he did already on RHATO's 2 where the Kris could be seen in the background of Jason's safe house.

----------


## Aioros22

Sure, just having fun with the idea.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

HYPE

----------


## Mutant God

I like that Todd became a foil to Dick, a sidekick who didn't believe in Bruce teachings of forgiveness and being the bigger man, but I don't know which "origins" of the Red Hood I like better: 
Arkham Knight's version of Joker pretending to kill Jason but actually kept him in Arkham Asylum mentally and physically torturing Jason and deconstructing everything that Bruce taught Jason about justice and being a hero or the League of Assassins' version of bringing Jason back from the dead and Al-ghul teaching Jason how to kill and teaching that letting criminals go is wrong.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Al Ghul have never been doing anything beyond putting Jason on the pit though?

And the Arkham one version is retarded.

----------


## oasis1313

My version:  Evil Superboy knocked a rift in time-dimensions-whatever.  Jason came back from the dead, dug himself out of his own grave, and went on to kick azz.

----------


## godisawesome

> The Al Ghul have never been doing anything beyond putting Jason on the pit though?
> 
> _And the Arkham one version is retarded._


It's most definetly underutilized and under thought. The theoretical advantages of Jason having his death faked and being brainwashed by Joker are that you drop some of the unbelievability about Jason coming back from the dead and blaming Bruce. But his programming's portrayed as both too complete for him to have that much autonomy in his decisions (the way he seems to have a kill program triggered by Bruce existing) and yet too weak for immediate effect (why is he waiting so long to go after his target?) and even his alliance with Scarecrow doesn't really make sense (Jason's the one with the _army_, so why the hell does Scarecrow get to deactivate his helicopter's weaponry?). Plus, they missed out on some golden Batfamily opportunities and boss fight possibilities: I'm a Tim Drake fan who was really looking forward to having Jason attack Tim and have both characters act as foils to each other, or having Nightwing go big brother to defend Tim or try and reach out to Jason, or at least a boss fight where both Jason and Bruce's aresenal's run dry and we get to see just how dangerous they both are.

Instead, we got a Mad Jason driven by the needs of the plot, two Dick Graysons with one slapped with Tim Drake's name and weapon of choice but dating Barbara(?), two tank battles and a glorified Predator challenge to defeat Arkham Knight, with a Batman who acts so stupid towards his own allies that they all get taken hostage at one point or another, with at least one, possibly two, left in sealed containers for Scarecrow to claim, all while he's also sociopathic enough to give up looking for Jason after a month and immediately employ TINO2 (TINO1 is New 52 Tim Drake).

If Jason ever does get to make a transition to movie land, they need to certify how they're going to treat his character: either there's a good deal of his own will behind his antagonism of Bruce, or he's totally brainwashed. And since the latter has already been done by Winter Soldier in the MCU, we need a Jason who's disagreements with Bruce are sincere. So I like the idea of Ra's or Talia raising Jason deliberately to make amends to Bruce and he escapes, or have a mortally wounded Jason angrily choose to have himself resurrected by the Al Ghuls because he thinks Batman has screwed up some way. And I'd fully embrace the UTRH idea that Jason wants to replace Bruce and is not so much challenging him head on as trying to undercut and subvert his way of keeping Gotham safe by taking over some gangs and try and control the crime.

----------


## Pohzee

I actually liked the idea behind the Arkham Knight Red Hood origin a lot. If Jason doesn't stay dead, than he may as well not have died, and the idea that Batman gave up and took on a new Robin while the Joker broke and tortured Jason is a lot more twisted. It is also cleaner, since you don't have to explain his resurrection and instead of involving two villians, it just involves the Joker?

----------


## Aioros22

Count me in among those who throughly enjoyed Arkham knight`s game origin. To me, at the core, it`s no better or worse than UTRH. It`s jus another angle, a more twisted angle mayhaps, but both Jason and Batman and Joker come out as complex characters and in the end Jason beats the programming. Fine with me. In fact it might be better for a live adaptation than using Ras and the Pit but that depends on the writing approach. Arkham Knight or animated UTRH at large are damn good origins for the Red Hood persona and both explore character. 

Sure, the game`s plot got one or two holes but then again it`s rare the major story that doesn`t.

----------


## Aioros22

No matter what, if there`s one plot point you will never see mention again about his return and it`s for the best, is SuperboypunchTM. Unecessary and it won`t ever translate well in whatever media you want to adapt.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Count me in among those who throughly enjoyed Arkham knight`s game origin. To me, at the core, it`s no better or worse than UTRH. It`s jus another angle, a more twisted angle mayhaps, but both Jason and Batman and Joker come out as complex characters and in the end Jason beats the programming. Fine with me. In fact it might be better for a live adaptation than using Ras and the Pit but that depends on the writing approach. Arkham Knight or animated UTRH at large are damn good origins for the Red Hood persona and both explore character. 
> 
> Sure, the game`s plot got one or two holes but then again it`s rare the major story that doesn`t.


This, I pretty much agree with you on all fronts.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Count me in among those who throughly enjoyed Arkham knight`s game origin. To me, at the core, it`s no better or worse than UTRH. It`s jus another angle, a more twisted angle mayhaps, but both Jason and Batman and Joker come out as complex characters and in the end Jason beats the programming. Fine with me. In fact it might be better for a live adaptation than using Ras and the Pit but that depends on the writing approach. Arkham Knight or animated UTRH at large are damn good origins for the Red Hood persona and both explore character. 
> 
> Sure, the game`s plot got one or two holes but then again it`s rare the major story that doesn`t.


Putting aside the excellent overview that godisawesome shared above, Arkham Knight's origin simply takes away any sort of agency from Jason. He's literally a puppet for the Joker from beginning to end, teaming up with Scarecrow and all the bs he pulls through the game completely undermines any possible creed he could have as Red Hood. And the Red Hood persona didn't even makes sense for him to embrace. Is not like in the original story where he was taking something he feared like Batman, or in the N52 where he took it to take away something from the Joker and making it his. In AK he's just using it because that is what he's supposed to be, but it lacks any internal consistency within the narrative set by the game.

And last but not least, Genesis runs with the idea Jason is bad and he always was. Tomasi never bothers to show any redeemable trait on him, he's just worried about vengeance and everyone else that could be caught in the crossfire can go to hell.

----------


## Aahz

> Putting aside the excellent overview that godisawesome shared above, Arkham Knight's origin simply takes away any sort of agency from Jason. He's literally a puppet for the Joker from beginning to end, teaming up with Scarecrow and all the bs he pulls through the game completely undermines any possible creed he could have as Red Hood. And the Red Hood persona didn't even makes sense for him to embrace. Is not like in the original story where he was taking something he feared like Batman, or in the N52 where he took it to take away something from the Joker and making it his. In AK he's just using it because that is what he's supposed to be, but it lacks any internal consistency within the narrative set by the game.
> 
> And last but not least, Genesis runs with the idea Jason is bad and he always was. Tomasi never bothers to show any redeemable trait on him, he's just worried about vengeance and everyone else that could be caught in the crossfire can go to hell.


I have to agree.

But what I like about it, is that that Thomasi really  presents Jason as someone who was incredibly talented, so you could see why Batman would make him Robin. The only other origin story that did this was the original one, but due to the "power creep" in the Batman Comics, it isn't really impressive by modern standards. Other modern origins (like Lobdells in the new 52 and Dixons Mnightwing: Year one) are missing this.

I'm partial about resurrection or not. On the one hand resurrections are always kind of stupid but on the other hand the pictures of Jason bursting out of his grave and the pit are kind of iconic.

----------


## Aioros22

> Putting aside the excellent overview that godisawesome shared above, Arkham Knight's origin simply takes away any sort of agency from Jason. He's literally a puppet for the Joker from beginning to end, teaming up with Scarecrow and all the bs he pulls through the game completely undermines any possible creed he could have as Red Hood.


He`s supposed to be. He`s supposed to have been tortured and conditioned to not be anything else than what Joker wanted him to be and that`s a distortion of Batman. Not sure in what way would what he did as AK undermine any "cred" as Red Hood when for all purposes, until the end of the game, AK is AK. He`s not "Jason tood" or "Red Hood". It`s only when he beats the programming that he starts to think as himself again. The story game is about Jason returning to a mind of his own. 




> And the Red Hood persona didn't even makes sense for him to embrace. Is not like in the original story where he was taking something he feared like Batman, or in the N52 where he took it to take away something from the Joker and making it his. In AK he's just using it because that is what he's supposed to be, but it lacks any internal consistency within the narrative set by the game.


Well the game doesn`t dwell much here because that`s where the it ends and certainly the bonus 10 min story format leads to be desired because of how little exploration there is. But vaguely enough there`s nothing in the game contradicting whatever common route for UTRH you`d have. Jason is his own man again and brands a different sort of justice than Batman. He`s rogue but then again...saves Batman and in turn Gotham. 




> And last but not least, Genesis runs with the idea Jason is bad and he always was. Tomasi never bothers to show any redeemable trait on him, he's just worried about vengeance and everyone else that could be caught in the crossfire can go to hell.


I`d have to read the whole story in one sitting, but I recall Tomasi showing endearing qualities on Jason, particularly as Robin..? But let`s set three things on the get-go. One, Tomasi wasn`t a head writer in any capacity on "Batman: Arkham Knight", so regardless one likes Genesis or not I believe the storytelling potential that the game delivered us can stand on it`s own legs and merit. 

Two...didn`t he show compasion as AK towards Barbara? Didn`t he spared Harley when she was caught at some studio? Again I need to re-read the whole thing so I may be mixing things up but it seems that the whole warlike mentality you speak of is run towards Batman...

Which Three...it makes sense within this storyboard. AK:Genesis is not about Jason after he breaks from the conditioning. It`s how he came to be the AK, which for all intents and purposes still means that when it comes to Bruce, above all else, Joker is still the one in his head. I`m sure that in the 6 issue series, considering Tomasi wasn`t part of the writing team for the game and filling any space he could, there`s bound to be inconsistancies but honestky, they aren`t anything you can`t properly do a rewrite about. Just adding my two cents.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He`s supposed to be. He`s supposed to have been tortured and conditioned to not be anything else than what Joker wanted him to be and that's a distortion of Batman. Not sure in what way would what he did as AK undermine any "cred" as Red Hood when for all purposes, until the end of the game, AK is AK. He`s not "Jason tood" or "Red Hood". It`s only when he beats the programming that he starts to think as himself again. The story game is about Jason returning to a mind of his own.


He does though? There's nothing in the game that shows Jason actually acting by himself nor "breaking free" from the Joker's programming. Rather, he just changes one directive (Joker's) for another (Batman's) In fact, the DLC is so disjointed for the main game narrative that it doesn't seem logical for Red Hood and AK to be the same character.




> Well the game doesn`t dwell much here because that`s where the it ends and certainly the bonus 10 min story format leads to be desired because of how little exploration there is. But vaguely enough there`s nothing in the game contradicting whatever common route for UTRH you`d have. Jason is his own man again and brands a different sort of justice than Batman. He's rogue but then again...saves Batman and in turn Gotham.


But what is his sort of justice? What drives him to do that? Hell, as the AK he did even worse things to anyone and everyone that crossed his path. Under The Red Hood was clear to show Jason honestly believing his way the best option to help everyone else in the city. In AK there's nothing of the sort, he's just randomly killing villains just because.




> I`d have to read the whole story in one sitting, but I recall Tomasi showing endearing qualities on Jason, particularly as Robin..? But let`s set three things on the get-go. One, Tomasi wasn`t a head writer in any capacity on "Batman: Arkham Knight", so regardless one likes Genesis or not I believe the storytelling potential that the game delivered us can stand on it`s own legs and merit.


Not really, for  all the points godisawesome detailed before. The narrative is flawed since its conception and it doesn't offer anything really worth to the mythos, rather it butchers them for no good reason.




> Two...didn`t he show compasion as AK towards Barbara? Didn`t he spared Harley when she was caught at some studio? Again I need to re-read the whole thing so I may be mixing things up but it seems that the whole warlike mentality you speak of is run towards Batman...


We actually never see him show compassion to Barbara (and in any case, using her as bait negates any kindness he might have shown). He didn't spare Harley, he threatened her into collaborating with him and Scarecrow. 

And yes, that is exactly the problem, there's nothing more on his characterization than his obsession with Batman. 




> Which Three...it makes sense within this storyboard. AK:Genesis is not about Jason after he breaks from the conditioning. It`s how he came to be the AK, which for all intents and purposes still means that when it comes to Bruce, above all else, Joker is still the one in his head. I`m sure that in the 6 issue series, considering Tomasi wasn`t part of the writing team for the game and filling any space he could, there`s bound to be inconsistancies but honestky, they aren`t anything you can`t properly do a rewrite about. Just adding my two cents.


The series is supposed to provide us with te insight on Jason's character that the game failed to offer, so, if you're gonna simply dismiss it you don't have much left to understand Jason's character.

----------


## Mutant God

> If Jason ever does get to make a transition to movie land, they need to certify how they're going to treat his character: either there's a good deal of his own will behind his antagonism of Bruce, or he's totally brainwashed. And since the latter has already been done by Winter Soldier in the MCU, we need a Jason who's disagreements with Bruce are sincere. So I like the idea of Ra's or Talia raising Jason deliberately to make amends to Bruce and he escapes, or *have a mortally wounded Jason angrily choose to have himself resurrected by the Al Ghuls* because he thinks Batman has screwed up some way. And I'd fully embrace the UTRH idea that Jason wants to replace Bruce and is not so much challenging him head on as trying to undercut and subvert his way of keeping Gotham safe by taking over some gangs and try and control the crime.


How can you choose to be resurrected, your dead?





> Putting aside the excellent overview that godisawesome shared above, Arkham Knight's origin simply takes away any sort of agency from Jason. *He's literally a puppet for the Joker from beginning to end*, teaming up with Scarecrow and all the bs he pulls through the game completely undermines any possible creed he could have as Red Hood. And the Red Hood persona didn't even makes sense for him to embrace. Is not like in the original story where he was taking something he feared like Batman, or in the N52 where he took it to take away something from the Joker and making it his. In AK he's just using it because that is what he's supposed to be, but it lacks any internal consistency within the narrative set by the game.


I actually like that analogy, all this time Jason is just a puppet to Joker (which could make a cool comic cover of, Jason as a puppet with Joker holding the strings), a puppet that Joker could cut the strings at any time. Which could also works on a complex level as Joker tells Jason no one can escape their fate.

----------


## Adekis

> If Jason ever does get to make a transition to movie land, they need to certify how they're going to treat his character: either there's a good deal of his own will behind his antagonism of Bruce, or he's totally brainwashed. And since the latter has already been done by Winter Soldier in the MCU, we need a Jason who's disagreements with Bruce are sincere. So I like the idea of Ra's or Talia raising Jason deliberately to make amends to Bruce and he escapes, or have a mortally wounded Jason angrily choose to have himself resurrected by the Al Ghuls because he thinks Batman has screwed up some way. And I'd fully embrace the UTRH idea that Jason wants to replace Bruce and is not so much challenging him head on as trying to undercut and subvert his way of keeping Gotham safe by taking over some gangs and try and control the crime.


Damn right. Jason Todd has got to be his own man, not a brainwashed puppet at any stage of the equation. It'll separate him from Bucky if he's got a real _conflict_ with Bruce's methods- or if we can see some concrete instances of Batman's methods ending badly where Jason's end well (if more violently)

Also, he really ought to be sincerely heroic, not villainous, and just operating under Punisher rules rather than Batman rules.

----------


## Aahz

Since were were dicussing about All-Caste and All-Blades, I would also like to see the glowing tattoos again. And I think even in a live movie adaption this stuff could look awesome.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I actually hope they keep the All Caste as a part of his training after his resurrection. There's no reason he can't have been trained there in addition to training he received from either the LoA and/or the various teachers Talia found for him according to Lost Days.

----------


## godisawesome

> *How can you choose to be resurrected, your dead?*
> 
> 
> I actually like that analogy, all this time Jason is just a puppet to Joker (which could make a cool comic cover of, Jason as a puppet with Joker holding the strings), a puppet that Joker could cut the strings at any time. Which could also works on a complex level as Joker tells Jason no one can escape their fate.


I'm going to go ahead and summarize a small story pitch I put on a message board once a few years back to illustrate roughly what I meant. It's a little too involved and wouldn't fit the current DCEU at all, but here you go: Jason as Robin spends a movie fighting alongside Batman against the Al Ghuls. While Ra's does his usual "join me" spiel on Bruce and Bruce keeps rejecting it, Talia notes Jason's doubts about Batman's (at least initially) more merciful methods, particularly when villains keep escaping. So, she talks to Jason when he's kidnapped and notes how there may be a day when Bruce or someone close to him may be "proven wrong," in which case she's willing to use the Lazarus Pit on them, but only if they will agree to try her methods for a while.

When Joker inevitably springs his trap on Jason, he ends up instantly killing someone Jason cares about and mortally wounding Jason, but leaving Jason conscience. My initial crazy idea was that the film would be "World's Finest 2" and feature Robin teaming up with Supergirl with her being Kryptonian killed (and thus pretty ressurectable) but even just a friend or a good police captain would work. So, mortally wounded Jaosn gets taken to a hospital while Batman hunts down Joker, and when Jason realizes that Batman won't put the Joker down he angrily invokes Talia's offer, agreeing to serve her if resurrected.




> Damn right. Jason Todd has got to be his own man, not a brainwashed puppet at any stage of the equation. It'll separate him from Bucky if he's got a real _conflict_ with Bruce's methods- or if we can see some concrete instances of Batman's methods ending badly where Jason's end well (if more violently)
> 
> Also, he really ought to be sincerely heroic, not villainous, and just operating under Punisher rules rather than Batman rules.


I'd still want him antagonistic and to seriously tackle questions about the morality of vigilante executions, manslaughter, et al. I've mentioned this before, but I'd love to have it revealed that Batman was considerably less lethal in the DCEU before Jason's death: when teamed with Dick Grayson, criminals could expect to be rescued from certain death, even with Jason as Robin, but once Jason died, Batman decided that a few criminals could afford to be used as human shields or left to their own grenades, then when MOS happens, Batman adds guns to the Batmobile and starts branding people, leading to a fallout with Dick, who still keeps his hands clean.

So, for Jason and his role in a Batman solo, I'd have him doing the "take over crime" plan from UTRH and state his opinion on why that should work, all while Bruce and Dick attempt to reconcile and figure out who Red Hood is. And there'd be another, more villainous antagonist, like Hugo Strange, Bane, Black Mask, Nyssa, etc., who ends up being targeted by both Red Hood and Nightwing and Batman. But once Bruce realizes who Jason is (after some actual detective work), he also sees that Jason's criminal groups prove his plan won't work; Jason won't tolerate violent crime targeting innocent people, yet that's an intrinsic part of a kingpin's life. So Bruce deploys Nightwing to prove this to Jason and try and rally him to take on the main threat. So we get to see Nightwing show his greater degree of empathy, maintain a tension between Jason and Bruce, and transition Jason from antagonist to protagonist without totally reversing his character.

----------


## Adekis

Personally, if I was boss of the world and placed in charge of a DC "ultimate universe" or in charge of adapting Jason to film, I'd just have the Joker try to kill him and fail.

A few years later, Jason leaves Batman's employ and becomes Red Hood because he decides that guns, killing and brutality are a more efficient way of cleaning up the city than Batman's restraint.

I'm a pretty big proponent of dead meaning *dead*, so I wouldn't put him in a Lazarus pit or anything, I'd just construct a scenario where Jason's trapped in the warehouse rigged to explode, being beaten with a crowbar, and somehow manages to get Mr. J's gun (or Harley's) and escape through the wonderful magic of almost shooting Joker in the face. This begins his path toward ascension to Punisher status.

----------


## LP22

Am I the only one who wants Jason to form a new outsiders team I belive Jay will feat that team like a glove.

----------


## Aioros22

> He does though? There's nothing in the game that shows Jason actually acting by himself nor "breaking free" from the Joker's programming. Rather, he just changes one directive (Joker's) for another (Batman's) In fact, the DLC is so disjointed for the main game narrative that it doesn't seem logical for Red Hood and AK to be the same character.


We totally have different views on the same game then. The Boss fight with Arkham Knight is all about Batman getting into Jason`s head and "breaking" his AK persona. They aren`t even subtle about it since you know, the AK helmet breaks apart and everything. Even after that until the end you have Jason being and acting confused about what his directive should be. In the end of the game you have the difference. AK wanted to down Batman out of revenge while dealing a harsher justice on the city as a whole. "Red Hood" OTOH saves Batman and by proxis the city using guns. He`s not a terrible different character but his motivations are key. 

He changes yes...and? That should be the natural course of action for the character. Maybe you perceived it was crammed in the game happening one after the other, but it`s a game, not a tv show or minisseries or animated feature. It`s a game. 




> But what is his sort of justice? What drives him to do that? Hell, as the AK he did even worse things to anyone and everyone that crossed his path. Under The Red Hood was clear to show Jason honestly believing his way the best option to help everyone else in the city. In AK there's nothing of the sort, he's just randomly killing villains just because.


UTRH didn`t have a Jason dealing with conditioning after being tortured for years.




> Not really, for  all the points godisawesome detailed before. The narrative is flawed since its conception and it doesn't offer anything really worth to the mythos, rather it butchers them for no good reason.


He`s not wrong but most of the mentions are gameplay issues. 

It doesn`t to me detract about whether the _storytelling potential_ for a Red Hood origin is good or not. You clearly don`t like a Red Hood that doesn`t come from another place whereas I don`t feel it does a disservice to Jason`s character to endure what he did and still come out doing what he should and then still stick with his own identity regardless of Batman or Joker. That`s an enduring aspect of Jason`s personality that should come across in every media and gladly it has. 

I like this idea. It`s darker, it`s realistic in a Graphic Novel sense and quite frankly I enjoy the novelty of a story where Jason didn`t have to die for it to go on. And I also love UTRH (the animated moreso) and what it brought us. 




> We actually never see him show compassion to Barbara (and in any case, using her as bait negates any kindness he might have shown). He didn't spare Harley, he threatened her into collaborating with him and Scarecrow.


Alright, you don`t feel Tomasi did anything for him as AK. What about the flashbacks of Jason`s younger/Robin days? Did you felt he failed to make him sympathetic at all?




> And yes, that is exactly the problem, there's nothing more on his characterization than his obsession with Batman.


I don`t feel it`s a major problem. I don`t even see it as a major plot issue. As "Arkham Knight", Jason is conditioned by the Joker. He _should_ be absolutely obessesed about Batman. It doesn`t mean he can`t show something else but that is pretty much the hook of it. 




> The series is supposed to provide us with te insight on Jason's character that the game failed to offer, so, if you're gonna simply dismiss it you don't have much left to understand Jason's character.


I`m not dismissing the characterization in the series. I`m pointing out that despite what it achieves or not, the basic origin presented in the game: a Jason that doesn`t die only to be tortured for years and return to break control, it`s a general narrative idea  that got potential and can stand on it`s own two legs. The rest is a matter of detail and mechanics. The basic storytelling of this origin got huge potential, so it turns into a matter of throwing out or expanding and detailing what comes. It`s very basically editable material.

----------


## Aioros22

> Damn right. Jason Todd has got to be his own man, not a brainwashed puppet at any stage of the equation. It'll separate him from Bucky if he's got a real _conflict_ with Bruce's methods


The game doesn`t go there but it doesn`t _not_ go there either. Jason is only a puppet in a scenario where he`s been tortured for years and hasn`t become Red Hood yet. But as seen, he does break free and gets to do the heroic act even if with a sniper rifle.  

I do understand the fans who feel threatned or flat out dislike Joker having any position of power over Jason as this nagging meta commentary on how the character has to be always tied to him, but he`s the main antagonist of both him and Bruce. As long you`re adaptating his "death" or rebirth, Joker is essentially in the story. Might as well enjoy the media exposition and the new flavours it can bring...like everytime they`ll do a Batman origin movie. That`s how myth works, it`s in the retelling.

----------


## Agent Z

I didn't notice this at first when I watched Under The Red Hood, but it seemed pretty strange how the movie showed scenes of Robin Jason being brutal to show signs of his dark turn, while ignoring Bruce's own brutality in the movie.

----------


## Aahz

I just started reread RHatO. And was a little bit comfused when a *"Gathering of the Thirteen"* was mentioned during the Tameran storyline. Does anybody know what this Gathering is and if it was picked up in any other series?




> I didn't notice this at first when I watched Under The Red Hood, but it seemed pretty strange how the movie showed scenes of Robin Jason being brutal to show signs of his dark turn, while ignoring Bruce's own brutality in the movie.


Thats not much different in the comics, just read Batman #414 Batman is in that issue not really much different than Jason later in Diplomats son.

----------


## AJpyro

> I just started reread RHatO. And was a little bit comfused when a *"Gathering of the Thirteen"* was mentioned during the Tameran storyline. Does anybody know what this Gathering is and if it was picked up in any other series?
> 
> 
> Thats not much different in the comics, just read Batman #414 Batman is in that issue not really much different than Jason later in Diplomats son.


Abandoned plotline of Nu52. Like so many other things.

----------


## Aahz

> Abandoned plotline of Nu52. Like so many other things.


Thanks.


An other question. What do you think of Jason behaviour in Robin war. He was of the 4 real Robins he was somehow the only one who was realy pro-"We are Robin Movement", had no problem with letting the Kids fight against the court and had the opinuon that to become Robin you have to be trained by Bruce. Wasn't that quite out of character, pre flashpoint he seemed to be in general against the concept of teen crime fighters, and didn't had such a high opinion of Bruce. And I'm also not really sure the if "being Robin is about confidence"-thing was really fitting the fitting statement for him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Thanks.
> 
> 
> An other question. What do you think of Jason behaviour in Robin war. He was of the 4 real Robins he was somehow the only one who was realy pro-"We are Robin Movement", had no problem with letting the Kids fight against the court and had the opinuon that to become Robin you have to be trained by Bruce. Wasn't that quite out of character, pre flashpoint he seemed to be in general against the concept of teen crime fighters, and didn't had such a high opinion of Bruce. And I'm also not really sure the if "being Robin is about confidence"-thing was really fitting the fitting statement for him.


Extremely out of character. 

Lobdell has made pretty clear one of the things Jason wishes the most is having a normal life but that he has resigned himself to never being able to have it. So, is incredibly jarring that he's openly supporting a bunch of untrained kids just like that.

But then again, Robin War was a huge mess from beggining to end.

----------


## oasis1313

> Am I the only one who wants Jason to form a new outsiders team I belive Jay will feat that team like a glove.


Jason can carry a book by himself.  Just "Red Hood" and nobody else.  Let him cut loose without any excess baggage.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason has been added at the Lego DC Superheroes database 

http://www.lego.com/en-us/dccomicssu...8fb017747c4298

His bio is pretty interesting, even moreso the fact he's billed as hero. A first for him 




> Once the rough-and-tumble sidekick to Batman as the second Robin, Jason Todd has returned as Red Hood. Although his methods are sometimes questionable, Red Hood is a tough hero who will do anything to protect his friends and partners.

----------


## REAL

Another great variant by Matteo Scalera.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh man, it's so damn cool.

----------


## G-Potion

Badass! Hope this guy draws more RHATO stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason can carry a book by himself.  Just "Red Hood" and nobody else.  Let him cut loose without any excess baggage.


Not opposed to a Red Hood solo book, but I think the reason Jason was allowed to developed as a character since the New52 was because of the people he surrounded himself with, and I trust him to continue to do so with Artemis and Bizzaro around, so yay, team book!

----------


## JasonTodd428

That's a nice variant cover there. I wouldn't mind seeing him do interiors for the book actually.




> Not opposed to a Red Hood solo book, but I think the reason Jason was allowed to developed as a character since the New52 was because of the people he surrounded himself with, and I trust him to continue to do so with Artemis and Bizzaro around, so yay, team book!


I agree with you there. I'm not opposed to a solo Red Hood book either but I like him having a team to work with. He never really had that before the reboot happened due to his sudden death and at the time of the reboot I felt like he needed that support structure to rebuild himself from. He's still struggling with some issues and so he still needs that structure to help him get through that. I also think there is a lot of character development for him can happen in that type of setting as opposed to a solo setting.

----------


## Aahz

The other reason he doesn't have a solo might be that he is under the control of the Superman office, and as solo hero he probably had to return to the batman office (this is probably also the reason Damian doesn't have a solo after rebirth).

But I also think that he could carry a solo with a less controversial writer. (The is for some reason lots of hate for Lobdells work).

----------


## Rise

Hey guys, was Catherine Todd pregnant in the 0 issue? If she was, then what happened to the baby? And who's the girl who was crying at Jason's grave?

----------


## REAL

From what I hear (and I don't know if it's true) that Catherine was pregnant and the crying girl was supposed to be Jason's little sister. 

Lobdell was actually planning on making her join the Outlaws, but the plan get scratched after he left the book.

----------


## Rise

Wait, what? Jason was supposed to have a little sister? 

Oh man, that would have been really interesting plot  :Frown: .

----------


## REAL

Indeed, it's really shame that it get scratched. 

Hey Rise, what did you pick from Rebirth line?

----------


## Rise

All the rebirth books so far. What about you?

----------


## REAL

Superman 
Action Comics 
Aquaman

Did Green Arrow get better? The rebirth issue didn't impress me.

----------


## Rise

It seems promising, but who knows. The dialogue is quite cringe worthy if we begin honset. 

I'm actually planning to drop Detective Comics though.

----------


## REAL

I heard that Tynion is copying the Arkham Knight story. Is that true?

----------


## Rise

Yep. The art is actually the reason that made it enjoyable for me. Other than that, it's really not worth the read. 

What else you planning to read?

----------


## REAL

Beside Red Hood? The Superman line seems very interesting and I am planning to read them all except for supergirl. 

I am also planning to pick up Trinity, All star Batman and the Lantern books. 

So this my pull list:
Red Hood and the Outlaws 
Superman 
Action Comics 
Superwoman 
The new Super-Man
All star Batman 
Aquaman 
Trinity 
Green Lanterns 
Hal Jordan and the GLC

----------


## Rise

Interesting list  :Big Grin: . 

I will try all Rebirth issues, but I probably drop most of them though. 

What made you read comics, REAL?

----------


## REAL

Red Hood was the reason to be honest. I am actually new fan.

----------


## Rise

Really? So you decided to read comics after watching the UtRH movie?

----------


## REAL

Nope. I just watched the movie this year. 

I actually know about Jason before he became Red Hood.

----------


## Rise

Why are you being ambiguous? Do tell!

----------


## REAL

Well, when I was kid I used to watch batman and was curious about who the heck is this random kid who keep following batman around and pretty much being useless. So I decided to search the net to find out more about him and this the moment where I discovered that Robin wasn't his actual name and there were three of them and Jason was the one who catch my eyes. The fact that he got killed and how different he was compared to the other two made him very interesting to me, but he was dead and I am still not interested in comics. 

It wasn't until years later when I heard some guys talking about him and was like "Wait, did he say Jason Todd? The name seem familiar..". And then I discovered that he returned  as Red Hood and he is angery at batman and was like cool! And RHATO become my first comic.

----------


## Rise

Your story is really unusual! But why you didn't start with  under the red hood?

----------


## REAL

Didn't feel the need to read it first because I have already read about it in wiki and I decided that if I liked his recent appearances, then I will read his old stories. 

I am actually glad that I started with RHATO because it was quite friendly to new readers and didn't require me to have a previous knowledge about the characters to understand what the heck is going on.

----------


## Rise

Did you finish reading all Jason stories?

----------


## REAL

Most, but not all. Some I just simply ignored.

----------


## Rise

Can you help me out? I want to read all of Jason stories, , but his time line pretty confusing  :Frown: .

----------


## REAL

Sure, just give me few minutes.

*Edit:*

*Robin:
Pre-crisis:*
Batman 357-403
'Tec 524-566
Superman Annual 11 (some writers used it as canon for N52 Jason)     
New Teen Titans 18-31 (some writers used it as canon for post-crisis Jason)  

*Post-Crisis:*
Batman: Second Chances 
DC Retroactive Batman The 80s
'Tec 569-582 (skip 575-578) 
Legends                                            
The Cult 
Gotham Knight 43
The diplomat Son 
Death in the family

*Red Hood:
Post-Crisis:*
Under The Red Hood 
Red Hood: Lost Days 
Countdown to the Final Crisis 
Countdown Presents: The search for Ray Palmer 
Battle for the Cowl 
Batman and Robin: Revenge of the Red Hood 
Batman and Robin: The Streets Run Red 
Batman and Robin Convergence 

*Flashpoint:*
The world of Flashpoint 2

*New 52:* 
Origins: Batman 0 & Secret Origins 5
Red Hood and the Outlaw
Red Hood/Arsenal 

*Batfamily events:*
Night of the Owls
Death of the family 
Batman Eternal 
Robin Raises   
Endgame (brief appearance) 
Robin War 
Batman and Robin Eternal

*Guest appearances:*
Batman and Robin 10-12
Action Comics 34   
Supergirl 35               
Batman/Superman Annual 1     
Justice League 19
Grayson 12
Batman/Superman 25-27
Deathstroke 15-17

*Rebirth:*
Red Hood and the Outlaws

*AUs:*
Arkham Knight 
Arkham Knight Genesis 
Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade

----------


## Rise

Seriously thank you, REAL!

----------


## Rise

https://mobile.twitter.com/ComicBook...88895587868672

Would you guys watch a Red Hood movie?  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

Is countdown worth reading? I hear it is awefull.

I would also add:
Green Arrow 69-72
Outsiders 44-46+Annual
Nightwing Year: One
Deadman: Dead Again

----------


## darkseidpwns

Yes Countdown is absolutely awful if you are a fan of 99.9% of DC but if you're looking to read it for Jason then it's not so bad.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://mobile.twitter.com/ComicBook...88895587868672
> 
> Would you guys watch a Red Hood movie?



Hell yes! Watch, rewatch till I can recite the whole thing in my sleep.  :Cool: 




> Is countdown worth reading? I hear it is awefull.


A pain to read imo, but I do love all the Jason moments. Very good character work, nicely balanced between being on the heroes' side and still having his own voice and priority. Made me feel sorry for him at the end though.

----------


## REAL

> https://mobile.twitter.com/ComicBook...88895587868672
> 
> Would you guys watch a Red Hood movie?


*@abhihastak
@ComicBookNOW watch it,rewatch it,memorise it, recite it like a poem
*
This guy is sure a hardcore. 

And to answer your question, *Rise*. Yup, it's probably would the only superhero movie that I would watch in cinema.

----------


## Rise

REAL!!  :Big Grin: 

Wait, you actually never saw a superhero movie in cinema?

----------


## REAL

Nope. I actually hardly go to the cinema nowadays.

----------


## Agent Z

So why did Morrison retcon Jason into being a redhead in his run? Wouldn't it have made sense to say he was originally blonde like his pre-crisis version?

----------


## Rise

DCEU seems promising. Give it a chance, REAL.  :Mad: 

Wait, did we waste another page just you and me talking?

----------


## REAL

> DCEU seems promising. Give it a chance, REAL.


Implying that economy survive long enough for dceu to build their universe. 




> Wait, did we waste another page just you and me talking?



Now that you mention it.....




> So why did Morrison retcon Jason into being a redhead in his run? Wouldn't it have made sense to say he was originally blonde like his pre-crisis version?


Neither actually make sense because post crisis Jason has a black hair. Unless Morrison implying that poor kid like Jason spent his childhood dyeing his hair black.

----------


## Rise

You seriously have no chill, REAL. 

I declare us the dynamic duo of CBR. JAN AND JUN!!

----------


## REAL

Nonsense, my friends always complain about how chill I am. 

Why Jan and Jun tho?

----------


## Rise

Because of our join date  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

Oh yeah, that's actually pretty smart names for us. 

Btw, have you finished reading rhato?

----------


## godisawesome

> So why did Morrison retcon Jason into being a redhead in his run? Wouldn't it have made sense to say he was originally blonde like his pre-crisis version?


It was part of his decisions to play Jason Todd as a meta commentary on Batman's use of "replacement" sidekicks and his overall mocking of Jason's place as the red-headed stepchild of the family. He had Jason specifically mention that Bruce "forced" him to dye his red hair black to protect the idea of Robin being one person. 

It was all a bit heavy handed and not really strong in terms of being organic characterization.

----------


## Aahz

It was actually quite typical for Morrison to bring stuff from other continuities in and changing characters the way he needed it for his stories, regardless if it fits into the canon of the current continuity and without doing proper research.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m not sure I`d call it lack of proper research even. Ever since his Animal Man, Morrison is an advocate of continuity being fluid and everything counting for the story you want to prop.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason has been added at the Lego DC Superheroes database 
> 
> http://www.lego.com/en-us/dccomicssu...8fb017747c4298
> 
> His bio is pretty interesting, even moreso the fact he's billed as hero. A first for him


Hey, that`s pretty cool! 

The Matteo variant is a thing of visual striking beauty. Really liking the redesigned "Hood".

----------


## Aahz

> I`m not sure I`d call it lack of proper research even.


Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that he took parts of old stories from other continuities, changed them in a way it fitted his story and ignored the established canon.

Thats some thing you can do if you write elsewhere stories, but not in the main continuity.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #3

(W) Lobdell (A) Dexter Soy (CA) Giuseppe Camuncoli, Cam Smith (CA) Matteo Scalera
Dark Trinity part three! Red Hood and Artemis set aside their differences when they discover the powerful weapon that Black Mask has been after: a fully-formed clone of Superman! But what should they do with it? They cant possibly let something this powerful fall into the hands of the nefarious Black Mask, and perhaps if they play their cards right, he could become a powerful allybut is the risk worth the reward?
In Shops: Oct 12, 2016
SRP: $2.99

----------


## AJpyro

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #3
> 
> (W) Lobdell (A) Dexter Soy (CA) Giuseppe Camuncoli, Cam Smith (CA) Matteo Scalera
> “Dark Trinity” part three! Red Hood and Artemis set aside their differences when they discover the powerful weapon that Black Mask has been after: a fully-formed clone of Superman! But what should they do with it? They can’t possibly let something this powerful fall into the hands of the nefarious Black Mask, and perhaps if they play their cards right, he could become a powerful ally…but is the risk worth the reward?
> In Shops: Oct 12, 2016
> SRP: $2.99


As much as I love this image, does no one care about spoilers anymore?

----------


## Aioros22

> Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that he took parts of old stories from other continuities, changed them in a way it fitted his story and ignored the established canon.
> 
> Thats some thing you can do if you write elsewhere stories, but not in the main continuity.


That`s true. I admit I let it slide with him a tad because it`s _Grant Morrison_. That and his stories and the fluid continuity he sets are kind of self contained. They don`t tend to stick unless _he`s_ the one writting it.




> As much as I love this image, does no one care about spoilers anymore?


If the reason he`s going undercover is because Black Mask is manufacturing a major weapon that ends up being Bizarro...yeah, there`s no need to spoil it in advance.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If the reason he`s going undercover is because Black Mask is manufacturing a major weapon that ends up being Bizarro...yeah, there`s no need to spoil it in advance.


I'm going to guess that there's more to it than just that and that Bizzaro might only be a part of what Black Mask has going on.

----------


## Aioros22

I certainly hope so. At least the covers and respective variants have been ACE. Among the best of the bat line so far.

----------


## Aioros22

Ahaha Bat-Go!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e4a0939eb...0o6_r1_500.gif

----------


## REAL

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #3
> 
> (W) Lobdell (A) Dexter Soy (CA) Giuseppe Camuncoli, Cam Smith (CA) Matteo Scalera
> Dark Trinity part three! Red Hood and Artemis set aside their differences when they discover the powerful weapon that Black Mask has been after: a fully-formed clone of Superman! But what should they do with it? They cant possibly let something this powerful fall into the hands of the nefarious Black Mask, and perhaps if they play their cards right, he could become a powerful allybut is the risk worth the reward?
> In Shops: Oct 12, 2016
> SRP: $2.99


I am really interested in seeing how Lobdell will handle Black Mask, Artemis and Bizarro.

----------


## Rise

> Have your finished reading rhato?


I have and I enjoyed it a lot. 

It's made me really excited to read Red Hood/Arsenal and finish it before RHATO REBIRTH start, but I can't now  :Frown:

----------


## REAL

There's youtube channel that done a full summary of RH/A in multiple videos. It's really good and the guy in charge has a real talent in storytelling.

----------


## Rise

REAL, I truly mean it when I say thank you. 

You have been very helpful since I came here no matter how annoying I'm. So again, thank you.

----------


## REAL

Don't embarrass me, *Rise*. It's not like I did anything worth mentioning. 

Beside, you are not annoying all and I really do enjoy discussing things with you.

----------


## Rise

Me too  :Smile:  

Hey, Jan. What's your expectations for RHATO REBIRTH?

----------


## REAL

Nothing much to be honest. I just hope that the book be good and keep the fun tone.

----------


## Rise

What do you think about Jason being in the batfamily? Do you think he should cut ties with them or keep the friendly relationship?

----------


## REAL

Keep the friendly relationship. Jason interactions with the batfamily are gold and the reason why I even bother with their events. 

I actually don't have a problem with him being in the batfamily and I think it's ridiculous how some people complain about that. My problem tho on how the bat office keep handling Jason and the many crossovers which hurt rhato story's flow a lot.

----------


## Rise

I noticed the poor handling of Jason from the bat office which makes me wonder, do they hate him? Or simply don't know how to handle him?

----------


## REAL

I don't think it's matter of hate. 

Jason is the least protected character out of all Robins which makes him the one who get the short end of the stick most of times. The fact that he is in the Superman office and not the bat office made the bat writers less concerned about how to handle him.

----------


## Rise

That still don't give them the right to treat him that bad. If anything, it's really show how incompetent they are by not doing their studies in the character which will not take a lot of time.

----------


## Aioros22

They haven`t threat him that bad. In a certain way even Dick has had poor characterization in the events with Tim having his worst outside the events. 

Damian is by far the most protected of the boys.

----------


## Aahz

The strange thing is that Tynion actually wrote actually ~10 issues of RHatO, but completely ignores what he established there when he writes him in the cross overs.

I think a big problem is that Jason was always written very inconsistent so that there writers don't really have a clear reference.

The other problem is that it often feels like he is just in the stories because he is part of the Batfamily, and that the writers don't really have storylines or subplots for him. They also seem to avoid to have conflict between him and the other Batfamily members over his different moral code, and seem not willing to let him out perform other Batfamily members, let them acknowledge that he is good at something or present him in a somehow positive way.

----------


## REAL

> That still don't give them the right to treat him that bad. If anything, it's really show how incompetent they are by not doing their studies in the character which will not take a lot of time.


I am not saying it does and I don't think they treat him that bad either like *Aioros22* already said. Both Snyder and Tomasi write him pretty well and I enjoyed a lot of Jason's moments in RW, BE and BRE. The biggest problem is how inconsistent they are with him and it's more of the group editor fault than the writers.

----------


## Rise

What do you suggest they do to fix their problems with Jason?

----------


## REAL

They should acknowledge what Lobdell already did with him instead of ignoring it. Lobdell after all has been writing Jason since N52 started and still writing him. 

I don't mind if they added their own flavors in him like how Jason love quoting books (which I totally like it), but they shouldn't make him completely different person from how he is in his own book.

----------


## Godlike13

They should get somebody else on his book then go from there. Make his book not ignorable, instead of letting it rot in mediocrity and mockery with Lobdell.

----------


## Agent Z

I don't see how Jason being in the Batfamily is any worse than Selina, Talia or Nygma being allies to Bruce.

----------


## Rise

Mediocrity and mockery? I strongly disagree because I like what Lobdell has done with Jason and I don't find it ignoble at all.

----------


## Aahz

> They haven`t threat him that bad. In a certain way even Dick has had poor characterization in the events with Tim having his worst outside the events.


Thing is just that Dick and Tim have at least kind of established roles in the family, and established areas where they shine, Dick as leader, best acrobat and the most experienced, Tim as the super detective, hacker and the smartest Robin, it is not always shown in the stories but it comes up often enough.
Jason doesn't really have that. It seems sometimes that that they have want to push him as the fighter but they seem to hesitate to really go through with it.

Nice example for the lack of a role is imo B&RE #3+#4, where Dick goes to rescue Bruce from mothers "kids", Tim stays on the Batcomputer and plays "Oracle" while Jason is left behind with nothing to do and starts working on his motor bike.




> Damian is by far the most protected of the boys.


Thats mainly because he hardly appears out side of his own book. And if he is usually (like in Robin War and Batman inc.) one of the central characters. He has some gest appearances where he felt really out of charcters, but these were mainly in relatively minor stories.




> What do you suggest they do to fix their problems with Jason?


Personally I think they should handle him more like Midnighter (without the LGBT part of course), a guy you call in because you need him but you don't necessary want to have around. 
When it come to his interaction/dynamic with the other Batfamily members I would write him more as the stoic guy, like Tiger or Dre (from We Are Robin) with a little bit more dark humor.




> Mediocrity and mockery? I strongly disagree because I like what Lobdell has done with Jason and I don't find it ignoble at all.


I like Lobdells take on Jason, especially in RH/A. But the most of the stories/plots haven't been that great. The sofar biggest story arc was actually Tynions.

----------


## Godlike13

> Mediocrity and mockery? I strongly disagree because I like what Lobdell has done with Jason and I don't find it ignoble at all.


Which is your right. But as someone said, Lobdell has been writing Jason since N52 started. I think at this point most readers have made up their minds about his Red Hood, and there is no reason for them to think anything is really gonna be different with yet another Red Hood book with him. Its not like Lobdell was doing anything particularly noteworthy given any of the usual scales. 
The prospect of him still writing Red Hood at this point is just boring. If they want his book to be acknowledged, and for whats done with the characters in it to not be ignored, then they should have it do something to warrant such acknowledgment. Give readers and other creators a reason not to be quick to dismiss and ignore it. More Lobdell after 5 years isn't gonna do it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Honestly, the problem wasn't Lobdell but DC's overall lack of promotion of RHATO and specially RH/A.

People are actually really excited by the new RHATO thanks to having actual promotion and a great premise. The only ones who aren't excited are those who have made their minds already about Lobdell. And thus, they will find reasons to complain regardless the actual quality of the book.

----------


## REAL

> Which is your right. But as someone said, Lobdell has been writing Jason since N52 started. I think at this point most readers have made up their minds about his Red Hood, and there is no reason for them to think anything is really gonna be different with yet another Red Hood book with him. Its not like Lobdell was doing anything particularly noteworthy given any of the usual scales. 
> The prospect of him still writing Red Hood at this point is just boring. If they want his book to be acknowledged, and for whats done with the characters in it to not be ignored, then they should have it do something to warrant such acknowledgment.


Having a new writer would have been interesting, but I appreciate what Lobdell has been doing so far. 

What a lot of people don't realize that Jason is not easy to write and definitely not safe character. His fanbase aren't the type who will buy everything he is in just to support him like a lot of fans do with their favorite. Not to mention that a lot have their own ideas for what they want Jason to be and will not accept anything else thanks to the mess that dc created in pre-Flashpoint. 

And then, there is his vocal haters who already made up their mind that will not like anything he is in whether it was good or bad. It's actually funny how they are the one who consistently bitch about RHATO while Jason's fans who don't like it simply ignore it. 




> Give other creators a reason not to be quick to dismiss and ignore it.


Implying that the _other_ creators actually give us a reason to not dismiss and ignore their own writing of Jason. Until they actually do, then they can have the right to dismiss what Lobdell did.

----------


## Agent Z

I think Lobdell's writing of Jason was okay for the most part. The issues with Red Hood and the Outlaws seemed to be more about how Roy and Kory were written.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is something many people fails to understand. Lobdell's characterization of Jason hinges on his interaction with his co-stars. Even if they are the ones having the spotlight, Jason has a subtly and constant development in the background (just look at the way he talks about Roy in RHATO's first issue with RH/A last issue to see what I mean) but many people downright dismiss all ofthis simply because they don't bother to look beyond the surface.

----------


## G-Potion

> Implying that the _other_ creators actually give us a reason to not dismiss and ignore their own writing of Jason. Until they actually do, then they can have the right to dismiss what Lobdell did.


I agree. While I enjoy some of Jason's appearances in Batfam events, it's mainly because of some quirks the other creators gave him that I think fits his personality. But none has shown any deeper look into his psyche. I don't think their version of Jason has anything to do with outright dismissal of Lobdell's take because they think his is mediocre; on the other hand, it looks to me like the writers just don't care enough about the character to get his complexity. And if that's the case, I'm happy Lobdell stays, I'm happy with the new RHATO premise. I also think Jason has better appearances in books from the Superman office, so if not Lobdell, I'd prefer Greg Pak to write Jason over all BE/BRE/RW writers. 

By the way, it's not fair to pin this on Lobdell's mediocrity and whatnot when other writers also happily ignore Grayson and went with their versions of Dick in Starfire as well as Batgirl.

As for the fans... if Tumblr is anything to go by, I really don't need Red Hood book to be approved by them. It might be the day I drop the book if that happened.

----------


## oasis1313

I don't think Jason should hang with the Bat-Family that much, maybe grudgingly in the rare cross-over.  I think he would see the rest of them as weak, with their silly fear of guns, etc.  Jason is the ex-Robin with no brakes, the baddest bad-ass of them all.  Dick might beat you up and apologize afterward.  Tim would be too chicken to beat you up.  Bruce probably has Damian probably locked up in his room so he's not able to come beat you up.  Jason is the one who WILL beat you up, then leave your sorry azz strung up in an alley.

----------


## godisawesome

> That is something many people fails to understand. Lobdell's characterization of Jason hinges on his interaction with his co-stars. Even if they are the ones having the spotlight, Jason has a subtly and constant development in the background (just look at the way he talks about Roy in RHATO's first issue with RH/A last issue to see what I mean) but many people downright dismiss all ofthis simply because they don't bother to look beyond the surface.


I think it's also a matter of the context for that subtlety that lessens the impact for some. 

(I'm going to start making some cross references between Lobdell (and some of his successors) writing on that Teen Titans book that both turned a lot of fans against him and that you could tell he was kind of chained to in spite of wanting out for over 12 issues, but please bear with me.)

Jason's co-stars and supporting cast throughout the majority of his books under Lobdell have been extraordinary individuals, and they've been portrayed in a rather casual way with that as well. Roy does some really impressive stuff with tech, Kory was hanging out and loaning them her spaceship while still occaisionally displaying the wardrobe of a model just 'cause, that weird smoke girl with the white hair was an effective immortal, and from what I heard, Joker's Daughter just kind of showed up because editorial thought that would help the book. Jason may have a great, somewhat revealing rapport with those characters, but notice anything about them? None of them are normal. And in both books that Lobdell wrote featuring ex-Robins, he seemed to never really showcase the character opposite a consistent regular person in supporting cast.

Well, almost; we had that flight attendant with the hots for Jason, and a lot of people actually liked that character. And then she was gone, and something was kind of missing to some readers. That's because normal people provide a sense of scale and contrast that highlights what makes the protagonist extraordinary. The lack of even the brief appearance of that kind of character is part of the reason why Lobdell, and Pfeiffer after him, failed to make the Teen Titans work. Tim was always "on the clock", with the result that a lot of readers saw him as a shallow parody of himself, and Jason, while getting more relaxation time, doesn't seem to have much of a regular life, even his favorite dive bar is notorious as a place where super-hitmen hang out.

And that's because Lobdell seems to write as a bit of a throwback to the 90's era X-books and Image comics, and a lot of readers, right or wrong, read that style as being shallow and tainted by a lack of self-awareness. And you could kind of tell that's a major difference in tastes of some readers  and creators. Notice that Tynion's run on RHATO (which, for the record, I'm a rare fan of) poked a lot of fun at how OTT everything seemed to be: Jason's amnesia featured him being freaked out and worried about all the stuff that he normally wouldn't blink an eyelid at, and Roy's one man assault on the LOA involved parodying Liefeldian designs and having Roy's inventiveness played for laughs as much as drama. And the elements of that story that suffered the most were the Untitled and the other elements of Lobdell's writing that existed in a more "uncanny" world than the Bat-universe. Heck you could argue the entire purpose of that arc was to try and bury the All Caste plotlines quickly using a tired cliche of the Chosen One to match the tired cliche of Mysterious Powerful Immortals.

I'm one of those guys who only owns a few Lobdell penned issues, and the only ones I enjoy are the ones that are down to Earth: the hospital shootout with Suzie Q, and the Talon fight. I'm a guy who rolls his eyes whenever I hear about the "All-Blades", or about Jason training with a mystical immortal Not-Yoda or hear people try and sell me on the book having a great relationship between the team mates, because that all a sounds like the same elements that I found boring in Teen Titans even before it went off the rails. I'm a guy who wants to see Jason in a smaller, quieter setting, like sharing drinks with an unsuspecting Harvey Bullock while trying to scare some punk kid straight so he doesn't follow Jason's initial path, while wielding knifes that are extraordinary but still mundane at their core, and taking on threats that are genuinely intimidated by guns, where there's some grit and Jason crashes in an apartment and grabs some coffee after taking down some supervillain. I want that tighter hold to the possible, with a bit less impossible, to make it clear why he's cool.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't think Jason should hang with the Bat-Family that much, maybe grudgingly in the rare cross-over.  I think he would see the rest of them as weak, with their silly fear of guns, etc.  Jason is the ex-Robin with no brakes, the baddest bad-ass of them all.  Dick might beat you up and apologize afterward.  Tim would be too chicken to beat you up.  Bruce probably has Damian probably locked up in his room so he's not able to come beat you up.  Jason is the one who WILL beat you up, then leave your sorry azz strung up in an alley.


See, this is the kind of mentality I find problematic for Jason as character. It essentially strips down from any kind of nuance he could have and reduce him to a two dimensional angsty badass that punch first, asks questions never. That can be fine every now and then but is not a solid foundation for a long lasting character. Or at least, one you can take seriously. 




> I think it's also a matter of the context for that subtlety that lessens the impact for some. 
> 
> (I'm going to start making some cross references between Lobdell (and some of his successors) writing on that Teen Titans book that both turned a lot of fans against him and that you could tell he was kind of chained to in spite of wanting out for over 12 issues, but please bear with me.)
> 
> Jason's co-stars and supporting cast throughout the majority of his books under Lobdell have been extraordinary individuals, and they've been portrayed in a rather casual way with that as well. Roy does some really impressive stuff with tech, Kory was hanging out and loaning them her spaceship while still occaisionally displaying the wardrobe of a model just 'cause, that weird smoke girl with the white hair was an effective immortal, and from what I heard, Joker's Daughter just kind of showed up because editorial thought that would help the book. Jason may have a great, somewhat revealing rapport with those characters, but notice anything about them? None of them are normal. And in both books that Lobdell wrote featuring ex-Robins, he seemed to never really showcase the character opposite a consistent regular person in supporting cast.
> 
> Well, almost; we had that flight attendant with the hots for Jason, and a lot of people actually liked that character. And then she was gone, and something was kind of missing to some readers. That's because normal people provide a sense of scale and contrast that highlights what makes the protagonist extraordinary. The lack of even the brief appearance of that kind of character is part of the reason why Lobdell, and Pfeiffer after him, failed to make the Teen Titans work. Tim was always "on the clock", with the result that a lot of readers saw him as a shallow parody of himself, and Jason, while getting more relaxation time, doesn't seem to have much of a regular life, even his favorite dive bar is notorious as a place where super-hitmen hang out.
> 
> And that's because Lobdell seems to write as a bit of a throwback to the 90's era X-books and Image comics, and a lot of readers, right or wrong, read that style as being shallow and tainted by a lack of self-awareness. And you could kind of tell that's a major difference in tastes of some readers  and creators. Notice that Tynion's run on RHATO (which, for the record, I'm a rare fan of) poked a lot of fun at how OTT everything seemed to be: Jason's amnesia featured him being freaked out and worried about all the stuff that he normally wouldn't blink an eyelid at, and Roy's one man assault on the LOA involved parodying Liefeldian designs and having Roy's inventiveness played for laughs as much as drama. And the elements of that story that suffered the most were the Untitled and the other elements of Lobdell's writing that existed in a more "uncanny" world than the Bat-universe. Heck you could argue the entire purpose of that arc was to try and bury the All Caste plotlines quickly using a tired cliche of the Chosen One to match the tired cliche of Mysterious Powerful Immortals.
> ...


See, that is something you totally missed from Lobdell's work. Jason's lack of normalcy in his life is a _plot point_ Under Lobdell Jason throws himself into any kind of situations with abandon because that helps him to face the reality he's not a normal person. And that is a serious concern for him since deep down, there's nothing he would like more than being able to walk away from "super heroing" and have a normal life. By the time of RH/A Jason has resigned himself to the idea of not being able to walk away from it, that is why he looked for Roy again, having a friend is the closest thing he has to normalcy.

But again, that is not something is said clearly by the dialogue (except for a couple of ocassions), is something that is pieced together little a little through the whole series' run.

----------


## godisawesome

Actually, I think I took that fact as a natural contingent of a comic series featuring an ex-Robin: Grayson featured Dick Grayson dealing with Spyral and an all-girls academy for assassins, and my favorite ex-Robin book, the Yost and then Nicieza penned Red Robin series, featured Tim Drake as an emancipated minor masquerading as a corporate "Super-Boy" faking a spinal injury while entering VR worlds and going headfirst into international assassination competitions. And at least in Red Robin, Tim came fully to grips with the fact his "normal" life was a facade, albeit one where he still let his guard down and hung out with Ives and Tam. And the fact of the matter is that most superhero books feature that theme...

...What's off-putting to some people (again, it's strictly a matter of taste) is the _way_ Lobdell executes the concept, the way it's a bit more casual and downplayed while simulataneously going big on everything else. It's like when Lobdell was writing Superman and some people just found his style not to their liking; stuff like Superman fighting alien invaders and defeating them in a cold open at the start of a story by having (off-panel) thrown some stuff in the air to hit them at the right point, or had a page introducing Lois Lane have a small essay describing how awesome she is. The former, to its supporters, displays a confident hero, while to its critics, it damages the credibility of any villain in the series and kills suspense. The latter simply deals with the age old debate about when writing internal monologues goes too far; get it right, and you've got concrete support for years, do it wrong, and you're a purple prose writer.

Again, I'm using Lobdell's bad writing on TT to try and argue here, but let's just judge it as a worst case scenario: there was a lot of writing in those Teen Titans arcs that tried to sell everyone coming together and becoming friends and teammates, but to a lot of the fans, the only real time that was well played was in the Mysterious Island issues. Every other attempt Lobdell made to have characters connect was seen as a cheap gimmick and horribly written, but on an issue by issue basis it wasn't that bad; it's just that holistically, everyone came off as shallow because we never got to see different sides of the characters.

Lobdell's Jason is pretty mellow. I like that. But I like that in part because I got to see him be mellow with the flight attendant while out on a regular date while also seeing him be mellow with Starfire. He wasn't acting like a normal guy at the date, mind you, with his thoughts wandering, but the trappings of normalcy showcased that while he was pretending and portraying himself as normal, his attitude _was_ sincere. Most Bat-fans, and I'd argue most DC fans, are acclimated to that constrast in the same way Spider-Man fans at Marvel are; Lobdell writes more like an X-book, where the entire cast is "uncanny", and it clashes a bit with perceived tastes.

(Though let's be honest here; beyond his stylistic contrasts with DC's generally accepted style, Lobdell's suffering from the problems his New 52 Teen Titans run saddled him with. He's seen as a bit of an editorial Yes-Man operating under an editorial board where editors have a horrible track record of ideas and decrees, and the perception is not entirely without merit. He's also got a bad reputation for writing villains from that same book, since none of the New 52 updates on classic villains [possibly editorial ideas akin to New 52 Lady Shiva] went over well, and most people find Harvest a laughable villain. And the depressing fact is that Lobdell's best work, RHATO and RH/A, are much smaller properties than Teen Titans, so the latter defines his reputation to fans, and his initial hiccups on RHATO's first issue didn't win him any favors there either.)

----------


## Aahz

> Again, I'm using Lobdell's bad writing on TT to try and argue here, but let's just judge it as a worst case scenario: there was a lot of writing in those Teen Titans arcs that tried to sell everyone coming together and becoming friends and teammates, but to a lot of the fans, the only real time that was well played was in the Mysterious Island issues. Every other attempt Lobdell made to have characters connect was seen as a cheap gimmick and horribly written, but on an issue by issue basis it wasn't that bad; it's just that holistically, everyone came off as shallow because we never got to see different sides of the characters.


Imo Teen Titans was doomed from the start. the premise of using basically the same team they had before flashpoint but erasing all history and most of the legacy aspect of the characters was already a bad starting point.
And starting with big action events and have hardly any soap elements to reintroduce the characters made it worse.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason may have a great, somewhat revealing rapport with those characters, but notice anything about them? None of them are normal. And in both books that Lobdell wrote featuring ex-Robins, he seemed to never really showcase the character opposite a consistent regular person in supporting cast.
> 
> Well, almost; we had that flight attendant with the hots for Jason, and a lot of people actually liked that character. And then she was gone, and something was kind of missing to some readers. That's because normal people provide a sense of scale and contrast that highlights what makes the protagonist extraordinary. The lack of even the brief appearance of that kind of character is part of the reason why Lobdell, and Pfeiffer after him, failed to make the Teen Titans work. Tim was always "on the clock", with the result that a lot of readers saw him as a shallow parody of himself, and Jason, while getting more relaxation time, doesn't seem to have much of a regular life, even his favorite dive bar is notorious as a place where super-hitmen hang out.


Don't read Teen Titans so I can't say if what you said is the reason it failed to work but I don't see how people failing to see Jason's character development is Lobdell's fault for not giving him normal people to interact with? Jason is a troubled person, and has stated multiple times that people are better off without him in their lives. I can understand normal people make what Jason does look more extraordinary, but him maturing by befriending and learning from people in his work-circle who also suffered greatly is an organic course as far as I'm concerned. Jason as the end of R/A is different from how he was in the beginning of RHATO, that kind of development can't be said for most characters in the N52.




> And that's because Lobdell seems to write as a bit of a throwback to the 90's era X-books and Image comics, and a lot of readers, right or wrong, read that style as being shallow and tainted by a lack of self-awareness. And you could kind of tell that's a major difference in tastes of some readers and creators. Notice that Tynion's run on RHATO (which, for the record, I'm a rare fan of) poked a lot of fun at how OTT everything seemed to be: Jason's amnesia featured him being freaked out and worried about all the stuff that he normally wouldn't blink an eyelid at, and Roy's one man assault on the LOA involved parodying Liefeldian designs and having Roy's inventiveness played for laughs as much as drama. And the elements of that story that suffered the most were the Untitled and the other elements of Lobdell's writing that existed in a more "uncanny" world than the Bat-universe. Heck you could argue the entire purpose of that arc was to try and bury the All Caste plotlines quickly using a tired cliche of the Chosen One to match the tired cliche of Mysterious Powerful Immortals.


Again, it's a bit much to assume that other writers do things just to purposely make fun or dismiss Lobdell's work. Tynion's BRE was OTT. So was his RHATO. It's one of his thing, no need to blame Lobdell for it. In fact, I don't get why the All-Caste idea as Lobdell wrote it is offensive at all? It has a Chinese vibe, where Taoism came from and a major goal of it is to achieve immortality. So some people actually practice that. Disregarding that, how is it any more "uncanny" than everything that has happened in the Bat-universe? SOB and Grayson all had some fantastical things going on, even if the latter described them as "technology" and not "mystical", they're no more believable. Under Lobdell, the All-Blades weren't OTT powerful, it didn't use to appear out of nowhere, Jason didn't beat Shiva in one panel. What the All-Caste did was give Jason the space away from Batman and the teachings he needed to one day leave his hatred behind. I understand Jason works well under an urban setting but it doesn't mean he has to be restricted to it alone.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think Jason should hang with the Bat-Family that much, maybe grudgingly in the rare cross-over.  I think he would see the rest of them as weak, with their silly fear of guns, etc.  Jason is the ex-Robin with no brakes, the baddest bad-ass of them all.  Dick might beat you up and apologize afterward.  Tim would be too chicken to beat you up.  Bruce probably has Damian probably locked up in his room so he's not able to come beat you up.  Jason is the one who WILL beat you up, then leave your sorry azz strung up in an alley.


I see Jason more as the guy who is (usually) willing to give the villains a second chance but not third. And I really like his M.O. in the Futures End Issue (one of my favoirit new 52 Red Hood stories).




> I'm one of those guys who only owns a few Lobdell penned issues, and the only ones I enjoy are the ones that are down to Earth: the hospital shootout with Suzie Q, and the Talon fight. I'm a guy who rolls his eyes whenever I hear about the "All-Blades", or about Jason training with a mystical immortal Not-Yoda or hear people try and sell me on the book having a great relationship between the team mates, because that all a sounds like the same elements that I found boring in Teen Titans even before it went off the rails. I'm a guy who wants to see Jason in a smaller, quieter setting, like sharing drinks with an unsuspecting Harvey Bullock while trying to scare some punk kid straight so he doesn't follow Jason's initial path, while wielding knifes that are extraordinary but still mundane at their core, and taking on threats that are genuinely intimidated by guns, where there's some grit and Jason crashes in an apartment and grabs some coffee after taking down some supervillain. I want that tighter hold to the possible, with a bit less impossible, to make it clear why he's cool.


I would also like something more down to earth. 

But the Batfamily is in the new 52 (or maybe even since Morrison) much more over the top than before. So Jason being a mystical fighter does fit in. The problem is just that while most of the others keep their power ups in the cross over events, Jason is often kind of written as the average guy who doesn't excel at anything.

----------


## G-Potion

> Again, I'm using Lobdell's bad writing on TT to try and argue here, but let's just judge it as a worst case scenario: there was a lot of writing in those Teen Titans arcs that tried to sell everyone coming together and becoming friends and teammates, but to a lot of the fans, the only real time that was well played was in the Mysterious Island issues. Every other attempt Lobdell made to have characters connect was seen as a cheap gimmick and horribly written, but on an issue by issue basis it wasn't that bad; it's just that holistically, everyone came off as shallow because we never got to see different sides of the characters.


That's exactly what I see people on Tumblr do though. Judging without reading, or reading carefully. People got offended by the first RHATO issues, didn't bother to read the rest and somehow still have things to say against it, based on their knowledge of anything but the book itself. And I have never seen an argument with panels showing where Lobdell did Jason wrong. (Except one where people took Jason's victim blaming mentality as Lobdell's blaming Jason for his death).

----------


## Aioros22

Loving the conversation going (kudos to ye all) but I got to say, the following quotes bring it home to me: 




> I don't think Jason should hang with the Bat-Family that much, maybe grudgingly in the rare cross-over.  I think he would see the rest of them as weak, with their silly fear of guns, etc.  Jason is the ex-Robin with no brakes, the baddest bad-ass of them all.  Dick might beat you up and apologize afterward.  Tim would be too chicken to beat you up.  Bruce probably has Damian probably locked up in his room so he's not able to come beat you up.  Jason is the one who WILL beat you up, then leave your sorry azz strung up in an alley.





> Lobdell's Jason is pretty mellow. I like that. But I like that in part because I got to see him be mellow with the flight attendant while out on a regular date while also seeing him be mellow with Starfire. He wasn't acting like a normal guy at the date, mind you, with his thoughts wandering, but the trappings of normalcy showcased that while he was pretending and portraying himself as normal, his attitude _was_ sincere. Most Bat-fans, and I'd argue most DC fans, are acclimated to that constrast in the same way Spider-Man fans at Marvel are; Lobdell writes more like an X-book, where the entire cast is "uncanny", and it clashes a bit with perceived tastes.





> See, that is something you totally missed from Lobdell's work. Jason's lack of normalcy in his life is a _plot point_ Under Lobdell Jason throws himself into any kind of situations with abandon because that helps him to face the reality he's not a normal person. And that is a serious concern for him since deep down, there's nothing he would like more than being able to walk away from "super heroing" and have a normal life. By the time of RH/A Jason has resigned himself to the idea of not being able to walk away from it, that is why he looked for Roy again, having a friend is the closest thing he has to normalcy.
> 
> But again, that is not something is said clearly by the dialogue (except for a couple of ocassions), is something that is pieced together little a little through the whole series' run.


I dare say that the perfect Jason, depending the situation at hand, lies in the balance. You can have esoteric-Fu but down to Earth. You can have him wanting, wishing, for normalcy but deep down knowing his life isn´t and can`t be normal. His life hasn`t been normal from the start. 

But the struggle between the described polarities is where the biggest potential and character work shine. I`m note sure Loedbell is _the_ guy to make it shine in a way everyone can see (like Dark says, you can see it in his work, but you need to follow the run, which means he loses the readers who already made up their mind on the surface) but I`ll at least respect his ability to show something concrete (likewise Tomasi and Pak in varying degrees).

----------


## Godlike13

Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.

----------


## Agent Z

> Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.


Jason being normal and Jason wanting to be normal are not the same thing. Him being mellow sometimes doesn't exclude him having other moods.

Also, I'm going to be controversial and say there was nothing interesting about Jason when he was originally brought back. He was a shallow, one-dimensional straw man whose only purpose was to validate Bruce's outdated no-kill rule by going in the opposite direction. In that sense, he was little different from Jean-Paul Valley, Magog, the Elite, Artemis, Helena Bertinelli,  under some writers and other similar characters whose only purpose was to be set up and then knocked down to show how much better the iconic heroes were for their supposed nobility. 

For all my problems with Red Hood and the Outlaws, I will say he at least wants to make Jason a character who stands on his own, rather than a foil to prop up Bruce.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.


When Jason came back he wasn't controversial for his actions or ideals, he was controversial because he was one of those "sacred" characters that were _really_ dead. And honestly, your argument is less about Jason's character and more about what _you_ think he should be, that while a respectable opinion is not one that can work in a long term basis. That could work if Jason showed up here an there one or twice every year, not as a character with an ongoing series.

Oh, and if they just bring him for the crossovers to be on the background that is on the writers, not on the character. And given the mediocre track record the Batman offices have with him, I'd rather have them leave Jason alone for the time being.




> Jason being normal and Jason wanting to be normal are not the same thing. Him being mellow sometimes doesn't exclude him having other moods.
> 
> Also, I'm going to be controversial and say there was nothing interesting about Jason when he was originally brought back. He was a shallow, one-dimensional straw man whose only purpose was to validate Bruce's outdated no-kill rule by going in the opposite direction. In that sense, he was little different from Jean-Paul Valley, Magog, the Elite, Artemis, Helena Bertinelli,  under some writers and other similar characters whose only purpose was to be set up and then knocked down to show how much better the iconic heroes were for their supposed nobility. 
> 
> For all my problems with Red Hood and the Outlaws, I will say he at least wants to make Jason a character who stands on his own, rather than a foil to prop up Bruce.


Exactly. Lobdell has done his best to give Jason an actual character, to move him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. And he has been incredible consistent through these past five years, any weaknesses on Jason's characterization comes from other writers and poor handling by the editorial.

This leads me to another thing, saying that Lobdell is just a yes-man is an extreme oversimplification of his situation. In the end he's just an employee and he has to follow the indication his bosses give him, just like most writers in the medium. The only ones able to have free rein with their work are those really high profile writers like Morrison or Rucka and Lobdell is nowhere close that rank.

----------


## Aahz

> When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out.


The Problem is more with the Batman writers than with Lobdell. In his own series Jason is still occasionally killing bad guys, just not as often as pre flashpoint and he is willing to give villains a second chance when he thinks they are worth it.

The problem is that the Batman writers are mostly ignoring it in their events. Batman Eternal, when the police turned completely against Batman, would have been an ideal opportunity for Jason to question Bruce methods again, it didn't happen. The only time I can remember someone did something in that direction was Pak in the Jasons last appearance in Batman/Superman, with Jason suggesting to nuke Vadal Savage. 

And the other problem is that Jason has actually to be effective to give his position some weight, but sofar he was always the least efficient Batfamily member in the events. Often presented as if he was a complete idiot or turned into a joke. The authors have to take him serious. He can't work as a foil if the writer push him in the role of the second rate Robin with inferior complexes and only use him only to show how much better the other characters are. In B&RE he was even called out by Steph for acting immature.

I posted here some scans of the imo worst scenes from the Batman events.

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## Godlike13

Ya, a character who stands on his own with a red bat symbol on his chest, and always supported with other long standing DC characters put in his book for Jason to stand next to. Starting business called rent-a-bat and pushing ideas like this Dark Trinity. But i guess since Jason is being moved away from Batman's shadow, as you guys so claim, Jason is the analog for WW in this Dark Trinity. Please. Moved him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. Ya, sure  :Wink: .

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Ya, a character who stands on his own with a red bat symbol on his chest, and always supported with other long standing DC characters put in his book for Jason to stand next to. Starting business called rent-a-bat and pushing ideas like this Dark Trinity. But i guess since Jason is being moved away from Batman's shadow, as you guys so claim, Jason is the analog for WW in this Dark Trinity. Please. Moved him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. Ya, sure .


Some clarifications here:

* The Red Bat is a marketing move (and a pretty effective one at that) that was bound to come sooner or later. DC is after all business. While in-story is meant to symbolize Jason coming to terms with his past nut not for that he's letting that past control him.

* And what is the problem with Jason having a supporting cast or friends? Hell, the fact he's turned into more of a team player is a pretty notorious for his character.

* Rent A Bat was a great direction for him and one pretty unique within the DCU. Plus, you it was Roy's idea and again, is simply playing a bit with Batman's popularity in universe.

* The Dark Trinity is on DC entirely and yeah, he's playing the role of a dark counterpart to Batman because that is what *fans demanded* (some of them at least) Remember, the whole point of Rebirth was to brought back the characterization and direction people missed from the N52.

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## godisawesome

I do agree it's an oversimplification to say that Lobdell is editorial's puppet, or that some of the moves they've made with Jason that seem derivative can also be linked to fan demand and market requirements...

...But...

...There are far to many features of even his work that guys like you love that seem dictated entirely by editorials desire. The intitial line-up of RHATO feels just as artificially manufactured as anything else in the New 52, and while Lobdell managed to make it work, that lack of execution on Starfire's...perception of the world around her and her sensuality in the first issue showcases that the combination of himself and his editors were blind to some major portrayal issues. The arrival of the unwanted, derided, and to several readers, sign-that-editorial-wants-this-crappy-character-to-be-the-next-big-thing Joker's Daughter to the series was also clearly an editorial mandate. Its the same thing that lead to Teen Titans featuring Lance, bane of DC fans who showed they had taste by staying away from such drivel in the 90's, or the endless tie-in notes, or having a crossover with Forever Evil that then slipped into the Replacement Superboy arc that was a _cancer_ on that property, or coming back to the second volume to finish off the $#!+ he'd started by brining back Harvest on editorial demand to basically defame and bury Superboy in the middle of someone else's arc. And even on his Superman run, you could tell when he was given jobs like "shill the Wonder Woman romance hard" because it never felt natural, it felt like what a professional writer receiving marching orders would do.

The new Rebirth line-up is clearly manufactured around a concept, and while I think Lobdell will probably suit your expectations and tastes there, my immediate reaction was "Huh, Bizarro's always kind of boring to me, and I'd hoped to see Artemis in something more...ambitious."

Because that's ultimately my opinion of Lobdell in top form: unambitious. I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as _subtly_ exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character. 

 And my opinion of him in poor form is pretty bad: the perfect instrument to show what happens when no one in creative cares about a property except for what shallow understanding of it they can briefly fail to combine with marketing tricks. And for the record, that doesn't put him in horrific company, just the company of other writers who I only want to read when they're on, which is generally a little rare. He's like Judd Winnick; when he's got an awesome story to tell, great!...But keep him the hell away from my characters if he's just doing what editorial wants. And unfortunately, I think that's part of the reason why Lobdell being a willing worker, as you put it, hurts his creative output. It would have been better for the brands of Teen Titans if he'd quit the book when editorial started screwing with him, and sadly, there's a part of me that feels it might be better for Red Hood is he quits now as well, or at least the moment he stops being excited about the character.

And again, to me, he's just not good enough to be writing a major Gotham character as long as he has. Because very few writers are.

----------


## Rise

> Ya, a character who stands on his own with a red bat symbol on his chest, and always supported with other long standing DC characters put in his book for Jason to stand next to. Starting business called rent-a-bat and pushing ideas like this Dark Trinity. But i guess since Jason is being moved away from Batman's shadow, as you guys so claim, Jason is the analog for WW in this Dark Trinity. Please. Moved him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. Ya, sure .


Are you seriously implying that Jason can't stand on his own? Because yeah, sure _he can't_. Which is why his series called *Red Hood* and the Outlaws instead of just _the Outlaws_. 

Btw, what do you say about the fact that nightwing has Robin, Batgirl and BATMAN as his supporting cast? Does this also means that nightwing can't stand on his own? 

*godisawesome*: what's wrong with the fact that Lobdell is still excited about writing Jason? And why should he quit just because you don't like his writing? 

Lobdell is one of the few writers who done justice to this character and actually seem to care about him which it's good enough for some of us here.

----------


## godisawesome

My complaint is that my standard for long term writing, at least on a book that primarily focuses on an ex-Robin, was set by Chuck Dixon and the writers like him. I expect A-Level work with villains, world building to a huge degree, and just _more_ overall than I've seen Scott Lobdell do on a book. Lobdell's done a great job writing the character, but by and large there's been no escalation and evolution on par with what I expect out of my comics, 'cause I'm a really cheap comic book buyer and that part of how I determine to keep reading a book. I expect work on Jason to match the level of the guy who made Bane, King Snake, and Bludhaven while also spending time building subplots about Dick Grayson's landlady and Timothy Drake's classmates, or at least work on par with someone like Fabian Nicieza, the guy who managed to give a Deathstroke rip-off created by Rob Liefeld into the Merc with the Mouth, and who had Tim Drake dealing with running Neon Knights while eating hamburgers with Ives and making an alliance with Lonnie Machlin.

I want Lobdell to move on because, for all the crap that Tynion's run on RHATO got, and some of it was very deserved, at least it was different and trying to push in new directions.

----------


## REAL

And you say that I have no chill, *Rise*... 

And oh my, what the heck this thread trun into? There's a someone who think that the other creators should ignore Lobdell's writing because it's "beneath" them, and other who think Lobdell should just quit because apparently he is important enough to prevent other writers from writing Jason. Like, do the two of you even realize what you actually write? I don't care about Lobdell beside his writing, but I don't think either of you would have liked if someone keep trashing you in the Internet. 

If you two are truly interested in Jason and not satisfied with the way he's written, then just communicate with Lobdell and explain your problems with him instead of complaining about his writing here. 

But if you already made up your mind that you don't like his writing and will not accept it, then simply _get over it_. It's not like Jason is a big favorite to either of you and I don't think that him not being written the way you want him to be is such a big lost to you.

----------


## Rise

lol, it's seems that neither of us have any chill  :Cool: 

Hey Jan, the channel you recommend to me was seriously great. His videos of RH/A were really enjoyable and I like his way of narrating. Is he planning to do RHATO Rebirth? Because I really hope he does!

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## Godlike13

> Some clarifications here:
> 
> * The Red Bat is a marketing move (and a pretty effective one at that) that was bound to come sooner or later. DC is after all business. While in-story is meant to symbolize Jason coming to terms with his past nut not for that he's letting that past control him.
> 
> * And what is the problem with Jason having a supporting cast or friends? Hell, the fact he's turned into more of a team player is a pretty notorious for his character.
> 
> * Rent A Bat was a great direction for him and one pretty unique within the DCU. Plus, you it was Roy's idea and again, is simply playing a bit with Batman's popularity in universe.
> 
> * The Dark Trinity is on DC entirely and yeah, he's playing the role of a dark counterpart to Batman because that is what *fans demanded* (some of them at least) Remember, the whole point of Rebirth was to brought back the characterization and direction people missed from the N52.


-It being a marketing move doesn't change that wearing a Bat symbol is not "standing on his own", or "being his own man", or make him "not in Batman shadow". 
-Not a problem, but its also not Red Hood standing on his own. He's turned into more of a team player. Which is fine, but still the opposite of whats being claimed. 
-Regardless if whether or not it was a great direction for him, playing with Batman's popularity in universe is not moving him away from Batman's shadow or developing him into his own man. 
-Nevertheless him in the role of a dark counterpart to Batman is yet more of Jason leaning on Batman under Lobdell. 




> Are you seriously implying that Jason can't stand on his own? Because yeah, _sure_ he can't. Which is why his series called *Red Hood* and the Outlaws instead of just _the Outlaws_. 
> 
> Btw, what do you say about the fact that nightwing has Robin, Batgirl and BATMAN as his supporting cast? Does this also means that nightwing can't stand on his own?


No, thats not what im implying. Im just saying that under Lobdell Jason is not a character who has stood on his own, or has been moved away from Bruce's shadow. Under Lobdell Jason was turned into more of a team player, who doesn't do much standing on his own, and also leans on Batman in multiple ways.

And im not claiming that Nightwing is standing on his own or is moving away from Batman's shadow, as you say Nightwing is going to be using Robin, Batgirl and Batman. Its not something Nightwing fans can claim right now. Regardless if he can stand on his own or not. 




> And you say that I have no chill, *Rise*... 
> 
> And oh my, what the heck this thread trun into? There's a someone who think that the other creators should ignore Lobdell's writing because it's "beneath" them, and other who think Lobdell should just quit because apparently he is important enough to prevent other writers from writing Jason. Like, do the two of you even realize what you actually write? I don't care about Lobdell beside his writing, but I don't think either of you would have liked if someone keep trashing you in the Internet. 
> 
> If you two are truly interested in Jason and not satisfied with the way he's written, then just communicate with Lobdell and explain your problems with him instead of complaining about his writing here. 
> 
> But if you already made up your mind that you don't like his writing and will not accept it, then simply _get over it_. It's not like Jason is a big favorite to either of you and I don't think that him not being written the way you want him to be is such a big lost to you.


Well i didn't say any of that, nor have i even really trashed Lobdell. I like Red Hood quite a bit actually, i just have no interest of more Red Hood under Lobdell. Which therein lies my problem. And honestly, i don't think im alone in that. But im certainly not gonna pester Lobdell because i don't like his work. Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.

----------


## Rise

RHATO is a _team_  book. If Lobdell wasn't able to make Jason a team player, then it's mean he actually failed as a writer. 

And did you actually read D.T post? You can't blame Lobdell for things that's out of his control. It's was pretty clear that Lobdell wanted Jason away from from the Bat-Family at the beginning of RHATO, but there's really nothing he can do because both DC and some of the fans wants him be part of them. 

Jason under Lobdell can stand on his own when he is given_ the chance_.  




> Well i didn't say any of that, nor have i even really trashed Lobdell. I like Red Hood quite a bit actually, i just have no interest of more Red Hood under Lobdell. Which therein lies my problem. And honestly, i don't think im alone in that. But im certainly not gonna pester Lobdell because i don't like his work. Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.


You actually did by calling his work _mediocrity and mockery_  and not worth to be acknowledged by other writers. 

And REAL didn't say that you have to like Lobdell to like Jason. He just saying that this discussion isn't getting us anywhere which is becoming more of aurgment than actual discussion. It's not up to us here to decided who write Jason, it's DC's decision. So, why you keep complaining about this here? 

We can't you convince that Lobdell's writing isn't a bad and you can't convince us that it's bad. So, what the point of continuing this?

----------


## godisawesome

My apologies for the earlier rant...and my apologies for probably continuing the rant further down this post. Everything I say is subjective when it comes to Lobdell; I can't *prove* he's a bad writer, and the man's a professional writer, something I want to be someday, and I have to testify that he's a competent professional.

I do consider myself a Red Hood fan, and I know that I share some opinions with frequent posters on this threat even if I don't read the current book. And I'll admit, I'm _incredibly_ biased against Lobdell; whenever I talk about the guy's writing, I need to admit that I'm going in looking for flaws.

But I'm that way because I've been burned by Lobdell's writing, for the first few months of the New 52, the only books I was consistently reading were his three jobs on RHATO, Teen Titans, and Superboy. The only one that gave me any initial concern was RHATO, because of the Starfire issue, which seemed to have been an execution problem as opposed to an conceptual one. And the first one I stopped reading regularly was RHATO, because while I could tell it was consistent and had good voices for the characters, I, personally, found it boring. I was sticking with the other two because, while I wasn't seeing his writing as being better there, I held out hope because my favorite characters are Kon-El, Tim Drake, Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark.

And then Lobdell, or at least the formula of Lobdell and his higher editorial board, burned all of them in horrible, horrible writing, with bad concepts and bad execution, to such an extent that only one of those four seems to have a place in Rebirth, and it's in rehab in 'Tec.

And when I stopped back in RHATO now and again because of crossovers or because the idea sounded good, it still bored me. And when I read Tynion's run, and found that in spite of his clear inexperience I enjoyed it more than Lobdell's run, I was disappointed when Lobdell returned and dropped the book again. And so my opinion of Lobdell's skill came to be that it must at the very least not be towards my demographic. And then I look and I see that while the book's sales haven't tanked, their still below rivals they should be beating. So I conclude that Lobdell's writing has antagonized more readers like me. And then I wanted to grab the book for Reborth...and I saw that Lobdell was still writing it.

So, I've come to the conclusion that I will not read a character I want to read as long as Lobdell's writing him, and I feel that Lobdell still writing the book is limiting its possible readership.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I do agree it's an oversimplification to say that Lobdell is editorial's puppet, or that some of the moves they've made with Jason that seem derivative can also be linked to fan demand and market requirements...
> 
> ...But...
> 
> ...There are far to many features of even his work that guys like you love that seem dictated entirely by editorials desire. The intitial line-up of RHATO feels just as artificially manufactured as anything else in the New 52, and while Lobdell managed to make it work, that lack of execution on Starfire's...perception of the world around her and her sensuality in the first issue showcases that the combination of himself and his editors were blind to some major portrayal issues. The arrival of the unwanted, derided, and to several readers, sign-that-editorial-wants-this-crappy-character-to-be-the-next-big-thing Joker's Daughter to the series was also clearly an editorial mandate. Its the same thing that lead to Teen Titans featuring Lance, bane of DC fans who showed they had taste by staying away from such drivel in the 90's, or the endless tie-in notes, or having a crossover with Forever Evil that then slipped into the Replacement Superboy arc that was a _cancer_ on that property, or coming back to the second volume to finish off the $#!+ he'd started by brining back Harvest on editorial demand to basically defame and bury Superboy in the middle of someone else's arc. And even on his Superman run, you could tell when he was given jobs like "shill the Wonder Woman romance hard" because it never felt natural, it felt like what a professional writer receiving marching orders would do.


You continue referencing Lobdell's TT but the situation with that book is nowhere close to RHATO or RH/A. Lobdell had relative freedom on those books whereas time passed TT was being ghost written by editorial. Lobdell actually wanted to bail from the book before the first year passed but doing so would mean losing RHATO and that was the book he loved to write.

With Superman he was also given some degree of freedom but there he was saddled with the duty of making crossovers for the whole line.




> The new Rebirth line-up is clearly manufactured around a concept, and while I think Lobdell will probably suit your expectations and tastes there, my immediate reaction was "Huh, Bizarro's always kind of boring to me, and I'd hoped to see Artemis in something more...ambitious."
> 
> Because that's ultimately my opinion of Lobdell in top form: unambitious. I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as _subtly_ exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character.


Er no. I simply don't post that kind of analysis in here. If you want to see a more in depth analysis  of Lobdell's work with Jason, I suggest you to look at the reviews I do for this page I began with issue 32 and I haven't stopped since.




> And my opinion of him in poor form is pretty bad: the perfect instrument to show what happens when no one in creative cares about a property except for what shallow understanding of it they can briefly fail to combine with marketing tricks. And for the record, that doesn't put him in horrific company, just the company of other writers who I only want to read when they're on, which is generally a little rare. He's like Judd Winnick; when he's got an awesome story to tell, great!...But keep him the hell away from *my* characters if he's just doing what editorial wants. And unfortunately, I think that's part of the reason why Lobdell being a willing worker, as you put it, hurts his creative output. It would have been better for the brands of Teen Titans if he'd quit the book when editorial started screwing with him, and sadly, there's a part of me that feels it might be better for Red Hood is he quits now as well, or at least the moment he stops being excited about the character.
> 
> And again, to me, he's just not good enough to be writing a major Gotham character as long as he has. Because very few writers are.


Dude what




> My complaint is that my standard for long term writing, at least on a book that primarily focuses on an ex-Robin, was set by Chuck Dixon and the writers like him. I expect A-Level work with villains, world building to a huge degree, and just _more_ overall than I've seen Scott Lobdell do on a book. Lobdell's done a great job writing the character, but by and large there's been no escalation and evolution on par with what I expect out of my comics, 'cause I'm a really cheap comic book buyer and that part of how I determine to keep reading a book. I expect work on Jason to match the level of the guy who made Bane, King Snake, and Bludhaven while also spending time building subplots about Dick Grayson's landlady and Timothy Drake's classmates, or at least work on par with someone like Fabian Nicieza, the guy who managed to give a Deathstroke rip-off created by Rob Liefeld into the Merc with the Mouth, and who had Tim Drake dealing with running Neon Knights while eating hamburgers with Ives and making an alliance with Lonnie Machlin.
> 
> I want Lobdell to move on because, for all the crap that Tynion's run on RHATO got, and some of it was very deserved, at least it was different and trying to push in new directions.


I don't follow you. You want Lobdell to introduce lasting, powerful changes on Jason's status quo while also developing his character and yet you continue complaining aboiut him _doing exactly that_

Jason went from a loner that didn't trust anyone and kept everything bottled up inside him to someone that enjoys being in a team, he gave Jason an unique backstory with it own ensemble cast to drive Jason's character further, developed one of the best friendships DC had during the N52 with Roy, tried to expand his horizons by _dating_, embarked on a crusade to redeem his foes rather than killing them on sight, made amends with Bruce and had a strong brotherly bond with Tim where there was none previously.

From where I am standing, he accomplished exactly what you expected him to do. I'll grant you that his stories not always finished the way he would've liked but that is on editorial not on him. And he wasn't the only writer that suffered through that.




> -It being a marketing move doesn't change that wearing a Bat symbol is not "standing on his own", or "being his own man", or make him "not in Batman shadow". 
> -Not a problem, but its also not Red Hood standing on his own. He's turned into more of a team player. Which is fine, but still the opposite of whats being claimed. 
> -Regardless if whether or not it was a great direction for him, playing with Batman's popularity in universe is not moving him away from Batman's shadow or developing him into his own man. 
> -Nevertheless him in the role of a dark counterpart to Batman is yet more of Jason leaning on Batman under Lobdell.


I don't get you either. All the stuff you're listing are things that only hold water from a marketing perspective. Yeah, DC is taking advantage of Batman's popularity to promote Jason but that is never a factor within the story itself. When Jason received his costume with the Red Bat, it was explicitly told he shoudln't be defined by what he wears or the people on his past. The only time the Red Bat was given relevance was with Rent A Bat, and that was Lobdell using some metacommentary to build his plot.

If I'm understanding right your point, you're implying that Jason can't be his own man because he's not working alone. If that is your intention, I'm sorry but that is a pretty dumb posture. The only orders he's following are his, the choices he makes are his alone. How is that not being his own man? Hell, Dick during his tenure as Agent 37 was more under Bruce's shadow than ever. 

So? Whether Lobdell acknowledged the info or not wouldn't made it stop existing. But by using it, he was able to develop further the nature of Jason's relationship with Roy and offering us an insight on Roy's mind.

Have you read the book or do you know Lobdell's pitch? Because so the information released so far hasn't offered clear insight on Jason's characterization, goals or motivation within the book.





> No, thats not what im implying. Im just saying that under Lobdell Jason is not a character who has stood on his own, or has has been moved away from Bruce's shadow. Lobdell has leaned heavily on Batman, and has turned Jason into more of a team player.


How so? Neither Bruce nor Gotham were a real element on RHATO's first seven issues, the only direct connection to it came when the book was pulled into the NoO crossover. Lobdell does use a lot Jason's connection with the Joker but well, they are intrinsically connected and you can't really write an ongoing story with Jason without referencing that connection some way or another. Lobdell hasn't pitted Jason against many Batman rogues either, so I don't follow your logic here.




> Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.


Indeed but it would certainly help if you were so kind to properly elaborate your opinions like godisawesome is doing so we could have a productive discussion.

----------


## Lhynn

Lodbells writing is about dumb broad strokes that never really satisfy the reader, but that can be summed up as something decent as a concept. He writes horribly, but if you just take a step back it doesnt look that bad.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't get you either. All the stuff you're listing are things that only hold water from a marketing perspective. Yeah, DC is taking advantage of Batman's popularity to promote Jason but that is never a factor within the story itself. When Jason received his costume with the Red Bat, it was explicitly told he shoudln't be defined by what he wears or the people on his past. The only time the Red Bat was given relevance was with Rent A Bat, and that was Lobdell using some metacommentary to build his plot.
> 
> If I'm understanding right your point, you're implying that Jason can't be his own man because he's not working alone. If that is your intention, I'm sorry but that is a pretty dumb posture. The only orders he's following are his, the choices he makes are his alone. How is that not being his own man? Hell, Dick during his tenure as Agent 37 was more under Bruce's shadow than ever. 
> 
> So? Whether Lobdell acknowledged the info or not wouldn't made it stop existing. But by using it, he was able to develop further the nature of Jason's relationship with Roy and offering us an insight on Roy's mind. 
> 
> Have you read the book or do you know Lobdell's pitch? Because so the information released so far hasn't offered clear insight on Jason's characterization, goals or motivation within the book.


-Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell. 
-Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E. 
-And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it. 
-They say “Dark Trinity” quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.  




> How so? Neither Bruce nor Gotham were a real element on RHATO's first seven issues, the only direct connection to it came when the book was pulled into the NoO crossover. Lobdell does use a lot Jason's connection with the Joker but well, they are intrinsically connected and you can't really write an ongoing story with Jason without referencing that connection some way or another. Lobdell hasn't pitted Jason against many Batman rogues either, so I don't follow your logic here.


Again, being partnered with Roy and Starfire, and now partnered with Bizzaro and Artemis, Bat symbol on chest, Rent a "Bat", "Dark Trinity", ect. For a character that was claimed to stand on his own, he's not not been partnered up with other establish DC characters, and for a character that has moved away from Batman shadow he more connected to Batman, "plays" with Batman's popularity, and works with him more than he has since he was Robin. 




> Indeed but it would certainly help if you were so kind to properly elaborate your opinions like godisawesome is doing so we could have a productive discussion.


I have, multiple times, and we have had that conversation multiple times.

----------


## godisawesome

Dark_Tzitzimine, this next part mostly just seeks to clarify the part of my post you quoted and said "Dude What" to:

You need to understand that I see Lobdell's best, most consistent work on RHATO and RH/A as being solid 3 star work on what should be a consistent 4 star book, since it's a Bat-title in all but editorial classification. I think it shows the difference in performance expectations and atmosphere between the Bat-editorial board and the Super-editorial board; at the Batboard, even at its most interfering, there was pressure to shake up and change creative on a book if it was viewed as underperforming its expectations, while the Superman board seemed to see more desperation for even middling success, and there seemed to be a prioritizing of being willing to follow editorial dictates and marketing pitches over actual skill. And plenty of writers cut their teeth well enough on Batman books to move to their own projects because that's more financially beneficial.

And since I don't perceive Lobdell as being a better writer than Kyle Higgins, Gail Simone, Genevieve Valentine, or John Layman, I think him coming back to and staying on a book Longer than any of them speaks to stagnation in quality rather than high standards. I think he only keeps the writing job because it's a decent performing book for a chaotic editorial board, and he would have been either booted or forced to get more ambitious under the Batman board. So I think the combination of his loyalty to his superiors and the resulting quality of his writing is limiting Jason Todd as a character.

And the Judd Winick comparison really wasn't that clear, and I'll admit, the association I have between the two guys isn't that flattering. I think they both run hot and cold and have an unfortunate tendency to play editorial's hatchet men on my favorite characters. I think that Lobdell will write more "good" stories than Winick, while Winick has "Under The Red Hood" which is a "great" single story that far surpasses any of Lobdell's work, and I think both men have an unfortunate tendency towards subpar writing if they aren't fully engaged. Both misread their audience and damaged their runs on RHATO and Catwoman in the early days by going for a "sex sells" thing in their #1s, though Lobdell handled that problem far more gracefully than Winick. Winick has the stupidity of Graduation Day, and Lobdell has the stain of Teen Titans, both of which featured horrific writing that at time seemed perfunctory in its plodding terribleness.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> -Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell. 
> -Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E. 
> -And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it. 
> -They say Dark Trinity quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.
> 
> Again, being partnered with Roy and Starfire, and now partnered with Bizzaro and Artemis, Bat symbol on chest, Rent a "Bat", "Dark Trinity", ect. For a character that was claimed to stand on his own, he's not not been partnered up with other establish DC characters, and for a character that has moved away from Batman shadow he more connected to Batman, "plays" with Batman's popularity, and works with him more than he has since he was Robin. 
> 
> I have, multiple times, and we have had that conversation multiple times.


You continue citing things that happen at editorial level but not specific passages of Lobdell's run. Let's take the bit about Jason following orders for example. Under Lobdell he has met Bruce two times: RHATO's issue 18 and RH/A issue 6. In neither of those meeting he received and order from Bruce. Jason got involved on the Night of Owls because Tim _asked_ him for help and he wasn't even properly briefed on the nature of the situation. Dick has only showed once, in RHATO's issue 17 where at best he warned Jason about taking good care of Kori. Where has been Jason taking orders? You mean Eternal/B&R E? That wasn't Lobdell. Robin War? King. Robin Reborn? Tomasi. Doomed, Truth? Pak. All of them things that were beyond Lobdell's control and that for the most part were actually at odds with his characterization of Jason.

Continuing with Lobdell's work. How does Jason plays with Batman's popularity? He was pretty upset at Roy using him to sell the Rent A Bat idea, the only member of the bat family he has asked for help is Tim.

And Nightwing's first arc is called "Better than Batman", your point being?





> Dark_Tzitzimine, this next part mostly just seeks to clarify the part of my post you quoted and said "Dude What" to:
> 
> You need to understand that I see Lobdell's best, most consistent work on RHATO and RH/A as being solid 3 star work on what should be a consistent 4 star book, since it's a Bat-title in all but editorial classification. I think it shows the difference in performance expectations and atmosphere between the Bat-editorial board and the Super-editorial board; at the Batboard, even at its most interfering, there was pressure to shake up and change creative on a book if it was viewed as underperforming its expectations, while the Superman board seemed to see more desperation for even middling success, and there seemed to be a prioritizing of being willing to follow editorial dictates and marketing pitches over actual skill. And plenty of writers cut their teeth well enough on Batman books to move to their own projects because that's more financially beneficial.
> 
> And since I don't perceive Lobdell as being a better writer than Kyle Higgins, Gail Simone, Genevieve Valentine, or John Layman, I think him coming back to and staying on a book Longer than any of them speaks to stagnation in quality rather than high standards. I think he only keeps the writing job because it's a decent performing book for a chaotic editorial board, and he would have been either booted or forced to get more ambitious under the Batman board. So I think the combination of his loyalty to his superiors and the resulting quality of his writing is limiting Jason Todd as a character.


We're getting into entirely subjective matters here. You see the Batman offices as the example to follow of creativity whereas I've found every crossover to come from there to be mediocre at best and the only book I think is good in the last year was Robin: SOB. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.




> And the Judd Winick comparison really wasn't that clear, and I'll admit, the association I have between the two guys isn't that flattering. I think they both run hot and cold and have an unfortunate tendency to play editorial's hatchet men on my favorite characters. I think that Lobdell will write more "good" stories than Winick, while Winick has "Under The Red Hood" which is a "great" single story that far surpasses any of Lobdell's work, and I think both men have an unfortunate tendency towards subpar writing if they aren't fully engaged. Both misread their audience and damaged their runs on RHATO and Catwoman in the early days by going for a "sex sells" thing in their #1s, though Lobdell handled that problem far more gracefully than Winick. Winick has the stupidity of Graduation Day, and Lobdell has the stain of Teen Titans, both of which featured horrific writing that at time seemed perfunctory in its plodding terribleness.


Having read UTRH many, many times I can confidently say the animated version is the only good version. And that is because Winnick fixed the biggest flaws the original story had and was allowed more creative freedom. Being the story that brought Jason back makes it very important but I don't believe is THE Jason story anymore.

Oh and Lobdell never went for a "sex sells" approach with Starfire. He deconstructed her character by putting her in the lowest point she had ever been and the rebuild her from the ground up.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.


What is his basic character? How the hell does being mellow translate to not disagree with Batman anymore? You complained about a boring Jason yet you seem to have an idea that Jason should only be a certain thing with no room to change. 




> -Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell. 
> -Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E. 
> -And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it. 
> -They say Dark Trinity quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.


Jason was also pull backed by these crossovers so why does it sound like you defended Dick but attacked Jason for the same thing? I don't think many of us here are praising his appearances in BRE and RW. What happened in RHATO and R/A was Jason having character development outside of Batman's influence, whether he wears the bat or not (like Dark said, it's a marketing choice) Batman plays a minimum role in this. Also following orders doesn't necessarily mean he's not his own person? Him letting Roy run things was a conscious decision he made, as he values their friendship as well as Roy's need. Jason under Lobdell doesn't think highly of leadership, which has been stated a few times. He doesn't tell Roy what to do, but he does decide to do things his way when it really counts (taking in JD was the start of it).

----------


## Godlike13

> You continue citing things that happen at editorial level but not specific passages of Lobdell's run. Let's take the bit about Jason following orders for example. Under Lobdell he has met Bruce two times: RHATO's issue 18 and RH/A issue 6. In neither of those meeting he received and order from Bruce. Jason got involved on the Night of Owls because Tim _asked_ him for help and he wasn't even properly briefed on the nature of the situation. Dick has only showed once, in RHATO's issue 17 where at best he warned Jason about taking good care of Kori. Where has been Jason taking orders? You mean Eternal/B&R E? That wasn't Lobdell. Robin War? King. Robin Reborn? Tomasi. Doomed, Truth? Pak. All of them things that were beyond Lobdell's control and that for the most part were actually at odds with his characterization of Jason.
> 
> Continuing with Lobdell's work. How does Jason plays with Batman's popularity? He was pretty upset at Roy using him to sell the Rent A Bat idea, the only member of the bat family he has asked for help is Tim.
> 
> And Nightwing's first arc is called "Better than Batman", your point being?


Rent a Bat and this upcoming Dark Trinity direction are things that happened and are happening at a creative level. Lobdell will "play", as you put it, with Batman's popularity when its convenient, and made for a Jason that can be used by others and easily take part in crossovers with Batman. It was claimed that Lobdell wants for Jason that stands on his own, but he's been nothing but partnered up, and you claim the Lobdell has move Jason away from Batman's shadow, yet he'll play with Batman's popularity when it convenient by introducing ideas like "Rent a Bat" and "Dark Trinity", and done nothing to stop Jason from being involved in every Bat event and then some. Nothing Lobdell has done has stopped it. He laid the ground work for it. With his team player, mellow Jason. Dick during his tenure as Agent 37, where you claim he was more under Bruce's shadow than ever, stopped him from being in the first Eternal and kept him away from being pulled into Bat events for a time. Yet nothing Lobdell has done has done that. And he works out of a different office. 

And yes Nightwing's first arc is called "Better than Batman", what is your point being? Im not claiming they moved Dick out of Batman shadow or that he's standing on his own. I can't. Because there is too much evidence to the contrary. But thats ok, Dick did the on his own thing. He's well over that. And its not happening. Which is fine, its ok to embrace Batman. I never said that it wasn't. Though to be fair its less of an issue for Dick, because he usually has a part to play. Where Jason is just there. Which does him no favors. Im just saying, you can't really sell that Jason is standing on his own, and moving away from Batman. Because there's too much that says otherwise.

----------


## G-Potion

> The new Rebirth line-up is clearly manufactured around a concept, and while I think Lobdell will probably suit your expectations and tastes there, my immediate reaction was "Huh, Bizarro's always kind of boring to me, and I'd hoped to see Artemis in something more...ambitious."
> 
> Because that's ultimately my opinion of Lobdell in top form: unambitious. I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as _subtly_ exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character. 
> 
> And my opinion of him in poor form is pretty bad: the perfect instrument to show what happens when no one in creative cares about a property except for what shallow understanding of it they can briefly fail to combine with marketing tricks. And for the record, that doesn't put him in horrific company, just the company of other writers who I only want to read when they're on, which is generally a little rare. He's like Judd Winnick; when he's got an awesome story to tell, great!...But keep him the hell away from my characters if he's just doing what editorial wants. And unfortunately, I think that's part of the reason why Lobdell being a willing worker, as you put it, hurts his creative output. It would have been better for the brands of Teen Titans if he'd quit the book when editorial started screwing with him, and sadly, there's a part of me that feels it might be better for Red Hood is he quits now as well, or at least the moment he stops being excited about the character.
> 
> And again, to me, he's just not good enough to be writing a major Gotham character as long as he has. Because very few writers are.


We don't praise excellent villains because the chance to build them was cut short by editorial mandate in both RHATO and R/A. Lobdell isn't the only one affected by it, and shouldn't take the blame for what was out of his control. That said, Joker Daughter in the end managed to be one, and some of us said so. I think Dark also said the same thing both here and in his review. Now character work on the other hand, it was what the two books were about. Lobdell's character work comes partly from his character interaction and I think it's clear many of us are open about liking them. If for some reasons it doesn't seem like we are talking about it, consider this: 




> My apologies for the earlier rant...and my apologies for probably continuing the rant further down this post. Everything I say is subjective when it comes to Lobdell; I can't *prove* he's a bad writer, and the man's a professional writer, something I want to be someday, and I have to testify that he's a competent professional.
> 
> I do consider myself a Red Hood fan, and I know that I share some opinions with frequent posters on this threat even if I don't read the current book. And I'll admit, I'm _incredibly_ biased against Lobdell; whenever I talk about the guy's writing, I need to admit that I'm going in looking for flaws.


There is a lot of negativity in this board when it comes to Jason. The arguments are sometimes not worth it because you yourself admit subjectivity when it comes to Lobdell. It's tiring to have an argument when most Jason/Lobdell detractors don't read the book in the first place. As much as we love Jason, there's only so much negativity we can take. As Dark has pointed out his detailed reviews elsewhere, some of us also spend our time discussing the book elsewhere, with people who, you know, actually read it.

----------


## Godlike13

> What is his basic character? How the hell does being mellow translate to not disagree with Batman anymore? You complained about a boring Jason yet you seem to have an idea that Jason should only be a certain thing with no room to change.


Im all for change. But when change makes him "mellow", where he stands out less and he becomes complacent and redundant, its time for him to change again. Not saying he has to go back to what he was before, but they need to do something to make things interesting with him again where he gets people talking and what have you. 




> Jason was also pull backed by these crossovers so why does it sound like you defended Dick but attacked Jason for the same thing? I don't think many of us here are praising his appearances in BRE and RW. What happened in RHATO and R/A was Jason having character development outside of Batman's influence, whether he wears the bat or not (like Dark said, it's a marketing choice) Batman plays a minimum role in this. Also following orders doesn't necessarily mean he's not his own person? Him letting Roy run things was a conscious decision he made, as he values their friendship as well as Roy's need. Jason under Lobdell doesn't think highly of leadership, which has been stated a few times. He doesn't tell Roy what to do, but he does decide to do things his way when it really counts (taking in JD was the start of it).


Im not attacking Jason for it, or defending Nightwing for it. It is what it is. I can't claim that Dick's been moved away from Batman's shadow, but i never did. Im well over the "be his own man" and "out of the shadow of the Bat" with Nightwing. Its not happening. Im just disagreeing with said claims that Jason is standing on his own and has moved away from the shadow of the bat when there are all these things that says otherwise. And i never said he's not his own person. But for all these claims that hes standing on his own, he's had nothing but partners to stand with, and for these claims that Lobdell wants to move him out of the shadow of the bat. The bat gets used when its convenient, and nothing has been done to stop Jason from showing up whenever Batman calls for him to just stand in the background.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Rent a Bat and this upcoming Dark Trinity direction are things that happened and are happening at a creative level. Lobdell will "play", as you put it, with Batman's popularity when its convenient, and made for a Jason that can be used by others and easily take part in crossovers with Batman. It was claimed that Lobdell wants for Jason that stands on his own, but he's been nothing but partnered up, and you claim the Lobdell has move Jason away from Batman's shadow, yet he'll play with Batman's popularity when it convenient by introducing ideas like "Rent a Bat" and "Dark Trinity", and done nothing to stop Jason from being involved in every Bat event and then some. Nothing Lobdell has done has stopped it. He laid the ground work for it. With his team player, mellow Jason. Dick during his tenure as Agent 37, where you claim he was more under Bruce's shadow than ever, stopped him from being in the first Eternal and kept him away from being pulled into Bat events for a time. Yet nothing Lobdell has done has done that. And he works out of a different office.


Seriously dude, you continue to blame Lobdell from stuff done to Jason by the editorial and refuse to look at the actual work he has done with Jason _within the book he leads_

And yes, he did laid the groundwork for Jason to be an active member of the Bat-family that is the kind of stuff it happens when you're working within a shared fictional universe. Besides, Lobdell has kept Jason on the sidelines of editorial mandated crossovers when he can like he did with Robin War where Jason only showed up for five pages and the rest of the issue was focused on Roy and Duela.





> And yes Nightwing's first arc is called "Better than Batman", what is your point being? Im not claiming they moved Dick out of Batman shadow or that he's standing on his own. I can't. Because there is too much evidence to the contrary. But thats ok, Dick did the on his own thing. He's well over that. And its not happening. Which is fine, its ok to embrace Batman. I never said that it wasn't. Though to be fair its less of an issue for Dick, because he usually has a part to play. Where Jason is just there. Which does him no favors. Im just saying, you can't really sell that Jason is standing on his own, and moving away from Batman. Because there's too much that says otherwise.


My point is that is just a title and doesn't account for all the possible nuances present on the work, and by using that as basis for your argument you're passing judgement on a book isn't out yet.

----------


## REAL

Finally, this whole argument is over. 




> lol, it's seems that neither of us have any chill 
> 
> Hey Jan, the channel you recommend to me was seriously great. His videos of RH/A were really enjoyable and I like his way of narrating. Is he planning to do RHATO Rebirth? Because I really hope he does!


Yeah, his channel is great and really helpful in explaining some complicated things in comics. 

Dunno tbh. He said that rh/a was one of his favorite DCyou series and was in hurry to finish it before RHATO REBIRTH come out, but he didn't confirm or deny if he's going to do it.

----------


## Rise

Indeed, we were having a peaceful discussion until suddenly things get out of hand. 

Hopefully, he will do it!

----------


## REAL

Why the whole thing even started? I remember that we were just discussing a solution for how the writers could handle Jason in crossovers, but it suddenly become a discussion on Lobdell's writing. 

Well, I guess I am just going to blame you for this and move on.

----------


## Rise

You ALWAYS blame me 😬, but it's your fault this time. After all, it was YOUR post that trigged that guy.

----------


## REAL

Which post was that?

----------


## Rise

The one where you suggested that the other writers should acknowledge what Lobdell did with Jason instead of making him a complete different person in the crossovers compared to his book. ☺

----------


## REAL

Oh well, it's doesn't matter anymore. 

After all, we are finally getting Rhato rebirth in two weeks.

----------


## Rise

Yup  :Big Grin: . I can't wait to see our dark Trinity!

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.


Don`t agree on it. 

At the basic level, the type of emotional and social struggle alone make him stand out in a way that it _can`t_ make for Grayson or the others (even Bruce), because they never grew up in the same existential enviorment. In a character sense he may not afford it but it`s the struggle between wishing it and dealing with that realization that makes him compeeling, among other things. It _has_ been done even in the new52, so the boring aspect as with any character only comes in play when the execution isn`t good. If he read boring in RW is because the writers didn`t push for actual character work outside of them being former mantle bearers. Jason has been in too many stories where writers managed this to varying degrees for me to agree he`s boring unless he`s Punisher. The issue is not him havinga a cast or friends/partners. The issue is not him being a lone wolf or not. You can mention failed attemps at execution like Robin War where he does sit in the sideline and then I can mention how Tomasi wrote him in B&R#20, Pak in S/B Annual or even Lodbell in the character interactions like Tim and Isabel. The reason, as you mention, his status in bat crossovers isn`t as appealing is because the editorial at large is more concerned with selling the comercial prospect of having all the former kids around over anything else. But it`s not Jason who only suffers in this. Getting back to R:W: Tim does as well. Dick? He was written as the proverbial cardboard prodigial son and little else. 

In the end what I don`t agree the most with, is the notion that Jason can only be interesting if he`s just the antagonist. You can have a Jason who still opposes Bruce somehow (which he always will) but is more mature, which is where the mellow side plays out. The only thing I truly hated about Tynion`s run was taking Isabel off the book, because you can have antagonism in all sort of levels instead of having it always directed at Bruce and whoever else is cleaning the Batmobile. I`d be ok with a Vertigo-ish Jason as I am with a RATHO Jason. Balance is what make a character versitle and out of being one note.  

I`d prefer him without the bat logo on the chest but that`s another example of (a) editorial marketability and not so much a character side (other than pulling a honoring a former mantle mantra I guess). The only thing I can agree in the whole recent conversation is that the bat logo _binds_ him with the family, exactly because of (a). It`s the calling card. He may not be part of the bat office but that brands him as one of the toys. I firmly stand by that he doesn`t need it as evident by the number of appearances he`s been having in different titles and characters from the start of the reboot. Lo and behold, he doesn`t become a drastically-nother character by it!

I`d rather he do without, but since I give less stock to main crossovers than actual titles, I`m likely less bothered by it than others. Having studied Marketing before I also understand how inevitable it is for everyone else. One still hopes. 


Still glad he`s not showing up in Monsters, at least.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, as fun as "Rent a Bat" could be, the story actually led to Jason, inwards, rejecting the concept that was set up by Roy. This is kind of Meta in Loedbell (probably the most meta he`s been on the book..) and I think it can speak some volume in what we are talking about, regarding the bindness of Jason towards the Bat symbol.

----------


## Aahz

> But when change makes him "mellow", where he stands out less and he becomes complacent and redundant, its time for him to change again.


And is he really "mellow" in his own book? He is not as brutal as he was in UTRH or BFC but even if you just look at Red Hood/Arsenal he killed quite a lot of people. He killed Palette,  tired to kill Underbelly directly in their first meeting, shot Jokers Daugther (not sure if he wanted to kill her or not) and killed 4 members of the Iron Rule in the final issue.  It is also quite possible that he killed members of Cobra in the sneak peak, some Terrorists when they were in Paris and and Hive Members in when they were in Washington DC.




> The bat gets used when its convenient, and nothing has been done to stop Jason from showing up whenever Batman calls for him to just stand in the background.


Him standing in the background in events is more a problem with the writers of the events, who want to highlight other (often their own) characters, than with what is happening Jasons own title.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as _subtly_ exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character.


In all honesty I haven't been praising excellent villains in very many DC book with the N52 myself so I don't really find that to have been a problem confined only to RHatO and RH/A. A lot of the Bat titles suffered badly handled or just plain awful villains IMHO. _BRE_ had Mother. _Batman_ had Lincoln March. _TT_ had Harvest. _B&R_ had Nobody. _Nightwing_ had Saiko and so on. By and large and even among the higher tier books I've found most of the villains themselves as well as their portrayals to be very mediocre and at times even forgettable. Even long standing ones, like the Joker and Ra's seem to have gotten the mediocre treatment by writers that usually have a good grasp of them. I mainly blame most of that not on the writers themselves, including Lobdell, but also on people in editorial who were perhaps micromanaging things a bit too much in their efforts to have all the books keep to the same tonal quality. 




> Im all for change. But when change makes him "mellow", where he stands out less and he becomes complacent and redundant, its time for him to change again. Not saying he has to go back to what he was before, but they need to do something to make things interesting with him again where he gets people talking and what have you.


Personally, I like the more mellowed out Jason over the Pit crazed lunatic with Daddy issue we had prior to the reboot. I found the crazed killer version of Jason to have overstayed his welcome mainly because writers were doing absolutely nothing with that concept. There was very little in the way of character development or progression and certainly no plans on the horizon to do anything substantial with the character either during that time. The only plan of some substance, replacing Dick with Jason as a version of Nightwing that was willing to kill, never amounted to anything and left writers with a somewhat unclear direction for the character, which I'm sure didn't help matters any. 




> Im not attacking Jason for it, or defending Nightwing for it. It is what it is. I can't claim that Dick's been moved away from Batman's shadow, but i never did. Im well over the "be his own man" and "out of the shadow of the Bat" with Nightwing. Its not happening. Im just disagreeing with said claims that Jason is standing on his own and has moved away from the shadow of the bat when there are all these things that says otherwise. And i never said he's not his own person. But for all these claims that hes standing on his own, he's had nothing but partners to stand with, and for these claims that Lobdell wants to move him out of the shadow of the bat. The bat gets used when its convenient, and nothing has been done to stop Jason from showing up whenever Batman calls for him to just stand in the background.


He was doing pretty much the same thing prior to the reboot though. Granted he wasn't showing up because Batman called but he was still pretty much just a background character there as well or one that was trotted out merely to harp on his supposed failings as Robin. About the only difference was that back then he was a ranting lunatic most of the time who still hadn't dealt with his issues with Batman or the fact that he had come back to life. Lobdell at least had him deal with his family issues, which no one else seemed to want to deal with, his issues about his own self worth, which again no one would deal with, and now it seems he's going to tackle Jason questioning his own mortality and perhaps dealing with the ramifications of his coming back to life and being thrown in the Laz Pit. All these things are good, solid moves toward character progression and development which is a lot more then he'd been getting. 




> And is he really "mellow" in his own book? He is not as brutal as he was in UTRH or BFC but even if you just look at Red Hood/Arsenal he killed quite a lot of people. He killed Palette,  tired to kill Underbelly directly in their first meeting, shot Jokers Daugther (not sure if he wanted to kill her or not) and killed 4 members of the Iron Rule in the final issue.  It is also quite possible that he killed members of Cobra in the sneak peak, some Terrorists when they were in Paris and and Hive Members in when they were in Washington DC.


His temper has mellowed out somewhat and he doesn't often just fly off the handle anymore but I agree that he's still pretty brutal when he wants to be or thinks someone deserves it. The only thing he does now that he wasn't doing before is that he dials that back when he's working with the Bats for obvious reasons but I don't have a problem with that. 




> Him standing in the background in events is more a problem with the writers of the events, who want to highlight other (often their own) characters, than with what is happening Jasons own title.


Events always seem to have that problem so it's not even just Jason who suffers that type of treatment. That kind of thing also happens at times in team books.

----------


## G-Potion

> Im all for change. But when change makes him "mellow", where he stands out less and he becomes complacent and redundant, its time for him to change again. Not saying he has to go back to what he was before, but they need to do something to make things interesting with him again where he gets people talking and what have you.


Are you criticizing "mellow" Jason as written by Lobdell for something that happened in books that were written by other creators, who, in your own words, rightly ignored Lobdell's characterization of Jason because it's "mediocrity and mockery"? Jason in bat-events is another kind altogether, nothing alike Jason in RHATO. Although, to be fair, none of the robins has any depth in those event books. Regardless, I'm pretty sure people are still talking about him. Like right here. Right now. Look at the pages this thread has.





> Im not attacking Jason for it, or defending Nightwing for it. It is what it is. I can't claim that Dick's been moved away from Batman's shadow, but i never did. Im well over the "be his own man" and "out of the shadow of the Bat" with Nightwing. Its not happening. Im just disagreeing with said claims that Jason is standing on his own and has moved away from the shadow of the bat when there are all these things that says otherwise. And i never said he's not his own person. But for all these claims that hes standing on his own, he's had nothing but partners to stand with, and for these claims that Lobdell wants to move him out of the shadow of the bat. The bat gets used when its convenient, and nothing has been done to stop Jason from showing up whenever Batman calls for him to just stand in the background.


I've thought about this and what I get is your definition of "be his own man" and "out of the shadow of the bat" is just different from how Agent Z and Dark_Tzitzimine meant it. For me, these words mean Jason has matured enough to no longer be driven by his anger towards Batman. His quest is his alone, but he's also chilled enough to work with the family civilly. If he also went a step further to reconcile with Batman, going so far as being grateful to what Bruce has done for him (as shown in R/A) and willing to lend his help now and then, it only shows how far Jason has progressed and it makes him a better person. That said, going with this definition, I'd also think of Grayson as his own man.

----------


## G-Potion

> lol, it's seems that neither of us have any chill 
> 
> Hey Jan, the channel you recommend to me was seriously great. His videos of RH/A were really enjoyable and I like his way of narrating. Is he planning to do RHATO Rebirth? Because I really hope he does!


What is this channel that you spoke of?  :EEK!:

----------


## Aahz

> Events always seem to have that problem so it's not even just Jason who suffers that type of treatment. That kind of thing also happens at times in team books.


Maybe I'm biased, but in Jasosn case it is imo worse than usual. It is not only that he doesn't get much spotlight, the portrait is imo really damaging. The way they are writing him he really comes of as the most immature and least competent member of the Batfamily. 
Just lool at the scans that I posted here, here and here.

Jason is already a character that was damaged by inconsistent writing before flashpoint, and this kind of writing were he is mostly used to make others look good doesn't help since it basically fortifies the view that was good enough to be Robin. And if they really want him to be successful they need to do the opposite, find they need to show where his strength are in comparison to the other Robins and enforce that he was as good as Dick, Tim and Damian (and is even the best in some area) apart from his emotional problems. They need to give him some legacy as Robin apart from being the the reckless, disobedient one that died. Especially since the other were also reckless, disobedient and Damian also died (and Dick had also a lot of stories that he only survived because Bruce rescued him).

----------


## Aioros22

> In all honesty I haven't been praising excellent villains in very many DC book with the N52 myself so I don't really find that to have been a problem confined only to RHatO and RH/A. A lot of the Bat titles suffered badly handled or just plain awful villains IMHO. _BRE_ had Mother. _Batman_ had Lincoln March. _TT_ had Harvest. _B&R_ had Nobody. _Nightwing_ had Saiko and so on. By and large and even among the higher tier books I've found most of the villains themselves as well as their portrayals to be very mediocre and at times even forgettable. Even long standing ones, like the Joker and Ra's seem to have gotten the mediocre treatment by writers that usually have a good grasp of them. I mainly blame most of that not on the writers themselves, including Lobdell, but also on people in editorial who were perhaps micromanaging things a bit too much in their efforts to have all the books keep to the same tonal quality.


Do I agree. The bat line certainly branched out in with the reboot at least to new audiences but if there`s one massive failure across the board is villains. What new villains there are to actual praise for? The Talons? The _god forbid_ Mother? I can say I at least enjoyed the Untitled and Iron Rule but are they makings of classics? Not really. 

There`s none and it shows when the higest profiled stories in the line have been on villains that are already mainstream.

----------


## Rise

We are officially one week away from RHATO Rebirth! I wonder when are we getting the preview?

----------


## REAL

It's either in the next few days or the day before rhato come out.

----------


## Rise

Do you think this series will do well in sales this time?

----------


## REAL

Dunno and I can't say that I care how much it will make.

----------


## Rise

What if it get cancelled?

----------


## REAL

So be it, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. 

And who knows, maybe they will finally give us the long awaited Red Hood solo. 

In second thought, DC will probably not even think about it. So I hope at least they retire him and give him good ending.

----------


## Rise

Oooh, what you have in mind for good ending for Jason?

----------


## REAL

Definitely not killing him again because this will be really cheap. 

The guy deserves his happy ending considering what he has been through. So I think it will best if he decided to leave the vigilant life behind and try the normal life, but he really need a good reason for it because Jason is restless.

----------


## Rise

What if they give him a KID!

----------


## REAL

Not bad. I can see Jason retire the red hood mantle to make sure that his kid get a normal life and grow up in safe environment.

----------


## Rise

Jason will be a great father <3. Where do you think he will decide to live?

----------


## REAL

Not Gotham certainly. It's not safe and Jason isn't fond of it. 

I think he will choose a quiet place to live in. So maybe the countryside?

----------


## Rise

Definitely the countryside. 

I can't believe that we are discussing the retirement of our favorite character lol. 

We are really different kind of fans, Jan  :Big Grin: .

----------


## REAL

I guess we are.

----------


## AJpyro

> So be it, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. 
> 
> And who knows, maybe they will finally give us the long awaited Red Hood solo. 
> 
> In second thought, DC will probably not even think about it. So I hope at least they retire him and give him good ending.


Spread the word through social media and your friends. Every dollar counts. Tell them of the digital if they don't want physical copies to clutter their room.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not bad. I can see Jason retire the red hood mantle to make sure that his kid get a normal life and grow up in safe environment.


Jason should adopt Scarlet.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, the preview for the Rebirt: Outlaws is out.  I`m stocked. Couple of points:

 a) Color work. I like the palette more than I thought I would. Love how the only red in the pages is on Jason, throught cloathing and ballons. 

 b) The first exchange about the Batmobile could sound better even with those words but we get to the point with what should be there with the added (and much better) exchange between Jason and Bruce at the Hill. 

 c) Is it me or in recent years Bruce seems to act the most normal with Jason over any of the others? From staying off a night patrol to stay with Jay to make him company to eating a burger sitting on cars. I`m assuming it`s a burger. It`s just awesome how he seems to lower his guard with Jason. 

 Also, it`s ironic since Jason once said to Barbara in a flashback that Bruce was so stiff he wouldn`t eat a chilly dog to save his life. 

 d) Is Loedbell expanding Jason`s degree in criminology? As Miller recently commented in "Last Crusade" that was the area he needed to work the most in opposition to combat. Might be he`s actually paying mention to Jason`s skills back then, which were said to be good, even if Dick was more accomplished in most areas, like deductive skills. 

 e) I like the mention that Jason even before Batman was already a figther. Readers today wouldn`t know (especially with Loebisms around) but in the original Collins origin, Jason was already good enough to fight off kids older than him, usually more than one at the same time. There`s a scene in Ma Gunn`s school where they only managed to overpower him acting as a unit to pile on him. Same thing happened with the crazy mob in Legends. 

 Overall I like how it starts. I wish there was back stories material as well or a standalone miniseries of Jason with this color palette. Grey values with just the red on him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason should adopt Scarlet.


This talk of Jason retiring is kind of out there. He`s a character with popularity and market potential. If these Outlaws don`t make it, they`ll do something else with him. 

But let`s say they do one day make a possible future with him retiring. Yeah, have him adopt Scarlet with JD having an obssesive fixation on him while he solves cases around. Vertigo/Noir style. Heck have Isabel being the clueless normality of his life in the middle of this visual chaos.

And have him mutter "Hey Death" when chasing some rapist or slave trader.

----------


## Aahz

> c) Is it me or in recent years Bruce seems to act the most normal with Jason over any of the others? From staying off a night patrol to stay with Jay to make him company to eating a burger sitting on cars. I`m assuming it`s a burger. It`s just awesome how he seems to lower his guard with Jason.


Maybe the writer are trying again to go for a Bruce that doesn't act like a jerk (which can of course change again in few year when Bruce decides again to go back to the roots and work alone and chases everybody away). But on the other hand it is in line with the original, since during Collins and Barrs runs Bruce was still a pretty nice guy. And even under Jim Starlin he was still quite good with Kids like you can see in Batman #423.





> d) Is Loedbell expanding Jason`s degree in criminology? As Miller recently commented in "Last Crusade" that was the area he needed to work the most in opposition to combat. Might be he`s actually paying mention to Jason`s skills back then, which were said to be good, even if Dick was more accomplished in most areas, like deductive skills.


Allready in RH/A #7 Jason stated that he had the knowledge of an CSI team at the age of 17. And in Secret Origins #5 was also impressed by Jason scientific skills (even if Jason stated that this was for him the hardest part of the training).




> e) I like the mention that Jason even before Batman was already a figther. Readers today wouldn`t know (especially with Loebisms around) but in the original Collins origin, Jason was already good enough to fight off kids older than him, usually more than one at the same time. There`s a scene in Ma Gunn`s school where they only managed to overpower him acting as a unit to pile on him. Same thing happened with the crazy mob in Legends.


They only need to acknowledge it in the Events.

But I would really prefer a origin story more like the original or the DCAU-Tim origin, where he is more presented as a "street smart adventurer" and not just a starving street kid. You really see why Bruce thought that he would make a good Robin.

Btw. it is probably unintentional but when Dick was attacked by bullies in juvie (Robin Annual #4), he fought much more acrobatic than Jason but far less effective.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So, Kotobukiya will make a line of figures that is pretty much the bishoujo equivalent for girls, called Ikemen. The first in the line is to the surprise of no one, Nightwing. This matters to us because they have planned (so far at least) to make all the sons of Batman and the big man himself.

https://twitter.com/mamegyorai_jp/st...63137049088000

Not the way I expected a new Jason statue but hey, I won't complain.

----------


## Rise

I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

----------


## Aioros22

Neither. It`s good that there`s a market directed for the female and gay readership. They deserve that sweet exploitation too  :Wink: 

Not to mention, Jason`s by far the best of the bunch from the sample. Dick is the slut of the gang with the whole main feature being (to no one`s surprise) his butt. Tim looks a giggly smartass, Bruce looks a stoic greek statue (also to no one`s surprise and I would`ve enjoy being surprise with him), Damian is...I know they`re going with Kawaii but since he`s underaged I`m not even commenting. 

Jason`s just being cool because it`s what he is.

----------


## G-Potion

Curious what costume they'll use for Jason since they don't seem to stick to N52 in the Nightwing picture. Any hope for the white streak?

----------


## Rise

> Neither. It`s good that there`s a market directed for the female and gay readership. They deserve that sweet exploitation too 
> 
> Not to mention, Jason`s by far the best of the bunch from the sample. Dick is the slut of the gang with the whole main feature being (to no one`s surprise) his butt. Tim looks a giggly smartass, Bruce looks a stoic greek statue (also to no one`s surprise and I would`ve enjoy being surprise with him), Damian is...I know they`re going with Kawaii but since he`s underaged I`m not even commenting. 
> 
> Jason`s just being cool because it`s what he is.


I'm female. So I guess I'm one of their target  :Stick Out Tongue: . 

And indeed no comment about Damian lol.

----------


## Aioros22

They missed Alfred  :Big Grin: 

They`ll likely just use the iconic Red Hood template (either UTRH or Rockaforte`s depending they use the bat logo or not). I`m thinking the later since Rockaforte`s linework is totally bishi and in line with the asthetics here. Same for the color palette that went along with it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Curious what costume they'll use for Jason since they don't seem to stick to N52 in the Nightwing picture. Any hope for the white streak?


Odds are they will go with the Outlaws design. DC seems to have settled with it as the de facto outfit for Jason.

----------


## AJpyro

> They missed Alfred 
> 
> They`ll likely just use the iconic Red Hood template (either UTRH or Rockaforte`s depending they use the bat logo or not). I`m thinking the later since Rockaforte`s linework is totally bishi and in line with the asthetics here. Same for the color palette that went along with it.


Dude. Alfred is too much. 

The money DC would get would break the bank.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

They could finally beat Marvel at something this year.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Blue Beetle and Wonder Woman were revealed at SDCC where a young fan asked about Red Hood, and Boon said demand for him was nearly as great as Blue Beetle. Members of the Suicide Squad may also show up, and not just in DLC.


There is hope people.

----------


## Aioros22

Weird, I`d consider Jason a natural fit in and not Blue Bettle, but hey. 

Still glad he can pop up anytime now!

----------


## oasis1313

I'd rather Blue Beetle stayed out of Jason's book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Er, that was about Injustice 2

----------


## REAL

> Spread the word through social media and your friends. Every dollar counts. Tell them of the digital if they don't want physical copies to clutter their room.


It's dc job to promote their books, not mine. 

And what the heck is going? Why do we have almost 200 visitors on Batman section?

----------


## Rise

lol Jan, where have you been? Bruce and Barbara are a thing in TKJ movie and DC is planning to kill Tim.

----------


## Aioros22

Get ready for the new days batties!

----------


## REAL

Killing four Robins isn't enough for them? And wasn't Bruce and Barbara always a thing in Timmverse? 

And Rise, what the heck was the thing you posted on the previous page?

----------


## Rise

Something for us female readers  :Cool: .

And they committed a character assassination in the movie, Jan!

----------


## REAL

Of who? Bruce or Barbara? Because the characterization of Barbara in the comic wasn't good to begin with.

----------


## Rise

I honestly don't care, but things are getting really good. So prepare your popcorn, Jan.

----------


## REAL

Nah, I will pass.

----------


## Drako

None robin was mentioned in the movie, but they put this easter egg in the Killing Joke. 
I think you guys may like. Or not, i don't know how jason fans reacts to the exploitation of his death. 

I won't put the image here because can be a spoiler, but there is a link to a facebook page with it.
https://www.facebook.com/Bruceblogge...type=3&theater

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Of course Jason would be there. And is that a Ledger reference I spy?

----------


## Aioros22

It totally is. The screen is a collection of some of Joker`s most popular stories/renditions. From the Laugthing Fish to DITF to TAS and the movies.

----------


## Aahz

Problem with it is just that DITF is set directly after TKJ.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Problem with it is just that DITF is set directly after TKJ.


Clearly not in this version.

I am the only one bothered that RHATO is once again being passed out by DC? Every other book has a presence on their panels but neither Lobdell nor Sor are there for chris' sakes!

----------


## Rise

DC passed out many of their books though. 

And it's doesn't bother me because comic book panels are kind of pointless because anyone who bother to go to them already know about their books and they hardly give us anything we don't already know anyway.

----------


## Aioros22

> Clearly not in this version


They might not be setting any continuity whatsoever. It`s a screen of Joker`s Best Hits. 




> I am the only one bothered that RHATO is once again being passed out by DC? Every other book has a presence on their panels but neither Lobdell nor Sor are there for chris' sakes!


Panels be panels but it does bother me when it happens, regardless of the book. Unless it`s a writer that editorial is really hyping behind I think they don` do much. I prefer comic book blogs and websites to do most of promoting because word of mouth is more autentic.

----------


## Aahz

I just finished reading the Arkham Knight Novelization (didn't play the game) and the plot seems kind of a mess, Scarecrows plan doesn't make much sense for me and I don't really get why Jason worked with him in the first place.
It works probably better as game than as a book. And the timeline of the events in that continuity is still kind of unclear for me.

----------


## Aioros22

Not into gaming Aahz?

If you want a feel of what story they wanted to make I`d just take the game and read Genesis. The two aren`t perfectly cohesive but its where the potential lie.

----------


## REAL

Rise, it has finall been _confirmed_ that joker isn't Jason. 

 :Cool:

----------


## Rise

Aww, lol. OK, I will not bring it again. Maybe.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

The interesting part of the video was when he said that he learned from DP and BvS to listen to the fans. 

Do you think there's a big chance that WB will introduce Jason? Especially considering that many fans wants him to be in DCEU?

----------


## REAL

Well, Jason was already introduced in the DCEU. He was confirmed to be the dead robin in BvS after all. 

Whether they bring him in as Red Hood or not is the question.

----------


## Rise

I hope they do. Seeing Red Hood in the big screen would be an awesome experience.

----------


## Aahz

This theory made never much sense, they wouldn't do such a stunt with your most famous villain. That would only make sense if Joker would die in one movie and if they would than bring in a second Joker.

----------


## BloodOps

> Well, Jason was already introduced in the DCEU. He was confirmed to be the dead robin in BvS after all. 
> 
> Whether they bring him in as Red Hood or not is the question.


Confirmed? Are we talking about that video DC put out and quickly took down? Or am I out of the loop, 99.9% chance it is Jason Todd but I haven't heard any news about it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Uh, I hope Jason doesn't gets dragged into this

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articl...-/1100-155872/

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Just a friendly reminder that Comixology currently has the full RHATO Vol 1 and the first eight issues of RH/A on sale. Just $0.99!!! The sale ends on August First! 

https://www.comixology.com/DC-Univer...FsbENhcm91c2Vs

----------


## Aahz

> Uh, I hope Jason doesn't gets dragged into this
> 
> http://comicvine.gamespot.com/articl...-/1100-155872/


The story could fit for him, it is more the writer, who I don't want to write Jason.

----------


## Rise

Interview with Lobdell about the new RHATO REBIRTH! 

http://www.newsarama.com/30400-rebir...es-origin.html

----------


## Aioros22

> The story could fit for him, it is more the writer, who I don't want to write Jason.


Yeah it could. Personally I`d rather he not appear. I prefer a Jason who stands with his own agenda as his main priority (regardless of helping). I don`t like the idea of writers being too comfortable in using him as Bruce miniom. If Jason ever ends in Suicide Squad, it would make a better story the reason being something other than coming from the inside.

----------


## Aioros22

> Interview with Lobdell about the new RHATO REBIRTH! 
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/30400-rebir...es-origin.html


Oh oh, I enjoyed the heck out of the interview. To Jason`s "one of the most complex characters....analytical and tactical" to Bizarro not being stupid, to Artemis being someone Jason will respect right away because both were trained as warriors (I hope this is a hint that his later warrior monk training still stands...). I like his approach of not altering a character for a new volume but instead let the character adapt to new things, just like in real life. 

So far it seems I`ll enjoy it. Good stuff.

----------


## AJpyro

> Interview with Lobdell about the new RHATO REBIRTH! 
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/30400-rebir...es-origin.html


Nice interview. August is gonna be a great month.

----------


## G-Potion

> Interview with Lobdell about the new RHATO REBIRTH! 
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/30400-rebir...es-origin.html



Thanks, *Rise*. It's a good day to read so many nice things about RHATO. And Lobdell really nailed it here.

----------


## REAL

> Confirmed? Are we talking about that video DC put out and quickly took down? Or am I out of the loop, 99.9% chance it is Jason Todd but I haven't heard any news about it.


Why do you seem angery, dude? There was a report about the guide guy who was told to say that the Robin suit belong to Jason and I take it as confirmation. 

If you're unhappy with this, then it's _semi_-confirmed that Jason is the dead robin in BvS. 




> Interview with Lobdell about the new RHATO REBIRTH! 
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/30400-rebir...es-origin.html


The interview was great, especially these parts:




> Artemis is someone he is going to respect almost immediately - recall he was trained as a warrior later in life. She's been taught to kick ass from day one.
> 
> Bizarro is a never-ending source of fascination for Jason. The guy is just so... bizarre. For someone as analytical and tactical as Jason, the sheer uniqueness of Bizarro leaves Jason always wondering what Bizarro is going to do or think next.
> 
> And anyone expecting "dumb Bizarro" is going to be disappointed. This is a Bizarro who isn't "stupid" — he is a Bizarro who thinks... bizarre. You will love him!


I was really worried about Bizarro, but this made me really excited to see him. 

And I can't wait to see Artemis too and how Jason will interact with her. 




> There is almost not a panel that doesn't get used somewhere down the line. (Lots of Easter eggs are going to be bringing readers back to the Rebirth issue again and again over the next few months!)


Very interesting. 




> Dexter laughed at me after he turned in the page where Red Hood assaults a speeding limousine. You'll know it when you see it. And I wrote him a note about how happy I was that I could depend on him to draw anything no matter how impossible. He joked around "Wha -- ?! Why is it your goal to have me draw the impossible?!"


Oh man, can't wait to see this scene!

----------


## Rise

Yeah, the interview made me really interested in Bizarro & Artemis. 

What did you like best about the new issue, Jan?

----------


## REAL

I liked the whole issue to be honest. 

Btw, congratulation for the 100+ posts, *Rise*.y

----------


## Rise

Thanks, Jan!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rise

JAN!  JAN!  JAN! 

He did it! HE ACTUALLY DID IT! He burned the _book_! 

I WIN!  :Cool:

----------


## REAL

What the heck? How? And why?

----------


## Rise

It doesn't matter. I win and you lose. 

Deal is deal. No posting for a WEEK!

----------


## REAL

Oh come on, I would have totally take it easy on you.

----------


## Rise

LIE! You totally wouldn't! Actually, I'm pretty sure that you would have made it a _month_ because I know you. 

Now, go away!

----------


## REAL

Alright alright alright. 

I will take it as a man and will not post for a week. 

I would have totally made it a month..

----------


## Rise

I know! 

And here a gift for you because I'm nice person.

----------


## oasis1313

> I know! 
> 
> And here a gift for you because I'm nice person.


So that means Jason had to wear Dick's old costume in THIS continuity, too????!!!!!!!

----------


## Aioros22

Doesn`t look much different than his own reboot costume, altho I`d venture that for a first mission, he would`ve until he`d made a point of wanting his own flavour. The mask seems darker than it should, regardless. Now, here`s the detail I like: Batman smiles the mos in photo flashbacks with Jason almost over anyone else. Anyone notice that? Look at that unbashed Bat smile! Not a sneer of sarcasm on sight  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aahz

No the sleeveless costume with thee boomerang shaped golden things on the breast and the legs is Jasons new 52 costume.

Dicks new 52 costume looks like this. And Jason was wearing it only in one flash back in RH/A, and that was very likely just a mistake of the artist.




Jasons castume is imo the better reinterpretation of the classic costume of the two, but would have preferred a darker and more unique look for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah Aahz is right, I didn`t even recall Dick`s Robin costume had sleeves (cue in to how forgettable that thing is) I was more in the doubt because of the dark mask, since Jason`s Robin suit had him wear a red mask in pretty much every flashback, down to the that cool animated sequence at the end of RHAA. 

IMHO, is definatly the best of the bunch, easily.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah Aahz is right, I didn`t even recall Dick`s Robin costume had sleeves (cue in to how forgettable that thing is) I was more in the doubt because of the dark mask, since Jason`s Robin suit had him wear a red mask in pretty much every flashback, down to the that cool animated sequence at the end of RHAA.


The mask is red on picture, it is due to the colouring and the small size just not that easy to see.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The mask is red on picture, it is due to the colouring and the small size just not that easy to see.


Yep

----------


## Rise

A very well written article about Jason and RHaTO Rebirth by Andrew Dice. 

http://screenrant.com/red-hood-rebir...on-todd-comic/

It's a gift from Jan (REAL) who can't be with us right now ( :Stick Out Tongue: ) and recommend it to you guys (especially you Aahz).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Wow! Great find!

This article is very well written and researched. Is refreshing to see all the love the book is getting.

----------


## thwhtGuardian

the Rebirth issue didn't give us much to go on concerning what the series will be like but man what a great story for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Anyone noticed the interesting dicotomy between how Jason and Dick currently deal with bat daddy in their Rebirth launch? Dick is the one Bruce trusts the most but keeps asking questions about what he should do whereas Jason is the opposite telling Bruce to just trust him and stop asking questions.

----------


## G-Potion

> A very well written article about Jason and RHaTO Rebirth by Andrew Dice. 
> 
> http://screenrant.com/red-hood-rebir...on-todd-comic/
> 
> It's a gift from Jan (REAL) who can't be with us right now () and recommend it to you guys (especially you Aahz).



Thanks Rise! That is one of the better written reviews I've seen so far.





> Anyone noticed the interesting dicotomy between how Jason and Dick currently deal with bat daddy in their Rebirth launch? Dick is the one Bruce trusts the most but keeps asking questions about what he should do whereas Jason is the opposite telling Bruce to just trust him and stop asking questions.


That's an interesting way to see it, and I agree. Still, the talk between Dick and Bruce fell short of delivering whatever significance it's supposed to have when I first read it. It reads better now that there's RHATO side by side to compare with and make you see the contrast. 

Although, certain fans will just tell you that RHATO is simply copying what Grayson has done for Dick, regardless of the nuances. :P

----------


## Aioros22

> That's an interesting way to see it, and I agree. Still, the talk between Dick and Bruce fell short of delivering whatever significance it's supposed to have when I first read it. It reads better now that there's RHATO side by side to compare with and make you see the contrast


It`s just a nice constrast because it`s real. That said RATHO was better executed. 




> Although, certain fans will just tell you that RHATO is simply copying what Grayson has done for Dick, regardless of the nuances. :P


They would have to be devoid of any creativity, for obvious reasons.

----------


## Aahz

> and recommend it to you guys (especially you Aahz).


Why?
It is not rthat I don't like the new direction, it is just that it is time that the writers start to give Jason some legacy as Robin apart from "being not Dick", "being out of control" and "being a failure" and that they really need to highlight (and clearly spell out) his positive skill and traits in they way they are doing it for example with Dick and Tim at the moment, otherwise we will never get consistent portrait of him across the franchise and more such crappy takes on him as in the Eternals.

And at the moment it is kind of the opposite, as soon as Jason kicks some ass (which happens rarely enough), half the time the writers seem to feel the need to come up wit an explanation like Jason was cheating, his opponent was holding back or is opponent was weakened by something.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Why?
> It is not rthat I don't like the new direction, it is just that it is time that the writers start to give Jason some legacy as Robin apart from "being not Dick", "being out of control" and "being a failure" and that they really need to highlight (and clearly spell out) his positive skill and traits in they way they are doing it for example with Dick and Tim at the moment, otherwise we will never get consistent portrait of him across the franchise and more such crappy takes on him as in the Eternals.
> 
> And at the moment it is kind of the opposite, as soon as Jason kicks some ass (which happens rarely enough), half the time the writers seem to feel the need to come up wit an explanation like Jason was cheating, his opponent was holding back or is opponent was weakened by something.


Matter of perspective. You wouldn't believe the sheer amount of people I've found believing that Lobdell writes a "so perfect" Jason able to beat everyone's ass. When actually he bothers to keep things properly in scale and was Tynion the one that wrote Jason beating everyone effortlessly.

----------


## Aioros22

I`ve said this before. You gotta take the good and the bad. What was the excuse for Shiva and Cass and Bronze Tiger and Talia? His record is among the best since he came back. I know Aazh won`t agree with me on this and I get that he`s talking more about how his character and abilities are kind of pushed under in some crossovers, but it happens to everyone..save Batman. 

Slowly and steady let`s allow Jason t gain more and more of his footing in the larger DC mythos. He`s only returned in less than a decade and already accomplished a great deal.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Would it be odd to say that Jason would and should be more of the Daredevil of the bat group in regard to his skills and the villains he faces?

----------


## Aahz

> I know Aazh won`t agree with me on this and I get that he`s talking more about how his character and abilities are kind of pushed under in some crossovers, but it happens to everyone..save Batman.


Tim and Dick are quite pushed at the moment. We are constantly reminded that Tim is genius and in B&RE he was called Batmans only true partner, and Bruce said that he envied his stratgic sense, and Dick is since the start of "Grayson" in general presented as super awesome and the one person Bruce trusts the most.
And for Jason I don't saw that kind of push. That is not a big problem for his solo (even if I would definitely like to see Jason kick more ass than in RH/A) but it makes the big events for me as Jason fan hardly enjoyable to read, since it often feels that he is not really needed,and is imo not really helping to promote him (which is usually a reason why you put a character in a cross over).




> What was the excuse for Shiva and Cass and Bronze Tiger and Talia?


It is said that 
- Jason could only beat Shiva by using a short cut she showed him, and that she was otherwise out of his league
- He could beat Ras in sword fight because Ras couldn't control his new powers
- Cass was holding back when she fought him

Bronze Tiger was beaten by Starfire ad I don't remember him fighting Talia.

----------


## Rise

I saw this on twitter and it made me laugh  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I saw this on twitter and it made me laugh


OMG Priceless!  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

Great pic.  I'd rather see Jason AWAY from the Bat-Family.  He owes them NOTHING.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Not a fan of Mr. Todd here but watching Michael Pitt in Boardwalk Empire I had an epiphany. He's Jason. The core/broad strokes of the character is there and how he develops over the course of the show. Manymany parallels between Pitt's character and Batman's second Robin. Now, thanks to that show and Michael Pitt I've started to like the Red Hood. Strange?

----------


## Aioros22

Aazh: 

. Shiva was taken down in a single panel. If she allows a shortcut and he`s able to knock her down, whether she`s otherwise more skilled or not is kind of irrelevant. Nobody else of the franchise was written to be able to do the same save Bruce. 

. "New powers". Yeah, Ras couldn`t take down someone who got used to "new powers" in mid fight.

. Jason was doing well against Bronze Tiger while getting lip service IIRC.  

. Cass was said to not wanting to kill anyone later but Jason _actively counter striked her_ and was about to. Again, whether Cass is supposed to be more skilled is irrelevant. Dick was punked in two panels while hyperboling himself. 

. They didn`t fought. Jason simply learned a technique without a proper teacher that Talia had been instructed to learn (under Ducra) and never properly could. 


He got lesser showings against Barbara (letting her hit him) Bane (figthing like an in diot) and Damian (hit and run) but all in all, I don`t feel much need to complain. Could always be better but that`s besides the point.

----------


## Aahz

> Aazh: 
> 
> . Shiva was taken down in a single panel. If she allows a shortcut and he`s able to knock her down, whether she`s otherwise more skilled or not is kind of irrelevant. Nobody else of the franchise was written to be able to do the same save Bruce. 
> 
> . "New powers". Yeah, Ras couldn`t take down someone who got used to "new powers" in mid fight.
> 
> . Jason was doing well against Bronze Tiger while getting lip service IIRC.  
> 
> . Cass was said to not wanting to kill anyone later but Jason _actively counter striked her_ and was about to. Again, whether Cass is supposed to be more skilled is irrelevant. Dick was punked in two panels while hyperboling himself. 
> ...


That doesn't change that the writers made it quite clear that Jason wasn't on the level of the opponents he took down.

Fights where Jason clearly wins against a dangerous opponent without a comment like this have been quite rare, pre flashpoint. Jason gets even in his own book much more kicked around than the other Batfamily members. 

And Bronze Tigers was actually about to kill Jason when Starfire steped in.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

PreFlashpoint Jason was never depicted as winning a fight without cheating either.

----------


## oasis1313

They need to start treating Jason's book like it's JASON'S book.  He deserves better than he's getting.

----------


## REAL

> I saw this on twitter and it made me laugh


Good one, Rise.

----------


## Rise

Welcome back! 

The forum wasn't the same for me without you here, Jan.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> That doesn't change that the writers made it quite clear that Jason wasn't on the level of the opponents he took down.


You`re being a tad hard with the whole notion. Jason hasn`t been described as being less skilled than the other boys since he came back. Damian is repeatadly sold as less than the others, only winning with lucky shots and uwillingness of the others in being serious. Jason ends up more skilled than Talia and skilled enough to win against Shiva and Cass, something Dick couldn`t ido n two different ocassions. Tim has fangirled over Jason`s abilities in RATHO.




> Fights where Jason clearly wins against a dangerous opponent without a comment like this have been quite rare, pre flashpoint. Jason gets even in his own book much more kicked around than the other Batfamily members.


Pre Flashpoint, Jason had a bunch of solo arcs and a miniseries but book? But let`s rewind, in which books did he gave beatings to Tim and Damian and traded ties with Bruce and Dick? In which books did he made both Tim and Dick look bad by hitting them both at the same time while mocking their intelligence? 




> And Bronze Tigers was actually about to kill Jason when Starfire steped in.


I need to re-read that but I don`t recall Tiger wanting to kill Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> PreFlashpoint Jason was never depicted as winning a fight without cheating either.


If asserting your advantages and situations count as cheating. We`ve read Bruce, Tim and Dick do the same thing in return.

Case in point, he didn`t cheat against Tim the first time. He didn`t need to. In BFTC, even with Tim "cheating", Jason still had him beat.

----------


## Aahz

> Pre Flashpoint, Jason had a bunch of solo arcs and a miniseries but book? But let`s rewind, in which books did he gave beatings to Tim and Damian and traded ties with Bruce and Dick? In which books did he made both Tim and Dick look bad by hitting them both at the same time while mocking their intelligence?


Sorry I meant post flashpoint.

----------


## Lhynn

> Case in point, he didn`t cheat against Tim the first time. He didn`t need to. In BFTC, even with Tim "cheating", Jason still had him beat.


Those are some really rose tinted glasses there. Jason threw dirt on Tims eye because even after being ambushed he managed to fight back and beat jason. And in BFTC tim didnt cheat, he was handily beating his ass fairly, until jason went lethal putting a batarang on his "little brothers" chest. After Tim got him out of jail and let him into the batcave too.
I personally thought the crowbar was an asshole move, but one clearly aimed at intimidating, it hardly counts as fighting dirty.

That was the real jason, not this new 52 mellow interpretation.

----------


## godisawesome

> You`re being a tad hard with the whole notion. Jason hasn`t been described as being less skilled than the other boys since he came back. Damian is repeatadly sold as less than the others, only winning with lucky shots and uwillingness of the others in being serious. Jason ends up more skilled than Talia and skilled enough to win against Shiva and Cass, something Dick couldn`t ido n two different ocassions. Tim has fangirled over Jason`s abilities in RATHO.
> 
> 
> 
> *Pre Flashpoint, Jason had a bunch of solo arcs and a miniseries but book? But let`s rewind, in which books did he gave beatings to Tim and Damian and traded ties with Bruce and Dick? In which books did he made both Tim and Dick look bad by hitting them both at the same time while mocking their intelligence?*


If if remember correctly, he's clocked Tim with one hit in Hush (since they retconned the first part of that fight to be Jason), delivered a beatdown on Tim in Teen Titans under Geoff Johns (where you could tell they were still formulating his characterization), had a close match that was heavily interfered with by the General and by a thug who Tim both dived in front of to save and then shot Jason with his own gun, resulting in Jason being arrested,  then had the Battle For the Cowl fight, where Jason won, but seemed crazy at the time.

I think Bruce mostly had his number, since Bruce resoundingly won their last fight in Under the Red Hood, but Jason did fight to a draw a few times before then.

He and Scarlet subdued Dick and Damian in B&R, and the incident where he mocked Dick and Tim while fighting them was in the less-well recieved Teen Titans issues OYL, where he kneed them both in the nuts, and after a talk, Tim returned the favor.

I do think it's important to note that most writers seemed to have Jason creatively rely on his weaponry and other such tactics in the fights, which might imply that if he went straight-up hand-to-hand with his brothers, he _might_ lose, but you can't really fault him for just using Batman's tactics on a larger scale. Plus, his beatdowns of Tim tended to lean a bit on the simple physics of being a larger combatant, similar to Tim manhandling Damian in the rematch they had in Red Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason threw dirt on Tims eye because even after being ambushed he managed to fight back and beat jason.


Edit: and Tim thows smoke(?) bombs at him. 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...titans29_5.jpg
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files....inredhood9.jpg

As for "beating" Jason, Tim`s in Nicieza`s run was the closest he got. TRJT outsmarted him big time in BFTC. 




> And in BFTC tim didnt cheat, he was handily beating his ass fairly, until jason went lethal putting a batarang on his "little brothers" chest. After Tim got him out of jail and let him into the batcave too.
> I personally thought the crowbar was an asshole move, but one clearly aimed at intimidating, it hardly counts as fighting dirty.


"Fairly" with the crowbar. 

Once again when it comes to Tim the definition somehow skids off. I have to agree about the rosed tinted glasses there. 

Edit: I actually checklisted this due to being the only point I wasn`t sure and the very beginning of Nicieza`s Red Robin comes right before BFTC? That makes Daniel`s characterization across the board bad. The only good thing about it was Jason`s Batman design. Cool look. 




> That was the real jason, not this new 52 mellow interpretation.


"the real Jason"

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/z...nkLaughGIF.gif

It`s not about you even wanting to be accurate when it comes to him, you just want him to fit exactly in the mold you want and that conversely makes someone else shine by contrast.

----------


## Aioros22

> If if remember correctly, he's clocked Tim with one hit in Hush (since they retconned the first part of that fight to be Jason), delivered a beatdown on Tim in Teen Titans under Geoff Johns (where you could tell they were still formulating his characterization), had a close match that was heavily interfered with by the General and by a thug who Tim both dived in front of to save and then shot Jason with his own gun, resulting in Jason being arrested,  then had the Battle For the Cowl fight, where Jason won, but seemed crazy at the time.
> 
> I think Bruce mostly had his number, since Bruce resoundingly won their last fight in Under the Red Hood, but Jason did fight to a draw a few times before then.
> 
> He and Scarlet subdued Dick and Damian in B&R, and the incident where he mocked Dick and Tim while fighting them was in the less-well recieved Teen Titans issues OYL, where he kneed them both in the nuts, and after a talk, Tim returned the favor.
> 
> I do think it's important to note that most writers seemed to have Jason creatively rely on his weaponry and other such tactics in the fights, which might imply that if he went straight-up hand-to-hand with his brothers, he _might_ lose, but you can't really fault him for just using Batman's tactics on a larger scale. Plus, his beatdowns of Tim tended to lean a bit on the simple physics of being a larger combatant, similar to Tim manhandling Damian in the rematch they had in Red Robin.


I can agree with your take on it but not on him being creative as = writers necessarily think he might lose if he went hand to hand. Could be true, but I think he showed physically enough for us to know that whereas Dick might have been more skilled pre flashpoint, the gap was small whereas physicaly they matched well in most areas (see another brief fight they have in The Outsiders where both only use standard gear). 

That being said I can`t disagree much with it since technically in none of these do we get an especific description of skill comparison besides Bruce somewhat holding back. If ther`s some other feel free to point it out.

----------


## REAL

> Welcome back! 
> 
> The forum wasn't the same for me without you here, Jan.







> That was the real jason, not this new 52 mellow interpretation.


What do you know about "the real Jason" when it quite obvious that you hardly read any of his stories?

----------


## godisawesome

> I can agree with your take on it but not on him being creative as = writers necessarily think he might lose if he went hand to hand. Could be true, but I think he showed physically enough for us to know that whereas Dick might have been more skilled pre flashpoint, the gap was small whereas physicaly they matched well in most areas (see another brief fight they have in The Outsiders where both only use standard gear). 
> 
> That being said I can`t disagree much with it since technically in none of these do we get an especific description of skill comparison besides Bruce somewhat holding back. If ther`s some other feel free to point it out.


Jason was holding back in two of those confrontations as well;  Tim noted that Jason's initial fusillade of fire in their Robin confrontation was designed to draw Tim closer, not actually hit Tim, while him shooting Dikc point-blank in the armored chest could have been a bullet through his jaw if he wanted to. And really, the only rule that should maybe apply to the Robins if they tussle should be "moments of mercy" where a fight is clearly over and the other guy has to save his opponent, and whether or not you have outside help. Basically, all fights should be no DQ (break out the chairs, sledgehammers, and nut shots) but interference and post-match attacks don't count.

I just prefer that seniority still play into the overall fisticuffs thing, albeit like you said, with Dick and Jaosn being very close, and with both guys employing radically different fighting styles. Dick's acrobatic background and use of escrima makes me think of him as being a bit more finesse and maneuverability, while Jason seems like the efficient high powered brawler; if they were boxers, Dick would be a combination out-boxer and swarmer, avoiding major hits while throwing a huge amount of surgical strikes back in return, while Jason would be a combination slugger and swarmer, picking great shots with high power, but always going for offense and having insane speed as well to overwhelm an opponent. To continue the analogy, I'd think of Tim and Damian as being more one dimensional, since neither is fully grown or matured as a fighter yet; Tim's the out-boxer, playing defense for an opening and trying to avoid getting hit, while Damian is a swarmer because at his size, he really can't do anything else yet.

By the by, any actual Dick vs Jason fight should be close enough you really couldn't tell who would win, but with Dick generally coming out on top just because of experience and being moderately more exploitive of openings; not to say Jason isn't, but one guy did win the Battle for the Cowl after all, and as much as the writing was bad in that story, I did like the physics of Dick realizing that Jason would go for a "off his feet" knockout blow against a bland Grayson and reacted accordingly.

----------


## G-Potion

> That was the real jason, not this new 52 mellow interpretation.


So the one story regarded as the worst characterization of Jason by majority of fan has the real Jason? Okay. Keep in mind that BFTC's Jason has very little in common with UTRH, which is often THE Jason story, if one has to choose.

----------


## Aahz

> So the one story regarded as the worst characterization of Jason by majority of fan has the real Jason? Okay. Keep in mind that BFTC's Jason has very little in common with UTRH, which is often THE Jason story, if one has to choose.


The real Jason is imo UTRH, Red Hood the lost Days, and his gueat appearences in Green Arrow and Outsiders, most others I have read (basically everything appart from count down) are imo out of character.

----------


## Aahz

> By the by, any actual Dick vs Jason fight should be close enough you really couldn't tell who would win, but with Dick generally coming out on top just because of experience and being moderately more exploitive of openings; not to say Jason isn't, but one guy did win the Battle for the Cowl after all, and as much as the writing was bad in that story, I did like the physics of Dick realizing that Jason would go for a "off his feet" knockout blow against a bland Grayson and reacted accordingly.


I agree that they should be close, but since in Dicks case it are usually his acrobatic and leader ship skills that are highlighted and in Jasons case it are usually the fighting skills I would see Jason slightly on top.

And iirc it was mentioned somewhere that Jason gets sloppy when he gets angry, and thats exactly what Dick uses in BFTC to win by showing him Bruce video testament.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And iirc it was mentioned somewhere that Jason gets sloppy when he gets angry, and thats exactly what Dick uses in BFTC to win by showing him Bruce video testament.


I think it was more than just anger that Jason was showing there. I believe whatever he saw in that video actually caused him to have a complete mental breakdown and that was one reason he became so sloppy in that fight.

----------


## godisawesome

Jason does seem nutso in BFTC, but even then there seems to be a noticeable decay in his sanity in story; he doesn't kill anyone when he takes down that gang in his first appearance, and the guns and explosions only emerge at the end of the first issue. Then he starts trying to murder his brothers, but without making sure they die, which is pretty sloppy for a villain.

My personal explanation for a while was that Jason was trying to honor Bruce's legacy in the cleanest fashion possible, then something happened that made him snap.

----------


## Lhynn

> Edit: and Tim thows smoke(?) bombs at him. 
> 
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...titans29_5.jpg
> https://arousinggrammardotcom.files....inredhood9.jpg


Yes, those two things are comparable :eyeroll:




> As for "beating" Jason, Tim`s in Nicieza`s run was the closest he got. TRJT outsmarted him big time in BFTC.


Outsmarted as in nearly killed you mean? yeah, i still remember that particular pearl where he almost murdered a robin because he wanted to be batman.




> "Fairly" with the crowbar.


How is that unfair? Especially when the other guy went lethal on a hero.




> It`s not about you even wanting to be accurate when it comes to him, you just want him to fit exactly in the mold you want and that conversely makes someone else shine by contrast.


He was a scumbag.

----------


## G-Potion

Another Newsarama interview  with Lobdell

http://www.newsarama.com/30552-red-h...e-bizarro.html

I guess people who keep harping on Lobdell's choice of using Bizarro and Artemis can take this up with Geoff John now.  Leave Lobdell alone.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Gamespot interview this time

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/for.../1100-6442470/

Eh, more. This one from darkknightnews.com

http://www.darkknightnews.com/2016/0...d-the-outlaws/

----------


## JasonTodd428

Loving these interviews. Thanks for posting them G.

----------


## REAL

G, you rock! Thanks for the links. 

Rise, you need to read the GameSpot interview because..... :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is fantastic that DC's capitalizing on the momentum from the Rebirth's issue to spread the word on the book. That was something that both RHA and the old RHATO lacked. As for the interviews themselves, I appreciate that despite touching similar topics, each of them adds more info to build a better picture of Lobdell's plans for the series. 

The DK-News is my favorite since the interviewer goes for the most important questions.

Good to see that Jason's time with Roy and Kori is acknowledged by Lobdell and hopefully, is referenced eventually on the book. Artemis being from Egypt is a new development? That took me by surprise (I don't know anything about her) And certainly would be interesting to have Ma Gunn as a recurrent character.

----------


## Rise

> G, you rock! Thanks for the links. 
> 
> Rise, you need to read the GameSpot interview because.....


You seriously love being vague, Jan. But I understand why you recommend it to me lol.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is fantastic that DC's capitalizing on the momentum from the Rebirth's issue to spread the word on the book. That was something that both RHA and the old RHATO lacked. As for the interviews themselves, I appreciate that despite touching similar topics, each of them adds more info to build a better picture of Lobdell's plans for the series. 
> 
> The DK-News is my favorite since the interviewer goes for the most important questions.
> 
> Good to see that Jason's time with Roy and Kori is acknowledged by Lobdell and hopefully, is referenced eventually on the book. Artemis being from Egypt is a new development? That took me by surprise (I don't know anything about her) And certainly would be interesting to have Ma Gunn as a recurrent character.



Dark, I've been meaning to ask, are you in charge of writing reviews for more books at comicbookandmoviereviews.com or just RHATO? Saw that most reviews are credited with one author.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Dark, I've been meaning to ask, are you in charge of writing reviews for more books at comicbookandmoviereviews.com or just RHATO? Saw that most reviews are credited with one author.


Just RHATO, and is not that all the reviews are done by the same guy. Is that the name at the start is from the guy who uploads them (the site's owner). The actual author for the reviews are found at the end of it.

----------


## G-Potion

Ah I see. Totally missed that. Thanks!

----------


## Aioros22

> Yes, those two things are comparable :eyeroll:


You`re right. It was three of them!

Let me guess, they aren`t comparable because poor Tim was actually hit?




> Outsmarted as in nearly killed you mean?


As in luring someone in by telling them square that they were being lured in. Yes, outsmarting. The kind that makes you bait for the last guy to come running. 




> How is that unfair? Especially when the other guy went lethal on a hero.


I forgot, it`s never unfair when it comes to Tim. 




> He was a scumbag.


It`s not about you even wanting to be accurate when it comes to him, you just want him to fit exactly in the mold you want and that conversely makes someone else shine by contrast.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, I think at least REAL wil recall some debating about others knowing about Jason`s (real, eh) mother`s betrayal when he died. The general consensous was that apart from Sheila`s criptic words to Bruce, there was no way the others would know. But upon re-Reading some books since my vacations started, I believe at least Tomasi went there. 

During Damian`s confrontation with Jason at his home, he actually mentions what he felt by being bertrayed by his mother as part of his emotional mind game. I was actually surprised at not recalling this at the time. 

I hope Loedbell, Tomasi or someone else actually touches upon this. Not only it got character interaction potential, it`s that big Elephant in the room that is waiting to be finally adressed.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Another Newsarama interview  with Lobdell
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/30552-red-h...e-bizarro.html
> 
> I guess people who keep harping on Lobdell's choice of using Bizarro and Artemis can take this up with Geoff John now.  Leave Lobdell alone.


People would feel better about it if Johns was the one actually writing the comic...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Nah. Johns hasn't been the same after finishing his run on GL

----------


## Falseface

> Edit: and Tim thows smoke(?) bombs at him. 
> 
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...titans29_5.jpg
> https://arousinggrammardotcom.files....inredhood9.jpg
> 
> As for "beating" Jason, Tim`s in Nicieza`s run was the closest he got. TRJT outsmarted him big time in BFTC. 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


May I ask as to where I can see the scans without any ads to get in the way?

Edit: No, wait. Here's a better idea. You could, depending on what sort of computer/handheld device you have, copy and paste the image adress link, then type [img] before and [/img] after the link. Make sure there are no spaces.

----------


## G-Potion

*Dark*, there's already a RHATO playlist from the creators. Your turn now. Do one for us man.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

> Ed Boon
>  ‏@noobde
> The Joker was also a RED HOOD before Jason Todd took that name. So, which should we do in Injustice2 ?


This guy.... 

But I think it safe to say that our Red Hood is coming soon.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Just in case, drop Boon a line about wanting the one and only Jason Todd.

----------


## Rise

> This guy.... 
> 
> But I think it safe to say that our Red Hood is coming soon.


lol loved the fans reaction to this. 

*Jae ‏@JaeRoar
I DARE YOU TO PUT JOKER RED HOOD OVER JASON.... 

Máni ‏@CDMani
@noobde jason todd obviously. Stop playing games ed!*

Is he serious though? Or just messing with the fans?

----------


## REAL

Nah, he is just messing with the fans. I actually think that Jason is going to be announced soon.

----------


## Rise

Can't wait to see see Jason in the injustice 2 comic!

----------


## kaimaciel

Guys, Boon just added a poll to vote which Red Hood (Joker or Jason) we want.

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/763770917294055424

Spread the word and vote!

----------


## G-Potion

Very candid interview with Lobdell at Inverse.com

https://www.inverse.com/article/1930...ebirth-artemis




> Jason Todd, Lobdell told Inverse, wasnt brought up being told hed take over as Dark Knight. Bruce wasnt like, okay buddy, youre gonna grow up and be another Batman, so then he had this tragedy, and now hes Red Hood, Lobdell said. Artemis was raised in the Egyptian country of Amazons, and she was told, youre smart and youre pretty and one day youre going to lead us, but when her small fractions of the Amazons was integrated with the rest, she was just another really good warrior in a group of women raised to be the same thing. She always kind of saw herself as a Wonder Woman, and then she was told, Nah, no thanks, we already have one of those.
> 
> Lobdell laughed, drawing a comparison between Red Hood and Artemis to the third member of the Outlaw trifecta: Bizarro. At first, Bizarro doesnt have any awareness that hes not Superman. He really believes hes that guy, so its only as he starts to interact with other people that he actually sees Superman and then looks at his skin and he sees the horror in peoples eyes, he said. He thinks, Oh, if Im not this, then, who am I? What am I? Thats another side of the dark trinity, all of them looking in the mirror and not seeing the worlds greatest heroes.

----------


## Rise

*
Ed Boon – ‏@noobde

15,000 spoke,
With no reason why,
Looks like Red Hood Joker,
He's "No Man's Buy".* 

Jason wins (obviously) by a landslide!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

> Very candid interview with Lobdell at Inverse.com
> 
> https://www.inverse.com/article/1930...ebirth-artemis





> “Not only will there be friction before things settle, but there will be friction as the series goes. Jason thinks he’s the toughest guy on the block, trained by Batman himself, and Artemis sees him as a three-year-old who’s going to hurt himself with the weapon he’s holding. She believes she’s forgotten more than Jason could ever know about war or conflict. The art of war, that’s something Jason read in a book, but Artemis has been alive for a very, very long time.”


Artemis sees Jason as little kid....lol

I seriously can't wait to see the two interact!

----------


## REAL

Can't say I am suprised. 

I have to admit that I didn't vote tho. 




> ..Artemis sees him as a three-year-old who’s going to hurt himself with the weapon he’s holding.


Ok, this is hilarious. And I can't wait to see them interact either.

----------


## Rise

Shame on you, Jan!  :Mad: 

....me neither.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Artemis sees Jason as little kid....lol
> 
> I seriously can't wait to see the two interact!


I don't think that'll go over well with Jaybird. I can't wait to see how this interaction goes.

----------


## AJpyro

Every interview makes my patience break. I needs me some RHatO soon.

----------


## sifighter

Actually it's interesting when you think that Jason Todd is one of the few bat family members who hasn't shown up in either the prequel comic or game. Dick, Damian, Tim, Barbra, and Kate have all shown up in some capacity but no Jason. So either he's just stayed out of the way or he's finally coming back from the dead but instead of how he normally came back he's come back to a world where Superman murdered the joker and Batman fought against him for that only to be eventually put in jail by the end of the game. That might be an interesting change to things when it comes to Jason and Bruce.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Every interview makes my patience break. I needs me some RHatO soon.


Tell me about it. Its going to difficult waiting a month between issues though at least there are lots of other good titles out there that I can distract myself with.

----------


## REAL

Another great cover from Matteo Scalera. 



I just love it.

----------


## Alycat

Alright that is an amazing cover. Just all around fun.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Awesome cover.

I wouldn't mind if this iteration of the Outlaws take cues from that cover and is kind of a family. With Jason as the dad, Artemis as the mom and Bizarro as their child.

----------


## G-Potion

Man the stars are aligned right. Everyone on this team is on a roll.




> Awesome cover.
> 
> I wouldn't mind if this iteration of the Outlaws take cues from that cover and is kind of a family. With Jason as the dad, Artemis as the mom and Bizarro as their child.


Maybe it will go there after Artemis realizes treating Jason like a three-year-old just won't do.  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

That's a great cover. Looks like they are having some fun there. Honestly this is really the best book out of the ones starring former Robins.

----------


## Rise

Seriously an awesome cover and I totally love it!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...26291228852224

Pretty ambiguous but I'd say that is as close as Lobdell will come to confirm the All-Caste as still being canon.

----------


## Orujo-man

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...26291228852224
> 
> Pretty ambiguous but I'd say that is as close as Lobdell will come to confirm the All-Caste as still being canon.



I don't like so much the All-Caste magic stuff but I like Ducra, his own Yoda. I think her presence and advices in flashbacks along RHATO was used with the Outlaws as a catalyst for change in the personality of Jason.

I'm expect the All-Caste still being canon even if Jason don't use the All-Blades.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...26291228852224
> 
> Pretty ambiguous but I'd say that is as close as Lobdell will come to confirm the All-Caste as still being canon.



It's still canon. BELIEVE.

----------


## batnbreakfast

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0979432/...r/rm1199616768

michael pitt for Jason Todd!!

Not a fan of Mr. Todd here but watching Michael Pitt in Boardwalk Empire I had an epiphany. He's Jason. The core/broad strokes of the character is/are there and how he develops over the course of the show. Manymany parallels between Pitt's character and Batman's second Robin (a surrogate father son relationship as well). Now, thanks to that show and Michael Pitt I've started to like the Red Hood.

----------


## Rise

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...26291228852224
> 
> Pretty ambiguous but I'd say that is as close as Lobdell will come to confirm the All-Caste as still being canon.


Good news! I would love to see Durca and Essence again.  :Big Grin: 




> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0979432/...r/rm1199616768
> 
> michael pitt for Jason Todd!!
> 
> Not a fan of Mr. Todd here but watching Michael Pitt in Boardwalk Empire I had an epiphany. He's Jason. The core/broad strokes of the character is/are there and how he develops over the course of the show. Manymany parallels between Pitt's character and Batman's second Robin (a surrogate father son relationship as well). Now, thanks to that show and Michael Pitt I've started to like the Red Hood.


You made curious to watch his show. Is it good?

----------


## REAL

Oh yeah, I would like to see them again and that Saru guy too.

----------


## Rise

Oh Jan, are you feeling better today?

----------


## REAL

Yeah, much better. Thanks, Rise. 

Btw, I actually find a good site that do reviews of comics where they give a legit criticism without acting like a bunch of biased fanboys and they listed the same problem you have with 'Tec.

----------


## Rise

No problem, Jan. Glad to hear that you are feeling better.  :Big Grin: 

And seriously? Because Batman-news reviews seriously piss me off with their fanboying and I don't trust their opinions at all.

----------


## REAL

B-N is only good for news and it's better to stay away from their reviews. 

CB has really good reviewers who don't let their liking of a writer or character cloud their judgment. I mean, I liked the recent superman issue and that guy in CB give it 1/5 and I can't help but agree with him. They even made me want to pick up GA.

----------


## Rise

Say no more, just send me the link!  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Curious about this site you mentioned. In dire need of some fair reviews.

----------


## Aioros22

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...26291228852224
> 
> Pretty ambiguous but I'd say that is as close as Lobdell will come to confirm the All-Caste as still being canon.


One of his recent interviews (I`m thinking it was even you who post it here) absolutely gave me the confidence about Ducra and co not being erased. When he mentions that he never took anything away and has just been filling the bigger puzzle (like for example, just because you didn`t see a flasback about Jason stealing the tires in the reboot, it doesn`t mean it was retconned, only that it wasn`t a mosaic he needed to touch upon at the time), that is really all you need to know to relax about the character not suffering major cuts whatsoever. 

Rebirth is not a reboot for Jason but merely the sequel of the journey he`s been setting for himself. With this in mind all I need to do is just lay back and enjoy the book.

----------


## REAL

> Curious about this site you mentioned. In dire need of some fair reviews.


Just sent you the link. 

*Aioros22*: Glad to see you back.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Just sent you the link. 
> 
> *Aioros22*: Glad to see you back.


I'm curious about this site as well.

----------


## REAL

> I'm curious about this site as well.


And just sent it to you too.

----------


## G-Potion

> Just sent you the link. 
> 
> *Aioros22*: Glad to see you back.


Thanks! The RHATO#1 review wasn't my favourite but I have to check out their other articles now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And just sent it to you too.


Thanks! I'll have to check it out.

----------


## Aioros22

> Just sent you the link. 
> 
> *Aioros22*: Glad to see you back.


Thanks! Making a little stop on my vacations, my man. I`m going Namor on them waves  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I also would like a link to this site. Is always good to find new opinions.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0979432/...r/rm1199616768
> 
> michael pitt for Jason Todd!!
> 
> Not a fan of Mr. Todd here but watching Michael Pitt in Boardwalk Empire I had an epiphany. He's Jason. The core/broad strokes of the character is/are there and how he develops over the course of the show. Manymany parallels between Pitt's character and Batman's second Robin (a surrogate father son relationship as well). Now, thanks to that show and Michael Pitt I've started to like the Red Hood.


Oh no. He looks terrible for the part.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Oh no. He looks terrible for the part.


It's not about the looks, the character's core is there and the way Pitt carries himself over the course of the first 2 seasons

----------


## Rise

A colored variant cover for issue 2. :Smile:

----------


## JasonTodd428

Nice. I like the colors there.

----------


## Orujo-man

Symply I love It.

I have a question. In the Rebirth issue we can watch The Prince next to the Art of War book. Do you think that Jason will continue to the end with his promise to Bruce or otherwise break it, may have an approach to the ideal of Machiavelli "The end justifies the means" to protect Gotham?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Symply I love It.
> 
> I have a question. In the Rebirth issue we can watch The Prince next to the Art of War book. Do you think that Jason will continue to the end with his promise to Bruce or otherwise break it, may have an approach to the ideal of Machiavelli "The end justifies the means" to protect Gotham?


I think the set up here certainly has put him in a position where he's going to have to make a choice in the end. As much as he wants to do this "by the book" in order to prove to Bruce that he is trustworthy he may very well find himself in a position at some point in the where the only option is to kill in order to save someone else. It's quite the dilemma and ultimately its down to what's more important to him: Getting Bruce to trust him on the same level as say Nightwing or his own desire to protect the innocent by any means available to him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Scalera's variants are among the best ones DC is releasing right now.

----------


## AJpyro

> A colored variant cover for issue 2.


Hot dang that's beautiful.

----------


## G-Potion

That's freaking cool! Best variants RHATO is getting.





> Symply I love It.
> 
> I have a question. In the Rebirth issue we can watch The Prince next to the Art of War book. Do you think that Jason will continue to the end with his promise to Bruce or otherwise break it, may have an approach to the ideal of Machiavelli "The end justifies the means" to protect Gotham?


I think the thing about Jason that's unique among the Batfam is that he follows his own code of morality. It's a big part of his character and that grey morality allows much more storytelling potential so in that sense, him permanently conforming to Bruce's rule might do some damage to his character. In the mean time, the clash between the two methods will be built up to be the main struggle for Jason but ultimately I don't think he will end up seeing his way as wrong. Like you said, Art of War and The Prince were there. Going by Lobdell's interviews, they might as well be one of the easter eggs that needs to be revisited later. Also, the end of the Rebirth oneshot, I interpreted it as Jason wishing one day Bruce would see that he needs Jason the way Jason is, and it shows he still holds on to his own code.

----------


## The Whovian

> A colored variant cover for issue 2.


That's awesome!

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Interesting problem for Jason. A part of me thinks he's going to have to start finding a balance between his own desires and those of Bruce's. He can't be Bruce, the same way Dick can't. But both he and Bruce can meet on some common ground. What that is? I don't know. I thought back to Amanda Waller's comments to Death Shot about using rubber bullets, that could be a start for Jason at least. Showing that he's trying to play by Bruce's rules. Although didn't Bruce also study the Art of war? There's another common ground they can go on. 

Also that is an amazing cover. So much going on there in balance.

----------


## Alycat

All the art for this book has been amazing. The covers continue to get me hyped for the next issue where I hope they make me a fan of Artemis and Jason's dynamic.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

After seeing _A Most Violent Year_, I could see Elyes Gabel playing a pretty good Jason Todd.



Of course, this would mean a minority version of the character, but I think it'd be kinda appropriate, and it'd be nice to see that, prior to him losing hope in his city, that Batman actually saw potential in the ghetto trash of Gotham, rather than terrorized them. How much better to do that than to have Jason played by a minority.

Now, if they got a white guy to play him I wouldn't mind, it's that it'd bring a different flavor to the character. It didn't hurt Deadshot.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That's freaking cool! Best variants RHATO is getting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the thing about Jason that's unique among the Batfam is that he follows his own code of morality. It's a big part of his character and that grey morality allows much more storytelling potential so in that sense, him permanently conforming to Bruce's rule might do some damage to his character. In the mean time, the clash between the two methods will be built up to be the main struggle for Jason but ultimately I don't think he will end up seeing his way as wrong. Like you said, Art of War and The Prince were there. Going by Lobdell's interviews, they might as well be one of the easter eggs that needs to be revisited later. Also, the end of the Rebirth oneshot, I interpreted it as Jason wishing one day Bruce would see that he needs Jason the way Jason is, and it shows he still holds on to his own code.


Basically my take on the character as well.

----------


## Space Ghost

There seems to be a problem with the character in that DC wants to bring Red Hood into the fold with the rest of the bat family, but they don't know how to do it without compromising Jason's ambiguous moral code.  I don't mind seeing Jason toned down and reconciled with Batman, I just am not a fan of the way they're going about it.  They're making it seem (at least to me) like the only reason Jason will start moving away from his gray morality is because Batman says so.  I would MUCH rather see Jason try to fight crime in his own city, by his own rules, and slowly see why his way is less effective than Batman's.  A couple examples would be the police refusing to work with a murderous vigilante the way they work with Batman, and him not being able to inspire the people to combat crime from the ground up the way Batman does (or him inspiring people to run around with red masks on murdering whoever they think is a criminal).

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> There seems to be a problem with the character in that DC wants to bring Red Hood into the fold with the rest of the bat family, but they don't know how to do it without compromising Jason's ambiguous moral code.  I don't mind seeing Jason toned down and reconciled with Batman, I just am not a fan of the way they're going about it.  They're making it seem (at least to me) like the only reason Jason will start moving away from his gray morality is because Batman says so.  I would MUCH rather see Jason try to fight crime in his own city, by his own rules, and slowly see why his way is less effective than Batman's.  A couple examples would be the police refusing to work with a murderous vigilante the way they work with Batman, and him not being able to inspire the people to combat crime from the ground up the way Batman does (or him inspiring people to run around with red masks on murdering whoever they think is a criminal).


See, that's why I want to see Jason grouped with a younger, troubled sidekick. Like a Scarlet, or even a Cassandra. Someone, who like Jason, is someone whom the line blurs for; whether subconsciously, or consciously. As someone who can willingly cross back, and forth, across the line that even Bruce can't walk, I feel he would be more understanding, and more patient. Not to mention he'd finally be put in Batman's shoes, and get the kind of struggle Bruce goes through; he didn't spend much time with his parents, or other family, and he's emotionally closed off, and thus doesn't quite understand how to be someone's family.

Also, for me, it's not about Jason finding out that his way is wrong, but learning to accept himself, and his darkness, and doing the same for another person; not trying to be Batman, to get Batman to accept him. I want to see the day Jason isn't burdened with needing to "fit in", and can finally take that Bat off his chest. Besides The Price, and the Art of War, a big take away should be Jason saying that he can be what Bruce can't be.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> See, that's why I want to see Jason grouped with a younger, troubled sidekick. Like a Scarlet, or even a Cassandra. Someone, who like Jason, is someone whom the line blurs for; whether subconsciously, or consciously. As someone who can willingly cross back, and forth, across the line that even Bruce can't walk, I feel he would be more understanding, and more patient. Not to mention he'd finally be put in Batman's shoes, and get the kind of struggle Bruce goes through; he didn't spend much time with his parents, or other family, and he's emotionally closed off, and thus doesn't quite understand how to be someone's family.


That was the whole point of the Joker's Daughter arc.





> Also, for me, it's not about Jason finding out that his way is wrong, but learning to accept himself, and his darkness, and doing the same for another person; not trying to be Batman, to get Batman to accept him. I want to see the day Jason isn't burdened with needing to "fit in", and can finally take that Bat off his chest. Besides The Price, and the Art of War, a big take away should be Jason saying that he can be what Bruce can't be.


Jason is wearing the bat not because he wants to fit in but because he has come to terms with where he comes from.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That was the whole point of the Joker's Daughter arc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jason is wearing the bat not because he wants to fit in but because he has come to terms with where he comes from.



1) Yeah, he wasn't successful because he got to her too late, and she was too crazy from the jump. There's little to no similarities between Jason and Duela. Someone like a Scarlet, or a Cass, would've been more his speed. 

2) That's not a reason why he should always wear it. Especially while infiltrating the Gotham underworld, as if it's not known that he works with Batman, and his crew, from time, to time. My thing is that him wearing the Bat looks like an afterthought, and like something he clings to, despite clearly not feeling at home within the Bat Family, still. It'd be stupid to say that he's not gotten more comfortable with them, and that he doesn't care for them, but they still don't take him as he is; he's always gotta conform. At some point he just needs to cut ties with Gotham, and start anew in another city. In terms of the current story...it makes no sense for him to still wear that on his chest, on his current mission.

----------


## Alycat

> After seeing _A Most Violent Year_, I could see Elyes Gabel playing a pretty good Jason Todd.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, this would mean a minority version of the character, but I think it'd be kinda appropriate, and it'd be nice to see that, prior to him losing hope in his city, that Batman actually saw potential in the ghetto trash of Gotham, rather than terrorized them. How much better to do that than to have Jason played by a minority.
> 
> Now, if they got a white guy to play him I wouldn't mind, it's that it'd bring a different flavor to the character. It didn't hurt Deadshot.


Nah I gotta diasagree with you there. If anything I would find it pretty inappropriate and annoying that the minority is the kid from the streets, the one with problems. It's a flavor I don't want with anymore minority characters. Just one of the reasons I can't agree with those jason Todd Latino fanons. Also would kinda undermine that interesting angle of Of Batman maybe wanting another version of Dick.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason don't need no steenkin' Bat-family.  He just needs plenty of ass to kick.

----------


## Orujo-man

Thanks for the answers. I agree with the most of your points of view. I think, like you said, Jason at last will follow his own ideals and maybe don't break totally with the Batfamily but gain their disappointment again. As much as I like the idea of having Jason in the Batfamily, I think it would be a mistake and a waste of potential. In fact, I think it's something that must be done to continue the growth of the character.

At first we saw in UTH Jason trying to impose his views on crime and their true motivations were the disappointment and anger with Bruce. Then he became more psychotic (I must say, I don't like this Jason). In RHATO we saw him more relaxed and trying to find their own place in the world alongside Roy and Starfire. Still having problems with Bruce but more than disappointment or anger is a mixture of rebellion and guilt for his past actions. Also receives some acceptance of Bruce, something he has always wanted. 

And in the end we have RH/A. JD is important, but the focus is Roy. For Jason, Roy represents his own advancement, not only his best friend. Throughout the series, Jason is guided by Roy all the time. Jason clings to it because it's the only positive thing he knows. And it is at the end of the series when the change happens. Jason feels guilty about his abduction and sees himself as a toxic person, then he leaves.

Here's where it starts Rebirth. His failure with Roy takes Jason back to the only thing he knows, to seek refuge again in his father figure and the approval of Bruce. I think from here Jason must move ahead and stop having the shadow of Bruce in his life. This requires that after dealing with internal conflicts Jason makes the decision to pursue their own ideals and its own struggle against crime. Unlike UTH, this decision would be made not by resentment or disappointment to Bruce. It would be for their own ideals and self-acceptance.

Also keep in mind Artemis and Bizarro here. I don't know anything about Bizarro but Artemis seems to be an old-school warrior and I doubt that she cares if cuts some heads. That's my impression, mostly for her weapons.

I sincerely believe that this course would be good for the character and clearly reflects the maturation of Jason himself and his final transition from teenager to adult.

Or at least it is my vision of the character and how I would like to be managed.

----------


## Rise

That was seriously a very good analysis, Orujo-man. And I really enjoyed reading it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

http://nyobetabeat.files.wordpress.c...action-gif.gif

All this delicious conversation about Jason`s complex character. I may not agree with precisely one point or another but the general tone is something I go with. Particularly to the ending of RHAA and the moving forward. The journey for Jason consistant growth comes to not only acceptance in himself but how others may perceive him. And that`s an incredibly mature journey to make. 

It started with Jason claiming that he was over Batman and Gotham in a more superficial (let`s call it, physical sense) but now the layers dig deeper, almost metatextually. This is why despite the last Eternal having been lackluster, his issue in beating the mind control is preeecious. The storytelling trick of going inside someone`s head won`t pay off as well with others as it does with Jay. This is merely one reason why he may be a harder character to deal with, but is so much richer for it. 

I maintain it`s not about him not meeting with the others but meeting with the others more on his terms instead of other`s expectations. They didn`t live his life after all so the end game should only be a sure Jason Todd. On the other hand, let him keep learning and look at things the other way as well, since after all, that shortly brief psycho who was wearing the same name is in the garbage can where it belongs.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah I gotta diasagree with you there. If anything I would find it pretty inappropriate and annoying that the minority is the kid from the streets, the one with problems. It's a flavor I don't want with anymore minority characters. Just one of the reasons I can't agree with those jason Todd Latino fanons. Also would kinda undermine that interesting angle of Of Batman maybe wanting another version of Dick.


I don`t think that would matter much these days as it would a decade ago. You can also always point that the reason this kid got troubles is because whatever finances his family had was burnt out from paying his mother`s medical bills and he stopped going to school to get money for whatever means and so. 

I can see your pov, that being said and it`s no easy concern for a studio to just shrug off but I do like the imagery of the actor as Jason. He looks standard "dark hair Robin" enough and he`s a good actor to boot. I don`t mind him much being one foot outside that standard while having another in.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Nah I gotta diasagree with you there. If anything I would find it pretty inappropriate and annoying that the minority is the kid from the streets, the one with problems. It's a flavor I don't want with anymore minority characters. Just one of the reasons I can't agree with those jason Todd Latino fanons. Also would kinda undermine that interesting angle of Of Batman maybe wanting another version of Dick.


I honestly don't think that matters anymore. If anything, it would come across as more relatable, and more realistic, especially seeing how most of the people Clark interviewed seemed to be minorities. Pushing minorities towards the worst, and most crime riddled, parts of a city happens, and using Jason to bring such trials to life, and to give a voice to those of such predicaments, would make him more than just another comic book character brought to life, and would be very appropriate, as his and Batman's conflict would mirror whats going on now (no I'm not part of BLM, nor am I an SJW, despite being black). 

Also, if you introduce Duke later, rather than Tim, then he wouldn't be the only minority Robin, as well as the only one that went "bad".

Also, as Aioros22 said, he's a good actor, and can pass a version of Jason easily.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Thanks for the answers. I agree with the most of your points of view. I think, like you said, Jason at last will follow his own ideals and maybe don't break totally with the Batfamily but gain their disappointment again. As much as I like the idea of having Jason in the Batfamily, I think it would be a mistake and a waste of potential. In fact, I think it's something that must be done to continue the growth of the character.
> 
> At first we saw in UTH Jason trying to impose his views on crime and their true motivations were the disappointment and anger with Bruce. Then he became more psychotic (I must say, I don't like this Jason). In RHATO we saw him more relaxed and trying to find their own place in the world alongside Roy and Starfire. Still having problems with Bruce but more than disappointment or anger is a mixture of rebellion and guilt for his past actions. Also receives some acceptance of Bruce, something he has always wanted. 
> 
> And in the end we have RH/A. JD is important, but the focus is Roy. For Jason, Roy represents his own advancement, not only his best friend. Throughout the series, Jason is guided by Roy all the time. Jason clings to it because it's the only positive thing he knows. And it is at the end of the series when the change happens. Jason feels guilty about his abduction and sees himself as a toxic person, then he leaves.
> 
> Here's where it starts Rebirth. His failure with Roy takes Jason back to the only thing he knows, to seek refuge again in his father figure and the approval of Bruce. I think from here Jason must move ahead and stop having the shadow of Bruce in his life. This requires that after dealing with internal conflicts Jason makes the decision to pursue their own ideals and its own struggle against crime. Unlike UTH, this decision would be made not by resentment or disappointment to Bruce. It would be for their own ideals and self-acceptance.
> 
> Also keep in mind Artemis and Bizarro here. I don't know anything about Bizarro but Artemis seems to be an old-school warrior and I doubt that she cares if cuts some heads. That's my impression, mostly for her weapons.
> ...


I never looked at it that way, but this makes me appreciate the first RHatO run and RH/A somewhat more than I did before. 

Hopefully, once he reaches his potential as a person, is when he'll get his sidekick.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> It's not about the looks, the character's core is there and the way Pitt carries himself over the course of the first 2 seasons


Okay, but get someone who can do that, who also looks the part.

----------


## Orujo-man

> That was seriously a very good analysis, Orujo-man. And I really enjoyed reading it.


Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I maintain it`s not about him not meeting with the others but meeting with the others more on his terms instead of other`s expectations. They didn`t live his life after all so the end game should only be a sure Jason Todd. On the other hand, let him keep learning and look at things the other way as well, since after all, that shortly brief psycho who was wearing the same name is in the garbage can where it belongs.


I really like this paragraph especially, I agree with you. If we look back we can see clearly that since he started as Robin most other people with whom he associated did not have an objective view of it. Jason had to achieve very high standards left by Dick. But Jason is not Dick.

In my opinion, this is the cause of huge inferiority complex that has Jason and always tries to mask it with arrogance and now with the search of acceptance of Bruce. Just as the resentment he feels for Dick. It's a curious contradiction that while seeking acceptance at the same time is toxic for him because he never receive acceptance until not accept himself. If he follows the wishes of Bruce in the end he will have internal conflicts again because he simply doesn't have the same ideals. Sooner or later he will explode and the cycle will begin again. I think Jason need to meet new people. 

As for the others, if you mean the Batmily I see it difficult. Perhaps Tim, is more open minded than the rest. Or even Dick but I don't know. I think apart from Jason, also it depends on the evolution of the others. It's very interesting, I'll keep thinking about it.

As I said before, I hate psychotic version in which he became after UTH series and hopefully never again take that path. Even if Lodbell makes some mistakes, it would be a real shame to stay stuck in that cliche again rather than keep evolving.

----------


## G-Potion

> Thanks for the answers. I agree with the most of your points of view. I think, like you said, Jason at last will follow his own ideals and maybe don't break totally with the Batfamily but gain their disappointment again. As much as I like the idea of having Jason in the Batfamily, I think it would be a mistake and a waste of potential. In fact, I think it's something that must be done to continue the growth of the character.
> 
> At first we saw in UTH Jason trying to impose his views on crime and their true motivations were the disappointment and anger with Bruce. Then he became more psychotic (I must say, I don't like this Jason). In RHATO we saw him more relaxed and trying to find their own place in the world alongside Roy and Starfire. Still having problems with Bruce but more than disappointment or anger is a mixture of rebellion and guilt for his past actions. Also receives some acceptance of Bruce, something he has always wanted. 
> 
> And in the end we have RH/A. JD is important, but the focus is Roy. For Jason, Roy represents his own advancement, not only his best friend. Throughout the series, Jason is guided by Roy all the time. Jason clings to it because it's the only positive thing he knows. And it is at the end of the series when the change happens. Jason feels guilty about his abduction and sees himself as a toxic person, then he leaves.
> 
> Here's where it starts Rebirth. His failure with Roy takes Jason back to the only thing he knows, to seek refuge again in his father figure and the approval of Bruce. I think from here Jason must move ahead and stop having the shadow of Bruce in his life. This requires that after dealing with internal conflicts Jason makes the decision to pursue their own ideals and its own struggle against crime. Unlike UTH, this decision would be made not by resentment or disappointment to Bruce. It would be for their own ideals and self-acceptance.
> 
> Also keep in mind Artemis and Bizarro here. I don't know anything about Bizarro but Artemis seems to be an old-school warrior and I doubt that she cares if cuts some heads. That's my impression, mostly for her weapons.
> ...



Like what you wrote here. Succinctly described the personal journey Jason has gone through. You can see that even in his most disliked "psychotic" phase, it still makes sense and is somewhat a natural progression, especially if one counts the event from Countdown where the death of Batman totally broke him. Likewise, in R/A, Jason was broken again by Joker's Daughter as his wish to redeem someone he thought similar to him totally blew up in his face, convincing him of his own hopelessness. I hope RHATO Rebirth would reveal more on his state of mind after the event of R/A, that he's not as okay as he seems.

----------


## batnbreakfast

> Okay, but get someone who can do that, who also looks the part.


Pitt plays a young war vet, out to prove himself, thirsty for revenge, there's a estranged father/son/surrogate father relationship and a really twisted mother... why would you care if the actor has blond or black hair? Jason's look changes all the time with different artists anyway.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #4
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“DARK TRINITY” part four! The unimaginable has happened—Black Mask has gained control of one of the most powerful beings in the world: Bizarro! Can the Red Hood stop him before Black Mask’s reign of terror begins?
On sale NOVEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

----------


## JasonTodd428

Looks great and thus the final member of the Dark Trinity makes his appearance. Now some reviewers can stop nitpicking about Artemis and Bizzaro not having been in the book yet even though they've been on covers. I'm tired of hearing that particular nitpick.

----------


## Orujo-man

I like it. Bizarro's face, far from being intimidating makes me laugh. I can't wait to see how the three interact with each other.

----------


## Aioros22

His face actually gives me shades of Hyde from Moore`s The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I like it, it`s cartoony and it works.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I honestly don't think that matters anymore. If anything, it would come across as more relatable, and more realistic, especially seeing how most of the people Clark interviewed seemed to be minorities. Pushing minorities towards the worst, and most crime riddled, parts of a city happens, and using Jason to bring such trials to life, and to give a voice to those of such predicaments, would make him more than just another comic book character brought to life, and would be very appropriate, as his and Batman's conflict would mirror whats going on now (no I'm not part of BLM, nor am I an SJW, despite being black). 
> 
> Also, if you introduce Duke later, rather than Tim, then he wouldn't be the only minority Robin, as well as the only one that went "bad".
> 
> Also, as Aioros22 said, he's a good actor, and can pass a version of Jason easily.


There are poor white people, so it isn't unrealistic for Jason to be a poor white kid.

I prefer him to stay the way he is. It would be interesting to see Jason help a young person, who could be a minority, crawl from the bottom to being a sidekick, or something else on his own.

----------


## oasis1313

> There are poor white people, so it isn't unrealistic for Jason to be a poor white kid.
> 
> I prefer him to stay the way he is. It would be interesting to see Jason help a young person, who could be a minority, crawl from the bottom to being a sidekick, or something else on his own.


Bring back Scarlet !!!!!!!!!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Bring back Scarlet !!!!!!!!!


I don't know about that haha! I wasn't a huge fan of her, but it would be neat if she came back as a villain going after Gotham, and no one knew who she was. Have Jason know and go to take her down.

----------


## Lhynn

So the other day i wsa thinking about batman beyond, and it ocurred to me that it isnt really Tim Drake being written there. Then i thought that Jason would fit in perfectly.

From the start, owning a bar, how he tackles issues. His problems with bruce, etc. 
Was wondering if this is just me or if theres a theory or something confirmed about this.

----------


## Alycat

No pretty sure the writers confirmed a long time ago that they just mashed up Tim and Jason into one character. I forgot if it was to save time or because they thought A Death in the family would be too violent. Which is hilarious because the stuff that happened to Tim  in Beyond was terrifying for me as a kid. Then Rocksteady went full circle and based some of  Arkham knight off of Beyond.

----------


## Lhynn

No, i meant the current batman beyond. The one that originates with futures end.

----------


## Alycat

> No, i meant the current batman beyond. The one that originates with futures end.


Everyone's hatred of the current Batman beyond put me off bothering with it but everything you're saying actually sounds pretty interesting, even if it does sound like another case of Not Jason and no Terry.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So the other day i wsa thinking about batman beyond, and it ocurred to me that it isnt really Tim Drake being written there. Then i thought that Jason would fit in perfectly.
> 
> From the start, owning a bar, how he tackles issues. His problems with bruce, etc. 
> Was wondering if this is just me or if theres a theory or something confirmed about this.


I'm actually glad Jason had nothing to do with the book calling itself Batman Beyond or Future's End. Neither one of them have done Tim Drake much good IMHO.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't know about that haha! I wasn't a huge fan of her, but it would be neat if she came back as a villain going after Gotham, and no one knew who she was. Have Jason know and go to take her down.


I liked it that Jason had pity on Scarlet and treated her almost like his own daughter.  It was a side of Jason that hasn't been seen before or since.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I liked it that Jason had pity on Scarlet and treated her almost like his own daughter.  It was a side of Jason that hasn't been seen before or since.


I really liked that about it as well. I also like how she seemed to keep him a bit more grounded and stable.

----------


## oasis1313

> I really liked that about it as well. I also like how she seemed to keep him a bit more grounded and stable.


Exactly.  He was trying to help her the way Batman helped him--but BETTER since he didn't let her be killed.

----------


## Rise

http://batman-news.com/2016/08/23/wh...ylor-esposito/

Here a nice interview with Red Hood's letterer Taylor Esposito.  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> So the other day i wsa thinking about batman beyond, and it ocurred to me that it isnt really Tim Drake being written there. Then i thought that Jason would fit in perfectly.
> 
> From the start, owning a bar, how he tackles issues. His problems with bruce, etc. 
> Was wondering if this is just me or if theres a theory or something confirmed about this.


If you could set a list of characteristics of this Tim, what would they precisely be? I haven`t followed the post FE`s Batman Beyond. 

On the same note, how did Terry came back to regain the mantle and what happened to Tim?

----------


## SpentShrimp

I wasn't the biggest fan of Scarlet. Mostly because of Morrison's take on Jason.

----------


## Rise

Tbh, Scarlert was the only good thing we got from Morrison's take on Jason.

----------


## REAL

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #4
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
> Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “DARK TRINITY” part four! The unimaginable has happened—Black Mask has gained control of one of the most powerful beings in the world: Bizarro! Can the Red Hood stop him before Black Mask’s reign of terror begins?
> On sale NOVEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


Man, Roman's face seriously made me laugh hard. 

It's seems that the "DARK TRINITY" arc will finish in December and we will have a new arc in 2017. Neat.

----------


## REAL

> http://batman-news.com/2016/08/23/wh...ylor-esposito/
> 
> Here a nice interview with Red Hood's letterer Taylor Esposito.


Thanks, Rise. I have to admit that I hardly pay attention to the letterers, but this made me appreciate them more.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I didn't find her very compelling. Jason having a sidekick doesn't appeal to me. I prefer him to have a partner(s).

----------


## Aahz

> I didn't find her very compelling. Jason having a sidekick doesn't appeal to me. I prefer him to have a partner(s).


I think that it is also wired that he takes kid side kicks, after what has happened to him. That seem to me as ooc as him beeing the only one in Robin War how was pro Robin movement.

----------


## adrikito

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #4
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
> Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “DARK TRINITY” part four! The unimaginable has happened—Black Mask has gained control of one of the most powerful beings in the world: Bizarro! Can the Red Hood stop him before Black Mask’s reign of terror begins?
> On sale NOVEMBER 9 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T


The axe of artemis, change his size? I continued seeing the new mask of Sionis.. I want to see more pictures and see this comic progress ..

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I think that it is also wired that he takes kid side kicks, after what has happened to him. That seem to me as ooc as him beeing the only one in Robin War how was pro Robin movement.


His role in Robin War was just as bad. The whole conversation about him helping could have been two panels. Him being asked to help, and him telling them no.

----------


## Alycat

> I think that it is also wired that he takes kid side kicks, after what has happened to him. That seem to me as ooc as him beeing the only one in Robin War how was pro Robin movement.


Ehh not really. Dying should not be a surprise considering their line of work. Being Robin and getting out there and helping people meant a lot to Jason coming from his situation so it's no surprise that he of all people understood those kids.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Ehh not really. Dying should not be a surprise considering their line of work. Being Robin and getting out there and helping people meant a lot to Jason coming from his situation so it's no surprise that he of all people understood those kids.


But is in direct conflict with the way he has been handled on his own series or in his appearances on the Superman books. The vigilante lifestyle is not a life Jason actively wishes for someon else and in fact, he'd rather try to stop civilians fom getting involved _at all_.

Robin War in general is the perfect example of a writer pushing his own ideas into the characters without giving a damn for consistency or proper characterization.

----------


## Orujo-man

I don't like the idea that Jason has a sidekick but ... how about an apprentice?. I don't know, one of the Robins wannabe or homeless kid. He would be in the land of All-Caste with Essence. Thus one could explore Jason in his role as mentor and could extend everything related to the All-Caste, Essence and Ducra. All this if the All-Caste stuff is still canon, of course.

It could also help define more to Jason through new interactions flashback or even improve their feats a bit. Nothing over the top. And the best part is that when the brat not be necessary remains in limbo with Essence and fixed.

It's just an idea, what do you think?

----------


## Aioros22

Jason with Scarlet and Jason in Robin War can totally coexist without comprosing any of his values because the two situations aren`t alike. 

Robin War can be made a case of being occ for Jason but I don`t consider Scarlet occ one bit. There`s nothing remarkably impossible in meeting that one person that can make you believe that the alternative of not being with you ends up being worse. He tried something similar with JD, even if by somewhat a different strategy and means. 

Scarlet was basically a character that Jason cared about. He was protective of her in a true sense and therefore whether he would not want the lifestyle of a vigilante on someone, mainly a kid (and he end up giving her the chance of a normal life anyhow) I think it`s with someone like her that Jason would think of being more proactive in order to stop that more chilling alternative. 

Storytelling wise it got potential for obvious reasons, but in order to pay off it has to be with a character with especific characteristics and not a a bunch of no name kids just because.

----------


## Aahz

> Ehh not really. Dying should not be a surprise considering their line of work. Being Robin and getting out there and helping people meant a lot to Jason coming from his situation so it's no surprise that he of all people understood those kids.


When he attacked Tim in Titans Tower and later kidnapped Mia he seemed kind of against the concept.

So him being the only one how supports it while all the other are against it seems odd for me. And his later statement that you have to be trained by Bruce to be a Robin seems even less fitting, considering that in his opinion Bruce methods don't work.

----------


## Aioros22

> Tbh, Scarlert was the only good thing we got from Morrison's take on Jason.


It was interesting as Meta study but it`s not something that would ever last outside said laboratory. His next take on Jason is more inside the normality. 

Still I enjoyed the Scarlet bits, particularly the end when Jason protects her from Flamingo.

----------


## Orujo-man

So the big question is how do we fit Scarlet in the Outlaws without affecting the status quo of the group? Or is it better to wait for Jason are not with the Outlaws to bring her back?

----------


## Alycat

> When he attacked Tim in Titans Tower and later kidnapped Mia he seemed kind of against the concept.
> 
> So him being the only one how supports it while all the other are against it seems odd for me. And his later statement that you have to be trained by Bruce to be a Robin seems even less fitting, considering that in his opinion Bruce methods don't work.


I consider nu52 Jason and the pre flashpoint one to be almost different characters honestly and clearly he doesn't truly believe Bruce's way doesn't work if he's so willing to follow those rules now or team up with the family ever. Robin war was dumb but I still don't think Jason's reaction is ooc.

----------


## Aioros22

> I consider nu52 Jason and the pre flashpoint one to be almost different characters honestly and clearly he doesn't truly believe Bruce's way doesn't work if he's so willing to follow those rules now or team up with the family ever. Robin war was dumb but I still don't think Jason's reaction is ooc.


They aren`t (unless you count a certain Nigthwing run or something even more bizarre called Battle for the Cereals, but thankfully, nobody seems to). "Under The Red Hood" works perfectly as the _introduction_ book of a return. An especific window of time where the character is supposed to be conflicted by a certain myrad of intimate battles that sets him directly in the antagonist role. 

If you read UTRH and even some other stories afterwards and then RATHO (which is the timeline editorial is mostly using since his return), there is a clear transition between Jason being less in the moment, than he was right after having to deal with too fresh a new reality. One that went on without him. If you look at Jason`s main sucessefull stories since UTRH up to now, that was merely the first of a series and so on. Him working with the family isn`t an issue. It`s how you do it that counts.

Btw, Jason attacking Tim in the Tower doesn`t conflit necessarily anything. It`s within the window of time where he`s conflited with turmoil.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Honestly I've never thought of them as two separate characters myself. I likewise believe that you can draw a connection between UtRH, the Pre-FP Red Hood stories and the N52/DC You/Rebirth ones. Because a Lazarus Pit was involved in restoring his mental facilities I postulate that up until the reboot Jason might have been being...I guess the word I want is influenced (or perhaps effected is a better choice) by the darkness of the Pit. I suspect it may have been amping up his darker impulses. That might account for how psycho he was during that time and also why he has seemingly mellowed out a bit now. I sort of wish the writers back then had delved into his mental state at the time a bit. It might have been an interesting read.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t describe it especifically as darkness of the Pit, even if it makes sense for a writer to use if he wants to since he had appearant brain damage to heal. Being conflicted in a shock of realities is enough for me. The real psycho is something I atribute mostly to Battle For The Cereals because not only is OOC, it`s actually spelt out that he is indeeded, _bananas_. 

Cool action figure aside, may we never stop living without it.

And how come only now I see around the web fanart of people shipping Red X and Starfire of TTGO? I don`t recall this trend starting when RATHO began.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I don`t describe it especifically as darkness of the Pit, even if it makes sense for a writer to use if he wants to since he had appearant brain damage to heal. Being conflicted in a shock of realities is enough for me. The real psycho is something I atribute mostly to Battle For The Cereals because not only is OOC, it`s actually spelt out that he is indeeded, _bananas_. 
> 
> Cool action figure aside, may we never stop living without it.
> 
> And how come only now I see around the web fanart of people shipping Red X and Starfire of TTGO? I don`t recall this trend starting when RATHO began.


Blame it some what on some stuff going on there. Or it comes back to as Starfire should be with a bad boy and or something I don't know. Personally I can't really see Jason and Kori. I don't know why.

----------


## Aioros22

I just realized that in TTGO! Red X is still Dick, whereas in the previous show it end up being a freelancer rumored to be Jason. Coincidenly I think Jason may have already shown up in Go! (not sure if actually named) as part of Team RobinTM.

----------


## Alycat

> I just realized that in TTGO! Red X is still Dick, whereas in the previous show it end up being a freelancer rumored to be Jason. Coincidenly I think Jason may have already shown up in Go! (not sure if actually named) as part of Team RobinTM.


Yeah he showed up as a jar of ashes. Pretty sure there were actually 2 Dicks (lol) in Team Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

Next to the crowbar yeah, but that`s just a visual gag. TeamRobinTM like everything in the show is comedy but I wouldn`t think they would put two Dicks....on the same team. 

basically
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...3o2_r1_500.gif

----------


## Orujo-man

For terrible shipping invasion prepare for Jason x Artemis...and Jason x Bizarro. Tumblr users don't have mercy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I wouldn't mind JasonxArtemis to be honest. 

Also, according to Buccelato Jason did a stealth debut in the most recent issue of Injustice

https://twitter.com/BrianBooch/statu...07143713452032

----------


## Alycat

> Next to the crowbar yeah, but that`s just a visual gag. TeamRobinTM like everything in the show is comedy but I wouldn`t think they would put two Dicks....on the same team. 
> 
> basically
> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...3o2_r1_500.gif


I had thought it was the Silver age version of Dick or at the very least it wasn't Jason. Like it was super obvious who the rest were, but strange they would be so ambiguous on who Jason was.




> I wouldn't mind JasonxArtemis to be honest. 
> 
> Also, according to Buccelato Jason did a stealth debut in the most recent issue of Injustice
> 
> https://twitter.com/BrianBooch/statu...07143713452032


A lot of people seem to want Artemis to be a lesbian and no relationship drama. But if written well, then I could totally accept Jason x Artemis.

Also glad you posted that. I was so unsure when reading that issue. Good to see that Jason exists in the good universe of Injustice. I assume he's dead in the actual Injustice universe.

----------


## AJpyro

Meh, I'm good to go for well written romance. Though I would feel better for the team not dating within the team, at least for now.

I need at least 1.5 to 2 years of stories before anything else.

And if I can brave the crazy of shippers of my other fandoms, I can handle this...as long as I just look at good pictures on tumblr. Anything else is superfluous.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Artemis and Jason could work if written right, although right now she seems a bit distracted by her duty and her calling him little boy seems to indicate that she feels above him at the moment. Yeah agreeing with AJpryo, give it some time, let the character's naturally jell and then we'll see if they work as a couple. Although it could be nice to see him with a non super too. So long as we don't have a catwoman/batman dynamic with him ala Taila I'll be just fine. Actually an older Cassandra Cain could be interesting with Jason if written well too.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I agree Atemis and Jason could work if handled well. I'd really like it though if Lobdell gave it some time to develop instead of just throwing them together haphazardly. I just don't think it would work right at the moment. Right now she sees him as being beneath her and Jason is Jason. I think he'll be taking exception to being called a "little boy" by her. Honestly, I'm looking forward to seeing what the next issue brings.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I agree Atemis and Jason could work if handled well. I'd really like it though if Lobdell gave it some time to develop instead of just throwing them together haphazardly. I just don't think it would work right at the moment. Right now she sees him as being beneath her and Jason is Jason. I think he'll be taking exception to being called a "little boy" by her. Honestly, I'm looking forward to seeing what the next issue brings.


Same here, what I'm a bit worried about is a Joseph and Rogue retread from Lobdell's X-men run, where in Artemis plays Joseph in this case and Jason is Rogue. I would say give it a few issues at least to have them working things out and, yes, Jason's not going to take to being called "Little boy" at all. By the way how old is he now? Dick's what 24? 25? and Tim's 16 with Damian going on 13 I think, so where does that put Jason? 20? 21? or is he younger?

----------


## Orujo-man

I don't see Jason x Artemis but if they are well written I don't have a problem with that. It can even be fun, it would be an odd couple.




> Same here, what I'm a bit worried about is a Joseph and Rogue retread from Lobdell's X-men run, where in Artemis plays Joseph in this case and Jason is Rogue. I would say give it a few issues at least to have them working things out and, yes, Jason's not going to take to being called "Little boy" at all. By the way how old is he now? Dick's what 24? 25? and Tim's 16 with Damian going on 13 I think, so where does that put Jason? 20? 21? or is he younger?


If she call him "Little Boy" I don't see the problem. It's pretty normal in couples like "Bear", "Big Guy", "Tiger" even "Idiot" or "Foolish". Always with love.

I think is not for Jason's age. Only Artemis is too old. Or at least Lodbell said that.

----------


## REAL

Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 cover.

Seriously can't wait to see Artemis.

----------


## Aioros22

> I had thought it was the Silver age version of Dick or at the very least it wasn't Jason. Like it was super obvious who the rest were, but strange they would be so ambiguous on who Jason was.


I just assume it`s the moody one with the red garb.




> I wouldn't mind JasonxArtemis to be honest. 
> 
> Also, according to Buccelato Jason did a stealth debut in the most recent issue of Injustice
> 
> https://twitter.com/BrianBooch/statu...07143713452032


Making snowballs out of Alfred`s food (oh, Dick too?), have the boys no shame? The sacrilege!

----------


## Alycat

> I just assume it`s the moody one with the red garb.
> 
> 
> 
> Making snowballs out of Alfred`s food (oh, Dick too?), have the boys no shame? The sacrilege!


Nah that was totally Tim.

Love the cover. So excited to see Artemis and Jason interactions.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 cover.
> 
> Seriously can't wait to see Artemis.


Excellent. I'm curious as Jason convinces her to join him. And how strong she is.

----------


## Alycat

> Excellent. I'm curious as Jason convinces her to join him. And how strong she is.


Wasn't Artemis Wonder Woman at one point? Hope she still has all her skills and power.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Wasn't Artemis Wonder Woman at one point? Hope she still has all her skills and power.


I think when Artemis was WW, she gains her powers with blessed objects and the gods. And I don't know if in this continuity she was WW before.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah that was totally Tim.
> 
> Love the cover. So excited to see Artemis and Jason interactions.


Nah, doesn`t come across Tim to me one bit, unless he was named as such and I missed it. 

TAS Tim is pretty much Jason and animated Jay is usually associated with the red garb as well. so it might be a mix. Tim`s a geek/fanboy, not moody/cool.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 cover.
> 
> Seriously can't wait to see Artemis.


Nice! I like this cover

----------


## Aioros22

> Wasn't Artemis Wonder Woman at one point? Hope she still has all her skills and power.


In the 90`s yeah. Same era where Batman and Superman had replacements as well. She had similar stats but not some powers of her own like flight. Those she got from gear, like the sandals of Hermes.

----------


## Alycat

> Nah, doesn`t come across Tim to me one bit, unless he was named as such and I missed it. 
> 
> TAS Tim is pretty much Jason and animated Jay is usually associated with the red garb as well. so it might be a mix. Tim`s a geek/fanboy, not moody/cool.


Yeah it was def. the outfit for my reasoning and they really made Tim sort of dour and a little moody after Identity Crises.

Thanks for the info on Artemis guys. Pretty interesting.

----------


## AJpyro

> Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 cover.
> 
> Seriously can't wait to see Artemis.


Jason. Prepare for the roughest noogie ever.

Also shouldn't that be Auntie?

----------


## RedQueen

I'm glad that they're keeping Artemis with a very very long ponytail. Out of everyone she was the only person to ever maintain their 90's rapunzel ponytail. 

If Jason does get with Artemis I'd rather it be friends with benefits type thing at first because I don't think Jason and Artemis are the romantic types but would maybe want to deal with their attraction in a way that doesn't complicate things. But if they do get romantic and it's good writing then I don't mind.  

I wonder if she's even met Diana. if they said she lives in Egypt then I don't think so because she and the other Amazons there sort of exiled themselves and were nomads until they went to egypt as they were the more separate and aggressive Amazons before rejoining Themyskira again. Makes me wonder if they're gonna make Artemis aggressive even though she was the nice one. I always liked her when she returned to Themyskira but this might be an interesting take on her with her out in the world.

I'll always remember her appearance in Gail Simone's Secret Six. Correct me if I'm wrong but it comes after Amazons Attack and a lot of Amazons were captured and were to be enslaved and were getting "broke in" via torture and she didn't break. Man those issues had some seriously powerful dialogue. 

Also she's pretty awesome in the Wonder Woman animated movie.

I'm interested in the team dynamic for sure. Especially Bizarro because it's an odd choice for a team book but I'm very curious. And how they would function around Jason and whether if he'll take a leader type role or if it would be on more equal standing. But I think Jason would take the leader role by default he's dealing with an Amazon in Man's World for the first time and Superman clone who's not really together I guess.

----------


## oasis1313

I'm excited for Artemis.  Starfire was always so helpless it'll be nice for Jason to have a team member who can carry her own weight.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm excited for Artemis.  *Starfire was always so helpless* it'll be nice for Jason to have a team member who can carry her own weight.


Obviously you didn't read the previous book

----------


## oasis1313

Starfire is just an excuse for Good Girl Art.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah it was def. the outfit for my reasoning and they really made Tim sort of dour and a little moody after Identity Crises.
> 
> Thanks for the info on Artemis guys. Pretty interesting.


http://static.tumblr.com/de593ffd836...c_picjason.gif

Kicks at Dawn, sir!




> I'm glad that they're keeping Artemis with a very very long ponytail. Out of everyone she was the only person to ever maintain their 90's rapunzel ponytail. 
> 
> If Jason does get with Artemis I'd rather it be friends with benefits type thing at first because I don't think Jason and Artemis are the romantic types but would maybe want to deal with their attraction in a way that doesn't complicate things. But if they do get romantic and it's good writing then I don't mind.  
> 
> I wonder if she's even met Diana. if they said she lives in Egypt then I don't think so because she and the other Amazons there sort of exiled themselves and were nomads until they went to egypt as they were the more separate and aggressive Amazons before rejoining Themyskira again. Makes me wonder if they're gonna make Artemis aggressive even though she was the nice one. I always liked her when she returned to Themyskira but this might be an interesting take on her with her out in the world.
> 
> I'll always remember her appearance in Gail Simone's Secret Six. Correct me if I'm wrong but it comes after Amazons Attack and a lot of Amazons were captured and were to be enslaved and were getting "broke in" via torture and she didn't break. Man those issues had some seriously powerful dialogue. 
> 
> Also she's pretty awesome in the Wonder Woman animated movie.
> ...


Good post. I actually think the last time we`ve seen Artemis might have been in AA. I`m interested in Artemis because Loedbell seems to also bringing back the Banas in Egypt which is a ramification of plot left (Perez era) that I remember enjoying reading (I first read the "Contest" back then but by that time I think the origins had been changed a tad). 

Makes sense for Jay to lead: he`s the main character of the book, but Outlaws should keep the tradition of being more of a fluid dinamic than a straight up hierarchy. They will all assume that mantle depending the situation.

----------


## Aioros22

> Obviously you didn't read the previous book


Oi. If there`s a criticism you can make about Starfire in RATHO, that would never be it, given the number of times she bailed/helped them out.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason. Prepare for the roughest noogie ever.
> 
> Also shouldn't that be Auntie?


Looks like Jason is pulling a variation of "Daddy's busy" a la Lost Days. Doesn't seem to work so well now lol.

----------


## oasis1313

> Looks like Jason is pulling a variation of "Daddy's busy" a la Lost Days. Doesn't seem to work so well now lol.


I'm pleased.  Bizarro and Artemis will make for a better team for Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Based Lobdell
https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...71533957722112

----------


## Alycat

> Based Lobdell
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...71533957722112


I can see that answering catching criticism considering the fact that she is an Amazon. Also I can only imagine the people who want Jason to be bi turning that back on him.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I can see that answering catching criticism considering the fact that she is an Amazon. Also I can only imagine the people who want Jason to be bi turning that back on him.


I could see that as well

----------


## RedQueen

> Based Lobdell
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...71533957722112


So technically pansexual i believe? Like Deadpool

----------


## Orujo-man

I'll never understand why people give so much importance to the sexuality of the characters in comics. I don't know, I think it's more important to know how Artemis is integrated into the group or as strong she is and breaks heads with her ax rather than if bi, lesbian or whatever.

For me Artemis is a warrior first. Whatever the sexual orientation of her, I don't care. The same if Lobdell decides that she and Jason are dating, I don't care. While it is a good character and she has a good development, perfect for me.

Edit: It's funny, I always thought it was Lodbell but I was wrong, it is Lobdell. I apologize for all the times I wrote it wrong.

----------


## oasis1313

I'd like it if they focus on the action/adventure stuff and just leave the sexuality out of the picture, getting a little tired of all the attention on sexual orientation these days.  Maybe somebody is too busy fighting crime to think about Politically Correct issues.

----------


## adrikito

> I'll never understand why people give so much importance to the sexuality of the characters in comics. I don't know, I think it's more important to know how Artemis is integrated into the group or as strong she is and breaks heads with her ax rather than if bi, lesbian or whatever.


However, I see it interesting... For know more about the character and his life..

If the character is worthy.... Knowing this is not a problem.. you are interested in the character and you need know more about him..

Before Batman Eternal/Robin Eternal... I searched information about the reason of these stories.

-*Steph*(spoiler(daughter of cluemaster),robin, then "death", batgirl after cass resignation) 
-*Cass*(daughter of David Cain and Shiva(N52 not mentioned that, I think).. trained to be the bodyguard of the Al Ghul(if I remember correctly)... batgirl, black bat) both girls good friends, Tim and Steph relation... 

I listened as people wanted both characters again in N52 and both were characters from the Batman world(and I love this world since my childhood..) that I don´t know in this time and for this I searched information about both girls.. YES, Is imposible know the same as the old fans but... is a valuable information about these characters past..


Today, I appreciate both characters... For this I liked see both in the Detective Comics team.

----------


## madrox83

I know I'm a bit late to the party but I get my books once a month. This new RhaTO series is awesome so far. And the art.

May the reign of Dexter Soy last years. Love his Red Hood.

----------


## Aahz

So after reading Countdown I really have to say that the characterisation of Jason was actually OK, problem was just again that he didn't really had a purpose in the story, the Dynamik with the other team mates was also not that great and for me it seemed that the writer didn't had a clear idea where to go with him from the start.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The direction was clear. Rehabilitate Jason and bringing him back into the fold as Red Robin, there were even an editorial teasing a future team up of Red Robin (Jason) and Robin (Tim). Problem was, Morrison had plans to use Damian as his Robin, leaving Tim without a role. So they sacrificed Jason to give Tim the Red Robin persona. You can see clearly how by the end they backpedaled HARD with Jason to let him in the same place he was at the beginning of the story.

----------


## godisawesome

It might have still worked out if Countdown as a whole hadn't fallen apart; success for the overall story would have encouraged a spin off for Jason, in the same way that Nightwing became a huge succes because he spun out of the Judas Contract. Instead, we had a backlash that arguably foreshadowed Tim's Rebirth repackaging after the failure of two separate Teen Titans books.

I'm curious how well Jason Todd as Red Robin would have worked. I've personally liked the commando aesthetic of most of Jason's looks.

----------


## Aahz

> The direction was clear. Rehabilitate Jason and bringing him back into the fold as Red Robin, there were even an editorial teasing a future team up of Red Robin (Jason) and Robin (Tim). Problem was, Morrison had plans to use Damian as his Robin, leaving Tim without a role. So they sacrificed Jason to give Tim the Red Robin persona. You can see clearly how by the end they backpedaled HARD with Jason to let him in the same place he was at the beginning of the story.


Ok than is the problem that they changed the direction half way to the story.

Honestly I don't mind that he didn't kept the Red Robin persona, I prefer Red Hood.

And I still find it kind of strange that he, as one of the main protagonists at the beginning of the series, kind of completely dropped out of it during the final issues.

----------


## Orujo-man

I guess when Jason kills the Joker from the other universe, the authors wanted to cut any possible progress, establishing a simile with the other Batman who killed the Joker and gave him the Red Robin suit.

I find Countdown too boring and tedious,I read the surface only. Personal opinion of course.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

Honestly I wouldn't mind a rehabilitated version of Jason as Red hood. Although what sort of weapon would he use if he wasn't using guns?

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly I wouldn't mind a rehabilitated version of Jason as Red hood. Although what sort of weapon would he use if he wasn't using guns?


If we also exclude bladed weapons and not just let him fight with his fists, to go for something that is more in line with what the others are using (Bo-Staff and escrima sticks), I would go for Tonfas. They look a little bit more brutal imo and if you go for a telescopic version he could still ware them like pistols.

----------


## Alycat

> I guess when Jason kills the Joker from the other universe, the authors wanted to cut any possible progress, establishing a simile with the other Batman who killed the Joker and gave him the Red Robin suit.
> 
> I find Countdown too boring and tedious,I read the surface only. Personal opinion of course.


I agree with u on Countdown. It's a shame how such a cool premise got wasted and turned into a boring confusing mess.

----------


## oasis1313

> The direction was clear. Rehabilitate Jason and bringing him back into the fold as Red Robin, there were even an editorial teasing a future team up of Red Robin (Jason) and Robin (Tim). Problem was, Morrison had plans to use Damian as his Robin, leaving Tim without a role. So they sacrificed Jason to give Tim the Red Robin persona. You can see clearly how by the end they backpedaled HARD with Jason to let him in the same place he was at the beginning of the story.


Story of Tim Drake:  Some other character is ALWAYS being sacrificed for his sake.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'm glad that they're keeping Artemis with a very very long ponytail. Out of everyone she was the only person to ever maintain their 90's rapunzel ponytail. 
> 
> If Jason does get with Artemis I'd rather it be friends with benefits type thing at first because I don't think Jason and Artemis are the romantic types but would maybe want to deal with their attraction in a way that doesn't complicate things. But if they do get romantic and it's good writing then I don't mind.  
> 
> I wonder if she's even met Diana. if they said she lives in Egypt then I don't think so because she and the other Amazons there sort of exiled themselves and were nomads until they went to egypt as they were the more separate and aggressive Amazons before rejoining Themyskira again. Makes me wonder if they're gonna make Artemis aggressive even though she was the nice one. I always liked her when she returned to Themyskira but this might be an interesting take on her with her out in the world.
> 
> I'll always remember her appearance in Gail Simone's Secret Six. Correct me if I'm wrong but it comes after Amazons Attack and a lot of Amazons were captured and were to be enslaved and were getting "broke in" via torture and she didn't break. Man those issues had some seriously powerful dialogue. 
> 
> Also she's pretty awesome in the Wonder Woman animated movie.
> ...


Really hope they go the "Mr. Fixit" route with this Bizarro. Give him the Kon-El black shirt (with the reverse "S" symbol), and jeans, but with that Mr. Fixit swag and personality.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Based Lobdell
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...71533957722112


Not really, as this should be expected; as she's not lived on Paradise Island, from what we know). He didn't need to clarify this.

----------


## AJpyro

> Not really, as this should be expected; as she's not lived on Paradise Island, from what we know). He didn't need to clarify this.


You'd be surprised on how much of a stink people would raise over this.

----------


## Aioros22

> Really hope they go the "Mr. Fixit" route with this Bizarro. Give him the Kon-El black shirt (with the reverse "S" symbol), and jeans, but with that Mr. Fixit swag and personality.


Lo and behold, you say this in the same week where I`ve been re-reading some Fixit love. 

Best Hulk evah.




> You'd be surprised on how much of a stink people would raise over this.


Internet being internet and people in general having too much time in their hands.

----------


## REAL

> The direction was clear. Rehabilitate Jason and bringing him back into the fold as Red Robin, there were even an editorial teasing a future team up of Red Robin (Jason) and Robin (Tim). Problem was, Morrison had plans to use Damian as his Robin, leaving Tim without a role. So they sacrificed Jason to give Tim the Red Robin persona. You can see clearly how by the end they backpedaled HARD with Jason to let him in the same place he was at the beginning of the story.


Oh my, Morrison (unintentionally) saved Jason from the Red Robin mantle and being stuck with Tim in a book? Wow. 

Now we can't say that Morrison never did anything good for Jason.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Oh my, Morrison (unintentionally) saved Jason from the Red Robin mantle and being stuck with Tim in a book? Wow. 
> 
> Now we can't say that Morrison never did anything good for Jason.


Also Morrison brought us Scarlet. But it's not enough to the horror we suffer with the red dildo head costume.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Also Morrison brought us Scarlet. But it's not enough to the horror we suffer with the red dildo head costume.


Joker pulled off the look quite well, in Zero Year, lol. But yeah, that costume, and those red guns, were not good to the eyes. 

Really wish Scarlet was back, tho. This Jason would be much better for her.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Joker pulled off the look quite well, in Zero Year, lol. But yeah, that costume, and those red guns, were not good to the eyes. 
> 
> Really wish Scarlet was back, tho. This Jason would be much better for her.


Yeah I know but Joker has style. With the suit and the cape it's like a magician or something like that. 

For the contrary the other, besides of make my eyes bleed, it looks like a ugly toy doll. The kind that if you press the head will move his arms.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Joker pulled off the look quite well, in Zero Year*, lol. But yeah, that costume, and those red guns, were not good to the eyes. 
> 
> Really wish Scarlet was back, tho. This Jason would be much better for her.


Nope, having him use a helmet one size smaller just to show his mouth is retarded, plus they took away the cape. That is what made the original costume _classy_


Then again, Zero Year was offensively mediocre.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Nope, having him use a helmet one size smaller just to show his mouth is retarded, plus they took away the cape. That is what made the original costume _classy_
> 
> 
> Then again, Zero Year was offensively mediocre.


No, that's what made the suit look stupid. The helmet being smaller made him look unique, and it also having a silly element made his actions way more eff'd in those first 4 issues. 

Also, yeah, the Dark City part wasn't that compelling (as it felt as tho he was dragging it out for Eternal), but the first 4 issues well done. 

Better than anything Lobdell has done in several years, at least.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Yeah I know but Joker has style. With the suit and the cape it's like a magician or something like that. 
> 
> For the contrary the other, besides of make my eyes bleed, it looks like a ugly toy doll. The kind that if you press the head will move his arms.


Well, maybe this time she wouldn't have to her face too badly disfigured, but still have suffered some messed up torture all over.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No, that's what made the suit look stupid. The helmet being smaller made him look unique, and it also having a silly element made his actions way more eff'd in those first 4 issues. 
> 
> Also, yeah, the Dark City part wasn't that compelling (as it felt as tho he was dragging it out for Eternal), but the first 4 issues well done. 
> 
> Better than anything Lobdell has done in several years, at least.


It was a pointless change done just so Snyder could satisfy his Joker obsession. The whole point of the Red Hood story is that he was a literal nobody who no one cared about until a connection was made between him and the Joker. Snyder once again missed the whole point of the character by turning him into the Joker from the get go. And there's nothing silly in that interpretation, is just grim and grittiness. Snyder simply can't write another kind of Joker.

Nah, Snyder's last decent story was the Court of Owls and even that had a terrible ending. Lobdell has been consistently a great read.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Well, maybe this time she wouldn't have to her face too badly disfigured, but still have suffered some messed up torture all over.


Emm, I was talk about the Red Hood costume of Morrison run, not Scarlet. He seems like an Action Man or something.

I'm sorry if my words could confuse someone.

----------


## Alycat

> It was a pointless change done just so Snyder could satisfy his Joker obsession. The whole point of the Red Hood story is that he was a literal nobody who no one cared about until a connection was made between him and the Joker. Snyder once again missed the whole point of the character by turning him into the Joker from the get go. And there's nothing silly in that interpretation, is just grim and grittiness. Snyder simply can't write another kind of Joker.
> 
> Nah, Snyder's last decent story was the Court of Owls and even that had a terrible ending. Lobdell has been consistently a great read.


I'm no fan of Snyder, but I highly doubt this is true critically or sales wise. But yeah Snyders joker is ugh.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> It was a pointless change done just so Snyder could satisfy his Joker obsession. The whole point of the Red Hood story is that he was a literal nobody who no one cared about until a connection was made between him and the Joker. Snyder once again missed the whole point of the character by turning him into the Joker from the get go. And there's nothing silly in that interpretation, is just grim and grittiness. Snyder simply can't write another kind of Joker.
> 
> Nah, Snyder's last decent story was the Court of Owls and even that had a terrible ending. Lobdell has been consistently a great read.


Yeah, and that only works the first time. Making the Red Hood an anonymous nobody when we know it was always going to be the Joker again would've been pointless. And him doing his own interpretation of Joker, rather than the same silly ones of the past is good; it's called variety. Besides, he's still technically unknown as there's 3 different Jokers. Seeing him construct a gang of thugs, and CEOs, was messed up. He could've ruled Gotham, in every way, but instead force those that built Gotham destroy while a part of his gang. I liked that.

Regardless, we'll just have to agree to disagree. That whole run was awesome, and I really liked that 2 issue Requiem arc. Happy to see him doing All-Star Batman (only if he cared about Jason enough to want to write him....).

----------


## AJpyro

Found this:

https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...22499355058176

Mic drop.

----------


## Aioros22

> Found this:
> 
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...22499355058176
> 
> Mic drop.


..."despite chanching his backstory twice"

Girl, he hasn`t. What book have you people been reading _reading_? 

This must be a no prize to whoever looks the most foolish online.

----------


## Alycat

> ..."despite chanching his backstory twice"
> 
> Girl, he hasn`t. What book have you people been reading _reading_? 
> 
> This must be a no prize to whoever looks the most foolish online.


Most likely the joker stuff that everyone hated and the way he and Batman met that Rebirth fixed back to being due to timeline shenanigans. Her comparison is silly either way.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Found this:
> 
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...22499355058176
> 
> Mic drop.


I knew that people of Twitter would come back with the Jason bi theme. They are more tired than a cow in your arms. I wouldn't like be in the shoes of Lobdell.

----------


## Aioros22

> Most likely the joker stuff that everyone hated and the way he and Batman met that Rebirth fixed back to being due to timeline shenanigans. Her comparison is silly either way.


None of that is backstory change. The Joker bit reads as creppy, stalkerish borrowing on horror but it`s never supposed to be considered The Jason Todd origin anywhere in the narration. It`s psychological triller shaped as a weapon by the Joker to further break him - which doesn`t work in Death Of The Family, btw. Joker feeling entitled to Jason out of everyone save Bruce isn`t a novelty, but they`ve pushed it to new heights ever since.

At most it`s a possibility left hang in the air, a sort of urban ghost story, which  is what I enjoy about it. 

Rebirth didn`t fix anything regarding his backstory that was supposed to be broken. Loedbell is simply picking different angles of one major story of a character and runs from there. Before he found it more interesting telling us about the Talia-Jason connection and how that led to All Caste, picking from his return. Now, he`s going back to basics and picking from the Batman-Jason connection and it`s telling us how his training under him started. 

Like the man says, he`s not particularly erasing anything, he`s expanding and has been doing it since the first issue of the first volume.

----------


## The Whovian

> None of that is backstory change. The Joker bit reads as creppy, stalkerish borrowing on horror but it`s never supposed to be considered The Jason Todd origin anywhere in the narration. It`s psychological triller shaped as a weapon by the Joker to further break him - which doesn`t work in Death Of The Family, btw. Joker feeling entitled to Jason out of everyone save Bruce isn`t a novelty, but they`ve pushed it to new heights ever since.
> 
> At most it`s a possibility left hang in the air, a sort of urban ghost story, which  is what I enjoy about it. 
> 
> Rebirth didn`t fix anything regarding his backstory that was supposed to be broken. Loedbell is simply picking different angles of one major story of a character and runs from there. Before he found it more interesting telling us about the Talia-Jason connection and how that led to All Caste, picking from his return. Now, he`s going back to basics and picking from the Batman-Jason connection and it`s telling us how his training under him started. 
> 
> Like the man says, he`s not particularly erasing anything, he`s expanding and has been doing it since the first issue of the first volume.


Agreed. Scott, just keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep buying it.

----------


## Alycat

> None of that is backstory change. The Joker bit reads as creppy, stalkerish borrowing on horror but it`s never supposed to be considered The Jason Todd origin anywhere in the narration. It`s psychological triller shaped as a weapon by the Joker to further break him - which doesn`t work in Death Of The Family, btw. Joker feeling entitled to Jason out of everyone save Bruce isn`t a novelty, but they`ve pushed it to new heights ever since.
> 
> At most it`s a possibility left hang in the air, a sort of urban ghost story, which  is what I enjoy about it. 
> 
> Rebirth didn`t fix anything regarding his backstory that was supposed to be broken. Loedbell is simply picking different angles of one major story of a character and runs from there. Before he found it more interesting telling us about the Talia-Jason connection and how that led to All Caste, picking from his return. Now, he`s going back to basics and picking from the Batman-Jason connection and it`s telling us how his training under him started. 
> 
> Like the man says, he`s not particularly erasing anything, he`s expanding and has been doing it since the first issue of the first volume.


I was talking more about how we went from the drug stealing meeting with Leslie back to the tire stealing origin in Rebirth. That's what people were glad that was fixed. Unless both of those things still happened, which would be strange.

----------


## Orujo-man

> None of that is backstory change. The Joker bit reads as creppy, stalkerish borrowing on horror but it`s never supposed to be considered The Jason Todd origin anywhere in the narration. It`s psychological triller shaped as a weapon by the Joker to further break him - which doesn`t work in Death Of The Family, btw. Joker feeling entitled to Jason out of everyone save Bruce isn`t a novelty, but they`ve pushed it to new heights ever since.
> 
> At most it`s a possibility left hang in the air, a sort of urban ghost story, which  is what I enjoy about it. 
> 
> Rebirth didn`t fix anything regarding his backstory that was supposed to be broken. Loedbell is simply picking different angles of one major story of a character and runs from there. Before he found it more interesting telling us about the Talia-Jason connection and how that led to All Caste, picking from his return. Now, he`s going back to basics and picking from the Batman-Jason connection and it`s telling us how his training under him started. 
> 
> Like the man says, he`s not particularly erasing anything, he`s expanding and has been doing it since the first issue of the first volume.


I agree with you, I always saw the story that the Joker told us about the origin of Jason as a cruel joke, leaving the reader to interpret whether it was true or not. Knowing the joker and his macabre sense of humor, I would not take it as real or completely canonical.

----------


## Aioros22

> I was talking more about how we went from the drug stealing meeting with Leslie back to the tire stealing origin in Rebirth. That's what people were glad that was fixed. Unless both of those things still happened, which would be strange.


Would one need to exclude the other? Jason was stealing before he moved to Wayne Manor so he`s got stories to tell that don`t involve Bruce.

----------


## Alycat

> Would one need to exclude the other? Jason was stealing before he moved to Wayne Manor so he`s got stories to tell that don`t involve Bruce.


Except that particular story was exactly how he met Bruce and got taken in the New 52 if I'm remembering correctly. It wasn't bad or unrealistic just different. That could be where some backstory confusion comes from since Rebirth goes back to the tire stealing and Ma gunn school origin to being their introduction.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I agree with you, I always saw the story that the Joker told us about the origin of Jason as a cruel joke, leaving the reader to interpret whether it was true or not. Knowing the joker and his macabre sense of humor, I would not take it as real or completely canonical.


The Joker is an unreliable narrator so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If he is narrating the "Origin of Jason Todd" as he did at the end of that issue then that origin is itself suspect. I never took it literally or even seriously and I'm not sure we were even meant to. There were simply far too many coincidences in his story so even while I was reading it I just rolled my eyes and thought "tell me another".

----------


## Orujo-man

> Except that particular story was exactly how he met Bruce and got taken in the New 52 if I'm remembering correctly. It wasn't bad or unrealistic just different. That could be where some backstory confusion comes from since Rebirth goes back to the tire stealing and Ma gunn school origin to being their introduction.


Yes, you're right about that. I just checked the comic and just when Jason jumps out the window with the medicine box, Bruce intercepts, slams against the Batmobile and will put the handcuffs. After that, Leslie appears.




> The Joker is an unreliable narrator so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. If he is narrating the "Origin of Jason Todd" as he did at the end of that issue then that origin is itself suspect. I never took it literally or even seriously and I'm not sure we were even meant to. There were simply far too many coincidences in his story so even while I was reading it I just rolled my eyes and thought "tell me another".


Exactly. Besides considering the whole event of Death of the Family, all the writters played with this ambiguity even in the end. I just think Lobdell wanted to contribute their bit with the Joker and Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yes, you're right about that. I just checked the comic and just when Jason jumps out the window with the medicine box, Bruce intercepts, slams against the Batmobile and will put the handcuffs. After that, Leslie appears.


IIRC, it`s not where he was taken to the Manor and where Batman opened up that he was Bruce Wayne. Did Rebirt explicity told us that the stealing tires was absolutely the first time they ever eyed each other in Crime Alley?

I conceed I didn`t remembered Bruce in the scene because it was more about how Leslie and Jason would know of each other, a nod to the pre-post crisis transition in Detective where Leslie had her open door in CA. Bruce being there is also because of her, so it`s a coincidental tie because of one person. But as long it`s not the time Bruce takes him in, "Batman" is still an anomaly to Jason as an entity.

----------


## G-Potion

> Found this:
> 
> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...22499355058176
> 
> Mic drop.



Jesus. Does this happen to other Batfam's writers as well or is Lobdell just easy target? This is getting annoying.

----------


## Aahz

Unless Lobell somehow manages to brings the Leslie part back as a flashback and conects it somehow with tire stealing and Ma Gun, I think would claim that he changed the origin.
But How Bruce and Jason exactly met doesn't have that much influence on the character as long as the important part of his back ground (him being a crime ally kid) is still intact. The parts of meeting Batman and becoming Robin from Arkham Knight Genesis or the DCAU Tim Drake Origin would work as good as origins for the current new 52 Jason even if are again two completely different stories.

Making him bi on the other hand would change the character and could potentially retroactively change his established relations with other characters.

Origins are overrated imo (at least if it are new versions of origins for already established characters), look at Tim Drake. Lots of people claimed he was ruined because of his new origin. But now everybody seems fine with him in 'tec despite his new origin still being canon.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't mind Jason as bi or whatever sexuality. Also don't think it would change his core character that extensively. My problem is with the people who demand this from Lobdell, as they pretty much have no care for his work on RHATO and often misunderstand it. This demand is either to fulfill their headcanons or for the sake of "representation", regardless of its non-relevance to the story Lobdell is telling and making him out to be the bad guy if he refuses to do as they say. This particular person chooses to ignore the "make Jason Latino" bit and makes Lobdell's argument all about Jason's sexuality. I just checked Lobdell's twitter. More of this bs incoming. Ugh.

----------


## Alycat

I know the Teen Titans book was straight dumpster fire, but Bunker was a good character . These people should be asking DC about putting him in some books instead of changing others Latino and bi. Lobdell should just ignore them.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't mind Jason as bi or whatever sexuality.


I don't want Jason to become the LGBT-Robin

----------


## Aioros22

> Unless Lobell somehow manages to brings the Leslie part back as a flashback and conects it somehow with tire stealing and Ma Gun, I think would claim that he changed the origin.


Well, for fun`s sake, since I don`t have it with me at present, let`s make a play by play on the Leslie thing. The gang is there to rob Leslie but Jason ends up foiling the robbery. What exactly happens next? He`s about to be jailed but Leslie vouches for him? Batman sees the thing from distance? What exact interaction between the two is there?

That alone is what makes this a change or not. If there is especific interaction indicating that Bruce met Jason there and whatever interaction they`ve had led directly to him living in Wayne Manor, it`s one thing. If he simply witnessed a kid being brave enough to foil a robbery among his kin, that doesn`t fancy me a major thing, other than Bruce _maybe_ recognizing Jay after he caught him stealing the tires. It doesn`t really retract from the scene since he still doesn`t know the kid yet.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I don't want Jason to become the LGBT-Robin


Make a new Robin who can fill that role more naturally.

----------


## Alycat

> Well, for fun`s sake, since I don`t have it with me at present, let`s make a play by play on the Leslie thing. The gang is there to rob Leslie but Jason ends up foiling the robbery. What exactly happens next? He`s about to be jailed but Leslie vouches for him? Batman sees the thing from distance? What exact interaction between the two is there?
> 
> That alone is what makes this a change or not. If there is especific interaction indicating that Bruce met Jason there and whatever interaction they`ve had led directly to him living in Wayne Manor, it`s one thing. If he simply witnessed a kid being brave enough to foil a robbery among his kin, that doesn`t fancy me a major thing, other than Bruce _maybe_ recognizing Jay after he caught him stealing the tires. It doesn`t really retract from the scene since he still doesn`t know the kid yet.


I would say it was a specific interaction in this case. Batman stops Jason from stealing from Leslie and is about to take him to jail. But Leslie stops him and asks him to give Jason a chance and this leads directly to scenes showing Jason at the manor. It's implied that Bruce is taking him in to give him that chance , unless I remember that entire scene wrong.

----------


## Orujo-man

> IIRC, it`s not where he was taken to the Manor and where Batman opened up that he was Bruce Wayne. Did Rebirt explicity told us that the stealing tires was absolutely the first time they ever eyed each other in Crime Alley?
> 
> I conceed I didn`t remembered Bruce in the scene because it was more about how Leslie and Jason would know of each other, a nod to the pre-post crisis transition in Detective where Leslie had her open door in CA. Bruce being there is also because of her, so it`s a coincidental tie because of one person. But as long it`s not the time Bruce takes him in, "Batman" is still an anomaly to Jason as an entity.


In new 52 Jason is stabbed or shot. Leslie then picks it up, takes him to her clinic and cures him. Then Jason jumps out the window of the clinic with medicine box and finds Batman. In that scene Jason clarifies that it is the first time he meets Batman. Batman intercepts him and stops him. In that moment Leslie appears interceding for him. Later Bruce adopts Jason and later reveals to him he's Batman.

In Rebirth, when Jason was stealing the tires of the Batmobile, he says that was the night he met Batman.

The only way to fit both origins is that Jason escaped from Leslie after his first encounter with Batman and then stole the Batmobile tires. Thus it would be the second time he met Batman but on the same night.

But it's weird. In Rebirth issue is implicit Jason and Batman don't know each other before that. And like Alycat says, in New 52 origins was implied Bruce adopted Jason via Leslie. "A friend of a friend" Jason said.

----------


## Aioros22

If that`s what happened I`d consider it a new extrapolation of their first encounter yes. You`re right. I need to re-read it and get my whole RATHO together in my safeh..appartment. 

That being said, being still a encounter in similarity in criminal enviorment, it doesn`t change status quo orCcharacter, only the particularity of situation. How they make that leap to opening the door to rewriting DNA (in a manner of speaking) is something else. Fandom being fandom.

----------


## Aioros22

> In Rebirth, when Jason was stealing the tires of the Batmobile, he says that was the night he met Batman.
> 
> The only way to fit both origins is that Jason escaped from Leslie after his first encounter with Batman and then stole the Batmobile tires. Thus it would be the second time he met Batman but on the same night.


Yeah, the only thing in the way would it be any especific mention about the _when_. Jason stealing the tires as payback to Batman almost sending him to jail is whatever with me. I have little ambivalence either way unless it`s especific and well written. As it is, I`m real fine with the way it was handled in Rebirth but any mention of Leslie`s clinic in Crime Alley is always nice because of the historical nod, mostly.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Yeah, the only thing in the way would it be any especific mention about the _when_. Jason stealing the tires as payback to Batman almost sending him to jail is whatever with me. I have little ambivalence either way unless it`s especific and well written. As it is, I`m real fine with the way it was handled in Rebirth but any mention of Leslie`s clinic in Crime Alley is always nice because of the historical nod, mostly.


Yes, I really would like to see Leslie in the future, even if the origin of New 52 is not longer valid. Jason grew up in the streets, I always like to see when he encounters acquaintances or former friends. Really I enjoyed his encounter with Ma Gunn in the new series. Is a good way to expand the character.

----------


## REAL

Really love this variant.

----------


## Aioros22

The variants for the new RATHO have been absurdely good.

----------


## G-Potion

Love the colour choice for the car. Overall amazing variant, as always.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I'm really loving the variant covers for RHATO. So far they've all been amazing.

----------


## The Whovian

> Really love this variant.


This one is hilarious, but all the variants have been great. Did anyone notice the license plate number? 252. Could that be a little wink and nod to the New 52 vol 2 (Rebirth)?

----------


## Rise

Another awesome variant from Scalera  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This one is hilarious, but all the variants have been great.* Did anyone notice the license plate number? 252. Could that be a little wink and nod to the New 52 vol 2 (Rebirth)?*


I noticed that too and wondered the same thing.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. do you think that what happened in the last 'Tec issue will be addressed in the next issue of RHatO and do you think that it will affect Jason relation with Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Btw. do you think that what happened in the last 'Tec issue will be addressed in the next issue of RHatO and do you think that it will affect Jason relation with Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily.


Jason's deep undercover right now so I don't really expect him to be informed because of that. I would like to see it addressed though since Jason and Tim were close (unless that aspect was changed with Rebirth). If he finds out I think he'll be angry at Bruce for letting another one die of course even more so if he isn't told.

----------


## REAL

Huh? Why Jason would be angery at Batman?

----------


## Rise

Yeah, Jason didn't have much of reaction when Damian died and when Dick supposedly died. 

And I hope Lobdell doesn't bother with the drama in Batman line if there need for it and just let Jason do his own thing away from them.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Btw. do you think that what happened in the last 'Tec issue will be addressed in the next issue of RHatO and do you think that it will affect Jason relation with Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily.


The truth I have no idea.

It might be interesting if in future issues the "death" of Tim affects Jason in his conviction to maintain his current modus operandi, which now is follow the rules of Batman. He would question his role of trying to prove something to Bruce, who maybe blame somehow and affect future events as might be the way to end his current mission against Black Mask.

That said, I wouldn't want this to be a tear drama. Rather a way to rethink his path and from there, to confirm their own ideals or how to act, whatever they are.

But if we look back Lobdell could well follow the same path as before and no reference to Tim's "death" as happened with Dick or just spend one or two pages like he did with Damian after his resurrection.

----------


## REAL

> Yeah, Jason didn't have much of reaction when Damian died and when Dick supposedly died. 
> 
> And I hope Lobdell doesn't bother with the drama in Batman line if there need for it and just let Jason do his own thing away from them.


Exactly. 

There's nothing wrong if Lobdell decided to acknowledge it in one panel or something, but it shouldn't have any affect on Jason, the story or his relationship with the others because Tim isn't really dead and I'm not in the freaking mood for any cheap drama.

----------


## Alycat

I agree with you guys. Let someone tell him Tims dead and let's move on. His position currently doesn't really allow him to mourn much either.  Like when is Jason's stuff even taking place?Maybe I'm just still salty that everyone skipped over Dicks death, but I have no faith in any proper acknowledgement.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #5
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“DARK TRINITY” part five! Red Hood and Artemis team up against a rampaging Bizarro—and it’s a race against the clock to save him—and the city—from Black Mask’s mind-controlling techno-organic virus!
On sale DECEMBER 14 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Lhynn

> Jason's deep undercover right now so I don't really expect him to be informed because of that. I would like to see it addressed though since Jason and Tim were close (unless that aspect was changed with Rebirth). If he finds out I think he'll be angry at Bruce for letting another one die of course even more so if he isn't told.


Considering they were pretty close? Like good friends kinda close. Yeah, it should happen.  Tho im hesitant to have lodbell anywhere near Tim.

----------


## The Whovian

I really hope Lobdell and Soy stay on the book a long time.

----------


## Orujo-man

That cover confusing me a little. More of that, for the leather mask of Black Mask. 

It seems like a poster of any kind of erotic-sadomasochistic spectacle in Wednesday's night.

Jokes aside, good cover.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah, Jason didn't have much of reaction when Damian died and when Dick supposedly died. 
> 
> And I hope Lobdell doesn't bother with the drama in Batman line if there need for it and just let Jason do his own thing away from them.


Nobody had a reaction when Dick died, editorial made sure of it, but Damian? He had some. He`s not an automaton without emotions, no matter how much he may see Damian as a pest. 

This is a curious case because right now his book doesn`t allow for much interaction or re-action to business closer to the family (not being part of he first crossover, etc) but he should have a reaction towards Tim`s appearant demise, regardless of New52 or otherwise. Tim was either a rival or the closest bond and that`s bound to trigger something in him. 

I know Tim`s use in TT wasn`t liked but I find that Loedbell`s handling of Tim in *RATHO* was different, as in better. So he may tackle it likewise as long it`s in this book. Personally I hope some friendship between the two remains. The two disliking some of Alfred`s cuisine is a guilty pleasure and too fun.

----------


## Aioros22

> That cover confusing me a little. More of that, for the leather mask of Black Mask. 
> 
> It seems like a poster of any kind of *erotic-sadomasochistic spectacle in Wednesday's night*.
> 
> Jokes aside, good cover.


That`s part of the fun too and I think it shows in way of characterization. The mask could be tweeked further but it`s better than Red Skull-lite if you ask me.

----------


## Orujo-man

> That`s part of the fun too and I think it shows in way of characterization. The mask could be tweeked further but it`s better than Red Skull-lite if you ask me.


Yeah that's right. I imagine some ideas about that and Black Mask develop. We know Black Mask is a sadic who kills without mercy and he is a controller, dominant person. He killed his parents also, perhaps this denote a strong desire for control, eliminating the authority figure. It would be a kind characterization if in future issues, Lobdell decides to show to his office or his safe place and we can see some leather whips, punishment chairs, ropes or fetish stuff. 

Even it could be more interesting if Lobdell turn this more macabre and put some elements of torture. I don't know, maybe is a a good background for the character, most having their current "kindness and confidence" with Jason. He's only playing a game, a charade.

Of course these are only ideas. And this may be putting in conflict his old origin, I must admit I don't know much about the character.

----------


## Aahz

@Black Mask
I think a villain whose origin story includes falling on his head as a new born, being bitten by a rabid raccoon and ruining the cosmetics company of his parents  shouldn't be taken to serious.

----------


## Aioros22

> @Black Mask
> I think a villain whose origin story includes falling on his head as a new born, being bitten by a rabid raccoon and ruining the cosmetics company of his parents  shouldn't be taken to serious.





> Yeah that's right. I imagine some ideas about that and Black Mask develop. We know Black Mask is a sadic who kills without mercy and he is a controller, dominant person. He killed his parents also, perhaps this denote a strong desire for control, eliminating the authority figure. It would be a kind characterization if in future issues, Lobdell decides to show to his office or his safe place and we can see some leather whips, punishment chairs, ropes or fetish stuff. 
> 
> Even it could be more interesting if Lobdell turn this more macabre and put some elements of torture. I don't know, maybe is a a good background for the character, most having their current "kindness and confidence" with Jason. He's only playing a game, a charade.
> 
> Of course these are only ideas. And this may be putting in conflict his old origin, I must admit I don't know much about the character.


Yeah, greenlit it.

----------


## Orujo-man

> @Black Mask
> I think a villain whose origin story includes falling on his head as a new born, being bitten by a rabid raccoon and ruining the cosmetics company of his parents  shouldn't be taken to serious.


I expected his old origin more... epic if is the word or tragic, I don't know. Anyway it was only an idea.

----------


## Rise

Love this cover more than the previous one  :Cool: 




> *Nobody had a reaction when Dick died, editorial made sure of it, but Damian? He had some. He`s not an automaton without emotions, no matter how much he may see Damian as a pest.* 
> 
> This is a curious case because right now his book doesn`t allow for much interaction or re-action to business closer to the family (not being part of he first crossover, etc) but he should have a reaction towards Tim`s appearant demise, regardless of New52 or otherwise. Tim was either a rival or the closest bond and that`s bound to trigger something in him. 
> 
> I know Tim`s use in TT wasn`t liked but I find that Loedbell`s handling of Tim in *RATHO* was different, as in better. So he may tackle it likewise as long it`s in this book. Personally I hope some friendship between the two remains. The two disliking some of Alfred`s cuisine is a guilty pleasure and too fun.


I'm kinda confused about what are you trying to say here, Aioros22  :Confused: 

I said that Jason didn't have much of reaction when Damian died and Dick died (I know that no one reacted). So, why would he be angry at Batman or spend time grieving when he didn't bother before? And I definitely don't blame any writer who doesn't bother to pause his story for a character who isn't even died to begin with. 

Like Jan already said, Lobdell can acknowledge it in one panel and that's it.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason did have some reactions when Damian did. He had interactions with Alfred and Bruce about him. Tim _could_ spark something perhaps more especific considering he was his closest bond amist the family. The Dick situation is an editorial offset but regardless Tim not being dead - they don`t know it.

In the end, obviously I`m more interested in Loedbell telling his story. Just saying, in terms of shared continuity..

----------


## Aahz

> I expected his old origin more... epic if is the word or tragic, I don't know. Anyway it was only an idea.


I kind of like his old origin, it is at least kind of unique.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

In regard to Jason reacting to Tim's death, I would say it would be a good idea to show how much he'd changed or at least maybe have Jason be the one going "Is he really dead?" Could be an interesting thing if some of his time is spent trying to find out if Tim is really dead or if there's something going on there. Also I would say he would be a bit upset at Bruce over it, and maybe mad at Kate as well because it's her father that caused it. I can see him certainly wanting to go after Jacob and probably Ulysses over this. 

Someone once suggested Mia for a RH book, actually adding her with Artemis and Bizzaro could be interesting if they decide to make her Speedy again. About Black Mask, I actually liked Red Skull lite, This one reminds me of a Kamen Rider villain for some reason. Then again Jason does where a helmet and sometimes rides a motorcycle.

----------


## Aioros22

> In regard to Jason reacting to Tim's death, I would say it would be a good idea to show how much he'd changed or at least maybe have Jason be the one going "Is he really dead?" Could be an interesting thing if some of his time is spent trying to find out if Tim is really dead or if there's something going on there. Also I would say he would be a bit upset at Bruce over it, and maybe mad at Kate as well because it's her father that caused it. I can see him certainly wanting to go after Jacob and probably Ulysses over this.


To me, that sort of reaction would suffice and show enough. And be on character while not over dramatic like some fear and still be on point.

----------


## Orujo-man

The problem with the drama is be abuse of it and tends to fall into cheap and empty cliches, devalued. At this time, I think has more significant one little gesture or no act with a some little changes of the behavior, leaving the initial reaction of the news to the reader's imagination. More that the classic cry scene or speech about how good was the dead in his life.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> In regard to Jason reacting to Tim's death, I would say it would be a good idea to show how much he'd changed or at least maybe have Jason be the one going "Is he really dead?" Could be an interesting thing if some of his time is spent trying to find out if Tim is really dead or if there's something going on there. Also I would say he would be a bit upset at Bruce over it, and maybe mad at Kate as well because it's her father that caused it. I can see him certainly wanting to go after Jacob and probably Ulysses over this. 
> 
> Someone once suggested Mia for a RH book, actually adding her with Artemis and Bizzaro could be interesting if they decide to make her Speedy again. About Black Mask, I actually liked Red Skull lite, This one reminds me of a Kamen Rider villain for some reason. Then again Jason does where a helmet and sometimes rides a motorcycle.


That was me, who suggested Mia. The characters have a lot in common, so It'd have been a nice fit.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Jason did have some reactions when Damian did. He had interactions with Alfred and Bruce about him. Tim _could_ spark something perhaps more especific considering he was his closest bond amist the family. The Dick situation is an editorial offset but regardless Tim not being dead - they don`t know it.
> 
> In the end, obviously I`m more interested in Loedbell telling his story. Just saying, in terms of shared continuity..


I could see Jason being a bit put off, but it's also like Jason to shrug it off and get back to what's important. At this point, enough of them have "died" for him to get over it pretty quickly, especially considering he knows that his death was treated like a Tuesday. 

Yeah, he might be closest to Tim, but that also means respect. Tim risked his life everyday, so thisshouldn't be surprising. Especially if how Tim died is explained to him.

At most, I'd expect a few panels, and nothing else. As it should be, because Jason has more important things to worry about, honestly. 

It's made even worse, because WE know he's not dead; so anymore time spent on it, is a waste of OUR time.

----------


## REAL

I don't know if I should be excited or not.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't know if I should be excited or not.


I'm excited. I've enjoyed King's _Batman_ thus far and more of Jason interacting outside of his own book is a good thing at least to me. I'm more concerned that editorial will once again not know what the heck to do with him there. King at least does his research so at least we might get a more consistent characterization from him then from someone like Tynion.

----------


## Aioros22

Wasn`t blown away by Robin War but a crossover is almost always a case of kitchen wars. I like King`s writting style so far (a bit meh on Batman admittedely, but it might be more on tone than voice or skill of his part) but I`m willing on see him handling Jason on his own this time. It`s always great to see more writers enjoying the opportunity to tackle the character. 

Annnd it`s also better in my view that he shows up in a sort of guest arc appearance for now.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I don't know if I should be excited or not.


I have fear about this. All was well for Jason...but now the editorial needs to put their hands where it shouldn't. I wish King do a good job with him.

----------


## Aioros22

> I could see Jason being a bit put off, but it's also like Jason to shrug it off and get back to what's important. At this point, enough of them have "died" for him to get over it pretty quickly, especially considering he knows that his death was *treated like a Tuesday*. 
> 
> Yeah, he might be closest to Tim, but that also means respect. Tim risked his life everyday, so thisshouldn't be surprising. Especially if how Tim died is explained to him.
> 
> At most, I'd expect a few panels, and nothing else. As it should be, because Jason has more important things to worry about, honestly. 
> 
> It's made even worse, because WE know he's not dead; so anymore time spent on it, is a waste of OUR time.


I`m with you on not overdoing the drama for it`s sake in terms of reader`s perspective. I`m almost sure you mean the bold as a figure of speech, thought?




> About Black Mask, I actually liked Red Skull lite, This one reminds me of a Kamen Rider villain for some reason. Then again Jason does where a helmet and sometimes rides a motorcycle.


I kid you not, but this is not the first time I`ve seen someone making that association. I`m not sure what it was, maybe so fanart or something, but it strikes me as familiar for some reason.

----------


## Aahz

Appart from the prison break scene, Jasons appearance in Robin war wasn't that great imo.

----------


## AJpyro

https://www.change.org/p/warner-brot...od-in-the-dceu

So...this is a thing...?

----------


## kaimaciel

> https://www.change.org/p/warner-brot...od-in-the-dceu
> 
> So...this is a thing...?


Oh hell no!!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Appart from the prison break scene, Jasons appearance in Robin war wasn't that great imo.


King didn't write all the issues in Robin's War though, just the opening and ending. The other issues involved in the crossover were written by other writers.




> https://www.change.org/p/warner-brot...od-in-the-dceu
> 
> So...this is a thing...?


I hope to high heaven not. Ungh.

----------


## Aioros22

Did he wrote Damian one shot both Tim and Jason?

Let this be yer redemption King.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Did he wrote Damian one shot both Tim and Jason?
> 
> Let this be yer redemption King.


Honestly I can't remember. The thing about that though is I can believe that Damian could, if he wanted to,  one shot both of them. He's been training ever since he was a young child and I feel that makes a difference. Same with Cass. Comparatively Jason and Tim have been training for a shorter period of time and while they are not slouches they still came into the training later in their lives. It's a bit like someone whose been learning a foreign language since they were four versus someone who only started in high school. Both people might be proficient in the language but the one whose been learning it since they were four might have a more native accent or speak in a more natural manner than the person who took up the language later in life.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

As someone that has utterly loathed everything King has written about batman so far. These are terrible news.

I knew they couldn't left Jason alone. Goddammit DC.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> As someone that has utterly loathed everything King has written about batman so far. These are terrible news.
> 
> I knew they couldn't left Jason alone. Goddammit DC.


Well there's always skipping the appearance altogether. No need to bother with something you know you're not going to like. I'd just like to see if the Bat office can do right by Jason this time around and King's far from the worst Bat writer to have used the character. That award goes to Tynion.

----------


## Alycat

> Did he wrote Damian one shot both Tim and Jason?
> 
> Let this be yer redemption King.


 I mean with the way it happened it wasn't like some crazy thing. I don't get why it makes people mad. He didn't exactly take them in a straight fight. I'm excited for this cause I like Kings writing.

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## Aahz

> I mean with the way it happened it wasn't like some crazy thing. I don't get why it makes people mad. He didn't exactly take them in a straight fight.


Thats exactly what Damian did imo. If Damian had used some tricks or Gadgets it would be OK for me but him taking down Jason like this was just ridiculous. 
And in previous fights Tim was usually able to take Damian quite easily, and Jason is usually written to be a better fighter than Tim.

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## JasonTodd428

> I mean with the way it happened it wasn't like some crazy thing. I don't get why it makes people mad. He didn't exactly take them in a straight fight. I'm excited for this cause I like Kings writing.


Yeah, I thought it was believable given that Damian was trained from an extremely young age. I also didn't have a problem when Cass one shot Dick. My problem there was with the fact that Dick proclaimed himself to be "the best" right before she did.




> Thats exactly what Damian did imo. If Damian had used some tricks or Gadgets it would be OK for me but him taking down Jason like this was just ridiculous.


So all the training Damian has had since he was barely able to walk means nothing then? His skill are at a different level from the other solely Bat trained Robins. That doesn't mean they're slouches or bad fighters. In an early post I likened it to having someone learning a foreign language from a young age versus someone who picked up the language in high school. While both may be proficient in the language the former will seem to speak it more naturally then the later unless the latter has a natural aptitude for languages.

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## Orujo-man

> Yeah, I thought it was believable given that Damian was trained from an extremely young age. I also didn't have a problem when Cass one shot Dick. My problem there was with the fact that Dick proclaimed himself to be "the best" right before she did.


For me it is not credible. No matter how much training had made Damian, both Jason and Tim are very experienced fighters. And not to mention height and weight difference, which is very important in a fight fighters with high degrees of experience. I'm not saying that Damian can not beat both of them somehow, but to knock them out with a single blow for each one?

I know it's a comic, but I expect a minimun of coherence.

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## REAL

Really, JT? Jason isn't some newbie who just started training shortly before RW happened. He is a guy who spent his childhood surviving in Gotham's streets and then was trained by some of the best fighters. A 10 years old shouldn't have been able to take him down easily no matter how well trained he was and that moment served nothing but making both Jason and Tim look bad.

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## JasonTodd428

> For me it is not credible. No matter how much training had made Damian, both Jason and Tim are very experienced fighters. And not to mention height and weight difference, which is very important in a fight fighters with high degrees of experience. I'm not saying that Damian can not beat both of them somehow, but to knock them out with a single blow for each one?
> 
> I know it's a comic, but I expect a minimun of coherence.


I never said they weren't experienced fighters though. Batman training leaves with an impressive set of skills and IF Dick, Jason and Tim had been training from the age Damian was then I would question this. What I am saying is that Damian, for better or worse, has been training since he was very young and that kind of immersive training Damian received is something different and on a whole different level from the training that Bruce gave Jason and Tim. That kind of training makes fighting a natural extension of your abilities and for both Damain and Cass fighting is ingrained in them in a way I don't believe it is with the others. Also Tim has never been that great of a physical fighter to begin with.

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## JasonTodd428

> Really, JT? Jason isn't some newbie who just started training shortly before RW happened. He is a guy who spent his childhood surviving in Gotham's streets and then was trained by some of the best fighters. A 10 years old shouldn't have been able to take him down easily no matter how well trained he was and that moment served nothing but making both Jason and Tim look bad.


For the love of Mike! I'M NOT SAYING OR IMPLYING THAT JASON IS SOME NEWBIE WANNABE WITH NO SKILLS. Geez! I thought you of all people knew me better than that, Real. I've only posted that twenty times already. I'm just saying that Damain and Cass had a different type of training and that it makes a difference in how they fight. They'd be a bit quicker, more agile, etc. Why do I feel like I'm talking to bunch of brick walls around here lately?

----------


## REAL

Who the heck is Mike? And why are you yelling? 

And Damian is _10 years old_. It doesn't make sense why he was able to take down a guy who is 10 times bigger than him unless that guy is some newbie with no skills.

And are implying that Damian start training since he was 1 year old? And Cass with her crazy ninja skills was at least older in PC.

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## JasonTodd428

> Who the heck is Mike? And why are you yelling? 
> 
> And Damian is _10 years old_. It doesn't make sense why he was able to take down a guy who is 10 times bigger than him unless that guy is some newbie with no skills.


It was more for emphasizing my point there then actual yelling there since it seems no one is really listening to what I'm saying. Also I've watched skinny little teen girls and a friends ten year old son taking down their much larger karate instructors in class or opponents at meets so it doesn't come off as impossible for a 10 year old like Damian to take down someone in their early twenties to me and I don't find it makes them look bad either.

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## REAL

I'm pretty sure that their "much larger" karate instructors weren't playing seriously against 10 years old kids. 

And funny thing that I actually do know a guy who is a karate instructor who once said that not one of his girls (even the ones with black belt) were able to take down a much larger guy who fight against them seriously.

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## Aioros22

> Honestly I can't remember. The thing about that though is I can believe that Damian could, if he wanted to,  one shot both of them. He's been training ever since he was a young child and I feel that makes a difference. Same with Cass. Comparatively Jason and Tim have been training for a shorter period of time and while they are not slouches they still came into the training later in their lives. It's a bit like someone whose been learning a foreign language since they were four versus someone who only started in high school. Both people might be proficient in the language but the one whose been learning it since they were four might have a more native accent or speak in a more natural manner than the person who took up the language later in life.


Oh, he could. If he catches any of them off-guard. Jason has pulled the trick of hitting both Dick and Tim (balls and face) at the same time too and I don`t recall them expecting it. 

Least we forget, no matter the potential Damian brings at his young age, he`s what now? 11? Jason and Tim have too much physicability to be taken like that head on. Besides, how much of an advantage him starting sooner is, really? It would _if_ they were all of similar ages, then he would have greater experience on either, but he isn`t. Jason is close to Dick`s age.

You bring home the point of Damian`s skill being higher than any of the others. Maybe at the same age, but the skills the others adquired from their training is similarly impressive in terms of hype. Damian doesn`t have a unique background in MA in comparison to the others.

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## JasonTodd428

> I'm pretty sure that their "much larger" karate instructors weren't playing seriously against 10 years old kids. 
> 
> And funny thing that I actually do know a guy who is a karate instructor who once said that not one of his girls (even the ones with black belt) were able to take down a much larger guy who fight against them seriously.


1. Depends on how serious the instructor and pupil are and even without that I doubt any karate instructor would just "let" a student win against them. That's counter productive and you can't learn anything that way. 

2. Again it depends on the girl involved. He may not have seen it happen but that doesn't mean its not possible only that he hasn't personally seen it happen.

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## Aioros22

> It was more for emphasizing my point there then actual yelling there since it seems no one is really listening to what I'm saying. Also I've watched skinny little teen girls and a friends ten year old son taking down their much larger karate instructors in class or opponents at meets so it doesn't come off as impossible for a 10 year old like Damian to take down someone in their early twenties to me and I don't find it makes them look bad either.


Hey, I`ve seen it too. 

But the teacher is there to be thrown down  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## JasonTodd428

You know what lets just agree to disagree on this. Some you have issues with what Damian did because of reasons and I didn't have issue with it because reasons. It happens.

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## JasonTodd428

> Hey, I`ve seen it too. 
> 
> But the teacher is there to be thrown down


Not easily though. Also opponents at meets aren't there to be thrown down now are they and some kids are larger then others.

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## Aioros22

> But opponents at meets aren't there to be thrown down now are they and some kids are larger then others.


Opponents would be of similar age. But this isn`t about Damian being a midget or it being imposible. It`s about Damian`s MA pedigree *not* being more impressive or unique than what Jason has trained for, for example. Both have been trained as assasins from similarly big secret organizations and both were also trained by Batman. But one is a young adult close to Dick`s age and the other is a midget whose body is not yet fully grown.

In especific situations maybe he could and obviously you saw the R:W scene as one. Alas, agree to disagree.

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## Orujo-man

> I never said they weren't experienced fighters though. Batman training leaves with an impressive set of skills and IF Dick, Jason and Tim had been training from the age Damian was then I would question this. What I am saying is that Damian, for better or worse, has been training since he was very young and that kind of immersive training Damian received is something different and on a whole different level from the training that Bruce gave Jason and Tim. That kind of training makes fighting a natural extension of your abilities and for both Damain and Cass fighting is ingrained in them in a way I don't believe it is with the others. Also Tim has never been that great of a physical fighter to begin with.


No matter how much Damian trained, are limits he can't surpass. Weight and stature are fundamental in a fight. More weight implies more power, not only muscle, by inertia. And more stature implies long arms, more range in their punches and better defense.




> It was more for emphasizing my point there then actual yelling there since it seems no one is really listening to what I'm saying. Also I've watched skinny little teen girls and a friends ten year old son taking down their much larger karate instructors in class or opponents at meets so it doesn't come off as impossible for a 10 year old like Damian to take down someone in their early twenties to me and I don't find it makes them look bad either.


That kind of thing are rubbish. No matter how skilled is the little girl, a trained boxer, who has 100 kg of weight and can throw punches of 1 ton of weight destroys her. He kills her, he break her bones. The difference is too huge. Asking yourself why all the MMA fighters or professional fighters, no matter which martial art they use, all of them NEED training in boxing for their fists.

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## JasonTodd428

> Opponents would be of similar age. But this isn`t about Damian being a midget or it being imposible. It`s about Damian`s MA pedigree *not* being more impressive or unique than what Jason has trained for, for example. Both have been trained as assasins from similarly big secret organizations and both were also trained by Batman. But one is a young adult close to Dick`s age and the other is a midget whose body is not yet fully grown.


I simply think that because Damian has had more immersive training and at a younger age then even Jason that it makes a bit of a difference in a fight even against someone who has been trained by the same people and in the same way. And I was just looking at the fight in question. Damian first kicks Jason in the face after the latter runs forward so the hit had more power to it because there was momentum involved. It's a case of Damain using his opponent's momentum against them. Jason then gets up and throws a punch at Damian who dodges it by dropping down and then he rolls underneath of Jason. Then mid roll while Jason is still recovering his footing from the punch (and we all know Jason's punches have considerable power behind them) he wraps his legs around Jason's pulls him down in such a way that he hits his head pretty hard on the ground at the very least stunning him. Seemed like standard Batman type stuff that we see all the time to me. Honestly I saw nothing specific in there that stuck out to me as Jason being one shotted nor anything that made Damian seem over powered. *shrug*

_http://***********/batman-news.com/wp-...=85&strip=info_

In the next scene Tim is not fighting at all and is instead trying to talk Damian down and he simply punches him in the face. Again I see nothing that would indicate that Tim was being one shotted there. He had let his guard down there or at least that's how it appears to me.

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## JasonTodd428

> No matter how much Damian trained, are limits he can't surpass. Weight and stature are fundamental in a fight. More weight implies more force, not only muscle, by inertia. And more stature implies long arms, more range in their punches and better defense.


That's why people who are facing a larger opponent use other tactics, no? And by using other tactics it is possible for a smaller opponent to win against a larger one. Damian is merely using Jason's power against him in that fight (see my other post for reference). There was no OP there. All I saw was pretty basic Batman type fight there. Also I think your missing my point there. It's not about "how long" or "how much" Damian's been training but "when" he started that training.






> That kind of thing are rubbish. No matter how skilled is the little girl, a trained boxer, who has 100 kg of weight and can throw punches of 1 ton of weight destroys her. He kills her, he break her bones. The difference is too huge. Asking yourself why all the MMA fighters or professional fighters, no matter which martial art they use, all of them NEED training in boxing for their fists.


If that girl goes into the fight without a strategy sure the other guy could lay them out flat but that's not really how things work. Even on the pro level two opponents presumably don't just jump in a ring and start wailing on each other with some forethought as to how they could win against the other guy. Batman and his crew don't go into a fight, at least normally, without thinking of a plan either. Unfortunately, Jason's plan seemed to involve beating Damian into submission and because of the circumstances in the background Damian couldn't allow that. Actually that entire scene made me wonder if Damian doesn't have contingency plans in place in case any of the Bats go rogue.

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## Orujo-man

> That's why people who are facing a larger opponent use other tactics, no? And by using other tactics it is possible for a smaller opponent to win against a larger one. Damian is merely using Jason's power against him in that fight (see my other post for reference). There was no OP there. All I saw was pretty basic Batman type fight there. Also I think your missing my point there. It's not about "how long" or "how much" Damian's been training but "when" he started that training.


I don't missing your point buddy, babies and younger are like sponges and they have more facilities to learn. I agree completely with you in this. Kids are amazing.

What I'm trying to expose to you is that Damian even which all his training, is still a child. And not for having a better workout or have started before to training in his life is sufficient to fill such gaps. And less against elite trained people.




> If that girl goes into the fight without a strategy sure the other guy could lay them out flat but that's not really how things work. Even on the pro level two opponents presumably don't just jump in a ring and start wailing on each other with some forethought as to how they could win against the other guy. Batman and his crew don't go into a fight, at least normally, without thinking of a plan either. Unfortunately, Jason's plan seemed to involve beating Damian into submission and because of the circumstances in the background Damian couldn't allow that. Actually that entire scene made me wonder if Damian doesn't have contingency plans in place in case any of the Bats go rogue.


Damian has an strategy to counter Jason and Tim. But do you really think that Jason and Tim don't have any strategy to counter Damian? They are experts like him. That's the mistake in Robin War. Of course Damian can surpass Jason and Tim, if he has planned a better strategy or use some tricks and gadgets. But that's the weird, Jason fell in one single blow or two. Is not logical, they are elite assassins. One think is surprise your rival with trap, tricks, or occult weapons. And another thing is enter too easily in the range of an expert assassin, and have the strength to knock out him with a single move. Is like Jason one-shot Shiva with Tynion, a complete nonsense.

And for Tim maybe is even worst. Apart for the same explanation as Jason, when Tim trusts in Damian enough let down his guard? Or better, when Tim is caught with his guard down? It's weird.

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## SpentShrimp

Yeah, there's no way Damian could really take down Jason in a full, fair fight. Jason has a much more diverse MA background, size, strength, and experience.

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## JasonTodd428

> I don't missing your point buddy, babies and younger are like sponges and they have more facilities to learn. I agree completely with you in this. Kids are amazing.


Ah, okay. Just wanted clarification there since I wasn't sure.  :Smile:  I still think that there's a lot to be said for absorbing learning as a child and that it could account for what happens in this scene. Damian was being groomed to take over a duel role as leader of the League and the next Batman by his mother after all. Just my opinion though. 




> What I'm trying to expose to you is that Damian even which all his training, is still a child. And not for having a better workout or have started before to training in his life is sufficient to fill such gaps. And less against elite trained people.


In age sure but in other ways I think he's about as a far from as standard child as you can get. He may be smaller but no less capable then the others. He's had the same training as the rest of the Bat's protege's and beyond that he's had League of Assassin training. I don't think its much of stretch to suggest that he would have ways to fill in the gap of age and ways of using that gap to his advantage. He certainly used the fact that he was smaller than Jason to his advantage in that fight.




> Damian has an strategy to counter Jason and Tim. But do you really think that Jason and Tim don't have any strategy to counter Damian's strategy? They are experts like him. That's the mistake in Robin War. Of course Damian can surpass Jason and Tim, if he has planned a better strategy or use some tricks and gadgets. But that's the weird, Jason fell in one single blow or two. Is not logical, they are elite assassins. One think is surprise your rival with trap, tricks, or occult weapons. And another thing is enter too easily in the range of an expert assassin, and have the strength to knock out him with a single move. Is like Jason one-shot Shiva with Tynion, a complete nonsense.
> 
> And for Tim maybe is even worst. Apart for the same explanation as Jason, when Tim trusts in Damian enough let down his guard? Or better, when Tim is caught with his guard down? It's weird.


The thing with Shiva was complete and utter nonsense I agree because he basically just walked over to her and took her out but I don't feel that's what happened here with Jason and Tim and here's why. 

I don't think that Jason and Tim really wanted to fight him to begin with despite him being there with the Owls. Tim, in fact, refuses to fight. I think their strategy at that point was to try and talk to him before fighting. I suspect they were slightly less on guard with him at that moment and that Damian took advantage of the situation. 

As for his fight with Damian I already explained exactly how I saw it in detail in an above post. Jason was taken out because the blow to his head when he fell was sufficient to stun him. There's even a sound effect that indicates how hard he hit the ground there. And Damian was clearly using Jason's own brawn and momentum against him there. Like I said typical Batman level type stuff. Again this is all my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine. 

As for Tim, looking at the actually panels it seems that he made the mistake of allowing Damian to get close enough to hit him and that Damian was distracting him with words again taking advantage of the situation in order to get close enough or else to mask his moves. I don't think Tim was entirely expecting that attack and again that was just typical Bat stuff.

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## Aioros22

> I simply think that because Damian has had more immersive training and at a younger age then even Jason that it makes a bit of a difference in a fight even against someone who has been trained by the same people and in the same way.


Damian is in the 10/11 age range. Jason is nearly Dick`s age who`s in the 21/22 age range. If you count the years of training each have had you _actually_ believe Damian largerly surpasses any of the others? And if it does you actually think the *quality* of said training is enough to give him the advantage to gap that plus the physical disadvantages? Nothing I recall points out that Damian`s training regime being far more sereve than any of the others or unique like Cass`s used to be. 

You brought up Cassandra, but classic Cass was considered a genius prodigy with a peculiar knack of body Reading. Damian got neither. Jason actually had the best on Cass because of that plus being physically stronger than her. 




> And I was just looking at the fight in question. Damian first kicks Jason in the face after the latter runs forward so the hit had more power to it because there was momentum involved. It's a case of Damain using his opponent's momentum against them. Jason then gets up and throws a punch at Damian who dodges it by dropping down and then he rolls underneath of Jason. Then mid roll while Jason is still recovering his footing from the punch (and we all know Jason's punches have considerable power behind them) he wraps his legs around Jason's pulls him down in such a way that he hits his head pretty hard on the ground at the very least stunning him. Seemed like _standard Batman type_ stuff that we see all the time to me. Honestly I saw nothing specific in there that stuck out to me as Jason being one shotted nor anything that made Damian seem over powered. *shrug*
> 
> _http://***********/batman-news.com/wp-...=85&strip=info_


Well, standard Batman type. Of which Jason should more than be able to counter given how much more mass he`s got for starters. This isn`t a nerve pinch trick there.

About being over powered, I didn`t said such thing. I just don`t agree with your assertion as to why Damian should be more skilled. I`d be more upset of Jay being written as a smple brawler in that issue over anything else. 




> In the next scene Tim is not fighting at all and is instead trying to talk Damian down and he simply punches him in the face. Again I see nothing that would indicate that Tim was being one shotted there. He had let his guard down there or at least that's how it appears to me.


Okay, that explains Tim but I`m especifying Jason here.

Besides if one believes he wouldn`t go hard on Damian, something he has stated outright, that takes away some of Damian`s own credit.

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## Aioros22

> I don't think that Jason and Tim really wanted to fight him to begin with despite him being there with the Owls. Tim, in fact, refuses to fight. I think their strategy at that point was to try and talk to him before fighting. I suspect they were slightly less on guard with him at that moment and that Damian took advantage of the situation. 
> 
> As for his fight with Damian I already explained exactly how I saw it in detail in an above post. Jason was taken out because the blow to his head when he fell was sufficient to stun him. There's even a sound effect that indicates how hard he hit the ground there. And Damian was clearly using Jason's own brawn and momentum against him there. Like I said typical Batman level type stuff. Again this is all my opinion. If you don't agree that's fine.


It sucks not having the books with you. But that kind of stuff should be adressed head on in the fight and not threat it like an aftertought. 

As it is, I`m not sure if he was supposed to have been stunned to begin with. It make sense but...alas.

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## JasonTodd428

> It sucks not having the books with you. But that kind of stuff should be adressed head on in the fight and not threat it like an aftertought. 
> 
> As it is, I`m not sure if he was supposed to have been stunned to begin with. It make sense but...alas.


The joy's of being a digital reader.  :Smile:  Here's a link for that particular page and it's the bottom panel. 

_http://***********/batman-news.com/wp-...=85&strip=info_

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## BooCoo

Also not being full grown, Damian is not maxed in terms of muscle and bone strength. That comes with age and no amount of training will change that. At some point, physics and common sense rule. The whole "little skinny so and so beats the tar out of big hulks" is as tired a trope as these so called woman warriors with arms like sticks and bodies like pencils.

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## oasis1313

> Yeah, there's no way Damian could really take down Jason in a full, fair fight. Jason has a much more diverse MA background, size, strength, and experience.


It'd be a tough call if both Jason and Damian were 100% into it and nobody was pulling any punches.

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## JasonTodd428

> Damian is in the 10/11 age range. Jason is nearly Dick`s age who`s in the 21/22 age range. If you count the years of training each have had *you actually believe Damian largerly surpasses any of the others? And if it does you actually think the quality of said training is enough to give him the advantage to gap that plus the physical disadvantages?* Nothing I recall points out that Damian`s training regime being far more sereve than any of the others or unique like Cass`s used to be.


Well nothing says that it wasn't either particularly the training he received at the hands of his mother and grandfather. I'm sure his training with the League wasn't a walk in the park and his own mother was looking to create the perfect heir to Ra's kingdom on top of that.

On the bolded: That's not it exactly and I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. What I'm trying to say is because he started his training at a much younger age his fighting instincts have been honed to a level that might surpass them at times and may also allow him to cross the gap provided by their experience. That's what I believe happened here. That doesn't always make him better then the others because as you say they have more actual experience but it does allow for things like this. He's going to have changed his usual tactics when fighting against his brothers because he knew they have the advantage of experience so he'd have to have some way to up the ante a bit.

Edit: Anyway I've said my piece and this is going in circles at this point.

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## JasonTodd428

> It'd be a tough call if both Jason and Damian were 100% into it and nobody was pulling any punches.


It didn't appear to me that either of them were pulling any punches and that they were both 100% into the fight.

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## Orujo-man

> Anyway I've said my piece and this is going in circles at this point.


I agree with you in this. Simply we have different point of view.




> If that girl goes into the fight without a strategy sure the other guy could lay them out flat but that's not really how things work. Even on the pro level two opponents presumably don't just jump in a ring and start wailing on each other with some forethought as to how they could win against the other guy. Batman and his crew don't go into a fight, at least normally, without thinking of a plan either. Unfortunately, Jason's plan seemed to involve beating Damian into submission and because of the circumstances in the background Damian couldn't allow that. Actually that entire scene made me wonder if Damian doesn't have contingency plans in place in case any of the Bats go rogue.


I would like to make a little parenthesis with this, out of the discussion. When you put two professional fighters or boxers in a ring, although there is a difference in height they must have a similar weight. If you put a young boy or girl in front of someone bigger and heavier the skill is not enough to make up that difference in size and especially the weight difference.

I put you an example, Tyson compared to other heavyweights was low, but had the same weight as its rivals. He is a swarmer, he falls within the range of the rival (and this it's risky, the rival has more range and you might expose to the blows of the rival) and limits the power of the blows of the contrary and applies costant pressure. In this way, his rivals don't have enought space to develop full strength because they have longer arms and the tour is longer. Besides Tyson had a lot of strength. He compensates his stature with muscle and superior fitness.

If you put a lower person and with less weight in a ring, he has everything to lose against someone taller and heavier. There is a reason for cathegories in function of the weigth in boxing or profesional fights, no matter the style. Even in kumite or taekwondo are cathegories in function of weight.

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## JasonTodd428

> I agree with you in this. Simply we have different point of view.


Hey, nothing wrong with that. It would be boring if we all saw things the same way.  :Smile: 




> I would like to make a little parenthesis with this, out of the discussion. When you put two professional fighters or boxers in a ring, although there is a difference in height they must have a similar weight. If you put a young boy or girl in front of someone bigger and heavier the skill is not enough to make up that difference in size and especially the weight difference.
> 
> I put you an example, Tyson compared to other heavyweights was low, but had the same weight as its rivals. He is a swarmer, he falls within the range of the rival (and this it's risky, the rival has more range and you might expose to the blows of the rival) and limits the power of the blows of the contrary and applies costant pressure. In this way, his rivals don't have enought space to develop full strength because they have longer arms and the tour is longer. Besides Tyson had a lot of strength. He compensates his stature with muscle and superior fitness.
> 
> If you put a lower person and with less weight in a ring, he has everything to lose against someone taller and heavier. There is a reason for cathegories in function of the weigth in boxing or profesional fights, no matter the style. Even in kumite or taekwondo are cathegories in function of weight.


Well it makes sense to do that in a professional fighting situation but because of the fictional nature of comics I don't really concern myself with the implausibility of certain feats in the real world. Over the years I've seen the various Robins take on and beat foes who are larger or stronger than they are and so at this point my mind just automatically classifies similar events as another case of that.

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## Orujo-man

> Hey, nothing wrong with that. It would be boring if we all saw things the same way.


Yeah, I'm a person who likes discussion, in a good sense.




> Well it makes sense to do that in a professional fighting situation but because of the fictional nature of comics I don't really concern myself with the implausibility of certain feats in the real world. Over the years I've seen the various Robins take on and beat foes who are larger or stronger than they are and so at this point my mind just automatically classifies similar events as another case of that.


I only wanted to share this aside the discussion. I like fights and boxing, mostly.

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## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, I'm a person who likes discussion, in a good sense.


Yeah, me too.




> I only wanted to share this aside the discussion. I like fights and boxing, mostly.


I don't care for boxing myself. I'm more of a baseball and hockey kind of guy. Out of curiosity what sort of fights do you like?

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## Orujo-man

> I don't care for boxing myself. I'm more of a baseball and hockey kind of guy. Out of curiosity what sort of fights do you like?


Box mostly. Years ago we have a regional channel in the region of my country and all the fridays they televised some fights, national or regional championship. And if I can I search for internet some combats. I don't see much in these times.

MMA and these kind of things, I'm not really a fan. Is good and espectacular, and I saw some fighters like Mirko CroCop and Emelyanenko when PRIDE exist. But I don't know, to me boxing is the best. 

Box is beautiful to me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Box mostly. Years ago we have a regional channel in the region of my country and all the fridays they televised some fights, national or regional championship. And if I can I search for internet some combats. I don't see much in these times.
> 
> MMA and these kind of things, I'm not really a fan. Is good and espectacular, and I saw some fighters like Mirko CroCop and Emelyanenko when PRIDE exist. But I don't know, to me boxing is the best. 
> 
> Box is beautiful to me.


That's cool. I like the more martial arts side myself. There's a certain beauty in watching the katas to me, especially sword katas.

----------


## Orujo-man

> That's cool. I like the more martial arts side myself. There's a certain beauty in watching the katas to me, especially sword katas.


Yeah, katas are beautiful too. Apart I saw some videos in youtube of combats of free kumite, some of them very good.

----------


## KrustyKid

I'm curious JasonTodd428, where do you think Damian falls in skill? Do you believe he is better than Tim, Jason, and Dick as a fighter? Clearly he's under Bruce and Cass, but how do you see him as a fighter when compared to the others? Do you believe he could take out Dick in similar fashion to what we saw with Tim and Jason?

----------


## Aahz

What makes the We are Robin Fight even dumber is that on the next pages Duke is suddenly able to hold his own against Damian, and Duke is no where near the levels of Jason and Tim when it comes to fighting.

And seriously not even Batman is usually able to take Jason down that easily.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm curious JasonTodd428, where do you think Damian falls in skill? Do you believe he is better than Tim, Jason, and Dick as a fighter? Clearly he's under Bruce and Cass, but how do you see him as a fighter when compared to the others? Do you believe he could take out Dick in similar fashion to what we saw with Tim and Jason?


Forgive me here but some of this is going to be me thinking things through "out loud" as it were so fair warning. Hopefully it doesn't bore you to tears. Also for purposes of this I'm not going to bother with whether its plausible from a real life standpoint or whether Damian was OP or one shotting anyone. 

I believe him to be equal to them in terms of proficiency and skill levels. He may not have the strength or experience of the older Robins but I would venture to guess he's as well trained as they are even being the age he is. Also since he started much earlier then they did his fighting moves may be a bit more...fluid(?) and possibly a bit faster than the others with the possible exception of Dick, who is a trained acrobat. 

I'm not sure what his weapon of choice is unless its swords, which would make a lot of sense given who his grandfather is, nor what his exact fighting style is but I would expect him to have more proficiency at those then the others because of concentrated and focused training in those areas. Each of them seems to show the same with regard to their own favored weapons and fighting styles so that seems a logical conclusion to make.

Of all the Robin's he's had the most exposure to Dick's fighting style from being partners with him but we also know that Dick changes it up per Grayson so that might make it harder for Damian to read him. Damian though seems to have taken Jason's and Tim's strengths and turned them against them in that fight so its likely he would try to do so with Dick as well. I'm going to say that given the right set of circumstances he probably could beat even Dick. If, for example, he could hamper Dick's movements in some way or if he could get Dick to either drop his guard or allow him to get in close then I think he could manage it. He basically did the same with Jason and Tim only obviously he used different tactics individually suited to them. I'm not however certain that he would have needed to actually land a blow with Dick to take him out of the fight here.

----------


## Aahz

> I believe him to be equal to them in terms of proficiency and skill levels. He may not have the strength or experience of the older Robins but I would venture to guess he's as well trained as they are even being the age he is. Also since he started much earlier then they did his fighting moves may be a bit more...fluid(?) and possibly a bit faster than the others with the possible exception of Dick, who is a trained acrobat.


Since he is artificially aged and was trained in a lot of other stuff than just martial arts, I don't think that he should be already that good.

Btw. a lot of the top dc martial artists like Batman, Bronze Tiger and Richard Dragon started their training at a comparably high age, and Jason was at least occasionally shown and said to have talent for martial arts (even if that is quite inconstitent).

----------


## Rise

> https://www.change.org/p/warner-brot...od-in-the-dceu
> 
> So...this is a thing...?




JUST!! DO IT!!

----------


## REAL

Rise, just..

----------


## Rise

But Jaaan....  :Frown:

----------


## REAL

I can't believe that they actually accomplished their goal. 

Over 2.500 supporters. Just why?

----------


## Orujo-man

> JUST!! DO IT!!

----------


## Rise

Trolling most likely. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they were serious tho. 

Nothing related to Jason suprise anymore.

----------


## Rise

Orujo-man, you know deep down you want it  :Cool:

----------


## Rise

......double post.

----------


## REAL

Your Internet connection still bad?

----------


## Rise

Unfortunately  :Frown: 

Btw, what was your pick this week? Was Batman worth the read?

----------


## REAL

Nah, it's honestly not worth it. Superman, Green Lanterns and Trinity were really fun this week.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Orujo-man, you know deep down you want it


Nope, not even for all the gold in the world. But it's funny. :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

Talking about Trinity... 



Would you like it if DC did a crossover between these books?

----------


## REAL

It would be the only crossover I would look forward to.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Talking about Trinity...What do you think about DC doing crossover between these books?


I'm not sure. For one side is interesting, but for other I know DC. If that happens I'm pretty sure they make their 3 golden apples shine in detriment for the others.

I prefer see the Outlaws like outcast, marginalized from the rest of superheroes, but ultimately do what they have to do unlike the others.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Rise, just..


Um...you do know that Shia is a great actor....right?

Antics aside, he can do anything he wants, acting wise.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Talking about Trinity... 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you like it if DC did a crossover between these books?


No.

I'd only want Trinity and RHatO to crossover if Jason, and Bruce's, relationship soured at some point due to clashing of ideals regarding Jason's current mission. Why call it the Dark Trinity, if they're going to be all buddy buddy, and doing everything the same way? If there's already some conflicting ideals, it'd make them eventually working together (or not) more interesting. Similar to how right now Kate and Bruce think that Papa Kane is crazy, but we know that he's right, and they'll all be working together in some League of Shadows Bat books event.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'm not sure. For one side is interesting, but for other I know DC. If that happens I'm pretty sure they make their 3 golden apples shine in detriment for the others.
> 
> I prefer see the Outlaws like outcast, marginalized from the rest of superheroes, but ultimately do what they have to do unlike the others.


Basically this, yo.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Since he is artificially aged and was trained in a lot of other stuff than just martial arts, I don't think that he should be already that good.


That artificially aged BS was a N52 contrivance to explain how Damian could be ten when Batman had only been around five years. I'm not sure that particular aspect of his origin is still in play with Rebirth and I'm assuming here that its not. It was a clumsy explaination for his existence anyway.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> That artificially aged BS was a N52 contrivance to explain how Damian could be ten when Batman had only been around five years. I'm not sure that particular aspect of his origin is still in play with Rebirth and I'm assuming here that its not. It was a clumsy explaination for his existence anyway.


Why would it not, if a lot of other Nu52 elements are in play? Unlike with Jason, they've not gone out of their way to reestablish the pre-Flashpoint first meeting.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Speaking of Rebirth changing things...

I think that Jason's history is:

1) RHatO Rebirth flashbacks
2) Nu52 Secret Origins
3) An amalgamation of his All Cast training, and the Lost Days stuff
4) Under the Red Hood
5) RHatO (Nu52)
6) Now.

I'm assuming that BotC never happened, same with the pre-Nu52 Nightwing stuff, the Morrison stuff, and that time he messed with Green Arrow and Mia.

If all that happened, including UtRH, I don't see how he'd been on any kind of good standing with the Bat Family.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Speaking of Rebirth changing things...
> 
> I think that Jason's history is:
> 
> 1) RHatO Rebirth flashbacks
> 2) Nu52 Secret Origins
> 3) An amalgamation of his All Cast training, and the Lost Days stuff
> 4) Under the Red Hood
> 5) RHatO (Nu52)
> ...


I think BotC still happens, at least in New52. Maybe I was worng but I think Grayson did a little reference in Batman Inc. when Damian shouts Jason because he wants to make Bat-Steaks for Bat-Cow. And Jason coments in RHATO he was bad with Tim Drake.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Why would it not, if a lot of other Nu52 elements are in play? Unlike with Jason, they've not gone out of their way to reestablish the pre-Flashpoint first meeting.


Some things are still in play but not everything or rather not everything will be by the end of Rebirth I don't think. Also that particular origin change has specifically to do with the five year timeline nonsense that started off the N52 and can therefore be tied to the ten years stolen by Dr Manhatten. Damian has yet to be featured heavily in Rebirth so of course they haven't delved into his Rebirth origin yet.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I think BotC still happens, at least in New52. Maybe I was worng but I think Grayson did a little reference in Batman Inc. when Damian shouts Jason because he wants to make Bat-Steaks for Bat-Cow. And Jason coments in RHATO he was bad with Tim Drake.


Him being bad with Drake might be he fact that Drake was present for UtRH this time, based off the flashback, maybe?

Also, bad is an understatement; he nearly killed Tim in BotC. Why would they be on good terms after that?

----------


## Orujo-man

> Him being bad with Drake might be he fact that Drake was present for UtRH this time, based off the flashback, maybe?
> 
> Also, bad is an understatement; he nearly killed Tim in BotC. Why would they be on good terms after that?


Time heals everything, I guess. And Tim is more open minded.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

BftC is definitely not canon anymore. Morrison onlu ever referenced his own story with Jason on Batman Inc.

----------


## Aahz

> That artificially aged BS was a N52 contrivance to explain how Damian could be ten when Batman had only been around five years. I'm not sure that particular aspect of his origin is still in play with Rebirth and I'm assuming here that its not. It was a clumsy explaination for his existence anyway.


They aged Damian up to 13 even with a restored timeline that will be hard without artificial ageing. And at the moment the missing years are not back and Bruce is still supposed to be in his early 30.

And if you bring the pre crisis continuity back all the other Robins also start their training earlier. And like I said unlike Cass, Damian wasn't trained in just martial arts.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They aged Damian up to 13 even with a restored timeline that will be hard without artificial ageing. And at the moment the missing years are not back and Bruce is still supposed to be in his early 30.
> 
> And if you bring the pre crisis continuity back all the other Robins also start their training earlier. And like I said unlike Cass, Damian wasn't trained in just martial arts.


There is no indication in that panel of the Rebirth special that artificial aging had anything to do the fact that Damian's birthday cake said 13 on it. This is just speculation mind you but I think Damian is actually supposed to be 13 and that Dr Manhattan stole time from him just as he did from everyone else.

----------


## Aahz

> There is no indication in that panel of the Rebirth special that artificial aging had anything to do the fact that Damian's birthday cake said 13 on it. This is just speculation mind you but I think Damian is actually supposed to be 13 and that Dr Manhattan stole time from him just as he did from everyone else.


The new 5 year timeline is still in effect in the current titles, so Damian being naturally 13 is impossible.

And since his artificial ageing with the chaos shard played a major role in his resurrection, it is hard to completely remove it from the continuity.


But the that becomes slowly of topic. The point is that Jasons appearance in Robin War wasn't particulary great (even if we ignore the fight against Damian), the characterisation was of and he didn't really contributed anything to the story. And the writers were imo more pushing for him and Tim to be the second rate Robins than showing them to be one same level as Dick and Damian. His other King written appearance in Grayson 12 was also not great therefore I'm not really excited if King is going to write him like this again.

----------


## Rise

Awww, you guys are such Debbie Downers  :Frown: 

I would love to have a Trinity books crossover.

----------


## Rise

> It would be the only crossover I would look forward to.


Jan, love the idea! Wow  :EEK!:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The new 5 year timeline is still in effect in the current titles, so Damian being naturally 13 is impossible.
> 
> And since his artificial ageing with the chaos shard played a major role in his resurrection, it is hard to completely remove it from the continuity.
> 
> 
> But the that becomes slowly of topic. The point is that Jasons appearance in Robin War wasn't particulary great (even if we ignore the fight against Damian), the characterisation was of and he didn't really contributed anything to the story. And the writers were imo more pushing for him and Tim to be the second rate Robins than showing them to be one same level as Dick and Damian. His other King written appearance in Grayson 12 was also not great therefore I'm not really excited if King is going to write him like this again.


My point is how long will that remain in effect and is that particular panel yet another instance of a character "remembering" something about their pasts that doesn't jive with what was established as being events in the N52? Jason remembers stealing the tires on the Batmobile when he didn't before. Tim was kidnapped by Oz because he supposedly was starting to remember things and  his being with Steph was a sign of that (although Tynion never showed us that he was directly in any way). Other characters are "remembering" things as well that seemingly never happened in the N52 timeline I'm speculating that this particular panel is yet another instance of that. I'm not claiming to be right but the possibility exists. 

As for the rest we'll have to see. The artificial aging was put in place because of that 5 year timeline so things may very well change once the overarching Rebirth story finishes. Also the simplest way to "remove" something from continuity is to simply never reference it again directly and to keep the details surrounding it vague when it is referenced. It's not something that would require much work at all. 

On Topic: In any case I like Tom King's work on Batman and I'm more than willing to see what he does with Jason here.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Awww, you guys are such Debbie Downers 
> 
> I would love to have a Trinity books crossover.


I'd like to see one as well. It might be fun to see what happens when they meet.

----------


## RedQueen

Just curious, but what is everyone's thoughts toward Jason's broship with Tim? I know on tumblr a lot of people ship them romantically and I know some don't mind their friendship. 

Personally, I don't like them being super pals. The only aspect of their relationship I like is that it shows that Jason has come to terms with Tim's place as Robin and that particular element of Jason's arc has been resolved.

I think the relationship showed some positive growth for Jason, but I don't like that it was Tim. I'd rather a rehash or a reintroduction of Scarlet in that aspect beyond the Outlaw friendships.

I don't like him being super buddies with the Robins, personally because his characterization gets shafted in team ups.

Also I think shippers have completely ruined every bonding moment they've ever had for me, because Tim I think is 16 and Jason is older. I know not super older but still enough for a squeak factor and for me to be efficiently creeped the hell out.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Awww, you guys are such Debbie Downers 
> 
> I would love to have a Trinity books crossover.


I am suspicious about everything, is in my nature.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Forgive me here but some of this is going to be me thinking things through "out loud" as it were so fair warning. Hopefully it doesn't bore you to tears. Also for purposes of this I'm not going to bother with whether its plausible from a real life standpoint or whether Damian was OP or one shotting anyone. 
> 
> I believe him to be equal to them in terms of proficiency and skill levels. He may not have the strength or experience of the older Robins but I would venture to guess he's as well trained as they are even being the age he is. Also since he started much earlier then they did his fighting moves may be a bit more...fluid(?) and possibly a bit faster than the others with the possible exception of Dick, who is a trained acrobat. 
> 
> I'm not sure what his weapon of choice is unless its swords, which would make a lot of sense given who his grandfather is, nor what his exact fighting style is but I would expect him to have more proficiency at those then the others because of concentrated and focused training in those areas. Each of them seems to show the same with regard to their own favored weapons and fighting styles so that seems a logical conclusion to make.
> 
> Of all the Robin's he's had the most exposure to Dick's fighting style from being partners with him but we also know that Dick changes it up per Grayson so that might make it harder for Damian to read him. Damian though seems to have taken Jason's and Tim's strengths and turned them against them in that fight so its likely he would try to do so with Dick as well. I'm going to say that given the right set of circumstances he probably could beat even Dick. If, for example, he could hamper Dick's movements in some way or if he could get Dick to either drop his guard or allow him to get in close then I think he could manage it. He basically did the same with Jason and Tim only obviously he used different tactics individually suited to them. I'm not however certain that he would have needed to actually land a blow with Dick to take him out of the fight here.


Good response. Though in the case of Dick I'd imagine he'd adapt to whatever Damian attempted to do against him much faster than any of the other two.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Good response. Though in the case of Dick I'd imagine he'd adapt to whatever Damian attempted to do against him much faster than any of the other two.


That is why I said "right set of circumstances" there and that would be my guess as well. An actual no holds barred fight between the two could be very interesting to see and now I sort of want to see one. It might tell us a lot about where Damian actually ranks among the Robin's beyond fan speculation. I've always been curious about that. 

@RedQueen- I don't mind their brosbip mainly because it shows that Jason has dealt with his issues with Tim and that he's moved beyond seeing Time as someone who usurps his place. I think that's a huge step forward for Jason's character.

----------


## godisawesome

> Just curious, but what is everyone's thoughts toward Jason's broship with Tim? I know on tumblr a lot of people ship them romantically and I know some don't mind their friendship. 
> 
> Personally, I don't like them being super pals. The only aspect of their relationship I like is that it shows that Jason has come to terms with Tim's place as Robin and that particular element of Jason's arc has been resolved.
> 
> I think the relationship showed some positive growth for Jason, but I don't like that it was Tim. I'd rather a rehash or a reintroduction of Scarlet in that aspect beyond the Outlaw friendships.
> 
> I don't like him being super buddies with the Robins, personally because his characterization gets shafted in team ups.
> 
> Also I think shippers have completely ruined every bonding moment they've ever had for me, because Tim I think is 16 and Jason is older. I know not super older but still enough for a squeak factor and for me to be efficiently creeped the hell out.


I definetly think it worked out better for Jason than Tim; Lobdell seemed to always grasp Jason better as a character, and never quite got a hold on Tim's personality. For Jason, it demonstrated the direction he was taking Jason, as a more mellow character still built on the same foundations. For Tim, it kind of felt like an arbitrary friendship based mostly off the fact that Lobdell was in charge of both characters.

I honestly think there should still be a history of antagonism and a later normalization of a brotherly relationship. I think the portrayal in Young Justice Abridged is the best version Ove seen trying to make them have any positive relationship. And that's just a tragi-comic last will from Jason.

----------


## Aahz

> Speaking of Rebirth changing things...
> 
> I think that Jason's history is:
> 
> 1) RHatO Rebirth flashbacks
> 2) Nu52 Secret Origins
> 3) An amalgamation of his All Cast training, and the Lost Days stuff
> 4) Under the Red Hood
> 5) RHatO (Nu52)
> ...


It is pretty save to assume that everything that happened between UTRH and the end of Countdown is not continuity including his appearances in  Green Arrow, Outsiders, Nightwing and his attack on Tim in Titans Tower (even if I would assume that a similar attack happened) simply because many of the charters and teams in that stories weren't active at this time in the new 52 timeline.

The only the post countdown stories could be canon, but since they are all horribly out of character and would make it very unlikely that Jason and the rest of the Batfamily would interact in the way they are now, I hope they aren't.

----------


## Aahz

> I definetly think it worked out better for Jason than Tim; Lobdell seemed to always grasp Jason better as a character, and never quite got a hold on Tim's personality. For Jason, it demonstrated the direction he was taking Jason, as a more mellow character still built on the same foundations. For Tim, it kind of felt like an arbitrary friendship based mostly off the fact that Lobdell was in charge of both characters.


It is hard to say. 
In most Lobdell written issues they are iirc only talking and not really working together, and they don't really act like bros. For me it came more of as if Tim wants a more brotherly relation ship with Jason and Jason isn't against it. (Btw. the issues where Tim says that Jason is the closed thing to brother for him is not written by Lobdell.)

Unfortunatly they have much more interaction in the Eternals where Jason is imo mishandled,  I really can't stand their B&RE subplot where they imo turned Jason in Tims sidekick and comic relief.

----------


## madrox83

I like Jason and Tim getting along and in the New 52 it makes sense they were never too antagonistic since Tim always went by Red Robin and never took Jason's title.

The scene where they ate breakfast was good and OT should be interesting to see how Jason reacts to the events of Detective and whether he has it out with Bruce.

----------


## Alycat

> Just curious, but what is everyone's thoughts toward Jason's broship with Tim? I know on tumblr a lot of people ship them romantically and I know some don't mind their friendship. 
> 
> Personally, I don't like them being super pals. The only aspect of their relationship I like is that it shows that Jason has come to terms with Tim's place as Robin and that particular element of Jason's arc has been resolved.
> 
> I think the relationship showed some positive growth for Jason, but I don't like that it was Tim. I'd rather a rehash or a reintroduction of Scarlet in that aspect beyond the Outlaw friendships.
> 
> I don't like him being super buddies with the Robins, personally because his characterization gets shafted in team ups.
> 
> Also I think shippers have completely ruined every bonding moment they've ever had for me, because Tim I think is 16 and Jason is older. I know not super older but still enough for a squeak factor and for me to be efficiently creeped the hell out.


Eh the entire shipping aspects of the Batfamily are left better not talked about. I don't mind Tim and Jason being friends or friendlier than they were. It's good for Jason to move past that. I just wish it was shown as a gradual change. I also hate that it came at the expense at Tim and Dicks relationship. Jason being the only Tim thought of as a brother is dumb. Maybe it's a result of stupid time shenanigans that Rebirth should fix but it's still annoying that writers have drawn some strange line with Tim/Jason and Dick and Damian.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> It'd be a tough call if both Jason and Damian were 100% into it and nobody was pulling any punches.


Not really. Jason is a brute compared to the kid.

----------


## Aahz

> Not really. Jason is a brute compared to the kid.


Jasons fighting skills (or skills in general) vary quite drastically, sometimes he is a martial arts prodigy sometimes he seems to be just a brawler. In the cross over events he unfortunately usually more on the lower end of the scale. It is really hard to say where he fits in  in comparison to the other Batfamily members.

And when I look at Jasons narration I have sometimes the impression that he underestimates his own skills.

----------


## Orujo-man

> And when I look at Jasons narration I have sometimes the impression that he underestimates his own skills.


Jason underestimates his own skills. He has a poor view of himself. At first view maybe he is seem arrogant but inside it's the opposite.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jasons fighting skills (or skills in general) vary quite drastically, sometimes he is a martial arts prodigy sometimes he seems to be just a brawler. In the cross over events he unfortunately usually more on the lower end of the scale. It is really hard to say where he fits in  in comparison to the other Batfamily members.
> 
> And when I look at Jasons narration I have sometimes the impression that he underestimates his own skills.


I think he does underestimate himself, and the sometimes the writing makes him look to be just a brawler, but he isn't. He may just be a brawler in some cases because of his rage taking over, but he has that under control now. I'd say he's the best fighter of all the Robins when he's able to keep his cool.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I agree that Jason definitely underestimates himself and that at this point its been hard wired into him. I think he is constantly comparing himself to the other Robins in the back of his mind and feels that he is lacking in skill despite having been trained by Batman and others. He does that with other heroes to. He even tells Roy at the end of RH/A that he's a better hero than he will ever be.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I agree that Jason definitely underestimates himself and that at this point its been hard wired into him. I think he is constantly comparing himself to the other Robins in the back of his mind and feels that he is lacking in skill despite having been trained by Batman and others. He does that with other heroes to. He even tells Roy at the end of RH/A that he's a better hero than he will ever be.



Yeah, you're right. The last issue of RH/A clearly reflects the inferiority complex of Jason. Like a curiosity, apart from their constant comparisons with the rest of the Robins (Dick, mostly), I think one of the characters where this was best reflected (he has an inferiority complex in all, not only in his own skills) is in his relationship with Isabel, in RHATO. I put some examples:

- Jason was surprised when she gave him her number, he doesn't view himself as physically atractive.

- Jason doubts call her the first time, although this is understandable given his lifestyle. However in the dialogues it can be seen that he's considered himself unworthy given his life and everyone who has killed.

- During their date, after they have been teleported to the ship of Starfire, Roy makes a comment saying that Jason was lying to her for his fear that she would not accept him. Not only to protect her, or to keep his secret, because he has a bad view of himself.

- After spending the night with her, when he found Isabel with overdose, the first thing Jason did was blames himself. He even makes a simile with his mother's death, who died from overdoses and whose death also blames himself.

- And finally, when Isabel breaks with Jason, he didn't protest or tried to convince her of the contrary, because deep down knows is better for her stay away from him. To be fair this is more a logical decision.

Only a curious observations about Jason and his relationships.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

But see, Jason's conflict regarding Isabel is not because he feels inferior but because she is a civilian. Deep down Jason wishes to have a normal life but due his death and resurrection he feels he _can't_

Just see how there wasn't hesitation when Jason talked about Rose or Essence and contrast it to the way he interacted with Isabel and Gabbi.

----------


## Orujo-man

> But see, Jason's conflict regarding Isabel is not because he feels inferior but because she is a civilian. Deep down Jason wishes to have a normal life but due his death and resurrection he feels he _can't_
> 
> Just see how there wasn't hesitation when Jason talked about Rose or Essence and contrast it to the way he interacted with Isabel and Gabbi.


I don't know maybe you're right. The problem is that Rose and Essence are too opposite of Isabel and Gabbi.

Rose tries to kill them (she said she was being polite) and Jason describes her as "a professional bad ass". Aparte she's Slade daughter. She has a master in disfunctional families and daddy issues. And Jason stabbed Essence because he thought she betrayed to him and the All-Caste. Banished by her mother and she's the black sheep of the All-Caste at their moment.

In some aspects they're similar in certain way to Jason.

Anyway I keep thinking Jason has a inferiority complex. Not only his own skill, in all the aspects. Is part of his personality, and is normal given his life. Born and raised in a disfunctional family, his father was a drunk criminal and his mother was a junkie who prefered being in a trip all the day instead of care him. Then he lived in the streets and when he was Robin, he was always being compared with Dick. And finally his death and resurrection.

He has all the tickets to develop an inferiority complex in his life. I don't think at this moment he wishes a normal life. Of course, he wishes that before, but not now. In his conversation with Gabbi I think he clearly accepts the kind of life he lives. He's always Red Hood without a double life, unlike the others of the family.

This is only my opinion.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't know maybe you're right. The problem is that Rose and Essence are too opposite of Isabel and Gabbi.
> 
> Rose tries to kill them (she said she was being polite) and Jason describes her as "a professional bad ass". Aparte she's Slade daughter. She has a master in disfunctional families and daddy issues. And Jason stabbed Essence because he thought she betrayed to him and the All-Caste. Banished by her mother and she's the black sheep of the All-Caste at their moment.
> 
> *In some aspects they're similar in certain way to Jason.*


Exactly. This why Jason has no problems forming a bond with them, because he _knows_ they will able to take care of themselves when it finally hits the fan.  Isabel and Gabbi on the other hand are regular people and for Jason, people like them don't deserve/need to be dragged into the dangerous lifestyle inherent of a "superhero"





> Anyway I keep thinking Jason has a inferiority complex. Not only his own skill, in all the aspects. Is part of his personality, and is normal given his life. Born and raised in a disfunctional family, his father was a drunk criminal and his mother was a junkie who prefered being in a trip all the day instead of care him. Then he lived in the streets and when he was Robin, he was always being compared with Dick. And finally his death and resurrection.
> 
> He has all the tickets to develop an inferiority complex in his life. I don't think at this moment he wishes a normal life. Of course, he wishes that before, but not now. In his conversation with Gabbi I think he clearly accepts the kind of life he lives. He's always Red Hood without a double life, unlike the others of the family.
> 
> This is only my opinion.


I disagree. At least under Lobdell's pen Jason has been depicted to be quite confident as person. And if we're talking of combat prowess, Jason is at times _too_ confident on his own skills. This is what has allowed many of his foes to get the drop on him like the Untitled on Colorado or Crux.

And deep down, Jason still wishes he could have a normal life. To walk away from all of it and maybe settle down with a nice girl but his sense of duty, is too strong and he knows that he can't walk away from it as long there's something he can do to help everyone. THAT is what he came to terms with during RH/A.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Exactly. This why Jason has no problems forming a bond with them, because he _knows_ they will able to take care of themselves when it finally hits the fan.  Isabel and Gabbi on the other hand are regular people and for Jason, people like them don't deserve/need to be dragged into the dangerous lifestyle inherent of a "superhero"


When I pointed out that were similar, it was more affinity than by ability to defend itself. In RHATO and RH/A Jason always surrounds himself with people similar to him. Roy, Starfire, Rose, Essence, even JD ... and now Artemis and Bizarro.

They are outcasts of society and the community of superheroes, Jason considers them to their peers, they all have problems or have done questionable things. They are marginalized. I think that's why he feels comfortable around them.





> I disagree. At least under Lobdell's pen Jason has been depicted to be quite confident as person. And if we're talking of combat prowess, Jason is at times _too_ confident on his own skills. This is what has allowed many of his foes to get the drop on him like the Untitled on Colorado or Crux.
> 
> And deep down, Jason still wishes he could have a normal life. To walk away from all of it and maybe settle down with a nice girl but his sense of duty, is too strong and he knows that he can't walk away from it as long there's something he can do to help everyone. THAT is what he came to terms with during RH/A.


I don't agree with you. I always saw Lodbell expose this inferiority complex in different manners. Isabel, his comparisions with Dick in the new RHATO, his thoughts with Tim in RH/A about they been second and third Robin, never the first. And the final of RH/A, when he leaves from Roy because he feels unworthy and he knows that Roy always wants to be a hero. Be better person. He abandons Roy because Jason feels that Roy deserves something better than him. Inferiority complex again.

I think no matter if Jason wants a normal life, he has accepted that there will never have it (Or at least, that was I understood for his thoughts during his conversation with Gabbi). He's a warrior, he has been fighting all his life. The fight is part of him, regardless of whether he think it is their duty or not. Even if he meet a girl and settle it will not last long. Always keep fighting. It's his nature, his instinct was to fight. That never goes away. 

Deathstroke is the perfect example for this, even if he's so different of Jason. Or Batman if you ask me. They never will stop to fight.

Of course, my personal view about him.

----------


## oasis1313

I can see Jason as having something of a chip on his shoulder.  But he wouldn't be leaping into a hail of bullets with his own guns blazing if he wasn't confident of his skill.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I can see Jason as having something of a chip on his shoulder.  But he wouldn't be leaping into a hail of bullets with his own guns blazing if he wasn't confident of his skill.


Never I said the contrary. I mean, Jason have issues but it's not a coward or useless without any confidence. Have some complex doesn't make him worse, contrary, it makes him more human.

In fact it's more meritorious, at least for me. With all the thing happened to him, with all the issues he has, the guy go ahead, fighting. That's have a good pair of balls.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I can see Jason as having something of a chip on his shoulder.  But he wouldn't be leaping into a hail of bullets with his own guns blazing if he wasn't confident of his skill.


Having confidence in his skills doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't compare himself to others though. There are skills that I have which I'm pretty confident in yet I still compare myself to others with the same skill set. In Jason's case I could see him doing the same and feeling that he doesn't measure up especially to Dick, even though he clearly does. Its a question of how he perceives himself rather than how we, as readers, perceive him. He has a chip on his shoulder but in real life I've found that a lot of people who do are hiding their insecurities behind it.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Having confidence in his skills doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't compare himself to others though. There are skills that I have which I'm pretty confident in yet I still compare myself to others with the same skill set. In Jason's case I could see him doing the same and feeling that he doesn't measure up especially to Dick, even though he clearly does. Its a question of how he perceives himself rather than how we, as readers, perceive him. He has a chip on his shoulder but in real life I've found that a lot of people who do are hiding their insecurities behind it.


Exactly. That's what I like about the character, it feels more natural. Everyone has doubts, fears, insecurities in more or minor grade, is part of human nature. And the people don't cease to fight, work, study or living day to day. 

I feel perfect characters boring for this, they are too much idealized. I prefer characters who make mistakes and they have defects, fears, complex, etc. Because when they progress or achieves one thing, the sensation of merit is bigger for the reader. Or that's my opinion.

----------


## Rise

I strongly disagree with you guys. Jason has some insecurity issues (and most, if not all are related to Batman), but it's not to the extent you guys made it out to be. He actually become quite confident in his ability since he returned. 

And Orujo-man, Jason wasn't surprised that Isabel was interested in him. He was just suprised by her boldness (and seriously what's up with your avatars??  :Big Grin: )

----------


## Orujo-man

> And Orujo-man, Jason wasn't surprised that Isabel was interested in him. He was just suprised by her boldness (and seriously what's up with your avatars?? )


What's wrong with my avatar? It's a beautiful cow. Tudanca race, native of my land.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What's wrong with my avatar? It's a beautiful cow. Tudanca race, native of my land.


I've no idea. I like your avatar.  :Smile:

----------


## Orujo-man

> I've no idea. I like your avatar.


Thanks buddy :Big Grin:  That's was a great discussion isn't? I enjoyed a lot.

I can't wait to see more interactions with Artemis and Bizarro. Although Lobdell has had much criticism in the past I think he is doing very well at now. And the series is selling very well. Good times for Red Hood.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thanks buddy That's was a great discussion isn't? I enjoyed a lot.
> 
> I can't wait to see more interactions with Artemis and Bizarro. Although Lobdell has had much criticism in the past I think he is doing very well at now. And the series is selling very well. Good times for Red Hood.


Very good times for Red Hood. I'm looking forward to seeing how Bizzaro fits into the team and to more interactions between Jason and Artemis. Lobdell is doing well with this books and I'm glad to see it selling so well.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Very good times for Red Hood. I'm looking forward to seeing how Bizzaro fits into the team and to more interactions between Jason and Artemis. Lobdell is doing well with this books and I'm glad to see it selling so well.


What do you think about at this moment Roy don't mention nothing of Jason in the Titans and Starfire only talked about Dick?

It's a little sad.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> What do you think about at this moment Roy don't mention nothing of Jason in the Titans and Starfire only talked about Dick?
> 
> It's a little sad.


I chalk that up to "different writer syndrome", like the one that's largely afflicting Wonder Woman.

Just like she barely to never mentions her love for Clark anymore, to the point where one of her appearances has her all but "give up" to old-universe Lois (she barely grieved at all!), the person writing Roy in Titans doesn't mention his past forays with Jason and Starfire, nor the fact that he's been with Jason for a very good while now. Instead, they focus on the friendships of the current cast, including Dick.

For someone who's followed them through the first RHATO and RH/A, this is, as one might imagine, super frustrating.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I find it a bit frustrating as well. To me Starfire turned into a completely different character once her solo happened and personally I don't care for the "naïve alien girl whose confused by even the most basic of things" take they've been doing recently. She's much more than that and frankly I want to see a more balanced portrayal of her character. She was the captain of her own ship so I hate that she's been reduced to an airhead. I don't really like how Roy is being portrayed of late either but it doesn't annoy me nearly as much. I'm also not really expecting much acknowledgement of their partnership with each other on a romantic level nor their partnership with Jason in other books. I suspect the only place it might come up is in Lobdell's book.

----------


## Rise

Why I have feeling that I have been truned into a bad guy here...

----------


## REAL

Because they did turn you into a bad guy.

----------


## Rise

Oh, but I didn't mean any offense  :Frown: .  I was just kidding with him about his choice of the avatar*s*.

----------


## REAL

I know you didn't and don't mind him. Some people just easily offended and take things the wrong way. 

Your intention wasn't to offend and that's what matters. So, don't feel bad about it. 

And btw, let's just go out of here because I find some discoveries that you would definitely like.

----------


## Rise

Jan, you are truly the best. And let's  :Smile:  

Orujo-man, I didn't mean any offense and I'm sorry if it comes out that way.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Why I have feeling that I have been truned into a bad guy here...


You're not the bad guy here. Sorry if I made you feel like you were.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Jan, you are truly the best. And let's  
> 
> Orujo-man, I didn't mean any offense and I'm sorry if it comes out that way.


What? No, no Rise you don't did anything wrong, you don't need to apologizes.

I suppose that this need a full explanation. I'm not an english speaker, you see, and sometimes I don't expressed myself very well, and maybe I look like so directly or even rude. I'm afraid for this type of misunderstood. 

Look Rise, I'm a person who loves the jokes, always smiling and joking. So don't worry, you don't irritated me in any way.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I chalk that up to "different writer syndrome", like the one that's largely afflicting Wonder Woman.
> 
> Just like she barely to never mentions her love for Clark anymore, to the point where one of her appearances has her all but "give up" to old-universe Lois (she barely grieved at all!), the person writing Roy in Titans doesn't mention his past forays with Jason and Starfire, nor the fact that he's been with Jason for a very good while now. Instead, they focus on the friendships of the current cast, including Dick.
> 
> For someone who's followed them through the first RHATO and RH/A, this is, as one might imagine, super frustrating.


I don't say frustrating to me, but a little disappointment. I understand the decision of the editorial of backing of the roots but It's too weird, you know. Dick is the older brother of Jason, even with their relation it's strange he doesn't ask any question about him. 

Or the elephant in the room they have with Starfire. I want to believe these kind of things happens out the scene.




> I find it a bit frustrating as well. To me Starfire turned into a completely different character once her solo happened and personally I don't care for the "naïve alien girl whose confused by even the most basic of things" take they've been doing recently. She's much more than that and frankly I want to see a more balanced portrayal of her character. She was the captain of her own ship so I hate that she's been reduced to an airhead. I don't really like how Roy is being portrayed of late either but it doesn't annoy me nearly as much. I'm also not really expecting much acknowledgement of their partnership with each other on a romantic level nor their partnership with Jason in other books. I suspect the only place it might come up is in Lobdell's book.


Yeah the theme of Starfire confuses me for the same reasons. Apart for the things you mentioned, I don't think it is a good idea the portrayal of "she's only an ex of Dick". I don't mind that, it's a strong part of her life, but hey, add other things, like her time with the Outlaws or her friends in the solo book. It's sad for her being only "the ex of X-person"

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Yeah, I like Connor and her husband, but they screwed up on Starfire. Tho, to be fair, I don't think that the DC editors had anyone, but Pak, acknowledge RHatO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Goddamn, Scalera continues knocking out of the park with his variants



https://www.instagram.com/p/BK8KbNfgAxc/

----------


## Orujo-man

Nice and interesting cover. I like the concept and the easter eggs. Even there is a poster with Henry Cavill.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Goddamn, Scalera continues knocking out of the park with his variants
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BK8KbNfgAxc/


Masterful cover work, right there. I can only assume this hints at a more self-aware, or cognisant, Bizarro than we're used to. Tired of the stupid Bizarro, so I'm really pushing for the Thing, or Mr. Fixit, treatment for him.

Also, despite me really enjoying the book, right now, assuming Lobdell left, how would you guys feel about Phil Hester taking over. Hester has always been good, but after reading his Deathstroke Annual #2, I feel he could grasp Jason's voice, and the ambiguous nature of a "Dark Trinity" very well.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Goddamn, Scalera continues knocking out of the park with his variants
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BK8KbNfgAxc/


Great cover.

----------


## Rise

No need for apologize, JT. And I'm glad that it was just a misunderstanding, Orujo-man.  :Smile: 




> Goddamn, Scalera continues knocking out of the park with his variants
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BK8KbNfgAxc/


Nice, It's seems that issue 4 is going to be Bizarro focused.

----------


## REAL

Man, I can't believe that I'm actually excited to see Bizarro in RHATO.

----------


## Rise

I know! When I saw the new Outlaws I was like "WHY Bizarro?", but now I'm like "WHERE is Bizarro?!".

----------


## REAL

Yeah. I was actually not happy at all when RHATO rebirth was announced, but Lobdell first interview about the dark Trinity and the first look we got about the series made me excited. 

I hope Lobdell continues to deliver.

----------


## Rise

Me too. 

Hey Jan, I have a question. Do you know why the cover of issues 19 in RHATO was changed?

----------


## REAL

Issue 19? What was the cover?

----------


## Rise

It was done by Mico Suayan and Jason looked like two face in it, but it was changed. 

Is there a story behind this?

----------


## REAL

Oh yeah, I remembered the cover. 

There was a rumor that DC was planning to have Jason with burnt face, but the fans backlash after the that cover was leaked made them change their mind. 

I'm not sure if it's true tho.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Tynion did planned to left Jason horribly scarred for some stupid reason and although originally editorial gave the go ahead someone realized it would be stupid and vetoed the idea. This led to Suayan scrap the work he had already done and he decided to sell the scrapped cover online. 
Bleeding Cool caught on this and made an article about it.

The subsequent attention lead to Suayan being fired from DC for allowing thr leak to happen, the sloppy new cover for 19 and the horrible memory loss arc.

----------


## Rise

Interesting. I read some of Snyder's old interviews where he said that DOTF will bring a big changes to Jason which confused me because that event didn't have any big impact on him.

----------


## REAL

Interesting indeed. Firing the guy was a bit harsh tho. 

And where did you find the old interviews, Rise?

----------


## RedQueen

I like the original line up of RHATO a lot, but I gotta say I think I like the concept of the dark trinity more and only a couple of issues in. I just think this dynamic will have a lot of potential depth with this fire forged team. It's also got the same vibe I've been wanting for a Jason solo so I'm pretty cool with it. And hell I've been more than 5 years without Artemis so of course I'm gonna like it.

Does anyone want the old team back? I don't mind callbacks to it of course considering how important they were to Jason, but I think I've just been instantly impressed with the first couple of issues that I'm pretty happy, and we haven't seen Bizarro in action yet, but I think that just speaks for my excitement for the next issues and we haven't seen much interaction by the characters yet. idk but I'm feeling a lot of positivity toward Jason's future development and stories.

----------


## Rise

I find a blog about Jason that has old interviews about him while I was searching for some Greek mythology for reasons  :Stick Out Tongue:  (didn't ask how these two were connected). 

I actually read some very interesting stuff like Snyder saying that number one character he wants to write is Jason, Winick saying that Jason can't have his own book because he is a villain when someone asked him about Jason's future, Didio was planning to have Jason in JL: Generation lost (I never heard about this book before) and O'Neil REALLY dislike Jason.

----------


## REAL

There were really pushing for Jason as a villain, huh?

----------


## Rise

Yep, there was even a headline about how DC planning to introduce Jason again as major villain and nemesis for Grayson when Morrison was writing Batman. I'm seriously glad that they ignored it later.

----------


## REAL

Totally. Morrison's take on Jason was really bad.

----------


## Rise

It is and I never understood why some fans thought it was the best take on Jason  :Confused: .

----------


## REAL

_These_ fans only liked it because it would have benefited Dick a lot to have Jason as his villain, not because they actually thought it done any favors for Jason. 




> I like the original line up of RHATO a lot, but I gotta say I think I like the concept of the dark trinity more and only a couple of issues in. I just think this dynamic will have a lot of potential depth with this fire forged team. It's also got the same vibe I've been wanting for a Jason solo so I'm pretty cool with it. And hell I've been more than 5 years without Artemis so of course I'm gonna like it.
> 
> *Does anyone want the old team back?* I don't mind callbacks to it of course considering how important they were to Jason, but I think I've just been instantly impressed with the first couple of issues that I'm pretty happy, and we haven't seen Bizarro in action yet, but I think that just speaks for my excitement for the next issues and we haven't seen much interaction by the characters yet. idk but I'm feeling a lot of positivity toward Jason's future development and stories.


Nope, but I wouldn't mind having Roy appear in the future for one issue.

----------


## Aioros22

Because its Morrison. 

He`s got two different takes, that being said, and to me neither is bad. The first however only works as meta playground and as a standalone story and not as part of a larger continuity. The second take, in his Batman and Robin is more in touch with how usually Jason was depicted.

----------


## Aioros22

> I find a blog about Jason that has old interviews about him while I was searching for some Greek mythology for reasons  (didn't ask how these two were connected). 
> 
> I actually read some very interesting stuff like Snyder saying that number one character he wants to write is Jason, Winick saying that Jason can't have his own book because he is a villain when someone asked him about Jason's future, Didio was planning to have Jason in JL: Generation lost (I never heard about this book before) and O'Neil REALLY dislike Jason.


Interesting stuff. 

Never heard of O`Neil hating Jason anywhere. To me it didn`t seem like he particularly cared about the main line other than bringing numbers and his own dome of creation pets (Shiva, O Sensei, Dragon, Tiger, etc).

----------


## REAL

> Because its Morrison. 
> 
> He`s got two different takes, that being said, and to me neither is bad. The first however only works as meta playground and as a standalone story and not as part of a larger continuity. The second take, in his Batman and Robin is more in touch with how usually Jason was depicted.


The first one was really bad. Jason actions made no sense to me and Batman forcing him to dye his hair was dumb because I don't believe that Jason would have allowed him to do that. 

The concept of Jason as villain would been interesting if it was done right, but Morrison treated Jason as his meta commentary instead of developing him as character which why his concept failed.

----------


## Rise

Ironically, Morrison making him a red headed is what saved Jason from having Morrison's take on him to ever be considered a canon.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The problem with Morrison's Jason on B&R is that doesnt fit wit the way he wrote him previously. Jason went from a total psycho to a dutiful soldier. The reconciliation with Bruce happening off screen was also a huge misstep on his side.

The only way it makes sense is to assume is being built over Lobdell's work.

----------


## REAL

That actually made me laugh. 

Based Morrison. Not only he saved Jason from the Red Robin mantle, but also saved him from his own writing. 

That being said, the guy is honestly talented and it's shame that he didn't write Jason well.

----------


## Aahz

> The problem with Morrison's Jason on B&R is that doesnt fit wit the way he wrote him previously. Jason went from a total psycho to a dutiful soldier. The reconciliation with Bruce happening off screen was also a huge misstep on his side.


That was Batman inc. and not B&R. I still think that they should have finished this series in the old continuity and not include it in the reboot.




> I like the original line up of RHATO a lot, but I gotta say I think I like the concept of the dark trinity more and only a couple of issues in. I just think this dynamic will have a lot of potential depth with this fire forged team. It's also got the same vibe I've been wanting for a Jason solo so I'm pretty cool with it. And hell I've been more than 5 years without Artemis so of course I'm gonna like it.
> 
> Does anyone want the old team back? I don't mind callbacks to it of course considering how important they were to Jason, but I think I've just been instantly impressed with the first couple of issues that I'm pretty happy, and we haven't seen Bizarro in action yet, but I think that just speaks for my excitement for the next issues and we haven't seen much interaction by the characters yet. idk but I'm feeling a lot of positivity toward Jason's future development and stories.


The Roy Jason team was fun, but starfire never really worked for me. And it always had the problem that both Roy and Starfire are very closely connected with Dick.
I still that it would have made sense to use Kid Devil instead of Roy (at least from a story point of view, Roy sells probably better) , since he was canonically appart from Danny Chase Jasons only friend from his time as Robin, and personality is imo similar to the one of the New 52 Roy. But I can't really think about a good replacement for Kory.





> I Winick saying that Jason can't have his own book because he is a villain when someone asked him about Jason's future


When Deathstroke, Harley, the Sectret Six and the Suicide Squad can have series being a villain is not preventing you from getting one, but it sells probally better when Jason can cross over with other Bat-characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> The first one was really bad. Jason actions made no sense to me and Batman forcing him to dye his hair was dumb because I don't believe that Jason would have allowed him to do that.


Well, he did when Jay was a redhead before Crisis. That particular description of events have a particular context for a particular Jason anyhow.




> The problem with Morrison's Jason on B&R is that doesnt fit wit the way he wrote him previously. Jason went from a total psycho to a dutiful soldier. The reconciliation with Bruce happening off screen was also a huge misstep on his side.
> 
> The only way it makes sense is to assume is being built over Lobdell's work.


Batman INC, yeah. 

It fit with the rest, mostly Loedbell`s work. The previous take in B&R however doesn`t fit anywhere, characterization wise. It reads like an Elsewords and that`s where the fun of it lies.

----------


## REAL

> Well, he did when Jay was a redhead before Crisis. That particular description of events have a particular context for a particular Jason anyhow.


No, he didn't. Pre crisis Jason dyed his own hair without batman knowledge (and he wasn't happy about it actually).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

yesterday I bought the second and last TPB of Red Hood/Arsenal and looking through the additional material -consisting of cover sketches- I found some curious changes between the preliminary and the final versions.

Issue 12's cover had a pretty unnerving reflection on Jason's helmet and Duela hanging around without the idiotic Joker's mask



Shame it was modified for the printed version because I like this sketch better.

But the cover that went through most changes is the one for issue 13



Honestly is a shame none of those ideas went further because It would've looked a lot better than the final version (The selfie version was brilliant). But the weirdest thing is that the cover was originally using Medri's costumes rather than Rocafort's



I mean, there's not a lot of difference with Roy but I really, really like the hoodie and I'm sad they scrapped that version.

----------


## Orujo-man

Really great stuff, pretty interesting the changes if we look the final version. I really like the first page without the Joker's face on Duela and the body in the reflection of Jason's helmet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Nice find Dark. I like that reflection in his helmet there though I could care less about whether Jason's vest/hoodie was in the second pic. I hated that design or rather I hated how most artists drew it including when Medri drew it. I always thought it looked overly bulky and the look just didn't appeal to me at all.

----------


## G-Potion

Saw this on Matteo Scalera instagram. Drawn for NYCC.

----------


## The Whovian

> Saw this on Matteo Scalera instagram. Drawn for NYCC.


That is so amazing! You know what Jason is thinking.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Saw this on Matteo Scalera instagram. Drawn for NYCC.


Nice. Yeah we all know what Jay's thinking there.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I find a blog about Jason that has old interviews about him while I was searching for some Greek mythology for reasons  (didn't ask how these two were connected). 
> 
> I actually read some very interesting stuff like Snyder saying that number one character he wants to write is Jason, Winick saying that Jason can't have his own book because he is a villain when someone asked him about Jason's future, Didio was planning to have Jason in JL: Generation lost (I never heard about this book before) and O'Neil REALLY dislike Jason.


Hearing that Jason is top character on his wish list makes me happy, because he'd kill it on a Jason solo. Hopefully this could mean that Jason shows up in ASB, at least.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Saw this on Matteo Scalera instagram. Drawn for NYCC.


Really wish that Scalera would take a short break from Black Science (it'd make sense, as Remender is doing 4 series), so he could do a 1-4 issue arc of RHatO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh man. DC you magnificent bastards.




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #6
> 
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
> Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Dark Trinity conclusion! Black Mask and Red Hood go toe-to-toe beneath One Police Plaza, while above them Bizarro and Artemis clash in a battle of titanic proportion! The finale to Dark Trinity is heredont miss it!
> On sale JANUARY 11  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T

----------


## Orujo-man

> Oh man. DC you magnificent bastards.


wahahahahahahahaha! 

Amazing, I loving it !. Look Bizarro's face, pure gold.

----------


## Alycat

This series has gotten some of the best covers in Rebirth. Not a bad one so far.

----------


## Aioros22

We can now tell that part of Jason`s thing as a teacher is for you to first learn how to steal tires...creatively. Bonus points to whoever does it before the Bat shows up. 

Ready? Go!

----------


## REAL

> Black Mask and Red Hood go toe-to-toe beneath One Police Plaza


So, Jason's suspicion about Black mask in issue 3 was right after all.

----------


## adrikito

> Oh man. DC you magnificent bastards.


Is the... BATMOBIL.. That face.. It seems that Bizarro will be Better than I expected...

----------


## Aioros22

Bizarro is already better than expected by virtue alone of Loedbell not playing the usual cliché with the character. Risky business but it paid off on its introduction.

----------


## Aioros22

> This series has gotten some of the best covers in Rebirth. Not a bad one so far.


And the best variants of any Rebirth title that comes quickly to mind. The only other title that comes as good (altho not vibrant in terms of visual experiments) are the Aquaman variants...who I also wish were the main covers. Both also have great color work.

Question up in the air, but who wants Black Mask to stay as a relevant part of Jason`s antagonists? I find him deliciously creppy and someone who ties up with Red Hood`s history since he came back for too obvious reasons.

----------


## Alycat

> And the best variants of any Rebirth title that comes quickly to mind. The only other title that comes as good (altho not vibrant in terms of visual experiments) are the Aquaman variants...who I also wish were the main covers. Both also have great color work.
> 
> Question up in the air, but who wants Black Mask to stay as a relevant part of Jason`s antagonists? I find him deliciously creppy and someone who ties up with Red Hood`s history since he came back for too obvious reasons.


I fully agree with you on Black Mask.  I just really like their relationship to each other.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. is the current Black Mask still Sionis? And was his new 52 Origin story given somewhere?

----------


## Aioros22

I`d prefer their approach to Black Mask be a bit on the Pulp horror side. Let him have glimpses of his former life before his rise in the Underworld. For all purposes he shouldn`t care much what it was there before. His mask is the identity that matters. 

In that same regard I think it would be cool if Loedbell would go mostly with simbolism and reference his Janus philosophy and dicotomy here and there without even revealing his maskless face much if at all. Basically bridging a Pulp approach with Teatric (Shakesperean) flare in some characters. After all, the main act is someone who usurped the identity of the person who killed him and rewrote it completely  :Smile:  

Powerful motifs that stretch the meaning of Identity and Masks.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh and technically, with all said and done, my answer would be that you don`t need to be especific with his origin. Let it stay to the device of imagination of the readers. Let us have that work.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I`d prefer their approach to Black Mask be a bit on the Pulp horror side. Let him have glimpses of his former life before his rise in the Underworld. For all purposes he shouldn`t care much what it was there before. His mask is the identity that matters. 
> 
> In that same regard I think it would be cool if Loedbell would go mostly with simbolism and reference his Janus philosophy and dicotomy here and there without even revealing his face much if at all. Basically bridging a Pulp approach with Teatric (Shakesperean) flare in some characters. After all the main act is someone who took the identity of the person who killed him to usurp its powerful idenity and rewrite it completely  
> 
> Powerful motifs that stretch the meaning of Identity and Masks.


I have no idea what you are saying, but okay.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m saying that to me Black Mask would benefit greatly from a Pulp genre approach meeting teatrics, instead of just standard superheo-ed gangsters. 

I`m also saying it would be cool to expand that to psicological depht with masks/identity simbolism since the main act that is Jason is being a character who was reborn that way. The Janus (Roman deity of double face) is something that was attributed to the old Black Mask to simbolize his obsession with masks and how they overthrow old identities/faces/facets.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I`m saying that to me Black Mask would benefit greatly from a Pulp genre approach meeting teatrics, instead of just standard superheo-ed gangsters. 
> 
> I`m also saying it would be cool to expand that to psicological depht with masks/identity simbolism since the main act that is Jason is being a character who was reborn that way. The Janus (Roman deity of double face) is something that was attributed to the old Black Mask to simbolize his obsession with masks and how they overthrow old identities/faces/facets.


Like you said Janus represents the beginning and the end of the things, a fairly adequate symbolism for Rebirth. And the hipocresy/ambiguity of Black Mask with his relationship with Jason.

Very interesting exposition Aioros22, I'm agree with you. Also I want too see Black Mask's sadism and rage, when he loses the control. A very good way to represent the dicotomy you mentioned if we look his current calm character.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, I want to see that side as well. Not simply as vulgar as he usually was Pre Flashpoint, but more sophisticated when it comes to emotions and character. We have a good chance to take it from a sort of ground zero while exploring what mattered before. I kind of feel that some of the identity issues that you usually see with Joker, like the peeling face thing, would work better with someone who already had that kind of obsession, he just wasn`t explored so because he`s not as big a name. 

He`s big enogh now and chances are he could even be more. Hiding the sadistic nature and violence (even sexual in his case) under a blanket of sophistication and control.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Like you said Janus represents the beginning and the end of the things, a fairly adequate symbolism for Rebirth. And the hipocresy/ambiguity of Black Mask with his relationship with Jason.
> 
> Very interesting exposition Aioros22, I'm agree with you. *Also I want too see Black Mask's sadism and rage, when he loses the control. A very good way to represent the dicotomy you mentioned if we look his current calm character.*


I'd like to see it as well and I think because he's been presented thus far as a character who is calm and in control it'll be all the more shocking when he finally does show his "true colors" as it were. I'm enjoying this very controlled and sophisticated version of Black Mask and I'd really like it if they kept him around as a part if Jason's rogues gallery. It seems fitting.

----------


## Aioros22

I`ll bet we will see Black Mask show his true colors when he and Jason fight over the conclusion of this first arc. But he will have to, since its a direct confrontation. I don`t want Loedbell to just restring that to a fight, thought, but it is a start. 

Another rogue whose morality and ambiguity would be a nice foil to Jason would be the original Tally Man. I always found his design neat (being a Pulp afficionado and all) and his backstory to be powerful. His introduction against Batzarel was fudging cool. I was never satisfied by the way they handled him next when he encounters BatDick.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I`ll bet we will see Black Mask show his true colors when he and Jason fight over the conclusion of this first arc. But he will have to, since its a direct confrontation. I don`t want Loedbell to just restring that to a fight, thought, but it is a start. 
> 
> Another rogue whose morality and ambiguity would be a nice foil to Jason would be the original Tally Man. I always found his design neat (being a Pulp afficionado and all) and his backstory to be powerful. His introduction against Batzarel was fudging cool. I was never satisfied by the way they handled him next when he encounters BatDick.


I totally forgot about Tally Man. He would make a nice foil for Jason now that you mention it. Actually I wouldn't mind if this book leaned a little toward the Pulp end of the spectrum to be honest.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, let Jason have some bizarre (no pun intended), creepy antagonists with different levels of moral ambiguity. Some new ones too, of course. He`s had space cheese, martial arts and supernatural foes and depending the arc, they _should_ keep being used. One of the things I want to see here and there is Zenism from Ducra when appropiate. I feel that a teacher figure who had no bias towards him was a amazing adittion to Jason`s mythos. But it`s a bit of visual gold mine waiting there. As much as Batman has thrived from experimental titles in the 80`s, let him handle the general superhero scope and have Jason deal with moralities and skeletons in the closet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, let Jason have some bizarre (no pun intended), creepy antagonists with different levels of moral ambiguity. Some new ones too, of course. He`s had space cheese, martial arts and supernatural foes and depending the arc, they _should_ keep being used. *One of the things I want to see here and there is Zenism from Ducra when appropiate. I feel that a teacher figure who had no bias towards him was a amazing adittion to Jason`s mythos.* But it`s a bit of visual gold mine waiting there. As much as Batman has thrived from experimental titles in the 80`s, let him handle the general superhero scope and have Jason deal with moralities and skeletons in the closet.


I'd like to see that too. Ducra was the most interesting addition to Jason's mythos in a good long while and I'd hate it if she and the training she provided to Jason were never mentioned again. I thought it was something that made Jason stand apart from the rest of the Robins in a good way.

----------


## Aioros22

I think Loedbell adressed in an interview that it`s all still there. He basically at this point picks what fits better in the current puzzle out of the maze, depending the direction he goes. It`s sort of an open continuity. You pick out the trash (which is easy to identify, thankfully) and then have this whole pieces to use the way you see fit. 

A bit Morrison-ey, isn`t it  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think Loedbell adressed in an interview that it`s all still there. He basically at this point picks what fits better in the current puzzle out of the maze, depending the direction he goes. It`s sort of an open continuity. You pick out the trash (which is easy to identify, thankfully) and then have this whole pieces to use the way you see fit. 
> 
> A bit Morrison-ey, isn`t it


It does sound a bit Morrison-ey to me as well. I still hope Ducra, the All Caste, Essence and their teachings show up once in a while in story.

----------


## Aahz

Personally I would have preferred if they would have let Black Masks role in UTRH intact, and had used a more obscure villains from the 80s, for example Dr. Fang.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Personally I would have preferred if they would have let Black Masks role in UTRH intact, and had used a more obscure villains from the 80s, for example Dr. Fang.


I like to think that Black Mask's role there is still intact and I'm going to continue thinking that unless something in story says otherwise especially now with Rebirth reestablishing some things such as Jason having stole the tires from the Batmobile. I'd also like to see some more of the more obscure villains from Jason's days as Robin show up here. It would be fun to see who Lobdell would reimagine them.

----------


## Aioros22

> Personally I would have preferred if they would have let Black Masks role in UTRH intact, and had used a more obscure villains from the 80s, for example Dr. Fang.


So far nothing postulates that his role in that arc isn`t intact. I`m talking more about character work on itself not roles, tho. 

But sure, bring obscure villains from Jason`s day as Robin. And bring back the big guns too, for all purposes: KGBeast and Deacon Blackfire!

----------


## AJpyro

Got my RH/A volv 2 today. Such a fun end.

----------


## Aahz

> I like to think that Black Mask's role there is still intact and I'm going to continue thinking that unless something in story says otherwise especially now with Rebirth reestablishing some things such as Jason having stole the tires from the Batmobile.


But UTRH was intact you could never have Jason and Black mask interact like this.

----------


## Aioros22

His role was that of an Underworld criminal/Boss. I find it hard to believe that having it happened (and we know UTRH will always count in some capacity) that BM wouldn`t be part of the story just because Loedbell writes him with different beats than Winnick did.

It`s up in the air but I don`t see a major reason it wouldn`t fit.

----------


## Orujo-man

> His role was that of an Underworld criminal/Boss. I find it hard to believe that having it happened (and we know UTRH will always count in some capacity) that BM wouldn`t be part of the story just because Loedbell writes him with different beats than Winnick did.
> 
> It`s up in the air but I don`t see a major reason it wouldn`t fit.


Well, we know Jason back to Gotham for revenge, and in R/A Roy mentioned the thing with the bag with the heads of the drug dealer's lieutenants. I don't know, maybe some parts about UTH are still canon but the part of Black Mask don't. 

Or simply Black Mask doesn't give importance of the events in UTH, viewing Jason as a mercenary for his purposes. I admit this doesn't have much sense.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s possible he may simply view Jason as work for hire. Or someone who at least seemed to be at odds with Batman. Bussiness is bussiness. 

We`ll find out eventually.

----------


## The Whovian

> *It`s possible he may simply view Jason as work for hire*. Or someone who at least seemed to be at odds with Batman. Bussiness is bussiness. 
> 
> We`ll find out eventually.


My thoughts exactly.

----------


## The Whovian

What do you guys rate the series so far? I give it and A+

When the info came out about Bizarro being in it, I thought "This isn't going to go well". It's only been one issue, but I love the look and how he's acting so far. 

Lobdell's writing has been excellent, the art is AMAZING and the characters are all interacting extremely well. Artemis' banter with Jason has made be laugh out loud. I absolutely love this book.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What do you guys rate the series so far? I give it and A+
> 
> When the info came out about Bizarro being in it, I thought "This isn't going to go well". It's only been one issue, but I love the look and how he's acting so far. 
> 
> Lobdell's writing has been excellent, the art is AMAZING and the characters are all interacting extremely well. Artemis' banter with Jason has made be laugh out loud. I absolutely love this book.


I give it an A+ as well. Everything about it is just so good. It ranks the highest of all the DC books I get and overall it ranks second on my list after Valiant's Generation Zero.

----------


## AJpyro

> What do you guys rate the series so far? I give it and A+
> 
> When the info came out about Bizarro being in it, I thought "This isn't going to go well". It's only been one issue, but I love the look and how he's acting so far. 
> 
> Lobdell's writing has been excellent, the art is AMAZING and the characters are all interacting extremely well. Artemis' banter with Jason has made be laugh out loud. I absolutely love this book.


I'm leaning on A+ but I'm waiting for the end of this arc. It's not just the beginning but the ending of a package that tells me all.

But I'm not worried. In Lobdell, we trust.

----------


## Orujo-man

> What do you guys rate the series so far? I give it and A+
> 
> When the info came out about Bizarro being in it, I thought "This isn't going to go well". It's only been one issue, but I love the look and how he's acting so far. 
> 
> Lobdell's writing has been excellent, the art is AMAZING and the characters are all interacting extremely well. Artemis' banter with Jason has made be laugh out loud. I absolutely love this book.


I give an 8 or 8'5/10 at this moment. Good character development, great interactions between characters and good balance with serious and funny moments maintaining the dark tone of the series thanks to the amazing art of Soy and Gandini. I love the impact of red among the dark and grey tones.

----------


## Aioros22

Likewise a 8.5/9 outta 10 to me. It`s only missing some crazy action and combos now that I`m asking to make the perfect dish. I loved his first run but sometimes it had quite the action and not as much character driven work. This time its more balanced, with quite the character work and it`s been absolutely near perfect. The voices clinch organically well. So yeah, just some crazy action-fu to spice it up!

Artistically, there`s nothing I can add. It`s got a distinctive signature and visual pallette that stands above the other books of the line and even among Rebirth. So well crafted that is hard not to look at and this without cheap gymmincs. Yes, the book about identities got the best identity. 

As it is, it is among the best 3 Rebirth books thus far and by a decent margin, the *best* bat book right now.

----------


## Aahz

> Likewise a 8.5/9 outta 10 to me. It`s only missing some crazy action and combos now that I`m asking to make the perfect dish. I loved his first run but sometimes it had quite the action and not as much character driven work. This time its more balanced, with quite the character work and it`s been absolutely near perfect. The voices clinch organically well. So yeah, just some crazy action-fu to spice it up!


Since the end of Tynions Run, Jason had imo way to less bad ass fight scenes. I know that many peoples don't like Tynions Run, but I really would like Jason to do some crazy martial arts stuff or summon his All Blades from time to time and to kick more ass.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s the cherry on top that`s missing. If they manage to balance that out with what they alreacy achieved in the book, it`be perfection.

----------


## Aahz

> It`s the cherry on top that`s missing. If they manage to balance that out with what they alreacy achieved in the book, it`be perfection.


But it is still kind of missing especially if you compare it with how Dicks and Damian are written.

----------


## Aioros22

> But it is still kind of missing especially if you compare it with how Dicks and Damian are written.


I agree that is missing but it`s missing because it is something that should be there, not because other books may have it. I don`t really care how Damian or Dick are particularly written in this context. 

Or in Damian`s case, at all.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I agree that its missing right now but I am glad Lobdell is starting this out by focusing on the characters themselves. I think that will make this a stronger and more character driven run in the end and I like that. I also believe that a bad ass fight scene is forthcoming.

----------


## Aahz

> I agree that is missing but it`s missing because it is something that should be there, not because other books may have it.


I like to have some consistency across the franchise and if Dick can pull of stuff like in the picture below, Jason should be able to do similar stuff.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I like to have some consistency across the franchise and if Dick can pull of stuff like in the picture below, Jason should be able to do similar stuff.


I think what Lobdell is doing here, at least in part, is playing up Jason's smarts which is something that is often ignored completely in favor of his fighting skills. This is something that had been a problem over the years and frankly I'd rather see that getting a bit of attention for a bit. That being said I do think we will be getting a bad ass fight out of this arc very soon and I will be happy to see it.

----------


## Caivu

Jason's entry in the newest edition of the DC Encyclopedia (might be a bit small, sorry):

20161028_155745.jpg

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Jason's entry in the newest edition of the DC Encyclopedia (might be a bit small, sorry):
> 
> 20161028_155745.jpg


Thanks for posting this Caivu.

----------


## Orujo-man

Thanks Caivu. 

Talking about the entry I only can express my feeling in one way:

----------


## Caivu

> Thanks Caivu. 
> 
> Talking about the entry I only can express my feeling in one way:


...what's wrong with it?

----------


## Atlanta96

Allies: Batman, Starfire

Uhh, you forgot Arsenal. You know, the dude he teamed up with for 5 years worth of comics. Is the rest of the encyclopedia this clumsy?

BTW Caivu, are you going to post the Tim Drake entry next?

----------


## Caivu

> Allies: Batman, Starfire
> 
> Uhh, you forgot Arsenal. You know, the dude he teamed up with for 5 years worth of comics. Is the rest of the encyclopedia this clumsy?


I've only skimmed through it since it's a gift and I didn't want to wear it out, but it's got some other omissions like that. Not a lot that's technically _wrong_ (at least from what I've seen), just absent.




> BTW Caivu, are you going to post the Tim Drake entry next?


Well, about that... Tim doesn't have his own entry.

He's mentioned a fair bit, but does not have his own entry.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Allies: Batman, Starfire
> 
> Uhh, you forgot Arsenal. You know, the dude he teamed up with for 5 years worth of comics. *Is the rest of the encyclopedia this clumsy*?
> 
> BTW Caivu, are you going to post the Tim Drake entry next?


Bad editing job that.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Well, about that... Tim doesn't have his own entry.
> 
> He's mentioned a fair bit, but does not have his own entry.


...  :Frown: 

10char

----------


## JasonTodd428

Gah. Not what I meant to do. 




> Well, about that... Tim doesn't have his own entry.
> 
> He's mentioned a fair bit, but does not have his own entry.


That's just odd....

----------


## Orujo-man

> ..what's wrong with it?


Allies: Starfire (and Roy?)

Abilities: Skilled acrobat (?), magical abilities due to the inmersion in Lazarus pit (?) (really, never read about it in the book. His skills is for his training with the All-Caste. Maybe I'm wrong.)

They only write about the first part of RHATO. And I think Jason worked as Wingman in Batman Incorporated before the Tynion arc, not after.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Allies: Starfire (and Roy?)
> 
> Abilities: Skilled acrobat (?), magical abilities due to the inmersion in Lazarus pit (?) (really, never read about it in the book. His skills is for his training with the All-Caste. Maybe I'm wrong.)
> 
> They only write about the first part of RHATO. And I think Jason worked as Wingman in Batman Incorporated before the Tynion arc, not after.


Badly edited isn't it? They definitely needed someone to do some fact checking before it went to print. Wonder if anyone else's entries are messed up? The others that were posted are not as easy to read as this one was for me.

----------


## Caivu

> Badly edited isn't it? They definitely needed someone to do some fact checking before it went to print. Wonder if anyone else's entries are messed up? The others that were posted are not as easy to read as this one was for me.


I've not seen anything glaringly wrong, but there are minor things here and there. Stuff like heights; for example, Wonder Woman's height is given as 6'0" when the current series made it very clear she's 6'2".

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I've not seen anything glaringly wrong, but there are minor things here and there. Stuff like heights; for example, Wonder Woman's height is given as 6'0" when the current series made it very clear she's 6'2".


Thanks although I might say the omission of an entry for Tim is a bit glaring. It feels to me like they rushed this into print or didn't edit it as well as they could have.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I've not seen anything glaringly wrong, but there are minor things here and there. Stuff like heights; for example, Wonder Woman's height is given as 6'0" when the current series made it very clear she's 6'2".


Yeah, maybe we are too much exigent. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your effort to share that with us.




> Thanks although I might say the omission of an entry for Tim is a bit glaring. It feels to me like they rushed this into print or didn't edit it as well as they could have.


Yeah that's weird, I have the same feeling.

----------


## G-Potion

I think the previous Batman encyclopedia has Jason's height and weight more in line with how he's been drawn since N52 than this one which fits Arkham Knight more.

Thanks *Caivu* for sharing!

----------


## Aioros22

Thanks for posting, Calvin!

Omissions or sketchy editing job is just par de course when it comes to a good deal of encyclopedias. No Roy, mentioning Ras Al Ghul and not the Joker or Black Mask who are usually more his direct antagonists, giving him magical abilities due to the Lazarus Pit when what he`s got are esoteric MA abilities due to his training with the Al Caste and so on. But it`s standard practice really, I always got the feeling that whoever makes these encyclopedias (marketing departments?) aren`t directly tied to titles or the characters or its writers. 

Tim not having even his own entry is weird. Is it because he`s supposed to be dead? That`s taking the in-story a bit far. Makes me think if the omission of Roy comes from the Teen Titans editorial group somehow. Preety sketchy.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Thanks for posting, Calvin!
> 
> Omissions or sketchy editing job is just par de course when it comes to a good deal of encyclopedias. No Roy, mentioning Ras Al Ghul and not the Joker or Black Mask who are usually more his direct antagonists, giving him magical abilities due to the Lazarus Pit when what he`s got are esoteric MA abilities due to his training with the Al Caste and so on. But it`s standard practice really, I always got the feeling that whoever makes these encyclopedias (marketing departments?) aren`t directly tied to titles or the characters or its writers. 
> 
> Tim not having even his own entry is weird. Is it because he`s supposed to be dead? That`s taking the in-story a bit far. Makes me think if the omission of Roy comes from the Teen Titans editorial group somehow. Preety sketchy.


Yeah you right about the encyclopedias thing, but normally one expect a little more research and not a copy-paste from a wikia. And I don't understand why not include Tim in the encyclopedia. His actual "dead" it's not an excuse to me.

----------


## AJpyro

Shouldn't The Batfam be on there? Pretty sure they were square at that point.




> I've only skimmed through it since it's a gift and I didn't want to wear it out, but it's got some other omissions like that. Not a lot that's technically _wrong_ (at least from what I've seen), just absent.
> 
> Well, about that... Tim doesn't have his own entry.
> 
> He's mentioned a fair bit, but does not have his own entry.


Now that's just mean.

----------


## Caivu

> Omissions or sketchy editing job is just par de course when it comes to a good deal of encyclopedias. No Roy, mentioning Ras Al Ghul and not the Joker or Black Mask who are usually more his direct antagonists, giving him magical abilities due to the Lazarus Pit when what he`s got are esoteric MA abilities due to his training with the Al Caste and so on. But it`s standard practice really, I always got the feeling that whoever makes these encyclopedias (marketing departments?) aren`t directly tied to titles or the characters or its writers. 
> 
> Tim not having even his own entry is weird. Is it because he`s supposed to be dead? That`s taking the in-story a bit far. Makes me think if the omission of Roy comes from the Teen Titans editorial group somehow. Preety sketchy.


No, this book was finished well before Rebirth even started, I think. There's nothing mentioned in detail about any of the new series, just the basic premises. Plus, there are characters included who are currently dead, like David Cain.

As for Tim's absence, here's a quote from the Introduction:




> The characters in this volume were hand-picked by DC Comics, and thoroughly researched by a team of passionate comic book historians.


and




> ... the _DC Comics Encyclopedia_ focuses on the most current version of a given character's backstory...


That could also help explain away some of the mistakes, since maybe the contributing writers just synthesized contradictory info from the books themselves as best they could.

----------


## oasis1313

The DC Encyclopedia is also never updated.  Dick Grayson is 5'10" and 175 pounds for decades.  Never gains or loses an ounce, same for Batman and everybody else.  I just think nobody at DC really gives a hoot about it.

----------


## Orujo-man

> No, this book was finished well before Rebirth even started, I think. There's nothing mentioned in detail about any of the new series, just the basic premises. Plus, there are characters included who are currently dead, like David Cain.
> 
> As for Tim's absence, here's a quote from the Introduction:
> 
> The characters in this volume were hand-picked by DC Comics, and thoroughly researched by a team of passionate comic book historians. 
> 
> and
> 
> ... the DC Comics Encyclopedia focuses on the most current version of a given character's backstory... 
> ...


But that doesn't have sense, in Jason entrance they missed some basic things (Roy for example or marksmanship) and they add erroneous information like his supposed magical powers for the Lazarus pit.

And for Tim it's possible their origins are a little confused now, but it's an important character of the Bat-verse. In fact they named him in various entrances and didn't gave him his own entrance. Pretty questionable the work of the team.

----------


## Aioros22

> No, this book was finished well before Rebirth even started, I think. There's nothing mentioned in detail about any of the new series, just the basic premises. Plus, there are characters included who are currently dead, like David Cain.
> 
> As for Tim's absence, here's a quote from the Introduction:
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> ...


That should explan the ultra summarization and contraditions, thanks. 

As for Tim I can`t help but imagine him walking outta room after not being picked to play some game. That`s evil.

----------


## Aioros22

Big Brother Jay for the rescue Timbo!

https://pt.pinterest.com/pin/389913280211308572/

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> So far nothing postulates that his role in that arc isn`t intact. I`m talking more about character work on itself not roles, tho. 
> 
> But sure, bring obscure villains from Jason`s day as Robin. And bring back the big guns too, for all purposes: KGBeast and Deacon Blackfire!


Scotton Snyder's The [KG]Beast would make for an awesome on the run arc, as he's a crazy serious badass.

----------


## Aahz

> Abilities: Skilled acrobat (?), magical abilities due to the inmersion in Lazarus pit (?) (really, never read about it in the book. His skills is for his training with the All-Caste. Maybe I'm wrong.)


Jason should be a little bit more than just "skilled" as acrobat and in hand-to-hand combat, and "some magical abilities" really sounds like the writers weren't really sure what he can do.

----------


## Aahz

> I think the previous Batman encyclopedia has Jason's height and weight more in line with how he's been drawn since N52 than this one which fits Arkham Knight more.


I find him a little bit to small and slim in the current comics, I prefer when looks bigger and more intimidating (like the Medri version).

----------


## Aahz

> The DC Encyclopedia is also never updated.  Dick Grayson is 5'10" and 175 pounds for decades.  Never gains or loses an ounce, same for Batman and everybody else.  I just think nobody at DC really gives a hoot about it.


If you check my list you will that for some characters the stats changed, even if they still often don't make much sense.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Badly edited isn't it? They definitely needed someone to do some fact checking before it went to print. Wonder if anyone else's entries are messed up? The others that were posted are not as easy to read as this one was for me.


I think they meant to keep it short and to the point. Making it brief and interesting gets people to read.

----------


## AJpyro

> I think they meant to keep it short and to the point. Making it brief and interesting gets people to read.


Adding one more name would've made it too hard?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Adding one more name would've made it too hard?


Probably not, but I think people on here are nitpicking the entry as a whole way too much.

----------


## Aioros22

Maybe but if you want to have the trouble making that sort of product, it wouldn`t hurt getting things mostly right.

Think about it, whoever makes these already got everything done for them. They just need to select whatever prime info they want to use.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Everything was mostly right. They just left out Roy. And it might be because they aren't on good terms anymore. Look at the ending of Red Hood and Arsenal.

----------


## AJpyro

> Everything was mostly right. They just left out Roy. And it might be because they aren't on good terms anymore. Look at the ending of Red Hood and Arsenal.


And Kori's apparently forgotten all about Roy and Jason(if her solo is anything to go by). At least the Roy ne makes sense.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Everything was mostly right. They just left out Roy. And it might be because they aren't on good terms anymore. Look at the ending of Red Hood and Arsenal.


Thing is, the entry doesn't account for anything that passed after Tynion's run, making Roy's absence an editorial oversight rather than a "clever" omission

----------


## Aahz

These books are afaik not written by DC, so it is anyway questionable how canonic they are.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> These books are afaik not written by DC, so it is anyway questionable how canonic they are.


The thing is that if someone is going to publish an encyclopedia on ANYTHING it behoves them to print accurate information or what's the point. This is not the only entry with issues in this encyclopedia. Heck, Tim Drake has no entry whatsoever. Honestly it would better if both DC and Marvel published things like this themselves.

----------


## Aioros22

> Everything was mostly right. They just left out Roy. And it might be because they aren't on good terms anymore. Look at the ending of Red Hood and Arsenal.


The particular listing of his abilities is weirder than any ommision of Roy. 

It`s not that it`s a big deal, these Pedias are what they are, but those kind of things stand out unecessarily. It takes the same amount of work.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> These books are afaik not written by DC, so it is anyway questionable how canonic they are.


They aren't written by DC by are still approved by them. So again, it all comes down to shoddy editing.

----------


## hero talk

I think so to @jasontodd428

----------


## SpentShrimp

Well then, looks like my clever explanation was just that. An explanation. Sad to see the Starfire solo blow away her history in the Outlaws. Could have done a little damage control there, but oh well.

The one that bothers me the most is that the only person to ever really draw Jason to his full size was Jim Lee. I would love to see Jason drawn to his actual size again.

----------


## Aahz

> The one that bothers me the most is that the only person to ever really draw Jason to his full size was Jim Lee. I would love to see Jason drawn to his actual size again.


I think some other artists did it too, but in his own book Jason is usually a little bit to small and skinny (maybe with exception of Medri's art).

----------


## Aioros22

Jim Lee tends to draw male heroes around the same build. I really enjoyed Rockafort but unless a character is supposed to be a mamoth of a man like Thanos, his guys have all that slim quality. It`s something that`s not easy to be self concious about when it comes to drawing since part of Comics 101 is breaking from templates so you can draw faster. 

The difference in build doesn`t need to be huge but Dick should be slimmer as the acrobat and Jason should look bigger because he`s more physical. Instead of drawing the logical paralels with the Turtles, how about Supernatural? Sam is taller and slim, Dean is shorther and broader.

----------


## Aioros22

Is Jason a part of the current "I Am" arc in Batman? I have yet to pick #9 (I`ve only seen the previews) and #10 is coming out.

----------


## JJ!

> Is Jason a part of the current "I Am" arc in Batman? I have yet to pick #9 (I`ve only seen the previews) and #10 is coming out.


He wasn't in #9. I don't know about #10.

----------


## Aahz

> The difference in build doesn`t need to be huge but Dick should be slimmer as the acrobat and Jason should look bigger because he`s more physical.


Acrobats are not really that slim, just for example how olympic gymnast look like. These guys are usually quite short but hardly slim but Jason should imo really go more in the direction "heavy weight boxer/martial artists".

----------


## Aahz

> Omissions or sketchy editing job is just par de course when it comes to a good deal of encyclopedias. No Roy, mentioning Ras Al Ghul and not the Joker or Black Mask who are usually more his direct antagonists, giving him magical abilities due to the Lazarus Pit when what he`s got are esoteric MA abilities due to his training with the Al Caste and so on. But it`s standard practice really, I always got the feeling that whoever makes these encyclopedias (marketing departments?) aren`t directly tied to titles or the characters or its writers.


If you look closer you will see that Roy is at least mentioned in the longer text below the box.

BTW. I think the shoulder amor he has on the picture should become a part of his regular costume.

----------


## Aioros22

> Acrobats are not really that slim, just for example how olympic gymnast look like. These guys are usually quite short but hardly slim but Jason should imo really go more in the direction "heavy weight boxer/martial artists".


Now that you mention it it`s likely true. I was probably going more for the gut feeling asthetics than necessarily how practical it is, but I agree on the direction. Perhaps it would make more sense to say that Dick should have a more lean cut/pleaseant build to go along with the 007 vibe and Jason would look more functional since he`s more about how many different ways he can put you down. 

and bring the pain

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Acrobats are not really that slim, just for example how olympic gymnast look like. These guys are usually quite short but hardly slim but Jason should imo really go more in the direction "heavy weight boxer/martial artists".


Yeah,  he should be shorter, but bulkier in the boxing, or mma, fashion, not Superman big. He would best to designed as an in-fighter, that can counter (because he can read body language), but keeps that as an ace because he can tank hits.

Really tired off all is constant jumping, and shooting. Also, he should've used his All Blades against Artemis, rather than just shooting. OF course, she admits he held back, but still.

Anyway, I'd Ike to see Jason as someone built to, and capable of, fighting like a savage, but does that to mask his skill, and strategist mind.

----------


## Aioros22

See, that`s where his dirty figthing mindset could shine the most. He should let opponents make whatever preconceived notion about whether he`s just a sharpshooter or a tank to lure them in and then if need be surprise them by either using the esoteric training he`s received and/or the Al Blades. 

Even without his world training/Al Castle backgrounds, he should be a tuff bastard to put down. Jason is imo the most stubburn and flat out heart out of everyone save Bruce. That`s exacty in what they resemble the most. They don`t quit. They don`t beg. You either put them down or you`re the one kissing the floor. Reminds me a bit of the ending of "Warrior" of Tom Hardy, when even losing he was shocking everyone with his sheer guts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27_H7xumAbA

This is what Jason is. someone who lost about everything and came back, teeths grinding.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Really tired off all is constant jumping, and shooting. Also, he should've used his All Blades against Artemis, rather than just shooting. OF course, she admits he held back, but still.


_sigh_

Lobdell already said that he's writing Jason as someone that fights using his brains rather than hid strength, someone that will rig the odds on his favor.

And he also said that the All Blades can only used against magical threats.

----------


## Aahz

> Is Jason a part of the current "I Am" arc in Batman? I have yet to pick #9 (I`ve only seen the previews) and #10 is coming out.


No it was iirc said that he will be part of "I am Bane" which will be the next "I Am" arc after the current "I am Suicide".

----------


## Aioros22

> _sigh_
> 
> Lobdell already said that he's writing Jason as someone that fights using his brains rather than hid strength, someone that will rig the odds on his favor.


Which is good, I like that but he can always improve the coreography of his Gun-fu. Have it mixed with creating openings and also using bone crushing moves. Spicing the action and how unique Jason can fight can be another draw. 




> And he also said that the All Blades can only used against magical threats.


I do wonder if that only works on people who use magic or are also magical in nature. Essence was easy, she was kind of both. 

Artemis is an amazon but Wonder Woman is a demi-godess. Would it work on Diana rather than Artemis?

----------


## JasonTodd428

I believe it was "dark magical threats" meaning evil magical threats and that they only appear for such types of threats. While she is definitely threatening and imposing I don't believe Artemis qualifies. Essence does because she was a member of the Untitled.

----------


## G-Potion

I think Jason's slimmer build could be explained by his combat training by the All Caste, which from the flashbacks with Ducra, his fight with the Iron Rule and the clothes Jason wore during All Caste training is more reminiscent of Chinese traditional martial arts which often favors forms and other things over body building. Legendary masters of this art like Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan for most part don't look big.

That said, agree that Jason should be unpredictable and able to deceive his opponent with his large repertoire of fighting styles and strategic mind. And being a tough bastard on top of that.

----------


## Aioros22

> I believe it was "dark magical threats" meaning evil magical threats and that they only appear for such types of threats. While she is definitely threatening and imposing I don't believe Artemis qualifies. Essence does because she was a member of the Untitled.


I need to re-read it, I can`t recall if it was especified that Magic needed to be Dark or if it was magic in general. That could well be true.




> I think Jason's slimmer build could be explained by his combat training by the All Caste, which from the flashbacks with Ducra, his fight with the Iron Rule and the clothes Jason wore during All Caste training is more reminiscent of Chinese traditional martial arts which often favors forms and other things over body building. Legendary masters of this art like Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan for most part don't look big.
> 
> That said, agree that Jason should be unpredictable and able to deceive his opponent with his large repertoire of fighting styles and strategic mind. And being a tough bastard on top of that.


Yup, at the very least he should be a tough bastard  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

As a point to curiosity about the Lazarus granting enchanted abilities thingie, a quick search led to Jason`s Batmanwiki page where one can read: 

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Jason_Todd

"Lazarus-Enhanced Capabilities: As of his perfect resurrection by the Lazarus Pit, he no longer ages & regenerates from injuries at a very fast rate, allowing him to perfectly cheat death on several occasions."

This was probably taken from an Encyclopedia itself but I`m starting to think that the reason this pops up in those is the assumption (a bit logical by adittion maybe) that because Ras Al gul or others who came back from the Pit (CW`s Arrow as well) maybe have displayed these, that Jason automatically also possess (or should) the same. 

Thoughts?

----------


## AJpyro

> As a point to curiosity about the Lazarus granting enchanted abilities thingie, a quick search led to Jason`s Batmanwiki page where one can read: 
> 
> http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Jason_Todd
> 
> "Lazarus-Enhanced Capabilities: As of his perfect resurrection by the Lazarus Pit, he no longer ages & regenerates from injuries at a very fast rate, allowing him to perfectly cheat death on several occasions."
> 
> This was probably taken from an Encyclopedia itself but I`m starting to think that the reason this pops up in those is the assumption (a bit logical by adittion maybe) that because Ras Al gul or others who came back from the Pit (CW`s Arrow as well) maybe have displayed these, that Jason automatically also possess (or should) the same. 
> 
> Thoughts?


Hm...sounds like a neat extra package. Don't think my rereads of of his series would seem like its close to death.

----------


## Orujo-man

> As a point to curiosity about the Lazarus granting enchanted abilities thingie, a quick search led to Jason`s Batmanwiki page where one can read: 
> 
> http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Jason_Todd
> 
> "Lazarus-Enhanced Capabilities: As of his perfect resurrection by the Lazarus Pit, he no longer ages & regenerates from injuries at a very fast rate, allowing him to perfectly cheat death on several occasions."
> 
> This was probably taken from an Encyclopedia itself but I`m starting to think that the reason this pops up in those is the assumption (a bit logical by adittion maybe) that because Ras Al gul or others who came back from the Pit (CW`s Arrow as well) maybe have displayed these, that Jason automatically also possess (or should) the same. 
> 
> Thoughts?


In both continuities Jason grew from a teenager to a young adult, he is older.

RHATO never said anything about healing factor or magical powers thanks to the Lazarus Pit. Maybe he has powers of Lazarus Pit, but until the writer(s) say anything of that in his own series I don't consider these speculations as canon.

I didn't read all the stuff of the old continuity, but in the new I don't remenber anything of that.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> See, that`s where his dirty figthing mindset could shine the most. He should let opponents make whatever preconceived notion about whether he`s just a sharpshooter or a tank to lure them in and then if need be surprise them by either using the esoteric training he`s received and/or the Al Blades. 
> 
> Even without his world training/Al Castle backgrounds, he should be a tuff bastard to put down. Jason is imo the most stubburn and flat out heart out of everyone save Bruce. That`s exacty in what they resemble the most. They don`t quit. They don`t beg. You either put them down or you`re the one kissing the floor. Reminds me a bit of the ending of "Warrior" of Tom Hardy, when even losing he was shocking everyone with his sheer guts:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27_H7xumAbA
> 
> This is what Jason is. someone who lost about everything and came back, teeths grinding.


Hardy' character in Warrior us exactly how I picture the ideal Jason to be, but with dirty fighting, various martial art skills, and the strategic mind. 

He should be the the most brutal/savage of the Robins. Also the complete opposite of Dick. Being trained by Bronze Tiger doesn't hurt either. I'D have on par, if not a bit better than Dick. Mainly because of his stamina, and durability, plus his dirty/misdirecting style of fighting.

He should be a tough out for Bruce.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> In both continuities Jason grew from a teenager to a young adult, he is older.
> 
> RHATO never said anything about healing factor or magical powers thanks to the Lazarus Pit. Maybe he has powers of Lazarus Pit, but until the writer(s) say anything of that in his own series I don't consider these speculations as canon.
> 
> I didn't read all the stuff of the old continuity, but in the new I don't remenber anything of that.


Maybe it just strengthened/enhanced him to the point that he looked like an adult?

----------


## AJpyro

> Maybe it just strengthened/enhanced him to the point that he looked like an adult?


That could be a point. Whenever Ra's gets in, he's restored to a younger age, most likely his prime. So would the LP do the same with Jason? Age him up to his prime?

Cause if so, then that should have some messed up implications for Jason's body.

----------


## G-Potion

> As a point to curiosity about the Lazarus granting enchanted abilities thingie, a quick search led to Jason`s Batmanwiki page where one can read: 
> 
> http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Jason_Todd
> 
> "Lazarus-Enhanced Capabilities: As of his perfect resurrection by the Lazarus Pit, he no longer ages & regenerates from injuries at a very fast rate, allowing him to perfectly cheat death on several occasions."
> 
> This was probably taken from an Encyclopedia itself but I`m starting to think that the reason this pops up in those is the assumption (a bit logical by adittion maybe) that because Ras Al gul or others who came back from the Pit (CW`s Arrow as well) maybe have displayed these, that Jason automatically also possess (or should) the same. 
> 
> Thoughts?


One of the reviewers I know actually takes Jason's quote in Future's End issue, "If I have to live--and apparently I do-- I'm going to do my part to make things better for all the regular people who don't know the "joy" of being immortal" in the literal sense, since "joy" being in the quotation marks and everything. It will be interesting if Jason can still age, but can't die from injuries. He just doesn't know about it yet.

----------


## Aahz

> Hardy' character in Warrior us exactly how I picture the ideal Jason to be, but with dirty fighting, various martial art skills, and the strategic mind. 
> 
> He should be the the most brutal/savage of the Robins. Also the complete opposite of Dick. Being trained by Bronze Tiger doesn't hurt either. I'D have on par, if not a bit better than Dick. Mainly because of his stamina, and durability, plus his dirty/misdirecting style of fighting.
> 
> He should be a tough out for Bruce.


Unfortunately many writers don't seem willing to show him like this in the cross overs.

----------


## Aioros22

Very interesting info all around folks. Not sure even about the enchanting part tho. At least Pre Flashpoint, Jason didn`t seem to come back older but at around the same age he died, or am I remembering it wrong? I still recall some talk post Hush about the supposed white strand of hair. I always though I wouldn`t mind it as long the Lazarus was indeed supposed to do that. 

@Toofly, yeah. He should still be tactical and ranged but I hope writers also make him shine in other details, like his thoughness, willpower an stamina. All that coupled with his misdirection game to create openings. I wonder if Jason`s connection with Ben Turner stands after Rebirth, we`ll soon may get some reference in King`s Batman. 

I do appreciate Loedbell`s Jason being more elegant when ranged but I`d like to see that technical MMA savage side more often when up close. 

We just went throught another Devil`s Night, I hope you all had fun  :Cool: 

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...5gkuo1_500.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

> Hm...sounds like a neat extra package. Don't think my rereads of of his series would seem like its close to death.


Oh, it will never stop!




> One of the reviewers I know actually takes Jason's quote in Future's End issue, "If I have to live--and apparently I do-- I'm going to do my part to make things better for all the regular people who don't know the "joy" of being immortal" in the literal sense, since "joy" being in the quotation marks and everything. It will be interesting if Jason can still age, but can't die from injuries. He just doesn't know about it yet.


Nice catch. On one hand it`s nice that the Pit and its side effects happen to be vague so it gets misterious and both readers and the main character are on similar terms of not knowing everything. That`s a cool storytelling trick.

----------


## Aahz

> At least Pre Flashpoint, Jason didn`t seem to come back older but at around the same age he died, or am I remembering it wrong? I still recall some talk post Hush about the supposed white strand of hair. I always though I wouldn`t mind it as long the Lazarus was indeed supposed to do that.


If you are talking about Lost Days or Batman Annual #25, it was anyway a little bit wired since he didn't really visible age until he was thrown in the pit. Despite several years passing before that.


His age is imo in general messed up, based on the timeline he and Tim should be actually around the same age, and especially the new 52 ages where Jason is suddenly almost Dicks age and Tim is only 16 (and Damian suddenly 13) doesn't make much sense imo.

----------


## G-Potion

> @Toofly, yeah. He should still be tactical and ranged but I hope writers also make him shine in other details, like his thoughness, willpower an stamina. All that coupled with his misdirection game to create openings. I wonder if Jason`s connection with Ben Turner stands after Rebirth, we`ll soon may get some reference in King`s Batman. 
> 
> I do appreciate Loedbell`s Jason being more elegant when ranged but I`d like to see that technical MMA savage side more often when up close. 
> http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...5gkuo1_500.jpg


Talking of fighting up close, as much as I love his fight with Artemis, I wish it showed a bit more of the knife vs axe fight. It shows Jason really knows his martial arts, countering Artemis's ranged weapon with a fast, close range weapon. A shame it was interrupted before Jason manage to find an opening to get into Artemis's space.

----------


## Aioros22

> If you are talking about Lost Days or Batman Annual #25, it was anyway a little bit wired since he didn't really visible age until he was thrown in the pit. Despite several years passing before that.
> 
> 
> His age is imo in general messed up, based on the timeline he and Tim should be actually around the same age, and especially the new 52 ages where Jason is suddenly almost Dicks age and Tim is only 16 (and Damian suddenly 13) doesn't make much sense imo.


Artists fall in the tendency of drawing Jason as the second eldest. If anything, Dick is the one who`s been de-age considerably for him and Jason to close the gap. Jason being older can be attributed to the time he`s spent training before he returned to Gotham but is also possible the Pit aged him a year or so. Maybe even training under Ducra could do the trick. 

They just haven`t been explicit about it and in general DC`s continuily bumps with chronologies tend to perpetually mess up character`s ages, starting from the Trinity and down.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Artists fall in the tendency of drawing Jason as the second eldest. If anything, Dick is the one who`s been de-age considerably for him and Jason to close the gap. Jason being older can be attributed to the time he`s spent training before he returned to Gotham but is also possible the Pit aged him a year or so. Maybe even training under Ducra could do the trick. 
> 
> They just haven`t been explicit about it and in general DC`s continuily bumps with chronologies tend to perpetually mess up character`s ages, starting from the Trinity and down.


I think the fact that they are constantly having to "de-age" Batman is the root of this age mess. If they didn't feel the need to de-age the older generation then the ages of the younger ones would remain constant. Of course then you get into the problem of having a middle aged or older Batman running around still fighting at peak proficiency that would have to be dealt with.

----------


## Aahz

> Artists fall in the tendency of drawing Jason as the second eldest. If anything, Dick is the one who`s been de-age considerably for him and Jason to close the gap. Jason being older can be attributed to the time he`s spent training before he returned to Gotham but is also possible the Pit aged him a year or so. Maybe even training under Ducra could do the trick.


Jasons absolute age makes probaly more sense then the one of the other Robins.

My problem is more the age difference. Jason was Robin for a very short time and Tim took over very soon after his death (even in the original comics it is said that the appeared only month after Jasons Death. So Jason beeing 3-4 years older than Tim (which is implied by current comics) is just strange for me. It really only works if Tim started at a much younger age than Dick and Jason.

----------


## Lhynn

> Well, about that... Tim doesn't have his own entry.
> 
> He's mentioned a fair bit, but does not have his own entry.


Hm, any reason for this?

----------


## RedQueen

> They just haven`t been explicit about it and in general DC`s continuily bumps with chronologies tend to perpetually mess up character`s ages, starting from the Trinity and down.


Yeah I can't believe New 52 made Wonder Woman only 23 (rebirth changed that) and Selina is only 23 too. And putting into perspective Selina was only a teenager when Bruce conceived Damian. New 52 Selina is more age appropriate for Dick and Jason and even Babs (considering Selina's bi) than Bruce. I hate that New 52 was so specific with ages when they should have left some characters ambiguous so their history couldn't be so confined.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Lobdell has said on twitter that there's no age defined for Jason (unlike Dick who was confirmed to be 21 by Grayson)

----------


## Aahz

> Lobdell has said on twitter that there's no age defined for Jason (unlike Dick who was confirmed to be 21 by Grayson)


It is confirmed that he became robin at 16 and died at 17.

And in B&RE it was said that you have to 20 to be immune against mothers mind controll.

Technically he could still be just 18, but how he is written and the team mates he gets make him look like he belongs to Dicks generation (but that started imo allready pre flashpoint).

----------


## Aioros22

In Jason`s case it is clear they are working from an age range instead of something especific. You can tell how the narration of his past since the start of RATHO goes along wth that. It fits between here and there, not one concrete year. 

Dick doesn`t get away with it because of his connection to Batman. What age Bruce is defines him and vice versa.

----------


## Aioros22

> It is confirmed that he became robin at 16 and died at 17.


Let`s see how Rebirth defines it. Or not. I personally always enjoyed if retroactively he was made Robin for two years instead of just one. Adding up his introduction, his 3 or 6 month training, his bridging between his pre crisis to post crisis, there`s alot of material you can salvage and let open by adding one single year before he dies.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It is confirmed that he became robin at 16 and died at 17.
> 
> And in B&RE it was said that you have to 20 to be immune against mothers mind controll.
> 
> Technically he could still be just 18, but how he is written and the team mates he gets make him look like he belongs to Dicks generation (but that started imo allready pre flashpoint).


Since Batman writers don't bother to properly write Jason and Lobdell only does very tangential references to other writers' work on RHATO, I think is pointless to take those "dates" as stone set facts.

Besides, is pointless to obsess over a fictional character's age anyways.

----------


## RedQueen

Lobdell's Jason has never struck me as someone in his teen years. Plus I kind of prefer that he's in the same age area as Dick and Barbara than a 16 year old Tim. I'd prefer 19 at youngest because that to me will always be the age he was the year he came back as Red Hood in Gotham and it feels like a lot of time has passed and that Jason has evolved past that Jason from UTRH.

But yeah I prefer ages to be ambiguous too as it allows continuity to be a little more fluid.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I can't wait to see the full cover.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Looking forward to seeing that full cover too.

----------


## Aioros22

Only the Aquaman variants have been this good. This is just insane quality!

----------


## Aioros22

> Lobdell's Jason has never struck me as someone in his teen years. Plus I kind of prefer that he's in the same age area as Dick and Barbara than a 16 year old Tim. I'd prefer 19 at youngest because that to me will always be the age he was the year he came back as Red Hood in Gotham and it feels like a lot of time has passed and that Jason has evolved past that Jason from UTRH.
> 
> But yeah I prefer ages to be ambiguous too as it allows continuity to be a little more fluid.


In terms of narrative it`s less of a prison. Kind of like the Man With No Name or the Road Warrior, you give Jason that age range and you don`t really need more than that. That way Loedbell can puzzle his past the way it has been like a mosaic of memories. Some pleasant, others less and I feel it can more impact that way because it leaves us craving for more pieces. 

Dick in contrast, because of Batman and Teen Titans needs an especific age and as we`ve seen over some reboots, that usually hampers him. So, trade for trade, I prefer Jay to not be chained so much by it.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

I think YJ season 3 will finally showcase Jason as a character on an ongoing DC show.

----------


## Frontier

> I think YJ season 3 will finally showcase Jason as a character on an ongoing DC show.


Well, Red Hood was originally supposed to serve Deathstroke's role in season 2, I believe.

----------


## AJpyro

> Well, Red Hood was originally supposed to serve Deathstroke's role in season 2, I believe.


Link to where this comparison comes from? Also would this be the one show where Jason kills the Joker?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s still aimed at a younger audience, so, dunno. 

I do recall by the time the Invasion Arc shows up (IIRC that was the title) and Jason was highligted among the fallen in the cave that there seeemd to have been planned him eventually showing up as Red Hood. Here`s hoping it gets to that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If Jason does indeed show on YJ, I hope he is more than just an enforcer for the Light. 

Possibly a pipe dream, but I'd love to see him leading the Outlaws instead.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I wanna see him interact with Tim Drake if he is in Young Justice season 3. Possibly have Dick Grayson show up in the altercation too.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think YJ season 3 will finally showcase Jason as a character on an ongoing DC show.


In official capacity at least. 

I`m with Beast Boy, I still think Red X is Jason Todd  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> In official capacity at least. 
> *I`m with Beast Boy, I still think Red X is Jason Todd*


I've always thought that too.

----------


## Aahz

> I've always thought that too.


I also still of the opinion that the DCAU-Tim Drake should count as Jason (despite the name).

----------


## RedQueen

> If Jason does indeed show on YJ, I hope he is more than just an enforcer for the Light. 
> 
> Possibly a pipe dream, but I'd love to see him leading the Outlaws instead.


Which outlaws? New 52 or Rebirth? I'd prefer the Rebirth team but if they gotta go with what's already been established I'd also love the clone version of Roy Harper and Jason be buds and Cheshire could round that crew out.

----------


## Aahz

> Which outlaws? New 52 or Rebirth? I'd prefer the Rebirth team but if they gotta go with what's already been established I'd also love the clone version of Roy Harper and Jason be buds and Cheshire could round that crew out.


I would go for the original Roy (Arsenal) over Clone Roy (Red Arrow). 
Jason is in this version roughly the age or Blue Beetle and therefore closer in age to Arsenal and his runaways than to Red Arrow and Cheshire, who are older than even the members of the original team.


Personally I would already happy when we would see a little bit of a (decently written and portrait) Jason in a flashback scene.

----------


## Alycat

> Which outlaws? New 52 or Rebirth? I'd prefer the Rebirth team but if they gotta go with what's already been established I'd also love the clone version of Roy Harper and Jason be buds and Cheshire could round that crew out.


Rebirth. No way will they put Starfire anywhere near Jason over Dick. Besides the Rebirth team is better.

----------


## kaimaciel

I always thought OG Roy Harper (Arsenal) and Jason would team up. The angry duo. Project Cadmus and Project Lazarus, both replaced by their mentors. It could work really well.

----------


## Aioros22

> I also still of the opinion that the DCAU-Tim Drake should count as Jason (despite the name).


When didn`t it? They never hid the amalgamation of the two. It`s flat out Jason`s background and character, right down to his ill fate with the Joker, with a little bit of computer savyness and another name.

----------


## Aioros22

> I always thought OG Roy Harper (Arsenal) and Jason would team up. The angry duo. Project Cadmus and Project Lazarus, both replaced by their mentors. It could work really well.


As far as fans think, they likely would. I`ve seen one or two fan vídeos of this pairing.

----------


## Aahz

> When didn`t it? They never hid the amalgamation of the two. It`s flat out Jason`s background and character, right down to his ill fate with the Joker, with a little bit of computer savyness and another name.


I see him more as a version of Jason than as a amalgamation of the two, since doesn't really have any defining Tim Drake traits. 
DCAU-Tim might have been a little bit more into computers than Jason, but it wasn't really such an important skill as for the comic Tim and more likely to do with him being created in the late 90s when privat computers were more common than during Jasons run in 80s.

----------


## RedQueen

> When didn`t it? They never hid the amalgamation of the two. It`s flat out Jason`s background and character, right down to his ill fate with the Joker, with a little bit of computer savyness and another name.


I've always get annoyed by whenever I see an animated Tim Drake because it usually means they've skipped over Jason or flat out ignore him.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I also still of the opinion that the DCAU-Tim Drake should count as Jason (despite the name).


Yeah, I pretty much call that version of him Jason in my head. So much of Jason's story became a part of DCAU-Tim's when they merged the characters. Heck DCAU-Tim even had a career ending encounter with the Joker.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I've always get annoyed by whenever I see an animated Tim Drake because it usually means they've skipped over Jason or flat out ignore him.


I always treated him as being Jason in all but name because he was far more "Jason" than "Tim" to me.

----------


## Aioros22

> I see him more as a version of Jason than as a amalgamation of the two, since doesn't really have any defining Tim Drake traits. 
> DCAU-Tim might have been a little bit more into computers than Jason, but it wasn't really such an important skill as for the comic Tim and more likely to do with him being created in the late 90s when privat computers were more common than during Jasons run in 80s.


I don`t disagree, I`m just being technical about it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I've always get annoyed by whenever I see an animated Tim Drake because it usually means they've skipped over Jason or flat out ignore him.


That`s why I was being technical about it. In this case it isn`t because they wanted to ignore anything but because by the time they wanted to introduce a second Robin, Tim was the one in the comics and didn`t want to lose the current readership. Hence the name. 

But of course, it`s Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

IIRC, this is all nicely laid out by Bruce Timm in his "Modern Masters" volume with a "Death In The Family" ilustration (in his usual animated style) next to the interview in the pages dedicated to the subject.

----------


## G-Potion

Hope? 

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797486412509519873

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797485748647641088

----------


## Aahz

> Hope? 
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797486412509519873
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797485748647641088


Would be nice if he would stay on the book, but he should start draw Jason taller, he is supposed to be nearly Bruce height and not a head shorter.

----------


## RedQueen

> Would be nice if he would stay on the book, but he should start draw Jason taller, he is supposed to be nearly Bruce height and not a head shorter.


I'm getting flashbacks to when Tim was drawn taller than Jason in a lot of arcs. Heck he is usually even drawn equal height to Dick and even taller than Babs who is meant to be 5'8.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hope? 
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797486412509519873
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/797485748647641088


Hell yeah. I really do hope this means he's sticking around. I could really use some good news after the shitty day I just had.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm getting flashbacks to when Tim was drawn taller than Jason in a lot of arcs. Heck he is usually even drawn equal height to Dick and even taller than Babs who is meant to be 5'8.


I prefer if they give him a bulkier and more intimating look like that.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m left scratching my head a bit here. I`m aware Tim is draw inconsistantly in terms of heights, but in which arcs was he depicted as taller than Jason?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

In Robin Rises Tim is taller than Jason but Gleason admitted that was a mistake on his part.

I like more when Jason is drawn lean and  toned like when Rocafort or Medri draw him.

----------


## Aahz

> In Robin Rises Tim is taller than Jason but Gleason admitted that was a mistake on his part.


But iirc only in a few images.




> I like more when Jason is drawn lean and  toned like when Rocafort or Medri draw him.


Medris Jason iirc relatively bulky or at least intimidating (At least in comparison to Rocafort and Soy). 

But my problem with Soy is less the look more how small he is in direct comparison to Bruce.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> But iirc only in a few images.
> 
> Medris Jason iirc relatively bulky or at least intimidating (At least in comparison to Rocafort and Soy). 
> 
> But my problem with Soy is less the look more how small he is in direct comparison to Bruce.


He said that Gleason admitted it was a mistake, so that's why it was only a few images.

And I agree with you on Soy. He needs to draw Jason bigger.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But iirc only in a few images.
> 
> But my problem with Soy is less the look more how small he is in direct comparison to Bruce.


You are aware that is done intentionally to play up the father and sons theme, right?

----------


## Aahz

> You are aware that is done intentionally to play up the father and sons theme, right?


Yeah, but I don't like it.

----------


## Aioros22

> In Robin Rises Tim is taller than Jason but Gleason admitted that was a mistake on his part.
> 
> I like more when Jason is drawn lean and  toned like when Rocafort or Medri draw him.


As far as stories go, those aren`t a lot of examples. That and Gleason himself admitting how it didn`t fit are good indicators for the general rule. 

Bruce being drawn taller and broader than everyone else is just the nature of the game, tho.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce being drawn taller and broader than everyone else is just the nature of the game, tho.


But the difference between him and Jason is usually not that big.




> As far as stories go, those aren`t a lot of examples. That and Gleason himself admitting how it didn`t fit are good indicators for the general rule.


Tims size varies really extremly in the current comics, sometime he is roughly Dicks and Jasons height and than he is suddenly more than a head shorter. Looks for me like they don't give the artists sufficient guidelines/informations.

----------


## Aioros22

I know you see Soy`s Jason a bit on the lean side, but the at least you`ll get buffer Jason in King`s Batman  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Buffer Jason for a potentially not well-written Jason? Not sure it's a fair trade.  :Cool:

----------


## RedQueen

I prefer Jason to be shaped more like a swimmer. I don't really see him as a super hulky dude.

----------


## Aahz

> Buffer Jason for a potentially not well-written Jason? Not sure it's a fair trade.


I really hope that the Batman writers, take some clues from RHatO, Last Crusade and the Arkham Knight Comics in the future.

----------


## Aioros22

> Buffer Jason for a potentially not well-written Jason? Not sure it's a fair trade.


Life`s a game sometimes, G  :Cool:

----------


## AJpyro

Guys look what I found:

https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers

Top 10. TOP 10.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I really hope that the Batman writers, take some clues from RHatO, Last Crusade and the Arkham Knight Comics in the future.


Arkham Knight is a terrible mess though.

----------


## Aahz

> Arkham Knight is a terrible mess though.


There are some problems with it (for example him selling his parents to Maroni), but at least the author showed Jason to be quite smart and bad ass, and thats something many other writers seem to hesitate to do.
When I compare his different origin stories Arkham Knight Genesis is the one that makes it the most clear that Jason was not just some ordinary street kid.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Tomasi went too far in his attempts to make Jason a badass that it turned him into a Mary Sue, punking every character he met regardless it was earned or not. And then it blatanly contradicted the game's event plus went with the "Jason was rotten" angle so no, it sucks.

Also, Jason is much more interesting when he IS an ordinary kid becoming worthy of being Robin out of sheer stubborness and willpower.

----------


## Aahz

> Tomasi went too far in his attempts to make Jason a badass that it turned him into a Mary Sue, punking every character he met regardless it was earned or not.


It was a little over the top but not much worse than the modern origin stories of the other Robins.




> plus went with the "Jason was rotten" angle so no, it sucks.


There were some good elements, the stuff he did before he met Batman was of, but the part between meting Batman and his death was good imo.




> Also, Jason is much more interesting when he IS an ordinary kid becoming worthy of being Robin out of sheer stubborness and willpower.


Problem is that most other writers never show the becoming worthy part (or currently being a worthy Batfamily member). It is often more the oposite.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Guys look what I found:
> 
> https://www.comixology.com/comics-best-sellers
> 
> Top 10. TOP 10.


I saw that too and it made me really happy. Personally, I'm enjoying this book far more than any other DC book at the moment and that says a lot given how much I've been enjoying the books on my pull these days.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I saw that too and it made me really happy. Personally, I'm enjoying this book far more than any other DC book at the moment and that says a lot given how much I've been enjoying the books on my pull these days.


NOOOOO! Not him!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Hell yeah. I really do hope this means he's sticking around. I could really use some good news after the shitty day I just had.


That's true. DC should just keep him on the book, regardless of any othere potential changes.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Buffer Jason for a potentially not well-written Jason? Not sure it's a fair trade.


Why would it be not well written? King is someone I'd want to write Jason, should Lobdell move on.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Tomasi went too far in his attempts to make Jason a badass that it turned him into a Mary Sue, punking every character he met regardless it was earned or not. And then it blatanly contradicted the game's event plus went with the "Jason was rotten" angle so no, it sucks.
> 
> Also, Jason is much more interesting when he IS an ordinary kid becoming worthy of being Robin out of sheer stubborness and willpower.


The angle of Jason being rotten, via his upbringing (which is worse in the Arkham verse)  and his rage, fits. Bruce was trying to save him from that ugliness, and failed.

Even the canon Jason is the same, somewhat, given how brutal he was as Robin, at times, and during UtRH. 

Jason, imo, is more interesting when he is accepting, but in control of his dark nature. He's not ordinary, at all. He's got the capacity for good, but, until Bruce, he had no reason to be good. As Robin, he's got two sides of himself clashing, but, as Red Hood, he can freely go between both sides. That makes him the most interesting of the Bat Fam.

----------


## Aahz

> Why would it be not well written? King is someone I'd want to write Jason, should Lobdell move on.


Most in most appearances in other Batman titles Jason was not written that great, including the one written by King. 
If one of the main Batman writers was actually interested into do something with Jason it would be great, but but for me it looks like he is again just in the series to have all Batfamily members in it and not because the writer has any big plans with him.

----------


## Aahz

> The angle of Jason being rotten, via his upbringing,  and his rage, fits. Bruce was trying to save him from that ugliness, and failed.


How Thomasi wrote his time as criminal was not really in line with who he is usually portrait. 
Normally Jason cared for his mother (and would definitely not sell her to Maroni) and stole because he had to to survive.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> How Thomasi wrote his time as criminal was not really in line with who he is usually portrait. 
> Normally Jason cared for his mother (and would definitely not sell her to Maroni) and stole because he had to to survive.


You forget that in the Arkham verse....they tried to sell off to Maroni to settle their debts, and would always remind him as they beat him enough to break bones. So yeah, the Arkham Knight Jason Todd being even more ruthless makes sense, as his story is WAY worse than the canon Jason. It also showed him being more resourceful, being able to make deals with mob bosses at 13 years old. Despite the horrible writing in the actual game, this Jason was a cerebral threat, more than a physical one. 

I'd like to see the canon Jason written that cunning, more consistently, along with the superior canon martial skill.

----------


## G-Potion

What do you guys think?

https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...08945948721152
https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...58177403981828
https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...50998443782146
https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...17679890616321

----------


## G-Potion

> Why would it be not well written? King is someone I'd want to write Jason, should Lobdell move on.


If he writes a Jason book, maybe. What we've got so far is King writing Jason in Robin Wars and Grayson#12, and one of them really felt like an insult to the character.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> If he writes a Jason book, maybe. What we've got so far is King writing Jason in Robin Wars and Grayson#12, and one of them really felt like an insult to the character.


I'll agree, it'd be better if he was actually invested in a Jason solo. So yeah, I agree that this "I Am Bane" story can go either way.




> What do you guys think?
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...08945948721152
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...58177403981828
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...50998443782146
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...17679890616321


Well...I wonder if he's gonna take over for Soy, or if he's just doing an arc.

Anyways...I'm not gonna lie, but I dig his Jason design more than Soy's. However, I hope that him drawing Bizzaro with the Supes costume doesn't mean that that will be what he wears all the time.

----------


## Alycat

> The angle of Jason being rotten, via his upbringing (which is worse in the Arkham verse)  and his rage, fits. Bruce was trying to save him from that ugliness, and failed.
> 
> Even the canon Jason is the same, somewhat, given how brutal he was as Robin, at times, and during UtRH. 
> 
> Jason, imo, is more interesting when he is accepting, but in control of his dark nature. He's not ordinary, at all. He's got the capacity for good, but, until Bruce, he had no reason to be good. As Robin, he's got two sides of himself clashing, but, as Red Hood, he can freely go between both sides. That makes him the most interesting of the Bat Fam.


Agreed. I really like Arkham Knight Jason. Also King Jason, cause I'm really unsure what people saw offensive  about it.

----------


## REAL

> What do you guys think?
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...08945948721152
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...58177403981828
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...50998443782146
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...17679890616321


Sad to see Soy off the book, but I can't wait to see what the new guy will bring to RH and I really appreciate his enthusiasm.

----------


## Aahz

> Also King Jason, cause I'm really unsure what people saw offensive  about it.


Not offensive (if we ignore the thing with Damian one shotting him) it was just not also not great. It is mostly the same problem Jason has in many appearences in the Batbook, he is just in the story because all Batfamily members are in it, but they are not really putting much effort into writing him or doing anything with him.

In Grayson #12 the punch felt for me ooc (I know some see that different) and appart from this he was again just crammed together with Tim (and Tim got at least a bigger scene in Issue #13) and with Robin War I still have the feeling that he and Tim were just put into a subplot that was originally intended for the We Are Robin Kids since the writer didn't really know what to do with them.

My opinion is still that Batman/Superman #26 was the only time that when Jason appeared in a Batfamily team up were the writer got him right.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Sad to see Soy off the book, but I can't wait to see what the new guy will bring to RH and I really appreciate his enthusiasm.


Guess I'm gonna have to be that guy (again). (Seems to happen with every artist change on this book I swear.) I'll have to see how his work looks when colored and inked but I really didn't like the Jason sketch at all. The helmet looks terrible. Not sure what's going on with it to be honest but it looks really bad to me. Bizzaro looks okay though so maybe there's hope. I really hope this isn't the start of another round of mediocre artists on this book though. That would really suck.

----------


## G-Potion

> Guess I'm gonna have to be that guy (again). (Seems to happen with every artist change on this book I swear.) I'll have to see how his work looks when colored and inked but I really didn't like the Jason sketch at all. The helmet looks terrible. Not sure what's going on with it to be honest but it looks really bad to me. Bizzaro looks okay though so maybe there's hope. I really hope this isn't the start of another round of mediocre artists on this book though. That would really suck.


He's good. His work on Deathstroke annual #2 was good as well as some other work I managed to get a look at a page or two. That said, without Soy, RHATO might lose its artistic identity that has been one of its strongest assets. That's what I'm mourning.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> He's good. His work on Deathstroke annual #2 was good as well as some other work I managed to get a look at a page or two. That said, without Soy, RHATO might lose its artistic identity that has been one of its strongest assets. That's what I'm mourning.


That annual was awesome as hell, and the art definitely complemented the writing.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I never said I wasn't gonna give him a chance. All I said was that I didn't care for his rendering of Jason's helmet and that makes me cautious about his work since I'm unfamiliar with it. Can't blame a guy for feeling a bit of concern when the track record on artists for this particular book has been less than stellar once they lose an artist that makes the book visually distinct. Just my opinion of course. I'm just tired of the artistic musical chairs they play with this title.

----------


## Aioros22

> The angle of Jason being rotten, via his upbringing (which is worse in the Arkham verse)  and his rage, fits. Bruce was trying to save him from that ugliness, and failed.
> 
> Even the canon Jason is the same, somewhat, given how brutal he was as Robin, at times, and during UtRH. 
> 
> Jason, imo, is more interesting when he is accepting, but in control of his dark nature. He's not ordinary, at all. He's got the capacity for good, but, until Bruce, he had no reason to be good. As Robin, he's got two sides of himself clashing, but, as Red Hood, he can freely go between both sides. That makes him the most interesting of the Bat Fam.


Like in everything you should strick a balance. Jason`s upbringing was brutal and under most writers being Robin is what saved him from a bad road, but it should be fundamental to remember what sort of criminal Jason was. The one from canon wouldn`t dream doing what the AKJ _had_ to do and I don`t recall if Tomasi stressed that hard enough but regardless it should be there, whereas the AKJ upbringing is uglier or not, which is certainly so. 

Even in canon you still have the Loedbell hanging-around-in-gangs-after-his-mother-dies-Jason and still use that to showcase what sort of person he was compared to the other kids. At the very least he should be someone who did what he did for the purpose of survival, not because he simply can or simply because. 

Overall I enjoyed the AK Jason. The game`s plotline isn`t perfect and Tomasi`s comic about the game isn`t it either. Personally I could live without that detail in the story about his mother but the verse is its own animal and these details we discuss can and are easily rewritten to fit a more coherent narative line while salvaging the impression and power of its general presentation. Despite that he still needed to have a counterpart in abilities and character and capacity for good for Bruce to have taken him in. 

In the end, I very much enjoy a Jason who doesn`t do it just because but to survive but at the same time who takes destiny (or tries to) in his own hands.

----------


## Aioros22

> Agreed. I really like Arkham Knight Jason. Also King Jason, cause I'm really unsure what people saw offensive  about it.


Nothing offensive, just nothing to write home about either. It`s been meh. But since his earlier handlings have been with other writers co plotting with him I am interested in reading how he handles Jason solo.




> Anyways...I'm not gonna lie, but I dig his Jason design more than Soy's. However, I hope that him drawing Bizzaro with the Supes costume doesn't mean that that will be what he wears all the time.


The sketch doesn`t really show much other than a sligthy different helmet. 

I hope Soy stays but one artist filling in here and there is always going to happen sooner or later. Creatives need to catch a break in this publishing format. As long the colorist stays as well and manages to bridge the distinct pallete to whoever comes in, it`s good. 

But they really need to balance that out, it ain`t easy. I kind of know how JT428 feels. RATHO seems like a platform for an artist to show his stuff.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I hope Soy stays but one artist filling in here and there is always going to happen sooner or later. Creatives need to catch a break in this publishing format. As long the colorist stays as well and manages to bridge the distinct pallete to whoever comes in, it`s good.


Having the colorist remain the same might help the transition a bit that's for sure. Having said that though sometimes colorists just don't work well with certain artists. The current artist and colorist mesh perfectly IMO but there's no guarantee that she will work as well with the new artist. 




> But they really need to balance that out, it ain`t easy. I kind of know how JT428 feels. RATHO seems like a platform for an artist to show his stuff.


What they need to do is to get an artist and then stick with them for a bit. This title has had a really bad revolving door policy so far as artists go that could give Arkham a run for its money and that just frustrates me to no end. It feels to me like they are letting the good ones slip through their fingers all the damned time leaving mediocre ones to step into their shoes and I'm sick of it. Not saying this one is in that category at all but. having checked out some of his Deathstroke pages I find it doesn't really excite me as much as Soy's art did. (My own opinion)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Seriously bummed out at the possibility of Colak replacing Soy as the series' artist. While Colak is a really competent artist, I don't think his pseudo realistic style would work with the bombastic, "action movie" feeling of Lobdell's scripts. Plus that Red Hood sketch shown earlier not only makes the helmet look really busy but Jason himself looks too bulky and not very memorable.

I seriously don't understand DC. Not only Soy mentioned recently to be happy and willing to work on the title but his art is an important element on the book success'. Why make that boneheaded change?

----------


## JasonTodd428

Because having an artistic revolving door is the story of this book's existence.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Darn right its a bone-headed move. Soy was the best thing to happen to RH in a damned long time and now they pull this nonsense.

----------


## G-Potion

As far as i know, artist's contract is usually a 6 issue contract, different from writer's 12 issue one. Maybe Soy already had another job offer elsewhere before any plan to renew his RHATO contract takes place. I only hope there is door for him to come back to the title eventually.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## Aahz

> Also, Jason is much more interesting when he IS an ordinary kid becoming worthy of being Robin out of sheer stubborness and willpower.


That was more Steph than Jason. And even Steph is apparently now suddenly a genius  :Confused: .

----------


## JasonTodd428

> 


Love this cover.

----------


## Caivu

> That was more Steph than Jason. And even Steph is apparently now suddenly a genius .


Steph is hardly a genius now. She's just good with computers and solving puzzles. Not the same thing as being a genius.

----------


## Lhynn

> Steph is hardly a genius now. She's just good with computers and solving puzzles. Not the same thing as being a genius.


Shes a genius daughter of two genius. She can also make quality costumes out of thin air. This runs contrary to everything steph was pre flashpoint, but oh well.

----------


## Aahz

> She's just good with computers and solving puzzles. Not the same thing as being a genius.


At least that is afaik something she wasn't was never to shown to be good in pre flashpoint. But we will probably have to way untill we get a more Steph centric story to really see how smart she is now and if it sticks.

But the thing is even she has now something she is good in, and is less ordinary and more badass than before flashpoint. And they did similar things with other characters (Tim beeing a genius and olypic athlete, Dick having body reading), Jason is on the other hand in his new 52 origin imo less bad ass than in the original.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> At least that is afaik something she wasn't was never to shown to be good in pre flashpoint. But we will probably have to way untill we get a more Steph centric story to really see how smart she is now and if it sticks.
> 
> But the thing is even she has now something she is good in, and is less ordinary and more badass than before flashpoint. And they did similar things with other characters (Tim beeing a genius and olypic athlete, Dick having body reading),* Jason is on the other hand in his new 52 origin imo less bad ass than in the original.*


Well these days his "stealing the tires from the Batmobile" origin is back in place so the N52 one doesn't really carry the weight it used to anyway.

----------


## Aahz

> Well these days his "stealing the tires from the Batmobile" origin is back in place so the N52 one doesn't really carry the weight it used to anyway.


There are still elements missing or changed, like Jason actually hitting Bruce with the tire iron. And it didn't got more bad ass, like the ones of the other characters.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That was more Steph than Jason. And even Steph is apparently now suddenly a genius .


No

Steph was already the daughter of criminal and everything she did stemmed from that. Jason was a poor kid willing to do whatever was necessary to survive in the streets but as long it wouldn't hurt anyone. He wasn't someone with an unrealistic origin like Dick or privileged as Tim, Jason was one of the kids you meet all the time in a big city. THAT was what it made him special.

And quite frankly, as long his heart is in the right place I couldn't care less if he's more or less "badass".

----------


## joybeans

Posts about Steph have been moved to the Steph thread

----------


## JasonTodd428

> There are still elements missing or changed, like Jason actually hitting Bruce with the tire iron. And it didn't got more bad ass, like the ones of the other characters.


Jason hitting Bruce with the tire iron wasn't what made his Post-Crisis origin "bad ass" to me. What did was his managing to steal the tires from the freaking Batmobile. That took balls and I'm happy enough with just that being reinstated as it clearly shows just how bad ass he is.

----------


## REAL

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #7
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL  *Art by guest artist MIRKO CLARK*  Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH  Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> how do you solve a problem like Bizarro?! Now that Black Mask is defeated, Artemis continues her quest for the Bow of Raa weapon of immense power. Meanwhile, Jason is dealing with an immense power of his ownBizarro. Whats to be done about such a volatile creatureand is he too dangerous to be kept alive?
> On sale FEBRUARY 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T


I don't think you guys have to worry about Soy leaving because Marko apparently will be only in the book for a short time.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason hitting Bruce with the tire iron wasn't what made his Post-Crisis origin "bad ass" to me. What did was his managing to steal the tires from the freaking Batmobile. That took balls and I'm happy enough with just that being reinstated as it clearly shows just how bad ass he is.


Jason stealing the tires Batmobile is just a tiny part of his origin there are a lot of other elements that show that Jason was a worthy Robin, that don't appear in the modern origin and most people seem to completely forget about.

While the old origin is quite dated imo it shows very clearly that Jason is actually a good kid and only steals because he has to and doesn't want to become part of Ma Guns gang, that he quite good care for himself and doesn't need Bruce and that he is quite talented and not an ordinary kid (you see him for example pull the vanishing trick on Bruce, and quite easily take out some of Ma Guns kids).
In the second part of the story (that people usually completely forget) it is shown that he is smart enough to understand how Two-Face thinks and it shown how he over comes his anger about Two-Face killing his father and rescuing his life in the end.

The Modern origins are imo lacking in comparison, especially when all the other Batfamily members are all already shown to be olympic level athletes, geniuses and/or world class Assassins before being trained by Batman. Jason being the best runner in Crime Ally (like in Genesis) seems than just appropriate. 
The All-Caste stuff went in that direction (maybe a little bit to much under Tynion) but it is now ignored by the writers to a degree that it is not even sure if it really still canon.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't think you guys have to worry about Soy leaving because Marko apparently will be only in the book for a short time.


Thank god for that.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think you guys have to worry about Soy leaving because Marko apparently will be only in the book for a short time.


Thanks for the good news! Was a bit stressed out about this. Also, fun cover!

----------


## TooFlyToFail

Guest artists are usually pretty good, and I've liked what I've seen of Marko's style. 

Looking forward to seeing how this issue pans out.

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## JasonTodd428

> I don't think you guys have to worry about Soy leaving because Marko apparently will be only in the book for a short time.


That is good news and that is a great cover. I can't wait to see what happens in the issue.

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## Aioros22

> I don't think you guys have to worry about Soy leaving because Marko apparently will be only in the book for a short time.


That`s good news but boy, I wouldn`t mind a GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI arc on Outlaws. I just love his work.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason stealing the tires Batmobile is just a tiny part of his origin there are a lot of other elements that show that Jason was a worthy Robin, that don't appear in the modern origin and most people seem to completely forget about.
> 
> While the old origin is quite dated imo it shows very clearly that Jason is actually a good kid and only steals because he has to and doesn't want to become part of Ma Guns gang, that he quite good care for himself and doesn't need Bruce and that he is quite talented and not an ordinary kid (you see him for example pull the vanishing trick on Bruce, and quite easily take out some of Ma Guns kids).
> In the second part of the story (that people usually completely forget) it is shown that he is smart enough to understand how Two-Face thinks and it shown how he over comes his anger about Two-Face killing his father and rescuing his life in the end.
> 
> The Modern origins are imo lacking in comparison, especially when all the other Batfamily members are all already shown to be olympic level athletes, geniuses and/or world class Assassins before being trained by Batman. Jason being the best runner in Crime Ally (like in Genesis) seems than just appropriate. 
> The All-Caste stuff went in that direction (maybe a little bit to much under Tynion) but it is now ignored by the writers to a degree that it is not even sure if it really still canon.


Yeah, but let`s put it this way: Tim Drake being already all that before meeting Batman hasn`t exactly been well received by his fanbase. Jason on the other hand, even in the somewhat changed origin of the reboot was like Dick. They had surely qualities that set them apart from kids in the same respective enviorments. The whole I just outdid Talia - and busted gangs Jason is before he trained under Batman. In either case (Pre-Post Crisis, New52 and Rebirth) Jay was shown in origins to be self reliable, gutsy, brave, a figther, a quick thinker and despite his problems, with the heart in the right track. 

Like Dick, it`s simply not as overboard on the whole as the N52 Tim origin. But I wouldn`t want it to be, it simply doesn`t work. They need to start in a more normal level. 

With Ma Gun and her school back, that backstory is back waiting to be expanded if Loedbell and co wish it and with Loedbell himself saying he didn`t erased the Al Caste background, I have no major grips on that.

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## Aahz

> Jason on the other hand, even in the somewhat changed origin of the reboot was like Dick. They had surely qualities that set them apart from kids in the same respective enviorments. The whole I just outdid Talia - and busted gangs Jason is before he trained under Batman. In either case (Pre-Post Crisis, New52 and Rebirth) Jay was shown in origins to be self reliable, gutsy, brave, a figther, a quick thinker and despite his problems, with the heart in the right track.


Imo the old origin showed it clearer, in the new one you don't really have a comaparison between him and "normal" street kids. And especially with all the baggage the character has, I think it would help if they would really spell out a few areas where he excels (I think that could also help the writers). 




> Like Dick, it`s simply not as overboard on the whole as the N52 Tim origin. But I wouldn`t want it to be, it simply doesn`t work. They need to start in a more normal level.


Dick as one of the world best acrobats (is the thing with the quadrupole somersault  still canon in the new 52), body reading and the whole Grayson of Gotham stuff is hardly on a normal level and quite above the original version.

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## Aioros22

> Imo the old origin showed it clearer, in the new one you don't really have a comaparison between him and "normal" street kids. And especially with all the baggage the character has, I think it would help if they would really spell out a few areas where he excels (I think that could also help the writers).


What am I missing? Even in the changed origin he was shown taking down gang members, surviving in the streets alone and later learning a deadly martial arts technique that Talia couldn`t hope to replicate on her own, despite the formal training she had. 




> Imo Dick as one of the world best acrobats (is the thing with the quadrupole somersault  still canon in the new 52), body reading and the whole Grayson of Gotham stuff is hardly on a normal level and quite above the original version.


I was mentioning Dick as he was when he started, before he met Bruce.

----------


## G-Potion

> That`s good news but boy, I wouldn`t mind a GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI arc on Outlaws. I just love his work.


A Camuncoli arc and then a Scalera arc.  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What am I missing? Even in the changed origin he was shown taking down gang members, surviving in the streets alone and later learning a deadly martial arts technique that Talia couldn`t hope to replicate on her own, despite the formal training she had.


I'm not sure what is missing to be honest. Maybe its a little more watered down because it wasn't told in a nice, neat package like before but the salient points are still there and now with Rebirth one can even say all of those other events, such as his time with Ma Gunn, are canon again. To be honest I'd rather they "hit the high points" and then moved on with things. I don't really need a complete retelling of all the details of his origin since I've already lived through it. Jason was Robin at the time I started to seriously buy comics and I can read either one of his origins by simply pulling the relevant comic out of my collection if I wanted to.

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## Aahz

> What am I missing? Even in the changed origin he was shown taking down gang members, surviving in the streets alone and later learning a deadly martial arts technique that Talia couldn`t hope to replicate on her own, despite the formal training she had.


When did he took down gangs in the new 52? When it come to surviving on the streets I have the impression that the original version was better at it despite being much younger. And second half of his old origin also showed him solve case (in the end) which was sofar also not shown in the new 52.
Learing this magic punch and in general learnig martial arts from Kung-Fu by just watching them was a good idea, but sofar it was never brought up again.


The thing is Jason is a character that was really inconsistently written in the past, and in some cases was even said to be just a dumb brute, clearly defining, showing and spelling out what he is good in would help him at this point much more than making just some subtle hints that are ignored by the next writer. 

I mean look at Tim he is not only seen as the smartest Robin because of his showing, but because we are blatantly told it in every second issue, and by nearly every character. That might not be the most elegant way of writing but is a pretty effective way to give a character a reputation.




> I was mentioning Dick as he was when he started, before he met Bruce.


he had the acrobatic skills and the Body reading already before he met Bruce.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> When did he took down gangs in the new 52? When it come to surviving on the streets I have the impression that the original version was better at it despite being much younger. And second half of his old origin also showed him solve case (in the end) which was sofar also not shown in the new 52.
> 
> *Learing this magic punch and in general learnig martial arts from Kung-Fu by just watching them was a good idea, but sofar it was never brought up again.*
> 
> 
> The thing is Jason is a character that was really inconsistently written in the past, and in some cases was even said to be just a dumb brute, clearly defining, showing and spelling out what he is good in would help him at this point much more than making just some subtle hints that are ignored by the next writer.


God no. I want a relatable kid from the streets not a whinier Anakin Skywalker.

But seriously, I don't understand that fixation for having Jason be an utter badass that is making Bruce a favor for becoming Robin. Tynion did that during his run and was an utter disaster that harmed the book irremediably. Lobdell's approach of making _human and fallible_ is better way to handle him since it makes the reader invested on him. God knows DC has too many "I'm the best because I'm the protagonist" characters already.

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## Aahz

> But seriously, I don't understand that fixation for having Jason be an utter badass that is making Bruce a favor for becoming Robin.


I want him just presented as someone who is as good as the other Robins (and Batgirls). And if you look how much they were hyped up now, an ordinary street kid isn't really doing it. The alternative would be that they tone the rest of the Batfamily back to normal (= 70s-90s powerlevel) but I don't see that happening. It is not necessary a problem for his own series (even if would like to get few more action scenes), but for stuff like the Eternals. And like I said spelling his traits more clearly out would maybe help the writers to write him more consistent.

And if Jason would actually be better than Dick at something, we could maybe finally rid of these "I will never be as good as Dick"-crap, and the character would suddenly be much less whiny.
And if you look what special powers the other Batfamily members have now the ability to learn martial arts moves by just seeing them is not that over the top.

----------


## Aioros22

> When did he took down gangs in the new 52? When it come to surviving on the streets I have the impression that the original version was better at it despite being much younger..


Tastes will vary. In the original origin the only goons that we saw initially were Ma`s at her school. 

In the pre-Rebirth origin we see Jason being part of a street gang and setting himself apart due to his moral code and sheer resourcefullness. IIRC, he took down at least one of the gang members that I recall, I think to save someone, let alone what he does later with Talia`s involvement which is more op than what Dick and Barbara have done before meeting Bruce. New52 Tim may be an expection but I`ll adress that up below.  




> And second half of his old origin also showed him solve case (in the end) which was sofar also not shown in the new 52.


The connection with Two Face? He was already with Bruce by then. 




> Learing this magic punch and in general learnig martial arts from Kung-Fu by just watching them was a good idea, but sofar it was never brought up again.


The magical punch may have not, but his learning MA has. 




> The thing is Jason is a character that was really inconsistently written in the past, and in some cases was even said to be just a dumb brute, clearly defining, showing and spelling out what he is good in would help him at this point much more than making just some subtle hints that are ignored by the next writer.


Only post death writers took the time to define him in those terms. Any origin of Jason actually shows otherwise. Way I see you have to really go with the bad exemples like certain spots in Eternal to make that kind of case, but that isn`t the majority of writers or stories. 




> I mean look at Tim he is not only seen as the smartest Robin because of his showing, but because we are blatantly told it in every second issue, and by nearly every character. That might not be the most elegant way of writing but is a pretty effective way to give a character a reputation.


I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase. 




> he had the acrobatic skills and the Body reading already before he met Bruce.


I must have forgotten about it. It only pops up when he`s using an especific tech called Hypno. Seems like a case of telling it, not showing it.

----------


## Lhynn

> I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase.


Hated, and it made him look like more of an idiot because he couldnt deliver.

----------


## Aioros22

> I want him just presented as someone who is as good as the other Robins (and Batgirls)


Mostly, he is. I get what you`re saying because it`s easier for a number of writers to prop Grayson over Jason because he`s the original and in certain minds, "the" Robin, but every origin Jason`s had they`ve told us about the characteristics that we all came to enjoy about the character. It`s simply that he`s also got more demons (Jung called it "The Shadow" than any well adjusted Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon or Tim Drake. 

I get that in your view a set of rules about his qualities and what he can or not do would make eveyone`s life easier, sort of like a rpg came stats. But storytelling is more fluid than that- in a way so are the games - you win and lose qualities until the game ends. 

I repeat myself alot but I think balance is usually the winner in working great characters and they haven`t done a bad job at all to a character that was in limbo for decades. A little patience..that and not expecting every writer to get his voice pat down or write him well or even enjoying it so. It works for every character. For every showing like beating Cass on points on her game you have a showing like, I dunno, looking like a dumbo against Bane. For every character moment like impressing Artemis, Bruce or Black Mask and connecting with Bizarro you have...I dunno, a less confidente guy tellng a girl he previously rejected that he`s not Dick Grayson, mop mop. Some writers will always take the easier route for a narrative cliché because reasons. 

You kind of need to accept that Jason will require time to building and pushing set his own star up and that bad stories/showings are naturally part of every character`s life.

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## Aahz

Here thats from his his original origin, and imo way more impressive that anything we saw him sofar do in the new 52 pre meeting Batman (imo including the magical punch issue).

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## Aioros22

I love the sequence, but alas if you`re talking op(ness) and what looks more impressive, I`ll take standing your moral guns over your crazy pals at a gang and learning a magical punch on the go. I`ll take either of them tho, because it`s more impressive physically than anything Tim or Grayson first did if you`re talking of classic origins. 

This is what the argument looks to me. Basically picking one good example over another.

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## Aahz

> Tastes will vary. In the original origin the only goons that we saw initially were Ma`s at her school.


 His new origin stories (RHatO isn't really an origin story) had no goons, and taking out 3 that a far bigger then him (and little bit later a single one with a gun) at one is quite feat.




> The connection with Two Face? He was already with Bruce by then.


 But in the new 52 safar we see him as Robin either screwing up or beeing out of control.




> The magical punch may have not, but his learning MA has.


 The ability to learn after just seeing it once, was never mentioned again afaik.




> I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase.


 The biggest complains is that they dropped the connection with Dick and had him nearly kill his parents. Him being a genius is afaik mostly accepted by everyone.




> I must have forgotten about it. It only pops up when he`s using an especific tech called Hypno. Seems like a case of telling it, not showing it.


It was used quite often during Higgins run. And is still mentioned once in a while.

----------


## Aahz

> Mostly, he is. I get what you`re saying because it`s easier for a number of writers to prop Grayson over Jason because he`s the original and in certain minds, "the" Robin, but every origin Jason`s had they`ve told us about the characteristics that we all came to enjoy about the character. It`s simply that he`s also got more demons (Jung called it "The Shadow" than any well adjusted Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon or Tim Drake.


In the last cross overs basically every one got proped over him. He got more demons, but that means that the writers also need to show the bright sides to balance it out. But the writers seem very hesitate to do it, when he is around the rest of the family.




> You kind of need to accept that Jason will require time to building and pushing set his own star up and that bad stories/showings are naturally part of every character`s life.


I don't have the feeling that he gets the same push everybody else gets, and thats now in a phase where he is still quite new back in the family and that will probably define his role in the family on the long run quite dangerous.
I have at least not the feeling that the writers out side of his own series put much effort in building him up, more on the contrary.

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## Aioros22

> In the last cross overs basically every one got proped over him. He got more demons, but that means that the writers also need to show the bright sides to balance it out. But the writers seem very hesitate to do it, when he is around the rest of the family.
> 
> I don't have the feeling that he gets the same push everybody else gets, and thats now in a phase where he is still quite new back in the family and that will probably define his role in the family on the long run quite dangerous. I have at least not the feeling that the writers out side of his own series put much effort in building him up, more on the contrary.


That takes time. He was there first than many but he`s been around less than others. The Eternals were crap, but there were some nice moments where he stole the show. Maybe less than Grayson or Tim sure but a good deal of writers gravitate towards them by being the nice boys. But you gotta understand that it comes from a place and doesn`t change overnight. 

All I am saying is, without losing the goal of upping his profile and thus be critical of some things, we should not lose the fact we should be grateful of what good we`ve had. Sometimes that good has _been better_ than what others fanbase have had.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> God no. I want a relatable kid from the streets not a whinier Anakin Skywalker.
> 
> But seriously, I don't understand that fixation for having Jason be an utter badass that is making Bruce a favor for becoming Robin. Tynion did that during his run and was an utter disaster that harmed the book irremediably. Lobdell's approach of making _human and fallible_ is better way to handle him since it makes the reader invested on him. God knows DC has too many "I'm the best because I'm the protagonist" characters already.


Well we know he's not the best, but having him be the most versatile, or having a natural aptitude for violence, wasn't what made Tynion's arc suck. It was the writing.

You sound like Star Wars fans complaining that the politics is one of the main reasons the Prequels sucked, and didn't want it in the new movies. That how we got a bare bones, by the number movie.

Besides, why would Bruce NOT try to get extraordinary kids for his crusade? He'd only get kids who have the potential to surpass him.

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## Aahz

> I get that in your view a set of rules about his qualities and what he can or not do would make eveyone`s life easier, sort of like a rpg came stats. But storytelling is more fluid than that- in a way so are the games - you win and lose qualities until the game ends.


 Even in rps you can sometimes loose agianst a weaker opponent. But even in rpgs (I'm taking about classic pan and paper here), the game master has somehow to keep a balance between the charcters and design his plots in a way that every player can contribute something with his character, and gets his part of the spotlight or it just not fun for the players. And thats much easier if a characters can do something that the others can't, or is among the top fighters of the group.

----------


## Aahz

> Besides, why would Bruce NOT try to get extraordinary kids for his crusade? He'd only get kids who have the potential to surpass him.


Almost every other Batfamily member has gotten extraordinary traits, and especially in the last years the writers started to really emphasise them (just look for example how often Barbara's Eidetic memory is now used in her series) or tell us repeatedly how special these characters are (especially Dick).
In Jasons is the only character where I don't really see a real direction or any consistency.

----------


## Rise

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #7
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL  Art by guest artist MIRKO CLARK  Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH  Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> how do you solve a problem like Bizarro?! Now that Black Mask is defeated, Artemis continues her quest for the Bow of Raa weapon of immense power. Meanwhile, Jason is dealing with an immense power of his ownBizarro. Whats to be done about such a volatile creatureand is he too dangerous to be kept alive?
> On sale FEBRUARY 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T


Is that "Of Mice and Men" reference I'm seeing here?  :Big Grin: 

I'm glad that Lobdell isn't starting a new arc immediately and giving us a breather issue. Also, it's looks like Artemis hasn't joined Jason yet.

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## Aioros22

> Almost every other Batfamily member has gotten extraordinary traits, and especially in the last years the writers started to really emphasise them (just look for example how often Barbara's Eidetic memory is now used in her series) or tell us repeatedly how special these characters are (especially Dick).
> In Jasons is the only character where I don't really see a real direction or any consistency.


That last line is misleading as heck. Regardless, I feel that the origins, since that`s what this is about, lay out extraordinary traits on itself. We don`t agree on whether they are point out ad naseum, I know. You just mentioned Barbara`s photographic memory but so what? She doesn`t have Jason`s guts. She doesn`t learn techniques or is as adept in the figthing department as Jason is on a general rule. She doesn`t have his drive or willpower. Nobody in the family does, save Bruce. 

Dick having a sort of "body reading ability" has handled him nothing the few times it`s been mentioned. Hypnos is tech. Jason OTOH matches a character best known for such ability and fights a peer on his, all blind. 

Jason may indeed be more extraordinary *raw* than the others, but that doesn`t make him less extraordinary. And even if it did - which I don`t believe it does - but even if it did, the fact alone that he can match up with the others trought sheer hardwork instead of some fancy OP ability that comes out a blue moon, is extraordinary on itself. You require above standard focus and discipline to do that.

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## Aioros22

> Is that "Of Mice and Men" reference I'm seeing here? 
> 
> I'm glad that Lobdell isn't starting a new arc immediately and giving us a breather issue. Also, it's looks like Artemis hasn't joined Jason yet.


I never read the book before (my ever ongoing ignorance, thank the stars) but now that I read about it a tad, yeah I can see the vibe.

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## Aahz

> That last line is misleading as heck. Regardless, I feel that the origins, since that`s what this is about, lay out extraordinary traits on itself. We don`t agree on whether they are point out ad naseum, I know. You just mentioned Barbara`s photographic memory but so what? She doesn`t have Jason`s guts. She doesn`t learn techniques or is as adept in the figthing department as Jason is on a general rule. She doesn`t have his drive or willpower. Nobody in the family does, save Bruce. 
> 
> Dick having a sort of "body reading ability" has handled him nothing the few times it`s been mentioned. Hypnos is tech. Jason OTOH matches a character best known for such ability and fights a peer on his, all blind. 
> 
> Jason may indeed be more extraordinary *raw* than the others, but that doesn`t make him less extraordinary. And even if it did - which I don`t believe it does - but even if it did, the fact alone that he can match up with the others trought sheer hardwork instead of some fancy OP ability that comes out a blue moon, is extraordinary on itself. You require above standard focus and discipline to do that.


But the problem with Jasons abilities is that they come up in one single comic and are never used again. And him beeing the superior fighter was also (appart from the DotF tie in) never really acknowledged (which could have been done realtivly easily in his team ups with Tim and Barabra in the Eternals). He gets more beaten up than any other character (even in his own book).

But thats not just a problem with the orgin stories (more in general with the way how he is handled). From the origins I manly expect some contra point to the "Jason was as Robin only rage and screwed up all the time" thing. And that is imo even in Lobdells work missing. "Last Crusade" showed it much better.

----------


## Aioros22

Loedbell`s Jason as Robin just acnowledged how good of a student he was. Fast and high level learner. He did the same with him under Ducra and the Al Caste. Yes, he`s mention Jason as saying his younger days were met with rage before but I didn`t take that as intentionally setting him off as the screw up but merely to compare his later growth. It was his Robin gig that in the end set that difference. One needs to remind however that in previous volumes, Loedbell barely touched upon Jason`s Robin days, save a memory or a mention here and there and none of it was in any way shown in a negative light. I think there`s balance in that. 

The superior figther thing is IMO a bonus point. It`s nice if it`s adressed but things like taking down Shiva and matching Cass made him look much better than Dick. You had Tim fanboying over Jason`s abilities in the DOTF tie in. Despite the rushed ending of R:W, you had Damian and everyone else fawn at how smooth both Jason and Tim staged the whole fight to get all of them free. Despite being more protected than everyone else and being the youngest included, Damian is the one who gets routinaly (in Bat books at least) called the least capable figther. Bruce himself has told him so when directly comparing his level with the other former Robins. Jason, Tim and Dick were all kind of embarassed when Damian issued his challenges and any points he got on Tim and Jay were stolen by pushing especific emotional buttons so he could try to prove they weren`t much different than him. Then he ran off. Smart, but that`s about it. 

But I get it, you want something more palpable. Something more eye catching, more definite, like in Last Crusade where Jason in training was directly compared (and well!) with the man himself, let alone the former protege.

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## JasonTodd428

> [B]But the problem with Jasons abilities is that they come up in one single comic and are never used again. And him beeing the superior fighter was also (appart from the DotF tie in) never really acknowledged (which could have been done realtivly easily in his team ups with Tim and Barabra in the Eternals). *He gets more beaten up than any other character (even in his own book).*


Frankly, I think it's a case of other writers not really knowing what to do with this version of the character because that old "Jason is a screw-up" mentality keeps staying their hand. Also IMO the bolded is more a factor of the style in which Jason fights rather than a comment on his skills. He's more of a close quarters combatant then most of the others, despite his tendency to use ranged weapons like guns, so of course he's going to take more hits and get 'beat up' more so than they do. He's more 'hands on' (or maybe 'fists on' is better) about fighting than the others because of his life as a street kid while the others are, in general, a bit more evasive in combat, especially Dick who tends to be in almost constant motion when he fights.




> But thats not just a problem with the orgin stories (more in general with the way how he is handled). From the origins I manly expect some contra point to the "Jason was as Robin only rage and screwed up all the time" thing. And that is imo even in Lobdells work missing. "Last Crusade" showed it much better.


In my opinion Lobdell has been making a counter point to the old "Jason was a 'bad Robin' and a 'screw-up' belief the whole time and, to me,  his work with the character has been all about disproving that belief. It's not his fault other writers can't seem to grasp what he's getting at because they are more used to seeing Jason as "the screw-up". Let's not forget that it was writers back in the day that started and developed the "Jason died because he was a 'bad Robin' who screwed up" that has lead to later writers and even fans to believe that nonsense. He made a mistake sure but it had nothing to do with his being a 'screw up' and everything to do with wanting to protect his birth mother from what he perceived as someone who wanted to blackmail her due to her past. He even tried to protect her from the bomb even after she betrayed him to Joker out of a need to do so. His only mistake was trusting her in the first place and until they made the decision to kill him off he was not even being portrayed as being all that bad of a Robin either.

----------


## Aioros22

"Jason the screwup" is a blaming the victim cloth that was drapped around the caracter by some post death writers - up until he returned more or less, because it was easy and fit the contrast with whoever came afterwards. It was never something that came across in his actual stories because, as noted, every Robin has screwed up. But it fit the mold of what the office wanted. 

As for his figthing pedigree, I don`t think he gets beat up (and I find the expression "taken down" much more accurate) more than any others if you count all encounters. There are some issues like in Eternal and R:War where he comes across as a brawler over stye but those are issues in less than stellar stories, not general portraits. Don`t take this the wrong way folks, but I feel some fans still cling too much on the fear of writers fudging up with Jason as they have for a period of time and then fail to appreciate or see the good things done with the character since he came back. It`s a sorta victim syndrome and we colectivaly need to move beyond that. 

We`re not alone of course, the other fanbases deal with similar issues, albeigh slightly different.

----------


## Aahz

> In my opinion Lobdell has been making a counter point to the old "Jason was a 'bad Robin' and a 'screw-up' belief the whole time and, to me,  his work with the character has been all about disproving that belief.


If I look at his flashbacks to Jasons time as Robin it doesn't seem like that. Ok they are usually narrated by Jason, but the flashback emphasise mostly the bad stuff. Ok if you have a broader knowledge of Batman comics, you know that this wasn't all and the others had their screw-ups as well, but on their own the flashbacks are more enforcing the "screw-up myth" than debunking it.

Btw. I would really like to get a full length new 52 strory from Jasons tome as Robin (not narrated by him self) which would have space for a more balanced portrait, but that seems unfortunately something only Dick gets.

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## Aioros22

How much was it bad stuff? You had the memory that was given in RATHO#3 (IIRC) in the first volume, but that memory wasn`t negative or bad by any means. You mention it well, you need to take in account the context of what Jason is going throught at the moment. What was he feeling to let go that good memory? Detachment. That`s how the first RATHO actually starts. Then you have one of reconciliation right there in Rebirth, with the smiling picture, but this one isn`t left out, it`s shown, it`s reinforced by Jason`s narration that Red Hood may not be how Batman openly operates but he is what he needs sometimes, like it or not. 

I do agree on the note you touch about new generations meeting Jason. With so little of him as Robin and some of it being connected (it`s inevitable) with his later path, there could be a risk of new readers being too acostumed with that old label, but I think that extreme isn`t necessarily real. The former RHAA ends with a Robin Jason and Roy adventure that bridges animated nostalgia and is pretty fun with Robin saving a new friend. So when you say that there should be a few more stories that highlight moments like that I can only agree. In this case some more is only good.

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## Aioros22

On that note, my biggest beef with Eternal thus far hasn`t been showings or who takes down who, or even (shudder) character work but the absolute waste of Deacon Blackfire and a chance to use "The Cult" as part of Jason`s early backstory. Which incidently, now with Rebirth is possible again  :Cool:

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## JasonTodd428

> "Jason the screwup" is a blaming the victim cloth that was drapped around the caracter by some post death writers - up until he returned more or less, because it was easy and fit the contrast with whoever came afterwards. It was never something that came across in his actual stories because, as noted, every Robin has screwed up. But it fit the mold of what the office wanted. 
> 
> As for his figthing pedigree, I don`t think he gets beat up *(and I find the expression "taken down" much more accurate)* more than any others if you count all encounters. There are some issues like in Eternal and R:War where he comes across as a brawler over stye but those are issues in less than stellar stories, not general portraits. Don`t take this the wrong way folks, but I feel some fans still cling too much on the fear of writers fudging up with Jason as they have for a period of time and then fail to appreciate or see the good things done with the character since he came back. It`s a sorta victim syndrome and we colectivaly need to move beyond that. 
> 
> We`re not alone of course, the other fanbases deal with similar issues, albeigh slightly different.


"Taken down" is a better way to phase that for certain. And I agree that fans and writers are stuck in that mentality and that we all need to move beyond it. It would help though if writers outside of Lobdell would do something to push the character beyond that. Having said that though I simply think they don't really know how to think of him any other way, particularly if they grew up reading comics in the era of "Jason Todd the screw-up". Even as late as just before the reboot that idea was still very prevalent whenever his character was used or mentioned. Both fans and writers have been conditioned to see Jason in that way and it's very hard to break through that and to see him outside of that context. 




> If I look at his flashbacks to Jasons time as Robin it doesn't seem like that. Ok they are usually narrated by Jason, but the flashback emphasise mostly the bad stuff. Ok if you have a broader knowledge of Batman comics, you know that this wasn't all and the others had their screw-ups as well, but on their own the flashbacks are more enforcing the "screw-up myth" than debunking it.


It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal. He tells Roy that he can never be the hero that Roy thinks he can be but throughout that series and the previous one he has been shown to be exactly that. A hero with a moral code that, while it isn't Batman's, is still just as strong and noble. Lobdell has doing this over the course of the previous two series. He has Jason narrate something with that slant but then he turns around and shows us, through Jason's actions in whatever the current story, is that Jason is not the "screw-up" he thinks he is. 





> Btw. I would really like to get a full length new 52 strory from Jasons tome as Robin (not narrated by him self) which would have space for a more balanced portrait, but that seems unfortunately something only Dick gets.


I agree though that it would be interesting to see how someone outside of Jason would view his time as Robin. I'd love to see a story or two that delve into Jason's N52 time as Robin from the point of view of Bruce or Dick. I also think it would be interesting to see how Alfred viewed Jason at that time. There have been things touched on in flashbacks but those flashback being told through Jason's eyes are likely a bit skewed because of how he views himself.

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## Aioros22

> "Taken down" is a better way to phase that for certain. And I agree that fans and writers are stuck in that mentality and that we all need to move beyond it. It would help though if writers outside of Lobdell would do something to push the character beyond that. Having said that though I simply think they don't really know how to think of him any other way, particularly if they grew up reading comics in the era of "Jason Todd the screw-up". Even as late as just before the reboot that idea was still very prevalent whenever his character was used or mentioned. Both fans and writers have been conditioned to see Jason in that way and it's very hard to break through that and to see him outside of that context.


Right, before the reboot is understandable because simply put, Jason`s comeback is still fairly recent in terms of franchise history. Some writers dealt Jason with respect, like Alan Grant and a few others, but the prevelance of him being the screwup tend to fit the easy mold for the cautionary tale. I actually think that the label was more prominent when Tim was already set as Robin, instead of during that term because you couldn`t have him looking up at Jason as the sacrifise story while the body was still warm. 

As soon Tim was set in the role, you started to see those mentions because the cautionary tale became more important for the further maturity withn the role. 

I also think a few writers outside Loedbell pushed forward that notion instead of keeping that status quo: Grant Morrison (the rebooted take in Batman and Robin), Greg Pak, Tomasi, so it`s a start. And with every start, it starts with baby steps. I don`t want Jason to be burned with New52 level of Tim praise. Keep that way, it never does any favors. Keep building him up year after year to set him for the long haul. 




> "It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal. He tells Roy that he can never be the hero that Roy thinks he can be but throughout that series and the previous one he has been shown to be exactly that. A hero with a moral code that, while it isn't Batman's, is still just as strong and noble. Lobdell has doing this over the course of the previous two series. He has Jason narrate something with that slant but then he turns around and shows us, through Jason's actions in whatever the current story, *is that Jason is not the "screw-up" he thinks he is*.


And in a nutshell, that`s what it ends up being about. I do want Jason moving beyond that as well and RHATO set the wheels in motion from the start, but truly, emotional traumas and sorta have the tendency to go up and down a bit. Especially if he ends up dissapointed as he did by trying to reform Joker`s Daugther. That`s part of the process. 

Still (again) it`s a start that both Alfred and Bruce have been the ones to praise Jason the most (and Tim..) within the family. Bruce particularly has been doing it since the start of the reboot, despite his fears regarding Jason going dark side again. Because that`s what a parente does. And what a stark difference it was to the one time Alfred mentioned how "it`s not your fault, sir. The boy was destined to defy you" or something. Talk about victim shaming Al!

We all know why he said it. Your pancakes stink, man. 

Amazingly, in one story I actually enjoyed (Gotham Knights with Batgirl). 




> "I agree though that it would be interesting to see how someone outside of Jason would view his time as Robin. I'd love to see a story or two that delve into Jason's N52 time as Robin from the point of view of Bruce or Dick. I also think it would be interesting to see how Alfred viewed Jason at that time. There have been things touched on in flashbacks but those flashback being told through Jason's eyes are likely a bit skewed because of how he views himself.


Ah yes, this is likely Aazh`s biggest beef and is a nice one. We`ve seen what Bruce thinks and what Jason thinks. But I`d be nice to see others give their spin on his character in the early years, like Alfred, Leslie...even Dick.

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## Aahz

> It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal.


I know that that is the reason, but in the end it still results that we see Jasons time mostly shown in a very negative light. It would be nice to see references to stuff like Jason savin the life of Bruce (the Cult), Gordon (Ten Nights of the Beast), the complete Trinity (For the man how has everything) and the biggest character moment Two Face (Batman 411) or his role in Ledgends.

Something like Nighwing Year one or the Gotham Knight Issue, would also be ok. But imo to rid of that mentality many writer and fans have there needs to be a bigger emphasise on the positive sides.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Thing is, Lobdell's entire approach to Jason (and now Bizarro and Artemis) is to stop getting hung up on the past and what other people think of them. So, having a fluff piece of an outsider singing praises to Jason would undermine Lobdell's entire work on the character.

In the end whether Jason was good or not is irrelevant to his character, he's been defined as the guy who does the most with whatever life deals to him without compromising his ideals. In that context, scenes of Jason looking good or whatever is something only to stroke the ego of the fans.

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## Lhynn

> *In the end whether Jason was good or not is irrelevant to his character*, he's been defined as the guy who does the most with whatever life deals to him without compromising his ideals. In that context, scenes of Jason looking good or whatever is something only to stroke the ego of the fans.


Completely agree with this. especially bolded part. Doesnt matter how good or bad he was, what matters is how he tackles what comes with the baggage he comes with. And thats whats interesting to read about and thats why lodbell is killing it and his book is so good, hes focusing on what makes jason interesting, and he definitely doubled down on that on the last issue.

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## Aahz

> Ah yes, this is likely Aazh`s biggest beef and is a nice one. We`ve seen what Bruce thinks and what Jason thinks. But I`d be nice to see others give their spin on his character in the early years, like Alfred, Leslie...even Dick.


When did we really saw what Bruce thinks? Yeah but I think Jason getting some praise from other characters (like Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim and maybe even Damian) especially if it is a little bit more specific. Just look for example Bruce short reteling of Jasons origin in Death in the Family or the analysis of Jasons skills in Last Crusade.

And they really need to stop with stuff like this.
Batman & Robin Eternal9 3.jpg

Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Those examples are from Tynion and he's a terrible writer so?

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## Lhynn

> Those examples are from Tynion and he's a terrible writer so?


Hes better than lodbell. Strangely enough both are writing good books now. Which begs the question, what the hell was going on with the new 52?.

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## Aioros22

> When did we really saw what Bruce thinks?


Portrait scene, vouching for Jason within the JL, Morrison`s Batman&Robin where Jason takes on another identity, Pak`s Superman/Batman Annual, Batman: Eternal....




> Yeah but I think Jason getting some praise from other characters (like Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim and maybe even Damian) especially if it is a little bit more specific. Just look for example Bruce short reteling of Jasons origin in Death in the Family or the analysis of Jasons skills in Last Crusade


Always welcome. 




> And they really need to stop with stuff like this.
> Batman & Robin Eternal9 3.jpg
> 
> Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg


Ideally yes, but Aazh, you kind of should accept that not every writer will deliver or care to. Not every writer delivers or cares to regarding Dick Grayson and he`s the proverbial prodigial son. More than, that you need to accept that even writers who do, may come off short sometimes. 

That writer? Wrote Jason _punking Shiva_ and was part of the creative team that had him_ beat Cass on points_. 

You take the good, you take the bad. Everybody is miscast in detritment to something.

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## Aioros22

> Thing is, Lobdell's entire approach to Jason (and now Bizarro and Artemis) is to stop getting hung up on the past and what other people think of them. So, having a fluff piece of an outsider singing praises to Jason would undermine Lobdell's entire work on the character.
> 
> In the end whether Jason was good or not is irrelevant to his character, he's been defined as the guy who does the most with whatever life deals to him without compromising his ideals. In that context, scenes of Jason looking good or whatever is something only to stroke the ego of the fans.


I agree on general terms. Even further sometimes that emotional growth will meet challenges and shake. But generally the narrative should be adapting and grow. That being said, I know why Aazh makes a big deal out and it`s got to do with labels which can hinder a character`s growth in terms of office. It`exactly what it did Pre Flashpoint (even tho that had also to do with trying to make him a villain but that`s not here or there).

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## Aioros22

> Completely agree with this. especially bolded part. Doesnt matter how good or bad he was, what matters is how he tackles what comes with the baggage he comes with. And thats whats interesting to read about and thats why lodbell is killing it and his book is so good, hes focusing on what makes jason interesting, and he definitely doubled down on that on the last issue.


Agreed. 

That said, to some segment of the fanbase, it`s a matter of justice so to speak. Some of us have actually grown having to deal with reading him attached to a label that didn`t defined his character and stories. What turned out to be a plot hook got loose and became a meme about the character in coming years, because they could use it. 

What Loebdell is doing is using that to directly constrasting the current maturity and experiences of the character and he`s doing it remarkably well. Every since the reboot happened I`ve been set on the present time being the best time for Jason and that turns out to be quite true today.

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## JasonTodd428

> Hes better than lodbell. Strangely enough both are writing good books now. Which begs the question, what the hell was going on with the new 52?.


I have far more stylistic issues with Tynion's writing than I do with Lobdell's to be honest so for me Lobdell is the better writer. I will say that Tynion has improved over time and I did enjoy his character work in 'Tec if nothing else but having having said that his plots are still extremely weak. He also seems to have trouble with building certain plot points up sufficantly within his stories before resolving them. He's not progressed much on those two fronts in my opinion and its really holding his writing back. That's just my own personal opinion though not to dismiss yours. You like his work and that's fine.

As for what was going on with the N52 the simplest answer is editorially mandated BS. That's what pretty much plagued every DC book at the time. Also I think that perhaps they've both got better editors behind them now. Lobdell's work in particular seems to be more fluid and precise since Rebirth.

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## Aioros22

Tynion`s main issue is rushed/lackluster conclusions. He`s very much like Snyder in that department. Loedbell may be hit or miss but that`s in terms of titles. His Titans was miss but his RATHO was always good. It`s much better now, because factors. We can guess some: no office  mandates, no fit everything in five years or less continuity, whatever. Maybe it`s even because he gets to focus on one book. Who knows, as far as character work, while Detective is good, RATHO runs deeper.

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## JasonTodd428

> Tynion`s main issue is rushed/lackluster conclusions. He`s very much like Snyder in that department. Loedbell may be hit or miss but that`s in terms of titles. His Titans was miss but his RATHO was always good. It`s much better now, because factors. We can guess some: no office  mandates, no fit everything in five years or less continuity, whatever. Maybe it`s even because he gets to focus on one book. Who knows, as far as character work, while Detective is good, RATHO runs deeper.


Yeah, Tynion does tend toward rushing things a bit as a well but I feel that not only are his conclusions lackluster and rushed but that almost everything he does is that way as well. That's why I feel his has trouble with building strong plot lines and with building up various plot points so that the outcome of those makes sense within the story. He's concentrating a lot on character development, which is good, but a story needs a strong plot to go along with that in my opinion. In my opinion the best stories do both really well. For me 'Tec just doesn't do that and so it became less enjoyable for me. 

Lobdell's RH was always good but I do think it's been taken to a whole new level with Rebirth. I'm going to guess that there are various reasons for this. His under a new editor now for one and a good editor can do wonders with a writer's work. He's also only concentrating on one book now as well and its still a monthly title, which I'm sure helps things a bit. He's got a very good artist whose work just fits so seamlessly with his writing as well as a colorist whose palette seems to fit just as seamlessly. There doesn't seem to be the editorial shenanigans going on now that plagued a lot of the N52 books (his Teen Titans suffered heavily in that department.) All in all I think this book is overall a stronger one.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward. However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.

Lobdell on the other hand is a professional writer in all the meaning of the word, he carefully weaves his stories in way they can be easily incorporated if other creators want and he does a pretty extensive research about the characters he writes. However, he's ultimately at the whims of editorial so it doesn't always show. Editorial is in fact the bane of Lobdell, since he isn't a high profile writer he has to fold at the editor's requests and that more often than not translates into incomplete arcs and dropped plot points.

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## Caivu

> Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. *Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward.* However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.


Could you give some examples? Right now I completely disagree with that.

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## Lhynn

I have a very bad experience with lodbell, he writes nonsensical stuff, plagues his stories with mary sue villains that can only be taken down with deus ex machina, which he invariably introduces once he writes himself into a corner. He doesnt develops characters at all, merely presenting background information that informs the reader but has no real impact on the story. He introduces and drops characters on a whim, is very out of touch with the youth, and often drowns storytelling with action.
Maybe you are right, maybe it was problems with editorial, but jesus bro, that level of incompetence was staggering. Im getting the Culling flashbacks, halp.

Tynion is in fact a crowd pleaser, but at least he keeps plots easy to follow and his characterization both respect previous characterizations and is spot on (i know where you are coming from when you say its the opposite, but come on, Jason was a mess even before he got his hands on him, Lodbell has come a long way in defining him since). He gets the voices well for the most part. Which in itself is a p. big feat. And in short, he seems to care about who he writes, which is sadly something we dont get often.

BTW, that scan of him saying he screwed up in santa prisca seems to be chronologically wrong. Bruce didnt even knew bane when jason was around, did he?

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## JasonTodd428

> Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. *Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward.* However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.


Yeah, he sure does have a problem with the bolded even now. In Tec, Tim get taken because he's getting to close to the truth about things and is starting to make connections but we never see him actually doing any type of investigating into the Dr. M or Oz. Tynion didn't properly build that plot point up so when the reason for his capture is revealed it makes no sense and the conclusion of that arc fell completely flat.  




> Lobdell on the other hand is a professional writer in all the meaning of the word, he carefully weaves his stories in way they can be easily incorporated if other creators want and he does a pretty extensive research about the characters he writes. However, he's ultimately at the whims of editorial so it doesn't always show. *Editorial is in fact the bane of Lobdell, since he isn't a high profile writer he has to fold at the editor's requests and that more often than not translates into incomplete arcs and dropped plot points.*


I think we'll be seeing less of the bolded now with regard to this particular book. I don't get the sense that there is any editorial interference right now other then maybe a bit of set up for the overarching Rebirth story line. Beyond that I think Lobdell will be left to his own devices with very little in the way of editorially mandated crossovers and so forth for and that this book will get to develop naturally instead of in fits and starts.

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## Caivu

> Yeah, he sure does have a problem with the bolded even now. In Tec, Tim get taken because he's getting to close to the truth about things and is starting to make connections but we never see him actually doing any type of investigating into the Dr. M or Oz. Tynion didn't properly build that plot point up so when the reason for his capture is revealed it makes no sense and the conclusion of that arc fell completely flat.


I don't think the intent there was supposed to be Tim _intentionally_ investigating either Manhattan or Oz. It was more akin to someone walking down a street, minding their own business, and catching a glimpse of a hitman dumping a body in an alley. That's still not a perfect analogy, but the point is he came across something he wasn't supposed to completely by accident and unawares.

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## Aahz

> Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward. However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.


Thats unfortunately pretty standard in the current Batman comics. 





> Lobdell on the other hand is a professional writer in all the meaning of the word, he carefully weaves his stories in way they can be easily incorporated if other creators want and he does a pretty extensive research about the characters he writes. However, he's ultimately at the whims of editorial so it doesn't always show. Editorial is in fact the bane of Lobdell, since he isn't a high profile writer he has to fold at the editor's requests and that more often than not translates into incomplete arcs and dropped plot points.


Lobdell had also some really weak stories, the whole Underbelly thing was for example very deus ex machina, from meeting Underbelly to finding out about his origin to and the way they took him down in the end, nothing felt really earned.

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## JasonTodd428

> I have a very bad experience with lodbell, he writes nonsensical stuff, plagues his stories with mary sue villains that can only be taken down with deus ex machina, which he invariably introduces once he writes himself into a corner. He doesnt develops characters at all, merely presenting background information that informs the reader but has no real impact on the story. He introduces and drops characters on a whim, is very out of touch with the youth, and often drowns storytelling with action.


I've had multiple bad experiences with Tynion work and funnily enough most of the problems you've had with Lobdell I've had with Tynion on various occassions and across various books he's written.





> Maybe you are right, maybe it was problems with editorial, but jesus bro, that level of incompetence was staggering. Im getting the Culling flashbacks, halp.


I totally agree that his Teen Titans was an unmitigated disaster but editorial mandates where a huge problem with that book. I remember hearing that an editor flat out rewrote the part in one issue and had Tim say "I am *now* Tim Drake" when Lobdell had written "I am Tim Drake" and then there's the fact that whenever that book started to go somewhere it was pulled into some lame ass crossover. It never had a clear direction and never went anywhere because editorial interfered to heavily in it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they simply rewrote parts of it to suit their purposes after he'd turned a completed script in. Editorial interference was rampant at the time from what I understand from writers who left DC.

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## JasonTodd428

> I don't think the intent there was supposed to be Tim _intentionally_ investigating either Manhattan or Oz. It was more akin to someone walking down a street, minding their own business, and catching a glimpse of a hitman dumping a body in an alley. That's still not a perfect analogy, but the point is he came across something he wasn't supposed to completely by accident and unawares.


But we never even *saw* him walking down the street and catching that glimpse of something and that's why the ending there fell flat to me. We are only *told* that was the reason. It's another case of showing vs telling. I don't buy that his relationship with Steph was that glimpse at all because frankly then Oz or Dr. M should be taking a lot of other people as well and they aren't.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Could you give some examples? Right now I completely disagree with that.


From RHATO:

- Jason learning magical punches because he's some sort of chosen one
- The Joker showing up during issue zero
- Ra's Al Ghul involvement
- The City of the League
- Jason's time with the League
- His whole handling of the  Untitled.

Batman Eternal

- Steph going from a random high school girl to pull feats that would make Dick green with envy
- Harper Row
- March's Reveal and Cluemaster getting so many villains to work with him.

Talon

- Bane's characterization
- Calvin's girl getting a bionic arm
- Bane's squad of venom enhanced mooks
- The Butcher

Batman and Robin Eternal

- Harper once again
- The WAR kids appearance
- Orphan
- Mother

Batman/TMNT

- Casey's appearance
- The mutation of Batman's foes





> Lobdell had also some really weak stories, the whole Underbelly thing was for example very deus ex machina, from meeting Underbelly to finding out about his origin to and the way they took him down in the end, nothing felt really earned.


Editorial's fault. Lobdell's original plan for Underbelly was entirely unrelated to Gotham and it was one issue longer. He had to cut short the story and tie him to Gotham to have Gordon show up.

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## JasonTodd428

> Editorial's fault. Lobdell's original plan for Underbelly was entirely unrelated to Gotham and it was one issue longer. He had to cut short the story and tie him to Gotham to have Gordon show up.


Didn't that happen around the same time that MechaBat!Gordon started showing up heavily in other books as well? I seem to remember that it did.

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## Lhynn

> I totally agree that his Teen Titans was an unmitigated disaster but editorial mandates where a huge problem with that book. I remember hearing that an editor flat out rewrote the part in one issue and had Tim say "I am *now* Tim Drake" when Lobdell had written "I am Tim Drake" and then there's the fact that whenever that book started to go somewhere it was pulled into some lame ass crossover. It never had a clear direction and never went anywhere because editorial interfered to heavily in it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they simply rewrote parts of it to suit their purposes after he'd turned a completed script in. Editorial interference was rampant at the time from what I understand from writers who left DC.


Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.

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## JasonTodd428

> Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
> feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.


*shrug* That's what I had heard at one point. Not saying its necessarily true. What I do believe to be true, however, is that there were far to many editorially mandated crossovers involved with that book and that one of the reasons it never really got anywhere was because of that. (Honestly, the Teen Titans franchise has been a complete mess for a good long while anyway so it was pretty much a mess when Lobdell came into it and editorial messed it up more by throwing out Titans history. That was not something that can be laid at Lobdell's feet in any way, shape or form) I also do believe it to be true that editorial across the board at the time was pretty heavy handed with directions they wanted things to go in as well as how to get there. Various writers have commented on that more than enough IMHO to make it highly likely that it was true.

As a side note, this thread now has 200 pages.   :Cool:

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## Lhynn

well, i think it was completely unnecesary to redo every single titan. I went back and reread the last issues of pre flashpoint titans and fount it surprisingly not crap, much better than i remember. Thats either due to lowered standards or lowered standards i guess.

Why would you make superboy a murdering psycho? why would you push SJW LGBTQ stuff, why would you make your shy wondergirl into some jaded art thief. I really want to know who got the bright idea to redo an entire succesful generation.

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## JasonTodd428

> well, i think it was completely unnecesary to redo every single titan. I went back and reread the last issues of pre flashpoint titans and fount it surprisingly not crap, much better than i remember. Thats either due to lowered standards or lowered standards i guess.
> 
> Why would you make superboy a murdering psycho? why would you push SJW LGBTQ stuff, why would you make your shy wondergirl into some jaded art thief. I really want to know who got the bright idea to redo an entire succesful generation.


To go along with that I feel it was completely unnecessary to throw out the history of the Titans as well as the most of the rest of the DCU history. If they were going to stick with basically the same team as before then they should have left all the history in place instead of the nonsense they pulled. They wanted something new though and I sort of feel like they should have maybe gone with completely new characters that they could build from the ground up to achieve that 'newness' they were so desirous of at the time instead of saddling these particular characters with a bunch of changes. The single bright spot to me in all the changing they did was Bunker. I liked his character a lot and it made me want to see other new characters on the team instead of the same old ones they've used for years.

----------


## Lhynn

Bunker was a special case, it was a good character but also a bad character. It had moments of great characterization and others of blatant tokenism.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Not buying it. Lodbell actually went to comic vine to defend his TT work, and especially his Tim Drake treatment.
> feels more more like he wanted to write a new character and editorial didnt care.


You have a link? Because I looked around ComicVine and Lobdell stopped being active much earlier than issue 0 hit the stands.

And he did in fact admit on an interview that editorial changedthe dialogue he wrote for that issue about Tim.

Oh, and speaking as someone who was born and raised on Mexico, Bunker is one of the best mexican characters in the medium. At least under Lobdell, Pfeifer's take on Miguel was horrible.




> Didn't that happen around the same time that MechaBat!Gordon started showing up heavily in other books as well? I seem to remember that it did.


Yes, the whole thing was an editorial mandate to prop up Gordon.

----------


## Aioros22

> Tynion writes comics as he were writing fanfiction. Things happen because they are cool regardless if they fit previous characterizations or actually move the plot forward. However, he has turned into a crowd pleaser, writing the kind of stuff the audience want even if is a pretty inferior retread of ideas explored by far better writers than him before.
> 
> Lobdell on the other hand is a professional writer in all the meaning of the word, he carefully weaves his stories in way they can be easily incorporated if other creators want and he does a pretty extensive research about the characters he writes. However, he's ultimately at the whims of editorial so it doesn't always show. Editorial is in fact the bane of Lobdell, since he isn't a high profile writer he has to fold at the editor's requests and that more often than not translates into incomplete arcs and dropped plot points.


I prefer Loedbell over Tynion. On his best days, one is miles better than the other, but Loedbell is nout without his flaws. I have no particular take on how much editorial hindered his work, so I`ll take everyone`s word for good measure. That being said TMNT/Batman is a different animal. It`s a format where you are _supposed_ to be a crowd pleaser and a bit of a fanfic writer. Continuity is handled superficially over character interactions and in that regard the book was great.

Except Shredder and IronBatman having a prolonged fight, that was crap. Shredder eats bats for breakfest.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And he did in fact admit on an interview that editorial changedthe dialogue he wrote for that issue about Tim.


I remember seeing that somewhere as well but for the life of me I can't remember what interview it was. I also recall he was surprised that the line had been changed which made me think at the time that he wasn't even aware that a change had been made.




> Oh, and speaking as someone who was born and raised on Mexico, Bunker is one of the best mexican characters in the medium. At least under Lobdell, Pfeifer's take on Miguel was horrible.


I agree that Pfiefer's take on Miguel was awful. I much preferred Lobdell's. 




> Yes, the whole thing was an editorial mandate to prop up Gordon.


Thought as much. Thanks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I prefer Loedbell over Tynion. On his best days, one is miles better than the other, but Loedbell is nout without his flaws. I have no particular take on how much editorial hindered his work, so I`ll take everyone`s word for good measure. That being said TMNT/Batman is a different animal. It`s a format where you are _supposed_ to be a crowd pleaser and a bit of a fanfic writer. Continuity is handled superficially over character interactions and in that regard the book was great.
> 
> Except Shredder and IronBatman having a prolonged fight, that was crap. Shredder eats bats for breakfest.


Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.

Take a look at Johns, the man basically made his fanfiction core part of the DCU but unlike Tynion his work was well received because he naturally added his ideas to the universe.

That said, TMNT/Batman wasn't a massive wreck but was ultimately banal and meaningless. A crossover that big deserved to be much, much more.

----------


## The Whovian

> I prefer Loedbell over Tynion.


I think they've both been great. Lobdell has been amazing on RHATO and Tynion has been superb on 'Tec. I just hope DC doesn't mess with anything and just lets these two keep going because they're the two best books right now, IMO.

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## Aioros22

> Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.
> 
> Take a look at Johns, the man basically made his fanfiction core part of the DCU but unlike Tynion his work was well received because he naturally added his ideas to the universe.
> 
> That said, TMNT/Batman wasn't a massive wreck but was ultimately banal and meaningless. A crossover that big deserved to be much, much more.


I`m laughhing because i mostly agree about Johns, but he`s got exceptions. His Booster Gold, Aquaman and some Green lanterna stuff are quality. The crossovers is where it goes nuts. Any crossover could always be a bit more, but TMNT/Batman is good in everything it counts. Interactions, cool exposition, a nicely written Batman (better than in Detective actually), artwork and of course, cameos and fights, the two main things. 

Is it really that big? I guess it is, I`m much more hyped by the current Thundercats/Masters of the Universe myself.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think they've both been great. Lobdell has been amazing on RHATO and Tynion has been superb on 'Tec. I just hope DC doesn't mess with anything and just lets these two keep going because they're the two best books right now, IMO.


Oh, it isn`t a hard knock on Tynion from me. I just prefer one style over the other.

----------


## Aahz

> Thing is, Fanfics are unanimously terrible when they blatantly ignore the canon of the series they're using as basis. The few legitimately good fanfics out there is because their authors bothered to do their research and worked hard to fit their ideas into the series' canon, not the other way. And that is something that Tynion has missed through his whole career.


I think there are also some good ones, where writer made his own canon (after doing research).

But the portrait of some charcters in the current comics really reminds me sometimes more on their fanfic version, than on the classic comic versions, as well as the way they treat continuity nowadays.

----------


## Aahz

> Editorial's fault. Lobdell's original plan for Underbelly was entirely unrelated to Gotham and it was one issue longer. He had to cut short the story and tie him to Gotham to have Gordon show up.


The whole first half of RH/A was still pretty weak, at least when it comes to villains and the crime fighting part of the plot. And a good series needs both, good character work and good story lines.

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## Lhynn

Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.
Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.

Lodbell alone and by himself ruined the most prominent characters of an entire generation of superheroes. He singlehandedly destroyed them so badly, that no matter what creative teams have picked up his nuclear waste, have been unable to produce anything remotely interesting or deserving of more of a passing "meh". It was so bad that they had to either get killed or get disappeared and are in limbo waiting for someone to actually bother fixing them.
He may have a real knack to write Jason, because both he loves the character and sees a lot of himself in him, but that doesnt make him a good writer.
Tynion at the very least sort of held the title and his blunders were mostly in character. And right now hes juggling members of the entire batfam in and out and hes keeping their voice relatively faithful. Hes showing that both he has learned and that he has range and interesting ideas.

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## Powertool

> Lodbell *alone and by himself* ruined the most prominent characters of an entire generation of superheroes.





> He *singlehandedly* destroyed them so badly,


False, false, false. On all counts. Not even Jack Kirby at his finest, when he was the staunchest believer in teamwork in the history of comic books would have managed to get something readable on the pages of _Teen Titans_ while working under an editoral regime that was in equal parts schizophrenic, self-contradictory, temporising and authoritarian. And anyway, let's not pretend we've gotten any masterpieces from that title from _One Year Later_ onwards and even before that, the best material starring DC's young heroes had been published on books that weren't titled _Teen Titans_. All in all, the franchise has been on a downward spyral ever since the late Eighties.

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## Aioros22

> Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.
> Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.


Neither really wrote or write Jason as a screw up. Loedbell has shown Jason`s emotional struggles as means to _apply_ to his present day growth (like the example you mention, which is a staple in terms of role training) or as means to constrast or bring characters together. Tynion hasn`t really done any of it worth mentioning, exactly because his style is usually more superficial in character work.

----------


## Aahz

I think the whole premise of with taking more of less the characters that were on the team pre flashpoint but completely erasing their history and their connection to the parent franchise and re-imagine them, was in general a bad idea and I think most writers would have had problem to make it work. If that was Lobdell decision or if he got orders from the editors I don't know. It is imo already amazing that he made the Outlaws work which had also a kind of problematic line up.

Tynion keeps the characters close to the pre flashpoint characterisation, which is of course more popular with the fans. And he has also some really bad ideas like that horrible Jason Barbara romance in eternal. And I'm kind of curious if he can make Azrael work, which was for me never a really appealing character.

----------


## Lhynn

> Neither really wrote or write Jason as a screw up. Loedbell has shown Jason`s emotional struggles as means to _apply_ to his present day growth (like the example you mention, which is a staple in terms of role training) or as means to constrast or bring characters together.


Potato Potatoe.
He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.




> Tynion hasn`t really done any of it worth mentioning, exactly because his style is usually more superficial in character work.


He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.

----------


## Lhynn

> I think the whole premise of with taking more of less the characters that were on the team pre flashpoint but completely erasing their history and their connection to the parent franchise and re-imagine them, was in general a bad idea and I think most writers would have had problem to make it work.


Sure, which is why he should have stuck with anything he could instead of changing everything. He should have let his parents die while he was a robin, he should have kept his high school years, he should have kept his exchanges with shiva, ras, bruce. He should have kept his origin intact, even if modifying it for modern audiences. He threw like 20 years of character development down the drain, then gave him an ironman suit and called it a day.




> If that was Lobdell decision or if he got orders from the editors I don't know. It is imo already amazing that he made the Outlaws work which had also a kind of problematic line up.


Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.




> Tynion keeps the characters close to the pre flashpoint characterisation, which is of course more popular with the fans. And he has also some really bad ideas like that horrible Jason Barbara romance in eternal.


Could have worked, if they had taken it seriously and went along with it, no matter how many of Dicks fans it pissed. The problem was that it was played half assed, in a book that didnt matter because it was about events that came to pass, so it either pissed people off, or they didnt care because it didnt matter. Really stupid way to do it.




> And I'm kind of curious if he can make Azrael work, which was for me never a really appealing character.


He already has, as the wise, calm and religious member that can be p. badass. His latest development places him close to nightcrawler, which can definitely work with the team composition he has, it literally writes itself.

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## okiedokiewo

> Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire


...no. This comment is hysterical.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. *Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.*
> Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.


Under him RHATO fell like a rock on sales charts, how is that "harmless"?




> Potato Potatoe.
> He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.


Nope. The arc is about the "Dark Trinity" living by themselves and stop trying to measure to something they can't never be. I'm confused at how you missed this since it was made explicit when Jason reached to Bizarro to calm him down.





> He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.


Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.




> Sure, which is why he should have stuck with anything he could instead of changing everything. He should have let his parents die while he was a robin, he should have kept his high school years, he should have kept his exchanges with shiva, ras, bruce. He should have kept his origin intact, even if modifying it for modern audiences. He threw like 20 years of character development down the drain, then gave him an ironman suit and called it a day.


Did you miss the "reboot" part of the N52?




> Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.


Did you read the book? Because nothing of that is true.





> He already has, as the wise, calm and religious member that can be p. badass. His latest development places him close to nightcrawler, which can definitely work with the team composition he has, it literally writes itself.


Except that Jean Paul's character was all about his struggles to unify the two persons living inside him: the dorky, Gotham U undergrad and St. Dumas Assassin. Cutting that and making him a "badass" religious zealot is missing the whole point of his character. Hell, Tynion isn't even writing Jean Paul, he's writing Michael Lane.

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## Caivu

> Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.


He was actually last seen during the final arc of Batwoman, where he was very close in personality to where he is now. He had gotten amnesia, which resulted in his personality change, and that's been reiterated in 'Tec. So it didn't come from absolutely nowhere, and if it has to be anyone's fault (for whatever reason), it's not Tynion's.


Edit: Annnnnd it turns out that he was in a few issues of various things after that. Whatever. Point is, Clayface being a good guy has recent precedence. If he has inconsistent personalities, that can be easily handwaved away by the stuff he said in the most recent 'Tec issue: basically, that shapeshifting affects his mind. Not a big deal.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He was actually last seen during the final arc of Batwoman, where he was very close in personality to where he is now. He had gotten amnesia, which resulted in his personality change, and that's been reiterated in 'Tec. So it didn't come from absolutely nowhere, and if it has to be anyone's fault (for whatever reason), it's not Tynion's.
> 
> 
> Edit: Annnnnd it turns out that he was in a few issues of various things after that. Whatever. Point is, Clayface being a good guy has recent precedence. If he has inconsistent personalities, that can be easily *handwaved* away by the stuff he said in the most recent 'Tec issue: basically, that shapeshifting affects his mind. Not a big deal.


And that is because Tynion is a bad writer, he doesn't bother to show how we got from point A to point B.

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## Caivu

> And that is because Tynion is a bad writer, he doesn't bother to show how we got from point A to point B.


You can't pin Clayface on Tynion (if indeed is actually something that needs to be pinned on someone). Clayface was acting nice at least a little bit toward the end of New 52, and he's just building on that. He doesn't need to show how it happened because it already has. Clayface got amnesia, now he's nice. All Tynion added was a bit of an explanation as to how, but he didn't just get "Clayface is nice" out of nowhere. If you just _have_ to blame someone for that, blame Marc Andreyko.

Handwaving isn't a bad thing, by the way. It just means there's an explanation of some kind, so don't worry about it. The precise details don't matter.

I'm not sure what you mean by how he doesn't show getting from one point to another, either. I can see it just fine.

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## Lhynn

> Under him RHATO fell like a rock on sales charts, how is that "harmless"?


How is it not? books that arent well written usually go down in sales. Doesnt mean that every character involved is ruined, except if you happen to be lodbell.




> Nope. The arc is about the "Dark Trinity" living by themselves and stop trying to measure to something they can't never be. I'm confused at how you missed this since it was made explicit when Jason reached to Bizarro to calm him down.


Didnt miss it, one theme is just an extension of the other.




> Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.


Pandering to clayfaces fans everywhere im guessing. Give it a break, you are embarrasing yourself.




> Did you miss the "reboot" part of the N52?


Oh come on, this is just disingenuous, Dick had pretty much the same story, so did Jason, so did Bruce, so did Damian. There were some slight changes because of the compressed timeline but thats it. This Tim Drake is an entirely new and different character in every way, you will struggle to find even the most superficial similarities between both his reincarnations. "hey guys, this is about Tim Drake and his Titans" Bait and swich if i ever saw one.




> Did you read the book? Because nothing of that is true.


Subtext. It was obviously implied.




> Except that Jean Paul's character was all about his struggles to unify the two persons living inside him: the dorky, Gotham U undergrad and St. Dumas Assassin. Cutting that and making him a "badass" religious zealot is missing the whole point of his character. Hell, Tynion isn't even writing Jean Paul, he's writing Michael Lane.


Jean Paul has always been p. uninteresting character. Hes due a remake that makes him both more interesting in his struggle and have a better dynamic with other characters. He was basically a batman by way of moon knight and nobody cared for it.
Saw some of his fans getting up in arms over him being easily defeated at the start of Tec, saw none of them complain for making him a more compelling and grounded character, both in his struggle and attitude, while still remaining largely the same.

----------


## Aahz

> Oh come on, this is just disingenuous, Dick had pretty much the same story, so did Jason, so did Bruce, so did Damian. There were some slight changes because of the compressed timeline but thats it. This Tim Drake is an entirely new and different character in every way, you will struggle to find even the most superficial similarities between both his reincarnations. "hey guys, this is about Tim Drake and his Titans" Bait and swich if i ever saw one.


Dick and Jason lost also quite big parts of their history, and imo Dick and Jason being already 16 when they became Robin should have quite an impact on them and their relation with Bruce (even if the writers mostly ignore it). 

And I think you really overestimating the the effect that the origin stories have on a character.
For nostalgic reasons it would have been nice if certain elements had been still been there but many of them don't have such a big impact in the end.
If you compare in Jasons case for example his classic post crisis origin, with the new 52 one, the first issues of Arkham Knight Genesis and the DCAU-Tim Drake Version, all of them are quite different stories (and I could probably write a long text about which elements I like and which don't) but in the end you could probably use all of them as origin for the current Jason, and it wouldn't really have an effect on the current comics. You could maybe even use "Just Imagine Stan Lee's Robin" as basis for his origin and it would still work.

----------


## kaimaciel

Ed Boon is trying to kill me with an heart attack.

Sem Título.jpg

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/805898241753620480

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## Aioros22

> Potato Potatoe. 
> He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.


A bit of pot calling the kettle, innite?

You just made a link between that particular flashback to the current state of affairs in the story. It`s used not as means to cliche bait Jason in the screw role up for it`s own sake but as means to direct his growth as a character. He`s been doing it since the first volume of RATHO. That, IMHO is not being harmfull to the character, especially when the flashbacks you get to see are mostly shown in a positive light. They aren`t about Bruce or others pinpointing how he doesn`t measure up. Like Miller said with his "Last Crusade", that`s more a battle in his own perception and mind, for growing up the way he did. For everyone leaving, so to speak, for having to fend for himself alone. 

You just need to see a bit of that with the closing arc of RHAA. 

Any *generic* misteps happened to every Robin on trial, that`s nothing new or groundbreaking. The current case with Jason and the Outlaws goes beyond that and Loedbell is expanding it with the Dark Trinity simbolism. I`m reminded of a general idea I`ve read over "Peter Pan in Scarlet" that somehow seems to fit. That of "cloathes making the man". 




> He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.


I was talking about Jason. Regarding Detective, Clayface is by far his best character work yet, we`ll see how the rest goes. He`s improving but to me he hasn`t dwelve deep in character analysis the way I`ve seen Loedbell do with Jason and the Outlaws cast or way back with the X-Men.

----------


## Aioros22

> How is it not? books that arent well written usually go down in sales. Doesnt mean that every character involved is ruined, except if you happen to be lodbell.


Are you agreeing here that Tynion`s run on the book wasn`t well written?

Personally, I didn`t hated it but like I mentioned before, it was kind of superficial, kind of going nowhere. Kinda.




> Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.


There was no 3-way bed or 3-way relationship or even an actual relationship between Kory and Roy until later on. It`s basically Wolfman Kory butless Disney purty, I guess. You know, the Starfire who doesn`t get humans being puritans, who grew up a slave of a planetary kingdom and learns languages by kissing people. That`s never appearantly an issue as long it`s Dick Grayson she`s kissing, despite them not being together for two decades. 

The first issue was mostly drawn to get attention, I`ll give you that, but even then Jason and Kory have no fling. What they have is a respectuful life teacher/student chemistry. She`s the first person as par the reboot to whom Jason opens up and tells her the whole story of his life. 

And later relationship apart, I don`t think he got Roy badly either. It`s the best Roy ever since DC screwed him up big time. At the very least Loedbell gave him good qualities, a heart and this great idea of Killer Crock being his adiction sponsor.

----------


## Aahz

> And later relationship apart, I don`t think he got Roy badly either. It`s the best Roy ever since DC screwed him up big time. At the very least Loedbell gave him good qualities, a heart and this great idea of Killer Crock being his adiction sponsor.


I'm not sure how much of Lobdells Roy is still intact in Titans (since Roy got hardly any screen time) but I think the tech genius direction, could actually help him since that would give him his own niche on the team.

And after Cry for Justice and Rise of Arsenal he was really a character that needed a reboot.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, to be fair, anything remotly manageable for Roy would be better than Rise of Arsenal. We`re simply pointing out especifics that were given to Roy as part of the Outlaws. The tech guy thing was also mentioned in Lamire`s Green Arrow when they showed how basic was both Oliver and Diggle`s whole getup before Roy joined them.

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## Aioros22

> Ed Boon is trying to kill me with an heart attack.
> 
> Attachment 42320
> 
> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/805898241753620480


How long has Boon been playing the tease game?

----------


## Lhynn

> Dick and Jason lost also quite big parts of their history, and imo Dick and Jason being already 16 when they became Robin should have quite an impact on them and their relation with Bruce (even if the writers mostly ignore it).


They didnt lose everything that they were. And yes, Tim did.




> And I think you really overestimating the the effect that the origin stories have on a character.


Not really, introduce batman as an adventure seeking alien thats just trying to gain good will of the people at earth to then conquer them and you kinda changed the character completely.
Heck, they changed Caps. Origin as part of the ongoing arc and its not the same character.




> For nostalgic reasons it would have been nice if certain elements had been still been there but many of them don't have such a big impact in the end.
> If you compare in Jasons case for example his classic post crisis origin, with the new 52 one, the first issues of Arkham Knight Genesis and the DCAU-Tim Drake Version, all of them are quite different stories (and I could probably write a long text about which elements I like and which don't) but in the end you could probably use all of them as origin for the current Jason and it wouldn't really have an effect on the current comics. You could maybe even use "Just Imagine Stan Lee's Robin" as basis for his origin and it would still work.


Sure, but they all play the same beats, which means that even while the events are different, the message is the same. Now what would happen if we gave hawkmans origin to jason, what if we gave him Cyborgs origin?

----------


## Lhynn

> You just made a link between that particular flashback to the current state of affairs in the story. It`s used not as means to cliche bait Jason in the screw role up for it`s own sake but as means to direct his growth as a character. He`s been doing it since the first volume of RATHO. That, IMHO is not being harmfull to the character, especially when the flashbacks you get to see are mostly shown in a positive light. They aren`t about Bruce or others pinpointing how he doesn`t measure up. Like Miller said with his "Last Crusade", that`s more a battle in his own perception and mind, for growing up the way he did. For everyone leaving, so to speak, for having to fend for himself alone.


Depicting a character as incompetent or inexperienced in a certain kind of situation doesnt harm the character if it remains in character, and it in fact helps the character grow.




> Any *generic* misteps happened to every Robin on trial, that`s nothing new or groundbreaking.


Indeed, but the other robins didnt die before they could get over that phase.




> I was talking about Jason. Regarding Detective, Clayface is by far his best character work yet, we`ll see how the rest goes. He`s improving but to me he hasn`t dwelve deep in character analysis the way I`ve seen Loedbell do with Jason and the Outlaws cast or way back with the X-Men.


Well, Lodbell wisely is playing similar notes with all 3 characters, so he gets to develop them at the same time, and has them kind of riff off eachother thematically speaking. It creates a situation where all 3 characters strengthen the core theme of the book and are a positive influence on eachother.
Tynnion went with a completely different approach and is playing with 1 or two characters per arc, thoroughly developing them before moving on while at the same time keeping the dynamic between these very distinct members, with really nothing in common other than dressing up and beating the underprivileged at night, interesting.
They are both writing good stuff at the moment.

My point is that while Tynion failed to make jason interesting, he didnt destroy an entire generation of super heroes to get to where he is now.

----------


## Lhynn

> Are you agreeing here that Tynion`s run on the book wasn`t well written?


Sure, didnt care for it. What im arguing is that it didnt really damage the character beyond poor sales.




> There was no 3-way bed or 3-way relationship or even an actual relationship between Kory and Roy until later on. It`s basically Wolfman Kory butless Disney purty, I guess. You know, the Starfire who doesn`t get humans being puritans, who grew up a slave of a planetary kingdom and learns languages by kissing people. That`s never appearantly an issue as long it`s Dick Grayson she`s kissing, despite them not being together for two decades.


There was plenty of subtext for it. Oversexualized beautiful woman that has no qualms about being with anybody and 2 young good looking guys and best friends. The 3 of them basically living together.




> And later relationship apart, I don`t think he got Roy badly either. It`s the best Roy ever since DC screwed him up big time. At the very least Loedbell gave him good qualities, a heart and this great idea of Killer Crock being his adiction sponsor.


Fair enough.

----------


## Aahz

> They didnt lose everything that they were. And yes, Tim did.


Dick lost a lot like almost all his team mates and the whole Blüdhaven Story line.




> Sure, but they all play the same beats, which means that even while the events are different, the message is the same. Now what would happen if we gave hawkmans origin to jason, what if we gave him Cyborgs origin?


Imo they had the important beats (even if the second version in secret origins was probably the better one), I think a far bigger problem was that he had almost no interaction with the rest of the Batfamily, especially with Dick and Bruce. I mean his first real interaction with Dick was iirc in Grayson #13 and the first with Bruce in rebirth 'Tec. Problem was that Titans didn't really had the space to do it and the Batwriters apparently didn't care.
And even if his origin would have been closer to the the original. I don't think that it would have had any influence. The origin was published when they were allready one year into the new 52, and if I look how poorly the whole reboot was coordinated I doubt that planed who Tims new origin would be when the series started.




> There was plenty of subtext for it. Oversexualized beautiful woman that has no qualms about being with anybody and 2 young good looking guys and best friends. The 3 of them basically living together.


And there is nothing that shows that there is something going on between Jason and Kory, while it is clearly shown that there is something going on between Kory and Roy.

----------


## The Whovian

What did you all think of RH: Lost Days?

----------


## AJpyro

> What did you all think of RH: Lost Days?


Quite enjoyed it. Nice little interquel between DitF and UtRH. Squicked beyond belief on the Talia thing and wish it didn't happen.

----------


## Aahz

Appart from the Thalia thing it is quite good. 

Biggest (but quite minor) flaws are imo that they don't really link it with the Batman time line, that is (at least for me) not really clear what changed Talias mind from trying to "repair" Jason to return him to Bruce to help him to have his revenge against Bruce and that they completely ignore Damians existence.

----------


## AJpyro

> Appart from the Thalia thing it is quite good. 
> 
> Biggest (but quite minor) flaws are imo that they don't really link it with the Batman time line, that is (at least for me) not really clear what changed Talias mind from trying to "repair" Jason to return him to Bruce to help him to have his revenge against Bruce and that they completely ignore Damians existence.


Didn't she mention Ras dying around this time?

----------


## Lhynn

> Dick lost a lot like almost all his team mates and the whole Blüdhaven Story line.


Yeah, the loss of his allies suck, but bludhaven, the city he was the protector off ended up a nuclear disaster area. Shamefur. Then he forgot about the place to boot, imagine batman doing the same.




> Imo they had the important beats (even if the second version in secret origins was probably the better one), I think a far bigger problem was that he had almost no interaction with the rest of the Batfamily, especially with Dick and Bruce. I mean his first real interaction with Dick was iirc in Grayson #13 and the first with Bruce in rebirth 'Tec. Problem was that Titans didn't really had the space to do it and the Batwriters apparently didn't care.


Na, what hurt him the most was that they changed his personality, from the level headed detective into tech guy N° 423748, gave him an ironman suit and had him lose to every villain of the week they ran across. FFS, he once got oneshotted by some lame cyborg, old Tim could put down a team of metas, new tim couldnt put down a single small cyborg, talk about lame.




> And even if his origin would have been closer to the the original. I don't think that it would have had any influence.


Yes it would have, you cant have selfless guardian angel of his own heroes and cocky blogger aiming for the top of the vigilante world and claim they are both the same.




> The origin was published when they were allready one year into the new 52, and if I look how poorly the whole reboot was coordinated I doubt that planed who Tims new origin would be when the series started.


Lodbell was already writing a different character, he just gave him an origin that fit that idea.




> And there is nothing that shows that there is something going on between Jason and Kory, while it is clearly shown that there is something going on between Kory and Roy.


As i said, subtext, all that needed to happen was jason feeling horny one afternoon for it to go down, it was literally set up like that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Damn



https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpt-RqB...oscalera&hl=es

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Damn
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpt-RqB...oscalera&hl=es


Damn is right. I love it.

----------


## Aahz

> Didn't she mention Ras dying around this time?


Maybe, but it was (at least for me) not really clear to which story line she was referring, and Ras has iirc died a few times.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ed Boon is trying to kill me with an heart attack.
> 
> Attachment 42320
> 
> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/805898241753620480


Tease or not, result looks damn good.





> As i said, subtext, all that needed to happen was jason feeling horny one afternoon for it to go down, it was literally set up like that.


What subtext? Like mentioned before, it's only in the first issue that a Jason/Kory romance might be hinted at, depending on how you read it. For me it's just Jason being Jason, he says things to rile people up. He says "She's been with me" which is true enough giving his time being on her ship, not necessarily romantic. Aside from that, RHATO#6 where Jason first meets Kory, stays together with her for a while and the only time he's shown interested is when he's playing with Tamaranean weapons. The whole time his mind is on his past with Batman/Dick/Ducra. To Kory he is first polite and later gains much respect for her, going so far as thinking her of a teacher. Is that subtext for doing it when Jason feels horny? 

Also in RHATO #32 Jason admits he and Kory friend zoned each other.

----------


## G-Potion

> Damn
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpt-RqB...oscalera&hl=es


Brilliant work!

----------


## Aioros22

> What did you all think of RH: Lost Days?


Love it. But just like UTRH, it works as a new start, not as a definite status quo to me.

----------


## The Whovian

> Damn
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpt-RqB...oscalera&hl=es


LOL! That is cool

----------


## Aahz

> Tease or not, result looks damn good.


It is rare that you see Jason having more votes in poll like this than Dick and Damian combined.

----------


## Badou

> It is rare that you see Jason having more votes in poll like this than Dick and Damian combined.


Maybe in comic book related polls it is rare, where comic readers are the focus, but I think in more general ones where non comic readers pay attention Jason/Red Hood is just as if not a tad more popular than Nightwing. Red Hood has one of DC's best animated movies under his belt, heavily featured in the latest Arkham game, and wasn't in the last Injustice game too. Nigtwing was garbage in the Injustice game and story, basically been non existent in the Arkham games, and has never had an animated movie focus on him as Nightwing. 

I'm a Dick Grayson fan but I think Nightwing's popularity outside comics is vastly overrated.

----------


## Aioros22

> Depicting a character as incompetent or inexperienced in a certain kind of situation doesnt harm the character if it remains in character, and it in fact helps the character grow


Totes agreed. 


[QUOTE=Lhynn;2450813Indeed, but the other robins didnt die before they could get over that phase[/QUOTE]

The other Robins didn`t had a Starlin. But there`s truth in there and thus why Jason deals the emoticons he deals in terms of in-story.

----------


## Aioros22

> Tease or not, result looks damn good.


How many polls does Jason need to be on the lead for Boon to give the Gun Fu the fans want?

----------


## G-Potion

> How many polls does Jason need to be on the lead for Boon to give the Gun Fu the fans want?


Eh at this point I'd be surprised if Boon doesn't give us Jason in Injustice 2. In the meantime, Jason can keep winning more polls. It soothes the soul.  :Cool:

----------


## kaimaciel

> Eh at this point I'd be surprised if Boon doesn't give us Jason in Injustice 2. In the meantime, Jason can keep winning more polls. It soothes the soul.


Oh, he better be in Injustice 2 after all this teasing or else I'm ripping someone's spleen out.

----------


## Aahz

> Depicting a character as incompetent or inexperienced in a certain kind of situation doesnt harm the character if it remains in character, and it in fact helps the character grow.


It can show grows if a charter finally succeeds after failing, thats also how the story usually went on when one of the other Robins failed. But in Jasons they show to much failing and not much succeeding (especially in the flashbacks), the balance is imo just not right. 
Last Crused makes it imo better, it clearly shows Jasons problems but you have for example also the scene where he rescues Bruce by tricking Killer Croc.

And Jason has allready the (undeserved) reputation of being an incompetent Robin which non of the other Robins has, the writers have to be more carefull in his case and also show his positive sides more. 
Especally if you look how the other Robins are al pushed at the moment (In their case it goes imo already to much in the other direction), Jason looks quite bad in comparison.

----------


## Aioros22

> It can show grows if a charter finally succeeds after failing, thats also how the story usually went on when one of the other Robins failed. But in Jasons they show to much failing and not much succeeding (especially in the flashbacks), the balance is imo just not right. 
> Last Crused makes it imo better, it clearly shows Jasons problems but you have for example also the scene where he rescues Bruce by tricking Killer Croc.


What flashbacks you actually got in mind to say the balance has been off? Just curious.

----------


## Aioros22

> There was plenty of subtext for it. Oversexualized beautiful woman that has no qualms about being with anybody and 2 young good looking guys and best friends. The 3 of them basically living together.


That seems the sort of subext some visualized with Pre-Flashpoint Tim and Kon.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Doesn't look bad



https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...67986330464256

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Doesn't look bad
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...67986330464256


Still not happy with the mask design there. It looks strangely skeletal to me with the cheeks appearing sunken in like that. It strikes me as more "Red Skull" than "Red Hood".

----------


## G-Potion

> Doesn't look bad
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...67986330464256


Not bad, not bad at all. The pose looks very crime lord-y as well as those shadows on the wall. Wonder if that's Jason's new (old?) status after the end of this arc.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

No source and is simply mere speculation but goddamn if this didn't made me jump on my seat




> Another possible storyline for "Young Justice" Season 3 will have Roy Harper/Arsenal form his new team since he does not want to play by the rules of the Team and Justice League. The Outlaws could be featured in season 3 as the team consist of Arsenal, Jason Todd/Red Hood and Starfire. Perhaps Jason could be resurrected as Red Hood and Starfire could be a former member of the team by the time season 3 starts.


http://en.yibada.com/articles/177594...3-spoilers.htm

----------


## Rise

> Damn
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpt-RqB...oscalera&hl=es


Great art from Scalera as always  :Cool: 




> Doesn't look bad
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...67986330464256


Really like it, how many issues the new artist is going to do?

----------


## Aioros22

> Not bad, not bad at all. The pose looks very crime lord-y as well as those shadows on the wall. Wonder if that's Jason's new (old?) status after the end of this arc.


He renders the mask sligthly different but I like the composition. His linework is totally Noir with the use of shadows. Color me interested to see more (but I still want Soy in the book).

----------


## Aioros22

> No source and is simply mere speculation but goddamn if this didn't made me jump on my seat
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.yibada.com/articles/177594...3-spoilers.htm


I`ve read fans clamoring for that ever since Jason`s hologram showed up and the original Roy was cloned and became Arsenal and I think among the ideas postnopted upon the ending of Season 2 was Jason also returning as Red Hood. 

#BookIt

----------


## godisawesome

> No source and is simply mere speculation but goddamn if this didn't made me jump on my seat
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.yibada.com/articles/177594...3-spoilers.htm


I hope they do bring him in; Jason has a memorial int he cave and Dick expressed fear over Tim getting killed. And the Arsenal from the show would be a perfect match for a more ruthless but still altruistic Red Hood. And I'd almost kill somebody to get a scene with three or more Robins in the same frame.

----------


## Aioros22

The Arsenal thing is fairly done for it. You have Red Arrow for the norm team and an Arsenal playing his own rules for another. I think that plot point was done so writers could have a go with a Outlaws sort of team. Hence the Jason memorial and Dick`s words to Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

> Great art from Scalera as always 
> 
> 
> 
> Really like it, how many issues the new artist is going to do?


Colak says on twitter he's doing just one issue. However, from what I heard, RHATO will have few other guest artists as well so I'm not sure when Soy will be back to the title.

----------


## Aahz

At least this here doesn't sound for me like the creator had much interest in using Jason (maybe in understand it wrong).

----------


## G-Potion

Hell yeah!

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/807238418069471232

----------


## okiedokiewo

> At least this here doesn't sound for me like the creator had much interest in using Jason (maybe in understand it wrong).


I think he's saying he would be happy to use Jason. I think you're reading it as him saying "pass ON," meaning he wouldn't want to. "Pass at" means he would be happy to take a stab at him.

----------


## REAL

> At least this here doesn't sound for me like the creator had much interest in using Jason (maybe in understand it wrong).


You are understand it wrong.

My English isn't really strong, but I'm pretty sure that take a pass at means "Make an attempt".

----------


## REAL

> Hell yeah!
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/807238418069471232


Glad to hear that.

----------


## Aahz

> You are understand it wrong.


Thats possible, my english is also not that perfect.

----------


## Aioros22

> At least this here doesn't sound for me like the creator had much interest in using Jason (maybe in understand it wrong).


In season 1 Robin was still Dick Grayson, so asking if there was plans to jump to Jason in the next season was the question. The hologram only shows up at the end of Season 2. 

Obviously the bigger marketing game with Jason is as Red Hood, we all know that.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G-Potion

The man has spoken!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Hell yeah!
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/807238418069471232


That's great news! Hell yeah.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Doesn't look bad
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...67986330464256


Really like crime noir feel this picture. I know he's a guest artist, but hopefully he comes back for the annual.

----------


## AJpyro

Finally read the Last Crusade. Pretty great Jason story.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not feeling Colak's Bizarro

https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...09814777032704

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Not feeling Colak's Bizarro
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...09814777032704


The only thing wrong is that DC has him wearing the stupid super suit, besides that it looks good.

----------


## Aioros22

Seems to have a more human face, but it doesn`t detracts me from anything.

----------


## Aioros22

> Finally read the Last Crusade. Pretty great Jason story.


Been awhile I read a story with such atmosphere in this médium. To me it felt like reading the Dark Knights Returns for the first time.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks good to me! Now I'm excited to see Colak's Artemis.

----------


## AJpyro

> Been awhile I read a story with such atmosphere in this médium. To me it felt like reading the Dark Knights Returns for the first time.


I know. There was a sense there. Of Aging. Of change and the fear of it. And some great characterization.

----------


## Aioros22

Best damn thing Miller has written in a while and it shows how he enjoyed writting Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And now in color

----------


## Aioros22

Absolutely love it. Best variants of the whole line.

----------


## G-Potion

So much love for this.

----------


## Aioros22

"The many faces of Jason Todd"

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/150...-just-ended-up


They all look good. This artist got a great line for Jay and his brothers.

----------


## The Whovian

> "The many faces of Jason Tood"
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/150...-just-ended-up
> 
> 
> They all look good. This artist got a great line for Jay and his brothers.


I like it. Cool

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Either we'll have a lot of flashbacks or Colak draws Jason awfully similar to Dick



https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...55902647984134

----------


## Aioros22

I`m banking on flasbacks. Jason looks younger to me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Either we'll have a lot of flashbacks or Colak draws Jason awfully similar to Dick
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...55902647984134


I'm going to go with flashbacks. He looks younger to me there.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason's entry in the newest edition of the DC Encyclopedia (might be a bit small, sorry):
> 
> Attachment 41232


I got the book for myself now. 
Jasons entry is really quite weak. Many other characters (like Alfred, Batwoman, Rene Montoya, James Gordon,  Arsenal, Starfire and most of the Batvillains) got bigger entries over a whole site. Jason entry has the same size as the one for Batwing and Talon (Cass and Steph entries are a little bit smaller).
And almost every other Batfamily ember got a more detailed list of Powers and Abilities (even Alfred, Talon, Batwing and Steph).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Either we'll have a lot of flashbacks or Colak draws Jason awfully similar to Dick
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...55902647984134


It's Jason



https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...47150586716160

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
“WHO IS ARTEMIS?” prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis’ past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
On sale MARCH 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+


ROCAFORT!!!!!

----------


## The Whovian

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “WHO IS ARTEMIS?” prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis’ past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
> On sale MARCH 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> 
> ROCAFORT!!!!!


Wow, how did DC pull this off? I thought Rocafort was exclusive to Marvel?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Wow, how did DC pull this off? I thought Rocafort was exclusive to Marvel?


I thought that as well but its possible that something has changed and that Rocafort is no longer Exclusive to Marvel. I can't keep up anymore with the mess Marvel has become with all their events and relaunches so I could be mistaken on that but I don't remember hearing anything about his being on a Marvel title post CWII either. Maybe some of you who keep up with Marvel currently can help clarify this matter?

----------


## RedQueen

So glad Rocafort is back is some shape or form. Especially on Outlaws after he was one of the best artists in New 52. I'd love to see him a be a fill in or something.

----------


## Aioros22

He`s been doing The Ultimates. It`s possible that he gets  a free scheduale while they manage the post CWII titles. I think some are already clarified, but not all. 

Both companies are a mess when editing events, from a Reading perspective I guess. Can`t say I woud do any better. Anyhow without knowing what form of contract obligation Rocafort has/had with Marvel, it`s all conjecture.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He`s been doing The Ultimates. It`s possible that he gets  a free scheduale while they manage the post CWII titles. I think some are already clarified, but not all. 
> 
> Both companies are a mess when editing events, from a Reading perspective I guess. Can`t say I woud do any better. Anyhow without knowing what form of contract obligation Rocafort has/had with Marvel, it`s all conjecture.


I'm not sure if he still is doing the art for Ultimates now though. That run has ended and Ultimates II has a different artist though the same writer if Comixology is to be believed.

Anyhow however this happened I'm still very glad to see Rocafort on Outlaws again, even if it's only as a guest artist.

----------


## AJpyro

Red hood rebirth #5 is in the top 20 of best books of the week.

Bit of a come down from last time but still quite high.

----------


## Rise

The next arc is going to be about Artemis? YES!




> Red hood rebirth #5 is in the top 20 of best books of the week.
> 
> Bit of a come down from last time but still quite high.


You mean comicxlogy list? It was on top 10 for the whole week and fell today to #11.

----------


## AJpyro

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> “WHO IS ARTEMIS?” prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis’ past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
> On sale MARCH 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> 
> ROCAFORT!!!!!


Forgot to comment on this. My reaction:

----------


## Kalethas31

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> WHO IS ARTEMIS? prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
> On sale MARCH 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T+
> 
> 
> ROCAFORT!!!!!


thanks God! he came back

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So, as issue 8 Scalera will stop doing Variants for the title, being replaced by Guillem March




> I'm proud to announce that I'll take care of the variant covers for the book RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS, brought to you by DC Entertainment. I'm more than excited because I've been out of American comics for a while, so I'm ready to rock these covers! The pic is a small portion of the first one. #dccomics #redhood #batman #gotham #jasontodd


https://www.instagram.com/p/BOQMf_cjN60/

I'll miss Scalera but March is off to a fantastic start



https://www.instagram.com/p/BORge8YjR45/

----------


## G-Potion

Will miss Scalera as well but I like what March shows here and can't wait to see more of his work. I trust RHATO editors to give us fantastic artists for the book, if Soy, Scalera, Colak and Rocafort are any indication.

----------


## RedQueen

I'm excited for how Jason will be when interacted with the Amazon mythos. He's handled sci fi and now it's full scale mythology which I think might be way more interesting and exploring Bana Mighdall which hasn't been touch on in years will definitely be more refreshing than a rehash of Themyscira, no shade to Themyscira though in the slightest, just exploring the "rogue" Amazons and the new take on them will be interesting. And from the solicit it appears at this point they haven't integrated into Themyscira yet so new worl building potential is always good.

----------


## Orujo-man

Wow, a lot of good stuff. Rocafort art is one of my favourites.

----------


## Savatewolf

Well he has encountered Amazons before in preflashpoint but it is interesting to see how things will be different now in Rebirth.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...27928077398016

Please drop a mention to Roy, please drop a mention to Roy

----------


## JasonTodd428

Please do drop a mention of Roy here.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s Loedbell. Chances are, he will. If Office was so adamantly against it, he wouldn`t have made it clear last issue that the prior volumes and events happened for Rebirth Ratho`s.

For some reason I can`t look at Crock and Jason sharing the same story without thinking of "Last Crusade" now. Sweet Miller.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hmmm, not really a good look for Jason, too Grayson-like


https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...62618664751104

----------


## Aahz

> Hmmm, not really a good look for Jason, too Grayson-like


They should really give each of the Robins a signature hair style.

----------


## adrikito

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> WHO IS ARTEMIS? prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
> On sale MARCH 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T+
> 
> 
> ROCAFORT!!!!!


Good cover... A new saga focused in Artemis.. the Bow of Ra is near to being acquired by her.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They should really give each of the Robins a signature hair style.


Tried that, no one liked it

----------


## RedQueen

> They should really give each of the Robins a signature hair style.


I'd settle for the white stripe back. Iconic visual and makes him stand out amongst the robins.

----------


## RedQueen

> Tried that, no one liked it


I'll forever associated that haircut with Justin Bieber. I like the idea of a scar through the eyebrow though. Or if Jason did that grooming for the eyebrow for an aesthetic then nevermind.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'd settle for the white stripe back. Iconic visual and makes him stand out amongst the robins.


"Iconic" is hugely debatable, it has only showed up _twice_ in more than a decade, one wasn't really Jason and the other was with Morrison. The animated movie that is from which most people are familiar with Jason nowadays doesn't have it either.

----------


## Aahz

> Tried that, no one liked it


I think there were artists who made it look better. And it doesn't have to be this hair cut. But it is imo the easiest way to make the robins look different, and in this picture one reason why he looks like Dick.




> I like the idea of a scar through the eyebrow though.


Scars are also OK, aslong as it is not the J scar from the arkham games.




> "Iconic" is hugely debatable, it has only showed up _twice_ in more than a decade, one wasn't really Jason and the other was with Morrison. The animated movie that is from which most people are familiar with Jason nowadays doesn't have it either.


But it is still quite popular among fanartists.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think there were artists who made it look better. And it doesn't have to be this hair cut. But it is imo the easiest way to make the robins look different, and in this picture one reason why he looks like Dick.


No other artist bothered on using that haircut. Soy has found a good way to draw Jason anyways.




> But it is still quite popular among fanartists.


Your point being? Yaoi is also quite popular among fanartists.

----------


## Aioros22

And it kind of looks good or can look good and be distinctive, that`s maybe part of the point. 

Anyhow, it`s all asthetics and it all depends on artists.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And it kind of looks good or can look good and be distinctive, that`s maybe part of the point. 
> 
> Anyhow, it`s all asthetics and it all depends on artists.


That wasn't the argument though. The argument was on how accurate was to claim the skunk stripe is "_iconic_" despite only being used on two stories more than a decade now. If anything, the actual _iconic_ look of Jason would be this one



Oh, and have another tease of March's upcoming Variant

----------


## Aioros22

I`ll give it to you on the iconic. On the same note, it could easily be made iconic tho. It`s distinctive enough and doesn`t visually detract the character. It`s a layer. 

Really, really sad that the change of artists on variants but really really happy that it`s March.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I`ll give it to you on the iconic. On the same note, it could easily be made iconic tho. It`s distinctive enough and doesn`t visually detract the character. It`s a layer.


Is been more than a decade since DC used the skunk stripe, I'd say that makes pretty clear that is not how they want to market the character.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is been more than a decade since DC used the skunk stripe, I'd say that makes pretty clear that is not how they want to market the character.


Was told by someone in the know that the white stripe was acknowledged by DC as heavily requested in Rebirth, and actually got written in the first drafts of RHATO. Let's see if it's scrapped or reserved for later.

That said, thanks Mikel Janin for stealth adding it in that Grayson issue of RW.

----------


## RedQueen

> I`ll give it to you on the iconic. On the same note, it could easily be made iconic tho. It`s distinctive enough and doesn`t visually detract the character. It`s a layer.


I agree on this assessment. The robins pretty much look the same and a white stripe would make Jason stand out. Also I can't picture Rogue without her iconic skunk stripe, so Jason having a similar visual would make him more recognizable. Having a visual marker could help his "brand" recognition.

the stripe is pretty "iconic" amongst the fandom from what I've seen and with comic book artists drawing Tim, Jason and Dick as pretty much the same I can easily see why fandom gravitates toward the idea of the stripe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Was told by someone in the know that the white stripe was acknowledged by DC as heavily requested in Rebirth, and actually got written in the first drafts of RHATO. Let's see if it's scrapped or reserved for later.
> 
> That said, thanks Mikel Janin for stealth adding it in that Grayson issue of RW.


After five issues in, I think we can safely assume the idea was scrapped once again.

----------


## Aahz

> Is been more than a decade since DC used the skunk stripe, I'd say that makes pretty clear that is not how they want to market the character.


He had him actually in Futures End.

And I don't think that many of Jasons fans would have a problem if the stripe would return (opposed giving him red hair again).

Even some DC Artists  draw him with the stripe in comissions/fan art like for example Marcus To.

----------


## Fergus

> I agree on this assessment. The robins pretty much look the same and a white stripe would make Jason stand out. Also I can't picture Rogue without her iconic skunk stripe, so Jason having a similar visual would make him more recognizable. Having a visual marker could help his "brand" recognition.
> 
> the stripe is pretty "iconic" amongst the fandom from what I've seen and with comic book artists drawing Tim, Jason and Dick as pretty much the same I can easily see why fandom gravitates toward the idea of the stripe.


This 100% I like Jason with the stripe it makes him easily recognisable amongst the often clone like batboys and it's a good look on him.

----------


## Rise

> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...27928077398016
> 
> Please drop a mention to Roy, please drop a mention to Roy


Killer Croc!

I am really liking what Mirako is showing so far and I can't wait to see his final work!

----------


## Rise

> This 100% I like Jason with the stripe it makes him easily recognisable amongst the often clone like batboys and it's a good look on him.


I would love to see Jason with the white strpe again too. 

Come on, DC. Bring it back.  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He had him actually in Futures End.


You mean this?



That is not a stripe, that is his hair being damp due an injury, the blood is even trickling down his face.




> Even some DC Artists  draw him with the stripe in *comissions*/fan art like for example Marcus To.


That is the functional word, in that case they will draw Jason as the commissioner wishes. I actually went looking at To's galleries and all the times he has drawn Jason unmasked is with commissions.

Honestly, I don't think that the stripe is needed. At this point it simply feels like some fans wanting him to be "an special snowflake" even though the complexions of the boys have been quite varied from a while now. Issues about the boys looking too similar come down to lazy/bad artists not bothering to be accurate with them.

----------


## REAL

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #8
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by guest artist KENNETH ROCAFORT
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> WHO IS ARTEMIS? prologue! As Red Hood and the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall, shocking secrets from Artemis past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits!
> On sale MARCH 8  32 pg, FC, $2.99 US  RATED T+
> 
> 
> ROCAFORT!!!!!


Rocafort is back and the outlaws are going to Bana-Mighdall? Sign me in!

----------


## REAL

> Was told by someone in the know that the white stripe was acknowledged by DC as heavily requested in Rebirth, and actually got written in the first drafts of RHATO. Let's see if it's scrapped or reserved for later.
> 
> That said, thanks Mikel Janin for stealth adding it in that Grayson issue of RW.


Pretty interesting. I actually thought that they would bring it back in Rebirth and was suprised when they didn't. 

It's doesn't really matter much to me if they did or not though. 




> Killer Croc!
> 
> I am really liking what Mirako is showing so far and I can't wait to see his final work!


Yeah, his work isn't bad and I liked that he shared his work with us.

----------


## Aioros22

> Is been more than a decade since DC used the skunk stripe, I'd say that makes pretty clear that is not how they want to market the character.


Sure, no disagreement there. I`m just pointing out a visual cue that to me would look cool, distinctive and could be made iconic. DC doesn`t have to agree with _me_ on something that I see that potentially could work because they prefer to market the boys in similar fashion. 

Which is exactly the reason why I`d prefer him to have it. Artists are either lazy or have too much work to make the boys distinctivaly unique save for heigh /mass and the ocasional haircut outside the costumes.

----------


## adrikito

> That wasn't the argument though. The argument was on how accurate was to claim the skunk stripe is "_iconic_" despite only being used on two stories more than a decade now. If anything, the actual _iconic_ look of Jason would be this one


This Post-Crisis Jason look awesome... I remember see that... He fights against Tim..

----------


## Rise

It's looks like Batsy is showing up next issue.  :Cool:

----------


## The Whovian

I love Batman, but I think it's too early for him to make an appearance. Just keep rolling with Jason, Artemis and Bizzaro.

----------


## REAL

He isn't taking over the book, dude. 




> It's looks like Batsy is showing up next issue.


It's expected because the first arc is going to end next month. It will be interesting to see how the conversation between him and Jaso will go tho.

----------


## Aioros22

> Pretty interesting. I actually thought that they would bring it back in Rebirth and was suprised when they didn't.
> 
> It's doesn't really matter much to me if they did or not though.


Yeah same. It`s not a dealbreaker but it`s sure something that to my taste would look good and add a flava.

----------


## Aioros22

> He isn't taking over the book, dude. 
> 
> 
> 
> It's expected because the first arc is going to end next month. It will be interesting to see how the conversation between him and Jaso will go tho.


Yeah, it all started with Jason and Batsy talking about what next for Jason. Well, what next starts next issue with dealing with Black Mask.

----------


## Aahz

Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:

- Trinity
- Titans
- Teen Titans
- Super Sons

I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).

----------


## kaimaciel

> Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:
> 
> - Trinity
> - Titans
> - Teen Titans
> - Super Sons
> 
> I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).



I would love a Trinity or Titans crossover. That would force DC to acknowledge that Jason and Roy were together in a comic series for 5 years. 

But honestly, I don't think it will happen. RHatO is often ignored by the other books, just look what happened with Kori and Roy. They never mention Jason or their team, it's like it never happened, like Dr. Manhattan made it all up and then erased it from their memories.

----------


## REAL

Jason, Roy and Kori appeard as a team in Action Comics and were acknowledged in Superman, BR, BE, TT and the Arsenal issue. Not to mention that Jason has many appearances in different books that acknowledged his book. They hardly were ignored in n52.

And about Rebirth, comics are never ending cycle of rectons because some writers don't bother with previous continuity if it doesn't fit their narrative. It's not exclusive to RHATO and Lobdell has already confirmed that the current series is a third chapter of the first two books.

----------


## REAL

> Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:
> 
> - Trinity
> - Titans
> - Teen Titans
> - Super Sons
> 
> I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).


I don't care about Titans, TT and Supersons, but I wouldn't mind to see a meeting between the outlaws and trinity.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason, Roy and Kori appeard as a team in Action Comics and were acknowledged in Superman, BR, BE, TT and the Arsenal issue. Not to mention that Jason has many appearances in different books that acknowledged his book. They hardly were ignored in n52.
> 
> And about Rebirth, comics are never ending cycle of rectons because some writers don't bother with previous continuity if it doesn't fit their narrative. It's not exclusive to RHATO and Lobdell has already confirmed that the current series is a third chapter of the first two books.


Hear hear!

I don`t get this notion that Outlaws was always ignored but that aside, Trinity and Outlaws is where the money is. The rest can eventually happen but aren`t as exciting.

----------


## G-Potion

> Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:
> 
> - Trinity
> - Titans
> - Teen Titans
> - Super Sons
> 
> I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).


Trinity/Outlaws is the obvious draw here. Titans and Teen Titans, if it's not about Roy and Kory crossing path with Jason then I couldn't care less. A teamup with the whole team would get too crowded for my taste anyway. Now Super Sons I would be more excited if Damian hasn't so far got away with treating Jason like crap too many times. So, no.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:
> 
> - Trinity
> - Titans
> - Teen Titans
> - Super Sons
> 
> I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).


Let's see

-Trinity: Only if the Superman is Superbro. I have zero interest on reading about Superdad.
-TT and Titans: I only care for Roy and Kori so whatever.
-Super Sons: Why would be the point? Jason and Damian aren't really close and Jon is a non entity in that equation.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What the hell?
https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...70828912562176

----------


## Korath

> What the hell?
> https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...70828912562176


Looks like a robot Croc, if you ask me.

----------


## Aioros22

I think so too, those seem like internal circuits. It would also explain Bizarro not holding back in a fashion.

----------


## Red obin

> Which of the following current series would you most like to have a cross over with RHatO:
> 
> - Trinity
> - Titans
> - Teen Titans
> - Super Sons
> 
> I think a team up of both Trinities could be great, but I really would like to see Jason and Damian teaming up, and Jon meeting Bizzaro could also be fun (and Maya and Artemis).


Trinity: Best option here with the whole dark trinity theme, this is also the most likely.
Titans:Possible but not great. Nightwing/Red hood and Artemis/Donna would be good. Roy and Jason would be a nice reunion. Actually the more I think about it the more I like it. Maybe same goals makes a forced team in of but both teams are reluctant. Nightwing does not trust Jason, Artemis does not trust Donna(if her origin is still intact), so Roy and Jaosn take leading roles. 
Teen titans: Dure Jason and Damian or Jason and Starfire but very little potential otherwise.
Super sons: Unlikely as super sons is a more fun book but rhato is darker. It would not be that good. Bizzaro and Jon wouldn't work well, and Damian has already crossed over in original rhato, or could be done again in teen titans.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Soy confirms he will be back by issue 9

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/814881140448194560

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Why Rocafort, why

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOnsSOkB...rafia_kr&hl=es

----------


## Aioros22

He seems to to want to stick drawing his own hood. Luckily his whole graphic style is amazingly catchy and well executed. 

Still..isn`t this the sort of situation where an editor should psst in? Something like Sandman being sligthly different according to interpretation seems one thing. A helmet that is supposed to be faceless tho..

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He seems to to want to stick drawing his own hood. Luckily his whole graphic style is amazingly catchy and well executed. 
> 
> Still..isn`t this the sort of situation where an editor should psst in? Something like Sandman being sligthly different according to interpretation seems one thing. A helmet that is supposed to be faceless tho..


I don't see what the big deal is if all he's doing is being a guest artist for a single issue. If he was going to be on the book for a more extended run then yeah I could see the complaint but its just one issue. It's not as if the faceless helmet is being kicked to the curb.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s not a big deal for a one issue, agreed. Still, just saying.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It is irritating though. And I swear to god that if this ends with Jason having an expressive helmet on upcoming crossovers...

----------


## adrikito

> It's looks like Batsy is showing up next issue.


... Or maybe is a flasback... But we are in gotham, is possible.. and seems that WW can appear in the next Artemis saga..

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is not a flashback, he's wearing his Capullo costume.

----------


## adrikito

> Is not a flashback, he's wearing his Capullo costume.


I say that because I remember the Gotham and Gotham Girl flashback and he wears the same rebirth costume..

batman3origins-jpg.jpg

Same or... SIMILAR COSTUME.. This image without colors seems the same rebirth costume

----------


## The Whovian

> It is irritating though. And I swear to god that if this ends with Jason having an expressive helmet on upcoming crossovers...


LOL! If that happened though, I would be super ticked.

----------


## Rise

> Jason, Roy and Kori appeard as a team in Action Comics and were acknowledged in Superman, BR, BE, TT and* the Arsenal issue*. Not to mention that Jason has many appearances in different books that acknowledged his book. They hardly were ignored in n52.
> 
> And about Rebirth, comics are never ending cycle of rectons because some writers don't bother with previous continuity if it doesn't fit their narrative. It's not exclusive to RHATO and Lobdell has already confirmed that the current series is a third chapter of the first two books.


That issue has a really adorable Outlaws moment.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOoWkrDhoU4/?hl=es

Who are these guys with Jay and Artemis?

----------


## REAL

Spiky: Just a city boy
Born and raised in South Detroit

Farmer: Just a small town guy
Livin' in a lonely world

And I guess that Bizarro behind Artemis?

----------


## Rise

Jan, did you just quote this from pop song? Seriously lol.

----------


## REAL

Yep and it fit.

----------


## Rise

Strangly, it does.

And happy new year, Jan.  :Big Grin: 

How is rebirth with you so far?

----------


## REAL

Thanks and happy new year to you  :Cool: 

I think it's fine so far. RHATO, New Super-man and Superman have been enjoyable. Batman on the other hand truned out to be such a disappointment, but oh well.

----------


## Rise

Batman still hasn't improved? 

RHATO has been a favorite of mine and I dropped so many books except Trinity and Wonder Woman. 

Is NSM worth picking up? I have heard so many good things about it and you seem to really like it.

----------


## REAL

Amazingly it got worse 

And definitely, the characters are likable and the first arc was good. Give it a try.

----------


## Rise

I will.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's hoping issue 7 is as cathartic as issues 17 and 18 of the old RHATO were

https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...13840635904000

----------


## Kalethas31

> That issue has a really adorable Outlaws moment.


what issue?

----------


## Aioros22

Man, RATHO really ruined Roy. 

Le sarcasm is on.

----------


## Aahz

> what issue?


DC Universe presents #17.

Btw. what do you think of Roy's portrait in Rebirth sofar?

----------


## dietrich

> That issue has a really adorable Outlaws moment.


This page is so sweet. I want their sofa  :Smile:

----------


## Kalethas31

> DC Universe presents #17.
> 
> Btw. what do you think of Roy's portrait in Rebirth sofar?


yeah i remamber  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Artemis looking good



https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...89247292473344

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Artemis looking good
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...89247292473344


Artemis looks great in those.

----------


## Aioros22

March with that Adams-esque texture inking!

I`ve been collecting my Rebirth Outlaws always with the variants and it seems I`ll be keeping doing that.

----------


## Aioros22

> That issue has a really adorable Outlaws moment.


By the way, how many avatar-doers are in this thread? I`d love one of each face, it`s just too awesome. Or should I take it to a general DC avatar Thread..?

----------


## Aahz



----------


## dietrich

> 


Awwww

Kori's missing tooth
Roy's freckles and scout uniform
but cutest of all Lil Jason...........

Squirt guns at the ready
laces undone
Legs all scraped up 
Bat overalls and that look on his face. No F**Ks given

So much adorableness.

----------


## G-Potion

> By the way, how many avatar-doers are in this thread? I`d love one of each face, it`s just too awesome. Or should I take it to a general DC avatar Thread..?


Simple crop jobs here, but feel free to request if you have any specifics in mind.
Jason.jpg Jason2.jpg Jason3.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Roy.jpg Roy2.jpg Roy3.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Kory.jpg Kory2.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You know, is pretty telling the way people still have attachment to the original Outlaws despite the critical panning and them not being a thing for two years now.

----------


## dietrich

> You know, is pretty telling the way people still have attachment to the original Outlaws despite the critical panning and them not being a thing for two years now.


Because they were a good team and we have fond memories of them

----------


## scary harpy

> 


Roy Harper as a boy scout. 

Boy scout Roy.

Riotous laughter doesn't begin to cover this.

----------


## Cass_Cain

Awww this is so cute

----------


## Aioros22

Thanks so much G XD 

I feel ashamed to say I never dabled much in making avatars so I`m not sure if is just crop game. 

Now that I see this boy scout Roy..Yeah I want it, so I`ll try it out  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> You know, is pretty telling the way people still have attachment to the original Outlaws despite the critical panning and them not being a thing for two years now.


The artistic fandom loved it. I can get behind the segment of general audience (or bat eudience) that had issues with it, it`s valid. But the vocal haterage I could see was from the Teen Titans fanbase.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Scrapped page from upcoming issue 7



https://twitter.com/ColakMirko/statu...10004079702018

----------


## G-Potion

Really like the bottom panel. Hope the finish product will have flashback of Roy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

My sides

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...ans-play-catch

----------


## Aioros22

Marvelous! 

The new Outlaws are quickly spreading and becoming a favorite too  :Cool:

----------


## AJpyro

Good old family bonding.

----------


## Korath

> My sides
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...ans-play-catch


Excellent ! I hope that someone at D.C. sees it and decide to use it in a cooling-off issue XD !

----------


## Aioros22

Heck, This is the kind of  bonus content you could/should have at the end of each issue.

----------


## The Whovian

Just read RHATO #6

This book.....I mean, how much better can it get?? Every issue is like opening a new gift under the Christmas tree. My favorite part of the issue was the meeting and talk between Bruce and Jason. THIS is how they should act towards each other. A mutual respect and admiration, even if they don't totally agree on everything. And that flashback scene between them was great too. 

This RHATO is officially better than the first series. Hands down!

----------


## Aioros22

> Just read RHATO #6
> 
> This book.....I mean, how much better can it get?? Every issue is like opening a new gift under the Christmas tree. *My favorite part of the issue was the meeting and talk between Bruce and Jason. THIS is how they should act towards each other. A mutual respect and admiration, even if they don't totally agree on everything*. And that flashback scene between them was great too. 
> 
> This RHATO is officially better than the first series. Hands down!


Imagine that!  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> My sides
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...ans-play-catch


Hahahaha... I must search more fun images of these 3...

----------


## yagha

Hey, just joined the forums today and I wanted to pledge my loyalty to the Jason-mash.

Every time the dude appears next to Batman he steals the limelight, even though the Caped Crusader is usually my fav superhero.

----------


## AJpyro

> Hey, just joined the forums today and I wanted to pledge my loyalty to the Jason-mash.
> 
> Every time the dude appears next to Batman he steals the limelight, even though the Caped Crusader is usually my fav superhero.


Welcome friend. Have you gotten Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth yet?

----------


## yagha

> Welcome friend. Have you gotten Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth yet?


Yup. Been really digging the Dark Trinity. Looks like there's plentiful times ahead for our wayward Robin!

Also read Miller's The Last Crusade a few months back, and enjoyed it a lot.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yup. Been really digging the Dark Trinity. Looks like there's plentiful times ahead for our wayward Robin!
> 
> Also read Miller's The Last Crusade a few months back, and enjoyed it a lot.


Welcome to the forums friend. I've been really digging the Dark Trinity too and personally I think RHATO is the best Rebirth book by far. I still need to read Last Crusade though.

----------


## yagha

> Welcome to the forums friend. I've been really digging the Dark Trinity too and personally I think RHATO is the best Rebirth book by far. I still need to read Last Crusade though.


Thanks! I agree, the lineup for RHATO is just so damn fresh!

As for the Last Crusade, just remember that the comic is 65% Bruce and 35% Jason, more or less. I agree with most reviewers that say it should've been volume-length. Bruce is great in it, though, imo.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thanks! I agree, the lineup for RHATO is just so damn fresh!
> 
> As for the Last Crusade, just remember that the comic is 65% Bruce and 35% Jason, more or less. I agree with most reviewers that say it should've been volume-length. Bruce is great in it, though, imo.


You're welcome! I've been a fan of Jason Todd since back in his Robin days so I'm happy that he not only has an ongoing book but that it's as good as it is. As for Last Crusade I did see that some reviewers saying that and I won't be surprised if I feel the same.

----------


## The Whovian

> Hey, just joined the forums today and I wanted to pledge my loyalty to the Jason-mash.
> 
> Every time the dude appears next to Batman he steals the limelight, even though the Caped Crusader is usually my fav superhero.


Welcome to the boards!  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Hey, just joined the forums today and I wanted to pledge my loyalty to the Jason-mash.
> 
> Every time the dude appears next to Batman he steals the limelight, even though the Caped Crusader is usually my fav superhero.


Hey glad to have you! What a time to be here discussing Jason.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

The pledge of the Hood is sacred. You are forever welcome among the mist of the rebellion  :Cool:

----------


## Savatewolf

So I haven't kept up with New 52 RHATO and I have to ask, whatever happened to Essence? I haven't seen her in some pages of later RHATO issues and the wikia for DC comics only talks of her past and that's it but no mention of her being dead or alive. So what happened to her?

----------


## AJpyro

> So I haven't kept up with New 52 RHATO and I have to ask, whatever happened to Essence? I haven't seen her in some pages of later RHATO issues and the wikia for DC comics only talks of her past and that's it but no mention of her being dead or alive. So what happened to her?


Limbo at the moment. She showed up at the tail end of RHatO vol 1.

----------


## Orujo-man

> So I haven't kept up with New 52 RHATO and I have to ask, whatever happened to Essence? I haven't seen her in some pages of later RHATO issues and the wikia for DC comics only talks of her past and that's it but no mention of her being dead or alive. So what happened to her?



She absorbed the powers of the Untitled when Ra's was defeated by Jason and stayed in the Chamber of All to restore the All-Caste.

Later she healed Roy when Starfire burned him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...with-me-is-how

----------


## Orujo-man

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...with-me-is-how


that's funny :Wink: 

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/red-h...-the-outlaws-8

By the way guys, look who appears as starring in Red hood and The Outlaws #8, in DC page.

----------


## Aioros22

> that's funny
> 
> http://www.dccomics.com/comics/red-h...-the-outlaws-8
> 
> By the way guys, look who appears as starring in Red hood and The Outlaws #8, in DC page.


Picture is taking a sweet time to fully load to me. Who is it? Essence? Ducra? 

I hope Ducra and the All-Caste show up soon, that was one of the best thing about vol.1

----------


## Drako

> Picture is taking a sweet time to fully load to me. Who is it? Essence? Ducra? 
> 
> I hope Ducra and the All-Caste show up soon, that was one of the best thing about vol.1


He is talking about Arsenal who appears on the section "starring", bottom of the page.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Picture is taking a sweet time to fully load to me. Who is it? Essence? Ducra? 
> 
> I hope Ducra and the All-Caste show up soon, that was one of the best thing about vol.1


Nope, I talk about Roy. His image appears in the block "starring".  So I think he will appear in a flashback or something like that in the issue. That, or DC mistake.

The only reference of the past Outlaws was Crux at this moment.

----------


## Savatewolf

Ah ok thanks guys, guess we'll see if she shows up again

----------


## dietrich

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/155...with-me-is-how


That is funny.

----------


## Marcus

Hi everyone! 
Jason Todd has been my all time favorite. I want to hunt down every key issues of him, or if possible, probably every appearance he has ever been in someday lol. I actually spent a lot of time researching on them and I have listed some that I know of below in order of the DC timeline. Some might not be key issues, but they are a good read in my case. I've also listed the ones which he is on the cover. Please feel free to comment below if I'm missing any & I will edit the list.

*Pre Crisis*
*Batman #357* - Jason Todd 1st appearance.
*Detective Comics #526* - Jason Todd 1st ever appearance in a costume, not the Robin costume, and his second cameo appearance. Also, Bruce adopts Jason.
*Batman #366* - Jason Todd 1st appearance in a Robin costume. (Not approve by Bruce Wayne yet) Also, he dyes his hair black.
*Batman #367* - Jason officially becomes Batman partner for the 1st time. Also features Jason trying to figure a new name for his persona, & his first suggestion was "Ishmael" Lol. However, Batman unknowingly called him Robin and I guessed that's how they decided to stick with it.
*Batman #368* - Dick Grayson passes on the mantle of Robin to Jason Todd. Also Jason's 1st official appearance as the new Robin

*Post-Crisis*
*Batman #408* - Jason Todd 1st appearance in Post-Crisis, origin is retold.
*Batman #409* - Jason becomes Robin.
*Batman #410* - Batman gives Jason his first Robin costume. (Not the original worn by Dick Grayson) Jason learned that his dad was a criminal who was murdered by Two Face.
*Batman #416* - Nightwing hands over his old Robin costume to Jason.
*Batman #422* - The first time Batman notice that Jason was very violent, or more violent than he expected.
*Batman #424* - The most controversial moment prior to his death. Apparently he "murdered" someone, or let him fall to his death.
*Batman #426-#429* (A Death in a Family Arc) Goodbye Jason. In the issue #427, fans were able to call in & vote for Jason's fate.
*Batman #441* - The issue shows how Batman struggles with the death of Jason.
*Detective Comics #605* - 1st cameo appearance of Jason Todd after he died but turned out to be Clayface.
*Detective Comics #606* - Jason's ghost is on the cover of this issue.
*Batman #617* - The return of Jason after years of absence, only to be Clayface in the Hush arc.
*Batman #635-641*, *#645-650*, Annual #25 (Under the Hood arc)
*Batman #635* - 1st appearance of the Red Hood.
*Batman #638* - Red Hood revealed to be Jason.
*Batman #683* - Jason is given the choice to become Robin, and it’s a choice he wants to honor.

*Battle for the Cowl*
*Batman: Battle for the Cowl #1* - Jason first appearance as Batman.
*Batman: Battle for the Cowl #3* - Jason is on the cover of this issue.

*Red Hood: The Lost Days #1-6* - The resurrection of Jason Todd.

*Pre New 52*
*Batman & Robin vol 1 #4-6*  - "Revenge of the Red Hood arc." First appearance of Grant Morrison's Red Hood in his new costume.
*Batman & Robin vol 1 #23-25*  - "The Streets Run Red arc" Jason Todd without costume is on the variant issue in #25.

*New 52*
*Batman & Robin vol 2 #20* - or Batman & Red Hood.
*Red Hood & The Outlaws #0* - DC Reboot & the retold origin of Jason Todd.
*Red Hood & The Outlaws #1-52* - Finally Jason's first ongoing title & also focus on Jason's redemption.
*Red Hood/Arsenal* #1-13 - After the Outlaws split, Jason teams up with Arsenal again as heroes for hire.
*Robin War #2* - Red Hood is on the variant cover by Lee Bermejo.

*Arkham Knight*
*Batman: Arkham Knight #1-13* - Base of the the video game, & the other awesome alter ego of Jason.
*Batman: Arkham Knight Genesis #1-6* - The events leading to how Jason becomes the Arkham Knight.

*Rebirth*
*Red Hood & the Outlaws Rebirth #1-* Hell yeah! A new lineup for the outlaws.
*Dark Knight: The Last Crusade* - The events leading to The Dark Knight Returns, Jason death is retold here.

*
Notable Mentions*
*Batman: The Dark Knight Returns* - Jason death was briefly mentioned (which might influence the death of Jason), and his death was probably a contributing factor to Batman's retirement in this story.

Attachment 43915

----------


## REAL

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #9

“Who is Artemis?” part one! When Artemis discovers that the Bow of Ra has been used to destroy an entire city, Red Hood and the Outlaws race to Qurac to discover the identity of this barbaric bowman—and who they find is too shocking to believe!

Soy is back again and it's seems we got a new artist for the covers.

----------


## Aioros22

> He is talking about Arsenal who appears on the section "starring", bottom of the page.







Kudos, I can see it now. Hopefully we get to see at least a flashback with him now that we know the past rendition of Outlaws still counts.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #9
> 
> “Who is Artemis?” part one! When Artemis discovers that the Bow of Ra has been used to destroy an entire city, Red Hood and the Outlaws race to Qurac to discover the identity of this barbaric bowman—and who they find is too shocking to believe!
> 
> Soy is back again and it's seems we got a new artist for the covers.


I'm glad they keep the globetrotting aspect. Is anyone here familiar with Artemis's lore? I'm curious to know if this character in the back is new or old. Love her design though.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I'm still astounded at the quality of the current Outlaws. I even enjoyed Batman here more than the 2 main Batman books.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hi everyone! 
> Jason Todd has been my all time favorite. I want to hunt down every key issues of him, or if possible, probably every appearance he has ever been in someday lol. I actually spent a lot of time researching on them and I have listed some that I know of below in order of the DC timeline. Some might not be key issues, but they are a good read in my case. I've also listed the ones which he is on the cover. Please feel free to comment below if I'm missing any & I will edit the list.
> 
> *Pre Crisis*
> *Batman #357* - Jason Todd 1st appearance.
> *Detective Comics #526* - Jason Todd 1st ever appearance in a costume, not the Robin costume, and his second cameo appearance. Also, Bruce adopts Jason.
> *Batman #366* - Jason Todd 1st appearance in a Robin costume. (Not approve by Bruce Wayne yet) Also, he dyes his hair black.
> *Batman #367* - Jason officially becomes Batman partner for the 1st time. Also features Jason trying to figure a new name for his persona, & his first suggestion was "Ishmael" Lol. However, Batman unknowingly called him Robin and I guessed that's how they decided to stick with it.
> *Batman #368* - Dick Grayson passes on the mantle of Robin to Jason Todd. Also Jason's 1st official appearance as the new Robin
> ...


Nice list, only a minor correction. RHATO V1 only ran for 40 issues plus two annuals, it never got to the mythical 52 issue. 

What is your criteria for this list by the way? Because there are missing quite a bit of his appearances through the N52/DCYOU era. Just off the top of my mind, the entire Robin War (terrible as it was) story, Robin Rises and the original Robin War in B&R issues 9 to 11




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #9
> 
> Who is Artemis? part one! When Artemis discovers that the Bow of Ra has been used to destroy an entire city, Red Hood and the Outlaws race to Qurac to discover the identity of this barbaric bowmanand who they find is too shocking to believe!
> 
> Soy is back again and it's seems we got a new artist for the covers.


Nicola Scott is certainly an artist I enjoy but I don't quite like her rendition of Artemis, good to know Soy is back though. I wonder who is the amazon in the background?




> Kudos, I can see it now. Hopefully we get to see at least a flashback with him now that we know the past rendition of Outlaws still counts.


I checked previous issues on DC's site to see what characters were highlighted to discard any possible mix up, and turns out Bizarro and Batman are the only ones to be highlighted like that. So, it seems Roy will indeed have a role in issue 8 after all.

----------


## Orujo-man

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #9
> 
> Who is Artemis? part one! When Artemis discovers that the Bow of Ra has been used to destroy an entire city, Red Hood and the Outlaws race to Qurac to discover the identity of this barbaric bowmanand who they find is too shocking to believe!
> 
> Soy is back again and it's seems we got a new artist for the covers.


Nice cover and I'm glad to see Soy is coming back to the series.

I only has a little disappointment with the cover, like the other covers I must say. I want Artemis' axe bigger, like in the series. The tiny axe of the cover is like a toy for her.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...07813139775489



Damn!

----------


## Orujo-man

> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...07813139775489
> 
> 
> 
> Damn!


I don't know if it's the pose or the artist but I see Jason more bulky. I like it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm glad they keep the globetrotting aspect. Is anyone here familiar with Artemis's lore? I'm curious to know if this character in the back is new or old. Love her design though.


Nice cover there. Looking forward to the the issue. 




> I'm still astounded at the quality of the current Outlaws. I even enjoyed Batman here more than the 2 main Batman books.


I also still amazed by it as well even though I loved the book from the start even with the flaws it had. I'm enjoying it far more now though. It's more polished this time around for one thing and the team building that Lobdell has been doing is stronger this time around. The artistic end of the creative team has been stellar as well. Soy and Gandini are giving this book a tone through the line work and coloring that fits really well with the characters and the type of story being told.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I also still amazed by it as well even though I loved the book from the start even with the flaws it had. I'm enjoying it far more now though. It's more polished this time around for one thing and the team building that Lobdell has been doing is stronger this time around. The artistic end of the creative team has been stellar as well. Soy and Gandini are giving this book a tone through the line work and coloring that fits really well with the characters and the type of story being told.


I agree with you with Soy and Gandini's work and I very interested in how they deal with the change of location, Qurac it's pretty opposite to Gotham. Let's see what happens.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m glad Soy is returning and I like Nicola Scott but I`d prefer Gandini on standard covers myself. Or him and Soy trading arcs, but that`s asking too much given how he`s got ASM on active duty.

----------


## Aioros22

> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...07813139775489
> 
> 
> 
> Damn!


Might just be me but I see March channeling Claudio Castellini. That`s totally his torso. And the ink on legs screams Barry Windsor Smith. 

Me likey.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I`m glad Soy is returning and I like Nicola Scott but I`d prefer Gandini on standard covers myself. Or him and Soy trading arcs, but that`s asking too much given how he`s got ASM on active duty.


Camuncoli you mean. Gandini is Soy's colorist.

----------


## Aioros22

I must be breaking some personal record with name mixings this week. Yeah, Camuncoli.

----------


## Marcus

> Nice list, only a minor correction. RHATO V1 only ran for 40 issues plus two annuals, it never got to the mythical 52 issue. 
> 
> What is your criteria for this list by the way? Because there are missing quite a bit of his appearances through the N52/DCYOU era. Just off the top of my mind, the entire Robin War (terrible as it was) story, Robin Rises and the original Robin War in B&R issues 9 to 11



Hey thanks! Anyway I posted the list in a new thread here so that it won't mess up the page here lol.
http://community.comicbookresources....odd-Key-Issues

I'm looking for key issues, also for awesome covers that features him, so they don't actually have to be key issues.
But whatever I'm missing, could you them? I will be getting my first ever graded slab soon, its Batman #408. I personally like RHATO #18 cover a lot, and I love the second print variant even more. I was trying to find a CGC copy of that but so far I have no luck.

----------


## G-Potion

Good one, Dexter Soy!  :Wink:  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Good one, Dexter Soy!  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857


Chuckle. I got kick out of that image.

----------


## fanfan13

> Hi everyone! 
> Jason Todd has been my all time favorite. I want to hunt down every key issues of him, or if possible, probably every appearance he has ever been in someday lol. I actually spent a lot of time researching on them and I have listed some that I know of below in order of the DC timeline. Some might not be key issues, but they are a good read in my case. I've also listed the ones which he is on the cover. Please feel free to comment below if I'm missing any & I will edit the list.
> 
> *Pre Crisis*
> *Batman #357* - Jason Todd 1st appearance.
> *Detective Comics #526* - Jason Todd 1st ever appearance in a costume, not the Robin costume, and his second cameo appearance. Also, Bruce adopts Jason.
> *Batman #366* - Jason Todd 1st appearance in a Robin costume. (Not approve by Bruce Wayne yet) Also, he dyes his hair black.
> *Batman #367* - Jason officially becomes Batman partner for the 1st time. Also features Jason trying to figure a new name for his persona, & his first suggestion was "Ishmael" Lol. However, Batman unknowingly called him Robin and I guessed that's how they decided to stick with it.
> *Batman #368* - Dick Grayson passes on the mantle of Robin to Jason Todd. Also Jason's 1st official appearance as the new Robin
> ...


Whoa, thank you! I need this list to know more about Jason  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> Good one, Dexter Soy!  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857


HAAAAHHAHAHAHA... Good work Bizarro.

----------


## dietrich

> Good one, Dexter Soy!  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857


This is pretty funny.

----------


## Rise

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #9
> 
> Who is Artemis? part one! When Artemis discovers that the Bow of Ra has been used to destroy an entire city, Red Hood and the Outlaws race to Qurac to discover the identity of this barbaric bowmanand who they find is too shocking to believe!
> 
> Soy is back again and it's seems we got a new artist for the covers.


Nice cover and I wonder who is this woman.

----------


## Rise

> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...07813139775489
> 
> 
> 
> Damn!


Ooooh I like it.  :Cool: 




> Good one, Dexter Soy!  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857


Deadhood lol.

----------


## The Whovian

> Good one, Dexter Soy!  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/823746170409209857


LOL! That is too funny!

----------


## Aioros22

Besides defending backstories coming back I think it would also be cool if some variants were sketches done this kind of humor. It`s fun, it shows the creative time enjoying the characters and shows dinamic in relationship gags outside what happens in the book proper. 

Kind of like the chapter openings in Manga volumes showing off panel world building.

----------


## Rise

Hey guys, did you hear about #BobMorleyForJasonTodd hashtag? It was trending on twitter and Johns have acknowledge it and like it.

So, what do you guys think?  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> Hey guys, did you hear about #BobMorleyForJasonTodd hashtag? It was trending on twitter and Johns have acknowledge it and like it.
> 
> So, what do you guys think?


I don't know that actor, but my feeling is that (at least as Red Hood) they should take and actor who is not completely dwarfed by Ben Affleck, and I'm not sure if that's the case with this guy.

----------


## Tigrex-22

I did a quick google search and he seems to be 5 foot 10, so he's closer to Nightwing in size than Red Hood.
He would look too small in comparison to Batfleck.

----------


## RedQueen

> Hey guys, did you hear about #BobMorleyForJasonTodd hashtag? It was trending on twitter and Johns have acknowledge it and like it.
> 
> So, what do you guys think?


The 100 is a CW show but Bob Morley is definitely one of the best actors on the show. He started off as the bad guy but the dude's acting and the way the audience responded to him made him basically the male lead. His range as an actor is astounding actually. I got into the show because I'm a sci fi fan and watching it it was clear he's a stand out. Very underrated and really deserves something soon because I think the 100 is getting canceled after its 4th season as it is rumored. 

Would totally recommend him. Personally I'd prefer him as Dick Grayson but he could pull of Jason too so I wouldn't mind him as either.

----------


## Aioros22

So what he`s 5f10? Any boots they would give him as Red Hood would inch him easily to 6. Looks small compared to Batffleck? Normal Affleck also looks small compared to Batffleck. Builk up, barring some genetics working against it, pretty much ayone looks bigger after building mass.

----------


## Aioros22

Just to note, I`m not against or for the particular actor, I just find (minimal at that) height issues to be silly.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Personally I don't think he has the look to be Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Uh, did anyone knew of this?



Is the variant for Nightwing #15

----------


## RedQueen

that looks like a cool team up.

----------


## G-Potion

> Just to note, I`m not against or for the particular actor, I just find (minimal at that) height issues to be silly.


Out of curiosity, who would you pick to play Jason?




> Uh, did anyone knew of this?
> 
> 
> 
> Is the variant for Nightwing #15


Huh. Guess it's just a cover, as #15 solicit doesn't look like it has place for any of these guest characters. It's such a weird team-up though, with Jason easily being the odd one out.

----------


## REAL

> Hey guys, did you hear about #BobMorleyForJasonTodd hashtag? It was trending on twitter and Johns have acknowledge it and like it.
> 
> So, what do you guys think?


I don't know who the heck is this guy, but I hope that Johns acknowledging the hashtag means that we are getting Jason in DCEU.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't know who the heck is this guy, but I hope that Johns acknowledging the hashtag means that we are getting Jason in DCEU.


Since it doesn't seem that he will be in the next Batman movie they are doing now, it imo anyway to early to pick an actor now, he might allready be to old for the part when the second movie is made.

And imo it would be anyway kind of wired if they cast someone for Jason who is older than the actors of Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Harley.

----------


## Aioros22

> Out of curiosity, who would you pick to play Jason?


At the top of my head I have Jensen. Out of that it would be a matter of searching a bit, but I don`t have one right now that clicks on me. I might tomorrow, who knows. More likely they`ll pick eventually someone who is still unknown. 

I don`t thnk this guy "looks" Jason either but that`s another matter.

----------


## Aioros22

> Uh, did anyone knew of this?
> 
> 
> 
> Is the variant for Nightwing #15


Yeah saw it on the Nigthwing Thread. 

Because it`s a variant I think it`s just to look cool and we`ve no idea if those are all showing up or not, but if it does I`ll be picking one issue out of the series. 

Does it surprise me to see jason and Wally together? Nah. Historically speaking they were Titans once and are all allies to Dick to this day, either visual nod is fine.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't know who the heck is this guy, but I hope that Johns acknowledging the hashtag means that we are getting Jason in DCEU.


That`s the one interesting bit outside the name game. They are on the lookout and i`m sure he will eventually pop up.

----------


## Rise

> I don't know who the heck is this guy, but I hope that Johns acknowledging the hashtag means that we are getting Jason in DCEU.


Johns acknowledging it is the reason why it catch my attention because it's give me hope that there's a chance he might show up in the movies.

----------


## Rise

This fan art made me wish to see more of Jason's days in the streets.

----------


## RedBird

I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung



Also, Hi Newbie Here  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> At the top of my head I have Jensen. Out of that it would be a matter of searching a bit, but I don`t have one right now that clicks on me. I might tomorrow, who knows. More likely they`ll pick eventually someone who is still unknown.


I would prefer if they would go for a young actor. the whole father son dynamik of Jason and Bruce imo doesn't work if they make Jason to old.

Jensen would have been imo roughly the right age back hen he played Alec in "Dark Angel", but that was 15 years ago.

----------


## Rise

> I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Hi Newbie Here


Jason looks good here. Jung is talented artist. 

And welcome to the board, RedBird.  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> i thought the jason tag could use this, from what i suspect is nightwing #15 considering the variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue minkyu jung
> 
> 
> 
> also, hi newbie here


wellcome *redbird*

----------


## Alycat

> I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Hi Newbie Here


Hi ! Really like that art and hope we get more Jason appearances outside of his own book.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like I spoke too soon about Jason being on the cover only. Jason and Dick's interaction has been sorely lacking so this is very welcome.

Hi there, Redbird!  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> I would prefer if they would go for a young actor. the whole father son dynamik of Jason and Bruce imo doesn't work if they make Jason to old.
> 
> Jensen would have been imo roughly the right age back hen he played Alec in "Dark Angel", but that was 15 years ago.


That would be ideal but given how Affleck is playing a man older than he is, I still wouldn`t have much issue with Jensen, especially when he happens to look younger than his actual age.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s really nice to see that the issue will assumely have interactions over fights. That`s where the writer shows whether he gets the characters or not.

----------


## Aahz

> That would be ideal but given how Affleck is playing a man older than he is, I still wouldn`t have much issue with Jensen, especially when he happens to look younger than his actual age.


He looks younger but not as young as Jason should be (imo early 20s), and when they want him to appear in later Batman movies, the age might become more visible.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Hi Newbie Here


I hope this from Nightwing cos would be good to see more Jason Dick interactions outside of crossovers.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Hi Newbie Here


Nice artwork. Hopefully Jason will have a meaningful set of interactions with the others here instead of the usual nonsense he oftentimes gets in crossovers. There's more to him then being the comic relief or the brawn so please show it this time around.

Also Welcome RedBird.

----------


## AJpyro

> This fan art made me wish to see more of Jason's days in the streets.





> I thought the Jason tag could use this, from what I suspect is Nightwing #15 considering the Variant and the fact that its the same artist for that issue Minkyu Jung
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Hi Newbie Here


I like both of these. The Jung art has that look.

Also at a CS I go to, today I asked the guy in charge of RHatO and he told me it was selling well. Brought a smile to my face.

----------


## Aahz

> Nice artwork. Hopefully Jason will have a meaningful set of interactions with the others here instead of the usual nonsense he oftentimes gets in crossovers. There's more to him then being the comic relief or the brawn so please show it this time around.


After Jason portrait in Grayson I don't have high expectations for this. 

When it comes to the "brawn"-thing, I don't like when they reduce him to this, but him being the "brawn" in comparison to Dick would be at last much better as this "he will never be as good as Dick"-thing. Being clearly written as the "brawn" of the Robins (so basically the equivalent to Cass) would give him a much stronger role in the family as being always written as the screw-up (like the pre-Wargames Steph).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> After Jason portrait in Grayson I don't have high expectations for this. 
> 
> When it comes to the "brawn"-thing, I don't like when they reduce him to this, but him being the "brawn" in comparison to Dick would be at last much better as this "he will never be as good as Dick"-thing. Being clearly written as the "brawn" of the Robins (so basically the equivalent to Cass) would give him a much stronger role in the family as being always written as the screw-up (like the pre-Wargames Steph).


I don't mind him being the brawn either but he's often played off as also being less intelligent than the others when he is cast in that role and that's certainly not the case. Writers need to stop writing him as if he's only got one skill to use when he has plenty of others and even training that the rest don't necessarily have. I don't really think that making him the brawn of the family is a particularly strong role myself.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't really think that making him the brawn of the family is a particularly strong role myself.


Better than being they guy how is not good at anything.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Better than being they guy how is not good at anything.


I agree with you that they need to get away from the idea that Jason was a bad Robin because in all seriousness he wasn't all that bad in the first place. That was something that was retconned into being by writers after his death in order to use him as a cautionary tale. The thing is I'd like to see more than him just being the brawn of the family. I don't believe being pigeonholed into that role will do him much good either without there being something more to it than that. They pigeonholed him into being the "bad Robin" while he was dead and then compounded that by making him a "lunatic killer" when he returned and look at where we are now. No, he needs to be a bit more than just "the brawn" here if we want to see him gain a strong position within the family. 

They need to start showing him being as intellectually astute as the others in certain types of situations and show him being as capable of thinking strategically as well. He was trained by Batman and he also has his League of Assassins training and the All Caste (assuming that his training there is still in play) so he should be on par with the others but they never show it.

----------


## Aahz

> They need to start showing him being as intellectually astute as the others in certain types of situations and show him being as capable of thinking strategically as well. He was trained by Batman and he also has his League of Assassins training and the All Caste (assuming that his training there is still in play) so he should be on par with the others but they never show it.


I agree, especially if they keep treating him as he is part of Dicks and Barbaras generation and keep the others as teenagers, they have to put him imo above Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass and Harper.

I'm ok with him being not the best Detective and not the best when it comes to sience, tech and computers (even if he is still quite capable) but the writers really need to realize that he is supposed to be street smart and a very fast learner, a highly trained assassin, a good thieve and quite agile and acrobatic and at least if we go by the official stats probably the the by far strongest of the Robins.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I agree, especially if they keep treating him as he is part of Dicks and Barbaras generation and keep the others as teenagers, they have to put him imo above Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass and Harper.


I agree. They do need to decide what "level" (to use gaming parlance) Jason is and then write him according and the stats of his skills should vary with some being higher then the others, some being nearly the same and others lower. If he's closer to Dick and Babs generation then to Tim's at the very least he should show a bit more in the way of experience then Tim for instance especially in those areas he excels at. 




> I'm ok with him being not the best Detective and not the best when it comes to sience, tech and computers (even if he is still quite capable) but the writers really need to realize that he is supposed to be street smart and a very fast learner, a highly trained assassin, a good thieve and quite agile and acrobatic and at least if we go by the official stats probably the the by far strongest of the Robins.


Jason's also highly adaptable and is able to think on the fly, which is useful in some of the siituations he finds himself in. Also writers need to realise that just because he isn't the detective Bruce is or the tech wiz Tim is that doesn't mean he's incapable in those areas either. You don't train with Batman and come away empty handed. He would have had a good grounding in all of the skills Batman has at his disposal so he has to be skilled at those as well.

----------


## CPSparkles

> After Jason portrait in Grayson I don't have high expectations for this. 
> 
> When it comes to the "brawn"-thing, I don't like when they reduce him to this, but him being the "brawn" in comparison to Dick would be at last much better as this "he will never be as good as Dick"-thing. Being clearly written as the "brawn" of the Robins (so basically the equivalent to Cass) would give him a much stronger role in the family as being always written as the screw-up (like the pre-Wargames Steph).


You know I don't think you need worry about that in this issue. Judging by other family cameo's so far Seeley seems to be focused on building Dick's relationships. I don't think they will be fighting more likely bonding /conversing.

----------


## Aioros22

Just read Batman#16 and so far I`m pleasantely enganged by how King has written the boys. The non fight scenes that were my main issue end up being the show stealers. Damin and Jason done good is gold and Dick embracing it makes it cooler. 

Let`s hope that the RH figure ends up making a cameo soon in Jason`s hideout, do it RATHO  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

Yep. I loved the boys banter.

----------


## Aahz

> Damin and Jason done good is gold and Dick embracing it makes it cooler.


I found the hairline thing wired. 
Imo Jason should give Damian more contra, for me he comes of very insecure.

----------


## CPSparkles

> I found the hairline thing wired. 
> Imo Jason should give Damian more contra, for me he comes of very insecure.


I loved their banter. Jason came across as a big bro gently ribbing and taking some ribbing from his brother. It was a good showing imo. The hairline stuff was a joke and his reaction to it was good. Loved him asking Dick if his hair looked fine?

Wish we could get more scene's like this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

King can't write Jason to save his life. He's just so generic under his pen, you could've swapped him for Tim and there wouldn't be any difference. The dynamics are also wrong and very simplistic. Honestly I can't understand how some people complained about Lobdell writing Jason's interactions with the Batfamily back on RHATO V1 about being all fluff for fanservice's sake and then praise King when he's doing exactly that. Really not having much hopes for Seeley doing Jason justice. Meh.

Duke was also awfully out of place but that is neither here or there.

Anyway, here is our first look at March's first variant for the title.

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...57338757926927

----------


## G-Potion

Agreed that King's Jason feels very generic but to be fair, his banter with Damian is still the highlight of this book. In fact, I'd consider it an improvement over the hostile way Damian treated Jason before.




> Anyway, here is our first look at March's first variant for the title.
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...57338757926927


Nice cover! Artemis's right arm bothers me a bit. But overall, nice!

----------


## Rise

This cover look so good and I'm really glad that we got March.  :Big Grin: 

And honestly DT, saying that Jason can easily be replaced with Tim is kind of insulting to Jason





> Just read Batman#16 and so far I`m pleasantely enganged by how King has written the boys. The non fight scenes that were my main issue end up being the show stealers. Damin and Jason done good is gold and Dick embracing it makes it cooler.
> 
> Let`s hope that the RH figure ends up making a cameo soon in Jason`s hideout, do it RATHO


Love the issue and Jason freaking out about his hair made me laugh. He is definitely the highlight for me in that issue.

And Duke was actually likable!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This cover look so good and I'm really glad that we got March. 
> 
> And honestly DT, saying that Jason can easily be replaced with Tim is kind of insulting to Jason


Exactly my point.

----------


## Rise

What's point? 

And honestly, are we going to have this conversation every single time Jason appear in a book other than his? Each writer has own style or take on Jason and there's nothing wrong with that. Lobdell's Jason is different from Tynion's Jason and from King's Jason and so on. And no matter how different the takes on him, by the the end of the day he's still Jason. 

You don't like King's Jason? That's your own right, but thats doesn't means it was offensive or bad.

----------


## Aioros22

> I found the hairline thing wired. 
> Imo Jason should give Damian more contra, for me he comes of very insecure.


Jason wonderfully ribs Damian back with sarcasm and he`s the insecure one?

Well, okay.

----------


## Aioros22

You couldn`t switch Tim with Jason in that banter. The whole hidden appreciation of Damian to the Red Hood and its asthetics, the helmet as Damian`s prized trophy, Jason being totally aware and amused at it, it`s not something you can have with Tim. 

It`s part of the sort of bond Jason shares with Damian.

----------


## Alycat

You couldnt have swapped Tim and Jason in that Batman issue, since Jason and Damian tolerate each other way more than Tim and Damian due. I really dont get the complaints of generic here.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I quite enjoyed the banter here and really everyone else was pretty much in a relaxed mode here anyway aside of maybe Duke. I also don't agree that you could have traded Jason for Tim here. 




> What's point? 
> 
> And honestly, are we going to have this conversation every single time Jason appear in a book other than his? Each writer has own style or take on Jason and there's nothing wrong with that. Lobdell's Jason is different from Tynion's Jason and from King's Jason and so on. And no matter how different the takes on him, by the the end of the day he's still Jason. 
> 
> You don't like King's Jason? That's your own right, but that’s doesn't means it was offensive or bad.


I agree with you about every writer having their own take on Jason and I see nothing wrong with that except in the case of Jason being pigeonholed into a certain role. After years of "pycho-killer Jason" I hate it when writers only write him a certain way.

@ Dark: It seems to me that the easiest thing to do would be to just forget about reading his appearance in other books whose writers you've already felt handled him badly. I hated the way Tynion has handled Jason in the past so these days if I were to hear that Jason was making an appearance in 'Tec I'd skip it because frankly I'd rather do that then suffer through his version of the character. There's really no need to suffer through something you feel is bad.

----------


## Aioros22

This may come as too on the nose and personal, but as someone who got brothers, appreciation of King`s style or not, this felt natural. What exactly should Jason be more contra in this context for? We already know from him he holds back somewhat to the "10 y old" but despite that he`s amused at Damian and rivs back. What is exactly insecure about it? 

Personally I like that he took the Red Hood figure because that`s totally a rib on Damian stealing his helmet previously. This was mentioned again as something that connects them when Damian died. 

Brothers rib each other over stupid stuff. sorry to let everyone know. No character is a sacred cow at the expense of a gag or comedy feel. Bruce is totally the part of someone who is absolutely way too serious and equally unaware of the real world, unless appearantly, he`s amnesic. He`s a bloody rick dude that has no idea on how you eat a burger and can be stiff as a door on random socializations.

----------


## Drako

You could never swap Jason for Tim in that scene at all, he would never banter with Damian like that. Tim is much more serious and straightforward with Damian than Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> What's point? 
> 
> And honestly, are we going to have this conversation every single time Jason appear in a book other than his? Each writer has own style or take on Jason and there's nothing wrong with that. Lobdell's Jason is different from Tynion's Jason and from King's Jason and so on. And no matter how different the takes on him, by the the end of the day he's still Jason.


In this case I concur. I am also no big fan to rub on a writer by using another as comparison because some people did the same back then to Loedbell. Apples and oranges. I still find Loedbell`s Jason the most complete ileration of the character so far but I enjoy some of these takes as well. 

Frankly, I think Loedbell`s work can stand on its own without this sort of thing. 

Anyway, this issue gave us the singlehandly biggest Loedbell rub in continuity and nobody mention it thus far! From the mouth of Dick himself! None of the boys enjoy Alfred`s pancakes/sandwiches.

----------


## Aioros22

> You could never swap Jason for Tim in that scene at all, he would never banter with Damian like that. Tim is much more serious and straightforward with Damian than Jason.


Totally agree. 

Also, unlike Tim, reardless of whatever respcect he may or not have, Damian surely likes Jason to a degree. He tries to hide it bloody well, but somehow he`s a fan of him. What makes the interactions is that whereas on the surface they both banter and bicker roughly (think of physical comedy) Jason is totally aware of it. 

And it amuses him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This may come as too on the nose and personal, but as someone who got brothers, appreciation of King`s style or not, this felt natural. What exactly should Jason be more contra in this context for? We already know from him he holds back somewhat to the "10 y old" but despite that he`s amused at Damian and rivs back. What is exactly insecure about it? 
> 
> Personally I like that he took the Red Hood figure because that`s totally a rib on Damian stealing his helmet previously. This was mentioned again as something that connects them when Damian died. 
> 
> Brothers rib each other over stupid stuff. sorry to let everyone know. No character is a sacred cow at the expense of a gag or comedy feel. Bruce is totally the part of someone who is absolutely way too serious and equally unaware of the real world, unless appearantly, he`s amnesic. He`s a bloody rick dude that has no idea on how you eat a burger and can be stiff as a door on random socializations.


Problem is, no writer has developed Jason and Damian's relationship. The closest we got to it was Lobdell during the DOTF aftermath that had Jason trying to genuinely connect with him rather than simply piss him off. Even back on Batman Incorporated Jason was never written as being interested on ruffling Damian's feathers just because.




> You could never swap Jason for Tim in that scene at all, he would never banter with Damian like that. Tim is much more serious and straightforward with Damian than Jason.


They had, in fact, their banter felt more organic since is the kind of conflict tends to arise between brothers. And hey, if Jason can develop a bonding with Damian off panel, so does Tim. Hell, Tim's entire hang ups with Damian stem from the way Damian beat him up the first time they met and if Tim can forgive Jason for doing the same, he can forgive Damian as well.






> What's point? 
> 
> And honestly, are we going to have this conversation every single time Jason appear in a book other than his? Each writer has own style or take on Jason and there's nothing wrong with that. Lobdell's Jason is different from Tynion's Jason and from King's Jason and so on. And no matter how different the takes on him, by the the end of the day he's still Jason. 
> 
> You don't like King's Jason? That's your own right, but that’s doesn't means it was offensive or bad.


The books are explicitly stated as being part of the same continuity so any writer that writes only as _their_ vision allows them, is downright a bad writer. Even Lobdell goes out of his way to acknowledge the apportations of other writers regardless it fits or not on his plot. So, consistent characterizations all over the board aren't a luxury but a feature.

----------


## shadowsgirl

The voice acting's pretty good.

----------


## Rise

> The books are explicitly stated as being part of the same continuity so any writer that writes only as _their_ vision allows them, is downright a bad writer. Even Lobdell goes out of his way to acknowledge the apportations of other writers regardless it fits or not on his plot. So, consistent characterizations all over the board aren't a luxury but a feature.


Last time I checked, Jason isn't suddenly being written as villain and at odds with the batfamily so how this not acknowledging what Lobdell is doing with Jason? Acknowledging Jason's book doesn't mean that he's going to be written the exact same way Lobdell write him. For example, Tomasi write Superman differently than Jurgen's Superman in AC and Hitch's JL. Same with Batman, Wonder Woman and literally every character because it's impossible to be consistent and each writer is going to highlight and foucs on different aspects of the characters. The same can be said about the relationships between the characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> Problem is, no writer has developed Jason and Damian's relationship. The closest we got to it was Lobdell during the DOTF aftermath that had Jason trying to genuinely connect with him rather than simply piss him off. Even back on Batman Incorporated Jason was never written as being interested on ruffling Damian's feathers just because.


And Tomasi the moment he had Jason remembering fondly the day the kid stole his helmet and _kept it_ as his throphy. Loedbell went further but I enjoy the fact that despite the way the kid is Jason porpusely enjoys his antics and doesn`t try to change him like Tim does/did. 

Jason connection with Damian tends to show more in the physical comedy than Tim with Damian. With those two it`s usually a territorial argument. But deep down I believe writers _believe_ that Jason gets Damian way more/better than Tim ever did. 

Even if you believe King failed to deliver as any writer before on developing this relationship in any concrete manner, you do it by having writers have a go at it, not by not doing it at all. Rome wasn`t built in one day and this isn`t a crossover event where the main crappy story overlades everything else, particularly character work and interaction. 




> They had, in fact, their banter felt more organic since is the kind of conflict tends to arise between brothers. And hey, if Jason can develop a bonding with Damian off panel, so does Tim. Hell, Tim's entire hang ups with Damian stem from the way Damian beat him up the first time they met and if Tim can forgive Jason for doing the same, he can forgive Damian as well.


Tim is stiffer and any (at least most that I recall have been) connection with Damian would start more from a place of being polite than actual amusement of his antics. It`s got little to do with forgiveness. 

This second line is again, more personal, but the banter at the joint food is organically "real" talk between brothers who are in the place they are. That Tomasi example is nice, but neither Tim or Damian are actually being themselves. I get that they are (again) being polite and play pretending for a family portrait and that does happen in real life too but I don`t see how it makes the Burger conversations any less real. 

Unless it really boils down to you thinking King is either terrible with Jason or just terrible overall. It`s certainly a perrogative to have but I don`t share it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They had, in fact, their banter felt more organic since is the kind of conflict tends to arise between brothers. And hey, if Jason can develop a bonding with Damian off panel, so does Tim. Hell, Tim's entire hang ups with Damian stem from the way Damian beat him up the first time they met and if Tim can forgive Jason for doing the same, he can forgive Damian as well.


Honestly I find the banter there to be far from organic myself. In fact it felt extremely stiff and stilted to me especially when compared to the banter between Jason and Damian in Batman, which I felt flowed more naturally.

----------


## Aioros22

And frankly, what is better anyhow?

Getting ruffled by a 10 year old and get down to his level? Look how easily Tim falls for the kid`s cry for territory.

----------


## G-Potion

> This may come as too on the nose and personal, but as someone who got brothers, appreciation of King`s style or not, this felt natural. What exactly should Jason be more contra in this context for? We already know from him he holds back somewhat to the "10 y old" but despite that he`s amused at Damian and rivs back. What is exactly insecure about it? 
> 
> Personally I like that he took the Red Hood figure because that`s totally a rib on Damian stealing his helmet previously. This was mentioned again as something that connects them when Damian died. 
> 
> Brothers rib each other over stupid stuff. sorry to let everyone know. No character is a sacred cow at the expense of a gag or comedy feel. Bruce is totally the part of someone who is absolutely way too serious and equally unaware of the real world, unless appearantly, he`s amnesic. He`s a bloody rick dude that has no idea on how you eat a burger and can be stiff as a door on random socializations.


Heh as someone who has siblings myself, I'm ashamed to admit that first time I read, it wasn't with the 'pretending to be silly' antics in mind, despite doing it myself as often as anyone. Went back to read it again, this time I much more appreciated Jason playing along to Damian's theatrics instead of using his usual cutting remarks. I imagine they would be a riot playing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVFjy-tCtOI

----------


## G-Potion

In celebration of the Robin bonding finally happened with Jason in it, I'd like to rec this fic, which I think is the first one to fully feature the new Outlaws gang with a heavy dose of Batbro antics. 13k words of awesomeness.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/9538124

----------


## Alycat

> In celebration of the Robin bonding finally happened with Jason in it, I'd like to rec this fic, which I think is the first one to fully feature the new Outlaws gang with a heavy dose of Batbro antics. 13k words of awesomeness.
> 
> http://archiveofourown.org/works/9538124


Gonna give this a read. Today's issue just made me crave more batbro antics! I think Aioros22 was spot on with their analysis of Jason and Damian's interactions compared to Tim and Damian.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> In celebration of the Robin bonding finally happened with Jason in it, I'd like to rec this fic, which I think is the first one to fully feature the new Outlaws gang with a heavy dose of Batbro antics. 13k words of awesomeness.
> 
> http://archiveofourown.org/works/9538124


I read that fic earlier, and I have to say, it was pretty amazing. Really captured the characters' voices.

----------


## Aahz

I'm wondering if Roy sold the rights to produce Red Hood toys to Bat-Burger, when they had their "Rent-a-Bat"-company.

Btw. doesn't Wayne Enterprise own the Batman brand? Is Bat-Burger maybe a part of WE?

----------


## Aioros22

Freeman is totally behind it and those are the sort of meetings Bruce doesn`t show up.

----------


## Aioros22

So, after reading Batman #16 and several how would Hood fans especifically pitch Jason`s interactions with the others? What do you feel it`s missing or could be better other than page count? 

And in the inreractions you`ve been "meh" what are the bits you wish creative teams would play more often? Speak your heart maties.

----------


## Aahz

> So, after reading Batman #16 and several how would Hood fans especifically pitch Jason`s interactions with the others? What do you feel it`s missing or could be better other than page count?


In feels in general strange for me that they act so family like, like I said if you go by existing comics, he doesn't know the others that well, and didn't met them that often.

At least in Lobdells version Jason is kind of a loner. He doesn't trust people, doesn't talk that much and is more of stoic/grumpy guy, even with Roy and Kory or Tim he didn't act that goofy and usually kept his distance, and he is closer to them than to Dick or Damian.

His voice feels for me just of, especially stuff like the jokerized fries or asking Dick if his hair is ok, I just don't think he would say something like that. The same with the question if they ignore Bruce orders, he would says something like that but not as question.

The thing is that imo if you put him together with Dick, he should act similar as Tiger did in Grayson. I'm not sure what is dynamik with Damian should be, put I don't think he would pick fights with him over a Happy meal Toy, and especially not when they have to speak about as serious as Bane attacking.

Maybe it is because I prefer him in books like, RHatO, Last Crusade and Arkham Knight Genesis, but I see him just as more of darker character.


I think in general that while the Batburger thing is fun it reads more like a fanfic (or a more cartoony series like Lil'Gotham or Tiny Titans) than like something that belongs in the main continuity.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## G-Potion

> So, after reading Batman #16 and several how would Hood fans especifically pitch Jason`s interactions with the others? What do you feel it`s missing or could be better other than page count? 
> 
> And in the inreractions you`ve been "meh" what are the bits you wish creative teams would play more often? Speak your heart maties.


Even though I quite like what we have in Batman#16, I do feel the same as Aahz in wanting to see a more guarded Jason when he's around the robins. Not all the time, but it should be that way for a while before Jason and others can be comfortable in each other's presence when it's not work related. I don't mind Jason's interaction with Damian in #16 though since I feel Jason actually likes Damian, and views him as a kid so there's no hard feelings. With Dick, on the other hand, I expect cold professionalism with underlying tension because of their past (unfriendly/antagonistic) interactions. In short, I guess I want to see more conflict first, or at least few first steps toward reconciliation, because as much as I like the batbros interactions now, part of me do feel it's unearned.

----------


## G-Potion

More 1st Outlaws cuteness, now with Kyle. Makes me want Lobdell to revisit the Challenger trio.

----------


## CPSparkles

> More 1st Outlaws cuteness, now with Kyle. Makes me want Lobdell to revisit the Challenger trio.


This is so cute. Also poor Dick.

Edit:
Just noticed the clown fish haha the details in this are fantastic.

----------


## Aahz

> More 1st Outlaws cuteness, now with Kyle. Makes me want Lobdell to revisit the Challenger trio.


I don't know I always find it wired when they put Jason so close together with characters of Dicks Generation. I like that he has know finally his own teammates.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't know I always find it wired when they put Jason so close together with characters of Dicks Generation. I like that he has know finally his own teammates.


Personally I can't see Roy without expecting Jason to show up somewhere. I never buy his friendship with Dick as being that deep or developed.

Anyway, looks like Batman will be on RHATO's 10 variant



https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...55559613378561


Unless March has been tapped for doing something else at DC.

----------


## Drako

> Personally I can't see Roy without expecting Jason to show up somewhere. I never buy his friendship with Dick as being that deep or developed.


You are talking about the guy who had more than 50 years of friendship with Roy? The guy who introduced him to his daughter?

I know you are a Jason Todd fan, but to say that Roy and Dick friendship isn't deep or developed is a bit of a stretch.

----------


## Aahz

> Personally I can't see Roy without expecting Jason to show up somewhere. I never buy his friendship with Dick as being that deep or developed.


There is Old Friends New Enemies and Winiks Outsiders.

But the thing is Roy, Kory and Donna are all close to Dick and part of his Titans generation, Kyle was part of the same Generation but not as close to Dick since he only joined the Titans after Dick had left. Artemis and Bizzaro are his first team mates without a connection to the New Teen Titans appart from Ryan Choi maybe but he was only in part of the challengers for a short time.

And Jason just doesn't belong to Dicks Generation, if you read the stories from the 80's it's kind of strange that he is now almost their age (OK having Damian on a Team with Raven, Beast Boy and Starfire is even stranger).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You are talking about the guy who had more than 50 years of friendship with Roy? The guy who introduced him to his daughter?
> 
> I know you are a Jason Todd fan, but to say that Roy and Dick friendship isn't deep or developed is a bit of a stretch.


See that is the thing, the Silver Age is hardly a paragon of great characterizations or stories and I never liked the whole thing with Roy's daughter. Quite frankly, I thought it was an unnecessary part of Roy's backstory (my utter despise for Cheshire didn't help either). So, I've found N52's Roy to be the best take on him for a considerable margin. Thus, why I found more engaging and better developed his friendship with Jason than with Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

There`s preference for either, I do enjoy Jason with Roy more as well. But saying there isn`t a deep connection (historically speaking) between Dick and Roy is factually wrong. From Dick having been revealed to have been there when Roy was kicking out the addition to being friends and teamates since they were teens and kind of pinning for Donna (before Jory showed up) to growing up and introducing his daugther, it`s all there. 

Roy`s first(?) mini had Dick as the guest, co-star and he filled in for Dick more than once in the ld New Teen Titans.

Not to mention, the Silver Age is when risky stories for characterization started to be published in mainstream.

----------


## Aioros22

> In feels in general strange for me that they act so family like, like I said if you go by existing comics, he doesn't know the others that well, and didn't met them that often.


At least in Lobdells version Jason is kind of a loner. He doesn't trust people, doesn't talk that much and is more of stoic/grumpy guy, even with Roy and Kory or Tim he didn't act that goofy and usually kept his distance, and he is closer to them than to Dick or Damian.

His voice feels for me just of, especially stuff like the jokerized fries or asking Dick if his hair is ok, I just don't think he would say something like that. The same with the question if they ignore Bruce orders, he would says something like that but not as question.[/QUOTE]

But Loedbell does have Jason admitting that Roy and Kory are what he tries not to admit. And Jason does what he does by the end of RHAA exactly because Roy is a dear friend to him, not the other way around, as he tries (again) to pretend. The other characters may be left ambiguous about it but we, the readers, have the luxury to know from Jason`s inner thoughts that despite being more stoic and a loner than others, he can and cares about the people he cares about. 

And Loedbell and co have *never* wrote him as so stoic that he`s:

a) not social

b) not able to be fun to be around

c) to use humor in interactions, wheter is sarcasm or a quip. 

That`s Bruce. That being said am I wrong is seeing that your main issue isn`t humor itself but the tone in which King used? I`ll touch more upon the humor bit in the next question. 




> In The thing is that imo if you put him together with Dick, he should act similar as Tiger did in Grayson. I'm not sure what is dynamik with Damian should be, put I don't think he would pick fights with him over a Happy meal Toy, and especially not when they have to speak about as serious as Bane attacking.
> 
> Maybe it is because I prefer him in books like, RHatO, Last Crusade and Arkham Knight Genesis, but I see him just as more of darker character.


I can see what you mean, but I think that is limiting Jason. I rather the character not be grim and dark 24/7. He doesn`t need to be and I think Loedbell and co and shown enough that he can let his guard down. Especially when it`s with people that matter to him, whatever personal grudges they might share. Basically, I don`t see what stops him for being that way depending the story structure and less dark depending the same when we`ve had more than one run where he has been both without ruining the character. 

I prefer Jason to act as a 3dimensional character with a range of emotions and I don`t see why exploring that takes away any mystic just because he does have quite the dark background. The Crow is one of the darkest characters ever to see print and there`s alot of humor to counterbalance the gritiness. You may say, "it`s all dark humor" and I`ll remind you that to both the detective who he set a bond with as well as the little girl he acted like a big brother as, he was definatly not pouting dark humor or grimnace 24/7, if ever.  

That said in terms of conlusion I fully agree when it`s *misplaced* (see my full point above). The Bane fight in Eternal is badly executed and timed whereas any sort of humor in the Burger scene is almost warranted to exist, especially when we know that Jason was already amused that the kid kept the helmet he stole from him as his own trophy. 




> I think in general that while the Batburger thing is fun it reads more like a fanfic (or a more cartoony series like Lil'Gotham or Tiny Titans) than like something that belongs in the main continuity.


Here we we don`t meet at all. Lil`Gotham is not fanfiction (noth in actuality or as derrogative connoction that comes with the term in this industry). It`s professionally good work. And in making this sort of comparions, you`re pretty much seemingly saying that characters can`t have relaxed time, or down time, or fun time. If readers want a smell of realism in the books, this is a big part of it. Like. Justice League International is not a lesser work just because it focus on character interactions and characters acting like human beings.

----------


## Drako

> See that is the thing, the Silver Age is hardly a paragon of great characterizations or stories and I never liked the whole thing with Roy's daughter. Quite frankly, I thought it was an unnecessary part of Roy's backstory (my utter despise for Cheshire didn't help either). So, I've found N52's Roy to be the best take on him for a considerable margin. Thus, why I found more engaging and better developed his friendship with Jason than with Dick.


I would never reply your comment if you said Jason and Roy friendship was your preference, that's your opinion and I respect it. But to say that Dick and Roy relationship wasn't developed is just not true.

In most of Roy's biggest moments, Dick was there, even when he became Arsenal.

----------


## Alycat

> See that is the thing, the Silver Age is hardly a paragon of great characterizations or stories and I never liked the whole thing with Roy's daughter. Quite frankly, I thought it was an unnecessary part of Roy's backstory (my utter despise for Cheshire didn't help either). So, I've found N52's Roy to be the best take on him for a considerable margin. Thus, why I found more engaging and better developed his friendship with Jason than with Dick.


So you didnt like Roy till the N52 rolled around and prefer him with Jason. Thats fine, but there is no way that his friendship wasnt deep with Dick with a lot of development. I hope and feel like they will they fix that nonsense. Also I personally thought Roy as a single dad was super cute.

----------


## Godlike13

I actually prefer Roy be more Jason's friend, but one could easily see Roy now without expecting Jason to show up somewhere. Its not like Titans has given any indication that Jason might show up, or references his time with Red Hood very often (or at all). Same could be said for Starfire.

----------


## Aahz

> I can see what you mean, but I think that is limiting Jason. I rather the character not be grim and dark 24/7. He doesn`t need to be and I think Loedbell and co and shown enough that he can let his guard down. Especially when it`s with people that matter to him, whatever personal grudges they might share. Basically, I don`t see what stops him for being that way depending the story structure and less dark depending the same when we`ve had more than one run where he has been both without ruining the character. 
> 
> I prefer Jason to act as a 3dimensional character with a range of emotions and I don`t see why exploring that takes away any mystic just because he does have quite the dark background. The Crow is one of the darkest characters ever to see print and there`s alot of humor to counterbalance the gritiness. You may say, "it`s all dark humor" and I`ll remind you that to both the detective who he set a bond with as well as the little girl he acted like a big brother as, he was definatly not pouting dark humor or grimnace 24/7, if ever.


He isn't without humor doesn't need to be superdark all the time. But he is imo darker than the other Robins, so when he is like here suddenly they goofier and more talkative than Dick, he is handled wrong imo.




> He doesn`t need to be and I think Loedbell and co and shown enough that he can let his guard down. Especially when it`s with people that matter to him, whatever personal grudges they might share.


 But he is letting his guard way more down here than around Roy and Kory, and he is imo way closer to them then to Dick and Damian.





> Here we we don`t meet at all. Lil`Gotham is not fanfiction (noth in actuality or as derrogative connoction that comes with the term in this industry). It`s professionally good work. And in making this sort of comparions, you`re pretty much seemingly saying that characters can`t have relaxed time, or down time, or fun time. If readers want a smell of realism in the books, this is a big part of it. Like. Justice League International is not a lesser work just because it focus on character interactions and characters acting like human beings.


I don't meant fanfiction negativly, it is that one quite typical type are kind of sitcom style family stories, which is a fun thing, and is also fun in out of continuity things like Lil'Gotham and Tiny Titans, but doesn't really belong in main continuity.
And in the main continuity also expect that the authors keep their stories in line with previous stories, and like I said there is no real foundational for Jason being already that close to the others.

----------


## adrikito

> 


Jason? This kid is like damian..  :Confused:

----------


## CPSparkles

> Jason? This kid is like damian..


No this is Jason. The artist did one of Damian but he was a toddler. The bat kids all look similar.

----------


## Aahz

Here is Damian


The Jason looks due to they spiky hair really a like current Damian, but I think it fits the him as the rebellious Robin (better than the classic Robin curls). And Damian would probably look more tidy (and band aids seem also quite typical for Jason when fan artists draw him as kid).

Btw. the Batarang reminds me on the DCAU-Tim origin, who used one as "Cuddly toy".

----------


## adrikito

> No this is Jason. The artist did one of Damian but he was a toddler. 
> 
> The bat kids all look similar.


Yeah, this is true..




> Here is Damian
> 
> 
> The Jason looks due to they spiky hair really a like current Damian, but I think it fits the him as the rebellious Robin (better than the classic Robin curls). And Damian would probably look more tidy (and band aids seem also quite typical for Jason when fan artists draw him as kid).
> 
> Btw. the Batarang reminds me on the DCAU-Tim origin, who used one as "Cuddly toy".


This image is better for Damian Wayne Appreciation.

----------


## Aahz

> This image is better for Damian Wayne Appreciation.


I actually took it from there.

----------


## adrikito

> Jason and Damian were so delightful in Batman#16 so here's a little strip of brothers being brothers. Enjoy


From Damian Wayne Appreciation

----------


## adrikito

> http://ceara-banana.tumblr.com/


Jason: Try to catch it now.

----------


## REAL

> So, after reading Batman #16 and several how would Hood fans especifically pitch Jason`s interactions with the others? What do you feel it`s missing or could be better other than page count? 
> 
> And in the inreractions you`ve been "meh" what are the bits you wish creative teams would play more often? Speak your heart maties.


I don't have a preference for how he should interact with the batfamily as long as they don't make him look bad to props up the others.

How Jason is written in his own book is more important to me and Lobdell has wonderfully delivered.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Anyway, looks like Batman will be on RHATO's 10 variant
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...55559613378561
> 
> 
> Unless March has been tapped for doing something else at DC.


Hmm, I guess is not for the Variant after all



https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...73071179497472

----------


## Orujo-man

> Hmm, I guess is not for the Variant after all
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...73071179497472


Amazing. Talking about March twitter, the pictures of the women and the way to draw her bodies reminds me alot for the old spanish and french comics I read when I was young.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I wouldn't be surprised if you actually read some of March's earliest jobs there. Guy is spanish and did some work for editorials there before getting gigs in America.

----------


## Aahz

http://jasontodd1fan.deviantart.com/gallery/

----------


## UnderTheRedHood

Nobody does it like Jason

----------


## Rise

> Hmm, I guess is not for the Variant after all
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...73071179497472


Like it. Thanks for sharing, DT.

----------


## REAL

He is really a good artist. 

But man, I miss Scalera variants.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep. Scalera's were precious because of the ideas as well as the look.

----------


## Rise

His variants were fun and I miss them too.

Btw Jan, how was Tec latest issue? Should I pick it up?

----------


## REAL

It wasn't a bad issue and I actually like it.

Jason actually made a cameo in the end.

----------


## Rise

Oh really? What was about?

----------


## REAL

Teseing for upcoming stories. 

It's seems that RHATO is going to be involved in the summer event.

----------


## Rise

I wonder if the mysterious figure who appeared in the previous issue is connected to the bigger DCU storyline or just a tease for upcoming RHATO storyline. 

Either way, I'm really excited for what coming next.  :Big Grin:

----------


## REAL

Oh yeah. Things seem interesting so far.

----------


## Aioros22

> Hmm, I guess is not for the Variant after all
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...73071179497472


That`s totally a New Adams face there.

----------


## Aioros22

Gah, I though it was the Batman one  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aahz



----------


## adrikito

> hmm, i guess is not for the variant after all
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/guillemmarch/sta...73071179497472


wow. Awesome.

----------


## CPSparkles

> 


Love his little "Rawr's"

----------


## G-Potion

> 


OMG hard work an' a nut for a father!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Orujo-man

> 


Ha! Knowing that Jason's favourite bar is the "Noonan's" it's a pity that these two can't interact ever. Rest in peace Tommy.

----------


## Aahz

Just saw this scan (Terras funeral in Judas Contract) I think it shows quite good how much younger Jason originally was than Dicks Generation.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah but that was during the whole Crisis transition period. These days Jason has been promoted an older brother, so the percetion is him being closer to Dick` age.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Honestly, age is a useless  metric to consider in comic books. Characters rarely have set ages and besides of a nebulous "X character is the senior of Y character" Ages will never be something writers give a lot of thought.

----------


## Orujo-man

I prefer Jason's age more closer to Dick's age, actually. The sensation of rivalry between the two (or at least between Jason and him) seems to me closer, apart of the constant comparison to Dick and the role of the both older brothers of the family. The brilliant brother and the "failed" brother. A little bit of two sides of the same coin.

----------


## Aioros22

In terms of reader perception, Jason _is_ closer to Dick`s generation of character/events than he _ever was_ of Tim`s and I`m perfectly fine with that. Categorically, the number of years he was MIA and having been there when Dick was making his transition, whereas Tim met an already mature Nigthwing who had gone throught aplenty overrides whatever set number was made at the time. 

Those kind of details aren`t gospel anyhow. Look at Bruce`s own age.

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly, age is a useless  metric to consider in comic books. Characters rarely have set ages and besides of a nebulous "X character is the senior of Y character" Ages will never be something writers give a lot of thought.


Yeah but you can for example clearly see that Jason was back than younger than raven and Beastboy, now it is the other way around.
And even without set ages, the change is quite noticeable.

----------


## Aahz

> In terms of reader perception, Jason _is_ closer to Dick`s generation of character/events than he _ever was_ of Tim`s and I`m perfectly fine with that.


It is still like if Tim and Damian would be suddenly the same age.

I just don't like it for two reasons:
- Jason needs to become Robin at a much older age than originally to make it work, and I like the stories with him as young Robin
- the new 52 Batbooks seem go much more for Tim and Jason as the middle brother than for Dick and Jason as the older brothers, in my opinion both can work but they should decide for one option

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah but you can for example clearly see that Jason was back than younger than raven and Beastboy, now it is the other way around.
> And even without set ages, the change is quite noticeable.


That`s more on office wanting some Titans to perpetually remain teenagers than others.

----------


## Aioros22

Agreed they should decisevaly decide but I think the gut feeling on most writers is having Jason one the elders, not a middle brother. 

At leats that`s where my camp is: Dick and Jason are the elders, Tim and Duke are the middle kids and Damian is the brat.

----------


## Aahz

> Agreed they should decisevaly decide but I think the gut feeling on most writers is having Jason one the elders, not a middle brother.


Imo most past crossovers were pretty much showing Tim and Jason as the middle brothers, especially Lobdell was pushing for this.

And most scene that were kind of going in the directions of Dick and Jason being the older brothers were usually without Tim being around.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I just don't like it for two reasons:
> - Jason needs to become Robin at a much older age than originally to make it work, and I like the stories with him as young Robin
> - the new 52 Batbooks seem go much more for Tim and Jason as the middle brother than for Dick and Jason as the older brothers, in my opinion both can work but they should decide for one option


-Actually, the only arc I read about Jason as Robin was Death in the Family, so I guess this is the reason of why I don't have the same perception as you.
-Look the bright side of the life, I think the actual Tim's "death" decide this for you.

----------


## Aahz

> -Look the bright side of the life, I think the actual Tim's "death" decide this for you.


I only for "I am Bane" he will be probably back for the next cross over.

And I don't have a problem with Jason and Tim as the middle brothers, but then they have to "deage" Jason (or more precisely move him somehow down a generation) which will be hard since they keep teaming him up with characters of Dicks generation since Countdown.

----------


## Alycat

> Imo most past crossovers were pretty much showing Tim and Jason as the middle brothers, especially Lobdell was pushing for this.
> 
> And most scene that were kind of going in the directions of Dick and Jason being the older brothers were usually without Tim being around.


Since Tim ain't gonna be around for a while that's probably where Jason's gonna stay with Duke as the middle and Damian as the baby. I like it though. No more Tim and Jason as though two middle guys.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I only for "I am Bane" he will be probably back for the next cross over.


Why do you think that? Share with us, please.

----------


## Aahz

> Why do you think that? Share with us, please.


I just don't think that they will bench Tim that much longer. If the next cross over comes really soon after I am Bane, he might also miss that, but I think he will stay in limbo much longer, especially know where all the books are double shipped.
When Dick "died" they had him also reconnect with the Batfamily after just 12 issues of Grayson, and appart from Batman Eternal he didn't miss any cross overs iirc. And Bruce death only lastet for just 10 issues of Batman.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I just don't think that they will bench Tim that much longer. If the next cross over comes really soon after I am Bane, he might also miss that, but I think he will stay in limbo much longer, especially know where all the books are double shipped.
> When Dick "died" they had him also reconnect with the Batfamily after just 12 issues of Grayson, and appart from Batman Eternal he didn't miss any cross overs iirc. And Bruce death only lastet for just 10 issues of Batman.


I hope you have right, I want to see Tim again. I dropped tec because he "died" and Tynion's way to managed all of that.

----------


## Aahz

> I hope you have right, I want to see Tim again. I dropped tec because he "died" and Tynion's way to managed all of that.


Tim also appeared in the preview for Superman #18 (will be published on the 1st of March). And that looks to me like the plot around his return will soon start.

----------


## Aahz

> I prefer Jason's age more closer to Dick's age, actually. The sensation of rivalry between the two (or at least between Jason and him) seems to me closer, apart of the constant comparison to Dick and the role of the both older brothers of the family. The brilliant brother and the "failed" brother. A little bit of two sides of the same coin.


The "The brilliant brother and the "failed" brother" is imo also problematic. 

Jason and Tim are really kind of opposites in terms of skills and background, which makes it imo easier to give both their moment to shine if you team them, without that it makes the other one look bad. 
With Jason and Dick it is imo more difficult, and pushing for "failed" brother is imo on the long run not really beneficial for Jason, I think that is something he has to overcome at somepoint. Something like the dynamik Dick and Tiger had in Grayson would imo work better for him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So with the Titans and the TT meeting for the first time in May, anyone else is curious to see how will Roy and Kori's first meeting since splitting up will go?

----------


## Orujo-man

> The "The brilliant brother and the "failed" brother" is imo also problematic. 
> 
> Jason and Tim are really kind of opposites in terms of skills and background, which makes it imo easier to give both their moment to shine if you team them, without that it makes the other one look bad. 
> With Jason and Dick it is imo more difficult, and pushing for "failed" brother is imo on the long run not really beneficial for Jason, I think that is something he has to overcome at somepoint. Something like the dynamik Dick and Tiger had in Grayson would imo work better for him.


Yeah I think the same. Jason and Tim are mostly the opposite, the "strange couple" if you want to call them that.

And with Dick as Jason depends of how Lobdell handles his evolution.

One is optimist, cheerful, kind...and blue.

The other is more cynical, melancholic, relentless...and red.

Yeah at some point that maybe works.

----------


## Orujo-man

> So with the Titans and the TT meeting for the first time in May, anyone else is curious to see how will Roy and Kori's first meeting since splitting up will go?


A lot. Dick, Roy and Kori have a big elephant in the room, and I'm curious if Kori have memories of Jason and Roy. Is like her time with the Outlaws was deleted.

----------


## SpentShrimp

In Pre-Flashpoint it even seemed like Jason and Tim were close in age. Wasn't Tim like 15 or so when he tried out as Robin, and Jason died at like 17?

----------


## Dominick1216

Hi Guys, I need your help on something. Was Jason Todd really in a relationship with Isabel, as in boyfriend and girlfriend? Or were they just deeply attracted to each other? Because weren't that just only on their first date before they went to space? Thanks!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A lot. Dick, Roy and Kori have a big elephant in the room, and I'm curious if Kori have memories of Jason and Roy. Is like her time with the Outlaws was deleted.


Starfire's series began with Kori asking Roy, Essence and Cheshire for advice and Roy kept a picture of the two of them in his wallet on RH/A so no, technically it hasn't been erased from continuity.




> Hi Guys, I need your help on something. Was Jason Todd really in a relationship with Isabel, as in boyfriend and girlfriend? Or were they just deeply attracted to each other? Because weren't that just only on their first date before they went to space? Thanks!


It was never downright stated but it seems reasonable to think they were a couple before Joker sent Isabel to ER.

----------


## Alycat

> So with the Titans and the TT meeting for the first time in May, anyone else is curious to see how will Roy and Kori's first meeting since splitting up will go?


Not really, since they've both clearly moved on to (poor) Donna and Dick respectively. I'm more interested in Starfire, Dick, and Damian stuff over anything with Roy. I wonder if the writers even care that much about it .

----------


## Aahz

> In Pre-Flashpoint it even seemed like Jason and Tim were close in age. Wasn't Tim like 15 or so when he tried out as Robin, and Jason died at like 17?


Tim was 13 when he started, Jasons age when he died (even post crisis staring age is not really clear) was never clearly given but he was most likely 13-14 (but at least 12 and at most 15).

----------


## Orujo-man

> Starfire's series began with Kori asking Roy, Essence and Cheshire for advice and Roy kept a picture of the two of them in his wallet on RH/A so no, technically it hasn't been erased from continuity.



Yeah I know about the picture in RH/A I was refer apart of Lobdell in other series. Honestly I never took seriously Starfire's sneak peak, don't have any sense to me. Roy and Essence ok, but why Starfire ask to Tim, Chesire or Caitlin Fairchild about anything? Too weird.

----------


## Savatewolf

So if Jason Todd were to show up in let's say Young Justice or Injustice, who would you guys want to voice him or if you don't have a specific person in mind what kind of voice would you want for him? Cause I know a lot of people want Jensen again, but I feel like we should move on from him in future.

----------


## Alycat

> So if Jason Todd were to show up in let's say Young Justice or Injustice, who would you guys want to voice him or if you don't have a specific person in mind what kind of voice would you want for him? Cause I know a lot of people want Jensen again, but I feel like we should move on from him in future.


I loved the job Troy Baker did in Arkham Knight. Not sure about anyone else.

----------


## Aahz

> So if Jason Todd were to show up in let's say Young Justice or Injustice, who would you guys want to voice him or if you don't have a specific person in mind what kind of voice would you want for him? Cause I know a lot of people want Jensen again, but I feel like we should move on from him in future.


For Young Justice it is possible that Jason would be still a teenager (depending if there is again a time jump), since according to this list he is around the same age as Jaime Reyes and Tye Longshadow and depending on how he comes back to live it is even possible that didn't age for some time (like Arsenal) and is now biological even younger, so they might go for a younger voice.

----------


## shadowsgirl

bat valentines  :Big Grin: 

bat_valentines_by_sidekick_clecle-d4patnd.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Bat-wheel  :Big Grin:  I love Jason  :Big Grin: 

bat_wheel_by_microbluefish-d3kfw5f1.jpg

bat_wheel_by_microbluefish-d3kfw5f2.jpg

----------


## Orujo-man

> So if Jason Todd were to show up in let's say Young Justice or Injustice, who would you guys want to voice him or if you don't have a specific person in mind what kind of voice would you want for him? Cause I know a lot of people want Jensen again, but I feel like we should move on from him in future.


I think Jensen is too old at this moment. He is around 35-40. New blood better.




> I loved the job Troy Baker did in Arkham Knight. Not sure about anyone else.


I must confess, I never played any Arkham game...

----------


## Aioros22

Well, if there is one to start, start by the best one. It`s the most meta challenging and psycologically dark of the main offerings of the series. 

Oh, and one more vote for Baker as well.

----------


## Aioros22

> So with the Titans and the TT meeting for the first time in May, anyone else is curious to see how will Roy and Kori's first meeting since splitting up will go?


Yup, that`s the one detail I`m on the lookout for just for fun. I wouldn`t mind Damian and Roy interacting briefly either since they`ve also met before.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I had no idea Suzie Su was a trans woman

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/02...ans-character/

----------


## Aioros22

That`s bloody brilliant, more sass ammo for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

I thought I read that somewhere before. Nice to see it confirmed. It's a very nice panel they picked for that article by the way; I've always liked how Lobdell writes Jason's voice in those first issues of the original RHATO. That viciousness.  :Cool:

----------


## Orujo-man

> I had no idea Suzie Su was a trans woman
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/02...ans-character/


Uhu I didn't knew, is a surprise.

About Jason in Nightwing, I want to believe that his attitude towards Dick came from his self analyze and how saw his past interactions with the Batfamily, proper of his acquired maturity and evolution in his series.

Said that, for other side maybe it's weird his sudden interest about Dick's love relationship, same as his acttitude with Damian in the past issue of Batman if I compare with his own series.


PD: I want say to all of you, yesterday was a very special day for me. And the reason it's pretty simple: Barça lose against PSG in a humiliating form and it's one of the best presents of Saint Valentine I was received in my life. :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Uhu I didn't knew, is a surprise.
> 
> About Jason in Nightwing, I want to believe that his attitude towards Dick came from his self analyze and how saw his past interactions with the Batfamily, proper of his acquired maturity and evolution in his series.
> 
> Said that, for other side maybe it's weird his sudden interest about Dick's love relationship, same as his acttitude with Damian in the past issue of Batman if I compare with his own series.
> 
> 
> PD: I want say to all of you, yesterday was a very special day for me. And the reason it's pretty simple: Barça lose against PSG in a humiliating form and it's one of the best presents of Saint Valentine I was received in my life.


It does feel weird indeed because I don't think any version of Jason would give the vibe that he'd instigate this kind of talk. On the bright side though, it still manages to show his deep understanding beneath the sarcasm. And I guess if Jason can prank Damian, he's good enough for small talk with Dick too. I'll just get my fix for introverted Jason from Lobdell then.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is getting really, really trite the way King and Seeley can't write Jason without having him mention how he died. At least when Lobdell does it is because is relevant not because. Then again, it doesn't even makes sense for Dick to ask romantic advice from Jason. Not only they aren't close, Jason isn't the kind of guy to indulge on that kind of talk.

----------


## Alycat

Well I liked it  :Smile:  . Since King and Seeley don't pretend that the rest of the family doesn't exsist coughSnydercough , I wonder if we just get increased cameos all around.

----------


## Aahz

> . And I guess if Jason can prank Damian, he's good enough for small talk with Dick too. I'll just get my fix for introverted Jason from Lobdell then.


I would like to get the "propper" Jason also in the Batman books. I don't get why Seeley can't just channel a little bit of Tiger or Raptor into his Jason.

Jason appearances in the Batman-books are always kind of weak, his appearances in other Franchises are usually much more fun.

----------


## dietrich

> Well I liked it  . Since King and Seeley don't pretend that the rest of the family doesn't exsist coughSnydercough , I wonder if we just get increased cameos all around.


I hope we do get increased cameos. I know Jason's hardcore fans seem to think that he wasn't himself but I thought his representation in both titles was positive if a little OC. I don't mind if this is the brief going forward and they are consistent with it. If Jason is now running with the bats it only makes sense that they get on and are civil to one another.

----------


## Rise

> I had no idea Suzie Su was a trans woman
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/02...ans-character/


This a news to me. I wasn't aware she was trans.

----------


## Rise

I found Red Hood and the Outlaws #8 Variant and I'm really, really excited for her arc.  :Big Grin: 

Btw, what kind of stories you guys would like to see after we finish with Artemis arc?

----------


## Aahz

> Btw, what kind of stories you guys would like to see after we finish with Artemis arc?


I general I would like Jason to get a more street level solo book (something in the direction of Lost days). 

But for RHaTO I would like Lobdell to finally do something with the All-Caste again.

A small cross over with books like (Teen) Titans, Trinity, Super Sons or maybe even Death Stroke or Suicide Squad could also be fun.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I found Red Hood and the Outlaws #8 Variant and I'm really, really excited for her arc. 
> 
> Btw, what kind of stories you guys would like to see after we finish with Artemis arc?


Nice cover.

To answer your question, actually I don't have any preference of the theme of the next arc after Artemis, but having in mind that the arc of Artemis presents to us her past and and inflexion point in her future interactions with Jason and Bizarro, I think the next one must focus in Jason. 

I know, logic maybe says the next must be Bizarro, but I find interesting  to see Bizarro as the "external observer" of the group given his inusual perception of the world. And I think the evolution that Bizarro will experiment in Artemis and Jason arcs, thanks to his interactions with them, allow Lobdell to explore new facets of him and create a new arc about him.

Only my thoughts about that.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Is getting really, really trite the way King and Seeley can't write Jason without having him mention how he died. At least when Lobdell does it is because is relevant not because. Then again, it doesn't even makes sense for Dick to ask romantic advice from Jason. Not only they aren't close, Jason isn't the kind of guy to indulge on that kind of talk.


You have a very narrow view of Jason as a character. I think it's great that they were talking about romance and chicks. It shows them trying to build back up a relationship.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You have a very narrow view of Jason as a character. I think it's great that they were talking about romance and chicks. It shows them trying to build back up a relationship.


It simply doesn't jives with the way the both of them have been developed over the last five years. Jason needed a loooong time to grow confortable enough around Roy to trust him like that and through the different flashbacks over the N52/DC YOU it was made clear he and Dick still have a lot of  issues to work out before they can get that level of familiarity.

But this is nothing new with King. The only way he knows to write Jason is as your run of  the mill middle child with none of the depth other writers have give him over the years.

----------


## ZeroBG82

> It simply doesn't jives with the way the both of them have been developed over the last five years. Jason needed a loooong time to grow confortable enough around Roy to trust him like that and through the different flashbacks over the N52/DC YOU it was made clear he and Dick still have a lot of  issues to work out before they can get that level of familiarity.
> 
> But this is nothing new with King. The only way he knows to write Jason is as your run of  the mill middle child with none of the depth other writers have give him over the years.


Hmm... I don't agree that this isn't consistent characterization.  New, yes, but not inconsistent.  The family dinner scene in Batman 16 convinces me that King (and now Seeley) is(are) writing this as Jason being on his best behavior with both Dick and Damien.  Because of Tim.  Remember, as far as these guys are concerned, their brother just died.  Dick and Tim have history from pre-Flashpoint, while Jason and Tim were bridging old grudges during the N52.  They both feel the loss.  I feel like the whole "brotherly camaraderie" thing is MEANT to ring a little false.  It IS a little forced.  It's everybody attempting to honor Tim by forgiving old sins and bringing the family back together again.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hmm... I don't agree that this isn't consistent characterization.  New, yes, but not inconsistent.  The family dinner scene in Batman 16 convinces me that King (and now Seeley) is(are) writing this as Jason being on his best behavior with both Dick and Damien.  Because of Tim.  Remember, as far as these guys are concerned, their brother just died.  Dick and Tim have history from pre-Flashpoint, while Jason and Tim were bridging old grudges during the N52.  They both feel the loss.  I feel like the whole "brotherly camaraderie" thing is MEANT to ring a little false.  It IS a little forced.  It's everybody attempting to honor Tim by forgiving old sins and bringing the family back together again.


That is the thing. Jason is not the kind of guy that would compromise his feelings for anyone else, Lobdell showed it pretty well by having Jason admit he couldn't bring himself to go to the funeral (and that is without counting the utter failing of the Batman editorial to give a proper aftermath to Tim's alleged death)

There is also the fact that Jason has actually shown his willingness to lend Damian a hand anytime he needs it, making King's current depiction of him doing things just to rile the kid up confusing at best, jarring at worst. 

Oh and the dinner scene is terrible once you take into account Jason and Bruce's recent bonding over some take out. King couldn't be arsed to do proper research over that.

----------


## Badou

If there are any issues to work out I think it would be on Jason's end. I don't think Dick is the type of person to hold grudges and a lot of resentment usually. He tends to move on from bad things a lot easier than most. After Alfred I always saw Dick as the most open member of the family. The only part I found a little weird might have been Jason being the one to pry into Dick's personal life. I would expect it to be the other way around, but obviously that wouldn't have worked for the story and I think they wanted to show them as having a closer friendship since Tim's "death" too.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Actually after Jason's recent encounters with Bruce, especially the most recent one, I could see him trying to at least attempt to "get along" with the family. Is it awkward and does it feel odd? Sure but Jason actually wanting to make the attempt has got to be awkward as hell for him and for the others. I think readers are supposed to come away from reading both of these encounters feeling as oddly about it as Jason likely feels and in that case both Seeley and King have done their jobs well. I even got a sense of underlying tension from reading both of Jason's appearences and felt like maybe everyone was stepping on eggshells around each other.

----------


## G-Potion

> Actually after Jason's recent encounters with Bruce, especially the most recent one, I could see him trying to at least attempt to "get along" with the family. Is it awkward and does it feel odd? Sure but Jason actually wanting to make the attempt has got to be awkward as hell for him and for the others. I think readers are supposed to come away from reading both of these encounters feeling as oddly about it as Jason likely feels and in that case both Seeley and King have done their jobs well. I even got a sense of underlying tension from reading both of Jason's appearences and felt like maybe everyone was stepping on eggshells around each other.


Interesting. I didn't think about it that way but rather more like King/Seeley used the end of Robin War and BR:Eternal as a foundation, meaning the relationship between Jason and Dick wasn't tense to begin with. Guess we'll never know if the jarringness was intended by the King/Seeley as I doubt they'll follow it up with further exploration of Jason's character. While I like both appearances well enough, I understand the wish that it could have gone differently.

----------


## Aioros22

Let`s not forget that even under Loedbell, Jason was the one who made the effort to: 

a) Talk with Dick (when Office wanted him and Starfire off each other`s lifes).

b) Talk with Damian on a personal level (by the way, here I will disagree with Dark. I have brothers. You can be on great terms with them and be there when they need and also play like kids the next instant. The back and forth is part of a brotherly DNA). It`s not OOC for Jason to try to reach Damian and then have they bicker over a diner in a relaxed enviorment or a satirical one. I`m aware that you and Aazh want prime consistancy on all levels but beware that on itself is not always consistant. People drop guards. People, even serious people, have silly or relaxed moments. What should matter the most is whether the moment meets with the enviorment. Basically where the execution gives meaning to the message the writer tries yo put across. 

c) Damian and Jason have had a relationship since Pre Flashpoint, if you actually notice. Damian went to totally hate him and see him as the outcast/failure to a grudging respect of Red Hood. And Jason went from mockery and disregarding of him to amusment and grudging respect. 

d) Dick`s relationship with him is the issue, because as noted Jason did spent more time with Roy and he still took his sweet time to open up. Then again he knew Dick before (appearantly with Dick having had a hand in helping train him as per RATHO#1 of the first volume) so, I dunno. But the writer`s need to start somewhere at this point.

The talk itself Seeley gave us is not the awkward thing. The awkward is Jason being the one seemingly talking/asking about his romantic life. It made sense when Loedbell had him asking about Starfire because Kory was also his friend, a teammate and a mentor. Here is more on the level so the execution may feel a tad off. 

I haven`t got the issue yet so I have no idea if the exchange happens or starts because of her criminal background, that would make sense. But still if it doesn`t detract character, it`s okay,

----------


## Orujo-man

> I haven`t got the issue yet so I have no idea if the exchange happens or starts because of her criminal background, that would make sense. But still if it doesn`t detract character, it`s okay,


No, Jason suddenly ask about how's it going with the new chick when both are waiting to assault some thugs. It's normal to ask about this kind of thing when you want to initiate a conversation, like asking for the kids or talking about the weather, but it looks weird in Jason.

----------


## Alycat

The problem is that Jason can't be stuck in that middle guy position with Tim anymore since Duke is there now and the chemistry ain't the same. Writers moving him up to Dicks level makes way more sense and so does fixing the previously dumb relationship between them, especially since Tim could apparently get over being attacked, then it makes no sense that Dick would still hold grudges. These are tiny baby steps to do that. After the events of Eternal, Robin War, Grayson, Tims death, etc, it's everyone putting out a hand. They were bored on a rooftop andJason asked Dick a question. Not really a big deal. 

The more awkward situation is honestly trying to see how much of the first RHatO carries over for Kori and Roy. Thankfully starting with her solo, Teen Titans, and now writers are starting to fix hat for Kori and Dick at least. Roy showing up in Green Arrow, more time in Titans, and the crossover should be interesting, but we know that him and Dick do talk to each other.

----------


## Aioros22

Orujo-man

Ah, so he _was_ on the level. Yes, awkward is nicely put but awkard on itself doesn`t decode negative connotions. He`s been known to trying to reach out so I`m okay with writters trying to make them able to casually interact without requiring the sort of tension of the business being something more historical, like asking about Kory.

Just brothers talking. That on itself isn`t tame or individually unique, It`s imitating life and that also will be needed here and there.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Orujo-man
> 
> Ah, so he _was_ on the level. Yes, awkward is nicely put but awkard on itself doesn`t decode negative connotions. He`s been known to trying to reach out so I`m okay with writters trying to make them able to casually interact without requiring the sort of tension of the business being something more historical, like asking about Kory.
> 
> Just brothers talking. That on itself isn`t tame or individually unique, It`s imitating life and that also will be needed here and there.


I actually liked how brotherly the talk between Dick and Jason felt. It felt really natural to me. Just two guys hanging out and talking about one guy's girlfriend.

----------


## Aahz

> Then again he knew Dick before (appearantly with Dick having had a hand in helping train him as per RATHO#1 of the first volume) so, I dunno. But the writer`s need to start somewhere at this point.


Problem is that even their pre Death in the family relation is not really explored, in Jasons original run interact after Jasons Origin was changed only in one Issue (Batman #416), and in later comics iirc only in Nightwing Secret Files and Origin (but that Jason is only a hallucination) and Nightwing Year One.
The other flashbacks are imo to short to really something about their relation.

Even if I'm not a fan of that issue, I think Dick and Jason should have a similar talk like Jason and Tim in RH/A #7.

----------


## Aioros22

You can`t go back and change what is there*. They interacted with one another despite the relationship not having been explored deeply. So with that in mind, I think is nice that writers today worry about it and try to have them connect in the present. Friendly, civil, here and there. Sometimes when you fight people you get to know them all the same. 

I love that scene at the rooftop and from what I`m reading the Seeley scene looks like a stepping stone. Hopefully, they get there. 

* But ideally you should have stories about Jason`s missions as Robin to make up for that, that I see eye to eye with you.

----------


## Aahz

> * But ideally you should have stories about Jason`s missions as Robin to make up for that, that I see eye to eye with you.


That would be the best option. Like I said I'm not a fan of how it was done in RH/A #7, but something like that, that clarifies their history and realation would still be far better than how it is handled now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That would be the best option. Like I said I'm not a fan of how it was done in RH/A #7, but something like that, that clarifies their history and realation would still be far better than how it is handled now.


I really think that a Robin's book would be useful as a vehicle for exploring Jason's time as Robin as well as the rest of them. Let the writers who have charge of each of the Robins handle individual stories so that there is some coherency. Seeley can handle Dick Grayson, Lobdell Jason, Tynion Tim and Tomasi Damian. It would help to build up history for each of them.

----------


## Aioros22

Diito. One of the best tools Loedbell has given us ever since the beginning of RATHO are the flashbacks and they`ve only gotten better. I`ve said it before, revolving arcs on a "Gotham Knights" or Legends of Gotham style of book or backups in his own title would be grand. Look at the cool backup you`ve had with Jason and Roy in the RHAA finale and in TAS drawing style at that!

If you do that, you don`t need to have writers have to make for it in present interactions. Sadly, only Loedbell seems to be on that set of mind for whatever reason (and here I`m including other characters in general). 

Biggest dissapointment I`ve had with the Eternals book, among other details, was the missed opportunity of making Deacon Blackfire part of Jason`s background. Easily rewritten, though (do it Loedbell)

----------


## Alycat

Heck Jason isn't even the only one that could use that. Dick got some flashbacks that were the best part of Batmn and Robin Eternal, but I can't think of any Tim ones.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Biggest dissapointment I`ve had with the Eternals book, among other details, was the missed opportunity of making Deacon Blackfire part of Jason`s background. Easily rewritten, though (do it Loedbell)


Yeah, I was pretty disappointed by that too. I'm hoping Lobdell does something with that one too. 




> Heck Jason isn't even the only one that could use that. Dick got some flashbacks that were the best part of Batmn and Robin Eternal, but I can't think of any Tim ones.


I think all the Robins could benefit from some flashbacks just to flesh out some of their history. I've been really liking the flashbacks in RHATO and wish other books were doing some as well.

----------


## Aahz

> Heck Jason isn't even the only one that could use that. Dick got some flashbacks that were the best part of Batmn and Robin Eternal, but I can't think of any Tim ones.


Dick had even Full length stories as Robin, but Tims time before the new 52 needs also to be explored.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Dick had even Full length stories as Robin, but Tims time before the new 52 needs also to be explored.


Yeah, Tim's time as Robin (or what have you) really needs to be explored at some point.

----------


## Aahz

Comicsstorian posted a few new videos with Jason (the first is an older one but I put it here to link the complete story).

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Alycat

Man that reminds me of how much I wish Rocksteady out more Red Hood Dlc for arkham Knight

----------


## Aahz

> Man that reminds me of how much I wish Rocksteady out more Red Hood Dlc for arkham Knight


I would like to get an Arkhamverse Red Hood Comic, since that Universe he could really go more "Punisher" and really have him kill Batmanvillains, which he can't do in the main continuity.

----------


## Alycat

That would've been good too. I loved Arkham Knight Genesis and I wish the game world got more comics out it. I've settled for some pretty good fanfics to compensate, but still.

----------


## Aioros22

Man, I wish they had actually done a full fledged story of him taking over the Underworld as part as Gotham`s new age. Someone takes over Batman (let it be your reading on who it is), Tim and Barbara marry. Bane becomes the kingpin of the city as he feels it`s is birthright to rule and Jason takes over the underworld in the shadows with Black Mask being his stepping stone. 

And then you have all these players clashing one day for the throne.

----------


## Tigrex-22

> Man, I wish they had actually done a full fledged story of him taking over the Underworld as part as Gotham`s new age. Someone takes over Batman (let it be your reading on who it is), Tim and Barbara marry. Bane becomes the kingpin of the city as he feels it`s is birthright to rule and Jason takes over the underworld in the shadows with Black Mask being his stepping stone. 
> 
> And then you have all these players clashing one day for the throne.


Jason already killed Bane in the tie-in comic (Arkham Knight #38), which is set before the actual game.
But otherwise i would have liked to see how the Gotham in Arkhamverse would have changed without Bruce as Batman.
It certainly had a lot of untapped potential for a great story.

----------


## Aioros22

I didn`t catch a few issues at the time. Hoping they`re all collected in TPB volumes so I can get it. 

How did he kill Bane?

----------


## Alycat

Pretty sure the games over ride the comics canon, and Arkham Knight had Bane go back home, not get killed.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, I don`t recall Bane`s part being a fashback in the game but still since my AK:Genesis collection is missing numbers, I`d like to know more about it.

----------


## Tigrex-22

It's not in the AK:Genesis comic but in the Batman Arkham Knight comic, which is a prelude to the game.
But comic and game contradict each other, according to the game Bane is back in Santa Prisca.
However in the comic Jason fights Bane, who is under the influence of fear toxin.
He is burned badly by an explosion, which Jason causes and then shot in the head multiple times from a short distance.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah, you`re talking of Batman: Arkham Knight which came before Genesis. I`m mixing the two a tad since I don`t have them here with me. 

Regardless, that`s an extremely effective way to take down someone like Bane. Stone cold effective.

----------


## Aahz

> Regardless, that`s an extremely effective way to take down someone like Bane. Stone cold effective.


Thats something I would like to Jason from time to time in the main continuity.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That won't happen simply for the fact comics are a business. The most you'll get is resolutions like Black Mask's that can be easily fixed when a creator wants to use the character again.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, you won`t see it. The big names are all protected. Then again, you don`t really need the kill to make it work, just Jason being extremmely effective in terms of dirty tactics like that when push comes to shove. No one among the Batties would be better in that game. 

Now, no names like slave trade rings? Fair game, they should show some of these more often between the usual trade of business.

----------


## Alycat

I actually wonder, does Jason's promise to Batman only apply to that mission or is it a mostly perm thing?

----------


## JasonTodd428

I imagine it only applied to that particular mission and maybe whenever he works with the Bats. I don't really see him following that rule outside of Gotham on his own missions. In fact he pretty much said as much after the mission was over.

----------


## Aahz

> That won't happen simply for the fact comics are a business. The most you'll get is resolutions like Black Mask's that can be easily fixed when a creator wants to use the character again.


But he could either do it with newly created villains, or leave the guys a live in the end. But I really would like to see this kind of efficiency and brutality more often.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, you sometimes do. Iron Rule type of.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, you sometimes do. Iron Rule type of.


But that didn't look nearly as spectacular as the Bane fight.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But that didn't look nearly as spectacular as the Bane fight.


I disagree



Oh and Tom King can go to hell

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833702769487917057

Especially for this

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833738440739061763

----------


## Alycat

> I disagree
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and Tom King can go to hell
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833702769487917057
> 
> Especially for this
> ...


Oh calm down. He says things like this to rile people up who take this stuff so seriously.

----------


## Aahz

@Dark_Tzitzimine

In this image you don't even see what Jason is doing, him going toe to to with Bane, ripping out his throat  and blowing up the truck looks imo cooler.

----------


## Aahz

> Oh calm down. He says things like this to rile people up who take this stuff so seriously.


Problem is that King apparently doesn't take Jason seriously, and if that the case chances are small that we finally get a decent portrait of Jason over in the Batbooks, with him as main writer.

----------


## Alycat

> Problem is that King apparently doesn't take Jason seriously, and if that the case chances are small that we finally get a decent portrait of Jason over in the Batbooks, with him as main writer.


I disagree. I'm fine with the way King writes Jason and think he's decent in the main batbooks. he hasn't been treated any worse than Dick or Damian. Hell, i'm just glad he has a chance of being in the main books with Snyder off of them. 

Also as neat as the Iron Rule stuff is, there just isn't enough of it going around.

----------


## Aahz

> I disagree. I'm fine with the way King writes Jason and think he's decent in the main batbooks. he hasn't been treated any worse than Dick or Damian.


Since we only had the Burger Scene sofar there is not much to judge, but if I look at Robin War (plot iirc by King) Jason definitely got the same treatment as Dick and Damian.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Now we're talking

https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...78956339785728

----------


## The Whovian

I wondered if you guys we're talking about this list. What a joke. King has no idea what Jason is capable of.

----------


## Aioros22

He`s riling fans up and it`s working. Who cares what King personally (really) thinks? He needs to juggle things with other aspects whatever he wants it or not, Just look at the reactions of the #16 finale and #17 only for him to finally come out and say it was Bruce who put them to sleep.

----------


## Aioros22

> But that didn't look nearly as spectacular as the Bane fight.


Okay you`re talking about choreapgraphy. I though you were more about whether it happens or not. 

Incidentally, do you happen to have scans of that takedown?

----------


## thefiresky

> He`s riling fans up and it`s working. Who cares what King personally (really) thinks? He needs to juggle things with other aspects whatever he wants it or not, Just look at the reactions of the #16 finale and #17 only for him to finally come out and say it was Bruce who put them to sleep.


I agree. His twitter stunt probably just caused a spike in DC profit for the month.

----------


## Aioros22

Regardless is nice to see creators sticking their guns for their favorites/current characters. 

The Hoodlers appreaciate it Lodbell ma boy.

----------


## Alycat

Yep. Its hilarious seeing them go back and forth over twitter on this. Friendly ribbing is always nice.

----------


## Aioros22

Waid and Selley measuring in!

Glad my stock of popcorns are filled for the week. This won`t stop so soon.

----------


## thefiresky

God I wish we could just see the DC WRITERS fight in hand to hand combat. I bet King would win. Dude was CIA.

----------


## Aioros22

In a creative twist he would be the Jason of the bunch. Puh-pow!

----------


## G-Potion

It would be nice to take it as pure entertainment value. But when one takes in Damian taking down Jason in Robin War, you realize that the list is partly serious. Not inspiring a lot of hope for a fair representation of Jason in his book.

----------


## G-Potion

> Regardless is nice to see creators sticking their guns for their favorites/current characters. 
> 
> The Hoodlers appreaciate it Lodbell ma boy.


Here let me go page Lobdell. Maybe he will speed up the reintroduction of All Caste in light of this recent meltdown.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

It`s a comic book and he`s Robin, it`s not impossible for him to do so, depending circumstances. He just won`t take most out of 10 (if he does) for pretty obvious reasons and everyone knows it whether they like it or not. Same with him against a good deal of the others. 

I want this to spice up. Where`s Didio when you need him?

----------


## Aioros22

@G-Potion

Something positive may come out of this all along  :Cool:

----------


## Orujo-man

I strongly recommend that King take his list and place it inside the part of his body where the sunlight doesn't reach.

----------


## G-Potion

> Okay you`re talking about choreapgraphy. I though you were more about whether it happens or not. 
> 
> Incidentally, do you happen to have scans of that takedown?


The Bane fight? That's like the whole issue of AK38.

AK381.jpg


AK382.jpg


AK383.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

AK384.jpg

AK385.jpg

AK386.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

AK387.jpg

AK388.jpg

AK389.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

AK3810.jpg

AK3811.jpg

AK3812.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

AK3813.jpg

AK3814.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It would be nice to take it as pure entertainment value. But when one takes in Damian taking down Jason in Robin War, you realize that the list is partly serious. Not inspiring a lot of hope for a fair representation of Jason in his book.


And the way he so openly dismissive of any feat Jason has performed over the years makes me hard to take the whole thing as merely "friendly ribbing" on King's part. I mean, friendly ribbing was Lobdell's answer to the poll, not whatever non sense King is doing.

----------


## Aahz

I see two thing confirmed:

1. They need to do something for Jasons reputation and highlight his skills more

2. The Batman writers have a really crappy attitude towards him

----------


## Aahz

This is also a type of fight I would like to see more often, especially him using random objects like chair in this case is great, and it is a much better way to introduce him in a story than him drinking in a bar.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I see two thing confirmed:
> 
> 1. They need to do something for Jasons reputation and highlight his skills more
> 
> 2. The Batman writers have a really crappy attitude towards him


At this point, I almost prefer that other writers don't use Jason at all.

----------


## RedBird

> It would be nice to take it as pure entertainment value. But when one takes in Damian taking down Jason in Robin War, you realize that the list is partly serious. Not inspiring a lot of hope for a fair representation of Jason in his book.


This is EXACTLY what I have been thinking.

I mean yeah, its clearly just meant to be a ribbing to get fans riled up and angry, cause lets face it, that's not hard to do. And perhaps from a different writer I could see the fun in the joke, but honestly reading Kings (AND Seeleys) previous attempts at writing each of these characters makes the list far from feeling like a simple jest. 

If anything it feels pretty accurate to how they have presented the bat family thus far.

(Just noticed poor Babs doesnt even make the list!)

----------


## RedQueen

Seeing his old get up makes me wish he wore it. Idk but it pops more over his more current costume.





> (Just noticed poor Babs doesnt even make the list!)


lol. Though he did put her second strategist after batman.

----------


## Alycat

Once again, Seeley and King both actually really like the Robins. Its bruce who they actually seem pretty meh on. I dont blame them  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> Seeing his old get up makes me wish he wore it. Idk but it pops more over his more current costume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol. Though he did put her second strategist after batman.


The current getup is perfect. Only thing you could do without to make it look like his older design is removing any logo on his chest.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G-Potion

Didn`t know it was most of the issue, I was expecting something more brief. 

Awesome scans mate, likewise the ones Aazh posted  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> I see two thing confirmed:
> 
> 1. They need to do something for Jasons reputation and highlight his skills more
> 
> 2. The Batman writers have a really crappy attitude towards him


See, here`s why I`m more chill about it even if I notice some of that to be true. What matters are the end products. Sure you have Jason and Tim being taken down by Damian but you have the opposite happen way more often and even in R:War you still get to be aware that Damian is once again taking advantage of neither of them going for the kill or any serious injury on their part. The whole debacle with whether Bane took them down or not included. Some of it is clearly fan ribbing, placing Kate as high when when the only thing she has done that he hasn`t is taking down the real Bane and that`s something King will never use in his current depiction of the characters because he`s selling Bane above everyone else. Like he mentions: he grew up reading Kinghfall. Nuff`said. This is his version of it. 

At most the infuriating bit is how they sometimes talk of Jason. But like I said, he`s spent more years gone than he`s been back in action and most of these new crop of writers were young when Tim was around now. So, you gotta take steps. Luckily you have writers, both new and young like Miller, Loedbell, Greg Pak, Tynion, Winnick, Morrison and so who think a good deal of him as a character and fighting prowess.

I still bet everyone will end up looking better than everyone will think. He`s smart to know that his Vision is not his Batman.

----------


## Aioros22

EDIT pls: 

"(...)and so who think a good deal of him as a fighting prowess."

Since strictly speaking is what this argument actually boils down to.

----------


## Aahz

> What matters are the end products. Sure you have Jason and Tim being taken down by Damian but you have the opposite happen way more often and even in R:War you still get to be aware that Damian is once again taking advantage of neither of them going for the kill or any serious injury on their part.


I get from R:War more the impression that they are seeing Jason and Tim as second rate robins who are not on the level of Dick and Damian. 
Especially that Damian is calling them "easy to kill Robins" or something like that, and that there is no real counter to it in the series is something I really don't like.

Jason has already a tarnished reputation, and stuff like that is not helping (more the opposite). It is OK if not every character has the centre stage in every event, but sofar Jason looked in the end quite bad in almost every event, and a good part of the time the writers were just making fun at his expense or use him to prop up other characters.

----------


## Orujo-man

> At most the infuriating bit is how they sometimes talk of Jason.


This, and how they represented him in the Eternals. I don't care about "ranking levels", normally I don't mind that crap until it's something exaggerated. The problem I have with the other writers is because I have the percepction they use Jason as a joke or for their convenience even if that make detriment to the character. In Eternals and Batman as a comic relief, in Nightwing to make the "brothers talk about girls", in Robin War they use Jason and Tim as "second category" Robin. This shouldn't be a problem if apart of that they make Jason more relevant to the plot or if they show other characteristics of him.

Look for example in Batman-Superman, when he talks with Clark, trying to convince him to nuke Vandal Savage with a nuclear warhead and the later discussion with Dick and Babs about that. All the conversation when Superman had lost much of his powers add something to the story, how clash their views in moments to extreme necesity and made a good characterization of Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> I get from R:War more the impression that they are seeing Jason and Tim as second rate robins who are not on the level of Dick and Damian. 
> Especially that Damian is calling them "easy to kill Robins" or something like that, and that there is no real counter to it in the series is something I really don't like.
> 
> Jason has already a tarnished reputation, and stuff like that is not helping (more the opposite). It is OK if not every character has the centre stage in every event, but sofar Jason looked in the end quite bad in almost every event, and a good part of the time the writers were just making fun at his expense or use him to prop up other characters.


I get you but I don`t think is _that_ appearant, not without resistance. If I recall both Jason and Tim do chim back and in Eternal you have both Jason taking Cass down (whereas Dick was beaten badly) and Damian being told he was at the bottom pole of fighting ability by none other than Bruce (before the last big fight or something when they reunited at the Cave), for examples. 

Personally I enjoy Jason being hard to get affected by Damian`s rants on a deep level. He`s usually mostly bemused about it than hurt. It shows who the bigger man is, even compared to Tim who usually bites the bait at heart.

----------


## G-Potion

> I get you but I don`t think is _that_ appearant, not without resistance. If I recall both Jason and Tim do chim back and in Eternal you have both Jason taking Cass down (whereas Dick was beaten badly) and Damian being told he was at the bottom pole of fighting ability by none other than Bruce (before the last big fight or something when they reunited at the Cave), for examples. 
> 
> Personally I enjoy Jason being hard to get affected by Damian`s rants on a deep level. He`s usually mostly bemused about it than hurt. It shows who the bigger man is, even compared to Tim who usually bites the bait at heart.


While I dislike both RW and BR:Eternal, I think Jason was - thanks to Tynion and Seeley - better represented in the latter; he had the fight with Cass, offered some very good advice to Dick who was being hypocritical at the time, his mission with Tim which led to some fantastic character moment and also was regarded as the "great battler" by Damian. On the other hand, Tom King's RW felt like Jason and Tim despite were sidelined as the spare robins, with the awesome Lee Bermejo's issue being the salvation. Granted, they ended up being more likable characters than Dick and Damian, who behaved like shit because of their "main" status.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, it`s nor perfect but I think with a few writers is a give and take situation.

----------


## Aahz

> If I recall both Jason and Tim do chim back and in Eternal you have both Jason taking Cass down (whereas Dick was beaten badly)


Thats one issue out #26, and if you summ everything up he doesn't look that great in the end.

----------


## Aioros22

Absolutely, the end product is not that good, I`m just countering your examples with others within the same titles.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh boy

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #10
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by NICOLA SCOTT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“Who is Artemis?” part two! After getting shot out of the sky by the Bow of Ra, the Dark Trinity finds itself stranded and separated in the war-torn country of Qurac. While Artemis squares off against her long-forgotten foe responsible for the Bow of Ra’s disappearance, Bizarro comes across a group of innocent refugees looking for a savior. Meanwhile, Red Hood faces a crisis of conscience when he’s forced to relive the trauma of his own death and comes face to face with his greatest enemy—himself!
On sale MAY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+

----------


## Alycat

Excellent cover but I'm struggling to understand that last line.

----------


## The Whovian

> Excellent cover but I'm struggling to understand that last line.


I take it to mean that the cover is representative of Jason holding himself when he was killed by the Joker and how he comes to terms with his anger over the whole thing.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Oh boy
> 
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #10
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL  Art by DEXTER SOY  Cover by NICOLA SCOTT  Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> Who is Artemis? part two! After getting shot out of the sky by the Bow of Ra, the Dark Trinity finds itself stranded and separated in the war-torn country of Qurac. While Artemis squares off against her long-forgotten foe responsible for the Bow of Ras disappearance, Bizarro comes across a group of innocent refugees looking for a savior. Meanwhile, Red Hood faces a crisis of conscience when hes forced to relive the trauma of his own death and comes face to face with his greatest enemyhimself!
> On sale MAY 10  32 pg, FC, $3.99 US  RATED T+


Nice cover. I can't wait to see how Lobdell manages this arc and Jason's struggle with his past.

----------


## Alycat

> I take it to mean that the cover is representative of Jason holding himself when he was killed by the Joker and how he comes to terms with his anger over the whole thing.


Well that certainly makes more sense over clones or time travel or hallucinations, which is where my mind jumped.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I take it to mean that the cover is representative of Jason holding himself when he was killed by the Joker and how he comes to terms with his anger over the whole thing.


I think it's more complicated than that. Maybe after this we can see Jason's catharsis as the result of his evolution in these years under Lobdell. Or not, who knows.




> Well that certainly makes more sense over clones or time travel or hallucinations, which is where my mind jumped.


Often our greatest enemy is ourselves.

----------


## Aioros22

Fitting, Jason died in a similar enviorment. 

Fantastic cover!

----------


## pansy

> Fitting, Jason died in a similar enviorment. 
> 
> Fantastic cover!


the feet are so small.

----------


## Alycat

> the feet are so small.


Lmao I thought the same thing.

----------


## G-Potion

Now that's an intriguing solicit. I think I'm gonna love this. With how #7 was written and now this, does it look like RHATO is going for a darker tone?

----------


## fanfan13

Oh no Jason... look at that sad hood face  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

> Now that's an intriguing solicit. I think I'm gonna love this. With how #7 was written and now this, does it look like RHATO is going for a darker tone?


Likely. The writer has focused on Jason as he first arrived the scene in the first arc. Now it seems he`ll be focusing on his death. 

I`m not sure I`d leave that for a bit later. I`d love to read flashbacks of his adventures as Robin first but hey, a cover like that is instant grab. This tone looks similar to some dark covers of the first volume with its instrospect feel. Jason looking at his own death! What a powerful concept.

a) Hope Ducra shows up. She`s a big mentor. 

b) Will the creative team explain how Jason came back this time? I`m half on the mind of never really giving it. It hits harder showing how he feels about it, IMO. Let readers to some of their devices.

----------


## G-Potion

> b) Will the creative team explain how Jason came back this time? I`m half on the mind of never really giving it. It hits harder showing how he feels about it, IMO. Let readers to some of their devices.


I'd say leave it unexplained as well. It plays very well to Jason's perception of himself and adds a bit of mysteriousness to his character.

----------


## Aahz

> Meanwhile, Red Hood faces a crisis of conscience when hes forced to relive the trauma of his own death and comes face to face with his greatest enemyhimself!


Didn't we had this already a few times? I think it is really time that they leave that behind.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Didn't we had this already a few times?* I think it is really time that they leave that behind.


Nope.

So far any identity conflicts under Lobdell come from external sources: The Joker during DOTF or Venom during the drug addiction arc. This would be the first time that Lobdell actually tackles the issue of Jason's death head on.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Nice cover. It makes me very interested in seeing what the actual issue brings and whether Lobdell is going to explore Jason's death a bit more then he has. So far Jason's death at the hands of the Joker has been just background information or something that is referenced by Jason himself. Lobdell hasn't really gone into depth with it before although he has had several flashbacks to that time in past issues. 




> I'd say leave it unexplained as well. It plays very well to Jason's perception of himself and adds a bit of mysteriousness to his character.


Yes, please leave it unexplained. I actually like that Jason himself has no idea how he came back.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nope.
> 
> So far any identity conflicts under Lobdell come from external sources: The Joker during DOTF or Venom during the drug addiction arc. This would be the first time that Lobdell actually tackles the issue of Jason's death head on.


I`d include Batman as well in Batman&Robin#20. 

That`s actually a good point. His death has been adressed over from external sources, not himself. That said, I want him to deal with the phsycology of it, not have a precise explanation for his return, let that remain a mistery to readers whether Jason himself knows the how or simply suspects it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I`d include Batman as well in Batman&Robin#20. 
> 
> That`s actually a good point. His death has been adressed over from external sources, not himself. That said, I want him to deal with the phsycology of it, not have a precise explanation for his return, let that remain a mistery to readers whether Jason himself knows the how or simply suspects it.


Yeah, I'd really like Lobdell to deal with the psychology of someone who has come back from the dead like Jason has. That has to have really messed with his mind and I'm not sure that particular aspect of it has even been explored much. Touched on in the past maybe but I don't think anyone has gone in depth about it.

----------


## RedBird

> b) Will the creative team explain how Jason came back this time? I`m half on the mind of never really giving it. It hits harder showing how he feels about it, IMO. Let readers to some of their devices.


Agreed, don't give an explanation. 

I mean, was neither here nor there about the preboots explanation of Jasons return, what with the superboy punch and all. But I think leaving his return from the grave to be mystery or an unanswerable anomaly adds to Jasons feelings of lack of purpose, and will allow for more focus on the journey he will take to gain it through self discovery.

----------


## G-Potion

> Didn't we had this already a few times? I think it is really time that they leave that behind.


We might have had something similar, BR:Eternal comes to mind, but wouldn't you want a take by someone who can actually write Jason well? And being in this book means it should have the magnitude as well as page count it deserves too.

----------


## Rise

> Oh boy
> 
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #10
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by NICOLA SCOTT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Who is Artemis?” part two! After getting shot out of the sky by the Bow of Ra, the Dark Trinity finds itself stranded and separated in the war-torn country of Qurac. While Artemis squares off against her long-forgotten foe responsible for the Bow of Ra’s disappearance, Bizarro comes across a group of innocent refugees looking for a savior. Meanwhile, Red Hood faces a crisis of conscience when he’s forced to relive the trauma of his own death and comes face to face with his greatest enemy—himself!
> On sale MAY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


I like that we got Nicola Scott on covers for Artemis arc.  :Smile: 

I am pretty sure at this point that I have seen every angle of Jason's dead lol, but the solicit is definitely interesting and I can't wait to see how Lobdell will handle it.

----------


## REAL

That honestly made me laugh, Rise. But yeah, the issue seems pretty interesting.

----------


## Alycat

The cover is partially ruined for me, since now all I can see is sad face on the mask.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The cover is partially ruined for me, since now all I can see is sad face on the mask.


I'm pretty sure that was the intention.

----------


## Aioros22

Thinking about it, we actually _didn`t_ do anything like this (assuming) or even close. This will likely be the first time since it happened back in the 80`s where a writer will be able (if so wishes) to show us what actually happened, if Jason was going after a real mother or not, if it was Sheila, if she betrayed him, all the dirty juice. 

And this time it won`t be handled second hand but from the victim`s own thoughts and words.

----------


## Alycat

> Thinking about it, we actually _didn`t_ do anything like this (assuming) or even close. This will likely be the first time since it happened back in the 80`s where a writer will be able (if so wishes) to show us what actually happened, if Jason was going after a real mother or not, if it was Sheila, if she betrayed him, all the dirty juice. 
> 
> And this time it won`t be handled second hand but from the victim`s own thoughts and words.


I thought that happened in the first part of Rhato 0 in Jason's narration where he went after his not dead real mother. Unless we're just throwing that all out.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I thought that happened in the first part of Rhato 0 in Jason's narration where he went after his not dead real mother. Unless we're just throwing that all out.


I'm going to guess that we are back to Catherine Todd being the one who raised him and Sheila Haywood being his real mother who sold him to the Joker and then was killed along with Jason when the bomb went off.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s what I am saying, there`s dirty juice that hasn`t been actually dealt with. The only mention of Sheila in New52 that I recall actually came from Damian. Jason confronting it gives a vehicle for us to what happened without cuts, presumely.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm going to guess that we are back to Catherine Todd being the one who raised him and Sheila Haywood being his real mother who sold him to the Joker and then was killed along with Jason when the bomb went off.


Why Lobdell would change that? Lobdell tends to add things to Jason's story, not subtract. He even argued the thing with Leslie had still happened.

----------


## Aioros22

IMO they can both easily coexist. You just need to have Batman and Jason not have their actual talk until he steals the tires. He can still get jailed because of him and Batman can kind of wonder about the kid then only to recognize him later. Or something similar. Easy peachy and that way you can have that bond between Leslie and Jason that existed during a time.

----------


## Assam

> IMO they can both easily coexist. You just need to have Batman and Jason not have their actual talk until he steals the tires. He can still get jailed because of him and Batman can kind of wonder about the kid then only to recognize him later. Or something similar. Easy peachy and that way you can have that bond between Leslie and Jason that existed during a time.


While their bond was sweet, time has not made me forgive Leslie for the crap she pulled in War Games. I'm all for keeping Jason's history in as good shape as possible, but the less I see of her, the better.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t have fondness or dislike of it since I never followed it but I can understand Steph fans who do. 

WG doesn`t seem to still count regardless and I don`t see any effort from TPTB to bring it again.

----------


## Alycat

For me the Leslie and Jaosn meeting can go in the trash. I like Batman taking interacting with him without Leslie needing to plead for it.

----------


## scary harpy

Of the Bat Myth, what is distinctly Jason's?

'Ma' Gunn
Nocturna
Garzonas family

Any other villains?

Jason and Eddie Bloomberg/Kid Devil fought side-by-side once...but that's no longer possible.

Am I forgetting anything uniquely Todd's?

Thanks.

----------


## Aioros22

A sorta friendship/bond with Bullock
Deacon Blackfire
The original KGBeast

----------


## scary harpy

> A sorta friendship/bond with Bullock
> Deacon Blackfire
> The original KGBeast


True.

I'd forgotten them...and Colonel Blimp too. :Smile: 

Thanks.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Why Lobdell would change that? Lobdell tends to add things to Jason's story, not subtract. He even argued the thing with Leslie had still happened.


Because nostalgia is somewhat a part of what Rebirth's about and Post Crisis it was Sheila Haywood that sold Jason out to the Joker not the Joker using Catherine Todd to lure Jason to him. To be completely and utterly honest I never for one moment believed that Joker was the one who set Jason on the path to become Robin in the first place. He's not the most reliable narrator around. Without Joker being the instigator and having such omnipresent involvement in Jason's life the plot point that he was lured to his death specifically by the Joker and that Catherine Todd was the bait completely falls apart.

In any case I'm merely guessing that's the direction they are going to go with based on other bits of his old history that have made a reappearance. We have the origin wherein Jason steals the tires from the Batmobile back in continuity as well as his time at Ma Gunn's school and possibly his connections to Two Face as well. Jason very well could have still met Leslie after being severely beaten/ almost knifed to death but it could be that he never encountered Batman at that time. That would still make what Lobdell said true and would easily allow the two parts to smoothly merge.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> A sorta friendship/bond with Bullock
> Deacon Blackfire
> The original KGBeast


KGBeast? I think you mean Killer Croc.Beast interacted with Tim quite a bit whereas I cant remember anything between him and Jason.

Add Nightslayer and Mime.

----------


## Aahz

- Dumpster Slasher
- Dr. Fang
- Film Freak
- Mongul

----------


## Aahz

> Because nostalgia is somewhat a part of what Rebirth's about and Post Crisis it was Sheila Haywood that sold Jason out to the Joker not the Joker using Catherine Todd to lure Jason to him. To be completely and utterly honest I never for one moment believed that Joker was the one who set Jason on the path to become Robin in the first place. He's not the most reliable narrator around. Without Joker being the instigator and having such omnipresent involvement in Jason's life the plot point that he was lured to his death specifically by the Joker and that Catherine Todd was the bait completely falls apart.


Personally I prefer the versions that don't include Jasons mother at all (Arkham Knight, Last Crusade).
And that some one like Bruce didn't discovered that Jason had still a living biological mother seems also quite implausible (Death in the Family, the plot of Death in the Family is anyway not that great and relies heavily on very unlikely coincidences).

----------


## darkseidpwns

> - Dumpster Slasher
> - Dr. Fang
> - Film Freak
> - Mongul


Mongul? LOL what? he's a Superman character who predates Jason. I wouldn't even call him a Hal Jordan character despite him having much more history.

----------


## Aahz

> Mongul? LOL what? he's a Superman character who predates Jason. I wouldn't even call him a Hal Jordan character despite him having much more history.


Jason was in For the Man who has Everything and was in the end the one that took Mongul down with Black Mercy.
And I don't think that any Robin appart from Jason ever faced Mongul.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Jason was in For the Man who has Everything and was in the end the one that took Mongul down with Black Mercy.
> And I don't think that any Robin appart from Jason ever faced Mongul.


Its not distinct, the animated adaptation ignored that altogether and had Diana throw it instead. The poster asked for something distinctive. At best you could say Jason was the first Robin to get kissed by Wonder Woman (and only?) .

----------


## Aioros22

> KGBeast? I think you mean Killer Croc.Beast interacted with Tim quite a bit whereas I cant remember anything between him and Jason.
> 
> Add Nightslayer and Mime.


"10 Nights Of The Beast" is not a Tim Drake era story that I recall. 

But yeah, Killer Croc definatly and Two-Face? I know Harvey is more a Bruce thing and there was that expanded bit with Dick (R:Year One) but his relationship with Harvey should be more personal than anybody else`s with the Post Crisis/TAS origins.

----------


## Aioros22

> Its not distinct, the animated adaptation ignored that altogether and had Diana throw it instead. The poster asked for something distinctive. At best you could say Jason was the first Robin to get kissed by Wonder Woman (and only?) .


He`s definatly the only one who can claim having been kissed by both Diana and Donna  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> "10 Nights Of The Beast" is not a Tim Drake era story that I recall. 
> 
> But yeah, Killer Croc definatly and Two-Face? I know Harvey is more a Bruce thing and there was that expanded bit with Dick (R:Year One) but his relationship with Harvey should be more personal than anybody else`s with the Post Crisis/TAS origins.


Troika and Robin 3, dont recall Beast having any significant interactions with Jason in that story.

For some weird reason Dent's role in Jason's life is a non factor, as you mentioned Dick has Year One and Tomasi's Nightwing run that I can recall and Dark Victory too.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> He`s definatly the only one who can claim having been kissed by both Diana and Donna


Artemis might be joining them.

----------


## Assam

> Artemis might be joining them.


Artemis: Another hero who makes more sense for Jason to be in a relationship with than Donna Troy

God that love triangle with Jason, Donna, and Kyle was stupid...

----------


## G-Potion

> Artemis: Another hero who makes more sense for Jason to be in a relationship with than Donna Troy
> 
> God that love triangle with Jason, Donna, and Kyle was stupid...


There was a love triangle?

----------


## Assam

> There was a love triangle?


Yup! Read "Countdown to Final Crisis" for details.

Actually, scratch that. Don't read Countdown. It'll only make you want to break things.

----------


## Aahz

> Actually, scratch that. Don't read Countdown. It'll only make you want to break things.


Some of the stuff they did with Jason was actually not that bad.

But the Love Triangle with Donna, Kyle and Jason was a wired Idea, since Donna and Kyle were actually together during the NTT era, and are far older than Jason (who was iirc younger than Danny Chase). 

I really don't get why they kept teaming him up with Dicks team mates.

----------


## scary harpy

> KGBeast? I think you mean Killer Croc.Beast interacted with Tim quite a bit whereas I cant remember anything between him and Jason.
> 
> Add Nightslayer and Mime.


Ah, yes.

Thief-of-the-Night
Night-thief
Slayer-of-the-Night
Night-Slayer

He, definitely, belongs to Nocturna...so, by extension, belongs to Jason.




> - Dumpster Slasher
> - Dr. Fang
> - Film Freak


Wow. I had forgotten these.

Thanks to all!

----------


## Aahz

And if you count the mime you can also add Yoshio Tahara and Tommy Carma.

----------


## scary harpy

> And if you count the mime you can also add Yoshio Tahara and Tommy Carma.


I count the Mime but I would've never remembered Tahara or Carma.

Thanks!!

----------


## AJpyro

> He`s definatly the only one who can claim having been kissed by both Diana and Donna





> Artemis might be joining them.





> Artemis: Another hero who makes more sense for Jason to be in a relationship with than Donna Troy
> 
> God that love triangle with Jason, Donna, and Kyle was stupid...


The man loves the Amazons.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Some of the stuff they did with Jason was actually not that bad.
> 
> But the Love Triangle with Donna, Kyle and Jason was a wired Idea, since Donna and Kyle were actually together during the NTT era, and are far older than Jason (who was iirc younger than Danny Chase). 
> 
> I really don't get why they kept teaming him up with Dicks team mates.


It's because Jason was artificially aged up when he returned via Superboy Prime punch. 

Also, now I really want to make a Danny Chase appreciation thread. Would anyone contribute to that?

----------


## Aahz

> It's because Jason was artificially aged up when he returned via Superboy Prime punch.


Thats not official canon.

----------


## Alycat

> It's because Jason was artificially aged up when he returned via Superboy Prime punch. 
> 
> Also, now I really want to make a Danny Chase appreciation thread. Would anyone contribute to that?


There are people who like Danny Chase???

----------


## Orujo-man

> The man loves the Amazons.


Jason's secret desire is die by Snu Snu.

----------


## Assam

> Thats not official canon.


Really? Then how do they explain him looking Dick's age when he died as a kid.

----------


## Assam

> There are people who like Danny Chase???


Danny Chase is one of my favorite Teen Titans.  :Big Grin:    I'd rather him still be around than BB, Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg.

----------


## Aioros22

> Some of the stuff they did with Jason was actually not that bad.
> 
> But the Love Triangle with Donna, Kyle and Jason was a wired Idea, since Donna and Kyle were actually together during the NTT era, and are far older than Jason (who was iirc younger than Danny Chase). 
> 
> I really don't get why they kept teaming him up with Dicks team mates.


I really don`t recall Danny being far older than Jason if even that. He was kicked out of TT by Dick because of what happened to Jason so they were likely of a similar age. 

Kyle was a member of Titans composed of Darkstar Troy (Donna), Roy, Terra, Beast Boy (after going throught a trauma altering his transformations) and Bart. I don`t think he was ever a teammate of Dick`s. The reason Jason and Donna had a thing seemed a nod to him during his stint on TT years before when he and Donna confined in each other over the others. Jason and Roy did the same thing back then. Basically, Jason was the one they could open up in those stories. 

Anyhow, it was made a triangle because Kyle briefly dated Donna in his first year as Green Lantern after the events of Zero Hour. Curiously enough he was also the youngest of the two...maybe old Donna liked them young after all. 

And I did enjoyed chapters of Countdown just not the overall convulted structure. Todd`s time in that other Earth with a Batman gone rogue is interesting stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> I really don`t recall Danny being far older than Jason if even that. He was kicked out of TT by Dick because of what happened to Jason so they were likely of a similar age. 
> 
> Kyle was a member of Titans composed of Darkstar Troy (Donna), Roy, Terra, Beast Boy (after going throught a trauma altering his transformations) and Bart. I don`t think he was ever a teammate of Dick`s. The reason Jason and Donna had a thing seemed a nod to him during his stint on TT years before when he and Donna confined in each other over the others. Jason and Roy did the same thing back then. Basically, Jason was the one they could open up in those stories. 
> 
> Anyhow, it was made a triangle because Kyle briefly dated Donna in his first year as Green Lantern after the events of Zero Hour. Curiously enough he was also the youngest of the two...maybe old Donna liked them young after all. 
> 
> And I did enjoyed chapters of Countdown just not the overall convulted structure. Todd`s time in that other Earth with a Batman gone rogue is interesting stuff.


Yeah I read bits of Countdown that concerned the Challenger trio, but honestly I don't remember the triangle thing being in my face, aside from a few jabs between Jason and Kyle. The thing with rogue Batman obviously mattered more to Jason's character.

----------


## Aahz

> I really don`t recall Danny being far older than Jason if even that. He was kicked out of TT by Dick because of what happened to Jason so they were likely of a similar age.


I thought that Danny was at least 13 when he joined, while Jason was imo still 12 at the time.

But anyway Danny was still far younger than the rest of the Titans, and Jason was at best his age.

----------


## Aahz

> Really? Then how do they explain him looking Dick's age when he died as a kid.


I not aware that something like this was ever mentioned in a comic, and in Red Hood Lost Years he is definatlly still a kid when he comes back to live.


In the new 52 they managed to make him close to Dick's age by compressing the timeline and making him already 16 when he started as Robin (and 17 when he died),  but that's not really in line with the original comics where he was way younger. I hope that they change that back ones the missing 10 years return.

----------


## scary harpy

> Also, now I really want to make a Danny Chase appreciation thread. Would anyone contribute to that?





> There are people who like Danny Chase???





> Danny Chase is one of my favorite Teen Titans.    I'd rather him still be around than BB, Raven, Starfire, and Cyborg.





> I really don`t recall Danny being far older than Jason if even that. He was kicked out of TT by Dick because of what happened to Jason so they were likely of a similar age.





> I thought that Danny was at least 13 when he joined, while Jason was imo still 12 at the time.
> 
> But anyway Danny was still far younger than the rest of the Titans, and Jason was at best his age.


I too liked Danny. I think he was younger than Jason.

I also think Dick treated him badly for no damn good reason. Teen Titans were the cannon fodder of the superheroes set then (aside from LSH and, maybe, Global Guardians). What's one more young death?

Poetic Justice would be Danny liking Jason but hating Dick and no one knows why. (Echoes from a non-existent past.  :Smile: )

----------


## Assam

> I too liked Danny. I think he was younger than Jason.
> 
> I also think Dick treated him badly for no damn good reason. Teen Titans were the cannon fodder of the superheroes set then (aside from LSH and, maybe, Global Guardians). What's one more young death?
> 
> Poetic Justice would be Danny liking Jason but hating Dick and no one knows why. (Echoes from a non-existent past. )


Joining the Titans is basically a death sentence. Just think of their body count in Infinite Crisis alone...

----------


## scary harpy

> Joining the Titans is basically a death sentence. Just think of their body count in Infinite Crisis alone...


Too true.

Oh, and thanks to everyone who answered my post about distinctly Jason.

I also remembered one more name: Magpie.

I am glad she's returned. I once thought she had potential.

----------


## Alycat

> I too liked Danny. I think he was younger than Jason.
> 
> I also think Dick treated him badly for no damn good reason. Teen Titans were the cannon fodder of the superheroes set then (aside from LSH and, maybe, Global Guardians). What's one more young death?
> 
> Poetic Justice would be Danny liking Jason but hating Dick and no one knows why. (Echoes from a non-existent past. )


Danny was pretty damn annoying in my opinion. Yeah people die all the time, especially for the Titans, but his comments  regarding Jason's death were super out of line.

----------


## Aahz

> I too liked Danny. I think he was younger than Jason.


Maybe the same age, but anyway Jason was  still roughly 7 years younger than Dicks generation. Which makes the love triangle a little bit wired. Thats a little bit like if you had a love triangle with Damian, and two members of Tims generation.

----------


## Aahz

Next RHatO video from Comicstorian

----------


## Orujo-man

> Maybe the same age, but anyway Jason was  still roughly 7 years younger than Dicks generation. Which makes the love triangle a little bit wired. Thats a little bit like if you had a love triangle with Damian, and two members of Tims generation.


Honestly I don't see that love triangle in countdown. Maybe Jason had a little interest in Donna, but nothing serious and to me Donna had more pity for Jason than other thing. 

Anyway 5 or 6 years younger doesn't matter that much when you pass of 18. If I'm correct, in the actual continuity Bruce has 30+ years and Selina has 23-24 and no one seems to be crazy about that. Same as pre-flashpoint Dick and Babs.

----------


## Aioros22

It really doesn`t matter. It just upsets Donna fans because it paints her a MILF of sorts when she used to be the one younger than her husband by a good while. That said, the good vibe banter (and kind of flirty on Jason`s oart at least...) when both were on NTT is more worrysome since Jason was a teen.

----------


## Aahz

> It really doesn`t matter. It just upsets Donna fans because it paints her a MILF of sorts when she used to be the one younger than her husband by a good while. That said, the good vibe banter (and kind of flirty on Jason`s oart at least...) when both were on NTT is more worrysome since Jason was a teen.


I don't think that Jason was really serious about it in NTT (and later with Barbara in Gotham Knights).

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly I don't see that love triangle in countdown. Maybe Jason had a little interest in Donna, but nothing serious and to me Donna had more pity for Jason than other thing.


At least at some points you had the impression, that Kyle and Jason don't like each other because of Donna.

----------


## yagha

So is Bruce anyone else's favourite DC superhero until the moment Jason shows up, and then you suddenly sort of hate Batman and want Jason to kick his non-lethal ass?

It's so weird, I don't feel like this about any two other characters, but Bruce literally drops 100% in likeability for me as soon as our boy Jaosn shows his face. Maybe because separately the two are cool in different ways, but their views are so fundamentally different that when they're together I feel like I have to pick a side?

----------


## Alycat

> So is Bruce anyone else's favourite DC superhero until the moment Jason shows up, and then you suddenly sort of hate Batman and want Jason to kick his non-lethal ass?
> 
> It's so weird, I don't feel like this about any two other characters, but Bruce literally drops 100% in likeability for me as soon as our boy Jaosn shows his face. Maybe because separately the two are cool in different ways, but their views are so fundamentally different that when they're together I feel like I have to pick a side?


Just look  at the fanfiction section on Ao3 to see a lot of people feel the same way, although not as resonably as you put it. I like it because I enjoy the similarity and contrast, but only when its Batman is right but also terrible at presenting why and Jason is right in a way too, but also idiotic about the way he does it. I  hate it when Batman is presented as some hateful ridged guy who is wrong and stupid and Jason is right and a poor woobie because Bruce is being mean to him. Their relationship should be complex with disagreements and love. I feel the same way about Bruce and Dick. Too bad so many fans don't get that.

----------


## Rise

> So is Bruce anyone else's favourite DC superhero until the moment Jason shows up, and then you suddenly sort of hate Batman and want Jason to kick his non-lethal ass?
> 
> It's so weird, I don't feel like this about any two other characters, but Bruce literally drops 100% in likeability for me as soon as our boy Jaosn shows his face. Maybe because separately the two are cool in different ways, but their views are so fundamentally different that when they're together I feel like I have to pick a side?


I'm quite the opposite.  :Big Grin: 

I didn't care about Bruce before, but Jason actually made him really likable to me. His complex relationship with Jason added a lot of depth to him and humanized him by showing that he's capable of being decent and also a flawed guy.

----------


## Orujo-man

> So is Bruce anyone else's favourite DC superhero until the moment Jason shows up, and then you suddenly sort of hate Batman and want Jason to kick his non-lethal ass?
> 
> It's so weird, I don't feel like this about any two other characters, but Bruce literally drops 100% in likeability for me as soon as our boy Jaosn shows his face. Maybe because separately the two are cool in different ways, but their views are so fundamentally different that when they're together I feel like I have to pick a side?


Honestly I don't have that feeling. I don't think Bruce is right in everything, same as Jason. Both of them have good points, and both of them, in the end, failures and falls in contradictions. Like everyone else.

Yeah, Bruce is responsible of Jason's death (put kids in the battleground), and is responsible in some way of others deaths by the hands of the Joker, because he don't stop him permanently. But at the same time Jason is responsible of his own death, he accepts to be a Robin in the end and the job had risks, so he can't blame Bruce for that. Same as he can't blame Bruce for the actions of a crazy man like the Joker.

Both of them are right but at the same time both of them are wrong. One of the things I like of Jason is that he is the living proof that even the "all mighty, intelligent and rich Batman" makes mistakes, and even if he has good desires and good moral, thats not necessarily means good consequences, of contrary, it ends badly. And in the other side, even a bad act in the end is capable of do a good thing, like Joker's death. Personally I prefer this type of approach more than the old-classic black and white view.

I know, some people hate Jason for confronting Bruce and question him, making evident the holes of his own morals. I don't see this a bad thing, to me is good. In the end Bruce is a man, he and his ideals are not infalible and he makes mistakes, humanized him.




> I'm quite the opposite. 
> 
> I didn't care about Bruce before, but Jason actually made him really likable to me. His complex relationship with Jason added a lot of depth to him and humanized him by showing that he's capable of being decent and also a flawed guy.


Basically this, more resumed and concrete than the brick I wrote.

----------


## Assam

> Honestly I don't have that feeling. I don't think Bruce is right in everything, same as Jason. Both of them have good points, and both of them, in the end, failures and falls in contradictions. Like everyone else.
> 
> Yeah, Bruce is responsible of Jason's death (put kids in the battleground), and is responsible in some way of others deaths by the hands of the Joker, because he don't stop him permanently. But at the same time Jason is responsible of his own death, he accepts to be a Robin in the end and the job had risks, so he can't blame Bruce for that. Same as he can't blame Bruce for the actions of a crazy man like the Joker.
> 
> Both of them are right but at the same time both of them are wrong. One of the things I like of Jason is that he is the living proof that even the "all mighty, intelligent and rich Batman" makes mistakes, and even if he has good desires and good moral, thats not necessarily means good consequences, of contrary, it ends badly. And in the other side, even a bad act in the end is capable of do a good thing, like Joker's death. Personally I prefer this type of approach more than the old-classic black and white view.
> 
> I know, some people hate Jason for confronting Bruce and question him, making evident the holes of his own morals. I don't see this a bad thing, to me is good. In the end Bruce is a man, he and his ideals are not infalible and he makes mistakes, humanized him.


Bruce deserves to be questioned, making me happy whenever Jason did so,  and he is, just in general, a dick. He should have done better by Jason, he shouldn't have tried to be so controlling of Tim, he shouldn't have been downright abusive towards Steph and Huntress, etc.

Just another reason I like Jason Todd, and I hate Bruce.

----------


## Alycat

> Bruce deserves to be questioned, making me happy whenever Jason did so,  and he is, just in general, a dick. He should have done better by Jason, he shouldn't have tried to be so controlling of Tim, he shouldn't have been downright abusive towards Steph and Huntress, etc.
> 
> Just another reason I like Jason Todd, and I hate Bruce.


I mean it's fine to hate Bruce as long as you acknowledge how right he is concerning some of those people and things and how their own flaws contribute to the situation. It's good for Jason to confront Bruce is some situations l but Jason can also be wrong and a dick himself just like Tim and lol Dick.

----------


## Assam

> I mean it's fine to hate Bruce as long as you acknowledge how right he is concerning some of those people and things and how their own flaws contribute to the situation. It's good for Jason to confront Bruce is some situations l but Jason can also be wrong and a dick himself just like Tim and lol Dick.


The only person that I mentioned that Bruce had any good points against was Jason, since, as Robin, he was too violent. The others? No,  Bruce was completely in the wrong in how he acted toward them.

----------


## Alycat

> The only person that I mentioned that Bruce had any good points against was Jason, since, as Robin, he was too violent. The others? No,  Bruce was completely in the wrong in how he acted toward them.


I just in general towards other charctars not specifically those.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I think that is not quite right Comixology

https://www.comixology.com/Red-Hood-...nRBZGRpdGlvbnM

----------


## Aahz

I got a little bit triggered by the "Tom King"-discussion so i decided to post few scans where Jasons skills a discribed a little bit more postive.

Batman #409 - Seite 17.jpg

Batman 410 1.jpg

Batman 410 3.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman 410 2.jpg

Batman 410 4.jpg

Batman 410 5.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman 415 1.jpg

Batman 415 2.jpg

Batman 416 1.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman 416 2.jpg

Batman 428.jpg

Batman 429.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman 645.jpg

Batman And Robin #23 (2011) - Page 2.jpg

Batman And Robin #23 (2011) - Page 3.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman Annual 12.jpg

Deadman Dead Again 2.jpg

Deadman Dead Again 3.jpg

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## Aahz

Gotham Knights 43.jpg

JLA V2 0.jpg

New Teen Titans 21.jpg

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## Aahz

New Teen Titans 31.jpg

Red Hood - The Lost Days 2.jpg

Red Hood - The Lost Days 3.jpg

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## Aahz

Red Hood - The Lost Days 4.jpg

Red Hood Lost Days 1 2.jpg

Red Hood Lost Days 1 1.jpg

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## Aahz

Secret Origins 80 Page Giant.jpg

The Dark Knight Returns - The Last Crusade #1 (2016) - Seite 12.jpg

The Dark Knight Returns - The Last Crusade.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman - Arkham Knight - Genesis 1 1.jpg

Batman - Arkham Knight - Genesis #1 (von 6) (2015) - Seite 20.jpg

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## Aahz

Batman #636 - Seite 19.jpg

Batman #636 - Seite 20.jpg

Batman #636 - Seite 21.jpg

----------


## Tigrex-22

I think one of Jason's problem is that he's not the favorite Robin of any of the current writers and many fans of the other Robins dislike him.
So, he will mostly be used to make the others look better.
Also the failed Robin stuff doesn't help, although it was added later.

Another problem is that after Under the Red Hood nobody knew what to do with him, which led to a lack of development of Jason himself and a lot of bad writing until the New 52.
Then people got mad because Starfire and Arsenal were added to complete the Outlaws with Jason, while Dick lost his connection with them and the broader DC Universe in general.

But i think the main problem is that while Jason was dead, the other Robins got one feat after another over a long period of time.
When Jason came back from the dead, he needed a lot of feats in a short amount of time, so he could be able to challenge the Bats in the first place and still needs more of them, when you think about the way he is treated when he has to team up with them.
But his naysayers use this to call him a wish fulfillment character and ignore his feats and most of his training to make him look bad in comparison to their favorite Robins.

----------


## Aahz

@ Tigrex-22

I have to agree. But I think if the writers would put more effort into it, and portrait him in more balanced way (Miller did for example imo a brilliant job in writing him as Robin in Last Crusade), that it would be possible to improve his image/reputation. 
But some writers are really doing the opposite and are really enforcing the (imo wrong) prejudices about him, and are making constantly jokes about him. His portrait B&RE would have been already massively improved if they just removed some of the dialogue.

----------


## Tigrex-22

Miller and Tomasi to a degree were the last good ones.
Lobdell's writing is completely ignored by the Bat-writers, so his development of Jason doesn't improve his situation in the Bat-Family.
I only have the first Volume of B&RE so i can only talk about that part of the story.
But you're right with the dialogue of Jason, which is often just cringeworthy.
Also his equipment is rendered useless way to often and his fights are lackluster.

I think if someone would take the time to revisit all of Jason's history and use that knowledge to make a coherent timeline and to explain what his strengths and skills are, it could solve most of his problems.

----------


## Aahz

> Miller and Tomasi to a degree were the last good ones.


I think Pak did also quite a good Job in Batman/Superman.




> But you're right with the dialogue of Jason, which is often just cringeworthy.


It is also what the other characters say over him.




> Also his equipment is rendered useless way to often and his fights are lackluster.


 Yeah the issue with fight against Bane in B&RE is the primary example.




> I think if someone would take the time to revisit all of Jason's history and use that knowledge to make a coherent timeline and to explain what his strengths and skills are, it could solve most of his problems.


Thats imo something Lobdell should finally do. I think that for example last Crusade or Arkham Knight Genesis did a better job at it as Lobdells origin stories sofar.

----------


## Aahz

> I think if someone would take the time to revisit all of Jason's history and use that knowledge to make a coherent timeline and to explain what his strengths and skills are, it could solve most of his problems.


Btw. if one really goes back to Starlins run, and looks how terribly Bruce failed in that time, I think that it would be quite easy to come up with a narative who what happend their lead to Jason going to the "Dark Side".

- You have Ten Nights Of the Beast, which was probaly the first Time Bruce faced an Opponent that was to dangerous for him

- The Cult where a villain managed to breack Bruce and to almost destroy Gotham

- the death of Kate Babcock by the Dumpster Slasher, and later this guy going free on a technicality (OK Jason never met Kate on panel, but it wouldn't be a big issue to change that, and her death even drove Bruce nearly over the edge)

- than of course Diplomats Son with the death of Gloria Stanson 

- and finally Killing Joke (it is strange that they never really went into what effect this had on Jason)

- maybe you could even bring Legends, Darkside got the people to turn against the heros and Jason got beaten to death by an angry mob into the mix

If you put that together you could probably quite easily make a compelling narrative about who Jason stopped to believe that Bruce methods are working, and got increasingly darker, aggressive and more cynical.

----------


## Tigrex-22

You mean the annual right?
Wasn't that the last time he used the All-Blades.

Right, he's treated like an amateur and the Bane fight is just weird.
He gets his helmet destroyed by normal Bane and Tim does negotiations with Jason's gun.

Miller can write a great Batman when he wants to and his Jason greatly benefits from that.
AK:G is a bit over the top but Tomasi writes a Jason who is a lot more capable than the one in the game.

I still have a lot of catching up to do with those older comics but your idea seems pretty good to me.
The problem with the Killing Joke, in this case, is that Babs and Jason didn't interacted with each other before that and without a established dynamic it's difficult to write anything about it.


Sry, but i don't know how to do those separate quotations while mobile.

----------


## Aahz

> You mean the annual right?
> Wasn't that the last time he used the All-Blades.


 I meant Batman/Superman #26, but the Annual was also OK





> I still have a lot of catching up to do with those older comics but your idea seems pretty good to me.
> The problem with the Killing Joke, in this case, is that Babs and Jason didn't interacted with each other before that and without a established dynamic it's difficult to write anything about it.


They interacted in Batman Annual #13 and Gotham Knights #43, and they could also use that to establish what the relation between them was back than.

----------


## Assam

There IS definite bias against Jason in the DC writing room. I'm of the opinion that each Robin each is weaker fighter than the last, while still supplying their own merits. So, by that logic, Jason would be the second best fighter among them. And while he's still portrayed as more competent than Steph because DC hates Steph more than George Lucas hates Star Wars, he's still often showed as nothing compared to Dick, Tim, and even Damian. Sad.

----------


## Alycat

Neither King nor Seeley at least hate Jason or Tim. Tynion obviously doesnt either, and I have some serious problems with Lobdells portrayl of Tim and Kori'/Roy's relationship with Dick but none of that seems like character hate and more like editorial making such a mess of things that other writers aren't sure where charcters  were suppose to fit, which isn't the writers fault, and its no surprise that alot of Teen Titans or the first Red Hood get ignored when it was full of stuff that people hated. I think Rebirth has given us a much better understanding where everyones position should be ( Tim's nondeath and King's obvious  twitter trolling people aside).

----------


## Tigrex-22

@Aahz
Didn't know about the annual but Gotham Knights was written many years later, but is really good.

@unclepulky 
Actually I think Jason should be able to beat Dick because of his size and weight advantage, but for some reason stuff like this doesn't matter in fights for DC.
Also he is more competent than Steph.
Meanwhile Tim over the years went from relatable Everyman to Gary Stu and Damian shouldn't be as good as he is because of his age and size.
Also he's even younger than 13 because of artificial ageing, but i do think he should have the greatest potential of them all.

----------


## Assam

> @Aahz
> Didn't know about the annual but Gotham Knights was written many years later, but is really good.
> 
> @unclepulky 
> Actually I think Jason should be able to beat Dick because of his size and weight advantage, but for some reason stuff like this doesn't matter in fights for DC.
> Also he is more competent than Steph.
> Meanwhile Tim over the years went from relatable Everyman to Gary Stu and Damian shouldn't be as good as he is because of his age and size.
> Also he's even younger than 13 because of artificial ageing, but i do think he should have the greatest potential of them all.


In order:

Jason and Tim could both beat Dick under the right circumstances. Jason just needs to be having a good day, while Tim would need some time prep. 
Jason IS more competent than Steph yes. I was just saying the reason he's allowed to be shown as better than her is because DC hates her. 
I miss everyman Tim. I related to him so much. 
Damian loses every other Robin, including Steph, but yeah, he does have the potential to surpass everyone but Cass in terms of combat abilities.

----------


## REAL

There's no bias against Jason from the writers. He's not the favorite to some, but they aren't deliberately trying to make him look bad. Jason is just a pretty complex and it's not easy to write him so some don't even bother.

And honestly, every single member of the batfamily suffered from bad showing and writing even DC golden boy (Batman). Dick is pretty much the punching bag for the batfamily (I'm still waiting for Alfred to punsh him in the face too) and was "the dude in distress" many times. Tim suffered from bad writing for years and currently in limbo. Damian hardly allowed to grow up and always stuck with the same development (the bratty kid who need to learn how to act decent with the others).

Jason is currently doing fine, Lobdell is doing a great job with him and his position with the batfamily has been more defined than before. Also, giving him his own trinity is a good status quo for him and I'm satisfied with how much he has grown and love his book.

----------


## Assam

> There's no bias against Jason from the writers. He's not the favorite to some, but they aren't deliberately trying to make him look bad. Jason is just a pretty complex and it's not easy to write him so some don't even bother.
> 
> And honestly, every single member of the batfamily suffered from bad showing and writing even DC golden boy (Batman). Dick is pretty much the punching bag for the batfamily (I'm still waiting for Alfred to punsh him in the face too) and was "the dude in distress" many times. Tim suffered from bad writing for years and currently in limbo. Damian hardly allowed to grow up and always stuck with the same development (the bratty kid who need to learn how to act decent with the others).
> 
> Jason is currently doing fine, Lobdell is doing a great job with him and his position with the batfamily has been more defined than before. Also, giving him his own trinity is a good status quo for him and I'm satisfied with how much he has grown and love his book.


Lobdell IS finally doing a good job with Jason, only took him 6 years, and RHatO is really good. But when he's put in crossovers, Jason doesn't fair too well. 

Alfred would kick that stupid boy's ass. 

Dick has been a punching bag so many times and I love it. I think my favorite time was when he found Cass after she'd been drugged by Dr. Death, and her immediate response upon waking up and seeing him was to punch him through a wall for what he'd recently done to Babs. Dick goes, "What did I do wrong?" and you can just hear the comedic music play.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

With King going out of his way to antagonize Jason fans and having never portrait him as competent or nuanced pn his stories, well, is hard to argue he doesn't have a bias against him.

Out of all the writers in the Batman office so far, the only ones that had a good grasp of Jason have been Bermejo and Higgins. Maybe Snyder could be one if he would give a damn for characters beyond his OCs.




> Lobdell IS finally doing a good job with Jason, only took him 6 years, and RHatO is really good.


Nah, Lobdell has doing great job with Jason since day one. Even if the crossovers don't follow his stories to the letter, is Lobdell's work what has raised Jason's profile through the last six years.

Plus, the current RHATO wouldn't be possible without all the character work brought by RHATO v1 and RH/A

----------


## Alycat

> With King going out of his way to antagonize Jason fans and having never portrait him as competent or nuanced pn his stories, well, is hard to argue he doesn't have a bias against him.
> 
> Out of all the writers in the Batman office so far, the only ones that had a good grasp of Jason have been Bermejo and Higgins. Maybe Snyder could be one if he would give a damn for characters beyond his OCs.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, Lobdell has doing great job with Jason since day one. Even if the crossovers don't follow his stories to the letter, is Lobdell's work what has raised Jason's profile through the last six years.
> 
> Plus, the current RHATO wouldn't be possible without all the character work brought by RHATO v1 and RH/A


Maybe fans should'nt take things so personally. I saw people   acting like King insulted their mother. He's no more incompetent than anyone else in crossovers, although focus on other characters automatically put him and Tim at a disadvantage. Sorry, but I disagree that Lobdell has been doing a great job since day 1. He should've been doing a lot better .  If he had then imo,so many would'nt have been surprised by how much Rebirth was an improvement. The dialoge, character interaction/dynamics, and overall story have remarkably improved to me. I actually care about what Jason, Artemis, and Bizzaro are doing.

----------


## Aahz

> There's no bias against Jason from the writers. He's not the favorite to some, but they aren't deliberately trying to make him look bad.


I'm not saying that they are doing it deliberately, but if look at B&RE most of the time they are just making jokes at his expense or let him act very immature. There is imo for example no reason to put a line like this on panel.

Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg

And even apart from stuff like this, when they highlight how awesome all the other characters are, but not doing the same with him, he still looks bad in the end.

----------


## Assam

> I'm not saying that they are doing it deliberately, but if look at B&RE most of the time they are just making jokes at his expense or let him act very immature. There is imo for example no reason to put a line like this on panel.
> 
> Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg
> 
> And even apart from stuff like this, when they highlight how awesome all the other characters are, but not doing the same with him, he still looks bad in the end.


To be fair in this one case, that may also be the least flattering image of Tim ever drawn.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Maybe fans should'nt take things so personally. I saw people   acting like King insulted their mother. He's no more incompetent than anyone else in crossovers, although focus on other characters automatically put him and Tim at a disadvantage. Sorry, but I disagree that Lobdell has been doing a great job since day 1. He should've been doing a lot better .  If he had then imo,so many would'nt have been surprised by how much Rebirth was an improvement. The dialoge, character interaction/dynamics, and overall story have remarkably improved to me. I actually care about what Jason, Artemis, and Bizzaro are doing.


That is because people let their own bias against him color their expectations about the book. People are much more lenient now because very few people have real investement or preconceptions about Bizarro or Artemis; unlike Roy or particularly Starfire.

If you were to read in detail Lobdell's entire body of work with Jason you'll see he hasn't changed anything on his approach.

----------


## Assam

> That is because people let their own bias against him color their expectations about the book. People are much more lenient now because very few people have real investement or preconceptions about Bizarro or Artemis; unlike Roy or particularly Starfire.
> 
> If you were to read in detail Lobdell's entire body of work with Jason you'll see he hasn't changed anything on his approach.


I read the first storyline of the New 52 RHatO. And I hated it. His bastardization of Roy and Kory was just too painful. Jason I just didn't care about in it. 

Now, we've gotten a fully realized Jason who I'm happy to see share burgers with Bruce, and two very fun characters in the forms of Bizarro and Artemis. 

Hell, it's the current run of RHatO that finally broke the tie for me, and made Jason my 4th favorite Robin and Dick my definitive least favorite. I love it.

----------


## Alycat

> To be fair in this one case, that may also be the least flattering image of Tim ever drawn.


Man, this and Robin war had some of the worst Tim faces ever. He looked like he was melting in some panels.




> That is because people let their own bias against him color their expectations about the book. People are much more lenient now because very few people have real investement or preconceptions about Bizarro or Artemis; unlike Roy or particularly Starfire.
> 
> If you were to read in detail Lobdell's entire body of work with Jason you'll see he hasn't changed anything on his approach.


I did'nt have any expectations for Lobdell  before going into the first RHATO and I still hated it. Even then, theres nothing wrong with people have certain expectations for characters. If they didn't, then those probably weren't beloved characters.

----------


## REAL

Rebirth Jason is the result of 5 years of development in RHATO and RH/A. Lobdell didn't suddenly get better and DT is right that he didn't change his approach with Jason. 

And whether someone liked his previous books or not, think they are good or bad is matter of opinions, not facts and everyone is entitled to them.




> I'm not saying that they are doing it deliberately, but if look at B&RE most of the time they are just making jokes at his expense or let him act very immature. There is imo for example no reason to put a line like this on panel.
> 
> Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg
> 
> And even apart from stuff like this, when they highlight how awesome all the other characters are, but not doing the same with him, he still looks bad in the end.


This is a poor attempt to be funny from the writer. 

BRE was a big festival of bad writing and characterization and many suffered from it. Jason got it bad because he was stuck with Tim  (a character that has nothing going for him besides being "smart"), but he got some good showing against Cass and the moment with Tim when he faced his fear wasn't bad.

----------


## Alycat

> This is a poor attempt in trying to be funny from the writer. 
> 
> BRE was a big festival of bad writing and characterization and many suffered from it. Jason got it bad because he was stuck with Tim  (a character that has nothing going for him besides being "smart"), but he got some good showing against Cass and the moment with Tim when he faced his fear wasn't bad.


I think he had the best showing against Cass, since Dick got btfo in like a second and I can't really remember the other fights. I will say that I think finally being seperated from Tim ( sorry Tim), will be good for Jason during cameos and crossovers. I mean they had some good moments, but now writers can't just pair them off.

----------


## Aioros22

> I read the first storyline of the New 52 RHatO. And I hated it. His bastardization of Roy and Kory was just too painful. Jason I just didn't care about in it. 
> 
> Now, we've gotten a fully realized Jason who I'm happy to see share burgers with Bruce, and two very fun characters in the forms of Bizarro and Artemis. 
> 
> Hell, it's the current run of RHatO that finally broke the tie for me, and made Jason my 4th favorite Robin and Dick my definitive least favorite. I love it.


I can understand if someone likes this RATHO more than the previous one but when you say it finally took Loedbell six years to write Jason well your pet peeve was actually Roy and kory I`d have to obviously disagree  :Cool: 

Let`s put it this way, his Jason has been growing but isn`t a different character. You have burger exchanges with Bruce now but back then you had a breakest at the rooftop with Tim and the happy memory lane with Bruce. Or even later giving a chance to Joker`s Daugther to rehabilitate herself (which IMO was perhaps of the most amazing little bit done with the character, after all the trauma he`s endured, that went under the radar of the general fanbase). It`s the same voice and the writer was always good with it. It`s the general tone of the book that has been changing.

----------


## Alycat

> I can understand if someone likes this RATHO more than the previous one but when you say it finally took Loedbell six years to write Jason well your pet peeve was actually Roy and kory I`d have to obviously disagree 
> 
> Let`s put it this way, his Jason has been growing but isn`t a different character. You have burger exchanges with Bruce now but back then you had a breakest at the rooftop with Tim and the happy memory lane with Bruce. Or even later giving a chance to Joker`s Daugther to rehabilitate herself (which IMO was perhaps of the most amazing little bit done with the character, after all the trauma he`s endured, that went under the radar of the general fanbase). It`s the same voice and the writer was always good with it. It`s the general tone of the book that has been changing.


You are absolutly right I think. My problem was always the Outlaws part, not the Red Hood part, but since the Outlaws were a large part of the first book that I could'nt stand I just dumped it. Although I will say that I really wish Jokers daughter had rehabilitated. If only because that was her chance to not be a terrible character.

----------


## Aioros22

> This is a poor attempt to be funny from the writer.


Pretty much a basic soap opera line about a girl and the bad boy that tries to be funny and just falls flat. 

Would have been easily better if it was Jason holding the helmet and you could see him smirking or eye rolling while índex pointing at Barbara for being an entitled brat while they`re supposed to be stopping a threat. But that would require actual character storytelling instead of just characters posing tuff and constipated. Wich amazingly Jason does as well even with the helmet on..

----------


## Aioros22

> You are absolutly right I think. My problem was always the Outlaws part, not the Red Hood part, but since the Outlaws were a large part of the first book that I could'nt stand I just dumped it. Although I will say that I really wish Jokers daughter had rehabilitated. If only because that was her chance to not be a terrible character.


Yeah I totally got it. 

While the chance was amiss it was also crucial for the ending Loedbell was looking for. Because of that we have the current RATHO and Roy back with the Titans. Jason going lone anti-hero mode one last time and sacrificed his friendship with Roy, despite the later not knowing better is another great character bit on Jason.

----------


## Orujo-man

I have the feeling that this thread is going in circles. 

Yeah Rebirth was an improvement of the old RHATO, but Lobdell didn't change his way to write Jason, the core is the same. Lobdell improved the times of the storytelling and he has a better team around him (or that's my impression), so the final result is better.

The actual Jason it's precisely the result of his evolution thanks to the events in the first RHATO and RH/A.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s good, people are passionate to discuss it. Threads in circles..dime a dozen  :Big Grin: 

Totally agree on how Jason`s evolution has been handled.

----------


## Alycat

Yep, ain't nothing worse than a dead character thread. I wish I could have as much to say about other characters I like.

----------


## Orujo-man

It's not a complaint, only an observation. It's curious to see it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *I read the first storyline of the New 52 RHatO. And I hated it. His bastardization of Roy and Kory was just too painful. Jason I just didn't care about in it.*


See?




> Now, we've gotten a fully realized Jason who I'm happy to see share burgers with Bruce, and two very fun characters in the forms of Bizarro and Artemis. 
> 
> Hell, it's the current run of RHatO that finally broke the tie for me, and made Jason my 4th favorite Robin and Dick my definitive least favorite. I love it.


Jason has mellowed out and is more open about his feelings but that kind of moments were there since the start. Of course, you'll knew that already if you would've read beyond the first storyline on the older books.

At times I have to wonder if  comic book fans know how stories work but Jason isn't the first case I've seen of people getting all bent of shape because he is not the idealized character since the start. Those characterizations take a lot of time and effort if you want to make them long lasting.

----------


## Aahz

> This is a poor attempt to be funny from the writer.


Yeah, but unfortunately the majority of his appearances in this book is like this.

I mean the fight scene with Cass was cool, but how Jason acted afterwards  :Mad: 

And some people like scene with Jason overcoming the mind control, but for me it fell kind of flat. It wasn't the first time that it was done, usually Jason got through it without needing the help of someone else, and I din't really result in any kind of charcter development imo. 
And imo if you put a characer in moment of weakness like this, him over coming it should be a cool moment but that wasn't really the case her. For me this scene propped again more Tim than Jason.


The Tim Jason dynamic was in general quite poorly handled in this series. I mean their characters fit actually quite good for a classic odd couple / buddy cop dynamic, but the writers completly failed to make it work imo.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Rebirth Jason is the result of 5 years of development in RHATO and RH/A. Lobdell didn't suddenly get better and DT is right that he didn't change his approach with Jason.


Lobdell may not have changed his approach with Jason but I do think he has a much better editor then he had for the original RHATO run. There's a bit more polish to his work now then there was then to me.

----------


## Alycat

> The Tim Jason dynamic was in general quite poorly handled in this series. I mean their characters fit actually quite good for a classic odd couple / buddy cop dynamic, but the writers completly failed to make it work imo.


Like I said before, the lack of Tim for however long should be good for Jason, now that he can't be shoved into that corner anymore.  Maybe a new dynamic. I'll take anyone but Duke.




> Lobdell may not have changed his approach with Jason but I do think he has a much better editor then he had for the original RHATO run. There's a bit more polish to his work now then there was then to me.


That's actually a good point. A good editor goes a long way.  Do the Teen Titans also have a new editor?

----------


## REAL

> ....


Aahz, buddy, you hate BRE so much? You hate everything they done with Jason in it? Then for God's sake stop bringing it all time and stop giving it more value than it deserves. Hardly any freaking one remember it or even care about it nor it did any damage to Jason or affected him in any way. Actually, I enjoyed some of Jason moments in it and even like it (I still laugh at his comment about Batman making child soldiers).

And really, stop being negative about everything. *Jason is doing fine*. He was a character who was dead for almost 20 freaking years and no one thought that he will ever come back, but look where he is now. He has his own book and DC even made a place for him by making their universe accept antiheros where it before has no place for them. They are building him and it takes time, but they are getting there and I'm seeing the progress they are doing with him like how they slowly stopped calling him "the bad robin" and stopped blaming for his death. He also getting more media exposure and people who don't read comics or even cares about them know know about him. Heck, he's actually extermly populer among them. 

Also, dude you are a walking DC Wikipedia. How about you share with us a postive things about Jason that you know? Or stories you like about him and start discussing them with us instead of wasting your time talking about things that piss you off.

----------


## REAL

> Lobdell may not have changed his approach with Jason but I do think he has a much better editor then he had for the original RHATO run. There's a bit more polish to his work now then there was then to me.


DC has a better editorial direction in Rebirth than they had in New 52. Their entire line has improved and RHATO's ex editor is giving us one of DC best books. New Super-Man. 

And I'm not denying that RHATO has improved because it did and Lobdell has learned from some of the mistakes he made and listen to the criticism which is admirable thing about him, but I'm just saying that he didn't change the way he write Jason. His character just evolved and matured.

----------


## dietrich

> Aahz, buddy, you hate BRE so much? You hate everything they done with Jason in it? Then for God's sake stop bringing it all time and stop giving it more value than it deserves. Hardly any freaking one remember it or even care about it nor it did any damage to Jason or affected him in any way. Actually, I enjoyed some of Jason moments in it and even like it (I still laugh at his comment about Batman making child soldiers).
> 
> And really, stop being negative about everything. *Jason is doing fine*. He was a character who was dead for almost 20 freaking years and no one thought that he will ever come back, but look where he is now. He has his own book and DC even made a place for him by making their universe accept antiheros where it before has no place for them. They are building him and it takes time, but they are getting there and I'm seeing the progress they are doing with him like how they slowly stopped calling him "the bad robin" and stopped blaming for his death. He also getting more media exposure and people who don't read comics or even cares about them know know about him. Heck, he's actually extermly populer among them. 
> 
> Also, dude you are a walking DC Wikipedia. How about you share with us a postive things about Jason that you know? Or stories you like about him and start discussing them with us instead of wasting your time talking about things that piss you off.


Actually that's a very good point. For a character that was dead and done for so long Jason is doing remarkably well and achieved so much. The character is beloved by comic and non comic readers. He has lost the stigmata of the bad robin. Red Hood is cool and regarded as a badass. He is beloved by gamers and such I mean have you seen the demand for him in injustice. 

As a pop culture icon his value is very high and to the general public he is easily one of the best known, best liked and most recognised members of the family and that's something someone like Tim can't hold claim to despite being in publication for so long.

His book is very well written and keeps getting better and he is being handled by a writer who gets him and loves him. Jason is in a good place and doing very well indeed.

----------


## Aioros22

The demand in Injustice slays me. How longer is Ed Boon going to play the hype before he actually does it? C`mon man, I want to Gun-Fu Doomsday!

Yeah, all in all the fanbase shouldn`t act as victims. We had shit to deal with for 20 years or more but the return deal was absolutely sweet and right now Jason is in a place some others wish their favorite would be. That said, when the writting is bad you gotta point it out so they don`t sleep on the job. We`re the costumers. We can all agree that on the whole, moments aside, the Eternals were crap. 

That said Jason sitting nex to Alfred in the hospital is still something I`ll forever treasure. 

Thinking about stories that could positively expand the current formula, we all want "Te Cult" back to our boy`s mythos but would anyone want the Diplomath`s Son to be revisited? Perhaps explained? Or would that break the mystic that surrounds it?

----------


## Rise

Pointing out bad writing is good and all, but going on and on about it like a broken record is pretty annoying. It's not like they care about what we say here or even pay attention. 

You have a problem with the writing? Send letter to DC or use the social media and talk to the writers about what you didn't like, but be respectful while doing that.

----------


## dietrich

> The demand in Injustice slays me. How longer is Ed Boon going to play the hype before he actually does it? C`mon man, I want to Gun-Fu Doomsday!
> 
> Yeah, all in all the fanbase shouldn`t act as victims. We had shit to deal with for 20 years or more but the return deal was absolutely sweet and right now Jason is in a place some others wish their favorite would be. That said, when the writting is bad you gotta point it out so they don`t sleep on the job. We`re the costumers. We can all agree that on the whole, moments aside, the Eternals were crap. 
> 
> That said Jason sitting nex to Alfred in the hospital is still something I`ll forever treasure. 
> 
> Thinking about stories that could positively expand the current formula, we all want "Te Cult" back to our boy`s mythos but would anyone want the Diplomath`s Son to be revisited? Perhaps explained? Or would that break the mystic that surrounds it?


Personally I would rather that particular story not be revisited. I don't have a problem with Jason offing a rapist but I'm aware that some of his fans might do and as such if it is made clear that he did kill him that might not sit well with them. The ambiguity works for me cos a part of me like to think that he did push Felipe and that Jason will do the necessary things that Batman can't do.

That is part of what makes him stand from the for me. He is the Robin willing to go that extra step.

----------


## Assam

> The demand in Injustice slays me. How longer is Ed Boon going to play the hype before he actually does it? C`mon man, I want to Gun-Fu Doomsday!
> 
> Yeah, all in all the fanbase shouldn`t act as victims. We had shit to deal with for 20 years or more but the return deal was absolutely sweet and right now Jason is in a place some others wish their favorite would be. That said, when the writting is bad you gotta point it out so they don`t sleep on the job. We`re the costumers. We can all agree that on the whole, moments aside, the Eternals were crap. 
> 
> That said Jason sitting nex to Alfred in the hospital is still something I`ll forever treasure. 
> 
> Thinking about stories that could positively expand the current formula, we all want "Te Cult" back to our boy`s mythos but would anyone want the Diplomath`s Son to be revisited? Perhaps explained? Or would that break the mystic that surrounds it?


Gun-fuing Doomsday would be pretty shway...but at the same time, I'd rather be dodging everything he's got as Cass, or throwing waffles at him as Steph. 

If I had to come up with an ultimate for Jason,  I'd have it called, "How do you like it?", in which he beats the enemy with a crowbar, and blows them up.

----------


## REAL

I don't want them revisit the Diplomath`s Son and I prefer to keep it ambiguous because it's the reason that madeit good.

And man, I sure want to see how they will do Red Hood in Injustice.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> DC has a better editorial direction in Rebirth than they had in New 52. Their entire line has improved and RHATO's ex editor is giving us one of DC best books. New Super-Man. 
> 
> And I'm not denying that RHATO has improved because it did and Lobdell has learned from some of the mistakes he made and listen to the criticism which is admirable thing about him, but I'm just saying that he didn't change the way he write Jason. His character just evolved and matured.


Oh theres no doubt that Lobdell did all that as well. In fact, the vast improvement of a lot of titles is  probably also due to Rebirth being properly planned out with a definite direction it heading in. The New 52 simply didnt have that at all. Really all Im saying is a change of editors seemingly has also helped the book a great deal.

----------


## G-Potion

I sure want The Cult to be reintroduced to Jason's mythos. Jason could go a bit darker with it. Other than that, his time traveling the multiverse in Countdown also provides plenty of materials to play with. I also like Jason to team up with Supergirl again sometime. They were great in Batman/Superman annual and Supergirl #35.

----------


## Alycat

> The demand in Injustice slays me. How longer is Ed Boon going to play the hype before he actually does it? C`mon man, I want to Gun-Fu Doomsday!
> 
> Yeah, all in all the fanbase shouldn`t act as victims. We had shit to deal with for 20 years or more but the return deal was absolutely sweet and right now Jason is in a place some others wish their favorite would be. That said, when the writting is bad you gotta point it out so they don`t sleep on the job. We`re the costumers. We can all agree that on the whole, moments aside, the Eternals were crap. 
> 
> That said Jason sitting nex to Alfred in the hospital is still something I`ll forever treasure. 
> 
> Thinking about stories that could positively expand the current formula, we all want "Te Cult" back to our boy`s mythos but would anyone want the Diplomath`s Son to be revisited? Perhaps explained? Or would that break the mystic that surrounds it?


I'm so salty at the lack of Nightwing and Red Hood so far with Injustice while other Bat characters have already got the go ahead. I'd take both of them over Bane again.

----------


## G-Potion

> Pointing out bad writing is good and all, but going on and on about it like a broken record is pretty annoying. It's not like they care about what we say here or even pay attention. 
> 
> You have a problem with the writing? Send letter to DC or use the social media and talk to the writers about what you didn't like, but be respectful while doing that.




Seeing as current RHATO really knows how to please fans, I have the feeling someone in the team knows what's going on here as well as Tumblr. Based on their retweets, I think the whole team reads reviews as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm so salty at the lack of Nightwing and Red Hood so far with Injustice while other Bat characters have already got the go ahead. I'd take both of them over Bane again.


I say patience! No reason for Boon to have made so many Red Hood polls if he has no intention to have him in game. Result looks like this and Damian is still in. Would be pretty strange if Red Hood isn't. 

Capture.jpg

----------


## Alycat

> I say patience! No reason for Boon to have made so many Red Hood polls if he has no intention to have him in game. Result looks like this and Damian is still in. Would be pretty strange if Red Hood isn't.


Damian does have the advantage of being part of the story, where poor Nightwing and Red Hood don't. But that also makes them ripe for DLC.

----------


## dietrich

> I'm so salty at the lack of Nightwing and Red Hood so far with Injustice while other Bat characters have already got the go ahead. I'd take both of them over Bane again.


I can't see those two not being in especially Jason. I mean they did that poll right, Damian came in last and he still made it so i don't see how those two who are more in demand don't make it. It makes no sense.

Ahh snap.

----------


## Rise

> Seeing as current RHATO really knows how to please fans, I have the feeling someone in the team knows what's going on here as well as Tumblr. Based on their retweets, I think the whole team reads reviews as well.


I honestly doubt that anyone come here and I know that the writers do read the reviews. 

And they know what the tumblr crowd think because it's part of the social media and DC even has an official tumblr blog. Also, the tumblr crowd make sure that their voices are heard through twitter.

----------


## Rise

> I can't see those two not being in especially Jason. I mean they did that poll right, Damian came in last and he still made it so i don't see how those two who are more in demand don't make it. It makes no sense.
> 
> Ahh snap.


I think Red Hood is going to be a DLC because of the high demand for him (they aren't going to miss the chance to get some extra money from him) and Nightwing might end up being a skin for Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> I think Red Hood is going to be a DLC because of the high demand for him (they aren't going to miss the chance to get some extra money from him)


thats what what I'm also suspecting, and even if he one of the regular chars, he will probably be one of the last to be revealed, since they are probaly saving some of the bigger reveals for the end.

----------


## Orujo-man

Game industry and their DLC's...they hyped the fans with some characters and then boom! more DLC and more money. Practically they laugh right in the face of the consumer. No wonder why people prefers to download free and crack the game.

I remeber those times that when you bought a game, you bought a full game and not one part of the game. One thing it's sell an expansion, with a lot of content and other thing is pay more for one or two character and a few skins each time.

----------


## Aioros22

> I sure want The Cult to be reintroduced to Jason's mythos. Jason could go a bit darker with it. Other than that, his time traveling the multiverse in Countdown also provides plenty of materials to play with. I also like Jason to team up with Supergirl again sometime. They were great in Batman/Superman annual and Supergirl #35.


The Cult needs to be absolutely brought back as part of the mythos for both Bruce and Jason. It`s the one story where I feel Starlin got Bruce right down to admit that the way he chose to avenge his parents got more to do with battling his own fear than hope, and Jason, well, for everything he does there. It`s still easily in my top 3 darker bat stories ever. If Bane broke Batman by exaustion, Deacon broke Batman in sheer willpower. Scratch that, I actually think he went further, he made Batman his bitchslave whereas Bruce never bent his knee to the king of santa prisca. 

I wouldn`t mind some parallel mention to Last Crusade as well about a especific moment, just for kicks or a mention about Nocturna. 

As for the Diplomath`s Son I am on the side of letting the ending as it is _but_ I think it would be cool to read a character bit like Jason visiting the girl`s grave or something. That moment was part in shaping Jason`s harsher take on Justice over Law.

Never forgotten..

----------


## Aioros22

> Gun-fuing Doomsday would be pretty shway...but at the same time, I'd rather be dodging everything he's got as Cass, or throwing waffles at him as Steph. 
> 
> If I had to come up with an ultimate for Jason,  I'd have it called, "How do you like it?", in which he beats the enemy with a crowbar, and blows them up.


That would be sweet. I think they`do it in a heartbeat since it even falls in the gorish tone they like for finishes. 

I atually thought they had done Nigthwing for I2 but a walk to YouTube showed me that is still up in the air, likely because of the comic. What a waste.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh theres no doubt that Lobdell did all that as well. In fact, the vast improvement of a lot of titles is  probably also due to Rebirth being properly planned out with a definite direction it heading in. The New 52 simply didnt have that at all. Really all Im saying is a change of editors seemingly has also helped the book a great deal.


Yeah, a more focused editorial direction is right. You start this volume strong by setting Jason`s place in the family loud and clear by the big man himself.

----------


## Aahz

> As for the Diplomath`s Son I am on the side of letting the ending as it is _but_ I think it would be cool to read a character bit like Jason visiting the girl`s grave or something. That moment was part in shaping Jason`s harsher take on Justice over Law.


The ending should stay as it is, but it really should be brought back. Together with the Dumpster Slasher and Killing Joke it forms pretty explanation for Jasons morals.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. I recently realized that RHatO has a higher rating than the other Batman series, while these are all for 12 and older, RHatO is labled as for 15 and older. I don't really have the impression that there is really a difference between RHatO series, do I miss something?

----------


## Aioros22

It has got to be the tone of the book. It deals with moral questions that the others don`t. You just had Jason deciding whether to kill Bizarro or not and the later is a co-pilt of the title. 

I`m surprised that King`s Batman isn`t rated as high considering some monologue and theme exploration, mostly by Bruce and Bane. The last arc was called "I Am Suicide" after all.

----------


## Aahz

> It has got to be the tone of the book. It deals with moral questions that the others don`t. You just had Jason deciding whether to kill Bizarro or not and the later is a co-pilt of the title.


But it is imo not really darker than, Batman, Tec or Nightwing (at least the first arc). RHatO not on the level of Deathstroke (which is also 15+).

Or are the ratings more an indication of what the writers are allowed to do, and not what is really inside. Green Arrow is for example also a 15+ title, where I don't really get why it is has that rating (other titles with that rating I could find are Suicide Squad, Harley Quinn and Hellblazer).

----------


## Orujo-man

> But it is imo not really darker than, Batman, Tec or Nightwing (at least the first arc). RHatO not on the level of Deathstroke (which is also 15+).
> 
> Or are the ratings more an indication of what the writers are allowed to do, and not what is really inside. Green Arrow is for example also a 15+ title, where I don't really get why it is has that rating (other titles with that rating I could find are Suicide Squad, Harley Quinn and Hellblazer).


Actually it would be fine to me if the series became a little more explicit like Deathstroke. Something in the line of UTH arc or Hitman.

But I really doubt that happens, it wasn't Lobdell's style in this past years and I suppose DC tries to make Jason more accessible for all the readers.

----------


## Aioros22

> But it is imo not really darker than, Batman, Tec or Nightwing (at least the first arc). RHatO not on the level of Deathstroke (which is also 15+).
> 
> Or are the ratings more an indication of what the writers are allowed to do, and not what is really inside. Green Arrow is for example also a 15+ title, where I don't really get why it is has that rating (other titles with that rating I could find are Suicide Squad, Harley Quinn and Hellblazer).


The later if I had to guess. Batman can`t be pushed past a certain limit in his own book. You need Graphic Novels who may or not fit with the standard montly chronology for that. Meanwhile, characters like Green Arrow and Jason can. GA was IIRC a higher rating as well during the whole Grell era.

----------


## Alycat

> The later if I had to guess. Batman can`t be pushed past a certain limit in his own book. You need Graphic Novels who may or not fit with the standard montly chronology for that. Meanwhile, characters like Green Arrow and Jason can. GA was IIRC a higher rating as well during the whole Grell era.


Thats true. That reminds me about how distrubed some people were at the Jason torture scenes in Arkham Knight and Genesis. It was kinda brutal for Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> Thats true. That reminds me about how distrubed some people were at the Jason torture scenes in Arkham Knight and Genesis. It was kinda brutal for Batman.


Arkham Knight and Genesis are also only 12+.

----------


## Aahz

> Actually it would be fine to me if the series became a little more explicit like Deathstroke. Something in the line of UTH arc or Hitman.
> 
> But I really doubt that happens, it wasn't Lobdell's style in this past years and I suppose DC tries to make Jason more accessible for all the readers.


I think it is more Lobdell's style, if it was DCs intention they would probaly keep the Titale at the normal 12+ rating.

But I would be also not against something darker.

----------


## Aioros22

The game, where the torture scenes are, was rated M, wasn`t it.

----------


## Alycat

> The game, where the torture scenes are, was rated M, wasn`t it.


Yeah. Pretty sure the others were rated T.

----------


## Aahz

> The game, where the torture scenes are, was rated M, wasn`t it.


I was referring to the comics.

----------


## REAL

> Game industry and their DLC's...they hyped the fans with some characters and then boom! more DLC and more money. Practically they laugh right in the face of the consumer. No wonder why people prefers to download free and crack the game.
> 
> I remeber those times that when you bought a game, you bought a full game and not one part of the game. One thing it's sell an expansion, with a lot of content and other thing is pay more for one or two character and a few skins each time.


The consumers have themselves to blame for that. Their willingness to spend extra money on the DLCs when they first started with them is the reason why they keep doing them.

----------


## Aahz

> Aahz, buddy, you hate BRE so much?


I just have the feeling that stuff like B&RE, and in general the attitude of the Bat writers towards Jason is holding him back as character. Like you said he is quite popular outside of the comics, but as long as the writers keep pushing him in the role of the Robin who isn't good instead using the events to push him like the other Batfamily members and find a cooler niche for him as the family idiot, I don't see that happen. 

And I'm kind of tired to try to convince people that he wasn't a bad Robin, and than have the official writers basically do exactly the opposite.

----------


## REAL

That's your problem, man. You care so much about what others say. 

Just enjoy what you like and don't concerns yourself with what others think.

----------


## Orujo-man

> The consumers have themselves to blame for that. Their willingness to spend extra money on the DLCs when they first started with them is the reason why they keep doing them.


You are totally right. Sadly, I guess there will always be people that ends going through the hoop and we can't do nothing.

----------


## Alycat

I have no problem with fairly priced and well made DLC that extend the life of games I like. Things like fighting games or  Souls games work well with DLC, that I have no problem buying and people downloading for free aren't usually protesting DLC. The problem is that Warner often makes DLC that is so not worth it, like with what happened in Arkham Knight and those short bonus episodes. That was shameful. I don't think the same will happen with Injustice but  still.

----------


## dietrich

> I just have the feeling that stuff like B&RE, and in general the attitude of the Bat writers towards Jason is holding him back as character. Like you said he is quite popular outside of the comics, but as long as the writers keep pushing him in the role of the Robin who isn't good instead using the events to push him like the other Batfamily members and find a cooler niche for him as the family idiot, I don't see that happen. 
> 
> And I'm kind of tired to try to convince people that he wasn't a bad Robin, and than have the official writers basically do exactly the opposite.


I would say that anyone who still thinks to this day that Jason wasn't a good robin or who doesn't see the value of the character isn't gonna get it no matter how much they are told.

B&RE happened and that hasn't stopped his rise. The high demand for Red Hood in Injustice, the DCEU and YJ is happening even after Eternal. You should remember that.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I have no problem with fairly priced and well made DLC that extend the life of games I like. Things like fighting games or  Souls games work well with DLC, that I have no problem buying and people downloading for free aren't usually protesting DLC. The problem is that Warner often makes DLC that is so not worth it, like with what happened in Arkham Knight and those short bonus episodes. That was shameful. I don't think the same will happen with Injustice but  still.


I'm gladly pay expansions or DLC if their content is worth. My problem is with some of the actuals DLC is that only adds a little content or, to more indignation, if you acces of the game's scripts, the game already have that content and when you buy the DLC only active it, so is normal the sensation of be cheated.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm gladly pay expansions or DLC if their content is worth. My problem is with some of the actuals DLC is that only adds a little content or, to more indignation, if you acces of the game's scripts, the game already have that content and when you buy the DLC only active it, so is normal the sensation of be cheated.


Yep I agree. Like I bought the  season pass for Arkham Knight and the bonus Red Hood and Night wing episodes were insultingly short. I think only the added challenge maps and Seasons of Infamy were worth anything.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I just have the feeling that stuff like B&RE, and in general the attitude of the Bat writers towards Jason is holding him back as character. Like you said he is quite popular outside of the comics, but as long as the writers keep pushing him in the role of the Robin who isn't good instead using the events to push him like the other Batfamily members and find a cooler niche for him as the family idiot, I don't see that happen. 
> 
> And I'm kind of tired to try to convince people that he wasn't a bad Robin, and than have the official writers basically do exactly the opposite.


I think you have a fight you can't win, Aahz. In people's mind Jason was the bad Robin along 25-30 years (correct me if I wrong)

I think one interesting approach to Jason is make him more wise, due his past mistakes, experience and how he learned about them. Fits well with how he evolved these years, maybe he's not the best fighter or the smartest but if the writers do that well he can offers a diferent point of view in the Batfamily when they have a problem and they take an advantage of his complex character.

In this way he can has their moments of shine and be an important part in the plot without falling in the nonsense of the overpower or deus ex machina and without steal an excess protagonism to the other members.

He can have all the facets, be more serious, a few times an idiot or even tipsy, be competent in the fights and offers a diferent point of view that only he can offer, pretty much in the line of do what batman can't do, besides of kill if it's necessary.

It's only a wild idea and sadly I think is the most difficult to implement with success.

----------


## Aioros22

Office labeled him the "bad Robin" for 20 years because they could, because it was easy and because it helped to sell the new one. 

That`s past.  For every writer who still thinks that because reasons, there`s another who`s more the wiser. Move on.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Speaking of DLC, this supposedly comes from a Scholastic book about Superhero videogames over the years

----------


## Alycat

> Speaking of DLC, this supposedly comes from a Scholastic book about Superhero videogames over the years


I saw that too. Just waiting for a dlc trailer to drop at some point.

----------


## Kalethas31

jason look super hot

----------


## Assam

> jason look super hot


Jason is probably the hottest Robin. Dick and Steph are tied for 2nd. Tim's in last, and Damian doesn't get on the scoreboard because he's 13 you DickXDamian shipping weirdos!

----------


## Rise

> Speaking of DLC, this supposedly comes from a Scholastic book about Superhero videogames over the years


I don't even know why I'm excited for Red Hood appearing in I2 when I'm not planning to play it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

I was planning to buy it, but I decided not to when it becomes more clear that Jason is probably going to be a DLC. 

I'm not giving this greedy company my money.

----------


## Rise

That game companies for you.

Btw Jan, it's seems that I'm going to win our latest bet (again).  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## REAL

You already down to one book? Oh come on, I was just planning to drop Batman so only two going to be left.

----------


## Rise

Yup, it's just this month and WW is getting dropped. 

I have to admit that I'm suprised that I'm winning this bet since your interest in comics is getting lower every month compared to me.

----------


## REAL

What I can say, NSM has been delightful.

But I give it couple of months before I say goodbye to DC.

----------


## Rise

Besides RHATO, I am also saying goodbye to DC.

I guess it won't be long before we leave this forum.

----------


## REAL

End of era.

And I'm also keeping RH as long as Lobdell keep delivering, but that's it.

----------


## Rise

End of era indeed. 

Hey Jan, how was your experience with comics? Do you regret picking them up?

----------


## REAL

Nah, it was fun ride and I stayed longer than I thought. 

Rebirth was a great opportunity to try some characters like Superman, GA, Deathstroke....etc, but they weren't able to keep me interested.

----------


## Rise

Me neither, the problem is that they aren't offering anything new and it's feel like a big waste of time when recton keep happening all the time. 

Jan, do you notice how we keep flooding this thread with irrelevant topics? This alone will make people not miss us when we leave lol.

----------


## REAL

We sure do, but it's fun and going to be our last time anyway. Like, remember when argued about casting and Jared Leto joker theory? It was honestly the most fun I had in this board.

----------


## Rise

I do! I actually still laugh when I remember it.

I guess next month going to be our last. It's was fun arguing pointlessly with you, Jan. *salute*  :Cool:

----------


## REAL

Likewise, Jun. *salute*  :Cool:

----------


## Orujo-man

It's sad to read that you two are not more interested in DC apart of Red Hood, but I can understand it. At this moment I only follow 5 series of DC.

If you seek something new and different, I suggest you take a look in other editorials, european comic or even seinen manga (more adult and interesting than typical shonen).

There are always good stories and series for all tastes out there, you just need to find them.

----------


## Fergus

> Jason is probably the hottest Robin. Dick and Steph are tied for 2nd. Tim's in last, and Damian doesn't get on the scoreboard because he's 13 you DickXDamian shipping weirdos!


Blaspemy!!! Dick Grayson is the hottest DC male but Jason is very good looking especially under Rucafort. Damian mostly looks like a grumpy Pug.

Loved the last issue don't think I've ever seen Jason that pissed before.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Blaspemy!!! Dick Grayson is the hottest DC male but Jason is very good looking especially under Rucafort. Damian mostly looks like a grumpy Pug.
> 
> Loved the last issue don't think I've ever seen Jason that pissed before.


Actually I'm glad of the return of Soy to the series. Rocafort art is beautiful, sure, but I think Soy style fits better with the series.

About to DickxDamian thing...

----------


## dietrich

Drunk Jason was a joy to behold and made an issue that was pure retelling backstory fun just so long as it's done sparingly. He doesn't need the family lush label.

All the Batboys are good looking depending on who's drawing aside from Damian who default is pissed off youth.
I really like Rocafort his art is faltering and the current RHATO artist is also good. Is that Soy? He's good and I've noticed that he draws Jason's jacket like it's alive. The thing is always blowing in the wind or moving even when you can tel there no wind and when he's standing still.

It looks good though.

----------


## Orujo-man

> Drunk Jason was a joy to behold and made an issue that was pure retelling backstory fun just so long as it's done sparingly. He doesn't need the family lush label.
> 
> All the Batboys are good looking depending on who's drawing aside from Damian who default is pissed off youth.
> I really like Rocafort his art is faltering and the current RHATO artist is also good. Is that Soy? He's good and I've noticed that he draws Jason's jacket like it's alive. The thing is always blowing in the wind or moving even when you can tel there no wind and when he's standing still.
> 
> It looks good though.


Yeah, Soy was the artist of the Rebirth and the first six issues of RHATO.Apart of jacket issue, he made a few of minor mistakes. The most noticeable of them it was the scope of the pistol when Jason was aiming to Black Mask in issue #6. Appears and dissapears from nowhere.

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah, Soy was the artist of the Rebirth and the first six issues of RHATO.Apart of jacket issue, he made a few of minor mistakes. The most noticeable of them it was the scope of the pistol when Jason was aiming to Black Mask in issue #6. Appears and dissapears from nowhere.


I didn't even notice but I like the Jacket thing it adds an interesting visual aesthetic to Jason's look making it more dynamic instead of if it was drawn always lying flat.

Lobdell is really going from strength to strength and this current team feels more organic and fits better than the last.

----------


## Aioros22

> Blaspemy!!! Dick Grayson is the hottest DC male but Jason is very good looking especially under Rucafort. Damian mostly looks like a grumpy Pug.
> 
> Loved the last issue don't think I've ever seen Jason that pissed before.


Thy Grayson has no power here  :Cool:

----------


## Orujo-man

> I didn't even notice but I like the Jacket thing it adds an interesting visual aesthetic to Jason's look making it more dynamic instead of if it was drawn always lying flat.
> 
> Lobdell is really going from strength to strength and this current team feels more organic and fits better than the last.


My mistake, the scope issue was in the number #5.

I liked Roy and Kori in the former team, but I prefer the new. Bizarro is good and I love Artemis. She really grows on me and I love the interactions between Jason and her. Always liked bossy women with strong character in comics.

----------


## Aioros22

I have a thing for tall women so either is nice but the major advantage of Artemis is how unexplored she is, despite having been Wonder Woman once. It`s actually amazing when you think about how replacement characters (Jean Paul, Reign of Supermen, Kyle, Connor) and so on have been usually explored throught their runs.

----------


## Aahz

Does anybody know how close this version of Artemis origin to the pre crisis version is?

----------


## Alycat

> Blaspemy!!! Dick Grayson is the hottest DC male but Jason is very good looking especially under Rucafort. Damian mostly looks like a grumpy Pug.
> 
> Loved the last issue don't think I've ever seen Jason that pissed before.


They are both pretty attractive in similar but different ways. At least both have been having good runs of art. Just looking back at some 90s Nightwing or Jason appearances makes me wonder how people would've been as able to think of either as good looking sometimes with art that awful.

----------


## dietrich

Yeah love that these two new team mates have such unexplored potential. I mean Bizarro with Jason is a stroke of genius it offers the chance to explore a side of Jason that's rarely ever seen and the banter between him and Artemis is golden. This team is a win. Not familiar with the previous version of Artemis but I like that she is very different from Donna Tory.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I have a thing for tall women so either is nice but the major advantage of Artemis is how unexplored she is, despite having been Wonder Woman once. It`s actually amazing when you think about how replacement characters (Jean Paul, Reign of Supermen, Kyle, Connor) and so on have been usually explored throught their runs.


Yeah, I know what do you mean, it's like discover a new character, with not preconceived ideas. I enjoy how the characters interact with the others that I know and imagine all the possibilities. Like a kid with a new toy.

The problem with the replacement characters is that some fans always compare the replacement with the former character, so the fans have high expectations of what the replacement need to be, or directly they hate it instantly.

In the case of Artemis, It's been a long time since she was a Wonder Woman and it's something unfamiliar to us. Maybe a hardcore fan of Wonder Woman and her universe has a diferent opinion of the current characterization.

----------


## Aioros22

> Does anybody know how close this version of Artemis origin to the pre crisis version is?


Post Crisis. She was Bana-Mighdall, a tribe originally split from their mother Greece when they migrated to Egypt. The backstory was originally tied to the invasion of Heracles and his men and their acceptance in their numbers by Hyppolita, wheras her sister Antiope was against the idea. Antiope repels the invasion after Hyppolita and other amazos are chained, using a mask whose name I don`t recall which made everyone think Hyppolta was the one who defeated the men. 

Antiope later leaves with her own number because of mistrust. In the "Contest" Diana learns for the first time about her aunt (who looks exactly like her) and challenges her mother to unite the amazon tribles in the contest to decide if she gets to keep being Wonder Woman or not, of which she ends up losig to Artemis.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, dude you are a walking DC Wikipedia. How about you share with us a postive things about Jason that you know?


It is not really about Jason But:

- First Robin that died because he was Reckless: Richard Grayson jr
- First juvenile delinquent that was adopted by Bruce and died in a Robin Suit: Lance Bruner
- First Batfamily member who died and came Back as a Villain: Alfred Pennyworth
- heaviest Smoker in the Batfamily: Probaly Bruce (or James Gordon if you count him)
- First Robin of the Batfamily who was trained as Assassin after being fired by Batman: Dick Grayson
- First Robin of that who feared that Bruce would prefer an other partner over him: Dick Grayson (iirc at least 3 different occasions)

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'd like to see Lance Bruner come back in a story.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 9 variant

----------


## Aioros22

Ahh the Claudo Castellini/Barrie Windsor Smith style hybrid. Jason is totally action figure posed in this one  :Cool:  

Artemis axe strikes me a bit funny here, thought.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #11
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“Who is Artemis?” finale! The Dark Trinity faces a bigger threat than ever before, with thousands of lives hanging in the balance! After Akila resurrects an army of Amazon warriors aimed at destroying an entire country, Artemis is given a choice—fulfill her destiny as the champion of Bana-Mighdall, or stand by her new allies, Red Hood and Bizarro?
On sale JUNE 14 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+



That was fast

----------


## Assam

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #11
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Who is Artemis?” finale! The Dark Trinity faces a bigger threat than ever before, with thousands of lives hanging in the balance! After Akila resurrects an army of Amazon warriors aimed at destroying an entire country, Artemis is given a choice—fulfill her destiny as the champion of Bana-Mighdall, or stand by her new allies, Red Hood and Bizarro?
> On sale JUNE 14 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> 
> 
> That was fast


Where is everyone finding the June solicits???

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Where is everyone finding the June solicits???


https://twitter.com/Newsarama/status/843930211578249216

Also, this bit on Injustice's solict caught my eye




> INJUSTICE 2 #3
> Written by TOM TAYLOR • Art by DANIEL SAMPERE and JUAN ALBARRAN
> Cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> A raid on Stryker’s Prison by a newly formed Suicide Squad does the unthinkable and releases Superman from his cell. Meanwhile, Harley Quinn encounters someone she never expected to see again—and *Damian Wayne is shocked by the appearance of someone he never knew existed.*
> On sale JUNE 7 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T • DIGITAL FIRST
> 
> INJUSTICE 2 #4
> Written by TOM TAYLOR • Art by BRUNO REDONDO and JUAN ALBARRAN
> Covers by BRUNO REDONDO
> ...


Jason?

----------


## Aahz

> That was fast


I like it when they keep the stories short. Not every arc needs to be 6 issues long.




> Jason?


Lance Bruner? John Vance ? Roger Burnim Jr. ? Aunt Agatha ? Vanderveer Wayne ? 

(Maybe I should do an Appreciation thread for Obscure Batfamily members.)

----------


## AJpyro

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #11
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Who is Artemis?” finale! The Dark Trinity faces a bigger threat than ever before, with thousands of lives hanging in the balance! After Akila resurrects an army of Amazon warriors aimed at destroying an entire country, Artemis is given a choice—fulfill her destiny as the champion of Bana-Mighdall, or stand by her new allies, Red Hood and Bizarro?
> On sale JUNE 14 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> 
> 
> That was fast


Neat. I wonder what tricks Jay comes up with to get the better of Artemis.

----------


## Aioros22

> I like it when they keep the stories short. Not every arc needs to be 6 issues long.
> 
> Lance Bruner? John Vance ? Roger Burnim Jr. ? Aunt Agatha ? Vanderveer Wayne ? 
> 
> (Maybe I should do an Appreciation thread for Obscure Batfamily members.)


Lance Bruner for First Ally, actually  :Wink:  

The Injustice mention can be Jason. I love the idea of an older Jay meeting Damian. 

"A..rock you say? Not enough sarcasm for that one". 

Incidentally, this might be the first time Rocafort seems to be drawing the helmet without his mouthpiece. Noice!

----------


## Orujo-man

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #11
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY • Cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT • Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Who is Artemis?” finale! The Dark Trinity faces a bigger threat than ever before, with thousands of lives hanging in the balance! After Akila resurrects an army of Amazon warriors aimed at destroying an entire country, Artemis is given a choice—fulfill her destiny as the champion of Bana-Mighdall, or stand by her new allies, Red Hood and Bizarro?
> On sale JUNE 14 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> 
> 
> That was fast


That was a great cover, but I must tell you, when I see the helmet in Rocafort's art without the mouth it seems weird. In my mind I associate the mouth with Rocafort I suppose.

So, I suppose all we know how the confrontation ends, unless a unexpected surprise of Lobdell.

How Jason will fight with Artemis? He will uses dirty tricks like the taser, will try to get into Artemis' mind... maybe the All-Blades? (I doubt this one)

----------


## Aahz

> Lance Bruner for First Ally, actually


Historically it should be John Vance aka Batman Jr.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Now I'm sad we never got Anime Protagonist Jason

----------


## Orujo-man

> Now I'm sad we never got Anime Protagonist Jason


At least we have the movie of Batman: Under the Red Hood. Which anime studio would you choose to make an animated movie of Jason?

----------


## Korath

> That was a great cover, but I must tell you, when I see the helmet in Rocafort's art without the mouth it seems weird. In my mind I associate the mouth with Rocafort I suppose.
> 
> So, I suppose all we know how the confrontation ends, unless a unexpected surprise of Lobdell.
> 
> How Jason will fight with Artemis? He will uses dirty tricks like the taser, will try to get into Artemis' mind... maybe the All-Blades? (I doubt this one)


I think he'll switch to fight Akila with the All-blades and leave Artemis to Bizarro. i mean, just look at Akila. if it isn't screaming "evil thingy", I don't know what does.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I think he'll switch to fight Akila with the All-blades and leave Artemis to Bizarro. i mean, just look at Akila. if it isn't screaming "evil thingy", I don't know what does.


Well, is an option, but I have doubts. I mean depends if Akila wields the Bow of Ra or not. I not sure if Jason can handle the former Shim-Tar with that kind of weapon and survive. Artemis beat Jason's ass without any weapon.

Apart, I think a fight between Jason and Artemis adds more emotional charge than Artemis vs Bizarro, after all, Jason is the leader of the team and according to the advance of the issue Artemis has to decide if stays with her new team or not.

----------


## G-Potion

Saw this on Tumblr: https://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumb...028/big-rumors




> *Big Rumors*
> 4chan has been causing some noise with big rumors of big changes coming to DC. Ive decided to take a look at what theyre saying and share my opinion.
> 
> 1)      Dark Days is the mysterious Metal event Scott Snyder has been teasing hell do with Greg Capulo. It will bring characters from alternate Universes to Prime DC Earth, some of which will try to take it over. Some of them will stick around after the event and be featured in books from September, when every title will get a one-shot setting up new status quo after one year time skip.  Pretty standard, I could buy this one.
> 
> 2)      One of the characters that stick around will be Superboy Prime, whom Clark will try to redeem on the pages of Superman.  Risky move since its Prime but I could totally see Superman try to redeem him.
> 
> 3)      We will see the return of JSA with Power Girl, Jay Garrick, Red Tornado, Alan Scott and Johnny Thunder, in a new book by Dan Abnett  Will those be Earth-2 characters back to the Prime Earth or Pre-Flashpoint versions?
> 
> ...

----------


## Powertool

If item #8 actually comes true, i.e. if RHATO v2 doesn't even reach half the issue count of RHATO v1, then it's time to acknwledge one of the most self-evident truths of comic books: producing quality books has by now become a pointless effort.

Let alone that I already know that I'll absolutely despise Artemis' characterisation in any comic written by Greg "Metternich had a point" Rucka.

----------


## Aioros22

I wouldn`t mind a solo but not at the expense of it. I think there`s little chance of that happening because it`s not selling badly and is critically praised. Besides, it`s why too soon for them to use Bizarro and Artemis elsewhere when Loedbell has just started using them but I venture any interest would ironically steem from the usage in the book. So no. 

Deathstroke gone missing after a run by Priest? No.

----------


## Pohzee

Pretty much debunked by Snyder's tweet that there will be no crippling.

----------


## G-Potion

I guess those rumors didn't show up all at once so one or a few items could still be true despite Snyder's tweets. That said, as much as I love a solo for Jason, this is really not worth exchanging as the current Outlaws is so good and has a clear direction.

----------


## Aioros22

> Pretty much debunked by Snyder's tweet that there will be no crippling.


If Snyder ain`t the one making waves with the rumors, it ain`t true  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

> Saw this on Tumblr: https://hellyeahteensuperheroes.tumb...028/big-rumors


I see this rumors today... and create one topic because I am not expert in comics.. Something CRAZY for me can be TRUE.

*This is false*.

The outlaws are very good... Is stupid separate these 3 now..

----------


## JasonTodd428

Honestly between them saying the Outlaws are going to break up with Artemis and Bizzaro going back to their respective lines and #9 I have to conclude that this is fake or someones idea of an April Fools Day joke.

----------


## Orujo-man

Like I said in the other post, this is probably fake. 4chan and Tumblr have never been particularly reliable sites. Also the idea of that Artemis will leave the book is unacceptable. I enjoy her interactions with Jason so much.

----------


## Powertool

> Honestly between them saying the Outlaws are going to break up with Artemis and Bizzaro going back to their respective lines and #9 I have to conclude that this is fake or someone’s idea of an April Fool’s Day joke.


Then someone really should have taken a closer look to their calendar since it's just 03/29!  :Stick Out Tongue:  Or brought their sense of humour to customer support since it's clearly malfunctioning.  :Stick Out Tongue:   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## AJpyro

I'm just gonna ignore that rumor. I just got this team dangit!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I guess those rumors didn't show up all at once so one or a few items could still be true despite Snyder's tweets. That said, as much as I love a solo for Jason, this is really not worth exchanging as the current Outlaws is so good and has a clear direction.


All of them showed up on the same thread at 4chan, the first two posts in fact. So yeah, total bunk.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I guess those rumors didn't show up all at once so one or a few items could still be true despite Snyder's tweets. That said, as much as I love a solo for Jason, this is really not worth exchanging as the current Outlaws is so good and has a clear direction.


I'm thinking it's false myself given the clear direction and the quality of the current RHATO book. I wouldn't say no to a solo book for Jason but it certainly doesn't have to come at the expense of his team book. Nightwing and Batman do just fine with having both a solo and a team book after all. I also don't think Red Hood fans would say "no" to his having both. The more Red Hood the better IMO.

----------


## AJpyro

How about a solo miniseries ala Atomic Robo? It'd be nice to see what Jay been up to in the wider DC.

----------


## Orujo-man

> I'm thinking it's false myself given the clear direction and the quality of the current RHATO book. I wouldn't say no to a solo book for Jason but it certainly doesn't have to come at the expense of his team book. Nightwing and Batman do just fine with having both a solo and a team book after all. I also don't think Red Hood fans would say "no" to his having both. The more Red Hood the better IMO.


Having two books with Jason would be wonderful, no doubt. A solo book like The Punisher, but without being so brutal as Ennis' MAX run. Something similar to the Futures End issue. But I not sure about how this fits in his relations with the Bat Family.

----------


## Aioros22

You can use a similar concept with what he`s got now where they may interact without a need to make it an event. You just need to basically let him mostly go Lone Wolf. While Outlaws could tag the superhero storylines, a solo of this sort could tag the underground and other type of crime. 

A little bit In The Life of The Red Hood.

----------


## Assam

> How about a solo miniseries ala Atomic Robo? It'd be nice to see what Jay been up to in the wider DC.


Eyyy! A fellow fan of Atomic Robo! It's one of my favorite non-DC Comics.

----------


## AJpyro

> Eyyy! A fellow fan of Atomic Robo! It's one of my favorite non-DC Comics.


Saving the world...WITH SCIENCE!!

----------


## Aahz

I would like to see Jason getting finally a solo (at best in combination with a solid push from the other Battitles) once his current team disbands, but I think at the moment it's to early, they sgould give the current team at least 2-3 years imo, before breaking it up.

----------


## okiedokiewo

Some nice Red Hood art from Tyler Kirkham at WonderCon.

https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...73158051389440

https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...55650552061952

https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...92853918359553

----------


## adrikito

> some nice red hood art from tyler kirkham at wondercon.
> 
> https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...73158051389440
> 
> https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...55650552061952
> 
> https://twitter.com/tylerkirkhamart/...92853918359553


i liked.  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

Please make Salt Jay an actual variant choice or have him him cook something for Bizarro ala Lil`Gotham in one issue closing.

----------


## Aahz

After "I am Bane" and the Eternals I think it is really time that Jason gets his revenge on Bane.  :Mad: 

Maybe I should really stop reading Jasons Appearences in Batfamily titles, I'm allways hoping that they finally treat him right, but somehow the writers mange to make everytime even more dispointzing than the last time.

Hopefully he is in the next Injustice comic series, in the out of continuity stuff he gets for some reason a way better treatment.

----------


## Aioros22

The way King propped him as, only Batman would get the headbutt. Everyone else was there to set the stage. 

I`m more interested in the way we`ll read for the first time, Jason`s own account on what happened rather than someone else`s.

----------


## Aioros22

Annnnd funnily enough  :Big Grin: 


a2a83c16d4abd5332ef1e9b50a459cef.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

> Hopefully he is in the next Injustice comic series, in the out of continuity stuff he gets for some reason a way better treatment.


Any new news regarding either the comic season or I2?

----------


## Aahz

> Any new news regarding either the comic season or I2?


Not when it comes to Jason.

----------


## Alycat

I'm kinda mad that we get all these  minor bat characters for IJ but Jason and Dick will probably be DLC.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm kinda mad that we get all these  minor bat characters for IJ but Jason and Dick will probably be DLC.


The Batcharcters are more popular than almost everybody except for the iconic Justice League members.

----------


## Aioros22

I can almost see why they would do it. It`s malicious but the nature of the game has changed. 

If you want to give gamers the incentive for a considerable DLC buy, you do it with characters that have been teased since day one and that the fanbase is dying to play with.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Go tell Soy how do you like Jason's jacket!

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/850530881252990976

----------


## G-Potion

> Go tell Soy how do you like Jason's jacket!
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/850530881252990976


Important matter is important. Arms, of course.

----------


## Aioros22

Why alienate the service? Keep showing the goods Jay  :Cool: 

I like them rolled up as it is, it shows that rebellious side of not conforming to standard Fashion  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

C4LX8kXUoAEvleL.jpg

You know, with the recent talk about the Cult in the other thread and how the timeline is now expanding to fit the sequel to Year Zero, would anyone think Loedbell and co could make a in-between arc or even a flashback story inside the current one about his first year doning the costume and the appearances of both Deacon and Croc? 

Deacon is self explanatory and I feel Croc would be great to fit in those years in Gotham mythos. He was the one who killed Jason`s parents Pre Crisis and whereas he was replaced in the Post chronology by Two Face I recently also re-read Dixon`s Nigthwing Year One where Croc was reset as Jason`s first case.

----------


## Aahz

> You know, with the recent talk about the Cult in the other thread and how the timeline is now expanding to fit the sequel to Year Zero, would anyone think Loedbell and co could make a in-between arc or even a flashback story inside the current one about his first year doning the costume and the appearances of both Deacon and Croc? 
> 
> Deacon is self explanatory and I feel Croc would be great to fit in those years in Gotham mythos. He was the one who killed Jason`s parents Pre Crisis and whereas he was replaced in the Post chronology by Two Face I recently also re-read Dixon`s Nigthwing Year One where Croc was reset as Jason`s first case.


I would really like to see a story about Jason at the peak of is Robin career. 

Btw. that Croc started during Jasons time as Robin is imo still canon in the new 52, at least they had Jason appear as Robin in Crocs villains month issue.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, that`s really nice. I don`t think I got any of those Villains Month issue aside Ocean Master. 

Did they interact?

----------


## Aahz

> Did they interact?


Jason told him that he should consider to give up the "brain" thing and stick to "muscle".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That by the way was a terrible way to use Jason. 

Honestly at this point I'm not interested on getting more focus on his time as Robin. That's water under the bridge, let's focus on the present.

----------


## Aioros22

It seems the usual snarky banter. I don`t see what is so terrible for a first impression basis. 

I`m on the firm side of caring about the Now over anything but I don`t believe in only doing one thing right and throwing everything out. Characters like Jason who are part of a storied legacy can benefit from increasing backstories for the new audiences. That`s one of the things the reboot has been giving us in general terms. So why not tackle that in a more especific direction every now and then?

One story of him working on something that he first faced as Robin is classic expanded narrative.

----------


## Aioros22

Talk about finding things on a roll! Was anybody even following the Beware The Batman comic? It was eventually cancelled early with the show`s demise as it was about to get interesting with a Killer Croc and a certain street urchin...


http://www.dadsbigplan.com/2014/04/c...-the-batman-6/

----------


## yagha

So, apparently the new RHatO claims that the Joker killed Jason in Qurac?

I really wish they hadn't kept the old, outlandish premise of Jason being lured to another country to get killed. It just doesn't jive with the Robin that started off as a Gotham street urchin, imo, and they should have just taken the Miller approach of him just being murdered in Gotham City. It's really not that hard.

Or at least they could have changed it up a bit? Like him being killed on a Teen Titans mission?

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t feel that being Killed in a wharehouse in Gotham, Qurac or Ethiopia really makes the difference. It happened in a warn torn location because of the bigger story. He wasn`t lured to another country, he went looking for someone he didn`t have in Gotham. I`m looking forward to see what other details they will take or add up. 

The way Miller did it fit his narrative (and well) of a story already told and TT are too busy trying to make their timeline work as it is.

----------


## yagha

Come to think of it, TDKR was published _before_ Jason's death in ADitF.

I wonder how Miller originally envisioned the second Robin dying? He definitely toed the line with the Joker being the killer in The Last Crusade, but I wonder what he might've had in mind back in 1986.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Talk about finding things on a roll! Was anybody even following the Beware The Batman comic? It was eventually cancelled early with the show`s demise as it was about to get interesting with a Killer Croc and a certain street urchin...
> 
> 
> http://www.dadsbigplan.com/2014/04/c...-the-batman-6/


I was hoping the show would have used him as Robin instead of Tim or Dick.

----------


## RedQueen

yeah I wish they somehow transferred Jason's death to somewhere in Gotham or at least in america. To me it would be more of a personal effect if it was in Gotham. I'm don't mind Jason's "death" in Arkham Knight, cause to me that is a much more easier way to do Jason being "dead" and then coming back as red hood than trying to incorporate lazarus pit stuff, but props to them if they can pull that off in the movies.

----------


## yagha

Speaking of Arkham Knight, I just remembered a question that I wanted to ask here:

So Batman receives the tape of Jason getting 'shot' six months after his disappearance, but earlier during on the Joker had shown Jason pictures of Tim Drake to taunt him. So, what, Jason disappears one day, Batman can't find him and just gives up _with no evidence whatsoever_? Then gets a new Robin and some time later the tape in the mail?

I'm not the biggest fan of the Arkham series, but this just seems beyond ridiculous.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> Talk about finding things on a roll! Was anybody even following the Beware The Batman comic? It was eventually cancelled early with the show`s demise as it was about to get interesting with a Killer Croc and a certain street urchin...
> 
> 
> http://www.dadsbigplan.com/2014/04/c...-the-batman-6/


It was a fun comic. Some of the issues were kinda dull and had continuity errors, but when they got good, they were good. 

The artist, Luciano Vecchio, mentioned that the kid was only supposed to resemble Jason as a nod to him. Though considering the show has ended, I'm headcannoning him as being him. 




> I was hoping the show would have used him as Robin instead of Tim or Dick.


Same. It would fit with the show's MO of doing different things (unknown enemies, a more involved Alfred, a jerkass Harvey Dent, Barbara as Oracle instead of Batgirl, etc.).

----------


## Aahz

> The artist, Luciano Vecchio, mentioned that the kid was only supposed to resemble Jason as a nod to him. Though considering the show has ended, I'm headcannoning him as being him.


In my personal Head canon this kid is Jason, and "Tim Quan" (the kid that got hiself tranformed into a Man-Bat in an earlier issue) is the Tim Drake of this Universe.

----------


## Red obin

I saw stuff recently about Jason post-DoTF and that he was going to be disfigured permanently and then I was reading Batman #17 and it looks as though it was a late change as in that Jason kept his Bandages on his face in the main story, but not in the epilogue. Just some interesting but pointless stuff.

red-hood.jpg
url1.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

> It was a fun comic. Some of the issues were kinda dull and had continuity errors, but when they got good, they were good. The artist, Luciano Vecchio, mentioned that the kid was only supposed to resemble Jason as a nod to him. Though considering the show has ended, I'm headcannoning him as being him.


Love finding out about these sorta things. I`m making it part of my headcanon now. Not only it is a clear nod, down to cloathes and hair you have him using a knive in one of these panels. 




> Same. It would fit with the show's MO of doing different things (unknown enemies, a more involved Alfred, a jerkass Harvey Dent, Barbara as Oracle instead of Batgirl, etc.).


I can always respect somehing diffferent. 

The Tim Quan bit is hilarious.

----------


## Aioros22

> yeah I wish they somehow transferred Jason's death to somewhere in Gotham or at least in america. To me it would be more of a personal effect if it was in Gotham. I'm don't mind Jason's "death" in Arkham Knight, cause to me that is a much more easier way to do Jason being "dead" and then coming back as red hood than trying to incorporate lazarus pit stuff, but props to them if they can pull that off in the movies.


I like the whole 3-way so far: Warn torn location, Miller`s Gotham dead end and Ak`s pshycological torture and they all fit the bigger stories. In the case of the original take the main reason I guess it wouldn`t be Gotham was that Death In The Family suceeds The Killing Joke. After what happens with Barbara the Joker was way too hot for either Gordon and the superhero commmunity that wanted to get their hands on him. He was laying low to disappear for awhile and went somewhere else incognito. 

Really excited to see what the creative team has in mind. While others have talked about it, this is the first time we`ll read it from Jay`s first person narration. I`m almost sure they will include his real mother in the chase, a detail that has been neglected ever since.

----------


## Aioros22

> Speaking of Arkham Knight, I just remembered a question that I wanted to ask here:
> 
> So Batman receives the tape of Jason getting 'shot' six months after his disappearance, but earlier during on the Joker had shown Jason pictures of Tim Drake to taunt him. So, what, Jason disappears one day, Batman can't find him and just gives up _with no evidence whatsoever_? Then gets a new Robin and some time later the tape in the mail?
> 
> I'm not the biggest fan of the Arkham series, but this just seems beyond ridiculous.


There`s the thing abot Batman knowing the Joker too well to not believe him. If I recall, in the actual comics, a Lonely Place of Dying (introduction of Drake) didn`t happen that long affter DITF but that period in between isn`t explored in the Knight verse for us to know how Drake got the role (I admit I haven`t played the whole series, so maybe it was..?). The only thing I recall from another game (A:City I think) in the series is Tim tracking Joker to a funhouse and him mocking him about what happened to Jason. 

But yeah, it`s the game`s timeline main plothole when you put it that way. 

Hey, a funhouse in the Gotham limits...there`s macabre.

----------


## Aahz

> There`s the thing abot Batman knowing the Joker too well to not believe him. If I recall, in the actual comics, a Lonely Place of Dying (introduction of Drake) didn`t happen that long affter DITF but that period in between isn`t explored in the Knight verse for us to know how Drake got the role (I admit I haven`t played the whole series, so maybe it was..?). The only thing I recall from another game (A:City I think) in the series is Tim tracking Joker to a funhouse and him mocking him about what happened to Jason.


a Lonely Place of Dying  was iirc set just a few month after DitF.
With the Arkham verse and the time line there is anyway the problem that before Arkham Knight they never reall explored what happened wit Jason.

And if you look at the comics things are anyway a little bit wired when it comes to Tim, you can see him allready chat with Barbara in her origin story and later in the Arkham Knight comics he is allready a heigh school teacher and and he marries Barbara, so it seems that he is at least Jasons age or even older.

----------


## Aioros22

Was it only really a month? Geezz, did that backtracted real fast Denis  :Big Grin: 

It seems that in the Arkham verse, Tim was already an aquaintance with the rest throught Barbara. I can buy a six month period when he helps the rest trying to find out what happened to Jason but eventually finding no clues left by the Joker. Him becoming Robin doesn`t strike me as lack of respect since it was Joker who played out the whole "he replaced you angle" over and over to torment and condition Jason. 

Tim could have either become Robin until evidence pop up and then stayed with everyone slowly accepting the likability of the outcome. Again, something that could have been easily expanded with dialogue along the series and a less tigh timeline. DC related characters and timelines have series marital issues. 

Still is a great game, so don`t let that spoil the fun.

----------


## Aahz

> Was it only really a month?


No several months, it is not really defined in the comics.
If you go by later established dates, Jason died in April (but that was only established after UtRH) and Tim became Robin arround christmas after 6 month of training, you end up with roughly 2 month.

----------


## Aioros22

I only ever read A Lonely Place in trade once and had a blank of the publication data. Batman#440 is where it starts, right? Jason dies in #429, so yeah 11 issues in between. 

I first meant publication wise but true enough in-story Tim shows up real soon with meeting Dick first.

----------


## Aioros22

> I saw stuff recently about Jason post-DoTF and that he was going to be disfigured permanently and then I was reading Batman #17 and it looks as though it was a late change as in that Jason kept his Bandages on his face in the main story, but not in the epilogue. Just some interesting but pointless stuff


Hard to tell how serious they were. That`s the coolest set of covers of the original volume and I could see where they could go with it. I`m guessing they wanted to have a feel of how the fanbase felt beforehand (but a bit silly expecting anyone riding along with it after one arc or something). 

It still works in a simbolic manner, regardless of what ideas they had. It screams acid scars quite visually. I bet that`s what the Office said to themselves.

----------


## Aioros22

http://lokiescape.deviantart.com/art...oard-324748483

----------


## Aioros22

http://howtocarveroastunicorn.blogsp...g-justice.html

img-pb_young_justice__robin.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> http://howtocarveroastunicorn.blogsp...g-justice.html
> 
> img-pb_young_justice__robin.jpg


Why are you posting a picture of Dick?

----------


## Aahz

> I only ever read A Lonely Place in trade once and had a blank of the publication data. Batman#440 is where it starts, right? Jason dies in #429, so yeah 11 issues in between. 
> 
> I first meant publication wise but true enough in-story Tim shows up real soon with meeting Dick first.


Technically Jason died allready in Batman #427 and Tims first appearence (as little kid in a flashback) was in Batman #436.

In Universe the only real in info in A Lonley Place of Dying is that Two face stats that Roin was hiding for Months when he encounters Tim in costume in Batman #442.

It was anyway in and out of Universe quite soon after Jasons Death.

It would have of couse been interstin to see the Arkham Verse version of Tim's origin to, to really see how Batman made him Robin that fast. But they never did him and and Dick, only Jason and Barbara.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why are you posting a picture of Dick?


Because I thought it was this dude

tumblr_mb6v87Y8FU1qh75xeo7_500.jpg

Which shows how long I`ve watched it to not remember the difference in the hairdo.

----------


## Aahz

> That by the way was a terrible way to use Jason.


It wasn't that great but it wasn't that bad.





> Honestly at this point I'm not interested on getting more focus on his time as Robin. That's water under the bridge, let's focus on the present.


I would like just see one good modern take on his time as Robin, and not just only flashbacks.

----------


## Aioros22

Characters of major franchises like Batman benefit greatly of expanded backstories. While the focus on Jason should be the Now and beyond (compared to say Tim, whose focus on fanbase seems to be the good ol`days), some unique stories of him as Robin would both expand his mythos and the legacy. It`s a win-win, you don`t lose anything by tackling it if you wish. 

Neither view is wrong, IMO but I think it`s clear some don`t trust the current crop of writers with that sort of material.

----------


## Aahz

> Characters of major franchises like Batman benefit greatly of expanded backstories. While the focus on Jason should be the Now and beyond (compared to say Tim, whose focus on fanbase seems to be the good ol`days), some unique stories of him as Robin would both expand his mythos and the legacy. It`s a win-win, you don`t lose anything by tackling it if you wish.


The Tim fanbase wants mostly his history restored, or at least the important parts. And since thats anyway something thats done with other characters in rebirth (Dick got for exapmple the Titans and Blüdhaven back), imo something that could be done.

The problem in Jasons case is that he doesn't have much history as Robin, the writing was even inconsitent back than, and most of this stuff is feels really dated. There I would like Jason to get some bigger modern (in continuity) story that focuses on him as Robin, but you would need of course the right writer for that. Idealy I would like to get him a mini like Dicks "Robin: Year One" or lke the ones Tim had before he got an ongoing, but something like an Annual is probaly more realistic.




> Neither view is wrong, IMO but I think it`s clear some don`t trust the current crop of writers with that sort of material.


I have in genral no trust in the current Bat-office-writers when it comes to Jason ...

----------


## Aioros22

Or you know....backstories in a Strip format like the one in RHAA  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> Annnnd funnily enough

----------


## Aioros22

I like the subtil use of his different costumes. The bucket was Golden Age corny but the rest with the jacket was pretty nice. 

Still can`t figure out who the artist is, though. There`s a bit of Coipel in it but it isn`t it..

----------


## Aahz

> I like the subtil use of his different costumes. The bucket was Golden Age corny but the rest with the jacket was pretty nice. 
> 
> Still can`t figure out who the artist is, though. There`s a bit of Coipel in it but it isn`t it..


If you are refering to the pictures in my previous post, they are from Marcus To.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

Hey, nice, really nice!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

batman_arkham_knight_jason_todd_red_hood_jacket.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

http://jarein.deviantart.com/art/Red...-2-0-384125715

red_hood___redesign_2_0_by_jarein-d6cp5ar.jpg

----------


## AJpyro

> 


Nice new stuff.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I like how bulky Marcus makes Jason. Closer to how he should look in my opinion.

----------


## Aahz

> I like how bulky Marcus makes Jason. Closer to how he should look in my opinion.


Yeah, what I also like about his art is that the Robins really look different when he draws them, with some other artists they are without costume really undistiguishable.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

He draws Jason too old though.

Personally I find Rocafort as the one artist that draws the perfect Jason with Soy a close second.

----------


## Aioros22

Is it the white stripe? He looks standard agey Jason to me.

This is probably my personal "favorite" Jason picture in terms of depiction

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aahz

jason.jpg

jason_todd_red_hood_by_jasontodd1fan-d9k7an2.jpg

tumblr_o1mzu4byMi1ujsovfo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Aahz

tumblr_npy8gtlyC91swqrnao1_1280.jpg

tumblr_oh9ib7DOw71tgo8o0o1_500.jpg

tumblr_o82xye5mnA1smuj7vo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Aahz

And even if I dislike the red hair and the J scar I h´think this one looks also not bad

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Neat, first direct reference to Jason on the Injustice-verse

----------


## Aahz

> Neat, first direct reference to Jason on the Injustice-verse


Where does this come from?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The first issue of the comic that was released today.

----------


## Aahz

> The first issue of the comic that was released today.


Oh I thought the series would start next month.

----------


## Alycat

That pic of Damian in the cell made me laugh the hardest when reading that issue.Also I guess Superman never told Bruce where he put Tim. Also the wording makes it sound like Jason hasn't come back yet or at least they don't if he's back yet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is it the white stripe? He looks standard agey Jason to me.
> 
> This is probably my personal "favorite" Jason picture in terms of depiction


That's one of my favorites as well. I'm going to have to make an avatar with that one at some point.

----------


## Cuthbert

JasonToddBatman&Robin.jpg

I actually really liked this interpretation of Jason Todd that was used in his second arc in Batman and Robin.  I thought his personality and his physique was spot on.  He had charm and humor but was also clearly dangerous and slightly unhinged.  Admittedly, his the pill costume was pretty dumb and the second one wasn't great either.

----------


## Aioros22

> That pic of Damian in the cell made me laugh the hardest when reading that issue.Also I guess Superman never told Bruce where he put Tim. Also the wording makes it sound like Jason hasn't come back yet or at least they don't if he's back yet.


They gotta play the mistery that way, otherwise Damian would have met him and I think the idea they`re selling is that he never did.

----------


## Aioros22

> JasonToddBatman&Robin.jpg
> 
> I actually really liked this interpretation of Jason Todd that was used in his second arc in Batman and Robin.  I thought his personality and his physique was spot on.  He had charm and humor but was also clearly dangerous and slightly unhinged.  Admittedly, his the pill costume was pretty dumb and the second one wasn't great either.


The costume and color pallete were more than fine. What made it misplaced for Jason were golden age elements used in a character last seen in Animal Man called Red Mask. Same chest insígnia, same cape, same helmet. **

But look how right it looks with just the replaced jacked on. It`s night and day.




** It worked as part of the point and tone of the storyarc, though and therefore best left for that sorta standalone note.

----------


## Aioros22

I always mused that a special edition of Arkham Knight could benefit with more than one ending. One of them being this new Batman with seemingly fear gas on his side after taking down the Scarecrow..



Tadaa.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That pic of Damian in the cell made me laugh the hardest when reading that issue.Also I guess Superman never told Bruce where he put Tim. Also the wording makes it sound like Jason hasn't come back yet or at least they don't if he's back yet.





> They gotta play the mistery that way, otherwise Damian would have met him and I think the idea they`re selling is that he never did.


That is the implication, yeah. I just hope that IF their angle, Taylor manages to do something more with Jason than retreading Under the Red Hood a third time.

----------


## Cuthbert

> That is the implication, yeah. I just hope that IF their angle, Taylor manages to do something more with Jason than retreading Under the Red Hood a third time.


My question is, do we know/have any idea which side Jason will take when he does show up in the comics (since it seems like he will at this point)?  I'd like to see him somewhere in the middle between Batman and Superman, but definitely leaning heavily towards Batman.  It would set up good character moments/character conflict to see Jason and Batman having different ideals but being forced to work together to combat the larger threat that is Superman and his regime.

I think setting him up with the regime is a little too obvious and isn't really true to the character.  Yes, he doesn't mind killing criminals, but he's not a fascist.  I hope we see him bounce back and forth a bit, operate with his own agenda, but ultimately settle with Batman and his team.

Anyone else have any ideas/predictions?

----------


## kaimaciel

I would also like for him to be on Batman's side. If he isn't, I sense they would use him as a means to reunite Bruce and Damian. I don't mind if Damian and Bruce made up, but not at Jay's expense. 

I would like some Jason/Bruce feels.

----------


## Rise

> That is the implication, yeah. I just hope that IF their angle, Taylor manages to do something more with Jason than retreading Under the Red Hood a third time.


What are you guys talking about? Which implication?

----------


## Alycat

I don't see any way or reason for Jason to side with Superman. Maybe when events first started, but everything to the end of Injustice 1 should put them firmly against each other.

----------


## Rise

> My question is, do we know/have any idea which side Jason will take when he does show up in the comics (since it seems like he will at this point)?  I'd like to see him somewhere in the middle between Batman and Superman, but definitely leaning heavily towards Batman.  It would set up good character moments/character conflict to see Jason and Batman having different ideals but being forced to work together to combat the larger threat that is Superman and his regime.
> 
> I think setting him up with the regime is a little too obvious and isn't really true to the character.  Yes, he doesn't mind killing criminals, but he's not a fascist.  I hope we see him bounce back and forth a bit, operate with his own agenda, but ultimately settle with Batman and his team.
> 
> Anyone else have any ideas/predictions?


The injustice universe is unpredictable and full of suprises. So, I really can't tell.

But I do like your idea and it would interesting to see Jason having his own agenda and not really taking sides.

----------


## Rise

> What are you guys talking about? Which implication?


Never mind. I just realized that you guys are talking about the solicitation of upcoming issues.

I don't think it's Jason though because they don't seem like they are planning to reveal him anytime soon and I doubt that they will reveal him in the comic first.

----------


## Aioros22

On first impression Jason should always be his own side but given the choice between that Superman and Batman..he wouldn`t chose a despote outside a big swerve on the reader.

----------


## Cuthbert

> On first impression Jason should always be his own side but given the choice between that Superman and Batman..he wouldn`t chose a despote outside a big swerve on the reader.


Yeah but, would you have said that Flash, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, etcetera would have chosen the despot Superman over Batman?  No, but seeing these heroes become villains is kind of the point of Injustice.  Since Red Hood has already been portrayed as both a villain and an anti-hero, it's probably less of a stretch for him to join the regime than it is for Flash or Cyborg.

In other words, yes the Jason in the main continuity wouldn't side with Superman, but in the Injustice world?  Who knows.

----------


## Aioros22

Wonder Woman and Green Lantern? It didn`t surprised me to be honest. 

You`re right of course, if they could even turn Captain Marvel the antagonist of sorts of two Elsewords, nobody is really safe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What are you guys talking about? Which implication?


The implication of Jason haven't been revived and/or making his debut as the Red Hood on the Injustice Universe.

That said, yeah, I could see Jason siding with Batman while Damian continues with Superman. 

Anyways, here's the variant for RHATO 10

----------


## Aioros22

Fudging cool!

----------


## Rise

> The implication of Jason haven't been revived and/or making his debut as the Red Hood on the Injustice Universe.
> 
> That said, yeah, I could see Jason siding with Batman while Damian continues with Superman. 
> 
> Anyways, here's the variant for RHATO 10


Oh, I really should have paid more attention to what have been said. 

Cool cover.

----------


## Rise

Btw, has anyone here read countdown the search for Ray Palmer? I really didn't expect to like it, but it was good and Jason and kyle interactions in the Wildstorm issue were quite funny.

----------


## Jovos2099

Does any one think that there's a chance for Jason's old sidekick Scarlett to show up in red hood and the outlaws or somewhere else in the rebirth comics?

----------


## Aioros22

While some depictions back then wouldn`t fit I don`t think Scarlett wouldn`t be an issue if Loedbell wanted. She`s an easy piece of the puzzle to square in. You just need to bring her back and use what she is at raw concept: someone whom Jason helped and decided to maybe train after feeling a personal connection to her.

----------


## Aioros22

> Btw, has anyone here read countdown the search for Ray Palmer? I really didn't expect to like it, but it was good and Jason and kyle interactions in the Wildstorm issue were quite funny.


That was basically the best part of the whole thing, culminating with Jason meeting and losing a Batman again.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://vgmondo.deviantart.com/art/Fathertodd-351968483

----------


## Jovos2099

Is that a picture of father todd from flashpoint?

----------


## Aioros22

Talk about puzzles fitting in. Father Todd needs to come back somehow. Maybe Loedbell can make him go undercover in a church sometime soon..totally about my favorite AU Jason so far.

----------


## Aioros22

> Is that a picture of father todd from flashpoint?


Several in fact  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

http://killinganger.deviantart.com/a...Todd-356877724

----------


## Robotman

> Does any one think that there's a chance for Jason's old sidekick Scarlett to show up in red hood and the outlaws or somewhere else in the rebirth comics?


I would love to see Scarlett return. Maybe she would still have Jason's old mindset of killing criminals to "control crime." Could be a big conflict now that Jason is operating more along the lines of the Batfamily. No killing.

----------


## Alycat

Father Todd was a great character. Would like to see him more.

----------


## Jovos2099

Well with flashpoint Batman Thomas wayne appearing in the upcoming Batman the flash crossover the button who knows maybe father todd and doctor fate dick Grayson could make an appearance.

----------


## AJpyro

What comic I need to buy for Father Todd? Considering the image of Talia holding Jason/Jason holding Bizarro back in RHatO 3 I believe, the religion angle is interesting.

----------


## Assam

Jason and Cass.jpg

I'd never want either of these two in these roles, but Marcus To's art is still fantastic.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## G-Potion

> http://killinganger.deviantart.com/a...Todd-356877724


That Jason and Dean parallel tho!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Attachment 47935
> 
> I'd never want either of these two in these roles, but Marcus To's art is still fantastic.


Isn't that Dick?

----------


## Assam

> Isn't that Dick?


Nope. According to the place I found it, that's just how To draws Jason.

----------


## Aahz

tumblr_nrtbkqGYqh1s6f5zto1_1280.jpg

tumblr_nvvlo4VKVP1ric1s6o1_1280.jpg

----------


## Rise

> What comic I need to buy for Father Todd? Considering the image of Talia holding Jason/Jason holding Bizarro back in RHatO 3 I believe, the religion angle is interesting.


The world of Flashpoint 2.

I also wish to see more of  Father Todd.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> Attachment 47935
> 
> I'd never want either of these two in these roles, but Marcus To's art is still fantastic.


And neither of them skipped a leg day. Awesome brushing!

I wouldn`t mind a AU of this just for kicks..




> That Jason and Dean parallel tho!


It had to be done  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

http://vespertila.deviantart.com/art...gure-493545285


Hush little baby, don`t say a word

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

So good to _know_ you`re still out there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Something that it was pointed out on reddit (yeah I know) about Injustice. Next reveal is on 4/28 right?

You know what happened on Batman comics on that issue?



Yup.

----------


## Alycat

I'm soooo excited to see Injustice Jason. It'll be interesting since Jason in the non Injustice verse is on good terms with his family.

----------


## kaimaciel

batman and robin.jpg

batscream_by_katachan-d65v1km.jpg

tumblr_n4khdxmBLB1sug82vo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

Love that first picture  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aahz

tumblr_mqgtk5MJjX1r7xa31o1_1280.jpg

tumblr_o5zmwkONMy1sr00o9o1_1280.jpg

tumblr_ohxvcwi3DJ1scuxogo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

That first one was oficial artwork that came out in some cards back in the 90`s, wasn`t? It`s familiar. 

I`m thinking of tracking down more sequences/panels of Jason`s literature/History enjoyment since the Pre Crisis heydays (or was it just PC?) I know there`s a Winnick alfred issue where he talks about collecting first editions as a tradition between the two but I don`t recall the issue.

----------


## Aahz

> That first one was oficial artwork that came out in some cards back in the 90`s, wasn`t? It`s familiar.


I have to admitt that I don't know where it is from.




> I`m thinking of tracking down more sequences/panels of Jason`s literature/History enjoyment since the Pre Crisis heydays (or was it just PC?) I know there`s a Winnick alfred issue where he talks about collecting first editions as a tradition between the two but I don`t recall the issue.


Thats Batman #648, I think his interst in history comes also up in Batman #413 and you might also find something in "Countdown Presents: The Search for Ray Palmer: Gotham by Gaslight".

----------


## Aioros22

There was this set called DC Pepsi cards (which I never had in my hands, just saw it once online), which has a similar art style. Kind of like 90`s Bisley painting styles. 



I`m not sure if it`s the same but it rang a bell.

----------


## Assam

> tumblr_o5zmwkONMy1sr00o9o1_1280.jpg


You know, now that Jason has basically quit killing, I think him and Cass would get along pretty well.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Rocafort's art is amazing, but his art doesn't show Jason at his true size. Jim Lee will always be number one for drawing Jason. The raw power he showed drawing him was perfect. His size, face, and posture were perfect under Lee's pen.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I think adding a religious angle to Jason would be neat. Make him Catholic.

----------


## Aioros22

Not sure if that would sorta compromise the charcacter, since dealing with religion in comics can be iffy. FatherTodd is a great study and some undercover mission could give us something on that angle but given Jason`s nonchalant attitude towards his own death, I`m not sure how they would deal it.

----------


## Aioros22

austintoya.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> 


Oh where is this from? Awesome redesign of Denis Medri's costume.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://vespertila.deviantart.com/art...gure-493545285
> 
> 
> Hush little baby, don`t say a word


I'm surprised there's a Funko of Jason in that outfit. It's a good outfit though and would like to see it again someday.

----------


## G-Potion

> So good to _know_ you`re still out there.


Saw it and immediately thought of this

----------


## Aahz



----------


## G-Potion

These I haven't seen before. Adorable.   :Embarrassment: 

Quick question. Black or brown jacket better?

----------


## Assam

> These I haven't seen before. Adorable.  
> 
> Quick question. Black or brown jacket better?


Brown, and ONLY as a jacket. The hoodie was ugly.

----------


## Aahz

> Quick question. Black or brown jacket better?


I prefer Black.

----------


## Aahz

http://denkata5698.deviantart.com/gallery/

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I'm surprised there's a Funko of Jason in that outfit. It's a good outfit though and would like to see it again someday.


I believe, from the source, that it's custom made.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://denkata5698.deviantart.com/gallery/


Next to the other bats, the AK suit looks way superior.  :Cool: 

http://yktk-zzz.tumblr.com/post/9184...81%97%E3%81%84

----------


## G-Potion

> I believe, from the source, that it's custom made.


Ah thanks. Should've guessed since the one I use for avatar is also custom made I believe.

----------


## Aioros22

> These I haven't seen before. Adorable.  
> 
> Quick question. Black or brown jacket better?


They both look good but at this point the Brown jacket wins on points. Outside the "Red Mask" bucket, Jason sinmply has good aesthetics. I`m getting the AK red hoodie myself because it`s just baws.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ah thanks. Should've guessed since the one I use for avatar is also custom made I believe.


Yeah, custom work from the Nigthwing figure, I`m assuming. And that picture of the demon mask oriented version of the RHAA suit/hoodle has a link in the right corner, which I also assume, is from the artist or the page they got it from. I haven`t checked yet.

----------


## G-Potion

http://potatocat.tumblr.com/post/196...n-action-based

The Red Hood and outlaw children in action! (Based on a scene in issue 2.)

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

_Ladies and gentlemen, the perfect amount of Sass
_

----------


## Alycat

That Arkham Knight suit is such a good design. The rip off version in Tec is okay too.

----------


## G-Potion

That Damian and Jason panels were edited I think. I remember it differently.

http://u2333.tumblr.com/post/157650689867/c4


https://ghostiestart.tumblr.com/post...68019/its-3-am

----------


## Aioros22

> That Arkham Knight suit is such a good design. The rip off version in Tec is okay too.


At least we know the Colony loves to play the game.

----------


## Aioros22

Funny how I knew that the last RATHO had that face panel ringed similar somehow


also smiling photo  but then I was like, waitaminute Soy was also in the AK comic.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

So, after the issue coming out this week, how you conciliate the most gut wrenching moment with what we already knew of Jason? Lodbell is absolutely giving us something so deeply psychologically rich than before and some of the character study isn`t certainly playing safe. 

(As you`d expect that moment is making some headlines in online communities like Tumblr.)

One of the things I immensily enjoyed when RATHO was first launched was Jason been written as someone who done some growing up and acceptance but true enough he still had some rocky road ahead of him that made him rethink some of that acceptance and deal new sorts of pain (most notably ending the partnership/friendship with Roy). Just recently with all the posts about FatherTodd one poster remarks about whether Jason should have an especific if any, religious view which stuck with me as I was reading this issue. 

I`d like to read your takes and opinions on this as I digest my own.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That Damian and Jason panel is indeed edited. 

I really like the AK Red Hood but the Arkham Knight armor is pretty meh for me. It didn't help that I loathed Jason's characterization on the game and comics. 

When your writing makes _me_ think Jason is whiny bitch, then you've messed up.

----------


## Alycat

> 


Red Nightwing  :Frown: 




> That Damian and Jason panel is indeed edited. 
> 
> I really like the AK Red Hood but the Arkham Knight armor is pretty meh for me. It didn't help that I loathed Jason's characterization on the game and comics. 
> 
> When your writing makes _me_ think Jason is whiny bitch, then you've messed up.


I legit felt bad for AK Jason. He would've been better off dead instead of having to endure torture for a year. I'm not surprised he was so unhinged when doing anything ther than commanding people.

----------


## Aioros22

> That Damian and Jason panel is indeed edited. 
> 
> I really like the AK Red Hood but the Arkham Knight armor is pretty meh for me. It didn't help that I loathed Jason's characterization on the game and comics. 
> 
> When your writing makes _me_ think Jason is whiny bitch, then you've messed up.


Tortured and conditioned for a year will do that to you I guess.

----------


## Aioros22

And by the way, yes that panel with Damian is edited but it`s fun and on character.

----------


## G-Potion

> So, after the issue coming out this week, how you conciliate the most gut wrenching moment with what we already knew of Jason? Lodbell is absolutely giving us something so deeply psychologically rich than before and some of the character study isn`t certainly playing safe. 
> 
> (As you`d expect that moment is making some headlines in online communities like Tumblr.)
> 
> One of the things I immensily enjoyed when RATHO was first launched was Jason been written as someone who done some growing up and acceptance but true enough he still had some rocky road ahead of him that made him rethink some of that acceptance and deal new sorts of pain (most notably ending the partnership/friendship with Roy). Just recently with all the posts about FatherTodd one poster remarks about whether Jason should have an especific if any, religious view which stuck with me as I was reading this issue. 
> 
> I`d like to read your takes and opinions on this as I digest my own.


I certainly wish there would be more moments where Jason "loses it" because it would shed more light on some issues that Jason himself might not be aware of. 
About religious Jason, while I'm not sure whether he should or shouldn't be, but I believe due to his mysterious resurrection, his belief in some power up there could very well be stronger now.

----------


## Aioros22

I`ve read opinions that he basically "loses it" when he unleashes his violence upon the world at large and his opponents in particulal. Which brings me back to what Ducra said of Jason back then and why she focused a lot in mentally train him.

----------


## Aioros22

From Batman Annual #12, 1988




Oh, wow. Never read this before, he was top of the class. So good that his own teacher adviced him to chill and get a hobbie  :Big Grin:  Who the fudge is Michael Tidalgo..? 

Links fixed, sorry about that.

----------


## Rise

> I legit felt bad for AK Jason. He would've been better off dead instead of having to endure torture for a year. I'm not surprised he was so unhinged when doing anything ther than commanding people.


Definitely. Jason's behavior in AK makes prefect sense because the guy was tortured physical and mentally (by the joker none less) for a year before he was able to escape (His torture scenes in the game was so messed up in so many levels).

I actually liked this take on Jason and think it was really interesting. Also, his AK costume was one the best costumes I have seen for comic character.

----------


## G-Potion

One detail I also like about AK!Jason is how fondly his militia talks about him. A shame his miniseries never touched on that. Also a shame we didn't see his transition from AK to Red Hood.

----------


## Aioros22

Say what you want about that Morrison story but the way he shields Scarlet against Flamingo was dead on. Jason being protective of those he takes under his guidance is one of the positive points that you can extract from a controversial take.

----------


## Aioros22

Friends *are* important.

----------


## AJpyro

> Friends *are* important.


Aww this is nice. I hope we get another bar scene with all 3 outlaws.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s funny to see how he started RATHO seeing them as utilitarian, as means to a thing and end up learning what friendship really is about, hardships and all. If you compare how long he took to open to Kory and Roy and now, well, it`s a stark difference. 

He`s so less cinical about it these days.

----------


## G-Potion

http://rockitz.tumblr.com/post/15939...ed-opportunity

----------


## G-Potion

Love her AK!Jason inspired design.
http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Jovos2099

Wasn't Jason the robin who saved Batman superman and wonder woman in the for man who has everything storyline and is that story canon again postsuperman reborn?

----------


## Moriarty

> 


lmao!  ah, that's great.

----------


## Aioros22

> Wasn't Jason the robin who saved Batman superman and wonder woman in the for man who has everything storyline and is that story canon again postsuperman reborn?


Yeah he was. The status of that story is always ambiguous. It`s part of Superman`s group of iconic stories but it`s also Alan Moore`s thing and him and DC don`t get along. 

Not sure where it would count in Rebirth, Superman`s chronology has just erged.

----------


## Jovos2099

One thing I've read is that back in the 80s comics Jason apparently had a huge crush on wonder woman which if that is still Canon sort of puts Jason's interactions with Artemis in a slightly different light.

----------


## Aioros22

Eh, where you read that? That would be a very especific trivia. One of the things I recall from that era is that young Jay was always found adorable by the girls. Donna, working girls, classmates, ya know the drill. Diana does as well in that story but his thing never read to me as straightforward crush in the sense..well, who wouldn`t? 

Donna on the other hand..even back then you could tell they got along well on a personal level.

----------


## Aioros22

The especific crush was probably Wonder Girl, though.

----------


## Rise

GUYS, I just listened to interview with Lobdell talking about future issues!!!

SPOILERS COMING UP: (I warned you)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.  

Bizarro is going to have a face off with Solomon Grundy.

The current Outlaws is going to have a face off with THE OLD OUTLAWS!! (he said it going to happen between issue 12-16)

Lobdell is planning to do a story with the outlaws going to different world and meet the crime syndicate where they will go undercover (he said he wants to do it, but not certain about it yet)

.
.
.
.
.
.
SPOILERS END.

He also talked about issue 9 and how this arc is personal for Artemis and Jason while put Bizarro in a situation to handle in his own, the dynamic between Jason & Artemis and Jason & Bizarro (he said that the editors really like Jason and Artemis dynamic and they are trying to push them closer, but he is resisting the demand) and how he wants the series to be fun, limitless and have the outlaws in different places.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> GUYS, I just listened to interview with Lobdell talking about future issues!!!
> 
> SPOILERS COMING UP: (I warned you)
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ...


That sounds really interesting. You happen to have a link to the interview?

----------


## Aahz

> One thing I've read is that back in the 80s comics Jason apparently had a huge crush on wonder woman which if that is still Canon sort of puts Jason's interactions with Artemis in a slightly different light.


But this was Earth 1 Jason (= the red haired circus kid).

----------


## Rise

I have sent you the link, DT.

And Aahz, Earth 1 or whatever is still JASON. Stop being so obsessed with continuity and "AND THIS NOT MY JASON TODD" mentality. Also, fyi it was actually referred in N52 RHATO when Superman encountered the Outlaws.

----------


## Aioros22

Could you share the link to the interview under a Spoilers tag, Rise? There`s alot of interesting info there.

----------


## Rise

I unfortunately don't know how to do use the spoiler tag so I sent you the link instead.

----------


## Aioros22

G-Potion, love those Outlaws find, man  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> I unfortunately don't know how to do use the spoiler tag so I sent you the link instead.


Much appreciated! I`ll try to share it unless someone beat me to it.

----------


## Aioros22

And here it is, I hope I got it right. The link directly opens to the podcast where the relevant bit are the last 20 minutes. Be spoiled at your own discretion.

[spoil]http://www.downandnerdypodcast.com/[/QUOTE]

----------


## Aahz

> And Aahz, Earth 1 or whatever is still JASON. Stop being so obsessed with continuity and "AND THIS NOT MY JASON TODD" mentality. Also, fyi it was actually referred in N52 RHATO when Superman encountered the Outlaws.


But he is very different from the other versions of Jason. And Superman only referenced Jason saving his live, but not clearly under which circumstances.

----------


## G-Potion

> GUYS, I just listened to interview with Lobdell talking about future issues!!!
> 
> SPOILERS COMING UP: (I warned you)
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ...


About time we hear something from the man himself. Great find, Rise! Much thanks!

----------


## G-Potion

> And here it is, I hope I got it right. The link directly opens to the podcast where the relevant bit are the last 20 minutes. Be spoiled at your own discretion.
> 
> [spoil]http://www.downandnerdypodcast.com/


Neat!  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Seriously. This guy and his ideas!!! I hope the undercover thing is greenlit.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

> But he is very different from the other versions of Jason. And Superman only referenced Jason saving his live, but not clearly under which circumstances.


The background was different but the character beats weren`t dramatically apart. And in this case, his "thing" with Donna transfered to one continuity to another up until Pre-Flashpoint. It`s clear writers liked the idea enough to have played with it. 

The Superman thing was a nod. It can be a story we`ve never seen, can be during Crisis when Jason was already Robin but for the older readers the Moore story is the direct reference.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #12
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by CLAY MANN
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“THE LIFE OF BIZARRO” part one! Bizarro’s final days are upon us! As Red Hood and the Outlaws rush home to Gotham City in an effort to save Bizarro’s life, a new threat is unleashed in the form of Solomon Grundy! Can the Outlaws stop Grundy’s rampage without their most powerful member? Who unleashed the monster in the first place? And can Grundy defeated in time to save Bizarro from certain death? Find out in the start of a brand new adventure!
On sale JULY 12 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+

----------


## Aioros22

There you go, spoilers seem on point. Yes!

Let`s hope Grundy isn`t written as thrown-away this time.

----------


## Cuthbert

Genuine question:

What is the point of Jason having guns at this point?  I mean, on the covers he always firing them, but does he actually use them in the comics?  I guess I'm not sure about whether or not he uses lethal force.  Have we seen him shoot anybody recently?  I'd go through my RHatO Rebirth books to check, but I don't have them on me.

----------


## Assam

> Genuine question:
> 
> What is the point of Jason having guns at this point?  I mean, on the covers he always firing them, but does he actually use them in the comics?  I guess I'm not sure about whether or not he uses lethal force.  Have we seen him shoot anybody recently?  I'd go through my RHatO Rebirth books to check, but I don't have them on me.


I think right now, Jason is trying his best to avoid lethal force, but IS willing to use it if necessary.

----------


## Robotman

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #12
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by CLAY MANN
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “THE LIFE OF BIZARRO” part one! Bizarro’s final days are upon us! As Red Hood and the Outlaws rush home to Gotham City in an effort to save Bizarro’s life, a new threat is unleashed in the form of Solomon Grundy! Can the Outlaws stop Grundy’s rampage without their most powerful member? Who unleashed the monster in the first place? And can Grundy defeated in time to save Bizarro from certain death? Find out in the start of a brand new adventure!
> On sale JULY 12 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


Please please please reestablish Bizarro and Grundy's friendship! That Solomon Grundy mini series was great and their friendship was my favorite part.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think right now, Jason is trying his best to avoid lethal force, but IS willing to use it if necessary.


And to cement it further, he still uses guns, yes. It`s also part of his asthetic and character design. That said it`s only a matter of time until he also starts using the Al Caste swords again  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> Please please please reestablish Bizarro and Grundy's friendship! That Solomon Grundy mini series was great and their friendship was my favorite part.


Had no idea  :Cool:  I wonder if that`s part of the end goal of the new story.

----------


## Aahz

> What is the point of Jason having guns at this point?  I mean, on the covers he always firing them, but does he actually use them in the comics?


You see him fire his guns, but you hardly ever see them hit something.
I realy would like them to bring either the All-Blades or his dagger back, Jason seems anyway more of a guy for close combat.

----------


## Assam

I don't want the All-Blades to come back at all. I just find them silly looking, as if they were designed by a 3rd grader.

----------


## Aioros22

> You see him fire his guns, but you hardly ever see them hit something


Pretty sure he`s hit stuff. Even you don`t see it, the naration supports his good aim in general anyhow.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't want the All-Blades to come back at all. I just find them silly looking, as if they were designed by a 3rd grader


Easy, ask a 2nd grader to redesign them. 

This guns vs blades argument is faux pas to me. He can use both. He`s shown to be proficient in both. There`s no point in disregarding any of the two when you can sandbox the two styles or even mix it up.

----------


## G-Potion

> Please please please reestablish Bizarro and Grundy's friendship! That Solomon Grundy mini series was great and their friendship was my favorite part.


This looks so good??! I never knew about this!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Easy, ask a 2nd grader to redesign them. 
> 
> This guns vs blades argument is faux pas to me. He can use both. He`s shown to be proficient in both. There`s no point in disregarding any of the two when you can sandbox the two styles or even mix it up.


Absolutely. He's been shown using guns, All-blades, knife, normal sword/katana, escrima sticks and also that makeshift whips in BRE, plus the various weapon hidden in his armor. There's no reason to stick to just one thing. 

And if I remember correctly Jason hit his targets plenty in his N52 day? Even non-lethal he's hitting kneecaps just fine.

----------


## G-Potion

Love this fight from Countdown

----------


## Aahz

> Absolutely. He's been shown using guns, All-blades, knife, normal sword/katana, escrima sticks and also that makeshift whips in BRE, plus the various weapon hidden in his armor. There's no reason to stick to just one thing.


Don't forget chairs, garbage can tops and snow balls.

----------


## G-Potion

For the life of me, I can't recall where the garbage can tops and snow balls are from.

----------


## G-Potion

Also, if there's one thing from Post-Crisis I want back, that is Jason's mastery of poison.

----------


## Assam

> Love this fight from Countdown


Praising something...from Countdown? 

DOES NOT COMPUTE!!!

----------


## Assam

> Also, if there's one thing from Post-Crisis I want back, that is Jason's mastery of poison.


In terms of Jason's history, or the DCU as a whole? Cause if it's the latter, that's definitely a unique opinion.XD 

But yeah, Jason being a poison master was cool.

----------


## G-Potion

Eh, I read it for Jason only. His team is easily the best part of Countdown.

----------


## G-Potion

Well I meant the former, but now that you mentioned DCU as a whole, I can't think of anything different either so both, I guess. XD

----------


## G-Potion

This thread needs more art.




(http://astraea-f-blueblack.tumblr.co...e-with-bat-dad)

----------


## G-Potion

Guess that's it for Jason/Artemis being a thing, for now. Not that I mind. I love how Lobdell is in no rush to push them together.





(http://austintoya.tumblr.com/post/156711230598)

----------


## Alycat

> Eh, I read it for Jason only. His team is easily the best part of Countdown.


They were easily the only redeeming factor in that pile of poo. Overall though I just really like when Green Lanterns interact with Bat members. It's too entertaining.

----------


## Assam

> This thread needs more art.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (http://astraea-f-blueblack.tumblr.co...e-with-bat-dad)


The first one, more specifically the "fuck Batman" part, reminds me of a fanfic I once wrote where Jason and Cass bonded over beating up Dick together...obviously this was written before they were all on good terms. 

The 2nd one is just great. DorkyBatdad is best Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> For the life of me, I can't recall where the garbage can tops and snow balls are from.


The garbage can tops are from his fight with Deathstroke (the pre rebirth series) and the snow balls from Batman Annual #13.

And i forgot of cousre tire irons.

----------


## Aahz

> Praising something...from Countdown?


The beginning of Count Down is imo actually quire good, and Jason has imo some good moments in this series, I definatlly enjoyed him in that series way more than in the Eternals or his other appearences in batman events in the New 52.

The problem with countdown is just the story becomes very messy at some point.

----------


## G-Potion

> The garbage can tops are from his fight with Deathstroke (the pre rebirth series) and the snow balls from Batman Annual #13.


Gah I can't believe I forgot the garbage can when I just thought about that Deathstroke issue earlier. Still need to hunt down that Batman Annual #13 though. No snowball comes to mind yet.

Also, this sure looks sweet.

Annual Batman - Superman #1 (2014) - Page 19.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

From this amazing post (more under the cut): 

http://arkhamkjay.tumblr.com/post/15...laylist-listen

----------


## Aahz

> Gah I can't believe I forgot the garbage can when I just thought about that Deathstroke issue earlier. Still need to hunt down that Batman Annual #13 though. No snowball comes to mind yet.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Thanks, mate!  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

There's a Rebirth RHATO version too.





More here: http://stephanieebrown.tumblr.com/po...he-outlaws-the and here http://stephanieebrown.tumblr.com/ta...ws%20band%20au

----------


## Aioros22

Haha awesome  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

I guess I can see where the idea for the mocking tone over Death in King`s Burger comes from?

Interesting but not much of a loss. The entirety of Forever Evil durr is best left forgotten amist the sands of time.

----------


## Alycat

So did anybody read the latest Injustice issue? Some people think that could be Jason there although we won't know till later.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm not following the book but I saw this on tumblr.
7e68677e-816d-45e0-98f3-5ad8b9b61479.jpg

There is also Robin in the character tags on the website, along side Damian. 
The chance is real.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm not following the book but I saw this on tumblr.
> 7e68677e-816d-45e0-98f3-5ad8b9b61479.jpg
> 
> There is also Robin in the character tags on the website, along side Damian. 
> The chance is real.


Yeah, the issue was pretty whatever, but I got to that part and was like yeah so that isn't actually Batman and my mind drifted to Battle of the Cowl for mostly terrible reasons, and how Jason finally got brought up in issue 1.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, the issue was pretty whatever, but I got to that part and was like yeah so that isn't actually Batman and my mind drifted to Battle of the Cowl for mostly terrible reasons, and how Jason finally got brought up in issue 1.


I think who ever is this guy is probably mind controlled by Grodd and is recruiting the Suicide Squad for Grodds society.

----------


## Aioros22

Despite common sense, Injustice been having some fun moments. My favorites so far have been Ares, the God of fudging War telling Diana: "Did you just heabutt a tank? You left your Island to be a ambassador for peace and you`re headbutting tanks?" and kid Connor shooting toy arrows at Dr Fate is another. Most badass characters so far were the Gods thought, especially Heracles. 

Anyhow,





It lives!!
hopefully

----------


## Alycat

The best part of Injustice was Alfred giving a beat down and Narghhs for everyone.

----------


## Aioros22

I like how crazy it is but I don`t get wet with Alfred like most bat fandom does. 

Hercules on the other hand was going Momoa on those suits.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

For those come came in late---

Are those the only actual moments Jason`s been directly mentioned thus far or have there been more that I missed?

----------


## okiedokiewo

https://twitter.com/mister_batfleck/...88448052363264

Here's all of the panels.

----------


## Alycat

> I like how crazy it is but I don`t get wet with Alfred like most bat fandom does. 
> 
> Hercules on the other hand was going Momoa on those suits.


Nah it's understandable.   But that moment was just so over the top and embodied all the craziness on the Injustice universe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> For those come came in late---
> 
> Are those the only actual moments Jason`s been directly mentioned thus far or have there been more that I missed?


Just for the record, the first panels between Batman and Joker aren't about Jason but about what Joker did to Superman. Jason was virtually inexistent through most of the first Injustice series, only having a sloppy "He's in a crowd shot" moment near the end of year 5.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s a dissapointment, I only started to follow Injustice a tad more when the Gods were introduced so I assume the conversation was obvious. 

So there`s a one name panel so far and a fresh maybe it`s Jason introduction.

----------


## Alycat

I have to say if that is Jason then he better not be a Batman alt. in the game. That would be super disappointing.

----------


## G-Potion

Imagine the meltdown. But no, I don't think they would do that considering how in-demand he is. Why would Boon do multiple polls with Jason if there's no intention to have him in the game.

My concern is more about his role. Should he be a DLC or should he be featured in the story? How well do you think the the characters of the first Injustice were written?

----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/mister_batfleck/...88448052363264
> 
> Here's all of the panels.


Twin guns. It looks more and more likely to be Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> Imagine the meltdown. But no, I don't think they would do that considering how in-demand he is. Why would Boon do multiple polls with Jason if there's no intention to have him in the game.
> 
> My concern is more about his role. Should he be a DLC or should he be featured in the story? How well do you think the the characters of the first Injustice were written?


The way character reveals are going I expect DLC. The leaked roster didn't have him as a starter character.

----------


## G-Potion

So on which side does this "Batman" seem to be? If it's indeed Jason, I hope they can skip the antagonism towards Bruce this time. Try something new.

----------


## G-Potion

Saw this on tumblr. Jason's rocket.




At his finest.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

What a great find! Next time I have the TPB I`ll check it out. Funny thing too, there`s an ep in Young justice where the original Roy also uses a rocket launcher towards a building to hit Luthor. 

About the Injustice panels...twin guns...adquiring (here`s my GTA lessons kick in) a small undertaking to build a bigger operation under his heel...Killer Crock, the seemingly glow red eyes Yeah, seems like him. Not sure how that will reflect in the game considering Ed Boon has always named Jason "Red Hood" in the polls he`s made. I`m expecting a Hood spin later if it is indeed him. Especially in the game, because an alt Batman is no Money.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah it's understandable.   But that moment was just so over the top and embodied all the craziness on the Injustice universe.


That and Dick dying are the Darkseid fumbling stairs of our time.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Never touch the jacket without permittion, girl

----------


## adrikito

> Twin guns. It looks more and more likely to be Jason.


Thanks, for confirm that.. I see the current Injustice Comic.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, it`s no confirmation yet. It jus looks like it is because, among other things, that scene is very "Under The Red Hood". That and the game coming out soon. 

If it is him, the alt Batman look may be part of his whole plan or an actual desire to replace Bruce or take him down, depending which side he ends up being.

----------


## G-Potion

> Never touch the jacket without permittion, girl


I never care for Jason's dynamics with the female bats. The supers and amazonian ladies on the other hand...  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Assam

> I never care for Jason's dynamics with the female bats.The supers and amazonian ladies on the other hand...


Outside of Babs, has he even had any meaningful interactions? BR:E was the first time he ever met Cass (And I still say those two COULD have a great dynamic), I don't think Jason has spoken two words to Steph or Kate, I can't really remember anything notable with him and Huntress, etc. 

I agree with the fact that Jason's relationship with Amazons are pretty fun, but his relationships with the female bats aren't bad, just flat out unexplored.

----------


## G-Potion

Unexplored as it is, the few times that Jason gets to talk to Kate and Steph, it's either dismissal/argumentative from them. I think because it's easy for writers to fit Jason into the role of this loud/annoying guy (though only superficially) in family events and rarely his depth is recognized by the other bats. Jason when interacting with other characters outside bat-fam, he's not put into this role anymore so it allows him to act and be seen as himself. I think.

----------


## G-Potion

AK!Jason Goodness: http://bvkim.tumblr.com/
Love the AK militia.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedQueen

Yeah, his relationship with Babs is weird. I would've of like maybe an arc based on them being the the two having, while different experiences and circumstances, they undoubtedly have the brutal and personal experiences with the Joker in the Batfamily and to have that explored in interesting ways would have been interesting and to explore their psyches about their traumas with someone who can they can relate i guess. Not for the crush antics. But at least she's nice to him now I guess.

I think he dissed Steph in B&RE I think? I don't remember much.

He and cass would be an interesting double act.

I absolutely prefer his dynamic with Artemis than Supergirl. Maybe New 52 Supergirl but not Rebirth Supergirl. But personally I think his dynamic with Artemis pretty much trumps any other interactions he has for me.

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood and Deathstroke by Ren Wei Pan. Very nice as a set.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't think Jason has spoken two words to Steph or Kate, I can't really remember anything notable with him and Huntress, etc.


Huntress and Steph I'm less sure on (though I don't recall him having _ever_ met Helena B.), but he and Kate have met a couple of times. Initially Kate thought he was an idiot, but she seems to have warmed up to him a bit during their Brazilian mission in Batman Eternal.

----------


## G-Potion

Does Black Canary count as a bat? However their off-panel exchange goes, she "dislikes Jason personally" in BR:E.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

More batbros from http://vipadafai.tumblr.com/post/152511326669

----------


## Assam

> Does Black Canary count as a bat? However their off-panel exchange goes, she "dislikes Jason personally" in BR:E.


In my mind, there's Batfamily, Extended Batfamily, and Bat Allies. Black Canary falls in as a bat ally, much like Zatanna.

----------


## Aioros22

> Huntress and Steph I'm less sure on (though I don't recall him having _ever_ met Helena B.), but he and Kate have met a couple of times. Initially Kate thought he was an idiot, but she seems to have warmed up to him a bit during their Brazilian mission in Batman Eternal.


If a writer used that as a sort of meta commentary on how fellow writers in general only use what superficial effect Jason could have on the others, it would actually look crafty. Barbara`s example is weird because she is written as bipolar, pretty straighforwardly. Not that she hasn`t with Grayson, true enough..

Black Canary`s statement is just out of character without any context to drive home. How would she dislike someone "personally" without any meaningfull interaction and why should readers care either way when we don`t see it? That`s not characterization, it`s merely trying to pretend there`s something to fill the background. Pretty cliché for events all around.

----------


## Aioros22

This is just rad  :Cool: "Beyond" AK suit:

----------


## G-Potion

Those arm blades are awesome. Seriously hope Jason will have them if he's in Injustice.

----------


## Assam

> Those arm blades are awesome. Seriously hope Jason will have them if he's in Injustice.


If he does, I hope they more look like the ones on THAT suit, and less like the All-Blades. (Am I really the only one who thinks those things look silly as Hell?)

----------


## G-Potion

You mean the All-Blades look silly or the ones on his arms that help him glide?

----------


## Aioros22

Jason`s collection of suits is something to behold. Even when he didn`t create them, he just adds the cool and becomes them. 

http://phil-cho.deviantart.com/


https://www.pinterest.pt/source/bobk...deviantart.com

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, his relationship with Babs is weird. I would've of like maybe an arc based on them being the the two having, while different experiences and circumstances, they undoubtedly have the brutal and personal experiences with the Joker in the Batfamily and to have that explored in interesting ways would have been interesting and to explore their psyches about their traumas with someone who can they can relate i guess. Not for the crush antics. But at least she's nice to him now I guess.


The whole Batman eternal Arc with them was imo completly misshandled.





> Unexplored as it is, the few times that Jason gets to talk to Kate and Steph, it's either dismissal/argumentative from them. I think because it's easy for writers to fit Jason into the role of this loud/annoying guy (though only superficially) in family events and rarely his depth is recognized by the other bats. Jason when interacting with other characters outside bat-fam, he's not put into this role anymore so it allows him to act and been seen as himself. I think.


For me it is still a mystery why they never to mange to write him properly in the family events, while his apparences in other franchises are usually good, even Countdown was way a head of what the batwriters are doing.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s fun how the Superman Office writers bat characters interactions better than the Batman Office.

----------


## G-Potion

How many costumes can you guys think of for Jason's alts in the game?

----------


## G-Potion

> It`s fun how the Superman Office writers bat characters interactions better than the Batman Office.


The Batman Office is too busy thinking of ways to get new characters to the level of established ones in the shortest time.

----------


## Aioros22

You`re asking for shopping lists, G. 

I`d like the Red X alt costume and if it`s him in the comic they might go for an alt Batman. Alt AK would be great as well, but it belongs to another company. 

...you know what? Alt FatherTodd would just be enough.

----------


## G-Potion

Hey some MK characters have up to 5 costumes. I can be demanding.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But yeah, I like all the ones you mentioned. Also, didn't Injustice mobile have Arkham Knight as well?

----------


## Aioros22

In that case  :Wink: 

Standard Red Hood

Arkham Knight

Comic Red hoodie vest + gauntlets

Father Todd

Red X

Ambivalent about two alts:

Batmetal

Movie Robin suit with spear. 

Get to work Boon.

----------


## Aahz

red_x_vs_green_arrow_color_by_sithdavis-d5wzsbf.jpg

13917_746377015421305_7500648831637972022_n.jpg

jason_todd_robin_66_90_day_challenge_by_kyleguilbault-dapm6ja.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> http://phil-cho.deviantart.com/


I think it would have prfered if they had mixed Red Rex with the Arkham Knigh Red Hood costume and not with the Arkham Knigh Costume.

----------


## Aioros22

Maybe, I`d like to see it too.

----------


## G-Potion

Injustice Mobile   :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aahz

> It`s fun how the Superman Office writers bat characters interactions better than the Batman Office.


Yeah the Dick, Barbara, Jason team up in Batman/Superman was way better written than what we get in the Batevents, and Superman as at the moment more Bruce and Damian interaction than the actual Batman books.

----------


## Assam

> Injustice Mobile


On the one hand, Darkseid and Eobard have made the journey from Mobile to Injustice 2. On the other hand, Cass, Jessica Cruz, and Static were playable characters in the Mobile version, and we haven't seen anything about them. So basically, no guarantees. Personally, I hope the suit DOES make the transfer. Arkham Knight may suck as a game, but it's a cool design

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, that does make my fancy. Of course, of course!







I don`t think it`s bigger on the choice poll than the other alts, but as far as marketing goes, this was made to be in a "MK" game.

----------


## G-Potion

https://monst3rsandm3n.tumblr.com/image/152104350247

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

http://dacheck.tumblr.com/post/151007538362

----------


## adrikito

> 


Very funny...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If anyone can pinpoint the issues, I'd be very grateful.

----------


## Aahz

> If anyone can pinpoint the issues, I'd be very grateful.


The second picture is from Batman Annual #13.

----------


## Aahz

The fist one is from Batman #332

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The second picture is from Batman Annual #13.





> The fist one is from Batman #332


Thanks, is always nice to see some fatherly moments of Bruce regarding Jason

----------


## Aahz

Upps I made a Typo, it is of course Batman #432 and not #332.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Saw this on tumblr. Jason's rocket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At his finest.


what issue?

----------


## Desean101101

fca98fbaac614ff413c394d507a2debe.jpg

tumblr_oll3caVRY21vn5es1o1_500.jpg

I love the Supergirl and Jason Todd Ship. I hope they go back to it.

----------


## Alycat

> fca98fbaac614ff413c394d507a2debe.jpg
> 
> tumblr_oll3caVRY21vn5es1o1_500.jpg
> 
> I love the Supergirl and Jason Todd Ship. I hope they go back to it.


I liked it too actually. They were cute together.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thanks, is always nice to see some fatherly moments of Bruce regarding Jason


I have the story where the first san comes from but not from its original publication. You`re gonna love it. It`s a relative intimate story of Batman. Had no idea about the second one but it`s definatly better than the silly drama of Year Three.

----------


## Aioros22

Barr/Davis Jason is the definite "classic" Robin in mainstream Batman comics. A little touch of classic tropes, a little touch of pre crisis Jason but still the post crisis origin. Whoever started knowing Jason since his return would look strange at certain pages but those who started there (whether at the time or later by catching up as I did) but wouldn`t managed no to smile or chuckle at ironic simbolism. This was when he was _happy_. 

For those who came in late ---

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> what issue?


Batman#646

----------


## G-Potion

> Attachment 48394
> 
> Attachment 48395
> 
> I love the Supergirl and Jason Todd Ship. I hope they go back to it.


I like them too. Not necessarily as a ship but more like team-up.

----------


## G-Potion

> Barr/Davis Jason is the definite "classic" Robin in mainstream Batman comics. A little touch of classic tropes, a little touch of pre crisis Jason but still the post crisis origin. Whoever started knowing Jason since his return would look strange at certain pages but those who started there (whether at the time or later by catching up as I did) but wouldn`t managed no to smile or chuckle at ironic simbolism. This was when he was _happy_. 
> 
> For those who came in late ---


What arc or issues with Robin!Jason would you recommend? I want to catch up sometime.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

@t G-Potion

G, you should get the full run on Detective Comics if you manage. The full runs from #s 569-574 and 579-81 and  Batman: Gotham Knights #25 (methinks is the original publication for the start of Year Two. It runs for more issues but Davis is replaced by early Mcfarlane). 

They`re all essential to read what I mean but if I had to place the two best issues is the one where the scan is from (Detective Comics #569 I think, actually) and the very last issue of the run with  My Beginning And My Probable End, which is all kinds of meta for the time. That`s the issue where Jason is recovering from a bullet wound (which was kinda the fault of Batman..) and...well, you gotta read it.

----------


## Aioros22

The mother of all legal adoption debates folks,

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Some interesting history notes about the stories that some have never read before: 

a) Batman`s biggest guardianship battle was between himself, Jason and Nocturna. 

b) Jason is the second Robin to find out who Batman is. The first having been the very brief Lance Bruner. 

c) Jason is the second Robin to wear pants on the suit in mainstream continuity. The first having been an aging Dick, yes I did it on porpuse, (yellow). 

d) Tim`s first introduction follows the exact same pattern of Jason`s original introduction. 

e) Jason was the first of Batman`s partners to want and fashion an identity of his own. Which is weirdly simbolic considering the number of identities he`s taken over the years. 

f) The only time the Joker ever manages to down Jason, let alone touch him, was in Death In The family.

----------


## G-Potion

Aioros22: Thanks. That was an eye-opener. When I first got invested in Jason, my source of info came from a tumblr blog, and boy, was it dismissive of this Jason, because he was apparently "a copy of Dick Grayson". I don't want to spoil myself by looking too much at those pages you posted, but I sure want Lobdell to reintroduce Nocturna. She looks great and sounds great.

----------


## G-Potion

> b) Jason is the second Robin to find out who Batman is. The first having been the very brief Lance Bruner. 
> 
> c) Jason is the second Robin to wear pants on the suit in mainstream continuity. The first having been an aging Dick, yes I did it on porpuse, (yellow). 
> 
> d) Tim`s first introduction follows the exact same pattern of Jason`s original introduction.


Man. Adding that Tim's Red Robin name and suit was also Jason's originally... he sure took after Jason quite a lot.

----------


## G-Potion

Any of you are interested in personality tests? I got Jason's analysis from this blog: http://fictionalcharactermbti.tumblr...8154/dc-new-52

DC: New 52

Red Hood Jason Todd
*ISTP [The Virtuoso]*

ISTPs have a compelling drive to understand the way things work. Theyre good at logical analysis, and like to use it on practical concerns. They typically have strong powers of reasoning, although theyre not interested in theories or concepts unless they can see a practical application. They thrive on action, and are usually fearless. ISTPs are fiercely independent, needing to have the space to make their own decisions about their next step. They do not believe in or follow rules and regulations, as this would prohibit their ability to do their own thing. Their sense of adventure and desire for constant action makes ISTPs prone to becoming bored rather quickly. 

ISTPs are loyal to their causes and beliefs, and are firm believers that people should be treated with equity and fairness. Although they do not respect the rules of the System, they follow their own rules and guidelines for behavior faithfully. They will not take part in something which violates their personal laws. ISTPs are extremely loyal and faithful to their brothers. ISTPs avoid making judgments based on personal values - they feel that judgments and decisions should be made impartially, based on the fact. They are not naturally tuned in to how they are affecting others. They do not pay attention to their own feelings, and even distrust them and try to ignore them, because they have difficulty distinguishing between emotional reactions and value judgments. This may be a problem area for many ISTPs. 

*Strengths*: Energetic | Creative and Practical | Spontaneous and Rational | Know How to Prioritize | Great in a Crisis | Relaxed

*Weaknesses*: Stubborn | Insensitive | Private and Reserved | Easily Bored | Dislike Commitment | Risky Behavior

*Descriptions from 16personalities and Personality Page.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Think this fits? What other personality types would you choose for Jason?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Preview for Injustice issue 3

I guess it might be *spoilers:*
Bruce
*end of spoilers* after all. Then again




> Things don't go quite as planned for the new Suicide Squad, which finds itself having to break out of the Pentagon. All of which leads to a battle between Batmanand Batman?
> 
> While recovering from his injuries, Batman is visited by two allies from the past. But the happy reunion is interrupted by bad news from Superman's prison.

----------


## Aahz

The two allies from the past are obviously Olli and Dinah, and how ever this Batman is he is probaly working for Grodd.

And if it is Jason he seems to be BftC-level crazy  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> Preview for Injustice issue 3
> 
> I guess it might be *spoilers:*
> Bruce
> *end of spoilers* after all. Then again


Thanks.. If the man who kill amanda is Bruce... Maybe is because his past in Injustice changed the character...

Nothing against that... I am fan of Deathstroke.. This is an alternative world.

----------


## kaimaciel

I hope it's not Jason. I'm not a fan of his crazy, psycho phase. If they do put him in the game, I hope they choose a more sympathetic and better version.

----------


## Aioros22

Bruce killing people stone cold? Not impossible, but nah. 

Jason otoh could, depending what he is setting himself to do. It doesn`t have to be a phsyco thing, it`s about the end goal involving the fate of the world.

----------


## Aioros22

Two more things: 

The dialogue. I haven`t followed the book for most of its existence but is that how InjusticeBruce usually sounds? 

This Batman downing Killer Croc. I know Bruce has faced him alot more but it might be a nod to Jason`s history. Down to calling him "too dangerous to even put a bomb on his head" or just pragmatically someone else as "useless". Seems a bit of that higher pitch of sass one wuld find in Jason and not Bruce. But again, I`m not sure how this Bruce usually reads as.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Keep in mind this Batman says is working for "him", making possible he's being manipulated by Grodd.

----------


## Aioros22

True enough, I`m just not sure it would change his usual speech pattern. But I might be looking way too hard on it.

----------


## Aioros22

Found this on tumblr and had to share. Not because of a haha or "I`m right, you`re wrong" but because whoever did this obviously went to trouble to make it coherent and something to think about. 


*Jason Attempts the Socratic Method* 


Batman: Ignoring the law and beating up criminals is not only justified, it’s necessary. The system in Gotham is broken. The police are ineffective, and corrupt, as are the politicians and the courts and businessmen and…everyone, really. 


Red Hood: Uh huh. So when you finish beating these criminals, what do you do with them?

Batman: I take them to the police!

Red Hood: To the corrupt and ineffective police? To be sent through the corrupt courts? Which decide sentences based on laws by the corrupt politicians? Who are bankrolled by the corrupt businessmen? In the broken system?

Batman: Yes.

Red Hood: And what happens to the criminals then?

Batman: If the courts don’t let them go, they usually escape the prison and asylum, and and start murdering and whatnot again. But then I beat them up and bring them to the police again!

Red Hood: So…what you’re saying is that the justice system cannot protect people from criminals, including a bunch of high-powered serial killers. And you beating them up just grants a brief reprieve until they resume their killing spree. Not even a reprieve, really. Prison and the asylum are great places for networking, and the corrupt guards and nurses often help the inmates to continue perpetrating crimes.


Batman: Well.


Red Hood: You said the police are ineffective…does that mean that you’re the only one who can actually take down the worst criminals? You and whatever other superheroes are in the area?

Batman. Yes…

Red Hood: And you believe that violence outside the law is necessary to subdue criminals. And that it is just for you to decide who deserves that violence.


Batman: Indeed.

Red Hood: But you acknowledge that beating criminals and handing them to the police is basically the same as letting them go. It’s like catch and release. 


Batman: When you put it like that.


Red Hood: Do you think that in an unbroken system these serial killers would have gotten the death penalty? Keeping in mind that while some of them might be considered insane, there is precedence for executing insane criminals who cannot otherwise be stopped from killing people. Criminals like, perhaps, the Joker?


Batman: Probably.

Red Hood: But the system in Gotham is too broken to carry out that sentence? 


Batman: Yes.

Red Hood: And you and your hero comrades are the only ones strong enough to, hypothetically, carry that sentence out, anyway?

Batman: Obviously.


Red Hood: Do you…get where I’m going with this…?

Batman: No idea. I just file most of what you say under “crazy and evil.”

Red Hood: ….right. Of course.

----------


## Rise

> Some interesting history notes about the stories that some have never read before: 
> 
> a) Batman`s biggest guardianship battle was between himself, Jason and Nocturna. 
> 
> b) Jason is the second Robin to find out who Batman is. The first having been the very brief Lance Bruner. 
> 
> c) Jason is the second Robin to wear pants on the suit in mainstream continuity. The first having been an aging Dick, yes I did it on porpuse, (yellow). 
> *
> d) Tim`s first introduction follows the exact same pattern of Jason`s original introduction.* 
> ...


I didn't know about the bolded part because I have never read Tim's introduction story. 

I have to say that it's ironic how much Tim took from Jason.

----------


## Rise

To the people who say that "everyone hated Jason" and "no one cared that he died".

Heres a proof on how wrong you are:








Letters pages from Batman 412, which is shortly after Jasons post-Crisis origin revamp in Batman 408:

I love the new Jason Todd origin, by the way. His first origin was much too similar to Dick Graysons and, lets face it guys, it wasnt very original. This latest explanation shows imagination and promises to be a real thriller.  Anne Guerra
I also think were going to like the new Jason Todd.  Brian Jones
On a good note, I like the retelling of Jason Todds first meeting with the Batman. I hope Jason will remain belligerent for awhile, even after he becomes Batmans partner. It will be an interesting change from the idol-worshiping that we can usually expect from Robin.  Adam Schultz

----------


## Rise

Here are a few letters from Batman 413 following Jason’s post-Crisis origin revamp. 

Kevin Lawless writes: “I wasn’t sure I was going to like Jason Todd as a former street punk, but I always despised him as an acrobat, so I decided to give him a try. His first reappearance was enjoyable enough, especially when he hit Batman (which did my heart good), but in his second outing he really impressed.”
Michelle Koller says: “I like the idea of changing Jason’s origin. I never did like the fact that his origin was almost the same as Dick’s. … You also solved Jason’s hair dyeing problem. Ha! You thought we all forgot about that little fact, didn’t you?”
“I think all concerned did a fine job with Jason Todd’s new origin. … I like the idea of Jason as a street smart punk. This could make for some amusing culture at Wayne Manor. He is also much more interesting and likeable and a much more suitable partner for the Batman than the immaculately groomed rich boy Dick has always been. I’ve always felt that Jason wasn’t sufficiently developed to justify his constant presence. A minority of Batman readers are Robin haters. I’m not one of them, but I partially sympathize with them. A cure for this might be for Jason to retain the rough edges of his life on the streets.” – Gary Whelan
Mr. Collins (can I call you Max?), you have rewritten a character I thought was a dead end. Admittedly, the original Jason Todd character read well. He was young. He was refreshingly naive. He made mistakes like all normal people do from time to time. But his origin didn’t quite seem right. … Don’t get me wrong, the new Jason Todd (as well as the “new” Batman) has me excited. Jason Todd has a new beginning and so does the Batman.“ – Roger Case




And here's a eclugy by a priest for Jason:



And there are many more, but I'm too lazy to put them all.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Anybody who says that is just buying a label without the "hassle" of doing what you did. 

They wanted a stunt and fed it down readers throats.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way Rise, great detective work man. Have no idea where you found this online but it can`t be as easy as the usual stuff  :Cool:

----------


## Rise

DC made a mistake and refused to acknowledge it which is why they pushed the "everyone hated Jason Todd because he was baaaad".

It doesn't matter anymore because Jason is here and he deserve the chance to be alive.

----------


## Rise

> By the way Rise, great detective work man. Have no idea where you found this online but it can`t be as easy as the usual stuff


Thanks.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks, Rise! Great read, all of them!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Just FIY 



From https://jaytoddfacts.tumblr.com/
"In the latest issue of Injustice, Bruce, Clark and the others are celebrating Alfred (in the happy universe) and the writer confirmed in his twitter that Jason, Dick, Tim and Damian are all in this panel  :Smile: "

You can now guess who`s who, other than Jason being obviously the one handling Damian the cake. In the face. It seems to me that the likability of Jason being revealed soon is increasing from these last three issues.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## The Whovian

> To the people who say that "everyone hated Jason" and "no one cared that he died".
> 
> Heres a proof on how wrong you are:


Full disclosure, I never cared for Jason as Robin. My favorites to this day are Tim and Damian. Having said that, I love that Jason returned and is the Red Hood. Under the Red Hood is one of my favorite Batman stories and I really like both RHATO series, especially the current one.

----------


## The Whovian

> By the way Rise, great detective work man. Have no idea where you found this online but it can`t be as easy as the usual stuff


Ditto on this

----------


## JasonTodd428

@Rise: Great work but man do I feel old now. I actually remember reading some of those letters back in the day and may even still have the issues in which they appeared. The whole thing still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth even all these years later.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## The Whovian

> 


Some of the greatest pages ever! Thanks for posting this

----------


## The Whovian

> 


LOL! "Work in progress Super-Dude". That's Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, it`s pretty clear what they are referencing there. I`m glad Loedbell is branching up a sort of continuity level for Jason that others are kind of lacking because they don`t have a writer with a Morrison approach. With this sort of creative control, you just simply weed out the actual bad stories and voila. 

That`s some of my favorite pages as well  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

In my mind I like to think this adventure could still happen to a future Jason in the time desplaced narrative. Scarlet is out there, somewhere.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Red Bat Emblem eh?

That said, they're laying it so thick that I feel it won't be Jason.

----------


## adrikito

> Just FIY 
> 
> 
> 
> From https://jaytoddfacts.tumblr.com/
> "In the latest issue of Injustice, Bruce, Clark and the others are celebrating Alfred (in the happy universe) and the writer confirmed in his twitter that Jason, Dick, Tim and Damian are all in this panel "
> 
> You can now guess who`s who, other than Jason being obviously the one handling Damian the cake. In the face. It seems to me that the likability of Jason being revealed soon is increasing from these last three issues.


I like this image.

----------


## The Whovian

> Red Bat Emblem eh?
> 
> That said, they're laying it so thick that I feel it won't be Jason.


Wait, where is this from?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s very much a Under The Red Hood moment. It`s gotta be Jason that is possible that it`s not. 

Thing is, with the game coming out it`s almost surely that it will be and they simply aren`t being that subtle. I`m not sure Boon will risk leaving Jason for a possible third offering when fan demand has been there since the first release.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Wait, where is this from?


The newest issue of the I2 comic

----------


## The Whovian

> The newest issue of the I2 comic


Oh, that's why. I don't read that. Thanks!

----------


## Alycat

Yeah thats obviously Jason in the last few IJ issues.

----------


## Aioros22

It seems the red glow is supposed to be the power running the body suit.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Btw, not to spoil too much but the outcome of the first confrontation between the two Batmen (one leading the new SQ) is rather conclusive in this issue.

----------


## Aahz

> It seems the red glow is supposed to be the power running the body suit.


I hope they make him also capabale without the red glowing stuff.

----------


## Fergus

> Wait, where is this from?


The latest Injustice. All signs point to it being Jason but the dialogue makes me think it's not actually Jason. This person and Bruce are not as close as Jason and Bruce.

Don't know how to post spoilers so can't elaborate but when you read the issue you'll see what I mean.

It's not Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Is it because he calls him "Mr Wayne"?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is odd but the conversation makes abundantly clear that, they've known each other for a long time but that hadn't seen each other for a while.

----------


## Aioros22

There`s beats that seem similar to both UTRH and BOTC. Jason wanting to replace Bruce because he can go ways the other can`t/won`t, his desire to go extra mile to decide the world`s fate when making clear he believes Mr Wayne absolutely failed to capitalize on it. And yes. not even beeing sure which side this new Batman is on, outside of Grood`s manipulation. 

But I`m curious to read in what way others may perceive the opposite, still.

----------


## Fergus

> Is it because he calls him "Mr Wayne"?


Yeah. I got the feeling that they know each other but Jason calling Bruce Mr Wayne or Sir is very off. Whether Jason acknowledges it or not they are family, Bruce is his father and they have that kind of familiarity so it just doesn't follow. 

Yeah there are similar beats to UTRH and BOTC but I don't see Jason calling him Sir or Mr Wayne ever that's what makes me feel it's a misdirect.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah. I got the feeling that they know each other but Jason calling Bruce Mr Wayne or Sir is very off.


It happened before:
Batman #410.jpg

----------


## AJpyro

RHatO Rebirth is out. Go get your copies now!!!

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah. I got the feeling that they know each other but Jason calling Bruce Mr Wayne or Sir is very off. Whether Jason acknowledges it or not they are family, Bruce is his father and they have that kind of familiarity so it just doesn't follow. 
> 
> Yeah there are similar beats to UTRH and BOTC but I don't see Jason calling him Sir or Mr Wayne ever that's what makes me feel it's a misdirect.


I think the chance of misdirection is pretty considerable, even counting the obscure mention of Jason having said it before. What is more, given the usual sass or snark humor from Jay, it doesn`t exactly feel off, it just feels weird since we aren`t use to see any of them refer to him that way. So, is it a nod, sass or just throwing people off their game? Well, we gotta wait and see.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Fergus

> I think the chance of misdirection is pretty considerable, even counting the obscure mention of Jason having said it before. What is more, given the usual sass or snark humor from Jay, it doesn`t exactly feel off, it just feels weird since we aren`t use to see any of them refer to him that way. So, is it a nod, sass or just throwing people off their game? Well, we gotta wait and see.


I considered that it might just be Jason being his usual snarky self but still....... it just seems out of character for Jay.

----------


## Fergus

> 


Seems the old outlaws still hold a special place in fans hearts   :Smile:

----------


## okiedokiewo

Happy Deathday!

----------


## Aioros22

32 years ago today (what the frag!) the most shameful stunt in Comics book history took happening. Instead of being the mark of defeat it became the mark of true Rebirth of one of the finest returns of the industry. 

It only happens twice in your life, so make it count.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## NK1988

Is this a good comprehensive list of Jason Todd comics?
http://www.comicbookherald.com/red-hood-reading-order/

I'm trying to find a few Bat Family ongoings to follow and having just re-watched and thoroughly enjoyed Under the Red Hood, I figured Red Hood and the Outlaws was a natural choice. But I figured having a more comprehensive history of the comic character would help instead of just the rough outline.

Plus, I should just read Morrison Batman in general it seems.

Also what exactly is the deal with Rebirth? I've been told it isn't really a reboot. So do I need to read the old "Outlaws" series to understand the new?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Those Jason references

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzTdsL7aOg

----------


## Aahz

> Also what exactly is the deal with Rebirth? I've been told it isn't really a reboot. So do I need to read the old "Outlaws" series to understand the new?


Rebith is kind of a soft reboot with the goal to merge the new 52 with the old continuity. 
When comes to Outlaws, sofar you don't have to read the old series to understand the new one.

----------


## NK1988

> Rebith is kind of a soft reboot with the goal to merge the new 52 with the old continuity. 
> When comes to Outlaws, sofar you don't have to read the old series to understand the new one.



Gotcha. Thank you.

----------


## Aioros22

> Those Jason references
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzTdsL7aOg


"I`m no Jason Todd!"

Oh lel.

They totally mixed the crowbar and the electric chair (DITF and Joker returns). This is begging for Jason to have some sass interactions with those two  :Cool:  not feeling the roughness of Joker`s voice so far but they actually made the LetoJoker look crazier. Props to that.

----------


## Aioros22

> Gotcha. Thank you.


If you want the compreehensive list and understand the road to Jason`s maturity to Rebirth, you should. Have fun.

----------


## Aioros22

Injustice 2 #13

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Rise

> Those Jason references
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzTdsL7aOg


Joker's design had me rolling.

Thanks for sharing, DT. I'm going to send this to Jan because he will _totally_ love it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Those Jason references
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzTdsL7aOg


Sigh. I hope Jason has a good role. Tired of these insults.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Any idea what is the condition of this Bruce? Why did he go down that easily I wonder.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Most of the time I see people citing Jason's safe house in B&E as proof of his classiness. A shame that this Hong Kong safe house is less known though. It's _exotic_.

----------


## Aioros22

Far as I know, he simply lost the fight. I`m _guessing_ the red glow of the other Batman means the suit is powered somewhat but nothing has been especified yet. I do agree about the safehouses. Jason got _style_.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh is totally a powered suit. _That's the game's gimmick._

----------


## G-Potion

from http://at9design.tumblr.com/post/409...-night-redhood

----------


## G-Potion

More of the Hong Kong safehouse. I love that he hides guns in all those bushes.

HK1.jpg

HK2.jpg

HK3.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, that Injustice vídeo with the Joker has a little spoiler dudes. 

"He`s pathetic". 

_Present tense muthas!_

----------


## G-Potion

from https://careamorran.tumblr.com/image/159916356623


from http://haranone.tumblr.com/post/159895847463

----------


## Aioros22

> More of the Hong Kong safehouse. I love that he hides guns in all those bushes.
> 
> HK1.jpg
> 
> HK2.jpg
> 
> HK3.jpg


Winnick gave him safehouses but Loedbell made it aesthetic  :Cool: 

Bawling: 

Tim: *Talking to Jason* Have you ever noticed that our personalities are basically amplified versions of the parts that make up Bruce’s personality. 

Me-The Workaholic Detective 

You-The violent but naturally gifted one with walls up. 

Damian-Intense and harsh, skilled and a genius. 

Jason: What about Captain Sunshine? 

Tim: Dick is what Bruce visualizes when he thinks of what he could of been if he dealt with his parents death better.

Jason: So, he adopted kids that if all combined into one room, they would basically power ranger themselves into one big Bruce? 

Tim: *Nods* 

Jason: That sicko.

----------


## G-Potion

Batfam x Voltron from http://akanekari.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Go Robins! Under the Hood

----------


## G-Potion

Go Robins! Battle of the Robins

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Rise

> Most of the time I see people citing Jason's safe house in B&E as proof of his classiness. A shame that this Hong Kong safe house is less known though. It's _exotic_.


His HK safe house was the best.

----------


## Rise

> By the way, that Injustice vídeo with the Joker has a little spoiler dudes. 
> 
> "He`s pathetic". 
> 
> _Present tense muthas!_


Another spoiler:

Someone in twitter mentioned that Boon has said in yesterday stream that the dlc will include absolute fan favourites  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

Batman Beyond #7  with credits to dietrich:







Always interesting to see "Tim" being his own character in the comic Beyond verse. Still, they should`va switch the costumes (but I get why they didn`t in order to see the visual progression of the suit). Likewise interesting to see the Year Zero golden age inspired suit. Begs to mention wondering which of the two gets to have the "Joker Return" - esque DITF in their history.

----------


## Aioros22

> Another spoiler:
> 
> Someone in twitter mentioned that Boon has said in yesterday stream that the dlc will include absolute fan favourites


As long he`s got story-mode and character interactions, I`m fine. But yeah, they`ll use Red Hood to push interest for the DLC.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

The Red X mask works really well. it doesn`t even need the chest piece  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

http://sounri-moved.tumblr.com/


http://dar-draws.tumblr.com/


http://runmonsterun.tumblr.com/

----------


## The Whovian

> The Red X mask works really well. it doesn`t even need the chest piece


I don't like it. The Batman logo is much better

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> As long he`s got story-mode and character interactions, I`m fine. But yeah, they`ll use Red Hood to push interest for the DLC.


DLC characters don't get roles in story mode, only arcade endings, clash and intro interactions.

----------


## Aioros22

Then they better make him a exception, people have been waiting too long for little.

----------


## Rise

> As long he`s got story-mode and character interactions, I`m fine. But yeah, they`ll use Red Hood to push interest for the DLC.


I just know that he is going to be a DLC the moment he won his latest poll by landslide.

Jason isn't one of the most requested characters, he *is* the most requested and there's no way that they are going waste him in the main roster. It's unfortunately how game companies work.  





> 


The Red X costume looks really weird to be honest.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## CPSparkles

Damian and Jason

----------


## dietrich

This didn't work




so.......

----------


## Assam

> 


BWAHAHAHA! Love it!

----------


## kaimaciel

jason dick fear.jpg
race1.jpg
race2.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> jason dick fear.jpg
> race1.jpg
> race2.jpg


Jason is (maybe together with Terry) imo the funniest character in this webcomic.

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## kaimaciel

> Jason is (maybe together with Terry) imo the funniest character in this webcomic.


I agree. 

By the way, are my images really small or am I the only person who sees them tiny? Everyone else's images are big, but when I post one, no matter it's size, it always shows up very small.

----------


## Aioros22

I just Insert Image from URL and then deactivate "Retrieve remote file and reference locally".

----------


## Aioros22

Rocking that Crockett swagger

----------


## kaimaciel

Am I the only who thinks Robin Dick from the Judas Contract looks a lot like Jason's costume from N52?
ca64f7bd5165e9e43ffdac3f586552b4.jpg

Hey! It worked! Thanks, Aioros22!

----------


## Aioros22

Dick Grayson & Jason Todd/ Attack on Titan crossover


Jason Todd and Dick Grayson by Rico on Lofter

----------


## Aioros22

> Am I the only who thinks Robin Dick from the Judas Contract looks a lot like Jason's costume from N52?
> ca64f7bd5165e9e43ffdac3f586552b4.jpg
> 
> Hey! It worked! Thanks, Aioros22!


Yeah it does. He totally got the best versions to play with  :Cool:

----------


## dietrich

> Dick Grayson & Jason Todd/ Attack on Titan crossover
> 
> 
> Jason Todd and Dick Grayson by Rico on Lofter


That last one. Harsh Jay that's just brutal.

----------


## dietrich

> Rocking that Crockett swagger


Look's like Dick isn't the only family member who got game.

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.pinterest.pt/source/kazumscale.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

> That last one. Harsh Jay that's just brutal.


It`s all part of the roleplay. It`s never just physical with Dick, it`s also emotional  :Wink: 

What the frag did I just said?

----------


## dietrich

> It`s all part of the roleplay. It`s never just physical with Dick, it`s also emotional 
> 
> What the frag did I just said?


Your word's man lol also in that picture his gun is pointing at Dick's crotch. Jason is SAVAGE!

----------


## Aahz

> Am I the only who thinks Robin Dick from the Judas Contract looks a lot like Jason's costume from N52?
> Attachment 48873
> 
> Hey! It worked! Thanks, Aioros22!


Not really imo it is a pretty Generic robin look, Jasons N52 costume had a more armoured look, and these angle shaped golden things (no idea how to call them) at his chest and legs.

And the thing that makes the Judas contrack costume most stad out from other costume, that's imo how far the red vest/tunic reaches below the belt, is something Jasons costume also doesn't share.

----------


## Aioros22

I`ll just stop my way out with the out of context.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## AJpyro

> Dick Grayson & Jason Todd/ Attack on Titan crossover
> 
> 
> Jason Todd and Dick Grayson by Rico on Lofter


Ya know because is Gotham, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some Titans underground.

----------


## G-Potion

http://jaykore.tumblr.com/post/16025...od-its-been-so

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

http://actoracht.tumblr.com/post/148844025469

----------


## G-Potion

http://rabbit1225.tumblr.com/post/14...86%8A%E7%86%8A




"Mine"

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/noobde

Ed Boon
@noobde

.* I just had "Bat out of Hell" for dinner.*

. *For those wondering or asking... Injustice 2 DLC info coming soon. We suspect you will like what you hear!*





The man keeps pushing the hype.

----------


## AJpyro

My red hood rebirth came in. And it is good. Also you know that part before you get to actual reading where they show a panel or page?

This one was hilarious.

----------


## Aioros22

The last issue or the new one? I don`t think the preview for #10 came out yet. At least that I noticed but I`m a hairhead.

----------


## Rise

> https://twitter.com/noobde
> 
> Ed Boon
> @noobde
> 
> .* I just had "Bat out of Hell" for dinner.*
> 
> . *For those wondering or asking... Injustice 2 DLC info coming soon. We suspect you will like what you hear!*
> 
> ...




Just reveal him already, Boon!  :Mad: 





> My red hood rebirth came in. And it is good. Also you know that part before you get to actual reading where they show a panel or page?
> 
> This one was hilarious.


Wait, the trade is already out?

----------


## AJpyro

> Wait, the trade is already out?


Yeah. Since last week on IST.

Also twitter links aren't showing up.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, they are now for me. That`s why I just transcripted the tweets, it wasn`t showing in my post. 

Oh, you meant the trade!

----------


## Rise

> Yeah. Since last week on IST.
> 
> Also twitter links aren't showing up.


Finally! I have been waiting for it.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Look's like Dick isn't the only family member who got game.






He likes to bring home the point straight up.

----------


## Aioros22

Fitting that some threads and discussions today brought me to these pages.

----------


## Aioros22

Unreal, I know.

----------


## Aioros22

For the completist in you, it`s from Detective Comics #551

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

IS HERE

https://twitter.com/InjusticeGame/st...79218852835329

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Only Roy is missing from the game

----------


## btmarine23

Injustice 2 Red Hood DLC..excited for that.

----------


## Savatewolf

Now all we need is a Premier skin for Roy then we have the og RHATO team and if we can get a Bizarro Skin for superman and an Artemis one for Wonder woman ugh that would be so cool

----------


## Aioros22

*
I knew it!*

----------


## Aioros22

Interestingly enough, I like how the design mimics RATHO`s current pallete. Red Hood is mostly saturated hues with only the hood contrasting in strong color.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m just imagining the dialogue possibilities now:

*Red Hood* - Eh, you`re supposed to be Robin?

Damian - At least i didn`t die!

*Red Hood* - I least I didn`t kill one of our own. 

..but give me a second and that might change..*reloads*


Joker - Refusing to stay down just ruins the whole joke!

*Red Hood* - Here`s one. You`re in a gun free zone right now.

----------


## dietrich

We got Jason finally in injustice




Edit 

Oops sorry it's already on there. Anyway Yeaaaaa.

----------


## dietrich

> I`m just imagining the dialogue possibilities now:
> 
> *Red Hood* - Eh, you`re supposed to be Robin?
> 
> Damian - At least i didn`t die!
> 
> *Red Hood* - I least I didn`t kill one of our own. 
> 
> ..but give me a second and that might change..*reloads*
> ...


Personally i hope he doesn't go there cos i don't need reminding of that S**t 

Plus I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that Nightwing is in this hence why Damian is wearing Robin again. Plz Ed you gave me Robin, you've given me Red Hood Nightwing will be perfection.

----------


## nightbird

> Personally i hope he doesn't go there cos i don't need reminding of that S**t 
> 
> Plus I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that Nightwing is in this hence why Damian is wearing Robin again. Plz Ed you gave me Robin, you've given me Red Hood Nightwing will be perfection.


They already went there with Damian and Bruce talking about how Dick died, which was awful.

----------


## Kalethas31



----------


## G-Potion

Hell yeah! Jason looks good, his walking animation is pretty on point as well.

----------


## Aioros22

The I got sass on my pockets animation?

----------


## dietrich

Damian and Jason

----------


## Rise

He is finally here and he looks absolutely badass.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> The I got sass on my pockets animation?


That one.  :Big Grin:  Also, no bat emblem. Just what I want.

----------


## G-Potion

> I`m just imagining the dialogue possibilities now:
> 
> *Red Hood* - Eh, you`re supposed to be Robin?
> 
> Damian - At least i didn`t die!
> 
> *Red Hood* - I least I didn`t kill one of our own. 
> 
> ..but give me a second and that might change..*reloads*
> ...


Pretty apt. Do some more, mate.  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

Starfire is back so she's probably going to be pissed about Dick. And I don't think Jason would be pleased with that either. So much drama.

----------


## G-Potion

> Damian and Jason


More fight 



from http://baotam-ng.tumblr.com/post/149289807978

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## dietrich

> More fight 
> 
> 
> 
> from http://baotam-ng.tumblr.com/post/149289807978


I love their relationship. Damian is a shit and Jason treats him like a kid and doesn't take him seriously or take his bait like Tim does.

I think that he understands Damian's issues.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

from https://0yongyong0.tumblr.com/post/1...B8%A1%E5%8C%96

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


Medri's design is so underrated

----------


## G-Potion

It's very good. Shame not many artists can pull it off.

----------


## G-Potion

> 




Sorry I couldn't resist.   :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

I`m left wondering if the background shown in the reveal is supposed to be actually used in the game because it sure looks an abandoned wharehouse. 

Could it be the very same?

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

> 


Potentially getting sub zero, Raiden, and Beast Boy over Nightwing. I cant even. Booon!!!!!!!

----------


## Aahz

The Arkham Knight Design was imo cooler than the Injustice one. Wondering if Jason will be just a gun fighter or if he will also use other weapons.

Also intersting that he doesn't has a symbol on his chest.

----------


## Alycat

> The Arkham Knight Design was imo cooler than the Injustice one. Wondering if Jason will be just a gun fighter or if he will also use other weapons.
> 
> Also intersting that he doesn't has a symbol on his chest.


Thanks to the gear system I bet we're getting the Arkham Knight design. I'm definitely using that one.

----------


## Aahz

I just realised that the Injustice Jason has a dagger or knife strpped to his leg, hopefully he can use it and not just the guns.

----------


## G-Potion

> I just realised that the Injustice Jason has a dagger or knife strpped to his leg, hopefully he can use it and not just the guns.


Me too. There's already Deadshot so Jason should have a different repertoire. Would love some dagger moves and explosives. Poison too. All-Blades would make him stand out more but I'm not confident we'll get it.

----------


## G-Potion

That was fast. From http://sdelarts.tumblr.com/post/160352430747

----------


## G-Potion

RHATO#3 aftermath from http://crimsonhorror.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

More for team Challengers.







From http://meereswiederkaeuer.tumblr.com...o-just-like-to

----------


## dietrich

Bruce training Jason to take his place Dark Knight the last Crusade

----------


## dietrich

This made me laugh

----------


## PЯOVOSҬ



----------


## G-Potion

From http://eskimosheep.tumblr.com/post/1...97%A5%E5%9B%BE

----------


## G-Potion

From http://naoegdr.tumblr.com/post/148993313728

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

https://sdelarts.tumblr.com/


_Robin No More by Jonathan Piccini_

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/CyborgNachte

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


Sucks there's not a lot of figures for Jason. That Hush pne was a limited edition and is expensive, the BfTC is from a story I'd like to forget, The Outlaws one has some questionable design choices and the AK Red Hood was a GS exclusive.

I was hoping for an Icons Red Hood but the line got killed before it could happen.

----------


## KrustyKid

> https://sdelarts.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> _Robin No More by Jonathan Piccini_


That last one is plain awesome

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Fantastic news

http://blog.comichron.com/2017/05/so...ith-april.html



Also, Jason's got game even out of fiction

----------


## Aahz

tumblr_lf3lwdIOn31qcamw1o1_500.jpg

tumblr_n2vx32kfmz1qh2lw2o1_1280.jpg

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Rise

> Fantastic news
> 
> http://blog.comichron.com/2017/05/so...ith-april.html
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Jason's got game even out of fiction


I'm glad to see RHATO doing well. It's honestly the only reason why I'm still reading comics.

And man, the reactions over Jason reveal was so crazy and made me so hyped despite the fact that I'm not even a gamer.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Fantastic news
> 
> http://blog.comichron.com/2017/05/so...ith-april.html
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Jason's got game even out of fiction


Glad RHATO is doing well! Very deserved!

And yeah, I don't know about twitter but tumblr sure is exploding with Injustice Jason.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

From https://wonder-fuu.tumblr.com/post/1...happy-birthday

----------


## G-Potion

So few Ducra fanarts...




From http://wendysnape.tumblr.com/post/14...hy-but-i-think

----------


## Aioros22

Love the list display. RATHO is in good company  :Cool:

----------


## Caivu

Art by Tyler Kirkham from an upcoming RHatO Annual:

Screenshot_20170507-111419.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Finally. Was told about this annual awhile ago but no idea when and how. Neat! Thanks, Caivu.

----------


## G-Potion

Ohhh looks like it started from here.

----------


## Rise

> So few Ducra fanarts...


Durca! I really miss her.

----------


## Rise

> Art by Tyler Kirkham from an upcoming RHatO Annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170507-111419.jpg


Awesome news. I wonder if it is the the new vs old Outlaws storyline Lobdell talked about.

----------


## G-Potion

It's kinda awesome that looking at Tyler Kirkham's instagram, his Red Hood arts are among the most popular.

----------


## Alycat

I have to say I'm pleased and impressed by how Jason is loved in different mainstream media like games and movies.He's probably the Robin that has the best success there since Dick gets treated terribly, Tim doesn't exsist , and they made Damian awful.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I am honestly confused by the Dick-Jason Rivalry. Or should I say, the hatred some writers infused when pitting Jason against Dick. Dick was one of the few people who defended Jason in regards to his final act as Robin. Really good story material is over looked when ignoring that part of Dick and Jason's history. And didn't Dick go after Joker with the intent to kill at one point in the late 90's or early 2000's?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s just classic rivality between brothers with different ethos of the same teachings. Think of Leonardo and Raphael. But as far as Winnick was concerned one of the reasons Jason did disliked Dick was exactly because he felt neither him or Bruce avenged him when he would have if it happened the other way around. 

I don`t recall Dick going after him with that intent as far as actual story. He did kill Joker when he was goaded to in a fit of rage by the mention of Jason`s name, tho.

----------


## Aioros22

> Art by Tyler Kirkham from an upcoming RHatO Annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170507-111419.jpg


Wondering if the RATHO Annual will show the new and older Outlaws confrontation that Loedbell has allured to in a recente podcast.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/CameronBowen/sta...82898507718656

Tim's  VA from Young Justice is voicing Jason in Injustice.

I was hoping Jensen would reprise the role.

----------


## Aioros22

He can warm up for when Jason pops up in Young Justice as well. 

It`s a matter of time.

----------


## dietrich

Dick found Jason's current safehouse



Wanna know a secret?

----------


## pansy

> Dick found Jason's current safehouse
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna know a secret?


Poor Damian hauhauha.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm actually not a fan of Jensen as Jason's voice actor.

----------


## gwhh

What issue is this from?

https://instagram.com/p/BKgQT7FACXc/

Who the bigger stud. Jason Todd OR Roy Harper:

http://exploringthetimelab.blogspot....rt-1-kori.html

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/206-...ovels/60395121

----------


## G-Potion

> What issue is this from?
> 
> https://instagram.com/p/BKgQT7FACXc/


Supergirl #35 I think.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I can't remember if it was magic that allowed Jason to do that, or drugs.

----------


## G-Potion

> I can't remember if it was magic that allowed Jason to do that, or drugs.


He was on venom.

----------


## kaimaciel

5506676-tumblr_ofmxg5cg561qhb02oo1_500.jpg

Aww! So cute.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

For those who aren`t aware, while Red Hood might get the skin for the console (one of many I hope  :Smile: , the mobile version Arkham Knight is playlable for shoots and kicks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## Alycat

They are going to have explain how there is still crime in this world.

----------


## The Whovian

> 


Awesome!!!

----------


## Aioros22

> They are going to have explain how there is still crime in this world.


While humanity thrives, crime takes no holidays. Besides, Superman has done a lousy job at it. 

Interesting they mention how the Lazarus Pit comes with a cost on your mental health/soul like in Arrow and some Batman related stories. Interesting because it`s either usually very subtle or just left vague or to the device of the reader. It`s equally a nice retcon tool related to a few piss poor Pre Flashpoint material if some other writer decides to ever mention some of those. 

I do like my headcanon that Lost Days < Talia takes Jason to Ducra and it`s that training that completely overlaps any drawbacks of the Pit.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://bacco85.tumblr.com/

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/CameronBowen/sta...82898507718656
> 
> Tim's  VA from Young Justice is voicing Jason in Injustice.
> 
> I was hoping Jensen would reprise the role.


I was too, but I'm curious to see what Bowen's take on Jason will be like. 

It wouldn't even be the first time someone's moved from voicing Tim to voicing Jason. Troy Baker anyone?

----------


## Alycat

> While humanity thrives, crime takes no holidays. Besides, Superman has done a lousy job at it. 
> 
> Interesting they mention how the Lazarus Pit comes with a cost on your mental health/soul like in Arrow and some Batman related stories. Interesting because it`s either usually very subtle or just left vague or to the device of the reader. It`s equally a nice retcon tool related to a few piss poor Pre Flashpoint material if some other writer decides to ever mention some of those. 
> 
> I do like my headcanon that Lost Days < Talia takes Jason to Ducra and it`s that training that completely overlaps any drawbacks of the Pit.


I know, but geez Id be too afraid to take that chance with evil superman. I'mma chalk it up to Bruce slipping.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Looking good! This hood design is appropriately intimidating.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Poor Jason. No one ever complains when the Power Rangers wear it.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Looking good! This hood design is appropriately intimidating.


If this Jason was resurrected years after his murder, it would explain his younger voice actor. He didn’t age. 

It’s possible he’s Damian’s age for all we know.

----------


## Aahz

> If this Jason was resurrected years after his murder, it would explain his younger voice actor. He didn’t age. 
> 
> It’s possible he’s Damian’s age for all we know.


They were never really consistent with the ages, based on the Inujustice Comics Damian should be 18 by now, but he looks still like a teen in the game. 

And pre flashpoint it would have technically also been plausible for Jason to be around Tims age or younger ...

btw. I really would like to see a rough timeline for what happened before Injustice Year 1.

----------


## adrikito

> 


hahahahaha. I like this

----------


## kaimaciel

The first 20 minutes of gameplay and story. Spoilers! Jason is mentioned.

----------


## Aioros22

> Poor Jason. No one ever complains when the Power Rangers wear it.


That`s because they`re busy dying laughing on the inside. A good friend is the one who slaps you in the face and says "no".

----------


## Aioros22

http://waiting4codot.tumblr.com/post...bruce-the-idea

_Link opens an audio file: listen to it!_

Script transcription: 

NO PUNNING ON THE JOB
Jason and Bruce

The idea made me laugh, so I recorded it.

Written by Codot.



JASON: So whaddya think? Should we go in through the front?
BRUCE: I dont know. Somethings not right about this.
JASON: Yeah, I know what you mean. I got a real bat feeling about this.
BRUCE: 
JASON: 
BRUCE: Go wait in the car.
JASON: Aw cmon! That was funny!
BRUCE: GO WAIT IN THE CAR.
JASON: Lame.
BRUCE: Heh heh heh heh bat feeling that was good.


Have fun

----------


## Aioros22

This issue was like..

http://lightningstrikes-art.tumblr.com/


Onions. Onions everywheree

----------


## twilit13

I prefer him as the red hood. his robin days were pretty dumb. I mean, stealing the tires off the batmobile?

----------


## G-Potion

> I prefer him as the red hood. his robin days were pretty dumb. I mean, stealing the tires off the batmobile?


Prefer Red Hood but disagree about Jason as Robin. Stealing bat tires was ballsy and as well as making Batman laugh.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I prefer him as the red hood. his robin days were pretty dumb. I mean, stealing the tires off the batmobile?


An iconic and great moment.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://waiting4codot.tumblr.com/post...bruce-the-idea
> 
> _Link opens an audio file: listen to it!_
> 
> Script transcription: 
> 
> NO PUNNING ON THE JOB
> Jason and Bruce
> 
> ...


Fun! Let's switch to incorrect quotes then. I'm running out of fan arts.

From http://allpeopleareincredible.tumblr...-vandalism-and




> *Bruce*: What do you call murder, vandalism, and sabotage?
> *Jason*: Hobbies.
> *Bruce*: ...
> *Jason*: ...that I do not engage in.

----------


## G-Potion

From http://bbqfish.tumblr.com/post/17081863557

----------


## G-Potion

Saw this here https://lysical.tumblr.com/post/1582...ave-to-ask-you




> *Police officer*: Sir, I'm going to have to ask you for some id. 
> *Jason*: Fine. Here. 
> *Police officer*: This is a death certificate. 
> *Jason*: It's all I've got on me.

----------


## Aioros22

> I prefer him as the red hood. his robin days were pretty dumb. I mean, stealing the tires off the batmobile?


Blasphemy has no power here!

Stealing the tires of the fancy super car is iconic, man. It shows a couple of things you might be missing: 

Guts. Grit. Balz. That Crime Alley while respectfull, doesn`t exactly fear Batman like the organized families do and instinct to survival that Jason has over anyone save Bruce. But it`s not just stealing the tires, Jason as Robin also did the following: 

Saved the Trinity against Mongul. 

Was active duty during the original Crisis.

Saved Batman more than once. 

Took down Killer Crock and Two-Face.

Helped save Dick Grayson, Raven and shut down Brother Blood`s Church. 

Was the first character to detective that Roy and Chesire had a big history.  

Helped save Gordon during Millenium from his Hunter. 

Saved Batgirl from getting Popeyed.

Got out of the hospital bed with a broken leg to help save the world and the superheroes against the mind controlled crowds during Legends - after being beaten by an entire mob. 

Was part of solving a big case where he met Sherlock Holmes. 

Was the heir of the throne and moving force behind DKR. 

I could go on, but the thing is..



Jason was the best Robin. Evah.

----------


## dietrich

> I prefer him as the red hood. his robin days were pretty dumb. I mean, stealing the tires off the batmobile?


It take brass nuts to steal the tires off the Batmobile. I liked that a lot.

Liked Damian sticking up for Jason in the Injustice 2 story mode.

----------


## Aioros22

> It take brass nuts to steal the tires off the Batmobile. I liked that a lot.
> 
> Liked Damian sticking up for Jason in the Injustice 2 story mode.


I feel Damian`s debate with Bruce mirrored quite a bit of Jason`s to be honest.





Their interaction is the one I want to play the most. I feel if there`s a line between the two is that Jason likely wouldn`t want to serve under anyone or be part of a huge enterprise like that. In ters of personal freedom I mean. As in, he`s usually more rebelish than the pragmatic Damian who learned to operate things the way the League of Assassins do. 

If I had to ilustrate the difference, Damian in his argument to Bruce mentions killing every criminal, whereas Jason would likely be more personal about it. Not sure how to explain it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> It take brass nuts to steal the tires off the Batmobile. I liked that a lot.
> 
> Liked Damian sticking up for Jason in the Injustice 2 story mode.


I'll have to look that up. Thanks for the heads up.

I know you're referring to Injustice 2, but there's so much that could be mined between Jason and Damian if they ever interacted.

----------


## RedBird

> I feel Damian`s debate with Bruce mirrored quite a bit of Jason`s to be honest.
> 
> 
> Their interaction is the one I want to play the most. I feel if there`s a line between the two is that Jason likely wouldn`t want to serve under anyone or be part of a huge enterprise like that. In ters of personal freedom I mean. As in, he`s usually more rebelish than the pragmatic Damian who learned to operate things the way the League of Assassins do. 
> 
> If I had to ilustrate the difference, Damian in his argument to Bruce mentions killing every criminal, whereas Jason would likely be more personal about it. Not sure how to explain it.


I think Damians approach and what makes sense for his character history as being part of the League of Assassins is that there is a larger divide in his mind. A, you are either with us or against us group mentality. Whereas Jason (if we are going by his initial UTRH plans) was very honest about the state of things, at least on Gotham. It wasn't about total annihilation of crime, but the control of it and lethal means as a final resort for extreme cases. Basically Damians history with lethal actions as a solution, is from an environment and teaching that was enforced on him that taught him this ideal. Whereas Jasons was a product of both his environment (seeing Gotham through the eyes of an underprivileged citizen) and of his own moral agency developing as he witnesses the injustice of Gotham by actively participating in the "broken" system.

It makes sense Damian would join another society with morals he agrees with. He came from a much more community based governing faction.

Whereas Jason can play nice in a team, he is a loner and he seems to give off a more anarchic vibe.

I wonder if we will get an answer about the dlc characters "alignment" in the game. I mean if they have dialogue it would give away some things surely.

----------


## dietrich

> I feel Damian`s debate with Bruce mirrored quite a bit of Jason`s to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their interaction is the one I want to play the most. I feel if there`s a line between the two is that Jason likely wouldn`t want to serve under anyone or be part of a huge enterprise like that. In ters of personal freedom I mean. As in, he`s usually more rebelish than the pragmatic Damian who learned to operate things the way the League of Assassins do. 
> 
> If I had to ilustrate the difference, Damian in his argument to Bruce mentions killing every criminal, whereas Jason would likely be more personal about it. Not sure how to explain it.


No you said it perfectly and I completely agree. 
Jason is more fight the system freedom fighter type who would value the individuals right to freedom.

I mean the LOA is not dissimilar to the Regime so It's easy for this Damian to identify and sympathise with their world view. I don't see Jason joining up rather I see him as a disruptor who would be totally at odds with what Superman's is doing.

----------


## dietrich

> I'll have to look that up. Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> I know you're referring to Injustice 2, but there's so much that could be mined between Jason and Damian if they ever interacted.


I enjoy their comic interactions and like that Jason makes an effort to reach out to him.
In Batman Inc you could see that he felt bad for Damian when Bruce wanted to ship him back to Talia.

----------


## Alycat

> I enjoy their comic interactions and like that Jason makes an effort to reach out to him.
> In Batman Inc you could see that he felt bad for Damian when Bruce wanted to ship him back to Talia.


I would actually like to see more interactions between them. They have a lot of differences but quite a few similarities as well. Also it tends to be hilarious.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...16239980716032

Hell yeah.

----------


## Alycat

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...16239980716032
> 
> Hell yeah.


Those comments are thirsty for a love interest.

----------


## The Whovian

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...16239980716032
> 
> Hell yeah.


Awesome!!!!

----------


## AJpyro

> https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...16239980716032
> 
> Hell yeah.


Sweet the old friends and the new. And yet Arsenal is the still the annoying one.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: Akimao

----------


## Rise

> I think Damians approach and what makes sense for his character history as being part of the League of Assassins is that there is a larger divide in his mind. A, you are either with us or against us group mentality. Whereas Jason (if we are going by his initial UTRH plans) was very honest about the state of things, at least on Gotham. It wasn't about total annihilation of crime, but the control of it and lethal means as a final resort for extreme cases. Basically Damians history with lethal actions as a solution, is from an environment and teaching that was enforced on him that taught him this ideal. Whereas Jasons was a product of both his environment (seeing Gotham through the eyes of an underprivileged citizen) and of his own moral agency developing as he witnesses the injustice of Gotham by actively participating in the "broken" system.
> 
> It makes sense Damian would join another society with morals he agrees with. He came from a much more community based governing faction.
> 
> Whereas Jason can play nice in a team, he is a loner and he seems to give off a more anarchic vibe.
> 
> I wonder if we will get an answer about the dlc characters "alignment" in the game. I mean if they have dialogue it would give away some things surely.


This is really a good analysis, Redbird.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

Btw. what do think they will do with Jasons hair in Injustce? Black, red with or without white streak ...

----------


## G-Potion

> Btw. what do think they will do with Jasons hair in Injustce? Black, red with or without white streak ...


Think they'll go with black. I'd love the white streak but am not confident they'll do it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Never showing him out the helmet is likely as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> Never showing him out the helmet is likely as well.


Then Arkham Knight costume better be in.  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> Never showing him out the helmet is likely as well.


Maybe in the game, but in the comics we will very likely see his face (assuming that he is the "evil Batman").

----------


## G-Potion

Source http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/post/160537246070

----------


## Alycat

Also I'm glad for people who've missed Kory and Roy but As someone who want a fan of the first Outlaws I'm weary especially with Kory. She and Roy haven't met yet since the break up and she's already been back with Dick/ Roy talking to Dick like they've always been friends and treating Donna like the love of his life.I'm already wondering how the Lazarus contract is going to handle the 3 meeting at once  and I wonder how Lobdell is going to handle those changes.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also I'm glad for people who've missed Kory and Roy but As someone who want a fan of the first Outlaws I'm weary especially with Kory. She and Roy haven't met yet since the break up and she's already been back with Dick/ Roy talking to Dick like they've always been friends and treating Donna like the love of his life.I'm already wondering how the Lazarus contract is going to handle the 3 meeting at once  and I wonder how Lobdell is going to handle those changes.


Maybe he'll just ignore the romantic complications? After all this looks to be what Roy and Kory are to Jason, so whatever between Roy and Kory, Titans can deal with it. Now I'm more interested in Roy's reaction to Jason breaking up with him.

----------


## Aahz

> Source http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/post/160537246070


I don't think that they will bring Roy as DLC character, but technically it shouldn't be big problem to make Roy Skin for Green Arrow ...

----------


## G-Potion

It's funny how Jason went from that sleek Arkham Knight suit to this DIY disaster.






Granted, his sense of style is still top notch.

----------


## Alycat

> Maybe he'll just ignore the romantic complications? After all this looks to be what Roy and Kory are to Jason, so whatever between Roy and Kory, Titans can deal with it. Now I'm more interested in Roy's reaction to Jason breaking up with him.


Lol good point about Roy and Jason. I remeber reading that issue and thinking about what a harsh break up it was even if Jason was doing it for Roys sake. That said Roy has his old posse and Batman besties back anyway so maybe he won't care as much.

----------


## pansy

> It's funny how Jason went from that sleek Arkham Knight suit to this DIY disaster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted, his sense of style is still top notch.


Well ... Alfred would be disappointed. Master Jason you know how to sew.

----------


## Alycat

That's some good detail on the outfit. Let me just once again express my disappointment at Arkham Knight's short dlc. Jason's part played so well and deserved a much longer package.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well ... Alfred would be disappointed. Master Jason you know how to sew.



Alfred: "Master Jason, this is unneceptable! I know you know how to sew!"

Jason: "...shouldn`t you know how to make a proper pankace, _chef_?"

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I own a copy of Red hood Lost days and it was great.

----------


## Rise

> It's funny how Jason went from that sleek Arkham Knight suit to this DIY disaster.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Granted, his sense of style is still top notch.


My God, Jason is a total disaster lol.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

toixx.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Source: Reconisan

----------


## G-Potion

Source: ivanisinsane

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is interesting to think about how despite the little representation Jason has outside of comics, he has managed to headline his own book for six years now, with only three relaunches (that mostly correspond to editorial wide shakeups than sales boosting gimmicks) while Bucky despite having a much higher profile due the movies can't hold a stable book.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is interesting to think about how despite the little representation Jason has outside of comics, he has managed to headline his own book for six years now, with only three relaunches (that mostly correspond to editorial wide shakeups than sales boosting gimmicks) while Bucky despite having a much higher profile due the movies can't hold a stable book.


How has his book been if I may ask?

----------


## G-Potion

Love how these two are comfortable with each other under Grek Pak's writing.

----------


## G-Potion

Batman Gotham Knights #34. I cry every time.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## nightbird

> 


Such a nice fanart. I'm saving it. Not enough Jason in my life.

----------


## G-Potion

These batfam apologies are seriously awesome.

----------


## Rise

This honestly made me laugh. 

And man, GK #34 is just.  :Frown: 

There was also another moment in GK that was really sad:

----------


## Aioros22

> Is interesting to think about how despite the little representation Jason has outside of comics, he has managed to headline his own book for six years now, with only three relaunches (that mostly correspond to editorial wide shakeups than sales boosting gimmicks) while Bucky despite having a much higher profile due the movies can't hold a stable book.


I dunno, what is seriously missing as major representation? Showing up in a tv show under his own name (this despite TAS Robin being straight up Jason in everything but name but I guess it would qualify) and in a major film release? Bucky doesn`t star on his own video game or a major animated release, altho he has shown up in the tv shows.  

I don`t think he has his own title right now, he was showing up as the main guy in the Thunderbolts relaunch.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I dunno, what is seriously missing as major representation? Showing up in a tv show under his own name (this despite TAS Robin being straight up Jason in everything but name but I guess it would qualify) and in a major film release? Bucky doesn`t star on his own video game or a major animated release, altho he has shown up in the tv shows.  
> 
> I don`t think he has his own title right now, he was showing up as the main guy in the Thunderbolts relaunch.


Actual promotion from both editorial and WB, Jason barely has merchandise and is generally passed over in benefit of the other Robins outside comics. Bucky on the other hand has a major push due being treated more like Dick's equivalent and being a major player on two feature films so far.

----------


## Alycat

Eh outside of the movies, I wouldn't say Bucky gets much of a push. He's barely shows up in any animated features, no games, and was part of a terrible team book. That's about it. Marvel really hasn't capitalized on his new popularity. 

Hell I wouldn't say Dick has had a major push until recently. He was barely in the games until Arkham Knight, he's always dead in elseworlds, or is always Robin. The animated movie portrayal was heavily criticized as well.

----------


## Aioros22

http://www.weibo.com/2167720510/E3J1...d1494615930610

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Eh outside of the movies, I wouldn't say Bucky gets much of a push. He's barely shows up in any animated features, no games, and was part of a terrible team book. That's about it. Marvel really hasn't capitalized on his new popularity. 
> 
> Hell I wouldn't say Dick has had a major push until recently. He was barely in the games until Arkham Knight, he's always dead in elseworlds, or is always Robin. The animated movie portrayal was heavily criticized as well.


Marvel barely has games nowadays but let's not forget how Bucky took over as Cap for a while, the relatively major roles he's had on a few of storylines and his appearances on other media. 

They've tried to capitalize on his popularity, that is what makes interesting to use as metric when talking about Jason. In a way, the current handling of Bucky reminds me of the way Jason was before Flashpoint, with editorial throwing things to the wall to see what sticks.

----------


## Aioros22

> Eh outside of the movies, I wouldn't say Bucky gets much of a push. He's barely shows up in any animated features, no games, and was part of a terrible team book. That's about it. Marvel really hasn't capitalized on his new popularity. 
> 
> Hell I wouldn't say Dick has had a major push until recently. He was barely in the games until Arkham Knight, he's always dead in elseworlds, or is always Robin. The animated movie portrayal was heavily criticized as well.


It`s give and take but being in two major movies makes for a lot. 

I concur in the actual promotion aspect and showing up in a major film release but the later to me is a matter of time. The seeds are already there to be taken in such a direction.

----------


## Aioros22

http://saadirfan.deviantart.com/

----------


## Aahz

> Hell I wouldn't say Dick has had a major push until recently. He was barely in the games until Arkham Knight, he's always dead in elseworlds, or is always Robin. The animated movie portrayal was heavily criticized as well.


His Live action film might give him a push (if they finally get the DCEU on track). 
Appatrt from this is he the one with the miost appearences in animated series, and his roles in the animted movies became bigger while they reduced Damians a little.

But Dick gets definitally a way bigger push in comics at the moment.

But maybe we get more of Jason if his Injustice DLC does sell good.

----------


## Aioros22

Friendly reminder that Jason`s later reputation as Robin wasn`t anything to sneer at when famous assassins and international Guild leaders already knew of him and that`s *before* any of the world training he gets to take later on.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Small _post your examples_ challenge for the day: 

. How often has Jason used a katana?

. Any especifics regarding who taught him? Was it the All Caste? (drawing blank and I don`t have the volumes with me), was it Shiva? 

. Jason is Multilingual. Can you name all the different languages he speaks, fluently or otherwise? Off hand there`s German and some Portuguese. I`m thinking Russian as well, what else?

----------


## Aahz

> How often has Jason used a katana?


Only during this story arc (RHatO #29-#31), he might have lost obe during his fight with Frankenstein (at least he had only one afterwards), and the other was destroyed by one of Lobos henchman.




> Jason is Multilingual. Can you name all the different languages he speaks, fluently or otherwise? Off hand there`s German and some Portuguese. I`m thinking Russian as well, what else?


German and Russian came up in Lost Days, and Portuguese in Eternal. I don't think that it was really shown that he can speak something else. But I would guess that at least Frensh, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Chinese and maybe Arabic are very likely.

----------


## G-Potion

> Small _post your examples_ challenge for the day: 
> 
> . How often has Jason used a katana?


He wasn't seen using it but he was carrying around one in Future's End.

----------


## G-Potion

It hurts to look at BR&E again but those look like katanas.

----------


## G-Potion

Apparently this is the kind of TV that Jason and Kory watch.   :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

I only vaguely recall Jason sporting a katana during the Lobo affair. Did he end up using it against him? Not sure how that would help against someone like Lobo at all.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://kazumscale.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://kannoponta.tumblr.com/post/115481504865

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://petnursy.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://petnursy.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://naratani.deviantart.com/

----------


## dietrich

Making friends with Gargoyles
based on RedHood and the outlaws #6

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://rymslim.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Jason why u upside down.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Appropriate after RHATO#10.

----------


## Aioros22

_Counting bodies like.._

These two have done things, haven`t they?

----------


## pansy

> Appropriate after RHATO#10.


That made me cry.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

. Love how cathartic this panel is for future devolopment of Jason`s connection to the LOA, Talia and his ressurection. Hck, even his bout with Ras. Great Easter Egg. 

. Love that up until the end of the fight Jay is seemingly the one taking on most numbers, marginal as it is. It adds up to his "doesn`t let up" line from Dick.

. Love that another of my top 3 favorite Robins evah is here bringing a lot of attitude to the mix.

----------


## Rise

> Appropriate after RHATO#10.


This is seriously a good art. Wow.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So, the newest issue of Injustice shows that the "Evil Batman" is working for *spoilers:*
Talia
*end of spoilers* 

Yeah, there's no way that isn't Jason under the cowl.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah that's not surprising although the other half of the issue certainly was for me. what a crazy universe they built Injustice to be.

----------


## kaimaciel

I honestly hope it's not Jason. Not a fan of his psycho phase. Considering what we know Talia can do, it could be the Heretic.

BTW, can anyone tell me how I to hide spoilers?

----------


## G-Potion

There's a chance that Jason will be written abysmally but for now I love how he's working with Talia again. They have a unique relationship.

----------


## AJpyro

> I honestly hope it's not Jason. Not a fan of his psycho phase. Considering what we know Talia can do, it could be the Heretic.
> 
> BTW, can anyone tell me how I to hide spoilers?


you use [] brackets and type SPOIL in front of your sentence and /SPOIL and the end inside the brackets.

----------


## kaimaciel

Thanks!

Well, I'm curious to know how this is gonna end, especially after listening to the dialogue in Injustice 2.

*spoilers:*
Scarecrow taunts Damian on how he couldn't save his mother and we see Ras al Ghul during Black Adam's arcade ending
*end of spoilers*

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Thanks!
> 
> Well, I'm curious to know how this is gonna end, especially after listening to the dialogue in Injustice 2.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Scarecrow taunts Damian on how he couldn't save his mother and we see Ras al Ghul during Black Adam's arcade ending
> *end of spoilers*


Huh. Interesting.

----------


## Aioros22

Interesting. Jason (it was already obvious it`s him, the whole exposition to Bruce mirrored his own from UTRH) doesn`t scream psycho for me, at least in terms of the horrid "BFTC/Year Without" characterizations. He looks and sounds pragmatic, not erratic. So he may be mind controlled or work for someone else but he`s no bananas. 

That being said, Red Hood`s oficial Injustice bio does hint to side effects from the Lazarus waters (as seen in Arrow as well) so, who knows.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aahz

Some one posted this over in the DC Comics Board.

----------


## Aioros22

Haha nice!

Here`s another fan film I overly enjoyed. Another cool athmosphere, if not a bit less because of Joker - altho it`s sorta of creatively disturbing picturing Joker in this sort of random anybody can be it sort of way. Voice is down path and makes the cast clear. 

Jason of course looks great in either fillm. I don`t like the mouthpiece here but I`m loving the way they did the eyes! That`s comic book eyes right there.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## Rise

Jason is the troll Batman? Oh my, this will be hilarious if it's true. 

Btw, It seems that TT's today issue did a small reference to the old Outlaws. Don't know if it's true tho since I don't read TT.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason is the troll Batman? Oh my, this will be hilarious if it's true. 
> 
> Btw, It seems that TT's today issue did a small reference to the old Outlaws. Don't know if it's true tho since I don't read TT.


Which Titan book? Kory is in one and Roy is in another.

----------


## Aioros22

About the latest chapter in the injustice Comic:

*spoilers:*
Damian is freed by Talia and a sister who is refered to as "The daugther of the Bat" by their mother. First reaction goes to "oh, another kid of Bruce" but the next one is "Oh, gunBatman is revealed as a ally to Talia and he`s the other Batman". So basically if it turns out to be Jason which is kind of telling at this point - like 85% if not a bit more - then the girl could be his kid, engineered to younf adulthood and all 
*end of spoilers*[/QUOTE]

Basically, woa, as if Jay didn`t had enough to rub on Damian.

----------


## fanfan13

> About the latest chapter in the injustice Comic:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Damian is freed by Talia and a sister who is refered to as "The daugther of the Bat" by their mother. First reaction goes to "oh, another kid of Bruce" but the next one is "Oh, gunBatman is revealed as a ally to Talia and he`s the other Batman". So basically if it turns out to be Jason which is kind of telling at this point - like 85% if not a bit more - then the girl could be his kid, engineered to younf adulthood and all 
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Basically, woa, as if Jay didn`t had enough to rub on Damian.


lol sounds like a ridiculous fanfiction but *spoilers:*
at least to me it's less cringy than her being Bruce's actual daughter. Talia is so not storing Bruce's sperm all this time.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rise

> Which Titan book? Kory is in one and Roy is in another.


TT = Teen Titans.

I saw the page, TT and Titans have a face off where Roy said that he and Kori are old friends which is a obvious reference to the old Outlaws. 

Definitely glad that it was referred.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> lol sounds like a ridiculous fanfiction but *spoilers:*
> at least to me it's less cringy than her being Bruce's actual daughter. Talia is so not storing Bruce's sperm all this time.
> *end of spoilers*


As long execution is half decent, I`m actually hoping it is. Sometimes you gotta add new elements to stir it up. Imagine the character study potential steeming from that twist.

----------


## Aioros22

> TT = Teen Titans.
> 
> I saw the page, TT and Titans have a face off where Roy said that he and Kori are old friends which is a obvious reference to the old Outlaws. 
> 
> Definitely glad that it was referred.


Never forgotten  :Cool:  :Wink:  have to check that out.

----------


## Alycat

> TT = Teen Titans.
> 
> I saw the page, TT and Titans have a face off where Roy said that he and Kori are old friends which is a obvious reference to the old Outlaws. 
> 
> Definitely glad that it was referred.


I caught that as well. Which I guess is good since it would be more awkward for it not to be acknowledged.  But I laso don't think they said more than than that to eah other in the issue. This crossover has been really lacking in the interaction bits for everyone though.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Awesome. It's gonna be my new wallpaper.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The page in question

----------


## Alycat

> The page in question


Yep. That's all its probably getting until the annual I believe? I guess Lobdell will want to go more indepth with that himself. Also geez everyone  seems kinda aggressive right there.

----------


## dietrich

> TT = Teen Titans.
> 
> I saw the page, TT and Titans have a face off where Roy said that he and Kori are old friends which is a obvious reference to the old Outlaws. 
> 
> Definitely glad that it was referred.


Double post

----------


## dietrich

> lol sounds like a ridiculous fanfiction but *spoilers:*
> at least to me it's less cringy than her being Bruce's actual daughter. Talia is so not storing Bruce's sperm all this time.
> *end of spoilers*


That was a twist. Much prefer if it was Jason's just so I could see Bruce's face. Taila you Scarlet woman.
With Talia on the scene I'm convinced that fake Batman is Jason. I was hoping it wasn't since that would be obvious as hell.

----------


## Aioros22

Man, it`s great to see the water boys but savage Garth doesn`t exactly work. I also have to laugh to whoever disliked RATHO`s look for Roy because that not an inprovement one bit.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

> Man, it`s great to see the water boys but savage Garth doesn`t exactly work. I also have to laugh to whoever disliked RATHO`s look for Roy because that not an inprovement one bit.


Its the hat. I don't know why they insist on it.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s not only the hat done wrong, it`s the glasses, it`s the color palette, I dunno. All together doesn`t work. Rocafort`s hat and red color scheme at least could work in capable hands.

----------


## Alycat

> It`s not only the hat done wrong, it`s the glasses, it`s the color palette, I dunno. All together doesn`t work. Rocafort`s hat and red color scheme at least could work in capable hands.


I'm okay with the color palette, since I guess they wanted that shade of red to separate him from Wally. But there is too much black and not enough red. I agree they could've left Rocafort's  stuff, but I still would've complained about the hat. Actually maybe he has the same problem Wally does where it depends on the person drawing. Booth' Wally looks bad to me but everywhere else is fine. Maybe the same applies to Roy.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> I'm okay with the color palette, since I guess they wanted that shade of red to separate him from Wally. But there is too much black and not enough red. I agree they could've left Rocafort's  stuff, but I still would've complained about the hat. Actually maybe he has the same problem Wally does where it depends on the person drawing. Booth' Wally looks bad to me but everywhere else is fine. Maybe the same applies to Roy.


Yeah, way too much black, gigantic ass green glasses (I`m aware that`s not a fault related to only "Titans") and two tatoos when one should be enough. I enjoy the one tatoo because in archery, particularly the eastern schools, there`s a tradition to have a tatoo on your main shooting arm. But this just makes it generic.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

_Shining happy people swaging_

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://evinist.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://evinist.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://orangeslippers.tumblr.com/

----------


## scary harpy

> Source: http://evinist.tumblr.com/





> Source: http://evinist.tumblr.com/





> Source: http://orangeslippers.tumblr.com/


I don't know where you find these or how long you must have to look for them but *Thank You*!

----------


## Aioros22

Does anyone know if they keep tabs on DLC sales together or by each character and if so, if they release that information to the public?

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6AM...ature=youtu.be

Boon claims that Red Hood was the most requested character

EDIT:

Issue 11 variant is *amazing*

----------


## Aioros22

Jebus!! 

Talk about vintage European comic style.

----------


## Aioros22

Great Batman looking Afleck, Joker and Red Hood!

----------


## Rise

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6AM...ature=youtu.be
> 
> Boon claims that Red Hood was the most requested character
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Issue 11 variant is *amazing*


This seriously the best variant from this arc.

And Boon claiming that Jason is the most requested doesn't suprise me because I already said that he was at the top of the list.

----------


## Alycat

Jason being the most requested character isn't a surprise. I will say that as much as I enjoy the game, the starting roster  could've been much better. Jason, Starfire, Dick, and several other people could've easily been better fits than what we got.

----------


## adrikito

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6am...ature=youtu.be
> 
> boon claims that red hood was the most requested character
> 
> edit:
> 
> Issue 11 variant is *amazing*


i like this..

----------


## adrikito

> Great Batman looking Afleck, Joker and Red Hood!


I am watching *Under Red Hood* again..  :Cool:   :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

I`ve been getting a kick watching these fan projects and pitches. It`s insane how creative you get (have) to be with a low budget. Jason being the most requested isn`t surprising at all but I was reading how Starfire was up there too, guess this kind of settles it. Glad for both, thought. 

The only downside in all of this is being a DLC since they didn`t repeat any of the previous ones for the console. I hope Jason`s popularity and further request makes him liable to be the a exception in the next sequel as a starting playlable character, especially if he ends up showing up in the Comic plot.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## pansy

> 


Oww Jason Costume is incredible.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Rise

New pic of I2 Red Hood.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Caivu

TRINITY-12.jpg

*TRINITY #12*

Written by ROB WILLIAMS • Art and cover by CLAY MANN • Variant cover by BILL SIENKIEWICZ

“DARK DESTINY” part one! Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman must turn to the mystic trinity of Dead Man, Zatanna and John Constantine when Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro are sacrificed into the depths of the Pandora Pits by Circe and Ra’s al Ghul.

On sale AUGUST 16 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Rise

Awwwe Caviu was ahead of me lol.

Thanks anyway  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

I'm super excited for both of those pics!!!!!!!

----------


## kcomics

Jason Todd is probably a pretty cool character, although I don't really know, because I haven't read those comics. I do think it would be pretty cool, though, if Jason and Joker started some kind of rivalry similar to Joker and Batman. I know the stakes would be higher, since Jason wants to kill the Joker, but maybe Joker could even be the protagonist this time and the series could explore a whole lot of uncharted territory, like Elseworlds? Jason Todd could even team up with the original Red Hood from another dimension and take on Joker. Jason and Joker fighting the Joker; now I would like to see that.

Jason did meet the Jokester during final crisis, so I guess the possibilities are endless with Batman stories.

----------


## kaimaciel

> TRINITY-12.jpg
> 
> *TRINITY #12*
> 
> Written by ROB WILLIAMS • Art and cover by CLAY MANN • Variant cover by BILL SIENKIEWICZ
> 
> “DARK DESTINY” part one! Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman must turn to the mystic trinity of Dead Man, Zatanna and John Constantine when Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro are sacrificed into the depths of the Pandora Pits by Circe and Ra’s al Ghul.
> 
> On sale AUGUST 16 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T


Wait, does that mean Jason, Artemis, and Bizarro are going to be merged together into one abomination?!

----------


## Alycat

> Wait, does that mean Jason, Artemis, and Bizarro are going to be merged together into one abomination?!


We will call it Jartezzo.

----------


## adrikito

> TRINITY-12.jpg
> 
> *TRINITY #12*
> 
> Written by ROB WILLIAMS • Art and cover by CLAY MANN • Variant cover by BILL SIENKIEWICZ
> 
> “DARK DESTINY” part one! Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman must turn to the mystic trinity of Dead Man, Zatanna and John Constantine when Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro are sacrificed into the depths of the Pandora Pits by Circe and Ra’s al Ghul.
> 
> On sale AUGUST 16 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T


WOW... But  the outlaws are not in the image.. What a shame...

----------


## Aioros22

> New pic of I2 Red Hood.


Someone clue me in, is that Jason`s hideout or already a known background? Because if it`s new...#InjusticComic

----------


## Aioros22

> Attachment 49682
> 
> *TRINITY #12*
> 
> Written by ROB WILLIAMS • Art and cover by CLAY MANN • Variant cover by BILL SIENKIEWICZ
> 
> “DARK DESTINY” part one! Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman must turn to the mystic trinity of Dead Man, Zatanna and John Constantine when Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro are sacrificed into the depths of the Pandora Pits by Circe and Ra’s al Ghul.
> 
> On sale AUGUST 16 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T


3 Trinity together? Pretty stoked for this one  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason Todd is probably a pretty cool character, although I don't really know, because I haven't read those comics. I do think it would be pretty cool, though, if Jason and Joker started some kind of rivalry similar to Joker and Batman. I know the stakes would be higher, since Jason wants to kill the Joker, but maybe Joker could even be the protagonist this time and the series could explore a whole lot of uncharted territory, like Elseworlds? Jason Todd could even team up with the original Red Hood from another dimension and take on Joker. Jason and Joker fighting the Joker; now I would like to see that.
> 
> Jason did meet the Jokester during final crisis, so I guess the possibilities are endless with Batman stories.


Endless possibilities aside, Jason and Joker to have a rivality (more from Joker`s side sometimes) and a type of relationship that is not shared by anyone else, save Batman and Harley. This was well explored in Under The Red Hood, Arkham Knight, Outlaws #0, the Death Of The Family tie.in, Joker`s Daugther, etc. 

Wouldn`t mind seeing the jokester again, tho.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Someone clue me in, is that Jason`s hideout or already a known background? Because if it`s new...#InjusticComic


That's the Batcave stage.

----------


## Aioros22

I didn`t play the first outing so I was on the fence with all the pipes and tires. Looked a manufactored styled cave to me. 

Thanks for the info Dark.

----------


## Alycat

> 3 Trinity together? Pretty stoked for this one


That said this was  a missed opportunity to not include the awesome China Trinity. I would love to Kenan interact with the Outlaws. Also double sad that the Supergirl-Nightwing-Donna trinity and Tim-Kon-Cassie trinity no longer exist.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So that screenshot about Jason? It looks a lot like a special move Erron Black has on MKX where he slides, launching the enemy into the air and shooting at them before they fall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmP_GbF1Nbo

The funny thing? That is a movement only available on Erron's _Outlaw_ Variation.

----------


## Rise

Jason's famous red hamlet made an appearance in JL/Power rangers crossover.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> So that screenshot about Jason? It looks a lot like a special move Erron Black has on MKX where he slides, launching the enemy into the air and shooting at them before they fall
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmP_GbF1Nbo
> 
> The funny thing? That is a movement only available on Erron's _Outlaw_ Variation.


Since I haven`t played Harley`s IJ before (which some draw a similarity) that`s what first came to mind since Errol was one of my mains  :Wink:  nice catch!

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason's famous red hamlet made an appearance in JL/Power rangers crossover






He sure loves the dramatic flair.

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## G-Potion

> Jason's famous red hamlet made an appearance in JL/Power rangers crossover.


Now I wanna see Jason wear the Red Ranger's helmet. Lips and everything. Better yet, let him drive the Tyrannosaurus Dinozord.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## G-Potion

> I don't know where you find these or how long you must have to look for them but *Thank You*!


Thanks! It's nothing compared to how long these artists must have spent working on them. They made me want to do my own fanart of Jason.  :Embarrassment:

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## G-Potion

> New pic of I2 Red Hood.


Thanks for the find, Rise! Very Erron Black indeed!  :Cool:

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## G-Potion

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6AM...ature=youtu.be
> 
> Boon claims that Red Hood was the most requested character
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Issue 11 variant is *amazing*


The best!!

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## Aioros22



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## G-Potion

> 


Dick's son is Red Hood and dressed like Deathstroke? Haha.

----------


## Aioros22

Quite the family history, isn`t it? 

How about Dick`s son, trained by Jason with Deathstroke`s gear and tech?

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## Aioros22



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## Aioros22



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## Aioros22

Character voices aside and a much cruder use of narrative this was definatly the highlight of the whole previous volume of Deathstroke. Both for the credible coreograpy and the lip service.

----------


## Aioros22



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## Alycat

Now you've made me want to see them team up or something again since Deathstroke has a good writer now.

----------


## Aioros22

Priest embelishes things a tad but he`s one heck of a writer who adores to challenge his readership. I`d be very much interested in how he would tackle a character like Jason. 

Which Office does his title fall in?

----------


## G-Potion

> Priest embelishes things a tad but he`s one heck of a writer who adores to challenge his readership. I`d be very much interested in how he would tackle a character like Jason. 
> 
> Which Office does his title fall in?


As luck would have it, RHATO and Deathstroke are under one editor, Alex Antone. 

PS: Don't know about Priest but apparently, Tyler Kirkham was roped into drawing RHATO Annual, and he was the artist for N52 Deathstroke. I think this editor knows what fans want.   :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Seeing as Titans is also edited by the guy, maybe a crossover with the Outlaws too, eventually.

----------


## Alycat

I'm way more iffy about a Titans crossover with how  bland and boring that book is but it would still be interesting to see Artemis and Donna interact and I guess Dick/ Roy/ and Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, right now I`m more interested in crossovers with other Trinity or the formet Outlaws. Titans hasn`t been exciting to me. Which is a shame since I really like Abnett`s work (Hercules and Aquaman) but what you gotta do?

----------


## sakuyamons

I really don't want to see Lobdell working with the Titans ever again. and besides, I don't see much in common, Nightwing could appear on RHATO if they want to show the Jason-Dick dynamic. 

But I'm really interested in the Outlaws/Trinity crossover! I trust Manapul won't do the typical 'Trinity looks down on other teams' thing that we see on other comics.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, right now I`m more interested in crossovers with other Trinity or the formet Outlaws. Titans hasn`t been exciting to me. Which is a shame since I really like Abnett`s work (Hercules and Aquaman) but what you gotta do?


Read it anyway if your like  me and DC refuses to give Wally another book  :Frown: 




> I really don't want to see Lobdell working with the Titans ever again. and besides, I don't see much in common, Nightwing could appear on RHATO if they want to show the Jason-Dick dynamic. 
> 
> But I'm really interested in the Outlaws/Trinity crossover! I trust Manapul won't do the typical 'Trinity looks down on other teams' thing that we see on other comics.


That is the worst thing for writers to do. It's bad when its the JL vs the Titans. it gets extra dumb when it's the Titans vs the Teen Titans when they should be the most understanding group. That said I understand groups being skeptical of the Outlaws since they can only go by Batman's word and maybe Diana if she ever brings up Artemis.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I really don't want to see Lobdell working with the Titans ever again. and besides, I don't see much in common, Nightwing could appear on RHATO if they want to show the Jason-Dick dynamic. 
> 
> But I'm really interested in the Outlaws/Trinity crossover! I trust Manapul won't do the typical 'Trinity looks down on other teams' thing that we see on other comics.


First, Lobdell never wrote the Titans, he wrote the _Teen_ Titans

Second, Manapul isn't writing the crossover, Rob Williams is.

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## Aioros22



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## Alycat

> 


I fully agree with Max on hoping they make Jason change up the game and be unique. I had actually fought another deadshot online before watching that video and it was pew pew for days. Pew Pew is not fun.

----------


## Aioros22

I absolutely do no want him to play as Deadshot either but I think they`re smart to not go that route. Deadshot right now is among the most used characters online (if not the top one) exactly because it`s noob and spam friendly and the Gear system is pretty much costum made for him. Every fighting game got one or two characters like that. But it gets stale and boring after awhile. 

I want playing with Red Hood to be more challenging and rewarding than that and I kind of vision the studio taking the chance to make him of the most balanced fighters in the game. Strong build up, good screen hits but not as exageratted as Deadshot and the main points being his close-mid range game. That`s Deadshot`s Achilles Heel, he`s got one of the weakest close range in the entire roster. 

Basically I want Red Hood to play strategically and smart but bringing to the fold hard hitting power for rewarding experience. And the Gear System is made for him as well anyhow, so I`m good.

----------


## Alycat

> I absolutely do no want him to play as Deadshot either but I think they`re smart to not go that route. Deadshot right now is among the most used characters online (if not the top one) exactly because it`s noob and spam friendly and the Gear system is pretty much costum made for him. Every fighting game got one or two characters like that. But it gets stale and boring after awhile. 
> 
> I want playing with Red Hood to be more challenging and rewarding than that and I kind of vision the studio taking the chance to make him of the most balanced fighters in the game. Strong build up, good screen hits but not as exageratted as Deadshot and the main points being his close-mid range game. That`s Deadshot`s Achilles Heel, he`s got one of the weakest close range in the entire roster. 
> 
> Basically I want Red Hood to play strategically and smart but bringing to the fold hard hitting power for rewarding experience. And the Gear System is made for him as well anyhow, so I`m good.


Fully agree with you. On another note I really love all the character intros and interactions, so I can't wait to see Jason's with Bruce, Damian, Superman, and Joker.

----------


## Aahz

*RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #13*

Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Mike McKone, variant cover by Guillem March.

"The Life of Bizarro," part two! Bizarro is dead...or is he? To save Bizarro's life, Red Hood and Artemis must turn to Lex Luthor, Bizarro's creator, who claims he can resurrect their fallen friend. But what plans does Luthor have for his one-time companion? The battle for Bizarro begins here!

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on August 9.

----------


## Alycat

> *RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #13*
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Mike McKone, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "The Life of Bizarro," part two! Bizarro is dead...or is he? To save Bizarro's life, Red Hood and Artemis must turn to Lex Luthor, Bizarro's creator, who claims he can resurrect their fallen friend. But what plans does Luthor have for his one-time companion? The battle for Bizarro begins here!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on August 9.


Hmm not feeling the cover, but Im glad we're finally getting Bizzaro/Luthor stuff.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #1
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art and cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
“Brothers in Arms”! When Red Hood discovers a new wave of criminal activity in Gotham City with a traveling circus at its epicenter, he recruits Nightwing to help the Outlaws infiltrate the big top! Can the two would-be brothers put their differences aside and crack the case? Or will their division be the harbinger of their demise?
On sale AUGUST 30 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T+

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## Alycat

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> “Brothers in Arms”! When Red Hood discovers a new wave of criminal activity in Gotham City with a traveling circus at its epicenter, he recruits Nightwing to help the Outlaws infiltrate the big top! Can the two would-be brothers put their differences aside and crack the case? Or will their division be the harbinger of their demise?
> On sale AUGUST 30 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T+


 Holy Crap I'm excited for this.

----------


## Aahz

Nice maybe we get finally a dynamic for Dick and Jason established.

But I'm not reall excited for their appearence in Trinity.



*TRINITY #12*

Written by Rob Williams, art and cover by Clay Mann, variant cover by Bill Sienkiewicz.

"Dark Destiny," part one! Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman must turn to the mystic trinity of Dead Man, Zatanna and John Constantine when Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro are sacrificed into the depths of the Pandora Pits by Circe and Ra's al Ghul.

32 pages, $2.99, in stores on August 16.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

From Injustice




> INJUSTICE 2 #8
> Written by TOM TAYLOR
> Art by BRUNO REDONDO and JUAN ALBARRAN
> Covers by DALE KEOWN
> Ra’s al Ghul presents his terrifying ultimatum. When Batman reveals the location of al Ghul’s secret lair, his teammates are furious to learn how he knows. *The Dark Knight is reeling from the return of an old friend.* And then he’s off to recruit perhaps the most powerful man on the planet who isn’t Superman.
> On sale AUGUST 16 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T • DIGITAL FIRST


So they will finally unveil Jason?

----------


## Alycat

> From Injustice
> 
> 
> 
> So they will finally unveil Jason?


 That's honestly the only person it could be. Also I'm excited about the annual,but I wish Soy was doing the art. Dick looks strange on the cover, but everyone else looks fine.

----------


## Rise

> *RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #13*
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Mike McKone, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "The Life of Bizarro," part two! Bizarro is dead...or is he? To save Bizarro's life, Red Hood and Artemis must turn to Lex Luthor, Bizarro's creator, who claims he can resurrect their fallen friend. But what plans does Luthor have for his one-time companion? The battle for Bizarro begins here!
> 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on August 9.


Oh my, the outlaws vs Luther? Jan is going to be so happy about this.  :Big Grin:

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## G-Potion

August is going to be a treat!

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## G-Potion

> That's honestly the only person it could be. Also I'm excited about the annual,but I wish Soy was doing the art. Dick looks strange on the cover, but everyone else looks fine.


Tyker Kirkham's Red Hood is very popular though. I'd say a lot of fans get their wish with this annual.

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## Aioros22

Througly excited for all the solicits. Bizarro custody battle will make the Outlaws clash with Luthor (is he still financing his League?), finally a whole story with Dick-Jason dinamic as the main selling focus and a metting between the major Trinity of the DCU. 

About the later, it`s possible their role will be secondary but just the taste of cool interactions is enough to wet my wallet for now.

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## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> “Brothers in Arms”! When Red Hood discovers a new wave of criminal activity in Gotham City with a traveling circus at its epicenter, he recruits Nightwing to help the Outlaws infiltrate the big top! Can the two would-be brothers put their differences aside and crack the case? Or will their division be the harbinger of their demise?
> On sale AUGUST 30 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T+


Sweet!! Wonder if this is at all inspired by Nightwing Brothers in Blood. Please retcon the hell out of it Lobdell.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Please, it doesn`t even have to be retconned. It`s lost in time, only known for Time Masters. But seriously, no harm foul on Jones, I doubt he even cares or enjoys the thing with all the backstage sheenigans and bicketing about where the characters stood up. 

More interesting is Ma Gunn`s sign being right below the center of the cover, working as a subtitle. It links directly to Jason`s backstory in the streets, where he was schooled of his moral code in contrast to Dick`s. True enough, that`s the major point of the story.

----------


## G-Potion

Is this a treat because August is Jason's birth month?   :Cool:

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## Alycat

Dick and Jason are having a big August month. And yeah my excitement is about finally getting someone to touch on Dick and Jason's relationship. Thank goodness. I hope Lobdell does Dick well.

----------


## The Whovian

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #1
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art and cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> “Brothers in Arms”! When Red Hood discovers a new wave of criminal activity in Gotham City with a traveling circus at its epicenter, he recruits Nightwing to help the Outlaws infiltrate the big top! Can the two would-be brothers put their differences aside and crack the case? Or will their division be the harbinger of their demise?
> On sale AUGUST 30 • 48 pg, FC, $4.99 US • RATED T+


Oh yeah! This looks sweet!

----------


## pansy

> Dick and Jason are having a big August month. And yeah my excitement is about finally getting someone to touch on Dick and Jason's relationship. Thank gooness. I hope Lobdell does Dick well.


Brothers in Arms!love when they are treated like family

----------


## Rise

> *More interesting is Ma Gunn`s sign being right below the center of the cover*, working as a subtitle. It links directly to Jason`s backstory in the streets, where he was schooled of his moral code in contrast to Dick`s. True enough, that`s the major point of the story.


Nice catch! I didn't even notice and I hope this means that Ma Gunn is showing up. 

The august solicits made me so excited. The Outlaws vs Luther? The annual? And Trinity seems actually intriguing? A big YES from me.  :Cool:

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## Aioros22

Really digging the detail here.

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## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> Nice catch! I didn't even notice and I hope this means that Ma Gunn is showing up. 
> 
> The august solicits made me so excited. The Outlaws vs Luther? The annual? And Trinity seems actually intriguing? A big YES from me.


Could be just simbolic of Jason initial schoolarship at Crime Alley but the more the merrier. I don`t think we`ve ever read any of the other brothers walking around Crime Alley and trying to understand where Jason came from so Dick meeting Ma Gunn could be fun as it would of Jason asking him to help him with a case involving a circus trail. 

But you know what? I`m even more down to a subtle nod of Jason past as a circus boy  :Wink:

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## G-Potion

> 


Best panel.

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## G-Potion

That one wasn't sad enough. Here have this.

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## pansy

> Best panel.


 :Embarrassment:  :Embarrassment:  :Embarrassment: 
Alfred must have been completely destroyed by Jason's death.

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## G-Potion

> Alfred must have been completely destroyed by Jason's death.


Absolutely. This comic gets point for taking from both Gotham Knight #34 and RHATO Rebirth. Double the feels.

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## G-Potion



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## Alycat

> Could be just simbolic of Jason initial schoolarship at Crime Alley but the more the merrier. I don`t think we`ve ever read any of the other brothers walking around Crime Alley and trying to understand where Jason came from so Dick meeting Ma Gunn could be fun as it would of Jason asking him to help him with a case involving a circus trail. 
> 
> But you know what? I`m even more down to a subtle nod of Jason past as a circus boy


It's actually pretty interesting to think about that. All of the boys are from very different backgrounds and this is looking like Jason's and Dicks colliding. Hopefully they both leave with a better understanding of the other.

----------


## pansy

> Absolutely. This comic gets point for taking from both Gotham Knight #34 and RHATO Rebirth. Double the feels.


How must have been cleaning the room?How do you know if it's canon that Jason hid food inside wayne manor?

----------


## G-Potion

> How must have been cleaning the room?How do you know if it's canon that Jason hid food inside wayne manor?


Jason hiding food is not canon as far as I know. 

I posted Gotham Knight #34 a few pages back, you can see how this fancomic took inspiration from it.

----------


## pansy

> Jason hiding food is not canon as far as I know. 
> 
> I posted Gotham Knight #34 a few pages back, you can see how this fancomic took inspiration from it.


I'll read tomorrow. Today and one day so sad the snyder's daughter and two bombings.

----------


## Aioros22

> Best panel.

----------


## Aioros22

Timing 1:25 = "Lost For Words". 

I knew I`d seen Jason doing a similar move like the one in that screenshot before. Wouldn`t mind a inside joke about Errol to Sub Zero too.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason hiding food is not canon as far as I know. 
> 
> I posted Gotham Knight #34 a few pages back, you can see how this fancomic took inspiration from it.


The franchise`s biggest secret is unreveiling slowly but surely: Alfred isn`t the cook we think he is!

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Rise

One of the things that I was so curious about Jason when I started to get interested in him was about why the heck he's wearing a mask under his hamlet? But then I saw this scene and I spent a good minute laughing really hard because it's strangely made sense.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

Jason and Roy, back in the day.

----------


## Rise

Jason and Kori, back in the day.

----------


## Rise

Jason and Hank, back in the day.

----------


## Alycat

Man I don't care what anyone says: I miss Kory's poofy hair. It was cute.

----------


## Rise

Jason and Wally, back in the day.

----------


## Aioros22

More Jason and Donna (btw, it`s insane the amount of people Jay flat out *stopped* from being killed by other heroes back in the day and I`m including Jay stopping himself from killing Two Face after finding out about his father). I actually think it works well in showing that what drove him to his road wasn`t being  a "bad boy" like a lazy writer would do- it was seeing how little effect "Law" does in stopping crime and seeing too many victims and _then_ maybe coming to the conclusion that saving some people just doesn`t stop the innocent body count.

----------


## Rise

Jason and Donna, back in the day. 




Oh man, Jason & TT arc was so enjoyable. Jason/Donna dynamic was so good and his interactions with the others were really fun  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Some of the coolest covers from that run

----------


## Rise

> More Jason and Donna (btw, it`s insane the amount of people Jay flat out *stopped* from being killed by other heroes back in the day and I`m including Jay stopping himself from killing Two Face after finding out about his father). I actually think it works well in showing that what drove him to his road wasn`t being  a "bad boy" like a lazy writer would do- it was seeing how little effect "Law" does in stopping crime and seeing too many victims and _then_ maybe coming to the conclusion that saving some people just doesn`t stop the innocent body count.


Oh yeah, Jason once stopped Dick from almost killing Two Face and also stopped Batman from killing the joker. 

Jason harsh methods after his revival happened mostly because he lost hope in the system and Batman’s methods. He dead and returned to find Gotham worst than before.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s how I see it  :Cool: 

Can anyone fill me in about Nigthwing`s original run issue(s) where Jason shows up to Dick as a ghost?

----------


## Alycat

> That`s how I see it 
> 
> Can anyone fill me in about Nigthwing`s original run issue(s) where Jason shows up to Dick as a ghost?


Oh man, now that I think about it Dick saw ghost Jason quite a few times. There was this and there was that time he hallucinated that he was married to Donna Troy who cheated on him with Roy and Jason was the paper boy.

----------


## Aioros22

I like the fact that despite him being less experienced both Donna and Dick sort of had him for a guide in particular situations. I`m curious to hunt these NW issues down.

----------


## SpentShrimp

One thing I always like about Nightwing was that he always vocally stood up for what Jason did. Whereas others might have agreed, but kept quiet about it. Such as, Alfred.

----------


## G-Potion

> One thing I always like about Nightwing was that he always vocally stood up for what Jason did. Whereas others might have agreed, but kept quiet about it. Such as, Alfred.


That's interesting. Do you know which issues in which Dick defended Jason? I'm curious.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, please, if you manage to give us a small list that would be ace. 

Hopefully someone in the Nigthwing Thread can help as well  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

Aioros22 it's not a ghost page but this is what iw as talking about. It was a strange story. Fear gas Hallucination I thinkRCO021_1468680196.jpg

----------


## Rise

> That`s how I see it 
> 
> Can anyone fill me in about Nigthwing`s original run issue(s) where Jason shows up to Dick as a ghost?


Nightwing: Secret Files and Origin

And about him standing up for Jason, I don’t remember him ever doing that actually. There's just one time when he heard the news that Jason died in the titans tower where some kid (whom I forget his name) said something about Jason which Dick didn't like and attacked him for. Other than that, he actually one of people who blamed it on Jason being unfit to be a Robin (so yeah, he kinda blamed him).

Alfred and Barbara were the ones who felt that what happened to Jason was Batman's fault, but they kept their silence.

----------


## Aioros22

That was dependable on writers. Wolfman`s Nigthwing took the blame on himself (that was Danny Chase btw and was booted off the team aftewards) but Batman would claim Jason was just like Dick. Tim went to rever him to sometimes listen to Dick saying "Oh, you`re not like him at all", which is bananas since his interactions with Jay were Crisis, Titans (where they all saved Dick) and a case they both solved together. Then again, there`s other mentions where Dick claims Jason was the tougher Robin for the tougher Gotham. 

I think writers rode the wave according to how much or less Tim was in being Robin and had no qualms in using Jason as the prop for drama.

What`s weird is that these pages seem to be from Dixon and he was the same person who wrote their first meeting later on, in Nigthwing Year One. There`s a gap in years in publication but they don`t fully mesh which is the sort of thing that helps cement my point.

----------


## Aioros22

> Aioros22 it's not a ghost page but this is what iw as talking about. It was a strange story. Fear gas Hallucination I thinkRCO021_1468680196.jpg


Cool page! From the same artist too. 

Is this also from Nightwing: Secret Files and Origin, Rise?

----------


## ayanestar

> Other than that, he actually one of people who blamed it on Jason being unfit to be a Robin (so yeah, he kinda blamed him).
> 
> Alfred and Barbara were the ones who felt that what happened to Jason was Batman's fault, but they kept their silence.


From what I remember Dick did blame Batman for Jason's death, he asked him why he let him become Robin before he was ready....and then Bruce hit him like usually
Anyway it really depends on which story you are reading and how you interpret the rest. However I don't remember him ever standing up for Jason after his death. These two never really had a chance to bond because of the timing. Jason was Robin when Dick has mostly moved on and was having limited interaction with the Batfamily. He was also not on good terms with Bruce for a time. Later most writers didn't even try. I guess it was too late.

----------


## Rise

Found the panels  :Big Grin: 







> Cool page! From the same artist too. 
> 
> Is this also from Nightwing: Secret Files and Origin, Rise?


Nope. Don't know where this page from.

----------


## Aioros22

> From what I remember Dick did blame Batman for Jason's death, he asked him why he let him become Robin before he was ready....and then Bruce hit him like usually
> Anyway it really depends on which story you are reading and how you interpret the rest. However I don't remember him ever standing up for Jason after his death. These two never really had a chance to bond because of the timing. Jason was Robin when Dick has mostly moved on and was having limited interaction with the Batfamily. He was also not on good terms with Bruce for a time. Later most writers didn't even try. I guess it was too late.


They rode like the wind, if you get the meaning. That`s the same Nigthwing that under two writers (Wolfman and Starlin) had handled his go at Jason in person for doing a good job (and if you`re supicious at Starlin you wouldn`t at Wolfman). 

Alfred is even more extreme in context. He`s all nice and cheese but then you have "Gotham Knights" (#31 or 34 I think) where he tells to Bruce just coming back from E..Qvrac something like "The boy was destined to do shit, Master Bruce". I was loving that story and then that lines comes in. No wonder he hates your pancakes, man.

----------


## Alycat

> Cool page! From the same artist too. 
> 
> Is this also from Nightwing: Secret Files and Origin, Rise?


Nah, it's Nightwing #10 I believe. The Dixon run.




> From what I remember Dick did blame Batman for Jason's death, he asked him why he let him become Robin before he was ready....and then Bruce hit him like usually
> Anyway it really depends on which story you are reading and how you interpret the rest. However I don't remember him ever standing up for Jason after his death. These two never really had a chance to bond because of the timing. Jason was Robin when Dick has mostly moved on and was having limited interaction with the Batfamily. He was also not on good terms with Bruce for a time. Later most writers didn't even try. I guess it was too late.


That's why I'm so excited about the annual. Dick and Jason are my favorite Batfam members and I think it's a shame that writers ignore potential stories between them.

----------


## Aioros22

> 


Same writer *winks*



I`ve posted the argument between Bruce and Dick in this thread some pages back.

----------


## Rise

> They rode like the wind, if you get the meaning. That`s the same Nigthwing that under two writers (Wolfman and Starlin) had handled his go at Jason in person for doing a good job (and if you`re supicious at Starlin you wouldn`t at Wolfman). 
> 
> Alfred is even more extreme in context. He`s all nice and cheese but then you have "Gotham Knights" (#31 or 34 I think) where he tells to Bruce just coming back from E..Qvrac something like "The boy was destined to do shit, Master Bruce". I was loving that story and then that lines comes in. No wonder he hates your pancakes, man.


Oh, I remember that. He was actually blaming Bruce in that issue (and was kind of angry at him), but didn't say it because he already knows that Bruce was feeling extremely guilty and didn't want to added more to his guilt.

Alfred actually used to talk to Jason's costume case sometimes when he was alone in the cave.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah, it's Nightwing #10 I believe. The Dixon run.


Secret Origins and Nigthwing#10, it`s a start, thanks  :Big Grin: 




> That's why I'm so excited about the annual. Dick and Jason are my favorite Batfam members and I think it's a shame that writers ignore potential stories between them.


Ditto. There`s untapped potential cosnidering they did met each other and interacted even if a little but that, adding up to Dick`s own relationship with Bruce at the time would make for good dinamics. Here`s hoping Loedbell taps into it with RATHO`s new territory in pushing the psychology of characters involved.

----------


## Alycat

> Ditto. There`s untapped potential cosnidering they did met each other and interacted even if a little but that, adding up to Dick`s own relationship with Bruce at the time would make for good dinamics. Here`s hoping Loedbell taps into it with RATHO`s new territory in pushing the psychology of characters involved.


Yep. Jason and Dick were brother's first technically, but I don't think that they actually had much of a relationship until recently. It's interesting that the lack of relationship and Jason's death pushed him into doing more for Tim and Damian.

----------


## Aioros22

More bipolar Dick





Perty obvious that part of the reason the dinamics of the two isn`t well set is because writers for years have made the same basically...bipolar. Just so. 

What`s worse, part of that bipolarity starts from Dick`s own perception of his time as Robin which also extends to Bruce as well since he`s also bipolar on the reason Dick got out of the role.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh, I remember that. He was actually blaming Bruce in that issue (and was kind of angry at him), but didn't say it because he already knows that Bruce was feeling extremely guilty and didn't want to added more to his guilt.
> 
> Alfred actually used to talk to Jason's costume case sometimes when he was alone in the cave.


He`s totally the person to aliviate Bruce`s remorse and guilt. But I`m not sure this was the way, especially more because of his inner dialogue than what he speaks out. 



He was there when Jason earned te ropes. This reads more like Freeze to me.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yep. Jason and Dick were brother's first technically, but I don't think that they actually had much of a relationship until recently. It's interesting that the lack of relationship and Jason's death pushed him into doing more for Tim and Damian.


Their relationship was brief and wasn`t as close as it was Pre Crisis but it was there. Enough to build a foundation. Here`s another Easter Egg I wouldn`t mind seeing in the Annual: Jason showing he kept Dick`s card.

----------


## Aahz

Robin 0 1.jpg

Robin 0 2.jpg

Seriously Dick is really the last person that can come up with this Jason got killed because he was reckless stuff.

----------


## Alycat

> Robin 0 1.jpg
> 
> Robin 0 2.jpg
> 
> Seriously Dick is really the last person that can come up with this Jason got killed because he was reckless stuff.


Ugh that ponytail is hideous.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Their relationship was brief and wasn`t as close as it was Pre Crisis but it was there. Enough to build a foundation. Here`s another Easter Egg I wouldn`t mind seeing in the Annual: Jason showing he kept Dick`s card.


The card with Dick's number you mean? That would be a nice touch if they did it.

----------


## Aioros22

> The card with Dick's number you mean? That would be a nice touch if they did it.


The very same. A nice little Easter Egg or something more especific like coming out and say "You know what, thanks for at least trying once upon a time, haven`t forgot that. That`s why I still put up with you after Timbo showed me those ponytail pictures. The crowbar was less painful". 

But I`ll let Loedbell do the actual serious take  :Wink:

----------


## Rise

Guardian Of the Galaxy meet Red Hood  :Big Grin: 

Btw, I reread the first Outlaws because I wanted to know why I couldn't remember how it was said that Dick was such horrible friend and it truned out the reason why I couldn't remember because it never happened. Roy and Dick weren't friends because the original TT weren't canon during that time (which was the editors decision) and nowhere it was mentioned that they had a fall out. Kori and Dick had a relationship before, but they broke and it literally has nothing to do with any decision Kori made nor it needed to be explained why they broke up because it was irrelevant to her arc.

It still amaze me how after all these years some people still made things up just to get offended by this book, but good on you Lobdell for making a book that still trigger some people hard till this day.  :Cool:

----------


## AJpyro

> Guardian Of the Galaxy meet Red Hood 
> 
> Btw, I reread the first Outlaws because I wanted to know why I couldn't remember how it was said that Dick was such horrible friend and it truned out the reason why I couldn't remember because it never happened. Roy and Dick weren't friends because the original TT weren't canon during that time (which was the editors decision) and nowhere it was mentioned that they had a fall out. Kori and Dick had a relationship before, but they broke and it literally has nothing to do with any decision Kori made nor it needed to be explained why they broke up because it was irrelevant to her arc.
> 
> It still amaze me how after all these years some people still made things up just to get offended by this book, but good on you Lobdell for making a book that still trigger some people hard till this day.


I feel like I should make a paper copy of this just so I can staple it to anyone who keeps complaining about RHatO vol 1.

----------


## G-Potion

> Robin 0 1.jpg
> 
> Robin 0 2.jpg
> 
> Seriously Dick is really the last person that can come up with this Jason got killed because he was reckless stuff.


Still boil my blood when I look back at pages like this. I hope it's still true in Rebirth that none of the Batfam knows about Sheila's betrayal, or whoever his mom is now, and when the truth comes out one day, they would see how heroic Jason's death was.

----------


## G-Potion

> Guardian Of the Galaxy meet Red Hood


Badassery!  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

A single comic wouldn`t be able to hand all the sweet sass.

----------


## G-Potion

> Btw, I reread the first Outlaws because I wanted to know why I couldn't remember how it was said that Dick was such horrible friend and it truned out the reason why I couldn't remember because it never happened. Roy and Dick weren't friends because the original TT weren't canon during that time (which was the editors decision) and nowhere it was mentioned that they had a fall out. Kori and Dick had a relationship before, but they broke and it literally has nothing to do with any decision Kori made nor it needed to be explained why they broke up because it was irrelevant to her arc.
> 
> It still amaze me how after all these years some people still made things up just to get offended by this book, but good on you Lobdell for making a book that still trigger some people hard till this day.


I know what you're talking about. Tumblr while undeniably excited for the Outlaws Annual, predictably brings back their concern for how badly Lobdell treated Dick, and that was where exactly? Funny how quickly people who claimed to have stayed away from the N52 jumped in on that bandwagon. If anything, Lobdell is one of the fairest writers when it comes to treating guest characters.

----------


## Alycat

While the original team wasn't canon, Some sort of team was because they were shown  together ina flashback and Roy listed a bunch of names that Kory said/pretended not to remeber and Jason even asks him to ask about their old team. That may have been the issue that got edited later on because editorial had no idea wtf was going on timeline wise. Also no way, people were right to be in their feelings about RHaTO 1, and those people got vindicated anyway later on with the rollbacks in rebirth or what happened even earlier in the Starfire solo.I applaud the improvements to 2.Mostly team wise. It's actually hard to get people to check it out cause they hated 1 so much.

----------


## G-Potion

That's what I'm talking about though. It's fine that RHATO 1 wasn't liked by most but I'm not sure from where people get the idea that Lobdell wrote Dick horribly?

----------


## Rise

> While the original team wasn't canon, Some sort of team was because they were shown  together ina flashback and Roy listed a bunch of names that Kory said/pretended not to remeber and Jason even asks him to ask about their old team. That may have been the issue that got edited later on because editorial had no idea wtf was going on timeline wise. Also no way, people were right to be in their feelings about RHaTO 1, and those people got vindicated anyway later on with the rollbacks in rebirth or what happened even earlier in the Starfire solo.I applaud the improvements to 2.Mostly team wise. It's actually hard to get people to check it out cause they hated 1 so much.


Lobdell wanted to acknowledge the original TT at beginning and he wasn't sure what was canon and what wasn’t  before editors made things more clear. 

And my point here is that nowhere it was mentioned that Dick is a bad friend nor he should be relevant to the book so some people should stop making up lies about it as an excuse about why they hate the book.

Also, the book stayed for 40 issues and the original TT were brought back as part of the Rebirth project which I'm glad they did. If DC wanted to "vindicate" these people, they would have wrote out of continuity which they didn't and it was actually acknowledged in Starfire series. 

One last advice, IT'S A COMIC BOOK. If you don't like it, simply don't read it and it's not worth hating a real person over a fictional work.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That's what I'm talking about though. It's fine that RHATO 1 wasn't liked by most but I'm not sure from where people get the idea that Lobdell wrote Dick horribly?


Kneejerk reaction to RHATO 17 where Dick refuses to meet Kori and makes Jason promise he will take care of her. 

Another thing, Dick and Roy did were acknowledged as friends on RHATO. Mainly done for Tynion but then Lobdell referenced on one flashback in RHA and then the short story on RHA 13

Anyways, Jason will be the first DLC to be released for Injustice and it seemingly will come "soon"

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/867765053843537920

----------


## Alycat

> That's what I'm talking about though. It's fine that RHATO 1 wasn't liked by most but I'm not sure from where people get the idea that Lobdell wrote Dick horribly?


I guess it's why else would Dick's old friends never talk about him or talk to him unless he screwed up some way? Why would they hang out with Jason who tried to kill him, unless they didn't like him? Looking back on the actual pages he showed up in, which was a flashback of him teaching Robin Jason, the writing seemed fined and Jason looked like a brat who didn't want to listen not Dick, who was teaching him. There was also the DotF page where he did'nt want to go outside and see them, especially Kori I believe.People did'nt like that either since previously they still remained friends after breaking up.

 The only other thing is some Lobdell interview where people keep saying that exes can't be friends, but who knows if thats real or not.




> Kneejerk reaction to RHATO 17 where Dick refuses to meet Kori and makes Jason promise he will take care of her. 
> 
> Another thing, Dick and Roy did were acknowledged as friends on RHATO. Mainly done for Tynion but then Lobdell referenced on one flashback in RHA and then the short story on RHA 13
> 
> Anyways, Jason will be the first DLC to be released for Injustice and it seemingly will come "soon"
> 
> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/867765053843537920



Boon getting my hopes up for next week.

----------


## Rise

_"Has anyone noticed that July, August, September, October, and Novembers initials spell the name Jason?"_

----------


## G-Potion

> Kneejerk reaction to RHATO 17 where Dick refuses to meet Kori and makes Jason promise he will take care of her. 
> 
> Another thing, Dick and Roy did were acknowledged as friends on RHATO. Mainly done for Tynion but then Lobdell referenced on one flashback in RHA and then the short story on RHA 13
> 
> Anyways, Jason will be the first DLC to be released for Injustice and it seemingly will come "soon"
> 
> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/867765053843537920


I thought about that too. But I still asked myself what was so bad about Dick in RHATO 17? Compared to how he treated her in older continuity.

Sweet Injustice! But how soon is the question.

----------


## Rise

I had a good laugh at this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I thought about that too. But I still asked myself what was so bad about Dick in RHATO 17? Compared to how he treated her in older continuity.
> 
> Sweet Injustice! But how soon is the question.


Dick wasn't mr perfect and ran into Kori's arms?

Anyways, pretty big gallery of Medri about his time on RH/A

https://www.behance.net/gallery/2597...al-(DC-Comics)

Character sketches, B/W pages from the comic, sample pages. Is a treat.

----------


## nightbird

> I thought about that too. But I still asked myself what was so bad about Dick in RHATO 17? Compared to how he treated her in older continuity.
> 
> Sweet Injustice! But how soon is the question.


It wasn't just about Dick in RHaTO. It was about whole dynamic of Dick/Kori/Roy in that book. Considering people thought (rightfully, imo) that Roy and Kori were written out of character, you can't expect people who care about all three of them take that hints as something cute.  
I read that book, I hated it, I dropped it. No hate for Lobdell as a person (at all), but as for the writer I can be displeased with his work and choices.
If you guys  liked that book, that's great. I dunno why you all in the first place offended if some people don't like it. Let's all focus on our own feelings.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It wasn't just about Dick in RHaTO. It was about whole dynamic of Dick/Kori/Roy in that book. Considering people thought (rightfully, imo) that Roy and Kori were written out of character, you can't expect people who care about all three of them take that hints as something cute.  
> I read that book, I hated it, I dropped it. No hate for Lobdell as a person (at all), but as for the writer I can be displeased with his work and choices.
> If you guys  liked that book, that's great. I dunno why you all in the first place offended if some people don't like it. Let's all focus on our own feelings.


Because people are making things up to "justify" their distaste for the book.

----------


## G-Potion

> It wasn't just about Dick in RHaTO. It was about whole dynamic of Dick/Kori/Roy in that book. Considering people thought (rightfully, imo) that Roy and Kori were written out of character, you can't expect people who care about all three of them take that hints as something cute.  
> I read that book, I hated it, I dropped it. No hate for Lobdell as a person (at all), but as for the writer I can be displeased with his work and choices.


And I never said anything against people who hated how Roy and Kory were written. And Dick/Kory/Roy dynamic was pretty much non-existent in that book because it was irrelevant. I only questioned why people think the worst of how Lobdell wrote Dick just because they hate his book. I mean, hate all you want, but at least be fair?

----------


## nightbird

> Because people are making things up to "justify" their distaste for the book.


Or maybe because it's always a bit  displeasing to hear people bashing stuff that you actully enjoy? no? okay then.

----------


## nightbird

> And I never said anything against people who hated how Roy and Kory were written. And Dick/Kory/Roy dynamic was pretty much non-existent in that book because it was irrelevant. I only questioned why people think the worst of how Lobdell wrote Dick just because they hate his book.


People hate that book because of how they were written, what was hinted, showed and implied, not other way around, you know.

----------


## G-Potion

> People hate that book because of how they were written, what was hinted, showed and implied, not other way around, you know.


Never had a problem with people hating it. I only brought this up when people started bashing Lobdell for writing Dick badly, using false information (as *Rise* has said), and others jumped on it without checking the source.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dick wasn't mr perfect and ran into Kori's arms?
> 
> Anyways, pretty big gallery of Medri about his time on RH/A
> 
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/2597...al-(DC-Comics)
> 
> Character sketches, B/W pages from the comic, sample pages. Is a treat.


Great finds, man!  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> I guess it's why else would Dick's old friends never talk about him or talk to him unless he screwed up some way? Why would they hang out with Jason who tried to kill him, unless they didn't like him?


In scenes like this I allways had the feeling that the writters had the problem that it wasn't really defined what actually happend back than and that they were not allowed to define it. 
And that has been a imo big problem with the Batfamily interactions in the new 52.

----------


## Aioros22

> I guess it's why else would Dick's old friends never talk about him or talk to him unless he screwed up some way? Why would they hang out with Jason who tried to kill him, unless they didn't like him? Looking back on the actual pages he showed up in, which was a flashback of him teaching Robin Jason, the writing seemed fined and Jason looked like a brat who didn't want to listen not Dick, who was teaching him. There was also the DotF page where he did'nt want to go outside and see them, especially Kori I believe.People did'nt like that either since previously they still remained friends after breaking up.
> 
>  The only other thing is some Lobdell interview where people keep saying that exes can't be friends, but who knows if thats real or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boon getting my hopes up for next week.


As far as we know, Jason trying to kill them was in Under The Red Hood and that has it own cavetae and narative. As Tim said to him in the rooftop, he gets it. he came back, found out things he didn`t want to, likely the Pit doing a number on his mental sanity, all together. 

So why would they hang out with him? Because it was set in the new chronology that both Roy and Jason have already met in their sidekick years. Because all three shared a misfit sort of background without exception. Because all had issues with Earth`s abiding of Law. This isn`t really hard to get whether you enjoy the old team or not. 

But no, it`s all because Dick was written as having had a romantic fallout with Starfire. Granted, not a major writting take on Dick but it`s not original either. Wolfman did it before.

----------


## Rise

> Dick wasn't mr perfect and ran into Kori's arms?
> 
> Anyways, pretty big gallery of Medri about his time on RH/A
> 
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/2597...al-(DC-Comics)
> 
> Character sketches, B/W pages from the comic, sample pages. Is a treat.


That some really good art from Medri and I really like the dinner scene especially. Lobdell sneaking in a GOT reference made me laugh..

----------


## Aioros22

> People hate that book because of how they were written, what was hinted, showed and implied, not other way around, you know.


Some people hated the book for obvious reasons but don`t kid yourself. It`s more on how it was implied under the eyes of a fandom than what was shown.

----------


## nightbird

> Never had a problem with people hating it. I only brought this up when people started bashing Lobdell for writing Dick badly, using false information (as *Rise* has said), and others jumped on it without checking the source.





> Some people hated the book for obvious reasons but don`t kid yourself. It`s more on how it was implied under the eyes of a fandom than what was shown.


I guess it comes to whatever would make all of us sleep at night.

----------


## Alycat

> In scenes like this I allways had the feeling that the writters had the problem that it wasn't really defined what actually happend back than and that they were not allowed to define it. 
> And that has been a imo big problem with the Batfamily interactions in the new 52.



Yeah, the lack of solid answers about canon or what happened to anyone was an annoying problem. Still a problem in come cases.




> As far as we know, Jason trying to kill them was in Under The Red Hood and that has it own cavetae and narative. As Tim said to him in the rooftop, he gets it. he came back, found out things he didn`t want to, likely the Pit doing a number on his mental sanity, all together. 
> 
> So why would they hang out with him? Because it was set in the new chronology that both Roy and Jason have already met in their sidekick years. Because all three shared a misfit sort of background without exception. Because all had issues with Earth`s abiding of Law. This isn`t really hard to get whether you enjoy the old team or not. 
> 
> But no, it`s all because Dick was written as having had a romantic fallout with Starfire. Granted, not a major writting take on Dick but it`s not original either. Wolfman did it before.


I'd argue that Tim being super understanding of Jason was still out of nowhere and slightly annoys me because he didn't extend that same understanding to Damian. I also don't know if that Tim/Damian stuff even ahppened or if Jason had any regrets in trying to kill those Batfam members, mostly because we didn't have any background on what happened.

That said, even if your explanation makes sense, it's no surprise that people didn't like it, because that's not what people wanted out of those characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> It wasn't just about Dick in RHaTO. It was about whole dynamic of Dick/Kori/Roy in that book. Considering people thought (rightfully, imo) that Roy and Kori were written out of character, you can't expect people who care about all three of them take that hints as something cute.  
> I read that book, I hated it, I dropped it. No hate for Lobdell as a person (at all), but as for the writer I can be displeased with his work and choices.
> If you guys  liked that book, that's great. I dunno why you all in the first place offended if some people don't like it. Let's all focus on our own feelings.


It`s just weird when some talk about how OOC they were but didn`t read the whole first volume to start with and in some arguments it shows but as far as converting anyone to read any book, that`s off the charts. You like what you like. 

For example the discusssion about Kory and Roy always looked a bit stiff to me. I read the whole of Wolfman`s Titans and I can see some of the same bits. Kory having to restrain herself. Kory not understanding the notion of being a prude on Earth in sexual contexts. Kory learning languages and about the person by kissing. Kory putting her love for someone behind her family issues. 

Now here`s the thing, was Loedbell`s execution on these characters the same as Wolfman`s? No. That`s cue number one against him using them but the comparison would always be there. Me? I don`t care, I respect a writer who goes for it. The other thing is on Office. Office was the one who decided where "Titans" and their history fell in place within the new timeline and let writers use the eggs they have. This is cue number two since maybe, just maybe it would have been better for some if he never tried to mention any of it since Offices weren`t caring in using that history in the first place. 

I get it, I really do. It`s what it is.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'd argue that Tim being super understanding of Jason was still out of nowhere and slightly annoys me because he didn't extend that same understanding to Damian. I also don't know if that Tim/Damian stuff even ahppened or if Jason had any regrets in trying to kill those Batfam members, mostly because we didn't have any background on what happened.


Yeah, it wasn`t perfect but I`m willing to throw a bone on the writer who is willing to give us one. As far as regrets I think Jason`s interactions with Tim and Bruce are good indicatores that he was. One thing is hints, another is requiring something to be laid out. When Jason admits to Tim that he had all the right in hating him because of what he did, that`s an indicator. 

Loedbell`s biggest sin is not expanding on the scenes he had control over and that was cue number three. 




> That said, even if your explanation makes sense, it's no surprise that people didn't like it, because that's not what people wanted out of those characters.


Well, this is where my understanding on the matter takes a stride. It was pretty self evident but if it`s not where some wanted these characters to be, that`s something else. Like, i totally get that the new team has been universally accepted, in part exactly because these characters don`t have history to be upset about and because Lodbell has more freedom that way but personally I enjoyed it, so..I can`t be upset.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'd argue that Tim being super understanding of Jason was still out of nowhere and slightly annoys me because he didn't extend that same understanding to Damian. I also don't know if that Tim/Damian stuff even ahppened or if Jason had any regrets in trying to kill those Batfam members, mostly because we didn't have any background on what happened.


Tim did offer the same understanding to Damian than he did to Jason -Batman & Son is canon- but unlike Jason, Damian both rejected him and never shown regret for his actions.

----------


## Alycat

> Loedbell`s biggest sin is not expanding on the scenes he had control over and that was cue number three.


I actually find that kinda funny since a complaint I remember about the first book was repetition over stuff we already knew in (too many) narration boxes, but then there was stuff you did'nt know they you wish was expanded on.  Then again, how people feel about narration is subjective. I remember people complaining that Grayson needed more of them.

----------


## Aioros22

> I guess it comes to whatever would make all of us sleep at night.


Too true, nigthbird, too true. 

By the way, I hope it`s clear that while it`s my experience that some who disliked the previous book never read it past the first issue I`m not overlooking its flaws and I think this is a general thing among its supporters. Gladly, Loedbell and co seemed to take notice and improved on the formula.

----------


## G-Potion

> *I guess it's why else would Dick's old friends never talk about him or talk to him unless he screwed up some way?* Why would they hang out with Jason who tried to kill him, unless they didn't like him? Looking back on the actual pages he showed up in, which was a flashback of him teaching Robin Jason, the writing seemed fined and Jason looked like a brat who didn't want to listen not Dick, who was teaching him. There was also the DotF page where he did'nt want to go outside and see them, especially Kori I believe.People did'nt like that either since previously they still remained friends after breaking up.
> 
> The only other thing is some Lobdell interview where people keep saying that exes can't be friends, but who knows if thats real or not.


This looks eerily like some of the things people say on Tumblr. That Dick was the reason his team with Roy and Kory failed, just to make Jason look better. That's quite a reach, don't you think? The details on Titans were very fuzzy at the time (editorial fault). Lobdell only nodded at their existence, nothing about their end.

Why didn't Roy talk about Dick? Because it's not what the book is about. Did Dick talk about Roy and Kory in his book (honest question!)? And my opinion, but with Jason canonically stating that of the batfam Tim was the only one he could get along with, I guess it's not a good conversation topic. In RHATO#17 Roy didn't know Dick was in, and Damian deserved more panels because of his death story. 

Why didn't Kory talk about Dick? She did. Fondly. In RHATO#6. Whatever issues about her memory loss/fake memory loss and their mutual refusal to talk to each other in #17, the only canon indication is that, as Jason pointed out, there's a history there that Jason doesn't know about and that they both keep their cards closed. Personally, I don't think it was such a disastrous portrayal of Dick nor it elevated Jason in anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://mrjasontodd.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Somewhat relevant to the topic at hand.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This looks eerily like some of the things people say on Tumblr. That Dick was the reason his team with Roy and Kory failed, just to make Jason look better. That's quite a reach, don't you think? The details on Titans were very fuzzy at the time (editorial fault). Lobdell only nodded at their existence, nothing about their end.
> 
> Why didn't Roy talk about Dick? Because it's not what the book is about. Did Dick talk about Roy and Kory in his book (honest question!)? And my opinion, but with Jason canonically stating that of the batfam Tim was the only one he could get along with, I guess it's not a good conversation topic. In RHATO#17 Roy didn't know Dick was in, and Damian deserved more panels because of his death story. 
> 
> Why didn't Kory talk about Dick? She did. Fondly. In RHATO#6. Whatever issues about her memory loss/fake memory loss and their mutual refusal to talk to each other in #17, the only canon indication is that, as Jason pointed out, there's a history there that Jason doesn't know about and that they both keep their cards closed. Personally, I don't think it was such a disastrous portrayal of Dick nor it elevated Jason in anyway.


I can confirm Dick never mentioned Roy or Kori on his books.

----------


## Alycat

> Somewhat relevant to the topic at hand.


There are too many heroes with red outfits dammit.  But I can't think of any other suitable colors  :Frown: 




> I can confirm Dick never mentioned Roy or Kori on his books.


One of the many major failings of N52 Nightwing that rebirth has already set about correcting. It was ridiculous how separated he was from everyone that wasn't Bruce or Babs.

----------


## G-Potion

> I can confirm Dick never mentioned Roy or Kori on his books.


Thanks!

PS: The likes the Red Hood DLC twit is getting is really something.  :EEK!:

----------


## Aioros22

To be especific not even Jason knows what happened between the two, hence why he offers Dick the chance to talk with her. I find it more troubling that Dick only ever interacted with kory due to ex-drama plots in his own book. True enough that was universally panned.

----------


## Aioros22

> PS: The likes the Red Hood DLC twit is getting is really something.


Glad to hear that our boy is making new waves in the online community  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Anyways, pretty big gallery of Medri about his time on RH/A
> 
> https://www.behance.net/gallery/2597...al-(DC-Comics)
> 
> Character sketches, B/W pages from the comic, sample pages. Is a treat.


Damn, it`s a little vault of wealth. Post more of these of artists if you catch the chance.

----------


## Aioros22

Hoping the Gear System gets to include a variety of set pieces, including the AK suits, hoods over the helmet and all.

----------


## Alycat

> Hoping the Gear System gets to include a variety of set pieces, including the AK suits, hoods over the helmet and all.


Yeah I want both the Arkham Knight suit  ( Both variations) and red hood outfit.

----------


## nightbird

...Does he even see something in that helmet?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Badassery knows no limits  :Wink: 

technology magic

----------


## nightbird

> Badassery knows no limits 
> 
> technology magic


Well, I guess I should be happy that this one is not as stupid as the one with mouth from RHaTO... or maybe not xd

----------


## Aioros22

A mouth ala Man in The Iron Mask is fine. The mask with a molded face printed on it is the stupid. 

I don`t think they`ll go for that one. They want to sell it, not scare off the costumers  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## nightbird

God, I hate how stupid it was. 
You can basically see his teeth, shape of his lips and nostrils, yet no eyes and they tried to pass it as metal. Just why?  :Frown: 
My friend used to call him "red condom head". I was so mad about it, ugh.

----------


## Aioros22

And take in mind that Rocafort was about the only one who could make it work because his linework is mechanical looking at the edges. 





Gleason`s line came off looking much better in replicating that in a more realistic way even if at first he also tried to pull the nose bit. He later changed it and I think with just the mouth the helmet can look metal enough.

----------


## Aahz

> As far as we know, Jason trying to kill them was in Under The Red Hood and that has it own cavetae and narative. As Tim said to him in the rooftop, he gets it. he came back, found out things he didn`t want to, likely the Pit doing a number on his mental sanity, all together.


Even in comic version of Under the Red Hood he never tried to kill Batfamily members, only in BftC and even there stabbing Tim was in basically in self defence.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> Even in comic version of Under the Red Hood he never tried to kill Batfamily members, only in BftC and even there stabbing Tim was in basically in self defence.


Yeah but with the new chronology, the only time where he could have come in direct conflit would fall in UTRH arc and we know from flashbacks he had Batman on bullet`s sight at least until either Dick or Tim show up fpr the save. While Dick was still Batman any direct references of any of them battling for the right to use the mantle have been numb.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. there was also a little Dick Kory scene in Tynions run, but it was never really explained what had happend.

But putting two people that are this close to Dick on a team with Jason was allways a strange decision imo (but not as strange as shipping Jason and Barbara in Eternal).

----------


## G-Potion

Soon is soon!

----------


## Alycat

> Soon is soon!


lmao they chose the perfect image for that too.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh snap!

By the way if someone wants a custum made Hood... :Cool: 



http://badasshelmetstore.com/custom-...d-hood-helmet/

----------


## G-Potion

> Btw. there was also a little Dick Kory scene in Tynions run, but it was never really explained what had happend.
> 
> But putting two people that are this close to Dick on a team with Jason was allways a strange decision imo (but not as strange as shipping Jason and Barbara in Eternal).


I completely forgot about this one.

----------


## Alycat

> I completely forgot about this one.


So were we ever given  a hint as to why that happened? Also was this one of her most painful memories?

----------


## G-Potion

Still love Jensen.   :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> So were we ever given  a hint as to why that happened? Also was this one of her most painful memories?


Nope. But there's one more confirmation that Kory's memory loss was fake. This is the page that preceded Aahz's post. 
Of course this is Tynion's take, which could be very far away from Lobdell's vision.

----------


## G-Potion

Just saw this on Reddit. A concept video, showing Red Hood in the main roster.

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/867871666667474945

The Twitter response is *delicious*.

----------


## Aahz



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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

Dang, those are stupendous.

----------


## gwhh

How long that been going on?  How much does he take?

I wonder why super girl didn't uses her x-ray vision or what ever to know he taking something? Seems like a pretty logical thing for her to do after that.  I mean superman uses his powers all the time to check out what people are doing? 




> He was on venom.

----------


## Aioros22

Bolton 


Ron Salas


Garry Brown

----------


## Aioros22

> How long that been going on?  How much does he take?
> 
> I wonder why super girl didn't uses her x-ray vision or what ever to know he taking something? Seems like a pretty logical thing for her to do after that. I mean superman uses his powers all the time to check out what people are doing?


I don`t think he does nearly enough as you think but Supergirl at the time was a newcomer on Earth.

----------


## Aioros22

axeeeee.tumblr.com 


Garron Javier

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> How long that been going on?  How much does he take?
> 
> I wonder why super girl didn't uses her x-ray vision or what ever to know he taking something? Seems like a pretty logical thing for her to do after that.  I mean superman uses his powers all the time to check out what people are doing?


She did. She knew he was on something, but wasn't aware of Venom at the time.

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion

Source: http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22



----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

So what were his powers in Tynion's run?

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Despite the mishaps, the punch is among what I like of Tynion's run.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Alycat

I like the punch too. It also helps distract from Roys ugly hat.

----------


## Aahz



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## Aioros22

> So what were his powers in Tynion's run?


Mystical Martial Arts, basically. 

I would also want it in Injustice as a trap maneuver. Oh, you want to close in? Bad form, chump. Bad form.

----------


## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

For those who don`t know, it`s a technique that strikes at darkness that was created by Ducra of the All Caste, passed to Talia, who couldn`t quite do it (because she`s a Al Ghul, mostly) and from Talia to Jason, after he watches her doing it. This is the most Dragonball thing Jason ever did and is awesome. 

It also serves to point something that a few writers, in their thirst for a Bat-Punisher tend to forget: Jason was never a rotten kid, even when he had to struggle with his anger. That`s also the reason Batman gives him a second chance eventually.

----------


## G-Potion

I love that it shows Jason's quick learning by observing. Fits well with his upbringing.

----------


## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

> I love that it shows Jason's quick learning by observing. Fits well with his upbringing.


Even Starlin`s Batman said it. "Like a fish in the water".

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

[IMG]http://www.slim**********.com/image/cache/data/April/Batman-Arkham-knight-red-hood-jacket-1000x1059.jpg[/IMG]



When Halloween is the whole year

----------


## G-Potion

Seriously hope this jacket makes it into Injustice Jason wardrobe.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Who's your favorite fan-films' Red Hood so far?

----------


## Aioros22

All in all, the ones I posted have been more than interesting and I enjoyed them all. I think overall my favorites are "Red Hood: The Fallen" and "Red Hood: Homecoming". Both have beats and athmosphere that i absolutely love. Sound and visuals especially.  

"Red Hood: Dark Knight Legacy" comes after". It`s the best mask of the three and the plot is risky since Batman is dead which also happens in "Fallen" but this one takes a more cinematic cue instead of personal.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://apinchofsanity.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

*Jason*:  FUCK! 

Bruce:  language. 

*Jason*:  English.

----------


## Alycat

The only problem with the above is that Murderman is already doing Red Hood's job for him.

----------


## Aioros22

> The only problem with the above is that Murderman is already doing Red Hood's job for him.


The old man had a change of heart by the end of BvS.

----------


## Aioros22

http://i-mean-its-practically-canon.tumblr.com/


Jason: Follow me so we only leave one set of footprints. 

Stephanie: Thats a perfect plan, but Im not going to do that. 

Jason: Youre not taking this seriously enough. 

Stephanie: Stealing ice cream from your dads freezer? No, Im not. 

Jason: I know where Dick hides the marshmallow topping. 

Stephanie: Right behind you.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I love that it shows Jason's quick learning by observing. Fits well with his upbringing.





> Even Starlin`s Batman said it. "Like a fish in the water".


That's no "quick learner" but full blown Mary Sue. 

One thing is for Jason to be skilled as Lobdell shown on issue 2's montage of his training with the All Caste. Those pages though go straight into idiotic with Jason being able to perfectly execute an "arcane, all powerful punch" just by seeing it once. 

And the way is used again with Ra's? That's writing so terrible that not even Saturday Morning Cartoons would use it.




> All in all, the ones I posted have been more than interesting and I enjoyed them all. I think overall my favorites are "Red Hood: The Fallen" and "Red Hood: Homecoming". Both have beats and athmosphere that i absolutely love. Sound and visuals especially.  
> 
> "Red Hood: Dark Knight Legacy" comes after". It`s the best mask of the three and the plot is risky since Batman is dead which also happens in "Fallen" but this one takes a more cinematic cue instead of personal.


The biggest problem with fan films (aside of budget and questionably talented actors) is that creators can't help themselves with making their own take on iconic scenes from the comic regardless if it works with the bigger narrative or not. This is especially notorious with Jason since every single one has to have either a debate about methods with the Batfamily, a fight with the Joker or both.

----------


## dietrich



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## G-Potion

> That's no "quick learner" but full blown Mary Sue.


Be that as it may, these moments are far and few in between, at least compared to what writers write of the other robins. It's okay to savor it once in a while. Unlike some batfam stories, at least no major characters were brought down in order to elevate Jason. Talia isn't counted since the reason she couldn't do it was probably due to her affiliation.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's no "quick learner" but full blown Mary Sue. 
> 
> One thing is for Jason to be skilled as Lobdell shown on issue 2's montage of his training with the All Caste. Those pages though go straight into idiotic with Jason being able to perfectly execute an "arcane, all powerful punch" just by seeing it once. 
> 
> And the way is used again with Ra's? That's writing so terrible that not even Saturday Morning Cartoons would use it.


It`s not even as Loedbell shown, he was already an adapter before. 

I`m not praising Tynion`s take on narrative prowess, I`m humorly pointing out that Jason is a quick learner, especially in combat context - hence the Dragonball mention. But just because his take was the lowest point of the whole volume doesn`t mean I can`t bring my enjoyment on little things. Talia being rotten because she`s a Al Ghul, unlike Jason, is one. 

Besides, stuff like this is so easily editable it`s not funny. You can literally keep the move with just a few narrative tweeks without losing the component that the writer tried to tell but came short. 




> The biggest problem with fan films (aside of budget and questionably talented actors) is that creators can't help themselves with making their own take on iconic scenes from the comic regardless if it works with the bigger narrative or not. This is especially notorious with Jason since every single one has to have either a debate about methods with the Batfamily, a fight with the Joker or both.


That`s a present creative issue with any adaptation. Creators making their own take on characters I love to read is part of the interest.  

There`s at least one fan-movie where they don`t lose sleep over explaining those points but if you`re having Batman or Joker around - and you can`t blink at them for using it, it`s part of the iconography of Red Hood - then you have to point the Elephant in the Room. Those differences help set the dinamics. Dinamics help set interactions.  Interactions help make the characters pop.

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## G-Potion



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## Savatewolf

The stream just started and the chat erupted immediately with people asking for Red Hood lol

----------


## Alycat

lmao that's how I feel too. I mean the Top is gonna be pretty good, but I wanna see that specifically.

----------


## Aioros22

The hype is real  :Cool: 

Where are you guys following the stream?

----------


## Alycat

> The hype is real 
> 
> Where are you guys following the stream?


I'm on netherrealms twitch channel https://www.twitch.tv/netherrealm . Seriously though these fights are pretty good if you guys like IJ2, even if you're just waiting for Red Hood.

----------


## Alycat

Trailer leaked early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lGrgyuCs8 It looks good!!

----------


## kaimaciel

> Trailer leaked early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lGrgyuCs8 It looks good!!


I love his battle style! I'm gonna play the hell out of him! 

I wish he had specific lines with other characters instead of pre-recorded ones though... The one Damian uses here is from his confrontation with Batman.

----------


## Aioros22

Gun Fu!

----------


## Aioros22

Looks like someone beat me to it! 

Anyone notice the use of the gauntlets as if they`re the All Caste energy swords? Powa!

Nice mix of hard hitting, zoning and trap game. As expected.

----------


## G-Potion

Hype hype hype!! I love his mix of tools.

----------


## Alycat

> Looks like someone beat me to it! 
> 
> Anyone notice the use of the gauntlets as if they`re the All Caste energy swords? Powa!
> 
> Nice mix of hard hitting, zoning and trap game. As expected.


Yeah, I like the mix he's got going on. Gonna be my new main next to Robin. Although NR has to be trolling. Damian has an electric staff and Jason has zapping guns and Dick still doesn't get anything. Not even a skin.

----------


## Aioros22

> I wish he had specific lines with other characters instead of pre-recorded ones though... The one Damian uses here is from his confrontation with Batman


That`s likely just one of them. They might have even finished the gameplay but not the whole voice acting.

----------


## G-Potion

Still gonna watch it on the stream though. I wanna see the reactions.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Alycat

> That`s likely just one of them. They might have even finished the gameplay but not the whole voice acting.


I did laugh at his response to Damian though. Was it about being desperate for approval?

----------


## G-Potion

> Looks like someone beat me to it! 
> 
> Anyone notice the use of the gauntlets as if they`re the All Caste energy swords? Powa!


I thought they would do something with it when I saw the roll-up sleeve design. Cool stuff.

----------


## Aioros22

> Hype hype hype!! I love his mix of tools.


Revolvers, gauntlets, zapping guns, batarangs, explosives, damn. NR did a nice job of bringing up Jason`s versability with tools in the arena and he _still_ gets to show the range of mobility and hard hitting jabs (one of them hitting full screen!). And boy, is the vídeo speeded up or does Jason really look fast?

----------


## G-Potion

> Revolvers, gauntlets, zapping guns, batarangs, explosives, damn. NR did a nice job of bringing up Jason`s versability with tools in the arena and he _still_ gets to show the range of mobility and hard hitting jabs (one of them hitting full screen!). And boy, is the vídeo speeded up or does Jason really look fast?


And also his special is not bad at all! (although no rocket launcher)

----------


## Aioros22

His special actually impressed me the _least_ out of all the gameplay shown and it finishes with him jumping and shooting towards the head of someone who is down while hitting an explosive (?) at the same time. How _crazy_ is that??

Instant buy.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah the special was a little weak for me, but you won't be using meter for specials most of the time so its okay.

----------


## G-Potion

So extra, Jason. Just like wasting a bunch of bullets in the intro.  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not feeling the voice but is still really damn cool

----------


## G-Potion

> Not feeling the voice but is still really damn cool


I love this. Glad they bring the humor in with him.

----------


## Aioros22

The voice feels off for a start because is radically different than Jensen`s and Baker (sp). 

But I don`t interely dislike it now. It sounds metalic, as it should considering the helmet.

----------


## G-Potion

> The voice feels off for a start because is radically different than Jensen`s and Baker (sp). 
> 
> But I don`t interely dislike it now. It sounds metalic, as it should considering the helmet.


I'm ok with it. Wonder if there's a chance of helmetless gears though.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah the special was a little weak for me, but you won't be using meter for specials most of the time so its okay.


How many specials does each character have? One? 

It`s not bad by any means, it`s just that the rest of the gameplay is so nicely done that in comparison it just looks slow (yes, I know it`s slow mo but you get the drift).

----------


## Alycat

> Not feeling the voice but is still really damn cool



That part was great. Just so much personality in the moveset.

----------


## G-Potion

> I love this. Glad they bring the humor in with him.


I'm watching on my phone so I couldn't hear clearly. Does he say something with that move?

----------


## Aioros22

> Not feeling the voice but is still really damn cool


I`m so going to _abuse_ jabs on that clown. 

Headless gear? I`m thinking it`s right money to do it. But it should come with dialogue. 

"Why do you wear a mask under the helmet?"

"I have expensive taste for the dramatic". 

It`s iconic  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm watching on my phone so I couldn't hear clearly. Does he say something with that move?


Didn`t catch it *goes to see it again*

----------


## G-Potion

> I`m so going to _abuse_ jabs on that clown. 
> 
> Headless gear? I`m thinking it`s right money to do it. But it should come with dialogue. 
> 
> "Why do you wear a mask under the helmet?"
> 
> "I have expensive taste for the dramatic". 
> 
> It`s iconic


So two set of voices with the other being non-mechanical? Do any other characters have both?

----------


## Aioros22

That would be me imagining an extra for perfection but I`m likely asking much. 

I have no idea if the other characters have it.

----------


## Aioros22

If he says something it`s kinda muffed by the background noise. 

So basically his gauntlets= blades+red lights explosives? Btw, he`s totally looking to be the counter Deadshot. Expect this fella to be used huge in online play.

----------


## G-Potion

> If he says something it`s kinda muffed by the background noise. 
> 
> So basically his gauntlets= blades+red lights explosives? Btw, he`s totally looking to be the counter Deadshot. Expect this fella to be used huge in online play.


Yeah I watched on my PC just now. I likely imagined it the first time around.

How many times have you guys rewatched already?

----------


## Frontier

> So two set of voices with the other being non-mechanical? Do any other characters have both?


I think certain characters like Batman and Flash, when using gear that covers their faces, have a mechanical effect added to their voices.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think certain characters like Batman and Flash, when using gear that covers their faces, have a mechanical effect added to their voices.


Oh nice! Thanks for the info!

----------


## Aioros22

> I think certain characters like Batman and Flash, when using gear that covers their faces, have a mechanical effect added to their voices.


Ah, well, it shouldn`t be hard then. It`s basically just an added affect. 

#doit.

----------


## Aioros22

Who brings the dramatic flair on the Bat?

_This guy_.

----------


## G-Potion

Can't wait for the flood of gifs and edits from Tumblr.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Frontier

> Oh nice! Thanks for the info!





> Ah, well, it shouldn`t be hard then. It`s basically just an added affect. 
> 
> #doit.


Though for some characters, like Deadshot, I don't think you can remove their masks as far as gear is concerned. 

Red Hood might be the same way.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah I watched on my PC just now. I likely imagined it the first time around.
> 
> How many times have you guys rewatched already?


Too many times because his gameplay is fast and I`m constantly catching details. Right now I`m loving the run dash he makes to kick people away and then shoot their asses across screen.  

Online zoners and mashers, beware.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> If he says something it`s kinda muffed by the background noise. 
> 
> So basically his gauntlets= blades+red lights explosives? Btw, he`s totally looking to be the counter Deadshot. Expect this fella to be used huge in online play.


There are plenty of characters that make Deadshot's life hell. Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid are popular counterpicks against him. Cheetah makes his life hell. Besides, any character can do well against him if they remember they can roll to close the distance.

Jason looks really good. I was expecting him to be a pure zoner but I like what I'm seeing from him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Though for some characters, like Deadshot, I don't think you can remove their masks as far as gear is concerned. 
> 
> Red Hood might be the same way.


Very true but I hope NR goes the little extra mile on that. "Jason" is every bit as relevant in character as "Red Hood". I think Deadshot is different. The man can be Will Smith or a white rich guy. It matters less. 

But it will also depend if there`s actually exclusive dialogue for him.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah I hope his dialogue is unique. Also like that Jason is bringing the dramatic flair. A good Robin vs Red Hood fight will look amazing.

----------


## Aioros22

> There are plenty of characters that make Deadshot's life hell. Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid are popular counterpicks against him. Cheetah makes his life hell. Besides, any character can do well against him if they remember they can roll to close the distance.
> 
> Jason looks really good. I was expecting him to be a pure zoner but I like what I'm seeing from him.


Well, I`ve read Superman is really up there but that Darkseid was slower than either. Maybe it changes with the ability and gear system?

----------


## Frontier

> Very true but I hope NR goes the little extra mile on that. "Jason" is every bit as relevant in character as "Red Hood". I think Deadshot is different. The man can be Will Smith or a white rich guy. It matters less. 
> 
> But it will also depend if there`s actually exclusive dialogue for him.


I expect Batman, Robin, Joker, and Starfire will definitely have exclusive dialogue with him, and potentially with some of the other Gotham characters as well.

Though I'm wondering if he'll get some dialogue with Green Arrow or Kori that references Roy...

----------


## Aioros22

> I expect Batman, Robin, Joker, and Starfire will definitely have exclusive dialogue with him, and potentially with some of the other Gotham characters as well.
> 
> Though I'm wondering he'll get some dialogue with Green Arrow that references Roy...


Yeah, hope so. Since this trailer was just to highlight the gameplay..I mean it would feel a bit "c`mon guys, you did the hardest thing, don`t fail me now".

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> Well, I`ve read Superman is really up there but that Darkseid was slower than either. Maybe it changes with the ability and gear system?


I play ranked where gear abilities are turned off by default. Darkseid's omega beams knockdown so he will always have the advantage if ones hits. He can do them in the air, has a teleport and can summon parademons to assist him. He has the zoning advantage over Deadshot.

----------


## Alycat

> I expect Batman, Robin, Joker, and Starfire will definitely have exclusive dialogue with him, and potentially with some of the other Gotham characters as well.
> 
> Though I'm wondering if he'll get some dialogue with Green Arrow or Kori that references Roy...


That would be Strange since the Outlaws don't exist in Injustice. Kori's been stuck in the Phantom Zone as far as we know.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, they seem quality screen advantages. Gotta catch up on other characters, I totally missed he had a teleport. I think of the ones I`ve seen, Arrow is now my second interest and Scarecrow amazingly is the other. 

Oh, Aquaman too but I already wanted to try him. These gentlemen are my potential Funtastic Four.

----------


## Aioros22

> That would be Strange since the Outlaws don't exist in Injustice. Kori's been stuck in the Phantom Zone as far as we know.


Make it a Easter Egg for winking.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, they seem quality screen advantages. Gotta catch up on other characters, I totally missed he had a teleport. I think of the ones I`ve seen, Arrow is now my second interest and Scarecrow amazingly is the other. 
> 
> Oh, Aquaman too but I already wanted to try him. These gentlemen are my potential Funtastic Four.


Aquaman is so cheap. Tentacles for days that had people rage quit. Only Deadshot and Harley might cause more anger.

----------


## Aioros22

I believe his cheapiness comes with a cost for him. Not a major issue with me since my school of Fighting Games are Art Of figthing and Virtua Figther. You can`t just spam jack, fella. 

But it doesn`t hurt having at least one character that will make people really rage over.

----------


## Alycat

On man I can only imagine if Injustice had team battles with  someone using Harley,Red Hood, and Deadshot. Gun crew would cause so much rage.

----------


## Aioros22

> On man I can only imagine if Injustice had team battles with  someone using Harley,Red Hood, and Deadshot. Gun crew would cause so much rage.

----------


## G-Potion

> On man I can only imagine if Injustice had team battles with  someone using Harley,Red Hood, and Deadshot. Gun crew would cause so much rage.


 :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad:

----------


## Aioros22

It has begun!

----------


## Aioros22

By the way in this vídeo I can hear him actually saying something in-move to the Joker in the second gun rushdown.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> That would be Strange since the Outlaws don't exist in Injustice. Kori's been stuck in the Phantom Zone as far as we know.


According to Cyborg Kori was one of the Titans that died in Metropolis.

----------


## Aioros22

More reactions

----------


## G-Potion

Basically the only things I'm gonna watch today.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

That could be a lie told by Superman who shoved them in there though. No way would Vic be cool with the Regime if he knew the truth. Also don't they appear in his arcade ending?

----------


## G-Potion

Keep it coming, mate!  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> According to Cyborg Kori was one of the Titans that died in Metropolis.


The game story doesn`t exactly follow the comic and vice versa, right? It`s more like one product expands the world for the other. 

Oh, first thing I noticed first time I saw the trailer. His helmet got white eyes. Gear choices coming.

----------


## G-Potion

These artists are fast.





Source: http://dapandabanda.tumblr.com/

----------


## Alycat

> The game story doesn`t exactly follow the comic and vice versa, right? It`s more like one product expands the world for the other. 
> 
> Oh, first thing I noticed first time I saw the trailer. His helmet got white eyes. Gear choices coming.


It's actually quite confusing because the game makes multiple comic references and quite a few storylines, but changes other parts like Damian leaving Batman

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Oh wow that was fast  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

I`m warming up to this Super. It`s so clearly over the top that helps sell that dramatic flair.

----------


## Alycat

Thank you Aioros22  for saving me time in looking for reactions! Can't wait to see Max's.

----------


## G-Potion

> I`m warming up to this Super. It`s so clearly over the top that helps sell that dramatic flair.


True. His moves are very in-character for him.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> The game story doesn`t exactly follow the comic and vice versa, right? It`s more like one product expands the world for the other. 
> 
> Oh, first thing I noticed first time I saw the trailer. His helmet got white eyes. Gear choices coming.


The game takes the comic in board strokes. It references a few things from the comics like Fate saving Canary by taking her to another Earth and Harley referencing the time Alfred kicked Superman's ass. Other times it ignores it like Batman's chapter.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Thanks! Lovely analysis video.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

More reaction with slow-mo action as well.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Too soon to say for sure but given how restrained the dialogue between Jason and Damian was on the trailer, it would seem Jason is on good terms with the Batfamily on the Injustice-verse

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



----------


## Rac7d*

Jason is on superman side right he better be. His presence destroys batmans arguments.

----------


## Alycat

> Jason is on superman side right he better be. His presence destroys batmans arguments.


Why would Jason side with a dictator? The Regime is horrible.  Joker was whatever, but they murder and cripple people just for disagreements. Jason should be on his own side.

Also hoping for unique dialogue with this DLC.

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood trending in the US.

----------


## Kalethas31

I love!! They did very well

----------


## godisawesome

> Why would Jason side with a dictator? The Regime is horrible.  Joker was whatever, but they murder and cripple people just for disagreements. Jason should be on his own side.
> 
> Also hoping for unique dialogue with this DLC.


I agree. Jason's an outlaw, with a heavy anti-authoritarian streak. I mean, c'mon, "Outlaws." He still operates in a world with a status quo he respects for regular people; his mean streak is focused on supervillains and murderers. He'd probably, for instance agree with the idea of killing Brainiac as punishment, but also agree that keeping him alive to find the city's makes sense.

----------


## Aahz

The gamepkay looks really awesome only thing I'm missing are the all blades.

----------


## G-Potion

At least his dagger made it. And the liberal amount of explosives.  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

Btw. I'm wondering if he will also soon revealed in the Injustice comics now that the gameplay is out.

----------


## adrikito

> It has begun!


I see the trailer today... IS AMAZING  :Cool:   :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

> Btw. I'm wondering if he will also soon revealed in the Injustice comics now that the gameplay is out.


I didn't think about it before, but the timing fits.

----------


## Aioros22

> Red Hood trending in the US.


Can you feel it

Coming in the air tonight, oh lord  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

And you know what? They keep coming

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> At least his dagger made it. And the liberal amount of explosives.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: https://lets-jam.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Red Hood and Joker being the only characters in the game to world trend on Twitter is the sort of fan intel that makes WB executives go "Hmmm Money". 

Guaranteed that they`re putting these two in a movie down the road. _Guaranteed._

----------


## G-Potion

> Red Hood and Joker being the only characters in the game to world trend on Twitter is the sort of fan intel that makes WB executives go "Hmmm Money". 
> 
> Guaranteed that they`re putting these two in a movie down the road. _Guaranteed._


Was surprised those two were the only ones too. Stars are aligned right today.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

I learnt to make a gif today.

----------


## Aioros22

> Was surprised those two were the only ones too. Stars are aligned right today.


Let`s be honest here, it was already money. They already planted the seeds off the gate in two different movies. This is just the sort of data that cements the interest for the investment. 

If the Nigthwing or Batgirl movies don`t stay in studio limbo they`ll also play with those seeds and give other hints. It`s just obvious.

----------


## G-Potion

> Let`s be honest here, it was already money. They already planted the seeds off the gate in two different movies. This is just the sort of data that cements the interest for the investment. 
> 
> If the Nigthwing or Batgirl movies don`t stay in studio limbo they`ll also play with those seeds and give other hints. It`s just obvious.


But seriously. Where are all these Red Hood fans coming from to take over twitter.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

I know it shouldn`t but I just read this in one of the *many* vídeo comments and made me crack a smile  :Wink: 

Red Hood: Looks like you inherited Dick's title
Damian: Which one Robin or Nightwing?
Red Hood: Nope, _Dick_.

----------


## Aioros22

The absolute highlight of the highlights. This definatly got one of the best reactions out of the audience in the live stream vídeo presentation.

----------


## pansy

> I learnt to make a gif today.


 And the explosive Gisastic gold medal goes to.Damian face looking at   grenade  :Confused:   hahuha

----------


## Aioros22

That`s cool G!

Absolutey stoked they didn`t overlooked Jason`s agility one bit. He sure loves the spin  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

Say hello to my litle friend!

----------


## G-Potion

> I know it shouldn`t but I just read this in one of the *many* vídeo comments and made me crack a smile 
> 
> Red Hood: Looks like you inherited Dick's title
> Damian: Which one Robin or Nightwing?
> Red Hood: Nope, _Dick_.


10/10 Need to be ingame.

----------


## G-Potion

> The absolute highlight of the highlights. This definatly got one of the best reactions out of the audience in the live stream vídeo presentation.


Always manage to crack a smile every time a reaction video gets to this part.

----------


## G-Potion

This guy knows no restraint. His projectiles are all over the place.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

The parry/counter with the spinning guns was sick too. I probably got even more a kick out of that one since my favorite characters out of my favorite Figthers all have a strong counter game in common.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> The parry/counter with the spinning guns was sick too. I probably got even more a kick out of that one since my favorite characters out of my favorite Figthers all have a strong counter game in common.


Let me make a gif out of that real quick. A shame that gun throw steals all the gif-ing privileges.

----------


## Aioros22

Reactions, reactions everywhere!

----------


## G-Potion

Spinning, spinning. 

That gun twirling looks like how AK!Red Hood does it.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s so damn sick. If there`s one thing that frustates online gamers as much as spamming (but for different reasons) is cirurgical parry. That`s high level of Gun-Fu  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> Say hello to my litle friend!


Redefine a pat on the back.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

I was just thinking, that last shot. Is it an explosive bullet or was Damian actually kissing a grenade planted there before Jay made the jump?

----------


## G-Potion

> I was just thinking, that last shot. Is it an explosive bullet or was Damian actually kissing a grenade planted there before Jay made the jump?


When he jumps, he throws one gun up to slap a grenade on Damian's back.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh daaaaah, that`s what it is. 

Sick, just sick. His variety is the strongest point of the gameplay. no questions about it.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Alycat

Okay, his super has actually grown on me. It's so simple but dramatic at the same time.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

> 


Ah alright, the slow-mo clearly shows the grenade being planted by the pat on the back while one of the guns spins.

----------


## Aioros22

> Okay, his super has actually grown on me. It's so simple but dramatic at the same time.


Over the top stylish. It`s flair but with purpose. He doesn`t waste any movement. 

In fact, that`s his gameplay in a flash.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep. Watching in slow-mo does show you a ton of extra stuff he does, with devastating effect.

----------


## G-Potion

The reactions are still rushing in. I'm failing to catch up already lol.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## FishyZombie

> Spinning, spinning. 
> 
> That gun twirling looks like how AK!Red Hood does it.


LMAO, I love this bit! Jason's like "noooope, not this time, motherf^cker"

----------


## Aioros22

Undecisive minds? Red Hood will make you pay  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/869012817877360640

Once again, from Boon`s Twitter, the response has beem overwhelmingly positive. That salty Joker fan is cute too.

----------


## Alycat

> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/869012817877360640
> 
> Once again, from Boon`s Twitter, the response has beem overwhelmingly positive. *That salty Joker fan is cute too.*


Of all people to be salty. His character didn't even deserve to be in the roster. If he was a Static fan or a Nightwing fan I would understand, but lol Joker.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

_The Dark Knight meets the Arkham Knight with the Batman Arkham Knight Square Enix Collectible Figure.

Based on the Batman: Arkham Knight video game, this 11-inch-tall figure has styled himself to be an anti-Batman, wearing a Dark-Knight-style textured suit with mechanical armor, army fatigues, and an Arkham A on his chest. In addition to three interchangeable hands and a display stand, the figure also comes with a sniper rifle, two handguns, and a helmet with a translucent visor and glowing eye paint effects.
_

----------


## Aioros22

> Of all people to be salty. His character didn't even deserve to be in the roster. If he was a Static fan or a Nightwing fan I would understand, but lol Joker.


Salt makes Sass sweeter. 



- Grandma recipes book.

----------


## kaimaciel



----------


## Alycat

> 


lol I was looking for this one yesterday, since these guys are always hilarious. BTW, do you guys think the DLC characters will have Premier skins? Red Hood's Arkham outfits work well as gear, but I also think he could work as a skin instead of putting another potential gun character in there.

----------


## Aioros22

Over in Boon`s Twitter there`s been demand for a Grifter premier skin for Red Hood.

----------


## Alycat

Grifter could work really well. Would'nt even have to change the look too much/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

If there`s one thing I`m really pleased is the unanimous opinion of Red Hood not playing as a zoner, which was the main gameplay concern. He looks really balanced, with zoning properties yes, but more a rushdown, melle type of fighting where the guns are usually pulled to finish the string combos instead of relying on them like others do. 

Really pleased.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

From someone who doesn't know about Jason.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

> From someone who doesn't know about Jason.


I was about to post this one earlier on  :Big Grin: 

"Who is this guy, Red Hood? I wanna know!" I chuckled hard at his "how the frag is a Robin this BADASS?!".

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/

Part 1:

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/

Part 2:

----------


## G-Potion

"I see you, Red Hood."   :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

"Red Hood shoots everything, including the fourth wall."   :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Ohhhhh boy

----------


## Alycat

I havent gotten there yet, but  the art made Artemis too short  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

Nah, she`s on the foreground. 

Where is that sweet page from? The Trinity meeting preview?

----------


## Alycat

> Nah, she`s on the foreground. 
> 
> Where is that sweet page from? The Trinity meeting preview?


The Trinity issue that came out today. It's the last page from the Annual.

----------


## Aioros22

With all the Injustice media and hype it overslept my radar. 

To the Comic Shop!

----------


## G-Potion

Spikes! And he conks people with them.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ohhhhh boy


Okay cool! So, what's the context here if you don't mind giving us a rundown?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

There's not a lot of context to be honest. After the Trinity foils Circe and Ra's plans they vanish alongside something called the Pandora pits and while Circe is gloating about fate the Outlaws show up. Cool art aside, I'm actually bugged by the familiarity Circe talks to them.

----------


## Alycat

> Spikes! And he conks people with them.


The spikes are probably what also what channels the electricity attacks like Injustice Batgirl could do. Yeah so the ending of the Trinity issue was confusing. It seems like they're working together with Circe?

----------


## G-Potion

I like how they keep the hidden weapon theme with him. Like how Lobdell gave Jason a knife in the toe of his boot.

I just hope they're not mindcontrolled. Artemis looks kinda dazed?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Given we know they're sacrificed on upcoming issues, seems like yeah, they're under Circe's spell.

----------


## Alycat

> Given we know they're sacrificed on upcoming issues, seems like yeah, they're under Circe's spell.


Yeah that makes a lot more sense. Also Ra's face in that one panel makes him look pretty dazed as well lol.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I like how they keep the hidden weapon theme with him. Like how Lobdell gave Jason a knife in the toe of his boot.
> 
> I just hope they're not mindcontrolled. Artemis looks kinda dazed?


Jason's mask is damaged, too.

----------


## G-Potion

Analysis and slow-mo goodness.

----------


## Aioros22

I think it`s a given they`re supposed to be mindcontrolled. 

Circe`s familiarity with the trio can read odd at first but with Ras there giving the intel it doesn`t strike me as much. He`s obviously the one selling information about them.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Oooo, nice properties analysis work there, move by move.

----------


## G-Potion

Honestly love the "Let's dance" voice-over for the intro.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Ohhhhh boy


I'm calling it. They are going to be turned into monster manifestations of their inner demons or something similar.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://dar-draws.tumblr.com/






In case you`re wondering, that`s uncle Jay and Kory`s daugther.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm calling it. They are going to be turned into monster manifestations of their inner demons or something similar.


_Tentacle monster Returnss_

I kid, calm down ya`ll. I don`t know what will happen but I _am glad_ they`re the focous point of the entire reunions of the Trinity. Luckily they will have an active part of the plot too. And if they do get to be inner manifestations, well, we already know which is Jason`s  :Big Grin: 



Now, if they turn in some monsters or something, make it creative.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

> http://dar-draws.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> In case you`re wondering, that`s uncle Jay and Kory`s daugther.


Mari Grayson is a treasure. The only Dick kid I'll accept. Jason would be an excellent uncle too.

----------


## Aioros22

_
Old habits die hard_

Man, i love when people thread things up. Funtastic!

----------


## Aioros22

> Mari Grayson is a treasure. The only Dick kid I'll accept. Jason would be an excellent uncle too.


I`d be sorry for anyone who tries to date her because Jason is the sort of character who doesn`t let things slip by. I`ve actually read about it in an opinions post over in Tumblr from a longtime reader about how Jay is the sort of person to be socially active that way. In terms of justice that is. 

Someone rounds around a woman? He`s going there and smart the fellas up and if they don`t want to, he`ll knock the fools out. Child rings? You better run because you`ve got a target up your arse now. 

Break up the princess heart or played her around? Unca Jay is paying you a midnight visit  :Wink:

----------


## Alycat

> I`d be sorry for anyone who tries to date her because Jason is the sort of character who doesn`t let things slip by. I`ve actually read about it in an opinions post over in Tumblr from a longtime reader about how Jay is the sort of person to be socially active that way. In terms of justice that is. 
> 
> Someone rounds around a woman? He`s going there and smart the fellas up and if they don`t want to, he`ll knock the fools out. Child rings? You better run because you`ve got a target up your arse now. 
> 
> Break up the princess heart or played her around? Unca Jay is paying you a midnight visit


Why isn't this a fic yet?  :Frown: 

Also, do you guys think the return of YJ gives us some Jason potential?

----------


## Aioros22

> Why isn't this a fic yet? 
> 
> Also, do you guys think the return of YJ gives us some Jason potential?


Maybe not at first because of the hiatus but I think they eventually want to go there. They certainly seemed to with the Jason reveal. 

Or, in other words, as soon the DCEU sprints there, so will they.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m going as far as say that the plotline of there being two Roy Harpers gives full credit to it. YJ could still have one and "Outlaws" another. 

It was certain that they weren`t above pulling Easter Eggs, like Arsenal going full bazzoka on a building where Luthor is which is totally mirroring what Jason did to Black Mask in UTRH.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

This might be one of the most popular Jason posts.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Remember Red Hood: Homecoming? Well, the boys just did a little teaser for the upcoming continuity of the series  :Cool: 




_
That must have gone well with cars passing by. "Holy shit!"_

----------


## Aioros22

_
And this kids, is how I became the Red hood_

----------


## Aioros22

bvkim.tumblr.com

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/870352341660192768

----------


## Aioros22

Awesome!

Real hype for the coming months.

----------


## Aioros22

Some more

----------


## Alycat

I love Soy's art so much. It's just so expressive. Although someone should tell Jason that you might as well take off the helmet at that point.

----------


## pansy

> [SIZE=1]


I think of Janson giving funny gifts ... like a well-wrapped box full of carrots using condoms.

----------


## Aioros22

That last bit reminded me of Noel and true enough another poster mentioned it today

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Tony Stark

> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/870352341660192768


Thanks for sharing. Looks amazing.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/870352341660192768


Double yay?   :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> I love Soy's art so much. It's just so expressive. Although someone should tell Jason that you might as well take off the helmet at that point.


I know the perfect answer to this but have yet to find it. In the mean time.

----------


## G-Potion

> I love Soy's art so much. It's just so expressive. Although someone should tell Jason that you might as well take off the helmet at that point.


Here here. Aioros22 posted it a while back.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: https://careamorran.tumblr.com

----------


## Alycat

Okay that was cute. Although it did make me think about the fact that he doesn't wear the domino under the helmet anymore.

----------


## Aioros22

> Double yay?


Thank you Soy chant.

----------


## G-Potion

He ran out of mana lol.







What class do you guys think would Jason be in an MMORPG?

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Concept art for Injustice 2 Red Hood. Those blades though!!! Shame if they were scrapped.



Source: https://www.facebook.com/justinmurrayart

----------


## Aioros22

Oh boy, people still making them after 5 days  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

I`m thinking Jason`s blades are going to be Gear or Ability.

----------


## Alycat

> I`m thinking Jason`s blades are going to be Gear or Ability.


I think the only person with gear that changes significantly is Robin who gains a Nightwing move set.if Jason's trailer is like most of the others, then we already saw his other ability somewhere.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Double yay?


So excited for this. The All Caste was one of Lobdell's best additions to Jason's backstory and I was worried about Rebirth scrapping it. On the flip side, is going to be interesting to see the reactions from people who didn't like it.




> Concept art for Injustice 2 Red Hood. Those blades though!!! Shame if they were scrapped.
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/justinmurrayart


Someone at DC really loves those blades. They only shown on two pages and still managed to sneak into the action figure, on B&R Eternal (I did like how well worked in tandem with Medri's design though) and on Injustice. That said, I think i would've been cooler than the electrified guns' bottoms but hopefully those are gear or something.

If anyone's interested I made the art bigger

----------


## pansy

> 


Jason on his afternoon tea ... cherry flavor.: P

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Fingers crossed the guy on the right, between Hawkman and Grundy is Jason.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

It could be, it's just hard to tell...What's the image from? Or is that the lead in to DC universe movie thing they did for Wonder Woman?

----------


## G-Potion

> Fingers crossed the guy on the right, between Hawkman and Grundy is Jason.


Fingers crossed. But where is this from?

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Don't know where this is from but it's interesting that they draw Jason with a trench coat.

----------


## pansy

14267394.jpgJason?

----------


## G-Potion

> 14267394.jpgJason?


 I guess?

----------


## pansy

> I guess?


14267394.jpgIt looks like his posture.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice gifset from http://batfamgo.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Alycat

For people asking that's the DC intro that showed before Wonder Woman. You can see Nightwing there too. It's a really cool intro.

----------


## Aioros22

That seems Jason alright. You can make out a logo in the chest and the red hue in the face/helmet.

----------


## G-Potion

> For people asking that's the DC intro that showed before Wonder Woman. You can see Nightwing there too. It's a really cool intro.


Oh thanks! I need to go see WW soon.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://kuchibread.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: https://liviedoodles.tumblr.com

----------


## dietrich



----------


## Savatewolf

Let's say for instance that's not Jason Todd in the intro. Who that's not a d-lister could that possibly be?

----------


## Alycat

> Let's say for instance that's not Jason Todd in the intro. Who that's not a d-lister could that possibly be?


I have no idea , it flashed so fast in the theatre and I haven't seen a non blurry version yet. Batgirl and Nightwing are there and so are people with no confirmed movies so it's a general logo it seems.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

Yes, The Dark Knight and Under the Red Hood are definitely the best DC movies, but the pic is misleading imo since non theatrical animated releases don't usually get as many reviews as the other stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


I know it's not fair to compare them but nonetheless.... Deserved.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://cassperclearie.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://noei1984.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://noei1984.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://guinnessyde.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://ineedsomecake.deviantart.com/

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t recall watching this scene but it`s bound to be from Season 3




I like it. Writers totally went meta on us and said "yeah this Roy has some Jason alright and we`re making it oficial".

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> Yes, The Dark Knight and Under the Red Hood are definitely the best DC movies, but the pic is misleading imo since non theatrical animated releases don't usually get as many reviews as the other stuff.


Juuuuust having fun  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

http://annakiinn.tumblr.com

----------


## Alycat

> Juuuuust having fun


Oh you.

Also yeah I always assumed Arrow Roy was a Jason/Dick mixture. Just like the rest of the team is a mix. Also I hope the Teen Titans stuff we get is in a whole separate universe from the Arrow stuff. Let them have their Batman elements, so the new show isn't bogged down with trying to make sense of it all.

----------


## G-Potion

AK Red Hood banter




Source: https://jarenward.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://baeson-todd.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Alycat

> AK Red Hood banter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://jarenward.tumblr.com


Neat . I missed a lot of these in my play throughs. Troy Baker did such a good job. Kinda wish he was doing Injustice as well but I guess he might be busy with The last of us work at the moment and they like keeping series separate.

----------


## G-Potion

> Neat . I missed a lot of these in my play throughs. Troy Baker did such a good job. Kinda wish he was doing Injustice as well but I guess he might be busy with The last of us work at the moment and they like keeping series separate.


I like the new Injustice voice so far. Jensen Ackles and Troy Baker were amazing but it's exciting to hear new takes from other actors as well.

----------


## G-Potion

AK Boss Battle dialogs




Source: http://baeson-todd.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh you.
> 
> Also yeah I always assumed Arrow Roy was a Jason/Dick mixture. Just like the rest of the team is a mix. Also I hope the Teen Titans stuff we get is in a whole separate universe from the Arrow stuff. Let them have their Batman elements, so the new show isn't bogged down with trying to make sense of it all.


Well, I get that the comparison wouldn`t be fair but on the other hand, hey executives....lookit!

Arrow`s Roy is a mix of Roy Harper and Jason to me. But an expecific Roy Harper, brindging from the O`Neil to Wolfman`s Titans. He`s got the smootheness, devil may care of early Roy. Bastard didn`t even think twice of hitting Speedy. But the rest of hard characteristics and the backround are Jason`s. 

Since I like my Arrows, I don`t care much about the mixes they make. As long elements are still recgonizable, I`m fine and it`s meta fun all the way.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It was a bug, he's not out yet.

----------


## Savatewolf

New watchtower on Wednesday and the host posted on reddit that we might see Red Hood this week

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## G-Potion

Man he looks so good. 

From the side, it's definitely interesting the way his helmet is designed.

----------


## The Whovian

> 


Awesome! My son just came home from his friend's house and said they were playing this game and it's one of his favorites right now.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Alycat

Pls have Arkham Knight Gear. Pls pls pls. Woof some of that gear is ugly.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Chains!!

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## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



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## Alycat

I guess Jason took all the hoods from Green Arrow.

----------


## G-Potion

So scrawny without jacket?

----------


## Aioros22

> Pls have Arkham Knight Gear. Pls pls pls. Woof some of that gear is ugly.


Please, every character has gear that you won`t like. I already see some I love: 



That`s totally Thomas Grayson: aka future Red Hood aesthetics at the right. But I like the hood/helmet combo at left. 



Classic looking helmet. 



Modernized looking helmet. 

They`re probbaly saving the AK gear for last because is more in demand. These are all for "Red Hood".

----------


## G-Potion

Does the thing on some of his chest piece look like red bat logo?

Really love all the jackets and shoulder pads.

----------


## G-Potion

Might get to see him in action soon.

----------


## Aioros22

He might look scrawny without the jacket because of how the picture was taken. I doubt the difference in builk is huge unless the gear helmet looks out of proportion.

----------


## Alycat

> Does the thing on some of his chest piece look like red bat logo?
> 
> Really love all the jackets and shoulder pads.


I can't tell. It was in the concept art though.

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion

Ok definitely bat symbol.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh yesss that last one is nice. His helmet resembles a samuray mask. I like the subtle lines in the previous one too.

----------


## G-Potion

I like how intentionally creepy the first one is also.

----------


## G-Potion

How about just giving him Red Ranger helmet for kicks?

----------


## Alycat

Dat waist :0

----------


## G-Potion

Nice gauntlets.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dat waist :0


Ok I laughed. Was too busy ogling the clothes and not the man.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

4:48, dark tones with armor and hood and red helmet and chest symbol. Me gethis.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> 4:48, dark tones with armor and hood and red helmet and chest symbol. Me gethis.


I like ALL the gear combinations in this video. Holy!

----------


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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


Just add the red bat and change the hood color to red and that is pretty much Medri's design. I love it.

Pity you won't be able to remove his helmet from the look of it though.

----------


## Aioros22

There`s variations with the hood colored red I think and can`t you mix elements up?

----------


## Aioros22

Some gifs from one of the videos of gear that drew me in:

AK Red Hood colors


That`s totally Winnick`s Helmet


The one I mentioned earlier

----------


## Aioros22

Winnick`s Helmet variation with jacket on

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Just add the red bat and change the hood color to red and that is pretty much Medri's design. I love it.
> 
> Pity you won't be able to remove his helmet from the look of it though.


Looks like Azrael.

----------


## G-Potion



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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason's release date (and most likely gameplay breakdown) on tomorrow's stream

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/872183397652860930

----------


## Aioros22

And here`s hoping it`s not actually Raiden but Static, that Constantine is there, that is not Enchantress but Mera (altho..I like both) and that it`s definatly Black Manta. Azrael is so so to me here.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason's release date (and most likely gameplay breakdown) on tomorrow's stream
> 
> https://twitter.com/noobde/status/872183397652860930


Really looking forward to see more of Red Hood. Particularly more voicework with all the intro dialogues, a fan reveal of the Arkham Knight skin/gear (or any number of skins for Jason like Grifter) and expanded showcase of his strong combos and abilities.

----------


## Aioros22

All the Gear pictures that have been revealed thus far in one single video, for viewing pleasure? This is it

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks a bunch!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

> And here`s hoping it`s not actually Raiden but Static, that Constantine is there, that is not Enchantress but Mera (altho..I like both) and that it`s definatly Black Manta. Azrael is so so to me here.


It's definitely Raiden since they referred to him  in game and also released Static concept art, which they  prob wouldn't do if he were actually in the game. I wish DC and Milestone stuff was straightened out. With that disappointment out of the way I'm also expecting Enchantress, which would prob mean Constantine not getting in.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Concept art for Injustice 2 Red Hood. Those blades though!!! Shame if they were scrapped.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/justinmurrayart


awesome!!!!

----------


## Aioros22

> It's definitely Raiden since they referred to him  in game and also released _Static concept art_, which they wouldn't do if he were actually in the game. I wish DC and Milestone stuff was straightened out. With that disappointment out of the way I'm also expecting Enchantress, which would prob mean Constantine not getting in.


They have? I know there`s Raiden art in the preview of this video before it starts to run but unless I missed it, there`s nothing official in the actual vídeo. It`s just reused artwork. Now, everything seems to point out it`s him but until I get the confirmation I`m memusing the chance that it`s a red herring ala Baraka. 

I think both Mera and BM push the Aquaman property well enough and Enchantress alone feels..well lonesome without a dark occult counterpart like Constantine. The only one that seems rather secure are Atom and Manta. Fingers crossed.

----------


## G-Potion

Soon this thread will be flooded with vids about Jason's gameplay/gear/intro dialogs/clash dialogs/gameplay reaction etc etc.  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They have? I know there`s Raiden art in the preview of this video before it starts to run but unless I missed it, there`s nothing official in the actual vídeo. It`s just reused artwork. Now, everything seems to point out it`s him but until I get the confirmation I`m memusing the chance that it`s a red herring ala Baraka. 
> 
> I think both Mera and BM push the Aquaman property well enough and Enchantress alone feels..well lonesome without a dark occult counterpart like Constantine. The only one that seems rather secure are Atom and Manta. Fingers crossed.


Alycat meant Static's concept art, not Raiden's.

A Red Hood multiverse event will go live on june 13th

https://www.reddit.com/r/INJUSTICE/c...se_on_june_13/

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah I thought he meant the _static_ artwork in the select screen that was in the preview, not the actual character. Either way I didn`t catch any concept artwork for him so it didn`t register with me. 

Look alive, fellas, it`s closing by

----------


## Alycat

> They have? I know there`s Raiden art in the preview of this video before it starts to run but unless I missed it, there`s nothing official in the actual vídeo. It`s just reused artwork. Now, everything seems to point out it`s him but until I get the confirmation I`m memusing the chance that it`s a red herring ala Baraka. 
> 
> I think both Mera and BM push the Aquaman property well enough and Enchantress alone feels..well lonesome without a dark occult counterpart like Constantine. The only one that seems rather secure are Atom and Manta. Fingers crossed.


I feel like Enchantress is part of the Suicide Squad ideas they prob decided to push even before the movie came put. Gives us a female magic character too without bringing back Zatanna. Alo a lot more versatile than Mera, who's magic is more water focused. Although maybe they could be premier skins for who ever doesn't get in?


I hope Jason releases during an E3 Press Conference or something

----------


## Alycat

Somebody got some Red Hood gameplay somehow

----------


## G-Potion

HOW!! But wow. Thanks, Alycat! Cant wait to watch it.

----------


## Jovos2099

Did anyone notice in jasons fight against doctor fate Jason said that ras al ghul saved his life i wonder if that means that jason came back to life like he did in the under the red hood movie?

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## Alycat

So I'm not crazy and most of that dialogue is new right?

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like it. I just listened to clash dialog with WW. It's _great_.

"You're no warrior."
"I'm the man with a gun."

----------


## Savatewolf

> Did anyone notice in jasons fight against doctor fate Jason said that ras al ghul saved his life i wonder if that means that jason came back to life like he did in the under the red hood movie?


To be fair that is the most universally concise method that both fits in universe and is easier to explain

It's weird how young he sounds but it kind of works for me

----------


## G-Potion

"Should I kill you? Let's take a vote" 

_Damn_.

----------


## G-Potion

To Poison Ivy
"I'll bring your head to Batman."

So... he's on Bat side?

----------


## Alycat

> To Poison Ivy
> "I'll bring your head to Batman."
> 
> So... he's on Bat side?


I'm not sure. Another line implies that Batman doesn't know he back. I wanna see some Superman and Batman dialogue to confirm it.

----------


## G-Potion

Oh I see.
But regardless, his gameplay is sick.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Savatewolf

It seems like Jason is trying to redeem himself by killing all the villains despite it being against Batman's wishes

----------


## G-Potion



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## G-Potion

4000+ people watching live as of now. Trending on YT live.  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

_"I'm still a good guy"_

Awww Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

"You only live twice."  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> _"I'm still a good guy"_
> 
> Awww Jason.


I have the same reaction.  :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

Alright, so an Aquaman intro states that Jason promised Bruce that he would go easy on Aquaman. So maybe he is on Batman's side.

----------


## Savatewolf

Oof language Jason lol

----------


## Alycat

_Red Hood: Joker you son of  Bitch

Joker: here to Haunt your every Dream

Red Hood: I ain't afraid of no ghost_

lmao.

----------


## G-Potion

> _Red Hood: Joker you son of  Bitch
> 
> Joker: here to Haunt your every Dream
> 
> Red Hood: I ain't afraid of no ghost_
> 
> lmao.


Language.  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

So the Cyborg intro confirms he's no fan of the regime for anyone worried about that.

----------


## G-Potion

"I'll bring your head to Batman."
"He's pathetic. You're contemptible."
"You just bring that out in me."

 :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

I also like that he said "No dealing with children" or something along of that line.

----------


## G-Potion

> So the Cyborg intro confirms he's no fan of the regime for anyone worried about that.


Good to know! What does he say?

----------


## Alycat

He said No women or children I think.

Cyborg:

_Red Hood: Can't fight crime without cracking a few heads

Cyborg: Then why are you fighting me?

Red Hood: The regime cracked more than a few_

----------


## G-Potion

Haha the guy just zoned the f- out of Joker at the end.

----------


## G-Potion

Wait did WW just call him a traitor?

----------


## Savatewolf

Your going into a woodchipper

Lmao

----------


## Alycat

> Wait did WW just call him a traitor?


She did. WW is the true villain of Injustice.

----------


## G-Potion

> Your going into a woodchipper
> 
> Lmao


Ahaha I didn't notice it was Swampthing he's talking to the first time.

----------


## Alycat

Jason is in the Damian corner of not knowing how to talk to women. Pleased to beat you.  Just cheesy.

----------


## G-Potion

Ha! "Jason Todd. Pleased to beat you."

----------


## Savatewolf

I just re watched one of the vids and he tells Dinah that she would date him if he killed Superman lol what an ass

----------


## G-Potion

> I just re watched one of the vids and he tells Dinah that she would date him if he killed Superman lol what an ass


Haha really?? Amazing.

----------


## G-Potion



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## Dark_Tzitzimine

All these intros are making me to really look forward at the comic.

----------


## Savatewolf

"Same team Dinah"

"I stop crime not make them"

"If I killed Superman you'd date me"

Man I love how they didn't make him too whiney or too edgy

----------


## G-Potion

He's funny. That's UTRH Jason right there.

----------


## Alycat

Sounded to me like he said She'd thank him, not date. Maybe I'm mishearing.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sounded to me like he said She'd thank him, not date. Maybe I'm mishearing.


Yeah I heard the 'thank' as well.

----------


## Savatewolf

> Sounded to me like he said She'd thank him, not date. Maybe I'm mishearing.


Now that I think about it I think your right, I think the mask filter is mixing me up

----------


## Alycat

Speaking of the mask filter, what do you guys think of the voice? People are saying he sounds too young, but I mean Jason is actually pretty young. Much younger thn people usually think.

----------


## Savatewolf

> Speaking of the mask filter, what do you guys think of the voice? People are saying he sounds too young, but I mean Jason is actually pretty young. Much younger thn people usually think.


I think it comes from both Jensen Ackles and Troy Baker that he doesn't come off as sounding young in those portrayals compared to this one.

I don't mind it myself, but I get where people are coming from

----------


## Savatewolf

"Outlaws can be heroes too"

That's a good one, NRS did great with him  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of the mask filter, what do you guys think of the voice? People are saying he sounds too young, but I mean Jason is actually pretty young. Much younger thn people usually think.


I like it and agree with your point about his voice should be young. I like that despite the mask filter, the different nuances manage to come out well.

----------


## Jovos2099

How do you set spoiler tags i ask because i honestly don't know?

----------


## kaimaciel

June the 13th? Jason is pulling a Jason Voorhees  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

Open with [SPOIL] then close with [ /SPOIL] (ignore the space after bracket)

----------


## Jovos2099

*spoilers:*
i wonder what jason will of think of Bruce's engagement with selina if she says yes of course 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

You might want to delete the space after the [ and make it just [/SPOIL]

----------


## Katana500

> *spoilers:*
> i wonder what jason will of think of Bruce's engagement with selina if she says yes of course 
> *end of spoilers*


I'd expect Jason to be happy. His relationship with Bruce is postitive at the moment so I presume he would be happy that Bruce is happy.

----------


## Aioros22

*Sees all vídeos*

*takes deep breath*

Ma boy.

----------


## Aioros22

Batman: "I`m the hero Gotham needs"

Jason: "and I`m the hero it deserves!"

So few lines and the whole moral game presented off the gate. Nicely done. Can`t believe they used the "you only live twice line"  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> *spoilers:*
> i wonder what jason will of think of Bruce's engagement with selina if she says yes of course 
> *end of spoilers*


He didn`t trust her when he was Robin but I think he`s way past that. Not sure he would care that much to be pulled off in a genuine way. As a note, let`s not forget that in the TDRverse, Bruce was already with Selina by the time "the Last Crusade" hits.

----------


## Aioros22

About the earlier access of Red Hood trought Multiverse: 

_Some players have apparently gotten early access of Red Hood in Injustice 2 through the Multiverse. Players on the Xbox One have found an exploit where if you set the consoles date to June 13th at a specific hour, youll find a Multiverse world entitled No Fear where you can play as Red Hood. 

Although this exploit isnt absolutely reliable, this has caused fans to speculate whether or not June 13th might be the official release date for Red Hood. The Watchtower stream later today by NetherRealm will officially confirm his release date. 
_

----------


## Aioros22

I just noticed that after he stuns you down you have the chance of finish it with a barrage of bullets. Gotta go back to the video with the moves list  to confirm the new setups.

----------


## Aioros22

Darkseidpwns will probably dig this one. This color guide gives me a Michael Lane Azrael vibe.

----------


## pansy

> Darkseidpwns will probably dig this one. This color guide gives me a Michael Lane Azrael vibe.


He seems to be power ranger now.

----------


## G-Potion

> He seems to be power ranger now.


It's only fair.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Some tibits I found really interesting. 

- Bruce doesn`t know he`s back (shoutout to Injustice comic?)

- Ras Al Ghul brought him back (another shotout to the Injustice comic?)

- When Jason meets other killers he always talks about "there`s going far and going too far". Nice, nice, this seems a shotout to the current character. 

- He actually calls Joker "You son of a bitch!"  :Big Grin: 

- He names Dinah, Hal and Selina by their name and Superman`s interaction hints he remembers Jason when he was Robin. Nice, niceee. 

- He`s certainly against the regime and mentions that to every member. Awesome. 

- "That horse is out of the barn" - when a Red Lantern talks about anger... :Cool: 

- "Let`s see if you bleed" - shoutout to the BvS movie. 

- "There`s wrong and there`s worse" - Cool line and a shotout to the necessary evil mentality. There`s worse out there and he hunts them. 

- " I promised Bruce I`d go easy on you" - Obvious shotout to the Batman code he still remembers but only available to some characters. 

- "Ready to duel with the Devil?" - awesome opening line and strikes me as a shotout to Nicholson`s Joker iconic ine.

----------


## G-Potion

> Some tibits I found really interesting. 
> 
> - Bruce doesn`t know he`s back (shoutout to Injustice comic?)
> 
> - Ras Al Ghul brought him back (another shotout to the Injustice comic?)
> 
> - When Jason meets other killers he always talks about "there`s going far and going too far". Nice, nice, this seems a shotout to the current character. 
> 
> - He actually calls Joker "You son of a bitch!" 
> ...


Nice, nice!  :Big Grin:  

It's interesting as to where he stands. Obviously against the Regime, but probably kept at a distance by Batman. WW says he's a traitor which I find intriguing.

Also his intro with Bane alludes to them meeting each other before?

----------


## Alycat

Quick reminder that the stream should be starting about now.

----------


## G-Potion

People are screaming LATE haha.

----------


## Alycat

The #NoRaiden is hilarious.

----------


## G-Potion

It's here finally.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

Yes, lots of tools for set ups and a lovely air grab.

----------


## G-Potion

The gunfu potential is endless.

----------


## Alycat

Gun throw being an ability sucks.

----------


## G-Potion

I was surprised about it. But to be honest, it looks like it's the one that affects his effectiveness the least so okay.

----------


## Alycat

Hes kinda  like a Nightwing/Batman/Harley/Batgirl hybrid




> I was surprised about it. But to be honest, it looks like it's the one that affects his effectiveness the least so okay.


But it looks so cool  :Frown:  Also I'm a bit traumatized from trying to get the staff of Grayson. Still trying in fact.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aahz

tumblr_lyinkbO9pz1r8whb3o1_1280.jpg

This kind of wants me to see a Red Hood Knight Rider Cross Over.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

From http://underthetreecreatives.tumblr.com/







*Red Hood: Dogs to the Fight. Coming Soon.*

Jason Todd was once a Robin -sidekick of Batman-, until he was captured, tortured, and presumed killed by the crazed Joker. Seemingly back from the dead, Jason Todd assumes the identity of The Red Hood. Red Hood: Dogs to the Fight follows Jason as he re-emerges in the Gotham underworld, starting his own lethal war on crime, starting with the elusive Black Mask and his gang.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://greenfr.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

That picture reminded me of my favorite line of his intros




"This is Hell and I`m the Devil!"

Savage.

----------


## Arsenal

In a span of a few years, I went from having no idea who Jason Todd/Red Hood was to him possibly being my favorite DC character of all time. Definitely top 5.

----------


## Aioros22

> In a span of a few years, I went from having no idea who Jason Todd/Red Hood was to him possibly being my favorite DC character of all time. Definitely top 5.


Really happy to read that from new fans. There was a thread recently talking exactly about biggest characters returns in Comics and I feel at DCU, Hal and Jason are at the top.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## kaimaciel

Alright, my theory is that Jason was resurrected later in this universe, hence why his voice is a lot younger. His bio says he was dropped in the Pit years after he died, so he didn't age. We know Damian was 13 in year one and Injustice happens on year 5/6, so he's around 18 at the end of the first game. Injustice 2 is two years after. Damian and Jason are probably around the same biological age, even though Jason should be in his late twenties chronologically.

----------


## Aioros22

_Michael Jackson - Beat It_

----------


## G-Potion

> In a span of a few years, I went from having no idea who Jason Todd/Red Hood was to him possibly being my favorite DC character of all time. Definitely top 5.


Same. I came to comics pretty late. Started with Batman and somehow Jason is the only one I care about now.

----------


## Aioros22

https://lucasambrosio.blog/2016/12/0...y-photo-shoot/
http://www.spoilerfreemoviesleuth.co...-gruesome.html





_For those of you that dont know, I started my journey in photography by taking photos of my friends in cosplay,  although I dont shoot cosplay anymore when my buddy Crimson Coscrafts approached me with the idea for this photo shoot it got me excited, Batman: Under the Red Hood, is one of my all time favourite animated movies so that gave me extra motivation to make it all happen.

With the success of Dawn of Justice, long time fans noticed a certain easter egg buried within the 2.5/3 hour movie. This contained a brief glimpse of Bruce staring at an old destroyed suit of what appeared to be his former boy wonder, Robin. It had the words HA HA HA JOKES ON YOU BATMAN Sprayed over the suit in a yellow spray paint, with bullet holes and a stab wound in the shoulder, hinting at the Jokers involvement.
In recent months, since the release of BVS and Suicide Squad, we have found out it was in fact Jason Todd who was killed by the Joker. This photo shoot, depicts how we feel this Death in the Family went, a short backstory of the the capture and torture of Jason Todd at the hands of the Joker. Giving the DCEU a short explanation as to why Bruce/Batman has been driven even closer to the edge of despair and why he literally has run out of fucks to give.

We found the perfect location near London, UK and a great team to help us bring our idea to life. I hope you enjoy the photos, and make sure you also watch the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE6X8sYw_nc_

----------


## G-Potion

> Alright, my theory is that Jason was resurrected later in this universe, hence why his voice is a lot younger. His bio says he was dropped in the Pit years after he died, so he didn't age. We know Damian was 13 in year one and Injustice happens on year 5/6, so he's around 18 at the end of the first game. Injustice 2 is two years after. Damian and Jason are probably around the same biological age, even though Jason should be in his late twenties chronologically.


That would be an interesting take, having Damian and Jason close in biological age. Still nees to see how he looks unmasked in the comics though. His fake Batman look is as old as Bruce.

----------


## Aioros22

He called him old and beaten, they just look alike because they`re drawn identical as Batman. When the mask is out of the bag, he`ll look younger. 

That said, given the fake Batman likely fathered a child he will still be quite a bit older than Damian or Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

> He called him old and beaten, they just look alike because they`re drawn identical as Batman. When the mask is out of the bag, he`ll look younger. 
> 
> That said, given the fake Batman likely fathered a child he will still be quite a bit older than Damian or Tim.


Damn. How likely? More than it's likely to be Bruce's?

----------


## Aioros22

That`s the million dollar question. Talia mentioned to Damian that his sister was _"Batman`s"_ child. 

"Batman" not Batman. 

And even then she should have been engineered to grown up faster.

----------


## G-Potion

> That`s the million dollar question. Talia mentioned to Damian that his sister was _"Batman`s"_ child. 
> 
> "Batman" not Batman. 
> 
> And even then she should have been engineered to grown up faster.


Missed the quote marks the fisrt time around. Nooo...!

----------


## Alycat

> That`s the million dollar question. Talia mentioned to Damian that his sister was _"Batman`s"_ child. 
> 
> "Batman" not Batman. 
> 
> And even then she should have been engineered to grown up faster.


I know who to blame now if it happens  :Smile:

----------


## Savatewolf

> That`s the million dollar question. Talia mentioned to Damian that his sister was _"Batman`s"_ child. 
> 
> "Batman" not Batman. 
> 
> And even then she should have been engineered to grown up faster.


Didn't Jason sleep with Talia when she brought him back? That would be an interesting take on that.....awkward aspect

----------


## Aioros22

Red Hood: Lost Days, yeah.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason "nobody insults these shitheads but me" Todd.

----------


## Aioros22

Treasure find: 





The things fan thread up. 

First image incidentily is interesting for two reasons: 

. It shows the moment of Jason`s vow

. It plainly states the legal matter of his adoption (pre crisis) something that wasn`t erased with subquent the Crisis reboot. 

It also strikes me that this era of Batman comics was essential in setting perhaps the _best_ family dinamic of Batman and his sons/allies while maintaining a balance between the darker realistic tone that O`Neil and Adams brought back to the fold as well as the more classic/tweener feel for the younger audiences that categorized the franchise for decades. Frankly, I think it left some lasting legacy (in other media, because market) like TAS.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That`s the million dollar question. Talia mentioned to Damian that *his sister was "Batman`s" child.* 
> 
> "Batman" not Batman. 
> 
> And even then she should have been engineered to grown up faster.


She didn't

----------


## Aioros22

Color me blind as a bat. I was so sure she did I didn`t bothered checking out. Thanks. 

The possibility is still there but G can rest easier now.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

*6208.* 
_
Robin realized that Red X was actually Jason Todd after e responded to the quip "What rock we're you under?" with "My headstone." The only person with the skills and the fatalistic humor of those levels was the Former Second Robin._ 

Submitted by dragonkyng 


I need to check the episode just in case this is really real because a) I didn`t saw every ep with Red X and b) that is really fly Meta.

----------


## Alycat

I don't remember that happening. Pretty sure the only Jason hint was the Teen Titans sort where Beast Boy thinks it's Jason. I'm interested to see if you find out.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah me too. It`s a headcanon I spot online but supposely from a piece of dialogue that took place. 

Gotta check it over the weekend.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> *6208.* 
> _
> Robin realized that Red X was actually Jason Todd after e responded to the quip "What rock we're you under?" with "My headstone." The only person with the skills and the fatalistic humor of those levels was the Former Second Robin._ 
> 
> Submitted by dragonkyng 
> 
> 
> I need to check the episode just in case this is really real because a) I didn`t saw every ep with Red X and b) that is really fly Meta.


It's a headcanon.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah, as much as I enjoy the fanart, Tumblr is the last place you should go to find trivia about any character and/or series. Unless they provide proper sources but even then i would be wary about it.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, as much as I enjoy the fanart, Tumblr is the last place you should go to find trivia about any character and/or series. Unless they provide proper sources but even then i would be wary about it.


I never seen a place that claims to love characters so much but know almost nothing about them. That's for almost all the fandoms there. It might as well be a new character sometimes.

----------


## G-Potion

> Treasure find: 
> 
> 
> 
> It also strikes me that this era of Batman comics was essential in setting perhaps the _best_ family dinamic of Batman and his sons/allies while maintaining a balance between the darker realistic tone that O`Neil and Adams brought back to the fold as well as the more classic/tweener feel for the younger audiences that categorized the franchise for decades. Frankly, I think it left some lasting legacy (in other media, because market) like TAS.


As large as the batfam now is, Jason seems to be the one with the strongest father-son bond with Bruce, both good times and bad times.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Guys,_ guys_  I know it`s headcanon, I know it`s Tumblr. What I am on the lookout is other meta hints in the show less obvious than Beast Boy constant name dropping or the TT keeping the crowbar in some shelf. Thats how headcanons are born.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://fish-ghost.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://fish-ghost.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://fish-ghost.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://xxxviciousxxx.deviantart.com

----------


## Alycat

> 


He animates so well. That said my biggest disappointment so far is the intro dialogue. Too many repeats of things that don't make sense from what I've seen. I haven't seen any clash conversations though.




> Guys,_ guys_  I know it`s headcanon, I know it`s Tumblr. What I am on the lookout is other meta hints in the show less obvious than Beast Boy constant name dropping or the TT keeping the crowbar in some shelf. Thats how headcanons are born.


I honestly can't think of many outside of Red X fighting similar or knowing how Robin fought. Isn't that something that was brought up?

----------


## G-Potion

> He animates so well. That said my biggest disappointment so far is the intro dialogue. Too many repeats of things that don't make sense from what I've seen. I haven't seen any clash conversations though.


Hopefully that's not all there is. Though I'm still happy because he truly has some very good and in-character lines. His clashes so far aren't bad I think. I like the ones with WW and Harley. Also the "Go to sleep, scumbag" sounds very Arkham!Red Hood there.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://touzoku-no-akashi.deviantart.com

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Guys,_ guys_  I know it`s headcanon, I know it`s Tumblr. What I am on the lookout is other meta hints in the show less obvious than Beast Boy constant name dropping or the TT keeping the crowbar in some shelf. Thats how headcanons are born.


The crowbar on the shelf is from TT Go! a series that for its own nature, is useless as source of information regarding a possible bigger picture.

----------


## Alycat

> Hopefully that's not all there is. Though I'm still happy because he truly has some very good and in-character lines. His clashes so far aren't bad I think. I like the ones with WW and Harley. Also the "Go to sleep, scumbag" sounds very Arkham!Red Hood there.


The Joker ones are pretty good but the Batman ones I've seen are baaad. I want to see more Damian ones but I've only seen like 2.

----------


## G-Potion

> The Joker ones are pretty good but the Batman ones I've seen are baaad. I want to see more Damian ones but I've only seen like 2.


I thought the "I'm the hero it deserves" line was pretty good. And that he trolls Bruce with "Let's see if you bleed" ala BvS is pretty funny.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Hopefully that's not all there is. Though I'm still happy because he truly has some very good and in-character lines. His clashes so far aren't bad I think. I like the ones with WW and Harley. Also the "Go to sleep, scumbag" sounds very Arkham!Red Hood there.


I watched a compilation of many of the lines, but not the ones in the clashes, and there's quite a few good ones that paint a picture of what he's about. Very anti-Regime, but he's still killed people but counts himself on the side of Batman. He would like redemption, and there's a hint of regrets, particularly in lines with Damian. And he has a code about what's going too far.

----------


## Aioros22

> He animates so well. That said my biggest disappointment so far is the intro dialogue. Too many repeats of things that don't make sense from what I've seen. I haven't seen any clash conversations though.
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly can't think of many outside of Red X fighting similar or knowing how Robin fought. Isn't that something that was brought up?


See, I don`t know. At the time I never sat and saw the entirety of TT and TTGO and is stuf like that, that makes me hungry to see if there`s truth behind some headcanons.

----------


## Aioros22

> The Joker ones are pretty good but the Batman ones I've seen are baaad. I want to see more Damian ones but I've only seen like 2.


Batman ones are predictable to a point about the clash of values and are nicely delivered. If they didn`t push it further is because in the grand scheme of the story, Batman hasn`t faced him yet. The voicework didn`t dissapoint me and his dialogues have a bit of everything. 

Some are cliché, same with everyone. Others are savage and that`s the way I like it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> tylerkirkhamart#dickgrayson in an upcoming #Redhood annual. #nightwing


https://www.instagram.com/p/BVDAS8bj...ylerkirkhamart

----------


## Alycat

> Batman ones are predictable to a point about the clash of values and are nicely delivered. If they didn`t push it further is because in the grand scheme of the story, Batman hasn`t faced him yet. The voicework didn`t dissapoint me and his dialogues have a bit of everything. 
> 
> Some are cliché, same with everyone. Others are savage and that`s the way I like it.


I was just hoping for more  :Frown:  but yeah story reasons.




> https://www.instagram.com/p/BVDAS8bj...ylerkirkhamart


I said this in the Nightwing thread but Dicks face looks huge. I think it's the jaw. Also wonder who that is in the back.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m going with Jay. 

He looks pretty much how youngr Jason looks under Soy. He even got the same sweater which I`m betting is going to be red.

----------


## RedBird

> Also wonder who that is in the back.


My guess is that its a young Jason, the hoodie kinda resembles the one he wore in the rebirth flashbacks. 
So we have a flashback in the background with Jason, with Dicks face enlarged on the page, I'm guessing he is gonna be reminiscing about the "old days", and speaking about this "flashback". AND on the bottom of the page, considering its a man with hair sticking upright unlike Dicks, I'm guessing that that is current day Jason in the next panel, reacting to whatever Dick is saying.

Thats my prediction and its kinda wishful thinking on my part perhaps, but I wouldn't mind seeing a blend of current day interactions between them as well as interactions before Jasons death. Just to more properly gauge whatever relationship rebirth is establishing or reestablishing between them.

----------


## Aioros22

Good call on that detail at the bottom of the page. 

That looks precisely what they`re going to do. From what I read about the Annual, it will be to bring rapport about their relationship from the old days to the present time. Which is something severily missing considering they were the very first of the legacy. Let`s see if  they keep Dick gaving Jason some teachings into the Robin role.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah I see what you guys mean about flashbacks. Ive been wanting a set take/explanation on their relationship for N52/Rebirth so I have high hopes.

----------


## Aioros22

Be careful not to have overbearing high expectations, it`s still just one story. 

If it`s good and gives a setup for their relationship henceforth, I`m glad.

----------


## Alycat

> Be careful not to have overbearing high expectations, it`s still just one story. 
> 
> If it`s good and gives a setup for their relationship henceforth, I`m glad.


It's too late. RHaTO Rebirth has surpassed my expectations so now it's time to have unreasonable dreams and crushing disappointments.

----------


## Aahz

> He looks pretty much how youngr Jason looks under Soy. He even got the same sweater which I`m betting is going to be red.


I would like to see the the "Poison Idea" logo back on his sweater.

----------


## Aahz

> 


Even the appartment that Jason had as Street Kid, was less messy than Tims Room  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jovos2099

Im not  surprised to learn that jason was/is into punk rock.

----------


## Aahz

> Im not  surprised to learn that jason was/is into punk rock.


Based on this I would say that he was in genral into (Hard) Rock Music. 

Btw. Tim was also ocasionally wearing shirts from Bands like Green Day, Oasis or (in case of the picutre from his bedroom) Loaded, so their taste might not have been so different.

Bruce of course hates Punk  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Bruce sounds so square in that panel  :Wink:  not culture diverse at all Bats. 

Where is that taken from?

----------


## G-Potion

> Even the appartment that Jason had as Street Kid, was less messy than Tims Room


Ah well then. You're such a disaster, Tim.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce sounds so square in that panel  not culture diverse at all Bats. 
> 
> Where is that taken from?


Batman: Fortunate Son, one of the worst batman comics of all time.

----------


## Alycat

> Batman: Fortunate Son, one of the worst batman comics of all time.


Is that the one where Batman got molested by some Rock star?

----------


## Aahz

> Be careful not to have overbearing high expectations, it`s still just one story. 
> 
> If it`s good and gives a setup for their relationship henceforth, I`m glad.


As long as he doesn't push this Jason was never as good as Dick non sense (ideally he debunks it), it will probably be OK.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Full gameplay analysis of the character, hits, setups, range and all the good stuff to get a feel where he stands among the roaster.

----------


## Aioros22

Part deux

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


Wow, those are pretty weak.

----------


## Alycat

Yep that's what I meant. So many repeats and ones that don't make sense because they obviously did not record new dialogue.

----------


## FlyingHero

So I have been reading Red Hood and the Outlaw Rebirth. Not a fan of the run at all. Red Hood is just too much of a Robin. His character goes against everything that makes him. He is not supposed to be good terms with Batman nor seek his approval. He is a tragic character but also more than that. That justice needs to be bloody sometimes. I know people hate the previous run but it did one thing right. Getting Red Hood out of Gotham and let him be himself without the restraint of mr righteous aka Batman and his crew with their stupid no killing rule. Thugs like Black Mask and Joker need to be put down. Jason being in Gotham doesn't let him do that. It doesn't let him be Red Hood. The anti hero.

I think Batman summed it up in the first issue. "This is my town, don't cross the line".

----------


## G-Potion

> So I have been reading Red Hood and the Outlaw Rebirth. Not a fan of the run at all. Red Hood is just too much of a Robin. His character goes against everything that makes him. He is not supposed to be good terms with Batman nor seek his approval. He is a tragic character but also more than that. That justice needs to be bloody sometimes. I know people hate the previous run but it did one thing right. Getting Red Hood out of Gotham and let him be himself without the restraint of mr righteous aka Batman and his crew with their stupid no killing rule. Thugs like Black Mask and Joker need to be put down. Jason being in Gotham doesn't let him do that. It doesn't let him be Red Hood. The anti hero.


What is the thing that makes him?

----------


## adrikito

> source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com


good image.. I liked.

----------


## FlyingHero

> What is the thing that makes him?


Red Hood is a complicated character. It's easier to say what he isn't. Another Robin. 

It's clear to me that DC doesn't know what to do with Red Hood. They can't let him go around and kill Batman' enemies but they can't afford to waste a such popular character at the same time. So they have turned him into a edgy Robin who does a little both of things so they can monetize. 

If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then this character isn't for you. Hes simply not the character I fell in love with.

----------


## Godlike13

> If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then this isn't for you. Hes simply not the character I fell in love with.


I agree. The Red Hood that drew my interest is not the Red Hood were getting now or have been getting for a while now. The current Red Hood bores me. And im sorry but im so tired of images of him hugging people.

----------


## Badou

> Red Hood is a complicated character. It's easier to say what he isn't. Another Robin. 
> 
> It's clear to me that DC doesn't know what to do with Red Hood. They can't let him go around and kill Batman' enemies but they can't afford to waste a such popular character at the same time. So they have turned him into a edgy Robin who does a little both of things so they can monetize. 
> 
> If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then this isn't for you. Hes simply not the character I fell in love with.


I do sort of agree he is a lot more like a typical Robin now, but Lobdell doesn't like writing him like how he was in things like Under the Red Hood and as long as he has full control over the character I don't think we are going to see a Red Hood with his edge back. I imagine that he will eventually go back to being less like Robin eventually, but probably not for a while. Not until his sales take a drastic dive and they want to do something else with him. His book right now is doing pretty well still.

----------


## Aioros22

> Red Hood is a complicated character. It's easier to say what he isn't. Another Robin. 
> 
> It's clear to me that DC doesn't know what to do with Red Hood. They can't let him go around and kill Batman' enemies but they can't afford to waste a such popular character at the same time. So they have turned him into a edgy Robin who does a little both of things so they can monetize. 
> 
> If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then he is not Red Hood. Just a wannabe.


You would seemingly love a storyarc more than the character then. "Under The Hood" is a beginning of a road, one we`re still crossing. In order for it to be a status quo you have to commit to Jason killing and cleaning the streets and that includes stuff like killing the Joker since that`s his main beef. When you mention that very same in your OP that`s the creative Wall they`ve hit before. If you turn Jason a full time antagonist what are you going to do? Make Batman or him look incompetent. Who is that serving up? 

Fans who claim he`s too much like a Robin, or have been, just boggles my mind. Right now he`s more in the middle he ever was (the Grey) and that means that in terms of narrative you can pull push to either direction. You have more gains this way because when you talk about the character of Jason, you have to conciliate that Jason Todd, exactly by being a complex character isn`t a one note Punisher lite and didn`t started as one back then either. When people say "oh, he shouldn`t be friendly to anyone", sir, he was friendly from the beginning. He was also passionate, and angry and troubled and so on. That`s a 3D character. 

You know why there`s so much fanart of Jason and his buddies? Because together with (or better, despite) the edge and antagonism he still also carries the same qualities that he died for. That`s why fans of the animated movie or the game root for him. Because there`s also a sympathetic streak in him.

----------


## Aioros22

> I do sort of agree he is a lot more like a typical Robin now, but Lobdell doesn't like writing him like how he was in things like Under the Red Hood and as long as he has full control over the character I don't think we are going to see a Red Hood with his edge back. I imagine that he will eventually go back to being less like Robin eventually, but probably not for a while. Not until his sales take a drastic dive and they want to do something else with him. His book right now is doing pretty well still.


Jason`s emotional state alone makes it adequate for the arc, again, not a status quo. He was damaged and absorbing what happened and firing back. Now he`s more balanced, more his own man. I can see a few pointing and say "yeah but he answered to nobody!"...yeah, look: in the crossovers he`s had? Batman asks his help not otherwise. DOTF Joker went after him, not otherwise. Rebirth? Jason started the Black Mask deal regardless of whether Bruce trusted him or not at first and he`s doing what he feels right for him. 

On the other hand, you`re always going to have interactions with Batman and Dick, whatever and they`re always going to be personal. Always. So, on that note, I`d rather it be without him being emotionally crippled as he was. You know what sort of follow ups you had when you didn`t move beyond the emotionally crippled Jason? NigthwingYW and BFTC. _No_ thanks.

----------


## Aioros22

> I agree. The Red Hood that drew my interest is not the Red Hood were getting now or have been getting for a while now. The current Red Hood bores me. And im sorry but im so tired of images of him hugging Outlaws.


Fixed  :Wink: 

Because is not the same thing.

----------


## RedBird

Has Jason hugged or been hugged during rebirth at all? I don't remember any hugs.

And I can only think of a total of 6 hugs during the entire new52 duration, with two of those being a final goodbye.

Kori and Jason during their first meeting
Kori and Jason saying goodbye in the "outlaws finale"
Roy and Jason saying goodbye in the "outlaws finale"
Crux hugging Jason as a thank you
Bruce and Jason hugging after that whole acid face thing
Jason hugging Bruce during his memory loss

Thats like an average of one per year, not really that bad.


Special mention to the hug that was part of the flashback montage in Grayson (the issue where he returned to Gotham), even though I certainly dont have any recollection of that "memory".

----------


## Aioros22

He was talking about Fanart but it ends applying to these stories all the same.

----------


## Alycat

I still stand by my opinion that the old Outlaws suck and the new ones are better but since they aren't as pretty there probably won't be as much fanart of them.

----------


## RedBird

> He was talking about Fanart but it ends applying to these stories all the same.


Ah, I see, that applies to any character though doesnt it. Fanart will have characters hugging and being sappy even if they were the worlds most heartless monster or biggest badass. Kinda comes with the territory of being a popular character.

----------


## Aioros22

Sure thing and my first reaction to the "point" was (no offense meant and all) "what a weird thing to mention at". Like, even if you like him best or only in UTRH, he would never hug anyone? Guy is such a cold hearted 90`s badarse that human emotion is somehow beneath him? He`s incapable of it? 

Then you take it at face value and go "Well, technically, he does it mostly to his pals. Maybe Bruce or Alfred ocassionally but other than that he`s usually drawn uncomfortable and usually hates when Dickbird comes around with it" and that`s how it usually comes out in these depictions too, Rebirth included.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So I have been reading Red Hood and the Outlaw Rebirth. Not a fan of the run at all. Red Hood is just too much of a Robin. His character goes against everything that makes him. He is not supposed to be good terms with Batman nor seek his approval. He is a tragic character but also more than that. That justice needs to be bloody sometimes. I know people hate the previous run but it did one thing right. Getting Red Hood out of Gotham and let him be himself without the restraint of mr righteous aka Batman and his crew with their stupid no killing rule. Thugs like Black Mask and Joker need to be put down. Jason being in Gotham doesn't let him do that. It doesn't let him be Red Hood. The anti hero.
> 
> I think Batman summed it up in the first issue. "This is my town, don't cross the line".


Honestly it feels to me that you're letting your bias cloud your judgement towards the series. I mean, how current Jason  _too much of a Robin_? He isn't glued to Batman nor follows his instructions to the letter. 




> Red Hood is a complicated character. It's easier to say what he isn't. Another Robin. 
> 
> It's clear to me that DC doesn't know what to do with Red Hood. They can't let him go around and kill Batman' enemies but they can't afford to waste a such popular character at the same time. So they have turned him into a edgy Robin who does a little both of things so they can monetize. 
> 
> If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then this character isn't for you. *Hes simply not the character I fell in love with.*


Of course he is not the same character from six years ago! He has finally gone through actual character development and it has grew beyond a one trick pony that can't do anything beyond being a thorn on Batman's side.

And you're wrong about DC not knowing what to do with him, they have a perfectly clear idea of where take the character now. And they've had it since the N52. 





> I do sort of agree he is a lot more like a typical Robin now, but Lobdell doesn't like writing him like how he was in things like Under the Red Hood and as long as he has full control over the character I don't think we are going to see a Red Hood with his edge back. I imagine that he will eventually go back to being less like Robin eventually, but probably not for a while. Not until his sales take a drastic dive and they want to do something else with him. His book right now is doing pretty well still.


Is not that Lobdell doesn't like to write Jason like in UTRH is that _he doesn't want to rehash the same story again and again ad infinitum_

He said it as much when he launched RHATO for the first time back on 2011




> *Will we be seeing Batman or Green Arrow or Nightwing in Red Hood and the Outlaws?*
> 
> I think Green Arrow has an extended cameo in issue six or seven, but generally, no -- not planning any encounters between Jason and the Bat Gang. *It seems like a lot of Jason's appearances have involved them and I'd really rather concentrate on defining Jason outside of All Things Bat.* (Now, having said that, I could get a call tomorrow from my editor -- well, Monday because I'm writing this on Saturday morning -- saying something just happened in the Batman or Detective or any of the other ongoings that require Jason's involvement... and RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS would look inconsequential if that wasn't reflected in the book... but as I am writing this I have no plans!)


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/artic...y/1100-143521/

----------


## Dominick1216

Hey guys, I was curious if any of you knew how old Jason is supposed to be in Rebirth? I think he was 19 when New 52 started, and I'm pretty sure two years have passed, so would he be 21?

----------


## Aahz

> Hey guys, I was curious if any of you knew how old Jason is supposed to be in Rebirth? I think he was 19 when New 52 started, and I'm pretty sure two years have passed, so would he be 21?


he is probaly still 19, since (appart from Damian)no other Batfamiloy member aged since the reboot, and Dick is iirc still 21.

----------


## RedBird

Yeah I'm, guessing he is still 19, I dont remember Dick or Tim being aged up so I doubt Jason has either. 
I think DC only aged Damian up so that he would more better qualify as a TEEN Titan being thirTEEN now, after all that was the very comic in which he celebrated his birthday with Alfred.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hey guys, I was curious if any of you knew how old Jason is supposed to be in Rebirth? I think he was 19 when New 52 started, and I'm pretty sure two years have passed, so would he be 21?


There's no concrete age for Jason. Even Lobdell admitted he didn't knew




> What's Jason's current age?
> I don't know.


https://twitter.com/ScottyLobdell/st...14599921016832

----------


## Aioros22

I want to issue a challenge to those who prefer or only enjoy the Under The Hood depiction of Jason with the cavetae that you have to bring character development to the core of the pitch. 

How would _you_ pull it off?

----------


## FlyingHero

> I want to issue a challenge to those who prefer or only enjoy the Under The Hood depiction of Jason with the cavetae that you have to bring character development to the core of the pitch. 
> 
> How would _you_ pull it off?


You put too much value on big character development. Batman has been the same for decades and he has changed but hes also the same as he is still doing what he has always been doing since day 1. 

If I'm going to say something then, I support Lobdell on the whole taking Jason outside of the batfamily thing that he was going for before but with better execution. Something like that again as DC will never let him touch anyone remotely important in Gotham who belongs to Batman's world. It's a big world outside.

----------


## Alycat

I mean it isn't a surprise that people prefer UtRH representation of Jason. For most people, they only know of prefer one version of a character. I mean some on the Injustice 2 reactions/ excitement was just based on that one movie. People have preferences and if a character arc changes it, then It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. I mean I prefer old Harley who was villain with a twisted relationship with Joker. Some people prefer her now as a quirky anti hero or whatever. Neither group is wrong. Same applies to Jason.

----------


## Dominick1216

> Yeah I'm, guessing he is still 19, I dont remember Dick or Tim being aged up so I doubt Jason has either. 
> I think DC only aged Damian up so that he would more better qualify as a TEEN Titan being thirTEEN now, after all that was the very comic in which he celebrated his birthday with Alfred.


Dick aged up too. Tim Seeley posted on twitter that Dick is 23.

----------


## Aioros22

> You put too much value on big character development. Batman has been the same for decades and he has changed but hes also the same as he is still doing what he has always been doing since day 1. 
> 
> If I'm going to say something then, I support Lobdell on the whole taking Jason outside of the batfamily thing that he was going for before but with better execution. Something like that again as DC will never let him touch anyone remotely important in Gotham who belongs to Batman's world. It's a big world outside.


I hope you don`t take what I said as offensive. The challenge is to have people who only like one depiction to pitch how they would do it, how would they keep publishing a said character after that one story. Because, quite honestly, Batman has stayed the same..._superficially_. He`s not the same character he was from earlier decades. He`s not even the same he was since the 70`s or early 80`s. 

Its not about changing the character, it`s about development to go with the times instead of being stuck in one note in narrative terms. You keep what makes the character obviosly iconic to the general audience to catch up but the readers who follow knows what growth they have. Wolverine is still the best at what he does, he still has claws, he`s still a bad boy, but he`s not the same since the 90`s. Character have to grow if you want them at the top and competing for the attention in the market.

----------


## Aioros22

> I mean it isn't a surprise that people prefer UtRH representation of Jason. For most people, they only know of prefer one version of a character. I mean some on the Injustice 2 reactions/ excitement was just based on that one movie. People have preferences and if a character arc changes it, then It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. I mean I prefer old Harley who was villain with a twisted relationship with Joker. Some people prefer her now as a quirky anti hero or whatever. Neither group is wrong. Same applies to Jason.


I didn`t mention it to be wrong. 

I`m asking how would you pick that depiction and write the character in ongoing format.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s me basically just being curious, I find pitches interesting  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

It would take a really good and consistent writer. Trying to think to a character that the situation applies to first.Death stroke maybe?

----------


## RedBird

> Dick aged up too. Tim Seeley posted on twitter that Dick is 23.


Oh, interesting, well if we assume Jason WAS 19 then yeah, hell he may have just aged up. But like Dark_Tzitzimine mentioned his age is kind of an enigma and thanks to the 5 year timeline, it has been up in the air for a while. Hopefully by the end of Rebirth we may gain a more definitive answer depending on how they "fix" the time problem, those "lost years" have been mentioned enough that I'm sure a new or more definitive timeline/continuity may appear to help resolve such questions.

Even in postcrisis, I just assumed Jason was anywhere between 19 - 21, he's kind of fortunate enough that the reboot didnt SEEM to change that aspect too much. 
HOWEVER, in this case I'm kind of hoping his age hasnt been changed or pushed up as of yet. If, for example we accept the current hypothetical age of 19, with Dicks age now being 23, it at least helps to space out the age gap between him and Dick, making it a bit more like the post crisis age gap which was about 6-7 years. Hell if Tim can stay in the magical land of 16-17 years old for over a decade I dont see why this would be a problem.

----------


## Dominick1216

> Oh, interesting, well if we assume Jason WAS 19 then yeah, hell he may have just aged up. But like Dark_Tzitzimine mentioned his age is kind of an enigma and thanks to the 5 year timeline, it has been up in the air for a while. Hopefully by the end of Rebirth we may gain a more definitive answer depending on how they "fix" the time problem, those "lost years" have been mentioned enough that I'm sure a new or more definitive timeline/continuity may appear to help resolve such questions.
> 
> Even in postcrisis, I just assumed Jason was anywhere between 19 - 21, he's kind of fortunate enough that the reboot didnt SEEM to change that aspect too much. 
> HOWEVER, in this case I'm kind of hoping his age hasnt been changed or pushed up as of yet. If, for example we accept the current hypothetical age of 19, with Dicks age now being 23, it at least helps to space out the age gap between him and Dick, making it a bit more like the post crisis age gap which was about 6-7 years. Hell if Tim can stay in the magical land of 16-17 years old for over a decade I dont see why this would be a problem.


It does help if Jason does end up being 19. Let's say that Rebirth actually makes the 15-year timeline come true. Bruce would become Batman at 25 during Year Zero (2001). Dick would probably become Robin when he was probably 12-13, so Years 4-5 (2005-2006), then Jason would probably become Robin at 13, so Year 9 (2010). If Jason was only two years younger than Dick, like he was in New 52, then their tenures as Robin would be way shorter than usual. So, it does work if they're are at least four years apart from each other.

----------


## Aahz

If you by the post cisis comics, Jason is actually not much older than Tim, if Tim is really still only 16, it doesn't make much sense for Jason to be older than 17 or 18. Even 19 would be to old.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I mean it isn't a surprise that people prefer UtRH representation of Jason. For most people, they only know of prefer one version of a character. I mean some on the Injustice 2 reactions/ excitement was just based on that one movie. People have preferences and if a character arc changes it, then It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. I mean I prefer old Harley who was villain with a twisted relationship with Joker. Some people prefer her now as a quirky anti hero or whatever. Neither group is wrong. Same applies to Jason.


Considering that going to the Jason Todd and Red Hood tag on tumblr brings you like six works based on RHATO against two based on UTRH, I'd argue the OG RHATO incarnation of Jason is by far the most widely known nowadays.

To not mention that after being on many different discussion boards about Jason I've seen that the trend with people who asks for UTRH are those who either didn't liked RHATO or downright refused to read it. So yeah.

----------


## RedBird

Is the distaste for this incarnation of Jason coming from the fact that he is in a team book? I think Jasons development may just come off as somewhat backwards to anyone who considers him a lone wolf type of character.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is part of the reasons but simply look at the previous posts on this thread, the main complaint is that Jason has lost _"his edge"_

What does that edge entails exactly, varies to person to person though.

The funny thing about Jason being a lone wolf is that is not entirely true. URTH has him leading a criminal empire, his next appearance has him trying to team up with Mia on GA, then you have him trying the team up thing again with Dick on Nightwing, Lost Days had him being supported and working with Talia, Countdown gave us a proto Outlaws in the Challengers of the Unknown, Morrison gave him an actual sidekick on Scarlet, Jason tried to team up with Tim twice before Flashpoint, his beef with the TT is not being acknowledged as one.

If anything, Jason has always been wanting to be part of something.

----------


## RedBird

Agreed

If Jason was basically punisher lite, a complete aloof lone wolf, then yeah, it would make more sense in the grand scheme of things if he had a solo book first and then slowly developed friendships/relationships till the idea of him fighting alongside a team of other heroes or antiheroes wouldnt sound so off. But Lobdell is making it clear he is not another punisher and personally I'm kinda glad. He makes it pretty clear that Jasons outcast status isnt necessarily desirable, not even to Jason himself. The sort of "lone wolf" shtick that we usually see with heroes/antiheroes who purposefully isolate themselves and then proceed to brood because I guess its been defined as "cool" and "edgy", is avoided here. (That same thing made Batman the semi joke that he is currently in pop culture) Instead we get a more realistic and humanized depiction of just how crushing that kind of true isolation can be. Its a nice subversion to the usual badass anti hero tropes. 

You mention some great arcs where he does desire to be part of something again, and I'll add this, during pre52 the teen titans issue where Jason beats up Tim, at the very end he straight out even ponders if he may have been a better person if he had the opportunity to develop friendships like Tim had. If the previous attempts at teamups weren't clear then that sense of loss and longing is certainly displayed there. Lobdell seems to be treating Jasons character as both a robin and the red hood, which includes giving him chances to develop within a team in ways he didnt previously get to, just like all the previous robins who had their own teen titan groups to better establish their presence within the community.

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## Aahz

> That is part of the reasons but simply look at the previous posts on this thread, the main complaint is that Jason has lost _"his edge"_


I think thats in his own book more a problem with the tone of the book than with his personality. RHatO is (despite having techinically higher rating than the other Batbooks) just not that dark.

When he appears in other Batbooks he is really not that edgy. I really hope that the Annual where he teams up with Dick can fix that a little bit.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, I don`t agree with that one bit. 

We`re talking of a book that touches lines like this one:



and deals themes of isolation, death, traumas, etc. You had a moment where the main character is basically considering killing a "child" because of how potential dangerous he can be. You`ve had two issues of Jason going the deep end and _confronting himself getting wacked and murdered_d and aknowledging he couldn`t do anything about it. I have a feeling some only consider something edgy if it envolves bloodbath or fighting coreography. I have the belief that something can be psychologically edgy and not many Batman books so far has been more than RATHO with Nigthwing and King`s run coming a second place in some sequences but those are more subverted on that approach. 



Aye, RATHO got upbeat moments to balance but they`re there exactly to contrast and have the characters stand up to the dark.

----------


## G-Potion

:Big Grin:

----------


## dietrich

> Yeah, I don`t agree with that one bit. 
> 
> We`re talking of a book that touches lines like this one:
> 
> 
> 
> and deals themes of isolation, death, traumas, etc. You had a moment where the main character is basically considering killing a "child" because of how potential dangerous he can be. You`ve had two issues of Jason going the deep end and _confronting himself getting wacked and murdered_d and aknowledging he couldn`t do anything about it. I have a feeling some only consider something edgy if it envolves bloodbath or fighting coreography. I have the belief that something can be psychologically edgy and not many Batman books so far has been more than RATHO with Nigthwing and King`s run coming a second place in some sequences but those are more subverted on that approach. 
> 
> 
> ...


That's pretty much what they mean when they say edgy. A lot of people deal with trauma, isolation, depression, thought of dying/suicide in their personal lives. And mental health issues are pretty much common place these days as is talking about such things openly so stories dealing with them as good as they are aren't seen as edgy anymore. 

Killing and a person who kills is not part of most people's lives or something they've done or experienced. It is not the norm so it edgy. Some folks just want to see him killing and doing something that is very different from what the rest of the bat clan do.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's pretty much what they mean when they say edgy. A lot of people deal with trauma, isolation, depression, thought of dying/suicide in their personal lives. And mental health issues are pretty much common place these days as is talking about such things openly so stories dealing with them as good as they are aren't seen as edgy anymore. 
> 
> Killing and a person who kills is not part of most people's lives or something they've done or experienced. It is not the norm so it edgy. Some folks just want to see him killing and doing something that is very different from what the rest of the bat clan do.


Maybe is just me but is it really common ground on other titles? King mentions Bruce suicidial touches (it was the arc`s title after all) but he did to parallell Bane`s. It was there but he didn`t went beyond that. You have Nigthwing with horror slash touches with Doltrons (spl) and the like but the edge here is visual. This was true with the New52 launch too. RATHO was more upbeat, a buddy movie summer blockbuster if you will but the darkest thing outside Jason`s encounters with Joker (DOTF, Fallout, Origins) was Damian`s death under Morrison`s INC (of which Jason was also a main) and Tomasi`s dealing with Bruce`s psyche (of which the issue with Jason is bar none the darkest outside the one with Aquaman where Bruce recovers Damian`s corpse - with visual horror in contrast, funny how it goes..). 

I get it, Edgy can certainly take more than one form but regardless, RATHO has been one of the darkest titles of the line since Rebirth and clearly more than it used to be. That said I`m not against the creative team pushing the envelope further..

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Red Hood is a complicated character. It's easier to say what he isn't. Another Robin. 
> 
> It's clear to me that DC doesn't know what to do with Red Hood. They can't let him go around and kill Batman' enemies but they can't afford to waste a such popular character at the same time. So they have turned him into a edgy Robin who does a little both of things so they can monetize. 
> 
> If you love the character from Under the Red Hood and Red Hood Lost days like me then this character isn't for you. Hes simply not the character I fell in love with.


I loved the character from both UtRH and Lost Day but then DC turned him into a whiny, one note, pyscho killer with daddy issues and frankly I hated that. IF some writer had done something with the direction after the initial set up in those two books then I would have been more than fine with "edgy" Jason. The thing is they simply never did a single thing of interest with that direction while simultaneously trying to hold onto the idea and not allowing Jason to come to terms with his traumas. After a time the whole thing stagnated. At least now they have picked a direction, even if some fans believe the character has lost his edge, and have stuck with it this time around.




> That is part of the reasons but simply look at the previous posts on this thread, the main complaint is that Jason has lost _"his edge"_
> 
> What does that edge entails exactly, varies to person to person though.
> 
> The funny thing about Jason being a lone wolf is that is not entirely true. URTH has him leading a criminal empire, his next appearance has him trying to team up with Mia on GA, then you have him trying the team up thing again with Dick on Nightwing, Lost Days had him being supported and working with Talia, Countdown gave us a proto Outlaws in the Challengers of the Unknown, Morrison gave him an actual sidekick on Scarlet, Jason tried to team up with Tim twice before Flashpoint, his beef with the TT is not being acknowledged as one.
> 
> If anything, Jason has always been wanting to be part of something.






> Agreed
> 
> If Jason was basically punisher lite, a complete aloof lone wolf, then yeah, it would make more sense in the grand scheme of things if he had a solo book first and then slowly developed friendships/relationships till the idea of him fighting alongside a team of other heroes or antiheroes wouldnt sound so off. But Lobdell is making it clear he is not another punisher and personally I'm kinda glad. He makes it pretty clear that Jasons outcast status isnt necessarily desirable, not even to Jason himself. The sort of "lone wolf" shtick that we usually see with heroes/antiheroes who purposefully isolate themselves and then proceed to brood because I guess its been defined as "cool" and "edgy", is avoided here. (That same thing made Batman the semi joke that he is currently in pop culture) Instead we get a more realistic and humanized depiction of just how crushing that kind of true isolation can be. Its a nice subversion to the usual badass anti hero tropes. 
> 
> You mention some great arcs where he does desire to be part of something again, and I'll add this, during pre52 the teen titans issue where Jason beats up Tim, at the very end he straight out even ponders if he may have been a better person if he had the opportunity to develop friendships like Tim had. If the previous attempts at teamups weren't clear then that sense of loss and longing is certainly displayed there. Lobdell seems to be treating Jasons character as both a robin and the red hood, which includes giving him chances to develop within a team in ways he didnt previously get to, just like all the previous robins who had their own teen titan groups to better establish their presence within the community.


Quoted both of these because I very much agree with you both.

----------


## G-Potion

Guys, he's here!!!

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## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Maybe is just me but is it really common ground on other titles? King mentions Bruce suicidial touches (it was the arc`s title after all) but he did to parallell Bane`s. It was there but he didn`t went beyond that. You have Nigthwing with horror slash touches with Doltrons (spl) and the like but the edge here is visual. This was true with the New52 launch too. RATHO was more upbeat, a buddy movie summer blockbuster if you will but the darkest thing outside Jason`s encounters with Joker (DOTF, Fallout, Origins) was Damian`s death under Morrison`s INC (of which Jason was also a main) and Tomasi`s dealing with Bruce`s psyche (of which the issue with Jason is bar none the darkest outside the one with Aquaman where Bruce recovers Damian`s corpse - with visual horror in contrast, funny how it goes..). 
> 
> I get it, Edgy can certainly take more than one form but regardless, RATHO has been one of the darkest titles of the line since Rebirth and clearly more than it used to be. That said I`m not against the creative team pushing the envelope further..


You have to understand that  for most people "edgy" has a pretty juvenile meaning. One lifted from anime antiheroes or the violent trend of 90's comics. For most people, they don't care about any nuance the book might have or the fact it tackles some dark themes all the time. If Jason isn't a brooding, quippy loner that kills people every third panel then is not edgy. This is also why people who aren't fan of him immediately labeled his I2 iteration as an edgelord, because it checks all of those notes.

And for the record, I consider Lobdell's work on the title to be a more mature and somber approach than an edgy one.

----------


## RedBird

> I get it, Edgy can certainly take more than one form but regardless, RATHO has been one of the darkest titles of the line since Rebirth and clearly more than it used to be. That said I`m not against the creative team pushing the envelope further..


Same here. I mean if anyone does want to see Jason's more violent or brutal side that's completely fair. The whole marketing appeal of the Red Hood and probably the reason Jason even gets to exist, beside fan demand, is because DC have finally (somewhat) capitalized on what makes him stand out from the crowd, at least on a very superficial level. He is "the bat that kills" or "like batman but lethal". Hell its something I wouldnt mind seeing either, it is a part of Jasons appeal as the red hood. but I dont want my demand for that aspect of the red hood to overshadow the quality of these more psychological stories that we have been receiving as of late. After all, the over emphasis on such a one dimensional trait as "a bat that kills" is what caused a horrible "flanderisation" or simplification of Jasons character after UTRH, which left his characterization to be anything from god aweful and ooc to just plain confusing, lasting for at least half a decade.

This rebirth title may be some peoples introduction to Jason within comics and it seems Lobdell is setting some more groundwork first, pealing back layers of the character for display so that when or if we do see a more violent/brutal incarnation of Jason he will appear as more than a one trick pony.

----------


## Godlike13

What are these other "tricks"?

----------


## RedBird

> What are these other "tricks"?


No tricks just treats  :Big Grin:  Thats the point.

Avoid basing a character upon their behavior or actions from one single story line. 
Usually its only villains that get that kinda one dimensional treatment, which makes sense since most villains are used as a plot device for the protagonist. Its also why some villains are obsessed with the protagonist, their existence depends on them (some are also obsessed with things as equally simple, such as money or in the vaguest sense "power" etc). So being able to see Jason interact with others outside of the batfamily as well as being given a look into his mindset helps to flesh him out a bit more, especially if you are new to him through rebirth.

----------


## G-Potion

Fortified Alfred's Prized Pistols. _Alfred's_!!!

See, this is Jason as a character and not just an edge lord. Netherrealm gets it.

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## G-Potion

> No tricks just treats  Thats the point.
> 
> Avoid basing a character upon their behavior or actions from one single story line. 
> Usually its only villains that get that kinda one dimensional treatment, which makes sense since most villains are used as a plot device for the protagonist. Its also why some villains are obsessed with the protagonist, their existence depends on them (some are also obsessed with things as equally simple, such as money or in the vaguest sense "power" etc). So being able to see Jason interact with others outside of the batfamily as well as being given a look into his mindset helps to flesh him out a bit more, especially if you are new to him through rebirth.


Love this post!  :Embarrassment:

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## G-Potion

Red Hood's ladder ending

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## pansy

> Red Hood's ladder ending


Very cohesive with Jason's way of thinking.

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## AJpyro

> Red Hood's ladder ending

----------


## RedBird

> Red Hood's ladder ending


Characterization A+++ 

Seriously Injustice 2 Jason has been great, he seems to come off as one of the more rational heroes.

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## G-Potion

I love it! Taking Bruce's side over Superman's is already IC writing, but ditching both of them after? _Perfection_.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> See, this is Jason as a character and not just an edge lord. Netherrealm gets it.


That's funny, because the Arcade Ladder ending is the edgiest Jason have been on the last six years. That is something that will please to those claiming currently he has been neutered but for me, it feels like a step backwards on his representation with the public.

Yes, the ending is pretty cool the first time you see it but repeated viewings and thinking a little about it makes the flaws more evident. The deck was already stacked since there's no real character arc to speak of to begin with (unlike say, Damian or Hal's endings) but his ending only endures a pretty limited and shallow characterization for Jason. Like, have him monologue about his ammo served for anything beyond showing how much of badass Jason is? Ok, Jason blows off both the Regime and the Insurgency, what now then? It would've been a much better resolution to have him recruit anyone willing to make a difference and form the Injustice version of the Outlaws.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Red Hood's ladder ending


so jason  :Big Grin:

----------


## godisawesome

> That's funny, because the Arcade Ladder ending is the edgiest Jason have been on the last six years. That is something that will please to those claiming currently he has been neutered but for me, it feels like a step backwards on his representation with the public.
> 
> Yes, the ending is pretty cool the first time you see it but repeated viewings and thinking a little about it makes the flaws more evident. The deck was already stacked since there's no real character arc to speak of to begin with (unlike say, Damian or Hal's endings) but his ending only endures a pretty limited and shallow characterization for Jason. Like, have him monologue about his ammo served for anything beyond showing how much of badass Jason is? Ok, Jason blows off both the Regime and the Insurgency, what now then? It would've been a much better resolution to have him recruit anyone willing to make a difference and form the Injustice version of the Outlaws.


Well, honestly, it's probably the kind of interpretation that will end up making it to the mainstream first. He's an ex-Robin with guns. and "wanting to make a difference and forming the Injustice version of the Outlaws" would seem a bit redundant in a Batman's already rebuilding the Justice League... Unless Jason's bought into Bruce's leadership, and then you kind of *do* lose a bit of the punch for the character if you don't portray _how_ that comes about. Netherealm's Jason could easily fit into Bruce's League; the Bat is employing Harley Quinn, after all.

I mean, I'd love to see Jason (and Dick, and Tim...) make some kind of main storyline appearance in the next game, and I'd love to see him and Bruce bury the hatchet there. But the simple fact remains that "Dead Robin Returns With Guns" is a premise that demands some genuine antagonism between father and son at the start at least. Jason's not Nightwing, and you have to establish that first. Him seeing Bruce and Clark's dispute as missing the trees for the forest fits perfectly into using his premise well in introducing him while still making him heroic.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The problem  is that with Dick dead and Damian filling the antagonistic role, making Jason also antagonist to Bruce is that it makes him redundant in the Injustice universe. 

That said, it bugs me the most that a lot of the intros hinted to Jason and Bruce working together to some degree.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Red Hood's ladder ending


I frigging love it!

----------


## darkseidpwns

So in other words Morrison's Jason minus the goofy red pill helmet.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So in other words Morrison's Jason minus the goofy red pill helmet.


I don't know where you get that. If anything he's more like Winnick's URTH Jason.

----------


## godisawesome

Winnick's Jason without the "control crime by taking it over aspect." Which I'm fine with. Again, I prefer a Jason who's still not exactly buried the hatchet with Bruce until some major character work happens, but him literally just saying "I'm going to do what you do all the time, but I'm going to remove threats while doing so" works. To be clear, I figure this means he's still more merciful and controlled than, say, the Punisher; he'll let you go to jail or turn yourself in.

----------


## Aioros22

Like a good deal of father-son dinamics, it`s a pull push relationship and the hatchet will never be truly buried but I like that they are mature about it these days or like you said, more "in control". Now, I haven`t seen the ending yet because I want to play it but from some reactions it seems to get a nice response and a callout to the "edgy" thing, which again, I don`t mind one bit. Something more Winnick is good depending the situation but in terms of adressing the sheer level of edge and role: a game is a game. It`s a finite product, you play it and you keep it but it`s done. Whatever ending you get that`s the status quo forever because it doesn`t go beyond that. You have more leeway to whatever status you leave behind. 

An ongoing format offers more challenges. As far as I am concerned I`m not against Jason being edgy (since I believe current RATHO is quite psychologically dark to make a point) in terms of action but I like it to be something according to the threat in question. He`s not a loose cannon waiting for that one final bullet. As in, "in control". 

There will be exceptions of course but that`s par the norm for any character.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I don't know where you get that. If anything he's more like Winnick's URTH Jason.


You mean other than Scarlett and Pyg? that's far too specific, the characterization is also the same.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You mean other than Scarlett and Pyg? that's far too specific, the characterization is also the same.


Referencing arcs is nothing new to Injustice and I still don't see how can you think is the same characterization when Morrison's Jason was all about turning himself into a brand with little regard for innocents that got caught on his war on crime. The latter of which is blatantly disregarded by Injustice's Jason.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Referencing arcs is nothing new to Injustice and I still don't see how can you think is the same characterization when Morrison's Jason was all about turning himself into a brand with little regard for innocents that got caught on his war on crime. The latter of which is blatantly disregarded by Injustice's Jason.


And yet of all the arcs for Jason, THIS is what they went with.

It was a small teaser and in that they used a Morrison story, I'm not sure what we're going to accomplish by speculating about what Jason did or didn't do.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And yet of all the arcs for Jason, THIS is what they went with.
> 
> It was a small teaser and in that they used a Morrison story, I'm not sure what we're going to accomplish by speculating about what Jason did or didn't do.


Of course is the one they went with, is the only arc Jason has on his own that doesn't use characters already dead on the Injustice universe. The speculation is about the characterization you said literally _it was the same_  characterization as Morrison's, I'm pointing out the little bit of characterization Jason shows on Injustice is at odds with Morrison's take.

Anyways, have a tease for issue's 12 variant



https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...72903794257920



https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...82624953671680

----------


## Tony Stark

> I don't know where you get that. If anything he's more like Winnick's URTH Jason.


I agree. He's worried about innocent people and protecting them while Bats and Supes still battle.

----------


## Aioros22

As expected, the variants keep being my pecking order of choice. 

Hope to see Guillem`s interiors gracing these pages someday.

----------


## G-Potion

Intros with premier skins are good imo. Love the Countdown reference with Power Girl.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I gotta say I like more the voice they gave to Jason on the latinamerican dub

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## G-Potion

Don't understand a word but he does sound very good.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rac7d*

when was arkham knight added as an official alias of his
shoulndt nightwing be their too since he took on that idenity, actualy he did was batman too

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## Alycat

> when was arkham knight added as an official alias of his
> shoulndt nightwing be their too since he took on that idenity, actualy he did was batman too


We don't talk about those two things. In fact lets act like it never happened.

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## G-Potion

> when was arkham knight added as an official alias of his
> shoulndt nightwing be their too since he took on that idenity, actualy he did was batman too


Jason is basically everyone. Batman, Red Hood, Nightwing, Red Robin, Robin.

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## Aioros22

> when was arkham knight added as an official alias of his
> shoulndt nightwing be their too since he took on that idenity, actualy he did was batman too


Arkham Knight is an identity unique to him, that should take priority over being Nigthwing because DC had no idea what to do with Dick (and it lasted one bad storyline) and Batman, well, it`s unique as every single Robin who`s dressed as Batman. As in, it isn`t (and again one bad storyline). 

Robin is something else, it`s a legacy and Red Hood was a revival of a long lost identity whichmayhavebeentheJoker which was simbolically subverted on itself to fit Jason`s mold.

----------


## Aioros22

That "Bob" reference had me chuckle  :Wink: 



"Anti-hero status!"

Still, it`s not perfect. In this world I agree he wouldn`t find Kriptonians endering but Supergirl should be the exception to him for starters.

----------


## Aioros22

Haunted? Can`t bring yourself to sleep at night? Rent-A-Bat! Call now (555) - R-E-D - A-R-S-E

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Don't understand a word but he does sound very good.


Bonus bit of trivia, the dub actor of Jason in Injustice is the same actor that dubs Cavill's Superman in latin america.

----------


## Aioros22

I made this post in a DCAU related thread but curious to see if others wondered about this since I haven`t seen this little scene being debated much or at all.

Coincidentally enough, there`s a recurrent theory that Jason may already be Red Hood by the time BvsS happens and none of Batman`s dialogue would even be required to change in tone for it. There`s a scene which was also in the trailers of Bruce unwrapping a newspaper`s page about the fall of Wayne`s Tower where it`s written in red "You let your family die". It`s Present tense and the tone can easily read in more than one context. 






Most naturally assume is Joker mocking Batman, which is the logical first reaction especially with the death of his partner being revisited by the older Bruce but it could equally mean someone keeping an eye on matters and challenging Bruce to take some sort of...offense on the current stakes. A very Red Hood Batman push-pull dinamic if you will.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

That was Luthor. He says so much when he explains his plan to Superman.

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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

> That was Luthor. He says so much when he explains his plan to Superman.


He shouts those words at the rooftop yeah. But thing is Lex`s plan is just flat and it doesn`t exactly work wth the plot-holes. His dramaticallity aimed at every singl thread, badly placed or not, sounds way too convenient. He knows everything including that Robin died, Batman and Harley killed him and Bat/Bruce would react emotionally to something that didn`t required to be pushed considering the Parliment scene where it was staged to look like Superman killed everyone?

It looked forced but it does glint with the message being presented in a way that gave Bruce a certain reaction for other obvious reasons.

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## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He shouts those words at the rooftop yeah. But thing is Lex`s plan is just flat and it doesn`t exactly work wth the plot-holes. His dramaticallity aimed at every singl thread, badly placed or not, sounds way too convenient. He knows everything including that Robin died, Batman and Harley killed him and Bat/Bruce would react emotionally to something that didn`t required to be pushed considering the Parliment scene where it was staged to look like Superman killed everyone?
> 
> It looked forced but it does glint with the message being presented in a way that gave Bruce a certain reaction for other obvious reasons.


You're mixing things up. The message on the uniform was Joker's.

Luthor only kept pressing Bruce's buttons via the notes and the Capitol bombing. He knew Bruce was Batman for quite a bit and from there it was relatively simple for a manipulator like Luthor to use Bruce's traumas on his favor.

His plan was tightly thought and not anymore implausible than Joker's plan in the Dark Knight.

----------


## kaimaciel

Now that I’ve pitted Jason against everyone in Injustice 2 and listened to their dialogue, I’ve found very interesting plot points. Whether the Injustice comics are going to follow them or ignore them completely to create a brand new story, this is what we have about Jason Todd (aka Red Hood) in the Injustice universe. Too bad most of dialogue was pre-recorded, though. Fanfiction writers, feel free to use this information  :Wink: 

- Jason is a neutral character but leans towards Batman’s side. He tells Dinah that they’re on the same team, but he also states that he goes his own way and that he is his own boss. 
- He states numerous times that he hates the regime (_You’ve gone far enough Superman. There’s wrong and then there’s worse. You still represent the regime? I’m not with the regime_). 
- Even though he agrees that some criminals need to die, he doesn’t want to kill all of them. (_Even I have limits. There’s far and then there’s too far. I’m not out to kill every criminal._)
- It’s implied that he used to be on Superman’s side but betrayed them, as seen with Wonder Woman’s dialogue (_You’re a traitor and a crimina_l.) and Cyborg (_Turned on us fast enough_.)
- Strained relationship with Batman. Bruce asks if he plans to disappoint him again, that he’s too reckless and claims that he’s blind to what he became, Jason tells him that he’s the hero Gotham deserves and that Bruce should step aside.
- It is hinted that Bruce wants him to go to his side, as Dinah chastises him for being a jerk to Bruce and Vixen tells him that he would have welcomed Jason back with open arms. Jason doesn’t believe them.
- He doesn’t like Kryptonians, probably because of Superman’s tyrannical reign, he doesn’t trust people with so much power. He tells both Supergirl and Power Girl that there aren’t good Kryptonians.
- Batman trusts him enough to train both Blue Beetle and Firestorm. 
- He’s on bad terms with Damian and warns him that he used to think like him.
- It is hinted that he’s looking for redemption from his dialogue with Darkseid (_Redemption is hard to find for killers like you_.)
- He considers himself as someone with nothing to lose. 
- Jason is young. His age was not confirmed, but Superman calls him a kid (same dialogue he uses with Beetle and Firestorm who are both 18 years old), Black Adam calls him a child. Considering his high pitched voice, it is probable that he’s around Damian’s age biologically (who is around 18/19 years old).
- Everyone knows that he was the second Robin.
- He’s a self-proclaimed anti-hero and Outlaw. (Outlaws can be heroes too!)
- He actually says _“You only live twice!”._
- Mentions that he was dead a lot (_I’m a dead man walking. Been dead, done that_.)
- Harley thinks he’s cute.
- Catwoman doesn’t seem to like him, she tells him that she always knew he was trouble and calls him a murderer. Jason doesn’t resent her, but he actually sounds sad when he asks her to show him what made her impress Bruce so much (probably longing for Bruce’s approval too, since both he and Selina walk the gray line but Selina got to stay by Batman’s side).
- Even though Jason claims to work by himself, when he faces a villain he says that he’s going to bring their head to Batman.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

All of that is part of why I was so underwhelmed by his ladder ending. The interactions hint to a more rounded and nuanced take on Jason and then the ending defaults him to his angsty badass phase.

----------


## G-Potion

> Now that I’ve pitted Jason against everyone in Injustice 2 and listened to their dialogue, I’ve found very interesting plot points. Whether the Injustice comics are going to follow them or ignore them completely to create a brand new story, this is what we have about Jason Todd (aka Red Hood) in the Injustice universe. Too bad most of dialogue was pre-recorded, though. Fanfiction writers, feel free to use this information 
> 
> - Jason is a neutral character but leans towards Batman’s side. He tells Dinah that they’re on the same team, but he also states that he goes his own way and that he is his own boss. 
> - He states numerous times that he hates the regime (_You’ve gone far enough Superman. There’s wrong and then there’s worse. You still represent the regime? I’m not with the regime_). 
> - Even though he agrees that some criminals need to die, he doesn’t want to kill all of them. (_Even I have limits. There’s far and then there’s too far. I’m not out to kill every criminal._)
> - It’s implied that he used to be on Superman’s side but betrayed them, as seen with Wonder Woman’s dialogue (_You’re a traitor and a crimina_l.) and Cyborg (_Turned on us fast enough_.)
> - Strained relationship with Batman. Bruce asks if he plans to disappoint him again, that he’s too reckless and claims that he’s blind to what he became, Jason tells him that he’s the hero Gotham deserves and that Bruce should step aside.
> - It is hinted that Bruce wants him to go to his side, as Dinah chastises him for being a jerk to Bruce and Vixen tells him that he would have welcomed Jason back with open arms. Jason doesn’t believe them.
> - He doesn’t like Kryptonians, probably because of Superman’s tyrannical reign, he doesn’t trust people with so much power. He tells both Supergirl and Power Girl that there aren’t good Kryptonians.
> ...


Thanks for getting all the points in one place. Was into the idea of Jason betraying the Regime since the first time I heard the intro with WW. I missed Cyborg's "Turned on us fast enough" however. Nice to have that plot point reinforced.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah the repeated dialogue really put a damper on things thanks to what I assume was the voice actor strike. His character position in the roster is pretty great though. Right in the middle.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah the repeated dialogue really put a damper on things thanks to what I assume was the voice actor strike. His character position in the roster is pretty great though. Right in the middle.


Is that something unique to his voice work or other characters in the game as well? 

I find the comments about this aspect curous because it`s a fighting game and I`m used to characters having repeated lines.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is that something unique to his voice work or other characters in the game as well? 
> 
> I find the comments about this aspect curious because it`s a fighting game and I`m used to characters having repeated lines.


The issue is that the base characters have specific lines to each other for both intros and clashes. But for Jason they only use generic lines with no real acknowledgement of him. Ironically, the premium skins are the only ones that have specific lines for Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> Is that something unique to his voice work or other characters in the game as well? 
> 
> I find the comments about this aspect curous because it`s a fighting game and I`m used to characters having repeated lines.


Jason has pretty specific lines to certain people while most don't have any for him outside of premium skins. It seems unpolished and disappointing, especially concerning his connections to Joker, Batman, and Robin.

----------


## Aahz

Will these  guys ever get that Jason isn't just a maskman?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Will these  guys ever get that Jason isn't just a maskman?


The moment they brought Tynion's run as one of Jason's greatest achievements, it made clear to me those guys don't know what are they talking about and I closed the video.

----------


## adrikito

> 


good image

----------


## G-Potion

> Will these  guys ever get that Jason isn't just a maskman?


Was thinking of sharing this, but it's just too lame.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aahz

> The moment they brought Tynion's run as one of Jason's greatest achievements, it made clear to me those guys don't know what are they talking about and I closed the video.


That was at least one of Jasons most impressive fights and Ras is at least one of the biggest Batman villains, in case of Dick on the other they bring Shrike as an example  :Stick Out Tongue: , and btw. Dick also used guns to take down dangerous oponents like Cheshire (Old Friends, New Enemies) and Paragon (in Grayson).

What would in your opinion be Jasons most impressive fight?

----------


## FlyingHero

He did some impressive stuff in the new52 run with the outlaws. That series really showcased his skills as a fighter, making him use large variety of weapons like swors, magic swords instead of just pew pew. He beat foes like Ra's ghul and Lady Shiva easily while Nightwing got stomped by her. 

I'm guessing Nightwing wins? I never understood these versus things. Red Hood is Nightwing with a gun or two. If that doesn't mean defeat then I don't know what is. Plot armor shouldn't be a play here.

----------


## Alycat

Comic book power levels are dumb and always situational. Nightwing has no problem with guns so that shouldn't even matter. It comes down to context and whoever is writing the fight. The A beat B so they should beat C stuff doesn't apply.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That was at least one of Jasons most impressive fights and Ras is at least one of the biggest Batman villains, in case of Dick on the other they bring Shrike as an example , and btw. Dick also used guns to take down dangerous oponents like Cheshire (Old Friends, New Enemies) and Paragon (in Grayson).


Thing is, the Ra's fight wasn't an earned victory. Tynion make Jason pull powers out of his ass and wrote everyone else as incompetent so his narrative would fit. There was no struggle, no hard work, not a show of Jason's skills. Just an "I win button"




> What would in your opinion be Jasons most impressive fight?


There are plenty to pick now:

-Rescuing Roy from Qurac
-The fight against the reanimated All Caste monks
-Facing Suzie Su in China if you want to highlight Jason's marksmanship and cunning
-The fight against the Untitled in Colorado
-Jason taking down a GCPD SWAT squad in a towel
-Fighting Tim during DOTF
-His fight against the Iron Rule in the Nethers
-His final attack on Joker's Daughter and the Iron Rule.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like the All-Blades retconned into feeding from Jason's soul and quickly fizzling out in last issue will serve a future plot point. Here's what a source said:

*spoilers:*
all I know is atm some old characters are coming back and Jason’s soul is in a very fragile state atm…who will be there to help him?
*end of spoilers*

*spoilers:*
Trust me…there’s a lot on Jason’s soul….who will show (is more than just Jason’s past, but his future too, but is more seen as a character related to Dick)
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aahz

> Comic book power levels are dumb and always situational. Nightwing has no problem with guns so that shouldn't even matter. It comes down to context and whoever is writing the fight. The A beat B so they should beat C stuff doesn't apply.


What annoys me more is that video (thats is from an official DC chanel) just contains wrong information, or ar least very poor research.

Jason is a highly trained assassin and martial artist and also quite a good acrobat, he is not like Deashot how is really primarily an maskman. And Dick is on the other hand also quite good with guns (see the paragon fight for example) even if doesn't carry one as Nightwing (but he did das police officer and Spyral agent) and didn't use them that often.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Looks like the All-Blades retconned into feeding from Jason's soul and quickly fizzling out in last issue will serve a future plot point. Here's what a source said:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> all I know is atm some old characters are coming back and Jason’s soul is in a very fragile state atm…who will be there to help him?
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Trust me…there’s a lot on Jason’s soul….who will show (is more than just Jason’s past, but his future too, but is more seen as a character related to Dick)
> *end of spoilers*


Oh! This is intriguing. I wish they would involve the family in this, but I guess it will remain as something between the Outlaws and Jason alone. Could it have something to do with what happens with Circe and Ra's in the Trinity book?

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh! This is intriguing. I wish they would involve the family in this, but I guess it will remain as something between the Outlaws and Jason alone. Could it have something to do with what happens with Circe and Ra's in the Trinity book?


Well the poster also said hopefully the Batman event (likely The Wedding?) won't interfere much with Lobdell's plan. So I'm hoping the family stays away from this. The Bat office is rarely nice to Jason anyway.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s a better strategy to keep Jason more self contained in the earlier stages of Rebirth. I like him with the others but New52 rushed it. It should be a bigger thing when he does show up.

----------


## Aioros22

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

https://ninalinovna.tumblr.com/


https://www.tumblr.com/search/red+hood+jason+todd

----------


## Aioros22

Happy Father`s Day, kid

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.cbr.com/too-hood-to-be-tr...B-P&view=lista

At least it acknowledged (somewhat) recent developments for Jason.

----------


## Tony Stark

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


This is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Aioros22

Tim a rebel is funny  :Wink:  but the others are spot on

----------


## Aioros22

> What would in your opinion be Jasons most impressive fight?


In terms of both curriculum and comic coreograhy: Cass (Eternal), Batman (all the times), Nigtwing (Outsiders), Tim (all the times), Artemis, Deathstroke and Ras are some who come to mind.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #14
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by JOE BENNETT
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Bizarro Reborn” part one! Bizarro is back and he’s better than ever! He’s stronger, he’s faster and now he’s a genius! As if that weren’t enough to deal with, things only get more complicated when the Outlaws find themselves in the crosshairs of the one and only Batwoman, who will stop at nothing to take down the infamous Red Hood!
> On sale SEPTEMBER 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> ...



I like Bennet's art but I hope that is just Soy taking another brief break.

----------


## Aioros22

I really like both covers. 

a) Bizarro coming back strong and smarter and just all around better after dying is a clear shotout to Superman`s character arc post return when he end up losing control over his powers because they kept growing. Not sure if it will get there but regardless it also means the child of the family is also growing up  :Wink: 

b) The solicit referencing Batwoman is interesting. Up until Rebirth she seemed to be okay-ish (if at distance) with Jason but it`s clear Jason`s mission within the criminal underground managed to wave some suspicions of some members. Remains to be seen why wouldn`t Batman and Alfred let everyone know it`s all under control when he had first witness evidence that Jason didn`t go down the spiral again unless they decided it`s best this way. 

If we go with other books Dick would be on it too (Nigthwing) but the Annual with be more conclusive on it. King`s diner is pretty much self contained but should indicate that the inner circle (Batman+daboyz) is aware of it. Is Tec becoming the odball where Batwoman and co seemed to be distant with current affairs outside that circle? 

c) Well, a no brainer but I like how Jason is prominent in both the covers or solicits.

----------


## Caivu

> b) The solicit referencing Batwoman is interesting. Up until Rebirth she seemed to be okay-ish (if at distance) with Jason but it`s clear Jason`s mission within the criminal underground managed to wave some suspicions of some members. Remains to be seen why wouldn`t Batman and Alfred let everyone know it`s all under control when he had first witness evidence that Jason didn`t go down the spiral again unless they decided it`s best this way.


Definitely. I'm really interested to know why she's the one who ends up going after him, especially since she might guest for more than one issue. Right now, it sounds pretty fun.

----------


## Alycat

Sounds like a good September for Jason. Aww look at Bruce holding his arm on the cover.

----------


## Pohzee

I just read Red Hood and the Outlaws: Rebirth the other day, and it struck me as odd how similar it felt to Nightwing: Rebirth, both in terms of basic plot and writing style. It was a very odd read for me and left me with mixed feelings.

----------


## Aioros22

It might also be that the Batwoman business is something Jason has to do within the arc for her to go after him. Maybe it was to save Bizarro since Luthor will be involved and we all know his help _never_ comes cheap. It has to be something in those lines, something especific because not only is the inner circle _seemingly_ aware of Jason`s current agenda you have like two of the most proeminent Trinity in the DCU going at lenghts to save them. 

I mean, not that they wouldn`t in general terms but it seems clear there`s a level of caring there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What I really want to know is where is the promised Outlaws vs Outlaws fight

----------


## Aioros22

> I just read Red Hood and the Outlaws: Rebirth the other day, and it struck me as odd how similar it felt to Nightwing: Rebirth, both in terms of basic plot and writing style. It was a very odd read for me and left me with mixed feelings.


How so if I may ask?

----------


## Pohzee

> How so if I may ask?


On the surface level, I found it funny that both were undercover members of criminal organizations actively trying to undermine their efforts. That's not really an issue, but I thought that it was interesting. 

I also found the writing to be very similar. Lobdell's voice for Jason was very similar Seeley's voice for Nightwing, at least their internal monologuing. It felt like I was reading Nightwing-as-Red Hood, but maybe that's because that's the series I'm used to. In general, Lobdell's writing reminded me a lot of Seeley's. His stories, ideas, and character work were well-thought out and plotted, but I found that his dialogue was a bit wonky in a slightly over-expository, slightly overly-humorous way that doesn't always land the right way. Just like Seeley.

So I kind of felt like I was reading a Nightwing comic, even though Lobdell incorporated Jason's history into the story very well.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> What I really want to know is where is the promised Outlaws vs Outlaws fight


Roy vs bizarro and artemis vs starfire?

----------


## Caivu

> It might also be that the Batwoman business is something Jason has to do within the arc for her to go after him. Maybe it was to save Bizarro since Luthor will be involved and we all know his help _never_ comes cheap. It has to be something in those lines, something especific because not only is the inner circle _seemingly_ aware of Jason`s current agenda you have like two of the most proeminent Trinity in the DCU going at lenghts to save them. 
> 
> I mean, not that they wouldn`t in general terms but it seems clear there`s a level of caring there.


I guess that works, since she probably wouldn't know what he's really up to. I've joked before about them working together again after the Brazil stuff in Batman Eternal, so if that's what this ends up being after the initial violence... I'm all for it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looks like the All-Blades retconned into feeding from Jason's soul and quickly fizzling out in last issue will serve a future plot point. Here's what a source said:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> all I know is atm some old characters are coming back and Jasons soul is in a very fragile state atmwho will be there to help him?
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Trust metheres a lot on Jasons soul.who will show (is more than just Jasons past, but his future too, but is more seen as a character related to Dick)
> *end of spoilers*


From the same source, regarding the soul plot:

*spoilers:*
One of the crossover events
*end of spoilers*

*spoilers:*
Theres a reason why Jason and Wonder Woman will be working together in the future titles .
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Alycat

> From the same source, regarding the soul plot:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> One of the crossover events
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> *spoilers:*
> There’s a reason why Jason and Wonder Woman will be working together in the future titles .
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Jason better not be Wonder Woman's brother. That would be the worst way to go with that. The Batfam doesnt need anymore super special awesome charcters. Also the person who usually has more of a relation to Dick: Raven maybe? I don't know anyone else. I have a bad feeling about all of this so hopefully its wrong
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Making Jason Diana's brother would be really, _really_ dumb since it would mean Jason is centuries (if not millennia) old.

And for those leaks, I'd take them with a grain of salt. The use admitted a while back that his source was the owner of a comic book shop and retailers never get that much info in advance. And even then, is not unusual for the info they do get, ends being inaccurate.

----------


## RedBird

> From the same source, regarding the soul plot:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> One of the crossover events
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> *spoilers:*
> There’s a reason why Jason and Wonder Woman will be working together in the future titles .
> *end of spoilers*


I....don't know how to feel about this. If it is true then...

*spoilers:*
Does that mean that Jason is the long lost brother and only boy born among the amazons? I mean I guess it would sort of explain how the hell he came back to life? Or rather I'm sure they could make up a special reason about having immortal powers or whatever. I just....yeah that is weird. Then again thats just ONE guess. Maybe the whole thing with wonder woman would mean his soul was resurrected by a Greek God or something, rather than the brother plot twist.
*end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
"a character related to Dick". If its not Raven, could it be Deadman? I think he interacted with Dick during a certain circus arc didn't he?
I mean I know there was a comic where it showed him trying to save Jason in the warehouse and being pained that he couldn't. shrug
*end of spoilers*


EDIT: No no, you know what never mind. The more I'm thinking about it, the more ridiculous it sounds. Even if we ignore the plot holes in such a theory, I don't think Jason is that HUGE of a character or icon to warrant this kind of plot twist or connection to such a large DC figure. (besides Batman). 

I don't think he's _that_ special.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Nah, I think DC might tease it though. However if it does happen I'll be very interested, not in the actual content because that's likely to be bad but in the thought process and intention behind this move.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I guess I'm the odd man out here then because I think it could be an interesting direction if it were to actually happen and IF it was handled well.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Having said that though I think it's far more likely that the Jason who is the brother of Diana is Jason Blood, host of the Demon Etrigan. It just makes more sense to me that a man who has been alive for centuries (even if it was due to his connection to the aforementioned demon) would be her brother rather than Jason Todd.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Maybe its Jason Bourne?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Maybe its Jason Bourne?


*Chuckle* Could be Jason Voorhees.

----------


## G-Potion

> I guess I'm the odd man out here then because I think it could be an interesting direction if it were to actually happen and IF it was handled well.  Having said that though I think it's far more likely that the Jason who is the brother of Diana is Jason Blood, host of the Demon Etrigan. It just makes more sense to me that a man who has been alive for centuries (even if it was due to his connection to the aforementioned demon) would be her brother rather than Jason Todd.


I feel the same. I'm all for trying new things and expanding Jason's background. If the execution is good then it's good, I don't care if it's a direction that a Bat character shouldn't take nor whether the character is high profile enough for it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't think he's _that_ special.


Warning for direct attack on our lord and savior the Red Hood  :Big Grin: 

I wouldn`t mind that twist if it wasn`t for a couple tibits. One, it would create a mess on his return story, which is pretty great on its own: he either comes back from the Lazarus Pit or is Joker tortures him for months before he kills him. Either have the makings of a greek tragedy tapestry with all the right engredients with emotional bits, drama, action, psychological horror and so on.

Two, Wonder Woman`s comic  timeline, origins, retcons, whatever is currently a gigantic mess. In order to erase a good deal of Azzarelo`s setting they made a salad wich hasn`t been compeeling narrative, slow paced as fvck (pardon the french but is how I feel) with very little happening between issues. Diana herself loses little in translation but the world building or the lack of it suffer alot. Donna has been a mess. Artemis is the one great thing out of it and is handled elsewhere. The best Wonder Woman material is not currently being published on the main title.

Three, the twin brother plot was a thrownout that didn`t have much impact by the writer who created it. This is terribly (as so far) akin to the three Jokers subplot. Incidently, both plots seemingly being pushed as important events and I get the feeling neither will pave in or please many people. 

I`m all for good narrative that helps the characters I am invested in but these sort of plots are flat out weird.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I feel the same. I'm all for trying new things and expanding Jason's background. If the execution is good then it's good, I don't care if it's a direction that a Bat character shouldn't take nor whether the character is high profile enough for it.


I'm all for them expanding Jay's background as well and his being immortal would be a far better explanation for his mysterious resurrection then that nonsense with Superboy Prime and his punch was. Having said that though I don't think it's going to happen that way and frankly I would prefer it if they left the details of his resurrection a mystery.

----------


## Alycat

I care because it sounds like the route a bad shonen would take. The underdog or guy from the streets never can stay that way for some reason. They have to have a super special bloodline or eyes that made them that way and the intent of the character gets lost in nonsense. I like people sometimes because of what they lacked and had to do themselves. Not everyone or everything needs to be special or connected. I still hate the Court of Owls stuff they did with Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm all for them expanding Jay's background as well and his being immortal would be a far better explanation for his mysterious resurrection then that nonsense with Superboy Prime and his punch was. Having said that though I don't think it's going to happen that way and frankly I would prefer it if they left the details of his resurrection a mystery.


It's interesting to think bout. But yeah, very little chance it will happen. The source also said this Jason was gonna be a new character, since Rebirth started.

I also prefer to keep the resurrection a mystery.

----------


## G-Potion

> Warning for direct attack on our lord and savior the Red Hood 
> 
> I wouldn`t mind that twist if it wasn`t for a couple tibits. One, it would create a mess on his return story, which is pretty great on its own: he either comes back from the Lazarus Pit or is Joker tortures him for months before he kills him. Either have the makings of a greek tragedy tapestry with all the right engredients with emotional bits, drama, action, psychological horror and so on.
> 
> Two, Wonder Woman`s comic  timeline, origins, retcons, whatever is currently a gigantic mess. In order to erase a good deal of Azzarelo`s setting they made a salad wich hasn`t been compeeling narrative, slow paced as fvck (pardon the french but is how I feel) with very little happening between issues. Diana herself loses little in translation but the world building or the lack of it suffer alot. Donna has been a mess. Artemis is the one great thing out of it and is handled elsewhere. The best Wonder Woman material is not currently being published on the main title.
> 
> Three, the twin brother plot was a thrownout that didn`t have much impact by the writer who created it. This is terribly (as so far) akin to the three Jokers subplot. Incidently, both plots seemingly being pushed as important events and I get the feeling neither will pave in or please many people. 
> 
> I`m all for good narrative that helps the characters I am invested in but these sort of plots are flat out weird.


Of course, if his origin, death and resurrection story isn't intact then the twist is not worth it.

How is WW at the moment? Been a while since I last read her book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I guess I'm the odd man out here then because I think it could be an interesting direction if it were to actually happen and IF it was handled well.  Having said that though I think it's far more likely that the Jason who is the brother of Diana is Jason Blood, host of the Demon Etrigan. It just makes more sense to me that a man who has been alive for centuries (even if it was due to his connection to the aforementioned demon) would be her brother rather than Jason Todd.


More likely it will be a completely new character based on the Argonauts' Jason.

And really, making Jason a demi god what would achieve? One of the biggest draws of Jason are his humble origins and the fact he's too stubborn to know when to give up. Making him a special snowflake would take away all of that and would conflict greatly with the fact Jason died (are you telling me a crowbar and TNT are enough to kill a demi god?) to not mention that they tried already making Jason a super badass chosen one and is one of the worst stories Jason has ever been.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> More likely it will be a completely new character based on the Argonauts' Jason.
> 
> And really, making Jason a demi god what would achieve? One of the biggest draws of Jason are his humble origins and the fact he's too stubborn to know when to give up. Making him a special snowflake would take away all of that and would conflict greatly with the fact Jason died (are you telling me a crowbar and TNT are enough to kill a demi god?) to not mention that they tried already making Jason a super badass chosen one and is one of the worst stories Jason has ever been.


Very likely so all this is just hypothetical. 

Still I wouldn't find this to be another case of Jason being a "Super Badass Chosen One" or at least I wouldn't depending on how it was handled. It could go that route of course but I think a writer who was deft and nuanced about it could do something different with the idea and make more than just another Chosen One trope. Just keep people like Tynion and Snyder away from it and it could work out just fine. Also it would depend on the crowbar and TNN. Demigods are not gods so they can be severely hurt especially if the weapon used was designed to do so. All that would need to be done is a retcon to make the crowbar one such weapon and the TNT something that can effect a demigod. It's not as difficult as your making it out to be and it wouldn't have to change that part of his history.

----------


## Alycat

> Very likely so all this is just hypothetical. 
> 
> Still I wouldn't find this to be another case of Jason being a "Super Badass Chosen One" or at least I wouldn't depending on how it was handled. It could go that route of course but I think a writer who was deft and nuanced about it could do something different with the idea and make more than just another Chosen One trope. Just keep people like Tynion and Snyder away from it and it could work out just fine. Also it would depend on the crowbar and TNN. Demigods are not gods so they can be severely hurt especially if the weapon used was designed to do so. All that would need to be done is a retcon to make the crowbar one such weapon and the TNT something that can effect a demigod. It's not as difficult as your making it out to be and it wouldn't have to change that part of his history.


How does it not make him a super special chosen badass? No matter How it's handled it's still character who did everything through hard work or his own merits finds out he's actually a Demi God! Isn't that something? Except it's not. I don't expect it to handled that well because it rarely is unless it's like Damian learning he's not all that special or awesome.  But seriously, there is already Cass, fan favorite Harper Row, Duke, Damian's origins, Dicks thin connection with the Owls. How special does everyonE need to be?

----------


## G-Potion

> How does it not make him a super special chosen badass? No matter How it's handled it's still character who did everything through hard work or his own merits finds out he's actually a Demi God! Isn't that something? Except it's not. I don't expect it to handled that well because it rarely is unless it's like Damian learning he's not all that special or awesome.  But seriously, there is already Cass, fan favorite Harper Row, Duke, Damian's origins, Dicks thin connection with the Owls. How special does everyonE need to be?


How about Jason as a cursed Amazon without any Amazon/Demigod perks? Basically human with a tiny bit affinity with magic that allows things like resurrection and learning the All-Caste way. Another blow to the guy's self-esteem.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> How does it not make him a super special chosen badass? No matter How it's handled it's still character who did everything through hard work or his own merits finds out he's actually a Demi God! Isn't that something? Except it's not. I don't expect it to handled that well because it rarely is unless it's like Damian learning he's not all that special or awesome.  But seriously, there is already Cass, fan favorite Harper Row, Duke, Damian's origins, Dicks thin connection with the Owls. How special does everyonE need to be?


I guess we see things differently on this issue but it is important to fans that each character be DIFFERENT from the others. I've heard plenty of complaints about how the Robins are all to similar so I could see why they would want to do something to make each one "special" in their own way. I also have to ask you how is suddenly finding out you are a demigod AFTER you've already done things through your own merit and earned skills on your own makes someone SUDDENLY a "super special chosen one" and in all honesty how is it any different from say Jason's training with the All Caste? I do think that the right writer could do something with this idea that has absolutely nothing to do with Jason being a chosen one at all although I'm not certain that DC currently has anyone on staff that can manage it. In any case this is all hypothetical anyway since it's not going to end up being that Jason Todd is the one they are talking about. I imagine its someone else entirely, maybe even someone new.

----------


## Aioros22

This talk is all is about 6 degrees of a given subject. He already is. They all are. They all do things that the regular joe in comics makes believe they aren`t normal people. Being a demi god brings more power but listen, while Heracles was the top dog Odisseus was already doing things beyond the mere human despite not being demi anything. 

Jason survived and took on a mystical training that Ducra mentioned nobody in a century (or more?) managed to do. This isn`t even the Tynion run we`re talking about here, it`s from the main writer of the character these past six years. Encyclopedias already mentioned that the Lazarus Pit may have given him some raw abilities we don`t know of. 

I get what Alycat is saying, DC bumping Jason a demi god would *up* his status....but mostly in terms of power level debates, it doesn`t automatically translate in bringing a better narrative or writting or making him a bigger more popular icon he currently is. You could make that case with direct connections with two major franchises, yes but like with everything it would depend on execution. Execution for example shows pretty well how Heracles being the demi god he is was essential to his character, his story, his many conection with other heroes and adventures and absolutely fits with the idea behind him: the basic novel of the Hero`s journey.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This talk is all is about 6 degrees of a given subject. He already is. They all are. They all do things that the regular joe in comics makes believe they aren`t normal people. Being a demi god brings more power but listen, while Heracles was the top dog Odisseus was already doing things beyond the mere human despite not being demi anything. 
> 
> Jason survived and took on a mystical training that Ducra mentioned nobody in a century (or more?) managed to do. This isn`t even the Tynion run we`re talking about here, it`s from the main writer of the character these past six years. Encyclopedias already mentioned that the Lazarus Pit may have given him some raw abilities we don`t know of. 
> 
> I get what Alycat is saying, DC bumping Jason a demi god would *up* his status....but mostly in terms of power level debates, it doesn`t automatically translate in bringing a better narrative or writting or making him a bigger more popular icon he currently is. You could make that case with direct connections with two major franchises, yes but like with everything it would depend on execution. Execution for example shows pretty well how Heracles being the demi god he is was essential to his character, his story, his many conection with other heroes and adventures and absolutely fits with the idea behind him: the basic novel of the Hero`s journey.


Exactly my point. Its all in the execution of the story. Just because Tynion basically bludgeoned the "Chose One" trope to death in his abysmal run it doesn't follow that someone else couldn't use it to tell a decent story after that point. I can understand feeling burned because of how that was handled but come on. Also how much of the Diana being related directly to the gods is even still in play these days? I've heard plenty of people grumbling that Azz's run has been kicked to the curb and I've not been keeping up with WW of late so I don't really know. If Jason was related to her who says he has to be a demigod at all.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Exactly my point. Its all in the execution of the story. Just because Tynion basically bludgeoned the "Chose One" trope to death in his abysmal run it doesn't follow that someone else couldn't use it to tell a decent story after that point. I can understand feeling burned because of how that was handled but come on. Also how much of the Diana being related directly to the gods is even still in play these days? I've heard plenty of people grumbling that Azz's run has been kicked to the curb and I've not been keeping up with WW of late so I don't really know. If Jason was related to her who says he has to be a demigod at all.


By editorial mandate, the only thing Rucka couldn't retcon was the fact Diana was the daughter Hyppolita and Zeus and according to Darkseid War the Jason in question would be the Fraternal Twin of Diana.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> By editorial mandate, the only thing Rucka couldn't retcon was the fact Diana was the daughter Hyppolita and Zeus and according to Darkseid War the Jason in question would be the Fraternal Twin of Diana.


Thanks for the info Dark. I wasn't sure if that aspect was still in play or not.

----------


## RedBird

> Warning for direct attack on our lord and savior the Red Hood


Oh, don't get me wrong, Jason is very special to me.  :Big Grin:  I just don't think he is that special to DC that they would pull off a stunt like this, I don't think he is that high in priority, at least in their eyes. And I agree with JasonTodd428 and Dark_Tzitzimine, if we were talking about a preexisting Jason it would most likely be Jason Blood, or considering this is Greek mythos DC is probably gonna recreate a Jason and the Argonauts story for the character. Like I said before, it would explain why Jason was easily resurrected, why he can wield magic now, why he survived the 'cleansing' in rhato v1, BUT on Dianas side of things, I don't see how this revelation would benefit her story yknow? Besides bringing weirder relations between her and Bruce 


If we are still humoring this idea though, and if people are skeptical about having Jason be a literal Demi God, what if instead of being the original Jason of Themyscira, Jason Todd just harbors the soul of this brother of Diana. Perhaps the amazon Jason had been deprived of a physical form (he was to be hidden from the gods themselves) You could have some mumbo jumbo about the two souls converging and how that enabled a mortal to be resurrected and wield magic...etc. Plus we do have that trinity cover in September with Jason, maybe something goes wrong and Constantine's confused cause "Guys I'm pretty sure I exorcised the bloody demon out of him but theres something else still in here". :P

----------


## G-Potion

> Plus we do have that trinity cover in September with Jason, maybe something goes wrong and Constantine's confused cause "Guys I'm pretty sure I exorcised the bloody demon out of him but theres something else still in here". :P


I think this will certainly happen. Either something or the lack of something is in there.

----------


## RedBird

> or the lack of something is in there.


Oh dear, how sad. 

But, that would be kinda hilarious to see, just because I'll bet Bruce blames Constantine as soon as they find out theres no soul in there. 

Bruce: "You overdid it!"

Constantine: "It was like that when I got here!"

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh dear, how sad. 
> 
> But, that would be kinda hilarious to see, just because I'll bet Bruce blames Constantine as soon as they find out theres no soul in there. 
> 
> Bruce: "You overdid it!"
> 
> Constantine: "It was like that when I got here!"


Wasn't my intention. It's very funny when you put it that way though.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

We never found out how he came back this time around did we? I'm assuming no Super punching was involved but I'm not sure if I want to keep it a mystery or not.

----------


## pansy

The address discussed here and great ... now I doubt the real run is better than all the imagination.

----------


## Aioros22

> We never found out how he came back this time around did we? I'm assuming no Super punching was involved but I'm not sure if I want to keep it a mystery or not.


Constantine: Bloody hell, can`t find out how he came back. Not only is a part of his soul ripped the sod off.."

Bruce: *wimps* Ma boy..

Constantine: Can I continue? Okay..not only is a part of his soul ripped the sod off but there`s memories messing. 

Batman: What did you do?!

Constantine: Easy there fella, it was like that when I opened it. It`s missing, like drives missing a freaking computer, aye?

Batman: Well, reboot it!

Costantine: Do I have Hardware Manager written over me forehead mate? I`m a freaking sorcerer not a hokus pofus magician!

----------


## RedBird

Constantine: "Wow bats, look at effect you have on people. Couple years of listenen to you and the kids nothin but a husk now. Ya sucked the soul right outta him! Amazing."

----------


## Aioros22

:Big Grin: 

Batman: So Jason, here we are in our monthly meeting. How are things? Still not killing are you? 

 Red Hood: Weeeel...I did bust some porn ringers up. Some broken bones. Oh I shot one of them but in total self defense. He tried to throw sass at me. At me, can you believe it? 

 Batman: Dammit Jason! We don`t main, steal or kill! How many ti--

 Red Hood: Let`s see, you just asked Selina to marry you this past week, Dick and the Titans used to work with Deathstroke all the time and appearantly you and the Joker...should I stop now? 

 Batman: See you next month

Red Hood: Attaboy.

----------


## Aahz

> As if that weren’t enough to deal with, things only get more complicated when the Outlaws find themselves in the crosshairs of the one and only Batwoman, who will stop at nothing to take down the infamous Red Hood!


I hope that will be only Red Hood vs Batwoman, if Batwoman shouldn't be able to take on the comlete team (imo she shoudn't even be able to take on Jason on her own).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 12's Variant

----------


## Aioros22

Holy crap, Solomon pulling a Knigthfall after Death of Bizzaro!

----------


## Alycat

Looking at that artwork makes my back hurt. Poor Biz.

----------


## Robotman

> Issue 12's Variant


Yes! I love when these two interact. Their weird friendship was my favorite part of the Solomon Grundy mini series. It was actually kinda touching at times. Though the new image doesn't make it look like they're best buddies anymore.

----------


## G-Potion

> Issue 12's Variant


Ouch. That looks painful.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://yktk-zzz.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://yktk-zzz.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://efficiar.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Oh how I wish they incorporated taunt moves for Jason`s gameplay in Injustice. Ora Ora!

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://apinchofsanity.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

SonicFox's Red Hood.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

> Oh how I wish they incorporated taunt moves for Jason`s gameplay in Injustice. Ora Ora!


I think his parry animation, especially the low parry come pretty close.

----------


## G-Potion

Source: https://twitter.com/hanjosi

----------


## Aioros22

> I think his parry animation, especially the low parry come pretty close.


They look the closest but still, oh what I wouldn`t give for that extra gameplay. Taunt are all about making the opponent take a chance and made a dubious move. 

Another extra I miss (and this are extra, I`m really satisfied with maiming Hood as he is, don`t get me wrong) is the voice taunt. Something Shao Khan`s taunts in MKIII that would make my colleagues wanna punch the screen out of frustation. He didn`t just kicked your ass, he would talk you down.

----------


## Aioros22

That said, I love Jason`s range of still animations when nobody is fighting. They suit him, all predatory alike.

----------


## Aioros22

Yildiray Cinar


imthegdbatman.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

Marcio Takara


riley rossmo 
@rileyrossmo1

----------


## RedBird

> That said, I love Jason`s range of still animations when nobody is fighting. They suit him, all predatory alike.


Agreed, even though Jason has a good amount of both forward approaching and evasive moves, he still gives off a very offensive fighting style and look. I think its honestly pretty perfect and close to how I imagine his style in comics. Brutal, Fast and Offensive. (of course taking into account abilities exaggerated by magical pills and what not :P)

----------


## RedBird

*Dexter Soy
*

_Captioned: Are you Hungry_

----------


## Aioros22

Artist`s contact at right corner


imthenic.tumblr.com


Mico Suayan

----------


## Aioros22

rebloggy.com


Denis Medri


Alex Malveda

----------


## Aioros22

> Agreed, even though Jason has a good amount of both forward approaching and evasive moves, he still gives off a very offensive fighting style and look. I think its honestly pretty perfect and close to how I imagine his style in comics. Brutal, Fast and Offensive. (of course taking into account abilities exaggerated by magical pills and what not :P)


If there`s one thing I`m really really happy as a fan is how balanced they managed to give us the character as seen in other media. He`s got a bit of everthing even for diverging tastes of how one Red Hood fan would see things from another and it started with one simple trick: he shoots plenty but doesn`t rely on guns alone in most combos, they`re there to set the string finish. 

I think that trick caught people off guard at first and it was awesome because everyone was thinking he would just be another Harley or Deadshot.

----------


## Aioros22

> *Dexter Soy
> *
> 
> _Captioned: Are you Hungry_


Between Genesis and Rebirth, Soy is quickly becoming *the* Jason poker face  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Extra extra!

----------


## RedBird

InkyDandy is the BEST!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

DC should publish an actual book (paper/digital) of these and give these creators free roam  :Cool: 

Still salty over not having a Lil`Gotham styled title around.

----------


## RedBird

X
Sibling bonding :P

----------


## RedBird

> DC should publish an actual book (paper/digital) of these and give these creators free roam 
> 
> Still salty over not having a Lil`Gotham styled title around.


I know right! Lil Gotham was the best, it was so damn cute and fun. And sad to say it was the only book where I could find all my favorite characters in one place.

----------


## Alycat

Sorry for people who like it, but I do not miss the old Robin uniform.




> DC should publish an actual book (paper/digital) of these and give these creators free roam 
> 
> Still salty over not having a Lil`Gotham styled title around.


I seriously think a monthly Robin book with them just bonding or doing cases would sell well.  Several writers seem to like writing them together too. Pls D.C. I'm giving this idea for free.

----------


## RedBird

> *I seriously think a monthly Robin book with them just bonding or doing cases would sell well.*


I think TONS of fans have been begging for this for a long time. Family Detective work + bits of extra domestic stuff. I would buy the HELL outta that book. 10 copies day 1





> Sorry for people who like it, but I do not miss the old Robin uniform.


LOL which one?? Theres so many

----------


## Alycat

> I think TONS of fans have been begging for this for a long time. Family Detective work + bits of extra domestic stuff. I would but the HELL outta that book. 10 copies day 1
> 
> 
> 
> LOL which one?? Theres so many


I would buy it too. I guess the concern would be ooc behavior? I dunno I think a good writer could handle it.

lol I mean the scaly panties and pixie boots.

----------


## RedBird

> I would buy it too. I guess the concern would be ooc behavior? I dunno I think a good writer could handle it.


To be fair though we get enough OOC behavior in DCs regular books too, at least you can guarantee this book will be a fun read regardless.





> lol I mean the scaly panties and pixie boots.


Shame, I love the old outfit  :Big Grin:  Its goofy yeah, but I get so nostalgic whenever it comes up. Of course the pants make sense, I won't make excuses against that.

Speaking of which, I'm glad that out of the first three Robin boys at least Jason got to have a Robin outfit that was most similar to the classic. I guess they didnt want to change the image of the robin suit case TOO much. Dick unfortunately got saddled with that outfit with ugly colours, and Tim, was, never even robin. Graduated straight to red and black.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'd buy the heck out of a monthly Robins book with them doing cases together and bonding as brothers too. Put the right writer on it and I think it would sell. I also really miss Lil Gotham a lot. That was the best book.

----------


## FlyingHero

Dick and Damian would take all the spotlight anyway. Just give those two a book.

----------


## Alycat

> Dick and Damian would take all the spotlight anyway. Just give those two a book.


That's why you need the right writer who won't  to that stupid Dick/ Damian and Jason/ Tim divide. I think Dick, Damian, and Jason could have a good dynamic. It's terrible nu Tim who people would have to worry about being overshadowed and poorly written.

----------


## RedBird

> Dick and Damian would take all the spotlight anyway. Just give those two a book.


They already have one. It was called Batman and Robin. :P

Psssst besides I want all the batfam members, thats the point, give more combinations a chance DC

----------


## Aioros22

> Dick and Damian would take all the spotlight anyway. Just give those two a book.


Only if the writer would fail at the premise of such a title. Plus, I think some writers clearly enjoy the Jason/Damian dinamic too, even if it comes in smaller doses.

----------


## FlyingHero

The last time the Robin's teamed up, the Damian story happen where he beat them all up. I can't handle that again. Staph!

----------


## Alycat

> The last time the Robin's teamed up, the Damian story happen where he beat them all up. I can't handle that again. Staph!


I actually think Eternal was their last team up. It was terrible for other reasons but they were working together fine.

----------


## G-Potion

> *Dexter Soy
> *
> 
> _Captioned: Are you Hungry_


Perfection.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'd buy the heck out of a monthly Robins book with them doing cases together and bonding as brothers too. Put the right writer on it and I think it would sell. I also really miss Lil Gotham a lot. That was the best book.


Keyword. The right writer. I can't think of anybody in the Batoffice who is right for this book. This could either be my favorite or my most hated book.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Perfection.


Soy's art is perfection.

----------


## G-Potion

> If there`s one thing I`m really really happy as a fan is how balanced they managed to give us the character as seen in other media. He`s got a bit of everthing even for diverging tastes of how one Red Hood fan would see things from another and it started with one simple trick: he shoots plenty but doesn`t rely on guns alone in most combos, they`re there to set the string finish. 
> 
> I think that trick caught people off guard at first and it was awesome because everyone was thinking he would just be another Harley or Deadshot.


I think a lot of people are disappointed that Jason isn't pure rushdown gun-fu style like they expected him to be. But the fact that he's a tricky jack-of-all-trades character with a technical side and mind-game potential says how much NRS gets Jason. I'm happy SonicFox likes him. Brilliant matches to come.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Keyword. The right writer. I can't think of anybody in the Batoffice who is right for this book. This could either be my favorite or my most hated book.


I actually wouldn't want it to be a part of the Bat office at all. I'd like it to be edited in the same office RHATO is and for them to look outside of the Bat office for the writer maybe even outside of DC's stable.

----------


## Alycat

> Soy's art is perfection.


I think he draws my favorite Jason. I like Rocofurt a lot, but Soy has had my heart since Arkham Knight Genesis.

----------


## G-Potion

> I actually wouldn't want it to be a part of the Bat office at all. I'd like it to be edited in the same office RHATO is and for them to look outside of the Bat office for the writer maybe even outside of DC's stable.


As much as I appreciate the editors' job on RHATO, I don't think they've been handling Damian well from what I've seen of Deathstroke and Titans.

----------


## G-Potion

> Agreed, even though Jason has a good amount of both forward approaching and evasive moves, he still gives off a very offensive fighting style and look. I think its honestly pretty perfect and close to how I imagine his style in comics. Brutal, Fast and Offensive. (of course taking into account abilities exaggerated by magical pills and what not :P)


True, true. Also, I'm surprised how popular the Gold Hood look turns out.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Speaking of brothers bonding, here's my favorite fanart on the matter.  :Cool: 



Source: http://shamserg.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22

> I think a lot of people are disappointed that Jason isn't pure rushdown gun-fu style like they expected him to be. But the fact that he's a tricky jack-of-all-trades character with a technical side and mind-game potential says how much NRS gets Jason. I'm happy SonicFox likes him. Brilliant matches to come.


The vast majority looks pleased, some looked surprised and some wanted more rushdown. But the ones who wanted more rushdown likely wouldn`t mind another hard zoner and that`s something the vast majority clearly didn`t cared to have. 

They made the right call, this Jason is more rewarding in long run.

----------


## Aioros22

I`ll raise the bar with more Inkdaddy

----------


## G-Potion

Source: http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://riyancyy777.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

http://blackmoonrose13.deviantart.com

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think he draws my favorite Jason. I like Rocofurt a lot, but Soy has had my heart since Arkham Knight Genesis.


Mine too and I was a big fan of Rocafort's version. 




> As much as I appreciate the editors' job on RHATO, I don't think they've been handling Damian well from what I've seen of Deathstroke and Titans.


In the recent crossover you mean? I'm not sure who was responsible for editing that one since I didn't bother with it so I can't say it was definitely the same editors that were involved. That said, one mistake doesn't mean that they would automatically do a bad job with editing a Robins book assuming of course that the writer involved actually took the time to research the characters beforehand. (Something Priest seemingly failed to do with Damian in that crossover I might add.) Keeping a character consistent isn't really something that starts on the editorial level. That's something that starts off being the responsibility of the writer. They are the ones using the character in their story and it should be they who do the necessary research involved to insure that the character's portrayal remains consistent.

----------


## G-Potion

http://jclifford0301.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

> Mine too and I was a big fan of Rocafort's version. 
> 
> 
> 
> In the recent crossover you mean? I'm not sure who was responsible for editing that one since I didn't bother with it so I can't say it was definitely the same editors that were involved. That said, one mistake doesn't mean that they would automatically do a bad job with editing a Robins book assuming of course that the writer involved actually took the time to research the characters beforehand. (Something Priest seemingly failed to do with Damian in that crossover I might add.) Keeping a character consistent isn't really something that starts on the editorial level. That's something that starts off being the responsibility of the writer. They are the ones using the character in their story and it should be they who do the necessary research involved to insure that the character's portrayal remains consistent.


Well, RHATO, Titans, Teen Titans and Deathstroke are all under the same office. And to be honest, I haven't warmed up to Damian's portrayal in any of those books. And if you've read Priest's blog, the way a character is written is editorial mandate as well. So it goes from editorial office to writer and back to editor again.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Soy's art is perfection.


I can't help to be a little wary about Soy not being the solicited artist for issue 14 though.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s missing the original Robin suit and the Convergence Hood outfit, which I also like  :Cool: 



Is that the All Caste training getup placed at 5th?

----------


## G-Potion

lol.



http://austintoya.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

> It`s missing the original Robin suit and the Convergence Hood outfit, which I also like 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the All Caste training getup placed at 5th?


I can't place it either. I think the All Caste getup is beige with lots of ornaments?

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah but it has to be a training getup. So either All Caste or LOA.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


More from the artist.





http://denkata5698.deviantart.com

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well, RHATO, Titans, Teen Titans and Deathstroke are all under the same office. And to be honest, I haven't warmed up to Damian's portrayal in any of those books. And if you've read Priest's blog, the way a character is written is editorial mandate as well. So it goes from editorial office to writer and back to editor again.


So it was an editorial mandate that lead Damian be written that way in the crossover ignoring all the character development he's had over the years? No wonder it turned out to be such a mess all around then and in all honesty they took certain aspects of his character and amped them up for the crossover. He doesn't act like this badly in TT or Super Sons or anywhere in the Bat books. I actually like him in TT and elsewhere but not in that crossover. I'm sorry but for me it's down to the writing itself. Priest wrote him like a coldblooded jerk and it's Priest that I blame for that.

----------


## G-Potion

> I can't help to be a little wary about Soy not being the solicited artist for issue 14 though.


Pray circle.

----------


## Aahz

> Keyword. The right writer. I can't think of anybody in the Batoffice who is right for this book. This could either be my favorite or my most hated book.


I think Thomasi could be a good option. He wrote a good Nightwing run pre flashpoint, did a great job with Damian post flashpoint and Arkham Knight Genesis was imo also good.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Teachers 

soccer.sina.com.hk


kazumscale.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

seventhwing.lofter.com

----------


## Alycat

> So it was an editorial mandate that lead Damian be written that way in the crossover ignoring all the character development he's had over the years? No wonder it turned out to be such a mess all around then and in all honesty they took certain aspects of his character and amped them up for the crossover. He doesn't act like this badly in TT or Super Sons or anywhere in the Bat books. I actually like him in TT and elsewhere but not in that crossover. I'm sorry but for me it's down to the writing itself. Priest wrote him like a coldblooded jerk and it's Priest that I blame for that.


I mean reading Priests reasoning for writing Damian the way he did does indeed seem like an editorial mandate. Especially since he's an excellent writer.  Crossovers often bring the worst out of editorial and writers.

----------


## G-Potion

Mad respect for those who draw the Knight. They don't skimp out on his armor.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I can't place it either. I think the All Caste getup is beige with lots of ornaments?


Original design from the artist. Only a handful of the designs are official.

----------


## G-Potion

https://laizy-boy.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

http://valerafrost.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Red Hood | 2 | Красный Колпак

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

dickgraysoff.tumblr.com


四ツ谷 on

----------


## G-Potion

Wow. Really wish he has a chance to use it in RHATO someday.

----------


## RedBird

Oh WOW

Soys art really is amazing  :Cool: 

Does anyone know if he will be continuing art for rhato? A few of those future issues seem to have a different artist on board.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh WOW
> 
> Soys art really is amazing 
> 
> Does anyone know if he will be continuing art for rhato? A few of those future issues seem to have a different artist on board.


A few you say? I thought it was only #14?

----------


## RedBird

> A few you say? I thought it was only #14?


Agh sorry about that, I was mistaken and thought 13# was also by McKone. My bad.

----------


## G-Potion

> Agh sorry about that, I was mistaken and thought 13# was also by McKone. My bad.


In any case, I asked him already but he hasn't answered so far. Maybe you guys can try your luck?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Wow. Really wish he has a chance to use it in RHATO someday.


That looks like Soy's take on Medri's design. 



I love it.

----------


## Rise

> 20 Facts about Jason Todd in the media:
> 
> 1) Jasons death was widely covered by the media and caused outrage since people werent happy with how a friendly kid character like Robin was killed in such a brutal way nor the whole voting thing.
> 2) Tim Drake in the 90s Batman show is Jason in every way expect name and his obsession with Batman. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini (the show creators) revealed that the reason why Tim was pretty much Jason 2.0 was because they actually wanted Jason, but they couldnt use him because DC wanted to promote Tim.
> 3) It was noted that Dick Grayson in the 90s Batman movies has some of Jasons traits.
> 4) Robin in the Teen Titans show was a mix of the first three Robins (Dick, Jason and Tim) as it was confirmed by the show creators despite the fact that they give him the first Robins name.
> 5) Jason is teased as one of the possible identities of Red X and Beast Boy completely believe that he is Jason. 
> 6) Jason was referred by name in the Birds of Prey show where he was mentioned in a conversation between Barbara and Helena.
> 7) Jason was mentioned in the Batman: TBB show as a reference to DITF. 
> ...




I despair for a while and return to this  :Big Grin: 

Glad to see Jason doing so well and the 20 facts list suprised me because Jason has a bigger presence in the media than I actually thought.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice chart. Where is it from, Rise?

----------


## G-Potion

From http://kevinbolk.deviantart.com. His series on Bat Villains is great.

----------


## yohyoi

> I despair for a while and return to this 
> 
> Glad to see Jason doing so well and the 20 facts list suprised me because Jason has a bigger presence in the media than I actually thought.


The Justice League score hurts to see. DC's main title at the bottom with an upcoming movie this year. Moviegoers and casual readers will buy it and be disappointed.

Where did you get the survey?

----------


## Caivu

The survey was conducted on Reddit (specifically r/DCComics) in four parts over a few weeks.

----------


## G-Potion

> Glad to see Jason doing so well and the 20 facts list suprised me because Jason has a bigger presence in the media than I actually thought.


And it will get bigger because of this guy.   :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> The survey was conducted on Reddit (specifically r/DCComics) in four parts over a few weeks.


Ahh, thanks for the info!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Great chart  :Cool:  always amazing to see Jason getting more popular among fanbases.


crimsonhorror.deviantart.com

----------


## Rise

> Nice chart. Where is it from, Rise?


Someone sent it to me. It's apparently a survey about which Rebirth series you would recommend and fans voted RHATO as a must read (someone should send it to Lobdell and Soy!)

Anyway, June was sure a crazy month for Jason  :Big Grin: . I2 Red Hood was A+! To quote some fans "Red Hood is the true hero of Injustice and the only one with common sense".

NRS sure did the research and I'm happy with the results. I saw a stream with the guy who was behind developing Red Hood and he talked about how he watched UTRH, read RHATO and some other of Jason appearances before designing him (he apparently become a fan because he was wearing Red Hood shirt lol). The only thing I was disappointed with was the intros, but I can't blame NRS since couldn't bring back the actors because of the voice actors strike. 

RHATO latest issue was great (but super short!). The conclusion was really satisfying and I screamed "heck yeah!" When I saw All-blades. I can see the editors mark all over Jason and Artemis moment, but I can't deny that it was really sweet moment and I'm excited for what coming next.

----------


## Aioros22

The greatest panel in the history of panels

----------


## G-Potion

> Someone sent it to me. It's apparently a survey about which Rebirth series you would recommend and fans voted RHATO as a must read (someone should send it to Lobdell and Soy!)
> 
> Anyway, June was sure a crazy month for Jason . I2 Red Hood was A+! To quote some fans "Red Hood is the true hero of Injustice and the only one with common sense".
> 
> NRS sure did the research and I'm happy with the results. I saw a stream with the guy who was behind developing Red Hood and he talked about how he watched UTRH, read RHATO and some other of Jason appearances before designing him (he apparently become a fan because he was wearing Red Hood shirt lol). The only thing I was disappointed with was the intros, but I can't blame NRS since couldn't bring back the actors because of the voice actors strike. 
> 
> RHATO latest issue was great (but super short!). The conclusion was really satisfying and I screamed "heck yeah!" When I saw All-blades. I can see the editors mark all over Jason and Artemis moment, but I can't deny that it was really sweet moment and I'm excited for what coming next.


The creator of the chart made a mistake. 



Doesn't matter though. A top 5 is still a top 5. And I already twitted it to the team.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

http://shega9146.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

lol what is this even



http://shega9146.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

http://shega9146.deviantart.com

----------


## Alycat

My only disagreement with that chart is Titans being so high up. There isn't much to like about it imo. This last issue really showed that and more people agreeing. Also for me Super Sons has been good, but has yet to his the greatness of the other series in the top 5. But it also has less issues. Nightwing and RhaTO are pretty close and I agree with that.

----------


## Aioros22

Mileage will vary but RATHO and Nigthwing are the best written titles of the line to me. Glad to see a nice response for Green Arrow too which i think after the lackluster start in the reboot has only been picking up since Lemire.

----------


## G-Potion

> My only disagreement with that chart is Titans being so high up. There isn't much to like about it imo. This last issue really showed that and more people agreeing. Also for me Super Sons has been good, but has yet to his the greatness of the other series in the top 5. But it also has less issues. Nightwing and RhaTO are pretty close and I agree with that.


Haven't picked up Titans for a while but definitely agree with what you say about Super Sons.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If only that chart would be reflected on sales.

RHATO was on 100th place for may sales charts

----------


## G-Potion

Seriously why is the JasonDick dynamic so rarely explored? Their fanarts are hella fun.



http://snowzapped.deviantart.com

----------


## Rise

> And it will get bigger because of this guy.


Was he the guy who won the Combo tournament where Jason's trailer was revealed? I remember some gamers complaining about him and being bitter because he always win. Can't wait to see how he will  play him.

----------


## Alycat

> Haven't picked up Titans for a while but definitely agree with what you say about Super Sons.


Yeah Titans has been uh something. Supersons is strange in that I like it and I think its cute but I want more plotwise I suppose?  like I said before  it hasnt been many issues and only 1 arc  but I hope it can stay interesting with guest characters and the boys interactions without wearing thin.


also hoping Seeley and Lobdell plan on staying with Nightwing and RHaTO for a long time. its nice to have writers who care about characters and art that isn't horrible. Its a shame that books like RHaTO and Deathstroke and New Superman dont sell better.

----------


## G-Potion

> Was he the guy who won the Combo tournament where Jason's trailer was revealed? I remember some gamers complaining about him and being bitter because he always win. Can't wait to see how he will  play him.


Yep. And EVO champ multiple times for all NRS games. This guy is a legend. He only picked up Red Hood a few days back and is already wrecking everyone on stream.

Actually you can see his RH now. I posted them a few pages back.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah Titans has been uh something. Supersons is strange in that I like it and I think its cute but I want more plotwise I suppose?  like I said before  it hasnt been many issues and only 1 arc  but I hope it can stay interesting with guest characters and the boys interactions without wearing thin.
> 
> 
> also hoping Seeley and Lobdell plan on staying with Nightwing and RHaTO for a long time. its nice to have writers who care about characters and art that isn't horrible. Its a shame that books like RHaTO and Deathstroke and New Superman dont sell better.


Yeah I feel like Super Sons while good, has been getting very lenient reviews. I like Jon. Damian is still a brat though.

----------


## Alycat

> Seriously why is the JasonDick dynamic so rarely explored? Their fanarts are hella fun.
> 
> 
> 
> http://snowzapped.deviantart.com


I guess writers arent sure what their dynamic should be? Thats why I so excited and a little worried about the annual. I mean Dick and Jason are the only set without one and even Im not sure how I want their intercations to go.

----------


## G-Potion

http://mgnemesi.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://akimao.deviantart.com

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yep. And EVO champ multiple times for all NRS games. This guy is a legend. He only picked up Red Hood a few days back and is already wrecking everyone on stream.
> 
> Actually you can see his RH now. I posted them a few pages back.


That said, is incredibly boring to see him play as Jason. Textbook definition of playing safe.

----------


## Rise

> If only that chart would be reflected on sales.
> 
> RHATO was on 100th place for may sales charts


That's due to Marvel relaunching the X line which doesn't look like it was a successful one. DC not bothering themselves to advertise the book despite the fact that they had the prefect opportunity with the I2 reveal doesn't help either. 

And besides, comic industry needs to update their model and do some necessary changes because I'm getting sick of how little content we are getting in monthly books.

----------


## Alycat

> That said, is incredibly boring to see him play as Jason. Textbook definition of playing safe.


Yeah don't mind SonicFox, but watching the same dude win over and over with the tactics he uses is not very fun to watch.  Like every time, I'm hoping for him to get beat so he will change it up.




> That's due to Marvel relaunching the X line which doesn't look like it was a successful one. DC not bothering themselves to advertise the book despite the fact that they had the prefect opportunity with the I2 reveal doesn't help either. 
> 
> And besides, comic industry needs to update their model and do some necessary changes because I'm getting sick of how little content we are getting in monthly books.


Whats the page difference between weekly and monthly? I agree that a lot of monthly books feel really short.

----------


## Aahz

May had a lot of #1 and Annuals so there is chance that RHatO might go up a few places next month, but the sales are with ~25K anyway not great.

IMO the Batoffice really needs to push Jason (and Barbara) more, instead putting so much efford in all the new and minor Batfamily members.

I mean it is nice that the Outlaws apear in Trinity, but Trinity is not really a major title (it sells a little less than Nightwing, Titans and Supersons), but that Storyline is not even a cross over, and defnitally not an event (and the solits look anyway like the Outlaws were just used as "Damsel in Distress" and need to be rescued by the Trinity and the Magic Trinity, which also not really helping imo).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> May had a lot of #1 and Annuals so there is chance that RHatO might go up a few places next month, but the sales are with ~25K anyway not great.
> 
> IMO the Batoffice really needs to push Jason (and Barbara) more, instead putting so much efford in all the new and minor Batfamily members.
> 
> I mean it is nice that the Outlaws apear in Trinity, but Trinity is not really a major title (it sells a little less than Nightwing, Titans and Supersons), but that Storyline is not even a cross over, and defnitally not an event (and the solits look anyway like the Outlaws were just used as "Damsel in Distress" and need to be rescued by the Trinity and the Magic Trinity, which also not really helping imo).


Events/crossovers aren't the answer. That is just an artificial bump that goes away as soon the story is over and always end derailing any plots the writers had in mind. 

What RHATO needs is to be promoted by editorial. Once the Rebirth issue was published any ad for RHATO was pulled from the books.

----------


## Aahz

> Whats the page difference between weekly and monthly? I agree that a lot of monthly books feel really short.


That doesn't have much to do with the number of pages and more with the number of panels/words and story.

If you for example read older comics, it will usually need much longer than modern ones despite the same number of pages. In the time you need for example to read a comic from the silverage you can probaly easily read 2-3 modern comics. Or look at the killing Joke that story has only the page count of roughly 2 regular issues.

----------


## Alycat

> That doesn't have much to do with the number of pages and more with the number of panels/words and story.
> 
> If you for example read older comics, it will usually need much longer than modern ones despite the same number of pages. In the time you need for example to read a comic from the silverage you can probaly easily read 2-3 modern comics. Or look at the killing Joke that story has only the page count of roughly 2 regular issues.


That explains it then. Its also why i hate double spread pages. The first Trinity issue had a lot of those I believe and the issue felt super short.

----------


## Aahz

> Events/crossovers aren't the answer. That is just an artificial bump that goes away as soon the story is over and always end derailing any plots the writers had in mind.


It gives the book some importance with in the universe, and creates some interest. If a book and it's characters feel just completly irrelevant thats not really helping.

And idealy the writer of the book should be involved in such a "event" in some form.

Otherwise having Jason getting bigger guest appearences in other batfamily books or bigger roles in the Batfamily events (without having a cross over with RHatO) might also help.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Except that as those surveys and facts linked early show, there's already plenty of interest for Jason. Plus, Jason having a major role over the past few years on the Eternals and Robin War didn't changed much about the sales of his own title.

----------


## Aahz

> That explains it then. Its also why i hate double spread pages. The first Trinity issue had a lot of those I believe and the issue felt super short.


It varies of course a lot, RHatO is still OK in this regard, but in other series I had also soem issues where it felt that it took barely 5 mintes to read them (for example the Grayson issues, where Dick was singing his theme song, or the Batman issue where Bruce beat up all of banes men in Santa prisca).

----------


## Aahz

> Plus, Jason having a major role over the past few years on the Eternals and Robin War didn't changed much about the sales of his own title.


That weren't really major roles imo, and most of these appearences were more damaing for the character than promoting him. And he didn't realy got anything out of it.

Compare that for example with the treatment of Nightwing, where they basically used Robin War to set up a new storyline for him, like they also did it for Batwoman over in TEC with the colony.

----------


## Rise

It's definitely not a matter of trying to generate interest in Jason because he got plenty of it and one can even argue that he is becoming the most popular robin nowdays (Boon saying that the reaction they got over Jason was bigger than they ever got with any of DC characters is huge) nor there's a problem with his book since it's very well received. 

The problem is with comic industry itself. The only things that are selling big are events and Batman (and this mainly because of the attention DC keep giving him). DC and Marvel haven't been successful in gaining new fans and they can't keep depending on the older fans because they will not live forever. 

There is a huge problem in the comic industry and they need to find a solution before it's too late.

----------


## Aioros22

Eternals didn`t damaged greatly any of the major characters. It`s a badly written event, nothing more, nothing less. More than that is giving one crap event more power over readers that it desserves. 

What Office is lacking about is promotion. Dark is right, they`ve been barely promoting RATHO past the first issue but Nigthwing gets promoted often with funnily enough the fanbase constantly debating the marketability value and push from DC and WB. Jason gathers interest but DC needs to be more proactive to get it out there and they haven`t.

----------


## Aioros22

Case in point, you`ve just had Red Hood world trending on Twitter with the Injustice release this past month but did DC do anything with it? Where was the variant marketing the thing for example.

----------


## nightbird

Jason is getting enough promotions, inside and outside comics. But all promotions rarely translates to good sales.

----------


## G-Potion

Streaming Red Hood gameplay now at https://www.twitch.tv/zsonicfox

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason is getting enough promotions, inside and outside comics. But all promotions rarely translates to good sales.


Outside Comics yes. 

Inside comics, no. This isn`t about number of appearances but Office _promoting_ his main title over the business media.

----------


## G-Potion

> That said, is incredibly boring to see him play as Jason. Textbook definition of playing safe.


I think his Red Hood is pretty sick now. Watch the stream, it's a lot more exciting than his fight with Bane. That said, however his play style is, he makes Red Hood tournament viable and I'm happy about it.

----------


## nightbird

> Outside Comics yes. 
> 
> Inside comics, no. This isn`t about number of appearances but Office _promoting_ his main title over the business media.


You just compared his promotion to Nightwing's (inside comics). I see absolutely no difference. I understand if you want something beyond that, but DC is hardly unfair to Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> You just compared his promotion to Nightwing's (inside comics). I see absolutely no difference. I understand if you want something beyond that, but DC is hardly unfair to Jason.


The difference is that Nigthwing gets plenty of page time for ads in other books and interviews and articles in comic book related websites whereas Jason/RATHO is clearly more absent. 

Who is talking about unfair? I`m talking about lesser marketing strategy of a book or character in comparison. It`s perfectly fine Ofice thinking that all the buzz Jason gets in other media/fanbases is enough to keep the title going in the long haul but they also have the tools - better than any one of us to see which área they are failing and have the business obligation to better it. More readers means more numbers means more sales.

----------


## Aioros22

To be clear I`m quite happy with how DC is taking care of Jason, anyone who knows me since the book was launched back then knows this. I know he`s more wide popular than ever. That`s not the issue. 

The issue is a quality book missing decent promotion. It`s not the only title either but this is Jason`s Thread so..

----------


## Aioros22

Nope, not Tim Drake

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

Bruce And Jason hugging is so cute. How many times have they done so since N52 started? There was one during the face melting saga and amnesia arc. Was there any more?

----------


## Kalethas31

I'm worried that RHATO sells so poorly being so good  :Frown:

----------


## Alycat

> I'm worried that RHATO sells so poorly being so good


 It always seems to happen this way. The books  I love like this, New Superman, and Deathstroke sell less than I think they should, while trash like Justice League sells fine.

----------


## oasis1313

Where can we go online to see what the numbers are?  I think RHATO is great, the art is fantastic, and Jason's new team is so much better than his last.

----------


## Godlike13

Couple things (and i know these aren't going to be popular),
-Injustice 2 has what like 28 characters, with Jason being a DLC, im not sure what DC should be doing with that. 
-The people reading RHatO being satisfied doesn't mean there is plenty of interest in RHatOs. They do have to create more general interests because the book doesn't really have a general audience. Its fanbase is happy, but beyond its fanbase there doesn't really seem to be much interest or growth. 
-Like Lobdell or not, i think comics readers have already made up their mind about him so if they want new readers it might be time for a change and a new creator behind Red Hood. Someone who's ok being edited out of the Bat office if you want to see the Bat side do more things with him.

----------


## darkseidpwns

They did release Arkham Knight Genesis and Arkham Knight digital series to go with the game so there's that. Injustice too has a comic series coming out so DC is maximizing potential returns and trying to keep interest. I just dont think any one character from IJ was going to get anything major specifically.

----------


## Robotman

I really think Jason should have a gray streak in his hair. It's a look used to show a character has been through a tramatic event or has a connection to death, which Jason has. It's also a good way to differentiate Jason from Dick or Tim on the comic page. They all have a generic young guy with black hair look. 

I still see a lot of fan art where he's drawn with the touch of gray/white hair.

----------


## G-Potion

> I really think Jason should have a gray streak in his hair. It's a look used to show a character has been through a tramatic event or has a connection to death, which Jason has. It's also a good way to differentiate Jason from Dick or Tim on the comic page. They all have a generic young guy with black hair look. 
> 
> I still see a lot of fan art where he's drawn with the touch of gray/white hair.


Heard from a source that at the start of Rebirth, the plan was to give the white streak back to Jason and there would be a circumstance surround it too. It was either scrapped or postponed. If it's the latter, I strongly believe that the future plot regarding Jason's soul would be the best opportunity to bring it back.

----------


## Rise

> Heard from a source that at the start of Rebirth, the plan was to give the white streak back to Jason and there would be a circumstance surround it too. It was either scrapped or postponed. If it's the latter, I strongly believe that the future plot regarding Jason's soul would be the best opportunity to bring it back.


Wait, what future plot regarding Jason's soul? What did I miss? :EEK!:

----------


## G-Potion

> Wait, what future plot regarding Jason's soul? What did I miss?


Remember last issue where the All-Blades, which now feed from Jason's soul, fizzled out on him? A source on tumblr said that Lobdell is going "that way" with Jason's soul, it's very fragile atm, and it's gonna be explored in a few titles, including at least RHATO and Trinity. There was a discussion for it a few pages back as well, where you can see exactly what the source said.

Edited: Start from page 350

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Alycat

I mean the last time we saw the white patch wasnt that long ago in Robin War so no reason to think he still doesnt have it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I mean the last time we saw the white patch wasnt that long ago in Robin War so no reason to think he still doesnt have it.


We know he doesn`t have it. One thing is artistic interpretation that comes out a blue moon, another is using Jason`s soul to add gravitas to character development and make the blades more dangerous than they are. I think if they are careful about it this could be a great marketing strategy for Jason. It will make him visually stand out more than he already does and the connection with fandom artists will draw people bananas and bring more attention. 

You know what, just do it.

----------


## Aioros22

Rise and nigthbird, grab a brew and call it off  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Couple things (and i know these aren't going to be popular),
> -Injustice 2 has what like 28 characters, with Jason being a DLC, im not sure what DC should be doing with that. 
> -The people reading RHatO being satisfied doesn't mean there is plenty of interest in RHatOs. They do have to create more general interests because the book doesn't really have a general audience. Its fanbase is happy, but beyond its fanbase there doesn't really seem to be much interest or growth. 
> -Like Lobdell or not, i think comics readers have already made up their mind about him so if they want new readers it might be time for a change and a new creator behind Red Hood. Someone who's ok being edited out of the Bat office if you want to see the Bat side do more things with him.


-Injustice currently has 30 characters but I don't see what is your point here? Jason's popularity is precisely part of the reason he was made DLC instead of being on the base roster from the get go. We know from concept artists and previous build that Jason was planned as fighter since the start.

-Oh, there's a growing interest on RHATO as those surveys show. Thing is, those surveys come from tumblr, 4chan and reddit where piracy is an everyday thing. As it was pointed earlier on the thread, what DC needs to do is to up their promotion game so they can get to people beyond the usual group of readers.

-And Lobdell is changing that reputation with his current work. The vitriol against him was enormous on the aforementioned sites a couple of years back and now they are very impressed with RHATO (even Fhiz from Gotham Spoilers has gone on record about Lobdell surpassing his expectations with the current RHATO). Plus new readers won't even be familiar with Lobdell's earlier work so they will have less reason to be unhappy with him.




> Where can we go online to see what the numbers are?  I think RHATO is great, the art is fantastic, and Jason's new team is so much better than his last.


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html




> I really think Jason should have a gray streak in his hair. It's a look used to show a character has been through a tramatic event or has a connection to death, which Jason has. It's also a good way to differentiate Jason from Dick or Tim on the comic page. They all have a generic young guy with black hair look. 
> 
> I still see a lot of fan art where he's drawn with the touch of gray/white hair.


I'm fine with Jason as it is now. The grey streak was completely superfluous and it was only shown three times on all the time Jason has been Red Hood. Hush (that it wasn't even him), Morrison's Revenge of the Red Hood (yeah...) and like two panels on the Batman Annual from 2005.

And far as I know, there's no interest from either Lobdell nor editorial to bring the streak back on any way or form.




> I mean the last time we saw the white patch wasnt that long ago in Robin War so no reason to think he still doesnt have it.


Given it was only shown _once_ through the entire story and only on a few panels, I'm leaning to a mix up from the colorist rather than being actually there.

----------


## Alycat

> We know he doesn`t have it. One thing is artistic interpretation that comes out a blue moon, another is using Jason`s soul to add gravitas to character development and make the blades more dangerous than they are. I think if they are careful about it this could be a great marketing strategy for Jason. It will make him visually stand out more than he already does and the connection with fandom artists will draw people bananas and bring more attention. 
> 
> You know what, just do it.



Your mention of the All Blades soul stuff made me hate it again. Way to go Airos  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't want to sound stubborn, that's just my observation, but no amount of promotions grantee that book would be picked up by general comics readers/casual fans, if they're not interested. Somehow word of mouth actully works better.


It`s never a guarantee, granted. But the same happens to movies. If the distribution doesn`t promote it much it won`t reach a wider audience. 

John Carter of Mars was a pretty good flick, better than some of its competition but Disney and associates barely promoted it. The result was people not knowing it was out there. 




> Btw, maybe RHaTO is selling better digitally?


Actually, I would like to know that too. I`m thinking it might. That happens to most titles. 




> Also, sorry, if it came across as me implying that you think Jason treated "unfair", I was talking only about myself, from my own perspective. If it sounded wrong, I'm sorry for poor phrasing. You have every right to wish for Jason to get any amount of promotion, if you're not satisfied. It's not even under discussion here.


No, I don`t believe you were being personal, if you were you might as well not even be on the Thread time to time. Likewise I wasn`t being personal either "pff a Grayson fan talking!  :Big Grin: ". 

I studied Marketing so when I say that for example I see Dick being more widespread in terms of articles and title ads and stuff is just that. It`s not character vs character (tho, that obviously will count what it does) I`m saying in terms of raw promotion attempts, page ads, stuff like that. RATHO hasn`t been heavily promoted since its launch. 

But again, that is also _my_ take.

----------


## Aioros22

> Your mention of the All Blades soul stuff made me hate it again. Way to go Airos


You can always count on me, bro  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Couple things (and i know these aren't going to be popular),
>  -Injustice 2 has what like 28 characters, with Jason being a DLC, im not sure what DC should be doing with that


Take advantage of reception and Twitter world trending. Variant covers and articles floating always help as well DC or RATHO representing themselves when the character was oficially launched/tournaments. 




> -The people reading RHatO being satisfied doesn't mean there is plenty of interest in RHatOs. They do have to create more general interests because the book doesn't really have a general audience. Its fanbase is happy, but beyond its fanbase there doesn't really seem to be much interest or growth


We`ve mention that at large there`s more interest in Jason than RATHO but that was always kind of natural, being the "lead". The others are born again characters and I think that can appeal to the general audience. But here`s a marketing question, given the same. Is RATHO promoted in Wonder and Superman titles? 




> -Like Lobdell or not, i think comics readers have already made up their mind about him so if they want new readers it might be time for a change and a new creator behind Red Hood. Someone who's ok being edited out of the Bat office if you want to see the Bat side do more things with him


That`s honestly an elephant in the room. I`m on the mind that some of the fandom at some point exageratted whatever Loedbell was doing but he`s also responsible for it. When you have a lack of communication to a degree in former volumes that audience that leaves will be reticent in coming back despite workd of the mouth about his new take being unanimously good this time around. 

But again, if DC pushed more interviews and articles on the creative minds (artists and colorist included) in comic social media that might convinced those who left. If not, eventually a new writer will come in to pick up and start a relationship with the audience from scratch. 

Deathstroke isn`t being the top seller but people know who Prist is and what he is doing and the title is all the more safe for it.

----------


## Rise

> Remember last issue where the All-Blades, which now feed from Jason's soul, fizzled out on him? A source on tumblr said that Lobdell is going "that way" with Jason's soul, it's very fragile atm, and it's gonna be explored in a few titles, including at least RHATO and Trinity. There was a discussion for it a few pages back as well, where you can see exactly what the source said.
> 
> Edited: Start from page 350


Thanks, G. Very interesting if it's true and I think it's time for Jason to question how he came back because it would be a good development for him.




> Rise and nigthbird, grab a brew and call it off


No hard feelings from me  :Cool: . I already said before that getting angry at each other over fictional characters isn't worth it and I still stand by my words.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah, if I hadnt checked out most Rebirth things then even I wouldve missed how good RHaTO is. Lobdell's previous work on the title was a huge turn off but I was still able to give this one a new chance, which is hard to convince people to do when they hate previous stuff.

----------


## Aioros22

Out of curiosity, considering you never hide that you hated his previous work on the title, what made you check it out?

----------


## Alycat

> Out of curiosity, considering you never hide that you hated his previous work on the title, what made you check it out?


I checked out all of rebirth and the new titles that come out even for characters that im not necessarily interested in.I hope that the writer can get me interested at least and finding new characters to like is fun.  Tbf, I am always interested in Jason and nothing Lobdell has written will ever touch tentacle Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

So basically you saw all the promotion that was going on and decided to take a gamble or that didn`t factor? I`m asking because I`m trying to figure out whether it was just you trying your luck already knowing the title or seeing the interviews and so and thinking "this may work".

----------


## Alycat

> So basically you saw all the promotion that was going on and decided to take a gamble or that didn`t factor? I`m asking because I`m trying to figure out whether it was just you trying your luck already knowing the title or seeing the interviews and so and thinking "this may work".


Nah I was just trying my luck. I remember paying attention to when the creative teams were announced and being dismayed that Lobdell was staying on. But I powered through the first run for Jason and was just giving it a go again. So for me it was a pleasant surprise. I dont think most people are willing to do that though and I cant blame them for it since why give more chances to someone that made something you hated?  Reputation/ Branding matters quite a bit. I dont think DC expected the praise that its getting and probably expected more hate. Jason is appearing in several books and theres an annual in August. It would be a great time to promote the book then but who knows.

----------


## Rise

Does anyone remember (I admit that I almost forgot about him...) this guy? When do you think Lobdell will reveal his identity?

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah I was just trying my luck. I remember paying attention to when the creative teams were announced and being dismayed that Lobdell was staying on. But I powered through the first run for Jason and was just giving it a go again. So for me it was a pleasant surprise. I dont think most people are willing to do that though and I cant blame them for it since why give more chances to someone that made something you hated?  Reputation/ Branding matters quite a bit. I dont think DC expected the praise that its getting and probably expected more hate. Jason is appearing in several books and theres an annual in August. It would be a great time to promote the book then but who knows.


Ah ok, yeah, that`s what i was trying to get at, in terms of marketing. What do do when lost readers aren`t willing to give a chance?

----------


## G-Potion

SCREENRANT: The DCEU Needs a Red Hood & The Outlaws Movie

Articles about Jason and RHATO have really been coming in since his Injustice 2 debut. What's DC waiting for? Give our boy a push geez.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## SpentShrimp

> -Injustice currently has 30 characters but I don't see what is your point here? Jason's popularity is precisely part of the reason he was made DLC instead of being on the base roster from the get go. We know from concept artists and previous build that Jason was planned as fighter since the start.
> 
> -Oh, there's a growing interest on RHATO as those surveys show. Thing is, those surveys come from tumblr, 4chan and reddit where piracy is an everyday thing. As it was pointed earlier on the thread, what DC needs to do is to up their promotion game so they can get to people beyond the usual group of readers.
> 
> -And Lobdell is changing that reputation with his current work. The vitriol against him was enormous on the aforementioned sites a couple of years back and now they are very impressed with RHATO (even Fhiz from Gotham Spoilers has gone on record about Lobdell surpassing his expectations with the current RHATO). Plus new readers won't even be familiar with Lobdell's earlier work so they will have less reason to be unhappy with him.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html
> ...


I mean it does add to the character's appearance, and it symbolizes past events. Do you have any proof refuting the claims that it won't show up?

----------


## nightbird

> It`s never a guarantee, granted. But the same happens to movies. If the distribution doesn`t promote it much it won`t reach a wider audience. 
> 
> John Carter of Mars was a pretty good flick, better than some of its competition but Disney and associates barely promoted it. The result was people not knowing it was out there. 
> 
> No, I don`t believe you were being personal, if you were you might as well not even be on the Thread time to time. Likewise I wasn`t being personal either "pff a Grayson fan talking! ". 
> 
> I studied Marketing so when I say that for example I see Dick being more widespread in terms of articles and title ads and stuff is just that. It`s not character vs character (tho, that obviously will count what it does) I`m saying in terms of raw promotion attempts, page ads, stuff like that. RATHO hasn`t been heavily promoted since its launch.
> 
> But again, that is also my take.


John Carter had terrible word of mouth and mixed critics reviews. I remember Disney first promoted the hell out of it overseas in attempt to make at least some money. Didn't end up well.

If you studied Marketing, you should know it's hard to make certain community interested in something just by using some ads. They work outside, but not inside.  

Probably because I like Jason too. Just unlike you guys, I'm more a casual version, so my opinion and approach on Jason related stuff a bit different.

If we go there, you're comparing bi-weekly book with monthly. How RHatO is doing compared to other monthly books? 
Another factor could be, that DC just totally satisfied with current RHatO sales and (this will get me in trouble lol) since book went from 90k+ to 25K+ (well, just like almost all books as usual) they're not so sure it could do better than that, especially already so deep into Rebirth.

----------


## Aahz

> John Carter had terrible word of mouth and mixed critics reviews. I remember Disney first promoted the hell out of it overseas in attempt to make at least some money. Didn't end up well.


That movie was just way to expensive for such a obscure property and genre.
If the numbers I found are correct, it had a higher budget than Avengers and Force Awakens. Even if it had made twice the money it did, it would have probaly still been a flop.

----------


## Rise

> Wow. Really wish he has a chance to use it in RHATO someday.


Glad that I searched this thread before I post it.


Seriously, this is indeed wow and I like how it was Japanese inspired. Did any of you guys ever read a manga before? What do you think Jason would be like if he was in a manga?

----------


## Aioros22

Not sure why a few are against the white streak. It doesn`t take anything from the character, it only adds up making him even visually more striking. And it was him in Hush up until the switch at the rooftop so..

----------


## Rise

Only DT seems to be really against it and I think it's mainly because he doesn't understand why fans are so obsessed with it which I can't blame him for it since it only appeared like three times. 

I do actually like it and I wouldn't mind if they decided to bring it back, but I think only few artists will be able to make it look good.

----------


## Aioros22

> John Carter had terrible word of mouth and mixed critics reviews. I remember Disney first promoted the hell out of it overseas in attempt to make at least some money. Didn't end up well


I`ll have to do some homework on it. What I recall was that it was good but terrible lack of promotion lead to audiences being _lost_ with the movie. Especially since it`s amazingly obscure compared to the universally well known Tarzan mythos. I remember a friend going to see it having no idea what to expect whereas I did because, well, I already knew the character. 

Having a humungous budget to meet also adds flames to the fire, of course. Had it been smaller who knows, especially after the financing fiasco of Lone Ranger. 




> If you studied Marketing, you should know it's hard to make certain community interested in something just by using some ads. They work outside, but not inside


That`s just one example and hard is better than nada. If readers pick up super or wonder woman titles and see something about RATHO because of derative characters, they may decide to pick it up. If you have nothing, the "nobuy" is always set up from the go. They could`ve also gone to the character`s oficial launch in Injustice and meet potential new buyers. Stuff like that doesn`t come by every day and in Marketing you need to think outside the box and take advantages. 




> Probably because I like Jason too. Just unlike you guys, I'm more a casual version, so my opinion and approach on Jason related stuff a bit different.
> 
> If we go there, you're comparing bi-weekly book with monthly. How RHatO is doing compared to other monthly books?


That`s something I`d like to see too, out of curiosity. 




> Another factor could be, that DC just totally satisfied with current RHatO sales and (this will get me in trouble lol) since book went from 90k+ to 25K+ (well, just like almost all books as usual) they're not so sure it could do better than that, especially already so deep into Rebirth


Making hard questions shouldn`t get anyone in trouble. It`s perfectly viable that DC is satisfied with it since the drop isn`t abnormal to other quality titles out there and is consistantly getting good reaviews across the board, including like Dark linked, from former critics. It may also add up to Loedbell being safe in editorial offices and the character having a good voice under him. 

Of course, comfort can be tricky as well.

----------


## Aioros22

> Only DT seems to be really against it and I think it's mainly because he doesn't understand why fans are so obsessed with it which I can't blame him for it since it only appeared like three times. 
> 
> I do actually like it and I wouldn't mind if they decided to bring it back, but I think only few artists will be able to make it look good.


I can certainly understand being against it in terms of taking a stance against a fad that mainly grew in the fan artistic community, that`s why you shouldn`t just paste it in but I given that sort of creative attention _towards_ the character, I don`t see any downside to it. 

He`d get another distinctive feature, he would look visually more striking from afar from the pack without the helmet, you win over a connection wink with a fanbase and done well can add gravita to his mythos. 

I`m interested what Dark or someone else would feel is the downside even with proper attention given to it.

----------


## Rise

The downside would be that there's already a DC character called Jason that has the white strike and what I mention before that not many artists would be able to make it look good.

----------


## RedBird

> not many artists would be able to make it look good.


Well in all fairness, we won't really know that till we see it, but if plenty of fan artists can pull it off, I don't see why it would look bad under DCs artists.




> What do you think Jason would be like if he was in a manga?


For me, something reminiscing Spike from Cowboy Bebop. 

Or perhaps he would be a tad more Tsundere knowing Japanese archetypes XD

----------


## Rise

> Well in all fairness, we won't really know that till we see it, but if plenty of fan artists can pull it off, I don't see why it would look bad under DCs artists.


Indeed. I based it mainly on the fact that they are already characters with the white strike and the artists rarely make it look good on them. Fan artists can make it look good because they have more freedom and don't have to meet deadline. 




> For me, something reminiscing Spike from Cowboy Bebop. 
> 
> Or perhaps he would be a tad more Tsundere knowing Japanese archetypes XD


Oooh interesting choice. 

Artemis is the one who going to be the tsundere  :Wink: . Jason will be the jerk with the heart of gold archetype. 

I actually would love to see Takehiko Inoue take on Jason (he is absolutely my favorite writer and the only one who I actually followed his work).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I mean it does add to the character's appearance, and it symbolizes past events. Do you have any proof refuting the claims that it won't show up?


I've had the chance to talk with Lobdell himself and collaborators close to him and the white streak is something he doesn't really care about, any visual change would come from editorial and the artists he works with (Medri got a lot of breathing room when he worked on RH/A for example) and given editorial hasn't asked for the streak on more than six years, is a safe bet to assume they don't think is a relevant element of Jason's appearance.




> Not sure why a few are against the white streak. It doesn`t take anything from the character, it only adds up making him even visually more striking. And it was him in Hush up until the switch at the rooftop so..


Jason is visually distinctive as it is now and adding a white streak seems like a lazy way from the artists to avoid giving Jason actual distinctive facial features. Plus, a white streak tends to be associated with certain tropes that only continue to perpetuate the "broody badass" image Lobdell has worked to shed from Jason.  Personally I found the white streak to making him even less distinctive on fanart with few artists being able to properly mesh on their designs without standing out as a sore thumb.

I also like the similarity shared between Bruce and his wards since makes more obvious the fact they're family. A lot of real life families share that same similarity between fathers and sons after all.

Jason being on Hush is a retcon itself. Loeb at least never thought seriously about having Jason appear on Hush.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah like said whether it was just artist interpretation or not, white streak makes it much easier to visually identify Jason like the flashback part of Robin war. I was like oh yeah thats Jason and not Dick. That Grayson issue where Dick admitted to not being dead looked like Jason or Dick punching themselves. Which is partly Janin's style but the streak could've helped.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah like said whether it was just artist interpretation or not, white streak makes it much easier to visually identify Jason like the flashback part of Robin war. I was like oh yeah thats Jason and not Dick. That Grayson issue where Dick admitted to not being dead looked like Jason or Dick punching themselves. Which is partly Janin's style but the streak could've helped.


My point exactly, a good artist should be able to draw more than one face. Medri, Soy, Rocafort, Jimenez are able to visually differentiate Jason from Bruce or the other Robins without needing a streak.

----------


## Aahz

> If we go there, you're comparing bi-weekly book with monthly. How RHatO is doing compared to other monthly books?


Strongest montly book is All Star Batman with sales in the high 60s, Super Sons and Titans are arround 40K, Teent Titans and Trinity in the mid 30s, Batwoman is arround 30K but that might change since it is just 3 issues in, the other monthlys are below RHatO (I looked mostly on the April numbers since in May Lazarus Contract boosted the sales of the 3 titles that were part of it).

Btw. it will be intersting to see how Lazarus Contract and the new direction resulting from it will affect Deathstroke sales number, which were previously not that great.

----------


## G-Potion

New Red Hood figure from Prime 1 Studio. Coming soon.

MMDC-23: RED HOOD STORY PACK (BATMAN: ARKHAM KNIGHT)
"You always told me, Bruce... focus on what I want to achieve and it’ll happen. Well you want to know what I want now? Huh? I want you dead."
Prime 1 Studio is proud to present MMDC-23: Red Hood Story Pack from Batman: Arkham Knight. Jason Todd was a street orphan until he met Batman after he had saved him from The Joker. Jason took up the tittle of the Red Hood, a name that was used by the Joker prior to his transformation. The Red Hood story pack is an Arkham Episode story DLC in Batman: Arkham Knight. It takes place after the events of the game. The DLC includes Red Hood as a playable character, and comes with the Arkham Knight skin for Red Hood, and a small story segment.
Statue feature: 
- Size approximately 32 inches tall [(H)81.75 cm (W)44.98 cm (D)31.55 cm]
- Limited quantity worldwide
- One (1) alternate Exclusive Portrait (EXCLUSIVE version only)
Retail Price: 
- Regular version: $899 US
- Exclusive version: $929 US
Edition Size: 
- Regular version: 500
- Exclusive version: 300
Prototype samples shown.
Product details could be subjected to change without further notice.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Prime 1 Studio's previous Red Hood figure

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It would be nice if Jason got merch that didn't cost a kidney.

----------


## G-Potion

To look at, not to buy.  :Frown:

----------


## Rise

Hot Toys are relasing a new figure of Arkham Knight too.

Batman: Arkham Knight’s Titular Character Gets An Ultra-Detailed New Figure

.

----------


## G-Potion

They nailed it with the timing.

----------


## Rise

They are definitely smarter than DC when it comes to using the prefect opportunity. 




> To look at, not to buy.


I'm not kind of person who buy character march, but I remember some fans complaining that Jason's march are extermly expensive. Though, the fact that they keep making them means that they are selling well.

----------


## G-Potion

Love these poses.

----------


## G-Potion

> They are definitely smarter than DC when it comes to using the prefect opportunity. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not kind of person who buy character march, but I remember some fans complaining that Jason's march are extermly expensive. Though, the fact that they keep making them means that they are selling well.


Yep. It's all about exposure for Jason for me. I don't buy them either.

----------


## Alycat

They are really well made so the price doesn't bother me. I dont buy merch though so yeah.

----------


## Godlike13

The helmet with out eyes is actually pretty cool.

----------


## G-Potion

http://touzoku-no-akashi.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://touzoku-no-akashi.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://twinenigma.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://atomic-clover.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

SonicFox talked a bit about Red Hood in this interview. Can't wait to see him bring Hood to EVO.

----------


## Rise

Oh, I remember this guy. He was the one who hosted I2 panel in E3 and is a big fan of Red Hood.

Let's see what SonicFox is going to do with Red Hood in EVO.

----------


## Aioros22

> The downside would be that there's already a DC character called Jason that has the white strike and what I mention before that not many artists would be able to make it look good.


That`s about the one viable downside but only if you suck at designing something simple and trying to complicate what doesn`t need to be complicating. Both Jason have different shades, faces, hairstyles and color.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That`s about the one viable downside but only if you suck at designing something simple and trying to complicate what doesn`t need to be complicating. Both Jason have different shades, faces, hairstyles and color.


The same can be said of Jason, Dick, Tim Damian and Bruce and yet, here we are.

----------


## Aioros22

> I've had the chance to talk with Lobdell himself and collaborators close to him and the white streak is something he doesn't really care about, any visual change would come from editorial and the artists he works with (Medri got a lot of breathing room when he worked on RH/A for example) and given editorial hasn't asked for the streak on more than six years, is a safe bet to assume they don't think is a relevant element of Jason's appearance.
> 
> Jason is visually distinctive as it is now and adding a white streak seems like a lazy way from the artists to avoid giving Jason actual distinctive facial features. Plus, a white streak tends to be associated with certain tropes that only continue to perpetuate the "broody badass" image Lobdell has worked to shed from Jason.  Personally I found the white streak to making him even less distinctive on fanart with few artists being able to properly mesh on their designs without standing out as a sore thumb.
> 
> I also like the similarity shared between Bruce and his wards since makes more obvious the fact they're family. A lot of real life families share that same similarity between fathers and sons after all.


I`m among the few on this board that doesn`t think they`re all the same but they share alot of features in common that from afar are pretty look alike if not for the costume design. And being said, most aren`t kin and blood of his, so genetically..

Small details like a spitcurl for the hair can make them distinctable and add layers. Adding layers sometimes isn`t a necessity, it`s just that, to spice the flavor and round the edges. I find that my impression on fanart is totally the opposite of yours. I think it makes someone instantly not think of anyone else which to me is never a lack of but a plus. 

I think it`s lazier drawing everyone with the same face than adding design details frankly but I also get (since I also draw) that putting around 20 pages a month with more than one similar character when they meet is hard to work around giving different face structures when they have to work on speed. Artists like Perez and Jimenez are the vast minority and rare breed. But this isn`t even about pick and chose, I want both wherever possible but I just get that one is more feesible to work on Comic most artist`s strenghts and adaptability over the other. 




> Jason being on Hush is a retcon itself. Loeb at least never thought seriously about having Jason appear on Hush.


Well, that is sort of irrelevant when talking stories where the streak appeared. I`m aware Loeb pulled back but Winnick didn`t.

----------


## Aioros22

> The same can be said of Jason, Dick, Tim Damian and Bruce and yet, here we are.


The same can be said but they all share more similarities in features and build than Jason Blood and Jason Todd ever would, you are aware.

----------


## Aioros22

Space gods, that Starfire, woof woof  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Well, that is sort of irrelevant when talking stories where the streak appeared. I`m aware Loeb pulled back but Winnick didn`t.


Not exactly. Because it means people are to an appearance wasn't Jason's in the first place. The first real appearance of a resurrected Jason was on UTRH sans the white streak. In fact Winnick never used the streak, when he picked up were Morrison left. March (and by extension Winnick) did away with the balding, the zits and the white streak, despite keeping the red hair.




> The same can be said but they all share more similarities in features and build than Jason Blood and Jason Todd ever would, you are aware.


Blood and Jason would have a more similar build (in the sense that Blood is your average buff man on most depictions) than Jason has with the batfamily being he's consistently depicted as second to Bruce on build with Dick and Tim being more lithe than them.

----------


## Alycat

That hat of Roy makes me mad every time I see it. i don't even know why, I just hate it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I like the hat and it was a neat touch that Jason kept the hat on the Future's End continuity even after they had a fallout.

----------


## Aioros22

> Not exactly. Because it means people are to an appearance wasn't Jason's in the first place. The first real appearance of a resurrected Jason was on UTRH sans the white streak. In fact Winnick never used the streak, when he picked up were Morrison left. March (and by extension Winnick) did away with the balding, the zits and the white streak, despite keeping the red hair.


I don`t see why this is even a relevant point to make. What Loeb originally intended doesn`t matter here because Winnick make clear that it was Jason until the rooftop switch. I`m not making any online petition about the streak or anything, I`m just pointing out the obvious. 

Pre Flashpoint, Jason`s first appearance isn`t in "Under The Red Hood". It`s "Hush". Hence why it`s brought up when fans talk about it. 




> Blood and Jason would have a more similar build (in the sense that Blood is your average buff man on most depictions) than Jason has with the batfamily being he's consistently depicted as second to Bruce on build with Dick and Tim being more lithe than them.


Sorry, I don`t see eye to eye with you here. 

Jason Blood is drawn as an older man to someone like Bruce. He`s got average build for a superhero community world. He`s usually skinnier, with a longer "European" face unlike the standard square jaw truck most of the others do. He`s drawn that way exactly to amp the complete constrast with the Demon. 

I know there will be examples with sligthly interpretations and all but usually, that`s the concept. 

Jason, Dick and even Tim are all usually drawn alike Bruce. A good deal of the time the main difference is stuff like height.  As a matter of exercise I`m kind of safe you can`t find more examples of Blood and Jason being alike than you can find of the three main boyos together.

----------


## Aioros22

What can I say, if it`s lazy, it will be lazy regardless of it

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

> I like the hat and it was a neat touch that Jason kept the hat on the Future's End continuity even after they had a fallout.


I think its the hate combined with the long/shaggy hair. Like I hate it much less now that his hair is cut.

----------


## Aioros22

Some people instantly think of redneck when they see a trucker hat but I view that more telling on people than the actual hat or character wearing it.

----------


## Aahz

I just saw that they are publishing a collection with a few stories from Jasons Time as Robin (including 10 Nights of the Beast) next week. Unfortunatly it is quite expensive and overlaps with second chances.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It's such a shame that DCYou crashed and burned. Jason and Roy as government contractors would've been such an amazing direction to take the characters.

----------


## G-Potion

The ghost with the cat hairpin.... is it Ducra???



http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, those are awesome!

The play with Loedbell`s name, just massive  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

nanihoo.deviantart.com


eladies.sina.com.hk

----------


## Aioros22

redhoed.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

comic-ologist.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

Mai‏ 
@m4stry  
Jason, the tallest child of Bruce is the smallest in his new group 😂👌

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/ReallyHaylee/sta...68903985737728




Pertinent question but has anyone seen the recent trailer to American Assassin and think Dylan O`Brian could make a good cast choice for Jason? I kind of like the tone they show here.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/ReallyHaylee/sta...68903985737728
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pertinent question but has anyone seen the recent trailer to American Assassin and think Dylan O`Brian could make a good cast choice for Jason? I kind of like the tone they show here.


I'll just imagine this is how a Lost Days trailer would look like.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Even older Bruce is there  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Funny bit is, the "Ghost" part and cast would equally fit for Jason. Taylor Kitsch has been a favorite choice of mine for awhile since John Carter.

----------


## Aioros22

Credits to yohyoi from the Tim Thread (and from DC Reddit in turn)



Interesting bits: 

The guy at right that looked like Red Hood kind of looks like Lobo here with the over pale pallette. 

Black Manta looks small as heck. I know it doesn`t matter to fans here but I`m an Aqua dude and that rubs me the wrong way. Moving on..

At Upper left there`s seemingly a Robin with staff. Oddly, the colors make him look like Aquaman too much and it would be my pick at first if I didn`t already know he was next to the Trinity already. The detail in the staff for a comic fan would probably make anyone think of Tim first but we know that the Robin suit belonged to Jason and he used a quarterstaff. Could be  a reference or one picking after another. 

The artist in me is wondering if the good resolution comes from any sort of extra manipulation.

----------


## Red_Hood

> http://voxvulpina.deviantart.com/


heh.  awesome.

----------


## adrikito

> Mai‏ 
> @m4stry  
> Jason, the tallest child of Bruce is the smallest in his new group ����


HHAHAHA.. With TITANS like these 2 this is not strange.

----------


## yohyoi

I wanted to share the hard time I had on differentiating Red Hood and Deadshot's silhouettes. The helmet, guns and body build did not help. Deadshot's wrist guns are also hard to see in a silhouette. The big difference I found is Red Hood regularly has a jacket or a hood. His jacket has an unfolded collar that helps differentiate their silhouettes.

----------


## Aahz

> HHAHAHA.. With TITANS like these 2 this is not strange.


Offically Artemeis and Jason are iirc both 6'0''.

----------


## Aioros22

You did a great job with the resolution, the one I thought was Hood just came out as Lobo to me (right side of Black Manta). 

Which exact silhouette are you pinpointing as Red Hood and Deadshot, just to place everyone on even level?

----------


## yohyoi

> You did a great job with the resolution, the one I thought was Hood just came out as Lobo to me (right side of Black Manta). 
> 
> Which exact silhouette are you pinpointing as Red Hood and Deadshot, just to place everyone on even level?


Left of Black Manta.

----------


## Aioros22

Between Mera and Manta, I could see that. That`s for Hood, right? What about Deadshot. 

The one behind Catwoman looks a dead-on Slade.

----------


## Aahz

> Left of Black Manta.


That defnitally Deadshot, and the guy between Captain Marvel and Catwoman is probaly Deathstoke, i don't think that Jason is in this picture.

----------


## yohyoi

> Between Mera and Manta, I could see that. That`s for Hood, right? What about Deadshot. 
> 
> The one behind Catwoman looks a dead-on Slade.


I was determining if the silhouette was Red Hood or Deadshot. The jacket collar is a giveaway it's Red Hood. It's Deadshot since he isn't wearing any jacket.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Credits to yohyoi from the Tim Thread (and from DC Reddit in turn)
> At Upper left there`s seemingly a Robin with staff. Oddly, the colors make him look like Aquaman too much and it would be my pick at first if I didn`t already know he was next to the Trinity already. The detail in the staff for a comic fan would probably make anyone think of Tim first but we know that the Robin suit belonged to Jason and he used a quarterstaff. Could be  a reference or one picking after another.


That's not a Robin, is Mr Miracle. Big Barda is at his left side even.

EDIT: Tweaked the picture a bit on GIMP, I'm sad to say the guy at Manta's left is most likely Deadshot.

----------


## RedQueen

you can definitely make out barbara, dick and harley

----------


## Aioros22

> I was determining if the silhouette was Red Hood or Deadshot. The jacket collar is a giveaway it's Red Hood. It's Deadshot since he isn't wearing any jacket.


Red Hood doesn`t require a jacket (See AK) but I`m leaning towards Deadshot too. The mask is light and overall it looks the presentation seen in SS.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's not a Robin, is Mr Miracle. Big Barda is at his left side even.
> 
> EDIT: Tweaked the picture a bit on GIMP, I'm sad to say the guy at Manta's left is most likely Deadshot.


Mr Miracle seems to be at the top right (hovering Brainiac). From what I caught up, yohyoi was talking about the bright colored skinnier figure at his left that seems to be wielding a staff. The suit which looks exactly like Aquaman`s colors except it can`t be Aquaman.

----------


## Aahz

> Red Hood doesn`t require a jacket (See AK) but I`m leaning towards Deadshot too. The mask is light and overall it looks the presentation seen in SS.


The suit looks red and the mask silver, thats defintally Deadshot

----------


## Aioros22

austintoya.tumblr.com


silvanoir.deviantart.com


fish-ghost.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Philip Tan


Wes Craig

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## SpentShrimp

> I like the hat and it was a neat touch that Jason kept the hat on the Future's End continuity even after they had a fallout.


But the hat doesn't do anything to add to the character.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

_From the underrated Year 3 "he was your son"._

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But the hat doesn't do anything to add to the character.


It does.

Not only adds another element to make him visually distinctive but the mere fact he uses a hat regardless the situation perfectly conveys this version of Roy is a more relaxed one.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/mattydevinbrown

----------


## G-Potion

http://holyyesterday.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://digitalfrontiers.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://bambilena.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://lets-jam.tumblr.com/

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> http://lets-jam.tumblr.com/


Absolutely love this one. Well played Artemis, well played.

----------


## G-Potion

Great article about Injustice 2 Red Hood from Destructoid:

Red Hood makes me hopeful for Injustice 2's long-term prospects




> He's an honest character (or as honest as any character gets in Injustice 2) and it will take honest time and play to figure out just what he can do.

----------


## Aioros22

See, that`s how I saw it too. They could have gone the easier route and didn`t and he`s so much more rewarding because of it.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

A couple of things about Jason though that suck is locking some cool stuff behind gear, which applies to everyone.

----------


## Aioros22

로밀티 on

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> A couple of things about Jason though that suck is locking some cool stuff behind gear, which applies to everyone.


Granted, that`s a game design choice, not a character pick.

----------


## Aioros22

colours07.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22

咎

----------


## Aioros22

zerochan.net






Ahh fandom xD

----------


## G-Potion

http://pentapoda.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://just-cuz-rivaldi.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://itsnezumi.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

http://careamorran.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

https://jason-sxy-todd.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

_And if they drag you through the mud
It doesn’t change what’s in your blood
When they knock you down_

https://officialroyharper.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

I can`t find my phone aka I got better shite to do  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

cat-gray-and-me78.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

They even found the perfect avatar for Jason.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Credits to Cesar, G, I didn`t make it but I went to look for it to make the post  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

Oh wait, you are talking about the Phone funny  :Big Grin: 

I`ll leave myself out.

----------


## Alycat

> Granted, that`s a game design choice, not a character pick.


True. Gun throw move and  Nightwing staff never seeing tournament play really sucks though.  The only other major negative is the effect that the voice acting strike may have had on character dialogue for his interactions.

----------


## Aahz

> 


I don't get why people think that this would be Jason.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> It does.
> 
> Not only adds another element to make him visually distinctive but the mere fact he uses a hat regardless the situation perfectly conveys this version of Roy is a more relaxed one.


So you mean like Jason's white streak?

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't get why people think that this would be Jason.


If it acts like a Jason people will think it`s a Jason. 

I saw the movie. This Robin (not especifically named in it) sports quite the spunk in him. To me, that`s not Tim. That`s obviously not Damian. It could be Dick but Sass is not a tool usually associated within his character revisions.

----------


## Aioros22

> So you mean like Jason's white streak?


Holy Zoing Batman!

----------


## yohyoi

> If it acts like a Jason people will think it`s a Jason. 
> 
> I saw the movie. This Robin (not especifically named in it) sports quite the spunk in him. To me, that`s not Tim. That`s obviously not Damian. It could be Dick but Sass is not a tool usually associated within his character revisions.


The problem with Dick is we get a lot media representations of him as a Robin. We get campy from the 60's to crazed megalomaniac in TTG to laughing daredevil in The Batman. Dick as a Robin is simply one size fits all.

----------


## Aioros22

> The problem with Dick is we get a lot media representations of him as a Robin. We get campy from the 60's to crazed megalomaniac in TTG to laughing daredevil in The Batman. Dick as a Robin is simply one size fits all.


And that`s because in most cases it`s not just Dick, it`s amalgamations. 

This one is likely one too but I have to point the weirdness of someone pointing out where anyone would not see Jason in this guy.

----------


## Aioros22

To me this whole scene screams more Jason by showing off how proactive he is than for example Tim. Even the nerdy hobby isn`t a nerdy hobby. It`s gaming. It`s just _modern._ and it`s not like Jason in comics didn`t learn "Computer Science" on top of being a grade A student because he did  :Big Grin: 

Altho I`m sure not many know but whatever. 

Realistically, it`s an amalgamation but I believe it`s easy to see where most of the inspiration of the parts that popped off come from.

----------


## yohyoi

> And that`s because in most cases it`s not just Dick, it`s amalgamations. 
> 
> This one is likely one too but I have to point the weirdness of someone pointing out where anyone would not see Jason in this guy.


That's like saying there is only one kind of Batman in media. Robin tend to change as much Batman in media. Robin's default is Dick, like how Batman's default is Bruce.

Even the New52 Dick Robin removed the silver age campiness for some of Tim Robin modernness and grit.

----------


## Aahz

> If it acts like a Jason people will think it`s a Jason. 
> 
> I saw the movie. This Robin (not especifically named in it) sports quite the spunk in him. To me, that`s not Tim. That`s obviously not Damian. It could be Dick but Sass is not a tool usually associated within his character revisions.


I'm, pretty sure that this is supposed to be Dick.The difference between how they both acted as Robin is not that different, and generic Robin without having his name stated is usually Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's like saying there is only one kind of Batman in media. Robin tend to change as much Batman in media. Robin's default is Dick, like how Batman's default is Bruce. 
> 
> Even the New52 Dick Robin removed the silver age campiness for some of Tim Robin modernness and grit.


And to bring it full circle, a default doesn`t mean it _is_. Batman and Robin don`t share the same level of default. Robin is shared by a number of characters who weren`t warming the seat for Grayson to come back, which is what happens to Batman. 

Anyhow, just pointing out why fans would see this one as Jason instead any of the others first. I think it`s easy to see why.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Holy Zoing Batman!


I think our friend just ate his own words.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm, pretty sure that this is supposed to be Dick.The difference between how they both acted as Robin is not that different, and generic Robin without having his name stated is usually Dick.


It`s not _dramatically_ different if you read the books back then but it planted seeds for the revisions we have _today_. This Robin is proactive, headstrong, physical and stubburn. Those are Jason-ish qualities being played. 

Seriously, it`s like I`m pooping on sacred ground by mentioning the obvious just because "Dick" is usually the one used. Usually isn`t always and we even have examples of names being used just to bridge in with comics, like the TAS Robin who basically just shares the name.

----------


## yohyoi

> I'm, pretty sure that this is supposed to be Dick.The difference between how they both acted as Robin is not that different, and generic Robin without having his name stated is usually Dick.


I agree. The Robins are not too different even in comics, except Damian. Damian as a Robin is very different from his predecessors. I can't differentiate the first three Robins unless their personalities are turned up to the extreme. Like making them human iteration of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think you`re being honest. 

Post Crisis Jason was indeed different than Dick. What he wasn`t was exageratted to the extreme like post death writers used him to sell the contrast with Tim. That`s something else. You don`t suddently turn Jason a Dick 2.0 just by making clear they exageratted the flaws to acentuate the next kid. 

They were both heroic, nice positive kids, smart and good figthers. That`s similarity. But Jason had qualities and struggles that Dick didn`t and vice versa, there was nuance. I can`t agree with anyone saying you can`t differenciate the first three. That`s lazy reading to me. 

And like, Damian shared similarities with Jason when he was created as well. The New52 nigthwing even flat out pointed that comparison.

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWIv5EbDP2K/




Talking about Ninja Turtles xD 

The first one is very Mirage-ish

----------


## Aahz

That really depends on the version of Dick (he diffred quite a lot over the years), appart from the later Issues in Starlins Run, Jason is still quite within the "standard deviation", and there are some comics (Starlins The Cult for example, and most of Barrs Run), where he is really not distinguishable from Dick.

And there are imo also some older incarnation where Dick showed traits that are usually attributed to Tim.

And the trapped in Time Robin doesn't really show any really specific Jason traits or nuances imo.

----------


## Alycat

> If it acts like a Jason people will think it`s a Jason. 
> 
> I saw the movie. This Robin (not especifically named in it) sports quite the spunk in him. To me, that`s not Tim. That`s obviously not Damian. It could be Dick but Sass is not a tool usually associated within his character revisions.


Really? I think Sass is pretty Dick like imo. Actually they can all be pretty sassy at points, the fandom that breaks them down into certain traits have a poor grasp on their characters because the boys share a lot of traits. Its like people who complain about YJ Dick being able to hack and calling it Tims thing when it isnt true. Or how they keep saying serious Robin in the cartoon is also A Tim trait when Dick was actually quite serious in the Titans. Sassy is such a generic quality and since Dick covers most of those bases its baffling why Jason would be the first choice over Dick.

----------


## yohyoi

I don't get fandoms. In my time headcannons doesn't exist. I'm getting old.

----------


## Aahz

> Really? I think Sass is pretty Dick like imo.


He was actually quite famous for making puns.

----------


## Aioros22

> That really depends on the version of Dick (he diffred quite a lot over the years), appart from the later Issues in Starlins Run, Jason is still quite within the "standard deviation", and there are some comics (Starlins The Cult for example, and most of Barrs Run), where he is really not distinguishable from Dick.
> 
> And there are imo also some older incarnation where Dick showed traits that are usually attributed to Tim.
> 
> And the trapped in Time Robin doesn't really show any really specific Jason traits or nuances imo.


It`s like the Turtles arguments all over again. They`re shades of green, they`re similar but they aren`t the same. 

Barr and early Starlin`s Jason had simlarities but at the same time they weren`t supposed to be the same character. Collins/Starlin in particular was quite clear showing he had qualities/ways of thinking that Dick wouldn`t emulate exactly the same way, I`m not even talking about the flaws. You should know, you`ve read it. 

Shades of green. They`re different.

----------


## Aioros22

> Really? I think Sass is pretty Dick like imo. Actually they can all be pretty sassy at points, the fandom that breaks them down into certain traits have a poor grasp on their characters because the boys share a lot of traits. Its like people who complain about YJ Dick being able to hack and calling it Tims thing when it isnt true. Or how they keep saying serious Robin in the cartoon is also A Tim trait when Dick was actually quite serious in the Titans. Sassy is such a generic quality and since Dick covers most of those bases its baffling why Jason would be the first choice over Dick.


Again, Sassy is a "generic quality" mostly attributed to Jason`s character. It assimulates a somewhat rebelious thinking, a sort of naughty streak. 

sass/sæs/ 
noun 
1. 
insolent or impudent talk or behaviour 
verb (intransitive) 
2. 
to talk or answer back in such a way 

Under likely a myrad of writers, Dick wouldn`t be the kid to call Batman a boob and hit him with a tire. That`s not to say Dick a kid singing in achoir with a halo on his head and Jason is a little devil with horns, it just means that across media the one with the most rebelious nature, because he had to be in order to survive, is usually Jason.  I`m aware he and Bruce had their arguments but before Jason showed up they where mostly growing pain arguments, about growing up. Nothing particularly snarky or sass. 

Dick did indeed got serious as Robin, but in the later stages of his time before his transition to Nigthwing. Tim is usually associated with "serious" more often because his inception in comics is dependable of a previous child dying in the line of duty. 

is honestly baffling to me that someone would think is baffling anyone thinking this guy sounds more like the Jason most people know than Dick. Who cares whether they first thought of Dick or not? I`m talking about the presentation of character. 

Is anything sacred, folks?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So you mean like Jason's white streak?


No because the white streak never had any relevant impact on Jason's characterization unlike Roy's hat.  The closest thing it got was the way Morrison used it to point out Jason as "damaged goods" whereas Lobdell (and surprisingly Tynion) used the hat to showcase Roy's personality via having different hats for every occasion, have Roy allude to the hat and what implied of him on his dialogue and the previously mentioned use as memento during Future's End.




> I think our friend just ate his own words.


I don't check the thread every single day, especially not now when most of the posts are just picture dumps.

----------


## RedBird

> https://jason-sxy-todd.tumblr.com/


That one makes me laugh every time I see it. XD


Has this one been posted already?



All 'dead inside' jokes aside. Anyone suppose that Jason may in fact be apathetic towards living? If we go by the UTRH film I always assumed he was at least partly suicidal, especially towards the ending.

----------


## G-Potion

> All 'dead inside' jokes aside. Anyone suppose that Jason may on fact be apathetic towards living? If we go by the UTRH film I always assumed he was at least partly suicidal, especially towards the ending.


You might just be right. RHATO's Jason also said something along the line of "Not everyone wants to be alive". Not to say he's suicidal per se, but he seems to not care much about being alive when he's overwhelmed by negative emotion. It's why I'm drawn towards this character so much, compared to the other Robins. He feels very strongly.

That said, that scene in UTRH film really gave it a stronger emotional punch than the original comics.

----------


## G-Potion

> So you mean like Jason's white streak?


Oh you! XD

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t see it as suicidal either per-se, it`s just a different way of breaking the 4th Wall. He`s seen the other side. Emotionally, spiritually even, that will leave the mark. UTRH was his most emotional driven, chaotic self (that still counts for the character) and you one should realize that at one point, neither life or death "wanted him". 

The psyche bits of Rebirth`sRATHO have been hugely my favorite thing of the book, with character interaction coming second and action coming in third. It`s just great that some things are finally adressed head on instead of being implied, but mileage will vary.

----------


## Aioros22

Incidentally, that was the one bit of characterization Morrison touched that I found interesting but it has to be mostly toned down unless you deal with stories that are supposed to be Meta, like..well Dark Metal or Endgame, maybe a Diner scene a bit, where characters are more than just lines on paper winking at the public. Usually, and that`s how Loedbell mostly writes him as, Jason is a character with a sense of misplace. He doesn`t really feel home necessarily anywhere and his death was the cutting of that linear narrative. 

On Meta themed stories tho, I wouldn`t mind Jason going 4th Wall on readers. Would that feel too off for you guys?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You might just be right. RHATO's Jason also said something along the line of "Not everyone wants to be alive". Not to say he's suicidal per se, but he seems to not care much about being alive when he's overwhelmed by negative emotion. It's why I'm drawn towards this character so much, compared to the other Robins. He feels very strongly.
> 
> That said, that scene in UTRH film really gave it a stronger emotional punch than the original comics.


RHATO's Jason is pretty much set on keep living at any costs







This is why is so out of character for him to be so flippant about the possibility of his actions getting the WAR kids killed during Robin War. 

The only time he has shown suicidal tendencies is on the Future's End one shot, where that line you mentions come from. And even then, is heavily implied the only reason he's suicidal is due him losing Roy and Kori's friendship.

----------


## G-Potion

> On Meta themed stories tho, I wouldn`t mind Jason going 4th Wall on readers. Would that feel too off for you guys?


Nah, bring it on.  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

Let me just clarify my statement a little more, I didn't mean to imply something different. When I mention the suicidal aspect I am ONLY referring to the UTRH animated film which featured Jasons plan of forcing Bruce to kill the Joker failing, and as such resigns himself to sit and await his death as he sets off the bomb within the building, (implying that he will take out the Joker and himself in one go). Despite all his talk of trying to save Gotham and being the better Batman, his greatest desire was still his own closure.

And despite the continuity differences between the comic and the film, I thought the character on both a meta level and psychological level was left with a big question mark of why he is even around anymore? What is his purpose now?

Its kinda why it was exciting to see that maybe the more lost, longing and apathetic mentality may be perhaps slightly touched upon in rhato rebirth in what appears to be a journey with elements self discovery, or at least I hope it is.




> Jason is a character with a sense of misplace. He doesn`t really feel home necessarily anywhere and his death was the cutting of that linear narrative.


You worded it much better than I.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> RHATO's Jason is pretty much set on keep living at any costs
> 
> 
> 
> This is why is so out of character for him to be so flippant about the possibility of his actions getting the WAR kids killed during Robin War. 
> 
> The only time he has shown suicidal tendencies is on the Future's End one shot, where that line you mentions come from. And even then, is heavily implied the only reason he's suicidal is due him losing Roy and Kori's friendship.


Not disagree with you there. To make my point clear, I think he isn't in anyway looking for a way to die, but as UTRH film shows, when his emotion gets the best of him, he would no longer care about getting out alive or not. At the present though I think Jason isn't particularly joyful that he's alive, one reason being the sense of misplace that Aioros mentioned, but being a non-quitter like he is, he would fight to stay alive regardless.

Also, I was thinking about that line Jason said when he saw Bizarro in the tank.

----------


## RedBird

> On Meta themed stories tho, I wouldn`t mind Jason going 4th Wall on readers. Would that feel too off for you guys?


Not sure, are we talking full on deadpool 4th wall? Then no not really, I dont think I would like that direction.

However I thought Lobdell did a pretty great job of more subtly breaking the 4th wall in the final issue of Red Hood and Arsenal, with what was basically a callout against any of the people that found pleasure in the whole "voting situation", a _scathing_ callout delivered by none other than Jason himself.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not sure, are we talking full on deadpool 4th wall? Then no not really.
> 
> However I thought Lobdell did a pretty great job of more subtly breaking the 4th wall in the final issue of Red Hood and Arsenal, with what was basically a callout against any of the people that found pleasure in the whole "voting situation", a _scathing_ callout delivered by none other than Jason himself.


That was really one of the greatest ends for a series. And it followed a very natural development with Joker's Daughter, rather than happening just because.

----------


## G-Potion

Let's say if Jason trained with the All-Caste after the event of UTRH instead of before, do you guys think it would change anything?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Let me just clarify my statement a little more, I didn't mean to imply something different. When I mention the suicidal aspect I am ONLY referring to the UTRH animated film which featured Jasons plan of forcing Bruce to kill the Joker failing, and as such resigns himself to sit and await his death as he sets off the bomb within the building, (implying that he will take out the Joker and himself in one go). Despite all his talk of trying to save Gotham and being the better Batman, his greatest desire was still his own closure.
> 
> And despite the continuity differences between the comic and the film, I thought the character on both a meta level and psychological level was left with a big question mark of why he is even around anymore? What is his purpose now?
> 
> Its kinda why it was exciting to see that maybe the more lost, longing and apathetic mentality may be perhaps slightly touched upon in rhato rebirth in what appears to be a journey with elements self discovery, or at least I hope it is.





> Not disagree with you there. To make my point clear, I think he isn't in anyway looking for a way to die, but as UTRH film shows, when his emotion gets the best of him, he would no longer care about getting out alive or not. At the present though I think Jason isn't particularly joyful that he's alive, one reason being the sense of misplace that Aioros mentioned, but being a non-quitter like he is, he would fight to stay alive regardless.


Talking only about UTRH as a standalone story, yes, Jason was on path of self destruction. Looking to go down with both Joker and Bruce. This is of course is due Winnick never intending to do anything more Jason afterwards. 

However, Lobdell has made a point of changing Jason's mentality regarding death on the N52. As I mentioned before, Jason has been consistently characterized as someone that won't stop at anything to survive. And as he formed true bonds with other people, this mentality extended to them as well. This scene you mention 




> Also, I was thinking about that line Jason said when he saw Bizarro in the tank.


Is not really strong evidence to show Jason really feels undeserving of his second chance at life, as his later efforts to keep Bizarro safe from harm proved. In a way, the reason Jason has bonded with Bizarro is because he wants to offer him the support he lacked when he was resurrected.

----------


## G-Potion

> And despite the continuity differences between the comic and the film, I thought the character on both a meta level and psychological level was left with a big question mark of why he is even around anymore? What is his purpose now?


I think the journey Jason has had after UTRH in someways answers your question. His stints with the Challengers, as Nightwing, as Batman showed a lack of direction for Jason, in both character and meta senses. However, as bad as some of it might be, it gave Jason time to distant himself from Batman's "betrayal" and gradually found himself as a hero again. His friendship with Roy and Kori as well as the fight with the Untitled were just the last ingredients that he needed to leave his need for closure behind and move forward. He was Robin. At heart he's still a hero and that's his purpose.

----------


## Aioros22

> Not sure, are we talking full on deadpool 4th wall? Then no not really, I dont think I would like that direction.
> 
> However I thought Lobdell did a pretty great job of more subtly breaking the 4th wall in the final issue of Red Hood and Arsenal, with what was basically a callout against any of the people that found pleasure in the whole "voting situation", a _scathing_ callout delivered by none other than Jason himself.


I would lean in something more of that nature. Not full blown Looney Toons but something more straighforwardly normal.

----------


## Assam

dead siblings club.jpg

The "I'm too awesome to stay dead" Siblings.  

You ever realize that all three were killed either directly or indirectly by their moms?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> No because the white streak never had any relevant impact on Jason's characterization unlike Roy's hat.  The closest thing it got was the way Morrison used it to point out Jason as "damaged goods" whereas Lobdell (and surprisingly Tynion) used the hat to showcase Roy's personality via having different hats for every occasion, have Roy allude to the hat and what implied of him on his dialogue and the previously mentioned use as memento during Future's End.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't check the thread every single day, especially not now when most of the posts are just picture dumps.


Okay dude. Keep telling yourself that. The white streak has meaning, more so than Roy's hats. You just like to be the ultimate authority on Red Hood and anything written by Lobdell. You aren't. There are things that other writers have done that added to Jason that were good. So, there's no need to get defensive when somebody else likes something that the Almighty Scott Lobdell hasn't or won't do. Get over it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Okay dude. Keep telling yourself that. The white streak has meaning, more so than Roy's hats. You just like to be the ultimate authority on Red Hood and anything written by Lobdell. You aren't. There are things that other writers have done that added to Jason that were good. So, there's no need to get defensive when somebody else likes something that the Almighty Scott Lobdell hasn't or won't do. Get over it.


If you have arguments to sustain your reasoning then by all means share them with us. How exactly is the white streak more meaningful than Roy's hat? 

And I don't know if you have noticed but I'm not saying other writers haven't done a good work with Jason (I consider Countdown to be the highlight of Jason's appearances pre flashpoint) but is not my fault nearly none of those additions were carried over to the N52. On the N52 itself, the only writers that actually understood Jason besides Lobdell were Pak, Bermejo and surprisingly, Higgins. Everyone else simply went from mediocre to bad.

----------


## Aioros22

> dead siblings club.jpg
> 
> The "I'm too awesome to stay dead" Siblings.  
> 
> You ever realize that all three were killed either directly or indirectly by their moms?


One of those obvious in your face things that you don`t notice until someone shows it. 

How come writers haven`t explore more these sort of subdued connections between them?

----------


## Aioros22

_Recent tease for the Outlaws Annual_

https://www.instagram.com/tylerkirkhamart/

tylerkirkhamart
A scene from #Redhood and the outlaws annual I'm working on with @scottylobdell and @arfprianto! 
I'm super excited about this issue! Make sure your shop orders it! #jasontodd #artemis #bizarro

----------


## Aioros22

Gotham by Geeks ep 59 The Dark Knight 
#DKIII #Darkdays #Batwoman #supersons #batgirlBOP #batgirl #redhood

https://taylornetworkofpodcasts.com/...e-dark-knight/

----------


## Alycat

Is Bizarro naked in that pic? He looks very much like the Hulk right there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> _Recent tease for the Outlaws Annual_
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/tylerkirkhamart/
> 
> tylerkirkhamart
> A scene from #Redhood and the outlaws annual I'm working on with @scottylobdell and @arfprianto! 
> I'm super excited about this issue! Make sure your shop orders it! #jasontodd #artemis #bizarro


I wonder if this means we're back to the Nethers.

But see what I meant about good artists being able to differentiate Jason from his brothers? Kirkham's Jason looks so much younger and somewhat innocent (oddly enough) compared to his take on Dick.

----------


## Alycat

Thats actually why I dont like Kirkham's Dick so far. Maybe it was just the angle but his head looked huge and old. Like way too buff in general. But it may just have been the way that particular page looked.

----------


## Aioros22

> I wonder if this means we're back to the Nethers.
> 
> But see what I meant about good artists being able to differentiate Jason from his brothers? Kirkham's Jason looks so much younger and somewhat innocent (oddly enough) compared to his take on Dick.


And his face is a bit rounder than Dick`s but see, I don`t maintain that good artists can`t do it, merely that time restraints in comercial art makes it easier for artists to take the easier route. I don`t pick one choice over the other either, I view the white strand as something that can add points to the overall design and character if done smart so both aspects would be the ideal. 

The only off thing about the panel is Bizarro. I keep seeing Grey Hulk.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And his face is a bit rounder than Dick`s but see, I don`t maintain that good artists can`t do it, merely that time restraints in comercial art makes it easier for artists to take the easier route. I don`t pick one choice over the other either, I view the white strand as something that can add points to the overall design and character if done smart so both aspects would be the ideal. 
> 
> The only off thing about the panel is Bizarro. I keep seeing Grey Hulk.


Janin (as it was the specific case used as example) is not a very good artist due the way he leans too much on poser to do his art. That is why all of his characters look so similar. To not mention that time constraints are just a poor excuse overall. If an artist has to sacrifice detail to fit a schedule, there are plenty of elements to use instead of drawing clones. 

And again, what kind of points can the white streak add to Jason's design beyond, "it makes him look different"?

----------


## kaimaciel

Personally, I'm always happy when Jason is depicted as younger looking than Dick. Nightwing is older and should look older, though I guess with Jay's serious nature that can be difficult to portray without making him look like he's pouting.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Personally, I'm always happy when Jason is depicted as younger looking than Dick. Nightwing is older and should look older, though I guess with Jay's serious nature that can be difficult to portray without making him look like he's pouting.


Kirkham seems to be playing the difference on ages on his art since not only Jason but also Artemis and Bizarro look noticeable younger compared with Soy's take.

----------


## Alycat

The age thing and art is kinda weird cause they are only maybe 3 to 4 years apart now. Also there is that thing where Jason just looks super serious alot so yeah he looks older than he is a lot.Hopefully hes also taller though. Seriously hate how many artists forget that.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Personally, I'm always happy when Jason is depicted as younger looking than Dick. Nightwing is older and should look older, though I guess with Jay's serious nature that can be difficult to portray without making him look like he's pouting.


by what 3 years at the most
and hes bigger thne dick

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Take a closer look at the leftmost side

----------


## G-Potion

> Take a closer look at the leftmost side


Welp he's really here. Is this enhancement from the source image?

----------


## Godlike13

No, that's obviously some fan made thing with various images of characters cropped from other works.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The first picture is from the new movie intro, thw second one is a reconstruction of it using art from different sources to illustrate what characters are present on the intro

----------


## SpentShrimp

The art for annual looks great. I still think Jim Lee has the best drawn version of Jason to date, but this is Jim Lee.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> If you have arguments to sustain your reasoning then by all means share them with us. How exactly is the white streak more meaningful than Roy's hat? 
> 
> And I don't know if you have noticed but I'm not saying other writers haven't done a good work with Jason (I consider Countdown to be the highlight of Jason's appearances pre flashpoint) but is not my fault nearly none of those additions were carried over to the N52. On the N52 itself, the only writers that actually understood Jason besides Lobdell were Pak, Bermejo and surprisingly, Higgins. Everyone else simply went from mediocre to bad.


You're using the exact same arguments for Roy's hat that are used for Jason's white streak. How can you not see this?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You're using the exact same arguments for Roy's hat that are used for Jason's white streak. How can you not see this?


I pointed specific examples of the way the hat was used as a shorthand to convey Roy's personality and dynamic with Jason by the writers but I still haven't been pointed out of examples where the streak was used as something beyond a cosmetic addition besides the throwaway line during "Revenge of the Red Hood"

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I pointed specific examples of the way the hat was used as a shorthand to convey Roy's personality and dynamic with Jason by the writers but I still haven't been pointed out of examples where the streak was used as something beyond a cosmetic addition besides the throwaway line during "Revenge of the Red Hood"


Just as the white streak is shorthand to convey a huge event in Jason's life. Once established, it doesn't need to be brought up all the time, unless brought up by a new interaction.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I wonder if this means we're back to the Nethers.
> 
> But see what I meant about good artists being able to differentiate Jason from his brothers? Kirkham's Jason looks so much younger and somewhat innocent (oddly enough) compared to his take on Dick.


Which is why I'm not very fond of his take on Jason, or Artemis. They aren't supposed to look innocent, and heroic, like some of their lighter counterparts. Especially Jason. Dick is the fun, overly nice, jokester, so he needs to look younger/innocent, simply because that how he comes across. I get drawing Jason younger, because he is younger, but he's also supposed to look rough around the edges, cynical (rather than Bruce's stoic), and a little devil may cry-ish. However, I don't mind him being drawn bulkier, as it sort of represents his mental durability in physical form, and it can come of as a play on him looking like a thug, which further serves to show how different he is from his "brothers" and Bruce.

----------


## Aahz

> by what 3 years at the most


I hope they use rebirth to bring it back to the original 6-8 years.




> and hes bigger thne dick


Which is iirc never really shown in the comics.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Just as the white streak is shorthand to convey a huge event in Jason's life. Once established, it doesn't need to be brought up all the time, unless brought up by a new interaction.


Ok, but when has it been used like that. 

Jim Lee just added the streak because it looked cool. Shane Davis only used it on the final pages of the annual to avoid continuity issues (most notably, there's _no_ streak when he rises from the pit) and Phillip Tan only used it on Morrison's instruction to single out Jason as damaged goods, and even then, the red hair was more important for Morrison's narrative.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I hope they use rebirth to bring it back to the original 6-8 years.
> 
> Which is iirc never really shown in the comics.


I think it should be canon; giving Jason a bulkier, but shorter, physique to Dick. 

Also, differentiate his fighting style from the successful Robins, while they're at it. More about a sort of savage precision, positioning, body reading, some cheating/improve and countering. Yeah, he talks, but when he fights, he tries to end it as quickly as possible; similarly to Deathstroke's brutal efficiency, or a John Wick.

----------


## Aahz

> I think it should be canon; giving Jason a bulkier, but shorter, physique to Jason.


At least by the official stats jason is the tallest and haviest of the Robins. But Artists usually ignore it and make him and Dick the same hight and build when they are in the same book.

----------


## Alycat

I understand making Dick bulkier after his Batman time, but geez that was a while ago. Also I honestly dont want the original years difference back. Im fine with Dick and Jaskn and Tim being much closer in age.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That exchange was legitimately great. Wish Jason had  more like that.

----------


## RedBird

> Is Bizarro naked in that pic? He looks very much like the Hulk right there.


Looks like he just has shorts on. Theres quite a few strange elements in this image that makes me think they are somewhat ill prepared, ambushed or using espionage. Jason is in a button up and missing his helmet, (its possibly in that backpack he has on) and Artemis is missing her headgear.

On the topic of faces, I always thought Jasons face was actually similar to Bruces. I mean of course every single male superhero has the nice cheekbones and jawline going on, but Dicks face always seemed slighter wider cheekbones to Bruces, appearing shorter in length with much more emphasis to the square jut in his jaw, Jim Lee seems to articulate that difference quite well between the three of them. Whilst both Jason and Bruce have the more classically tall face, high cheekbone, shovel angled jawline etc you guys get the point. Also when I say tall, I don't mean horselike :P rather just in comparison to Dicks facial structure.

Also that image of Dick from Kirkham most certainly appears large from the angle, the camera is literally looking UP at Dick in that shot, of course his jaw looks big.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Looks like he just has shorts on. Theres quite a few strange elements in this image that makes me think they are somewhat ill prepared, ambushed or using espionage. Jason is in a button up and missing his helmet, (its possibly in that backpack he has on) and Artemis is missing her headgear.


Is not a button up, he just zipped up his jacket. The lack of his helmet and Artemis' headgear might be simply because they had to swim to wherever they are in the last panel.

----------


## darkseidpwns

No preview yet? Really looking forward to the upcoming arc

----------


## RedBird

> Is not a button up, he just zipped up his jacket.


Well I mean in all fairness, you can't really zip up a jacket that buttons up apparently.
Since when did his jacket have buttons instead of a zip, AND have two front chest pockets? I don't think it has been depicted that way in rebirth. Strange.




> The lack of his helmet and Artemis' headgear might be simply because they had to swim to wherever they are in the last panel.


Well, Jason has swam with his helmet on before, so you can see why I thought his helmet less state was a clue into the outlaws predicament of that panel, also Artemis is an amazon that wields a giant axe easily, I didnt think her head gear would get in the way of swimming. Not that any of this matters I suppose, its all speculation till the issue is out, hell, perhaps the artist simply took some liberties for the sake of getting to draw our heroes pretty pretty faces with no obstruction. :P

----------


## G-Potion

More Red Hood from Tyler Kirkham

----------


## G-Potion

Can't find source yet.

----------


## G-Potion

These guys....  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

> More Red Hood from Tyler Kirkham


I saw that earlier today and confused it for being a panel from the dc trinity crossover, only because of whatever is happening to his chest plate there. It kinda looked like something was bursting out, or making its way in, as was depicted in the crossover cover art. I wonder whats actually happening.

----------


## dietrich

Such a cutie

----------


## G-Potion

> I saw that earlier today and confused it for being a panel from the dc trinity crossover, only because of whatever is happening to his chest plate there. It kinda looked like something was bursting out, or making its way in, as was depicted in the crossover cover art. I wonder whats actually happening.


Tyler is working on the annual so I doubt it has anything to do with the thing in Trinity. Unless he stays for more than just the annual which wouldn't be a stretch, considering Soy isn't in the solicit for #14.

----------


## G-Potion

Worth following to see how the final product comes out.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Nice hood design!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Ok, but when has it been used like that. 
> 
> Jim Lee just added the streak because it looked cool. Shane Davis only used it on the final pages of the annual to avoid continuity issues (most notably, there's _no_ streak when he rises from the pit) and Phillip Tan only used it on Morrison's instruction to single out Jason as damaged goods, and even then, the red hair was more important for Morrison's narrative.


It can be brought back and used for that purpose.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I saw that earlier today and confused it for being a panel from the dc trinity crossover, only because of whatever is happening to his chest plate there. It kinda looked like something was bursting out, or making its way in, as was depicted in the crossover cover art. I wonder whats actually happening.


Probably someone is shooting Jason with some kind of beam.




> It can be brought back and used for that purpose.


Not arguing that but you have to agree is very different to say it has _already_ been used like that unlike Roy's hat.

----------


## Alycat

Thinking about the annual, there sure is a lot of evil traveling circuses around. Wonder if they have to do undercover shenanigans. That pic of Jason swimming didnt look like his jacket.

----------


## Caivu

KGBeast, from the annual:

Screenshot_20170709-161321.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

KGB beast uh?

I'm surprised they let Lobdell use him so soon after Snyder.

EDIT:



By the way, if you want to get the full resolution picture from Instagram posts, open the link on Chrome right click on the picture>inspect, than just look for the link with the picture itself

----------


## G-Potion

> KGBeast, from the annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170709-161321.jpg


This should please Aioros22. Deacon Blackfire is next hopefully.

----------


## RedBird

KGBeast Nice, good to see Jason interacting with enemies/characters from his time as Robin. I do love when Lobdell throws in things easter eggs from post crisis, anywhere from Ma Gunn, to the acknowledgment from Superman of _'for the man who has everything'_ arc.




> Deacon Blackfire is next hopefully.


AND YES, theres another good one!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Probably someone is shooting Jason with some kind of beam.
> 
> 
> 
> Not arguing that but you have to agree is very different to say it has _already_ been used like that unlike Roy's hat.


But it has been used for that purpose.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But it has been used for that purpose.


Tell me where then

----------


## Caivu

More from the annual:

Screenshot_20170711-001810.jpg

----------


## Alycat

> More from the annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170711-001810.jpg


Looks like Artemis laughing at something, and is that Dick and Jason fighting?

----------


## Tigrex-22

I think he is fighting Bruce in a flashback and Artemis laughts about Jason telling her that.

----------


## Alycat

> I think he is fighting Bruce in a flashback and Artemis laughts about Jason telling her that.


I think it's Dick since the annual is about the two and checking his Instagram it says Boys will be Boys. Don't know why he couldn't put on pants for that though, but I'm glad we are getting flashbacks.

----------


## G-Potion

I guess Sub Zero really wants Jason to join the Lin Kuei.

----------


## Tigrex-22

> I think it's Dick since the annual is about the two and checking his Instagram it says Boys will be Boys. Don't know why he couldn't put on pants for that though, but I'm glad we are getting flashbacks.


I did not look up the instagram, when I wrote this. But now I also it's Dick and not Bruce.

----------


## kaimaciel

> More from the annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170711-001810.jpg


Dick is fighting in his underwear, of course  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

> Dick is fighting in his underwear, of course


That's the funniest part. You guys couldn't wait till You both had pants on instead of one guy in underwear and the other wearing armor? Poor Alfred.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What makes it confusing is that Kirkham didn't properly draw Jason's Robin costume



Is missing the "boomerangs" on the thighs and the weird circles on the gloves. The only reason I realized it was Jason as Robin was because Jason has a proper belt unlike Dick's costume.

----------


## Alycat

Maybe it isn't finished? lso the way Jason is drawn makes it look like he's trying to throw Dick.

----------


## pansy

> Dick is fighting in his underwear, of course


Alfred is wondering where he went wrong with these children.

----------


## kaimaciel

Considering the Injustice 2 comics and how it becomes more and more obvious that the fake Batman will be Jason, I have to admit I'm disappointed. The angry and murderous Jason Todd was a staple of the Pre New 52 and it's been done to death, even on 2015 Arkham Knight. It would be refreshing to see Jason portrayed as an ally (even a reluctant one while still doing his thing) to Batman like in the actual DLC from Injustice 2 than the one we're seeing in the comic. 

But who knows? If Jason really is the fake Batman, maybe he'll have a change of heart regarding both Ra's and Superman's methods. I really wished they would do something different, especially since the role of the former Robin turning against Batman is already taken by Damian in this universe.

----------


## yohyoi

Damian and Jason can finally bond. They could compare how much they hate Bruce. They could commit a mass murdering killing spree next. And then end the day by calling themselves Nightwing. Bruce would be disappointed but it would read like a funny sitcom.

----------


## RedBird

> Looks like Artemis laughing at something, and is that Dick and Jason fighting?


Yeah confirmed flashback of Dick and Jason fighting.

----------


## Aioros22

> Looks like Artemis laughing at something, and is that Dick and Jason fighting?


The Annual is about Jason and Dick`s relationship, so I`m banking on the Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

> Considering the Injustice 2 comics and how it becomes more and more obvious that the fake Batman will be Jason, I have to admit I'm disappointed. The angry and murderous Jason Todd was a staple of the* Pre New 52* and it's been done to death, even on *2015 Arkham Knight.* It would be refreshing to see Jason portrayed as an ally (even a reluctant one while still doing his thing) to Batman like in the actual DLC from Injustice 2 than the one we're seeing in the comic. 
> 
> But who knows? If Jason really is the fake Batman, maybe he'll have a change of heart regarding both Ra's and Superman's methods. I really wished they would do something different, especially since the role of the former Robin turning against Batman is already taken by Damian in this universe.


It shouldn`t surprise anyone. It`s just different shades and narrative lines of the same plot in that time of his life that always threads him in taking the Red Hood identity. In one way, that`s good that they managed to give us so many threads around the iconic identity, as if, in most universes Jason is destined to become the Red Hood. It`s usually in the ones where he may not die or was previously taken by Batman where he doesn`t (Flashpoint: Paradox). 

At the very least they aren`t simply rehashing the same thing over and over.

----------


## Aioros22

> KGBeast Nice, good to see Jason interacting with enemies/characters from his time as Robin. I do love when Lobdell throws in things easter eggs from post crisis, anywhere from Ma Gunn, to the acknowledgment from Superman of _'for the man who has everything'_ arc.
> 
> 
> 
> AND YES, theres another good one!


As expected: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee  :Big Grin:  :Big Grin: 

Finally, Jason interacting with iconic villains of his publishing era. What took them so long?! Totally expecting Loedbell to use Deacon Blackfire along the road.

----------


## Aioros22

> I guess Sub Zero really wants Jason to join the Lin Kuei


They`ve done a great job with these two interacting. Sub Zero wanting Jason to join is a clear shotout to Jason having learned under Assassin guilds before (All-Caste, LOA). 

Didn`t seem obvious at first but it just makes sense. Love it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Damian and Jason can finally bond. They could compare how much they hate Bruce. They could commit a mass murdering killing spree next. And then end the day by calling themselves Nightwing. Bruce would be disappointed but it would read like a funny sitcom.


And that`s likely how we get New World Order.

----------


## RedBird

> It shouldn`t surprise anyone. It`s just different shades and narrative lines of the same plot in that time of his life that always threads him in taking the Red Hood identity. In one way, that`s good that they managed to give us so many threads around the iconic identity, as if, in most universes Jason is destined to become the Red Hood. It`s usually in the ones where he may not die or was previously taken by Batman where he doesn`t (Flashpoint: Paradox). 
> 
> At the very least they aren`t simply rehashing the same thing over and over.


I dont really mind the evil batman Jason thing myself, if they are taking an evil route they may as well have fun with it. 

However, the only thing that I'm somewhat fearing is Jason becoming some kind of plot device to mend Bruce and Damians relationship by standing out as an extreme example on the opposite side of the spectrum, rather than having fun with Jason as a character. After that issue featuring Damians time as Robin, which was actually really nice, although felt strangely out of place in this overall story and universe, it makes me suspect that there may be plans for a redemption arc for Damian, which would make Jasons character as some kind of 'palpatine' stand in? You know, the super evil character off to the side supporting Damians rage, till of course Damian finally makes a stand and rejects the 'dark side' :P. The role may fall to his mother as well, but considering the connection of having Damian and Jason be brothers, I can see the writing creating a contrast between them. As a form of storytelling I understand why its used, but its a pet peeve for me since that kinda writing depicting Jason in a bad light SPECIFICALLY to elevate another character has already occurred too many times during post crisis, even when he was nothing but a corpse.

This is all hypothetical of course, its with the assumption that it is him and although all the signs point to it being a YES, I wonder if the writers are dragging out the reveal because they have a double plot twist in mind where, dun dun dun, its actually someone else. I mean, Bruce doesnt have to know, but surely you should let the audience in on the fun if you are going the obvious route right? Trying to pretend it was a huge secret was the same mistake rocksteady did with Arkham Knight.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s pretty much the only fear I have for the hypotetical JasonBatman in Injustice but we can`t disregard him being controlled by Grood (not sure that is still in play, I have to play catch up with the last two issues). Surprisingly, Injustice has been one of the better written titles about with the DCU world building and with the reception he had with the character released in the game, I`m not buying much that they will simply plot device him. 

In fact, that`s probably Injustice`s biggest thing; they don`t tend to shit on characters relevancy much and tend to have cool stuff for most of them, let alone the ones who get popular. If Jason is indeed used to bridge Damian and Bruce`s redemption you will bet they will do something big with him as well on the turnround. As for AK, it`s  abit of a double edge sword. Comic fans knew from the beginning (and if they didn`t, they flat out suspected it) but new audiences didn`t. They played the game knowing the franchise at large because other media and got to have this baggage ilustrated for them. 

Technically, _Arkham Knight_ was brand new  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

For what is worth, Taylor should've been working towards Jason assuming the Red Hood identity and the ideology he has in the game.

----------


## adrikito

The outlaws:

Outlaws.jpg

----------


## Aahz

I just skipped through the last issues of Injustice, but it didn't really looked like Fake Batman and and Damians sister got much attention, sofar Damian was the one in the focus of the LoA-plot.

Btw. even if we go with the Winick version of Jason it seems odd with what their suicide squad did in the last issue.

----------


## RedBird

> Surprisingly, Injustice has been one of the better written titles about with the DCU world building and with the reception he had with the character released in the game, I`m not buying much that they will simply plot device him.


Thats true, considering how long its gone on, I'm impressed it has remained at least somewhat entertaining, and your right they the comic does tend to flesh out a lot of characters, some I never expected to be given such depth.





> Technically, _Arkham Knight_ was brand new


Oh you.  :Wink: 

I understand the desire to introduce new audiences to the characters, I just feel as though they ultimately concentrated on the wrong aspect of the UTRH storyline when they were re imagining it. Consider the fact that it is halfway through the original movie that we as the audience are straight up given dna evidence that the Red Hood is Jason Todd. His identity right then and there is confirmed. Then once this information is given, the next question on anyones mind would be. How? To which the film explains by having Batman investigate and talk with Ras about Jasons resurrection. 

The reveal is done early, whereas BAK kept the reveal almost to the end of the game, clearly it was intended to be a surprise in some way, (or at least to some viewers). Granted BAK was clever by having the information of Jasons demise and torture being elements of a hallucination, (instead of UTRH movie which has the DITF arc at the beginning as a clear foreshadow of the films events, hence why they dont drag out the reveal) its not the first time Batman has hallucinated tragedies from his life, perhaps a gamer with fresh eyes wouldnt see the connection? But I'm sure most (even new people) would suspect by then since we already know that the AK knows Batman, and has a grudge against him. And so far, NO other character has been brought up in the plot as a suspect in question that would KNOW Batman. They tried to be subtle but I think the story beats still show through the seams. The reveal scene was clearly meant to be a secret because they built their 'impactful' moment around it, all the tension was concentrated in this one scene, which I feel was a mistake. I mean, despite knowing Jasons identity in UTRH, it does not take away from the strength or importance of the scene when he does show his face to Bruce and confirm it. The latter half of the movie is all about understanding why the tragedy occurred, purposefully rebuilding the tension, so that when the characters confront each other its all the more emotional knowing and understanding why, BAK left all that knowledge too late, giving the narrative pacing issues. 

And good god I just realised how much I ranted about AK, I'm so sorry...Feel free to ignore this.

----------


## G-Potion

> For what is worth, Taylor should've been working towards Jason assuming the Red Hood identity and the ideology he has in the game.


Ideally. Just hope he hasn't gone too far before getting to that stage.

----------


## G-Potion

> The outlaws:
> 
> Outlaws.jpg


That is cute.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/884567695638659072

You bastardsssss :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/...y-in-progress/




jtsentertainment.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22

[IMG]https://i.*****.com/vi/tCgDFlhueQ8/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]




http://anthonyscustoms.webs.com/apps...toid=174454216

----------


## Aioros22

http://bloodofkittens.com/wargamingh...todd-red-hood/


http://www.toymania.com/customcorner/cc16/robins.shtml


 jedd-the-jedi.deviantart.com

----------


## SpentShrimp

You said it yourself. Morrison's Batman and Robin

----------


## SpentShrimp

Who cares?

----------


## Aioros22

Who you`re talking to  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

Jason was so expressive in this chapter of RHaTO  :Frown:   Soy is doing an excellent Job on the book.

----------


## G-Potion

Rude fan is rude but the man has spoken.

----------


## G-Potion

Team must feel very accomplished right now.

----------


## Alycat

> Rude fan is rude but the man has spoken.


Pff I don't believe him. Its okay Lobdell, I support it.

----------


## G-Potion

Medieval Red Hood

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You said it yourself. Morrison's Batman and Robin


I also mentioned it was an afterthought. The focus was the fact he was going bald due dyeing his hair black. And you know what is the most interesting thing? _The streak is only seen on another panel afterwards_. On the remaining on screen time of Jason without his helmet, *there's no streak.*

And is not a colorist error because that remained on the TP.





> Rude fan is rude but the man has spoken.


Suuuuuuuuuuure, we're the ones reading too much into it.

----------


## Aioros22

Man is playing his cards, he`s got evry right to do it. 

Maybe Jason and Artemis will be that Cheers/Moonlight kind of tension "will they, will they not" and then BAM! Ninja kiss and fandom goes "OOOOOOOO"

Micdrop, fellas.

----------


## Aioros22

What are your opinions about it tho? A bit of tension, romance or just fight buddies? In what way do you think that would add or take on the book?

----------


## Aioros22

Red Hood and The Outlaws 12 is one of the best of the series by far 
@ScottyLobdell @dextersoy 10/10 We tell you why:


http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...aws-12-review/

----------


## G-Potion

> What are your opinions about it tho? A bit of tension, romance or just fight buddies? In what way do you think that would add or take on the book?


I mean, they can be different things at different times would be the best. Them being officially a couple kinda limits the options a little bit. Not to say I won't like it, but give it enough time for other avenues to have been explored, and the romance itself well-earned. I still haven't had enough of Artemis treating Jason like she would a toddler though. It's funny in small doses.

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood fanart based on Soy's design, from https://lets-jam.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

I`m not against any romance but I`m in a similar boat. It needs to read earnest and we should know Artemis better instead of just going the easiest way out now. But I`m definatly not against Jason having an intimate relationship with someone who treats him like a toodler sometimes. I think that dinamic is so good, so gold, it works like a charm whether they`re just friends or more than that. 

But romance opens new territories..especially for Jason who tends to shut down his emotions the most and Artemis who doesn`t know how to act around someone she could pick and throw miles far ahead  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

I get why people might prefer them as friends, which I would be fine with too, but going into Jason is an asexual and Artemis is a lesbian as reasons why are bad. I dont even know where those came from.

----------


## RedBird

> I get why people might prefer them as friends, which I would be fine with too, but going into Jason is an asexual and Artemis is a lesbian as reasons why are bad. I dont even know where those came from.


Those are just people that are pushy about their own preferences. Besides we know for a fact that one of those is wrong according to the canon. Lobdell has already expressed that Artemis is someone who 'doesnt see gender', basically implying that she is bisexual (or pansexual). Long story short, there are no sexuality limitations to their romance.

Personally I think I prefer them as friends since the dynamic between them works much better that way, especially with Artemis constantly manhandling Jason like he is a child, it gives off more of a friend or sibling vibe. Also any tension between them has not appeared sexual in the least, intimate sure, but I don't quite get a sexual vibe from their conversations.

----------


## G-Potion

*Red Hood And The Outlaws #12 Sells Out. Is A Second Printing On The Way?*




> The idea that if you crunch the numbers you can find unappreciated talent whose work outperforms the appreciation that the employers and commissioners have for them. I think Red Hood And The Outlaws may have the potential to be one of those comic books.


Good news but also some sad truth in this. Wonder when DC will do something.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m with G. Any romance if it leads there, needs to be earned, not handled. Especially when it`s about two people that roll between shutting emotions down and not wanting to lose power dinamic.

----------


## G-Potion

Even BleedingCool is saying RHATO doesn't have enough promotion. Come on DC!!! The book has been excellent, Injustice Jason was requested the most and then trended the US. Give our boy (and Lobdell) some love!!  :Mad:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Red Hood And The Outlaws #12 Sells Out. Is A Second Printing On The Way?*
> 
> Good news but also some sad truth in this. Wonder when DC will do something.





> Even BleedingCool is saying RHATO doesn't have enough promotion. Come on DC!!! The book has been excellent, Injustice Jason was requested the most and then trended the US. Give our boy (and Lobdell) some love!!


This is a perfect time to flood DC's social media with petitions and showing of how much people love the Outlaws, with any luck it will make them change their minds and promote the book more. So, get those tweets coming people.

As for Jason and Artemis romance, I support it simply because is long overdue for Jason to have a significant romance. They've moved him from being an edgelord obsessed with vengeance, giving him a proper romantic interest is the next step, and Artemis being a fellow hero keeps her safe from the same kind of creative dead ends that took Isabel and Gabby away.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is a perfect time to flood DC's social media with petitions and showing of how much people love the Outlaws, with any luck it will make them change their minds and promote the book more. So, get those tweets coming people.


Done and done!

----------


## G-Potion

Spoiler of course. Review starts from 18:25.

----------


## G-Potion

> I`m with G. Any romance if it leads there, needs to be earned, not handled. Especially when it`s about two people that roll between shutting emotions down and not wanting to lose power dinamic.


Before we get to that point, I'd love for Jason and Essence relationship to be further explored as well.

----------


## G-Potion

Fan-made trailer for original RHATO.

----------


## dietrich

I don't think lack of advertising is the issue. Adverting generates interest Jason already has that in  droves. 
Jason is popular among the GA.
They know he is a DC comic character and they are aware that he has a book called RHATO. 
They went out their way to request him in Injustice. So they can just as easily go online or pop in a shop for his book. It's not difficult.

My point is not all fans read comics. Very few people do? 
Fans have different reasons for liking characters and liking a character/wanting them in a game or move doesn't mean you will read comicbook's about them.

That's just my take on it

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is less about giving him more exposure than to capitalize on the one that he already has. If the books where Jason stars have high sales numbers it makes more likely for him to become a priority for DC and for him to be promoted outside the comics. 

There's also the opposite, people who know Jason from the animated film or his  video game appearances but that aren't aware of the comic and who would gladly pick it up if they were.

And lastly, the book's creative team is just knocking it out of the park so is never a bad thing to get their efforts rewarded with better sales since not only they can grow  within the business it also ensures they will allowed to continue together longer.

----------


## Alycat

> Before we get to that point, I'd love for Jason and Essence relationship to be further explored as well.


Nah, Essence was boring. I wouldnt mind leaving that terribleness in the past.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think lack of advertising is the issue. Adverting generates interest Jason already has that in  droves. 
> Jason is popular among the GA.
> They know he is a DC comic character and they are aware that he has a book called RHATO. 
> They went out their way to request him in Injustice. So they can just as easily go online or pop in a shop for his book. It's not difficult.
> 
> My point is not all fans read comics. Very few people do? 
> Fans have different reasons for liking characters and liking a character/wanting them in a game or move doesn't mean you will read comicbook's about them.
> 
> That's just my take on it


You can say the same about Batman. He generates enough interest in all avenues so why keep promoting his comics? Point is, it _helps_. 

Yes not all gamers read comics. They like Jason because of the animated movie and Arkham Knight. So the advertisement is for existing comic readers and new ones, who might give this book a chance because of the high praises it gets. I know there are people who only want a Jason solo book, others haven't picked it up because they hated the N52 RHATO. I'm sure some promotion could change a few minds. 

Also Jason has been on the rise, but it wasn't because of DC. Why not give their own character a push?

----------


## dietrich

> Is less about giving him more exposure than to capitalize on the one that he already has. If the books where Jason stars have high sales numbers it makes more likely for him to become a priority for DC and for him to be promoted outside the comics. 
> 
> There's also the opposite, people who know Jason from the animated film or his  video game appearances but that aren't aware of the comic and who would gladly pick it up if they were.
> 
> And lastly, the book's creative team is just knocking it out of the park so is never a bad thing to get their efforts rewarded with better sales since not only they can grow  within the business it also ensures they will allowed to continue together longer.


I understand but my point is that the general non comic reading fans  who saw his movie, who asked for him in the Injustice and who played Arkham already know that Red Hood appears in a comic book. More adverts is just telling them something they already know and have known for a while.

Not all fans read comics is my point and no amount of advertising will change that. Superman is Super popular, moves a ton of merch but that is not reflected in his comic numbers.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nah, Essence was boring. I wouldnt mind leaving that terribleness in the past.


Nah she was intriguing when Lobdell wrote her. Tynion's Essence was more generic.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not all fans read comics is my point and no amount of advertising will change that. Superman is Super popular, moves a ton of merch but that is not reflected in his comic numbers.


How do you know if that numbers would stay the same or not without the advertisement? What is the purpose of doing it at all?

----------


## dietrich

> You can say the same about Batman. He generates enough interest in all avenues so why keep promoting his comics? Point is, it _helps_. 
> 
> Yes not all gamers read comics. They like Jason because of the animated movie and Arkham Knight. So the advertisement is for existing comic readers and new ones, who might give this book a chance because of the high praises it gets. I know there are people who only want a Jason solo book, others haven't picked it up because they hated the N52 RHATO. I'm sure some promotion could change a few minds. 
> 
> Also Jason has been on the rise, but it wasn't because of DC. Why not give their own character a push?


You ow I've never seen a Batman comic ad but then again I live in the UK or do you mean in ads like they have inside of comics?

This is what I mean the character has captured the public's imagination and hearts so technically they would go get the book if they wanted to read a comic.

----------


## G-Potion

> You ow I've never seen a Batman comic ad but then again I live in the UK or do you mean in ads like they have inside of comics?
> 
> This is what I mean the character has captured the public's imagination and hearts so technically they would go get the book if they wanted to read a comic.


Even in-comic ads, RHATO's is almost non-existent while the other titles still get them regularly. Other kinds of promotion like interviews and live panels are also very few for RHATO nowadays.

----------


## dietrich

> How do you know if that numbers would stay the same or not without the advertisement? What is the purpose of doing it at all?


I have zero guarantee just like I can't prove that it will. My point is fans are aware to the extent that they took to twitter to request him that's a a lot more hassle than picking a comic book.

----------


## Alycat

> Nah she was intriguing when Lobdell wrote her. Tynion's Essence was more generic.


Eh I still didn't  find her all that interesting tbh. That's probably why I like Jason and Artemis so much. Artemis has a personality. Heckk even Isabel was more interesting than Essence for the few seconds she was around. But yes Tynion did write her worse. Along with everything else.

----------


## G-Potion

> I have zero guarantee just like I can't prove that it will. My point is fans are aware to the extent that they took to twitter to request him that's a a lot more hassle than picking a comic book.


There are people like me who used to watch and play the hell out of things but the thought of reading comics about said things had never crossed my mind. It was only when I heard people talking about it that it even registered to me that comics was a thing. I believe with promotion and words of mouth, more people would be willing to try it out.

----------


## Aioros22

> I understand but my point is that the general non comic reading fans  who saw his movie, who asked for him in the Injustice and who played Arkham already know that Red Hood appears in a comic book. More adverts is just telling them something they already know and have known for a while.
> 
> Not all fans read comics is my point and no amount of advertising will change that. Superman is Super popular, moves a ton of merch but that is not reflected in his comic numbers.


Adverts would mainly target readers of others books who may not simply be acquainted with the character to bring the book to their pull lists. Comics, like everything, aren`t cheap considering most of the audience doesn`t just buy one book a month. 

The opposite is simply having no publicity whatsoever, which like the saying goes, the "no" is always guaranteed at first before any "yes".

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah, Essence was boring. I wouldnt mind leaving that terribleness in the past.


Nobody speaks ill of the All-Caste when I`m around. 

The rest of the day, maybe, mayeeebe.

----------


## Alycat

> Nobody speaks ill of the All-Caste when I`m around. 
> 
> The rest of the day, maybe, mayeeebe.


I'm sorry, I just hate them so much  :Frown:  But seriously Essence is a wet fart  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> I have zero guarantee just like I can't prove that it will. My point is fans are aware to the extent that they took to twitter to request him that's a a lot more hassle than picking a comic book.


Well...it`s less a hassle. A comic book costs Money. Going to Twitter doesn`t  :Big Grin: 

The audiences aren`t exactly the same either (gamers+animated) aren`t guarantee of a comic book audience - we all agree on that - mostly because the comic book genre brings a baggage with it that other media doesn`t. Someone who loves to play the character in Injustice will know the very basis of the character is not the audience that bothers to complain about continuity and this and that. You need to win those over, and this is very general in the take but you need to win them over and have them understand and enjoy what Comic book has to offer. Like, it`s different but it can be as exciting. 

That`s the crux to me. Someone of RATHO being at the offical launch of the character and distribute some free copies is a simple enough marketing trick. But companies at large don`t really care, the numbers are safe? People like it? Why bother? 

You should never have enough of a readership.

----------


## dietrich

> There are people like me who used to watch and play the hell out of things but the thought of reading comics about said things had never crossed my mind. It was only when I heard people talking about it that it even registered to me that comics was a thing. I believe with promotion and words of mouth, more people would be willing to try it out.


I hope more people do get into it because RHATO really is one of the best books coming out right now.
This new team is the magic formula and the writing has been ridiculously on point.

----------


## Aahz

I think one big problem is that they don't really made effords to get more comic book readers to get invested in the character, they didn't really do a good follow up for the Under Red Hood Story, then turned him into a villain in BFC, and never did a proper redemption arc or reintroduction into the Batfamily once the new 52 started. (And I allready wrote enough about his poor treatment in the current crossovers).

They did a much better job with Damian, by building him slowly up in the pages of the popular Batman titles untill he was big enough to carry books.


And the thing is not many people make the transition from movies and games to comics, if thy really would like to profit from that audience they put him in more games, movies and TV shows.
I mean look for examples at Guardians of the Galaxy, the movies were a huge succsess, but their series is not doing that great and all the spin off titles they had iirc really poor sales.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think one big problem is that they don't really made effords to get more comic book readers to get invested in the character, they didn't really do a good follow up for the Under Red Hood Story, then turned him into a villain in BFC, and never did a proper redemption arc or reintroduction into the Batfamily once the new 52 started. (And I allready wrote enough about his poor treatment in the current crossovers).
> 
> They did a much better job with Damian, by building him slowly up in the pages of the popular Batman titles untill he was big enough to carry books.


They didn't have a clear direction for Jason after UTRH and thus, they were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. It was only until the N52 that they settled on what direction would Jason take. And honestly I don't why are you saying he didn't got a proper reintroduction to the Batfamily when _that was the whole point of the Death of the Family Aftermath_

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, I don`t agree with that last point either. Death of The Family aftermath, The fallout of Damian`s death, The Batman Inc finale, they all have that theme in common.

----------


## Aahz

> They didn't have a clear direction for Jason after UTRH and thus, they were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. It was only until the N52 that they settled on what direction would Jason take. And honestly I don't why are you saying he didn't got a proper reintroduction to the Batfamily when _that was the whole point of the Death of the Family Aftermath_


But this aftermath was in his own book, so only the people who allready read RHatO read it, they should have given him more focus in they main event. 

And it was anyway a complete mess since there was no coordination between RHatO, DotF and Batman Inc.

----------


## Aioros22

Talking about coordination is one thing, that`s editorial maping. Talking about whether it happen or not is another. 

What I`m getting from you is that it wasn`t up to your taste, which is valid but it happened and messy as it could be Loedbell and co all took that thematic on, they didn`t ignore it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But this aftermath was in his own book, so only the people who allready read RHatO read it, they should have given him more focus in they main event. 
> 
> And it was anyway a complete mess since there was no coordination between RHatO, DotF and Batman Inc.


Why is the story about Jason mending bridges with Bruce shouldn't be on Jason's own book? DOTF was Bruce's story, not Jason. 

And the issue were the actual reintroduction happened (#18) was actually the second and last issue on Jason's entire N52 run to get a second printing, so more people than RHATO regulars read it. 

As for the coordination, while it was an issue is not one that you can blame on Lobdell. He did anything on his power to include all of them within his narrative.

----------


## Alycat

> But this aftermath was in his own book, so only the people who allready read RHatO read it, they should have given him more focus in they main event. 
> 
> And it was anyway a complete mess since there was no coordination between RHatO, DotF and Batman Inc.


Becuase the main event was focused on  Bruce, not Bruce and Jason specifically. It wouldnt fit in the main book imo.

----------


## Alycat

Also hope the team is happy with the last issue. It was so good.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Becuase the main event was focused on  Bruce, not Bruce and Jason specifically. It wouldnt fit in the main book imo.


That said, word on street is that Snyder wanted to end DOTF with Joker burning off Jason's face on RHATO to give his buddy Tynion a bump on his debut as solo writer.

----------


## Alycat

> That said, word on street is that Snyder wanted to end DOTF with Joker burning off Jason's face on RHATO to give his buddy Tynion a bump on his debut as solo writer.


 I remember those rumors.That would've been awful.

----------


## Aioros22

Always a friendly reminder that It`s not only in _Last Crusade_ and flashbacks that Jason was given good rapport on the role..

----------


## Aioros22

_Very emotional_...hmmmz  :Cool:  I can think of something.

----------


## Aahz

> Becuase the main event was focused on  Bruce, not Bruce and Jason specifically.


Thats exactly the problem, why do they do it in an event where Jason is not a main character?

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think it was as bad as you make it sound. Jason was the main character in the Aftermath on his own book, had an issue dedicated to him and Bruce in Tomasi`s Fallout and was a main character in the INC Finale. Despite Damian`s death overlapping DOTF because of messy Office maping, writers still gave it issue time.

----------


## Aioros22

Now, you didn`t like it and that`s certainly in your right. It was kind of messy, but what was published dealt with the theme and personally I found it well done. I`m also forgetting the bits in JL during the same period between Jason and Alfred.

----------


## Alycat

> Thats exactly the problem, why do they do it in an event where Jason is not a main character?


Because events are good game changers. Didn't everyone but Tim get a change after that?

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Immortal Weapon

I'm having a blast seeing Sonic Fox dominate Evo with Jason. His play with Jason is so damn oppressive.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm having a blast seeing Sonic Fox dominate Evo with Jason. His play with Jason is so damn oppressive.


Me too. Stayed up all night for this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Disappointed at him dropping Jason after its first loss though

----------


## Immortal Weapon

Sonic Fox got taken out. It was still great to see Jason and Damien in the top 8.

----------


## G-Potion

Hope he keeps on using Jason.  It was great showing.

----------


## Aahz

> I don`t think it was as bad as you make it sound. Jason was the main character in the Aftermath on his own book, had an issue dedicated to him and Bruce in Tomasi`s Fallout and was a main character in the INC Finale.


But even that got really over shadowed by what else was going on.

I think it would have worked way better if the had made a more Jason focused storyline for that.

----------


## Aahz

I found some vidoes that show Jason's Epic Gear Sets. The one the looks best imo is the "Armor or the All-Cast", the Helmet from the "Outlaw" looks only good with an additional hood and I don't like the Helmet and and the missing leather jacket of "Crimson Vendetta".

The elements I really liked from the gear I have seen sofar are the Hood and the Legs with the red stripe, the shoulder armour and shaders that stick with the colours  red, back and grey (or maybe dark blue), I not a fan of the brown leather jacket.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

> But even that got really over shadowed by what else was going on.
> 
> I think it would have worked way better if the had made a more Jason focused storyline for that.


How overshadowed was he if I could easily come up with examples? But if you`re pointing out how you wanted all in one big storyline, sure, that`s ideal, all the pieces were a bit scattered - but they were there!

Great vídeos too, the All-Caste Armor is certainly in my top 5 but  sure as heck love the jacket  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

I wouldn`t mind an All-Caste armor design for Jason for a special situation. In fact...make use of that Soy`s design for the effect!

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## TheSupernaut

So I've been writing an outline for a Jason Todd fanfic and wanted to make Rose Wilson the female lead. But I was wondering if whether or not Jay would date someone who kills for money. What do you guys think?

----------


## Aioros22

There`s pages/scans of it in the thread but the answer is seemingly yes. It was clearly implied throught dialogue at the end of the Loedbell`s first RATHO run that Jason and Rose had a thing. There`s no especifics about it or dirty details, tho. I think Jason being who he is accepts the grey morality when it comes to Money. He`s not been above in living the mercenary life after all. Money isn`t the issue, the sort of contracts you take and what you do with it likely would. 

As in, taking a hit on a dictator? He wouldn`t care much to argue against. Taking a hit to smuggle a H-bomb or protect some slave guild? He totally would and has. Different things.

----------


## Assam

> So I've been writing an outline for a Jason Todd fanfic and wanted to make Rose Wilson the female lead. But I was wondering if whether or not Jay would date someone who kills for money. What do you guys think?


Is killing for money what Rose is currently doing in the comics or just for your fic? If its in the comics, eww. Miller was just telling me how Priest has been writing Rose well so I certainly hope that's not the case. 

Either way, in answer to your question, no, I don't believe Jason would date a mercenary if they're killing innocent people. If they're just taking out the monsters of the world, no, he wouldn't have a problem.  Also, even leaving personal biases aside, I also think the only version of Rose which would be a good match for Jason is Pre-Ravager Rose. (At least Pre-Flashpoint. Again, I know NOTHING about Priest's Rose.)

----------


## Aioros22

For what is worth, much of merc`s work isn`t being paid to kill ordinary joes (at leats in fiction...I wouldn`t know in real life) but I haven`t 100% following Priest`s run (and my absolute favorite character is Joseph over everyone else, anyhow). The only time it was hinted they have had a thing was in the New52 in Loedbell`s final two part of Red Hood and the Outlaws original run before Tynion took over.

----------


## RedBird

> For what is worth, much of merc`s work isn`t being paid to kill ordinary joes (at leats in fiction...I wouldn`t know in real life) but I haven`t 100% following Priest`s run (and my absolute favorite character is Joseph over everyone else, anyhow). The only time it was hinted they have had a thing was in the New52 in Loedbell`s final two part of Red Hood and the Outlaws original run before Tynion took over.


Before Tynion? Wasn't the relationship implications within like the last few issues of Rhato v1 before it ended all together?

----------


## Godlike13

Priest pretty much threw out everything the New 52 did regarding Rose prior to his run.

----------


## Aioros22

> Before Tynion? Wasn't the relationship implications within like the last few issues of Rhato v1 before it ended all together?


I`m a known airhead. Yeah, after Tynion.

----------


## Aioros22

> Priest pretty much threw out everything the New 52 did regarding Rose prior to his run.


That may be the case, I don`t really follow Rose to be honest. 

Is Nigthwing having a hand in her training a Rebirth exclusive?

----------


## Alycat

You guys should read Deathstroke to see how good and complex Priest has written Rose and Joey. He also threw out that terrible crap Rose stuff in the N52. I think maybe go over that for an answer on Jason and Rose. Yes, she was trained by Nightwing now. That's a plot point.

----------


## Godlike13

> That may be the case, I don`t really follow Rose to be honest. 
> 
> Is Nigthwing having a hand in her training a Rebirth exclusive?


Slade had Nightwing train her a bit pre-Flashpoint too, but not like how Preist introduced it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #15
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by MIKE McKONE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“Bizarro Reborn” part two! As Batwoman and her team close in on the infamous Outlaws, Red Hood and Artemis must figure out what to do about Bizarro, whose new war on crime has taken a dark turn—is this the end of the Outlaws as we know them?
On sale OCTOBER 11 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+

----------


## Aahz

Did Rose pre flashpoint ever kill for money? She was iirc still a member of the Titans at the end of this continuity.

I didn't really read what they did with her directly after flashpoint when she was working for N.O.W.H.E.R.E. but at least in the current and the previous Deathstroke series she seemed still in line with her pre flashpoint characterisation.

----------


## Frontier

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #15
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “Bizarro Reborn” part two! As Batwoman and her team close in on the infamous Outlaws, Red Hood and Artemis must figure out what to do about Bizarro, whose new war on crime has taken a dark turn—is this the end of the Outlaws as we know them?
> On sale OCTOBER 11 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


Not how I expected the 'Tec team to interact with the wider Batfamily...

----------


## Caivu

This makes a lot more sense than Batwoman just going after Jason solo.

----------


## rev516

Why are they fighting again? It looks pointless.

----------


## Alycat

So did the Tec team not bother talking to Batman or something?

----------


## Caivu

> Why are they fighting again? It looks pointless.





> So did the Tec team not bother talking to Batman or something?


We don't know yet. There's been literally zero hint as to why they're after Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> We don't know yet. There's been literally zero hint as to why they're after Jason.


Well yeah I know we don't know. Just hoping that we get a good reason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

It might have to do with something Ma Gunn said in the most recent issue of RHATO about the Outlaws being international war criminals.

----------


## Alycat

> It might have to do with something Ma Gunn said in the most recent issue of RHATO about the Outlaws being international war criminals.


Good point. Although I till have my doubts since Batman would probably vouch for them. Which brings me to another thing, have Batwoman and Red Hood ever met? Does she know he's part of the family?

----------


## Assam

Its superhero tradition and we all know it. The teams are gonna fight and then team-up. We've seen this rodeo before, lets just hope the fighting is justified. 

Also, is it too much to hope for that after all these bloody years, Jason and Cass will be able to establish a dynamic? Probably.

----------


## Caivu

> Good point. Although I till have my doubts since Batman would probably vouch for them. Which brings me to another thing, have Batwoman and Red Hood ever met? Does she know he's part of the family?


They've met twice. First during Robin Rises when he, Batgirl, and Tim (IIRC) let her know that they'd be away for a while and that she was in charge of the city (along with Batwing). They also worked with Batgirl to shut down a Brazilian sweatshop early in Batman Eternal.

Jason liked her from the start, Kate thinks he's kind of an idiot (but they got along well enough in Brazil).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They've met twice. First during Robin Rises when he, Batgirl, and Tim (IIRC) let her know that they'd be away for a while and that she was in charge of the city (along with Batwing). They also worked with Batgirl to shut down a Brazilian sweatshop early in Batman Eternal.
> 
> Jason liked her from the start, Kate thinks he's kind of an idiot (but they got along well enough in Brazil).


Kate was military though so if she thought for a moment that Jason was somehow involved in war crimes she might feel it necessary to confront him about it. Its the only explanation that seems to fit barring some other reason as yet unexplained.

----------


## Alycat

> They've met twice. First during Robin Rises when he, Batgirl, and Tim (IIRC) let her know that they'd be away for a while and that she was in charge of the city (along with Batwing). They also worked with Batgirl to shut down a Brazilian sweatshop early in Batman Eternal.
> 
> Jason liked her from the start, Kate thinks he's kind of an idiot (but they got along well enough in Brazil).


Thanks, now I remember those!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Why are they fighting again? It looks pointless.


Did you read the issue summary?

----------


## RedBird

Phew! Glad to see Dexter Soy is still on art for this series and is just taking a break. I hope that means Gandini is still on rhato too, her colours really make his work pop.

----------


## G-Potion

> Phew! Glad to see Dexter Soy is still on art for this series and is just taking a break. I hope that means Gandini is still on rhato too, her colours really make his work pop.


The most important info on this solicit.  Very relieved rn.

----------


## Aioros22

Pretty explicit. Bizarro will revive (ala Superman but with Luthor you can never tell if it`s even the same) and grown up a tad. You had Bizarro as a child and now he`ll likely be a teenager waging war on crime. Whereas before his intents were pure as a child`s intents usually are, now his darker turn likely comes in with more baggage (as if dying and returning isn`t traumatic on its own). 

But yeah, Tec and Batwoman are after the Outlaws because of Bizarro. He`s a force of natural and more dangerous now.

----------


## G-Potion

*TRINITY #14*
Written by ROB WILLIAMS
Art by V KEN MARION and RAY McCARTHY
Cover by TONY S. DANIEL and DANNY MIKI
Variant cover by BILL SIENKIEWICZ
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“DARK DESTINY” part three! The Pandora Pits’ secrets start to be revealed as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman team with Constantine, Deadman, Zatanna, *Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro* to attempt to close off the pits forever, but the dark energies are starting to corrupt the heroes.
On sale OCTOBER 18 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Aioros22

Judging by the solicit, it looks like the Outlaws will play along the rest of the kids!

----------


## Aioros22

> Also, is it too much to hope for that after all these bloody years, Jason and Cass will be able to establish a dynamic? Probably.


If the Annual is any indication, I think the creative team are taking the opportunities for such. I hope they take it because those two have more in common than it seems.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> We don't know yet. There's been literally zero hint as to why they're after Jason.


From the Solicit




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #15
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> Bizarro Reborn part two! As Batwoman and her team close in on the infamous Outlaws, Red Hood and Artemis must figure out what to do about *Bizarro, whose new war on crime has taken a dark turn*is this the end of the Outlaws as we know them?
> On sale OCTOBER 11  32 pg, FC, $3.99 US  RATED T+


Bizarro did something extreme that didn't went well with Batwoman, is likely they aren't even after Jason and Artemis but they will be damned if they let someone touch their kid.

----------


## Assam

> If the Annual is any indication, I think the creative team are taking the opportunities for such. I hope they take it because those two have more in common than it seems.


Which Annual are you referring to? 

And yes, the two absolutely have a lot in common. (And not in the dumb and shallow ways that I've found uninformed readers use to ship themgross.) One thing they _used_ to have in common but don't anymore is that they were both brought back by the Lazarus Pit and the differences in how each of them reacted to the experience (One being able to calm themselves and the other succumbing to the rage) could have made for an interesting story. 

That said, Jason's _current_ stance, killing when necessary, would actually make things more interesting in a story (s) dedicated solely on the two, wherein the focus was Cass wanting Jason to quit killing entirely(Something she'd realistically try to do). Whereas in Pre-Flashpoint continuity the argument would have been black and white, Cass just wanting to Jason to accept help, now, because of how Lobdell has realigned Jason, regardless of whose philosophies you agree with, neither would be absolutely in the right.

----------


## Agent Z

> Which Annual are you referring to? 
> 
> And yes, the two absolutely have a lot in common. (And not in the dumb and shallow ways that I've found uninformed readers use to ship themgross.) One thing they _used_ to have in common but don't anymore is that they were both brought back by the Lazarus Pit and the differences in how each of them reacted to the experience (One being able to calm themselves and the other succumbing to the rage) could have made for an interesting story. 
> 
> That said, Jason's _current_ stance, killing when necessary, would actually make things more interesting in a story (s) dedicated solely on the two, wherein the focus was Cass wanting Jason to quit killing entirely(Something she'd realistically try to do). Whereas in Pre-Flashpoint continuity the argument would have been black and white, Cass just wanting to Jason to accept help, now, because of how Lobdell has realigned Jason, regardless of whose philosophies you agree with, neither would be absolutely in the right.


People ship Cass and Jason?

----------


## Assam

> People ship Cass and Jason?


Took a quick look. On Archive of Our Own alone, there are 31 fanfics where the 2 are a couple.(There's tons more on other sites) Thankfully, fanart of the two as a couple is minimal (though still icky) and there's much more sibling stuff on that end. 

Generally, I've found that people ship them because they're "Dark" or "The Outcasts" (This one in particular seems to come from people who started reading during Batman Reborn), or "The Muscle and spirit of the Robins and Batgirls," and other crap like that.

----------


## Fergus

> People ship Cass and Jason?


People ship everyone in the family it's quite skeevy.

----------


## Aioros22

> Which Annual are you referring to? 
> 
> And yes, the two absolutely have a lot in common. (And not in the dumb and shallow ways that I've found uninformed readers use to ship themgross.) One thing they _used_ to have in common but don't anymore is that they were both brought back by the Lazarus Pit and the differences in how each of them reacted to the experience (One being able to calm themselves and the other succumbing to the rage) could have made for an interesting story. 
> 
> That said, Jason's _current_ stance, killing when necessary, would actually make things more interesting in a story (s) dedicated solely on the two, wherein the focus was Cass wanting Jason to quit killing entirely(Something she'd realistically try to do). Whereas in Pre-Flashpoint continuity the argument would have been black and white, Cass just wanting to Jason to accept help, now, because of how Lobdell has realigned Jason, regardless of whose philosophies you agree with, neither would be absolutely in the right


The upcoming Red Hood and the Outlaws #1 with Nigthwing where it`s indicated their relationship will be explored. If it does, for a worth of a full issue, it`s the first time in a good while. 

My main interest in these two is in phylosophy game. They were both trained to be assassins but the roads currently differ but I wonder if the ideology has similarities even now below the surface. Would Cass understand Jason`s pragmatism even if currently she`s no killing rule? She`s more stoic and cold in her approach to quit the assassin in her whereas Jason reveals a bit on it. Her memories of that training aren`t good one bit whereas Jason looks at Ducra as a clear mentor of his, someone he cared a great deal for and respected.

I wouldn`t mind them having an underlying bond of teacher/student either way, depending the lesson.

----------


## Aioros22

> People ship Cass and Jason?


People ship Bruce and _his kids._ Nothing new amazingly, SOTI was already shipping pedo Bruce and Dick Grayson before it was cool.

----------


## Assam

> The upcoming Red Hood and the Outlaws #1 with Nigthwing where it`s indicated their relationship will be explored. If it does, for a worth of a full issue, it`s the first time in a good while.


Oh, alright. Could be neat. 




> My main interest in these two is in phylosophy game. They were both trained to be assassins but the roads currently differ but I wonder if the ideology has similarities even now below the surface. Would Cass understand Jason`s pragmatism even if currently she`s no killing rule? She`s more stoic and cold in her approach to quit the assassin in her whereas Jason reveals a bit on it. Her memories of that training aren`t good one bit whereas Jason looks at Ducra as a clear mentor of his, someone he cared a great deal for and respected.


Cass and Jason I think really are the most driven of the BatFamily by their personal philosophies, most of the others' motivations boiling down to "Being a hero is the right thing to do" in some way (Though obviously more nuanced than that in most cases) or in Damian's case, just wanting to be like Dick and Bruce. Plus, there's the facts that they're both very introspective, as well as observant of the world around them, and they both spent years living on the streets. 

I'm not sure I'd _ever_ call Cass stoic and cold in any area. Is what you meant just that she's more firm in the abandonment of what she was trained to do? 

In answer to something you asked, yes, I do think she could understand Jason's pragmatism...but at the same time, there's no way she would _accept_ it. Her no kill rule is stricter than anyone else's, and if he actually did kill someone in her presence, she wouldn't stop getting in his way until she'd swayed him...which would never happen. Come to think of it though, having Cass confront Bruce about letting Jason run around killing people and still come home for the big crossovers and team-ups _would_ be a way to address criticisms people have had for years. 




> I wouldn`t mind them having an underlying bond of teacher/student either way, depending the lesson.


Like I said before, that route really only would have worked Pre-Flashpoint, where Jason was very clearly in the wrong. At this point, their ideals are equally valid and having either convince the other that their philosophy is right would be a detriment to both characters.

----------


## Fergus

> Oh, alright. Could be neat. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cass and Jason I think really are the most driven of the BatFamily by their personal philosophies, most of the others' motivations boiling down to "Being a hero is the right thing to do" in some way (Though obviously more nuanced than that in most cases) or in Damian's case, just wanting to be like Dick and Bruce. Plus, there's the facts that they're both very introspective, as well as observant of the world around them, and they both spent years living on the streets.



Damian's story is about changing your destiny and that we are more than the world writes us off as. Seeley even goes so far as to spell it out for the dumb in Nightwing when Damian tells dick that he only gets hung up on the legacy thing because in times of uncertainty that was all he had.

Dick Grayson without Bruce was already set on the path of avenging his parents and doing right T** as much as I loathe him sort out Batman. That kid had zero reason to do he had a good life and a happily ever after which a gave for the good fight.
It isn't right or fun when writers nerf characters to prop up others and it's just as uncool when fans do it. They are all heroes and they are all driven by their personal philosophy.
Dick is the one whose path and motivations most mirror Bruce.

----------


## scary harpy

I know this is out from left field but has anyone heard anything about Scarlet (Sasha)?

Thanks.

----------


## Aahz

> People ship everyone in the family it's quite skeevy.


Cass and Jason seems not really skeevy, pre flashpoint they are both adult around the same age and not biologically related and never met each other. 

Post flashpoint Cass is not even adopted, the only thing that could be problematic here is the potential age difference (and the question how old she is mentally).

If the relation could work depends probably on the version of Jason (his personality changed alot depending on the writer).

----------


## Fergus

> I know this is out from left field but has anyone heard anything about Scarlet (Sasha)?
> 
> Thanks.


Last we saw her was in Convergence when she was leaving town I think.

----------


## Fergus

> Cass and Jason seems not really skeevy, pre flashpoint they are both adult around the same age and not biologically related and never met each other. 
> 
> Post flashpoint Cass is not even adopted, the only thing that could be problematic here is the potential age difference (and the question how old she is mentally).
> 
> If the relation could work depends probably on the version of Jason (his personality changed alot depending on the writer).


What makes it skeevy is that the same writers who ship them also are the ones who write them as one big happy family. They might not be related but I still view it as Skeevy. Jason and T** are not related and yet that is one of the most unhealthy and wrong ships out there.

The DCU is full of male and female character that the family can be shipped with they don't have to date within their adopted family.

----------


## Alycat

Jason/ Tim being the most popular Jason ship both baffles and disgusts me.

I've also never thought to much about a potential Jason and Cass relationship. Currently she barely has even her past relationships back so one with Jason is pretty far on tghe back burner for me. I liss Cass and Tim  :Frown:

----------


## pansy

> People ship Bruce and _his kids._ Nothing new amazingly, SOTI was already shipping pedo Bruce and Dick Grayson before it was cool.


And we still have terry / bruce. God they are the same person.

----------


## Aahz

> What makes it skeevy is that the same writers who ship them also are the ones who write them as one big happy family.


It seems among the non canonic retaliation ships with in the Batfamily still the by far least problematic. Even less problematic than some that made it actually into stories (like Bruce/Barbara).

----------


## Aioros22

Bruce and Barbara isn`t a shicking ship wharever you look at it. It`s skeevy in the sense of "you`re dating someone your son used to" or "doode, that`s your best friend`s daugther" but it`s not amazingly out of norm or a family thing.

----------


## Aioros22

> Cass and Jason I think really are the most driven of the BatFamily by their personal philosophies, most of the others' motivations boiling down to "Being a hero is the right thing to do" in some way (Though obviously more nuanced than that in most cases) or in Damian's case, just wanting to be like Dick and Bruce. Plus, there's the facts that they're both very introspective, as well as observant of the world around them, and they both spent years living on the streets


Agreed and this isn`t to take anything out from the others, what I`m getting at and the reason I agree, is that by most driven, you mean most ambitious on the path they`ve set. I actually think either these two mirric Bruce the most in that regard over the others, Dick included. 

Of course, that kind of drive can go both ways, the positive and also the negative and true enough they also equally deal with struggles the most in that context. 




> I'm not sure I'd _ever_ call Cass stoic and cold in any area. Is what you meant just that she's more firm in the abandonment of what she was trained to do?


Yeah. I`m not saying she`s a cold person, but she`s more stoic, more firm. 




> In answer to something you asked, yes, I do think she could understand Jason's pragmatism...but at the same time, there's no way she would accept it. Her no kill rule is stricter than anyone else's, and if he actually did kill someone in her presence, she wouldn't stop getting in his way until she'd swayed him...which would never happen. Come to think of it though, having Cass confront Bruce about letting Jason run around killing people and still come home for the big crossovers and team-ups would be a way to address criticisms people have had for years


I`d like that in the sense of giving both ideologies a ways to think on the matter without throwing the easy way out for the reader - it`s not a B&W matter even if one of the characters sees it in such a manner. Making it clear that "running around killing people" is something that akins more the Joker (but that would likely be the part of the argument to display and talk about) whereas Jason is more an enforcer in context of Law. He targets those the Laws _can`t reach_ or _don`t want to touch_. 




> Like I said before, that route really only would have worked Pre-Flashpoint, where Jason was very clearly in the wrong. At this point, their ideals are equally valid and having either convince the other that their philosophy is right would be a detriment to both characters.


If both characters the writers present it well , there`s no detritement. There`s characters with a strong ideology with valid points whether they may agree or not. For the most part that`s been Bruce and Jason`s relationship recently. 

In the end I sort of view Jason and Cass as two Samurai (well one Samurai and one Ronin) who meet each other at a bridge and respect each other depsite having similar training but having done somehing different with it  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> And we still have terry / bruce. God they are the same person.


Oh, that`s normal. It`s called masturbation.

----------


## Aioros22

> Last we saw her was in Convergence when she was leaving town I think.


Batman and Robin Convergence, yeah. 

I hope Loedbell and co rescue her along the way as well. By far the best touch of Morrison on the character.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/887543660606181376

----------


## Caivu

And now with a hood:

Screenshot_20170719-002812.jpg

----------


## Godlike13

That actually is a pretty cool look, but damn do i wish they would phase out the Bat symbol on his chest.

----------


## G-Potion

I've never wanted a design to be official this much.

----------


## G-Potion

> Cass and Jason I think really are the most driven of the BatFamily by their personal philosophies, most of the others' motivations boiling down to "Being a hero is the right thing to do" in some way.


I'm not very invested in Cass to know much else but I agree with this statement so hard.

----------


## Aioros22

Tears are rolling down my face as I witness this. 

Happy tears. Soy is quickly becoming _the_ Jason artist if he isn`t already since Genesis.

----------


## Aioros22

> That actually is a pretty cool look, but damn do i wish they would phase out the Bat symbol on his chest.


I don`t care much for it and I`d trade it for something uniquely designed for him that pops as much, but they`re all bats and I get why they use it. 

The helmet is bloody awesome. It`s like Soy designed this for a fighting game before we ever knew he would be in Injustice. Ronin vibe for Jay all the way.

----------


## G-Potion

Cute art from https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

Badass Jason from https://twitter.com/VicPalomino04

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood by Sajah Shah

----------


## scary harpy

> Red Hood by Sajah Shah


Beautiful.

----------


## Aioros22

I aprove Jason being the second best ass of the family without giving a care he has it.

----------


## Alycat

> I aprove Jason being the second best ass of the family without giving a care he has it.


Who is even competition for second place? Bony butt Tim? I guess there's Bruce but eh.

----------


## Aioros22

There`s Dick. He really is a butt and is most marketed as such  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I just noticed



_The Lazarus Pit doesn't always bring people back the way they were..._

Subtle allusion to Jason?

----------


## Savatewolf

New Ikeman(pretty boy) figure for Jason 

This is my first time uploading a pic from mobile so I hope this works

Yeah it's not working...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> New Ikeman(pretty boy) figure for Jason 
> 
> This is my first time uploading a pic from mobile so I hope this works


Here

----------


## RedBird

> Here


Sweet! Does that mean Jason will be the second one made after Dicks statue is out?

I cant tell if that 2018 indicates the release date or a con it will be revealed at, either way, nice!

also YAY for the white streak!

----------


## G-Potion

It says the plan is to release it summer 2018.

----------


## G-Potion

Best legs in the fam??  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> It says the plan is to release it summer 2018.


Oh cool! Thanks!

I wonder what was the decision making process behind the designs?

The artist seems to have made an amalgamation of Jasons rhato/rhato rebirth outfit here. Bottom half rhato rebirth, Top half rhato with the exception of the exposed wrists.

Also, considering this one has the white streak and Dicks had the blue + fingerstripes, I'm tempted to say that they REALLY were trying to 'give the fans what they wanted'. Or what they thought they wanted based on popular fan art.




> Best legs in the fam??


Agreed!

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if Jason is actually made taller than Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> I just noticed
> 
> 
> 
> _The Lazarus Pit doesn't always bring people back the way they were..._
> 
> Subtle allusion to Jason?


Would be interesting to see whether Jason came out of the pit like this or differently.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I wonder what was the decision making process behind the designs?
> 
> The artist seems to have made an amalgamation of Jasons rhato/rhato rebirth outfit here. Bottom half rhato rebirth, Top half rhato with the exception of the exposed wrists.
> 
> Also, considering this one has the white streak and Dicks had the blue + fingerstripes, I'm tempted to say that they REALLY were trying to 'give the fans what they wanted'. Or what they thought they wanted based on popular fan art.


This line, like Kotobukiya's Bishoujo one, are artist driven. So they just license the characters and let the lead artist (Ricken here, Shunya Yamashita for Bishoujo) redesign the characters as they see fit. In essence, they're just licensed fan works.

----------


## G-Potion

Too precious to not repost.

Jason + Batman + Food in Go!Robins! Watch the episodes on - youtube.com/yolin

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

> This line, like Kotobukiya's Bishoujo one, are artist driven. So they just license the characters and let the lead artist (Ricken here, Shunya Yamashita for Bishoujo) redesign the characters as they see fit. In essence, they're just licensed fan works.


If it`s licensed by the company that owns the character it kind of stops being a fan work. It`s pretty clear that Japaneze artists at large love the white streak when designing Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If it`s licensed by the company that owns the character it kind of stops being a fan work. It`s pretty clear that Japaneze artists at large love the white streak when designing Jason.


They are still fan work _since that is literally the whole point of the line_ seeing foreign artists' take on characters outside their wheelhouse. 

This approach is quite common in Japan actually.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m aware Japan loves making their interpretations of foregein material, they`ve been doing it since the 60`s but the moment it`s oficially released by the company I don`t consider it "just" fan work. It`s no different than employing a foregein artist to draw your material. It`s still licensed. 

"Fan work" is not easily defined given the broad generelization but that`s there I draw my line on it. There`s doujinshi and there`s official lines.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I`m aware Japan loves making their interpretations of foregein material, they`ve been doing it since the 60`s but the moment it`s oficially released by the company I don`t consider it "just" fan work. It`s no different than employing a foregein artist to draw your material. It`s still licensed. 
> 
> "Fan work" is not easily defined given the broad generelization but that`s there I draw my line on it. There`s doujinshi and there`s official lines.


There are officially licensed doujinshi, odd as that might sound. Big series like Persona or FF are fond of hiring doujinshi artist for special licensed doujinshi to promote the launch of a game. They're even called _"Official Fanbook"_

----------


## Aioros22

True enough, Yamcha of Dragon Ball fame is having his own spin-off comic right now, not done by the creator, that`s being released in official capacity by the magazine.

----------


## KC

I just read the Rebirth run of Red Hood and the Outlaws to the current issue, and I am so glad I did. It is one of my favourite Rebirth books, and Jason has become one of my favourite Bat-characters.

----------


## G-Potion

> I just read the Rebirth run of Red Hood and the Outlaws to the current issue, and I am so glad I did. It is one of my favourite Rebirth books, and Jason has become one of my favourite Bat-characters.


Glad you like his book. Welcome to the Jason squad!  :Cool:

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Here


Really not a fan of people drawing the guy too pretty. Save that for Dick.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well I mean, the line whole point is to make "pretty boy" statues.

----------


## G-Potion

> Really not a fan of people drawing the guy too pretty. Save that for Dick.


To be fair,  he was drawn quite pretty in the first RHATO.

----------


## Aioros22

Even Damian will be drawn in the line as a pretty boy and the original design for the set is over a year old when Damian was still supposed to be 10.

Ideally, Jason is good looking with roughness charm in him. There`s a segment in Batman:Black and White drawn by Bermejo featuring a future Robin in training, where the name isn`t given but the dialogue more than hints being Jason (that and bikes, a drug factory, a gauntlet, bhitting one bad guy with a gun) and he kind of gives competition to Dick to how good looking he is: 



And yea, another out of context motorcycle scene

----------


## Aioros22

At least it`s not this pretty?



_TaitansGO!
_

----------


## Aioros22

Tom King interview about an upcoming arc involving Bruce`s relationship with Selina and the reactions herein from the boys. Credit to Tim`s Thread.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm more wary than excited tbh.

----------


## Aioros22

That will depend on the numbers of ropes available in a desert scenario.

----------


## Aioros22

http://www.cbr.com/tom-king-batman-c...post-proposal/

No matter what Catwoman’s decision, King makes one thing clear – Bruce Wayne is going on a road trip. “Batman leaves Gotham, he goes on a quest. We’re going through the desert, he’s got a horse, he’s got a shotgun. He’s going to have his shirt off with a sword, and hair on his chest — we’re going old-school Neal Adams here, guys. In his mind, he’s entered someplace he’s never gone, and now he’s going to go off on a mission that’s completely illegal. It’s something the Robins are blown away that he’s doing, it’s something the entire Justice League doesn’t approve of. But he’s doing it on his own, because he hit that emotional breaking point — or happy point — that he has to move on with this.”

Of course, though he may envision himself as a dark loner, Batman has one of the biggest extended families in comics. Thus, it should come as no surprise that whatever his status with Catwoman is at this point, he won’t be undergoing his journey of self-discovery alone. “He goes into the desert on a quest, and as he goes deeper and deeper down the river, Apocalypse Now-style, his friends try to rescue him. All the Robins are in this story. I started as a Robin writer. I started as a Dick Grayson, Robin War writer. This is a story about Jason, about Tim, about Dick, about Damian, and their reaction to what their father’s going through. Damian’s seeing him propose to someone who’s not his mother. It’s about them reacting to their father, and saying, ‘Is he going crazy, or is he finally finding peace?’* Of course, because it’s comics, the way they try to determine that is to punch him in the face*.”


Yeaaahhh...I`m not sure why would Jason or Damian by proxis be amazed at something illegal, even from Bruce. Being a vigilante is already illegal, guy. And appearantly, because comics, they will determine whether he`s found peace by punching him in the face. 

Well, looks reasonable.

----------


## dietrich

> http://www.cbr.com/tom-king-batman-c...post-proposal/
> 
> No matter what Catwoman’s decision, King makes one thing clear – Bruce Wayne is going on a road trip. “Batman leaves Gotham, he goes on a quest. We’re going through the desert, he’s got a horse, he’s got a shotgun. He’s going to have his shirt off with a sword, and hair on his chest — we’re going old-school Neal Adams here, guys. In his mind, he’s entered someplace he’s never gone, and now he’s going to go off on a mission that’s completely illegal. It’s something the Robins are blown away that he’s doing, it’s something the entire Justice League doesn’t approve of. But he’s doing it on his own, because he hit that emotional breaking point — or happy point — that he has to move on with this.”
> 
> Of course, though he may envision himself as a dark loner, Batman has one of the biggest extended families in comics. Thus, it should come as no surprise that whatever his status with Catwoman is at this point, he won’t be undergoing his journey of self-discovery alone. “He goes into the desert on a quest, and as he goes deeper and deeper down the river, Apocalypse Now-style, his friends try to rescue him. All the Robins are in this story. I started as a Robin writer. I started as a Dick Grayson, Robin War writer. This is a story about Jason, about Tim, about Dick, about Damian, and their reaction to what their father’s going through. Damian’s seeing him propose to someone who’s not his mother. It’s about them reacting to their father, and saying, ‘Is he going crazy, or is he finally finding peace?’* Of course, because it’s comics, the way they try to determine that is to punch him in the face*.”
> 
> 
> Yeaaahhh...I`m not sure why would Jason or Damian by proxis be amazed at something illegal, even from Bruce. Being a vigilante is already illegal, guy. And appearantly, because comics, they will determine whether he`s found peace by punching him in the face. 
> 
> Well, looks reasonable.


Well we are all pretending that every single member of the batfamily isn't breaking the law because comics.

----------


## yohyoi

> Well we are all pretending that every single member of the batfamily isn't breaking the law because comics.


Also why killing criminals is wrong because comics and no one stays dead.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

No King,  just don't.

You can't write Jason to save your life (or Batman for what it matters) so stop trying to make it happen.

----------


## Alycat

Well I like Kings Jason so I'm excited.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well we are all pretending that every single member of the batfamily isn't breaking the law because comics.


Some comics are just more honest than others. 

There`s this recent Dynamite crossover called MASKS having this scene between the Shadow and Green Hornet. They`ve all been brought together in a policed stated city (think Pulp heroes in a dystopia nigthmare) Hornet claims "..they have the Law on their side" to which Shadow merely responds "but we serve a higher calling. We serve Justice!"

----------


## Aahz

After Robin War, i am bane and this dumb list he posted on twitter I really don't want to see King anyway near Jason again.

----------


## dietrich

> Also why killing criminals is wrong because comics and no one stays dead.


^^ THIS^^^




> Well I like Kings Jason so I'm excited.


I like King's Batman however I am wary because I don't want the Robins brought in and used as plot devices like he did in I AM BANE.
Thomas asked Bruce to be happy. A major part of his happiness is his sons, the family he built for himself. I want King to address that and I'm not confident he will.

I want an arc addressing that. Bruce and his family [sons], individually or together.
A good happy story.

----------


## Aioros22

After the ropes and sleeping bit I`m not sure I care as much as I could about King and Robins.

----------


## Savatewolf

So Red Hood was brought up in the YJ panel, Someone asked what's going on with Jason/Red Hood and Greg said that he died but that he can't say anything else about it

Where as apparently in a Justice League action panel someone asked if Red Hood will show up and they said no but that he is in another DC project which I think we can safely say that he is indeed in YJ

Which brings up the question, is Jason gonna have the Outlaws with him? Because Arsenal is seemingly with the YJ team and not on his own and i doubt they would include two Artemises and also Starfire is yet to be seen even though I would much prefer they replace her with Blackfire as she fits the Outlaws idea better

----------


## Aioros22

They can say "no" all they want but demand is there and they will have him in some capacity sooner or later, as long the show doesn`t fold another couple years. I think the Outlaws is likely especially with two Roy on the show.

----------


## yohyoi

> So Red Hood was brought up in the YJ panel, Someone asked what's going on with Jason/Red Hood and Greg said that he died but that he can't say anything else about it
> 
> Where as apparently in a Justice League action panel someone asked if Red Hood will show up and they said no but that he is in another DC project which I think we can safely say that he is indeed in YJ
> 
> Which brings up the question, is Jason gonna have the Outlaws with him? Because Arsenal is seemingly with the YJ team and not on his own and i doubt they would include two Artemises and also Starfire is yet to be seen even though I would much prefer they replace her with Blackfire as she fits the Outlaws idea better


I don't think there will be Outlaws, but Jason may return. They might be doing the old "no answer therefore didn't lie" thing. DC won't taint Starfire with the Outlaw brand, and Jason isn't close to Roy because he quit the team before Jason was there.

I'm getting Jason will do the old time kick Tim's ass plan.

----------


## Alycat

I believe Jason will be there, but no Outlaws. Which is fine since if it's not the current team then I wouldn't want it anyway. The problem with Jason though is that YJ isn't a Batman show and last season a criticism was that alot of characters didn't get proper focus. For example Tim & Cassie, who barely showed up in any episode. This season has so many new and returning characters that I don't want Jason if he doesn't get the right amount of focus, but I don't want it taken from others either.

----------


## yohyoi

> I believe Jason will be there, but no Outlaws. Which is fine since if it's not the current team then I wouldn't want it anyway. The problem with Jason though is that YJ isn't a Batman show and last season a criticism was that alot of characters didn't get proper focus. For example Tim & Cassie, who barely showed up in any episode. This season has so many new and returning characters that I don't want Jason if he doesn't get the right amount of focus, but I don't want it taken from others either.


They could have an episode about Tim going to Batman and becoming Robin, and flashbacks to Jason's time as Robin. It will reflect the difference between them and why Batman allowed Tim to be Robin. It will also deepen Jason's hatred that he was replaced by Batman and to the new Robin. Jason will come back to kick Tim's ass until the team saves him.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, look two more Outlaws  :Cool: 

Bummer that Bizarro looks a Skin, tho.

----------


## Alycat

> Oh, look two more Outlaws 
> 
> Bummer that Bizarro looks a Skin, tho.


Starfire mad about Dick is wonderful. I see  alot of people are excited for Bizzaro.

----------


## yohyoi

> Starfire mad about Dick is wonderful. I see  alot of people are excited for Bizzaro.


Hopefully it is packed with other premier skins. Injustice 2 needs more premier skins.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

As I2 proved, a lot of people is eager to see the OG Outlaws outside comics, so I believe there's a definite possibility for them  to appear in YJ. There's a second Roy available and there's no Titans for Starfire to belong so the Outlaws seem like a logical pick.

Also hoping there's a reference to the Outlaws on Jason and Kori's interactions.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Anyways, this SDCC is another example of the way DC continues to give RHATO the cold shoulder. _Every_ other book gets at least a mention on their panels but RHATO may as well no exist for them.




> Well I like Kings Jason so I'm excited.


I have to ask. What's there to like about King's Jason?

He writes Jason as an immature brat that runs away from taking responsibility of his actions, as an alcoholic, put them at the bottom of his "who's the best fighter" list and then, when called out about it, said _Ace the Bathound_ was a better fighter than Jason. After months of hyping up the Robins' appearance on Batman, he takes them out off panel just to show them hanged from the batcave's ceiling for shock value before forgetting all about them.

----------


## G-Potion

Dexter Soy brings happiness to Jason fans again. Blessed.

----------


## Alycat

I like his portrayal in Robin War/ Grayson just fine and didn't think it was ooc. I am Bane was a huge mess for well everyone, but I enjoyed the 1 scene we had of the boys together. When did Jason run away from responsibility. Also I dont care about lists. The fact that it riled up Tim, Bruce,Babs, and Jason fans was more hilarious than anything.

----------


## RedBird

> When did Jason run away from responsibility.


I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here as to what that may allude to, and this was a issue that I had with his portrayal in Robin War but, that scene where Jason gets the War kids to take the tires from a bunch of mobster cars felt slightly off to me. I mean, whilst the line, (paraphrasing) "Dicks gonna be so mad when they shot. Gotta find a way to blame it on Tim somehow", is humorous sure, for a more slacker kind of character, it felt ooc to me. Wasnt a major part of Jasons moral code to protect children and make sure they didnt get hurt in the crossfire? Why would he be so blase about kids dying on his watch? And then seriously contemplate how to throw that responsibility of HIS own supposed irresponsibility.

----------


## yohyoi

> I like his portrayal in Robin War/ Grayson just fine and didn't think it was ooc. I am Bane was a huge mess for well everyone, but I enjoyed the 1 scene we had of the boys together. When did Jason run away from responsibility. Also I dont care about lists. The fact that it riled up Tim, Bruce,Babs, and Jason fans was more hilarious than anything.


People took the tweet too seriously. It's obvious King was poking fun at the end. Even Seeley joined it. And with King comparing Jason to Ace the Bat-Hound, the nerd rage was over the roof. Or should I say woof.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here as to what that may allude to, and this was a issue that I had with his portrayal in Robin War but, that scene where Jason gets the War kids to take the tires from a bunch of mobster cars felt slightly off to me. I mean, whilst the line, (paraphrasing) "Dicks gonna be so mad when they shot. Gotta find a way to blame it on Tim somehow", is humorous sure, for a more slacker kind of character, it felt ooc to me. Wasnt a major part of Jasons moral code to protect children and make sure they didnt get hurt in the crossfire? Why would he be so blase about kids dying on his watch? And then seriously contemplate how to throw that responsibility of HIS own supposed irresponsibility.


Exactly.

That line was incredibly jarring because Jason has been shown multiple times through RHATO to consider dead a serious topic and he _knows_ what is to put your life in the line every day fighting for something you believe in. So, having him say that (and if it was a joke, it was awfully delivered) makes clear King doesn't understand his character at all.

As for the list, I'd like to see if the fans were so understanding if it would've done by Lobdell and Dick were the one at the bottom. Or god forbid, Cassandra.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here as to what that may allude to, and this was a issue that I had with his portrayal in Robin War but, that scene where Jason gets the War kids to take the tires from a bunch of mobster cars felt slightly off to me. I mean, whilst the line, (paraphrasing) "Dicks gonna be so mad when they shot. Gotta find a way to blame it on Tim somehow", is humorous sure, for a more slacker kind of character, it felt ooc to me. Wasnt a major part of Jasons moral code to protect children and make sure they didnt get hurt in the crossfire? Why would he be so blase about kids dying on his watch? And then seriously contemplate how to throw that responsibility of HIS own supposed irresponsibility.


Gotcha and I can see that. Of course the entire situation with the kids was irresponsible and tbh the law in general would've been fine without the owl plot. Tbh, I keep thinking back to Alfred approving of the mess as the biggest offense and little irresponsible things from the boys didn't even register.

----------


## Aahz

> I like his portrayal in Robin War/ Grayson just fine and didn't think it was ooc. I am Bane was a huge mess for well everyone, but I enjoyed the 1 scene we had of the boys together. When did Jason run away from responsibility. Also I dont care about lists. The fact that it riled up Tim, Bruce,Babs, and Jason fans was more hilarious than anything.


The only part with Jason in Robin War I liked was the prison break issue which was written by Bermejo.

----------


## Aioros22

> People took the tweet too seriously. It's obvious King was poking fun at the end. Even Seeley joined it. And with King comparing Jason to Ace the Bat-Hound, the nerd rage was over the roof. Or should I say woof.


Everyone at deep level understood just fine that they wanted to rile people up but that sort of stuff fixes some numbers. I knew the intent the moment Mark fudging Waid chimmed in a classic joke about crowbars like it was the 90`s again. Oh, old men and nostalgia. 

Luckily and this is likely what matters, the actual products don`t reflect that so intead a nerd battle about Dick being booted by Cass like a newbie we have a few writers willing to take jabs at the rebellious pup - whereas Dick gets all the love. Since I care more about the product.. let them stroke :Big Grin: 

But the downside is that less marketing gives less chances of published material. The only thing that sucks right now is the lack of commitment from office in marketing the book, which continues to happen. They have a popular character with a growing fandom but don`t market it - that`s shoddy weird business.

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly.
> 
> That line was incredibly jarring because Jason has been shown multiple times through RHATO to consider dead a serious topic and he _knows_ what is to put your life in the line every day fighting for something you believe in. So, having him say that (and if it was a joke, it was awfully delivered) makes clear King doesn't understand his character at all.


I kinda see he wanted to write witty banter but that wasn`t it. I liked the part of stealing tires as a sort of bonding exam but the dialogue wasn`t the smartest. Best thing out of Robin:War by far was the prison break. Actually, acratch that, it was the only worthy sene out of R:War. Characters should be maleagable but some fundamentals be set. Jason`s no sell about kids is one of those rules. 




> As for the list, I'd like to see if the fans were so understanding if it would've done by Lobdell and Dick were the one at the bottom. Or god forbid, Cassandra.

----------


## Aioros22

Btw, looking at web at large and comic book/visual media based communities, the response about the lack of response of Jason Todd material in YJ3 is overhelming negative. Particularly about how cold shoulder they seemed in giving any references or future ideas. 

DC tends to be ways smarter about Jason in other media, he`s totally showing up and catching the fanbase by surprise.

----------


## RedBird

> Btw, looking at web at large and comic book/visual media based communities, the response about the lack of response of Jason Todd material in YJ3 is overhelming negative. Particularly about how cold shoulder they seemed in giving any references or future ideas. 
> 
> DC tends to be ways smarter about Jason in other media, he`s totally showing up and catching the fanbase by surprise.


Honestly I think the same, otherwise I would have expected a straight out no answer, I think they are being purposefully coy about it. 

I mean its still better than what happened with the panel for the new dc animated movies, whereupon the creators said that Jason and Tim dont exist in this world, THEN backtracked and tried to appease the booing fans by stating that they DO exist and live in the world but were never robins, which to me honestly makes it worse. Now that was messy.



But concerning Jason with Young Justice S3 I would honestly be very happy even with a flashback.

----------


## Aioros22

Fairly certain about the flashback mechanic. as noted they never said no regarding Jason, they simply said "hologram and he`s dead" which is merely the status we already know. I think to fuel any upcoming appearance shot, you should use flashbacks to stir up emotional chords, like Dick and Tim talking about him or staring the hologram when something wories them, etc.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://choe.is/

----------


## Alycat

I find some of the If Jasons not there Im not gonna watch stuff to be silly. Some people are acting  like they promised that the dude would be this season and they lied or something. Im just happy we're getting YJ back at all. Geez, even wanting to see him theres a million other things, especially about the current setup to be interested in.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

if he was to appear I rather he not be a fully fledged red hood but more of his in between stage from the Under the Red hood mini.  We never see him fully transition to becoming the red hood so that might be a cool arc for him.

----------


## G-Potion

> I find some of the If Jasons not there Im not gonna watch stuff to be silly. Some people are acting  like they promised that the dude would be this season and they lied or something. Im just happy we're getting YJ back at all. Geez, even wanting to see him theres a million other things, especially about the current setup to be interested in.


Well I can understand the disappointment seeing as there was hardly anything for the Jason fans this SDCC, as Dark has said, not even a mention of his book at all. As for YJ, they did skip his tenure as Robin and the way they were dismissive when asked about Jason added fuel to that so it rankles some minds of course. I still think he's gonna be in YJ3, but sometimes I wish DC would openly show the fans that they love Jason too.

----------


## G-Potion

> if he was to appear I rather he not be a fully fledged red hood but more of his in between stage from the Under the Red hood mini.  We never see him fully transition to becoming the red hood so that might be a cool arc for him.


You mean the Lost Days kind of thing or the follow-up after Under the Red Hood? I'd love to see it either way.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://choe.is/


Those are so cool! Very Injustice-y. I wouldn't mind Jason's face looking like that as well.

----------


## Aioros22

> I find some of the If Jasons not there Im not gonna watch stuff to be silly. Some people are acting  like they promised that the dude would be this season and they lied or something. Im just happy we're getting YJ back at all. Geez, even wanting to see him theres a million other things, especially about the current setup to be interested in.


I think that`s attaching a sort of victim-y mentality that is not there. 

They didn`t promised anything but in the interest of the Thread and Hoodlers it makes sense expectancy of Jason related stuff in YJ considering the reveal in the end of the past season. I`m more than glad the show is back and I, as well as many I`m sure, consider it the finest cartoon of te DCU since the Timm-verse shows. Fans at large enjoyed the reveal that Jason was part of this world and obviously want more of it. 

As fan of him and the book I find the lacking of presentation in the SDCC, especially considering the of crossovers RATHO will have with other main books/characters, to be flat-out embarassing. So far the mentions I`ve read about him was like, _fans asking about Jason to the producer of the YJ show_ sorta example. That`s inexcusable. It`s the company`s responsability to provide fans with material, not have them search around for it like it`s the Lost Ark.

----------


## Alycat

> I think that`s attaching a sort of victim-y mentality that is not there. 
> 
> They didn`t promised anything but in the interest of the Thread and Hoodlers it makes sense expectancy of Jason related stuff in YJ considering the reveal in the end of the past season. I`m more than glad the show is back and I, as well as many I`m sure, consider it the finest cartoon of te DCU since the Timm-verse shows. Fans at large enjoyed the reveal that Jason was part of this world and obviously want more of it. 
> 
> As fan of him and the book I find the lacking of presentation in the SDCC, especially considering the of crossovers RATHO will have with other main books/characters, to be flat-out embarassing. So far the mentions I`ve read about him was like, _fans asking about Jason to the producer of the YJ show_ sorta example. That`s inexcusable. It`s the company`s responsability to provide fans with material, not have them search around for it like it`s the Lost Ark.


 See I don't get why people expected it? What reveal at the end of the season? We got a info that he exsisted and died to explain why Tim is on the team and why he got so little experience. I'm not sure why that translates to expecting him this season when there is a bunch of non Jason plot stuff that was way more important. Mind you, I do think he could show up but they won't say. Also yes; some people are acting like victims but thats just the Internet in general. Example: There are also alot lf angry Cass fans right now depite the fact that Steph already had foreshadowing and Cass didn't and even then she could just not be in those pictures.

I agree with you on the book though. It's baffling that it isn't better promoted. Isn't it one of the better selling monthlies? Do different editorial groups decide what to promote?

----------


## yohyoi

> Example: There are also alot lf angry Cass fans right now depite the fact that Steph already had foreshadowing and Cass didn't and even then she could just not be in those pictures.


That thread was unpleasant to say the least.

----------


## Aioros22

People expect it because despite catching up in recent years, Jason could still use more animated appearances. Because they want the character to show up and they gave something for them to salivate further. The logical conclusion is fans wanting Red Hood or a similar alias for Jason to pop up. 

There is nothing out of normal with this expectancy when talking about a character with growing popularity. The same will apply to other characters, of course, but they aren`t as relevant here. 

I have no idea how Offices decide what they decide. Maybe they think it`s steady, maybe they`re satisfied with the popularity Jason has despite some blumbers so they feel they`re doing alright. Maybe Loedbell and Soy are "too safe" in editorial and with the raving reviews each month for quality control they rather promote other things. 

It`s baffling. We have a character and concept book that despite blumbers, bad writting and so, managed to literally come back from the dead and become on the best cases of popularity and/or quality rise in recent years but when it comes to their comic, DC hardly promotes shit. When it comes to numbers, more is always better but they seem to be okay with it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I think that`s attaching a sort of victim-y mentality that is not there. 
> 
> They didn`t promised anything but in the interest of the Thread and Hoodlers it makes sense expectancy of Jason related stuff in YJ considering the reveal in the end of the past season. I`m more than glad the show is back and I, as well as many I`m sure, consider it the finest cartoon of te DCU since the Timm-verse shows. Fans at large enjoyed the reveal that Jason was part of this world and obviously want more of it. 
> 
> As fan of him and the book I find the lacking of presentation in the SDCC, especially considering the of crossovers RATHO will have with other main books/characters, to be flat-out embarassing. So far the mentions I`ve read about him was like, _fans asking about Jason to the producer of the YJ show_ sorta example. That`s inexcusable. It`s the company`s responsability to provide fans with material, not have them search around for it like it`s the Lost Ark.


Right? He's going to be in Trinity, he's going to have Dick in the annual. RHATO should be at least mentioned. It's terrible promotion.

----------


## Alycat

I wish it got more promotion than the current terribleness that is Titans. That book is running on name and one character alone. Deathtroke and New Superman are excellent but lower selling books that get promoted so I have no idea why RHaTO isn't prioritized even when he shows up in other books or has guest characters.

I think DC just has a weird interpretation of Robin popularity. Jason keeps coming in second place in all of their polls, but they would rather poorly promote Damian and make more people hate him. Maybe the'll wake up like they recently have with Dick and realize that people like a character and stop treating them like crap.

----------


## G-Potion

> Right? He's going to be in Trinity, he's going to have Dick in the annual. RHATO should be at least mentioned. It's terrible promotion.


You know it's a problem when a Bleeding Cool article called it out.

----------


## G-Potion

> I wish it got more promotion than the current terribleness that is Titans. That book is running on name and one character alone. Deathtroke and New Superman are excellent but lower selling books that get promoted so I have no idea why RHaTO isn't prioritized even when he shows up in other books or has guest characters.


From what I see from twitter, even RHATO/Titans editorial people seem to promote Titans much more.
By the way, are you still reading Titans? I'm not but I think reviews for it has been much better now.




> I think DC just has a weird interpretation of Robin popularity. Jason keeps coming in second place in all of their polls, but they would rather poorly promote Damian and make more people hate him. Maybe the'll wake up like they recently have with Dick and realize that people like a character and stop treating them like crap.


Time will tell. Jason will just have to persevere.

----------


## Alycat

> From what I see from twitter, even RHATO/Titans editorial people seem to promote Titans much more.
> By the way, are you still reading Titans? I'm not but I think reviews for it has been much better now


I am cause I'm a sucker. I have no idea why/if reviews have gotten better because the book itself has actually gotten worse. Titans/ Teen Titans is or at least should be promoted because its a big brand. That said I still see no point of the OG team when it isn't the team people thinknof or love when talking about Titans.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> See I don't get why people expected it? What reveal at the end of the season? We got a info that he exsisted and died to explain why Tim is on the team and why he got so little experience. I'm not sure why that translates to expecting him this season when there is a bunch of non Jason plot stuff that was way more important. Mind you, I do think he could show up but they won't say. Also yes; some people are acting like victims but thats just the Internet in general. Example: There are also alot lf angry Cass fans right now depite the fact that Steph already had foreshadowing and Cass didn't and even then she could just not be in those pictures.
> 
> I agree with you on the book though. It's baffling that it isn't better promoted. Isn't it one of the better selling monthlies? Do different editorial groups decide what to promote?


Because Greg Weisman said Jason was planned to appear as an enforcer of the Light if the series would've gotten a third season a couple of years ago on his personal website

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 13 variant

----------


## Aioros22

> Because Greg Weisman said Jason was planned to appear as an enforcer of the Light if the series would've gotten a third season a couple of years ago on his personal website


Ah, I wasn`t even aware he had said something that especific on that note but I maintain the same attitude. They don`t own us any promises but it`s just natural fans want more than a hologram. Of course with something that substancial to back on I can understand some of the more extreme reactions. 

If they don`t want to commit to too many characters they can make use of the story inside the story narrative tool made famous (ex) Watchmen. Every time Tim or Dick glance at the hologram, or any other that may have known him, or reference him, they could make scenes that in the end of the season fit together as a whole mini story of Jason. Maybe a Last Crusade or a pertinent case about some new antagonist and in the end, he gets to make his entrance to sell  Season 4.

----------


## adrikito

> Issue 13 variant


Lex: MY MONSTER.

----------


## Aioros22

*A new script could be just what the solo Batman movie needs to get back on track*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.168c2c221032

----------


## Aioros22

Kite-man: hell Yeah!

https://twitter.com/meezus_christ/st...76249924718592

----------


## Aioros22

https://efficiar.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Flat out impressed with the lasting impression Jason did with gamers in AK. After all this time, there`s people still creating their own skins to increase replaylability

----------


## Alycat

> Flat out impressed with the lasting impression Jason did with gamers in AK. After all this time, there`s people still creating their own skins to increase replaylability


It baffles me that We never got an official free roam with all the available characters. Its such a why not thing to include.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Aioros22

> It baffles me that We never got an official free roam with all the available characters. Its such a why not thing to include.


That would be more costly to the studio budget I guess. I`m no expert in how this exercise goes, but I`m guessing there`s always a limit in the final agreement. It should be something done for a Deluxe edition but alas, fans seem to take enough care of it  :Wink:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## G-Potion

That number tho. Talk about overwhelming.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, man more than the others combined. Not even close  :Cool:  :Wink:

----------


## yohyoi

It's disappointing Red Hood wasn't in the DCEU intro or the SDCC character banner. There was 80+ characters there, even Tim Drake Robin. I can't see any reason why Geoff Johns didn't include him, since he is more popular than a lot of character there.

----------


## RedBird

> You know it's a problem when a Bleeding Cool article called it out.


Yeah, its disappointing, but I guess DCs priorities are elsewhere at the moment. The last time I can remember any sort of real 'promotion' for the character was the 2015 Arkham Knight era, that was nice while it lasted.

----------


## RedQueen

> It's disappointing Red Hood wasn't in the DCEU intro or the SDCC character banner. There was 80+ characters there, even Tim Drake Robin. I can't see any reason why Geoff Johns didn't include him, since he is more popular than a lot of character there.


I think the robin is actually Mr Miracle because I've seen people compare the pair and it's more Scott than Tim.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah, its disappointing, but I guess DCs priorities are elsewhere at the moment. The last time I can remember any sort of real 'promotion' for the character was the 2015 Arkham Knight era, that was nice while it lasted.


After they put Lobdell on Jason for the 3rd consecutive time i figured DC was taking the bare minimum approach. They're not gonna spend much on premonition. I'm honestly surprised they haven't moved Soy yet.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's disappointing Red Hood wasn't in the DCEU intro or the SDCC character banner. There was 80+ characters there, even Tim Drake Robin. I can't see any reason why Geoff Johns didn't include him, since he is more popular than a lot of character there.


We don`t know if he`s there or not, there`s not a HD view on all the characters yet. Last it was discussed here, whereas the guy at the right side is Lobo (whose silhuete looked like Hood) there`s another similar one at left side that it could be him. 

Likewise with other characters. 

But yeah, dissapointing.

----------


## yohyoi

> We don`t know if he`s there or not, there`s not a HD view on all the characters yet. Last it was discussed here, whereas the guy at the right side is Lobo (whose silhuete looked like Hood) there`s another similar one at left side that it could be him. 
> 
> Likewise with other characters. 
> 
> But yeah, dissapointing.


Everyone was identified in the SDCC character banner. No Red Hood. The SDCC character banner came from the DCEU intro.

----------


## Aioros22

> After they put Lobdell on Jason for the 3rd consecutive time i figured DC was taking the bare minimum approach. They're not gonna spend much on premonition. I'm honestly surprised they haven't moved Soy yet.


If they put Loedbell because they are satisfied with him I can agree in the sense that being comfortable can be counter productive dangerous but at the end of the day, it`s not on any creative team to promote the book, it`s on Office. It`s still their responsability. Seeley is handling Dick Grayson for a second time but the character is being heavily promoted. 

As long the creative team handles quality, and unanimously they have, TPTB have to do their share of the bourden and they aren`t. They have a character whom 20 years ago nobody would fathom to reach this level of popularity but they keep hoping the hot potato in their hands instead of pushing further. As if they are so amazed how popular he`s got that they haven`t open the eyes and wonder how _far_ he can still go. You have a goldmine for good action drama with Dick and Jason returning to the lives of an aging Bruce Wayne on film and here we are sitting on the edge of our seats wondering. 

I am almost sure they will use Jason in the DCEU and the reason theyr`re hum is for the surprise factor that tends to work for the character but right now you have a 3-way Trinity story for the first time ever and an Annual meeting between the two eldest and both popular Bat characters as well as RATHO and that should be what they should be showing and promoting.

----------


## Aioros22

> Everyone was identified in the SDCC character banner. No Red Hood. The SDCC character banner came from the DCEU intro.


I didn`t see it then, source?

----------


## yohyoi

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ner_from_sdcc/

----------


## Aioros22

Thanks. 

Yeah, doesn`t look like he`s there at all. The only red hood I see first glance is Deathstroke (?)

Who`s the woman in front of Spectre?

----------


## RedBird

> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ner_from_sdcc/


Well I suppose the idea is that he is thought to be up in the clouds right now :P

----------


## Aioros22

DC Ex: Weeelllll, he`s not there because he hasn`t been revived yet. Yup yup.

DC Ex: Weeellll, he`s a ninja. Batman isn`t a ninja, he`s Batman. 

We get it DC/WB, you want it to be a surprise, we`re use to it. But feed us something worthy at the very least. This is a _growing_ fanbase, ye dummies. Don`t let it dry in the desert.

----------


## yohyoi

> After they put Lobdell on Jason for the 3rd consecutive time i figured DC was taking the bare minimum approach. They're not gonna spend much on premonition. I'm honestly surprised they haven't moved Soy yet.


It seems Soy is fan of Red Hood. It would not be a surprise if he volunteered.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Oh God...Why?!

----------


## RedBird

> Oh God...Why?!


Dont like Soy?

----------


## Aahz

> I am almost sure they will use Jason in the DCEU and the reason theyr`re hum is for the surprise factor that tends to work for the character but right now you have a 3-way Trinity story for the first time ever and an Annual meeting between the two eldest and both popular Bat characters as well as RATHO and that should be what they should be showing and promoting.


The thing is that Trinity is (despite featuring 3 of DC biggest charcters) a relatively minor book, that never gets much promotion.

----------


## Aioros22

The characters do, thought. And so should a book featuring them, otherwise, what`s even the point? 

I get that the complain isn`t just about RATHO (RIP Constantine th show) but it just happens to stand out. If Jason was much less popular or even Bizarro right now (it`s no coincidence we`re now getting a Premier Skin of his in Injustice) I`d get it but fan response is what it is. For that matter they should probably promote WW more since her movie just set a new record by becoming the summer top money, leaving GOTG2 in 2nd place as of now. Which is a first in the current line.

----------


## G-Potion

HYPE! https://twitter.com/TylerKirkhamArt

----------


## Aioros22

Looks great! It looks like the chest blast is the gear we see him using against Batman instead of a receiving attack.

----------


## magpieM

No Batman doesn't use gun or knife. It looks like he is in the middle of crossfire when Red Hood is shooting someone else.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Looks great! It looks like the chest blast is the gear we see him using against Batman instead of a receiving attack.


He's receiving it, the source is the thing on the leg of...




> No Batman doesn't use gun or knife. It looks like he is in the middle of crossfire when Red Hood is shooting someone else.


KGBeast

----------


## G-Potion

> No Batman doesn't use gun or knife. It looks like he is in the middle of crossfire when Red Hood is shooting someone else.


He's fighting KGBeast. What Aioros22 meant is that it's easy now to see the blast being the same electric blast Jason used against Batman in RHATO, as it was harder to tell in the previous lineart.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, that`s what I meant, the "chest bump".

----------


## Alycat

So I wonder if KGBeast runs this evil circus plot.

----------


## Aioros22

> He's receiving it, the source is the thing on the leg of...
> 
> 
> 
> KGBeast


Jason`s chest gear is an electric charge (blue - as seen in the 1rst arc against Batman). Bullets are colored yellow as both him and KGBeast are shooting up. 

At least that`s how I read the scene outside any sequence to judge.

----------


## Aioros22

> So I wonder if KGBeast runs this evil circus plot.


Either that or he`s the main enforcer of the person who does. 

Really hoping for interaction and Jason being the one to take him down considering Beast is one of the main rogues created during his earlier tenures. I`ve been thinking about it one of these days and dawned me (as obvious as it is) that Killer Croc, KGBeast, Deacon Blackfire and Black Mask were all created with him in the role. That`s some history.

----------


## adrikito

> HYPE! https://twitter.com/TylerKirkhamArt


I need the complete image.... Deathstroke?

----------


## Aioros22

From the weapon, it`s KGBeast.

----------


## Aahz

If that thing is taking place in a circus Waldo  and Chimera could appear  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Chimera as the hidden mastermind, oh I wouldn`t mind. Neither Waldo, he was a nice character. 

I`m in for RATHO bringing back good potential from limbo to surround Jason again. Time to re-introduce some of it to new audiences.

----------


## RedBird

Thoughts?



[X]

----------


## Aioros22

If you want to lose the shot of Jason appearing in a popular cartoon, a project under his own name is the best trade.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## SpentShrimp

The statue looks so bad

----------


## Aahz

> The characters do, thought. And so should a book featuring them, otherwise, what`s even the point?


Don't know (appart from that there are apparently enough people who by an other comic featuring the big three),but the truth is that all the important stuff usually happens in the solo books or Justice League, not in Trinity, or its predecessor Batman/Superman.

It is kind of like the "Dark Knight" series, they had in the beginning of the new 52, as third Batman series after "Batman" and "Detective Comics" (or maybe even 4th if you count "Batman and Robin"), which was also completely unimportant.

Thats also why imo a guest appearance in Trinity is not really a push for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> The statue looks so bad


What statue?

----------


## Aioros22

> Don't know (appart from that there are apparently enough people who by an other comic featuring the big three),but the truth is that all the important stuff usually happens in the solo books or Justice League, not in Trinity, or its predecessor Batman/Superman.
> 
> It is kind of like the "Dark Knight" series, they had in the beginning of the new 52, as third Batman series after "Batman" and "Detective Comics" (or maybe even 4th if you count "Batman and Robin"), which was also completely unimportant.
> 
> Thats also why imo a guest appearance in Trinity is not really a push for Jason.


Self contained books shouldn`t be above promotion but I wouldn`t be surprised if that`s what they tought. That`s not the counterproductive thinking that makes good business. There`s no Batman/Superman anymore, it`s Trinity. It`s a pitch landed by Didio himself. 

That said, let`s say it isn`t usually promoted but this special, this 3-way is something that`s never happened. Get attention to _that_ to bring viewers in. There`s way too many fans and potential lookers from these 9 characters for them to be hush about it.

----------


## Alycat

They dont want to get people too hype. Trinity is usually a snooze fest after all  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> That said, let`s say it isn`t usually promoted but this special, this 3-way is something that`s never happened. Get attention to _that_ to bring viewers in. There`s way too many fans and potential lookers from these 9 characters for them to be hush about it.


If you count the villains you have actually 4 trinities. 




> There`s no Batman/Superman anymore, it`s Trinity. It`s a pitch landed by Didio himself.


But Trinity has pretty much taken over the slot of Batman/Superman and gets the same treatment.
As it is RHatO crossing over with Titans, Super Sons or Suicide Squad would probably bigger than crossing over with Trinity.
And Trinity has still decent sales it is not really a title people are speaking about.

----------


## Aioros22

Batman/Superman was heavily promoted in its launch and throught the first arcs. I don`t recall the later ones so I`ll withhold any jugdment on it. That`s why I understand where the WW fanbase who believes DC just doesn`t _really_ get behind her comes from. 

That`s the reason despite not being a particular fan of the character, I`m loving that it`s her movie that is setting records as far as DCEU is concerned, not Superman and not Batman thus far.

----------


## Alycat

It helps that her movie wasn't garbage fire. But I wonder if it's still an Ironman/ Spiderman situation . MCU Iron Man brings butts into billion dollar movies yet in comic sells and merch Spiderman runs laps. Like WW, comic book Ironman simply isn't as strong a character as his counterpart and is hard to get behind. WW as a character also has this problem. It's hard to promote her cause she acts so different writer to writer without the solid foundation the other two have in villains and support characters, which was also a problem with her movie tbh.Movvie popularity doesn't equal comic popularity but I wonder how they are going to try capitalize on her success.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Eh, Batman V Superman was much better movie than WW. 

The argument is pointless anyway, since pretty much any crossover is self contained on its own books with those company wide crossovers being reserved to their own special one shots and the like. And Trinity does sell pretty well so ultimately is a net gain for RHATO.

----------


## Aioros22

The storytelling in BvS was down the drain average as it gets in places and I`m being civil. It got some cool touches and it`s not the worst superhero movie or anything (Catwoman still holds that spot) but for what it was set to do it was lackluster and all over the place. 

The Martha thing is still to me the most medíocre bit of dialogue I`ve seen, perhaps, in the whole modern genre. Snyder is great at storyboard but lacks character writting. 

Wonder Woman, on the other hand, is tigher. with better storytelling, more enjoyable character work (Steve Trevor being more memorable than Superman in BvS) still good action and an actual last battle with the villain.

----------


## Aioros22

> It helps that her movie wasn't garbage fire. But I wonder if it's still an Ironman/ Spiderman situation . MCU Iron Man brings butts into billion dollar movies yet in comic sells and merch Spiderman runs laps. Like WW, comic book Ironman simply isn't as strong a character as his counterpart and is hard to get behind. WW as a character also has this problem. It's hard to promote her cause she acts so different writer to writer without the solid foundation the other two have in villains and support characters, which was also a problem with her movie tbh.Movvie popularity doesn't equal comic popularity but I wonder how they are going to try capitalize on her success.


That`s pretty much the crossorads of the whole argument. One doesn`t automatically translate in the other but what can you do or should be doing to bridge that to bring new readers? Marvel is being (in) famous with the movie sinergy tool but they have an advantage with belonging to Disney group now. They have a wider media access these days to potentialize. 

Mayhaps the standard or old marketing tactics are just that. Outdated and you need to think of new ones across the board that are more effective.

----------


## Alycat

> The storytelling in BvS was down the drain average as it gets in places and I`m being civil. It got some cool touches and it`s not the worst superhero movie or anything (Catwoman still holds that spot) but for what it was set to do it was lackluster and all over the place. 
> 
> The Martha thing is still to me the most medíocre bit of dialogue I`ve seen, perhaps, in the whole modern genre. Snyder is great at storyboard but lacks character writting. 
> 
> Wonder Woman, on the other hand, is tigher. with better storytelling, more enjoyable character work (Steve Trevor being more memorable than Superman in BvS) still good action and an actual last battle with the villain.


I agree with you on everything here ( so does the general public apparently).


Anyway, I welcome more crossovers/ guest spots for RHaTO as long as their good and not worthless like Night of the Monster men. A whole month of Nightwing barely being in his book for a mediocre story is not something I wish on any character or book.

----------


## Aioros22

Sometimes quality gotta win  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> From the weapon, it`s KGBeast.


Thanks, the first time, I didn´t see him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The storytelling in BvS was down the drain average as it gets in places and I`m being civil. It got some cool touches and it`s not the worst superhero movie or anything (Catwoman still holds that spot) but for what it was set to do it was lackluster and all over the place. 
> 
> The Martha thing is still to me the most medíocre bit of dialogue I`ve seen, perhaps, in the whole modern genre. Snyder is great at storyboard but lacks character writting. 
> 
> Wonder Woman, on the other hand, is tigher. with better storytelling, more enjoyable character work (Steve Trevor being more memorable than Superman in BvS) still good action and an actual last battle with the villain.


No, writing on BvS was incredibly tight but it was also denser for the average viewer and played with the preconceived notions people has about Batman in Superman in an attempt to truly flesh them out as characters. The Martha scene is something that has been built on the background for the entire film and thus, is an excellent payoff for those who paid attention. And even then, Snyder bothered to include the flashback so people would get the importance of it but still flew over people's heads.

WW on the other hand was just a ver paint by the numbers film with no real interest on digging deeper on the psyche of the character nor its adversary. Entertaining but ultimately forgettable.

----------


## G-Potion

> No, writing on BvS was incredibly tight but it was also denser for the average viewer and played with the preconceived notions people has about Batman in Superman in an attempt to truly flesh them out as characters. The Martha scene is something that has been built on the background for the entire film and thus, is an excellent payoff for those who paid attention. And even then, Snyder bothered to include the flashback so people would get the importance of it but still flew over people's heads.
> 
> WW on the other hand was just a ver paint by the numbers film with no real interest on digging deeper on the psyche of the character nor its adversary. Entertaining but ultimately forgettable.


I'm not too big on the Martha thing, but I did enjoy BvS (Ultimate Edition) more than WW.

----------


## yohyoi

> No, writing on BvS was incredibly tight but it was also denser for the average viewer and played with the preconceived notions people has about Batman in Superman in an attempt to truly flesh them out as characters. The Martha scene is something that has been built on the background for the entire film and thus, is an excellent payoff for those who paid attention. And even then, Snyder bothered to include the flashback so people would get the importance of it but still flew over people's heads.
> 
> WW on the other hand was just a ver paint by the numbers film with no real interest on digging deeper on the psyche of the character nor its adversary. Entertaining but ultimately forgettable.


What?!  :Confused:

----------


## yohyoi

> No, writing on BvS was incredibly tight but it was also denser for the average viewer and played with the preconceived notions people has about Batman in Superman in an attempt to truly flesh them out as characters. The Martha scene is something that has been built on the background for the entire film and thus, is an excellent payoff for those who paid attention. And even then, Snyder bothered to include the flashback so people would get the importance of it but still flew over people's heads.
> 
> WW on the other hand was just a ver paint by the numbers film with no real interest on digging deeper on the psyche of the character nor its adversary. Entertaining but ultimately forgettable.


What?!  :Confused: 

So flabbergasted I posted twice.

----------


## Aioros22

> No, writing on BvS was incredibly tight but it was also denser for the average viewer and played with the preconceived notions people has about Batman in Superman in an attempt to truly flesh them out as characters. The Martha scene is something that has been built on the background for the entire film and thus, is an excellent payoff for those who paid attention. And even then, Snyder bothered to include the flashback so people would get the importance of it but still flew over people's heads.
> 
> WW on the other hand was just a ver paint by the numbers film with no real interest on digging deeper on the psyche of the character nor its adversary. Entertaining but ultimately forgettable.


The preconveived notion was that BvS was the blockbuster that would top the Marvel investiment with "minor" (See? Preconceived) characters like Iron Man and Thor (or, The Justice League over the Avengers). It didn`t, mostly because, as generally pointed out in reviews, the characters aren`t handled well in large sections and the interacting confrontations between the two up until the Martha scene were presented as akin to a schoolyard bull fight rather than something more grand (best handled in the bits leading to it when they aren`t interacting directly). This is what you get with a director so in love with the asthetic of a work, like DKR, happens to not be an actual writer. 

I paid attention to the Martha scene. I`m going to venture the majority paid attention. That one would think you needed to pay really close inspection to a scene that of intertextual subtility had very little - especially with the director "bothering" to use a flashback for everyone to really really get it (except when you already do) isn`t supposed to make the scene much better. Yes, there`s a simbolic aspect in telling him to save Martha beyond saving his own mother. It`s a sacrífice he`s asking of him and equally a reminder to Bruce Wayne of the reason behind what he chose to be, to do, to save lives, including one he couldn`t save before - the "Martha". 

Did that really flew over the cuco`s nest as much defenders claim? Most people aren`t that stupid or distracted. On a subconscious level, most got that fine with what the film gave us. You didn`t need Snyder to hammer it so on the audience because that gives the impression he doesn`t consider his audience to be smart enough to get it and that`s exactly what I felt watching the scene the first time:

"C`mon man, don`t try so hard"

Going past that road, the other major issue is the sheer delivery of the scene as filmed. I have nothing but respect for actors, the filmaking staff and the craft you require to have but it simply felt awkward. 

So yeah..we`re not agreeing on this one  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The preconveived notion was that BvS was the blockbuster that would top the Marvel investiment with "minor" (See? Preconceived) characters like Iron Man and Thor (or, The Justice League over the Avengers). It didn`t, mostly because, as generally pointed out in reviews, the characters aren`t handled well in large sections and the interacting confrontations between the two up until the Martha scene *were presented as akin to a schoolyard bull fight rather than something more grand (best handled in the bits leading to it when they aren`t interacting directly). This is what you get with a director so in love with the asthetic of a work, like DKR, happens to not be an actual writer.*


Perfect example of the preconceptions I mentioned. The fight being framed like that _was the entire point._ The film is depicting a man being driven so over the edge by his own fear and resentment that embarks himself on a fool's errand, one that he only succeeded because his adversary was the better man.

And hey, good thing Snyder didn't write the film but actual writers did.




> I paid attention to the Martha scene. I`m going to venture the majority paid attention. That one would think you needed to pay really close inspection to a scene that of intertextual subtility had very little - especially with the director "bothering" to use a flashback for everyone to really really get it (except when you already do) isn`t supposed to make the scene much better. Yes, there`s a simbolic aspect in telling him to save Martha beyond saving his own mother. It`s a sacrífice he`s asking of him and equally a reminder to Bruce Wayne of the reason behind what he chose to be, to do, to save lives, including one he couldn`t save before - the "Martha". 
> 
> Did that really flew over the cuco`s nest as much defenders claim? Most people aren`t that stupid or distracted. On a subconscious level, most got that fine with what the film gave us. You didn`t need Snyder to hammer it so on the audience because that gives the impression he doesn`t consider his audience to be smart enough to get it and that`s exactly what I felt watching the scene the first time:
> 
> "C`mon man, don`t try so hard"


And yet you totally missed the point of the scene. Bruce didn't stop for that. He stopped because Clark's works make him realize he had become the man that killed his parents, that he wasn't killing an alien but rather, Thomas Wayne himself.




> Going past that road, the other major issue is the sheer delivery of the scene as filmed. I have nothing but respect for actors, the filmaking staff and the craft you require to have but it simply felt awkward. 
> 
> So yeah..we`re not agreeing on this one


Being awkward is precisely the reason it works. Affleck's reaction in particular is what sells the whole scene.

And with that said, I won't touch the theme again because is both off topic and a pointless endeavour. No one will change their mind about the film.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I went ahead and joined the pictures into a bigger one



Also, Soy just uploaded an addition to his earlier fanart

----------


## G-Potion

Bizar raw  :Big Grin:  https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...889472/photo/1

----------


## G-Potion

> I went ahead and joined the pictures into a bigger one


Make me think of this.

----------


## Aioros22

Just to wrap things up on the technical level since understandably the rest is up to preferences. 




> Perfect example of the preconceptions I mentioned. The fight being framed like that _was the entire point._ The film is depicting a man being driven so over the edge by his own fear and resentment that embarks himself on a fool's errand, one that he only succeeded because his adversary was the better man.


The escalation is fine. I`m talking about how the interactions were directed/planned. Like letting bad guys on a wild drive way shooting flip past them because it`s schoolyard hour. 




> And hey, good thing Snyder didn't write the film but actual writers did.


He`s got no writting credit in the movie but we know since his MOS, from backstage material and interviews that he interjects (for good or worse) his vision in that department and has been one of the main huncos of the DCEU launch. He storyboards his own movies, after all. 




> And yet you totally missed the point of the scene. Bruce didn't stop for that. He stopped because Clark's works make him realize he had become the man that killed his parents, that he wasn't killing an alien but rather, Thomas Wayne himself


That`s a similar outcome of what most people would get on a gut level ("you`re letting him kill Martha. Him") The "Martha" outside the very obvious coincidence that Snyder also hammers in the scene via Lois, is there to wake Batman up from his drunken stupor and shake him into acting like _Batman_ again. The 1rst Thomas mention is followed by the iconic necklace pearl of his mother in the fall and then ends with him again saying her name.

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/890290351960936449




Our baby boy`s oficial artwork for Injustice is out  :Cool: 

From what I`ve seen around there`s the possibility of the Arkham Knight Scarecrow version being his Premier Skin. It would obviously open possibilities with the following two giving me goosehumps if they come true. 

a) _Arkham Knight_ Premier Skin for Jason. It`s basically a lock. 

b) *CW Arrow* Premier Skin for Green Arrow. Shoot! This seems pretty obvious too and right up their alley but a part of me wouldn`t mind Roy being his skin to see more of the Outlaws all united.

----------


## Aioros22

_Bizar raw_


Soy is at it again, folks.

----------


## RedBird

More Goodness from Kirkham

DFv3kymUMAEBOeE.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

All very cool looking panels. I only hope the actual fight turns out well for Jason. He's been thrown around a little bit too much.

----------


## RedBird

I only recently followed Kirkham on twitter and instagram but I must ask, is he always like this? As in, does he always post this many teasing images of his upcoming comics? I have seen artists who post maybe two or three but this is by far the most I have personally seen. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he does, it has certainly helped to keep up my interest for the annual, but we have already had THIS and its still a whole month away  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> All very cool looking panels. I only hope the actual fight turns out well for Jason. He's been thrown around a little bit too much.


My guess would be that teamwork between Jason and Dick will save the day.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm not sure about anything else, but he also posted a lot for the Deathstroke issues that Red Hood starred in. Looking at his Instagram, Red Hood definitely has very high views there.

----------


## RedBird

Ah, so he's just giving the people what they want. Nice.

----------


## G-Potion

But yeah, looking back he's really given a lot this time. Maybe because it's an annual that he can afford to spoil more than a few panels.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

AK by Carolina Lta

----------


## Alycat

It warms my heart every time I see the helmet without a face.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Make me think of this.


Although Jason is being hit by the blue energy, not producing himself. You can see is coming from the pouch on KGBeast's leg.

----------


## RedBird

MALK animatic with Jason Damian and Dick

----------


## G-Potion

> Although Jason is being hit by the blue energy, not producing himself. You can see is coming from the pouch on KGBeast's leg.


I know. That's for later, when he retaliates with his own blue energy, maybe.

----------


## RedBird

More goodness from Dexter Soy

----------


## G-Potion

Lovely image. Jason looks thinner than usual here.

----------


## Aioros22

That panel as it is isn`t enough t determine the origin of any blue energy with a scale of certainity. Maybe it comes from Beast`s pouch, maybe it comes from Hood`s chest. Maybe they both use similar attacks at the same time while shooting each other.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That panel as it is isn`t enough t determine the origin of any blue energy with a scale of certainity. Maybe it comes from Beast`s pouch, maybe it comes from Hood`s chest. Maybe they both use similar attacks at the same time while shooting each other.


Is pretty easy actually. You simply have to follow the outline of the beam to see it begins on the pouch and spreads outwards in an arc-like shape. If it would be generated by Jason, the expansion would be mirrored, hitting more of Beast's body rather than focusing on a single point. To not mention that Artemis is deflecting the energy with her Ax and Jason is not someone who will endanger his allies by acting recklessly.

----------


## Aioros22

_What, only 400?_

----------


## Aioros22

> Is pretty easy actually. You simply have to follow the outline of the beam to see it begins on the pouch and spreads outwards in an arc-like shape. If it would be generated by Jason, the expansion would be mirrored, hitting more of Beast's body rather than focusing on a single point. To not mention that Artemis is deflecting the energy with her Ax and Jason is not someone who will endanger his allies by acting recklessly.


Your reading makes sense, we`ll soon enough find out how the fight plays.

----------


## G-Potion

> _What, only 400?_


Such a depressing picture for 400.

----------


## Aioros22

Alpha birds want always more  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Because I don`t want G to be sad, to celebrate the 400, how about that time Jason saved the President`s life by virtually kicking KGBeast`s sidecick bomber (I wonder how that went out in the job search pages)

----------


## RedBird

How bout this one? :P [X]

----------


## RedBird

Also I would like to add that this was the description by the Artist:

_Jason Todd
He was an Angel for me. With wonderful black wings. But Joker destroyed his wings and took his life. 
The story of second Robin Jason Todd is the most painful story for me. Now Jason is my favourite character right after Batman.
Art mostly based on game Batman: Arkham Knight, where i saw Jason in the first time. And i saw how Joker tortured him to death.
Amazing game.
But this art is breaking my heart._


I'm genuinely happy that people have discovered Jason through the Arkham Knight game, and more than that, are now big fans of the character  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

As an old favorite of mine, I`m gladly surprised and taken by every new audience that finds and connects with him. That`s deep awesome  :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

> Is pretty easy actually. You simply have to follow the outline of the beam to see it begins on the pouch and spreads outwards in an arc-like shape. If it would be generated by Jason, the expansion would be mirrored, hitting more of Beast's body rather than focusing on a single point. To not mention that Artemis is deflecting the energy with her Ax and Jason is not someone who will endanger his allies by acting recklessly.


All good points. KGbeast must have gotten a serious power up though to be any type of thret with Artemis there.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> All good points. KGbeast must have gotten a serious power up though to be any type of thret with Artemis there.


Dick is also in the story, so either he`s got a major boost or he`s not working alone (might also be he doesn`t take on everyone at the same time, Bizarro is not in the panel). 

I don`t want anyone jobbing but at the end of the day, it`s a RATHO Annual.

----------


## G-Potion

> Because I don`t want G to be sad, to celebrate the 400, how about that time Jason saved the President`s life by virtually kicking KGBeast`s sidecick bomber (I wonder how that went out in the job search pages)


That's better. But... 




> How bout this one? :P [X]


RedBird ruined it.  :Mad:

----------


## RedBird

> RedBird ruined it.


Haha
In my defense though I still thought it was a nice and pleasant addition to find a brand new fan of Jason who ALSO created beautiful fanart. Surely thats enough to brighten folks up, the sad context is Jasons fault really, his tragic backstory is just TOO damn good.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


I really miss the sleeveless hoodie.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I like how it is drawn in that fanart and I also thought the design was okay. I just didn't care for how Medri drew it. It always looked entirely to bulky to me like it was overly padded out for some reason which made no sense at all to me.

----------


## Aioros22

Medri`s style isn`t a particular I`m fond of but it was dinamic. 

That said, I wasn`t hot for the sleevless hoodie when I first laid eyes on it but it grew on me. I`m more a fan of the jacket but I`ve long conciliated that with a hoodie on like you see in AK and fan films.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Alycat

I hated the hoodie at first but I tthink it was more the art style and not the actual hoodie itself.

----------


## Aioros22

Eh, two of my favorite mainstream superheroes (Marvel/DC) wear hoodies, I`m good with them.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

After Rob Williams came with the idiotic decision of make Batman a metahuman at the eyes of the government on SS, I'm much less interested on seeing how he will handle Jason on Trinity.

----------


## G-Potion

Proper celebratory pic. http://sleepmian.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://nanihoosartblog.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aahz

Comics storian did Lost days and Under the Red Hood (I don't think it was allready linked here).

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

Under the Hood played out at Top 8 Defend the North 2017. Watch the whole Top 8 from 4:20:00. The pools are in other videos but they are very entertaining as well.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/163182287

*spoilers:*
THANK YOU SONICFOX!!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> 


That's seriously awesome!! I wonder how they made this. Great for learning poses and perspective as well. Wow!

----------


## SpentShrimp

Most of the Jason Todd/Red Hood art I see posted here is just cringy tumblr garbage.

----------


## G-Potion

> Most of the Jason Todd/Red Hood art I see posted here is just cringy tumblr garbage.


Hate on tumblr all you like, but the artists spent good time and effort making those. No need to generalize them all into "garbage". Or are you saying that the better arts from tumblr are not being posted here?

----------


## Aioros22

> Most of the Jason Todd/Red Hood art I see posted here is just cringy tumblr garbage.


But is it _good_ art sir?

----------


## Aioros22

By the by, not only a good deal of fan or otherwise art posted isn`t exclusive from Tumblr (they don`t run the web, they`re just a popular as shit format to share) but the _content_ (I guess this what you`re trying to aim at) isn`t cringier than some published comics are or have been. Eternal anyone? 

So, FYI try to come out better and don`t call anyone`s artwork "garbage". I`ve studied art and continue to do so and that`s a clear pet peeve of mine. Art takes time and consideration no matter if the aim is to solely have fun or go big. What more, you`re missing the underlying message it brings about the increasing popularity and fanbase of the character, which is never a bad thing.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

That`s a study done for a Storyboard class. Trust me, the "how" can be surmanized in "ton shit of layers"  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

I thought Jason was gonna lose for sure but I didn't care.  It was just that good.   :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Under the Hood played out at Top 8 Defend the North 2017. Watch the whole Top 8 from 4:20:00. The pools are in other videos but they are very entertaining as well.
> 
> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/163182287


Top 8 on Youtube.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Bizarro looks great. I know the storyline doesn`t exist in Injustice but what a missed opportunity would it be having no reference or easter egg regarding the Outlaws. I want pup pup.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Jason is at 9.56

----------


## Aioros22

Still fun to watch  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Bizarro looks great. I know the storyline doesn`t exist in Injustice but what a missed opportunity would it be having no reference or easter egg regarding the Outlaws. I want pup pup.


A bit disappointed that Starfire is more gentle with Bizarro in their dialog.

As an aside, Jason survives the patch yeeee.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Still fun to watch


Did you watch the pools as well? Watch here from 2:30:00 for the greatest rage quit. Funniest match I've seen in this tournament.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/162878726?t=2h10m17s

----------


## SpentShrimp

"Cringy" is the word of choice.

----------


## Aioros22

You`re sounding like a broken record with only two posts. Congratulations.

----------


## RedBird

> You`re sounding like a broken record with only two posts. Congratulations.


Honestly we should be so lucky to have so many artistic people contributing and creating content, theres certain characters I love where I WISH the fandom had more people willing to create content for. I find new fanart of Jason everyday, now thats a dedicated and ALIVE fanbase, definitely a positive thing.

----------


## RedBird

Speaking of......HA
BATDAD tm

----------


## EMarie

I honestly thought that was Dick at first. But really that shirt would work better with Damian. :P

----------


## G-Potion

I love Bruce's expression haha.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> tylerkirkhamartExcited for this to come out! #Redhood and the outlaws annual written by @scottylobdell art by me and colors by @arfprianto! #nightwing #dccomics #drawings #drawing #batman #Gotham #comicartist #comics #comicart

----------


## G-Potion

Kirkham tides us over until the end of the month. Blessed!

----------


## G-Potion

> "Cringy" is the word of choice.


Do better. Either with your own art or your criticism.

----------


## G-Potion

> I honestly thought that was Dick at first. But really that shirt would work better with Damian. :P


Change "sometimes" to "most of the times" and it would. :P

----------


## EMarie

I'm looking forward to getting three books with the Outlaws this month. I just hope Trinity is good and doesn't play out like I think it will.

----------


## RedBird

> Change "sometimes" to "most of the times" and it would. :P


There we go.  :Big Grin: 

No wait, change "most of the times" to "99% of the time" and its a done deal.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm looking forward to getting three books with the Outlaws this month. I just hope Trinity is good and doesn't play out like I think it will.


What are your fears for that arc?

Mine are that we get little to no interaction between the dark trinity to their original counterparts and instead they are basically used as mcguffins throughout the comic, mindless with no agency to their characters until the very end when they are cured, sputter out a simple, 'ugh where am I?' cliche line and are then whisked away as the original trinity and possibly 'magic' trinity continue to fight.

----------


## RedBird

More Goodness from Dexter Soy

----------


## Fergus

> "Cringy" is the word of choice.


Its just wish fulfilment. Tumblr does produce some cringe stuff but there's also a lot of good work on there.

They also very dedicated because these guys produce new art of the Batboys everyday a lot in direct response to stuff put out by DC the same day so you know they are following the boys and buying their books or what ever they guest spot in. That Damian sleepover panel had fanart on sites from here to Asia within minutes of the solicits dropping and it wasn't even a panel from his regular title so kudos to these fans.

----------


## G-Potion

> More Goodness from Dexter Soy


Can't have enough of this suit.

----------


## G-Potion

I like how he has black and white shin belts and thigh holsters differently on each leg.

----------


## RedBird

> I like how he has black and white shin belts and thigh holsters differently on each leg.


Now that you mentioned it, it does in fact look awesome. Honestly theres alot to love about this design. One aspect I cant help but love are the red soles of the shoes, it was also a part of the new52 outfit and I remember thinking it was a sleek addition to his outfit back then too.

----------


## Aioros22

> More Goodness from Dexter Soy


There`s no way this won`t be used somewhere. It`s too good.

----------


## G-Potion

> There`s no way this won`t be used somewhere. It`s too good.


Do it Injustice aaaaaa  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Alycat

> 


The colors are beautiful right here. Jason's jacket also continues to be the best Outlaw member.

----------


## G-Potion

> The colors are beautiful right here. Jason's jacket also continues to be the best Outlaw member.


Nah it's his short(er) sleeve armor top and you know it.

----------


## RedBird

> Nah it's his short(er) sleeve armor top and you know it.


How could you all be so blind. The true star was the red (expressionless) helmet all along.

----------


## G-Potion

> How could you all be so blind. The true star was the red (expressionless) helmet all along.


You only think so because its character regressed so hard in the N52 that getting back on track feels like a development. The armor is the real bold move in a new direction bleh.

----------


## Aioros22

The talking helmet wasn`t character regression, it was drunk metal brah. 

Aesthetics, asthethics.

----------


## G-Potion

Come on, I like Rocafort helmet and all but I need to win an argument here. Character assassination then.  :Mad:

----------


## RedBird

Stop

We were all so ignorant. The true star, the one that has never failed and has often been hidden from us, but remained fabulous none the less. Jasons hair/styles. From middle split curls to windswept to amazing helmet hair to slick back to undercut and now side swept rolled outta bed hair. It has always remained fabulous.The armor has flactuated, the helmet has been through character arcs, the jacket cant deciede if it wants to be a cape or not. But the hair has always been grand. The one true constant.

----------


## G-Potion

> Stop
> 
> We were all so ignorant. The true star, the one that has never failed and has often been hidden from us, but remained fabulous none the less. Jasons hair/styles. From middle split curls to windswept to amazing helmet hair to slick back to undercut and now side swept rolled outta bed hair. It has always remained fabulous.The armor has flactuated, the helmet has been through character arcs, the jacket cant deciede if it wants to be a cape or not. But the hair has always been grand. The one true constant.


OK that makes a lot of sense. Now if they give me the white streak back then I'll completely concur. But will it go well together with his current hair is the question.

However... a pity it's overshadowed by the helmet character most of the time. It needs its own series.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Relevant to the topic.

From http://inkydandy.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

Also _relevant_,

----------


## Alycat

Not respecting a jacket that moves even without wind. Smh you guys have bad taste.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not respecting a jacket that moves even without wind. Smh you guys have bad taste.


It's too OP. Not a good character trait.

----------


## G-Potion

Dexter Soy is at it again. A glimpse of Artemis. And Jason's so small haha.

----------


## EMarie

> What are your fears for that arc?
> 
> Mine are that we get little to no interaction between the dark trinity to their original counterparts and instead they are basically used as mcguffins throughout the comic, mindless with no agency to their characters until the very end when they are cured, sputter out a simple, 'ugh where am I?' cliche line and are then whisked away as the original trinity and possibly 'magic' trinity continue to fight.


Yep, that's my fears too. A story about "the bad guys are using them as puppets to fight" that doesn't do the characters justice. This is the first time Superman is meeting this Bizarro. The first time Artemis is appearing with Wonder Woman in the Rebirth that's not a flashback. It should mean something for all of them. The source on tumblr that claims to be in the know thinks this _might_ build up Jason's soul story but doesn't seem that sure to me. I mean that would be epic if it's properly done.




> The colors are beautiful right here. Jason's jacket also continues to be the best Outlaw member.


Blasphemy. Pup Pup outranks all.

----------


## G-Potion

> Blasphemy. Pup Pup outranks all.


Conceded defeat.  :EEK!:

----------


## adrikito

> more goodness from dexter soy


good image and... If i forgot this... Congratulations for more of 400 pages.




> Dexter Soy is at it again. A glimpse of Artemis. And Jason's so small haha.


We can´t see Artemis... What a Shame..

----------


## G-Potion

> I can´t see the complete image... What a Shame..


Eh not sure what you see, but the image isn't complete. You can see Bizarro and most of Red Hood, then a tiny bit of Artemis.

----------


## adrikito

> Eh not sure what you see, but the image isn't complete. You can see Bizarro and most of Red Hood, then a tiny bit of Artemis.


I saw that... I changed my comment...

----------


## Red obin

> Dexter Soy is at it again. A glimpse of Artemis. And Jason's so small haha.


Is this just a commission?

----------


## G-Potion

> Is this just a commission?


No idea. This one followed a previous pic that Soy said was his personal design for Red Hood. Could be just for fun, but a lot people are hoping to see it used in RHATO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't think Soy does commissions at the moment

----------


## EMarie

So what is everyone looking forward to the most? Trinity, RHATO #13 or the Annual? I think I'm looking forward to the Annual more just to see Jason getting interactions with Dick. I guess this means Dick knows what Jason is doing and the DET team don't?

----------


## Alycat

> So what is everyone looking forward to the most? Trinity, RHATO #13 or the Annual? I think I'm looking forward to the Annual more just to see Jason getting interactions with Dick. I guess this means Dick knows what Jason is doing and the DET team don't?


That would make sense. I mean they werent hostile in their last interactions ( Nightwing 15 and Bane arc). Tbf Dick is inner family and most of the Tec team is mostly associates, so Bruce not telling them wouldnt be a surprise.

For me its Annual> #13> Trinity

----------


## yohyoi

> So what is everyone looking forward to the most? Trinity, RHATO #13 or the Annual? I think I'm looking forward to the Annual more just to see Jason getting interactions with Dick. I guess this means Dick knows what Jason is doing and the DET team don't?


Dick teams up with Jason. They talk. While the 'Tec team doesn't.

----------


## MASTER-OF-SUPRISE

> So what is everyone looking forward to the most? Trinity, RHATO #13 or the Annual? I think I'm looking forward to the Annual more just to see Jason getting interactions with Dick. I guess this means Dick knows what Jason is doing and the DET team don't?


Yeah it's probably the Annual for me too. It does seem weird Dick knows what's going on while Batwoman doesn't.

----------


## Caivu

> Is this just a commission?


Sounds like it's an exclusive print:

Screenshot_20170801-192045.jpg

----------


## SpentShrimp

> You`re sounding like a broken record with only two posts. Congratulations.


I was just answering your question.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Do better. Either with your own art or your criticism.


Okay. The art is very edgy. Most of it depicts Jason in some sad, "whoa is me" state. It's the same thing over and over. Versus the art that Soy posts, it's terrible. You can critique art and not be an artist.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Its just wish fulfilment. Tumblr does produce some cringe stuff but there's also a lot of good work on there.
> 
> They also very dedicated because these guys produce new art of the Batboys everyday a lot in direct response to stuff put out by DC the same day so you know they are following the boys and buying their books or what ever they guest spot in. That Damian sleepover panel had fanart on sites from here to Asia within minutes of the solicits dropping and it wasn't even a panel from his regular title so kudos to these fans.


Understandable, but the majority of what's posted here is just bad. It's like fanart for the whiny Jason Todd era.

----------


## G-Potion

More from Tyler Kirkham

----------


## Caivu

Edit:

Ninja'd at the last second!

----------


## G-Potion

> Okay. The art is very edgy. Most of it depicts Jason in some sad, "whoa is me" state. It's the same thing over and over. Versus the art that Soy posts, it's terrible. You can critique art and not be an artist.


Uhhh you're critiquing art only based on what it depicts and not the technical and artistic aspects? And it's funny how you choose to miss all the non-edgy Jason arts, which are just as many.

----------


## EMarie

> More from Tyler Kirkham


It took me a second to realize Artemis didn't have her shoulder straps on. I kept thinking something was off with her shoulders/arms.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Okay. The art is very edgy. Most of it depicts Jason in some sad, "whoa is me" state. It's the same thing over and over. Versus the art that Soy posts, it's terrible. You can critique art and not be an artist.


That is not really a critique since it doesn't lends itself to discussion nor properly sustains its own argument.

----------


## Caivu

> Tbf Dick is inner family and most of the Tec team is mostly associates, so Bruce not telling them wouldnt be a surprise.


I dunno... I can buy that he wouldn't tell them the specifics, but nothing at all? Not even "if it looks like these guys are acting up, don't worry about it"? That seems a little irresponsible.

----------


## Alycat

> I dunno... I can buy that he wouldn't tell them the specifics, but nothing at all? Not even "if it looks like these guys are acting up, don't worry about it"? That seems a little irresponsible.


Yeah it does but I guess I don't find it ooc either. Then again, maybe he did tell them but Kate doesn't care/ see the Outlaws as dangerous and goes after them anywy.

----------


## EMarie

> I dunno... I can buy that he wouldn't tell them the specifics, but nothing at all? Not even "if it looks like these guys are acting up, don't worry about it"? That seems a little irresponsible.


I think Tynion had it so Tim wasn't informed but figured it out.

I could see it as Kate knowing but not agreeing with his actions. Jason has been hanging out with the Dick, Damian and Bruce since going undercover so they probably were informed or figured it out too.

----------


## Godlike13

Dick is Dick. Im sure there's a lot that he knows that the 'Tec team doesn't. Dick is core family, the 'Tec team are new associates. Some unstable and even villainous.

----------


## Caivu

> Dick is Dick. Im sure there's a lot that he knows that the 'Tec team doesn't. Dick is core family, the 'Tec team are new associates. Some unstable and even villainous.


Those sound like good reasons to give them the bare minimum "don't worry about the Outlaws" talk.




> Yeah it does but I guess I don't find it ooc either. Then again, maybe he did tell them but Kate doesn't care/ see the Outlaws as dangerous and goes after them anywy.





> I could see it as Kate knowing but not agreeing with his actions.


That would just shift the irresponsibilty and make it even dumber. It would mean the team is knowingly interfering with an undercover operation of sorts.

----------


## RedBird

In light of the rhato arc with Batwomans guest appearance

Heres Kate and Jason [X]

----------


## Aioros22

> Okay. The art is very edgy. Most of it depicts Jason in some sad, "whoa is me" state. It's the same thing over and over. Versus the art that Soy posts, it's terrible. You can critique art and not be an artist.


So you were pointing the finger at content. There`s about as many that don`t depict Jason in a tragic light but asking not to have it is a bit silly. It`s a core element of the character and part what makes him both relatable and stronger. 

I think you`ve been around a bit enough to have seen both sides and if not, have fun looking any kind of pages here. You`ll see it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Those sound like good reasons to give them the bare minimum "don't worry about the Outlaws" talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would just shift the irresponsibilty and make it even dumber. It would mean the team is knowingly interfering with an undercover operation of sorts.


From the solicit the situation will likely expand from Bizarro`s actions, not necessarily Jason`s so there`s not much to talk about the act they`re putting on the Underworld. Bizarro is going to undergo a character growth after what happened to him in #12 so it is feesible that Kate just looks as his actions and either thinks they`ve gone too deep - deeper than what Batman and Dick would tell her or that they can`t control their most powerful member which is incidentilly one of the most powerful beings on the planet as well. 

I think that`s the side Kate and her team will approach the Outlaws. I don`t believe she will be written as dumb or whatever but bad as it may sound, the Annual with Dick will likely show us the level of characterization we can expect. If it`s generally good, there`s nothing to worry about. 

Well, other than enjoying the story itself or otherwise.

----------


## G-Potion

> In light of the rhato arc with Batwomans guest appearance
> 
> Heres Kate and Jason [X]


Love it. Their colors are very striking together.

----------


## Aioros22

Lets not forget JayxDick teaming up again  :Cool: 

by Laynesis

----------


## Aioros22

Love his style, Red Hood and Robin/Damian by Dan Mora

----------


## G-Potion

Those are among my favorites.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

I wouldn`t mind Mora taking a crack at variants or interior art someday. Not that I`m complaining about Soy, perish the thought, but an arc here and there..so different but incredibly dinamic all the same.

----------


## Aioros22

In terms of character interaction, I`m looking forward more towards Kate and Hood. I`m far more confident that Dick and Jay will sort of write themselves (and well) but Kate has barely interacted with Jason saved a few panels in Eternal and that book wasn`t stellar in that sort of thing. It`s more a blank page for any writer to tacke on.

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks to Eternal, I just can't get excited for any Jason interaction with the Batfam save for Bruce and Dick. Lobdell cure me of this affliction!!

----------


## Alycat

> Thanks to Eternal, I just can't get excited for any Jason interaction with the Batfam save for Bruce and Dick. Lobdell cure me of this affliction!!


Eternal showed me that weeklies sound nice on paper but terrible in execution, especially art. Even good writers suffered there.

----------


## G-Potion

A different take on the first few pages of original RHATO by https://twitter.com/Moy_R_

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

> Eternal showed me that weeklies sound nice on paper but terrible in execution, especially art. Even good writers suffered there.




That, and it being a big ensemble book played a part too. Nobody bothered to do research on the characters.

----------


## Aahz

> Eternal showed me that weeklies sound nice on paper but terrible in execution, especially art. Even good writers suffered there.


Jason appearances in non weekly Batfamily books were also not that great.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason appearances in non weekly Batfamily books were also not that great.


Jason appearances in other crossover stories not named Robin:War and Eternal aren`t as bad. Not even close.

----------


## Aioros22

And I say that enjoying some moments out of the _first_ Eternal at least, like Jason shitting on Bruce`s so called "security" in the mansion or sitting in the hospital next to Alfred (which he also did with Roy in his own book)




There`s things to enjoy, it`s just that the overall writting was messy to several factors.

----------


## magpieM

Speaking of fanart, I found that Jason was portrayed as a good cook in some batfam fanart here and there. Is it from cannon, or just some "fan-made" feature (like the white streak in hair)?

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of fanart, I found that Jason was portrayed as a good cook in some batfam fanart here and there. Is it from cannon, or just some "fan-made" feature (like the white streak in hair)?


Jason as a good cook is fan-made. But the white streak was canon for a while.

By the way, Welcome, magpieM!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

The headcanon of being a good cook likely comes from Jason having cleaner hideouts than Tim`s _bedroom_. It`s funny how he gets that tag of being this meathead and hobo guy from growing up in the streets when (one) that`s a prejudice that doesn`t necessarily corresponds to any real truth (and two) he used to be a grad A student national wise back when he was younger. And that`s Post Crisis, not Pre (not that it wasn`t a good student there as well). 

This is one of the reasons why dialogue in Eternals in interactions fell off the wagon, because when you box the characters in in just one _thing_ only, you`re making everyone one dimensional. Tim is smart in ways the others aren`t but you don`t need to write Jason as dumb next to Tim just because the other guy is tech savyy compared to him. No even the Turtles are boxed this hard, altho it happens outside the Mirage/Archie/IDW runs. When you read the two characters, you factor in that at one point Tim simply wasn`t that into his schoolarship as _Jason was_. 

One major example of this sort of dialogue was the Hood/Harper interaction.

----------


## Aioros22

When your own teacher tells you ta slow down and have more fun, well...meathead who?

----------


## magpieM

> Jason as a good cook is fan-made. But the white streak was canon for a while.
> 
> By the way, Welcome, magpieM!



 :Big Grin:  Thank you! UTRH brought me here. Good to have so many friends in this community!

----------


## EMarie

I think the fan idea came about because Jason took care of Catherine and himself. So people assume Jason would learn how to cook either from basically raising himself or Alfred. It also serves as a point to show the difference between Bruce and him since in canon Bruce has failed at cooking on an epic scale.

Another theory is that Jason is really into books which has some canon support. As shown by Aioros22 Jason did well in school and enjoyed it. He also shared Bruce's love of first edition books (UTH) and his hideouts usually have filled bookcases.

----------


## Aahz

> Another theory is that Jason is really into books which has some canon support. As shown by Aioros22 Jason did well in school and enjoyed it. He also shared Bruce's love of first edition books (UTH) and his hideouts usually have filled bookcases.


That was also shown in Arkham Knight Genesis, but that's not part of the main continuity.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think the fan idea came about because Jason took care of Catherine and himself. So people assume Jason would learn how to cook either from basically raising himself or Alfred. It also serves as a point to show the difference between Bruce and him since in canon Bruce has failed at cooking on an epic scale.
> 
> Another theory is that Jason is really into books which has some canon support. As shown by Aioros22 Jason did well in school and enjoyed it. He also shared Bruce's love of first edition books (UTH) and his hideouts usually have filled bookcases.


The love for first editions is bar none, one of the coolest things ever done to the character that Winnick cemented in the lore. I recall old scenes of Alfred mentioning how Jason was an avid reader, mostly of history but it`s been long and I wouldn`t manage to place it. I`m thinking Pre Crisis, maybe. 

The scene of Alfred receiving a 1rst edition should always be the prelude of UTRH. That was the tadaah! mood scene that started the whole thing.

----------


## EMarie

I like some of the little touches Lobdell does with Jason's character. In Red Hood/Arsenal Jason wasn't familiar with Game of Thrones. While that is a series of books I took this to mean Jason doesn't watch a lot of tv or go out of his way to get into what's popular.

There's also the somewhat subtle way Lobdell puts in Jason's "urgh rich people" feelings. Subtle because I think he's only shown it like three times. During the Night of the Owls tie in Jason refers to the Court as rich folks. He tells Ollie those with money always think money is the answer to everything. And at the beginning of Rebirth pre-Robin Jason is pretty dismissive of Bruce Wayne. The line with Ollie makes me wonder if Bruce, who can be bad at emotional stuff, uses money with his kids to try to ease tensions. I've seen some parents do that.

----------


## Badou

> A different take on the first few pages of original RHATO by https://twitter.com/Moy_R_


Are these pages for anything or just something the artist did on their own?

----------


## G-Potion

> Are these pages for anything or just something the artist did on their own?


Its a sample the artist did to send to DC.

----------


## Aioros22

Lil`jaybird by tappu


Can we please cast Daddario already?

----------


## Moriarty

> Lil`jaybird by tappu


i don't usually do the 'awww' thing.... but aww.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Uhhh you're critiquing art only based on what it depicts and not the technical and artistic aspects? And it's funny how you choose to miss all the non-edgy Jason arts, which are just as many.


There are some, but I wasn't talking about them. What it depicts distracts from whether or not it's technically good for me. Some of it is, but it's hard to notice.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> That is not really a critique since it doesn't lends itself to discussion nor properly sustains its own argument.


SO because I don't like something, it doesn't "lend itself to discussion"? Gotcha

----------


## SpentShrimp

> So you were pointing the finger at content. There`s about as many that don`t depict Jason in a tragic light but asking not to have it is a bit silly. It`s a core element of the character and part what makes him both relatable and stronger. 
> 
> I think you`ve been around a bit enough to have seen both sides and if not, have fun looking any kind of pages here. You`ll see it.


The tragic stuff is very overdone. They rarely depict anything unique. The vast majority seem to follow the same theme or concept. Which is sad and edgy Jason.

----------


## SpentShrimp

See! This is actually good! A different, artistic take on the start of RHATO.

----------


## G-Potion

> There are some, but I wasn't talking about them. What it depicts distracts from whether or not it's technically good for me. Some of it is, but it's hard to notice.


Then it would be fair to just say you're tired of seeing them, rather than throwing around the word garbage like the sweat and tear these artists have spent means nothing. Also if your personal bias clouds you from acknowledging the artistic skill then I don't think your criticism is good at all.

----------


## G-Potion

> I like some of the little touches Lobdell does with Jason's character. In Red Hood/Arsenal Jason wasn't familiar with Game of Thrones. While that is a series of books I took this to mean Jason doesn't watch a lot of tv or go out of his way to get into what's popular.
> 
> There's also the somewhat subtle way Lobdell puts in Jason's "urgh rich people" feelings. Subtle because I think he's only shown it like three times. During the Night of the Owls tie in Jason refers to the Court as rich folks. He tells Ollie those with money always think money is the answer to everything. And at the beginning of Rebirth pre-Robin Jason is pretty dismissive of Bruce Wayne. The line with Ollie makes me wonder if Bruce, who can be bad at emotional stuff, uses money with his kids to try to ease tensions. I've seen some parents do that.


I love it as well. Jason as a work-oriented person, having little time to catch up with pop culture is fitting for his character. And I also love that his love of book under Lobdell sways more to the side of military tactics/political strategy stuff. A very good take.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> SO because I don't like something, it doesn't "lend itself to discussion"? Gotcha


Yeah because you are free to have your own opinion _but_ you can't go around saying you're offering a critique in that case.

----------


## G-Potion

> See! This is actually good! A different, artistic take on the start of RHATO.


Bear in mind that this is a professional work done to send to DC. The art that you're spitting at are fan works, done out of love and free time from the fans. Shared freely. Just because they can't be on the level of professional work doesn't mean they are bad.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And to be honest, from a technique standpoint there's not a lot of difference between the work of that Zenescope artist with some of the fanartists regularly shared here like InkyDandy or Fishghost. There's a heavy anime inspiration on their works with inkydandy coming slightly ahead simply because she actually colors her works instead of leaving them on B&W.

----------


## Aioros22

Interesting work. A pity the animator chose to re-use that iconic rooftop scene from Intro (I`m sure being iconic is the reason) because I happen to enjoy everything else much more.

----------


## Caivu

More annual stuff:

Screenshot_20170803-115642.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> More annual stuff:
> 
> Screenshot_20170803-115642.jpg


I wonder how much of the book they've shown us already haha. Cool stuff though.

----------


## G-Potion

Strong claim to make. Hope it delivers. From RHATO editor.

----------


## Alycat

> More annual stuff:
> 
> Screenshot_20170803-115642.jpg


I really can't wait to see this. Especially for an explanation for why they can't instantly punch KgBeast's head off.

----------


## G-Potion

RHATO will have new editor.

----------


## Aioros22

Let`s hope that as he says, the future is looking the better. Luckily it will mean a more proactive editorship map for RATHO. Aquaman is another consistant title that won`t have the same drawback because of the character`s status and incredible response for Momoa`s take.

----------


## Aioros22

> I really can't wait to see this. Especially for an explanation for why they can't instantly punch KgBeast's head off.


He`s keeping them at distance and Comics. For all we know it lasts a page. 

Cool thing about the constant head-ups is that for all the teases, it doesn`t reveal much of the story or how the interactions will play. That`s how you trailer hype something.

----------


## G-Potion

Just wondering why it happened. Finger crossed that it does not mean RHATO moves to Bat office or anything.

----------


## Alycat

> He`s keeping them at distance and Comics. For all we know it lasts a page. 
> 
> Cool thing about the constant head-ups is that for all the teases, it doesn`t reveal much of the story or how the interactions will play. That`s how you trailer hype something.


Kirkham has done a great job with that. Just tiny panels not showing much. Movie studios could learn a lesson or two. Also hoping for the new editor to be good. Good editors make a difference.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Just wondering why it happened. Finger crossed that it does not mean *RHATO moves to Bat office* or anything.


That's what I'm the most worried about. And unfortunately, it seems to be the case if the sudden appearance of the batfamily on future issues is any indication.

----------


## G-Potion

> That's what I'm the most worried about. And unfortunately, it seems to be the case if the sudden appearance of the batfamily on future issues is any indication.


Gdi now you're making me even more worried.

----------


## adrikito

> Strong claim to make. Hope it delivers. From RHATO editor.


GOOD. Is good heard this.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason appearances in other crossover stories not named Robin:War and Eternal aren`t as bad. Not even close.


But appart from the Tie.in issues in his own series and Teen Titans, also not really good.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That's what I'm the most worried about. And unfortunately, it seems to be the case if the sudden appearance of the batfamily on future issues is any indication.


To be honest having members of the Bat family appearing in RHATO, on its own, doesn't equate with the title moving to Bat Office at all. For all we know the book stays exactly where it is and simply gets a different editor. I'm more worried that the quality and polish of the book is going to suffer because of the change. Antone was a good fit for Lobdell so far as editors go and I'm sad to lose him.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I think Lobdell should incorporate more forgotten Batman villians. Such as Tally Man.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> To be honest having members of the Bat family appearing in RHATO, on its own, doesn't equate with the title moving to Bat Office at all. For all we know the book stays exactly where it is and simply gets a different editor. I'm more worried that the quality and polish of the book is going to suffer because of the change. Antone was a good fit for Lobdell so far as editors go and I'm sad to lose him.


I hope you're right but you have to admit the timing is suspicious. 

As long as the book has remained outside the Batman office, all the appearances from the Batfamily have been reduced to one-offs or crossovers/shilling of whatever story was going on the main Batman book at the time. And now, just when the editor is moved to another book, all of the sudden we have an annual focused on Jason and Dick and on the regular title we have an arc where the Outlaws are being hunted by Batwoman and her team.


Maybe I'm just too jaded but I fear that if RHATO is indeed folded into the Batman offices, it will get the short end of the stick. With editors derailing Lobdell's ideas (_again_) and Jason being punked left and right to make the other members of the family look good.

----------


## Aahz

> and Jason being punked left and right to make the other members of the family look good.


There is a chance that they might stop this when Jason is their responsibility, Tim was im also treated better when he got back under the controll of the Batoddice.

But I have to admitt that I'm also a little afraid that the annual and the crossover with TEC, will get Dick and Batwoman better showings than Jason. Even if I look back at last two years of RH/A and RHatO I think Lobdell could do a little bit more to make Jason look good.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I hope you're right but you have to admit the timing is suspicious. 
> 
> As long as the book has remained outside the Batman office, all the appearances from the Batfamily have been reduced to one-offs or crossovers/shilling of whatever story was going on the main Batman book at the time. And now, just when the editor is moved to another book, all of the sudden we have an annual focused on Jason and Dick and on the regular title we have an arc where the Outlaws are being hunted by Batwoman and her team.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just too jaded but I fear that if RHATO is indeed folded into the Batman offices, it will get the short end of the stick. With editors derailing Lobdell's ideas (_again_) and Jason being punked left and right to make the other members of the family look good.


I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens but I don't believe there is any correlation between the two events at all. I know some people don't believe in coincidences but sometimes things like this are exactly that and there is no ulterior motive involved. Frankly, whatever the outcome, I'm far more worried that new editor will mess with the quality of this book either by giving Lobdell too much leeway or by becoming a backseat editor that basically rewrites everything he does then I am about what office the book will be in. Neither outcome is a good one for the current book IMO. I also hope to god that the book doesn't revert back to Berganza. That would be a disaster IMHO.




> But I have to admitt that I'm also a little afraid that the annual and the crossover with TEC, will get Dick and Batwoman better showings than Jason. Even if I look back at last two years of RH/A and RHatO I think Lobdell could do a little bit more to make Jason look good.


Both of those events are happening in Jason's own book though. I might be more concerned if they were happening in Nightwing or 'Tec but they aren't. I doubt very seriously that Lobdell is going job Jason just to make Dick or Batwoman and crew look good. I rather think we will get a more balanced approach to their interactions then is the norm for Jason and Bat Family interactions outside of his own book.

----------


## EMarie

The concern comes from Lobdell not really highlighting Jason's abilities. He mostly has team victories when Jason is involved. The most impressive strictly Jason fights I can think of off the cuff was his battle with the Untitled cop and the Iron Rule. The Talon fight didn't get too far before it turned into a more emotional scene. People were confused why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask. 

Lobdell has had Jason state he held back against Bruce. Sure that's already canon since Jason wanted Bruce to make the choice with Joker but it also implies he could have done even better. Jason just hasn't fought any big names by himself and won. Still if it's the whole DET team against him minus Batman, Spoiler and Tim it's more of a challenge than just Batwoman.

----------


## Assam

Few things:

- Not happy about an editorial change. Mostly because I don't know how much the current editor is responsible for Lobdell suddenly becoming a good writer with Rebirth. 
- That said, ANYONE would be a better choice than Berganza. 
- 



> People were confused why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask.


Yeah that was a little weird. 

-



> Still if it's the whole DET team against him minus Batman, Spoiler and Tim it's more of a challenge than just Batwoman.


All of them against him would be a bit worse than "More of a challenge." I perceive Jason as being on Dick's level, but Batwoman aside, the 'Tec team are all basically super powered (Luke's suit, JPV's enhancements, Cass's Cass, and Basil's _actual_ super powers), so even just one on one, with the possible exception of Luke,  I'd put my money on any of them...which is why it's a good thing Red Him has Red Her and Bizarro as friends.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Alycat

If he does get moved under the Bat group then there is an opportunity for better promotion with the book and more consistent characterization though.I mean it makes sense. Jason is the title character despite being a team book and he is bat. Bat editorial promotes their books.

----------


## Aioros22

Couple tibits given the latest developments: 

- People are actually weirded that Black Mask lasted as long as he did (which wasn`t that long to begin with?) I thought the story was clear on why Jason didn`t just cap the guy, apart from not letting Mask have Bizarro for himself. 

- Let`s see what happens with the change. I want a more proactive editorship but not at the cost of quality. And *fuck* Berganza, any editor is better than that pile of hack. Lousy person, lousy professional, terrible choices, whinny bastard, and the list goes on. I hope he`s not even in consideration for the book again. Loedbell requires less of a pal and more someone who pushes him to his best work. 

- Tec got Luke, Basil and Cass but RATHO got Artemis and Bizarro, the dark WW and Superman  :Cool:  with Hood and Kate being the Batmen. Interesting matchups looking ahead!


_
Let´srambleeee_

----------


## Aioros22

> If he does get moved under the Bat group then there is an opportunity for better promotion with the book and more consistent characterization though.I mean it makes sense. Jason is the title character despite being a team book and he is bat. Bat editorial promotes their books.


They need to think carefully with this. I want someone still pushing the RATHO creatives to their best work without losing a somewhat more freedom state of character. Does that make any sense? 

If it ends up in the Bat ofices, I want someone who draws a line and doesn`t put Jason in every single banana crossover there will be just because he`s there and if not, I want someone promoting the book better. As long quality is there, either balancing device works for me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The concern comes from Lobdell not really highlighting Jason's abilities. He mostly has team victories when Jason is involved. The most impressive strictly Jason fights I can think of off the cuff was his battle with the Untitled cop and the Iron Rule. The Talon fight didn't get too far before it turned into a more emotional scene. People were confused why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask.


I heartily disagree with that as I think Lobdell highlights Jason's skills just fine. Also I don't remember anyone being confused about why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask. 1. That last fight involved Black Mask taking control of Bizarro and a normal human, no matter their skill level, isn't just supposed to curb stomp a Superman clone. It doesn't and shouldn't work that way. 2. It was Jason, himself, who discovered that Black Mask's control of Bizzaro was effecting him in a negative way and so he simply was stretching out the fight there in order for that negative effect to take Black Mask out on its own. Remember Jason had promised Batman not to kill while on this mission so that's why he just didn't waltz in and kill the guy from the get go.




> Lobdell has had Jason state he held back against Bruce. Sure that's already canon since Jason wanted Bruce to make the choice with Joker but it also implies he could have done even better. Jason just hasn't fought any big names by himself and won. Still if it's the whole DET team against him minus Batman, Spoiler and Tim it's more of a challenge than just Batwoman.


I suppose that could have been read that way but again I don't agree. He was only holding back so that he didn't actually do any permanent damage there and not because he thought himself inferior to Batman. RHATO is a team book so of course he isn't going to be fighting by himself very often but I don't see how that is a bad thing or even how it downplays his own abilities. You want to see things like that look at his appearances in Bat crossovers or in the Eternals.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, Lodebell highlights Jason`s tactical thinking pretty well. 

Alex Antone puting the dare  :Stick Out Tongue: 

https://twitter.com/Alex_Antone/stat...67975578337280

----------


## Aahz

> The concern comes from Lobdell not really highlighting Jason's abilities. He mostly has team victories when Jason is involved. The most impressive strictly Jason fights I can think of off the cuff was his battle with the Untitled cop and the Iron Rule. The Talon fight didn't get too far before it turned into a more emotional scene. People were confused why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask. 
> 
> Lobdell has had Jason state he held back against Bruce. Sure that's already canon since Jason wanted Bruce to make the choice with Joker but it also implies he could have done even better. Jason just hasn't fought any big names by himself and won. Still if it's the whole DET team against him minus Batman, Spoiler and Tim it's more of a challenge than just Batwoman.


Exactly.

Jason gets smacked around a lot in his own book (I mean seriously how often did his helmet destroyed in the last time) and has hardly ever win big fights on his own. In comparison to all the crazy stuff the other Batfamily members are doing in their books, thats a little weak.

----------


## Alycat

> They need to think carefully with this. I want someone still pushing the RATHO creatives to their best work without losing a somewhat more freedom state of character. Does that make any sense? 
> 
> If it ends up in the Bat ofices, I want someone who draws a line and doesn`t put Jason in every single banana crossover there will be just because he`s there and if not, I want someone promoting the book better. As long quality is there, either balancing device works for me.


All of that is understandable although thy have been better with crossovers. I didn't like Monster Men but it wasn't bad. I also have problems with creative choices like Bludhaven. But everything you said makes perfect sense.

----------


## Alycat

> Exactly.
> 
> Jason gets smacked around a lot in his own book (I mean seriously how often did his helmet destroyed in the last time) and has hardly ever win big fights on his own. In comparison to all the crazy stuff the other Batfamily members are doing in their books, thats a little weak.


Except Babs of course. Also Dick gets beat up quite an it. It's not odd at all.

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly.
> 
> Jason gets smacked around a lot in his own book (I mean seriously how often did his helmet destroyed in the last time) and has hardly ever win big fights on his own. In comparison to all the crazy stuff the other Batfamily members are doing in their books, thats a little weak.


His helmet gets broken as often Bruce`s cape gets ripped or Dick`s butt gets slapped. 

They don`t fare that much better compared to him, mostly because a hero not having bruises when fighting is boring.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah everytime I thought "it breaks again?", I immediately tried to envision it not broken, and the story would lose much emotional effect without Jason's raw expression.

----------


## EMarie

> Few things:
> - Not happy about an editorial change. Mostly because I don't know how much the current editor is responsible for Lobdell suddenly becoming a good writer with Rebirth.


Lobdell has done good work in the past. I liked his work at Marvel and at other companies. According to a source that claims to be in the know on tumblr 75% of his ideas at DC get rejected. Given the complaints about New 52 many creators had I wouldn't be surprised if it negatively affected his work. I still love how he work Jason before but the Rebirth book is more polished.




> Yeah that was a little weird.


There's a theory that Roman Sionis wasn't supposed to be Black Mask and if that's true it would make sense.




> All of them against him would be a bit worse than "More of a challenge." I perceive Jason as being on Dick's level, but Batwoman aside, the 'Tec team are all basically super powered (Luke's suit, JPV's enhancements, Cass's Cass, and Basil's _actual_ super powers), so even just one on one, with the possible exception of Luke,  I'd put my money on any of them...which is why it's a good thing Red Him has Red Her and Bizarro as friends.


I'm talking about team vs. team instead of a simple Jason vs. Kate match. Lobdell hasn't used it much since the first arc but he wanted to show Jason has a tactical mind. Something that has been shown in the past too. If he is I wouldn't say any of the DET team would instantly win against him.




> I heartily disagree with that as I think Lobdell highlights Jason's skills just fine. Also I don't remember anyone being confused about why he didn't instantly win against Black Mask. 1. That last fight involved Black Mask taking control of Bizarro and a normal human, no matter their skill level, isn't just supposed to curb stomp a Superman clone. It doesn't and shouldn't work that way. 2. It was Jason, himself, who discovered that Black Mask's control of Bizzaro was effecting him in a negative way and so he simply was stretching out the fight there in order for that negative effect to take Black Mask out on its own. Remember Jason had promised Batman not to kill while on this mission so that's why he just didn't waltz in and kill the guy from the get go.


Lobdell does better than most writers but compared to the version Winick wrote? It's the one area I think Lobdell needs to work on with Jason's characterization. I saw people wondering why Jason didn't instantly take BM out since Sionis has never been shown as a threat to him. It has nothing to do with Bizarro since BM is able to aim a gun by then and Jason escapes because his soon-to-be teammates distract him. One on one Jason should be superior to Sionis and until Bizarro crashed in BM had been focused on Jason not controlling Bizarro. I'm talking about skill not killing.




> I suppose that could have been read that way but again I don't agree. He was only holding back so that he didn't actually do any permanent damage there and not because he thought himself inferior to Batman. RHATO is a team book so of course he isn't going to be fighting by himself very often but I don't see how that is a bad thing or even how it downplays his own abilities. You want to see things like that look at his appearances in Bat crossovers or in the Eternals.


I don't know what you mean here. I meant Jason was holding himself back with Bruce not anything to do with perceived inferiority. I was stating that Lobdell still implies Jason is skilled, more skilled than we even saw in UTH. I think Lobdell is doing well writing Jason but he needs to let his skills shine more.

----------


## G-Potion

According to the BM fight and how he took down the General in the Artemis arc, both times he was kinda chill even at gunpoint that it felt to me he was playing the waiting game. The way he reversed his situation with BM, using the hidden blade in his boot also suggested to me that he had the resources to get out of a pinch but preferred to do it last minute. In both cases, when he'd had enough information and decided 'that's it', he didn't break a sweat taking both down later in like, one panel.

----------


## Caivu

Even more from the annual:

Screenshot_20170804-190416.jpg

----------


## Alycat

Aww they're all happy. Also I wonder how it's decided what panels can be shown?

----------


## Caivu

> Aww they're all happy. Also I wonder how it's decided what panels can be shown?


If DC doesn't yell at them about it, it's okay to post.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
I do recall that Tommy Lee Edwards had to take down a panel or two of Mother Panic a few months back because of that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Lobdell does better than most writers but compared to the version Winick wrote? It's the one area I think Lobdell needs to work on with Jason's characterization. I saw people wondering why Jason didn't instantly take BM out since Sionis has never been shown as a threat to him. It has nothing to do with Bizarro since BM is able to aim a gun by then and Jason escapes because his soon-to-be teammates distract him. One on one Jason should be superior to Sionis and until Bizarro crashed in BM had been focused on Jason not controlling Bizarro. I'm talking about skill not killing.


Jason was caught by surprise and BM was waving around the antidote gun so I imagine Jason didn't want to lose, what at that point, was their only chance at breaking BM's control over Bizzaro. I wouldn't be surprised if Jason was already calculatingly how best to take it from him prior to that distraction though it helped make it easier for him to make his move there. 

As for taking BM out directly I believe that was exactly what Jason was initially planning to do by luring him back to his HQ where he had an antidote to the virus hidden. I think that Jason realised pretty quickly that it wasn't enough to simply take him out once BM had injected himself with the virus and he concluded that he needed some way to counteract the virus first before taking him down. 




> I was stating that Lobdell still implies Jason is skilled, more skilled than we even saw in UTH. I think Lobdell is doing well writing Jason but he needs to let his skills shine more.


One of Jason's many skills is thinking on his feet and coming up with plans on the fly and he does that plenty of times during this fight with BM. Believing that distance might weaken BM's hold on Bizzaro he tries luring the guy back to his HQ where he also has a backup plan in place which involved shooting BM with the antidote to to techno-organic virus which would piut an end to the threat. When that plan went south he quickly concluded that the virus was doing a number on BM and if he could get it to move more quickly through BM's bloodstream it would take care of the job for him. How's this not Lobdell not allowing his skills to shine?

----------


## Caivu

> One of Jason's many skills is thinking on his feet and coming up with plans on the fly and he does that plenty of times during this fight with BM.


Just as an aside, this made me a lot more excited for Outlaws vs 'Tec, especially if it splits out to be Jason vs Kate as it seems to be. Because they both do this very thing. If Lobdell holds to that... I mean, I already expected this to be fun, but that would makes things go to 11, I think.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Just as an aside, this made me a lot more excited for Outlaws vs 'Tec, especially if it splits out to be Jason vs Kate as it seems to be. Because they both do this very thing. If Lobdell holds to that... I mean, I already expected this to be fun, but that would makes things go to 11, I think.


Yeah, I think this could end up being an interesting fight for that reason and on all fronts. A possible showdown between Jason and Kate has me hyped. I'd also be curious how a fight between Cass and Artemis would go down. Cass is extremely skilled but Artemis is strong, which I think balances it out somewhat.

----------


## Aahz

> Just as an aside, this made me a lot more excited for Outlaws vs 'Tec, especially if it splits out to be Jason vs Kate as it seems to be. Because they both do this very thing. If Lobdell holds to that... I mean, I already expected this to be fun, but that would makes things go to 11, I think.


I think Jason and Artemis should stomp Kate and Cass pretty easy, Kate shouldn't be in Jasons league and Cass not in Artemis'.

----------


## Caivu

> I think Jason and Artemis should stomp Kate and Cass pretty easy, Kate shouldn't be in Jasons league and Cass not in Artemis'.


You're underestimating them both, I think.  :Smile: 

(And based on #15's cover, Cass isn't against Artemis anyway)

----------


## Aahz

> You're underestimating them both, I think. 
> 
> (And based on #15's cover, Cass isn't against Artemis anyway).


Kate doesn't have All-Cast Training and Cass is not an Amazon.

And in Jasons case it's time that Lobdell really shows that he isn't "Number 7".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Even more from the annual:
> 
> Screenshot_20170804-190416.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> Kate doesn't have All-Cast Training and Cass is not an Amazon.


Okay, and? That doesn't mean it's automatically going to be a stomp (and it probably won't be, because that wouldn't be fun).

----------


## Aahz

> Okay, and? That doesn't mean it's automatically going to be a stomp (and it probably won't be, because that wouldn't be fun).


I think the Outlwas stomping the TEC team could be fun. 

I Just think that they should stop writing Jason as he was average in every skill. And I still don't see the justification why they treat Kate like she was so super experienced.

----------


## Assam

> I think Jason and Artemis should stomp Kate and Cass pretty easy, Kate shouldn't be in Jasons league and Cass not in Artemis'.


Well, Kate, like it or not, while not having too many feats in Rebirth, has been getting pushed as an equal to Batman, so I don't think it'll be unrealistic to see her at least hold her own. (Though as I've mentioned before, both Jason and Kate are by far the weakest members of their respective teams.) 

Cass vs Artemis would be cool I think, but from the looks of the cover, she and Basil are gonna be taking on Bizarro. Now normally, I wouldn't think Cass would even need Basil's help for him, but then I remembered that Bizarro is going to be a genius by the time this fight comes around, and the last time Cass fought a bizarro, she won by outsmarting it. So yeah, the giant clay man is gonna be of assistance. 

Really, the MOST one-sided match from that cover is JPV and Luke vs Artemis. I love those boys...but I don't see how they're gonna be able to do anything to an Amazon. Most likely they'll be the ones having to come up with a defensive strategy. (And really, all these fights are good set-ups to see some real strategic fighting by all the parties)




> I think the Outlwas stomping the TEC team could be fun.


Not everyone prefers the Outlaws. 





> And in Jasons case it's time that Lobdell really shows that he isn't "Number 7".


What are you referring to? Has Jason within the comics actually be called "The 7th strongest Batfam member" or some junk? Because if so, that's hilarious, and by my count of the current BatFam, is basically true.




> Cass is not an Amazon.


Not entirely comparable but Cass once did put a smack down on Hawkgirl.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, Kate, like it or not, while not having too many feats in Rebirth, has been getting pushed as an equal to Batman,


Which is imo not really deserved.




> What are you referring to? Has Jason within the comics actually be called "The 7th strongest Batfam member" or some junk?


Kings list on twitter. 




> Because if so, that's hilarious, and by my count of the current BatFam, is basically true.


 Depends on who you count as Batfamily. But imo he should be at least equal to Dick.

----------


## Aahz

> Cass vs Artemis would be cool I think, but from the looks of the cover, she and Basil are gonna be taking on Bizarro. Now normally, I wouldn't think Cass would even need Basil's help for him, but then I remembered that Bizarro is going to be a genius by the time this fight comes around, and the last time Cass fought a bizarro, she won by outsmarting it. So yeah, the giant clay man is gonna be of assistance.


Bizzaro is Kryptonian, Cass can't really hurt him. And since he has ice vision he could take out Basil quite easily.

----------


## Aioros22

A writers job isnt to validate or otherwise, another guys opinion on twitter. You get rilled up about something King would never write and meet print. 

Sure, Loedbell prioritizes tactical thinking but Jason hasen't had a fight where he couldn't win against soneone his league. In fact, he is constantly pitted on situations bigger than himself.

----------


## yohyoi

> Not everyone prefers the Outlaws.


I prefer the Outlaws, but I don't want them to win.

If I'm Batman, I expect the 'Tec team to handle almost anything below the Justice League. The Outlaws would be a challenge but Batman trained the 'Tec team. They should know how to handle Superman level threats. The 'Tec team would win through tactics and strategy, the Batman way.

----------


## Assam

> Which is imo not really deserved.


And I don't entirely disagree, but it's what the status quo is right now, so we've got to run with it.




> Kings list on twitter.


Oh yeah, that fun little nerd war inciter.  :Wink: 




> Depends on who you count as Batfamily. But imo he should be at least equal to Dick.


I think King's list is really weird in a lot of ways, especially with Duke being on it at _all_ (Though it makes slightly more sense if you remember he was only talking H2H). Running with my definition of the extended BatFamily though (Any hero whose ties primarily lie in the Batverse), counting people who are currently around, #6/#7 is the right spot for Dick and Jason, those above them being IMO Claire, Basil, Cass, Bruce and JPV.

----------


## Aioros22

> Just as an aside, this made me a lot more excited for Outlaws vs 'Tec, especially if it splits out to be Jason vs Kate as it seems to be. Because they both do this very thing. If Lobdell holds to that... I mean, I already expected this to be fun, but that would makes things go to 11, I think.


I'm expecting quite the tactical fu from these two. The way they've been written, they come second only to Batman in that regard.

----------


## Aioros22

> I prefer the Outlaws, but I don't want them to win.
> 
> If I'm Batman, I expect the 'Tec team to handle almost anything below the Justice League. The Outlaws would be a challenge but Batman trained the 'Tec team. They should know how to handle Superman level threats. The 'Tec team would win through tactics and strategy, the Batman way.


This isn't a superman level threat, it's a TrinityTM  threat  :Wink:  and they got one if the dirtiest thinkers in the game.

----------


## Assam

> Bizzaro is Kryptonian, Cass can't really hurt him. And since he has ice vision he could take out Basil quite easily.





> If I'm Batman, I expect the 'Tec team to handle almost anything below the Justice League. The Outlaws would be a challenge but Batman trained the 'Tec team. They should know how to handle Superman level threats. The 'Tec team would win through tactics and strategy, the Batman way.


Yeah, a non-idiot Bizarro and Artemis ARE out of the 4 'Tec team members' weight class, which is why I'm hoping we'll get to see some cool strategies. Jason and Kate may be their groups' go-to tactics people, but everyone else involved has displayed clever plans before, or at least shown to be intelligent.

----------


## yohyoi

People always underestimate Dick when it's said many times he is near Bruce's level and is the one most likely to surpass him. Dick will beat Supeman level threats but people won't accept it. smh

----------


## Aioros22

More than onde guy is near Bruce level and has beat people outside their weight class. 

It's okay Dick, you still pop up in the Annual to kick some ass  :Wink:

----------


## yohyoi

> This isn't a superman level threat, it's a TrinityTM  threat  and they got one if the dirtiest thinkers in the game.


The Dark Trinity is not near the DC Trinity. I love the Outlaws, but you are clearly underestimating Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman. In their good day, any of these three are ridiculously powerful and can possibly beat the Dark Trinity alone.

----------


## Assam

> The Dark Trinity is not near the DC Trinity. I love the Outlaws, but you are clearly underestimating Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman. In their good day, any of these three are ridiculously powerful and can possibly beat the Dark Trinity alone.


Unless he'd specially prepped for them, I'm not really sure how Bruce would handle Artemis, let alone with Bizarro and Jason in the fight as well.

----------


## Aioros22

> The Dark Trinity is not near the DC Trinity. I love the Outlaws, but you are clearly underestimating Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman. In their good day, any of these three are ridiculously powerful and can possibly beat the Dark Trinity alone.


That would be a no, of which has nothing to do with thinking whether they are all exactly equal to the real Trinity or not. It`s the collective set of abilities they share that makes them a Trinity threat.

- I don`t think Superman would handle these three alone. Not unless you`re talking about a real high showcase. Bizarro on it`s own is a handful, never someone Clark easily deals with and this isn`t classic dumb Bizarro. And Jason? He`s the guy who will use kriptonite bullets if he needs to  :Stick Out Tongue: 

That`s another thing about skillsets. You have batgod on one side and the on the other, the guy that knows how batgod thinks. That usually comes in play in their bouts, the most recent being the first issue of Rebirth.

----------


## Aioros22

Obviously, the RealTrinityTM is ahead in sheer experience, exposure and teamwork but the DarkTrinityTM bring the table similar qualities with dirtier playing. They will do things the others won`t.

----------


## Aahz

Without (blue?) Kryptonite, Magic or maybe Red Sunlight (or wich ever color works on Bizzaro, if any) pretty much the only way you can handle Bizzaro is to convince him not to fight. 

And even Superman can probably not take him down without risking a lot of collateral damage (basically like the Superman Zod fight in Man of Steel or the fight of Superman against Captain Marvel in the Justice League catoon). 


In case of Wonder Woman and Artemis I have to admit that I still don't really know how power full they exactly are.

----------


## yohyoi

> Unless he'd specially prepped for them, I'm not really sure how Bruce would handle Artemis, let alone with Bizarro and Jason in the fight as well.


Batman has done crazier things. There are a lot of BatGod feats which makes it possible to solo the Outlaws. Even Superman and Wonder Woman have a list of feats that show how much superior they are to their Outlaw counterpart. There is a reason why the DC Trinity will rescue the Dark Trinity. They are obviously way superior.

----------


## Caivu

> I think the Outlwas stomping the TEC team could be fun.


Why?




> I Just think that they should stop writing Jason as he was average in every skill. And I still don't see the justification why they treat Kate like she was so super experienced.


Are you unfamiliar with what she's done? This is not the first time you've downplayed her abilities.




> Well, Kate, like it or not, while not having too many feats in Rebirth, has been getting pushed as an equal to Batman, so I don't think it'll be unrealistic to see her at least hold her own. (Though as I've mentioned before, both Jason and Kate are by far the weakest members of their respective teams.)


It worth noting that not only Rebirth stuff counts for this.




> Oh yeah, that fun little nerd war inciter.


Oh damn, I didn't even think about that. It's probably not the case, but it's gonna suck if the main reason for this story is to "get back" at that list.

----------


## Alycat

No matter what happens, nothing will be as bad as that time Deathstroke beat up all of League members in Identity Crises. Fights have so many aspects to them when it's hero vs hero.

----------


## Assam

> No matter what happens, nothing will be as bad as that time Deathstroke beat up all of League members in Identity Crises.


I'd say Tim one-shotting EvilCass, Prometheus soloing The League in Cry for Justice, and Jason one-shotting Shiva are all equally as bad. (Prometheus's win is probably the absolute _worst_ though because of how it was shown) Plenty of other examples of ludicrous wins and beat-downs as well.

----------


## yohyoi

> No matter what happens, nothing will be as bad as that time Deathstroke beat up all of League members in Identity Crises. Fights have so many aspects to them when it's hero vs hero.


If it's hero vs hero, there is normally a pecking order. There are long time rules like Cass being the top of the Bat family or Dick being the top of the Robins. It's normally repeated throughout history and widely accepted by most writers.

The middle pack tends to change more. A good example is Tim vs Damian. There are instances Tim beats Damian and the opposite happened too. The pecking order shifts in this part from time to time.

----------


## Alycat

> I'd say Tim one-shotting EvilCass, Prometheus soloing The League in Cry for Justice, and Jason one-shotting Shiva are all equally as bad. (Prometheus's win is probably the absolute _worst_ though because of how it was shown) Plenty of other examples of ludicrous wins and beat-downs as well.


I forgot about Prometheus. Mostly because I like to forget about Cry for Justice.And evil Cass now that you mention it. The Deathstroke example just stands out to me because of Wally and Kyle. That a writer  and some editor sat down and said "Yes.This makes sense."  Just like tentacle Jason.

----------


## Assam

> That a writer  and some editor sat down and said "Yes.This makes sense."


I wonder this about many things which have happened over the last 15 years. 




> Just like tentacle Jason.


Much as I harp on the low-quality of the Nu52 RHatO, the way Jason was portrayed there was still good....I don't think _anyone_ Pre-Nu52 had ANY idea what to actually do with Jason once his initial return story was over.

----------


## Aahz

> Are you unfamiliar with what she's done?


In comparison with the other Batfamily members not that much, at least not enough that she should be considered equal to Batman imo.

----------


## Alycat

> I wonder this about many things which have happened over the last 15 years. 
> 
> 
> 
> Much as I harp on the low-quality of the Nu52 RHatO, the way Jason was portrayed there was still good....I don't think _anyone_ Pre-Nu52 had ANY idea what to actually do with Jason once his initial return story was over.


I mean I liked Morrison Jason but yeah they were kinda stuck with him. There's only so far you can go when leaving him a villian and Dick not dying.

----------


## Caivu

> In comparison with the other Batfamily members not that much, at least not enough that she should be considered equal to Batman imo.


She's not considered equal to Batman. That's not something that shows up anywhere, under any writer. She's just very, very good, and _that's_ been consistent from day 1.

And yes, she _has_ done quite a bit, despite not being around as long. I just don't know why you keep acting like she's some kind of rookie, because that's so far off the mark.

----------


## Aioros22

> Batman has done crazier things. There are a lot of BatGod feats which makes it possible to solo the Outlaws. Even Superman and Wonder Woman have a list of feats that show how much superior they are to their Outlaw counterpart. There is a reason why the DC Trinity will rescue the Dark Trinity. They are obviously way superior.


Yeah, they have a more storied number of appearances and are" tehTrinity" but a far as crossover intent goes (and fun) when was the last time you seen Superman stomping a Bizarro? How often does that happen? Batgod imples prep and how often does he do it nowadays? How often did it worked against people who know how he thinks and have no qualms turning the game?




> There is a reason why the DC Trinity will rescue the Dark Trinity. They are obviously way superior


That`s not the reason presented in the premise of the story. They are rescuing them because the Outlaws are being controlled, which is something nobody is bulletproof at.

Just look at Superman.

----------


## Aioros22

That said, Azrael is a wild-card to Tec`s team. The sad part of this is that it`s likely one issue and there`s too many interactions I`d like to happen. Jason`s never had much interaction play with Kate and Cass in the Eternals and I always wanted some between him and Jean Paul due to being hard hitters compared to Bruce`s philosophy.

----------


## Assam

> That said, Azrael is a wild-card to Tec`s team. The sad part of this is that it`s likely one issue and there`s too many interactions I`d like to happen. Jason`s never had much interaction play with Kate and Cass in the Eternals and I always wanted some between him and Jean Paul due to being hard hitters compared to Bruce`s philosophy.


Hopefully the 'Tec team are in the rest of the arc beyond the two solicited issues.

----------


## Caivu

> Hopefully the 'Tec team are in the rest of the arc beyond the two solicited issues.


It's a four-issue arc according to the trade description recently released. If so, the obvious thing is that the last two issues will be the two groups teaming up.

----------


## Aioros22

I missed that, that`s funtastic news. It`s safe to say that we`ll get plenty of interactions then.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's a four-issue arc according to the trade description recently released. If so, the obvious thing is that the last two issues will be the two groups teaming up.


I think you're getting your info confused, the second TP only covers Who's Artemis and the third one hasn't been solicited yet.
*
RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS VOL. 2: WHO IS ARTEMIS? TP
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by MIRKO COLAK, KENNETH ROCAFORT, DEXTER SOY and others
Cover by NICOLA SCOTT
With the dangerous Black Mask defeated, the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall and shocking secrets from Artemis’ past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more are revealed in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits! Collects issues #7-11!
On sale OCTOBER 4 • 128 pg, FC, $14.99 US*

----------


## Assam

> I think you're getting your info confused, the second TP only covers Who's Artemis and the third one hasn't been solicited yet.
> *
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS VOL. 2: WHO IS ARTEMIS? TP
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by MIRKO COLAK, KENNETH ROCAFORT, DEXTER SOY and others
> Cover by NICOLA SCOTT
> With the dangerous Black Mask defeated, the Outlaws gear up for their journey to Bana-Mighdall and shocking secrets from Artemis’ past come to light! Who is this mysterious Amazon warrior? What is her relation to Wonder Woman? And what makes her quest for the Bow of Ra so personal? Answers to all this and more are revealed in a thrilling new adventure with your favorite band of misfits! Collects issues #7-11!
> On sale OCTOBER 4 • 128 pg, FC, $14.99 US*


I believe they're referring to this: 

http://edelweiss.abovethetreeline.co...sku=140127837X

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Ah I see. Well, that doesn't guarantees the 'Tec team will remain a major player as the plot moves forward, especially if plans didn't changed and the original Outlaws appear as Lobdell promised.

----------


## Aioros22

Lets hope they stay over an issue to capitalize on the possibilities of character interactions. I don`t want to have to wait for another Eternal for that to happen. It`s always gonna look better in this book, guaranteed.

----------


## Caivu

> Ah I see. Well, that doesn't guarantees the 'Tec team will remain a major player as the plot moves forward, especially if plans didn't changed and the original Outlaws appear as Lobdell promised.


I don't think anyone has said they would. But it _would_ make sense for them to stay for an additional two issues, just for that story.

----------


## Assam

> Ah I see. Well, that doesn't guarantees the 'Tec team will remain a major player as the plot moves forward, especially if plans didn't changed and the original Outlaws appear as Lobdell promised.


Well, it's superhero tradition for them to fight and then team-up so I could definitely see them continuing to be a part of the story.  :Smile: 

Hopefully the rest of us are right. So many great potential character interactions to see here. 

 If Lobdell brought them back and wrote Roy and Kory like he has in the past, getting them instead wouldn't be so much a step down from the 'Tec  team as a plummet off a mountain.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I prefer the Outlaws, but I don't want them to win.
> 
> If I'm Batman, I expect the 'Tec team to handle almost anything below the Justice League. The Outlaws would be a challenge but Batman trained the 'Tec team. They should know how to handle Superman level threats. The 'Tec team would win through tactics and strategy, the Batman way.


I think you are forgetting that Jason is Bat trained as well not to mention all of his extra training beyond that with both the All Caste and the LoA. Plus Jason is also very good at thinking on his feet. Artemis has warrior training and is far older then she appears. At the point that this fight is going to occur Bizarro is not going to be the typical and easily outsmarted Bizzaro. It isn't as if the Tec team is the only one here who can employ tactics and strategy. Personally I think this fight is a bit more evenly matched then you seem to.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Actually, with a genius Bizarro and the Bow of Ra on their midst, any other outcome different to the Outlaws wiping the floor with them it will be bad writing.

----------


## Alycat

Th biggest threat on Tec is Clayface. I agree that it seems really one sided now.

----------


## Aioros22

I can almost bet the Bow of Ra won`t be used since it`s a bit OP for a situation born out of miscommunication or misderection about Bizarro`s actions. Likewise, his genius intelect not only will be fresh new, he will likely be contained somehow and I`m not sure whether Jason and Artemis won`t be the ones to parent him in to clear the whole thing. 

I expect a nice scuffle with the Outlaws having that edge, a "See? We could have done it if we wanted to, now calm down".

----------


## Aioros22

> Th biggest threat on Tec is Clayface. I agree that it seems really one sided now.


Don`t Forget Azrael, he`s a wild-card.

----------


## Moriarty

> Don`t Forget Azrael, he`s a wild-card.


agreed.  a battle between Jason and Azrael would be something to see.

----------


## Caivu

> Actually, with a genius Bizarro and the Bow of Ra on their midst, any other outcome different to the Outlaws wiping the floor with them it will be bad writing.


Then why even bother having them show up at all?

If it really is so uneven, the sensible thing is that _something_ will be used even out the odds. Otherwise, what's the point?




> I can almost bet the Bow of Ra won`t be used since it`s a bit OP for a situation born out of miscommunication or misderection about Bizarro`s actions.


This. Pretty sure that bow is enough to outright kill the entire 'Tec team, and we know that's not happening.

----------


## Assam

> agreed.  a battle between Jason and Azrael would be something to see.


While JPV wasn't actually in control of himself, we just saw that the System gives him enough power to put up a good fight against an in-sync Cass and Kate. I have no doubts that Jason could come up with a clever plan, but in a direct fight, I think JPV has him totally outclassed, just as Cass and Clayface outclass him.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason dealt well with Cass both times  :Wink: 

The hostilites are open season!

----------


## Alycat

> Jason dealt well with Cass both times 
> 
> The hostilites are open season!


But then he lost to a table so the efffct was ruined.




> Don`t Forget Azrael, he`s a wild-card.


Your right. Az is dangerous and would give Jason a good fight. Now that's the fight I want to see.

----------


## Assam

> Jason dealt well with Cass both times 
> 
> The hostilites are open season!


We've talked about this before, but Cass never actually tried fighting him with the intention to win.

Jason is on Dick's level, and Dick isn't on Cass's.

----------


## yohyoi

> We've talked about this before, but Cass never actually tried fighting him with the intention to win.
> 
> Jason is on Dick's level, and Dick isn't on Cass's.


Jason isn't even on Dick's level. No other Robin is on Dick's level.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Then why even bother having them show up at all?
> 
> If it really is so uneven, the sensible thing is that _something_ will be used even out the odds. Otherwise, what's the point?
> 
> 
> 
> This. Pretty sure that bow is enough to outright kill the entire 'Tec team, and we know that's not happening.


Shill the 'Tec team.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Actually, with a genius Bizarro and the Bow of Ra on their midst, any other outcome different to the Outlaws wiping the floor with them it will be bad writing.


I'd really prefer that neither group was jobbed in order to make the other look better myself. I'm with Aioros on how this will play out and that the Bow of Ra will not be a factor in the fight. Its to overpowered for something of this nature IMHO. It's power should be reserved for really high stakes situations and high level threats (think an invasion by Darkseid) not what could be considered a street level fight.

----------


## Caivu

> Shill the 'Tec team.


I'm like, 99% sure that's not going to happen.




> I'd really prefer that neither group was jobbed in order to make the other look better myself.


This. It's no fun if it's vastly lopsided.

----------


## Caivu

Double post.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This. It's no fun if it's vastly lopsided.


Exactly. It's entirely no fun if I can see whose going to win without a punch even being thrown. Personally I see the two teams being fairly evenly matched in overall skill and that to me makes this fight more interesting then a fight were one team basically curb stomps the other because they are overpowered. 

I seriously hate when writers do that and I would hope that Lobdell can respect the skills and abilities of the members of both teams regardless of who ultimately wins the fight. I've had enough of writers blatantly dumbing down the skills of characters that they are "borrowing" from somewhere else for an arc and crossover just so they can make their own book's characters look awesome.

----------


## Aahz

> If I'm Batman, I expect the 'Tec team to handle almost anything below the Justice League. The Outlaws would be a challenge but Batman trained the 'Tec team. They should know how to handle Superman level threats. The 'Tec team would win through tactics and strategy, the Batman way.


I don't know. Most of DCs other Teams, have also a Batfamily character for the tactics and strategy part (and without Tim Kate seems to be the only one with experience in that area in the Team), and have at least one member that could potentially solo the complete team, if they don't have some kind of prep.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Bizarro owns the Tec team in under a minute, anything else is bad writing.

----------


## Caivu

> Bizarro owns the Tec team in under a minute, anything else is bad writing.


No. Anything else _without a means of weakening, incapacitating, or otherwise removing him as a threat_ is. Same for Artemis, for that matter.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> No. Anything else _without a means of weakening, incapacitating, or otherwise removing him as a threat_ is. Same for Artemis, for that matter.


I'm not concerned about Artemis but without plot devices and other plot driven non sense the Tec team wouldn't last 30 seconds against Bizarro. He kills them by breathing hard.

----------


## rev516

> I'm not concerned about Artemis but without plot devices and other plot driven non sense the Tec team wouldn't last 30 seconds against Bizarro. He kills them by breathing hard.


Big facts ^

----------


## Caivu

> I'm not concerned about Artemis but without plot devices and other plot driven non sense the Tec team wouldn't last 30 seconds against Bizarro. He kills them by breathing hard.


Not necessarily. Sure, they can use weapons, but Bizarro still has to breathe, yeah? You just said he did. Clayface could conceivably get inside his mouth and nose and cut off his airway. Or any number of other nasty things.

----------


## Godlike13

Bizarro has ice vision.

----------


## Caivu

> Bizarro has ice vision.


I know that. That's why what I described isn't foolproof.

----------


## Aahz

> Not necessarily. Sure, they can use weapons, but Bizarro still has to breathe, yeah? You just said he did. Clayface could conceivably get inside his mouth and nose and cut off his airway. Or any number of other nasty things.


Not sure if he really needs to breath (or is at least able to hold his Breath for a really long time) Superman is usually able to fly in Space without a suit.
And Bizzaro has Firebreath, which could make this this idea possibly suicidal for Clayface.

The other thing with Bizzaro is that at least some versions (from what I found on the Internet) don't have Supermans weaknesses, so it might even be harder to bring him down. The only charcater that appears currently in the Batman comics that could go up against Bizzaro is Gotham Girl.

----------


## Aioros22

> We've talked about this before, but Cass never actually tried fighting him with the intention to win.
> 
> Jason is on Dick's level, and Dick isn't on Cass's.


We did and we still don`t agree. Not fighting with the intent to kill doesn`t mean she wasn`t fighting with the intent to bring them down, otherwise she wouldn`t have done what she did to Dick. With that in mind I think is clear there were two rounds between them. When Jason answers the call and has Cass on gunpoint, they`re in a bar, she`s kneeling on the floor and the surrundings are busted. 

Then, there`s the fight we see where she didn`t overhelming win anything. Even if the implication is that she held back alot (which only makes Dick look like a bigger dofus) Jason still won on points because in either round the one in the disadvantage position was Cass, not him. 

Now, I`m not saying Cass isn`t more skilled than Jason, or billed as more skilled, or more writers wouldn`t get behind as her being more skilled or that her genesis of character doesn`t plant her as being more a prodigy at fighting but I am saying what I am saying. 

Jason so far has shown he`s good enough to counter her and he does fight dirtier than she does.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Not necessarily. Sure, they can use weapons, but Bizarro still has to breathe, yeah? You just said he did. Clayface could conceivably get inside his mouth and nose and cut off his airway. Or any number of other nasty things.


He just sneezes and kills them all, sends Clayface parts all over Gotham. I mean c'mon.

----------


## Caivu

> He just sneezes and kills them all, sends Clayface parts all over Gotham. I mean c'mon.


Well, we know no one's dying, so that's not worth discussing. And I think this is an exaggeration, anyway.

----------


## darkseidpwns

It really isn't though.

----------


## Caivu

> It really isn't though.


Show me some evidence of that, then.

Even if he _can_ do what you're describing, that's almost certainly not going to happen, either. Fatal outcomes aren't going to be a thing here.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Show you what exactly? Bizarro is fairly well known character. 
Ok he just knocks them unconscious by breathing hard.

----------


## Caivu

> Show you what exactly? Bizarro is fairly well known character. 
> Ok he just knocks them unconscious by breathing hard.


You're saying he can send people flying with his breath, right? Let's see that. Because I'm seeing stuff that says he has _vacuum_ breath, not what you're describing.

----------


## darkseidpwns

I haven't kept scans of feats in years, its simple logic.

----------


## yohyoi

> I don't know. Most of DCs other Teams, have also a Batfamily character for the tactics and strategy part (and without Tim Kate seems to be the only one with experience in that area in the Team), and have at least one member that could potentially solo the complete team, if they don't have some kind of prep.


'Tec team should still surpass every other team without Batman in tactics and strategy. It should be their forte in my opinion.




> I'm not concerned about Artemis but without plot devices and other plot driven non sense the Tec team wouldn't last 30 seconds against Bizarro. He kills them by breathing hard.


Batman won't be popular if this is true. There will always be a suspension of disbelief in comics. A human fighting and defeating a god is one of humanity's oldest stories.

----------


## Aahz

> 'Tec team should still surpass every other team without Batman in tactics and strategy. It should be their forte in my opinion.


Why? To me it seems that the only "startegist" they have currently on the team is Batwoman, and sofar she doesn't seem to be any better in this area than the other core Batfamily members. And most other teams have also a Batfamily member as leader.

And the strongest team (without Batman) in this regard are probably the Birds of Prey, with two experienced crime fighters and the former leader of an international spy organisation on the team.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 'Tec team should still surpass every other team without Batman in tactics and strategy. It should be their forte in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Batman won't be popular if this is true. There will always be a suspension of disbelief in comics. A human fighting and defeating a god is one of humanity's oldest stories.


Thing is, stories make a point to show Clark is either holding himself back (Hush) or not willing to fight (Bvs) for the idea of a human being able to stand, or even win against a god. But Bizarro? He lacks the moral baggage of Clark and we know by the solicits that he's not only back at 100% but he's also a genius and seemingly, more ruthless than before. So no, there's no real way to explain the 'Tec team standing for more than 30 seconds without pulling some serious BS to gimp Bizarro. And that is without counting the fact Artemis is on an entire weight class of her own while Jason not only has his All-Caste training but also he's quite possibly, the most resourceful member of the Bat-family.

There's tactics and then there's "Batman can beat freaking Dr. Manahattan with prep time" tactics.

----------


## Assam

> Why? To me it seems that the only "strategist" they have currently on the team is Batwoman, and sofar she doesn't seem to be any better in this area than the other core Batfamily members. And most other teams have also a Batfamily member as leader.


Batwoman is the one they've been pushing as the leader, but everyone on this team has shown plenty of resourceful thinking and strategic abilities, if only Pre-Flashpoint in some cases. (Also, freely admit that I probably wouldn't have responded to this if you hadn't implied that Cass isn't core Batfamily. :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## Caivu

> Thing is, stories make a point to show Clark is either holding himself back (Hush) or not willing to fight (Bvs) for the idea of a human being able to stand, or even win against a god. But Bizarro? He lacks the moral baggage of Clark and we know by the solicits that he's not only back at 100% but he's also a genius and seemingly, more ruthless than before. So no, there's no real way to explain the 'Tec team standing for more than 30 seconds without pulling some serious BS to gimp Bizarro.


And that's bad... why? I don't think anyone's saying that in a standard faceoff that this is fair. That's why team 'Tec is going to have to use something (maybe several somethings) to even the odds in their favor. But if they do, that's apparently also bad...? I mean, it'd be one thing if the Outlaws were invincible, but they aren't.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And that's bad... why? I don't think anyone's saying that in a standard faceoff that this is fair. That's why team 'Tec is going to have to use something (maybe several somethings) to even the odds in their favor. But if they do, that's apparently also bad...? I mean, it'd be one thing if the Outlaws were invincible, but they aren't.


Because ultimately the end result will be the Outlaws jobbing to the 'Tec team on _their own book_

----------


## Caivu

> Because ultimately the end result will be the Outlaws jobbing to the 'Tec team on _their own book_


Jobbing doesn't mean losing. It means losing without sufficient reason.

For example: If Batman gets into a fistfight with Superman and beats him without any other qualifiers, that's Superman jobbing. If the exact same situation happens but Batman is wearing kryptonite knuckledusters, it's not.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Jobbing doesn't mean losing. It means losing without sufficient reason.*
> 
> For example: If Batman gets into a fistfight with Superman and beats him without any other qualifiers, that's Superman jobbing. If the exact same situation happens but Batman is wearing kryptonite knuckledusters, it's not.


That is exactly the issue. For the reasons I listed before there's not enough reasons on the 'Tec team for them to be able to beat Bizarro, let alone the rest of the Outlaws at the same time.

Other than the Outlaws sweeping the floor with Batwoman and her group, the only other reasonable outcome is to have the fight interrupted by Bruce's arrival who then proceeds to chew out *both teams* for reckless behavior.

----------


## Caivu

> That is exactly the issue. For the reasons I listed before there's not enough reasons on the 'Tec team for them to be able to beat Bizarro, let alone the rest of the Outlaws at the same time.


Why not? Unless I'm missing something, neither Bizarro nor Artemis have weaknesses that are _that_ out there. And they don't even need to beat them, necessarily. Just hold their own.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Let's put it like this, Batwoman and her team show up on Trinty and beat the Trinity. Would you find that outcome believable and satisfying?

----------


## Assam

> Let's put it like this, Batwoman and her team show up on Trinty and beat the Trinity. Would you find that outcome believable and satisfying?


Do you really think that the Outlaws are equals to the Trinity? (As fighters I mean if that wasn't clear. I prefer the Outlaws as characters)

----------


## Caivu

> Let's put it like this, Batwoman and her team show up on Trinty and beat the Trinity. Would you find that outcome believable and satisfying?


Ignoring how wrong that situation would be: 

If they show up and do so with their typical gear? No.  
If they do so because they have the necessary tools/tactics to help them take out Wonder Woman and Superman? Yes.

I don't get why that should be objectionable.

----------


## Alycat

This discussion has made me want to see Batfam members and their teams brawl. Tec vs Outlaws vs Titans vs Teen Titans vs BoP vs where ever you put Batman.

----------


## Assam

> If they do so because they have the necessary tools/tactics to help them take out Wonder Woman and Superman? Yes.
> 
> I don't get why that should be objectionable.


I don't like the idea that Bruce is capable of doing crap to Superman. However, its been shown that  he can, and that allows me to believe that five of his most skilled/resourceful/powerful allies have the means, through proper planning, to deal with guys like Bizarro and Artemis.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't like the idea that Bruce is capable of doing crap to Superman. However, its been shown that  he can, and that allows me to believe that five of his most skilled/resourceful/powerful allies have the means, through proper planning, to deal with guys like Bizarro and Artemis.


I dunno, as long as there's the appropriate kyptonite available to them, any normal human should be at least able to drastically level the field against a Kryptonian.

----------


## Aioros22

Eh, I`m fine with a plot device if it happens because that will mean what we all know will mean  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I still think it will play standard. Some action cuts, some confrontations with lip service either way and then someone yells stop or does something to end the brawl. That said, it requires a mandatory "shit, it`s Bizarro, Artemis and Clayface" mentions and expecific tactics against them because they`re the obvious powerhouses. 

And I want Jason to have the last word because that`s his name in the title.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, freely admit that I probably wouldn't have responded to this if you hadn't implied that Cass isn't core Batfamily.


I didn't wanted to imply anything, I was just lazy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Do you really think that the Outlaws are equals to the Trinity? (As fighters I mean if that wasn't clear. I prefer the Outlaws as characters)


Yeah, that is why they are the _Dark_ Trinity

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, that is why they are the _Dark_ Trinity


I fully disagree. Carrying the Trinity name doesn't make them equal to the OG group .

----------


## yohyoi

> I fully disagree. Carrying the Trinity name doesn't make them equal to the OG group .


I agree with this. No amount of fanboyism can defeat common sense. Jason isn't even looked as top tier in the Bat family. Now we are equaling him to Batman. Maybe he should beat Damian more consistently first.

----------


## Aioros22

In terms of roles and amount of skillset, the Dark trinityTM is supposed to _mirror_ the TrinityTM. That`s the genesis behind the pitch and Jason is effectively the Batman here. 

As far as throwing names like it`s a tournament ladder, eh, maybe Dick should beat people who lose to Jason, more consistantly. Damian only got one win over Jason, another tie and the rest is him eating dust. That`s not a majority to claim anything over. 

Fanboy mode out  :Wink:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ignoring how wrong that situation would be: 
> 
> If they show up and do so with their typical gear? No.  
> If they do so because they have the necessary tools/tactics to help them take out Wonder Woman and Superman? Yes.
> 
> I don't get why that should be objectionable.


I don't find it objectionable but even having the necessary tools and tactics doesn't always automatically lead to victory because of unexpected factors that could not have been accounted for by whatever intel that was gathered beforehand. Sometimes what you thought was a perfectly solid plan with sound tactics falls completely apart and the tools you thought were perfect for the job turn out not to be. I think that Batwoman and her team might end up being surprised by the Outlaws in that regard.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't find it objectionable but even having the necessary tools and tactics doesn't always automatically lead to victory because of unexpected factors that could not have been accounted for by whatever intel that was gathered beforehand. Sometimes what you thought was a perfectly solid plan with sound tactics falls completely apart and the tools you thought were perfect for the job turn out not to be. I think that Batwoman and her team might end up being surprised by the Outlaws in that regard.


I don't disagree. I've only been talking about this in terms of the two teams being more-or-less evenly matched, and that that's possible.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I fully disagree. Carrying the Trinity name doesn't make them equal to the OG group .


Bizarro and Artemis have been shown to be equal to their counterparts so far. As for Jason...




> I agree with this. No amount of fanboyism can defeat common sense. Jason isn't even looked as top tier in the Bat family. Now we are equaling him to Batman. Maybe he should beat Damian more consistently first.


Not accounting for writer bias'

On the post FP world Jason has beaten Bruce _twice_, beat Cassandra and Tim. While Dick and Damian wins against him are simply because they had the element surprise.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't disagree. I've only been talking about this in terms of the two teams being more-or-less evenly matched, and that that's possible.


I likewise believe them to be more-or-less evenly matched. Like I said before I'm hoping Lobdell manages to respect the skills of ALL the characters involved here because so often that is not the case in stories like this. It would make a nice change to have a writer doing so IMHO. Ideally this should be a close fight were the "victor" (and I'm using that term pretty loosely) wins by the skin of their teeth and not because they curb stomped the "loser" without breaking a sweat.

----------


## oasis1313

> I agree with this. No amount of fanboyism can defeat common sense. Jason isn't even looked as top tier in the Bat family. Now we are equaling him to Batman. Maybe he should beat Damian more consistently first.


Who is and isn't "top-tier" Bat-Family?

----------


## Assam

> Who is and isn't "top-tier" Bat-Family?


As of right now, the girl with enough power to take down the Justice League and the giant clay monster are clearly the top-tier. 

Just talking "normal" humans though, I'd say Bruce, Cass and a full-strength JPV make up the top-tier.

----------


## Alycat

> Bizarro and Artemis have been shown to be equal to their counterparts so far. As for Jason...
> 
> 
> 
> Not accounting for writer bias'
> 
> On the post FP world Jason has beaten Bruce _twice_, beat Cassandra and Tim. While Dick and Damian wins against him are simply because they had the element surprise.


Except they really haven't been shown as equal. Oh please how is Jason's win against Cass legit but Dick a surprise with Bruce?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Except they really haven't been shown as equal. Oh please how is Jason's win against Cass legit but Dick a surprise with Bruce?


Artemis was shown to be evenly matched with Diana during the flashback of issue 7. Bizarro was able to clear Earth's atmosphere on matter of seconds and received the full brunt of a magic explosion and if he was dying, was due his genes, not the magic. Then on issue 12 he made short work of Grundy despite being agonizing.

Jason faced Cassandra head-on, Dick and Damian  took Jason down while he was busy with something else. Bruce on Dick's case, the crowbar and the talons on Damian's case.

----------


## Aioros22

Robin:War is legit for Damian, B&R isn`t, In one, he used his smaller size to dodge and knock him down while in the other, despite the element of surprise and disarming Jason in the beginning, he couldn`t hold on that advantage.

----------


## yohyoi

> Who is and isn't "top-tier" Bat-Family?


Cass, Bruce and Dick. Everyone else are below them, except maybe a full strength Azrael.

Jason has very bad showings. The Bat writers and editorial rank him below these three since forever.

----------


## Aioros22

The worse showings for Jason since the reboot are three from Eternal, one from Robin:War and another from King`s Batman run. The _Eterna_l ones involve not fighting back at all to a mind blurred Barbara, losing to "Mother" and forgetting to use weapons against Bane in Santa Prisca with Tim. R:War is the bout I already mentioned. Lastly, the off panel hanging from King`s run. 

Here`s the rundown, "Mother" and Bane are characters Dick doesn`t fare any better on his own, not fighting back is not a bad showing on that premise alone. Losing to Damian is the actual lower showing he`s got. On the versus side, he`s took on aliens far more than any other Bat member save Batman, managed to sneak on and impress Supergirl with his swordmanship, tied with Deathstroke, took down the Iron Rule singlehandy, won Cass on points twice and took down Shiva. 

I`m curious about the name list you can come up with.

----------


## yohyoi

> The worse showings for Jason since the reboot are three from Eternal, one from Robin:War and another from King`s Batman run. The _Eterna_l ones involve not fighting back at all to a mind blurred Barbara, losing to "Mother" and forgetting to use weapons against Bane in Santa Prisca with Tim. R:War is the bout I already mentioned. Lastly, the off panel hanging from King`s run. 
> 
> Here`s the rundown, "Mother" and Bane are characters Dick doesn`t fare any better on his own, not fighting back is not a bad showing on that premise alone. Losing to Damian is the actual lower showing he`s got. On the versus side, he`s took on aliens far more than any other Bat member save Batman, managed to sneak on and impress Supergirl with his swordmanship, tied with Deathstroke, took down the Iron Rule singlehandy, won Cass on points twice and took down Shiva. 
> 
> I`m curious about the name list you can come up with.


The top tier will always be Cass, Bruce and Dick. This has been unchanged for more than a decade. 

The middle tier is hard to pinpoint. It changes continuously. Even the Damian vs Tim vs Jason is debatable. One could even say Damian beats them due to perfect pedigree and training. He also fights dirty and can be more ruthless than Jason. His greatest weakness in the fight is his arrogance. I can see why Tynion and King will rank him above Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Cass, Bruce and Dick. Everyone else are below them, except maybe a full strength Azrael.
> 
> Jason has very bad showings. The Bat writers and editorial rank him below these three since forever.


Please, where is the tier list except from King's twit? And who's to say his voice is the authority here? Also it doesn't mean anything if actual showings in the comics say otherwise.

----------


## Aioros22

> The top tier will always be Cass, Bruce and Dick. This has been unchanged for more than a decade. 
> 
> The middle tier is hard to pinpoint. It changes continuously. Even the Damian vs Tim vs Jason is debatable. One could even say Damian beats them due to perfect pedigree and training. He also fights dirty and can be more ruthless than Jason. His greatest weakness in the fight is his arrogance. I can see why Tynion and King will rank him above Jason.


You`re not really answering the question. That`s catering to a perception of who are the writer`s favorites on Twitter. 

Cass failing to mop the flor with Jason as she did Dick already challenges what was unchanged.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, we know under King that Jason, Dick and Damian all fare as well against Bane. 

They`re all good Christmas decoration.

----------


## Assam

> You`re not really answering the question. That`s catering to a perception of who are the writer`s favorites on Twitter. 
> 
> Cass failing to mop the flor with Jason as she did Dick already challenges what was unchanged.


1) The fact that there's disagreement at all about Cass and Jason's fight (Which there was far more of when the issue first came out) means it isn't conclusive. Also, when responding earlier, you said something like "She wasn't trying to kill". She NEVER is. The thing about her is that she's always holding back, and the way I read that bar fight, she was holding back even more than usual. 

2) Not sure if you read 'Tec, but they've made it _very_ clear that Cass is still numero uno. (I know _you_ already know that Cass is more skilled; I'm just saying) 

3) I do think Yohyoi is underselling Jason's showings though, and as I've said multiple times, I think they put him on Dick's level, who in turn is on the level below Bruce, Cass, and JPV(Personally, in regards to the middle, I'd put Kate, Helena, Luke, Damian and the Pre-FP versions of Tim and Steph all one the same level right below Dick and Jason)

----------


## Aahz

> Robin:War is legit for Damian,


I don't think you can consider anything written by King legit. I mean just look at this Deathstroke, Deadshot nonsense from his last issue.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think you can consider anything written by King legit. I mean just look at this Deathstroke, Deadshot nonsense from his last issue.


I saw that. As much as I loathe Slade, even I know that that was some absolute ridiculousness.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 1) The fact that there's disagreement at all about Cass and Jason's fight (Which there was far more of when the issue first came out) means it isn't conclusive. Also, when responding earlier, you said something like "She wasn't trying to kill". She NEVER is. The thing about her is that she's always holding back, and the way I read that bar fight, she was holding back even more than usual.


Favoritism. 




> 2) Not sure if you read 'Tec, but they've made it _very_ clear that Cass is still numero uno. (I know _you_ already know that Cass is more skilled; I'm just saying)


A book shills its main characters as the best thing since sliced bread? Why, that's unheard of.




> 3) I do think Yohyoi is underselling Jason's showings though, and as I've said multiple times, I think they put him on Dick's level, who in turn is on the level below Bruce, Cass, and JPV(Personally, in regards to the middle, I'd put Kate, Helena, Luke, Damian and the Pre-FP versions of Tim and Steph all one the same level right below Dick and Jason)


JPV was never at a higher level skill than Bruce and I say that as someone that loves Jean Paul (O'Neil's not the Lane pastiche that Tynion parades around as JP). JP was only effective because he was brutal and give no quarter to his enemies, the fact he's so heavily reliant of the System makes him a lesser combatant than Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> 1) The fact that there's disagreement at all about Cass and Jason's fight (Which there was far more of when the issue first came out) means it isn't conclusive. Also, when responding earlier, you said something like "She wasn't trying to kill". She NEVER is. The thing about her is that she's always holding back, and the way I read that bar fight, she was holding back even more than usual.


Take the kill out of the way, she was yet aiming to catch them by surprise and take them down. Was she holding back _more_ than when she fought Dick? Because she mauled him at the rooftop. 




> 1) 2) Not sure if you read 'Tec, but they've made it _very_ clear that Cass is still numero uno. (I know _you_ already know that Cass is more skilled; I'm just saying)


I`m not debating she isn`t as fact. I`m debating that her spot isn`t unchallenged as it used to be. You read it from the Hood`s mouth, his training helps to counter what used to be her main advantage: body reading. Which means other factors will come in play to decide whoever steals most points.




> 1) 3) I do think Yohyoi is underselling Jason's showings though, and as I've said multiple times, I think they put him on Dick's level, who in turn is on the level below Bruce, Cass, and JPV(Personally, in regards to the middle, I'd put Kate, Helena, Luke, Damian and the Pre-FP versions of Tim and Steph all one the same level right below Dick and Jason)


I think Dick is among the top. I just simply regard Jason as being there as well. He`s among the most trained and with a better fighting resume of the bunch. For all the favoritism writers display of others, you _hardly_ have a low showing of Jason that looks as definite as the one Dick suffered at the hands of Cass. 

Besides, the number of ties the two have displayed against each other is further evidence. Dick`s best bout was in BOTC where Jay was written as having lost his marbles.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Disappointing there's no references to the Outlaws. Although the first exchange on the video could be one if you squint enough.

----------


## Alycat

Not sure why anyone expected any. Injustice is very preflashpoint so they would never work and the reception to that first group is mixed at best.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Not sure why anyone expected any. Injustice is very preflashpoint so they would never work and the reception to that first group is mixed at best.


Countdown is completely derided by everyone and is even disowned by DC and yet got a shotout.

And for like the tenth time, the Red Hood & The Outlaws tag on twitter and tumblr says otherwise. By each Dark Trinity thing you find, you get ten OG Outlaws.

----------


## G-Potion

I like it.  The first  2 have a somber  mood and Jason talks to her in a softer manner,  unlike with the rest of the cast.  That is enough shoutout to Outlaws for me.

----------


## Alycat

> Countdown is completely derided by everyone and is even disowned by DC and yet got a shotout.
> 
> And for like the tenth time, the Red Hood & The Outlaws tag on twitter and tumblr says otherwise. By each Dark Trinity thing you find, you get ten OG Outlaws.


Well yeah. The previous group was 3 attractive and well loved/ known characters. Doesn't change all the criticism against the group, but whatever We will never agree on this. I agree  that Countdown shout out was a surprise.

----------


## Aahz

> Countdown is completely derided by everyone and is even disowned by DC and yet got a shotout.


Actually I would still claim that the first issues Countdown, were among the pre flashpoint comics with Jason.
Problem is just that thy couldn't keep this level through the whole series.

----------


## Caivu

Kirkham might as well just post the whole annual at this rate:

Screenshot_20170808-100234.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

That many panels posted and it still doesn't tell us much lol.

----------


## Alycat

> That many panels posted and it still doesn't tell us much lol.


Yeah I feel like it's all panels of the same page/fights.

----------


## Aioros22

> Not sure why anyone expected any. Injustice is very preflashpoint so they would never work and the reception to that first group is mixed at best.


You think they care about whether fans online enjoy talking about how Outlaws Kory is not Kory despite being Kory? 

If anything, characterization business aside, the main positive point of the OGOutlaws was the friendship and bond the three shared.

----------


## Aioros22

> Kirkham might as well just post the whole annual at this rate:
> 
> Attachment 52737


He`s doing the right approach. All the tiny bits and you still can` tell how the story will be told and how Jason and Dick will interact.

----------


## G-Potion

Looking at the comments on the Kory/Jason intro, most people seem to notice and like the sadder/more gentle tone they have between them, so I'd think NRS did a good job subtly referencing the Outlaws friendship.

----------


## G-Potion

*Better Off Red: 15 Reasons Red Hood is the Brutal Hero Gotham Needs*

Sure to ruffle some feathers but nice read with some observation that I like, particularly:




> Batman knows who he is. Nightwing knows who he is. Even Tim Drake knows who he is and what he wants to do with himself. The only member of the Bat-Family who has yet to realize what they want out of life is the Red Hood.

----------


## Alycat

> You think they care about whether fans online enjoy talking about how Outlaws Kory is not Kory despite being Kory? 
> 
> If anything, characterization business aside, the main positive point of the OGOutlaws was the friendship and bond the three shared.


I have no idea what you mean? I'm just saying they don't care about Outlaws Kory very much, especially over Teen Titans Kory which is what I see the most comments about overall.




> *Better Off Red: 15 Reasons Red Hood is the Brutal Hero Gotham Needs*
> 
> Sure to ruffle some feathers but nice read with some observation that I like, particularly:


I'd argue that Tim is the one who doesn't know who he is and what he wants to do. That's not a good thing either.

----------


## Aahz

I don't know, Dick seems to have identity crises quite frequently, and Batman oscillating between wanting to work alone and working with teams and his family quite regularly.

----------


## Aahz

> I have no idea what you mean? I'm just saying they don't care about Outlaws Kory very much, especially over Teen Titans Kory which is what I see the most comments about overall.


the animated Teen Tiatsn version of Kory is defiantly the most popular version in the general audience, and that therefore the one they reference in the game (just look at the arcade ending "mustard with pizza on bottom"  :Cool: ).

----------


## darkseidpwns

With KGBeast in Outlaws I guess Snyder is done with him.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> *Better Off Red: 15 Reasons Red Hood is the Brutal Hero Gotham Needs*
> 
> Sure to ruffle some feathers but nice read with some observation that I like, particularly:


CBR lists pretty much exist to ruffle feathers, this one's a bit tame really.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is hilarious how that list flip flops between the author showing knowledge about Jason's books and don't.

On that note, this theory about Black Mask is a little too out there for my liking but is an interesting read nonetheless.

http://exploringthetimelab.blogspot....rhato.html?m=1

----------


## Aioros22

> I have no idea what you mean? I'm just saying they don't care about Outlaws Kory very much, especially over Teen Titans Kory which is what I see the most comments about overall.


I mean that they wouldn`t care about the segment of fanbase who believes Loedbell wrote Kory a mismatch. The OGOutlaws are popular enough on their own.

----------


## Aioros22

> Is hilarious how that list flip flops between the author showing knowledge about Jason's books and don't.
> 
> On that note, this theory about Black Mask is a little too out there for my liking but is an interesting read nonetheless]


CBR as usual writes articles about current state of characters as if time stopped in the early 2000`s. It`s a joke. 

Now that, on the other hand, is a fantastic article for the effect because it makes you think and re-read all the possible threads. I think the misterious figure is Wills Todd but that doesn`t mean he and this BM couldn`t be one and the same. More interestingly are the notes related to Collins which pretty much tell how the original pitch was for Jason to find out after all that his father was not dead.

----------


## Aioros22

Teasing Kate for the Outlaws meeting

----------


## Aioros22

The Red Ranger with...Azrael`s sword?  :Wink:

----------


## Alycat

> The Red Ranger with...Azrael`s sword?


Is the rest of the sword off panel or is it coming out of his glove?

----------


## G-Potion

Why need Azrael.  Could  just borrow Jason's All Blade. Flaming the same way it did in Batman/Superman annual.   :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...medium=twitter




> *NEW TALENT SHOWCASE 2017 #1*
> Written by ERICA HARRELL, DESIRÉE PROCTOR, DAVE ACCAMPO, AARON GILLESPIE, AL LETSON, TONY PATRICK and OWL GOINGBACK
> Art by SAM LOTFI, MINKYU JUNG, LYNNE YOSHII, SIYA OUM, MATT MERHOFF, LALIT SHARMA and JAGDISH KUMAR
> Cover by JIM LEE and SCOTT WILLIAMS
> That latest graduates from the DC Talent Development Workshops show off their skills in stories starring some of DC’s greatest characters. In these tales, Poison Ivy fights an ancient demon, Doctor Fate is confronted by the cost of magic, *Red Hood and Duke Thomas face off in a training day simulation and so much more!*

----------


## G-Potion

> Is the rest of the sword off panel or is it coming out of his glove?


It's the guard that obscures his hand and the hilt.

----------


## RedBird

> http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hea...medium=twitter


Ugh. Count me out.

Everytime Jason is used outside of his own comic its only for the sake of propping other characters up, and now this time its not even an experienced bat he gets the dignity of being used by, its the rookie? 

Nope. Not interested.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Ugh. Count me out.
> 
> Everytime Jason is used outside of his own comic its only for the sake of propping other characters up, and now this time its not even an experienced bat he gets the dignity of being used by, its the rookie? 
> 
> Nope. Not interested.


Yeah...I'm kind of worried about it. But who knows.

----------


## G-Potion

And coupled with what Jason just said about his family in recent RHATO, it's weird to think he'd just casually be there for a training session with Duke.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Gotta shill Snyder's pet by any means necessary.

----------


## Aahz

Jason and Duke seems really a strange combination. I hope they don't write that like the Jason Tim dynamic, since Duke has really not earned to be allready on a level with Jason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I'm leery about it as well but I'm willing to let the story speak for itself and to make a judgement after I've actually read it. Who knows maybe it will be a good story. Stranger things have been known to happen and it would be ironic if it turns out this story by a fledging writer was better than several years worth of more experienced writers attempts at a Jason + some Bat character story.

----------


## Desean101101

He only shows up if Bruce calls him specifically. Other than that I doubt Jason shows up. Or either that Jason was at the Manor and Duke asked for a spar. Those are really the only two options.

----------


## Alycat

> It's the guard that obscures his hand and the hilt.


I'm so dumb. Just realized that was Tommy. A Tommy and Jason meeting would be interesting .

----------


## Aioros22

As long Jason is written as _the experienced bat_ I don`t care who the rookie is. A _Training Day_ simulation could be a nice piece but I`m weary only because of Snyder. Snyder has yet to write one good piece out of Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm so dumb. Just realized that was Tommy. A Tommy and Jason meeting would be interesting .


Red Hood and Red Ranger are both named Jason. 

I thought Tommy is in the Lex suit?

----------


## G-Potion

> As long Jason is written as _the experienced bat_ I don`t care who the rookie is. A _Training Day_ simulation could be a nice piece but I`m weary only because of Snyder. Snyder has yet to write one good piece out of Jason.


This is likely  to be written  by Tony Patrick who will write Duke's miniseries.  Not sure if its any better.

----------


## Alycat

> Red Hood and Red Ranger are both named Jason.


Now I feel true shame. Forgot that Tommy was Green first. My power Rangers lore credit destroyed.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Not being Snyder may likely be the best trade even if the story doesn`t turn out to be a standout. I hope it does, I think the Training Day pitch is cool on paper.

----------


## RedBird

> As long Jason is written as _the experienced bat_


I mean, we would all hope so, it would seem at least logical yes? But therein lies the problem, for some reason the task of making Jason an experienced bat, or a skilled bat, or even just a competent person seem impossible apparently.

Also has Rhato in fact been moved to the 'bat office'?

----------


## G-Potion

Nothing heard on that front so far. We'll just have to wait and see who's the editor for next issue.

----------


## Assam

Some cute s**t: 

naww.jpg

reading.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nothing heard on that front so far. We'll just have to wait and see who's the editor for next issue.


Seems like Rob Levin the new editor

----------


## G-Potion

So.. what do we know about him?

----------


## Caivu

> So.. what do we know about him?


He's an editor for Injustice 2, Blue Beetle, and Batman Beyond. He also edited Nailbiter and a bunch of other stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

Okay so he's the assistant editor on Batman Beyond. Also has credits on Injustice 2 comics, I guess also assistant editor, because Jim Chadwick is also there in both titles as editor.

Edited: Ninja'd

----------


## G-Potion

So... not Bat office then?

----------


## Aioros22

More like in the Neighberhood Bat Office. Might be the best trade. In the negherhood but not living there which means, not solely defined by. 

Now I have to credit DC for an ounce of smart business. Let`s this editor is more proactive and keep Loedbell in the reigns as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusi...-to-trinity-12



Welp

----------


## Alycat

Mouth helmet strikes again in the worst way.

----------


## Aioros22

Demon mouth Jason needs the Lasso of Truth and Superman to hold him down to a table? 

Sounds good to me.

----------


## Aahz

I'm wondering if they will connect Lex Luthors actions in RHatO and Trinity in some way.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Mouth helmet strikes again in the worst way.


Well, at least it has a reason/purpose here. And he's got literal claws and fangs.

----------


## RedBird

This is looking more and more fun, glad to see that the issue will start with the possession rather than keeping it to the last page. 
I'm lovin the "Exorcist" imagery plus Batmans plee to the mystic Trinity is honestly kinda sweet. _"We need you help. I...Need your help."_

If Jasons head doesnt twist all around by the end of this issue, I will just be disappointed.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Demon mouth Jason needs the Lasso of Truth and Superman to hold him down to a table? 
> 
> Sounds good to me.


I feel the opposite. If a demon that powerful was able to posses Jason, then it means he was weak. A stark contrast to this

----------


## RedBird

> I feel the opposite. If a demon that powerful was able to posses Jason, then it means he was weak. A stark contrast to this


Well in that case, surely no one would say that Bizarro is 'evil' enough to be possessed but it seems he will be overcome as well. 
Do the powers of the demons in Trinity necessarily connect with how 'evil' or 'dark' someone is deep down? (In order to control and use that against them)

----------


## G-Potion

> This is looking more and more fun, glad to see that the issue will start with the possession rather than keeping it to the last page. 
> I'm lovin the "Exorcist" imagery plus Batmans plee to the mystic Trinity is honestly kinda sweet. _"We need you help. I...Need your help."_
> 
> If Jasons head doesnt twist all around by the end of this issue, I will just be disappointed.


Yeah that was a nice bit of dialog there.  Hoping  to see more father son moments by the end of this arc.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Well in that case, surely no one would say that Bizarro is 'evil' enough to be possessed but it seems he will be overcome as well. 
> Do the powers of the demons in Trinity necessarily connect with how 'evil' or 'dark' someone is deep down? (In order to control and use that against them)


Considering the annual heavily implied they were mind controlled by Circe, yeah.

----------


## Alycat

I'm not getting the connection between being weak/ evil and being possessed. Magic from someone as powerful as Circe should definitely affect Jason and the others.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm not getting the connection between being weak/ evil and being possessed. Magic from someone as powerful as Circe should definitely affect Jason and the others.


Jason has been shown to be able to shrug off poisoning and all kinds of mind controlling thanks to his All Caste training, therefore, making him fall prey so easy to mind controlling and possession is nerfing his skills as the plot demands and thus, not something one should be impressed by.

----------


## Caivu

> Jason has been shown to be able to shrug off poisoning and all kinds of mind controlling thanks to his All Caste training, therefore, making him fall prey so easy to mind controlling and possession is nerfing his skills as the plot demands and thus, not something one should be impressed by.


Why can't it be the case that Circe is too powerful even for him?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Jason has been shown to be able to shrug off poisoning and all kinds of mind controlling thanks to his All Caste training, therefore, making him fall prey so easy to mind controlling and possession is nerfing his skills as the plot demands and thus, not something one should be impressed by.


All kinds of mind control? Um really now? Well I guess the DCEU should congregate around the All Caste everytime Despero, Starro etc come around knocking

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Why can't it be the case that Circe is too powerful even for him?


Assuming this were the case, Jason wouldn't go down without a hell of a fight and there's nothing shown on Trinity so far that points this to be the case.




> All kinds of mind control? Um really now? Well I guess the DCEU should congregate around the All Caste everytime Despero, Starro etc come around knocking


Jason was able to shrug off mind control from a psychic based alien on the second annual of the old series but he had to go under a ton of training for at least a year to be able to so no, not something the JL can have on speed dial. Besides you know, the little issue of _the All Caste being dead_.

----------


## RedBird

> Why can't it be the case that Circe is too powerful even for him?


That's what I assumed was the case. 

I'm kinda surprised at how dire the narrative is framing this story, (but pleased all the same) what with the dc trinity ACTUALLY struggling to keep Jason down, and the mystic trinity being shocked that they ALL are needed and have been gathered to solve this problem (by the 'heavyweights' no less). The desperation in the air is clear, so if it is a demonic force it seems as though its something quite powerful and not easy to shrug off, I didnt think it was implying a 'weakness' on Jasons part, but I guess we will have to see.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That's what I assumed was the case. 
> 
> I'm kinda surprised at how dire the narrative is framing this story, (but pleased all the same) what with the dc trinity ACTUALLY struggling to keep Jason down, and the mystic trinity being shocked that they ALL are needed and have been gathered to solve this problem (by the 'heavyweights' no less). The desperation in the air is clear, so if it is a demonic force it seems as though its something quite powerful and not easy to shrug off, I didnt think it was implying a 'weakness' on Jasons part, but I guess we will have to see.


That attitude on itself is another misfire on Williams part since there's no reason for the magic Trinity to be surprised at the Trinity requesting their help after being established they have a working relationship through the N52, something that it continues to be canon I might add. Plus he's trying too hard with Constantine.

----------


## Alycat

Nope I'm sorry this isn't some one off random C-tier villian. This is freaking Circe and she should be able to take Jason with magic/ mondo control.  It would be dumb and OP for him to able to shrug off all forms of magic/ mind control. It's not weakness on his part, it's just that a big WW villian is also super powerful.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Nope I'm sorry this isn't some one off random C-tier villian. This is freaking Circe and she should be able to take Jason with magic/ mondo control.  It would be dumb and OP for him to able to shrug off all forms of magic/ mind control. It's not weakness on his part, it's just that a big WW villian is also super powerful.


Right? Artemis and Bizarro are also controlled. They are not weak. We're not supposed to think any of them are weak.

----------


## Aioros22

> I feel the opposite. If a demon that powerful was able to posses Jason, then it means he was weak. A stark contrast to this


Pardon the bluntless, this isn`t Circe and Ras`Al Ghul working together.

To borrow another example, The Shadow was trained as a paladin as is incredibly resistant on mind control but as he himself has mentioned in stories, theres a few who w/could be his better. 

You mention the especific training for that alien breed but that is one especific. Why would that translate in to every magical invasion from now on seems a bit off. Jason (or any caracter here) dont go around the block with a psych/magic shield on.

----------


## Aioros22

> Assuming this were the case, Jason wouldn't go down without a hell of a fight and there's nothing shown on Trinity so far that points this to be the case


There`s nothing shown at this point because the story starts with them possessed. Why are you taking such a jump at this stage in the narrative? 




> Jason was able to shrug off mind control from a psychic based alien on the second annual of the old series but he had to go under a ton of training for at least a year to be able to so no, not something the JL can have on speed dial. Besides you know, the little issue of _the All Caste being dead_.


Superman is high resistant to mind control and has been able to shrugg invasions to his own mind by Brainiac and Blaze but how many times has he been controlled in other ocassions? Jason having trained with the All-Caste and (and for that alien breed) being resistant doesn`t automatically translate into being invulnerable to magic possession or mind control. That`s never been adressed especifically in RATHO by any writer. 

And then you still have these two details to consider: 

Even if there _had been_, which is not the case, but had been, not all _magic_ works the same. 

Even if it was a writer`s mismatch on the angle, it wouldn`t make Jason "weaker" _than anybody else in that room_ considering what similar situations they`ve been throught.

----------


## SpentShrimp

If Jason was able to shrug of Circe's mind control, I'd be pretty let down. I don't want Mary Sue Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Pardon the bluntless, this isn`t Circe and Ras`Al Ghul working together.
> 
> To borrow another example, The Shadow was trained as a paladin as is incredibly resistant on mind control but as he himself has mentioned in stories, theres a few who w/could be his better. 
> 
> You mention the especific training for that alien breed but that is one especific. Why would that translate in to every magical invasion from now on seems a bit off. Jason (or any caracter here) dont go around the block with a psych/magic shield on.


Ra's isn't doing anything to control the Dark Trinity, that is all Circe. Ra's doesn't even have actual magic --Tynion's BS aside.

And no, Jason didn't train specifically to resist one specific alien race nor I don't know why did you came to that conclusion from my posts.  And yeah, I'm not saying he can't be bested but when it happens it should be treated with appropriate seriousness not simply as an afterthought as is happening here. 




> There`s nothing shown at this point because the story starts with them possessed. Why are you taking such a jump at this stage in the narrative?


Precisely for that. The story starts with them already possessed, there's no struggle, no showing of the Dark Trinity making a stand against Circe. They're simply glorified mooks that are being thrown at the Trinity. For a story that was billed as having the first meeting of the three trinities you'd expect a more  balanced showing of the characters involved.




> Superman is high resistant to mind control and has been able to shrugg invasions to his own mind by Brainiac and Blaze but how many times has he been controlled in other ocassions? Jason having trained with the All-Caste and (and for that alien breed) being resistant doesn`t automatically translate into being invulnerable to magic possession or mind control. That`s never been adressed especifically in RATHO by any writer.


Him being controlled by Poison Ivy on Hush is one of the low points of that story. And again, I never said he should be invulnerable but that it had to make the controller struggle to control Jason.




> And then you still have these two details to consider: 
> 
> Even if there _had been_, which is not the case, but had been, not all _magic_ works the same. 
> 
> Even if it was a writer`s mismatch on the angle, it wouldn`t make Jason "weaker" _than anybody else in that room_ considering what similar situations they`ve been throught.


"It's magic" is a poor excuse to justify lazy writing.

But is nothing to be proud either as you seemingly were on your previous post.

----------


## Alycat

No seriously I repeat this is freaking Circe. She ain't minor or weak and whatever she does to Jason can probably be explained by the fact that she is Circe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No seriously I repeat this is freaking Circe. She ain't minor or weak and whatever she does to Jason can probably be explained by the fact that she is Circe.


That doesn't make it any less lazy writing, if anything it makes it worse.

----------


## Alycat

> That doesn't make it any less lazy writing, if anything it makes it worse.


But why? There's is noreason to think that Jason is immune from the magic of someone as powerful as her. I'd say it bull if he was.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> But why? There's is noreason to think that Jason is immune from the *magic of someone as powerful as her*. I'd say it bull if he was.


This is exactly my problem. You're implicitly putting so much stock on Circe that there's literally nothing other characters can do, that they might as well give up as soon Circe shows up because is Circe. That is not a compelling villain nor it lends to interesting plots.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Lazy writing? Dude, get over it. Quit trying to make Jason a Mary Sue. He's not good at everything.

----------


## Aahz

> Lazy writing? Dude, get over it. Quit trying to make Jason a Mary Sue. He's not good at everything.


But it would be nice if he would be more consistently written to be good at something outside of his book.

----------


## Alycat

> This is exactly my problem. You're implicitly putting so much stock on Circe that there's literally nothing other characters can do, that they might as well give up as soon Circe shows up because is Circe. That is not a compelling villain nor it lends to interesting plots.


No. I'm saying that it's not surprising that certain characters can't do things to her/ might lose/ fall victim  because of who she is. If Doomsday killed Robin with a punch it's not stupid because it's Doomsday and Robin can't compete or can't compete alone. We don't know that the situation isn't interesting or compelling because  we haven't read it yet. Maybe it's explained. But even if it's not, there is nothing wrong with accepting that some people have abilities above another character.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ra's isn't doing anything to control the Dark Trinity, that is all Circe. Ra's doesn't even have actual magic --Tynion's BS aside.


Ras has arcane knowledge, so let`s not pretend all of a sudden he never dwells on such matters and frankly, even if it`s Circe alone, she`s always been written as one of the most dangerous magical rogues of the DCU. 




> And no, Jason didn't train specifically to resist one specific alien race nor I don't know why did you came to that conclusion from my posts


I was refering to this _post of yours_. 

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;3011379]Jason was able to shrug off mind control from a psychic based alien on the second annual of the old series but he had to go under a ton of training for at least a year to be able to so no(...)




> And yeah, I'm not saying he can't be bested but when it happens it should be treated with appropriate seriousness not simply as an afterthought as is happening here


You don`t know what is _happening here_. That`s basically it. Absence of something doesn`t make it happening the way _you_ perceive. You don`t know yet. If it`s adressed you will, but you don`t. 

The jumps in logic you`re making are your own, you`re not taking them from the writer`s pen and I think it`s absolute unfair that you try to. 




> Precisely for that. The story starts with them already possessed, there's no struggle, no showing of the Dark Trinity making a stand against Circe. They're simply glorified mooks that are being thrown at the Trinity. For a story that was billed as having the first meeting of the three trinities you'd expect a more balanced showing of the characters involved.


Without anything more objective to go with, your argument about making them weak is....well, pretty weak. It`s non existant. We don`t see how they get attacked, therefore the level of struggle involved is incognito. Maybe they start as merely the purpose to unite all Trinity but nothing says that they`ll stay in the table the whole story looking pretty. 




> "It's magic" is a poor excuse to justify lazy writing.


"It`s magic" has always been a free-for-all in general fiction. The very idea of magic is of a non ojective nature and not suspectible for rock hard rules or grounded on the usual physics or weight of gravity. It virtually does what the writers intends it to do. 

When you have a segment like the All-Caste whose traning guards you against magic, that`s a general thumb of rule, is not all magic, perhpas even no matter how hard you struggle. In RPG terms, "magic" will depend on user and what sort of magic it is because they all have their weak and strong points. You then have something like Harry Potter, where no matter the skill of the wizard, a few spells will alway be simply deadly if connected. That`s her rules to set, not the readers. 

Yes, considering how HP`s story is all about that subject those spells have some world building to it, a reason d`etre but we have little to go with the All-Caste in that department and little especifics. This story could go with that - or not, depending whereas the writer is willing to. In any final analysis, it boils down to the same - we have to read it to get it.

What did Circe _do_? Is her mind control enchanted somehow? Will they break out of it? Will they explain how it happened? Questions, questions. The preview is supposed to grab the potential reader, nothing more.

----------


## Aioros22

> But it would be nice if he would be more consistently written to be good at something outside of his book.


You and Dark are like these apocalyptical apostoles, aren`t you  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> This is exactly my problem. You're implicitly putting so much stock on Circe that there's literally nothing other characters can do, that they might as well give up as soon Circe shows up because is Circe. That is not a compelling villain nor it lends to interesting plots.


Look, I can even agree on that note about Circe _but_ if there are villains who kind of warrant that bigger stock from readers are the iconic folk like. Darkseid, Trigon, Circe, whatever. At the very least it`s understandable where it comes from, eh? This is no rookie no name who got lucky or broke in Dr`s Fate appartment. 

On everything else, well, if you`ve read the whole thing, just spoil away. I`m curious to read it.

----------


## Red obin

I have an opinion that will be controversial especially on this thread
 I desperately hope red hood is not brought into other media, in my opinion he is over exposed now. I like him in the comics but everywhere else he is portrayed as the 'cool,' 'rebel' robin which gets old fast and leads to people such as many youtubers loving him. IN reality he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin nowadays a lot which he shouldn't- read the robin series. I'm bored of the amount of people who a clamouring for an under the red hood movie at this point after the last few years.

Once again I want to say I like him in the comics as he makes sense there and is written better due to character development.

At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 

Cowers in fear from Todd fans

----------


## godisawesome

I have to say that I think if you want to see Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass, etc., you kind of have to want Red Hood to make the jump to live action. Because if he does, that proves to Warner Brothers that multiple Robins can work with a mainstream audience, allowing for an expansion of the Batfamily. 

And Red Hood gives Jason that storytelling edge to expand. In either an anatagonistic or "prodigal son" manner, he allows creators to examine Batman's legacy and parenting skills, and there's a natural impulse to use him as a foil with Nightwing.

----------


## Aahz

I don't think that Jason would really be a "thread" for Tim in other media. If I look at stuff like Young Justice, the Arkham games or Injustice, they seem usually to jump over Jasons time as Robin, so he is not taking much away from Tim.


But they shouldn't do Under the Red Hood as the first DCEU Batman movie, they should probaly use the first movie to introduce the th Batfamily and a new Robin (if they want to bring in one).

----------


## kiwiliko

> he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin


You do you if that's your opinion but Rhato actually has very little advertising for the only Jason focused issue currently happening and Tim most definitely isn't being brushed off as dork considering how hard the writers are trying to play/tease with his "death".

Jason has more presence in the youtube community most likely because he appears more in games. Tim has more emphasis in animation and played robins role for quite a while where jason about doesn't show up in DC shows aside from his suit. If anything I feel its a good thing Jason is expanding into games. For a long time writers have a history of not knowing what to do with his role and I assure you, letting Jason get to settle into his niche with Rhato runs and featuring in games is not something that's taking away from Tim. I like Tim too but I'm not going to ask other robins keep out of media so room can be made for a fav.

----------


## yohyoi

> I have an opinion that will be controversial especially on this thread
>  I desperately hope red hood is not brought into other media, in my opinion he is over exposed now. I like him in the comics but everywhere else he is portrayed as the 'cool,' 'rebel' robin which gets old fast and leads to people such as many youtubers loving him. IN reality he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin nowadays a lot which he shouldn't- read the robin series. I'm bored of the amount of people who a clamouring for an under the red hood movie at this point after the last few years.
> 
> Once again I want to say I like him in the comics as he makes sense there and is written better due to character development.
> 
> At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 
> 
> Cowers in fear from Todd fans


Jason is actually more tragic, since he is remembered as the Robin who failed and died. It's the core of the character which he can't escape. You compare Tim to Jason, but try comparing Tim to Dick and you will know what overshadow means.

----------


## Savatewolf

> I have an opinion that will be controversial especially on this thread
>  I desperately hope red hood is not brought into other media, in my opinion he is over exposed now. I like him in the comics but everywhere else he is portrayed as the 'cool,' 'rebel' robin which gets old fast and leads to people such as many youtubers loving him. IN reality he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin nowadays a lot which he shouldn't- read the robin series. I'm bored of the amount of people who a clamouring for an under the red hood movie at this point after the last few years.
> 
> Once again I want to say I like him in the comics as he makes sense there and is written better due to character development.
> 
> At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 
> 
> Cowers in fear from Todd fans


Not to be rude but this is rich coming from a Tim fan 

But I have to ask how is Jason overexposed? He's been in one animated movie and two video games both of which have been the latest entries of their franchises and most likely won't be returning in future installments since the Arkham series is more or less dead and Boon doesn't like repeating DLC characters. Him and Tim have basically been retconned out of existence by the people behind the animated movies in favor of Damian.

Like at least Tim is the current robin in Young Justice and Jason is yet again skipped over as the dead robin.

Also Cass and Stephanie getting ignored is more in favor of Barbara Gordon as the main Batgirl and Didio being an idiot than anything to do with Todd

If anyone has been overexposed and pushing Tim as the dork robin it's Damian and I LIKE Damian, but I can't deny how hated Damian is in the mainstream yet DC still continues to push him as THE main robin and ignoring Tim in other media.

----------


## RedBird

Edit: THIS ^^^^

He gets one game and suddenly he is 'overexposed', what?

----------


## Assam

> He gets one game and suddenly he is 'overexposed', what?


*2* games, an animated film, tons of merch, and within the comics, he's had his name in the title of a book basically non-stop for 6 years. The middle 3 BatKids DEFINITELY don't get it as good as Dick and Damian (Or Babs for that matter) , but I'd still say Jason has it better off then Tim and everyone at this point has it better than Cass. (Even Steph now)

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Not to be rude but this is rich coming from a Tim fan 
> 
> But I have to ask how is Jason overexposed? He's been in one animated movie and two video games both of which have been the latest entries of their franchises and most likely won't be returning in future installments since the Arkham series is more or less dead and Boon doesn't like repeating DLC characters. Him and Tim have basically been retconned out of existence by the people behind the animated movies in favor of Damian.
> 
> Like at least Tim is the current robin in Young Justice and Jason is yet again skipped over as the dead robin.
> 
> Also Cass and Stephanie getting ignored is more in favor of Barbara Gordon as the main Batgirl and Didio being an idiot than anything to do with Todd
> 
> If anyone has been overexposed and pushing Tim as the dork robin it's Damian and I LIKE Damian, but I can't deny how hated Damian is in the mainstream yet DC still continues to push him as THE main robin and ignoring Tim in other media.


I could have written this comment. 

I just can't take anyone calling Jason "overexposed" in relation to any of the other Robins other than Steph seriously. And if you're a Tim fan, who has benefited from Jason being skipped over more than once...um. No. Go set your DVR for the third season of Young Justice. 

But yeah. How is Jason "overexposed" anyway? He's in his comic and might appear in someone else's once every six months. UtRH is a great movie, but it's his only appearance as a living character. He's been in one main game and is a DLC in another. Hardly over staying his welcome anywhere. Other characters may have less, but not any of the other Robins except for Steph.

----------


## RedBird

> *2* games, an animated film, tons of merch, and within the comics, he's had his name in the title of a book basically non-stop for 6 years. The middle 3 BatKids DEFINITELY don't get it as good as Dick and Damian, but I'd still say Jason has it better off then Tim and everyone at this point has it better than Cass.



Yes I know of injustice 2. But I would hardly call that overexposure. That implies that netherrealm were pushing him rather than the fact that he was literally demanded for. People begged for the character and the developers couldnt say no to money. Overexposure implies the general public being sick of what is being produced or broadcasted rather than what happened here, which was quite the opposite. Add to that, he is dlc, and on that note Tim has featured in two of the arkham games, both of which he had dlc for.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I have an opinion that will be controversial especially on this thread
>  I desperately hope red hood is not brought into other media, in my opinion he is over exposed now. I like him in the comics but everywhere else he is portrayed as the 'cool,' 'rebel' robin which gets old fast and leads to people such as many youtubers loving him. IN reality he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin nowadays a lot which he shouldn't- read the robin series. I'm bored of the amount of people who a clamouring for an under the red hood movie at this point after the last few years.
> 
> Once again I want to say I like him in the comics as he makes sense there and is written better due to character development.
> 
> At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 
> 
> Cowers in fear from Todd fans


I have to laugh at the fact you seem to think Jason is overexposed. Really? Where is he being overexposed at cause I'd sure love to see him reach Batman levels of exposure across ALL media? He's the guy whose fans have to practically beg for him to appear anywhere at all and now because he's FINALLY had a steadily published comic, been in a few games and had ONE fairly decent animated film he's suddenly "overexposed". That's rich.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If there's a Robin who can argued has been overexposed as late, that would be Damian.

Or if you want to get technical, Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 
> 
> Cowers in fear from Todd fans


You sound like it's not about Tim but the other robins, who are actually much more exposed than Jason (who is the least featured in DCAU). How about skipping the whole Jason's robin tenure in YJ for Tim?
And what does Steph/Cass have to do with Jason being used or not? If they want other Batgirls than Barbara they will have their chance.

----------


## EMarie

Stephanie and Cass being under used falls squarely on DC pushing them into the shadows in favor of making Barbara the only Batgirl. Nothing about that has anything to do with Jason.

Tim being used less has to do with two factors. Damian becoming Robin and making DC unsure where Tim fits in. Damian is in two ongoing series co-leading one book and part of a team book. The second of which Tim actually lead. That's more ongoing titles than Jason. 

DC doesn't promote RHATO, not like it does for other titles like Grayson. The only reason Jason got a title is the same reason he was Injustice 2 as a DLC: fan demand. Overexposed is something like Harley Quinn it's not Jason Todd. I'd love for all these characters to be written more and done justice. But I don't believe for a moment Jason is overshadowing any Robin when we have to constantly demand the character gets used more or written better.

----------


## Red obin

Ok.... so it's mostly what i expected, the comments started out respectful but have been blown out of proportion.

EMarie and others: I'm talking about the general bat family not just Tim or steph or cass. Jason having his own book removes the chance of a bat family book or the others. HOWEVER, this is not to say RHaTO is bad as I hear great things about the current run. The fact that his sales were dropping in Red hood and arsenal though makes me question why he keeps getting another chance. Regarding his sales were only around 15,000 at the end compared to something like red robin (30,000ish) and batgirl (2009)(23,000). I know sales are stupid(i mean look at gotham academy's sales, compared to the quality) to bring up but it does make me question dc sometimes. 

I agree that damian is also quite overexposed.

Also YJ still acknowledges Jason at least. Also YJ was produced before Red hood 'fever.'

I'm not saying completely stop everything Jason but just slow him down and market him at an equal rate of the other Robins. I am happy to have a red hood movie but Tim is needed still. Have Tim the current robin, Jason as red hood and Dick as Nightwing, wait until further down the line for damain. If Batfleck leaves make a batman and robin (2009) movie.

Also I do think think similar things about Barbara just to a lesser extent.

Thanks Assam for backing me up on his overexposure.

BTW i'm still not against comic Jason as much.

(I'm going to be butchered again, aren't I-  I should have left out the sales things)

----------


## Aahz

> EMarie and others: I'm talking about the general bat family not just Tim or steph or cass. Jason having his own book removes the chance of a bat family book or the others. HOWEVER, this is not to say RHaTO is bad as I hear great things about the current run. The fact that his sales were dropping in Red hood and arsenal though makes me question why he keeps getting another chance. Regarding his sales were only around 15,000 at the end compared to something like red robin (30,000ish) and batgirl (2009)(23,000). I know sales are stupid(i mean look at gotham academy's sales, compared to the quality) to bring up but it does make me question dc sometimes.


RHatO and RH/A were not Batfamily books, they are edited by another office and more comparable to Titans.

There might be several reasons why it wasn't called. One might be his Jason success in other media, one might be that they made the decision about the series that continue in Rebirth before the sales droped that heavy (IIRC the last pre rebirth issues of most series had quite low sales) or they liked the Dark Trinity pitch. 
Or they thought that the alternatives would sell even less. At least in case of Cass and Steph it makes imo sense to use something like TEC to reestablisgh them a bit before launching a solo and with Tim they probaly allready had the plan to "kill" him and use him in Rebirth.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm not saying completely stop everything Jason but just slow him down and market him at an equal rate of the other Robins. I am happy to have a red hood movie but Tim is needed still. Have Tim the current robin, Jason as red hood and Dick as Nightwing, wait until further down the line for damain. If Batfleck leaves make a batman and robin (2009) movie.


Ok.  The thing is DC barely markets Jason nor is doing anything other than his team book.  How do you propose slowing down when that's all DC is giving him?  The games are all Netherrealm and Rocksteady and they use Jason because they either like him or the fans demand him.  You're giving DC too much  credits.

Jason fans would be overjoyed if he had the level of promotion Dick and Damian have lbr.

----------


## Red obin

> RHatO and RH/A were not Batfamily books, they are edited by another office and more comparable to Titans.
> 
> There might be several reasons why it wasn't called. One might be his Jason success in other media, one might be that they made the decision about the series that continue in Rebirth before the sales droped that heavy (IIRC the last pre rebirth issues of most series had quite low sales) or they liked the Dark Trinity pitch. 
> Or they thought that the alternatives would sell even less. At least in case of Cass and Steph it makes imo sense to use something like TEC to reestablisgh them a bit before launching a solo and with Tim they probaly allready had the plan to "kill" him and use him in Rebirth.


To be fair, I admit Steph and Cass probably wouldn't sell amazing but they could be on par to a Red Hood Lobdell book. Once again I would like to re-alliterate my point is not about the comics, mostly just outside media.




> Ok.  The thing is DC barely markets Jason nor is doing anything other than his team book.  How do you propose slowing down when that's all DC is giving him?  The games are all Netherrealm and Rocksteady and they use Jason because they either like him or the fans demand him.  You're giving DC too much  credits.
> 
> Jason fans would be overjoyed if he had the level of promotion Dick and Damian have lbr.


I really hate to argue and disagree but he really is being marketed and promoted recently. Damian's marketing is basically the same as Jasons. Dick is definitely most marketable as he is in basically every form of media, nothing has a robin that not Dick without also having him.

----------


## Aahz

Btw, even if you look at Injustice damians part is bigger than Jasons. As a DLC Charcter Jason is not in the story mode and even in the Injustice comics Damian seems to be one of the main protagonists while Jason (assuming that he is the fake Batman) didn't get much character development sofar.

Btw. is there actually a chance that DLC charcters can make it in the main roaster of the next game? I mean Jason and Kory are probaly more popular than main f the the regular characters.

----------


## Red obin

> Btw, even if you look at Injustice damians part is bigger than Jasons. As a DLC Charcter Jason is not in the story mode and even in the Injustice comics Damian seems to be one of the main protagonists while Jason (assuming that he is the fake Batman) didn't get much character development sofar.
> 
> Btw. is there actually a chance that DLC charcters can make it in the main roaster of the next game? I mean Jason and Kory are probaly more popular than main f the the regular characters.


Although it did not happen with the first two games it is possible. Ed Boon did say though that he would never make a DLC character in two games, where they are adds ons in both. If Jason came back he would be on the core cast.

Once again this isn't a 'who's the best robin' scenario, I just said I don't necessarily want him or Damian in YJ or to see UtRH as the first batman movie(maybe later on down the line)

----------


## RedBird

> EMarie and others: I'm talking about the general bat family not just Tim or steph or cass. Jason having his own book removes the chance of a bat family book or the others.


I mean, isn't that what TEC was for?

But regardless, I just dont see the connection you are making between Jason having a TEAM book as taking away from the rest of the batfamily. And of all members, why Jason? If thats your logic why don't we take away one of Damians titles? Or Dicks? Or Barbaras? They all currently have either team books and or solo titles. Thats technically twice as much that they are 'removing the chance of a bat family book', moreso than Jason.





> I'm not saying completely stop everything Jason but just slow him down and market him at an equal rate of the other Robins.


Other robins being who exactly? I would love to see Jason (or tim, or steph, or cass) marketed as much as Dick or Damian right about now. How exactly would you "slow him down"? What has been happening with the character that was just "too much"?





> I am happy to have a red hood movie *but Tim is needed still.*


Tim is not needed, *you* want to see Tim. And thats perfectly fine! I want to see Tim too, on that I can wholeheartedly agree. But notice that similar to the animated universes, in DCEU Jason is dead, skipped over, once again giving Tim the perfect opportunity to start his career as Robin. IF writers actually wanted to introduce him, they would, the time for that would be now. Why is Jason a detriment to that wish in the first place? If anything his current narrative has only made it easier and quicker for Tim to be brought in.


Look I understand that you want to see the rest of the batfamily in other forms of media and with more marketing, I would like that too, but of course people are going to scoff at this notion. You are not asking for Tim (or whichever hero) to be promoted, you are asking that another character be pulled down from the limelight, despite their 'limelight' not coming from actual in house promotion or exposure but mainly coming from the fact that people enjoy that character and want to see him, in both rhato v1 and injustice case literally sending in letters/tweets and begging for the character. Of course people will take issue with that, especially since your focus is on the member that isn't even receiving the most or equal benefits of DCs promotion in the first place.

----------


## RedBird

> I just said I don't necessarily want him or Damian in YJ or to see UtRH as the first batman movie(maybe later on down the line)


I actually agree with you there, I too am not interested in the first DC batman movie being UTRH, I would prefer if Tim were introduced first, and the rest of the family established.

In the case of YJ, I can't agree with not wanting Jason at all, but I am fine if he doesnt show up in s3. Like with the dceu, I would prefer if they took their time with that series.

----------


## Red obin

> I mean, isn't that what TEC was for?
> 
> But regardless, I just dont see the connection you are making between Jason having a TEAM book as taking away from the rest of the batfamily. And of all members, why Jason? If thats your logic why don't we take away one of Damians titles? Or Dicks? Or Barbaras? They all currently have either team books and or solo titles. Thats technically twice as much that they are 'removing the chance of a bat family book', moreso than Jason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other robins being who exactly? I would love to see Jason (or tim, or steph, or cass) marketed as much as Dick or Damian right about now. How exactly would you "slow him down"? What has been happening with the character that was just "too much"?
> 
> ...


Tim may not be needed but he does help, introduces the whole 'pretender' dynamic(see hush)

I'm going to duck out of the arguments now, as I realise i shouldn't have posted this all in a Red hood appreciation thread, however polite and discursive I am I will never win!

----------


## kaimaciel

> Tim may not be needed but he does help, introduces the whole 'pretender' dynamic(see hush)
> 
> I'm going to duck out of the arguments now, as I realise i shouldn't have posted this all in a Red hood appreciation thread, however polite and discursive I am I will never win!


I see your point of view, but you need to understand that Jason has been systematically skipped over since the 90's for Tim and, now in the DCAU, for Damian as well. You claim that Jason's presence takes exposure from Tim, but does it? Jason has one teambook, a animated movie, a cameo in YJ and is a DLC and an antogonist in two games, that's all. How many games, movies, TV shows and comics does Dick appear in? Or Damian? Damian appear in two books: Super Sons and the Teen Titans. Wouldn't make more sense to reduce Damian's exposure instead?

----------


## RedBird

> Tim may not be needed but he does help, introduces the whole 'pretender' dynamic(see hush)


 Again though, that's not a necessity to the dceu, that's a want. It all depends on the writers and how they go about these characters story lines, our desires rest upon them and their plans, otherwise we could spend all day imagining our most ideal route for all the batfamilies introductions and dynamics in the dceu.




> I'm going to duck out of the arguments now, as I realise i shouldn't have posted this all in a Red hood appreciation thread, however polite and discursive I am I will never win!


Sorry, but your argument just didn't add up. If you look into the quantity of exposure, the character is not 'overexposed', and regardless Jasons exposure has not at all been shown in any way to be a detriment on Tim. (and in regards to the girls, as others have stated, Stephs and especially Cass's lackluster exposure have unfortunately been due to Babs not moving on from the role that gained them notoriety)

----------


## Red obin

> Again though, that's not a necessity to the dceu, that's a want. It all depends on the writers and how they go about these characters story lines, our desires rest upon them and their plans, otherwise we could spend all day imagining our most ideal route for all the batfamilies introductions and dynamics in the dceu.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but your argument just didn't add up. If you look into the quantity of exposure, the character is not 'overexposed', and regardless Jasons exposure has not at all been shown in any way to be a detriment on Tim. (and in regards to the girls, as others have stated, Stephs and especially Cass's lackluster exposure have unfortunately been due to Babs not moving on from the role that gained them notoriety)


This was never meant to be about him taking away the limelight originally, it just derailed into that. All I am saying is I dislike how recently Jason has become the 'cool' robin amongst crowds who know less about batman. In my opinion this is due to his portrayal in outside media, mostly arkham knight. This irritates me as he often regresses to this anti batman tone and this means he loses his character development.
It is a similar reason as to why I do't like deadpool. Both are fine characters and I don't mind them, I just don't love their massive following and popularity due to their anti hero portrayal.

Sorry

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Btw, even if you look at Injustice damians part is bigger than Jasons. As a DLC Charcter Jason is not in the story mode and even in the Injustice comics Damian seems to be one of the main protagonists while Jason (assuming that he is the fake Batman) didn't get much character development sofar.
> 
> Btw. is there actually a chance that DLC charcters can make it in the main roaster of the next game? I mean Jason and Kory are probaly more popular than main f the the regular characters.


Damian was worthless in the 5 volumes of Injustice 1 comics. Its only in Injustice 2 that he's taken on a bigger role which Taylor has admitted.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ok.... so it's mostly what i expected, the comments started out respectful but have been blown out of proportion.
> 
> EMarie and others: I'm talking about the general bat family not just Tim or steph or cass. Jason having his own book removes the chance of a bat family book or the others.


The reason you should expect it is because coming to a character`s thread and saying (respectfully as it is yes) that hey, slow down your favorite character because is taking place of others, is a bit....a non existant issue. There`s none. Jason isn`t taking the role of anyone else in either media outlets. I want Jason to have more and keep having *more* disregardless of how others are marketed. That`s not the job for the editor of our book. The job of the editor of our book is to market RATHO and as you will be able to tell, it hasn`t been marketed as much and the job at DC at large is to market and use a popular character who is indeed popular *despite* tags like this:

"_Jason is actually more tragic, since he is remembered as the Robin who failed and died. It's the core of the character which he can't escape._ "

This is the part of the fight in perception the character has been enduring against for decades. 

So, while I do understand your plea - I`m not kidding, I do. I get that you`re tired of hearing fans claiming about a Red Hood movie approach for the 26626636th time - I have little qualms in saying "sorry, bro". I hope you are equally understanding of me shrugging it off when I see the other _baties_ being in better marketed books and still making appearances in other media, anyway.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't think that Jason would really be a "thread" for Tim in other media. If I look at stuff like Young Justice, the Arkham games or Injustice, they seem usually to jump over Jasons time as Robin, so he is not taking much away from Tim.
> 
> 
> But they shouldn't do Under the Red Hood as the first DCEU Batman movie, they should probaly use the first movie to introduce the th Batfamily and a new Robin (if they want to bring in one).


Regarding Tim, he`s kind of required to have the Jason baggage behind. Tim was created because of the backlash over Jason`s death at the time. That was it. Starlin wanted Robin gone and the moment he leaves the book after the whole controversy, they decide to make another one to appease fans. 

So, how do you present Tim the way you would want him to be presented - like in them comics - without Jason`s story being unreveiled first? Where`s the emotional pouch for the introduction, for the audience to care?

----------


## Assam

Couple things:

- Just to clarify what I said, while I do feel that Jason gets a good amount of exposure and is NOT *under*exposed, he also most certainly isn't* over*exposed like Dick, Damian and Babs. (Or Bruce himself for that matter) Though the Presence knows Youtube makes it feel that way sometimes. 




> To be fair, I admit Steph and Cass probably wouldn't sell amazing but they could be on par to a Red Hood Lobdell book.


For the record, the sales for their books _never_ got as low as the sales for the current Batgirl book, Cass's not even getting close. Different market I know, but yeah, I think it's fair to say that they could sell around the same numbers as Red Hood. (From what I've seen, despite some long-time Cass fans not being satisfied with CurrentCass, her fanbase has only grown. 'Tec's Steph though has only pissed people off it seems) 




> The reason you should expect it is because coming to a character`s thread and saying (respectfully as it is yes) that hey, slow down your favorite character because is taking place of others, is a bit....a non existant issue.


Yeah, I tilted my head when I saw they posted that here, mostly because they also posted it in other threads as well, and going on to include it in Jay's appreciation thread seemed odd. 




> "_Jason is actually more tragic, since he is remembered as the Robin who failed and died. It's the core of the character which he can't escape._ "


That a direct quote from someone at DC? F**king victim blaming BS.

----------


## Aioros22

> This was never meant to be about him taking away the limelight originally, it just derailed into that. All I am saying is I dislike how recently Jason has become the 'cool' robin amongst crowds who know less about batman. In my opinion this is due to his portrayal in outside media, mostly arkham knight. This irritates me as he often regresses to this anti batman tone and this means he loses his character development.
> It is a similar reason as to why I do't like deadpool. Both are fine characters and I don't mind them, I just don't love their massive following and popularity due to their anti hero portrayal.
> 
> Sorry


Well, that`s fine, that`s your taste. You don`t like anti-heroes. Well, it`s what they are at the core and if that`s how it comes up in the games you`ve seen is because it`s how his iconic return is usually handled and it`s handled in that way because said return is a strong story with all the right componentes and instrumental for Jason`s later development.

It`s the beginning of the journey.  If he`s cool the he`s cool. You can`t fight the chemistry characters make with audiences.

----------


## RedBird

> This was never meant to be about him taking away the limelight originally, it just derailed into that. All I am saying is I dislike how recently Jason has become the 'cool' robin amongst crowds who know less about batman. In my opinion this is due to his portrayal in outside media, mostly arkham knight. This irritates me as he often regresses to this anti batman tone and this means he loses his character development.
> It is a similar reason as to why I do't like deadpool. Both are fine characters and I don't mind them, I just don't love their massive following and popularity due to their anti hero portrayal.
> 
> Sorry


I totally get the frustration, and theres no need for apologies, I just simply disagree with some of your conclusions is all.

Honestly though what you are saying right now is completely understandable, once characters reach a more wider or mainstream audience unfortunately thats usually the double edged sword that comes with the situation, they are regressed into their most basic attributes, or marketable points, it comes with the territory. I mean, how many people who dont read comic books even know that batman is a father? Or has pretty much been a father for 70+ years? A lot of the nuance is lost, and in Jasons case he does become 'the cool rebel with guns', its how he is best marketed, and it has proven itself a success, especially with crowds who love the whole anti hero punisher-esque stuff. (Or at least I assume). Its a niche he has finally found himself in after years of meandering. Yeah the fans chanting for a red hood movie can get tiring, but it kinda feels like a non issue, since well, fans are just gonna do as they want. 

I have talked about this concerning Tim before, and the unfortunate thing is Tim has yet to find a niche or place where he can be marketed in order to draw in a larger crowd, after the Robin identity was taken from him, he hasn't quite been able to bounce back and find a new place or identity that resonates enough with people outside of comics. Its why DC have been floundering about for the past 5 years trying to make him the 'techspert' of the family since that role wasn't taken by Babs anymore and its a common niche. (btw this is not me saying that characters can't share roles or attributes, in fact I hate that they are pigeon holed like this, (including Jason. I despise the 'bad/failed robin' image he has been stuck with) rather I'm just talking about DCs own practice here).

----------


## G-Potion

> To be fair, I admit Steph and Cass probably wouldn't sell amazing but they could be on par to a Red Hood Lobdell book. Once again I would like to re-alliterate my point is not about the comics, mostly just outside media.
> 
> 
> 
> I really hate to argue and disagree but he really is being marketed and promoted recently. Damian's marketing is basically the same as Jasons. Dick is definitely most marketable as he is in basically every form of media, nothing has a robin that not Dick without also having him.


Can you show me where that is that Jason is being promoted by DC? Even at SDCC they didn't bother mentioning RHATO. At the start of Rebirth DC also lumped it together  with "the rest of Rebirth books" while most of the Bat books have live panels featuring the creative teams. If you mean in other media,  again,  it was thanks to the game developers and not DC.

----------


## Red obin

> Can you show me where that is that Jason is being promoted by DC? Even at SDCC they didn't bother mentioning RHATO. At the start of Rebirth DC also lumped it together  with "the rest of Rebirth books" while most of the Bat books have live panels featuring the creative teams. If you mean in other media,  again,  it was thanks to the game developers and not DC.


Yeah sorry I menat outside media more and merchandise.

I think we have come to a good point where everyone understands everyone's points now. I think my phrasing was just a bit poor at the start meaning it became another whose the best Robin chat rather then Jason's portrayal.

----------


## RedBird

Guys Dexter Soy is such a fanboy its killing me XD

dexter.JPG

Also, I want this helmet!

----------


## G-Potion

> Guys Dexter Soy is such a fanboy its killing me XD
> 
> dexter.JPG
> 
> Also, I want this helmet!


If they can do the helmet, they can do the rest of his getup. Come on.  :Cool:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Sales numbers fro July are out and RHATO returned to the top 100

 85. Red Hood and the Outlaws #12 (DC) - 26,251 [81]

----------


## darkseidpwns

White Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sales numbers fro July are out and RHATO returned to the top 100
> 
>  85. Red Hood and the Outlaws #12 (DC) - 26,251 [81]


Sold out and everything.  :Cool:

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## JasonTodd428

> Ok.... so it's mostly what i expected, the comments started out respectful but have been blown out of proportion.


I have to be honest with you I really did laugh at your assertion that Jason is overexposed because I think your overreacting to his appearances. That's the honestly truth and I'm sorry if that came off as disrespectful. 




> EMarie and others: I'm talking about the general bat family not just Tim or steph or cass. Jason having his own book removes the chance of a bat family book or the others. HOWEVER, this is not to say RHaTO is bad as I hear great things about the current run. The fact that his sales were dropping in Red hood and arsenal though makes me question why he keeps getting another chance. Regarding his sales were only around 15,000 at the end compared to something like red robin (30,000ish) and batgirl (2009)(23,000). I know sales are stupid(i mean look at gotham academy's sales, compared to the quality) to bring up but it does make me question dc sometimes.


Nope. The existence of Jason's book doesn't effect how many other "Bat Family" books are or are not made. That decision rests with others and Jason's book existing has nothing to do with it especially since his book is not even being edited in the Bat office. If DC wanted to have say a Red Robin book then they would publish one and the existence of RHATO wouldn't have anything to do with it. Also he has a book likely because of the popularity of the UtRH animated movie and because of fan demand. THAT is why he keeps getting chances. As for RH/A that was a bit of an odd book and perhaps some fans were put off by it besides pretty much every book during the DC You period suffered from low sales but I don't think that means they were necessarily bad books in and of themselves. The entire initiative was pretty much a failure if you look at it from a sale perspective but personally I thought most of the books were good.  




> I agree that damian is also quite overexposed.


More so than Jason is I would say since they have cut him out of the  current animated movie-verse completely and have only Dick and Damian as the Robins.




> Also YJ still acknowledges Jason at least. Also YJ was produced before Red hood 'fever.'


They may have acknowledged his existence but they again skipped over him again in favor of Tim. Also he's back to being a cautionary tale again there. 

[


> I'm not saying completely stop everything Jason but just slow him down and market him at an equal rate of the other Robins. I am happy to have a red hood movie but Tim is needed still. Have Tim the current robin, Jason as red hood and Dick as Nightwing, wait until further down the line for damain. If Batfleck leaves make a batman and robin (2009) movie.


Slow what down exactly? 

Appearence breakdown:

Dick: Two titles in the current Rebirth universe (one a solo and one a team book), multiple live action appearances, multiple animated appearances (cartoons and movies, multiple game appearances.

Jason: One team book and a few appearances in other books currently, no live action appearances at all, one animate movie but is consistently skipped over entirely in cartoons with only a mention or a character fusion (Tim Drake in B:TAS), 2 game appearances.

Tim: one team book (at least until he was "killed") and supposedly a big part in the whole Rebirth deal, no live action, multiple animated appearances, multiple game appearances.

Damian: Two books currently, no live action, multiple animated movie appearances, multiple game appearances. 

Seems to me that Dick is the one that is over exposed not Jason. Jason doesn't even merit a solo book of any kind at all even. 

Also they don't promote his book as much as they should. It gets little if any promotion at all and has to rely on word of mouth and reviews almost exclusively.

----------


## Aioros22

> Guys Dexter Soy is such a fanboy its killing me XD
> 
> dexter.JPG
> 
> Also, I want this helmet!


Soy is the Perez to our Jason  :Cool:  guy loves them Hood!

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## Aioros22

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;3015953]Sales numbers fro July are out and RHATO returned to the top 100

 85. Red Hood and the Outlaws #12 (DC) 

Hurrah! Good news.

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## JasonTodd428

> Sales numbers fro July are out and RHATO returned to the top 100
> 
>  85. Red Hood and the Outlaws #12 (DC) - 26,251 [81]


Good to hear.

----------


## Aioros22

https://soundcloud.com/parlipod/ep60-mister-miracle

Damn, bringing up Robinson`s Starman when discussing the current RATHO. No small praise there.

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## G-Potion

I'm not familiar with the character so it went over my head at the time. Mind sharing your thoughts?

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## AJpyro

> I'm not familiar with the character so it went over my head at the time. Mind sharing your thoughts?


Not Aioros but I can say this: Starman is one of the best legacy heroes ever to be created and the eighty issue run has been rec. alot. Now if DC would finally reprint them...

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## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Drawn_Fresh/stat...77648407318528


Oooo nice one. Too bad I don`t like the back.

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## Assam

Starman is one of the best cape comics ever published. Much as I like Red Hood and The Outlaws currently, I don't really think it's comparable. Don't know if that's what was done, but you didn't specify. It they were just bringing up similar themes and ideas that they noticed, fair enough. 




> Now if DC would finally reprint them...


I mean we got the Starman Omnibus.

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## Aioros22

> Not Aioros but I can say this: Starman is one of the best legacy heroes ever to be created and the eighty issue run has been rec. alot. Now if DC would finally reprint them...


Yeah, it`s a writer`s run that has reached iconic status and made a name on itself. Like Gaiman`s name will always be attached to Sandman, so is Robinson to Starman. Thread all you want here, there`s no shades of Cry for Justice (and I suspect that had Office meedlings in the middle anyway), this is by far his finest work ever. Luckily, to me, I found his more recent _The Shade_ run to be as engaging but without the same world building.

How should I resume the run in few words? It`s the best love letter about the Golden Age Superhero era in the DCU.

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## Aioros22

> Starman is one of the best cape comics ever published. Much as I like Red Hood and The Outlaws currently, I don't really think it's comparable. Don't know if that's what was done, but you didn't specify. It they were just bringing up similar themes and ideas that they noticed, fair enough. 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean we got the Starman Omnibus.


Similar themes and sense of family done well. Strong character work with dreamlike tendencies. Both current Loedbell and Robinson in Starman threaded heavily in phycological writing to _different_ effect.

The other run brought in was Peter David`s Incredible Hulk series.

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## AJpyro

> Similar themes and sense of family done well. Strong character work with dreamlike tendencies. Both current Loedbell and Robinson in Starman threaded heavily in phycological writing to _different_ effect.
> 
> The other run brought in was Peter David`s Incredible Hulk series.


Ideally, I want this Outlaws to get as many issues as Cass Batgirl by Puckett.

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## Assam

> Ideally, I want this Outlaws to get as many issues as Cass Batgirl by Puckett.


You know it's weird. Much as I enjoy the current Outlaws, they haven't really connected with me. Don't get me wrong, I like the cast. Artemis and Bizarro are great and the book has made me like Jason more than D&D, but if we did only end up getting 37  great issues with this crew, I don't think I'd be sad about it. Assuming this doesn't all end in tragedy of course. 

Um, if someone doesn't mind answering, what caused the original Outlaws to split up?

----------


## Alycat

I hope this group lasts a long time. I'm glad Jason has friends. Good/ Interesting ones that aren't Dicks old ones either.

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## AJpyro

> You know it's weird. Much as I enjoy the current Outlaws, they haven't really connected with me. Don't get me wrong, I like the cast. Artemis and Bizarro are great and the book has made me like Jason more than D&D, but if we did only end up getting 37  great issues with this crew, I don't think I'd be sad about it. Assuming this doesn't all end in tragedy of course. 
> 
> Um, if someone doesn't mind answering, what caused the original Outlaws to split up?


Uh...something something DCYou...something something...You know I really can't remember.

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## JasonTodd428

> You know it's weird. Much as I enjoy the current Outlaws, they haven't really connected with me. Don't get me wrong, I like the cast. Artemis and Bizarro are great and the book has made me like Jason more than D&D, but if we did only end up getting 37  great issues with this crew, I don't think I'd be sad about it. Assuming this doesn't all end in tragedy of course. 
> 
> Um, if someone doesn't mind answering, what caused the original Outlaws to split up?


If I remember correctly Starfire simply left the group to take care of her sister wasn't it? Roy and Jason split up because Jason basically pushed him away claiming that Roy could do better then him for a friend. This was in reaction to events in the last arc of RH/A where Roy was nearly killed via an internet poll. Basically Jason pushed him away out of fear that he might actually lose someone close to him.

----------


## TheCape

> If I remember correctly Starfire simply left the group to take care of her sister wasn't it? Roy and Jason split up because Jason basically pushed him away claiming that Roy could do better then him for a friend. This was in reaction to events in the last arc of RH/A where Roy was nearly killed via an internet poll. Basically Jason pushed him away out of fear that he might actually lose someone close to him.


Weirdly enought i actually agreed with Jason reasoning, he should stay far away from the superhero communitie most of the time

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## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/drawn_fresh/stat...77648407318528
> 
> 
> oooo nice one. Too bad i don`t like the back.


awesome image.

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## Aahz

> If I remember correctly Starfire simply left the group to take care of her sister wasn't it?


Exactly, actually the whole group split, at that point Jason and Roy just teamed up again in beginning of RH/A. And Kory was actually back on earth for her own solo soon afterwards...

The reall reason were of course that Kory got a solo (and was then put in Damian's Teen Titans) and that Roy was put back in Titans. Btw. was there any other DC series post rebirth that lost main characters for such reasons?

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## Alycat

> Exactly, actually the whole group split, at that point Jason and Roy just teamed up again in beginning of RH/A. And Kory was actually back on earth for her own solo soon afterwards...
> 
> The reall reason were of course that Kory got a solo (and was then put in Damian's Teen Titans) and that Roy was put back in Titans. Btw. was there any other DC series post rebirth that lost main characters for such reasons?


The Teen Titans count I think.

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## Aahz

One point to the Jason is overexposed discussion. 

I'm still not really sure if Jason is really better of than Tim, Steph and Cass. He gets probaly more screen time in RHatO. But TEC is the much more populat title and has now basically one event after the next, and Jason didn't got a leading role in a big Batman story like Cass League of Shadow arc or the arc Tim will get soon in a long time.

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## Godlike13

Jason is far better off then averaging one arc a year.

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## Assam

> One point to the Jason is overexposed discussion. 
> 
> I'm still not really sure if Jason is really better of than Tim, Steph and Cass. He gets probaly more screen time in RHatO. But TEC is the much more populat title and has now basically one event after the next, and Jason didn't got a leading role in a big Batman story like Cass League of Shadow arc or the arc Tim will get soon in a long time.


Jason gets more panel time in a single issue *on average* than Cass does in 3 or 4. She may get an arc once a year, but Jason still does a Hell of a lot more, getting good scenes and moments in every issue, and always contributing to the plot. Steph and Tim aren't even worth bringing up since it's entirely possible that Steph is just going keep popping up after each major arc for her own shenanigans in a mini arc, and Tim's been missing for a year. Yes he's getting an upcoming arc, but we have no idea what that's leading to. 

Sorry, but I really don't think this point has any basis.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason gets more panel time in a single issue *on average* than Cass does in 3 or 4.


But TEC has twice as many issues which compensates a little in terms of panel time. 
And TEC is read by far more people (sales are a little more than twice the ones of RHatO).

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## Assam

> But TEC has twice as many issues which compensates a little in terms of panel time.


Look at the most recent arc of 'Tec: The first issue she got a good scene, the second issue she didn't do anything, the third issue she wasn't in, the fourth issue was the best for her, but that's simply because Barrows drew a really well choreographed fight that also tied in to previously explained desires, and the fifth issue had her do just as little as the second issue, only elevated by the "Yes" heard round the fandom. Compare that with any two issues of RHatO, and Jason gets both more time and meaningful time across the board. And remember, she was doing even _less_ while Tim and Steph were still around. 




> And TEC is read by far more people (sales are a little more than twice the ones of RHatO).


Not sure what your point is with this one. Are you trying to say you'd prefer it if Jason were in 'Tec to having his own title so that more people would be reading about him? Regardless of your opinion of 'Tec, I think that's rather silly. Especially since it isn't like Jason's new or hasn't been seen in a long time like most of the 'Tec team.  People know him, either through the comics or through outside media. His fans are already reading this book, and while stragglers like myself may  come in upon a recommendation, Jason wouldn't become a great deal more popular by being a side character in a team book, regardless of how many people it's read by.

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## Aioros22

> But TEC has twice as many issues which compensates a little in terms of panel time. 
> And TEC is read by far more people (sales are a little more than twice the ones of RHatO).


The only person in TEC that got more panel time than Jason is Batman and maybe Batwoman. 

The rest don`t. Apples and oranges.

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## Alycat

> But TEC has twice as many issues which compensates a little in terms of panel time. 
> And TEC is read by far more people (sales are a little more than twice the ones of RHatO).


But only Batman and Batwoman get substantial and consistent panel time. None of the rest come close to Jason's and some people are lucky to get dialogue.

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## Aioros22

If you ask me, I rather Jason have a quality title with his own name in the ballot than being a Cass or Tim in TEC - no offense meant, I don`t want to trade a leading role that has done wonders for the character`s development over a 5th or 6th member of a Batman task force.

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## AJpyro

> If you ask me, I rather Jason have a quality title with his own name in the ballot than being a Cass or Tim in TEC - no offense meant, I don`t want to trade a leading role that has done wonders for the character`s development over a 5th or 6th member of a Batman task force.


Seconding. It may not get as much recognition but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

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## Alycat

> If you ask me, I rather Jason have a quality title with his own name in the ballot than being a Cass or Tim in TEC - no offense meant, I don`t want to trade a leading role that has done wonders for the character`s development over a 5th or 6th member of a Batman task force.


This is always going to be my problem with Tim in Tec until I'm shown otherwise.

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## G-Potion

> If you ask me, I rather Jason have a quality title with his own name in the ballot than being a Cass or Tim in TEC - no offense meant, I don`t want to trade a leading role that has done wonders for the character`s development over a 5th or 6th member of a Batman task force.


I already shudder  at imagining Jason in a Batman task force.

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## Alycat

> I already shudder  at imagining Jason in a Batman task force.


I mean you could argue that everyone in the Eternal series were part of a Batman Task force. Or any time they group up. Or that time he was Wingman.

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## G-Potion

> I mean you could argue that everyone in the Eternal series were part of a Batman Task force. Or any time they group up. Or that time he was Wingman.


That's true.  Maybe  it feels different in this case because it would be more official and permanent. And Jason in a Bat group setting has rarely been written right.

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## JasonTodd428

To add to the Jason is overexposed discussion:

RHATO only has a team of three though so that is why Jason gets more panel time then Steph, Cass or Tim do. That is not a factor of whether a company is pushing a character or if the character is overexposed but rather of the size of the team itself and the skill of the writer in question. Panel time is a tricky thing and gets even more so the larger the team involved is. Some writers are able to balance panel time fairly well, some are hit and miss and some just can't seem handle a large team without someone being underutilized.

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## Aioros22

It`s not just the size of the team. It`s still less than the TEC team but at one point RATHO had Jason, Kory, Roy, Crux and Rose Wilson. It`s that Jason`s name is the one headling the book`s title. It`s him name presenting the Outlaws and he`s the reason every Outlaws formation have banded together. 

There`s a constant main character focus on him in all three volumes that you don`t get by being the 6th member of a task force. Cass and JPV will have their arcs in TEC but Jason will always have main character treatment every issue in his book.

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## SpentShrimp

> But it would be nice if he would be more consistently written to be good at something outside of his book.


I can agree with that. But not if it means being a Mary Sue

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## kiwiliko

So knowing that Batwoman was going to appear in the next RHATO, I decided to catch up on some batwoman appearances (newbie to DC but I'm making my way through slow and steady) and while I suspect it's probably old news for lots of you, I still found this pretty cool.

Poor Jason is just never going to catch a break but I suppose silver lining he's always someone so well loved by his found families that they never truly recover from losing him in nearly any alternate verse. A bit of a character that embodies "better to have love and lost than never to love at all"

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## Caivu

A future version of Jason is apparently in Batwoman #6 this week.

----------


## EMarie

Whenever I hear about Jason appearing in other books I mentally cringe. Call it a reflex from bad experience.

----------


## Alycat

> A future version of Jason is apparently in Batwoman #6 this week.


He's got a cane too apparently.

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## Caivu

> He's got a cane too apparently.


And a sick eye patch. _And_ a trench coat!

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## Alycat

> And a sick eye patch. _And_ a trench coat!


Kinda reminds me of Batman Beyond Dick.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Whenever I hear about Jason appearing in other books I mentally cringe. Call it a reflex from bad experience.


Honestly it doesn't seem it will break the trend. They didn't even bothered to keep the same typography for his dialogue boxes. 

Then again, is foolish to expect anything better from Tynion or Bennet.

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## Caivu

> Honestly it doesn't seem it will break the trend. They didn't even bothered to keep the same typography for his dialogue boxes. 
> 
> Then again, is foolish to expect anything better from Tynion or Bennet.


Uh, hey. That's likely a decision on the part of the letterer. And it _is_ a future version of Jason, which is reason enough to change it. It doesn't seem like he's Red Hood anymore, nor has he been for a while.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Uh, hey. That's likely a decision on the part of the letterer. And it _is_ a future version of Jason, which is reason enough to change it. It doesn't seem like he's Red Hood anymore, nor has he been for a while.


Except that the entire reason people are assuming is Jason, _is the red hood helmet on his dialogue boxes_

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## Caivu

> Except that the entire reason people are assuming is Jason, _is the red hood helmet on his dialogue boxes_


Yes, and that's to confirm to us, the audience, that it's him. We know exactly who he is without his name being mentioned or having any part of his character design reflect the Red Hood costume. And he's pretty clearly with the Colony now.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *Yes, and that's to confirm to us, the audience, that it's him. We know exactly who he is without his name being mentioned or having any part of his character design reflect the Red Hood costume.* And he's pretty clearly with the Colony now.


And that is why is irritating they aren't using the typography he has had for _years_ (and not only on his title but on every title he has shown up I might add) since is a distinction that is only being made for the audience's benefit, otherwise they could use standard narration boxes like Batman Beyond does.

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## Caivu

> And that is why is irritating they aren't using the typography he has had for _years_ (and not only on his title but on every title he has shown up I might add)* since is a distinction that is only being made for the audience's benefit,* otherwise they could use standard narration boxes like Batman Beyond does.


"For the audience's benefit" is the exact point. What if Jason's name isn't mentioned in this issue until halfway through? Or at all? How on earth are readers supposed to know who he is before that? This lets them know almost instantly.

Edit: Aaaand I just looked up and reminded myself of what Jason's captions are "supposed" to look like. The two aren't even that different. Mountain out of a molehill, man. The only important thing is that they can easily be identified as Jason's and that's the case.

----------


## G-Potion

Well on the bright side, Jason is starting to get appearances in other books so I'm cautiously optimistic. It's his birthday. Trinity and Batwoman better be kind to him.  :Cool:

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## darkseidpwns

> Whenever I hear about Jason appearing in other books I mentally cringe. Call it a reflex from bad experience.


Tynion and Jason Todd in one book should make any sane person cringe. Remember the last time? For your sake I hope you dont.

But that said the opening pages of BW dont look bad.

----------


## Aahz

> Look at the most recent arc of 'Tec: The first issue she got a good scene, the second issue she didn't do anything, the third issue she wasn't in, the fourth issue was the best for her, but that's simply because Barrows drew a really well choreographed fight that also tied in to previously explained desires, and the fifth issue had her do just as little as the second issue, only elevated by the "Yes" heard round the fandom. Compare that with any two issues of RHatO, and Jason gets both more time and meaningful time across the board. And remember, she was doing even _less_ while Tim and Steph were still around.


And before that she was the lead in a 6 issue story arc.






> Not sure what your point is with this one. Are you trying to say you'd prefer it if Jason were in 'Tec to having his own title so that more people would be reading about him?


Just that when it is about exposure it is also important how many how many people are actually reading the book. A solo book that nobody is reading (OK RHatO is still out of this area) gives imo a character less exposure than a popular team book. The current TEC run is for example probably doing much more for Luke than his Batwing solo.

As a fan of Jason I would of course like him to have his own title (I would even like to get a solo over the Outlaws), but when it comes to increasing his popularity, him kicking some ass in a bigger Batfamily story would probably help more (as long it is well written and not how they handled him in the previous events).

----------


## RedBird

> Poor Jason is just never going to catch a break but I suppose silver lining he's always someone so well loved by his found families that they never truly recover from losing him in nearly any alternate verse. A bit of a character that embodies "better to have love and lost than never to love at all"


Yeah that comic was actually quite bittersweet, I had already been reading bombshells and had gotten attached to this alternate Kate (and Renee), so despite the fleeting nature of the relationship in the book, this Jason death still hit me hard.

Though it is kinda funny looking at Jason in current continuity and realizing that Kate and Renee 'momed' him in another life.

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## Aioros22

> Tynion and Jason Todd in one book should make any sane person cringe. Remember the last time? For your sake I hope you dont.
> 
> But that said the opening pages of BW dont look bad.


God, I hope he beats Shiva again. 

"Don`t you ever learn Lady? I`m the freaking Tramp and this is trashcanville"

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah that comic was actually quite bittersweet, I had already been reading bombshells and had gotten attached to this alternate Kate (and Renee), so despite the fleeting nature of the relationship in the book, this Jason death still hit me hard.
> 
> Though it is kinda funny looking at Jason in current continuity and realizing that Kate and Renee 'momed' him in another life.


For the most part, that comic was alternative death done well, It was really bittersweet due to how emotionally honest it comes out as.

----------


## Aioros22

Birthday week has been spawning quite the fanart of our boy. 

http://roadnorth92.tumblr.com/


http://maridoodles.tumblr.com/


https://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com/

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## RedBird

Old but still good
m-alejandrita.tumblr.com

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## JasonTodd428

> Just that when it is about exposure it is also important how many how many people are actually reading the book. A solo book that nobody is reading (OK RHatO is still out of this area) gives imo a character less exposure than a popular team book. The current TEC run is for example probably doing much more for Luke than his Batwing solo.


I think its far more important that characters have "good" exposure rather than "bad" exposure wherever they appear. A team book might give them wider exposure depending on what that book is but, IMHO, bad exposure in such a title defeats the purpose of having the character involved in the first place. Continuous bad outings only make people write a character off and it certain doesn't make them interested enough to run out and buy that character's solo. 




> As a fan of Jason I would of course like him to have his own title (I would even like to get a solo over the Outlaws), but when it comes to increasing his popularity, him kicking some ass in a bigger Batfamily story would probably help more (as long it is well written and not how they handled him in the previous events).


Because of how often he's been handled poorly over the years when involved in bigger Bat Family stories I'd much rather he was left out of them at least until they can find a writer that can be bothered to do the research on the character and not just use him to prop up some other one. I'm sick and tired of writers who can't be bothered to keep current on characters they may plan to use.

----------


## Aahz

> I think its far more important that characters have "good" exposure rather than "bad" exposure wherever they appear. A team book might give them wider exposure depending on what that book is but, IMHO, bad exposure in such a title defeats the purpose of having the character involved in the first place. Continuous bad outings only make people write a character off and it certain doesn't make them interested enough to run out and buy that character's solo. 
> 
> 
> 
> Because of how often he's been handled poorly over the years when involved in bigger Bat Family stories I'd much rather he was left out of them at least until they can find a writer that can be bothered to do the research on the character and not just use him to prop up some other one. I'm sick and tired of writers who can't be bothered to keep current on characters they may plan to use.


TEC seems sofar mostly good exposure (maybe appart from Steph) that Jasons appearence in things like the Eternals were pretty bad is an other story. But if he would get some good exposer in a Batfamily storyline (like many other Batfamily members) that would imo help the character a lot.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> TEC seems sofar mostly good exposure (maybe appart from Steph) that Jasons appearence in things like the Eternals were pretty bad is an other story. But if he would get some good exposer in a Batfamily storyline (like many other Batfamily members) that would imo help the character a lot.


Beyond the fact that I don't personally care for Tynion's writing, his run on RHATO was probably one of the worst things I've ever read so I don't really want him anywhere near the character. YMMV on that but I just don't trust him with the character. Jason has has good exposure here and there but the bad exposure he gets, especially in Bat family storylines, far outweighs the good. I'd much rather DC give Jason a solo title in addition to his team book like most of the rest of the other Robins have had over the years instead.

----------


## Aioros22

As far as exposure goes, we`re talking of two things that don`t always go hand in hand. TEC has more exposure than RATHO. We can all agree on it. It`s one of the iconic titles of the house and the oldest "Batman" title of the line, and thus gets more out of promotion (also because the number of characters who have decent fanbases, I`m aware, Bizarro and Artemis are pretty much a work in progress) but most of the characters in TEC do not get the pane/story(character leading threathment that Jason does in RATHO. 

In fact, even disregarding Eternal, Jason`s appearances in other crossovers like Deathstroke, Nigthwing, Supergil and the upcoming Trinity makes him also one of the most used bat characters (as in more panel time) of the line. Again, more than pretty much anyone save Batman and Batwoman.

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## Aahz

> Beyond the fact that I don't personally care for Tynion's writing, his run on RHATO was probably one of the worst things I've ever read so I don't really want him anywhere near the character. YMMV on that but I just don't trust him with the character. Jason has has good exposure here and there but the bad exposure he gets, especially in Bat family storylines, far outweighs the good. I'd much rather DC give Jason a solo title in addition to his team book like most of the rest of the other Robins have had over the years instead.


I never said that they should put Jason in the current TEC (I don't mind Tynions RHatO run so much but he was also one of the guy behind the Eternals), but with the right writer (and that unfortunatly nighter one of the current writers of the big Batman series) a story line like this could give him a big push.

But at least for me it doesn't really look like his next appearences in Trinity and Batwoman or even the guest appearances in of Dick and the TEC team in RHatO will do that.

----------


## Aioros22

Some awesome portraits here (just don`t let Assam see this because the girls aren`t here). Jason`s of course is the best one  :Wink: 

http://toxic-daisy-valery.tumblr.com/


You can_ feel_ the spunk on this one.

----------


## Aahz

> In fact, even disregarding Eternal, Jason`s appearances in other crossovers like Deathstroke, Nigthwing, Supergil and the upcoming Trinity makes him also one of the most used bat characters (as in more panel time) of the line. Again, more than pretty much anyone save Batman and Batwoman.


Jason was in Nightwing for maybe one page, and Dick and Damian are probably also more used than Jason. And the Eternals (and stuff like Robin War and I am Bane) are unfortunately much bigger storylines than Deathstroke, Supergirl and Trinity. And it also looks like he is not in Metal.

----------


## Aahz

Thats a team up I would like to see, but they had of course to add also Casey Jones.

----------


## Aioros22

> So knowing that Batwoman was going to appear in the next RHATO, I decided to catch up on some batwoman appearances (newbie to DC but I'm making my way through slow and steady) and while I suspect it's probably old news for lots of you, I still found this pretty cool.
> 
> Poor Jason is just never going to catch a break but I suppose silver lining he's always someone so well loved by his found families that they never truly recover from losing him in nearly any alternate verse. A bit of a character that embodies "better to have love and lost than never to love at all"


The only thing I dislike is that the story presents his death as a awakening to Kate to take things more seriously Or should I say, the death of bronze age to the grim n` gritty  :Wink:  On the other hand..



This part helps to make up for it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason was in Nightwing for maybe one page, and Dick and Damian are probably also more used than Jason. And the Eternals (and stuff like Robin War and I am Bane) are unfortunately much bigger storylines than Deathstroke, Supergirl and Trinity. And it also looks like he is not in Metal.


I`m comparing who appears in TEC and RATHO. That was the argument at hand. Nigthwing and Damian are almost obviously used more. Damian and Jason may compete for the spot but Dick is a sure bet. 

Jason was in both _Robin War_ and _I am Bane_ and particularly in the second arc, he shares the same number of panels the others do, so I don`t see the biggie. Take these out and neither Tim, Cass, JPV and Luke have as many crossover appearances to other titles. Not even when Tim was leading the Titans.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## Aioros22

Roy`s chipmunk gaze is precious.

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Alex_Antone/stat...36654971138050

Cool seeing Bizarro art from @urbanbarbarian, @rileyrossmo1 & @dextersoy on this list -- way to go, fellas!


http://www.cbr.com/reasons-bizarro-i...R-TW&view=list

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo


https://twitter.com/koumorimura

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Asian fans are _very_ dedicated 




If anyone can find the source, it would be amazing

----------


## Assam

> just don`t let Assam see this because the girls aren`t here.


Now hey, just because I'm actively revolted by, and quit following anyone who posts art of the Robins without Steph, Bruce's kids without Cass, or the BatFamily as a whole without either of them, doesn't mean I can't appreciate when one of these atrocities against mankind is still well-drawn, and these portraits are excellent in that regard. I agree about Jason's being the best!

----------


## Aioros22

Ah, I was just pulling your leg a little bit. If the artist ever does the same for the girls too, I`ll be sure to post it.

----------


## Caivu

New Minkyu Jung sketch:

Screenshot_20170815-203204.jpg

----------


## Alycat

I wouldn't mind more of Jung's Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

You can tell is not a fast paced linework and I like it.

----------


## G-Potion

Cool art.  I like Jung's Jason as well. Would you happen to know what it is for?

----------


## Aioros22

You gotta love the helmet with the lips being there  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___ (same link for the birthday artwork of the post above)




Roy and Kory sitting at the tableeee

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___




We Were Outlaws

----------


## G-Potion

Aaah so many good arts.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

Don't mean to dampen the mood but the latest Trinity was so, meh. 

*spoilers:*
Jasons helmet and its uses get worse and worse, and add to that my most major annoyance being that Bizarro is done completely wrong. He is back to doing the backwards talking thing rather than his imperfect speech patterns in rhato, did no editor check this over?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

Haven`t got it yet but it wouldn`t surprise me on Bizarro.

Nobody will write him like Loedbell does, guaranteed. Too much a writer`s character and not enough ham-fisted editors.

----------


## Alycat

Haven't read Trinity yet, but that's no surprise. Old man Jason in Batwoman is  nice though.

----------


## RedBird

> Haven't read Trinity yet, but that's no surprise. Old man Jason in Batwoman is  nice though.


Thats true, it was.  :Smile: 

Although I feel thats due to the fact that he only appeared for like 2 pages, its easy to be inoffensive when theres less to judge from, that said I do hope Tynion keeps this up though, Old Jason did look pretty cool.

----------


## Aioros22

When it comes to certain writers sometimes less is more and that`s not a knock.

----------


## Aioros22

http://fish-ghost.tumblr.com/


Demon in your head

----------


## G-Potion

That was fast haha.

----------


## Aioros22

Artists don`t sleep, they cat nap.

----------


## okiedokiewo

I mostly enjoyed/didn't have a problem with Trinity, except Bizarro wasn't really the way he's written in RHATO, which was too bad. But I can't complain about a storyline with Bruce caring about Jason. And I hope we get to see everyone interact when they're not possessed.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m really curious to read it, half expecting some details like that to be off-the bat and to be the worse you can get (which would speak well for the rest, wouldn`t it). If the issue is generally well handled, I`ll read the rest. 

Picking this and Batwoman today. Caviu`s notes about the spoilers make me thirsty to read it. I love AU and this one seems to have a nice setup and it`s the first appearance of Old Man Jason ever, isn`t it? Hoping he doesn`t lose that smirk and sass despite using a cane and the eyepatch.

Chekya later

----------


## RedBird

> I mostly enjoyed/didn't have a problem with Trinity, except Bizarro wasn't really the way he's written in RHATO, which was too bad. *But I can't complain about a storyline with Bruce caring about Jason.* And I hope we get to see everyone interact when they're not possessed.


That was the saving grace for me. And I agree, I hope we get to see everyone interact.

I only mention the helmet because of that demon mouth scene though, it was......Bizarre, to say the least.

----------


## RedBird

> http://fish-ghost.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> Demon in your head


Ah, more beautiful artwork by Fish-Ghost

----------


## Aahz

> Haven't read Trinity yet, but that's no surprise. Old man Jason in Batwoman is  nice though.


Don't know, Jason is imo not really a character that should stay behind and just watch the computers (or even join the Colony). And I really don't like Jason being again just support for an other Batfamily member.

It is also wired to have him in the old crippled Man role when he is actually much younger than Kate (and not much older than Tim).

I still prefer Futers End Jason as gritty alternate future version (btw. I'm curious if he will appear in Beyond and this Nightwing elseworld story).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah both Trinity and Batwoman were bad showings for Jason.

As Aahz points out, Jason on Batwoman is not Jason but rather a character with his name and an appearance that as is usual for Tynion is all about the show but it goes no deeper than the surface. Trinity on the other hand does exactly what I expected and treat the characters as glorified mooks for the Trinity to beat. Bizarro's character is entirely wrong and Jason and Artemis fall for Circe's schemes like chumps and without putting a real fight. No All Blades, no Bow of Ra, no nothing. And for all the complains about the so grandiose power of Circe, turns out the Outlaws get beaten by the freaking LOA. 

The worse part? That once again, they can't be arsed to do their research on Jason and pull the card that Jason _really_ wants to kill Bruce something that is not only against his current characterization but against the entire core of his character.

Granted, the stories can right their course on upcoming issues but I wouldn't hold my breath about seeing a significant change.

----------


## Caivu

> Yeah both Trinity and Batwoman were bad showings for Jason.
> 
> As Aahz points out, Jason on Batwoman is not Jason but rather a character with his name and an appearance that as is usual for Tynion is all about the show but it goes no deeper than the surface.


Why, specifically?




> Don't know, Jason is imo not really a character that should stay behind and just watch the computers (or even join the Colony). And I really don't like Jason being again just support for an other Batfamily member.


Same question. Why, specifically, does that bother you? He's clearly not in top shape here.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Why, specifically?
> 
> 
> 
> Same question. Why, specifically, does that bother you? He's clearly not in top shape here.


Because Jason is a man of action, not a detective. 

Despite all the time that has happened, and the things they've lived through together, he struggles to feel confortable with Bruce. The man he sees like a father so it doesn't mesh with him being all happy and willing to work with Kate and against Tim no less.

Jason always will lend a hand when needed but ultimately he wants to be his own man, not a sidekick again.

And then you come to the way he's depicted, as a bargain bin Nick Fury because that is what the "cool kids" like despite him being much younger than Kate. And no "hard" life doesn't account for making him look plus 60 years old when he shouldn't be older than 40 _at most_

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yeah both Trinity and Batwoman were bad showings for Jason.
> 
> As Aahz points out, Jason on Batwoman is not Jason but rather a character with his name and an appearance that as is usual for Tynion is all about the show but it goes no deeper than the surface. Trinity on the other hand does exactly what I expected and treat the characters as glorified mooks for the Trinity to beat. Bizarro's character is entirely wrong and Jason and Artemis fall for Circe's schemes like chumps and without putting a real fight. No All Blades, no Bow of Ra, no nothing. And for all the complains about the so grandiose power of Circe, turns out the Outlaws get beaten by the freaking LOA. 
> 
> The worse part? That once again, they can't be arsed to do their research on Jason and pull the card that Jason _really_ wants to kill Bruce something that is not only against his current characterization but against the entire core of his character.
> 
> Granted, the stories can right their course on upcoming issues but I wouldn't hold my breath about seeing a significant change.


I don't really agree that we're supposed to see it as Jason really wanting to kill Bruce. He's possessed - and it's the demon possessing him that is saying those words. Of course a demon will say things designed to hurt.

----------


## Aahz

> Same question. Why, specifically, does that bother you?


Among the Batfamily members, Jason is imo (together with Dick and Cass) one of the most straight up action guys. If you leave him behind playing Alfred he can't really do what he is good at.
I could get behind it if he was (Batman Beyond style) playing mentor for a younger hero, but for an older character that still can kick ass while he can't that's not great.
And with Jason disregard for rules and authorities him being part of military organisation is also a little wired.





> He's clearly not in top shape here.


Thats by choice of the writers.

----------


## Caivu

> Because Jason is a man of action, not a detective. 
> 
> Despite all the time that has happened, and the things they've lived through together, he struggles to feel confortable with Bruce. The man he sees like a father so it doesn't mesh with him being all happy and willing to work with Kate and against Tim no less.


I'm not getting how you think he was happy. Or how he's acting like a detective.




> Jason always will lend a hand *when needed* but ultimately he wants to be his own man, not a sidekick again.


I think this bad future certainly qualifies for that.




> And then you come to the way he's depicted, as a bargain bin Nick Fury because that is what the "cool kids" like despite him being much younger than Kate. And no "hard" life doesn't account for making him look plus 60 years old when he shouldn't be older than 40 _at most_


I agree that he looks too old, but so does everyone else, so... meh.




> Among the Batfamily members, Jason is imo (together with Dick and Cass) one of the most straight up action guys. If you leave him behind playing Alfred he can't really do what he is good at.
> I could get behind it if he was (Batman Beyond style) playing mentor for a younger hero, but for an older character that still can kick ass while he can't that's not great.
> And with Jason disregard for rules and authorities him being part of military organisation is also a little wired.


If those things are the case, I'm taking it as a sign that things are profoundly bad in this future, and have been for a while. Plus, he and Kate are clearly old friends, something that's not the case presently, and the two are meeting again in the next RHaTO arc. It might be the case that Future!Jason joined the Colony because he has nowhere else to turn and knows Kate well enough at that point to approach her for a position.




> Thats by choice of the writers.


Yes...? It explains why he can't be out in the field (and even then, that's not the actual reason, since the dialogue implies Kate normally wouldn't have any objection to that).

----------


## Aahz

> And then you come to the way he's depicted, as a bargain bin Nick Fury because that is what the "cool kids" like despite him being much younger than Kate. And no "hard" life doesn't account for making him look plus 60 years old when he shouldn't be older than 40 _at most_


Btw. I wondering how old they will make Tim in that story (he isn't really much younger than Jason) and if he will again (like in Futures End) get a growth spurt of if we will see a 5'6'' Batman  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

> Because Jason is a man of action, not a detective


I have the issue, but just from looking at the preview my quick responses would be: 

a) If he`s not the man in action he tends to be it`s due to his current condition. 

b) "He`s no detective". Well, _he trained to be one, among other things by Batman_. You notice you are underselling one aspect of his because you don`t have the other so far? Jason casually deals with information flowing, he knows how to investigate. Loedbell started this RATHO showcasing exactly that. 




> Despite all the time that has happened, and the things they've lived through together, he struggles to feel confortable with Bruce. The man he sees like a father so it doesn't mesh with him being all happy and willing to work with Kate and against Tim no less


a) He struggles, but he`s _able_ to. 

b) Weird. I feel he`s so self relient on his own code that if he felt Tim was on the wrong side or doing the wrong things - like it seems to be the case -  he would. Injustice 2 ends with him basically saying even Batman is part of the circle of bad blood the planet is stuck with. 




> Jason always will lend a hand when needed but ultimately he wants to be his own man, not a sidekick again


I need to read more to see if he`s lending a hand or being a sidedick. I think so far it works in the setting. Jason as someone who follows his code is hellbent to his own responsabilities (he`s like Bruce in that regard) and he especifically mentions guilt over not stopping Tim before and letting this happen. 

Bushido code bro. He`s seemingly in no shape in doing this alone and Kate and the Colony provide resources he likely does not have since Tim went fascist and took over (Dick and Damian aren`t mentioned whatsoever, maybe they`re dead too). Despite this, there`s a line of dialogue I`m reading (with a smirk no less!) about how he`s still a great shot even with the difficulties his present condition present. I get the feeling he`s not just going to sit out of it. 




> And then you come to the way he's depicted, as a bargain bin Nick Fury because that is what the "cool kids" like despite him being much younger than Kate. And no "hard" life doesn't account for making him look plus 60 years old when he shouldn't be older than 40 _at most_


I`m not crazy about the eyepatch but he doesn`t look as or over 60..

----------


## G-Potion

I don't think it's a big deal. There's an army to fight out there so why go solo instead of lending your support to another army? If Jason can play Alfred to Kate then it only makes him more versatile as a character. The fact that she says she needs him is good enough, no?

----------


## Alycat

I'm not seeing the problem with Jason in Batwoman. He looks like he's gone through some things and working with Kate for the greater good. Also Jason could totally be a detective if he wanted too, so what's this nonsense about only action.

Trinity wasn't even that bad.  I'm gonna pretend mouth helmet is now just a demon that possess Jason from time to time.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't really agree that we're supposed to see it as Jason really wanting to kill Bruce. He's possessed - and it's the demon possessing him that is saying those words. Of course a demon will say things designed to hurt


That`s because he thinks Jason would be able to guard himself against that sort of "evil". He`s done it before but it wasn`t by Circe so that`s always a grey area leading to other factors. With that out of the bag, why would it want to hurt Bruce?

The reason should be simply af. The Trinity are 3 fellas. Dark Trinity are 3 fellas. Each have a similar theme/role in each Trinity. There`s _no one else_ a demon possessed Red Hood would target given who is behind this, emotionally or physically.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Jason shouldn't even be in his 30's in that timeline much less 60's or even 40's. 5 years to his current age suggest maybe 29 tops, yikes that was definitely a hige slip up.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't really agree that we're supposed to see it as Jason really wanting to kill Bruce. He's possessed - and it's the demon possessing him that is saying those words. Of course a demon will say things designed to hurt.


You've seen the issue. They aren't giving the Outlaws any more characterization that he strictly needed nor playing any straight up twists with them.




> I'm not getting how you think he was happy. Or how he's acting like a detective.





> I have the issue, but just from looking at the preview my quick responses would be: 
> 
> a) If he`s not the man in action he tends to be it`s due to his current condition. 
> 
> b) "He`s no detective". Well, _he trained to be one, among other things by Batman_. You notice you are underselling one aspect of his because you don`t have the other so far? Jason casually deals with information flowing, he knows how to investigate. Loedbell started this RATHO showcasing exactly that.


He's having playful banter with Kate and the framing of the story makes clear they've been working together for a long time with Jason being Kate's mission control. 

I'm not underselling anything. Multiple times and under multiple writers Jason has been depicted as being the one who takes action rather than meticulously plan  ahead. With Lobdell even going so far to have him admit he rather leave the details of day to day live to Roy while he fights crime.




> I think this bad future certainly qualifies for that.


If the entire world being at risk of a massive alien invasion where Bruce is dead didn't got him to work with someone else, a military regime on Gotham doing it is risible.






> I agree that he looks too old, but so does everyone else, so... meh.


Kate and Montoya look really well for someone pushing their fifties and Jason despite being decades younger don't.





> If those things are the case, I'm taking it as a sign that things are profoundly bad in this future, and have been for a while. Plus, he and Kate are clearly old friends, something that's not the case presently, and the two are meeting again in the next RHaTO arc. It might be the case that Future!Jason joined the Colony because he has nowhere else to turn and knows Kate well enough at that point to approach her for a position.


Jason has always assumed he's on his own and he always looks to find on his own a way to survive. So again, him going to Kate is an stretch.





> Yes...? It explains why he can't be out in the field (and even then, that's not the actual reason, since the dialogue implies Kate normally wouldn't have any objection to that).


Exactly, the dialogue implies he's perfectly able to do stuff on his own. No need to be inside a ship playing mission control. Remember, this is the man that dug himself out of a grave and survived on the streets with brain damage.




> a) He struggles, but he`s _able_ to.


But ultimately he always decides to go on his own. 




> b) Weird. I feel he`s so self relient on his own code that if he felt Tim was on the wrong side or doing the wrong things - like it seems to be the case -  he would. Injustice 2 ends with him basically saying even Batman is part of the circle of bad blood the planet is stuck with.


And that why he is not one to remain following anyone's orders long. 




> I need to read more to see if he`s lending a hand or being a sidedick. I think so far it works in the setting. Jason as someone who follows his code is hellbent to his own responsabilities (he`s like Bruce in that regard) and he especifically mentions guilt over not stopping Tim before and letting this happen.
> 
> Bushido code bro. He`s seemingly in no shape in doing this alone and Kate and the Colony provide resources he likely does not have since Tim went fascist and took over (Dick and Damian aren`t mentioned whatsoever, maybe they`re dead too). Despite this, there`s a line of dialogue I`m reading (with a smirk no less!) about how he`s still a great shot even with the difficulties his present condition present. I get the feeling he`s not just going to sit out of it.


Feeling responsible for something is another reason it doesn't  fit he will be willing to sit on the sidelines. And as FE's showed, Jason without his friends becomes reckless and suicidal.




> I`m not crazy about the eyepatch but he doesn`t look as or over 60..


Compare him to Kate and Montoya.

----------


## G-Potion

Ok read Trinity. Doesn't hate it actually, mainly because Batman was portrayed as a good dad, but I guess it will depend on how Jason will be written next issue.

----------


## Caivu

> He's having playful banter with Kate and the framing of the story makes clear they've been working together for a long time with Jason being Kate's mission control. 
> 
> I'm not underselling anything. Multiple times and under multiple writers Jason has been depicted as being the one who takes action rather than meticulously plan  ahead. With Lobdell even going so far to have him admit he rather leave the details of day to day live to Roy while he fights crime.


Then he's clearly adapted to the role, likely due to his injury.




> If the entire world being at risk of a massive alien invasion where Bruce is dead didn't got him to work with someone else, a military regime on Gotham doing it is risible.


What does this refer to? Anyway, he helped save the world in B&RE, so there's one point against that.




> Kate and Montoya look really well for someone pushing their fifties and Jason despite being decades younger don't.


If it's only five years from the present (which I'm starting to doubt), Kate and Renee would be in their mid-thirties. Jason is not "decades younger" than them.




> Jason has always assumed he's on his own and he always looks to find on his own a way to survive.


Isn't this statement directly contradicted by RHaTO?




> Exactly, the dialogue implies he's perfectly able to do stuff on his own. No need to be inside a ship playing mission control. Remember, this is the man that dug himself out of a grave and survived on the streets with brain damage.


Except Kate says that this mission, or at least this part of it, is something she has to do herself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Then he's clearly adapted to the role, likely due to his injury.


And that is the problem, he's not someone that will let an injury get on his way.




> What does this refer to? Anyway, he helped save the world in B&RE, so there's one point against that.


Future's End and B&RE was also a an horribly written story so not a good example to use.

Even during SuperDoom Jason was on his own working with Bruce but ultimately independent of him.




> If it's only five years from the present (which I'm starting to doubt), Kate and Renee would be in their mid-thirties. Jason is not "decades younger" than them.


If that is just five years on the future, is even worse. We've seen Jason five years on the future already and he looks no different than in the present and that is in the midst of a world that has gone to hell, not just one city. If Kate and Reene are on the mid thirties, Jason would be on his mid twenties at most. A decade is still a decade.




> Isn't this statement directly contradicted by RHaTO?


No. 

Jason didn't tell Bruce about his plan to infiltrate the underworld, didn't ask Bruce for support to gather information, asked Crux (his own resource) for help instead. Even with Bizarro dying he didn't went to Bruce but rather to Ma Gunn. He will only rely on resources that himself has established.




> Except Kate says that this mission, or at least this part of it, is something she has to do herself.


I never said Jason has to take that mission himself but rather that he should be working on his own, following his own leads.

----------


## Aahz

> If it's only five years from the present (which I'm starting to doubt), Kate and Renee would be in their mid-thirties. Jason is not "decades younger" than them.


It doesn't say "five years from now" it says "five years in the reign of the Bat", which I would interpret as five years after Tim became Batman an took control over Gotham, so it could be much further in the future than 5 years. 
And Jason is currently between 18 and 20, Kate is based on the Rebirth issue at least in her late 20s maybe early 30s. So she is roughly a decade older than Jason.

----------


## Caivu

> And Jason is currently between 18 and 20, Kate is based on the Rebirth issue at least in her late 20s maybe early 30s. So she is roughly a decade older than Jason.


Right. Not "decades".

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm not underselling anything. Multiple times and under multiple writers Jason has been depicted as being the one who takes action rather than meticulously plan  ahead. With Lobdell even going so far to have him admit he rather leave the details of day to day live to Roy while he fights crime.


I`m aware he`s usually action oriented. That doesn`t mean he _wouldn`t if he needed to_. The first of RATHO Rebirth shows Jason`s degree in Criminology (always a reminder he was a smart cookie even as a kid). This is only the first issue of this arc but it`s clear that if he`s taken a more investigating role rather than enforcer is because of his present condition or due to what happened in the meantime/plot. 

Not sure how that comparison is fair. Leaving boring day to day details of business to Roy and bringing the Kingom Come to a regime. Well, if he can`t bother with one why would he bother with the other?




> If the entire world being at risk of a massive alien invasion where Bruce is dead didn't got him to work with someone else, a military regime on Gotham doing it is risible.


Injustice 2 is a singleplay game, tho and alien invasions aren`t as emotionally invested to him as the present situation? 

Jason has been written to work with others if it fits his agenda. That`s how RATHO is brought up. Right now there is only one area that is considered "free" in Gotham from what seems to be a totalitarian force using Brother Eye to keep everyone in check. 




> ason has always assumed he's on his own and he always looks to find on his own a way to survive. So again, him going to Kate is an stretch


What he assumes and what he has _experienced_ are part of his learning curve. 




> But ultimately he always decides to go on his own


And maybe he will here as well after the regime is brought down or as a last attack. 

He decides on his own what he`s game to do and I don`t see Kate barking orders at him like a subordinate and him following her lap around. Not really sure both are unreconciable as it is. 




> Feeling responsible for something is another reason it doesn't  fit he will be willing to sit on the sidelines. And as FE's showed, Jason without his friends becomes reckless and suicidal.


We don`t know what he did in the meantime everything happened. His condition alone indicates he didn`t just sat doing Alfred chores and his dialogue here equally indicates he`s not going to. 

As far as friends, he`s not alone. What if he sees Kate in that mold after what they went throught? What if he still lingers a bond to Tim and that`s why he hasn`t stop him before? What if his condition is because he tried going after Tim to reason with him and things went Order66?

----------


## Aioros22

Since I know some will point it out I want to give the example found in the book, Kate does _ask him_ to watch over her, since she goes alone in the zone to talk to Renne (this isn`t unique on its own, Jason will compromise given the trust he has with the person, like Bruce) but right in the beginning, Jason himself mentions how he`s given warning shots to get Tim out of wherever he`s hiding and some *"not so warning shots*". 

He didn`t ask Kate if he could or not, he just did. Obviously I want him to go where the action is, facing Tim even or similarly a vital mission to bring the regime down but so far it isn`t conclusive to me whether I think this is solid or not. I need a second issue.

----------


## Aahz

It is not horrible, but Jason doing Nick Fury Cosplay and playing mission control for Batwoman, is nothing that gets me excited and I would have been totally OK if they had used an other character instead.

----------


## Aioros22

Sure enough, if that`s what the whole of his role surmises to then there`s nothing exciting to experience from that end. 

I`m kind of fairly certain it won`t.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Somebody was tirggered by the recent Trinity issue.

----------


## Assam

dick and jay.jpg

I couldn't _not_ share this. Every piece this artist does with the Wayne kids is gold.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> dick and jay.jpg
> 
> I couldn't _not_ share this. Every piece this artist does with the Wayne kids is gold.


I love that piece and I agree about the artist.

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## Aahz

> Sure enough, if that`s what the whole of his role surmises to then there`s nothing exciting to experience from that end. 
> 
> I`m kind of fairly certain it won`t.


Don't know to me it looks like he is just used again, to prop up another character, like almost every time he appears in a Batoffice title.

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## G-Potion

Don't think it's the same as Eternal or War though. He plays mission control but it implies enough in the dialog that he does get to make his own choice, and that he is needed by Kate. There's no shame in playing support, and he wasn't portrayed as dumber than Tim nor weaker than Damian. Also, how long has it been since a writer other than Lobdell explicitly spells out that Jason is perceptive?

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## G-Potion

http://sinful-contradictions.tumblr.com/

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## Aioros22

Read Trinity last night but after discussing Batwoman`s issue I kind of let it for today, I`ll share my opinions on the first issue of the current arc. 

*Like*: 

. It`s especifically made appearant that the magic at hand is above even what the "magical Trinity" is used to deal with. Jason Blood, the Demon, couldn`t control it, Boston Brand, Deadman couldn`t enter Jason`s body and possess it and it swallows both him and Zatanna. I`ll need to pick it up again but I think even Zatanna tries her reverse spell before she is swallowed, to no avail. 

. The magic at hand is- kind of as I hoped and suspected - a sort of mix between the arcane of the Lazarus Pit and the Pandora`s Box. Each of the Outlaws`s demons are an open box for more demons. This is potentially over the top as it should.

. Either Superman or Wonder Woman have troubles holding Jason to the table. 

. They weren`t defeated by the LOA. They were attacked by a joint of demons and LOA as distraction maneuver for Ras to steal their blood and have the Pandora`s Pit catch them and swallow them (which then goes to the Prelude scene of them already in control of Ras and Circe). 

. While it was a trap, it`s mentioned Jason tracked evidence Ras left around and went after them. I enjoyed that obviously they didn`t even care about listening to wathever they wanted to propose, they flat out just say no off the bat. 

. Batman being an overprotecting dad to Jason " Be careful, Boston..". Only one son my arse. 


*What I dislike*:

. Batman blockin the axe from Artemis and kicking her off him. Yeah yeah, it`s goddam Batman versus Captain Marvel all over again. Not that she gets hurt or down but it is still selling Artemis short. Speaking of short, she should easily tower over the guy too. I was looking forward for that. 

. Falling for a trap. Well, happens to the best, it`s done in a way that contextualizes that unless you`ve a spider-sense you wouldn`t know it before you enter but that line from Bizarro that reads "too many of them"...dude, Ice breath them. Speed them. Punch the floor. 

I can only imagine him being childlike gives the convinient excuse to other writers but after last RATHO that better be gone. 

. Talking about strong, the one worst scene is Ras throwing daggers to steal blood from them. Hood will bleed from a cut if hit, sure, but since when would Bizrro or even Artemis? Wouldn`t it have been better if Hood was the one cut and turned to a demon first and then I don`t know, infected the other two as soon they would try to save him?

*On the fence about*:

. All in all, Jason doesn`t look as bad. Ras is someone who can walk rounds on Batman in terms of planning but Artemis and Bizarro were the big sacrifices. Most of the time, they didn`t look strong as they should. Why wasn`t Diana the one defending herself from Artemis? No idea, that would make sense, she`s strong enough for that (Batman only had his proverbial gloves and didn`t had laverage advantage). Bizarro mostly just plays nerf (I`ll just swing arms, thank you) which conveniently makes him vulnerable to the initial attack but later punches Superman into Wonder Woman and the collision frees Hood. Little consistancy with those two there. 

. This one is the biggie, Jason`s line saying he gave himself to the possession willingly to kill Batman. Obviously much it`s a plot twist and the demon inside talking but it hurt him saying it, bro. I`m aware that`s the point, tho  :Wink:

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## Aioros22

As far as the Batwoman issue, I didn`t felt it was obnoxious off character. So far we have very little to set a timeline for this future to know what happened to him, what got him into his current condition and situation with this alliance, if he`s a part of the Colony or not and so many others questions. I want to know more before making an objectve opinion.

Him playing Oracle to Kate is not the most exciting prospect but we don`t know if it was just this one mission or is his usual role, we can tell if she does go alone, he`s the one person she trusts with having eyes on her. On the other hand I like that he still thinks and responds as a Red Hood, that Kate needs him, that he gives warning shots and _other kind_ of shots because he`s Jason freaking Todd and that he`s someone she naturally trusts with that because he`s a pro. 

I also don`t mind a start of an arc where Jason`s perception is played out more than his tete a tete action. We`ll hopefully get that later. 

All I`m saying is, if you make a story of him being Oracle you better make him the most badass Oracle *ever.*

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## Alycat

Aioros22, you basically put what I felt about the issues but in much better words  :Smile: 

Also guys it's okay for people to just be support characters and used for plot in other books if it's not done horribly. It's actually really good some times and just because it's not 100% the way it is in his book doesn't make it bad.

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## Aioros22

> Aioros22, you basically put what I felt about the issues but in much better words


That`s because I edit like Hell  :Wink: 




> Also guys it's okay for people to just be support characters and used for plot in other books if it's not done horribly. It's actually really good some times and just because it's not 100% the way it is in his book doesn't make it bad.


i can see where it comes from. As I myself also mention, an appearance from Jason on another book just to play Oracle doesn`t scream excitment. This also comes down to most feeling he played support in other crossovers (altho that perception will vary between fans). 

On the other hand, to me, if it`s well written and handled it doesn`t make it bad on principle alone.

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## G-Potion

> Why wasn`t Diana the one defending herself from Artemis?


It is selling Artemis short. But on the other hand, since Diana was busy holding the lasso so she called for support, Bruce would rather face Mistress than let Jason get away, you get one more Awesome Dad moment. Batman is like "*HOLD THE LASSO*" and "The Red Hood *DOESN'T* get free." Some bold and cap letters but enough that you get the idea of how frantic he is about his son.

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## Aioros22

Yeah, true, Batman wouldn`t be be able to touch the lasso to begin with, I misplaced that detail. 

A better fit scene then would Batman simply dodge and attack Artemis with some smoke screen or something alike. That wouldn`t sell anyone short and it would keep the point of the whole scene.

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## Alycat

My biggest problem is that they need to be more consistent with Bizzaro's speech. The editor should've caught that.

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## Aioros22

That and the blades part are the biggest turn off of the issue. 

They should have made clear those blades were mystical in nature too.

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## Aahz

> That and the blades part are the biggest turn off of the issue. 
> 
> They should have made clear those blades were mystical in nature too.


But that Ras can hit them that easily is also a little strange.

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## Aahz

> Don't think it's the same as Eternal or War though. He plays mission control but it implies enough in the dialog that he does get to make his own choice, and that he is needed by Kate. There's no shame in playing support, and he wasn't portrayed as dumber than Tim nor weaker than Damian. Also, how long has it been since a writer other than Lobdell explicitly spells out that Jason is perceptive?


Eternal and War are really a low bar. But the Batwoman appearance is really quite "meh", and I really think that it is time that Jason gets more than  "meh" in the Bat-titles. Appearances like don't bring anything to his character. 
Why can't he get something cool like for example his Supergirl guest appearances.

And they have really enough Button Pusher characters in the Batfamily, there is really no need to put Jason in that role.

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## Godlike13

There is a real easy solution so that Jason gets more than "meh" in the Bat-titles but i don't think you guys would like it. Say what you what about before Lobdell started redeeming him, but when he would pop up in a bat title he wasn't "meh". Bat shit crazy sometimes, but not "meh".

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## Aioros22

Pointing Loedbell`s take for how meh Eternal (as the most mentioned example) was, strikes me as dramatic for dramas sake. Wasn`t Dick`s participation in the second Eternal a gigantic meh for you too? Or how about the Nigthwing event I can`t even recall what the actual title was? Isn`t one of the major criticisms of the current batch of bat writers exactly the lack of willingness to properly project other characters than Batman?

What you`re saying is something is no secret, you atribute it to Jason not being a villain or bat shit cray when the simple answer is that when some stories feel shit they`re shit because writers only care to milk quick cash. The big truth fans don`t like to hear is that not every writer cares as much as you do. Eternal was made to milk an especific format using popular characters and they knew that alone would make the buck.

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## Aioros22

Oh yeah, I also forgot how better written Nigthwing and Damian were used in I Am Bane. Truly un-meh.

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## Alycat

Considering how meh Eternal was even with good writers, I'm putting the blame on editorial for pushing certain characters and who's only consistent mantra seems to be Batman should look good and oh yeah I guess the rest of those guys exist too.

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## JasonTodd428

> There is a real easy solution so that Jason gets more than "meh" in the Bat-titles but i don't think you guys would like it. Say what you what about before Lobdell started redeeming him, but when he would pop up in a bat title he wasn't "meh". Bat shit crazy sometimes, but not "meh".


Actually he was quite "meh" and very one note back then IMHO so, no I don't believe that is a good solution for the problem at all. In fact I'd say it would be just as bad then what happens with him now. The problem here isn't his current characterization. It's the shitty stories he's been involved with in the Bat office and the fact that the writers there can't seem to figure out what to do with a Jason Todd who isn't "bat shit crazy". Heck, they barely knew what to do with him when he was since they never really bothered to follow through on that particular angle when they should have. Personally, I'd rather he simply didn't make appearances in Bat books at all to that. Bad appearances IMO do the character no favors.

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## Godlike13

Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more? All I was saying is that what initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.

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## Aahz

> Pointing Loedbell`s take for how meh Eternal (as the most mentioned example) was, strikes me as dramatic for dramas sake. Wasn`t Dick`s participation in the second Eternal a gigantic meh for you too?


He had at least some cool moments through out the series and took down mother in the end, after she one shotted all the other Robins. It wasn't that great but still way better than what Jason got.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more? All I was saying is that what initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.


Redeemed Jason is the Batman character that travels all over the world helping people with no regards for rules or whatever personal consequences would bring on him as result. That is something that was literally shown by the Who's Artemis? arc. As for what writers should be doing?

Simple, writing him as an actual character and not one that is just there to fill space. He can work with the family without the need to be glued to the hip of them. Jason is a leader, not a follower.

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## JasonTodd428

> Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless he wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more. What initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.


Honestly everything about the 2nd Eternal was bad and I don't think anyone came out of that looking particularly well.

A one note character isn't really one that is interesting even if the premise behind them is though and that's what Pre-FP Jason ended up being. Do you honestly believe that if Jason were to revert to his Pre-FL self tomorrow that the Bat office would suddenly know exactly what to do with him? I don't believe that for a second. They'd be just as lost about what to do with him in those circumstance as they have always been. It would be the same thing as we have now only with a bit more blood and action involved.

Like I said the problem isn't with how the character is now its with the way writers elect to handle him. They seem to be wanting to treat him with kid gloves for the moment because they are either afraid to commit to an honest attempt at using him or they are afraid that if they should do so then fans will jump all over them if "the failure Robin" looks as competent or better at something as the other "Good Robins".

As for what writers can do with him in Bat events? 

They could do actual research on the character, find out his skill set and how he works in his own book before using him in their stories. 

They could treat him like an actual, fully fleshed out character instead of one dimensional window dressing. 

They could stop trying to make him a one note character whose only use is as the muscle or the comic relief.

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## TheCape

I thinkt that Jason works redeemed just fine, but i don't think that he should go back with the Batfamily, he is a man with his own code that clash with Bruce's so went to his own way in the world. Hell, i think  that he work better working with more morally grey people in general.




> Honestly everything about the 2nd Eternal was bad and I don't think anyone came out of that looking particularly well.


I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there

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## G-Potion

That kind of mindset regarding character role/purpose is exactly what churned out mediocrity like both Eternals. Everyone has to fit a role instead of letting the characters lead the story course. Whether Jason is an antagonist or a hero, his skillset remains there and a smart writer would write accordingly.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

The problem is not Jason working with Bruce or any other member of the Batfamily. The problem is that other than Lobdell, Pak and maybe Higgins, they still write Jason as a sidekick, as completely supporting character. Always following the lead of someone else, not really having any voice on his own or a decent showing as fighter, strategist or cunning. 

As you point out, Jason is his own man and should be treated as such on crossovers.

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## G-Potion

> I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there


Same. For all the spotlight that he has over the other robins in both War and Eternal, he came out less likable.

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## JasonTodd428

> I thinkt that Jason works redeemed just fine, but i don't think that he should go back with the Batfamily, he is a man with his own code that clash with Bruce's so went to his own way in the world. Hell, i think  that he work better working with more morally grey people in general.


I agree but with this caveat. I do think he should be willing and ready to help the Bats out in cases of extreme need or in cases where he is the only one capable of doing what is needed. Outside of those times though I think the character works better away from Gotham and with his own team. I don't think that he needs to be attached at the hip to the Bats.




> I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there


Yeah, that was a huge turn off for me as well.

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## TheCape

> Yeah, that was a huge turn off for me as well.


To be honest i'm not fond of Dick since Grayson, Eternal just showed part of those problems in a more obvious way.

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## Darkspellmaster

I always saw Jason as more of a field leader then anything else. A good example, Roy from the YJ series. He can be his own man, but also work with others, only they have to be willing to bend the rules or break them depending on situations.

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## EMarie

> As for what writers can do with him in Bat events? 
> 
> They could do actual research on the character, find out his skill set and how he works in his own book before using him in their stories. 
> 
> They could treat him like an actual, fully fleshed out character instead of one dimensional window dressing. 
> 
> They could stop trying to make him a one note character whose only use is as the muscle or the comic relief.


Agreed. It frustrates me greatly when writers don't bother to research the characters their writing. You can tell in the writing and editorial doesn't bother to correct it. I really respect writers that make the effort whether it's reading up on them or asking their solo writer about it. I used to be thrilled by the idea of Jason showing up in bat event or other books. Now I look at the writers and sometimes wait to hear how Jason was written before getting the book.

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## Alycat

> To be honest i'm not fond of Dick since Grayson, Eternal just showed part of those problems in a more obvious way.


This is a Jason thread of course, but I'm curious about what problems you mean about Dick.

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## TheCape

> This is a Jason thread of course, but I'm curious about what problems you mean about Dick.


I know that is an unnpopular opinion here, but my favorite Dick Grayson came from what Wolfman, Dixon did with him and i think that Tomasi and Morrison did a very good when they continued with that vision in their respective works with the characther (Winnick too, at least in the "Long Shadows" arc), Higgins series was mediocre in many aspects, but even him continued with that template. Grayson has kind of started this idea that Dick is more impulsive and a bit of a womanizer, wich also led to that dumb line speaked by Jason of "Dick was never much of a detective" in the second Eternal series, it feel like FanonDick suddenly became canon for me.
Grayson is not a horrible series by any means, the world building around Spyral is interesting, Helena and Tiger are pretty fun characthers  and there some moments for Richard in that series that are pretty good (his conversations with Bruce are the best part of the run). but i don't like what it came out of it, the new series has improved a bit, but is not quite there yet.

Sorry for the tangent, i promise that i would speak more about Jason next time, i really had to give my opinion of the guy.

----------


## Alycat

I wish Dick could be as free from the batfamily( like he used to) as much as Jason gets to be. Which is the opposite of what I think Tim and Damian should be. That said I also have no problem with Jason being in Gotham and just not around Batman. Kinda like Babs is.




> I know that is an unnpopular opinion here, but my favorite Dick Grayson came from what Wolfman, Dixon did with him and i think that Tomasi and Morrison did a very good when they continued with that vision in their respective works with the characther (Winnick too, at least in the "Long Shadows" arc), Higgins series was mediocre in many aspect, but even him continued with that template. Grayson has kind of started this idead that Dick is more impulsive and a bit of a womanizer, wich also led to that dumb like speaked by Jason of "Dick was never much of a detective" in the second Eternal series, it feel like FanonDick suddenly became canon for me.
> Grayson is not a horrible series by any means, the world building around Spyral is interesting, Helena and Tiger are pretty fun characther  and there some moments for Richard in that series that are pretty good (his conversations with Bruce are the best part of the series). but i don't like what it came out of it, the new series has improved a bit, but is not quite there yet.
> 
> Sorry for the tangents, i promise that i would speak more about Jason next time, i really had to give my opinion of the guy.


No need to be sorry! I was just curious and you explained your point well. Nothing wrong with having a preference.

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## Aioros22

> He had at least some cool moments through out the series and took down mother in the end, after she one shotted all the other Robins. It wasn't that great but still way better than what Jason got.


So did Jason. Dick was basically bitched by Cass whereas Jay had the advantage on her twice in a row. If you ask me which I prefer I think you know. 

Nobody is going to remember that Z rated villain in the coming years.

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## Assam

> Nobody is going to remember that Z rated villain in the coming years.


Truth be told, I was genuinely surprised Tynion directly mentioned Mother in 'Tec, even showing her. I know he's under the impression that people really liked BR:E but still.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more? All I was saying is that what initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.


Nigthwing played second fiddle to Harper Row and Cass like everybody else. 

I respect your opinion but here`s the crux of the matter. You know how I know that the issue isn`t just Jason working with them or just being one of the guys now? Because Eternal2 characterization of him hardly resembles the one he was found in his book and that book had crossovers with other characters too, namely Tim Drake and GordonBats. The only thing that was in synch was him fighting Cass exactly because it references aspects of his training in his books as well a non jockey banter. 

So, what should you do? Look at his development (which as proven by writers like Loedbell, Winnick, Tomasi and Pak obviously work) and don`t just write him as the jock to stand out. His development is full of personal drama, maturity growth, learning curves and physicological terror (Rebirth). He`s the one with the most developded pshyche, save Batman and Nigthwing. 

Everything he`s done including shooting JD and breaking apart of Roy are things nobody else would do.

It`s not really that complicated. Of all of them, Jason is the only one Bruce will give leeway to do the things he does because he`s the only one, over anyone else, that he will trust with that agenda. The only one. He will come down on Damian, on tim, on Dick for the same things but Jason is a different matter. Reboot or no reboot, Jason was shaped by forces the others can`t understand.

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## Aioros22

> Truth be told, I was genuinely surprised Tynion directly mentioned Mother in 'Tec, even showing her. I know he's under the impression that people really liked BR:E but still.


He would, he had a hand in creating her. 

Guaranteed that if she ever shows up under other writers it`s gonna be as a forgotten villain. She`s terribly bland in every aspect.

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## Aahz

> So did Jason. Dick was basically bitched by Cass whereas Jay had the advantage on her twice in a row. If you ask me which I prefer I think you know.


But that one good sceene but afterwards in went completely downwards.

Dick had definatally more he beat for example Mother, David Cain and Azrael and saved saved Bruce live while Jason was left behind in the Batcave to work on his bike.

But I really think we had this discussion before.

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## Aahz

> There is a real easy solution so that Jason gets more than "meh" in the Bat-titles but i don't think you guys would like it. Say what you what about before Lobdell started redeeming him, but when he would pop up in a bat title he wasn't "meh". Bat shit crazy sometimes, but not "meh".


If you referring to BFC and Morrisons run that wasn't 'meh' that was just awful. The pre countdown version was great but was actually already developing in the direction we have now.

And B&RE imo really case were Jason could have been easily written much more capable without changing the plot much. Just a few examples how:
- they could have just let out all the negative comments about Jason by the other characters
- he could have teamed up with Dick to save Bruce while Tim was doing mission control
- he could have gotten at least one good fight against a strong opponent during the Team Up with Tim (against Bane, Azrael or someone else)
- he and Tim should have been the ones that have been the ones, who stopped mothers plan (while Dick was attacking her Hide out) and not Midnighter and Cullen Row

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## Godlike13

> If you referring to BFC and Morrisons run that wasn't 'meh' that was just awful. The pre countdown version was great but was actually already developing in the direction we have now.
> 
> And B&RE imo really case were Jason could have been easily written much more capable without changing the plot much. Just a few examples how:
> - they could have just let out all the negative comments about Jason by the other characters
> - he could have teamed up with Dick to save Bruce while Tim was doing mission control
> - he could have gotten at least one good fight against a strong opponent during the Team Up with Tim (against Bane, Azrael or someone else)
> - he and Tim should have been the ones that have been the ones, who stopped mothers plan (while Dick was attacking her Hide out) and not Midnighter and Cullen Row


Im talking about UtRH, BFC, and Morrison's that whole period. When he was brought back he was controversial, he got people talking, and when ever he popped up he and what he was doing was impossible to ignore. We can't say that about Jason now and what he's currently doing. So ok, maybe he doesn't have to go back to killing bad guys (even though i think its inevitable that he will), they need to come up with something that will get people to take note of him and what he's doing so that when he does pop up somewhere he can't just fade into the background. I honestly don't know what his purpose is anymore.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Im talking about UtRH, BFC, and Morrison's that whole period. When he was brought back he was controversial,* he got people talking, and when ever he popped up he and what he was doing was impossible to ignore. We can't say that about Jason now and what he's currently doing.* So ok, maybe he doesn't have to go back to killing bad guys (even though i think its enviable that he will), they need to come up with something will get people to take note of him and what he's doing so that when he does pop up somewhere he can't just fade into the background.


You clearly haven't looked around, there's always a lot of discussion when Jason shows up anywhere regardless the quality of his appearances and RHATO is currently one of the most well received titles by both the audience and the critics.

To be blunt, your arguments read less as proper arguments and more as personal bias.

----------


## Savatewolf

I wish I knew how to link stuff on mobile but this whole conversation reminds me a couple of tweets tynion posted about the batfamily hierarchy.

Basically what he said was that Bruce and Kate are number 1 and 2 for the 'Tec team

And for the robins and Barbara, they tend to do their own thing and do what they think is best unless during a dire emergency in which case they will refer to Dick Grayson as he has the most experience, but will still disobey if they don't agree with the order.

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## TheCape

> And for the robins and Barbara, they tend to do their own thing and do what they think is best unless during a dire emergency in which case they will refer to Dick Grayson as he has the most experience, but will still disobey if they don't agree with the order.


If you ask me Dick is the consigliere.

----------


## Alycat

> Truth be told, I was genuinely surprised Tynion directly mentioned Mother in 'Tec, even showing her. I know he's under the impression that people really liked BR:E but still.


How could he possibly still be under that impression? Does he also think people like his RHaTO run?

Also I'll take Kate as #2 for the Tec team but for them only and it still bothers me if  Tim is there. #2 overall should be  Dick not Kate though.

----------


## Godlike13

> You clearly haven't looked around, there's always a lot of discussion when Jason shows up anywhere regardless the quality of his appearances and RHATO is currently one of the most well received titles by both the audience and the critics.
> 
> To be blunt, your arguments read less as proper arguments and more as personal bias.


And yet we didn't hear a peep about him or this well received title come con time, and the series continues to struggle to stay in the top 100. And im not saying the book's quality is bad. Its readers seem quite happy with its quality.

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## Aahz

> And yet we didn't hear a peep about him or this well received title come con time, and the series continues to struggle to stay in the top 100. And im not saying the book's quality is bad. Its readers seem quite happy with its quality.


The lowest it was sofar was 101.

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## JasonTodd428

> Im talking about UtRH, BFC, and Morrison's that whole period. When he was brought back he was controversial, he got people talking, and when ever he popped up he and what he was doing was impossible to ignore. We can't say that about Jason now and what he's currently doing. So ok, maybe he doesn't have to go back to killing bad guys (even though i think its enviable that he will), they need to come up with something that will get people to take note of him and what he's doing so that when he does pop up somewhere he can't just fade into the background. I honestly don't know what his purpose is anymore.


So you're basically saying that he was at his most interesting when he was a villain because he caused a stir with fans? I can understand that but frankly as time went on and as writers kept covering the EXACT SAME GROUND with every time he showed up it became a stale direction for him. You say that his appearances got people to talk about him but frankly his character's stagnation was so bad that the last few times he randomly showed up in a book I cringed at the announcement because I knew exactly how they were going to handle him for the upteenth time. (Sort of like now when he shows up in Bat centric events or crossovers.) Again it has nothing to do with the character and everything to do with the writers who are writing him. They could do something interesting that would get people to take note of him as well as something that would prevent him from fading into the background but they just don't bother to do so. They seemingly have no interest in drawing people's attention to him in the first place for whatever their reason and until they do we'll continue to see him used as wallpaper in events.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *And yet we didn't hear a peep about him or this well received title come con time*, and the series continues to struggle to stay in the top 100. And im not saying the book's quality is bad. Its readers seem quite happy with its quality.


Something that _even Bleeding Cool_ called out Editorial on it. But that is besides the point since you never specified you meant talk from editorial (effectively moving the goalposts) because as pointed out, the fans and the critics talk plenty of the series.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And yet we didn't hear a peep about him or this well received title come con time, and the series continues to struggle to stay in the top 100. And im not saying the book's quality is bad. Its readers seem quite happy with its quality.


That is a problem of promotion and again has nothing to do with the current direction of the series, which you claim is the problem here. Like Dark says critics and fans talk about the series plenty. Did you know that it has a critical score on Comicbookroundup of 8.2 and that it beats the critical scores of all the other side Bat titles on that site. (The only title with a side Bat character it doesn't beat is Super Sons if I'm remembering correctly.)

----------


## TheCape

Speaking of redemption, what do you guys think about Morrison's Jason in the second volume of Batman Inc.

----------


## Aioros22

> And yet we didn't hear a peep about him or this well received title come con time, and the series continues to struggle to stay in the top 100. And im not saying the book's quality is bad. Its readers seem quite happy with its quality.


The Comic Con? 

You actually had the audience asking about him despite lack of promotion and it`s not because he isn`t showing up anywhere since he obviously is

----------


## Aioros22

> Speaking of redemption, what do you guys think about Morrison's Jason in the second volume of Batman Inc.


I like it. Loedbell probably added it to RATHO`s timeline because he had to and it`s incredibly tight but I don`t care much. It`s another example on how that role wouldn`t be done by anyone else save him. 

When fans ask what is his role in the family anymore, that is it. Has anyone ever read or seen the Green Hornet? There`s a similar pulp theme with Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


Nice. (10 characters)

----------


## Aioros22

The inquiry nerd eye will notice one of the helmets..





Is powerfully over.9,000

----------


## Savatewolf

> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


Lol I love the helmet with the scouter

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Lol I love the helmet with the scouter


I'm particularly fond of the one with the swiss army knife the MacGyver fan that I am.

Biz's new job is as the tech guy for the Outlaws.  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Also: hover board so Jason can go back to the future and a swiss knife to build a bomb just in time for lunch.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Also: hover board so Jason can go back to the future and a swiss knife to build a bomb just in time for lunch.


Lots of easter eggs in that cover.

----------


## Aioros22

Damn you JT, you beat me to it. 

And is that helmet suppose to look like Vader`s with the breathing device?

----------


## Godlike13

> That is a problem of promotion and again has nothing to do with the current direction of the series, which you claim is the problem here. Like Dark says critics and fans talk about the series plenty. Did you know that it has a critical score on Comicbookroundup of 8.2 and that it beats the critical scores of all the other side Bat titles on that site. (The only title with a side Bat character it doesn't beat is Super Sons if I'm remembering correctly.)


Based on how many reviews though. Im willing to bet it has less total reviews then most of the other Bat titles. Not that I'm questioning the integrity of its rating or its quality, that's not my point.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Based on how many reviews though. I willing to bet it has less total reviews then most of the other Bat titles. Not that I'm questioning the integrity of its rating or its quality, that's not my point.


You would lose that bet. And that is only counting the reviews for the latest issues since thanks to bi monthly or second wave series there's a noticeable difference of total issues among the titles

RHATO's issue 13 has 16 reviews
Batwoman issue 6 has 10 reviews
Batgirl 13 has 12
Batgirl & the BOP 8
Nightwing 27 has 10
Fricking Harley Quinn has 12

http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...outlaws-(2016)
http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...atwoman-(2017)
http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...-birds-of-prey
http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...batgirl-(2016)
http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-bo...ghtwing-(2016)

----------


## Alycat

Alright I want both of the covers now. Also a mini  hover board Jason action figure.

----------


## EMarie

> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


I haven't cared for the Guilliam covers for this series but I love this one. I especially love the fact he has models for his inventions and went to the effort of putting a Red Hood action figure on one. Dr. Bizarro and the dynamic changes between the trio should be great.

----------


## Caivu

> Based on how many reviews though. Im willing to bet it has less total reviews then most of the other Bat titles.


I checked, and that does indeed seem to be the case.

----------


## Godlike13

> You would lose that bet. And that is only counting the reviews for the latest issues since thanks to bi monthly or second wave series there's a noticeable difference of total issues among the titles
> 
> RHATO's issue 13 has 16 reviews
> Batwoman issue 6 has 10 reviews
> Batgirl 13 has 12
> Batgirl & the BOP 8
> Nightwing 27 has 10
> Fricking Harley Quinn has 12
> 
> ...


Except your links actually show that that is indeed the case. The only series there that has less total reviews is BoP and Batwoman, and Batwoman has half the number of issues but already more then half the total of reviews. And even if you double RHatO total reviews is still falls noticably short of the bimonthly.

----------


## Alycat

Isn't comparing reviews silly when one or two series and bimonthly are the others just monthly.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Damn you JT, you beat me to it. 
> 
> And is that helmet suppose to look like Vader`s with the breathing device?


 :Stick Out Tongue:  It does look a bit Vader-like. Also I second Alycat about wanting an actual mini hoverboard Jason figure.

----------


## G-Potion

> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


New and improved Red Hood incoming?  :Cool:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Based on how many reviews though. Im willing to bet it has less total reviews then most of the other Bat titles. Not that I'm questioning the integrity of its rating or its quality, that's not my point.


Hey, all I'm saying is that critical reception of the book is better overall then most of the other Bat titles. Most of the critics who are reviewing it seem to be happy with it on the whole whereas it seems most critics reviewing the other titles are not as pleased with them. You could argue that the lower scores on say Nightwing are the result of that book having a wider review pool and that likely is a factor but if most of the critics reviewing it are unhappy with it a !of of the time does it really matter how many people are reviewing it or how many issues are out?

----------


## G-Potion

> It does look a bit Vader-like. Also I second Alycat about wanting an actual mini hoverboard Jason figure.


I bet Damian will want it as well.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alycat

> Hey, all I'm saying is that critical reception of the book is better overall then most of the other Bat titles. Most of the critics who are reviewing it seem to be happy with it on the whole whereas it seems most critics reviewing the other titles are not as pleased with them. You could argue that the lower scores on say Nightwing are the result of that book having a wider review pool and that likely is a factor but if most of the critics reviewing it are unhappy with it a !of of the time does it really matter how many people are reviewing it or how many issues are out?


That could be an issue. Although if I may offer my opinion: I also think the Nightwing fandom is divided over what they want ( Nistaligia for example) in the book and the way the arcs work means some aren't pleased one way or the other. For example, I read some recently that pooed Grayson and don't like when those arcs come into focus. I feel the same way about Bludhaven no matter how well written it is. I don't think Outlaws has the same problem and that also allows for a more consistent quality.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That could be an issue. Although if I may offer my opinion: I also think the Nightwing fandom is divided over what they want ( Nistaligia for example) in the book and the way the arcs work means some aren't pleased one way or the other. For example, I read some recently that pooed Grayson and don't like when those arcs come into focus. I feel the same way about Bludhaven no matter how well written it is. I don't think Outlaws has the same problem and that also allows for a more consistent quality.


I agree. Seeley is trying to please both groups with this back and forth set up and I'm not really sure its been entirely successful. To me it makes for a very uneven run with half of it being entirely uninteresting to me. I never cared for Bludhaven to begin with so those are the weaker arcs to me even though they are better written then the standard Nightwing book is. I also don't really care for all the heavy handed nostalgia. I felt that particular element was handled more deftly in Grayson. 

By comparison in RHATO Lobdell is handling the nostalgia deftly among many other things that he is doing right. The book isn't trying to be all things to all people and is instead trying to be its own thing. I think that's one of the reasons its so much more focused and an overall more solid book.

----------


## dietrich

> I have an opinion that will be controversial especially on this thread
>  I desperately hope red hood is not brought into other media, in my opinion he is over exposed now. I like him in the comics but everywhere else he is portrayed as the 'cool,' 'rebel' robin which gets old fast and leads to people such as many youtubers loving him. IN reality he draws attention away from others like Tim who gets dumped as dork robin nowadays a lot which he shouldn't- read the robin series. I'm bored of the amount of people who a clamouring for an under the red hood movie at this point after the last few years.
> 
> Once again I want to say I like him in the comics as he makes sense there and is written better due to character development.
> 
> At first this could seem like i'm a butthurt Tim fan due to my profile but trust me I'm not, I just want the other robins to be addressed and not ignored like in the DCNAU. As the same also goes for Steph and Cass. 
> 
> Cowers in fear from Todd fans


Jason's not really over exposed. You confuse popularity and fan demand with over exposure.

----------


## adrikito

> You would lose that bet. And that is only counting the reviews for the latest issues since thanks to bi monthly or second wave series there's a noticeable difference of total issues among the titles
> 
> RHATO's issue 13 has 16 reviews
> Batwoman issue 6 has 10 reviews
> Batgirl 13 has 12
> Batgirl & the BOP 8
> Nightwing 27 has 10
> Fricking Harley Quinn has 12
> 
> ...


Red Hood and Outlaws Rating is the best.. EXCELLENT.




> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


THIS IS FUNNY.. HAHA,One Dragon Ball scouter and... ANOTHER RED HOOD FIGURE..

----------


## G-Potion

Waiting for that feeling to...

----------


## scary harpy

> Guilliam`s Variant for #14 is up


I saw this and, immediately, the theme to 'Inspector Gadget' began playing in my head.

----------


## Aioros22

> I checked, and that does indeed seem to be the case.


That factor probably has more to do with Loedbell itself as a writer and his take on Kory and Roy being divisive in previous volumes. You get that from reviews even, readers who previously weren`t hot on him praising his current handling in Rebirth. Even the tone of the book was adjusted. 

His take on Jason has always been unanimously well received so I don`t really see the issue is him being a villain or not.

----------


## Aioros22

http://lightningstrikes-art.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Is this the actual thing? Soy doesn`t have it finished for display in his Twitter account.

----------


## Godlike13

> Is this the actual thing? Soy doesn`t have it finished for display in his Twitter account.


It should be thing, damn. Talk about a cool new stylized direction for Red Hood.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is this the actual thing? Soy doesn`t have it finished for display in his Twitter account.


Must be an edit, this is the final piece he has on his facebook

----------


## Aioros22

Looking closer it`s a cutout. You can tell by the leg surrounded by the tree. Whoever did it appearantly didn`t wrote Hood in the actual formal Kanji according to a note on this edit.

----------


## Aioros22

By the by, any heads up about our new editor yet?

----------


## G-Potion

Aside from the guy potentially being Rob Levin (still wondering how Dark figured it out, the only clue is that both Antone and Soy follow him on twitter), nothing else that I know of.

----------


## G-Potion

As an aside, I managed to get something drawn for Jason's birthday finally. Will get it here in a few.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

You mean like a commision  :Wink:  show show show!

I have no idea what sort of books Levin is editing but I`ll dig a bit out of curiosity.

----------


## G-Potion

Batman Beyond and Injustice 2 and some other stuff. He's mostly credited as assistant editor.

----------


## G-Potion

> You mean like a commision  show show show!
> 
> I have no idea what sort of books Levin is editing but I`ll dig a bit out of curiosity.


Actually I draw it myself. I should wait a bit more before showing off so I can look at it with critical eyes but it's been 3 days and I'm tired plus impatient.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeaahh I did it! It's not Jason's birthday anymore but it's still his birth week. Link is here since it's pretty big.  :Big Grin: 

Artemis: You're going home and eat your damn cake!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I love the chibi style, nice work!

----------


## Assam

*Brain*: "Be f**king polite!" 

*Me*: "But..." 

*Brain*: "Quit being such a fangirl. We both know it's really well drawn!" 

*Me*: "I know it's just..." 

*Brain*: "DO IT!"  :Mad: 

*Me*: "Okay, okay." 

@G-Potion That really is nice looking.

----------


## Aioros22

Wow, look at the colors pop!

The chibi is just wonderful and Roy and Bizarro may well be my favorites  :Wink:  Don`t listen to your brain G, that nasty pesker.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Love the artwork G. My favorite part is Batman with the cake. I love how shadowy you made his figure and how the colors throughout just pop. I also like that you included Roy and Starfire here. Awesome piece.

----------


## G-Potion

> *Brain*: "Be f**king polite!" 
> 
> *Me*: "But..." 
> 
> *Brain*: "Quit being such a fangirl. We both know it's really well drawn!" 
> 
> *Me*: "I know it's just..." 
> 
> *Brain*: "DO IT!" 
> ...


Is it about not including the batgirls?  :Stick Out Tongue:  In my defense drawing this many characters is really a lot of work and getting all the robins as well as the outlaws in took everything I've got. Thanks for still liking it in spite of that.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> I love the chibi style, nice work!


Thanks Dark! Took inspiration from the memory scene from RHATO#3 and the chibi style in last issue. Glad it came out well.

----------


## G-Potion

> Love the artwork G. My favorite part is Batman with the cake. I love how shadowy you made his figure and how the colors throughout just pop. I also like that you included Roy and Starfire here. Awesome piece.


Thanks!! The whole time I was like... why am I spending 1233521 hours on this cake when it can barely be seen??!!? Since it's your favorite part I guess it paid off after all.  :Big Grin: 

Like, seriously, this is how detailed the cake is.



I have skewed priorities.

----------


## G-Potion

> Wow, look at the colors pop!
> 
> The chibi is just wonderful and Roy and Bizarro may well be my favorites  Don`t listen to your brain G, that nasty pesker.


Thanks!! My favorite part is Artemis dragging Jason along, but I was surprised how well Bizarro turned out, since I barely had any idea how to draw him at first, but after getting lucky with the initial sketch, it just snowballed from there.

----------


## AJpyro

> Yeaahh I did it! It's not Jason's birthday anymore but it's still his birth week. Link is here since it's pretty big. 
> 
> Artemis: You're going home and eat your damn cake!!


This speaks to me. It says: Stop being a grump and eat your cake with the fam Jay.

----------


## G-Potion

> This speaks to me. It says: Stop being a grump and eat your cake with the fam Jay.


Exactly what I wanted to convey. Also Artemis is this close to clock him in the face. Stop dragging your feet Jason.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

Jason being dragged is awesome but to be expected, that`s their dinamic  :Wink: 

I am The Night with the cake gave me a _Batman and Sons_ vibe, which is all good praise. Papa Bats is the best bats.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Yeaahh I did it! It's not Jason's birthday anymore but it's still his birth week. Link is here since it's pretty big. 
> 
> Artemis: You're going home and eat your damn cake!!


Holy crap. That is beyond amazing

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dextersoy posted this.



Looking to be one of the best helmets out there already.

----------


## G-Potion

> Holy crap. That is beyond amazing


High praise! Thanks!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Jason`s musical stich continues, this time featured on a side tour  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

fish-ghost.deviantart.com

----------


## Assam

> Jason`s musical stich continues, this time featured on a side tour


I wonder how they'll do in the battle of the bands against Great Frog.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Looking at the latest variant gag I wonder if they would actually pull Jason getting that helmet.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #16
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by MIKE McKONE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“Bizarro Reborn” part three! They may only use the title “Outlaws” as cover for Red Hood’s clandestine war on crime—but their status as Gotham City’s most wanted has landed them in the prison yard at Belle Reve Penitentiary! But are they locked in with the Suicide Squad—or is the Suicide Squad locked in with the Outlaws? Harley Quinn, Killer Croc and Deadshot go out of the way to make Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro feel right at home in this maximum-security prison…while Amanda Waller rustles up three new brain bombs!
On sale NOVEMBER 8 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+



Ugh, the Suicide Squad

And see how they ended up jobbing to the Tec team?

----------


## Caivu

> And see how they ended up jobbing to the Tec team?


There is no way you can say that without knowing what happens.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> There is no way you can say that without knowing what happens.


Yeah, because winning a fight is rewarded with a lock up on Belle Reve and be at the mercy of Waller and the SS.

----------


## Caivu

> Yeah, because winning a fight is rewarded with a lock up on Belle Reve and be at the mercy of Waller and the SS.


You don't how they get beaten, for starters.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It doesn't matter how you are trying to spin it. The fact remains that stars of the book took a dive so the guests would look good.

----------


## The Whovian

Bizzaro or Artemis would beat the snot out of the Suicide Squad. All three of them would absolutely destroy the SS. If written correctly, the SS should receive a big beatdown.

----------


## Caivu

> It doesn't matter how you are trying to spin it. The fact remains that stars of the book took a dive so the guests would look good.


You don't know that. You're equating "Outlaws losing" with "Outlaws taking a dive" and those aren't equivalent.

----------


## Assam

UGH! First New Super-Man and now HERE! Leave me alone Suicide Squad! We don't want you! 

I swear, if we're getting this IN PLACE of more interaction with the 'Tec team, I'm gonna be mighty pissed.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh and Trinity

TRINITY #15
Written by ROB WILLIAMS
Art by V KEN MARION and MICK GRAY
Cover by PHILIP TAN
JUSTICE LEAGUE variant cover by BEN OLIVER
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“DARK DESTINY” finale! Constantine’s quick thinking has bought the trinity some time, but is it enough for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman to stop Circe and Ra’s al Ghul from unleashing the Pandora Pits? Uncertainties mount as *Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro rush in to...save the day?*
On sale NOVEMBER 15 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence.

----------


## Alycat

Booo Suicide Squad sucks.

----------


## rev516

Least Bruce rekt their sh*t in their own book. SS annoys me.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yeah, because winning a fight is rewarded with a lock up on Belle Reve and be at the mercy of Waller and the SS.


I will happily be annoyed with you if the Outlaws are made to look bad, but I think it remains to be seen. One, Batman knows what they're up to, so would he just let Jason go to prison without telling anyone what's up? Two, this line, "But are they locked in with the Suicide Squador is the Suicide Squad locked in with the Outlaws?" also indicates it could be a ruse.

For now, I'll look forward to the issue still just because the stuff in Batwoman gave me hope that Kate doesn't just have the "ugh, Jason" kind of attitude that I seem to remember from the other time they interacted. It seems like they could develop a friendly/working relationship. If we didn't have that Batwoman issue, I'd be more worried. I'm a fan of both, so I'd like to see some good stuff.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And see how they ended up jobbing to the Tec team?


I really don't think Lobdell will job his own team in their own book. There's something else going on here and I'm willing to wait to see what it is exactly before screaming about the Outlaws being "jobbed" the 'Tec or anyone else for that matter.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I really don't think Lobdell will job his own team in their own book.* There's something else going on here* and I'm willing to wait to see what it is exactly before screaming about the Outlaws being "jobbed" the 'Tec or anyone else for that matter.


Yeah, editorial messing up with the title once again.

----------


## Aioros22

This a clear ruse. Whatever Bizarro will be involved in, SS or Belle Reeve are part of it.

When was the last time editorial messed the book outside ordering crossovers as they usually do?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> You don't know that. You're equating "Outlaws losing" with "Outlaws taking a dive" and those aren't equivalent.


It doesn't matter what reasoning you use, you won't get through to triggered fans.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s the evil of marketing fare. Way they word it you may think the Trinity are the underdogs to the TEC and now the SS but for all his faults, Loedbell never had his stars flat out job to anyone, including Superman. As in, the former team did as well as you would put it. These solicits are nothing but selling drama. 

We are now having more crossovers with RATHO because not coincidently, the book is unanimously better received but you can also argue that it is to raise numbers so I can get why some fans will worry but I don`t think this creative team would fold like that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah, editorial messing up with the title once again.


Sorry but until I see the issue in question and see its a clear cut case of "jobbing" I can't say that is the case at all and neither can anyone else. At the moment its pure conjecture. However Lobdell has never in his entire run on the any version of the team jobbed the Outlaws to anyone and I doubt he would start now. Also these are the November solicits and the Annual comes at the end of the current month. For all we know at this point the events of the annual have nothing at all to do with the events of this newly solicited issue.

----------


## G-Potion

Not that I want to see anymore of SS but why so pessimistic? Why not just wait to see what actually happens. In Lobdell we trust.  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

> Not that I want to see anymore of SS but why so pessimistic? Why not just wait to see what actually happens. In Lobdell we trust.


Anyone think Lobdell might make a connection between Jason and Harley, suppose she might recognize him from their arkham sessions?

----------


## Alycat

> Not that I want to see anymore of SS but why so pessimistic? Why not just wait to see what actually happens. In Lobdell we trust.


I just don't like them recently. Especially Harley. Over saturation for me. Also as a whole the November solicits looking pretty meh.

At least I have the annual to look forward too!Been awhile since any teases though I guess the preview is later in the week anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone think Lobdell might make a connection between Jason and Harley, suppose she might recognize him from their arkham sessions?


Yeah that's exactly what I'd rather see if Harley and Jason are to interact in anyway. Or they can also bond over their hatred for the Joker.

----------


## G-Potion

> I just don't like them recently. Especially Harley. Over saturation for me. Also as a whole the November solicits looking pretty meh.
> 
> At least I have the annual to look forward too!Been awhile since any teases though I guess the preview is later in the week anyway.


Kirkham just posted a new tease but it features Nightwing and KGBeast so I didn't bring it here.

----------


## EMarie

> Anyone think Lobdell might make a connection between Jason and Harley, suppose she might recognize him from their arkham sessions?


Probably but the whole thing confuses me. When did Harley change because I recall New 52 had a panel/page of her fighting Dick as Robin. If she was Harley Quinn all that time when did she see Jason as a patient? Surely she worked with Joker by the time Jason became Red Hood. Why was he in Arkham? The Morrison stuff? The storyline where Winick had Bruce force Jason to stay there despite him not being insane? I always felt that was too cruel of a take.

Yeah I'm sick of the SS and Harley too. I'd rather have a follow up with Duella than see these guys.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason managed to escape being involved on Metal (even if it would've been a alternate universe version). Smaller Victories I guess

----------


## G-Potion

But that's 4 robins I see there right?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah but all of them are identical, making it look more like clones that actual individuals.

----------


## RedBird

> Probably but the whole thing confuses me. When did Harley change because I recall New 52 had a panel/page of her fighting Dick as Robin. If she was Harley Quinn all that time when did she see Jason as a patient? Surely she worked with Joker by the time Jason became Red Hood. Why was he in Arkham? The Morrison stuff? The storyline where Winick had Bruce force Jason to stay there despite him not being insane? I always felt that was too cruel of a take.
> 
> Yeah I'm sick of the SS and Harley too. I'd rather have a follow up with Duella than see these guys.


I feel like a lot of new52 can easily be scrapped, including any little continuity problems like that. 

However, if Lobdell does continue this little thread, consider the possibility that durings Jasons time in Arkham, he and Harley had cells beside each other where she psychoanalyzed him instead. He calls her Docter Quinzel in rhato, but that could just be a title for what she was doing with him (treating him like a patient) its not too far fetched to imagine that she simply 'looked up his file' one day and started giving him advice regardless.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah but all of them are identical, making it look more like clones that actual individuals.


Oh hardy har DC

Though I still think the one to the front is Jason considering the bloody and ruined cape, and the one clinging to batjokermans leg is Damian considering the black sleeves and leggings. Artists still enjoy easter eggs.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I feel like a lot of new52 can easily be scrapped, including any little continuity problems like that. 
> 
> However, if Lobdell does continue this little thread, consider the possibility that durings Jasons time in Arkham, he and Harley had cells beside each other where she psychoanalyzed him instead. He calls her Docter Quinzel in rhato, but that could just be a title for what she was doing with him (treating him like a patient) its not too far fetched to imagine that she simply 'looked up his file' one day and started giving him advice regardless.


The N52 is canon for Jason. Lobdell has gone so far to say that the bit about Jason stealing meds from Leslie is still canon for him.

----------


## RedBird

> The N52 is canon for Jason. Lobdell has gone so far to say that the bit about Jason stealing meds from Leslie is still canon for him.


Ugh I would rather not have the med scene ever again, but regardless, yeah the new52 is canon, for Jason, certain things have changed during rebirth and if the biggest problem for continuity to have Docter Quinzel treating Jason in Arkham is one particular fight scene with Dick it doesnt seem like a huge loss. I just wouldnt be surprised if no one bothered with that again. Though like I said, it may be that she 'treated him' when she also was a patient, which I think would be more interesting and not disrupt the continuity either.

----------


## RedBird

I give credit to Lobdell there is a lot of info that he has used across pre52 to new52 to rebirth, including Jason being housed in Arkham, he has been fairly consistent. However, no offense to Lobdell, but I think his claim that the med scene is *still* canon is a case of him not wanting to detract from his own writing. 
*
Rhato v1 issue #0*

_"I almost got away with it too...Thats when I met him."_

*Rhato v2 rebirth*
_
"But that was the night...I met the Batman."_


You can only meet someone once.

----------


## G-Potion

IIRC when he said that he meant the way he writes things, he could still fit everything into current continuity with just a few details altered, not that the med scene happened exactly like it did in new52.

----------


## RedBird

> IIRC when he said that he meant the way he writes things, he could still fit everything into current continuity with just a few details altered, not that the med scene happened exactly like it did in new52.


And I would gladly tell him, please Mr, Lobdell, don't bother. 

We have already seen Jason actually meet Bruce whilst removing his tires, we have seen that he was placed under Ma Gunns care assumingely after the tire and burger stuff, (can't imagine Bruce just dropping Jason, a homeless child off somewhere like seeya!) So Jason was staying at the boys home, and we have seen him foil Ma Gunns plans and save Batman. Now Lobdells saying theres *another* sequence, which would mean that Bruce apparently was like, thanks kid, went along his way, knowing Ma Gunns was going to prison most likely forcing the boys home to shut down and forcing Jason to continue stealing? Till he got hurt enough to end up in hospital, till he again stole from Leslie? That just feels like too much in between nonsense. 

Say what you want about the original more goofy post crisis origin, but Bruces interventions at least made more sense. For one thing they were sooner, and they were at least more clear, he appeared much more responsible and compassionate (like he did for this rebirth origin). 

Post crisis origin breakdown
1. Tire scene meeting/apartment meeting. 
2. A push from Bruce for Jason to be part of Ma Gunns school. 
3. After Bruce sent Jason he did some research on Jason (because what kinda person with that amount of resources wouldnt at least check up on a clearly homeless orphan) 
4. Ma Gunn turns out to be bad and both Jason and Bruce foil her plans, not knowing the other would show up. 
And that was it. rebirth has already done a smaller step by step of that story and thats all thats needed, adding the med scene on top of that just complicates things and makes it seem like Bruce kept ignoring a kid that he had initially reached out for and bonded with in the first place.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And I would gladly tell him, please Mr, Lobdell, don't bother. 
> 
> We have already seen Jason actually meet Bruce whilst removing his tires, we have seen that he was placed under Ma Gunns care assumingely after the tire and burger stuff, (can't imagine Bruce just dropping Jason, a homeless child off somewhere like seeya!) So Jason was staying at the boys home, and we have seen him foil Ma Gunns plans and save Batman. Now Lobdells saying theres *another* sequence, which would mean that Bruce apparently was like, thanks kid, went along his way, knowing Ma Gunns was going to prison most likely forcing the boys home to shut down and forcing Jason to continue stealing? Till he got hurt enough to end up in hospital, till he again stole from Leslie? That just feels like too much in between nonsense. 
> 
> Say what you want about the original more goofy post crisis origin, but Bruces interventions at least made more sense. For one thing they were sooner, and they were at least more clear, he appeared much more responsible and compassionate (like he did for this rebirth origin). 
> 
> Post crisis origin breakdown
> 1. Tire scene meeting/apartment meeting. 
> 2. A push from Bruce for Jason to be part of Ma Gunns school. 
> ...





> _DKN: Red Hood and the Outlaws has embraced what Rebirth is all about: It’s taking classic concepts and bringing them into the modern era. Why did you decide to reintegrate the classic Post-Crisis origin of Jason Todd into modern continuity, along with Ma Gunn? I have to admit the latter brought a smile to my face.
> _
> Scott Lobdell: *There’s nothing in The New 52 that precluded Ma Gunn. It was just part of the origin that wasn’t touched on whenever I was touching on his earlier days. Similarly, if people go back and see The New 52, there were elements that if readers wanted to add in the origin of him knocking over the Batmobile, that could still exist. I don’t think I used Rebirth to go back on his more recent origin as much as it fleshed it out more.* I read a review where someone complained that it doesn’t make sense that Bruce would give Jason more burgers and then take him to the mansion and say, “You’re Robin.” That’s not how it happened.
> 
> As the series progresses, we’re going to be filling in more gaps. We’re going to realize that Ma Gunn has always been a part of Jason’s origin and what got him to where he is now. This marm version of her is a cover for using all that money she’s made to kind of live the high life. I would love to have her show up more and be an Alfred for the team.


http://darkknightnews.com/2016/08/09...d-the-outlaws/

----------


## RedBird

> http://darkknightnews.com/2016/08/09...d-the-outlaws/


And? 

I already knew of this interview and Lobdell's feelings on the matter. Him saying, it could have still happened when the new52 origin was in place is a nonsensical answer. I dont remember him claiming the original origin of tire stealing was still in continuity before rebirth. And we as audiences members are not at fault in that regard for assuming that it was erased if it *really* was an unexplained writing thread as he claims. If we are receiving an origin story for a character the assumption is that this is where they started, and once again, THAT is where Jason claims to have met Batman, which the rebirth origin contradicts now. Plus my point overall was that adding the med scene only creates unnecessary gaps between when Jason met Batman and when Batman decided to do something about the kid that he kept trying to engage with.

----------


## Aioros22

> I give credit to Lobdell there is a lot of info that he has used across pre52 to new52 to rebirth, including Jason being housed in Arkham, he has been fairly consistent. However, no offense to Lobdell, but I think his claim that the med scene is *still* canon is a case of him not wanting to detract from his own writing. 
> *
> Rhato v1 issue #0*
> 
> _"I almost got away with it too...Thats when I met him."_
> 
> *Rhato v2 rebirth*
> _
> "But that was the night...I met the Batman."_
> ...


Any writer can pull the technicality between meeting someone and actually meeting that someone. The second encounter is when Jason and Bruce actually talk. 

Not to say you`re wrong, btw, but that one word is easily editable and you can work both ways which is why Loedbell likely doesn`t see the need to scrap pretty much anything. In fact you can even make both of these encounters happen in the same night. Leslie vouches for Jason so he doesn`t get arrested, only for him to take a piss at mr super policeman from earlier and steal the tires while Batman is still hanging in Crime Alley. 

There might come a point where this storytelling may do more wrong than good, this Morrison-ey need of everything counts but as long he manages to juggle it, I say give it a go. 

His tenure at Arkham for example, seems a callback at AK where Harley was part of the staff, it doesn`t necessarily mean any especific point like Morrison`s B&R. Again, you can easily make it work. We know in broad strokes UTRH happens and Jason has Batman at gunpoint but doesn`t pull the trigger. Quite possible he gets taken afterwards to Arkham (note: Roy does mention in the beginning of RATHO vol.1 "There`s many who would call him crazy.." or something of that order). 

You know how to make that even sweeter? During his brief tenure at Arkham Jason met this broken girl, Scarlet..

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah but all of them are identical, making it look more like clones that actual individuals.


Oh, this won`t bode well for any number of fans  :Wink: 

1) "They`re identical, not actual individuals" = I think hardy har is most appropiate. 

2) "Where are the girls?" = They just don`t care. 

3) "Whew, my favorite is safe!" = Technically, no, it`s four of them. Identical as may, all they need is a GrimBats "Bad Robin hehehe" line to one of them and the Forumwars comemence. 


May the heavens give me patience for the upror that will take place.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hi Jason

----------


## G-Potion

Who cracked his cowl? I see some hair.  :EEK!:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Wildcat did

----------


## G-Potion

This is the moment. They will either ruin Jason with this or not. Threatening a kid, really?

----------


## rev516

> Jason managed to escape being involved on Metal (even if it would've been a alternate universe version). Smaller Victories I guess


Highkey creepy

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This is the moment. They will either ruin Jason with this or not. Threatening a kid, really?


Assuming they keep the comic canon to the game, Jason would go through a a personal character arc  so he remains the same character that he's on the game as the Red Hood.

Or all the stuff pointing towards Jason might be a red herring.

----------


## adrikito

> Hi Jason


Injustice... I saw the worst of my characters here..

----------


## Alycat

> This is the moment. They will either ruin Jason with this or not. Threatening a kid, really?


It's Injustice, everyone is ruined in some way to be fair. Anyway the kid was fine and defended himself.

----------


## Fergus

> Oh hardy har DC
> 
> Though I still think the one to the front is Jason considering the bloody and ruined cape, and the one clinging to batjokermans leg is Damian considering the black sleeves and leggings. Artists still enjoy easter eggs.


You are correct. Dick is next to Damian and T** is on the far side.

----------


## Aioros22

Injustice is actually well written for the most part. If some characters don`t act exactly as what we know is because the setting is also different but there`s few books with the world building and characters shinning like this one. 

The size of the cast is ludricious and yet everyone gets to do something cool.

----------


## Aioros22

TRINITY #15 
V KEN MARION  GRAY   PHILIP TAN   BEN OLIVER 
DARK DESTINY finale! Constantines quick thinking has bought the trinity some time, but is it enough for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman to stop Circe and Ras al Ghul from unleashing the Pandora Pits? Uncertainties mount as Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro rush in tosave the day?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You are correct. Dick is next to Damian and T** is on the far side.


Those aren't legging nor sleeves on the one clinging to the Batman who Laughs' leg, is the lighting.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Hi Jason


Oh F%$#! Damnit Taylor  :Mad: 

They better make a good character arc out of this mess because there is nothing in here that I don't hate.

----------


## Fergus

> Those aren't legging nor sleeves on the one clinging to the Batman who Laughs' leg, is the lighting.


I never said they were nor do they have to be just that these guys are clearly stand ins for Batman's 4 male Robins generic easy to recognise Robin gear. 

The Dark Damian Robintron from Nightwing who warned us about the coming of these guys was wearing the oldtimey hotpants robin gear that Damian would never and has never worn. It's just regulation Robin gear it doesn't have to be specific.

----------


## Aioros22

NEW TALENT SHOWCASE 2017 #1
The latest graduates from the DC Talent Development Workshops show off their skills in stories starring some of DCs greatest characters. In these tales, Poison Ivy fights an ancient demon, Doctor Fate is confronted by the cost of magic, _Red Hood and Duke Thomas face off in a training day simulation_ and so much more!

----------


## adrikito

> Jason managed to escape being involved on Metal (even if it would've been a alternate universe version). Smaller Victories I guess



WOW.. Is like the Joker in a strange costume with his own robins..

----------


## Aahz

> Assuming they keep the comic canon to the game, Jason would go through a a personal character arc  so he remains the same character that he's on the game as the Red Hood.
> 
> Or all the stuff pointing towards Jason might be a red herring.


It looks at the moment more as if Damian would be the one who gets to some kind of redemption arc.

But am I the only on how finds it strange that he can beat up Batman easily but needs guns to handle Wildcat?

----------


## Alycat

Wildcat is an underrated badass in hand to hand.

Also Aahz, your point about Damian is one I had as well. They keep flip flopping on how sympathetic he is and if should get a redemption, which we know he won't. My theory is that in the first game he was suppose to be unsympathetic and evil but by the time the comics started, they realized it was poor timing with how much people like comic Damian, comic Damian death, and how ooc they found everything involving Dick. So now they are stuck with making Dicks death a stupid accident and trying to fix Damian's character.

----------


## Aahz

> Wildcat is an underrated badass in hand to hand.


But usually not better than Batman.

Anyway I hope Jason gets a little bit more focus soon, it is a little wired that they bring him and Damians siter in and than don't really do really explore their back ground.

Btw. does anybody know how many issues the series will have?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It looks at the moment more as if Damian would be the one who gets to some kind of redemption arc.


Again, if the comic is lining up with the game Damian will remain as much as an ass as he's now.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> trinity #15 
> v ken marion • gray •  philip tan •  ben oliver 
> “dark destiny” finale! Constantine’s quick thinking has bought the trinity some time, but is it enough for batman, superman and wonder woman to stop circe and ra’s al ghul from unleashing the pandora pits? Uncertainties mount as red hood, artemis and bizarro rush in to…save the day?


"dae red hood and outlaws are jobbing?!"

----------


## Aioros22

> It looks at the moment more as if Damian would be the one who gets to some kind of redemption arc.
> 
> But am I the only on how finds it strange that he can beat up Batman easily but needs guns to handle Wildcat?


The same Wildcat that an issue earlier said Bruce`s "form" was shit when they were both figthing LOA?

----------


## Caivu

Kirkham's comp copies:

Screenshot_20170822-233135.jpg

----------


## Assam

> The same Wildcat that an issue earlier said Bruce`s "form" was shit when they were both figthing LOA?


Out of curiosity, how IS Ted portrayed in Injustice? (And did Jason kill him? Cause once again, f**k Injustice in that case)

----------


## Caivu

> Out of curiosity, how IS Ted portrayed in Injustice? (And did Jason kill him? Cause once again, f**k Injustice in that case)


He's still a hero, and ridiculously tough. He gets shot at least three times point-blank with a machine gun and still tries to attack Jason, and it's not clear he died.

----------


## Aahz

> Hi Jason


Btw. I don't remember in which year of Injustice Connor was born, but can't be older the 5 at the moment (more likely 3 or 4), so Jason threatening him is really of imo.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeeeee Red Hood in Winner final and Grand final of this week's War of the Gods. THANK YOU SONICFOX!!  :Embarrassment: 
Glad he's finally overcome his aversion to RH vs CW since Evo.




Start from 1:35:12 if no time for the whole Top 8.

----------


## G-Potion

Also this funny match from Viennality. Watch till the end.

----------


## G-Potion

And this one from SummerJam.

----------


## Aioros22

> Out of curiosity, how IS Ted portrayed in Injustice? (And did Jason kill him? Cause once again, f**k Injustice in that case)


1) What caivu said. This is Ted Grant as you know him. No major difference.  

2) I`m banking on not. In the brawl "Batman" claims he doesn`t want to kill him. He gives the first shot the following panel to seemingly give him pause since he wanted to stop the kids from getting away but Ted being the stubburn bastard he is doesn`t stay down. 

3) Jury is still out whereas "Batman" is working on his own accord or whether he`s being controlled but it`s definatly BOTC level of coldness. He was about to blow Harley`s brain off even with her daugther next to her. 

4) Connor is a meta.

----------


## G-Potion

Does anyone think there's something about Jason saying "Im Batman". Just like that. Several times. Does it sound like he's convinced that he is, somehow?

----------


## Alycat

> Does anyone think there's something about Jason saying "Im Batman". Just like that. Several times. Does it sound like he's convinced that he is, somehow?


Might be Pit after effects.

----------


## G-Potion

Thread needs more art.



http://missinkart.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://toixx.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

lol bodyswapped outlaws.




http://pentapoda.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/AlexBananzi

----------


## TheCape

I was reading some Jason/Dick interactions before the reboot and i realized that most of their moments were neutral or downright antagonic, probably because they didn't know eacht other that much during Jason tenure as Robin, beyond 2 instances when Dick gave his blessings about the manttle.

So, how should they be now in the new continuity?

----------


## Aahz

> I was reading some Jason/Dick interactions before the reboot and i realized that most of their moments were neutral or downright antagonic, probably because they didn't know eacht other that much during Jason tenure as Robin, beyond 2 instances when Dick gave his blessings about the manttle.
> 
> So, how should they be now in the new continuity?


I think they should still act a little bit antagonistic. Dick had a pretty good dynamic with some other antiheros in the past (Raptor, Tiger, Midnighter) threfore I think something similar would work quite good. Unfortunatly that wasn't really what we got sfar pre reboot. I hope Lobdell can make it work in the Annual next week.

----------


## Aahz

> Does anyone think there's something about Jason saying "Im Batman". Just like that. Several times. Does it sound like he's convinced that he is, somehow?


Sounds more like the main inspiration of the writer for Jason is BftC.

----------


## Aioros22

Or you know, mind conditioning from the LOA. Still early to tell.

----------


## Aioros22

> I was reading some Jason/Dick interactions before the reboot and i realized that most of their moments were neutral or downright antagonic, probably because they didn't know eacht other that much during Jason tenure as Robin, beyond 2 instances when Dick gave his blessings about the manttle.
> 
> So, how should they be now in the new continuity?


A bit on the antagonist side since they never fully got to know each other back then but at the same time a love/hate thing. i`m all for bringing some pre crisis sensibility back so that goes in hand. Their dinamic should succintly be of the two elders. For all intents and porposes, Jason was the first to carry a legacy, which places the two of them in a unique spot among the franchise.

----------


## Aioros22

好二哥，生日快乐，摸摸大 来自Adling - 微博


Always a trill to see how much the Asian art market lurves the Hood.

----------


## Alycat

> A bit on the antagonist side since they never fully got to know each other back then but at the same time a love/hate thing. i`m all for bringing some pre crisis sensibility back so that goes in hand. Their dinamic should succintly be of the two elders. For all intents and porposes, Jason was the first to carry a legacy, which places the two of them in a unique spot among the franchise.


Which is such a unique thing that nobody has capitalized on yet. Like we hardly ever get them in a panel alone much less a book to explore stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> A bit on the antagonist side since they never fully got to know each other back then but at the same time a love/hate thing. i`m all for bringing some pre crisis sensibility back so that goes in hand. Their dinamic should succintly be of the two elders. For all intents and porposes, Jason was the first to carry a legacy, which places the two of them in a unique spot among the franchise.


What I feel as well.

----------


## Aahz

> Which is such a unique thing that nobody has capitalized on yet. Like we hardly ever get them in a panel alone much less a book to explore stuff.


It will be hopefully done in the Annual next week. 
I just hope Lobdell gets it right, and doesn't go for "Jason is jealous of Dick and will never be as good as him in anything".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The opposite (what King and Tynioni did) is not better so I hope he can find a middle ground

----------


## Aioros22

He never wrote him like that. 

Nigthwing isn`t Batman for editors to step in and demand a certain characterization from him. Impressively enough, not even Batman editors usually do when he meets the Hood.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Lobdell is the one handling the annual and it was edited by the normal editor as well so I really don't get all this concern over how Jason will be depicted in relation to Dick. This is an annual for his own freaking book and Lobdell certainly doesn't make a habit of portraying Jason badly in relation to his brothers. If someone else was handling it or if the book was being edited in the Bat office then all this concern _might_ be justified but none of that is happening here.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The annual is edited by the new editorial team.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The annual is edited by the new editorial team.


I thought that the previous editor said the annual was his last job on RHATO. That was the impression I got from the tweet anyway.

----------


## TheCape

I would have like to see interactions beetween Tim and Jason in the Pre-Flashpoint universe, written by Judd Winnick, in an interview he mentioned that Jason hates Tim more than any other Robin because he was his remplacement, seeing Tim more as a concept than a person, it was irrational for his part, but i think it could have ended some interesting tales, specially with previous admiration/obssesion with his predecessor and becoming a more morally grey characther in Red Robin (i always had the sensation that Tim's moral code is a lot more loose than Bruce or Dick), it was such a wasted opportunity.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I would have like to see interactions beetween Tim and Jason in the Pre-Flashpoint universe, written by Judd Winnick, in an interview he mentioned that Jason hates Tim more than any other Robin because he was his remplacement, seeing Tim more as a concept than a person, it was irrational for his part, but i think it could have ended some interesting tales, specially with previous admiration/obssesion with his predecessor and becoming a more morally grey characther in Red Robin (i always had the sensation that Tim's moral code is a lot more loose than Bruce or Dick), it was such a wasted opportunity.


I only read the first volume of Red Robin, and it was a long time ago, so what did Tim do that was morally gray?

----------


## Alycat

> I would have like to see interactions beetween Tim and Jason in the Pre-Flashpoint universe, written by Judd Winnick, in an interview he mentioned that Jason hates Tim more than any other Robin because he was his remplacement, seeing Tim more as a concept than a person, it was irrational for his part, but i think it could have ended some interesting tales, specially with previous admiration/obssesion with his predecessor and becoming a more morally grey characther in Red Robin (i always had the sensation that Tim's moral code is a lot more loose than Bruce or Dick), it was such a wasted opportunity.


Is he really that much more grey? I mean most of the people Dick deals with are morally  grey and so was his work as a spy and with the owls.

----------


## Jovos2099

I just the gotham by gaslight movie and apparently theres a version of jason dick and tim in the movie which is cool.

----------


## TheCape

> Is he really that much more grey? I mean most of the people Dick deals with are morally grey and so was his work as a spy and with the owls.


He didn't do anything incredibly shady, but he started to develop some control freak tendencies and the were manyimplications than that was going to lead him into some bad path, also when you orchestrate the death of a person (Cap Boomerang) and make sure that you don't have to ge get physically involved with it, it said something about yourself, even he didn't go throught with it at the end.

Did i mentipn that i really don't like Seely's take on Dick?

----------


## Alycat

> He didn't do anything incredibly shady, but he started to develop some control freak tendencies and the were manyimplications than that was going to lead him into some bad path, also when you orchestrate the death of a person (Cap Boomerang) and make sure that you don't have to ge get physically involved with it, it said something about yourself, even he didn't go throught with it at the end.
> 
> Did i mentipn that i really don't like Seely's take on Dick?


Even disregarding Seeley there's Dicks time in the Outsiders, Renegade, Huntress , Ravager, Deathstroke, his time as crutches, chances he gave Damian, etc. Dickbdoes this stuff and hangs around morally grey people all the time.

----------


## TheCape

My problem with Grayson is more about the quantity of time that he was there, i don't think that he would have stayed there as long as he did, but you are right he has gotten involved wiht shady people (althougth i wouldn't use Damian and Rose as an example), but with a time limit, but i don't think that he would work with Jason in a long term, after all what he did, with Tim, i think that you could have play his previous admiration about Jason and the obvious mental problems that he was having after Bruce death.

In another note, i'm not a fan Devin's Grayson run either :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

Also, i want left clear that  this idea is more like something that i would have like to see explored in certain period of time when the whole batfamily was in the wake of Buuce's "death", i don't think that is an idea that you could applied nowadays, specially with Jason being friends with the rest of the family and Tim having his entire story changed.


It also would require to, ignore Nicieza's and Daniel's take on Jason.

----------


## Alycat

You reminded me though did Battle for the Cowl take place in some form? Also how did Jason end up in Arkham if it didn't?

----------


## TheCape

> You reminded me though did Battle for the Cowl take place in some form? Also how did Jason end up in Arkham if it didn't?


Jason story in the New 52 is very.... vague to say the least, we know that at some point he tried to kill Bruce and Dick stopped him and we know that what Morrison did, still must be canon in some form, but that's about it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I just the gotham by gaslight movie and apparently theres a version of jason dick and tim in the movie which is cool.






The Lost Boys of Gotham district. I wasn`t stoked for KJ but I _am_ for this one.

----------


## Aioros22

> You reminded me though did Battle for the Cowl take place in some form? Also how did Jason end up in Arkham if it didn't?


UTRH fallout, most likely.

----------


## Alycat

> UTRH fallout, most likely.


Hmm that would mean Bruce let him get out in there then.

----------


## Aahz

> The Lost Boys of Gotham district. I wasn`t stoked for KJ but I _am_ for this one.


Don't like that Jason has Red Hair again  :Mad:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It looks black to me.

No idea who's the red head kid with the knife though.

----------


## Godlike13

> It looks black to me.
> 
> No idea who's the red head kid with the knife though.


That was Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Unless I'm hearing/understanding wrong, the red head kid says "Ain't that right Dickie?" to which the black haired kid with the pipe (that almost looks like a crowbar) answers "Name's Jason, remember?"

----------


## Alycat

> Unless I'm hearing/understanding wrong, the red head kid says "Ain't that right Dickie?" to which the black haired kid with the pipe (that almost looks like a crowbar) answers "Name's Jason, remember?"


He says that like they have code names and Jason messed up by saying his real name. Black haired kid is Dick because it not said like my name's Jason and more like Names,Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

And there's a scene where red hair Jason attacks Batman with a tire iron so...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hmm, if you say so.

In any case I doubt that will be anything more than a nod to the comics.

----------


## G-Potion

Oh wait, it wasn't a tire iron. It was a knife. But even so, I think of all the robins, Jason would be the most likely to do that.

----------


## Alycat

Also why would he be calling the other kid Dickie if it wasn't Dick? Anyway, the movie does look interesting. Nice to get more AU movies.

----------


## Aahz

> He says that like they have code names and Jason messed up by saying his real name. Black haired kid is Dick because it not said like my name's Jason and more like Names,Jason.


Jupp Jason has read hair and messes up the code names, makes me not really excited for this take on the character.

But the character designs of the other 2 robins also doesn't look that great.

----------


## Aioros22

> Jupp Jason has read hair and messes up the code names, makes me not really excited for this take on the character.
> 
> But the character designs of the other 2 robins also doesn't look that great.


JesusChrist.

----------


## RedBird

Nice, so based on the dialogue and the appearances/weapons, the tall one with the Brown Mullet is Dick (of course), the Red head with the knife is Jason, and I feel I can safely guess the small brunet with the pool stick (staff) is Tim. I was already looking forward to this film and this has kinda peaked my interest. 

Also I personally find it very cute that in an alternate universe the first three robin boys managed to find each other and become a team, seemingly without Batman/Bruce to be the catalyst of their lives. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt this the first instance of that happening?

----------


## Aioros22

> Nice, so based on the dialogue and the appearances/weapons, the tall one with the Brown Mullet is Dick (of course), the Red head with the knife is Jason, and I feel I can safely guess the small brunet with the pool stick (staff) is Tim. I was already looking forward to this film and this has kinda peaked my interest. 
> 
> Also I personally find it very cute that in an alternate universe the first three robin boys managed to find each other and become a team, seemingly without Batman/Bruce to be the catalyst of their lives. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt this the first instance of that happening?


Of the three together in one story I think it is. It kind of falls in the same story mode of Flashpoint Jason. 

Jury is still out on who is who, to me. The red haired kid calls the other "Dickie" (which is a Jason thing), not to mention the nod to the origin in swinging at Batman, but the black haired kid, answers "Name`s Jason remember" and is sporting a tire iron, which is a visual nod as well if you interpret it that way. It`s like the three in order to survive in the streets and act as a group did something like switch names or whatever. Which wouldn`t make much sense because if so, Timbo would always Tim his way in.. 

I`m guessing some of this material may be out of synch at this stage.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> He says that like they have code names and Jason messed up by saying his real name. Black haired kid is Dick because it not said like my name's Jason and more like Names,Jason.


Yeah, that's how people seem to be interpreting it. Names, Jason, remember?, admonishing him. And then he uses his name as well lol.

----------


## RedBird

> Of the three together in one story I think it is. It kind of falls in the same story mode of Flashpoint Jason. 
> 
> Jury is still out on who is who, to me. The red haired kid calls the other "Dickie" (which is a Jason thing), not to mention the nod to the origin in swinging at Batman, but the black haired kid, answers "Name`s Jason remember" and is sporting a tire iron, which is a visual nod as well if you interpret it that way. It`s like the three in order to survive in the streets and act as a group did something like switch names or whatever. Which wouldn`t make much sense because if so, Timbo would always Tim his way in.. 
> 
> I`m guessing some of this material may be out of synch at this stage.


Im like 99% the kid who answers (dickie) is talking about code names when he says "names, jason, remember". No other formation of that sentence makes sense anyway considering what is spoken before it. Besides they couldnt give Jason his guns, too pricey for a street punk, but they gave him his pre52 knife or at least, a variation. Plus with Jason being the 'rougher' street kid of the 3 boys (in regular canon) it makes sense why he gets the more deadly weapon. Tim had the pool stick, a make shift bo staff if you will, and with dick, yeah his weapon is a little more vague but Im guessing its meant to compare to an encrima stick, bout the same size anyway. All that coupled with the dialogue, the fact that there ages aligned with their heights, I am certain thats where dc are taking this, little easter eggs and nods to the future renditions of these characters or how we best know them. I doubt dc have any concern about making Jasons signiture weapon what he used once instead of an object that we have seen him use multiple times before.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason only used the kriss knife on UtRH.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason only used the kriss knife on UtRH.


He also had it with him in countdown and in that outsiders arc with Dick and in the Double Nightwing arc.

Let me be specific btw, IT being a knife, like I mentioned in the original post. Not necessarily a kriss. The artists went in and out on that, sometimes making it a kriss sometimes not.

Visual reference btw.

*Outsiders* - It would seem winick was spesific about the knife being a kriss



Plus I forgot to mention! *GREEN ARROW,* the arc where Jason shows up with a kriss, compares himself to Mia.

green arrow red hood.JPG

*Nightwing arc* - It seems Jock, the cover artist was specific about the kriss but not the inside artist, shame.





*Countdown* - Not the kriss in this sequence, if the knife does show up as a kriss from another artist, I wouldnt know at this point.

countdown.JPG

----------


## Aahz

> He also had it with him in countdown and in that outsiders arc with Dick and in the Double Nightwing arc.


And in Green Arrow, he used iirc until he lost it in countdown. And iirc he didn't cary his guns open before countdown either.

----------


## RedBird

> And in Green Arrow, he used iirc until he lost it in countdown. And iirc he didn't cary his guns open before countdown either.


Yeah I already remembered and corrected my post, but cheers :P

I will have to take your word on the guns, as I'm kinda hazy about the timeline of events and appearances but yeah, point being I think Jason is better known for having a knife more so than a tire iron, (all this is not to say I wouldnt want the tire iron to be an object connected to his past like the Batman tire in rebirth, or better yet the crowbar, yikes, just pointing out the continuity and appearances here) 
And although obviously the guns have certainly taken over his image right now, I would also love to see more instances of his knife, or better yet his kriss show up in the comics again.

----------


## Aioros22

> Im like 99% the kid who answers (dickie) is talking about code names when he says "names, jason, remember". No other formation of that sentence makes sense anyway considering what is spoken before it. Besides they couldnt give Jason his guns, too pricey for a street punk, but they gave him his pre52 knife or at least, a variation. Plus with Jason being the 'rougher' street kid of the 3 boys (in regular canon) it makes sense why he gets the more deadly weapon. Tim had the pool stick, a make shift bo staff if you will, and with dick, yeah his weapon is a little more vague but Im guessing its meant to compare to an encrima stick, bout the same size anyway. All that coupled with the dialogue, the fact that there ages aligned with their heights, I am certain thats where dc are taking this, little easter eggs and nods to the future renditions of these characters or how we best know them. I doubt dc have any concern about making Jasons signiture weapon what he used once instead of an object that we have seen him use multiple times before.


That would make sense, I first interpretated the sentence in another way (basically, the difference a , makes). 

Plus the way the red hair kid plays with the knife in the beginning shots resembles Red Hood doing the same in the animated movie.

----------


## Aioros22

By the by, since I know this will keep being discussed, my two cents: 

I like that Jason is the red haired kid. Not only is a nice nod to his history together with other nods already visible (knife, striking at Batman) it`s also very in the nose. The Red without the Hood. 

I like that Jason is seemingly the leader of the little band or at the very least the gutsy one.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep. I mean, look at these. He certainly stands out so far.

http://soldler.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Huh, Dick is a red head too.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah I only noticed that after I posted the gifs. Also mullet.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, his hair looks shades lighter than you`d expect. 

And the fun is, I`m aware the tire iron is supposed to mirror the Escrima Sticks but it`s still so Jason that aside the "Dickie" pun, you may have little Nigthwing to go for. On the other hand, the Snooker cue for the Bo staff is precious.

----------


## RedBird

> I like that Jason is seemingly the leader of the little band or at the very least the gutsy one.




always the first to attack.JPG

When the characters first instinct is to attack Batman despite his size, you know its Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

A+ instinct right there. That and calling Batman a boob won my love.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah, his hair looks shades lighter than you`d expect. 
> 
> And the fun is, I`m aware the tire iron is supposed to mirror the Escrima Sticks but it`s still so Jason that aside the "Dickie" pun, you may have little Nigthwing to go for. On the other hand, the Snooker cue for the Bo staff is precious.


You could say his Nightwing cue is that he walks on the fence.

----------


## Alycat

Mulletwing will live forever.

----------


## Aioros22

Hey, good catch G, that`s right. Playing balance and mullet are nice nods, especially since the most popular animated Nigthwing sported the mullet. 

His design looks blander than Jason in the preview but I`m not going to complain on that note. Timbo is just...there.

----------


## RedBird

> Hey, good catch G, that`s right. Playing balance and mullet are nice nods, especially since the most popular animated Nigthwing sported the mullet. 
> 
> His design looks blander than Jason in the preview but I`m not going to complain on that note. Timbo is just...there.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Bruce Timm like Jason more anyway? 

I feel l remember something about the creators preferring Jasons attitude but having to stick with Tims name for marketing sake when the second robin for BTAS was made.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Bruce Timm like Jason more anyway? 
> 
> I feel l remember something about the creators preferring Jasons attitude but having to stick with Tims name for marketing sake when the second robin for BTAS was made.


I don't think you're wrong on that. If I remember, for a while a lot of batfam artists I followed liked to nickname him Timmy Todd for that reason. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Not sure who he actually prefers (I do have his _Modern Masters_ so I may re-read it again) but regardless of that, he did want to use Jason but TPTB were like, the current guy is a Tim and not having room in terms of timeline for two more, they just made Jason with Tim`s name Which is literally his main characteristic in that character. The name. 

And anytime someone would tell me "well, no, he was also a bit PC savyy, that`s wholy Tim" I`d have to remind them that street rat Jason was not only a national level student, he also got around a bit in the Informatics  :Wink:  kid found out what happened to his father in Batman`s files and later when searching for his mother, broke in a Government facility and hacked one of the prospects outta their files too.

----------


## Aioros22

I think in general non comic book writers prefer Jason`s characteristics to play out Batman. Batman`s Forever Richard Grayson also had elements mixed into: the attitude, the sassyness, going out with the fancy car and use his anger outlet, saving Batman without his orders (something Pre Crisis Jay did well before Tim), the illegal racing.. but in this case the mix was more balanced since it was Dick`s origin being used. There was more of his character than in "Tim`s" case.

----------


## RedBird

> I don't think you're wrong on that. If I remember, for a while a lot of batfam artists I followed liked to nickname him Timmy Todd for that reason.


Yeah thats the thing, I was certain that he was an amalgamation of Jason and Tim, or basically Tim in name only, but I can't quite remember the reasoning or if it extended beyond reasons like marketing, like did the creator seriously have a preference for Jason as a character? Was it Bruce Timm?





> Not sure who he actually prefers (I do have his _Modern Masters_ so I may re-read it again) but regardless of that, he did want to use Jason but TPTB were like, the current guy is a Tim and not having room in terms of timeline for two more, they just made Jason with Tim`s name Which is literally his main characteristic in that character. The name. 
> 
> And anytime someone would tell me "well, no, he was also a bit PC savyy, that`s wholy Tim" I`d have to remind them that street rat Jason was not only a national level student, he also got around a bit in the Informatics  kid found out what happened to his father in Batman`s files and later when searching for his mother, broke in a Government facility and hacked one of the prospects outta their files too.


Sweet, thanks! 

It always makes me a bit sad though knowing even in the few opportunities where creators actually sought out his rendition of robin it had to be bastardized or ignored in some way.

Though knowing this (about the creators original desires) makes me wonder if thats why it seems Jason is stealing the show in these sneak peaks. I wonder if he will continue to stand out in the whole movie.

----------


## Aahz

I fond something here  but since I don't own the DVD I can't check it.




> In Robin Rising, a special feature on the Batman: Animated Series DVD set, Paul Dini and Bruce Timm talk about bringing in a new Robin. 
> 
> Bruce Timm: The kid Robin that we did was both a combination of Tim Drake and Jason Todd.
> 
> Paul Dini: Jason Todd was a version of Robin that was created in, I believe, the late 70s*. Served as Robin for several years and the fans liked him. He ultimately went down a darker path and was murdered by the Joker, which was a very strong story and one that we couldnt do in our series. We ultimately abandoned it.
> 
> BT: The current Robin they had in the comics was Tim Drake, so we decided he should be Tim Drake. But Jason had a really good origin story. So we made him Tim Drake, he had Jasons origin and some of Jasons characteristics. So hes really kind of a half and half conglomerate of the two different Robins.

----------


## Aahz

> Attachment 53715
> 
> When the characters first instinct is to attack Batman despite his size, you know its Jason.


With the differnce that pre flashpoint Jason actually managed to hit him  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I at least prefer Jason with Black Hair, and and the Red Hair just reminds me at the crap Morrison did with him...

But maybe we get at least this time a version of Jason who doesn't get killed.

----------


## RedBird

> With the differnce that pre flashpoint Jason actually managed to hit him 
> 
> I at least prefer Jason with Black Hair, and and the Red Hair just reminds me at the crap Morrison did with him...
> 
> But maybe we get at least this time a version of Jason who doesn't get killed.


Agreed I'm also not fond of the Red Hair myself since it only reminds me of how morrison just *used* Jasons character to tell a story for Dick Grayson. Sacrificing canon and characterizations along the way all for a flimsy trope. Similar to how he was so desperate to tell his story for Damian and his hard life so much so that he managed to defile Talias character as well. Both were morally grey or downright dark characters that he skipped all nuance for and just made 'wacky' and 'crazy'. God I hate morrisons work.

----------


## TheCape

From my post in the Tim thread:




> That's the problem with Morrison, his style is known for being overdramatic and unpredictable, but sometimes comes at expense of charactherization (arguably Dick suffered for that too in his B&R run).


I don't entirely agreed, but i understand how you feel RedBird

----------


## RedBird

> From my post in the Tim thread:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't entirely agreed, but i understand how you feel RedBird


Hey thanks, that is nice to know. 

If you don't mind me asking how did you think Dick 'suffered' in B&R? because to tell you the truth, I actually agree to some extent. Personally I feel that whilst the whole new and lighter Batman with a dark and experienced Robin thing was a cute idea and _generally_ worked, I feel that it came slightly at the expense of Dicks characterization and made him a bit TOO soft for my tastes, again, morrison molding/changing characters to fit his narrative for his story/Damian.

What was it that you found disagreeable?

----------


## TheCape

> Hey thanks, that is nice to know.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking how did you think Dick 'suffered' in B&R? because to tell you the truth, I actually agree to some extent. Personally I feel that whilst the whole new and lighter Batman with a dark and experienced Robin thing was a cute idea and generally worked, I feel that it came slightly at the expense of Dicks characterization and made him a bit TOO soft for my tastes, again, morrison molding/changing characters to fit his narrative for his story/Damian.
> 
> What was it that you found disagreeable?


I love 90% or Morrison's Dick and i dislike 10% of it, the dynamic was good and yes, Dick is less dark than Bruce, but no to the point of being his oppisite, saying things like "i'm not like Bruce, i jump without a net" or "I grew in a circus how i supposed to handle a company" are disservices to his inteligence, Dick has criticized people for jumping head first into situations before and has expirience handling finances and small business in the past (it was a 70s story if i remenber), or how tried to resurrect Bruce in spite of criticizing Tim for trying to do the same in the Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul story arc. 

I still like the run in spite of those flaws too, but i think that Winnick and Snyder wrote a better DickBats than Morrison

----------


## RedBird

> I love 90% or Morrison's Dick and i dislike 10% of it, the dynamic was good and yes, Dick is less dark than Bruce, but no to the point of being his oppisite, saying things like "i'm not like Bruce, i jump without a net" or "I grew in a circus how i supposed to handle a company" are disservices to his inteligence, Dick has criticized people for jumping head first into situations before and has expirience handling finances and small business in the past (it was a 70s story if i remenber), or how tried to resurrect Bruce in spite of criticizing Tim for trying to do the same in the Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul story arc.


Oh man, I forgot about those lines. Agreed. Yeah the overemphasis to Dick as Batmans opposite is weird, and contrary to Dicks depiction in previous incarnations. I always found that each of the first three Robins were all incredibly similar to Bruce in their own ways, and that aspect is now unfortunately more downplayed in Dicks case.





> i think that Winnick and Snyder wrote a better DickBats than Morrison


Double agreed

----------


## Alycat

I understand that people may not like it but downplaying lot of similarities to Bruce may needed to keep Dick from being Batman lite. It's something that Jason doesn't have to worry about but Dick and currently Tim do. The introduction of Damian as Robin required a shift in dynamics that I think is working for everyone not named Tim.

----------


## TheCape

> I understand that people may not like it but downplaying lot of similarities to Bruce may needed to keep Dick from being Batman lite. It's something that Jason doesn't have to worry about but Dick and currently Tim do. The introduction of Damian as Robin required a shift in dynamics that I think is working for everyone not named Tim.


I think that Tim could get back to be the Spider-Man of the Bat-Family and would work just fine for him, but because DC decided to stuck in Teen Titans with Lodbell and with Duke being like 80% of what Tim was in the 90s, is a bit more difficult. Likely he is going to go back to his Red Robin charactherization previous to the reboot.

----------


## RedBird

> I understand that people may not like it but downplaying lot of similarities to Bruce may needed to keep Dick from being Batman lite. It's something that Jason doesn't have to worry about but Dick and currently Tim do. The introduction of Damian as Robin required a shift in dynamics that I think is working for everyone not named Tim.


Oh I know, but Dick still lives in Batmans shadow though, downplaying his similarities and his more dark mindset did nothing to make him stand out from Bruce/Batman, he is still seen as Batman lite, worse still, he is now seen as much more incompetent and airheaded because of it. It was a waste of good characterization out of a certain 'fear' of comparison that frankly, is never gonna be resolved. Being second to Batman/Bruce will forever be Dicks curse as the first 'heir', he is always gonna have the 'never as good as batman' glass ceiling over his head no matter how much fans disagree (as do I), so the fact that intricate and nuanced parts of his personality are sacrificed for such an arbitrary and unwinnable cause is only what makes it that much more frustrating.

And on the subject of the other two, yeah, Jason doesnt have the same problem, but thats because he is too busy being under Dicks shadow as the antithesis to the 'Good Son', despite THAT also being quite a simplification to both his character and relationships with Dick and Bruce.

And Tim doesnt suffer from resembling Bruce more than he does Dick. Now that he has been cast out of his role as 'Robin' its been hard for him to establish a personal identity that differs from Dicks own journey as Nightwing.

----------


## Aahz

> And on the subject of the other two, yeah, Jason doesnt have the same problem, but thats because he is too busy being under Dicks shadow as the antithesis to the 'Good Son', despite THAT also being quite a simplification to both his character and relationships with Dick and Bruce.


I really hope that Lobdell does finally something against it with the annual. But even that would probably not do much unless the guys who write the Batfamily events are finally willing to give him a stronger role in the family, and start highlighting more his strength and not only his flaws.

----------


## kiwiliko

Sorry for screenshot quality because mobile is hating me right now but I gotta say Japan really enjoys their cute chibi Jasons, enough to make two of his designs. From the same group with the ikemen line figures, unfortunately preorders is also Japan only.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Sorry for screenshot quality because mobile is hating me right now but I gotta say Japan really enjoys their cute chibi Jasons, enough to make two of his designs. From the same group with the ikemen line figures, unfortunately preorders is also Japan only.


Do want all of these. I love that Jason got two of them.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sorry for screenshot quality because mobile is hating me right now but I gotta say Japan really enjoys their cute chibi Jasons, enough to make two of his designs. From the same group with the ikemen line figures, unfortunately preorders is also Japan only.


Seeing love for Jason warms my heart.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

> 


God I want em all, especially the Jason ones.

Im pretty sure that the red hood one is part of the set whilst the unmasked red hood one was a limited or special edition thing, right?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The unmasked one is the bonus figure of the set. That usually means is one or two per box.

----------


## adrikito

> Sorry for screenshot quality because mobile is hating me right now but I gotta say Japan really enjoys their cute chibi Jasons, enough to make two of his designs. From the same group with the ikemen line figures, unfortunately preorders is also Japan only.


Even if Burnside Batgirl always ruin all.... I like the rest of characters here.

----------


## kiwiliko

I think there's also another variation of Bruce drifting around as special edition too but unhooded Jason just really took off.

Also I'm not entirely sure how close this thread is to the Asian side of Jasons fandom but I just also want to share fun little translation things.
Jasons most popular nicknames translated are "bucket bro" and "little red riding hood" and I laugh when I imagine any multilingual batfam member hearing the big bad red hood being called this.

----------


## G-Potion

I think the same goes for Chinese fandom as well. The other day I just saw a Chinese fic that tagged Jason as "bucket" haha.

----------


## RedBird

> I think there's also another variation of Bruce drifting around as special edition too but unhooded Jason just really took off.
> 
> Also I'm not entirely sure how close this thread is to the Asian side of Jasons fandom but I just also want to share fun little translation things.
> Jasons most popular nicknames translated are "bucket bro" and "little red riding hood" and I laugh when I imagine any multilingual batfam member hearing the big bad red hood being called this.


Awww thats adorable! Thanks for that info  :Smile: 

Also if its gonna be any batfam member, I think it should be Cassandra. I'm gonna need DC to make her call Jason 'bucket bro' or 'red riding hood' one day.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I think there's also another variation of Bruce drifting around as special edition too but unhooded Jason just really took off.
> 
> Also I'm not entirely sure how close this thread is to the Asian side of Jasons fandom but I just also want to share fun little translation things.
> Jasons most popular nicknames translated are "bucket bro" and "little red riding hood" and I laugh when I imagine any multilingual batfam member hearing the big bad red hood being called this.


Aw! That's so cute! 

I would pay to read a whole doujinshi manga about Jason!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

There's a good amount of doujinshi starring Jason but predictably, most of them are slash fiction.

----------


## kaimaciel

> There's a good amount of doujinshi starring Jason but predictably, most of them are slash fiction.


Yeah... I'll pass on those. Not really my thing, the art is nice though.

----------


## Alycat

> There's a good amount of doujinshi starring Jason but predictably, most of them are slash fiction.


That seems like the majority of anything that fandom ever makes. Dammit I just want regular pics and fiction.

----------


## magpieM

His nickname 红桶 (red bucket) is very intuitive. In some fanart his helmet was indeed a red bucket. And the original joker's red hood was like a bucket, too (somehow...)

Another well-known nickname is 二桶 (two buckets) because he is the second robin boy. This word is more popular in China because it has the same name with a majiang (麻将, mahjong) tile. Very handy.

----------


## Starchild

Besides Under The Red Hood. How come Jason rarely pops up in animation form? Odd.

----------


## G-Potion

> His nickname 红桶 (red bucket) is very intuitive. In some fanart his helmet was indeed a red bucket. And the original joker's red hood was like a bucket, too (somehow...)
> 
> Another well-known nickname is 二桶 (two buckets) because he is the second robin boy. This word is more popular in China because it has the same name with a majiang (麻将, mahjong) tile. Very handy.


Neat detail there! Thanks for sharing!  :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

> Besides Under The Red Hood. How come Jason rarely pops up in animation form? Odd.


Outside of Young Justice, what would he pop up in? Tim is rare as well and Damian only has the very recent and very terrible movies. You don't want him in those cause he would just get treated like poor Dick does. He made a guest appearance on Teen Titans go.

----------


## Assam

> 


I want to burn them all in a pagan ritual. 



> Also if its gonna be any batfam member, I think it should be Cassandra. I'm gonna need DC to make her call Jason 'bucket bro' or 'red riding hood' one day.


It would have been better back when she was his _big_ sister, but yeah, could still be fun.

----------


## Assam

> Besides Under The Red Hood. How come Jason rarely pops up in animation form? Odd.


Well you see, they're just not as _important_ to the franchise as certain other characters who can be used instead. Add in the fact that other characters have more ties in [INSERT NAME OF HERO HERE]'s world, and it's a no brainer why they'd be skipped over.

Or at least, that's the idiotic line people try to sell me whenever I bring up MY favorite characters not appearing in outside media.

----------


## Godlike13

A lot of DCs animation is for kids, and Jason's story is not for kids. And it's not like Red Hood can just gonna pop up as a supporting character. That's not really his story either.

----------


## Starchild

> Well you see, they're just not as _important_ to the franchise as certain other characters who can be used instead. Add in the fact that other characters have more ties in [INSERT NAME OF HERO HERE]'s world, and it's a no brainer why they'd be skipped over.
> 
> Or at least, that's the idiotic line people try to sell me whenever I bring up MY favorite characters not appearing in outside media.


Yeah but with your wording at times, it comes off as you being arrogant about your favorite while tearing everyone else's favorite down. Just a thought.

----------


## Starchild

> A lot of DCs animation is for kids, and Jason story is not for kids. And it's not like Red Hood can just gonna pop up as a supporting character. That's not really his story either.


If John Constantine can appear on Justice League Action then i don't see how Jason couldn't show up on Young Justice or something. He'll be toned a bit but it can still work.

----------


## EMarie

I haven't been getting the Damian movies. Do they mention his backstory as an assassin in training, his family's history or have him get violent like the comics? If so I don't see why Jason can't be in more animation much less in his Robin does. Who's ever story it is depends on who the writer choses to focus on.

Assam: Personally I'd prefer a Cass keychain (as Batgirl or Black Bat) over the Barbara one. But I do love most of them.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah but with your wording at times, it comes off as you being arrogant about your favorite while tearing everyone else's favorite down. Just a thought.


_Everyone_ has characters they love passionately and characters they don't care for, and there's nothing wrong with anyone expressing either opinion.(So long as they're not trolling or flamebaiting) The only thing that separates me from any one else in this regard is that my favorites are ones that tend to get very little, if any, attention, and that can leave me bitter.

----------


## Godlike13

> I haven't been getting the Damian movies. Do they mention his backstory as an assassin in training, his family's history or have him get violent like the comics? If so I don't see why Jason can't be in more animation much less in his Robin does. Who's ever story it is depends on who the writer choses to focus on.
> 
> Assam: Personally I'd prefer a Cass keychain (as Batgirl or Black Bat) over the Barbara one. But I do love most of them.


My point was more about that it could be that maybe kid shows don't necessarily want to show kids dying, which is a big part of Jason's story, rather then that they want to avoid extreme violence.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> A lot of DCs animation is for kids, and Jason's story is not for kids. And it's not like Red Hood can just gonna pop up as a supporting character. That's not really his story either.


Jason's story does not have to be the same in every medium. See Arkham Knight, where he does not die. He also could be Robin before his death.

Anyway, the animated TV show had kids dying in it. Like the girl with Batman on the swing set.

----------


## godisawesome

I think the issue with Jason is the same issue Tim has currently; most media adapatations have a creatively conservative bent (not in the political sense but in the "playing it safe" way) and will regard "excess" legacy characters as threatening to the audience's "simple minds." That's not to say they don't see the value in the characters, but that instead they tend to follow a formula: Dick Grayson gets a free pass either as Robin or graduated as Nightwing, than we immediately skip to whichever Robin best suits our purposes.

BTNAS Tim, as an amalgamation of Jason and Tim, kind of set the rule by simply combining the two successors into one. Then , YJ used Tim because he's the perfect "demonstrate that significant time has passed, Dick has lost people, and his new successor is mellow" characters. UTRH ignored Tim to focus the story on Jason. The new movies have used Damian mostly out of synergy.

 Arkham Knight botching the Robins might have hurt them a bit. That game could have worked as a prove of concept for all the boys in a single appearance if they hadn't screwed up Tim (and Jason a bit, though less so) and ignored how their interactions could have fleshed out all three boys; Dick could show the "dutiful son" trope to Jason's prodigal, and Tim and Jason would act well to gauge Jason's self-control and feelings of being replaced.

----------


## Aioros22

TAS Robin isn`t Tim. Is there any real characteristic of his aside of the name presented in the character? None that I recall. Everything, down to his origin, personality and his last encounter with the Joker are all part of Jason`s mythos. 

And that was a dark story in a show aimed for all audiences.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> TAS Robin isn`t Tim. Is there any real characteristic of his aside of the name presented in the character? None that I recall. Everything, down to his origin, personality and his last encounter with the Joker are all part of Jason`s mythos. 
> 
> And that was a dark story in a show aimed for all audiences.


The fact that they basically had Jason in BTAS but chose to use Tim's name instead annoyed me. If they were giving him all of the trappings of Jason's mythos they could have at least kept his damned name as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Besides Under The Red Hood. How come Jason rarely pops up in animation form? Odd.


Blame that on the cyclical nature of animation. By commodity and because the higher ups rarely have interest on taking risks they tend to stick to the most classical iteration of the characters. In Batman's case, that means Bruce, Dick, Gordon, Alfred and maybe Barbara (I'd go so far to point Batman '66 as the reason of this configuration as well). Then you have the fact that Jason's story as the Red Hood requires of a considerable set up to work and most of the times they would rather skip it due time/budget constrains and that is without going on the fact killing a child would still raise a lot of eyebrows from the audience. 

BvS using Jason from the get go was a ballsy decision on its own.

Anyways, I found this on twitter and it made me laugh



https://twitter.com/wallyswest_/stat...06330984370176

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## Aahz

[QUOTE=godisawesome;3047547 UTRH ignored Tim to focus the story on Jason. [/QUOTE]But Tim also doesn't appear in the original comic. To include him they had either to change the story or to explain somehow why he wasn't in Gotham.


I still hope that thy are doing a Jason flashback in YJ (or alternate reality like "A world without Young Justice").

----------


## Aioros22

> The fact that they basically had Jason in BTAS but chose to use Tim's name instead annoyed me. If they were giving him all of the trappings of Jason's mythos they could have at least kept his damned name as well.


TPTB simply didn`t want to lose the potential comic fans who were reading the current depiction but I could care less. There`s _no_ Tim there save the name, it`s all Jason, so to me I count it as an animated appearance of his. The most "Tim" in him is virtually not attacking Batman when stealing the tires but as comic runs have shown us, that`s nothing particularly non-Jason either. 

Timm likely agrees since when directing UTRH, teen Jason gets to use that very costume again.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, and by the way  :Big Grin: 





I see what you did there Timmbo

----------


## Aahz

> Timm likely agrees since when directing UTRH, teen Jason gets to use that very costume again.


Timm was just a producer the director was Brandon Vietti.

The costumes are also not completely identical, the DCAU costume had short black sleeves.

----------


## Aioros22

They`re identical, what you mean is they aren't 100% drawn the same way. The DCAU Jay was also younger, not a teen. He just added sleeves when growing up. 

I stand corrected on the directing but funnily enough, it goes to the same circles. Vietti was _both_ director and storyboard artist in UTRH and was storyboard artist of the animated show. More funnily enough, he`s also directed "The Batman" whose comic was about to introduce Jason when it was canceled and is/was also producer of Young Justice.

----------


## adrikito

> Anyways, I found this on twitter and it made me laugh
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/wallyswest_/stat...06330984370176


I SAW THIS(not with red hood) MULTIPLE TIMES IN TUMBLR..

----------


## kiwiliko

> I SAW THIS(not with red hood) MULTIPLE TIMES IN TUMBLR..


This is just everywhere but admittedly one of the more fun memes I've seen.
Best one so far is still the same meme about DC trying to choose between killing another robin or letting Bruce have happy fulfilling relationships with his kids.

----------


## Aioros22

A nicely set list of feats done of Jason, aka Red Hood Todd, mostly of the reboot. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...zm&sh=fc8ee701

You gotta love one of the comments there, too. Precious tears for your delight.

----------


## The Whovian

That is cool!

----------


## Aioros22

A few comments are so shamesly defensive that you can`t help but enjoy it. 

- "Oh, Deathstroke`s healing was weaker and he wasn`t wearing his NTH armor!" -  That`s cool, if you read the fight, Jason wasn`t shooting for the kill anyway, something _Slade himself notes_ in the dialogue. 

- "Oh, Jason was totally beat against Cassandra" - Well, no sir. Jason notes later she can kick hard (obviously much, he`s quite heavier and the kick still sent him back) but was he down for or hurt by the kick? Couldn`t be that much, he was making snipe comments about an album he finds in the pile. When you consider that was the only actual hit she had and that Jason was especifically countering her reading ability on the set - including telling her that on her face, there`s no way anyone can say he didn`t won on points. Not to mention this is actually the _second_ round they had. In the the first he`s already shown having her at gunpoint in the busted bar. 

- "Oh, she held back!" - she didn`t want to kill him whereas he couldn`t care less, that`s obviously an advantage but was her goal getting beaten and possible killed? Nope, but winning _that_ fight she wasn`t. 

- "Oh, Dick Grayson strenght him efforteseeeely afterwards" - He did? You middle in a fight where you are not having a direct play and suddently grab one of the persons`s wrists that is up and about to strike  and get it off from the person about to be hit. That looks more leverage 101, nevermind a glauntlet with _blades out_ that can get stuck on a given platform, like oh, a table or a bar counter. 


Hoodlers education section, gents. Glad you dropped by.

----------


## Caivu

In fairness, whatever the case may be re: Cass vs Jason in B&RE, it's probably safe to say that's outdated now.

----------


## Aioros22

Until the next fight they have that`s what we got. 

But sure, it`s always outdated after it happens, the next fight is always different.

----------


## G-Potion

Outdated or not, every win and loss counts.

----------


## Caivu

> Outdated or not, every win and loss counts.


True, but I can't honestly see a win there for anyone. If for no other reasons than it was interrupted and not greatly mismatched.

----------


## Assam

> Outdated or not, every win and loss counts.


Jason vs Shiva, Tim vs Cass (OYL), both Prometheus and Deathstoke's manhandling's of the Justice League. I'm not gonna give my thoughts on the Jason v Cass fight AGAIN, but no, every match does not and should not count, at least when PIS is involved.

----------


## G-Potion

It's not like Jason hasn't had unfair loss either. But for debate's sake, you can't really say which ones should count or not, just based on your own metric. It wouldn't go anywhere.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s equally PIS when writers suddently forget Jason has a more extensive training curriculum than even Nigthwing despite the later being older and a smidge more experienced, which includes mystical martial arts, you know.

----------


## Assam

> It`s equally PIS when writers suddently forget Jason has a more extensive training curriculum than even Nigthwing despite the later being older and a smidge more experienced, which includes mystical martial arts, you know.


Just so I'm actually in the know, what IS this "Mystical martial arts All-Caste training" you guys are always bringing up exactly?

----------


## Aioros22

> True, but I can't honestly see a win there for anyone. If for no other reasons than it was interrupted and not greatly mismatched.


Anyone who knows me is aware I don`t consider it a definite case but by the time the second round was interrupted he was grabbing her by the troath with one hand and about to slash her with the other. First round had her on her knee with him pointing the gun at her in the busted bar. 

I know who looked the better.

----------


## Caivu

> Just so I'm actually in the know, what IS this "Mystical martial arts All-Caste training" you guys are always bringing up exactly?


Seconded. What exactly does it entail?

----------


## Aioros22

> Just so I'm actually in the know, what IS this "Mystical martial arts All-Caste training" you guys are always bringing up exactly?


The sec of ancient martial arts that Jason learned under Ducra and quasi-imortal assassins monks with abilities like warding himself against some (I mention some because it`s obviously not an absolute rule) evil, being able to fight blind and the use of the All-Blades which have been able to cut kriptonian level beings and being able to withstand something like Wonder Woman`s sword wielded by Supergirl on equal ground. As of Rebirth the Blades are powered by Jason`s own soul. 

If you add up Tynion`s run, the especific magical punch that Jason learns from Talia was subquently teached by Ducra, of which Talia couldn`t get it right because she`s an Al Ghul. 

Here`s a snip of Jason`s training with the monks

----------


## Aioros22

Here is the full page from which that panel is lifted. You can see that the Monks, besides being immortals (if not for the Untitled to curse them) had either some mystical or abnormal physical abilities

----------


## EMarie

> Just so I'm actually in the know, what IS this "Mystical martial arts All-Caste training" you guys are always bringing up exactly?


It depends on who's writing it. Tynion wrote it as Jason having mystical abilities like being able to pull the All Blades in energy form from his chest. It also dealt with him basically learning to punch the immortality out of the Untitled, who were ancient mystical bad guys. Tynion wrote Jason as fast learner that could learn moves just by watching others fight. I'm not a fan of Tynion's RHATO so I didn't like most of this take.

Lobdell has the All Blades as actual retractable copper swords and explained how they worked in the Who is Artemis arc although blood was originally used to make it more powerful. Jason cut himself to strength it. The All Caste were around for ages and at least a couple were around since caveman times. Jason once stated that nothing short of an alien invasion should be able to take them out. His training with them is usually described as brutal. The Acres of All where he trained is pretty trippy.

I'm not sure how much of the things we've seen Jason do under Lobdell are related to his training or if any of it has to so with "coming back different." Where Tynion did magic stuff Lobdell seems to imply Jason's body working differently. This is from on top of my head:

When Jason was under the influence of Venom once he claimed that he can sense his body at all times and knows whenever there's a change. Even though his mind was telling him one thing he knew what was happening and how the drug was affecting his blood pressure, etc.

Jason can see things others can't. Neither Kori or Roy could see Essence until she revealed herself but Jason could. He could also see his teacher's ghost. When Joker tried to use paralyzing toxins on Jason they didn't work which Jason credits the All Caste for. He's able to block out a H.I.V.E. member from entering his mind which he also claims is thanks to the All Caste training.

----------


## Alycat

Mystical training is all too often reason for out of the ass wins.or it sounds stupid like when Tynion wrote it. And sorry no not every fight should count because some things are so stupid and poorly written they should be ignored. I'm looking at  you Deathstroke beating the JL. Anyway, different writers see feats differently and will have whoever they want to win and fans will complain.

----------


## Aioros22

If Tynion wrote it plainly magical, Loedbell wrote it plainly mystical. It all boils down to the same essence (Ha!), it`s not the comic book real world martial arts that most batties tend to learn. The abilities of the All Caste have shown to be both physical and mental. In Tynion`s run Jason could both see and fight ghosts with the All Blades, which among other things could also fire blasts. 

On top of that, at least under Tynion, Jason also trained under LOA with Shiva and Tiger, altho it was brief (pretty much until Talia takes him to Ducra). 

Annd if you look at Pre Flashpoint he also had both LOA training and a financed martial arts bootcamp with selected teachers all over the world just as Bruce did, except in Jason`s case depending if the teacher was a rapist or part of a child`s trade guild, he would kill them after learning everything they could teach. 

Discounting Cassandra Cain herself and JPV because ST Dumas is cray cray and also boderline science fiction, I have a hard time thinking of a battie with this ammount of curriculum and brutal training.

----------


## Aioros22

> Mystical training is all too often reason for out of the ass wins.or it sounds stupid like when Tynion wrote it. And sorry no not every fight should count because some things are so stupid and poorly written they should be ignored. I'm looking at  you Deathstroke beating the JL. Anyway, different writers see feats differently and will have whoever they want to win and fans will complain.


Sure enough but nobody bats an eye at Kun Lun or Daredevil`s The Chaste. This is the same trope.

----------


## G-Potion

Im not saying every fight should count because they are valid, rather they should because nobody can ever agree on this matter. Also, case in point, few of you guys here were already insisting on the Jason/Cass fight being invalid, and it turned out you guys didn't know enough about Jason' training. Not saying Aioros explaining things will change your minds, just that discounting things like you had doesn't make it fairer.

----------


## Alycat

> Sure enough but nobody bats an eye at Kun Lun or Daredevil`s The Chaste. This is the same trope.


 I feel like those two groups are more consistent if that makes any sense.




> Im not saying every fight should count because they are valid, rather they should because nobody can ever agree on this matter. Also, case in point, few of you guys here were already insisting on the Jason/Cass fight being invalid, and it turned out you guys didn't know enough about Jason' training. Not saying Aioros explaining things will change your minds, just that discounting things like you had doesn't make it fairer.


I mean that Cass fight is a huge example of being perfectly invalid if someone wants to because we know Cass wasn't fighting to kill or hurt him. Cass is better fighter hand to hand than all of them in the family, mystical training or not. Or she should be.

----------


## Assam

> Im not saying every fight should count because they are valid, rather they should because nobody can ever agree on this matter. Also, case in point, few of you guys here were already insisting on the Jason/Cass fight being invalid, and it turned out you guys didn't know enough about Jason' training. Not saying Aioros explaining things will change your minds, just that discounting things like you had doesn't make it fairer.


Just for the record, and I'm not saying you're implying this, aside from one instance VERY early on in my time here (And I said a LOT of stupid crap in my early days here; blame my meds) I don't think I've ever discounted the magical training, specifically because I didn't know the details. In all other discussions about the Cass/Jason fight, I've simply explained why I don't feel what was shown on the page to be a clear win for Jay,

----------


## G-Potion

> I feel like those two groups are more consistent if that makes any sense.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean that Cass fight is a huge example of being perfectly invalid if someone wants to because we know Cass wasn't fighting to kill or hurt him. Cass is better fighter hand to hand than all of them in the family, mystical training or not. Or she should be.


Don't want to stay long for this kind of debate, but I'll say not intending to kill doesn't make one sudddenly incapable of defending. As it ends, she was seen struggling and about to get a killing blow. 

Now if this is invalid because Cass is the better fighter and shouldnt lose once in a while or ever, then I simply don't agree. Losing happens to even the best in real life with million factors bringing it about, doesn't bring their 'tier' down. Same applies to comics, otherwise it woild be utterly boring.

----------


## Aioros22

> I feel like those two groups are more consistent if that makes any sense


And they are. They have been around since the late 70`s. 

It also helps that Miller was unanimously considered a pioneer in the form whereas Loedbell isn`t regarded in the same light, so his run isn`t as iconic a toy for his tropes to be used everywhere else. That doesn`t make it bad writting or bad development. The All Caste and Ducra is almost bar none one the finest adittions to Jason Todd`s mythos. 

Despite how older it is, Kun Lun has only been really explored outside the Iron Fist stories in the last 15 years give or take. The All Caste is too young. 




> I mean that Cass fight is a huge example of being perfectly invalid if someone wants to because we know Cass wasn't fighting to kill or hurt him. Cass is better fighter hand to hand than all of them in the family, mystical training or not. Or she should be.


I don`t see it that way and I`ll tell you why. It not even PIS, is the writting team wanting the whole cake and eat it. This is the presenting of Cass in the new universe but they made a huge mistake in having her manhandling Dick. It`s not about killing either, in Lost Days Jason also mentions how training to kill is different than what Batman taught him but the lack of it didn`t made him unable or a bad figther. Further proof of that is Jason easily handling several LOA ninja in a comatose state with just the training he took from Batman. 

So, killing gives you an advantage. That`s it. 

For whatever reason despite favoritisms, Jason actually has few definite loses outside his book and here they played him that way. They tried to save some face for Cass when _after_ the fight they have Dick mention she never wanted to hurt or beat them but that falls flat _because_ we saw her manhandling Dick Grayson _without_ killing him and that was the mistake. With that fight in mind, how far can you go with the holding back thing when you also happen to know that getting possibly killed or beaten wasn`t art of _her_ plan? 

I also don`t see why her training _should_ be better than any given training other than grounds of a former status quo. Sure that`s game but Jason wasn`t even back for the time she was doing that, so it`s equally fair. Her main asset relied on having abnormal fast reactions and a body reading ability that enabled her to predict movements. In this case, the writers made especific that Jason could somehow counter it *due* to an equally similar training background.

----------


## G-Potion

> Just for the record, and I'm not saying you're implying this, aside from one instance VERY early on in my time here (And I said a LOT of stupid crap in my early days here; blame my meds) I don't think I've ever discounted the magical training, specifically because I didn't know the details. In all other discussions about the Cass/Jason fight, I've simply explained why I don't feel what was shown on the page to be a clear win for Jay,


Sorry to make you think I pointed at you. I actually didnt know what your take on the fight was since I avoided this topic whenever it came up before. I'm against dismissing this fight as if it's not canon anymore. I'm perfecly fine with you feeling it wasn't a definite win for Jason. It wasn't. I just happened to think it ended where Jason had the upper hand.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The All Caste training doesn't ward Jason against evil, it made him highly resistant to mind control and illusions and according to Ducra it turned him into the best assassin in the world.

Another thing, pre FP Jason didn't got training from the LOA. The whole Lost Days was about Talia sending him away to avoid precisely that.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s my take, hence why I say "he won on points". 

Two rounds and he was the one with the upper hand. Easy peachy. Next fight in RATHO of they happen to clash might go totally the other direction.

----------


## Aioros22

슨부님/ㅁ\


咎

----------


## Aioros22

"Speak no evil"


P4背后注意啦-Seventhwing

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## kiwiliko

Always so impressed by all the batfam artists can can draw Jason so casually. This boys armour and sheer amount of guns on him are a pain in the butt to draw and this isn't even touching on the Arkham knight outfits. Real kudos to everyone.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Where's the Annual's preview DC?

----------


## Alycat

> Where's the Annual's preview DC?


This. Please don't tell me it's one of those day before ones. So annoying.

----------


## G-Potion

Tfw all the teases you got from Kirkham are the actual preview.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

When is it out, this Wendnesday?

----------


## Alycat

> When is it out, this Wendnesday?


Yep.  Those Kirkham teases were nice but they had no words  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

So the last few pages have a lot of All Caste talk which reminded me that I had an old Acres of All fanart that needed some brushing-up. It's done now. I'll look at it for a bit to see if it's all good then share later.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

Jason comes home to the Acres of All. Drew this with my optical mouse some months ago and fixed it with my tablet today.  :Cool:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> The All Caste training doesn't ward Jason against evil, it made him highly resistant to mind control and illusions and according to Ducra it turned him into the best assassin in the world.
> 
> Another thing, pre FP Jason didn't got training from the LOA. The whole Lost Days was about Talia sending him away to avoid precisely that.


I think they are referring to when Jason was a walking vegetable when he trained with the LOA.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I personally don't see how Cass, Damien, or Tim could beat Jason in a fight. They can have all the skill they want, but the fact of the matter is that they are fighting a guy who has at least 75 pounds on them, and has a high martial arts pedigree. 

I also think that he can take Nightwing. It would be a lot closer, but I still give it to Jason.

----------


## Caivu

> I personally don't see how Cass, Damien, or Tim could beat Jason in a fight. They can have all the skill they want, but the fact of the matter is that they are fighting a guy who has at least 75 pounds on them, and has a high martial arts pedigree.


Cass, at the least, is faster than he is and just about as strong despite weighing a lot less.

----------


## Alycat

> I personally don't see how Cass, Damien, or Tim could beat Jason in a fight. They can have all the skill they want, but the fact of the matter is that they are fighting a guy who has at least 75 pounds on them, and has a high martial arts pedigree. 
> 
> I also think that he can take Nightwing. It would be a lot closer, but I still give it to Jason.


Why are you applying real world logic to this?  In this case they couldn't win most of their fights not just against Jason.

----------


## Caivu

> Why are you applying real world logic to this?  In this case they couldn't win most of their fights not just against Jason.


This is a good point. Pretty much every single Batfamily member has kicked the ass of at least one person who has outweighed them by triple digits.

----------


## Aioros22

> Cass, at the least, is faster than he is and just about as strong despite weighing a lot less.


I think you`re trying to say that her skill far exceeds the limitations of her physical stats which I concur and not that she`s as physically as strong.

----------


## Assam

> I think you`re trying to say that her skill far exceeds the limitations of her physical stats which I concur *and not that she`s as physically as strong.*


I always see this in vs forums and I really hate that people get this idea. Cass has broken through bullet proof glass, punched through concrete walls, and has knocked out super strong metahumans, Batman telling her to hit as hard as it would take to shatter a normal human skull. 

People seem to think that just because she's smaller, she's simply faster and more skilled than the others, but her strength is on par with anyone else's in the Family. 

And yes, the idea that real world factors like size matter is ridiculous. You wanna say that one character shouldn't be able to beat another because of their size or sex (I REALLY hate it when people try to bring sex into this)? OK, but then you should also be calling BS on ANY of these people lasting more than a week doing what they do. 

We all at least heard about Merryweather vs McGregor, right? *Stephanie Brown*  based on her feats would beat both of them to a bloody pulp, and would likely do the same to any other real world fighter. "Normal" DC humans just operate on an entirely different level than real people.

----------


## Aioros22

> The All Caste training doesn't ward Jason against evil, it made him highly resistant to mind control and illusions and according to Ducra it turned him into the best assassin in the world.


I`m not counting only what Loedbell wrote, tho I`m aware that in all fairness he`s the main interest being the creator of the All-Caste. 




> Another thing, pre FP Jason didn't got training from the LOA. The whole Lost Days was about Talia sending him away to avoid precisely that.


Talia`s purpose was for Jason to build his own path and sent him in that direction but this is after Ras disagrees with Jason staying further because in his words, he was a curse unleashed upon the world, including to them. Ducra under Loedbell says the same thing to Talia but contrary to Ras that gives her the purpose to throughly train Jason. Regardless, the financing comes from Talia that comes from the LOA. She`s hardly independent from their resources in the context in the story.

Plus, the snips about him kicking LOA ninja in training sessions.

----------


## Caivu

> I think you`re trying to say that her skill far exceeds the limitations of her physical stats which I concur and not that she`s as physically as strong.


No, that's not what I meant. She's very close to the other Bats in terms of strength despite being one of the physically smallest.

----------


## Aioros22

> I always see this in vs forums and I really hate that people get this idea. Cass has broken through bullet proof glass, punched through concrete walls, and has knocked out super strong metahumans, Batman telling her to hit as hard as it would take to shatter a normal human skull. 
> 
> People seem to think that just because she's smaller, she's simply faster and more skilled than the others, but her strength is on par with anyone else's in the Family. 
> 
> And yes, the idea that real world factors like size matter is ridiculous. You wanna say that one character shouldn't be able to beat another because of their size or sex (I REALLY hate it when people try to bring sex into this)? OK, but then you should also be calling BS on ANY of these people lasting more than a week doing what they do. 
> 
> We all at least heard about Merryweather vs McGregor, right? *Stephanie Brown*  based on her feats would beat both of them to a pulp, and would likely do the same to any real world fighter. "Normal" DC humans just operate on an entirely different level than real people.


I`m not saying she isn`t strong or quite strong for her size or that comic book vigilantes aren`t quite above real life standards or physical limitations. Obviously they are. That`s part of the trope. 

I`m saying I don`t believe her to be _as_ physically strong as _Jason_. RATHO first begins with him punching throught a submarine hull to get out of a nuclear explosion underwater, of which he gets out alive. But sure, I`m not expecting most writers to care as much so it wouldn`t surprise me if she ever knocks him out with just a punch. 

Would that actually happen, tho? That`s just _my_ opinion, you`ll have yours.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Jason comes home to the Acres of All. Drew this with my optical mouse some months ago and fixed it with my tablet today.


Goddamn this is good stuff, you have any art blogs or social media for this? I'd follow if you did.
Even more awesome although this makes me doubt your sanity you drew this with an optic mouse. Ever since I saw the background art during all of Jasons training with LoA I've always wondered if anyone else appreciated how merticulously detailed and overall gorgeous it was, I love that you caught that feeling with your bg too.

Also yes, I will darn well quote this image into newest post because cool jason art > the millionth batfam skill rank debate

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Cass, at the least, is faster than he is and just about as strong despite weighing a lot less.


There is no way she is as strong or even near.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Why are you applying real world logic to this?  In this case they couldn't win most of their fights not just against Jason.


Sorry for being too vague. I was talking in a strict sense. No gadgets or anything else that gives you an advantage. Just physical ability. 

And why does it matter that I apply real world logic to something? I know it's a comic book, but that doesn't mean it can't be somewhat realistic.

----------


## Assam

> There is no way she is as strong or even near.


I already listed a few of her strength feats. And there are more where they came from. 




> I know it's a comic book, but that doesn't mean it can't be somewhat realistic.


True, but this is a DC SUPERHERO comic (s) and THAT means it can't be somewhat realistic.

----------


## Alycat

> There is no way she is as strong or even near.


 Why not?




> Sorry for being too vague. I was talking in a strict sense. No gadgets or anything else that gives you an advantage. Just physical ability. 
> 
> And why does it matter that I apply real world logic to something? I know it's a comic book, but that doesn't mean it can't be somewhat realistic.


Because it's not even close to somewhat realistic. That's what's amazing about Cass. She has all this strength, speed, and skill without being a meta but looks like a small girl. That's what's impressive about Batman as well . Real world logic is too finicky to apply and to believe that Batfamily has a chance in the first place requires a level of letting go of your disbelief, which your not doing when it comes to Cass.

----------


## magpieM

> Jason comes home to the Acres of All. Drew this with my optical mouse some months ago and fixed it with my tablet today.


So refreshing... Great art!!

----------


## Godlike13

> Because it's not even close to somewhat realistic. That's what's amazing about Cass. She has all this strength, speed, and skill without being a meta but looks like a small girl. That's what's impressive about Batman as well . Real world logic is too finicky to apply and to believe that Batfamily has a chance in the first place requires a level of letting go of your disbelief, which your not doing when it comes to Cass.


There's a line. We don't see Batman bench pressing cars, and there is a reason why terms like meta human exist in DC's world.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Awesome  :Big Grin:  I really enjoy the way you make the colors pop! Are you doing more Jason/Outlaws related work?

----------


## Assam

> There's a line. We don't see Batman bench pressing cars, and there is a reason why terms like meta human exist in DC's world.


I love how that's the analogy you make simply because Batman HAS held up a sarcophagus...which tend to weigh the same amount as a car.

----------


## Assam

> Jason comes home to the Acres of All. Drew this with my optical mouse some months ago and fixed it with my tablet today.


Beautiful work, mate!

----------


## Godlike13

> I love how that's the analogy you make simply because Batman HAS held up a sarcophagus...which tend to weigh the same amount as a car.


Maybe they do, maybe they don't, regardless my point still stands that limits do exist in the world DC created. A non meta human 90 pound teenager being as strong as someone Jason's size and build is silly. Even in DC's universe. Not too mention, what does that say about characters like Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> There's a line. We don't see Batman bench pressing cars, and there is a reason why terms like meta human exist in DC's world.


Just because he's not bench pressing cars doesn't mean he doesn't often do other ridiculous things that may as well be super human.

----------


## G-Potion

> Goddamn this is good stuff, you have any art blogs or social media for this? I'd follow if you did.
> Even more awesome although this makes me doubt your sanity you drew this with an optic mouse. Ever since I saw the background art during all of Jasons training with LoA I've always wondered if anyone else appreciated how merticulously detailed and overall gorgeous it was, I love that you caught that feeling with your bg too.


Yeee thank you for the lovely comment and for your interest as well. I used to be active on DeviantArt, where I mostly drew stuff from Final Fantasy VIII and the Chinese show Bao Qing Tian. The page is still there at https://thiencna.deviantart.com/.

For future Jason arts, I'll post here as well as my tumblr.




> Also yes, I will darn well quote this image into newest post because cool jason art > the millionth batfam skill rank debate


Haha, I swear we already had the same debate just some pages ago. Now it's back again. This can be tiring.

----------


## G-Potion

> So refreshing... Great art!!


A lot of water is basically my idea for the background. Thank you!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Assam

> Haha, I swear we already had the same debate just some pages ago. Now it's back again. This can be tiring.


Even _I'm_ tired of it. Unfortunately, I have this problem where if I see someone saying something wrong or bad about Cass (Or most characters I care about), I feel the need to respond. I know that's the case for a lot of people, but with me, I genuinely can't stop thinking about it until I've said something. Yes, I'm aware this is a problem.

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> Awesome  I really enjoy the way you make the colors pop! Are you doing more Jason/Outlaws related work?


You bet! I already have in mind what I'm drawing next. Just letting it stew in my head for some time first.

----------


## G-Potion

> Beautiful work, mate!


Thanks, Assam!  :Embarrassment: 




> Even I'm tired of it. Unfortunately, I have this problem where if I see someone saying something wrong or bad about Cass (Or most characters I care about), I feel the need to respond. I know that's the case for a lot of people, but with me, I genuinely can't stop thinking about it until I've said something. Yes, I'm aware this is a problem.


I know what you mean. It's the only reason I say anything regarding this debate at all. Though I just don't have the energy to keep it going, and Aioros22 is doing a stellar job saying what I want to say anyway.

----------


## Aahz

> Also yes, I will darn well quote this image into newest post because cool jason art > the millionth batfam skill rank debate


But unfortunatly these debates want go away, if his skills written as inconsistently and are kept as poorly defined as they are now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But unfortunatly these debates want go away, if his skills written as inconsistently and are kept as poorly defined as they are now.


I don't think really think the problem is that Jason's skills are poorly defined. I think its more that the writers who use him outside of his main book are lazy and just don't bother do research beforehand because they are only using him for a few issues. And its not just Jason's character who suffers from this laziness either. I've seen several OOC moments with various characters and cases were writers just plain regress a character for their own ends.

Also @G: Nice art there.

----------


## Aioros22

> Just because he's not bench pressing cars doesn't mean he doesn't often do other ridiculous things that may as well be super human.


True, the line is very thin, on the other hand he`s right. Despite what Batman is able to do he`s never considered within the frame of the DCU "rules" to be a meta.

----------


## Alycat

> True, the line is very thin, on the other hand he`s right. Despite what Batman is able to do he`s never considered within the frame of the DCU "rules" to be a meta.


Well, minus that tiny Suicide Squad incident that had people freaking out.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think really think the problem is that Jason's skills are poorly defined. I think its more that the writers who use him outside of his main book are lazy and just don't bother do research beforehand because they are only using him for a few issues. And its not just Jason's character who suffers from this laziness either. I've seen several OOC moments with various characters and cases were writers just plain regress a character for their own ends.


But most the other bat-charcters have usually at least a few skills were it is quite established that they are the best, and this is also quite often acknowledged by other characters, Jason doesn't really have that.

----------


## Alycat

> Jason comes home to the Acres of All. Drew this with my optical mouse some months ago and fixed it with my tablet today.


This is beautiful

----------


## kiwiliko

> But most the other bat-charcters have usually at least a few skills were it is quite established that they are the best, and this is also quite often acknowledged by other characters, Jason doesn't really have that.


Even just as a marketting gimick I have disagreements with trying to give everyone their own "special skill" attribute at this point. At best it causes overall misconceptions or just tendency for fans to box every character to a stereotyped fighting role when really their individual runs are meant to flesh out and tell stories about said character. At worst, it seems to encourage bad writer habits to default to a batfamily members "boxed" role especially in group stories and since every character MUST represent a single skill/trait, clearly lists must also be made so a writer can rank these roles for personal preferences *coughtomkingcough*

Giving characters of a large and well know group (batfam) their little standout abilities can certainly be awesome if done well but unfortunately I have very little faith (particularly in batman group writers) for DC to be an example of this done well.

If its a specialty you want for jason tho, I have been getting the vibe that DC seems to be pushing Jasons specialty to be weapons use. Marksman is a new label for his role in the annual, much of rhato vol.1 was him fiddling alien guns and making explosions with roy, injustice jason custom makes his own bullet/bombs and Talias sponsored happy murder shopping spree for Jasons post resurrect training featured a lot of his education in poisons etc...
Curious if any of you agree with me on this.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I still can't suspend belief to the point where teenage, 150 pounds at the most, kids can take on fully grown, elite level athlete and fighter adults in fight.

----------


## Caivu

> I still can't suspend belief to the point where teenage, 150 pounds at the most, kids can take on fully grown, elite level athlete and fighter adults in fight.


Why, though? It's no more or less unrealistic than anything else the Batfamily's done.

----------


## G-Potion

> Giving characters of a large and well know group (batfam) their little standout abilities can certainly be awesome if done well but unfortunately I have very little faith (particularly in batman group writers) for DC to be an example of this done well.
> 
> If its a specialty you want for jason tho, I have been getting the vibe that DC seems to be pushing Jasons specialty to be weapons use. Marksman is a new label for his role in the annual, much of rhato vol.1 was him fiddling alien guns and making explosions with roy, injustice jason custom makes his own bullet/bombs and Talias sponsored happy murder shopping spree for Jasons post resurrect training featured a lot of his education in poisons etc...
> Curious if any of you agree with me on this.


I'd like to see him utilize more from his explosion and poison expertise. The later would be rather hard as he's not killing anyone atm. Though, if there's a specialty that I'd want him to be defined with, I'd want to go with the mystical arts since it's the most unique among the Batfam.

----------


## G-Potion

> I still can't suspend belief to the point where teenage, 150 pounds at the most, kids can take on fully grown, elite level athlete and fighter adults in fight.


I feel _very_ offended when genius kids can take on fully grown masters. It's disrespecting the time and experience that the adults have over them, as if a lifetime training suddenly means nothing. Talent or not. Practice and experience are the key.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is beautiful


Thanks, Aly!  :Embarrassment: 




> Also @G: Nice art there.


Thanksss!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Alycat

> I still can't suspend belief to the point where teenage, 150 pounds at the most, kids can take on fully grown, elite level athlete and fighter adults in fight.


But why not? So most of. The batfam shouldn't win fights or anything?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Why, though? It's no more or less unrealistic than anything else the Batfamily's done.


I feel like it's less an issue of realistic or not because we know DCs idea of normal human is most definitely an elevated estimation of average human ability. But the thing is that means characters that act as trainers and mentors are also bound by by these same elevated rules too and sometimes its when a clearly inexperienced DC student completely overpowering an established DC trainer character that becomes an issue. In context of the story, a character can still act unrealistic by DC universe standards.

ie: we know Dami is 13 but also that his growth was sped up to cover that amount in about 8? years to shorten timelines. Also knowing that Dami is raised from birth through his baby/infant stages and waaay pushing children learning abilities, if we assume his heavy training started at age 4 he really has gone through about 4-6 years of consistent training at best. Pushing 13 yr old Dami to be a stronger character than dick/jason or elevating him to bruce level ability would be unreal within DC universe because all three of these characters have more years of both training and experience despite that we can say all batfam members are unrealistic to our world.

Not disagreeing with your statement but I do admit DCs normal human standards can be a pain to assess.

----------


## G-Potion

I just saw this post on tumblr. Nice observation and props to Rocksteady if it's intentional. Video clip in the post since I've no idea how to embed it here.

----------


## G-Potion

> I feel like it's less an issue of realistic or not because we know DCs idea of normal human is most definitely an elevated estimation of average human ability. But the thing is that means characters that act as trainers and mentors are also bound by by these same elevated rules too and sometimes its when a clearly inexperienced DC student completely overpowering an established DC trainer character that becomes an issue. In context of the story, a character can still act unrealistic by DC universe standards.
> 
> ie: we know Dami is 13 but also that his growth was sped up to cover that amount in about 8? years to shorten timelines. Also knowing that Dami is raised from birth through his baby/infant stages and waaay pushing children learning abilities, if we assume his heavy training started at age 4 he really has gone through about 4-6 years of consistent training at best. Pushing 13 yr old Dami to be a stronger character than dick/jason or elevating him to bruce level ability would be unreal within DC universe because all three of these characters have more years of both training and experience despite that we can say all batfam members are unrealistic to our world.
> 
> Not disagreeing with your statement but I do admit DCs normal human standards can be a pain to assess.


This right there. Well said.

----------


## Aahz

> If its a specialty you want for jason tho, I have been getting the vibe that DC seems to be pushing Jasons specialty to be weapons use. Marksman is a new label for his role in the annual,


Which is a conplete pointless role since is not allowed to really harm anyone with guns in Batfamily stories.

And at the moment most in Batfamily stories other Batfamily members can shine due to their established strength, while Jason is just used as punching bag. 

I also think that pushing the mystical magic art aspect, or at least letting him use more close combat weapons like his knife, would be a better option.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'd like to see him utilize more from his explosion and poison expertise. The later would be rather hard as he's not killing anyone atm. Though, if there's a specialty that I'd want him to be defined with, I'd want to go with the mystical arts since it's the most unique among the Batfam.


I don't think it would be all that difficult to have him utilize his expertise in poisons even now. If he so well versed in poisons then its highly likely that he is also well versed in their antidotes and that can be a nonlethal application of that skill that still shows off his expertise.

@Aahz: There is nothing wrong with Jason being the Marksman of the bat family IMO and guns are not the be all and end all for a extremely proficient marksman like Jason. There are lots of throwing weapons, like knives, out there for example as well as ranged weapons, like spears, were being a decent marksman is helpful. I do agree however that his skills in the mystical martial arts should be something that is highlighted and pushed because it is really a skill that is truly unique to him in the same way acrobatics is unique to Dick, or body reading is to Cass.

----------


## Godlike13

Acrobatics isn't unique to Dick. They all are obviously proficient in acrobatics. Just like they are all good fighters, and are smart, and are good at throwing shit, ect, ect. Im sorry but the practice of trying to play up general abilities and skills to try and created some distinction between them is just dumb and ultimately too superficial.
This is part of why Tim has struggled so mightily, oh he's he's the smart one, well guess what they are all smart. Oh but he's good at computers, um its 2017, who isn't? Being smart doesn't make Tim unique, just like Dick being good at flips isn't what makes him unique. They need to get away from these kind of superficial distinctions. They lean on the guns with Jason because its the most apparent thing that sets him apart from the others in the Bat family. Though i do agree, they become kind of pointless when he's not really allowed to really harm anyone with them in Batfamily stories.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think it would be all that difficult to have him utilize his expertise in poisons even now. If he so well versed in poisons then its highly likely that he is also well versed in their antidotes and that can be a nonlethal application of that skill that still shows off his expertise.



That's true. I thought of it too but honestly the chance of it happening is abysmally low. Much less if Jason would be the character to get that treatment. Really want to be proven wrong though. Healer!Jason is a thing I'd like to see.

----------


## Alycat

They need an expertise in fashion. It is lacking in that group and makes an effective weapon. There that can be Jason's niche.

----------


## G-Potion

It's already acknowledged in fandom.  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> Acrobatics isn't unique to Dick. They all are obviously proficient in acrobatics. Just like they are all good fighters, and are smart, and are good at throwing shit, ect, ect. Im sorry but the practice of trying to play up general abilities and skill to try and created some distinction between them is just dumb and ultimately too superficial.


The problem is that in Jason's case this is shown so little that it often feels almost ooc, if he uses these skills or does something cool.  And on top of this still has this stigmata that he died because he was not as good as Dick, that why I think they really need to highlight his skills more.

----------


## Aioros22

> Which is a conplete pointless role since is not allowed to really harm anyone with guns in Batfamily stories.
> 
> And at the moment most in Batfamily stories other Batfamily members can shine due to their established strength, while Jason is just used as punching bag. 
> 
> I also think that pushing the mystical magic art aspect, or at least letting him use more close combat weapons like his knife, would be a better option.


Your issue is thinking that "Marksman" is only a cool or uselful ability if it kills people. It simply means he`s the better aim among a group of people.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s not to say I don`t agree with you and godlike, he could be shown doing something else other than what you would expect like shooting and something related to knives/swords (pretty much anything related to aim). 

Acrobatics and (my personal preference) an escape artist set would do well the trick. The only issue would be childlike Bizarro thinking Jason could need his help and blow the cover which makes go back the more basic trait.

----------


## Aahz

> Your issue is thinking that "Marksman" is only a cool or uselful ability if it kills people.


Killing is not nessary, but as long as he isn't able to take out oponents (appart from mooks) by shooting them they are imo point less. And he is also hardly ever doing any cool trick shots.

Just compare what Jason does with his guns, with what for example Green Arrow, Captain Boomerang and Deadshot are doing with their weapons.

And I also don't think that they should reduce Jason just to a masks man, he more an al rounder like Deathstroke and not mainly a mask men like Deadshot.

----------


## Aioros22

He`s used a variety of blades and weapons in RATHO alone, his strategic maneuver plays a good deal of his actions (hence why he shoots sometimes it`s to set the opponent up) and even without killing when he wants or can, his shots have been said to have terrfic aim (I`m thinking his fight with Deathstroke, for example). Due to his background he`s also described as having abilities connected with escape and thef. 

Frankly, I think he`s been written as more maleable than Nigthwing.

----------


## Aahz

> He`s used a variety of blades and weapons in RATHO alone, his strategic maneuver plays a good deal of his actions (hence why he shoots sometimes it`s to set the opponent up) and even without killing when he wants or can, his shots have been said to have terrfic aim (I`m thinking his fight with Deathstroke, for example).


But ass soon at it gets serious his guns are usually completely use less (see just his recent fight against KGBeast).

----------


## Aioros22

He didn`t just use guns. He also used his taser and teamwork. 

I`d prefer if he used more stuff more often but this was too a small story to fit everything in.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Acrobatics isn't unique to Dick. They all are obviously proficient in acrobatics. Just like they are all good fighters, and are smart, and are good at throwing shit, ect, ect. Im sorry but the practice of trying to play up general abilities and skills to try and created some distinction between them is just dumb and ultimately too superficial.


What I meant and maybe wasn't clear enough about is that acrobatics is something that Dick is _known_for being extremely skilled at so much so that artists are always drawing him doing complicated sets of acrobatics whenever possible. It's very rare that acrobatics its mentioned in connection with other Robins even though they are just as skilled and their feats of acrobatics don't get as much page time either. I do however agree that using skills as a way to distinguish them from one other is a problem when writers then use those as the ONLY way to distinguish between them and then just keep shoving them in the same box EVERY time they are used. I don't think its the root problem though.




> This is part of why Tim has struggled so mightily, oh he's he's the smart one, well guess what they are all smart. Oh but he's good at computers, um its 2017, who isn't? Being smart doesn't make Tim unique, just like Dick being good at flips isn't what makes him unique. They need to get away from these kind of superficial distinctions. They lean on the guns with Jason because its the most apparent thing that sets him apart from the others in the Bat family. Though i do agree, they become kind of pointless when he's not really allowed to really harm anyone with them in Batfamily stories.


I think there is a distinction between being "not allowed" to use his guns to harm anyone in Batfamily stories (example: Bruce tells him flat out not to use them period.) versus his making a choice himself not to harm anyone with them (example: Jason making the conscious choice not to take lethal shots while working with the Bats). The only place he is "not allowed" to use them is in Gotham but everywhere else is fair game. I don't see what the problem is with that.

----------


## G-Potion

He ricocheted his bullets against Artemis's sword. Good stuff. Not the gun's fault Beast was like a brick wall. A knife or anything else wouldn't do better damage.

That said, I do want more gun/knife combo for Jason. Zoning and fast close range capabilities please.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah that was sweet. Does anyone know what the deal with the curent Beast is? Who used him before, Snyder? What happened? is he human, a cyborg what?

He looked Bane-ish brick level with quite the durable body armor. Even the gunshots at the head weren`t doing anything. Of course Jason didn`t use his gauntlets, or magical punches, or his swords, so..pretty standard fight there to sell the crossover. At least Bizarro and Artemis were the ones to save the day.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah that was sweet. Does anyone know what the deal with the curent Beast is? Who used him before, Snyder? What happened? is he human, a cyborg what?
> 
> He looked Bane-ish brick level with quite the durable body armor. Even the gunshots at the head weren`t doing anything. Of course Jason didn`t use his gauntlets, or magical punches, or his swords, so..pretty standard fight there to sell the crossover. At least Bizarro and Artemis were the ones to save the day.


Pretty sure it was Snyder. Did he mention upgrades? He was in Grayson Future End as well but that wouldn't apply here.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah that was sweet. Does anyone know what the deal with the curent Beast is? Who used him before, Snyder? What happened? is he human, a cyborg what?
> 
> He looked Bane-ish brick level with quite the durable body armor. Even the gunshots at the head weren`t doing anything. Of course Jason didn`t use his gauntlets, or magical punches, or his swords, so..pretty standard fight there to sell the crossover. At least Bizarro and Artemis were the ones to save the day.


I read the digital version with guided view on. Genuinely enjoyed the fight when you could only see one panel at a time, and there were a few instances it seemed like "yeah that was it" but the team kept persevering with awesome teamwork.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah that was sweet. Does anyone know what the deal with the curent Beast is? Who used him before, Snyder? What happened? is he human, a cyborg what?


he was iirc allways a Cyborg, Snyder even mentioned some stuff he had build in.

----------


## Aioros22

He mentioned he was upgraded to when giving the banter about being a free agent to Red Hood. Even without that, his performance alone warrants a couple upgrades. Chest taser that knocked out Batman and downed Artemis? Did nothing against his body armor. Ricocheted bullets to the head? Nothing. 

He was also taking a bit of punishment, altho he was already at disadvantage before Dick shows up.

----------


## G-Potion

Gold.  :Embarrassment: 



http://arkhamkjay.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aahz

> He mentioned he was upgraded to when giving the banter about being a free agent to Red Hood. Even without that, his performance alone warrants a couple upgrades. Chest taser that knocked out Batman and downed Artemis? Did nothing against his body armor. Ricocheted bullets to the head? Nothing.


But his fist had in the end a far bigger effect than the bullets.

You can proof me wrong bur I don't think that during the whole post rebirth run his guns had ever any effect, they usually just bounce of completely useless.

And as fun as the last panel of the fight was, I'm still waiting for Jason to  win a fight again a major opponent on his own in his own book.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But his fist had in the end a far bigger effect than the bullets.
> 
> You can proof me wrong bur I don't think that during the whole post rebirth run his guns had ever any effect, they usually just bounce of completely useless.
> 
> And as fun as the last panel of the fight was, I'm still waiting for Jason to  win a fight again a major opponent on his own in his own book.


-He used his guns to shoot the mayor of Gotham with the antidote to Black Mask's nanotech and while doing so it appeared that he had killed not only him but the officers around him so that's at least one time they weren't "useless". 

-To be honest most of the time though he's been shooting at people who are metas or who have lots of armoring so of course the bullets are going to bounce off them. I can't argue that his guns seem useless in that case but since they are always going to be useless in such a circumstance I find it silly to complain about it when its showing things in a realistic manner. Now if he had upgrades on his guns or special bullets that would be different but as far as I know his guns are just normal ones with normal bullets. (Seriously, though if he is going to be facing metas on a regular basis then he needs to upgrade his guns to compensate for their strengths. Same with armor.)

-So long as this is a team book his teammates will always have his back so he's never really fighting alone. That's just part of a team books set up so barring Bizarro and Artemis getting taken out (and honestly it might be difficult if not impossible for Jason, as a unpowered human, to deal with an enemy who can take both of them out) I don't see that ever happening.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I feel _very_ offended when genius kids can take on fully grown masters. It's disrespecting the time and experience that the adults have over them, as if a lifetime training suddenly means nothing. Talent or not. Practice and experience are the key.


Somebody who finally feels my pain.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Artemis, you stay away from Nightwing. Don't sink my ship!

----------


## kiwiliko

> I just saw this post on tumblr. Nice observation and props to Rocksteady if it's intentional. Video clip in the post since I've no idea how to embed it here.


Major props to design team for Arkham Knight. There's quite a few posts about the amazing amount of detail that went into this game as well as some of their models (I think a commenter mentioned model for Jason when viewed on an HD screen had small birthmarks you could see around the eyes).

Also for anyone who really likes Arkham verse, the commenter in the post Lananiscorner wrote almost 500K length of composite pieces to fill in the gaps of Jason's point of view throughout his torture under Joker and through the journey of gathering his army, designing and reproducing his own weaponry etc. It branches off into an continuation of life after the game ending and a redemption/healing stage for the knight. The author does frequent streams of gameplay always going back to catch new details like the hinted nerve damage and overall it is an amazingly well researched fanwork that I totally recommend  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Major props to design team for Arkham Knight. There's quite a few posts about the amazing amount of detail that went into this game as well as some of their models (I think a commenter mentioned model for Jason when viewed on an HD screen had small birthmarks you could see around the eyes).
> 
> Also for anyone who really likes Arkham verse, the commenter in the post Lananiscorner wrote almost 500K length of composite pieces to fill in the gaps of Jason's point of view throughout his torture under Joker and through the journey of gathering his army, designing and reproducing his own weaponry etc. It branches off into an continuation of life after the game ending and a redemption/healing stage for the knight. The author does frequent streams of gameplay always going back to catch new details like the hinted nerve damage and overall it is an amazingly well researched fanwork that I totally recommend


I have that fic on tab since forever. Alas I'm always too tired to read it whenever I'm home. But it is really one must-read fic from the little bits that I did read.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I have that fic on tab since forever. Alas I'm always too tired to read it whenever I'm home. But it is really one must-read fic from the little bits that I did read.


Definitely try it sometime you feel up for it. Was a monster of a read in all the best ways and his characterization was well done to remain true to both having the heart of Robin Jason but still showing how his trauma affected him to make the Knight. 

There's some very nice callbacks to Jason's love of learning while still connecting it to his healing.
*spoilers:*

The Jason in this fanwork is incredibly adept with mechanical design calling to a lot of canon Jason instances of customizing his own weapons. The spider bots from the game were interpreted to be maintence bots that were a result of his personal therapeutic project to make something that wasn't destructive with his own hands. Anyway the author does a much better job communicating his character but Barbs teases him for making the equivalent of a romba vacuum and the supporting characters similarly done very well.

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Alycat

> Major props to design team for Arkham Knight. There's quite a few posts about the amazing amount of detail that went into this game as well as some of their models (I think a commenter mentioned model for Jason when viewed on an HD screen had small birthmarks you could see around the eyes).
> 
> Also for anyone who really likes Arkham verse, the commenter in the post Lananiscorner wrote almost 500K length of composite pieces to fill in the gaps of Jason's point of view throughout his torture under Joker and through the journey of gathering his army, designing and reproducing his own weaponry etc. It branches off into an continuation of life after the game ending and a redemption/healing stage for the knight. The author does frequent streams of gameplay always going back to catch new details like the hinted nerve damage and overall it is an amazingly well researched fanwork that I totally recommend


Imma second this recommendation.  The author writes excellent fics. I so wish we got one more Arkham game with the whole family.

----------


## G-Potion

I have a day off. Should I draw or read this monster?  :Confused: 

Also. One thing definitely makes me happy is the rise of gen Jason fics recently. So many quality fics there.

----------


## Aahz

> -He used his guns to shoot the mayor of Gotham with the antidote to Black Mask's nanotech and while doing so it appeared that he had killed not only him but the officers around him so that's at least one time they weren't "useless".


But that wasn't really a fight.




> -To be honest most of the time though he's been shooting at people who are metas or who have lots of armoring so of course the bullets are going to bounce off them. I can't argue that his guns seem useless in that case but since they are always going to be useless in such a circumstance I find it silly to complain about it when its showing things in a realistic manner. Now if he had upgrades on his guns or special bullets that would be different but as far as I know his guns are just normal ones with normal bullets. (Seriously, though if he is going to be facing metas on a regular basis then he needs to upgrade his guns to compensate for their strengths. Same with armor.)


But why is he than shooting instead of doing soething that is effective, the rest of the Batfamily also fights metas and usually without guns.




> -So long as this is a team book his teammates will always have his back so he's never really fighting alone. That's just part of a team books set up so barring Bizarro and Artemis getting taken out (and honestly it might be difficult if not impossible for Jason, as a unpowered human, to deal with an enemy who can take both of them out) I don't see that ever happening.


You can for example have multiple opponents or split the team,that was kind of standard in classic Justice League books.

And it may be a team book, but he is the main character, so he get once in a while his big moment to shine. And that happens way to rare in Lobdells run.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I have a day off. Should I draw or read this monster? 
> 
> Also. One thing definitely makes me happy is the rise of gen Jason fics recently. So many quality fics there.


Why not both?  :Stick Out Tongue: 
And as a sucker for any fic showing some good love for Jason  I'll join you. Got an art idea for this author's Jason and I'm definitely feeling some kintsugi vibes lately.

----------


## G-Potion

> Why not both? 
> And as a sucker for any fic showing some good love for Jason  I'll join you. Got an art idea for this author's Jason and I'm definitely feeling some kintsugi vibes lately.


Well if that's not a good dose of motivation.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Don't forget to post here as well once you've finished it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But that wasn't really a fight.


I was being tongue in cheek there mostly. But you said his guns were ineffectual and that was one instance when they weren't and technically it was a fight. The police were shooting at him and he was returning fire.  




> But why is he than shooting instead of doing soething that is effective, the rest of the Batfamily also fights metas and usually without guns.


Yes, the other Bats do fight metas and without guns but the weapons that they use oftentimes are their signature ones and for Jason that means guns, not the typical batarangs and so forth. Also there are times when even the Bats weapons bounce off the target for a varying degree of reasons just as happens with Jason's guns so I don't really see the difference in an actual fight against a meta. What does tend to happen though is that when one of the Bats, particularly Batman, fights a meta there is a tendency for the writer to overpower the character in question just so they can wipe the floor with a meta once in a while. That simply doesn't happen all that often with Jason and frankly I think it adds a bit of realism to the character and the world he inhabits that the other Bat titles can sometimes lack. 




> You can for example have multiple opponents or split the team,that was kind of standard in classic Justice League books.


I think that's more a factor of the the number of people on the team more than anything else. Books like JL and Titans have more members on the team then RHATO does so splitting up the team makes more sense in order to give various characters times to shine although not all books do that very well at all. (Looking at you Titans)Also just because those teams split up for a fight it doesn't necessarily follow that they won't also move to cover another teammate when they see that teammate in trouble, which is something that happens in RHATO. Again I see little difference between the two. 

Also Jason, up until the reboot, hadn't had much experience with teams minus a very brief tenure with the Teen Titans or with making a lot of friends minus his time partnered up with Scarlet so they are giving him that chance now. They are going to want to properly build up the relationship between these three and one of the ways to do that is to show that they have each others backs in a fight. They are going to need to develop those relationships organically so that they have a strong foundation going forward. Doing that takes time. Just something to think about.  




> And it may be a team book, but he is the main character, so he get once in a while his big moment to shine. And that happens way to rare in Lobdells run.


We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I think he's had plenty of moments to shine across the entirety of Lobdell's run and I also don't think his moments to shine have to necessarily equate with him defeating some enemy or beating the snot out of an opponent or killing them. YMMV on that last bit.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also Jason, up until the reboot, hadn't had much experience with teams minus a very brief tenure with the Teen Titans or with making a lot of friends minus his time partnered up with Scarlet so they are giving him that chance now. They are going to want to properly build up the relationship between these three and one of the ways to do that is to show that they have each others backs in a fight. They are going to need to develop those relationships organically so that they have a strong foundation going forward. Doing that takes time. Just something to think about.


This makes me think back on how Jason has evolved in working together with a team. I think the annual really highlights the coordination between the new Outlaws as much better than his previous team, and so much so that Beast also commented on it. I enjoyed how fluently they take turn getting in and out of the fight to support the others as well as to gain the surprise factor on Beast. I don't remember seeing it as clearly with the last Outlaws.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> This makes me think back on how Jason has evolved in working together with a team. I think the annual really highlights the coordination between the new Outlaws as much better than his previous team, and so much so that Beast also commented on it. I enjoyed how fluently they take turn getting in and out of the fight to support the others as well as to gain the surprise factor on Beast. I don't remember seeing it as clearly with the last Outlaws.


Yeah, that was a problem with the last team and again I think its because of the way the relationship between the three of them is being slowly developed over time. The team seems more cohesive and in tune with each other then the last one.

----------


## magpieM

> I just saw this post on tumblr. Nice observation and props to Rocksteady if it's intentional. Video clip in the post since I've no idea how to embed it here.


Well AK contains a lot of details. I watched how other gamers played it. When Batman was gliding in the sky, you can hear those bad guys on the ground talking nonsense, randomly commenting their bosses and of course cursing Batman. But one of the dialogues seemed very out of place. A street thug said something to himself like: "...Today is Halloween. I promised my son to buy him a toy before I left home..."

These words suddenly jumped into my mind when I spotted the scene in the RHATO Annual that Jason and his father sat in the circus, enjoying some happy time. It sounds silly but it suddenly got me in my feelings. Like what Jason said in the rebirth, nothing good lasts forever. You know that those good moments will shortly turn into darkness, sadness and pain, and nothing can change it.

Now I'm really anxious about those letters sent from Gotham City Jail. Wondering what Willis would say to his son...

----------


## G-Potion

> Well AK contains a lot of details. I watched how other gamers played it. When Batman was gliding in the sky, you can hear those bad guys on the ground talking nonsense, randomly commenting their bosses and of course cursing Batman. But one of the dialogues seemed very out of place. A street thug said something to himself like: "...Today is Halloween. I promised my son to buy him a toy before I left home..."
> 
> These words suddenly jumped into my mind when I spotted the scene in the RHATO Annual that Jason and his father sat in the circus, enjoying some happy time. It sounds silly but it suddenly got me in my feelings. Like what Jason said in the rebirth, nothing good lasts forever. You know that those good moments will shortly turn into darkness, sadness and pain, and nothing can change it.


That's a very good connection there. It's like what you said, both this thug and Willis, who are considered "bad guys" can still have moments of goodness or a good motivation. Seeing those moments while knowing how their fate would ultimately turn out is a bittersweet thing.

Recent RHATOs have been surprising me of how much details from the first few issues are turning up now (Bizzaro's perspective of his first meeting with Jason, what Artemis was doing there next to his cell, Robin!Jason talking to Dick's costume...). If Lobdell keeps the same practice, then every tiny thing in this book will be worth pocketing.... for science.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Now I'm really anxious about those letters sent from Gotham City Jail. Wondering what Willis would say to his son...


I'm wondering that too especially now that we've had that scene in the Annual. I'm very curious about the content of those letters and also about why they were hidden.

----------


## kiwiliko

> That's a very good connection there. It's like what you said, both this thug and Willis, who are considered "bad guys" can still have moments of goodness or a good motivation. Seeing those moments while knowing how their fate would ultimately turn out is a bittersweet thing.
> 
> Recent RHATOs have been surprising me of how much details from the first few issues are turning up now (Bizzaro's perspective of his first meeting with Jason, what Artemis was doing there next to his cell, Robin!Jason talking to Dick's costume...). If Lobdell keeps the same practice, then every tiny thing in this book will be worth pocketing.... for science.


Ohh man I don't know if its a result of how the writing process works with the artist or if Dexter Soy is just really good with body language. The whole reason I had to majorly slow down and why it takes me so long to go through an issue of RHATO is because there's always a story being told through the background in the art and not just the writing/dialogue. It adds such another level to the reading and just reinforces to me comics and graphic novels are at their best a mixture of written and drawn storytelling.

My particular favourite is the miniscene where Jason takes his picture with a frowning Bruce trying to convince him they should do sexy or spontenous poses only for the last panel showing the final picture has Bruce smiling. There's a bunch more things too like the choreography of the fight between Jason/Artemis vs. Qurac army where both instantly cover eachothers blindspots while the dialogue discusses their alignment issues. Bizarros new shirt certainly implies Jason has probably shopped for an XL size and had it pressed with his emblem on Bizarros request and there's multiple scenes of the two where Bizarro is always drawn placing himself between Jason and any potential enemies despite knowing Jason can handle himself. 

It's really an enjoyment to realize we can actually read this with erased speech bubbles and be able to read a different story about the developing relationship happening between the outlaws at the same time that the dialogue focuses the physical plot story.

----------


## G-Potion

Yoink'd from Dick's thread. Batman#33. Not feeling optimistic.

----------


## Alycat

Oh no Jason's playing with a dog! I cannot tell if that's Damian or Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

That looks like something Damian might read lol.

----------


## kiwiliko

Nothing like a batwriter playing favorites and butchering robins they don't like. Both literally and figuratively.

----------


## G-Potion

TK doesn't get Jason's character. There I said it. Please prove me wrong TK.

----------


## RedBird

If he is being played for laughs. Again. As it seems. I agree with G, I'm not optimistic either. 

Also maybe its just that page but does anyone else think Jason looks kinda buff compared to everyone else? Dick is looking pretty gangly there.

----------


## G-Potion

Jason looks fine to me. I almost didn't recognize Dick though. Looks like a wee old man.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason looks fine to me. I almost didn't recognize Dick though. Looks like a wee old man.


Thats what I mean, Jason looks like his regular self, so I honestly can't tell if this was the artists way of either drawing Jason buffer? Or drawing Dick strangely thin? The former makes more sense then the latter. I don't know how this artist regularly draws muscled heroes so who here is necessarily being exaggerated, you know?

Also side note, I love when artists draw Damian with a wide button nose.

----------


## Assam

Within the next two years,  Cass will be in these sibling scenes again. Patience...

----------


## Aahz

And another appearance of Jason that will suck. Can somebody explain to me how Jason went from being an Badass Antihero, to being the class clown?




> Also maybe its just that page but does anyone else think Jason looks kinda buff compared to everyone else? Dick is looking pretty gangly there.


He is supposed to be the tallest and buffest of them.


Btw. is Tim the one with the book? It looks a little like Damian, but Damian is probably the one sitting on the couch.

----------


## G-Potion

Is Duke supposed to be there?

----------


## TheCape

Reposting for the Red Hood and the Outlaws Annual




> I'm in the camp that thinks that Jason should be as far of the batfamily as humanely possible, not an enemy, maybe an occasional ally, but Jason would preffer to have little to no contact with then, partially because his own set of morals and partially because that family didn't really existed when he was around, so he sorta feels like an outsider to then, no matter what he does.
> 
> But, that is a very unlikely at this point, so this particular way to go about the 2, is probably the best way to make it work.


The second paragraht is about Jason having a very Leo/Ralph dynamic from now on when  he is part of the family. Just wanted to voice my opinion, now with another batfamily moment coming from King.

----------


## RedBird

> And another appearance of Jason that will suck. Can some body explain to me how Jason went from being an Badass Antihero, to being the class clown?


Easier to just de-fang the rebellious characters rather than write them with any sense of nuance or intrigue. Especially if you don't care for them to begin with. :/




> He is supposed to be the tallest and buffest of them.


I agree, and if that was the artists intention then kudos. 
But considering the story its a part of, I worry that it wasn't the artist remembering Jason as the brick house of the family and more a visual representation of the character stereotype he is boxed in whenever King writes him, ala the 'big dumb jock'.

----------


## G-Potion

> Reposting for the Red Hood and the Outlaws Annual
> 
> 
> 
> The second paragraht is about Jason having a very Leo/Ralph dynamic from now on when  he is part of the family. Just wanted to voice my opinion, now with another batfamily moment coming from King.


Yeah, I mean, RHATO Jason would rather hang out with his friends. Though I still think him reaching out to mend his relationship with Dick is a sign of maturing that does good for his character. On the other hand, I do want Jason away from family events like this because it hasn't done him any favors.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, I mean, RHATO Jason would rather hang out with his friends. Though I still think him reaching out to mend his relationship with Dick is a sign of maturing that does good for his character. On the other hand, I do want Jason away from family events like this because it hasn't done him any favors.


Unfortunatly, I have the impression that they are usually damaging him more than pushing him. 

I don't really have the feeling that what Lobdell is doing really helping. Jason reaching out for help from Dick might show his growth as a character. But I think it would have been better the other way arround. He really needs to showcase Jasons capabilities more.

And I also don't have much hope that he will do it more in the upcoming crossover with the TEC team and the suicide squad.

----------


## Alycat

> Unfortunatly, I have the impression that they are usually damaging him more than pushing him. 
> 
> I don't really have the feeling that what Lobdell is doing really helping. Jason reaching out for help from Dick might show his growth as a character. But I think it would have been better the other way arround. He really needs to showcase Jasons capabilities more.
> 
> And I also don't have much hope that he will do it more in the upcoming crossover with the TEC team and the suicide squad.


But if Dick needed help there are probably way too many people he would call before Jason. Like the Titans, who he even mentions here. Has Dick ever reached out to Jason? I don't think he would because he'd assume he isn't wanted.

----------


## TheCape

> Like the Titans, who he even mentions here. Has Dick ever reached out to Jason?


No, he never has, except for Batfamily croosovers, but we rarely see any hindsight about Dick's opinion on Jason, things weren't very different Pre-Flashpoint either.

----------


## Aahz

> But if Dick needed help there are probably way too many people he would call before Jason. Like the Titans, who he even mentions here. Has Dick ever reached out to Jason? I don't think he would because he'd assume he isn't wanted.


Jason can go to places where Dick other friends can't go and there might be other reasons why he would need Jasons help. That way there would be a good opportunity to show some of Jason strength. And that really something they need to do much more.

I mean Dicks last Annual (Grayson Annual #3) was basically just about how super awesome Dick is, why doesn't Jason get something like this?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nothing like a batwriter playing favorites and butchering robins they don't like. Both literally and figuratively.





> If he is being played for laughs. Again. As it seems. I agree with G, I'm not optimistic either. 
> 
> Also maybe its just that page but does anyone else think Jason looks kinda buff compared to everyone else? Dick is looking pretty gangly there.





> TK doesn't get Jason's character. There I said it. Please prove me wrong TK.


Considering he's pretty much showing us that Ace is indeed beating Jason at something ("That list was just a joke guys!") yeah, is going to be crap.

----------


## TheCape

> I mean Dicks last Annual (Grayson Annual #3) was basically just about how super awesome Dick is, why doesn't Jason get something like this?


Jason still needs to reach that annual 3  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Considering he's pretty much showing us that Ace is indeed beating Jason at something ("That list was just a joke guys!") yeah, is going to be crap.


oh..... Jeez....I didn't even realise. UGH

----------


## TheCape

> Considering he's pretty much showing us that Ace is indeed beating Jason at something ("That list was just a joke guys!") yeah, is going to be crap.


What list?

----------


## RedBird

> What list?


A list that King compiled on twitter, ranging the batfam from best to worst (in terms of fighting capabilities I believe).

It was kind of a dumb joke though it clearly riled people up. Dark was referring to the fact that Jason was ranked quite low on Kings 'list' and when fans kicked up a fuss, he added the detail that even Ace the Bat hound rates higher for him.

Even though it was clearly (or at least I hope so) a 'joke', considering King doesn't seem to write Jason as anything more than a buffoon or an incompetent dope, his 'joke' is unfortunately quite reflected in his writing. So yeah, in Jasons case, not looking forward to this.

----------


## Alycat

> Jason can go to places where Dick other friends can't go and there might be other reasons why he would need Jasons help. That way there would be a good opportunity to show some of Jason strength. And that really something they need to do much more.
> 
> I mean Dicks last Annual (Grayson Annual #3) was basically just about how super awesome Dick is, why doesn't Jason get something like this?


Except that isn't true anymore. If he needed to deal with shady stuff there's Helena now. Who is actually still down with killings people too.  Which means there's still a lot to work out with Dick and Jason since Dick has teamed up with people who are clearly on the gray side, but didn't have that personal baggage between them.

Maybe because Dick spends a lot of time as a solo character and Jason usually has his team? I mean even here they weren't exactly in the background.

----------


## TheCape

> Even though it was clearly (or at least I hope so) a 'joke', considering King doesn't seem to write Jason as anything more than a buffoon or an incompetent dope, his 'joke' is unfortunately quite reflected in his writing. So yeah, in Jasons case, not looking forward to this.


If this is true, then i'm glad that Tim is in limbo, he rank even lower than Duke (despite of no making any sense)

----------


## kiwiliko

Bat writers just seem to fall into using tropes so much when it could easily be fixed with a little effort into researching any guest characters.

Even the outlaws appearance in Trinity. Takes maybe 2-3 issues read from rhato to realize Bizarro doesn't do opposite speak anymore but it's obvious the characters weren't what attracted DCs attention, it's their cool sounding role as 'Dark Trinity'.

----------


## okiedokiewo

So is Tim back by the time this issue comes out? Is one of the four him?

And I don't mind Jason goofing around once in a while, but that's all Tom King does with him, so I tire of it. I wish he didn't write the Batman comic because I want Jason to interact with his family, but not under his pen. The Ace thing just shows how petty he is.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Bat writers just seem to fall into using tropes so much when it could easily be fixed with a little effort into researching any guest characters.
> 
> Even the outlaws appearance in Trinity. Takes maybe 2-3 issues read from rhato to realize Bizarro doesn't do opposite speak anymore but it's obvious the characters weren't what attracted DCs attention, it's their cool sounding role as 'Dark Trinity'.


Yeah, the Bizarro speech was incredibly irritating. That's not his character.

----------


## Aahz

> And I don't mind Jason goofing around once in a while,


But he shouldn't be the goofiest of them. And IMO would be more in character if Jason would keep him self a little apart from the rest, while they are goofing around.

----------


## Aioros22

> No, he never has, except for Batfamily croosovers, but we rarely see any hindsight about Dick's opinion on Jason, things weren't very different Pre-Flashpoint either.


So..he has.

----------


## Aioros22

> Considering he's pretty much showing us that *Ace is indeed beating Jason at something* ("That list was just a joke guys!") yeah, is going to be crap.


Sounds to me it`s a tie from the page, boys. Play your bets. 

I sometimes can`t take fandom and some writers seriously, I swear.

----------


## TheCape

> So..he has.


Croosovers if i remenber correctly (and frankly my memory is fuzzy about it), but something like Dick thinking in calling Jason by his own initiative, not that i remenber. I read Dick's whole run in the New 52 and i don't remenber a time when he ever think of Jason beyond a passing mention of him being his sucessor in the Robin mantle.

----------


## Aioros22

Who called who when they were chatting up about Shawn at the rooftop waiting to bust some goofs? As passing mention goes, well....Grayson#12 not only features him and Jason dealing with the lack of trust but the splash page contains several scenes including one of Jason and Dick hugging. 

I do want a story where Dick calls for him, tho. In his own book. "Hey, zombie clows, seems up your alley bro". 

",,,
I`ll bring the napalm".

----------


## TheCape

> Who called who when they were chatting up about Shawn at the rooftop waiting to bust some goofs? As passing mention goes, well....Grayson#12 not only features him and Jason dealing with the lack of trust but the splash page contains several scenes including one of Jason and Dick hugging.
> 
> I do want a story where Dick calls for him, tho. In his own book. "Hey, zombie clows, seems up your alley bro".
> 
> ",,,
> I`ll bring the napalm".


Did he?, in that case i stand corrected, i just recently got back into Nigthwing solo afte like 7 months of hiatus. I don't put much value on Grayson #12 considered how weird the reactions were to Dick's revelation, specially Jason. but fair point.

Also that picht of yours doesn't sound bad.

----------


## Alycat

I still stand by Jason's reaction not being weird. He was mad that Dick faked his death and lied to people. That's a Bruce move after Bruce not too long ago lied to all of them and put them in danger. They had trusted Dick not to do that and he did. Only Damian didn't care because they both weren't dead anymore. I thought everyone else reaction were fine too.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## JasonTodd428

> Bat writers just seem to fall into using tropes so much when it could easily be fixed with a little effort into researching any guest characters.


Lack of doing proper research on guest characters seems to be an issue with a lot of writers across the board and frankly its really starting to annoy the heck outta me. How difficult is it for someone at DC to develop a character bible for all the characters that writers can then access from where ever they are so that characters are portrayed  consistently? DC should hire someone for each family of titles whose responsible for collecting the information for the bible and another person to head up the maintaining the bible. Heck, reach out to the fan community and maybe hire some of the fans who run various character wiki's and let them create that bible. Goodness knows fans sometimes seem more aware of what a character's history entails (and in fine detail to boot) and what their current status is and what their current skill sets are than some writers seem to to be. 

In any case I've pretty much given up on seeing Jason in particular being portrayed well in any Bat connected book and personally I think its down to the old "failed Robin" or "bad Robin" mentality that became a prevalent trope years after his death. I think that, at the moment, there are too many writers who were readers when that was a thing for him to ever get fair treatment.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I still stand by Jason's reaction not being weird. He was mad that Dick faked his death and lied to people. That's a Bruce move after Bruce not too long ago lied to all of them and put them in danger. They had trusted Dick not to do that and he did. Only Damian didn't care because they both weren't dead anymore. I thought everyone else reaction were fine too.


I didn't find it weird either. Jason was angry that Dick of all people pulled a Bruce move on everyone and then waltzed back into their lives as if nothing had happened. He had every right to feel that way especially since he believed Dick to be dead just as all of them did. On top of that death is not an abstract idea to Jason and both Dick's death and the fact that he faked it may have given Jason flashbacks of his own death and resurrection neither of which were pretty.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Lack of doing proper research on guest characters seems to be an issue with a lot of writers across the board and frankly its really starting to annoy the heck outta me. How difficult is it for someone at DC to develop a character bible for all the characters that writers can then access from where ever they are so that characters are portrayed  consistently? DC should hire someone for each family of titles whose responsible for collecting the information for the bible and another person to head up the maintaining the bible. Heck, reach out to the fan community and maybe hire some of the fans who run various character wiki's and let them create that bible. Goodness knows fans sometimes seem more aware of what a character's history entails (and in fine detail to boot) and what their current status is and what their current skill sets are than some writers seem to to be. 
> 
> In any case I've pretty much given up on seeing Jason in particular being portrayed well in any Bat connected book and personally I think its down to the old "failed Robin" or "bad Robin" mentality that became a prevalent trope years after his death. I think that, at the moment, there are too many writers who were readers when that was a thing for him to ever get fair treatment.


Even as a reader, I'm still more inclined to go back and search out old issues to read because I'd rather have my own understanding of a charas history than just believe the abridged version at the start of every new run. 

I've actually mostly accepted batwriters handling batfamilies is usually a trainwreck for all the characters involved, even the ones that get put on a pedestal to appease favorites. Writing for something that hits as wide a range of fans as DC is hard and I wanna give writers more credit but at the same time I also know more than enough fanwriters that dont let their childhood vision of a robin influence what they write. Attempting to research and maintain some balance between how you personally favour vs. objectively balancing character dynamics in a well rounded interaction is something I'd like to see more of at DC in general though so I agree with you.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> Is Duke supposed to be there?


It would make no sense for him _not_ to be, quite frankly, but most likely, it'll stick to how Tom King's been doing the run so far and find some convenient excuse for Duke not to be present.

----------


## Aahz

> In any case I've pretty much given up on seeing Jason in particular being portrayed well in any Bat connected book and personally I think its down to the old "failed Robin" or "bad Robin" mentality that became a prevalent trope years after his death. I think that, at the moment, there are too many writers who were readers when that was a thing for him to ever get fair treatment.


I find it somehow strange that DC doesn't try push him more and find a stronger direction for him. He is quite popular outside of comics (see injustice) and I think his book could sell much better if they would put more effort into getting comic readers excited for him. And his portrait in the Batman comics is pretty much doing the oposite. 
I mean aren't they realising that fans don't like their take on Jason?

----------


## Alycat

> I find it somehow strange that DC doesn't try push him more and find a stronger direction for him. He is quite popular outside of comics (see injustice) and I think his book could sell much better if they would put more effort into getting comic readers excited for him. And his portrait in the Batman comics is pretty much doing the oposite. 
> I mean aren't they realising that fans don't like their take on Jason?


The problem with your assumption is the last sentence. You assume there is a large group that don't like their take when is more likely to be small group that might be loud. Or not. Is it hurting the Batman comics? Nope. So why change it.

----------


## G-Potion

So good asdfagaha!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It would make no sense for him _not_ to be, quite frankly, but most likely, it'll stick to how Tom King's been doing the run so far and find some convenient excuse for Duke not to be present.


Duke is the one sitting cross legged on the couch, Damian is the one reading a book and Dick is the one sitting in front of Duke

----------


## Aahz

> The problem with your assumption is the last sentence. You assume there is a large group that don't like their take when is more likely to be small group that might be loud. Or not. Is it hurting the Batman comics? Nope. So why change it.


Maybe the complainers like me are really just a small group. But it still strange imo that the higher ups let it pass. It should be in their interest to increase the popularity of all the Batkids, and not trash one just for a few lame jokes, and to make the rest look good.

----------


## Aahz

> In any case I've pretty much given up on seeing Jason in particular being portrayed well in any Bat connected book and personally I think its down to the old "failed Robin" or "bad Robin" mentality that became a prevalent trope years after his death. I think that, at the moment, there are too many writers who were readers when that was a thing for him to ever get fair treatment.


The ironic thing is that even "Death in the Family" gave him a better treatment than many of the current writers.

And even Lobdell goes imo to much in the direction of the "failed Robin".

----------


## G-Potion

But Lobdell writes it from Jason's perspective. It's understandable that Jason himself would develop that kind of self blame because of the victim blaming everyone and every meta out there had piled on him for a long time. I think it helps raise awareness of the unfair treatment Jason was under.

----------


## Aahz

> So good asdfagaha!!


I would like to see that Helmet in the comics.

----------


## G-Potion

I would like the whole getup!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The ironic thing is that even "Death in the Family" gave him a better treatment than many of the current writers.


Yeah, they worked very hard to make him likeable and so forth in that story so they could gut punch you with his death. The thing is it doesn't cancel out the character assassination that was happening to him in issues just prior to that. Once Collins was replaced with Starlin he started pushing Jason as an overly violent person culminating in the story "The Diplomat's Son" that was the lead up to DitF. 




> And even Lobdell goes imo to much in the direction of the "failed Robin".


I disagree with you there. He has Jason say he is, sure, because that is how Jason feels personally about himself but then Lobdell shows why that isn't true at all through his actions.

----------


## Aahz

> But Lobdell writes it from Jason's perspective. It's understandable that Jason himself would develop that kind of self blame because of the victim blaming everyone and every meta out there had piled on him for a long time. I think it helps raise awareness of the unfair treatment Jason was under.


Yeah but he could for example have used Dick's perspective in this Annual to show a much more positive point of view.

----------


## Aahz

> I disagree with you there. He has Jason say he is, sure, because that is how Jason feels personally about himself but then Lobdell shows why that isn't true at all through his actions.


I think we have to wait till Lobdell reveals what Jason did in the first night he went out as Robin on his own (if he is going to do that). But at least until now we didn't saw Jason doing anything amazing as Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> I would like the whole getup!


Don't know, that "Jacket" looks a little wired, but I'm down for the swords.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah but he could for example have used Dick's perspective in this Annual to show a much more positive point of view.


I mean we did get some of Dick's opinion which was positive. We can't get much from Dick though because as this showed they don't spend enough time to really know each other

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah but he could for example have used Dick's perspective in this Annual to show a much more positive point of view.


You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.  

a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two. 

b) For all of Jason`s brief bouts with jealously, it`s Dick who asks Artemis if they`re together. Only when she gets passive defensive he chims in about her being out of his league. Later on she jokes the same way to Jason when he snarks about Dick being her boyfriend. 

c) Despite the infatuation, all Artemis talks and asks about is Jason. She doesn`t ask anything about Dick. Dick`s opener to her is a story of Jason from back then. 

d) The Annual ends with Dick exclaining that Jason does such good work as a good guy that it`s easy to forget he`s supposed to be a bad guy. This is nothing but another bat vouching what he does, like Bruce.

The Annual wasn`t perfect. It`s Loedbell`s lesser work so far in Rebirth but you seriously didn`t read any value in what he wrote Dick saying?

----------


## Aioros22

Oh yeah, I forgot it. 

He considers Jason a far better big brother to Bizarro than he ever was to him. This is telling, because it shows Jason managed to live past a certain level of experience and shape it differently for someone else.

----------


## Aahz

> You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.  
> 
> a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two.


He I can't find anything were Dick really clearly said that Jason worked harder than him. Or did something better than him.

He say some positive things about him, but imo nothing really strong. And the thing with breaking the rules can again be interpreted in a negative way.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.  
> 
> a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two.


Empty words when he can say that to Jason directly. He never had any issue praising Damian or Tim, why is different with Jason?




> b) For all of Jason`s brief bouts with jealously, it`s Dick who asks Artemis if they`re together. Only when she gets passive defensive he chims in about her being out of his league. Later on she jokes the same way to Jason when he snarks about Dick being her boyfriend.


And yet he pushed the situation despite the obvious discomfort from Jason. For someone who just recently made up with his "little brother" Dick sure was acting like an ass.




> c) Despite the infatuation, all Artemis talks and asks about is Jason. She doesn`t ask anything about Dick. Dick`s opener to her is a story of Jason from back then.


Jason had to work his ass off to get Artemis to trust on him. Dick literally just showed up to get the same.




> d) The Annual ends with Dick exclaining that Jason does such good work as a good guy that it`s easy to forget he`s supposed to be a bad guy. This is nothing but another bat vouching what he does, like Bruce.


For all the good it makes.




> The Annual wasn`t perfect. It`s Loedbell`s lesser work so far in Rebirth but you seriously didn`t read any value in what he wrote Dick saying?


Considering how he bend over himself to paint how _freaking awesome Dick_ is, no, is not enough.

----------


## Jovos2099

From what  little I've  seen of Willis todd he reminds of Frank Gallagher from shameless.

----------


## Godlike13

Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was. And now Dick is his secret hero, via Tim Drake's ripped off origin. Uhg...

----------


## Aahz

> Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was.


And that why they really should revisit his time as Robin, and ideally give him something similar to Robin Year One (I have actually read somewhere that it's creators planned to do a Jason Todd Year One) or Tims early miniseries. And use stuff like this annual (or books like the Eternals and Robin War) to highlight more what made him distinctive in a positiv way.

----------


## Aioros22

> Empty words when he can say that to Jason directly. He never had any issue praising Damian or Tim, why is different with Jason?


His dinamic with Jason carries a different set of emotions. Pretty clear neither these two like to open up. 

Jason *doesn`t* open up or talks directly to Dick about his first impression either. He talks to himself. 




> And yet he pushed the situation despite the obvious discomfort from Jason. For someone who just recently made up with his "little brother" Dick sure was acting like an ass.


Jason isn`t a kid that needs to be pout in the back, guy. That sequence was clearly done to fuel the JasonxArtemis shippers. But here, that admittion in the end _was_ told to Jason`s face. 




> Jason had to work his ass off to get Artemis to trust on him. Dick literally just showed up to get the same


By talking about Jason and Jason only. He`s the guy/wingman who only tells stories about the guy that`s been close to the girl to get instant rapport. How utterling flattering.

Artemis looked to trust him by proxis of Jason having a history to him and being brothers. But here`s another reason your expectations are sometimes off. Is Dick charismatic with it? Yes, but you can`t chalk that up to bad writting. Dick has always been more relaxed and social with people than Jason ever has. That`s consistantly part of their DNA as characters. 

I mean, we all here realize by reading RATHO that Jason and Artemis first met on opposite sides of the battleground when he was "working" for Black Mask. Meanwhile, Dick comes from a friendly call and is instantly placed on the comfort zone. How on Earth to these two first impressions compare at all? 




> For all the good it makes.


Is it you admitting there`s some potential good? 

It makes Dick the other bat after Bruce to vouch for the way he does things. His way works and works well and you can`t argue with results. 

To me, that level of trust back is satisfatory.

----------


## Aioros22

> Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was. And now Dick is his secret hero, via Tim Drake's ripped off origin. Uhg...


There, there guy. 

Ya`ll can`t all be right all the time.

----------


## Aioros22

> He I can't find anything were Dick really clearly said that Jason worked harder than him. Or did something better than him.
> 
> He say some positive things about him, but imo nothing really strong. And the thing with breaking the rules can again be interpreted in a negative way.


You can`t because you don`t really want to. 

Dick is effectively prasing Jason`s sense of independence despite living under rules and his legacy, his hard working nature in managing two lives ("studying all day and breaking rules by night"), his jugdment in paving his way (which he openly praises Jason at the end) and how he didn`t have any fault in how things started. 

Dick is a college droput and just praised the kid despite going out without Bruce`s say due to...negative things? Nope.

----------


## Aahz

But "studying all day and breaking rules by night" s not hardest working Robin ever.

If you compare it to the praise the other Robins usually get, and to Jason calling Dick his hero, it is quite a weak praise in comparison.

----------


## Alycat

I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.

----------


## Aahz

> I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.


Since the reboot 52 his time in collage was afaik not mentioned sofar. But it is in general not really fleshed out what he did before the start of the new continuity.

We don't now, why and how he quit or was fired as Robin. It is not really clear where worked as Nightwing (appearently not in Blüdhaven) and he apearently was together with Kory at some point, but at least sofar it doesn't look as if Kory was ever a Titans member.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> His dinamic with Jason carries a different set of emotions. Pretty clear neither these two like to open up. 
> 
> Jason *doesn`t* open up or talks directly to Dick about his first impression either. He talks to himself.


But Dick, being so _awesome_ as he's supposed to be should be the one trying to reach out Jason, just like he has done with _every other freaking character he's friends with_




> Jason isn`t a kid that needs to be pout in the back, guy. That sequence was clearly done to fuel the JasonxArtemis shippers. But here, that admittion in the end _was_ told to Jason`s face.


That doesn't excuse Dick acting like an ass. Bros before hoes, simply as that.





> By talking about Jason and Jason only. He`s the guy/wingman who only tells stories about the guy that`s been close to the girl to get instant rapport. How utterling flattering.
> 
> Artemis looked to trust him by proxis of Jason having a history to him and being brothers. But here`s another reason your expectations are sometimes off. Is Dick charismatic with it? Yes, but you can`t chalk that up to bad writting. Dick has always been more relaxed and social with people than Jason ever has. That`s consistantly part of their DNA as characters. 
> 
> I mean, we all here realize by reading RATHO that Jason and Artemis first met on opposite sides of the battleground when he was "working" for Black Mask. Meanwhile, Dick comes from a friendly call and is instantly placed on the comfort zone. How on Earth to these two first impressions compare at all?


Because you're assuming this happens _after_ all of Artemis' development has happened when we know from the editorial note, it hasn't. Once they went to Qurac they get there until they solved the issue with Arkila and immediately after they got busy with the whole "Bizarro is dying" thing. Meaning the annual can only happen after Issue 7 but before Issue 9. When Artemis was still in bitch mode. And thus, the whole thing makes Artemis act OOC just because the great Dick Grayson shows up.




> Is it you admitting there`s some potential good?


There is potential on the dynamics but that can't be found on the annual.




> It makes Dick the other bat after Bruce to vouch for the way he does things. His way works and works well and you can`t argue with results. 
> 
> To me, that level of trust back is satisfatory.


And yet we know he can't be arsed to talk to Kate and tell her to knock it off. As I said, an empty token of appreciation that isn't backed up by actions.

----------


## Aioros22

> But "studying all day and breaking rules by night" s not hardest working Robin ever.
> 
> If you compare it to the praise the other Robins usually get, and to Jason calling Dick his hero, it is quite a weak praise in comparison.


Then you should change your narrative to "that`s not the praise I want" to "there`s no praise there". 

And why wouldn`t it be the hardest thing? If I recall, Pre Flashpoint, not only did Dick dropped his studies, for the longest time, Tim was having issues reconciliating the two, despite being considered the "smartest". Meanwhile this kid came from the streets, hardly ever lived a happy family life, had to live under a legacy that was not his and yet Dick is praising exactly that - that Jason was never content in living under someone else`s stories, he wanted to be his own thing and he tried hard to do it. 

Which in the end is what he did. Dick and Jason are the "graduates", they`re allies to Batman but able to carvve their own stories.

----------


## Aioros22

> But Dick, being so _awesome_ as he's supposed to be should be the one trying to reach out Jason, just like he has done with _every other freaking character he's friends with_.


Has he? Since the reboot he hardly interacted with Tim or Roy, for example. That`s like one of the chief issues with his fanbase. 




> That doesn't excuse Dick acting like an ass. Bros before hoes, simply as that.


Which he admits in the end. What more with Jason helping Bizarro afterwards. 




> Because you're assuming this happens _after_ all of Artemis' development has happened when we know from the editorial note, it hasn't. Once they went to Qurac they get there until they solved the issue with Arkila and immediately after they got busy with the whole "Bizarro is dying" thing. Meaning the annual can only happen after Issue 7 but before Issue 9. When Artemis was still in bitch mode. And thus, the whole thing makes Artemis act OOC just because the great Dick Grayson shows up.


The only editorial note I`m aware of is that it happens before issue #12 so feel free to show something more especific.

Unless it happens during the intial stages of RATHO, which I don`t belive it does for the most obvious reasons, Dick Grayson is well received because she and Jason already have some rapport here and there`s little reason to mistrust someone whom Jason _welcomes_ in. This is evidenced further by Artemis only talking about Jay. 




> There is potential on the dynamics but that can't be found on the annual.


True, they have to carry somewhere else, I dislike it being too short. 




> And yet we know he can't be arsed to talk to Kate and tell her to knock it off. As I said, an empty token of appreciation that isn't backed up by actions.


We still don`t know how that will play out so I`m not going to debate something I don`t know how will happen.  

Given it`s the same writer, he`s got everything to use it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.


At this point we still don`t know how exactly Nigthwing came to be and what inspired the change. 

But classically speaking, Dick Grayson has been a dropout since the 70`s.

----------


## Alycat

> At this point we still don`t know how exactly Nigthwing came to be and what inspired the change. 
> 
> But classically speaking, Dick Grayson has been a dropout since the 70`s.


Yeah I remember him dropping out previously, but I meant with the shirt timeline here I don't think we've gotten any indication of him ever going.

Any way about Artemis I think this is one of the few times we've seen her outside of a serious situation. That could account for her attitude here if you wanted to think that way.

----------


## RedBird

> you're assuming this happens _after_ all of Artemis' development


Thats because it does.

rhato annual note.JPG

This annual seems to imply that Bizarro may have had some time in between issue 11 when the Akila arc was over and he had fainted, to issue 12 when he needs bed rest and can hardly stand. The fact that there had been a time lapse between the issues makes sense considering also those flashbacks of 'happy moments' between the outlaws we see in issue 13. Also it actually helps make more sense of why they went to Gotham for treatment in issue 12 in the first place, apparently they didnt, they were already in Gotham.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think is that complicated, you can tell she already has a level of intimacy with Jason from this Annual alone. Jason brings someone in and tells them the other guy is pratically family, the Outlaws are family too, the other guy shows he knows Jason from long ago and shares stories when he was a pup pup..

Why would they give him the cold shower? Are readers just upset Dick Grayson smooth stalks every redhead he sees? I`m not. It it because it makes Artemis less endearing or "weak"? Just look who Artemis talked about the whole issue, was it Dick Grayson? His past? Hs life? Nada. 

So all I get from this is that Grayson has a patalogical infatuation with red-heads. Shock me.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Has he? Since the reboot he hardly interacted with Tim or Roy, for example. That`s like one of the chief issues with his fanbase.


Damian, Duke, Kori, Wally, Garth and Babs say hi.




> Which he admits in the end. What more with Jason helping Bizarro afterwards.


Good to see you admit Dick's being an ass. 




> We still don`t know how that will play out so I`m not going to debate something I don`t know how will happen.  
> 
> Given it`s the same writer, he`s got everything to use it.


Lobdell isn't the one who decides who shows up on the book. That is on editorial.




> Thats because it does.
> 
> rhato annual note.JPG
> 
> This annual seems to imply that Bizarro may have had some time in between issue 11 when the Akila arc was over and he had fainted, to issue 12 when he needs bed rest and can hardly stand. The fact that there had been a time lapse between the issues makes sense considering also those flashbacks of 'happy moments' between the outlaws we see in issue 13. Also it actually helps make more sense of why they went to Gotham for treatment in issue 12 in the first place, apparently they didnt, they were already in Gotham.





> The only editorial note I`m aware of is that it happens before issue #12 so feel free to show something more especific.
> 
> Unless it happens during the intial stages of RATHO, which I don`t belive it does for the most obvious reasons, Dick Grayson is well received because she and Jason already have some rapport here and there`s little reason to mistrust someone whom Jason _welcomes_ in. This is evidenced further by Artemis only talking about Jay.


The note doesn't denies the possibility of being earlier than issue 12 either. The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual. Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly. Besides, the thing with KGBeast isn't mentioned by Jason when he's recounting the events that lead Bizarro to his then-death.

Is also important to note that the annual heavily implies they spend at least a couple of days performing on the circus, you seriously believe that Jason would be so happy and carefree when Bizarro just freaking collapsed? Jason, the same guy who saw his mother died on an overdose? 

On the other hand, the annual fits perfectly between Jason sparing Bizarro and his attack on the bad guy bar of issue 8

----------


## RedBird

> The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual. 
> 
> Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly.



I didnt admit the annual happened between issue 12 and 13, I clearly said between issue 11 and 12. I literally explained the situations as well, after he faints in issue 11 but before he is given bed rest in issue 12. Issue 12 and 13 CLEARLY had nothing in between since Luthor has Bizarro in operation the whole time.

Also yeah, Bizarro did collapse, but theres clearly a gap between issue 11 and 12 where people can easily assume that his collapse was simply a warning of things to come. That Jason and Artemis knew the eventuality of what was to occur and in response spent pleasant memories with him; EG like the flashbacks of Jason and Biz playing video game in issue 13 and now the events of the circus in the annual.

----------


## Aioros22

> Damian, Duke, Kori, Wally, Garth and Babs say hi


Interesting you mention Kori. When did he reached out for her, when he was visiting ex girlfriends and get jealous of their seemingly new relationships or leases in life?




> Good to see you admit Dick's being an ass


To the surprise of no one. I said it on the go otherwise I wouldn`t emphatize him admitting it. 




> Lobdell isn't the one who decides who shows up on the book. That is on editorial


They aren`t plotting and writting the book, he is. 




> The note doesn't denies the possibility of being earlier than issue 12 either. The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual. Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly. Besides, the thing with KGBeast isn't mentioned by Jason when he's recounting the events that lead Bizarro to his then-death.
> Is also important to note that the annual heavily implies they spend at least a couple of days performing on the circus, you seriously believe that Jason would be so happy and carefree when Bizarro just freaking collapsed? Jason, the same guy who saw his mother died on an overdose?


I said _before_ #12, as in the note, not after or during. 




> On the other hand, the annual fits perfectly between Jason sparing Bizarro and his attack on the bad guy bar of issue 8


Maybe. All it needs is to be in a place where Artemis and Jason are already drawing closer.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I didnt admit the annual happened between issue 12 and 13, I clearly said between issue 11 and 12. I literally explained the situations as well, after he faints in issue 11 but before he is given bed rest in issue 12. Issue 12 and 13 CLEARLY had nothing in between since Luthor has Bizarro in operation the whole time.
> 
> Also yeah, Bizarro did collapse, but theres clearly a gap between issue 11 and 12 where people can easily assume that his collapse was simply a warning of things to come. That Jason and Artemis knew the eventuality of what was to occur and in response spent pleasant memories with him; EG like the flashbacks of Jason and Biz playing video game in issue 13 and now the events of the circus in the annual.


Again, if they had _days_ to fool around on the circus their freakout on issue 12 about Bizarro's condition loses impact and makes it look like is forced to create emotional response.




> Interesting you mention Kori. When did he reached out for her, when he was visiting ex girlfriends and get jealous of their seemingly new relationships or leases in life?


Starfire issue 7. And he actually apologized to her and asked her (not her crush/boyfriend) how things were going.






> To the surprise of no one. I said it on the go otherwise I wouldn`t emphatize him admitting it.


A hollow admission. They aren't kids anymore, but two grown ass adults and Dick is the one who should set the example.  Editorial wants to tell us how amazing he is? He better start acting the part.




> They aren`t plotting and writting the book, he is.


And his plots change per Editorial demands, not his. They are the ones who decide who can show and when or the ones who demand Lobdell to include certain characters on his plots.




> Maybe. All it needs is to be in a place where Artemis and Jason are already drawing closer.


A closeness triggered by the whole Akila business, not earlier.

----------


## RedBird

> Again, if they had _days_ to fool around on the circus their freakout on issue 12 about Bizarro's condition loses impact and makes it look like is forced to create emotional response.


Its not forced and their 'freak out' doesnt lose impact. It can't. The impact is that Bizarros condition has NOW gotten really bad. In issue 12 he has deteriorated to a point where it is best for him to remain in bed. By issue 12 they know that he is no longer capable of doing anything without it severely affecting his health. That is the impact, that fact has them extremely worried for him when he does start fighting Grundy. 

As I said, if it can be assumed that Biz fainting in issue 11 was only a sign of things to come (as Jason himself acknowledges since he knew the big guy wouldn't last long anyway), then all of the happy memories/flashbacks of issue 13, and the annual, plus Artemis's development can easily make more sense and fit just fine between the two issues of 11 and 12. One issue ends in Qurac and the other starts off in Gotham, theres no telling how much time actually passed between the issues.

If it happens before the Artemis arc as you state then Artemis's behavior makes no sense and it also makes no sense as to why she would be okay and hunky dorey to put a hold on her life long mission to retrieve the bow of Ra to play a circus act.

----------


## Aahz

> Then you should change your narrative to "that`s not the praise I want" to "there`s no praise there".


But it is also not the praise you claimed would be there.
Dick said that Jason worked hard, but not that was the hardest working Robin or that he worked harder than Dick, that's just your interpretation.

My problem is just that Jason is not nearly getting that as much praise as the rest of the Batkids. Dick basically got a whole annual about how awesome he is (Grayson Annual #3). Tims intelligence gets also mentioned constantly, as is Cass fighting ability, praise of Jason is quite rare, usually quite weak and ambiguous, and he gets on top of this imo way more often shown in a negative way. I really don't know how often other characters called him an idiot or implied that he was one.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Its not forced and their 'freak out' doesnt lose impact. It can't. The impact is that Bizarros condition has NOW gotten really bad. In issue 12 he has deteriorated to a point where it is best for him to remain in bed. By issue 12 they know that he is no longer capable of doing anything without it severely affecting his health. That is the impact, that fact has them extremely worried for him when he does start fighting Grundy. 
> 
> As I said, if it can be assumed that Biz fainting in issue 11 was only a sign of things to come (as Jason himself acknowledges since he knew the big guy wouldn't last long anyway), then all of the happy memories/flashbacks of issue 13, and the annual, plus Artemis's development can easily make more sense and fit just fine between the two issues of 11 and 12. One issue ends in Qurac and the other starts off in Gotham, theres no telling how much time actually passed between the issues.
> 
> *If it happens before the Artemis arc as you state then Artemis's behavior makes no sense and it also makes no sense as to why she would be okay and hunky dorey to put a hold on her life long mission to retrieve the bow of Ra to play a circus act.*


Exactly my point, both Artemis and Jason are written awfully OOC on the annual.

----------


## Alycat

I mean the time gap makes sense in order for issue 13 to make sense. The group had to have spent some downtime in Gotham for that flashback of Jason and Bizzaro to occur. There is no other time for it to happen, so the annual fits in right there.

----------


## RedBird

> Exactly my point, both Artemis and Jason are written awfully OOC on the annual.


That is assuming that you are correct in your assumption?
The situation I am suggesting makes more sense for the time span and interactions, whilst you are suggesting a situation which would make the writing inconsistent and chalk it up to being ooc. 

If thats what you would prefer to believe, by all means go ahead. 

I will stick this theory, since A) its consistent, B) it makes more sense plot wise, and C) Clear evidence of the panel which states this all happens before the events of issue 12. 
I personally dont think the writing was trying to be vague when they said 'before the events of issue 12' to mean anywhere from issue 1 till now. IF it had been before the Artemis arc it would have said "before the events of issue 8", no? But it didnt. So clearly thats not when it happened.

I think the editors were safely assuming we could figure it being after the previous event (Akila) but not before the event of issue 12 (life of Biz) as they state to us. Again, which places the annual right in that sweet spot between issue 11 and 12.

----------


## RedBird

> I mean the time gap makes sense in order for issue 13 to make sense. The group had to have spent some downtime in Gotham for that flashback of Jason and Bizzaro to occur. There is no other time for it to happen, so the annual fits in right there.


Right? Plus I can't imagine Artemis being patient enough before issue 8 when she was constantly on edge and emotional to deal with Jason and Biz wasting time playing video games.

"One more round Arty, I swear, then we will go on your life changing mission!" :P

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I mean the time gap makes sense in order for issue 13 to make sense. The group had to have spent some downtime in Gotham for that flashback of Jason and Bizzaro to occur. *There is no other time for it to happen, so the annual fits in right there.*





> Right? Plus I can't imagine Artemis being patient enough before issue 8 when she was constantly on edge and emotional to deal with Jason and Biz wasting time playing video games.
> 
> "One more round Arty, I swear, then we will go on your life changing mission!" :P


All the time that passed between beating Black Mask and leaving for Qurac. They clearly had free time to track down Cornelius Stirk and for Jason to track and expel the Russians from Gotham. There's not set dates so you can fit perfectly well Bizarro bonding with them in there. 

Is more of a stretch to assume that Bizarro collapsed in the middle of Qurac and instead of rushing home to treat him. he miraculously got well enough for enough days so the annual happened. _And then_ to collapse *off screen* so issue 12 opening scene could happen. Lobdell is better writer than that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> All the time that passed between beating Black Mask and leaving for Qurac. They clearly had free time to track down Cornelius Stirk and for Jason to track and expel the Russians from Gotham. There's not set dates so you can fit perfectly well Bizarro bonding with them in there. 
> 
> Is more of a stretch to assume that Bizarro collapsed in the middle of Qurac and instead of rushing home to treat him. he miraculously got well enough for enough days so the annual happened. _And then_ to collapse *off screen* so issue 12 opening scene could happen. Lobdell is better writer than that.


Yes, Lobdell is a better writer than that which is why I don't believe he would write any of the Outlaws OOC as you are suggesting he did in the Annual. The editor, who is by the away the same editor Lobdell has had for all the issues prior to this annual, clear!y states that this annual occurs BEFORE ISSUE 12 and there is literally no where else where the continuity of this issue would fit except BETWEEN issues 11 and 12. It makes no sense for it to happen between the Black Mask arc and Artemis's because Artemis was to focused on finding the bow. I honestly see no downtime at all between the two arcs because of that. The Bow of Ra is a dangerous weapon in the hands of a dictator and that would take priority over a side trip to go undercover in a circus after some seemingly low-level mobsters.

Also as others have already stated Bizarro's fainting in issue 11 was merely a warning sign of his deteriorating state that he could very well have temproarily recovered from enough to do the circus job after which his condition deteriorated further. Its an actual medical possibility for that to have happened. I've seen it happen with people who are terminally ill. They are very sick one day then seemingly bounce back again for a period of time and then rapidly decline again. (This is exactly what happened to my mother who was dying of a terminal and inoperable cancer.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes, Lobdell is a better writer than that which is why I don't believe he would write any of the Outlaws OOC as you are suggesting he did in the Annual. The editor, who is by the away the same editor Lobdell has had for all the issues prior to this annual, clear!y states that this annual occurs BEFORE ISSUE 12 and there is literally no where else where the continuity of this issue would fit except BETWEEN issues 11 and 12.


Oh I'm not blaming Lobdell, I'm blaming editorial. Is not the first (and clearly not the last) time that editorial has asked something for him and he has had to comply.




> It makes no sense for it to happen between the Black Mask arc and Artemis's because Artemis was to focused on finding the bow. I honestly see no downtime at all between the two arcs because of that. The Bow of Ra is a dangerous weapon in the hands of a dictator and that would take priority over a side trip to go undercover in a circus after some seemingly low-level mobsters.


And by the same token I don't see any possible downtime between issues 11 and 12 where the annual can happen. Getting Bizarro the needed attention ranks much higher than following the threats of some punk ass mobster.




> Also as others have already stated Bizarro's fainting in issue 11 was merely a warning sign of his deteriorating state that he could very well have temproarily recovered from enough to do the circus job after which his condition deteriorated further. Its an actual medical possibility for that to have happened. I've seen it happen with people who are terminally ill. They are very sick one day then seemingly bounce back again for a period of time and then rapidly decline again. (This is exactly what happened to my mother who was dying of a terminal and inoperable cancer.)


This is not a matter of realism, is a matter of narrative congruence. Issue 11 ends with a cliffhanger that leads directly to the start of issue 12, you can't insert something on the middle of it without breaking the narrative flow. Especially when the alleged insertion lacks the needed connective tissue to keep the narrative consistent. The annual ends on a positive note that clashes massively with the tone and mood present on issue 12 and that is something that a writer like Lobdell wouldn't let pass. Even when the events don't make logical sense (Requiem and Batman Inc), he acknowledges them to keep his plots consistent. And if he goes the extra mile with other writers' work, are you honestly believing he wouldn't bother to do the same _for his own work_? Hell, he _acknowledges issue 7 events_. 

Placing the annual on the nebulous period of time between issues 7 and 9 is the only way where there's no real need to connect it with an ongoing story simply because issues 7 and 8 are one shots.

----------


## Aioros22

> Starfire issue 7. And he actually apologized to her and asked her (not her crush/boyfriend) how things were going.


He didn`t went to Kory with any purpose to mend anything. He was on a mission tracking a guy with a briefcase and ends on the same boat with her and her date, crap ensues and she helps him. 

He basically says sorry from not telling her he had faked his death after she demands to know the reason, had nothing to do with whatever shiat had gone between them. 




> A hollow admission. They aren't kids anymore, but two grown ass adults and Dick is the one who should set the example.  Editorial wants to tell us how amazing he is? He better start acting the part.


Is that what is missing, a "sorry, bro?"




> And his plots change per Editorial demands, not his. They are the ones who decide who can show and when or the ones who demand Lobdell to include certain characters on his plots.


I can symphatize but he`s been in the biz since the 90`s and should virtually know how to deal with it. It`s in his hands to make the best out of it. 




> A closeness triggered by the whole Akila business, not earlier.


Seems like it but you aren`t getting it that I`m not playing the game. 

*Before issue 12* only means that the story plays before the event of Bizarro collapsing after fighting Grundy and is subquently taken by Luthor. Excrutinizing how many days or hours it is that passes between whatever time it is and Issue 12 is an exercise in futility. It`s an Annual, a lost tale, a day in the life of the Outlaws

----------


## Aioros22

> But it is also not the praise you claimed would be there.
> Dick said that Jason worked hard, but not that was the hardest working Robin or that he worked harder than Dick, that's just your interpretation.


He said Jason worked hard emphatizing qualities bent on strenght of _character_. Can you tell me why he would do that unless he wasn`t saying Jason actually worked harder than he had? What would be the point? 

Here`s the list of quaiities he emphatized: - Sense of Identity - Independence - The better brother - Hard working/Focused - Not willing to live under anyone`s shadow or orders - Praise of "his way". 

You`re like "oh, you could say the same about any Robin" and I`m saying "this is not a any Robin, it`s the golden boy saying *that* about Jason". It`s like suddently Damian`s never been lectured by Bruce on how much he`s yet to learn compared to the others or how Tim was someone who`s mention to feel saddled with Jason`s weight of legacy. Do you notice how those traits are true to Jason`s character currently?

The big issue I have on the matter is Dick not explicity telling Jason how their grudge which started over petty things was never his fault altho that likely falls under the "_I was a shit big brother to you_" line but I certainly enjoy his addmittance that Jason`s way works and he`s too damn good at it. 

That single closing panel is also telling. Maybe the actual problem is that for the longest time Dick only saw Jason as a kid brother who dared to go a direction that was forbidden and that both pissed him off and made him try to help/judge/lecture. Families do that, so that very closing line would read as "I trust you`re doing things your way and it seems to work so I`m not even going to say anthing about it". 




> My problem is just that Jason is not nearly getting that as much praise as the rest of the Batkids. Dick basically got a whole annual about how awesome he is (Grayson Annual #3). Tims intelligence gets also mentioned constantly, as is Cass fighting ability, praise of Jason is quite rare, usually quite weak and ambiguous, and he gets on top of this imo way more often shown in a negative way. I really don't know how often other characters called him an idiot or implied that he was one.


It was always the girls calling him that because he`s written in the Eternals as the big bad boy. On the other hand you need to realize that other fanbases like Dick or Tim`s have long been bugged down that Jason gets the previliege to be vouched by Batman (and now Dick Grayson as far as Loedbell is concerned) because apperantly it makes them weak admitting his way is more pragmatic.  

It`s so so. Not as praised as Dick (who een Superman bends to) but apart from sarcastic or bad boy examples of context, he`s not bottom pole either.

----------


## G-Potion

Jason still stands a distance away from the family, it's understandable that they can't know him like they know the other members. What Dick has to say of Jason is still his very core characteristic but still limited to looking at him from a distance. It's not like Lobdell doesn't have other qualities to attribute to Jason, but those came from people who really see him up close, like Artemis (instinct), Bizzaro (kindness), Ducra (goodness) etc... . 

The thing with other characters calling him idiot, I'll chalk it down as none of them really knows what Jason is capable of and Jason does put on a front when dealing with family, and it is on them. As long as Jason doesn't _act_ like one, I don't really care what others say about him 'cause it will just make them look bad.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh I'm not blaming Lobdell, I'm blaming editorial. Is not the first (and clearly not the last) time that editorial has asked something for him and he has had to comply.


This is the same editor that its been since the start of Rebirth though and I've never seen him lay down any sort of editorial edict of this nature before. Why would an editor whose has never steered Lobdell wrong before and who has been an exemplary editor with a light touch suddenly switch gears with this final issue of his tenure on the book? Oh, and please don't use Dick's appearance here as the excuse for it because I don't buy it since the appearance is in a book not edited by that office. 




> And by the same token I don't see any possible downtime between issues 11 and 12 where the annual can happen. Getting Bizarro the needed attention ranks much higher than following the threats of some punk ass mobster.


Ordinarily I would agree with you but its highly dependant on what happened off panel and we've no clear idea what may have happened there. What is clear is that sometime between the cliffhanger in issue 11 and the beginning of issue 12 Bizarro's heart started beating again so he was not in fact dead. There would have been no reason for them to have taken him to Ma Gunn if he were dead.





> This is not a matter of realism, is a matter of narrative congruence. Issue 11 ends with a cliffhanger that leads directly to the start of issue 12, you can't insert something on the middle of it without breaking the narrative flow. Especially when the alleged insertion lacks the needed connective tissue to keep the narrative consistent. The annual ends on a positive note that clashes massively with the tone and mood present on issue 12 and that is something that a writer like Lobdell wouldn't let pass. Even when the events don't make logical sense (Requiem and Batman Inc), he acknowledges them to keep his plots consistent. And if he goes the extra mile with other writers' work, are you honestly believing he wouldn't bother to do the same _for his own work_? Hell, he _acknowledges issue 7 events_.


All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, it fits better there. Its not perfect but I don't see anywhere else it could fit with the editorial note being what it is. Your milage on that obviously varies on that and that's fine.





> Placing the annual on the nebulous period of time between issues 7 and 9 is the only way where there's no real need to connect it with an ongoing story simply because issues 7 and 8 are one shots.


And yet the editor's note clearly states that this happened before issue 12. If it happened at that point the note would have read that this issues happens before issue 9. Again I don't think this particular editor would have made such a mistake in his own note. Its incongruous with how accurate he's been and editorial note tend to mean exactly what they say otherwise readers would be lost.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

That`s actually a pretty complementary point that would also fit in what Dick was saying to Artemis about being too late to mend what is done and what a shit brother he was.

----------


## kiwiliko

> The thing with other characters calling him idiot, I'll chalk it down as none of them really knows what Jason is capable of and Jason does put on a front when dealing with family, and it is on them. As long as Jason doesn't _act_ like one, I don't really care what others say about him 'cause it will just make them look bad.


Ignorning all those lists about their abilities and what not, I think you have a point. Given the question 'would you want a serial killer dead if it spares 100 innocent lives they will kill', the only person out of the family that can give 'yes' at this point is Jason (rest are debatable, we know batman says no). UtRH wasn't meant to make Jason look good, it was a challenge to batmans morals but we're still ultimately expected to agree with the bat. If comments on the issues are anything to go by, Jasons arguments were a lot more sympathetic than DC expected. If the batbooks ever stop using a villain of the week plot to bring the family together, they run the risk of touching on Jasons morals vs. the familys and if that happens, DC runs the risk of making the whole family look bad because many fans don't have black white mindsets when we think of irl morals.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ignorning all those lists about their abilities and what not, I think you have a point. Given the question 'would you want a serial killer dead if it spares 100 innocent lives they will kill', the only person out of the family that can give 'yes' at this point is Jason (rest are debatable, we know batman says no). UtRH wasn't meant to make Jason look good, it was a challenge to batmans morals but we're still ultimately expected to agree with the bat. If comments on the issues are anything to go by, Jasons arguments were a lot more sympathetic than DC expected. If the batbooks ever stop using a villain of the week plot to bring the family together, they run the risk of touching on Jasons morals vs. the familys and if that happens, DC runs the risk of making the whole family look bad because many fans don't have black white mindsets when we think of irl morals.


Yeah, going to tumblr, it's a fact that the posts defending Jason - validating his character and capabilities, not just as Red Hood but as Robin, and of course, his morality - outnumbers any other Bat characters. Fans aren't idiots so as long as Jason is written relatively well, no matter if other characters don't give him enough credit, fans will be vocal with their appreciation. On the other hand, Dick and Tim's not so complementary characteristics are starting to get dragged up for discussion. Nothing against Dick/Tim of course, but it should be known that they are not the perfect human beings as fandom tend to see them for a long time.

----------


## G-Potion

How's your drawing going by the way?  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> That`s actually a pretty complementary point that would also fit in what Dick was saying to Artemis about being too late to mend what is done and what a shit brother he was.


You can imagine Dick's point of view throughout the issue, seeing Jason treating Bizzaro, to finally admit that line to Jason. I wouldn't want to risk the issue being written from Dick's POV, seeing as Dick's fans are already unhappy with his guest appearances elsewhere. I guess Jason's fans all want to see it, however with the way it was written, less said but still got the point across, it pleases both sides.

----------


## TheCape

> Nothing against Dick/Tim of course, but it should be known that they are not the perfect human beings as fandom tend to see them for a long time.


As a fan of Dick and Tim, i agreed with this commentary, the fanon for this 2 characthers sometimes make me role my eyes.

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## Aahz

> As a fan of Dick and Tim, i agreed with this commentary, the fanon for this 2 characthers sometimes make me role my eyes.


The thing is just that even the writers start to write them more like the fanon version, than like their "canon version" (by "canon" I mean mostly the Wolfman and Dixon).

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, going to tumblr, it's a fact that the posts defending Jason - validating his character and capabilities, not just as Red Hood but as Robin, and of course, his morality - outnumbers any other Bat characters. Fans aren't idiots so as long as Jason is written relatively well, no matter if other characters don't give him enough credit, fans will be vocal with their appreciation. On the other hand, Dick and Tim's not so complementary characteristics are starting to get dragged up for discussion. Nothing against Dick/Tim of course, but it should be known that they are not the perfect human beings as fandom tend to see them for a long time.


Tim/ Dicks faults do get looked over quite a bit. Which is annoying. What's the point of a character without flaws? That said of course Jason out numbers Bat character on that site. You would think Batman is the most unpopular dude there and that the Robins were the most popular things ever. Certain characters are big there.

----------


## TheCape

> The thing is just that even the writers start to write them more like the fanon version, than like their "canon version" (by "canon" I mean mostly the Wolfman and Dixon).


When it comes to Dick, i agreed, i usually blame Morrison for that, but you could argue that the whole thing started with Devin Grayson's run, that being althought current Dick is more similar to his fanon version, he still isn't quite there. Tim has his own problems, but i don't think that it was being like his fanon version, if anything he became the opposite of that since the post-Lewis era. The New 52 version has his problems too, but it wasn't that either. Rebirth Tim is the most close that i had seen the characther to the Dixon and Grant days, self repairing buildings and bullet trains aside.

----------


## Aahz

> When it comes to Dick, i agreed, i usually blame Morrison for that, but you could argue that the whole thing started with Devin Grayson's run, that being althought current Dick is more similar to his fanon version, he still isn't quite there.


I don't remember much from Devin Grayson's run, but at least with the King Seeley run, I had the impression that they really tried to appeal to the fans of the "fanon version" as much as possible (lots of fanservice, bring back the Romani stuff, Dick as improvising Swashbuckler...).




> Tim has his own problems, but i don't think that it was being like his fanon version, if anything he became the opposite of that since the post-Lewis era. The New 52 version has his problems too, but it wasn't that either. Rebirth Tim is the most close that i had seen the characther to the Dixon and Grant days, self repairing buildings and bullet trains aside.


At least his intelligence never reached these levels before flashpoint.

----------


## TheCape

> I don't remember much from Devin Grayson's run, but at least with the King Seeley run, I had the impression that they really tried to appeal to the fans of the "fanon version" as much as possible (lots of fanservice, bring back the Romani stuff, Dick as improvising Swashbuckler...).


Devin Grayson, sort of popularized the womanizer part, althought i guest that you could interpret it as Dick just growing more confident at dealing with girls, she did the whole "Renegade" thing, oh and she was the one that introduce that retcon of Dick being Romani. I agreed about Grayson, thought, Dick as an improviser is just weird.




> At least his intelligence never reached these levels before flashpoint.


I would said that it did, but as tactical genius, not as wizard tech, Tim sort of get saddled with that role for being the first Robin that showed attitude with computers. Althought i guest that Tynion compesate for the inteligence with Tim being below everyone in the Bat Family in regards to combat.

----------


## Aahz

> I would said that it did, but as tactical genius, not as wizard tech, Tim sort of get saddled with that role for being the first Robin that showed attitude with computers. Althought i guest that Tynion compesate for the inteligence with Tim being below everyone in the Bat Family in regards to combat.


Even appart from computers he was not that intelligent, it was in one of the #0 isses for example shown that he was able to best a SAT test while still in middleschool. Pre flashpoint Tim had problems to keep up his grades in highschool due to his Robin duties, and had iirc grades at the same level as his fried Ives. 

Btw. new 52 Tim has apparently graduated early from high school, pre flashpoint he droped out when Bruce "died" and never finished.

----------


## TheCape

> Even appart from computers he was not that intelligent, it was in one of the #0 isses for example shown that he was able to best a SAT test while still in middleschool. Pre flashpoint Tim had problems to keep up his grades in highschool due to his Robin duties, and had iirc grades at the same level as his fried Ives.
> 
> Btw. new 52 Tim has apparently graduated early from high school, pre flashpoint he droped out when Bruce "died" and never finished.


Fair enought and is true he has some problems keeping his grades, that being said, we saw so little about Tim's civilian life, that i wonder if he actually has one in the new universe.

----------


## Aioros22

Likely not, Tim`s smartness pitch catalogue was quite updated with the reboot. He was always smart but until the Red Robin run (or should we say the IC years) the tactical department was more Dick`s area whereas his was more in the research and improvisin areas. It`s quite interesting to note that as far as Pre Flashpoint publishing continuity is concerned, despite the upbringing and what likely a good deal of modern writers or fans would think, Jason was by far the most sucesseful student/Robin management among the whole pack, including Carrie who also had a similar streak of his. Kid had a teacher telling him to chill out more and study less. He even had a place for a school sweetheart (don`t recall the name, tho) presented in a few stories. 

That`s flat out more nerdy or busy than anything the old Tim ever did. Which I think is one of the things that makes Jason such a 3-d character and why Eternal writting him as the jock falls flat. 

Loedbell seems to bring in some of that feeling back (not that Winnick ever wrote Jason as any less smart than the other kids) with what showing especific flasbacks like his Criminology degree.

----------


## Aahz

> Likely not, Tim`s smartness pitch catalogue was quite updated with the reboot. He was always smart but until the Red Robin run (or should we say the IC years) the tactical department was more Dick`s area whereas his was more in the research and improvisin areas. It`s quite interesting to note that as far as Pre Flashpoint publishing continuity is concerned, despite the upbringing and what likely a good deal of modern writers or fans would think, Jason was by far the most sucesseful student/Robin management among the whole pack, including Carrie who also had a similar streak of his. Kid had a teacher telling him to chill out more and study less. He even had a place for a school sweetheart (don`t recall the name, tho) presented in a few stories.


Dick did also quite well in School, and didn't had problems untill collage. And at least the pre crisis Jason had also some problems to manage school, being Robin and having a girl friend. IIRC Jason being tiered in school was actually what caused Bruce to loose the coustody and  he actually stopped iirc being Robin for some time when he had girl friend, since Bruce was anyway teaming up with Catwoman at the time.

And his love live was also effected his grades.

Detective Comics 563.jpg

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## Aioros22

I`m not placing them as dummies, just pointing out that Post Crisis/Collins Jay gets undersold because of his _upbringing_, of which that Jason didn`t have. That Jason was a good student that had issues with grades because they took a backseat with his first real crush (who had in turn some issues with friends trying out drugs which is part of the arc) and the custody battles. He was a more normal Robin as far as dealing with the same things the others did. 

Not much different than good ol`Dick you might say, with being Robin and a Titan but again, that`s why I mentioned especifically the Collin revision. That Jason had a few missions with the Titans, had a school sweetheart, was Robin, came from the streets and yet was 2nd placed National wise as far as grades go.

----------


## Aahz

> That Jason had a few missions with the Titans, had a school sweetheart, was Robin, came from the streets and yet was 2nd placed National wise as far as grades go.


Where is the thing with "2nd placed National wise" from?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s been posted in the thread before, it`s from an Annual but I`d have to look for it again.

----------


## J. D. Guy

Hello fine friends of the thread.  :Smile: 

Here's a question for you. It's come to my attention very recently (like just last night) that, allegedly, "the majority" of fans see Jason as of Spanish decent. And I'm like "What."

The literal first time I had heard of such a thing. I found it among a place that said that Batman doesn't have as many white boys under his care as many seem to think (they cite the usual Dick examples, but not the caveats of it, like how it was a retcon [not a sin in and of itself], how the reasoning behind it was likely in poor taste, or how only somewhat recent has anyone brought that it up and otherwise that aspect of Dick's is ignored by and large since it was "revealed"). One of these things was that Jason is Spanish decent, which is news to me.

Does anyone know what that's all about? 




> Tim/ Dicks faults do get looked over quite a bit. Which is annoying. What's the point of a character without flaws? That said of course Jason out numbers Bat character on that site. You would think Batman is the most unpopular dude there and that the Robins were the most popular things ever. Certain characters are big there.


This is true. The fact that, for example, even Duke and Harper get positive acknowledgements there, even if not much still, is nothing short of _miraculous_.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Here's a question for you. It's come to my attention very recently (like just last night) that, allegedly, "the majority" of fans see Jason as of Spanish decent. And I'm like "What."
> 
> The literal first time I had heard of such a thing. I found it among a place that said that Batman doesn't have as many white boys under his care as many seem to think (they cite the usual Dick examples, but not the caveats of it, like how it was a retcon [not a sin in and of itself], how the reasoning behind it was likely in poor taste, or how only somewhat recent has anyone brought that it up and otherwise that aspect of Dick's is ignored by and large since it was "revealed"). One of these things was that Jason is Spanish decent, which is news to me.


I don't know that a "majority" of fans see him that way, but it is a head canon for some people. If someone is saying it as fact...well, it's never been stated in canon.

Lately I see more people embracing the head canon that Jason is of ASIAN descent, with a reasoning that, since Shiva said she didn't have kids but would have already had Cass at the time of the statement, then she could have been lying about Jason as well, among other factors, such as Batman and Jason looking at multiple POC women as options for his birth mom.

But these are both head canons. There's a good gen fic series with Jason and Cass as half siblings, if people are interested in that. I think there's actually more than one.

----------


## Caivu

> Hello fine friends of the thread. 
> 
> Here's a question for you. It's come to my attention very recently (like just last night) that, allegedly, "the majority" of fans see Jason as of Spanish decent. And I'm like "What."
> 
> The literal first time I had heard of such a thing. I found it among a place that said that Batman doesn't have as many white boys under his care as many seem to think (they cite the usual Dick examples, but not the caveats of it, like how it was a retcon [not a sin in and of itself], how the reasoning behind it was likely in poor taste, or how only somewhat recent has anyone brought that it up and otherwise that aspect of Dick's is ignored by and large since it was "revealed"). One of these things was that Jason is Spanish decent, which is news to me.
> 
> Does anyone know what that's all about?


It might be because of Bombshells, since he was Spanish in that.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s Batman Annual #12 and I have to stand corrected, it doesn`t specified on the pages where it`s national or not.  The story happens in Thomas Wayne High (it`s a Jason solo) so It`s likely from all the classes in that school. 







_Scuse me, but I had to stop the KGBeast."_


Anyhow, an average over 94% between Robin duties and Titan missions as well a little dating? They had to upgrade Timbo to Reed Richards Jr to top that.

----------


## joybeans

Don't post images with URLs to piracy sites.

----------


## Alycat

> Hello fine friends of the thread. 
> 
> Here's a question for you. It's come to my attention very recently (like just last night) that, allegedly, "the majority" of fans see Jason as of Spanish decent. And I'm like "What."
> 
> The literal first time I had heard of such a thing. I found it among a place that said that Batman doesn't have as many white boys under his care as many seem to think (they cite the usual Dick examples, but not the caveats of it, like how it was a retcon [not a sin in and of itself], how the reasoning behind it was likely in poor taste, or how only somewhat recent has anyone brought that it up and otherwise that aspect of Dick's is ignored by and large since it was "revealed"). One of these things was that Jason is Spanish decent, which is news to me.
> 
> Does anyone know what that's all about? 
> 
> 
> ...


All of it can be explained by it being tumblr. They also somehow manage to ignore how racist that headcanon is. Everyone has be be special, which is why Asian Jason is also spreading. A lot of Tim bashing now as well. But hey these things come and go.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> It might be because of Bombshells, since he was Spanish in that.


Yes, that is true as well.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s fanon, altho I do agree, the Robin squad isn`t all them "whiteboys". Not sure Dick being a Romani is a retcon as much as being expanded background. 

Jason has never been anything other than American, If a writer down the line ends up expanding anything of that nature, it will also be added material. The Spanish bit can only have come from that Bombshells issue that happens during the their civil war.

----------


## Aioros22

> Don't post images with URLs to piracy sites.


Ok, didn`t know Tumblr pages were off limits.

----------


## joybeans

> Ok, didn`t know Tumblr pages were off limits.


Tumblr links are fine, but there was a URL to a piracy site in the bottom right corner in the image you posted.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I always pictured Jason being of Irish Decent.

----------


## RedBird

> I always pictured Jason being of Irish Decent.


Same here. I feel as though I remember an early precrisis comic where the Todds (circus parents) imply that they are of Irish decent but Im not 100% on that, havent been able to find that reference since.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Same here. I feel as though I remember an early precrisis comic where the Todds (circus parents) imply that they are of Irish decent but Im not 100% on that, havent been able to find that reference since.


I feel like him being Irish makes sense. He has that tough Irish demeanor around him.

----------


## Aahz

> It`s Batman Annual #12 and I have to stand corrected, it doesn`t specified on the pages where it`s national or not.  The story happens in Thomas Wayne High (it`s a Jason solo) so It`s likely from all the classes in that school.


I know the story, but I can't remeber anything about Jason being the second best student (natoinal or not) and I also don't see that referenced in the scans.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hello fine friends of the thread. 
> 
> Here's a question for you. It's come to my attention very recently (like just last night) that, allegedly, "the majority" of fans see Jason as of Spanish decent. And I'm like "What."
> 
> The literal first time I had heard of such a thing. I found it among a place that said that Batman doesn't have as many white boys under his care as many seem to think (they cite the usual Dick examples, but not the caveats of it, like how it was a retcon [not a sin in and of itself], how the reasoning behind it was likely in poor taste, or how only somewhat recent has anyone brought that it up and otherwise that aspect of Dick's is ignored by and large since it was "revealed"). One of these things was that Jason is Spanish decent, which is news to me.
> 
> Does anyone know what that's all about? 
> 
> 
> ...


Reminder

----------


## Alycat

> Reminder


Someone should tell them that. Asian, Latino, bi,ace Jason is mad popular there.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I don't know that a "majority" of fans see him that way, but it is a head canon for some people. If someone is saying it as fact...well, it's never been stated in canon.
> 
> Lately I see more people embracing the head canon that Jason is of ASIAN descent, with a reasoning that, since Shiva said she didn't have kids but would have already had Cass at the time of the statement, then she could have been lying about Jason as well, among other factors, such as Batman and Jason looking at multiple POC women as options for his birth mom.
> 
> But these are both head canons. There's a good gen fic series with Jason and Cass as half siblings, if people are interested in that. I think there's actually more than one.


Ah, it's just a head canon. Like those who depict Jason still with that white tuft of hair in their art.

I'm even more surprised to hear Asian, even in margin, to be honest.




> It might be because of Bombshells, since he was Spanish in that.





> Yes, that is true as well.


So that's where that came from. Isn't the Bombshells universe like an Elseworlds?




> All of it can be explained by it being tumblr. They also somehow manage to ignore how racist that headcanon is. Everyone has be be special, which is why Asian Jason is also spreading. A lot of Tim bashing now as well. But hey these things come and go.


I see.

I didn't know Tim bashing was a thing, though. It's usually the opposite "problem", if anything.




> Reminder


I also didn't know this was thing. It's probably "old" by standards of today.

Also, _ouch_ at dat jab. Dear Lord, even some other writers are doing it.  :EEK!: 

EDIT: Also, thank you you guys.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

I believe it's a side effect of the newer who is blogs which set about showing how characters actually are in canon because a surprising amount of people get their information from fandom and haven't actually read this books. It's a fun idea because fandom is often very wrong on a lot of things , almost annoyingly so to the point you wonder how someone likes a character to begin with. So it's to correct a lot of mis information about Jason. At the same time people forget that the person doing them is also a bias source because it's their interpretation of the material. So the recent one about Tim is going particularly hard on showing his bad aspects that fanon ignores, but also sort of paints his as bland white Boy misogynist which is where bashing occurs recently. Also the annual didn't help.

----------


## kiwiliko

> How's your drawing going by the way?


My dumb butt decided I should work on one of the other 500 work in progresses I had going on for Jason.
Let's pretend I didn't just butcher the sketches, someone here really like Cass so whoever you are, this Cass is for you even if half of these will never be finished or see the light of day.

How'd your fic read day turn out @G? 
The author made another one of those research posts for Jason's full injuries in Arkham knight so I might try to link that here at some point.

----------


## Aahz

> So the recent one about Tim is going particularly hard on showing his bad aspects that fanon ignores, but also sort of paints his as bland white Boy misogynist which is where bashing occurs recently. Also the annual didn't help.


Can you give a link?

Btw. Bruce and Dick were also kind of sexist back in the day, iirc they tried for example to force Batwoman to end her career, and Dick even tricked a Girl ("Roberta the Girl-Wonder") into losing her mask in public.

----------


## Aahz

> Lately I see more people embracing the head canon that Jason is of ASIAN descent, with a reasoning that, since Shiva said she didn't have kids but would have already had Cass at the time of the statement, then she could have been lying about Jason as well, among other factors, such as Batman and Jason looking at multiple POC women as options for his birth mom.


The thing is the Shiva was iirc originally not fully Asian herself.
It is also imo a little wired that most people seem to see (or at least draw) Cass as fully Asian, while she is at best Half-Asian.

----------


## Alycat

> Can you give a link?
> 
> Btw. Bruce and Dick were also kind of sexist back in the day, iirc they tried for example to force Batwoman to end her career, and Dick even tricked a Girl ("Roberta the Girl-Wonder") into losing her mask in public.


This should work https://whothefuckistimdrake.tumblr.com

----------


## kaimaciel

> It might be because of Bombshells, since he was Spanish in that.


The Spanish population is mostly Caucasian. I'm Portuguese and I live near the border. What is it with the USA media thinking both Spain and Portugal are Latino?

----------


## Aahz

> The Spanish population is mostly Caucasian. I'm Portuguese and I live near the border. What is it with the USA media thinking both Spain and Portugal are Latino?


And the Bombshell Jason was iirc Basque.

----------


## Aioros22

> The Spanish population is mostly Caucasian. I'm Portuguese and I live near the border. What is it with the USA media thinking both Spain and Portugal are Latino?


Tell me about it  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> I know the story, but I can't remeber anything about Jason being the second best student (natoinal or not) and I also don't see that referenced in the scans.


If you know the story then you know it`s about some kids who are aquaintances to Jason who want to sneak and cheat their way into high grades. There`s virtually the panel where they see the list of highest grades and Jason`s the second highest percentage at 95% without any " help" of theirs. This is supported by a teacher in the beginning of the story claiming Jason is all work and study and no chill.

----------


## Aioros22

> My dumb butt decided I should work on one of the other 500 work in progresses I had going on for Jason.
> Let's pretend I didn't just butcher the sketches, someone here really like Cass so whoever you are, this Cass is for you even if half of these will never be finished or see the light of day.
> 
> How'd your fic read day turn out @G? 
> The author made another one of those research posts for Jason's full injuries in Arkham knight so I might try to link that here at some point.


It`s already looking Sharp Ki! Please keep us posted about the progress  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> There`s virtually the panel where they see the list of highest grades and Jason`s the second highest percentage at 95% without any " help" of theirs.


Yeah but that just a list of kids with a last name that starts with "T".

----------


## G-Potion

> Someone should tell them that. Asian, Latino, bi,ace Jason is mad popular there.


Tumblr knew about it. They brought the fight to Lobdell's twitter, it was ugly. It was at the start of Rebirth so tumblr was still very unforgiving of anything Lobdell said.

----------


## G-Potion

> My dumb butt decided I should work on one of the other 500 work in progresses I had going on for Jason.
> Let's pretend I didn't just butcher the sketches, someone here really like Cass so whoever you are, this Cass is for you even if half of these will never be finished or see the light of day.
> 
> How'd your fic read day turn out @G? 
> The author made another one of those research posts for Jason's full injuries in Arkham knight so I might try to link that here at some point.


Oooh these are looking good. I have a feeling they are both inspired by something? I particularly like how detailed Jason's clothes are in the first pic, and the mask Dick is holding is a curiosity. On the other hand, the second pic looks like it will end up having very lovely warm colors and spectacular background. Nice work!

@my fic reading: I realized that in order to read IWGA, I need to read Red which is another 100k words. I haven't managed it yet, but I did read a bunch of oneshots from the author, so it counts yes? On the upside, the drawing has seen much better progress. I'll try to get it done by the end of the week, hopefully!

----------


## Alycat

> Tumblr knew about it. They brought the fight to Lobdell's twitter, it was ugly. It was at the start of Rebirth so tumblr was still very unforgiving of anything Lobdell said.


 Oh yeah I know. It just baffles me that they insist otherwise. Headcanons are fine. You do you, but some people legit try to scrap by and use canon to stretch what they think is true when the truth is usually  so simple. Like the Shiva is Jason's mom thing.

----------


## TheCape

> Oh yeah I know. It just baffles me that they insist otherwise. Headcanons are fine. You do you, but some people legit try to scrap by and use canon to stretch what they think is true when the truth is usually so simple. Like the Shiva is Jason's mom thing.


When it comes to canon vs fanon (characterization wise), this is my preffered comparison:
http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...est-difference

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah but that just a list of kids with a last name that starts with "T".


An average score of *95%* no matter where in the alphabet is found, places him at the top of the school at the _very least._ 

That, plus a  teacher telling him to slow down in the beginning of the story with two classmates gossiping around how Jason was all work and no play tell us the rest and this is a Jason who needs to juggle that sucess rate with being Robin as seen by his monologue mentioning fighting the likes of KGBeast as the excuse to not take extracurricular activities, of which would possibly make his average higher with extra credits. 

It`s like, you go bananas over a character not complimeting Jason the way you want but something like this is "eh" for you.

----------


## Aahz

> An average score of *95%* no matter where in the alphabet is found, places him at the top of the school at the _very least._ 
> 
> That, plus a  teacher telling him to slow down in the beginning of the story with two classmates gossiping around how Jason was all work and no play tell us the rest and this is a Jason who needs to juggle that sucess rate with being Robin as seen by his monologue mentioning fighting the likes of KGBeast as the excuse to not take extracurricular activities, of which would possibly make his average higher with extra credits. 
> 
> It`s like, you go bananas over a character not complimeting Jason the way you want but something like this is "eh" for you.


I don't  think it is eh, my point is just that the thing with the "second best" that you mentioned isn't mentioned anywhere.

And like I said Dick was also a good student.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah and then in most continuity revisions always end up dropping his studies before he becomes Nigthwing.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah and then in most continuity revisions always end up dropping his studies before he becomes Nigthwing.


And? Jason never even went to collage.

The thing is Jason is canonically much smarter than most fans and writers give him credit for, but at least when you go back to Dicks original run as Robin it was quite similar. 

Teen Titans V1 #13.jpg

Teen Titans V1 #17.jpg


But now with Damian, Tim and all the other super geniuses, thats mostly down played.

----------


## Alycat

I do guess the genius aspect means little cause everyone is the family is intelligent. I think it was the Red Robin writer who pointed out that they are intelligent in different ways. Which is good. Dick dropping out doesn't make him less of a hard worker or less smart than Jason. He just wasn't interested in pursuing a traditional education.

----------


## Godlike13

> And? Jason never even went to collage.


Did he even finish high school?

----------


## Alycat

> Did he even finish high school?


 He couldn't because he would've been dead right?

----------


## Aioros22

> And? Jason never even went to collage.


By the same reason he didn`t graduated from Highschool, _he was killed._ 

The difference remains that narratively speaking Jason saw his studies outside of his tutelage under Bruce every bit as essential or sometimes even more important than being Robin. That`s how big a gap lies between what fandom and some writers would led you to believe and how he used to be written and _that_ use of narrative is something the others hardly had. 

As far as being played down, maybe more than it used to be but that`s exactly the essence of what Dick said about him in the Annual.

----------


## Caivu

Scene from issue #16?

Screenshot_20170908-001600.jpg

----------


## Tony Stark

> By the same reason he didn`t graduated from Highschool, _he was killed._ 
> 
> The difference remains that narratively speaking Jason saw his studies outside of his tutelage under Bruce every bit as essential or sometimes even more important than being Robin. That`s how big a gap lies between what fandom and some writers would led you to believe and how he used to be written and _that_ use of narrative is something the others hardly had. 
> 
> As far as being played down, maybe more than it used to be but that`s exactly the essence of what Dick said about him in the Annual.


Well stated.

----------


## G-Potion

> Scene from issue #16?
> 
> Screenshot_20170908-001600.jpg


This makes me so hyped and then I remember SS will be in there...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is actually a reflection on a boomerang.

----------


## Aioros22

Image looking small, is that Jason in the reflection?

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> 


Ooh I've never seen this. Really wish Jason gets to play in Lantern sandbox one day.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Image looking small, is that Jason in the reflection?


Yes, Jason in chains.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here



Also, March having fun

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...99690105655297

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...00271918571520

----------


## G-Potion

He looks like he's minutes away from getting out of those chains to be honest.

----------


## Aioros22

- "Who`re you?"

- "Capti`n Boomerang"

- "That`s _hilarious_"

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I believe it's a side effect of the newer who is blogs which set about showing how characters actually are in canon because a surprising amount of people get their information from fandom and haven't actually read this books. It's a fun idea because fandom is often very wrong on a lot of things , almost annoyingly so to the point you wonder how someone likes a character to begin with. So it's to correct a lot of mis information about Jason. At the same time people forget that the person doing them is also a bias source because it's their interpretation of the material. So the recent one about Tim is going particularly hard on showing his bad aspects that fanon ignores, but also sort of paints his as bland white Boy misogynist which is where bashing occurs recently. Also the annual didn't help.


Ah I see. I read through the link you gave, and although the guy fancies him/herself thorough, they already kind of undermine themselves by putting a limit on the canon they're willing to look through.

Still, before this, I would have never thought anyone would be so openly critical of Tim and his introduction. I've only seen one person on this forum, for example, that I noticed disdains Tim, and that's only really a hindsight reaction brought upon by the overwhelming favoritism he tends to get here, even to the point where other characters will get slandered "in Tim's name". Other than that, I always thought Tim was "lubbed" by everyone (or maybe that's an illusion because of a vocal minority fanbase or something).




> When it comes to canon vs fanon (characterization wise), this is my preffered comparison:
> http://theflyingwonder.tumblr.com/po...est-difference


This is interesting, but I wouldn't take it as gospel.

This person is very selective with who they count and talk of as part of the Batfamily, including speaking on someone I'm surprised they even thought about and ignoring others who probably should have been mentioned. Their other problem lies in the fact that their canon knowledge used to analyze the characters only goes so far, which is noticeable with Jason, Tim, and Stephanie, especially Jason and Stephanie (or was it Cassandra; memory's already fading of the last night I read it). For example, it doesn't account for how Jason and Tim are characterized as being close post Jason's resurrection and UTRH in the New 52. They don't seem to acknowledge past Flashpoint at all in fact, which I feels cheapens things and showcases fanon getting in the way of canon, which dis-serves the whole point of trying to put the two into perspective (i.e., "only the canon _I_ want counts", in turn making it fanon).

I also couldn't help but be amused at how they consider Stephanie to, even arguably, be the 2nd best positive influence on Damian after Dick, and reference it more than once. If I'm not off, Damian has been in existence without Stephanie's apparently awesome influence longer than he has with it by 2017, and even if she was a positive influence once, that hasn't been the case for anything of Damian post-resurrection.

Maybe that facet of things lies somewhere along with Colin Wilkes, who was also an overall positive influence on Damian that hasn't been referenced in forever?

----------


## TheCape

Actually, the poster acknoleged that he is basing his breakdown on the Pre 52 charactherizations, it doesn't take into account post Flashpoint,  i said that is my favorite breakdown because is way more accurate that the presentations of the batfamily in fandom (and some canon stories, both pre and post reboot), the only part that i put in doubt is Steph being that close to Damian before the reboot.

----------


## Aahz

If you would include both continuities (or in case of the older characters even the pre crisis continuities) you would have probably to do in some cases different write ups for each continuity. 

The new 52 version have in some cases for example become more similar to the fanon versions.

Btw. what I really would like to see at some point (maybe as a 80 page giant) would be (maybe as kind of a what if scenario), four times the same plot but every time with another Robin to highlight a little bit the strength and flaws of every one.

----------


## TheCape

> If you would include both continuities (or in case of the older characters even the pre crisis continuities) you would have probably to do in some cases different write ups for each continuity.


Probably, althought this in particular just focused in the 86 to 2011 period.




> The new 52 version have in some cases for example become more similar to the fanon versions.


I never thought that would came the day when Jason (and Damian, sorta) would be the characther that i most pleased with his representation in canon until this year, i mean i was a fan of Winnick's Jason and i wish that he would have written more with him, but i sort of give up about that guy appearing again or another writter being able to understand his nuance, but Rebirth Todd, is pretty satisfactory middle ground.




> Btw. what I really would like to see at some point (maybe as a 80 page giant) would be (maybe as kind of a what if scenario), four times the same plot but every time with another Robin to highlight a little bit the strength and flaws of every one.


Agreed.

10 char

----------


## Aioros22

Badass moments of the week:

----------


## Aioros22

https://leandrodourado.deviantart.com/

----------


## Assam

> Badass moments of the week:


Red Hood may have grown on me thanks to Rebirth, but RobinJay is still the best.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Red Hood may have grown on me thanks to Rebirth, but RobinJay is still the best.


I have much love for RobinJay. Jason was, after all, the one wearing the Robin suit when I started buying comics regularly even if Dick was still Robin in the first Batman comic I read.

----------


## Aioros22

The first Robin I`ve read was Jay in the story where the Penguin is looking to reform and has a valentine that vouches for him. Jason sitting waiting for Batman at the parole twice with Bruce coming out looking furious with him just replying "went bad, huh?" made me an instant fan. 

He had quite the innocent/shy moments like uttering words real fast like any real kid would to get out of detention  :Wink:  but mostly he brought a keen commitmentl of sass you had to applaud.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, that sass was what drew me to the character.

----------


## Aioros22

The sass on this kid. 

_Nobody pats me pal, unless it`s pointy ears_

----------


## G-Potion

> Badass moments of the week:


It was foretold. Red bucket.  :EEK!:

----------


## Aioros22

And what if Crane`s fear was the Red Hood? Oh Dayum!

----------


## kiwiliko

> The sass on this kid. 
> 
> _Nobody pats me pal, unless it`s pointy ears_


Sassy robin Jay was the best. I can't even name a fav moment but him on that babydate with Carla as Bats interrogated in the back of a bar comes close. 

First time I saw a comic that didn't treat prostitute characters like subhumans and I remember that scene really stuck with me about Bruce and Jason

----------


## Tony Stark

> Badass moments of the week:


Thanks for sharing these. Bring back great memories.

----------


## Assam

We're really going to be spending more time with the Suicide Squad than the 'Tec team in RHatO. Just keep giving me reasons to hate these losers, DC.

----------


## G-Potion

Suddenly remember that Rob Levin is the new editor now. Need to include his name when twitting the team from now on.

----------


## okiedokiewo

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
"BIZARRO REBORN" part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad-Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn't kill them, and they don't kill each other, what's hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job! 
RATED T+

----------


## okiedokiewo

Anyone read Metal #2? From some other threads, it seems Jason sort of made an appearance.

----------


## Caivu

> Anyone read Metal #2? From some other threads, it seems Jason sort of made an appearance.


He helped serve as a distraction to the Justice League along with Nightwing, Batwoman, Batgirl, and Batwing. He's not seen except in a Batman disguise.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
> "BIZARRO REBORN" part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad-Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn't kill them, and they don't kill each other, what's hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job! 
> RATED T+


This could be... fun.

----------


## AJpyro

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
> "BIZARRO REBORN" part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad-Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn't kill them, and they don't kill each other, what's hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job! 
> RATED T+


Ok then. Hope its just a cameo thing and quick.

----------


## Aahz

I hope we get a Red Hood vs. Dead Shot fight.

----------


## Aioros22

I wonder if the reason Kate is going after them has to do with the Colony resources after all. In this issue Bizarro`s intel also led them to Arkham which they will be in the next issues.

----------


## Caivu

> I wonder if the reason Kate is going after them has to do with the Colony resources after all. In this issue Bizarro`s intel also led them to Arkham which they will be in the next issues.


Could be. I was thinking it's related to that quantum door thing. Batman's going to find out that they basically just strolled into the Batcave, and realize how dangerous Bizarro is now.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> He helped serve as a distraction to the Justice League along with Nightwing, Batwoman, Batgirl, and Batwing. He's not seen except in a Batman disguise.


Thanks. I knew he just appeared vaguely, but wasn't sure of the specifics. Always good to see him working with the fam, though.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh yes, another good one. 

"Bruce, don`t be a dick, it`s my turf and I`m handling it"

"You traitor, you said nothing about magical doors in my cave! My cave!

"That is what upsets you? That I can walk in here while you`re sitting in the latrine reading the Gotham Journal? Who do you think you`re talking to, the Joker?!"


Incoming 3...2...

----------


## kiwiliko

> We're really going to be spending more time with the Suicide Squad than the 'Tec team in RHatO. Just keep giving me reasons to hate these losers, DC.


Don't know if the outlaws team is the right place to put that blame. It doesn't seem like Lobdell has much control over crossover and other DC team appearances choices. Reasonably it does make sense Tec should have more time here than suicide squad though but DC isn't known for consistency.

----------


## Assam

> Don't know if the outlaws team is the right place to put that blame. It doesn't seem like Lobdell has much control over crossover and other DC team appearances choices. Reasonably it does make sense Tec should have more time here than suicide squad though but DC isn't known for consistency.


LOL, I wasn't calling the Outlaws losers (I dig this current bunch), I was referring to the Suicide Squad. HATE them. 

Mostly I'm just disappointed because I _really_ want to see a dynamic form between Jason and Cass. We know what her relationship with Tim is supposed to look like from the old days, but we only have the vaguest idea of what a typical interaction between her and Dick or Damian would look like, and she's never really gotten to interact with Jason, which, as we've established on both this and the Cass threads, is a relationship with a TON of potential. She's gonna be adopted in the next year and a half; she should know her brothers beforehand.

----------


## Alycat

Nothing can be as bad as Tec appearance in Birds of Prey today but yeah not looking forward to Squad. What do you mean Cass is getting adopted soon?

----------


## Caivu

> Nothing can be as bad as Tec appearance in Birds of Prey today


It was bad?  :Confused: 

Weird, maybe, with Steph being there when she's supposed to be rocky with the others, and Luke and JPV missing.

----------


## Assam

> What do you mean Cass is getting adopted soon?


I talked to Tynion and asked him about the adoption. He told me that he did want to bring it back, and he strongly implied, stuttering and saying "All I can say..." that it was going to happen, and that it would be connected to the arc where he find out what Shiva whispered to her. He's got things planned out till issue #1000, and if double shipping continues, that's a year and half from now.

----------


## kiwiliko

> LOL, I wasn't calling the Outlaws losers (I dig this current bunch), I was referring to the Suicide Squad. HATE them. 
> 
> Mostly I'm just disappointed because I _really_ want to see a dynamic form between Jason and Cass. We know what her relationship with Tim is supposed to look like from the old days, but we only have the vaguest idea of what a typical interaction between her and Dick or Damian would look like, and she's never really gotten to interact with Jason, which, as we've established on both this and the Cass threads, is a relationship with a TON of potential. She's gonna be adopted in the next year and a half; she should know her brothers beforehand.


Yesyesyesyesyes (sorry that was my bad, totally misread your comment)
I can't express how much I want them to meet their batsister. The potential for a Jason and Cass meeting goes so much beyond their personalities given their history and beliefs coming out of their traumas. On a humorous hand, I've also seen more than a few posts about just how ridiculous the language both these characters like to use. Cass who once tried to imitate TV talk and Jason "goodness gracious I've been bamboozled" Todd. 
Question: have you seen that theory drifting about Jason being a halfbrother to Cass. I think someone speculated that since Shiva lied about Cass in death of family, they thought there was a chance she lied about Jason being her son too.
Not sure how I feel about the theory in general but it is one of the more interesting things coming from timeline inconsistencies.

----------


## Alycat

> It was bad? 
> 
> Weird, maybe, with Steph being there when she's supposed to be rocky with the others, and Luke and JPV missing.


It was so nothing and the situation was so dumb and ridiculous. 




> I talked to Tynion and asked him about the adoption. He told me that he did want to bring it back, and he strongly implied, stuttering and saying "All I can say..." that it was going to happen, and that it would be connected to the arc where he find out what Shiva whispered to her. He's got things planned out till issue #1000, and if double shipping continues, that's a year and half from now.


Ah I don't believe him but we'll see. I still think Duke is next if anyone was getting adopted and even then they don't seem keen on referring them o the current group as sons on a consistent basis.

----------


## Assam

> I can't express how much I want them to meet their batsister. The potential for a Jason and Cass meeting goes so much beyond their personalities given their history and beliefs coming out of their traumas. On a humorous hand, I've also seen more than a few posts about just how ridiculous the language both these characters like to use. Cass who once tried to imitate TV talk and Jason "goodness gracious I've been bamboozled" Todd.


Cass quoting TV and movies has happened a couple times (even Star Wars once), though nothing has topped, "You bet your sweet patootie, baby". I'm positive Cass's quoting of Shakespeare in 'Tec is his way of calling back to both this, and Babs's repeated attempts to get Cass to come to acting classes with her. 

Also, in addition to the things we've discussed regarding why Cass and Jason would bounce off each other so well, something else I realized is that Cass historically and Jason currently are both closest to Tim. Considering DC hates/doesn't care about the middle BatKids, it'd be cool to see them stick together. 




> Question: have you seen that theory drifting about Jason being a halfbrother to Cass. I think someone speculated that since Shiva lied about Cass in death of family, they thought there was a chance she lied about Jason being her son too.
> Not sure how I feel about the theory in general but it is one of the more interesting things coming from timeline inconsistencies.


I'm a familiar with the theory. Not a big supporter of it, but if somehow beyond reason it became canon, I wouldn't object to it.

----------


## Assam

> Ah I don't believe him but we'll see.


He's a pretty honest guy, both from what I've heard and based on his answers to my other questions, so I see no reason to think he'd lie.

----------


## Caivu

> It was so nothing and the situation was so dumb and ridiculous.


Not really. It was sort of a tease of the next arc, since at least three of them are showing up in it, and probably all of them.

----------


## G-Potion

> I hope we get a Red Hood vs. Dead Shot fight.


I actually want to see this. Influenced from watching too much Injustice tournaments.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Also, in addition to the things we've discussed regarding why Cass and Jason would bounce off each other so well, something else I realized is that Cass historically and Jason currently are both closest to Tim. Considering DC hates/doesn't care about the middle BatKids, it'd be cool to see them stick together.


Middle kids represent!

I actually don't mind seeing Jason be close to Tim as much as some other opinions I've heard here. Feels like DC tried to do a middle kids dynamic with them while Dick and Damian got the oldest/youngest thing happening (which while super cute, did also soften Dick up a bunch to have him work with Damian's arc). Jason's pit mad attempt on Tim's life is usually cited as the most antagonistic interaction between the two but I always assumed Tim would have a lot more to take out on Dick because Dick's stripping of his role as Robin during an incredibly stressful time as his loved ones die around him was such a personal move. 

There's so many spiteful fanworks made about the general shovelling aside of all of them I can easily see why someone would ask for Tim Jay and Cass to work together.
Just in general though, middle kids in batfam deserve so much better, hear hear!

----------


## Jovos2099

Is anyone else here getting a https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon vibe from what is happening to bizzaro.

----------


## RedBird

> Sassy robin Jay was the best. I can't even name a fav moment but him on that babydate with Carla as Bats interrogated in the back of a bar comes close. 
> First time I saw a comic that didn't treat prostitute characters like subhumans and I remember that scene really stuck with me about Bruce and Jason


Oh I love that as well, and it wasn't just that she wasn't treated like dirt, rather that the comic presented her in such a lovely light with Jason and Bruce went out of his way to tell Jay that she deserved the utmost respect.








> Anyone read Metal #2? From some other threads, it seems Jason sort of made an appearance.


Yeah along with some other batfam members, which was pretty cool, its nice to see them all work within a team. Also I chuckled at the codename: Family.




> Mostly I'm just disappointed because I _really_ want to see a dynamic form between Jason and Cass. We know what her relationship with Tim is supposed to look like from the old days, but we only have the vaguest idea of what a typical interaction between her and Dick or Damian would look like, and she's never really gotten to interact with Jason, which, as we've established on both this and the Cass threads, is a relationship with a TON of potential. She's gonna be adopted in the next year and a half; she should know her brothers beforehand.


I second this!

----------


## Rac7d*

when jason get to be so nice? That annual was weird. Also is the book anticlimatic, with such heavy hitters, I mean artemis can give wonder woman workout and bizzaro is natural disater inn the right mood

----------


## RedBird

Also Jason appeared in the newest Gotham Garage, for anyone following. As an enemy of course.

----------


## G-Potion

It's funny how his helmet is more different from canon Red Hood and Wingman than some of his gang's. On the other hand, it seems to be the only one that doesn't feature the bat ears.

----------


## G-Potion

> when jason get to be so nice? That annual was weird. Also is the book anticlimatic, with such heavy hitters, I mean artemis can give wonder woman workout and bizzaro is natural disater inn the right mood


He started getting nice like... two series ago?

----------


## Aioros22

> when jason get to be so nice? That annual was weird. Also is the book anticlimatic, with such heavy hitters, I mean artemis can give wonder woman workout and bizzaro is natural disater inn the right mood


Nice to _whom_? People he considers his family? He`s _always_ been that way since he was a kid. 

This issue is a setup for the coming arcs what do you mean by anticlimatic? That they`re using their collective strenght to clean the Underworld instead of Justice League affairs? They`re posing as criminals.

----------


## Assam

> Nice to _whom_? People he considers his family? He`s _always_ been that way since he was a kid.


Yeah, he may have been a sassy punk to the criminals he beat up, but really, as far as how he treated the people he cared about, he was arguably nicer than Tim. (Though TBF, that has more to do with the version of Batman Tim worked with) And even as Red Hood, there was his relationship with Scarlet Pre-FP, and from the little I've read and heard, he was super chill with OOC Roy and Kory. 

Also, side note, while I can tolerate the original Outlaws run being in continuity overall, when Lobdell eventually brings Roy and Kory back into the fold, I _really_ hope there's a throwaway line or something that shows that the former casually killing people is officially out of continuity.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nice to _whom_? People he considers his family? He`s _always_ been that way since he was a kid. 
> 
> This issue is a setup for the coming arcs what do you mean by anticlimatic? That they`re using their collective strenght to clean the Underworld instead of Justice League affairs? They`re posing as criminals.


I think he meant the battle in the Annual?

----------


## Aioros22

If a reader only reads stuff like _Battle For The Cowl_ and _Nigthwing OYL_ I guess that`s the general idea. Always good to remember that in one, there`s the actual plot point of Jason losing his marbles afer listening to Batman`s message (which made Bruce look like a bloody coward by the way so it`s good they aren`t continuity referenced any longer) and the other was simply erased since it stunk of editorial shit. They wanted to kill Dick, they didn`t, the end, there`s no reason for the story to exist anymore. 

Outside of that, he`s always cared. Even if you get too stuck with Under The Red Hood and Arkham Knight, he still cares. Winnick makes always clear that while Jason fought Bruce it was the angry plea of a son to a father whom he felt abandoned and forgotten by. Tought love but love nonetheless (and Lodbell followed suit since he`s always shown in flashbacks Jason standing over him and about to shoot except he never does) and in AK he ends up saving him and taking Scarecrow down. In the end one should never forget either that this *storyline* is always the beginning of Jason`s second life, not the permanent status quo, not the end. The beginning. His emotions are overrun, he`s justifiably angry and he`s dealing with it in loco, especially with the effects of the Lazarus Pit or whatnot in consideration. 

As for the Outlaws. Jason breaks away from Roy exactly because of that, he does not want Roy tainted by what he is, which is one the most awesome character moments of Jason ever and one of the most simbolic gestores of friendship you can read about. That finale was fantastic in every way. As for Kory (sorry, Assam, really do) that would be hardly a concern. Koryander is not a pacifist and far as I recall never truly was. Yes, her family _tried_ to be in their new ruling and her sister was always into conflits but she`s warrior cast and always have been. Under her creators she always had that issue of lethal force when dealing with Dick`s restrictions and with the Outlaws since the most casual killings they`ve done were in war conflits in space I`m equally hardly thinking she`d lose that much sleep.

----------


## Assam

> . As for Kory (sorry, Assam, really do) that would be hardly a concern. Koryander is not a pacifist and far as I recall never truly was. Yes, her family _tried_ to be in their new ruling and her sister was always into conflits but she`s warrior cast and always have been. Under her creators she always had that issue of lethal force when dealing with Dick`s restrictions and with the Outlaws since the most casual killings they`ve done were in war conflits in space I`m equally hardly thinking she`d lose that much sleep.


I said the "former" not the "latter". I've got ZERO problem with Kory killing people in combat. It's in character for her. It's Roy killing that was an IMMEDIATE red flag for me for the book. If the trucker hat on the cover was a "What the Hell are they doing?" moment, his killing made it clear to me that Lobdell would not be writing Roy. (The rest of the first issue in how he was written cemented that point)

----------


## Aioros22

Ah he meant the Annua about the anticlimatic? Sorry Rac7d, didn`t get it.  Yeah I guess it`s a bit anticlimatic so far. That said, as noted, it took a combination of Circe`s magic and the arcane of the Lazarus Pit to control them. But as far as the fight goes they`re on equal grounds so far.

Badly coreographed at that, mind you but still on equal grounds. The only thing I didn`t like was Batman kicking Artemis back after he blocks her sword with an axe (something I first misread when making the review on this thread awhile ago) but to no consequence. Bizarro punched Superman into Wonder Woman, Jason freed himself and has Batman on the ground..not terrible. 

But as far as characters go, they`re demons now. They aren`r thinking like the genuine articles.

----------


## Aioros22

> I said the "former" not the "latter". I've got ZERO problem with Kory killing people in combat. It's in character for her. It's Roy killing that was an IMMEDIATE red flag for me for the book. If the trucker hat on the cover was a "What the Hell are they doing?" moment, his killing made it clear to me that Lobdell would not be writing Roy. (The rest of the first issue in how he was written cemented that point)


RATHO also starts with being first time we see Roy after his deep end and struggle with his addition. It`s different, granted, no Liam will do that but the damage hath been done.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ah he meant the Annua about the anticlimatic? Sorry Rac7d, didn`t get it.  Yeah I guess it`s a bit anticlimatic so far. That said, as noted, it took a combination of Circe`s magic and the arcane of the Lazarus Pit to control them. But as far as the fight goes they`re on equal grounds so far.
> 
> Badly coreographed at that, mind you but still on equal grounds. The only thing I didn`t like was Batman kicking Artemis back after he blocks her sword with an axe (something I first misread when making the review on this thread awhile ago) but to no consequence. Bizarro punched Superman into Wonder Woman, Jason freed himself and has Batman on the ground..not terrible. 
> 
> But as far as characters go, they`re demons now. They aren`r thinking like the genuine articles.


Nooo that was Trinity. Annual was KGBeast battle.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Geez, you can tell it`s a day off, I`m not thinking straight. Apologizes everyone, I was looking like a DC editor now complicating something simple *drinks coffee*

They did subdue him fairly quick without wanting to kill him but this Beast was clearly upgraded with the no selling shots he was pulling. Yeah, the Annual was anticlimatic as fudge  :Big Grin:  the end.

----------


## Alycat

KGBeast was literally an afterthought. But that was fine cause I didn't care about him. I was there for the awkward Brothers.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Is anyone else here getting a https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowers_for_Algernon vibe from what is happening to bizzaro.


Absolutely.
There's an amazing amount of references made in RHATO that add so much to the characters. Jason and Bizarro from #7 are a George and Lenny with their happy ending. Bizarro as well has Charlie's role but he spends the entirety of his temporary intel on making his new friends happy. It's such a good contrast to Charlie who spends his time going through an internalized discovery of all the negativity around him.
And Jason looked so dang proud of the big guy, Rhato is going to break my heart I know it.

----------


## TheCape

> I actually don't mind seeing Jason be close to Tim as much as some other opinions I've heard here. Feels like DC tried to do a middle kids dynamic with them while Dick and Damian got the oldest/youngest thing happening (which while super cute, did also soften Dick up a bunch to have him work with Damian's arc). Jason's pit mad attempt on Tim's life is usually cited as the most antagonistic interaction between the two but I always assumed Tim would have a lot more to take out on Dick because Dick's stripping of his role as Robin during an incredibly stressful time as his loved ones die around him was such a personal move.


I don't mind their friendship, but just like Barbara being back as a Batgirl, i don't think that they have done anything noteworthy with it, it made sense in the new continuity that Jason doesn't hate Tim as much as he did in the previous universe, because technically he was never Robin (wich was pretty much Jay whole reason to dislike him). And to be fair with with both characthers, althought he only tried to killed him in BFC, the fact he still beat Drake just to humilliate him in the TT tower, left a permanent stain in their relationship back in the pre-flashpoint universe, even if we ignore the very OCC takes on Jason after Winnick.

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t think that issue was that OC for that Jason. Sure, he wanted to beat Tim but the dialogue more than implies he wanted to test him, see what he was made of, how good "the pretender" was. The other thing was more related to the Titans and how he felt his time there was also forgotten despite being in major missions dealing with the Church of Blood, Dick and the Brotherhood of Evil.

----------


## G-Potion

Finished drawing something today. Let's get this to the next page so the pics I'll post can be viewed continuously.  :Cool:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Finished drawing something today. Let's get this to the next page so the pics I'll post can be viewed continuously.


Sweet. I've just been cleared to put up my full pic from last week too. Can't wait to see your drawings!

Edit: @G new page up go for it!

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

> Sweet. I've just been cleared to put up my full pic from last week too. Can't wait to see your drawings!
> 
> Edit: @G new page up go for it!


Thanks a bunch! Here we go!   :Cool: 

Productive week. I managed to draw, and also finished Red from the Batman: Arkham Compendium. Now onto Ill Weeds Grow Apace.

----------


## Alycat

lmao those are hilarious. @ G-Potion, what are your opinions on Red?

----------


## G-Potion

> lmao those are hilarious. @ G-Potion, what are your opinions on Red?


Thanks Aly! About Red, I love it! Admittedly I read very quickly through some parts that were already in-game and the tortures scenes, because those are painful to read. I enjoyed the Santa Prisca segment the most, though the last chapters did make me tear up.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Ahahah "Ice Clone" my smile couldn`t be wider if I tried  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

> Ahahah "Ice Clone" my smile couldn`t be wider if I tried


Like all the pro players have been saying... RH has everything... including Sub Zero's moves it seems.  :Cool:

----------


## Alycat

I'm still waiting on my Red Hood/ Arkham Knight Premium skin or gear




> Thanks Aly! About Red, I love it! Admittedly I read very quickly through some parts that were already in-game and the tortures scenes, because those are painful to read. I enjoyed the Santa Prisca segment the most, though the last chapters did make me tear up.


Yeah, those scenes were intense. I loved them though. Fits the brutality of the universe quite well.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm still waiting on my Red Hood/ Arkham Knight Premium skin or gear


Same. I'm kinda sure it's one of the most requested gear/premium skins. I'm just worry that they won't make an exception for premium skin to be essentially the same character. As for gear, their watchtower stream said they want all the pieces to combine well with other pieces. I'm not sure how an Arkham Knight gear fits with anything other than its own set.

----------


## Alycat

> Same. I'm kinda sure it's one of the most requested gear/premium skins. I'm just worry that they won't make an exception for premium skin to be essentially the same character. As for gear, their watchtower stream said they want all the pieces to combine well with other pieces. I'm not sure how an Arkham Knight gear fits with anything other than its own set.


I feel like they should make an exception and every character should have that one specialized set. I dunno, I feel like they kinda dropped the ball with the loot. It could be so much more diverse and different than what it is now.

----------


## Aahz

It would be cool if he could get the All Blades in Injustice maybe in a similar way as Damians "Staff of Grayson".

Btw. what do you think about the Gear and Shaders he has sofar? 
Imo he is missing some gear (especally helmets) that really different from the already established stuff, some characters have way crazier stuff. And I would like to see a Shades that is just Black and Red (basically like the tournament shader but with Red instead of Gold)

----------


## G-Potion

I think they look good but like you said, not much variations. Not having the domino mask is a huge loss as we don't really need that amount of helmets. Shaders fit him, but again, a lot of them look about the same. To be fair though, it's hard to get many colors on him without looking ridiculous. I still don't know why he has a Yellow/Red one. I also would like his chest/leg pieces to have some unarmored options, because the big thing about Jason is that he kick asses while in totally casual clothing. Say giving a T shirt/jeans combo, then it opens up tons of shader possibilities.

----------


## TheSupernaut

Am I the only one who thinks Injustice Jason is a little too small?

----------


## G-Potion

> Am I the only one who thinks Injustice Jason is a little too small?


I like it though. And while guide books/encyclopedias often give him bigger build, N52 as well as Rebirth Jason are drawn as lean most of the time. I'm more confused about why Damian is so buff.

----------


## Aahz

> Not having the domino mask is a huge loss as we don't really need that amount of helmets.


But even with the Helmets you could have much more variations, just look at lets say Scarecrow or Black Manta, and Deadshot has imo also more variation. An Head without Helmet would also be nice (and I would like to see a "Red X" Mask).

----------


## Aahz

> I like it though. And while guide books/encyclopedias often give him bigger build, N52 as well as Rebirth Jason are drawn as lean most of the time. I'm more confused about why Damian is so buff.


Especally without the jacket he looks really skinny in comaparison to the other male characters. 

Btw. in Injustice comics it is for some reason the other way arround, Damian is leaner, while Jason (assuming he is the fake Batman) has Bruce size and build.


Btw. I would also like to see him drawn more him bigger in the current comics, at least Dexter Soy started to draw him more muscular in the last time.

----------


## G-Potion

> But even with the Helmets you could have much more variations, just look at lets say Scarecrow or Black Manta, and Deadshot has imo also more variation. An Head without Helmet would also be nice (and I would like to see a "Red X" Mask).


Red Hood seems like he lacks variation partly because of the hood/helmet combo I think.

As I said to Alycat, with the way NRS wanted every piece to go with every other piece, they are very unlikely to give us iconic costumes for the character. If they ever go there though, Arkham Knight is all I want.

----------


## Alycat

Damian's buff because his muscles are filled with rage. There is no their explanation. Strangely enough his Nightwing stuff looks more lean.

----------


## kiwiliko

"Get your own shaders" 
lol I love how sassy your injustice comic is. Jason never fails to give in at the mention of cool stuff.

Arkham knight is a hugely demanded skin (rightfully) but also agreed. I too would love to see a Red X variation of his costume. The teen titans show hasn't left me yet, I'm still eternally sad about all the loose threads we never got answers for so TTgo can happen

----------


## SpentShrimp

Rebirth Jason is pretty built. I still think Jim Lee's Jason is by far the best iteration of him art-wise.

----------


## Caivu

Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 variant cover by Guillem March:

IMG_3422nk.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> "Get your own shaders" 
> lol I love how sassy your injustice comic is. Jason never fails to give in at the mention of cool stuff.


Sub Zero: I meant the _chilly_ cool stuff.
Red Hood: Oops. My bad. *proceeds to ask for crazy, take-your-lifebar chilly combos*  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Damian's buff because his muscles are filled with rage


Ok that's pretty funny when I picture it in my head.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Especally without the jacket he looks really skinny in comaparison to the other male characters. 
> 
> Btw. in Injustice comics it is for some reason the other way arround, Damian is leaner, while Jason (assuming he is the fake Batman) has Bruce size and build.
> 
> 
> Btw. I would also like to see him drawn more him bigger in the current comics, at least Dexter Soy started to draw him more muscular in the last time.


I think one reason for that is they want to make clear how young Jason is compare to the cast. Even in his intro dialogs, he is referred to as a kid quite often.

----------


## G-Potion

I saw Kaimaciel's post again on Tumblr.




> Now that I’ve pitted Jason against everyone in Injustice 2 and listened to their dialogue, I’ve found very interesting plot points. Whether the Injustice comics are going to follow them or ignore them completely to create a brand new story, this is what we have about Jason Todd (aka Red Hood) in the Injustice universe. Fanfiction writers, feel free to use this information 
> 
> -Jason is a neutral character but leans towards Batman’s side. He tells Dinah that they’re on the same team, but he also states that he goes his own way and that he is his own boss. 
> 
> -He states numerous times that he hates the regime (You’ve gone far enough Superman. There’s wrong and then there’s worse. You still represent the regime? I’m not with the regime). 
> 
> -Even though he agrees that some criminals need to die, he doesn’t want to kill all of them. (Even I have limits. There’s far and then there’s too far. I’m not out to kill every criminal.)
> 
> -*It’s implied that he used to be on Superman’s side but betrayed them, as seen with Wonder Woman’s dialogue (You’re a traitor and a criminal.) and Cyborg (Turned on us fast enough.)*
> ...


Fun read. It got me wondering if the comic will ever expand on this, especially the Jason betraying the regime part.

----------


## Alycat

Tbh I didn't look to closely at the dialogue since so much of it feels disjointed to to having to reuse assets.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
> "BIZARRO REBORN" part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad-Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn't kill them, and they don't kill each other, what's hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job! 
> RATED T+


Oh, _joy_




> Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 variant cover by Guillem March:
> 
> IMG_3422nk.jpg


Not a very interesting cover and certainly, one of the weaker works from March so far.

----------


## RedBird

> I think one reason for that is they want to make clear how young Jason is compare to the cast. Even in his intro dialogs, he is referred to as a kid quite often.


I thought so too and warning, big assumption here, but I figured that even though he is older than Damian in terms of birthdate, (I'm assuming this since Damian is the latest Robin however he knows of Jasons death)  that he wasn't revived until much later in this universe making him technically now younger than Damian.

----------


## RedBird

> Rebirth Jason is pretty built. I still think Jim Lee's Jason is by far the best iteration of him art-wise.


Jim Lee's Jason is wonderfully rendered. Both as 'Hush' and Robin, its definitely in my top 3 depictions.

----------


## Aahz

> Jim Lee's Jason is wonderfully rendered. Both as 'Hush' and Robin, its definitely in my top 3 depictions.


Where did he drew him as Robin?

----------


## Caivu

> Not a very interesting cover and certainly, one of the weaker works from March so far.


Why do you think so? You're in the minority opinion, based on the reception I've seen elsewhere.

----------


## Aioros22

> Where did he drew him as Robin?


In Hush. There`s flashback snips of RobinJason while Batman is thinking of him (first seen when he`s hallucinating after "seeing" Joker muder Selina and later on after Clayface is brought down (which according to Winnick was after Jason had actually switched with him and left to strike at later). 

The writting is abismal in places as far as characterization but that panel where see RobinJason and Batman swinging from rooftops in watercolors is a beauty.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why do you think so? You're in the minority opinion, based on the reception I've seen elsewhere.


Probably because it`s his most minimal cover yet with no easter eggs on it. 

That said it`s well rendered all over and graphic red and black.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

I noticed the Blue Bettle having been trained by Red Hood but didn`t catch the same from Firestorm. Need to play more often with the dialogue between the two. 

That`s cool, by the way. Jason at this point is one of the older characters despite being young in age. He should be training someone again in the comics and I hope the reveal on Damian`s sister in Injustice is that "Batman" had a hand in training her.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## okiedokiewo

> Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 variant cover by Guillem March:
> 
> Attachment 54737


I like it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Probably because it`s his most minimal cover yet with no easter eggs on it. 
> 
> That said it`s well rendered all over and graphic red and black.


There's also the complete lack of backgrounds, a pretty static pose for Jason and Batwoman looks copy pasted from another work.

----------


## Caivu

> There's also the complete lack of backgrounds, a pretty static pose for Jason and Batwoman looks copy pasted from another work.


 :Confused: 

A background would be distracting in this case since it would take away some focus from the characters, and there'd not be much to see, anyway. Really don't know what you mean by the "copy pasted" part or Jason looking static, since he's in a dynamic pose (look at the motion on his jacket).

----------


## G-Potion

> Tbh I didn't look to closely at the dialogue since so much of it feels disjointed to to having to reuse assets.


True, but on the other hand, they could use any other generic dialogues. It's the developer's choice to pick ones that imply Jason turning against the Regime.

----------


## Aahz

> That`s cool, by the way. Jason at this point is one of the older characters despite being young in age.


I think it is probably again the typical problem of creators not caring for timelines and ages. for some reason a lot of people keep seeing him as being almost Dicks age.

----------


## RedBird

> that panel where see RobinJason and Batman swinging from rooftops in watercolors is a beauty.


That whole page you posted is probably my favourite in Hush. The narrative itself does become very 'victim blame-y' at certain parts which is unfortunate and eye roll worthy. But this page, where Bruce remembers the old days is beautiful. Even the dialogue here, the fond remembrance, the longing and words of deep love for a lost son still tugs on my heartstrings.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A background would be distracting in this case since it would take away some focus from the characters, and there'd not be much to see, anyway. Really don't know what you mean by the "copy pasted" part or Jason looking static, since he's in a dynamic pose (look at the motion on his jacket).


It looks like Jason is an action figure standing in a black void with a Batwoman sticker pasted behind him.

Backgrounds exist to anchor your characters on a scene. There's no clever use of lightning like on the alt cover of issue 13, no characters interacting like on issue 12 alt cover There isn't even those incredibly stylized poses that March is known for.

----------


## Caivu

> It looks like Jason is an action figure standing in a black void with a Batwoman sticker pasted behind him.


Disagree.




> Backgrounds exist to anchor your characters on a scene. There's no clever use of lightning like on the alt cover of issue 13, no characters interacting like on issue 12 alt cover There isn't even those incredibly stylized poses that March is known for.


Not every piece needs such things. This cover is a good example of how that can work.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It doesn't work as anything but a random pinup, covers need to pop out the shelves and this one it doesn't. Is well executed since March is a very talented artist but is a far cry from his usual standards and thus, a huge disappointment.

----------


## Caivu

> It doesn't work as anything but a random pinup, covers need to pop out the shelves and this one it doesn't. Is well executed since March is a very talented artist but is a far cry from his usual standards and thus, a huge disappointment.


Well, like I said, you're the minority on this.

----------


## Aioros22

> That whole page you posted is probably my favourite in Hush. The narrative itself does become very 'victim blame-y' at certain parts which is unfortunate and eye roll worthy. But this page, where Bruce remembers the old days is beautiful. Even the dialogue here, the fond remembrance, the longing and words of deep love for a lost son still tugs on my heartstrings


It`s the last notorious example of victim blamed Jason and for that alone I kind of value it. 

Kinda, because the narration absolutely sucks donkey balls regardless where Loeb originally intended for Jason to return under his pen or not. Luckily Winnick salvages that bit of the story in his Annual and Lee`s art is among the best he`s done.

----------


## SpentShrimp

This cover looks pretty good. I like the detail in the guns.

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, someone mentioned Gotham City Garage. I happen to have read the last ish today and I liked it so far. 

Red Hood is the leader of a Mad Max-esque raiders gang called..you guess it. Leather jackets, red helmets (some with AK esque ears), bikes, guns, chains and the whole drill. They`re targetting a "Lexes" truck for them and it so happens that the girls planned a heist on the same truck. The gang members are being handled fairly well by Silver Banshee, Kara and Barda as you`d expect when Jason makes his entrance. Full "Max" leather suit with "Todd" written in the back of the jacket with the red helmet covering his face ( also some red in the leather like the holsters) and sporting his trademark handguns. 

He`s the only one the girls don`t manage to hit (coolest scene is the trademark bambaloozed back jump - you`ll see what I mean) he snatches the truck, girls follow suit and chase him to a valley. 

Nice use of the characters, I love the setting (always enjoyed the Post Apocalytpical/Burning Man asthetics) and Jason comes across someone with his own agenda rather than a "villain" (I think that post I mention made reference of it). 

Looking forward for next issue!

----------


## RedBird

> By the way, someone mentioned Gotham City Garage. I happen to have read the last ish today and I liked it so far. 
> 
> Red Hood is the leader of a Mad Max-esque raiders gang called..you guess it. Leather jackets, red helmets (some with AK esque ears), bikes, guns, chains and the whole drill. They`re targetting a "Lexes" truck for them and it so happens that the girls planned a heist on the same truck. The gang members are being handled fairly well by Silver Banshee, Kara and Barda as you`d expect when Jason makes his entrance. Full "Max" leather suit with "Todd" written in the back of the jacket with the red helmet covering his face ( also some red in the leather like the holsters) and sporting his trademark handguns. 
> 
> He`s the only one the girls don`t manage to hit (coolest scene is the trademark bambaloozed back jump - you`ll see what I mean) he snatches the truck, girls follow suit and chase him to a valley. 
> 
> Nice use of the characters, I love the setting (always enjoyed the Post Apocalytpical/Burning Man asthetics) and Jason comes across someone with his own agenda rather than a "villain" (I think that post I mention made reference of it). 
> 
> Looking forward for next issue!


Oh wow! I didn't even realize before till you mentioned it, he is garbed just like old school Mad Max :P Sweet! My appreciation for this issue just increased.

----------


## Aioros22

For people who only ever saw Road Warrior, "old school Max" here is the first movie of the series when he`s still a cop and the suit is still looking sharp  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> He`s the only one the girls don`t manage to hit (coolest scene is the trademark bambaloozed back jump - you`ll see what I mean) he snatches the truck, girls follow suit and chase him to a valley.


Holy cow the bamboozle jump!! Now I know why I was so happy to see that move.  :Cool:

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## G-Potion

Did you notice that his was the only helmet without the bat-ears?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Came across this again. My favorite Countdown fanart.

http://ranta000.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

Also this badass piece from https://jasontoddscoffin.tumblr.com/

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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

> Did you notice that his was the only helmet without the bat-ears?


Yeah, because he`s the Red Hood, the gang is the Militia  :Cool: 

Love that Coundtown ship/arworks!

----------


## Aioros22

Hahaha that vid is cool.

----------


## kiwiliko

I love me some good Jason references. 

Although this also implies this is a Batman who collects various robin Jays and trained them into his collar and chains set up which is admittedly not what I was expecting from Metal.

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## kiwiliko

> Came across this again. My favorite Countdown fanart.
> 
> http://ranta000.tumblr.com


Cutest countdown style ever!

Also out of curiosity and because I never quite kept track of countdown, does anyone know which of the multiworlds that scene of Bruce holding Jason's head "you really look like him" is suppose to be referenced from? Swear I remember something like this but it's all a blur now.

----------


## G-Potion

> Cutest countdown style ever!
> 
> Also out of curiosity and because I never quite kept track of countdown, does anyone know which of the multiworlds that scene of Bruce holding Jason's head "you really look like him" is suppose to be referenced from? Swear I remember something like this but it's all a blur now.


I think it's Earth-51, the one where Batman kills the Joker after his Jason died. Countdown Jason got the Red Robin costume from him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I love me some good Jason references. 
> 
> Although this also implies this is a Batman who collects various robin Jays and trained them into his collar and chains set up which is admittedly not what I was expecting from Metal.


Er, what is exactly the reference there?

----------


## G-Potion

> Er, what is exactly the reference there?


It's crowbar?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Er, what is exactly the reference there?


Yeah I meant the bar being their stop word. Pretty small ref in context of everything but still a ref, similar to the crowbar and ashes that appear in TT show.

Also thought it was an interesting tie in that if Metal was trying to name cannibal counterparts of the robins to be crows, then a group of them would be by definition a murder, although that may just be coincidence and not intentional.

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## kiwiliko

> I think it's Earth-51, the one where Batman kills the Joker after his Jason died. Countdown Jason got the Red Robin costume from him.


Ahhhh thanks G. For such a cute style that is a surprisingly sad scene to draw I gotta say.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's crowbar?


Yeah, the cannibal Robins utter "Crow" when they feast and Sauron utters "Bar" to halt them. 

Pretty on the nose but easy to miss the first time.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ahhhh thanks G. For such a cute style that is a surprisingly sad scene to draw I gotta say.


Funny thing Jason being the first mainstream Red Robin. Tim can`t catch a break.

----------


## RedBird

> I love me some good Jason references. 
> 
> Although this also implies this is a Batman who collects various robin Jays and trained them into his collar and chains set up which is admittedly not what I was expecting from Metal.


I at first thought they were meant to be counterparts to the four Robin boys, a joke about how they are all clones of each other. But THIS reference to crowbar, coupled with the fact that there a _fifth_ different looking zombie robin in teen titans, (which ruins the so called, one on one counterpart theory), led me to that theory as well, that they are all Robin Jays that JokerBats collected, it also explains why their uniform is similar and of the original robin suit.

Theres even a polygon article that suggests the same theory. [X]
AND Scott Snyder commented on the article on twitter stating: "Had couple people ask why the evil Robins say what they do in Metal 2 - this is a good primer  :Smile:  thanks @Polygon"
And to people asking if they were counter part Robins (zombie versions of dick/jay/tim/dami) he said, "You'll have to wait and see". 

The second answer feels much more vague, if you ask me. I'm guessing this is him trying to go all Morrison meta on us to point out that no matter the universe Joker will always be a tormentor to Robin Jay. I guess we'll find out when the one shot origin story for the Joker Bats is released.

----------


## Aahz

> The second answer feels much more vague, if you ask me. I'm guessing this is him trying to go all Morrison meta on us to point out that no matter the universe Joker will always be a tormentor to Robin Jay. I guess we'll find out when the one shot origin story for the Joker Bats is released.


It is just a little wired that he does something like that without Jason being really a part of the event ...

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## G-Potion

> Ahhhh thanks G. For such a cute style that is a surprisingly sad scene to draw I gotta say.


Yeah, with what happened on Earth-51, you could almost use it to explain how Jason went bonkers after coming back to Earth. If the Batman there didn't die, Jason might very well stay on that earth with him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Funny thing Jason being the first mainstream Red Robin. Tim can`t catch a break.


Haha. Ironic, for someone who was designed to be as opposite from Jason as possible.

----------


## RedBird

> It is just a little wired that he does something like that without Jason being really a part of the event ...


Not really. 

Considering that Snyder also named an ENTIRE ARC around Jasons most famous comic arc (Death in the Family/Death of the Family) ALL without ever giving any additional time to Jasons character within his story. Yeah, doesn't really surprise me.

Hell, most writers at DC dont really care about Jason beyond 'being the dead robin' and using him and his death as nothing more than a breeding ground for Bruces man pain within their stories. Jasons death is still the biggest thing to ever happen to him and a cornerstone of batmans mythos. The loss of a son/robin. So twisting that narrative or using it as a convenient plot device shouldn't be surprising. Even after all these years, I'm sure there is plenty of writers that still preferred him dead, it was easier to shape a story when there was a corpse in the ground for Batman to lament over.

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## RedBird

> Yeah, with what happened on Earth-51, you could almost use it to explain how Jason went bonkers after coming back to Earth. If the Batman there didn't die, Jason might very well stay on that earth with him.


He also felt drawn to the Gotham by Gaslight Batman which always amused me. :P

----------


## Aahz

> Haha. Ironic, for someone who was designed to be as opposite from Jason as possible.


If you really read the Dixon run, he is actually not so different. He is (opposed to what his fans claim) also quite reckless from time to time and has anger problems.



And Dixion definitely didn't wrote him as a classical nerd. Stuff like Tim playing role playing and video games, actually appeared quite rarely (and iirc only in really early stories), and it was iirc more often shown that Tim was into "cool" stuff (girls, cars, sport, rock music ...), and his civilain cloth were usually also way more "rebellious" than anything Jason and Dick would usually wear.

----------


## RedBird

> If you really read the Dixon run, he is actually not so different. He is (opposed to what his fans claim) also quite reckless from time to time and has anger problems.
> And Dixion definitely didn't wrote him as a classical nerd. Stuff like Tim playing role playing and video games, actually appeared quite rarely (and iirc only in really early stories), and it was iirc more often shown that Tim was into "cool" stuff (girls, cars, sport, rock music ...), and his civilain cloth were usually also way more "rebellious" than anything Jason and Dick would usually wear.


Right? But thats cause Tim had to suffer through the 90s, with its aesthetic of spiked hair, awful color combos, skateboarding, grunge style clothing, skipping school, and the 'you can't tell me what to do MOM' attitude being at an all time cringy high.

This is also the reason why I hate the weird 'angry robin' image Jason has, because its not true. You can't be painted as an angry person forever if the anger comes from deep seated ptsd or more to the point a moment where its justified. Labeling a character as this or that 'emotion' seems so damn simplified, and really just shows that peoples only understanding of Jason comes from either UTRH(which I would argue Jason was more sad than angry) or DCs implications and victim blaming robin narrative that tries to paint the character as out of control. 

If there was a Robin that I would describe not just as angry (thats too simple) but having a dangerous temper, it would be Dick. The guy has alienated life long friends and family over his anger issues and over much less impactful things than say, 'dying'. This is not to discredit Dick btw, in fact its one of the aspects that attracted me to the character, that he could go off the handle and lose himself in moments is interesting, and an engaging part of him considering how much the other dc characters depend of him and how much he tries to keep up the facade of being in control, even when he isnt, similar to Bruce.

----------


## G-Potion

> He also felt drawn to the Gotham by Gaslight Batman which always amused me. :P


Oh I didn't get to hear all the dialogs in the trailer. What did he say that makes you feel that way?

----------


## G-Potion

> If you really read the Dixon run, he is actually not so different. He is (opposed to what his fans claim) also quite reckless from time to time and has anger problems.
> 
> 
> 
> And Dixion definitely didn't wrote him as a classical nerd. Stuff like Tim playing role playing and video games, actually appeared quite rarely (and iirc only in really early stories), and it was iirc more often shown that Tim was into "cool" stuff (girls, cars, sport, rock music ...), and his civilain cloth were usually also way more "rebellious" than anything Jason and Dick would usually wear.


You're right of course. And it's more baffling that not only fans but most writers wouldn't acknowledge this.

----------


## RedBird

> Oh I didn't get to hear all the dialogs in the trailer. What did he say that makes you feel that way?


I was referring to Countdown, in 'The search for Ray Palmer". The images speak for themselves, though along with these there are plenty of moments where Bruce and Jason work together, or 'silently stare at each other' clearly having a moment. The inner dialogue boxes are all Jasons.
Countdown1.jpg

Countdown2.jpg

Countdown3.JPG

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## G-Potion

Dammn that's a nice moment that I completely forgot about. Countdown is a huge resource to mine for Jason. Hopefully Lobdell gets to it someday.

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## RedBird

> Dammn that's a nice moment that I completely forgot about. Countdown is a huge resource to mine for Jason. Hopefully Lobdell gets to it someday.


Despite it being destroyed by Superboy prime, I can never thank DCs Countdown enough for not only a lot of nice Jason centered moments like this, but also the fact that within the DC canon that the most "Perfect DC Universe" a "near utopia" would feature Jason as Batman. (in a scenario where Bruce in his place in death). Most people think of BFTC JayBats when Jason in a Batman role is brought up, but earth 15 is the version I always think of. Basically we know now that a more mentally stable Jason would be a perfect Batman, and to me, that helps to make up for a lot of the victim blaming and unfair 'failure' stigma that the character has received over the years.

----------


## Aioros22

> If you really read the Dixon run, he is actually not so different. He is (opposed to what his fans claim) also quite reckless from time to time and has anger problems.
> 
> 
> 
> And Dixion definitely didn't wrote him as a classical nerd. Stuff like Tim playing role playing and video games, actually appeared quite rarely (and iirc only in really early stories), and it was iirc more often shown that Tim was into "cool" stuff (girls, cars, sport, rock music ...), and his civilain cloth were usually also way more "rebellious" than anything Jason and Dick would usually wear.


This is what fandom doesn`t want to get sometimes. Early Tim had alot of Jason in him but with Dick Grayson`s blessing and actual sibling relationship. That was the thumb up for the readers to quickly warm to him , including the ones who prefered stories where Jason was left out. He was never the opposite of him. 

The nerd Tim only came around after when the character was getting to be safe.

----------


## Aioros22

> Although this also implies this is a Batman who collects various robin Jays and trained them into his collar and chains set up which is admittedly not what I was expecting from Metal.
> I at first thought they were meant to be counterparts to the four Robin boys, a joke about how they are all clones of each other. But THIS reference to crowbar, coupled with the fact that there a fifth different looking zombie robin in teen titans, (which ruins the so called, one on one counterpart theory), led me to that theory as well, that they are all Robin Jays that JokerBats collected, it also explains why their uniform is similar and of the original robin suit.
> 
>  Theres even a polygon article that suggests the same theory. [X]
>  AND Scott Snyder commented on the article on twitter stating: "Had couple people ask why the evil Robins say what they do in Metal 2 - this is a good primer  thanks @Polygon"
>  And to people asking if they were counter part Robins (zombie versions of dick/jay/tim/dami) he said, "You'll have to wait and see". 
> 
>  The second answer feels much more vague, if you ask me. I'm guessing this is him trying to go all Morrison meta on us to point out that no matter the universe Joker will always be a tormentor to Robin Jay. I guess we'll find out when the one shot origin story for the Joker Bats is released.


Nice article but yeah, that panel is really on the nose about it. They all look the same and only "the son" looks radically different in TT. Then again, they keep it vague because in the same comic the Robin outfits are a slightly different from each other. To me it feels like Snyder wanting the cake and the cheery at the same time. There`s also this post Soy did recently about an upcoming cover in Metal:



It`s obviously not original, both the cover and Soy`s take are taken from that controversial Joker and Barbara cover where he makes her smile the same way. Again, very in the nose.

----------


## Aioros22

> Despite it being destroyed by Superboy prime, I can never thank DCs Countdown enough for not only a lot of nice Jason centered moments like this, but also the fact that within the DC canon that the most "Perfect DC Universe" a "near utopia" would feature Jason as Batman. (in a scenario where Bruce in his place in death). Most people think of BFTC JayBats when Jason in a Batman role is brought up, but earth 15 is the version I always think of. Basically we know now that a more mentally stable Jason would be a perfect Batman, and to me, that helps to make up for a lot of the victim blaming and unfair 'failure' stigma that the character has received over the years.


I think balanced readers such as us can take both. I don`t disregard angry Jason. That was an arc that led to his death. It`s part of the character. What other fandoms needs to get before they speak about the character is that the "angry-fvck-you-Batman) issues are actually the vast minority of his publication reportoire in the role. 

Same thing with Under The Red Hood. *Nothing* of that is status-quo but part of his journey and both his ups and downs. Do they hit harder on him than the others? Yes and while I detest the backstages and editorial sheeningans, the character has endured despite of it and thus keep turning iconic all the same. 

We Hoodlers don`t stay dead or take crap, DC. And sometimes, sometimesss even TPTB have to aknowledges the fact. 



_Clearly_

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## okiedokiewo

> It is just a little wired that he does something like that without Jason being really a part of the event ...


Sounds about right for DC, which loves using Jason's death as manpain for Batman and other characters without involving the living Jason.

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## Aioros22

They love using Jason centric lore and characteristics, period. No matter what they say. Batman Beyond not long ago had a whole sequence scene running on someone like the Joker in the wharehouse because Jurgens asked the artista to especifically make it disturbing and that clics with readers right away. Even the Batman Forever Dick Grayson only has his origin because the character is pretty much Jason. 

Not Batman and Robin, that`s clearly more Dick in and more 66` centric.

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## Aahz

> This is also the reason why I hate the weird 'angry robin' image Jason has, because its not true. You can't be painted as an angry person forever if the anger comes from deep seated ptsd or more to the point a moment where its justified. Labeling a character as this or that 'emotion' seems so damn simplified, and really just shows that peoples only understanding of Jason comes from either UTRH(which I would argue Jason was more sad than angry) or DCs implications and victim blaming robin narrative that tries to paint the character as out of control.


I think that there is still a real lack of an convenient explanation why Jason chaged like that in the end of his career. I mean you could quite easily explain why Jason got more and more frustrated with Batmans moral code and his methods since they failed quite often in that time (Killing Joke, Dumpster Slasher, Diplomats Son), and even Batman himself became darker in that area (letting KGB starve, letting Blackfire get killed by his own man, leaving the JLA to found the Outsiders). But that was never properly done (probably since Batman wouldn't that great in such a story).




> If there was a Robin that I would describe not just as angry (thats too simple) but having a dangerous temper, it would be Dick. The guy has alienated life long friends and family over his anger issues and over much less impactful things than say, 'dying'. This is not to discredit Dick btw, in fact its one of the aspects that attracted me to the character, that he could go off the handle and lose himself in moments is interesting, and an engaging part of him considering how much the other dc characters depend of him and how much he tries to keep up the facade of being in control, even when he isnt, similar to Bruce.


I don't remember him being angry as Robin, only as Nightwing, and that was usually the consequence of him beeing in a bad mood because of some kind of tragedy (Dicks big flaw is that he is not good in cooping with failure, that was actually already established in Bronze age Teen Titans issue).

----------


## Aioros22

Not much room for convenient explanations when the main writer and editor plot to get rid of Robin from the books. As soon the Stunt was greenlit, that`s all it took. Thought to be a little fair to Starlin, he did use a convenient excuse for Jason`s sudden shift and upping manneirisms since it took place after Jason finds out that Batman kept from him any info about what happened to his father after he figures it out. This, coupled with the increasing frustation about how the Law would (not) work and hormones, it`s feesible. 

It`s less feesible when you look at how Batman was written, with training Jason in the use of handguns, beating down someone he believe was the Slasher without confirmation to a bloody pulp if not for Gordon, locking KGBeast to starve himself, he was every bit as edgy as Jason was if not more sometimes. But that can turn into a convenient plot as well in Jason rebelling on Bruce`s hipocrasy.

----------


## TheCape

As a Tim fan, i had to agreed, the whole catuious Robin is a lie, althougt if i had to said what is his biggest flaw, is that he has a very "i know better than you" kind of mentality.

Jason is always more difficult to point for me, but i thougth that his issue was that he cared too much and has problems dealing with some of the stuff that he has found in his crimefighing carreer.

----------


## Aioros22

That`s basically how Frank Miller approached him in TLC. Jason`s flaw is that he is too emotionally attached.

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## Aahz

> Not much room for convenient explanations when the main writer and editor plot to get rid of Robin from the books. As soon the Stunt was greenlit, that`s all it took. Thought to be a little fair to Starlin, he did use a convenient excuse for Jason`s sudden shift and upping manneirisms since it took place after Jason finds out that Batman kept from him any info about what happened to his father after he figures it out. This, coupled with the increasing frustation about how the Law would (not) work and hormones, it`s feesible.


Stralin's explanation was iirc that Jason hadn't over come the death of his parents, which is imo not really convenient, since happened (in Universe) years earlier. I kind of missed a trigger for that, already something like that the victim of the Diplomat's Son reminded him of his mother could have worked.

But that's not only a problem I have with Stralin's run, that could have also been done by an other writer in later retelling of Jason's origin, but there they usually go with Jason being angry from the beginning.

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## RedBird

> I don't remember him being angry as Robin, only as Nightwing, and that was usually the consequence of him beeing in a bad mood because of some kind of tragedy (Dicks big flaw is that he is not good in cooping with failure, that was actually already established in Bronze age Teen Titans issue).


 Thats what I was referring to, I was just using the term Robin more as a casual way to identify the fact that I was talking about the batboys. I still think of them as 'the robins' sometimes. My bad for the confusion.

----------


## G-Potion

OMGGG You guyssss RED HOOD in Injustice Pro Series Grand Finals!!!! THANK YOU SONICFOX!!! THE MOST IMPORTANT TOURNAMENT EVER!!! AND IT'S ON TV!!!  :Embarrassment:  :Embarrassment:  :Embarrassment: 

https://www.twitch.tv/netherrealm

----------


## G-Potion

SonicFox's 1st match

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## G-Potion

2nd match

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## G-Potion

3rd match (not Red Hood but too awesome to not post)

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## G-Potion

Winner's final

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## G-Potion

Grand final

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## Aioros22

Dark Trinity #13: part deux Preview

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/trinity-13/

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## okiedokiewo

> Grand final


Very cool.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by DEXTER SOY
Cover by MIKE McKONE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“BIZARRO REBORN” part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad—Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn’t kill them, and they don’t kill each other, what’s hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job!
On sale DECEMBER 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+




yay

----------


## G-Potion

> Dark Trinity #13: part deux Preview
> 
> http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/trinity-13/


Okay... now I just want to see how these two talk it out in the aftermath.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #17
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> “BIZARRO REBORN” part four! Meet the newest reluctant members of the Suicide Squad—Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro! The Outlaws are forced to join Harley, Deadshot and the rest of the Squad for a mission to the Arctic. If the cold doesn’t kill them, and they don’t kill each other, what’s hiding in the wreckage of the Colony will definitely finish the job!
> On sale DECEMBER 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+
> 
> ...


Croc yeee!

----------


## G-Potion

Jason, so embarrassing.  :Cool: 

http://otter-the-author.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

> Croc yeee!


As much as I don't really care for suicide squad, I'm willing to see if Lobdell can surprise me once again here.

Do you guys think any sort of recognition will occur between Jason and Harley? (since she may have been his official/unofficial therapist at one point) 

Or what about Jason and Croc? Croc was helping Roy after all.

----------


## G-Potion

> As much as I don't really care for suicide squad, I'm willing to see if Lobdell can surprise me once again here.
> 
> Do you guys think any sort of recognition will occur between Jason and Harley? (since she may have been his official/unofficial therapist at one point) 
> 
> Or what about Jason and Croc? Croc was helping Roy after all.


Since Lobdell has been dropping relevant hints throughout the run, I guess the thing with Harley might as well come up.

As for Croc, I don't know, but if there's some recognition like 'Oh so you're the guy that Roy was running with' I would be pleased.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dark Trinity #13: part deux Preview
> 
> http://www.multiversitycomics.com/previews/trinity-13/


Oh well turned out to be pretty disappointing. But at least mostly everyone looks bad?

----------


## Aioros22

In terms of not being an amazing story? Yeah. Pretty on par with the Trinity title. Standard superhero stuff and that`s the crime.  

Characters looking bad tho? Not really. Superman is said to be giving everything he`s got to Bizarro, Superman having to save Bruce from Jason (seen in the preview), Artemis shrugging off a Wonder Woman punch and Clark mentioning how she reminds him of Diana. Afterwards at the city you have Superman again just barely able to keep Bizarro on hold, Jason is seen subdued by the Lasso again (appearantly nothing else would work) and Artemis is down after Batman uses three tranquilizing darts (off panel), each potent enough to down Bane. 

Also hinted that the villain duo may not be a duo after all. 

The biggets mistep of the arc is how standardly trope it is. An arc that contains a now possible villany Trinity, the OG Trinity, Magic Trinity and the Dark Trinity should feel bigger than something that doesn`t stand out that much. Justice League today was more engaging and is basically future Aquaman looking like Cable.

----------


## G-Potion

That's what I meant. Basically Superman and the mystic trinity weren't looking too good there. That means I'm not as salty about the Dark trinity.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah yeah. 

The worst are the magic Trinity, they`re the instant fridged and is now clear the Outlaws are the key to save the day.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep if mystic trinity do that badly against magic then there's no reason to feel bad about the outlaws falling victims. 

Is the next issue the last one? Too soon. I might not get my father/son moment fix.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

Cuteness overload from https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yep if mystic trinity do that badly against magic then there's no reason to feel bad about the outlaws falling victims. 
> 
> Is the next issue the last one? Too soon. I might not get my father/son moment fix.


Two more, I think.

DARK DESTINY part three! The Pandora Pits secrets start to be revealed as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman team with Constantine, Deadman, Zatanna, Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro to attempt to close off the pits forever, but the dark energies are starting to corrupt the heroes.

DARK DESTINY finale! Constantines quick thinking has bought the trinity some time, but is it enough for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman to stop Circe and Ras al Ghul from unleashing the Pandora Pits? Uncertainties mount as Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro rush in to...save the day?

----------


## G-Potion

This looks so good!!

https://twitter.com/stelleriss

----------


## G-Potion

> Two more, I think.


Ah that sounds better. Thanks for the info!  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

Well, as seen by this issue, they will all fall victims at some point or another. If there`s someone who doesn`t it`s by pure circumstancial luck.

----------


## Aioros22

My, that`s awesome artwork  :Cool:

----------


## dietrich

@minkyujungart

----------


## Aioros22

Slow week so you might as well share some fun  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Why is this week so slowww! Thread needs more life.  :Big Grin: 

http://merildae.tumblr.com/post/126643061840

----------


## G-Potion

Anyone used to watch Sailor Moon here? 

http://yellowqiant.tumblr.com/post/165173791111

----------


## G-Potion

If Arkham Knight has militia, Red Hood can have... minions?

http://hyssop1234.tumblr.com/

----------


## RedBird

> Artemis is down after Batman uses three tranquilizing darts (off panel), each potent enough to down Bane.


Actually what he said was that he had the darts calibrated so that three could take down Bane. If you look at the panel, theres at least 26 in Artemis. I appreciate that they didnt downplay her as much here.

But yeah, I agree with you, everything just feels incredibly tropey. Very sub-par to me, its disappointing that they are not taking advantage of these characters to present the dynamics between the trinity and their dark counterparts, I feel since the characters DO mention that the dark trinity are being used in order to emotionally manipulate the trinity that the writer would actually, you know, write an emotional scene? I don't mean that in the sense of something being 'sad', but just some semblance character driven drama in between the action. 

I don't say this often. But I kinda wish Lobdell had written this comic.

----------


## RedBird

> Two more, I think.
> 
> “DARK DESTINY” part three! The Pandora Pits’ secrets start to be revealed as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman team with Constantine, Deadman, Zatanna, Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro to attempt to close off the pits forever, but the dark energies are starting to corrupt the heroes.
> 
> “DARK DESTINY” finale! Constantine’s quick thinking has bought the trinity some time, but is it enough for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman to stop Circe and Ra’s al Ghul from unleashing the Pandora Pits? Uncertainties mount as Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro rush in to...save the day?


Huh, well I guess theres still time for some fun and or bonding. I'm with G-Potion I would like a good father/son moment here. I also want to know what the relationship with bizarro and supes is.

----------


## Aioros22

> Actually what he said was that he had the darts calibrated so that three could take down Bane. If you look at the panel, theres at least 26 in Artemis. I appreciate that they didnt downplay her as much here.


I went to check it again and you`re on the mark. I missed the others because on first reading I focused on the three darts most visible on her neck. 26 of them. 




> But yeah, I agree with you, everything just feels incredibly tropey. Very sub-par to me, its disappointing that they are not taking advantage of these characters to present the dynamics between the trinity and their dark counterparts, I feel since the characters DO mention that the dark trinity are being used in order to emotionally manipulate the trinity that the writer would actually, you know, write an emotional scene? I don't mean that in the sense of something being 'sad', but just some semblance character driven drama in between the action.


It`s an absolute crime how "superhero" tropey it reads. Batman and Red Hood have what should be designed as an impactful emotional scene and it reads anything but, like a standard action flic sequence. Superman hasn`t connected with Bizzaro one bit, all he`s said is how Biz is someone who can take his best shots laughing. Wonder Woman and Artemis? They should have next to Bats and Hood the most connected backstory and the writer hasn`t explored it one yota, in fact the one connection - and by association no less - is done by Superman. 

"Hey, she`s kinda like you! But with demon!"

Standard, standard, standard. 

If Loedbell was writting it, it would be 10x times to say the least. For one, he would explore the Bizarro and Superman dinamic to the ground.

----------


## kiwiliko

I agree we need some more Jason to fill up a slow week. Completely forgot I told G our big bang drawings got cleared so here it is.
I'm wondering actually if I can manage to rope some of you people into doing bigbangs too.

----------


## RedBird

This is a beautiful piece kiwiliko  :Big Grin: 

It came up on my tumblr dashboard just yesterday and my friend (who was spying on my computer) saw it and adored it as well, and shes not even a dc fan. (Though I am trying to introduce her)

The anatomy is great, the angle feels dynamic and the colours choices are wonderful too, bold deep saturated colours, mixed with soft neutral tones. 10/10

----------


## kiwiliko

> Actually what he said was that he had the darts calibrated so that three could take down Bane. If you look at the panel, theres at least 26 in Artemis. I appreciate that they didnt downplay her as much here.
> 
> But yeah, I agree with you, everything just feels incredibly tropey. Very sub-par to me, its disappointing that they are not taking advantage of these characters to present the dynamics between the trinity and their dark counterparts, I feel since the characters DO mention that the dark trinity are being used in order to emotionally manipulate the trinity that the writer would actually, you know, write an emotional scene? I don't mean that in the sense of something being 'sad', but just some semblance character driven drama in between the action. 
> 
> I don't say this often. But I kinda wish Lobdell had written this comic.


Still forever bitter about Trinity somehow defaulting to opposite speak Bizarro. It really takes a vague skim to realize how Lobdell sets up their dynamic but Trinity neither remains true to their characters nor even tries. It's normal for this to happen but I feel like Lobdell and Soy both genuinely enjoy working on these Outlaws as way more than just a paycheck too, for other writers to borrow the dark trinity and not bother acknowledging their work is just disrespectful. 
On the bright side I do admit appreciating outlaws be badass. 
Last question are we all pretending we didn't just watch Jason's demon helmet vore Constantine or was that a mass fever dream.

----------


## kiwiliko

> This is a beautiful piece kiwiliko 
> 
> It came up on my tumblr dashboard just yesterday and my friend (who was spying on my computer) saw it and adored it as well, and shes not even a dc fan. (Though I am trying to introduce her)
> 
> The anatomy is great, the angle feels dynamic and the colours choices are wonderful too, bold deep saturated colours, mixed with soft neutral tones. 10/10


Ahhh thank you for your nice comment! I'm super happy your friend liked it too, if she ever gets into DC please tell her I said welcome to the dark side  :Big Grin: 

So hoping Soy's japanese Jason design becomes a thing. I am a terrible terrible trendfollower but Oni mask red hood holds a dear place in my heart now.

----------


## RedBird

> Last question are we all pretending we didn't just watch Jason's demon helmet vore Constantine or was that a mass fever dream.


I didn't wanna say it, but yeah, thats the first thing I thought of as well. XD

In one moment, the multiple previous incarnations of Jasons 'mouth helmet', didnt seem so awful by comparison.

This is seriously the second time in comics that Jason has gobbled someone up. First as a monster, now as a demon. Comics are weird.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://jayredwing.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

> I agree we need some more Jason to fill up a slow week. Completely forgot I told G our big bang drawings got cleared so here it is.
> I'm wondering actually if I can manage to rope some of you people into doing bigbangs too.


Jasus, this is a beauty. You two collaborated in it?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Jasus, this is a beauty. You two collaborated in it?


Thanks! It was a reverse big bang event for DC so def a type of collab. Usually a writer writes up a full story and puts up a small excerpt. Artists get to come in and choose what excerpts we draw for and pairs are made before we get to read the full story. Then stories and their drawings get released on a determined day for the rest of fandom. Reverse big bang just means I drew this first and an author claimed this pic to write a story off of. I think we released about a week ago and my claim author, firefright, is awesomeee.

Warning for anyone who is considering these events they feature ships frequently but theres gen big bangs available too if anyone wants to join.

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree we need some more Jason to fill up a slow week. Completely forgot I told G our big bang drawings got cleared so here it is.
> I'm wondering actually if I can manage to rope some of you people into doing bigbangs too.


I remember the first time you posted this, I asked if this was for a fic. Now it turns out to be a reverse bang, I can't decide if I'm right or wrong. Pic looking great still, after looking at it for the 10th time. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> 


I love this 'battle-priest' kind of thing for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> It came up on my tumblr dashboard just yesterday and my friend (who was spying on my computer) saw it and adored it as well, and shes not even a dc fan. (Though I am trying to introduce her)


When you succeed, next step is to rope her into joining the army here.  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

> I agree we need some more Jason to fill up a slow week. Completely forgot I told G our big bang drawings got cleared so here it is.
> I'm wondering actually if I can manage to rope some of you people into doing bigbangs too.


GOOD IMAGE  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Since we've been rec'ing fanarts so far, I'm wondering if you guys read fics too? Should we include fic recs as well, like the Batman: Arkham Compendium series that Alycat and Kiwiliko both talked about?

----------


## G-Potion

From TK's twitter. 



He drools all over Jason's jacket. *Tell self to not get mad until the whole issue is out* 

..... :Mad:

----------


## Alycat

> Since we've been rec'ing fanarts so far, I'm wondering if you guys read fics too? Should we include fic recs as well, like the Batman: Arkham Compendium series that Alycat and Kiwiliko both talked about?


I'd like that! Its kinda hard to find good fics without subjecting yourself to alot of awful crap.




> From TK's twitter. 
> 
> 
> 
> He drools all over Jason's jacket. *Tell self to not get mad until the whole issue is out* 
> 
> .....


Awww how cute

----------


## kaimaciel

> 


Father, I have sinned  :Wink: 

As for fics, I tried to collect good ones (in my opinion) on A03. I've also written a couple, all Gen fics, mostly revolving around family matters. I wouldn't say they are great, but I got good reviews  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

A professional writer taking the chance to get a rile out of a fanbase because a Twitter list was shat on. 

Too sad not to laugh  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Battle Priest Jason was my number one skin for Injustice. It`s too damn good not to show up again, somewhere. 

Ya hear me DC?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> From TK's twitter. 
> 
> 
> 
> He drools all over Jason's jacket. *Tell self to not get mad until the whole issue is out* 
> 
> .....


And the dog beat Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> A professional writer taking the chance to get a rile out of a fanbase because a Twitter list was shat on. 
> 
> Too sad not to laugh


If you have the power then why not. He should sneak Duke beating Tim in there for a double kill.




> @t G
> 
> Battle Priest Jason was my number one skin for Injustice. It`s too damn good not to show up again, somewhere. 
> 
> Ya hear me DC?


No. they will find a way to sneak another Mortal Kombat charcter in there somehow, prob Erron Black.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason is obviously holding back, the dog has no bullet wounds.

----------


## Aioros22

Soy marketing the hell out of his helmet. I can smell some changes in the comic someday.

----------


## Aioros22

> If you have the power then why not. He should sneak Duke beating Tim in there for a double kill.


He can, nobody is saying otherwise. It doesn`t make it less sad   :Big Grin:  

It`s pathetic on a fandom level when we happen to know where it comes from. It`s not a surprise genuine joke, it`s just the writer going "Har Har take it". There`s also the chance this sequence was just done at the expense of it which doesn`t earn any browny points. 

Artwork is fantastic, though. 




> No. they will find a way to sneak another Mortal Kombat charcter in there somehow, prob Erron Black.


Likely, I`m not actually pleading or hoping. There`s been enough time for some unique Skin to pop up like AK or Priest Jason. Just hoping he gets to show up again in some story.

----------


## Alycat

> He can, nobody is saying otherwise. It doesn`t make it less sad   
> 
> It`s pathetic on a fandom level when we happen to know where it comes from. It`s not a surprise genuine joke, it`s just the writer going "Har Har take it". There`s also the chance this sequence was just done at the expense of it which doesn`t earn any browny points. 
> 
> Artwork is fantastic, though. 
> 
> 
> 
> Likely, I`m not actually pleading or hoping. There`s been enough time for some unique Skin to pop up like AK or Priest Jason. Just hoping he gets to show up again in some story.


meh, I think it's funny, but then again I thought the whole thing was funny.  Yes, the art is lovely, although once again, people are having trouble telling the boys apart.

Nah I'm with you on wanting more unique skins. Or at least a non-helmet skin. I'm still salty about 2 MK characters and Black Lightning reduced to a skin.

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Aioros22

I haven`t followed it. I`m taking that BL is a skin of Raiden if we want to keep the similarities in moveset?

----------


## Aioros22

I love those scans but Jason liking dogs that`s not the issue. Having a tug of war over a jacket with the dog the family is not the issue (stars know how many fvcking sweaters me and my brother dog ripped apart), the issue is that is not a genuine moment - or doesn`t feel like it because of a silly Twitter list that both fandom and writer were pissy about. It taints the good feel of the thing. 

Then again if the sequence doesn`t read like that at all, I`ll eat my hat. 

With strawberry to digest it better.

----------


## Alycat

> I haven`t followed it. I`m taking that BL is a skin of Raiden if we want to keep the similarities in moveset?


Yep.  They showed it a few days ago.   Having the DC character be the skin is what annoys me. Cause that means no gear for BL. Only for Raiden and his ugly hat.

----------


## Aioros22

I like the MK characters but if I wanted to play them I`d play the actual game or the MK vs DC we already had for the crossover. 

I`d rather they kept pushing for pop culture icons if they don`t want to use DC characters for the available slots.

----------


## magpieM

> Soy marketing the hell out of his helmet. I can smell some changes in the comic someday.


Gosh I totally underestimated Soy's passion for this character... How lucky to have such an artist for Jason

And the Batman here looks good, too (AK version?)

----------


## G-Potion

> Gosh I totally underestimated Soy's passion for this character... How lucky to have such an artist for Jason
> 
> And the Batman here looks good, too (AK version?)


And the beautiful thing about this, I think, it is a thing that develops as he works on the character since according to his interviews, he didn't read a lot of comics when he was young and didn't seem to know Jason at the time.

----------


## G-Potion

> I love those scans but Jason liking dogs that`s not the issue. Having a tug of war over a jacket with the dog the family is not the issue (stars know how many fvcking sweaters me and my brother dog ripped apart), the issue is that is not a genuine moment - or doesn`t feel like it because of a silly Twitter list that both fandom and writer were pissy about. It taints the good feel of the thing. 
> 
> Then again if the sequence doesn`t read like that at all, I`ll eat my hat. 
> 
> With strawberry to digest it better.


Yeah I'd happily be wrong about this, but so far my reaction is this just looks petty. Even if it turns out to be a feel good moment, I still think  another character would be more fit to have this exchange with the dog.

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> Battle Priest Jason was my number one skin for Injustice. It`s too damn good not to show up again, somewhere. 
> 
> Ya hear me DC?


Ikr. Why does Jason have to be limited to body armor and leather jacket? The man can kick ass in T-shirts and jeans for god's sake.

----------


## Alycat

> Ikr. Why does Jason have to be limited to body armor and leather jacket? The man can kick ass in T-shirts and jeans for god's sake.


They didn't even want to give Green Arrow a hood. Their priorities are wack. I don't need 50 gauntlets that barely change in looks.

----------


## G-Potion

> As for fics, I tried to collect good ones (in my opinion) on A03. I've also written a couple, all Gen fics, mostly revolving around family matters. I wouldn't say they are great, but I got good reviews


Heey, I read your fics! Outsider  was a very cathartic read. Are you planning to write more Jason fics in the future?

----------


## G-Potion

> They didn't even want to give Green Arrow a hood. Their priorities are wack. I don't need 50 gauntlets that barely change in looks.


I heard something about Green Arrow hood in the last watchtower? Or did I misunderstand what they said?

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree we need some more Jason to fill up a slow week. Completely forgot I told G our big bang drawings got cleared so here it is.
> I'm wondering actually if I can manage to rope some of you people into doing bigbangs too.


Since I can't write, is there a kind of bang where you draw some art and I follow up with some relevant art?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Since I can't write, is there a kind of bang where you draw some art and I follow up with some relevant art?


Definitely I see reverse bangs come up more if drawing for a piece of writing is more your thing. Best other option I can think of would be doing a direct art trade so drawing for a drawing. I've seen people pull off drawing entire doujins to trade for another artists doujin but that's... hardcore.

There's also a surprising amount of tea parties for Jason centric events. I think Marcus To (red robin artist) even drew for one that happened just last month but invites tend to go around chinese/japanese circles more.

----------


## G-Potion

> Definitely I see reverse bangs come up more if drawing for a piece of writing is more your thing. Best other option I can think of would be doing a direct art trade so drawing for a drawing. I've seen people pull off drawing entire doujins to trade for another artists doujin but that's... hardcore.
> 
> There's also a surprising amount of tea parties for Jason centric events. I think Marcus To (red robin artist) even drew for one that happened just last month but invites tend to go around chinese/japanese circles more.


Japanes fans and Chinese fans are hardcore. All my drawings take like week or two since I draw in vector and haven't learned how to do it faster yet. I thought having a tablet would speed things up by a lot but apparently I still reverse to using mouse for most things.

How does this art trade thing usually work? Like just draw whatever or you usually have a common theme to work on?

Also I would like to know more about this tea parties thing, for Jason in particular. What is this about?  :EEK!:

----------


## kaimaciel

> Heey, I read your fics! Outsider  was a very cathartic read. Are you planning to write more Jason fics in the future?


If I have the time and inspiration, definitely. The next months will be hard because of my internship and the reports I need to write, but I wanted to update my "Live to Rise" fic first. Also, thank you so much!! I'm so glad you liked it. Outsider is one of my favorite works too.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Japanes fans and Chinese fans are hardcore. All my drawings take like week or two since I draw in vector and haven't learned how to do it faster yet. I thought having a tablet would speed things up by a lot but apparently I still reverse to using mouse for most things.
> 
> How does this art trade thing usually work? Like just draw whatever or you usually have a common theme to work on?
> 
> Also I would like to know more about this tea parties thing, for Jason in particular. What is this about?


Ohhh I've noticed it in your style and I was wondering if you picked vector for its quality or just because you liked vectors final look. That birthday pic is seriously impressive especially knowing the mouse. 
I really like having the tablet to speed things up but its probably because I never broke some old painting habits. 

Last few art trades I did were just we gave eachother characters or situations we want to see the other draw like Jason in arkham gear for a Cass wearing batman hoodies.
 They're super flexible and really depend on who likes what in the trade.

I never imagined saying this but those tea parties are amazingly intense. People bring a lot of Jason merch they have in print to trade with other people of similar Jason interests and I've seen stashes coming out of those with charms, acrylic stands, plushes, bundles of fancomics. This years there was batfam themed tables complete with custom cake and bat themed invitations. Quite a few happen for Jason and Dick, they're also usually located in Taiwan. Its like seeing a mini con happen for the robins where people actually travel and meet up for it.
(Tbh having sold charms before I can also say I'm incredibly tempted to do the batchildren charms, this is a deep deep hole to fall into)

----------


## Aioros22

> They didn't even want to give Green Arrow a hood. Their priorities are wack. I don't need 50 gauntlets that barely change in looks.


No TVArrow or Mike Grell Hunters skin for Green Arrow? C`mon now, those are easy picks. 

If they`re having so much trouble deciding, make a Red Arrow skin so we can have more Outlaws in the game.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ohhh I've noticed it in your style and I was wondering if you picked vector for its quality or just because you liked vectors final look. That birthday pic is seriously impressive especially knowing the mouse. 
> I really like having the tablet to speed things up but its probably because I never broke some old painting habits. 
> 
> Last few art trades I did were just we gave eachother characters or situations we want to see the other draw like Jason in arkham gear for a Cass wearing batman hoodies.
>  They're super flexible and really depend on who likes what in the trade.
> 
> I never imagined saying this but those tea parties are amazingly intense. People bring a lot of Jason merch they have in print to trade with other people of similar Jason interests and I've seen stashes coming out of those with charms, acrylic stands, plushes, bundles of fancomics. This years there was batfam themed tables complete with custom cake and bat themed invitations. Quite a few happen for Jason and Dick, they're also usually located in Taiwan. Its like seeing a mini con happen for the robins where people actually travel and meet up for it.
> (Tbh having sold charms before I can also say I'm incredibly tempted to do the batchildren charms, this is a deep deep hole to fall into)


I like the idea of collabs and art trades. Hummm.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Ah yes, that`s the word...petty. 

As far as Fics, some of my favorite Jason fics are from a time, of long ago, of darkness in the world..you know the drill. Anyhow, during the years he was dead. The stories are close to 15 years old now and they`re from Kaylee that had Jason survive the exposion but having lost one eye and now returning as a new "bat" vigilante called Draco. 

http://glockgirl.tripod.com/dracoverse.html

The ilustrations are dated now and the design isn`t particularly original but look beyond  that and just read the stories, that`s where the strenght lies, in characterization. Particularly "Here There Be" which places characters, all familiar to us, presented at Alfred`s funeral. Cool hint for the new kids on the block, waaaaay before Outlaws, Kaylee had already written in her fics Jason and Roy to have rapport from their sidecick years. Even a bigger foreshadow, Jason`s crush in these stories is...well, you`ll see. Mindblow. 

Some warning for Dick fans, he`s not with Barbara or Kory here. No, don`t cut your wrists, he`s not with Jason either. You`ve been warned nonetheless.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ohhh I've noticed it in your style and I was wondering if you picked vector for its quality or just because you liked vectors final look. That birthday pic is seriously impressive especially knowing the mouse. 
> I really like having the tablet to speed things up but its probably because I never broke some old painting habits. 
> 
> Last few art trades I did were just we gave eachother characters or situations we want to see the other draw like Jason in arkham gear for a Cass wearing batman hoodies.
>  They're super flexible and really depend on who likes what in the trade.
> 
> I never imagined saying this but those tea parties are amazingly intense. People bring a lot of Jason merch they have in print to trade with other people of similar Jason interests and I've seen stashes coming out of those with charms, acrylic stands, plushes, bundles of fancomics. This years there was batfam themed tables complete with custom cake and bat themed invitations. Quite a few happen for Jason and Dick, they're also usually located in Taiwan. Its like seeing a mini con happen for the robins where people actually travel and meet up for it.
> (Tbh having sold charms before I can also say I'm incredibly tempted to do the batchildren charms, this is a deep deep hole to fall into)


The reason I decided to switch to vector was control. Illustrator compensated my lack of tablet with its awesome pen tool (for some reasons I never feel comfortable with Photoshop's pen). After a few drawings I just fell in love with vector's quality as well as final look like you said. 

Wow so you have been to these tea parties? I didn't expect the Japanese fandom to be this alive since I don't see a lot DC/Robins on pixiv. Maybe I need to look more into personal fan pages. 

Also yesss to the bat-charms. Would love to see your rendition of them.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> Ah yes, that`s the word...petty. 
> 
> As far as Fics, some of my favorite Jason fics are from a time, of long ago, of darkness in the world..you know the drill. Anyhow, during the years he was dead. The stories are close to 15 years old now and they`re from Kaylee that had Jason survive the exposion but having lost one eye and now returning as a new "bat" vigilante called Draco. 
> 
> http://glockgirl.tripod.com/dracoverse.html
> 
> The ilustrations are dated now and the design isn`t particularly original but look beyond  that and just read the stories, that`s where the strenght lies, in characterization. Particularly "Here There Be" which places characters, all familiar to us, presented at Alfred`s funeral. Cool hint for the new kids on the block, waaaaay before Outlaws, Kaylee had already written in her fics Jason and Roy to have rapport from their sidecick years. Even a bigger foreshadow, Jason`s crush in these stories is...well, you`ll see. Mindblow. 
> ...


Now that's a gem! Glad I brought up the fanfic recs idea. Coming late to the fandom, I missed so many old quality works, especially if they are not on the Archive. 

Though, the link you posted seems to have only the arts. Link to the fic is down or I'm being very dumb right now I can't find it.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

Ehhhh yay for Wayback Machine!! It livess!!

Dracoverse

Keep it coming, Aioros!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Assam

Nice as this new art is, the sad part is that it potentially has more Jason and Cass interaction then we're gonna be getting in the current arc.  :Frown: 

cass and jason.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.newsarama.com/36543-batm...t-look.html#s6

Art is serviceable but not something I'd call good. and I don't why Jason is even there if he's only used for jokes.

----------


## Aahz

> Art is serviceable but not something I'd call good. and I don't why Jason is even there if he's only used for jokes.


To make the other look good, like always when he appears in Batman books  :Mad:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> To make the other look good, like always when he appears in Batman books


I love and long for Batfam interaction, but never from Tom King. Hard pass.

----------


## Assam

> https://www.newsarama.com/36543-batm...t-look.html#s6
> 
> Art is serviceable but not something I'd call good. and I don't why Jason is even there if he's only used for jokes.


So we've got Jason looking like an idiot to make the others look better to piss off his fans, Cass being excluded to piss off her fans, and Duke being there instead of Tim (albeit for obvious reasons, but even so) to piss off his fans, all the while, apart from the art just being unappealing in general, Dick and Damian aren't being presented in any negative way.

So basically it's business as usual for DC. They really should just hang up a neon sign in the BatCave saying "WE HATE THE MIDDLE BATKIDS" one of these days.  :Mad:

----------


## Alycat

> So we've got Jason looking like an idiot to make the others look better to piss off his fans, Cass being excluded to piss off her fans, and Duke being there instead of Tim (albeit for obvious reasons, but even so) to piss off his fans, all the while, apart from the art just being unappealing in general, Dick and Damian aren't being presented in any negative way.
> 
> So basically it's business as usual for DC. They really should just hang up a neon sign in the BatCave saying "WE HATE THE MIDDLE BATKIDS" one of these days.


No one with sense would've expected Cass to be there. I'm assuming Tim is still dead, so yeah. Who is Jason made to worse than. We don't have any words.  I say Dick looks worst than anyone there because that artr is atrocious. I did'nt even notice anything else.

----------


## TheCape

I don't think that DC hates the midle bat kids, is just that from their point of view, they aren't as easily marketable as Dick or Damian. Richard has seniority, so he recieved some special treatment at keeping his development as Nightwing, so he is "the former boy wonder turned into a solo vigilante that ocasionally aids Batman" from now on and DC is happy with that , Lil' Wayne is the "Son of the Bat" and that's all that you need to know, those roles are easier to sell for then. This is why Tim and Cass had been struggling in the last few years, DC doesn't see any worth on then, outside of their roles as Batgirl and Robin.

Jason is in a weird mid place, because he struck gold with the "Under the Red Hood" storyline and they love the pathos of Batman having a death Robin that came back as an antagonist, but that's about it, is probably the reason of why we would have UTRH on repeat for the coming years, when they decide to adapt Jason's characther.

----------


## The Whovian

> Gosh I totally underestimated Soy's passion for this character... How lucky to have such an artist for Jason
> 
> And the Batman here looks good, too (AK version?)


Yep. I love Soy's art on RHATO

----------


## kiwiliko

> I like the idea of collabs and art trades. Hummm.


The threeway collabs were such a trend but also really fun too. Everyone sketches one pic, lines one pic and colors one pic and you get three drawings with 3 styles each. I think I saw one for gotham sirens with this and the final outcome's real neat.

----------


## Caivu

> and I don't why Jason is even there if he's only used for jokes.





> To make the other look good, like always when he appears in Batman books





> So we've got Jason looking like an idiot to make the others look better to piss off his fans,


...

...

_He is roughousing with a dog_

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> _He is roughousing with a dog_


And what? That is something we should be happy about?

He doesn't even get a reaction panel to whatever Alfred tells them on the last page of the preview, being relegated to sulking like a spoiled child on the background.

----------


## Caivu

> And what? That is something we should be happy about?


I'm confused as to what the problem is.




> He doesn't even get a reaction panel to whatever Alfred tells them on the last page of the preview, being relegated to sulking like a spoiled child on the background.


Uh... yes, he does. It's just not a close-up (he's in the middle-ground).

----------


## Aahz

> I'm confused as to what the problem is.


The problem is that most of us don't like how Jason s written/treated when he appears in Batoffice titles, and this looks like that want change.

----------


## RedBird

> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> _He is roughousing with a dog_


I think its more the context than the actual panel thats getting people on edge. Tom King hasnt written Jason before as anything more than a dope, and this isnt quelling those fears. My hope is that Jason and Ace will bond and we can put that twitter mess to rest. :P Btw does anyone know if theres a longer version of that coloured preview out? I think I saw some more pages somewhere but all I can find is the one panel of Ace wanting belly rubs on TKs twitter.

----------


## Caivu

> The problem is that most of us don't like how Jason s written/treated when he appears in Batoffice titles, *and this looks like that want change.*


What are you _talking_ about? How can this scene possibly make you think that?  :Confused: 




> I think its more the context than the actual panel thats getting people on edge. Tom King hasnt written Jason before as anything more than a dope, and this isnt quelling those fears.


Losing at tug-of-war against a German Shepherd makes him look dopey? I for one don't think so.

----------


## Aahz

> What are you _talking_ about? How can this scene possibly make you think that?


Sorry I meant  "and this looks like that *won't* change." :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> Losing at tug-of-war against a German Shepherd makes him look dopey? I for one don't think so.


How many of the other Batfamily members you see act like that?

And if we take Jasons last appearances in written by King as a reference, it is very unlikely that he will do much else that book.

----------


## RedBird

> What are you _talking_ about? How can this scene possibly make you think that? 
> 
> 
> 
> Losing at tug-of-war against a German Shepherd makes him look dopey? I for one don't think so.


I didnt say it made him look dopey. I said that previous text made him look dopey and that this doesnt seem to be a change of pace. Its not straying far from previous depictions. King uses Jason as comic relief. The dopey jock and nothing more. Having him compete with a dog in a game of tug and war would be a cute scenario if it wasnt for the more eye rollying bitter context of the writing plus the previous 'dopey' depictions of the character that came with it.

----------


## Aahz

And that you have basically every other characters (two of them younger than Jason) eye rolling about Jason behaviour doesn't make it much better.

----------


## Aahz

Here that's for example way better, you have a cute scene of the Batkids with the pets without anyone looking like a dope.

----------


## RedBird

> Here that's for example way better, you have a cute scene of the Batkids with the pets without anyone looking like a dope.


Well now its because that scene was written in a sincere effort to give the kids and pets bonding time, where as this scene is from a writer attempting to flex his power over a stupid twitter debuncle towards fans. Its no different than when filmmakers add film critic characters to their movies only for those characters to be killed off in horrible ways. Its petty. And maybe King will surprise me by attempting to give any sort of depth to Jason as a character but Im doubtful.

----------


## RedBird

> Nice as this new art is, the sad part is that it potentially has more Jason and Cass interaction then we're gonna be getting in the current arc. 
> 
> Attachment 55060


Awww thats adorable, gosh I forget how much I miss Cass's expressive mask. Seriously I hope theres SOMETHING in this arc between them, a small exchange? Anything. I've been dying for these two to interact for a decade now.




> So we've got Jason looking like an idiot to make the others look better to piss off his fans, Cass being excluded to piss off her fans, and Duke being there instead of Tim (albeit for obvious reasons, but even so) to piss off his fans, all the while, apart from the art just being unappealing in general, Dick and Damian aren't being presented in any negative way.
> 
> So basically it's business as usual for DC. They really should just hang up a neon sign in the BatCave saying "WE HATE THE MIDDLE BATKIDS" one of these days.


Yeah, business as usual, I don't really know if its a hate thing, but I feel confident enough in saying that clearly the majority of writers dont really care for the middle bat kids one way or another. Not much fuss is being kicked over getting a chance to write for them, you know besides the obvious handful of writers who are already writing them as mains in their books.

----------


## G-Potion

Also the fact that this exchange is likely to be sparked from a certain twitter tier list. If that is indeed the case then the intention is very far from admirable. And like Aahz said, Jason is the least likely to act like this when being in batfam setting. King has written Jason this way so far but not much else.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah, business as usual, I don't really know if its a hate thing, but I feel confident enough in saying that clearly the majority of writers dont really care for the middle bat kids one way or another. Not much fuss is being kicked over getting a chance to write for them, you know besides the obvious handful of writers who are already writing them as mains their books.


I miss Greg Pak and Lee Bermejo writing Jason.

----------


## RedBird

> I miss Greg Pak and Lee Bermejo writing Jason.


Lee Bermejo was the only writer I recall who claimed to kind of like Jason? Something about Jason being his Robin at the time.

Also was it Pak who had wrote the Batman/Superman issues where Dick Babs and Jason came to assist Supes when Bruce was off forgetting everything and Supes powers were running low? If so I was genuinely surprised by how well Pak captured Jasons morality and perspective in that issue.

----------


## G-Potion

> Lee Bermejo was the only writer I recall who claimed to kind of like Jason? Something about Jason being his Robin at the time.
> 
> Also was it Pak who had wrote the Batman/Superman issues where Dick Babs and Jason came to assist Supes when Bruce was off forgetting everything and Supes powers were running low? If so I was genuinely surprised by how well Pak captured Jasons morality and perspective in that issue.


Yep. Pak also wrote Batman/Superman annual where Jason and Supergirl fought along side Batman and Superman off-world. He captured Jason's boldness but without making it out to be a reckless thing.

----------


## RedBird

> Yep. Pak also wrote Batman/Superman annual where Jason and Supergirl fought along side Batman and Superman off-world. He captured Jason's boldness but without making it out to be a reckless thing.


Oooh right, that was with this scene

basannual.jpg

Jason being his blunt truthful self is what I like to see, and considering Jasons UTRH and AK agenda, apart from the obvious reasons for them, offered an alternative viewpoint to Bruces form of Justice and presented how his war on crime has hurt those around him the most. I'm always here to see more of THAT kind of conflict between these two.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Also the fact that this exchange is likely to be sparked from a certain twitter tier list. If that is indeed the case then the intention is very far from admirable. And like Aahz said, Jason is the least likely to act like this when being in batfam setting. King has written Jason this way so far but not much else.


Yeah, I don't know why anyone is acting obtuse over why people don't find the panel amusing. It's not an organic moment.

----------


## Caivu

> How many of the other Batfamily members you see act like that?


Pretty much all of them...?




> Yeah, I don't know why anyone is acting obtuse over why people don't find the panel amusing. It's not an organic moment.


I'm not being obtuse. I just honestly don't get why this is a thing anyone is concerned about.

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, business as usual, I don't really know if its a hate thing, but I feel confident enough in saying that clearly the majority of writers dont really care for the middle bat kids one way or another. Not much fuss is being kicked over getting a chance to write for them, you know besides the obvious handful of writers who are already writing them as mains their books.


Is more indifirence than hate.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm confused as to what the problem is.



The scene itself isn`t the issue. Is the knowing King is likely making this scene because of a Twitter list argument which takes the good feel out of it. 

If any _other_ writer had done with Titus or any other dog, it would feel organic, we know Jason had a dog(s) as a kid but here is a matter of King + Twitter list + pulling the leg.

----------


## Aioros22

> Is more indifirence than hate.


Yeah, he`s just not as iconic *as Robin* to most writers as Dick is, understandably. That`s the key word, *as* Robin. As Red Hood he`s been fairly used abroad titles and crossover events since his return. In the reboot alone he was showing up in RATHO, Supergirl, Annuals, Superman, Batman&Robin, Batman, Deathstroke..

As Rebirth he`s been showing up in RATHO, Trinity, with cameos in Nigthwing, Gotham City Garage and Batwoman and the Tec and SS appearing soon in his book.

----------


## Aioros22

> And that you have basically every other characters (two of them younger than Jason) eye rolling about Jason behaviour doesn't make it much better.


And this is the part I could care less. They all act silly sometimes. Damian`s entitlemenent isn`t just used to be "cool" you know, he`s been called on it. Tim in Eternal was basically playing the annoying nerd. I want humans being humans, not robots. 

But I think youre reading too far on the rest. Damian has the same face whatching the scene and reading the book and Duke just seems to be talking to Dick. The texts will further things up but I doubt any if them save maybe Dick will throw fun at the scene.

----------


## Savatewolf

The thing is one little change would really change that scene from being worrying to fine and that's Jason's expression. Of he had a grin on his face and showed having fun roughhousing with Ace/Titus (which is it?) Then that would be fine, but the fact that they show him struggling in a serious way thats what makes this so frustrating

----------


## TheCape

> Yeah, he`s just not as iconic as Robin to most writers as Dick is, understandably. That`s the key word, as Robin. As Red Hood he`s been fairly used abroad titles and crossover events since his return. In the reboot alone he was showing up in RATHO, Supergirl, Annuals, Superman, Batman&Robin, Batman, Deathstroke..
> 
> As Rebirth he`s been showing up in RATHO, Trinity, with cameos in Nigthwing, Gotham City Garage and Batwoman and the Tec and SS appearing soon in his book.


When i'm talking about indiference, i refer to his role in the Batfamily, he is mostly there as an afterthought and usually doesn't do much and that can be said too about Tim and Cassandra, he is in an better position because they loved the pathos that his characther brought to Batman and is an easy device for drama when is needed. 

Other writers like his concept as a former Robin that died and came back as an anti-hero or anti-villain, althought how good those showings were, depend of who you ask and having a solo title has helped him to gather a sizable fanbase over the years, so DC see worth in keeping him around, but i doubt that they would give him a big role in the future of the Batfamily, wich is fine by me as long as he keep his solo, i prefer Jason to be as far from the rest of the family as humanely possible.

----------


## Aahz

Maybe I'm over reacting a little bit. But I really waiting to get so good Jason story line in a bigger Batfamily event and him having a  better position in the family. But with the current writers (Snyder, Tynion, King) there seems no chance that this will happen.

And I really fear that their (imo crappy) take on Jason becomes the standard for how he gets written (especially once Lobdell leaves the the book) since their stories reach a much bigger audience than RHatO.

----------


## Aahz

> When i'm talking about indiference, i refer to his role in the Batfamily, he is mostly there as an afterthought and usually doesn't do much and that can be said too about Tim and Cassandra, he is in an better position because they loved the pathos that his characther brought to Batman and is an easy device for drama when is needed.


Tim and Cass have at least their status as the smart guy and the super martial artists, which usually results in them at least contribute something or doing something badass, if they appear in a story. Jason is usually just a punching ball for the villains and a punchline for what the writer think is funny.

----------


## TheCape

> Maybe I'm over reacting a little bit. But I really waiting to get so good Jason story line in a bigger Batfamily event and him having a better position in the family. But with the current writers (Snyder, Tynion, King) there seems no chance that this will happen.


I think that neither King or Snyder care that much about the Batfamily in general, but Robin and Nigthwing are big enought brands to not get rid of then, so i forsee only Dick and Damian getting anything of importance with the current realm. Tynion loves the Batfamily, but they were created after Jason's time, so althought he doesn't dislike him, i don't think that he has the best grasp on his characther, i mean he's able to get Tim, Cass, Steph and Jean Paul well enougth, in a basic level at least, but he probably has some missconceptions about Todd.

----------


## TheCape

> Tim and Cass have at least their status as the smart guy and the super martial artists, which usually results in them at least contribute something or doing something badass, if they appear in a story. Jason is usually just a punching ball for the villains and a punchline for what the writer think is funny.


Yeah, but that's like the surface of their characthers, maybe is slightly better than Jason, but not by much.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And this is the part I could care less. They all act silly sometimes. Damian`s entitlemenent isn`t just used to be "cool" you know, he`s been called on it. Tim in Eternal was basically playing the annoying nerd. I want humans being humans, not robots. 
> 
> But I think youre reading too far on the rest. Damian has the same face whatching the scene and reading the book and Duke just seems to be talking to Dick. The texts will further things up but I doubt any if them save maybe Dick will throw fun at the scene.


Is one thing to act silly because "Hey, we're just having fun here" and another very different to act silly because "Look how much of an idiot he is". King always use the latter and never the former when it comes to Jason.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, but that's like the surface of their characthers, maybe is slightly better than Jason, but not by much.


Yeah, seeing Cass be badass and Tim be super smart is neutral. Nothing _wrong_ with that, but there's nothing good about it either, because those aspects of the characters really don't factor in much as to why they're so loved.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, seeing Cass be badass and Tim be super smart is neutral. Nothing _wrong_ with that, but there's nothing good about it either, because those aspects of the characters really don't factor in much as to why they're so loved.


But it at least prevents them usually from being seen as not good enough for the job (opposed to Jason and Steph).

----------


## TheCape

> But it at least prevents them usually from being seen as not good enough for the job (opposed to Jason and Steph).


Those arguments still exist?, after having both characthers having solos that show the contrary, i thought than that has died down. Besides that, at least Jason still have a book when he is allowed to be a characther regurlary, his bond with Artemis and Bizzarro has warm many people, personally, it made me like the post-New 52 version of him (the fact that this dynamic with this team is far better than the last one, helps a lot) and Steph has a sort of small sucess with her Batgirl solo.

----------


## magpieM

I just finished reading RHATO rebirth #14 (I'm always late in such things...)
Ma Gunn to Bizarro: "... I came across these letters recently in my home. They're from Jason's late father. To his son."

So Ma Gun already knows that this well-known Red Hood at her place is Jason Todd, who was once a little boy in her school and later helped Batman to send her in jail, right? Jason denied it back to rebirth issue #1 but now she figured it out anyway. Jason saved her life from the explosion at that time so I think they are at least even.

And she also knows that who's Jason's father, and that he's dead. She could get that information from many sources. She may know that when she was in jail, too. 

1. Content of those letters:
I believe there were tons of things that Willis wanted to tell Jason. They must be very emotional and can draw a lot of tears from readers since they were the last words from a dead man to his son. Besides that, I wonder if he revealed some secrets about his life. For example, Jason might have another half sibling existed, or, something about Jason's biological mother, Sheila Haywood. I can also imagine that he kept some secrets about Two-Face's business or other things in the crime underworld in Gotham that can be Jason's future targets.

2. About this "Miss Ma Gunn" and her school:
There is a lot to explore behind this character. Not just her own back story (I feel like she might have kids), but also her connections in Gotham. So many wayward boys were under her "control" in the past few decades. Jason must have a lot of "_Alumni_" actively doing crime-related business in Gotham or other places.

3. About that mysterious guy:
Now that Ma Gunn had confirmed Willis's death, there is little possibility that this mysterious guy was Jason's father. The bullet hole on his suit might by misleading. Whillis did not seem to be a high-level intelligent criminal to lever Grundy out. Back to issue #6 there was LEX CORP card on his pin board. I have a feeling that he is Lex's henchman or something similar to keep track with Bizarro and to bring Lex to the scene at the right moment. (if he really is Jason's father, a lot of things need to explain about how he end up at current situation)


"The _PAST_ is in the past, Faye." No way Bizarro, past never dies. It doesn't apply to any of you. I hope they do not just waste this important clue. Better use those letters. They have huge potential for future stories.

----------


## Aioros22

Has Ma Gunn flat out said Jason`s father _is_ dead or does she just assume he is like Jason tends to do? 

Since the reboot, they`ve been careful not to give an actual conformation of Wills Todd status quo. Jason assumes he died in jail because last he saw him he was being taken into costudy but in Death Of The Family, Joker plays with it hinting his dad was there and Jason paused, implying there`s no confirmation as far as the characters know.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> And what? That is something we should be happy about?
> 
> He doesn't even get a reaction panel to whatever Alfred tells them on the last page of the preview, being relegated to sulking like a spoiled child on the background.


You are easily one of the most triggered Jason Todd fans there is.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Has Ma Gunn flat out said Jason`s father _is_ dead or does she just assume he is like Jason tends to do? 
> 
> Since the reboot, they`ve been careful not to give an actual conformation of Wills Todd status quo. Jason assumes he died in jail because last he saw him he was being taken into costudy but in Death Of The Family, Joker plays with it hinting his dad was there and Jason paused, implying there`s no confirmation as far as the characters know.


DOTF was an act to get Joker to down his guard and let Jason and Tim counterattack though.

----------


## magpieM

> Has Ma Gunn flat out said Jason`s father _is_ dead or does she just assume he is like Jason tends to do?


Well her exact words were: "...From Jason's late father." So it appears that to her knowledge (may as well as Jason's), his father died. 

It's not likely for her to get the info from Jason. I don't think they'd become that intimate to talk about such issue. In fact, I don't think Jason would mention his biological father with anyone in the world, not even with Batman. Batman is the true (and very strong) father figure he holds in mind. Willis had become a long burried, vague, personal memory in his early days. It's just totally unnecessary to talk about.

----------


## magpieM

It's possible that Willis somehow managed to fake his own death to get rid of Two-Face's hunt. He may be dead or alive, or be the mysterious guy or not. It doesn't matter to me as long as good stories are told and gaps are filled.

----------


## Aioros22

> DOTF was an act to get Joker to down his guard and let Jason and Tim counterattack though.


The fight was an act but when Joker at the end tells him the taped guy (was it?) is his father Jason pauses, meaning even he`s not interiely sure and his monologue confirms that vibe. 

Ma Gunn may be assuming he died because his letters stopped arriving, It`s a pretty logical assumption to make since she would only know of him through the same.

----------


## G-Potion

If he's dead then it's hard to say what the point of all this happening is.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's possible that Willis somehow managed to fake his own death to get rid of Two-Face's hunt. He may be dead or alive, or be the mysterious guy or not. It doesn't matter to me as long as good stories are told and gaps are filled.


Yeah, who knows, maybe the last letter he sent was to tell his son he likely wouldn`t be around any longer and that`s where Ma draws her conclusion from. Jason is bound to come across the letters anytime soon so we`ll know. I`m really interested in the fate of Wills Todd because what they`re doing is working on a plot Max Collins had in mind back in the 80`s before Starlin took over. 

It`s a bit like going full circle and should expand his background even further.

----------


## G-Potion

If true then Lobdell is seriously digging into Jason's publication history. Which is _great_.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Assumed dead isn`t dead without a body. Even more true in comics  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

Is anyone here reading Retrograde Motion by Lysical? The 100k word monster of de-aged Jason fluff and angst. I'm not at all a fan of the trope, but this fic is seriously worth giving a try. Very well researched, good characterization, good dialogs all the way and I have to give it to the author for being bold enough to commit to the trope deconstruction intent, regardless of whether it is well received or not. 

Really one of the best and most prolific gen Jason writers at the moment. Hope there will be other big projects like this with adult Jason in the future.

PS: I know kiwiliko reads it. I saw the fanart. Post it here kiwi!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

> @t G
> 
> Assumed dead isn`t dead without a body. Even more true in comics


I believe back in the Collins days it actually said presumed dead on Batman's file. But yeah Lobdell could have a lot of material if he wanted to use older comics just on what was said about Willis in passing. Does he still have the Two Face connection? Are we going to get an explanation for why he had Shiva's name in his address book? RHATO #0, I think, had a lot of information, Willis was apparently one of the youngest of six or seven kids.

----------


## Aahz

Indeed I completely forgot about that.

----------


## Alycat

> Is anyone here reading Retrograde Motion by Lysical? The 100k word monster of de-aged Jason fluff and angst. I'm not at all a fan of the trope, but this fic is seriously worth giving a try. Very well researched, good characterization, good dialogs all the way and I have to give it to the author for being bold enough to commit to the trope deconstruction intent, regardless of whether it is well received or not. 
> 
> Really one of the best and most prolific gen Jason writers at the moment. Hope there will be other big projects like this with adult Jason in the future.
> 
> PS: I know kiwiliko reads it. I saw the fanart. Post it here kiwi!


Yes. I actaully like and understand why she handled the ending the way she did, but I fully understand why people might not. For example, I legit think we shouldve gotten more of Bruce's pov( people keep crapping on him, but he has great points)and I dunno more reluctance from the other. Like there should'nt be sides like the author says, but in the fic it does in fact come across as being sides. I disgaree alot of what they say about canon  and writing, but that doesnt change that the fics are pretty good.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Is anyone here reading Retrograde Motion by Lysical? The 100k word monster of de-aged Jason fluff and angst. I'm not at all a fan of the trope, but this fic is seriously worth giving a try. Very well researched, good characterization, good dialogs all the way and I have to give it to the author for being bold enough to commit to the trope deconstruction intent, regardless of whether it is well received or not. 
> 
> Really one of the best and most prolific gen Jason writers at the moment. Hope there will be other big projects like this with adult Jason in the future.
> 
> PS: I know kiwiliko reads it. I saw the fanart. Post it here kiwi!


Yes, I read it. It was one of my favorites. I looked forward to it updating every week.

----------


## EMarie

> 1. Content of those letters:
> I believe there were tons of things that Willis wanted to tell Jason. They must be very emotional and can draw a lot of tears from readers since they were the last words from a dead man to his son. Besides that, I wonder if he revealed some secrets about his life. For example, Jason might have another half sibling existed, or, something about Jason's biological mother, Sheila Haywood. I can also imagine that he kept some secrets about Two-Face's business or other things in the crime underworld in Gotham that can be Jason's future targets.


Lobdell is really fleshing out Willis. The stuff we learned about him in the first RHATO and what Jason told Duella in Red Hood/Arsenal was mostly bad. But Lobdell also writes bits with Willis being proud of Jason and going out of his way to get them into the circus. Whatever way Lobdell chooses to write it this will be emotional. As for siblings, I can see it working both ways. Jason talked about his dad having affairs which makes it possible. On the other hand despite being described as a screwed up father he still stuck around. Even though he complained about it Jason must have meant something to him since he kept coming home until he was imprisoned. Having another kid, unless he wasn't aware of it until much later, seems off. I'm hoping for clarification on his mom situation too. I'd like to know what Willis was doing especially what earned him a life sentence. We also know he ran into Batman and escaped since he showed off his bat shaped bruise.




> 2. About this "Miss Ma Gunn" and her school:
> There is a lot to explore behind this character. Not just her own back story (I feel like she might have kids), but also her connections in Gotham. So many wayward boys were under her "control" in the past few decades. Jason must have a lot of "_Alumni_" actively doing crime-related business in Gotham or other places.


I think the original story had her mentioning being married. I could see her having kids. But it would be cool to see how and why she started training boys to be criminals. I could see her having a lot of connections because of her school. 




> 3. About that mysterious guy:
> Now that Ma Gunn had confirmed Willis's death, there is little possibility that this mysterious guy was Jason's father. The bullet hole on his suit might by misleading. Whillis did not seem to be a high-level intelligent criminal to lever Grundy out. Back to issue #6 there was LEX CORP card on his pin board. I have a feeling that he is Lex's henchman or something similar to keep track with Bizarro and to bring Lex to the scene at the right moment. (if he really is Jason's father, a lot of things need to explain about how he end up at current situation)
> 
> 
> "The _PAST_ is in the past, Faye." No way Bizarro, past never dies. It doesn't apply to any of you. I hope they do not just waste this important clue. Better use those letters. They have huge potential for future stories.


I have to agree with others that this doesn't really confirm Willis is dead. I don't think Lobdell ever stated how Willis died in jail, the whole thing is vague at the moment. If the bullet holes are an allusion to his death when they quickly tried to sweep Jason's plots away in DITF it would be a neat Easter egg. The suit guy could just have enough sway to get things done. Lobdell is building up Willis as having more depth so he could be smarter than we think. I thought the Lex Corp card was from someone that Black Mask paid off to get Bizarro on the train. If this suit guy is connected in some way it makes sense that he'd have it. I can't see a Lex Corp employee pinning their card on a board to track the connections of the Outlaws.

True and if it is Willis I suspect that would happen. This would be the biggest thing to rock Jason's character in years. Yeah I think even Bizarro realized he was only delaying th inevitable. Unless editorial vetoes whatever Lobdell has in mind there's no way he brought the letters up and won't use them. It will probably be the second bad occurrence he has from family paper work.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Lobdell had planned about Jason having a little sister during RHATO v1 (that's why Catherine looks pregnant on issue 0 and why she's shown at Jason's funeral) and eventually introduce her as the new Scarlet, but those plans were interrupted by the book passing over to Tynion and despite returning to the book, he scrapped those plans entirely. He also had plans about using Willis during RH/A but those also were scrapped, this time by Rebirth.

----------


## Alycat

> Lobdell had planned about Jason having a little sister during RHATO v1 (that's why Catherine looks pregnant on issue 0 and why she's shown at Jason's funeral) and eventually introduce her as the new Scarlet, but those plans were interrupted by the book passing over to Tynion and despite returning to the book, he scrapped those plans entirely. He also had plans about using Willis during RH/A but those also were scrapped, this time by Rebirth.


That sounds awful tbh, so glad it was scrapped. I totally thought that was Babs at the funeral too. That said the lack of anything on Willis makes his return much more interesting.

----------


## RedBird

> Lobdell had planned about Jason having a little sister during RHATO v1 (that's why Catherine looks pregnant on issue 0 and why she's shown at Jason's funeral) and eventually introduce her as the new Scarlet, but those plans were interrupted by the book passing over to Tynion and despite returning to the book, he scrapped those plans entirely. He also had plans about using Willis during RH/A but those also were scrapped, this time by Rebirth.


I mean, on the outskirt I actually kinda like it, wouldn't actually mind too much if the idea came to fruition one day, key words, _one day_. Considering _when_ those issues of rhato were written I'm kinda glad the little sister idea was scrapped. A revelation like that would be way to big and game changing, and frankly way too soon in Jasons development, at the time. (at least according to his progression then in rhato v1). The character had enough on his plate with a load of crumby pre52 ooc/bad writing baggage to get rid of first in order to establish the new status quo in new52. So, yeah, Baby steps folks, baby steps.

Besides I actually kinda liked the original Scarlet, she was interesting enough, but Morrisons awful characterization of Jason and the relationship he creates between the two felt way too ooc, especially for a character whose comeback literally featured him reviling using children in the war against crime, seriously why is that concept so hard for the writers to understand?

----------


## Aioros22

> That sounds awful tbh, so glad it was scrapped. I totally thought that was Babs at the funeral too. That said the lack of anything on Willis makes his return much more interesting.


By awful you mean the sister reveal, I`ll take? Because we`re definatly going to see a twist involving Wills Tood eventually. 

I wouldn`t mind a sister plot on the fact alone but Redbird is right, that one is way too a big changer and you can`t do it all of a sudden. Part of the appeal of Jason is him surviving the slums of Gotham on his own. Even if the girl was adopted as a baby there`s no way he wouldn`t try to reach her down, he`s that loyal to the people he cares about. You would need to really make it work so it doesn`t come at the expense of Jason`s character.

----------


## Aioros22

Gotham City Garage


John Nugroho/Jakarta

----------


## G-Potion

That's really Jason in second pic? _Cool_!

----------


## EMarie

> Lobdell had planned about Jason having a little sister during RHATO v1 (that's why Catherine looks pregnant on issue 0 and why she's shown at Jason's funeral) and eventually introduce her as the new Scarlet, but those plans were interrupted by the book passing over to Tynion and despite returning to the book, he scrapped those plans entirely. He also had plans about using Willis during RH/A but those also were scrapped, this time by Rebirth.


I knew about the sister thing but not about the plans to use Willis during Red Hood and Arsenal. If Jason has more family I don't think it should all come out at once.

I like the idea of Willis returning and getting to see more of part of Jason's life we hardly hear about.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> @t G
> 
> Assumed dead isn`t dead without a body. Even more true in comics


My rule of thumb for Gotham has always been if a character dies and there is no body then the character in question is likely alive.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, that pic was tagged Jason but even without that I`d venture it be him anyhow. Too much extra in one pic for it to be Bruce or anyone else. 

Joker is: tied up with a phone (StuntTM) with a bag over his head pictured with a smiley (happy callar!) with the sassy Na Na Na on his back while he`s been "shot" in film. 

And oh, explosives. Almost missed those. 

That`s Jason practising his next Super move alright.

----------


## Alycat

> By awful you mean the sister reveal, I`ll take? Because we`re definatly going to see a twist involving Wills Tood eventually. 
> 
> I wouldn`t mind a sister plot on the fact alone but Redbird is right, that one is way too a big changer and you can`t do it all of a sudden. Part of the appeal of Jason is him surviving the slums of Gotham on his own. Even if the girl was adopted as a baby there`s no way he wouldn`t try to reach her down, he`s that loyal to the people he cares about. You would need to really make it work so it doesn`t come at the expense of Jason`s character.


Yeah I meant the sister idea, not the Willis stuff. I'm interested in the Willis stuff, becuase Jason never seemed as attached to his father as his mother but like as seen from the annual and the letters, Willis did care. So the contrast with Bruce, who he clearly sees as a father will be interesting. I'm curious to see how its handled.

----------


## Powertool

> My rule of thumb for Gotham has always been if a character dies and there is no body then the character in question is likely alive.


I don't know... did Jean-Paul Valley ever appear again before the 2011 reboot? There was Michael Lane as Azrael II, then his appearance as a Black Lantern -- all things considered, he could be the exception to the rule.

----------


## magpieM

> I have to agree with others that this doesn't really confirm Willis is dead. I don't think Lobdell ever stated how Willis died in jail, the whole thing is vague at the moment. If the bullet holes are an allusion to his death when they quickly tried to sweep Jason's plots away in DITF it would be a neat Easter egg. The suit guy could just have enough sway to get things done. Lobdell is building up Willis as having more depth so he could be smarter than we think. I thought the Lex Corp card was from someone that Black Mask paid off to get Bizarro on the train. If this suit guy is connected in some way it makes sense that he'd have it. I can't see a Lex Corp employee pinning their card on a board to track the connections of the Outlaws.
> 
> True and if it is Willis I suspect that would happen. This would be the biggest thing to rock Jason's character in years. Yeah I think even Bizarro realized he was only delaying th inevitable. Unless editorial vetoes whatever Lobdell has in mind there's no way he brought the letters up and won't use them. It will probably be the second bad occurrence he has from family paper work.


 :EEK!:  Wow, thank you for your response! This suit guy seems to know Jason is Red Hood, too (he knows he was once in Ma Gunn's school, adopted by Bruce Wayne, died and resurrected, fought against Batman and now team up as Dark Trinity). It makes sense if he is Willis. But I still have doubt about it because I'm not fully convinced that they really made their mind to do it.

Jason and his father face to face would become a "ground-shifting" moment to his origin, not just for RHATO Rebirth, but also for the entire history of this character in the past 3 decades. Willis is no "plot device" like Akila for Artemis. He is Jason's d*** father. He won't just show up, give Jason a hug "good to see you son! I'm alive" then disappear! It's very possible that he stays around and becomes part of Jason's circle around him. Then Red Hood as a character would become more independent from Batfam. Jason's parents had never been on the center stage of the story line, except the story of Jason's death. I can see why DC only vaguely assumes Willis's dead but never confirms it.

----------


## magpieM

RHATO Rebirth went very emotional and dark than N52. Considering Jason's mental condition in the cell in Qurac, and their bonds with Bizarro that developed so well and deep, I can see a more emotional moment of Jason meeting his father happen. If it's part of their original plan, then Alex Antone and Lobdell must have worked out a very ambitious and complicated story line to keep all the future Rebirth story consistent. But now Alex is no longer the editor. It would be a shame if Willis won't show up in the end.

I'd be totally ecstatic if it happens. But I don't want to keep my expectation too high then see they drop it.

----------


## G-Potion

I hope what Antone said as he left RHATO is true. That the plan for the future is great for RHATO.

----------


## Alycat

> Wow, thank you for your response! This suit guy seems to know Jason is Red Hood, too (he knows he was once in Ma Gunn's school, adopted by Bruce Wayne, died and resurrected, fought against Batman and now team up as Dark Trinity). It makes sense if he is Willis. But I still have doubt about it because I'm not fully convinced that they really made their mind to do it.
> 
> Jason and his father face to face would become a "ground-shifting" moment to his origin, not just for RHATO Rebirth, but also for the entire history of this character in the past 3 decades. Willis is no "plot device" like Akila for Artemis. He is Jason's d*** father. He won't just show up, give Jason a hug "good to see you son! I'm alive" then disappear! It's very possible that he stays around and becomes part of Jason's circle around him. Then Red Hood as a character would become more independent from Batfam. Jason's parents had never been on the center stage of the story line, except the story of Jason's death. I can see why DC only vaguely assumes Willis's dead but never confirms it.


I don't see why it would make him less connected to the Batfam? I would expect it to emphasize and improve his relationship with Bruce, not lessen it. Especially with how picky fans are about adoption erasure and complaints about treating biological family as the only important family. His mainstream appeal is also connected to his relationship to the Batfam. I don't see it ever lessening again.

----------


## Aioros22

I just can imagine Wills reveal to hit the Empire Strikes Back at Jason. 

"Whaa? Nooooo"!

----------


## magpieM

> I don't see why it would make him less connected to the Batfam? I would expect it to emphasize and improve his relationship with Bruce, not lessen it. Especially with how picky fans are about adoption erasure and complaints about treating biological family as the only important family. His mainstream appeal is also connected to his relationship to the Batfam. I don't see it ever lessening again.


Like what I said, I believe Batman is the only and very strong father figure Jason holds in his heart. I don't think Willis' coming back could challenge that at all (if he really comes back). Jason has proved that he himself doesn't need any blood bond to adopt a child and form a family. His bond with Bizarro and Artemis is truthful and deep. My apology if I mislead you that I'm implying Willis can lessen Jason's bond with Batfam, or that I'm implying adopted kids are less than biological ones.

I think being more independent from Batfam doesn't mean him becoming less connected to them. Facing his own father would definitely have great impact on him. He'd ask questions and rethink a lot of things, including Batman. He'd learn a lot from it and grow up more, which would eventually benefit all of them. By independent I also mean that technically Jason would have more sources and connections based on himself. If he's too busy with his booming crime-fighting business, it is possible that he shows less around Batfam physically. But deep down his bond with Bat can only be stronger.

----------


## Alycat

> Like what I said, I believe Batman is the only and very strong father figure Jason holds in his heart. I don't think Willis' coming back could challenge that at all (if he really comes back). Jason has proved that he himself doesn't need any blood bond to adopt a child and form a family. His bond with Bizarro and Artemis is truthful and deep. My apology if I mislead you that I'm implying Willis can lessen Jason's bond with Batfam, or that I'm implying adopted kids are less than biological ones.
> 
> I think being more independent from Batfam doesn't mean him becoming less connected to them. Facing his own father would definitely have great impact on him. He'd ask questions and rethink a lot of things, including Batman. He'd learn a lot from it and grow up more, which would eventually benefit all of them. By independent I also mean that technically Jason would have more sources and connections based on himself. If he's too busy with his booming crime-fighting business, it is possible that he shows less around Batfam physically. But deep down his bond with Bat can only be stronger.


I understand what you mean now. I'd also like to see Jason growing his connections in a good way. I personally did not feel like N52 was all that succesful with it, but its clear that the idea is still there and its already started really well with Ma Gunn.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RHATO Rebirth went very emotional and dark than N52. Considering Jason's mental condition in the cell in Qurac, and their bonds with Bizarro that developed so well and deep, I can see a more emotional moment of Jason meeting his father happen. If it's part of their original plan, then Alex Antone and Lobdell must have worked out a very ambitious and complicated story line to keep all the future Rebirth story consistent. But now Alex is no longer the editor. It would be a shame if Willis won't show up in the end.
> 
> I'd be totally ecstatic if it happens. But I don't want to keep my expectation too high then see they drop it.


I disagree. Both N52 and DCYou had their emotional and dark moments as well on DOTF and Future's End for the N52 and the entire arc with Duela on RH/A

----------


## EMarie

How Jason feels about Willis has been hinted but I remember Jason thinking Bruce was the closet thing he had to a father at the start of this run before cutting himself off. Willis seems to have more depth than simply being Jason's bad father. Good thing too because if he's simply a jerk then we'll miss out on a more emotional story. Wasn't it said that his parents had Jason in their teens? That's a lot material to cover right there since Willis and whoever the mom is in Rebirth canon weren't ready for a kid.

Jason needs to have more of his story told and Willis would be a perfect way to do it. I can even see potential drama for Bruce's reaction.

----------


## G-Potion

> I disagree. Both N52 and DCYou had their emotional and dark moments as well on DOTF and Future's End for the N52 and the entire arc with Duela on RH/A


I have to agree. RHATO Vol1 and RH/A laid a lot of groundwork for Jason in terms of character development. The arc with Duela was a stroke of genius and it affected Jason in a big way. If RHATO and RH/A didn't happen, it would make Jason caring for Bizarro and Artemis less believable. The ending of RH/A, to me, still holds as the most emotional scene, and the biggest sacrifice Jason has done so far.

----------


## G-Potion

Just to make it a pair with Aioros's last art post.  :Frown: 




> John Nugroho/Jakarta


[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/045/922/large/ar-siu-p6-ok-cv-s.jpg?1503286243[/img]

From Ar Siu

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Just to make it a pair with Aioros's last art post. 
> 
> 
> 
> [img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/045/922/large/ar-siu-p6-ok-cv-s.jpg?1503286243[/img]
> 
> From Ar Siu


That last one is really pushing it too far.

----------


## G-Potion

I do feel bad about it but... you have to admit they match... the poses even mirror each other.  :Frown:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Is anyone here reading Retrograde Motion by Lysical? The 100k word monster of de-aged Jason fluff and angst. I'm not at all a fan of the trope, but this fic is seriously worth giving a try. Very well researched, good characterization, good dialogs all the way and I have to give it to the author for being bold enough to commit to the trope deconstruction intent, regardless of whether it is well received or not. 
> 
> Really one of the best and most prolific gen Jason writers at the moment. Hope there will be other big projects like this with adult Jason in the future.
> 
> PS: I know kiwiliko reads it. I saw the fanart. Post it here kiwi!


Yup you caught me. I'm a sucker for any 100k monsters featuring young Jason.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I have to agree. RHATO Vol1 and RH/A laid a lot of groundwork for Jason to in terms of character development. The arc with Duela was a stroke of genius and it affected Jason in a big way. If RHATO and RH/A didn't happen, it would make Jason caring for Bizarro and Artemis less believable. The ending of RH/A, to me, still holds as the most emotional scene, and the biggest sacrifice Jason has done so far.


Oh god yes. 
I read through RH/A just enjoying their banter so much it took me a reread to realize this was basically Lobdell and Jasons big middle finger to DC for running a poll whether or not to kill a kid. I get that a lot of people had issues with RH/A largely because Roy's characterization wasn't staying true to what was built up for him in previous runs but as someone who wasn't introduced to Roy as first being Dick's friend, I found RH/A to be pretty heavily emotional. 

Don't know if I saw that as a sacrifice for the better good but it certainly gave us a look at how deeply his issues run with his self perception and how willing he is to throw himself away if he thinks it will help someone.

----------


## Jovos2099

I've imagined willis todd being something like Frank Gallagher from the showtime show shameless

----------


## EMarie

> Oh god yes. 
> I read through RH/A just enjoying their banter so much it took me a reread to realize this was basically Lobdell and Jasons big middle finger to DC for running a poll whether or not to kill a kid. I get that a lot of people had issues with RH/A largely because Roy's characterization wasn't staying true to what was built up for him in previous runs but as someone who wasn't introduced to Roy as first being Dick's friend, I found RH/A to be pretty heavily emotional. 
> 
> Don't know if I saw that as a sacrifice for the better good but it certainly gave us a look at how deeply his issues run with his self perception and how willing he is to throw himself away if he thinks it will help someone.


I read the old Roy and I didn't mind the one Lobdell wrote. He was supposed to change things because of the new 52 anyway and Roy didn't have a daughter any more. Jason has gotten A LOT of character development under Lobdell starting from someone that got mad at the mere mention of being friends/a team to now actively reaching out to his friends. Lobdell has connected characterizations from the past too like Jason and Duella's talk after he reveals he knows she kept the mask. Their talk about the Joker creating him goes back to his fears when Joker messed with him in the DOTF tie in.

Jason being self sacrificing could go back to DITF. Yeah he couldn't do much in the situation but he still true to shield Sheila from the blast even though she betrayed him.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I read the old Roy and I didn't mind the one Lobdell wrote. He was supposed to change things because of the new 52 anyway and Roy didn't have a daughter any more. Jason has gotten A LOT of character development under Lobdell starting from someone that got mad at the mere mention of being friends/a team to now actively reaching out to his friends. Lobdell has connected characterizations from the past too like Jason and Duella's talk after he reveals he knows she kept the mask. Their talk about the Joker creating him goes back to his fears when Joker messed with him in the DOTF tie in.
> 
> Jason being self sacrificing could go back to DITF. Yeah he couldn't do much in the situation but he still true to shield Sheila from the blast even though she betrayed him.


Oh yeah he definitely has a self sacrifice streak somewhere. I might not have expressed what I meant the right way though. The Jason from DITF shielded Sheila because that was the kind of person he is and something he would do as both Robin and Jason. When he left Arsenal it was still a case of he does this because he feels Arsenal will get to benefit but at the same time he left because he thought he was someone bringing Arsenal down. The focus got shared between he made a sacrifice for someone else and he does so because the value he puts on himself will always be much lower than the value he puts on other people. 

I'm starting to go through older Roy issues and fair enough, his character felt different for N52 to happen but at the same time it didn't feel like a butchering the way Damian often goes through under a bad writer.

----------


## G-Potion

Eee Arkham Jay and the Outlaws by laizy-boy

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh yeah he definitely has a self sacrifice streak somewhere. I might not have expressed what I meant the right way though. The Jason from DITF shielded Sheila because that was the kind of person he is and something he would do as both Robin and Jason. When he left Arsenal it was still a case of he does this because he feels Arsenal will get to benefit but at the same time he left because he thought he was someone bringing Arsenal down. The focus got shared between he made a sacrifice for someone else and he does so because the value he puts on himself will always be much lower than the value he puts on other people. 
> 
> I'm starting to go through older Roy issues and fair enough, his character felt different for N52 to happen but at the same time it didn't feel like a butchering the way Damian often goes through under a bad writer.


Lobdell got a lot of flak for how much Roy was changed but a lot of it came from editorial. Like no Lian and Roy not being the leader of the Outlaws. Those are the kind of decisions that had to be passed down from the higher-ups.

----------


## G-Potion

Spwishhh!

----------


## Alycat

> Lobdell got a lot of flak for how much Roy was changed but a lot of it came from editorial. Like no Lian and Roy not being the leader of the Outlaws. Those are the kind of decisions that had to be passed down from the higher-ups.


True. Although I the way he wrote his personality was still grating. Amazingly enough, Percy seems to be writing a pretty good Roy despite writing a horrible Titans book. Some writers just do better with certain characters.

----------


## G-Potion

> True. Although I the way he wrote his personality was still grating. Amazingly enough, Percy seems to be writing a pretty good Roy despite writing a horrible Titans book. Some writers just do better with certain characters.


You mean Abnett? His Roy was the only good character in the whole Titans Hunt

----------


## EMarie

> Oh yeah he definitely has a self sacrifice streak somewhere. I might not have expressed what I meant the right way though. The Jason from DITF shielded Sheila because that was the kind of person he is and something he would do as both Robin and Jason. When he left Arsenal it was still a case of he does this because he feels Arsenal will get to benefit but at the same time he left because he thought he was someone bringing Arsenal down. The focus got shared between he made a sacrifice for someone else and he does so because the value he puts on himself will always be much lower than the value he puts on other people. 
> 
> I'm starting to go through older Roy issues and fair enough, his character felt different for N52 to happen but at the same time it didn't feel like a butchering the way Damian often goes through under a bad writer.


I got what you meant I just felt that in general Jason has a self sacrificing streak. I agree. Throughout Red Hood/Arsenal Jason is worried about Roy and Roy tries to hide how deeply he is being affected by his break up with Kori, his resurfacing Titans memories, the Iron Rule and struggling with alcoholism. Jason talks with him directly. Gives him space to talk to Killer Croc while pretending he doesn't know that's what Roy is doing. This is going on while Jason was going through his own problems.

With Bruce dying and relating with Duella thus connecting her impossible redemption to himself. Roy checked in on Jason when he spied on him talking to Bruce but he didn't seem to get why Jason was so determined to save Duella. Just like Joker got into his head about creating him Duella further messed with Jason's perception of himself. Since he already has issues of self worth it made them worse. Roy wanted to be a hero and part of a team, Jason felt he was holding him back.

I saw it more as a defense mechanism for Roy to joke around more. He was mostly left to his own devises while struggling with addiction. Plus I could see him trying to stay more positive to stay strong. Yeah it was different but like you said I've seen much worse. Agreed. I've also read horrible writing for Jason.

----------


## Alycat

> You mean Abnett? His Roy was the only good character in the whole Titans Hunt


No, I meant Percy in Green Arrow. He writes Roy fine there but writes a bad (Teen) Titans book overall. I also agree with you about Abnett, his Roy was fine, but Titans as a whole is trash.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You mean Abnett? His Roy was the only good character in the whole Titans Hunt


Abnett's take on Roy is actually pretty in line with Lobdell's so much that Titan's Hunt works perfectly as the follow up to RH/A in fact. Percy's take on the other hand has been insufferable for me. Although I admit I'm biased, RHATO is the first and only time I've cared for Roy as character.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## SpentShrimp

> Abnett's take on Roy is actually pretty in line with Lobdell's so much that Titan's Hunt works perfectly as the follow up to RH/A in fact. Percy's take on the other hand has been insufferable for me. Although I admit I'm biased, RHATO is the first and only time I've cared for Roy as character.


He is so much better than what he was in the last 5 years of the Pre-Flashpoint continuity. That version of Roy was just bad.

----------


## magpieM

> I disagree. Both N52 and DCYou had their emotional and dark moments as well on DOTF and Future's End for the N52 and the entire arc with Duela on RH/A


Well I do agree with you and G that N52 had emotional and dark moments, especially when Jason separated from Joy thinking that's the best for him. For me it's really heart broken and heroic. But those good moments did not give me continued feelings throughout the series. The Rebirth is specially good at strengthening the bond between _ALL_ the three core characters, which gave me coherent expectations and hype in general. 

(well it's just my personal view about it...)

----------


## G-Potion

Raiden/Red Hood intro. Not bad at all. Starts from 1:45.

----------


## G-Potion

Black Lightning/Red Hood intro. Meh. Starts from 1:15.

----------


## Aioros22

Black Mantaaaaa! Okay, my fourth main has arrived. 

I like both the soul taint and the role model lines, myself. One referencing the Pit and All Caste and the other his former life. 

Even Raiden knows who lurks under the hood  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, Gotham City Garage #4 is out today and seemingly finishes Jason`s role for now.

----------


## G-Potion

So that turned out nicely. Another good Kara/Jason issue. These two should meet more.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Black Mantaaaaa! Okay, my fourth main has arrived. 
> 
> I like both the soul taint and the role model lines, myself. One referencing the Pit and All Caste and the other his former life. 
> 
> Even Raiden knows who lurks under the hood


I guess the lines with Black Lightning are fine objectively. I was just disappointed initially because no new lines for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Almost sure it won`t be the last time he shows up. Liking this series more than I ever though I`d be and this last issue is actually the most rushed so far. 

Really like the use of Clayface here.

----------


## G-Potion

Agree. Though I likely won't be following unless Jason comes in again, but I can say the four issues so far have been a blast.

The only thing I dislike is how Jason was drawn. Hopefully next time he appears fresher than this.

----------


## RedBird

> Agree. Though I likely won't be following unless Jason comes in again, but I can say the four issues so far have been a blast.
> 
> The only thing I dislike is how Jason was drawn. Hopefully next time he appears fresher than this.


The issue was kinda rushed but otherwise ok.

And really? You didnt like his look? Personally I dig it, and in all fairness I think finding time to shave in the desert can be a hassle. :P

----------


## Aioros22

You live in the wasteland, you gotta have the 5`clock shadow.

----------


## G-Potion

Eh I don't mind it. Just the way the shadow cast in some panels makes it look more like caveman beard. That and dumb question but what is the thing running down from his eye in 2 panels? Tear track?  :Confused:

----------


## Aioros22

Tebris of helmet visor. At least is what it looked to me at first glance.

----------


## Alycat

> So that turned out nicely. Another good Kara/Jason issue. These two should meet more.


I really liked their interactions in the annual where they were in a fighting tournament.

----------


## G-Potion

Baby Jay! 

http://sleepmian.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Is there a cuter Jason than this?

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I really liked their interactions in the annual where they were in a fighting tournament.


What annual was this?

----------


## G-Potion

> What annual was this?


Batman/Superman Annual by Greg Pak

----------


## Aioros22

Greg Pak`s Superman/Batman Annual #1 from the New52

----------


## G-Potion

Red Lantern Jason by vgmondo.deviantart.com
Red isn't my choice for Jason but he looks damn fine with it. What color you guys think suits him the most?

----------


## Aioros22

Suicide Squad, or Gotham Resistance: part troi is out this week and:

*spoilers:*
Dick starts to have visions the closest he gets to the Robin Who Laughs, aka "the son" which is revealed to be Damian of Dark Metal. There`s a page with some fast snips showing he decided to follow suit on whatever sadistic experiments/transformation that Batman went throught to become like him. The Damian Who Laughs is easily winning their brief fight and mentions to Dick that there is also a Nigthwing in his world who is always up for "a good time" as our Damian and Dick make the retreat. 

This means neither Dick or Damian are part of the "Crow" set, as expected. 
*end of spoilers*

Mistery solved, Watson.

----------


## G-Potion

Still, what is it with DC trying to hammer it in that only Damian is considered "the son" of Batman.

----------


## Assam

> Red isn't my choice for Jason but he looks damn fine with it. What color you guys think suits him the most?


Lantern Colors for Core BatFam (IMO): 

Bruce- Yellow 
Dick- Blue
Babs- Green
Jason- Green 
Cass- Star Sapphire (She'd be Indigo no questions asked if they functioned like the others and didn't just brainwash evil people)
Tim- Orange (Not as originally written but based on how he ended up developing Pre-FP) 
Steph- Blue
Damian- Star Sapphire/ Red (Depending on the writer)

----------


## Assam

> Still, what is it with DC trying to hammer it in that only Damian is considered "the son" of Batman.


They want me and the many other it REALLY pisses off to have another reason to not like Damian?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

For real though, it's awful, and it needs to stop.

----------


## Aioros22

Because that`s how they figure he stands out marketing wise, otherwise, he`s just the latest edition. 

That`s how their POV works.

----------


## RedBird

Gotta say after reading TEC this week, in regards to Jason, it was nice to read through Tims old origin once again without the bile and bitterness of having to also read through the victim blaming narrative that was used at the time. Jason is spoken of in a manner that at least felt respectful to the dead here. I don't know, I thought that was nice.

----------


## Korath

Which is surprising since most writers clearly establish that, at the very least, Damian and Dick sees each others as brothers (like the Gotham Resistance did openly at the end of the first part; by the way, this one is the third one Aioros ^^). I guess it's purely marketing, because it makes easier to sell Damian to non-comics readers.

----------


## RedBird

> Because that`s how they figure he stands out marketing wise, otherwise, he`s just the latest edition. 
> 
> That`s how their POV works.


Figures that modern DC would start realizing that people are fond of the family dynamics and of Robin(or batgirl!) being a son (daughter) to Batman only after a biological one is brought to the table. Its understandable as marketing but I'm not fond of the narrative implications that it creates. :/ like yikes

----------


## Aioros22

I wasn`t expecting anything less, really. Tynion may make no mistery who his personal favorite is but he`s part of that new generation of writers who don`t abuse characters based on previous editorial notes. You can tell by his RATHO run, as well Eternal issues that Jason is a favorite of his too. At the time, in the mind of some, a tad too much  :Big Grin:  not that I complained. 

Always nice to actually read it like that, I agree. The original ALPOD isn`t something I care much exactly because of that note. *Especially* because Marv Wolfman is there and he basically just _adheres_ to that editorial note when before he actually wrote Jason well. Another example of backstage sheeningans tainting a story. But then Alan Grant came in and it was so much better.

----------


## Aioros22

> Which is surprising since most writers clearly establish that, at the very least, Damian and Dick sees each others as brothers (like the Gotham Resistance did openly at the end of the first part; by the way, this one is the third one Aioros ^^). I guess *it's purely marketing, because it makes easier to sell Damian to non-comics readers*


No more no less. That`s the simple geist of it as harsh as it sounds. 

Sacre bleu, i`ll edit  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

At the cost of pissing off at the very least all adopted kids? Smh. And it's even worse when a big title like Batman also commits the same crime. Whenever it feels generous, then the other robins gets to be called "the boys". Really. How hard is it to just use "son" in plural.

As far as I know so far in Rebirth only Lobdell has outright let Jason state that Bruce is his father. I think Damian said somewhere in Nightwing that Dick was the first son or something (but also preceded by Dick stating Damian is "the son" first)? That are the only instances I can think of.

----------


## G-Potion

> Lantern Colors for Core BatFam (IMO): 
> 
> Bruce- Yellow 
> Dick- Blue
> Babs- Green
> Jason- Green 
> Cass- Star Sapphire (She'd be Indigo no questions asked if they functioned like the others and didn't just brainwash evil people)
> Tim- Orange (Not as originally written but based on how he ended up developing Pre-FP) 
> Steph- Blue
> Damian- Star Sapphire/ Red (Depending on the writer)


I like Jason as Green too! However, there are some reasonings for Star Sapphire Jason that make a lot of sense. I have read quite a few posts explaining this choice on Tumblr. There is also a monster fic featuring this Jason and it is _brilliant_. 

For anyone who's interested. With Violet Light by Evilpixie

----------


## Assam

> I like Jason as Green too! However, there are some reasonings for Star Sapphire Jason that make a lot of sense. I have read quite a few posts explaining this choice on Tumblr. There is also a monster fic featuring this Jason and it is _brilliant_. 
> 
> For anyone who's interested. With Violet Light by Evilpixie


While I think he fits Green better, I agree that Star Sapphire would also make sense, and would be my 2nd pick. (I honestly think the only color that fits Jason worse than Red is Blue)

----------


## Aioros22

And in the Annual, Dick claims both him and Jason are brothers of the same father but all Marketing cares is how you can promote something in unique boxes in a saturated market. The cold approach regarding Damian`s sale and pitch (again, in marketing terms, this is not about the character or the writting of the character or even the concept) is straighforwardly "Hey, Batman actually boned someone and had a kid with a crazy mother!

Of course he`s been doing that since the 40`s but Robin wasn`t marketed the same way in magazines and articles. Just look at the New52 when they were all supposed to be interns.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Still, what is it with DC trying to hammer it in that only Damian is considered "the son" of Batman.


Even in something as batshit as this, they need to obsess over it. It's tiresome.

----------


## G-Potion

> Gotta say after reading TEC this week, in regards to Jason, it was nice to read through Tims old origin once again without the bile and bitterness of having to also read through the victim blaming narrative that was used at the time. Jason is spoken of in a manner that at least felt respectful to the dead here. I don't know, I thought that was nice.


It's nice to hear that though I'm not quiet surprised. Regardless of how Tynion's RHATO was received, his Jason was rarely written with contempt or downplaying. I remember the issue of B&R Eternal that he wrote, Jason came off as the the wise one, giving sincere advice and nicely calling Dick out on the way he treats the girls.

----------


## Aioros22

> While I think he fits Green better, I agree that Star Sapphire would also make sense, and would be my 2nd pick. (I honestly think the only color that fits Jason worse than Red is Blue)


I have to admit, I laughed at Green not to make fun at but because one of my favorite fics of Jason - posted a page or two ago - have him surviving the explosion and doning a new mask called "Draco - the Green Bastard!"

Can I ask what makes green so suitable for you? I`m interested in that correlation in terms of simbology or emotions. Is it because his life had been poisonous?

----------


## G-Potion

> I have to admit, I laughed at Green not to make fun at but because one of my favorite fics of Jason - posted a page or two ago - have him surviving the explosion and doning a new mask called "Draco - the Green Bastard!"
> 
> Can I ask what makes green so suitable for you? I`m interested in that correlation in terms of simbology or emotions. Is it because his life had been poisonous?


Also interested in hearing your color pick for him. Admitedly I'm not at all well versed in the Lantern lore.

----------


## Assam

> Can I ask what makes green so suitable for you? I`m interested in that correlation in terms of simbology or emotions. Is it because his life had been poisonous?


If you go through the spectrum, Red is just the false casual perception of him, Blue is the thing he never could be, Orange and Yellow just don't fit, and his intentions are noble enough, and he's been working on bettering himself, so he wouldn't be Indigo. That leaves Green and Star Sapphire. And while there are terrific arguments for him being a Star Sapphire and I wouldn't tilt my head at all if he ever got drafted, I think that if you look at RobinJay, initial return Jay and Rebirth Jay (The only versions of the character I acknowledge) its his bravery and will that stand above the other traits here, at least for me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Still, what is it with DC trying to hammer it in that only Damian is considered "the son" of Batman.


I really, really hate how DC and the writers handled that. One of the reasons I eventually dropped Tomasi's _Batman and Robin_ was because I felt there was an undercurrent of "Damian is the only worthy son of Batman because he's the blood son" and I was like "Hey, Bruce does have THREE other sons, ya know." Just because they are not blood related doesn't make Dick, Jason and Tim any less his sons and I got tired of the implication that it did. I really hope once Rebirth is complete that the writers move away from that nonsense. They can market Damian as the "Son of Batman" all they like but they need to tone down on the whole_ son by blood_ is better then _sons by choice_ malarkey.

@ Assam: I agree the RED these days would fit the false perception of the character but I do think that UTRH Jason would have been a good candidate for RED based on how angry he was at the time.

----------


## G-Potion

> I really, really hate how DC and the writers handled that. One of the reasons I eventually dropped Tomasi's _Batman and Robin_ was because I felt there was an undercurrent of "Damian is the only worthy son of Batman because he's the blood son" and I was like "Hey, Bruce does have THREE other sons, ya know." Just because they are not blood related doesn't make Dick, Jason and Tim any less his sons and I got tired of the implication that it did. I really hope once Rebirth is complete that the writers move away from that nonsense. They can market Damian as the "Son of Batman" all they like but they need to tone down on the whole_ son by blood_ is better then _sons by choice_ malarkey.


I'm curious since you read Supersons, do you think it suffers the same problem? I have no idea as I haven't been reading it for a while.

----------


## Aioros22

> If you go through the spectrum, Red is just the false casual perception of him, Blue is the thing he never could be, Orange and Yellow just don't fit, and his intentions are noble enough, and he's been working on bettering himself, so he wouldn't be Indigo. That leaves Green and Star Sapphire. And while there are terrific arguments for him being a Star Sapphire and I wouldn't tilt my head at all if he ever got drafted, I think that if you look at RobinJay, initial return Jay and Rebirth Jay (The only versions of the character I acknowledge) its his bravery and will that stand above the other traits here, at least for me.


That makes real sense. I`m going as far as saying that Red would be what his life could be if he lost control of it and Green is what he is deep down. Ducra saw behind the casual perception and that`s why she decides to train him despite the danger that perception could bring. 

Green, I like it. What defines Jason the most if not his ability to face fear after all.

----------


## G-Potion

> I have to admit, I laughed at Green not to make fun at but because one of my favorite fics of Jason - posted a page or two ago - have him surviving the explosion and doning a new mask called "Draco - the Green Bastard!"


Regarding the fic, from what I've seen, it looks like a WIP? Don't want to be left hanging.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

Hmm. You know, ignoring the Indigo corps weirdness and just focusing on 'Compassion' itself, it's interesting how the Bats who have had the worst lives (Cass, Damian, Jason, and Steph; in that order) are the ones who most embody the 4 'positive' emotions on the spectrum.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm curious since you read Supersons, do you think it suffers the same problem? I have no idea as I haven't been reading it for a while.


_Super Sons_ is a different book tonally from _Batman and Robin_ and its also not heavily connected to the Bat-verse books so I think that makes a huge difference. So, no, I don't feel that _ Super Sons_ suffers the same problems at all.

----------


## Assam

Also, 500 pages. Neat.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Also, 500 pages. Neat.


AW...you beat me to it, Assam. Dang it. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> @ Assam: I agree the RED these days would fit the false perception of the character but I do think that UTRH Jason would have been a good candidate for RED based on how angry he was at the time.


True. But it could also be argued that UTRH Jason could also be a Star Sapphire candidate since his anger came from his love for Bruce and his perception of Bruce's love for him. In the end though, I do agree with Assam and Aioros that at his core, Green definitely is his color.

----------


## G-Potion

Arggg 500 so fast I was still on 499 as I wrote the last post. 

@RedBird and @Aioros: You can redeem yourselves from that horrible pic choice from page 400!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alycat

> At the cost of pissing off at the very least all adopted kids? Smh. And it's even worse when a big title like Batman also commits the same crime. Whenever it feels generous, then the other robins gets to be called "the boys". Really. How hard is it to just use "son" in plural.
> 
> As far as I know so far in Rebirth only Lobdell has outright let Jason state that Bruce is his father. I think Damian said somewhere in Nightwing that Dick was the first son or something (but also preceded by Dick stating Damian is "the son" first)? That are the only instances I can think of.


Grayson had Dick refer to Tim and Jason as brothers. I wanna say someone did in Batman and Robin Eternal too but I don't wanna torture myself.

----------


## G-Potion

> Grayson had Dick refer to Tim and Jason as brothers. I wanna say someone did in Batman and Robin Eternal too but I don't wanna torture myself.


I think the problem is not about whether the Robins see the others as brothers because they obviously do. But somehow DC doesn't connect it to all of them being Bruce's sons. Like, they are your brothers but only you are my son???  :Confused:

----------


## Fergus

Congratulations on 500

----------


## kiwiliko

In honor of page 500 I present to you all takoyaki Jason.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the artist again but the love the Japanese fandom has for him is very appreciated

----------


## Alycat

> I think the problem is not about whether the Robins see the others as brothers because they obviously do. But somehow DC doesn't connect it to all of them being Bruce's sons. Like, they are your brothers but only you are my son???


Well we all know it's marketing and editorial. I've seen Tom King state that the boys see Bruce as a father, but even he wrote that line only referring to his son Damian. Seeley's line where Dick said Damian was Bruce's son was based on Dicks own insecurities and not truth, but only books outside of the main Batoofice get away with letting Bruce be considered a dad to people other than Damian. In short, thanks higher ups for saving Damian's Robin position and forever boo on them for wanting to limit the idea of Batman as a dad.

----------


## G-Potion

> Congratulations on 500


Thanks! It's nice of you to come in just for this!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> In honor of page 500 I present to you all takoyaki Jason.
> Unfortunately I couldn't find the artist again but the love the Japanese fandom has for him is very appreciated


Haha cute. At least one good thing does come out of the mess that was Nightwing: Brothers in Blood.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aahz

> Is there a cuter Jason than this?

----------


## Aahz

> It's nice to hear that though I'm not quiet surprised. Regardless of how Tynion's RHATO was received, his Jason was rarely written with contempt or downplaying. I remember the issue of B&R Eternal that he wrote, Jason came off as the the wise one, giving sincere advice and nicely calling Dick out on the way he treats the girls.


Don't know B&R Eternal was really inconsistent, and I'm not really sure which issues were written by Tynion.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well we all know it's marketing and editorial. I've seen Tom King state that the boys see Bruce as a father, but even he wrote that line only referring to his son Damian. Seeley's line where Dick said Damian was Bruce's son was based on Dicks own insecurities and not truth, but only books outside of the main Batoofice get away with letting Bruce be considered a dad to people other than Damian. In short, thanks higher ups for saving Damian's Robin position and forever boo on them for wanting to limit the idea of Batman as a dad.


Yeah I get the intention from Seeley. Though looking at what's going on at DC, there has been exploring of insecurities from the non-blood sons but really nothing much done in term of alleviating that fear but rather on the contrary, even confirming it. Boo on DC indeed.

----------


## kiwiliko

> 


Dang it that's equal parts cute Jason and tearjerker Jason

----------


## G-Potion

> Don't know B&R Eternal was really inconsistent, and I'm not really sure which issues were written by Tynion.


So the talk between Jason and Dick happened in #6. I checked and Tynion wrote that one.

----------


## Alycat

Oh yeah, the issue where everyone's face melted

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Okay that counts as equally cute.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

Sorry G I missed page 500.
This better though?  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Sorry G I missed page 500.
> This better though?


Perfect! You're forgiven!  :Cool:

----------


## magpieM

> Sorry G I missed page 500.
> This better though?


This is so cute! Can't believe 400 was only two months ago  :EEK!:

----------


## Aioros22

I Am The Redeemed

びざじぇ


I know I know 

 :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

(If anyone knows who the artist is, please let me know)

----------


## G-Potion

> I Am The Redeemed
> 
> びざじぇ


OMG I'm dead. 
You're _Redeemed_!

----------


## TheCape

> Lantern Colors for Core BatFam (IMO):
> 
> Bruce- Yellow
> Dick- Blue
> Babs- Green
> Jason- Green
> Cass- Star Sapphire (She'd be Indigo no questions asked if they functioned like the others and didn't just brainwash evil people)
> Tim- Orange (Not as originally written but based on how he ended up developing Pre-FP)
> Steph- Blue
> Damian- Star Sapphire/ Red (Depending on the writer)


I know that people like to associate Dick with hope, but frankly i think that willpower make more sense for him, he's not really an optimist, at least for most of Pre-Flashpoint, is more like other heroes projected hope on him, because of how long he has been in the game and his unbrekable code, being more aproachable helped a bit too, i would put him on Indigo it wasn't for how weird those guys are. Jason pre-flashpoint and written by Winnick was a weird mixed beetween and love, but at this current point i think that he outgrew the former and is more into the latter. Tim in his early Robin days was definetly in spectre of hope and love (his love for his family, friends, Gotham City), latter on maybe greed make more sense for his characther. Otherwise, i agreed with your assesments.

----------


## TheCape

Also, congratulations for the 500 page. :Smile:

----------


## AJpyro

500 pages. How amazing. How bambooozling.

----------


## Jovos2099

so according to the solicitations for bombshells united  batwoman is returning to Spain and Talia al ghul will be involved so does that mean we could see the debut bombshells Jason as red hood what does everyone else think.

----------


## RedBird

> so according to the solicitations for bombshells united  batwoman is returning to Spain and Talia al ghul will be involved so does that mean we could see the debut bombshells Jason as red hood what does everyone else think.


Honestly if you hadn't told me of this solicitation I would have said no, and that Jasons death was clearly meant to be a permanent mark in Bombshell Kates life, but darn, now you're getting me excited. If this indeed is the plan, then I'm hoping for a somewhat happy reunion (at least by the end).

I could have brushed off the return to Spain as a time of mourning, but Talias involvement is quite _interesting._

----------


## G-Potion

If true then I'm surprised at the amount of crossovers/teamups these two are having at the moment.  :EEK!:

----------


## Aioros22

I am all for the Yay! If that`s the plan let them do it.

----------


## Assam

*(Warning: This is another one of those posts where I talk about something I've realized about why I feel a certain way that I just feel the need to write out. Nothing bad about Jason is said here though, don't worry. If you couldn't care less about these posts I sometimes make and/or you find my usual amounts of b**ching annoying, don't bother reading this.  )* 

So for awhile now, and this is something I've brought up before, I've been trying to figure something out about Red Hood and the Outlaws. Namely, why, despite the fact that it's one of the most well written Rebirth titles, made me turn around my opinion on Red Hood, and presented some of the best ever versions of Artemis and Bizarro...do I still not care. About the book, the team or anything? 

Well, I was talking with someone about how I didn't hold hijacking the Robins' 75th anniversary against Harper, and the reason why was, because of the Batgirl situation, I'd lost sympathy for the Robins, basically thinking to myself, "Well, at least they were deemed worthy of _existing_". Plus hey, at the time, I actively disliked 3 of the 4 boys and the 4th had been written horribly for years. 

And that's where it comes together. Rebirth made NuTim somewhat better and made me like Jason for the first time since he was running around in a green speedo, and eventually my hatred to for D&D turned into just not liking them (Save for the period of time where my meds made me LOVE Damian) 

But between my cold indifference toward the otherwise enjoyable and interesting RHatO book and the fact that I didn't even feel a _thing_ during the brief moments we thought Tim might have actually been dead in 'Tec, it seems pretty clear that my bitterness towards how erasure in the Nu52 hasn't changed in this regard. It's not like with Dick, Damian and Kate where my indifference can turn to dislike sometimes, and I'm definitely still a fan of Tim and Jason, but it's probably going to be awhile, if ever, before I can really _care_ again.

Basically, f**k the Nu52.

----------


## Jovos2099

I just want to know what a bombshells red hood will look like ive always loved all things dieselpunk.

----------


## Aioros22

Yes, please

http://jaykore.tumblr.com/
https://archiveofourown.org/works/12097329

----------


## G-Potion

http://lynxdre.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://andreavasquezart.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

http://tiger-quollsartblog.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> *(Warning: This is another one of those posts where I talk about something I've realized about why I feel a certain way that I just feel the need to write out. Nothing bad about Jason is said here though, don't worry. If you couldn't care less about these posts I sometimes make and/or you find my usual amounts of b**ching annoying, don't bother reading this.  )* 
> 
> So for awhile now, and this is something I've brought up before, I've been trying to figure something out about Red Hood and the Outlaws. Namely, why, despite the fact that it's one of the most well written Rebirth titles, made me turn around my opinion on Red Hood, and presented some of the best ever versions of Artemis and Bizarro...do I still not care. About the book, the team or anything? 
> 
> Well, I was talking with someone about how I didn't hold hijacking the Robins' 75th anniversary against Harper, and the reason why was, because of the Batgirl situation, I'd lost sympathy for the Robins, basically thinking to myself, "Well, at least they were deemed worthy of _existing_". Plus hey, at the time, I actively disliked 3 of the 4 boys and the 4th had been written horribly for years. 
> 
> And that's where it comes together. Rebirth made NuTim somewhat better and made me like Jason for the first time since he was running around in a green speedo, and eventually my hatred to for D&D turned into just not liking them (Save for the period of time where my meds made me LOVE Damian) 
> 
> But between my cold indifference toward the otherwise enjoyable and interesting RHatO book and the fact that I didn't even feel a _thing_ during the brief moments we thought Tim might have actually been dead in 'Tec, it seems pretty clear that my bitterness towards how erasure in the Nu52 hasn't changed in this regard. It's not like with Dick, Damian and Kate where my indifference can turn to dislike sometimes, and I'm definitely still a fan of Tim and Jason, but it's probably going to be awhile, if ever, before I can really _care_ again.
> ...


So correct me if I'm wrong but what I get from this is however good a title is written, you're at best indifferent about it because for you the attention the Robins have had since N52 came at the cost of the negligence of Batgirls? I don't see the connection between the two "franchises" so to speak. For me I am indifferent towards a character or book because I'm the "all or nothing" kind of person. I either invest wholeheartedly (Jason) or not at all (everyone else). Same goes for other media. That said, I guess most Jason fans can understand the frustration of seeing other characters thrive but yours are left in the dust.

----------


## Aioros22

As a fan of a character who was stepped on for a period of 20 years I can understand.

----------


## G-Potion

Recently I've seen around twitter talks about how Injustice 2 DLCs have been overall a disappointment, except for Red Hood (and Darkseid) who is both fun and tier-wise very good. Seeing as Jason gets his own article about his unique gameplay, I guess his hype is no exaggeration. How do you guys think Starfire, Subzero, Black Manta and Raiden measure up against RH?

----------


## Aioros22

http://archiveofourown.org/works/12055233 (NSFW check at yer own peril lads).

----------


## Aioros22

I have yet to try Black Manta but he`s mainly the one DCL after Hood I`m really interested in. As far as hype, well I wasn`t even aware Raiden had come out and I dislike MK characters being given the spot.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://archiveofourown.org/works/12055233 (NSFW check at yer own peril lads).


Honest question, are there a lot of pairing fics that you'd recommend? Asked because I'm curious.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> I have yet to try Black Manta but he`s mainly the one DCL after Hood I`m really interested in. As far as hype, well I wasn`t even aware Raiden had come out and I dislike MK characters being given the spot.


Black Manta has a lot of hype when he's out but after a while I start to see talks cropping up about how he's only cool but otherwise underwhelming viability-wise. I watched SonicFox's stream and the guy dimissed Starfire as well as Black Manta first day. Now quite a few other pros are saying the same thing: Starfire good but boring, Black Manta fun but not good enough.

Raiden was accidentally out on XBox so some folks were lucky enough to get him. You can Youtube him to see how it's like.

----------


## Alycat

Gameplaywise I actually feel Red Hood is the worst DLC character, probably because they wanted to get him out first. Black Manta is super fun. Raiden is still lame. Black Lightning shouldn't have been a skin. But yeah overall hype was highest for Red Hood, although I saw alot of excitement for Starfire and the upcoming Hellboy as well. I've taked about this a bit though. They couldve done much better with the overall roster. And the gear, which I am currently salty about as someone who got hit with the gear bug.




> So correct me if I'm wrong but what I get from this is however good a title is written, you're at best indifferent to it because for you the attention the Robins have had since N52 came at the cost of the negligence of Batgirls? I don't see the connection between the two "franchises" so to speak. For me I am indifferent towards a character or book because I'm the "all or nothing" kind of person. I either invest wholeheartedly (Jason) or not at all (everyone else). Same goes for other media. That said, I guess most Jason fans can understand the frustration of seeing other characters thrive but yours are left in the dust.


Agreed. Do the robins have more attentiona nd care put into them? Yes, because outside of Babs maybe, they are all way more popular than any Batgirl. Even that doesnt save them all the times ( Jason's treatment, Current Tim, Rumours of replacing Damian, Trying to kill Dick). The truth of the matter is, not all characters are equal. They just aren't.  Once that's accepted, then it allows you to enjoy alot more stuff. Example, I like current Huntress, but I know a solo book would'nt sell anything. Same with Jon Jones. Its just truth,but it doesn't make medeprive myself of other good books about charcters that I might nto have cared for before.

----------


## G-Potion

> Gameplaywise I actually feel Red Hood is the worst DLC character, probably because they wanted to get him out first. Black Manta is super fun. Raiden is still lame. Black Lightning shouldn't have been a skin. But yeah overall hype was highest for Red Hood, although I saw alot of excitement for Starfire and the upcoming Hellboy as well. I've taked about this a bit though. They couldve done much better with the overall roster. And the gear,, which I am current;y salty about as someone who got hit with the gear bug.


I actually feel that they did quite a complete work on Red Hood. I watch competitive players' stream often and they pretty much all say he's very very good _and fun_. From what I've been seeing, it's like people appreciate his playstyle more when they understand how to use him. Honestly RH wasn't very successful in ranked matches when he first came out because no one knew how to play him yet, but now he's like Top 5 or Top 3 tierwise.

----------


## Alycat

> I actually feel that they did quite a complete work on Red Hood. I watch competitive players' stream often and they pretty much all say he's very very good _and fun_. From what I've been seeing, it's like people appreciate his playstyle more when they understand how to use him. Honestly RH wasn't very successful in ranked matches when he first came out because no one knew how to play him yet, but now he's like Top 5 or Top 3 tierwise.


Yes he's quite fun ( Ad more imporatntly stylish) but I feel like there is sort of a power lacking behind him that the other DLC charaters have. Like you have to work harder with him than you do with the others. I don't actually run into many RH online and I think thats why. people who use him are those who use him well, if that makes any sense.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yes he's quite fun ( Ad more imporatntly stylish) but I feel like there is sort of a power lacking behind him that the other DLC charaters have. Like you have to work harder with him than you do with the others. I don't actually run into many RH online and I think thats why. people who use him are those who use him well, if that makes any sense.


I think I get what you mean. Even the most successful RH player said that he thrives on chip damage and knockdown game. If he gets more power than that he'd be broken. And it's true that it's hard to find good RH online to learn the MU, even for pros. But trap characters like RH and Captain Cold make it fun for me to watch though. 

Though, Black Manta doesn't do much damage either? They even hid the damage number in the Watchtower stream, the sneaky bastards. :P On the other hand, Starfire does too much damage but still I'm hearing talks about how "dumb" and "boring" she is.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Recently I've seen around twitter talks about how Injustice 2 DLCs have been overall a disappointment, except for Red Hood (and Darkseid) who is both fun and tier-wise very good. Seeing as Jason gets his own article about his unique gameplay, I guess his hype is no exaggeration. How do you guys think Starfire, Subzero, Black Manta and Raiden measure up against RH?


I only play on mobile, so the only one I've had a chance to try is Starfire, and I like her. Not sure when Red Hood is ever going to appear on mobile, but hopefully soon since there's Subzero out (I just don't have him).

----------


## G-Potion

> I only play on mobile, so the only one I've had a chance to try is Starfire, and I like her. Not sure when Red Hood is ever going to appear on mobile, but hopefully soon since there's Subzero out (I just don't have him).


I don't play the mobile game but yeah, what is it with the late release of RH? He even appeared in the first mobile game (in Arkham Knight gear even) ffs.  :Confused:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> But between my cold indifference toward the otherwise enjoyable and interesting RHatO book and the fact that I didn't even feel a _thing_ during the brief moments we thought Tim might have actually been dead in 'Tec, it seems pretty clear that my bitterness towards how erasure in the Nu52 hasn't changed in this regard. It's not like with Dick, Damian and Kate where my indifference can turn to dislike sometimes, and I'm definitely still a fan of Tim and Jason, but it's probably going to be awhile, if ever, before I can really _care_ again.
> 
> Basically, f**k the Nu52.


If you don't have interest in a book, then you don't have interest. No problem with that. There's characters I like that I don't seek out to read because I can't read every series, even if they are good stories. You can casually like a character.

But certainly fans of Jason know and understand being excluded from the "Batfamily." There's been more than one panel where it's been described as ~the whole family~, yet Jason isn't there (and at least twice Cast hasn't been there, either, which I know is your concern). You have some people calling Metal a "Batfamily" story when it only involves Damian and Dick and has NUMEROUS instances of adoption/family erasure and it's only a few issues so far. 

For you, I hope that what you heard about Cass being adopted again comes true. Maybe you can start enjoying things more if so. For me, I have to hold onto RHATO, which is the only place in Rebirth where it seems Bruce can be referred to as a father to Jason and Dick. I'm interested to see what happens with Tim once he returns, especially since he's in Detective Comics.

----------


## Aahz

> But certainly fans of Jason know and understand being excluded from the "Batfamily." There's been more than one panel where it's been described as ~the whole family~, yet Jason isn't there (and at least twice Cast hasn't been there, either, which I know is your concern). You have some people calling Metal a "Batfamily" story when it only involves Damian and Dick and has NUMEROUS instances of adoption/family erasure and it's only a few issues so far.


But that probably better than Jason again being treated like a second rate character.
But I found it also a little bit frustrating how much they push Dick and Damian opposed to everybody else.

----------


## G-Potion

Haha, this guy (https://twitter.com/FGC_Theo), one of the best IJ2 players and winner of the recent SoCal Regionals 2017. His tweets are a riot.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## okiedokiewo

> But that probably better than Jason again being treated like a second rate character


lol yeah. Always a Catch-22.

----------


## G-Potion

> If you don't have interest in a book, then you don't have interest. No problem with that. There's characters I like that I don't seek out to read because I can't read every series, even if they are good stories. You can casually like a character.
> 
> But certainly fans of Jason know and understand being excluded from the "Batfamily." There's been more than one panel where it's been described as ~the whole family~, yet Jason isn't there (and at least twice Cast hasn't been there, either, which I know is your concern). You have some people calling Metal a "Batfamily" story when it only involves Damian and Dick and has NUMEROUS instances of adoption/family erasure and it's only a few issues so far. 
> 
> For you, I hope that what you heard about Cass being adopted again comes true. Maybe you can start enjoying things more if so. For me, I have to hold onto RHATO, which is the only place in Rebirth where it seems Bruce can be referred to as a father to Jason and Dick. I'm interested to see what happens with Tim once he returns, especially since he's in Detective Comics.


Exactly. For sure I'm not happy about how exclusive Dick and Damian are when it comes to representing the Batfamily. _But_, even without it, I can say that I will still be indifferent about them, simply becaus I just love Jason so much more.

----------


## Alycat

Oh yes, that lovely feeling of having your Epic gear being gone with no indication of when they will fix it. Thanks, Netherrealm!



Middle children always get the short end of the stick. Even in real life. My sister and I have actually had discussions about it. According to her, being the middle one is always less exciting and more forgetful. Your not the oldest with responsibilities but your also not the baby.

----------


## G-Potion

Aaah more BizaJay art cropping up.
https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Okota_to_TV/

----------


## G-Potion

I want this pinnnnn!!
https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## magpieM

What I've heard from some gamers was that Red Hood in IJ2 DLC was not "offensive" enough. He is very intimidating character in front of his enemy. So there should have been more close-range combat/combo to deliver that feeling. When it's difficult to connect high-damaging combo, people had to play him like a zoner, which is less fun. But it also depends on the gamers. Some of them (like Sonic Fox) are very good at playing him in a professional battle.

I think it's OK. After all it's the first time for Red Hood to show in a 2D fighting game. He has too many abilities for developers to work on (martial art, weapon use...). It's hard to put everything together organically to form his personal style without vast feedback from gamers. Some ability need to be more emphasized. And more important is, his unique ability, such as the all-blades, has not been fully developed in his own RHATO canon yet. When his all-blades becomes a mature, high-damaging weapon, he'd have another unique combo element to contribute to his fighting style.

----------


## Aahz

> I think it's OK. After all it's the first time for Red Hood to show in a 2D fighting game. He has too many abilities for developers to work on (martial art, weapon use...). It's hard to put everything together organically to form his personal style without vast feedback from gamers. Some ability need to be more emphasized. And more important is, his unique ability, such as the all-blades, has not been fully developed in his own RHATO canon yet. When his all-blades becomes a mature, high-damaging weapon, he'd have another unique combo element to contribute to his fighting style.


His weapons seem mostly based on the movie, he hardly uses shurikens, knifes and explosives in the current comics. But it would imo be really great if he would use this variation also in the comics, were he uses imo the guns to much.

Btw. will the DLC charcters get also Legendary gear? And do I see that right that there is only one piece per character and it is always the accessory (so in Jasons case the guns)?

----------


## magpieM

As for Sub-Zero, it feels like he directly came from MK-X. He is a mature MK character whose fighting style has been polished and optimized for 25 years.

In fact, I'm wondering how could Jason strengthen his all-blades ability more quickly. Fighting with Amazon somehow evoked it. But I don't know if Artemis could really "train" him on that. (Maybe future battle with Batwoman can evoke it too?) I have a strange imagination that Sub-Zero might know how to train him...  :Stick Out Tongue: 

(Join the lin kuei!!)

----------


## G-Potion

> In fact, I'm wondering how could Jason strengthen his all-blades ability more quickly. Fighting with Amazon somehow evoked it. But I don't know if Artemis could really "train" him on that. (Maybe future battle with Batwoman can evoke it too?) I have a strange imagination that Sub-Zero might know how to train him... 
> 
> (Join the lin kuei!!)


I think Jason has no problem summoning the all-blades at all. Rather, he knows they power up from his soul so that means there's a limit on how long he can use them and maybe there are other drawbacks as well, that's why he uses sparingly. That and the all-blades can only be used against magical beings. The thing that jumped at me from his fight with Akila was more about how quickly the blades dissipated. 

Though I do like the idea of Sub-Zero taking Jason under his wing. It's cute that both Sub-Zero and Raiden seem to want to make him better, either by joining the Lin Kuei or by using the Jin Sei.

----------


## G-Potion

> What I've heard from some gamers was that Red Hood in IJ2 DLC was not "offensive" enough. He is very intimidating character in front of his enemy. So there should have been more close-range combat/combo to deliver that feeling. When it's difficult to connect high-damaging combo, people had to play him like a zoner, which is less fun. But it also depends on the gamers. Some of them (like Sonic Fox) are very good at playing him in a professional battle.


Regarding some players' expectation of how his playstyle should be, I still think "rushdown" is a very stereotypical thing to attribute to him, and it unfortunately reminds me of some bad showings in the comics where he lost because of it. NRS nailed it when they made him a "setup" type, which I think is way more fitting and highlights the tatical element in his fighting style. Talking of SonicFox, apparently he is not happy that people are crying for Red Hood nerfs just because of how sucessful he has been with Hood.

----------


## RedBird

Lil Gotham was the best and I will forever mourn its passing. 
Anyone remember this?





Cute

Also, later on when every one is dancing



Yes, you Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

This fanart.... it was supposed to make you feel good...  :Frown: 
But the panel with the ladies are mad awesome!

----------


## RedBird

> This fanart.... it was supposed to make you feel good... 
> But the panel with the ladies are mad awesome!


yoooooo I love this style, is there a link to the original anywhere?

Also is the lady with the Halo Sheila?

----------


## G-Potion

> Lil Gotham was the best and I will forever mourn its passing. 
> Anyone remember this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cute
> 
> ...


Yee I saw this on tumblr earlier. I love Jason in there. A shame there wasn't much of him, and the later issues weren't as good as enjoyable as the first ones for me.

----------


## G-Potion

> yoooooo I love this style, is there a link to the original anywhere?


It links to Weibo, so you need to have an account to browse there.

http://www.weibo.com/p/1005051697508...05#wbphoto_nav

----------


## G-Potion

By the way the one behind Jason, is it Catherine? She looks like Isabel but she has a halo soo...

----------


## RedBird

> By the way the one behind Jason, is it Catherine? She looks like Isabel but she has a halo soo...


Thats what I thought too but I think its Sheila. She's dead and had light short hair. It also explains why she is mostly in the background hidden. Notice both the 'mothers' in Jasons life are cupping his head.

----------


## G-Potion

> Thats what I thought too but I think its Sheila. She's dead and had light short hair. It also explains why she is mostly in the background hidden


Oh yeah the robin mask. I dismissed her at first because I thought all the ladies were the ones who have been good to Jason.

----------


## RedBird

> Oh yeah the robin mask. I dismissed her at first because I thought all the ladies were the ones who have been good to Jason.


I edited myself before sorry, but I think Talia may have the Robin mask in her hands, (arm around Jason) either way though, still 90% sure thats Sheila.

Also I think its the Ladies who have influenced him the most in his life.

----------


## G-Potion

Found this on https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo.
So the gist of this is that Jason finds out about IKEMEN Jason, with the attached caption "the guy who loves (and hates? I couldn't make out the kanji very well) Batman". He freaks out at the LOVE part and is in denial and tries to hide it from Batman. Bizzaro helps him escape in the end.

----------


## G-Potion

This should have happened instead.

https://rrulz97.deviantart.com/art/Bat-Wheel-215732355

----------


## G-Potion

By Marcio Takara. 
I can't remember if this was for a cover or not.

----------


## Assam

> By Marcio Takara. 
> I can't remember if this was for a cover or not.


Nah, I remember his posting pictures of that beauty while it was in progress on Twitter. That's a commission.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mokuri3

Jason: Hey Biz let's leave this place. Today is the day those idiots set up some weird traps.
Biz: ???

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mokuri3

Jason: Before you enter, I'll say this, be careful.
Roy: Huh? *Cake to the face*
Roy: Your family is ... different.
Jason: Not my family. In any case... congratulations?

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mokuri3

"Hello Bed!"
"Hello Pillow!"
"Hello... !!!"

----------


## G-Potion

Didn't notice there's a follow-up to it.

Bat: This... is different.
Jay: Wtf breaking into people's house as you please??   :Mad: 
Bat: Alfred asked me to bring it here...  :Frown:  Didn't think you would be home.... Sorry...
Jay: *Rageee*

Tim: So you accidentally tore off the only copy of that photo and then ran here... Uhhh... There, there don't be sad please?

----------


## Fergus

oh-mother-of-darkness

----------


## G-Potion

Aaaa Lord Dexter Soy!!

----------


## Aioros22

These last 3 pages of material makes me a happy Hoodler  :Wink:  those are funtastic ya`ll.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep I think I'll start delving into these Japanese/Chinese fan comics. If dialogs aren't handwritten then I have a shot at reading them. If you have any that needs translating throw it my way, I can give it a try.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Reading Jason centric fics for a while, I think it's pretty unique that the fandom consensus is that he is a talented man in many aspects of ordinary life. I've read stories where Jason cooks, builds house, have pets etc... and the authors usually go into impressive details of how he goes about doing them. Cool stuff.  :Cool: 

If someone ever writes a Jason's life as a crime boss fic I'll die happy.

----------


## G-Potion

https://rrulz97.deviantart.com/art/B...-off-217441649

"the batboys kill time by trying to outdo each other in an insult draw-off and see who wins Best A-hole of the year"
Guess who wins?

----------


## SpentShrimp

A lot of the Jason fan stories I've read are way too edgy.

----------


## TheCape

Well, althougth i think that most fanfics portrayed Jason being with domestic stuff, because they think that is cute see the "edgy" Robin doing that. I personally think that Todd in canon learned to do all that because, deep down he wants to have a normal life, but with all that have come to pass in his life, he feels than that isn't for him anymore.

----------


## Alycat

A lot of them are too poor Jason, look how awful everyone else is. Also a huge problem with Tim stories. Woobie stuff is the worst.

----------


## TheCape

2004 to 2008 weren't good years for Tim fans.

----------


## G-Potion

> A lot of them are too poor Jason, look how awful everyone else is. Also a huge problem with Tim stories. Woobie stuff is the worst.


Certainly there's a stereotype that each Robin is often subjected to in fanfics. Though I do feel that currently gen fics for Jason is going strong compared to the others. And of course the woobie stuff you said does exist, for everyone not just Jason, though the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned Jason doing domestic stuff generally treat all characters with respect.

----------


## G-Potion

> A lot of the Jason fan stories I've read are way too edgy.


I mean, he can't be too edge if he spends the majority of the fic playing with his dog or building his house yeah? Good stuff are there you just need to dig deep for them.  :Cool:

----------


## TheCape

There is alaways quality among the garbage, for every 9 bad stories, you can also find a good one or even fgeat.

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=10443112



They left out tentacle Jason thank god.

----------


## G-Potion

Handsome Jason.



http://micas.lofter.com/

----------


## magpieM

> https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo


 :Wink:  So now Bizarro is wearing Bat symbol, too

He really likes Jason's T-shirt

----------


## magpieM

> Though I do like the idea of Sub-Zero taking Jason under his wing. It's cute that both Sub-Zero and Raiden seem to want to make him better, either by joining the Lin Kuei or by using the Jin Sei.


Soy Dexter drew MK-X comic, too. It would be interesting to see how he would put Sub-Zero and Red Hood in one panel.

----------


## Alycat

> Certainly there's a stereotype that each Robin is often subjected to in fanfics. Though I do feel that currently gen fics for Jason is going strong compared to the others. And of course the woobie stuff you said does exist, for everyone not just Jason, though the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned Jason doing domestic stuff generally treat all characters with respect.


Gen wise  I agree he is doing better than the other two, especially if you can take Tim out of his search results. Gen for Dick is hard to find too.




> There is alaways quality among the garbage, for every 9 bad stories, you can also find a good one or even fgeat.


That's generous imo. It feels more like every 15 sometimes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is such a good thing that Soy is this big of a fan of the Outlaws



https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/914503417900486656

Honestly I think that if he didn't enjoyed working on the book so much, he would've been moved to other book by now.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/914503417900486656


This is cool. I'd love to see the Outlaws in some different get ups for special occasions once in a while.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is cool. I'd love to see the Outlaws in some different get ups for special occasions once in a while.


Yeah I'll be very disappointed if this particular getup is not used even once in the book.

----------


## Assam

Red swords? Come on Jay, your big sis tried the whole Sith Lord thing once and it didn't go well for her.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

I know their probably red for design purpose but it reminds me when he used the All Blades against a member of the Untitled. He cut himself with the blades to power them up and they turned red.

----------


## G-Potion

> Red swords? Come on Jay, your big sis tried the whole Sith Lord thing once and it didn't go well for her.


Just good ol' All-Blades dyed redder. He's extra like that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Just good ol' All-Blades dyed redder. He's extra like that.


He's too extra for this world. 

Also, I love how this person phrased this: 

https://twitter.com/fandom_writer/st...38053883781120

----------


## G-Potion

> He's too extra for this world. 
> 
> Also, I love how this person phrased this: 
> 
> https://twitter.com/fandom_writer/st...38053883781120


Well that would certainly be preferable than them fighting to "bond".

----------


## Assam

> Well that would certainly be preferable than them fighting to "bond".


I'm trying to remain optimistic for the 11th, but given it seems the 'Tec team's entire presence is being limited to the single issue, and said issue is going to be based around a fight, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't exchange one word. (I'd also bet that Kate is going to be the ONLY one he talks to  :Frown:  )

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm trying to remain optimistic for the 11th, but given it seems the 'Tec team's entire presence is being limited to the single issue, and said issue is going to be based around a fight, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't exchange one word. (I'd also bet that Kate is going to be the ONLY one he talks to  )


That seems to be the case. If the Bombshells soliciation which mentioned Talia is also another nod to Kate/Jason, it seems DC is trying to build something between these two.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I'm trying to remain optimistic for the 11th, but given it seems the 'Tec team's entire presence is being limited to the single issue, and said issue is going to be based around a fight, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't exchange one word. (I'd also bet that Kate is going to be the ONLY one he talks to  )


Yep. I don't expect them to exchange more than usual fighting-type words. Frustrating.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That seems to be the case. If the Bombshells soliciation which mentioned Talia is also another nod to Kate/Jason, it seems DC is trying to build something between these two.


_Why_

Jason works better on his own, stop trying to glue him at the bat family soles the entire time.

----------


## Caivu

> _Why_
> 
> Jason works better on his own, stop trying to glue him at the bat family soles the entire time.


Because there's a ton of compare-and-contrast sort of stuff that can be mined from them interacting in a more substantial way than they ever have before, which would be interesting?

----------


## G-Potion

> _Why_
> 
> Jason works better on his own, stop trying to glue him at the bat family soles the entire time.


I don't know why yet. But if more writers want to write Jason interacting with their character (is the writer of Batwoman also Bombshells's writer?) then it's a positive thing. It could be badly written of course, but the foundation of the two characters having a history is already laid, and can be mined in the future.

----------


## G-Potion

http://leloups2.lofter.com

----------


## Caivu

> (is the writer of Batwoman also Bombshells's writer?)


She is indeed!

----------


## G-Potion

> She is indeed!


Oh so that's why. Well a big portion of Jason fans do love how she wrote Kate and Renee mothering him so hopefully, the streak continues.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Well, althougth i think that most fanfics portrayed Jason being with domestic stuff, because they think that is cute see the "edgy" Robin doing that. I personally think that Todd in canon learned to do all that because, deep down he wants to have a normal life, but with all that have come to pass in his life, he feels than that isn't for him anymore.


Forgot which issue but there's definitely that one panel floating around with Jay's safehouse and some of his bonsai in the backgrounds. At first I used to suspect domestic Jason was just fanon the way you did but the guy actually seems to try for domesticity pretty often. RH/A was literally the two of them with a shared bank account as Jason fails to shower without an interruption from Roy and rhato vol.1 shows more than a few movie nights had on their spaceship island. Even with the current outlaws its Jason cooking beans for Biz while Arty reads magazines in the top bunk as they all somehow managed to fit their living space into a tiny camper. Maybe it's also not intentional since its across multiple runs but it adds a layer if you consider how much Jason really seems to enjoy teamups and found family for a guy so often labelled the lone black sheep.

----------


## G-Potion

> Forgot which issue but there's definitely that one panel floating around with Jay's safehouse and some of his bonsai in the backgrounds. At first I used to suspect domestic Jason was just fanon the way you did but the guy actually seems to try for domesticity pretty often. RH/A was literally the two of them with a shared bank account as Jason fails to shower without an interruption from Roy and rhato vol.1 shows more than a few movie nights had on their spaceship island. Even with the current outlaws its Jason cooking beans for Biz while Arty reads magazines in the top bunk as they all somehow managed to fit their living space into a tiny camper. Maybe it's also not intentional since its across multiple runs but it adds a layer if you consider how much Jason really seems to enjoy teamups and found family for a guy so often labelled the lone black sheep.


Wait I thought Biz was the one cooking? But anyway, back to his safe houses, he does have quite a taste. His safehouse with the weapon collection, red mattress and tea set for one, and the Hong Kong safehouse with wooden furniture and exotic plants everywhere for another.

----------


## G-Potion

> Found this on https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo.
> So the gist of this is that Jason finds out about IKEMEN Jason, with the attached caption "the guy who loves (and hates? I couldn't make out the kanji very well) Batman". He freaks out at the LOVE part and is in denial and tries to hide it from Batman. Bizzaro helps him escape in the end.


Ahh so this is where it came from.

----------


## G-Potion

From http://claimthatbooty.tumblr.com




> Then things get a bit weird, because the text says “the first man loved by Batman” (damn that ass)
> 
> 
> 
> And Jason’s says “the man who first loves Batman, then hates him” (which is pretty accurate tbh)
> 
> THAT’s how proper marketing’s done.

----------


## G-Potion

> Forgot which issue but there's definitely that one panel floating around with Jay's safehouse and some of his bonsai in the backgrounds. At first I used to suspect domestic Jason was just fanon the way you did but the guy actually seems to try for domesticity pretty often. RH/A was literally the two of them with a shared bank account as Jason fails to shower without an interruption from Roy and rhato vol.1 shows more than a few movie nights had on their spaceship island. Even with the current outlaws its Jason cooking beans for Biz while Arty reads magazines in the top bunk as they all somehow managed to fit their living space into a tiny camper. Maybe it's also not intentional since its across multiple runs but it adds a layer if you consider how much Jason really seems to enjoy teamups and found family for a guy so often labelled the lone black sheep.


Here RHATO#2, Hong Kong safehouse. Surprised it's rarely seen on tumblr. Also Jason hides guns in the bushes.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't know why yet. But if more writers want to write Jason interacting with their character (is the writer of Batwoman also Bombshells's writer?) then it's a positive thing. It could be badly written of course, but the foundation of the two characters having a history is already laid, and can be mined in the future.


Bombshell Jason was cute, but that doesn't really work as a basis for their in continuity relation ship imo.

----------


## Aahz

> Because there's a ton of compare-and-contrast sort of stuff that can be mined from them interacting in a more substantial way than they ever have before, which would be interesting?


But sofar Jason was mostly turned into a support character (or even fanboy) of the other Batfamily members, and that is imo not a good direction for him imo.

----------


## Aahz

> But anyway, back to his safe houses, he does have quite a taste. His safehouse with the weapon collection, red mattress and tea set for one, and the Hong Kong safehouse with wooden furniture and exotic plants everywhere for another.


He seems to have lowered his standards a lot since rebirth.

----------


## Aioros22

It only looked so due to the necessity of his newfound role within the criminal underworld. Right now the Outlaws have actually quite the headquarters.

----------


## Aioros22

> _Why_
> 
> Jason works better on his own, stop trying to glue him at the bat family soles the entire time.


As long there`s a fine line I have no issues with it. I don`t want him glued like they tried to do with Barbara (or with Tim in the _same series_) but I want him to have interasting/different narratives with different characters of the same clan. Kate is an interesting prospect if done rigt. Now sure, it is the same writer and "motherly features" isn`t what I`m looking for in that Future plot but let`s give a writer the chance.

----------


## RedBird

> As long there`s a fine line I have no issues with it. I don`t want him glued like they tried to do with Barbara (or with Tim in the _same series_) but I want him to have interasting/different narratives with different characters of the same clan. Kate is an interesting prospect if done rigt. Now sure, it is the same writer and "motherly features" isn`t what I`m looking for in that Future plot but let`s give a writer the chance.


Bombshells is a vastly different narrative, I doubt they will go for a 'mother' vibe here, pretty sure theres a partnership/mentor thing going on. 

Thing is, now I'm just wondering whose idea it was to put Jason in this narrative, Tynions or Bennetts? I thought it was Tynion at first but now that its been pointed out that the other writer is the same one for bombshells both seem plausible. Gotta say, Bennets interpretation of a young Jason was a breath of fresh air even with the predictable 'sacrificial lamb' end to his tale.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m all for partnership/mentor. One of the things I love about Jason`s expanded backstories since Winnick used him is that number of mentors he`s had (or considered to be in his mind - let`s not forgt he considered Kory a mentor in his life as well, right outta RATHO #1). His relationship with the same, whether they end up bad or not packs more gravita out of anyone save a Batman/itwasyouallthistimeShadow or Cass and Cain. At the very least Bennett set something that is true to the character. At his core, his convictions of justice? They`re pure. His upbringing is just his upbringing. That`s starting on the right foot. 

Right now it does seem to be more Bennett input than Tynion, not that Tynion doesn`t care about Jay, he obviously does, he had Shiva look like an amateur to him but Kate is certainly not responding to Jason here in the same manner she did in Eternal in the sense that there is unspoken familiarity and respect between the two.

----------


## G-Potion

> Bombshell Jason was cute, but that doesn't really work as a basis for their in continuity relation ship imo.


I worded my post badly. I don't particularly want the mother/son vibe in current canon. But the more the characters interact, the more material there will be in the future to work on. For now, they can explore all the angles these two can have. And what Bennett did with Bombshells pleased many Jason fans so that's the streak that I hope she continues.

----------


## G-Potion

> He seems to have lowered his standards a lot since rebirth.


It can be like Aioros said,  or it can reflect the fact that he is not in a good place mentally to care about such things now. The bomb shelter he had at the start of Rebirth served as a more practical hideout, it's colder and shutdown, appropriate of the state of his mind following his breakup with Roy. His current hideout is Gunn's place and there's a warmer and familial vibe to it.

----------


## G-Potion

Ahaha Jason slept with his helmet on.

http://jiangshanyehan.lofter.com/post/1ccb408a_dd21bc8

(_Very_ rough translation also I can't read what Jason says because handwriting) 
Roy: Hey Dickwing, Jason went to sleep and got his head stuck in the bucket. We really are not sure what to do...

----------


## kiwiliko

> Ahaha Jason slept with his helmet on.
> 
> http://jiangshanyehan.lofter.com/post/1ccb408a_dd21bc8
> 
> (_Very_ rough translation also I can't read what Jason says because handwriting) 
> Roy: Hey Dickwing, Jason went to sleep and get his head stuck in the bucket. We really are not sure what to do...


Looks like Jason's saying "Roy you fucker, don't you dare use the hammer."

I love me some good chinese swears even if I'm ashamed to say it took waaay to long for me to realize yellow meant nsfw in slang.

----------


## G-Potion

Aah sweet thanks kiwi!! There's also this fancomic that looks interesting and I want to know what the characters say but it's like 14 pages and I just don't have the energy to figure it out right now. You want to have a look? 

http://hwen118.wixsite.com/17works/ci

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> From http://claimthatbooty.tumblr.com


Oh so you can put the helmet on Jason? Now is a must buy for me.




> Here RHATO#2, Hong Kong safehouse. Surprised it's rarely seen on tumblr. Also Jason hides guns in the bushes.


Probably because Suzie Su is pretty much hated by the tumblr crowd.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh so you can put the helmet on Jason? Now is a must buy for me.


Yes you can. I'm curious, the helmet makes it a must-buy for you?  :Confused:

----------


## G-Potion

> Probably because Suzie Su is pretty much hated by the tumblr crowd.


I guess it's true in a way. RHATO was very vocally hated on tumblr but the pages you see posted there were just the from first issues, mostly about Kory. And people continued to shit on it without reading the other 40+ books or so.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes you can. I'm curious, the helmet makes it a must-buy for you?


Not a fan of the skunk stripe, but having the helmet on takes care of that. 

Although it has always bug me the way Jason's collar magically appears with the helmet.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Aah sweet thanks kiwi!! There's also this fancomic that looks interesting and I want to know what the characters say but it's like 14 pages and I just don't have the energy to figure it out right now. You want to have a look? 
> 
> http://hwen118.wixsite.com/17works/ci


Yeah sure, nobody quote me on anything though, I never actually wrote with traditional before.

Nightwing visits Red hood over patrol to leave him a reminder not to forget their event tomorrow (Bruce's birthday). He tells Hood he's proud of him for not using lethal force and Hood's justifying this because there was a child involved with the bad guys this time. 

Hood goes back to his safehouse to find Tim broke in and is chilling on the sofa. He just deals with an internal flipout for a few minutes as Tim looks on and makes the very accurate connection between Jason and a cranky cat. Tim leaves him his invitation to the Wayne manor for Bruce's birthday tomorrow.

Day of Bruce's birthday at the manor, Dick disguises his hug as a chance to tell Jason how the kid he saved has found their way back to their mom. Ever the gossip Dick also told Damian about Jason's nonlethal incident and Damian spends a good deal of time teasing Jason for his softheartedness. The brothers stay with Alfred to bake Bruce a cake for his party. Right after Jason tries to make his excuses and leave but Bruce asks him by the door to stay and Dick ambushes by dragging in a movie night and they get him to stay for a sleepover. 

Cute cute comic, here's some fav panels

"Timbo, can I have my legs back now"


"Todd, I hear it only took a few tears from the brat to stop you? Who knew you had such a squishy heart. Perhaps it only take bringing along a crying doll to stop the Red Hood."


frozen reference is adorable.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> Abnett's take on Roy is actually pretty in line with Lobdell's so much that Titan's Hunt works perfectly as the follow up to RH/A in fact. Percy's take on the other hand has been insufferable for me. Although I admit I'm biased, RHATO is the first and only time I've cared for Roy as character.


Super late response is late, but as for Green Arrow, as much I love that book (and I really do), I wasn't a fan of how Roy was made to dump on Ollie and Ollie had to just _take_ it, as if Roy was some perfect little angel. RHatO Vol #1 being ignored was one thing (and frustrating enough, in my opinion, as his issue dealing with Ollie was done to be more even-handed/slanted towards Roy in the blame there, including implicitly blaming Roy for not taking the step needed to better his and Ollie's relationship in the present), but I do agree that Roy was made rather insufferable there, especially in his "re-introduction" arc.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I hope what Antone said as he left RHATO is true. That the plan for the future is great for RHATO.


What did he say?

----------


## Assam

Abnett wrote Roy like Lobdell did in Titans Hunt, and that was a MAJOR problem with it. Thankfully, in Titans itself, love triangle BS aside, Roy's been written pretty well. 

Overall though, not counting Convergence, Percy has done by far the best work with Roy since McDuffie. Much like how I described Abnett's take on him when Titans was just getting started (only to be proved wrong), I think Percy is writing an adult Roy about as well as one can without Lian in his life. His voice is right, he's acting in character, I really liked how he's interacted with Ollie and Emi, and he's even opened the door for Lian to come back.

----------


## Alycat

> Abnett wrote Roy like Lobdell did in Titans Hunt, and that was a MAJOR problem with it. Thankfully, in Titans itself, love triangle BS aside, Roy's been written pretty well. 
> 
> Overall though, not counting Convergence, Percy has done by far the best work with Roy since McDuffie. Much like how I described Abnett's take on him when Titans was just getting started (only to be proved wrong), I think Percy is writing an adult Roy about as well as one can without Lian in his life. His voice is right, he's acting in character, I really liked how he's interacted with Ollie and Emi, and he's even opened the door for Lian to come back.


Agreed. I like Percy's Roy and hope that he continues to be a presence in the book. He's not overly whiny nore does he act like a giant manchild.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah sure, nobody quote me on anything though, I never actually wrote with traditional before.


Hey thanks so much kiwi  :Embarrassment: !! The website is dedicated to Jason so there should be more gems to find there as well. Look around pleaseee!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Might I ask about your Chinese learning process? And if it allows you to read Japanese as well?

----------


## G-Potion

> What did he say?


He said exactly what I said, future is great for RHATO, the plan is great moving forward etc etc. And some other things but still in the same vein.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> He said exactly what I said, future is great for RHATO, the plan is great moving forward etc etc. And some other things but still in the same vein.


Nice, though it's pretty vague.




> Agreed. I like Percy's Roy and hope that he continues to be a presence in the book. He's not overly whiny nore does he act like a giant manchild.


His ragging on Ollie came off as whiny after a fashion to me though, even if it was played highbrow and "adult". I didn't particularly care for it.

----------


## The Whovian

> He said exactly what I said, future is great for RHATO, the plan is great moving forward etc etc. And some other things but still in the same vein.


That's awesome! I love RHATO. It's my second favorite DC book right now, just behind 'Tec.

----------


## G-Potion

> That's awesome! I love RHATO. It's my second favorite DC book right now, just behind 'Tec.


That's his goodbye speech so...  :Stick Out Tongue:  I have faith in the team. But with a new editor, things are gonna changed regardless. For the better hopefully!

----------


## The Whovian

> That's his goodbye speech so...  I have faith in the team. But with a new editor, things are gonna changed regardless. For the better hopefully!


Hopefully. The only thing I wish they would keep is Bizarro being smart. But I know they're going to let him revert back to being dumb. I just think it would have been much more interesting to keep him smart. He could have been the "Professor Hulk" of the RHATO team.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't know how it will play out, but Lobdell said this in his interview :

"For everyone who thought Bizarro Am Smart was going to be a one-off, strap yourself in."

It might not play straightforward as everyone expected.

----------


## The Whovian

> I don't know how it will play out, but Lobdell said this in his interview :
> 
> "For everyone who thought Bizarro Am Smart was going to be a one-off, strap yourself in."
> 
> It might not play straightforward as everyone expected.


I hope that's true. I would love to see a different take on him than the usual "Me am happy" dumb speech. I could live with it, but I think it would be a more interesting take on him for a change.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Hopefully. The only thing I wish they would keep is Bizarro being smart. But I know they're going to let him revert back to being dumb. I just think it would have been much more interesting to keep him smart. He could have been the "Professor Hulk" of the RHATO team.


I was under the assumption he was never dumb in the first place. When Black Mask had that mental link going on he talks like Bizarro's perceptions and view of this world were just way beyond what he could handle as a human so I chalked a lot of Bizarro's behaviour to being unable to fully express his thoughts with language and just in general being like a month old at best. 

Will say that no matter how Lobdell chooses to play out Bizarro's storyline, I am glad he kept Bizarro's heart. Evil genius is a much rehashed plotline but Bizzaro is the genius who so far has done nothing for himself and everything for the outlaws and it just slaps me in the face with feels.

----------


## The Whovian

> I was under the assumption he was never dumb in the first place. When Black Mask had that mental link going on he talks like Bizarro's perceptions and view of this world were just way beyond what he could handle as a human so I chalked a lot of Bizarro's behaviour to being unable to fully express his thoughts with language and just in general being like a month old at best. 
> 
> Will say that no matter how Lobdell chooses to play out Bizarro's storyline, I am glad he kept Bizarro's heart. Evil genius is a much rehashed plotline but Bizzaro is the genius who so far has done nothing for himself and everything for the outlaws and it just slaps me in the face with feels.


Agreed. These three make a great team!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I mean, he can't be too edge if he spends the majority of the fic playing with his dog or building his house yeah? Good stuff are there you just need to dig deep for them.


Do I follow the white rabbit to find it?

----------


## SpentShrimp

That's how you make a timeless book that stands the test of time.

----------


## The Whovian

> That's how you make a timeless book that stands the test of time.


Quite true, my friend. Quite true

----------


## The Whovian

Awesome stuff!

----------


## kiwiliko

> Hey thanks so much kiwi !! The website is dedicated to Jason so there should be more gems to find there as well. Look around pleaseee! 
> 
> Might I ask about your Chinese learning process? And if it allows you to read Japanese as well?


Ohhh actually I grew up with simplified so much of reading traditional is just me comparing radicals. I don't think it lets you do Japanese(haha I wish) but I hear it does make learning it an easier jump than going right from English to Japanese. 

The website has some really pretty artworks, I'm always amazed at how many small sites there are that compile for a character.

----------


## Assam

> Ohhh actually I grew up with simplified so much of reading traditional is just me comparing radicals.


That's pretty cool!  :Smile:  I studied Chinese in Middle School but very little of it stuck. The only language I know fluently besides English is Hebrew.

----------


## Caivu

Final issue #15 cover:

IMG_20171002_220339.jpg

----------


## Assam

Jason clearly doesn't actually read 'Tec or else he'd know that of course they wouldn't be "detectiveing".  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Also, I love it whenever a modern comic has dialogue on the cover. Just nostalgic.

----------


## The Whovian

I really hope this is a great team crossover

----------


## Assam

> I really hope this is a great team crossover


My expectations are about as low as for the Manslaughter arc in BoP at this point. They'd be higher if the next two issues weren't about the **** ******** Suicide Squad.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ohhh actually I grew up with simplified so much of reading traditional is just me comparing radicals. I don't think it lets you do Japanese(haha I wish) but I hear it does make learning it an easier jump than going right from English to Japanese. 
> 
> The website has some really pretty artworks, I'm always amazed at how many small sites there are that compile for a character.


That's so cool! I learned Japanese first and it did help with the jump though I'm at a loss with simplified. And I can't speak Chinese at all haha, kept mixing up the reading between the two languages so I just gave up. I wish I could read Chinese text faster.... those Jason fics are too tempting.

About the website, yeah it's so great of the Japanese/Chinese fandom to have something like this. You go there and you get exactly what you want.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason clearly doesn't actually read 'Tec or else he'd know that of course they wouldn't be "detectiveing". 
> 
> Also, I love it whenever a modern comic has dialogue on the cover. Just nostalgic.


They are clearly in the wrong book is what he's trying to say.   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The Whovian

> My expectations are about as low as for the Manslaughter arc in BoP at this point. They'd be higher if the next two issues weren't about the **** ******** Suicide Squad.


Right?! The SS is the last team I want them having a two issue team up with.

----------


## G-Potion

> Do I follow the white rabbit to find it?


No need you're in the right place already. I believe folks here have great taste, if the recs so far are anything to go by. You just need to describe how you want it. Also the slider between edgy/angsty and whatnot varies for each of us so there's that too. So what are you looking for? Funny Jason fic? Short fic or long fic? Tearjerker but not Jason against the whole batfam fic?

----------


## G-Potion

From http://jllchuan.tumblr.com/. Happy Moon Festival!




> 「！？(how…)」

----------


## G-Potion

From https://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com/. Her art never fails to make me happy.

----------


## RedBird

> Right?! The SS is the last team I want them having a two issue team up with.


Same.

Although, thanks to childish nostalgia, I do have a _sort of_ soft spot for Harley, (despite DC really testing my love with her awful overuse, I've only found her enjoyable in like, two things over the past 6 years)
If Lobdell does give me some good Bizarro moments in this arc and possibly some sweet dynamic between Harley and Jason, I may be more forgiving for the SS appearance.

----------


## Alycat

> Same.
> 
> Although, thanks to childish nostalgia, I do have a _sort of_ soft spot for Harley, (despite DC really testing my love with her awful overuse, I've only found her enjoyable in like, two things over the past 6 years)
> If Lobdell does give me some good Bizarro moments in this arc and possibly some sweet dynamic between Harley and Jason, I may be more forgiving for the SS appearance.


Harley doing anything that isn't just lolrandom would be nice. That said, the worst Harley for me  has actually been the Injustice version over any annoyances with comics.

----------


## magpieM

I think it depends on how Lobdell handles the story. He added the role of "Dr. Quinzel" in the potential interaction between Jason and Harley. So let's wait and see how this clue goes on. 

And I expected a decent fight between Red Hood and Deadshot. Lobdell generally repeated aimless gun shooting in Jason's fight. Deadshot seems to rely on guns a lot. I wonder if Lobdell would emphasize Jason's other fighting skills _this_ time, or simply make both of them "pew pew pew" all the time... (both look bad)

----------


## RedBird

> Harley doing anything that isn't just lolrandom would be nice. That said, the worst Harley for me  has actually been the Injustice version over any annoyances with comics.


Comic injustice or video game injustice? Admittedly I actually liked comic injustice Harley for year 1 and 2. Felt like she was regaining a bit of depth for a while, though of course that tapered off as well and became 'kooky' as the injustice comics went on.

----------


## Alycat

> Comic injustice or video game injustice? Admittedly I actually liked comic injustice Harley for year 1 and 2. Felt like she was regaining a bit of depth for a while, though of course that tapered off as well and became 'kooky' as the injustice comics went on.


Both. I liked her fine the first year or two as well. Then there constant downplaying of her role in the event and as Joker sidekick while making people who wanted her head look bad was too much for me.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Raiden and Black Lightingin dialogues with all the DLC cast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnZa5M15jpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bcx7dzbBQM

----------


## G-Potion

Like the Raiden ones with the Jin Sei/Lazarus parallel and the other one where he points out that Jason hides behind sarcasm.

----------


## G-Potion

Guys look at this, the Bizarro Who Laughs! (from https://twitter.com/Mokuri3)



Rough translation: 
<Asked by Bizarro to help him dress as Bat-zaro>
Jay: Doesn't look so good. Hey, hey, the belt is upside down? It should be like this.
Dick: ... Jay? Who is that....
Jay: Aa? Just a friend who needs a bit of help.
Biz: Me Am Hate Red Hood! Being together with Hood no fun! Hood very bad person!
Dick: You can't do this Jay!! However much you love Bruce, this guy isn't Bruce you know... Send him back now!
Jay: Ha? Ehh noo he just talks backwards...
Biz: Me want to go home!
Jay: Stop talking!!!

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mokuri3

"You are a good guy, Jay!" *Bombard with hugs*
....
"You broke him, Bruce"

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mokuri3

Yeaah you go Jasons!

----------


## magpieM

> Guys look at this, the Bizarro Who Laughs! (from https://twitter.com/Mokuri3)
> 
> Rough translation: 
> <Asked by Bizarro to help him dress as Bat-zaro>
> Jay: Doesn't look so good. Hey, hey, the belt is upside down? It should be like this.
> Dick: ... Jay? Who is that....
> Jay: Aa? Just a friend who needs a bit of help.
> Biz: Me Am Hate Red Hood! Being together with Hood no fun! Hood very bad person!
> Dick: You can't do this Jay!! However much you love Bruce, this guy isn't Bruce you know... Send him back now!
> ...


I never thought about the combination of a laughing Bizarro + Bat suit. Even the Bat symbol seems to be up side down.

This is both creepy and hilarious!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm pretty sure that is just a reference to Loeb's Batzarro

----------


## magpieM

> I'm pretty sure that is just a reference to Loeb's Batzarro


Oh that I didn't know. (Just did some search) 

But it still works in both ways, considering Bizarro is in Outlaws now. Anyway thank you for the reference!

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm pretty sure that is just a reference to Loeb's Batzarro


Hey thanks for pointing it out. Because of how he was drawn, I immediately made the connection to the Batman Who Laughs.  :EEK!:

----------


## Assam

Kaylabee really is going for once a day throughout this month,  :EEK!: 

jason.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> Kaylabee really is going for once a day throughout this month, 
> 
> jason.jpg


That is adorable!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

http://austintoya.tumblr.com/ draws one of the most handsome Jason.

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat family by Afterlife

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Bat family by Afterlife


Batman and Damien have bad posture. Must run in the family lol.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason will make an appearance in Batman and the Sygnal, with the rest of the main cast. 

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/batman-...ham-by-day?amp

----------


## okiedokiewo

Per this comment and this tweet, Red Hood will be in the Batman anime film titled "Batman Ninja."

He was not in the trailer, though.

----------


## G-Potion

Hope he gets to do something substantial in either of these. But with all the family there, guess not. Ninja Hood design will be dope to see though. Can't they just use Dexter Soy's design for this?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Hope he gets to do something substantial in either of these. But with all the family there, guess not. Ninja Hood design will be dope to see though. Can't they just use Dexter Soy's design for this?


Yesss pleasepleaseplease.
Soy's design only came out recently even though he admits its been sitting in his computer for nearly a year before he posted so as unlikely as it is that his design came out enough to influence production, I'm still going to scream if it looks anything like Soy's or if it has that oni mask that the Japanese fandom loves to see him in. 

Has anyone here also seen the Batman in Shanghai trailer before? I might try to post it here later but stylistically, Batman Ninja feels similar and I'd love to see other cultural designs for the entire batfamily. Batman in shanghai had some gorgeous animation and movement, serious pity CN never took it further.

----------


## RedBird

> Per this comment and this tweet, Red Hood will be in the Batman anime film titled "Batman Ninja."
> 
> He was not in the trailer, though.


I wanna be hopeful that he gets a nice role, but like G said, its probably unlikely, still, nice to see him in another animated film, even if it is another AU.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Yesss pleasepleaseplease.
> Soy's design only came out recently even though he admits its been sitting in his computer for nearly a year before he posted so as unlikely as it is that his design came out enough to influence production, I'm still going to scream if it looks anything like Soy's or if it has that oni mask that the Japanese fandom loves to see him in. 
> 
> Has anyone here also seen the Batman in Shanghai trailer before? I might try to post it here later but stylistically, Batman Ninja feels similar and I'd love to see other cultural designs for the entire batfamily. Batman in shanghai had some gorgeous animation and movement, serious pity CN never took it further.


Now that you mentioned it, yeah I remember now, but only a bit of what Catwoman looked like there. Post away! 
And yep, would love to see the characters with other cultural designs. That's why I love Japense/Chinese fanarts so much. Seeing Jason in traditional clothes just do things to me.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm sure some of you guys are already following this blog but the newest entry is such a good read I have to recommend it. 


Drawing Parallels: Arsenal and Bizarro

Thoughts?

----------


## Aioros22

Have to check news regarding Batman Ninja since I had no idea they were doing that project but it`s not that hard to imagine Jason`s role as the Ronin of the cast.

----------


## RedBird

Haven't found any article mentioning Red Hood in Batman Ninja and considering he wasn't in the trailer either awaiting the trailer for online release is pointless in his case. I think I will refrain from this till I get a more credible confirmation.

----------


## magpieM

> I'm sure some of you guys are already following this blog but the newest entry is such a good read I have to recommend it. 
> 
> 
> Drawing Parallels: Arsenal and Bizarro
> 
> Thoughts?


Interesting comparisons. If Jason and Artemis were not on mission at the moment, Ma Gunn would probably go to Jason directly and tell him about the letters. It was Ma Gunn who hid those letters on purpose years ago. For me it looks like Bizarro simply didn't want to "disturb the dirt". He just delayed the exposure of those letters.

If Bizarro was really that "calculating", he'd open and read those letters, then burn them to keep secret save forever.


EDIT: Woo... wait a second, I just went through the other review link in the #15 thread. It seems that
*spoilers:*
 Bizarro already knows who the guy is? If it's really Jason's father, then this previewer is right: Bizarro is indeed hiding the letters from Jason intentionally. If Bizarro is confident that he could prevent Jason from seeing this guy, then I think he should burn the letters.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

> Haven't found any article mentioning Red Hood in Batman Ninja and considering he wasn't in the trailer either awaiting the trailer for online release is pointless in his case. I think I will refrain from this till I get a more credible confirmation.


Just trying to get a feel on the project, I`m not expecting anything particulat about Jason ATM since he wasn`t in the first (?) trailer but the twitter comment meaning anything, wel`ll eventually get info about his role.

----------


## okiedokiewo

The tweet is from someone who was at the panel who was live tweeting it, so I believe that's where his inclusion came from.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> EDIT: Woo wait a second, I just went through the other review link in the #15 thread. It seems that
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Bizarro already knows who the guy is? If it's really Jason's father, then this previewer is right: Bizarro is indeed hiding the letters from Jason intentionally. If Bizarro is confident that he could prevent Jason from seeing this guy, then he should burn the letters.
> *end of spoilers*


That would put an interesting twist on things but I'm thinking *spoilers:*
 that Bizarro is not doing so for nefarious reasons but out of a desire to protect Jason from yet another part of his past that has hurt him.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> The tweet is from someone who was at the panel who was live tweeting it, so I believe that's where his inclusion came from.


I know, but so far he is the only source, and theres no context as to how he came to that conclusion you know? Did the creators actually say Red Hood was in the movie? They could have said something else and he may have jumped to conclusions. Not saying its not true, I just wanna know what the deal is with Red Hoods inclusion from dc themselves, don't wanna get my hopes up, even for a cameo appearance.

----------


## G-Potion

> Interesting comparisons. If Jason and Artemis were not on mission at the moment, Ma Gunn would probably go to Jason directly and tell him about the letters. It was Ma Gunn who hid those letters on purpose years ago. For me it looks like Bizarro simply didn't want to "disturb the dirt". He just delayed the exposure of those letters.
> 
> If Bizarro was really that "calculating", he'd open and read those letters, then burn them to keep secret save forever.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Woo... wait a second, I just went through the other review link in the #15 thread. It seems that
> *spoilers:*
>  Bizarro already knows who the guy is? If it's really Jason's father, then this previewer is right: Bizarro is indeed hiding the letters from Jason intentionally. If Bizarro is confident that he could prevent Jason from seeing this guy, then I think he should burn the letters.
> *end of spoilers*


Oh wow. And here I thought maybe be there was a bit of reading too much into it. If this is an intentional parallel to how Willis' death was hidden from Jason, wow, I can't imagine friction between Biz and Jason if this blows up.

----------


## magpieM

> That would put an interesting twist on things but I'm thinking *spoilers:*
>  that Bizarro is not doing so for nefarious reasons but out of a desire to protect Jason from yet another part of his past that has hurt him.
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah that's my first reaction. And like what Dark said in the #15 thread, maybe the whole thing was just the (pre)viewer's speculations.

(Oh I've been tortured by "who is the suite guy" and "what the letters say" for months... Really need to chill a little) I thought the final reveal of those questions would happen when all those batfam & ss crossovers are done.

----------


## G-Potion

> That would put an interesting twist on things but I'm thinking *spoilers:*
>  that Bizarro is not doing so for nefarious reasons but out of a desire to protect Jason from yet another part of his past that has hurt him.
> *end of spoilers*


I think the intention was always good when Roy and Bruce hid something from Jason just like the blog writer said. But from experience, Jason might feel hurt when he thinks that he can't trust them to be honest with him. That's an angle that I dread to see because angst but nonetheless am intrigued about.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh wow. And here I thought maybe be there was a bit of reading too much into it. If this is an intentional parallel to how Willis' death was hidden from Jason, wow, I can't imagine friction between Biz and Jason if this blows up.


Oh, I fully expect this to blow up in both Biz and Ma Gunn's faces although at least Ma Gunn wants to do right by Jason now by giving him the letters. I think Biz is trying to protect Jason from his past out of some misguided belief that Jason is best left unaware and that never turns out well as we all know.




> I think the intention was always good when Roy and Bruce hid something from Jason just like the blog writer said. But from experience, Jason might feel hurt when he thinks that he can't trust them to be honest with him. That's an angle that I dread to see because angst but nonetheless am intrigued about.


True. I do have to wonder though what's going to happen when all this comes to a head though since Jason has trust issues among his many problems.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'm sure some of you guys are already following this blog but the newest entry is such a good read I have to recommend it. 
> 
> 
> Drawing Parallels: Arsenal and Bizarro
> 
> Thoughts?


I didn't initially think that scene with Biz had much weight in it, more of an afterthought but the blog brings up a good point. 

I couldn't resist so having read the review for #15...
*spoilers:*
 If Bizarro knows the identity of the cloaked man and still keeps it a secret intentionally then oh man is this gonna hurt.

It insanely doesn't help that more than trust issues, Jason also seems to have issues regarding his own agency. With his history there's a lot of gray areas with how much of Jason's own decisions truly belong to himself. Saving mom was a manipulation of Joker's that led to his death, Talia arguably needed him to feel a certain way about Bruce after she picked him up and there's always going to be a reminder that there's two presences occupying his mind, one being the Lazarus pit. Maybe even on a meta level, his death never gets to be about how he felt, more about how it affected Bruce.

Jason clearly also felt it was his responsibility to be a guiding figure too, anything Bizarro does that can hurt him even unintentionally he's just going to double back onto himself for not being better for Biz. 

Is it bad I'd actually like it if they go this direction? Bizarro's temporary genius could've easily been used solely as a tool to set up some tech for the new guest books but we're instead seeing what Bizarro's character is like when he's holding the most power within the outlaw's dynamic. His heart is never going into the wrong place but the things he does just scream of inexperience navigating through life and I'm reminded that his entire world currently is likely just his two reds.(Not a lot of social interaction to be had as war criminals) He got protective, he just wants the best for his reds and that's the most organic development possible that can result in him overstepping on one of Jason's boundaries.  

I've got no doubt if this does happen and creates tension, the outlaws will still find a way to come out of it better and more whole than before but wow is this going to be a rocky ride.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

@Kiwi: Ah, inexperiened Bizarro, exactly! Yes to everything you say! Regardless of how much hurt they (and we tbh) are going to be in for, it is something that needs to happen. And if they manage to do it first before the Batfamily has any real heart-to-heart talk with Jason, well...  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I didn't initially think that scene with Biz had much weight in it, more of an afterthought but the blog brings up a good point. 
> 
> I couldn't resist so having read the review for #15...
> *spoilers:*
>  If Bizarro knows the identity of the cloaked man and still keeps it a secret intentionally then oh man is this gonna hurt.
> 
> It insanely doesn't help that more than trust issues, Jason also seems to have issues regarding his own agency. With his history there's a lot of gray areas with how much of Jason's own decisions truly belong to himself. Saving mom was a manipulation of Joker's that led to his death, Talia arguably needed him to feel a certain way about Bruce after she picked him up and there's always going to be a reminder that there's two presences occupying his mind, one being the Lazarus pit. Maybe even on a meta level, his death never gets to be about how he felt, more about how it affected Bruce.
> 
> Jason clearly also felt it was his responsibility to be a guiding figure too, anything Bizarro does that can hurt him even unintentionally he's just going to double back onto himself for not being better for Biz. 
> ...


I agree with everything you say here. Very nicely put. Man is this going to be a bumpy ride.

----------


## Rise

> Per this comment and this tweet, Red Hood will be in the Batman anime film titled "Batman Ninja."
> 
> He was not in the trailer, though.


Nice! I was already interested in the movie and Red Hood being in it made more excited. 

I'm glad that Jason started to show up more in the media lately (in good media no less and not the awful DCAU movies).

----------


## G-Potion

> Nice! I was already interested in the movie and Red Hood being in it made more excited. 
> 
> I'm glad that Jason started to show up more in the media lately (in good media no less and not the awful DCAU movies).


Hey!!! Rise, welcome back! Stick around this time.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

Batboys pixels from http://avathion.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Robin Jay is my favorite of the bunch.

----------


## Rise

> Hey!!! Rise, welcome back! Stick around this time.


Hey, G! And thank you  :Big Grin: . Hopefully, I will.

----------


## Aahz

> Red Lantern Jason by vgmondo.deviantart.com
> Red isn't my choice for Jason but he looks damn fine with it. What color you guys think suits him the most?


I'm not great Lantern Expert, but I think pre flashpoint red would have been quite fitting, during UTRH Yellow could also fit and Green is imo an option that works for most heroic characters. The current version is harder to pin down imo.

But it seems anyway that there isn't just one answer when it comes to Lantern Cores, a good part of the Green Lantern characters have afaik been in more than one core and  in the animated series there was for example Razer who started as Red Lantern and it was iirc at least implied in the final episode that he switched to blue.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Soy getting showered with love by Chinese Red Hood fans

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___/st...70290309947392
https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/916821422143442944

----------


## RedBird

> Soy getting showered with love by Chinese Red Hood fans
> 
> https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___/st...70290309947392
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/916821422143442944


Its what he deserves.  :Big Grin: 

Also I love the inclusion of the framed photo.

(I think they wanna ensure he stays on the book) XD

----------


## G-Potion

> But it seems anyway that there isn't just one answer when it comes to Lantern Cores, a good part of the Green Lantern characters have afaik been in more than one core and  in the animated series there was for example Razer who started as Red Lantern and it was iirc at least implied in the final episode that he switched to blue.


Ahhh you've got a point there.

----------


## G-Potion

> Soy getting showered with love by Chinese Red Hood fans
> 
> https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___/st...70290309947392
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/916821422143442944


He specifically called them Jason's fan.  :Embarrassment:  Hope his experience with the book and the fans continue to be a great one.

----------


## G-Potion

Injustice 2 Red Hood model was shared by Min Kian, one of his artists.

https://www.**********.com/artwork/8dqaQ

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/832/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-texture-preview-03.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/836/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-texture-preview-02.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/835/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-texture-preview-01.jpg[/img]

----------


## G-Potion

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/834/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-highres-preview-03.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/833/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-highres-preview-02.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/551/831/large/sim-min-kian-redhood-highres-preview-01.jpg[/img]

----------


## G-Potion

Gear pieces by Yin Yee Lim

[Link]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/554/175/large/yin-yee-lim-redhood-highres-preview-01.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/554/170/large/yin-yee-lim-redhood-highres-preview-02.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/554/171/large/yin-yee-lim-redhood-highres-preview-03.jpg[/img]

----------


## G-Potion

Gear pieces by Sara Khoo Woan-Yng

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/553/450/large/sara-khoo-woan-yng-redhood-highres-preview-01.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/553/452/large/sara-khoo-woan-yng-redhood-highres-preview-02.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/007/553/453/large/sara-khoo-woan-yng-redhood-highres-preview-03.jpg[/img]

----------


## Aioros22

Soy with the actual drawing of Jason and Batman`s picture taken in a frame  :Cool: 

So much love.

----------


## G-Potion

How does this compare to Injustice 2's moveset?  :Cool:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Soy getting showered with love by Chinese Red Hood fans
> 
> https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___/st...70290309947392
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/916821422143442944


Love the pun here.
Sombody gave Soy some soy milk

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So, I guess RHATO was completely absent from DC's panels _again_, eh?

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t know, was it? At this point is just RATHO tradition. 

@t Not bad, the sprites could be a tad smaller but that backlift kick is sure nice  :Big Grin:

----------


## magpieM

> Soy getting showered with love by Chinese Red Hood fans
> 
> https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___/st...70290309947392
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/916821422143442944


Soy milk + moon cakes, look like a good match  :Wink:   must try it

EDIT: btw, is this "Mrs Wilson" cosplaying "Miss Todd" in the other photo? (Only judged by the red thumbnails and a left wristband...)

----------


## Savatewolf

DC: Who is this Red Hood you speak of?

DC: The second Robin? Sorry, but there's only been 3 robins Dick Grayson, *looks at smudged hand* Tam Jake, and Damian Wayne. I've never heard of this Red Hood person.

----------


## TheCape

Tam Jake?.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh, and RHATO didn't made it to the top 100 for September.

----------


## Savatewolf

> Oh, and RHATO didn't made it to the top 100 for September.


Yeah but we have like 3 different events going on these past months, Metal and all of its one shots, Generations, and Legacy and its always been on the edge so im not that worried

----------


## TheCape

I wouldn't worried for Red Hood and the Outlaws until sales get below 20k.

----------


## magpieM

I see #14 in September as the "calm before the storm". Things are getting headed up by those crossovers, which will also occupy the precious time left for genius Bizarro for his own "attempt". I have a feeling that several clues would meet together by the end of all these conflicts. I don't worry at all, especially knowing Soy's back.

----------


## G-Potion

Custom 1/4 statue Red Hood  by Stivens trujillo Sanchez

More pics in the link

[img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/006/333/195/large/stivens-trujillo-sanchez-redhood1.jpg[/img]

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/006/333/190/large/stivens-trujillo-sanchez-redhood-72.jpg[/img]

----------


## RedBird

WOAH WOAH WOAH Is that real? Will it be actually Sold or is this just the artist having fun?

----------


## G-Potion

It's a private commission sadly.  :Frown:

----------


## RedBird

> It's a private commission sadly.


Noooooooooooo, it looked so cool. My wallet was already preparing for the cash evacuation it twas bout to receive.

----------


## SpentShrimp

These major events really screw up the flow of really good comics trying to gain or continue gaining traction. Especially all the Batman crap. I really enjoyed Snyder's run, but good lord. LET IT GO!

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh, and RHATO didn't made it to the top 100 for September.


1- It was more a filler issue. 

2- With all these events going on? You can sit and wait back.

----------


## RedBird

Red Hot

----------


## G-Potion

> Red Hot


Sweating.

Why doesn't he use one of the improved helmets Bizarro made? This one keeps breaking smh.   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

HOLY HELL This is pretty!
Kevin Wada

----------


## Aahz

> 1- It was more a filler issue. 
> 
> 2- With all these events going on? You can sit and wait back.


Just roughly 700 issues below the last issue, so no big trouble.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Just roughly 700 issues below the last issue, so no big trouble.


Where do you guys usually get these stats? I've seen this ranking thing a few times before in these threads but I never quite figured out how to interpret sales stuff.
Is top 100 usually a decent place for Rhato to be?

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Custom 1/4 statue Red Hood  by Stivens trujillo Sanchez
> 
> More pics in the link
> 
> [img]https://cdnb.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/006/333/195/large/stivens-trujillo-sanchez-redhood1.jpg[/img]
> 
> [img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/006/333/190/large/stivens-trujillo-sanchez-redhood-72.jpg[/img]


Wow.  That's amazing

----------


## Aioros22

> Where do you guys usually get these stats? I've seen this ranking thing a few times before in these threads but I never quite figured out how to interpret sales stuff.
> Is top 100 usually a decent place for Rhato to be?


Yes well it`s a decent spot for any title to be. It`s just a quick surface lens on which titles out of thousands are more consistant each month. But whether a title is in trouble or not requires a deeper read than being there but it certainly never hurts on principle.

Right now the market is being flooded with events (Legacy, Dark metal, Doomsday Clock, yadayada) so some titles in a given month will drop a bit below, especially if they don`t have any tie-in to any of the big events right now, which is the case of RATHO.

----------


## TheCape

I think that RATHO has find his readership already and has his own little corner for Lodbell to play, so is likely that we have at least a year more of  adventures for Jason and his compadres

----------


## Aioros22

Behind the scenes, it`s a two edge sword but Loedbell is safe within DC editorial. He`s not in a spot where he needs to make a name or have a #1 for the TPTB to give him more work, he`s not a novice in the industry. Why is it a double edge sword? Because a creator in that spot can easily become too comfortable but with the current quality of the title, I think we`ve been safe from that sort of thing. 

On the side of the characters, Red Hood is a popular property with a great following and the other two, especially this Bizarro have a growing fanbase just by going with the fanart available. 

On the side of the title, it found its readership, the issue is mostly in how to expand it in terms of business scale.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Where do you guys usually get these stats? I've seen this ranking thing a few times before in these threads but I never quite figured out how to interpret sales stuff.
> Is top 100 usually a decent place for Rhato to be?


http://www.comichron.com/

Yeah, Top 100 is ideally where you want to be.




> I think that RATHO has find his readership already and has his own little corner for Lodbell to play, so is likely that we have at least a year more of  adventures for Jason and his compadres


That has been the case since the N52

----------


## G-Potion

> Where do you guys usually get these stats? I've seen this ranking thing a few times before in these threads but I never quite figured out how to interpret sales stuff.
> Is top 100 usually a decent place for Rhato to be?


Still its not the complete picture though. These numbers usually indicate sell-in and not sell-through. Plus it doesn't count digital sales.

----------


## G-Potion

I think Lobdell's movie Happy Death Day is out soon. Any of you guys planning to watch?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think Lobdell's movie Happy Death Day is out soon. Any of you guys planning to watch?


I do, seems like a fun flick.

----------


## G-Potion

> I do, seems like a fun flick.


Great! If they have it here where I live I'll go watch as well just to support him.

----------


## RedBird

> On the side of the title, it found its readership, the issue is mostly in how to expand it in terms of business scale.


Well its not an issue of HOW as much as WHEN, since any sort of expansion or effort to increase rhatos readership within comics is non existent. :/
The _how_ could be extrapolated after an attempt is made.

----------


## G-Potion

More gifts for Soy. Love the cute stickers and something that looks like a batshark?   :Embarrassment: 

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/917919803108573185

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/917942656675676160

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/917942656675676160


Haha oh the cinematic parallels
Though I love the addition of the skull  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> I think Lobdell's movie Happy Death Day is out soon. Any of you guys planning to watch?


Yep Yep Yep really looking forward to it.

----------


## G-Potion

Wall of text comparison between Arkham!Jason and DCU!Jason by http://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/. Can't quote here because long text is long but so very well worth the read.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

----------


## RedBird

> Wall of text comparison between Arkham!Jason and DCU!Jason by http://lananiscorner.tumblr.com/. Can't quote here because long text is long but so very well worth the read.
> 
> Part 1
> 
> Part 2
> 
> Part 3


Yes yes yes, I just saw that yesterday, was just thinking of posting it.

Kind of a depressing read but pretty well informed  :Smile: )

----------


## G-Potion

> Yes yes yes, I just saw that yesterday, was just thinking of posting it.
> 
> Kind of a depressing read but pretty well informed )


When it is listed out like this... wow... his life is _a mess_. I think the author made a mistake about the All-Caste came after his reunion with the batfam. It should be before? (I actually also like the idea of Jason going to the All-Caste _after_ though).

----------


## RedBird

> When it is listed out like this... wow... his life is _a mess_. I think the author made a mistake about the All-Caste came after his reunion with the batfam. It should be before? (I actually also like the idea of Jason going to the All-Caste _after_ though).


The biggest mess ever. Created mainly by the unfortunate circumstances that have befallen the character through both the narrative and worst of all the editorial of dc. Seriously I cannot imagine how much better Jasons character and entire arc especially as an adult would have been if he had more care and thoughtfulness taken in mind by the writers with how he was presented and handled. The effort there has been to brush aside the character has been absurd, though kinda hilarious to see him still flourishing with a growing fanbase despite the odds.

----------


## TheCape

Jason probably have it hardest than any other Robin.

----------


## G-Potion

> The biggest mess ever. Created mainly by the unfortunate circumstances that have befallen the character through both the narrative and worst of all the editorial of dc. Seriously I cannot imagine how much better Jasons character and entire arc especially as an adult would have been if he had more care and thoughtfulness taken in mind by the writers with how he was presented and handled. The effort there has been to brush aside the character has been absurd, though kinda hilarious to see him still flourishing with a growing fanbase despite the odds.


Yes even now when his popularity with the fans is through the roof, it doesn't look like DC feels the same. And of course they would rather go vague with his Robin past than retelling his story as it really was. Can't make themselves nor Bruce look bad after all. I'm honestly surprised that Lobdell was allowed to do the RH/A finale like he did.

----------


## G-Potion

By the way, for anyone caring about Injustice Mobile. From the stream, they said currently there's no plan to work on Red Hood yet. But they also said he is a favourite of them and would like to bring him into the game. So hopefully, when he's out it is worth it because skipping the first DLC for no reasons is just stupid.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason probably have it hardest than any other Robin.


Preach!

(also shout out to my girl Steph who DC tried to pull a Jason on as well, she can take second place)

Though I honestly think that all this rough treatment has made the most hardcore fans who do know the history want to support him even more. Underdog syndrome.

----------


## RedBird

Has anyone read the latest TEC? Another mention of Jason and I will have below both how he is mentioned and the context behind it do, so yeaahhh TEC spoilers ahead.

*spoilers:*
Basically TimBats who is the same guy from the Batwoman future issue explains how the lives of the robins played out. That Dick would take up the cowl but then drop it (which is honestly how I see Dick as Batman as well. I never felt he was very happy as Batman and its not a role I can see him thrive in as Dick Grayson) So he makes a life and a family and gives up the cowl. After that Damian takes on the cowl and I think goes all Batman 666 popped collar on Gotham and nearly destroys it. 

AND Finally in Jasons case he never got a chance to assume the cowl, he ends up fighting off a hundred mystic assassins, however he loses an eye and a leg (which explains his limp and cane in Batwoman). In the dialogue TimBats explains how Jason lost his will to live and in the panel it seems he has ended up on the streets, caught up in drugs. 

This future really does seem grim. 

*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> Has anyone read the latest TEC? Another mention of Jason and I will have below both how he is mentioned and the context behind it do, so yeaahhh TEC spoilers ahead.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Basically TimBats who is the same guy from the Batwoman future issue explains how the lives of the robins played out. That Dick would take up the cowl but then drop it (which is honestly how I see Dick as Batman as well. I never felt he was very happy as Batman and its not a role I can see him thrive in as Dick Grayson) So he makes a life and a family and gives up the cowl. After that Damian takes on the cowl and I think goes all Batman 666 popped collar on Gotham and nearly destroys it. 
> 
> AND Finally in Jasons case he never got a chance to assume the cowl, he ends up fighting off a hundred mystic assassins, however he loses an eye and a leg (which explains his limp and cane in Batwoman). In the dialogue TimBats explains how Jason lost his will to live and in the panel it seems he has ended up on the streets, caught up in drugs. 
> 
> This future really does seem grim. 
> 
> *end of spoilers*


This sounds like some insane shit happens, for Jason to be *spoilers:*
caught up in drugs
*end of spoilers*... Is this like, before or after his alliance with Batwoman?

Also, what happened to Damian after he *spoilers:*
went 666
*end of spoilers*?

----------


## RedBird

> This sounds like some insane shit happens, for Jason to be *spoilers:*
> caught up in drugs
> *end of spoilers*... Is this like, before or after his alliance with Batwoman?
> 
> Also, what happened to Damian after he *spoilers:*
> went 666
> *end of spoilers*?


*spoilers:*
I'm pretty sure its before his alliance with Batwoman, since TimBats mentions trying his best to track him down only to find him in _that_ sad state (all while Damian is Batman and burning Gotham to the ground). Its tragic to see Jay on the streets smokin hard drugs, but yeah, considering he lost an eye and a leg I'm sure he saw himself useless as a vigilante with a stump.

Also TimBats pretty strongly implies that he kills Damian, in a 'had to do what was necessary' kinda way.
*end of spoilers*

Mind you all this info is given on only one page but its a lot of stuff that has gone down regardless.

----------


## G-Potion

Okayyyy damn. Haven't been keeping track, could you update me on how canon is this future? Or is this another timeline thing?

----------


## RedBird

> Okayyyy damn. Haven't been keeping track, could you update me on how canon is this future? Or is this another timeline thing?


WELL...

*spoilers:*
TimBats cuts Tims arm and then reveals a scar he has on the exact same spot proving that they are one and the same, sooooo, yeah this is apparently the ACTUAL future. Though I wouldnt put too much investment in it, its clearly something to be changed and diverted from.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> WELL...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> TimBats cuts Tims arm and then reveals a scar he has on the exact same spot proving that they are one and the same, sooooo, yeah this is apparently the ACTUAL future. Though I wouldnt put too much investment in it, its clearly something to be changed and diverted from.
> *end of spoilers*


Damnit Tynion why do you have to write such a convoluted mess with so many Tims in it.

----------


## reni344

There are several versions of the future in play right now I doubt this is the future. We have Tomasi's glimpse of the future in Superman, we have that future crossing over soon in Teen Titans, the Batman Beyond future and the one that is happening in Justice Leauge. I think the Superman future is probably the most likely to happen.

----------


## dietrich

Batman Beyond is the canon DC future so all this is just writers playing  also the ages and the events in BB contradict this

----------


## reni344

But even Batman Beyond is weird to be canon when you think all the things that have to happen to make that future possible. Barbara has to get together with Dick Grayson, break up with him get together with Bruce; Dick finds out about it causing him to leave Gotham forever. Bruce being alone without any of the sidekicks is what that future hinges on. All the stuff with Barbra and Bruce and Dick is still canon even in the Rebirth. Jason I think was never even resurrected in the Batman Beyond future. I don't know what happened to Tim. Damian was added to the future retroactively. There are still aspects of that future that don't add up so it would be odd to make it canon.

----------


## RedBird

Exactly, they are only the future till the next time the 'future' is told. For now, just enjoy the storylines.

----------


## dietrich

> But even Batman Beyond is weird to be canon when you think all the things that have to happen to make that future possible. Barbara has to get together with Dick Grayson, break up with him get together with Bruce; Dick finds out about it causing him to leave Gotham forever. Bruce being alone without any of the sidekicks is what that future hinges on. All the stuff with Barbra and Bruce and Dick is still canon even in the Rebirth. Jason I think was never even resurrected in the Batman Beyond future. I don't know what happened to Tim. Damian was added to the future retroactively. There are still aspects of that future that don't add up so it would be odd to make it canon.


It doesn't matter my point is it's the only one DC as stamped as canon future We know that the now and Beyond will likely never match up so we take that with a pinch of salt but  nonetheless DC says it's their future. 
Just as Damian was added retroactively lots of things can changed retroactively and they already are You have things like Duke getting added. The same thing they did with Damian could be done with Jason.
Jurgens is already making big chances to the beyond world.

----------


## fanfan13

> Has anyone read the latest TEC? Another mention of Jason and I will have below both how he is mentioned and the context behind it do, so yeaahhh TEC spoilers ahead.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Basically TimBats who is the same guy from the Batwoman future issue explains how the lives of the robins played out. That Dick would take up the cowl but then drop it (which is honestly how I see Dick as Batman as well. I never felt he was very happy as Batman and its not a role I can see him thrive in as Dick Grayson) So he makes a life and a family and gives up the cowl. After that Damian takes on the cowl and I think goes all Batman 666 popped collar on Gotham and nearly destroys it. 
> 
> AND Finally in Jasons case he never got a chance to assume the cowl, he ends up fighting off a hundred mystic assassins, however he loses an eye and a leg (which explains his limp and cane in Batwoman). In the dialogue TimBats explains how Jason lost his will to live and in the panel it seems he has ended up on the streets, caught up in drugs. 
> 
> This future really does seem grim. 
> 
> *end of spoilers*





> *spoilers:*
> I'm pretty sure its before his alliance with Batwoman, since TimBats mentions trying his best to track him down only to find him in _that_ sad state (all while Damian is Batman and burning Gotham to the ground). Its tragic to see Jay on the streets smokin hard drugs, but yeah, considering he lost an eye and a leg I'm sure he saw himself useless as a vigilante with a stump.
> 
> Also TimBats pretty strongly implies that he kills Damian, in a 'had to do what was necessary' kinda way.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Mind you all this info is given on only one page but its a lot of stuff that has gone down regardless.





> WELL...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> TimBats cuts Tims arm and then reveals a scar he has on the exact same spot proving that they are one and the same, sooooo, yeah this is apparently the ACTUAL future. Though I wouldnt put too much investment in it, its clearly something to be changed and diverted from.
> *end of spoilers*


I don't read Tec so thank you for the spoiler.

I really dislike this version of future for both Jason and Damian. 
*spoilers:*
No one cares for Jason after the incident? Help him went through it? From your description it's implied that TimBats did nothing when he found Jason in that state.
And it's kinda ironic that Tim ended up killing Damian when all this time it's Damian who trolls like to mention "always trying to kill Tim".
*end of spoilers*

----------


## okiedokiewo

> By the way, for anyone caring about Injustice Mobile. From the stream, they said currently there's no plan to work on Red Hood yet. But they also said he is a favourite of them and would like to bring him into the game. So hopefully, when he's out it is worth it because skipping the first DLC for no reasons is just stupid.


I play mobile, and this is disappointing. I was wondering why Raiden was out before him.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> *spoilers:*
> I'm pretty sure its before his alliance with Batwoman, since TimBats mentions trying his best to track him down only to find him in _that_ sad state (all while Damian is Batman and burning Gotham to the ground). Its tragic to see Jay on the streets smokin hard drugs, but yeah, considering he lost an eye and a leg I'm sure he saw himself useless as a vigilante with a stump.
> 
> Also TimBats pretty strongly implies that he kills Damian, in a 'had to do what was necessary' kinda way.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Mind you all this info is given on only one page but its a lot of stuff that has gone down regardless.


*spoilers:*
Yeah...I probably won't be reading this. But at least it's before his alliance with Batwoman, so there's some hope of improvement for him. I guess.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> I don't read Tec so thank you for the spoiler.


No problem  :Smile: 




> I really dislike this version of future for both Jason and Damian. 
> *spoilers:*
> No one cares for Jason after the incident? Help him went through it? From your description it's implied that TimBats did nothing when he found Jason in that state.
> And it's kinda ironic that Tim ended up killing Damian when all this time it's Damian who trolls like to mention "always trying to kill Tim".
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
We may see Jasons side of the story or at least hints at how he got off the streets again in Batwoman, for now, yeah theres not much to go off of so I'm not sure what TimBats did after finding him.
And all in all, well, its a bad future to be fair. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

I just wanna add one more general thought of this TEC issue.

*spoilers:*
It almost feels like an attempt to display the characters under an opposing light with their worst circumstances.

Dick Grayson is a responsible and dedicated vigilante who can take on leadership roles and guide others, and here we have a Dick Grayson who abandons his bat family and relinquishes responsibility.
Jason Todd is a fighter both physically and mentally who always comes back up, no matter how often he is dragged through the mud, and here we have a Jason Todd who loses both his ability and will to fight on and live.
Damian is trying his best to push himself in a direction that diverges from what he was taught by the league to maintain his father legacy, and here we have a Damian who loses all direction and destroys his fathers legacy.
Tim's whole mission when he began, even before Robin was to stave Batman off from his violent path after Jason died, and now he has become a violent Batman himself.

Definitely not an ideal future, no one was really sparred, but I suppose thats the point of these kinda storylines, the worse it is the more you want the characters involved to prevent them. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> By the way, for anyone caring about Injustice Mobile. From the stream, they said currently there's no plan to work on Red Hood yet. But they also said he is a favourite of them and would like to bring him into the game. So hopefully, when he's out it is worth it because skipping the first DLC for no reasons is just stupid.


Most demanded character

Still gets skipped

This is young justice all over again :P

----------


## G-Potion

> I just wanna add one more general thought of this TEC issue.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> It almost feels like an attempt to display the characters under an opposing light with their worst circumstances.
> 
> Dick Grayson is a responsible and dedicated vigilante who can take on leadership roles and guide others, and here we have a Dick Grayson who abandons his bat family and relinquishes responsibility.
> Jason Todd is a fighter both physically and mentally who always comes back up, no matter how often he is dragged through the mud, and here we have a Jason Todd who loses both his ability and will to fight on and live.
> Damian is trying his best to push himself in a direction that diverges from what he was taught by the league to maintain his father legacy, and here we have a Damian who loses all direction and destroys his fathers legacy.
> Tim's whole mission when he began, even before Robin was to stave Batman off from his violent path after Jason died, and now he has become a violent Batman himself.
> ...


Interesting thought. If that's the case though, it's a good thing that we know *spoilers:*
Jason eventually gets back up. His voice in Batwoman suggests that he's maybe put his trauma behind. Same can't be said for other Robins, yet.
*end of spoilers*

By the way, do you think the chance to kill TimBat that Jason mentioned happened when *spoilers:*
TimBat found him but he was too out of it to act
*end of spoilers*?

----------


## G-Potion

> Most demanded character
> 
> Still gets skipped
> 
> This is young justice all over again :P


It's funny how they said these sentences in succession. "He's our favourite character!!!" "No plan to have him yet!".

----------


## Rise

The fact that he is the most demanded character is the reason why they don't have him in the mobile game in the first place. Because they want people to keep buying his dlc instead.

Seriously you guys, not everything is kind of conspiracy against him.

Also, I have read Tec today and it got me interested in the fall of the Batmen. Don't know how to do the spoiler tag nor I understand the point of doing it since comics are already out, but spoiler warning anyway:

Damian, Kate and Tim are the reason behind this messed up future. Can't say I'm surprised..

Jason fighting a 100 mystic assassins at once is such cool concept that made me forgive the overplayed trope of old character losing some body part (why it always the eye?).

Not thrilled about Jason losing himself to drugs since I find it hard to believe that he do the thing that killed his mother nor I believe that his friends will let go this far, but not really upset about it since we already know that Jason gathered himself in the Batwoman issue.

----------


## RedBird

> Seriously you guys, not everything is kind of conspiracy against him.


uh?? I never implied any sort of conspiracy, I was just making a joke.

----------


## Aahz

Since I haven't read TEC yet, is there anything about what happened with the rest of the TEC team (Cass, Luke, Jean-Paul)?

----------


## RedBird

> Don't know how to do the spoiler tag nor I understand the point of doing it since comics are already out, but spoiler warning anyway:


The way to use spoiler tags is like this

[spoil*] Add your text here [/spoil*]

Just remove the stars

----------


## TheCape

> Since I haven't read TEC yet, is there anything about what happened with the rest of the TEC team (Cass, Luke, Jean-Paul)?


Not yet, is more an explanation of how the future became shit and Tim went bananas.

----------


## TheCape

> Not thrilled about Jason losing himself to drugs since I find it hard to believe that he do the thing that killed his mother nor I believe that his friends will let go this far, but not really upset about it since we already know that Jason gathered himself in the Batwoman issue.


Typical Jason, he get punch down just to get back up.

----------


## RedBird

> Since I haven't read TEC yet, is there anything about what happened with the rest of the TEC team (Cass, Luke, Jean-Paul)?


Well not them, however *spoilers:*
TimBats upon finding out that he is in the same timeline as Tim realises he can 'change things' and the thing he apparently has to do in order the change things is kill the person responsible for 'the fall of the Batmen', Batwoman.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

*@Rise:* 


So far Jason has managed to not go evil in these dystopian futures. Perk of being an antihero or already being a antagonist before?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

*spoilers:*
Yeah I'm quite ok with Jason going out fighting 100 assassins. Tall order instead. As for his friends not being there and that he resorts to drugs, same, the only things I'm not quite happy about. Unlike the other robins, Jason's book focuses so much on his friends that their absence is very noticeable.

*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> The fact that he is the most demanded character is the reason why they don't have him in the mobile game in the first place. Because they want people to keep buying his dlc instead.


Not actually think there's anything against him since I'm fairly sure he has to be in the game eventually. The reason you said makes me question how much more in demand he is compared to the other DLCs though, as he is the only one in this situation.

----------


## Rise

Boon said that Red Hood is the most requested character _by far_ and the one DC character they got the biggest reaction over. So, I imagine the other dlc characters weren't close.




> The way to use spoiler tags is like this
> 
> [spoil*] Add your text here [/spoil*]
> 
> Just remove the stars


Thank you. 




> *@Rise:* 
> 
> 
> So far Jason has managed to not go evil in these dystopian futures. Perk of being an antihero or already being a antagonist before?


The latter  :Stick Out Tongue: . The awful characterisation in pre-flashpoint probably made writers more careful of going this road with him.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s more than that. Having been already a antagonist or currently anti hero also means he`s equally rebellious of the sort of governments you see in those Dystopian futures. He openly dislikes extreme ruling. He would gasoline the fire to get a bigger burst and let it die. He`s more independent than most. 

Tim and Dick work better in the sense that the contrast is much bigger and they are bigger goodie-do shoes.

----------


## G-Potion

> It`s more than that. Having been already a antagonist or currently anti hero also means he`s equally rebellious of the sort of governments you see in those Dystopian futures. He openly dislikes extreme ruling. He would gasoline the fire to get a bigger burst and let it die. He`s more independent than most. 
> 
> Tim and Dick work better in the sense that the contrast is much bigger and they are bigger goodie-do shoes.


That's very true. Future Ends and Injustice 2 do come to mind.

----------


## Aioros22

Woa, I haven`t read Tec yet but I don`t mind Jason fending off 100 mystical assassins and fall out only to get back up. That fits Jason alright. A survivalist to the end.

----------


## G-Potion

Aaa finally got some scans from tumblr

----------


## Aioros22

So it seems that Jason was the logical next choice after Dick leaves but after working on a trail that ends in the Himalayas as the Red Hood, he loses his limbs and disappears. Interesting to notice that Jason as Batman (Countdown) is the one who seemed the most controlled and calm while the others derail into a mess. He was even leading the JL. That`s a nice time echo considering his destiny is to be The Red Hood. 

FutureTim also makes the mention he was never a good a figther as Dick and the others and that`s why he resorts to superhackingTM. I don`t see that fit well with his fanbase.

----------


## G-Potion

> So it seems that Jason was the logical next choice after Dick leaves but after working on a trail that ends in the Himalayas as the Red Hood, he loses his limbs and disappears. Interesting to notice that Jason as Batman (Countdown) is the one who seemed the most controlled and calm while the others derail into a mess. He was even leading the JL. That`s a nice time echo considering his destiny is to be The Red Hood.


Ai, stop. I'm this close to go find Lobdell and beg him to play more with Countdown.

----------


## Aioros22

Beg G. Beg to all your heart`s content. Make Loedbell cry with all the good ideas.

----------


## G-Potion

> Beg G. Beg to all your heart`s content. Make Loedbell cry with all the good ideas.


I need offerings. What do you suggest? Go watch his movie 10 times and write 10 glowing reviews for each for a start?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Those tec pages only show that Tynion doesn't have the slightest idea on Jason's character but this isn't anything really new since he proved it when he take care of RHATO. Jason is not a survivalist nor a mess up and isn't destined to be the Red Hood either. Jason is simply anyone who refuses to give up no matter the cost.

----------


## RedBird

> So it seems that Jason was the logical next choice after Dick leaves but after working on a trail that ends in the Himalayas as the Red Hood, he loses his limbs and disappears.


Huh, honestly that implication didnt hit me till now. Thats actually kinda cute that Tim would seek out *both* his older brothers to take on the cowl.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason is not a a survivalist, he's someone who doesn't give up...these two are opposites how?

He was messed up and then got back up. Maybe it would be nicer if he arranged cyber limbs right away and fought with the others over the Mantle but keep in mind this is a Tim story where he ends being the Batman. Jason getting back up regardless matters more than doning the mantle in a story that is ultimely how none of them end up being worthy.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason is simply anyone who refuses to give up no matter the cost.


Yeah but each of the characters are kinda pushed to an extreme in this arc, Jason giving up or 'appearing' to give up is an extreme for him. Besides he clearly hasnt given up yet since he is up and about helping Batwoman, so he isnt down for the count.
I'm just wondering where the hell Dick is, how hard is he ignoring the devastation upon Gotham?

----------


## RedBird

> Jason getting back up regardless matters more than doning the mantle in a story that is ultimely how none of them end up being worthy.


Huh, another point I didnt consider. Jason didn't even get a chance to don it, he cant be presented as a bad or unworthy Batman by default. :P

----------


## G-Potion

> Huh, another point I didnt consider. Jason didn't even get a chance to don it, he cant be presented as bad or unworthy Batman by default. :P


I'll take worthy if only he had a chance rather than unworthy.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> I'll take worthy if only he had a chance rather than unworthy.


Well countdown JayBat was solid proof of that, in the most perfect rendition of the DC universe he would be the perfect Batman, bless that comic for that piece of canon.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason is not a a survivalist, he's someone who doesn't give up...these two are opposites how?


Not giving up doesn't necessarily means being a survivalist, Lobdell understood that when he wrote the Future's End issue, Jason is someone whose determined to follow his code, his ideals until the bitter end, he would rather die than giving them up. Tynion wrote the exact opposite of what Jason's character is. He did the same on RHATO when he wrote Jason crying like a child after following blindly the League's orders.




> He was messed up and then got back up. Maybe it would be nicer if he arranged cyber limbs right away and fought with the others over the Mantle but keep in mind this is a Tim story where he ends being the Batman. Jason getting back up regardless matters more than doning the mantle in a story that is ultimely how none of them end up being worthy.


You're missing the point. any writer that writes Jason as a failure from the get go, that it would be unable to do something more due any perceived flaws on his character is a writer that is bad at writing Jason.

----------


## Rise

> Jason *is not a survivalist* nor a mess up and isn't destined to be the Red Hood either. Jason is simply anyone who refuses to give up no matter the cost.


Uh what? Jason has always been a survivalist since his days in the streets.

And anyway, it's a messed up future. You are interested in it? Try it or simply leave it because it's not going to affect Jason in his book.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not giving up doesn't necessarily means being a survivalist, Lobdell understood that when he wrote the Future's End issue, Jason is someone whose determined to follow his code, his ideals until the bitter end, he would rather die than giving them up. Tynion wrote the exact opposite of what Jason's character is. He did the same on RHATO when he wrote Jason crying like a child after following blindly the League's orders.
> 
> 
> 
> You're missing the point. any writer that writes Jason as a failure from the get go, that it would be unable to do something more due any perceived flaws on his character is a writer that is bad at writing Jason.


Uh... what does he fail at?

----------


## Aioros22

He's talking abour Jason's feelings after losing his limbs. How he momentarily according to futureTim "gave up on life". 

If this was it I'd fully agree but we know it isn't. Now sure; Loedbell and Winnick would have written him replacing limbs and kick ass but the whole Tim affair to facist madness escalated in due time it wasn't the issue then.

----------


## G-Potion

> He's talking abour Jason's feelings after losing his limbs. How he momentarily according to futureTim "gave up on life". 
> 
> If this was it I'd fully agree with him but se know it isn't.


Even if it is the case, the keyword for me here is momentarily. In one stroke he lost both eye and leg, if he shrugs it off like nothing that would be amazing, but also amazingly unrealistic. I don't think it's a failure to only get up after spending some time in personal limbo. Also as we saw in Batwoman, he didn't have access to the prosthetic that allowed him to walk without a cane. So in this setting it was out of the question maybe?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Even if it is the case, the keyword for me here is momentarily. In one stroke he lost both eye and leg, if he shrugs it off like nothing that would be amazing, but also amazingly unrealistic. I don't think it's a failure to only get up after spending sometime in personal limbo.


We're talking of a story where aliens exist and a fifty something woman is in better physical shape than most young people, realism has long throw up its hands in exasperation and has gone home. Logic simply doesn't work here.

Tynion has a superficial knowledge of Jason's character. For him, Jason is nothing more than a screw up, someone who has no real heroism in him and just reckless, that will retire with the tail between his legs at the first sign of trouble and who needs someone to tell him what to do.

----------


## G-Potion

> We're talking of a story where aliens exist and a fifty something woman is in better physical shape than most young people, realism has long throw up its hands in exasperation and has gone home. Logic simply doesn't work here.
> 
> Tynion has a superficial knowledge of Jason's character. For him, Jason is nothing more than a screw up, someone who has no real heroism in him and just reckless, that will retire with the tail between his legs at the first sign of trouble and who needs someone to tell him what to do.


Yes logic doesn't work here. Whether anything is available or not is up to the writer intent. As we see in Batwoman, Jason helps in anyway he can. If there's a solution for artificial leg that works just like normal leg, why didn't he take it? If the reason is 'he gives up on life', then that doesn't quite fit his voice in there, where he still retains some sassiness and his mind is still as sharp. Then one easy reason would just be, somehow that technology is available here, as dumb as it sounds.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes logic doesn't work here. Whether anything is available or not is up to the writer intent. *As we see in Batwoman*, Jason helps in anyway he can. If there's a solution for artificial leg that works just like normal leg, why didn't he take it? If the reason is 'he gives up on life', then that doesn't quite fit his voice in there, where he still retains some sassiness and his mind is still as sharp. Then one easy reason would just be, somehow that technology is available here, as dumb as it sounds.


And that is precisely the problem.

Jason needs for Batwoman to come and get him on standing on his own feet rather than doing by himself. Tynion still sees Jason as a sidekick, following the lead of other characters instead of making his own path. Whether he's aware or not, he's mirroring Jason's time with Bruce by putting him as Kate's helper.

----------


## RedBird

> And that is precisely the problem.
> 
> Jason needs for Batwoman to come and get him on standing on his own *feet* rather than doing by himself.


Foot


I'm sorry I'll see myself out.

----------


## G-Potion

> And that is precisely the problem.
> 
> *Jason needs for Batwoman to come and get him on standing on his own feet rather than doing by himself*. Tynion still sees Jason as a sidekick, following the lead of other characters instead of making his own path. Whether he's aware or not, he's mirroring Jason's time with Bruce by putting him as Kate's helper.


We don't know about this yet, do we? Playing Alfred to Batwoman is one thing, but getting himself up and start living again is a different matter, which he could have done it before teaming up with Batwoman.

----------


## G-Potion

> Foot
> 
> 
> I'm sorry I'll see myself out.


How could you!!!! Trampling on a man's pain.  :Mad:

----------


## RedBird

So sorry G :P

Also nevermind I'm back in.

Whilst I'm not Tynions biggest fan, I find his characterization of Jason to be usually be slightly off and much less complex than he actually is. (Actually you could say this for every character he writes, they are all pretty shallow and tropey.)

Regardless considering Jason is still fighting the good fight and trying to defend Gotham, and not abandoning it (Dick) and not trying to destroy it (Damian) and not changing his moral code and himself in the process (Tim), I say he fairs pretty well in this horrible future. This whole thing feels like a worst case scenario, and if the worst case scenario for Jason is that he remains one of the few that gives a damn about Gotham and still wants to save it even after being crippled for life, I can dig that.

----------


## Alycat

Good for Jason. When there's crime afoot then he truly should be the one to stay. It's his home more than Dick's which has always been the case. It's why I'm glad he stays grounded there in his own book. That said Dick truly had the right  mindset. Gotham sucks. Let it burn.

----------


## G-Potion

> Good for Jason. When there's crime *afoot* then he truly should be the one to stay. It's his home more than Dick's which has always been the case. It's why I'm glad he stays grounded there in his own book. That said Dick truly had the right  mindset. Gotham sucks. Let it burn.


Not you too Alycat.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rise

> So sorry G :P
> 
> Also nevermind I'm back in.
> 
> Whilst I'm not Tynions biggest fan, I find his characterization of Jason to be usually be slightly off and much less complex than he actually is. (Actually you could say this for every character he writes, they are all pretty shallow and tropey.)
> 
> Regardless considering Jason is still fighting the good fight and trying to defend Gotham, and not abandoning it (Dick) and not trying to destroy it (Damian) and not changing his moral code and himself in the process (Tim), I say he fairs pretty well in this horrible future. This whole thing feels like a worst case scenario, and if the worst case scenario for Jason is that he remains one of the few that gives a damn about Gotham and still wants to save it even after being crippled for life, I can dig that.


Pretty much. It's not deep, but it's not bad either for worst case scenario.

----------


## Caivu

> (Actually you could say this for every character he writes, they are all pretty shallow and tropey.)


Any character written by _anyone_ is "tropey". That's what tropes are: fiction-building bricks.

----------


## Alycat

> Not you too Alycat.


Gotta get the jokes in while the the issue is hot  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Any character written by _anyone_ is "tropey". That's what tropes are: fiction-building bricks.


What I mean is that he generally uses tropes of the characters based on their most stereotypical and simplified form, which is ooc.

eg: In his most shallow form Jason is the jock/badboy archetype, so he must love talkin bout chicks and drinking all the time right?, he must exude real confidence, also since he is a big guy, he must be like a jock right, all brawn no brain right? Hint, all those are either wrong or heavily exaggerated points of his character. 

In my opinion, Tynion relies too much on the tropes belonging to the character archetypes that HE considers each of the robins fitting into, to inform him of their actual character, which is ridiculous since they all almost go against their perceived archetypes when you actually analyze them.

----------


## RedBird

> Not you too Alycat.


Look G, we're just happy he is putting his foot down and saying no to this future Tyranny. :P

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Any character written by _anyone_ is "tropey". That's what tropes are: fiction-building bricks.


Not when they're good writers. One of the reasons Alan Moore is so praised is precisely because he subverts and deconstructs those tropes or creates new ones entirely.  Tynion has always written his stories like a high schooler writes fanfiction, with zero understanding or interested on going beyond those tropes.

----------


## TheCape

> In my opinion, Tynion relies too much on the tropes belonging to the character archetypes that HE considers each of the robins fitting into, to inform him of their actual character, which is ridiculous since they all almost go against their perceived archetypes when you actually analyze them.


True, i apreciate that Tynion brougth some parts of old Tim back (not wanting to be a costumed vigilante forever, his "big picture" thinking), but the overeliance in tech and hackingn is really annoying. Also, props to the part about the Robins being the oppisite of the archetypes, sometimes i feel that people take fanon way too seriously.

----------


## G-Potion

> Look G, we're just happy he is putting his foot down and saying no to this future Tyranny. :P


I'm not setting my foot anywhere near your exercise of one-upping each other. Man pain, I tell you. MAN PAIN!!

----------


## Caivu

> Not when they're good writers. One of the reasons Alan Moore is so praised is precisely because he subverts and deconstructs those tropes or creates new ones entirely.


Deconstructed tropes are still tropes. There shouldn't be this negative connotation around tropes, because without them writing fiction wouldn't be possible.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm not setting my foot anywhere near your exercise of one-upping each other. Man pain, I tell you. MAN PAIN!!


Aren't you getting a kick out of this? I'm just glad that Jason's sole purpose for a while was protecting Gotham to the best of his ability. He stepped up and put his heart and sole into it.  I'm done now.

----------


## RedBird

> Aren't you getting a kick out of this? I'm just glad that Jason's sole purpose for a while was protecting Gotham to the best of his ability. He stepped up and put his heart and sole into it.  I'm done now.


Exactly, he hopped right back into the vigilantes business, good for him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Exactly, he hopped right back into the vigilantes business, good for him.





> Aren't you getting a kick out of this? I'm just glad that Jason's sole purpose for a while was protecting Gotham to the best of his ability. He stepped up and put his heart and sole into it. I'm done now.


I see through your tricks. I remain the good loyal Jason fan. Unlike you two who heel-face-turned at the drop of a hat.

----------


## RedBird

> I see through your tricks. I remain the good loyal Jason fan. Unlike you two who heel-face-turned at the drop of a hat.


Okay I'm being cheeky, but I'm sure he can take a bit of teasing, lets be real, Jason was never a goody two shoes himself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Deconstructed tropes are still tropes. There shouldn't be this negative connotation around tropes, because without them writing fiction wouldn't be possible.


That is different to characters being "tropey"

And no one ever said using tropes were wrong, just that Tynion is a bad writer that can't do anything of note with them.

----------


## magpieM

It's really weird that Jason could turn up to be so self-destructive just because he lost one eye and a leg. I mean, seriously, considering the technology level at that time, losing eye/leg shouldn't be a problem at all! He can just replace them with artificial ones with even better quality and extra functions! That's a lame reason. 

And his (step)mother died because of drugs, and his (once) best friend was struggling with them, too. I don't see any possible reason that Jason could let himself to follow the same route.

I don't believe Jason would kill himself with such a slow and painful way without any dignity. If he hates someone/himself, he'd rather be killed by his enemy, or drag all of them into hell with him, or sacrifice himself honorably in a real battle.

He made his way out of his own grave. He will never give up. He will never settle. That's what shinning in his spirit.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's really weird that Jason could turn up to be so self-destructive just because he lost one eye and a leg. I mean, seriously, considering the technology level at that time, losing eye/leg shouldn't be a problem at all! He can just replace them with artificial ones with even better quality and extra functions! That's a lame reason. 
> 
> And his (step)mother died because of drugs, and his (once) best friend was struggling with them, too. I don't see any possible reason that Jason could let himself to follow the same route.
> 
> I don't believe Jason would kill himself with such a slow and painful way without any dignity. If he hates someone/himself, he'd rather be killed by his enemy, or drag all of them into hell with him, or sacrifice himself honorably in a real battle.


*Exactly*

That is what I've been arguing the entire time.

----------


## Alycat

> I see through your tricks. I remain the good loyal Jason fan. Unlike you two who heel-face-turned at the drop of a hat.


At least we have two heels to turn. But no, I seriously got a kick out of that page. Dick bounced, Jason was busy having a hard life, Damian is evil, Tim is evil and a hacker!




> *Exactly*
> 
> That is what I've been arguing the entire time.


Expecting Tynion not to ruin characters is too much. I honestly couldn't see Dick bouncing either. Even if he didn't want to be Batman, he would stay for the others. He has said as much even recently.

----------


## Aioros22

Characters who are known to not give up have fallen quite hard here and there. Batman shown his weakness of control in "Venom" by getting addicted and his pride was his crushing defeat in "Knigthfall" before Bane broke his back. Daredevil lost everything to the Kingpin, became homeless and disappeared only to rise again in "Daredevil: Born Again". Captain America had a storyline about struggling addiction without the serum in his body. 

Its easy to speak on how all Jason needed to do was get new limbs and die fighting but a character's psyche always struggles more than the body. 

Maybe Tynion's take is ooc but not based on just having issues. I dont a want marty stu, I want someone that overcomes the odds and some odds hit harder than others. 

P.S - "drugs" arent mentioned, they show him smoking a blunt but we dont know what it is. Might just be pot.

----------


## Sardorim

> *Exactly*
> 
> That is what I've been arguing the entire time.


He lost to 100 mystic ninja.

Most assuredly he was tortured severely before Tim found him as I doubt he lost a leg and eye in battle.

Bruce was also dead, Jason was burying himself in work.

Jason giving up after all that isn't farfetch, everyone has a breaking point and this Jason clearly didn't have Bizzaro ir Artemis as his safety net.

----------


## magpieM

Btw, it seems that in the future Jason wouldn't end up with Artemis? What a pity...

I thought they may have a couple of kids together: Daughter becomes an (half) Amazon, son becomes a (half) demon, creating chaos around in the future (when Jason's dead at that time)...

----------


## Aioros22

It`s just another equally valid character bit I guess. Loedbell`s Jason without his friends as seen in Future`s End is a man on a suicide mission, as in the sort of guy who will bring down the shit with him in a last big hurrah! I`m aware Dark and others will dislike immensily this sort of take because when Gotham was in the brink and Bruce being dead, etc, he "let it happen" to lose himself. That`s why he probably feels responsible for Tim`s actions in Batwoman #6. 

That said, heroes sometimes don`t get to make a last hurrah *until* they fall harder and then get back up. Tim at a certain point is someone he knows well "eh, let him handle it, he`s one of the good hats". Until things get even darker and he snaps out of it because something needs to be done. What? Well, we`re still finding out but so far it includes being back to business and allying himself with "Tim`s sworm enemy, Kate.

----------


## Aioros22

> He lost to 100 mystic ninja.
> 
> Most assuredly he was tortured severely before Tim found him as I doubt he lost a leg and eye in battle.
> 
> Bruce was also dead, Jason was burying himself in work.
> 
> Jason giving up after all that isn't farfetch, everyone has a breaking point and this Jason clearly didn't have Bizzaro ir Artemis as his safety net.


We`re not even sure if he lost  :Wink:  we just know it cost him a leg and eye. 

Like FutureTim says "he did better than you think" and this is a Tim who aknowledges he was never a good a fighter as Jason, Dick and Damian.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He lost to 100 mystic ninja.
> 
> Most assuredly he was tortured severely before Tim found him as I doubt he lost a leg and eye in battle.
> 
> Bruce was also dead, Jason was burying himself in work.
> 
> Jason giving up after all that isn't farfetch, everyone has a breaking point and this *Jason clearly didn't have Bizzaro ir Artemis as his safety net*.


Jason doesn't need a safety net.

But your showing exactly the kind of cheap emotional response Tynion goes for with his writing. "B-but he beat 100 mystical ninjas isn't that badass? And, he like totally loses a leg and an eye because it looks cool..." and so on.

Tynion fails to give any character he writers any proper depth or nuance.

For all of its faults, Countdown's writers understood Jason on such a way that Tynion can't

----------


## Aioros22

He`s gotta need something, otherwise he wouldn`t turn quasi-suicidal without Roy and Kory in FE.

----------


## magpieM

The only way I image that could make Jason so self-destructive is that he lost his love or his kids because of himself or his mistakes. That would be a real catastrophic event to destroy his spirit.

Losing eye/leg in a battle (no matter win or lose in the end) against tons of enemies is certainly a bad thing. But I don't think it could make him so emotionally depressed. Sure he'd very upset about it for some time. But he would still try to deal with his lose with artificial body parts and get ready for more fight and revenge. Therefore doing drugs is non-sense because it is towards the opposite direction. There is no turning back from it. You can never get back to peak condition once you get that habit. It is a sign of complete giving up.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, he did. We know he`s back into the field to take down Tim later on. Besides, it`s not like Tynion is going deep on it, he`s giving a general thumb on the other Robins for the setup. It`s not even the first time, Jason had Venom and never felt the drawback of habit kick like Bane, Batman and Bronze Tiger did. 

Must be something to do with the cleansing and training under Ducra since it`s unique to him.

----------


## Aioros22

http://mgnemesi.tumblr.com/

Todays Prompt is The Ghost Kid.

WHO ELSE IF NOT JASON?!?!?!?!

Again, I had something else in mind: I wanted us to see Jason in the distance, his full figure standing as if on a mirror or lake and disappearing under layers of white. But for that Id have to do the heavy lifting in Photoshop , and I thought thatd defeat the purpose of inktober.

Media: Ball Point pen + Photoshop for levels and the blur

----------


## Aahz

I actually don't have a big problem with TEC, the whole set up for this future wouldn't really work if Jason was still active.

----------


## Aioros22

I understand disliking him smoking weed  and I can concur with being unecessary but that`s what I agree. He`s gotta be out of comission otherwise you wouldn`t have a setup to begin with. An active Jason wanting revenge only stops when the target is down. 

Between this and Batwoman#6 the whole setup is basically what, five years worth? Tim claims he`s spending a whole year tracking Jason on his last route that ends in the Himalayas and we know Future Tim is mia when we see Kate and Jason in Batwoman(because he`s been imprisioned by Jor-El). That gives time for Jason to snap out it, get better and come back to Gotham.

----------


## magpieM

Well Venom is another case. It can surely improve his speed/strength and many other things. But I don't think he's using _this_ type of drug in the panel where he is sitting among other junkies on the street. It looks like he is using _the other_ type of drugs that can bring a moment of pleasure and illusion to escape from reality but meanwhile ruin his mind & body in long run.

If he is really coming back to the fight, then the panel showing his moment of 'lost' and 'upset' conveys some very misleading graphic information regarding the core nature of this character. That's the worst thing for a warrior to touch when he/she is in low time and preparing for future fight. That's just my opinion.

Hope he can put himself together soon in that story...

----------


## Aahz

> Between this and Batwoman#6 the whole setup is basically what, five years worth? Tim claims he`s spending a whole year tracking Jason on his last route that ends in the Himalayas and we know Future Tim is mia when we see Kate and Jason in Batwoman(because he`s been imprisioned by Jor-El). That gives time for Jason to snap out it, get better and come back to Gotham.


It must be more than 5 years from now, at least I interpreted time reference in Batwoman#6 as five years after Tim became Batman, and if Damian was old enough to become Batman before that it must be more like 10-15 years in the future.

Btw. the Robin how looks actually bad in this is imo Dick, how apparently did nothing after Tim went evil.

----------


## Aahz

I'm actually also curious about the future Jasons in Beyond and Nightwing New Order, I hope at least one of them had his personal happy end.

----------


## Aioros22

I get it but Venom is a drug that creates habit kick as the drawback and leaves the user weak. Bruce, Bane and Tiger have all felt it. What he`s smoking is most likely weed or another of the so called recreative/spiritual/medicine drugs. He`s supposed to be still in the Himalayas or werebouts. I`m not saying I like him doing it, he should be anti drugs as it come but like you mention with Venom, different drugs do different things but they`re all usually to numb a certain pain. 

I don`t see them that differently than say smoking cigars or drinking other than some are way faster in grabbing you. It`s all drugs that create habits that long run damage the body and psyche. Jason knew Catherine Todd was a recovering addict but that didn`t exactly stopped him from smoking cigarettes when he was living in the streets. We can all say is not the exact same thing but since we know he`s back in action he either didn`t spent much at it or some other reason. I`m guessing he mostly felt useless and had to find himself again.

----------


## Aioros22

What I am trying to say is, while on any other situation he wouldn`t, in this case is possible both his psyche and body were left too damaged. Batman and Daredevil aren`t the sort to fail resisting getting addicted, or fall down to the point of been living in the streets either but there`s a story here or there about it. 

The most recent was Dark Knight: Rises now that I think about it. 

All I want is this, whatever it is, to be a one thing event. _This_ future and obviously nothing close to a recurring thing and the payoff is, the hero rises out of his own Hell. We know he seemingly does already, which is the main thing that makes it tolerable.

----------


## Caivu

> It must be more than 5 years from now, at least I interpreted time reference in Batwoman#6 as five years after Tim became Batman, and if Damian was old enough to become Batman before that it must be more like 10-15 years in the future.
> 
> Btw. the Robin how looks actually bad in this is imo Dick, how apparently did nothing after Tim went evil.


Detective #966 says it takes place at least after 2035.

----------


## Aioros22

> It must be more than 5 years from now, at least I interpreted time reference in Batwoman#6 as five years after Tim became Batman, and if Damian was old enough to become Batman before that it must be more like 10-15 years in the future.
> 
>  Btw. the Robin how looks actually bad in this is imo Dick, how apparently did nothing after Tim went evil.


I think it is telling Dick`s fanbase aren`t even touching this one. Nobody looks worse than Dick. He was _given_ the thing, doesn`t like it/feel worthy/wathever and just call it quits and leaves. 

Ouch. In fact, ouch number two, Tim at the end basically admits he`s not worthy either. Ouch number three, Damian here is the 666 version, so whether he`s worthy or not, well, a long term debate but since Batman in INC wanted to called it off from ever happening..the only former Robin pointed out as canditate that is not mention as being unqorthy of the mantle is Jason because of what happens to him. Then again because he felt damaged at the time maybe it`s beyond the point but we still don`t know the actual reasons he returned to the stray life, yet. 

Assam was right, Cass is the one  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Inkdaddy and the theatricalred red domino makes an entrance, who else?

----------


## Alycat

> I think it is telling Dick`s fanbase aren`t even touching this one. Nobody looks worse than Dick. He was _given_ the thing, doesn`t like it/feel worthy/wathever and just call it quits and leaves. 
> 
> Ouch. In fact, ouch number two, Tim at the end basically admits he`s not worthy either. Ouch number three, Damian here is the 666 version, so whether he`s worthy or not, well, a long term debate but since Batman in INC wanted to called it off from ever happening..the only former Robin pointed out as canditate that is not mention as being unqorthy of the mantle is Jason because of what happens to him. Then again because he felt damaged at the time maybe it`s beyond the point but we still don`t know the actual reasons he returned to the stray life, yet. 
> 
> Assam was right, Cass is the one


Cass has to exsist first to be the one though, so there truly is no one who can replace Batman is the lesson here.

----------


## Aioros22

Bah, all it keeps Jason is plot bad luck and Toni drunk Daniel.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Not giving up doesn't necessarily means being a survivalist, Lobdell understood that when he wrote the Future's End issue, Jason is someone whose determined to follow his code, his ideals until the bitter end, he would rather die than giving them up. Tynion wrote the exact opposite of what Jason's character is. He did the same on RHATO when he wrote Jason crying like a child after following blindly the League's orders.
> 
> 
> 
> You're missing the point. any writer that writes Jason as a failure from the get go, that it would be unable to do something more due any perceived flaws on his character is a writer that is bad at writing Jason.


This is a future where Jason has seen a lot of things go wrong. Sometimes there's only so much someone can take before they will to carry on the cause dies.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This is a future where Jason has seen a lot of things go wrong. Sometimes there's only so much someone can take before they will to carry on the cause dies.


Losing Batman and most of the world to a super intelligent AI working with Brainiac, breaking ties with Kori and Roy and surviving an assassination attempt from his former best friend didn't broke Jason's spirit. A fascist Tim is small beans compared to that, more when Jason wasn't even in Gotham at the time.

----------


## G-Potion

> Losing Batman and most of the world to a super intelligent AI working with Brainiac, breaking ties with Kori and Roy and surviving an assassination attempt from his former best friend didn't broke Jason's spirit. A fascist Tim is small beans compared to that, more when Jason wasn't even in Gotham at the time.


We don't know the tone of this future nor what he had seen/lost leading up to the battle. In the end we know that he is still in there fighting the good fight so why begrudge him of some years of weakness? Idk I guess I can relate to having an injury that convinced me that im useless at what I do now, and it took years not to treat it, but rather to overcome that fear/weakness in my mind. I considered it the hardest thing I've ever done, and myself mentally stronger because of it. There's no shame in having helps along the way either.

----------


## TheCape

In spite everything and even if you find this charactherization occ, Jason still comes looking better than the other batkids.

----------


## kiwiliko

> The only way I image that could make Jason so self-destructive is that he lost his love or his kids because of himself or his mistakes. That would be a real catastrophic event to destroy his spirit.
> 
> Losing eye/leg in a battle (no matter win or lose in the end) against tons of enemies is certainly a bad thing. But I don't think it could make him so emotionally depressed. Sure he'd very upset about it for some time. But he would still try to deal with his lose with artificial body parts and get ready for more fight and revenge. Therefore doing drugs is non-sense because it is towards the opposite direction. There is no turning back from it. You can never get back to peak condition once you get that habit. It is a sign of complete giving up.


Kinda also torn because it's a topic worthy of discussion if you consider any Batfamily member losing a bodypart similar to the kind of harsh adjustments soldiers go through giving it a realistic feeling. I can definitely see why losing a limb would have an impact on fully human vigilantes who depend very heavily on their bodies for their life work. Buuuut this is the same universe where Batman is in a team with cyborg so that unfortunately cheapens it.

Agree a little with Dark tho. It doesn't bug me as much to see Jason hit a low point but I do call it out of character for that low point to be defined by drugs. There's many ways this could've been played but drugs is almost a go to trope when anyone wants to show weakness at this point, Bruce has done it, Aresenal, Bane etc...
Jason in particular given his history would need a way more thorough explanation than this one panel to justify him ever getting near drugs at all. It's not seeing him at his worst that's an issue, more that the writers choice to have that moment be drugs says they picked a easy way out trope. 

At least he does find his way back. This implies Dick literally left Jason to go nuts for a year and lose his limbs + will to live, left Damian behind to go nuts and then left Tim behind long enough for Tim to go nuts and then kill Damian. Of all the character butcherings to happen that one's quite a winner.

----------


## fanfan13

> I think it is telling Dick`s fanbase aren`t even touching this one. Nobody looks worse than Dick. He was _given_ the thing, doesn`t like it/feel worthy/wathever and just call it quits and leaves. 
> 
> Ouch. In fact, ouch number two, Tim at the end basically admits he`s not worthy either. Ouch number three, Damian here is the 666 version, so whether he`s worthy or not, well, a long term debate but since Batman in INC wanted to called it off from ever happening..the only former Robin pointed out as canditate that is not mention as being unqorthy of the mantle is Jason because of what happens to him. Then again because he felt damaged at the time maybe it`s beyond the point but we still don`t know the actual reasons he returned to the stray life, yet. 
> 
> Assam was right, Cass is the one


Yeah if Cass became Batman in the first place, none of this Drama would have had to happen. 
The amount of butchering is just... I agree with you and kiliwiko, Dick has it the worst. He literally abandons not just Batman but also his brothers.

----------


## G-Potion

> Bah, all it keeps Jason is plot bad luck and Toni drunk Daniel.


I don't know anything about this Tony Daniel you spoke of....... *aggressive denial*

----------


## G-Potion

A nice little write-up about Jason from TheTVType to help you all feel good.  :Embarrassment: 

http://www.thetvtype.com/red-hood-hope/




> Jason Todd’s history and present is one that sticks with many DC Comics readers as the anti-hero of DC. However, I found a hero that has shown what it’s truly like to go through an accurate healing process.

----------


## yohyoi

I always like it when people either blame Bruce or Dick when a family member does something stupid and wrong. Like it's their responsibility to dictate the lives of other, some of them are adults like Jason. It also shows an over reliance to these two to fix and maintain the family. Maybe we should be angry how writers portray the other Bat family members as easily corrupted and morally weak. You know... just maybe Dick can not be the only Robin who does not evolve to a Batman who kills.

----------


## G-Potion

> I always like it when people either blame Bruce or Dick when a family member does something stupid and wrong. Like it's their responsibility to dictate the lives of other, some of them are adults like Jason. It also shows an over reliance to these two to fix and maintain the family. Maybe we should be angry how writers portray the other Bat family members as easily corrupted and morally weak. You know... just maybe Dick can not be the only Robin who does not evolve to a Batman who kills.


Is this in regard to the Tec issue or something else?

----------


## yohyoi

> Is this in regard to the Tec issue or anything else?


The 'Tec issue is a recent example, but it's pretty much a mainstay idea in the Bat family fandom. Whenever something bad happens, it's Bruce's fault no matter what. Whenever it's not Bruce fault, it's Dick fault because he is next in line to Bruce. It's something rarely discussed and just used time and time again to force drama.

----------


## G-Potion

> The 'Tec issue is a recent example, but it's pretty much a mainstay idea in the Bat family fandom. Whenever something bad happens, it's Bruce's fault no matter what. Whenever it's not Bruce fault, it's Dick fault because he is next in line to Bruce. It's something rarely discussed and just used time and time again to force drama.


What stupid and wrong thing that was done and subsequentially blamed on Dick?

On the Tec issue, Dick doesn't look good because it _looks_ like he basically washes his hands of the whole mess, gets himself a nice happy ending while the rest of the family's lives go to shit. He doesn't dictate their lives, sure, but would you stay in your happy bubble if you know your family is out there being killed off/broken beyond hope? The complains happen because Dick as fans know it should be better than this, and Tynion is basically doing a disservice to the character. To be fair though, if it had been anyone else instead of Dick, they wouldn't look any better either. What you get for being _a family_.


If there are any other occasions, you need to list them out here first.

----------


## Aahz

> I always like it when people either blame Bruce or Dick when a family member does something stupid and wrong. Like it's their responsibility to dictate the lives of other, some of them are adults like Jason.


If Dick steps down from being Batman, it is his responsibility to find the right successor.
And if one Batfamily member turns evil it is imo the responsibility of the rest to stop him.




> You know... just maybe Dick can not be the only Robin who does not evolve to a Batman who kills.


Didn't he become something similar in New Order?

----------


## RedBird

Carpe Diem

----------


## G-Potion

> Carpe Diem


Just saw this on twitter. This made me sad already damnnnn.

----------


## kiwiliko

> The 'Tec issue is a recent example, but it's pretty much a mainstay idea in the Bat family fandom. Whenever something bad happens, it's Bruce's fault no matter what. Whenever it's not Bruce fault, it's Dick fault because he is next in line to Bruce. It's something rarely discussed and just used time and time again to force drama.


There's actually really little I can think of that people pin on Dick, this feels more like a Bruce issue but even then I can't say Bruce takes no fault because all of his Robins were minors or kids at best when they took on the job and that will result in a lot of responsibility pinned to Bruce for a lot of readers.

I don't see anyone calling it Dick's fault either for Tec but it's undeniable his character took a beating. He's not responsible for other peoples decision but his own decision that family stuff got too hard and that he let Damian, who at the time would've been 13, to go off the rails definitely says unsavoury things.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## TheCape

I'm curious to know who are your favorite writters for Jason and who, in your opinion who gets his voice better?

And when it comes to the other Robin, what kind of dynamic you would like to see?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm curious to know who are your favorite writters for Jason and who, in your opinion who gets his voice better?
> 
> And when it comes to the other Robin, what kind of dynamic you would like to see?


Lobdell>Countdown's Writing Team>Greg Pak>Winnick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>Everyone Else>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tynion

With Dick: A respectful and tense relationship, they really don't like each other but they can put their differences aside and trust each other's skills when the situation calls for it

With Tim: Brotherly bond, the only one besides Bruce and Alfred that Jason truly trusts.

With Damian: A mentor of sorts, mature and willing to endure Damian's childish outbursts but calling him out when needed.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm curious to know who are your favorite writters for Jason and who, in your opinion who gets his voice better?
> 
> And when it comes to the other Robin, what kind of dynamic you would like to see?


1-Lobdell for getting Jason on a deeper level than most, his ideas, and direction for him.

2-Winnick for a sharper voice and showcase of Jason's skills/cunning.

3-Countdown team for the Challengers dynamics (as well as being the brain of that team), taking Jason to the multiverses, JayBat, that Earth where Bruce killed for him and its outcome.

4-Greg Pak for making Jason his own man even in the presence of Bats and Supes. Solid voice, has his own agency, a good fighter.

5-Lee Bermejo for that one redeeming issue of RW.

----------


## G-Potion

For the dynamics with other Robins, there are quite a lot that I don't think I can get all of them out at once. At the top of my head, I'd like Jason to share the mentor role with Dick to the younger robins as well as the other younger Bats, being the oldest two and having different approaches should make it interesting to see how the younger ones react to them.

For Dick, more like the annual would be good for me. Just making up for lost time and getting to really know each other.

Then, with Damian, I'd like them to bond in someway that involves Talia.

For Tim, anything other than the brain/brawn combo.

----------


## TheCape

> Then, with Damian, I'd like them to bond in someway that involves Talia.


As long as Jason doesn't slip any comments about what happen at the end of Lost Days  :Smile: , i think that it could work.



> For Tim, anything other than the brain/brown combo.


I agreed.

----------


## TheCape

> With Dick: A respectful and tense relationship, they really don't like each other but they can put their differences aside and trust each other's skills when the situation calls for it
> 
> With Tim: Brotherly bond, the only one besides Bruce and Alfred that Jason truly trusts.
> 
> With Damian: A mentor of sorts, mature and willing to endure Damian's childish outbursts but calling him out when needed.


I could get behind of this.

----------


## Aioros22

> I always like it when people either blame Bruce or Dick when a family member does something stupid and wrong. Like it's their responsibility to dictate the lives of other, some of them are adults like Jason. It also shows an over reliance to these two to fix and maintain the family. Maybe we should be angry how writers portray the other Bat family members as easily corrupted and morally weak. You know... just maybe Dick can not be the only Robin who does not evolve to a Batman who kills.


I`m guessing this is because the argument over at Dick`s thread otherwise this morally weak line doesn`t ring a bell and you would have to be more expecific. 

Sometimes it is their fault and when it is their fault they have to be called on it like everybody else. There`s nothing amazingly obscene about it.

----------


## G-Potion

pentapoda:



> Jason ends up in Gotham when hes dead  post-funeral, pre-triumphant return  where no one knows who he is. Everything looks different from this perspective: Dicks a fucking mess and not as experienced as Jason remembered. He fights with Bruce more than Jason does. And then theres infant-Robin-Tim, who is very bad at pretending not to be connected to Dick Grayson, socialite, when Jason threatens to get a little rough.

----------


## kiwiliko

Praise. Dexter Soy is fulfilling all our Red Hood ninja wishes.

----------


## G-Potion

> Praise. Dexter Soy is fulfilling all our Red Hood ninja wishes.


He said on Instagram

"My red hood ninja's opponent is almost ready."

Will there be a fight scene?  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

So, Ninja Batman?

----------


## The Whovian

> Praise. Dexter Soy is fulfilling all our Red Hood ninja wishes.


Oooooh, that looks really sweet!

----------


## G-Potion

Imagine. Under the Hood, the Japanese edition.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Imagine. Under the Hood, the Japanese edition.


Back in 2011, when I watched the movie for the first time, I searched for the voice actors in it and accidentally found that in the Japanese Dub, Jason was voiced by Noriaki Sugiyama, Sasuke Uchiha himself  :Embarrassment:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Losing Batman and most of the world to a super intelligent AI working with Brainiac, breaking ties with Kori and Roy and surviving an assassination attempt from his former best friend didn't broke Jason's spirit. A fascist Tim is small beans compared to that, more when Jason wasn't even in Gotham at the time.


And that would be crap writing if they made Jason a person who doesn't suffer from being beat down to where he can't carry on for a time. Showing him needing help to pick himself back up is good writing. It doesn't make him look like a Mary Sue.

----------


## Alycat

I'm fine with current Damian and Jason.  They are a fun combo. I think the relationship that should struggle with is Dick. Cause I agree with Artemis's statement in the annual that they could've been good friends in a different circumstance and want to fix their relationship but don't know how.

I have no clue where Tim will be, but as long as they stop pretending that Jason is Tim's favorite person ever and the brains/brawn routine then I'm fine.

----------


## G-Potion

> Back in 2011, when I watched the movie for the first time, I searched for the voice actors in it and accidentally found that in the Japanese Dub, Jason was voiced by Noriaki Sugiyama, Sasuke Uchiha himself


Aww neat detail!  :EEK!:

----------


## RedBird

> 1-Lobdell for getting Jason on a deeper level than most, his ideas, and direction for him.
> 
> 2-Winnick for a sharper voice and showcase of Jason's skills/cunning.
> 
> 3-Countdown team for the Challengers dynamics (as well as being the brain of that team), taking Jason to the multiverses, JayBat, that Earth where Bruce killed for him and its outcome.
> 
> 4-Greg Pak for making Jason his own man even in the presence of Bats and Supes. Solid voice, has his own agency, a good fighter.
> 
> 5-Lee Bermejo for that one redeeming issue of RW.


This list is pretty spot on for me too. 
And for pretty much the same reasons, years ago I was still missing Winnicks more capable, dark and witty Jason when he left, however Lobdell has really proven his worth by delving into the characters psyche much more than other writers ever dare or even cared to try.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> This list is pretty spot on for me too. 
> And for pretty much the same reasons, years ago I was still missing Winnicks more capable, dark and witty Jason when he left, however Lobdell has really proven his worth by delving into the characters psyche much more than other writers ever dare or even cared to try.


I can agree with this too. Streets Run Red was an awesome story too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And that would be crap writing if they made Jason a person who doesn't suffer from being beat down to where he can't carry on for a time. Showing him needing help to pick himself back up is good writing. It doesn't make him look like a Mary Sue.


Did you read the Future's End issue? Jason was anything but a Mary Sue, and his reactions to all the stuff that was happening around was perfectly in character, unlike the nonsense that Tynion wrote on Detective. Now that was crap writing.

----------


## CPSparkles

This

 

To this

----------


## Rise

> I'm curious to know who are your favorite writters for Jason and who, in your opinion who gets his voice better?
> 
> And when it comes to the other Robin, what kind of dynamic you would like to see?


My kind of question!  :Big Grin: 

Let's first say that I liked his Robin days writers (yes, including pre-crisis writers and Starling). Max Collins especially has wrote one of my favorite comic origin (and my absolute favourite Robin origin in general) and Barr's run was simply extremely fun.

Pre-flashpoint Red Hood:
1-Winnick: his voice for Jason is still till this day unmatched. His Jason was confident, witty, independent and someone that you would definitely be afraid of. 
2-Countdown writers: despite how awful the weekly series was, they somehow managed to hit it with the challengers. Enjoyed their Jason and some of the some of the stories they wrote with him. I hardly tho consider them the best Jason writers, but they did better with him than most during that period. 

New 52
1-Lobdell: no one can deny the great job he did with Jason and that he raised the bar with him. He has shown us a different side of him and has given him a depth that rarely seen in superhero comics. The one thing that I don't like about his take is how much he play with his insecurities which can come off as annoying sometimes. 
2-Tomsai: really enjoyed his Arkham Kinght series. He is the type of writer who can be really overdramatic with his writing which I don't like, but his voice of Jason was actually good.
3-was Pak the one who wrote B/S annual? If he was, then he deserves this spot. 
4-everyone else (King, Morrison, Bermejo, Seeley, Tynion and Snyder): none of them I call bad. Some of their takes on Jason I have really enjoyed and I think they have the potential to deliver something good when they bother to put some efforts.

----------


## MorganL

When did Bermejo write Jason.

----------


## Aahz

> When did Bermejo write Jason.


In the "We are Robin" Issue of "Robin War", it was iirc the issue with the prison break.

----------


## TheCape

> 3-was Pak the one who wrote B/S annual? If he was, then he deserves this spot.


Yes, Pak did it.

----------


## G-Potion

> My kind of question! 
> 
> Let's first say that I liked his Robin days writers (yes, including pre-crisis writers and Starling). Max Collins especially has wrote one of my favorite comic origin (and my absolute favourite Robin origin in general) and Barr's run was simply extremely fun.
> 
> Pre-flashpoint Red Hood:
> 1-Winnick: his voice for Jason is still till this day unmatched. His Jason was confident, witty, independent and someone that you would definitely be afraid of. 
> 2-Countdown writers: despite how awful the weekly series was, they somehow managed to hit it with the challengers. Enjoyed their Jason and some of the some of the stories they wrote with him. I hardly tho consider them the best Jason writers, but they did better with him than most during that period. 
> 
> New 52
> ...


Oh yes Tomasi. I like his Arkham Knight well enough. His Jason voice in B&R is not bad at all, but the situations he put Jason through were hard to swallow.  :Frown: 

By the way, can anyone do a list for the writers of Robin Jason as well?

----------


## TheCape

This are quotes from interview to Winnick make by Comic Vine few months before the reboot when he also talk about Jason's at all his brothers Pre-Flashpoint, i wanted to know your opinion about it and maybe how you would from point A to B if you want to change their relationships using their previous stories as base, to make something that mirrors the current status quos.




> SL: How do you perceive Jason Todd’s relationships with each of the Batkids, from his perspective?
> 
>     JW: Jason. Jason and his relationships. Starting at the bottom, the most recent, I think Jason kind of likes him (Damian).
> 
>     TG: After he tried shooting him…
> 
>     JW: Whatever. Jason is psychotic and a scoundrel and changes as the wind does. He’s a bit nuts, but I think what he likes about Damian is that he fights back, he’s an egotistical aristocrat, a 10-year-old man-child and I can’t imagine Jason doesn’t respect the talking back aspect of him, that he’s a little tough guy.
> 
>     He hates Tim Drake more than any of them because Tim came after him. I never got to tell the Tim Drake-Jason Todd story and I probably won’t in this fashion. Or we’ll see. We’ll see. In my view, he hates Tim without even knowing him, without knowing anything about him or ever fighting him or being alongside him, he hates just the idea of him. He’s the one who came after him.
> ...





> “Jason hates Dick Grayson. He’s the good son; he’s the one that worked out; he’s the one that “Dad” loves best. For me, there’s a philosophy behind Jason and Dick that I haven’t had a chance to play out fully. I don’t think it’s going to play out in this story, because it’s probably not the place for it. But I don’t mind putting the philosophy out there:
> 
>     One thing that haunts Jason is that he thinks if Dick Grayson who was the one that was about to die, Batman would have saved him.
> 
>     And worse, if Dick Grayson was murdered, Jason knows that Batman would have killed Joker. He knows that in his heart.
> 
>     The dark, dark thing for Jason is that he doesn’t feel Bruce’s refusal to take revenge on the Joker is just about Batman’s morals and code that he won’t break. He thinks it’s about him. He thinks that if Dick Grayson was the one who was murdered, Batman would have definitely killed Joker.”

----------


## dietrich

Lobdell is the definitive Jason writer
Winnick his Jason had charm

Pak I enjoyed that annual
Morrison because I like a Jason who isn't working with the family though he's costume was so ugly that took away some of my enjoyment.
Haven't read countdown and was it Bermejo that wrote the Jason making the kids steals because I didn't like that.

----------


## Aahz

> Haven't read countdown and was it Bermejo that wrote the Jason making the kids steals because I didn't like that.


Thats was iirc Tom King.

----------


## dietrich

> Thats was iirc Tom King.


Well that figures.

----------


## G-Potion

> This are quotes from interview to Winnick make by Comic Vine few months before the reboot when he also talk about Jason's at all his brothers Pre-Flashpoint, i wanted to know your opinion about it and maybe how you would from point A to B if you want to change their relationships using their previous stories as base, to make something that mirrors the current status quos.


As much as I praise Winnick's Jason, had he taken on the character at reboot, I have a feeling we would be a long long way from redemption and reconciliationwith the family, if ever. And if what he said here are the things he would do in a story, there's a chance of making Jason too unsympathetic, if not by Winnick himself, then by other writers who only need to read his Jason just a shade differently.

I think Lobdell had the right idea when he, 1. gave Jason All-Caste training and 2. took him out of Gotham. All-Caste for its teaching and recognition of goodness in Jason. I love how in spite of it, Jason was still too obsessed at the time for the lessons to stick, but nonetheless bits and pieces keep coming back to him from time to time, and when he faced the Untitled, it was at that point that he was ready to let go of that negative feeling. I love how All-Caste is basically a life time lesson for him. Even as far as RH/A, Ducra's teaching was still mentioned.

At the same time, taking Jason out of Gotham gave him space and time to live his own life, making friends instead of enemies. Kory and Roy not only care for Jason but gave him a different perspective on family, plus the distance from Gotham dulled his hatred to something more like indifference and later on to something more positive. Basically, this resolution is more realistic than both sides meeting and talking it out in one go, problems solved. This is more intricate than that, and sometimes you just need to step away from it for awhile. 

The last point, since Rebirth, I've realized that in Lobdell's Jason, Robin Jay - who is such a big part of what Jason is - shines through. Winnick's Jason might have lost all that.

----------


## Rise

> As much as I praise Winnick's Jason, had he taken on the character at reboot, I have a feeling we would be a long long way from redemption and reconciliationwith the family, if ever. And if what he said here are the things he would do in a story, there's a chance of making Jason too unsympathetic, if not by Winnick himself, then by other writers who only need to read his Jason just a shade differently.
> 
> I think Lobdell had the right idea when he, 1. gave Jason All-Caste training and 2. took him out of Gotham. All-Caste for its teaching and recognition of goodness in Jason. I love how in spite of it, Jason was still too obsessed at the time for the lessons to stick, but nonetheless bits and pieces keep coming back to him from time to time, and when he faced the Untitled, it was at that point that he was ready to let go of that negative feeling. I love how All-Caste is basically a life time lesson for him. Even as far as RH/A, Ducra's teaching was still mentioned.
> 
> At the same time, taking Jason out of Gotham gave him space and time to live his own life, making friends instead of enemies. Kory and Roy not only care for Jason but gave him a different perspective on family, plus the distance from Gotham dulled his hatred to something more like indifference and later on to something more positive. Basically, this resolution is more realistic than both sides meeting and talking it out in one go, problems solved. This is more intricate than that, and sometimes you just need to step away from it for awhile. 
> 
> The last point, since Rebirth, I've realized that in Lobdell's Jason, Robin Jay - who is such a big part of what Jason is - shines through. Winnick's Jason might have lost all that.


The Outlaws weren't exactly LobdelI's idea. Taking Jason out of Gotham was his tho and All Caste were definitely a good addition. 

And we can't really judge what Winnick would have done with Jason if he was a given a book starring him because the circumstances are going to be different especially with the reboot, but I'm still glad with what we got.

Also, I disagree with your last point. The biggest problem with Red Hood writers is how all of them have ignored Jason's time as Robin besides DITF. I actually wish that annual was a story of Robin Jason than wasting it on Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also, I disagree with your last point. The biggest problem with Red Hood writers is how all of them have ignored Jason's time as Robin besides DITF. I actually wish that annual was a story of Robin Jason than wasting it on Dick.


Still that kindness that Lobdell wrote into Jason has to be a core trait of his since Robin days.
If we're talking about directly writing Robin Jay though, I think Lobdell wrote him quite a bit, and not all of them DITF related. He wrote Robin Jay befriending Speedy which was his own spin, granted. But he also wrote Jason beating up Two-face, while almost slipping about how he thought of Bruce as his dad. He wrote Robin Jay's best friend was a gargoyle , which I take it to reference his lack of Titan friends in his days.

----------


## RedBird

How would you guys generally list all the writers for Jason? Or if thats too much in what boat would you place each of them in, (eg: bad, poor, incapable, great, the best, good etc)

I'm being pretty liberal with this list, and basically counting anyone who has written him for at least one issue and given him a voice and or agency, or speaks of him in a way which is meaningful to the narrative whether positive or negative, so one off lines or passing mentions don’t count but entire narratives that give focus to the character do.

If it is an apparition of Jason than not one that is purposefully meant to be just pain and a trick so this means I’m not counting things like, Batman/Demon or Gotham Knights 16 both in which Jason either is actually a demon hurting Bruce or is a ghostly apparition of Bruces own mind only out to cause him pain.

I'm counting any other productions Jason was in besides BTAS which is disqualified for obvious reasons, and the lego Batman version which is just a skin.

I'm also not counting the one issue of young justice (I cant recall which one) where a pre crisis version of Jason returns but acknowledges he was dead and sits in a room full of 'forgotten' characters, and also I'm not counting Jason in Bruce Wayne: Agents of SHIELD, which featured Jason as a Hydra cyborg, since they are depictions before his resurrection that were outside of his now established characterization, they are playing with a concept of Jason but not any canon characterization that actually existed as of yet so it wasn’t in any way reflective of him. 



Bear in mind I'm not expecting a rating for every single one, just figured that a few of these might jog some memories.



Lobdell

Winnick

Greg Pak (Usually any superman crossovers, eg: Batman/Superman annual and Action Comics appearances)

Snyder 

Lee Bermejo

Starlin

Collins

Wolfman

Valentine

Tomasi

King

Morrison

F. Miller

Geoff Johns

Tony. S. Daniel

Tynion

The countdown crew which was headed by Paul Dini with several writers such as, Palmiotti + McKeever + Bedard + Beechen + Gray.

The Search for Ray Palmer crew Which featured most of the same writers alongside, Burnett + Marz + Johnson + Tocchini

Bennett (Batwoman + Bombshells)

Jones (Nightwing brothers blood)

Bedard(Supergirl)

Beatty (Gotham Knights 43-45)

Fabian Nicieza (Robin 177-183)

Dixon (Nightwing Year one)

Ogle (flashpoint Jason)

Tandall + Von Eeden (Pre crisis Jason; eg Batman 401)

Ostrander + Wein (Legends 2, or the one where Jason get put into hospital but gets the hell back up)

Moench + Colan + Alcala (pre crisis Jason; eg Noctura and Adoption crisis)

Barr+Davis+Neary (post crisis Jason eg; The scarescrow storyline with Bruces biggest fear)

Gerry Conway (pre crisis Jason eg; blonde Jasons origin. Also this guy created him.)

Mike Baron (Batman annual 12)

Dennis O' Neil (LOTDK Issue 100)

Dwyer (Batman Black and White)

Lancaster + Sefton Hill + Ian Ball (BAK writers)

The injustice 2 writing crew

Young Justice writing crew

Baltazar+Aureliani (tiny titans)

Dustin Nguyen (lil Gotham)

Alan Moore (for the man who has everything)

Adam Beechen (Teen titans 47)

Vance (Dead Man: dead again 2)

Gabrych (Detective Comics 790)

Cohn + Mishkin (Blue Devil 19)

Jeph Loeb (Hush)

Kesel (Batman and Superman Worlds Finest 7)

James Bonny (Deathstroke 16)

Pfeifer (Rhato 29 - 31)

Williams (trinity 15)

Kelly + Lanzing (Gotham City Garage)

Steve Niles (Gotham County Line)

Mark Waid (Underworld Unleashed #2)

Joe Keatinge (DC Universe Presents #17)

Christopher Priest (Batman Annual 14)

Robert Greenberger (Batman Annual 13)

Joe Duffy (Batman 413)

Ron Marz (Convergence: Batman & Robin)


I have added notes to the writers whose work may be obscure or have only written one event for the character.

If there are any writers I have missed please let me know so I can add them.  :Smile: 

(and thanks for all the help thus far)

----------


## DamianBane

Wasn't Jense Ackles Jason Todd in a animated movie?

----------


## G-Potion

> The Outlaws weren't exactly LobdelI's idea.


Didn't say it was though. Regardless of whom DC assigned as his team members though, I still believe Lobdell would write it in a way that makes Jason learn from them and gain a different perspective. There was an interview where Lobdell shared his own experience about how drastically his initial opinion of a person changed after he's interacted with them. I believe that is the direction he would take in team book.

----------


## G-Potion

> Wasn't Jense Ackles Jason Todd in a animated movie?


Yeah he was in Under the Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

Edited: Sorry double posted.

----------


## Rise

> Still that kindness that Lobdell wrote into Jason has to be a core trait of his since Robin days.
> If we're talking about directly writing Robin Jay though, I think Lobdell wrote him quite a bit, and not all of them DITF related. He wrote Robin Jay befriending Speedy which was his own creation, granted. But he also wrote Jason beating up Two-face, while almost slipping about how he thought of Bruce as his dad. He wrote Robin Jay's best friend was a gargoyle , which I take it to reference his lack of Titan friends in his days.


Jason befriending Roy as kid was more of Tynion's idea (which was originally from the 80s NTT), but Lobdell's take was good as a conclusion to RH/A.

Wasn't big fan of Jason almost beating Two-face for Batman and liked the 80s version by Collins better where Jason was pissed off at Harvey for killing his own father, but he still felt sorry for him and decided to let go of the idea of revenge which was a better showing of kindness and maturity that made Batman proud.

Having gargoyle as Jason's friend was both sad and precious, but it doesn't add up because what about Gabby and his blonde friend?

----------


## G-Potion

> How would you guys generally list all the writers for Jason? Or if thats too much in what boat would you place each of them in, (eg: bad, poor, incapable, great, the best, good etc)


Wow that's an exhaustive list, mate! I need awhile to read through, but the effort is appreciated!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

> Wow that's an exhaustive list, mate! I need awhile to read through, but the effort is appreciated!


Honestly they were all off the top of my head :P I hadn't realised just how much of Jasons appearances I had been remembering.
Just finding the writer names of the more obscure appearances took a while.

----------


## Rise

> Barr+Davis+Neary (pre crisis Jason eg; The scarescrow storyline with Bruces biggest fear)


Just to correct you, Barr's run was actually post crisis and the writer of Trinity current arc is Rob Williams.

----------


## G-Potion

> Having gargoyle as Jason's friend was both sad and precious, but it doesn't add up because what about Gabby and his blonde friend?


Having a memory lapse at the moment. Can't remember the blonde friend you mentioned.  :Frown: 

About Gabby, I can think of several scenarios. Lobdell forgot. Or because of Rebirth it's unclear if she's still in. Or she wasn't really Jason's friend from his pov, they might not spend time together doing what friends were doing but still she's someone he's internally grateful for for her effort in cheering him up when he first came to that community place, I forgot what it's called. 

If he did referred to her as his childhood friend in RH/A though, disregard what I said.

----------


## RedBird

> Just to correct you, Barr's run was actually post crisis and the writer of Trinity current arc is Rob Williams.


Cheers, changed it, though I honestly thought issues like Batman 574 was pre crisis.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> As much as I praise Winnick's Jason, had he taken on the character at reboot, I have a feeling we would be a long long way from redemption and reconciliationwith the family, if ever. And if what he said here are the things he would do in a story, there's a chance of making Jason too unsympathetic, if not by Winnick himself, then by other writers who only need to read his Jason just a shade differently.
> 
> I think Lobdell had the right idea when he, 1. gave Jason All-Caste training and 2. took him out of Gotham. All-Caste for its teaching and recognition of goodness in Jason. I love how in spite of it, Jason was still too obsessed at the time for the lessons to stick, but nonetheless bits and pieces keep coming back to him from time to time, and when he faced the Untitled, it was at that point that he was ready to let go of that negative feeling. I love how All-Caste is basically a life time lesson for him. Even as far as RH/A, Ducra's teaching was still mentioned.
> 
> At the same time, taking Jason out of Gotham gave him space and time to live his own life, making friends instead of enemies. Kory and Roy not only care for Jason but gave him a different perspective on family, plus the distance from Gotham dulled his hatred to something more like indifference and later on to something more positive. Basically, this resolution is more realistic than both sides meeting and talking it out in one go, problems solved. This is more intricate than that, and sometimes you just need to step away from it for awhile. 
> 
> The last point, since Rebirth, I've realized that in Lobdell's Jason, Robin Jay - who is such a big part of what Jason is - shines through. Winnick's Jason might have lost all that.


Something to keep in mind with Winnick is that he always saw Jason as a villain. A very charming one but a villain nonetheless. 

Another problem of his is that Winnick never really tried to develop Jason beyond the original URTH depiction. Look at all of Winnick's output with Jason and he always write him as a slightly unhinged vigilante with little regard for the bat family besides Batman who seemingly can't stop complaining about.




> The Outlaws weren't exactly Lobdell's idea. Taking Jason out of Gotham was his tho and All Caste were definitely a good addition. 
> 
> And we can't really judge what Winnick would have done with Jason if he was a given a book starring him because the circumstances are going to be different especially with the reboot, but I'm still glad with what we got.
> 
> Also, I disagree with your last point. The biggest problem with Red Hood writers is how all of them have ignored Jason's time as Robin besides DITF. I actually wish that annual was a story of Robin Jason than wasting it on Dick.


The Outlaws as we know them is totally Lobdell's brainchild, editorial only decided the line up but everything afterwards is Lobdell's. i had the chance of speaking with Lobdell himself a couple of years back and he told me that RHATO was originally meant for Winnick until he turned up his pitch, from the little Lobdell told me, Winnick's Outlaws would've been very different, grim, violent, edgy. They showed up the pitch to Lobdell and he came with the Butch & Sundance parallels on the spot and he gave a few random thoughts about it. Move forward a couple of days later and Lobdell gets a call from editorial telling him the book was his.

----------


## G-Potion

> Cheers, changed it, though I honestly thought issues like Batman 574 was pre crisis.


Hey Red, let's add Will Pfeifer. He wrote a few issues of RHATO v1, from 29 to 31, I think.

----------


## RedBird

> The Outlaws as we know them is totally Lobdell's brainchild, editorial only decided the line up but everything afterwards is Lobdell's. i had the chance of speaking with Lobdell himself a couple of years back and he told me that RHATO was originally meant for Winnick until he turned up his pitch, from the little Lobdell told me, Winnick's Outlaws would've been very different, grim, violent, edgy. They showed up the pitch to Lobdell and he came with the Butch & Sundance parallels on the spot and he gave a few random thoughts about it. Move forward a couple of days later and Lobdell gets a call from editorial telling him the book was his.


I'm loving Lobdells work but I'm not gonna lie, I kinda would have also loved something from Winnick, at least at the start of new52.

----------


## Rise

> Having a memory lapse at the moment. Can't remember the blonde friend you mentioned. 
> 
> About Gabby, I can think of several scenarios. Lobdell forgot. Or because of Rebirth it's unclear if she's still in. Or she wasn't really Jason's friend from his pov, they might not spend time together doing what friends were doing but still she's someone he's internally grateful for for her effort in cheering him up when he first came to that community place, I forgot what it's called. 
> 
> If he did referred to her as his childhood friend in RH/A though, disregard what I said.


That kid Jason used to hang out with in the zero hour issue. 

And Gabby seemed to matter enough to him that he actually remembered her after all years and used to get into fights for her sake.

Even if Jason didn't consider them as friends, he still didn't exactly had no one besides his gargoyle as kid.




> Cheers, changed it, though I honestly thought issues like Batman 574 was pre crisis.


Barr's Detective run for sure happened in post crisis and even acknowledged his new origin.

----------


## G-Potion

> The Outlaws as we know them is totally Lobdell's brainchild, editorial only decided the line up but everything afterwards is Lobdell's. i had the chance of speaking with Lobdell himself a couple of years back and he told me that RHATO was originally meant for Winnick until he turned up his pitch, from the little Lobdell told me, Winnick's Outlaws would've been very different, grim, violent, edgy. They showed up the pitch to Lobdell and he came with the Butch & Sundance parallels on the spot and he gave a few random thoughts about it. Move forward a couple of days later and Lobdell gets a call from editorial telling him the book was his.


Hey, thanks Dark. Very cool info!

----------


## RedBird

> Hey Red, let's add Will Pfeifer. He wrote a few issues of RHATO v1, from 29 to 31, I think.


I knew I was missing something from new52, cheers!

----------


## G-Potion

> I knew I was missing something from new52, cheers!


Also Collin Kelly, Jackson Lanzing for Gotham City Garage if they should count and are not in there already.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Also Collin Kelly, Jackson Lanzing for Gotham City Garage if they should count and are not in there already.


Oh my gosh, you're right! Why are the recent ones tripping me up XD

----------


## Rise

> Something to keep in mind with Winnick is that he always saw Jason as a villain. A very charming one but a villain nonetheless. 
> 
> Another problem of his is that Winnick never really tried to develop Jason beyond the original URTH depiction. Look at all of Winnick's output with Jason and he always write him as a slightly unhinged vigilante with little regard for the bat family besides Batman who seemingly can't stop complaining about.


Because he never got the chance to write Jason beside the few guest starring here and there and the mini series which was set before UTRH. How exactly you except him to develop him with the few chances he got with him?




> The Outlaws as we know them is totally Lobdell's brainchild, editorial only decided the line up but everything afterwards is Lobdell's. i had the chance of speaking with Lobdell himself a couple of years back and he told me that RHATO was originally meant for Winnick until he turned up his pitch, from the little Lobdell told me, Winnick's Outlaws would've been very different, grim, violent, edgy. They showed up the pitch to Lobdell and he came with the Butch & Sundance parallels on the spot and he gave a few random thoughts about it. Move forward a couple of days later and Lobdell gets a call from editorial telling him the book was his


I mean the concept of the Oulaws wasn't his and how they later turn out obviously belong to whoever got them.

And man, what a missed opportunity. It would have been interesting if Winnick take over instead of Tynion because I wouldn't mind  seeing a grim take on the outlaws.

----------


## EMarie

> That kid Jason used to hang out with in the zero hour issue. 
> 
> And Gabby seemed to matter enough to him that he actually remembered her after all years and used to get into fights for her sake.
> 
> Even if Jason didn't consider them as friends, he still didn't exactly had no one besides his gargoyle as kid.


You mean year zero? That would be Tynion's character Chris and I never bought the idea that they were friends. Collins set up the idea of Jason's morals and how he wouldn't be bullied into doing things he didn't agree with. Which is exactly what Chris did. It never made any sense that Jason would hang out with him and let himself be pushed around into doing shady things he didn't agree with.

Jason remembered Gabby because she was kind to him. They both see the past differently. He thinks she was the one doing all the good and she corrects him saying he did defend her. Gabby might see them as friends but Jason didn't seem to think they were that close.

The gargoyle was shown when he was Robin. Jason had no one to interact with his age that he could vent to. Even if we count old canon with his pen pal Kid Devil they didn't see each other much. Bruce and him had communication problems. Dick and him had a strained relationship. It's iffy how close he was to Roy since Roy doesn't seem aware of what Jason's really like at the start of RHATO. Plus he probably had his own problems around this time.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because he never got the chance to write Jason beside the few guest starring here and there and the mini series which was set before UTRH. How exactly you except him to develop him with the few chances he got with him?


See, the thing is that Winnick wrote all of those appearances, and small as it might've been, there was nothing stopping him for giving _his_ take of Jason a character arc. A full fledged series would've been nice but he still had the chance of developing his vision of Jason on those chances he had. And he always, always wrote Jason the same: bitter, obsessed with proving Batman was wrong, violent, snarky, broody; in short, with no real character development to speak of. Ron Marz only wrote Jason on two issues during Convergence and he developed Jason far more than Winnick ever did.




> And man, what a missed opportunity. It would have been interesting if Winnick take over instead of Tynion because I wouldn't mind seeing a grim take on the outlaws.


It would not have worked, his take was far too different to Lobdell's to give any sort of continuity.

----------


## Rise

> You mean year zero? That would be Tynion's character Chris and I never bought the idea that they were friends. Collins set up the idea of Jason's morals and how he wouldn't be bullied into doing things he didn't agree with. Which is exactly what Chris did. It never made any sense that Jason would hang out with him and let himself be pushed around into doing shady things he didn't agree with.
> 
> Jason remembered Gabby because she was kind to him. They both see the past differently. He thinks she was the one doing all the good and she corrects him saying he did defend her. Gabby might see them as friends but Jason didn't seem to think they were that close.
> 
> The gargoyle was shown when he was Robin. Jason had no one to interact with his age that he could vent to. Even if we count old canon with his pen pal Kid Devil they didn't see each other much. Bruce and him had communication problems. Dick and him had a strained relationship. It's iffy how close he was to Roy since Roy doesn't seem aware of what Jason's really like at the start of RHATO. Plus he probably had his own problems around this time.


Oh yeah, Chris! I don't know why I keep forgetting his name. 

And did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin story.

And whether they were close friends or not, she still a living person compared to the gargoyle and seem like she cared about him. So, he actually had someone.

The gargoyle was supposedly his friend before he become Robin from Batman's comment and as Robin he had Roy which Lobdell established in RH/A. If we are going to acknowledge pre-n52 as well, he had Kid devil like you mentioned, Alfred who Jason get along pretty well with, Bruce since they had a pretty good relationship before he died and Bullock who Jason used to hang out with. He wasn't exactly alone except that he had hard time getting friends in school.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh my gosh, you're right! Why are the recent ones tripping me up XD


Oh hey, since Dark just mentioned it, Ron Marz also wrote Convergence: Batman & Robin.

----------


## G-Potion

> The gargoyle was supposedly his friend before he become Robin from Batman's comment and as Robin he had Roy which Lobdell established in RH/A. If going to acknowledge pre-n52, he had Kid devil like you mentioned, Alfred who Jason get along pretty well with, Bruce since they had a pretty good relationship before he died and Bullock who Jason used to hang out with. He wasn't exactly alone except that he had hard time getting friends in school.


I always have the impression that the gargoyle was his friend when he's Robin.

----------


## Rise

> .....


And how can any writer be capable of developing a guest character they only can have them for issue or two? Don't be unfair, Dark.

----------


## Rise

> I always have the impression that the gargoyle was his friend when he's Robin.


Nope, it was before. Remember the flashback in issue 6 where it was Jason's first day as Robin and Batman was able to find him because he is the only kid he know who has a favourite gargoyle?

----------


## G-Potion

To be fair though, Winnick last work on Batman & Robin did shift the direction for Jason a bit, with him giving himself up to save Scarlett and the subsequent teamup with Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nope, it was before. Remember the flashback in issue 6 where it was Jason's first day as Robin and Batman was able to find him because he is the only kid he know who has a favourite gargoyle?


What if it was a thing that developed since Bruce took him in, but before officially giving him the suit? I just find it strange that both times the gargoyle got mentioned, in #6 and #8, Jason was always in his Robin gear.

----------


## Aahz

> Help (will edit later)
> I cant quite recall which comics these were from, does anyone know so that I can add them?
> 
> 1)	Jason is resurrected as a zombie Robin and helps Bruce in a little quest before walking back into the afterlife (he is featured with a skeletal face)
> 
> 2)	Theres also another story where some villain is trying to make a bargain with Bruce in exchange to bring Jason back and Bruce refuses but goes crying after the ghost of Jason regardless. (This one doesn't really count but I would like to know the title regardless)
> 
> 3) Can't recall who wrote the rhato appearence in Superman where they were fighting for Supes and where they are saving children.
> 
> 4) The rhato appearence which was featured in a book for Arsenal where he returns home to them on the couch


1)Gotham County Line (Steve Niles)

2)Underworld Unleashed #2 (Mark Waid)

3) don't know

4) DC Universe Presents #17 (Joe Keatinge)

You could also count:
Christopher Priest (Batman Annual 14)
Robert Greenberger (Batman Annual 13)
Joe Duffy (Batman 413)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Something to keep in mind with Winnick is that he always saw Jason as a villain. A very charming one but a villain nonetheless.


I really never had a problem with Winnick's take on Jason. What I DID have a problem with was that the idea was never properly developed because there was no book in which to do that. You can't really develop a direction for a character if that character lacks appearances.




> Another problem of his is that Winnick never really tried to develop Jason beyond the original URTH depiction. Look at all of Winnick's output with Jason and he always write him as a slightly unhinged vigilante with little regard for the bat family besides Batman who seemingly can't stop complaining about.


To be fair he never had the opportunity to do much of anything development-wise because of Jason's lack of appearances after UTRH. IF that book had been a stepping stone to a solo title or to regular appearances then Winnick would have likely had the chance to develop the character more. Unfortunately, that never happened so instead the character remained stuck in that mode until it became a one-dimensional portrayal and a dead end. 




> The Outlaws as we know them is totally Lobdell's brainchild, editorial only decided the line up but everything afterwards is Lobdell's. i had the chance of speaking with Lobdell himself a couple of years back and he told me that RHATO was originally meant for Winnick until he turned up his pitch, from the little Lobdell told me, Winnick's Outlaws would've been very different, grim, violent, edgy. They showed up the pitch to Lobdell and he came with the Butch & Sundance parallels on the spot and he gave a few random thoughts about it. Move forward a couple of days later and Lobdell gets a call from editorial telling him the book was his.


Thanks for that information. The ending of The Streets Run Red did make me wonder if Winnick was going to be given a shot at a title starring Jason at some point and this confirms that he would have. Even so I'm glad they went with Lobdell instead. I would have liked a "grim, violent and edgy' Jason Todd book if it had happened immediately after _UTRH_ and _Lost Days_ were published but as time passed I started to hate that depiction of the character and I think I would have hated a book that carried on that depiction.

----------


## TheCape

> To be fair though, Winnick last work on Batman & Robin did shift the direction for Jason a bit, with him giving himself up to save Scarlett and the subsequent teamup with Dick.


To be completly fair with Winnick, he has to do some damage control after Jason being despicted with multiple personalities in every apperance outside of him.

At the end of the day, Winnick's Jason is Winnick's Jason a characther that nobody in DC seemed to understand and went about it in the most simplistic possible way. I never was a fan of Lodbell's first run, but what he did for Todd was probably for the best in the long term.

----------


## G-Potion

> 3) Can't recall who wrote the rhato appearence in Superman where they were fighting for Supes and where they are saving children.


Found it. Action Comics #34 by Greg Pak. He also used the team in Action Comics Annual #3.

----------


## JasonTodd428

My top five writers for Jason Todd:

1. Lobdell
2. The Countdown Crew
3. Pak
4. Collins 
5. Winnick

----------


## G-Potion

> To be completly fair with Winnick, he has to do some damage control after Jason being despicted with multiple personalities in every apperance outside of him.
> 
> At the end of the day, Winnick's Jason is Winnick's Jason a characther that nobody in DC seemed to understand and went about it in the most simplistic possible way. I never was a fan of Lodbell's first run, but what he did for the Todd was probably for the best in the long term.


Regarding Winnick, same. As I said in my reply to your question, I had more fear of other writers interpreting Winnick's Jason than Winnick potentially making Jason unsympathetic. Gems like Nightwing Brothers in Blood and BFTC are something we don't ever need again.

----------


## Rise

> What if it was a thing that developed since Bruce took him in, but before officially giving him the suit? I just find it strange that both times the gargoyle got mentioned, in #6 and #8, Jason was always in his Robin gear.


Jason said in issue 8 that the gargoyle was his only friend _growing up_ and he hardly grow up under Bruce's care since he was Robin for a very short time in n52 before he died. 

Unless they expanded his time as Robin in Rebirth (which I hope they did), then you might be right. Tho, it still doesn't make sense because he had Roy even if he didn't spend much time with and I honestly think the whole thing was done just to show how important Artemis and Bizarro to him which was unnecessary.

----------


## RedBird

> 1)Gotham County Line (Steve Niles)
> 
> 2)Underworld Unleashed #2 (Mark Waid)
> 
> 3) don't know
> 
> 4) DC Universe Presents #17 (Joe Keatinge)
> 
> You could also count:
> ...


Cheers Aahz, I was pulling my hair trying to recall those ones, and thanks for the extras too, will add them to the list.  :Smile: 




> Found it. Action Comics #34 by Greg Pak. He also used the team in Action Comics Annual #3.


Oh cool, I suspected it was Pak but couldnt recall the issue number.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason said in issue 8 that the gargoyle was his only friend _growing up_ and he hardly grow up under Bruce's care since he was Robin for a very short time in n52 before he died. 
> 
> Unless they expanded his time as Robin in Rebirth (which I hope they did), then you might be right. Tho, it still doesn't make sense because he had Roy even if he didn't spend much time with and I honestly think the whole thing was done just to show how important Artemis and Bizarro to him which was unnecessary.


Could be. However taking into consideration that he was talking to Artemis, whom he has only known for a very short time, it's possible that Jason was simplyfing much of his story so that he got the point across without bothering her with all the facts.

I hope we'll get the Rebirth summary of his relationship with Roy soon. It does bother me a bit to see Roy not being mentioned in a more enthusiastic way but it could be chalked up as topic Jason finds hard to talk about, given the breakup. We'll see.

Then again. Roy hardly says anything about Jason so far. I want this to be a two-way thing.

----------


## RedBird

> Then again. Roy hardly says anything about Jason so far. I want this to be a two-way thing.


I dropped 'Titans' quicker than hot coal, so I'm honestly out of the loop, has Roy said anything about Jason?

----------


## TheCape

> I dropped 'Titans' quicker than hot coal, so I'm honestly out of the loop, has Roy said anything about Jason?


No, not at all and i have read the whole run so far

----------


## G-Potion

> I dropped 'Titans' quicker than hot coal, so I'm honestly out of the loop, has Roy said anything about Jason?


I dropped it pretty quick too so I don't know for sure. I think if he does then at least I'd see something on tumblr but so far, nada.

----------


## RedBird

> No, not at all.


Well then no need for Jason to get hung up on exes as far as I'm concerned, besides Jason has already acknowledged Roy at least twice, he's not ignoring their friendship but they aren't in a book together anymore so theres no need to really push it any further than that, its best the focus stays on Biz and Artemis and their relationship with Jason.

----------


## RedBird

> I dropped it pretty quick too so I don't know for sure. I think if he does then at least I'd see something on tumblr but so far, nada.


If there was honestly more of a mutual sort of longing for what they both lost, I would love to see Lobdell tackle an old friendship as a focal point, but clearly since Jason has been the one talking of Roy (again, at least twice) it much too one sided and if thats the case then I would rather not see Jason pining after an old friend when his current ones need him right now.

----------


## SpentShrimp

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;3162339]Something to keep in mind with Winnick is that he always saw Jason as a villain. A very charming one but a villain nonetheless.]

Another problem of his is that Winnick never really tried to develop Jason beyond the original URTH depiction. Look at all of Winnick's output with Jason and he always write him as a slightly unhinged vigilante with little regard for the bat family besides Batman who seemingly can't stop complaining about.



Well that can also be blamed on editorial not giving Winnick a shot at a Jason solo to develop him. 

And yes, I did read the Future's End one-shot. To reply to your previous pose; I would say that it works well as a short glimpse into Jason's possible future. For him to lose the will to carry on makes him a lot more human. You can only handle so much, especially the stuff he's been through, and carry on by yourself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> And how can any writer be capable of developing a guest character they only can have them for issue or two? Don't be unfair, Dark.


Ask Marz, he did it with Convergence.

And Winnick wrote Jason for more than just two issues: Outsiders #44-#46, Outsiders Annual#1, Green Arrow #69-#72, B&R #23-25, Lost Days, Batman Annual #25. Plenty of breathing room to develop his vision of Jason.

----------


## Rise

> ....





> ...


That not pinning since Jason doesn't acknowledge Roy much either and all over him with Bizarro being his bestie now (actually, both Roy and Kory situation is pretty pathetic in Rebirth that I have stopped caring about them). Just don't pretend that Jason was so "lonely" and had no one before meeting his new teammates just to show how they "rocked" his "lonely" life.

The point of the discussion originally is how no red hood writer bother themselves in acknowledging his time as Robin because there are many stories they can refer or retold besides DITF which bring up another point, stop limiting Jason's relationships to whoever he currently team up with. Bring up his old relationships and acknowledge them like Gabby, Chris, Essence, Amall or even Isapel. What about his relationships pre-flashpoint? Like Natalia, Bolluck or that girl he used to have a crush on? Stop overplaying Jason's loneliness because he had people and you don't need to downplay them in favour of his new teammates nor make his life more tragic than it already is.

I also hope with upcoming Willis arc that Lobdell will clear the Todd's family situation. Is Catherine his mother or did he bring back Sheila back in the continuity? And please don't turn Willis into some evil dude just to show how better Bruce is because it's unneeded and it will be good for Jason to establish a history away from Batman.

----------


## Rise

> Ask Marz, he did it with Convergence.
> 
> And Winnick wrote Jason for more than just two issues: Outsiders #44-#46, Outsiders Annual#1, Green Arrow #69-#72, B&R #23-25, Lost Days, Batman Annual #25. Plenty of breathing room to develop his vision of Jason.


If you consider what Marz did a "development", then why you don't treat what Winick did with him in streets run red as a development too? Like I said, stop being unfair. 

And come on now, you can't really not realize how you keep proving my point. All of you mentioned was just two to three issues expect RHLSD (which was set BEFORE UTRH) where Jason appeared as a GUEST CHARACTER in someone else book, how can winnick develop him when can't do a full arc with him and keep being changed by different writers?

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, i don't think that Marz develop him as much as he just... write him differently, it has been some time since i read that mini, but i remenber finding Jason change of heart very sudden.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Yeah, but how far apart were those issues in publication history? Somebody can write 30 issues of a single character, but if it's scattered throughout a long period of time, with other writers having a more consistent period of writing said character, or nobody writing that character at all, the potential for character growth is heavily hindered.

Plus, Winnick's writing with Jason in the Green Arrow issues were really good.

----------


## magpieM

I started reading RHATO and related comics not long ago. It's really great to see those discussions! 

My first impression of Jason Todd was all from the movie UTRH that I watched a year ago. Before that I didn't care about DC or Marvel at all. I still remember the emotional turmoil the movie gave me. It felt like strong agony and anger filling in my chest that I didn't know how to release. Winnick really did a great job to present such an overwhelming character. And I also read that interview that Winnick talking about Jason's view of Bruce, Dick, Tim and Damian. Those "dark, dark" feelings Jason held towards other batfam at that time was so "lively" and "relatable" based on my personal experience in job and family. It feels like the Jason in UTRH is standing right in front of me again just reading Winnick's interview without any actual graphic panels.

Yes Lobdell did a great job to develop this character in long term. The current Dark Trinity is absolutely amazing! But, ... I don't know how to put this. Something is lacking. Whenever I re-watch UTRH or re-read Winnick's interview, I feel being swallowed again by this character, his emotions and morality. That's the power of Winnick's writing.

----------


## RedBird

> That not pinning since Jason doesn't acknowledge Roy much either and all over him with Bizarro being his bestie now (actually, both Roy and Kory situation is pretty pathetic in Rebirth that I have stopped caring about them). Just don't pretend that Jason was so "lonely" and had no one before meeting his new teammates just to show how they "rocked" his "lonely" life.
> 
> The point of the discussion originally is how no red hood writer bother themselves in acknowledging his time as Robin because there are many stories they can refer or retold besides DITF which bring up another point, stop limiting Jason's relationships to whoever he currently team up with. Bring up his old relationships and acknowledge them like Gabby, Chris, Essence, Amall or even Isapel. What about his relationships pre-flashpoint? Like Natalia, Bolluck or that girl he used to have a crush on? Stop overplaying Jason's loneliness because he had people and you don't need to downplay them in favour of his new teammates nor make his life more tragic than it already is.
> 
> I also hope with upcoming Willis arc that Lobdell will clear the Todd's family situation. Is Catherine his mother or did he bring back Sheila back in the continuity? And please don't turn Willis into some evil dude just to show how better Bruce is because it's unneeded and it will be good for Jason to establish a history away from Batman.


Never said he was pinning.

I said I wouldnt want that as a direction.

Especially when the relationship doesnt have a mutual connection anymore.

Never said that Jasons relationships should be limited either, I literally said I would love Lobdell to tackle this friendship, but only if we see some development from Roy as well. 

Wasn't overplaying his loneliness either, just saying that the main focus should remain on the current team, this book is still pretty young after all. Besides, the book has given time to characters outside of the team that have meaning to Jason, like Bruce and Dick and even Faye, and its been great, and it was all done without taking the focus off of the main cast.

Also I love that Lobdell acknowledges Jasons past as Robin.

I literally have no idea where you are pulling these assumptions and accusations from.

----------


## Rise

I wasn't talking about you (or throwing accusations), I was criticising what Lobdell was doing. I know my English isn't perfect, but I thought I was clear that I'm talking about THE WRITER.

----------


## RedBird

> I wasn't talking about you (or throwing accusations), I was criticising what Lobdell was doing. I know my English isn't perfect, but I thought I was clear that I'm talking about THE WRITER.


Thanks, that clears it up. 

No offense but since you quoted me, I had to assume it was a response TO me, good to know that wasnt your intention cause I was pretty damn confused.

----------


## Rise

> I started reading RHATO and related comics not long ago. It's really great to see those discussions! 
> 
> My first impression of Jason Todd was all from the movie UTRH that I watched a year ago. Before that I didn't care about DC or Marvel at all. I still remember the emotional turmoil the movie gave me. It felt like strong agony and anger filling in my chest that I didn't know how to release. Winnick really did a great job to present such an overwhelming character. And I also read that interview that Winnick talking about Jason's view of Bruce, Dick, Tim and Damian. Those "dark, dark" feelings Jason held towards other batfam at that time was so "lively" and "relatable" based on my personal experience in job and family. It feels like the Jason in UTRH is standing right in front of my again just reading Winnick's interview without any actual graphic panels.
> 
> Yes Lobdell did a great job to develop this character in long term. The current Dark Trinity is absolutely amazing! But, ... I don't know how to put this. Something is lacking. Whenever I re-watch UTRH or re-read Winnick's interview, I feel being swallowed again by this character, his emotions and morality. That's the power of Winnick's writing.


Winnick has a certain voice for Jason that still unmatched. I can't deny that I sometimes miss his Jason.

I treat Lobdell's Jason as a different version of him which I really like a lot, I just wish his Jason become more confident instead of always selling himself short.




> Thanks, that clears it up. 
> 
> No offense but since you quoted me, I had to assume it was a response TO me, good to that wasnt your intension cause I was pretty damn confused.


None taken and sorry if I did. I qouted you and G as a point for Jason being over Roy. Everything else is a criticism from me about some of the choices Lobdell did which I don't like.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If you consider what Marz did a "development", then why you don't treat what Winick did with him in streets run red as a development too? Like I said, stop being unfair.


Streets Run Red didn't developed Jason's character at all. He was just an angsty badass that by plot contrivances was able to remain ahead of everyone's else and who still had an enormous  chip on his shoulder. Marz's Jason on the other hand actually mellowed out and was able to put his differences aside and being willing to work with Batman with no other motives underneath.




> And come on now, you can't really not realize how you keep proving my point. All of you mentioned was just two to three issues expect RHLSD (which was set BEFORE UTRH) where Jason appeared as a GUEST CHARACTER in someone else book, how can winnick develop him when can't do a full arc with him and keep being changed by different writers?


Treat every guest appearance as part of an ongoing story instead of standalone stories, make the character grow as consequence of those very same stories. The result might be a weaker character arc but is still a character arc nonetheless, and you don't need 20 issues to do that. When writers care for the characters doing something like this is simple enough. Alan Grant developed an entire character for Lonnie Machin on his appearances as antagonist on the Batman books back on the 90's just to name an example.

----------


## magpieM

I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).

I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule? 

Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce. 

We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. _But what is he believing now?_ When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.

Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.

One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.

----------


## Alycat

As much as I liked Winick I always cringe thinking about some of his decisions and subtle stuff he wanted . Like the child prostitution and implying Jason had some attraction towards Bruce. That can stay in the toilet with Devin Grayson's ideas.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Streets Run Red didn't developed Jason's character at all. He was just an angsty badass that by plot contrivances was able to remain ahead of everyone's else and who still had an enormous  chip on his shoulder. Marz's Jason on the other hand actually mellowed out and was able to put his differences aside and being willing to work with Batman with no other motives underneath.
> 
> 
> 
> Treat every guest appearance as part of an ongoing story instead of standalone stories, make the character grow as consequence of those very same stories. The result might be a weaker character arc but is still a character arc nonetheless, and you don't need 20 issues to do that. When writers care for the characters doing something like this is simple enough. Alan Grant developed an entire character for Lonnie Machin on his appearances as antagonist on the Batman books back on the 90's just to name an example.


You are in some serious denial when it comes to anybody but the All Mighty Lobdell writing Jason.

----------


## Rise

> As much as I liked Winick I always cringe thinking about some of his decisions and subtle stuff he wanted . Like the child prostitution and implying Jason had some attraction towards Bruce. That can stay in the toilet with Devin Grayson's ideas.


A what? Don't mix tumblr messed up headcanons with actual canon because Winnick never intended that.

And don't bring GA as proof because Jason never meant what some people for some reason wrongly thought.

----------


## Alycat

> A what? Don't treat tumblr messed up headcanons with actual canon because Winnick never intended that.
> 
> And don't bring GA as proof because Jason never meant what some people for some reason wrongly thought.


I didn't need Tumblr for that, what other implication and from BotC what other secret could it be? The latter wasn't Winick but man the implication was there.

----------


## Aahz

Wondering if Willis will become more similar to this.

Lost Years.jpg

----------


## magpieM

> As much as I liked Winick I always cringe thinking about some of his decisions and subtle stuff he wanted . Like the child prostitution and implying Jason had some attraction towards Bruce. That can stay in the toilet with Devin Grayson's ideas.


Was that from BotC? Actually it made Bruce look really bad. He couldn't make it to discuss it with Jason face to face in a personal conversation. Instead he used hologram after his death to openly reveal Jason's "dark secret" in front of everyone. That's really... bad...

----------


## Rise

That both him and Mia were homeless kids who done things they weren't proud of. Jason used to steal and it something he wasn't happy about and Mia sold her body. Nowhere it was hinted whatever you thought of.

And I don't care about what Daniel intended or didn't. His story was pretty terrible and has nothing to do with Winnick or anyone else for that matter.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A what? Don't mix tumblr messed up headcanons with actual canon because Winnick never intended that.
> 
> And don't bring GA as proof because Jason never meant what some people for some reason wrongly thought.


The only thing I can remember was when Winnick was asked if Jason was bisexual 





> SL: Is he (Jason) a little bisexual? 
> 
> JW: That was the first time we’ve ever saw him mess around with anybody. Truth is, I haven’t really thought about it. I think about Jason in a lot of other ways. You might put him in bed, I don’t do that. That was the only time I thought about him having sex because she wanted to. 
> 
> SL: Oh, I put him in bed! No, really —
> 
> JW: I’m totally dodging the question. This is me ducking the question. There’s things we can talk about and there’s things we can’t talk about, there’s things that DC Comics doesn’t like me talking about and they don’t like us talking about things like that, so I don’t want to answer that, thank you.


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/podca...01-11/1600-92/

----------


## Alycat

Even if it wasn't the intent, it's how it came across. Of course both those stories were terrible, but people didn't pick up the idea from nowhere.

----------


## TheCape

Still, is quite different if what Devin Grayson did (or Seely for that matter).

----------


## Rise

I don't know what the point you trying to make by quoting that interview Dark since I know about it. It has nothing to do with anything except Winnick didn't want to get himself in any unnecessary troubles because we live in a world where confirming a some random character is straight that means you are bigot which I unfortunately has seen people harassing others over this in social media. Unless he flat out admitted that he did intend to do that like Devin admitted that Dick was supposedly bi, you can't really use this as a proof.

And to Alycat, it didn't come across like that to me and many others.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't know what the point you trying to make by quoting that interview Dark since I know about it. It has nothing to do with anything except Winnick didn't want to get himself in any unnecessary troubles because we live in a world where confirming a some random character is straight that means you are bigot which I unfortunately has seen people harassing others over this in social media. Unless he flat out admitted that he did intend to do that like Devin admitted that Dick was supposedly bi, you can't really use this as a proof.
> 
> And to Alycat, it didn't come across like that to me and many others.


Only that is the only time Winnick has touched the topic of Jason's sexuality.

----------


## Rise

> Only that is the only time Winnick has touched the topic of Jason's sexuality.


Funny thing, I remember someone saying that there's interview with Winnick confirmed Jason is bi, but still till this day can't prove it

----------


## Alycat

I didn't say it was some definite thing. Just a combination of factors that made it seem like that from the writing. Nothing like now, where Lobdell has clearly debunked these things.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I didn't say it was some definite thing. Just a combination of factors that made it seem like that from the writing. Nothing like now, where Lobdell has clearly debunked these things.


Lobdell is a treasure

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Lobdell is a treasure


Holy...Shots fired!

----------


## SpentShrimp

It blows my mind that people don't understand dark, edgy guy humor when it comes to Jason.

----------


## Jovos2099

Has anyone here seen the t.v. show shameless the character of Frank Gallagher from there is how I've always imagined  willis todd to be like has anyone else ever thought that.

----------


## Aioros22

> Was that from BotC? Actually it made Bruce look really bad. He couldn't make it to discuss it with Jason face to face in a personal conversation. Instead he used hologram after his death to openly reveal Jason's "dark secret" in front of everyone. That's really... bad...


Where are people getting this idea there was any kind of sexual innuendo between Jason and Bruce in Pre Flashpoint stories set after UTRH? Bruce`s message in BOTC (written by Tony Daniel) was supposed to echo Jason`s earlier words to Mia in Green Arrow by Winnick. That he, like her, most likely did more than steal to survive in the streets. The implication Daniel flew with was that Jason had also been in the prostitution market.

Any merit such a concept could have in theory would require a great writer to juggle with finesse, which was hardly the case. It painted Jason a broken character who never had the chance because was damaned from the get go, painted Dick and Tim utter assholes because they saw the message and still acted like they had no idea why someone would flip over like that given the context and most of all paints Bruce as a severily inept sadistic trolling of a father, nevermind a human being. 

That being said, in the old days Batman and Robin did have some innuendo, on purpose or otherwise (I say this because truly it`s hard to believe how some panels weren`t supposed to get a reaction out of readers) which led to perceptions like the ever popular sexual infatuation of the dinamic duo in popular culture.

----------


## Aioros22

And to end the night in cool trivia, here`s Pre Crisis Jason with his original costume  :Wink:  

https://bobbenkatzen.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. _But what is he believing now?_ When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.
> 
> Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.
> 
> One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.


I think his challenge of Batman's morality worked in UTH is because we were _very well_ informed of the Joker's crimes. Quarac was always about finding the bow and not about punishing a dictator. We didn't have anything concrete going on regarding his crimes on humanity, for us to want the guy dead, at least not on an emotional level. Especially after he admitted that he wasn't using the bow, ie. it wasn't him that blow up a whole city. Even though he _is_ a dictator, offing him right after his plea of innocence wouldn't make Jason look good either.

From interviews, I think the long game Lobdell is going for is to keep challenging Jason's view, as Jason himself did with Batman. I hope it means there will for a long time be a back and forth between whether he thinks his way is right or wrong. In the end I'll always want Jason to have a different set of principals from the Bats of course, but in the mean time, challenge his view in any way. Of course, I very much want this conflict about morality to show up again in RHATO, but when it does, it has to be the focus and not a side dish to Artemis's story.

As of now, I don't think that he is succumbed to Batman's no kill policy, not on a fundamental level. It's just that he can be flexible about it. He wants to set an example for Bizarro, and Duela before that, knowing full well the damage they both could do. He circumvented the rule in the situation with Black Mask. At the end of RH/A, even though Roy saved him from taking another life, there was no doubt Jason was ready to pull the trigger on Duela. That was after he offed a few of Roy's former teammates. 

Now there's an idea. What if Willis turns out to have committed a horrible crime?

----------


## Aahz

> Oh yeah, Chris! I don't know why I keep forgetting his name. 
> 
> And did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin story.


Depends on which issue with Chris you mean, imo RHatO#25 was ok  but Batman#0 was quite bad, especially when you compare the Tim and Dicks flashback with Jasons.

----------


## TheCape

back_to_the_cave_page_four_by_the_blackcat.jpg
I find this webcomic thanks to a post in the Tim Drake thread. Is pretty good.

----------


## G-Potion

Injustice's Last Chance Qualifier for ELeague official promotion pic. Our boy is on there.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> I find this webcomic thanks to a post in the Tim Drake thread. Is pretty good.


Ha I like this Batman.

----------


## Aioros22

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

----------


## EMarie

> And did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin storyAnd did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin story..


Jason didn't want to go rob a store, didn't realize it was a real loaded gun and panicked (saying his name) which lead to a woman dying. Jason clearly didn't want any part of it but still did it because of Chris. Collins has Jason calm when dealing with people bigger than him and guns. Tynion had Jason freak out even when he assumed the gun wasn't loaded and they were just taking money.

Didn't Chris also drag Jason away from his mom to get red hood masks off dead guys in the middle of a city wide panic? I still don't buy Jason leaving her in that state especially at that time. I recall Chris getting mad and punching Jason. Later on Jason punched him and claimed he'd never be Red Hood. Which happened before the attempted store robbery.

Jason made it clear under Collins that he only stole to survive. He didn't want to join Ma Gunn's gang. Chris thought that somehow they'd be able to join the Red Hood gang with masks. I didn't like the selling drug origin either.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://3eden.tumblr.com/


Dang look at the colors _burst_.  :EEK!: 

I'll have my new art up here soon.... eventually...  :Cool:

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).
> 
> I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule? 
> 
> Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce. 
> 
> We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. _But what is he believing now?_ When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.
> 
> Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.
> ...


The one day all this juicy discussion happens and of course I miss it because exams. :Stick Out Tongue: 

I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.

You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.

 I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality. Jason has been known to put 'acting on his own morality' on the backburner if it's for the sake of someone else and it really says a lot that his goal isn't about eliminating bad people, that helping someone else will always win over eliminating bad people for him. 

Agree so hard with your last point too. To somehow justify his anger at Gotham's entire system of revolving jail doors as lashing out due to a hard life cheapens the entire viewpoint. I think UtRH hit home for a lot of people because places like Gotham happen in real life. We had a serial killer a few years back who murdered prostitutes because he thought they were "dirtied women". Police didn't do much and brushed off a lot because people reporting this were also prostitutes and then it really became a big deal just after finding out he fed the bodies to his pigs and those pigs were sold for human consumption. The revolving door also happens, last year we welcomed back a repeat offence pedophile who left jail after maybe 5 or 8 years. Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.

Anyways that was a long ass text wall that I'm sorry I made you read but question for you all. Where do you guys stand on the spectrum of this Bat/Jason morality? Just curious to hear because I know people who disagree with Jason but still like his character and vice versa for Bruce too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> http://3eden.tumblr.com/


Beautiful job, my favorite part is that they used Medri's costume for Jason, in my opinion the best look for him. And really, it says a lot of how prevalent the OG Outlaws for the fans. Here's hoping the story with them meeting the current Outlaws is still coming.




> I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).
> 
> I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule? 
> 
> Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce. 
> 
> We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. _But what is he believing now?_ When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.
> 
> Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.
> ...


Is not really that Jason has changed his view just because he has a place to belong, but the fact of the matter is that Jason has grown to believe that no one is truly irredeemable like it was the case with Joker's Daughter (story on which Jason outright decided to stop killing to set an example for Duela). And for those few they do, he would rather dish out some "ironic" punishment than killing them. Something like rehabilitating the Joker so he would be forced to live with the knowledge of all the terrible things he did. The only exception to that, is when people threatens Jason's friends. Then is when all the niceties are over and he goes straight for the kill.

Personally I don't think this is watering down the character but helping him to mature.

----------


## magpieM

> I think his challenge of Batman's morality worked in UTH is because we were _very well_ informed of the Joker's crimes. Quarac was always about finding the bow and not about punishing a dictator. We didn't have anything concrete going on regarding his crimes on humanity, for us to want the guy dead, at least not on an emotional level. Especially after he admitted that he wasn't using the bow, ie. it wasn't him that blow up a whole city. Even though he _is_ a dictator, offing him right after his plea of innocence wouldn't make Jason look good either.


Yes this is true. The story did not explore enough about this guy. And it's not necessary either because Artemis, Akila and the bow were the focus. So yes it would be a huge distraction if the story suddenly focus on something else from the battle.




> In the end I'll always want Jason to have a different set of principals from the Bats of course, but in the mean time, challenge his view in any way. Of course, I very much want this conflict about morality to show up again in RHATO, but when it does, it has to be the focus and not a side dish to Artemis's story.


Exactly. It would be better to leave it to a proper situation when the challenge is involved in the core story.

----------


## magpieM

> I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.


It's true though. In UTRH he did believe that the extreme cases like Joker need to be killed. The challenge to test Jason himself is: Does he still truly believe it and have the will to take it into action when it's necessary, knowing it could further deteriorate his relationship with Bats? Or is it just part of his antagonism toward the Batfam, or in other words, is his belief something "negotiable" and "conditional" when it comes to Batman's approval to work under his rules? I don't think (and don't like) the latter would be the final outcome, but there are raised doubts about it.

I think the interesting thing is: Lobdell put him in this situation knowing we may ask those questions. He actually used Black Mask's mouth to speak: "... you no longer have to worry about elevating yourself in Batman's eyes..." (#5) And about the Bat symbol: "...It's a leash you put on yourself --- A way to keep yourself tethered to him... But you're just an errant child looking for your father's love." (#6)




> You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.


Yes now I totally agree with you and G. It would be too rush to add such a moment into Artemis story.




> I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality.


When Bizarro was being hold and questioned by Batwoman before Artemis released him, his tone and facial expression really felt like a totally different, dangerous person. This complexity would put more drama for Jason and Artemis to handle.




> Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.


Totally agree with you.

----------


## TheCape

pressure_by_the_blackcat-d85m1ka.jpg
More Batman and Sons.

----------


## magpieM

> Now there's an idea. What if Willis turns out to have committed a horrible crime?


It seems that there are some inconsistency about him. Was he in jail because of petty crimes, or to serve a life sentence? He was planning something extraordinary as his "redemption". Don't know what his ground is now.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Variant for 15

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Variant for 15


That one is pretty damn clever. I like it.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Variant for 15


This is a good one. Pretty clever.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Whoops. Didn't see my other one get posted.

----------


## G-Potion

> Where do you guys stand on the spectrum of this Bat/Jason morality? Just curious to hear because I know people who disagree with Jason but still like his character and vice versa for Bruce too.


Personally I agree with Jason to an extent, in that some people just need to _pay_ for their crimes. Even more if they are in a position where law can't touch them, and it happens very often where I live, where the government is widely regard as "evil" with no redeeming qualities. However, Jason's principals as of UTRH, and maybe even now, is not clear-cut because for him, his emotions always plays a big part in his decision and very often that decision is accompanied by a second motive as well (want Bruce to prove his love, want to reform Duela so that he can too...), so it's not something I could get behind completely. And that is why he needs to be on as many points on the spectrum as possible, because it challenges his initial belief. 

That said, I think Lobdell gave a clever solution to this in Futures End, and before that with Suzie Su. Repent or die. It just works perfectly for Jason, in my opinion.

----------


## G-Potion

> It seems that there are some inconsistency about him. Was he in jail because of petty crimes, or to serve a life sentence? He was planning something extraordinary as his "redemption". Don't know what his ground is now.


I doubt Lobdell would go this way. I don't even think I want it to go this way but if Willis's crime is especially unforgivable, it would put Jason in a predicament where he has to choose how he stands between his principals regarding criminals and his familial ties.

----------


## G-Potion

Coming from the most successful fighting game player in the world. And he means the character gameplay design, not the "edgelord" attitude or whatever some people call it.

Can't wait till Eleague to watch his RH again.

----------


## RedBird

> The one day all this juicy discussion happens and of course I miss it because exams.
> 
> I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.
> 
> You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.
> 
>  I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality. Jason has been known to put 'acting on his own morality' on the backburner if it's for the sake of someone else and it really says a lot that his goal isn't about eliminating bad people, that helping someone else will always win over eliminating bad people for him. 
> 
> Agree so hard with your last point too. To somehow justify his anger at Gotham's entire system of revolving jail doors as lashing out due to a hard life cheapens the entire viewpoint. I think UtRH hit home for a lot of people because places like Gotham happen in real life. We had a serial killer a few years back who murdered prostitutes because he thought they were "dirtied women". Police didn't do much and brushed off a lot because people reporting this were also prostitutes and then it really became a big deal just after finding out he fed the bodies to his pigs and those pigs were sold for human consumption. The revolving door also happens, last year we welcomed back a repeat offence pedophile who left jail after maybe 5 or 8 years. Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.
> ...


I agree with all this, also Jason changing his morality to be more aligned with the Batfamily ie; Not killing, would definitely be an unwise move from Lobdell, especially from a character whose popularity rose from the deep rooted questioning of Batman definition of justice using a more lethal counter argument, and also from a more shallow perspective, the fact that he is attractive to people as the 'bat that kills'. Hell, as much as I don't like Batman and Robin eternal, even that featured a panel from Bruce saying that Jason as the Red Hood does what Batman can't when the world needs it, what else would that be alluding to besides taking out bad guys? That being said I don't mind this current predicament that Jason has found himself in, trying to more or less, curb his 'behavior' in order to set an example for Biz. Like you, I thought I would hate it but I feel like this latest arc could really dig deep into that premise when Jason is pushed to extremes.

In terms of where I stand on Bat/Jason thingy, if I had to pick one, for Gotham, for sure Jason. Mainly because Batmans whole methodology is not wrong, I'm not really for the death penalty myself, however, his colorful cast of villains along with Gotham are just not grounded in reality. In the real world the Joker would have been put to death by now, even with his so called 'insanity' granting him time in an asylum rather than a prison, with enough public outcry and his long proven list of crimes (plus the fact that he always escapes, threatening the public and causing chaos each time) he would have been put to death for terrorism, insane or not. (Along with probably a few more villains I just thought I would focus on the obvious one.) In the real world, perhaps choosing between the two would be more difficult, though for me it depends on certain factors, I may side with Jason again, especially if the conditions/limitations of his justice were more clear. ie; on what grounds does he kill.

However, for Gothams sake, I definitely would choose Jason, but of course thats not a notion we could even entertain, with Batmans no kill rule, aside from the presentation of a genuinely just and righteous moral code, conveniently means that his villains get to stay alive and theres very little questioning behind why the hell some of them haven't been put down despite their horrific crimes. Honestly at this point, especially with DC really pushing the evil actions of the Joker from the 80s onwards, its such a big elephant in the room that its rarely ever addressed, at least from a _head on_ perspective. Until of course Jason came onto the scene as Red Hood and was a walking embodiment of why Batmans method didnt work in the long run, and why Joker should be killed. Its funny cause from a writing standpoint it kinda makes you wonder why the writers would dare bring up such a notion that would clearly rock and pick away at Bruces foundation of justice by exposing its flaws, its like drawing attention to your plot holes. That is until you realize that Jason wasn't meant to live a second time and was planned to die by the end of the arc, thus killing that embodiment of the questioning and criticism to Batmans morality and simultaneously punishing the one (Jason) that dared question it in the first place, placing Batman safely back into the place of moral superiority and authority over Gotham. Also of course Winnick just wanted for Bruce to kill Jason with that horrible throat slice as the ultimate man pain irony that Bruce, after years of mourning his sons death, would then be the one to take him from the world, but thats a story for another day.

----------


## G-Potion

@Everyone: teach me how to write walls of text guyssss why does my opinion take like two sentences and that's it.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> That is until you realize that Jason wasn't meant to live a second time and was planned to die by the end of the arc, thus killing that embodiment of the questioning and criticism to Batmans morality and simultaneously punishing the one (Jason) that dared question it in the first place, placing Batman safely back into the place of moral superiority and authority over Gotham. Also of course Winnick just wanted for Bruce to kill Jason with that horrible throat slice as the ultimate man pain irony that Bruce, after years of mourning his sons death, would then be the one to take him from the world, but thats a story for another day.


Overcoming a second death. This man is really something else.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## magpieM

> I doubt Lobdell would go this way. I don't even think I want it to go this way but if Willis's crime is especially unforgivable, it would put Jason in a predicament where he has to choose how he stands between his principals regarding criminals and his familial ties.


Oh that's only my random guess. Lobdell still keeps us in the dark about the letter except that Ma Gunn got a shellshock after reading it. So basically everything is possible now.

----------


## G-Potion

Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## DamianBane

> http://3eden.tumblr.com/


Wow thats amazing

----------


## magpieM

> Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.


Wow this is awesome. Soy will be ecstatic!

 :Big Grin:  They are so cute in the second figure, too! (Family travel?)

Finally I finished reading this thread from page 1... You've been creating great art here!

----------


## G-Potion

> Wow this is awesome. Soy will be ecstatic!
> 
>  They are so cute in the second figure, too! (Family travel?)


Yep. And it seems Jason is the only one who cares to look culturally appropriate.  :Cool: 




> Finally I finished reading this thread from page 1... You've been creating great art here!


Haha that's _dedication_. Personally I feel this thread is becoming a much better place to be as there is not so much negativity as before. And thaaaank you!! I have ideas for a lot more to come.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## The Whovian

> Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.


That is cool!

----------


## G-Potion

> That is cool!


Thaaaanks mate!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That one is pretty damn clever. I like it.


It certainly is a massive step up over the previous variant

----------


## RedBird

It makes you fly...

----------


## kiwiliko

> Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.


Super cool!
I'd personally love to see Outlaws in Japan or just Bats exploring outside the usual Gotham. The potential for expanding their character designs or adding new rogues is always fun.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Variant for 15


First cover that's brought to mind for me that Jason is actually the only team member with a last name.
Love this cover but does anyone else feel like her mouth and teeth are surprisingly realistic. 
Saw it last night and just couldn't unsee it today.

----------


## G-Potion

Since Soy isn't done expanding with the art, someone convince him to write/draw his own Ninja Hood series please!  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> First cover that's brought to mind for me that Jason is actually the only team member with a last name.
> Love this cover but does anyone else feel like her mouth and teeth are surprisingly realistic. 
> Saw it last night and just couldn't unsee it today.


Wow. I didn't look closely at first since Harley doesn't interest me but now I can't unsee it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Suicide Squad is gone!!!!!!!
And HIVE makes a return from RH/A and Lobdell's Superman!!!

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #18
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by SERGIO SANDOVAL
Cover by MIKE McKONE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
Retailers: These issues will ship with two covers each. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
“Bizarro Reborn” part five! With the H.I.V.E. queen wreaking havoc in Gotham City, Artemis’ growing suspicion about Bizarro’s newfound intelligence could lead to a shocking discovery that will forever alter the future of the Outlaws. Meanwhile, would Bizarro really invite a new member to join the team without running it by Red Hood first? And would that new addition really be the Creeper? (Yes, and maybe…)
On sale JANUARY 10 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+

----------


## The Whovian

Good. No more SS!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

For those curious about Sandoval, you can check his work here

https://www.facebook.com/sergio.sand...=pb_friends_tl

----------


## G-Potion

Sounds like its getting out of control. If Jason still hasn't had any suspicion by now, he is either blindsighted by his trurst or is having something else to worry about.

----------


## Alycat

HIVE is terrible bleh. But that variant is super cute.

----------


## magpieM

> ...With the H.I.V.E. queen wreaking havoc in Gotham City, Artemis’ growing suspicion about Bizarro’s newfound intelligence could lead to a shocking discovery that will forever alter the future of the Outlaws...


Sounds like Bizarro brings her to Gotham

----------


## G-Potion

Can anyone sell me on the Creeper and his potential influence  to the team dynamics?

Is this gonna trigger Jason?

----------


## Alycat

> Can anyone sell me on the Creeper and his potential influence  to the team dynamics?


Creeper is great, but I think his last good appearance is Deathstroke Rebirth 11. There was a new Creeper for a while if I'm not wrong, so I have no idea where Lobdell will go.

----------


## G-Potion

Well I just noticed New52 Creeper was originally an Oni. Use it and take the team to Japan so Jason can wear Soy's ninja suit pleaseee Lobdell!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alycat

> Well I just noticed New52 Creeper was originally an Oni. Use it and take the team to Japan so Jason can wear Soy's ninja suit pleaseee Lobdell!


No please  :Frown:  .  Nu Creeper was terrible.They need to stop disrespecting the real Creeper. Priest brought him back and that's who should be used. Ninja Jason can happen at any point.

----------


## Rise

> Suicide Squad is gone!!!!!!!
> And HIVE makes a return from RH/A and Lobdell's Superman!!!
> 
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #18
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by SERGIO SANDOVAL
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: These issues will ship with two covers each. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> ...


Not interested in HIVE, but glad that smart Bizarro is still around and I wonder if Creeper is just going to team up wuth them for few issues or Lobdell is indeed planning to extend the Outlaws. If it's the latter, then this will be interesting direction.

----------


## Aioros22

> It makes you fly...


At this point, Soy is clearly making a pitch  :Wink:  Keep it going!

@t G - awesome, awesome! You got a good hand bro, I`m thinking of colab in the future, we gotta. 

@t Harley variant - Aaaand we`re back at visual easter eggs galore. I prefer this sort of variant myself. 

@t solicit - Interested to know how the Creeper will show up as and why Bizarro is picking him and in what way Json will react to both of them. Notice Artemis is not on the cover and there`s no mention in the solicits about the misterious guy. 


Good stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G - awesome, awesome! You got a good hand bro, I`m thinking of colab in the future, we gotta.


We really should! Hit me up whenever. Do you draw or write? Or both?  :Embarrassment:  




> @t solicit - Interested to know how the Creeper will show up as and why Bizarro is picking him and in what way Json will react to both of them. Notice Artemis is not on the cover and there`s no mention in the solicits about the misterious guy.


I know nothing about Creeper. Base on his visual and his laugh alone though, guess Jason is gonna be uncomfortable around this guy. Still I'm more concerned about why apparently only Artemis is suspiscious of Bizarro. Surely Jason can't miss whatever it is that's going on?

----------


## G-Potion

Guys remind me, what has Lobdell done so far with HIVE? In RHATO as well as Superman.

----------


## Aahz

> I know nothing about Creeper. Base on his visual and his laugh alone though, guess Jason is gonna be uncomfortable around this guy. Still I'm more concerned about why apparently only Artemis is suspiscious of Bizarro. Surely Jason can't miss whatever it is that's going on?


The thing with the creeper is that he has been very inconsistently handled. I'm not familiar with the new 52 version, but with per flashpoint version it varied a lot if and how insane he was.

----------


## TomServofan

One of those tropes of former hero turned villain.

How often does that happen?

----------


## scary harpy

> Well I just noticed New52 Creeper was originally an Oni. Use it and take the team to Japan so Jason can wear Soy's ninja suit pleaseee Lobdell!





> No please  .  Nu Creeper was terrible.They need to stop disrespecting the real Creeper. Priest brought him back and that's who should be used. Ninja Jason can happen at any point.





> I know nothing about Creeper. Base on his visual and his laugh alone though, guess Jason is gonna be uncomfortable around this guy. Still I'm more concerned about why apparently only Artemis is suspiscious of Bizarro. Surely Jason can't miss whatever it is that's going on?





> The thing with the creeper is that he has been very inconsistently handled. I'm not familiar with the new 52 version, but with per flashpoint version it varied a lot if and how insane he was.


The new Creeper maybe _not good_ but the old Creeper was *blah*.

If they are brining back the old Creep, he needs a massive update. His abilities are boring and he bring nothing notable to the Outlaws.

----------


## adrikito

> Suicide Squad is gone!!!!!!!
> And HIVE makes a return from RH/A and Lobdell's Superman!!!
> 
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #18
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by SERGIO SANDOVAL
> Cover by MIKE McKONE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: These issues will ship with two covers each. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> ...


After all these years, Not her name but I recognized her..

----------


## adrikito

> Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.


HAHAHAHA




> Variant for 15


The suicide Squad... For this Harley is here... I think that I will be out during certain time..

----------


## G-Potion

> One of those tropes of former hero turned villain.
> 
> How often does that happen?


Who do you mean?

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood by John Becaro

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood by Rygorg. I didn't know there's a big version of this pic.

----------


## G-Potion

Guys, what are your favorite costume designs for Red Hood?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

1. Medri's
2. Soy's Ninja RH
2. AK Red Hood
3. Rebirth
4. Injustice
5. N52

----------


## Assam

Favorite costume design? 

Rebirth, closely followed by the Bamboozled outfit. 

The award for worst is a toss-up between the Morrison costume, any time the helmet has a sculpted mouth, and the ugly as sin Red Hood/Arsenal outfit. The nicest thing I can say about the latter is that its better than what NuRoy was stuck wearing.

----------


## G-Potion

A mix between N52 and the _Bamboozled_ outfit. Like the name, Assam.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

https://dartfushka.deviantart.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Red X Arkham Knight by https://phil-cho.deviantart.com

----------


## G-Potion

My list is in no way definitive, order can change like the wind. For now:

1. Bamboozled / UTRH:  Most simple but also one of the more intimidating looking. Did Countdown use the same one? I remember liking it very much too.

2. Arkham Knight / Soy's Ninja Red Hood: The best of their respective aesthetic direction. 

3. Rebirth / Injustice: Simple. Rolled up jacket sleeves / Armguard over jacket sleeves + Knife holster.

4. N52 / Medri / Arkham Red Hood: Red soles / Unique look / Jacket, duck tapes and band-aids like he still has a fundamental sense in fashion but just can't be bothered with much else.

5. Winick's upgrade of the Morrison suit.
.....
999. The Morrison suit.

----------


## RedBird

So if any of you are buying Batman 33 solely for Jason and thought that King may just surprise you and write him in-character and not as a immature, hypocritical and bratty man child then......

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! What on earth were you thinking??

Seriously if you were hoping for an even SOMEWHAT decent appearance, save your money.

----------


## G-Potion

> So if any of you are buying Batman 33 solely for Jason and thought that King may just surprise you and write him in-character and not as a immature, hypocritical and bratty man child then......
> 
> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! What on earth were you thinking??
> 
> Seriously if you were hoping for a even SOMEWHAT decent appearance, save your money.


I completely forgot about it to be honest. Okay lay it on me. How bad was it? And what about the others?

----------


## G-Potion

I consider it OOC for Jason if he even thinks Bruce's engagement is remotely his business in some way. So the fact that we are having a "reaction" scene is already making me weary.

----------


## RedBird

> I completely forgot about it to be honest. Okay lay it on me. How bad was it?


UGH, just ugh. I mean half his screen time was dedicated to fighting the dog with everyone saying 'the dog will win' and Jason claiming he wont. Subtlety? From King?? Pfffff! You can tell that King has been around Marvel too long with these super cringy super obvious 'in your face' moments. (same with the whole Bat Cat nonsense.)

And then (I dont even care, I'm not blocking spoilers) After they find out about Batman escapade in the desert Jason then points a finger at Duke and says that its all his fault that this is happening since he is the latest addition, saying 'you should be his light to the darkness or whatever, so Bruce doesnt go off and marry a villain'. Then of course Duke points out that Jason is a bigger villain for being the red hood and a villain for stealing the tyre to the batmobile, to which Jason literally crosses his arms and pouts. SIGH. Thats not all but thats the gist of it, and.....Boy am I tired. So very, very tired. Though twas a friend that showed me this so at least I saved MY money too.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> I consider it OOC for Jason if he even thinks Bruce's engagement is remotely his business in some way. So the fact that we are having a "reaction" scene is already making me weary.


Its obnoxiously OOC and stupid. Its clear King is just trying to stir crap up and just *using* the characters in any way he can to tell HIS story, regardless if their reactions make sense or not. Only Damian has the right to be even a little pissed.

----------


## G-Potion

> UGH, just ugh. I mean half his screen time was dedicated to fighting the dog with everyone saying 'the dog will win' and Jason claiming he wont. Subtlety? From King?? Pfffff! You can tell that King has been around Marvel too long with these super cringy super obvious 'in your face' moments. (same with the whole Bat Cat nonsense.)
> 
> And then (I dont even care, I'm not blocking spoilers) After they find out about Batman escapade in the desert Jason then points a finger at Duke and says that its all his fault that this is happening since he is the latest addition, saying 'you should be his light to the darkness or whatever, so Bruce doesnt go off and marry a villain'. Then of course Duke points out that Jason is a bigger villain for being the red hood and a villain for stealing the tyre to the batmobile, to which Jason literally crosses his arms and pouts. SIGH. Thats not all but thats the gist of it, and.....Boy am I tired. So very, very tired. Though twas a friend that showed me this so at least I saved MY money too.


Oh boy. Jason making a jab at Batman/Robin dynamics could work in some cases. I think I have to know his tone and the mood of the scene to judge. If it's in a joking manner than Jason doesn't mind it as much? But the thing with the dog though. Combine it with the dead horse joke. Very petty of King.

Nonetheless. Money saved! It's a win!

----------


## RedBird

> Oh boy. Jason taking a jab at Batman/Robin dynamics could work in some cases.


Oh trust me, I agree with that sentiment. However those jabs that Jason makes are usually used to properly criticize the formula rather than whoever is in the role, especially when its such a misdirection of anger (as its used here) and also makes him come across as nothing but petulant. Again, his reaction makes no sense.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh trust me, I agree with that sentiment. However those jabs that Jason makes are usually used to properly criticize the formula rather than whoever is in the role, especially when its such a misdirection of anger (as its used here) and also makes him come across as nothing but petulant. Again, his reaction makes no sense.


Damn I was hoping he said it in a joking manner.

----------


## RedBird

> Damn I was hoping he said it in a joking manner.


I can't believe I'm saying this. But I actually miss Snyder.

----------


## magpieM

Seriously how long do we have to endure this writer?

----------


## Rise

I guess I'm going to be the odd man out because I actually really enjoyed the mansion scene. The whole thing got a good laugh out of me and the reactions to Bruce's engagement were priceless. 

Damian burst out crying was odd, but not surprising at the same time because since Rebrith he has been acting more like a 10 years old than he did when he was an actual 10 years old. It's kind of funny in a way how his development is going backwards.

----------


## Aioros22

> So if any of you are buying Batman 33 solely for Jason and thought that King may just surprise you and write him in-character and not as a immature, hypocritical and bratty man child then......
> 
> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! What on earth were you thinking??
> 
> Seriously if you were hoping for an even SOMEWHAT decent appearance, save your money.


Just FYI, Trinity is out today as well and the worst of it is still Bizarro`s speech pattern. The arc is standard as you can get but you can stomach it, at least.

----------


## Aioros22

As far as #33 you can tell it would be OCC because King prefers to poke fun at fanbases than telling the actual story. This issue got filler written all over it just from the preview. He`s talented alright but..

My wallet has a limit for pretentious Tailor Switft-esque horseshit.

----------


## RedBird

> Just FYI, Trinity is out today as well and the worst of it is still Bizarro`s speech pattern. The arc is standard as you can get but you can stomach it, at least.


Oh yeah I know. I actually read both in succession, sorry forgot to mention Trinity, I was just so put off by batman 33 I forgot, though in all fairness Trinity itself is pretty forgettable. But yeah your right, as average as it is, its actually more palatable, strangely thanks to how bland and inoffensive it is.

----------


## okiedokiewo

Having read the issue, I don't think it's AS bad as I feared from the comments, although it's not great. The Jason vs. Ace incident may have even been amusing, if it had been something organic and not Tom King being petty about fans and using his work to poke at them - and if it hadn't continued the trend of this being the only way Tom King knows how to write Jason. The whole thing would have been better if Jason had been shown petting Ace at the end, too (maybe I missed it?). The slight victim-blaming by Duke was a bit eye-roll inducing, but him bringing up the tire stealing was a nice reference, I thought. Also Duke apparently calls Jason "Jay."

For me, the way Bruce and Selina talk like robots, and the incessant "Bat"/"Cat" stuff are the worst parts of the issue. I also don't buy that everyone would be so upset about this engagement. But Bruce and Selina barely act like real people. Also why are they even riding horses in a desert?

----------


## G-Potion

Read it. Okay damn, I hate it now. Jason being distressed about this is OOC enough, Jason calling Duke Robin when Damian was just right there is out of nowhere, not to mention insensitive. I was hoping his Batman/Robin comment had been a joke. But when he did say a joke, after Damian broke down, what a shit thing to do. 

It's hard to reconcilce this Jason with the thoughtful one in RHATO.

----------


## G-Potion

> For me, the way Bruce and Selina talk like robots, and the incessant "Bat"/"Cat" stuff are the worst parts of the issue. I also don't buy that everyone would be so upset about this engagement. But Bruce and Selina barely act like real people. Also why are they even riding horses in a desert?


Agreed. That Bat/Cat part is the worst and I wonder if anyone would read and still think these two as anything other than jerks. Or robots, yeah.

Still scratch my head why this engagement thing warrants such a fuss.

----------


## G-Potion

Trinity was so meh couldn't even bring myself to read all the text.

----------


## Punisher007

It's odd because since when has Jason ever cared this much about Bruce's personal life?  Also if anything, I'd imagine that him and Dick would be the MOST supportive of this:

-Dick because he'd just want Bruce to be happy and mellow out a bit.

-Jason because he of all people should know that villainy is not a zero-sum game.  Catwoman is only a villain in the tamest sense of the word, and that's when she's being a villain at all.  She doesn't murder innocent people, most of the time she doesn't even kill baddies either.  Plus I mean she's one other person who thinks that Bruce's methods need to a bit more, flexible at time (something that Jason could probably relate to).

----------


## EMarie

Has Jason even interacted with Selina since he became Red Hood?

----------


## G-Potion

> It's odd because since when has Jason ever cared this much about Bruce's personal life?  Also if anything, I'd imagine that him and Dick would be the MOST supportive of this:
> 
> -Dick because he'd just want Bruce to be happy and mellow out a bit.
> 
> -Jason because he of all people should know that villainy is not a zero-sum game.  Catwoman is only a villain in the tamest sense of the word, and that's when she's being a villain at all.  She doesn't murder innocent people, most of the time she doesn't even kill baddies either.  Plus I mean she's one other person who thinks that Bruce's methods need to a bit more, flexible at time (something that Jason could probably relate to).


I just see it as King's tendency to fit characters into moulds to serve his story and unfortunately Jason has to play the clown, everytime.

----------


## G-Potion

> Has Jason even interacted with Selina since he became Red Hood?


Did he shoot her in BTFC? I can't remember. Can't think of anything else at the top of my head.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Trinity was so meh couldn't even bring myself to read all the text.


Trinity's probably just another name grab at this point unfortunately.

There's at least one more scene where both Superman and Bizarro both get knocked down by kryptonite which kinda... didn't realize the fact Bizarro gets stronger with kryptonite.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm surprised that tumblr is loving the reactions so far.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm surprised that tumblr is loving the reactions so far


I'm not, tumblr has his own weird interpretation of the batfamily  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Told you that Batman would be terrible.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm surprised that tumblr is loving the reactions so far.


Tumble lives for Bat-family stuff. Most of it at least, unless they are character specific fans. Personally, the issue was a drag for me and the art was bad during the family scene. Nobody looked right.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm not, tumblr has his own weird interpretation of the batfamily


The page of the reactions is not the issue, it makes sense the bug eyes since none of them would expect Bruce to actually marry someone in their life and certainly not out of nowhere (one more point for Bruce being a shit person in general again, the cout must be in the hundreds now). 

The issue is the conversation between Jason, Duke and Damian. There is no character voice there that works and they`re all OCC on meth. One, why the frag would Jason actually care after the initial surprise? No idea. The Jason I read about wouldn`t give two shits about Selina at this moment in time. Both him and Dick had enough run-ins with her in the past to be over it. 

Second, why is he adressing Duke when everyone knows Damian is Robin? Is it to have Duke give us another exposition about how he`s not Robin? This is like Jason telling us again he`s died, we all know and so do the characters. Jason then pouts over what Damian says, why? He didn`t made UTRH out of spite or just because he felt like it, he did it to get revenge, the story especifically places two philosophies of crime fighting, both working outside the law and very personal to the core. Why didn`t Jason just replied "Look, you little turd, I may have gone over the edge with all the pain I had but I did for people like your parents". 

Third, why is Damian having a emotional meltdown? Was he expecting that one day Bruce and Talia got together again? After the things she`s done? After being responsible for his own death? 

In all this, the Ace thing isn`t even the most bananas, because Alfred steps in. 

Great art, tho.

----------


## G-Potion

> Great art, tho.


Except for Dick, I guess. He is barely recognizable.

----------


## G-Potion

I think Tumblr at large hasn't read the issue yet so it's just seeing that page and go awwww.

----------


## Aioros22

Haha yes, he looks so....standard. Not sure that`s the word but it`s the sentiment. On the other hand I liked how Jason looked, just not how he read as.

----------


## Aioros22

And of course Tumblr likes it. So do I, as long the dialogue is not there. The storytelling in conveying human emotions and reactions is friggin great. It`s the penning that doesn`t feel earned.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Haha yes, he looks so....standard. Not sure that`s the word but it`s the sentiment. On the other hand I liked how Jason looked, just not how he read as.


Good on you two for telling them apart. The voices were off by quite a lot so I just went by shirt color to tell them apart. On the bright side this just confirms to me Jason will never willingly wear a hoodie color that isn't red. He's laid his claim on this color like the very extra human being he is (anyone else also notice he did the socks and sandals combo in RHATO too)

----------


## G-Potion

> Haha yes, he looks so....standard. Not sure that`s the word but it`s the sentiment. On the other hand I liked how Jason looked, just not how he read as.


There was an instance where I thought had Jason been drawn with different expression (not so petulant), I might have stomached what he said (brightening his darkness crap) more easily. But of course that's backward. It's on King not the artist to decide on the tone of voice, and it doesn't change the fact that he had Jason say Duke was Robin in front of Damian. Is this another meta dig at fans?

----------


## G-Potion

> Good on you two for telling them apart. The voices were off by quite a lot so I just went by shirt color to tell them apart. On the bright side this just confirms to me Jason will never willingly wear a hoodie color that isn't red. He's laid his claim on this color like the very extra human being he is (anyone else also notice he did the socks and sandals combo in RHATO too)


Why hasn't anyone retconned his favorite color yet. It's obviously not green anymore.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Alycat

> Except for Dick, I guess. He is barely recognizable.


He looked older than Bruce. Getting punched in the face is taking its toll.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> There was an instance where I thought had Jason been drawn with different expression (not so petulant), I might have stomached what he said (brightening his darkness crap) more easily. But of course that's backward. It's on King not the artist to decide on the tone of voice, and it doesn't change the fact that he had Jason say Duke was Robin in front of Damian. Is this another meta dig at fans?


I think you can easily assume so.

----------


## G-Potion

> He looked older than Bruce. Getting punched in the face is taking its toll.


Already? That's like, only half the family so far.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rise

No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer.

Also, I don't understand what so "hurtful" or "stupid" about Jason assuming that Duke is Robin since he literally  called himself that in n52 which was the first and the last time Jason saw him fighting. Not to mention that the whole dialog between Jason and Duke was a joke about Duke being esque-robin.

----------


## EMarie

> Second, why is he adressing Duke when everyone knows Damian is Robin? Is it to have Duke give us another exposition about how he`s not Robin? This is like Jason telling us again he`s died, we all know and so do the characters. Jason then pouts over what Damian says, why? He didn`t made UTRH out of spite or just because he felt like it, he did it to get revenge, the story especifically places two philosophies of crime fighting, both working outside the law and very personal to the core. Why didn`t Jason just replied "Look, you little turd, I may have gone over the edge with all the pain I had but I did for people like your parents".


That reminds me of the nonsense dialogue King had in Robin War where Damian mocked Jason for dying and Damian actually had to be reminded by Tim that he died too. It's so unnatural. 

Jason knows he made mistakes and freely admits to them. There's never been any denial over it. He's also given people more dangerous than Selina the chance to redeem themselves. If Jason had a problem with Selina he wouldn't address it this way. I'm still not sure why he has a problem as this doesn't seem in character for him. If she did something selfish in the past that almost got someone like Alfred killed and showed no remorse ? I could potentially buy that but not how this is presented. 

Jason is currently someone that feels HE needs to earn Bruce trust and doesn't feel like he deserves a place in the family. For him to suggest otherwise here makes no sense.

----------


## kiwiliko

> No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer.
> 
> Also, I don't understand what so "hurtful" or "stupid" about Jason assuming that Duke is Robin since he litteray called himself that in n52 which was the first and the last time Jason saw him fighting. Not to mention that the whole dialog between Jason and Duke was a joke about Duke being equse-robin.


The only comments I've seen calling it out for hurtfulness so far are more in Damians thread. I think because in large and heavily publicized runs like Batman, there's always very little room for supporting characters and it gets easy to reduce everyone outside the main to their respective tropes but I admit I get real tired of seeing these tropes get repeated over and over.

Maybe it really is just personal taste at this point but I just can't hear King's dialogue voices as actual characters and it goes for how he writes Bat and Cat too.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> That reminds me of the nonsense dialogue King had in Robin War where Damian mocked Jason for dying and Damian actually had to be reminded by Tim that he died too. It's so unnatural. 
> 
> Jason knows he made mistakes and freely admits to them. There's never been any denial over it. He's also given people more dangerous than Selina the chance to redeem themselves. If Jason had a problem with Selina he wouldn't address it this way. I'm still not sure why he has a problem as this doesn't seem in character for him. If she did something selfish in the past that almost got someone like Alfred killed and showed no remorse ? I could potentially buy that but not how this is presented. 
> 
> Jason is currently someone that feels HE needs to earn Bruce trust and doesn't feel like he deserves a place in the family. For him to suggest otherwise here makes no sense.


He has a problem because Tom King has decided everyone has to have a problem with it. It's BatCat against the world! Doesn't Bruce even fight with Diana about it in a later issue and almost ruin their friendship? That's the impression I got from the solicits. It's so stupid. 

But for Jason to have an issue with it is just completely OOC. Why would he have a problem with Selina?

----------


## Rise

Jason didn't like Selina when he was Robin and everyone having problem with it because it's hard to imagine that Batman is actually getting married (they pretty much think that he is going crazy which is honestly funny).

I'm not big fan of King's dialogs myself, but I really don't think this issue worth getting this upset about. I personally  enjoyed it because I don't take comics more seriously than they deserves.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason didn't like Selina when he was Robin and everyone having problem with it because it's hard to imagine that Batman is actually getting married (they pretty much think that he is going crazy which is honestly funny).


Pre crisis they became friends in end iirc, post crisis they only met during Barr run, and it is hard to say if that was canonic, since he was still writing her has pre crisis Catwoman.


Btw. duke calling Jason "Jay" feels wrong imo.

----------


## Rise

Pre-crisis Jason hated Selina even more than in post-crisis. Bruce was even desperate for them to get along and Selina thought she has no chance with Bruce because Jason couldn't stand her. He only started to warm up to her later after she comforted him when he was upset about Natalia and then Jason started to dislike her again after the crisis.

And I don't understand what you are talking about since Barr's Catwoman wasn't at all written like her pre-crisis self.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Surprise about the news is understandable but the boys are acting as if Bruce just announced he's marrying Harley, as if Selina had a body count a mile long. Is just conflict for conflict's sake. Jason's reaction is particularly suspicious because he has always been a hands-off kind of guy and one who understands more than anyone else in the room that people can change. 

Actually, it would've been more in character for everyone to act surprised at first and then happy for Bruce. 

But then again you have King who depicts Talia having a massive orgy just because she's EEEEEEEVIIIIL despite being against everything on her character.

----------


## Punisher007

See I'm going to hold off on that one for a bit because I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a twist coming there.

----------


## Rise

What there to be happy about when Bruce didn't bother to tell them himself and then they hear that he is in some mission that alerted the JL?

And I totally agree that it's a conflict for sake of conflict, but I got why he did this because a lot of readers like and want drama (and no way I'm defending the orgy thing because I think it is disgusting, but Talia has been ruined already thanks to Morrison).

----------


## Alycat

> What there to be happy about when Bruce didn't bother to tell them himself and then they hear that he is in some mission that alerted the JL?
> 
> And I totally agree that it's a conflict for sake of conflict, but I got why he did this because a lot of readers like and want drama (and no way I'm defending the orgy thing because I think it is disgusting, but Talia has been ruined already thanks to Morrison).


This. Alot of people seem to be loving this issue and the comedy and drama  ( err minus the orgy. I have no idea whats going on there).

----------


## G-Potion

> No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer.


I don't think it's getting played by the writer as much as _getting tired_ of said writer only resorting to this way of writing Jason, and the Robins to an extent. It's reference on top of reference, jabbing at fan's feedback one after one, at the end it's just to fill that emptiness that's supposed to be understanding of these guest characters as _they are currently in canon_. This issue is choked full of those 'clever' moments but very out of character when you get down to it.

----------


## Aahz

> Pre-crisis Jason hated Selina even more than in post-crisis. Bruce was even desperate for them to get along and Selina thought she has no chance with Bruce because Jason couldn't stand her. He only started to warm up to her later after she comforted him when he was upset about Natalia and then Jason started to dislike her again after the crisis.
> 
> And I don't understand what you are talking about since Barr's Catwoman wasn't at all written like her pre-crisis self.


Barrs's Catwoman was still wearing her pre crisis costume, was written before Batman Year One and the story was iirc about the Joker brainwashing her back into a villain after she became a hero (which is also pre crisis).

----------


## Rise

G, I legit have seen Jasonfans praising him for how he write Jason in his twitter feed so I'm not surprised that he continues writing him this way. A lot of fans aren't taking this seriously and just enjoying it for what it is.

I understand not liking his take, but don't take it personally and just ignore it if you don't like it.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Surprise about the news is understandable but the boys are acting as if Bruce just announced he's marrying Harley, as if Selina had a body count a mile long. Is just conflict for conflict's sake. Jason's reaction is particularly suspicious because he has always been a hands-off kind of guy and one who understands more than anyone else in the room that people can change. 
> 
> Actually, it would've been more in character for everyone to act surprised at first and then happy for Bruce. 
> 
> But then again you have King who depicts Talia having a massive orgy just because she's EEEEEEEVIIIIL despite being against everything on her character.


Talia probably deserves to have the most outrage of all the supporting cast to get butchered. For a second I almost convinced myself those were just bodies leftover from a training session. Nothing against a villain who does walk out of an orgy but it's definitely not Talia.

----------


## Rise

> Barrs's Catwoman was still wearing her pre crisis costume, was written before Batman Year One and the story was iirc about the Joker brainwashing her back into a villain after she became a hero (which is also pre crisis).


Duh, the reboot in the 80s didn't do a make over of the characters costumes and their status que right away and it took time for the writers to do the changes. The fact that Jason was really against her in that story prove that it's not a follow up to pre-crisis.

----------


## Aioros22

> *Jason didn't like Selina when he was Robin* and everyone having problem with it because it's hard to imagine that Batman is actually getting married (they pretty much think that he is going crazy which is honestly funny).
> 
> I'm not big fan of King's dialogs myself, but I really don't think this issue worth getting this upset about. I personally  enjoyed it because I don't take comics more seriously than they deserves.


And then got over it. As Robin. 

He`s not Robin anymore.

----------


## G-Potion

> G, I legit have seen Jasonfans praising him for how he write Jason in his twitter feed so I'm not surprised that he continues writing him this way. A lot of fans aren't taking this seriously and just enjoying it for what it is.
> 
> I understand not liking his take, but don't take it personally and just ignore it if you don't like it.


He receives a lot of feedback from fans for his "joke" twitter tier list too and you can see this is how he chooses to get back at them, as well as the ones that have been calling out his overuse of "Bat" "Cat". I guess other people can find it funny, but for me I just shake my head at how petty it feels. 

No worry, I don't actually feel strongly as I might look here. It's more like a 'what else is new' reaction from me.

----------


## G-Potion

> Talia probably deserves to have the most outrage of all the supporting cast to get butchered. For a second I almost convinced myself those were just bodies leftover from a training session. Nothing against a villain who does walk out of an orgy but it's definitely not Talia.


I like Talia and I'm dreading for her.

----------


## G-Potion

Whatever Jason had against Catwoman as Robin shouldn't have any bearings on the presence. He was a child with childish insecurity then. The current Jason, even if you don't base off of Lobdell's characterization, still wouldn't act like it's the most outrageous thing happening nor it's any of his business.

----------


## Aioros22

> No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer


No offense but I can find a writer coming up with scenes just to take a dig at fanbases a _pretentious_ move.  




> Also, I don't understand what so "hurtful" or "stupid" about Jason assuming that Duke is Robin since he literally called himself that in n52 which was the first and the last time Jason saw him fighting. Not to mention that the whole dialog between Jason and Duke was a joke about Duke being esque-robin.


Duke and the others have been together in Rebirt before. 

Exchange just reads as nonsense. I liked the Diner sequence because it had meat in it. This one was dry.

----------


## G-Potion

> Exchange just reads as nonsense. I liked the Diner sequence because it had meat in it. This one was dry.


Literally too.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

And just to make to make it clear I like King in general. I think he`s got a sharp mind for sequential writting and layout. Like I said I enjoyed the Diner thing because the jokes were meta but here it feels hollow because you know he`s poking in your eye. 

There`s nice stuff. I like the orgy scene. I like Tiger`s cameo. I like the page with their reaction but the rest was soso. The bane of writting for trade form I know, take it or leave it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Literally too.


The King of puns  :Wink:

----------


## Rise

> He receives a lot of feedback from fans for his "joke" twitter tier list too and you can see this is how he chooses to get back at them, as well as the ones that have been calling out his overuse of "Bat" "Cat". I guess other people can find it funny, but for me I just shake my head at how petty it feels. 
> 
> No worry, I don't actually feel strongly as I might look here. It's more like a 'what else is new' reaction from me.


Good on him. The fact that he trolled the fans who took that list seriously is what made this funny.

I don't like the "Bat, cat", but I find the joke funny and I think he is entitled to write it the way he want the same way Lobdell was entitled to write the "Jaybird" nickname despite the fact there were fans who absolutely hated it.




> Duke and the others have been together in Rebirt before.


Yeah, in a restaurant, not in battlefield. Duke didn't even have a new name until recently. 

If you want to get upset about this, go ahead. It's not my problem because everyone is entitled to read comics the way they want. Jason is my favourite, but he is just a fictional character to me by the end of the day.

----------


## Alycat

The only people who should be scared are Talia fans for obvious reasons and Tim fans because he might as well not exist.

----------


## Aioros22

Why would you need to know his name when you know Damian is actively called Robin? 

I`m not upset and I wasn`t aware this is supposed to be your or anyone else`s problem. I certainly don`t have a problem -  I have an opinion that this time I didn`t enjoy it. 

Cèst la vie.

----------


## Rise

We are Robin says hey.

And yeah, you can have opinion which why I said it's not my problem (_that it's not a problem to me_) because you didn't need to explain to me why you didn't enjoy it in your previous comment.

----------


## TheCape

> The only people who should be scared are Talia fans for obvious reasons and Tim fans because he might as well not exist.


With the way that King writes the Robins, i'm glad that Tim wasn't in this one, migth be the best thing that came from him being on limbo.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jaybird is actually a nickname that was widely used by fans before Lobdell decided to use it on RHATO, and even then it was only used by Roy as a gesture of closeness with Jason.

Bruce and Selina _still_ calling each other Cat and Bat cpmes off like pretentious, stupid and actively goes against showing any kind of closeness between them. Is like having a couple calling each other by their last name despite being together for years.

----------


## Aioros22

> We are Robin says hey.


I think you`re scretching it if you believe is the same thing and I`m not sure you actually believe it is. WAR was a fan movement of x number of teenagers calling themselves it because they wanted to be part of something bigger in the wake of Future Evil. It`s meta commentary on what the role represents for the new milleniums and the use of widespread media to form an army of opinion to kick back at injustice. Anyone can dream of being Robin, anyone can wish it but as far as the fictional setting where the role actually exists, that is not being effectively the Robin and the arc that ends the title shows that. 

There's not much I care to add to this subject. I'm glad you like it but no cigar for me so I`ll agree to disagree.

----------


## G-Potion

Art by jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

Battle Priest aaaaa  :Embarrassment: 

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Good Dad Bruce to chase the recent taste away. http://kaylabeemarie.tumblr.com/

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Guys, what are your favorite costume designs for Red Hood?


To me, it's the original one we first saw Jason in.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer.
> 
> Also, I don't understand what so "hurtful" or "stupid" about Jason assuming that Duke is Robin since he literally  called himself that in n52 which was the first and the last time Jason saw him fighting. Not to mention that the whole dialog between Jason and Duke was a joke about Duke being esque-robin.


Are you trying to trigger them?!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jaybird is actually a nickname that was widely used by fans before Lobdell decided to use it on RHATO, and even then it was only used by Roy as a gesture of closeness with Jason.
> 
> Bruce and Selina _still_ calling each other Cat and Bat cpmes off like pretentious, stupid and actively goes against showing any kind of closeness between them. Is like having a couple calling each other by their last name despite being together for years.


Just call it what it is; Crappy fan-fiction.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


What the hell is going on with that last one? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

----------


## kiwiliko

> What the hell is going on with that last one? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


That last one looks kind of like what Cass did in N52 when she pointed to the Robin boy's head, heart and hands. I never figured it out but did the triad themes head/heart/hands ever have anything to do with the see/hear/speak no more symbolism? 

Loving the art style though, you beat me to it @G I just found their stuff today a few hours before you posted  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> No offense but I can find a writer coming up with scenes just to take a dig at fanbases a _pretentious_ move.


I think what bothers me most is the waste. Any screenwriter knows that every single piece of dialogue matters. In a good narrative, every line of dialogue should tell the audience something about the character/story. Seeing dialogue being used just to make a reference to his twitter page is a waste. Its a meta joke that isn't even based on the comics themselves, but on his own twitter. I just like my comics to not be based on someones social media account whenever possible thanks.




> No offence to you guys, but the fact that you got so worked up about this make the whole thing even more funnier because you pretty much got played by the writer.


Non taken, but I think the only people that are ever 'played' with comics are those that make a purchase they regret for whatever reason. 

I have bought every single Jason appearance new52 onwards (I'm still collecting pre52 stuff), I'm actually not picky with what I buy no matter how boring or little the appearance may be, since I want to show support for the character and any titles that decide to feature him. But if THIS is the way King is going to go about characterizing him, not only writing him ooc, but worse, purposefully using up screen time just to make a dig at some butt hurt twitter fans, then I have lost my last incentive to purchase any more Batman titles. I was already put off by the latest series of arcs, especially TWOJARs characterization of Bruce and just the general stupidity of that narrative, but a bat family appearance would have swayed me to keep going if it wasn't this cringeworthy and ooc (The continued bastardization of Talia, and Damian crying in front of everyone also felt like King was dramatizing things for no reason, and like others in the thread have mentioned, this arc will also have Bruce and Diana fight? For some reason? It seems King really seems to be pushing the drama on why oh why Bruce and Selina marrying would be such a difficult thing and would crumble the foundation of Batman, BLAH whatever he can keep writing whatever false drama he wants). If 'playing' people means driving them away because he literally cant stop beating a dead horse then, good on King I guess? He is saving me $13 a month now.

----------


## G-Potion

> What the hell is going on with that last one? Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


Haha you know what I anticipated this reaction from you.  :Stick Out Tongue:   It comes off as more symbolic than shippy to me though, and regardless, I admire the artistry of the pic and couldn't resist not including it.

----------


## G-Potion

> To me, it's the original one we first saw Jason in.


I can respect the choice!

----------


## G-Potion

> That last one looks kind of like what Cass did in N52 when she pointed to the Robin boy's head, heart and hands. I never figured it out but did the triad themes head/heart/hands ever have anything to do with the see/hear/speak no more symbolism? 
> 
> Loving the art style though, you beat me to it @G I just found their stuff today a few hours before you posted


Wow Kiwi you might just be right! Cool stuff, cool stuff.  :Cool: 

I was so happy when I stumbled upon this artist's page. Beautiful stuff and moreover they draw all the things I like to see aaaa.

----------


## RedBird

> To me, it's the original one we first saw Jason in.


I cant decide, but I do have a special place in my heart for the original RH outfit with the black leather jacket.

----------


## RedBird

> There`s nice stuff. I like the orgy scene.


Look personally I don't like the orgy scene, less because of the actual nature of what it is, (there really isn't anything wrong or feels wrong about an adult like Talia having polygamous sex) rather I dislike it because narratively and timing wise, it feels like an oh so convenient way to characterize Talia as 'the bad woman' by implying that yeah, she could NEVER be as good as Selina guys, she cant have been a better candidate as Bruces wife because look at all the 'dirty' sex that she has. The general timing and placement of a scene like THAT while we know that Bruce is now committed to a different woman feels like a fall back on really tired tropes that characterize female villains as promiscuous, its feels like a poor practice of writing that strongly reveals that the writer cant work in shades of grey and cant support his own narrative (Bruces love for Selina) without changing or exaggerating aspects around it (inadvertently demonizing the 'other woman'). Which is strange since there are already plenty of reasons to be put off by Talia, so taking a jab at her sexuality and using that as a method of showing her as impure feels like the least of Batman's worries. Its a call to attention to an aspect that shouldn't have been called to attention, if a powerful reveal was needed, then a reveal of her while she is, say, decapitating a traitorous League member would have felt more impactful since it is violent (which we know she is) and is also a major no no for Bruce who is against killing, so there you would already have your incentive for why she cant be with Bruce while touching on something _actually_ important like differing morals as opposed to revealing her in an 'orgy' during this _marriage_ arc, which only implies she is bad for having 'sex'?


But colour me curious,  why do you like it?

----------


## Alycat

> Just call it what it is; Crappy fan-fiction.


I mean it can be crappy, but it's not fan-fiction because of its official and well it's all fiction right?

----------


## RedBird

Not Jason, but a mention in Gotham Garage #7 


Dawww Kara thinks Jasons cute. 
Also Dick IS cute, but he should really tone down the self assuredness, its not attractive hun.


For context, Dick is acting as a sidekick to catwoman btw

----------


## Aahz

Does anybody now how long Gotham City Garage is going to run?

----------


## G-Potion

> Dawww Kara thinks Jasons cute. 
> Also Dick IS cute, but he should really tone down the self assuredness, its not attractive hun.


Wha! I love this! Hopefully Jason will be back and teaming with Kara next time.  :Embarrassment: 

How is Dick written for the rest of the issue, Red?

----------


## RedBird

Well not too much to say in terms of characterization, these panels were the most telling but

*spoilers:*
He used to work for Batman (who is evil in this verse) before he stole a bike from him and became a rider, and in this issue basically Kara Selina and Dick go on some kind of mission together to screw over Luthor, things go kinda sour, Selina abandons Dick and Kara, in her Catwoman way of course and Kara and Dick ride away from whatever facility they were attempting to break into.
*end of spoilers* There two more panels I want to post just for the super tongue in cheek joke in there of Catwoman/Nightwing but I'm honestly not sure how many panels mods allow you to post. Anyone care to fill me in?

----------


## dietrich

> Well not too much to say in terms of characterization, these panels were the most telling but
> 
> *spoilers:*
> He used to work for Batman (who is evil in this verse) before he stole a bike from him and became a rider, and in this issue basically Kara Selina and Dick go on some kind of mission together to screw over Luthor, things go kinda sour, Selina abandons Dick and Kara, in her Catwoman way of course and Kara and Dick ride away from whatever facility they were attempting to break into.
> *end of spoilers* There two more panels I want to post just for the super tongue in cheek joke in there of Catwoman/Nightwing but I'm honestly not sure how many panels mods allow you to post. Anyone care to fill me in?


I believe you can get away with a few I've posted a max of 3 panels i one go.

----------


## dietrich

Watched Happy Death Day last night and found it to be a fun movie. More a who did it/horror hybrid.
The lead is very good and the movie is nicely layered.
I hope it does well but I fear that most are missing the point that the movie is about the girls personal development rather than time skips and killers .

Nicely done Scott.

----------


## Aioros22

Haha sorry Dick, Kara is more infatuated with the other rider. Snicks.

----------


## RedBird

> I believe you can get away with a few I've posted a max of 3 panels i one go.


Cool thanks, if thats the case then here

The three are escaping and Catwoman traps them in the room with the killer robot.





Thats Kara warning him off screen btw

Okay sorry for the lack of Jay on this last post.

----------


## G-Potion

> Watched Happy Death Day last night and found it to be a fun movie. More a who did it/horror hybrid.
> The lead is very good and the movie is nicely layered.
> I hope it does well but I fear that most are missing the point that the movie is about the girls personal development rather than time skips and killers .
> 
> Nicely done Scott.


That's great and am happy for Lobdell! The film will be available in my country on the 27th. Looking forward to it.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Haha sorry Dick, Kara is more infatuated with the other rider. Snicks.


A win is a win regardless of battlefields.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

@RedBird: Good stuff! I'm tempted to pick this up again. Series has been surprisingly good.

----------


## Aioros22

GCG has been a delicacy in a major event market place. It`s self contained, it`s a small project but it`s packed with easter eggs every issue in.

----------


## Aioros22

Just to wrap up what bothered me the most out of #33 (I`ll talk about the orgy page later and why I liked it) and that is the Jason and Duke page and it`s not even because Robin or NoRobin, that`s a mere tehnical nitpick. The whole exchange sounds off and fake for several reasons, key among them are Jason caring who Bruce marries. He wouldn`t give two shits about it and certainly over someone he`s known. Chief of all is the falseness in Jason bringing the villain bit to the argument when he, better than anyone else, knows to a certain extent (which wouldn`t include extreme Joker cases) that villain and hero are spectrums of the same line. He knows this in a way none of the others do, not even Alfred, not even Bruce. Two, the familiarity with Selina. The only former Robin that I recall who dealt exactly with he plot point in a story about how Catwoman was a romantic bad influence to Batman was Jason (pre crisis) and at the end of that story t_hey make peace with each other_. 

Thirdly, if he`s supposed to react like that due to the implication of Selina in the death of 300 innocents lives, it still rings off. Without Oracle, and this is something you`ve seen even Pre Flashpoint, and after Batman, Red Hood works the most widespread net of information out of all of them regarding the Underworld. He would at the very least suspect something fishy with the story out of the gate.

----------


## Aahz

> Watched Happy Death Day last night and found it to be a fun movie. More a who did it/horror hybrid.
> The lead is very good and the movie is nicely layered.
> I hope it does well but I fear that most are missing the point that the movie is about the girls personal development rather than time skips and killers .
> 
> Nicely done Scott.


According to Box office Mojo the movie had a budget of $4.8 million and made allready $34 million world wide ($29 million domestically), so it is allready a success.

----------


## RedBird

> Wha! I love this! Hopefully Jason will be back and teaming with Kara next time.


I mean I was surprised that the Red Hood gang and Jason were mentioned again at all, I had thought they had used up their purpose narrative wise, however, considering how fearful Big Barda was of them and the fact that Dick thinks its impressive and brag-worthy to describe his escape from them, they must be a bigger deal in this universe than I first expected, so yeah, hopefully that means we'll be seeing more of them and Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> According to Box office Mojo the movie had a budget of $4.8 million and made allready $34 million world wide ($29 million domestically), so it is allready a success.


Thanks! Very good news indeed!

----------


## dietrich

> According to Box office Mojo the movie had a budget of $4.8 million and made allready $34 million world wide ($29 million domestically), so it is allready a success.


I'm happy to hear that. The director mentioned about the sequel going cosmic delving further into the Time skips hopefully Lobdell writes that as well. Comic fans give him grief but I find him solid with good ideas.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I just hope that Lobdell's budding movie career doesn't means he has to stop writing comics.

----------


## kiwiliko

Cute appearances of Jason in Scribblenauts unmasked #12

----------


## G-Potion

> Cute appearances of Jason in Scribblenauts unmasked #12


ahaha too cute!

Even though he now loses against a ...cat?  :Stick Out Tongue:   Granted, this one must be _super_.

----------


## RedBird

> ahaha too cute!
> 
> Even though he now loses against a ...cat?   Granted, this one must be _super_.


Yeah its a super cat, though these panels aren't in succession and he actually befriends the super kitty after it attacks him. Happy endings for all  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

There is no shame in being defeated by a Super-Cat.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Haha you know what I anticipated this reaction from you.   It comes off as more symbolic than shippy to me though, and regardless, I admire the artistry of the pic and couldn't resist not including it.


The art is damn good. What's actually happening...Not so much.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Damn you, semantics.

----------


## G-Potion

Why does he look so sad in the first pic? Is it because Kory is ignoring him or because he can't actually drink with the helmet on?  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> The art is damn good. What's actually happening...Not so much.


I think its interesting to try understanding the meaning behind, like how Kiwiliko came up with the the no see/no speak/no hear theory.

----------


## RedBird

> Why does he look so sad in the first pic? Is it because Kory is ignoring him or because he can't actually drink with the helmet on?


Its not made clear since that page is just part of one big spread but, Ha, honestly I didnt even consider that, I think you may be right, he cant drink it  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

Not that he cares about not being able to drink :P







Power Play [X]

----------


## G-Potion

> Not that he cares about not being able to drink


Priceless!  :Big Grin:

----------


## dietrich

> Why does he look so sad in the first pic? Is it because Kory is ignoring him or because he can't actually drink with the helmet on?


It's a double whammy of sadness  :Smile:

----------


## dietrich

> Not that he cares about not being able to drink :P
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Power Play [X]


Nice
love the wet jacket detail

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Lovely

https://twitter.com/kmru_doodles/sta...43597283639297

----------


## G-Potion

> Lovely
> 
> https://twitter.com/kmru_doodles/sta...43597283639297


That's a really cute cake. And I love all the Jason figures on the sides.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Decided to look around for some more and found this Jason marshmallow haha. So cute.

https://twitter.com/kmru_doodles/sta...41588577771520

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/kmru_doodles/sta...40088418549760



https://twitter.com/kmru_doodles/sta...30193028751360

----------


## Aahz

> Guys, what are your favorite costume designs for Red Hood?


Non of the costumes is imo really perfect but I would rank them like this.

1. Arkham Knight
2. Original from UtRH Comic
3. Mederi
4. Rebirth
5. New 52

With the Injustice gear system one could probably puzzle something together, that would be on top of the list, but non of the shaders is really perfect imo.

----------


## G-Potion

> Non of the costumes is imo really perfect but I would rank them like this.
> 
> 1. Arkham Knight
> 2. Original from UtRH Comic
> 3. Mederi
> 4. Rebirth
> 5. New 52
> 
> With the Injustice gear system one could probably puzzle something together, that would be on top of the list, but non of the shaders is really perfect imo.


What would you add to/remove from existing outfits to make them perfect?

----------


## Aahz

I think Arkham Knight is the closest, I would just like a Helemt with Eyes (that face lass Helmets looks cool in video games but imo not in comics) and the Hood more line in Injustice (the one in AK one is connected to the jacket and not the suit), and some amor on shoulders and for arms  (maybe also the chest black instead of grey, but that is maybe to dark).

design elements I like are:
- colors just Black and Red and maybe dark grey
- black Leather Jacket 
- the hood over the helmet
- no "spandex"
- shoulder armor
- the fore arm guards with Batman style blades
- the red stripes he has on some legs in injustice

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Guys, what are your favorite costume designs for Red Hood?


I'd rank them as follows:

1. Rebirth
2. UTRH
3. Arkham Knight
4. N52
.
.
.
.
5. Pre-Flashpoint (during the period that Dick was Batman. I liked the costume but hated the helmet)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
6. Medri's (sorry but I hated everything about it, especially the vest)

----------


## RedBird

> I'd rank them as follows:
> 
> 5. Pre-Flashpoint (during the period that Dick was Batman. I liked the costume but hated the helmet)


We talking Morrison RedHead Red Hood with the boot and capes or Winnick RedHead Red Hood with the black jacket. (Also the one that appeared in batman and robin convergence.)

----------


## G-Potion

> I think Arkham Knight is the closest, I would just like a Helemt with Eyes (that face lass Helmets looks cool in video games but imo not in comics) and the Hood more line in Injustice (the one in AK one is connected to the jacket and not the suit), and some amor on shoulders and for arms  (maybe also the chest black instead of grey, but that is maybe to dark).
> 
> design elements I like are:
> - colors just Black and Red and maybe dark grey
> - black Leather Jacket 
> - the hood over the helmet
> - no "spandex"
> - shoulder armor
> - the fore arm guards with Batman style blades
> - the red stripes he has on some legs in injustice


Agree with most of your points. I've never been fond of the red stripes on his legs though. That said, now that I look back at some of my favorites which are UTRH and Soy's design, I think I would prefer more white elements than red. His hood makes enough of a "red" statement already so I'd want the rest of his color to be dominantly black/grey and white.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> guillem_march#Working a bit on #Sunday. This will be a #painted #cover. Let's see how it turns out, I'm deciding how to proceed on the go. Ideally this should be an #oil #painting on a #canvas, but I'll do a #gouache painting on #paper instead.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BajKgn4hP3O/

Oh and guys, is Denis *Medri* could you guys get his name right at least?

----------


## RedBird

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BajKgn4hP3O/


 Ah yes, saw this before. LOVE the size difference between Artemis and Harley.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BajKgn4hP3O/


Can't wait to see the finished product.  :Smile: 




> Oh and guys, is Denis *Medri* could you guys get his name right at least?


*check back post* *breathe a sigh of relief*

Not guilty yeeeah.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Anyone in the mood for some light and adorable fic? 

Faith, Trust, and a Little Pixie Dust by tamaraneankori

http://archiveofourown.org/works/12462663

----------


## RedBird

> The sadest part of this situation is that is just sligthly better of what we have before the reboot.


(I dont wanna clog the Damian thread with unrelated Jason opinions, so I'm moving my reply here btw)

YUP :/

The basic understanding of even just the characters moral standing, let alone the more complex nature of his thought process and personality/history (after their second introduction in UTRH with Winick) is already only progressing and being understood under the pen of writers at a *snails pace*. To then see that progression taken backwards by writers like King or rather not understood at all, irks me that much more. I've loved this character from their introduction as Robin  onwards, but I'm just sick of bad interpretations or ooc development for a character that has already been misrepresented enough under writers that either didnt care for them in the first place (ala death of robin and that fallout) or are indifferent enough as to not even understand their base characteristics. It was tiring enough watching dc flounder about for years after his return with no understanding of what his appeal even was to audiences, to now see any kind of denigration after so many years of waiting for some good, well thought out content for him is so disappointing. Lobdells rhato Rebirth is probably one of the closest examples of Jason feeling in character with his history as Red Hood represented AND with acknowledging the person he was as Robin and as Jason Todd, something even Winick was lacking in his work imo. 

Along with HIS recent work, its been nice to see things like AK and Injustice 2 which have reaffirmed that yes, the interpretation of Jason that I have been waiting for isn't actually that hard to grasp nor is it a mysterious disillusion I have tricked myself into, its pretty straight forward. DC just suck at understanding their own characters, in other news, water is wet. :P

----------


## dietrich

Don't get  how it's so difficult for writers to have an basic understand of what the core and personality of a long standing character. With Jason it should fairly easy one can just look to his solo with the definitive writer who has been solid consistent characterisation for some time now.

It's not acceptable. And it seems to be the Robins with an edge that get the short end of the stick when it comes to this problem.
You would think that a character that has so many layers and such depth would be something they would relish writing since there's so much a writer can play with but no they phone it in.

This last issue of Batman was ridiculous. Aside from going for fanfic versions of the Robins he added the Ace thing. That really pissed me off. A writer should not use his position on the main title to troll. Tom King isn't respectful of characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ah yes, saw this before. LOVE the size difference between Artemis and Harley.


Artemis being the Amazon Barda is totally my asthetic.

----------


## Aioros22

Related to my favorite Red Hood designs: 

Arkham Knight`s Red Hood. Just savage and daring with all the white and red simbolism, like a reborn angel. 

Red Hood ronin by Soy.

Rebirth.

Winnick`s Under The Red Hood/Green Arrow minimal but effective palette.

Batman: Under The Red Hood animated darker pallette.

Injustice 2 (this one is particular because depending the gear it could be my favorite of all or not). 

Rocafort/Gleason New52.

Convergence/Winnick`s Batman&Robin (Black and white suit with jacket and standard* helmet/mask). 


* Well, as standard as his mask with no visible eyes can be which is a design element also used in AK.

----------


## G-Potion

> Lobdells rhato Rebirth is probably one of the closest examples of Jason feeling in character with his history as Red Hood represented *AND with acknowledging the person he was as Robin and as Jason Todd*, something even Winick was lacking in his work imo.


I'll probably comment later with something more subtantial but for now so much yes for this!! I think people who complain about how Jason has been watered down don't really care about this aspect of his character.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> We talking Morrison RedHead Red Hood with the boot and capes or Winnick RedHead Red Hood with the black jacket. (Also the one that appeared in batman and robin convergence.)


The Morrison one with the cape. I liked the overall design and the color scheme of it but I thought the helmet was a terrible design.

(For some reason I thought that Winnick one was basically like his UTRH costume. I guess it must of been enough like it that I didn't notice a difference between the two.)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BajKgn4hP3O/
> 
> Oh and guys, is Denis *Medri* could you guys get his name right at least?


Sorry, I'm a terrible speller especially in the case of a rarely seen name. In any case I was only off by one letter so that's actually good for me on that front. 

Edit: I also went back and edited the post so that it is spelled corrrectly.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Injustice 2 (this one is particular because depending the gear it could be my favorite of all or not).


Where would you rank the default Injustice 2 costume?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Don't get  how it's so difficult for writers to have an basic understand of what the core and personality of a long standing character. With Jason it should fairly easy one can just look to his solo with the definitive writer who has been solid consistent characterisation for some time now.
> 
> It's not acceptable. And it seems to be the Robins with an edge that get the short end of the stick when it comes to this problem.
> You would think that a character that has so many layers and such depth would be something they would relish writing since there's so much a writer can play with but no they phone it in.
> 
> This last issue of Batman was ridiculous. Aside from going for fanfic versions of the Robins he added the Ace thing. That really pissed me off. A writer should not use his position on the main title to troll. Tom King isn't respectful of characters.


These things are why there really should be a character bible available to writers and I've been saying that for months. Of coarse then people shoot me down saying that writers don't have time to do basic research these days. Honestly they need to _make_ the time for research. It would really help with character consistency across the board if they did so. It might also be useful to those writers if they would actually talk to the people who are the ones primarily responsible for a character to get an idea about who they are, what skills they have and other details like that. In this day and age of internet and social media it really shouldn't be that difficult to do both of these.

----------


## EMarie

> These things are why there really should be a character bible available to writers and I've been saying that for months. Of coarse then people shoot me down saying that writers don't have time to do basic research these days. Honestly they need to _make_ the time for research. It would really help with character consistency across the board if they did so. It might also be useful to those writers if they would actually talk to the people who are the ones primarily responsible for a character to get an idea about who they are, what skills they have and other details like that. In this day and age of internet and social media it really shouldn't be that difficult to do both of these.


Exactly. There was some talk about this when Priest did the Lazarus Contract and how he wrote Damian. I'm not going to talk about the story/Damian since this is a Jason thread but the idea was that he could only read so many recent issues not older stuff, that canon is kind of a hindrance and the editors told him they liked having Damian a certain way. I think editorial is a big problem with not enforcing better characterizations. Are some writers lazy or biased ? Sure and that needs to be addressed. (BTW I'm not talking about Priest himself just some of the stuff he mentioned.)

Personally I'd prefer if Jason didn't appear or acted like wallpaper in the background rather than more bad characterizations.

You bring up good points. I was surprised that there apparently aren't character bibles. Right now Lobdell is the best and longest writer for the character. Others should be asking him what the character voice is. I'm trying to get family members into the character and they have no idea who Jason Todd is personality wise because of appearances in other books they read.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Thing is, that is supposed to be what Editors are for. Character bibles are only needed for licensing.

----------


## magpieM

> I think Arkham Knight is the closest, I would just like a Helemt with Eyes (that face lass Helmets looks cool in video games but imo not in comics)...


I agree with you. My favourite design is the AK faceless red helmet + red armor that appear right after he tossed the damaged blue helmet aside in the game. The RH DLC is cool, too (some of you call it "Jason's DIY disaster"...). But those won't work in 2D comics/animations. In 2D I think the UTH (bamboozled) and Soy's design are both great.

I know that the "hood" does not necessarily mean an actual hoody but more of the idea or image of "hoodlum". But I'm OK if Jason occasionally wears a red hoody.

----------


## EMarie

> Thing is, that is supposed to be what Editors are for. Character bibles are only needed for licensing.


True but even if they did I don't think all editors know all details pertaining to all the characters. Detailed character bibles would let you know the moral stances, personalities, as well as when the learned certain abilities. The thing with Jason is that he doesn't have as much material to cover as Dick and Tim. His post-Crisis to now stories, the ones written in character, aren't as vast. One would think it wouldn't be as hard to figure out.

I'm constantly impressed when Lobdell shows he knows his stuff by bringing up things from other writers like Winick (the duffel bag mention in Red Hood/Arsenal) and Ma Gunn from Collins. Jason should be a gold mine for writers because he already has such a rich but barely tapped history. So far Lobdell has been the only writer that I'm aware of to even talk about his family in any detail.

----------


## Caivu

New Soy piece.

Screenshot_20171023-220616.jpg

----------


## RedBird

Soys Jason is getting younger and younger.

Also I love the quote he added, 'To be or not to be'.
I wonder if the team have noticed the Shakespearean vibe that Jason holding his helmet tends to evoke even in previous comics, or if its just coincidence. Either way, NICE.

----------


## G-Potion

Wow he looks so soft like this.

----------


## G-Potion

> True but even if they did I don't think all editors know all details pertaining to all the characters. Detailed character bibles would let you know the moral stances, personalities, as well as when the learned certain abilities. The thing with Jason is that he doesn't have as much material to cover as Dick and Tim. His post-Crisis to now stories, the ones written in character, aren't as vast. One would think it wouldn't be as hard to figure out.


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for character bibles when writers screw up so badly without them. On the other hand though, how extensive do you think should these bibles be without preventing writers to express a certain point of view or some degree of artistic liberty? Things like history with other characters and abilities are at least straightforward, but personalities on the other hand are very hard to put down I think. Especially for characters with layers like Jason. Even moral stance is not an easy thing to put down when it comes to this character as he himself is still moving around the spectrum to find his place and is often so flexible about it... 

Yeah basically, what I want to ask is how would you guys describe the format of the bible for it to work?

----------


## G-Potion

> (I dont wanna clog the Damian thread with unrelated Jason opinions, so I'm moving my reply here btw)
> 
> YUP :/
> 
> The basic understanding of even just the characters moral standing, let alone the more complex nature of his thought process and personality/history (after their second introduction in UTRH with Winick) is already only progressing and being understood under the pen of writers at a *snails pace*.


Honestly, by the time most writers start to understand some fundamentals of the character, Lobdell has already progressed him far and beyond. It's impressive the amount of development Jason has had after RHATO v1, RH/A and Rebirth. Who's stagnant? Certainly not him.

----------


## G-Potion

For some of you who have concerns. I can't wait to see what he means by this.

----------


## RedBird

> For some of you who have concerns. I can't wait to see what he means by this.


Jim Lees Jason is one of my favorites admittedly, but lol "why not make it like in Batman vol.1 #618". Where he was still emotionally distraught and tried to scar a kid in response? Look I know I'm exaggerating but I feel like for some fans, the fundamental _hurt_ under Jasons aggressive behaviour is sometimes ignored for simply how 'badass' he looks. I wouldn't mind more savage moments, but rebirth has made leaps and bounds into making Jason and his viewpoints much more understandable even for people who were never fans of him to begin with. 

But yeah regardless, now I'm super curious for whats in the next issue, I didn't think I could be this excited for a suicide squad crossover.

Also you have to love Soys reply which is basically, 'Um no you're wrong, my character is still cool, in fact he is cooler now than before, you'll see.'

----------


## magpieM

> For some of you who have concerns. I can't wait to see what he means by this.


Now I'm really hyped!

----------


## Aioros22

Fandom sometimes is like that itch in the balls that doesn`t go away. 

And that`s all the answer it deserves from my end.

----------


## Aioros22

> Soys Jason is getting younger and younger.
> 
> Also I love the quote he added, 'To be or not to be'.
> I wonder if the team have noticed the Shakespearean vibe that Jason holding his helmet tends to evoke even in previous comics, or if its just coincidence. Either way, NICE.


Oh, there`s no coincidence, Winnick`s Jason had clear cut demonstrations of theathically  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Also you have to love Soys reply which is basically, 'Um no you're wrong, my character is still cool, in fact he is cooler now than before, you'll see.'


Yeah thats a good reply. And I trust what this team says more than anyone from other books says.

----------


## RedBird

> Oh, there`s no coincidence, Winnick`s Jason had clear cut demonstrations of theathically


I know! That moment in Lost days was possibly the most telling and if the new team are reusing that symbolism, even for just online sketches, then kudos to them. Just goes to show how well this team understands all the previous text for Jason. We already were aware of Lobdells deep dive into Jasons history, but now even Soy is tapping into it.

----------


## EMarie

> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for character bibles when writers screw up so badly without them. On the other hand though, how extensive do you think should these bibles be without preventing writers to express a certain point of view or some degree of artistic liberty? Things like history with other characters and abilities are at least straightforward, but personalities on the other hand are very hard to put down I think. Especially for characters with layers like Jason. Even moral stance is not an easy thing to put down when it comes to this character as he himself is still moving around the spectrum to find his place and is often so flexible about it... 
> 
> Yeah basically, what I want to ask is how would you guys describe the format of the bible for it to work?


I tend to think of a far more extensive version of those character encyclopedias. With summaries and panels from the comics to back them up. I recall Winick for example saying Jason hated school when he last wrote him before the reboot. But if you look back Jason actually loved school. There's a panel revealing his high grades and a story about him going out of his way to do an extra credit assignment which he used to solve a crime at the museum. It also shows he's not a dumb jock or lazy like some writers portray him.

The same could be done to show what his self esteem is liken and other traits. As well as showing or mentioning how he's developed. Like how Jason grew out of his "don't call us a team" attitude from the start of the first series to suggesting they work together to defeat Black Mask when Artemis didn't want to listen to him. Granted I fear it might be hard for some writers to get out of the "he was a bad Robin" mind frame even with evidence since there's years with him being victim blamed in comics.

----------


## G-Potion

Art by https://twitter.com/Draw_seon

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thing is, that is supposed to be what Editors are for. Character bibles are only needed for licensing.


That should be their job but they obviously aren't doing it so it so a character bible could be a solution to the problem of character misrepresentation in books outside their main ones. At least it would give writers a resource beyond depending on inconsistent editors.

----------


## TheCape

I feel that editors barely do their jobs this days, i mean it was never perfect, but there was a level of consistency in the 90s and eaely 2000s that is barely seen this days.

----------


## JasonTodd428

@G Basically what Emarie says. I'd also have it be an electronic resource that is downloadable, printable and that is kept up to date.

@TheCape I was told once that an editor's job is not at all what I thought it was compared to other media. Make of that what you will.

----------


## okiedokiewo

I mentioned this in the White Knight thread but don't remember if I saw it here.

From a CBR article:

*In Issue #1, as far as the Bat Family is concerned, we get Barbara Gordon and we get Dick Grayson. Are other Bat Family members coming up as the story progresses? Who is populating your Gotham City?
*_
Jason Todd is going to make an appearance. As far as the Family is concerned on Batman’s side, that’s about it. But the villains — they’re all going to be worked into the book. While Batman and Joker are having this couple’s quarrel, all the other villains are free to do whatever they want, so that becomes an issue._

----------


## RedBird

> I mentioned this in the White Knight thread but don't remember if I saw it here.
> 
> From a CBR article:
> 
> *In Issue #1, as far as the Bat Family is concerned, we get Barbara Gordon and we get Dick Grayson. Are other Bat Family members coming up as the story progresses? Who is populating your Gotham City?
> *_
> Jason Todd is going to make an appearance. As far as the Family is concerned on Batmans side, thats about it. But the villains  theyre all going to be worked into the book. While Batman and Joker are having this couples quarrel, all the other villains are free to do whatever they want, so that becomes an issue._


uhhhh, I don't know how to feel about this. Jason doesn't make appearances (usually) unless the writer can bank on the whole joker killing robin thing, I'm guessing since this is topsy tervy world that Jason is gonna be the evil guy tormenting Joker in this? That, or maybe the Joker accidentally hurting or killing him will be one of Batmans justifications for becoming unhinged in this verse?

----------


## okiedokiewo

> uhhhh, I don't know how to feel about this. Jason doesn't make appearances (usually) unless the writer can bank on the whole joker killing robin thing, I'm guessing since this is topsy tervy world that Jason is gonna be the evil guy tormenting Joker in this? That, or maybe the Joker accidentally hurting or killing him will be one of Batmans justifications for becoming unhinged in this verse?


Yeah, this universe seems very...odd. Not sure what will be done with him, but it also just says "appearance," so idk.

----------


## G-Potion

> uhhhh, I don't know how to feel about this. Jason doesn't make appearances (usually) unless the writer can bank on the whole joker killing robin thing, I'm guessing since this is topsy tervy world that Jason is gonna be the evil guy tormenting Joker in this? That, or maybe the Joker accidentally hurting or killing him will be one of Batmans justifications for becoming unhinged in this verse?


If this means more excuses to victim blame him the second time, I'm gonna flip.

----------


## G-Potion

> I feel that editors barely do their jobs this days, i mean it was never perfect, but there was a level of consistency in the 90s and eaely 2000s that is barely seen this days.


Credits where it's due however, I think the last editor helped elevate the hell out of RHATO in term of quality. But Lobdell has always done his homework so consistency and canon compliance are rarely a problem in his book.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah, this universe seems very...odd. Not sure what will be done with him, but it also just says "appearance," so idk.





> If this means more excuses to victim blame him the second time, I'm gonna flip.


Well funny thing is, the writer says that its just Dick, Babs and Jason are the only batfam members in this, and then claims he is a big fan of BTAS, (which honestly makes me kinda giddy, like that he acknowledged BTAS and went with Todd instead of Drake as the Robin for his verse. He knows, he knows) So does that feel like more evidence of a joker hurting Jason and causing an angry Batman? After all, this verse doesnt seem like a straight up earth 3 evil version, Babs and Dick dont seem too unhinged, it looks more like Bruce is more violent and destructive than he seems and they are just along for the ride.

----------


## RedBird

> Credits where it's due however, I think the last editor helped elevate the hell out of RHATO in term of quality. But Lobdell has always done his homework so consistency and canon compliance are rarely a problem in his book.


Speaking of, what are the earliest Lobdell easter eggs, signifying that he did his homework on this character in rhato (I mean pre or post crisis Robin stuff btw). I mean, I remember 'the man who has everything' reference in rhato v1 #14. Was there anything earlier, I can't recall at this moment.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well funny thing is, the writer says that its just Dick, Babs and Jason are the only batfam members in this, and then claims he is a big fan of BTAS, (which honestly makes me kinda giddy, like that he acknowledged BTAS and went with Todd instead of Drake as the Robin for his verse. He knows, he knows) So does that feel like more evidence of a joker hurting Jason and causing an angry Batman? After all, this verse doesnt seem like a straight up earth 3 evil version, Babs and Dick dont seem too unhinged, it looks more like Bruce is more violent and destructive than he seems and they are just along for the ride.


I think someone posted an interview somewhere that Red Hood is not gonna be in? Man would be a waste because of this new Batman/Red Hood dynamic.

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of, what are the earliest Lobdell easter eggs, signifying that he did his homework on this character in rhato (I mean pre or post crisis Robin stuff btw). I mean, I remember 'the man who has everything' reference in rhato v1 #14. Was there anything earlier, I can't recall at this moment.


RHATO#2 or something when he was on the plane and the attendant remembered his last order, giving him a coke (reference to DITF).

----------


## RedBird

> I think someone posted an interview somewhere that Red Hood is not gonna be in? Man would be a waste because of this new Batman/Red Hood dynamic.


If thats true then my theory is probably right and its gonna be a dead Robin that will be mourned and used as a reasoning for Batmans anger and destructive behaviour.

----------


## RedBird

> RHATO#2 or something when he was on the plane and the attendant remembered his last order, giving him a coke (reference to DITF).


Thats right, I completely forgot about Isabel. Although in all fairness DITF is the most well known Jason Robin story, not the most obscure or well researched reference, so like, you get half a point for that one Mr Lobdell :P. gimme that obscure 'only die hard fans will get this' nonsense of a reference.

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of, what are the earliest Lobdell easter eggs, signifying that he did his homework on this character in rhato (I mean pre or post crisis Robin stuff btw). I mean, I remember 'the man who has everything' reference in rhato v1 #14. Was there anything earlier, I can't recall at this moment.


If you have the time, the RHATO reviews at exploringthetimelab.blogspot.com are especially good at getting all those easter eggs.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

I mean, it's still referencing DITF, but the details in that issue are so subtle you get giddy finding about it nonetheless. A lot more here:

https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...ws-2.html#more

----------


## RedBird

> If you have the time, the RHATO reviews at exploringthetimelab.blogspot.com are especially good at getting all those easter eggs.


Ay Cheers,  :Big Grin:  I haven't found the rhato easter egg section yet, but I'm reading the bloggers distaste for Kings writing and his characterization of Jason. Considering this response and the divided responses for issue 33 even on this forum, I'm glad to see that this characterization of Jason is at least being acknowledged as OFF and OOC.

----------


## G-Potion

Seriously when is Lobdell gonna bring back The Cult? I need it back in Jason's history.

----------


## RedBird

> Seriously when is Lobdell gonna bring back The Cult? I need it back in Jason's history.


OMG YES! Please, even just a passing reference will fuel my soul

(also I'm still gonna be asking for Nocturna and that storyline back as well)

----------


## G-Potion

> Ay Cheers,  I haven't found the rhato easter egg section yet, but I'm reading the bloggers distaste for Kings writing and his characterization of Jason. Considering this response and the divided responses for issue 33 even on this forum, I'm glad to see that this characterization of Jason is at least being acknowledged as OFF and OOC.


My safe haven before I joined here. It was the only blog that was positive about the first RHATO (besides Dark's reviews). The easter eggs are listed in their reviews so you have like 50+ articles to read if you don't want to miss anything. :P

----------


## SpentShrimp

> For some of you who have concerns. I can't wait to see what he means by this.


Jim Lee's Jason can't be topped.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jim Lee's Jason can't be topped.


I don't think he meant the art, more like how the character is written which Soy gave a pretty good answer to.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ay Cheers,  I haven't found the rhato easter egg section yet, but I'm reading the bloggers distaste for Kings writing and his characterization of Jason. Considering this response and the divided responses for issue 33 even on this forum, I'm glad to see that this characterization of Jason is at least being acknowledged as OFF and OOC.


Even though there's not as much heat, there's a portion of tumblr considering it OOC as well.

----------


## RedBird

> Even though there's not as much heat, there's a portion of tumblr considering it OOC as well.


Good to know, it was harder to keep the ooc characterizations away when he was a corpse in the ground, I think now that Lobdell has established a strong vision for Jason, its now getting harder for writers to get away with just using the character as whatever plot device or archetype they need to be, regardless if it makes sense or not. Good to know that the audience is not as easily swayed by the tainting of lazy writers.
Now if White Knight can _just_ keep away from the victim blaming narrative I may just have to add another Jason appearance to my collection.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, so he`s showing up in _White Knight_ after all? 

Could be an interesting cameo/appearance if Murphy doesn`t go the easy route.

----------


## G-Potion

Another meaningless guest appearances of the Robins in Tec'. Can't have a reunion scene, no, have to be beaten up by TimBat just to drive the point home of how his brain, hack, cheat code, whatever, trumps over everything.

----------


## Aioros22

Tec was also bananas but in a more hilarious genuine way because you know Tynion isn`t pulling a Twitter thing. 

a) Timbats claims he`s trained against every single one of the tree in combat for fifteen years (simulador of course) because he never felt he could measure up to them otherwise. 

b) Despite this, we don`t see anything, it`s off panel so chances are, superhackingTM strikes again. 

c) Did he just hit the dog too? 

d) Nobody picks Jason up. See, he`s totally the outcast who gets up on his own two legs  :Wink: 

e) Jason has the best line by pointing out _again_ what a classic fvck Bruce Wayne is. Just for that I excuse any Future whatever beating younger versions (besides, it`s nothing new, older BatmanJason from another Earth was leading the Jl and beat down "our" Jay in less than a page because he could read/perceive hundreds of possible moves before he even started the fight).

----------


## G-Potion

Haha I was like, _really, again???_. Points for Jason for always being the voice against Bruce's BS.

----------


## Aioros22

The outcast being the voice of reason in a dysfunctional family. 

Makes perfect sense.

----------


## G-Potion

Dexter Soy cheers me up with his awesome twitter replies.

----------


## Aioros22

Soy soloi`ng fans with charm is a delight to read.

----------


## G-Potion

So on the topic of Jason's theatricality a page back, have you guys seen this? 

http://daggerpen.tumblr.com/post/162452687411

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Rise

> I mentioned this in the White Knight thread but don't remember if I saw it here.
> 
> From a CBR article:
> 
> *In Issue #1, as far as the Bat Family is concerned, we get Barbara Gordon and we get Dick Grayson. Are other Bat Family members coming up as the story progresses? Who is populating your Gotham City?
> *_
> Jason Todd is going to make an appearance. As far as the Family is concerned on Batman’s side, that’s about it. But the villains — they’re all going to be worked into the book. While Batman and Joker are having this couple’s quarrel, all the other villains are free to do whatever they want, so that becomes an issue._


Interesting. WK is really....weird. So, I'm kinda curious to see what role Jason is going to play in this.

----------


## dietrich



----------


## Aioros22

That Under The Red Hood scene is crack, I haven`t noticed the sleeves detail before. 

You gotta respect someone so extra.

----------


## G-Potion

> That Under The Red Hood scene is crack, I haven`t noticed the sleeves detail before. 
> 
> You gotta respect someone so extra.


I mean, the things that he chooses to go at length for is totally more admirable than several someones in the family. :P

----------


## Aioros22

Man, all that talk about #33 I missed the coolest bit!

----------


## Aahz

> a) Timbats claims he`s trained against every single one of the tree in combat for fifteen years (simulador of course) because he never felt he could measure up to them otherwise.


Beating all three simultaneously is despite this complete nonsense.

Abd it is really time that they are giving Jason better showing and do something for hsi reputation  :Mad:

----------


## kiwiliko

> That Under The Red Hood scene is crack, I haven`t noticed the sleeves detail before. 
> 
> You gotta respect someone so extra.


Even looking back at some of the cutscenes in Arkham Knight. He most definitely spent a good deal of time just sitting in a corner somewhere waiting for Bats to come in so his dramatic entrances can be timed perfectly. For however much I tend to dislike fanon I also have to say being the very extra member of the family is actually pretty enjoyable to see.

----------


## kiwiliko

Twitter is having a loooot of fun with Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Four, Bat Hound was there too. 

There`s noting damaging about Jason`s reputation. #Hackerchamp beat all of them at the same time by blowing up the whole floor, that`s _all_ we see and none of them are out yet. The implication that #Hackerchamp can now beat any of them because he _felt required_ to ran simulacrons on each of them in a span of _fifteen years_ actually speaks on their reputation and not his. This Tim doesn`t feel he measured up to their strenght and skill at all. 

Nothing new. The older alternative Earth #BatmanJason was playing Midnigther on our Jay, without breaking a sweat.

----------


## Aioros22

> Twitter is having a loooot of fun with Jason


An it`s _glorious_ !

The true Outcast.

----------


## Aioros22

Now hey, I would rather Jay in true Outcast fashion not being there at all and arrive later saving the day or something but so do every other fanbase of the kids there. 

And the dog.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Now hey, I would rather Jay in true Outcast fashion not being there at all and arrive later saving the day or something but so do every other fanbase of the kids there. 
> 
> And the dog.


Nah, the farthest Jason is from the Batfamily these days, the better.

----------


## G-Potion

> Twitter is having a loooot of fun with Jason.


Haaa so people _do_ notice. Keep it up Jason. The more the fam mistreats you the more fandom loves you.  :Cool:

----------


## TheCape

> Haaa so people do notice. Keep it up Jason. The more the fam mistreats you the more fandom loves you.


Jason is the only Robin that managed to keep some dignity after he fails  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Man, all that talk about #33 I missed the coolest bit!


This would have been a good issue if there were no dialogs.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is the only Robin that managed to keep some dignity after he fails


Well, you know this man. He falls with style.  :Cool: 

[img]https://images.************/cover/i/001/701/437/tumblr_inline_mrmdymoBUD1qz4rgp-7565.jpg[/img]

[img]https://images.************/cover/i/002/171/720/bamboozled-2431.jpg[/img]

----------


## Fergus

> Nah, the farthest Jason is from the Batfamily these days, the better.


Even that wouldn't work because some writer will pull him back in like was done here

----------


## magpieM

> Nah, the farthest Jason is from the Batfamily these days, the better.


It's a little difficult for me to image Jason dressing formally in Bruce/Selina's wedding, which is very possible to be a public event in front of Gotham social celebrities and journalists.

----------


## Aahz

> It's a little difficult for me to image Jason dressing formally in Bruce/Selina's wedding, which is very possible to be a public event in front of Gotham social celebrities and journalists.


They writers seem anyway to ignore that Jason is legally dead and a wanted criminal.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They writers seem anyway to ignore that Jason is legally dead and a wanted criminal.


Not that anyone actually knows who the Red Hood is but Jason can actually rock formal wear when the situation calls for it.




>

----------


## Aioros22

> They writers seem anyway to ignore that Jason is legally dead and a wanted criminal.


Depending whether the marriage is private or not, it`s not like Jason can`t pass out as a "friend" of the family. There`s no reason for anyone to particularly ask his I.D. 

Except maybe Vicky Vale because she`s obessesed like that but Jason would just bullshit her with his charm and no sense.

----------


## EMarie

> They writers seem anyway to ignore that Jason is legally dead and a wanted criminal.


I saw this discussed elsewhere and apparently Lobdell had Jason say he was buried in secret at the start of the Artemis arc. If so he's not legally dead anymore. No idea how that works with the second part.

As for the suit thing, Jason has wore suits plenty of times so it shouldn't be a problem.

----------


## magpieM

Of course he can perfectly handle the suit thing. (He's hot in suits and we've seen that many times. Thanks Dark for the pages). It's just rare to see him, among all other Batfam members, dressing formally in a (semi)public occasion, which is also a historical moment in Bat history. It never happened before so I have no idea how he would be portrayed. I know he definitely _can_ dress & behave properly throughout the event. But I'm both curious and concerned because we know who's gonna write the story.

----------


## EMarie

True. The best I can hope for is for tie ins dealing with individual characters in their own titles while the main story has them in the background.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not that anyone actually knows who the Red Hood is but Jason can actually rock formal wear when the situation calls for it.


He does look really good in these pages.

----------


## G-Potion

> I saw this discussed elsewhere and apparently Lobdell had Jason say he was buried in secret at the start of the Artemis arc. If so he's not legally dead anymore. No idea how that works with the second part.
> 
> As for the suit thing, Jason has wore suits plenty of times so it shouldn't be a problem.


Yeah I wonder if that means Jason can walk around as one of Bruce's adopted sons.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah I wonder if that means Jason can walk around as one of Bruce's adopted sons.


It may have been a mistake but theres also the fact that the childhood friend Gabby recognized him and wasn't like 'HOLY HELL I heard you were dead!'

I wonder if Lobdell is implying that the information of Jasons death wasnt made public in this verse, so a simple, 'he's just off backpacking and traveling the world' or whatever, excuse was given by Bruce to fend off the media and explain Jasons absence.

----------


## kiwiliko

Dexter's helmet design gaining some good traction with cosplay now.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dexter's helmet design gaining some good traction with cosplay now.


One of the few helmets I've seen that looks so slick and has a good size as well. The cosplay looks like a mix of Soy helmet with Injustice armor. XD

----------


## G-Potion

Haha more of this meme. It really is getting around.

https://twitter.com/kieh_m

----------


## EMarie

> It may have been a mistake but theres also the fact that the childhood friend Gabby recognized him and wasn't like 'HOLY HELL I heard you were dead!'
> 
> I wonder if Lobdell is implying that the information of Jasons death wasnt made public in this verse, so a simple, 'he's just off backpacking and traveling the world' or whatever, excuse was given by Bruce to fend off the media and explain Jasons absence.


I'm not sure why Lobdell would make that mistake though. I think it was the first time anyone outside crimefighters and some villains knew who he was without the helmet on.

Here's the direct quote: "More like "Qurac--where I was murdered by the Joker." But there were no headlines. No evening newscasts. Just me in a pine box. Buried in secret."

I also came across the wall of clippings and photos the mystery guy has. It looks like a newspaper clipping of Jason with a bag over his shoulder. Probably an article about the prodigal son returning? If Jason's death wasn't public knowledge then why did Bruce keep it a secret? Was he in denial or did he try to bring Jason back like with Damian?

----------


## RedBird

> I'm not sure why Lobdell would make that mistake though. I think it was the first time anyone outside crimefighters and some villains knew who he was without the helmet on.
> 
> Here's the direct quote: "More like "Qurac--where I was murdered by the Joker." But there were no headlines. No evening newscasts. Just me in a pine box. Buried in secret."
> 
> I also came across the wall of clippings and photos the mystery guy has. It looks like a newspaper clipping of Jason with a bag over his shoulder. Probably an article about the prodigal son returning? If Jason's death wasn't public knowledge then why did Bruce keep it a secret? Was he in denial or did he try to bring Jason back like with Damian?


My guess would be denial. Even in the original story Bruce was in denial about even Jasons existence after DITF, this was back before killing off Bruces Robins became a trend of course. Jasons death was meaningful, Bruce lost his son, it was the second time in Bruces life where he lost his family, and he (feels that he) failed yet again. Considering Jason has only now begun reintegrating back into the family on a more open level, I'm doubtful his existence as an adult has been made public, otherwise he is doing a piss poor job at keeping his identity a secret now that he doesn't bother with wearing a second mask under his mask. The guy is was too willing to just remove his helmet willy nilly :P Its hard to tell with Soys work sometimes, but I think that clipping of Jason was meant to be a shot of him in school during his teens.

----------


## Aahz

> Here's the direct quote: "More like "Qurac--where I was murdered by the Joker." But there were no headlines. No evening newscasts. Just me in a pine box. Buried in secret."


I would still lik if they would clarify his status a little better, hand handle it more consistently. 
At the moment I don't really have the impression that Jason doing a good Job in keeping his identity secret and pretending to be a super villain. And hrdly anyone seems surprised about the fact that he is still alive.

----------


## G-Potion

> My guess would be denial. Even in the original story Bruce was in denial about even Jasons existence after DITF, this was back before killing off Bruces Robins became a trend of course. Jasons death was meaningful, Bruce lost his son, it was the second time in Bruces life where he lost his family, and he (feels that he) failed yet again. Considering Jason has only now begun reintegrating back into the family on a more open level, I'm doubtful his existence as an adult has been made public, otherwise he is doing a piss poor job at keeping his identity a secret now that he doesn't bother with wearing a second mask under his mask. The guy is was too willing to just remove his helmet willy nilly :P Its hard to tell with Soys work sometimes, but I think that clipping of Jason was meant to be a shot of him in school during his teens.


I kinda wish he was still legally dead. That makes doing away with the domino mask and breaking his helmet as often as he can easier to explain as no one would think twice about him looking like a Jason Todd. And it also plays more into his no-life-outside-of-work tendency. I was trying to find the page where Bruce broke down crying in an interview about Jason's death. Would be awesome if it stayed canon.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

Too awesome to not share again. 

http://crimsonhorror.tumblr.com/

----------


## Rise

I really hope that Jason is still legally dead and Bruce didn't hide the knowledge because it's only going to complicate things unnecessarily and makes Bruce look really bad.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah it lacks the sense of finality, which it should at the time of his death because let be real, his was on of the most important and impactful deaths in comics, without a proper public acknowledgment. I want it to affect not just Batman, but also Bruce Wayne in the eyes of the people as well.

----------


## Rise

> For some of you who have concerns. I can't wait to see what he means by this.


To be fair, we have seen more of Jason's soft side in the last few months than we did in his entire career as Red Hood so I'm not surprised that some fans thinks that he has been too soft in Rebirth. 

Jason has always been a kind man and caring towards people he loves, but he doesn't always show it which what makes the moments when he does really precious and great so I hope Lobdell doesn't over do it with his soft side (I especially disliked how Lobdell had Jason act towards Dick in the annual and I hope we never see a repeat of that).

In terms of skills, I definitely think Jason has been really lacking compared how he was in New 52. We didn't see much of impressive feats from him since Rebirth started and he has become more dependent on guns than he was ever before despite the fact that he doesn't kill anymore. I hope Lobdell fix that in the upcoming issues

----------


## RedBird

Wait, there is this page from RHATO v1. #8 where Tim refers to Jason as legally dead, even implying that death has cut Jasons ties to Bruce Wayne by technicality.

----------


## G-Potion

> To be fair, we have seen more of Jason's soft side in the last few months than we did in his entire career as Red Hood so I'm not surprised that some fans thinks that he has been too soft in Rebirth. 
> 
> Jason has always been a kind man and caring towards people he loves, but he doesn't always show it which what makes the moments when he does really precious and great so I hope Lobdell doesn't over do it with his soft side (I especially disliked how Lobdell had Jason act towards Dick in the annual and I hope we never see a repeat of that).
> 
> In terms of skills, I definitely think Jason has been really lacking compared how he was in New 52. We didn't see much of impressive feats from him since Rebirth started and he has become more dependent on guns than he was ever before despite the fact that he doesn't kill anymore. I hope Lobdell fix that in the upcoming issues


I agree that he is soft, but I think it's not out of sudden but through the extensive development throughout the three series. He is definitely not weak though.

He hasn't had impressive feats so far in Rebirth due to the sheer nature of his opponents, but for the ones that he can realistically deal with like Back Mask and the Tec' team, he has been doing fine in both mental and physical aspects. I also like how he uses Artemis's sword to ricochet the bullets in the Annual. That said, I do wish to see more of his other skills like knife play and poison and I did comment to Soy as such. Further than that, I'd want him to be more active when it comes to making plans to sabotage the other rogues, and what he did with Penguin is a step in the right direction. He is a _villain_ so to speak, isn't scheming part of his day job?

----------


## G-Potion

> Wait, there is this page from RHATO v1. #8 where Tim refers to Jason as legally dead, even implying that death has cut Jasons ties to Bruce Wayne by technicality.


Yeah that's why I'm scratching my head here about the change in Rebirth. If it's deliberate, why?

----------


## Aioros22

> To be fair, we have seen more of Jason's soft side in the last few months than we did in his entire career as Red Hood so I'm not surprised that some fans thinks that he has been too soft in Rebirth. 
> 
> Jason has always been a kind man and caring towards people he loves, but he doesn't always show it which what makes the moments when he does really precious and great so I hope Lobdell doesn't over do it with his soft side (I especially disliked how Lobdell had Jason act towards Dick in the annual and I hope we never see a repeat of that).
> 
> In terms of skills, I definitely think Jason has been really lacking compared how he was in New 52. We didn't see much of impressive feats from him since Rebirth started and he has become more dependent on guns than he was ever before despite the fact that he doesn't kill anymore. I hope Lobdell fix that in the upcoming issues


I dunno. He`s taken down Batman, Artemis and just recently made Azrael, Batwoman and Clay look innefective. According to BatTim he also fought and survived a battle against 100 mystical assassins on his own.  

The issue isn`t feats, it`s him showing more range of abilities considerng the pedigree of training he`s got under his own wings.

----------


## Aioros22

He may have been considered legally dead in Pre Flashpoint and New52 but as far as Rebirth it seems it was all kept under wraps by Bruce. Even if it isn`t, Jason, together with Bruce and Dick is the most adept at creating identities and is second to none in bullshitting the priving eye. 

Which I don`t think is an issue with the wedding because it`s not Bruce Wayne marrying Selina Kyle, a known criminal record. It`s Batman marrying Catwoman.

----------


## Aahz

> He hasn't had impressive feats so far in Rebirth due to the sheer nature of his opponents, but for the ones that he can realistically deal with like Back Mask and the Tec' team, he has been doing fine in both mental and physical aspects. I also like how he uses Artemis's sword to ricochet the bullets in the Annual. That said, I do wish to see more of his other skills like knife play and poison and I did comment to Soy as such. Further than that, I'd want him to be active rather than reactive when it comes to making plans to sabotage the other rogues, and what he did with Penguin is a step in the right direction. He is a _villain_ so to speak, isn't scheming part of his day job?


KGBeast is a Batman villain, he is not completely out of the range of what Jason should be able to take down imo.

----------


## G-Potion

> KGBeast is a Batman villain, he is not completely out of the range of what Jason should be able to take down imo.


Maybe. But didn't he say he was equipped with weapons capable of taking down super beings or something?

----------


## Aahz

> I dunno. He`s taken down Batman, Artemis and just recently made Azrael, Batwoman and Clay look innefective. According to BatTim he also fought and survived a battle against 100 mystical assassins on his own.  
> 
> The issue isn`t feats, it`s him showing more range of abilities considerng the pedigree of training he`s got under his own wings.


The Batman thing would have been more impressive without the costume taser. And against TEC he also didn't really took any of them down.

My but biggest issue here mostly a lack of really awesome looking fight scenes. I mean when was the last time we got something like this?

----------


## Aioros22

KG Beast was taking a few hits from Artemis and Bizarro, his armour was impervious to Jason`s chest blast and even his mask looked fine against bullets (altho that one may have simply been artistic interpretation). 

He was clearly upgraded within the frame of that story.

----------


## G-Potion

> The Batman thing would have been more impressive without the costume taser. And against TEC he also didn't really took any of them down.
> 
> My but biggest issue here mostly a lack of really awesome looking fight scenes. I mean when was the last time we got something like this?



Can't dispute that it's not one of his best showings. Not feats, but actual showings. I think his solo against the Iron Rule comes close, even though he didn't manage to beat them, the showing itself was good.

----------


## Aioros22

> The Batman thing would have been more impressive without the costume taser. And against TEC he also didn't really took any of them down


Don`t know if you noticed but since New52 started Batman has kinda always been shown (flashbacks + Rebirth fight) as going down against Jason. The costume taser is Jason`s tech. Batman uses his. 

He didn`t really took any of them down..you mean out. Both him and Artemis were more than holding their own against the Tec team..pardon _Gotham Knights_ _just_ to get to Bizarro. 




> My but biggest issue here mostly a lack of really awesome looking fight scenes. I mean when was the last time we got something like this?


I think coreography is sort of lacking in modern comics when rendering became more posed. Better coreography makes it more exciting and cooler looking but it doesn`t automatically make a scene a better feat per-se. 

I love both scenes but to me, what he did to Clayface, Kate and Azrael in one single maneuver is a better _feat_ than taking down/killing henchemen. even if he only did it with a chair which is awesome but then again Jason had no intent in killing Kate or the others at any point and they were all using better armour/tech.

----------


## Aahz

> I think coreography is sort of lacking in modern comics when rendering became more posed. Better coreography makes it more exciting and cooler looking but it doesn`t automatically make a scene a better feat per-se.


Other Batfamily members still have good coreographed fights once in a while.





> I love both scenes but to me, what he did to Clayface, Kate and Azrael in one single maneuver is a better _feat_ than taking down/killing henchemen. even if he only did it with a chair which is awesome but then again Jason had no intent in killing Kate or the others at any point and they were all using better armour/tech.


It would despite that nice if Jason would get more take downs.

----------


## Aahz

> KG Beast was taking a few hits from Artemis and Bizarro, his armour was impervious to Jason`s chest blast and even his mask looked fine against bullets (altho that one may have simply been artistic interpretation).


KGBeast is imo not that powerfull he is around the level of Bane.
Jason should probably able to beat him just in Hand to hand combat, but with strategy, weapons and trick it should be possible.
And for Bizzaro he should be no real opponent (I'm still not really sure how powerfull Artemis is).

----------


## Aioros22

> KGBeast is imo not that powerfull he is around the level of Bane.
> Jason should probably able to beat him just in Hand to hand combat, but with strategy, weapons and trick it should be possible.
> And for Bizzaro he should be no real opponent (I'm still not really sure how powerfull Artemis is).


Classically he wasn`t but within the frame of _this_ story he`s clearly upgraded. 

Artemis can be anywhere from Batman to Wonder Woman level. Superman in Trinity compares her with Diana and she`s seen taking hits from her and getting back up.

----------


## Rise

> I agree that he is soft, but I think it's not out of sudden but through the extensive development throughout the three series. He is definitely not weak though.
> 
> He hasn't had impressive feats so far in Rebirth due to the sheer nature of his opponents, but for the ones that he can realistically deal with like Back Mask and the Tec' team, he has been doing fine in both mental and physical aspects. I also like how he uses Artemis's sword to ricochet the bullets in the Annual. That said, I do wish to see more of his other skills like knife play and poison and I did comment to Soy as such. Further than that, I'd want him to be more active when it comes to making plans to sabotage the other rogues, and what he did with Penguin is a step in the right direction. He is a _villain_ so to speak, isn't scheming part of his day job?


Lobdell's characterization of Jason in the first arcs of RHATO rebirth was absolutely great and the result of the extensive development throughout the three series you talking about. Lately, though? There has been a sudden change in his characterization since issue 13 and Jason has been acting youngish, softer and kind of naive in a way. It could be a set up by Lobdell for something especially with Bizarro keeping secrets from him and the letters from his father. I'm willing to wait and see.




> I dunno. He`s taken down Batman, Artemis and just recently made Azrael, Batwoman and Clay look innefective. According to BatTim he also fought and survived a battle against 100 mystical assassins on his own.  
> 
> The issue isn`t feats, *it`s him showing more range of abilities considerng the pedigree of training he`s got under his own wings*.


That what I actually mean. I'm person who doesn't care at all about who is stronger or whatever, but action is big part of superhero comics and Jason used to have more variety in skills back in New 52 which made his fights more fun to read compared to now where Jason is just going pew pew. Lobdell has it in him to writes enjoyable fights, but he has been kind of lazy with Jason's fights in Rebirth.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> My but biggest issue here mostly a lack of really awesome looking fight scenes. I mean when was the last time we got something like this?


RHATO v1 #35



RH/A v1 #9



RHATO v2 #1

----------


## G-Potion

> Lobdell's characterization of Jason in the first arcs of RHATO rebirth was absolutely great and the result of the extensive development throughout the three series you talking about. Lately, though? There has been a sudden change in his characterization since issue 13 and Jason has been acting youngish, softer and kind of naive in a way. It could be a set up by Lobdell for something especially with Bizarro keeping secrets from him and the letters from his father. I'm willing to wait and see.


Yes that does bother me a bit that Jason still hasn't seemed to suspect anything and even the newest solicit doesn't suggest any different. But like you said, I want to wait and see. Want to believe there's a reason behind this.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Yes that does bother me a bit that Jason still hasn't seemed to suspect anything and even the newest solicit doesn't suggest any different. But like you said, I want to wait and see. Want to believe there's a reason behind this.


This time around I think the pacing for RHATO has definitely slowed down and most of the developments are emotional rather than action focused. By the sounds of it Lobdell mentioned he's playing a long run game with Bizarro's new genius so same here, I'd rather wait and see because whatever is currently happening still feels organic. 

This is probably the only downside I can see to having this book be a monthly release, we have these longer breaks in between issues that are trying for long term character developments and sometimes that means the story gets a pause in the middle of any emotional development and feels awkward. I think I'm not as bothered by seeing a softer Jason around Bizarro currently because I usually read through all previous issues as well in one go and it does feel natural for where this arc seems to be going.

That said current quality is awesome, I personally like longer but better issues compared to fast and low quality.

----------


## G-Potion

> This time around I think the pacing for RHATO has definitely slowed down and most of the developments are emotional rather than action focused. By the sounds of it Lobdell mentioned he's playing a long run game with Bizarro's new genius so same here, I'd rather wait and see because whatever is currently happening still feels organic. 
> 
> This is probably the only downside I can see to having this book be a monthly release, we have these longer breaks in between issues that are trying for long term character developments and sometimes that means the story gets a pause in the middle of any emotional development and feels awkward. I think I'm not as bothered by seeing a softer Jason around Bizarro currently because I usually read through all previous issues as well in one go and it does feel natural for where this arc seems to be going.
> 
> That said current quality is awesome, I personally like longer but better issues compared to fast and low quality.


RHATO is still leaps and bounds above the other books in term of emotional developments, that I still wholly believe. And like you said, everything is still happening in an organic way. But for Jason, the natural doubter of the group and has always been more observant than he lets on, to fall behind Artemis in term of seeing something not quite right there, is this Jason deliberately leaving things be for the moment, like he has done with Roy's own issues, or is this Jason being compromised by his happiness that Bizarro is well and good? The longer this stretches out (and it looks to be the case as per the lastest solicit), the more likely he will be in for a world of hurt.

----------


## TheCape

> RHATO is still leaps and bounds above the other books in term of emotional developments, that I still wholly believe. And like you said, everything is still happening in an organic way. But for Jason, the natural doubter of the group and has always been more observant than he lets on, to fall behind Artemis in term of seeing something not quite right there, is this Jason deliberately leaving things be for the moment, like he has done with Roy's own issues, or is this Jason being compromised by his happiness that Bizarro is well and good? The longer this stretches out, the more likely he will be in for a world of hurt.


Is likely that Jason is being ignorant on purpose because he is too happy with the current situation, hell this team are already a family for him and the fact that all then felt like outsider in their own worlds probably has some influence in his decision, no matter how many clues he see, there is a part of him that just doesn't want to believe it. 

Is just theory and i would actually want to know what other fans of Todd think of it, but do you think that what i mentioned would be in characther for him, considering everything that has happened to him, up to this point, would be in characther for him to act this way, Jason is the Robin that i have the most hard time understanding as a characther and pretty easy to fall in some fanon cliche that doesn't do him justice.

----------


## Rise

> RHATO is still leaps and bounds above the other books in term of emotional developments


I second this big time. I have read a lot of rebirth books, but RHATO is still the only rebirth book I'm still enjoying and looking forward to every month. 




> I think I'm not as bothered by seeing a softer Jason around Bizarro currently


I wouldn't have much of problem with Jason letting his guard down if it was only with Bizarro, but doing that with Dick too of all people felt a bit too much and too sudden (also, makes absolutely no sense).

----------


## G-Potion

> Is likely that Jason is being ignorant on purpose because he is too happy with the current situation, hell this team are already a family for him and the fact that all then felt like outsider in their own worlds probably has some influence in his decision, no matter how many clues he see, there is a part of him that just doesn't want to believe it. 
> 
> Is just theory and i would actually want to know what other fans of Todd think of it, but do you think that what i mentioned would be in characther for him, considering everything that has happened to him, up to this point, would be in characther for him to act this way, Jason is the Robin that i have the most hard time understanding as a characther and pretty easy to fall in some fanon cliche that doesn't do him justice.


Oh man that is a hard question. If he does it on purpose, and that's what I want to believe... I would like it if they show us both sides, one where Jason plays ignorant in front of Artemis and Bizarro, and the other where it shows Jason knows something's up just by the way he looks at Bizarro without the other knowing.

In the previous series, especially RH/A, the whole thing is a big play of ignorance on Jason's part, letting Roy think Jason wants the same thing as he does (being a proper hero), but it's just his way knowing and providing what Roy needs. Aside from that, he also pretends to not know about Roy running off to talk to Croc, being a private person himself, he understands Roy's need to have his own secret. The thing with Duela, he plays along until the end, listens to her stories and then just calmly exposes her. Not once has he acted surprised that she lied to them.

So yeah, base on that, I'd believe that Jason should know more than he lets on. But his thing with Bizarro is a lot more intimate compared to Roy, and for this I would think he should be more open about his doubts, especially if it concerns Bizarro's well-being.

----------


## G-Potion

Jay and Ace by http://felidaefatigue.tumblr.com

----------


## Aahz

> RHATO v1 #35
> 
> RH/A v1 #9
> 
> RHATO v2 #1


RHATO v2 #1 was imo not really a fight scene, and RH/A v1 #9 he didn't win and thats also rougly 1 and half year old. 

And in RHATO v1 #35 most of the fight also happened of panel.

You could also mention the final issue of RH/A v1 but that fight was just not dranw in a way that made it look cool imo.


I would just like to see stuff like that in a higher frequency, and I actually want see Jason taking his oponent(s) down in the end.

----------


## kiwiliko

Soo if anyone caught the spoilers for DC House of Horror

*spoilers:*
Once again Jason dies and wow what a surprising and original twist ending Bruce was secretly also Joker and killed him.
I'm actually curious if DC ever plans to realize the more showings we have of Bruce treating his robins like trash, the more justified Jason's initial anger with Bruce becomes. Redoing the whole "it's his own fault he died" just isn't going to work the longer stories like this are told. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## AJpyro

> Soo if anyone caught the spoilers for DC House of Horror
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Once again Jason dies and wow what a surprising and original twist ending Bruce was secretly also Joker and killed him.
> I'm actually curious if DC ever plans to realize the more showings we have of Bruce treating his robins like trash, the more justified Jason's initial anger with Bruce becomes. Redoing the whole "it's his own fault he died" just isn't going to work the longer stories like this are told. 
> *end of spoilers*


I'm just gonna go and ignore this.

----------


## magpieM

I really enjoy reading the discussions that you guys talk about more variety of his ability should be shown more in future issues. And as some of you pointed out, Jason's 'blind trust' on Bizarro in recent issues also looks a little bit odd to me. 

Based on UTRH/UTH, Jason was capable of becoming a crime lord in an irredeemable, sin city like Gotham in a short period of time when he was ~ or < 20 years old (what a young demon). His hands reached all sources in Gotham underworld. Those facts indicate that he was already a very sophisticated and tough person. He could be extremely ruthless and malicious when he needed to be. Well now I don't think he's willing to pick up his 'old business' again. He'd grown up and matured a lot, especially from his 'dark, dark' feeling towards the Batfam. But his mental capability, instincts and experiences are still supposed to be there. I can feel that in New52 and earlier Rebirth issues. There are walls he built between himself and other people he cares. He thought a lot and was difficult to put down his guard. Now even if he fully trust Bizarro, he should have regularly checked what Bizarro is doing. Not all the details (some of what this genius kryptonian does are surely beyond him, too), but at least the general directions and the nature of what Bizarro is busy with.

If I have to rationalize Jason's blind trust on Bizarro, it's probably because of his recent emotional roller coaster: stucking in the place he died, reuniting with Artemis, losing Bizarro and having him back.  He might need some time to digrest those up and downs.

----------


## Aioros22

> RHATO v2 #1 was imo not really a fight scene, and RH/A v1 #9 he didn't win and thats also rougly 1 and half year old. 
> 
> And in RHATO v1 #35 most of the fight also happened of panel.
> 
> You could also mention the final issue of RH/A v1 but that fight was just not dranw in a way that made it look cool imo.
> 
> 
> I would just like to see stuff like that in a higher frequency, and I actually want see Jason taking his oponent(s) down in the end.


C`mon, you can`t take the pages and claim it doesn`t happen anymore after posting something from Countdown and then claim you just want it happening more often. I would want it to happen all the time he fights but that`s on creative pacing.

----------


## Aioros22

> I really enjoy reading the discussions that you guys talk about more variety of his ability should be shown more in future issues. And as some of you pointed out, Jason's 'blind trust' on Bizarro in recent issues also looks a little bit odd to me. 
> 
> Based on UTRH/UTH, Jason was capable of becoming a crime lord in an irredeemable, sin city like Gotham in a short period of time when he was ~ or < 20 years old (what a young demon). His hands reached all sources in Gotham underworld. Those facts indicate that he was already a very sophisticated and tough person. He could be extremely ruthless and malicious when he needed to be. Well now I don't think he's willing to pick up his 'old business' again. He'd grown up and matured a lot, especially from his 'dark, dark' feeling towards the Batfam. But his mental capability, instincts and experiences are still supposed to be there. I can feel that in New52 and earlier Rebirth issues. There are walls he built between himself and other people he cares. He thought a lot and was difficult to put down his guard. Now even if he fully trust Bizarro, he should have regularly checked what Bizarro is doing. Not all the details (some of what this genius kryptonian does are surely beyond him, too), but at least the general directions and the nature of what Bizarro is busy with.
> 
> If I have to rationalize Jason's blind trust on Bizarro, it's probably because of his recent emotional roller coaster: stucking in the place he died, reuniting with Artemis, losing Bizarro and having him back.  He might need some time to digrest those up and downs.


I think his blind trust has been laid out pretty clear. He what he feels Bizarro is for him is something he never had before. A younger brother/son figure without any former baggage.

----------


## Aioros22

> Soo if anyone caught the spoilers for DC House of Horror
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Once again Jason dies and wow what a surprising and original twist ending Bruce was secretly also Joker and killed him.
> I'm actually curious if DC ever plans to realize the more showings we have of Bruce treating his robins like trash, the more justified Jason's initial anger with Bruce becomes. Redoing the whole "it's his own fault he died" just isn't going to work the longer stories like this are told. 
> *end of spoilers*


It`s actually a nicely laid story in the veins of the chaos theory of Sherlock Holmes being Moriarty. Some of the best arc of the book too. 

But yeah, if it`s a Joker/Bruce/Death theme story, you know who is getting the crowbar. Or at least you assume, because no name is given.

----------


## magpieM

> I think his blind trust has been laid out pretty clear. He what he feels Bizarro is for him is something he never had before. A younger brother/son figure without any former baggage.


Yeah he followed his instinct to fully embrace this new family. But his hard childhood and dark past also merged into his instinct, too. He should be able to smell the potential dangerous and unsettling traces around him. On the other hand, this family is also a team working together. Teammates are responsible to share key information with each other. If one member is dealing with tons of information on his own (and possibly hides something), while the team leader doesn't want to question anything about it because that guy is a kind of brother/son to him, then it's not a very healthy team relationship.

Anyway Bizarro has become Jason's emotional anchor now. Last time it was his mentor/father Bruce.

----------


## G-Potion

> Soo if anyone caught the spoilers for DC House of Horror
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Once again Jason dies and wow what a surprising and original twist ending Bruce was secretly also Joker and killed him.
> I'm actually curious if DC ever plans to realize the more showings we have of Bruce treating his robins like trash, the more justified Jason's initial anger with Bruce becomes. Redoing the whole "it's his own fault he died" just isn't going to work the longer stories like this are told. 
> *end of spoilers*


... Goddamnit. Horror not withstanding, if Jason were seen as Bruce's son and not just a robin, I guess it would have been more likely to not be written.

----------


## G-Potion

This guy is _good_. https://twitter.com/Bosslogic
And gets an article for it too.
Fan Artist Imagines What A Deathstroke Vs. Red Hood Movie Could Look Like

----------


## RedBird

> Soo if anyone caught the spoilers for DC House of Horror
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Once again Jason dies and wow what a surprising and original twist ending Bruce was secretly also Joker and killed him.
> I'm actually curious if DC ever plans to realize the more showings we have of Bruce treating his robins like trash, the more justified Jason's initial anger with Bruce becomes. Redoing the whole "it's his own fault he died" just isn't going to work the longer stories like this are told. 
> *end of spoilers*


The reviews are out for this and it aint pretty either, (pretty mixed) which I guess is a plus. (I give a moment of silence for my friends who paid up for this trash)

Seriously though, for anyone who hasn't read it its a REALLY REALLY uninspired bore. Just morbid for the sake of being morbid. And funny enough the stories feel so incredibly TONE DEAF when it comes to the characters, the most being Bruces which *spoilers:*
doubles down on (what I can only assume as being) Schizophrenia. Like wow, nice, more use of mental illness for the sake of horror shock value. -_-

The book basically is Bruce recounting his time as Batman and speaking to the joker (who is in his mind as a voice) about it. He says one thing the joker says another. He claims his parents were killed and he helped Gotham. The Joker tells him no, that he actually killed his parents who had been abusive to him. Theres just a bunch of images contrasting what he thinks happened, eg: him saving people vs the reality of him killing people. And then of course Joker killing Jason vs Him killing Jason. So he realises he is disillusioned, that he has (i guess) split personality with Bruce and Joker, and after that revelation he puts a gun to his mouth and kills himself. Ha, one of the few times Bruce actually kills 'the Joker' for Jason, go figure. 
*end of spoilers*

Ooh apologies, I said therapist before, (I thought he was recollecting a 'session') but the dialogue is kinda disjointed its just 'the Joker' the whole time. I guess assuming Bruce would ever get a therapist is poor judgement on my part. :P

----------


## G-Potion

It's amazing how writers keep resorting to the shock value storytelling when there's a mine out there for genuine, emotional stories between Bruce and his family.

----------


## RedBird

> It's amazing how writers keep resorting to the shock value storytelling when there's a mine out there for genuine, emotional stories between Bruce and his family.


Right? Theres a goldmine of relationships and history to dig into, but Bruces means of coping with his trauma is only ever used for cheap shock value. I guess we aught to see it coming in a book like this where its literally just b-grade horror stories, but it just feels like a waste of production/writing and art all the same.

----------


## G-Potion

He has the biggest family in DC universe and lately, all I've seen is either Bruce's grief turns him into something else or he himself again hides some terrible secrets from the family. Like, dude, do you want emotional support or not?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> This guy is _good_. https://twitter.com/Bosslogic
> And gets an article for it too.
> Fan Artist Imagines What A Deathstroke Vs. Red Hood Movie Could Look Like


No. NO! NOOOO!

Ackles is not a good portrayal of Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No. NO! NOOOO!
> 
> Ackles is not a good portrayal of Jason.


Ackles killed it on the animated film and is by far the best voice actor to portray Jason so far. Unfortunately, he's too old to portray him in live-action unless they also go DKR and use a significantly older Jason.




> If I have to rationalize Jason's blind trust on Bizarro, it's probably because of his recent emotional roller coaster: stucking in the place he died, reuniting with Artemis, losing Bizarro and having him back.  He might need some time to digrest those up and downs.


If you're rationalizing Jason's trust on Bizarro like that, then you missed a lot of the development Jason went through during the first Volume of RHATO and RHA. Jason was distrustful back then but that wasn't really by choice but because he felt he didn't deserve nor he waited anything from life. Through all the adventures and time he spent together with Roy and Kori, Jason matured into someone that came to appreciate friendship. This also made him eager to offer his trust to anyone who needed regardless if was wise or not since he knows first hand what is being isolated. There's also the fact that Jason has always had a blind spot for those he cares about.


Anyways, it makes me happy that both Soy and Gandini enjoy my reviews of RHATO

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/923708862053548033

https://twitter.com/VeronicaGandini/...82222045061120

----------


## G-Potion

> No. NO! NOOOO!
> 
> Ackles is not a good portrayal of Jason.


Dude he killed it on the aninated film. But I was talking about how good the artist is though, not about who can play the role.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyways, it makes me happy that both Soy and Gandini enjoy my reviews of RHATO
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/923708862053548033
> 
> https://twitter.com/VeronicaGandini/...82222045061120


Hey I didnt get to read your recent reviews yet but I admire that you have been at it since the start and still going. You deserve the recognition from the team!

----------


## RedBird

Kudos to 'Emily' for this request from Soy [X]



Love seeing UTRH Jason in Soys style. He even makes the split bangs look cool.

----------


## G-Potion

> Kudos to 'Emily' for this request from Soy [X]
> 
> Love seeing UTRH Jason in Soys style. He even makes the split bangs look cool.


Not bad, not bad. Though now that I've seen both, I can definitely see why he goes with the current look for Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

If Jensen was a decade younger he would be a go but he can certainly still play an older Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

Any of you watching Eleague in a few hours?

----------


## G-Potion

More from Bosslogic

----------


## Aioros22

I think the sock likes under the eyes should be darker but that is one cool image. Loving that vest.

----------


## RedBird

> For those curious about Sandoval, you can check his work here
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/sergio.sand...=pb_friends_tl


I wish I knew the process by which artists are brought on board. Sandovals work is beautiful but it seems he has only been doing Arrow comics for a couple of years (the last ones being in 2013-2014 I think). And in terms of dc comics, I tried looking up his stuff and could only find like some 'legends of the dark knight' comics he did, with the last one being nearly a decade ago. With such little work on actual dc comic characters and titles, how did he get roped into rhato of all things? Is Lobdell just fortunate or is Sandovals work under appreciated at DC?

----------


## RedBird

> More from Bosslogic


Shape and design feels somewhat 'early RH Arkham Knighty', Its pretty nice. I agree with Aioros22 on the eyes sockets but I also gotta say despite how cool it looks, those eye slit look WAY too thin for anyone to see out of properly, I dont think he can see without having to tilt his head at weird angles XD.

----------


## G-Potion

This cosplay.....!!  https://twitter.com/DKirtzic

----------


## G-Potion

> Shape and design feels somewhat 'early RH Arkham Knighty', Its pretty nice. I agree with Aioros22 on the eyes sockets but I also gotta say despite how cool it looks, those eye slit look WAY too thin for anyone to see out of properly, I dont think he can see without having to tilt his head at weird angles XD.


Or he's like who needs eyes I'm totally seeing this through a live video recording from my cool helmet. You know he can be extra like that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> I wish I knew the process by which artists are brought on board. Sandovals work is beautiful but it seems he has only been doing Arrow comics for a couple of years (the last ones being in 2013-2014 I think). And in terms of dc comics, I tried looking up his stuff and could only find like some 'legends of the dark knight' comics he did, with the last one being nearly a decade ago. With such little work on actual dc comic characters and titles, how did he get roped into rhato of all things? Is Lobdell just fortunate or is Sandovals work under appreciated at DC?


I remember reading somewhere that it's also the editor's job to find and get a suitable artist for their books.

----------


## G-Potion

In other news. I finally went to see Happy Death Day. Great work, has a lot of heart.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, haven`t yet. My budget last week went to Blade Runner 2049 which is totally movie of the year for me  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh, haven`t yet. My budget last week went to Blade Runner 2049 which is totally movie of the year for me


That's what I'm gonna watch next then.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

DexterSoy aaaa

----------


## Aioros22

Hope you enjoy it. It`s a long movie but throughly rewarding. 

Soy is a giftsend. I don`t think there`s been a creativ ewho hasn`t grown up with the character that end up being such a fan and entusiast. They should let him redesigning the helmet in a future plot hook but i`d be afraid of other artists suddently starting drawing mouths. 

And I_ know_ I`m not being fair to the majority but there`s always one or two who ruin the party.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hope you enjoy it. It`s a long movie but throughly rewarding. 
> 
> Soy is a giftsend. I don`t think there`s been a creativ ewho hasn`t grown up with the character that end up being such a fan and entusiast. They should let him redesigning the helmet in a future plot hook but i`d be afraid of other artists suddently starting drawing mouths. 
> 
> And I_ know_ I`m not being fair to the majority but there`s always one or two who ruin the party.


Really hope someone would do a new intereview with Soy. Want to hear his story of how the character grows on him.

----------


## Alycat

> That's what I'm gonna watch next then.


I'm trying to shove everybody I see to go see Blade Runner. Its a shame how poorly such a good movie is doing.

----------


## Aioros22

Just like the first one. 

Its legacy is secure  :Cool: 

There`s some factors but clearly the lenght and the baggage of world building (three different final cuts from the original and the small movies that were released prior to 2049 to bridge the timeline between the two offerings - one of them a kickass anime release by Cowboy Bebop`s creator!) likely had a hand in scaring some of the audience. 

...that likely prefer crap like Fast and Furious 8 - this time is for real, dawg!

----------


## SpentShrimp

Ackles was okay. His voice acting isn't the greatest. I prefer the Injustice 2 voice actor.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Dude he killed it on the aninated film. But I was talking about how good the artist is though, not about who can play the role.


I was just really triggered by seeing Ackles in a live action picture. Not good casting if it did happen.

----------


## G-Potion

Got a good laugh from http://textsfromsuperheroes.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm trying to shove everybody I see to go see Blade Runner. Its a shame how poorly such a good movie is doing.


Good reviews and words of mouth might give it some legs hopefully.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Good reviews and words of mouth might give it some legs hopefully.


Amazing movie. I just don't think the general audience has the attention span for it sometimes.

----------


## Aioros22

It will probably make the revenue back overseas who are more used to longer movies.

----------


## Aahz

> It will probably make the revenue back overseas who are more used to longer movies.


I kind of doubt this, Blade Runner is just not such a big IP.

----------


## G-Potion

Is it necessary to watch the first Blade Runner before jumping in?

----------


## Aioros22

You`ll get the general backstory where some characters are concerned but it helps since the main plot revolves around the two mains of the first movie. 

I think the sequel is well made in the sense that you don`t feel totally lost since it succeeds in being a self contained story (which it is) but _directly_ ties to events outside of it so you`ll feel you have to, to complete some puzzles..or ask more questions  :Wink: 

Ideally, see the original Blade before. If not, see it afterwards so you can Deja Vu. And while you`re at it, see the short movies they released a little before 2049 as well. You can find them all in YoutTube.

----------


## Aioros22

Here`s a Youtube video containing all three shorts (of events placing between the two movies) in their proper order of timeline. 

Enjoy  :Cool:

----------


## Assam

Suddenly feeling a strong urge to re-read RobinJay stories. Gonna have to dig through the longboxes next time I head home.  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Feel free to tell us which ones you have or enjoy re-reading the most, Assam! I always treasure the Barr/Davis and Newton runs myself.

----------


## Aioros22

> I kind of doubt this, Blade Runner is just not such a big IP.


Depends. Last revenue I`m aware of in total was around 220 million and it`s a R rated movie.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine



----------


## G-Potion

> Here`s a Youtube video containing all three shorts (of events placing between the two movies) in their proper order of timeline. 
> 
> Enjoy


Aaah cheers! I'll be more equipped by then. Have to watch before Friday or no more chance.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Neat! Prefer the earlier sketches tbh. I wonder if the domino mask will be there alongside the helmet.

----------


## G-Potion

Second episode of the fan series Red Hood: Retcon is finally here:

----------


## G-Potion

First episode:

----------


## G-Potion

It's amazing just two episodes and they've packed so many aspects of Jason's character in it.

----------


## RedBird

> It's amazing just two episodes and they've packed so many aspects of Jason's character in it.


Watched em yesterday, rewatching again. I actually enjoyed the married couple vibe that they gave between Roy and Jason. XD


I think episode 1 got a bad rap for being too 'deadpooly' but I gotta disagree. Deadpools humour is absurd and random, where as this was more light hearted in a dangerous situation, or even rather mocking and condescending. Its meant to be their interpretation of an older Jason and I do think its not a bad way of making the character feel like he could last so many years dealing with the kind of horrible things he must see on a regular basis, _without_ becoming a jaded monster.
Also is it just me or does this Red Hood sound like Matthew Mcconaughey? The accent is tripping me up  :Big Grin: 


Regarding the darker nature of episode 2 however, it honestly gave me such great emotional flashbacks to Lost Days, I love when the part of Jasons career as Red Hood hinging on protecting kids from the horribleness of the world is acknowledged. It was a strong enough point to mention and be clear about the consequences for even when he was a freaking drug lord. The children being used in human trafficking was the catalyst point in Lost Days that snapped him out of focusing on only his own pain. It was the one aspect of Batman Eternal that I loved, when Batgirl Red Hood and Batwoman are all working together to free a child labour factory but Jason is the only one to have such a strong emotion and revile to the whole ordeal. When he nearly kills (I think) Jason Bard was it? By dropping him, he likens the guys actions to that of an abusive parent and claims he should be punished so. Hell even in Injustice 2 its part of his dialogue to protect 'women and children' or spesifically keep them out of this danger, and in his ladder ending to 'fight for those who cannot fight for themselves' (Im paraphrasing but you get my point). Ooh, and also in Greg Paks Superman and batkids crossover, Superman/Batman also featured Jason willing to sacrifice the whole mission if it meant the children in the scenario had a better chance to survive.

I know ALL the bats want to protect children (just look at the head honcho), they are heroes after all, but the fact that they make the point so strong within Jason and always give him the strongest and most passionate reaction against child abuse makes me really happy to see. Ditto with this short film as well. Seeing that ending made me wish for a John Wickesque Red Hood film.


(Also that bonus last scene with Roy had me rolling. XD Dat Ghost reference)

----------


## Aahz

> Depends. Last revenue I`m aware of in total was around 220 million and it`s a R rated movie.


But with a budget of 150 million (without marketing), that's not great. If they are lucky they will probably make at best a little bit more than what the movie costed (a the absolute profit will very likely be smaller than what Happy Death Day made).

----------


## adrikito

> First episode:


What is this? But thank you..

----------


## G-Potion

> What is this? But thank you..


It's a fanmade Red Hood movie series, depicting an older, more experienced Jason operating in a setting where Batman is allegedly dead. There are quite a few Red Hood fanfilms out there, some of them being Red Hood: The Fallen and Red Hood: The Series, but this particular one also embraces more aspects of Jason from recent years, from N52 and Arkham Knight.

Also if you haven't heard about it yet, there's also a Nightwing series where Red Hood also guest stars.

----------


## G-Potion

> Watched em yesterday, rewatching again. I actually enjoyed the married couple vibe that they gave between Roy and Jason. XD
> 
> 
> I think episode 1 got a bad rap for being too 'deadpooly' but I gotta disagree. Deadpools humour is absurd and random, where as this was more light hearted in a dangerous situation, or even rather mocking and condescending. Its meant to be their interpretation of an older Jason and I do think its not a bad way of making the character feel like he could last so many years dealing with the kind of horrible things he must see on a regular basis, _without_ becoming a jaded monster.
> Also is it just me or does this Red Hood sound like Matthew Mcconaughey? The accent is tripping me up 
> 
> 
> Regarding the darker nature of episode 2 however, it honestly gave me such great emotional flashbacks to Lost Days, I love when the part of Jasons career as Red Hood hinging on protecting kids from the horribleness of the world is acknowledged. It was a strong enough point to mention and be clear about the consequences for even when he was a freaking drug lord. The children being used in human trafficking was the catalyst point in Lost Days that snapped him out of focusing on only his own pain. It was the one aspect of Batman Eternal that I loved, when Batgirl Red Hood and Batwoman are all working together to free a child labour factory but Jason is the only one to have such a strong emotion and revile to the whole ordeal. When he nearly kills (I think) Jason Bard was it? By dropping him, he likens the guys actions to that of an abusive parent and claims he should be punished so. Hell even in Injustice 2 its part of his dialogue to protect 'women and children' or spesifically keep them out of this danger, and in his ladder ending to 'fight for those who cannot fight for themselves' (Im paraphrasing but you get my point). Ooh, and also in Greg Paks Superman and batkids crossover, Superman/Batman also featured Jason willing to sacrifice the whole mission if it meant the children in the scenario had a better chance to survive.
> 
> ...


With the second episode, this series is starting to become my favorite Red Hood movie. It just feels a lot more nuanced and like you said, Jason's compassion is very well-communicated here, a refreshing take compared to the other movies where Jason is either colder or more vengeful. Roy's look throws me off a bit but his rapport with Jason is just spot on and more than makes up for it.

----------


## kiwiliko

Happy Halloween guys!

For those of you who read fics, here's some nice halloweeny Jason content.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/12567156 (Red Hood age, crossover with Sandman series)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/12564812 (Arkham knight verse, it's that awesome author I keep telling you all about)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/12536748 (Red Hood age, crossover with Metal, dark but I enjoy the theorizing about what exactly motivates the Bat who laughs to keep all those Jasons and robins around.)

----------


## kiwiliko

> With the second episode, this series is starting to become my favorite Red Hood movie. It just feels a lot more nuanced and like you said, Jason's compassion is very well-communicated here, a refreshing take compared to the other movies where Jason is either colder or more vengeful. Roy's look throws me off a bit but his rapport with Jason is just spot on and more than makes up for it.


I've seen episode 1 drifting around youtube a while back but live action fan episodes are notoriously difficult to pull off so I never quite put together the patience to sit down and go through it all. Gotta say though you two make it sound like it's way worth the watch so I'm gonna save these for a nice rainy day in.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Read the first and third so far. The latter is really _something_. Good work all of them though. Haven't read the second one but knowing the author, should be good as always.

----------


## G-Potion

> I've seen episode 1 drifting around youtube a while back but live action fan episodes are notoriously difficult to pull off so I never quite put together the patience to sit down and go through it all. Gotta say though you two make it sound like it's way worth the watch so I'm gonna save these for a nice rainy day in.


Watch it when it's still fresh  :Embarrassment:  What I like about this guy is that he understands and is showing a broader range of Jason's character. His music choice might be your cup of tea, it might be not, but it's certainly not _boring_. I love how he doesn't go for the predictable epic/edgy tunes. And then, the fact that his last filming location was under water due to the flood, he came up with some very interesting editing choice for the second episode. 

In other news, Red Hood: The Series starts filming its next episode this month so hopefully more stuff coming soon.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...im-and-bizarro

----------


## kiwiliko

> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/16...im-and-bizarro


In the absence of pup pup a Jason will do just as well. 
Words cannot express how much I love that his team is much taller than him, built like tanks and yet not just Soy's art but fanart isn't shy at all about showing it off either.

----------


## Rise

For anyone who is interested, we got some explanation about Jason in White Kinght.

SPOILER WARNING:

The joker kidnapped Jason and beat him up in his basement because he was jealous of him. Harely find out and got really angry so she went and told Batman about Jason's whereabouts, but when they arrived Jason was nowhere and the joker refused to talk about what he did to him.

----------


## Aioros22

> But with a budget of 150 million (without marketing), that's not great. If they are lucky they will probably make at best a little bit more than what the movie costed (a the absolute profit will very likely be smaller than what Happy Death Day made).


Doesn`t have to be great to get the revenue back, which they seem to be doing. 

Happy Death Day is a much smaller production with a budget of nearly 5 million. Everything it makes will be Money and it`s Halloween season.

----------


## G-Potion

> For anyone who is interested, we got some explanation about Jason in White Kinght.
> 
> SPOILER WARNING:
> 
> The joker kidnapped Jason and beat him up in his basement because he was jealous of him. Harely find out and got really angry so she went and told Batman about Jason's whereabouts, but when they arrived Jason was nowhere and the joker refused to talk about what he did to him.


Saw some pages on tumblr but was too lazy to read all the text. From what I've seen it wasn't as bad as I feared.

----------


## Aioros22

> For anyone who is interested, we got some explanation about Jason in White Kinght.
> 
> SPOILER WARNING:
> 
> The joker kidnapped Jason and beat him up in his basement because he was jealous of him. Harely find out and got really angry so she went and told Batman about Jason's whereabouts, but when they arrived Jason was nowhere and the joker refused to talk about what he did to him.


Interesting premise so far. 

Murphy was quite virtually meta with the Harley character and Jason`s fate with no resolution means he`s coming back to likely be Napier`s last fight with the Joker side?

----------


## G-Potion

From http://cosmoscowboy.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

Enter Red Hood under Murphy`s pencil is bound to be cool. So far I`m digging his designs for Bane and co.

----------


## G-Potion

Yes. I didn't expect Jason's fate to be unclear. Now let's see if they let the opportunity go waste or not.

----------


## Aioros22

Murphy could have give it certainity and didn`t. I think he`s musing using his own Red Hood even if it`s a cameo between the inevitable Napier/Joker mental struggle. Wasn`t expecting the way he used Harley either, she was the highlight of the issue.

----------


## Aioros22

Carlos D'Anda

----------


## Aioros22

_Master of puns is kicking your theeeeth_


_Hello, irony. It`s Arkham Knight again_

----------


## Aioros22

By the way, about White Knight. Since it`s unclear whether OG Harley left Jason with Joker in the basement when getting Batman`s help (either tied up or emotionally broke after her words) it is still possible Joker in a fit of unrequited love kills Jason and his mental struggle will be revolving around that memory over what happened in that period of time. If they go this road the best use would be of Jason showig up as Red Hood in Napier`s mind looking to kill the Joker and resulting in the inevitable breakdown at the series conclusion.

Hopefully not, just saying.

----------


## G-Potion

Dexter Soy: Gods want you to go to war

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Watched em yesterday, rewatching again. I actually enjoyed the married couple vibe that they gave between Roy and Jason. XD
> 
> 
> I think episode 1 got a bad rap for being too 'deadpooly' but I gotta disagree. Deadpools humour is absurd and random, where as this was more light hearted in a dangerous situation, or even rather mocking and condescending. Its meant to be their interpretation of an older Jason and I do think its not a bad way of making the character feel like he could last so many years dealing with the kind of horrible things he must see on a regular basis, _without_ becoming a jaded monster.
> Also is it just me or does this Red Hood sound like Matthew Mcconaughey? The accent is tripping me up 
> 
> 
> Regarding the darker nature of episode 2 however, it honestly gave me such great emotional flashbacks to Lost Days, I love when the part of Jasons career as Red Hood hinging on protecting kids from the horribleness of the world is acknowledged. It was a strong enough point to mention and be clear about the consequences for even when he was a freaking drug lord. The children being used in human trafficking was the catalyst point in Lost Days that snapped him out of focusing on only his own pain. It was the one aspect of Batman Eternal that I loved, when Batgirl Red Hood and Batwoman are all working together to free a child labour factory but Jason is the only one to have such a strong emotion and revile to the whole ordeal. When he nearly kills (I think) Jason Bard was it? By dropping him, he likens the guys actions to that of an abusive parent and claims he should be punished so. Hell even in Injustice 2 its part of his dialogue to protect 'women and children' or spesifically keep them out of this danger, and in his ladder ending to 'fight for those who cannot fight for themselves' (Im paraphrasing but you get my point). Ooh, and also in Greg Paks Superman and batkids crossover, Superman/Batman also featured Jason willing to sacrifice the whole mission if it meant the children in the scenario had a better chance to survive.
> 
> ...


Married couple? I haven't watched them, but I hope they aren't pushing the bi Jason agenda.

----------


## Assam

> Married couple? I haven't watched them, but I hope they aren't pushing the bi Jason agenda.


Ummmmmmmmmmm...what?  I know you probably didn't mean for that to come off as homophobic (Hopefully), but your wording really makes it come off that way. (From my experience only racists,homophobes and other bigots talk about "pushing agendas" like this in comics.) 

Me personally? I could see Jay as bi. Don't ship him with Roy though, primarily because, in canon, he's never really interacted with anyone actually resembling Roy Harper.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Ummmmmmmmmmm...what?  I know you probably didn't mean for that to come off as homophobic (Hopefully), but your wording really makes it come off that way. (From my experience only racists,homophobes and other bigots talk about "pushing agendas" like this in comics.) 
> 
> Me personally? I could see Jay as bi. Don't ship him with Roy though, primarily because,* in canon, he's never really interacted with anyone actually resembling Roy Harper.*


What are you talking about

----------


## Assam

I'm perfectly aware of Nu52RHatO and Red Hood/Arsenal. I have read several issues of both. I love Roy, he's in my top 5 heroes, and I do think that he could have a really great bond with Jason, not to mention the potential for "Uncle Jason" once Lian comes back...but no one I would ever call Roy Harper can be found in the Nu52. Lobdell's take on the character has as much in common with Roy as Pre-FP Tim Drake has in common with Post-FP Starfire.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm perfectly aware of Nu52RHatO and Red Hood/Arsenal. I have read several issues of both. I love Roy, he's in my top 5 heroes, and I do think that he could have a really great bond with Jason, not to mention the potential for "Uncle Jason" once Lian comes back...but no one I would ever call Roy Harper can be found in the Nu52. Lobdell's take on the character has as much in common with Roy as Pre-FP Tim Drake has in common with Post-FP Starfire.


That is your personal bias, far as DC is concerned that *is* Roy Harper and *canonically*, he was Jason's best friend.

----------


## Assam

> That is your personal bias, far as DC is concerned that *is* Roy Harper and *canonically*, he was Jason's best friend.


We're not talking about what DC sees as canon, we're talking about shipping. It is completely my bias. I do not ship Jay and Roy because I don't see any of Roy in Jason's best friend.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Ummmmmmmmmmm...what?  I know you probably didn't mean for that to come off as homophobic (Hopefully), but your wording really makes it come off that way. (From my experience only racists,homophobes and other bigots talk about "pushing agendas" like this in comics.) 
> 
> Me personally? I could see Jay as bi. Don't ship him with Roy though, primarily because, in *canon*, he's never really interacted with anyone actually resembling Roy Harper.





> We're not talking about what DC sees as *canon*, we're talking about shipping. It is completely my bias. I do not ship Jay and Roy because I don't see any of Roy in Jason's best friend.


Your words. 

You were the one who brought canon into the discussion in the first place.

----------


## Assam

> Your words


I meant that in-canon, I've never seen Jason interact with someone I would call Roy, as opposed to non-canon material, AKA fanfiction, where the two ARE written properly as friends.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Ummmmmmmmmmm...what?  I know you probably didn't mean for that to come off as homophobic (Hopefully), but your wording really makes it come off that way. (From my experience only racists,homophobes and other bigots talk about "pushing agendas" like this in comics.) 
> 
> Me personally? I could see Jay as bi. Don't ship him with Roy though, primarily because, in canon, he's never really interacted with anyone actually resembling Roy Harper.


Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has. 

Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I meant that in-canon, I've never seen Jason interact with someone I would call Roy, as opposed to non-canon material, AKA fanfiction, where the two ARE written properly as friends.


That is your head-canon then. Canon is everything that Editorial considers official part of the character story, and in this case, Jason and Roy were best friends for more than five years.




> Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has. 
> 
> Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.


Not under Lobdell

----------


## G-Potion

> That is your head-canon then. Canon is everything that Editorial considers official part of the character story, and in this case, Jason and Roy were best friends for more than five years.
> 
> 
> 
> Not under Lobdell


Praise to the man. But I would still want Jason to see person not gender. If the relationship is particularly deep, I wouldn't want gender to hinder it from developing into something more.

----------


## Assam

> Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has. 
> 
> Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.


You've got bi and pan mixed up. Bi-sexual means you're attracted to men and women, while pansexual means you don't see gender. 

Also, as far as changes to Jason's background go, the only one I'm really fond of, and even then I go back and forth on whether I'd want it canon, is the fun fan theory/fanfic element that he's actually Shiva's son, making him and Cass half-siblings. 




> But I would still want Jason to see person not gender. If the relationship is particularly deep, I wouldn't want gender to hinder it from developing into something more.


I personally hate when people try to say that changing a characters sexuality is the same thing as changing their race. One is fluid, the other is not. I was not pansexual my entire life. If I was, I'm pretty sure my dad would have kicked me out of the house when I was in middle school. (He wasn't exactly a tolerant man)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You guys realize that is the exact same reasoning that Lobdell is answering there, right?

----------


## kiwiliko

> You guys realize that is the exact same reasoning that Lobdell is answering there, right?


Apologies, bi and pan are ones I tend to have trouble with remembering the definitions for.
I'm actually not familiar with what reference Lobdell's making but I assumed it sounded like he was saying he never wants a bi or latino Jason. Regardless I think I might be seeing pan Jason with the whole person not gender but these are personal impressions, it is interesting to hear some of you guys see the same sort of vibe for Jay too though.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Apologies, bi and pan are ones I tend to have trouble with remembering the definitions for.
> I'm actually not familiar with what reference Lobdell's making but I assumed it sounded like he was saying he never wants a bi or latino Jason. Regardless I think I might be seeing pan Jason with the whole person not gender but these are personal impressions, it is interesting to hear some of you guys see the same sort of vibe for Jay too though.


When rebirth started Lobdell got flooded with tweets of people advocating for a bi and/or Latino Jason based on Lobdell's knack of writing Jason as a smartass and using arguments like the ones you guys are making right now ("Jason shouldn't care for gender if the emotion is real" "Wouldn't be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms?" and so on)The whole thing was blowing out of proportion so Lobdell  made that tweet, basically saying that Jason's preference and race are what it is (ie. Caucasian, straight) and he won't be the guy who would change them.

----------


## G-Potion

> I personally hate when people try to say that changing a characters sexuality is the same thing as changing their race. One is fluid, the other is not. I was not pansexual my entire life. If I was, I'm pretty sure my dad would have kicked me out of the house when I was in middle school. (He wasn't exactly a tolerant man)


I agree. While I'm totally fine with his response to fan demands, because those were seriously out of line, so a little sacarsm as fireback is good. That said, whether he does something or not in his work, I hope its not what he really believes in because like you, I think attraction/orientation is fluid and not comparable to race at all.

----------


## kiwiliko

> When rebirth started Lobdell got flooded with tweets of people advocating for a bi and/or Latino Jason based on Lobdell's knack of writing Jason as a smartass and using arguments like the ones you guys are making right now ("Jason shouldn't care for gender if the emotion is real" "Wouldn't be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms?" and so on)The whole thing was blowing out of proportion so Lobdell  made that tweet, basically saying that Jason's preference and race are what it is (ie. Caucasian, straight) and he won't be the guy who would change them.


Fair enough.
The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"

Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly
 It's a pretty long analysis post for one author on how they personally interpreted his character and granted I have my own agreements/disagreements with it, it does bring up Jason's character in relation to gender that I thought was an interesting read. He does play like an antithesis to the expected masculine badboy role but particularly his sympathy and strong feelings towards female prostitutes aren't seen a lot in how most male characters are written. How his character interacts with gender is kinda off topic from sexuality at his point but it was an interesting read and I'm curious to hear other thoughts on it as well.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I agree. While I'm totally fine with his response to fan demands, because those were seriously out of line, so a little sacarsm as fireback is good. That said, whether he does something or not in his work, I hope its not what he really believes in because like you, I think attraction/orientation is fluid and not comparable to race at all.


^double agreed.
The guy can at least be appreciated for keeping cool and just the right bit of bite back.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Fair enough.
> The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"
> 
> Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
> http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly
>  It's a pretty long analysis post for one author on how they personally interpreted his character and granted I have my own agreements/disagreements with it, it does bring up Jason's character in relation to gender that I thought was an interesting read. He does play like an antithesis to the expected masculine badboy role but particularly his sympathy and strong feelings towards female prostitutes aren't seen a lot in how most male characters are written. How his character interacts with gender is kinda off topic from sexuality at his point but it was an interesting read and I'm curious to hear other thoughts on it as well.


Interesting read but awfully outdated. Current Jason is an entirely different beast from that the author used for their analysis.

----------


## dietrich

Bat self defence

----------


## Assam

Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:

https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928

----------


## RedBird

> Married couple? I haven't watched them, but I hope they aren't pushing the bi Jason agenda.


Uh, not that there would be anything wrong with Jason being Bi, but no. I didnt mean in a romantic sense. I meant it in the genre of buddy cop kinda stuff where the characters are (usually) dudes who are super close, completely understand one another, and underneath all the jokey jabs, nagging and ribbing that they really care about each other.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:
> 
> https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928


Daww how cute

I REALLY REALLY wish the fact that they both enjoyed Shakespeare was brought up. What a great connective point to start some kind of dialogue between them.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:
> 
> https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928


This needs to happen for real.

----------


## RedBird

> Fair enough.
> The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"
> 
> Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
> http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly


OOh I love this analysis, I always reblog it when it comes across my dash.

----------


## Assam

> Daww how cute
> 
> I REALLY REALLY wish the fact that they both enjoyed Shakespeare was brought up. What a great connective point to start some kind of dialogue between them.


Both enjoy Shakespeare, they're the two clearly most protective of children, as we've brought up before they're contrasting ideologies; all the ingredients are there for one of the most enjoyable and interesting relationships in the BatFamily and I hate that only fanfic writers even attempt it. (Mind you there IS some really good fanfiction about the two)

What could be a somber and sweet way to start the relationship would be if after the team loses Basil in some way, Jason, having heard from someone about how she and him practiced Shakespeare together, stepped in to do lines with her to try and cheer her up.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Both enjoy Shakespeare, they're the two clearly most protective of children, as we've brought up before they're contrasting ideologies; all the ingredients are there for one of the most enjoyable and interesting relationships in the BatFamily and I hate that only fanfic writers even attempt it. (Mind you there IS some really good fanfiction about the two)
> 
> What could be a somber and sweet way to start the relationship would be if after the team loses Basil in some way, Jason, having heard from someone about how she and him practiced Shakespeare together, stepped in to do lines with her to try and cheer her up.


To add to that. Both have a flair for theatre as well. What I wouldn't give to see these two finally discuss their hobbies what with Cass and her ballet to Jason "talks to the helmet like hamlet" Todd. 

All these literature refs keep happening in Rhato too I'm actually pumped up to see more of these happen in fanworks after this.

----------


## RedBird

> Both enjoy Shakespeare, they're the two clearly most protective of children, as we've brought up before they're contrasting ideologies; all the ingredients are there for one of the most enjoyable and interesting relationships in the BatFamily and I hate that only fanfic writers even attempt it. (Mind you there IS some really good fanfiction about the two)
> 
> What could be a somber and sweet way to start the relationship would be if after the team loses Basil in some way, Jason, having heard from someone about how she and him practiced Shakespeare together, stepped in to do lines with her to try and cheer her up.


Oh that would be adorable
I think Alfred should join in too, he was the one that started it with Jason. Also it will be a good excuse to have both Jason and Cass at the manor more often.  :Smile: 




> To add to that. Both have a flair for theatre as well. What I wouldn't give to see these two finally discuss their hobbies what with Cass and her ballet to Jason "talks to the helmet like hamlet" Todd.


Yes, that too! The dramatic duo, or the EXTRA duo  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> Bat self defence


Wel thats pretty much the whole rhato rebirth first arc aint it? Black mask being creepy close and Jason being like no thanks :P

----------


## Assam

> Oh that would be adorable
> I think Alfred should join in too, he was the one that started it with Jason. Also it will be a good excuse to have both Jason and Cass at the manor more often.


Correct me if I'm wrong on the Jason end, but I'm fairly certain Alfred is the only character who never stopped caring about these two; just another reason he's the best. 





> Yes, that too! The dramatic duo, or the EXTRA duo


I think that sass appreciation thread from awhile ago serves as nice proof that no one is more extra than these two.

----------


## Rise

> Fair enough.
> The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"
> 
> Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
> http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly
>  It's a pretty long analysis post for one author on how they personally interpreted his character and granted I have my own agreements/disagreements with it, it does bring up Jason's character in relation to gender that I thought was an interesting read. He does play like an antithesis to the expected masculine badboy role but particularly his sympathy and strong feelings towards female prostitutes aren't seen a lot in how most male characters are written. How his character interacts with gender is kinda off topic from sexuality at his point but it was an interesting read and I'm curious to hear other thoughts on it as well.


This author is overthinking and complicated a lot of stuff that were pretty simple (like the hair thing which simple to understand the history behind it).

Jason's sympathy and strong feelings towards females in general (not necessarily just prostitutes) simply come from his mother being more involved in his life and his rough upbringing. He lived in a place where he saw a lot of violence (maybe mostly against women) and him being the one who took care of his mom played role on why he become protective.

And the whole bi thing will never make any sense because he has never in any way seemed interested in guys no matter how hard tumblr try to insert their headcanons nor there is anything "bigot" about him being just straight (interestingly enough, I finally understood why fangirls are obsessed with making every male character into gay or bi after reading interesting analysis by someone).

----------


## TheCape

> Correct me if I'm wrong on the Jason end, but I'm fairly certain Alfred is the only character who never stopped caring about these two; just another reason he's the best.*


Bruce still cared about Jason, but didn't know what to do about him, so he just avoided him. I think that Tim still cared about Cassandra (at leat if we ignored that terrible OYL arc).

----------


## TheCape

> This author is overthinking and complicated a lot of stuff that were pretty simple (like the hair thing which simple to understand the history behind it).


Isn't that what we always do as fans :Smile:

----------


## Alycat

> Isn't that what we always do as fans


Yes that's what makes it fun I guess. But  at the same time its like guys sometimes a pen is just a pen.

----------


## Rise

Maybe when I was teenger, but not anymore.

I used to hang out with type of fans who never took things too seriously and just enjoy themselves while still have a lot of good discussions and theories about the stories they follow. Only fans who took things too seriously were the shippers who were easy to avoid.

Nowdays, fans take fictional work far more seriously that it deserves.

----------


## TheCape

I kind of agreed with you, but sometimes overthinking is fun for me. But other times is just better to take things as they are presented and not going beyond that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Daww how cute
> 
> I REALLY REALLY wish the fact that they both enjoyed Shakespeare was brought up. What a great connective point to start some kind of dialogue between them.


I wish some DC writer would explore the idea of Jason and Cass coming together and at least forging a strong friendship if nothing else. I think there is a lot of potential there that could be explored and both characters could benefit from it as well I think. They both could always use more friends and I think the dynamic between him and Cass could be interesting.

----------


## kiwiliko

> This author is overthinking and complicated a lot of stuff that were pretty simple (like the hair thing which simple to understand the history behind it).
> 
> Jason's sympathy and strong feelings towards females in general (not necessarily just prostitutes) simply come from his mother being more involved in his life and his rough upbringing. He lived in a place where he saw a lot of violence (maybe mostly against women) and him being the one who took care of his mom played role on why he become protective.
> 
> And the whole bi thing will never make any sense because he has never in any way seemed interested in guys no matter how hard tumblr try to insert their headcanons nor there is anything "bigot" about him being just straight (interestingly enough, I finally understood why fangirls are obsessed with making every male character into gay or bi after reading interesting analysis by someone).


 Guess I'm kind of the opposite since I enjoy rereading old stuff pretty often and having those details to poke at make it make things more fun for me personally.
Honest to god I have never seen anyone call him bigot for being straight even on tumblr and most of the analysis/long thought posts on picking apart characters are ones I see coming from gen focus writers not shippers.

----------


## Rise

It's not him who they call bigot. 

There's a popular Jason blogger that got called a bitch and bigot for saying that Jason is straight. Not to mention the bi latino fiasco where they literally wished for Lobdedll to die and attacked people who dared to calm the situation by calling them a bigot homophobic white trash. The tumbler fanbase is simply awful and the reason why I dislike the "bi" subject with Jason (of course not all them like that, but people who do these awful things are always louder unfortunately and give a bad name to their community).

----------


## Aahz

> Jason's sympathy and strong feelings towards females in general (not necessarily just prostitutes) simply come from his mother being more involved in his life and his rough upbringing. He lived in a place where he saw a lot of violence (maybe mostly against women) and him being the one who took care of his mom played role on why he become protective.


I "Jason's sympathy and strong feelings towards females" is non sense. He generally cares for people that cant defend them self. That are usually woman and children, but in Lost Days he mentions for example that he killed one of his female teachers, who wanted to kill her Husband and her kids.

And if he runs into female villains he treats them the same way as male villains.

----------


## kiwiliko

> It's not him who they call bigot. 
> 
> There's a popular Jason blogger that got called a bitch and bigot for saying that Jason is straight. Not to mention the bi latino fiasco where they literally wished for Lobdedll to die and attacked people who dared to calm the situation by calling them a bigot homophobic white trash. The tumbler fanbase is simply awful and the reason why I dislike the "bi" subject with Jason (of course not all them like that, but people who do these awful things are always louder unfortunately and give a bad name to their community).


Well dang. 
I dealt with some nuts fanbases on tumblr too before and actually shifted mostly to DC to avoid them (one that made a list of people they deemed dirty and encouraged others to witchhunt with, turned ironically funny after they unknowningly added an art director working on the said show.) I will admit latino Jason bothers me a heck of a lot more than bi Jason though because I've seen a post similar to what you say and their reasoning for latino Jason was just entirely based around "he used to be poor" therefore he must have been latino. 
That's unfortunate though, I'm guessing this was drama from a while ago? Hope the blogger wasn't driven off by this.

----------


## Rise

I wouldn't call it "non sense" since he once beat up a guy just for calling some random woman names and always seem to get along with them better than with males. 

I do think it's exaggerated and over analysed tho.

----------


## Alycat

> Well dang. 
> I dealt with some nuts fanbases on tumblr too before and actually shifted mostly to DC to avoid them (one that made a list of people they deemed dirty and encouraged others to witchhunt with, turned ironically funny after they unknowningly added an art director working on the said show.) I will admit latino Jason bothers me a heck of a lot more than bi Jason though because I've seen a post similar to what you say and their reasoning for latino Jason was just entirely based around "he used to be poor" therefore he must have been latino. 
> That's unfortunate though, I'm guessing this was drama from a while ago? Hope the blogger wasn't driven off by this.


That's the exact reason why latino Jason bothered me too. Like can you not see the sterotypes you perpetuate with that sort of stuff. Duke and Luke for all my criticsims of them at least avoid that.

----------


## AJpyro

> It's not him who they call bigot. 
> 
> There's a popular Jason blogger that got called a bitch and bigot for saying that Jason is straight. Not to mention the bi latino fiasco where they literally wished for Lobdedll to die and attacked people who dared to calm the situation by calling them a bigot homophobic white trash. The tumbler fanbase is simply awful and the reason why I dislike the "bi" subject with Jason (of course not all them like that, but people who do these awful things are always louder unfortunately and give a bad name to their community).


...I just can't friggin win with Tumblr. It's like everytime they look into the stuff I watch, there's always a part that goes on about kill yourself" or "bigots". Just can't win.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I "Jason's sympathy and strong feelings towards females" is non sense. He generally cares for people that cant defend them self. That are usually woman and children, but in Lost Days he mentions for example that he killed one of his female teachers, who wanted to kill her Husband and her kids.
> 
> And if he runs into female villains he treats them the same way as male villains.


Probably should've been more clear about what I was trying to say.
I don't mean he treats women special but I do find that most hero characters appear way more in situations where they're the clear moral winner. Jason's been involved in a lot of situations that we judge ambivalently in real life and they do happen to feature a lot of women dominant problems (rape, abuse and prostitution especially gather a mixed crowd of responses) and it stands out in comparison because most of how he reacts to these situations is on the defensive angle. Probably exaggerated in fanwork but I won't say there's nothing to support that he does have strong feelings on these topics.

----------


## Aahz

> I wouldn't call it "non sense" since he once beat up a guy just for calling some random woman names and always seem to get along with them better than with males.


Which story are you referring too?

If you refer to this story: 

the woman wasn't random, she was a prostitute working for that guy, they guy was going to do much more than just calling her names and just a page earlies Jason had witnessed how a judge let dumpster slasher walk.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:
> 
> https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928


Whaaa lovely!

----------


## kiwiliko

> Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:
> 
> https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928


Dang that's cute. Of course he has the full set too, take his offer Cass!

----------


## G-Potion

I'd also like to add on the subject of Bi/Pan Jason. My preference toward it is partly because so far, of all the dynamics Jason has had with different characters, more often male ones (Bruce, Dick, Roy, Black Mask, Bizarro...) are usually the ones filled with more intense emotions and all of them has aspects that can be worked into romantic tension (not that all of them should). Even in the current RHATO, at the moment I feel like whatever it is between Jason and Bizarro is more intense than Jason and Artemis, despite the tease for the latter. 

As a currently identified aromantic, asexual person, I do think romance is overrated, and it irks me a little bit to see it being often regarded as the most important relationship ever and the romantic parner, as soon as they are identified as such, being the most important person. I would want to see, if Jason has insane dynamic with a male character, would it be allowed to develop into something, if not romantic ("apparently highest in rank"), then better yet, even higher than that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'd also like to add on the subject of Bi/Pan Jason. My preference toward it is partly because so far, of all the dynamics Jason has had with different characters, more often male ones (Bruce, Dick, Roy, Black Mask, Bizarro...) are usually the ones filled with more intense emotions and all of them has aspects that can be worked into romantic tension (not that all of them should). Even in the current RHATO, at the moment I feel like whatever it is between Jason and Bizarro is more intense than Jason and Artemis, despite the tease for the latter. 
> 
> As a currently identified aromantic, asexual person, I do think romance is overrated, and it irks me a little bit to see it being often regarded as the most important relationship ever and the romantic parner, as soon as they are identified as such, being the most important person. I would want to see, *if Jason has insane dynamic with a male character, would it be allowed to develop into something, if not romantic ("apparently highest in rank"), then better yet, even higher than that.*


That was the entire point of RH/A

----------


## G-Potion

> That was the entire point of RH/A


I would love to think so. Though it isn't boldly acknowledged as such is the point. You read between the lines, you look at the action. Whereas if it's a romantic one, immediately the partner gets the privilege of being regarded as the most important person ever, instant gratification sort of thing. It's like, apparently you can't use the word "love" if it's not familial or romantic. If you are afraid people will get wrong impressions, use "trust" instead. When can a character say they love, in a meaning that transcends typical classification of relationships?

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'd also like to add on the subject of Bi/Pan Jason. My preference toward it is partly because so far, of all the dynamics Jason has had with different characters, more often male ones (Bruce, Dick, Roy, Black Mask, Bizarro...) are usually the ones filled with more intense emotions and all of them has aspects that can be worked into romantic tension (not that all of them should). Even in the current RHATO, at the moment I feel like whatever it is between Jason and Bizarro is more intense than Jason and Artemis, despite the tease for the latter. 
> 
> As a currently identified aromantic, asexual person, I do think romance is overrated, and it irks me a little bit to see it being often regarded as the most important relationship ever and the romantic parner, as soon as they are identified as such, being the most important person. I would want to see, if Jason has insane dynamic with a male character, would it be allowed to develop into something, if not romantic ("apparently highest in rank"), then better yet, even higher than that.


Yes thank god I thought I was secretly going crazy.
The second I saw Black Mask come back into RHATO I knew that somewhere on the internet, Black Mask just became part of a hero/villain ship for Jason. I can't deny his relationships of emotional intensity do tend to be with other males but at the same, majority of the surrounding cast in batfamily is male and the last female he had any intensity with was Talia in which canon does end up having sleep together. It's still likely there is merit to the idea that a good deal of ship speculation seems to be applicable to any form of intensity stemming from a canon interaction, not just ones that are teased to and eventually do form a relationship as dictated by said canon.

For RHATO, it looks like Artemis and Jason went through some development in 1-10 and have settled into a comfortable dynamic which is giving us the room to explore more of Bizarro's arc currently. I know some people have decided immediately they see father/son or big bro/little bro dynamics for Biz and Jason but I have a waaay harder time trying to describe their relationship just because we've teetered from Jason taking a guiding role to playing videogames with Biz like an equal friend up to Biz hiding letters because he thinks this is what keeps Jason from being hurt. It's got some extremes happening in terms of power shifting and changing dynamics and chances are this could be up there with Roy/Jason in terms of platonic love that moves beyond a typical friendship. The changing dynamics do add for serious emotional intensity and I think if a calmer dynamic Artemis weren't there to keep that balance, it might even be too much too fast for this book.




> I would love to think so. Though it isn't boldly acknowledged as such is the point. You read between the lines, you look at the action. Whereas if it's a romantic one, immediately the partner gets the privilege of being regarded as the most important person ever, instant gratification sort of thing. It's like, apparently you can't use the word "love" if it's not familial or romantic. If you are afraid people will get wrong impressions, use "trust" instead. When can a character say they love, in a meaning that transcends typical classification of relationships?


This might just be something that applies to real life biases though. I know enough others that can meet and elevate complete strangers immediately most important person in their life because the very idea that your status is now dating carries a lot of implications and for many it means someone just became most important even if the kind of time and committment that goes into a relationship hasn't been established yet. Maybe some people operate with this and make it work for them but I feel the potential messups you have with this mindset outweigh any benefits personally and kind of hurts the idea of friendships as a valued relationship too. This sort of thing does make me wonder if a good deal of ships out there are really meant to be romantic or if some of them just have no way of trying to communicate "this relationship is beyond friendship into platonic love" but will never get treated as that love because it wasn't deemed romantic love. 

Also @G I am so sorry I keep word vomitting all my replies to your posts (do love all these discussions you bring up though.)

----------


## magpieM

> As a currently identified aromantic, asexual person, I do think romance is overrated, and it irks me a little bit to see it being often regarded as the most important relationship ever and the romantic parner, as soon as they are identified as such, being the most important person. I would want to see, if Jason has insane dynamic with a male character, would it be allowed to develop into something, if not romantic ("apparently highest in rank"), then better yet, even higher than that.


I agree. Romance is not always necessary to be the deepest interaction/feelings that two people can have. A lot of fans began to ship Bruce/Jason after UTRH movie. Well it's true that there was too much love and hate between them and it did look like Jason was over-obsessed by Batman. But my personal feeling about it is like: turning the nature between their relationship into romance is kind of making it "paler". Their relationship involves real blood & death, intense hate/revenge/obsession, and eventually, ultimate morality conflict about loyalty and justice... they all far beyond romance.

----------


## magpieM

And speaking of romance, I think the closest thing we have right now is Jason & Artemis. I remember that it was pushed a little by the editor many issues ago. In the earlier interview Lobdell did not seem to be very keen to put them together just because they are in one team. Editor and a lot of readers like their interactions. Not sure what's Lobdell's opinion now, especially after the editor had changed.

Do you guys like the romance in their relationship keeping growing? It's fun to see that in issue #15 Jason was talking about his previous brave action while Artemis was distracted: "..., 'Batman who?' Then I kissed Catwoman right on the lips. And we flew away on a magic unicorn with dyslexia. ...Are you even listening to me?" (Cat and Bat are engaged now...)

I'm OK if their relationship continues to warm up. But on the other hand, Lobdell said he preferred some drama, namely something like _Romeo and Juliet_. I wonder if he had anyone in mind already? Or maybe just a vague idea. My knowledge about DC characters is very limited. Imagine Jason falls in love with someone, who is from a clan against the Bats, or someone Batman strongly disapproves. I have no idea who would be the candidate.

Overall, I like Jason & Artemis being together. But it'd be even better for me to see some amazing drama in Jason's romance. I'm not a strong supporter for any ships, nor do I mind if this "Juliet" is a woman or man. It's just my personal view.

----------


## Aioros22

Do we have way to know who pushed/is/was pushing for the idea? I`m not interely sure Loedbell doesn`t have that as a possible endgame from the earlier stages of Rebirth.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's not him who they call bigot. 
> 
> There's a popular Jason blogger that got called a bitch and bigot for saying that Jason is straight. Not to mention the bi latino fiasco where they literally wished for Lobdedll to die and attacked people who dared to calm the situation by calling them a bigot homophobic white trash. The tumbler fanbase is simply awful and the reason why I dislike the "bi" subject with Jason (of course not all them like that, but people who do these awful things are always louder unfortunately and give a bad name to their community).


Shit, that`s deep. 

Deeply stupid. Some fandom want so desperatly have what they feel is outlawed in themselves (and I`m using "feel" freely I know, it still is very much eyed upon these days, stupidily 2.0) in the character they like that they will force upon others and even creators and end up being "those guys".

Should a character bend or come out just because of some fanbase? I rather think what the character represents already (ideals, themes!) is more meaningful than sexual identities or should be. Then again I`m mostly a straight European guy with a bi experience that never have felt any sort of pushover abuse because I mostly dig chicks and thus don`t scare people blah blah, so what do I know.

----------


## G-Potion

> I can't deny his relationships of emotional intensity do tend to be with other males but at the same, majority of the surrounding cast in batfamily is male and the last female he had any intensity with was Talia in which canon does end up having sleep together.


It's true and that's why Talia is up there as one of the characters I want Jason to interact with the most. She has with Jason what he has with other males characters, in that their dynamic doesn't have one label to successfully describe it nor does it necessarily aim to be anything specific in the end and because of it, that they can take it to unsafe places, messed up as it might be. Jason and Duela is also a strong one for me. Of all the romantic relationships that Jason has had, none of them comes close to being as nearly as interesting. I do think Essence had potential though, and wish to see her again. With Artemis I still don't have enough of her treating Jason like a 5-year-old yet.




> I know some people have decided immediately they see father/son or big bro/little bro dynamics for Biz and Jason but I have a waaay harder time trying to describe their relationship just because we've teetered from Jason taking a guiding role to playing videogames with Biz like an equal friend up to Biz hiding letters because he thinks this is what keeps Jason from being hurt. It's got some extremes happening in terms of power shifting and changing dynamics and chances are this could be up there with Roy/Jason in terms of platonic love that moves beyond a typical friendship. The changing dynamics do add for serious emotional intensity and I think if a calmer dynamic Artemis weren't there to keep that balance, it might even be too much too fast for this book.


Yes I don't see it as quite clearly one thing or another either. And if what Bizarro is doing is gonna have repercussion later, it's a risk they are taking with the already loved status quo. I love it. As for Jason and Artemis, I'm fine with how they are, and if they later end up together that's good too. However at the moment I think the teases have been coming a bit too much too soon and I don't really feel earned yet. Granted, they could totally be read as platonic but I don't trust that was the intention from editorial.




> This sort of thing does make me wonder if a good deal of ships out there are really meant to be romantic or if some of them just have no way of trying to communicate "this relationship is beyond friendship into platonic love" but will never get treated as that love because it wasn't deemed romantic love.


I think this is how I see ships as well. As long as it presents a dynamic with emotional complexity and intensity, I'm on it, whether it's the romantic variety or not. Fictional sexual tension bores me to death to be honest. 




> Also @G I am so sorry I keep word vomitting all my replies to your posts (do love all these discussions you bring up though.)


Nah keep throwing words at me kiwi. It's good read really. And I have to admit I'm glad that we're at a point where we can bring this into a polite discussion without kneejerk reactions because of its affiliation to fanfic, tumblr and whatnot.

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree. Romance is not always necessary to be the deepest interaction/feelings that two people can have. A lot of fans began to ship Bruce/Jason after UTRH movie. Well it's true that there was too much love and hate between them and it did look like Jason was over-obsessed by Batman. But my personal feeling about it is like: turning the nature between their relationship into romance is kind of making it "paler". Their relationship involves real blood & death, intense hate/revenge/obsession, and eventually, ultimate morality conflict about loyalty and justice... they all far beyond romance.


I feel this so much magpieM. Moreoever, because existing dynamics with these characters are already that rich and unpredictable, I can hardly be enthusiastic when presented with a character who is prematurely dictated to be a future romantic partner. And it happens so many times with female characters.

----------


## G-Potion

> Do we have way to know who pushed/is/was pushing for the idea? I`m not interely sure Loedbell doesn`t have that as a possible endgame from the earlier stages of Rebirth.


I think it's best that you judge it by the man's words. Start from 1:08:00.

https://soundcloud.com/down-and-nerd...nd-the-outlaws

----------


## Rise

Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since he didn't understand why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either. 

There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.




> more often male ones (Bruce, *Dick*, Roy,* Black Mask*, Bizarro...) are usually the ones filled with more intense emotions and all


What?

----------


## G-Potion

> Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since he didn't understand why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either. 
> 
> There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.


I don't feel the same way you do about Talia, but that's besides the point. I was talking about how these dynamics interest me because they are complex and risky. It doesn't make a better relationship nor does it mean Jason likes her better. It just means it's more interesting to me.




> What?


I meant what I said. For Dick it's conflicting between admiration, envy, bitterness you name it. For Black Mask, I'm simplifying it but there is hatred from Jason's part, but on the other hand, the mind game and the dad card he plays on Jason makes this not as simple because he does hit a nerve. I don't mean intense as a positive thing. It's just what it is.

----------


## Rise

> I don't feel the same way you do about Talia, but that's besides the point. I was talking about how these dynamics interest me because they are complex and risky. It doesn't make a better relationship nor does it mean Jason likes her better. It just means it's more interesting to me.


And I was stating my opinion about her relationship with Jason, not her character. Which why I didn't qoute anyone. 

As far as I concerned, she was pretty selfish with him and she used him to get Bruce's love. It's not a dynamic I care to see more of it since Talia is a mess of a character now.




> I meant what I said. For Dick it's conflicting between admiration, envy, bitterness you name it. For Black Mask, I'm simplifying it but there is hatred from Jason's part, but on the other hand, the mind game and the dad card he plays on Jason makes this not as simple because he does hit a nerve. I don't mean intense as a positive thing. It's just what it is.


Jason and Dick don't have an actual relationship since the writers can't make up their mind about what their relationship supposed to be. The "envy, bitterness" was never about Dick and it was always about Bruce himself. Jason also never admired Dick as a person since he was never involved in his life and he only admired his accomplishments as Robin.

And he doesn't have a relationship with BM either to put it at the same catogry as Bruce, Roy and Bizarro. The dynamic between them in the first arc was about challenging Jason's views and morals and that's it. 

Heck, Jason actually has more of connection and intense relationship with the joker than any of these two since they both impacted each other in a big way.

----------


## Alycat

If Jason and Artemis don't happen then I will think about writing a slightly angry tweet to Lobdell and never sending it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason and Dick don't have an actual relationship since the writers can't make up their mind about what their relationship supposed to be. The "envy, bitterness" was never about Dick and it was always about Bruce himself. Jason also never admired Dick as a person since he was never involved in his life and he only admired his accomplishments as Robin.
> 
> And he doesn't have a relationship with BM either to put it at the same catogry as Bruce, Roy and Bizarro. The dynamic between them in the first arc was about challenging Jason's views and morals and that's it. 
> 
> Heck, Jason actually has more of connection and intense relationship with the joker than any of these two since they both impacted each other in a big way.


Personally I feel Jason has always respected, if not admired, Dick to an extent, just as he can respect any capable vigilante (not at hero worship level, but again, I don't read it that way from the annual either). As for his more negative emotions, sure Bruce was at the heart of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Jason spent his years keeping up with Dick's achievement, and thinking that Bruce would have done more for Dick. I don't think Jason pre-Rebirth was unbiased enough to not let it bleed into how he feels about Dick. On the other hand, I would think Dick harbors some guilt about his neglect of Jason as well. 

Anyway, I didn't put Dick and BM together with the others because I think the dynamics are equally strong. I did it because I think they all have that tension and conflict I find lacking when it comes to Jason and many female characters.

Joker while affected Jason in big way, I don't think there's any need to explore their dynamics. Pure hatred. That's it to me. And Joker has become too boring for me to even consider him in any way.

----------


## G-Potion

> If Jason and Artemis don't happen then I will think about writing a slightly angry tweet to Lobdell and never sending it.


If you're not sending it why stop at slightly angry? Go wild.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since _he didn't understand_ why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either. 
> 
> There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.
> 
> 
> What?


Ehhh, I`m on the fence about that. Since Jason was the antagonist he had to write Batman with the rigtheous moral stance to constrast but he didn`t write Jason in the wrong either. 

UTRH works the best when both sides preset a valid philosophy on crimefighting and I believe the consequent takes on it like in Arkham knight, shed the same light. Jason`s views are perverted by what happened to him but then again...so is Batman`s.

----------


## Rise

> Personally I feel Jason has always respected, if not admired, Dick to an extent, just as he can respect any capable vigilante (not at hero worship level, but again, I don't read it that way from the annual either). As for his more negative emotions, sure Bruce was at the heart of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Jason spent his years keeping up with Dick's achievement, and thinking that Bruce would have done more for Dick. I don't think Jason pre-Rebirth was unbiased enough to not let it bleed into how he feels about Dick. On the other hand, I would think Dick harbors some guilt about his neglect of Jason as well. 
> 
> Anyway, I didn't put Dick and BM together with the others because I think the dynamics are equally strong. I did it because I think they all have that tension and conflict I find lacking when it comes to Jason and many female characters.
> 
> Joker while affected Jason in big way, I don't think there's any need to explore their dynamics. Pure hatred. That's it to me. And Joker has become too boring for me to even consider him in any way.


I personally think he just respected what he accomplished, but not him personally. I have read all of Jason's Robin stories from pre to post crisis and I can count in one hand the times he thought or mentioned him (including his interactions with him) and the reason why he thought of him as measurement was really all because he wanted Bruce to trust him as his robin. His insecurity about "Bruce would have done this for him, but not for me!" happened after he come back which was mainly due to his mental state and the fact there was only him and Dick in Bruce's life before he died. It was unforuntly overplayed later due to the laziness of the writers.

I actually think Jason and Joker dynamic is still untapped potential since they will always be connected to each othet. Their twisted dynamic in AK:G was the highlight and the reason why I thing they could do more in the main universe instead of the awful DOTF story.

----------


## Rise

> Ehhh, I`m on the fence about that. Since Jason was the antagonist he had to write Batman with the rigtheous moral stance to constrast but he didn`t write Jason in the wrong either. 
> 
> UTRH works the best when both sides preset a valid philosophy on crimefighting and I believe the consequent takes on it like in Arkham knight, shed the same light. Jason`s views are perverted by what happened to him but then again...so is Batman`s.


I don't think so either, but he stated in interview that he was surprised that many fans supported Jason instead of Batman and wanted to show that him and Talia were in wrong in LD.

Winick changed his view on the situation years later, tho.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Yes I don't see it as quite clearly one thing or another either. And if what Bizarro is doing is gonna have repercussion later, it's a risk they are taking with the already loved status quo. I love it. As for Jason and Artemis, I'm fine with how they are, and if they later end up together that's good too. However at the moment I think the teases have been coming a bit too much too soon and I don't really feel earned yet. Granted, they could totally be read as platonic but I don't trust that was the intention from editorial.


Heck yes, I love seeing the outlaws unafraid to push that status quo too. One of the trends I see near tumblr that I absolutely don't enjoy is this idea that we shouldn't give any screentime to relationships based on strong negative/ambivalent emotion or relationships that go through periods with unhealthy dynamics during their development. There's a time and place for those wholesome pure subjects but if that's all that's allowed in fiction then fiction becomes quite boring. I would love to see the outlaws come out with an evolved and stronger than before dynamic but good relationships are messy too and I absolutely intend to enjoy every step of the struggle it takes for them to fight and earn their way to a good end. 

As for Jason and Artemis, I so so do not want to fall into the old rabbit hole and be guilty of seeing a ship just because a guy and girl happen to be on a team together, god knows there's too much of that happening in comics already. But dang it I have not had enough of their dynamic, "picks you up by the scruff at her whim" Artemis is pretty awesome next to "then we rode on a dyslexic unicorn" Jason. I think it's one of the few situations where if romance does end up happening, at least it feels more organic compared to other comics because they have a decently strong friendship base being built up first.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I actually think Jason and Joker dynamic is still untapped potential since they will always be connected to each othet. Their twisted dynamic in AK:G was the highlight and the reason why I thing they could do more in the main universe instead of the awful DOTF story.


The unfortunate thing is Joker is being so heavily used just about everywhere that it's going to be hard to mine anything more from his character. Joker as a villain is always going to be handed to Bruce centered stories first just out of sheer popularity and despite being a serial killer type, overexposure means he's not as unpredictable a character as he could be. 

Probably something could come out of exploring Joker and Jason interactions but DOTF just convinces me Bruce will always take center stage in a story with the family regardless if it actually makes the narrative stronger or not.

----------


## Rise

> The unfortunate thing is Joker is being so heavily used just about everywhere that it's going to be hard to mine anything more from his character. Joker as a villain is always going to be handed to Bruce centered stories first just out of sheer popularity and despite being a serial killer type, overexposure means he's not as unpredictable a character as he could be. 
> 
> Probably something could come out of exploring Joker and Jason interactions but DOTF just convinces me Bruce will always take center stage in a story with the family regardless if it actually makes the narrative stronger or not.


DOTF was Batman's story after all and the tie-ins with the batfamily was done purely for $$$.

The explorition of their dynamic should happen in Jason's own book under his own writer and even with Joker being overexposed, the story with both of them is still unexplored territory that a capable write can do wonder with.

----------


## Alycat

> If you're not sending it why stop at slightly angry? Go wild.


I honestly can't think of anything involving ships that actually makes me angry. Just why??? at most.

----------


## G-Potion

> I honestly can't think of anything involving ships that actually makes me angry. Just why??? at most.


I know. I just imagined you went on fake rage mode and wrote a hilarious hate tweet.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

> I know. I just imagined you went on fake rage mode and wrote a hilarious hate tweet.


yeah your right, that's exactly what I was thinking. But even my fake rage isn't that strong. Honestly, though, Lobdell can't tease me and then leave it hanging.

----------


## Jovos2099

I had a thought what would have happened if death in the family had never happened and so jason never died how would the batfamily have evolved then?

----------


## Aahz

> I had a thought what would have happened if death in the family had never happened and so jason never died how would the batfamily have evolved then?


Similarly just with Jason taking Tims place.

----------


## RedBird

> I had a thought what would have happened if death in the family had never happened and so jason never died how would the batfamily have evolved then?


Same as usual. Except Tim would not exist, and there wouldnt be such a heavy threat of death (robins death) to weigh upon future characters, like Steph for example.

----------


## G-Potion

> I had a thought what would have happened if death in the family had never happened and so jason never died how would the batfamily have evolved then?


Bruce would be less of an ass for one.

----------


## RedBird

> Bruce would be less of an ass for one.


I mean I think DC were trying to make it a goal to make Bruce more 'dark and edgy' regardless, and DITF just gave them the excuse to go through with it. But yeah, Bruce was WAY WAY better, before Jason died.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce would be less of an ass for one.


Not really, grumpy looner Batman would have been a thing with or without DitF, and if they really needed an excuse they could have find another one except Jasons death (I mean how many of Bruce love interests got killed over the years ...).

----------


## TheCape

> But yeah, Bruce was WAY WAY better, before Jason died.


He was still more or less reasonable after Tim joined, i mean he could be a bit cold (specially under Dixon), but there was no doubt that he still cared. Then in the Post-Zero Hour continuity he became more dark and edgy and probably started the tendency of Batman being more of an ashole to his allies around 96 or 97 and it went througth the roof in the early 2000s with Rucka.

----------


## RedBird

> He was still more or less reasonable after Tim joined, i mean he could be a bit cold (specially under Dixon), but there was no doubt that he still cared. Then in the Post-Zero Hour continuity he became more dark and edgy and probably started the tendency of Batman being more of an ashole to his allies around 96 or 97 and it went througth the roof in the early 2000s with Rucka.


Oh for sure, he didnt turn into the asshole we see nowadays overnight, no doubt. But he definitely wasn't as 'nice' or 'open' as he had been before, after DITF was when he _began_ spiraling downwards with some ups and downs (depending on the writer). We didnt see the worst of this 'new and broodier' batman till (as you mention) years later.

----------


## TheCape

Somebody in another thread that Batman didn't feel like the same characther since Knigthfall, maybe it was there when the true downfall happened.

----------


## Rise

Nothing will ever come close to early 80s Batman. Since DITF, Batman has become Mr. Full Angst and Pain compared to how he was before where there was a good balance between him being Bruce Wayne and the dark knight. 

One of my favourite issues of Batman ever was the one where he just wanted to sleep. It's was really funny issue that showed how much work Bruce does by being a father (his conversation with Jason's teacher was really hilarious) taking care of the Wayne company and being Batman at night. That's Batman by the end of the day was just human who needs his rest like everyone else. It's shame that we don't get issues like that anymore.

----------


## RedBird

> Nothing will ever come close to early 80s Batman. Since DITF, Batman has become Mr. Full Angst and Pain compared to how he was before where there was a good balance between him being Bruce Wayne and the dark knight. 
> 
> One of my favourite issues of Batman ever was the one where he just wanted to sleep. It's was really funny issue that showed how much work Bruce does by being a father (his conversation with Jason's teacher was really hilarious) taking care of the Wayne company and being Batman at night. That's Batman by the end of the day was just human who needs his rest like everyone else. It's shame that we don't get issues like that anymore.


Exactly! Thats the Bruce Wayne, Batman, and 'batdad' that I miss.

----------


## kiwiliko

from: avataraandy.tumblr.com
Dork hood is dork hood even if I can say I've done the exact same thing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well now



This is seemingly from Soy's Instagram but if is from there, he has erased the picture already. That honestly, it brings more questions.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well now
> 
> This is seemingly from Soy's Instagram but if is from there, he has erased the picture already. That honestly, it brings more questions.


Wow. Not sure how I feel about this.

----------


## EMarie

He might like the pairing or did a commission. Honestly I wouldn't mind either way if it happens or not. At the very least Lobdell would build it up. Sometimes I get story whiplash with these pairings that come out of no where. Some are claiming the hints are already there for this one. Personally I can see both POVs.

----------


## Assam

I don't support Jason and Artemis as a couple, but my biggest problem with that art is just that Jason is drawn as being as tall as Artemis. I know that's happened a few times in the actual book as well but...no.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't support Jason and Artemis as a couple, but my biggest problem with that art is just that Jason is drawn as being as tall as Artemis. I know that's happened a few times in the actual book as well but...no.


From this pic it doesn't look like Artemis is standing at full height. But of course I'd have preferred it if she was drawn leaning down so that height difference is clear.

----------


## G-Potion

> from: avataraandy.tumblr.com
> Dork hood is dork hood even if I can say I've done the exact same thing.


My. Theatricality backfires this time.  :Big Grin:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I don't support Jason and Artemis as a couple, but my biggest problem with that art is just that Jason is drawn as being as tall as Artemis. I know that's happened a few times in the actual book as well but...no.


Hasn't this been discussed before and according to ~guide books~ or whatever, they're the same height? (I prefer Artemis to be taller, but idk what is considered "canon.")

----------


## G-Potion

Yes, though I don't usually put much stock into it seeing as very little care goes into making these books. I just don't like that Artemis is most of the time drawn as taller than Jason, but everytime they share an intimate moment, she's suddenly his height.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Well now
> 
> This is seemingly from Soy's Instagram but if is from there, he has erased the picture already. That honestly, it brings more questions.


I've seen this with comments of people upset, but I couldn't tell, is this an edit, or what he actually posted? And was there a caption? It could be a commission, for all we know.

----------


## Alycat

> Well now
> 
> 
> 
> This is seemingly from Soy's Instagram but if is from there, he has erased the picture already. That honestly, it brings more questions.


Pls don't play with my heart this way Soy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I've seen this with comments of people upset, but I couldn't tell, is this an edit, or what he actually posted? And was there a caption? It could be a commission, for all we know.





> I've seen this with comments of people upset, but I couldn't tell, is this an edit, or what he actually posted? And was there a caption? It could be a commission, for all we know.


Soy never posts unfinished commissions and when he posts the finished ones, is a photo of it; no the actual picture. 

Hard to know if that is something that was actually posted but at the very least, that handle and avatar is from his instagram.

----------


## EMarie

> Yes, though I don't usually put much stock into it seeing as very little care goes into making these books. I just don't like that Artemis is most of the time drawn as taller than Jason, but everytime they share an intimate moment, she's suddenly his height.


Artemis wears heels when in uniform, she doesn't seem to when their wearing causal clothes. When they share intimate moments their usually leaning against each other. It doesn't bother me as the art is usually solid. I get the impression if they did date she'd just carry him around more anyway.

As for this being from Soy...I'm not sure. The line work seems like a rougher version of his art, it doesn't have the more polished look of his finished pieces. Sure it's not completed but it feels off. The vital part--their faces--aren't visible making it harder to judge. Does Soy draw hoods like that? And isn't Artemis' hair usually longer?

----------


## G-Potion

> Artemis wears heels when in uniform, she doesn't seem to when their wearing causal clothes. When they share intimate moments their usually leaning against each other. It doesn't bother me as the art is usually solid. I get the impression if they did date she'd just carry him around more anyway.


That's true but I personally feel that reasoning is still forced (speaking for myself as I did use it to convince myself everytime it happens) and some other moments where they have same postures don't justify it. 




> As for this being from Soy...I'm not sure. The line work seems like a rougher version of his art, it doesn't have the more polished look of his finished pieces. Sure it's not completed but it feels off. The vital part--their faces--aren't visible making it harder to judge. Does Soy draw hoods like that? And isn't Artemis' hair usually longer?


Yeah I have my doubt as well. But why would anyone do this?

----------


## TheSupernaut

I'm still holding a torch for Jason and Rose one day.

----------


## magpieM

Honestly if you show me that figure without telling me who made it, I wouldn't even believe it's Soy's work. It doesn't look like his style. Random doodling maybe? I'm very suspicious of it, as well as that account.




> I'm still holding a torch for Jason and Rose one day.


Oh that would be fun.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I don't support Jason and Artemis as a couple, but my biggest problem with that art is just that Jason is drawn as being as tall as Artemis. I know that's happened a few times in the actual book as well but...no.


Yeees, let Jason be the shortie for once.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if it's just personal sketching. Most artists have their own ideas of the characters too and it doesn't look like that's set up to be appearing in any panels or bg. Marcus To has taken Tim/Kon comissions before so it's not like the idea of drawing ships for comission or for fun would be alien to them either.

----------


## EMarie

> That's true but I personally feel that reasoning is still forced (speaking for myself as I did use it to convince myself everytime it happens) and some other moments where they have same postures don't justify it. 
> 
> Yeah I have my doubt as well. But why would anyone do this?


Artemis is shown taller than Jason thanks to the heels a good amount of time. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where the heights are messed up are close up shots. Personally I get more distracted by her hair length.

If the picture isn't from Soy then maybe it was fan art someone used to troll people with? It's a rough drawing so I can't entirely rule out the possibility Soy did it. From what I hear the person who posted it claimed they had to do a lot of digging to find it.

----------


## Aioros22

Artemis will always be taller for me. That`s part of the charm. 

On an unrelated set of news I just read that the Bendis (yes, that one!) has just now moved to DC exclusively. May Kirby help us all.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> If the picture isn't from Soy then maybe it was fan art someone used to troll people with? It's a rough drawing so I can't entirely rule out the possibility Soy did it. From what I hear the person who posted it claimed they had to do a lot of digging to find it.


That's...weird. Because it says his Instagram user name, so why would they have to dig when that's public? Is there only one person claiming to have seen it on his Instagram?

Someone can just ask him on his Twitter.

----------


## G-Potion

> On an unrelated set of news I just read that the Bendis (yes, that one!) has just now moved to DC exclusively. May Kirby help us all.


I don't read Marvel and even I feel a sense of dread haha.

----------


## Aioros22

It depends. Later era Bendis who would write five series a month without giving a care of what writers were doing with those characters in other books - let`s call it megalomanic Bendis - is mostly dissapointing. Now, on the other hand, solo Bendis, the one who would take one, two books a month and poured actually good writting in it (Alias, Powers, Daredevil, etc) that is something I have interest on. That Bendis would be a great candidate for a mini or series or urban nigthmare with Jason Todd. 

He basically made his name sinking his teeth in that sort of themes.

----------


## G-Potion

> It depends. Later era Bendis who would write five series a month without giving a care of what writers were doing with those characters in other books - let`s call it megalomanic Bendis - is mostly dissapointing. Now, on the other hand, solo Bendis, the one who would take one, two books a month and poured actually good writting in it (Alias, Powers, Daredevil, etc) that is something I have interest on. That Bendis would be a great candidate for a mini or series or urban nigthmare with Jason Todd. 
> 
> He basically made his name sinking his teeth in that sort of themes.


That makes me more interested now. But probably it will just be something Batman again.

----------


## adrikito

Chibi outlaws:

chibi outlaws.jpg

selfie:
outlaws selfie.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> Yeees, let Jason be the shortie for once.


I'm not a fan of Jason being short. And especially when he is around the rest of the Batfamily I would like to seem him drawn taller and bulkier and not with the same hight and build as Dick.

----------


## Assam

> I'm not a fan of Jason being short. And especially when he is around the rest of the Batfamily I would like to seem him drawn taller and bulkier and not with the same hight and build as Dick.


That's just it though. Can't speak for the others, but while I see Jason as the tallest of the BatFamily, I think Amazons should be taller than any Bat.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm not a fan of Jason being short. And especially when he is around the rest of the Batfamily I would like to seem him drawn taller and bulkier and not with the same hight and build as Dick.


"Shortie" among the Outlaws, nobody is comparing him with Dick about it.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'm not a fan of Jason being short. And especially when he is around the rest of the Batfamily I would like to seem him drawn taller and bulkier and not with the same hight and build as Dick.


Short in outlaws not batfam I meant.
I do prefer taller and bulkier Jason too but the sheer amount of "big bads" fanon stuff I see has taught me to be cautious about appreciating the extra height.

----------


## Aahz

> That's just it though. Can't speak for the others, but while I see Jason as the tallest of the BatFamily, I think Amazons should be taller than any Bat.


Appart from Grace Choi no Amazon is really extremely tall. And Diana, Donna and Cassandra Sandsmark all (according to the stats) shorter than their respective Batcounterpart and are never really drawn taller.

----------


## AJpyro

My brothers and sisters, we must do the super ultra dangerous ritual to keep Bendis away from RHatO.

----------


## G-Potion

As long as they keep Lobdell on RHATO, whatever else DC gives Jason I'd welcome it. I'll take that chance, even if it's Bendis.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Detective Comics this week what is probably my new favorite Jason moment.

----------


## Aioros22

At this point Tec is almost Jason`s roast a show. 

It helps that his digs are pure and genuine.

----------


## G-Potion

> At this point Tec is almost Jason`s roast a show. 
> 
> It helps that his digs are pure and genuine.


The most down-to-earth robin.

----------


## Assam

> The most down-to-earth robin.


With Tim and Steph how they are now, it's not even a contest.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> At this point Tec is almost Jason`s roast a show. 
> 
> It helps that his digs are pure and genuine.


That doesn't stop it for being one of the worst uses of Jason in recent memory.

Good quips doesn't make up for good characterization.

----------


## G-Potion

> That doesn't stop it for being one of the worst uses of Jason in recent memory.
> 
> Good quips doesn't make up for good characterization.


It doesn't. But it also doesn't butcher his character/make him unlikable either, unlike somebody. I've seen quite a few people saying that panel is the best thing about this issue, and this is a _Tim's_ show.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hardly an accomplishment when the bar is so low that it might as well be drawn on the floor.

----------


## kiwiliko

> It doesn't. But it also doesn't butcher his character/make him unlikable either, unlike somebody. I've seen quite a few people saying that panel is the best thing about this issue, and this is a _Tim's_ show.


Looking over on twitter, Tynion sounds so hyped up writing for Tim that I almost feel guilty the Jason Damian quip was probably my favorite moment too.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hardly an accomplishment when the bar is so low that it might as well be drawn on the floor.


Well a good thing is still a good thing.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looking over on twitter, Tynion sounds so hyped up writing for Tim that I almost feel guilty the Jason Damian quip was probably my favorite moment too.


Yeah I wonder if the comments I've seen are just from the minority and the mass actually love this Tim and are cheering for Tynion. As far as I see it, RHATO has been the only title that I feel like the team is taking notes of fan feedback as all the concerns I have, they are being alleviated one at a time.

----------


## kiwiliko

> With Tim and Steph how they are now, it's not even a contest.


Has Steph appeared yet? I swear just earlier today someone was saying they baited with Steph on the cover.

----------


## Assam

> Has Steph appeared yet? I swear just earlier today someone was saying they baited with Steph on the cover.


She wasn't in yesterday's issue but she was in the previous one and plenty of prior issues.

----------


## adrikito

> My brothers and sisters, we must do the super ultra dangerous ritual to keep Bendis away from RHatO.


I will participate in this ritual... Some books should be INTOUCHABLES..




> Has Steph appeared yet? I swear just earlier today someone was saying they baited with Steph on the cover.


I heard that she was only mentioned for Tomorrow Tim... In his future, he is obsessed with her.. She was under protection, hiding of him.. But seems that she returned to Gotham, maybe to face him, like his other enemies..

In one Tynion tweet he said that she will appear in two weeks, so, in the next issue.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> That doesn't stop it for being one of the worst uses of Jason in recent memory.
> 
> Good quips doesn't make up for good characterization.


It was good. Other people can do good things with Jason who aren't Lobdell

----------


## kiwiliko

> I will participate in this ritual... Some books should be INTOUCHABLES..
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that she was only mentioned for Tomorrow Tim... In his future, he is obsessed with her.. She was under protection, hiding of him.. But seems that she returned to Gotham, maybe to face him, like his other enemies..
> 
> In one Tynion tweet he said that she will appear in two weeks, so, in the next issue.


Yup, this is what I get for commenting up late. I thought Steph coming in would have a much bigger impact that I managed to forget she technically did appear. Going to hold out hope she's not going as nuts as the rest of the family.

Anyone know if Bendis mentioned he had a particular interest for what books? Maybe he doesn't have his eyes on the bat group.

----------


## Assam

I don't remember reading this, but I don't know how I could ever forget this face. 

jason's face.jpg

Also, did the recent issue of RHatO explain why the Hell Kate would hand over the Outlaws to Waller?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I don't remember reading this, but I don't know how I could ever forget this face. 
> 
> jason's face.jpg
> 
> Also, did the recent issue of RHatO explain why the Hell Kate would hand over the Outlaws to Waller?


I don't think so. This arc is long and kind of slow, but the I imagine the payoff will be amazing.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also, did the recent issue of RHatO explain why the Hell Kate would hand over the Outlaws to Waller?


No. But some of what Jason said kinda confirms that Kate and Co. don't know about Outlaws' true mission and Jason didn't like their attitude enough to bother explaining to them.

----------


## G-Potion

Don't know where this is from but awesome.

----------


## RedBird

> Don't know where this is from but awesome.


Nice  :Big Grin: 
Pretty sure this scene was from 'I Robot'. A moment in the  first 10 minutes when Will Smiths character needed a civilian to hold his pie.

I like the style here and the effort to place a cn logo. Maybe one day.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It was good. Other people can do good things with Jason who aren't Lobdell


Yeah, because blatantly ignoring how the Lazarus Pit to lazily have a "cool" moment and turn Jason into a generic quip spouting machine is so  _fantastic_ But hey, if you are satisfied with that.

I'll take characterizations that actually develop his character into a more rounded one every single time.

----------


## kiwiliko

Soy coming through with more Jason!

----------


## G-Potion

> Soy coming through with more Jason!


Looking good! And it does seem like he usually draws the hoodie thicker than how it is in the Jason/Artemis pic.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It does look like the same hoodie actually. Any differences on thickness are just the fact that was a sketch and this a finished piece.

----------


## EMarie

Has Soy ever drawn the hood up? The only time I remember seeing it up recently was in the Annual but Kirkham did that. Maybe the Arkham Knight stuff?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Has Soy ever drawn the hood up? The only time I remember seeing it up recently was in the Annual but Kirkham did that. Maybe the Arkham Knight stuff?


Yes, he drew Jason with the hood up on AK: Genesis

----------


## Alycat

> Yes, he drew Jason with the hood up on AK: Genesis


He was wearing it with his rippable pants too!

----------


## EMarie

I asked because it might make a better comparison to the Jason/Artemis image than a picture where he has it down.

----------


## Aioros22

Art Galore incoming in 3..2...

https://lady-yen-bug.tumblr.com/


Bam!

https://ayinggg.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

And now, the Little Wing section!

https://awizardspuffysleeves.tumblr.com/


http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/


http://laquilasse.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Gotham City Garage red Hood/Inkdaddy

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## adrikito

> art galore incoming in 3..2...
> 
> https://lady-yen-bug.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> bam!
> 
> https://ayinggg.tumblr.com/


red hood family..

----------


## Aioros22

There's another by the same artist of the former Outlaws but it had already been posted. Maybe after they make the cameo happen we can have all the family together  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

This cosplay! From https://twitter.com/JetsCosplay

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Yeah, because blatantly ignoring how the Lazarus Pit to lazily have a "cool" moment and turn Jason into a generic quip spouting machine is so  _fantastic_ But hey, if you are satisfied with that.
> 
> I'll take characterizations that actually develop his character into a more rounded one every single time.


The quips are fun. Jason has a good sense of humor under Tynion. But hey, if you want to get triggered when somebody does something fun with Jason who isn't Lobdell, go for it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

6f5ec64af8a0.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbSrBQOD...ken-by=gregp66
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbNh-z6j...ken-by=gregp66

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I asked because it might make a better comparison to the Jason/Artemis image than a picture where he has it down.


Up you mean, and here.




There's an undeniable similarity.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Up you mean, and here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's an undeniable similarity.


I like this pairing more than the Jason and Donna Troy one.

----------


## RedBird

She Would


She would what Soy???
They have been wearing these outfits for the past few issues but besides the hoodie being down its suspiciously close to that 'kiss' image. I still think that that was Soy having a little fun rather than content in a future issue, but then again, maybe Lobdell has changed his mind on these two, or has been further pressured by editorial.

----------


## RedBird

> https://lady-yen-bug.tumblr.com/


LOVE this piece! Very pretty, plus I do love when these bat characters are actually captured within THEIR city, you know?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> She Would
> 
> 
> She would what Soy???
> They have been wearing these outfits for the past few issues but besides the hoodie being down its suspiciously close to that 'kiss' image. I still think that that was Soy having a little fun rather than content in a future issue, but then again, maybe Lobdell has changed his mind on these two, or has been further pressured by editorial.


Well, it is a new editor...

----------


## Aioros22

They might be playing with it, that`s a nice way to grab some attention to preying eyes. 

Just FYI, the Injustice 2 Pack 3 has been revealed yesterday and I totally want The ShredderTM in the game trying to enlist Jason for the Foot clan.

----------


## Aioros22

> LOVE this piece! Very pretty, plus I do love when these bat characters are actually captured within THEIR city, you know?


And a good deal of the time, each one of them in their hood, so to speak  :Wink:

----------


## Aahz

> Just FYI, the Injustice 2 Pack 3 has been revealed yesterday and I totally want The ShredderTM in the game trying to enlist Jason for the Foot clan.


It is really a pity that only Damin will be in the next Batman Turtle Cross over. I really would like Jason to team up with Raph and Casey Jones.

----------


## G-Potion

> Art Galore incoming in 3..2...
> 
> https://lady-yen-bug.tumblr.com/


Fantastic art. I feel _inspireddddd_---




> https://ayinggg.tumblr.com/


Can never have enough Outlaws arts.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> They might be playing with it, that`s a nice way to grab some attention to preying eyes. 
> 
> Just FYI, the Injustice 2 Pack 3 has been revealed yesterday and I totally want The ShredderTM in the game trying to enlist Jason for the Foot clan.


NRS won. Seriously. Out of nowhere. They even played us with the "Mileena" Sai throw.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> It is really a pity that only Damin will be in the next Batman Turtle Cross over. I really would like Jason to team up with Raph and Casey Jones.


They`re doing likely to avoid the whole main four (you know what I mean Assam..) concept and similarities. At leats in the game we can now expect some lines between Raph and Jason  :Cool: 

Shredder should be in tho, he`s cooler than Batman and scarier than Manta.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

I see you also saw Max`s reaction video  :Wink: 

"Oh, Millena..? OooWhatThef**!!"

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> I see you also saw Max`s reaction video 
> 
> "Oh, Millena..? OooWhatThef**!!"


I didn't. He said that? Haha. I only thought so because Ed Boon was trolling with Mileena pic just the day before.

----------


## Aioros22

I totally missed that. I was completely in the dark about the whole pack until my bro sent it to me this morning. 

His reaction brings home that kid in you singing along the TMNT theme  :Wink:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They`re doing likely to avoid the whole main four (you know what I mean Assam..) concept and similarities. At leats in the game we can now expect some lines between Raph and Jason 
> 
> Shredder should be in tho, he`s cooler than Batman and scarier than Manta.


Is being written by Tynion so I'm perfectly fine with Jason not being there.

----------


## Rise

> Soy coming through with more Jason!


Soy has managed to create a unique look for Jason that's worthy of praise.

----------


## Rise

> Is being written by Tynion so I'm perfectly fine with Jason not being there.


No one is forcing you to read it, Dark. If you absolutely hate how Jason being written outside of his book (which you obviously does), then simply spare yourself the "pain" and don't bother.

----------


## EMarie

> Up you mean, and here.
> 
> There's an undeniable similarity.


I meant Jason has the hood down in the recent picture Soy has posted and we needed to see it up. Thanks for the image.




> She Would
> 
> 
> She would what Soy???
> They have been wearing these outfits for the past few issues but besides the hoodie being down its suspiciously close to that 'kiss' image. I still think that that was Soy having a little fun rather than content in a future issue, but then again, maybe Lobdell has changed his mind on these two, or has been further pressured by editorial.


Has any of Soy's captions had anything to do with the content? "She would" could mean anything from telling someone off to punching Batman in the face.

Sometimes characters have standard causal wear. Even in the Annual their clothes were close to this except for Artemis wearing a pink tank. I mean you could make a case for Lobdell or Soy teasing this already if you wanted to. So far it seems to be open to interpretation.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not my fault the current Batman writers have zero idea on hiw handling Jason. Unfortunately since RHATO is part of the Batman offices now that will be the norm from now on. At least Superman editors actually cared when Jason showed up on other books.

Soy's captions have been teases for future issues.

----------


## EMarie

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the way a lot of writers handle Jason either.

Thanks, I wasn't sure about the captions.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not my fault the current Batman writers have zero idea on hiw handling Jason. Unfortunately since RHATO is part of the Batman offices now that will be the norm from now on. At least Superman editors actually cared when Jason showed up on other books.
> 
> Soy's captions have been teases for future issues.


How sure is it that RHATO is in Bat office now?

----------


## Rise

> Not my fault the current Batman writers have zero idea on hiw handling Jason. Unfortunately since RHATO is part of the Batman offices now that will be the norm from now on. At least Superman editors actually cared when Jason showed up on other books.
> 
> Soy's captions have been teases for future issues.


They have zero idea on how to handle the robins in general and they didn't cause Jason any harm to worth being this bothered by them.

And Superman editors cared in what way exactly? Even when Jason appeared along Dick and Barbara in Batman/Superman, he got defined by one trait like Dick got. 

Also, what some of you even want? You complain when Jason get included and you complain when he isn't, you complain when his book got dragged into crossover and you complain when it's not. You want a deep take on Jason? This rarely ever happen  with any guest star appearing in any book.

----------


## G-Potion

If you mean Greg Pak, he's one of the better Jason writers out there. That Batman/Superman issue still wrote Jason with respect.

Regarding your last point, I think what "we" want is not self-contradictory as you say. Crossovers/Guesting with the Super offices are generally preferred because they have proven to treat Jason better, whereas with the Bat events so far, if Jason is not in, he is not considered to be Bruce's son or family. If he is in, he gets the middle child treatment at best. So the complaints basically amount to the same thing, wanting him to be treated as important as his brothers. Also I think it's possible to want a certain dose of family gathering for the character, when it makes sense to do so. It's not an either-or situation.

----------


## Rise

I have read his appearances by "super office" and their characterization of him isn't that different from the "bat office". The only difference is that he didn't appear with a lot of characters like he does in the Batman events so he got much more foucs which make it easy for the writers to show him up well.

And when the heck Jason wasn't considered a family except in Tomasi's BR when Jason's status with the family wasn't clear yet? He wasn't treated as a son? All the robins haven't been treated like they were Bruce's sons except Damian who is only getting a lip service. 

You guys major problem is that you obsessed with comparing Jason to the other Robins that you can't seem to see that they aren't treated much better.

----------


## kiwiliko

Counterpoint: If we're talking about how the office treats robins in general, I can probably say Damian and Dick get the better deals for sure compared to the supposed middle kids. The current Batman run is milking the big brother little brother as much as possible and just looking at how many books both Grayson and Damian appear in is a pretty good idea they're going to be the main go to if there's any need to reference or have a robin related appearance. Not to mention despite being part of the family or having a robin run, it's the girls that get the shortest end of the stick.

If you're talking about writing quality then yeh, everyone gets a short stick at some point.

----------


## G-Potion

> And when the heck Jason wasn't considered a family except in Tomasi's BR when Jason's status with the family wasn't clear yet? He wasn't treated as a son? All the robins haven't been treated like they were Bruce's sons except Damian who is only getting a lip service. 
> 
> You guys major problem is that you obsessed with comparing Jason to the other Robins that you can't seem to see that they aren't treated much better.


I never said Jason wasn't treated as a son _in family events_. I said he's _not_ in certain events sometimes because he's not considered as Bruce son in an equal way Dick and Damian are. Recently, you can see it with Metal (where I think Jason should be involved just because of Bruce) and also Batman#35 spoilers from the Damian thread. On the other hand, when he is actually in an event, he and Tim are relegated to side-missions. Yes, the writing quality is fair game, but in term of plot importance as well as family status, the bias is there.

That said, no, I'm not obsessed or feeling emotional about any of this. It is just my observation. Doesn't mean I can't be chill.

----------


## yohyoi

> *You guys major problem is that you obsessed with comparing Jason to the other Robins that you can't seem to see that they aren't treated much better.*


Please stop, they are already dead! LOL, but yeah Robin comparisons gets old.

----------


## Rise

Jason didn't got involved in GR because his writer wasn't involved in the event (which I'm glad that RHATO didn't get dragged into crossover). I just read the spoilers and what I'm supposed to get from it? King is a Dick fanboy who enjoy his dynamic with Damian. It's up to his preference and his entitled to write the relationship he likes. 

It wasn't because "DC" or "Bat office" hold the writers by their ears and told them to only write Dick and Damian. It's just their writers were involved in events and it's natural to have bias towards the characters you are in charge of.

----------


## Aahz

> You guys major problem is that you obsessed with comparing Jason to the other Robins that you can't seem to see that they aren't treated much better.


He is the only Robin, who sofar didn't got a central role in any bigger event or storyline.

And in the bigger events he is often written as the family idiot/punching ball.

At least I would like for a change to be excited about Jason appearing in an other Bat-Book.

----------


## kiwiliko

> It wasn't because "DC" or "Bat office" hold the writers by their ears and told them to only write Dick and Damian. It's just their writers were involved in events and it's natural to have bias towards the characters you are in charge of.


Except that's my point. I'm not calling it wrong that they have preferences, I'm just calling it wrong to say they're all being treated equally as bad when they get different amounts of advertising and exposure.

----------


## Rise

Which Robin that got to play a major role in a big event? All the bat events were all about Batman and the only time when Dick got to play a central role was in RW which didn't do him any favours. Unless you actually counting LC as them playing a major role or the OZ thing? Because Dick and Damian were only plot devices where the later got so much hate for his role and Tim hardly got any importance over Oz's plot since it was all about Superman. 

I don't think Jason was written as an "idiot", they just tend to write him as the one who cracks jokes. It's not great, but I at least getting good laugh from his jokes which makes the rather boring batfamily gatherings actually fun.

----------


## Rise

> Except that's my point. I'm not calling it wrong that they have preferences, I'm just calling it wrong to say they're all being treated equally as bad when they get different amounts of advertising and exposure.


Not every exposure is a good one.

Dick has been treated as a punching bag for the batfamily and Damian's appearances only end up making people hates him more since the writers tend to make him more of a jerk or have himvact like 8 years old kid who suddnly needs his "daddy" (or how he is "doomed" to be a bad guy in the future). The DCAU isn't doing them any favours either.

Also, Dick has been there for so long that he literally got a lot of butchering and inconsistenty through his history that more than once DC was close to get rid of him.

----------


## Aioros22

> I have read his appearances by "super office" and their characterization of him isn't that different from the "bat office". The only difference is that he didn't appear with a lot of characters like he does in the Batman events so he got much more foucs which make it easy for the writers to show him up well.
> 
> And when the heck Jason wasn't considered a family except in Tomasi's BR when Jason's status with the family wasn't clear yet? He wasn't treated as a son? All the robins haven't been treated like they were Bruce's sons except Damian who is only getting a lip service. 
> 
> You guys major problem is that you obsessed with comparing Jason to the other Robins that you can't seem to see that they aren't treated much better.


He was fleshed out in those guest appearances but you also atribute that as not having the room filled with other bats. He got to be played more and showcase more stuff whereas in Tec he cracks jokes and little else. Mind you I don`t see that as a sign of, for instance, Tynion lacking respect towards the character but more like his secondary characters having extremely limited roles. His Nigthwing and Damian aren`t anything to write home about either but I can`t say I don`t enjoy the quips, as little as it is. 

King`s scene with the dog is the only actual sequence where I can tell a writer is going out of his way to poke at a fanbase, whereas in the previous diner scene, Jason was treated the same as the other boys. 

Equally dispensable.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason didn't got involved in GR because his writer wasn't involved in the event (which I'm glad that RHATO didn't get dragged into crossover). I just read the spoilers and what I'm supposed to get from it? King is a Dick fanboy who enjoy his dynamic with Damian. It's up to his preference and his entitled to write the relationship he likes.


By having Jason make such a fuss about the wedding (when he shouldn't) and then nowhere else to be seen, then in #35 depicting the "end credit" scene where the family of four members go home together, King inadvertently drives home the idea who are really important. I don't think I'm stretching this, seeing as people in Damian thread also feel the same.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Not every exposure is a good one.
> 
> Dick has been treated as a punching bag for the batfamily and Damian's appearances only end up making people hates him more since the writers tend to make him more of a jerk or have himvact like 8 years old kid who suddnly needs his "daddy" (or how he is "doomed" to be a bad guy in the future). The DCAU isn't doing them any favours either.
> 
> Also, Dick has been there for so long that he literally got a lot of butchering and inconsistenty through his history that more than once DC was close to get rid of him.


To be honest it looks like to me Damian has actually been getting a bigger and bigger fanbase. I don't see the whole kill happy Damian or 8 year child as good portrayals either but I've also seen a good deal of people who enjoy Damian because inconsistency means he's got multiple different versions out at the same time and many will find one that works for their own preference. Might not be good exposure in our eyes but I do think there's merit to why people say any attention is good attention in any kind of largely published creation.

Dick's had butcherings too but I feel like they do weird things for his character? Devin's new addition of playboy Grayson and the whole Romani blood thing despite being added for pretty bad reasons, eventually turned into Dick somehow being a symbol for Romani representation and the whole sexy superhero icon. He has butcherings but they don't seem to stick onto him as much as I might expect a badly written issue might stick onto someone like Jason or Damian.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not every exposure is a good one.
> 
> Dick has been treated as a punching bag for the batfamily and Damian's appearances only end up making people hates him more since the writers tend to make him more of a jerk or have himvact like 8 years old kid who suddnly needs his "daddy" (or how he is "doomed" to be a bad guy in the future). The DCAU isn't doing them any favours either.
> 
> Also, Dick has been there for so long that he literally got a lot of butchering and inconsistenty through his history that more than once DC was close to get rid of him.


I agree that some exposure turn fans against Dick and Damian. But that's talking about writing quality. It doesn't change the fact that the intention has always been to have the spotlight on these two, be it from the writers or DC.

----------


## Rise

Damian got more spotlight because he is the current Robin and Batman's "son". Dick got more spotlight because he has major fanboys in the industry.

Jason has been dead for almost 20 years and has only been written consistently in the recent years. Not many grow up with him or has attachment to him, but he still managed to do far much better than many of DC characters who existed far longer than him and now are either just supporting characters or simply not around. He only appeared as DLC for a game and end up being the most trending Robin this year in Google, he is doing pretty fine. 

I don't mind or hate his appearances because I care more for how he has been written in his book. When people get interested in him, they are going to search for his book and not his two pages appearances which why I think it's absolutely ridiculous how his appearances bother some of you so much when some characters aren't even lucky enough to be written well in their own book.

----------


## G-Potion

> Damian got more spotlight because he is the current Robin and Batman's "son". Dick got more spotlight because he has major fanboys in the industry.


And that's what I've been saying. Sometimes, some writers take it to mean the others are not his sons. And no one at DC is correcting it either.




> Jason has been dead for almost 20 years and has only been written consistently in the recent years. Not many grow up with him or has attachment to him, but he still managed to do far much better than many of DC characters who existed far longer than him and now are either just supporting characters or simply not around. He only appeared as DLC for a game and end up being the most trending Robin this year in Google, he is doing pretty fine.


True. And that's without even a nudge from DC so the complaints are still valid.




> I don't mind or hate his appearances because I cares more for how he has been written in his book. When people get interested in him, they are going to search for his book and not his two pages appearances which I think it's absolutely ridiculous how his appearances so much when some characters aren't even lucky enough to be written in their own book.


You don't have to be emotionally invested to point out whether portrayal sucks or not though. I'm fine with Tynion's Jason recently, except for the bone spur which is just beyond dumb. I think King's Jason is crap which is why I'd prefer he doesn't write the character.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They have zero idea on how to handle the robins in general and they didn't cause Jason any harm to worth being this bothered by them.
> 
> And Superman editors cared in what way exactly? Even when Jason appeared along Dick and Barbara in Batman/Superman, he got defined by one trait like Dick got. 
> 
> Also, what some of you even want? You complain when Jason get included and you complain when he isn't, you complain when his book got dragged into crossover and you complain when it's not. You want a deep take on Jason? This rarely ever happen  with any guest star appearing in any book.


It does cause harm because that are the appearances that are more present on the public's eye and have little to do with how his character it actually is. And yes, that does include his appearance in Injustice. For most people not really familiar with the comics Jason is still the edgy Robin that is only present to make "scalding" quips, act like though guy and with a chip on his shoulder. When Jason is so much more.

The appearance you mention it did have Jason being present with emphasis on a single aspect of his character yes, but it was consistent with the way he was written on RH/A at the time and the little chat he had with Superbro at the end showed a greater comprehension of his character that any other Batman writer has shown.




> He was fleshed out in those guest appearances but you also atribute that as not having the room filled with other bats. He got to be played more and showcase more stuff whereas in Tec he cracks jokes and little else. *Mind you I don`t see that as a sign of, for instance, Tynion lacking respect towards the character but more like his secondary characters having extremely limited roles.* His Nigthwing and Damian aren`t anything to write home about either but I can`t say I don`t enjoy the quips, as little as it is. 
> 
> King`s scene with the dog is the only actual sequence where I can tell a writer is going out of his way to poke at a fanbase, whereas in the previous diner scene, Jason was treated the same as the other boys. 
> 
> Equally dispensable.


Thing is, at this point Tynion has been writing comics professionally for years, has gone on record to say that "Jason is one of his favorite characters ever" and every time he tries writing him it shows his understanding of his character is shallow. To not mention that he actually wrote Jason exclusively for more than a year and not only tanked his book, it didn't improved his understanding at all.

----------


## Rise

@G: True that DC isn't doing much and nothing wrong with asking for more. I do think the fact he still managed to get popular without DC doing much him say a lot about the appeal of his character and sometimes DC focusing on a character isn't necessary a good thing.

Why the writers have only been pushing Damian as the "son"? That's because of Jon and the writers trying to put Batman and Superman in equal ground by having only one son.

It's ok to not like certain take from a writer (I don't actually like King's take either. It just doesn't bother me since I find his run unintentionally hilarious), but I just wish that you guys spend more time discussing his book instead of wasted too many pages on some Jason's guest appearance that lasted for three pages top. It's ridiculous and one of the reasons why I left this forum.

@Dark: think whatever you want. I'm not discussing this further.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's ok to not like certain take from a writer (I don't actually like King's take either. It just doesn't bother me since I find his run unintentionally hilarious), but I just wish that you guys spend more time discussing his book instead of wasted too many pages on some Jason's guest appearance that lasted for three pages top. It's ridiculous and one of the reasons why I left this forum.


I think we discuss the book plenty? They are just usually in the RHATO threads and those can go five to ten pages easily.

Yeah... this thread would be much more positive if RHATO is discussed here....  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rise

We do? Because I don't see any discussion in the current RHATO thread. It's just "good issue" and "looking forward to the next!!" Or the complaining about Batwoman. It's nothing compared to how much you discusse his appearances. 

Five to ten pages easily? Come on now, I have been in this forum for over a year and this rarely happen.

----------


## G-Potion

> We do? Because I don't see any discussion in the current RHATO thread. It's just "good issue" and "looking forward to the next!!" Or the complaining about Batwoman. It's nothing compared to how much you discusse his appearances. 
> 
> Five to ten pages easily? Come on now, I have been in this forum for over a year and this rarely happen.


Thats how many pages the usual RHATO threads have yeah? And its natural that you have more responses when there are opposing opinions around.

----------


## Rise

I was talking about this thread, but I decided to check RHATO threads and most of them are just 4 or 5 pages and the rare occasions when we have more.

There's a lot of topics about RHATO that hardly been discussed. Like who is the mysterious guy? What's Bizarro up to? Are we going to see Willis? Is creeper going to join the team for real and does this mean the outlaws is going to be expanded? (That's actually pretty major news since it will be the first time ever Jason get to be a part of a big team) What's your favourite arc so far? Which character you like to guest appearance in this book? What plot you like to see be explored in the future? And so many other things that we can talk about in this thread.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thing is, at this point Tynion has been writing comics professionally for years, has gone on record to say that "Jason is one of his favorite characters ever" and every time he tries writing him it shows his understanding of his character is shallow. To not mention that he actually wrote Jason exclusively for more than a year and not only tanked his book, it didn't improved his understanding at all.


That`s a writting flaw no doubt, I don`t think he`s insincere one bit about the love he shouts out for his favorites, I just think he`s a limited writer whose best work so far is a crossover with another property. 

Like you say, he tends to be sort of surfasce level in characterization (example aka: battle feats) but that`s the common complain across the board in his title. Ask how many Tim fans in this Forum at least consider that Future Tim a deep character. I wouldn`t hold my breath. But hey, Jason fought 100 mystical assassins, what a badass. 

In Tynion`s case, I at least do, separate the fan from the writer. He`s honest about the medeum na characters he loves but needs to continually grow as a writer.

King is the opposite. He`s genuially a good writer with a good understanding of narrative and panel layout but spends time poking expendable visual jokes because. I`m all for someone who defies fanbase expectations and entitlement but do it with flair, with panace, with subtitely with actual fun. King heavy hands it. 

Do it like Morrison. Diss it with style.

----------


## Aioros22

> I was talking about this thread, but I decided to check RHATO threads and most of them are just 4 or 5 pages and the rare occasions when we have more.
> 
> There's a lot of topics about RHATO that hardly been discussed. Like who is the mysterious guy? What's Bizarro up to? Are we going to see Willis? Is creeper going to join the team for real and does this mean the outlaws is going to be expanded? (That's actually pretty major news since it will be the first time ever Jason get to be a part of a big team) What's your favourite arc so far? Which character you like to guest appearance in this book? What plot you like to see be explored in the future? And so many other things that we can talk about in this thread.


Those have been discussed and continue to to. The last RATHO Thread is a good deal about how Bizarro is tingling Jason`s alert signal for the first time. I mean, look, we should discuss everything that pertains the character. The good, the bad and what would be better. 

Like, you can`t discuss more about Wills than you have when you haven`t have a single new clue being dropped since the new arc started.

----------


## Aioros22

And unless Loedbell works wonders with Creeper and in a new light, I`m not sold on any prospect of him joining the team, much rather Crux made a comeback. Creeper being a tryout seems to follow the whole Joker Daugther`s asthetic tho.

----------


## Rise

> Those have been discussed and continue to to


Sure whatever you say because the last ten pages of this thread are so going to prove your point, but continue having a long and repeated discussion about King and Tynion.

And who said that's RHATO only has "good"? It has good, bad and what would be better. There's some areas that I would actually like Lobdell to improve on. 




> The last RATHO Thread is a good deal about how Bizarro is tingling Jason`s alert signal for the first time


This thread is still in the first page and anyone can easily tell how this isn't true.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Sure whatever you say because the last ten pages of this thread are so going to prove your point, but continue having a long and repeated discussion about King and Tynion.
> 
> And who said that's RHATO only has "good"? It has good, bad and what would be better. There's some areas that I would actually like Lobdell to improve on. 
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is still in the first page and anyone can easily tell how this isn't true.


The key to have long and productive discussions is to engage on other's opinions but when few do or people outright states they won't engage with other's opinions, it becomes an exercise in futility. That said, if the discussion skews towards the merits of other writers that is simply because is the only topic people are willing to engage.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I was talking about this thread, but I decided to check RHATO threads and most of them are just 4 or 5 pages and the rare occasions when we have more.
> 
> There's a lot of topics about RHATO that hardly been discussed. Like who is the mysterious guy? What's Bizarro up to? Are we going to see Willis? Is creeper going to join the team for real and does this mean the outlaws is going to be expanded? (That's actually pretty major news since it will be the first time ever Jason get to be a part of a big team) What's your favourite arc so far? Which character you like to guest appearance in this book? What plot you like to see be explored in the future? And so many other things that we can talk about in this thread.


I always thought it was some kind of forum etiquette not split a topic into two places but yeah, more Rhato discussion here would be appreciated. 
I am curious to some of your opinions on Artemis and Bizarro as well. We're covering a lot of ground with Bizarro and Jason this arc but I realize the original intention for this group to be made of misfits might be more accurate than Lobdell expected. Artemis has clearly went against Wonder woman in the past and has quite a history with Bana Mighdall. Have we considered how long she's probably lived up to this point when she could easily have decades or centuries on her two teammates. It's three people all with huge gaping differences between their life experiences, it's interesting to see them get along as a team.

----------


## Aioros22

> Sure whatever you say because the last ten pages of this thread are so going to prove your point, but continue having a long and repeated discussion about King and Tynion.


Uh huh. I don`t have to use any last 10 pages. It`s a Thread nearing 600 pages where every sort of opinion about what has been done to the character in several media outlets or can happen as of yet has been touched upon. If it hasen`t, well, that`s what the coming pages are for everytime something new comes in.




> This thread is still in the first page and anyone can easily tell how this isn't true.


Neither this or this last issue Thread and "still in the first page". 

*I* made one of the posts in this month`s issue Thread in responde to Dark and someone else regarding Bizarro and your reply is..well most of the pages was just positive intel. Okay,  

You`re clearly getting frustated or down with Dark`s opinions regarding some writers or even most writers outside Lodbell or Winnick working on Jason and I even get that, I`ve been there. But the moment you realize you`re a fan like him and you _actively_ participate in the debate, it`s a simple matter of realizing it`s also on you to not let that or any other thing a poster does here, bug you. 

It`s opinions, we all have them and we all defend them, no matter if you`re all wrong and I`m right  :Wink: 

Thank you for reading.

----------


## Aioros22

> I always thought it was some kind of forum etiquette not split a topic into two places but yeah, more Rhato discussion here would be appreciated. 
> I am curious to some of your opinions on Artemis and Bizarro as well. We're covering a lot of ground with Bizarro and Jason this arc but I realize the original intention for this group to be made of misfits might be more accurate than Lobdell expected. Artemis has clearly went against Wonder woman in the past and has quite a history with Bana Mighdall. Have we considered how long she's probably lived up to this point when she could easily have decades or centuries on her two teammates. It's three people all with huge gaping differences between their life experiences, it's interesting to see them get along as a team.


She`s clearly the mature voice and acts like Jason is every bit a child as Bizarro who is barely a month old, comic time. Before she meets Jason she has been actively detached herself from every meaningfull humane connection after what she felt as having been her own betrayal to a former ally and lover. 

I`m not even sure Rebirth has made clear whereas Diana is centuries old like in the movie or not so is hard to discern the same for Artemis.

----------


## Rise

> I always thought it was some kind of forum etiquette not split a topic into two places but yeah, more Rhato discussion here would be appreciated. 
> I am curious to some of your opinions on Artemis and Bizarro as well. We're covering a lot of ground with Bizarro and Jason this arc but I realize the original intention for this group to be made of misfits might be more accurate than Lobdell expected. Artemis has clearly went against Wonder woman in the past and has quite a history with Bana Mighdall. Have we considered how long she's probably lived up to this point when she could easily have decades or centuries on her two teammates. It's three people all with huge gaping differences between their life experiences, it's interesting to see them get along as a team.


I like her attitude and brutal honesty. Lobdell has done better job with her than most and she has a great chemistry with Jason. Her past with Diana isn't something I care much about and I'm more curious about what she has been doing all these years besides searching for the bow. 

I don't like how she has a sudden change of heart regarding Bizarro. She suddenly went from thinking of him as a monster to him being one of her precious people without it being properly developed.

Bizarro has been the highlight in this run. I like his childlike innocent that brighten the book in its darkest moments and genius Bizarro has provided the team with a lot of assets that going to help them big time in the future. I'm little worried about the pay off with his currunt arc and I think Jason total trust in him is unusual.

----------


## Aahz

> Which Robin that got to play a major role in a big event? All the bat events were all about Batman and the only time when Dick got to play a central role was in RW which didn't do him any favours. Unless you actually counting LC as them playing a major role or the OZ thing? Because Dick and Damian were only plot devices where the later got so much hate for his role and Tim hardly got any importance over Oz's plot since it was all about Superman.


Dick had B&RE, Robin War, Titans  Hunt, and Gotham Resistance (you could maybe also count Night of the Monster Man). On top of it he got some "left overs" from previous events (Court of Owls, Spyral) for his solo.

Damian had Robin War, Lazarus Contract and is now in the Shadow and Turtle cross overs.

Tim had Lonely Day of Living.

This may not be the biggest events, but it were still quite big storylines that get a lot of attention. 


And thats not even limited to the Robins, Duke, Harper, most of the Gotham Knights (TEC has now basically one event after the next), Catwoman had all at least one major role in a storyline in Batman, TEC or in an Event Series.

----------


## magpieM

> I was talking about this thread, but I decided to check RHATO threads and most of them are just 4 or 5 pages and the rare occasions when we have more.
> 
> There's a lot of topics about RHATO that hardly been discussed. Like who is the mysterious guy? What's Bizarro up to? Are we going to see Willis? Is creeper going to join the team for real and does this mean the outlaws is going to be expanded? (That's actually pretty major news since it will be the first time ever Jason get to be a part of a big team) What's your favourite arc so far? Which character you like to guest appearance in this book? What plot you like to see be explored in the future? And so many other things that we can talk about in this thread.


I think the discussions in RHATO thread will be continued. Not everyone can read the comic book right after it came out. Sometimes when I get busy, it may take a while (or even a month) for me to find a proper time, when I'm alone and having good mood, to enjoy reading the book of the character I care the most. And before I read it, the best thing I can do is not to check the RHATO thread (and sometimes even this thread) to avoid any spoiler.

And speaking of the mysterious guy, Willis and his letter: We do want to know the truth behind them, don't we? There have been a lot of discussions in this thread, every now and then. Their clues rarely appeared in this monthly book. Even so, we grabbed anything we could to interpret all the possibilities. Just need to be patient before the final revealing... I'll be mad if those mysteries remain unsolved in the end.

----------


## TheCape

@Rise
I had onlu been paying attention to this thread for a month or so, in the almost 100 pages that i had checked, i see quite some considerable time talking about the some of what is next for Jason, pretty much since the annual, the speculation of Willis being back had arise a lot more (i'm not sure if they were there before),.i agreed that fans can exagerate, but some of their concerns had a point. 

@Aazh
Tec is basically the dumping ground for all the 90s characthers that DC keeps around because they are popular, but don't know what to do with then, yeah they have exposure, but sadly most of then has a big risk of dissapear forever, because sadly they are the less importants of Batman story, Jason got Death on the Family and UTRH, that pretty much guarantee his place in the mythos, granted this create the risk of having UTRH on repeat or him being back to villany, but rigth now is minimal.

----------


## EMarie

> I like her attitude and brutal honesty. Lobdell has done better job with her than most and she has a great chemistry with Jason. Her past with Diana isn't something I care much about and I'm more curious about what she has been doing all these years besides searching for the bow. 
> 
> I don't like how she has a sudden change of heart regarding Bizarro. She suddenly went from thinking of him as a monster to him being one of her precious people without it being properly developed.
> 
> Bizarro has been the highlight in this run. I like his childlike innocent that brighten the book in its darkest moments and genius Bizarro has provided the team with a lot of assets that going to help them big time in the future. I'm little worried about the pay off with his currunt arc and I think Jason total trust in him is unusual.


I've read Artemis in some WW books before this and this has much more depth than she's usually given. As Jason and technically Bizarro have family I think at some point her connection to the WW family should be explored. The problem is that all of them seem to be having origin struggles at the moment. I'm not sure how old Artemis is supposed to be but the Bana-Mighdall didn't have immortality until Circe started messing with them in old canon since theirs was taken away once they renounced their gods and started worshipping Egyptian gods.

I took it for Artemis finally seeing the innocence Jason saw and admiring him for being himself. She cares for Bizarro but I don't think she fully lost her suspicions of him.

Why is his total trust in Bizarro unusual? Jason has had blind spots in the past. From the extreme of ignoring warning signs from Joker's Daughter to not even seeming fazed by Shelia Haywood's actions. Jason has shown pride in Bizarro's growth and already questioned having to put him down. Maybe he doesn't want to be disappointed in someone again or worse have to question killing Bizarro again.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Tynion isn't the worst when it comes to Jason. He adds some fun banter with him and the other Robins.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Why is his total trust in Bizarro unusual? Jason has had blind spots in the past. From the extreme of ignoring warning signs from Joker's Daughter to not even seeming fazed by Shelia Haywood's actions. Jason has shown pride in Bizarro's growth and already questioned having to put him down. Maybe he doesn't want to be disappointed in someone again or worse have to question killing Bizarro again.


Thinking back to when they were questioning if Bizarro had to be put down, I realize if Bizarro has the same powerset as Superman, he can't have not realized Jason prepped a kryptonite gun right behind him with his kind of hearing. Not to mention he's a guy with superstrength who could've just as easily overpowered Jason if he really wanted to live badly but now it hurts more knowing he let Jason make that call anyways.

----------


## Aahz

> @Aazh
> Tec is basically the dumping ground for all the 90s characthers that DC keeps around because they are popular, but don't know what to do with then, yeah they have exposure, but sadly most of then has a big risk of dissapear forever, because sadly they are the less importants of Batman story, Jason got Death on the Family and UTRH, that pretty much guarantee his place in the mythos, granted this create the risk of having UTRH on repeat or him being back to villany, but rigth now is minimal.


TEC is pretty big, it sells currently better than stuff like Superman and Justice League.

And even if Jason will stay part of the Mythos, he imo still needs some positive exposure to keep him sucessfull and improve his image. His current appearance (and non-appearances) in the Bat-Books are imo doing the opposite. They seem on the one side to push for Dick and Damian to be the only true Robins and to hammer down this Jason was never as good as Dick non sense. And if he actually does something cool it is almost always devalued in some way or over shadowed by something that happens later in the story.

----------


## G-Potion

What do you guys think about moving future RHATO preview/discussion into this thread? Sometimes I'm not sure where to post a thing because of the overlaping topics between the two threads.

----------


## RedBird

> What do you guys think about moving future RHATO preview/discussion into this thread? Sometimes I'm not sure where to post a thing because of the overlaping topics between the two threads.


I never thought it mattered really, as long as a topic is at least relatively related to Jason for the namesake of the thread no matter what it is, (with a few short lived tagents here and there), then of course it can be discussed, including rhato. I especially like having my initual reactions in the rhato preview threads and then more long term thoughts or theories in the Jason thread. I wasnt even under the impression that people had been avoiding 'rhato talk' here.

----------


## Aioros22

> TEC is pretty big, it sells currently better than stuff like Superman and Justice League.
> 
> And even if Jason will stay part of the Mythos, he imo still needs some positive exposure to keep him sucessfull and improve his image. His current appearance (and non-appearances) in the Bat-Books are imo doing the opposite. They seem on the one side to push for Dick and Damian to be the only true Robins and to hammer down this Jason was never as good as Dick non sense. And if he actually does something cool it is almost always devalued in some way or over shadowed by something that happens later in the story.


What you`re describing doesn`t happen in Tec since Tynion is likely more fond on Jason than Dick or Damian. Just look at the way he wrote Dick as simply leaving after having the prize whereas the others stayed and fought.

----------


## Aioros22

> I never thought it mattered really, as long as a topic is at least relatively related to Jason for the namesake of the thread no matter what it is, (with a few short lived tagents here and there), then of course it can be discussed, including rhato. I especially like having my initual reactions in the rhato preview threads and then more long term thoughts or theories in the Jason thread. I wasnt even under the impression that people had been avoiding 'rhato talk' here.


Hear hear. I don`t see what the deal is about, you can talk in either one. 

Anyone notice how outside Batman and Tec almost no other bat title reaches something like 10 pages on a preview/discussion thread? Why is that suddently a mindblow? Que sera, sera.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What do you guys think about moving future RHATO preview/discussion into this thread? Sometimes I'm not sure where to post a thing because of the overlaping topics between the two threads.


Bad idea.

The point of having specific threads for each issue is to allow focused discussion on the events of said issue and to allow casual readers to easily share their thoughts on it without feeling the need to read through 10 pages or more to see if their thoughts are shared by someone else or have been discussed  already.

General character threads also tend to hop around topics very often and thus usually tend to be frequented by regular users that care by all aspects of the character instead of just his/her current series.

If anything, having different topics allows for more variety of opinions since users who rarely(if at all) post on the character thread, actually post on the issue threads.

Anyways, team Detective failed to make a significant improvement on the sales for past issue with issue 15 failing to make it to the top 100.

----------


## Rise

> I've read Artemis in some WW books before this and this has much more depth than she's usually given. As Jason and technically Bizarro have family I think at some point her connection to the WW family should be explored. The problem is that all of them seem to be having origin struggles at the moment. I'm not sure how old Artemis is supposed to be but the Bana-Mighdall didn't have immortality until Circe started messing with them in old canon since theirs was taken away once they renounced their gods and started worshipping Egyptian gods.
> 
> I took it for Artemis finally seeing the innocence Jason saw and admiring him for being himself. She cares for Bizarro but I don't think she fully lost her suspicions of him.
> 
> Why is his total trust in Bizarro unusual? Jason has had blind spots in the past. From the extreme of ignoring warning signs from Joker's Daughter to not even seeming fazed by Shelia Haywood's actions. Jason has shown pride in Bizarro's growth and already questioned having to put him down. Maybe he doesn't want to be disappointed in someone again or worse have to question killing Bizarro again.


She didn't simply started to care about him, he just suddenly become one of the three people she cares about most. It was pretty random and lazy from Lobdell to be honest.

Because Jason isn't a naive fool. He didn't declare his complete trust in JD and was pretty aware that she was shady. He just wanted to be wrong and tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but quickly confronted her after his suspicion about her was confirmed. 

His situation with his mother is a different matter and had a big impact on him in way that he shouldn't at all trust easily any person like he is strangely doing with Bizarro. He declared once that Roy is the one person he trust the most in the world, but it was never a blind one that we got one of the best sence in comics ever when he asked Roy if he was drinking again. It was just simple and great scene that showed the deep trust between them without making one of them look like a fool.

----------


## Aioros22

I`m going to re-read the whole book up to this point but you really see Artemis trusting Jason too fast? 

I recall it was more that he kept surprising her at every turn and after he goes out of his way to Qurac to help her despite his past, that`s where he fully earns it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is exactly what happened, yeah. Jason became so important for Artemis due all the effort he put on helping her on Qurac and against Akila. Something that no one had ever done for her before.

If anything, it can be argued that Artemis attachment to Bizarro is where Lobdell got lazy since it happened off panel and the way it was revealed made it look like an afterthought.

----------


## Rise

> I`m going to re-read the whole book up to this point but you really see Artemis trusting Jason too fast? 
> 
> I recall it was more that he kept surprising her at every turn and after he goes out of his way to Qurac to help her despite his past, that`s where he fully earns it.


Artemis? I was talking about Jason blind trust in Bizarro. 

Unless you mean my first sentence which was about Atremis sudden change of heart regarding Bizarro.

----------


## SpentShrimp

To be fair, you also have to consider the huge amount of tie-in issues coming out for METAL.

----------


## R0NIN

Been out of the Red Hood and the Outlaws loop for a bit...has he pulled out swords or the all blades anytime recently or is his just strictly guns now?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Been out of the Red Hood and the Outlaws loop for a bit...has he pulled out swords or the all blades anytime recently or is his just strictly guns now?


He used them again on issue 11

----------


## R0NIN

> He used them again on issue 11


Thank you much appreciated.

----------


## G-Potion

@Aioros, Redbird and Dark: All very good points!  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Because Jason isn't a naive fool. He didn't declare his complete trust in JD and was pretty aware that she was shady. He just wanted to be wrong and tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but quickly confronted her after his suspicion about her was confirmed.


This is how I feel as well. I can get Jason turning a blind eye but not completely unaware of a thing.

----------


## G-Potion

On a different matter, since Jason has been stating how he promised Batman not to kill... much. I wonder how long until he's in a situation where he has to. This promise can only be referecend so many times before it becomes stale, and I'd like a taste of what sets Red Hood apart from the fam again. See where he stands at the moment.

----------


## Tony Stark

> On a different matter, since Jason has been stating how he promised Batman not to kill... much. I wonder how long until he's in a situation where he has to. This promise can only be referecend so many times before it becomes stale, and I'd like a taste of what sets Red Hood apart from the fam again. See where he stands at the moment.


Good point. Same here.

----------


## Assam

> Anyways, team Detective failed to make a significant improvement on the sales for past issue with issue 15 failing to make it to the top 100.


We'll see if there was _any_ kind of increase once the numbers are out, but in general, I'm not surprised. When it comes to the more niche books, even appearances from A-listers such as the Trinity don't help sales. 




> On a different matter, since Jason has been stating how he promised Batman not to kill... much. I wonder how long until he's in a situation where he has to. This promise can only be referecend so many times before it becomes stale, and I'd like a taste of what sets Red Hood apart from the fam again. See where he stands at the moment.


Not saying I support this, but on a scale from "Willing to see how this plays" to "NOTMUHJASON! :Mad: ", how would you guys feel if rather than this leading to him needing to kill in an instance, it led to him not doing it any more at all?

----------


## G-Potion

> Not saying I support this, but on a scale from "Willing to see how this plays" to "NOTMUHJASON!", how would you feel if rather than this leading to him needing to kill in an instance, it led to him not doing it any more at all?


I don't think his moral stance was hinted to have changed at all to justify not doing it anymore. And I think it would do more harm than good in the long run to be honest. Unless by doing so, you have something just as strong to replace "representing an argument to Batman's method" as a summary to the character. So... a 9, on the "NOTMUHJASON! :Mad: " side.

----------


## Aahz

> We'll see if there was _any_ kind of increase once the numbers are out, but in general, I'm not surprised. When it comes to the more niche books, even appearances from A-listers such as the Trinity don't help sales.


The team members who appeared aren't really the big draws imo. Would be interesting if the current issue will sell better (putting Harley Quinn on the cover can actually increase sales ...).

And would anyway wait for the absolute numbers, with Metal and Legacy it wouldn't be surprising if he got pushed out of the top 100 without a big decline in sales.

----------


## G-Potion

> The team members who appeared aren't really the big draws imo. Would be interesting if the current issue will sell better (putting Harley Quinn on the cover can actually increase sales ...).
> 
> And would anyway wait for the absolute numbers, with Metal and Legacy it wouldn't be surprising if he got pushed out of the top 100 without a big decline in sales.


I haven't been looking at sales numbers. How does the decline slope look like so far?

----------


## Assam

> I don't think his moral stance was hinted to have changed at all to justify not doing it anymore. And I think it would do more harm than good in the long run to be honest. Unless by doing so, you have something just as strong to replace "representing an argument to Batman's method" as a summary to the character. So... a 9, on the "NOTMUHJASON!" side.


Fair enough. Although I wonder how necessary that summary is. The Rebirth run hasn't really played with the idea that much (or if it has, its been so subtle I didn't really notice on my single read throughs) but they've been easily the best comics Jason has had since the 80s. 




> The team members who appeared aren't really the big draws imo. Would be interesting if the current issue will sell better (putting Harley Quinn on the cover can actually increase sales ...).


As I said, it doesn't really matter how much of a draw a character has in these cases. Batman couldn't help Blue Beetle's deservedly awful sales, Superman couldn't help New Super-Man's tragically low sales, etc. If a book primarily only caters to a specific audience, then it doesn't matter much whose on the cover. 

Not to mention, in this case, the two characters with easily the largest fanbases on the team in that issue, Cass and Kate, have fanbases that are decidedly anti-Lobdell from what I've seen. 




> I haven't been looking at sales numbers. How does the decline slope look like so far?


Its been losing about 1,000 readers a month since the Summer. It was at around 24,000 in September.

----------


## Aahz

> I haven't been looking at sales numbers. How does the decline slope look like so far?


In the last month RHatO sold usually something arround 25K.

Btw. does somebody know why Supergirl sells suddenly that good. It used to be one of the lower selling books (below Batgirl) and now it is above Super Sons.

----------


## G-Potion

> Fair enough. Although I wonder how necessary that summary is. The Rebirth run hasn't really played with the idea that much (or if it has, its been so subtle I didn't really notice on my single read throughs) but they've been easily the best comics Jason has had since the 80s.


It's fine for now, yes. But I still think this kind of summary helps cement the place for a character in the bigger picture. Eventually, one's gonna ask, what is the point of this character? This helps them stay around even when the book is not well written, nor is it touching the kind of themes the character is about.

----------


## Assam

> Btw. does somebody know why Supergirl sells suddenly that good. It used to be one of the lower selling books (below Batgirl) and now it is above Super Sons.


Variant covers.

----------


## Aahz

> Not to mention, in this case, the two characters with easily the largest fanbases on the team in that issue, Cass and Kate, have fanbases that are decidedly anti-Lobdell from what I've seen.


I mean at least based on the solits it seemed anyway quite clear that Kate will be the character who gets a bigger role, and her book sells currently less than RHatO.

And like you said, guest appearances are usually not a big draw, if it had been a cross over story, that might have been different.

I think that it are usually more story lines that feel somehow big or important that bring in readers, than just character appearences. I mean even "Trinity" as pretty low sales (at least if you consider that it stars the Trinity) and I think that is mostly because hardly anything that happens in that book is really important for the respective franchises.

----------


## G-Potion

@Assam and Aahz: Thanks for the info!  :Smile:

----------


## kiwiliko

> In the last month RHatO sold usually something arround 25K.
> 
> Btw. does somebody know why Supergirl sells suddenly that good. It used to be one of the lower selling books (below Batgirl) and now it is above Super Sons.


Could it be the new season of Supergirl tv series? It was coming out 2017 october, I've got a friend pretty excited for it and now into exploring other supergirl merch because of it.

----------


## G-Potion

There's an article on this: http://comicboxcommentary.blogspot.s...es-review.html

This also supports what Aahz said about the story impact on the DCU will strongly push sales. A thing that RHATO is lacking at the moment.

----------


## Assam

> I mean at least based on the solits it seemed anyway quite clear that Kate will be the character who gets a bigger role, and her book sells currently less than RHatO.
> 
> And like you said, guest appearances are usually not a big draw, if it had been a cross over story, that might have been different.
> 
> I think that it are usually more story lines that feel somehow big or important that bring in readers, than just character appearences. I mean even "Trinity" as pretty low sales (at least if you consider that it stars the Trinity) and I think that is mostly because hardly anything that happens in that book is really important for the respective franchises.


You're not wrong. Just look at a Lonely Place of Living. 'Tec's sales went up by about 4,000 between Utopia and that story. While I'm sure there were some Tim fans coming back to the book who had left, the majority were likely there for the Oz connections.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not to mention, in this case, the two characters with easily the largest fanbases on the team in that issue, Cass and Kate, have fanbases that are decidedly anti-Lobdell from what I've seen.


I wonder why. Has Lobdell done anything to these character prior to the Tec' guest apperances?

----------


## magpieM

> On a different matter, since Jason has been stating how he promised Batman not to kill... much. I wonder how long until he's in a situation where he has to. This promise can only be referecend so many times before it becomes stale, and I'd like a taste of what sets Red Hood apart from the fam again. See where he stands at the moment.


Part of his reason for not killing was to set up an example for Bizarro. I remember it was before Bizarro became genius? It was a practical move at that time because Bizarro knew too little about the world. It's safer to set up a line for Bizarro not to abuse his power.

But now they are teaming up with suicide squad far away from Gotham. I don't think ss members would like to pull their punches, nor does Jason have any control over them. I'm curious how Jason would react when ss start killing in front of the outlaws.

Or maybe Lobdell is going to avoid that situation with some convenient reasons during the crossover.

----------


## Assam

> I wonder why. Has Lobdell done anything to these character prior to the Tec' guest apperances?


I know for a fact he's never written Cass before and I don't think he's done anything to upset Kate's fanbase directly. However, there's the matter of overlapping fanbases and his reputation preceding him. Lobdell spent a good few years unarguably pissing all over the YJ4 (Who have many overlapping fans with Cass) and (for reasons I don't understand) _arguably_  pissing all over Roy and Kory, the former having overlap with Cass and the later having overlap with both. Not to mention the huge controversy centered around Kory when RHatO started. Toss in his acts of sexual harassment (Which, while we don't know how truthful he was, he at least_has_ owned up to it and apologized) and it doesn't exactly have him sit well with a lot of people. I'm still not a fan of Lobdell myself (Roy and the YJ4 being some of my favorite characters and all) and I'm still fairly sure the current run is only as good as it is because of the editor.

----------


## SpentShrimp

My guess for why RHatO is losing so many readers a month is:

A) All the events going on right now.

B) Jason is known for having a more permanent solution to crime, but all we've seen so far is Jason saying, "I'm the Bat Family member who is willing to kill, but I made a 16 ISSUE promise to Batman that I wouldn't."

----------


## Assam

> My guess for why RHatO is losing so many readers a month is:
> 
> A) All the events going on right now.
> 
> B) Jason is known for having a more permanent solution to crime, but all we've seen so far is Jason saying, "I'm the Bat Family member who is willing to kill, but I made a 16 ISSUE promise to Batman that I wouldn't."


I don't think there's any special reason for it. It's just what happens. Titles bleed out readers until their numbers stabilize. It's just that some titles (Ones with more popular characters and brands) stabilize at higher numbers. And some titles stabilize faster than others, boiling down to the core fanbase.  Look at all of the lower selling Bat titles (which is all of them except for Batman, 'Tec and Nightwing) and the only one which has stabilized is Batgirl, having stayed around 22,000 for a few months now. (At the lowest numbers an ongoing Batgirl title has ever seen, but regardless) Batman Beyond and BoP still continue to lose tons of readers as well, as does Batwoman, which, despite having half as many issues as the rest of these books, is already selling less than all but BoP. 

The fact is that ComicJason's fanbase _is_ niche. Look back to Red Hood/Arsenal's sales and they were at 17,000 by issue 10.The quality of the book is what allows it to be even as high as it is now.

----------


## Kalethas31

Jason needs new teammates

----------


## Assam

> Jason needs new teammates


I disagree but that _does_ raise a good point. 

With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together.  Sooner or later this book _is_ gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around.  And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I don't think there's any special reason for it. It's just what happens. Titles bleed out readers until their numbers stabilize. It's just that some titles (Ones with more popular characters and brands) stabilize at higher numbers. And some titles stabilize faster than others, boiling down to the core fanbase.  Look at all of the lower selling Bat titles (which is all of them except for Batman, 'Tec and Nightwing) and the only one which has stabilized is Batgirl, having stayed around 22,000 for a few months now. (At the lowest numbers an ongoing Batgirl title has ever seen, but regardless) Batman Beyond and BoP still continue to lose tons of readers as well, as does Batwoman, which, despite having half as many issues as the rest of these books, is already selling less than all but BoP. 
> 
> The fact is that ComicJason's fanbase _is_ niche. Look back to Red Hood/Arsenal's sales and they were at 17,000 by issue 10.The quality of the book is what allows it to be even as high as it is now.


I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more. With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I disagree but that _does_ raise a good point. 
> 
> With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together.  Sooner or later this book _is_ gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around.  And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.


There was nothing toxic about the previous Outlaws and anyonewho thinks that has never properly read the previous series.




> I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more. With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.


Appearances in other media rarely translate  as an increase in comic book sales. Just look at Marvel, despite Star-Lord and Winter Soldier having prominent roles on the MCU they struggle to keep a book.

----------


## Assam

> I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more.* With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.*


It really is just that simple though. 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to sales. If it did, Green Arrow wouldn't be in the 25,000 range, Harley and Wonder Woman would be closer to Batman's sales, Jaime Reyes wouldn't be on his third volume in a row to sell awfully and Supergirl wouldn't need Artgerm variant covers in order to not sell like crap.

----------


## Assam

> There was nothing toxic about the previous Outlaws and anyonewho thinks that has never properly read the previous series.


I always admit that I haven't read past the first storyline. The impression I've gotten from reading what you guys say was that Jason left Roy because he felt he was a bad influence on him. If that's false, I'd be interested to learn what I misunderstood.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I disagree but that _does_ raise a good point. 
> 
> With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together.  Sooner or later this book _is_ gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around.  And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.


The same could be said for many other books too however. I enjoy Nightwing as a character but watching him go through romance after romance in his own book and rehashing previous girlfriends already says to me this is Nightwing's version of a repeating formula. After Nightwing ends, where really are they going to take Dick that isn't just introducing new villains or a new girlfriend. Dick himself as a character hasn't gone through as much change despite having twice as many issues out by now. Ultimately it's up to whatever the next writer decides they want the characters to go and the joy of it is we never know when someones going to hit a good new beat. I do personally think there's still more to go with Jason that won't make it hard to leave the teammates theme behind because he's certainly got quite a few internal conflicts ongoing that aren't going to be fixed or addressed through this single rhato run. 

Also out of curiosity because that wasn't the vibe I got from the Roy Kory run, what part was pointed out as toxic? I get the theme of their trio had dysfunctional misfits in it but toxic usually implies heavier or abusive elements at least to me.

----------


## Assam

> The same could be said for many other books too however. I enjoy Nightwing as a character but watching him go through romance after romance in his own book and rehashing previous girlfriends already says to me this is Nightwing's version of a repeating formula. After Nightwing ends, where really are they going to take Dick that isn't just introducing new villains or a new girlfriend. Dick himself as a character hasn't gone through as much change despite having twice as many issues out by now. Ultimately it's up to whatever the next writer decides they want the characters to go and the joy of it is we never know when someones going to hit a good new beat. I do personally think there's still more to go with Jason that won't make it hard to leave the teammates theme behind because he's certainly got quite a few internal conflicts ongoing that aren't going to be fixed or addressed through this single rhato run.


It's definitely a problem for plenty of characters, and as a fan, I don't want Jay to fall into this trap. Again, there is room for something different to explore with the Outlaws, but a new team would still be risky IMO. Additionally, would anyone besides Lobdell (Who won't write Jason forever) want to do it/ do it well? And of course there's the fact that if RHatO were to eventually get canned for low sales, DC's reaction probably wouldn't be to just relaunch RHatO or a solo Red Hood title (Which with proper writing, I do think could definitely work). And _that's_ why I find this more interesting than other cases. Jason has spent over a decade either as a villain and/or antagonist or as part of a team that's very much _his_; there are no Outlaws without Jason. Without either of those, what would happen to him then? 




> Also out of curiosity because that wasn't the vibe I got from the Roy Kory run, what part was pointed out as toxic? I get the theme of their trio had dysfunctional misfits in it but toxic usually implies heavier or abusive elements at least to me.


As I said above, I was just basing what I said off what I've read in this thread and am happy to be corrected.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> It really is just that simple though. 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to sales. If it did, Green Arrow wouldn't be in the 25,000 range, Harley and Wonder Woman would be closer to Batman's sales, Jaime Reyes wouldn't be on his third volume in a row to sell awfully and Supergirl wouldn't need Artgerm variant covers in order to not sell like crap.





> Appearances in other media rarely translate  as an increase in comic book sales. Just look at Marvel, despite Star-Lord and Winter Soldier having prominent roles on the MCU they struggle to keep a book.


You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.

----------


## Godlike13

This was the third Red Hood book launched with Lobdell and its falling to where the others fell to. But since this is the 3rd go with Lobdell, they are probably ok with that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.


And we go back to the issue we've discussed plenty already. The book needs to have actual exposure from editorial. Get its creative team at cons, make ads for it, make it part of panels and announcements.

----------


## G-Potion

> You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.


I don't know if you have seen it, but the lack of promotion for this particular title given its quality is astounding enough that there was an article about it. A book shoudn't struggle alone trying to gain more readership. Where's editorial support in this?

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason needs new teammates


Why is it?

----------


## G-Potion

> I disagree but that _does_ raise a good point. 
> 
> With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together.  Sooner or later this book _is_ gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around.  And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.


As others have said, I don't think it's true what you said about toxicity. But I had that same idea about a group who hate each other but are forced to stick together the moment I saw that fanart of Red Hood/Deathstroke and one other guy I forgot his name. Imagine a situation where Jason has to work with mercenary/killers and at the same time has to sabotage their effort in killing _every_ mark they come across. Or a group where they have to work together for the time being, but with a clear understanding that at the end, it will be them fighting each other.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> And we go back to the issue we've discussed plenty already. The book needs to have actual exposure from editorial. Get its creative team at cons, make ads for it, make it part of panels and announcements.


I can agree with that. I do think there are still improvements that can be made, but it is one of the most consistent titles from Rebirth.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I don't know if you have seen it, but the lack of promotion for this particular title given its quality is astounding enough that there was an article about it. A book shoudn't struggle alone trying to gain more readership. Where's editorial support in this?


I agree with that. I do enjoy the current run of the series, but there are some things that can improve.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I don't know if you have seen it, but the lack of promotion for this particular title given its quality is astounding enough that there was an article about it. A book shoudn't struggle alone trying to gain more readership. Where's editorial support in this?


Any chance you still have that link to the article? 
I found it weird as well. I went browsing around the internet looking for recommendations for 2016 series and by faaaar the most mentioned ones even last year were already Rhato, Deathstroke and Supersons rebirth. There's about no advertisement and if it weren't for for the fact comics reddit rooted so strongly for these I would not have realized rhato existed. 

I personally guess it's either a combination that Lobdell had a bad reputation coming before this run or that the fact that Jasons movie had such an oppositely expected reaction. He's one of the few stances that can challenge Bruce's ideals and come out making Batman's stance look bad which if I were an editor, I'd probably also say is a no-go for heavier advertising.

----------


## G-Potion

> Any chance you still have that link to the article? 
> I found it weird as well. I went browsing around the internet looking for recommendations for 2016 series and by faaaar the most mentioned ones even last year were already Rhato, Deathstroke and Supersons rebirth. There's about no advertisement and if it weren't for for the fact comics reddit rooted so strongly for these I would not have realized rhato existed. 
> 
> I personally guess it's either a combination that Lobdell had a bad reputation coming before this run or that the fact that Jasons movie had such an oppositely expected reaction. He's one of the few stances that can challenge Bruce's ideals and come out making Batman's stance look bad which if I were an editor, I'd probably also say is a no-go for heavier advertising.


Not only reddit. I read the thread about dropped/planning to drop books in the DC section here and very few listed RHATO while people were more vocal about Supersons and Deathstroke.

Yes I have a feeling DC is very hesitant when it comes to Jason exactly because of how he challenges Batman. His success was never planned and even now while they don't want to _not_ capitalize on it, they also don't want it to succeed _that much_.

Oh, and that article I talked about**: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...cond-printing/

----------


## SpentShrimp

As much as don't like how Morrison wrote Jason, he did kind of expose how Jason challenges Batman with his "Let the Punishment Fit the Crime" campaign. That could tarnish Batman in a way.

----------


## Godlike13

Probably not gonna get Lobdell on any panels right now.

----------


## Aahz

> You're not wrong. Just look at a Lonely Place of Living. 'Tec's sales went up by about 4,000 between Utopia and that story. While I'm sure there were some Tim fans coming back to the book who had left, the majority were likely there for the Oz connections.


Lonely Place of Living was of course a quite big storyline due to the return of Tim and the rebirth connection, but I think that the current TEC gets in general a sales boost from feeling more important for the Batfranchise due to the larger scale of the stories (Rebirth TEC is more a successor to the Eternals than to pre-rebirth TEC).

If it would feel as disconnected to the rest of the franchise as Trinity or Birds of Prey (or less important like pre-rebirth TEC) it would probably sell less.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Not only reddit. I read the thread about dropped/planning to drop books in the DC section here and very few listed RHATO while people were more vocal about Supersons and Deathstroke.
> 
> Yes I have a feeling DC is very hesitant when it comes to Jason exactly because of how he challenges Batman. His success was never planned and even now while they don't want to _not_ capitalize on it, they also don't want it to succeed _that much_.
> 
> Oh, and that article I talked about**: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07...cond-printing/


Dude in those threads CBR 3 dropped RHATO and 6 dropped Supersons  and 1 person dropped Deathstroke 
Reddit yeah some dropped Deathstroke but I don't see how these figures/information translates into @deserves heavier advertising. 
The fact that the Character got a major reference in BvS contradicts the 2nd part of your post since as far as advertising and promoting goes it does get much bigger than that.

----------


## Rise

RHATO isn't losing too many readers every month. It's lose few hundreds which better than some of the books that lose around 1k and more every month.

The book isn't doing much better because a) DC isn't bothering themselves to promote it b) many of Red Hood fans want solo and refuse to give this book a chance and c) Lobdell doesn't have a good reputation that encourage people to try it.

Still, the first vol of RHATO did so well and has been reordered for months.




> On a different matter, since Jason has been stating how he promised Batman not to kill... much. I wonder how long until he's in a situation where he has to. This promise can only be referecend so many times before it becomes stale, and I'd like a taste of what sets Red Hood apart from the fam again. See where he stands at the moment.


I don't like when people say that killing what set Jason apart like he is a weak character that has nothing going for him except killing which isn't true (I know that you didn't mean it that way, G).

They aren't going to let him kill any big names anyway, but what Lobdell needs to do is give him a dangerous aura about him. Makes him someone who is upredicatable that inspires fear in criminals with his ruthlessness and willingness to cross the line unlike others. 

There are also other things that I want Lobdell to fix that he has been doing with Jason since Bizarro arc started. 

1) Him losing control of the situation and being naive

I don't mind Bizarro taking lead in this arc, but I don't like how Jason has lost control of the situation and being completely unaware of what's going on. In RH/A, he let Roy drag him from one bizarre situation to another, but he let it happen because he knows that there was a reason behind Roy's actions and that something was bothering him (he was also still in charge and called him out when things got too crazy). Jason has strong presence and personality that he was even able to make _Artemis_ follow his lead _"Yeah, yeah you are badass and all, but listen"_ and when he took control of the situation quickly once he came back to his senses after living his nightmare that he didn't even notice that he has being tortured in issue 10.

2) Jason become too chatty and emotional

Jason think a lot, but he doesn't talk a lot or show his emotions easily to others. I don't like how he lost it when Lex called Bizarro a "thing" compared to how he kept his cool when Ollie spoke badly of Kory and he made it known to him that he won't let him speak about her like that without getting emotional (before anyone go "that because Bizarro was dying!", Roy was also dying in that situation and Kory was missing) or how he acted around Waller when you can simply show that he didn't like her or her actions without Jason expressing to her through words. Jason is much more calmer and mature than people gives him credits for and rarely ever let others know when something upset him like when he didn't show to Roy that was kinda sad that Bruce might be dead after the endgame event.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dude in those threads CBR 3 dropped RHATO and 6 dropped Supersons  and 1 person dropped Deathstroke 
> Reddit yeah some dropped Deathstroke but I don't see how these figures/information translates into @deserves heavier advertising. 
> The fact that the Character got a major reference in BvS contradicts the 2nd part of your post since as far as advertising and promoting goes it does get much bigger than that.


Sorry if I got it wrong. At the time I read it, only Assam put it in his potential dropped list. And I didn't say these threads translate into deserving adveritising. I said on the post prior it deserves advertising given the quality, a thing that apparenly Bleeding Cool gave voice to.

And we all know that promotion from other medias does almost nothing to comic sales so no, it doesnt contradict anything I say. And I will see if anything follows the BvS reference. By itself its not really promotion in my opinion because Jason's name wasn't mentioned officially, not until much later.

----------


## RedBird

> Sorry if I got it wrong. At the time I read it, only Assam put it in his potential dropped list. And I didn't say these threads translate into deserving adveritising. I said on the post prior it deserves advertising given the quality, a thing that apparenly Bleeding Cool gave voice to.
> 
> And we all know that promotion from other medias does almost nothing to comic sales so no, it doesnt contradict anything I say. And I will see if anything follows the BvS reference. By itself its not really promotion in my opinion because *Jason's name wasn't mentioned officially, not until much later*.


Much later? Was Jasons name ever officially mentioned? We all know Robin died but I don't remember any name dropping, besides a tour guide accidentally mentioning the suit of 'Jason Todd'.

----------


## G-Potion

> Much later? Was Jasons name ever officially mentioned? We all know Robin died but I don't remember any name dropping, besides a tour guide accidentally mentioning the suit of 'Jason Todd'.


Sorry I used the word broadly because I was too lazy to fact check. It's just like you said. Not sure how "official" its considered to be.

----------


## Aahz

I doubt that a tour guide as any official information about what is going on in the DCU.

And I'm not even convinced that they had really fixed who the dead Robin was when they made BvS.

----------


## Assam

> Lonely Place of Living was of course a quite big storyline due to the return of Tim and the rebirth connection, but I think that the current TEC gets in general a sales boost from feeling more important for the Batfranchise due to the larger scale of the stories (Rebirth TEC is more a successor to the Eternals than to pre-rebirth TEC).
> 
> If it would feel as disconnected to the rest of the franchise as Trinity or Birds of Prey (or less important like pre-rebirth TEC) it would probably sell less.


What you're saying is that the book's gimmick is working. At the end of the day, yeah,overall  Batman himself is obviously the main selling point for anything, but if you think the book does better than it would otherwise because of its scale and feeling of importance, look no further than the team for the reason. The massive cast and the history/nostalgia that's being drawn upon from them is what creates that feeling. I don't think these stories would have the same feeling at all if converted into Bruce-solo stories. In fact, they'd be horribly generic. Still, I can't imagine it'd sell _too_ much lower. Pre-Rebirth 'Tec only sold about 10,000 less than current 'Tec IIRC.

----------


## CPSparkles

I don't think you need a say with something so iconic however remember all the buzz and articles that are still ongoing till today about that scene. They all said his name When i saw the scene I thought Jason. 
I mean we know Bruce has been shown to have other suits in glass cases but only one is worthy it's own scene in a Bat movie

----------


## Aahz

> What you're saying is that the book's gimmick is working. At the end of the day, yeah,overall  Batman himself is obviously the main selling point for anything, but if you think the book does better than it would otherwise because of its scale and feeling of importance, look no further than the team for the reason. The massive cast and the history/nostalgia that's being drawn upon from them is what creates that feeling. I don't think these stories would have the same feeling at all if converted into Bruce-solo stories. In fact, they'd be horribly generic. Still, I can't imagine it'd sell _too_ much lower. Pre-Rebirth 'Tec only sold about 10,000 less than current 'Tec IIRC.


The massive cast helps of course to make it feel epic, but the cast alone is imo not enough to make it feel epic. And without that feeling I don't think that it would sell 10K more than pre-rebirth (and thats imo quite a lot).

And I think that RhatO could have better sales, when the writers would have put more efford in making Jason feel like a important member of the Batfamily in the cross overs, and not wrote him as a secondary character.

----------


## TheCape

> The book isn't doing much better because a) DC isn't bothering themselves to promote it b) many of Red Hood fans want solo and refuse to give this book a chance and c) Lobdell doesn't have a good reputation that encourage people to try it.


Is so weird that Jason is the only Robin that never got a solo series (i mean he is the main characther in the current run, but his relationships with the other 2 members are the core of Lodbells runs).

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think you need a say with something so iconic however remember all the buzz and articles that are still ongoing till today about that scene. They all said his name When i saw the scene I thought Jason. 
> I mean we know Bruce has been shown to have other suits in glass cases but only one is worthy it's own scene in a Bat movie


And that scene alone helps sell his book more than actually advertising his book how? Even if it's officially Jason, it's just a confirmation of his existence, they are not selling anything with it. If you mean recognition outside of comics, then the Arkham Games and Injustice already did a better job on it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I doubt that a tour guide as any official information about what is going on in the DCU.
> 
> And I'm not even convinced that they had really fixed who the dead Robin was when they made BvS.


The guy who made the tour was part of the production team or something.  

C`mon now, are we seriously now debating who the dead Robin in BvS verse _is_?

----------


## Aioros22

> This was the third Red Hood book launched with Lobdell and its falling to where the others fell to. But since this is the 3rd go with Lobdell, they are probably ok with that.


If you`re using Loedbell then let`s take in account that his numbers in the first Volume were good and Tynion was the one who brought it down. RRAA was never a permanent status quo we all knew it. 

Again, this book barely gets any promotions in cons or DC ads or panels, despite having people asking for him. It`s not a great seller but bleeds little all the same.

----------


## G-Potion

> They aren't going to let him kill any big names anyway, but what Lobdell needs to do is give him a dangerous aura about him. Makes him someone who is upredicatable that inspires fear in criminals with his ruthlessness and willingness to cross the line unlike others.


He doesn't need to kill any big names really. The type that he detests are those that harm women and children. Let him punish them.




> There are also other things that I want Lobdell to fix that he has been doing with Jason since Bizarro arc started. 
> 
> 1) Him losing control of the situation and being naive
> 
> I don't mind Bizarro taking lead in this arc, but I don't like how Jason has lost control of the situation and being completely unaware of what's going on. In RH/A, he let Roy drag him from one bizarre situation to another, but he let it happen because he knows that there was a reason behind Roy's actions and that something was bothering him (he was also still in charge and called him out when things got too crazy). Jason has strong presence and personality that he was even able to make _Artemis_ follow his lead _"Yeah, yeah you are badass and all, but listen"_ and when he took control of the situation quickly once he came back to his senses after living his nightmare that he didn't even notice that he has being tortured in issue 10.


I agree with this.




> 2) Jason become too chatty and emotional
> 
> Jason think a lot, but he doesn't talk a lot or show his emotions easily to others. I don't like how he lost it when Lex called Bizarro a "thing" compared to how he kept his cool when Ollie spoke badly of Kory and he made it known to him that he won't let him speak about her like that without getting emotional (before anyone go "that because Bizarro was dying!", Roy was also dying in that situation and Kory was missing) or how he acted around Waller when you can simply show that he didn't like her or her actions without Jason expressing to her through words. Jason is much more calmer and mature than people gives him credits for and rarely ever let others know when something upset him like when he didn't show to Roy that was kinda sad that Bruce might be dead after the endgame event.


I won't say that this change doesn't make sense. Jason has become quite vulnerable since Rebirth plus how he thinks of his teammates as _family_ now, he opens up a lot more. But I do miss the stoicism and still think that Lobdell had the best Jason voice back when he did the first volume of N52's RHATO. It has the sharpness that reminds me of Winnick.

----------


## G-Potion

> The guy who made the tour was part of the production team or something.  
> 
> C`mon now, are we seriously now debating who the dead Robin in BvS verse _is_?


I don't think we are. It's just whether or not it counts as promotion for the character, especially when the identity of Robin wasn't even officially revealed.

----------


## Aioros22

> Artemis? I was talking about Jason blind trust in Bizarro. 
> 
> Unless you mean my first sentence which was about Atremis sudden change of heart regarding Bizarro.


Ah okay, I though you were talking about Artemis warming up to Jason as sudden. As far as Bizarro is concerned I agree since it`s mostly off panel but then again he was indeed a child who kept pushing his health to sacrífice for her and Jay. You gotta be rock hearted not to warm up to someone like that.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G 

That reminded me





I can agree that the iconic suit in display is Jason automatically to whoever follows Batman in most visual media (comics and games) but as far as casuals, it wouldn`t ring a bell yet aside from being Robin if there`s no name atached to it. They`re saving it for a movie appearance since there`s no way they will never show what happened between Bruce, Harley and Joker. Two direct references in the two movies with Batfleck are a dead ring-o that they`re setting it up (how well it will remain to be seen). 

I haven`t looked at these in their boxes so no idea if there is a name reference, I`m just assuming that Tour was a slip on the part of the guy.

----------


## Rise

> He doesn't need to kill any big names really. The type that he detests are those that harm women and children. Let him punish them.


Because this going to make him look bad when he go around killing small time criminals, but leave the big ones who committed far worse crimes.

Like I said before, just make him a dangerous guy who you definitely don't want to cross parth with and shows that he is willing to cross the line (him trying to keep his promise with Batman doesn't make much sense after what he said in issue 13).




> I won't say that this change doesn't make sense. Jason has become quite vulnerable since Rebirth plus how he thinks of his teammates as _family_ now, he opens up a lot more. But I do miss the stoicism and still think that Lobdell had the best Jason voice back when he did the first volume of N52's RHATO. It has the sharpness that reminds me of Winnick.


Why he is vulnerable in Rebirth? I would imagine that he would be in far worse mental state in N52 than in Rebirth considering it was set after UTRH and him going crazy.

----------


## Rise

> Ah okay, I though you were talking about Artemis warming up to Jason as sudden. As far as Bizarro is concerned I agree since it`s mostly off panel but then again he was indeed a child who kept pushing his health to sacrífice for her and Jay. You gotta be rock hearted not to warm up to someone like that.


I don't have problem with her warming up to him, but I have a problem with him becoming suddenly a someone who is too precious to her.

----------


## Aioros22

True, particularly because it was off panel, I can agree.

----------


## G-Potion

> Because this going to make him look bad when he go around killing small time criminals, but leave the big ones who committed far worse crimes.
> 
> Like I said before, just make him a dangerous guy who you definitely don't want to cross parth with and shows that he is willing to cross the line (him trying to keep his promise with Batman doesn't make much sense after what he said in issue 13).


But then how do you keep showing his willingness if he isn't shown crossing the line ever? And I don't think it makes him look bad because we all know the big names can't be offed, and it's also true that Jason's brand of justice is subjective and emotional.





> Why he is vulnerable in Rebirth? I would imagine that he would be in far worse mental state in N52 than in Rebirth considering it was set after UTRH and him going crazy.


I think the events in RH/A affected him in a big way. Enough that he was willing to work under Batman's rule, to earn a father's love so to speak. Words from Black Mask but I also think of it as a meta commentary on Jason's state of mind. He left Roy out of selflessness and it opens the need to have someone to be close to.

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G 
> 
> That reminded me


It's definitely Jason. I can just _feel_ the disapproval from that mask.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

That`s an interesting point, how do you convey different ethics without unecessary killing? I think there`s ways. 

Take over criminal enterprises and use the assets, break some bones, take down some dictator without any say from the UN or Justice League, take down currupt politicians or cops and hustle their assets, go for the kill to superpowered characters because those are dime a dozen and when your or someone innocent`s life is on the line you do it because it`s the line you cross. 

Not much different than what he was. I don`t see that promise as cheating his identity, he`s working to better himself until he does what he has to. It`s a way to feel less enraged with everything. 

There`s a bit of the "Driver" in him as far as that concept goes.

----------


## Aioros22

Anyhow, whether he kills or not - or better yet, whether he doesn`t kill unecessarily or not - is not the bane of different ethics, to me. I think shooting the Joker and leave him paralyzed or throw him into an electrical fence can be every bit of lethal force as a bullet to the head. 

And we all know the later won`t ever happen unless they make a Joker in the Lazarus thing (at least when you do it credit me Snyder).

----------


## G-Potion

> That`s an interesting point, how do you convey different ethics without unecessary killing? I think there`s ways. 
> 
> Take over criminal enterprises and use the assets, break some bones, take down some dictator without any say from the UN or Justice League, take down currupt politicians or cops and hustle their assets, go for the kill to superpowered characters because those are dime a dozen and when your or someone innocent`s life is on the line you do it because it`s the line you cross. 
> 
> Not much different than what he was. I don`t see that promise as cheating his identity, he`s working to better himself until he does what he has to. It`s a way to feel less enraged with everything. 
> 
> There`s a bit of the "Driver" in him as far as that concept goes.


Yes some of these we've been seeing in Rebirth and more in the N52. He doesn't have to take out known big names. Just create someone for him to take out.

I wish there's more of crime lord Jason. The duplicity in this setting would highlight his role much more.

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyhow, whether he kills or not - or better yet, whether he doesn`t kill unecessarily or not - is not the bane of different ethics, to me. I think shooting the Joker and leave him paralyzed or throw him into an electrical fence can be every bit of lethal force as a bullet to the head. 
> 
> And we all know the later won`t ever happen unless they make a Joker in the Lazarus thing (at least when you do it credit me Snyder).


And that's why I consider him not saving Black Mask staying true to his ethics.

----------


## Rise

> But then how do you keep showing his willingness if he isn't shown crossing the line ever? And I don't think it makes him look bad because we all know the big names can't be offed, and it's also true that Jason's brand of justice is subjective and emotional.


It does to me because I think it is dumb and quite hypocrite of him to go around killing every criminal he meet, but doesn't bother to kill the ones who have done far worse. 

Willings to cross the line in sense that he inspires fear in them with his ruthlessness. Makes the moments when he actually lose it big and impactfull and not a regular thing.




> I think the events in RH/A affected him in a big way. Enough that he was willing to work under Batman's rule, to earn a father's love so to speak. Words from Black Mask but I also think of it as a meta commentary on Jason's state of mind. He left Roy out of selflessness and it opens the need to have someone to be close to.


I don't think the events in RH/A even come close to what UTRH did to him mentally so if he was pretty ok in N52, why he suddenly wouldn't be in Rebirth?

And why Jason even trying to earn Bruce's approval and "love" anyway? I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore.

I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.

----------


## Aioros22

Absolutely. You can say is not as final as a bullet done but someone with such a taste of power being paralyzed without moving a finger will definatly feel he wished he was dead. Of course If and when Roman comes back and badder than ever, Jason will have to reflect on that promise. 

"If I had put a cap on your ass you wouldn`t be here bothering me or mine any longer". 

I think the issue is the duplicity of the Outlaws not being highlighted as much as character interaction and the family bonds. After the first arc you had two issues about it and one ends up with a big Jason and Bizarro moment (issue#7). But Loedbell still drops cues. For example, last issue why was Artemis on ropes and Jason in chains, half naked (likely after been stripped and beaten up) with guns locked at him? 

One, because I think Loedbell is making a visual cue to Martson`s amazon and ropes iconography. Two, because _unlike_ Artemis, Jason as Red Hood has a known criminal rap sheet the size of a small country, assasinations included. Black Mask knows him by reputation. Deathstroke knew him by reputation. Amanda Waller knows him by reputation. 

They just need to bring it more often and particularly about Artemis as well, especially after her deal in Qvrac.

----------


## Aioros22

> And why Jason even trying to earn Bruce's approval and "love" anyway? I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore.
> 
> I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.


He very much sees Bruce as his father and always have. Part of the reason the dinamic is tragic and emotional is because none of them fully give up and give in. It`s a play on the old saying of you can never come back home but each of us make amends with the past and parents as best as we can. 

I can get behind Jason honoring a promise if it also helps *himself* be a better person or feel like one because to me that`s not the same as being a puppy dog who`s only doing it for Bruce. Everytime he`s been called it`s usually when something big is going on (including the Diner since it was about Bane targetting all of them). I just wish they did it less because it both compromises his act and his current character arc but that`s not the same as not doing it altogether.

----------


## G-Potion

> Absolutely. You can say is not as final as a bullet done but someone with such a taste of power being paralyzed without moving a finger will definatly feel he wished he was dead. Of course If and when Roman comes back and badder than ever, Jason will have to reflect on that promise. 
> 
> "If I had put a cap on your ass you wouldn`t be here bothering me or mine any longer".


It's why even paralyzing wouldn't work on Joker. He will come back. And Jason already knows better than leaving him alive. That line works on anyone, once, but not the Joker ever.




> I think the issue is the duplicity of the Outlaws not being highlighted as much as character interaction and the family bonds. After the first arc you had two issues about it and one ends up with a big Jason and Bizarro moment (issue#7). But Loedbell still drops cues. For example, last issue why was Artemis on ropes and Jason in chains, half naked (likely after been stripped and beaten up) with guns locked at him? 
> 
> One, because I think Loedbell is making a visual cue to Martson`s amazon and ropes iconography. Two, because _unlike_ Artemis, Jason as Red Hood has a known criminal rap sheet the size of a small country, assasinations included. Black Mask knows him by reputation. Deathstroke knew him by reputation. Amanda Waller knows him by reputation. 
> 
> They just need to bring it more often and particularly about Artemis as well, especially after her deal in Qvrac.


Good point!

----------


## Rise

> He very much sees Bruce as his father and always have. Part of the reason the dinamic is tragic and emotional is because none of them fully give up and give in. It`s a play on the old saying of you can never come back home but each of us make amends with the past and parents as best as we can. 
> 
> I can get behind Jason honoring a promise if it also helps *himself* be a better person or feel like one because to me that`s not the same as being a puppy dog who`s only doing it for Bruce. Everytime he`s been called it`s usually when something big is going on (including the Diner since it was about Bane targetting all of them). I just wish they did it less because it both compromises his act and his current character arc but that`s not the same as not doing it altogether.


I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot. 

He for sure did when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.

----------


## Aioros22

Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.


Pitch this to Lobdell my man.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

> I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot. 
> 
> He for sure did when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.


Well, I don`t think his promise was all about Bruce to begin with. The first arc is about him picking up after the ordeal with Roy and being on his own again.

Loedbell himself wrote Jason and Bruce getting closer after the events of UTRH in this very title. I know Tomasi threw a wrench later and that`s wholly on Bruce but as far as Loedbell is concerned, Jay and Bruce will always at least _try_ reaching some middle ground. Plus, I rather he moves on from UTRH regarding any of the bats.  

Basically, just because Bruce keeps being dissapointing doesn`t mean he`s not seen as a father figure. They can be shitty as anyting else.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G, 

Got no Twitter ma man. 

If someone here does and likes the idea well enough, you got my blessing.

----------


## Rise

> Well, I don`t think his promise was all about Bruce to begin with. The first arc is about him picking up after the ordeal with Roy and being on his own again.


He could have at least try to show that it's actually not really all about him, but he didn't.




> Loedbell himself wrote Jason and Bruce getting closer after the events of UTRH in this very title. I know Tomasi threw a wrench later and that`s wholly on Bruce but as far as Loedbell is concerned, Jay and Bruce will always at least _try_ reaching some middle ground. Plus, I rather he moves on from UTRH regarding any of the bats.


I think what Lobdell did in improving their relationship was really great and I'm glad that he did and I don't even acknowledge what Tomasi did since he only did that for his cheap drama.

I didn't say that he should be stuck in UTRH nor he actually is, but there are events in someone's life that will always have an impact on them like how Jason's death will always has impact on him.




> Basically, just because Bruce keeps being dissapointing doesn`t mean he`s not seen as a father figure. They can be shitty as anyting else.


That would be the case with father of blood, not a father of a choice because you will always be connected by DNA with the former.

----------


## Assam

> Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.


And who should this rival be? 

Harvey Bullock: Ace Detective. 

Someone try to tell me Jason and Harvey playing off each other wouldn't be amazing. 

Also, numbers from October came in: RHatO had its usual drop, now at 23,680. (Also, I was wrong about what I said previously, Batgirl didn't stabilize yet and is back to dropping.)

----------


## Rise

Harvey wouldn't be able to be a match to Jason (tho, Jason trolling Harvey would funny like he used to do when he was Robin).

The idea from *Aioros22* is definitely has potential and an interesting, but it will fit a solo series better than the outlaws (which why I hope DC someday give him his own solo book because he deserves it and there are many things you can do with it).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Lobdell has shifted his approach regarding Jason. Is not about killing anymore but rather, about delivering justice. This was clearly shown with Black Mask, killing him would've been far too easy and too kind for him but making him live imprisoned within his own body? That is the kind of justice Lobdell is aiming for with Jason. Within this mindset, Jason's approach to deal with the Joker would be rehabilitating him and making him live with the full knowledge and awareness of all the awful deed he did.

----------


## Rise

I would definitely approve of this approach, but this isn't what Lobdell doing. Jason stopped killing because "I promised broose!!".

----------


## kiwiliko

> That would be the case with father of blood, not a father of a choice because you will always be connected by DNA with the former.


At risk of bring that old argument back again, Bruce takes on a role early in Jason's life and was a huge influence during his development. Adoption does not magically make it easier for someone to just cut off a parent figure any more than blood.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I would definitely approve of this approach, but this isn't what Lobdell doing. Jason stopped killing because "I promised broose!!".


That needs proper development. 

Here's sales numbers for last month issue


105. Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 (DC) - 23,680 

And this is for issue 14

102	92	Red Hood and the Outlaws	14	$3.99	DC	24,376

Hellboy's interactions with DLC characters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eR9CoFHm6Q

Pretty lazy to be honest.

----------


## Rise

> At risk of bring that old argument back again, Bruce takes on a role early in Jason's life and was a huge influence during his development. Adoption does not magically make it easier for someone to just cut off a parent figure any more than blood.


It's actually does because it's a *choice* (Bruce has more responsibility towards the adoption because he is the guardian and he made the choice as adult).

If your father figure keep disappointing you over and over again, you simply stop seeing them as one while your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines. If he is an awful one, he simply just not your "dad".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's actually does because it's a *choice* (Bruce has more responsibility towards the adoption because he is the guardian and he made the choice as adult).
> 
> If your father figure keep disappointing you over and over again, you simply stop seeing them as one while your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines. If he is an awful one, he simply just not your "dad".


I disagree.

Your father (or family even) is not who you are blood related but who raised you, who was for you when you needed them the most. And Bruce is absolutely that person for Jason. Jason can't give up on Bruce anymore Bruce can do the same for Jason.

----------


## Rise

Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't. 

The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.

Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't. 
> 
> The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.
> 
> Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.


Jason is pretty undeniably was influenced by Bruce, I could point out that his entire vigilante life has a foundation in his Robin days and the training he received not to mention a good deal of UtRH is his reaction towards Bruce's lack of action. He full well can take all his immediate chances to kill the Joker but keeping him there for Bruce to see them both was a pretty obvious message to send and that doesn't happen if Bruce wasn't someone who mattered.

Blood only truly is connection as far as you acknowledge someone out there in existence created you at some point. There's no doubt Willis is an abusive afterthought for Jason in comparison to Bruce and he loses no sleep thinking like so, wether or not that changes depends on where the book is planning to go.

----------


## Rise

Can you please just read my previous comments so I wouldn't repeat myself like a broken record? I'm not trying to be rude here.

You know what? I will just qoute them for you.




> I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore
> 
> I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.





> I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot. 
> 
> He for sure did (see him as father figure) when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.


Also, I never declared that Bruce has no influence on him.

----------


## kiwiliko

I just feel your wording contradicts what you wrote in the last few pages.
Sorry if that came off as rude, wasn't my intention to sound like that.




> Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development".





> your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines.

----------


## Rise

Don't worry, I don't think you were rude.

And how these qoutes contradicting what I said?  :Confused: 

I didn't deny that Bruce has influence on him, I just said that Jason didn't really grow up under his wing to say he has a "huge influence during his development" (unless you mean in meta level which is different matter).

And I never claimed that only blood can be your family because this isn't true at all, I'm just saying that you can't deny them because you are connected to them by DNA.

Jason did see Bruce as a father figure when he lived with him, but he was never enough to him that he decided to run all way to Africa to find a mother who he never meet before and Bruce kept disappointed many times that you can never blame him if he doesn't want to think of him as a father anymore.

Catherine on the hand was a different case. She was truly an example of "parent isn't just by blood" because she raised him up and never once made him doubt that she wasn't actually his brith mom. She was more of parent to him than Bruce ever was and she is the one who Jason can never stop seeing her as one.

----------


## Aioros22

> Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't. 
> 
> The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.
> 
> Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.


Bruce and Alfred were every bit a big influence. Catherine was a loving mother and Jason always mentions so. Her death is the first main change in his life but in the end of the day, Jason grew (physically and morally) in Wayne Manor and in their line of work.

----------


## Aahz

> C`mon now, are we seriously now debating who the dead Robin in BvS verse _is_?


Now with a Nightwing movie in the works it is pretty clear, but I doubt that it was really set in stone by the time BvS as made.

----------


## Rise

Physically? Jason lived with Bruce when he was 12 and died at 14-15. How the heck this even compared in any way to how Catherine raised him from diapers?

Morally? Jason has a sense of right and wrong before he meet Bruce and the streets has a bigger influence in his current philosophy. 

In meta way? Of course he did since he is the reason why he become a vigilante and living the way he is today.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Jason did see Bruce as a father figure when he lived with him, but he was never enough to him that he decided to run all way to Africa to find a mother who he never meet before and Bruce kept disappointed many times that you can never blame him if he doesn't want to think of him as a father anymore.
> 
> Catherine on the hand was a different case. She was truly an example of "parent isn't just by blood" because she raised him up and never once made him doubt that she wasn't actually his brith mom. She was more of parent to him than Bruce ever was and she is the one who Jason can never stop seeing her as one.


Fair enough, I don't quite get what you mean by the meta level but I do still think Bruce's influence is significant to the course that Jason's life eventually went on. Flashpoint implies a much different future even if it's not one I found realistic that's centered around where he would have went without meeting Bruce. It's implied that some part of Bruce's decision to take Jason in is also a desire to see Jason turned away from a life of crime but making Jason Robin and putting him back in situations dealing with crime are events I would argue encouraged Jason to stick to his morals and eventually turn away from Bruce. Not that he affected Jason's morals but he had a pretty big say in what direction Jason was going with a future in crimefighting.

edit: nevermind the above I clicked post before the page updated. I'm talking meta.

Catherine I have no arguments for, I just think she is also just as much a significant figure in his life and that doesn't need to mean Bruce isn't (wether or not he was a positive significant figure can still be debated). Regarding how better they were for Jason as parents though, if Tomasi's Bruce was never (implicitly) retconned I'd fully agree and say not just Jason but most of Bruce's kids need to cut off that kind of person for their own health. Bruce already walks a line with mourning but the physical/mental beating he put his kids through in that tantrum was pretty hard to read. Rebirth Bruce is a little all over the place but if he ever returned to that it would near mirror an abuse cycle.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Physically? Jason lived with Bruce when he was 12 and died at 14-15. How the heck this even compared in any way to how Catherine raised him from diapers?
> 
> Morally? Jason has a sense of right and wrong before he meet Bruce and it clear that he does at their first meeting and the streets has a bigger influence in his gray morals. 
> 
> In meta way? Of course he did since he is the reason why he become a vigilante and living the way he is today.


Catherine was either a drug addict or suffering from a long, weakening disease that wasn't able to properly provide Jason with the care he needed growing up. And despite this, is a constant presence on Jason's thoughts. Something that I might add, is Lobdell's work since Catherine was a foot note of Jason before the N52.

Bruce could've lived little time with Jason but he left a very deep mark on him. Not only he made sure Jason didn't lacked anything, it helped him to focus his energies and his skills by giving him a purpose. Bruce was also the role model and father figure Jason was sorely lacking. Is odd you feel we are misinterpreting your words when you are making very clear you don't think much of Bruce and Jason's relationship despite being the cornerstone of Jason's entire character. 

And for the record, time is a minor factor for people to develop strong attachments with each other in real life.

----------


## Rise

A foot note? In the one year Jason was Robin in post crisis before they killed him, it was made clear that Jason was pretty fond of her and that she was good to him. She only got sick/or addicated shortly before she died, not when Jason was pretty small. Post-Red Hood and pre-52, things were completely messed up (heck, you have Morrison who had Bruce forcing Jason to dye his hair and telling him straight to his face that he isn't his father and Winick who had Bruce throwing a batrang at his freaking throat).

Lobdell was actually the one who showed Jason's parents in pretty negative light in the 0 issue and n52 series in general. He made Catherine a junike since Jason was a really small child and Willis an abusive father despite the fact that he wasn't originally in pre-52 and was simply a guy who got involved with bad guys after losing his job. Jason didn't even really hate him since he got really angry and brust out crying when he find out that  Harvey killed his father.

And seriously, are my posts completely confusing that you keep calling me up in things I didn't even say or imply? I'm honestly getting tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to address the second part of your post.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Neither Catherine nor Willis were mentioned during _UTRH, Lost Days, Revenge of the Red Hood, Streets Run Red, Countdown_ or any other storyline where Jason showed up after his resurrection. If you truly believe that then you failed to read between lines, UtRH and most of Jason's more outrageous actions on the Pre Flashpoint universe are those of a child throwing a tantrum because Dad brought a new baby home. He could try to justify himself as trying to do what Bruce can't do, but the truth of the matter is that it was all about him giving Bruce the middle finger. If her would've been committed to the eradication of crime as he said, he wouldn't staged the whole thing with the Joker and he would've killed him on the spot.

Lobdell changed things, yeah, but he also made them both a constant presence in Jason's life. Someone that Jason grew to love and care for them until the end (Catherine more than Willis obviously). And then, when Jason was alone and hurting, Bruce came into his life filling the void left by Catherine.

----------


## magpieM

After reading all of your posts, guys, I think the best way to observe what's going on in Jason's mind is to focus on upcoming stories in RHATO itself.

I do feel that the basic tone of Jason in recent Rebirth issues is kind of too 'emotional' (or 'weak'). But I also began to have a feeling that Lobdell did it all on purpose. Long ago he used Black Mask to blur out that Jason was 'elevating himself in Batman's eyes', looking for 'father's love'. It's funny that even a villain and outsider had already found that there was something wrong with this famous Red Hood.

So I think that Jason's recent era of 'weakness' and blind trust is a preparation for future fall out between him and Bizarro, and potentially, the drama of Willis vs Bruce. I think all the clues, the mysterious guy and Willis letter, are all pointing at those big events. I'll wait and see how things finally break out before evaluating Jason's current mental status or Lobdells writing. 

And speaking of Catherine, I'm very curious about the words in the letter "Miss her more than......" Was Willis talking about Catherine, or Sheila? It's good to know that in the future, a lot of family history will be revealed to torture Jason's feeling.

----------


## Rise

> Neither Catherine nor Willis were mentioned during _UTRH, Lost Days, Revenge of the Red Hood, Streets Run Red, Countdown_ or any other storyline where Jason showed up after his resurrection. If you truly believe that then you failed to read between lines, UtRH and most of Jason's more outrageous actions on the Pre Flashpoint universe are those of a child throwing a tantrum because Dad brought a new baby home. He could try to justify himself as trying to do what Bruce can't do, but the truth of the matter is that it was all about him giving Bruce the middle finger. If her would've been committed to the eradication of crime as he said, he wouldn't staged the whole thing with the Joker and he would've killed him on the spot.
> 
> Lobdell changed things, yeah, but he also made them both a constant presence in Jason's life. Someone that Jason grew to love and care for them until the end (Catherine more than Willis obviously). And then, when Jason was alone and hurting, Bruce came into his life filling the void left by Catherine.


My God, I literally facepalmed. 

When the heck did I say Willis and Catherine were mentioned in Post-Red Hood and pre-52? I just said that things were completely messed up during that period that I even give example with how they turned Bruce into a jerk with Jason. They have completely ignored his past and didn't even now which direction in to take him so it's not surprise that Catherine wasn't mentioned.

He made unnessary changes. There was absolutely no reason to make Willis such a horrible person while you could have kept things the way it has been. In secret origins, Lobdell had Bruce using Jason to fix himself and not actually trying to help him so he didn't portray Bruce in good light either.

----------


## magpieM

> Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.


This is a really good idea! Jason's own version of 'Gordon' who is actually a rival? 

I suddenly recall the encounters between Yuri Orlov and Jack Valentine in 'Lord of War'

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> My God, I literally facepalmed. 
> 
> When the heck did I say Willis and Catherine were mentioned in Post-Red Hood and pre-52? I just said that things were completely messed up during that period that I even give example with how they turned Bruce into a jerk with Jason. They have completely ignored his past and didn't even now which direction in to take him so it's not surprise that Catherine wasn't mentioned.


I was elaborating why they were a foot note on Jason's story. Regardless how they characters were written before, they simply were irrelevant for Jason's character. Bruce being a jerk or not comes down the the writer in turn and they were ignored because as I've said before, the core of Jason's character is his relationship with Bruce. 




> He made unnessary changes. There was absolutely no reason to make Willis such a horrible person while you could have kept things the way it has been. In secret origins, Lobdell had Bruce using Jason to fix himself and not actually trying to help him so he didn't portray Bruce in good light either.


Why kept thing the same? Lobdell has always been about doing new things and Willis didn't have much of a character before either so turning him into a deadbeat dad is a perfectly reasonable choice to make. Showing Bruce as being equally flawed as Jason was precisely the point. And hey, is much better than making him suicidal.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm hoping they eventually give Christopher Priest a shot at writing Jason.

----------


## Rise

> Why kept thing the same? Lobdell has always been about doing new things and Willis didn't have much of a character before either so turning him into a deadbeat dad is a perfectly reasonable choice to make. Showing Bruce as being equally flawed as Jason was precisely the point. And hey, is much better than making him suicidal.


What King did was awful which why I hate cheap drama that some writers obsessed with and don't approve with the changes Lobdell made.

Also, I'm just going to leave this here:

----------


## G-Potion

> Also, I'm just going to leave this here:


The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the _want_ is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.

----------


## G-Potion

> After reading all of your posts, guys, I think the best way to observe what's going on in Jason's mind is to focus on upcoming stories in RHATO itself.
> 
> I do feel that the basic tone of Jason in recent Rebirth issues is kind of too 'emotional' (or 'weak'). But I also began to have a feeling that Lobdell did it all on purpose. Long ago he used Black Mask to blur out that Jason was 'elevating himself in Batman's eyes', looking for 'father's love'. It's funny that even a villain and outsider had already found that there was something wrong with this famous Red Hood.
> 
> So I think that Jason's recent era of 'weakness' and blind trust is a preparation for future fall out between him and Bizarro, and potentially, the drama of Willis vs Bruce. I think all the clues, the mysterious guy and Willis letter, are all pointing at those big events. I'll wait and see how things finally break out before evaluating Jason's current mental status or Lobdells writing.


Good thinking. We're seeing this issue by issue, but Lobdell no doubt has a bigger picture in mind.

----------


## kiwiliko

> The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the _want_ is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.


Read it the same way too. There's nearly equal amounts canon content of Jason and Bruce tearing into each other as there are of the two of them expressing the desire to make amends, best way to probably put it is just it's complicated. Also had someone point out to me Jason doesn't exactly have the most objective view of where he stands with family and what he thinks Bruce feels about him as a son isn't always what Bruce is feeling.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm hoping they eventually give Christopher Priest a shot at writing Jason.


I wonder if he even likes the character.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I wonder if he even likes the character.


I bet he does. I think he would like the challenge of taking a complex character with a unique history and making a story with him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Read it the same way too. There's nearly equal amounts canon content of Jason and Bruce tearing into each other as there are of the two of them expressing the desire to make amends, best way to probably put it is just it's complicated. Also had someone point out to me Jason doesn't exactly have the most objective view of where he stands with family and what he thinks Bruce feels about him as a son isn't always what Bruce is feeling.


Yes subjectivity and lack of self-worth have always been a Jason thing. He was dismissive of himself in that Justice League issue and Alfred has to correct him. Even with friends, he thinks he harms Roy more than helps him, and ends their relationship without giving Roy a say in the matter.

You could argue that Bruce hasn't done much to feel like they are equally conflicted, equally wanting. But with the numerous writings of Bruce, it's impossible to use other titles as references, but rather to judge it from how Lobdell himself is writing Bruce, as his Bruce would make the most sense for this push-and-pull thing between Jason and Bruce to feel genuine.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Yes subjectivity and lack of self-worth have always been a Jason thing. He was dismissive of himself in that Justice League issue and Alfred has to correct him. Even with friends, he thinks he harms Roy more than helps him, and ends their relationship without giving Roy a say in the matter.
> 
> You could argue that Bruce hasn't done much to feel like they are equally conflicted, equally wanting. But with the numerous writings of Bruce, it's impossible to use other titles as references, but rather to judge it from how Lobdell himself is writing Bruce, as his Bruce would make the most sense for this push-and-pull thing between Jason and Bruce to feel genuine.


Not quite push pull but the sheer amount of times other titles like to pin up Bruce angsting in front of his display case show at least some form of longing even if that's exactly the kind of action that would drive Jason further away.

----------


## G-Potion

Guys, vote vote vote (with your FB account)

Hiya Toys will be producing action figures based on Injustice 2

http://woobox.com/gk9d7s

----------


## Tony Stark

> Guys, vote vote vote (with your FB account)
> 
> Hiya Toys will be producing action figures based on Injustice 2
> 
> http://woobox.com/gk9d7s


I voted for Jason. Thanks.

----------


## Kalethas31

> Why is it?


teammates who have a wider fan base! the first RHATO had great characters and the problem was tynion.

I know it's impossible to bring the old team but they could bring more popular characters than an Amazon that almost nobody knows (Cassie would be better if you want a WW character) and a character like B-0 (I prefer Kon-El)

----------


## Assam

> teammates who have a wider fan base! the first RHATO had great characters and the problem was tynion.
> 
> I know it's impossible to bring the old team but they could bring more popular characters than an Amazon that almost nobody knows (Cassie would be better if you want a WW character) and a character like B-0 (I prefer Kon-El)


No idea why you'd bring up a nothing (although likable) character like B-0 when discussing characters with large fanbases so I'm just gonna ignore that. 

And no, sorry, but you can't just stick characters into places where they don't belong. Bizarro and Artemis fit the team.  Kon and Cassie (when properly written) are straight-up heroes. Having them become murderous anti-heroes would be just as stupid as when Lobdell did it with Roy, and continue their very long streak of being written OOC. Hell, if Lobdell is writing, we already know how awful he is at writing those characters. 

Plus, you know, they've kinda got their own circle of friends, and it'd just be silly if Jason went from stealing Dick's friends to having his own friends to stealing Tim's friends.

----------


## EMarie

> teammates who have a wider fan base! the first RHATO had great characters and the problem was tynion.
> 
> I know it's impossible to bring the old team but they could bring more popular characters than an Amazon that almost nobody knows (Cassie would be better if you want a WW character) and a character like B-0 (I prefer Kon-El)


Cassie and Kon-El are associated with Tim. People already complained that Jason "stole" Dick's friends with Roy and Kori. Artemis was actually Wonder Woman and like Bizarro fits the anti-hero theme better than a lot of Wonder or Super related characters. Bizarro has been around the longest and is pretty well known. If their connections were played up better in other titles (Wonder Woman, Action Comics, etc.) it would be more ideal.

----------


## magpieM

> As others have said, I don't think it's true what you said about toxicity. But I had that same idea about a group who hate each other but are forced to stick together the moment I saw that fanart of Red Hood/Deathstroke and one other guy I forgot his name. Imagine a situation where Jason has to work with mercenary/killers and at the same time has to sabotage their effort in killing _every_ mark they come across. Or a group where they have to work together for the time being, but with a clear understanding that at the end, it will be them fighting each other.


Now Deathstroke is not a mercenary/killers as he was, if you follow his Rebirth series by Priest. He is leading and mentoring some next generation heroes & heroines including his kids and other kids with government funding. He decided to make amends to his family, and with his new found beliefs, to make the world a better place. (And for a brief moment he even mentioned Justice League). Well it won't last long for sure, but it's still a interesting story.

Those fanart is not out of nowhere. Jason and Deathstroke did fight in comic, and they did work together for a while to assemble the Arkham Army and plot the military attack in Gotham in Arkham Knight Game story. I like the comic a lot, thanks to Soy's art. However, the actual game plot was really bad for Jason. And what rocksteady did to Deathstroke in the game was utterly unforgivable...... Besides fanart, I think there is also a large overlap of the fanbase between Red Hood and Deathstroke, especially among gamers. They are both popular in fighting games. (BTW, I just voted for Jason through FB!)




> I'm hoping they eventually give Christopher Priest a shot at writing Jason.


I remember that when the news of Priest moving to Justice League came out, some people in that thread mentioned that he's not very interested in Batfam stories. I don't know if it's really true though

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the _want_ is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.


That is exactly what that scene was meant to convey. 




> Guys, vote vote vote (with your FB account)
> 
> Hiya Toys will be producing action figures based on Injustice 2
> 
> http://woobox.com/gk9d7s




Nice!

----------


## Rise

> The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the _want_ is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.


What a strange way to analyse this scene. 

The whole thing thing was quite simple and clear. He didn't say Bruce doesn't see me as family, he said whatever left it's not family, NOT FOR HIM. Notice how he was talking about his feeling, not how Bruce might have felt. He was opening up to Artemis about his true feelings.

Besides, you guys do realize that he can still have a bond with him without necessary see him as a father? Him not thinking of him as a one doesn't mean that he doesn't care about him anymore.

----------


## Rise

> I remember that when the news of Priest moving to Justice League came out, some people in that thread mentioned that he's not very interested in Batfam stories. I don't know if it's really true though


Kind of? He think Dick is bland (which finally someone stated it) and doesn't seem to like the concept of kid heroes/sidekicks when he talked about Damian in his first interviews about Deathstroke, but he seems interested in Batman.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What a strange way to analyse this scene. 
> 
> The whole thing thing was quite simple and clear. He didn't say Bruce doesn't see me as family, he said whatever left it's not family, NOT FOR HIM. Notice how he was talking about his feeling, not how Bruce might have felt. He was opening up to Artemis about his true feelings.
> 
> Besides, you guys do realize that he can still have a bond with him without necessary see him as a father? Him not thinking of him as a one doesn't mean that he doesn't care about him anymore.


Ah I see the problem. You're taking everything at face value when Jason has been consistently depicted as an unreliable narrator. And one that has serious self worth issues to boot. Jason will always see Bruce as a father whether you like it or not, and the moments where this is made clear just through the last six years far, far overweight the moments where Jason ties to argue otherwise.

The best example of this is the second annual of the first Volume of RHATO, where we are given a peek of Jason's psyche via a psychic alien

----------


## Rise

You do know that the whole issue wasn't even serious and just cute thing story (Jason's psyche inculde....a murdering Santa Claus)?

It's not matter of me liking it or not (why the heck you feel so strongly about it, anyway? And stop assuming things about me and treating me like an idiot), it's what I take from the writing. He wasn't narrating in that sence about some event, he was opening up about what he actually felt to Artemis.

----------


## Fergus

> Kind of? He think Dick is bland (which finally someone stated it) and doesn't seem to like the concept of kid heroes/sidekicks when he talked about Damian in his first interviews about Deathstroke, but he seems interested in Batman.


He requested to use Damian for his Defiance but he was declined because Damian was over exposed. His posts on his site also seems to indicate the opposite as does the fact that he has Wally 14 and a sidekick on Defiance.

Voted Red Hood my son mains him and is quite fond of him so I know he get a kick out of adding INJ2 Red Hood to his collection.

----------


## Aahz

> He requested to use Damian for his Defiance but he was declined because Damian was over exposed.


They would have to pull Damian out of Teen Titans for that, and since he is the main character in that book ...

----------


## Assam

They say there's a story behind every image

brown coat.jpg

I'm assuming that for this, Cass watched Firefly and so decided to steal Jason's brown 'coat'.

----------


## kiwiliko

> They say there's a story behind every image
> 
> brown coat.jpg
> 
> I'm assuming that for this, Cass watched Firefly and so decided to steal Jason's brown 'coat'.


Oh god that's some adorable art. Any chance you still have the link to the artists site?

----------


## Assam

> Oh god that's some adorable art. Any chance you still have the link to the artists site?


http://emina15966emina.tumblr.com/

----------


## Kalethas31

> No idea why you'd bring up a nothing (although likable) character like B-0 when discussing characters with large fanbases so I'm just gonna ignore that. 
> 
> And no, sorry, but you can't just stick characters into places where they don't belong. Bizarro and Artemis fit the team.  Kon and Cassie (when properly written) are straight-up heroes. Having them become murderous anti-heroes would be just as stupid as when Lobdell did it with Roy, and continue their very long streak of being written OOC. Hell, if Lobdell is writing, we already know how awful he is at writing those characters. 
> 
> Plus, you know, they've kinda got their own circle of friends, and it'd just be silly if Jason went from stealing Dick's friends to having his own friends to stealing Tim's friends.


Lobdell already working with kon and cassie in new 52 and their personalities of the current continuity are compatible with Jason

----------


## G-Potion

DexterSoy: Set the world ablaze

----------


## Aioros22

> Physically? Jason lived with Bruce when he was 12 and died at 14-15. How the heck this even compared in any way to how Catherine raised him from diapers?
> 
> Morally? Jason has a sense of right and wrong before he meet Bruce and the streets has a bigger influence in his current philosophy. 
> 
> In meta way? Of course he did since he is the reason why he become a vigilante and living the way he is today.


Catherine raised him to be a normal child. His time in Wayne Manor made Jason the character he is, *both good and the bad*. You notice he never mentions Catherine when it comes to blows of ethics or morality and growing pains? She wasn`t there and she had no say on the path his life took over. 

His morality is shaped from the big changes he`s had. The time in the streets surviving alone, what he learned under Bruce (again, both the good and bad, what works and what doesn`t for him), dying and returning because Talia and the League and lastly his year with Ducra and the All Caste. If anything, what is sorely missing is more Ducra, since she was that one teacher who accepted him unconditionally despite knowing the destructive potential he could bring on the world.

Whether Jason goes on and off about fighting the father/son bond with Bruce, Batman`s influence in his life is clearly there and the fights they have always revolved about unresolved issues, his death and what could still be. They`re the Elephants of each other`s rooms. 

That`s how I read it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Besides, you guys do realize that he can still have a bond with him without necessary see him as a father? Him not thinking of him as a one doesn't mean that he doesn't care about him anymore.


Absolutely, he will always care regardless. The thing is, the vast majority of writers tackle their interactions as a greek tragic, deranged father/son bond which is never going to be fully resolved and I don`t see Loedbell being the main exception other than tackling it better than say a Tynion. 

And well for me, "tackling it better" is already a big difference.

----------


## Rise

> DexterSoy: Set the world ablaze


I really like this costume a lot. I hope someday they use it for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nice!


How does this look?  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> This is a really good idea! Jason's own version of 'Gordon' who is actually a rival? 
> 
> I suddenly recall the encounters between Yuri Orlov and Jack Valentine in 'Lord of War'


At the very least a mouthpiece that exposes and talks about Jason`s/Outlaws criminal act since most of the book is spent on their character interactions and family bond. If they don`t look like the bad guys they`re supposed to, BAM enters the Law Enforcer guy listing some major case to investigate. 

"That Red Hood guy stole money from 10 corporates on the same day! The devil even left a message saying Thank You!"

"Yesir, but those 10 were kind of dirty, weren`t they? I mean, some cases haven`t even been filed with the type of charges that are being inv.."

"Which side are you ON Sergeant? Still believing in Robin Hood at your age? He`s a Most Wanted and did it to finance his own enterprise! They`re all the same!"

*cue in some jamming Blues*


You can virtually make the panels te guy appears in looking completely at odds with the standard look of the book as if we`re playing Carmen Sandiego.

----------


## Aioros22

Man that poll isn`t even fair, he`s already smoking the whole competition  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

> Absolutely, he will always care regardless. The thing is, the vast majority of writers tackle their interactions as a greek tragic, deranged father/son bond which is never going to be fully resolved and I don`t see Loedbell being the main exception other than tackling it better than say a Tynion. 
> 
> And well for me, "tackling it better" is already a big difference.


Honestly, I do really like their father/son relationship and enjoy their moments. I just feel that Jason stopped seeing him as a father after everything that happened between them (and I don't think that a necessary a bad thing since the writers currently seem to think that only Damian count as a son anyway), but it good to me either way whether he did or not.

----------


## Aioros22

> I bet he does. I think he would like the challenge of taking a complex character with a unique history and making a story with him.


He finds the Dick types bland and loves complex characters so yeah, looking forward to one day him tacking the Jay.

----------


## Rise

What this poll about?

I would like to see Priest's take on Jason one day and his type definitely fit him. Though, he can be a little bit slow and monthly schedule can be a pain with him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Man that poll isn`t even fair, he`s already smoking the whole competition


No kidding. Where are these Red Hood fans coming from? The number is still climbing.

----------


## G-Potion

> What this poll about?


Here it is!




> Guys, vote vote vote (with your FB account)
> 
> Hiya Toys will be producing action figures based on Injustice 2
> 
> http://woobox.com/gk9d7s

----------


## G-Potion

> At the very least a mouthpiece that exposes and talks about Jason`s/Outlaws criminal act since most of the book is spent on their character interactions and family bond. If they don`t look like the bad guys they`re supposed to, BAM enters the Law Enforcer guy listing some major case to investigate. 
> 
> "That Red Hood guy stole money from 10 corporates on the same day! The devil even left a message saying Thank You!"
> 
> "Yesir, but those 10 were kind of dirty, weren`t they? I mean, some cases haven`t even been filed with the type of charges that are being inv.."
> 
> "Which side are you ON Sergeant? Still believing in Robin Hood at your age? He`s a Most Wanted and did it to finance his own enterprise! They`re all the same!"
> 
> *cue in some jamming Blues*
> ...


Ate this all up. Give me more!

----------


## Aioros22

> Honestly, I do really like their father/son relationship and enjoy their moments. *I just feel that Jason stopped seeing him as a father* after everything that happened between them (and I don't think that a necessary a bad thing since the writers currently seem to think that only Damian count as a son anyway), but it good to me either way whether he did or not.


I get what you mean, the bond can still be there and being over feeling like his son. I can go as far as saying that under Loedbell it does feel an on and off switch but deep down..way I look at it, I think what keeps that sort of detachment from being a permanente status quo is the nature of a relationship that will never be fully resolved. That will always pull the two back in.

Damn, Bruce is like that ex you never fully let go.

----------


## Rise

> Here it is!


Oh, it's for action figure? Sorry Jason, I can't vote for you since I'm completely against fb (it's not like he need it anyway  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

You can make the panels where the guy appears look like Bizarro`s dream or the gaming panels in RHAA. Totally looking at odds with Soy`s standard style.

----------


## Assam

> Lobdell already working with kon and cassie in new 52 and their personalities of the current continuity are compatible with Jason


You mean those personalities that nobody likes from one of the most universally reviled titles of the Nu52? I don't say "literally" because laws of probability dictate that at least one person likes them (You may very well be that person), but fans of these takes on the characters are an extreme minority, and I can assure you that when they come back they will not resemble Lobdell's takes on the characters.

----------


## Aioros22

Maybe, but Roy was generally well written for a Roy who was single and had no daugher of his own. A but more the devil may care he used to be before that changed his life. 

And particularly in the RRAA finale. 

Sorry Assam, I had to rub that one off.

----------


## Assam

> Maybe, but Roy was generally well written for a Roy who was single and had no daugher of his own. A but more the devil may care he used to be before that changed his life. 
> 
> And particularly in the RRAA finale. 
> 
> Sorry Assam, I had to rub that one off.


One of these days, I will force myself to read through all of RHatO and RHaA so I can give a proper critique of Lobdell's portrayal (and the books themselves) as a whole. 

However, just from the issues I have read (and things I've read directly explained on wikis and TV Tropes) Lobdell made him a murderous, idiotic "Bro", minimized the significance of his Navajo upbringing, and disgustingly tried to paint Roy as being unfair to Ollie and that he was at fault for what happened to him. Lobdell's portrayal was just as OOC as Roy Post-Cry for Justice. The reason I praise Percy so much is because _his_ Roy is what feels to me like an adult Roy who doesn't have Lian. (It also helps that he restored the significance of his upbringing and put the blame for the fallout back on Ollie where it belongs.)

----------


## Kalethas31

> You mean those personalities that nobody likes from one of the most universally reviled titles of the Nu52? I don't say "literally" because laws of probability dictate that at least one person likes them (You may very well be that person), but fans of these takes on the characters are an extreme minority, and I can assure you that when they come back they will not resemble Lobdell's takes on the characters.


if they want to give jason original teammates they can use essence and crux at least they are new characters

I like essence she is awesome

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Honestly, I do really like their father/son relationship and enjoy their moments. *I just feel that Jason stopped seeing him as a father after everything that happened between them* (and I don't think that a necessary a bad thing since the writers currently seem to think that only Damian count as a son anyway), but it good to me either way whether he did or not.


How can you say that when their most recent meeting was capped off with this exchange?



Only someone struggling with the shadow/legacy of his parents would feel pressured to be like them.




> One of these days, I will force myself to read through all of RHatO and RHaA so I can give a proper critique of Lobdell's portrayal (and the books themselves) as a whole. 
> 
> However, just from the issues I have read (and things I've read directly explained on wikis and *TV Tropes*) Lobdell made him a murderous, idiotic "Bro", minimized the significance of his Navajo upbringing, and disgustingly tried to paint Roy as being unfair to Ollie and that he was at fault for what happened to him. Lobdell's portrayal was just as OOC as Roy Post-Cry for Justice. The reason I praise Percy so much is because _his_ Roy is what feels to me like an adult Roy who doesn't have Lian. (It also helps that he restored the significance of his upbringing and put the blame for the fallout back on Ollie where it belongs.)


Bad, bad source of info regarding RHATO. I've been involved on quite a few arguments with people there over faulty misconceptions regarding the _three books_

----------


## G-Potion

> if they want to give jason original teammates they can use essence and crux at least they are new characters
> 
> I like essence she is awesome


I don't think he needs new teammates but yes Essence is awesome.

----------


## Rise

> I get what you mean, the bond can still be there and being over feeling like his son. I can go as far as saying that under Loedbell it does feel an on and off switch but deep down..way I look at it, I think what keeps that sort of detachment from being a permanente status quo is the nature of a relationship that will never be fully resolved. That will always pull the two back in.
> 
> Damn, Bruce is like that ex you never fully let go.


Your last sentence made me chuckle. 

And yeah, that actually good way at seeing it.

----------


## Rise

Essence definitely needs to come back and I have been saying this for months. Come on, Lobdell

----------


## Assam

> Bad, bad source of info regarding RHATO. I've been involved on quite a few arguments with people there over faulty misconceptions regarding the _three books_


Fair enough, I've seen bias in TV tropes listings plenty of times. What part of what I said is wrong? (Keep in mind that the former two of the four things I mentioned I KNOW are true from what I read) I'd also still be interested in learning what I misunderstood regarding Jason and Roy's relationship.

----------


## G-Potion

> Now Deathstroke is not a mercenary/killers as he was, if you follow his Rebirth series by Priest. He is leading and mentoring some next generation heroes & heroines including his kids and other kids with government funding. He decided to make amends to his family, and with his new found beliefs, to make the world a better place. (And for a brief moment he even mentioned Justice League). Well it won't last long for sure, but it's still a interesting story.
> 
> Those fanart is not out of nowhere. Jason and Deathstroke did fight in comic, and they did work together for a while to assemble the Arkham Army and plot the military attack in Gotham in Arkham Knight Game story. I like the comic a lot, thanks to Soy's art. However, the actual game plot was really bad for Jason. And what rocksteady did to Deathstroke in the game was utterly unforgivable......


I stopped reading Deathstroke a while ago but yeah I know the current status quo. By mercenary/killers I didn't mean anyone specific, just giving thought to the type of teammates that would make the group dynamics as antagonistic like Assam suggested. I used to have the same thought when I by chance saw that one fanart.




> Besides fanart, I think there is also a large overlap of the fanbase between Red Hood and Deathstroke, especially among gamers. They are both popular in fighting games. (BTW, I just voted for Jason through FB!)


True. The poll is going _very well_ for Jason.

----------


## Assam

Jason working with Slade on a long term basis would make him irredeemable in my eyes. Not interested.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Fair enough, I've seen bias in TV tropes listings plenty of times. What part of what I said is wrong? (Keep in mind that the former two of the four things I mentioned I KNOW are true from what I read) I'd also still be interested in learning what I misunderstood regarding Jason and Roy's relationship.


Is oversimplifying things of Roy's characterization and failing to look the nuances behind it. Roy wasn't idiotic (in fact he was the smarter member of the team) but he was someone deeply conflicted who spent most of the series running away from his demons by putting a jokester front. This was obvious to anyone who actually bothered to read the books but a _ton_ of people let their bias color their impressions and blinded them to these nuances. Roy wasn't murderous as much as being pragmatic, and c'mon, he's a guy with a freaking bow. Those things are made to kill. What they were expecting him to do? Lobdell did reduce the importance of Roy's Navajo past because it wasn't important to the story he wanted to tell. And as I've mentioned many times before, he wants to do his own thing rather than follow someone else's steps. 

And lastly, Roy does blame Ollie but he's perfectly _aware_ he's the one in the wrong. And he admitted it such on issue 37.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy is on fire today. Set the work in progress.  :Big Grin:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Soy is on fire today. Set the work in progress.


Nice. I love that he's such a fan of Jason and we get this stuff.

----------


## Assam

> Roy wasn't murderous as much as being pragmatic, and c'mon, he's a guy with a freaking bow. Those things are made to kill. What they were expecting him to do?


Archers in comics have long been able to be effective without killing, Roy included. And it doesn't matter if its "Pragmatic". It's still killing. And while I've got no problem with Jason or Kory doing this, it actually fits their characters,  it doesn't fit Roy at all. 




> Lobdell did reduce the importance of Roy's Navajo past because it wasn't important to the story he wanted to tell. .


Because removing one of the things that makes a character unique so you can do something far less interesting is a good thing? 




> And as I've mentioned many times before, he wants to do his own thing rather than follow someone else's steps.


You talking about Roy or Lobdell? Cause if its the latter, that just raises one of the problems with the Nu52 as a whole: Erasing years of character growth and development so writers can evolve characters in new ways...that were almost never even close to being as good as the original. 




> And lastly, Roy does blame Ollie but he's perfectly _aware_ he's the one in the wrong. And he admitted it such on issue 37.


Exactly and that's the problem. I don't know how Lobdell retold the story and I really don't care (That version's not even canon anymore) Ollie is an arrogant ass who had no idea what he was doing as a guardian and is completely at fault. (And again, there's not point in citing issue numbers with me because as I keep saying, I only read the first storyline.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Archers in comics have long been able to be effective without killing, Roy included. And it doesn't matter if its "Pragmatic". It's still killing. And while I've got no problem with Jason or Kory doing this, it actually fits their characters,  it doesn't fit Roy at all.


It does fit N52 Roy.






> Because removing one of the things that makes a character unique so you can do something far less interesting is a good thing?


It wasn't removed.






> You talking about Roy or Lobdell? Cause if its the latter, that just raises one of the problems with the Nu52 as a whole: Erasing years of character growth and development so writers can evolve characters in new ways...that were almost never even close to being as good as the original.


Lobdell. And whether  the character being good or not it comes down to subjectivity.  Personally I loved N52 Roy whereas I couldn't care less for old Roy.






> Exactly and that's the problem. I don't know how Lobdell retold the story and *I really don't care* (That version's not even canon anymore) Ollie is an arrogant ass who had no idea what he was doing as a guardian and is completely at fault. (And again, there's not point in citing issue numbers with me because as I keep saying, I only read the first storyline.)


Then you aren't in position to discuss nor complain about it.

----------


## Aahz

> Because removing one of the things that makes a character unique so you can do something far less interesting is a good thing?


Appart from Devlin Graysons Run, his Navajo heritage was iirc never really a big part of his characterisation (NIGHTWING: OLD FRIENDS, NEW ENEMIES he iirc even tried to reconnect with his Irish heritage).

And I'm not sure if Lobdell really removed it, or just didn't brought it up. And I think in Tynions run it was actually referenced.

----------


## EMarie

Roy greets Kori by speaking Navajo during the DOTF tie in stuff.

----------


## Aioros22

Interesting that the current arc will start in the snow and Soy keeps doing the snow Hood ninja.. :Cool: 

Loedbell didn`t erase Roy`s Navajo background, he just seldom used it. Yes, he was the "bro" trope to Jason, think about it in these terms, Roy was the Riggs to Jason`s Murtaugh, except both being crazier dudes in general. Yes it feels like regressing the character back to when he was a teenager compared to his history Pre Flashpoint...which is exactly what they did. They brought him back to the point where he was kicking off his addiction and then joined up with Jason so essentially the main event that shaped him into maturity never came to fruiton. They basically cut any ties to his former characterization to the actual character assasination ( I love Robinson and I have no idea if it was mandated or not but CFJ is by far the stink to a good to great writting career). 

I totally get to whoever followed the character since New Teen Titans to feel a lot is missing and he was acting more like his reckless younger self but that`s just it, he effectively became younger with the reboot.

----------


## Assam

> Apart from Devlin Graysons Run, his Navajo heritage was iirc never really a big part of his characterisation


That's sort of like saying that apart from Wolfman's run, Dick's relationship with Kory wasn't important to his character. Technically true, but at the same time, there's a reason certain runs are pointed to for specific characters and dynamics. And I'm far from alone in thinking Devin Grayson wrote Roy better than anyone else. 




> ( I love Robinson and I have no idea if it was mandated or not but CFJ is by far the stink to a good to great writting career).


There were a LOT of plans changed over the course of CfJ's production...one of which by Robinson's own decision. From what I understand, the absolute mess that was the first 6 issues was caused by editorial squabbling and delays. Somewhere along the line though, once it was clear the book was just going to be a mini as opposed to a new ongoing, it was decided to be used to shake up the GA Family. And so for the last issue, editorial wanted Robinson to kill Mia. He refused...and compromised by saying he'd kill Lian instead. 

Honestly, learning that just made it 1,000 times worse.  :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> That's sort of like saying that apart from Wolfman's run, Dick's relationship with Kory wasn't important to his character. Technically true, but at the same time, there's a reason certain runs are pointed to for specific characters and dynamics. And I'm far from alone in thinking Devin Grayson wrote Roy better than anyone else.


Which is in case of Kory also (mostly) true. Outside of the Titans Franchise (and especially in Dicks solo series) she isn't really that important opposed to his relation with Barbara that came up much more in the last ~20 years.


And honestly nowadays a white writer writing "white Navajo" could massively backfire.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I remember that when the news of Priest moving to Justice League came out, some people in that thread mentioned that he's not very interested in Batfam stories. I don't know if it's really true though


I think Jason is more unique than most of the Bat Family to attract writers who aren't fond of writing Bat Titles.

----------


## SpentShrimp

As much as I like Soy's art, I'm not a fan of how he draws Jason's face and hair. Besides Jim Lee, I haven't really seen anyone land the look for Jason from the neck up.

----------


## Aioros22

Jim Lee only drew him for one issue and a half during "Hush".

Might be his rendition clicked that well for some but as far as setting a memorable look, I think artwork under the pencils of the likes of Doug Mahnke, Rocafort, Alisson Borges and Soy did more to it. I do like Lee`s take and gawd knows I like the white streak but I don`t necessarily see his face when I instantly picture Jason. 

If I had to choose I`d say I picture the face he has in AK`s game model. Funny how different fans picture him differently.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Soy is on fire today. Set the work in progress.


That's awesome. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## G-Potion

> As much as I like Soy's art, I'm not a fan of how he draws Jason's face and hair. Besides Jim Lee, I haven't really seen anyone land the look for Jason from the neck up.


I think Soy makes Jason look more his age. Same with Rocafort.

I think Lost Days nailed the even younger Jason look as well.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jim Lee only drew him for one issue and a half during "Hush".
> 
> Might be his rendition clicked that well for some but as far as setting a memorable look, I think artwork under the pencils of the likes of Doug Mahnke, Rocafort, Alisson Borges and Soy did more to it. I do like Lee`s take and gawd knows I like the white streak but I don`t necessarily see his face when I instantly picture Jason. 
> 
> If I had to choose I`d say I picture the face he has in AK`s game model. Funny how different fans picture him differently.


I loved Lee's rendition because it still had that street punk look, but with a more mature age. Almost like a gruffer 50's or 60's spy.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I think Soy makes Jason look more his age. Same with Rocafort.
> 
> I think Lost Days nailed the even younger Jason look as well.


He looks way too baby face for me at times. Almost like a pop-punk band front man.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He looks way too baby face for me at times. Almost like a pop-punk band front man.


Jason is 20 at most.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason is 20 at most.


And with Tim beeing only 16, Jason should actually be only 17 or 18.

----------


## RedBird

Run. 
Another one by Lady-Yen-Bug

----------


## RedBird

Well the final Trinity was out. I have no idea why the blurb on that read something like 'Red hood and the outlaws save the day?'

You know, giving the impression that their success was an accident or something, weird wording.

*spoilers:*
they literally DO show up to help, a pretty nice entrance all in all, some bullcrap deus ex machina solutions occur with Bruce because of course he always has a device to help save the day, everyone fights against Circe and then alls well that ends well, with a strangely abrupt ending. Like literally in the middle of a resolution kinda ending, that I THINK it was trying to amplify the whole 'working together' gets stuff done aspect of this story. 

So yeah, pretty damn bland. Very comic booky honestly. I'm just dissapointed because in the right hands, this could of at least had some kind of emotional impact in between the action? Then again, theres barely any character interaction, let alone emotional beats in the story, just felt like a bunch of randos teaming up together to beat a big baddy.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

*spoilers:*
Oh GOD, I just realised now that Jason has died twice the dead jokes will only double, God help us all. :P
*end of spoilers*

----------


## kiwiliko

> *spoilers:*
> Oh GOD, I just realised now that Jason has died twice the dead jokes will only double, God help us all. :P
> *end of spoilers*


Well the rules of sibling rivalry still apply. One must aim to beat his brothers and sister at anything he can and Jason is absolutely extra enough for that anything to be number of deaths. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Well the rules of sibling rivalry still apply. One must aim to beat his brothers and sister at anything he can and Jason is absolutely extra enough for that anything to be number of deaths.


Oh god the drama

*spoilers:*
We've ALL died Jason. You're not special!

Uh, yeah. But have ya died twice? No? Then shutup!
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

> And with Tim beeing only 16, Jason should actually be only 17 or 18.


Jason works best being a tad older than Tim. It`s just writers translating his seniority over.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh god the drama 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> We've ALL died Jason. You're not special!
> 
> Uh, yeah. But have ya died twice? By the Joker AND Batman? No? Then shutup!
> *end of spoilers*


10char edit  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Well the final Trinity was out. I have no idea why the blurb on that read something like 'Red hood and the outlaws save the day?'
> 
> You know, giving the impression that their success was an accident or something, weird wording.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> they literally DO show up to help, a pretty nice entrance all in all, some bullcrap deus ex machina solutions occur with Bruce because of course he always has a device to help save the day, everyone fights against Circe and then alls well that ends well, with a strangely abrupt ending. Like literally in the middle of a resolution kinda ending, that I THINK it was trying to amplify the whole 'working together' gets stuff done aspect of this story. 
> 
> So yeah, pretty damn bland. Very comic booky honestly. I'm just dissapointed because in the right hands, this could of at least had some kind of emotional impact in between the action? Then again, theres barely any character interaction, let alone emotional beats in the story, just felt like a bunch of randos teaming up together to beat a big baddy.
> *end of spoilers*


Agreed. Standard superhero writting as you get, not a compeeling enough crossover for a "first time ever". A shame. 

There were some nice moments/feats but between the cliché villains (Circe`s idea was engaging at least, Ras was ordinary as it gets), the writer simply not getting Bizarro at all and (lol) Bruce pulling a Deus Ex Machina out of his literal ass for every problem in the book and the astounding lack of character interactions across the board (what do the Leaguers even think of the Outlaws? What does Constantine who is seen as a "anti" thinks of the Outlaws? You wouldn`t know because aside the action and science vs magic exposition, there`s nothing. Not something I`m waiting to collect.  

A case of could be worse but oh, could have been so much better.

----------


## RedBird

> 10char edit


Thats dark man, but ACTUALLY!!!!

I just realised something

spoilers for The batman that laughs

*spoilers:*
As a jokerised Bruce Wayne, Batman kills Dick, Babs, Jason and Tim at once. So they did in fact die from both joker and batman.
*end of spoilers*

God comics are weird.

----------


## Aioros22

Whahahah you didn`t even let us have that DC. 


Oh, I forgot a classic. 

*spoilers:*
"The last time you inspired people...*I* killed you.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

spoilers for The batman that laughs

*spoilers:*
Welp, the one fun bit in the macabre scene of Bruce shooting them all like tomato soup is Jason actually not only being able to shoot back, he`s the only one who even draws back at Bruce. Classic Jason, always extra suspicious.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> spoilers for The batman that laughs
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Welp, the one fun bit in the macabre scene of Bruce shooting them all like tomato soup is Jason actually not only being able to shoot back, he`s the only one who even draws back at Bruce. Classic Jason, always extra suspicious.
> *end of spoilers*


Damn do I want to read just for this?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s can be easy to miss because it`s all in the same tomato soup panel, but do read it. This is a cabal of one shots of Batmen losing their marbles and becoming their worst nigthmare, standard rules are out, so it does what it aims to do. 

I`m thinking Sauron is the actual mastermind behind Metal, not Barbathos.

----------


## RedBird

Yo Aioros22 since you have read it, care to explain one thing I may have overlooked

*spoilers:*
where the hell did the four pants less robins come from? I was kinda hoping for some kind of throwaway line at least explaining who they are meant to be. Are they those robots shown in the beginning? You know, the one dressed like robin? Or are they really just a meta cheap joke about Batman managing to find some rando kids and they all happen to look alike. Kinda disappointing.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yo Aioros22 since you have read it, care to explain one thing I may have overlooked
> 
> *spoilers:*
> where the hell did the four pants less robins come from? I was kinda hoping for some kind of throwaway line at least explaining who they are meant to be. Are they those robots shown in the beginning? You know, the one dressed like robin? Or are they really just a meta cheap joke about Batman managing to find some rando kids and they all happen to look alike. Kinda disappointing.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I think it's been shown that there's actually more of them. There was a panel with Damian and dozens of them. So they don't even correspond to the Robins, really. You have the cheap joke of them saying "crow," and "bar" being like a stop word for them, but beyond that, it's like they're just little monsters. Perhaps clones? I don't think they've been explained, but I haven't read every issue.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> *spoilers:*
> I think it's been shown that there's actually more of them. There was a panel with Damian and dozens of them. So they don't even correspond to the Robins, really. You have the cheap joke of them saying "crow," and "bar" being like a stop word for them, but beyond that, it's like they're just little monsters. Perhaps clones? I don't think they've been explained, but I haven't read every issue.
> *end of spoilers*


They are 

*spoilers:*
the kids that were jokerized at the start of the issue. 
*end of spoilers*

Trinity was just a whole bunch of nothing while the Batman that Laughs is the epitome of 90's edginess. And isn't even the fun, self aware one. Pretty art but nothing more.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> They are 
> 
> *spoilers:*
> the kids that were jokerized at the start of the issue. 
> *end of spoilers*


I just have to roll my eyes at this point.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy's having fun.

It's moving.. a bit.

----------


## Alycat

> Damn do I want to read just for this?


You should read it cause the whole thing is hilarious.

----------


## kiwiliko

> You should read it cause the whole thing is hilarious.


Sad hilarious or comedy hilarious or a bit of both?

----------


## Aioros22

More art panels from Soy about the current arc:

----------


## Aioros22

Man, I want Wet Wet!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Sad hilarious or comedy hilarious or a bit of both?


It depends how much you enjoy over the top violence and edge to show how eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil a character is.

----------


## Aioros22

> Sad hilarious or comedy hilarious or a bit of both?


Neither, it`s pretty straighforward. 

My two cents, but just because everybody gets kilt, it doesn`t mean the story is on hilarious default mode. that`s the basic premise of these Nigthmare Batmen. I think the better ones are Sauron here (but not the best, I sort of feel they chickened out on the "robins" thing but that may not necessarily be a bad thing) the Murder Machine (the scariest and best written one, IMO), Red Death and the Drowned. 

The rest were sort of meh to me although Merciless isn`t half bad.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jason is 20 at most.


Then why does he look 16?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> And with Tim beeing only 16, Jason should actually be only 17 or 18.


I think Tim is older since he got accepted into college. And Jason is over 21 hence him going to bars out of uniform.

----------


## EMarie

Tim going to college doesn't automatically make him older. Before Damian took over TT they had a funeral like issue for Tim. They told stories about him like when Tim told Bunker that he was going to his high school reunion because he graduated way early.

Jason going to bars in meaningless as he could get fake IDs.

----------


## Aioros22

> Then why does he look 16?


He looks about right for the age to me...

----------


## dietrich

> Oh god the drama
> 
> *spoilers:*
> We've ALL died Jason. You're not special!
> 
> Uh, yeah. But have ya died twice? No? Then shutup!
> *end of spoilers*


To which Damian replies *spoilers:*
"tt I have Todd. Years before I hit puberty" 
*end of spoilers*  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Oh god the drama
> 
> *spoilers:*
> We've ALL died Jason. You're not special!
> 
> Uh, yeah. But have ya died twice? No? Then shutup!
> *end of spoilers*


I mean, Cass _has_ died twice. This is just Jason playing catch up.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Tim going to college doesn't automatically make him older. Before Damian took over TT they had a funeral like issue for Tim. They told stories about him like when Tim told Bunker that he was going to his high school reunion because he graduated way early.
> 
> Jason going to bars in meaningless as he could get fake IDs.


Eh. I don't think time is younger than 17. Plus, Rebirth has pretty much done away with N52 Teen Titans. And yes, Jason may have a fake ID, but he was at least 19 or so when N52 RHatO started, and it's been more than a few years since then.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> He looks about right for the age to me...


He looks extremely young in the face.

----------


## Aahz

> Eh. I don't think time is younger than 17. Plus, Rebirth has pretty much done away with N52 Teen Titans. And yes, Jason may have a fake ID, but he was at least 19 or so when N52 RHatO started, and it's been more than a few years since then.


Tim was said to be 16 post rebirth (Detective Comics #937).

----------


## kiwiliko

> I mean, Cass _has_ died twice. This is just Jason playing catch up.


I propose the formation of a dead Batkids club for the purpose of poking at the fakers *coughTimDickBrucecough*

----------


## RedBird

> I propose the formation of a dead Batkids club for the purpose of poking at the fakers *coughTimDickBrucecough*


oohh if it really does come down to Jason, Cass and Damian, then its actually the 'Assassin trio' who have that in common. (at least in terms of batkids).

As far as I know these are the three kids that all trained to become assassins, willingly or not.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think Tim is older since he got accepted into college. And Jason is over 21 hence him going to bars out of uniform.


We know that Dick is 21 and Tim is 16. Jason simply can't be older than Dick

----------


## G-Potion

> He looks extremely young in the face.


You could say it's the regeneration power of the Pit.  :Stick Out Tongue:  But seriously though, he doesn't look as young for his age as he looked old pre N52.

----------


## Aahz

> I propose the formation of a dead Batkids club for the purpose of poking at the fakers *coughTimDickBrucecough*


Dick died during Forever evil, he was just directly reanimated, if you don't count that at least one of Jasons's and Cass' death would also not count. And Bruce died during JLA:Obsidian Age and if I understand it correctly also during Endgame.

And for some reason everybody seems to forget that Alfred was actually the first Batfamily member who died and came back, and that Bruce still had an other adopted son who died and never came back.

----------


## Assam

> I propose the formation of a dead Batkids club for the purpose of poking at the fakers *coughTimDickBrucecough*


The 'Dead Robins Club" or some variant is actually pretty common in BatFam fanfics (At least ones written by people who have actually read the comics.) Damian and Jason are members, Cass is usually an honorary member, and depending on the writer, Steph is either just part of the main club or she's excluded as they poke fun at how nonsensical the retcon was (My favorite line in this regard is probably, "Oh come on! I was a ghost and everything!"  And yes, Dick, Bruce and (recently) Tim are made fun of for faking in some of these. I've only seen one personally where Dick actually dying for a second is addressed. 




> oohh if it really does come down to Jason, Cass and Damian, then its actually the 'Assassin trio' who have that in common. (at least in terms of batkids).
> 
> As far as I know these are the three kids that all trained to become assassins, willingly or not.


The even weirder part as I've pointed out before is that all 3 died directly because of the actions of their moms.

----------


## Aioros22

Someone needs to touch upon those similarities, C`mon. 

Mother`s day must be a field with these kids.

----------


## RedBird

> Someone needs to touch upon those similarities, C`mon. 
> 
> Mother`s day must be a field with these kids.


Like fathers day wasnt bad enough :P

----------


## Aioros22

> He looks extremely young in the face.


20 is young. You`re just not legally a teenager anymore but some 20`s looks like they could easily pass as 18. Especially when they shave  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> Like fathers day wasnt bad enough :P






Sorry, not sorry.

----------


## Aioros22

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/




https://ahongkc.tumblr.com/


Future Tims (Tomorrow and Future End) and Future Jason (Tomorrow/Batwoman).

----------


## Aioros22

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Moar RobinJay and Discowing glorious!

https://kuromameo.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

This one is for you Assam. 

https://dina-lani.tumblr.com/

----------


## Assam

> This one is for you Assam.


You know I lurked around here for awhile before joining the forum. There _used_ to be other regularly active Cass stans  :Stick Out Tongue:  

There are obviously still other users who favor her but they're not usually on 

Still, appreciated.  :Smile:  I saw this on Tumblr and it looks great. I've actually only noticed recently how much overlap there is between Cass and Jason fans. There's tons of fanart and fiction with her and all the boys, but I always just assumed the majority of Cass fans had Tim as their favorite Robin since he was _her_ Robin, but these past few months, I've noticed a ton of people online saying Jason and Cass are their faves.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> This one is for you Assam. 
> 
> https://dina-lani.tumblr.com/


Let these two interact!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> We know that Dick is 21 and Tim is 16. Jason simply can't be older than Dick


Dick is only 21?! How old is Bruce?

----------


## Aahz

> Dick is only 21?! How old is Bruce?


Pre rebirth he was said to be 32. And yes that doesn't make much sense.

----------


## Assam

> Dick is only 21?! How old is Bruce?





> Pre rebirth he was said to be 32.


Based on various things said in Rebirth so far (Which I can't cite unfortunately but do remember seeing in-story) I'm under the impression that Dick is mid 20's and Bruce is mid-late 30's.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Based on various things said in Rebirth so far (Which I can't cite unfortunately but do remember seeing in-story) I'm under the impression that Dick is mid 20's and Bruce is mid-late 30's.

----------


## Assam

Yes, and with Rebirth, many things have changed without explanation. Nothing from anything prior to Rebirth is explicitly canon unless otherwise stated.

----------


## Aahz

That panel is pre rebirth. In rebirth we got iirc only Tim's age (16) and Damian's age (13).

----------


## SpentShrimp

> That panel is pre rebirth. In rebirth we got iirc only Tim's age (16) and Damian's age (13).


Which is why I speculate that Jason is older than 20.

----------


## dietrich

> I propose the formation of a dead Batkids club for the purpose of poking at the fakers *coughTimDickBrucecough*


I second that. Dead Batkids or Assassins trio it's all good.

----------


## Assam

> Which is why I speculate that Jason is older than 20.


I personally wouldn't like that. I know Jay can't be _as_  young as them, but I'd still prefer him to be closer in age to Cass and Tim than Dick. 




> I second that. Dead Batkids or Assassins trio it's all good.


Step 1: These characters have to actually be in the same room together...which will technically happen in Batman and the Signal so I guess we can check that off. 
Step 2: Exchanging a line of dialogue...yeah that's not happening anytime soon.  :Frown:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I personally wouldn't like that. I know Jay can't be _as_  young as them, but I'd still prefer him to be closer in age to Cass and Tim than Dick.


That's not to say that Tim is younger than he should be. I'd say Jason, Cass, Tim, and Steph are younger than they should be.

----------


## Aahz

> Which is why I speculate that Jason is older than 20.


But Jason being older than 20 when Tim is just 16 doesn't make much sense.

If you really go by the original comics you end up with Jason being around a year older than Tim, and it is my opinion actually easier to make (based on the comics from the 80s) an argument for Jason and Tim being the same age than for Jason being 2 years older like he was made in the late 2000s.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes, and with Rebirth, many things have changed without explanation. Nothing from anything prior to Rebirth is explicitly canon unless otherwise stated.


You mean, besides the current Nightwing series explicitly referencing all the events of Grayson multiple times?

----------


## Barbatos666

> You mean, besides the current Nightwing series explicitly referencing all the events of Grayson multiple times?


Or Super Sons and Superman directly referencing the events of Robin Rises.

----------


## Rise

Pretty much every Rebirth book I have read referred to stuff from N52.

And the discussion about Jason's age, he is definitely young and looks his age which is better than in pre-flashpoint where he looked sometimes even older than Bruce.

----------


## Assam

> You mean, besides the current Nightwing series explicitly referencing all the events of Grayson multiple times?





> Or Super Sons and Superman directly referencing the events of Robin Rises.


Yes, those events have been mentioned and are therefor canon. But it's like the Nu52, where just because something happened doesn't mean it played out _exactly_  the way you remember it. Ex. Simon Baz only having gotten his GL ring a few _weeks_ before Jessica as of Rebirth.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Eh. I don't think time is younger than 17. Plus, Rebirth has pretty much done away with N52 Teen Titans. And yes, Jason may have a fake ID, but he was at least 19 or so when N52 RHatO started, and it's been more than a few years since then.


I mean...there's no "may" about it because Jason Todd is legally dead. Any ID he has is fake.

----------


## Aahz

So I had finally time to read Trinity.

This story should have real had some kind of aftermath with some character intaeraction between Outlaws and Trinity, and Jason should imo have really used the All-Blades in the final fight.

Appart from this Batmans solution to the possession was really a little strange. What he did with Jason probably worked, but how did he kill Bizzaro? And a beam that can easily kill Superman and Wonder Woman seems a little strange, I  mean why did Luthor never build one of those? And I honestly doubt that this beam could have worked on Deadman.

----------


## Aahz

> Yes, and with Rebirth, many things have changed without explanation. Nothing from anything prior to Rebirth is explicitly canon unless otherwise stated.


To me it looks more like everything that is not contradicted by Rebirth is still considered canon. And at least of the books I read at the moment Deathstroke seems to be the only one where pre-Rebirth was completely wiped out.

----------


## dietrich

> I personally wouldn't like that. I know Jay can't be _as_  young as them, but I'd still prefer him to be closer in age to Cass and Tim than Dick. 
> 
> 
> 
> Step 1: These characters have to actually be in the same room together...which will technically happen in Batman and the Signal so I guess we can check that off. 
> Step 2: Exchanging a line of dialogue...yeah that's not happening anytime soon.


Sadly DC doesn't seem to have any interest in making the family A FAMILY at his point which is disappointing. Each writer and each title seem to have their own version of the family. And they are all wrong.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes, those events have been mentioned and are therefor canon. But it's like the Nu52, where just because something happened doesn't mean it played out _exactly_  the way you remember it. Ex. Simon Baz only having gotten his GL ring a few _weeks_ before Jessica as of Rebirth.


Moving the goalposts are we? You mention the N52 so you should be perfectly aware that unless something is explicitly shown to be changed, it remains the same as it was the last time it was shown. And even then, you have writers that Lobdell that like to keep everything canon despite that (Jason stealing drugs from Leslie)

----------


## Assam

> Sadly DC doesn't seem to have any interest in making the family A FAMILY at his point which is disappointing. Each writer and each title seem to have their own version of the family. And they are all wrong.


We currently have a BatFamily where Dick likely wouldn't act out all the parts of Cinderella for Cass, Dick and Tim barely know each other, Barbara doesn't interact with anyone but Dick, Cass probably isn't stealing all of Tim's cereal, and really, half these people don't know each other _at all._ 

Just...just so wrong.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Moving the goalposts are we? You mention the N52 so you should be perfectly aware that unless something is explicitly shown to be changed, it remains the same as it was the last time it was shown. And even then, you have writers that Lobdell that like to keep everything canon despite that (Jason stealing drugs from Leslie)


Yep. That's exactly how I treat it as well. Unless I see something on the page that references a change I consider everything to remain canon until told otherwise in story. I don't even consider a writer saying something is changed in an interview to be official unless the change they speak of in an interview also appears within the pages of the book itself, mainly because plans do change and editorial most of the time has final say on things like that anyway. 

Dick was said to be 21 in _Grayson_ and the events in _Grayson_ are still canon as per events in Seeley's _Nightwing_ so one can assume from that that his age either remains the same now or that he might have aged another year or possible two if you take into account that Damian's age jumped from 10 or maybe 11 in the N52 to 13 in Rebirth. (Not sure when the last time Damian's age was mentioned so I could be off there. Last I remember he was 10 (again).) My best guess as far as ages are concerned is that everyone is _at least_ a year older then previous mentioned in the N52 and that they might be as much as two years older then last time ages were mentioned.

Also as an aside I'm really enjoying all the fan art you guys are posting too and I'm enjoying Soy's art that's been posted as well.

----------


## RedBird

More Jason from Bombshells United #13
The sleeping picture is really cute  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

Basically a retread of what we already know, which makes me suspicious....

----------


## shadowsgirl

Father Todd and Sister Cassandra

----------


## shadowsgirl

Father Todd and Catlad



Father Todd and vampire Tim

----------


## dietrich

> Father Todd and Catlad
> 
> 
> 
> Father Todd and vampire Tim




Tim looks like Cass in that top  and is he about to kiss Jason?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim looks like Cass in that top  and is he about to kiss Jason?


Yeah, I guess he wants to kiss Jason. Catlad Tim is fan creation, so the shippers often draw him in slash situations. Although they often draw canon Tim in slash situations, too.

----------


## G-Potion

> Basically a retread of what we already know, which makes me suspicious....


Ooh is this the issue where Talia makes an appearance?

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/stephny_

Moody MatthewDaddario as JasonTodd in Simon Stalenhag's style.

----------


## G-Potion

https://cera-tay.deviantart.com

----------


## RedBird

> Ooh is this the issue where Talia makes an appearance?


No unfortunately. I think she may appear in the next issue since she is on the cover, but I'm not sure if she is meant to make a big presence in the book since Black Adam is apparently the antagonist in this Spain arc. Like I said, it may be a retread of info for the sake of catching the audience up, nothing more.


One more sad Batmom and cute Robin symbolism for the road.

----------


## RedBird

And why not some 'Sad big brother' art while were at it. YJ Dick and Hologram Jason.



[jjmk-jjmk]

----------


## G-Potion

> No unfortunately. I think she may appear in the next issue since she is on the cover, but I'm not sure if she is meant to make a big presence in the book since Black Adam is apparently the antagonist in this Spain arc. Like I said, it may be a retread of info for the sake of catching the audience up, nothing more.
> 
> One more sad Batmom and cute Robin symbolism for the road.


Would be a shame. I wish there's more use of Jason than just dead robin in every alternate universe.

----------


## G-Potion

Current Hiya toys poll status aaaa

----------


## Aioros22

There`s fair and there`s Jason Todd. 

Is DC even mentioning or showing this this on their own website?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Father Todd and Catlad
> 
> 
> 
> Father Todd and vampire Tim


Uhhhhh. Noooooooooo.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Father Todd and Catlad


Correct me if I'm wrong but that looks a lot like Talon's costume. The goggles say Catlad but the arm brace looks like owl.

----------


## G-Potion

> There`s fair and there`s Jason Todd. 
> 
> Is DC even mentioning or showing this this on their own website?


Don't think so or the voting pool would be much bigger. 
In other news, half of the responses towards InjusticeMobile's Hellboy challenge are basically 'Don't care where's my Red Hood!!!' lol

----------


## G-Potion

> Correct me if I'm wrong but that looks a lot like Talon's costume. The goggles say Catlad but the arm brace looks like owl.


Definitely Talon's costume.

----------


## Aahz

Seems that the Qurac-Retcon is not a completly new thing, this is from JLA#83 (2003) but I have to add that this is happening in something like a Dream.

JLA #83 (2003).jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Nice find!  :EEK!:

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_o76g8zJGKN1skf43ko3_400.jpg
Transition

----------


## TheCape

An article about Jason's charactherization as Robin from Pre to Post Crisis in his short span of existence.
http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/12529...todd-pre-death

----------


## Assam

> An article about Jason's charactherization as Robin from Pre to Post Crisis in his short span of existence.
> http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/12529...todd-pre-death


I think a serious case can be made for Rena being the best comic blogger on Tumblr. She's amazing. 

She recently deleted a lot of her content, but she's made it clear where she stands on Jason a few times. She LOVES RobinJay, as far as Robins go he only falls behind Dick and Tim (Who are two of her favorite characters in general) for her, but she's never liked Red Hood, preferring Steph and Damian over him. Although, recent posts show that, like with me, Rebirth may finally be getting her to actually like Red HoodJay.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I think a serious case can be made for Rena being the best comic blogger on Tumblr. She's amazing. 
> 
> She recently deleted a lot of her content, but she's made it clear where she stands on Jason a few times. She LOVES RobinJay, as far as Robins go he only falls behind Dick and Tim (Who are two of her favorite characters in general) for her, but she's never liked Red Hood, preferring Steph and Damian over him. Although, recent posts show that, like with me, Rebirth may finally be getting her to actually like Red HoodJay.


Ohhh this looks like a good read for a rainy day.

----------


## kiwiliko

Can't find where the source is screenshotted from but Happy Valentines to all you Jaytemis shippers

----------


## TheCape

That would be either more teases or a ship sinking  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

> Ohhh this looks like a good read for a rainy day.


It is, i don't agree with everything that she say, but is a pretty fun blog.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Can't find where the source is screenshotted from but Happy Valentines to all you Jaytemis shippers


Here - http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...1/20/dcfeb.htm

redhood19.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jajajaja, is even out in Valentine's!

Pity isn't Soy drawing though.

----------


## RedBird

> Jajajaja, is even out in Valentine's!
> 
> Pity isn't Soy drawing though.


True, but I mean Marcio Takara certainly aint a bad choice. Coulda been worse.

Plus we have seen a preview of his work through that commission piece few months back. That was pretty nice too.

----------


## Assam

> True, but I mean Marcio Takara certainly aint a bad choice. Coulda been worse


When he's given enough time, he's absolutely brilliant.

----------


## G-Potion

> That would be either more teases or a ship sinking


Too soon either way.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Sounds like a date



Da mouth strikes again. Great scene and Bizarro tho.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Basically a retread of what we already know, which makes me suspicious....


The whole scene there from the start of Kate's story to the end is very reminiscent of Les Miserables or at least that was what immediately came to my mind when I read it. That it's Jason there made it even more poignant to me. (Damn all those fanfictions where Jay is a literature nerd  :Stick Out Tongue:  )

----------


## SpentShrimp

I got really giddy when I saw the solicit.

----------


## magpieM

A date? Soy's "She would" panel might be about this

----------


## Jovos2099

A lot of people on Tumblr seem to not like the jaytemis ship u wonder why I like it for the same reasons I like wondertrev wonderbat and one of my all own all time favorite dc super couples barda and Scott.

----------


## Savatewolf

> A lot of people on Tumblr seem to not like the jaytemis ship u wonder why I like it for the same reasons I like wondertrev wonderbat and one of my all own all time favorite dc super couples barda and Scott.


Because people see Artemis as a lesbian even though she's never been stated as such, and see Jason as gay even though he's never been interested in men

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Because people see Artemis as a lesbian even though she's never been stated as such, and see Jason as gay even though he's never been interested in men


Tumblr is not a place to go to learn about comic book characters.

----------


## EMarie

> Because people see Artemis as a lesbian even though she's never been stated as such, and see Jason as gay even though he's never been interested in men


Some also think he's asexual despite comics showing otherwise. I think Lobdell confirmed Artemis is bisexual although a lot of people on tumblr ignore it. Her creator literally wrote her having a sex dream of a guy she liked so it's not like her being attracted to a guy is new.

----------


## TheCape

> Tumblr is not a place to go to learn about comic book characters.


For real, do not take tumblr too seriously when.it comes to the batfamily, specially the Robins.

----------


## TheCape

> Some also think he's asexual despite comics showing otherwise. I think Lobdell confirmed Artemis is bisexual although a lot of people on tumblr ignore it. Her creator literally wrote her having a sex dream of a guy she liked so it's not like her being attracted to a guy is new


Even if Jason is asexual (wich he isn't) that doesn't close the possibility of a romantic relationship, it would just have a lot less kissing or any kind of physical affection.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> For real, do not take tumblr too seriously when.it comes to the batfamily, specially the Robins.


Things get a bit weird when you venture down that road.

----------


## magpieM

"... a surprise visit to the Batcave!" 
Sounds like Artemis will be formally introduced to whomever in the cave at that time.

I just hope they keep bantering each other in the future. Can't have enough of it.

----------


## Aioros22

> The whole scene there from the start of Kate's story to the end is very reminiscent of Les Miserables or at least that was what immediately came to my mind when I read it. That it's Jason there made it even more poignant to me. (Damn all those fanfictions where Jay is a literature nerd  )


Fanfiction and actual comics, Jason* is* a literature nerd  :Cool:

----------


## Assam

> Fanfiction and actual comics, Jason* is* a literature nerd


Yup!

You know, some of my favorite things about characters are the things that sound like Tumblr headcanons, but are actually 100% canon.

----------


## Aioros22

> "... a surprise visit to the Batcave!" 
> Sounds like Artemis will be formally introduced to whomever in the cave at that time.
> 
> I just hope they keep bantering each other in the future. Can't have enough of it.


Boy presenting his bae to daddy-o. 

"I..not sure I approve son. Those Amazons are too unreliably wild!"

"More than snuff-fu at rooftops with a burgler in a cat suit?"

"..you`ve been hearing the GPD radio signal, _haven´t you_?"

"Yyup".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A date? Soy's "She would" panel might be about this


I doubt it since he's on a break after issue 17.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I doubt it since he's on a break after issue 17.


He may have been alluding to what will happen.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder how surprise this visit to the cave would be. I can't see Jason willingly bring Artemis there.

----------


## G-Potion

Bow down

----------


## EMarie

> I wonder how surprise this visit to the cave would be. I can't see Jason willingly bring Artemis there.


Maybe he gets brought there for injures and Artemis doesn't want to leave him alone with his family? Dropping off an early wedding gift? Or Bruce wants to check up on them after they got sent to Waller and hear their side of the story? Bruce and the others clue into the fact they interrupted a date, awkwardness and intimidation tactics are exchanged. Artemis remains unimpressed.

----------


## G-Potion

> Maybe he gets brought there for injures and Artemis doesn't want to leave him alone with his family? Dropping off an early wedding gift? Or Bruce wants to check up on them after they got sent to Waller and hear their side of the story? Bruce and the others clue into the fact they interrupted a date, awkwardness and intimidation tactics are exchanged. Artemis remains unimpressed.


I'm more uncomfortable with the involvement of the family. I'm gonna wait and see if Lobdell surprises me. For now it all sounds too trope-y.

----------


## EMarie

> I'm more uncomfortable with the involvement of the family. I'm gonna wait and see if Lobdell surprises me. For now it all sounds too trope-y.


In the series in general or this story? Actually the conflict with the DET team makes the most sense as Bruce set up the fact he could pull Jason out. It seems like something he'd want to get to the bottom of.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Fanfiction and actual comics, Jason* is* a literature nerd


True. Sometimes its hard to remember just what is canon and what is just something a fanfic writer made up. (I read way to much Jason Todd fanfic and too much fanfic in general.)

@ Assam- Me too my friend. Me too.

----------


## SomeCBFanboy

> Can't find where the source is screenshotted from but Happy Valentines to all you Jaytemis shippers


*Ahem*.....MAH SHIP IS SAILING!

----------


## Rise

> Here - http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...1/20/dcfeb.htm
> 
> Attachment 58064


I completely forget about the solicitations.

Bizarro arc is finally over, YES!!
Marcio Takara, double YES!!
Jason is going into his first date since Isabel, triple YES!! (I wonder if Lobdell is just trolling, tho. hehe)
I wonder what was Artemis' waring and if Biazzro is back to his old self.

Anyway, Feb looks like is going to be an interesting month.

----------


## Rise

> Bow down


I don't know what's going here, but I'm excited.

----------


## adrikito

I read the solicitation of february... Jason x Artemis, Finally.. Poor Bizarro, he will be alone.. 





> Tumblr is not a place to go to learn about comic book characters.


I saw that... The other day that make me angry with people making Damian gay, now that I want him with girls like Maya Ducard(since RSOB, I want him with her), Emiko, Raven, Rose... after heard about his FIRST CRUSH...

----------


## G-Potion

Since we're in a Jaytemis mood...

http://cichuliubai22.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://cichuliubai22.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://cichuliubai22.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> In the series in general or this story? Actually the conflict with the DET team makes the most sense as Bruce set up the fact he could pull Jason out. It seems like something he'd want to get to the bottom of.


Just this story. I'm not particularly fond of the 'bring your girl to meet the family' angle. Especially when King's Batman has been leaving bad taste in my mouth. Still mostly believe Lobdell won't go that predictable route though.

----------


## TheCape

Here is a joke from an user of youtube called Ian Mckee, that i thought it was funny (well half of the joke):




> Batman: " Ok Jason, lets go over to the med bay. Thats good. So, how are things with Artemis. Dick tells me shes suoer into you. Im ust saying, that I could use some grandkids pretty soon. Ever since my creepy clone army brainwashing program fell apart, I need a new source of future robins and spare parts. I mean crime fighters of the future." 
> Jason: "Poppa, me and Artemis arent a thing. Dick thinks shes into me? Groovy." 
> Bruce: "Ok, what about that flight attendant chick you took to space when you stormed Tameran with Starfire?" 
> Jason: "Well, we did have a pretty nice thing going for awhile, but that fell through. It was one of those if you ever stop being red hood, call me and we can bang things. 
> Bruce: "Ok, what about that All-Caste chick Essence? Wasnt she like your first love?" 
> Jason: "Yeah, but she has like god-like magic powers now that the rest of the Nameless are dead. Its just kind of intimidating, you know?" 
> Bruce: "Look, jason, I dont give out much fatherly advice other than which bones to break on 17yr old tv thieves, but let me tell you this. If you think you still have feelings for her, give it a shot. Getting over your insecurities is a small price to pay if she truly makes you happy in the future." 
> Jason: "Yout just want a generation of future robins who are immortal and have kick ass magic powers, dont you?" 
> Bruce: "..........I mean thatd be a significant bonus, obviously."﻿

----------


## G-Potion

> Here is a joke from an user of youtube called Ian Mckee, that i thought it was funny (well half of the joke):


I cracked at the last part. I approve of Essence too.   :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Batman Beyond #14 preview. Second mention of Jason in the (Post Flashpoint I guess?) Beyond Verse. 


[IMG]https://***********/www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/BatmanBeyond14_07.png?resize=668%2C1028[/IMG]

----------


## Alycat

* Finally looks at solicits*

Don't play with my heart Lobdell. I am excited for this!!!

----------


## SpentShrimp

I prefer the ship name "ArtiTodd"

----------


## EMarie

> Just this story. I'm not particularly fond of the 'bring your girl to meet the family' angle. Especially when King's Batman has been leaving bad taste in my mouth. Still mostly believe Lobdell won't go that predictable route though.


I trust Lobdell more with this than King. Even if it's predictable at least I'll like it better.

Everyone is saying Bizarro is lonely but if he wanted he could find the lady from the Annual.

The Cape: Now I'm picturing Bruce making charts and files on who his kids should date. Matchmaker Bruce putting together more events to pair people with his kids. Then looking at his watch and muttering under his breath that he wants his grandkids already.

----------


## TheCape

> The Cape: Now I'm picturing Bruce making charts and files on who his kids should date. Matchmaker Bruce putting together more events to pair people with his kids. Then looking at his watch and muttering under his breath that he wants his grandkids already.


Dick became lesser in Bruce's eyes after letting Starfire go, those half alien Robins would never come to be. He only adopted Tim because he knew that Steph was alive and wanted her as his daugther. He is still figuring what to with Damian and Cass (maybe Kon if he ever goes out of limbo) :Big Grin:

----------


## Savatewolf

> Dick became lesser in Bruce's eyes after letting Starfire go, those half alien Robins would never come to be. He only adopted Tim because he knew that Steph was alive and wanted her as his daugther. He is still figuring what to with Damian and Cass (maybe Kon if he ever goes out of limbo)


Eh I prefer Kon with Sandsmark over Cain

----------


## TheCape

> Eh I prefer Kon with Sandsmark over Cain


Me too, but Bruce migth not  :Smile:

----------


## EMarie

> Me too, but Bruce migth not


If I remember right he wasn't so keen on it. He might be overprotective of his daughter. But back to the potential meeting in the bat cave who do you want to meet her?

Dick already did but he might congratulate himself for calling it in the Annual. Bruce is a must meeting. I'm drawing a blank on how meeting Tim would go. I'd like Artemis to shut Damian down before he starts anything. Alfred would be fun too.

----------


## dietrich

> If I remember right he wasn't so keen on it. He might be overprotective of his daughter. But back to the potential meeting in the bat cave who do you want to meet her?
> 
> Dick already did but he might congratulate himself for calling it in the Annual. Bruce is a must meeting. I'm drawing a blank on how meeting Tim would go. I'd like Artemis to shut Damian down before he starts anything. Alfred would be fun too.


I'd rather Artemis shut him down After he starts something before would be odd however I doubt he would be there since he should be in San Francisco or Atlantis

----------


## TheCape

> If I remember right he wasn't so keen on it. He might be overprotective of his daughter. But back to the potential meeting in the bat cave who do you want to meet her?
> 
> Dick already did but he might congratulate himself for calling it in the Annual. Bruce is a must meeting. I'm drawing a blank on how meeting Tim would go. I'd like Artemis to shut Damian down before he starts anything. Alfred would be fun too.


Tim or Alfred, those are the ones that currently has a less baggage with Jason and get along with him better, so Artemis would remind him that he still has a home there. Also, i wonder hlwnshe would react to Alfred sass "Now i see when you got your sense of humor" :Smile: . Damian and Artemis could be fun too.

----------


## Assam

I'm not too hot on Jason and Artemis getting together, but at least it's not as bad as the possibility of Seeley putting Simon and Jessica together in Green Lanterns. 





> If I remember right he wasn't so keen on it.


To put it lightly...

Batdad.jpg




> Eh I prefer Kon with Sandsmark over Cain


I'm not too big a fan of either ship. With Cass it could have been nice but it never got to go anywhere, and with Cassie, while I loved the build up to them getting together, Johns' TT kinda soured me on the idea of them as a couple.

----------


## dietrich

What i'm curious about is if Bruce mention's the engagement because that plot thread is hanging.

----------


## EMarie

> I'd rather Artemis shut him down After he starts something before would be odd however I doubt he would be there since he should be in San Francisco or Atlantis


I meant before he got to the insulting stuff like if he's in the middle of saying an insulting word. Comic logic doesn't always place characters in different place according to their books. If that was true Bruce wouldn't be in so many titles.

Assam: Yep, I remembered Bruce freaking out over it. I have nothing against the pairing (Jason/Artemis) honestly it's better than many of the ones I've seen. It actually has hints before they decided to go out. Yeah, I always see GLs as cops so the possibility of dating your partner feels wrong.

----------


## G-Potion

Even as Robin, Arkham Jason looks so good.

----------


## Fergus

https://twitter.com/patrick_gleason/...68835359518720

So do you think he's going to be making an appearance in Outlaws? Wait how many Bizarro's are there?

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/patrick_gleason/...68835359518720
> 
> So do you think he's going to be making an appearance in Outlaws? Wait how many Bizarro's are there?


I don't think so, unfortunately.

----------


## RedBird

> Even as Robin, Arkham Jason looks so good.


Oh wow, thats a really clean version of the 3d model. And yeah man agreed. I remember being genuinely surprised at the quality and attention to detail in Jasons models. No offense to Rocksteady of course, I love their stuff but their male characters can look kinda creepy and 'rough' at times.


(also, any clue what that text in the images says btw?)

----------


## Kalethas31

> Even if Jason is asexual (wich he isn't) that doesn't close the possibility of a romantic relationship, it would just have a lot less kissing or any kind of physical affection.


only a person who does not know the character could think that
tumblr_m5lbo24wmV1qf25y1.jpg
RedHood-TheLostDays6019-660x1020.jpg
tumblr_m5xktgJDta1qjn5r4.jpg

isabel is so hot!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh wow, thats a really clean version of the 3d model. And yeah man agreed. I remember being genuinely surprised at the quality and attention to detail in Jasons models. No offense to Rocksteady of course, I love their stuff but their male characters can look kinda creepy and 'rough' at times.
> 
> 
> (also, any clue what that text in the images says btw?)


It goes a little something like this: 

"Look at you... maybe you should lie down for a bit."
"Isn't 'take care of our body' what you always preach? Try setting an example for once."
"Aha! You're doing the 'you make sense but I'm totally ignoring you' silence again."
"Sorry, am I on your mind?"
"Batman, is everything alright?"

*@Kiwiliko*: Help! I'm 50% guessing it. Correct me if anything's wrong.  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/patrick_gleason/...68835359518720
> 
> So do you think he's going to be making an appearance in Outlaws? Wait how many Bizarro's are there?


¿??  :Confused:  a Bizarro Kid..




> I don't think so, unfortunately.


Ok... Good..

----------


## G-Potion

> only a person who does not know the character could think that
> tumblr_m5lbo24wmV1qf25y1.jpg
> RedHood-TheLostDays6019-660x1020.jpg
> tumblr_m5xktgJDta1qjn5r4.jpg
> 
> isabel is so hot!!


Well knowing Tumblr, they disregard anything N52 so that leaves Talia, which usually leads to another topic more heated than Jason's sexuality.

----------


## kiwiliko

> It goes a little something like this: 
> 
> "Look at you... maybe you should lie down for a bit."
> "Isn't 'take care of our body' what you always preach? Try setting an example for once."
> "Aha! You're doing the 'you make sense but I'm totally ignoring you' silence again."
> "Sorry, am I on your mind?"
> "Batman, is everything alright?"
> 
> *@Kiwiliko*: Help! I'm 50% guessing it. Correct me if anything's wrong.


Dayum that's pretty on point looks like you beat me to it!
@G I've seen you do translation on Japanese too did you somehow learn all the 3 common languages used in fancomics? (korean/japanese/chinese)

----------


## G-Potion

> Dayum that's pretty on point looks like you beat me to it!
> @G I've seen you do translation on Japanese too did you somehow learn all the 3 common languages used in fancomics? (korean/japanese/chinese)


Nooo I'm not that crazy good haha. With extensive use of dictionary, I can do Japanese, _slowly_. Can read traditional Chinese (even more slowly) but can't speak. I've tried reading fics in Japanese. I haven't managed with Chinese fics yet. And I can't do Korean at all. 

But you can help me with this if you don't mind. That's a little too much text for me to handle and the fonts don't help at all.

By the way, I like the way Jason's name is translated into Chinese. The hanji fits him I think. 

http://cichuliubai22.lofter.com

----------


## EMarie

> Well knowing Tumblr, they disregard anything N52 so that leaves Talia, which usually leads to another topic more heated than Jason's sexuality.


Tumblr seems to ignore a lot when it comes to all members of the bat family. Most seem like they don't read the comics or skipped runs.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Nooo I'm not that crazy good haha. With extensive use of dictionary, I can do Japanese, _slowly_. Can read traditional Chinese (even more slowly) but can't speak. I've tried reading fics in Japanese. I haven't managed with Chinese fics yet. And I can't do Korean at all. 
> 
> But you can help me with this if you don't mind. That's a little too much text for me to handle and the fonts don't help at all.
> 
> By the way, I like the way Jason's name is translated into Chinese. The hanji fits him I think. 
> 
> http://cichuliubai22.lofter.com


I feel this, handwriting is a weakness of mine too but here goes a shot at it. Japanese and all 3 of it's alphabets are wild if you're gonna toss Chinese into that mix too that's pretty impressive  :Cool: 

Always appreciating lofter for their cool arts. I think this might be the artist who drew that Jason and Roy in the teacup? I love their cute style so much I tried out an Outlaws in teapot for potential charm ideas. 

Jason: *daydreaming

Bruce: "Even in the end, Jason knew how much I loved him, 
through his rebirth, my feelings of guilt for his death and the love I place on him. 
I will never forget Jason, he is a good soldier
I worry after Qurac but maybe if I could bring him home, I can finally accept what happened."

*Sees the other

*backs away

Bruce: "Jason you must stop, I can help you"

Jason: "You don't get to stop me, death keeps me walking down this road"

Bruce: "Jason!"

Jason: "You can't help me"

Bruce: "Jay..."

Jason: "Leave!"

...

Bruce: "Will I see you for dinner this Friday"

Jason: "...okay"

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.facebook.com/nefar007/ph...type=3&theater

----------


## Aioros22

http://quic.tumblr.com/

----------


## Assam

That is beautiful.

----------


## G-Potion

> Always appreciating lofter for their cool arts. I think this might be the artist who drew that Jason and Roy in the teacup? I love their cute style so much I tried out an Outlaws in teapot for potential charm ideas.


I have no idea. Still browsing through their blog but I haven't come across the teacup pic yet. And I'd love to see your teapot version!!




> Jason: *daydreaming
> 
> Bruce: "Even in the end, Jason knew how much I loved him, 
> through his rebirth, my feelings of guilt for his death and the love I place on him. 
> I will never forget Jason, he is a good soldier
> I worry after Qurac but maybe if I could bring him home, I can finally accept what happened."
> 
> *Sees the other
> 
> ...


Thanks for the translation! "Death keeps me walking down this road" LOL. These two are so hilariously dramatic haha.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.facebook.com/nefar007/ph...type=3&theater


Who is this guy? If that is a cleaned up Jason then _wow_. The hair suits him. But since the hair and eyebrows are not inked black, I guess it's not him.

----------


## G-Potion

> http://quic.tumblr.com/


Awww he's crying!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

> Who is this guy? If that is a cleaned up Jason then _wow_. The hair suits him. But since the hair and eyebrows are not inked black, I guess it's not him.


Not quite 'scowly' enough for Jason imo :P

Hmm, maybe its Roy? 

Or maybe even someone related to Artemis or her past?

----------


## G-Potion

> Not quite 'scowly' enough for Jason imo :P
> 
> Hmm, maybe its Roy? 
> 
> Or maybe even someone related to Artemis or her past?


Biggest pleasant surprise if it's Roy. How do you imagine conversations go between Jason and Roy if they meet again?

----------


## EMarie

I was thinking of Roy but I think his tattoos would still be a little visible.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not quite 'scowly' enough for Jason imo :P


This makes me think of Artemis and Jason's date where both of them have the romantically scowly faces.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> I was thinking of Roy but I think his tattoos would still be a little visible.


But if turns out to be Roy texting Jason while having a smile on his face here, I would be disappointed, to be honest. Don't want those hard feelings from RH/A to be swept under the rug.

----------


## RedBird

> Biggest pleasant surprise if it's Roy. How do you imagine conversations go between Jason and Roy if they meet again?


Regardless if thats Roy or not, I feel as though enough time has passed between their separation that its possible the two could be 'civil' with a reunion. Not that things will be forgotten but that they may be cast aside _at least at first_ because I still think the good times and memories they shared as friends could still outweigh the bitter way that they split.

I'm sure after the first 'how are yous' and 'im glad to see you're doing wells' things may become awkward with the rising tension and elephant in the room, to which I would like to see the outcome of addressed eventually. Lobdell has made it clear that Jasons friendship with Roy and Kory is still canon and intact, and I certainly dont want their relationships to be swept under the rug.

----------


## G-Potion

http://aying619.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://aying619.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

http://aspirinoverdose.tumblr.com/

----------


## Rac7d*

No one in DC screamed I loved women more to me then Artemis so how this happen i cant get, but I guess Jason needs his own Starfire,

----------


## Aioros22

The good ol`days

Art by Chris Samnee


This glorious panel is from Batman #415


And of course, from #401 another Sassy moment for prosperity!

----------


## RedBird

Lady-Yen-Bug

----------


## G-Potion

> No one in DC screamed I loved women more to me then Artemis so how this happen i cant get, but I guess Jason needs his own Starfire,


Lobdell already stated that Artemis doesn't see gender. While I'd prefer Jason and Artemis to have platonic relationship for a little longer, I don't have a problem with their sexuality.

----------


## Aioros22

> No one in DC screamed I loved women more *to me* then Artemis so how this happen i cant get, but I guess Jason needs his own Starfire,


Ah, that does tend to happen. 

Loedbell doesn`t write Artemis with just "a" type. She`s clearly had a female lover before but nothing indicates she`s only into women.

----------


## RedBird

> No one in DC screamed I loved women more to me then Artemis so how this happen i cant get, but I guess Jason needs his own Starfire,


She can still love women. Bisexuals dont stop being bisexuals when in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Pre52 Artemis did show a desire for men, and Lobdell already explained that for rebirth Artemis, gender is not an issue when it comes to love. 

I get not everyone is crash hot about 'Jaytemis', I have my own drawbacks about the ship but lets not imply that Artemis loving women means her love is exclusive to women, especially when her sexuality historically and even her current writer has shown otherwise.

I should note that since Lobdell has mentioned the lack of concern for gender. It may be that he is implying that Artemis is Pansexual rather than Bisexual, though in both cases it still wouldnt be an excuse to have her not be with a cis man instead of a woman, so my point remains the same.
 I just thought I'd clarify.

----------


## EMarie

Lobdell is keeping with her old canon with Artemis being bisexual. In her mini Artemis Requiem Diana went to rescue her after Artemis ended up among demons after she died and we got this:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3cMSTC9hE...0/scan0002.jpg

Later on she ends up having this dream about her teammate. Warning for sexual themes and Benes art which might not be safe for work although things are covered up.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iKc3pHkMl...0/scan0001.jpg

Edit: Maybe pansexual is a better term?

----------


## Aioros22

狩猎黄昏种 's Weibo_Weibo

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.pinterest.pt/pin/635500197391413749/ (No idea who the artist is, so if someone can get the name for full credit, please do)

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.pinterest.pt/source/micas.lofter.com/


瞎特么放飞，，p4就是一个非... 来自朽木永存于世 - 微博

----------


## G-Potion

> 狩猎黄昏种 's Weibo_Weibo


I've seen this before. Every time the ladies' panel still gets me.

----------


## Aioros22

> Lobdell is keeping with her old canon with Artemis being bissexual(...) Edit: Maybe pansexual is a better term?


Yeah it is, Pansexuality is being attracted to someone regardless of their gender of sexual identity. That fits the bill to what Loedbell said regarding the character on Twitter.

----------


## EMarie

> She can still love women. Bisexuals dont stop being bisexuals when in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Pre52 Artemis did show a desire for men, and Lobdell already explained that for rebirth Artemis, gender is not an issue when it comes to love. 
> 
> I get not everyone is crash hot about 'Jaytemis', I have my own drawbacks about the ship but lets not imply that Artemis loving women means her love is exclusive to women, especially when her sexuality historically and even her current writer has shown otherwise.
> 
> I should note that since Lobdell has mentioned the lack of concern for gender. It may be that he is implying that Artemis is Pansexual rather than Bisexual, though in both cases it still wouldnt be an excuse to have her not be with a cis man instead of a woman, so my point remains the same.
>  I just thought I'd clarify.


Exactly, most of the arguments against this I've seen are suggesting that she has to only likes women when that's not the case. Even if someone ends up married to a same sex person that doesn't erase their sexuality to make it so they only like one gender. Diana also likes women and the only reason she's not getting the same type of feedback is because she has a longer history showcasing her attraction to men. Artemis didn't have much of a history as she was more of a side character.

I could get behind Jason and her. It's been hinted at and I like their dynamic.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Maybe I`ve seen it before but didn`t rang a bell. I do love the same panel, mostly because I couldn`t tell whether it was Isabel or his mom at first.

Edit because Isabel.

----------


## G-Potion

> Exactly, most of the arguments against this I've seen are suggesting that she has to only likes women when that's not the case. Even if someone ends up married to a same sex person that doesn't erase their sexuality it make it so they only like one gender. Diana also likes women and the only reason she's not getting the same type of feedback is because she has a longer history showcasing her attraction to men. Artemis didn't have much of a history as she was more of a side character.
> 
> I could get behind Jason and her. It's been hinted at and I like their dynamic.


Some of the arguments I've seen are more about the predictable romantic outcome when there are a guy and a girl in a team (and honestly Lobdell felt the same at one point), as well as the lack of platonic representation between opposite genders in comics. And I agree with them to an extent. However I don't think it's an excuse to blow up or to start dragging Lobdell again, less so when we haven't even seen how it plays out yet.

----------


## RedBird

> @t G
> 
> Maybe I`ve seen it before but didn`t rang a bell. I do love the same panel, mostly because I couldn`t tell whether it was Alice or his mom at first.


Alice? Do you mean Isabel?

I have mentioned this before but since the woman behind him is blond and has a halo, I'm pretty sure its his mother Sheila.

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly, most of the arguments against this I've seen are suggesting that she has to only likes women when that's not the case. Even if someone ends up married to a same sex person that doesn't erase their sexuality to make it so they only like one gender. Diana also likes women and the only reason she's not getting the same type of feedback is because she has a longer history showcasing her attraction to men. Artemis didn't have much of a history as she was more of a side character.
> 
> I could get behind Jason and her. It's been hinted at and I like their dynamic.


It`s like you can even marry/date a guy but that doesn`t mean one day a woman won`t come along making you cheat. You can even like one gender more but as long you like both it`s game depending what you decide for yourself. With a Pansexual, the swimming pool is larger, since they don`t see standard sexual identitties, so anyone ranging from straight females to ladyboys or traps is doable.

Mais exception being made to Necrophilias, Pedophilias and the like, of course, it's gotta be consensual. Public service disclaimer.

----------


## G-Potion

Prepare your offerings guys. We are hitting 600 sooon.  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

> Prepare your offerings guys. We are hitting 600 sooon.


Yeah almost 600... I must search a good image of the Current Outlaws for celebrate this..

----------


## Aioros22

> Alice? Do you mean Isabel?
> 
> I have mentioned this before but since the woman behind him is blond and has a halo, I'm pretty sure its his mother Sheila.


Duh, yeah Isabel. 

And yeah, pretty clear is his mother. Was this posted befor? I sense deja-vu with some of you guys xD

----------


## RedBird

> Some of the arguments I've seen are more about the predictable romantic outcome when there are a guy and a girl in a team, as well as the lack of platonic representation between opposite genders in comics. And I feel the same. However I don't think it's an excuse to blow up or to start dragging Lobdell again, less so when we haven't even seen how it plays out yet.


In all fairness though, those complaints are usually due to many relationships between a man and a woman just developing out of the blue or for the sake of creating an unnecessary romance.......just because. Kinda like when you see a male lead and the only other female in a film and you JUST KNOW, whats gonna happen between them, even before the drama begins. 

Whereas I admit with Jason and Artemis they do have a nice dynamic and a relationship that was built first with the intentions of them growing closer _without_ romance. Theres actually an established bond between them, a friendship well outside of romantic or sexual intentions so, even if I'm kinda not 100% about it, its hard to fault the relationship since at least its not something that came from writer laziness or any default status from being the male and female leads in story. I think the unnecessary romantic setup in stories has created a kneejerk reaction in a lot of people but I'm not sure this title or this relationship deserves that kinda rep.

Plus its just a first date, we still dont even know what will come of this, 'attempt'.

----------


## RedBird

> Duh, yeah Isabel. 
> 
> And yeah, pretty clear is his mother. Was this posted befor? I sense deja-vu with some of you guys xD


Something along those lines yeah. :P

----------


## G-Potion

> In all fairness though, those complaints are usually due to many relationships between a man and a woman just developing out of the blue or for the sake of creating an unnecessary romance.......just because. Kinda like when you see a male lead and the only other female in a film and you JUST KNOW, whats gonna happen between them, even before the drama begins. 
> 
> Whereas I admit with Jason and Artemis they do have a nice dynamic and a relationship that was built first with the intentions of them growing closer _without_ romance. Theres actually an established bond between them, a friendship well outside of romantic or sexual intentions so, even if I'm kinda not 100% about it, its hard to fault the relationship since at least its not something that came from writer laziness or any default status from being the male and female leads in story. I think the unnecessary romantic setup in stories has created a kneejerk reaction in a lot of people but I'm not sure this title or this relationship deserves that kinda rep.
> 
> Plus its just a first date, we still dont even know what will come of this, 'attempt'.


I think for some people who are particularly in this for the gen content, this is like whiplash because the hints started dropping right after Lobdell's statement about him resisting editorial on this matter. The relationship itself is hard to fault, that's true. Whether he wants to or not, Lobdell has done better job than most on steering it the romantic course.

----------


## TheCape

I think that people has knee jerk reaction to romance everytime  that it pops out, because frankly, it hasn't been hadled well in many stories for years (just look most of the MCU films) and well, people are kind of tired of it. Personally speaking, i have never ship Jason with anybody, but i think that him and Artemis had a solid base for starting something entertaining in that deparment, besides as RedBird said, is just a first date, it migth not come to anything.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think that people has knee jerk reaction to romance everytime  that it pops out, because frankly, it hasn't been hadled well in many stories for years (just look most of the MCU films) and well, people are kind of tired of it. Personally speaking, i have never ship Jason with anybody, but i think that him and Artemis had a solid base for starting something entertaining in that deparment, besides as RedBird said, is just a first date, it migth not come to anything.


For all we know, this date could even be cover for a mission or something.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think that people has knee jerk reaction to romance everytime  that it pops out, because frankly, it hasn't been hadled well in many stories for years (just look most of the MCU films) and well, people are kind of tired of it. Personally speaking, i have never ship Jason with anybody, but i think that him and Artemis had a solid base for starting something entertaining in that deparment, besides as RedBird said, is just a first date, it migth not come to anything.


Nah.

If you've looked around the most negative reactions to the solicit come from people that is mad about the story contradicting their head canons, not due actual literary merits (or flaws) that it might have.

----------


## TheCape

> If you've looked around the most negative reactions to the solicit come from people that is mad about the story contradicting their head canons, not due actual literary merits (or flaws) that it might have.


Well that's..... not untrue, i'm surprised of the quantity of people that had done that in my expirience with many fandoms (specially the one related to my picture profile), but i had found some people with legit worries.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

There are absolutely people with legitimate concerns but their reactions are also more reasonable, amounting for the most part to wariness for the upcoming issue rather than going into nonsensical rants and threats against Lobdell.

----------


## EMarie

On tumblr I've only seen the headcanon thing which is usually why many members get upset about various fandoms. Shipping and headcanons are considered serious business. But as for "why can't he have female friends"? I didn't see it being built like a lot of current less developed relationships. Their not really locked into any role at this point besides teammates but they didn't instantly jump into anything either. Jason generally gets along with women better than men, he's more comfortable around them but he hasn't dated all of them. He passed at the chance of having a romantic relationship with Kori. We don't know the details of the issue. Is the whole thing a mission? Will it even work out? All we have is a solicit.

----------


## RedBird

I wonder if this will flourish into a real wonderbat relationship or if this is Lobdells attempt at killing the idea once and for all. I'm kinda hoping its at least kept open as a prospect if it doesnt lead to anything by issue #16. I don't mind possibilities and teases here and there.

EDIT: page 600. We have arrived

----------


## TheCape

Teases are the most likely upcome.

Also, congratulations for reaching the page 600  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

Also, i can't believe that Artemis was attracted to a guy called Sureshot, if that is still canon,.i want Jason to find about it  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

Can't find new images, Ima just post an old favorite of mine.

_Jason Todd by Francis Manapul_
I still have a love for the original outfit.

----------


## RedBird

> Also, i can't believe that Artemis was attracted to a guy calles Sureshot, if that is still canon,.i want Jason to find about it


Oh boy, what if thats who is in the panel that Soy drew? XD

----------


## adrikito

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THE 600th page.. The outlaws love you..

Screen Shot 600.jpg

----------


## EMarie

> Also, i can't believe that Artemis was attracted to a guy calles Sureshot, if that is still canon,.i want Jason to find about it


It has to be if for no other reason than for the reactions. Even her teammate Jessup teased her about that when she overheard the sex dream.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jJw7I7kjK...0/scan0001.jpg




> Oh boy, what if thats who is in the panel that Soy drew? XD


That would be amazing.

----------


## Aioros22

We have arrived. 

Second Thread with the most pages/content out of all the batties and looking for number one. Who woulda thank.

----------


## Aioros22

> I wonder if this will flourish into a real wonderbat relationship or if this is Lobdells attempt at killing the idea once and for all. I'm kinda hoping its at least kept open as a prospect if it doesnt lead to anything by issue #16. I don't mind possibilities and teases here and there.
> 
> EDIT: page 600. We have arrived


Eh, part of me also thinks it`s to shut up that tumblr sect that kept asking for him to "turn" Jason gay. It might even be all in one but regardless, I want it to be something real and to take its time and leave it open.

----------


## Aioros22

fish-ghost.tumblr.com

----------


## RedBird

AAAAAnd another Fish-Ghost piece for good luck

----------


## Aioros22

fish-ghost.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

https://microbluefish.deviantart.com/

----------


## adrikito

> We have arrived. 
> 
> Second Thread with the most pages/content out of all the batties and looking for number one. Who woulda thank.


This reminds me UNDER RED HOOD, the first time that I saw Jason..

----------


## Aioros22

You never forget your first love.

----------


## Aioros22

soccer.sina.com.hk



葉子燉馴鹿_ 的微博 (2016-05-01 09:18)


http://soccer.sina.com.hk/p/weibo/co...71922351917128

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.weibo.com/5096524520/DBh...d1511468673494

----------


## AJpyro

From mattiasfahlberg. BTW yay or nay on glowing eyes?

----------


## Aahz

Btw. according to Boxoffice Mojo Happy Death Day cracked 100 mio internationally.

----------


## Aioros22

Really pleased with it and I enjoyed the movie more than I tought I would given how it`s not a favorite genre. 

I don`t see any movie stealing my top spot for Blane Runner this year, tho.

----------


## Aioros22

Has anyone been reading Titans here? Roy should just come back to the Outlaws in some capacity. He's not doing a thing in it. 

The book is just terribly dull. "Troia" pulling a future Tim Drake and raving about outliving the same small group of friends. Lady, try getting some hobbies while youre at it. 

These dull superhero need some lessons from Marvel`s Hercules on how to take on immortality.

----------


## magpieM

How old is Artemis? Hundreds years old? She must have been with plenty of women/men before, including Akila and Sureshot. I don't think Jason's relationship list is even comparable.

----------


## EMarie

> How old is Artemis? Hundreds years old? She must have been with plenty of women/men before, including Akila and Sureshot. I don't think Jason's relationship list is even comparable.


Lobdell mentioned her being older in an interview but it's unclear if it made it to his final version. In the original canon her people didn't achieve immortality until Circe got involved. When they split from the Themyscirans they either missed the chance of immortality or lost it when they stopped worshipping the Greek Gods. I think Diana called Artemis "child" when they met in Rebirth canon.

----------


## G-Potion

> Btw. according to Boxoffice Mojo Happy Death Day cracked 100 mio internationally.


Lobdell twitted it yesterday. Happy for him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Really pleased with it and I enjoyed the movie more than I tought I would given how it`s not a favorite genre. 
> 
> I don`t see any movie stealing my top spot for Blane Runner this year, tho.


I saw Blade Runner on its last screening day here. I was one of the only two people in there. Such a great movie for it to be doing so poorly.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

Darn missed 600th page. Will redeem myself with newly created art after exam.

http://arikura.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://pevi0.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

> Has anyone been reading Titans here? Roy should just come back to the Outlaws in some capacity. He's not doing a thing in it. 
> 
> The book is just terribly dull. "Troia" pulling a future Tim Drake and raving about outliving the same small group of friends. Lady, try getting some hobbies while youre at it. 
> 
> These dull superhero need some lessons from Marvel`s Hercules on how to take on immortality.


I guess that's why he's in GA to do a thing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

http://galliswelly.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://galliswelly.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://galliswelly.lofter.com

----------


## Assam

> Has anyone been reading Titans here? Roy should just come back to the Outlaws in some capacity. He's not doing a thing in it. 
> 
> The book is just terribly dull. "Troia" pulling a future Tim Drake and raving about outliving the same small group of friends. Lady, try getting some hobbies while youre at it. 
> 
> These dull superhero need some lessons from Marvel`s Hercules on how to take on immortality.


Well the next arc of Titans is gonna have Roy focus and the solicit suggests Lian's return, so hopefully if Roy does guest star in Outlaws (I never want him becoming an Outlaw full time again) we'll hopefully be seeing UncleJay. 




> I guess that's why he's in GA to do a thing.


Really looking forward to that annual issue.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Well the next arc of Titans is gonna have Roy focus and the solicit suggests Lian's return, so hopefully if Roy does guest star in Outlaws (I never want him becoming an Outlaw full time again) we'll hopefully be seeing UncleJay.


You mean this solicit?



> TITANS #20
> Written by DAN ABNETT 
> Art and cover by PAUL PELLETIER and ANDREW HENNESSY Variant cover by NICK BRADSHAW
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue. 
> “Titans Apart” part one! After the Titans are forced into a hiatus by the Justice League, Roy Harper, a.k.a. Arsenal, finds himself without a team—but not without a purpose—as he investigates the rise of a dangerous new drug running rampant in the streets of New York City. But Arsenal isn’t alone—his ex, Cheshire, has joined him on his mission! But are her motives as altruistic as she claims? Or are darker forces at work?
> On sale FEBRUARY 14 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T


Quite the leap in logic to assume it means Lian will show up, don't you think?

----------


## RedBird

> BTW yay or nay on glowing eyes?


I was already pretty yay on the blueish white glowing eyes from rhato v1, then BAK really solidified my love for it. Although I think I like them to be circumstantial. Like maybe as an intimidation device and/or some kind of night vision thing, but not constantly activated on the helmet.

----------


## G-Potion

> From mattiasfahlberg. BTW yay or nay on glowing eyes?


Yay. In addition I'd like to see more features that his helmet can offer. At the moment all it does a lot is breaking lol.

----------


## dietrich

I'm late to the party but congratulations on 600 pages.

----------


## Assam

> You mean this solicit?
> 
> 
> Quite the leap in logic to assume it means Lian will show up, don't you think?


Not really. Is it possible Abnett will disappoint? Of course. But there's literally no reason to have re-established his relationship with Jade in Green Arrow, and now have him work with her here if Lian wasn't on the way.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well the next arc of Titans is gonna have Roy focus and the solicit suggests Lian's return, so hopefully if Roy does guest star in Outlaws (I never want him becoming an Outlaw full time again) we'll hopefully be seeing UncleJay.


See? UncaJay is more than enough reason for him to come back at Outlaws or guest star often. If Rebirth won you over Jason who`s not to think it wouldn`t win you over Roy? It can`t possibly be as dull as his shots at Titans. There`s nothing exciting happening right now. Damian`s junior squad is far more engaging. 

Really looking forward to see both Roy and Kory guest star in the book as it has been mentioned just to see what their new take of the old relationship will turn out to be. It`s been ages Loedbell mentioned it and I hope it hasn`t been scrapped and let`s face it...they haven`t done anything of note with them.

----------


## Assam

> If Rebirth won you over Jason who`s not to think it wouldn`t win you over Roy? It can`t possibly be as dull as his shots at Titans.


Because Lobdell's problem with Jason (from what I read) was never characterization, just low quality writing in general. With Roy, his take on the character would just be regressing him again and we have no guarantee he'd toe the line with Percy and Abentt's takes. Also, he IS the guy who said, "I just felt the character was better off not having a daughter."

And while Titans has definitely taken a nose dive, I still really liked the first arc and what was being done with Roy in it. 




> Damian`s junior squad is far more engaging.


Eh, I'd say both are pretty bad at this point. TT is the definition of a mediocre cape book in my eyes, but made worse by the fact that it's in crossover Hell. I dropped both it and Titans, but unlike Titans, this doesn't have anything to pull me back in.

----------


## Aioros22

Abnett`s take on everyone in the room has been dull from day one. Under Loedbell at least Roy had a character to work with and play with Jason. I like Abnett (his Hercules and Aquaman, save a note here and there were fantastic) but this one is a miss. I think there`s no guarantee Loedbell would regress Roy again since the theme of Rebirth isn`t the same as the New52. That reboot de-aged nearly everyone and  still feel Roy going back to a younger time with no daugther was to make the audience Forget all about the characterization Pre Flashpoint. 

At this point, he`s again in a better place.

----------


## TheCape

Now i want to see UncleJay reacting to this scene  :Smile: 
arsenal1-lianharpergunplay001.jpg
For those that don't know, the gun is unloaded.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because Lobdell's problem with Jason (from what I read) was never characterization, just low quality writing in general. With Roy, his take on the character would just be regressing him again and we have no guarantee he'd toe the line with Percy and Abentt's takes. Also, he IS the guy who said, "I just felt the character was better off not having a daughter."


Lobdell has never had an issue with low quality writing when it comes to the Outlaws, when people say his writing sucks is because is different to what people expected not because the writing itself was bad.

----------


## Assam

> Now i want to see UncleJay reacting to this scene 
> For those that don't know, the gun is unloaded.


Few scenes are as simultaneously adorable and unnerving as this. :Embarrassment:  Still, he _did_ get rid of his guns by the end and realized this was a bad idea. Wonder if Jason would agree.

----------


## Assam

> Lobdell has never had an issue with low quality writing when it comes to the Outlaws, when people say his writing sucks is because is different to what people expected not because the writing itself was bad.


If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. It's fine if you like the Nu52 series and see merit in it, but I thought it was crap, and not just for the depictions of Roy and Kory; I just thought the writing was bad. Not as bad as Lobdell's Teen Titans, but still below average even by the Nu52's low standards.

----------


## magpieM

> Lobdell has never had an issue with low quality writing when it comes to the Outlaws, when people say his writing sucks is because is different to what people expected not because the writing itself was bad.


Is his writing really that unqestionably good for outlaws all the time?

I'm not very interested in his nu52 stories for RH, no matter how hard I tried. 

So it's my own problem...?

----------


## Assam

> Is his writing really that unqestionably good for outlaws all the time?
> 
> I'm not very interested in his nu52 stories for RH, no matter how hard I tried. 
> 
> So it's my own problem...?


It's no one's "problem". And Lobdell definitively  isn't "unquestionably good for Outlaws." The Nu52 book (as well as Red Hood/Arsenal) was widely panned, but it also had its fans.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Because Lobdell's problem with Jason (from what I read) was never characterization, just low quality writing in general. *With Roy, his take on the character would just be regressing him again* and we have no guarantee he'd toe the line with Percy and Abentt's takes. Also, he IS the guy who said, "I just felt the character was better off not having a daughter."
> 
> And while Titans has definitely taken a nose dive, I still really liked the first arc and what was being done with Roy in it.


 
Regarding the bolded almost everyone during the N52 was forcibly regressed so that particular situation isn't specific to Roy and IMHO lots of other characters suffered much worse than he did. (Tim for example) Personally, for me, Roy's lowest point story-wise and absolute worst characterization happened after he lost Lian. I HATED that version of Roy with a passion so for me the N52 regression was a breath of much needed fresh air for him. I actually was able to enjoy reading about the character again and I actually started to care about him again too. I really think that a clean break from his pre-reboot characterization was necessary in order to get the character back on track again and to correct the huge mistakes they made with the character back then.

Abnett's handling of Roy in Titans Hunt and in the first arc of the Titans Rebirth book killed my interest in the character again due to very bland writing and, in the case of Rebirth Titans, very abysmal art. I dropped Titans Hunt after one issue specifically because of his handling of Roy actually. I dropped Titans in four and I honestly wish I had never bothered with it in the first place now that I look back on it.

Now having said all that I do hope that Lian returns and I do look forward to it. I just hope DC doesn't screw it all up again like they did before.

----------


## Assam

> Regarding the bolded almost everyone during the N52 was forcibly regressed so that particular situation isn't specific to Roy and IMHO lots of other characters suffered much worse than he did. (Tim for example) Personally, for me, Roy's lowest point story-wise and absolute worst characterization happened after he lost Lian. I HATED that version of Roy with a passion so for me the N52 regression was a breath of much needed fresh air for him. I actually was able to enjoy reading about the character again and I actually started to care about him again too. I really think that a clean break from his pre-reboot characterization was necessary in order to get the character back on track again and to correct the huge mistakes they made with the character back then.


Don't think I'm crazy. _Cry For Justice_, _Rise of Arsenal,_ and Deathstroke's Titans were all much, MUCH worse than RHatO and what happened to Roy in them was far worse as well. 

But _Convergence: Titans_ showed the way the problems should have been resolved. 

I disagree that Roy wasn't one of the characters most hurt by the reboot, as I don't find NuRoy recognizable at all, but obviously I'm biased since, at the time of the Reboot, Roy was my 2nd favorite character who still existed...and my favorite was _also_ getting butchered by Lobdell over in Teen Titans.Even still, I feel my argument (which I'm far from alone on) holds true.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. It's fine if you like the Nu52 series and see merit in it, but I thought it was crap, and not just for the depictions of Roy and Kory; I just thought the writing was bad. Not as bad as Lobdell's Teen Titans, but still below average even by the Nu52's low standards.


I thought you didn't read the book past the first issues nor were interested on changing that? Because if so, that is even worse generalization that what you're claiming I'm doing.

And I'm generalizing because I've read opinions on RHATO from many, many, sites and it was always the same criticisms. 




> Is his writing really that unqestionably good for outlaws all the time?
> 
> I'm not very interested in his nu52 stories for RH, no matter how hard I tried.  So it's my own problem...?


I never said it was unquestionably good, I said it _wasn't bad_ and it kept a consistent quality over the five years the series lasted (much more than I can tell for many other writers) and that most of the complains come down to personal bias rather than objective criticism on the book.

If you aren't interested on what Lobdell did is a valid opinion but that doesn't mean the books were bad, just not what you were looking for.

----------


## Aahz

> I disagree that Roy wasn't one of the characters most hurt by the reboot, as I don't find NuRoy recognizable at all, but obviously I'm biased since, at the time of the Reboot, Roy was my 2nd favorite character who still existed...and my favorite was _also_ getting butchered by Lobdell over in Teen Titans.Even still, I feel my argument (which I'm far from alone on) holds true.


The reeboot wasn't handled in the best way possible for Roy (that would have been  to erase Cry for Justice and everything that followed, but keep the rest including Lian), but I think that (like with Jason) that it was still a big improvement in comparison to where the character was directly before the reboot.

----------


## G-Potion

There's this sentiment I've seen around where people think Lobdell suddenly becomes a good writer with Rebirth; some jokes going around that he's possessed or that Geoff John is responsible for setting him straight. While all in good fun, I find them also insulting, especially coming from people who didn't give RHATO and RH/A much chance past the first issue. Honestly, his writing hasn't changed _that_ drastically. The book quality improves thanks to the Rebirth movement, good team and editor, and compared to RH/A, no crossover that's detrimental to the main story.

I can't say for Roy since I wasn't well informed of his Post Crisis version but I like his N52 self. However for Jason, I feel that there's more to appreciate his Rebirth character development if you know his journey from the last two series.

----------


## Aioros22

> It's no one's "problem". And Lobdell definitively  isn't "unquestionably good for Outlaws." The Nu52 book (as well as Red Hood/Arsenal) was widely panned, but it also had its fans.


The first volume of Outlaws wasn`t widelly panned outside how Kory was used in the first, maybe two first issues and her relationship with Dick which is editorial. Sales only went down when Tynion came in. 

So yeah.

----------


## Aioros22

> If that isn't a generalization, I don't know what is. It's fine if you like the Nu52 series and see merit in it, *but I thought it was crap*, and not just for the depictions of Roy and Kory; I just thought the writing was bad. Not as bad as Lobdell's Teen Titans, but* still below average even by the Nu52's low standards*.


I thought you didn`t read it..?

----------


## Aioros22

> Now i want to see UncleJay reacting to this scene 
> Attachment 58244
> For those that don't know, the gun is unloaded.


He would hit Roy in the head while getting a seat at the couch, most likely  :Wink: 

Boy I pity the fools who break Liam`s heart. Between a dad who`s a sharposhooter and an uncle who is a marksman and both used to dance around the police, the best you could do is run and hope they don`t come for your ass.

----------


## Assam

> I thought you didn`t read it..?


Read the first trade of RhatO and the first, I think, two issues of Red Hood/Arsenal. 




> Boy I pity the fools who break Lian`s heart. Between a dad who`s a sharposhooter and an uncle who is a marksman and both used to dance around the police, the best you could do is run and hope they don`t come for your ass.


And that's without even getting to the fact that the Titans and Arrow Family were are all basically her aunts and uncles. 

So yeah, there really wouldn't be any hope for them at all.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Read the first trade of RhatO and the first, I think, two issues of Red Hood/Arsenal.


Well, in that case it would be useful if you could tell us your arguments as for why you think the book was bad. Limited as your knowledge is, it would be much better that having you repeating other people's opinions that you aren't even sure if they're right or not.

----------


## G-Potion

Kiss my bullets

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Man, I hope Soy never stops drawing Jason

----------


## magpieM

> Kiss my bullets


Wow, what a boss!!  :EEK!: 

Last time it's just a draft. How exciting to know that it'll be in future issue!

----------


## RedBird

> Kiss my bullets


Amazing, brilliant, beautiful, Soy is seriously the best.

I LOVE the crime lord vibes this is giving off.

----------


## Aioros22

Fucving awesome. Jason at Geese`s Tower after a King of Figthers.

----------


## G-Potion

http://nolimit.lofter.com

What's in the bag?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kaimaciel

I know it's been a while and someone probably has done this already, but I couldn't resist.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/4ef5d087...a8wo1_1280.png
https://78.media.tumblr.com/9a9fadfc...rwjqxf_540.png

----------


## G-Potion

Review for the New Talent Showcase where the Duke and Jason story happens. None of the things the reviewer mentions is what I want to hear.

https://batman-news.com/2017/11/26/n...2017-1-review/

----------


## G-Potion

There is a trend lol.




http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## EMarie

I'm honestly afraid to look at review. 

Cute picture but I think Bizarro is more inclined to listen to Jason.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I'm honestly afraid to look at review. 
> 
> Cute picture but I think Bizarro is more inclined to listen to Jason.


They didn't say much apart from it being a fairly standard team-up for a short story.

Anyone picking this up?

----------


## G-Potion

The reviewer impression is neutral but with the words they use to describe what happens in the story, I guess if you're invested in Jason you have reasons to be worried about. Hope I'll be proven wrong though. Will wait for reaction before deciding whether to pick up.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm honestly afraid to look at review. 
> 
> Cute picture but I think Bizarro is more inclined to listen to Jason.


As far as Bizarro is concerned, Jason only wants his helmet back and he complies.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

> As far as Bizarro is concerned, Jason only wants his helmet back and he complies.


You mean Jason wouldn't be yelling, "Don't toss me either" ?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I didn't plan on getting the book. I used to get any appearance with my favorite characters but I've become jaded after too many bad experiences.

----------


## G-Potion

> You mean Jason wouldn't be yelling, "Don't toss me either" ? 
> 
> I didn't plan on getting the book. I used to get any appearance with my favorite characters but I've become jaded after too many bad experiences.


He'll learn next time.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

> He'll learn next time.


"Don't toss me!" Would probably be Jason's first lesson he taught after they became a team.  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

Why Arkham Red Hood seems to not have the Knight's impresive shoulder to waist ratio.  :Big Grin:

----------


## EMarie

I was just thinking about the stalker guy that hired Grundy. Do you think we'll see him soon or have the next arc be about him?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Review for the New Talent Showcase where the Duke and Jason story happens. None of the things the reviewer mentions is what I want to hear.
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/11/26/n...2017-1-review/





> The reviewer impression is neutral but with the words they use to describe what happens in the story, I guess if you're invested in Jason you have reasons to be worried about. Hope I'll be proven wrong though. Will wait for reaction before deciding whether to pick up.





> They didn't say much apart from it being a fairly standard team-up for a short story.
> 
> Anyone picking this up?


For one, if the review is accurate we're back to "Daddy issues" Jason making it strike one for Patrick. And there was a panel earlier this year where King, Patrick, Tynion and Miller gathered together to discuss things about Batman and Patrick didn't had a high opinion of Jason. So yeah, not an encouraging scenario.





> There is a trend lol.
> 
> http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


Small tip to save pictures from Tumblr

Open the picture on a new tab

https://*78.media*.tumblr.com/cdac4ef1f1e11fea43256b7ad330d65d/tumblr_p017z8yFm71wvpvsso2_*540*.jpg

Replace all the text between // and tumblr with data and the number before .jpg with raw

https://*data*.tumblr.com/cdac4ef1f1e11fea43256b7ad330d65d/tumblr_p017z8yFm71wvpvsso2_*raw*.jpg

This will give you the original picture as the artist uploaded it, and thus, the best resolution available.

----------


## G-Potion

> I was just thinking about the stalker guy that hired Grundy. Do you think we'll see him soon or have the next arc be about him?


I think at the very least it would be after the Outlaws returned from Belle Reve. Also the thing with Bizarro looks like it will play out for quite a while, so I'm not sure how soon until this guy becomes the main plot.

----------


## G-Potion

> For one, if the review is accurate we're back to "Daddy issues" Jason making it strike one for Patrick. And there was a panel earlier this year where King, Patrick, Tynion and Miller gathered together to discuss things about Batman and Patrick didn't had a high opinion of Jason. So yeah, not an encouraging scenario.


The fact that there is conflict between Jason and Duke is already as forced as it is. And am worried about the word "entitlement". What did Patrick say specifically about Jason? 






> Small tip to save pictures from Tumblr
> 
> Open the picture on a new tab
> 
> https://*78.media*.tumblr.com/cdac4ef1f1e11fea43256b7ad330d65d/tumblr_p017z8yFm71wvpvsso2_*540*.jpg
> 
> Replace all the text between // and tumblr with data and the number before .jpg with raw
> 
> https://*data*.tumblr.com/cdac4ef1f1e11fea43256b7ad330d65d/tumblr_p017z8yFm71wvpvsso2_*raw*.jpg
> ...


Thanks for the tip, Dark!

----------


## Barbatos666

> Review for the New Talent Showcase where the Duke and Jason story happens. None of the things the reviewer mentions is what I want to hear.
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/11/26/n...2017-1-review/


Um isn't this supposed to be out after a few days?

----------


## magpieM

> Why Arkham Red Hood seems to not have the Knight's impresive shoulder to waist ratio.


Oh I thought it's only me. But the AK uniform was very tight around the waist. Maybe he just wanted to be more comfortable when he works alone as Red Hood.

Edit: And his AK shoulder armors were very thick, too

(How could he keep his helmet on in front of those delicious home made food?!)

----------


## G-Potion

> Um isn't this supposed to be out after a few days?


These sites usually get review copies sooner I think.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah but advancee reviews are usually brief and spoiler free.

----------


## RedBird

> I didn't plan on getting the book. I used to get any appearance with my favorite characters but I've become jaded after too many bad experiences.


Same here, and in Jasons case, despite buying several bad appearances previously, King was the one who finally made me break my streak of purchasing any new52 or rebirth appearance for Jason. I'm kinda sick of 'trying to be hopeful' and 'giving the benefit of the doubt' to writers who have made it clear that they DONT like the character. And going by what Dark said, it seems that that is once again the case here. Will likely skip this. If anyone does read it let me know how it goes.

----------


## Aahz

I hope he doesn't write them like King did in Batman, that felt really of imo.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> For one, if the review is accurate we're back to "Daddy issues" Jason making it strike one for Patrick. And there was a panel earlier this year where King, Patrick, Tynion and Miller gathered together to discuss things about Batman and Patrick didn't had a high opinion of Jason. So yeah, not an encouraging scenario.


tbf, "Daddy issues" in regards to Jason seems fair, since that exists in RHATO as well. But the reviewer mentioning entitlements is, um, concerning, since that doesn't apply to Jason in any way. I don't need another writer shitting on Jason to prop up their fav, and this writer is the one writing Duke's solo, no? But that could be something Jason says to Duke, idk. 

I just wish we didn't always have to worry about Jason being another writer/character's punching bag, and your comment about him disliking Jason has me worried. I want Jason to interact with the other Batfam members, but it always comes at a cost.

----------


## EMarie

> tbf, "Daddy issues" in regards to Jason seems fair, since that exists in RHATO as well. But the reviewer mentioning entitlements is, um, concerning, since that doesn't apply to Jason in any way. I don't need another writer shitting on Jason to prop up their fav, and this writer is the one writing Duke's solo, no? But that could be something Jason says to Duke, idk. 
> 
> I just wish we didn't always have to worry about Jason being another writer/character's punching bag, and your comment about him disliking Jason has me worried. I want Jason to interact with the other Batfam members, but it always comes at a cost.


Jason might have lingering issues but it makes no sense for them to be directed at anyone but Bruce. I'm assuming by how this sounds that it's a beef against Duke for some reason that makes no sense to me. Damian having issues with Duke would make sense. Jason doesn't, he wasn't even against the WAR kids. Whenever a new character is made to look good by making an older character look bad it makes me dislike the new character. That's lazy writing. If the writer doesn't like Jason he shouldn't use him.

----------


## G-Potion

I've been pretty ambivalent about Duke but this issue could very well decide where I stand since Patrick will be _the_ Duke writer for a while.

I miss the time when writers used Jason because they genuinely like him.

----------


## RedBird

> I miss the time when writers used Jason because they genuinely like him.




Are we talking bout the 80s or something?

----------


## Barbatos666

I dont think Duke can afford another fanbase turning against him. But drama is drama I guess, if the writer feels like they have to amplify certain traits for meaningful interaction then that's what we're gonna get. Its definitely a Duke story, he's on the cover and its written by the writer of his upcoming mini. I'm also surprised that they went with Red Hood and Duke instead of Red Hood and Signal or Jason and Duke. Small things like these reinforce confidence and I think DC isn't confident in Signal, Murphy turning him in to Luke Cage just when he's being established as Signal doesn't do any favors either.

----------


## G-Potion

> Are we talking bout the 80s or something?


It wasn't that long ago. N52 was still kind to him outside of those Bat disasters.  :Frown:

----------


## TheCape

> Are we talking bout the 80s or something?


Ouch, even when i'm not the biggest Jason fan, but that still hurt.

----------


## G-Potion

I'll wait to see how this thing goes. If it's bad then I'm so on board with this:

https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...hing.html#more

----------


## EMarie

Anyone have a list of writers who currently treat Jason's character with respect? It seems like the list is getting shorter and shorter.

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone have a list of writers who currently treat Jason's character with respect? It seems like the list is getting shorter and shorter.


NetherRealm. :P

Seriously though, if you mean recent as in, Rebirth, other than Lobdell I blank out. The most I can say is that Sean Murphy didn't treat Jason in White Knight as badly as I'd feared.

----------


## RedBird

> It wasn't that long ago. N52 was still kind to him outside of those Bat disasters.


Eh, I dont remember any notable use or anything beyond, just having him in the background, which was true of a lot of batfam members due to the disjointed way the new52 operated. Plus for this, I'm not really counting the rhato writers, it would be pretty god damn discerning if even the writer for the main title loathed him. I mean I know dc editors are slack but come on :P

He wasnt really considered family in BnR, Robin war and BARE was a mess that loved shoving both him and Tim to the sidelines, sometimes in the laziest ways possible, he received NO attention or was spared no moment within the writing in Snyders DOTF what so ever, despite the arc being a major callback and reference to _his_ most famous arc. 

You will notice that the only notable time where he was treated as something even close to a main character with something akin to a character arc, is when Dick was gone and Damian was dead, leaving writers (I guess) with 'no choice' but to use him and to actually, you know, give him character. To write him as something more than either a one dimensional joke/brute or as a prop up for another character since there was barely anyone left in the batfam cast. Same reason why all of a sudden in Tomasis BnR he ended up being a valued member of the family in the robin rises arc when Bruce needed all the help he could get.

I think new52 felt kind cause he was still further from the family but not quite the same antagonistic level where he could be used as a 'villian punching bag', but not close enough to warrant many interactions between him and the family as of yet, until the tail end of new52.

(Okay I'll give Tomasi one point for his interpretation of Robin Jason in AK genesis, it was harsh for sure but I thought it felt in character with a Jason who had an even *rougher* life)

----------


## RedBird

> NetherRealm. :P
> 
> Seriously though, if you mean recent as in, Rebirth, other than Lobdell I blank out. The most I can say is that Sean Murphy didn't treat Jason in White Knight as badly as I'd feared.


Lets just wait for that one, I have my fears that Murphy may just make a call back (and perhaps not a notable or pleasant one) to that whole 'Jason was gone' thing.

But along with NetherRealm I like Rocksteadys vision for him too.

----------


## TheCape

> Same reason why all of a sudden in Tomasis BnR he ended up being a valued member of the family in the robin rises arc when Bruce needed all the help he could get.


I'm still laugth about Bruce talking about family, not more secrets, we are together now, etc. And Dick (who was "death") was just hanging in the ceiling of the batcave listening every word. Man, the fact that Bruce was without memory saved him from Jason's fist (Dick wasn't so lucky).

----------


## RedBird

> Ouch, even when i'm not the biggest Jason fan, but that still hurt.


The truth hurts dude. :P

----------


## G-Potion

> Lets just wait for that one, I have my fears that Murphy may just make a call back (and perhaps not a notable or pleasant one) to that whole 'Jason was gone' thing.
> 
> But along with NetherRealm I like Rocksteadys vision for him too.


I like Rocksteady too. Just left it out because it was same period as N52, where there are actually a few writers I think did good with Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> He wasnt really considered family in BnR, Robin war and BARE was a mess that loved shoving both him and Tim to the sidelines, sometimes in the laziest ways possible, he received NO attention or was spared no moment within the writing in Snyders DOTF what so ever, despite the arc being a major callback and reference to _his_ most famous arc.


The disrespect is real.  :Frown: 
Voting with your wallet is not getting the point across. We need to let DC know they'are doing a shitty job with the character.

----------


## Aahz

> Seriously though, if you mean recent as in, Rebirth, other than Lobdell I blank out. The most I can say is that Sean Murphy didn't treat Jason in White Knight as badly as I'd feared.


Trinity wasn't great, but at least nothing that happend was really out of character or made Jason look bad.




> You will notice that the only notable time where he was treated as something even close to a main character with something akin to a character arc, is when Dick was gone and Damian was dead, leaving writers (I guess) with 'no choice' but to use him and to actually, you know, give him character.


Batman Eternal was still quite bad imo, especially if you consider that one of the main writers actually wrote RHatO before the start of Eternal.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm still laugth about Bruce talking about family, not more secrets, we are together now, etc. And Dick (who was "death") was just hanging in the ceiling of the batcave listening every word. Man, the fact that Bruce was without memory saved him from Jason's fist (Dick wasn't so lucky).


Tis why I said, 'needed all the help he could get' and not something I would have preferred like 'wanting to reunite his family'. They were important in the narrative and there was a underlying message of family and bonds, and going to the ends of the earth for each other. And look I dont mind when writers take a moment to focus on Bruces distrusting, intrusive and analytical habits, its part of his personality, but when it is used like it was in BnR, it literally breaks down any message of family and trust the writer had seemed to want to get across, and it feels especially heinous in an arc that was so emotionally charged.

Like man, this was SO not the time to highlight 'jerk batman', because then the batfams intentions and trust feels genuinely heartwarming, whilst Bruce comes across as conniving and manipulative. In an arc that was meant to be a sort of reconciliation for what he put them through (which I still dont think was enough AT ALL, considering the ass he was being), it just further highlighted how horrible he is to his own family.

----------


## G-Potion

> Trinity wasn't great, but at least nothing that happend was really out of character or made Jason look bad.


Oh yes, you're right! It's just so forgettable that I actually forgot about it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> Trinity wasn't great, but at least nothing that happend was really out of character or made Jason look bad.
> 
> Batman Eternal was still quite bad imo, especially if you consider that one of the main writers actually wrote RHatO before the start of Eternal.


Well that doesnt really denote what I mentioned before. My point wasnt that these appearances were bad or good. I was saying that none of them felt like the writer had any love for the character, or any enthusiasm to write them. That Jason in new52 was just, in the background. There, not doin much for the most part. Trinity still follows that trend.

I didnt say Batman Eternal was _good_, but that Jason was actually given character and some development, he wasnt pushed off to the sides as much and was actually utilized since, like I said, there was barely anyone left in the batfam, the writers couldn't push him away so notable time had to be given to him as a main character.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well that doesnt really denote what I mentioned before. My point wasnt that these appearences were bad. I was saying that none of them felt like the writer had any love for the character, or any enthusiasm to write them. That Jason in new52 was just, in the background. There, not doin much for the most part. Trinity still follows that trend.


Do you mean just the Bat titles? Because N52 has some good stuff from Greg Pak, the writer of Supergirl, writer of Deathstroke, Bermejo... Jason had good screentime there and certainly wasn't used as a prop for the titular character.

----------


## RedBird

> Do you mean just the Bat titles? Because N52 has some good stuff from Greg Pak, the writer of Supergirl, writer of Deathstroke, Bermejo... Jason had good screentime there and certainly wasn't used as a prop for the title character.


You know what, that is right. I was kinda focusing on bat titles but now that you mention it, he did feel much better utilized in those titles than within his own family. 

Damn the superman crowd does treat him better, whats an undead, pistol wielding bat gotta do to join the Kents? :P


I still feel like Bermejo is an anomaly here though. I mean, a modern dc writer who.....likes? Robin Jason??? Preposterous I say!

----------


## TheCape

> I still feel like Bermejo is an anomaly here though. I mean, a modern dc writer who.....likes? Robin Jason??? Preposterous I say!


Pak seems to be thw only one. A pitty that many don't remenber the awesomeness of RobinJay.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The fact that there is conflict between Jason and Duke is already as forced as it is. And am worried about the word "entitlement". What did Patrick say specifically about Jason?


Ok, it took me a while and I was misremembering somewhat but here's the panel.

https://youtu.be/eLRsxS-V6zs?t=7m28s

Basically Patrick is talking about how The signal will be about Bruce mentoring a young metahuman with the hope of avoiding him going evil in the future, to this the moderator mentions that Robins who _don't_ die keep turning evil to which Patrick answers with a "Go Jason Todd" and then, later on the panel Patrick admits he believes the family is a dead weight for Batman. So yeah, not really encouraging.

----------


## RedBird

> The disrespect is real. 
> Voting with your wallet is not getting the point across. We need to let DC know they'are doing a shitty job with the character.


How do you suppose that would be done though? The only avenue I can think of is twitter, I myself have never tried it, but I have seen fans connect and communicate with writers there. 
*However*, we've already seen what happens with King when fans show 'distaste'. Granted okay, the thing people felt was distasteful was a crumby attempt at 'trolling' them, and nothing to really throw a fit over, but look, that didn't stop him from using Jason as nothing but a punchline in the story line thereon. At this point, even if I did use twitter to reach out to writers, I would be afraid to bring up any problems I had with Kings interpretation, lest he throw in any more ways to disrespect or misuse the characters ACTUAL personality.

----------


## RedBird

> Ok, it took me a while and I was misremembering somewhat but here's the panel.
> 
> https://youtu.be/eLRsxS-V6zs?t=7m28s
> 
> Basically Patrick is talking about how The signal will be about Bruce mentoring a young metahuman with the hope of avoiding him going evil in the future, to this the moderator mentions that Robins who _don't_ die keep turning evil to which Patrick answers with a "Go Jason Todd" and then, later on the panel Patrick admits he believes the family is a dead weight for Batman. So yeah, not really encouraging.


Thanks for the added commentary/description, I really couldn't be bothered watching something I find so disagreeable.

How can a character with a family that's begun and continued growing from damn near his own inception as a character still have writers who dont care for them or act like they have nothing to do with Batmans popularity and/or the framework for so much of his stories and development.

----------


## Barbatos666

I think Jason gets more love from the current writers than the 80's writers. Starlin loathed him, Collins hated him and these guys CREATED him.

----------


## RedBird

> I think Jason gets more love from the current writers than the 80's writers. Starlin loathed him, Collins hated him and these guys CREATED him.


I don't know man, a lot of the pre crisis days were pretty damn nice, and even some of post crisis. The Starlin Collins 'bratty' stuff was more on the tail end of Jasons career, though I can't even say that all of that was 'bad' either.

----------


## Barbatos666

Its not about good or bad, its about love and hate. Right now Jason has writers who love him, are indifferent to him and ofcourse some may even hate him but they dont go parading about it. He has company support as well.
In the 80's he had no support, writers who loathed him and and talked about it.

----------


## RedBird

> Its not about good or bad, its about love and hate. Right now Jason has writers who love him, are indifferent to him and ofcourse some may even hate him but they dont go parading about it. He has company support as well.
> In the 80's he had no support, writers who loathed him and and talked about it.


True but, outside of the whole planned execution and 'killing a kid character and making the public vote' time. (don't get me wrong I'm not forgetting that mess) 
(besides Starlin and Collins) Can you really say there was a major distaste from writers whilst Jason was robin? Especially in his first appearances within pre crisis? I don't recall it myself, I honestly thought Millers work was what got the ball rolling for the 'edgy n lonely' batman bandwagon from writers and even then it was more a dislike for Robin as a concept than it was for Jason as a character.

I enjoy that Jason has company support, but thats only because fans made their voices loud and clear when he arose. Otherwise he would have been dead again AGES ago. Company supports got nothing to with 'love' either, that goes for all characters under dc.

----------


## Barbatos666

Starlin and Collins have been incredibly vocal about their dislike. Since they created him it set an example for other writers.

----------


## RedBird

> Starlin and Collins have been incredibly vocal about their dislike. Since they created him it set an example for other writers.


Yeah man I know, which is why I said I liked pre crisis and some of post crisis, S and C weren't around the whole time as far as I know, and their strongest 'negative' influence came more at the tail end of Jasons life in post crisis. They didnt create him, but they certainly reshaped his background and shaped his future.

----------


## Barbatos666

They created the Post Crisis version of Jason which is pretty much the version we know. The preceding version was a Dick clone, hard to see that one getting hate.

----------


## TheCape

> They created the Post Crisis version of Jason which is pretty much the version we know. The preceding version was a Dick clone, hard to see that one getting hate.


This is not completly accurate, althougth Pre Crisis Jason started as a Dick clone, he got away from that little by little, at tails end of Pre Crisis he didn't feel like  Dick's clone. Althougth to be honest, Pre and Post Crisis Jason are very different characthers almost impossiboe to reconcile.

----------


## RedBird

> They created the Post Crisis version of Jason which is pretty much the version we know. The preceding version was a Dick clone, hard to see that one getting hate.


I know, its kinda funny how they inadvertently made the character more likable (at least in my eyes) with the street kid backstory. 

The proceeding version had Dicks backstory which was lazy, but he wasn't a clone of Dick. I hear that a lot, that pre crisis Jason was 'just a DG clone' but outside of the circus family deaths and being a generally cheerful kid (which I dont think Dick holds a monopoly on) he wasnt really a clone. He already had his own personality and character traits, in fact the line between precrisis Jay and post crisis Jay is honestly not that defined. After the post crisis shift Jasons new backstory wasn't explained until later in Batman comics, otherwise he still acting pretty much the same despite the so called 'completely different character' shift. All that was changed was the backstory and that he was a little 'rougher' in this iteration.

----------


## RedBird

> This is not completly accurate, althougth Pre Crisis Jason started as a Dick clone, he got away from that little by little, at tails end of Pre Crisis he didn't feel like  Dick's clone. Althougth to be honest, Pre and Post Crisis Jason are very different characthers almost impossiboe to reconcile.


Are they really? I mean besides the 'moodier attitude' what made them so different do you suppose?

(granted we may start delving into personal tastes and interpretation territory but I'm genuinely curious about every elses impression from reading about the character in both 'iterations')

----------


## TheCape

> Are they really? I mean besides the 'moodier attitude' what made them so different do you suppose?
> 
> (granted we may start delving into personal tastes and interpretation territory but I'm genuinely curious about every elses impression from reading about the character in both 'iterations')


To be fair, my memory from those comics isn't the best, so i could be completly wrong, but i remenber Post-Crisis Jason reacting being a bit different regarding his opinions and attitudes toward certain things in his run. Then again, i'm not the most reliable source from that opinion, so any correction would be appreciated.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Patrick admits he believes the family is a dead weight for Batman. So yeah, not really encouraging.


Yikes. DC needs to learn that his family is one of the best things about Batman and why a lot of people latched on to him. But considering how the Batfam keeps being eroded and diminished in importance, I guess he's in line with the company's thoughts.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Starlin and Collins have been incredibly vocal about their dislike. Since they created him it set an example for other writers.





> I think Jason gets more love from the current writers than the 80's writers. Starlin loathed him, Collins hated him and these guys CREATED him.


Er, where are you getting the idea that Collins hated Jason?

Nothing of the sorts is found on his most recent interview

http://exploringthetimelab.blogspot....es-writer.html

If anything he's pissed at editorial for mangling up his plans for the book

----------


## RedBird

> To be fair, my memory from those comics isn't the best, so i could be completly wrong, but i remenber Post-Crisis Jason reacting being a bit different regarding his opinions and attitudes toward certain things in his run. Then again, i'm not the most reliable source from that opinion, so any correction would be appreciated.


Well you're not wrong, of course he reacts much more intensely to certain topics and to Batmans ideals, but along with it being an additional aspect to his personality that made sense with his rougher street upbringing, it doesnt necessarily contradict his previous iteration in any way. In fact you can easily see it as just another evolution for the character, or a maturing stage of his life, since those strong opinions weren't brought up till later in post crisis anyway when he was a bit older. Even the UTRH film takes advantage of that evolution by making kidrobinJay much more bouncy and cheerful, to then contrast it with teenRobinJay who starts becoming more jaded and violent.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> How do you suppose that would be done though? The only avenue I can think of is twitter, I myself have never tried it, but I have seen fans connect and communicate with writers there. 
> *However*, we've already seen what happens with King when fans show 'distaste'. Granted okay, the thing people felt was distasteful was a crumby attempt at 'trolling' them, and nothing to really throw a fit over, but look, that didn't stop him from using Jason as nothing but a punchline in the story line thereon. At this point, even if I did use twitter to reach out to writers, I would be afraid to bring up any problems I had with Kings interpretation, lest he throw in any more ways to disrespect or misuse the characters ACTUAL personality.


It's funny - I was just reading today two old interviews with King that said we were getting the family's reactions to Bruce getting married - in one article Jason is included, and hmm. Still waiting on that. 

I guess the later article that only mentions Damian and Dick as the family is the more honest one of how he sees it.

But, yeah, I wouldn't ever tweet complaints to writers now, because they just double down on what people dislike.

----------


## Aahz

> I didnt say Batman Eternal was _good_, but that Jason was actually given character and some development, he wasnt pushed off to the sides as much and was actually utilized since, like I said, there was barely anyone left in the batfam, the writers couldn't push him away so notable time had to be given to him as a main character.


But again didn't got his own plot and was just a support character for Batgirl and on top of that he (together with Barbara and Tim) got jobbed to prob up Harper and later Batman.

----------


## RedBird

> But again didn't got his own plot and was just a support character for Batgirl and on top of that he (together with Barbara and Tim) got jobbed to prob up Harper and later Batman.


I feel like a lot of these points are debatable to a degree but I honestly cant be bothered analyzing BE, so, meh, then lets take it off the list dude. In all fairness the whole point was to show how little consideration he gets from writers, with this as _perhaps_ one of the few exceptions in new52. But if this is the general sentiment about his appearance in BE then it kinda just makes the list of 'times writers gave a crap' that much more smaller, so. *shrug*

----------


## Aioros22

> Starlin and Collins have been incredibly vocal about their dislike. Since they created him it set an example for other writers.


Collins? I recall him either saying he disliked what they did with him after (Starlin) or was neutral about what they did to him since at large his run in Batman wasn`t what he expected and hadn`t been collected until very recently. 

You got a source?

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_m14i9sJ40o1ql7xlto1_500.jpg
Man, the lead up to UTRH was intense back in the day.

tim-drake-jason-todd-brotherhood-tim-drake-37046603-736-638.jpg
Also, i recently read RH/Arsenal #7 and i kind of liked Jason and Tim interactions there, if it wasn't for TT #18 i would have more respect for Lodbell Tim.
Edit: Sorry for the first image, i don't know why it looks blurred when it is perfectly fine in my phone, is a scene when Bruce is allucinating that Tim is Jason and he is pretty distraugth about the whole thing.

----------


## The Ray

Hope ma boy Jason gets together with Artemis ASAP.

The only WonderBat that matters.

----------


## Assam

> The only WonderBat that matters.


Excuse you  :Stick Out Tongue: 

chinese wonderbat.jpg

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Same here, and in Jasons case, despite buying several bad appearances previously, King was the one who finally made me break my streak of purchasing any new52 or rebirth appearance for Jason. I'm kinda sick of 'trying to be hopeful' and 'giving the benefit of the doubt' to writers who have made it clear that they DONT like the character. And going by what Dark said, it seems that that is once again the case here. Will likely skip this. If anyone does read it let me know how it goes.


Honestly I stopped hunting for and then buying them at all after that abysmal Batman and Red Hood issue that Tomasi wrote. That issue burned me so bad that the only reason that I've even read a few of Jason's appearances outside of RHATO since that time is the result of them happening in books I was pulling anyway and not because I was actively seeking them out to purchase. 

*@EMarie* I'm hoping we see what's up with that guy soon but I rather suspect that Lobdell might be playing a long game here. I expect that we will keep getting clues here and there until the thing with Biz is resolved. In any case I'm really looking forward to seeing where that particular plotline is going.

*@G and RedBird* I agree. Sadly, voting with our wallets on books that Jason only has a minor role of late isn't the answer because most of those books sell far more than RHATO so any boost those books might get from Jason Todd fans is negligible at best. I doubt they would even notice the drop off even if we all stopped reading those books after a poor showing for the character or if we refused to buy those books the next time he showed up in them.

The only thing that might get their attention would be if we all suddenly boycotted RHATO but that would be unfair to Lobdell, who isn't even the problem here not to mention it could backfire resulting in the book's cancellation with Jay shipped off to limbo. I, for one, don't want to see that happen.

The only thing I can think of to do that might be a viable route to take would be to bombard DC with emails about our dissatisfaction directly. I've had loads of people claim that this doesn't work but Steph's fans bombarded DC with letters and so forth and they got her out of limbo and fans were able to convince DC to give Omega Men the 12 issues the writer was promised by them when they heard DC was going to cancel it at six. 

*@Dark* Yeah, I was never under the impression that Collins hated Jason. Starlin on the other hand....

----------


## Assam

> The only thing I can think of to do that might be a viable route to take would be to bombard DC with emails about our dissatisfaction directly. I've had loads of people claim that this doesn't work but Steph's fans bombarded DC with letters and so forth and they got her out of limbo and fans were able to convince DC to give Omega Men the 12 issues the writer was promised by them when they heard DC was going to cancel it at six.


The thing about fan campaigns is that the successful ones have a specific goal in mind. Cass and Steph ? Let them exist again. (We complain about other stuff now, but at the time, the mission was that simple) Omega Men? Let the book finish. HEAT? Return Hal Jordan to Green Lantern status and absolve him of guilt for his actions. Mayday Parker? Give her a new solo. Etc. If a campaign is just based around the idea of 'Various writers don't utilize Character X properly', then while the dissatisfaction will be made known, there isn't exactly a clear response to it on DC's part.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The thing about fan campaigns is that the successful ones have a specific goal in mind. Cass and Steph ? Let them exist again. (We complain about other stuff now, but at the time, the mission was that simple) Omega Men? Let the book finish. HEAT? Return Hal Jordan to Green Lantern status and absolve him of guilt for his actions. Mayday Parker? Give her a new solo. Etc. If a campaign is just based around the idea of 'Various writers don't utilize Character X properly', then while the dissatisfaction will be made known, there isn't exactly a clear response to it on DC's part.


The mission statement is that "we would like to see Jason written as a two dimensional character rather that a one dimensional one", which is pretty much what happens any time a bat writer deals with him and that "we would like to see some consistency in his characterization in books outside of his main title". That is the complaint here and a clear response on DC's part might be to have a character bible available to writers who don't normally handle the character. I've seen fanfic writers who have a much better grasp on Jason and what makes him tick than a lot of comic writers seem to have. That fanfic writers take the time to seemingly do that level of research while those that are paid to actually write the character, even just briefly, seeming can't be bothered to is just sad IMO.

TBH there is a lack of consistency across the board when it comes to characterizations in different titles.

----------


## EMarie

There needs to be tighter editorial work to ensure all of Jason's appearance are consistent and should use Rebirth RHATO as a base. I don't get the impression that any of the writers that we've been discussing have even glanced at it much less Jason's Robin days.

----------


## Barbatos666

A while back DC released a tpb of Collins work, he gave an interview on its release(or close to it) and expressed dislike for Jason there especially compared to Dick. Saying that he didn't want to write him, he actually wanted Dick and that he didn't give a crap about him dying. Not as extreme as Starlin but he was pretty harsh and blunt.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> There needs to be tighter editorial work to ensure all of Jason's appearance are consistent and should use Rebirth RHATO as a base. I don't get the impression that any of the writers that we've been discussing have even glanced at it much less Jason's Robin days.


I get that impression as well and I agree that the editors need to all be on the same page when it comes to his appearances (and with everyone else's as well).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> A while back DC released a tpb of Collins work, he gave an interview on its release(or close to it) and expressed dislike for Jason there especially compared to Dick. Saying that he didn't want to write him, he actually wanted Dick and that he didn't give a crap about him dying. Not as extreme as Starlin but he was pretty harsh and blunt.


That is the same interview I linked a few posts above and you're either mis remembering or taking Collins' words out of context.

* He never express dislike about Jason, he express disappointment at not being able to write Dick as he originally thought it would be the case when he got the job
* He never says he didn't want to write Jason
* He doesn't care about Jason's dead because editorial took the character in a direction entirely different to what he had in mind and thus, to his eyes, the character that died wasn't _his_ version anymore
* He is harsh and blunt because he had a very bad experience working with DC

----------


## magpieM

> A while back DC released a tpb of Collins work, he gave an interview on its release(or close to it) and expressed dislike for Jason there especially compared to Dick. Saying that he didn't want to write him, he actually wanted Dick and that he didn't give a crap about him dying. Not as extreme as Starlin but he was pretty harsh and blunt.


Oh my... It's almost like a doomed tragedy of this character since the day he was created! Not just his own story, but also the general attitude formed and shared among different writers after all those years. Was the success of UTRH like a slap in their face? Jason's back from grave and was suddenly loved by a lot of people, making Batman look bad.

I remember reading some discussions about the DITF. Despite the tragedy, the story was actually full of holes. They just rushed out something to end the boy's life, in such a hopeless and brutal way. 

I think it makes me care about Red Hood even more. (f.u. DC)

----------


## RedBird

> *@G and RedBird* I agree. Sadly, voting with our wallets on books that Jason only has a minor role of late isn't the answer because most of those books sell far more than RHATO so any boost those books might get from Jason Todd fans is negligible at best. I doubt they would even notice the drop off even if we all stopped reading those books after a poor showing for the character or if we refused to buy those books the next time he showed up in them.


Don't get me wrong, I know it would send almost no message to stop buying. How could it? When the majority of complaints are from books he only has a minor role in. That wasn't the point of my refusal to purchase anymore.

I mainly collected 'Jason issues' because I love the character and because after almost 20 years of being dead and out of batman books, I'm just happy to see his existence and presence within it again. Its more the principle of the matter for me. I have found less and less reasons to find Kings writing enjoyable, his dialogue, pacing, story structure and most damning his thematic elements which I already found abysmal, had caused me to drop Batman halfway through because of it. I thought that maybe, just maybe if he could write some nice batfam interactions I may just finally have a reason to read the batman books again. But, those interactions felt ooc to me and on top of that felt like a waste of time. I just refuse to hand over my money anymore to a writer whose content only ever makes me role my eyes. The same also went for Tynions, the batman who laughs whose (The story itself was boring enough) batfam interactions and content came at the price of a psychotic Bruce who slaughters them. Again, I now just refuse to pay for mere scraps of content I'm interested in, I'm sure the metal tie in aint suffering cause of me and my sealed wallet :P

----------


## RedBird

btw has anyone else been keeping up with Injustice 2 comics? 

No, the identity of the 'secret batman' hasnt been revealed, but theres was a small moment in the latest comic alluding to a difference in morality between him and Ras thats interesting.

*spoilers:*
An entire town is wiped out and the secret batman questions it, claiming that every other target they attacked made sense since they had been actively destroying the planet and had 'crimes to answer for', but not this recent town they destroyed. His concerns are brushed off with claims that 'innocents will die' and that its too late to develop a conscience now. He is then visually left behind on the panel as the others continue to walk.
*end of spoilers*

I know its not confirmed that its Jason but damn they are really stretching out this reveal. Is it Jason? Another Damian? Another Bruce? I just wanna know already.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, also saw it. Red Hood incoming. The whole stopping at innocents because all the others had "crimes to pay for" could hardly be anyone else. Anyone else who also happens to know everything about Bruce that is.

They are scrething the reveal long enough and I think is to either finish this year of I2 with it or similarly with his ending in the game, fan out when Superman and Batman inevitably clash again.

----------


## Aioros22

> That is the same interview I linked a few posts above and you're either mis remembering or taking Collins' words out of context.
> 
> * He never express dislike about Jason, he express disappointment at not being able to write Dick as he originally thought it would be the case when he got the job
> * He never says he didn't want to write Jason
> * He doesn't care about Jason's dead because editorial took the character in a direction entirely different to what he had in mind and thus, to his eyes, the character that died wasn't _his_ version anymore
> * He is harsh and blunt because he had a very bad experience working with DC


I could get someone making the extrapolation of "he wanted to write Dick" but again the context was that Collins was not a comic book writer at the time, nor did he follow the raving books. He had little idea about Dick going through his transition as Nigthwing and having a sucessor and in those terms the classic DickRobin would be the one he was familiar with. He was an outsider and was treated at the time as such, including being delivered no "bible" to work out with. 

He pretty much comments how the marketing department often used panels or artwork of Batman/RobinJay for their Batman marchendise and how it was the one department giving him feedback of his work. His disdain for his overall experience at DC was never secret. 

With that said, nowhere he claims to dislike his Jason.

----------


## RedBird

Jason? [x]

----------


## kiwiliko

Looks like Takara's starting on that February issue too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh good, the mouth is just a goof on the cover.

----------


## G-Potion

> The same also went for Tynions, the batman who laughs whose (The story itself was boring enough) batfam interactions and content came at the price of a psychotic Bruce who slaughters them. Again, I now just refuse to pay for mere scraps of content I'm interested in, I'm sure the metal tie in aint suffering cause of me and my sealed wallet :P


Keep this up and Bruce being nice to the family will be a thing that only happens in an alternate universe.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> btw has anyone else been keeping up with Injustice 2 comics? 
> 
> No, the identity of the 'secret batman' hasnt been revealed, but theres was a small moment in the latest comic alluding to a difference in morality between him and Ras thats interesting.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> An entire town is wiped out and the secret batman questions it, claiming that every other target they attacked made sense since they had been actively destroying the planet and had 'crimes to answer for', but not this recent town they destroyed. His concerns are brushed off with claims that 'innocents will die' and that its too late to develop a conscience now. He is then visually left behind on the panel as the others continue to walk.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> I know its not confirmed that its Jason but damn they are really stretching out this reveal. Is it Jason? Another Damian? Another Bruce? I just wanna know already.


Finally it's going somewhere.

----------


## G-Potion

> How do you suppose that would be done though? The only avenue I can think of is twitter, I myself have never tried it, but I have seen fans connect and communicate with writers there. 
> *However*, we've already seen what happens with King when fans show 'distaste'. Granted okay, the thing people felt was distasteful was a crumby attempt at 'trolling' them, and nothing to really throw a fit over, but look, that didn't stop him from using Jason as nothing but a punchline in the story line thereon. At this point, even if I did use twitter to reach out to writers, I would be afraid to bring up any problems I had with Kings interpretation, lest he throw in any more ways to disrespect or misuse the characters ACTUAL personality.


I think Twitter turned antagonistic too easily from both sides and with the 140 character limit before, it's hard to properly explain and/or convince anyone of anything. Sending emails to DC is a more neutral option and writers will less likely to take it personally. This letter campaign proposal here could be the start of something. 

https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...something.html

----------


## G-Potion

> The only thing I can think of to do that might be a viable route to take would be to bombard DC with emails about our dissatisfaction directly. I've had loads of people claim that this doesn't work but Steph's fans bombarded DC with letters and so forth and they got her out of limbo and fans were able to convince DC to give Omega Men the 12 issues the writer was promised by them when they heard DC was going to cancel it at six.


I agree. Might work, might not work, but honestly it's better than not letting them know how disappointed we are with the way they handle a fan favorite character.

----------


## Alycat

It probably won't work. Look at how long it took DC to address complaints about Tim. Even then, they've yet to really show a large personality change. Its also not always good to pay too much attention to complaints or you end up with what looks like going back to imo the boring basics like Nightwing is doing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> btw has anyone else been keeping up with Injustice 2 comics? 
> 
> No, the identity of the 'secret batman' hasnt been revealed, but theres was a small moment in the latest comic alluding to a difference in morality between him and Ras thats interesting.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> An entire town is wiped out and the secret batman questions it, claiming that every other target they attacked made sense since they had been actively destroying the planet and had 'crimes to answer for', but not this recent town they destroyed. His concerns are brushed off with claims that 'innocents will die' and that its too late to develop a conscience now. He is then visually left behind on the panel as the others continue to walk.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> I know its not confirmed that its Jason but damn they are really stretching out this reveal. Is it Jason? Another Damian? Another Bruce? I just wanna know already.


I liked Taylor's work on the first Injustice but now the pacing is absolutely horrid.

----------


## Alycat

> I liked Taylor's work on the first Injustice but now the pacing is absolutely horrid.


Agreed. The first was entertaining but this has been a slog to get through. Not to mention the Harley wank is unbearable. I honestly don't think the time period between 1 and 2 is all that interesting.

----------


## RedBird

> Agreed. The first was entertaining but this has been a slog to get through. Not to mention the Harley wank is unbearable. I honestly don't think the time period between 1 and 2 is all that interesting.


Yeah, I think year 1 was great, year 2 was good, but there has been a steady decline with each year ever since, with that Harley Quinn ground zero series being damn near unbearable. Honestly for me the best and only part of Injustice2 comics that has been enjoyable is Plastic Mans presence.

----------


## Alycat

> Yeah, I think year 1 was great, year 2 was good, but there has been a steady decline with each year ever since, with that Harley Quinn ground zero series being damn near unbearable. Honestly for me the best and only part of Injustice2 comics that has been enjoyable is Plastic Mans presence.


Yu just reminded me that Plastic Man, the best Injustice character, has not been in either game. Wich sucks honestly.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Variant for 17

----------


## Aioros22

I don`t view the pacing in Injustice2 as that bad, given the absurd number of sub-plots emerging because world building from the game. What I view is an Herculean effort from one main creative to let things unfold real time instead of shock value for shock value`s sake. It wouldn`t make much sense for any Red Hood reveal until "maybeJason" starts questioning Ras`s motives and ambitions. 

It`s one of the few comics where every characters gets something to do and shine. Even "filler" issues like the one of Flash one or two issues ago add up to let readers dwelve into the character`s psyche, instead of cliché black and whites and I can only praise the endeavour from the writer in taking that approach. It takes balls and concern about the characters.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yu just reminded me that Plastic Man, the best Injustice character, has not been in either game. Wich sucks honestly.


Verily. 

Slots wasted on Atom and Enchantress and Plas is not in it. Now that would be a unique moveset to add the game flavour.

----------


## Alycat

> Verily. 
> 
> Slots wasted on Atom and Enchantress and Plas is not in it. Now that would be a unique moveset to add the game flavour.


I think Atom is actually pretty neat, but I fully agree with you on Enchantress. Aside from synergy, she is truly a baffling addition.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...43745134649346

I think is safe to assume that is for RHATO 18

----------


## TheCape

> I think Atom is actually pretty neat, but I fully agree with you on Enchantress. Aside from synergy, she is truly a baffling addition.


I migth be judging her too early, but she seems to be a remplacement for Raven in the roster.

----------


## Alycat

> I migth be judging her too early, but she seems to be a remplacement for Raven in the roster.


I was thinking Zatanna but you're probably right. Some of the game choices are so baffling though. "Lets put in this unpopular villain from the bad movie over a popular character from a popular team!"

----------


## DragonPiece

Red Hood trains Duke in the new talent special issue out tomorrow, in case anyone is interested.

----------


## The Whovian

> Red Hood trains Duke in the new talent special issue out tomorrow, in case anyone is interested.


Okay Jason, this is your chance to get rid of Duke. Teach him something stupid or a move that will get him killed. Mwahahahah!!

----------


## DragonPiece

> Okay Jason, this is your chance to get rid of Duke. Teach him something stupid or a move that will get him killed. Mwahahahah!!


lol..I imagine Jason would make knocks at duke

----------


## G-Potion

Anyone playing this DC Legends? Red Hood is coming.






> RED HOOD: VENGEFUL VIGILANTE
> Raised on the mean streets of Gotham, Jason Todd was recruited as the new Robin after attempting to burglarize the Batmobile. Todd’s rebellious streak led to a deadly encounter with the Joker but he returned from the dead thanks to the power of the Lazarus Pit. Adopting a new identity, the ruthless Red Hood, he pursues criminals with deadly vengeance and walks a thin line between hero and villain.
> Red Hood's Blazing Pistols cut through Awareness stacks and roll into his buff-killing Barrel Down. He can place Bleeds and Heal Immunity with each shot, even with his area-effect Explosive Gunplay. When enemies die, Red Hood can both steal buffs and block buff effects like Deathstroke's Army Of One!
> 
> "Show No Mercy":  Team Red Hood up with Cyborg Superman, Doctor Fate, and Doctor Poison. This team rips through buff and immunity teams with powerful purges, burying enemies in continuous Bleed Damage. Red Hood brings enough Heal and Buff Immunities to keep enemies dead and power Doctor Fate's super-charged bonus attacks. Even a one-man army like Deathstroke should fear this lethal combination.

----------


## RedBird

Little Red Riding Hood

----------


## G-Potion

> Little Red Riding Hood


Prettty!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

Hope its available to purchase



Pretty sure this is meant to be Soy wearing the shirt. I think you can even see the skull and jasonbruce photoframe was his other twitter pics  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

One disappear for a while and suddenly we are pass 600 pages, nice!

And btw, you guys freaking out about the Jason and Duke one shot story was completely unnecessary because Jason was treated with respect. The story was nice and it was about Jason mentoring Duke with Catwoman showing up later at Jason's request.

----------


## Rise

> Jason? [x]


This seriously a great one.

----------


## RedBird

> One disappear for a while and suddenly we are pass 600 pages, nice!
> 
> And btw, you guys freaking out about the Jason and Duke one shot story was completely unnecessary because Jason was treated with respect. The story was nice and it was about Jason mentoring Duke with Catwoman showing up later at Jason's request.


Hey if you are prepared for dissapointment then you can only ever be left pleasantly surprised when expectations differ. Thats honestly nice to hear, I will see tomorrow with friends if the book itself is worth a purchase.

And yup 600 pages done and already over a tenth of the way to page 700.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> One disappear for a while and suddenly we are pass 600 pages, nice!
> 
> And btw, you guys freaking out about the Jason and Duke one shot story was completely unnecessary because Jason was treated with respect. The story was nice and it was about Jason mentoring Duke with Catwoman showing up later at Jason's request.


Haven't read it but the preview (https://www.cbr.com/new-talent-showcase-2017-1/) looks decent  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

Can anyone figure out who is in the 'family page' in the Batman #2 Annual ?

I dont want to spoil things for people but my friend gave me a look and we were both kinda confused as to who was in the panel, theres seems to be a few easter egg characters in there from what I could gather as well as SOME batfam members.

Oh and the annual was pretty decent too. King should seriously stick to one off stories, the previous 'rooftops' as well as the swamp man story were probably his best work on Batman imo.

----------


## okiedokiewo

I'm seeing a lot of positive reviews for the Duke-and-Jason story on Tumblr, so I might have to check that out. People seem to want more of them together. I've said that the easiest way to get people to be interested in Duke is to start giving him positive relationships with the Robins and not just Bruce.

----------


## Aioros22

> One disappear for a while and suddenly we are pass 600 pages, nice!
> 
> And btw, you guys freaking out about the Jason and Duke one shot story was completely unnecessary because Jason was treated with respect. The story was nice and it was about Jason mentoring Duke with Catwoman showing up later at Jason's request.


Let`s keep hoping we get more unnecessary freaks like that.

----------


## Aioros22

> Can anyone figure out who is in the 'family page' in the Batman #2 Annual ?
> 
> I dont want to spoil things for people but my friend gave me a look and we were both kinda confused as to who was in the panel, theres seems to be a few easter egg characters in there from what I could gather as well as SOME batfam members.
> 
> Oh and the annual was pretty decent too. King should seriously stick to one off stories, the previous 'rooftops' as well as the swamp man story were probably his best work on Batman imo.


Redhead in front is likely Carrie, Duke is easy to spot and at first glance the guy at the left corner with red shirt and the leather jacket is Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

Here is how I guess who is who in that panel, from left to right:

1- Jason. He does look younger than he should be but that`s his classic atire and colors at this point. Also, Lazarus Pit keeps you younger for longer, whatevahs. 

2- Either an older Cass or Helena. Better if be Helena because if it`s Cass she`s whitewashed.  

3- Barbara because, wouldn`t really be anyone else. Red head and glasses and holding herself to..

4- White haired Dick Grayson, of course. 

5- Carrie Kelley. Short haired redhead with glasses? Pretty easy too. 

6- Duke, of course. 

(No coincidence that these two are the easy spots, they`re the contributions of Snyder in terms of new characters/main continuity) 

7- This one is tricky but I`m going to risk it and say it`s Arkham Tim (buzzcut and ligther hair) next to..

8- Steph.

9- Eh, Damian Wayne? Not anyone else left of the gang. 

The weird part is, "Dick" and "Damian" look way older than "Jason" and "Tim". There`s also the chance some characters here are just modeled after easter eggs or even the creative team themselves.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Here is how I guess who is who in that panel, from left to right:
> 
> 1- Jason. He does look younger than he should be but that`s his classic atire and colors at this point. Also, Lazarus Pit keeps you younger for longer, whatevahs. 
> 
> 2- Either an older Cass or Helena. Better if be Helena because if it`s Cass she`s whitewashed.  
> 
> 3- Barbara because, wouldn`t really be anyone else. Red head and glasses and holding herself to..
> 
> 4- White haired Dick Grayson, of course. 
> ...


Unlikely that is Carrie since Miller has a ban on her being used out side of his continuity which was why her big role in Batman and robin was scraped. And it was Tomasi not Synder who trued to bring her into our continuity.

----------


## Aioros22

I stand corrected, it was Tomasi. 

That said, it`s just a page cameo on a standalone story that may or not fit in continuity. Don`t see why Miller would be bothered by _that_. If it`s not her, it`s a clear look alike, not that would be a big difference. 

Also, heads up. Gotham City Garage has been leading up to a Luthor team confrontation with all the girls after Bats is beaten and captured and Jason may show up again. Luthor mentions to Mercy (who is really Catwoman) to get the "Hoods on payroll" and to unite his League and the girls are now gathering forces to rally an army to stand up against the "Storm" that is coming. Barda and the rest split up to several locations and one of them (which is where Kara is also going) is called the *Black Grove*, where, as Barda puts it, "every rider of the freescape go, eventually". 

So, not only will we have the possible prospect of the Hood gang back as part of Luthor`s army..you know where this is going  :Cool:

----------


## TheCape

> That said, it`s just a page cameo on a standalone story that may or not fit in continuity. Don`t see why Miller would be bothered by*that. If it`s not her, it`s a clear look alike, not that would be a big difference.


Maybe she is Kelly Carrie  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

*Snaps fingers*

You just saved the Office from angry Miller  :Wink:

----------


## CPSparkles

My guess was Babs and Dick's Daughter

----------


## Aioros22

Maybe, I can`t really say it can`t be. She just happens to look exactly like another character we already know  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> My guess was Babs and Dick's Daughter


Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

----------


## RedBird

> Here is how I guess who is who in that panel, from left to right:
> 
> 1- Jason. He does look younger than he should be but that`s his classic atire and colors at this point. Also, Lazarus Pit keeps you younger for longer, whatevahs. 
> 
> 2- Either an older Cass or Helena. Better if be Helena because if it`s Cass she`s whitewashed.  
> 
> 3- Barbara because, wouldn`t really be anyone else. Red head and glasses and holding herself to..
> 
> 4- White haired Dick Grayson, of course. 
> ...



Yeah see this is pretty much what I thought too with 1 to 6 and 8, (especially Jason since he looks almost exactly as he did in issue 33). All seem easy enough to spot except that 7 blondie buzzcut looks more like Azrael than Tim, and I honestly thought 9 looked more like Tim than Damian (plus placing him near Steph I figured was meant to be a giveaway like how babs and dick were placed together). Its a weird mix of the family, but then again, the story seems like an alternate timeline to me, I can't recall but were the bat undies brought back into continuity before this issue? Their use here (if for the first time) makes me doubt its in line with rebirth continuity.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Maybe, I can`t really say it can`t be. She just happens to look exactly like another character we already know


true. then again I thought Dick fro Lego batman was Carrie fora while. Comics love Red heads

----------


## Aioros22

> true. then again I thought Dick fro Lego batman was Carrie fora while. Comics love Red heads


He totally was, that`s the reference.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah see this is pretty much what I thought too with 1 to 6 and 8, (especially Jason since he looks almost exactly as he did in issue 33). All seem easy enough to spot except that 7 blondie buzzcut looks more like Azrael than Tim, and I honestly thought 9 looked more like Tim than Damian (plus placing him near Steph I figured was meant to be a giveaway like how babs and dick were placed together). Its a weird mix of the family, but then again, the story seems like an alternate timeline to me, I can't recall but were the bat undies brought back into continuity before this issue? Their use here (if for the first time) makes me doubt its in line with rebirth continuity.


Azrael, yeah that could work too. Doesn`t ring the same bell because he hasn`t really been around in the main core for years. 

I`m going to guess this is the first story since the reboot where the undies are back in town and the story feels like really it`s own thing. It`s a format that strangely fits Snyder.

----------


## RedBird

> So, not only will we have the possible prospect of the Hood gang back as part of Luthor`s army..you know where this is going


......Jason not learning his lesson the first time and getting his ass handed to him by a superpowered girl? :P

----------


## Aioros22

Technically, he was mostly out by the crash, but no. Siding with the girls  :Wink:

----------


## RedBird

> Technically, he was mostly out by the crash, but no. Siding with the girls


I'd love to think so, though I don't wanna get my hopes up, I'm still not sure where his allegiances lie, you know? Is it with; Luthor? Cash? Weapons? His Gang? Or his own freedom loving rebellious wants and whims? 

Honestly just the fact that he will be most likely returning and making another appearance is cool enough, GCG has been pretty entertaining for what it is.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> One disappear for a while and suddenly we are pass 600 pages, nice!
> 
> And btw, you guys freaking out about the Jason and Duke one shot story was completely unnecessary because Jason was treated with respect. The story was nice and it was about Jason mentoring Duke with Catwoman showing up later at Jason's request.


Not particularly disrespectful but not great nor good either. Patrick has a very shallow understanding of Jason's character, his voice was off, his actions even more so (seriously? going straight to the kill in the _middle of the batcave_? Did Patrick didn't bother to read the rebirth issue of RHATO at least?)  And of course, we had to see the crowbar and the Joker _again_.

----------


## Rise

Jason didn't kill anyone, he was just training Duke and testing him.

And what kind of depth you want exactly from a guy who just wrote his first comic ever and it was only 10 pages?

----------


## G-Potion

I haven't read any comics this week yet, but wow, a good week on potentially all fronts for Jason?  :EEK!:  

I'll get New Talent Showcase. If it's as good as everyone is saying it is, will hunt down Patrick's twitter to thank him too, for the first real meaningful use of Rebirth Jason outside RHATO so far.

----------


## G-Potion

> ......Jason not learning his lesson the first time and getting his ass handed to him by a superpowered girl? :P


She's totally charmed by his recklessness.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> I haven't read any comics this week yet, but wow, a good week on potentially all fronts for Jason?  
> 
> I'll get New Talent Showcase. If it's as good as everyone is saying it is, will hunt down Patrick's twitter to thank him too, for the first real meaningful use of Rebirth Jason outside RHATO so far.


His twitter bio sure had an interesting cover page at the moment.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also, heads up. Gotham City Garage has been leading up to a Luthor team confrontation with all the girls after Bats is beaten and captured and Jason may show up again. Luthor mentions to Mercy (who is really Catwoman) to get the "Hoods on payroll" and to unite his League and the girls are now gathering forces to rally an army to stand up against the "Storm" that is coming. Barda and the rest split up to several locations and one of them (which is where Kara is also going) is called the *Black Grove*, where, as Barda puts it, "every rider of the freescape go, eventually". 
> 
> So, not only will we have the possible prospect of the Hood gang back as part of Luthor`s army..you know where this is going


Aw yeeah I like what I'm hearing.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> His twitter bio sure had an interesting cover page at the moment.


Wha?? Is it from the Duke/Jason story?

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason didn't kill anyone, he was just training Duke and testing him.
> 
> And what kind of depth you want exactly from a guy who just wrote his first comic ever and it was only 10 pages?


Siding with Rise on this one. For a first comic and limited number of pages, it`s good, there`s little way you could get more depth and I don`t feel Patrick failed at nuances anyhow, even the cliché scene. 

This issue was akin a Danger RoomTM training day. Jason can shoot whoever he wants, they`re not real. Besides, whatever promise he`s made or feels he owns, he owns it to _Bruce_, not the new kid on the block.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason didn't kill anyone, he was just training Duke and testing him.
> 
> And what kind of depth you want exactly from a guy who just wrote his first comic ever and it was only 10 pages?


_Training him to use lethal force_

The kind of depth that shows he did more than pull a summary from wikipedia of the characters he's writing.

----------


## dietrich

I thought he did alright. Patrick is new and he doesn't have a great deal of knowledge about the family I mean the guy is writing Duke and is yet to get to Robin war so all in all the fact that he managed to do a better job than seasoned writers who ought to know the family inside out is a big plus.

----------


## Aioros22

> _Training him to use lethal force_
> 
> The kind of depth that shows he did more than pull a summary from wikipedia of the characters he's writing.


It`s sort of fitting. Someone has to teach the new kids the hard lessons and Batman _usually_ isn`t the person pushing it. In the context of a Training day which programming includes being killed by the Joker, lethal force may save your buttside one day and that`s what Jason is teaching Duke here. Hence why Catwoman is the other person in the story and not one of the other scouts. It`s a drill and you gotta hava those in that line of work. 

Are we suddently forgetting who Batman trusted with training Tim after what happend to Jason? _Lady Shiva_.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. is Duke really from the Narrows? I had the impression that he came from a quite normal background, at least before his parents got Jokerized.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It`s sort of fitting. Someone has to teach the new kids the hard lessons and Batman _usually_ isn`t the person pushing it. In the context of a Training day which programming includes being killed by the Joker, lethal force may save your buttside one day and that`s what Jason is teaching Duke here. Hence why Catwoman is the other person in the story and not one of the other scouts. It`s a drill and you gotta hava those in that line of work. 
> 
> Are we suddently forgetting who Batman trusted with training Tim after what happend to Jason? _Lady Shiva_.


It still conflicts with the characterization of Jason on his own book and his promise to Bruce and I doubt that Batwoman even teaches the same lesson to the other members of the team. Using the simulator is also a lazy approach and one that doesn't really fit Jason's character either (he's not keen of the batcave remember?)

----------


## G-Potion

Jason trained with a simulator in Kory's ship too right? And if the given premise is Jason training Duke _willingly_, I don't think in that context he'd mind being in the batcave that much.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason trained with a simulator in Kory's ship too right? And if the given premise is Jason training Duke _willingly_, I don't think in that context he'd mind being in the batcave that much.


Yes but Jason is the one most aware of the risks involved with the job and thus, he's the one who teaches on the field. Like he tried to do with Duela. In that respect, King had the right idea during the Robin War montage but he screwed up the pooch by having Jason completely disregard the safety of his pupils.

----------


## Savatewolf

You know, seeing all these future Jasons and the Batman Beyond death battle, I wouldnt mind seeing a new generation Outlaws team. Who would you guys like to see as future members?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It`s sort of fitting. Someone has to teach the new kids the hard lessons and Batman _usually_ isn`t the person pushing it. In the context of a Training day which programming includes being killed by the Joker, lethal force may save your buttside one day and that`s what Jason is teaching Duke here. Hence why Catwoman is the other person in the story and not one of the other scouts. It`s a drill and you gotta hava those in that line of work. 
> 
> Are we suddently forgetting who Batman trusted with training Tim after what happend to Jason? _Lady Shiva_.


I agree and, for once, I actually enjoyed an interaction between Jason and a member of the family. It was a fun little story in my opinion and it was nothing at all like people were saying it was going to be like. Jason had a nice showing here as did Duke. Neither character was nerfed to make the other look bad for one thing and that's something  that seems to happen with regularity to Jason (and to others as well if I'm being completely honest). He wasn't used as comic relief either, which is another complaint people seem to have about his use in other stories. I actually was glad to see him in a one on one training session and to hear him actually talking intelligently about fights for once. All in all I was happy with the story.

----------


## TheCape

I don't have a line up, but Liam Harper would be pretty amusing.

----------


## Savatewolf

> I don't have a line up, but Liam Harper would be pretty amusing.


Omg if she does take on the Red Hood name it could still be called Red Hood and the Outlaws

----------


## EMarie

Are we only using previously created characters or can we add new ones? Like a kid Jason has. We've seen Dick as a dad with his own kids so why not Jason? We already have some idea what he'd be like based on his interactions with Bizarro.

----------


## TheCape

> Are we only using previously created characters or can we add new ones? Like a kid Jason has. We've seen Dick as a dad with his own kids so why not Jason? We already have some idea what he'd be like based on his interactions with Bizarro.


To be honest, althougth i think that Jason is a romantic at heart and the idea of a family isn't unapealing to him, i think it would get a lot of time to get over his insecurities, that being said, i think that he would be a pretty good dad, if he give himself the chance.

----------


## RedBird

> To be honest, althougth i think that Jason is a romantic at heart and the idea of a family isn't unapealing to him, i think it would get a lot of time to get over his insecurities, that being said, i think that he would be a pretty good dad, if he give himself the chance.


Pretty much THIS.

Thats exactly how I see Jason too, plus I feel he has a tendency to value family over the 'mission' which is often what puts a lot of the other bats love lives in peril, I don't think Jason would have that problem. Like you said, if he only could just recuperate and heal from a lifetime of insecurities.

----------


## EMarie

That doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. It might even be a gradual thing like he protects an orphan kid and eventually becomes his dad. Then at some later point Jason and whoever he's with have a baby together. He'd already be a dad with his adopted kid and it would help him get over some issues by the time the baby came. Plus I think he'd be more confident if he wasn't a single parent. Jason could still do it but his insecurities wouldn't bother him as much if he didn't do it himself.

I think Lobdell mentioned the possibility of Jason being a dad when comparing his relationship with Bruce. Saying that years down the line when someone else has Jason having a kid he'd get Bruce's POV or something along those lines. I like that story potential.

----------


## TheCape

> I think Lobdell mentioned the possibility of Jason being a dad when comparing his relationship with Bruce. Saying that years down the line when someone else has Jason having a kid he'd get Bruce's POV or something along those lines. I like that story potential.


That sounds really good and frankly Bruce would be proud that one of his sons manage to get this far on his life.

----------


## adrikito

> His twitter bio sure had an interesting cover page at the moment.


COOL Red Hood image..

----------


## G-Potion

Finally read Role Call. The review gave me the wrong impression; Jason finally gets a decent appearance outside RHATO, hallelujah! Gonna send a nice little thank-you to Patrick now. Hopefully we will see more of his Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Are we only using previously created characters or can we add new ones? Like a kid Jason has. We've seen Dick as a dad with his own kids so why not Jason? We already have some idea what he'd be like based on his interactions with Bizarro.


I think he would be a good parental figure. But he's still a kid himself, with tons of issues. Taking on the role of a dad at this age will likely give even more issues, and not enough time to sort himself out.

----------


## EMarie

> I think he would be a good parental figure. But he's still a kid himself, with tons of issues. Taking on the role of a dad at this age will likely give even more issues, and not enough time to sort himself out.


I wasn't talking about now--although Roy turned out fine as a young single dad and he has lots of baggage himself--I brought this up in responds to the next generation of Outlaws.

----------


## G-Potion

> I wasn't talking about now--although Roy turned out fine as a young single dad and he has lots of baggage himself--I brought this up in responds to the next generation of Outlaws.


Aah I missed that I'm an idiot.  :Big Grin:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Finally read Role Call. The review gave me the wrong impression; Jason finally gets a decent appearance outside RHATO, hallelujah! Gonna send a nice little thank-you to Patrick now. Hopefully we will see more of his Jason.


I'd like to see more of his Jason actually. I was really impressed with the story actually and it was a breath of fresh air after all the mediocre appearances he's been getting outside of his own book.

----------


## G-Potion

If anyone knows the source so I can link this adorable teddy.  :Embarrassment: 



Edit: https://twitter.com/WCotty100 (Thanks, Kiwi!)

----------


## G-Potion

I'm tempted to pick up this game just for Jason.... but man does he look expensive.

----------


## Assam

It's not worth it. That game is horribly boring and repetitive, and if you don't want to pay all that real money, it's gonna take you many, MANY hours to unlock him.

----------


## G-Potion

Ikemen Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

> It's not worth it. That game is horribly boring and repetitive, and if you don't want to pay all that real money, it's gonna take you many, MANY hours to unlock him.


Darn. It didn't look that bad in the live play I watched. I'm not paying 100$ for it though.  :Frown:

----------


## kiwiliko

> If anyone knows the source so I can link this adorable teddy.


Artwork by Wcotty100 on twitter!
https://twitter.com/WCotty100

----------


## Savatewolf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=LLR...&v=wId8XY6y_HA

Batman ninja trailer

Jason is in it but he doesn't look too cool. The robins seem to have rivals 
Dick vs Penguin
Tim vs Two face
Damian vs Poison Ivy
And Jason vs Deadshot

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm tempted to pick up this game just for Jason.... but man does he look expensive.


100 bucks!?

WTF




> Ikemen Red Hood.


Is it me or they gave him an undercut ala RH/A?

And boy, Ninja Red Hood looks kind of stupid

----------


## Savatewolf

> 100 bucks!?
> 
> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> Is it me or they gave him an undercut ala RH/A?
> 
> And boy, Ninja Red Hood looks kind of stupid


Yeah it does but at least he doesn't have Damians haircut, chances are it'll get broken off like any Red Hood helmet would though

----------


## yohyoi

> 100 bucks!?
> 
> WTF
> 
> 
> 
> Is it me or they gave him an undercut ala RH/A?
> 
> And boy, Ninja Red Hood looks kind of stupid


Is that a basket!? smh

----------


## G-Potion

Seriously? Come on...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah it does but at least he doesn't have Damians haircut, chances are it'll get broken off like any Red Hood helmet would though





> Is that a basket!? smh


For what is worth, seems like Jason's design is inspired by the _komusō_ a group of travelling monks from the 1600s that were often used as spies or assassins. 

And Damian's haircut seems like is the same haircut heirs of rich families wore.

----------


## G-Potion

> 100 bucks!?
> 
> WTF


I think 100 bucks to get him to legendary. But like Assam said, otherwise you will have to spend hours trying to get just the basic version. (Someone says even that version is in the store, not on the roster)





> Is it me or they gave him an undercut ala RH/A?


I thought they change his hair as first, but I went back to the 2D art and yes, he has an undercut there, just hard to spot.

----------


## Savatewolf

> For what is worth, seems like Jason's design is inspired by the _komusō_ a group of travelling monks from the 1600s that were often used as spies or assassins. 
> 
> And Damian's haircut seems like is the same haircut heirs of rich families wore.


Yeah but it's anime, they don't have to be so close to actual history, or at least shorten it that's biggest problem i have with it. But I'll still watch it since it looks cool and seems to animate well.

----------


## G-Potion

> For what is worth, seems like Jason's design is inspired by the _komusō_ a group of travelling monks from the 1600s that were often used as spies or assassins.


To be fair, his design is otherwise good and I like the color scheme. Now if only the stupid basket would break as soon as the fight started. But anyhow, it's interesting the inspiration for Jason comes from these people. Anyone reminded of the All-Caste?

From the wiki:



> They were also known for playing solo pieces on the shakuhachi (a type of Japanese bamboo flute). These pieces, called honkyoku ("original pieces"), were played during a meditative practice called suizen, for alms, as a method of attaining enlightenment, and as a healing


Interesting. Can Jason do it please?

----------


## G-Potion

> Artwork by Wcotty100 on twitter!
> https://twitter.com/WCotty100


Cheers, Kiwi!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Savatewolf

> To be fair, his design is otherwise good and I like the color scheme. Now if only the stupid basket would break as soon as the fight started. But anyhow, it's interesting the inspiration for Jason comes from these people. Anyone reminded of the All-Caste?
> 
> From the wiki:
> 
> 
> Interesting. Can Jason do it please?


The paradox of us Red Hood fans lol:

Comics: Don't break the mask!

Anime: Hurry up and break the mask!

----------


## G-Potion

> The paradox of us Red Hood fans lol:
> 
> Comics: Don't break the mask!
> 
> Anime: Hurry up and break the mask!


I was about to say the same thing ahaha.

----------


## G-Potion

Now that I've read the wiki Dark provided. I kinda like the whole design now.




> The idea was that by wearing such a hat they removed their ego. What the hat also did was remove their identity from prying eyes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Batman is wearing his normal costume at what it seems is the start of the film, with any luck, it will be same for the boys.

----------


## G-Potion

It's a cool reversal that Jason is now the least armored among the family.

----------


## Savatewolf

And Alfred is wearing his normal butler attire as well, can't wait to see Red Hood vs Deadshot

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's a different trailer with subs

https://twitter.com/damainwayne/stat...76180269748224

----------


## magpieM

errrr... The basket looks strange. 
Wouldn't it hinder himself when he's doing some close-range or acrobatic movements?
It's too high, and it doesn't seem to be very comfortable...

The outfit is good, but the basket is too 'outstanding'. The main look of Scorpion and Sub Zero in MK-X, for example, both are good mixture of hood / helmet + Ninja style. There must be tons of designs & variations better than this basket.

----------


## kiwiliko

> For what is worth, seems like Jason's design is inspired by the _komusō_ a group of travelling monks from the 1600s that were often used as spies or assassins. 
> 
> And Damian's haircut seems like is the same haircut heirs of rich families wore.


Knowing where it comes from at least makes the design somewhat better in my eyes. Real talk though, that helmet must add at least a foot to Jasons height. He is absolutely someone who decides to wear that monstrosity if it makes him taller than Bruce. 

On a side note, it looks like there might be time travel themes. If the robins enter this universe from their own, who do we have bets on that got stuck holding down Damian for that haircut.

----------


## G-Potion

> Knowing where it comes from at least makes the design somewhat better in my eyes. Real talk though, that helmet must add at least a foot to Jasons height. He is absolutely someone who decides to wear that monstrosity if it makes him taller than Bruce.


What it's supposed to mean 




> The idea was that by wearing such a hat they removed their ego. What the hat also did was remove their identity from prying eyes.


What it actually means: "Hey Bruce, look how tall I am with this thing!"  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> errrr... The basket looks strange. 
> Wouldn't it hinder himself when he's doing some close-range or acrobatic movements?
> It's too high, and it doesn't seem to be very comfortable...


He'll be like, I'm totally zen now, I'm just gonna sit here and play my flute, you guys go do the things.

----------


## magpieM

> He'll be like, I'm totally zen now, I'm just gonna sit here and play my flute, you guys go do the things.


 :Big Grin:  And to help to immerse himself in the zen world, I wonder if he even bother to make holes on the basket to look outside...

Well seriously, maybe he hides something in it! Some device, secret weapon?
Maybe C4? He did this kind of crazy thing before, right?

----------


## G-Potion

> And to help to immerse himself in the zen world, I wonder if he even bother to make holes on the basket to look outside...
> 
> Well seriously, maybe he hides something in it! Some device, secret weapon?
> Maybe C4? He did this kind of crazy thing before, right?


Apparently he does but either them holes are not for seeing through or he's severely short.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is in it but he doesn't look too cool. The robins seem to have rivals 
> Dick vs Penguin
> Tim vs Two face
> Damian vs Poison Ivy
> And Jason vs Deadshot


Wait is it Deadstroke or Deadshot?

----------


## Savatewolf

> Wait is it Deadstroke or Deadshot?


His eye has a scope like Deadshot

Edit: just watched the second trailer and it's definitely Deathstroke my bad, looked like a scope in the first trailer but it's just an eyepatch

----------


## RedBird

> Apparently he does but either them holes are not for seeing through or he's severely short.


Compared to Dick they made him much shorter, hell even maybe compared to Tim. I'm certain he wears the basket to regain his height XD

Also is this the first film with all four boys? Figures it would be a film with designs straying away from their own. Though I think Dick fared pretty well if you ignore the Sasuke hair.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

How come no one linked this part from the wiki?




> Komusō were characterized by a straw bascinet (a sedge or* reed hood* named a tengai or tengui) worn on the head, manifesting the absence of specific ego.


Son of a....

Also does Jason have a flute under the helmet in that poster? I thought it was a smoking pipe at first but since you guys mentioned the flutes about Komuso, do you suppose they might have incorporated that into his whole persona? Like as an intimidation tactic towards enemies, they hear a soft flute playing before they ever see him, or something along those lines.


ALSO Also, another interesting point from the wiki...




> Ninja and ronin (masterless samurai) were also known to travel in the guise of komusō to avoid official scrutiny of their presence or intentions in a province.


Makes sense.

----------


## G-Potion

> Compared to Dick they made him much shorter, hell even maybe compared to Tim. I'm certain he wears the basket to regain his height XD
> 
> Also is this the first film with all four boys? Figures it would be a film with designs straying away from their own. Though I think Dick fared pretty well if you ignore the Sasuke hair.


I like Jason's because they don't play safe with him, so he gets a design that's worth talking about and the inspiration from the Komuso monks make it even more interesting. Also it's like a nod to the All-Caste monks.

----------


## G-Potion

> How come no one linked this part from the wiki?
> 
> 
> 
> Son of a....
> 
> Also does Jason have a flute under the helmet in that poster? I thought it was a smoking pipe at first but since you guys mentioned the flutes about Komuso, do you suppose they might have incorporated that into his whole persona? Like as an intimidation tactic towards enemies, they a soft flute playing before they ever see him, or something along those lines.


Would be so cool??! I missed it because I was focused more on his weapons, which can look a bit like the flutes they use. The pipe is a bit removed from the shakuhachi but who knows.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm tempted to pick up this game just for Jason.... but man does he look expensive.


Wow so apparently they nerfed Joker to hell so that people would have to buy Red Hood.

----------


## RedBird

I think I was right in my first guess, seems it is a smoking pipe. Which makes me think that it may come into play, if there are in fact explosives in that helmet.  :Big Grin: 



EDIT: Also, I do like the spinny spinny things he does with his guns.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think I was right in my first guess, seems it is a smoking pipe. Which makes me think that it may come into play, if there are in fact explosives in that helmet.


Niceeee, Red!  :Big Grin: 

Look at him spinning his weapons. _Every_ _time_.

----------


## RedBird

Haha even their horses have masks, how extra. 

Oh and Jasons has an armor grill instead of an eye mask.

----------


## Aioros22

As someone who`s followed a number of Samurai/feudal Japan historical Manga, Jason`s design doesn`t ring strange one bit. The Komuso were used by Ronin and Ninja for assassin work and to go incognito wherever they wanted. Think of this way, the whole design and persona *is* the mask.

----------


## G-Potion

Can he play the shakuhachi well enough to pass as a komuso though?  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Haha even their horses have masks, how extra. 
> 
> Oh and Jasons has an armor grill instead of an eye mask.


Jason, always a step extra ahead  :Cool:  awesome!

About his height, not sure if he`s just shorter than Dick or he`s got no eye sockets. The baskets weren`t universally the same, so I`m wondering if his got the opening for the smoking/powder maneuvers and playing flaut or not. Ala AK.

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Being extra theatrical as he is? It`s perfect, c`mon!

----------


## TheCape

Ah Jason, don't you ever lost your artistic side.

----------


## Aioros22

The more I see this the more it`s amazing balls. Like I said in the other thread..

It`s perfect and by far the most original and balsy character design here because they went less with "cool" or too close to home and more to what his feudal concept would be. Plus, spinning guns, man. Spinning guns. Like in the case of Cowboy Bebop, by making it uncool you make it cool by default.

----------


## Aioros22

And yeah, I`ve seen this week the DLC for Jason in DC Legends for the Smartphone and holy cowl, 100 bucks? Nerfing Joker for Jay? Our boy is getting a costy rep! Not my platform but_ heck_.

----------


## G-Potion

> The more I see this the more it`s amazing balls. Like I said in the other thread..
> 
> It`s perfect and by far the most original and balsy character design here because they went less with "cool" or too close to home and more to what his feudal concept would be. Plus, spinning guns, man. Spinning guns. Like in the case of Cowboy Bebop, by making it uncool you make it cool by default.


I agree. The more it is discussed, the more I think his is the best design of the bunch. The idea is just to fitting and actually gives him a fresh look while the others look like their usual selves from a distance. And yes I like how his look doesn't need to shout "cool". You get it by reading up on the lore, ten times as cool.

----------


## G-Potion

> And yeah, I`ve seen this week the DLC for Jason in DC Legends for the Smartphone and holy cowl, 100 bucks? Nerfing Joker for Jay? Our boy is getting a costy rep! Not my platform but heck.


And he is _the_ Deathstroke terminator. So, so tempted to play this game...

----------


## Aioros22

> Ah Jason, don't you ever lost your artistic side.


Jason _extra_ Todd everyone

----------


## RedBird

Avert your gaze children, but theres already fanart of Jason and his hood [x]



I adore the addition of the pipe

----------


## Aioros22

I expected no less from the artistic side of the fanbase!

Get ready for the shower of baskets  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

Soys reaction

----------


## G-Potion

> Avert your gaze children, but theres already fanart of Jason and his hood 
> 
> I adore the addition of the pipe


Ahahaha clothes off but pipe still on.

----------


## G-Potion

> Soys reaction


And the best reply:

----------


## RedBird

> And the best reply:


JARson Todd, The Reed Hood. haha

Seriously though I'm still gobsmacked that thats the ACTUAL alternate name for this outfit. After reading what was already such a perfect description of the disguise along with its significance and the warriors/ronin/monks it was worn by, and then finally reading _that_ name, I honestly thought the wiki had been tampered with already by some 'fan'.

----------


## RedBird

Even Soy wants the 'helmet' to break XD

----------


## G-Potion

Soy pls   :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

If the basket breaks or is cut, guaranteed he`s got a mask underneath. It`s Jason Todd we`re talking about. 

Who is he seen fighting anyway? Deathstroke or Deadshot?

----------


## TheCape

> Who is he seen fighting anyway? Deathstroke or Deadshot?


I'm inclined to said Deathshot for that rigth eye.

----------


## G-Potion

> If the basket breaks or is cut, guaranteed he`s got a mask underneath. It`s Jason Todd we`re talking about. 
> 
> Who is he seen fighting anyway? Deathstroke or Deadshot?


Deathstroke. Orange/black scheme in the poster pic.

----------


## TheCape

> Deathstroke. Orange/black scheme in the poster pic.


If that is Deathstroke wouldn't make more sense for Dick to fight him?

----------


## RedBird

> If that is Deathstroke wouldn't make more sense for Dick to fight him?


Well it makes sense for Jason too, for the same reason deadshot would have also, they are both equipped with guns here. More aesthetic and skill set consistency, granted I'm not sure why 'penguin' was the choice for Dick. Thats what seems odd to me.

----------


## Aioros22

I dunno, Deaddie has been a nemesis to all the boys save Tim and in recent years he`s had run-ins with Jason, starting with Under The Red Hood where he provided the mercenary work for Black Mask to Arkham Knight where he helps Jay set up his revenge.

----------


## TheCape

> Well it makes sense for Jason too, for the same reason deadshot would have also, they are both equipped with guns here. More aesthetic and skill set consistency, granted I'm not sure why 'penguin' was the choice for Dick. Thats what seems odd to me.


I think that make a lot more sense for Dick considering the long story that they have, nothing against Jason facing him of course, i always wanted to see that. Penguin is an odd choice too and Two Face for Tim is weird too, i would have preffer King Snake for him and Harvey for either Jason or Dick.

----------


## G-Potion

> If that is Deathstroke wouldn't make more sense for Dick to fight him?


Not necessarily since no one holds a monopoly on their opponents unless it's Batman and obviously this movie is its own thing. From a logical standpoint, Jason gets to fight him in the trailer because gun fight.

----------


## RedBird

Okay last one, but I swear this person wins for the most 'in character' accuracy and Jason Todd thing.

----------


## Aioros22

She`s right, you know.

----------


## G-Potion

He did it first for dramatic effects and then it just became a thing y'know.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Cute review of DC Legends Red Hood.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason Todd. Girls dig him.

----------


## RedBird

Unmasking a Ronin [x]


I love that he went for an older version of Jason

----------


## RedBird

Also.......The white streak!

----------


## G-Potion

White streak!!

----------


## Rise

> 





> 


I laughed out loud when I saw this. Our boy is extra dramatic as always.

In all seriousness, I love the significance behind the design and how much thoughts they put in it. I'm already excited for the movie.

----------


## Aahz

> If that is Deathstroke wouldn't make more sense for Dick to fight him?


Slade is more a villain of the whole Titans Team, he is not really Dick's nemesis.

----------


## Aioros22

> Also.......The white streak!


White streak come haunting Dark again  :Wink: 

I love it, thank you Soy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> White streak come haunting Dark again 
> 
> I love it, thank you Soy.


Not really. It makes sense for an older Jason to have it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I laughed out loud when I saw this. Our boy is extra dramatic as always.
> 
> In all seriousness, I love the significance behind the design and how much thoughts they put in it. I'm already excited for the movie.


I love the design myself and the significance behind the design is so on point for Jason. I also love that all of the boys are in this for once since most of the animated movies of late have basically ignored both Jason and Tim in favor of Dick and Damian. (I believe I heard that they simply don't exist in the continuity of the current animated movie-verse which is a shame.) I'm pretty excited for this even if I think Joker is way overexposed these days. I do get tired of seeing him in everything but I do understand why he is being used here. He is Bats premier villain.

----------


## Aioros22

Lest not forget Gotham by Gaslight features the classic 3 as well, our boy included. 

His popularity outside comics shan`t be ignored.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Lest not forget Gotham by Gaslight features the classic 3 as well, our boy included. 
> 
> His popularity outside comics shan`t be ignored.


True and I am looking forward to that movie as well. I just don't understand why they chose to ignore him in the latest run of animated movies when he is so popular among fans outside of comics. People love him and I would think they would want to take advantage of that. 

In any case I'm just happy that the Batman Ninja isn't ignoring our boy. I take that as a win especially given how much attention they paid to his character when designing the costume there. It's very apropos. Its also bringing together two things I love: anime and Batman.

----------


## Aioros22

Think of it this way, that animated run had a start and an end which wasn`t universally acclaimed. 

Let`s look forward, up to 2018 where good things are coming!

----------


## Aioros22

Because smoking pipe.

http://toixx.tumblr.com/



http://jaykore.tumblr.com/post/16728...-drawn-for-the
"Drawn for the @dcubang​ event! 
 I was lucky enough to once again partner with @skalidra who wrote an amazing fic wit lots of great inspo!"

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I love the design myself and the significance behind the design is so on point for Jason. I also love that all of the boys are in this for once since most of the animated movies of late have basically ignored both Jason and Tim in favor of Dick and Damian. (I believe I heard that they simply don't exist in the continuity of the current animated movie-verse which is a shame.) I'm pretty excited for this even if I think Joker is way overexposed these days. I do get tired of seeing him in everything but I do understand why he is being used here. He is Bats premier villain.


First they said Tim and Jason didn't exist in the animated universe, but people got upset, so they said, oh, they exist, they just have never been Robin and aren't in Batman's world.

Which. Okay? That's still really shitty, making a universe where only Dick and Damian have been Robin.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> First they said Tim and Jason didn't exist in the animated universe, but people got upset, so they said, oh, they exist, they just have never been Robin and aren't in Batman's world.
> 
> Which. Okay? That's still really shitty, making a universe where only Dick and Damian have been Robin.


Yeah, though that backtracking there just ticked me off more about it since it was already clear that they didn't exist in that universe. No need to sugar coat it by saying "they exist just not in Batman's world". I get annoyed when people just don't have the balls to stand by what they've already said.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Let`s look forward, up to 2018 where good things are coming!


Lots of good things coming with the bonus that I get a Bat anime set (mainly) in feudal Japan and the character designs are perfect. Guess I can cross seeing a feudal Japan era Jason character design off my bucket list now. (The part of me that wanted to see a samurai-esque take on the character is certainly happy.)

----------


## Aioros22

Not quite, I still want to see Soy`s design in motion but that`s for another day  :Cool: 

Guys, guys, anyone able to get me a gif of the spinning guns scene of Jason? You would have my undying thanks...which is not so bad, is it?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not quite, I still want to see Soy`s design in motion but that`s for another day 
> 
> Guys, guys, anyone able to get me a gif of the spinning guns scene of Jason? You would have my undying thanks...which is not so bad, is it?


Soy's design in motion would be great too. In Soy we trust! 

Wish I could help you with that but I'm no good with gifs at all. I wanted to make an animated avatar for here but it didn't work so...  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

Thanks for trying  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

I`m really sorry about the juvenile humor but..

"indabut"


Okay okay, let me see if I can find the Gif I want.

----------


## G-Potion

Look no more!

from https://twitter.com/DemiFiendRSA/

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I`m really sorry about the juvenile humor but..
> 
> "indabut"
> 
> 
> Okay okay, let me see if I can find the Gif I want.


*chuckle*

No need to apologize for that. I was thinking that too.

----------


## Aioros22

I found some on Tumblr but it went further on and with subtitles. See, you helped me after all!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Look no more!
> 
> from https://twitter.com/DemiFiendRSA/


Thanks for finding that G.

----------


## Aioros22

http://kerolinadean.tumblr.com/


And some more in motion

----------


## G-Potion

> Not quite, I still want to see Soy`s design in motion but that`s for another day


It's already moving... a bit. :P

----------


## Aioros22

How could I forget. I wonder what WB/Dc would do if Soy pitched the project. He`s certainly passionate about it.

----------


## G-Potion

By the way it seals the deal for me that the next thing I'm drawing will be of this Red Hood.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

> Thanks for finding that G.


Is there a Thread around here just for avatars sized pictures/gif?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> By the way it seals the deal for me that the next thing I'm drawing will be of this Red Hood.


Can't wait to see it G.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is there a Thread around here just for avatars sized pictures/gif?


I thought there was but I can't seem to find it.

Edit: I see you found it already.

----------


## kiwiliko

> http://kerolinadean.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> And some more in motion


I've been eagerly waiting on gifs from tumblr so I can finally figure out which of them is dork enough to be doing the naruto run. 
Nice to know it looks like Dick and Jason are going to be the two dorks, this calls for fanart.

----------


## RedBird

So in the trailer we see Batman clearly transported to this world but not the others. Is it confirmed that all these characters were transported here, batfam,catwoman,the joker, poison etc...

Or is it that these people ARE native to this world and that they lost THEIR batman?

----------


## RedBird

[x] Its a lamp  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

Oh I just realised, Jason really is a Red Lantern. Go figure :P

----------


## RedBird

0yongyong0

Brotherly teasing and the horrifying truth

----------


## RedBird

Bonus


The speculations continue

----------


## G-Potion

Oh wow. Damian looking terrified.  :Cool: 

Also the white streak here is a thing of wonder.

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Its a lamp


Let's just say this costume against all odds is well embraced by the fandom. XD

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

Woah! Is that meant to be Arty?

----------


## G-Potion

With that hair, possibly. (and the scars?)

----------


## Aioros22

Pretty sure it`s our Amazon princess.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> 


Really looking forward to this issue.

Our asian friends are already starting to make the real questions about Jason's design



https://twitter.com/LetmedieALONE/st...38957428793345

----------


## Aioros22

So I went to Dick`s Thread (full credit to nigthbird for the info disclosure) and came across new stuff from the upcoming Titans show and more importantly the Robin role. 

It might be relevant to check, mostly because of the earlier casting call list and quote:

[DANIEL CROSS Male, 17-19, Caucasian. Athletic, street smart, cocky, yet charming. His life is changed forever when he crosses a crime fighter and is given a new outlet for his rebellious ways. RECURRING GUEST STAR]

https://www.cbr.com/titans-casting-breakdown/amp/

Some speculations are in order, one of them being obviously Roy (which I don`t believe it will because of the Arrow show) and Danny Chase (alto that doesn`t sound like his character origin at all), so that leaves a young Jason who will eventually grow into the role? 



And Dick`s look *does* resemble Jason`s AK suit alot.

----------


## RedBird

[x] Art from the same artist

----------


## Aioros22

In fact...

[IMG]http://s019.***********/i642/1712/7c/259c79e4e31c.jpg[/IMG]






It also resembles the BvsS suit.

----------


## RedBird

> [DANIEL CROSS Male, 17-19, Caucasian. Athletic, street smart, cocky, yet charming. His life is changed forever when he crosses a crime fighter and is given a new outlet for his rebellious ways. RECURRING GUEST STAR]
> 
> And Dick`s look *does* resemble Jason`s AK suit alot.


Two birds One show

Nice  :Smile: 

And I'm not surprised by the similarities, I think the Arkham have created quite the impact over the years.

----------


## G-Potion

> So I went to Dick`s Thread (full credit to nigthbird for the info disclosure) and came across new stuff from the upcoming Titans show and more importantly the Robin role. 
> 
> It might be relevant to check, mostly because of the earlier casting call list and quote:
> 
> [DANIEL CROSS Male, 17-19, Caucasian. Athletic, street smart, cocky, yet charming. His life is changed forever when he crosses a crime fighter and is given a new outlet for his rebellious ways. RECURRING GUEST STAR]
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/titans-casting-breakdown/amp/
> 
> Some speculations are in order, one of them being obviously Roy (which I don`t believe it will because of the Arrow show) and Danny Chase (alto that doesn`t sound like his character origin at all), so that leaves a young Jason who will eventually grow into the role?


I watched a video discussion about this, and they even speculated that it's Roy, and the crime fighter he crossed path with would be Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> Really looking forward to this issue.
> 
> Our asian friends are already starting to make the real questions about Jason's design
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/LetmedieALONE/st...38957428793345


Yeah, the Basket mask is very stylized in that poster image  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Art from the same artist


He looks good like this wow.

----------


## Aioros22

While that would be sweeeet, it would only work after Dick graduates in the same show for awhile.

----------


## RedBird

That baskets gotta be swaying somethin shocking [x]

----------


## G-Potion

One thing for sure is that Red Basket chibis are gonna be even cuter than Red Hood's.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Our asian friends are already starting to make the real questions about Jason's design
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/LetmedieALONE/st...38957428793345


In all fairness the animation is from the JJBA people, who are not above sacrificing anatomy and physics to look stylized.

----------


## G-Potion

@Aioros: Saw your avatar request!

----------


## RedBird

Damn the art just keeps on comin [X]

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah. 

Just FYI but it`s precious looking some people wondering what the heck he`s got in his head and I just laugh (and try to pass what little knowledge I got) because it`s so damn perfect. They really worked in _knowing_ the character. Not only is what assasins or spies would use to go incognito as the perfect disguise (because Zen priests were allowed to roam freely in locations and buildings where others would not) it`s what ronin (contrary to Lord abidden Samurai) would be allowed to use for their paid work. But the master stroke is that being equally what Zen priests would use as standard gear it diretly ties both to Jason`s backstory as a _Monk_ of the All Caste and a _priest_ in Flashpoint.

----------


## G-Potion

So I take it unlike the pill helmet, people are secretly loving this one. At least artists do. XD

----------


## Aioros22

The pill case was totally Morrison Kitch. This instead it`s going to warm people up after the initial reaction. 

But it`s working regardless, the attention looks to be on Jason and Damian and very little on the rest so far.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah. 
> 
> Just FYI but it`s precious looking some people wondering what the heck he`s got in his head and I just laugh (and try to pass what little knowledge I got) because it`s so damn perfect. They really worked in _knowing_ the character. Not only is what assasins or spies would use to go incognito as the perfect disguise (because Zen priests were allowed to roam freely in locations and buildings where others would not) it`s what ronin (contrary to Lord abidden Samurai) would be allowed to use for their paid work. But the master stroke is that being equally what Zen priests would use as standard gear it diretly ties both to Jason`s backstory as a _Monk_ of the All Caste and a _priest_ in Flashpoint.


Yes, I saw some people go "monk wtf???" and knew they didn't read N52. Jason, even your religious practice is extra. Catholicism _and_ Buddhism?

----------


## sakuyamons

I hope Jason’s voice on Bat ninja is your typical rival character voice, if you watch anime, you know it. With the deep voice and all of that

----------


## RedBird

[x]
God knows how much taller it could have been.

----------


## Aioros22

The deep raspy voice that makes fangirl swoon? You betcha and I hopeah. 

@t G Arigato for the avatar!!

And of course he`d go extra religion. You can never have too many Gods in your side  :Wink:

----------


## Fergus

> 


Jason's found himself a keeper. I didn't think it was physically possible for Artemis to get any finer but clearly I was very mistaken.

----------


## Fergus

> [x]
> God knows how much taller it could have been.


That's funny.

----------


## G-Potion

> [x]
> God knows how much taller it could have been.


Jason are you doing a bamboo version of the beanstalk story? 

Seriously though, I just love how sarcastic his pipe looks.

----------


## RedBird

> Seriously though, I just love how sarcastic his pipe looks.


RIGHT? The pipe was a fantastic edition.

This whole outfit just screams, 'I don't give a damn what you think', and the added casual vibe of the pipe? _perfect._

----------


## EMarie

> 


Neat touch with what appears to be scars. Interesting earrings from what I can see of them. 

I want to see how Jason dressed up now especially since we're currently discussing his fashion choices.

----------


## G-Potion

> Neat touch with what appears to be scars. Interesting earrings from what I can see of them. 
> 
> I want to see how Jason dressed up now especially since we're currently discussing his fashion choices.


Hopefully Lobdell keeps it consistent with N52 where Jason can dress up _really_ well when he wants to.

----------


## G-Potion

Do you think he will do his hair for the occasion?

----------


## EMarie

I think that's more of the artist's choice? Unless Lobdell has Artemis commenting on it but she'd probably do that regardless.

Edit: You mean like gel it back? Maybe but he didn't do anything with Isabel.

----------


## RedBird

A Marcus To commission of Discowing and RobinJay [x]

----------


## G-Potion

> I think that's more of the artist's choice? Unless Lobdell has Artemis commenting on it but she'd probably do that regardless.
> 
> Edit: You mean like gel it back? Maybe but he didn't do anything with Isabel.


I'm not sure, seeing as how Jason was always well-dressed in the right occasions despite RHATO having several artists, I thought Lobdell would have had a say in it.

Yeah that's what I meant. With Isabel, he didn't need to do anything then to be fair. His hair was already awesome.  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

> Do you think he will do his hair for the occasion?


A cruel part of me almost wants him to look gobsmacked and kinda dreary next to Artemiss amazonian light and beauty.

But I kid I kid, we all know he cleans up well. I'm sure with Takaras art he will look splendid, glad to see that Takara is working on this months ahead of release and that it clearly wont be rushed.

----------


## RedBird

ooh hold the phone, more Marcus To commisions [x]

----------


## G-Potion

> A cruel part of me almost wants him to look gobsmacked and kinda dreary next to Artemiss amazonian light and beauty.
> 
> But I kid I kid, we all know he cleans up well. I'm sure with Takaras art he will look splendid, glad to see that Takara is working on this months ahead of release and that it clearly wont be rushed.


Artemis better be in stilettos. Jason would be so miserable next to her.

----------


## G-Potion

MUGEN Red Hood. Not bad, not bad.

----------


## RedBird

> @Aioros: Saw your avatar request!


Do avatars have to be a certain size? I can't recall. Found this gif on tumblr though if anyone was still interested.



(God, the spinning guns are so damn cool)

----------


## RedBird

> MUGEN Red Hood. Not bad, not bad.


???

May I have context please, cause thats pretty cool  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Do avatars have to be a certain size? I can't recall. Found this gif on tumblr though if anyone was still interested.


Has to be maximum 120px and smaller than 39.1 kb, so that's a lot of frames to shave off.

----------


## G-Potion

> ???
> 
> May I have context please, cause thats pretty cool


Basically a fighting game engine so that people can make their own characters and movesets.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

@t G

Is that gif larger than the other? The resolution seems crispier. 

Would I be abusing your good faith too much if I asked if you could avatar size it?

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G
> 
> Is that gif larger than the other? The resolution seems crispier. 
> 
> Would I be abusing your good faith too much if I asked if you could avatar size it?


The resolution doesn't matter much because you can't keep it in 32 colors/with higher preset since the size would exceed 39.1kb. 

But in anycase, this one does seem more vibrant so I went ahead and edited it so you can choose the version you prefer.

----------


## RedBird

Yeah its hard to keep it at a good resolution or length. I had to cut the length to keep the color.

the first is shorter but sharper



The second is full length but not as high in quality. You can tell by the slight colour difference.

----------


## G-Potion

Or slower

----------


## Aioros22

Thank you guys, yous da best  :Smile:  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

So for people who haven't watched the trailer, I wonder what this looks like to them. A humanoid basket?  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

AAAANd first one (short one) SLowed down 



Full length SLowed as well



Edit: oh my bad, your done.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

You got it smoothed out better though. What program did you use to edit it?

----------


## RedBird

> So for people who haven't watched the trailer, I wonder what this looks like to them. A humanoid basket?


Ridiculous.

I can't say I blame people, under a modern gaze, yeah I guess the outrageous and bold design choices of old Japan do look peculiar. But I'm honestly a happy camper, I went from thinking, _huh_? To_ 'well it may be goofy but at least its got history'_ to_ 'actually you know, thats pretty damn intimidating'_ .  :Smile: 

Seriously whose gonna mess with a guy who walks around wearing that. Thats someone with nothing left to lose I tells ya.

----------


## RedBird

> You got it smoothed out better though. What program did you use to edit it?


Thanks, I use Photoshop cs5

----------


## G-Potion

> Thanks, I use Photoshop cs5


Aah I see. I used CS6 and I'm obviously missing something here so they didn't turn out as good. Time to research!

----------


## G-Potion

> Ridiculous.
> 
> I can't say I blame people, under a modern gaze, yeah I guess the outrageous and bold design choices of old Japan do look peculiar. But I'm honestly a happy camper, I went from thinking, _huh_? To_ 'well it may be goofy but at least its got history'_ to_ 'actually you know, thats pretty damn intimidating'_ . 
> 
> Seriously whose gonna mess with a guy who walks around wearing that. Thats someone with nothing left to lose I tells ya.


I get your sentiment. I was exactly the same. Though I was talking more about people being pretty lost looking at this without any context at all.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> Aah I see. I used CS6 and I'm obviously missing something here so they didn't turn out as good. Time to research!


Cutting the length helped otherwise I only played with the colour ratio. Note, sometimes the estimates given for the size from PH in the 'web devices export' tab can be WAY higher than they actually are, click preview and see them in internet explorer (its all its good for now :P), It will provide a more accurate gif size estimate and other calculations as well as a preview of the gif which can be saved without using photoshop to export the frames into a gif.

----------


## RedBird

I was wondering about this [x]

Doorways must be a nightmare

----------


## G-Potion

> Cutting the length helped otherwise I only played with the colour ratio. Note, sometimes the estimates given for the size from PH in the 'web devices export' tab can be WAY higher than they actually are, click preview and see them in internet explorer (its all its good for now :P), It will provide a more accurate gif size estimate and other calculations as well as a preview of the gif which can be saved without using photoshop to export the frames into a gif.


Darn I shouldn't have trusted you Photoshop.

----------


## G-Potion

Since Ikemen Jason hasn't had due attention so far, I'm bringing him back in. How does he look so far?

----------


## RedBird

Here's another piece but its *semi* nsfw art of Reed Hood. I guess fanartists really can make anything 'sexy'. XD
I won't post here, but link is below if your curious to see more Reed Hood art regardless. 
Don't worry its not that bad, I just dont know if the mods are strict about that sort of thing.
[x]

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

> Since Ikemen Jason hasn't had due attention so far, I'm bringing him back in. How does he look so far?


I think he looks beautiful. I'm waiting for the colour version before I make a final final verdict but honestly he actually looks better than even the Nightwing figure to me. (I reckon they made Nightwings face just a tad too long imo.)

But so far with Jason the pose looks lovely, the outfit is great, the face is pretty, as is the hair. I hope they stick to the 2d art and give him the white streak.  :Big Grin: 

I also love the added touch of the delicate little hand and raised pinky on his left.

----------


## G-Potion

> Here's another piece but its *semi* nsfw art of Reed Hood. I guess fanartists really can make anything 'sexy'. XD
> I won't post here, but link is below if your curious to see more Reed Hood art regardless. 
> Don't worry its not that bad, I just dont know if the mods are strict about that sort of thing.
> [x]


It's hot not gonna lie.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think he looks beautiful. I'm waiting for the colour version before I make a final final verdict but honestly he actually looks better than even the Nightwing figure to me. (I reckon they made Nightwings face just a tad too long imo.)
> 
> But so far with Jason the pose looks lovely, the outfit is great, the face is pretty, as is the hair. I hope they stick to the 2d art and give him the white streak. 
> 
> I also love the added touch of the delicate little hand and raised pinky on his left.


I honestly missed the undercut in the 2d art. For a moment I thought they changed his hair. But he looks very good so far.

----------


## G-Potion

Dami playing samisen rock and Jason who can't actually play the shakuhachi.   :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

[x] I knew it

Stop robbing him of his height dc :P

----------


## G-Potion

Calling the whole thing off if Ikemen Jason is not taller than Dick.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

> Dami playing samisen rock and Jason who can't actually play the shakuhachi.


Haha, I feel Damian just put him on the spot and now he cant back down.

You know even if this film doesnt deliver on even a few of the little tidbits that I'm hoping for, like the cool voice, smoking pipe bomb, actual flute use, etc this AU is gonna be a fun ride thanks to artists and fan writers regardless.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Haha, I feel Damian just put him on the spot and now he cant back down.
> 
> You know even if this film doesnt deliver on even a few of the little tidbits that I'm hoping for, like the cool voice, smoking pipe bomb, actual flute use, etc this AU is gonna be a fun ride thanks to artists and fan writers regardless.


I know! Just the idea of Jason as a komuso is already so worth it, it's gonna haunt me and my creative process for a while.

----------


## RedBird

Biz and a bit of Arty from Marcio Takara

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Wew, Bizarro is a noticeable downgrade from the Artemis previously posted.

As for the Ikemen figure, I don't like the face but is a moot point since it will include the helmet.

The artFX figure is still the best one tho.

----------


## RedBird

Awww all the boys
Marcus To [x]

----------


## Aioros22

> Edit: oh my bad, your done.


Fear not, I end up having more options to use along than I tought I`d have  :Wink:

----------


## RedBird

Mrs_Wilson _'Jason Todd smiling'_

----------


## Assam

> Awww all the boys
> Marcus To [x]


Not sure who made this, but I'll do you one better. 

batstreet boys.jpg

 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## sakuyamons

Marcos To should draw every Batbook  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Not sure who made this, but I'll do you one better. 
> 
> batstreet boys.jpg


Ah, the perfect group

_I want it that way_

----------


## magpieM

> Haha, I feel Damian just put him on the spot and now he cant back down.
> 
> You know even if this film doesnt deliver on even a few of the little tidbits that I'm hoping for, like the cool voice, smoking pipe bomb, actual flute use, etc this AU is gonna be a fun ride thanks to artists and fan writers regardless.


Oh exactly! After the initial shock and confusion, now I find that it is a really fantastic (and also amusing) design! I'm intrigued by what's behind the 'basket'.




> Yes, I saw some people go "monk wtf???" and knew they didn't read N52. Jason, even your religious practice is extra. Catholicism _and_ Buddhism?


Not sure how religious he would be in the story. Komuso was also a common disguise for assassins and Ninja warriors to hide their identity to catch their enemies off guard when they were close enough. But I just double checked. It seems that cutting hair was not required for Komuso (phew...), even if Jason is very into that in the story. 


Edit: Otherwise, it would be another shock for me if he's actually bald behind the basket.

----------


## oasis1313

> Awww all the boys
> Marcus To [x]


Awww, these are so cute.  An ongoing with the 4 of them would sell like crazy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The way we'll look with the new DC logo

----------


## RedBird

> The way we'll look with the new DC logo


Huh. Interesting. Is that batman logo featured on all the 'batbooks' or on anything under the bat office, or has dcs subtlety dropped further more that they can no longer conceal how much the company rides on batman. :P

Also wait. Is rebirth over? Isnt there some kind of universe changing event coming or am I trippin?

----------


## Caivu

> Also wait. Is rebirth over? Isnt there some kind of universe changing event coming or am I trippin?


The Rebirth branding is over next week. It's a cosmetic change.

----------


## G-Potion

http://akmmmm.lofter.com/

----------


## RedBird

SO MUCH AMAZING ART!!!

[x]


[x]


[x]

----------


## G-Potion

Wow it's like after the "poking fun" arts, now artists go serious mode.  :EEK!:

----------


## RedBird

Marcus To at it again [x]

----------


## adrikito

> The way we'll look with the new DC logo


I prefer Red Hood helmet than a bat..

----------


## G-Potion

> Marcus To at it again [x]


Looks like he's been getting quite a few Jason commissions.

----------


## TheCape

Marcus To is amazing, whatever my feelings are about Red Robin, the whole thing was pretty to look at for the most part.

----------


## RedBird

[x]

Keep em comin

----------


## Aioros22

Talking about this in the other Thread but what do you folks think about the Joker/Jason relationship? Do you think what has been done is enough he`d consider Jason a particular draw of attention out of anyone save Harley and Bruce? 




> He didn't cripple Babs to screw with Batman though. He definitely does involve Jason to screw with Bats.


Barbara was a prop (which is one if the main reasons even Moore considers it his most tasteless story ever) to make Gordon go mad and prove Batman that all it takes is one bad day. He involves both, that`s not the thing. The thing is, ever since then and over the years his relationship with Jason _grew_ into something actual personal to him. Hence why in DOFT, Jason is the one character unca Joker leaves a present in the end for, as contigency plan. Hence why in Genesis, Joker remarks it`s not only about Batman, but also him, _this kid_. Because he`s had the potential to be like Batman or himself. 







In Barbara`s case, she`s been haunted by what Joker did but from the Joker`s side, he doesn`t seem to care about her as much. What more, in Ninja, we still don`t know if everyone went back in time of just Joker and Bats but would you like a line about it or not? Not necessarily the death aspect, altho with Jay being a ronin geared as a Zen priest a physolophical take would work but just the aknowledgment of the relationship itself.

----------


## RedBird

Well considering he sometimes seems to enjoy taunting Jason in ways which Bruce would never be privy too (like in DOTF) and seems to be only for Jokers own amusement and Jasons disdain, then I think Jasons 'role' in this whole ordeal goes beyond being a tool or bridge between Joker and Batman. Like you said, its 'you, me and the kid', its a trio of sorts. Besides I think the fact that the taunting wasn't one sided anymore after DITF, and Jason actively taunted both Bruce in UTRH and Joker by usurping his prior identity, means that Jason ultimately forced his way in between the 'Batman and Joker feud', rising from a victim of circumstance to an active participant and aggressor in this relationship, whether he sees it that way or not. Though as said, its a _trio_, not quite an even, one on one deal, at least not in my eyes as of yet. That being said I am morbidly curious to see even more stories of Joker and Jason coming face to face without Batmans presence in the story both physically and narratively, something akin to Jasons rivalry with BM in rebirth, though understandably that would be difficult seeing as its a big ptsd issue for Jason.

----------


## RedBird

[x] Perhaps.....We are just not worthy of seeing him in all his glory :P




The mystery lives on....

----------


## RedBird

[x]

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Talking about this in the other Thread but what do you folks think about the Joker/Jason relationship? Do you think what has been done is enough he`d consider Jason a particular draw of attention out of anyone save Harley and Bruce?


I would think so. The N52 nonsense about Joker being extremely involved in Jason's life aside Jason's death impacted both of them as did his return. Barbara just doesn't have the same type of connection with Joker. She wasn't specifically targeted as "Batgirl" in TKJ nor was she actively Batgirl at the time she was shot whereas Jason's was killed because he was Robin. The circumstances are different. 

I would like to see if there is any type of interaction between Jason and the Joker in Batman Ninja though. I think there needs to be something there at any rate because, in my mind at least, even though Joker IS Batman main advisory he became one of Jason's as well the moment he raised that crowbar with the intent on murdering Robin as well as his mother. (She may have betrayed Jason but he still attempted to save her anyway.) At this point the two are as intertwined as Batman and Joker are.




> In Barbara`s case, she`s been haunted by what Joker did but from the Joker`s side, he doesn`t seem to care about her as much. What more, in Ninja, we still don`t know if everyone went back in time of just Joker and Bats but would you like a line about it or not? Not necessarily the death aspect, altho with Jay being a ronin geared as a Zen priest a physolophical take would work but just the aknowledgment of the relationship itself.


Yeah, I don't believe that Joker is all that interested in continually going after Barbara. Other then DoTF I can't think of a time when he has even bothered to do so, at least not off the top of my head anyway. I would looks some acknowledgment of their relationship though in this film especially if it IS actually Jason there and not some character from that time playing his role. Honestly I'd rather that the boys were transported there as well instead of the later.

Also loving all the art. Thanks to all of you who are posting it.

----------


## RedBird

Man I thought the piece of art I linked from two or three pages ago was nsfw haha. 
This ones a tad more naughty, though nothing explicit I promise you, just naughty.
I just want to include as much* Reed Hood* art here as I can, and boy howdy, artists sure are having 'fun' with this theme and design. Links below.
crow-sizna

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Talking about this in the other Thread but what do you folks think about the Joker/Jason relationship? Do you think what has been done is enough he`d consider Jason a particular draw of attention out of anyone save Harley and Bruce? 
> 
> Barbara was a prop (which is one if the main reasons even Moore considers it his most tasteless story ever) to make Gordon go mad and prove Batman that all it takes is one bad day. He involves both, that`s not the thing. The thing is, ever since then and over the years his relationship with Jason _grew_ into something actual personal to him. Hence why in DOFT, Jason is the one character unca Joker leaves a present in the end for, as contigency plan. Hence why in Genesis, Joker remarks it`s not only about Batman, but also him, _this kid_. Because he`s had the potential to be like Batman or himself. 
> 
> In Barbara`s case, she`s been haunted by what Joker did but from the Joker`s side, he doesn`t seem to care about her as much. What more, in Ninja, we still don`t know if everyone went back in time of just Joker and Bats but would you like a line about it or not? Not necessarily the death aspect, altho with Jay being a ronin geared as a Zen priest a physolophical take would work but just the aknowledgment of the relationship itself.


Nah.

Besides the N52 version that made the whole thing about Jason's death more personal, Joker has never shown any real interest on Jason as individual, treating him only as a prop to hurt Batman.

EDIT:

Actually, not even the N52 version cares much about Jason. The whole DOTF thing was completely about Bruce and while Joker did rub on Jason's face their alleged connection it was more Joker being him than wanting to hurt Jason more. The thing that made me realize this was how Joker bothered to call the EMIT to save Isabel despite her dying would've hurt Jason much more.

----------


## magpieM

I think it's personal only on Jason's side, not on Joker's side. 

Joker ended his life as Robin ('He took me away from you');
It revealed the fact that Batman wouldn't kill Joker to revenge for him as he (once) wished; 
It also revealed how little he meant to his birth mother through all those years.

Those personal facts were only for Jason to suffer. Joker only cares when it can get to Batman. 
(EDIT: Honestly I don't even believe Harley ever meant anything to Joker at all)

----------


## TheCape

> Man I thought the piece of art I linked from two or three pages ago was nsfw haha.*
> This ones a tad more naughty, though nothing explicit I promise you, just naughty.
> I just want to include as much*Reed Hood*art here as I can, and boy howdy, artists sure are having 'fun' with this theme and design. Links below.
> crow-sizna


Huh, i was wondering how much time it was going to took for the fandom to come with this one, they impress me.

----------


## G-Potion

> Man I thought the piece of art I linked from two or three pages ago was nsfw haha. 
> This ones a tad more naughty, though nothing explicit I promise you, just naughty.
> I just want to include as much* Reed Hood* art here as I can, and boy howdy, artists sure are having 'fun' with this theme and design. Links below.
> crow-sizna


Keep it coming, Red! Let's not miss any in this _basket_ of goodness.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Perhaps.....We are just not worthy of seeing him in all his glory :P
> 
> The mystery lives on....


The mystery is also the different reactions from Tim and Dick. :P

----------


## G-Potion

> Well considering he sometimes seems to enjoy taunting Jason in ways which Bruce would never be privy too (like in DOTF) and seems to be only for Jokers own amusement and Jasons disdain, then I think Jasons 'role' in this whole ordeal goes beyond being a tool or bridge between Joker and Batman. Like you said, its 'you, me and the kid', its a trio of sorts. Besides I think the fact that the taunting wasn't one sided anymore after DITF, and Jason actively taunted both Bruce in UTRH and Joker by usurping his prior identity, means that Jason ultimately forced his way in between the 'Batman and Joker feud', rising from a victim of circumstance to an active participant and aggressor in this relationship, whether he sees it that way or not. Though as said, its a _trio_, not quite an even, one on one deal, at least not in my eyes as of yet. That being said I am morbidly curious to see even more stories of Joker and Jason coming face to face without Batmans presence in the story both physically and narratively, something akin to Jasons rivalry with BM in rebirth, though understandably that would be difficult seeing as its a big ptsd issue for Jason.


Yeah, uneven would be the way to describe this trio. With the increasing stories favoring the Joker/Batman side of the triangle, of course Jason's less and less gonna look the part. It's not a bad thing though, as Jason should above obsessing about it by now (ptsd still stays though). That said, I probably won't want to see more Joker/Jason unless it's to kill/incapacitate Joker in a big way, which for sure won't happen. Anything remotely like what Joker has with Batman would just make Jason look bad imo.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy how come Weibo gets this and we don't.

----------


## G-Potion

> Mrs_Wilson _'Jason Todd smiling'_


WIP clip of this beauty.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av16889273/

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I finally got Injustice 2 and while the game is fun and Jason is a beast, I must say that it really grinds my gears how lame his guns look. I know they couldn't go full realistic but the damn things look like toys.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I finally got Injustice 2 and while the game is fun and Jason is a beast, I must say that it really grinds my gears how lame his guns look. I know they couldn't go full realistic but the damn things look like toys.


Ohhh actually? I heard from others he was hard to get used to because his powerset was more balanced than specialties but hey I guess if Gs videos here showed anything it's that the gaming community is treating Jason well. 

Toy guns or no I'll always be down for his chucks empty gun in opponents face move.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep he's generally considered top tier, but also a hard to use character.

----------


## G-Potion

@Kiwi: any komuso Jason you're planning to draw?  :Cool:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Man I thought the piece of art I linked from two or three pages ago was nsfw haha. 
> This ones a tad more naughty, though nothing explicit I promise you, just naughty.
> I just want to include as much* Reed Hood* art here as I can, and boy howdy, artists sure are having 'fun' with this theme and design. Links below.
> crow-sizna


I lost a mouthful of juice thanks to this, artists are definitely having fun with it.

Can't help it though. The more I look at their designs the more it grows on me and it looks like Damian's going through the same thing. Gotta give kudos where kudos are due. They're not conventionally cool looking the way Dick and Tim had it but whoever did the costume research really went with it. The sheer amount of new Jay and Dami art is magnificent.

----------


## magpieM

> Soy how come Weibo gets this and we don't.


Is this and the one called 'Kiss my bullets' supposed to be in issue #20?
Issue #18 for January will be Bizarro Reborn part five, based on the solicitations;
#19 is for the 'date', without Bizarro Reborn label.

So #20 will probably be part six? The suit guy should show up again around that time.

What if Jason is pointing his gun at him?

----------


## kiwiliko

> @Kiwi: any komuso Jason you're planning to draw?


Ohhhh heck yes. I have so many theories about he must be hiding under his tall reed hood there will never be enough time to do them all.

Was also secretly hoping there'd be more myth-like ideas explored in the movie just so I could have an excuse to finish an origin of names series for the Batfam. I mean it's a far shot but I definitely would've loved to see something kitsune/fox related or Dragon related given their last names. (Jason TODD => fox, Drake => dragon and Cain=>shepherd from Abel and Cain maybe, still debating this bit for Cass.)
And if no one minds and there's no mod rules against posting works in progresses...


Shamelessly unrelated too but here's that charm design from last time that's not becoming a charm because my dumb brain thought this was magically going to fit on a 2 inch piece of plastic so is now an avatar. 


@G please, I need to know. Will you join me in this Komuso Jason crusade.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ohhhh heck yes. I have so many theories about he must be hiding under his tall reed hood there will never be enough time to do them all.
> 
> Was also secretly hoping there'd be more myth-like ideas explored in the movie just so I could have an excuse to finish an origin of names series for the Batfam. I mean it's a far shot but I definitely would've loved to see something kitsune/fox related or Dragon related given their last names. (Jason TODD => fox, Drake => dragon and Cain=>shepherd from Abel and Cain maybe, still debating this bit for Cass.)
> And if no one minds and there's no mod rules against posting works in progresses...
> 
> 
> Shamelessly unrelated too but here's that charm design from last time that's not becoming a charm because my dumb brain thought this was magically going to fit on a 2 inch piece of plastic so is now an avatar.


Holy cow those look seriously amazing, kiwi!! 

I love how the composition of the fox one turns out. And even as WIP the colors are so delicious already.

Second one, as an avatar it just doesn't do it justice I honestly didn't even notice the outlaws in it. But wow, so many details and I love how gorgeous everything look. Artemis is like, I'm sinking because I refuse to let go of my axe so you're going down with me too.  :Cool: 





> @G please, I need to know. Will you join me in this Komuso Jason crusade.


You bet!! I'm always so in love with Jason art in Asian themes. Add Buddhism into the mix too? Sign me the hell up.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Holy hell what is the chance!! Just as we're discussing Joker.

----------


## G-Potion

Jesus and now it's Batman.

----------


## Assam

By Pulchrally on tumblr 

gymbros.jpg

----------


## DragonPiece

any more good jason artemis pics?

----------


## Kratos767

1510022305797.jpg someone have original pic or downloaded the pic ?

----------


## RedBird

First time trying on clothing.
[x]


Its Jason. Of course he wears a basket under the basket.
[x]


Aww, Jason and Alfie
[x]

----------


## RedBird

> By Pulchrally on tumblr


Ooh ya beat me to it! 
Ah, the _'bitter editors and writers tried to screw us over the most'_ children. My fave siblings.
Hopefully when Cass starts recovering more I'll get to see them together for once.

----------


## RedBird

> Ohhhh heck yes. I have so many theories about he must be hiding under his tall reed hood there will never be enough time to do them all.
> 
> Was also secretly hoping there'd be more myth-like ideas explored in the movie just so I could have an excuse to finish an origin of names series for the Batfam. I mean it's a far shot but I definitely would've loved to see something kitsune/fox related or Dragon related given their last names. (Jason TODD => fox, Drake => dragon and Cain=>shepherd from Abel and Cain maybe, still debating this bit for Cass.)
> 
> Shamelessly unrelated too but here's that charm design from last time that's not becoming a charm because my dumb brain thought this was magically going to fit on a 2 inch piece of plastic so is now an avatar.


That charm is absolutely beautiful Kiwi, and the w.i.p looks great as well, I'm already loving the composition.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Holy hell what is the chance!! Just as we're discussing Joker.


Ha, speak of the devil.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Ohhhh heck yes. I have so many theories about he must be hiding under his tall reed hood there will never be enough time to do them all.
> 
> Was also secretly hoping there'd be more myth-like ideas explored in the movie just so I could have an excuse to finish an origin of names series for the Batfam. I mean it's a far shot but I definitely would've loved to see something kitsune/fox related or Dragon related given their last names. (Jason TODD => fox, Drake => dragon and Cain=>shepherd from Abel and Cain maybe, still debating this bit for Cass.)
> And if no one minds and there's no mod rules against posting works in progresses...
> 
> Shamelessly unrelated too but here's that charm design from last time that's not becoming a charm because my dumb brain thought this was magically going to fit on a 2 inch piece of plastic so is now an avatar. 
> 
> @G please, I need to know. Will you join me in this Komuso Jason crusade.


These are awesome!

----------


## G-Potion

补刀羊毛白崇宁 on weibo

----------


## JasonTodd428

> 


Nice work. I love the colors and that bottom one is very cute. The avatar doesn't do it justice at all. 




> By Pulchrally on tumblr 
> 
> Attachment 58749


Nice one Assam. This pic only makes me want Cass and Jason to bond more. I think they would have a very interesting dynamic and its a direction that's never been explored so I could see it having potential.

----------


## RedBird

Even Soy gets it  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

Jason and Dick chillin
[x]

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason and Dick chillin
> [x]


The atmospheric kind of art. My favourite.

----------


## RedBird

[x]

----------


## Assam

> Nice one Assam. This pic only makes me want Cass and Jason to bond more. I think they would have a very interesting dynamic and its a direction that's never been explored so I could see it having potential.


I think someone brings this up every time a new piece of Cass and Jason art comes out (It helps that art of the two is usually really, really good) So much in common, so much that contrasts, the biggest leather jacket enthusiasts of the family, it could be amazing. Brought this up before, but if you go on AO3, there are some legitimately great stories about the two, both dramatic and comedic ones, which handily beat anything DC's done with the Bat book in many years.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah.
> 
> Besides the N52 version that made the whole thing about Jason's death more personal, Joker has never shown any real interest on Jason as individual, treating him only as a prop to hurt Batman.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Actually, not even the N52 version cares much about Jason. The whole DOTF thing was completely about Bruce and while Joker did rub on Jason's face their alleged connection it was more Joker being him than wanting to hurt Jason more. The thing that made me realize this was how Joker bothered to call the EMIT to save Isabel despite her dying would've hurt Jason much more.


Isabel not being considered worthy of any use to traumatize Jason lends credit to what I am saying. He doesn`t try to traumatize and get into Bruce`s head with random killings, he goes for the simbolic meaning. Isabel didn`t fit in the narrative he wanted to sell and that narative line is a personal one. Uneven or recent trend as it may, the vibe I get is that some writers (not all granted, I know) see dramatic potential in that same narrative hook, especially in late years. Not for Jason to be in any way, shape or form his factual son but for the Joker to eye Jason in a more especific lense other than stage propping for Batman`s grief which is obviously what I am not interested in. 

New52 gave us an (in)famous full issue insight to Joker`s thoughts. It matters little what of it is true or not because the main hook and sink is the simbology view it gives us, not how much of an unreliable narrator he tends to be. Like in the end of DOTF shows, when Jaosn asks Bruce about it "None of us made you. You made yourself". That`s the sort of simbology I am aiming at. That devilish bond whose string Jason has been trying to busry since he returned. 

Loedbell also used Joker`s Daugther to touch upon the same note, since she considers Jay directly "family" and again while not beeing true at least in simbolic terms. This line about the three of them (B, J and J) being family is first touched upon in Under The Red Hood: 

"We`re one big happy family"

- "Yes, I like to think so.."

Loedbell isn`t that alone in this. Tomasi`s Genesis also gives us glimpes of this, even if not in such a direct approach for the reader. Almost as he actually warms up for him, for his potential, for him to be something Harley Queen, who is basically dumped for Jason - could never be. That promise as we all know takes light in Arkham Knight proper. In Arkham Knight Jason is not merely the last coup the grace against Batman. He`s not merely a prop, a thing, a weapon. Jason was effectively shaped to be Joker`s legacy. As he is dying he choses Jason to become something that will carry on his madness on the city, unleashed, untouched. This is the main reason Joker let him live, so his legacy and potential could be fullfilled. This is also why he brands him "You`re mine and my own" whereas Harley was easily diched up and discarted as worthy or useful to continue his work post morten. 

Miller in The Last Crusade also touches upon this quite directly. His murder on the kid isn`t merely a taunt. He actively hates this one but he also can`t wait to play with him which is its basic form, is the relationship he shares with Bruce. Love to Hate to infatuation. Sexual innuendo asides.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think someone brings this up every time a new piece of Cass and Jason art comes out (It helps that art of the two is usually really, really good) So much in common, so much that contrasts, the biggest leather jacket enthusiasts of the family, it could be amazing. Brought this up before, but if you go on AO3, there are some legitimately great stories about the two, both dramatic and comedic ones, which handily beat anything DC's done with the Bat book in many years.


It does help that the art of the two is usually pretty good for sure. If you have any recommendations as far as great stories about the two from AO3 I'd love some. I'm always looking for great fanfic to read and at the moment I'm stuck waiting for some of them to update so I am in need of some new ones to pass the time. You can pm them if you like so we don't derail the thread here. (Actually, while I'm at it, if anyone else has some I'd love to hear about them.)

----------


## Aioros22

Of course, I had to find artwork about it  :Stick Out Tongue: 

http://batemeuma.tumblr.com/

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_odq5yjB06I1vrdl4lo1_1280.jpg
Jason's many looks.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Isabel not being considered worthy of any use to traumatize Jason lends credit to what I am saying. He doesn`t try to traumatize and get into Bruce`s head with random killings, he goes for the simbolic meaning. Isabel didn`t fit in the narrative he wanted to sell and that narative line is a personal one. Uneven or recent trend as it may, the vibe I get is that some writers (not all granted, I know) see dramatic potential in that same narrative hook, especially in late years. Not for Jason to be in any way, shape or form his factual son but for the Joker to eye Jason in a more especific lense other than stage propping for Batman`s grief which is obviously what I am not interested in. 
> 
> New52 gave us an (in)famous full issue insight to Joker`s thoughts. It matters little what of it is true or not because the main hook and sink is the simbology view it gives us, not how much of an unreliable narrator he tends to be. Like in the end of DOTF shows, when Jaosn asks Bruce about it "None of us made you. You made yourself". That`s the sort of simbology I am aiming at. That devilish bond whose string Jason has been trying to busry since he returned. 
> 
> Loedbell also used Joker`s Daugther to touch upon the same note, since she considers Jay directly "family" and again while not beeing true at least in simbolic terms. This line about the three of them (B, J and J) being family is first touched upon in Under The Red Hood: 
> 
> "We`re one big happy family"
> 
> - "Yes, I like to think so.."
> ...


I disagree. Joker has never shown any real interest on Jason beyond as a way to hurt Batman. 

I don't know what are you getting at about Joker trying to create a narrative with Jason. And in fact, him sparing Isabel goes against your argument given since TKJ was published writers have played with the idea of Joker enjoying twisting people with bad situations happening to them, killing Isabel would've been perfect to push Jason over the edge and yet, Joker didn't. Pretty odd when on the same story he Jokerized Alfred just to prove his point to Bruce. 

The N52 story fails to prove any real interest from the Joker towards Jason. He picked him up on a whim just because Jason happened to be there, he never bothered to learn his name and everything was done out of his feeling to screw up with Batman. Even at the end his irritation with Jason comes from the fact he went off script, ruining his Joke to Batman.

The Joker's Daughter is not a good argument to support your idea since the Joker as character is entirely absent, and Duela was always been consistently written as acting on her own. Not under Joker's orders. Lobdell acknowledged and explored the idea about Jason ties with the Joker using Duela but that is different to say he believes the Joker sees Jason as a son or similar. 

The dialogue on UTRH is just Jason and Joker snarking to each other, reading more on  it is akin to take Jason's snark to Roman and his men as Jason flirting with them.

Arkham Knight Genesis Is not only told through Jason's point of view (which as we've established has made personal his relationship with Joker) but it also contradicts the info about Jason provided _within the game itself_

The Last Crusade is again all about hitting Bruce where it hurts the most. He realizes what Jason means to Bruce and that is why he focuses on him.

Anyways, I found this neat piece of art of all the boys

Source

----------


## Rise

> I disagree. Joker has never shown any real interest on Jason beyond as a way to hurt Batman.


He actually did. There's a story with the joker where he talked about the robins and he said that Jason is his favourite out of the bunch because of his attitude. 

In AK. the Joker's interest in Jason was pretty personal. Jason messing up his plan in the first issue made the joker take unwanted interest in him.

----------


## magpieM

> Loedbell isn`t that alone in this. Tomasi`s Genesis also gives us glimpes of this, even if not in such a direct approach for the reader. Almost as he actually warms up for him, for his potential, for him to be something Harley Queen, who is basically dumped for Jason - could never be. That promise as we all know takes light in Arkham Knight proper. In Arkham Knight Jason is not merely the last coup the grace against Batman. He`s not merely a prop, a thing, a weapon. Jason was effectively shaped to be Joker`s legacy. As he is dying he choses Jason to become something that will carry on his madness on the city, unleashed, untouched. This is the main reason Joker let him live, so his legacy and potential could be fullfilled. This is also why he brands him "You`re mine and my own" whereas Harley was easily diched up and discarted as worthy or useful to continue his work post morten.


I remember Joker left Jason in Arkham and hired Deathstroke to kill him off. Their alliance was unexpected to Joker (later it turned out to be a pleasant surprise). 

Joker's plan in AK was implanted by the end of AC. He tempered the blood transfusion system with his blood to spread his Joker 'gene' as a kind of "virus" to the entire city. He wanted more people to become Jokers, including Batman who was infected at the end of AC, even though Joker himself died and was physically cremated afterwards. In the end, all what AK/AA and Scarecrow did were just stepping stones to trigger the Joker in Batman's head.

----------


## G-Potion

More robins  
https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

Is this nsfw or nah? 

vorimar然易燃

----------


## G-Potion

http://charlottexiaver.lofter.com

Can't...take...it...off

----------


## G-Potion

http://partyking233.lofter.com

----------


## Tony Stark

> More robins  
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com


That's really cool. I'd love to see a book with them. At least a mini.

----------


## yohyoi

> I remember Joker left Jason in Arkham and hired Deathstroke to kill him off. Their alliance was unexpected to Joker (later it turned out to be a pleasant surprise). 
> 
> Joker's plan in AK was implanted by the end of AC. He tempered the blood transfusion system with his blood to spread his Joker 'gene' as a kind of "virus" to the entire city. He wanted more people to become Jokers, including Batman who was infected at the end of AC, even though Joker himself died and was physically cremated afterwards. In the end, all what AK/AA and Scarecrow did were just stepping stones to trigger the Joker in Batman's head.


That's how I remembered it. Joker does not care about anyone or anything but Batman. It's the reason why he is the Joker. Turning Batman into the Joker is the Killing Joke.

----------


## Rise

I think some of you need to re-read genesis.

----------


## RedBird

Yeah, and that part was before Jason had any association with Batman.


Speaking of Joker!
[x] I know this is dark but the silly reference still made me laugh.
Also heres a link to the video its referencing if you don't know. 'would you like to??'



[x] Also heres the cathartic revenge and ass whoopin

----------


## RedBird

I want a mini figure of Reed Hood, its pretty damn cute as a chibi.
[x]



[x]

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think some of you need to re-read genesis.


As I said, the comic contradicts the game. From the files you can found through the game



> *While Joker adored and defined himself through his battles with Batman, the villain had nothing but contempt for the hero's allies, and believed that they spoiled his game of cat and mouse with Batman.*
> 
> Joker had abducted, tortured, murdered, and dismembered an entire Kindergarten class, knowing of Jason's empathy for children, stitched their body parts together in horrendous and mocking formations, and left a trail of blood from the crime scene to an abandoned, underground wing at Arkham Asylum. As Jason watched a mother cry and attempt to put her son back together, he noticed the blood trail and followed it to the forgotten Sanatorium at Arkham Asylum, and turned off all his communications and equipment in order to ensure that Batman did not track him and attempt to prevent Joker's death.
> 
> When Jason entered the wing, intent to kill the Joker once and for all, this played directly into the villain's hand, who then knocked out Jason with a crowbar, which knocked out several teeth and broke his ankle in the process, and abducted and entrapped the teenager within the wing in order to torture him over the course of a year. The forgotten halls of the asylum served as the perfect grounds to torture and humiliate Jason as, even when locked up, Joker had access to the wing thanks to several guards on his payroll, and Batman never suspected that Jason was just below the surface of the fully functional institution.

----------


## Rise

So? We are talking about comics and I proved your statement wrong that Joker never showed any interest in Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So? We are talking about comics and I proved your statement wrong that Joker never showed any interest in Jason.


No, we never said just comics and when it comes to tie in material, the original source is always the one that matters. As the slew of retcons from I2 show. Also




> He actually did. There's a story with the joker where he talked about the robins and he said that Jason is his favourite out of the bunch because of his attitude.


This example is pretty detached from Joker's side to be taken as example of Aiorios interpretation. I mean, having a favorite teacher doesn't mean one has personal investment on them.

----------


## G-Potion

> I want a mini figure of Reed Hood, its pretty damn cute as a chibi.


Might surpass Red Hood in term of chibi cuteness. :P
His pipe and pouch look adorable here.

----------


## Rise

> No, we never said just comics and when it comes to tie in material, the original source is always the one that matters. As the slew of retcons from I2 show. Also
> 
> 
> 
> This example is pretty detached from Joker's side to be taken as example of Aiorios interpretation. I mean, having a favorite teacher doesn't mean one has personal investment on them.


What kind of weird comparison is that? Are you seriously comparing a crazy serial killer's interest to a student having a favourite teacher?

You stated that the joker NEVER showed any interest in Jason and I give examples that proved that it isn't true at all. He actually did and there's a potential under a good writer that can explore this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What kind of weird comparison is that? Are you seriously comparing a crazy serial killer's interest to a student having a favourite teacher?
> 
> You stated that the joker NEVER showed any interest in Jason and I give examples that proved that it isn't true at all. He actually did and there's a potential under a good writer that can explore this.


That is exactly what the Robins mean for the Joker. He doesn't really care for anything or anyone but Batman. And no, saying he liked the guy is not something you can consider interest.

----------


## Rise

If the robins all the same to him, then why Jason was the only one he target? Why didn't he target Dick or Tim in Akrhamverse? 

Coming from a crazy killer like the joker? It actually is.

----------


## Rise

Also, Jason was the only one the joker actually bothered to remember his name.

----------


## Aahz

> If the robins all the same to him, then why Jason was the only one he target? Why didn't he target Dick or Tim in Akrhamverse?


Thats hard to say based on the few appearances of Dick and Tim in the Arkham Verse Comics.

----------


## Rise

> Thats hard to say based on the few appearances of Dick and Tim in the Arkham Verse Comics.


Aahz, your posts always makes me roll my eyes.

It's not hard to say because it was never stated anywhere that he did. It's a fictional world, what we see is what we take and the joker already made it personal to Jason when he stated that he will never forget him and later made a plan to kidnap him.

----------


## Aahz

> It's not hard to say because it was never stated anywhere that he did. It's a fictional world, what we see is what we take and the joker already made it personal to Jason when he stated that he will never forget him and later made a plan to kidnap him.


But the thing is that there is a lot in this verse we didn't saw.

There were hardly any stories about Dick and Tim, and iirc nothing about Dicks time as Robin. And what we know is that Killing Joke happened and that he targeted Barbara.

----------


## Barbatos666

> If the robins all the same to him, then why Jason was the only one he target? Why didn't he target Dick or Tim in Akrhamverse? 
> 
> Coming from a crazy killer like the joker? It actually is.


Its simple, Joker killed Jason in the comics. That has become part of Jason's iconography so obviously every other interpretation will have Joker killing Jason not Dick, Tim or Damian.

----------


## Rise

You don't say? Joker killing Jason in the 80s made the two connected to each other forever. Although, this doesn't stop the writers from making the joker interested in anyone (they already had him involved with Duke).

In that fictional world, it showed that the joker has no interest in targeting any of the robins because his writers made it that way which what I base my argument on since the joker isn't a real person who make his own decisions by himself.

----------


## Aioros22

> I don't know what are you getting at about Joker trying to create a narrative with Jason. And in fact, him sparing Isabel goes against your argument given since TKJ was published writers have played with the idea of Joker enjoying twisting people with bad situations happening to them, killing Isabel would've been perfect to push Jason over the edge and yet, Joker didn't. Pretty odd when on the same story he Jokerized Alfred just to prove his point to Bruce


The narrative Joker tried to sell Jason wasn`t about Batman or solely about Batman but a personal connection between the two of them. It was about Jason having been created by _him_. That he owned him his life and identity. That`s basically a methaphysical daddie. 

Speaking of daddies, that`s what Alfred is to Bruce and the family. There`s no comparison in that regard with Isabel. Isabel is someone with no stake with the story he wanted to tell Jason about and of which Jason talks to Bruce at the end of DOTF. I don`t recall if it`s implied that Joker has been following Jason before he picks him up (I do recall him monitoring everybody) but if he did he would see Isabel isn`t that close to Jason at this point yet and DOTF is all about "family" or familiar connections. 




> The N52 story fails to prove any real interest from the Joker towards Jason. He picked him up on a whim just because Jason happened to be there, he never bothered to learn his name and everything was done out of his feeling to screw up with Batman. Even at the end his irritation with Jason comes from the fact he went off script, ruining his Joke to Batman


The interest is in having a writer play with a different tune than the former status. Not wanting to know his civil name looks to me pretty similar to how he approaches Batman. Joker has been stated to be pretty dead numb at Bruce Wayne and hasn`t aknowledge the identity he considers a farse at all. Follow that theme with Jason as well both in that RATHO and Genesis. To Joker, Jason owns his life because thanks to him he revealed his true self in either incarnation (as Robin and as Red Hood/Knight).

Think I`m too far off? The moment the hencheman tries to utter his name Joker shuts him off and claims he`s "creating". Creating what? His identity. Yes, the end game for Batman is there but that`s still expected. 




> The Joker's Daughter is not a good argument to support your idea since the Joker as character is entirely absent, and Duela was always been consistently written as acting on her own. Not under Joker's orders. Lobdell acknowledged and explored the idea about Jason ties with the Joker using Duela but that is different to say he believes the Joker sees Jason as a son or similar


Aknowledging his simbolic ties with the Joker in a familiar frame is all the reason I`m using her example. She`s her own agent, not on Joker`s direct orders, however, the point of the character is how she acts and believes that she does. It`s the perception I found interesting to point out. 




> The dialogue on UTRH is just Jason and Joker snarking to each other, reading more on  it is akin to take Jason's snark to Roman and his men as Jason flirting with them


With Roman using a fetiche-ee mask, we all went down that road  :Wink:  not to mention Miller`s Joker since TDKR

But yes, I`m aware they`re snarking at each other but that is not to say that Joker isn`t amused by it. He again repeats the tragic familiar frame when the two are reunited with Batman at the end. Not he and Batman. He,  Jason and Batman. 




> Arkham Knight Genesis Is not only told through Jason's point of view (which as we've established has made personal his relationship with Joker) but it also contradicts the info about Jason provided _within the game itself_


I`ve played the game when it came out but seems it`s fresher for you. Could you name the things that directly contradict what we are discussing? 




> The Last Crusade is again all about hitting Bruce where it hurts the most. He realizes what Jason means to Bruce and that is why he focuses on him


I think the focus is deeper than that. Remember the story about the "boy with the broken neck"?

Anyhow, I`m not claiming there`s absolutely no focus on Bruce in any of these stories, that`s never going away but to me there`s been a shift in the way things have gone a bit personal between him and Joker and not just from Jason`s side and I do see potential for single story play ala Genesis because among other things it instantly elevates Jason to main character out of the gate with how popular Joker is. 

If I have to make a prediction I`ll bet that in coming years more writers will explore this. Cool art too!

----------


## Aioros22

> But the thing is that there is a lot in this verse we didn't saw.
> 
> There were hardly any stories about Dick and Tim, and iirc nothing about Dicks time as Robin. And what we know is that Killing Joke happened and that he targeted Barbara.


It`s not that he won`t target others (Barbara and Duke say hello, angry) is that to Joker, Jason and his identities are more a personal affair or have been in some metatextual way in recent years. 

Still lacking that to others. Barbara is a shitty case in the sense Gordon was more his goal and almost nothing when it comes adressing _her_. As a sort of test of what i`m saying, if you place Barbara and Jason together and how interactions with Joker are written, the connection Barbara shares is more the one sided.

----------


## Aioros22

> As I said, the comic contradicts the game. From the files you can found through the game:
> 
> *While Joker adored and defined himself through his battles with Batman, the villain had nothing but contempt for the hero's allies and believed that they spoiled his game of cat and mouse with Batman*.
> 
> Joker had abducted, tortured, murdered, and dismembered an entire Kindergarten class, knowing of Jason's empathy for children, stitched their body parts together in horrendous and mocking formations, and left a trail of blood from the crime scene to an abandoned, underground wing at Arkham Asylum. As Jason watched a mother cry and attempt to put her son back together, he noticed the blood trail and followed it to the forgotten Sanatorium at Arkham Asylum, and turned off all his communications and equipment in order to ensure that Batman did not track him and attempt to prevent Joker's death.
> 
> When Jason entered the wing, intent to kill the Joker once and for all, this played directly into the villain's hand, who then knocked out Jason with a crowbar, which knocked out several teeth and broke his ankle in the process, and abducted and entrapped the teenager within the wing in order to torture him over the course of a year. The forgotten halls of the asylum served as the perfect grounds to torture and humiliate Jason as, even when locked up, Joker had access to the wing thanks to several guards on his payroll, and Batman never suspected that Jason was just below the surface of the fully functional institution.


Right, that`s the status quo to begin with but have you done all torture sequences yet? 

He may view Batman`s allies as nuissances but you may actually see some familiar shades of the discussion there. Not to mention the comic series was sold as the official Prequel to the events of the game.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If the robins all the same to him, then why Jason was the only one he target? Why didn't he target Dick or Tim in Akrhamverse? 
> 
> Coming from a crazy killer like the joker? It actually is.





> Aahz, your posts always makes me roll my eyes.
> 
> It's not hard to say because it was never stated anywhere that he did. It's a fictional world, what we see is what we take and the joker already made it personal to Jason when he stated that he will never forget him and later made a plan to kidnap him.





> You don't say? Joker killing Jason in the 80s made the two connected to each other forever. Although, this doesn't stop the writers from making the joker interested in anyone (they already had him involved with Duke).
> 
> In that fictional world, it showed that the joker has no interest in targeting any of the robins because his writers made it that way which what I base my argument on since the joker isn't a real person who make his own decisions by himself.


As it was mentioned, because Rocksteady was all about including the iconic moments from the comics regardless if they worked within the context of the plot they were building and since Dick and Tim lack such iconic moment with the Joker, they were skipped. 

And the Joker does threatens Dick constantly during the MP of Arkham Origins (and Tim and Dick during the challenge rooms of City and Knight) that if we take your perspective of "What we see is what it is" Then yes, Joker was absolutely out to get anyone close to Batman. Not just Jason.




> The narrative Joker tried to sell Jason wasn`t about Batman or solely about Batman but a personal connection between the two of them. It was about Jason having been created by _him_. That he owned him his life and identity. That`s basically a methaphysical daddie.


Except that his taunting wasn't at all different with the other Robins when he went after them. In fact, Joker was particularly vicious when he attacked Dick, literally destroying everything Dick had built until then.




> Speaking of daddies, that`s what Alfred is to Bruce and the family. There`s no comparison in that regard with Isabel. Isabel is someone with no stake with the story he wanted to tell Jason about and of which Jason talks to Bruce at the end of DOTF. I don`t recall if it`s implied that Joker has been following Jason before he picks him up (I do recall him monitoring everybody) but if he did he would see Isabel isn`t that close to Jason at this point yet and DOTF is all about "family" or familiar connections.


He was tracking them, and he targeted Isabel precisely due her connection to Jason. And again, he was particularly vicious when going after Dick and Barbara whereas with Jason and Tim they were almost an afterthought.




> The interest is in having a writer play with a different tune than the former status. Not wanting to know his civil name looks to me pretty similar to how he approaches Batman. Joker has been stated to be pretty dead numb at Bruce Wayne and hasn`t aknowledge the identity he considers a farse at all. Follow that theme with Jason as well both in that RATHO and Genesis. To Joker, Jason owns his life because thanks to him he revealed his true self in either incarnation (as Robin and as Red Hood/Knight).
> 
> Think I`m too far off? The moment the hencheman tries to utter his name Joker shuts him off and claims he`s "creating". Creating what? His identity. Yes, the end game for Batman is there but that`s still expected.


He's creating his joke. He never shows any interest or acknowledgment for whatever Jason has done on any incarnation. Even during DOTF Joker stops messing with Jason as his plan approaches to the end and by the time of Endgame he stops with the theatrics and goes straight to Bruce.




> Aknowledging his simbolic ties with the Joker in a familiar frame is all the reason I`m using her example. She`s her own agent, not on Joker`s direct orders, however, the point of the character is how she acts and believes that she does. It`s the perception I found interesting to point out.


Fair point but that is still no support for your theory.




> With Roman using a fetiche-ee mask, we all went down that road  not to mention Miller`s Joker since TDKR
> 
> 
> But yes, I`m aware they`re snarking at each other but that is not to say that Joker isn`t amused by it. He again repeats the tragic familiar frame when the two are reunited with Batman at the end. Not he and Batman. He,  Jason and Batman.


Because is the best way to get under Batman's skin. Is even made even clearer on the animated film where Joker's antics at the end have Batman as the primary focus of Joker's attention.




> I`ve played the game when it came out but seems it`s fresher for you. Could you name the things that directly contradict what we are discussing?


I posted up above




> I think the focus is deeper than that. Remember the story about the "boy with the broken neck"?
> 
> Anyhow, I`m not claiming there`s absolutely no focus on Bruce in any of these stories, that`s never going away but to me there`s been a shift in the way things have gone a bit personal between him and Joker and not just from Jason`s side and I do see potential for single story play ala Genesis because among other things it instantly elevates Jason to main character out of the gate with how popular Joker is. 
> 
> If I have to make a prediction I`ll bet that in coming years more writers will explore this. Cool art too!


Because Joker is the first one to realize that Batman was intending to pass over the mantle to Jason. Take Jason out of the equation and Batman will crumble, something that as we know, was exactly what happened.




> It`s not that he won`t target others (Barbara and Duke say hello, angry) is that to Joker, Jason and his identities are more a personal affair or have been in some metatextual way in recent years. 
> 
> Still lacking that to others. Barbara is a shitty case in the sense Gordon was more his goal and almost nothing when it comes adressing _her_. As a sort of test of what i`m saying, if you place Barbara and Jason together and how interactions with Joker are written, the connection Barbara shares is more the one sided.


Batgirl's tie-in with DOTF actually show Joker having more interest on Barbara than he has ever shown to Jason.




> Right, that`s the status quo to begin with but have you done all torture sequences yet? 
> 
> He may view Batman`s allies as nuissances but you may actually see some familiar shades of the discussion there. Not to mention the comic series was sold as the official Prequel to the events of the game.


The torture sequences and Joker's commentary though the game further shown the focus was hurting Batman, and thus turning one of his allies against him was just perfect.

And yet the writing team behind the game still choose to deviate from them in favor of their own take.

----------


## Aioros22

The torture scenes show Joker employing familiar themes towards Jason and Batman. Batman was losing a son, Joker was gaining one. 

- "Can I keep him daddie. Can I keep him forever?"

- "Need my own sidekick". 

Weird that you consider the DOTF Batgirl Tie-in as the example of the attached connection being drawn further than he`s ever done with Jason, despite that unlike with the former Robin, his reunion plan for Barbara is merely a rehash of an act already played and the end goal is to marry and quikly divorce (read: kill) her? There`s also her crazy brother who steals the show at the church and that wasn`t part of Joker`s plan at all. Seems like a lack of commitment to Barbara`s overall life. 

I`m aware there`s the whole marriage backdrop but Barbara isn`t his unique choice in the matter there either. 

In comparison, with Jason the "royal family being fooders" paints Jason the more familiar light. 

- "Wakey wakey, son". 

- "This is personal and I`ve got an even better surprise for you!" (to which Jason retorts to ask him dare say his actual name), 

- " Even if I hand`nt beat you to death before, you`d still be my favorite fave!". 

- "You were always the angry one. The brawler. So positevely zeisty!"

To which Joker goes the trouble in joining up fragments of Jason`s whole past just to taunt him but not kill him That`s the sort of personal anedocte that is missing with the others. I may even have undersold Isabel since Joker gives her an overdose and leaves her for Jason to find find her as he did his mother and she is then taken to the hospital. Such action promps Jason to recklessly take the police out and steal one of their cars (or a wheel if you will), the one Joker was in.

There is full commitment in Joker`s actions here and real amusement in playing with him. Jay may be a rat that keeps messing the game with Bats but he`s the bigger rat of the bunch.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The torture scenes show Joker employing familiar themes towards Jason and Batman. Batman was losing a son, Joker was gaining one. 
> 
> - "Can I keep him daddie. Can I keep him forever?"
> 
> - "Need my own sidekick".


Exactly, precisely because he knew that was what it would hurt Batman the most. Honestly I don't see why you keep using the Arkham series as example when their take of the Joker is second only to Miller's regarding his obsession with Bruce.




> Weird that you consider the DOTF Batgirl Tie-in as the example of the attached connection being drawn further than he`s ever done with Jason, despite that unlike with the former Robin, his reunion plan for Barbara is merely a rehash of an act already played and the end goal is to marry and quikly divorce (read: kill) her? There`s also her crazy brother who steals the show at the church and that wasn`t part of Joker`s plan at all. Seems like a lack of commitment to Barbara`s overall life. 
> 
> I`m aware there`s the whole marriage backdrop but Barbara isn`t his unique choice in the matter there either.


In comparison, with Jason the "royal family being fooders" paints Jason the more familiar light. 

- "Wakey wakey, son". 

- "This is personal and I`ve got an even better surprise for you!" (to which Jason retorts to ask him dare say his actual name), 

- " Even if I hand`nt beat you to death before, you`d still be my favorite fave!". 

- "You were always the angry one. The brawler. So positevely zeisty!"[/quote]

Is not about the backdrop but the fact that unlike Jason, Joker was upfront with Barbara and freely admitted everything whereas with Jason he avoided direct confrontation and then dropped any pretense about knowing more of Jason when he faced Jason and Tim later on. 





> To which Joker goes the trouble in joining up fragments of Jason`s whole past just to taunt him but not kill him That`s the sort of personal anedocte that is missing with the others. I may even have undersold Isabel since Joker gives her an overdose and leaves her for Jason to find find her as he did his mother and she is then taken to the hospital. Such action promps Jason to recklessly take the police out and steal one of their cars (or a wheel if you will), the one Joker was in.
> 
> There is full commitment in Joker`s actions here and real amusement in playing with him. Jay may be a rat that keeps messing the game with Bats but he`s the bigger rat of the bunch.


Jason didn't act recklessly. He fought the GCPD because they wanted to take him in for questioning and he only took the car because Jason's first thought wasn't going after Joker but to warn the others, something that any of the boys would've done and thus. something that made very easy fro Joker to laid out his trap.

----------


## Aioros22

How you mean? Barbara isnt led to her mother by the Joker but by her brother at the payphone, setting his own agenda up for the switcheroo. 

Joker only drops the pretense about the marriage at the end before James Jr walks in.

----------


## G-Potion

oo0-0oo14.lofter.com

----------


## Aioros22

Haha, had to be done. 

Batman: White Knight #3 is..certainly interesting, if you can call it that.

----------


## G-Potion

> Haha, had to be done. 
> 
> Batman: White Knight #3 is..certainly interesting, if you can call it that.


Does it concern Jason?

----------


## TheCape

In that universe, Jason was the first Robin not Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason and his iconography, yeah.

----------


## G-Potion

> In that universe, Jason was the first Robin not Dick.


That's... uh.... interesting.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason and his iconography, yeah.


Do you think it's still possible that Red Hood will make an appearance?

----------


## Aioros22

Murphy seems to be keen of using and shaping Jason`s iconography on others, that`s the interesting part. 

. He replaces Dick as the original Robin. 

. He still "dies" against the Joker and is replaced. 

. Despite this, no body was found so Bruce buried an empty casket. 

. Dick claims Bruce saw Jason as his son.  

. Dick claims the older he got the more like Jason he looked to Bruce. 

. Dick`s personality and his struggle with the father figure seem modelled after classic Jay. 

. His design is equally modelled after RATHO Jason, with the chest symbol and the leather jacket plus domino mask. Only the colors differ.

----------


## G-Potion

> Murphy seems to be keen of using and shaping Jason`s iconography on others, that`s the interesting part. 
> 
> . He replaces Dick as the original Robin. 
> 
> . He still "dies" against the Joker and is replaced. 
> 
> . Despite this, no body was found so Bruce buried an empty casket. 
> 
> . Dick claims Bruce saw Jason as his son.  
> ...


Huh... curious to see what's the point of all this.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, this issue confirms that an empty casket was buried since the body was never retrieved and Napier still don`t know what happened to him, so maybe. I think that`s part of the later plot, when Napier acesses Joker`s memories. Of all the possibilities the obvious one is that he will return somehow. 

This issue also had Napier make public papers about taxes being used over the years to clean up Batman`s enterprise against Crime so his image right now is worse than it was to the citizens of Gotham. Seems like a UTRH approach: Napier/Joker in one corner and Batman on his with criminals loose and someone else being the other option for the city? Bets are on, gentlemen. 

The other interesting bit is Barbara calling Bruce a danger to the city straight on to Grayson.

----------


## Alycat

> Huh... curious to see what's the point of all this.


I am too because I feel like the switch misses the point of the characters entirely. At this point, it might as well be different charcters.

----------


## Aioros22

Barbara seems standard enough. Jason is split in two, since this "Nigthwing" is totally a Jason 2.0, down to character bits so far and design. Grayson fans are going to fume over it, most likely, while we sort of look around and ask what is going on and wait for the end goal. 

Add up the plot about Napier being afraid to use Joker`s memories so he doesn`t remember what he did, this White Knight seems sorta Hood centric. 

Oh yeah and Duke is older than everyone else and hates Batman.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

White Knight is intriguing, and the changes regarding Jason are too big to be able to properly emit a judgement at this point. We'll see how it develops down the road. How many issues is gonna run for?

----------


## Aioros22

I think it`s supposed to run seven issues.

----------


## Aahz

> I think it`s supposed to run seven issues.


It will have 8 issues.

----------


## G-Potion

The girl is an OC but this Jason just looks sooo good.

[X]

----------


## Alycat

Do drawings with super tight shirts that show the abs bother anyone else? Or is that just me? Like I always drift into thinking how uncomfortable that must be and how they get them on.

----------


## Assam

More art by Pulchrally, this time with outfits based around this fanfic http://archiveofourown.org/series/620224 which, as one of its plots, uses the fan theory that Cass and Jay are bio sibs. It's pretty good from what I've read of it. 

based on fanfic.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> More art by Pulchrally, this time with outfits based around this fanfic http://archiveofourown.org/series/620224 which, as one of its plots, uses the fan theory that Cass and Jay are bio sibs. It's pretty good from what I've read of it.


I _love_ this series.

----------


## kiwiliko

> More art by Pulchrally, this time with outfits based around this fanfic http://archiveofourown.org/series/620224 which, as one of its plots, uses the fan theory that Cass and Jay are bio sibs. It's pretty good from what I've read of it. 
> 
> based on fanfic.jpg


The second I saw the helmet and the ears, I called it.
Im so happy it's getting some nice fanart!

----------


## TheCape

Here is a nice fanfic that happens around the annual, if has some Jason/Artemis content, but is mostly about Dick and Jason trying to bond.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/12...pters/27822546

----------


## G-Potion

Still cute anyway [X]

----------


## SpentShrimp

Grant Morrison had an AMA on Reddit today. He didn't answer my Jason Todd question.  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

I think he`s on to you  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I read on another Thread there were more asking Jason questions but I haven`t seen if he answered any of them. 


More Ninja fanart,

http://picmurasaki.tumblr.com/


http://smolphanh.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

There`s a funny post on the second blog about the reactions over the homework they did behind the design and obviously enough, it turned people`s heads  :Wink: 

As Geese Howard would say Predictabo!

----------


## Aioros22

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Robins trying their outfits for the first time

http://askhungryeren.tumblr.com/

----------


## TheCape

Jason with a Superman doll, from Bizarro not doubt, nice, he wants to remenber his boy when his away for work  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

[x] more bumping into doorways

----------


## RedBird

Also I am way late on the White Knight issue #3 thing but uh, interesting twist with the whole chronology thing. I will give Murphy a point for creativity or at least boldness I don't think I have ever read that in a actual comic before. 

So Dick is in a difficult spot because he is not the first robin so he couldnt be Bruces first 'anchor point' and have the luxury of having a deep and meaningful relationship with him as two traumatized souls trying to overcome their darkness, now that Bruce has already suffered from Jasons death and has subsequently 'gone off the rails' already. A bit too little too late.

And neither can he be 'Tim' to Bruce, or 'the robin after Jasons death' since _unlike Tim_, Dick did come with his own baggage, is therefore unable to completely give all his support to Bruce, is suffering from a loss of his parents and so more readily resents Bruces inability to accept him as a son as Bruce would have without the loss of a Robin.

Excuse this wild tangent but someone correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't there a comic that highlighted Dick somewhat being jealous of Jason (when he was alive) due to the fact that Bruce had adopted Jay first but had always kept Dick as a 'ward' and (after having been replaced already as 'robin') that had left Dick feeling that he was inadequate? I think it was in the same issue where Bruce adopts him as an adult but I'm honestly not 100% anymore. Point being that if that was canon in post crisis then honestly Dick being jealous of Jason and of his meaning to Bruce isn't that much of a stretch from the aforementioned prior canon. If I am reacalling that wrong, well, I guess it matters not, since you have an adult still mourning the loss of a first son and is unable to give support to a newly orphaned child, resentment over that still seems plausible to me.

I say all this because I generally DONT like the idea of switching all the boys around and acting like each would have followed the same path regardless which is what I'm hoping Murphy *isnt* aiming for with this chronological turn around. Plus I find it hard to see this as a simple switch around between Jason and Dick anyway, since the circumstances befalling them are too different, Dicks place here is Tims but of course he is unable to fulfill the role as Tim had by living up to a dead Robin. To imply that whoever came second would have been the 'leather jacket wearing' rebel child, feels like it removes a lot of agency with the boys, as apposed to suggesting that the unique circumstance of Bruce suffering from a loss more early in his career would have put him off being a 'family man' for good and would have built resentment in Dick regardless since as I mentioned, Dick wasnt above jealously or loss of self worth, as I dont think any _orphaned_ child can be blamed for those kinda of emotions. 

If the whole point was to drive a wedge between Bruce and Dick, so that Dicks turn around from an ally to an enemy of Bruce isn't surprising or otherwise ooc considering their deep history in canon otherwise, then I think its an interesting and wise decision for this story to make that switch. Plus its especially highlighted here and in this moment with the death of Alfred, suggesting the last bond between them is gone and so is the last strand of loyalty which is why Dick is pouring his heart out now to Babs. And as mentioned before it can justify why Bruce is more 'off the rails' so early in his career, too far gone in is trauma and loss to recover.

As long as its not some kind of weird way of insinuating that the robins are interchangeable which doesn't seem to be implied in the narrative otherwise outside of echoes of resentment which I don't think is unique to Jason, then honestly I like the idea, I think it still feels in character for Dick to feel this way if this was the environment he was introduced into. Although I am morbidly curious as to what is in store for Jason with the now second mention of the empty grave. Alive or not theres clearly something down the road for him. So far I have enjoyed Murphys characterizations, it does feel like he understands (at least to a degree) what these characters are about and how they operate. I await future issues for this series.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] more bumping into doorways


This is reaching a new height. :P

----------


## RedBird

Not sure if this counts as confirmation but...



Its certainly a tease  :Big Grin:

----------


## TheCape

> Also I am way late on the White Knight issue #3 thing but uh, interesting twist with the whole chronology thing. I will give Murphy a point for creativity or at least boldness I don't think I have ever read that in a actual comic before. 
> 
> So Dick is in a difficult spot because he is not the first robin so he couldnt be Bruces first 'anchor point' and have the luxury of having a deep and meaningful relationship with him as two traumatized souls trying to overcome their darkness, now that Bruce has already suffered from Jasons death and has subsequently 'gone off the rails' already. A bit too little too late.
> 
> And neither can he be 'Tim' to Bruce, or 'the robin after Jasons death' since _unlike Tim_, Dick did come with his own baggage, is therefore unable to completely give all his support to Bruce, is suffering from a loss of his parents and so more readily resents Bruces inability to accept him as a son as Bruce would have without the loss of a Robin.
> 
> Excuse this wild tangent but someone correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't there a comic that highlighted Dick somewhat being jealous of Jason (when he was alive) due to the fact that Bruce had adopted Jay first but had always kept Dick as a 'ward' and (after having been replaced already as 'robin') that had left Dick feeling that he was inadequate? I think it was in the same issue where Bruce adopts him as an adult but I'm honestly not 100% anymore. Point being that if that was canon in post crisis then honestly Dick being jealous of Jason and of his meaning to Bruce isn't that much of a stretch from the aforementioned prior canon. If I am reacalling that wrong, well, I guess it matters not, since you have an adult still mourning the loss of a first son and is unable to give support to a newly orphaned child, resentment over that still seems plausible to me.
> 
> I say all this because I generally DONT like the idea of switching all the boys around and acting like each would have followed the same path regardless which is what I'm hoping Murphy *isnt* aiming for with this chronological turn around. Plus I find it hard to see this as a simple switch around between Jason and Dick anyway, since the circumstances befalling them are too different, Dicks place here is Tims but of course he is unable to fulfill the role as Tim had by living up to a dead Robin. To imply that whoever came second would have been the 'leather jacket wearing' rebel child, feels like it removes a lot of agency with the boys, as apposed to suggesting that the unique circumstance of Bruce suffering from a loss more early in his career would have put him off being a 'family man' for good and would have built resentment in Dick regardless since as I mentioned, Dick wasnt above jealously or loss of self worth, as I dont think any _orphaned_ child can be blamed for those kinda of emotions. 
> ...


Interesting analysis, now i'm kind of curious for how White Knigth would play out. Also, you are rigth there is an issue of Teen Titans in the 80s (Tale of Titans #50, during Donna and Terry wedding if i'm not wrong), when Dick ask Bruce why he never adopted him, but did that with Jason almost as soon as he meet him, Bruce said that because it was a different time and having Jason as a ward wouldn't have been possible and in spite considering Dick family he never go around adopting him and by the time that he wanted too, he felt that he has no rigth to having him as such because of his age.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not sure if this counts as confirmation but...
> 
> 
> 
> Its certainly a tease


Finally! Only after like a million twits screaming for him. :P

----------


## G-Potion

Btw, nice analysis, Red. I agree with all that and really hope Murphy has a game plan here rather than just lazy switching around.

----------


## Aioros22

Heads up to whoveer have been following Bombshells:United, because Talia, a secret cult of monks and the Lazarus Pits have been introduced(?) mentioned last issue.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Heads up to whoveer have been following Bombshells:United, because Talia, a secret cult of monks and the Lazarus Pits have been introduced(?) mentioned last issue.


I haven't been keeping up with it but it sounds like there could be Red Hood incoming. Poor Kate and Renee.

----------


## Assam

I swear to the f**king Presence if *Bombshells* has Cass and Jay interact before the main universe does...  :Mad:

----------


## kiwiliko

> I swear to the f**king Presence if *Bombshells* has Cass and Jay interact before the main universe does...


Well I mean at this point I might even trust Bombshells to do that interaction more justice.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Actually a lot of the smaller series with more out there ideas seem to be doing pretty well in narratives, Bombshells is nice and Gotham Garage has been gaining traction too. I'm not familiar with how their writing processes might work differently but at least to me they don't feel pressured to deliver any large gamechanging elements and keeping the scope smaller feels more organic for the characters.

----------


## RedBird

> Heads up to whoveer have been following Bombshells:United, because Talia, a secret cult of monks and the Lazarus Pits have been introduced(?) mentioned last issue.


Yep. Been keeping up, but even with all those lead ups and clues I didnt wanna get my hopes up just yet, but oh boy considering the whole arc of Spain started with Jasons memory, I'd say it would be foolish at this point not to take advantage of the elements at play here to recreate Jasons revival.

----------


## RedBird

> I swear to the f**king Presence if *Bombshells* has Cass and Jay interact before the main universe does...


It really is incredible how much dc can screw up internally and be so unfullfilling, that two of its oldest characters from its most famed family group can go their entire existence without ever interacting, despite being *literal* siblings. To be fair with bombshells I get the impression that interaction from that book may be more respectful to the characters than anything I can expect from dcs canon line, sad as it is to say.  :Frown:

----------


## Godlike13

Two of its oldest characters? Lol lets relax a bit here. Jason isn't even half as old as DC's oldest characters, and Cass isn't even close to half as old.

----------


## Aahz

I find it anyway odd that the Batman writers seem to be not able to handle stories with even just 5-7 characters in the main cast, while other writers seem easily able to handle much bigger casts.

----------


## RedBird

> Two of its oldest characters? Lol lets relax a bit here. Jason isn't even half as old as DC's oldest characters, and Cass isn't even close to half as old.


Yes I am well aware that Jason isnt even half as old as DCs oldest characters. If you go back and reread what I said, it was that Jason is one of the oldest members of dcs batfamily group not of dc. The only other core members older than him are dick and babs. Jason has kicked about since the 80s. And Cass came about in 1999, thats nearly twenty years, enough that her current featured book TEC is known and regarded as a nostalgia trip. I dont know man, for me, Jason is a longtime member and so is Cass at this point. Maybe you need 30 years or 40 or 50 years before you yourself consider something *old* but for me, Jason is *old* *school* and Cass is as nostalgic as shes gonna get at this point. Its only Duke and Damian and even Kate that are new blood to me.

(I'm gonna reiterate this because I know people are sticklers for this canon or that canon, which makes me think this conversation is a mute point to begin with but, yes I know Damian first came about in the late 80s but that canon seems to both never be counted, accounted for and is disregarded since Morrisons Damian is a whole new character with the same concept behind it, same sort of goes for Kate who is a separate character from 'Kathy Kane' who as far as I know is not associated with the group anymore. If anyone here is the kind of person that goes by batmans _timeline_ rather than canon, then I think technically the longest known member as of new52 is actually Duke, funny how this comics crap works out)

----------


## RedBird

> I find it anyway odd that the Batman writers seem to be not able to handle stories with even just 5-7 characters in the main cast, while other writers seem easily able to handle much bigger casts.


I guess you have to find a writer that gives a damn about 5-7 characters enough to tell a good story about them in the first place. But what kind of bigger casts are we talking? You mean something like injustice which whilst feels in touch with the characters does have to spilt time between them alot. Or did you mean like teen titans or jl groups, which I would argue wouldnt work out, since a lot of those things do have to break characters down into archetype roles in order to fit the classic 'team' dynamic. You know, one is strong, one is smart, one is leader, one is girl, you get the picture. Im not saying its impossible btw to create that kind of group without having everyone broken into base characteristics, but comic book writers arent exactly top tier creative minds most of the time and this isnt a business that creates much groundbreaking forms of storytelling. With a few exceptions here and there of course.

----------


## RedBird

[x]

I'm so confused as to why theres no talk on Tims outfit as well, it looks pretty damn good.
(Not here btw, I just mean in general or in the Tim thread)  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aahz

> I guess you have to find a writer that gives a damn about 5-7 characters enough to tell a good story about them in the first place. But what kind of bigger casts are we talking? You mean something like injustice which whilst feels in touch with the characters does have to spilt time between them alot. Or did you mean like teen titans or jl groups, which I would argue wouldnt work out, since a lot of those things do have to break characters down into archetype roles in order to fit the classic 'team' dynamic. You know, one is strong, one is smart, one is leader, one is girl, you get the picture. Im not saying its impossible btw to create that kind of group without having everyone broken into base characteristics, but comic book writers arent exactly top tier creative minds most of the time and this isnt a business that creates much groundbreaking forms of storytelling. With a few exceptions here and there of course.


I think it is for example fair to compare the Eternals with other weekly event series like "52", "Trinity" and maybe even "Countdown" (even if that ended up beeing a mess), which did imo a far better job in having multiple subplots running for different characters at the same time, and writing them in character.
Injustice is usually concentrating on a few characters at a time, but if you look at the size of the cast I find it really amazing how well the writers are able to write the majority of them in character (and the one who feel of like Superman have to be like that or the whole universe wouldn't really work).

When it comes to "archetype roles" you kind of have them in the Batfamily allready, but for some reason not really for any character. Jason is imo often suffering from not really having a defined role/skill set and just standing arround while the others do their thing.

----------


## RedBird

> I think it is for example fair to compare the Eternals with other weekly event series like "52", "Trinity" and maybe even "Countdown" (even if that ended up beeing a mess), which did imo a far better job in having multiple subplots running for different characters at the same time, and writing them in character.
> Injustice is usually concentrating on a few characters at a time, but if you look at the size of the cast I find it really amazing how well the writers are able to write the majority of them in character (and the one who feel of like Superman have to be like that or the whole universe wouldn't really work).
> 
> When it comes to "archetype roles" you kind of have them in the Batfamily allready, but for some reason not really for any character. Jason is imo often suffering from not really having a defined role/skill set and just standing arround while the others do their thing.



I think it may be a problem with the perception of the batfamily at times as this 'group package' when (outside of batman and the idea of robin) they were never really created to compliment one another in the first place. They are not like the modern ninja turtles who each have an 'assigned role', so forcing them each into such a thing makes them either seem useless since they dont fit in, or wildly exaggerated in only one aspect of their skill set. Long story short its unsatisfying on almost all fronts.

I think it may be easier with ideas like countdown and trinity since you kind of have a clear mixture of characters and skill sets, especially with the inclusion of metas, where as in eternal everyone is human and a bat vigilante. This aint an excuse by the way, I still don't consider it impossible to have a large cast 'of humans' without resorting to formulaic categorizations of said characters. But as said, comic book writers are not _especially_ known for being pioneer storytellers even in the best of times (eg; when editors give them some free reign), writing a balanced and layered large cast is a difficult task, its not that odd that most cant achieve it, most are just not that talented.

----------


## RedBird

Jason and Dick by Marcus To

----------


## G-Potion

Looking good!

----------


## G-Potion

Anyone excited for this? This is the guy who played Red Hood in Nightwing:The Series

----------


## G-Potion

> [x]
> 
> I'm so confused as to why theres no talk on Tims outfit as well, it looks pretty damn good.
> (Not here btw, I just mean in general or in the Tim thread)


I think it looks good in fanarts but only okay in the trailer. Overall there's not a lot to talk about regarding the costumes of the robins except for Jason. The hair on the other hand....

----------


## RedBird

> Looking good!


What kinda super saiyan stuff is this? XD

But yeah, looks cool, I'm still lost on where this story is going, but super curious to find out.

----------


## G-Potion

> What kinda super saiyan stuff is this? XD
> 
> But yeah, looks cool, I'm still lost on where this story is going, but super curious to find out.


The zap is bigger everytime it appears.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> I think it looks good in fanarts but only okay in the trailer. Overall there's not a lot to talk about regarding the costumes of the robins except for Jason. The hair on the other hand....


Its a shame, perhaps it is just too soon, but I really expected more buzz about it. Any small outfit change within comics and the fans, especially artists, are usually all over that.***

Maybe (especially looking at Damian and Jason) its a tad on the 'safe' side, but its still a nice design thats unique to Tim now. His outfit is basically what I would have expected and wanted for a feudal Japan inspired RR motif, so on that aspect I still thought it 'delivered', if you're not into the more _outrageous_ designs then this one is really well balanced, you know? Plus the hair is in a cool style, and definitely not something regular Tim would probably get the opportunity to wear again.



***btw I'm not saying that as a way of feeling entitled to get more 'fanart' of a beloved character, or complaining that theres not enough, thats a douche move and not my intention AT ALL. I'm just surprised by the general lack of excitement even from hardcore Tim fans is all.





> The zap is bigger everytime it appears.


OOOHH I feel so silly, I thought those were some kind of general 'energy blasts' going around the room. I totally forgot about the chest zapper!  :Big Grin: 

Well, now I'm getting Thor vibes instead. :P

----------


## G-Potion

http://akmmmm.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> ***btw I'm not saying that as a way of feeling entitled to get more 'fanart' of a beloved character, or complaining that theres not enough, thats a douche move and not my intention AT ALL. I'm just surprised by the general lack of excitement even from hardcore Tim fans is all.


Don't worry, I don't think you come across that way at all.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason and Dick by Marcus To


I like that with Marcus To, he always manages to make Jason look the younger brother of the two. You almost never see it in comics at all.

----------


## TheCape

> I'm so confused as to why theres no talk on Tims outfit as well, it looks pretty damn good.
> (Not here btw, I just mean in general or in the Tim thread)*


We talked of it for a bit, but it was mostly "wow it looks cool" and then move on  :Stick Out Tongue: . Personally speaking, i love the outfit and i'm glad that they are using his original Red Robin symbol, i'm kind of tired of the diet cola Robin outfit at this point.

----------


## Aahz

> I think it may be a problem with the perception of the batfamily at times as this 'group package' when (outside of batman and the idea of robin) they were never really created to compliment one another in the first place. They are not like the modern ninja turtles who each have an 'assigned role', so forcing them each into such a thing makes them either seem useless since they don't fit in, or wildly exaggerated in only one aspect of their skill set. Long story short its unsatisfying on almost all fronts.


The thing is you allready king of have these roles. 
- Tim, Barbara, Luke and maybe Duke are the smart guys
- Cass and Jean-Paul are the fighters
- Dick and Kate are leaders

Just in Jasons case the writers seem to refuse to give him anything where could stand out. 

But I think the bigger problem is more that they put characters in the stories just to have them there but don't really have plot for them, and than just add some side plots to the story.

----------


## Godlike13

> But I think the bigger problem is more that they put characters in the stories just to have them there but don't really have plot for them, and than just add some side plots to the story.


Ya, I think that's exactly the big problem. Like you say it's more about the fan service of having them there then actually having a story for them all.

----------


## RedBird

> The thing is you allready king of have these roles. 
> - Tim, Barbara, Luke and maybe Duke are the smart guys
> - Cass and Jean-Paul are the fighters
> - Dick and Kate are leaders
> 
> Just in Jasons case the writers seem to refuse to give him anything where could stand out. 
> 
> But I think the bigger problem is more that they put characters in the stories just to have them there but don't really have plot for them, and than just add some side plots to the story.


And that just goes back to my very first point, you need someone who actually gives a crap about 5-7 characters. In Kings case, I dont usually get the feeling that King has that much love for any of these characters, considering how either ooc or bland they feel, or if he does love to write them, it doesnt show imo.

I think you are spot on about characters being added just for the sake of it, at least in some circumstances, I'm sure editorial see it as, the more characters they feature (especially ones connected like the batfam are) then the better the sales and public reception. Which leaves writers who barely give a toss about a max of 3 character let alone the 8 they have to write now and so they either shape the story around only a handful, leaving the others to the dust, or each role feels flat as they meander about trying to tie the 'extra' characters to pointless subplots. 

Although I'm usually irked at batfam members being left out of specifically _'family based'_ events, especially after the new52s _decimation_ of the group, if they are left out of events they would have otherwise been shoved to the side for, or mistreated throughout, then I'm genuinely happy to _not_ see them there. EG: Gotham Resistance. At least then you know you are getting the story the writer actually wanted to put out, and you don't have to worry about any other characters getting snubbed or jobbed or tossed aside, or feeling useless in any way shape or form. Feels a lot more genuine and less like the writer is bullsh**ing me by their fleeting attempts to pander to me as a fan of these characters.




> Ya, I think that's exactly the big problem. Like you say it's more about the fan service of having them there then actually having a story for them all.


In other words, exactly this.

----------


## RedBird

> We talked of it for a bit, but it was mostly "wow it looks cool" and then move on . Personally speaking, i love the outfit and i'm glad that they are using his original Red Robin symbol, i'm kind of tired of the diet cola Robin outfit at this point.


Ugh you me both, I was hoping (like in Cass's case) that the outfit was a temporary story element, where upon Tynion was going to reveal the real outfit and redesign along the way, but after the fact that it wasnt changed in Tims biggest arc thus far, ALPOL, I'm getting a feeling its not gonna change anytime soon. But yeah man, I was pleasantly surprised to see the original RR symbol in BN, the hair color is a kinda strange change, but I think the designers thought to match his hair with his outfit in order to be more uniform I suppose, especially with the solid and bold colours of the 3d models.

----------


## Aioros22

> I swear to the f**king Presence if *Bombshells* has Cass and Jay interact before the main universe does...


I rather prefer it does for one simple reason. It doesn`t have the baggage of a Bat proper title and thus lives breathing room for the wrter to get it right. At this point I`m just interested in these two interacting that I don`t care if it`s in a proper Tec or Ratho. 

Not to get my hopes too high, too soon. This may not lead to anything, I`m just noting that in the last two issues, a good deal of items and themes associated with Jason`s comeback have been part of a main character who was indeed a mother/mentor figure to the younger Jason of tis world who perished in the Spanish Civil War and sh hasn`t recovered truly from such loss. 

It`s like in Gotham City Garage. I really like we get to see some Kara and Jason interactions there because Office isn`t going around telling the creative team what they shouldn`t do. They basically made Bruce the pragmatic villain of the show, they have carte blanche to go full gear and tell the story they`re looking for.

----------


## RedBird

toixx


I know I said it before, but I LOVE this outfit, I really do, even its color combo of black white and red looks so damn nice.

----------


## AlcorDee

So, this is really random but I was rereading a Death in the Family(boy was that an emotional rollercoaster and irony of future retcons) and did anyone ever tell Jason what a spirited attempt Batsy made to kill Joker after his death? I know future books like to pretend Batman was too good for it, but turns out the actual plot wrapped up in him barking at Superman to "find his body."

----------


## RedBird

> So, this is really random but I was rereading a Death in the Family(boy was that an emotional rollercoaster and irony of future retcons) and did anyone ever tell Jason what a spirited attempt Batsy made to kill Joker after his death? I know future books like to pretend Batman was too good for it, but turns out the actual plot wrapped up in him barking at Superman to "find his body."


Nope, don't think so, at least not in any direct way. Just another unfulfilled element of that story, despite how much more interesting and emotional it makes the whole narrative between the Jason and Bruce.

----------


## EMarie

There's actually a lot of stuff they haven't touched since DITF. The Shelia/mom plot, how Willis knows Shiva, why Bruce didn't know the name of Jason's mother on his birth certificate when that's his adopted son and if/how the family knows what really happened. 

I think the only reference of Shelia betraying Jason was given by Damian under Tomasi. I have no idea how he could know that since no one told Bruce. And Bruce buried Shelia next to Jason which I don't think he'd do if he knew.

----------


## AlcorDee

Maybe Damian knew from Talia? I mean, she was taking care of Jason when he was half dead before pit and crazed right after. He might've revealed stuff with all the nightmares and stuff? 

And Bruce not knowing about his birth mom felt so ridiculous. Sure, he wasn't as paranoid back then so he may have accepted it when Catherine was the only mom Jason knew but still, that's the kind of stuff you'd check to make sure it's not going to bite you in the ass later. I mean what if it HAD been Shiva(and I lol'd so hard at her confessing to not having any kids under truth serum. Trained to be resistant or retcon?)

But I guess everything wasn't online back then or paper trail may have been lost or destroyed or... idk how citizenship records were kept back the. Would he have needed to break into a government facility? It was a different, more easy going Batman but it still felt weird.

----------


## RedBird

guys guys GUYS

Check out the latest bombshell.....





Jasons killer who had felt incredibly guilty about her 'sin' after everything had wrapped up last time.

In fact check out what she was eyeing around the end of the last bombshells series...

----------


## RedBird

The thing is last time the pits were used the person they threw in turned into a minotaur beast, so I think may come back as a monster. He may even be the same one used on cover #17, who knows.

----------


## G-Potion

> There's actually a lot of stuff they haven't touched since DITF. The Shelia/mom plot, how Willis knows Shiva, why Bruce didn't know the name of Jason's mother on his birth certificate when that's his adopted son and if/how the family knows what really happened. 
> 
> I think the only reference of Shelia betraying Jason was given by Damian under Tomasi. I have no idea how he could know that since no one told Bruce. And Bruce buried Shelia next to Jason which I don't think he'd do if he knew.


One thing N52 and Rebirth both disappoint me is exactly this. Figure DC would keep the details of Jason's death fuzzy rather than owning up to their victim blaming practice.

----------


## G-Potion

> The thing is last time the pits were used the person they threw in turned into a minotaur beast, so I think may come back as a monster. He may even be the same one used on cover #17, who knows.


Nooo they can't leave bread crumbs all the way and not have him return full capacity. :0

----------


## G-Potion

Btw, has Talia made an appearance yet? Or was it Talia in the page?

----------


## G-Potion

> toixx
> 
> I know I said it before, but I LOVE this outfit, I really do, even its color combo of black white and red looks so damn nice.


I think the artist usually draws Tim and Jason in equal amount and so far I've seen two of Komuso Jason but none of Ninja Tim.

----------


## RedBird

> Btw, has Talia made an appearance yet? Or was it Talia in the page?


Yeah of course, in fact that women in the purple veil revealing Cheetah is her.

----------


## G-Potion

Some more art from RHATO#18 by https://twitter.com/S_Sandoval_Art

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah of course, in fact that women in the purple veil revealing Cheetah is her.


Ah thanks! It's strange to see her as the whitest person in the room.

----------


## RedBird

> I think the artist usually draws Tim and Jason in equal amount and so far I've seen two of Komuso Jason but none of Ninja Tim.


I guess since this artists work usually has a quiet serenity about it, Jasons outfit may just fit their calm and pretty aesthetic more, what with the chillaxed kimono he's got on. Seriously I always figured Jasons outfit felt the most casual of the boys, it screams much more 'biker' or 'rando dude in a leather jacket' than it does vigilante. And now even in BN he still feels dressed down and chill compared to everyone samurai/ninja outfits. I like it, reflecting the casual and IDGAF attitude that he likes to put on.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I guess since this artists work usually has a quiet serenity about it, Jasons outfit may just fit their calm and pretty aesthetic more, what with the chillaxed kimono he's got on. Seriously I always figured Jasons outfit felt the most casual of the boys, it screams much more 'biker' or 'rando dude in a leather jacket' than it does vigilante. And now even in BN he still feels dressed down and chill compared to everyone samurai/ninja outfits. I like it, reflecting the casual and IDGAF attitude that he likes to put on.


That's true. But whereas usually he's still the most covered/armored of the bunch, now he's like, cosplaying this as authentically as possible. Except for the pipe of course.

----------


## G-Potion

> I guess since this artists work usually has a quiet serenity about it, *Jasons outfit may just fit their calm and pretty aesthetic more*, what with the chillaxed kimono he's got on.


I wish it worked that way for me. Some how my komuso Jason is looking like a rock star so you understand how stuck I am at this point... D:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Some more art from RHATO#18 by https://twitter.com/S_Sandoval_Art


Those are nice but his header is the best of the bunch

----------


## RedBird

> Those are nice but his header is the best of the bunch


Oooh theres already a coloured version, nice!

----------


## kiwiliko

> I wish it worked that way for me. Some how my komuso Jason is looking like a rock star so you understand how stuck I am at this point... D:


I mean Tim does have some rockstar hair happening. (Damian too if you count how wild Screamo hairstyles get). Trust that inner rock star.

----------


## G-Potion

> Those are nice but his header is the best of the bunch


Oh wow I didn't realize there's already a colored version of it. Look blasting cool!

----------


## G-Potion

> I mean Tim does have some rockstar hair happening. (Damian too if you count how wild Screamo hairstyles get). Trust that inner rock star.


He'll be a rock star, kiwi. Playing uh... rock sutra?

----------


## TheCape

496dd1d377cc79d7efa181eaf2165a5e--jaytim-tim-drake.jpg
White streak Jason and Unternet Red Robin.

----------


## TheCape

> I mean Tim does have some rockstar hair happening. (Damian too if you count how wild Screamo hairstyles get). Trust that inner rock star.


He is the 90s Robin, he rocked that hair do like no other before him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Some more art from RHATO#18 by https://twitter.com/S_Sandoval_Art


Man, that linework and inks are just gorgeaous clean. 

I`m actually looking forward to how Loedbell will use the Creeper and wheras he adds something to the Outlaws or not. I know Creeper from the JLI, cartoons and an appearance here and there like in Hawk&Dove and I may get to kow him better.

----------


## Aioros22

> guys guys GUYS
> 
> Check out the latest bombshell.....
> 
> Jasons killer who had felt incredibly guilty about her 'sin' after everything had wrapped up last time.


Yeah, didn`t wnat to spoil the last cliffhanger page with Cheetah but now you get why the heads up  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/

----------


## RedBird

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


Ah beat me to it!  :Big Grin: 
I'm still impressed that in this clearly Mad Max inspired world Jason got to be decked out in the original outfit.

----------


## RedBird

uuuuuh also, another image from a tumblr claiming Soy posted this, again. [x]

----------


## G-Potion

> uuuuuh also, another image from a tumblr claiming Soy posted this, again. [x]


So i take it its not on his instagram anymore?

----------


## G-Potion

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


I like! Loving the expression.

----------


## kiwiliko

> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


Whoo nice to know his leather aesthetic will work in almost any alternate universe.

----------


## kiwiliko

> uuuuuh also, another image from a tumblr claiming Soy posted this, again. [x]


I don't know about anyone else but I thought this felt more  likely to be personal art. It's being colored in even while lines aren't finished like some of Soys Ninja Hood ideas and given we know the February issue along with #18(?) are under different artists it seems unlikely he's going to do that much of a head start on 2018 issues.

That said it's very cute and I do hope it's not a thing for artists to get in trouble for ship art. Some parts of tumblr seem to quite vocal about their dislike so hopefully there's no harassing of creators over this.

----------


## EMarie

I've actually seen a couple pretty happy about it in the comments. So far the negative reactions I've seen have amounted to "LOL whether or not it happens I'm saying they totally get with who my headcanon is not each other." As for the artist getting harassed has that happened before? I know it's tumblr but outside fan artist's I haven't heard of it happening to a pro. I hate to think so.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I've actually seen a couple pretty happy about it in the comments. So far the negative reactions I've seen have amounted to "LOL whether or not it happens I'm saying they totally get with who my headcanon is not each other." As for the artist getting harassed has that happened before? I know it's tumblr but outside fan artist's I haven't heard of it happening to a pro. I hate to think so.


It hasn't happened to any artist I follow but Lobdell has found himself on the receiving end of such harassing multiple times in the past.

----------


## G-Potion

> uuuuuh also, another image from a tumblr claiming Soy posted this, again.


By the way, the image is still on Soy's weibo.

----------


## RedBird

> By the way, the image is still on Soy's weibo.


So it is his! Confirmed!

Edit: also from what I understand through google translate, there is a lot more positive comments here for the pairing, so that's nice to see.

----------


## G-Potion

> So it is his! Confirmed!
> 
> Edit: also from what I understand through google translate, there is a lot more positive comments here for the pairing, so that's nice to see.


Asian fans are generally very respectful from what I've seen.

----------


## G-Potion

Chibi Red Hood can be cute too. [X]

----------


## G-Potion

I'm actually rooting for Reed Hood to have long hair.  :Cool: 

http://yichuanhandai.lofter.com

----------


## RedBird

OOOOOh check it out!  :Big Grin:  [x]

----------


## G-Potion

> OOOOOh check it out!


HOLY BASKET!!  :EEK!:

----------


## adrikito

The preview is out, since 7th of december;

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...he-outlaws-17/

Or I am not the first to put this?

----------


## G-Potion

> The preview is out, since 7th of december;
> 
> http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com...he-outlaws-17/
> 
> Or I am not the first to put this?


Dark did already. Usually we put RHATO previews in separate threads so thats why you don't see them here.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_p0gbtfH7Wo1wcduqco1_500.jpg
I posted this in the Tim's thread, but i wanted it here just to show where Jason got his dramatic flair, like father, like son indeed :Stick Out Tongue: . (Seriously what is Brice doing there?).

----------


## RedBird

[x] Dawww

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I just found someone making the theory that everything during RHATO V1 was Jason having an hallucination...


Yeah.

Atom's banter with Jason

----------


## Aioros22

> I just found someone making the theory that everything during RHATO V1 was Jason having an hallucination...


Lol, no. 

Atom`s dialogue sound standard for the game. His bits with Darkseid stand out the most but his stuff with Jason are so so. Half expected, these two never had a relationship going for them. 

Not sure I got the sidekick part regarding Atom. Is it because Silver Age/Modern Atom are supposed to have taken the name from the Golden Age/JSA Atom?

----------


## EMarie

> I just found someone making the theory that everything during RHATO V1 was Jason having an hallucination...


Why? Because it's not mentioned much or because the theory maker didn't like it? We recently got two nods to it. Kate mentioned "rotating" membership which acknowledges the previous team. Then we got a Jason and Croc bit alluding to their friendship with Roy. Without the first volume we wouldn't have so much great Jason character development. Plus we did have issues that tied into events. This theory makes no sense.

----------


## G-Potion

> Atom's banter with Jason


I dig the bits about Jason's therapy. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Dawww


The way this artist draws Bizarro forehead/eyebrow(s)? is 10/10.

----------


## Aahz

> Not sure I got the sidekick part regarding Atom. Is it because Silver Age/Modern Atom are supposed to have taken the name from the Golden Age/JSA Atom?


Thats because the Atom in Injustice is not the "Silver Age Atom" (Ray Palmer) but Rayan Choi who took over for him as Atom in 2006.

The actual Legacy Characters of Al Pratt the "Golden Age Atom" is Albert Rothstein aka "Atom Smasher"/"Nuklon" or Grant Emmerson "Damage".

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I just found someone making the theory that everything during RHATO V1 was Jason having an hallucination...


Seriously?! *face palm*

I'm going to guess that the person simply didn't care for RHATO V1 and that this "theory" is really just a personal head canon made up to deal with that fact. There is literally nothing that suggests that the events outlined in RHATO V1 never happened and as far as Lobdell is concerned it all happened anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

Well I guess for some people, if RHATO V1 isn't referenced in a big way by other titles, that's enough for them to consider it not canon anymore. Funny how that works.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thats because the Atom in Injustice is not the "Silver Age Atom" (Ray Palmer) but Rayan Choi who took over for him as Atom in 2006.
> 
> The actual Legacy Characters of Al Pratt the "Golden Age Atom" is Albert Rothstein aka "Atom Smasher"/"Nuklon" or Grant Emmerson "Damage".


A lesson to never assume things. I just had Ray Palmer in my mind and went with it. Doesn`t help that I never read anything with Choi. 

What are y`all expectations regarding the second chapter of RATHO and the Suicide Squad? Apart from some relationship dinamics like Jason and Croc talking about Roy (which incidentily will drop out any "it was a dream" theory rearding Vol 1). 

In terms of tangible actionl action, where do you see Bizarro taking his two buds?

----------


## Aioros22

https://ayinggg.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Not really NSFW but slashy. That said, there`s more of him and Black Mask which lends credit to shifting Roman with Jason in recent years in fandom`s eyes. 

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well I guess for some people, if RHATO V1 isn't referenced in a big way by other titles, that's enough for them to consider it not canon anymore. Funny how that works.


I've honestly come to expect very little in the way of referencing anything regarding Jason in books outside of his own these days. None of the current crop of writers in the mainline universe seem all that interested in even using the character, which is sad, and when they do he's not always being written in a way that's consistent with his characterization in RHATO anyway. 




> What are y`all expectations regarding the second chapter of RATHO and the Suicide Squad? Apart from some relationship dinamics like Jason and Croc talking about Roy (which incidentily will drop out any "it was a dream" theory rearding Vol 1). 
> 
> In terms of tangible actionl action, where do you see Bizarro taking his two buds?


Biz took Deadshot and Captain Boomerang with him right? Makes me wonder why he needs two guys with distance weapons for starters. Is he expecting a, for lack of a better phase, a gunfight? That could be interesting but then again there isn't supposed to be anyone here that they know of. Does Biz know something that he isn't telling the others? Probably. I just hope he doesn't slip into another one of those episodes where he goes back to be being the normal Biz in the middle of all this, especially if his teammates aren't going to be nearby. I'm very curious as to what it is Biz is looking for while they are on this supposed humanitarian mission.

I also find it interesting that the groups are mixed metas and normal people: Biz and Deadshot and Boomerang, Artemis and Harley, Jason and Croc. Sounds to me like Biz is expecting trouble of the sort that will require a meta in each group. I know he probably divided the Outlaws so that they all can also keep an eye on the Squad and to also divide the Squad but I find the groupings to be telling. Biz is expecting trouble of some sort is the feeling I'm getting. Either that or he's dividing the groups so that they won't be able to stop him doing whatever it is he is really there to do.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Source

----------


## G-Potion

All the red heads. XD

----------


## G-Potion

One more Red Hood fanfilm coming out soon. The guy playing Red Hood is the same Red Hood in Nightwing:The Series.

*RED HOOD: IT*

----------


## G-Potion

> https://ayinggg.tumblr.com/


I look at those for a while. Now I have a better direction for my komuso Jason art. _Unstuck_.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, I`ll be watching for that one. Keep it coming!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I look at those for a while. Now I have a better direction for my komuso Jason art. _Unstuck_.


Worth noting this is the same artist that goes by Mrs. Wilson on Twitter.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I look at those for a while. Now I have a better direction for my komuso Jason art. _Unstuck_.


I'll be watching out for your Reed hood as well then  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I'll be watching out for your Reed hood as well then


Don't leave me to walk this path alone kiwi!! I need to see yours as well!  :Big Grin:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I look at those for a while. Now I have a better direction for my komuso Jason art. _Unstuck_.


I'll be looking forward to seeing what you come up with for it.

----------


## G-Potion

It just dawned on me... That is Jason's bat logo. Interesting that he posted it on the issue where Jason should question his Red Hood identity.

(Yep, it's already confirmed. That's our boy there.)

----------


## RedBird

[Mirror]

----------


## RedBird

> It just dawned on me... That is Jason's bat logo. Interesting that he posted it on the issue where Jason should question his Red Hood identity.
> 
> (Yep, it's already confirmed. That's our boy there.)


Oh nice! I hadn't even noticed the symbol. (I think my eyes just scanned over it thinkin it was the TDKR fat bat logo)

You know, I assumed Soy was (in general) fairly new to the character when he started working on the Arkham Knight Genesis series, so I wonder how much he knows. Do you think he is aware of Earth 15? Or is this just him having more fun with the character.  :Big Grin: 




> Source


Haha, thats cute, and look at the height difference between Jay and Arty, people have really latched onto that :P

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh nice! I hadn't even noticed the symbol. (I think my eyes just scanned over it thinkin it was the TDKR fat bat logo)
> 
> You know, I assumed Soy was (in general) fairly new to the character when he started working on the Arkham Knight Genesis series, so I wonder how much he knows. Do you think he is aware of Earth 15? Or is this just him having more fun with the character.


Yeah I'm surprised and happy that he's caught up on the character lore. Really feel the love for the character from the creative team. Even the letterer has said that Jay is his favorite robin.

As for the pic I think it could be story related. Remember that one interview with Lobdell where he shared a pitch about the Outlaws going undercover as the Trinity? Hopefully this means that editorial finally approved of it.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah I'm surprised and happy that he's caught up on the character lore. Really feel the love for the character from the creative team. Even the letterer has said that Jay is his favorite robin.
> 
> As for the pic I think it could be story related. Remember that one interview with Lobdell where he shared a pitch about the Outlaws going undercover as the Trinity? Hopefully this means that editorial finally approved of it.


Woah really? I don't think I saw that interview, now that would be interesting. I wonder if Lobdell had intended for it to be a cooperation between the two trinities or if its the rhato gang just using their 'good' counterparts as a make shift disguise.  :Big Grin: 

Also do you perhaps have a link for the letterers statement? I wasn't aware that he was invested in the character.

----------


## G-Potion

> Woah really? I don't think I saw that interview, now that would be interesting. I wonder if Lobdell had intended for it to be a cooperation between the two trinities or if its the rhato gang just using their 'good' counterparts as a make shift disguise. 
> 
> Also do you perhaps have a link for the letterers statement? I wasn't aware that he was invested in the character.


Yep. I'll see if I can dig up the interview with Lobdell too.
Link to Twit.

----------


## G-Potion

> Woah really? I don't think I saw that interview, now that would be interesting. I wonder if Lobdell had intended for it to be a cooperation between the two trinities or if its the rhato gang just using their 'good' counterparts as a make shift disguise.


It's here. Start from 1:15:00. Listening to this again makes wonder if some ideas were scrapped or just delayed. 

https://soundcloud.com/down-and-nerd...nd-the-outlaws

----------


## RedBird

> Yep. I'll see if I can dig up the interview with Lobdell too.
> Link to Twit.





> It's here. Start from 1:15:00. Listening to this again makes wonder if some ideas were scrapped or just delayed. 
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/down-and-nerd...nd-the-outlaws


Ay cheers for that! I was planning on doing a little hunting to find the interview too, thanks for saving me the trouble.  :Smile: 

Edit: Oh wait! I have heard this podcast. Now I remember it involved the crime syndicate. Even better  :Big Grin: 

Also its a shame that the idea of rhatov1 and v2 meeting has been either clearly scrapped or pushed, that was intended to happen before issue 16  :Frown: , though its interesting that his desire to have Creeper come along certainly became real.

----------


## RedBird

_Forgive Me_
Another beautiful piece from akubakaarts, the same artist who spoke of now loving the character after playing Arkham Knight. Her earlier piece being a tortured robin Jason with wings, previously linked here. Here it is again.

----------


## G-Potion

> _Forgive Me_
> Another beautiful piece from akubakaarts, the same artist who spoke of now loving the character after playing Arkham Knight. Her earlier piece being a tortured robin Jason with wings, previously linked here. Here it is again.


Arkham Knight fan arts are just pain everywhere.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> Also its a shame that the idea of rhatov1 and v2 meeting has been either clearly scrapped or pushed, that was intended to happen before issue 16 , though its interesting that his desire to have Creeper come along certainly became real.


But I don't know how it would work though. Didn't he say like, the two teams are from different universes or something? I would have wanted it to happen but certainly not at the cost of removing the OG Outlaws from the main universe.

----------


## RedBird

> But I don't know how it would work though. Didn't he say like, the two teams are from different universes or something? I would have wanted it to happen but certainly not at the cost of removing the OG Outlaws from the main universe.


Yeah, thats a good point. I certainly don't want that canon to be removed. Although I wouldn't mind a 'for old times sake' team up to happen, not anytime soon perhaps, but eventually.

----------


## EMarie

I'd certainty love to get Roy and Kori to give their thoughts on Bizarro and Artemis.

----------


## Aioros22

At most it`s been delayed because of Office sheenigans or Titan writers but as soon a window of opportunity opens, Loedbell will do it. Even Abnett hasn`t scrapped it out of continuity, despite his handling. Crepper possibly joining in got my absolute interest. He`s a fascinating character as Dikto creations tend to be and visually can either fill in for Joker`s Daugther or Bizarro during the transition he`s about to suffer. I just recently read his 1997 run and is bonkers. Vertigo-ish good kind of bonkers and a great study of a trinity being composed of the clash of two different personas in the same body.

----------


## scary harpy

> Crepper possibly joining in got my absolute interest. He`s a fascinating character as Dikto creations tend to be and visually can either fill in for Joker`s Daugther or Bizarro during the transition he`s about to suffer. I just recently read his 1997 run and is bonkers. Vertigo-ish good kind of bonkers and a great study of a trinity being composed of the clash of two different personas in the same body.


His totally irrational personality maybe fascinating to some but his abilities are _lackluster_. He's an acrobatic fighter with a healing factor. He jumps too. 

With Artemis and Red Hood, Creeper does not bring anything to the table.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Don't leave me to walk this path alone kiwi!! I need to see yours as well!


Ask and ye shall receive  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Ask and ye shall receive


YOOOOOOOO This is beautiful Kiwi! Love the deep maroon tones practically glowing within the snowy landscape as well as the tranquil atmosphere. 10/10  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> His totally irrational personality maybe fascinating to some but his abilities are _lackluster_. He's an acrobatic fighter with a healing factor. He jumps too. 
> 
> With Artemis and Red Hood, Creeper does not bring anything to the table.


It seems obvious you need to read on the Creeper outside maybe random appearances. All his physical abilities are enchanted. His laugther activates the nervous system to a extreme reaction to fear and pain to the point of people having a psycothic breakdown to being knocked out, his fighting style is unpredictable (eg: not bad either, Ryder is actually supposed to be competent in studying martial arts to protect his own his arse on theline of duty as a investigation reporter), can climb walls and move acrobatically more ala Spiderman than Nigthwing and his healing ability is high to the point where he could regenerate his body back after being torn apart. He`s not invulnerable but he can take punishment laugthing. 

Plus, it`s a Dikto character, so it`s interesting simbology to read.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Ask and ye shall receive


Beautiful!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ask and ye shall receive


I really love this, especially your use of color and shading. I like the warm glow of the maroon and reds. It's really beautiful work kiwi.

----------


## Aioros22

Damn that`s a fantastic piece, especially the warm contrasting the shading. Well done! Stll figuring out how Jason will look like under the lamp..

In the meantime, Red Hood And The Outlaws #18 by Guillem March. Welcome the new member!

----------


## G-Potion

> At most it`s been delayed because of Office sheenigans or Titan writers but as soon a window of opportunity opens, Loedbell will do it. Even Abnett hasn`t scrapped it out of continuity, despite his handling. Crepper possibly joining in got my absolute interest. He`s a fascinating character as Dikto creations tend to be and visually can either fill in for Joker`s Daugther or Bizarro during the transition he`s about to suffer. I just recently read his 1997 run and is bonkers. Vertigo-ish good kind of bonkers and a great study of a trinity being composed of the clash of two different personas in the same body.


How would you reckon his dynamics with Jason will be?

----------


## G-Potion

> Ask and ye shall receive


Kiwiiiii that's absolutely amazing how warm it feels for such a cold scenery!! And I love the formation of the rocks and the sparse plants and Jason looks great my eyes keep being drawn to his shoulder where the red cape is idk what a greatly shaped shoulder and Tim with the umbrella and soft expression his Red Robin emblem looks delicious I want to eat it aaaaa!!

Feel so motivated to finish my own art after seeing this. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> In the meantime, Red Hood And The Outlaws #18 by Guillem March. Welcome the new member!


Ha! Jason gets mad at Bizarro. That's a first.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

OMG what is this evennnn.  :Big Grin:

----------


## scary harpy

> All his physical abilities are *enchanted*. His _laughter_ activates the nervous system to a extreme reaction to fear and pain to the point of people having a _psychotic_ breakdown to being knocked out, his fighting style is unpredictable (eg: not bad either, Ryder is actually supposed to be competent in studying martial arts to protect his own his arse on _the line_ of duty as a investigation reporter), can climb walls and move acrobatically more ala Spiderman than Nigthwing and his healing ability is high to the point where he could regenerate his body back after being torn apart. He`s not invulnerable but he can take punishment _laughing_. 
> 
> Plus, it`s a Dikto character, so it`s interesting simbology to read.


I admit I did not know about all these enhanced abilities. I don't think I've seen him portrayed this way.

If he were portrayed this way, it would be a good _start_. If he could actually wall-crawl like Spider-Man, that would be good.

Thank you.

----------


## kiwiliko

> YOOOOOOOO This is beautiful Kiwi! Love the deep maroon tones practically glowing within the snowy landscape as well as the tranquil atmosphere. 10/10





> I really love this, especially your use of color and shading. I like the warm glow of the maroon and reds. It's really beautiful work kiwi.





> Kiwiiiii that's absolutely amazing how warm it feels for such a cold scenery!! And I love the formation of the rocks and the sparse plants and Jason looks great my eyes keep being drawn to his shoulder where the red cape is idk what a greatly shaped shoulder and Tim with the umbrella and soft expression his Red Robin emblem looks delicious I want to eat it aaaaa!!
> 
> Feel so motivated to finish my own art after seeing this. XD


Ahhh thank you for your lovely words!

@G I am such a sucker for all the snowy Japan environments you have no idea how much I want to see the family get to enjoy the new setting. Soft Batfamily is my jam!! I'm looking forward for your Komuso Jay tooo. (Tim was suppose to be Dami just so I could tribute for the two boys with the most out there design but I'm sorry Damian you were too out there. That thought lasted 2 minutes it took me to realize Dames has all the color scheme design of a stoplight decked in silver jewellery.)

----------


## kiwiliko

> Damn that`s a fantastic piece, especially the warm contrasting the shading. Well done! Stll figuring out how Jason will look like under the lamp..


Please DC, all I ask is Jason's not bald under it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Please DC, all I ask is Jason's not bald under it.


Me to kiwi. Me too.

----------


## Barbatos666

Creeper is joining the OL? That's awesome. I hope its not New 52 Creeper though.

----------


## Deffinition

man I still can't really get into him, he's handled pretty badly especially in the older stuff, ill have to check out some new red hood stuff

----------


## RedBird

> Ha! Jason gets mad at Bizarro. That's a first.


No no, Jason is like a father, so he's not _mad_, he's just _disappointed._  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Aw hell
https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...04458261352449

----------


## RedBird

> Aw hell
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...04458261352449


That a good or bad 'Aw hell'?

Anyways nice to see Guillem still on Red Hood. I thought he was officially done with DC variants. (I think I was misinformed)

----------


## Aioros22

> Creeper is joining the OL? That's awesome. I hope its not New 52 Creeper though.


New52 Creeper looked nothing alike the classic rendition. It`s Dikto look or don`t bother.

----------


## Aioros22

> I admit I did not know about all these enhanced abilities. I don't think I've seen him portrayed this way.
> 
>  If he were portrayed this way, it would be a good start. If he could actually wall-crawl like Spider-Man, that would be good.
> 
>  Thank you.


What may happen is that random apearances don`t explore him througly, he`s not an easy caracter to write. True enough, most Dikto creations aren`t. In his most recent appearance in Deathstroke (#10) he`s trailing behind a series of hits done by a copycat of Slade that upon creeping on him shoots him point blank in the head and that still didn`t kill him. The earlier example is IIRC this one



You should check the following runs: 

. Beware the Creeper by Dikto himself

. The Creeper (1997) my favorite run of his and it looks like a Vertigo book + his One Million version that was interesting since it had a technological shamanic look. 

. The 2006 rebooted mini series taking place in Batman`s earlier years. 

And while it`s Dikto look for me, I don`t mind artists pushing it like they did in the 2006 mini, where the Boa he wears looks all spiky like a ragged demon cape



or shorts instead underwear like in his 1997 run



I am really looking forward for Loedbell, who excells in exploring dark psychology, tackling a character rif with it. Let alone another character with a clear duality regarding straight jacket morality in fighting crime and curruption! And I while I loved what preview art I seen of him in the book already I also want to see Soy visually having fun with him. I think he will.

----------


## Aioros22

> That a good or bad 'Aw hell'?
> 
> Anyways nice to see Guillem still on Red Hood. I thought he was officially done with DC variants. (I think I was misinformed)


That`s the best kind of aw hell yeah to me  :Wink: 

Glad Guillem is sticking with the variants, he`s quality art.

----------


## RedBird

> And while it`s Dikto look for me, I don`t mind artists pushing it like they did in the 2006 mini, where the Boa he wears looks all spiky like a ragged demon cape


Funny you mention that series, I spotted an interesting panel within issue #2



lol déjà vu

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> That a good or bad 'Aw hell'?
> 
> Anyways nice to see Guillem still on Red Hood. I thought he was officially done with DC variants. (I think I was misinformed)


Confused. That is the Variant for the Date issue. 

March is the Variant Cover artist, any idea that he's done comes from the fact he's spanish and he often tweets/posts of instagram about his "last" variant. That is because he's mixing up "Last" with "Latest" since Last means both in Spanish.

----------


## EMarie

> Confused. That is the Variant for the Date issue.


Artemis and Jason don't look like their fighting each other if that's what you're confused about. Neither are aiming or even looking at each other. The other cover has them in a bar fight so maybe this is just another take on that.

----------


## scary harpy

> What may happen is that random apearances don`t explore him througly, he`s not an easy caracter to write. True enough, most Dikto creations aren`t. In his most recent appearance in Deathstroke (#10) he`s trailing behind a series of hits done by a copycat of Slade that upon creeping on him shoots him point blank in the head and that still didn`t kill him. The earlier example is IIRC this one
> 
> You should check the following runs: 
> 
> . Beware the Creeper by Dikto himself
> 
> . The Creeper (1997) my favorite run of his and it looks like a Vertigo book + his One Million version that was interesting since it had a technological shamanic look. 
> 
> . The 2006 rebooted mini series taking place in Batman`s earlier years. 
> ...


Since you seem knowledgeable, is that red stuff back hair?

Thanks.

----------


## RedBird

> Confused. That is the Variant for the Date issue. 
> 
> March is the Variant Cover artist, any idea that he's done comes from the fact he's spanish and he often tweets/posts of instagram about his "last" variant. That is because he's mixing up "Last" with "Latest" since Last means both in Spanish.


Ah I see, thanks for clearing that up and also, I don't think they are fighting on the cover if that's your confusion, they aren't even looking at each other, plus Jason is clearly in front of her rather than in a classic side to side vs stance. They seem to be fighting enemies together, enemies that are off screen.

----------


## G-Potion

> Aw hell
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...04458261352449


If they are fighting each other... that date is not going well. Aww.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Funny you mention that series, I spotted an interesting panel within issue #2
> 
> 
> 
> lol déjà vu


Oh my oh my..... this is gonna be good.

----------


## Aioros22

> Since you seem knowledgeable, is that red stuff back hair?
> 
> Thanks.


Originally, it`s part of a whole masquerade he quickly fashioned to go after a scoop and that ends up becoming the Creeper persona. It`s a Boa. In the 2006 reboot the whole look just shows up after he`s shot and dumped in chemicals so I guess you can say it`s part of him. I supposed is to give that sort of mane to make the character intimidating and to visually play it around like an actual demon.

----------


## Aioros22

> Funny you mention that series, I spotted an interesting panel within issue #2
> 
> 
> 
> lol déjà vu


Haha, I had the same reaction since I did not read this at the time of publication but years later. This was first put out after Infinite Crisis so _Under the Red Hood_ was still very fresh! Nice to see that Jason`s return left an impression that did _not_ go unoticed by other wtiters right out of the gate  :Wink:

----------


## CPSparkles

Jason and Jerry by OTA

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason and Jerry by OTA


Haha. It's ok. He will succeed, one day. 
And Jerry is still oblivious of course.

----------


## RedBird

I just like the implication that he is sitting and watching tv with the turkey XD

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/Vorimar_Lee

----------


## Aioros22

Karate Kid vs. Red Hood by Bob Q

----------


## Assam

> Karate Kid vs. Red Hood by Bob Q


I'm sure whoever drew this is probably a big Jason fan, but all I'm thinking is "Oh this poor nerd is about to have a hole kicked through his chest."  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

People though the same thing before Batman fought him twice and had no holes. 

Exposed  :Cool:

----------


## Assam

> People though the same thing before Batman fought him twice and had no holes. 
> 
> Exposed


Pure Batwank (especially with the dialogue in one of those scenes) Made about as much sense as Bruce holding his own against Darkseid in H2H would

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'm sure whoever drew this is probably a big Jason fan, but all I'm thinking is "Oh this poor nerd is about to have a hole kicked through his chest."


Huh. I saw it on youtube a pretty long time ago but wouldn't this be a reference to one of the JL animated movies? I distinctly remember a scene where karate kid and a girl with wings ambushed Robin Jay while he was working with computers. I'm going to see if I can find that movie scene again but if someone else also remembers where that's from some help would be appreciated too.

----------


## kiwiliko

> https://twitter.com/Vorimar_Lee


Dawww took me a second to notice but she has a little robin on the arm.

----------


## RedBird

> Huh. I saw it on youtube a pretty long time ago but wouldn't this be a reference to one of the JL animated movies? I distinctly remember a scene where karate kid and a girl with wings ambushed Robin Jay while he was working with computers. I'm going to see if I can find that movie scene again but if someone else also remembers where that's from some help would be appreciated too.


Unfortunately that movie was not Robin Jay, there was just a lot of demand, (especially from the tumblr crowd) for it to be so, due to the 'snarky' attitude. However the creator/director confirmed that it was Dick Grayson.

EDIT: Nevermind my last sentence, I cannot find the proof that the director confirmed the character as Dick Grayson, the main idea behind the robin character seems to be left up to interpretation.

----------


## Aioros22

> Unfortunately that movie was not Robin Jay, there was just a lot of demand, (especially from the tumblr crowd) for it to be so, due to the 'snarky' attitude. However the creator/director confirmed that it was Dick Grayson.


Then they failed beautifully because it didn`t sound like Dick Grayson at all.

----------


## Aioros22

> Pure Batwank (especially with the dialogue in one of those scenes) Made about as much sense as Bruce holding his own against Darkseid in H2H would


I think at this point you would just need to accept that Karate Kid Judo throwing classic Superboy mostly comes from classic Superboy not being particularly skilled in any martial arts. He was the topical superhero brawler and a sfar as experience flies, less so than Superman who also wasn`t as skilled as Wonder Woman. That has shifted somewhat along the years as well.

----------


## RedBird

> Then they failed beautifully because it didn`t sound like Dick Grayson at all.


Ugh You know what, the confusion about robins identity from that movie seems to be widespread, even the wiki doesnt know. I tried looking for where I saw the creator mention that it was Dick Robin and now I can't find it. :/ Oh bother

Please excuse my previous explanation Kiwi, although there is no confirmation that the Robin featured in the film JLAA trapped in time is Jason, despite what I mentioned, I cannot find proof that it is *Dick either. At the very least it seems the creators wanted to leave it open to interpretation, which I kinda hate since its a bit of a cop out and plays to the 'they are all basically clones right?' line of thinking about the characters. :/

*Honestly though I'm baffled, I could have SWORN that the director mentioned offhandedly that it was Dick. Mainly because I had been following him at the time and remember feeling a tad disappointed to read that, since the robin in the film very much sounded like Jason plus it would have been nice to have a Jason Robin film feature that didn't include him either being dead or having his skull bashed in eventually.

----------


## Assam

> Huh. I saw it on youtube a pretty long time ago but wouldn't this be a reference to one of the JL animated movies? I distinctly remember a scene where karate kid and a girl with wings ambushed Robin Jay while he was working with computers. I'm going to see if I can find that movie scene again but if someone else also remembers where that's from some help would be appreciated too.


Others already explained that it wasn't Robin Jay, but the special you're thinking of is JLA Adventures: Trapped in Time, a Target exclusive tie-in to a toy line. Also, the girl with wings was Dawnstar. 




> I think at this point you would just need to accept that Karate Kid Judo throwing classic Superboy mostly comes from classic Superboy not being particularly skilled in any martial arts. He was the topical superhero brawler and a sfar as experience flies, less so than Superman who also wasn`t as skilled as Wonder Woman. That has shifted somewhat along the years as well.


That's the example everyone loves to point to, but I've actually read the vast majority of Legion comics. Across multiple continuities (except for maybe the Threeboot which no one likes) Val has done stuff just as consistently crazy, stupid and awesome. (Fighting of Daxamites, stopping an earthquake by kicking the ground, etc.) 

Also, "I think at this point you would just need to accept". Am I suddenly someone who _really_ cares about feats and won't stop talking about how great Val is?

----------


## RedBird

Marcus To [x]

----------


## kiwiliko

> Ugh You know what, the confusion about robins identity from that movie seems to be widespread, even the wiki doesnt know. I tried looking for where I saw the creator mention that it was Dick Robin and now I can't find it. :/ Oh bother
> 
> Please excuse my previous explanation Kiwi, although there is no confirmation that the Robin featured in the film JLAA trapped in time is Jason, despite what I mentioned, I cannot find proof that it is *Dick either. At the very least it seems the creators wanted to leave it open to interpretation, which I kinda hate since its a bit of a cop out and plays to the 'they are all basically clones right?' line of thinking about the characters. :/
> 
> *Honestly though I'm baffled, I could have SWORN that the director mentioned offhandedly that it was Dick. Mainly because I had been following him at the time and remember feeling a tad disappointed to read that, since the robin in the film very much sounded like Jason plus it would have been nice to have a Jason Robin film feature that didn't include him either being dead or having his skull bashed in eventually.


Yeah no prob and thanks for the add on. I found the clip again and it looks like no one really knows which Robin either. As far as Im concerned it seems most animated Robin roles are either an amalgamation or some variation of Dick. (Personally I do see snarky Jason in that JLA scene though)

----------


## Aioros22

> Others already explained that it wasn't Robin Jay, but the special you're thinking of is JLA Adventures: Trapped in Time, a Target exclusive tie-in to a toy line. Also, the girl with wings was Dawnstar. 
> 
> That's the example everyone loves to point to, but I've actually read the vast majority of Legion comics. Across multiple continuities (except for maybe the Threeboot which no one likes) Val has done stuff just as consistently crazy, stupid and awesome. (Fighting of Daxamites, stopping an earthquake by kicking the ground, etc.) 
> 
> Also, "I think at this point you would just need to accept". Am I suddenly someone who _really_ cares about feats [B]and won't stop talking about how great Val is?


Frag, just noticed the shameful number of typos in my post but on to the matter: you`re always welcome in our mist, Church of Val xD

No, it`s not just that feat is that when it comes fighting other majorily skilled opponents (in this case, the usual best and some pretty popular of the DCU) Val has tend to lose a bit of that _super_ martial arts thing. Granted I think one of the confrontations had Val not be at full recovery or something but having none of the issues with me, I can`t confirm any suspictions. His next present day bout with Batman in Brave and The Bold by Waid and Perez have the two evenly matched. 

I`m guessing in writers mind, popularity aside which I am sure always plays a part backstage, it sorta fits in the old "well, rocks can`t fight back but Batman can!" 

Anyhow Jason got his training pedigree and a parry stunt in Sass Fu. That takes 3 points behind every hitbox as long he doesn`t shut up. And when does he ever, right?

As far as the movie goes, I havent seen anything naming which Robin is. Or is it in the toy line card?

----------


## Aahz

> Then they failed beautifully because it didn`t sound like Dick Grayson at all.


It is not like there is really a consistent take on Dick as Robin in animation and the trapped in time Robin is not really outside the typical variation.

----------


## Aahz

Red Hood and the Outlaws made it back into the Top100

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12...november-2017/

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I guess that means that Harley has more pull than any of the Detective Stooges.

----------


## Aahz

> I guess that means that Harley has more pull than any of the Detective Stooges.


I think it is more likely that the reason is less event comics and some newer books dropping in sales.

----------


## Assam

> I guess that means that Harley has more pull than any of the Detective Stooges.


Harley has more pull than the vast majority of comic characters, including Jason. But sure, use this as an excuse to insult some characters you don't like. _eyeroll_




> I think it is more likely that the reason is less event comics and some newer books dropping in sales.


Probably, yeah.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

By the way, Gandini confirmed she and Soy are back on art duties with issue 20

----------


## Aahz

> Harley has more pull than the vast majority of comic characters, including Jason. But sure, use this as an excuse to insult some characters you don't like. _eyeroll_
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, yeah.


The issue sold actually 70 issues less than the last, so no sales boost because of Harley.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ugh You know what, the confusion about robins identity from that movie seems to be widespread, even the wiki doesnt know. I tried looking for where I saw the creator mention that it was Dick Robin and now I can't find it. :/ Oh bother
> 
> Please excuse my previous explanation Kiwi, although there is no confirmation that the Robin featured in the film JLAA trapped in time is Jason, despite what I mentioned, I cannot find proof that it is *Dick either. At the very least it seems the creators wanted to leave it open to interpretation, which I kinda hate since its a bit of a cop out and plays to the 'they are all basically clones right?' line of thinking about the characters. :/
> 
> *Honestly though I'm baffled, I could have SWORN that the director mentioned offhandedly that it was Dick. Mainly because I had been following him at the time and remember feeling a tad disappointed to read that, since the robin in the film very much sounded like Jason plus it would have been nice to have a Jason Robin film feature that didn't include him either being dead or having his skull bashed in eventually.


From experience I haven`t found anything related to the movie that tells which Robin it is. Most likely an algamation as is standard practise but way I see it the predominary characteristics of the character are mainly Jay.

----------


## Caivu

> I guess that means that Harley has more pull than any of the Detective Stooges.


Hey. Not cool.

----------


## Caivu

Jason's going to be back in 'Tec soon, probably for Batwoman's trial:

Screenshot_20171218-142517.jpg

Art by Alvaro Martínez.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason's going to be back in 'Tec soon, probably for Batwoman's trial:
> 
> Screenshot_20171218-142517.jpg
> 
> Art by Alvaro Martínez.


Lovely art, and interesting to see his presence there. 

I wonder if its just you know, 'batfam formality' in the fact that he is a member and so shows up just to appear in the background. Standard stuff. OR if the TEC/rhato crossover is going to used here to color Jasons perception of Batwoman and see her as 'too unruly', considering she arrested him without consulting Batman. Upping the drama by adding more to her supposed 'guilt'. I'm doubtful of that happening, but it would be kinda neat to see continuities actually being acknowledged across the books once in a while. OR another nice thing would be to get a moment between Kate and Jason to familiarize themselves, foreshadow their allegiance in the future. I'm overthinking, I know. Pretty art either way  :Big Grin:

----------


## Caivu

> Lovely art, and interesting to see his presence there. 
> 
> I wonder if its just you know, 'batfam formality' in the fact that he is a member and so shows up just to appear in the background. Standard stuff. OR if the TEC/rhato crossover is going to used here to color Jasons perception of Batwoman and see her as 'too unruly', considering she arrested him without consulting Batman. Upping the drama by adding more to her supposed 'guilt'. I'm doubtful of that happening, but it would be kinda neat to see continuities actually being acknowledged across the books once in a while. OR another nice thing would be to get a moment between Kate and Jason to familiarize themselves, foreshadow their allegiance in the future. I'm overthinking, I know. Pretty art either way


I'm kinda hoping _someone_ addresses what happened in RHatO, because it was just left in the air and doesn't make much sense on the whole.

I can see him ultimately siding with her on the issue of killing, though.

----------


## TheCape

> https://twitter.com/Vorimar_Lee


This is amazing  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

I joked about the possibility of a full-on trial, Tim on defense, Cass prosecuting, Bruce as judge, but I just thought of the rest of them as the jury. The idea of them 'taking the stand' is delightfully hilarious.

----------


## RedBird

> I joked about the possibility of a full-on trial, Tim on defense, Cass prosecuting, Bruce as judge, but I just thought of the rest of them as the jury. The idea of them 'taking the stand' is delightfully hilarious.


Bruce: "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God"

Jason: "Nope"

Bruce: *SIGH

----------


## Frontier

I'm not looking forward to more characters in 'Tec for the trial, but I guess Jason will at least probably get a few good lines  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aahz

> I wonder if its just you know, 'batfam formality' in the fact that he is a member and so shows up just to appear in the background. Standard stuff. OR if the TEC/rhato crossover is going to used here to color Jasons perception of Batwoman and see her as 'too unruly', considering she arrested him without consulting Batman.


I doubt that he will have a major role in the story, and I also expect that the Batwriters will just ignore what happened in RHatO.

Btw. I think it is really time for RHatO to be part of some kind of cross over event, it could slowly really use something to boost the sales a little bit.

----------


## RedBird

> I doubt that he will have a major role in the story, and I also expect that the Batwriters will just ignore what happened in RHatO.
> 
> Btw. I think it is really time for RHatO to be part of some kind of cross over event, it could slowly really use something to boost the sales a little bit.


Oh for sure, I suspect that too, also its a cameo, I wasn't expecting any huge role.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20

Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.

"Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.



_Amazing_

----------


## Assam

So at the start of 2018, we'll have one book dealing with a superhero dating app and another one dealing with a henchman app. 

Link to solicits?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...70&postcount=1

Relevant



> TITANS #21 
> Written by Dan Abnett, art and cover by Paul Pelletier and Andrew Hennessey, variant cover by Nick Bradshaw. 
> "Titans Apart," part two! Arsenal hits rock bottom when he is betrayed by his closest ally and left for dead, and to make matters worse, his oldest friends, the former Titans, don't seem to trust him anymore. How far will Roy Harper go to discover the truth behind the conspiracy that no one else can see? And will the truth set him free...or will it destroy him? 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on March 14.


Just ditch the Titans and go back to the Outlaws already Roy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS VOL. 3: BIZARRO REBORN TP
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by DEXTER SOY, JOE BENNETT, TYLER KIRKHAM and others • Cover by TYLER KIRKHAM
> Bizarro’s final days are upon us! As Red Hood and the Outlaws rush home to Gotham City in an effort to save Bizarro’s life, a new threat is unleashed in the form of Solomon Grundy! Can the Outlaws stop Grundy’s rampage without their most powerful member? Collects issues #12-18 and ANNUAL #1.
> On sale APRIL 18 • 208 pg, FC, $19.99 US • ISBN: 978-1-4012-7837-3


The third TP is out in March as well, is solicited with the Annual's cover.

----------


## Aioros22

> http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...70&postcount=1
> 
> Relevant
> 
> 
> Just ditch the Titans and go back to the Outlaws already Roy.


Ditto. 

Loedbell`s handling wasn`t perfect but all Abnett is doing is just rehashing the same old, same old with Roy. You gotta a family here marksman.

----------


## Aioros22

> Lovely art, and interesting to see his presence there. 
> 
> I wonder if its just you know, 'batfam formality' in the fact that he is a member and so shows up just to appear in the background. Standard stuff. OR if the TEC/rhato crossover is going to used here to color Jasons perception of Batwoman and see her as 'too unruly', considering she arrested him without consulting Batman. Upping the drama by adding more to her supposed 'guilt'. I'm doubtful of that happening, but it would be kinda neat to see continuities actually being acknowledged across the books once in a while. OR another nice thing would be to get a moment between Kate and Jason to familiarize themselves, foreshadow their allegiance in the future. I'm overthinking, I know. Pretty art either way


I think the general feeling is that his presence steems more from the formality side but give what the storyarc is about and knowing Jason will play a major role with Kate in the Future arc, this will likely be used for set up the allegiance. Actually, since Jason claimed he should have stopped Tim he might even be neutral at this point. At the very least, you know you`ll have more for your Sass collection. Adundance is always key  :Wink: 

Lovely art too. 

Agree about being time to make RATHO central stage in a Batman-wide crossover. With the way everyone is using Jason, you might as well and the team got more than enough of a identity now.

----------


## RedBird

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.


Jasons REALLY pushin those jacket sleeves back :P

Anyways, I'm kinda iffy about this since I was never on board with the whole 'rent a bat' service Lobdell set up in RH/A, so I'm hoping it is just a convention that they are crashing, (in fact I'm getting some Sandman vibes with the whole convention for bad guys thing here), rather than any long term method of catching bad guys.

----------


## TheCape

So the Outlaws are now the "Heroes For Hire" of the DC universe?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...70&postcount=1
> 
> Relevant
> 
> 
> Just ditch the Titans and go back to the Outlaws already Roy.


Also WOW, in all fairness to that supposed 'dig' at Titans from the last rhato issue, I guess it wasn't actually far from the truth and actually justified. 

Huh, wadya know, you can find continuity in separate comics  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> So the Outlaws are now the "Heroes For Hire" of the DC universe?


Ugh please no, I hate that concept so much. ;_;

----------


## TheCape

> Ugh please no, I hate that concept so much. ;_;


No love for "Sweet Christmas"  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> No love for "Sweet Christmas"


Nope. Nothing but coal.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Also WOW, in all fairness to that supposed 'dig' at Titans from the last rhato issue, I guess it wasn't actually far from the truth and actually justified. 
> 
> Huh, wadya know, you can find continuity in separate comics


Right? People were upset with Lobdell about that, but it seems like it wasn't just some random line.

----------


## kiwiliko

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.
> 
> 
> 
> _Amazing_


I had the weirdest thought that this was going to be a DC crossover with Despicable Me and we were getting introduced to it through an issue of Outlaws crashing a convention of yellow squeaky minions.

----------


## RedBird

You know what? I change my mind.

That cover looks like Jason and Arty are excited to be showing off and selling merchandise of Biz. 
They are proud parents and are supporting their son. I'm 100% behind this  :Big Grin:

----------


## kiwiliko

> You know what? I change my mind.
> 
> That cover looks like Jason and Arty are excited to be showing off and selling merchandise of Biz. 
> They are proud parents and are supporting their son. I'm 100% behind this


We know they must've went somewhere to get that custom Red Hood T shirt in Bizarros size way back in the earlier issues too. I can dig seeing the reds run merch for Biz. Honestly superboy probably has to be using the same print service with the amount of shirts he rips through.

----------


## Assam

I'm seeing comparisons to Sandman and Heroes for Hire, but the first thing that came to mind for me when seeing this was the Secret Six's commercial.

----------


## G-Potion

> Right? People were upset with Lobdell about that, but it seems like it wasn't just some random line.


Right. Lobdell often follows continuity very well. People are just eager to have something they can blame him for I guess.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.
> 
> _Amazing_


Am I reading this right? Sounds like a reverse take on the Rent-A-Bat. And a perfect means for Red Hood to both exercise his crime boss act and to get in on criminal plots. _Crazy_!  :EEK!:

----------


## G-Potion

> I had the weirdest thought that this was going to be a DC crossover with Despicable Me and we were getting introduced to it through an issue of Outlaws crashing a convention of yellow squeaky minions.


I swear I saw a fanart of Red Hood with the minions somewhere. Hopefully I did the right thing and shared it here.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> So the Outlaws are now the "Heroes For Hire" of the DC universe?


Used to be. Looks like crime boss (for hire???) now.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Pulling Marketing for the deep pocket!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The way I'm reading the solicit, is about the Outlaws getting wind of the Henchmen app and use it to track down its users to one big gathering, that then they proceed to shut down.

In any case, I'm 90% certain is a one shot meant to give a breathing room between arcs, with the next big arc starting properly on issue 21.

----------


## RedBird

[x] Cute Card  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

[x] _You know Jason had to do it to them_

----------


## Rise

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.
> 
> 
> 
> _Amazing_


This look like it going to be a really fun issue and I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Cute Card


I have no idea what the white thing is but it's hella cute.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] _You know Jason had to do it to them_


I love this artist. Their Jason is hilarious.

----------


## G-Potion

Adorable batfam.  
http://tuluxi.tumblr.com/post/168747781652

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## CPSparkles

> 


Ohhh this is so very sweet. Come on Jason *Tis the season*

----------


## RedBird

Thats so damn cute, I love Dicks fix for Jasons jacket  :Big Grin:

----------


## CPSparkles

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #20
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art by Dexter Soy, cover by Trevor Hairsine, variant cover by Guillem March.
> 
> "Henched!" Have you been thinking about breaking bad? There's never been a better time help your favorite super-villain take over the world, defeat an archnemesis or rob a bank. Even the bad guys need a little help, and with the Henched app you can find the perfect evil boss for you! Just don't be surprised if Red Hood and the Outlaws show up to your budding henchmen convention and stop your dreams dead in their tracks. 
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on March 14.
> 
> 
> 
> _Amazing_


Okay this IS amazing.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Thats so damn cute, I love Dicks fix for Jasons jacket


Me too and the simile as he walks away. Like Jason's being a bit of a Gouchy Grinch so Dick fixed it with even more love which pisses Jason off worse than ever so he's off to find a way to burn a SnowDick to the ground  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Me too and the simile as he walks away. Like Jason's being a bit of a Gouchy Grinch so Dick fixed it with even more love which pisses Jason off worse than ever so he's off to find a way to burn a SnowDick to the ground



Exactly,  :Big Grin:  I think he also prefers to make his own snowman. [x]

----------


## G-Potion

The amount of "Jason NO" I've seen in fanworks is staggering.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

> Exactly,  I think he also prefers to make his own snowman. [x]


Snow payback. Nice vegetables Jay

----------


## JasonTodd428

> 


So cute. I love it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Soy can plead the fifth but is very obvious he actually ships Jason and Artemis together.

Honestly, I think that Soy becoming a fan of Jason and enjoying the fanbase is the main reason he's stuck with the book so far. It really felt like he was being moved to other book one his initial six issues were up.

----------


## RedBird

> Honestly, I think that Soy becoming a fan of Jason and enjoying the fanbase is the main reason he's stuck with the book so far. It really felt like he was being moved to other book one his initial six issues were up.


I didn't wanna jinx it, but yeah I get that feeling too, and bless him for sticking around if thats the case, cause his work really is amazing. Plus its been fun to see an artist that is passionate about the character, these few artists that do become passionate I then come to associate with said characters. Eg; Marcus To for Tim, Patrick Gleason for Damian.

And now at this point, I feel like Dexter Soy is THE artist for Jason.

----------


## RedBird

[x] Revenge? :P

----------


## G-Potion

> [x] Revenge? :P


All the cool winter themed arts. I'm in love.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## kiwiliko

> The amount of "Jason NO" I've seen in fanworks is staggering.


I imagine a good amount of interactions between the family and Bruce just consists of "Batchild NO"
I also imagine as soon as Jason is told "Jason NO" he probably replies "JASON YES"  :Big Grin:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I didn't wanna jinx it, but yeah I get that feeling too, and bless him for sticking around if thats the case, cause his work really is amazing. Plus its been fun to see an artist that is passionate about the character, these few artists that do become passionate I then come to associate with said characters. Eg; Marcus To for Tim, Patrick Gleason for Damian.
> 
> And now at this point, I feel like Dexter Soy is THE artist for Jason.


Yeah, I actually still worry about that too and I was extremely concerned the first time a guest artist appeared on the book. I still find myself worrying every time Soy takes a break because RHATO has had a real problem in the past with keeping consistent artists. Soy is the best artist the book has had in a very long time so I really don't want the book to lose him.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I imagine a good amount of interactions between the family and Bruce just consists of "Batchild NO"
> I also imagine as soon as Jason is told "Jason NO" he probably replies "JASON YES"


I could definitely see that and he probably replies with a shit eating grin on his face too.

----------


## G-Potion

*Interview with Lobdell yeeee*

https://batman-news.com/2017/12/21/h...ist-criticism/

----------


## G-Potion

This is a Christmas gift. Everything I want from an interview. I loveeeee this man.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

You guys can drop any question at Brian Warshaw. There's a chance he will get it to Lobdell sometime in the future. According to Brian, he has been trying to get the whole team down for interview so I can't wait for Soy and Veronica's turn.

----------


## K Nikk

> Interview with Lobdell yeeee
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/12/21/h...ist-criticism/


That is a wonderful interview!  Good reading even for comic book readers in general.

----------


## G-Potion

> That is a wonderful interview!  Good reading even for comic book readers in general.


True! I love reading Lobdell's interview really, as he is not afraid of saying what he thinks, and he's not shy about disagreeing with anybody. Kudos to the interviewer for asking all the right questions as well.

----------


## K Nikk

> True! I love reading Lobdell's interview really, as he is not afraid of saying what he thinks, and he's not shy about disagreeing with anybody. Kudos to the interviewer for asking all the right questions as well.


I don't think I've read an interview lately where the interviewER ends up also having to answer a question or rather respond with their own defense, to what the interviewEE has answered.  I side more with Lobdell on that.  It's something good to keep in mind - how our expectations can effect whether we are letting something just be what it is.  It's part of the reason I avoid trailers for some movies that I find particularly important for me to enjoy - it's not to avoid being spoiled, it's to avoid being given hints and therefore going into the movie with expectations and in waiting for my expectations to pay off I miss what is actually happening on the screen.  He didn't shy away from that question.  

His discussion about Bizzaro was really wonderful as well. And it was insightful to hear about the pressures or directions that come from inside the organization on what to write/what to not write and how that can actually make a writer angry. But also how he has a say in it too and in what ways he can push back. 

Just overall an EXCELLENT interview.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think I've read an interview lately where the interviewER ends up also having to answer a question or rather respond with their own defense, to what the interviewEE has answered.  I side more with Lobdell on that.  It's something good to keep in mind - how our expectations can effect whether we are letting something just be what it is.  It's part of the reason I avoid trailers for some movies that I find particularly important for me to enjoy - it's not to avoid being spoiled, it's to avoid being given hints and therefore going into the movie with expectations and in waiting for my expectations to pay off I miss what is actually happening on the screen.  He didn't shy away from that question.  
> 
> His discussion about Bizzaro was really wonderful as well. And it was insightful to hear about the pressures or directions that come from inside the organization on what to write/what to not write and how that can actually make a writer angry. But also how he has a say in it too and in what ways he can push back. 
> 
> Just overall an EXCELLENT interview.


Haha yeah it's a good thing though that they are both very pleasant about it. 

The pressure from editorial messing with Lobdell's plans was a huge detriment to the title pre-Rebirth. And I'm glad he tells it how it is here. It saddens me that anti RHATO fans, particularly the N52 title, would find anything to attack Lobdell over, without realizing that he couldn't have done what he had without mandate from higher-ups (they blamed him for putting Roy and Kory in his team for god's sake). Now I'm glad that current editors seem to let him experiment more with Smart Bizarro, and that they allow him to have his say in regards to Jason/Artemis. On the other hand, editorial demanding a darker tone for RHATO is something I approve!




> It's something good to keep in mind - how our expectations can effect whether we are letting something just be what it is.


I agree with this so much!

----------


## K Nikk

> Haha yeah it's a good thing though that they are both very pleasant about it. 
> 
> The pressure from editorial messing with Lobdell's plans was a huge detriment to the title pre-Rebirth. And I'm glad he tells it how it is here. It saddens me that anti RHATO fans, particularly the N52 title, would find anything to attack Lobdell over, without realizing that he couldn't have done what he had without mandate from higher-ups (they blamed him for putting Roy and Kory in his team for god's sake). Now I'm glad that current editors seem to let him experiment more with Smart Bizarro, and that they allow him to have his say in regards to Jason/Artemis. On the other hand, editorial demanding a darker tone for RHATO is something I approve!


It sounds like his newest editor was a breath of fresh air in that regards.  "It sounds like you're really excited about this. Write down some story ideas and let's talk about it." (paraphrase).  Yes!!

----------


## magpieM

> *Interview with Lobdell yeeee*
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/12/21/h...ist-criticism/


Oh I love this interview! A lot of information  :Big Grin: 

1. So actually he was not changing his idea in the last minute to make the 'Black Mask' the Black Mask. In fact he did not plan to use him in the first place. I'm wondering what's his original plan that involves a higher-level enemy. Don't know if he's going to use that plan in the future. But the first volume is still awesome.

2. And it's great to know that he's working well with the new editor! He is open to Lobdell's new idea and they are working together on it. I was also under the impression that Bizarro would return to be 'dumb' in short time. But I'm totally OK if he stays genius longer.

3. 'JaRtemis' 'are fiercely loyal to each other'. Wow my imagination is running wild... And it seems that he hasn't decided to settle their romantic relationship yet, but he still open to that direction.

4. Jason is not another Punisher but he still kills when he really has to. And he'll be more violent and darker. ---> Perfect

----------


## EMarie

1. I did question why Black Mask was used but all things considered I think he handled that well.

2. It's always great when an editor is cool with a writer's excitement in their ideas. It does seem like a surefire status quo beat that can't be changed but I'd love if it was either fluctuating intelligence or Bizarro seems to revert but just problem solves in smart but bizarre ways no one else would think of.

3. It's called Jartemis? Well I did think it was a little fast although the Annual gave me the impression that they both have feelings for each other.

----------


## G-Potion

> 3. It's called Jartemis? Well I did think it was a little fast although the Annual gave me the impression that they both have feelings for each other.


If I read it correctly, Lobdell essentially said as far as he's concerned Jason and Artemis won't be having romantic feelings for the other anytime soon, unless he's fired tomorrow and the next writer wants to do it. And I like what he implies. They are not a natural fit romantically but they can still love and be loyal to each other, in the platonic sense.

----------


## EMarie

I understood that. I mean Artemis spent the Annual teasing Jason by making him think she liked Dick. Once she's alone with Dick he instantly asks her if she's together with Jason. She questions Jason being with anyone and Dick's "out of of his league" remark sounds like something you'd say to comfort someone who's going through heartbreak. The art has them depicted kinda somber.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well he does admit the possibility of Jason and Artemis having feelings for each other but is worded in such a way that it wouldn't be a traditional relationship and certainly not one that would define the characters moving forward.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Lobdell will also be with EVS answering fan questions this Saturday

----------


## RedBird

> 4. Jason is not another Punisher but he still kills when he really has to. And he'll be more violent and darker. ---> Perfect


Exactly. This was a pretty insightful interview throughout but that part really caught my attention, and its something I have been insisting for years as well. That Jason isn't just punisher-lite, killing indiscriminately, its not his only method, but a last resort to dealing with high profile criminals. Though I am looking forward to Lobdells tease for a more violent and darker approach, glad to see that thats what the higher ups also now want for the character and series as well.

Though in the meantime it was nice to see where Lobdells decisions lie with that topic and how he is sometimes restrained, such as when he was describing the Qurac scene, writing that Jason then kills some of the terrorists, only to have the editor be like, 

_ED: 'no dude, he can't he promised Batman'
SL: 'Its a WAR scenario!'
ED: 'still! he pinky promised'_

I'm ad-libing :P but you get my point, I'm just glad to see that Lobdell has a good grasp on Jasons moral compass when it comes to killing, since I admit I was worried he was trying to imply that Jason would now stop killing for good.

----------


## RedBird

careamorran

----------


## G-Potion

> careamorran


Everyone stops at the second basket. The _impatience_. For all they know it could be his last one.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

ghostiestart
Based on [x]

----------


## RedBird



----------


## G-Potion

http://gloomyholiday.tumblr.com/post/168537186429

Jason and damian bonding
(post father-son quarrel)

----------


## Rise

> *Interview with Lobdell yeeee*
> 
> https://batman-news.com/2017/12/21/h...ist-criticism/


Pretty good interview that explained some of the things I complained about like the dumb "I promised broose!!" idea that made no sense to me. So, it was because of the old editors (freaking editors...) and the new ones want a darker approach with Jason now (YES!! Please make him dumb this stupid promise!).

I hope we get more interviews like this in the future.

----------


## RedBird

AWWWWW Bombshells United #18

----------


## RedBird



----------


## G-Potion

> AWWWWW Bombshells United #18


LOL rip UTRH in this verse?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> LOL rip UTRH in this verse?


I guess so, but I'm a sucker for RobinJay/KidJay so I'll let it slide. :P

----------


## G-Potion

Hard to stay angry when you have two moms.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

Also


This sounds ominous but also like, plot armor XD

----------


## kaimaciel

The new interview was cool. I'm glad to see some people willing to accept that RHaTO is a good book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Also
> 
> 
> This sounds ominous but also like, plot armor XD


_"Shall Never Age"_

Yeah, I'm sure that one won't come to bite them in the ass later.

----------


## RedBird

> _"Shall Never Age"_
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure that one won't come to bite them in the ass later.


Oh gosh, now I'm picturing some kind of 'Interview with a Vampire scenario' The gay parents, the immortal child. Its adding up :P

Seriously though I wonder where that 'new rule' is meant to be taking this sub plot.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Oh gosh, now I'm picturing some kind of 'Interview with a Vampire scenario' The gay parents, the immortal child. Its adding up :P
> 
> Seriously though I wonder where that 'new rule' is meant to be taking this sub plot.


Probably to a "Pet Sematary" scenario, it came back wrong, humans shouldn't play god; that kind of thing.

----------


## RedBird

> Probably to a "Pet Sematary" scenario, it came back wrong, humans shouldn't play god; that kind of thing.


Gosh dang it. Knowing Jasons luck in 'being happy' thats probably the case. :/

----------


## G-Potion

Dang. Also rip happy Jason. It was short lived.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> The new interview was cool. I'm glad to see some people willing to accept that RHaTO is a good book.


Not only that, I think at least a few more people have grown to like the man himself after this interview. _Amazing_.

----------


## Aioros22

> 


Bombshells right in time for the Christmas. 

This will likely follow suit in development that may not end as well but for now kid Jason is having the happiest time and he`s back as predicted!

Merry Hollidays to we all.

----------


## G-Potion

Nabbed from Damian thread.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I swear I'll get my komusou Jason done by Christmas. Happy Holidays you all!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

And of course, there had to be already fanart about it  :Smile: 

https://littlebluejaydraws.tumblr.com/


And for a warming Batman moment tis Season..



Gotta love Clark`s "keep going". I don`t see him often but this is the Superman sort of moment I love and the one we should have seen in film WB!

----------


## Aioros22

Not sure if it`s been posted but Marcus To


http://zzztab.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> Lobdell will also be with EVS answering fan questions this Saturday


Any of you guys watching this live? I'll sadly be at work by then.  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

Lotsa errands to run today but I`ll see it at the end of the day xD

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Gotta love Clark`s "keep going". I don`t see him often but this is the Superman sort of moment I love and the one we should have seen in film WB!


You didn't put attention to the films then, because those moments happen on both MOS and BVS. JL had them as well but those are so heavy handed and on the nose that come across like a parody.

----------


## Aioros22

Coming across as forced instead of genuine its not going to sound like the Superman I`m interested in. Dodging a throw gast tank that blows up the building behind you, just for effect, is not a Superman I care about. The most emotional I saw this Superman be was after he snapped someone`s neck.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Reminder Lobdell will be doing a Q&A on Ethan Van Sciver's YT channel today

https://twitter.com/EthanVanSciver/s...43592035323904

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is live!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UoFCv28Zy8

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Henchmen needed. US style - CCCP style

----------


## G-Potion

> Henchmen needed. US style - CCCP style


Haha these look great! 

(And interview is going great! Has he talked about DC yet? I just got home.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Haha these look great! 
> 
> (And interview is going great! Has he talked about DC yet? I just got home.)


Nope, he has been talking about his time in Marvel and general approach to writing.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeee Red Hood time!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh wow, I didn't expect they would pick my question.

Well, that Outlaws meeting is _still_ happening!

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh wow, I didn't expect they would pick my question.
> 
> Well, that Outlaws meeting is _still_ happening!


Yeeah I saw that! Good question, Dark!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And is over! Not much was talked about Scott's current time with DC but it was pretty enlightening about his time at Marvel and his general approach to writing. Definitely a great point of reference for anyone interested in knowing more of the man behind the book.

However, we did get a juicy snippet of information. That story of the current Outlaws meeting the old gang is still happening!!!

EDIT: Oh I forgot, he also addressed the changes on Tim and Superboy's origin (and by association I assume Jason's also counts), basically it was that he had to write new stories that would fit within the new context brought by the N52 since the old ones wouldn't fit within that same context due all the changed or missing elements.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And DC chose sketch 1! #RedHood and the #Outlaws #variant #cover. #Jasontodd #Bizarro #Artemis #DCcomics #Henchmen of the #World #United #Unclesam

I must say, that was my least favorite sketch.

Oh well.

----------


## G-Potion

Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Link since it's very big: [X]

----------


## G-Potion

> And DC chose sketch 1! #RedHood and the #Outlaws #variant #cover. #Jasontodd #Bizarro #Artemis #DCcomics #Henchmen of the #World #United #Unclesam
> 
> I must say, that was my least favorite sketch.
> 
> Oh well.


Dang, like it the least as well.

----------


## Caivu

Dan Mora art from... something.

Screenshot_20171224-113430.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion.


Beautiful Job!




> Dan Mora art from... something.
> 
> Attachment 59886


He's only making variant covers for DC right now, isn't he? So maybe is a tease for an upcoming variant fro Titans. 

Now Jason on Titans is something I'm very intrigued about.

By the way, here's the source of the pic

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdGDQlyD...-by=dan_mora_c

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdF_Apzj...-by=dan_mora_c

----------


## G-Potion

> Beautiful Job!


Thanks, Dark!  :Embarrassment: 






> He's only making variant covers for DC right now, isn't he? So maybe is a tease for an upcoming variant fro Titans. 
> 
> Now Jason on Titans is something I'm very intrigued about.


I will be very invested if it's Titans. Jason gets out of his own book also another thing worth cheering about. Also happy if it's just a cover. I was worried it's another Nightwing/Red Hood fight.

----------


## EMarie

Do you think it has something to do with Roy? Croc told Jason that Roy is struggling with trying to resist drinking and one of the upcoming solicits has Roy falling off the wagon hard.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Do you think it has something to do with Roy? Croc told Jason that Roy is struggling with trying to resist drinking and one of the upcoming solicits has Roy falling off the wagon hard.


That possibility is the only reason my interest has been piqued.

----------


## G-Potion

> Do you think it has something to do with Roy? Croc told Jason that Roy is struggling with trying to resist drinking and one of the upcoming solicits has Roy falling off the wagon hard.


Wait the solicits said Roy falling off the wagon again?

----------


## AJpyro

The Roy mention has peaked my interests. Does Titans get so bad Jay and co cross books to check on him?

----------


## G-Potion

> The Roy mention has peaked my interests. Does Titans get so bad Jay and co cross books to check on him?


LOL that's the best reason for crossover if I've ever seen one.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Wait the solicits said Roy falling off the wagon again?


Here you go




> TITANS #21 
> Written by Dan Abnett, art and cover by Paul Pelletier and Andrew Hennessey, variant cover by Nick Bradshaw. 
> "Titans Apart," part two! Arsenal hits rock bottom when he is betrayed by his closest ally and left for dead, and to make matters worse, his oldest friends, the former Titans, don't seem to trust him anymore. How far will Roy Harper go to discover the truth behind the conspiracy that no one else can see? And will the truth set him free...or will it destroy him? 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on March 14.

----------


## EMarie

I'm hoping "closet ally" isn't Jason. It doesn't seem to be the Titans as their mentioned next. Ollie maybe?

----------


## G-Potion

> Here you go


Aaah I didn't look at the cover last time so I missed the reference to his addiction. And wow, there's a syringe in there too. Did they change the nature of his addiction back again?

----------


## Assam

> I'm hoping "closet ally" isn't Jason. It doesn't seem to be the Titans as their mentioned next. Ollie maybe?


Obviously it's Hal Jordan or Duke Thomas.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm hoping "closet ally" isn't Jason. It doesn't seem to be the Titans as their mentioned next. Ollie maybe?


Going by the previous month's solicits I assume is Cheshire.

----------


## EMarie

I know their supposed to hang out but I didn't think he trusted her in the GA issues I read. Well solicits are weird sometimes.

G-Potion: Green Arrow mentioned Roy having a drinking problem before he even met Ollie. I think he also has a drug problem.

----------


## Frontier

> I know their supposed to hang out but I didn't think he trusted her in the GA issues I read. Well solicits are weird sometimes.
> 
> G-Potion: Green Arrow mentioned Roy having a drinking problem before he even met Ollie. I think he also has a drug problem.


Percy's take on Roy, if I recall correctly, established he had a drinking problem since he was throwing parties at Ollie's place and was obviously drunk. 

The drugs came after Oliver kicked him out.

----------


## EMarie

I remember his adoptive dad dying, shot with an arrow, and his son blaming Roy who was too drunk to remember what happened.

----------


## Aioros22

> Percy's take on Roy, if I recall correctly, established he had a drinking problem since he was throwing parties at Ollie's place and was obviously drunk. 
> 
> The drugs came after Oliver kicked him out.


Wait, did they set up Roy`s drug issue into his backstory again on top of having to recover from alcohol addiction? 

He sure went to the better title  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Really displeased with the blandness of Titans handling on Roy. They were supposed to pick the ball running and improve the character towards better writting but the nostalgia factor kicks too hard and convultes things again. I am interested in those solicits over the prospect of Jason showing up.

----------


## Aioros22

> And DC chose sketch 1! #RedHood and the #Outlaws #variant #cover. #Jasontodd #Bizarro #Artemis #DCcomics #Henchmen of the #World #United #Unclesam
> 
> I must say, that was my least favorite sketch.
> 
> Oh well.


I sorta knew they would pick this one. Is the iconic "I choose you Pikachu" poster design  :Wink: 

By the way, those are movie henchemen/Villains. 

@t G it`s beautiful!! More than your linework what I like best is the mood you set your pieces with. Bravo!

@t Dark: So the Outlaws are still going to crossover up (maybe the Titans solicit are part of the grand plan but I wouldn`t bet on it yet) and the New52 new origins were mandated. The last one isn`t a surprise but I like that Lodbell set it in a way you could actually fit with the iconic origin. Still, I rather have the iconic flat on.

----------


## Frontier

> Wait, did they set up Roy`s drug issue into his backstory again on top of having to recover from alcohol addiction? 
> 
> He sure went to the better title


They also emphasized that he was pretty much over those issues in the present-day.

I think between _Green Arrow_ and _Titans_ Roy has been pretty solid. 



> Really displeased with the blandness of Titans handling on Roy. They were supposed to pick the ball running and improve the character towards better writting but the nostalgia factor kicks too hard and convultes things again. I am interested in those solicits over the prospect of Jason showing up.


Honestly, Roy is probably the best characterized and consistent of all the Titans in that book (which isn't saying much, but still).

----------


## Assam

> They also emphasized that he was pretty much over those issues in the present-day.
> 
> I think between _Green Arrow_ and _Titans_ Roy has been pretty solid. 
> 
> Honestly, Roy is probably the best characterized and consistent of all the Titans in that book (which isn't saying much, but still).


All true. 

Not sure how true this is going to be after the _next_ arc, but I'm remaining hopeful and putting my trust in Abnett.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Now Jason on Titans is something I'm very intrigued about.


I'd be far more intrigued about the idea if I hadn't already experienced the blandness that is Abnett's Titans and if the last crossover Titans was a part of hadn't been so bad. Also to be perfectly honest I don't trust him to handle Jason well. I think that if this does happen I'll be sitting it out mostly because I've already been burned enough.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion. 
> 
> Link since it's very big: [X]


That looks great, G.

----------


## G-Potion

Dexter Soy: Merry Christmas! - Jason/Artemis/Bizarro

----------


## kiwiliko

> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion. 
> 
> Link since it's very big: [X]


Ahhhhhhhh dang look at those lillies and leaf pads @G it looks just gorgeous. I'm loving the pose and the background, the flowers especially look like a great style if you ever wanted to give enamel pins a try one day.

----------


## AJpyro

> Dexter Soy: Merry Christmas! - Jason/Artemis/Bizarro


One love!!

----------


## G-Potion

More basket head!

wheremylowrie.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

Some Christmas Jay!

http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/168918748882



http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## RedBird

> And is over! Not much was talked about Scott's current time with DC but it was pretty enlightening about his time at Marvel and his general approach to writing. Definitely a great point of reference for anyone interested in knowing more of the man behind the book.
> 
> However, we did get a juicy snippet of information. That story of the current Outlaws meeting the old gang is still happening!!!


OOOh sweet! Thanks for the info, and good question!





> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion.
> 
> Link since it's very big: [X]


NICE!! I'm loving the pose, actually feels quite JJBA which is absolutely perfect considering the creators of this film.  :Big Grin:  Oh and I must say you have quite the eye for colour, even along the high contrasting darks (deep reds and blacks) your palette is super pleasing, the combined tones of pinks and greens are lovely! Also is Jason playing the flute here?





> I'd be far more intrigued about the idea if I hadn't already experienced the blandness that is Abnett's Titans and if the last crossover Titans was a part of hadn't been so bad. Also to be perfectly honest I don't trust him to handle Jason well. I think that if this does happen I'll be sitting it out mostly because I've already been burned enough.


Yeah I'm kinda wary about that too. See now, character wise, Jason would and should help Roy if he saw him in that sorry state. HOWEVER, this is a Titans book, its their friendship that matters as far as the title and writer is concerned, but the friendship is also at a moment of high tension. Unless Roy is dropping out of the group, there's no need to further highlight how separated he is from the team and display Jason in any good light, lest he look like the better alternative as a friend, you know? As much as it would be in character for Jason to help Roy in his time of need, as far as the Titans book is concerned that might just undermine the friendship between Roy and the Titans, SO...Yeah. I'm concerned. I have a few predictions, either 

Good ending: Abnett will use Jason as a voice of reason for Roy, maybe even make a small 'callout' to the Titans for their neglect, so basically an outside voice and the helplessness from Roy gets them to get their sh!t together.

Bad Ending: Jason will be the 'friend of the dark side' in that Abnett will use Jason as a 'bad influence' for Roy (ruining the integrity and point of the ending in RH/A) and he may even use this as a way of cutting Jasons ties to Roy forever as Roy decides he IS better off without Jason, or is betrayed by him in some way, etc.

Neutral Ending: Its a dark trinity and titans crossover?

True Ending: Its a commission/fanart :P




> Dexter Soy: Merry Christmas! - Jason/Artemis/Bizarro


Dexter Soy is a blessing to this fandom




> More basket head!


Yay even more Reed Hood, the art still hasn't stopped. Amazing




> Some Christmas Jay!


Santa Hood! and aww lil Jay is so cute.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Some Christmas Jay!
> 
> http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/168918748882
> 
> 
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/


LMAO. I love it. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G it`s beautiful!! More than your linework what I like best is the mood you set your pieces with. Bravo!


Thanks!! I'm happy that's what you like best! Setting and mood are always the first thing on my mind when I decide what to draw. Probably why I just can't do characters on blank background even though I love to look at them.




> That looks great, G.


Thank you!  :Embarrassment: 




> Ahhhhhhhh dang look at those lillies and leaf pads @G it looks just gorgeous. I'm loving the pose and the background, the flowers especially look like a great style if you ever wanted to give enamel pins a try one day.


Thanks kiwiii! I have never drawn that many flowers in my life but I just needed to do it because I wanted to have some Buddhist symbolism in it, hence the lotus flowers. Fun fact, I thought I was taking liberty with the crystal prayer beads because I liked how they looked among the flowers; turned out they are actually a thing, like whaa, I've only ever seen the monks wear wooden prayer beads where I live. As for doing pins, I already know for sure that I'll make the exact same mistake you did with the teapot!  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> NICE!! I'm loving the pose, actually feels quite JJBA which is absolutely perfect considering the creators of this film.  Oh and I must say you have quite the eye for colour, even along the high contrasting darks (deep reds and blacks) your palette is super pleasing, the combined tones of pinks and greens are lovely! Also is Jason playing the flute here?


Thanks Red!! To my shame, I actually haven't watched JJBA. But I can see what you mean now! I guess it's the dramatic gesture that does it. And yes, he is playing the flute here. Your question just reminded me that I do have a... plot twist of sort... to this. Let me get it up here in a bit.

----------


## G-Potion

> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion. 
> 
> Link since it's very big: [X]


Plot twist, because you are not _that_ cool, Jason.

----------


## Rise

> 


They all pretty good (tho, it's not surprising that DC choose the first one considering how controversial the middle one is going to be).

And interesting news about old/new outlaws meet up is still happening.

----------


## Aioros22

Friendly reminder of how exXxtra Jason Todd is

----------


## Aioros22

http://eh7150.tumblr.com/
Batman Ninja / ニンジャバットマン

----------


## G-Potion

> http://eh7150.tumblr.com/
> Batman Ninja / ニンジャバットマン


Is it me or Jason looks like he's about to trip over?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

For what is worth, we know that Jason exist(ed?) on the NW:New Order Universe.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> For what is worth, we know that Jason exist(ed?) on the NW:New Order Universe.


Where was he mentioned?

----------


## Aioros22

Robin suit in the cave next to Dick`s. You can spot "Todd" at the right corner.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Merry Christmas guys!! It's already the 25th here and I have a gift basket ready for the occasion. 
> 
> Link since it's very big: [X]


Sorry, I'm late, but I also had to congratulate on the drawing. It's beautiful! It's nice to see Jay find some peace.

----------


## RedBird

> http://eh7150.tumblr.com/
> Batman Ninja / ニンジャバットマン


Awww they're all so adorable  :Smile: 

That Reed Hood works well in chibi form

----------


## RedBird

Arkham Knight vs Batman by Ardian Syaf

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk
Batman fan art - _Classic Korean_ art style

----------


## G-Potion

> jjmk-jjmk
> Batman fan art - _Classic Korean_ art style


Oooh those look awesome!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Sorry, I'm late, but I also had to congratulate on the drawing. It's beautiful! It's nice to see Jay find some peace.


Thank youuu!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> jjmk-jjmk
> Batman fan art - _Classic Korean_ art style


Nice. Thanks for sharing them, RedBird.

----------


## wvchemteach

> jjmk-jjmk
> Batman fan art - _Classic Korean_ art style


Looks incredible!!!!

----------


## Aioros22

https://ankalimes-trash.tumblr.com/



Make Artemis taller again Soy

----------


## Aioros22

I assume no women were harmed by the making of this joke disclaimer

----------


## G-Potion

> https://ankalimes-trash.tumblr.com/
> 
> Make Artemis taller again Soy


This so much. I hope the height question will be asked when it's his turn to get interviewed.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I mean, according to the latest data book Artemis and Jason are the same height. 1.83 m.

----------


## Aahz

> Make Artemis taller again Soy


I'm more a supporter of drawing Jason tall, technically he is the tallest and heaviest of the Robins, but he is never really drawn likes that.

----------


## EMarie

> I mean, according to the latest data book Artemis and Jason are the same height. 1.83 m.


Yeah I'm pretty sure their the same height and Artemis is only taller in costume because of the heels in her boots. Kori should have been taller than Jason by a few inches and Dick should be shorter than Jason.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah I'm pretty sure their the same height and Artemis is only taller in costume because of the heels in her boots. Kori should have been taller than Jason by a few inches and Dick should be shorter than Jason.


Pretty much this.

I like Artemis being taller thanks to the costume, but outside of it I'm fine with their canon heights of like 6ft.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm more a supporter of drawing Jason tall, technically he is the tallest and heaviest of the Robins, but he is never really drawn likes that.


Being shorter than Artemis shouldn`t be = shorter Robin. She should tower over the others as well. 

I get that in the latest data book they`re around the same height but even if the gap is small I would still like her to edge him out without heels, it`s a pleasant aesthetic. I don`t hate the current depiction, I just find the former funnier but on the sidetrack we already had a Kory/Dick or Barda/Scott like that so maybe that`s what they`re avoiding even if the two cases are virtually the main stand outs in a sea of conformaty to classic idealistic art. 

On the same note, I wouldn`t mind Diana being taller than most male heroes either.

----------


## RedBird

Gosh Bombshell Jason is so cute, and the family between him Kate and Renee is adorable, seriously their adoration at having their son back is warming my cold cold heart.
I'm just loathing waiting for the other shoe to drop here. 
(For context, they have been underground in the pits for a week now and seem content to remain there forever now that Jasons back and safe)

----------


## RedBird

Three things

1. I am skipping a few pages, there is even more content if you're curious enough to check it out.

2. (I think) It seems that Jason has forgiven cheetah, if this secret plate is anything to go by, even if his parents are still pretty damn pissed, resurrection or not. 

3. Seriously Bombshell Kates happiness is breaking my heart.

----------


## Aioros22

Kid Jason reading, playing guitar and baseball  :Wink:  :Wink:

----------


## JasonTodd428

I _have_ to get caught up on Bombshells. I need my Kid Jason fix. This looks great although I do have to say that I am expecting the other shoe to drop at some point. Such sweet moments here.

----------


## RedBird

InkyDandy

----------


## G-Potion

> Gosh Bombshell Jason is so cute, and the family between him Kate and Renee is adorable, seriously their adoration at having their son back is warming my cold cold heart.
> I'm just loathing waiting for the other shoe to drop here. 
> (For context, they have been underground in the pits for a week now and seem content to remain there forever now that Jasons back and safe)


Whaa. Freely expressed happiness. What a refreshing take, and is something unique enough that Batman wouldn't be able to copy. Definitely getting these recent issues.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> InkyDandy


Keep coming, keep coming!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aahz

> I _have_ to get caught up on Bombshells. I need my Kid Jason fix. This looks great although I do have to say that I am expecting the other shoe to drop at some point. Such sweet moments here.


I'm not really interested Bombshells, but damn why can't we have kid Jason back in the main continuity?

----------


## RedBird

> I'm not really interested Bombshells, but damn why can't we have kid Jason back in the main continuity?


I'm with you there. In whatever context you mean whether its having Jason back to his original more younger age in his intro, or having more kid and/or robin jay moments within the comics, preferably both, I'm THERE.

----------


## RedBird

Jason Toddler from Tiny Titans

----------


## shadowsgirl

https://cassperclearie.deviantart.co...ason-358128493

----------


## SpentShrimp

"He never revenge for you."

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/ivbenjaminart/

----------


## G-Potion

More of that Classic Korean art style from JJMK

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aahz

I just realized that Jay Garrick's has the the same first names as Jason, since his full name is "Jason Peter Garrick".

----------


## Caivu

By Nick Robles:

IMG_20171231_201959.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> By Nick Robles:


Love his soft expression! (and the white streak)

----------


## Talon1load

Since I’m not willing to go back through all 658 pages, has anyone talked about how now that there are 3 Jokers, DC could actually let Jason kill the one who killed him and set him up as the antihero who kills the bad guys?  I know it didn’t make any sense before since they would never let him kill a major villain, especially the Joker but now that there are 3of them he could finally have his revenge. Maybe he’s past all of that but I think it would be a good story.

----------


## RedBird

> Since I’m not willing to go back through all 658 pages, has anyone talked about how now that there are 3 Jokers, DC could actually let Jason kill the one who killed him and set him up as the antihero who kills the bad guys?  I know it didn’t make any sense before since they would never let him kill a major villain, especially the Joker but now that there are 3of them he could finally have his revenge. Maybe he’s past all of that but I think it would be a good story.


Honestly I agree, it could be a great cathartic moment for Jasons character. Granted the 'in universe' reason for Jason not killing joker seems to stem more from a desire to see Batman kill the joker for him. Or at least considering what occurred in UTRH, the fact that Jason does kill, and the meta OBVIOUS reasons Joker cannot be killed, this is the interpretation I go with. That Jason basically is 'leaving the possibility out there' and is using the jokers life as his last shred of hope that Batman will end it, to both enact revenge for Jason and also as a statement to value family over 'the mission'. Now honestly, I'm not even 100% sure if the Jokers all had separate crimes to begin with, OR if they all committed the same heinous acts in different universes or whatever. Jason killing HIS or one of the jokers regardless, feels like it may diminish the reasoning for not killing him in the first place as I described.

Not that we honestly have to worry about this happening at all. I don't think DC writers tend to hold much value for Jason or his development much anyway. This Joker thing sounds BIG, and Jason won't be making it into any major story like that, but I guess the hypothetical is interesting. I can't decide if he should kill the Joker or not. On the one aspect, theres the beautiful sweet revenge plus the bonus of achieving and succeeding something so ingrained against Batmans character and the mythos, further reinstating Jasons place as a somewhat black sheep and anti hero. However I'm also not sure if I want him to, or if he would ever willingly sever the last tie between him and his hope in Bruce. The fallout would either feel empty or catastrophic.

----------


## RedBird

lemon_mango1
Another _different_ Style

----------


## G-Potion

Still more. I'm thrilled at the fact that we've been seeing more of the batboys in Asian costumes. Hopefully I'll get my own rendition done for Lunar New Year.  :Embarrassment: 
https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

----------


## dietrich

Happy New Year Red Hood fans

----------


## RedBird

> Happy New Year Red Hood fans


Oooh nice, Inkydandy always has something good  :Smile: 

Also, Happy New Year!

----------


## RedBird

[x]




SIGH a man can dream Alfred.

----------


## RedBird

[x]

BatBird Ninja


Sad Batbirds

----------


## RedBird

> Still more. I'm thrilled at the fact that we've been seeing more of the batboys in Asian costumes. Hopefully I'll get my own rendition done for Lunar New Year.


Same here! I feel like a floodgate has opened for artists who excel in or are otherwise interested in a more Asian influenced designs. Been seeing some wonderful work lately, and I also look forward to any more art that _you_ bless us with here G.


[x]


[x]


[x]


Some cutesy stuff but its in the spirit of the New Year, so what the hey

----------


## EMarie

> Honestly I agree, it could be a great cathartic moment for Jasons character. Granted the 'in universe' reason for Jason not killing joker seems to stem more from a desire to see Batman kill the joker for him. Or at least considering what occurred in UTRH, the fact that Jason does kill, and the meta OBVIOUS reasons Joker cannot be killed, this is the interpretation I go with. That Jason basically is 'leaving the possibility out there' and is using the jokers life as his last shred of hope that Batman will end it, to both enact revenge for Jason and also as a statement to value family over 'the mission'. Now honestly, I'm not even 100% sure if the Jokers all had separate crimes to begin with, OR if they all committed the same heinous acts in different universes or whatever. Jason killing HIS or one of the jokers regardless, feels like it may diminish the reasoning for not killing him in the first place as I described.


That was the reason Winick gave but I always read it as Jason knowing he couldn't do it. In Lost Days he had the chance to do it and his PTSD triggers. Jason uses this set back to make it more meaningful by confronting Bruce and trying to get him to chose.

I agree that all this hasn't occurred to the other writers. Since it hasn't been mentioned on panel I assumed Bruce hasn't informed Jason about this because he knows Jason wouldn't react well to it. At the same time that would put Jason and everyone in general in danger since no one knows about the increased danger.

----------


## G-Potion

> Since it hasn't been mentioned on panel I assumed Bruce hasn't informed Jason about this because he knows Jason wouldn't react well to it. At the same time that would put Jason and everyone in general in danger since no one knows about the increased danger.


Bruce keeping secrets that land family in danger? Just the usual Tuesday then.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Heads up but the latest Injustice is subtly hinting towards the boys and Jason in particular. Tim is dead and Bruce goes to Wildcat who`s in the hospital in a coma and claims he "can`t lose another one" while *spoilers:*
 pulling the plug on Ted, supposely to kick in his "Nine Lives" somehow
*end of spoilers* 

The interesting bit is that he mentions everyone he lost in that sequence in one way or another, everyone....*but* Jason (Alfred not included since he`s not "new generation" and he`s back at his side anyhow). As we know, "Batman" was the one who took Grant out. So the question is, is Bruce doing it to bring Tim back or does he *spoilers:*
 already suspects who the other Batman is and needs Grant back to confirm his suspicions
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

For anyone interested, looks like someone is working on a 3D model extract/port for Jason
The model isnt available as of yet, the images are taken from a separate blog who was privy to access it.
Model: DrDabblur - warning: very NSFW blog.







Cool model though, looks like a slight reconstruction of the Robin Jason model from Arkham Knight atop Injustice Jays body.

----------


## Aioros22

Lurve it! Fitting how even the face resembles Soy so since he was the artist of Genesis.

----------


## Assam

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSjVpjXVwAAojVm.jpg

Jason confirmed to be Dr. Cox from Scrubs.

----------


## RedBird

> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSjVpjXVwAAojVm.jpg
> 
> Jason confirmed to be Dr. Cox from Scrubs.


Ha, nice. Dr Cox was always my fave. And this dialogue is kinda interesting, I'm liking the style here. We'll see if the 'self awareness' gets grating or not later down the track, I myself am not amused by writers taking digs at their fans through the pages, but it COULD work here, at least in the beginning.

----------


## Assam

> Ha, nice. Dr Cox was always my fave. And this dialogue is kinda interesting, I'm liking the style here. We'll see if the 'self awareness' gets grating or not later down the track, I myself am not amused by writers taking digs at their fans through the pages, but it COULD work here, at least in the beginning.


Said this on Duke's thread, but I'm in the same boat. I usually hate it when writers make digs at fans (especially when mean spirited and/or nonsensical) but I'm liking it here. So far at least.

----------


## G-Potion

> For anyone interested, looks like someone is working on a 3D model extract/port for Jason
> The model isnt available as of yet, the images are taken from a separate blog who was privy to access it.
> Model: DrDabblur - warning: very NSFW blog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool model though, looks like a slight reconstruction of the Robin Jason model from Arkham Knight atop Injustice Jays body.


Damnnn even his tiny smirk is perfect. This makes me thirst for an unmasked Red Hood in Injustice. Awesome find, Red!  :Embarrassment:

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## G-Potion

> Heads up but the latest Injustice is subtly hinting towards the boys and Jason in particular. Tim is dead and Bruce goes to Wildcat who`s in the hospital in a coma and claims he "can`t lose another one" while *spoilers:*
>  pulling the plug on Ted, supposely to kick in his "Nine Lives" somehow
> *end of spoilers* 
> 
> The interesting bit is that he mentions everyone he lost in that sequence in one way or another, everyone....*but* Jason (Alfred not included since he`s not "new generation" and he`s back at his side anyhow). As we know, "Batman" was the one who took Grant out. So the question is, is Bruce doing it to bring Tim back or does he *spoilers:*
>  already suspects who the other Batman is and needs Grant back to confirm his suspicions
> *end of spoilers*


Interesting. Time to jump back into Injsutice. How did Tim die anyway?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Speaking of Tim, I see his future self is taking on Jason's footsteps

----------


## Assam

> Interesting. Time to jump back into Injsutice. How did Tim die anyway?


Shot through the chest by Zod.

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of Tim, I see his future self is taking on Jason's footsteps


Well, he has a habit of doing that.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## G-Potion

> Shot through the chest by Zod.


Thanks Assam! Did he like, get screen time for one issue and then die?  :EEK!:

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## Assam

> Thanks Assam! Did he like, get screen time for one issue and then die?


More like one or two pages from what I gathered (I don't read Injustice)

----------


## G-Potion

> For anyone interested, looks like someone is working on a 3D model extract/port for Jason
> The model isnt available as of yet, the images are taken from a separate blog who was privy to access it.
> Model: DrDabblur - warning: very NSFW blog.
> 
> Cool model though, looks like a slight reconstruction of the Robin Jason model from Arkham Knight atop Injustice Jays body.


High(er) res on twitter. 
There's a higher one for their patrons. But I don't think they'll appreaciate it being shared.

----------


## G-Potion

> More like one or two pages from what I gathered (I don't read Injustice)


That's harsh.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Thanks Assam! Did he like, get screen time for one issue and then die?


Half an issue to be accurate. Then he gets shot by heat vision as the issue's cliffhanger.

----------


## magpieM

> Speaking of Tim, I see his future self is taking on Jason's footsteps


Tim, also holding dual pistols in the future?! Alright...

----------


## Aioros22

Tim taking from Jason that Pulp tradition of branding twin pistols. 

That said, oy that 90`s reject hurts the eyes. Tought time to be a Tim fan I can tell.

----------


## G-Potion

He already took Red Robin. What is a pair of guns.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

It all started when he took the green pants and now the red eyes. 

Tim is the stalker your parents warned you about.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Tim taking from Jason that Pulp tradition of branding twin pistols. 
> 
> That said, oy that 90`s reject hurts the eyes. Tought time to be a Tim fan I can tell.


I guess everyone's gotta go through that one rebellious phase and do something that makes dad mad. Poor Timmy I've been waiting for him to get a nice costume for a while so more waiting I guess.

----------


## kiwiliko

> High(er) res on twitter. 
> There's a higher one for their patrons. But I don't think they'll appreaciate it being shared.


Ohhhh really looks like he has some of Soy's haircut for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy why is this not on twitterrrr.

006Y1XmOgy1fn50n786r8j318z18cqam.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> Ohhhh really looks like he has some of Soy's haircut for Jason.


I still can't get over how good he looks.

----------


## RedBird

> I still can't get over how good he looks.


I still cant get over Dexter Soy in general. :P

The mans a blessing

Also damn, I love how his Jason portraits become more and more distinguished each time.

----------


## G-Potion

> I still cant get over Dexter Soy in general. :P
> 
> The mans a blessing
> 
> Also damn, I love how his Jason portraits become more and more distinguished each time.


That's true, his Jason looks better and better every time, and younger as well. Also the man blessed us with smiling/winking Jason. Hard to top that.  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> high(er) res on twitter. 
> There's a higher one for their patrons. But i don't think they'll appreaciate it being shared.


cool appearance..

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## G-Potion

> cool appearance..


According to the original poster, they are gonna commission to get the Damian model exported next, so Damian fans can look forward to seeing him unmasked too.

----------


## adrikito

> According to the original poster, they are gonna commission to get the Damian model exported next, so Damian fans can look forward to seeing him unmasked too.


thanks for the information.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Artemis looking fine

----------


## Eto

> Artemis looking fine



How do you know it's her since Giullem didn't mention who it was. But yeah I agree, she looks fine.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> How do you know it's her since Giullem didn't mention who it was. But yeah I agree, she looks fine.


The guy sketched at her side sporting Jason's bat emblem is a dead given, plus, she's dressed in the same dress as the teaser pic uploaded by Takara a while back.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I do miss Jason's old hairstyle from his younger years post Crisis.

----------


## JudasFanny616

> I do miss Jason's old hairstyle from his younger years post Crisis.


Same! I think the same hair styles for the Robins in the latest issues is distracting and unimaginative.

----------


## G-Potion

> Artemis looking fine


It's interesting that Jason is wearing his Red Hood gear and not something appropriate for a date.

----------


## RedBird

lightning strikes art

----------


## Aioros22

Gotham: Gaslight clip featuring Batman and de boys!




Also, latest Bomshells is out and as noted, the side effects on the Pit are starting to show on Jason *spoilers:*
 his eyes glow red like the Minotaur in the labyrint implying whoever gets ressurected may transform into something else, including displaying fits of agressive pattern in conversations 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## JudasFanny616

> Gotham: Gaslight clip featuring Batman and de boys!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, latest Bomshells is out and as noted, the side effects on the Pit are starting to show on Jason *spoilers:*
>  his eyes glow red like the Minotaur in the labyrint implying whoever gets ressurected may transform into something else, including displaying fits of agressive pattern in conversations 
> *end of spoilers*


I'm looking forward to the new animated film. I haven't read the comic, but the animation looks good.

----------


## G-Potion

Someone fixed the Scribblenauts Unmasked scene.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Pika!

----------


## G-Potion

aki4500199.lofter.com
A super cute Easter comics. Jason made batfam eggs and Joker stole/hid all of them.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Someone fixed the Scribblenauts Unmasked scene.


Roy always a bro.

----------


## kiwiliko

> aki4500199.lofter.com
> A super cute Easter comics. Jason made batfam eggs and Joker stole/hid all of them.


Awww wow that's cute. Genius idea for doing short comics though, why take so long to draw a human family of 7+ members when easter eggs are a much funner option :P

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Enchantress' dialogue with Jason, interestingly, she's one of the few to actually call him by his name.

----------


## G-Potion

> Awww wow that's cute. Genius idea for doing short comics though, why take so long to draw a human family of 7+ members when easter eggs are a much funner option :P


Honestly the only time I thought the Joker was cute. Bless this comics!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

You know, reading about franchise characters that could be particular nemesis of someone else rather than Batman got me thinking. It`s no secret I view Roman as part of Jason`s nemesis at this point and true enough, he was created during his original run so it`s all cool but this talk about Harley on the other thread had me wondering whether she would actually be a cooler more engaging nemesis to Jason than almost anyone else in the bat- squad. Not convinced? 

. She`s got unrequietl sexual innuendo with Jason, both in last ish of *RATHO* and in *Injustice2* game dialogue. What more, with psycology writting, you could push this up. How? Just follow the next bulletpoints.  

. In more than one continuity she`s been the shotgun to Jason`s own fate! In both *Arkham Knight* and *Batman Beyond* verses, she`s tortured him (I`m not even going to bother calling that Robin "Tim" at this stage by more than one obvious reason). In Arkham Knight and Genesis she`s showed jealously towards Jason because he became the recipient of Joker`s legacy and love. We already know that in current RATHO Jason has mention teraphy sessions with Harley at Arkham as well. 

In the current *DCU movies* timeline, as per her own criminal record, we know she murdered Robin (named Jason in a studio visit) with the Joker. Just recently in *White Knight* she was the one to initially stop Joker from killing Jason out of a psychotic rage break (another case of jealously, because Robin was closer to Batman than he could ever be..) with his final fate left unknown after she leaves to call Batman to the basement. 

With dark psychology you _could_ push any of the things here almost to a simbolic incest level, which twisted as it may, is a richer narrative than anything else you could think to someone else`s rogue gallery.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That reads just like the Joker's relationship with Jason though.

----------


## Aioros22

With or without the sexual innuendo  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> That reads just like the Joker's relationship with Jason though.


With the added layer of both being victims of the Joker which I think adds so, so much to this dynamic between them.

----------


## G-Potion

> You know, reading about franchise characters that could be particular nemesis of someone else rather than Batman got me thinking. It`s no secret I view Roman as part of Jason`s nemesis at this point and true enough, he was created during his original run so it`s all cool but this talk about Harley on the other thread had me wondering whether she would actually be a cooler more engaging nemesis to Jason than almost anyone else in the bat- squad. Not convinced? 
> 
> . She`s got unrequietl sexual innuendo with Jason, both in last ish of *RATHO* and in *Injustice2* game dialogue. What more, with psycology writting, you could push this up. How? Just follow the next bulletpoints.  
> 
> . In more than one continuity she`s been the shotgun to Jason`s own fate! In both *Arkham Knight* and *Batman Beyond* verses, she`s tortured him (I`m not even going to bother calling that Robin "Tim" at this stage by more than one obvious reason). In Arkham Knight and Genesis she`s showed jealously towards Jason because he became the recipient of Joker`s legacy and love. We already know that in current RATHO Jason has mention teraphy sessions with Harley at Arkham as well. 
> 
> In the current *DCU movies* timeline, as per her own criminal record, we know she murdered Robin (named Jason in a studio visit) with the Joker. Just recently in *White Knight* she was the one to initially stop Joker from killing Jason out of a psychotic rage break (another case of jealously, because Robin was closer to Batman than he could ever be..) with his final fate left unknown after she leaves to call Batman to the basement. 
> 
> With dark psychology you _could_ push any of the things here almost to a simbolic incest level, which twisted as it may, is a richer narrative than anything else you could think to someone else`s rogue gallery.


I don't know what the current Harley is supposed to be anymore but yes, this could work very well in a stand-alone story. I imagine they will have quite a lot of aspects to their dynamic, most interesting to me being the overlapping roles of victim and abuser that Harley plays. I'm disappointed that Harley and Jason never get to talk to the other about how they are now above what the Joker made them to be. What also appeals to me is that their interaction would be starkly different depending on which point they are at in life, when they get to meet.

----------


## Aioros22

She's currently a cocktail mix of Margot and Timm/Dini Queen. A little bit of one in the body of another.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I don't know what the current Harley is supposed to be anymore but yes, this could work very well in a stand-alone story. I imagine they will have quite a lot of aspects to their dynamic, most interesting to me being the overlapping roles of victim and abuser that Harley plays. I'm disappointed that Harley and Jason never get to talk to the other about how they are now above what the Joker made them to be. What also appeals to me is that their interaction would be starkly different depending on which point they are at in life, when they get to meet.


Well put! That's definitely an appealing idea for me too. If it were a darker story I'd be very interested in getting to see that overlap and just how uncomfortable it can get once Harley's more harmful actions aren't being played for laughs and some of the parts of her that were hurt isn't being downplayed either. Removing the influence Joker had on them, it would also be nice to see what happens when the part of Harley that was Dr.Quinzel with her own career and life to lead meets Jason who doesn't let himself lead another life outside his vigilante one.

----------


## Aioros22

Glad to see that in general the idea seems to have merit with you good people  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Color version looks soooo goood!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hmmm

----------


## G-Potion

> Enchantress' dialogue with Jason, interestingly, she's one of the few to actually call him by his name.


My god I'm dumb. That's an UTH reference right there and I completely missed it the first time.

----------


## G-Potion

JJMK!!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> JJMK!!


That made me laugh. Thank you for posting that G.

----------


## Aioros22

https://amicytia.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Well this tripe is way too big to post as I wanted so I may just leave the link. Is it possible to delete my last posts of this page or is admin action required?

----------


## G-Potion

Or, you could do all 12 of 15 images, and I will use this post to do the rest. But you might need to fix the overlapping above with Dick's face.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Daaaang Ikemen Jason, now painted!!
Source: 手办童萌会

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Please be taller than Dick!  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

This deserves a second post just because of Soy's beautiful caption. I'm crying.

----------


## RedBird

> 


Lovely!
And it comes with 3 different heads? How sweet!
Love the white streak and swept back hair

----------


## G-Potion

Baby Jason in a flashback scene from Gotham City Garage.  :Big Grin: 

https://dicktofen.tumblr.com/

----------


## RedBird

> Baby Jason in a flashback scene from Gotham City Garage. 
> 
> https://dicktofen.tumblr.com/


I knew I forgot to mention something!
But yeah, can already see the environment Jason grew up with here. Clearly not the most 'noble' bunch. Although the Alfie cameo was cool too  :Big Grin: 

I wonder how far back this is and when the hell Jason took over the gang, Im both super pleased (cause its so cool) and mildly dissapointed (cause it wont be explored) that this book introduced the concept of Jason being a lifer in a gang and then becoming their feared leader. There must be 50 or 60 year old biker dudes in that group that remember feeding the kid num nums XD

Also sorry I cant post screenshots right now, but there was more of kid Jason in bombshells as well. Though Im still not 100% sure about the mythos in that issue regarding his resurrection. Still a bit confused. But anyways, kid Jason gets some scenes that show bravery and some that show vulnerability which were both nice.

----------


## G-Potion

> I knew I forgot to mention something!
> But yeah, can already see the environment Jason grew up with here. Clearly not the most 'noble' bunch. Although the Alfie cameo was cool too 
> 
> I wonder how far back this is and when the hell Jason took over the gang, Im both super pleased (cause its so cool) and mildly dissapointed (cause it wont be explored) that this book introduced the concept of Jason being a lifer in a gang and then becoming their feared leader. There must be 50 or 60 year old biker dudes in that group that remember feeding the kid num nums XD
> 
> Also sorry I cant post screenshots right now, but there was more of kid Jason in bombshells as well. Though Im still not 100% sure about the mythos in that issue regarding his resurrection. Still a bit confused. But anyways, kid Jason gets some scenes that show bravery and some that show vulnerability which were both nice.


Whaaa he is their leader? I must have missed it in my reading.  :EEK!:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Looking at the completed prototype, yup, I'm keeping the helmet on. The face looks off and not just by the white streak.

----------


## G-Potion

> Also sorry I cant post screenshots right now, but there was more of kid Jason in bombshells as well. Though Im still not 100% sure about the mythos in that issue regarding his resurrection. Still a bit confused. But anyways, kid Jason gets some scenes that show bravery and some that show vulnerability which were both nice.


Finally read it! Awesome writing for little Jay indeed.  :Big Grin:

----------


## EMarie

> Looking at the completed prototype, yup, I'm keeping the helmet on. The face looks off and not just by the white streak.


I thought so too. I think it's the eyes and eyebrows since I don't have as much trouble with the mask.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Finally read it! Awesome writing for little Jay indeed.


As someone who is still catching up with Bombshells can I get some details please.

----------


## G-Potion

I think because of this particular expression, in pictures it looks good at certain angles only. I still think it's lovely like this. Seems like it's not the final version yet so there's room for improvement though.

----------


## G-Potion

> As someone who is still catching up with Bombshells can I get some details please.


*spoilers:*
So there's a fight with Black Adam, most of the adults are cornered, then you get baby Jason saving the day in the same vein as For the Man Who Has Everything, bravery and cheekiness in equal amount. And then you get a great speech to show his very mature understanding of what his moms are going through. And his vulnerability because of how he was resurrected. He wants to stay where the pit is but doesn't want his moms to waste their life away staying down there with him.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> Whaaa he is their leader? I must have missed it in my reading.


Oh wait! You're right! Im Sorry! I dont recall a confirmation myself. Apologies, I think I assumed that based on both the outfit and also the fact that Dick knows him and speaks of him in an infamous way. Then again, if Jason isnt the leader and is instead just THAT infamous all on his own without a particularly important role, thats also pretty impressive. The lifer kid  :Big Grin:

----------


## oasis1313

Ikemen Jason looks fantastic!!!!!!!  Is he coming out after Ikemen Dick?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Ikemen Jason looks fantastic!!!!!!!  Is he coming out after Ikemen Dick?


Looks like it. I think they've been going in order of the Robins unless I'm mistaken. I've yet to see Tim and Damian's final designs.

----------


## SpentShrimp

The Ikemen Jason isn't for me. I don't like the pose or face.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> *spoilers:*
> So there's a fight with Black Adam, most of the adults are cornered, then you get baby Jason saving the day in the same vein as For the Man Who Has Everything, bravery and cheekiness in equal amount. And then you get a great speech to show his very mature understanding of what his moms are going through. And his vulnerability because of how he was resurrected. He wants to stay where the pit is but doesn't want his moms to waste their life away staying down there with him.
> *end of spoilers*


Thanks mate.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh wait! You're right! Im Sorry! I dont recall a confirmation myself. Apologies, I think I assumed that based on both the outfit and also the fact that Dick knows him and speaks of him in an infamous way. Then again, if Jason isnt the leader and is instead just THAT infamous all on his own without a particularly important role, thats also pretty impressive. The lifer kid


Have to re-read it again but we all assumed because he's the one talking and the better fighter. We can also assume the recent flashback to mark a difference. The RH gang seem to have a leader here who's doing the speech but their collective might wasent the better of Canary and the garage gang ( they were ambushed tho and Jason wasent given figthing panels), wheras on the road Jason alone was dancing around Banshee and Barda. If that's really Jay in the reunion flashback he's not only younger, he could have rise to be either a right hand man or leader since he was the one calling the shots in the weapon heist. 

Interesting that the leader in the flashback sounds equally sass about Luthor despite them being work for hire. I wonder if Jason called it shite, took the leading and started to rob Luthor just recently. Or maybe created his own Hood faction..

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh wait! You're right! Im Sorry! I dont recall a confirmation myself. Apologies, I think I assumed that based on both the outfit and also the fact that Dick knows him and speaks of him in an infamous way. Then again, if Jason isnt the leader and is instead just THAT infamous all on his own without a particularly important role, thats also pretty impressive. The lifer kid


No problem at all. He's gonna do it off panel anyway.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kiwiliko

Some Gotham by Gaslight fanart coming through!

lkjhg_0fdsa @ https://twitter.com/lkjhg_0fdsa/stat...33212758618112


and toixx @ https://twitter.com/toi139/status/952217463369867264

----------


## RedBird

> Color version looks soooo goood!!


Lookin GOOOD

Is this perhaps the return to a darker Red Hood that Lobdell spoke of? Its got that mafia or drug lord vibe.

Also granted its hard to tell but....Is that a book in his other hand?
First Soy gives us the half angel half man symbolism, now its half drug lord, half lit nerd XD


Dont mind me, I'm just here reading. In the dark. With a gun in my hand. If this is the case its high quality _extra_

----------


## G-Potion

> Some Gotham by Gaslight fanart coming through!


Those are cute!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Lookin GOOOD
> 
> Is this perhaps the return to a darker Red Hood that Lobdell spoke of? Its got that mafia or drug lord vibe.
> 
> Also granted its hard to tell but....Is that a book in his other hand?
> First Soy gives us the half angel half man symbolism, now its half drug lord, half lit nerd XD
> 
> 
> Dont mind me, I'm just here reading. In the dark. With a gun in my hand. If this is the case its high quality _extra_


Yeah the book was the first thing I noticed with the color version too. This book reads better in the dark because I say so and do I need to remind you that I have a gun.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

http://redimperialist.tumblr.com

Injustice 2 model.

----------


## G-Potion

https://lonelygoer.deviantart.com

----------


## Aioros22

Seems like Sean Murphy will expand his White Knight story further

https://twitter.com/Sean_G_Murphy/st...55248589578240

Hoping this leads to Batman`s fall, Dick and Barbara swtching sides and the resolution to Jason`s fate if he can`t cram everything in the missing issues of his first vol. The main focus seems to be more on the Harleys now.

----------


## SpentShrimp

"Well, Geoff's idea was to have Red Hood be the Jason Todd of Earth-Two. So he'd be this kid, who wanted to be Batman's sidekick. He sneaks into the Batcave, and the first thing he sees as he boots up the bat-computers is... Batman murdered. And so he uses Bruce's stuff, training himself to take over for him. I think there was even talk of his possibly being Deathstroke's Robin."

Pretty interesting concept for Earth-Two Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/Sean_G_Murphy/st...57418957283333

Well so much for that.

----------


## G-Potion

Maybe all is not lost.

----------


## RedBird

> "Well, Geoff's idea was to have Red Hood be the Jason Todd of Earth-Two. So he'd be this kid, who wanted to be Batman's sidekick. He sneaks into the Batcave, and the first thing he sees as he boots up the bat-computers is... Batman murdered. And so he uses Bruce's stuff, training himself to take over for him. I think there was even talk of his possibly being Deathstroke's Robin."
> 
> Pretty interesting concept for Earth-Two Jason.


Could you perhaps provide a link or source for this info?
Its super interesting and kind of a sad missed oppurtunity to display Earth Two Jason, but ever since I heard this rumor I have still never found a source for it. Was it just word of mouth?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I _think_ is mentioned on the extras of UtRH

----------


## Aioros22

> https://twitter.com/Sean_G_Murphy/st...57418957283333
> 
> Well so much for that.


Not really, pretty appearant he changed his mind from his initial script. We don`t see Jason die at all in the book, after all, which is something he could have easily made a strong hint at. 

As G posted, his reason to include Jason has grown beyond the Easter Egg use.

----------


## Aahz

For some reason the writers keep underestimating Jason's popularity.

----------


## Aioros22

I can excuse Murphy in that regard since he hasn`t been mainstream up until now. And yes, it _can_ suck that the iconography of being killed by the Joker for Jason is so attached to the character that it runs the risk of writers themselves not eyeing forward but what Murphy says ahead, proves that not only writers nowadays tend to find themselves pushing forward from the cathartic moment (as equally evident in a number of other alternative continuities/works in recent years) that in doing so, they do end aknowledging his popularity frame. 

Case in point: in _White Knight_, from the creator`s proverbial mouth, what started as a mere Easter Egg will be expanded on more in the story and that alone is another likely example of the character slowly stepping up from that one moment in time.

----------


## Assam

You guys have any idea what caused RHatO to take such a big drop in December? I seem to recall the last few months it managed to stay pretty stable, but it just lost about 1,700 and it's now in the 21,000 range.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is the normal range for the series though.

----------


## adrikito

> You guys have any idea what caused RHatO to take such a big drop in December? I seem to recall the last few months it managed to stay pretty stable, but it just lost about 1,700 and it's now in the 21,000 range.


I didn´t know that..  :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> You guys have any idea what caused RHatO to take such a big drop in December? I seem to recall the last few months it managed to stay pretty stable, but it just lost about 1,700 and it's now in the 21,000 range.


Don't know but it is not the only book, Green Arrow, Nightwing, Green Lanterns, Aquaman, Trinity, Suicide Squad they all dropped by a similar amount.

On the positive site, RHatO got into the Bleeding Cool Bestseller list for last week. https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/01...list-01-14-18/ I think it is the first time with exception of the Annual.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Could you perhaps provide a link or source for this info?
> Its super interesting and kind of a sad missed oppurtunity to display Earth Two Jason, but ever since I heard this rumor I have still never found a source for it. Was it just word of mouth?


Hardcover of Infinite Crisis Page 258.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm curious as to what would happen if the sales continue to drop. Lobdell has had some good success as a screen writer, sooooo.

----------


## RedBird

> Hardcover of Infinite Crisis Page 258.


Ah! Thank you

I don't have the hardcover book myself, but its still good to know where I could find it later on.
I wonder why they halted the idea?

----------


## RedBird

[x]

I hope like Father Todd, Reed Hood becomes one of those concepts that just, sticks around fandom yknow?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Ah! Thank you
> 
> I don't have the hardcover book myself, but its still good to know where I could find it later on.
> I wonder why they halted the idea?


I really wish we could get more alternate versions of Jason. Last Crusade was good up until they just toed the line on his death.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm curious as to what would happen if the sales continue to drop. Lobdell has had some good success as a screen writer, sooooo.


They won't drop much. As I said, 19k~23k is the range the book has had since the start of the N52, six years have build it a solid audience.

Better pics of the Ikemen figure

https://www.mamegyorai.co.jp/net/mai...px?item=512242

Alongside a price 7700 yen or 77 bucks.

----------


## G-Potion

Neeaat! Thanks, Dark. They look good in higher resolution. My favorite shot:

----------


## RedBird

> Neeaat! Thanks, Dark. They look good in higher resolution. My favorite shot:


Nice, the eyes almost look different in this shot though, kinda thinner. I like it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.newsarama.com/38179-batm...undefined.uxfs

It might be interesting to have Jason involved on Sanctuary but I don't like King's writing and it feels hypocrital to have Batman out all the possible characters to give psychological counsel.

----------


## Aioros22

> I really wish we could get more alternate versions of Jason. Last Crusade was good up until they just toed the line on his death.


I wish we could have seen more but we all knew what _Last Crusade_ was about, It`s the turning point that makes the Dark Knight Returns. Pure and simple.

----------


## Aioros22

I love the whole bit about the statue with and sans helmet but I was definatly *not* expecting to see the bonus Domino mask





100 points for extra!

----------


## Aioros22

From the Newsarama _Sanctuary_ article: 

"The DCU has a bunch of superheroes and all they do is fight, every time, and that must have a psychological effect on them, right? You cant live a life of violence and not feel that violence deep in your heartand we also have a group of superheroes, the Trinity, who care about these other heroes," King explained at this weekend's DC in D.C. event (via CBR). "They sort of feel like parental figures, the foundation that stands beneath them. And they care about them for two reasons: one, because theyre good people, but two, if superheroes feel trauma and it drives them a little mad, thats a danger. So, as both a *practical* and a *compassionate* matter, theyve set up something called Sanctuary, which is a place that you can go, modelled on veterans crisis centerswhich is an interesting name for themand *talk about this trauma* and *admit that this had an effect on you*; where you can admit that being a superhero and seeing a life of violence and seeing people get hurt around you, that that has some sort of impact on youand Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman can help you."



Confirmation that Bruce is only the money behind the project.

----------


## Aioros22

http://sleepmian.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Anyone seen Gotham by Gaslight yet? 



Countdown Presents: The Search for Ray Palmer : Gotham By Gaslight #1 - DUSTIN NGUYEN

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I love the whole bit about the statue with and sans helmet but I was definatly *not* expecting to see the bonus Domino mask
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100 points for extra!


It looks so bad to me. I know it's a type of style, but it does not work well with Jason. Too feminine.

----------


## Aioros22

Theatrical flaire good sir.

----------


## kiwiliko

Looking at the concept sketches, Jason and Bruce are probably going to be the most masculine leaning for this style. Bishounen indeed has theatrical flaire  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Theatrical flaire good sir.


No, it's pretty corny.

----------


## RedBird

Lady-Yen-Bug Arkham Knight Studies

----------


## G-Potion

Seeing these pages again on tumblr. So much feel!! Wish he'd guest star in RHATO one day.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

> No, it's pretty corny.


We are going to have to agree to disagree but "corny" for a Bishonen line got mileage  :Wink:

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Aahz

> I really wish we could get more alternate versions of Jason. Last Crusade was good up until they just toed the line on his death.


But even on alternate Universes he gets usually killed quite quickly, it would be nice if they would show him a little bit more as Robin.




> It might be interesting to have Jason involved on Sanctuary but I don't like King's writing and it feels hypocrital to have Batman out all the possible characters to give psychological counsel.


With King writing it I'm hoping that Jason doesn't have anything to do with it. 

And the way King writes Batman it seems that he would be actually the one how needs psychological counsel.

----------


## G-Potion

Jason are you even trying where are those suits you got from N52.

IMG_20180119_173103.jpg

----------


## RedBird

> Jason are you even trying where are those suits you got from N52.
> 
> IMG_20180119_173103.jpg


Doesnt the issue mention something about a visit to the batcave? Now with that info coupled with this imagery makes me honestly want for this issue to contain a joyride in the batmobile, if not I will be sorely dissapointed.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Doesnt the issue mention something about a visit to the batcave? Now with that info coupled with this imagery makes me honestly want for this issue to contain a joyride in the batmobile, if not I will be sorely dissapointed.


It's the car not the suit that counts.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

" Here, let me show you how to have a good time in the fancy supercar '

----------


## EMarie

"The wheel I stole was actually on the other side."

----------


## Rac7d*

i thought Artemis was a lesbian

----------


## kaimaciel

> i thought Artemis was a lesbian


She's Bisexual.

----------


## Rac7d*

> She's Bisexual.


and she fell for Jason?

----------


## EMarie

> and she fell for Jason?


The issue hasn't come out yet. Some think it's a mission although there has been potential hints in past issues that there might be more there. I don't think Lobdell would go there so soon given interviews.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> and she fell for Jason?


Lobdell is very anti-Jason/Artemis in interviews, so I don't think it's as it seems from the solicit.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Jason are you even trying where are those suits you got from N52.


Jeans and sneakers Alfred would be so disappointed.

At least he seems to be wearing a T-shirt for this instead of arriving in full out chest plate armour.

----------


## G-Potion

Funko stop teasing just give us RH already smh.

----------


## G-Potion

Cuteee.

----------


## okiedokiewo

So Bombshells seems to be swiftly heading to its inevitable tragic conclusion.

----------


## Korath

> So Bombshells seems to be swiftly heading to its inevitable tragic conclusion.


I don't read it, could you explain ?

----------


## G-Potion

> So Bombshells seems to be swiftly heading to its inevitable tragic conclusion.


I always forget this comes out once a week or so but daaaarn this is too much. When is DC gonna explore an AU where Jason is well and happy? Gotta say though, I appreaciate the way Robin Jay has been portrayed in this series, with so many noble qualities.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I don't read it, could you explain ?


*spoilers:*
Short story: Jason was revived, but it appears as though he can't ever leave the underground area they are in. He doesn't want to eventually go mad and feels like he had his chance at life already and doesn't belong, and he doesn't want to make his mothers there with him, so he's shown walking toward the pit with Isis in the last panel of the last issue. A lot of this is part of a larger story you have to read the comics to understand. But it's also to stop Black Adam. There's lot of sad lines about robins and birds and tears will be shed soon lol, but Jason is a brave and noble little boy.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

Dramatic sequences about the effect the Pit had on a young Jason was obvious from the get go. I find it would be a missed opportunity if they didn`t explore it and frankly I`m not too worried about him dying again unless is as a sacrífice to stop Black Adam`s facist reign. All I care right now is to enjoy the large ammount of plot and screen time dedicated to his noble and heroic qualities of his, something usually amiss and undevelopded outside flashbacks. 

While I do want the happy ending for him in this verse, the hero journey for him seems interesting. He looks quite mature for his age...which reminds me of how Donna described him back on Teen Titans. Well, her and Dick actually. Dick even compared him favorably to how he was to when he was young.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Dramatic sequences about the effect the Pit had on a young Jason was obvious from the get go. I find it would be a miss of they didn`t explore it and frankly I`m not too worried about him dying again unless is as a sacrífice to stop Black Adam`s facist reign. All I care right now is to enjoy the large ammount of plot and screen time dedicated to his noble and heroic qualities of his toodler self, something usually amiss and undevelopded out of flashbacks. 
> 
> While I do want the happy ending for him in this verse, the hero journey for him seems interesting. He looks quite mature for his age...which reminds me of how Donna described him back on Teen Titans. Well, her and Dick actually. Dick even compared him favorably to how he was to when he was young.


*spoilers:*
Yeah, there is a possibility for a twist, but I'm not going to assume, especially since the final panel was about him and Isis sacrificing to stop Black Adam. But the comic also did end there, so it can walk back from it. 

I'm not sure how it would work for in the future since he's a kid and would they have him with his moms all the time? Seems doubtful, so what would they do with him? I was thinking Cheetah might be involved in some way, but she did have an attempted sacrifice moment already,  so we'll see.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aahz

Jason using a slingshot in Bombshells got me thinking, did he ever used one as Robin? Dick and Tim both did in early stories but I don't think that Jason ever did.

----------


## adrikito

Two Robins, two Guns.

Jason Todd Red Hood Savior.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #21
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details. Includes a code for a free digital download of this issue.
> Looking to make his mark on Gotham City’s crowded underworld, Red Hood infiltrates the Iceberg Lounge in an attempt to further annoy the Penguin. But it might be the Penguin who gets the drop on Red Hood this time. Plus, the truth about Bizarro’s condition finally comes out—and the consequences could be catastrophic for Artemis!
> On sale APRIL 11 • 32 pg, FC $3.99 US • RATED T



Ehhhh, not really excited about the Penguin showing up.

----------


## Aioros22

The cover doesn`t excite me but the use of Penguin will depend on plot. 

But hey, seems like Loedbell agrees with you after all "looking to make a mark on Gotham`s Underworld"...ehhhh he`s already supposed to have a repsheet, dude.

----------


## Aioros22

About the TMNT/Batman finale, not sure if I am glad or not that Jason won`t likely be in but I`d sure read a story with him, Casey and Raphael beating some invasion in the city!

----------


## magpieM

Why did many of you mention Jason? He's only 7~8 years older than Damian.

(And I still think that the 'DNA test' result is just a way to create drama. Bruce will still be his father in the end.)

----------


## G-Potion

I like the cover. And it looks like Jason's crime lord life is getting more focus as both #20 and #21 deal with it. Just what I want. Can't get enough tuft wars after all.

----------


## kiwiliko

Yeahhhh I'm ready to see some good old crime lord Jason

----------


## G-Potion

> Plus, the truth about Bizarro’s condition finally comes out—and the consequences could be catastrophic for Artemis!


I still wonder about this phrase though. Why does it affect Artemis specifically? Does it mean Jason is out of the loop as Artemis discovers the truth or is Bizzaro's condition something that ties to Artemis herself?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

To be honest, as much as I like Lobdell's take on Bizarro, I feel the whole thing with his condition is being dragged too long. Editors had the right idea when they planned for it to just last three issues. 

And I wouldn't be so sure to assume we're actually going to see crime lord Jason since the way solicits are worded doesn't really sound like it will be the focus.

----------


## G-Potion

Nonetheless it will make his bad guy act more believable though.

----------


## Aahz

> About the TMNT/Batman finale, not sure if I am glad or not that Jason won`t likely be in but I`d sure read a story with him, Casey and Raphael beating some invasion in the city!


I would really like to see the the Turtles team up with all Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian, but it looks like the middle Kids are again ignored.

----------


## Aioros22

It's Tynion, you wouldn't like it anyway.

----------


## Aioros22

> I like the cover. And it looks like Jason's crime lord life is getting more focus as both #20 and #21 deal with it. Just what I want. Can't get enough tuft wars after all.


Main focus or not it is at least a focus. As for Bizarro it shows the original arc was smaller but I'm thinking the reception was good and they extended or Loedbell saw something in it that he hadn't before. 

Either way yes the arc should have been smaller but I dig the character work and parallell.

----------


## magpieM

> I still wonder about this phrase though. Why does it affect Artemis specifically? Does it mean Jason is out of the loop as Artemis discovers the truth or is Bizzaro's condition something that ties to Artemis herself?


Because of Creeper, I guess. Maybe Bizarro is really determined to invite him to the team.

----------


## Aahz

> Because of Creeper, I guess. Maybe Bizarro is really determined to invite him to the team.


Btw. i was wandering of they would expand the "Drak Trinity" to the "Dark Big 6", who would be in your opinion the fitting characters from the Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman Franchises?

----------


## RedBird

> Btw. i was wandering of they would expand the "Drak Trinity" to the "Dark Big 6", who would be in your opinion the fitting characters from the Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman Franchises?


I think I'd kinda be down for this 'Big *dark* Hero 6' group  :Big Grin: 

Question is who would you use? I feel like theres enough Green Lanterns to go around, even 'dark' ones, Guy feels like the obvious choice but I'd honestly go for Kyle just for the classic bat vs GL feud and hyjinks. Would have been easy enough if we were counting GA as well, I'm sure Roy can return if that was the case. Maybe even Kori for the 'clearly alien' aspect that JL characters like Martian Manhunter brought.

But who would you choose out of the Flash and Aquaman franchise? Thawne is the only one I can think of but he feels TOO evil, and I'm just not as familiar with the Aquaman characters outside of Arthur, Mera, Kaldur and Garth.

----------


## EMarie

> Btw. i was wandering of they would expand the "Drak Trinity" to the "Dark Big 6", who would be in your opinion the fitting characters from the Flash, Green Lantern and Aquaman Franchises?


I'm not sure Lobdell would get "dark" versions of other big name characters with Creeper being brought in. Sure he's not officially a member yet but I don't think he's going away especially with the history he seems to have with Artemis. I'd honestly see Lobdell leaning more towards misfits that don't really appear to fit into other books than expanding on the mirrored versions of the JL.

But if he did Godspeed (Flash), Dolphin (Aquaman), Variant ?(Cyborg) and I don't know who would fill the GL spot. I can't see any of them working with Jason in charge.

----------


## RedBird

> I'd honestly see Lobdell leaning more towards misfits that don't really appear to fit into other books than expanding on the mirrored versions of the JL.
> 
> But if he did Godspeed (Flash), Dolphin (Aquaman), Variant ?(Cyborg) and I don't know who would fill the GL spot.


Nice choices, I didn't think of Godspeed but with his sort of path for redemption he could work quite well, and whilst I knew about Dolphin, I wasn't quite sure about her moral compass, is she a kinda 'grey' character? I know she was in the older Aquaman comics but just based on the recent ones she seems to be a mute girl that wants to help Arthur, is she necessarily 'dark' in some way? And considering the recent push for Cyborg as a more mature JL member rather than a Titans member I don't see him being allowed on this team, even he seems a bit too close to the 'main party'.




> I can't see any of them working with Jason in charge.


Yeah true, but in all fairness I didn't see Artemis working with Jason in charge either, but that dynamic was worked in quite well by Lobdell. Realistically I'd be willing to give him a shot at a larger team, on the condition that we could still have rebirth rhato as an ongoing as well. I'd rather not give up rhato since I personally think Lobdells writing flourishes best with smaller and more close knit teams anyway.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think I'd kinda be down for this 'Big *dark* Hero 6' group 
> 
> Question is who would you use? I feel like theres enough Green Lanterns to go around, even 'dark' ones, Guy feels like the obvious choice but I'd honestly go for Kyle just for the classic bat vs GL feud and hyjinks. Would have been easy enough if we were counting GA as well, I'm sure Roy can return if that was the case. Maybe even Kori for the 'clearly alien' aspect that JL characters like Martian Manhunter brought.
> 
> But who would you choose out of the Flash and Aquaman franchise? Thawne is the only one I can think of but he feels TOO evil, and I'm just not as familiar with the Aquaman characters outside of Arthur, Mera, Kaldur and Garth.


Thawne is flat out Jokerish evil, no way. But there`s so many I am not even aware that it wouldn`t be the hardest pick. Same with a Kyle or Guy. 

From the Aquaman franchise you could use Arion the immortal sorcerer.

----------


## EMarie

> Nice choices, I didn't think of Godspeed but with his sort of path for redemption he could work quite well, and whilst I knew about Dolphin, I wasn't quite sure about her moral compass, is she a kinda 'grey' character? I know she was in the older Aquaman comics but just based on the recent ones she seems to be a mute girl that wants to help Arthur, is she necessarily 'dark' in some way? And considering the recent push for Cyborg as a more mature JL member rather than a Titans member I don't see him being allowed on this team, even he seems a bit too close to the 'main party'.


Lobdell has said that Outlaws is a term he relates more to the team attitude than being lawbreakers. Dolphin is considered an outsider due to her being able to take a more gilled appearance. She's part of a rebellion with Aquaman to overthrow Rath. Cyborg? I was referring to the woman who I believe is named Variant with the same kind of abilities as him.




> Yeah true, but in all fairness I didn't see Artemis working with Jason in charge either, but that dynamic was worked in quite well by Lobdell. Realistically I'd be willing to give him a shot at a larger team, on the condition that we could still have rebirth rhato as an ongoing as well. I'd rather not give up rhato since I personally think Lobdells writing flourishes best with smaller and more close knit teams anyway.


The difference for me is that Artemis, while being a more in your face Amazon than Diana will still go along if the leadership and mission is noble enough. I've seen a lot of GLs that are more inclined to see Jason either as Bruce's wayward kid and quick to make judgments. Hal for example has jumped to conclusions about Booster Gold several times without making an attempt to see beyond his facade. I see most of them wanting to take over command which might work with JL stories but not on a team based in Gotham that needs to be undercover. If their a more JL team then they'd attract more attention and authorities would want to know why the JL isn't stopping them. Agreed though it might work if the team grows slowly.

----------


## RedBird

> Cyborg? I was referring to the woman who I believe is named Variant


 oh I see, my bad. Thanks for clearing that up.

----------


## Aahz

> Question is who would you use? I feel like theres enough Green Lanterns to go around, even 'dark' ones, Guy feels like the obvious choice but I'd honestly go for Kyle just for the classic bat vs GL feud and hyjinks.


Guy seems to obvious, and I don't really think Jason and Artemis would keep up with him. I actually think G'nort could fit in, since the Outlaws are kind of the screw ups of the franchises. Or maybe some one from a different Lantern Core but I'm not really familar with these characters (Razer is unfortunatly not arround in the comics). 

In case of Flash the only one I could think of was Owen Mercer (he is appearently Bart Allans Half Brother), but he isn't really a Speedster and and not around in the new 52. And I'm also not really familiar with the more obscure Speedsters.

And I have really no idea about Aquaman.




> Would have been easy enough if we were counting GA as well, I'm sure Roy can return if that was the case.


I think it would be kind of fun twist to use Connor instead, since he he is the only Arrow family member who is not in some way screwed up, which makes him in way an outsider in that family. (And he is has not any strong relations with any other Batfamily members or with an other team)

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm still hoping for a Christopher Priest Red Hood solo.

----------


## EMarie

> Guy seems to obvious, and I don't really think Jason and Artemis would keep up with him. I actually think G'nort could fit in, since the Outlaws are kind of the screw ups of the franchises. Or maybe some one from a different Lantern Core but I'm not really familar with these characters (Razer is unfortunatly not arround in the comics).


I don't know if Guy would get along with them plus he'd have to be in Gotham a lot and be branded an Outlaw. Being in Gotham means playing by the rules and dealing with Batman. As great as that would be I can't see Guy willingly putting himself in that position. It depends on how G'Nort was written since JLI wrote him as a lovable idiot that screws up all the time. I think Johns made him darker but it didn't work for me. The idea of him working on Earth and being taken seriously as a lawbreaker is a little farfetched given how he's previously been written. If a Lantern was on their team it'd probably have to be an alien to work.




> In case of Flash the only one I could think of was Owen Mercer (he is appearently Bart Allans Half Brother), but he isn't really a Speedster and and not around in the new 52. And I'm also not really familiar with the more obscure Speedsters.
> 
> And I have really no idea about Aquaman.
> 
> I think it would be kind of fun twist to use Connor instead, since he he is the only Arrow family member who is not in some way screwed up, which makes him in way an outsider in that family. (And he is has not any strong relations with any other Batfamily members or with an other team)


Owen would have to get rid of the baggage from what was done to his character in Blackest Night. It's new canon, sorta, but like Arsenal swinging a dead cat the character needs to be used in a way to get past a bad story. I don't believe they ever touched on Owen and Bart finding out they were brothers which seems like an obvious plot.

Connor in general is cool but we already have an archer with Artemis.

----------


## Jovos2099

what about victor sage/the question or constanine as new members.

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy Cool?

I swear Soys Jason gets younger by the day  :Big Grin:

----------


## EMarie

Jason is supposed to be young and I'm always glad when someone remembers that.

Vic Sage? I'd rather focus on Jason using his detective skills and I'd think Artemis would throttle Constantine after dealing with him for a day. I've been looking at other possible anti-heroes and maybe Silver Swan or Holly Robinson could be good.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Dexter Soy Cool?
> 
> I swear Soys Jason gets younger by the day


Nice. Soy's art is the best.

----------


## magpieM

> Dexter Soy Cool?
> I swear Soys Jason gets younger by the day


Absolutely. Now we just need a story for this scene.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dexter Soy Cool?
> I swear Soys Jason gets younger by the day


Same! And it looks like his Jason has been more and more expressive as well.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Myfigurecollection.net did an interview with the product planner for IKEMEN Red Hood.

https://myfigurecollection.net/blog/39017







> It was really difficult to get the shape of the mouth to match the concept art. He’s supposed to have his lips pursed as he clicks his tongue in irritation, but it kept turning into more of a flirty pout, which doesn’t match Red Hood’s “bad boy” image at all. But the sculptor worked really hard and eventually we were able to get it down!


(It still looks like a pout though  :Stick Out Tongue: )

----------


## RedBird

> Myfigurecollection.net did an interview with the product planner for IKEMEN Red Hood.


Ha, this whole interview is great.


_Q3: As the creator, is there anything that you payed extra attention to that you’d like to point out to everyone?

"Well, I think one of the first things you’ll notice is his *ahem* derriere!

Red Hood’s ample backside is the complete opposite of Nightwing’s toned glutes. I’ve talked about it in previous blog posts, but one of the biggest differences between the Nightwing and Red Hood IKEMEN are their body types. Nightwing is very lean and toned while Red Hood has a little more meat on his bones.

I also like how the space between his body and the jacket turned out. It makes me want to stick my hands inside!"_


I appreciate the extra effort made for this chunky robin or Mr 'meat on his bones' XD

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Huh, so the Domino Mask is a first print bonus.

----------


## G-Potion

Art time! 

From 訇死亡



Have you guys watched Gotham by Gaslight yet?

----------


## RedBird

Yup, it was alright. Nothing great but, seeing all those cameos made me smile.  :Smile: 

Anyone read the latest Bombshells? They pulled out classic curly haired Jay for that finale. Also *spoilers:*
the fact that the red string of fate Kate spoke of (basically a symbolic string that ties you to your soul mate) was not tied to either of her lovers, but her son Jason. Now that was pretty heartbreaking. Also that send off, Hoo Boy. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## kiwiliko

> Yup, it was alright. Nothing great but, seeing all those cameos made me smile. 
> 
> Anyone read the latest Bombshells? They pulled out classic curly haired Jay for that finale. Also *spoilers:*
> the fact that the red string of fate Kate spoke of (basically a symbolic string that ties you to your soul mate) was not tied to either of her lovers, but her son Jason. Now that was pretty heartbreaking. Also that send off, Hoo Boy. 
> *end of spoilers*


Agreed, all the boys were so adorable in Gaslight. Would've loved also to see their sister get to join that little rag tag group too even though I know that's not happening now.
*spoilers:*
Bombshells has really been banging. I'm so happy there's a well written little Jay (for the size of the cast, all of them actually have pretty decent character writings) and to add onto that. Wow, look at that sheer difference there is between Bombshells universe and canon when someone coming back from a traumatic experience gets to have family and emotional support around them. I realize even Damian's resurrection on some part touched on this idea but it put so much of the spotlight on Bruce's feelings that once again, we skipped getting to hear how the one who actually died still feels about their own re-entry to life. It's pretty interesting this one's a Jason who pretty much found his closure, has likely forgiven his killer and is ready to go back to his own path. I thought this was a great take on what it means to use the Lazarus pit in a narrative without trying to shock value an old character back to life. 

Also there's maybe a couple of lines Jason says in this arc that for some reason gave flashbacks to Death from Sandman or was that just me? 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone read the latest Bombshells? They pulled out classic curly haired Jay for that finale. Also *spoilers:*
> the fact that the red string of fate Kate spoke of (basically a symbolic string that ties you to your soul mate) was not tied to either of her lovers, but her son Jason. Now that was pretty heartbreaking. Also that send off, Hoo Boy. 
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I finally read it and daang what a good issue! I love the almost silence in the latter half, and the only word spoken was Jason's name. As heartbreaking that send-off was, it's a consolation that he's not alone this time. Now I really need to reread the other issues just to pickup possible hints about the red thread. Also really happy that Talia is written as badass self in this series. Rebirth has been horrible to her. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> *spoilers:*
> I finally read it and daang what a good issue! I love the almost silence in the latter half, and the only word spoken was Jason's name. As heartbreaking that send-off was, it's a consolation that he's not alone this time. Now I really need to reread the other issues just to pickup possible hints about the red thread. Also really happy that Talia is written as badass self in this series. Rebirth has been horrible to her. 
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Yeah the final goodbye really got to me. Its another send off for Jason, but probably one of his best, definitely more bittersweet than brutal whilst still in keeping with the nobleness, selflessness and bravery that made me love RobinJay in the first place. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the dialogue about the red thread of fate was a repeat within issue 15, when Kate and Renee use the red thread of the baseball through the maze, (same monologue) its also kind of fitting since throughout the entire series Kate spends her time daydreaming and reminisces about her days with Maggie and about her time with Renee. The writer wove that thread (pardon the pun) pretty well, the whole time I was waiting for the sort of 'reveal', as to who really captured Kates heart. Was it her sweet days with Maggie? Or the passionate fight alongside Renee? Like I said, that's where the heart break happens when the one forever connected to her, turns out to be Jason, her child, all along. ;_;
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Barbatos666

What's the difference between Bombshells and Bombshells united and where is Jason showing up?

----------


## G-Potion

More fanart for the fic Retrogade Motion.

http://lightningstrikes-art.tumblr.c...t/170033855349

----------


## G-Potion

Robin Jay and Tim from http://deflare.lofter.com/. I just love how spetacular it looks!!

----------


## G-Potion

http://what-the-f-word.lofter.com/

Love these poses!

----------


## G-Potion

Same artist!

----------


## RedBird

> What's the difference between Bombshells and Bombshells united and where is Jason showing up?


Bombshells is basically the first series and Bombshells United is a continuation of that. 
Jason has shown up in both as a child.


Jason first showed up (within a flashback) in bombshells issue #46 as a child that Kate finds and adopts with Renee during the Spanish Civil War. Both his origin and death are both presented and mirrored slightly from canon in this rendition whereupon he dies in a battlefield from Cheetah shooting him. Throughout the rest of bombshells he would show up in minor flashbacks for angst y moments and a painful reminder for both Kate and Renee. At the end of Bombshells though the last we see of Cheetah shows the remorse she feels from killing a child and she visits Jasons grave.


First Meeting (reminiscing)
_"...My Petirrojo. My Capucha Rojo."
"...My Robin. My Red Hood." - translated_



Bombshells United, picks up from the last series to follow Kates fight alongside Renee once again, (the series features a lot of old war scenarios) they come across both Talia Al Ghul and Cheetah who had apparently resurrected Jason using the Lazarus pits in an act of redemption. Jason returns revived around issue #18 for Bombshells United and the past few issues onward (its currently up to issue #23) have been based around Kate Renee and Jasons first and last moments together as a family whilst they fight back from the arcs antagonist Black Adam.



Kate and Renee reunited with a newly resurrected Jason.

----------


## RedBird

Beautiful Art! The one with Robin Jay has spectacular colors, its gorgeous, and I always love seeing art of Arkhamverse Jay, especially with those cool dynamic poses.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

Hope Jay gets to star in something else besides RHATO, now that his presence in Bombshells is likely over. Or Injustice should just hurry up and reveal him already.

----------


## G-Potion

Kinda sad that of all the Robins, Jason so far hasn't participated in any DC events. Granted, not that it has done the other robins any good but, whyyyyy.

----------


## Barbatos666

Thanks for the info Red Bird.

----------


## Aahz

> Kinda sad that of all the Robins, Jason so far hasn't participated in any DC events. Granted, not that it has done the other robins any good but, whyyyyy.


I would allready be happy if he would finally get a main role in a Batfamily event, or made some cross over event of RhatO and one or two other series were Jason can a little shine.

It is kind of wired how much we discuss the elseworld stuff here, because he is used so little (and ofter poorly) in the main universe.

----------


## RedBird

> Hope Jay gets to star in something else besides RHATO, now that his presence in Bombshells is likely over. Or Injustice should just hurry up and reveal him already.


Yeah, its funny that he seems more IC and so shines better in smaller books. And oh boy Injustice is sure taking its sweet time with that reveal, at this point I don't even care if its Jason or not, but just give me the confirmation DC.

Also, I'm certain Jason will show up again in GCG again, and considering his role in it last time, I'm looking forward to what the book has to offer. (Plus of course its a great book all round, I loved the recent reinterpretation of Lois and Jimmy.) And concerning the role of RHMC, despite the fact that Luthor wants to hire them, RHMC just appeared a tad more self reliant to me, or at the end of the day a club that follows their own code of conduct, so to speak (no matter how wild that is). They seem a bit too unpredictable and thus perhaps may be swayed around to the other side or something? I dunno, I generally wouldn't think so, and they probably will only be used as 'muscle', but considering the heavy character work within the series and the spotlight on Jason within the Hoods, I'm still holding out a thread of hope that we might see, something more? At least from him? Or we may not, but I can always enjoy Jason in this Mad Max themed world having the original Mad Max outfit, that jackets so cool  :Big Grin: 




> Kinda sad that of all the Robins, Jason so far hasn't participated in any DC events. Granted, not that it has done the other robins any good but, whyyyyy.


Depends I suppose, what counts as a DC event? The only one I can think of is Metal and far as I know only Dick, Damian and Duke (Ha, triple D) have been featured in that.




> Thanks for the info Red Bird.


No prob  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Depends I suppose, what counts as a DC event? The only one I can think of is Metal and far as I know only Dick, Damian and Duke (Ha, triple D) have been featured in that.


Batfam events count for me as well so, Night of the Monster Men. Though not an event, I'd count Future Tim too as its effect spans several titles. However in term of characterization I for sure wouldn't want it for Jason.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

And if DC let Tom King handle Jason's psyche in Sanctuary I'm gonna be so mad. If the rumor about an event that involves Jason's resurrection is true, I want Lobdell to helm that.

----------


## EMarie

> And if DC let Tom King handle Jason's psyche in Sanctuary I'm gonna be so mad. If the rumor about an event that involves Jason's resurrection is true, I want Lobdell to helm that.


Ditto on both accounts. There's just not that many writers that seem to get his character in the main canon.

----------


## RedBird

> And if DC let Tom King handle Jason's psyche in Sanctuary I'm gonna be so mad. If the rumor about an event that involves Jason's resurrection is true, I want Lobdell to helm that.


This is an understatement. Jasons psyche? King can barely muster enough energy to write Jason with his actual personality let alone deep parts of his psyche. He has proved multiple times he doesnt know the first thing about the character. In his most notable moments, he writes Jason with characteristics that are not just 'a bit out of touch', but literally the *opposite* of Jasons actual characterization. Good lord. Hell to the No.

Now I don't mean to be a sour pickle, but considering the fact that Jason is typically left behind for (as you mentioned as well) batfam events, I find the idea of anyone within DC (outside of Lobdell) wanting to tackle Jason and his backstory or resurrection as far fetched at this point. There's never been any interest before, why start now. Especially if Tom Kings involved, this better be a silly rumor.

----------


## EMarie

Is there a King rumor? I haven't heard anything except speculation.

----------


## JasonTodd428

King is supposed to be writing something called Sanctuary, which is going to be a place superheroes can go for counseling. Sort of like the sessions Black Canary did in the YJ cartoon. Jason's name hasn't come up in connection with it officially that I know of so his involvement is pure speculation at this point. 

To be entirely honest this sort of book does lend itself better to the kind of things King writes than the standard issue superhero fare does. His writing tends toward the psychological and how events affect people. That being the case I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him handle Jason dealing with his PTSD that result from his death and resurrection. It could be the first time a writer actually may want to finally deal with his baggage instead of brushing it aside like they've done for years.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is there a King rumor? I haven't heard anything except speculation.


Not specifically. Just the timing of the event rumor that involves Jason and the Sanctuary announcement are too close to each other for comfort. They might not be related though as the tumblr source knew about the event long ago, but thought it was scrapped until now.

----------


## G-Potion

> His writing tends toward the psychological and how events affect people. That being the case I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him handle Jason dealing with his PTSD that result from his death and resurrection. It could be the first time a writer actually may want to finally deal with his baggage instead of brushing it aside like they've done for years.


Could be the case. But I have a suspicion that he'd ignore the the character's canon material and turn it into his own personal version of how death and PTSD should affect a guy. That's what I get from his other works anyway. If he wants a character to behave in one way, they will just have to bend.

----------


## EMarie

Honestly I feel like what Lobdell has shown of Jason's PTSD has been handled better than any of characters PTSD I've read. At least in the past few years. I definitely haven't read any resurrected characters being as affected. Usually it's business as usual as if their death just stopped them for a little while.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> This is an understatement. Jasons psyche? King can barely muster enough energy to write Jason with his actual personality let alone deep parts of his psyche. He has proved multiple times he doesnt know the first thing about the character. In his most notable moments, he writes Jason with characteristics that are not just 'a bit out of touch', but literally the *opposite* of Jasons actual characterization. Good lord. Hell to the No.
> 
> Now I don't mean to be a sour pickle, but considering the fact that Jason is typically left behind for (as you mentioned as well) batfam events, I find the idea of anyone within DC (outside of Lobdell) wanting to tackle Jason and his backstory or resurrection as far fetched at this point. There's never been any interest before, why start now. Especially if Tom Kings involved, this better be a silly rumor.


Yeah...I can't imagine King ever being interested in having to write Jason with any sort of care or as anything other than a comic relief. I doubt Jason is a character he'd choose to include in this Sanctuary stuff.

----------


## Katana500

> And if DC let Tom King handle Jason's psyche in Sanctuary I'm gonna be so mad. If the rumor about an event that involves Jason's resurrection is true, I want Lobdell to helm that.


whats the rumour?  I havent heard it  :Smile:

----------


## EMarie

> whats the rumour?  I havent heard it


There's a rumor that Jason is being set up for an "event" that deals with why and how he came back to life.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, I'm certain Jason will show up again in GCG again, and considering his role in it last time, I'm looking forward to what the book has to offer.


GCG has just 3 issues left, so I doubt that Jason will do much more than show up again in that book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If starring in a crossover means losing the current series

https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...61170943864832

Nah. I'm fine with Jason on his own corner of the DCU.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> GCG has just 3 issues left, so I doubt that Jason will do much more than show up again in that book.


If that's true than that's really disappointing. I've really enjoyed it so I hope that it somehow continues like Bombshells did.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Could be the case. But I have a suspicion that he'd ignore the the character's canon material and turn it into his own personal version of how death and PTSD should affect a guy. That's what I get from his other works anyway. If he wants a character to behave in one way, they will just have to bend.


It would be kind of difficult to ignore the characters canon material though as it pertains directly to his PTSD. As for the latter part of your post don't ALL characters bend to a writers will to some extent anyway and don't ALL writers have characters behave as they want them too? I like what King does with the characters he writes most of the time so I don't see why this distinction needs to be made. I know some people hate is work and that's your right but regardless of whether you like it or not I don't think he's doing anything different from any other writer.  :Confused:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If starring in a crossover means losing the current series
> 
> https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...61170943864832
> 
> Nah. I'm fine with Jason on his own corner of the DCU.


Yeah, I'm much happier with Jason off in his own corner of the DCU too. RHATO is the only consistent team book DC has out right now so they don't need to change anything. I do wish it was selling better but since I never expected DC to even give Jason any type of ongoing book to begin with I can live with the numbers.

----------


## G-Potion

> It would be kind of difficult to ignore the characters canon material though as it pertains directly to his PTSD. As for the latter part of your post don't ALL characters bend to a writers will to some extent anyway and don't ALL writers have characters behave as they want them too? I like what King does with the characters he writes most of the time so I don't see why this distinction needs to be made. I know some people hate is work and that's your right but regardless of whether you like it or not I don't think he's doing anything different from any other writer.


Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant canon material as in the way the character behaves canonically. And yes, all characters bend to a writer will, but as you said, to an extent. It's subjective of course, and with extreme saltyness because King did ignore how Jason generally behaves in other titles, or even logically should behave, to have a loud and goofy batkid as well as to get back at the fans, but King's writing often gives me the impression that he pushes a specific theme first and mold his characters to fit in. Whereas as Lobdell does it, I feel it's more rooted in organic character interaction and development.

----------


## RedBird

> GCG has just 3 issues left, so I doubt that Jason will do much more than show up again in that book.


Ah well thats a shame, the book itself has been pretty entertaining for me. I hope it, like bombshells, gets a continuation series, Jason or no.

----------


## magpieM

I'm also expecting future White Knight issues. Jason was only an easter egg at the beginning. But this series is popular and extended to more volumes. It seems that the writer has decided to add more story to him.

----------


## Aahz

> Ah well thats a shame, the book itself has been pretty entertaining for me. I hope it, like bombshells, gets a continuation series, Jason or no.


I actually wondering how long Bomnshells will continue, that series seems also not do much better.

Injsutice 2 seems at least to do well digitally, so I'm wondering if they will drag it out. Or create otherwise a follow up.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ah well thats a shame, the book itself has been pretty entertaining for me. I hope it, like bombshells, gets a continuation series, Jason or no.


Only three issues in to solve every-thing that was set in motion for the big final standing that is coming?

They`re shooting at their own feet.

----------


## RedBird

Commission of Two Face, Batgirl and Red Hood by Elliot Fernandez

----------


## Kalethas31

jason and artemis

----------


## G-Potion

> Commission of Two Face, Batgirl and Red Hood by Elliot Fernandez


The idea is... interesting. Nice art though!  :EEK!:

----------


## G-Potion

Since no one has posted it here yet, Tyler Kirkham art for a con.



Of all the robins battle art, Dick vs Jason seems to be the most prevalent I think, even if it has been a while since they fought.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Probably unintentional, but is a deadringer of the sequence drawn by Carlo Barberi for Outsiders #44

----------


## G-Potion

> Probably unintentional, but is a deadringer of the sequence drawn by Carlo Barberi for Outsiders #44


Yep that immediately reminded me of the page you posted.

----------


## G-Potion

Bombshells makes me crave some father-son moment. This looks like it could happen right after RHATO#18. (Not sure if there's anything shippy about it that I missed, was too lazy to read all the words. @kiwi: help!  :Embarrassment: ).

From http://vagusel.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

I could only get bits of it but from what I can understand, its basically Bruce telling Jason that he can stay as long as he likes and that he always has a home here and Jason hugging him and saying he knows and that 'this' has always been home. I think he even calls Bruce old man :P.

The rest is a narrators voice, saying this is Jason Todd, once a Robin now Red Hood, a leader of the outlaws and such, saying a farewell to his father, and rejoining his teammates. He may be young with (I think) a lot of time ahead of him, but that whenever he looks back, he always has a place to call home. 

This is very generalized but you get the picture.

----------


## G-Potion

Cool! Thanks, Red! The artist tagged this as Brujay so I was afraid I missed something in the text. But you definitely saved my lazy ass because I absolutely didn't finish the narrator's bit.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

Man, look at those fan books. I'm in awe at what the Asian fans are capable of putting out.

----------


## RedBird

Woah, that is one thick book. Where do people buy this stuff? I'd love to be able to purchase these fan books but I get the feeling that they only exist on platforms that I'm not even aware exist. Only found out about lofter a few weeks ago.

----------


## G-Potion

For this particular book you can try contacting this page . I read on weibo that they accept PayPal. Book content is in Korean though.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Commission of Two Face, Batgirl and Red Hood by Elliot Fernandez


The Batgirl/Red Hood pairing always kind of interested me.

----------


## G-Potion

> The Batgirl/Red Hood pairing always kind of interested me.


I don't know. I'm kinda turned off because of the way Batgirl has been passed around among the family. And I didn't think the way it was handled in BRE was good either.

----------


## G-Potion

You guys liking any of these choices?

*10 Actors Who Should Play Red Hood In The DC Extended Universe*

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oof, those are some questionable choices (Aaron Paul, really?). The only one I like is Egerton and that just because he has proven himself on Kingsman.

----------


## Aahz

> Oof, those are some questionable choices (Aaron Paul, really?). The only one I like is Egerton and that just because he has proven himself on Kingsman.


Have to agree, and I'm not sure if Egerton playing a very similar character on Kingsman wouldn't kind of speak against him.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I don't know. I'm kinda turned off because of the way Batgirl has been passed around among the family. And I didn't think the way it was handled in BRE was good either.


There were moments in the Eternal story arcs that I liked. When they went to Brazil I liked their interactions. I'd like to just see them bond more as friends in general.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> You guys liking any of these choices?
> 
> *10 Actors Who Should Play Red Hood In The DC Extended Universe*


I'd go with Richard Madden. He's not listed, but I think he'd be good.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> There were moments in the Eternal story arcs that I liked. When they went to Brazil I liked their interactions. I'd like to just see them bond more as friends in general.


I have absolutely no problems with Jason and Barbara being friends or bonding as such. What I don't want to see is them in a romantic relationship.

----------


## oasis1313

> I have absolutely no problems with Jason and Barbara being friends or bonding as such. What I don't want to see is them in a romantic relationship.


Jason deserves better than Dick's leftovers.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Bombshells makes me crave some father-son moment. This looks like it could happen right after RHATO#18. (Not sure if there's anything shippy about it that I missed, was too lazy to read all the words. @kiwi: help! ).
> 
> From http://vagusel.lofter.com


Whoops Red caught it before me  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Not shippy at all but very cute comic!

----------


## kiwiliko

Happy year of the dog everyone!
@ https://twitter.com/shikabe37

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I have absolutely no problems with Jason and Barbara being friends or bonding as such. What I don't want to see is them in a romantic relationship.


I wouldn't be opposed to it becoming romantic, but that would be way down the line.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jason deserves better than Dick's leftovers.


Kind of a dumb way of looking at it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Happy year of the dog everyone!
> @ https://twitter.com/shikabe37


Niceee! Still haven't figured out why Jason and Dick are so pissed. But these four together would be so much fun.  :Big Grin: 

@kiwi: Do you have plan for a New Year fanart, kiwi? There are still 2 weeks left.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Kind of a dumb way of looking at it.


Agree. They are their own characters and shouldn't be regarded only as Dick's anything. Same with Roy and Kory.

----------


## G-Potion

Wha I have never seen this before how come

https://twitter.com/BatCreators

----------


## G-Potion

from http://ankalimes-trash.tumblr.com/




> I, uh. like to imagine he would check up on the cow whenever he was in the manor after Damian died…





He would...  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

Some say Jason fails to fit in with the Batman mythos due to how unstable he was at least in the beginning and he fails even worse now that he's back as the gun wielding Red Hood by using guns Batman's hated weapon and the former identity of the Joker. He spits in the face of all that Batman stands for. I don't hate him at least when he's not going to be written as a psycho any thoughts on those who say that because of these factors he doesn't fit in the mythos. But if I were to do him I would discard the guns for combat knives and rename him Red Knight just to make some people happy if anyone can be happy.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## The Dying Detective

> 


Makes me wish he called him self the Red Knight to avoid being hated upon by haters. I like his character plenty everything I just posted was just someone's opinion though it has some facts.

----------


## G-Potion

> Makes me wish he called him self the Red Knight to avoid being hated upon by haters. I like his character plenty everything I just posted was just someone's opinion though it has some facts.


I have yet to see the reason for hate. This is just some personal project Soy does, it doesn't push any buttons. About the opinions you came across, um what are the facts in them if I might ask?

----------


## Barbatos666

Man I really wish he'd take that name and costume. That's wicked cool.

----------


## G-Potion

> Man I really wish he'd take that name and costume. That's wicked cool.


Personally if Jason is gonna take up any costume, I'd prefer this.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I have yet to see the reason for hate. This is just some personal project Soy does, it doesn't push any buttons. About the opinions you came across, um what are the facts in them if I might ask?


Well it's just basic Batman 101 he hates guns and killing Red Hood does all of the above and some feel he should not have any association with the Batfamily that really the general basis for the hate I've found. And to minimize the hate even more I would change his guns to combat knives.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well it's just basic Batman 101 he hates guns and killing Red Hood does all of the above and some feel he should not have any association with the Batfamily that really the general basis for the hate I've found.


Fitting in with the family is different than fitting in with the mythos though. Opinions might vary with the former, but there's no reason why killling/using guns renounces him from being a part of the mythos when he's not the only character who does it. He's the black sheep of the family, that already grants him a place in there, regardless of how well he gets along with them.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Fitting in with the family is different than fitting in with the mythos though. Opinions might vary with the former, but there's no reason why killling/using guns renounces him from being a part of the mythos when he's not the only character who does it. He's the black sheep of the family, that already grants him a place in there, regardless of how well he gets along with them.


Well in regards to that it would make Jason more of a villain though Huntress continues to be an associate and she uses lethal force but not guns. It's kind of a double standard issue I see with fans really.

----------


## G-Potion

> And to minimize the hate even more I would change his guns to combat knives.


While I'd prefer that he uses his knifes and other weapons more often, it's purely because they make cooler fight sequences. I don't believe that would make people hate him less though. The point is that he still kills when he needs to, so the means of weapons makes little different. Actually, knife might potentially imply a pleasure in killing due to its intimacy, so... I don't know if it's gonna change anyone's opinion for the better.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> While I'd prefer that he uses his knifes and other weapons more often, it's purely because they make cooler fight sequences. I don't believe that would make people hate him less though. The point is that he still kills when he needs to, so the means of weapons makes little different. Actually, knife might potentially imply a pleasure in killing due to its intimacy, so... I don't know if it's gonna change anyone's opinion for the better.


Hmm never thought of it that way I was only thinking about how one guy says that because Jason uses guns he spits on all that Batman stands for so I chose combat knives just to maintain some of that edginess Jason has become known for. Yeah but if he renounces killing it would help.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well in regards to that it would make Jason more of a villain though Huntress continues to be an associate and she uses lethal force but not guns. It's kind of a double standard issue I see with fans really.


But why would it make him more of a villain? Even in UTRH where he is a direct antagonist, people are for the most part sympathetic with him.

There will always be people who hate the thing you like, but generally I think Jason is very well liked, if his popularity with mainstream audience is any indication.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hmm never thought of it that way I was only thinking about how one guy says that because Jason uses guns he spits on all that Batman stands for so I chose combat knives just to maintain some of that edginess Jason has become known for. Yeah but if he renounces killing it would help.


Not sure what it would help but certainly not the character. Even if they evolve you still need that essence that keeps as themself and no one else. For Red Hood, his 'do what Batman won't' is that selling point. Take it away, you appease the haters but how many are they compared to the fans who love Red Hood for who he is? Certainly not a lot.

----------


## Fergus

> Personally if Jason is gonna take up any costume, I'd prefer this.


Nah this is too fussy and just over kill. Even Slade Wilson doesn't pack that much and a ninja? This looks like everything was thrown at it and a half jacket?
Soy's White Knight design is much better though I'm not sure about a cape

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm just baffled at the whole "hate" Soy's designs are supposedly getting. Everywhere they're posted they receive only praise.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> But why would it make him more of a villain? Even in UTRH where he is a direct antagonist, people are for the most part sympathetic with him.
> 
> There will always be people who hate the thing you like, but generally I think Jason is very well liked, if his popularity with mainstream audience is any indication.


Considering how Jason is a downloadable character in Injustice 2 I would say he has considerable star power. Though how aggressive he is depends on who is writing him and if the writer hates him you should expect a kill happy psycho. I think some people hate Jason because of how he was rather kill happy as Robin but he only got a little better after becoming the Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

> Considering how Jason is a downloadable character in Injustice 2 I would say he has considerable star power. Though how aggressive he is depends on who is writing him and if the writer hates him you should expect a kill happy psycho. I think some people hate Jason because of how he was rather kill happy as Robin but he only got a little better after becoming the Red Hood.


What Lobdell has been doing with Red Hood is a great balancing act. He gets to keeps that morality and belief while still being self aware enough to see both sides of the argument and to continue "fine tuning" his method.

----------


## Fergus

> Well in regards to that it would make Jason more of a villain though Huntress continues to be an associate and she uses lethal force but not guns. It's kind of a double standard issue I see with fans really.


Jason shouldn't be a part of the Batfamily. His biggest are those who liked UTRH where he isn't part of the family. DC is trying to eat their cake and have which results in Bruce looking like a hypocrite and Red looking tamed.
I like his guns they are part of his visual aesthetic and indicates where he stands and how he feels should feel] about Batman.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nah this is too fussy and just over kill. Even Slade Wilson doesn't pack that much and a ninja? This looks like everything was thrown at it and a half jacket?
> Soy's White Knight design is much better though I'm not sure about a cape


Actually aside from the All Blades which are usually hidden, he did pack that many weapons on person in his Future's End issue.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason shouldn't be a part of the Batfamily. His biggest are those who liked UTRH where he isn't part of the family. DC is trying to eat their cake and have which results in Bruce looking like a hypocrite and Red looking tamed.
> I like his guns they are part of his visual aesthetic and indicates where he stands and how he feels should feel] about Batman.


Depend on how you define "a part of the Batfamily" really. Like he shouldn't be considered Bruce's son at all? Also, seeing as how Batman used to work with worse people, renoucing Jason would make him even a bigger hypocrite.

If you mean, his working with the family should be limited, yes, it is already the case. Could be more or less depending on personal tastes.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What Lobdell has been doing with Red Hood is a great balancing act. He gets to keeps that morality and belief while still being self aware enough to see both sides of the argument and to continue "fine tuning" his method.


I agree Mr. Lobdell has found his stride with Jason which is surprising as he's a 90's kind of guy. And at this stage, Jason reminds me more of Solf J. Kimblee an amoral killer but surprisingly not defined by being crazy but by being cerebral. It kind of odd how people still hate him regardless of Mr. Lobdell's good work but hate is irrational.

----------


## G-Potion

> Considering how Jason is a downloadable character in Injustice 2 I would say he has considerable star power. Though how aggressive he is depends on who is writing him and if the writer hates him you should expect a kill happy psycho. I think some people hate Jason because of how he was rather kill happy as Robin but he only got a little better after becoming the Red Hood.


Kill happy as Robin? There are so many misinformation about his time as Robin that people are just too eager to grab onto it for reasons to hate him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I just want to add that after six years, Jason is a core part of the batfamily now, whether you like it or not.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Kill happy as Robin? There are so many misinformation about his time as Robin that people are just too eager to grab onto it for reasons to hate him.


Fans are funny animals they tend to see one thing but not the greater scope a problem that affects most the writers in the comic book industry making it even less respectable. I also forgot to mention that he was rather unstable which in many people's eyes make him evne elss worthy of associating himself with Batman even as Robin since he lacks the mental capacity for hie role but realistically neither should Dick or Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree Mr. Lobdell has found his stride with Jason which is surprising as he's a 90's kind of guy. And at this stage, Jason reminds me more of Solf J. Kimblee an amoral killer but surprisingly not defined by being crazy but by being cerebral. It kind of odd how people still hate him regardless of Mr. Lobdell's good work but hate is irrational.


Well the hate for Lobdell went back to the N52 and his portrayal of Roy/Kory. Even to this date, some people have kneejerk reaction whenever a tiny hint of N52 still being canon appear in his Rebirth RHATO. But if you haven't read his recent, very candid interview, I'd strongly recommend it as it gives a lot of insight to how working in the industry is like, and some decisions are just out of his hands.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well the hate for Lobdell went back to the N52 and his portrayal of Roy/Kory. Even to this date, some people have kneejerk reaction whenever a tiny hint of N52 still being canon appear in his Rebirth RHATO. But if you haven't read his recent, very candid interview, I'd strongly recommend it as it gives a lot of insight to how working in the industry is like, and some decisions are just out of his hands.


It definitely is more complex than what a lot people say when it comes to working in the comic book industry especially in the Big Two where anything and everything can go wrong because Central Command is kind of incompetent and continues to be incompetent. Really makes me question the survival of the Big Two in general they've held onto life and limb for so long but it looks like they might fall. And no wonder Red Hood and the Outlaws tanked hard in the first volume.

----------


## G-Potion

> Fans are funny animals they tend to see one thing but not the greater scope a problem that affects most the writers in the comic book industry making it even less respectable. I also forgot to mention that he was rather unstable which in many people's eyes make him evne elss worthy of associating himself with Batman even as Robin since he lacks the mental capacity for hie role but realistically neither should Dick or Tim.


I've seen a lot of fans who never read Robin!Jason, buying into DC's victim blaming propaganda, say Jason was a bad robin. I've also seen as many fans who trash the n52 RHATO without actually reading the books. What can you do.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've seen a lot of fans who never read Robin!Jason, buying into DC's victim blaming propaganda, say Jason was a bad robin. I've also seen as many fans who trash the n52 RHATO without actually reading the books. What can you do.


I've actually heard word that some fans believe that killing off Jason was a horrible idea so not everyone buys into the victim mentality and some read Jason's Robin tenure just deduce it based on how Jason killed people the most notable incident was that rapist and say that he doesn't understand Batman's mission is one of justice not revenge. Admittedly I've never read volume one of Red Hood and the Outlaws and I kind of have no interest in it base don what I heard but I am more than happy to read volume 2.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You know, we dodged a bullet with Bendis taking over Superman.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You know, we dodged a bullet with Bendis taking over Superman.


I'm more of a DC guy so I don't operate by sect so either character who got him was going to lose but if he is true to his word it could be a win.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You know, we dodged a bullet with Bendis taking over Superman.


Yeah, we did at that. I'm glad for that actually. Unfortunately, for me I'm currently reading both Action and Superman so this news still sucks.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah, we did at that. I'm glad for that actually. Unfortunately, for me I'm currently reading both Action and Superman so this news still sucks.


Were Action and Superman handled by one creative team prior?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Were Action and Superman handled by one creative team prior?


Nope they were handled by two different teams.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nope they were handled by two different teams.


Thanks! Wow, so two teams out to let Bendis in. I hope their next projects get announced soon.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Niceee! Still haven't figured out why Jason and Dick are so pissed. But these four together would be so much fun. 
> 
> @kiwi: Do you have plan for a New Year fanart, kiwi? There are still 2 weeks left.


Oh I'm very ready to spend the next week looking up dog and food references  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Any plans on your side?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Thanks! Wow, so two teams out to let Bendis in. I hope their next projects get announced soon.


They were doing so well though I know people can get burn out but Dendis getting so much to do make sit more likely he will burn out regardless of coming in fresh. But yeah I hope they get something good too.

----------


## Aahz

> I've actually heard word that some fans believe that killing off Jason was a horrible idea so not everyone buys into the victim mentality and some read Jason's Robin tenure just deduce it based on how Jason killed people the most notable incident was that rapist and say that he doesn't understand Batman's mission is one of justice not revenge.


The rapist wasn't the most notable one, he was (if Jason did it) the only one.
And what many people tend to forget is that is that Batman wasn't much better during that run.

- In Batman 414 you had him brutally beat up a guy, of whom he thought that he was a serial killer (he wasn't).

- Ten Night of the Beast he trapped KGBeast and left him to stave (Ok that one was retconned later)

- in the Cult he actually killed someone (while he was under the control of Deacon Blackfire), and later let Blackfire get killed by his own men

It was in general a very dark a gritty run.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The rapist wasn't the most notable one, he was (if Jason did it) the only one.
> And what many people tend to forget is that is that Batman wasn't much better during that run.
> 
> - In Batman 414 you had him brutally beat up a guy, of whom he thought that he was a serial killer (he wasn't).
> 
> - Ten Night of the Beast he trapped KGBeast and left him to stave (Ok that one was retconned later)
> 
> - in the Cult he actually killed someone (while he was under the control of Deacon Blackfire), and later let Blackfire get killed by his own men
> 
> It was in general a very dark a gritty run.


I say it's the fault of rose coloured glasses that and some people probably buy into the idea that Robin should be there to balance Bamtna's darkness and maybe just blame Jason for it all since he didn't balance him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh I'm very ready to spend the next week looking up dog and food references 
> Any plans on your side?


Dog and food! I can already tell I'm gonna love this one!  :Embarrassment: 

I sure have! Pretty excited for this one because New Year palette is something I've rarely done! But on the other hand, going for a Lion Dance, the details are already killing me.

----------


## Aioros22

> I say it's the fault of rose coloured glasses that and some people probably buy into the idea that Robin should be there to balance Bamtna's darkness and maybe just blame Jason for it all since he didn't balance him.


Rose tinted glasses or people not really following the run. The Garzonas incident was and remains a pivotal plot point exactly because Jason wasn`t the murdering type despite his background and believing in in a somewhat harsher justice for some people...like Garzonas, whose victims the Law of Gotham failed to protect. Despite that, he decided to play by their rules and it didn`t work. That`s why the plot point shines and stands as the single best thing Starlin did in his brief run. 

Trouble is, Dick Grayson fans and Jason naysayers at large grabbed that story like ammo and used to their advantage. Now, Starlin as we know, hated the Robin concept and whilst not murdering people, he also wrote Jason using rifles twice, which only added up for those who nitpicked what they desired to suit their arguments. You can obviously say the same for his Batman being a shoe in for the Miller prototype but why would you pick on the big guy, eh? 

Despite how Silver-agey it felt, Aazh left one out for Batman. Jason also stopped Batman from beating Joker to death when he believed Selina had been murdered.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Rose tinted glasses or people not really following the run. The Garzonas incident was and remains a pivotal plot point exactly because Jason wasn`t the murdering type despite his background and believing in in a somewhat harsher justice for some people...like Garzonas, whose victims the Law of Gotham failed to protect. Despite that, he decided to play by their rules and it didn`t work. That`s why the plot point shines and stands as the single best thing Starlin did in his brief run. 
> 
> Trouble is, Dick Grayson fans and Jason naysayers at large grabbed that story like ammo and used to their advantage. Now, Starlin as we know, hated the Robin concept and whilst not murdering people, he also wrote Jason using rifles twice, which only added up for those who nitpicked what they desired to suit their arguments. You can obviously say the same for his Batman being a shoe in for the Miller prototype but why would you pick on the big guy, eh? 
> 
> Despite how Silver-agey it felt, Aazh left one out for Batman. Jason also stopped Batman from beating Joker to death when he believed Selina had been murdered.


A guy I knew considered the Jason Robin run one of the worse selling moments in Batman history I concede that Jason is an unusual character in the generally black and white DC Universe. He definitely challenges the overly idealistic views of Batman and even actually provides a balance to the narrative. And that's not fair when Batman was at times just as bad as the Frank Miller Batman. And I am surprised that Jason in the Silver Age actually tried to stop Batman from going too far.

----------


## Aahz

> Rose tinted glasses or people not really following the run. The Garzonas incident was and remains a pivotal plot point exactly because Jason wasn`t the murdering type despite his background and believing in in a somewhat harsher justice for some people...like Garzonas, whose victims the Law of Gotham failed to protect. Despite that, he decided to play by their rules and it didn`t work. That`s why the plot point shines and stands as the single best thing Starlin did in his brief run.


Starlins run was in general a lot about Batman failing, that's a big difference between his run and almost every other run from that time.

- The Serial Killer I mentioned earlier was later caught by Batman, but went free because of a technicality and was than killed by the sister of one of his victims
- In Ten Nights of the Beast, he went the the first time up against a villain who was stronger than him
- In The Cult he was the first time broken by a villain
- And Garzonas was also someone he couldn't stop




> Despite how Silver-agey it felt, Aazh left one out for Batman. Jason also stopped Batman from beating Joker to death when he believed Selina had been murdered.


That wasn't in Starlins Run.
But in Starlins Run he actually wanted to rescue Blackfire.

----------


## G-Potion

New DC-fan film featuring Red Hood and Arsenal.




> "RED" launches the beginning of what will be one of the largest fan made DC Universes to date! Stay up to date on "The Absent Knight" series on Facebook & Instagram to not miss out on any of the action.
> 
> Gotham is in disarray. Batman is gone, crime is rampant, and hope seems lost. Nightwing and Robin do their best to fill the shoes of their mentor, but when a mysterious figure begins killing in Batman's name, even they aren't enough to protect the city. Haunted by the loss of his best friend, this killer brings Roy Harper to Gotham to investigate. In all the trials he's faced, none could have prepared him for this.






Quite dark, and has some pretty chilling elements. Hope they continue with this.

----------


## Aioros22

@t Aazh

Ah, I believed you meant the era in general, not just Starlin. I stand corrected. 

@t G-Potion

Another fan film for my list. Liking the athmosphere in the intro already but I need to see the whole thing. Any news yet on the "Nigthwing Series" Red hood?

----------


## SpentShrimp

Has Helena as Huntress ever killed? Not too familiar with the character?

----------


## G-Potion

> @t G-Potion
> 
> Another fan film for my list. Liking the athmosphere in the intro already but I need to see the whole thing. Any news yet on the "Nigthwing Series" Red hood?


Not specifically, but both the Red Hood actor and the camera/light guy posted this on their instagram just yesterday. I assume production is still on-going.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep, it's the hood. Note the tag, interesting....

----------


## G-Potion

Also look out for these as well!

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Aaaaa Soy pleeaseee!!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Aaaaa Soy pleeaseee!!


Is this ever going to be used? I like it.

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## The Dying Detective

> Not sure what it would help but certainly not the character. Even if they evolve you still need that essence that keeps as themself and no one else. For Red Hood, his 'do what Batman won't' is that selling point. Take it away, you appease the haters but how many are they compared to the fans who love Red Hood for who he is? Certainly not a lot.


True that's always a bit of a problem but isn't' that also Helena Bertinelli's selling point as well that's she's willing to 'do what Batman won't do'? So what are people complaning about then? Or did Helena drop that?

----------


## Tony Stark

> Not sure what it would help but certainly not the character. Even if they evolve you still need that essence that keeps as themself and no one else. For Red Hood, his 'do what Batman won't' is that selling point. Take it away, you appease the haters but how many are they compared to the fans who love Red Hood for who he is? Certainly not a lot.


Well said. I hope Jason always uses guns and is willing to do what Batman won't.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is this ever going to be used? I like it.


Seems to be a personal project, but one Soy has been working on for a while so who knows. Counting Red Hood Ninja, with that amount of output, he might as well make a pitch to DC. Although, Lobdell has hinted about a future storyline that involves Jason getting mistaken to be Batman so yeah, prime opportunity to use this costume.

----------


## G-Potion

> True that's always a bit of a problem but isn't' that also Helena Bertinelli's selling point as well that's she's willing to 'do what Batman won't do'? So what are people complaning about then? Or did Helena drop that?


I think people don't mind much because she doesn't have that baggage of being the Robin that died, being in core family, being in conflict with Batman in an intimate way which ended up making audience question Batman's method, nor did she reach the popularity that Jason has.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Seems to be a personal project, but one Soy has been working on for a while so who knows. Counting Red Hood Ninja, with that amount of output, he might as well make a pitch to DC. Although, Lobdell has hinted about a future storyline that involves Jason getting mistaken to be Batman so yeah, prime opportunity to use this costume.


Agreed this would make for an interesting story and I guess one would have to count on corporate synergy for this design to be used hopefully there is some people have the brains to accept the pitch.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think people don't mind much because she doesn't have that baggage of being the Robin that died, being in core family, being in conflict with Batman in an intimate way which ended up making audience question Batman's method, nor did she reach the popularity that Jason has.


One guy who believes that Jason should have stayed dead as a reminder that Batman's job is serious business that requires people with mental preparedness which he feels that Tim Drake and Dick Grayson all have. Because they come from more stable environments than Jason who in his view due his instability fails to fit into the Batman mythos. I don't buy it when Batman himself comes from broken home with only Alfred to tend to him. Any who is that why people have no problems with Huntress? Because if they try to use everything from his gun usage to his willingness to kill to justify why he should stay dead that complete nonsense.

----------


## Aahz

> One guy who believes that Jason should have stayed dead as a reminder that Batman's job is serious business that requires people with mental preparedness which he feels that Tim Drake and Dick Grayson all have. Because they come from more stable environments than Jason who in his view due his instability fails to fit into the Batman mythos. I don't buy it when Batman himself comes from broken home with only Alfred to tend to him. Any who is that why people have no problems with Huntress? Because if they try to use everything from his gun usage to his willingness to kill to justify why he should stay dead that complete nonsense.


If yot keep in Mind that almost every Batfamily member died or was crippled at some point, you can't really make arguiment for Jason to stay ddead.

When it comes to Huntress, she is simply to obscure for most people to care about.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If yot keep in Mind that almost every Batfamily member died or was crippled at some point, you can't really make argument for Jason to stay dead.
> 
> When it comes to Huntress, she is simply to obscure for most people to care about.


Noted but that guy Shawn James likes Huntress and obscure female characters in general it must blind him to his hypocrisy.

----------


## G-Potion

Art time! 

Want to eat this sky...

https://twitter.com/__DangD

----------


## G-Potion

Komusou Jason still alive and kicking yeeee

http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Art by Eliot Fernandez

----------


## G-Potion

http://askhungryeren.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

More Ninja!

http://askhungryeren.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Bruce keeps getting hammered by Alfred`s Sass-Fu.

----------


## Aioros22

http://tuluxi.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

> If yot keep in Mind that almost every Batfamily member died or was crippled at some point, you can't really make arguiment for Jason to stay ddead.
> 
> When it comes to Huntress, she is simply to obscure for most people to care about.


That reminded me just recently a flashback scene in Nigthwing



Of course, it adds up to Dick`s early role as boy hostage. Still, it was justified by writers who grew up with him as "simpler times". I have no qualms with Jason`s rebel tag as long it`s something deeply ingrained in narrative (i.e, what triggered it) and not a tag simply used the way it was for some 15 years with surfasse level negative connoction to contrast him from others. 

Feelings on Starlin aside, even he gave a reason for that trigger and it`s a solid and valid argument to read about.

----------


## Aioros22

I keep looking at those commision (I guess) artwork from Soy regarding Jason as Red hood ninja and Batman and can`t shake the feeling it would work wonders in animated form, especially with Star Wars finding a new lease of life these days. The darker son who ends taking the teacher`s place, maybe after the later falls at Joker`s hands or at an ambush by saving someone else. It absolutely writes itself. 

Soy is a giftsend :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

red ronin

----------


## G-Potion

> red ronin


Daaaaarnn can't wait to see this cleaned up and colored. Hopefully Soy'll make it _move a bit_ as well.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Haha kaiten kenbu rokuren.

----------


## G-Potion

Juggling.

https://twitter.com/lemon_mango1

----------


## G-Potion

I can see the relevance. And Artemis is holding him by the collar haha.

https://twitter.com/lemon_mango1

----------


## G-Potion

Bombshells #24 concluded beautifully. Might have to go back and read from #1.  :Embarrassment: 

Some of my favourite panels.

----------


## RedBird

Update

----------


## G-Potion

> Update


He's working fast. Means I can stay up till it is colored.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Ha! I'm still awake!


https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...448833/photo/1

----------


## magpieM

> http://tuluxi.tumblr.com/


Oh that's hilarious. But it's not proper to show it in the workplace, Officer Grayson...

----------


## magpieM

> Ha! I'm still awake!
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...448833/photo/1


I love it! I sincerely hope that his new design could be used in more official, bigger event for Jason. His efforts and passion  for this character totally deserve it.

Just one more personal opinion: Wouldn't that be 'neater' if he get rid of the 'jacket'? Just show his shape

----------


## G-Potion

> I love it! I sincerely hope that his new design could be used in more official, bigger event for Jason. His efforts and passion  for this character totally deserve it.
> 
> Just one more personal opinion: Wouldn't that be 'neater' if he get rid of the 'jacket'? Just show his shape


I guess since the jacket is such an iconic element for him. And aesthetic wise, it acts as the white accent to make the design stand out more I think.

----------


## G-Potion

JJMK

----------


## G-Potion

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## SpentShrimp

> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


I wouldn't be opposed to a manga art style run on Red Hood and Nightwing.

----------


## Aioros22

Manga or Korean style, black and white or colored, just do a one shot like this. 

DC needs to branch out to other characters the treatment Batman gets with non superhero artists who obviously like them. Batman is an _easy_ choice given by how big an icon in comics he is but far from the only one.

----------


## Aioros22

Red Hood and The Outlaws #21 by Guillem March



or Bizarro crouching so Superman and the building can show up.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm actually excited for Superman to show up in RHATO. It's been a while.

----------


## RedBird

ayinggg

----------


## G-Potion

> ayinggg


Love how this artist does the inking!

----------


## G-Potion

Aaaa this comic!!

biw6.tumblr.com (deactivated)

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Red Hood and The Outlaws #21 by Guillem March
> 
> 
> 
> or Bizarro crouching so Superman and the building can show up.


So I guess they're just spoiled Superman will show up at the Iceberg Lounge.

And I took the plunge and pre ordered Ikemen's Jason.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm actually excited for Superman to show up in RHATO. It's been a while.


And we will see if found out about the Outlaws visiting the Fortress of Solitude.

----------


## Aioros22

Man, found a wealth of Jason and Outlaws related artwork and I`ll post along the Windows I got. 

http://soccer.sina.com.hk/p/weibo/co...34200052714704


http://nanihoosartblog.tumblr.com/image/163520829937


https://nanihoo.deviantart.com/art/Rusty-Cage-629162914

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.weibo.com/1770102492/DDF...d1517954034179
Nightwing and Redhood Assassin's Creed cosplay



medertaab:  Nightwing and Red Hood unmasked" commission


Nightwing vs Red Hood by Dan Mora

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nightwing vs Red Hood by Dan Mora


Isn't this the full pic of that teaser posted here a while back?

EDIT:




> Dan Mora art from... something.
> 
> Attachment 59886



Yep. Mystery Solved.

----------


## Aioros22

https://twitter.com/dnlstnfb/status/729681341709606912


https://www.weibo.com/1923290484/Buz...d1517954532604


https://www.**********.com/artwork/NKaLb
[IMG]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/003/905/974/large/ren-wei-pan-img-20161106-170728.jpg?1478424852[/IMG]

----------


## Aioros22

> Isn't this the full pic of that teaser posted here a while back?
> 
> 
> Yep. Mystery Solved.


Good catch. I didn`t even remembered that preview  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> Man, found a wealth of Jason and Outlaws related artwork and I`ll post along the Windows I got.


Keep them comin'! Need these to tide me over until DC gives us something.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> Yep. Mystery Solved.


Love how well this came out. And good catch, Dark!

----------


## G-Potion

Letter to Batman by PTimm

DC should let Jason mingle with Gotham underground more often.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/lemon_mango1

Looks OP.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/lemon_mango1

This should happen in comics. Or did it?

----------


## Aioros22

*spoilers:*
 Gotham City Garage is out and Jason appears in the last showdown but not on the side of the angels. He`s shown leading his own Hoods to flank the Garage - "Missed me ladies?" and fights both Dinah (now the heir of the Demon) and Green Arrow. Love that he is there and lasting longer than the likes of Lobo and Adam but how I wish he would pull a Stone Cold on Luthor 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> *spoilers:*
>  Gotham City Garage is out and Jason appears in the last showdown but not on the side of the angels. He`s shown leading his own Hoods to flank the Garage - "Missed me ladies?" and fights both Dinah (now the heir of the Demon) and Green Arrow. Love that he is there and lasting longer than the likes of Lobo and Adam but how I wish he would pull a Stone Cold on Luthor 
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Me too, but, well after realizing the series only had like 2-3 issues left, this outcome was expected. The longer the series, the more exploration of side characters and such, but alas, thats not the case here. I have to say though, the art for the past two issues has looked more rushed than usual, is the series getting a last few issues huzzah before being 'technically' cancelled. I mean compared to bombshells, this was painfully short.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

*spoilers:*
 Pretty telling that they`re rushing in to allow the team to close shop which is always bad bussiness to me. Something like this should _never_ be wrapped up in just three issues. Look at how many issues it took to take down Bruce and the Flash and how dismissive Adam and Lobo, the "big guns" of Luthor were threated. It does no good for DC to publish such a rushed job or the creative team. that for whatever valid reason it may that comes from the Office - like sales, can`t really feel like giving a damn anymore because the world building and the whole composition is now ruined. 

Like really, give them six more issues to at least compose a last trade for the collection, you morons. The Money you may not make now could be made later on in translating the material in another format like an animated series/movie or game. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aahz

Since GCG and Bombshells are both about the DCs female heros, I think we can allready be happy with what we got. And lets just hope that we get something similar in Injustice (or maybe even in the main continuity...).

----------


## RedBird

> Since GCG and Bombshells are both about the DCs female heros, I think we can allready be happy with what we got. And lets just hope that we get something similar in Injustice (or maybe even in the main continuity...).


Of course, I mean thats the general idea behind both of them right, one giant limelight for the female characters of dc. Tis why the treatment Jason received in Bombshells was so damn cool. The series has a female focus and it was great as it was, the writers didn't have to gimme that _'good Jason content'_, but they did anyway, and I appreciate it.

Still like I said last time too, with or without Jason, I kinda wish GCG had gotten as good a go as Bombshells did. I really liked this reinterpretation of the world, kinda wanted to see more characters show up.

Also, question for the lot o ya, I only consistently collect like 2-3 monthly titles, (with the rest being on and off) so its hard for me to tell if this is a large scale pattern, but does anyone know why the hell rhato has had a few 5 week release schedules lately? I'm getting more impatient waiting for the title month to month.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Also, question for the lot o ya, I only consistently collect like 2-3 monthly titles, (with the rest being on and off) so its hard for me to tell if this is a large scale pattern, but does anyone know why the hell rhato has had a few 5 week release schedules lately? I'm getting more impatient waiting for the title month to month.


It's because there are a few months in the year that have had five Wednesdays in them and DC tends to release mainly Annuals on those fifth Wednesdays instead of regular issues. This causes monthly issues to be thrown off their normal 4 week release schedule. Last month was one such month and the one before that was in November. There's nothing sinister going on with it nor is it something that only happens to RHATO.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep, like JasonTodd428 said. Just look forward to second Wednesday of each month! Though the sometimes 5 week wait is unbearable.  :Frown:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yep, like JasonTodd428 said. Just look forward to second Wednesday of each month! Though the sometimes 5 week wait is unbearable.


Yeah, the 5 week wait is unbearable but at least we all know it'll be there the second Wednesday of the month like always.

----------


## G-Potion

It's a blessing that Lobdell is very consistent at handing in scripts. I don't recall having any delays from him, since RH/A. Don't know about RHATO vol 1 because I wasn't following monthly at the time.

----------


## RedBird

> It's because there are a few months in the year that have had five Wednesdays in them and DC tends to release mainly Annuals on those fifth Wednesdays instead of regular issues. This causes monthly issues to be thrown off their normal 4 week release schedule. Last month was one such month and the one before that was in November. There's nothing sinister going on with it nor is it something that only happens to RHATO.





> Yep, like JasonTodd428 said. Just look forward to second Wednesday of each month! Though the sometimes 5 week wait is unbearable.


Ah cool, thanks guys

I've only recently gotten into the habit of purchasing comics on a consistent basis, so I wasn't quite sure what the hold up was. My fear was less about sinister things going on at dc but more wondering (fearing) if it was trouble or delays caused within the team. Super glad to hear its a normality.

Speaking of rhato does anyone think this 'date' is real? Or do you think its just a cover up for Artemis and Jason, that you know, becomes fun and kooky anyway? There hasn't been much lead up to it, so (assuming its fake) I wonder if the 'date night' aspect will either not be a major part of the book anyway and just serve as a minor stepping stone for the real plot OR if Lobdell will milk the 'fake dating' trope for its worth. :P

----------


## magpieM

> Speaking of rhato does anyone think this 'date' is real? Or do you think its just a cover up for Artemis and Jason, that you know, becomes fun and kooky anyway? There hasn't been much lead up to it, so (assuming its fake) I wonder if the 'date night' aspect will either not be a major part of the book anyway and just serve as a minor stepping stone for the real plot OR if Lobdell will milk the 'fake dating' trope for its worth. :P


Just dug the Feb solicitation for reference:
_RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #19
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
Art by MARCIO TAKARA 
Cover by MIKE McKONE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
“Date Night”! By day, Artemis and Red Hood are teammates, but tonight they’re going out on their first date. Tonight they’re leaving Crime Alley behind and sampling the finer things Gotham City has to offer, including a surprise visit to the Batcave! With his friends gone for the night, how will Bizarro spend his free time? And what’s the deal with Artemis’ warning from last issue? Answers will definitely be revealed._

To me it doesn't matter if it's fake or not. I just prefer to see some action/drama, considering this issue will have a 'surprise visit to the Batcave'. I would be bored if they just sit in a bar again, drinking and talking about Artemis' ex (Creeper this time).

----------


## G-Potion

From the one panel that we've been privy to, Artemis dragging Jason along, both of them waving, presumably to Bizarro with smiles that usually none of them would wear, I assume this date would be a cover.

As for how long it will last, I honestly hope it is a one time thing. Mainly because I look forward to some conflict between the Outlaws, as Lobdell said, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And also to fit with the darker tone that he's going for. I don't see many benefits in dragging out this tired trope.

----------


## kiwiliko

> So I guess they're just spoiled Superman will show up at the Iceberg Lounge.
> 
> And I took the plunge and pre ordered Ikemen's Jason.


Helmet on or did the period of orders for the helmet already pass?

----------


## kiwiliko

> From the one panel that we've been privy to, Artemis dragging Jason along, both of them waving, presumably to Bizarro with smiles that usually none of them would wear, I assume this date would be a cover.
> 
> As for how long it will last, I honestly hope it is a one time thing. Mainly because I look forward to some conflict between the Outlaws, as Lobdell said, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And also to fit with the darker tone that he's going for. I don't see many benefits in dragging out this tired trope.


Half of me screams YES, let them be dark and let them struggle. The other half just wants to see them have a fun Valentines issue because it's a really cute art style and they look so happy in the previews.

----------


## G-Potion

> Half of me screams YES, let them be dark and let them struggle. The other half just wants to see them have a fun Valentines issue because it's a really cute art style and they look so happy in the previews.


Imagine Artemis making up this Valentines date just so she could have a serious talk to Jason regarding Bizarro, but they get into some troubles and end up having a good time instead.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Loedbell may say what he says but he will keep teasing with the push pull. That`s what keeps readers guessing and at this point you don`t need to fully deal with it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Helmet on or did the period of orders for the helmet already pass?


The figure comes with the helmet and the exposed face parts, the face with the domino mask is a first print bonus.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Imagine Artemis making up this Valentines date just so she could have a serious talk to Jason regarding Bizarro, but they get into some troubles and end up having a good time instead.


If that happens I sa great but if Mr. Lobdell chooses otherwise it's no real loss.

----------


## adrikito

I found this in Lois Clark appreciation..




> Red Hood and the Outlaws #22 cover by Guillem March

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.newsarama.com/38578-tita....HasXgFMV.uxfs

If the Titans do end breaking up (that I seriously doubt it will happen because _comic books_) this would be a great chance to get Jason and Roy back together.

Look I just loved their friendship. OK?

----------


## Aioros22

They`ll just keep pushing the Titans up, otherwise it`s alot of characters left with no book. 

Count me in as someone who would rather Roy was in this book but since my main criticism was that "Titans" has been a dud and he hasn`t done zit, I might as well see how the story that revolves mostly on him will play out first.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if Jason gets reunited with Roy (and Kory) like the rumor said, it would be during the Titan/TT shakeup.

----------


## G-Potion

Ed Boon gets it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Tony Stark

> Ed Boon gets it.


LOL! I love it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

For the sake of it I am going to put a link for a blog made by writer Shawn James on why he thinks Jason Todd should have stayed dead. I don't hate Jason I just want to know people's thoughts about it: http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...ayed-dead.html. 

PS: I know this was discussed before but I thought it might helped if brought at least one the guys  who hates Jason to see how valid his views are entirely because in regards to Jason's Pre-52 time as the Red Hood he isn't wrong entirely but his issue with him as Robin is subjective.

----------


## Aahz

> For the sake of it I am going to put a link for a blog made by writer Shawn James on why he thinks Jason Todd should have stayed dead. I don't hate Jason I just want to know people's thoughts about it: http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...ayed-dead.html.


His arguments are imo nonsense.

1) We we stay with post crisis continuity Dick didn't left to become his own man, Bruce kicked him out.

2) There are a lot of stories with Dick disobeying Batman and almost dying, Robin: Year One for example. 

3) Just think about it what would have happened in Diplomats son or Death in the Family or Diplomats Son if Dick or Tim had been the Robins in that story?

4) Jason wasn't even the first who died, but sofar I have never seen someone complain that Alfred should have stayed dead, or that the Death of Lance Bruner would somehow a great part of Batmans history.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> His arguments are imo nonsense.
> 
> 1) We we stay with post crisis continuity Dick didn't left to become his own man, Bruce kicked him out.
> 
> 2) There are a lot of stories with Dick disobeying Batman and almost dying, Robin: Year One for example. 
> 
> 3) Just think about it what would have happened in Diplomats son or Death in the Family or Diplomats Son if Dick or Tim had been the Robins in that story?
> 
> 4) Jason wasn't even the first who died, but sofar I have never seen someone complain that Alfred should have stayed dead, or that the Death of Lance Bruner would somehow a great part of Batmans history.


Just to be clear when it comes to arguments the logic must make sense and when they don't then the logic behind it broken so you can't phrase your thoughts as an opinion because opinions are subjective. And I didn't know Bruce kicked Dick out or that he disobeyed him often. What was the Diplomat's Son about? Well if either Dick or Tim were the ones killed off in Death in the Family well they'd be examples that Batman's work is dangerous and he needs people who are more fitting to work along side him. And Alfred died when? And who is Lance Bruner?

----------


## Aahz

> What was the Diplomat's Son about?


Thats the story where Jason killed the rapist. The guy was a son of Diplomat and had diplomatic immunity, and would have therefore gotten away hand had kept raping women.




> And Alfred died when?


In the 60s he came later back as a villain named the Outsider.




> And who is Lance Bruner?


Bruce an adopted son of Bruce how died (he only appeared in the Brave and the Bold #83).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Thats the story where Jason killed the rapist. The guy was a son of Diplomat and had diplomatic immunity, and would have therefore gotten away hand had kept raping women.


I think Dick and Tim would probably not have killed that rapist but it would still be a grim end as they would be letting him go on to continue to commit more crimes. And it was Dick or Tim who died in Death in the Family I imagine that blog post would be saying they serve Batman better alive.




> In the 60s he came later back as a villain named the Outsider.


That is really far back so far I don't think anyone really cares about that one. But I suppose Jason becoming the kill happy Red Hood made a bigger impact than Alfred's time as the Outsider.




> Bruce an adopted son of Bruce how died (he only appeared in the Brave and the Bold #83).


How long ago was Lance Bruner adopted because he sounds like a pretty minor character.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> For the sake of it I am going to put a link for a blog made by writer Shawn James on why he thinks Jason Todd should have stayed dead. I don't hate Jason I just want to know people's thoughts about it: http://shawnsjames.blogspot.my/2016/...ayed-dead.html. 
> 
> PS: I know this was discussed before but I thought it might helped if brought at least one the guys  who hates Jason to see how valid his views are entirely because in regards to Jason's Pre-52 time as the Red Hood he isn't wrong entirely but his issue with him as Robin is subjective.


The fact he uses as basis of his argument Jason as a "prop" to Batman and fails to see Jason as his own character renders those same arguments moot.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The fact he uses as basis of his argument Jason as a "prop" to Batman and fails to see Jason as his own character renders those same arguments moot.


He probably does see Dick and Tim as their own characters but to him Jason is just a terrible one. The prop argument is a dangerous one when it means the characters are objects not people. He did blunder when he forgot that Dick was kicked out by Bruce in Post Crisis though.

----------


## G-Potion

> PS: I know this was discussed before but I thought it might helped if brought at least one the guys  who hates Jason to see how valid his views are entirely because in regards to Jason's Pre-52 time as the Red Hood he isn't wrong entirely but his issue with him as Robin is subjective.


I was curious before why you said he wasn't entirely wrong on the issue of Jason donning the Red Hood persona. I read the blog and what he he said of Red Hood: 




> Unfortunately, Jeph Loeb decided to bring him back to the land of the living during HUSH. And other writers turned him into the Red Hood, a stain on the Batman Mythos.
> 
> The fact that he carries GUNS is a slap in the face to his mentor and his mission. The Gun killed Bruce’s parents. And Bruce swore never to use one. Every time Jason suits up with his pistols he spits in Batman’s face.
> 
> And the Red Hood character spits in comic fans’ face. By disrespecting the legend of one of DC’s Icons. Making a mockery of his mission and his core values.  Sure some comic fans like him. But the way I see it Jason Todd should have stayed dead.


Which is ridiculous to be honest. Jason is his own character, why does his existence and his choices have to be validated by Batman's code? The idea that Batman is an iconic figure and thus can't have his value/moral be challenged anyway? That's the reason Jason need to stay dead? I'm sorry, this is far from "not entirely wrong". This is extreme bias at its finest.

----------


## G-Potion

@The Dying Detective: Sorry if I assume too much here, but it seems you're quite bothered by these negative blogs. Have you by chance come across the more positive ones that actually have deep understanding of Jason, his time as Robin as well as Red Hood and the circumstances in which he was voted to die?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I was curious before why you said he wasn't entirely wrong on the issue of Jason donning the Red Hood persona. I read the blog and what he he said of Red Hood: 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is ridiculous to be honest. Jason is his own character, why does his existence and his choices have to be validated by Batman's code? The idea that Batman is an iconic figure and thus can't have his value/moral be challenged anyway? That's the reason Jason need to stay dead? I'm sorry, this is far from "not entirely wrong". This is extreme bias at its finest.


Well I think Mr. James is referring to Jason's continued association with the Batfamily and the fact he's working with them these days. But in Post-Crisis he was something of a wild card who did as he pleased and his overall relationship with Batman was tense to say the least in fact for that reason alone I don't think he was really a member of the Batfamily in Post Crisis for that reason. So you aren't wrong he is being a very poor judge of character. And like I said before I have no issues with Jason using guns in fact I am totally indifferent to them and just see them as a strong part of his identity. And Batman has been pretty much unchallenged in the way he does things so it was great that Jason got resurrected. Even the other members of the Batfamily didn't let Batman dictate things particularly Huntress but this fellow likes her.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> @The Dying Detective: Sorry if I assume too much here, but it seems you're quite bothered by these negative blogs. Have you by chance come across the more positive ones that actually have deep understanding of Jason, his time as Robin as well as Red Hood and the circumstances in which he was voted to die?


It's cool I just brought this guy's opinion on Jason because I wondered how valid it even was because he's one really negative guy and a very dangerous man in his own right. I have not found any blogs dedicated to fully understanding Jason's character mainly because I didn't really look. But I am aware that vote that decided he should die was a very difficult one even the writer Denny O'Neil suffered because of it. He couldn't even get food without people pointing fingers at him for being the man who killed Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

I went back and read, and my god,




> And Jason Todd just wasn’t the right person for the job. He was too emotionally and mentally unstable to be a hero. He should have stayed dead.


Way to justify killing a child. 

You know what, tumblr might be horrible about other things, but they are very decent at giving factual information regarding the propaganda DC had, not just at the time of Death of the Family, but also *after*, with the _victim blaming_ that had many readers bought into, this blogger guy included apparently.

----------


## G-Potion

I'd love to show you some reading alternatives, but I'll have to dig. For now though, try this one:

http://violetbovine.blogspot.com/201...marketing.html

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I went back and read, and my god,
> 
> 
> 
> Way to justify killing a child. 
> 
> You know what, tumblr might be horrible about other things, but they are very decent at giving factual information regarding the propaganda DC had, not just at the time of Death of the Family, but also *after*, with the victim blaming that had many readers bought into, this blogger guy included apparently.


He's also the guy who wants Damian Wayne to go away because he sees him as Gary Stu. But yeah that's not right especially when Batman himself is not exactly a well adjusted man especially during that period where he took in Jason. Which according to him was set during a period where DC sales were at an all time low. What is this victim blaming business about anyway?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'd love to show you some reading alternatives, but I'll have to dig. For now though, try this one:
> 
> http://violetbovine.blogspot.com/201...marketing.html


Okay thanks.

----------


## G-Potion

> Which according to him was set during a period where DC sales were at an all time low. What is this victim blaming business about anyway?


Oh man... it's the way DC referenced Jason after his demise, painting the picture that Jason was a bad robin, reckless, he was killed because he disobeyed Batman. That's where the "bad robin" rep came from, not from his Robin run.

Please give this a read.

http://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com/...blamed-for-his

http://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com/...blamed-for-his

----------


## Aahz

> And it was Dick or Tim who died in Death in the Family I imagine that blog post would be saying they serve Batman better alive.


The point I wanted to make is that they (or at least Dick) would have very likely done exactly what Jason did in that story. 





> That is really far back so far I don't think anyone really cares about that one. But I suppose Jason becoming the kill happy Red Hood made a bigger impact than Alfred's time as the Outsider.


The Outsider was actually one of the best villains in that era, and that story went on for several issues, which was quite unusual for the time.





> How long ago was Lance Bruner adopted because he sounds like a pretty minor character.


Only for one issue.

It is of course true that Outsider and Lance are obscure, but my point is that the writer (and many others who write stuff like that) have a very selective view. They often ignore negative things about Dick and Tim and positive things about Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oh man... it's the way DC referenced Jason after his demise, painting the picture that Jason was a bad robin, reckless, he was killed because he disobeyed Batman. That's where the "bad robin" rep came from, not from his Robin run.
> 
> Please give this a read.
> 
> http://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com/...blamed-for-his
> 
> http://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com/...blamed-for-his


It sounds like DC had come up with something to deflect the negative publicity surrounding a character they had every intention of killing off by blaming it on Jason not themselves. And when they felt that there was a need to they brought Jason back to make more money. So yeah Shawn James must have bought into their propaganda but even if he knew of the lies I think he is too poisoned by Jason's negative depictions as both Robin and his rocky new start as the Red Hood to listen. And thanks for the links I'll read them when I have the time.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The point I wanted to make is that they (or at least Dick) would have very likely done exactly what Jason did in that story.


True and then DC will be quickly resurrect them to save face when the same negative publicity that surrounded Jason's death hits them. Because they might not have the excuse of Jason's own flaws to back the victim blaming nonsense they committed later on.




> The Outsider was actually one of the best villains in that era, and that story went on for several issues, which was quite unusual for the time.


How unusual yet Jason has more potential as mainstay character than the Outsider did.




> Only for one issue.
> 
> It is of course true that Outsider and Lance are obscure, but my point is that the writer (and many others who write stuff like that) have a very selective view. They often ignore negative things about Dick and Tim and positive things about Jason.


Wow that's short. Well when you have fans writing instead of seasoned professionals with a balanced view of the characters and can think objectively bad things can happen for no real reason. Shawn James claims that even if he does not like all of DC's characters he will be a professional and think objectively. But yet on his blog is his hypothetical Nightwing run where he will not use Damian only Tim Drake even though he and Dick have equally an strong relationship the one Dick and Tim had says it all.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's cool I just brought this guy's opinion on Jason because I wondered how valid it even was because he's one really negative guy and a very dangerous man in his own right. I have not found any blogs dedicated to fully understanding Jason's character mainly because I didn't really look. But I am aware that vote that decided he should die was a very difficult one even the writer Denny O'Neil suffered because of it. He couldn't even get food without people pointing fingers at him for being the man who killed Jason.


For an opinion to be valid, it has to be an informed one, and this guy's in particular is a severely biased one and one that get some facts wrong to boot (Loeb never brought Jason back for example).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> For an opinion to be valid, it has to be an informed one, and this guy's in particular is a severely biased one and one that get some facts wrong to boot (Loeb never brought Jason back for example).


From what I read on that blog he gets a lot of information wrong which never helpful in making good arguments. What other facts about jason did he get wrong besides the guy who brought Jason back to life and why he was lead to his death in the first place?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It sounds like DC had come up with something to deflect the negative publicity surrounding a character they had every intention of killing off by blaming it on Jason not themselves.


DC, in my opinion, was also using the fans themselves as a way to deflect people from the idea that they were the ones that intended to kill Jason/Robin in the first place. With that 1-900 stunt they had a built in way of pushing off the responsibility for his death onto the fans that voted for it and therefore making it seem like it was something out of their control. I was a reader of Batman at the time and frankly the whole thing pissed me the f*** off. (I'm still angry about it to this day in fact.) I actually dropped out of reading comics at that point for a time because of it. Once I returned to them I was angered by all the victim blaming that was going on. I missed out on all the build up of it so it quite blindsided me to hear about how Jason was the "Bad Robin" given that last I had known he died while attempting to save his own mother from Joker's bomb despite her betrayal. Writers were treating him like trash when they should have been treating him like the hero he was.

----------


## magpieM

Why care so much about what Shawn James thinks about Jason? I often spot comment like 'he should stay dead' here and there. It's just their opinion because they don't like him. People have different preferences on everything. It's normal. Why would Jason's fans take those negative opinions so seriously as if it is Jason or fans to blame?

In my personal point of view, some famous DC Batman writers do misunderstand this character a lot. That's a real trouble because with their bad writing of Jason, they can amplify their bias by making their version of 'Jason' canon in popular Batman books, creating more haters.

----------


## KC93

> In my personal point of view, some famous DC Batman writers do misunderstand this character a lot. That's a real trouble because with their bad writing of Jason, they can amplify their bias by making their version of 'Jason' canon in popular Batman books, creating more haters.


You said exactly what I was thinking. I'm not a fan of Grant Morrison's Jason even though I loved his writing of the Dick and Damian duo in Batman and Robin Vol 1. Unfortunately that version and the Battle for the Cowl version are mentioned quite alot because they're in the main batman book which has the most readers. Therefore when people who don't know much about Jason they read the Batman and Robin comics and end up with a bad impression. First time posting, hope I made sense.

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## Aioros22

With the general success the character has gained In his second live, especially outside the Comics Format,  It is harder for a writer to exclusively waste bussiness to such an extent. Failure In characterization In squads is the normal trend now. 

The staunt is Stan and buried and all we can do is sing along. As ye should.

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## G-Potion

> First time posting, hope I made sense.


Welcome, mate!  :Embarrassment:

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## kiwiliko

> You said exactly what I was thinking. I'm not a fan of Grant Morrison's Jason even though I loved his writing of the Dick and Damian duo in Batman and Robin Vol 1. Unfortunately that version and the Battle for the Cowl version are mentioned quite alot because they're in the main batman book which has the most readers. Therefore when people who don't know much about Jason they read the Batman and Robin comics and end up with a bad impression. First time posting, hope I made sense.


The thing where a writer tries to make their least favorite character look bad by having them do bad or out of (relative) character action has been done before and fortunately it looks like they don't stick all that well. Both Damian and Jason were meant to burn bright for one runs ideas then stay dead and out of sight yet here we are. 

Also welcome!

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## G-Potion

> Why care so much about what Shawn James thinks about Jason? I often spot comment like 'he should stay dead' here and there. It's just their opinion because they don't like him. People have different preferences on everything. It's normal. Why would Jason's fans take those negative opinions so seriously as if it is Jason or fans to blame?
> 
> In my personal point of view, some famous DC Batman writers do misunderstand this character a lot. That's a real trouble because with their bad writing of Jason, they can amplify their bias by making their version of 'Jason' canon in popular Batman books, creating more haters.


I think it's easier to dismiss these bloggers if you are already well informed of the facts. For someone who's not as informed, I can imagine feeling torn as without context, what the blog writers say could make a kind of sense. I remember myself being a bit similar in that I was exposed to N52 RHATO first through negative sources because they were otherwise very knowledgeable on past versions of Jason. Promptly unfollowed them after I read the material myself. Personally I admire The Dying Detective for actively seeking opinions on the matter.

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## KC93

Thanks for making me feel welcome. I'm very anxious so I don't usually post, but I love reading discussions. Especially on my favourite character.

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## G-Potion

No worry, I lurked for a while too. Happy to have you here!  :Smile:

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## JasonTodd428

> First time posting, hope I made sense.


I welcome you as well.

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## JasonTodd428

> No worry, I lurked for a while too. Happy to have you here!


I lurked on this forum for a long time myself before deciding to start posting so I completely understand being anxious about doing so.

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## WontonGirl

> Thanks for making me feel welcome. I'm very anxious so I don't usually post, but I love reading discussions. Especially on my favourite character.


Welcome! Thanks for posting!  :Big Grin:

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## WontonGirl

> I lurked on this forum for a long time myself before deciding to start posting so I completely understand being anxious about doing so.


Me too, I lurked for about a good year before I actually posted. I still lurk much more than I actually post, especially in the threads related to the Robins.  :Frown:

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## magpieM

> Thanks for making me feel welcome. I'm very anxious so I don't usually post, but I love reading discussions. Especially on my favourite character.


 :Smile:  Hi welcome! I'd 'skulked' around for almost a year before I posted something.

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## The Dying Detective

> I think it's easier to dismiss these bloggers if you are already well informed of the facts. For someone who's not as informed, I can imagine feeling torn as without context, what the blog writers say could make a kind of sense. I remember myself being a bit similar in that I was exposed to N52 RHATO first through negative sources because they were otherwise very knowledgeable on past versions of Jason. Promptly unfollowed them after I read the material myself. Personally I admire The Dying Detective for actively seeking opinions on the matter.


Thank you G-Potion any I heard that the returning Young Justice cartoon will be more mature. Would anyone like to see Jason return as the Red Hood because he was one of the fallen Young Justice members shown in season two. Perhaps as a wild card trying to take down the Light in his own unique way or as an ace in the hole of Ra's al Ghul. I'm more weirded out that Tim Drake is going to appear but wearing Damian Wayne's costume.

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## RedBird

k-axani



Really love this piece!
Also Hi KC93  :Smile:

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 18 didn't make it to the top 100.

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## G-Potion

> Issue 18 didn't make it to the top 100.


Do we know how many issues it sold though?

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Full sales numbers will be out later today.

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## G-Potion

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

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## G-Potion



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## Aioros22

> Full sales numbers will be out later today.


At this point I honestly chose to stop being woried about sales. The character is too popular to be shelved so they will continue to publish it and there hasn`t been a big motivation behind Office to actually work the book in promotion and spike it. They`re pleased with what they currently have. That`s both good and bad but as long the book continues to be a quality book I have less issues with accepting it. 

It bothers me more than they haven`t pushed Jason in the Cinematic universe yet because tat would be easy money and would actually detract from any Batman lowpoints to contrast with.

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## G-Potion

> It bothers me more than they haven`t pushed Jason in the Cinematic universe yet because tat would be easy money and would actually detract from any Batman lowpoints to contrast with.


On the other hand though, maybe it's best that DC finds their footing in the cinematic universe first before bringing him in.

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## The Dying Detective

> On the other hand though, maybe it's best that DC finds their footing in the cinematic universe first before bringing him in.


There is hint to that the defaced Robin costume that obviously belongs to Jason. Whether he will be resurrected though is debatable. But if he is he might be like the Winter Soldier or they could just adapt Under the Hood.

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## G-Potion

> There is hint to that the defaced Robin costume that obviously belong to Jason. Whether he will be resurrected though is debatable. But if he he might be like the Winter Soldier or they could just adapt Under the Hood.


Back when BvS was still in the work, there was already rumors that Red Hood was a priority character for WB. Of course things have changed quite a lot with the lackluster receptions for most of their movies as well as Ben Affleck calling quits. DC really needs to have a stable output before they can confidently adapt Under the Hood because making Red Hood like the Winter Soldier is just a recipe for disaster.

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## The Dying Detective

> Back when BvS was still in the work, there was already rumors that Red Hood was a priority character for WB. Of course things have changed quite a lot with the lackluster receptions for most of their movies as well as Ben Affleck calling quits. DC really needs to have a stable output before they can confidently adapt Under the Hood because making Red Hood like the Winter Soldier is just a recipe for disaster.


Ben Affleck is seriously quitting but isn't he contracted to do the Batman film? That's true and also one of the bigger challenges of adapting Under the Hood is that it was pretty violent story and to win big Warner Bros will have to make it marketable for the general audience.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> On the other hand though, maybe it's best that DC finds their footing in the cinematic universe first before bringing him in.


They've had found their footing already with Snyder's films but now that they decided to give the keys to Whedon is when everything went belly up.

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## G-Potion

> They've had found their footing already with Snyder's films but now that they decided to give the keys to Whedon is when everything went belly up.


I didn't even bother with JL. With Snyder though, his works are pretty divisive and WB probably doesn't want any more risks.

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## G-Potion

> Ben Affleck is seriously quitting but isn't he contracted to do the Batman film? That's true and also one of the bigger challenges of adapting Under the Hood is that it was pretty violent story and to win big Warner Bros will have to make it marketable for the general audience.


Well I just checked, lastest news is that  ‘Ben Affleck is STILL Batman, but will NOT fully commit’.

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## Aioros22

WB getting their heads on the right track would require them admitting that rushing what they perceive as the Marvel Formula in just two movies to have been a gigantic mistake from the ground up. 

Sorry to say but I don`t believe they would come to that. Not only is too much money burned into the investiment already but the excs are too damn stubburn to conceed that they lack what Marvel got. They are actually so adamantly into selling their vision and have it won over critics that they keep pushing the MOS formula for the praise that they believe never came in detritment of actual Hits that they just had with Wonder Woman. Te reward? She plays babysitter and together with the whole League looks amazingly innefective against the CGI beard. Talking about Justice League and execution...

Guaranteed that the best hits of the current cinematic wave and mostly praised will be the ones WB doesn`t really believe or see it coming. Like Wonder Woman or possibly Aquaman. Or you know, a Under The Red Hood focusing mostly on Jason`s character, struggle and philosophy so Batfleck doesn`t have to _try_ getting the whole spothlight despite the reception level at this point and the issue of the actor`s commitment.

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## G-Potion

> Ben Affleck is seriously quitting but isn't he contracted to do the Batman film? That's true and also one of the bigger challenges of adapting Under the Hood is that it was pretty violent story and to win big Warner Bros will have to make it marketable for the general audience.


I think the risk is also that it has to live up to the animated movie. And for general audience, I guess there will be some kneejerks reaction that this is just DC's version of Winter Soldier if WB doesn't market it right.

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## The Dying Detective

> Well I just checked, lastest news is that  ‘Ben Affleck is STILL Batman, but will NOT fully commit’.


Hmm so he is still Batman but he not so enthusiastic about the role? It figures because of the ridiculous amount of executive meddling and Joss Whedon trying to put his stamp on the DCEU who would want to continue on this road?

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## G-Potion

> Guaranteed that the best hits of the current cinematic wave and mostly praised will be the ones WB doesn`t really believe or see it coming.


I actually feel this as well. For UTRH though, I guess they will have to get The Batman out first and see how it goes.

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## The Dying Detective

> I think the risk is also that it has to live up to the animated movie. And for general audience, I guess there will be some kneejerks reaction that this is just DC's version of Winter Soldier if WB doesn't market it right.


Under the Red Hood was considered the superior version of Under the Hood even by the guy who wrote the comic. Maybe if they do not turn Black Mask into some Hydra copy and just try to straight up adapt it but cut out some of the gorier elements they could have a more original film.

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## G-Potion

> Hmm so he is still Batman but he not so enthusiastic about the role? It figures because of the ridiculous amount of executive meddling and Joss Whedon trying to put his stamp on the DCEU who would want to continue on this road?


That said, the rumor that Matt Reeves is helming a Batman solo movie and sources say that he has his eye on Gyllenhaal for the Caped Crusader over Affleck is pretty recent as well.

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## Aioros22

> Under the Red Hood was considered the superior version of Under the Hood even by the guy who wrote the comic. Maybe if they do not turn Black Mask into some Hydra copy and just try to straight up adapt it but cut out some of the gorier elements they could have a more original film.


Well, the whole plotline for the animated was written by Winnick still. I`m thinking the better steamline comes from ditching the elements of whatever crossover event was going on and truly it made for better self contained reading.

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## The Dying Detective

> That said, the rumor that Matt Reeves is helming a Batman solo movie and sources say that he has his eye on Gyllenhaal for the Caped Crusader over Affleck is pretty recent as well.


If the rumour is true then the DCEU is in an even bigger state of anarchy than ever. Still one must wonder even though according to Dark_Tzitzimine if they had just stuck with Zack Snyder's vision they would be better off but for many it was Zack Snyder's vision that made every snowball in the first especially with Man of Steel.

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## The Dying Detective

> Well, the whole plotline for the animated was written by Winnick still. I`m thinking the better steamline comes from ditching the elements of whatever crossover event was going on and truly it made for better self contained reading.


Under the Red Hood was already it''s own self-contained story though. Maybe they should adapt that one instead of Under the Hood.

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## Aioros22

> Hmm so he is still Batman but he not so enthusiastic about the role? It figures because of the ridiculous amount of executive meddling and Joss Whedon trying to put his stamp on the DCEU who would want to continue on this road?


Im guessing the commitment has more to do Afleck turning his role more In the writting department. At least by some of the rumors floating online these past 2 years.

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## G-Potion

Seeing as the Joker's origin movie is being developed... I don't care for Joker but if it introduces the original Red Hood(s) to the audience, then it could only be a good thing right?

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## Aioros22

> Under the Red Hood was already it''s own self-contained story though. Maybe they should adapt that one instead of Under the Hood.


The Under The Red Hood arc on Batman had elements from the Infinite Crisis crossover going on at the time, linking Jason's return with Superboy Whine time punch. 

It just reads better without none of those elements In the story (or even the ending with Jay dropping a nuclear on Haven) to detract from It. They added nothing of value and mistery surrounding the return sells much better.

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## Aioros22

> Seeing as the Joker's origin movie is being developed... I don't care for Joker but if it introduces the original Red Hood(s) to the audience, then it could only be a good thing right?


If done right, yeah but this is WB we're talking about xD

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## G-Potion

> The Comic had elements from the Infinite Crisis crossover going on at the time, linking Jason's return with Superboy Whine time punch. 
> 
> It just reads better without none of those elements In the story (or even the ending with Jay dropping a nuclear on Haven) to detract from It. They added nothing of value and mistery surrounding the return sells much better.


Wait he nuked Bludhaven? Wasn't it the Society?

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## G-Potion

> If done right, yeah but this is WB we're talking about xD


I'm of the mindset that if what's there is already bad, there's no way to go but up.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## The Dying Detective

> The Under The Red Hood arc on Batman had elements from the Infinite Crisis crossover going on at the time, linking Jason's return with Superboy Whine time punch. 
> 
> It just reads better without none of those elements In the story (or even the ending with Jay dropping a nuclear on Haven) to detract from It. They added nothing of value and mistery surrounding the return sells much better.


That one was just straight up crazy no wonder Under the Red Hood was more well liked. Like i said instead of adhering to Under the Hood and all it's other unsavoury elements that it was tied up with maybe they should use Under the Red Hood as the source material.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

105. Red Hood and the Outlaws #18 (DC) - 21,385 [97]

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## G-Potion

> 105. Red Hood and the Outlaws #18 (DC) - 21,385 [97]


Is the dropoff bigger or same as ususal?

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## Aahz

> Is the dropoff bigger or same as ususal?


The drop it self seems quite usual, but the numbers are getting uncomfortably close to 20K.

But it seems that in general the sales boost DC got out of rebirth is gone.

Btw. that RHatO dropped out had again more to do with the Annuals, #1 issues and Event Books that were published than with the drop of the sales.

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## magpieM

> Under the Red Hood was already it''s own self-contained story though. Maybe they should adapt that one instead of Under the Hood.


I think so, too. UTRH was a very tightly packed story. It's so intensive and emotional that an adapt story similar with it would make people feel repeat.

Arkham Knight provided an alternative scenario in which Jason didn't die in the first place. But his reveal wasn't a "surprise" at all to many gamers. The comic story associated with the game was good. But in the actual gameplay he was made too whinny and in the end, the tank battles & Joker stole all the attention.

It seems that Jason did not die and will show more in future White Knight issues. That could be a newer version. And if the 'Batman' in Injustice 2 is Jason Todd, then we'll potentially have a 4th version...

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## magpieM

> Seeing as the Joker's origin movie is being developed... I don't care for Joker but if it introduces the original Red Hood(s) to the audience, then it could only be a good thing right?


Joker plays a huge role in Jason's story. If there is going to be a movie about Red Hood origin, I think a very impressive and well-presented Joker is crucial.

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## The Dying Detective

> I think so, too. UTRH was a very tightly packed story. It's so intensive and emotional that an adapt story similar with it would make people feel repeat.


Yeah adapting Jason without repeating what has been done before is going to be a challenge.

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## G-Potion

> The drop it self seems quite usual, but the numbers are getting uncomfortably close to 20K.
> 
> But it seems that in general the sales boost DC got out of rebirth is gone.
> 
> Btw. that RHatO dropped out had again more to do with the Annuals, #1 issues and Event Books that were published than with the drop of the sales.


Some boost from DC would be nice. They did for Supergirl and I assume Deathstroke too with the Batman involvement. I hope RHATO wont suffer worse treatment just because it doesn't have a tv series or a movie.

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## G-Potion

Thanks for the number Aahz. Do you by chance still remember RHATO or RHA lowest numbers?

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## SpentShrimp

I have a feeling that in the future we may see a Red Hood solo written by someone who wants to go back to the more anti-hero roots from UTRH. I would enjoy that as long as it builds off of what Lobdell has done, and isn't a Punisher copy.

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## Godlike13

I think its inevitable honestly.

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## Aahz

> Thanks for the number Aahz. Do you by chance still remember RHATO or RHA lowest numbers?


It was iirc in both cases the final issue, RH/A#13 sold 16,389 RHatO Vol 1 #40 sold 17,110.

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## G-Potion

> I have a feeling that in the future we may see a Red Hood solo written by someone who wants to go back to the more anti-hero roots from UTRH. I would enjoy that as long as it builds off of what Lobdell has done, and isn't a Punisher copy.


That requires DC to actually consider giving their less promoted characters opportunities. But with the current RHATO going darker, I think the "going back to UTRH" root is already happening more or less. I'd love a Red Hood solo of course, but I do think RHATO already feels like one given that Jason is rarely sidelined in any issue.

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## JasonTodd428

@SpentShrimp: I'd be fine with that so long as whomever writes it stays far away from the psycho killer version that was so prevalent with his appearances before the reboot. I've absolutely no desire to see that particular characterization applied to Jason again. 

@ G: I actually feel that Lobdell is doing a good job of not sidelining anyone on the team, unlike most of DC team books have a habit of doing. And as for the current RHATO going darker I don't think we actually know what that means yet. It could very well mean a direction closer to UTRH but it may mean something entirely different. I guess we'll just have to see what happens as time passes.

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## The Dying Detective

> @SpentShrimp: I'd be fine with that so long as whomever writes it stays far away from the psycho killer version that was so prevalent with his appearances before the reboot. I've absolutely no desire to see that particular characterization applied to Jason again.


If you put Christopher Priest on it you might see it happen because he's been working on reverting Deathstroke to his merciless roots with his reasoning being someone like Deathstroke can be complex but not a good man. I can't imagine what his reasoning for turning Jason back into a psycho would be though. He seems to enjoy writing characters realistically.




> @ G: I actually feel that Lobdell is doing a good job of not sidelining anyone on the team, unlike most of DC team books have a habit of doing. And as for the current RHATO going darker I don't think we actually know what that means yet. It could very well mean a direction closer to UTRH but it may mean something entirely different. I guess we'll just have to see what happens as time passes.


This problem is not exclusive to DC's team books the complaint about New X-Men: Academy X is that the new writers focused way too much on their creation X-23 and X-Men Gold has become the Kitty Pryde show. I think the previous writers were able to balance things a lot better. I wonder how much of it is down to the number of characters or writer's skill in balancing them.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I have a feeling that in the future we may see a Red Hood solo written by someone who wants to go back to the more anti-hero roots from UTRH. I would enjoy that as long as it builds off of what Lobdell has done, and isn't a Punisher copy.


Not in the near future, I can tell you that.

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## Aahz

> That requires DC to actually consider giving their less promoted characters opportunities. But with the current RHATO going darker, I think the "going back to UTRH" root is already happening more or less. I'd love a Red Hood solo of course, but I do think RHATO already feels like one given that Jason is rarely sidelined in any issue.


I think he should get a solo once the current incarnation of the outlaws disbands. I mean it is rare nowadays that a team book goes for more that 50 issues without a change of the cast, and I would prefer Jason to get a solo run before they do third incarnation of the Outlaws.

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## G-Potion

I wonder, how do you guys compare the focus/character work that Jason gets in his team book with that of characters with their own solo? I don't read a lot, but even in titles like Batman, there are certain arcs that feel like he is not the star of his own book at all.

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## Aioros22

> I have a feeling that in the future we may see a Red Hood solo written by someone who wants to go back to the more anti-hero roots from UTRH. I would enjoy that as long as it builds off of what Lobdell has done, and isn't a Punisher copy


The roots never left. What the solo would bring is a situation where Jason admitedly would not function with friends around to keep himself in check. Loedbell already allured to this when the first group disbanded and in Future`s End. I keep bringing back the backup idea for the book for some down time/solo stories for Jason like the in old days. I wasn`t even born when that format was key in montly titles but it`s something that after hunting for books and reading them I found pleasing and surely missing in today`s mainstream market. 

Then again, artists take more time these days to finish it off..

I wouldn`t mind a solo book with a Vertigo vibe. To me that`s the definite solo asthetic for the character and leaves at the door any Punisher-esque considerations that a few like to bring up, right away. I am currently enjoying RATHO a great deal, to and I want Loedbell to have the shot to wrap all his plot points up if that day ever comes closer but in the meantime (again) I have no idea why DC doesn`t give Jason miniseries considering Lost Years did alright. 

In the end, debating for RATHO going further or a solo effort is laughably meaningless if Office doesn`t give a crap about actual promotion.

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## Aioros22

To answer your question G, the focus on character isn`t missing one bit on Jason in RATHO since he`s always nearly the main focus. 

When people talk of a Solo book, they wish for a promotion on all fronts, an update, if you will. That`s basically it. Alas, with Office being content with what they got, it really doesn`t matter much. They`re happy with the money he makes instead on focusing how he could just make more.

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## G-Potion

> To answer your question G, the focus on character isn`t missing one bit on Jason in RATHO since he`s always nearly the main focus. 
> 
> When people talk of a Solo book, they wish for a promotion on all fronts, an update, if you will. That`s basically it. Alas, with Office being content with what they got, it really doesn`t matter much. They`re happy with the money he makes instead on focusing how he could just make more.


Ah I get what you mean. I wasn't sure what Godlike13 meant when he said it's inevitable. Certainly not because Office is so caring about the character now, so I guess he meant a solo/going back to UTRH root is inevitable because Lobdell is somehow failing with RHATO.

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## Aioros22

I don`t think he`s ever been hot with Loedbell handling bat characters, so that may  :Wink:  but regardless of the format, promotion is suposed to be there for a reason and it`s been failing heaps since the launch. 

As in, it`s not been there.

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## G-Potion

> *but regardless of the format*, promotion is suposed to be there for a reason and it`s been failing heaps since the launch. 
> 
> As in, it`s not been there.


I agree. There are solos that content-wise, are not that rewarding for their characters. RHATO as a team book with the most focus on Jason wouldn't be a minus point if it is properly cared for by Office.

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## G-Potion

> It was iirc in both cases the final issue, RH/A#13 sold 16,389 RHatO Vol 1 #40 sold 17,110.


Hey thanks Aahz!

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## Aahz

> I wonder, how do you guys compare the focus/character work that Jason gets in his team book with that of characters with their own solo? I don't read a lot, but even in titles like Batman, there are certain arcs that feel like he is not the star of his own book at all.


But Batman is a special case since he has some many appearances anyway. 
When it comes to character moments I don't think he would really get much more, but he would get more opportunity to shine if he goes up against a villain on it's own and not in a team (especially with when his team mates are that powerfull). And it would also easier to really challenge him.

----------


## G-Potion

Some more Komusou Jason.

https://weibo.com/shikabu?refer_flag=1005055013_

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## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/inariazuha

"jason and tim
it wont fit cuz of the hair"


"jason mask face"

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

To be perfectly honest, I feel that the people asking for a RH solo are being somewhat blinded by the nostalgia. A ruthless Jason approach doesn't really work in the long term and would clash way too much with the larger DCU to be a worthwhile investment (although it would work wonderfully as a Vertigo  miniseries). The character needs to be toned down and mellow to be able to work as part of a whole, and he also needs a stable supporting cast. Lost Days that is what I assume the closest thing to what people has in mind when asking for a RH solo, is by far one of the weakest stories in Jason's publication story and one that wasn't particularly well selling. 

The Outlaws on the other hand are a stroke of genius that give Jason a niche previously empty within the Bat family that is build in such a way that allows writers to pull the characters beyond the normal scope used for Batman related characters. And after six years of the title going at a steady pace, is a safe bet to assume DC has no interest on moving Jason from that niche anytime soon.

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## The Dying Detective

> To be perfectly honest, I feel that the people asking for a RH solo are being somewhat blinded by the nostalgia. A ruthless Jason approach doesn't really work in the long term and would clash way too much with the larger DCU to be a worthwhile investment (although it would work wonderfully as a Vertigo  miniseries). The character needs to be toned down and mellow to be able to work as part of a whole, and he also needs a stable supporting cast. Lost Days that is what I assume the closest thing to what people has in mind when asking for a RH solo, is by far one of the weakest stories in Jason's publication story and one that wasn't particularly well selling. 
> 
> The Outlaws on the other hand are a stroke of genius that give Jason a niche previously empty within the Bat family that is build in such a way that allows writers to pull the characters beyond the normal scope used for Batman related characters. And after six years of the title going at a steady pace, is a safe bet to assume DC has no interest on moving Jason from that niche anytime soon.


I'm find with this incarnation of the Outlaws becoming the classic iteration honestly.

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## Aioros22

> To be perfectly honest, I feel that the people asking for a RH solo are being somewhat blinded by the nostalgia. A ruthless Jason approach doesn't really work in the long term and would clash way too much with the larger DCU to be a worthwhile investment (although it would work wonderfully as a Vertigo  miniseries). The character needs to be toned down and mellow to be able to work as part of a whole, and he also needs a stable supporting cast. Lost Days that is what I assume the closest thing to what people has in mind when asking for a RH solo, is by far one of the weakest stories in Jason's publication story and one that wasn't particularly well selling. 
> 
> The Outlaws on the other hand are a stroke of genius that give Jason a niche previously empty within the Bat family that is build in such a way that allows writers to pull the characters beyond the normal scope used for Batman related characters. And after six years of the title going at a steady pace, is a safe bet to assume DC has no interest on moving Jason from that niche anytime soon.


How much did Lost Days made as a whole? 

What you suggest when it comes to be careful with the literation is all well and on point but a solo Jason wouldn`t have to be Winnick`s interpretation at all. Loedbell and co have already managed to show he can be be true to his crime dealing philosophy accordingly and without sacrifising too much of his whole backstory. I absolutely loved Lost Years back when and it made sense to fill in some of the gaps at the time but you can still use it. His development shouldn`t erase what he considers the biggest crimes in his pov. 

Once more, the key is balance. Don`t throw and welcome to use what came before and don`t erase further character development. This isn`t really (pr should be) a major deal considering that whatever mellowing out Jason has had, not only makes sense in the context it happened (finding his own family in a misfit group of friends), it wouldn`t ever erase his fundamentals. If anything it would make him less predictable in dealing with some things with his life now and what surounds him. 

The character work so far has been mostly good, that`s not even the issue. The issue is DC/Office/WB/TPTB using him in bigger ways and award the general success he`s gotten with bigger projects instead of just being happy with the niche he`s founded.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> How much did Lost Days made as a whole? 
> 
> What you suggest when it comes to be careful with the literation is all well and on point but a solo Jason wouldn`t have to be Winnick`s interpretation at all. Loedbell and co have already managed to show he can be be true to his crime dealing philosophy accordingly and without sacrifising too much of his whole backstory. I absolutely loved Lost Years back when and it made sense to fill in some of the gaps at the time but you can still use it. His development shouldn`t erase what he considers the biggest crimes in his pov. 
> 
> Once more, the key is balance. Don`t throw and welcome to use what came before and don`t erase further character development. This isn`t really (pr should be) a major deal considering that whatever mellowing out Jason has had, not only makes sense in the context it happened (finding his own family in a misfit group of friends), it wouldn`t ever erase his fundamentals. If anything it would make him less predictable in dealing with some things with his life now and what surounds him. 
> 
> The character work so far has been mostly good, that`s not even the issue. The issue is DC/Office/WB/TPTB using him in bigger ways and award the general success he`s gotten with bigger projects instead of just being happy with the niche he`s founded.


Oh I'm aware of that. I'm just using as basis for my argument the fact that ruthless Jason is whatever people tends to think when asking for a RH solo. A "return to the good times" when Jason wasn't part of the Batfamily. A solo title with the current Jason wouldn't satisfy that section of the fanabse and would be somewhat redundant since Jason is still the driving force behind RHATO.

In other news, Batman Ninja gets a home release in May

----------


## Aahz

> How much did Lost Days made as a whole?


The #1 sold 34,197 copies, till #6 dropped it down to 22,123. That a surprisingly small drop, but not terribly impressing numbers.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh I'm aware of that. I'm just using as basis for my argument the fact that ruthless Jason is whatever people tends to think when asking for a RH solo. A "return to the good times" when Jason wasn't part of the Batfamily. A solo title with the current Jason wouldn't satisfy that section of the fanabse and would be somewhat redundant since Jason is still the driving force behind RHATO.


The people that are looking for a more ruthless version of Jason are just going to have to understand that DC already has tried that characterization before. It came to nothing because no writer after Winick bothered to develops that version beyond a rather whiney, one note, one dimensional characterization that got VERY old VERY quickly. Perhaps IF some writer had pitched a solo book for Red Hood back at that time and used the foundation for the character Winick had set up in UTRH and LD they could have done something interesting and more nuanced with the concept. Unfortunately that never happened and to do so at this late date would be a disservice to the character as he exists now. Frankly I'd be far happier to get a RH solo that builds on what Lobdell has done with the character rather than one that would have to regress the character just to make a few vocal fans happy.




> In other news, Batman Ninja gets a home release in May


That's good news. Thanks for the info, Dark. I can always count on you for such news.  :Cool:

----------


## Aahz

> Unfortunately that never happened and to do so at this late date would be a disservice to the character as he exists now. Frankly I'd be far happier to get a RH solo that builds on what Lobdell has done with the character rather than one that would have to regress the character just to make a few vocal fans happy.


Thats why I would have liked to see a Red hood Mini in the Arkham Verse as follow up to genesis.

But I would still like also the Lobdell Jason to get a solo, and even if it is just a mini, he really needs some iconic solo stories.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Like I mentioned elsewhere; he doesn't have to be the Punisher. There's a lot of untapped potential there as far as a solo series goes. It's fun to see him work with a team and build new relationships, but at the same time it would be nice to have a series that can solely focus on Jason and his own adventures.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thats why I would have liked to see a Red hood Mini in the Arkham Verse as follow up to genesis


I would have liked to have seen an Arkham verse Red Hood mini as well. It would have made a nice follow up to Genesis as you say. Arkham verse Jason is probably the version that is closest to what some people are looking for insofar as a more violent Jason is concerned. I could very easily see that version of the character becoming a darker anti-hero who kills the bad guys.

----------


## Rac7d*

So i guess they have small parts since they all have to share voice actors

----------


## Frontier

> So i guess they have small parts since they all have to share voice actors


Either that or they thought Friedle could do a good enough job of differentiating between the two voices so they didn't need to hire another actor. 

Kinda funny to see Tim and Jason sharing a VA again  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Like I mentioned elsewhere; he doesn't have to be the Punisher. There's a lot of untapped potential there as far as a solo series goes. It's fun to see him work with a team and build new relationships, but at the same time it would be nice to have a series that can solely focus on Jason and his own adventures.


I think it is very important for Jason to have a team that he is a steady part of since he never got the chance to have his own Teen Titans group like the other Robins and he's pretty much been a loner since his return. His being able to have that now was a good step for them to have taken because it allowed for him to think outside of himself for awhile, which was I think was an important step for the character. It allowed him a way to look at things from a fresh perspective and think about things instead of just constantly reacting to them. That's what I feel anyway.

There absolutely is a lot of untapped potential in a solo series with the right writer though. I agree with that and I'd be all for that so long as the writer they find is able to build their stories on the foundation that others have already built. I want to see the character continue to progress and not regress. I want to see nuanced stories that add even more depth to the character and his world. I want to see how he would do working on his own now that he's worked with others in a team. I think that a well written solo and the current team book could really compliment each other if handled right and make Jason an even stronger character overall. It might even lead to other writers handling the character better during guest appearances. (Yeah, I know the last is a pipe dream at best but a guy can dream can't he?)

----------


## magpieM

> I think he should get a solo once the current incarnation of the outlaws disbands. I mean it is rare nowadays that a team book goes for more that 50 issues without a change of the cast, and I would prefer Jason to get a solo run before they do third incarnation of the Outlaws.


I'm not very familiar with other team books. Is that very common to change cast? For now it is difficult for me to imagine how Bizarro would leave. Would he die? The splitting of RH/A was heart-breaking already. Not another one for Jason...

Speaking of solo, for a character like Jason who doesn't express a lot, there must be some more close circle interactions (e.g. Willis, Ma Gunn...) to fill the blank left by teammates, I guess. And not just Batman villains, more stories about his own rouge gallery need to be included. 

And I like the idea from @Aioros22 that some characters from law enforcement investigating him would be interesting, too.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I think it is very important for Jason to have a team that he is a steady part of since he never got the chance to have his own Teen Titans group like the other Robins and he's pretty much been a loner since his return. His being able to have that now was a good step for them to have taken because it allowed for him to think outside of himself for awhile, which was I think was an important step for the character. It allowed him a way to look at things from a fresh perspective and think about things instead of just constantly reacting to them. That's what I feel anyway.
> 
> There absolutely is a lot of untapped potential in a solo series with the right writer though. I agree with that and I'd be all for that so long as the writer they find is able to build their stories on the foundation that others have already built. I want to see the character continue to progress and not regress. I want to see nuanced stories that add even more depth to the character and his world. I want to see how he would do working on his own now that he's worked with others in a team. I think that a well written solo and the current team book could really compliment each other if handled right and make Jason an even stronger character overall. It might even lead to other writers handling the character better during guest appearances. (Yeah, I know the last is a pipe dream at best but a guy can dream can't he?)


I do believe having a team around him has helped push his character forward. I am a bit annoyed that editorial won't let him be a little violent. I think a good Detective Comics like solo series would be a good place to start for him being on his own.

----------


## G-Potion

> I do believe having a team around him has helped push his character forward. I am a bit annoyed that editorial won't let him be a little violent. I think a good Detective Comics like solo series would be a good place to start for him being on his own.


Like Lobdell mentioned in his interview, editorial has been demanding that he makes the book darker and Jason more violent, so we'll see.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think it is very important for Jason to have a team that he is a steady part of since he never got the chance to have his own Teen Titans group like the other Robins and he's pretty much been a loner since his return. His being able to have that now was a good step for them to have taken because it allowed for him to think outside of himself for awhile, which was I think was an important step for the character. It allowed him a way to look at things from a fresh perspective and think about things instead of just constantly reacting to them. That's what I feel anyway.


Right, team book or solo, each covers a different aspect and pushes the character forward regardless. In a perfect world, once editorial realized that the team aspect has been sufficienly explored, they'll consider a solo to mine other possibilities.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Updated synopsis for Batman Ninja




> Batman Ninja takes a journey across the ages as Gorilla Grodd's time displacement machine transports many of Batman's worst enemies to feudal Japan - along with the Dark Knight and a few of his allies. The villains take over the forms of the feudal lords that rule the divided land, with the Joker taking the lead among the warring factions. As his traditional high-tech weaponry is exhausted almost immediately, Batman must rely on his intellect and his allies - including Catwoman and the extended Bat-family - to restore order to the land, and return to present-day Gotham City.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Like Lobdell mentioned in his interview, editorial has been demanding that he makes the book darker and Jason more violent, so we'll see.


Didn't editorial put the hold on him killing terrorists?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Like Lobdell mentioned in his interview, editorial has been demanding that he makes the book darker and Jason more violent, so we'll see.


I hope not too dark otherwise it could end in thing reverting back to the Jason's Post-Crisis days.

----------


## G-Potion

> Didn't editorial put the hold on him killing terrorists?


They did but apparently they changed their mind. This is what Lobdell said:




> When the series started, I understood they wanted to instill a “No Killing In Gotham City Rule.”  But when we got to Qurac, I had him killing terrorists and soldiers who were trying to kill him.  I got a note: “he can’t kill, remember?”  I was like, “he’s in the middle of a war!” The note came back: “doesn’t matter. He promised.” Honestly, I was a little embarrassed: part of putting him in the middle of the war was so that I thought I could write a sort of Jason Unbound! So now I have him in the middle of a war and he can’t shoot any one. Sigh.
> 
> Lately I have gotten word to make the book grittier—darker—so maybe we will be seeing more of the more violent Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

> I hope not too dark otherwise it could end in thing reverting back to the Jason's Post-Crisis days.


I don't think he would. Post-Crisis days DC didn't know what to do with him but since N52, he's been going for 6 years as a hero. And other medias like Injustice also see him as such. Also if Lobdell is at the helm, the characterization of Jason is in good hand.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think he would. Post-Crisis days DC didn't know what to do with him but since N52, he's been going for 6 years as a hero. And other medias like Injustice also see him as such. Also if Lobdell is at the helm, the characterization of Jason is in good hand.


I just hope the editors don't interfere where they're not needed that's often the reason why writer actually hate their job. The great Chris Claremont got short changed by Marvel and Jack Kirby by both companies and that led to some nasty falling out.

----------


## G-Potion

> I just hope the editors don't interfere where they're not needed that's often the reason why writer actually hate their job. The great Chris Claremont got short changed by Marvel and Jack Kirby by both companies and that led to some nasty falling out.


Yeah, what Lobdell said about editorial mandate had me shaking my head. But at least Rebirth has been better in that regards compared to N52, and current editors are actually letting him play with ideas. I'm cautiously optimistic for now.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, what Lobdell said about editorial mandate had me shaking my head. But at least Rebirth has been better in that regards compared to N52, and current editors are actually letting him play with ideas. I'm cautiously optimistic for now.


Yeah I can't believe it took a reboot give Jason the right characterisation he needed in contrast to his Post-Crisis days where everyone made him a psychopathic killer whose moral compass swung wildly depending on the writer. Bu that might because they hate him. But for now Lobdell is doing but he can't be there for long I hope the next writer will do Jason the same justice Lobdell did.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I love Soy's work but I still miss Medri




https://twitter.com/DenisMedri/statu...70236620488707

----------


## Aahz

At least I wouldn't mind if Jason got written a little darker and more serious again, in issues like the current one he comes of a little to goofy imo.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> At least I wouldn't mind if Jason got written a little darker and more serious again, in issues like the current one he comes of a little to goofy imo.


I think his goofiness currently is really just Jason trying to keep Biz unaware that he suspects something is going on more then it is anything else. Up until recently Jason hasn't been written that way. There are even moments here and there where his expression is more serious and his inner monologue almost always reads more serious as well.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm not gonna lie. I really like the idea of Jason and Artemis as a couple. Artemis seems to understand why Jason is the way he is better than any character in DC.

----------


## EMarie

> I think his goofiness currently is really just Jason trying to keep Biz unaware that he suspects something is going on more then it is anything else. Up until recently Jason hasn't been written that way. There are even moments here and there where his expression is more serious and his inner monologue almost always reads more serious as well.


I saw it more as Jason being uncomfortable because of his lack of dating experience and the surprise of what Artemis did. I do think he puts on a "everything is okay" vibe mostly because he doesn't know how to deal with what's going on.




> I'm not gonna lie. I really like the idea of Jason and Artemis as a couple. Artemis seems to understand why Jason is the way he is better than any character in DC.


I had more fun reading them in this issue than I've had reading a lot of recent pairings.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm not gonna lie. I really like the idea of Jason and Artemis as a couple. Artemis seems to understand why Jason is the way he is better than any character in DC.


It is a promising thing and one of the closest one can get to Batman and Wonder Woman pairing but it seems to work more because they are not Batman and Wonder Woman.

----------


## G-Potion

> I love Soy's work but I still miss Medri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/DenisMedri/statu...70236620488707


That is _good_!  :EEK!:

----------


## G-Potion

> I think his goofiness currently is really just Jason trying to keep Biz unaware that he suspects something is going on more then it is anything else. Up until recently Jason hasn't been written that way. There are even moments here and there where his expression is more serious and his inner monologue almost always reads more serious as well.


Yeah I feel the same. As well as his goofiness with Artemis. He's trying to give her a good time after all. I feel that he puts up a front for himself as well as other people. Whenever you get to read his inner monologue, he's the exact opposite of goofiness.

----------


## Jovos2099

i see a jason as he is now as calling back to the more brutal golden age characters like the the spider or the shadow who would just straight murder criminals   also  the dual wielding guns which is made extra by the fact batman was inspired in part by those characters does  anyone else agree?

----------


## G-Potion

> i see a jason as he is now as calling back to the more brutal golden age characters like the the spider or the shadow who would just straight murder criminals   also  the dual wielding guns which is made extra by the fact batman was inspired in part by those characters does  anyone else agree?


How do you mean "as he is now"? Wouldn't your description be closer to Post Crisis Jason?

----------


## Jovos2099

sorry i meant Jason's   characters as a whole

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I saw it more as Jason being uncomfortable because of his lack of dating experience and the surprise of what Artemis did. I do think he puts on a "everything is okay" vibe mostly because he doesn't know how to deal with what's going on.


I believe Aahz was referring to Jason's general goofy attitude in not just this issue, which had mostly to do with his awkwardness with the date itself, but in others since Biz has gotten smart and that's why my response was worded that way. In general Jason isn't the type to play the empty-headed goof but he seems to be doing so a lot whenever Biz is around although his inner monologues clearly show that its all an act on his part.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm not very familiar with other team books. Is that very common to change cast?


There is no team of DC I can think of that really ran for a long time without some change of the cast, some times it is a slow change (with members leaving or joining one at a time) sometime almost the whole cast changes at once (that's usually combined with a relaunch). 

Recently it was for example announced that the Justice League and Titans teams will get a major change May.

----------


## EMarie

> I believe Aahz was referring to Jason's general goofy attitude in not just this issue, which had mostly to do with his awkwardness with the date itself, but in others since Biz has gotten smart and that's why my response was worded that way. In general Jason isn't the type to play the empty-headed goof but he seems to be doing so a lot whenever Biz is around although his inner monologues clearly show that its all an act on his part.


Thanks for clearing that up. It might also be partly out of guilt. Jason told Artemis that Bizarro overworked himself to please him. Bizarro "died" to protect them and is giving Jason all this stuff while stretching himself thin. If he calls Bizarro out he seems ungrateful and without proof he's grasping at straws. If he waits Bizarro could slip up or tell Jason himself.

Do you think he told Artemis about the Ma Gunn stuff ?

----------


## Aahz

> I believe Aahz was referring to Jason's general goofy attitude in not just this issue, which had mostly to do with his awkwardness with the date itself, but in others since Biz has gotten smart and that's why my response was worded that way. In general Jason isn't the type to play the empty-headed goof but he seems to be doing so a lot whenever Biz is around although his inner monologues clearly show that its all an act on his part.


I'm just not a fan of him getting belittled by Artemis, and have in general the feeling that Jason isn't really doing and achieving much in the book at the moment.

Here it was again Artemis who apparently came up with the plan for the fake date. 

Jason is apparently trying to erase crime in Gotham, but since this mostly happens off panel (or at as short side story), has no real effect out side of his book and Bizzarro seems to do the planing (or to make it at least very easy for him with all the super tech) it doesn't real feel like something big.

----------


## G-Potion

> Here it was again Artemis who apparently came up with the plan for the fake date.


I think in this instance it has more to do with Artemis being more earnest to solve the problem while Jason prefers to observe first. Her openness allows Bizarro to correctly guess what she's thinking in his thought balloons while he's mostly unable to say anything about Jason in particular.

----------


## EMarie

> I think in this instance it has more to do with Artemis being more earnest to solve the problem while Jason prefers to observe first. Her openness allows Bizarro to correctly guess what she's thinking in his thought balloons while he's mostly unable to say anything about Jason in particular.


True. I got the impression his paranoia with their date had to do with whether Artemis would bring it up. He mainly seems concerned if Jason knows anything. Since Jason has no real proof it doesn't make sense to confront Bizarro yet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm just not a fan of him getting belittled by Artemis, and have in general the feeling that Jason isn't really doing and achieving much in the book at the moment.


Artemis may have came up with the plan to get them away from Biz for a bit but Jason was the one who suggested they go to the Bat cave so they could have a private conversation so no the plan wasn't ALL Artemis's idea. Personally, I see what's going on here as Jason being a typical Bat in that he is obviously playing things close to his chest and studying the situation before he makes a move. He knows something is up with Biz but he's allowing Artemis to be the one that Biz is pinning all his suspicions on by seemingly not noticing the problem and by staying silent. She's being the distraction, whether its intentional or not, here so that Jason can quietly watch and analyze Biz and so he can piece together the clues he might be picking up.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The monkey paw closes a finger....








> DC DESIGNER SERIES STATUES
> 
> ·Red Hood by Kenneth Rocafort

----------


## Tony Stark

double post.

----------


## oasis1313

> The monkey paw closes a finger....


That is amazing.  I want one.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I think in this instance it has more to do with Artemis being more earnest to solve the problem while Jason prefers to observe first. Her openness allows Bizarro to correctly guess what she's thinking in his thought balloons while he's mostly unable to say anything about Jason in particular.


I have to say I'm a little happier we're going the route letting Artemis take a direct approach and Jason taking observer. He is more than capable of planning out his actions and practicing patience when the time calls, something that DCs tried very hard to rewrite with the whole "rash reckless robin" idea. Both Artemis and Jason react logically and reasonably, all this does is show they have different styles dealing with a common issue and Artemis is definitely a good contrast personality against Jason who technically is from the detective brood.

----------


## EMarie

> I have to say I'm a little happier we're going the route letting Artemis take a direct approach and Jason taking observer. He is more than capable of planning out his actions and practicing patience when the time calls, something that DCs tried very hard to rewrite with the whole "rash reckless robin" idea. Both Artemis and Jason react logically and reasonably, all this does is show they have different styles dealing with a common issue and Artemis is definitely a good contrast personality against Jason who technically is from the detective brood.


Ditto. It makes more sense when you think about it too. Artemis saw Akila lose it twice, the only reason she was hesitant to act the second time was because of her guilt over killing her. Bizarro is showing warning signs and she wants to do something before it's too late. Jason not only has the detective background by he rushed in to save his mom letting emotion overrule him in the past. If they blindly rush into this they could make it worse and he knows it. Artemis seems to know it too since she set this all up.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ditto. It makes more sense when you think about it too. Artemis saw Akila lose it twice, the only reason she was hesitant to act the second time was because of her guilt over killing her. Bizarro is showing warning signs and she wants to do something before it's too late. Jason not only has the detective background by he rushed in to save his mom letting emotion overrule him in the past. If they blindly rush into this they could make it worse and he knows it. Artemis seems to know it too since she set this all up.


Wha I haven't thought about that. Nice observation!

----------


## OBrianTallent

> The monkey paw closes a finger....


I love this!

----------


## RedBird

> Ditto. It makes more sense when you think about it too. Artemis saw Akila lose it twice, the only reason she was hesitant to act the second time was because of her guilt over killing her. Bizarro is showing warning signs and she wants to do something before it's too late. Jason not only has the detective background by he rushed in to save his mom letting emotion overrule him in the past. If they blindly rush into this they could make it worse and he knows it. Artemis seems to know it too since she set this all up.


Nice
Those are actually really good points. 

Not that I don't appreciate the subtle character development that Lobdell has been putting out, but I wouldn't mind if he drew a little attention to these factors as well to better highlight the reluctance in our heroes. I just hope ultimately that the finale or payoff to this story is just as good or at least emotionally charged to warrant the long game that Lobdell has played out here. The mystery just keeps growing and I'm wanting more and more answers. I mean, at least I am still invested but I kinda want this story to either come to its conclusion soon or take a backseat to some other plot lines, preferably ones that don't feel like crossover fillers. 

Sidenote 1: Did you guys notice that the villian was still sitting in the bar when Artemis and Jason were hauling Biz off the floor. Am I the only one confused about that?

Sidenote 2: Uh, is it just me or is Jason the second person texting Dick in the latest preview for Nightwing? I'm always on the lookout for those classic spit curls.

----------


## EMarie

> Wha I haven't thought about that. Nice observation!


Thanks !




> Nice
> Those are actually really good points. 
> 
> Not that I don't appreciate the subtle character development that Lobdell has been putting out, but I wouldn't mind if he drew a little attention to these factors as well to better highlight the reluctance in our heroes. I just hope ultimately that the finale or payoff to this story is just as good or at least emotionally charged to warrant the long game that Lobdell has played out here. The mystery just keeps growing and I'm wanting more and more answers. I mean, at least I am still invested but I kinda want this story to either come to its conclusion soon or take a backseat to some other plot lines, preferably ones that don't feel like crossover fillers. 
> 
> Sidenote 1: Did you guys notice that the villian was still sitting in the bar when Artemis and Jason were hauling Biz off the floor. Am I the only one confused about that?


Thanks.

Lobdell did say it was going to get darker or grittier. I forget the phrasing. I suspect he'll have it get really emotional. It feels like it's building up for the next arc. Random theory: Bizarro snaps under the pressure of the kryptonite and the new guy. Artemis keeps bringing up how much more powerful Bizarro is getting which isn't great given his current state. During his break down Artemis and Jason try to calm him down. I was thinking Bizarro would accidentally hurt Jason but didn't a solicit suggest something happens to Artemis?

Side note 1: I noticed I just couldn't tell if they could see him or if they were ignoring him. Was that what confused you?

----------


## RedBird

> During his break down Artemis and Jason try to calm him down. I was thinking Bizarro would accidentally hurt Jason but didn't a solicit suggest something happens to Artemis?


Ooh, which solicit is that? I suppose if its about Biz hurting Artemis, that might act as the final catalyst that gives Jason and Arty and excuse to really delve into what the hell is wrong with him. 





> Side note 1: I noticed I just couldn't tell if they could see him or if they were ignoring him. Was that what confused you?


Yeah pretty much. Typically, considering how Biz looks wildly around himself, I would have suspected that the perp was nowhere to be seen, but low and behold, there he is drinking away in the last frame. It was just difficult to tell whether or not he was there but invisible (another suspected power?) or if he was just ignored and unsuspected by Arty and Jay, which feels a tad ignorant.

----------


## EMarie

> Ooh, which solicit is that? I suppose if its about Biz hurting Artemis, that might act as the final catalyst that gives Jason and Arty and excuse to really delve into what the hell is wrong with him.


It's #21 but it looks like the cat is out of the bag anyway.

_Looking to make his mark on Gotham City's crowded underworld, Red Hood infiltrates the Iceberg Lounge in an attempt to further annoy the Penguin. But it might be the Penguin who gets the drop on Red Hood this time. Plus, the truth about Bizarro's condition finally comes out-and the consequences could be catastrophic for Artemis!_




> Yeah pretty much. Typically, considering how Biz looks wildly around himself, I would have suspected that the perp was nowhere to be seen, but low and behold, there he is drinking away in the last frame. It was just difficult to tell whether or not he was there but invisible (another suspected power?) or if he was just ignored and unsuspected by Arty and Jay, which feels a tad ignorant.


I could see it either way. We don't know what his powers are. Super speed? Telepathy? A combo of powers? Bizarro makes it sound like the guy contacted him by doing something to get his attention.

Why? They agreed to act normal and Artemis asks if Bizarro was meeting anyone there. They might suspect something but it's not the time or place. Bizarro or the guy might flip out. If they don't know the guy it's probably wise not to engage someone that likely knocked Bizarro out and is causally drinking behind them.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sidenote 2: Uh, is it just me or is Jason the second person texting Dick in the latest preview for Nightwing? I'm always on the lookout for those classic spit curls.


Our Jaybird for sure.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> It's #21 but it looks like the cat is out of the bag anyway.
> 
> _Looking to make his mark on Gotham City's crowded underworld, Red Hood infiltrates the Iceberg Lounge in an attempt to further annoy the Penguin. But it might be the Penguin who gets the drop on Red Hood this time. Plus, the truth about Bizarro's condition finally comes out-and the consequences could be catastrophic for Artemis!_


I didn't read it as Bizarro personally hurting Artemis, but damn, if it's the case then it kinda speaks volume about how big of a priority Jason is to him.

----------


## Aioros22

> Ditto. It makes more sense when you think about it too. Artemis saw Akila lose it twice, the only reason she was hesitant to act the second time was because of her guilt over killing her. Bizarro is showing warning signs and she wants to do something before it's too late. Jason not only has the detective background by he rushed in to save his mom letting emotion overrule him in the past. If they blindly rush into this they could make it worse and he knows it. Artemis seems to know it too since she set this all up.


Quite the valid character point. 

I don`t mind Jason being the observant in the scene because it starts with Artemis actually pointing out that he`s only pretending to be nonchalant. He`s known Bizarro was up to something the moment Batwoman entered the scene!

----------


## Aioros22

> Nice
> Those are actually really good points. 
> 
> Not that I don't appreciate the subtle character development that Lobdell has been putting out, but I wouldn't mind if he drew a little attention to these factors as well to better highlight the reluctance in our heroes. I just hope ultimately that the finale or payoff to this story is just as good or at least emotionally charged to warrant the long game that Lobdell has played out here. The mystery just keeps growing and I'm wanting more and more answers. I mean, at least I am still invested but I kinda want this story to either come to its conclusion soon or take a backseat to some other plot lines, preferably ones that don't feel like crossover fillers. 
> 
> Sidenote 1: Did you guys notice that the villian was still sitting in the bar when Artemis and Jason were hauling Biz off the floor. Am I the only one confused about that?
> 
> Sidenote 2: Uh, is it just me or is Jason the second person texting Dick in the latest preview for Nightwing? I'm always on the lookout for those classic spit curls.


Sidenote 1: Yup, Solitary is in the background saluting with a drink and looking at them in the final page when they walk Bizarro out. He`s not seen when they arrive at the scene and technically there wasn`t an angle towards the table he`s seen sitting at in that final page but you can always make a case that they just can`t see him OR he comes and goes as he pleases. 

Anyone notice the Arkham Knight callout? "And I said, Screw You, Bat-Freak!" and the Bar sign? 

Sidenote 2: Absolutely  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

For those wondering what the texto message lulla is about..



Always Sassy, this kid.

----------


## Aioros22

> At least I wouldn't mind if Jason got written a little darker and more serious again, in issues like the current one he comes of a little to goofy imo.


That`s apples and oranges. The present issue is not a situation where he would be darker and make sense. If you make him a brooding dude, you taking away parts of the character that also shine, like showing Artemis a place in Gotham that could be considered "beautiful" despite, as Jason chims in, there being people eating in trash cans some blocks away.

----------


## RedBird

> For those wondering what the texto message lulla is about..
> 
> 
> 
> Always Sassy, this kid.


God I hope that that question was due to Jason planning on teepeeing the batmobile XD

On a sidenote I really do love this art and the general retro throwback flashback in Nightwing. Its really getting me nostalgic and taking me back to my favourite, late 70s to the whole 80s era of Batman. With lil Robin Jason and early Nightwing/Discowing.

----------


## G-Potion

> God I hope that that question was due to Jason planning on teepeeing the batmobile XD


This needs to happen. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone notice the Arkham Knight callout? "And I said, Screw You, Bat-Freak!" and the Bar sign?


So that's where it's from. I thought it sounded familiar. XD

----------


## Aioros22

Haha Discowing is my favorite Nigthwing. 

This ties nicely with the fact that Dick did give his number to Jason after their first mission together on "Batman" in the older Continuity. I`m not sure if that`s ever been referenced again after Jason came back but someone is doing his homework.

----------


## Aahz

> 


So is young Jason now back in canon?

Btw. Dick dropped out of Hudson University way before Jasons first appearence. By the time Jason appeared he was allready a full time member of the New Teen Titans for quite some time (almost 30 issues). So the research the writer did was not that great.

----------


## Aioros22

The younger teenager Jason who became Robin during Dick`s transition was never out of Canon and any research in this case would never be point by point exactly the same since the continuity isn`t the same. The mention is how a writer brought up something that was written in the `80s pertaining the two characters and seldom mentioned hence. 

This segment almost easily fits during Judas Contract with the difference being, Dick wasn`t out of University by then but that is the writer`s preferance for the setting he`s aiming at.

----------


## Aahz

> The younger teenager Jason who became Robin during Dick`s transition was never out of Canon


In "Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth #1" it was still said that he was 16 when stole the tires of the Batmobil. Here he looks younger.

----------


## EMarie

> I didn't read it as Bizarro personally hurting Artemis, but damn, if it's the case then it kinda speaks volume about how big of a priority Jason is to him.


I wasn't trying to say Bizarro would intentionally hurt her. More like he would freak out and do it unknowingly when she tried to help him.

As for Jason's age when he was Robin I think Lobdell said he doesn't know. Probably because the editors keep changing it. During the Robin War tie in he tells Tim he was 17 when he became Robin. In Early RHATO they seem to imply he became Robin when be was younger and before editorial change it in the trade Roy said he was Robin for two years. 15/16 just seems like the age he'd die at.

Anyone notice how Jason's picture is bruised up on Dicks' phone?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ditto. It makes more sense when you think about it too. Artemis saw Akila lose it twice, the only reason she was hesitant to act the second time was because of her guilt over killing her. Bizarro is showing warning signs and she wants to do something before it's too late. Jason not only has the detective background by he rushed in to save his mom letting emotion overrule him in the past. If they blindly rush into this they could make it worse and he knows it. Artemis seems to know it too since she set this all up.


I'm a little late to the party but those were some excellent points nonetheless.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> God I hope that that question was due to Jason planning on teepeeing the batmobile XD


My too. I could see a young Jason Todd wanting to do that to get back at Bruce for something. I also love the call back to the split curls there and the overall nostalgic vibe of the art there as well.

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## Aioros22

> In "Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth #1" it was still said that he was 16 when stole the tires of the Batmobil. Here he looks younger.


They can`t even pinpoint Dick`s age with every reboot. Looking 13 or 16 isn`t something a writer will hinge at and I doubt there was any notes from the writer. 

All it matters is that young-er Jason is there and active.

----------


## Aioros22

Tho I am aware the current state of affairs is a night mare for the Timeline/ Continuity buff  :Wink:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That Jason doesn't look particularly younger either, he's just sporting the double curl instead of the haircut he uses on recent flashbacks shown in RHATO.

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## G-Potion

I've been thinking, with the Outlaws formed by circumstances and maintained by their feelings for each other, would their be a point where their views on morality would clash? If DC wanting Jason to go darker means he'd kill again, how'd it affect Bizarro and Artemis? Especially Bizarro since we don't know how his mentality would be after this arc. Would he revert back? Would Jason still have to make an example to keep Bizarro's power in check?

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## EMarie

I guess it would depend on the circumstances. Artemis asked Jason how he operated as soon as she knew he wasn't a villain. She has killed though. Artemis killed Akila, in old canon she killed OMACs which had innocent people trapped inside. I don't remember if she knew that before hand but she stood by it afterwards because the OMACs were killing the Amazons. If she did nothing they wouldn't have survived. 

Jason killing would depend on why he did it. To protect them? To save an innocent? To stop the bad guy? The only reason they don't kill, or Artemis doesn't kill in Gotham, is because Jason has a deal with Bruce. They know taking a life would be bad for him and respect the agreement. Bizarro learned not to because Jason made the effort to teach him to be more careful. I think he's learned that his friends have killed since he changed.

Are you asking if the shock of Jason killing would revert him back or if he'd act differently to seeing it? And what do you mean "make an example to keep Bizarro's power in check"? Because the first thought that came to mind was Jason shooting Pup Pup and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that.

----------


## G-Potion

> Are you asking if the shock of Jason killing would revert him back or if he'd act differently to seeing it? And what do you mean "make an example to keep Bizarro's power in check"? Because the first thought that came to mind was Jason shooting Pup Pup and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that.


Nah I meant if Bizarro would revert back to his old self after the Kryptonite juice wears off, whom as the time Jason had to make an example for by not killing. Then again, he did tell Bizarro to go wild against Akila so... But so far it has been Bizarro following Jason's directive. What if he has developed to the point that he has his own take on morality?

What I'm curious about is if there would be a circumstance when the team members feel differently about whether to kill or not.

----------


## EMarie

I don't think Jason told Bizarro to let loose to kill Akila just to give them a chance since she was basically a demi-goddess.

Bizarro does have his own take on morality. He kidnapped Ma Gunn and shrunk her into a bottle in the name of protecting Jason. He taunted the DET. crew--potentially ruining ally support Jason might need in the future--got them taken to the SS to get what he needed and refuses to tell his friends what's happening. He's spying on them and seems to think only he knows how to handle the situation. Artemis has also pointed out the flaws in his thinking.

I think the biggest reaction would be if Bizarro killed.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think Jason told Bizarro to let loose to kill Akila just to give them a chance since she was basically a demi-goddess.
> 
> Bizarro does have his own take on morality. He kidnapped Ma Gunn and shrunk her into a bottle in the name of protecting Jason. He taunted the DET. crew--potentially ruining ally support Jason might need in the future--got them taken to the SS to get what he needed and refuses to tell his friends what's happening. He's spying on them and seems to think only he knows how to handle the situation. Artemis has also pointed out the flaws in his thinking.
> 
> I think the biggest reaction would be if Bizarro killed.


Yes I agree. I wonder how much of what he did was his own decision and how much was influenced by the side effect as well as Kryptonite. And in the case that he goes back to the old Bizarro self, would he retain that?

Yep Bizarro killing would be a big deal.

----------


## The Dying Detective

I heard that not only will Young Justice be more mature. They will also be incorporating things from DC Rebirth. Maybe they will include the Outlaws what do you think would you want to see them there tackling metahuman traficking?

----------


## Aahz

> I heard that not only will Young Justice be more mature. They will also be incorporating things from DC Rebirth. Maybe they will include the Outlaws what do you think would you want to see them there tackling metahuman traficking?


It would probaly make more sense to put him with Arsenals (the not cloned one) team, he should parobaly be roughly their age in that universe.

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## The Dying Detective

> It would probably make more sense to put him with Arsenals (the not cloned one) team, he should parobably be roughly their age in that universe.


Original Arsenal will be rejoining the Team in Season 3 so not likely Jason would be joining his team which broke up at the end of Season 2 off screen. If they want to use the Rebirth incarnation of the Outlaws it's going to be hard Match the Young Justice Bizarro equivalent is pure unstoppable rage. But bringing in Artemis shouldn't be too hard I think. Jason who died off screen could be brought back through the Lazarus Pits maybe as an attempt by the Light to give themselves an edge over the Team.But he escapes and becomes this wild card that's aligned with neither side.

----------


## Aioros22

They`ll bring Jason in sooner or later, I don`t care what they say. They are well aware of the response for him to be on the show and the need to create a Arsenal clone, even using sequential elements lifted from Under The Red Hood tells me they have at least looked at the material for the prospect. 

Making the show darker and more mature is already a give away, they just want to catch the audience off-guard in the internet age.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They`ll bring Jason in sooner or later, I don`t care what they say. They are well aware of the response for him to be on the show and the need to create a Arsenal clone, even using sequential elements lifted from Under The Red Hood tells me they have at least looked at the material for the prospect. 
> 
> Making the show darker and more mature is already a give away, they just want to catch the audience off-guard in the internet age.


Too bad they put Jason on the Team only to kill him off off-screen though not to mention Donna Troy was listed as a member but she left off-screen as well. You must have some good sources to know that the creators are looking at Under the Red Hood to use in Young Justice.

----------


## The Dying Detective

You know I was thinking about that old Marvel vs DC crossover and thought it was pity that Jason was dead when it happened. I wonder which Marvel character would be a good person for Jason to fight against? My choices are the Punisher or the Winter Soldier (if he was around then). Anyone care to consider who Jason could have fought if he was resurrected when Marvel vs DC was published? Then again Nightwing was left out of the conflict too along with more than half the DC Universe.

----------


## CPSparkles

After Talia the term MILF from Jason triggers Damian

----------


## G-Potion

http://artofhau.tumblr.com/post/170841891632

----------


## The Dying Detective

> http://artofhau.tumblr.com/post/170841891632


Maybe they should pair Donna and Jason together in Young Justice if they turn up there. Some stuff for Donna were complete but they could not use her by the time they got the okay. This maybe their chance to use her and Jason like they never could in the old seasons.

----------


## RedBird

> http://artofhau.tumblr.com/post/170841891632


Lovely, this almost makes me miss the 1950s 'greaser style' that Jason had for a while in countdown, complete with curly/wavy hair tufts.

----------


## Aioros22

> Too bad they put Jason on the Team only to kill him off off-screen though not to mention Donna Troy was listed as a member but she left off-screen as well. You must have some good sources to know that the creators are looking at Under the Red Hood to use in Young Justice


I don`t have a source that they are looking at it, it`s just easy to tell when they have. There`s a sequence where Arsenal (the original article) is using a rocket launcher at a building targetting Luthor. That`s straight up lifted from the Jason and Black Mask scene.

----------


## Aioros22

And since we are talking about shipping, here`s a rather unexpected one:


https://jan-jane.deviantart.com/


https://ltheravenl.tumblr.com/


Hello demon, it`s me ya boi
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/jacobdel...red-x/?lp=true

----------


## G-Potion

> And since we are talking about shipping, here`s a rather unexpected one:


For some reason that one is kinda popular with the roleplayers.

----------


## Assam

I really do love nerdy Jay. 

nerd.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

You guys recognize these people? I think Jason is in there but not sure. 


Soy has been showing sketches of the lady quite a few time. If she's not Artemis she does look like the one in this.

----------


## EMarie

> I really do love nerdy Jay.


Nerdy Jason has made some appearances. His eagerness in meeting Kori had him asking a lot of questions on how her ship worked and studying the tech later on. Jason even made notes. 




> You guys recognize these people? I think Jason is in there but not sure. 
> 
> Soy has been showing sketches of the lady quite a few time. If she's not Artemis she does look like the one in this.


Soy said he was just sketching and he had no one in mind.

----------


## G-Potion

> Soy said he was just sketching and he had no one in mind.


He did? I saw it on his weibo so I probably missed his comment.

----------


## EMarie

It was either on his Twitter or instagram. I forget how many figures in he was but someone was curious and asked.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've been thinking, with the Outlaws formed by circumstances and maintained by their feelings for each other, would their be a point where their views on morality would clash? If DC wanting Jason to go darker means he'd kill again, how'd it affect Bizarro and Artemis? Especially Bizarro since we don't know how his mentality would be after this arc. Would he revert back? Would Jason still have to make an example to keep Bizarro's power in check?


When Jason and Artemis met it was clear that Artemis had no compunctions against killing when necessary so she's hardly in a position where she would or can criticise or turn against Jason for killing at all. It would be messed up if she did. As for Bizarro it is going to be a tricky thing to say the least.

----------


## Aioros22

> I really do love nerdy Jay. 
> 
> nerd.jpg


It goes so well with his Teathrical flare. 

"I knew it was you Pyg". 

"How? I`ve no mask and I am dressed the same wa.."

"No, no..n-o. You uncultured swine"

----------


## magpieM

> This guy being the mysterious stalker does put a question on how big of a role Willis is gonna play.


Actually I never thought Willis could be so capable like this guy. I guess he might get involved in the story in other ways...

I know nothing about the 'Solitary' character. When I googled it I just got some results related to 'Solitaire', who doesn't look like the one I'm looking for. Is 'Solitary' a brand new character in DC? Did anyone see him before in other DC books?

Basically he can go anywhere, seeing and hearing anything like a transparent figure...

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/lab5studios/

Doing Soy's design justice.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/lab5studios/

Prints available here!


[img]https://ih0.*********.net/image.463669317.9564/flat,1000x1000,075,f.u1.jpg[/img]

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## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/lab5studios/



[img]https://ih0.*********.net/image.463667336.1150/flat,1000x1000,075,f.u1.jpg[/img]

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## Aioros22

> Actually I never thought Willis could be so capable like this guy. I guess he might get involved in the story in other ways...
> 
> I know nothing about the 'Solitary' character. When I googled it I just got some results related to 'Solitaire', who doesn't look like the one I'm looking for. Is 'Solitary' a brand new character in DC? Did anyone see him before in other DC books?
> 
> Basically he can go anywhere, seeing and hearing anything like a transparent figure...


Wills Todd is card blanche. True, Starlin end up saying via flashbacks that he was a small time thief that got executed by his own boss (Two-Face) and subquent brief panels since then never steered away from it but Loedbell is going with the original intent by Max Collins who had the idea of Wills still being alive and having an antagonist role. The idea was scrapped when Starlin replaced the later. 

So I say it`s fair game to paint Collins any way they see fit, especially after reboots. Even if Solitary ends up not being him, Wills can still be used as the right hand man because of his connection with Jason. As long the payoff is dramatically and narratively powerful and well written, I`m all for it. 

I still think "Solitary" is playing mirrors. Figuratively.

----------


## Aioros22

Man, almost 700 pages and still the second biggest long running Appreciation Thread of the Forum? 

Let`s Go!

----------


## G-Potion

I swear I'll finish my current art in time to get in on page 700.  :Cool:

----------


## EMarie

We never got an unbiased look at Willis. Jason called him a screwed up which may be true in his home life. But we don't know what he was like on the job especially if Lobdell is going back to the old canon stuff. If Willis is alive he's already crafty enough to fool a lot of people. I don't think he's Solitary.

I think Solitary is new, I'm not sure he'd be the stalker though. Why hide the stalkers' face if it's a new character? Hiding it makes it look like a reveal is happening.

----------


## G-Potion

Long read but very thoughtful analysis. Some instances I didn't even suspect were Bizarro's machination but it does make sense now.

https://exploringthetimelab.blogspot...hato.html#more

----------


## adrikito

Confirmed that Jason is the Injustice Fake Batman:

Injustice Jason Todd.jpg

I know.. We all know that..

Damian, Animal Man and Vixen are trying to Stop Ra´s plans and apparently Jason tried to stop them.. But after heard Damian words he says that he never wanted see innocent people dying..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Confirmed that Jason is the Injustice Fake Batman:
> 
> Injustice Jason Todd.jpg
> 
> I know.. We all know that..
> 
> Damian, Animal Man and Vixen are trying to Stop Ra´s plans and apparently Jason tried to stop them.. But after heard Damian words he says that he never wanted see innocent people dying..


I don't hate Jason but this outcome for me as a creator was way too predictable just like Arkham Knight.

----------


## G-Potion

All Im seeing is white streak. _Hell yeah_.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> All Im seeing is white streak. _Hell yeah_.


How did he get that white streak in the first place anyway?

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't hate Jason but this outcome for me as a creator was way too predictable just like Arkham Knight.


I think just like Arkham Knight, the point was never to leave the players/readers guessing. It's the experience the character went through and how he moves forward. How Jason later becomes his Injustice self is what I really care about.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I think just like Arkham Knight, the point was never to leave the players/readers guessing. It's the experience the character went through and how he moves forward. How Jason later becomes his Injustice self is what I really care about.


Okay that's fair enough still I think the game might have benefited a little better had they not chosen Jason to be the Arkham Knight. And yeah I curious why the Injustice Jason is working for his Ra's al Ghul who he knows is genocidal.

----------


## G-Potion

> Okay that's fair enough still I think the game might have benefited a little better had they not chosen Jason to be the Arkham Knight. And yeah I curious why the Injustice Jason is working for his Ra's al Ghul who he knows is genocidal.


If its anyone else other than Jason, it would just be a random villain dressing like a Bat to taunt Bruce. It lacks the emotional impact, which was the reason Rocksteady chose Jason in the first place. As they said, they wanted a story that affected Bruce the most. If not his parents, then nothing comes close to Jason's tragedy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If its anyone else other than Jason, it would just be a random villain dressing like a Bat to taunt Bruce. It lacks the emotional impact, which was the reason Rocksteady chose Jason in the first place. As they said, they wanted a story that affected Bruce the most. If not his parents, then nothing comes close to Jason's tragedy.


Okay that does make sense and true whether as the new Red Hood or the Arkham Knight Jason is always the second worst thing to use to hurt Batman on an emotional and moral level. As long as it can surpass and not completely imitate Under the Hood.

----------


## adrikito

> I don't hate Jason but this outcome for me as a creator was way too predictable just like Arkham Knight.


Yeah.. But I like to see that finally he is like in his injustice ending.. I hope that this is the end of his FakeBatman mode..

In that ending Jason said that *I FIGHT FOR THE PEOPLE*... Help Ra´s was not a good choice for this.. Because he is using Amazo to attack *THE WEAK, THE INNOCENT, THE PEOPLE WHO CAN´T PROTECT THEMSELVES AND WANT ONE SAVIOR* those who Jason want to save..

----------


## gregpersons

Yes to Jason with white streak + red domino mask.

"Red Hood" needs a redesign, imo. He should get a longer brown coat — basically the Knightmare Batman suit + the red bad insignia — and have a red hoodie underneath it, instead of a shiny red helmet. The hoodie includes bat ears since, in the main DCU, he's basically on the team.

And he should have a team-up book with Dick. 

Nightwing & Red Hood. The Boy Wonder and the Gotham Robin Hood.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah.. But I like to see that finally he is like in his injustice ending.. I hope that this is the end of his FakeBatman mode..
> 
> In that ending Jason said that *I FIGHT FOR THE PEOPLE*... Help Ra´s was not a good choice for this.. Because he is using Amazo to attack *THE WEAK, THE INNOCENT, THE PEOPLE WHO CAN´T PROTECT THEMSELVES AND WANT ONE SAVIOR* those who Jason want to save..


It is questionable why the Injustice Jason is working with his Ra's al Ghul who is just as genocidal as the main universe one. And you know it's a shame Red Hood's game ending isn't the canon ending it's muchh better than either the Superman and Batman endings.

----------


## adrikito

> It is questionable why the Injustice Jason is working with his Ra's al Ghul who is just as genocidal as the main universe one. And you know it's a shame Red Hood's game ending isn't the canon ending it's muchh better than either the Superman and Batman endings.


Is not canon but... I saw the ending as the character justice and opinion about Batman and the Regime..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Is not canon but... I saw the ending as the character justice and opinion about Batman and the Regime..


Well in many respects if a third party defeated Brainiac it does make some sense that the Injustice Batman and Superman would fight each other with no end in sight so neither are the best choice to lead the wolrd in some respects.

----------


## G-Potion

> It is questionable why the Injustice Jason is working with his Ra's al Ghul who is just as genocidal as the main universe one. And you know it's a shame Red Hood's game ending isn't the canon ending it's muchh better than either the Superman and Batman endings.


Whichever ending is canon, it doesn't invalidate Jason's stance nor it makes his actions any different though.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't remember Ra's committing any other crimes on the scale of Amazo incident. Maybe Jason didn't know and only worked with Ra because of his gratitude towards him, and also Ra's vision has some good points, at least in theory, before he started going too far.

Injustice Jason  as the time of the game is not confirmed to be working with Ra. He only mentioned being saved by him so it's to be seen how it goes from this point in the comics.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Whichever ending is canon, it doesn't invalidate Jason's stance nor it makes his actions any different though.


That both the Injustice Batman and Superman are simply pigheaded fools? Of course not they stepped on a lot of lines in theeir world that it's no longer about helping people it's abut proving who is the better dictator.

----------


## RedBird

> Confirmed that Jason is the Injustice Fake Batman:
> 
> Attachment 62336
> 
> I know.. We all know that..
> 
> Damian, Animal Man and Vixen are trying to Stop Ra´s plans and apparently Jason tried to stop them.. But after heard Damian words he says that he never wanted see innocent people dying..


Yoooooooo, classic white streak and red domino  :Big Grin: 

Nice


Also....He again wears a mask under the mask? BRilliant Haha

----------


## Aahz

> I don't remember Ra's committing any other crimes on the scale of Amazo incident. Maybe Jason didn't know and only worked with Ra because of his gratitude towards him, and also Ra's vision has some good points, at least in theory, before he started going too far.
> 
> Injustice Jason  as the time of the game is not confirmed to be working with Ra. He only mentioned being saved by him so it's to be seen how it goes from this point in the comics.


We know anyway not much about Jasons past in that universe, and even in the origianl comics it is due to COIE hard to say (iirc he never met Ras as Robin post crisis, and pre crisis he iirc met im only in the last story arc since Bruce killed Ras some time before Jason became Robin).

----------


## G-Potion

> That both the Injustice Batman and Superman are simply pigheaded fools? Of course not they stepped on a lot of lines in theeir world that it's no longer about helping people it's abut proving who is the better dictator.


That's one way to put it as how he sees them yes.  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's one way to put it as how he sees them yes.


All the more reason to wish Jaso's ending would be the canon ending of the game.

----------


## adrikito

> That both the Injustice Batman and Superman are simply pigheaded fools? Of course not they stepped on a lot of lines in theeir world that it's no longer about helping people it's abut proving who is the better dictator.


Because both are wrong, I choosed Kara as my favorite Injustice II character..

She is the only HOPE of this world..

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Because both are wrong, I choosed Kara as my favorite Injustice II character..
> 
> She is the only HOPE of this world..


I had that idea that Kara would be essential to stopping the infighting but no such luck.

----------


## G-Potion

So if Jason agrees to help Damian, just by association that means he'd potentially side with the regime. I remember few of his intros, with WW and Cyborg come to mind, they call him a traitor. Will be interesting to see how he jumps ship.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yoooooooo, classic white streak and red domino 
> 
> Nice
> 
> 
> Also....He again wears a mask under the mask? BRilliant Haha


And here I thought it couldn't get funnier than wearing a mask under the hood. Jason pls.  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> So if Jason agrees to help Damian, just by association that means he'd potentially side with the regime. I remember few of his intros, with WW and Cyborg come to mind, they call him a traitor. Will be interesting to see how he jumps ship.


It's obvious for the moment that Jason is not on the Regime's side so this  might lead him to joining them after turning against Ra's.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's obvious for the moment that Jason is not on the Regime's side so this  might lead him to joining them after turning against Ra's.


Yeah what I was thinking. He might side with Damian and subsequently the Regime but goes off on his own after that.

----------


## G-Potion

Then again, he also says things like "I'll bring your head to Batman" and "Same team, Dinah!". He does go around lol.

----------


## G-Potion

Some dialogs that suggest Jason left Regime side.

Red Hood: Call me the Red Hood. 
Wonder Woman: You're a traitor and a criminal! 
Red Hood: I don't see the downside.

Red Hood: I'm not with the Regime. 
Catwoman: Oh I'm sorry... murderer. 
Red Hood: You walk the grey line too, Selina.

Red Hood: Can't fight crime without cracking a few skulls. 
Cyborg: So why are you fighting me? 
Red Hood: The Regime cracked more than "a few".

Cyborg: Forget which side you're on? 
Red Hood: I'm my own boss now. 
Cyborg: It's time to put you down.

Cyborg: You turned on us, fast enough. 
Red Hood: I go my own way. 
Cyborg: That's a good way to get yourself killed.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah what I was thinking. He might side with Damian and subsequently the Regime but goes off on his own after that.


I can see Damian talking Jason into not only siding with them but also working to free the Injustice Superman.

----------


## Aahz

> I can see Damian talking Jason into not only siding with them but also working to free the Injustice Superman.


Btw. was Damian back in prison at the start of the game?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Btw. was Damian back in prison at the start of the game?


No Damian was in jail at the beginning of the Injustice 2 comic and was broken out and he never went back to jail after that from the way I see it.

----------


## G-Potion

> I can see Damian talking Jason into not only siding with them but also working to free the Injustice Superman.


That makes an interesting question. Superman was freed at the start of the game and it makes me wonder if Jason has or hasn't left by then.

----------


## adrikito

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THE 700th page JASON.

----------


## G-Potion

Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 

Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it's was so worth it.


Happy 700th page and a blessed Lunar New Year to you to too.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That makes an interesting question. Superman was freed at the start of the game and it makes me wonder if Jason has or hasn't left by then.


From the quotes you posted it sounded like Jason left the Regime faction long before the game even began.

----------


## Aioros22

> Confirmed that Jason is the Injustice Fake Batman:
> 
> Attachment 62336
> 
> I know.. We all know that..
> 
> Damian, Animal Man and Vixen are trying to Stop Ra´s plans and apparently Jason tried to stop them.. But after heard Damian words he says that he never wanted see innocent people dying..


Yaaassssssss!!

White Streak and Teathrical red mask are back just in time for the 700th page mark!

----------


## Aioros22

> It is questionable why the Injustice Jason is working with his Ra's al Ghul who is just as genocidal as the main universe one. And you know it's a shame Red Hood's game ending isn't the canon ending it's muchh better than either the Superman and Batman endings.


This is obviously before he becomes Red Hood so it might be that the Amazo incident being confirmed as part of Ras plot to cleanse the Earth is what will make him break off. There`s also other options, Grood`s conditioning, League conditioning, Jason himself having the desire to surpass and take Batman`s place in this whole mess...the possibilities are endless witout detracting from the actual Ending.

----------


## Aioros22

From the Vault!

Batman #415 - “Millennium” (1988) written by Jim Starlin
art by Jim Aparo, Mike DeCarlo, & Adrienne Roy. Despite my criticism of Starlin`s agenda is undeniable that he wrote some good Jason sequences and dialogue, This one has always been a favorite of mine because it mirrors almost to a T the level of thought of Winnick`s version, decades later. 

"They just don`t see the big picture". Chilling. The last panel by the next post? Stunning!

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

@t G

That looks awesome, I am continuely blown away by your color and thematic work. I am happy to announce that in this year of the Dog of 2018 we *will* collab on a Jason theme artwork! As soon I get some work done, I`ll talk with you and get some ideas rolling.

----------


## KC93

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it's was so worth it.


This is an amazing piece of artwork. You are extremely talented.

----------


## Alycat

I'm glad we finally got the Jason reveal out of the way in Injustice. Now it hopefully gets more interesting, especially his transition to Red Hood.




> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.


This is wonderful!

----------


## adrikito

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.


This is one AMAZING fanart.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Some dialogs that suggest Jason left Regime side.
> 
> Red Hood: Call me the Red Hood. 
> Wonder Woman: You're a traitor and a criminal! 
> Red Hood: I don't see the downside.
> 
> Red Hood: I'm not with the Regime. 
> Catwoman: Oh I'm sorry... murderer. 
> Red Hood: You walk the grey line too, Selina.
> ...


He also has a few quotes with younger heroes like Blue Beetle and Firestorm about Batman sending them to him for training. So I'm guessing that Jason eventually betrayed the Regime, joined Batman's side only because he was against Superman and them went on his own way, though Batman still trusts him to an extent. 

It would be nice to see Jason train the newbies and Kara.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason as field trainer is an excellent nod - which is par the reason I enjoyed immensely his one shot with Duke - because it just clicks and makes sense. 

If there`s anyone that Batman_ can_ vouch that would beat newbies in about the dangers of the job, that`s our boy.

----------


## TheCape

> He also has a few quotes with younger heroes like Blue Beetle and Firestorm about Batman sending them to him for training. So I'm guessing that Jason eventually betrayed the Regime, joined Batman's side only because he was against Superman and them went on his own way, though Batman still trusts him to an extent. 
> 
> It would be nice to see Jason train the newbies and Kara.



Maybe we could have Sub-Zero and Jason planning training methods, after all he said that Jason could have been a great Lin Kuei  :Smile:

----------


## Aioros22

Anyone reckon that Jason`s face reveal in Injustice seems to be modelled after Jensen?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.


Beautiful work as always G. Happy Lunar New Year and Happy 700th page!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That was a pretty underwhelming reveal. Although I don't know if is the execution or the fact DC keeps insisting of making Jason this shocking reveal despite being so blatantly obvious 99% of the time. The characterization also clashes a bit with the way he's characterized within the game but that has become kind of a trend with the series anyways. 

Last but no less, lovely picture G you continue to improve by leap and bounds.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #22
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> Art by DEXTER SOY
> Cover by TREVfOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
> Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> The Penguin has redeveloped waterfront property into a new boardwalk attraction for children of all ages, but Red Hood knows any “legitimate” business of the Penguin’s is a cover for something illegitimate. Plus, Artemis pays a visit to Lex Luthor to find out about the “side effects” of Bizarro’s revival, though Lex might be more concerned with dredging up his past with the wayward Amazon than answering any of her questions.
> On sale MAY 9 • 32 pg, FC, • $3.99 US • RATED T


And here we go.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The monkey paw closes a finger....


DC has released the statue's information




> DC DESIGNER SERIES: RED HOOD BY KENNETH ROCAFORT STATUE DESIGNED BY KENNETH ROCAFORT SCULPTED BY MAT BROUILLARD Inspired by Kenneth Rocaforts amazing run as artist on RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS this super dynamic statue features Red Hood leaping into the air with both guns drawn. This high-powered 12 polyresin statue sculpted by Mat Brouillard and is limited to 5,000 pieces. DC DESIGNER SERIES statues are based on art from the comic industrys top creators and recreates their vision in vivid 3D detail. Limited Edition of 5,000  Measures Approximately 12.93 Tall $150.00 US  On Sale SEPTEMBER 2018 Allocations may occur Final products may differ from images shown


$150 is a pretty steep price.

----------


## magpieM

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.


Wow 701 already  :EEK!: , congratulations! 
Great art G! Pup pup is dressed up, too  :Wink: 

And wish you all have a splendid new year!~

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And here we go.


Looking forward to the issue.

----------


## G-Potion

> Happy 700th page and a blessed Lunar New Year to you to too.





> This is an amazing piece of artwork. You are extremely talented.





> This is wonderful!





> This is one AMAZING fanart.





> Beautiful work as always G. Happy Lunar New Year and Happy 700th page!





> Last but no less, lovely picture G you continue to improve by leap and bounds.





> Wow 701 already , congratulations! 
> Great art G! Pup pup is dressed up, too 
> 
> And wish you all have a splendid new year!~


Thank you guys! I stopped drawing for years but Jason and discussions we have on this board have been a huge source of inspiration and encouragement.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

@Aioros22: We _really_ should. I love the insights that you throw around in discussions so can't wait to see it in creative work. Hit me up sooon I'm excitedddd.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> That was a pretty underwhelming reveal. Although I don't know if is the execution or the fact DC keeps insisting of making Jason this shocking reveal despite being so blatantly obvious 99% of the time. The characterization also clashes a bit with the way he's characterized within the game but that has become kind of a trend with the series anyways.


I'm okay with the reveal. Didn't expect it to shatter any minds, just wanted them to hurry it up so I can have Jason as a more active player. But I agree with the rest of your point. How they make the transition here to the Injustice version is important. Also, now that his Batman persona is dropped, I really hope they portray him as a younger generation hero. He's been looking as old as Batman (understandable), clashing severely with how he sounds, and how the others see him in the game.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looking forward to the issue.


Don't want to jinx it, but with all the shakeup going on, I'm grateful that RHATO is for now left alone to tell its already excellent story.

----------


## G-Potion

> And here we go.


Last two solicitations sound like Jason is actively _not_ involved in finding out what's up with Bizarro. Can be a front or a distraction so Artemis can do the work?

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone reckon that Jason`s face reveal in Injustice seems to be modelled after Jensen?


Have been reading similar comments as yours. I can see it now. Hope from this point on he shaves and just look properly his age.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

> Last two solicitations sound like Jason is actively _not_ involved in finding out what's up with Bizarro. Can be a front or a distraction so Artemis can do the work?


I noticed that too. It might be because Jason is busy when she discovers this stuff and she can't pop up to take him to the bat cave without Bizarro noticing.

----------


## RedBird

> Whoops almost missed it. Happy 700th page and Happy Lunar New Year guys! 
> 
> Have an Outlaws Lion Dance! This thing took all the free time and effort I've got but it was so worth it.


Yoooo thats a beautiful New Year piece! I love the colours and contrast G, its so vibrant  :Big Grin: 

Haha and even Pup pup gets an outfit XD

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm getting a little worn out on the current arc for RHatO.

----------


## AJpyro

Great art G-Potion.

Also checked the numbers. RHatO 19 is in the top 20 at #17.

----------


## Assam

Oh wow, G, that art is incredible!

----------


## Aioros22

> Great art G-Potion.
> 
> Also checked the numbers. RHatO 19 is in the top 20 at #17.


Uh? I thought RATHO was scratching in and out of the top 100 from the last numbers laid out here, I need to check that out.

----------


## Aahz

> Uh? I thought RATHO was scratching in and out of the top 100 from the last numbers laid out here, I need to check that out.


I guess he means the comixology best seller list (which is a weekly list) where RHatO is usually around #15 in the week of publication.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yoooo thats a beautiful New Year piece! I love the colours and contrast G, its so vibrant 
> 
> Haha and even Pup pup gets an outfit XD





> Great art G-Potion.
> 
> Also checked the numbers. RHatO 19 is in the top 20 at #17.





> Oh wow, G, that art is incredible!


Thanks for your lovely words!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

So remember that last Hiya Toys poll that Jason won by a landslide? Looks like it gets him a slot in the first batch alongside other obvious choices.




You can see the other characters they have so far here. [X]

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm getting a little worn out on the current arc for RHatO.


The Tec' and SS crossovers were not the best issues but I think things have been speeding up, and although the arc is not over, new plot points are being worked into as well. With the Penguin, Solitary as well as Luthor, that's a lot of excitement for me personally.

----------


## G-Potion

Miss them so much.

https://ninalinovna.tumblr.com

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So remember that last Hiya Toys poll that Jason won by a landslide? Looks like it gets him a slot in the first batch alongside other obvious choices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see the other characters they have so far here. [X]


Shame the scale is so small but for $20 I can't complain.

----------


## Zaresh

Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!

----------


## kaimaciel

> Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!


Bienvenido vecino! Greetings from Portugal and welcome to the forum! I hope you'll like it here  :Smile:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!


Greetings from midwestern USA and welcome. I hope you enjoy your time on the forum.

----------


## Zaresh

> Bienvenido vecino! Greetings from Portugal and welcome to the forum! I hope you'll like it here





> Greetings from midwestern USA and welcome. I hope you enjoy your time on the forum.


Thanks! You can count with me having some nice time. I usually read this thread once or twice a day, and often lurk other places like Reddit: I just like a lot discussing the stuff I like. Odd that I didn't register until know, because there've been a few times I would've loved to share my thoughts here about a few details of the current run and I know you guys also love to do so. I'll do now for sure, next month.

----------


## KC93

Welcome to the forum. I registered last year but only posted this month.  :Smile:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Greetings from midwestern USA and welcome. I hope you enjoy your time on the forum.


What part of the midwest?

----------


## G-Potion

> Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!


Greetings, friend! As a fan of the character, this has been my favorite place to hang out and I hope it will be for you too. Welcome to the squad!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!


Welcome to the boards (from southeast Tennessee!)  Jason resonates with a lot of us apparently...wanting to do good...our way.  Thanks for joining the board and hope you like your stay!

----------


## Zaresh

Thank you, *GK93*, *G-Potion* and *OBrianTallent*! A pleasure to meet all of you :3.

I don't have much on my bag to share right now, but I guess I can post that fanart I did a while ago when I was trying my (awesome) new markers. I messed up the eyes a bit, but at least I saved a copy of the lineart alone in case I want to repaint it someday. I don't do fanarts often, I'm not as active as G-Potion; but I do draw fanart from time to time.

http://fav.me/dbfh5bt


(Yes, that's a robin. I know they're not crimson colored, but I liked it like that \o/ Red markers were sooo tempting)

Right know I'm working another batman-themed fanart, one with Robin (as a concept, but I guess it's more suitable for Tim) as the focus. But I doubt I'll finish it anytime soon.

----------


## Alycat

That looks really cool. You guys doing fanart are super talented.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What part of the midwest?


Tornado Alley otherwise known as Missouri.




> Thank you, *GK93*, *G-Potion* and *OBrianTallent*! A pleasure to meet all of you :3.
> 
> I don't have much on my bag to share right now, but I guess I can post that fanart I did a while ago when I was trying my (awesome) new markers. I messed up the eyes a bit, but at least I saved a copy of the lineart alone in case I want to repaint it someday. I don't do fanarts often, I'm not as active as G-Potion; but I do draw fanart from time to time.
> 
> http://fav.me/dbfh5bt
> 
> 
> (Yes, that's a robin. I know they're not crimson colored, but I liked it like that \o/ Red markers were sooo tempting)
> 
> Right know I'm working another batman-themed fanart, one with Robin (as a concept, but I guess it's more suitable for Tim) as the focus. But I doubt I'll finish it anytime soon.


That's a great piece of fanart there. You're very talented.

----------


## KC93

> Thank you, *GK93*, *G-Potion* and *OBrianTallent*! A pleasure to meet all of you :3.
> 
> I don't have much on my bag to share right now, but I guess I can post that fanart I did a while ago when I was trying my (awesome) new markers. I messed up the eyes a bit, but at least I saved a copy of the lineart alone in case I want to repaint it someday. I don't do fanarts often, I'm not as active as G-Potion; but I do draw fanart from time to time.
> 
> http://fav.me/dbfh5bt
> 
> 
> (Yes, that's a robin. I know they're not crimson colored, but I liked it like that \o/ Red markers were sooo tempting)
> 
> Right know I'm working another batman-themed fanart, one with Robin (as a concept, but I guess it's more suitable for Tim) as the focus. But I doubt I'll finish it anytime soon.


That fanart is amazing. I want to draw some fanart but I’m a little out of practice, when I do I’ll post it.

----------


## Zaresh

Right now, I'm red as a big orange star, approaching the red giant phase. Thank you! (I'm quite proud of how it looks, to be frank. Even if the eyes don't look as I intended).

I honestly am all won by G-Pot's use of colours and overall cuteness.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't have much on my bag to share right now, but I guess I can post that fanart I did a while ago when I was trying my (awesome) new markers. I messed up the eyes a bit, but at least I saved a copy of the lineart alone in case I want to repaint it someday. I don't do fanarts often, I'm not as active as G-Potion; but I do draw fanart from time to time.
> 
> http://fav.me/dbfh5bt


Oooh this looks great! Reminded me of the art in RHATO#7 which I really love!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> I honestly am all won by G-Pot's use of colours and overall cuteness.


Aww thank you so much. I honestly squeed at that shortening of my nickname. I should have used that instead, so much nicer omg. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> That looks really cool. You guys doing fanart are super talented.


We need more fic writers in here too. I know *kaimaciel* writes great stories. Any of you secretly doing it?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kaimaciel

> We need more fic writers in here too. I know *kaimaciel* writes great stories. Any of you secretly doing it?


Aww. Thank you *G-Potion*  :Embarrassment:  I really should update them more often though.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> We need more fic writers in here too. I know *kaimaciel* writes great stories. Any of you secretly doing it?


I have been thinking of plans of building my own DC and Marvel Universes. One of those plans do include an adaptation of Under the Red Hood and later the Outlaws and might spring for the current incarnation since that seems to be more popular than the first incarnation. I can still include Roy and Jason's friendship just make it one from their tenure on the Teen Titans.

----------


## G-Potion

That sounds like an enormous undertaking. Will it be in fanfic form? Would love to hear the ideas you have for your version of UTRH and the Outlaws!

----------


## G-Potion

Soy with the cryptic comment. On instagram he says "Live for a while" instead.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That sounds like an enormous undertaking. Will it be in fanfic form? Would love to hear the ideas you have for your version of UTRH and the Outlaws!


Thank you and I was always the type who couldn't resist being ambitious. Yes it will be in fanfiction form. Currently, I have no ideas as to how I am going to adapt Under the Red Hood except maybe instead of Black Mask being Jason's target I could go for the Joker right away. And in a similar vein to the Dark Knight movie the Joker will try to manipulate Jason to be his tool to defeat Batman. But it doesn't go his way. And instead of becoming the Red Hood Jason becomes the Red Knight after he is resurrected. After Jason escapes he sets about trying take his war on crime to the next level and takes on the Red Hood mantle and begins recruiting the Outlaws starting with Bizarro. Artemis is going to be something of a challenge. Jason and Roy's friendship will be liek siblings with Roy trying to play the older brother but failing to.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oooh this looks great! Reminded me of the art in RHATO#7 which I really love!


Thank you!

Phoneposting, so no more quotes, but just so you know, that I'm not going to pretend that I came up with that shorter, more cute name thoughtfully. I'm just lazy enough to short names, but I've got luck on my side, and they sound good  :Big Grin: . Sometimes.

Good luck with your fic, *The Dying Detective* (DyDec?). I would love to try at writing fics too, but I end up getting too catched in creating and building the characters and the stories instead of actually writing them straight. So I never finish any that I do start.

I read a lot, tho. So, well, your work is much appreciated, guys.

----------


## RedBird

> Soy with the cryptic comment. On instagram he says "Live for a while" instead.


Good I've been needing my Soy art fix  :Big Grin: 

Looks like Jasons out to eat at a diner. 
Makes me wonder if Chilli dogs will ever make a return to Jasons life? I know they were more of a post death afterthought as one of his fave foods, but it was a cute detail none the less.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like he's complaining about whoever putting that hole in the wall behind him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Thank you and I was always the type who couldn't resist being ambitious. Yes it will be in fanfiction form. Currently, I have no ideas as to how I am going to adapt Under the Red Hood except maybe instead of Black Mask being Jason's target I could go for the Joker right away. And in a similar vein to the Dark Knight movie the Joker will try to manipulate Jason to be his tool to defeat Batman. But it doesn't go his way. And instead of becoming the Red Hood Jason becomes the Red Knight after he is resurrected. After Jason escapes he sets about trying take his war on crime to the next level and takes on the Red Hood mantle and begins recruiting the Outlaws starting with Bizarro. Artemis is going to be something of a challenge. Jason and Roy's friendship will be liek siblings with Roy trying to play the older brother but failing to.


I'd _love_ to read this. Red Knight transition to Red Hood especially. As a whole, do you have a central character in mind or it will change depending on the arcs?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'd _love_ to read this. Red Knight transition to Red Hood especially. As a whole, do you have a central character in mind or it will change depending on the arcs?


Glad to hear though there's a lot of work to be done thankfully DC and Marvel provide a lot of raw material to adapt. No I don't have a central character in mind but for now my iteration Under the Red will be one part the original adaptation, one part Arkham Knight, and one part Batman: Dark Knight.

----------


## G-Potion

> Glad to hear though there's a lot of work to be done thankfully DC and Marvel provide a lot of raw material to adapt. No I don't have a central character in mind but for now my iteration Under the Red will be one part the original adaptation, one part Arkham Knight, and one part Batman: Dark Knight.


You are doing both DC and Marvel, does that mean separately or they will crossover too?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You are doing both DC and Marvel, does that mean separately or they will crossover too?


The original plan was to write a crossover between Marvel and DC but I wanted it to be something big but that one was way too challenging. So I decided to do both universes separately to build them up and then crossover. I took this idea believe it or not Shawn James who created his own plan to rebuild DC Comics if he ever became editor in chief. But given how much he hates Jason Todd and Damian Wayne I am glad he isn't getting a position in DC. The plan itself is quite simple really and similar to way Marvel does it's movies. I start with the top tier characters Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, the Flash, Martian Manhunter, Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man, Thor, Black Panther, X-Men, and the Fantastic Four. And then from there various other stories spin out of it you get Birds of Prey, Red Hood and the Outlaws, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, the Justice League, Avengers, New X-Men, and Champions.

----------


## RedBird

> Looks like he's complaining about whoever putting that hole in the wall behind him.


I honestly thought that was meant to be the button cushion backs of the diner seats.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Soy with the cryptic comment. On instagram he says "Live for a while" instead.


Ah, I've gotten my Soy fix for the day. Thanks G. Also I used to write fanfic in another fandom years ago but I haven't really done much in that vein for a long while. I did start on a couple of Jason Todd fics a couple of years ago but nothing ever came of that. I got more interested in read them instead.

@The Dying Detective: Your fanfic ideas sound really cool. I can't wait to read the actual stories.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> @The Dying Detective: Your fanfic ideas sound really cool. I can't wait to read the actual stories.


Thank you but it's going to be very difficult because all I have are indeed plan but no time to execute at the moment.

----------


## Aioros22

> I honestly thought that was meant to be the button cushion backs of the diner seats.


And he wins! Full picture available

----------


## EMarie

Is Jason's coke called choke?

----------


## Aioros22

> Greetings from Spain! I've just registered, after being reading for a while, and come here to say hello to you all. I'm a big Jason fan, even if I'm relatively new to DC Comics because I didn't get to read a lot of them when I was a child despite liking Batman for all its "pulpness" feel. Jason somehow resonates with me, even if I'm probably more like a bunch of other characters: he's just really interesting in a lot of ways. So hey, here I am, ready to discuss whatever it comes to your minds. Nice to meet you all, at least!


Bienvenido amigo! We always open the door to a fellow dashing rogue. Have a seat, make yourself at home and most of all, have fun  :Wink:

----------


## Aioros22

> Is Jason's coke called choke?


That`s a positive and he`s talking with someone sipping coffee. Artemis? Somehow doubtfull but one of the obvious choices. Solitary? Clark?

----------


## G-Potion

> I honestly thought that was meant to be the button cushion backs of the diner seats.


Haha you're right. XD

----------


## Zaresh

> Bienvenido amigo! We always open the door to a fellow dashing rogue. Have a seat, make yourself at home and most of all, have fun


Thank you!


Sooo, who'd talk with Jason in a diner? Doesn't seem like it could be Artemis, and I don't see Jason having a "business" meeting out of his costume. Maybe a member of the family?

----------


## G-Potion

> Is Jason's coke called choke?


It's his favorite drink apparently.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

It's good to know Jason isn't drinking an off brand Joker invented.

I have no idea who Jason is having a talk with. I'd like it to be someone in his family. Bruce to follow up on the DET fight and Luthor changing Bizarro. Maybe even a mention to the bat cave silent date bit. It'd also be great to see Dick making an effort to bond after the annual. Or Tim to hang out after the whole "dead" thing.

----------


## Zaresh

Whoever they are, they're drinking something in a coffee mug.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Good luck with your fic, *The Dying Detective* (DyDec?). I would love to try at writing fics too, but I end up getting too catched in creating and building the characters and the stories instead of actually writing them straight. So I never finish any that I do start.
> 
> I read a lot, tho. So, well, your work is much appreciated, guys.


In a way we are in the same boat one just needs to have the willingness to execute the ideas no risk no rewards as they say so I encourage you to do that as well and thank you.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Thank you, *GK93*, *G-Potion* and *OBrianTallent*! A pleasure to meet all of you :3.
> 
> I don't have much on my bag to share right now, but I guess I can post that fanart I did a while ago when I was trying my (awesome) new markers. I messed up the eyes a bit, but at least I saved a copy of the lineart alone in case I want to repaint it someday. I don't do fanarts often, I'm not as active as G-Potion; but I do draw fanart from time to time.
> 
> http://fav.me/dbfh5bt
> 
> 
> (Yes, that's a robin. I know they're not crimson colored, but I liked it like that \o/ Red markers were sooo tempting)
> 
> Right know I'm working another batman-themed fanart, one with Robin (as a concept, but I guess it's more suitable for Tim) as the focus. But I doubt I'll finish it anytime soon.


Little late but welcome and greetings from Canada!

Love the redbird behind him and wow those are some nice marker colors. I rarely ever get anything traditional looking so nice even with a scanner.

----------


## kiwiliko

Dang, I leave for volunteering for a day and miss not only the 700 page but a whole bunch of fic ideas + arts.

@G New piece is looking awesome! I'm never over how nice your colors look and holyyy the detail on their clothes had to take forever, Happy Lunar New Year to you too!

----------


## Zaresh

> In a way we are in the same boat one just needs to have the willingness to execute the ideas no risk no rewards as they say so I encourage you to do that as well and thank you.


I guess I can try again. Not too long ago, I somehow found myself writing my failed Marvel fancomic in a .doc while I was drawing for the sake of shaping the actual dialogue and narrator's voice. And I have, kind of, written the whole first story from the beginning to the end. So I think I'll start from that and see how many short stories / cases can write before derail myself again and stop writing. I think I'll try to write them in English this time. I need to be a lot more careful because my English isn't perfect, but I thinK I can pull something readable. If I finish the whole first story, that's it.

Not now, tho. I've a ton of tasks to complete before that one, and a job interview to attend tomorrow. Butterflies in my chest, I swear.




> Little late but welcome and greetings from Canada!
> 
> Love the redbird behind him and wow those are some nice marker colors. I rarely ever get anything traditional looking so nice even with a scanner.


Hello, and thanks!

The brand of markers that I use has really bright and vivid colours, and leaves a nice texture on the paper. It helps that I edited the scanned image to look like the actual piece, but still; lovely colours (they also smell delicious, but, eh, I guess that's slightly toxic--being alcohol based-- and actually not a good point).

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Tornado Alley otherwise known as Missouri.


I am in Kansas. We're neighbors.

----------


## Caivu

Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

Jason is on the lower right, behind Catwoman.

----------


## RedBird

> Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg
> 
> Jason is on the lower right, behind Catwoman.


YAY! 

I didn't know they were collecting both trades into one.  :Smile: 

Whoop, and there goes my wallet

----------


## Aioros22

Aquaman chilling In the batmobile like an Aquarium. Precious. 

Best love letter to DC/Batman characters In the last 5 years and my wallet is crying now.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy is at it again. But Jason has beautiful eyes though. XD

----------


## G-Potion

> Dang, I leave for volunteering for a day and miss not only the 700 page but a whole bunch of fic ideas + arts.
> 
> @G New piece is looking awesome! I'm never over how nice your colors look and holyyy the detail on their clothes had to take forever, Happy Lunar New Year to you too!


Thanks kiwi! How's your New Year piece going? I can't wait to see it!  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

It's very likely that it's not Artemis sitting opposite Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not now, tho. I've a ton of tasks to complete before that one, and a job interview to attend tomorrow. Butterflies in my chest, I swear.


Good luck with your interview!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

Definatly not Artemis. I`m thinking it has to be someone who knows who Jason is. So..

Bruce
Clark
Solitary.

----------


## Caivu

> Definatly not Artemis. I`m thinking it has to be someone who knows who Jason is. So..
> 
> Bruce
> Clark
> Solitary.


Maybe his dad?

----------


## EMarie

I think Jason would be more upset if it was Solitary or his dad. I'm leaning towards Bruce but Clark could work too.

----------


## Aioros22

> Maybe his dad?


Depends if the scene will be in next issue, otherwise as casual as the scene seems to play as, that`s almost a no-no. Under Loedbell Jason has been taunted by the Joker regarding his father and as the saying goes, it pulls a string in him. 

Jason hasn`t seen or known about his father ever since he was a pup still living with his foster mother.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I guess I can try again. Not too long ago, I somehow found myself writing my failed Marvel fancomic in a .doc while I was drawing for the sake of shaping the actual dialogue and narrator's voice. And I have, kind of, written the whole first story from the beginning to the end. So I think I'll start from that and see how many short stories / cases can write before derail myself again and stop writing. I think I'll try to write them in English this time. I need to be a lot more careful because my English isn't perfect, but I thinK I can pull something readable. If I finish the whole first story, that's it.
> 
> Not now, tho. I've a ton of tasks to complete before that one, and a job interview to attend tomorrow. Butterflies in my chest, I swear.


Okay and all the best on your job interview.

----------


## magpieM

> Maybe his dad?


I think a face-to-face moment with his father seems too fast for the next one or two issues. It looks like a casual conversation in an ordinary dinner. This guy is leaving while Jason continues to finish his soda. I also tend to think that he's Bruce or Clark, especially the latter because he'll definitely show up later.

I hope that the clue of Willis' letter + Ma Gunn-in-the-bottle could have some more development... If Jason met his father before knowing the letter, I think this clue would be a little bit underused.

----------


## Zaresh

> Soy is at it again. But Jason has beautiful eyes though. XD


Yep, Soy does draw some really pretty eyes for Jason. Not big, not even warm: but beautiful with long eyelashes and those pretty, manly eyebrows. They also feel a bit melancholic.




> It's very likely that it's not Artemis sitting opposite Jason.


Wondering whose idea was the "choke a coke" brand? I guess it was Lobdell's, but may be a team's wordplay.




> Good luck with your interview!





> Okay and all the best on your job interview.


Thanks! It went relatively nice, btw. I'll know more next week, I guess.




> Definatly not Artemis. I`m thinking it has to be someone who knows who Jason is. So..
> 
> Bruce
> Clark
> Solitary.





> I think a face-to-face moment with his father seems too fast for the next one or two issues. It looks like a casual conversation in an ordinary dinner. This guy is leaving while Jason continues to finish his soda. I also tend to think that he's Bruce or Clark, especially the latter because he'll definitely show up later.
> 
> I hope that the clue of Willis' letter + Ma Gunn-in-the-bottle could have some more development... If Jason met his father before knowing the letter, I think this clue would be a little bit underused.


My vote goes for Clark. Doesn't he appear in an incoming issue in this arc? And some journalist investigating the hire-a-tug app stuff seems right.

----------


## Caivu

Found this concept for a DCEU costume by Trick Arrow Designs:

DCEU_Red_Hood_Alt_Suit_by_TrickArrowDesigns.jpg

On the one hand, it looks suitably live actiony and clearly comic inspired, but on the other it doesn't look like it could actually work, oddly.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I am in Kansas. We're neighbors.


Howdy neighbor.  :Smile: 




> Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming collected edition of Li'l Gotham:
> 
> Attachment 62502
> 
> Jason is on the lower right, behind Catwoman.


Nice. I love Li'l Gotham. 




> Soy is at it again. But Jason has beautiful eyes though. XD


Cool and those eyes.




> I think a face-to-face moment with his father seems too fast for the next one or two issues. It looks like a casual conversation in an ordinary dinner. This guy is leaving while Jason continues to finish his soda. I also tend to think that he's Bruce or Clark, especially the latter because he'll definitely show up later.
> 
> I hope that the clue of Willis' letter + Ma Gunn-in-the-bottle could have some more development... If Jason met his father before knowing the letter, I think this clue would be a little bit underused.


Yeah, I think its too soon for a confrontation with Willis. I think its probably Bruce or maybe one of his "brothers" that he's talking to there and not his biological father. 




> Yep, Soy does draw some really pretty eyes for Jason. Not big, not even warm: but beautiful with long eyelashes and those pretty, manly eyebrows. They also feel a bit melancholic.


Soy's art is beautiful all around. Melancholic was the word I was looking for too, at least in regard this particular image. Wonder what he is sad about?




> Thanks! It went relatively nice, btw. I'll know more next week, I guess.


I hope you get the job.

----------


## EMarie

> I think a face-to-face moment with his father seems too fast for the next one or two issues. It looks like a casual conversation in an ordinary dinner. This guy is leaving while Jason continues to finish his soda. I also tend to think that he's Bruce or Clark, especially the latter because he'll definitely show up later.
> 
> I hope that the clue of Willis' letter + Ma Gunn-in-the-bottle could have some more development... If Jason met his father before knowing the letter, I think this clue would be a little bit underused.


A face to face with Willis would probably be a lot more emotional. Jason would be mad that his dad was gone for years after his supposed death and just abandoned him.

I'm not sure who I'd like it to be more. Dick, Tim, Bruce or Clark.

If it's taking awhile to come to light it feels like the fall out will be big. If Jason doesn't learn about the letter before seeing his dad the letter it still can work. I don't expect it to say something like "I'm faking my death" but to relate to something to prevent Jason from getting hurt. I could see them meeting and Willis assuming Jason knew. He doesn't and gets hurt when it's revealed.

----------


## adrikito

I saw this in Tumblr:

Screen Shot 103.jpg
*
FEW SECONDS LATER I SAW THE VIDEO ABOUT THIS IN YOUTUBE..*

----------


## adrikito

The video talking about this youtube serie, First Episode the 18th of May:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm somewhat burned out of fan webseries since they usually fall on the pitfalls of having "Iconic" scenes in detriment of the narrative and less than stellar costumes and acting but I have to give to these guys, they nailed the costume. Hopefully everything else is up to the same standard.

----------


## adrikito

> I'm somewhat burned out of fan webseries since they usually fall on the pitfalls of having "Iconic" scenes in detriment of the narrative and less than stellar costumes and acting but I have to give to these guys, they nailed the costume. Hopefully everything else is up to the same standard.


Maybe we are lucky this time like in that Nightwing fanserie with Dick, Oracle and Slade as villain..

----------


## Aahz

> Found this concept for a DCEU costume by Trick Arrow Designs:
> 
> DCEU_Red_Hood_Alt_Suit_by_TrickArrowDesigns.jpg
> 
> On the one hand, it looks suitably live actiony and clearly comic inspired, but on the other it doesn't look like it could actually work, oddly.


I don't think it would be a good idea to choose the ugly Morrision design over his usual design for a live action movie.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm somewhat burned out of fan webseries since they usually fall on the pitfalls of having "Iconic" scenes in detriment of the narrative and less than stellar costumes and acting but I have to give to these guys, they nailed the costume. Hopefully everything else is up to the same standard.


They usually get the costume right within variations that don`t run from what is the large iconic image of the character. Where most clearly have most issues is in the helmet, so kudos to this team for going to lenghts (and budget..) to recreate a comic book likeness in their helmet. 

100 points for the white eyes because it always looks good even if it`s not realistic.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

I wonder if Jason will end up being revealed as having been mind controlled in a fashion because as cool as the moment is to kick off the Red Hood persona for him, every single character here has pretty much been a terrorist up to this point. It`s cool they finally shake it off but a little argumentation would impact the scene better.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm somewhat burned out of fan webseries since they usually fall on the pitfalls of having "Iconic" scenes in detriment of the narrative and less than stellar costumes and acting but I have to give to these guys, they nailed the costume. Hopefully everything else is up to the same standard.


Same. On the writing and acting, my favorite one at the moment is Red Hood Retcon. Not wasting time with iconic scenes and incorporating N52 elements make it a stand-out among all the films so far.

----------


## G-Potion

> I wonder if Jason will end up being revealed as having been mind controlled in a fashion because as cool as the moment is to kick off the Red Hood persona for him, every single character here has pretty much been a terrorist up to this point. It`s cool they finally shake it off but a little argumentation would impact the scene better.


Has Jason been involved in something other than fighting against Bat team so far? The biggest almost-crossing-the-line for me was threatening to kill the kid, but we don't know if he really meant to do that. Hope we get too see his POV soon. Better if he reflects back at the times he received commands from Ra.

----------


## G-Potion

http://cherrymiko-art.tumblr.com

Aww.

----------


## G-Potion

Teen Outlaws by http://k-noppa.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aahz

> Has Jason been involved in something other than fighting against Bat team so far? The biggest almost-crossing-the-line for me was threatening to kill the kid, but we don't know if he really meant to do that. Hope we get too see his POV soon. Better if he reflects back at the times he received commands from Ra.


He killed several Suicide Squad members and he shot Wild Cat (but he might have known that Ted would resurrect).

----------


## G-Potion

> He killed several Suicide Squad members and he shot Wild Cat (but he might have known that Ted would resurrect).


Oh thanks forgot about SS. I wonder if he thought those were fair game. I was trying to remember if there's an instance where he harmed innocents instead of an active player or a criminal.

----------


## G-Potion

I adore all the fanarts where Jason is extremely tiny compared to his counterparts.

https://kuromameo.tumblr.com/

----------


## Zaresh

> I adore all the fanarts where Jason is extremely tiny compared to his counterparts.
> 
> https://kuromameo.tumblr.com/


This is lovely. Also, you're not alone on that. I think it may be because we know he's actualy quite big, and that and the tough guy attitude, makes it kind of funny. Also, because he's the serius-but-snarky guy who's a dork. Not much different than Edward in Fullmetal Alchemist, if you know the manga. For some reason, it fits the image for me, making him shorter than Bizarro or even Artemis on heels.

----------


## Aioros22

> Has Jason been involved in something other than fighting against Bat team so far? The biggest almost-crossing-the-line for me was threatening to kill the kid, but we don't know if he really meant to do that. Hope we get too see his POV soon. Better if he reflects back at the times he received commands from Ra.


Threatning Arrow`s kid is the other direct example but he might have only meant to scare him and he especifically said to Ted that he wanted him down, not dead (there`s a mention of him pulling some killing shots). That said, what I mean with the post is how the characters, from Damian to Vixen and Jason took Amazo`s first genocide rampage. It`s cool they woke up now thought. 

Unless I am missing that Ras/Grood decided to test the android without any of their allies knowing about it? That would seal it. 


P.S= Some will still mention how Washington also suffered a terrorist attack but in context I feel it makes sense they wouldn`t care about it as much. The Government would fall in the "guilty" charge of the eco-attack. It might also come to be that they simply believed in Ras strategy to wipe out the weed and now they`re getting uncomfortable that it has switched to something less utopic. I do hope they touch a bit on it with the Face switch.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is lovely. Also, you're not alone on that. I think it may be because we know he's actualy quite big, and that and the tough guy attitude, makes it kind of funny. Also, because he's the serius-but-snarky guy who's a dork. Not much different than Edward in Fullmetal Alchemist, if you know the manga. For some reason, it fits the image for me, making him shorter than Bizarro or even Artemis on heels.


Yeah, and also the fact that it adds such a funny contrast to his role as the caretaker of the group.  :Big Grin: 

I've always wanted to start on Fullmetal Alchemist but not managed to find the time to yet. Always hear good things about it.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah, and also the fact that it adds such a funny contrast to his role as the caretaker of the group. 
> 
> I've always wanted to start on Fullmetal Alchemist but not managed to find the time to yet. Always hear good things about it.


My advise on FMA: go for either the manga or the second anime series, which is better than the first one in a lot of ways that matter (except the music score) and retains great things from the first adaptation.

----------


## Assam

> My advise on FMA: go for either the manga or the second anime series, which is better than the first one in a lot of ways that matter (except the music score) and retains great things from the first adaptation.


In addition to the score (debatably) I'd also say the original FMA has better lighting and it does one of the early storylines MUCH better. Those things aside though, yeah, definitely go for Brotherhood first. The original is still good, but Brotherhood is what people are talking about generally when they call FMA one of the best anime ever.

----------


## G-Potion

> My advise on FMA: go for either the manga or the second anime series, which is better than the first one in a lot of ways that matter (except the music score) and retains great things from the first adaptation.


Oh so the anime series are the same plot-wise but different in quality?

----------


## RedBird

> Oh so the anime series are the same plot-wise but different in quality?


The second version and most recommended, 'FMA brotherhood' actually follows the manga more closely, whereas the original first series had deviated.

I would highly recommend the brotherhood version of the show as well.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Oh so the anime series are the same plot-wise but different in quality?


Just to clarify from what Redbird said, the original series starts off loyally adapting the manga while also adding in some filler episodes , but eventually becomes its own separate story because the manga wasn't done yet. Brotherhood actually starts off a little less loyal, as the first episode is the only anime-original one in its run and it speeds through the manga material that the first series already covered, but once it reaches the point where the original series started doing its own thing, it stops speeding through things and adapts the manga normally.

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks guys! Gotta find the time to watch then.  :Big Grin:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My advise on FMA: go for either the manga or the second anime series, which is better than the first one in a lot of ways that matter (except the music score) and retains great things from the first adaptation.


I disagree the music score of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood was excellent except for the fourth one.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh so the anime series are the same plot-wise but different in quality?


Half way, they share the same plot more or less, yeah. But given that the first one ended when the manga was like in its first quarter or third, and the second one ended with the end of the actual manga, you can guess that, in the end, they're pretty different plot wise. As *Assam* has said, the first one is better at the part that actually adapts the manga's storyline, in part because it give it more time to build the dramatic escalade and fall that are the first events for the brothers (is hard not to spoil the thing, so I'll let it there). But then, the first anime had one or two "filler" stories in the first half that, even if it helped in gaining tone, were kind of weak; and the last third of the anime, which was all original content and storyline for that adaptation was weak and a bit messed. Still, a good anime.

Brotherhood, the second series, has faster pacing (adaptin, what? 27 volumes? into 52 episodes does that):so the dramatic parts in the first third of the first adaptation are less impacting. BUT it's still impacting and the pacing isn't too fast to make the story unenjoyable. Inf fact, when you look back, the drama that those early events give to the story is a lesser part of the whole escalade that is the story the characters, all of then, live until the end. And damn if the story isn't good and interesting, and you get invested into a lot of the  supporting cast.

So, yeah, as *Redbird* and *Assam* say: Brotherhood first, then the original series if you're curious about. Brotherhood is basically a 1:1 adaptation of the manga, so you can skip reading it, I guess.

(I derailed the thread, wow! Just me doing my thing again ha, ha)

----------


## Assam

> I disagree the music score of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood was excellent except for the fourth one.


We're talking about the in-show score, not the OP's. Brotherhood's OP's are all some of the best out there in my eyes; not sure what you have against 'Period.'

----------


## Zaresh

> I disagree the music score of Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood was excellent except for the fourth one.


My opinion, of course, but the first anime soundtrack is one of the best scores I can remember. But I'm kind of a fan of Michiru Ooshima, so I guess I'm partial to her style. I can remember a bunch of tracks from her soundtrack, and I cannot say the same about Akira Senju's (thanks, Google). But I'm not saying it was bad, just to be clear. A matter of taste (I didn't mean to say it was absolutely true, to make myself clear).

----------


## G-Potion

> My opinion, of course, but the first anime soundtrack is one of the best scores I can remember. But I'm kind of a fan of Michiru Ooshima, so I guess I'm partial to her style. I can remember a bunch of tracks from her soundtrack, and I cannot say the same about Akira Senju's (thanks, Google). But I'm not saying it was bad, just to be clear. A matter of taste (I didn't mean to say it was absolutely true, to make myself clear).


Michiru Ooshima? I LOVE her ICO soundtrack!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> We're talking about the in-show score, not the OP's. Brotherhood's OP's are all some of the best out there in my eyes; not sure what you have against 'Period.'


Period just didn't speak to me the same way all the other openings did.

----------


## Zaresh

> Michiru Ooshima? I LOVE her ICO soundtrack!


She's GOOD. My favorite is from another anime: Sora no Woto ("Sound of the Sky" is how it was dubbed, I think). The series themselves weren't all good, but have some really nice art and the music was just a perfect fitting (and still really strong by itself).

----------


## G-Potion

@*Zaresh*:

Thanks a lot! Wow I've seen gifs/arts/tumblr posts everywhere but never knew of these facts. You guys saved me a lot of digging haha. 52 episodes are not too bad, I should be able manage them.

----------


## Assam

> Michiru Ooshima? I LOVE her ICO soundtrack!


Good taste.  :Embarrassment: 

Not sure if you've seen it, but the excellent 'The Tatami Galaxy' also had its soundtrack done by her.

----------


## Zaresh

> Good taste. 
> 
> Not sure if you've seen it, but the excellent 'The Tatami Galaxy' also had its soundtrack done by her.


Seconded (I'm like the biggest fan of Masaaki Yuasa here where I live, so, again, I'm biassed XD)

And you're wellcome, *G-Potion*.
(Damn, a full page talking about anime. I feel so... not guilty!)

----------


## G-Potion

> Good taste. 
> 
> Not sure if you've seen it, but the excellent 'The Tatami Galaxy' also had its soundtrack done by her.


Ah I didn't know that. Thanks for pointing out! I haven't seen Tatami Galaxy but just checked out a bit of the OST and OMG, pure pure joy, classical influenced music. First track really reminds me of the music from Final Fantasy VIII.

----------


## Assam

> First track really reminds me of the music from Final Fantasy VIII.


Owed to what thread we're in, I'm now imagining Jason meeting Squall and laughing over how stupid the gunblade is.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Owed to what thread we're in, I'm now imagining Jason meeting Squall and laughing over how stupid the gunblade is.


I've always wanted a DC and Final Fantasy crossover can you imagine Artemis fighting Vincent Valentine or Tifa?

----------


## G-Potion

> Owed to what thread we're in, I'm now imagining Jason meeting Squall and laughing over how stupid the gunblade is.


No kidding. I once saw an art crossover with them, with gunblades as well. Both of them are my favorite characters ever. Squall was the other character that I drew extensively for.

----------


## G-Potion

> I've always wanted a DC and Final Fantasy crossover can you imagine Artemis fighting Vincent Valentine or Tifa?


I can't think of anyone else yet but for some reason I don't imagine Vincent nor Tifa as a counterpart to Artemis. Would Fang be a better option?

For sure though, I would pit Jason against Squall in a crossover scenario.

----------


## Assam

> I've always wanted a DC and Final Fantasy crossover can you imagine Artemis fighting Vincent Valentine or Tifa?


Dang it now I'm trying to think who each member of the BatFam matches up best with... 




> No kidding. I once saw an art crossover with them, with gunblades as well. Both of them are my favorite characters ever. Squall was the other character that I drew extensively for.


Neat. Can't say I'm much of a fan of Squall personally (or FFVIII in general). My favorite FF protags are Cecil and Terra and my favorite game in the series is IX.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Dang it now I'm trying to think who each member of the BatFam matches up best with...


Nightwing could do well against Yuffie as they are both acrobatic fighters but no Batfamily member can stand against Sephiroth that' more for the Superman or Martian Manhunter to deal with.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I can't think of anyone else yet but for some reason I don't imagine Vincent nor Tifa as a counterpart to Artemis. Would Fang be a better option?
> 
> For sure though, I would pit Jason against Squall in a crossover scenario.


Tifa's strength is pretty much Amazonian level which should make the fight about equal Fang maybe though.

----------


## G-Potion

> Neat. Can't say I'm much of a fan of Squall personally (or FFVIII in general). My favorite FF protags are Cecil and Terra and my favorite game in the series is IX.


That's an interesting mix. It's sad, the entries that we love never get enough attention from SE.

----------


## Assam

> Nightwing could do well against Yuffie as they are both acrobatic fighters but no Batfamily member can stand against Sephiroth that' more for the Superman or Martian Manhunter to deal with.


I'm thinking more in terms of personality, background and style. No BatFam characters could actually stand against FF characters in a fight.

----------


## G-Potion

> Nightwing could do well against Yuffie as they are both acrobatic fighters but no Batfamily member can stand against Sephiroth that' more for the Superman or Martian Manhunter to deal with.


You can say the same for most of the FF villains though. Sephiroth is strong because SE pushes him. Canon-wise, he's not any better than the likes of Ultimecia or Kuja.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm thinking more in terms of personality, background and style. No BatFam characters could actually stand against FF characters in a fight.


Okay but if the fight was rigged (bad writing) then they could win. But what about Tidus or Vaan?

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm thinking more in terms of personality, background and style. No BatFam characters could actually stand against FF characters in a fight.


Yeah what I was thinking as well. That's why I don't think Tifa is a good fit against Artemis.

----------


## Assam

> That's an interesting mix.* It's sad, the entries that we love never get enough attention from SE.*


Almost like another company we frequently talk about, eh? 

But yeah, they're always too busy milking that FFVII cow. I love VII's artstyle and a few of the characters, but I don't think it's all that amazing a game.

----------


## G-Potion

> Almost like another company we frequently talk about, eh? 
> 
> But yeah, they're always too busy milking that FFVII cow. I love VII's artstyle and a few of the characters, but I don't think it's all that amazing a game.


If it's just VII I wouldn't feel as bad. But they also milked XIII, which I personally think was a disaster. Even X and XII got several remasters (deserved though, I love those two). IV also had The Year After or something? It's unfair because VIII and IX in their own rights were very successful and beloved games.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You can say the same for most of the FF villains though. Sephiroth is strong because SE pushes him. Canon-wise, he's not any better than the likes of Ultimecia or Kuja.


I admit I could never tell which Final Fantasy villains were stronger than the other most of them were just overpowered.

----------


## Assam

> If it's just VII I wouldn't feel as bad. But they also milked XIII, which I personally think was a disaster. Even X and XII got several remasters (deserved though, I love those two). IV also had The Year After or something? It's unfair because VIII and IX in their own rights were very successful and beloved games.


Oye, yeah, that XIII got a whole trilogy is quite annoying. X got its remaster and a sequel (which I kind of prefer to X, if ONLY for 1,000 Words) and I don't even know how many different releases FFIV and the After Years have gotten. 

VIII and IX tend to be overlooked not just by Squeenix themselves, but also by the fans. You always see the debates for the best between IV and VI, VI and VII and VII and X, but VIII and IX are often left out entirely. V as well but I've personally never even met anyone who thinks V is the best.

----------


## G-Potion

> I admit I could never tell which Final Fantasy villains were stronger than the other most of them were just overpowered.


You could maybe make the argument that Batfam can take them on based on tactics. All the FF villains are quite convoluted with their plans that rarely make sense after all. :P

----------


## Assam

> You could maybe make the argument that Batfam can take them on based on tactics. All the FF villains are quite convoluted with their plans that rarely make sense after all. :P


That's why Kefka's the best villain. He had a straight forward motivation and plan and it worked.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You could maybe make the argument that Batfam can take them on based on tactics. All the FF villains are quite convoluted with their plans that rarely make sense after all. :P


Sure why not but some like Seymour Guado are a little harder to read because he does hide his plans well in the beginning and is a text book case deluded psychopath.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oye, yeah, that XIII got a whole trilogy is quite annoying. X got its remaster and a sequel (which I kind of prefer to X, if ONLY for 1,000 Words) and I don't even know how many different releases FFIV and the After Years have gotten. 
> 
> VIII and IX tend to be overlooked not just by Squeenix themselves, but also by the fans. You always see the debates for the best between IV and VI, VI and VII and VII and X, but VIII and IX are often left out entirely. V as well but I've personally never even met anyone who thinks V is the best.


I think it depends on where you read them. From my experience, I've seen all the entries from VI to XII to be well presented in those discussions. VIII was always a love-it/hate-it, at least according to Western fans (Japanese fans like it just fine) but I remember places like GameFaqs love IX quite a lot. If you base it on fanworks, I think VIII is also up there. In Dissidia 589 was the most popular team.

----------


## G-Potion

> That's why Kefka's the best villain. He had a straight forward motivation and plan and it worked.


Speaking of him. Easiest pick for DC counterpart would be Joker. :P

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Speaking of him. Easiest pick for DC counterpart would be Joker. :P


Kefka and joker would be deadly combination and there will be lots of back stabbing but who would come out at the top?

----------


## Zaresh

> I think it depends on where you read them. From my experience, I've seen all the entries from VI to XII to be well presented in those discussions. VIII was always a love-it/hate-it, at least according to Western fans (Japanese fans like it just fine) but I remember places like GameFaqs love IX quite a lot. If you base it on fanworks, I think VIII is also up there. In Dissidia 589 was the most popular team.


I think the most polaricing games are VIII and XIII, not without reasons. VIII was a big game that had a lot of impact at the time, and you guys know how that ends half the time. Also, because this stupid war between people who's fan of the VII and people who is fan of the VIII, and the neverending discussion at that time about which one was the best FF (neither of them were right: for the PSX, it was IX, just plain and clear, ha!). XIII of course has a lot of problems, so logically it has to have a lot of hating (it wasn't a bad game, nevertheless).

In my case, my fave is FFIV. I don't know why, but I liked it a lot. I'm not too fond of VI, even if I love the music score of that game like any other. FFIX was just a piece of art, almost the perfect adventure for me. And I like FFXII a lot too, because the world it presented to me, the art direction and the game mechanics (addicted to them). But my favourite game of all times is Vagrant Story, that kind of takes place in one of the FF universes. So... does it count? Because in that case, Kefka does have a tough challenger in that game.

----------


## Zaresh

Going back on topic, kind of.

Today I found out that one of the fics that I was enjoying the most these past few weeks, has finished. It's pretty good, imho. Rather friendly to all kind of fans of Hood, with good portayals of the characters, an interesting time-traveling themed plot and a satisfying ending. Give if a try if you are curious: it's not too long.

Two Dead Birds
http://archiveofourown.org/works/130...pters/29818341

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Now I understand the meme of everyone at DC being a "Chad"

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...21423979958272

----------


## G-Potion

> Going back on topic, kind of.
> 
> Today I found out that one of the fics that I was enjoying the most these past few weeks, has finished. It's pretty good, imho. Rather friendly to all kind of fans of Hood, with good portayals of the characters, an interesting time-traveling themed plot and a satisfying ending. Give if a try if you are curious: it's not too long.
> 
> Two Dead Birds
> http://archiveofourown.org/works/130...pters/29818341


Thanks for the rec! Never checked it out because I wasn't too interested in time travel, but if you say it's good, I'll definitely give it a go now.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Now I understand the meme of everyone at DC being a "Chad"
> 
> https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...21423979958272


There was a meme?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah. Since that photo with Didio, Lee, Johns, Romita Jr, Scott Snyder showing all of them on excellent shape it became an in joke that working out and being attractive was a requirement to work at DC  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah. Since that photo with Didio, Lee, Johns, Romita Jr, Scott Snyder showing all of them on excellent shape it became an in joke that working out and being attractive was a requirement to work at DC


At this point, it happens so many times it's not even a meme anymore. People joking about Jorge Jiménez using himself as a model for Superman is also starting to feel real :___D.

----------


## Zaresh

> Thanks for the rec! Never checked it out because I wasn't too interested in time travel, but if you say it's good, I'll definitely give it a go now.


Hope you like as much as I did. I must confess that I'm a sucker for time-traveling plots. But I really think this one was good by itself.

----------


## Aioros22

http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/


http://lapuger.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Annnnnd the Sass continues!

----------


## G-Potion

> http://lapuger.tumblr.com/


Cute... but also morbid.

----------


## G-Potion

> Annnnnd the Sass continues!


He still has the fear factor down pretty well.  :Stick Out Tongue:  And it's a great feeling to see the white streak proudly out and about.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I'm somewhat burned out of fan webseries since they usually fall on the pitfalls of having "Iconic" scenes in detriment of the narrative and less than stellar costumes and acting but I have to give to these guys, they nailed the costume. Hopefully everything else is up to the same standard.


I feel the same way. General population regarding Batman fans seem to only focus on the edgy material of Jason Todd.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Annnnnd the Sass continues!


Gawd Damn! Look at Jason Todd and that classic look! Squared jaw, linebacker size, scruff, and the WHITE STREAK!

----------


## Jovos2099

i cant wait until injustice Bruce finds out Jason is alive i wonder what his reaction will be.

----------


## Aahz

> i cant wait until injustice Bruce finds out Jason is alive i wonder what his reaction will be.


I'm wondering if they will do a origin story, but at least the next solits didn't sound like there would be an issues that focuses on him.

----------


## Aioros22

> i cant wait until injustice Bruce finds out Jason is alive i wonder what his reaction will be.


10 bucks he already knows. 

"You beat me up with the love of a son, I`m so proud somehow".

----------


## Aioros22

Last issue of Detective is out today and Jason is a lead voice in the mock-up discussion about Kate. 

Spill your beans and tell us what you think of his characterization. Yes, even you Dark.

----------


## Aioros22

From the Vault: 





Bruce being a concerned papa and Could we please have Nocturna and Nigthslayer back? That storyline was a highlight at the time.

----------


## RedBird

> Last issue of Detective is out today and Jason is a lead voice in the mock-up discussion about Kate. 
> 
> Spill your beans and tell us what you think of his characterization. Yes, even you Dark.


Whelp, I am somewhat mixed. I liked that Jason was a voice of reason, well, more like a voice of call out, but the point stands. :P I also liked that he was the first to really criticize and point out the unnecessary theatrics of such a meeting and the fact that Bruce clearly had another agenda, and that it wasn't even about the act of killing, even though I guess he ultimately mistook Bruces agenda as him being in denial over Kates allegiance and the boundaries of their respect for one another, (perhaps something Jason is a little more familiar with :P) when it was actually apparently about Bruces perception of his own mother, her morality and in extension by relation, Kates. 

Can I be disappointed over the fact that Tynions is also amplifying this whole false notion about Jason 'not killing anymore'? Yes and no
To be honest if the rhato books had made that implication a bit more clear, rather than having to hear it through some interview sit down, maybe I would feel way more disappointed that a more high profile book is giving a vastly different perception to Jasons character, as is, I can't very well feel indignant, I myself had thought (rather worried) that THIS tec version of Jason *was* the status that Lobdell was aiming for with rhato, and whilst I'm super glad to hear that was never the case, its not something that has been refuted either. SO. sigh.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Whether that morality was made clear or not, I'm blaming editorial either way. I thought bringing rhato under the batline would help to keep inconsistencies like these in check. My mistake I guess.


Can I be disappointed over the fact that Tynions is also amplifying this whole false notion about Jason 'not killing anymore' because _'I just wanna be like you GuYS'?_ Most certainly I can.
That was perhaps the most 'fanfictiony' part of Jasons characterization. But, you know. It is Tynion after all.

I know it seems like I had way more negative feelings about it then positive, but overall I kinda liked it. Or rather, it was fine. Tynions Jason is generally FINE in small doses, but when he exaggerates elements, such as Jasons longing to be within a family in such a blunt and *basic* way, it just further reinstates for me, why I don't want him writing Jason in any long running series.

----------


## The Dying Detective

Somethings were off I think Mr. Tynion misunderstood Jason's desire to prove to Batman he is necessary for his war on crime a little. But I am impressed that Jason did not take the moral high ground in this issue.

----------


## Alycat

> Last issue of Detective is out today and Jason is a lead voice in the mock-up discussion about Kate. 
> 
> Spill your beans and tell us what you think of his characterization. Yes, even you Dark.


I liked it. As a well-known hater of Tec, I was just glad that people were laying into Bruce as a united front and not over something dumb.

----------


## G-Potion

Can I get a spoiler please? Too lazy to pick up the issue.  :Frown:

----------


## RedBird

> Can I get a spoiler please? Too lazy to pick up the issue.


Let me just clarify, you are asking for spoilers yeah, not spoilers tags.
Did you want the deets? I could upload pics from my comixcopy

----------


## G-Potion

> Let me just clarify, you are asking for spoilers yeah, not spoilers tags.
> Did you want the deets? I could upload pics from my comixcopy


Spoiler tags are just as good! I'd love to read how you interpret the scene. Thanks!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## RedBird

I think this was a misunderstanding G, I was asking whether you wanted spoiler tags on the post I already did, or did you want actual spoilers for what went down in the issue  :Big Grin: . And sorry since I already wrote about my feelings on Jasons appearance in this issue above, just a few posts back. I'm just gonna layout the important parts of the issue here to keep you up to date kay? (with spoiler tags just in case I misunderstood again)
 :Smile: 

Well, *spoilers:*
 the issue has Kate in the background the whole time lamenting about the choice she has made and the damage she has done, especially to Cassandra whose pain and grief reminds her of when she was a young child burying her mother. She expresses these feelings with Luke who says that he is with her no matter what and so is JPV. Cass is brought to the manor and is occupied by Alfred who asks her to help him with chores instead. Meanwhile the batfamily consisting of Dick, Jason, Babs, Tim and Damian are gathered by Bruce into a meeting more so than a trial. Bruce states that they are all his family and that he both trusts and values their opinions.

Everyone got a turn to speak on behalf of Kate and what should be done about her now; 

Tim uses his entrance into the superhero world as a way of displaying the idealistic viewpoint he has. Mainly that Batman and Robin were beacons to both Gotham and him and both were bettered by their existence, justifying his plans for the belfry and for the future of Batman this way. Basically pushing Kates decision as ultimately something cynical, something that didn't 'better' the team of Batman and is therefore something he is vehemently against. 

_"It was the cynical move. The move that comes from believing in the worst as inevitable. I can't think that way..."
_


Dick, explains that he doesn't LIKE to judge people and always wants to see the best in them, wanting to believe that Kate made the decision she did because she believed their was no other outcome. BUT, he very much believes that Kate has to atone for this in some way. He claims she could earn trust back, even though he doesnt believe she is even ready for that, and that Kate shouldnt wear the bat, at least for a while.

_"If I had made that call. You might not have thrown me in jail, but I don't think I'd be sitting at this table without some serious atonement."_



Next is Damian and I'll just write what happens with Damians opinion since its short.
Dick: _I don't know, what do you think Damian?_
Damian: _tt, I don't think any of you should be able to call yourselves bat-family_
Dick: _That all you have to say_
Damian: _What else is there to say?_


Next up, Jason. 
Here's where things start to take a turn. I think its best if I just quote him entirely here. (Also Jason is MVP)

_“I’m sure you’re all expecting me to be on her side. And you’re right, but you’re not right for the reason you think you’re right. I’m not stupid enough to try and make a sincere argument for killing people who deserve it in the bat-cave. I still have enough respect for this place. And for you, Bruce. Believe it or not. That’s why I haven’t been going lethal. Being here, being one of all of you… It’s important to me. I lost it for a while, and I wanted it back. So I made an agreement that I might not fully buy into in exchange for that.

But I don't like this. This round table. This trial. Its a show, Bruce. Its not even about her killing Clayface. You have your rules and you have your way of doing things, and she decided that your way wasn't enough.. She hurt your ego, and now you're throwing a little tantrum because somebody you respect broke your rules.
Family is family. I can make room on the black sheep side of the table if I need to. But I say she stays."_

Like I said, I already posted about my feelings on his characterization above, so I enjoyed this call out but not so much the moral stance that Tynion takes on, since its not entirely true and also simplifies Jasons reasoning somewhat.


Jason had his mini call out, knowing there was some underlying reason for this and it damn sure wasn't about killing, however, Babs delivers the final blow, with the truth. (she had earlier in the issue been researching and working hard to 'formulate an opinion', which was code for 'Bruce is lying again and Ima figure out what it is this time')

She asks Bruce what was the purpose for the Belfry in the first place? Tim tries to say the reasons before she shuts him down, claiming she is not looking for the reasons from an idealistic teenager. Bruce denies even knowing what Babs is trying to get to and she pushes on, explaining that Bruce never believed in Tim's Utopia, but that he was just using Tims idealistic ideas and the team to steer his cousin Kate away from the path he knew she was headed down. (Ever since she first admitted to wanting to kill as a child).

She rips into the Belfry and the notion of its existence as nothing more than a foil for Bruce to make Kate believe in his way as much as Tim does. 

(Minor interruption with a frame of Jason saying "I wish I had popcorn" :P and continue)
_
"You didn't want her to be a soldier. You wanted her to be a bat. and you thought you could use Tims plan to make that happen."_

Babs mentions that this conversation was a long time coming, and that she was going to argue about the Knights existence every since she talked to Steph, (who has since left the TEC group). She is basically saying that the Knights was not a concept that was made to last by Bruce and therefore is flawed in its existence.

Tim objects to Babs, claiming the Knights program did and will work, and Babs bites back with "what about Cassandra?". She points out that the poor girl has been tortured and neglected, living in some run down theater attic with hardly any ability to speak and that the most human connection she has made in months was with a super villain. Bruce interjects, with this claim that he neglected the girl for his end goal, stating he would never do anything to hurt Cass. This is where Babs finally spills the beans and states as part of her theory that the real reason Bruce has called them here is because Bruce doesn't know the answer, but he knows that they know him better than he knows himself. That this whole thing is because Kate is the closest living thing to his mother, Martha, and what kind of person she may have been. Ultimately that he is worried that Martha may have been the kind of person who would have wanted him to 'take the shot' which is bringing up a whole lot more problems within Bruce, more so than Kate and her being a Bat.

She tells Bruce that Kate is not his child, he can't tell her what to do, he can only accept her. That the only one to judge Kate is herself, which Babs is sure is whats happening right now.
_
"Jasons right, although not as right as he thinks he is. This isn't about her. This is about about you."_


Cut to Kate at her mothers grave, as stated before, lamenting over what she has done and feeling the guilt from Cass's eyes, the same eyes that she saw in herself as a child. She worries that she may have walked off the path by allowing that pain to occur again, and so, feeling that she has to return to who she truly is in order to make her mother proud again. Her father arrives and asks her is she has made up her mind and she finally accepts to be the leader of the colony.


Whew, hope that covers it, at least plot wise.


*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

Haha yeah I probably should've guessed that's what you meant. Been a long day, my brain's not working apparently. But, thank you so much for the super detailed writeup! With this I should be able to understand your previous post better. Up to read now!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Can I be disappointed over the fact that Tynions is also amplifying this whole false notion about Jason 'not killing anymore' because _'I just wanna be like you GuYS'?_ Most certainly I can.
> That was perhaps the most 'fanfictiony' part of Jasons characterization. But, you know. It is Tynion after all.
> 
> I know it seems like I had way more negative feelings about it then positive, but overall I kinda liked it. Or rather, it was fine. Tynions Jason is generally FINE in small doses, but when he exaggerates elements, such as Jasons longing to be within a family in such a blunt and *basic* way, it just further reinstates for me, why I don't want him writing Jason in any long running series.


To be fair for all that they're not matching with rhato this is still probably going to be one of the few better displays I'm going to get to see from Tec. Very small too but him saying "I made an agreement I don't fully buy into" and bringing up he's not going to make arguements on killing at least tells me he's holding back out of respect but none of this changes how he feels about killing. 

What I'm more interested in from Jay's stance is yeah on a meta level he's right. Next to any story with Bruce in it always gets framed a certain way and Bruce's emotions are put on highlight even if it's not even telling a story about Bruce. I could name the fact both Damian and Jason's entire resurrections don't go through their feelings it goes through Bruce's pain and frankly an aftermath where Cass rightfully is the most affected person now ends up giving Cass about no lines and turns into Bruce being unable to deal with his feelings about Martha once again.  

The other more interesting thing though is how much all the characters are finally willing to call Bruce out on this. Babs really went for it, Jason called him out on a tantrum right off and maybe it depends how you read it but it sounds like Damian also finds this whole jury behaviour unbefitting for people trying to call eachother family. This looks like it's come a long way from the old "Bruce decides the rules and he is right" mindset I would have expected in a bat centric book.

----------


## G-Potion

> To be fair for all that they're not matching with rhato this is still probably going to be one of the few better displays I'm going to get to see from Tec. Very small too but him saying "I made an agreement I don't fully buy into" and bringing up he's not going to make arguements on killing at least tells me he's holding back out of respect but none of this changes how he feels about killing.


With only reading RedBird's summary so far, I do feel the same as you. As long as Jason doesn't "fully buy into" it, it's an indication to me that he can't keep this up forever just out of respect for the family because at some point his own sense of judgement will win over, and I like that he is up front about it. If I'm optimistic, I'd say that this line does a good job of foreshadowing a darker path for RHATO where Jason might have to kill again.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?

----------


## G-Potion

> The other more interesting thing though is how much all the characters are finally willing to call Bruce out on this. Babs really went for it, Jason called him out on a tantrum right off and maybe it depends how you read it but it sounds like Damian also finds this whole jury behaviour unbefitting for people trying to call eachother family. This looks like it's come a long way from the old "Bruce decides the rules and he is right" mindset I would have expected in a bat centric book.


I can't believe I'd say this but, next to Jason and Babs, Damian really impressed me here. His little comment packed more punch than Tim's and Dick's.

----------


## RedBird

> To be fair for all that they're not matching with rhato this is still probably going to be one of the few better displays I'm going to get to see from Tec. Very small too but him saying "I made an agreement I don't fully buy into" and bringing up he's not going to make arguements on killing at least tells me he's holding back out of respect but none of this changes how he feels about killing.


True, its not the worst display of Jasons morality, like I said, I like it but still, Tynion tends to, exaggerate. I wasn't stating that Jason in Tynions writing is 'changed', of course he is holding back out of respect, however the idea that he is willing to *completely* give up his ideals and morality just to be 'part of the club' is what I can't agree to, that reasoning makes Jason sound like he is willing to give up something that has been an essential part of his character if it means he gets to sit at the 'big boys table'. Its an idea that I was against in the first place and was glad to hear that Lodbells approach was instead to _compromise_ between Jason and Bruce. Again, its not the worst characterization by any means, of course Jason wants to be part of a family, but this approach is still an oversimplification.




> What I'm more interested in from Jay's stance is yeah on a meta level he's right. Next to any story with Bruce in it always gets framed a certain way and Bruce's emotions are put on highlight even if it's not even telling a story about Bruce. I could name the fact both Damian and Jason's entire resurrections don't go through their feelings it goes through Bruce's pain and frankly an aftermath where Cass rightfully is the most affected person now ends up giving Cass about no lines and turns into Bruce being unable to deal with his feelings about Martha once again.  
> 
> The other more interesting thing though is how much all the characters are finally willing to call Bruce out on this. Babs really went for it, Jason called him out on a tantrum right off and maybe it depends how you read it but it sounds like Damian also finds this whole jury behaviour unbefitting for people trying to call eachother family. This looks like it's come a long way from the old "Bruce decides the rules and he is right" mindset I would have expected in a bat centric book.


I mean yeah, the whole thing was pretty meta, 

Babs: 'This book is rubbish Bruce, wheres Cass's screen time? How come Steph has been driven off? Why is the book all about Kate leading and Tims ideas and inventions huh?' :P

Jokes aside, honestly those are great points, I hadn't even considered that point for Damian. My thoughts were that he was just verbally lashing out and feeling defensive, due to him feeling as though he has no place to judge (history and all that). But I think you hit the nail on the head. Okay one point for calling out goes to Damian as well, he can be on the scoreboard with Jason and Babs. :P




> I can't believe I'd say this but, next to Jason and Babs, Damian really impressed me here. His little comment packed more punch than Tim's and Dick's.


Right? I can't believe how much that one went over my head.




> With only reading RedBird's summary so far, I do feel the same as you. As long as Jason doesn't "fully buy into" it, it's an indication to me that he can't keep this up forever just out of respect for the family because at some point his own sense of judgement will win over, and I like that he is up front about it. If I'm optimistic, I'd say that this line does a good job of foreshadowing a darker path for RHATO where Jason might have to kill again.


Thats an interesting point, perhaps Tynion was laying out some groundwork between this and rhato, if thats the case I'd be mighty impressed. But that would also mean that rhato should then have some kind of interaction between Bruce and Jason, so far, nothing has indicated that. Perhaps that diner scene Soy showed off?

----------


## G-Potion

> Thats an interesting point, perhaps Tynion was laying out some groundwork between this and rhato, if thats the case I'd be mighty impressed. But that would also mean that rhato should then have some kind of interaction between Bruce and Jason, so far, nothing has indicated that. Perhaps that diner scene Soy showed off?


It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P

----------


## EMarie

> True, its not the worst display of Jasons morality, like I said, I like it but still, Tynion tends to, exaggerate. I wasn't stating that Jason in Tynions writing is 'changed', of course he is holding back out of respect, however the idea that he is willing to *completely* give up his ideals and morality just to be 'part of the club' is what I can't agree to, that reasoning makes Jason sound like he is willing to give up something that has been an essential part of his character if it means he gets to sit at the 'big boys table'. Its an idea that I was against in the first place and was glad to hear that Lodbells approach was instead to _compromise_ between Jason and Bruce. Again, its not the worst characterization by any means, of course Jason wants to be part of a family, but this approach is still an oversimplification.


Right. I always get impression that Tynion doesn't really get the depth of Jason or RHATO. Is Jason even really "part of the club"? This is the same character that couldn't admit to Dick he just wanted to bond with him in the Annual and struggled to communicate with him. That told Artemis that these Bat family weren't family in a way that mattered to him and he didn't know if they could be after everything. This sounds like Jason gave up on his beliefs on the chance he can be allowed to be part of the family again. I don't like that at all.

As for Babs maybe she was only half listening.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?


"Jasons right, although not as right as he thinks he is. This isn't about her. This is about about you."

Well in all honesty, I thought so too. Perhaps Tynion was referring to the fact that Jasons argument still rested upon the fact that Kate broke Batmans rules and that he was having a 'tantrum' over her not falling in line. When in reality its more about Bruces inner conflict with his perception of his mother and if she would have reacted the same way Kate did. 


Its not really about Kate and what she did, its about what that means to Bruces own psyche.
Basically Bruce makes a batfam members actions about himself, more than ever. :P

----------


## RedBird

> It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P


You see, not so hard :P



*
I have proudly stopped killing!* 

.....
..
.
*FAKE COUGH* In Gotham

----------


## EMarie

> It would be better in sync with RHATO had Tynion let Jason add an extra "in Gotham btw, elsewhere is fair game". :P


I thought of that too. : P I feel like it oversimplified Jason's actual deal with Bruce and didn't get into Damian's past like it should of.

----------


## G-Potion

> You see, not so hard :P
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I have proudly stopped killing!* 
> 
> .....
> ..
> ...


Hahaha that would be 10/10

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm a bit curious about why Babs corrects what Jason says, because it sounds to me like they are saying the same thing? Just from different angle?


I found that weird too and I believe It was just badly worded.  Technically its a different point about the same person, with Barbara going as far as saying is because of Martha.

----------


## G-Potion

> "Jasons right, although not as right as he thinks he is. This isn't about her. This is about about you."
> 
> Well in all honesty, I thought so too. Perhaps Tynion was referring to the fact that Jasons argument still rested upon the fact that Kate broke Batmans rules and that he was having a 'tantrum' over her not falling in line. When in reality its more about Bruces inner conflict with his perception of his mother and if she would have reacted the same way Kate did. 
> 
> 
> Its not really about Kate and what she did, its about what that means to Bruces own psyche.
> Basically Bruce makes a batfam members actions about himself, more than ever. :P


Honestly I found Jason's argument more grounded and relevant to what we know of the characters, why Babs' feels a little reaching.

----------


## RedBird

> Right. I always get impression that Tynion doesn't really get the depth of Jason or RHATO. Is Jason even really "part of the club"? This is the same character that couldn't admit to Dick he just wanted to bond with him in the Annual and struggled to communicate with him. That told Artemis that these Bat family weren't family in a way that mattered to him and he didn't know if they could be after everything. This sounds like Jason gave up on his beliefs on the chance he can be allowed to be part of the family again. I don't like that at all.
> 
> As for Babs maybe she was only half listening.


Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.

----------


## Aioros22

> You see, not so hard :P
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I have proudly stopped killing!* 
> 
> .....
> ..
> ...


Spilling coffee and 100 points!!

I mean, he does clearly imply it he respects the place but your way is way funnier and meta. And deliciously In character still.

----------


## RedBird

> Honestly I found Jason's argument more grounded and relevant to what we know of the characters, why Babs' feels a little reaching.


Of course, but you know, I'm pretty sure this was Tynions 'big reveal' so reachy or not. I think it is meant to be the truth of the matter. Personally speaking, everything about Babs argument felt fine to me, till she somehow figured out that it all connected back to Martha, that's where the 'plot convenience exposition genius' stuff came into play once again, though with Babs at the wheel instead of Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.


Yeah if anything, that part about being a part of the family was the biggest discrepancy between the two books for me, not so much on Jason's moral stance. Even then however, the root, that is _Jason wanting it_, it's still the same. Tynion's Jason has always been more open in sharing his feelings than Lobdell's.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I liked Jason way of describing himself and being open to what the family means for him, but precisely for that is that I don't like his reasoning to stand for Kate. Jason is willing to make a compromise for the family and he's the one more aware of the fact their actions have consequences so it makes no real sense he would stand for that. Furthermore, Jason is the last person that should be calling BS on Bruce's actions considering the way he has been found himself on the receiving end of Bruce's good sides more than once.

----------


## G-Potion

> I found that weird too and I believe It was just badly worded.  Technically its a different point about the same person, with Barbara going as far as saying is because of Martha.


Right? I mean even if what Babs says about Martha is meant to be the true canon reason, it doesn't make what Jason says any less true because we all agree with Jason on a meta level while the Martha is dropped from nowhere.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.


That is a valid concern but whereas he admits It or not, he does want to be on good terms with Bruce and the others, At least as much as It allows. 

The situations arent the same either. I expect him to have difficulties admitting anything Personal to Dick and the other way around happens to be equally true but his relationship with Bruce never faltered with lack of words or standing his ground. Unlike with Dick, its a very debated and revisited relationship among bat Writers. Dick just recently had any development with Jason at all. 

Was he being personal or pragmatically objective?

That said, yeah totally a case of different offices, usually. One wants Jason to have his own family and another wants him with the others. This would actually not clash just as long Jason would be called on big issues only, like this pseudo trial. 

To me this half works because of the subject at hand.

Im not sure i am Hardcore on either camp here. I am  going to let It sit and re-read It again but I like his overall point. Anything else will be on how he presents It.

----------


## EMarie

> Yeah, I mean, I think personally that deep deep down Jason DOES want a family, or at least does long to be at Bruces side once again in some ways. After all that was part of what he lost when he died, and his lamentations in rhato are proof enough of that. But as you said he doesn't believe thats a possibility anymore, thanks to all that has happened. Jason is very self aware as a character as well as insecure about himself and his place among everyone. He can barely admit these feelings of longing to himself, let alone monologue about it to his family.


Exactly. Jason has been burned before by the family and he's hesitant about being open. Tynion just writes Jason saying things without any of the subtlety or depth RHATO has. For Jason to leave himself this open is just baffling. He's not really close to any of them at this point except for maybe Tim. There's more issues with everyone else.

----------


## RedBird

Here's some frames for visual context.

I forgot to mention it before since it wasn't integral to the plot, but the batfam actually has some nice moments in this issue. Cass takes down a disgruntled Damian after he catches her in his room. Babs teases Damian about his shortness, and Tim and Dick get a moment reminiscing about fighting bad guys on trains.
And then the one and only is introduced like this. 

fffdfd.jpg


Jasons Monologue


and also :P

----------


## Aioros22

> Right? I mean even if what Babs says about Martha is meant to be the true canon reason, it doesn't make what Jason says any less true because we all agree with Jason on a meta level while the Martha is dropped from nowhere.


True story but my reaction to what Barbara says was coming off pretentious with the slide correction. 

It was awkwardly placed just so the Martha hook could be dropped

----------


## RedBird

> True story but my reaction to what Barbara says was coming off pretentious with the slide correction. 
> 
> It was awkwardly placed just so the Martha hook could be dropped


At this point its kinda part of the protocol that the batfam can't ever give Jason full credit for his input or imply he is right about something, lest they seem too 'nice' to, or are in agreeance with the black sheep :P

Babs: Jasons right

Bruce: ?
Dick: ?
Tim: ?
Damian: ?
Jason:  :Smile: 


Babs: uh, well. I meant like. Half right.


Bruce: Oh okay
Dick: whew
Tim: thanks goodness
Damian: thats what I thought you said
Jason:  :Frown:

----------


## EMarie

I saw someone claim this was the best written and most in character Jason's been written in years. I don't agree but I don't see why this is a big deal. Jason has stood up to Bruce before, in DOTF I think he was right about points Bruce brushed off. The Kate stuff is just disappointing and I think it would be more compelling if they addressed the RHATO stuff. 

The killing issue is kind of swept to the side to make it all about Bruce's issues. Tim seems really naive to me, maybe because I recall him doing some shady stuff in Red Robin.

----------


## Aahz

I think it was well done, and way better than King's Batfamily scenes.

I also liked that the others were surprised that Jason was present and that he kept him self apart from the rest and didn't sit down at the table with them.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think it was well done, and way better than King's Batfamily scenes.
> 
> I also liked that the others were surprised that Jason was present and that he kept him self apart from the rest and didn't sit down at the table with them.


Yes that was a nice touch. Like even when he says it's important to him to be a part of them, he is not fully.

----------


## Assam

> and didn't sit down at the table with them.


I'm sure if Dick had brought the damn donuts like he was supposed to, he would have sat down.

donuts.jpg

_One_ job, Dick.

----------


## Aahz

> I saw someone claim this was the best written and most in character Jason's been written in years. I don't agree but I don't see why this is a big deal. Jason has stood up to Bruce before, in DOTF I think he was right about points Bruce brushed off.


DOTF is allready 5 years old. And at least his appearances in Batman stories have rarely been well written since then, and he was often treated like just one of the Robins which doesn't really work with his history.

----------


## G-Potion

> At this point its kinda part of the protocol that the batfam can't ever give Jason full credit for his input or imply he is right about something, lest they seem too 'nice' to, or are in agreeance with the black sheep :P
> 
> Babs: Jasons right
> 
> Bruce: ?
> Dick: ?
> Tim: ?
> Damian: ?
> Jason: 
> ...


Should've stayed home. Say his piece through a phone then hang up. :P

----------


## EMarie

> I think it was well done, and way better than King's Batfamily scenes.
> 
> I also liked that the others were surprised that Jason was present and that he kept him self apart from the rest and didn't sit down at the table with them.


True.

Yeah but that made Jason's openness seem weirder. Also they think Damian should be invited but not Jason? Good detail but I think it's should have been more apparent in dialogue instead of the "being accepted back into the family" stuff.




> DOTF is allready 5 years old. And at least his appearances in Batman stories have rarely been well written since then, and he was often treated like just one of the Robins which doesn't really work with his history.


The claim said that Lost Days was the last time Jason was written well which I took to mean in general. I think Jason has been done better in his own titles. But the way I've seen this praised I was just expecting more.

Added: Also Dick invited Jason to the DOTF meeting to confront Bruce and now he's surprised to see him?

----------


## G-Potion

Did they know they'd discuss Batwoman before coming over? If that's the case I think the surprise at Jason's invitation also has to do with the fact that this concern matters of killing, and like Jason said, the family already had an opinion of what he'd say on that.

Or it could simply be that this family change their minds once in a while about whether Jason is a part of or not.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The claim said that Lost Days was the last time Jason was written well which I took to mean in general. I think Jason has been done better in his own titles. But the way I've seen this praised I was just expecting more.


Yeah, that is a ridiculous claim to make. Even if they are willingly ignoring Lobdell's six year tenure, every time Pak wrote Jason was gold. There's also The Last Crusade for alternate versions, the Convergence B&R or even Countdown (that for all its faults actually treated Jason with respect)

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly. Jason has been burned before by the family and he's hesitant about being open. Tynion just writes Jason saying things without any of the subtlety or depth RHATO has. For Jason to leave himself this open is just baffling. He's not really close to any of them at this point except for maybe Tim. There's more issues with everyone else.


Theres no issue In the self contained story tho. Tynion has been clearly writting a solo Jason In his Tec from the start. There hasnt been any mention of Ratho, most notably In this issue with the family subtext. His family here is the bat crew. 

No mention of Ratho either In Jason's Future that is part of the main plot of the whole arc. It is infuriating how different a approach two Offices are on the same character but as far as "his" Jason, Tynion has been fairly consistant with the depiction of a former lone wolf redempted Into the main cast as a main ally.

----------


## Zaresh

> Last issue of Detective is out today and Jason is a lead voice in the mock-up discussion about Kate. 
> 
> Spill your beans and tell us what you think of his characterization. Yes, even you Dark.


A bit late the the party but I liked it, writing wise. I also liked all the others quite a lot: probably the best Tec issue I read in a while by the characterizations alone. A long way from how I felt about the previews issue, in fact.

*@G-Pots*, I think the Disagreement between what Barbara thinks and What Jason thinks is about what made Bruce gather them around that table: it wasn't his ego, but his inability to come to a resolution about Kate because their familial bond.

----------


## Aioros22

> I liked Jason way of describing himself and being open to what the family means for him, but precisely for that is that I don't like his reasoning to stand for Kate. Jason is willing to make a compromise for the family and he's the one more aware of the fact their actions have consequences so it makes no real sense he would stand for that. Furthermore, Jason is the last person that should be calling BS on Bruce's actions considering the way he has been found himself on the receiving end of Bruce's good sides more than once.


That would be so if Tynion aknowledged RATHO but he has not in any direct and meaningful way. In doing it it would be appearant that Jason himself is facing a similar dilema with Bizarro, with the difference being that so far he has yet to suffer direct rammifications or consequences for Bizarro`s actions and has yet to be in the actual place where he has to make a hard cal, like Bruce.

However..that wouldn`t necessarily erase the development in his own book since we also know he`s _chosen_ to fully trust Biz. Yes, it might bite him in the ass but so far Jason is truly someone that is loyal to the concept of Family. By not awknoledging what is going on in his book Tynion is doing a disservice but that`s not the reason the character`s reasoning is wrong, IMO. It`s simply somewhat...not sure the expression. Outdated? Something he would have said in the beginning of Rebirth and not now? 

Not a wrong assertment of character, just lacking somewhat in current development. It`s there but in very vague strokes. I think if you took in consideration his book, Jason would be more _understanding_ of Bruce these days but that doesn`t mean he wouldn`t call this "trial" the bullshit it is. I hope I am making myself clear.

----------


## Aioros22

> and also :P


This boy was born with Sass-Fu and he shoots it like it`s bullets.

----------


## Zaresh

> What I'm more interested in from Jay's stance is yeah on a meta level he's right. Next to any story with Bruce in it always gets framed a certain way and Bruce's emotions are put on highlight even if it's not even telling a story about Bruce. I could name the fact both Damian and Jason's entire resurrections don't go through their feelings it goes through Bruce's pain and frankly an aftermath where Cass rightfully is the most affected person now ends up giving Cass about no lines and turns into Bruce being unable to deal with his feelings about Martha once again.


This is so true... But well, it's to be expected with a bigger than life character like Bruce. He will fagocit and center towards himself any drama in any given situation. He's the one most readers and writers are looking for, unfortunately.

----------


## kiwiliko

> You see, not so hard :P
> 
> 
> 
> *
> I have proudly stopped killing!* 
> 
> .....
> ..
> ...


HEH love it!

----------


## kiwiliko

> True, its not the worst display of Jasons morality, like I said, I like it but still, Tynion tends to, exaggerate. I wasn't stating that Jason in Tynions writing is 'changed', of course he is holding back out of respect, however the idea that he is willing to *completely* give up his ideals and morality just to be 'part of the club' is what I can't agree to, that reasoning makes Jason sound like he is willing to give up something that has been an essential part of his character if it means he gets to sit at the 'big boys table'. Its an idea that I was against in the first place and was glad to hear that Lodbells approach was instead to _compromise_ between Jason and Bruce. Again, its not the worst characterization by any means, of course Jason wants to be part of a family, but this approach is still an oversimplification.


To be entirely honest, I do think it's a point worth exploring what happens where one member in a group needs to balance their wildly contrasting individual belief vs. being part of a family unit. It's got pretty good parallels to real life especially in families experiencing complete overhauls in kids of the new generation no longer adopting the parents/grandparents line of religious beliefs or that good old "student living out their parent's dream career vs. their own." At worst it's emotional blackmail but group cohesion especially in vigilantes demands certain lines of thinking to be the same as each other. Clearly Jason does have the right loyalty traits for this situation and I like the potential of stuff we could unpack from this but yeah, amount of lines and writing Jason's going to get in a book like this is never going to cover that kind of ground.

----------


## Zaresh

> I saw someone claim this was the best written and most in character Jason's been written in years. I don't agree but I don't see why this is a big deal. Jason has stood up to Bruce before, in DOTF I think he was right about points Bruce brushed off. The Kate stuff is just disappointing and I think it would be more compelling if they addressed the RHATO stuff.


Well, technically, DOTF was years ago now. And it's not like most people that read batbooks read RHATO, so one would expect to most people saying such things.




> The killing issue is kind of swept to the side to make it all about Bruce's issues. Tim seems really naive to me, maybe because I recall him doing some shady stuff in Red Robin.


Red Robin isn't in continuity any more, I think. That may be the reason behind putting Tim into so much distress recently: to make him less naive and light once again. In any case, I don't remember him killing anyone, but does remember him working with assassins like it was not big deal.

----------


## Zaresh

> Did they know they'd discuss Batwoman before coming over? If that's the case I think the surprise at Jason's invitation also has to do with the fact that this concern matters of killing, and like Jason said, the family already had an opinion of what he'd say on that.
> 
> Or it could simply be that this family change their minds once in a while about whether Jason is a part of or not.


They did seem to know what the meeting was about, but I think it's the first case. Tim seemed to feel even ashamed for thinking about not inviting Jason (cute boy), so, yeah: I'm betting on the "we know he's OK about killing and probably is not going to be neutral about this matter" reason.

----------


## kaimaciel

I gotta say, I'm disappointed with the Robins and Barbara's reaction upon seeing that Jason was invited, especially since the panels before established their sibling relationship with each other so perfectly. Then Jason appears and there's this... distance. Their smiles fade, the laughter stops. 

I honestly thought they were past that.

----------


## G-Potion

> *@G-Pots*, I think the Disagreement between what Barbara thinks and What Jason thinks is about what made Bruce gather them around that table: it wasn't his ego, but his inability to come to a resolution about Kate because their familial bond.


Yeah that's why the wording is so weird. They are both talking about Bruce, just different aspects of him, so the line "This isn't about her. This is about about you." sounds like Bab is missing the point, but at the same time, comes off as, as Aioros said, pretentious.

----------


## G-Potion

> I gotta say, I'm disappointed with the Robins and Barbara's reaction upon seeing that Jason was invited, especially since the panels before established their sibling relationship with each other so perfectly. Then Jason appears and there's this... distance. Their smiles fade, the laughter stops. 
> 
> I honestly thought they were past that.


It's hard to say if they are past that though. Even in his own book Jason admits to not feeling a part of the family.

----------


## kaimaciel

> It's hard to say if they are past that though. Even in his own book Jason admits to not feeling a part of the family.


I wonder if it is due to receptions like this...

----------


## SpentShrimp

It was good. Really good.

Tynion is one of the few authors who tries to treat Jason with respect when writing him in a book outside of RHatO. He even tries to stay as true to Lobdell's characterization of Jason as possible. 

I liked that Jason basically said he wanted to do everything he could to try and stay close with the people he grew up fighting alongside wit, but hints that at the first sign of things not being handled the way he thinks they should be; he's gonna take action. We're also starting to see Jason become a young, mature, and wiser adult. I think Tynion displayed that very well in this issue.

----------


## Aioros22

> I gotta say, I'm disappointed with the Robins and Barbara's reaction upon seeing that Jason was invited, especially since the panels before established their sibling relationship with each other so perfectly. Then Jason appears and there's this... distance. Their smiles fade, the laughter stops. 
> 
> I honestly thought they were past that.


That`s because when he shows up they know it`s about to go down  :Big Grin: 

I didn`t like Tim`s reaction to Jason being there even if I can logic it with him knowing he would lose a voice in the argument. Jason pretty much starts his speech adressing it. But yes, I agree, it`s sort of smug of him to expect someone not being there just because of what side would be. I similarly didn`t like Barbara`s correction (moves fingers) whether it was Tynion`s actual intent or not. 

Maybe that`s why he doesn`t feel welcome but in truth, he`s doing it mostly out of respect for Bruce and himself which I also like. He`s not doing it to share pancakes because we all know Alfred sucks doing them. 





 :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

Interlude for some artwork!

http://doodlesaresketcheswithnoodles.tumblr.com/
Jason doing his best KOF impression

----------


## G-Potion

Whaaa Jason you just need Roy's cap to complete the Terry Bogard look.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> It was good. Really good.
> 
> Tynion is one of the few authors who tries to treat Jason with respect when writing him in a book outside of RHatO. He even tries to stay as true to Lobdell's characterization of Jason as possible. 
> 
> I liked that Jason basically said he wanted to do everything he could to try and stay close with the people he grew up fighting alongside wit, but hints that at the first sign of things not being handled the way he thinks they should be; he's gonna take action. We're also starting to see Jason become a young, mature, and wiser adult. I think Tynion displayed that very well in this issue.


In BRE Jason was also written as the voice of reason and convinced Dick to let the girls in on the mission. I'll take Tynion's Jason over King's any day.

----------


## Zaresh

> Whaaa Jason you just need Roy's cap to complete the Terry Bogard look.


Oh, Jesus. I cannot unsee that now.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It was good. Really good.
> 
> Tynion is one of the few authors who tries to treat Jason *with respect when writing him* in a book outside of RHatO. He even tries to stay as true to Lobdell's characterization of Jason as possible. 
> 
> I liked that Jason basically said he wanted to do everything he could to try and stay close with the people he grew up fighting alongside wit, but hints that at the first sign of things not being handled the way he thinks they should be; he's gonna take action. We're also starting to see Jason become a young, mature, and wiser adult. I think Tynion displayed that very well in this issue.


Yeah because turning Jason into a coward who needs to be told what to do because he's unable to do anything by himself is so respectful.

He does write Jason better than King, I'll give him that. But the bar isn't high to begin with.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yeah because turning Jason into a coward who needs to be told what to do because he's unable to do anything by himself is so respectful.
> 
> He does write Jason better than King, I'll give him that. But the bar isn't high to begin with.


I'm going to say that this time was just sheer dumb luck on Tynion's part that he managed to write Jason decently here. Most of the time he's actually no better than the rest of the Bat writers when handling the character IMHO and he sure as heck screwed Jason over during his RHATO run. Sorry, but one halfway decent time writing him hardly counts in my book as being able to write Jason well. I also laughed at the description that this is the best Jason has been written since forever. Seriously, there are plenty of other places I could point out where he's been handled decently before now.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And even then, the scene falls apart when you think a little about it. 

_"I miss my family so I stopped killing and they don't hold those old deaths against me anymore"_

This is what Jason posture can be summed up and is far from being a solid or a well thought one.

----------


## EMarie

> Well, technically, DOTF was years ago now. And it's not like most people that read batbooks read RHATO, so one would expect to most people saying such things.
> 
> Red Robin isn't in continuity any more, I think. That may be the reason behind putting Tim into so much distress recently: to make him less naive and light once again. In any case, I don't remember him killing anyone, but does remember him working with assassins like it was not big deal.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That DOTF is invalid? Shared universes seem pointless if no one ever acknowledges them and the growth in other books. The RHATO story would at least be covering new ground and show Kate taking things too far. But even when Tynion wrote RHATO he didn't really get the series.

I know I was noting how odd it was to see Tim this like this after reading that. Tynion started writing him and this is jarring to me. He states there are better ways but is he suggesting anything?




> I'm going to say that this time was just sheer dumb luck on Tynion's part that he managed to write Jason decently here. Most of the time he's actually no better than the rest of the Bat writers when handling the character IMHO and he sure as heck screwed Jason over during his RHATO run. Sorry, but one halfway decent time writing him hardly counts in my book as being able to write Jason well. I also laughed at the description that this is the best Jason has been written since forever. Seriously, there are plenty of other places I could point out where he's been handled decently before now.


Agreed 100 percent. Tynion is lucky when he gets any facet of Jason right. Believe me I had to reread that multiple times to see if I read it correctly. This is a passable at best Jason portrayal.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That DOTF is invalid? Shared universes seem pointless if no one ever acknowledges them and the growth in other books. The RHATO story would at least be covering new ground and show Kate taking things too far. But even when Tynion wrote RHATO he didn't really get the series.


What I mean is that people that don't read outside the main books aren't aware of most of what happens outside those books. And that DOTF was like 5 years ago and so it literally has been years since that interaction. I don't agree with the statement that that was the last time he was written significantly in character in the main books, but still, if you or those people select that story as the last time he was, it certainly has been years.

Also, Red Robin is pre-N52, right? New 52 was a departure for a lot of characters. Writers changed a lot of their traits and background details as far as I know.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Red Robin series is indeed pre N52 but the identity is still active.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> In BRE Jason was also written as the voice of reason and convinced Dick to let the girls in on the mission. I'll take Tynion's Jason over King's any day.


King is just not that good handling the Bat Family at all. He should just stick to Mr. Miracle. Even his take on Kyle Rayner was a little weak when it came to his Catholic faith.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Yeah because turning Jason into a coward who needs to be told what to do because he's unable to do anything by himself is so respectful.
> 
> He does write Jason better than King, I'll give him that. But the bar isn't high to begin with.


When did he turn Jason into a coward? Tell me.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> When did he turn Jason into a coward? Tell me.


When he was in charge of RHATO. Issue 19 to be exact.


Did you guys heard the rumor of a new imprint focised on R-rated Elseworlds in the vein of White Knight, Master Race and New Order? 

That is an idea that seems perfect for Jason. Without the constrains of being part of the batfamily Jason could thrive.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> When he was in charge of RHATO. Issue 19 to be exact.
> 
> 
> Did you guys heard the rumor of a new imprint focised on R-rated Elseworlds in the vein of White Knight, Master Race and New Order? 
> 
> That is an idea that seems perfect for Jason. Without the constrains of being part of the batfamily Jason could thrive.


I didn't see him as a coward in that run.

So we could get a Red Hood: Max run? I'd be down.

----------


## EMarie

> What I mean is that people that don't read outside the main books aren't aware of most of what happens outside those books. And that DOTF was like 5 years ago and so it literally has been years since that interaction. I don't agree with the statement that that was the last time he was written significantly in character in the main books, but still, if you or those people select that story as the last time he was, it certainly has been years.
> 
> Also, Red Robin is pre-N52, right? New 52 was a departure for a lot of characters. Writers changed a lot of their traits and background details as far as I know.


I feel like the writers and editors should know. Years back there was more of a sense of consistency where now characters can change on a dime based on who's writing them. I didn't agree with that statement about Jason not being written well in years either. 

I was more or less mentioning it for the irony of Tim previously trying to kill his dad's murderer but even in New 52 Tim to pre-Tynion he wasn't written like this. Tim knew multiple ways to handle a situation and didn't condemn Jason for what he did. Jason still killed when they started acting like brothers. Tim tired to understand why and knew others didn't. He wasn't written as someone who's shocked at the very notion of Jason being part of a family meeting.

----------


## RedBird

doublejiolo3

----------


## G-Potion

> doublejiolo3


Oooh I like this a lot!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.cbr.com/injustice-2-impo...todd-red-hood/

CBR just did an article on Jason's reveal and I agree with the general sentiment even if disagreeing how they tooth the Comic horn a bit much and call It cheap In the AK where despite not knowing beforehand that "Red Hood" was the goal of a journey, like in Injustice, nonetheless a similar effect takes place. 

Oh and Gold and Blue didnt get merked, I ressent that. Gold is punched through buildings but has his field on and Blue is hinted to be one of the few who could harm Amazo and they dont even clash because Supergirl. 

Who wrote this thing, Superman?

----------


## Aioros22

> Whaaa Jason you just need Roy's cap to complete the Terry Bogard look.


I knew someone would get the reference, my man.

----------


## Aioros22

Can anyone give a source for the rumored R-Rathed Elsewords imprint?

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.cbr.com/injustice-2-impo...todd-red-hood/
> 
> CBR just did an article on Jason's reveal and I agree with the general sentiment even if disagreeing how they tooth the Comic horn a bit much and call It cheap In the AK where despite not knowing beforehand that "Red Hood" was the goal of a journey, like in Injustice, nonetheless a similar effect takes place.


Agree. AK as I see it focused on the journey Jason went in the wake of his trauma to finally overcoming it while Injustice is building up to his Red Hood image. AK was never about the shocking reveal, any more than its Injustice counterpart. Same thing, only the focused parts of the journey are different.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I feel like the writers and editors should know. Years back there was more of a sense of consistency where now characters can change on a dime based on who's writing them.


Years back there were continuity and character bibles that writers and editors referred to or so I've heard. It also helped that creative teams stayed on a book longer back then as well so a character got consistent characterization from that writer, which made it easier for other writers to make their portrayals consistent too. I don't believe they even have continuity or character bibles anymore based on how screwed up continuity gets plus how often characters are mishandled outside of their own titles and writer turnover on books is a lot higher now than it was back then, which doesn't help.

----------


## Aahz

Years ago most of the books were written by Cuck Dixon...

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## TheCape

> I feel like the writers and editors should know. Years back there was more of a sense of consistency where now characters can change on a dime based on who's writing them. I didn't agree with that statement about Jason not being written well in years either. 
> 
> I was more or less mentioning it for the irony of Tim previously trying to kill his dad's murderer but even in New 52 Tim to pre-Tynion he wasn't written like this. Tim knew multiple ways to handle a situation and didn't condemn Jason for what he did. Jason still killed when they started acting like brothers. Tim tired to understand why and knew others didn't. He wasn't written as someone who's shocked at the very notion of Jason being part of a family meeting.


Consistency in charactherization and continuity went away from DC around 2003, it was gradual and not all at once, but litle by little thing were getting weird and confusing regarding boths.

----------


## Aioros22

"Character Bibles" can be restraining for a writer as well. I say let writers write and let Editors - those who should be interested in keeping shared consistancy - supervise.

----------


## Assam

Have you guys looked at the Kickstarter for Gotham City Chronicles? 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ity-chronicles

I only bring it up here because I think Jason has one of the coolest player pieces and figured y'all would be interested.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Can anyone give a source for the rumored R-Rathed Elsewords imprint?


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02...ed-elseworlds/




> "Character Bibles" can be restraining for a writer as well. I say let writers write and let Editors - those who should be interested in keeping shared consistancy - supervise.


Nah. Character bibles are a must if you want to have a consistent ongoing narrative of one character across multiple books, something that as we all know, has been an issue with Jason since the start. Don't forget Collins even complained about the lack of one when he started his tenure on Batman.




> Have you guys looked at the Kickstarter for Gotham City Chronicles? 
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ity-chronicles
> 
> I only bring it up here because I think Jason has one of the coolest player pieces and figured y'all would be interested.


The box uses Rebirth art. The Jason piece is the old UtRH design...

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## The Dying Detective

> Consistency in charactherization and continuity went away from DC around 2003, it was gradual and not all at once, but litle by little thing were getting weird and confusing regarding boths.


The kind of continuity DC and Marvel has is very unwieldy to be honest I am actually surprised that anyone would not be able to remain consistent. But then again Alan Moore did propose the return of the old DC Multiverse when he pitched his Twilight of the Superheroes story. While the story was a What If story it also would have served as a sort of grand finale to DC Universe and through it writers can add or subtract anything they wish. Writers are allowed to do as they wished more and fans get some level stability with consistency and everyone wins. Alan Morre even brought up that with through this scenario you could even market a DC based Dungeon and Dragons style because that's what Twilight of the Superheroes was set in a world that degenerated into a world where superheroes were given the power to rule the world and it became a feudal society.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02...ed-elseworlds/


Perfect place for Jason. Now if only DC thinks the same.

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## SpentShrimp

> Perfect place for Jason. Now if only DC thinks the same.


I'd like to see a well written, non-Punisher copy, solo for Red Hood.

----------


## Assam

> I'd like to see a well written, non-Punisher copy, solo for Red Hood.


I'm actually curious: Were Lobdell to decide he was done with Jason at the end of this run and DC decided to immediately give Jason a new book, who would y'all want to write it?

Also, were DC to decide not continue giving Jason his own books, where would you want him?

----------


## G-Potion

Oh wow.

https://jasontoddscoffin.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Daaang this is so awesome!!

http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

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## RedBird

Lady-Yen-Bug

----------


## magpieM

> I'm actually curious: Were Lobdell to decide he was done with Jason at the end of this run and DC decided to immediately give Jason a new book, who would y'all want to write it?
> 
> Also, were DC to decide not continue giving Jason his own books, where would you want him?


Does 'this run' indicate the current Rebirth RHATO series that started in Summer 2016? I really know little about the bigger picture of the 'Rebirth' in DC. Are all of the DC comic books within the scope of Rebirth have to consistent with each other in the timeline for Doomsday Clock? 

Does it mean that the Doomsday Clock will have something to do with RHATO story? Or in other words, current RHATO is not a completely independent story. It may be affected or even stopped because of the progress of the Doomsday Clock?

----------


## Zaresh

> Does 'this run' indicate the current Rebirth RHATO series that started in Summer 2016? I really know little about the bigger picture of the 'Rebirth' in DC. Are all of the DC comic books within the scope of Rebirth have to consistent with each other in the timeline for Doomsday Clock? 
> 
> Does it mean that the Doomsday Clock will have something to do with RHATO story? Or in other words, current RHATO is not a completely independent story. It may be affected or even stopped because of the progress of the Doomsday Clock?


It would be surprising if they put RHATO in line with or involved in any event from Rebirth. So far, even Jason's part in any recent even has been anecdotic and out of his own book. Last time he was involved was, what, 2015? And his part was small iirc.

But I sort of recall someone saying something a few months ago about Jason being a rather central part in an incoming event, even if I doubt it would be this year, if that even happens and isn't dropped in the end.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Daaang this is so awesome!!
> 
> http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


Couldn't agree more.

----------


## RedBird

Bones and Sinews


Whats this then? Looks pretty action packed. Those certainly look like the Red Ronin swords on Jasons back, but thats clearly the Rebirth outfit is it not?  :Smile:

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## Aioros22

> Bones and Sinews
> 
> 
> Whats this then? Looks pretty action packed. Those certainly look like the Red Ronin swords on Jasons back, but thats clearly the Rebirth outfit is it not?


Damn the shot looks amazing! Glad to see the katanas back into the fold  :Wink:

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## magpieM

> It would be surprising if they put RHATO in line with or involved in any event from Rebirth. So far, even Jason's part in any recent even has been anecdotic and out of his own book. Last time he was involved was, what, 2015? And his part was small iirc.
> 
> But I sort of recall someone saying something a few months ago about Jason being a rather central part in an incoming event, even if I doubt it would be this year, if that even happens and isn't dropped in the end.


I see. I just read the 'endgame of Rebirth/Doomsday Clock' thread. Then I got a vague impression that all Rebirth titles were eventually attached to the Doomsday Clock stuff, and that how far the Dark Trinity can go might also depend on it...

----------


## G-Potion

> Bones and Sinews
> 
> 
> Whats this then? Looks pretty action packed. Those certainly look like the Red Ronin swords on Jasons back, but thats clearly the Rebirth outfit is it not?


OMG Im just dying happy because swords are backkk.

----------


## G-Potion

Seems like with the swords he is going more violent like Lobdell said. Wonder about that shot in the picture. Looks like it hits the guy? That makes those guns actually lethal now.

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## The Dying Detective

> Seems like with the swords he is going more violent like Lobdell said. Wonder about that shot in the picture. Looks like it hits the guy? That makes those guns actually lethal now.


Hope the editors are not interfering and making him go overboard.

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## Aioros22

Is this even in Gotham? 

Bruce: Jason what did I t..

Jason: Hush, the deal was in Gotham. This was out. 

Batman; bu..

Jason. No buts. Out.

----------


## G-Potion

If it still has to do with Penguin then large chance he'll still be in Gotham. But he can always go "Don't worry Bruce, I lured 'em one step out of Gotham and everything".  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## RedBird

> If it still has to do with Penguin then large chance he'll still be in Gotham. But he can always go "Don't worry Bruce, I lured 'em one step out of Gotham and everything".


Hey, what do you guys think was meant to be established status quo between Bruce and Jason at the end of rhato rebirth #6? Ever since the latest TEC drama there seems to be varying opinions about Jasons willingness to kill and what Bruce would allow. (Though I should mention it was only after Lobdells interview I was able to make a more finalized conclusion)

Considering the factors that; 

Bruce can and has worked alongside heroes/cops who do kill if need be, so there is already leeway to be had there and despite how some interpret it, he is not arrogant enough to assume his sense of justice is the only absolute.

That Jason has made it clear that his sense of justice is no longer warped with enacting revenge of any sort, or disrespecting Bruces legacy by way of leading his own crusade within Gotham.

And considering the narrative, the fact that the entire arc begins with Jason feeling upset that Bruce assumed the worst of him (during the assassination ploy) and didn't TRUST him, leading to Bruce allowing him to work in Gotham only if he respects his non lethal rules, to which Jason follows. Leading the arc to end with both a sense of trust and respect gained between the two and Bruce telling Jason that he is fine with him 'not being batman' and that 'maybe we could do with a few outlaws'. 

I interpreted the conclusion to the first arc of rhato as Bruce finally _trusting_ Jason to make the hard decisions, and trusting him with the responsibility of taking _lethal_ measures when need be, as long as he respects the boundaries of Gotham, which is Bruces domain.

What did you guys read it as?

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce can and has worked alongside heroes/cops who do kill if need be, so there is already leeway to be had there and despite how some interpret it, he is not arrogant enough to assume his sense of justice is the only absolute.


He even worked with Etrigan and tolerated his presence in Gotham.

----------


## G-Potion

> I interpreted the conclusion to the first arc of rhato as Bruce finally _trusting_ Jason to make the hard decisions, and trusting him with the responsibility of taking _lethal_ measures when need be, as long as he respects the boundaries of Gotham, which is Bruces domain.
> 
> What did you guys read it as?


Yeah that's how I read it too. Considering in BR:Eternal Bruce also admitted to Damian that Jason can do things Batman can't, it has been pretty clear for quite some time that Bruce isn't too stubborn to think of his way as absolute anymore. Also in RHATO#6 Jason also said that's the last time he plays by Bruce's rule, and Bruce reacted by bursting out laughing. So yeah, pretty evident that he doesn't mind Jason following his own code. That's why it's so strange that editorial had Lobdell change his script so that he wouldn't kill in Quarac because he 'promised'. Did they miss the point?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah that's how I read it too. Considering in BR:Eternal Bruce also admitted to Damian that Jason can do things Batman can't, it has been pretty clear for quite some time that Bruce isn't too stubborn to think of his way as absolute anymore. Also in RHATO#6 Jason also said that's the last time he plays by Bruce's rule, and Bruce reacted by bursting out laughing. So yeah, pretty evident that he doesn't mind Jason following his own code. That's why it's so strange that editorial had Lobdell change his script so that he wouldn't kill in Quarac because he 'promised'. Did they miss the point?


The Batman Eternal scenario I can buy though some critics on Wikipedia called the scene where he admits to Jason while laughing that he doesn't mind him following his code to be out of character. I have to admit it is a little debatable considering how much of a legalist Batman can be.

----------


## EMarie

Considering Bruce once let Selina get away with killing Black Mask I don't think it's out of character. Bruce can make exceptions and tolerate others. The thing with the editors is weird since Jason was clearly considering killing Bizarro to save lives in #7.

I do think something will happen with that promise being broken or perceived as broken. Jason could be forced to take a life in Gotham or a villain frames him to cause friction between the bats.

----------


## G-Potion

> The Batman Eternal scenario I can buy though some critics on Wikipedia called the scene where he admits to Jason while laughing that he doesn't mind him following his code to be out of character. I have to admit it is a little debatable considering how much of a legalist Batman can be.


None of the Batfam can be considered legalist in the purest meaning of the word though. In fact, in RHATO#6 he laughed because he admitted it himself that none of what he does are seen as law-and-order, as Jason suggested. And as the others have said, Batman has allowed in Gotham, and has worked with worse kind of killers, so by insisting on how much of a legalist Batman is, it only makes him look like a hypocrite. I pointed out the laughing part because it indicated to me that at least that Bruce is (although not 100% happy) accepting enough to do so even as Jason just said 'screw your rule' to his face.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> None of the Batfam can be considered legalist in the purest meaning of the word though. In fact, in RHATO#6 he laughed because he admitted it himself that none of what he does are seen as law-and-order, as Jason suggested. And as the others have said, Batman has allowed in Gotham, and has worked with worse kind of killers, so by insisting on how much of a legalist Batman is, it only makes him look like a hypocrite. I pointed out the laughing part because it indicated to me that at least that Bruce is (although not 100% happy) accepting enough to do so even as Jason just said 'screw your rule' to his face.


Okay maybe not a real legalist but Batman has been known to be extremely rigid in all he does not that he hasn't compromised before. And some are just very used to Batman's rigidity that him outright admitting that he knows that all that does is not even in accordance with the law and even just saying that he does not mind that Jason doesn't follow his rules makes it surprising to say the least. I must admit it is surprising that Jason transitioned from wanting to prove that Batman's way is flawed to getting him to accept that Batman needs the Red Hood when the events of Untder the Hood did indeed happen on Earth Prime. And even more surprising is that the Red Hood was originally in concept supposed to be Jason from Earth 2 who snapped from trying to live up to Batman's legacy and Jason from Earth 2 would have been Deathstroke's son.

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## The Dying Detective

> Considering Bruce once let Selina get away with killing Black Mask I don't think it's out of character. Bruce can make exceptions and tolerate others. The thing with the editors is weird since Jason was clearly considering killing Bizarro to save lives in #7.
> 
> I do think something will happen with that promise being broken or perceived as broken. Jason could be forced to take a life in Gotham or a villain frames him to cause friction between the bats.


Considering how he judged Deadshot so harshly in Justice League vs Suicide Squad makes these moments where he lets people go even more jarring and can be attributed to inconsistent portrayal. There is always going to be friction between Jason and Batman though so if he does take a life in Gotham I am not going to be surprised.

----------


## EMarie

The flip flipping happens a lot. Wonder Woman publicly killed Medusa on tv and Bruce didn't say anything. She killed Max Lord on tv after he refused to release Superman and told her the only way he'd stop was is she killed him and Bruce acted like she was kill crazy. During the Batman/Superman Annual he choses Jason as his family member to fight by his side because he's dealt with aliens and can make the "hard choices." They still argued about it on the mission but that was why Bruce invited him.

Bruce simply changes what the bar for what's unacceptable from writer to writer.

I'm wondering if that friction will bring out a bigger family feud.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The flip flipping happens a lot. Wonder Woman publicly killed Medusa on tv and Bruce didn't say anything. She killed Max Lord on tv after he refused to release Superman and told her the only way he'd stop was is she killed him and Bruce acted like she was kill crazy. During the Batman/Superman Annual he choses Jason as his family member to fight by his side because he's dealt with aliens and can make the "hard choices." They still argued about it on the mission but that was why Bruce invited him.
> 
> Bruce simply changes what the bar for what's unacceptable from writer to writer.
> 
> I'm wondering if that friction will bring out a bigger family feud.


I say it's time DC allowed the writers to go back to using the  Multiverse to explain these out character moments because this is supposed to be one single universe and flip-flopping makes it hard to consider these characters the exact same ones from this single Earth.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I interpreted the conclusion to the first arc of rhato as Bruce finally _trusting_ Jason to make the hard decisions, and trusting him with the responsibility of taking _lethal_ measures when need be, as long as he respects the boundaries of Gotham, which is Bruces domain.
> 
> What did you guys read it as?


Yeah, that's pretty much how I interpreted that as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal is selling A4 sketches he did on his free time. Is a pretty eclectic selection but there's one Red Hood piece available. If anyone is interested, contact him through his e-mail (available on the linked tweet)

https://twitter.com/DenisMedri/statu...12786316812288

----------


## Aioros22

> Hey, what do you guys think was meant to be established status quo between Bruce and Jason at the end of rhato rebirth #6? Ever since the latest TEC drama there seems to be varying opinions about Jasons willingness to kill and what Bruce would allow. (Though I should mention it was only after Lobdells interview I was able to make a more finalized conclusion)
> 
> Considering the factors that; 
> 
> Bruce can and has worked alongside heroes/cops who do kill if need be, so there is already leeway to be had there and despite how some interpret it, he is not arrogant enough to assume his sense of justice is the only absolute.
> 
> That Jason has made it clear that his sense of justice is no longer warped with enacting revenge of any sort, or disrespecting Bruces legacy by way of leading his own crusade within Gotham.
> 
> And considering the narrative, the fact that the entire arc begins with Jason feeling upset that Bruce assumed the worst of him (during the assassination ploy) and didn't TRUST him, leading to Bruce allowing him to work in Gotham only if he respects his non lethal rules, to which Jason follows. Leading the arc to end with both a sense of trust and respect gained between the two and Bruce telling Jason that he is fine with him 'not being batman' and that 'maybe we could do with a few outlaws'. 
> ...


I see it as Bruce aknowledging the maturity Jason has paved in since the reboot started. The moment Loedbell changed Jason being trained solely under the auspicious League and was instead handled to Ducra, the whole vengeance theme shifted. Under The Hood still happens but as Ducra says, together with the taint was the possibility of becoming better than he was, to overcome the hurt and not be dominated by it. 

Jason, despite still having a fierce code of conduct regarding his crusade (whether he kills or not will depend on the situation and even if he doesn`t, he still does things the way Batman and the others would never do - like stealing enterprises) doesn`t steer away from the same goal. The goal is the same, this is the major thing! The method isn`t but what separates this Jason with the former and be able to wield that trust is that this Jason is simply more well adjusted and able to recognize where he was wasting his pain and energy. This Jason is less blind about himself and his pain. He`s more honest about himself. 

Bruce trusts Jason, no doubt. It may be hipocritical not trusting others the _same_ way but the others *didn`*t led the life and experiences Jason got. He knows it better than the others and so, he can be trusted more with that sort of power. Someone like Damian or Tim (supported by how their Futures selves tend to go..) will likely succumb to that sort of deal with the Devil whereas Jason can handle it and remain somewhat recognizable. This last line to me is what seals the deal. He can come back because he`s done it before. 

Lastly, I think the fact Jason does not tend to be a part of any faction or groupie inside the extended cast makes him more reliable as well. He has equally proven (to Roy for instances) or even before with Scarlet that he doesnt tend to drag people he either cares about or respects down with him. If he goes over the edge he tends to act lone wolf. 

Thats a pretty big sense of responsability that Batman can only appreciate even if It means Jason on his own tends to be more self destructive.

----------


## G-Potion

> Lastly, I think the fact Jason does not tend to be a part of any faction or groupie inside the extended cast makes him more reliable as well. He has equally proven (to Roy for instances) or even before with Scarlet that he doesnt tend to drag people he either cares about or respects down with him. If he goes over the edge he tends to act lone wolf. 
> 
> Thats a pretty big sense of responsability that Batman can only appreciate even if It means Jason on his own tends to be more self destructive.


I like this bit of analysis! If his crusade gets to a certain point, will he drag Bizarro and Artemis down with him? I like that Lobdell is very aware of this aspect of Jason to have Croc bring it up in the first place.

The bit about Jason being more self destructive alone is pretty true, as well as well-explored in fanfics as well.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah, he wouldn't, he would find a convenient excuse to leave their life and make his nothing but his code. 

Similarly with Futures End and Rebirth launch. Jason and Bruce have that in common, they see nothing beyond the mission when going the deep end.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm not sure Lobdell would get "dark" versions of other big name characters with Creeper being brought in. Sure he's not officially a member yet but I don't think he's going away especially with the history he seems to have with Artemis. I'd honestly see Lobdell leaning more towards misfits that don't really appear to fit into other books than expanding on the mirrored versions of the JL.
> 
> But if he did Godspeed (Flash), Dolphin (Aquaman), Variant ?(Cyborg) and I don't know who would fill the GL spot. I can't see any of them working with Jason in charge.


The only Green Lantern that would have suited the Outlaws is Jack T. Chance an alien from Garnet a planet where crime is the norm and Green Lanterns have failed to enforce the law. The last Green Lantern who died there sent his ring to find a suitable replacement on Garnet and it found Chance who was more willing to take extreme measures which included using firearms and killing. That Guardians called him in for trained in following protocol but he refused and argued against it because their methods failed to produce results on Garnet so they let keep his position and limited his authority to Garnet as a compromise. Unfortunately Jack T. Chance is dead.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Nice choices, I didn't think of Godspeed but with his sort of path for redemption he could work quite well, and whilst I knew about Dolphin, I wasn't quite sure about her moral compass, is she a kinda 'grey' character? I know she was in the older Aquaman comics but just based on the recent ones she seems to be a mute girl that wants to help Arthur, is she necessarily 'dark' in some way? And considering the recent push for Cyborg as a more mature JL member rather than a Titans member I don't see him being allowed on this team, even he seems a bit too close to the 'main party'.


The one who should be suitable for the Outlaws is Aquaman's half-brother Ocean Master.

----------


## G-Potion

So many good art in one day.

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://napalmarts.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

> The only Green Lantern that would have suited the Outlaws is Jack T. Chance an alien from Garnet a planet where crime is the norm and Green Lanterns have failed to enforce the law. The last Green Lantern who died there sent his ring to find a suitable replacement on Garnet and it found Chance who was more willing to take extreme measures which included using firearms and killing. That Guardians called him in for trained in following protocol but he refused and argued against it because their methods failed to produce results on Garnet so they let keep his position and limited his authority to Garnet as a compromise. Unfortunately Jack T. Chance is dead.


Just FYI but the Creeper can be dark. Read his 1997 series to go there, if you dare  :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Just FYI but the Creeper can be dark. Read his 1997 series to go there, if you dare


I just read Green Lantern Quarterly which featured Chance he's crude but fun and ironically giving him the ring was one of the smartest things the Guardians ever did. I'll think about it.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

https://k-axani.tumblr.com/

----------


## The Dying Detective

> 


So much for no killing eh? Batman even used guns back then.

----------


## magpieM

> So many good art in one day.
> 
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


This is so cute!!!

----------


## G-Potion

CUTE!!

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## Aioros22

We might find out something about Jason in the White Knight verse next issue in with how this one ends. Stay tuned.

----------


## RedBird

> We might find out something about Jason in the White Knight verse next issue in with how this one ends. Stay tuned.


Thanks for the reminder, I forgot this was out. I don't really see anything alluding to Jason in this issue, was there something I missed?

But regardless this series is still pretty damn interesting, more so from the fact that its quite unpredictable. I never really know which direction its gonna take, and honestly that feels pretty refreshing, especially for a mini story that _sounded_ like it was gonna be quite 'by the numbers' predictable from the concept alone.

----------


## Aioros22

Not especifically, just the likely natural course given the last page. Napier couldn't remember anything but... :Wink:

----------


## The Dying Detective

For those who are interested in it there is a Jason and Donna pairing fanfiction. It's short but it reads like it could have taken place in 52.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/775494

----------


## G-Potion

Nothing against the pairing, however imo that doesn't read like any version of Jason at all.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Nothing against the pairing, however imo that doesn't read like any version of Jason at all.


So it doesn't sound like the one from 52 huh?

----------


## G-Potion

> So it doesn't sound like the one from 52 huh?


God no. N52 Jason is awkward even when other people flirt with him. He puts on a confident front but he has self worth issue and honestly doesn't think anyone would be interested. Sadly fandom tends to write it the other way around just because of his bad boy image.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> God no. N52 Jason is awkward even when other people flirt with him. He puts on a confident front but he has self worth issue and honestly doesn't think anyone would be interested. Sadly fandom tends to write it the other way around just because of his bad boy image.


I was referring to the series Countdown to Final Crisis it had a large series of subplots one of them was Donna and Jason working with a Monitor to search for the Atom. And this fanfiction I posted here reads like it could have taken place during Countdown to Final Crisis. I thought the title of Countdown to Final Crisis  was 52 based on how it lasted 52 issues my bad.

----------


## G-Potion

> I was referring to the series Countdown to Final Crisis it had a large series of subplots one of them was Donna and Jason working with a Monitor to search for the Atom. And this fanfiction I posted here reads like it could have taken place during Countdown to Final Crisis. I thought the title of Countdown to Final Crisis  was 52 based on how it lasted 52 issues my bad.


But even Countdown version of Jason wouldn't act that way imo. I don't think he's ever been romantically/sexually forward in any version, and would care for it even less with his mental state pre N52. The charming suave flirt is more Dick than Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> But even Countdown version of Jason wouldn't act that way imo. I don't think he's ever been romantically/sexually forward in any version, and would care for it even less with his mental state pre N52. The charming suave flirt is more Dick than Jason.


Yeah but Dick has more manners towards women than the bad boy portrayals of Jason. I can tell that Jason in Countdown wasn't very forward in the romance area though he did focus a lot on Donna because they both died and came back to life. And it was clear that he liked her. Jason's honestly more focused on the mission than Batman is.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah but Dick has more manners towards women than the bad boy portrayals of Jason.


Yeah, I mean even Dick wouldn't be so bold. So you can imagine how I find Jason being written that way so far removed from how I view the character. 

I think the romance aspect of Countdown was next to non-existent. I can see that Jason likes Donna, but she was the one Titan that was nice to him when he was Robin. I can't see the love triangle nor romantic interest in it though. And Countdown team is one of the things I want to see being brought back into canon.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, I mean even Dick wouldn't be so bold. So you can imagine how I find Jason being written that way so far removed from how I view the character. 
> 
> I think the romance aspect of Countdown was next to non-existent. I can see that Jason likes Donna, but she was the one Titan that was nice to him when he was Robin. I can't see the love triangle nor romantic interest in it though. And Countdown team is one of the things I want to see being brought back into canon.


No Jason wouldn't be so bold but if I could redo that fanfiction I posted it would be done in a more awkward fashion where Jason tries to express his feelings towards Donna but he get interrupted by Kyle's arrival. Well there were other things that were more important during Countdown like the safety of the Multiverse. But it sure was fun to see Jason express jealousy towards Kyle and Donna's relationship. It was hinted in Dark Nights Metal that Final Crisis did happen but it's pace in continuity is messy.

----------


## EMarie

> God no. N52 Jason is awkward even when other people flirt with him. He puts on a confident front but he has self worth issue and honestly doesn't think anyone would be interested. Sadly fandom tends to write it the other way around just because of his bad boy image.


Thank you ! I get so tired of people thinking Jason embodies all the bad boy stereotypes. Even when Jason is trying to be flirty, like with Isabel, he's shocked that she's actually interested in him. 




> Yeah, I mean even Dick wouldn't be so bold. So you can imagine how I find Jason being written that way so far removed from how I view the character. 
> 
> I think the romance aspect of Countdown was next to non-existent. I can see that Jason likes Donna, but she was the one Titan that was nice to him when he was Robin. I can't see the love triangle nor romantic interest in it though. And Countdown team is one of the things I want to see being brought back into canon.


I think Dick reads attraction better than Jason does. Dick knows when a woman is interested in him and how to flirt. Jason isn't nearly as sure and seems to wait for the woman to make the first move. Take the annual as example, Dick knew Artemis had no real interest in him while Jason didn't seem to realize it until the end. Jason got jealous and Dick picked up on that wondering if Jason was with Artemis.

Countdown was infamously a mess, I know for sure one plot changed as Trickster was supposed to betray Piped Piper then they decided to just get rid of him instead. Promo art with clues hinted at that and Donna aligning herself with Jason due to them both wearing red. There were hints that Jason would be redeemed and take over the Red Robin mantle too. But none of that happened. I wouldn't want to see the same dynamics for the Countdown team, maybe show Jason as more mature and the third wheel that just wants to be away from the drama. Now that I think about it Kyle and Donna probably don't have a history now.

----------


## G-Potion

> I wouldn't want to see the same dynamics for the Countdown team, maybe show Jason as more mature and the third wheel that just wants to be away from the drama. Now that I think about it Kyle and Donna probably don't have a history now.


That's how I prefer it too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I haven't read that fanfic but Jason totally shows romantic interest and flirts with Donna through the entirety of Countdown. That is in fact one of the points of contention when Kyle joins them. Pre N52 Jason was in fact more prone to flirting, one of the reasons people latched to the idea he was bisexual.

----------


## Zaresh

> Thank you ! I get so tired of people thinking Jason embodies all the bad boy stereotypes. Even when Jason is trying to be flirty, like with Isabel, he's shocked that she's actually interested in him. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Dick reads attraction better than Jason does. Dick knows when a woman is interested in him and how to flirt. Jason isn't nearly as sure and seems to wait for the woman to make the first move. Take the annual as example, Dick knew Artemis had no real interest in him while Jason didn't seem to realize it until the end. Jason got jealous and Dick picked up on that wondering if Jason was with Artemis.
> 
> Countdown was infamously a mess, I know for sure one plot changed as Trickster was supposed to betray Piped Piper then they decided to just get rid of him instead. Promo art with clues hinted at that and Donna aligning herself with Jason due to them both wearing red. There were hints that Jason would be redeemed and take over the Red Robin mantle too. But none of that happened. I wouldn't want to see the same dynamics for the Countdown team, maybe show Jason as more mature and the third wheel that just wants to be away from the drama. Now that I think about it Kyle and Donna probably don't have a history now.


I may be wrong, but I think the part about Jason traveling across the multiverse is still canon, somehow.
And for what is worth, I also liked their part in Countdown. Probably the only thing I liked, honestly. But yeah, I can see they easily changed the direction of the plot at some point. Not hard to believe, at least.

I don't know about flirting. He clearly was "nice" to her and liked her. But it's hard to tell when Jason was flirting and when he was just playful. Still is.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't know about flirting. He clearly was "nice" to her and liked her. But it's hard to tell when Jason was flirting and when he was just playful. Still is.


Same. Hard to say if Jason is flirting _because he was romantically interested_ or not. Other instances that had Jason flirting, especially the ones that make people go "bisexual!" also read more like he did it because he likes in-battle quipping, to annoy or distract. I had a hard time imagining a pre-N52 Jason seriously thinking about having a romantic relationship with anyone.

----------


## G-Potion

@Zaresh: Reading Two Dead Birds at the moment! Glad you rec'd it because otherwise I would have missed a wonderful piece of fanfic.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zaresh

> @Zaresh: Reading Two Dead Birds at the moment! Glad you rec'd it because otherwise I would have missed a wonderful piece of fanfic.


Glad you like it  :Smile: .
I've subscribed to the author because of how much I liked this one, honestly. I'm hoping the next fic is about some fandom I know about.
I would recommend more, but either they have some (at times shameless) smut, or they're not really that good (or have the gay element that is not going to be the cup for some people). But if I ever cross my path with a fic as good as this one, I'll give you a notice.

----------


## G-Potion

> Glad you like it .
> I've subscribed to the author because of how much I liked this one, honestly. I'm hoping the next fic is about some fandom I know about.
> I would recommend more, but either they have some (at times shameless) smut, or they're not really that good (or have the gay element that is not going to be the cup for some people). But if I ever cross my path with a fic as good as this one, I'll give you a notice.


I haven't finished yet, but what I love so much aside from the character work is how much Jason _plans_, and still he mixes it up with impromptu flair as well. I love how crazy and elaborate his schemes are. Wish there were more of that in comics.

Throw your fic rec at me! I'm open for anything as long as it's plotty.   :Embarrassment:

----------


## Aioros22

> I haven't read that fanfic but Jason totally shows romantic interest and flirts with Donna through the entirety of Countdown. That is in fact one of the points of contention when Kyle joins them. Pre N52 Jason was in fact more prone to flirting, one of the reasons people latched to the idea he was bisexual.


Im actually on that side as well. He doesnt read or react to attraction as well or as surely as Dick does but lets be plain, he isent that shy. That Sass Fu bumps it up a notch. 

Jason seems the sort of guy who is more at ease with the flirting than he is dating, that's where his insecurities tend to shine more.

----------


## Zaresh

> I haven't finished yet, but what I love so much aside from the character work is how much Jason _plans_, and still he mixes it up with impromptu flair as well. I love how crazy and elaborate his schemes are. Wish there were more of that in comics.
> 
> Throw your fic rec at me! I'm open for anything as long as it's plotty.


So you want plot? I've got some plot then!

Keep in mind that, even if I liked them, I don't think they're as good as "Two Dead Birds". Really; that one surprised me. It's a list, but the numbers are not indicative; just the order in which I've remembered them now.

Ill Weeds Grow Apace  is about to end. It's an Arkhamverse, so there are notable differences. Here we have some over-competent Jason, to the point of being too competent to be credible. But it has plot and fluff and drama and mystery and suspense. It's part of a series of works that share the same verse, but it's the bone of it alongside with the 6th part (which I honestly didn't read yet but plan to). I also liked the totally not action-y and totally irrelevant but fun part 21, which takes the characters and sends them to their holidays and stuff happens. I hope they hook Jason with that WE scientist, but it's ok if nothing romantic happens anyways (not that I'm the romantic type to begin with).Jason Todd: The Not-So-Outlaw is another one that I liked. Actually, I think that I did see it being mentioned here in this thread like... six months or so ago. It has a weak start (for me) and maybe too much angst, but I honestly enjoyed it until the very end. Especially the part with Jason reforming his apartment and with the kids in the warehouse.The Many Deaths of Jason Todd was a surprise. I started reading it because the premise got me a bit interested. But ended finding a heavy plot story with a lot of rather oddly-seem elements. Keep in mind that it's totally Tim-centric (but it's a version of Tim that I would honestly read any day). Of course, Jason being the McGuffin, has a central role. It's heavy in the JayTim ship, and also has smut, true being told. Currently running a sequel that may be interesting once it stops being centered around the sequels of the first part in the characters (so much domestic stuff). Characters are a bit OoC, but whatever. It's fun.

Qué más, qué más...See how deep the bullet lies is settled in another Arkhamverse. It doesn't have what you could call a "plot", not in the way of a mystery, or a case, or an adventure. But it does have a thread and follows it across each part. It's the story of a damaged Bruce trying to help a damaged Jason; and I must add that it does have certain mysterious element surrounding Jason's story. A LOT of angst and suffering, but I liked it (more in the second and third part that in the first one). Not a lot of characters: Bruce, Jason, Selina later on and sometimes others here and there. It's pretty good, in my opinion.Casebook of Detective Timothy Drake is another series that I remember reading not long ago and liked. Remember how I said that I'm a sucker for Time-traveling plots? Well, I'm also a sucker for detective stories (started reading them at 7 or 8 and never stopped). And now I've to apologize because this one, again, is Tim-centric, but again, it's a version of Tim I liked. The selling point here is that Drake isn't a cape, but he knows them and is totally inside the bat family. Also shipping JayTim (but not smut as far as I recall) and so Jason has an important role but he's not the main; you've been warned.Here I'm going to risk all my buzzies and boppies and recommend you reading a sometimes really unsetting and often very smutty series just because I think it's good and also is plot heavy: Dreamscape is a series that mix The Sandman with Batman. It's heavy in sex, violence and all kind of lovecraftian crazy elements that you can name. It's totally JayDick in the ship department, and it's uncomfortable with all the sexual stuff with certain central characters. But it's a good read overall, even if not for everyone, and to be honest, has some amazing moments (like the one with the goat; hilarious). Its third part is currently approaching an interesting point plotwise, and it's being updated regularly.Jason Todd - Collector of Strays is an ongoing story that I read from time to time. It's not heavy in the plot department, but it has some here and there; enough to make the story move. We all ship Jason with Bud or the queen of Umec. Lot's of domestic stuff, lots of drama, Jason being a really competent detective, and some action here and there. Also a very palatable Oliver Queen to read, and a Bruce that I definitely don't like but it really doesn't matter.And my last rec, and another risky one because a)characters are OoC at times, b) it's a fantasy setting (but not the usual fantasy setting, to be honest; I think it's kind of Late Modern Ages-ish) and c) it's still starting and it has a slow updating pace. But I was surprisingly pleased by the first two chapters and I feel like the story can go good places in the end. The name of the fic is: The Earth Died Screaming. I can see that its end game is pairing Jason with this version of Kyle, but so far they've been only companions, kind of coworkers. Acquaintances? Maybe. Only time will see if the fic develops well or ends up being a fluf-feels-feast between the two characters.

And that's all I can recall right now. Some others are not really recommendable or have been already recommended by someone else in previous pages long ago, or I just cannot remember them after like an hour of wring my brains out. Hope you like any of them, and please don't kill me because you dislike any, either XD.

----------


## G-Potion

@Zaresh: Thanks!!! I've seen most of these scrolling the Archive. I share pretty much your opinions on them, but you have convinced me to pick some of them up again.

1/ I read Red, so for sure I'll be checking IWGA. That one is a monster and I have no energy at the moment so... waiting until it is done.

2/ Haven't finished it because as you said, the start wasn't strong, but whenever I popped in to check it looked much more interesting. I'll give it another go one day.

3/ I read this. I have very little interest in JayTim but I treat this as a character study on Jason from Tim's pov and it worked for me. Also this Tim is way better than the usual fandom portrayals. Sequel is not geling with me atm because of the domestic stuff. Maybe when it gets to the main meat.

4/ This one I like. Admitedly I liked it better pre-Selina, but still, pretty good. And I totally missed the last chapter as well as the newest fic in the series. Thanks for reminding me that it exists.  :Big Grin: 

5/ Haven't read this one. Maybe when I have more interest in Tim.

6/ This one I agree with you. I really like the dark elements and more importantly, the All-Caste element. This might be the only fic that does it. But, the JayDick was pretty weak, especially in the beginning. I almost dropped the fic because of it. The third part is where I start following regularly, and I like how detailed the author get with the magic and horror descriptions. The goat is the best thing.  :Big Grin: 

7/ Also one I've been meaning to pick up again. I didn't enjoy how Bruce/Alfred were written, and dropped it when it looks like Jason's about to adopt the kids (just not a fan of this direction). But it didn't go that way in the end, and it looks like the plan for the fic is much more ambitious. So yeah, picking this up.

8/ This one yeah, it's a slow read for me, and I'm always so sleepy whenever I'm reading it so I miss a lot of words. But the setting is good. I'm interested in Jason's backstory. Will see where this is going.

----------


## Jovos2099

someone said earier that they think ocean master would make a addition to the outlaws and i agree.

----------


## Zaresh

> @Zaresh: Thanks!!! I've seen most of these scrolling the Archive. I share pretty much your opinions on them, but you have convinced me to pick some of them up again.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 8/ This one yeah, it's a slow read for me, and I'm always so sleepy whenever I'm reading it so I miss a lot of words. But the setting is good. I'm interested in Jason's backstory. Will see where this is going.


Well, at least I made you remember to pick back up some of them! I'm glad that I got the mood right. Recommending stuff is often a matter of sheer luck. "8" is slow, yeah; a bit wordy, but it's a good read so far, nonetheless. You may want to try it again once it gains a few more chapters and it's busy (weekend) daytime. I'll keep you informed if it turns not-good.

----------


## Zaresh

> someone said earier that they think ocean master would make a addition to the outlaws and i agree.


I'm all aboard about adding Dex-Starr as the team mascot (honest to god and no joking). Which brings me to the question about what people think an Outlaw should be. For me, it has to be a C or D lister with a troubling past that makes them misfits but not villains, or an ex-villain that is looking for redemption, and has not an all-sunshine-and-light morals or ethics. Well, at least for me, they have to meet at least two of those criteria.

Yeah, I'm not sleeping tonight.

----------


## EMarie

There can be a lot of good choices for more Outlaws. At the moment I'm more interested in knowing why Bizarro picked Creeper of all people and who else he had in mind. His round table did have more chairs.

----------


## G-Potion

@Zaresh: OMG I just finished it. I'm _totally, totally_ in awe. Also lost for words. How even. I'll just... gonna read it again before formulating my thoughts but for sure, for sure this is the best fic I've read in a long time. It has the best climax and strongest finish as well. Aaaaa thank you so much Zaresh I can't believe I passed it up before!!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Jovos2099

i like orm as a  potential new outlaw because he could act in someways as a dark mirror of aquaman in some ways just like the main three.

----------


## Zaresh

> @Zaresh: OMG I just finished it. I'm _totally, totally_ in awe. Also lost for words. How even. I'll just... gonna read it again before formulating my thoughts but for sure, for sure this is the best fic I've read in a long time. It has the best climax and strongest finish as well. Aaaaa thank you so much Zaresh I can't believe I passed it up before!!!


This makes me happy. Really, helping making others this happy makes me smile like an idiot. Hope more people get to read and enjoy it. The author really did great. I wish I could write like this.

On another note, I'm liking the idea of adding Creeper to the team; as far as I know, he fits and sounds really interesting becuase his background story and the dynamics that he could bring to the table of the team.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

What do you think?




> * Flanderization: 
> ** While Jason's pre-Flashpoint self used guns as a means to an end, the New 52 and Rebirth version seems to be obsessed with them, flashing them out in nearly every fight, even when he's not fighting lethally. This is usually accompanied by him either narrating that he's using rubber bullets or taking nonlethal shots, or by loudly boasting about all the upgrades he's made to his guns.
> ** His grudge against Batman has devolved from opposition to his nonlethal philosophy on fighting crime, to desperately seeking out his approval. As of Rebirth, this attitude has extended towards Nightwing as well.


Is accurate tio RHATO rebirth?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Is accurate tio RHATO rebirth?


Well Jason's goal was to prove to Batman he needed him so it is accurate to an extent.

----------


## Aioros22

Just read the solicit from Batman: The Lask Knight On Earth from DC`s new Black Label Imprint

BATMAN: LAST KNIGHT ON EARTH from Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo, the creative team behind DARK KNIGHTS: METAL
Batman wakes up in a desert. He doesnt know what year it is or how The Jokers head is alive in a jar beside him, but its the beginning of a quest unlike anything the Dark Knight has undertaken before. In this strange future, villains are triumphant and society has liberated itself from the burden of ethical codes. Fighting to survive while in search of answers, Bruce Wayne uncovers the truth about his role in this new worldand begins the last Batman story ever told.

I recall some talk here about Snyder using Jason in some capacity and true enough the whole idea seems to be made to use a character like him.

----------


## Aioros22

https://www.pinterest.pt/Mattychan69/paintingdrawing/


http://carbonjen.tumblr.com/


https://www.weibo.com/1697508225/FvI...d1520628747307

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## Aioros22

https://pentapoda.tumblr.com/


Inkdaddyofcourse

----------


## Aioros22

http://nanihoosartblog.tumblr.com/


https://www.weibo.com/2743936930/Fv5...d1520629330378


http://zhi626.lofter.com/post/2838e4_1237ed46

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> https://www.pinterest.pt/Mattychan69/paintingdrawing/
> 
> 
> http://carbonjen.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> https://www.weibo.com/1697508225/FvI...d1520628747307


for a moment I though the one with the book was Roy.

----------


## Barbatos666

> Just read the solicit from Batman: The Lask Knight On Earth from DC`s new Black Label Imprint
> 
> BATMAN: LAST KNIGHT ON EARTH from Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo, the creative team behind DARK KNIGHTS: METAL
> Batman wakes up in a desert. He doesn’t know what year it is or how The Joker’s head is alive in a jar beside him, but it’s the beginning of a quest unlike anything the Dark Knight has undertaken before. In this strange future, villains are triumphant and society has liberated itself from the burden of ethical codes. Fighting to survive while in search of answers, Bruce Wayne uncovers the truth about his role in this new world—and begins the last Batman story ever told.
> 
> I recall some talk here about Snyder using Jason in some capacity and true enough the whole idea seems to be made to use a character like him.


He said he'd use old Wonder Woman, baby Superman and unless plans have changed Damian Wayne. This is the first I'm hearing about Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> He said he'd use old Wonder Woman, baby Superman and unless plans have changed Damian Wayne. This is the first I'm hearing about Jason.


His name has been rumored in some bounce and back discussions relating the label and this seems up the Alley. I think Snyder does mesntion hm in one intervie (was it him? Not sure now), hence why it was discussed here nothing too especfic or set in stone. 

I just read the first solicits yesterday, other titles are obviously coming. There`s another by Bermejo with a not so different enviorment.

----------


## G-Potion

> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Is accurate tio RHATO rebirth?


Where is this even from? 

First point, he still killed with guns in N52 and actually had quite a repertoire of weapons that he also used lethally. Later on while he refrains from killing, he still has his Red Hood reputation to keep up so can't very well ditch the guns nor let his enemies know he won't do it. And loudly boasting? With those special bullets against Bizarro, he was narrating so I don't know how loud he sounds to anyone. Against Queen Bee, to be honest, had he made the shot, it would have been a worse fate than death for her. It was a legit threat. 

So far in Rebirth he's used unarmed combat, taser, combat knife, hidden blade in his boot, a pen, and All Blades. Would I love to see more? Sure. Any of his weapons can be used lethally if he wants, so really, it doesn't matter whether he uses guns or not. Whether his other weapons could have done a better job or made more sense in the encounters that he's had is the question. 

Second point is it even flanderization? His grudge against Batman was never purely a clash of philosophy. It was personal as well. And he was wrong as much as he was right. As for Jason seeking approval now, yes he is, but to view it as a downgrade is to ignore how much love he has for Bruce. And this person is obviously ignoring the fact that his philosophy hasn't changed. He's only trying to find a middle ground that doesn't cost him his family. That's a whole lot of maturing Jason has shown.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Where is this even from? 
> 
> First point, he still killed with guns in N52 and actually had quite a repertoire of weapons that he also used lethally. Later on while he refrains from killing, he still has his Red Hood reputation to keep up so can't very well ditch the guns nor let his enemies know he won't do it. And loudly boasting? With those special bullets against Bizarro, he was narrating so I don't know how loud he sounds to anyone. Against Queen Bee, to be honest, had he made the shot, it would have been a worse fate than death for her. It was a legit threat. 
> 
> So far in Rebirth he's used unarmed combat, taser, combat knife, hidden blade in his boot, a pen, and All Blades. Would I love to see more? Sure. Any of his weapons can be used lethally if he wants, so really, it doesn't matter whether he uses guns or not. Whether his other weapons could have done a better job or made more sense in the encounters that he's had is the question. 
> 
> Second point is it even flanderization? His grudge against Batman was never purely a clash of philosophy. It was personal as well. And he was wrong as much as he was right. As for Jason seeking approval now, yes he is, but to view it as a downgrade is to ignore how much love he has for Bruce. And this person is obviously ignoring the fact that his philosophy hasn't changed. He's only trying to find a middle ground that doesn't cost him his family. That's a whole lot of maturing Jason has shown.


The analysis comes from TV Tropes and Idioms a wiki that tends say what they want in the  most unprofessional way possible without sounding too coarse. I read it too which allows me to have some knowledge Wikipedia tends to leave out.

----------


## G-Potion

This just adds to the list of RHATO things I've been seeing people rant about (mostly on twitter) without realizing how wrong their facts are.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> This just adds to the list of RHATO things I've been seeing people rant about (mostly on twitter) without realizing how wrong their facts are.


Still the TV Tropes isn't wrong with how the second volume of Red Hood and the Outlaws was more well received than the first one.

----------


## G-Potion

> Still the TV Tropes isn't wrong with how the second volume of Red Hood and the Outlaws was more well received than the first one.


That isn't saying much though.

----------


## G-Potion

Still hot in B&W.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That isn't saying much though.


No but even a broken cuckoo clock is right twice.

----------


## Zaresh

> Still hot in B&W.


Hot is an understatement. Damn fine artwork there. Soy sure has drawn some pretty one-pages. My favourite still is the one in Qurac, though.

----------


## Jovos2099

i think it would be cool if rebirth were to meet all the alt universe  jasons like the flashpoint priest pre crisis earth one Jason arkhamverse injustice gotham city garage bombshells etc just to have the jasons alone in a room together would be gold.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> No but even a broken cuckoo clock is right twice.


Keep in mind that TvTropes is like Wikipedia and is just a matter of making an account to edit its pages. I try to clear all the entries related to Jason but well, the misconceptions are way more spread.


Anyways, that page with Jason would make a sick print.

----------


## G-Potion

> Keep in mind that TvTropes is like Wikipedia and is just a matter of making an account to edit its pages. I try to clear all the entries related to Jason but well, the misconceptions are way more spread.
> 
> 
> Anyways, that page with Jason would make a sick print.


Oh so you've edited the part that you quoted as well?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Oh so you've edited the part that you quoted as well?


I removed it once but it was edited in again.

----------


## G-Potion

> I removed it once but it was edited in again.


Do they have discussions in there, just to make sure the edits are generally approved by all contributors?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Still hot in B&W.


Soy's art is just great no matter what. I hope both Soy and Gandini stick with this book for the long haul.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Do they have discussions in there, just to make sure the edits are generally approved by all contributors?


Once in a blue moon.

----------


## G-Potion

Well well well

*IS JASON TODD COMING TO DC’S TITANS?*

_Is he???_

----------


## G-Potion

> i think it would be cool if rebirth were to meet all the alt universe  jasons like the flashpoint priest pre crisis earth one Jason arkhamverse injustice gotham city garage bombshells etc just to have the jasons alone in a room together would be gold.


Yep I think he has a pretty diverse incarnations to make a meeting very interesting to say the least. I think Priest Jason would be the one that catches the others off guard the most.

----------


## Aioros22

Well Well Welll





Waiting for confirmations now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well well well
> 
> *IS JASON TODD COMING TO DC’S TITANS?*
> 
> _Is he???_


Interesting. I wasn't planning on watching this since I've very little interest in the Titans at this point but it certainly has my attention now. I just hope that its a more balanced portrayal and that the showrunners aren't planning to start up that "bad" and "failed" Robin nonsense again with this. The guy died trying to save his mother and that needs to be acknowledged as well other good aspects of the character as well as his faults.

----------


## G-Potion

> Interesting. I wasn't planning on watching this since I've very little interest in the Titans at this point but it certainly has my attention now. I just hope the showrunners aren't planning to start up that "bad" and "failed" Robin nonsense again with this.


Same. But I'm honestly surprised that we get a hint of Jason on this show before Young Justice, if there's gonna be one.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I'm surprised by that as well. I am still hopeful that Jason will reappear there as well but I guess we'll see. To be honest I'm looking forward to a new season of Young Justice far more then this Titans live action show.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Ehhhh, unless they bring Roy and Jason's friendship I have zero interest on seeing a Robin Jason on the Titans.

----------


## Zaresh

> Well well well
> 
> *IS JASON TODD COMING TO DCS TITANS?*
> 
> _Is he???_


Well... At least we can count with them acknowledging his extincence, being he in present presence or by the means of flashbacks. How much is going to be connected the show with the actual cinematographic material? Not at all, I'm guessing, but still... Because maybe they ended up liking the idea of that Robin costume being his...

----------


## The Dying Detective

Jason was the last character I ever expected to see appear in Titans but if then again he was a member in the past I wonder whether it will use his history with Titans from Post-Crisis? Maybe expand his relationship Donna Troy.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Jason was the last character I ever expected to see appear in Titans but if then again he was a member in the past I wonder whether it will use his history with Titans from Post-Crisis? Maybe expand his relationship Donna Troy.


That is something I have always wondered about.  If they would revisit that friendship.  Might make for an interesting story within the Outlaws book, maybe in the Titans.

----------


## EMarie

> Ehhhh, unless they bring Roy and Jason's friendship I have zero interest on seeing a Robin Jason on the Titans.


Really? As long as they portray Jason well that's the main thing I care about. Sure I'd love to see the friendship but I also want to see Dick and Jason being brothers.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is unlikely we would get to see Jason and Dick interact properly since we know Dick is Robin in the show.

In any case is a rumor with no real source to speak of so I wouldn't hold my breath.

EDIT:

Damn.

108. Red Hood and the Outlaws #19 (DC) - 20,744 [102]

----------


## Zaresh

Having Dick as Robin (he's going to be Robin, right? Not Nightwing) and that episode's tittle with Jaaon's actual name, unlike the other tittles, makes me wonder if they're going to present Jason pre-batman as a street kid.

Edit: or they could go White Knight route and make Jason the older and dead first "Robin" (or sidekick with other name. I don't see them giving Jay the honor to name his cape).

----------


## Aioros22

> Is unlikely we would get to see Jason and Dick interact properly since we know Dick is Robin in the show.
> 
> In any case is a rumor with no real source to speak of so I wouldn't hold my breath.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Damn.
> 
> 108. Red Hood and the Outlaws #19 (DC) - 20,744 [102]


If rumors are to be believe, Dick isn`t staying in the Robin gig forever.

----------


## Aioros22

I also stopped caring for the comic numbers along time ago. Pretty clear that the book and the creative team have the backing of Office to stay safe until they feel otherwise. If the quality was shit and Jason wasn`t bigger in other media, I`d worry but as it is, noworry. 

This is of course a double edge sword but I favor quality always..

----------


## Aioros22

> Jason was the last character I ever expected to see appear in Titans but if then again he was a member in the past I wonder whether it will use his history with Titans from Post-Crisis? Maybe expand his relationship Donna Troy.


If true I expect them to mesh Pre and Post crisis sensabilities. The street origin because it`s iconic and powerful but the closer bond between Dick and Jason. All bets would be for Dick to handle the Robin gig instead of Batman which always made more sense. 

Add up the foundations to the friendship with Roy or Donna and I`ll eat it up.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If true I expect them to mesh Pre and Post crisis sensabilities. The street origin because it`s iconic and powerful but the closer bond between Dick and Jason. All bets would be for Dick to handle the Robin gig instead of Batman which always made more sense. 
> 
> Add up the foundations to the friendship with Roy or Donna and I`ll eat it up.


I hope that it will be done well because Berlanti shows seem sub par. and why would Batman be Robin in Titans? And yeah a friendship between Roy or Donna would be good as long as there is no romantic relationship between Jason and Donna it seems Berlanti can't do those well.

----------


## Aioros22

I didn`t said Batman would be Robin in Titans, only that he`s usually the one bringing Jason in, whereas Pre Crisis it was more a Dick Grayson bond with Jason and him falling naturally in the role because of that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I didn`t said Batman would be Robin in Titans, only that he`s usually the one bringing Jason in, whereas Pre Crisis it was more a Dick Grayson bond with Jason and him falling naturally in the role because of that.


I see my mistake well if this series is going to centre on the Teen Titans I imagine Dick will be Jason's main target if they choose to adapt Under the Hood for the show.

----------


## Badou

Given that Dick is still going by Robin in the show I think they are going to show Jason as the next Robin once Dick picks up the Nightwing identity. So mabe that happens near the end of the first season if anything. So Jason isn't going to be Red Hood in the show if he shows up as when the show starts Dick isn't even Nightwing yet from the looks of it. 

But they seem to just be throwing everything at this Titans show. It feels like it might be a little bit of a mess.

----------


## G-Potion

Anyway, we have report from a different site. This one doesn't bother with a 'maybe'.

https://heroichollywood.com/dc-live-...ns-jason-todd/

----------


## Aahz

> Ehhhh, unless they bring Roy and Jason's friendship I have zero interest on seeing a Robin Jason on the Titans.


Since the have allready Roy in Arrow, I doubt that he will appear in titans.

----------


## G-Potion

> I see my mistake well if this series is going to centre on the Teen Titans I imagine Dick will be Jason's main target if they choose to adapt Under the Hood for the show.


As much as I want Jason anywhere I can have him, I'd be so mad if UTRH is adapted in this manner because it makes no sense to replace Batman with Dick as Jason's target and cheapens every meaningful thing about the original.

----------


## RedBird

Hey guys, do you recall this? (I got it from the Damian trad)

http://capelesscrusader.org/planet-c...oke-vs-batman/

_CP: Well, it was supposed to be Batman vs Deathstroke, but because it’s happening sequentially in the Deathstroke series, for trademark reasons they have to call it Deathstroke vs Batman. It’s a custody battle. Batman becomes aware, somebody leaves some paperwork lying around that shows DNA test results proving that Slade Wilson is the father of Damian Wayne. So, Batman wants to get to the bottom of this, obviously. 

He goes after Deathstroke to find out what’s up with this, and there’s a whole bit of business about that. But somebody has put the two of them on a collision course over the paternity of Damian. Because if you go back to the Grant Morrison run, there’s a great scene where Jason Todd is venting to Alfred about this new kid, because he’s jealous of Damian. And he says, well, obviously Bruce took a paternity test. And Alfred never confirms or denies whether he took the test._ 



Its an excerpt from an interview with Priest
I don't quite remember this panel myself  :Confused: 

Granted it may have been me trying to block out Morrisons Jason from my mind


*EDIT: Cheers for the confirmation that this was just a mix up by the way. I thought I was going cooky thinking to myself, "I'm sure that was Tim". XD*

----------


## EMarie

> Hey guys, do you recall this? (I got it from the Damian trad)
> 
> http://capelesscrusader.org/planet-c...oke-vs-batman/
> 
> _CP: Well, it was supposed to be Batman vs Deathstroke, but because it’s happening sequentially in the Deathstroke series, for trademark reasons they have to call it Deathstroke vs Batman. It’s a custody battle. Batman becomes aware, somebody leaves some paperwork lying around that shows DNA test results proving that Slade Wilson is the father of Damian Wayne. So, Batman wants to get to the bottom of this, obviously. 
> 
> He goes after Deathstroke to find out what’s up with this, and there’s a whole bit of business about that. But somebody has put the two of them on a collision course over the paternity of Damian. Because if you go back to the Grant Morrison run, there’s a great scene where Jason Todd is venting to Alfred about this new kid, because he’s jealous of Damian. And he says, well, obviously Bruce took a paternity test. And Alfred never confirms or denies whether he took the test._ 
> 
> 
> ...


I think he's confusing Jason with Tim. Because Tim was the first one to meet Damian and the only one I recall talking about a DNA test.

----------


## RedBird

> I think he's confusing Jason with Tim. Because Tim was the first one to meet Damian and the only one I recall talking about a DNA test.


Yeah thats what I suspected too, I only ever recall Tim asking about the parentage. Hell I'm pretty sure Jason wasn't even around the family then.

I hope that was some kind of one off mistake whilst making his point to the interviewer, and not something thats gonna come up in the actual comic as some kind of flashback. I'm good with Jason not accidentally inheriting Tims jealous middle child syndrome thanks. :P

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Anyway, we have report from a different site. This one doesn't bother with a 'maybe'.
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/dc-live-...ns-jason-todd/


No source either.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think he's confusing Jason with Tim. Because Tim was the first one to meet Damian and the only one I recall talking about a DNA test.


This only proves that Priest has Jason Todd flowing in his mind.
_Tim who?
_

----------


## G-Potion

> I think he's confusing Jason with Tim. Because Tim was the first one to meet Damian and the only one I recall talking about a DNA test.


Oh god Priest pls don't screw Jason up because of this.

----------


## G-Potion

> No source either.


Tip originally came from this guy. It's not official, but it's not someone random either.

----------


## G-Potion

Some follow-up


*IS CURRAN WALTERS PLAYING JASON TODD ON TITANS?*

Just for fun, do you guys think he has the Jason look?

----------


## RedBird

> Some follow-up
> 
> 
> *IS CURRAN WALTERS PLAYING JASON TODD ON TITANS?*
> 
> Just for fun, do you guys think he has the Jason look?


NOPE. I'm probably gonna sound cruel right now but.

I mean, he looks weird to me, like facially distorted weird. In the same vein as actors like Benedict Cumberbatch or Adam Driver. Just, really weird lookin.


I think I would have preferred Shia Labeouf XD

----------


## G-Potion

I thought the same when I watched the interviews he has on YT. But his instagram is honestly not bad at all.

----------


## RedBird

> I thought the same when I watched the interviews he has on YT. But his instagram is honestly not bad at all.


Don't get wrong, he actually has pretty facial features, (eg pouty lips, arched brows, small nose etc) maybe too pretty, but his head structure is so strange. 

Regardless he doesn't really look like Jason to me.

----------


## Zaresh

> Some follow-up
> 
> 
> *IS CURRAN WALTERS PLAYING JASON TODD ON TITANS?*
> 
> Just for fun, do you guys think he has the Jason look?


No, please.
I don't mean to offense, but just nope.
(Damn, I feel like a really bad person now)

----------


## Zaresh

> Don't get wrong, he actually has a pretty face, maybe too pretty, but his head structure is so strange. 
> 
> Regardless he doesn't really look like Jason to me.


Not to sound rude and cruel either, but I think its because he has lips that are really big and full and a forehead too big and high and in a sort of inverted trapezoid shape that make his overall face shape look wider in the upper half than in the lower half. But my problem, funny enough, despite not liking his face because he's not my cup of tea, is that he is too thin. He has no muscle weight, in a way that not even putting on some would make him gain; he's thin, really slim. And I don't see any version of Jason being like that, not even as a teen (and I don't mean that he should be a brick either).

Edit: nevermind, I've just entered his insta. I stand corrected. The guy can put on weight, definitely. It's just a pic, but it's enough.

Edit2: that said, maybe he's good and can pull a good Jason. I've never seen his work so who knows. Sure I thought Alfie Allen couldn't do a good Theon and look at him; he was awesome, one of the best of the young cast of Game of Thrones.

Edit3: in any case, I don't know. Judging by that page, he could be doing nothing to do with the show, even.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> As much as I want Jason anywhere I can have him, I'd be so mad if UTRH is adapted in this manner because it makes no sense to replace Batman with Dick as Jason's target and cheapens every meaningful thing about the original.


Well the only way it would work is if they included Batman though like the Supergirl show which included Superman they might dim Batman in favour of Dick if they so choose it. Which doesn't sound any bettter obviously.

----------


## Barbatos666

Who needs a helmet with that head? just paint it red and call him Red Head.

----------


## EMarie

> This only proves that Priest has Jason Todd flowing in his mind.
> _Tim who?
> _


That's not great if he can't get him right. What if he just thinks of Jason as the jealous Robin then writes him like he's petty and still holding grudges?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Hey guys, do you recall this? (I got it from the Damian trad)
> 
> http://capelesscrusader.org/planet-c...oke-vs-batman/
> 
> _CP: Well, it was supposed to be Batman vs Deathstroke, but because it’s happening sequentially in the Deathstroke series, for trademark reasons they have to call it Deathstroke vs Batman. It’s a custody battle. Batman becomes aware, somebody leaves some paperwork lying around that shows DNA test results proving that Slade Wilson is the father of Damian Wayne. So, Batman wants to get to the bottom of this, obviously. 
> 
> He goes after Deathstroke to find out what’s up with this, and there’s a whole bit of business about that. But somebody has put the two of them on a collision course over the paternity of Damian. Because if you go back to the Grant Morrison run, there’s a great scene where Jason Todd is venting to Alfred about this new kid, because he’s jealous of Damian. And he says, well, obviously Bruce took a paternity test. And Alfred never confirms or denies whether he took the test._ 
> 
> 
> ...


Priest just screwed up now Tim Drake fans are going to be even more angry that an element of Tim's Post-Crisis history was given to Jason. Though Jason's visit to Haley's Circus was reasonable since any Tom, Dick, and Harry can steal or buy tickets to a circus show. There's nothing in Jason's past that says he should not be able to go see the Flying Grayson's performance. I hope someone in the office tells him that he has the wrong Robin.

----------


## G-Potion

> Priest just screwed up now Tim Drake fans are going to be even more angry that an element of Tim's Post-Crisis history was given to Jason. Though Jason's visit to Haley's Circus was reasonable since any Tom, Dick, and Harry can steal or buy tickets to a circus show.


That's the case then Tim fans won't be the only ones who get angry.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's the case then Tim fans won't be the only ones who get angry.


Yes Jason fans are also going to be angry I just hope someone does correct Priest before it's too late that is if the story hasn't been finished and printed already. Admittedly I like Jason and Damian but I also like Tim would DC to maintain some integrity to him as well.

----------


## EMarie

Didn't he get fans mad back during his Titans/TT crossover? Damian fans hated how he backtracked, Wally fans were livid over how he was treated and there was some talk about whether or not to be aware of canon.

----------


## RedBird

> Priest just screwed up now Tim Drake fans are going to be even more angry that an element of Tim's Post-Crisis history was given to Jason. *Though Jason's visit to Haley's Circus was reasonable since any Tom, Dick, and Harry can steal or buy tickets to a circus show. there's nothing in Jason's past that says he should be able to go see the Flying Grayson's performance.*


Sorry I'm confused, is there a specific continuity we're going by? I was under the presumption that the Flying Graysons were a part of Haleys circus? 

So it was reasonable that Jason could go to Haleys circus but not see the headlining show of the Flying Graysons?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Didn't he get fans mad back during his Titans/TT crossover? Damian fans hated how he backtracked, Wally fans were livid over how he was treated and there was some talk about whether or not to be aware of canon.


I believe he did what is up with Priest because it sounds like he's been blatantly ignoring the work done by his colleagues. But I hope this interview is him making a mistake.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sorry I'm confused, is there a specific continuity we're going by? I was under the presumption that the Flying Graysons were a part of Haleys circus? 
> 
> So it was reasonable that Jason could go to Haleys circus but not see the headlining show of the Flying Graysons?


It was a typo. And yes the Flying Graysons are part of Haley's Circus I was just referring to the Flying Grayson's show itself in a different sentence.

----------


## G-Potion

Going to the circus to watch can't be a unique moment to any character. It was a big thing in Gotham, why shouldn't Jason go there? Also it's not like he personally met Dick there. He went as a spectator. Nothing's out of the ordinary for a Gothamite.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Going to the circus to watch can't be a unique moment for any character. It was a big thing in Gotham, why shouldn't Jason go there? Also it's not like he personally met Dick there. He went as a spectator. Nothing's out of the ordinary for a Gothamite.


It shouldn't and Lobdell was smart to craft a perfectly reasonable circumstance for Jason to admire Dick that didn't under cut Tim's own reason's and circumstances. But you know how fans can be. It also helped to expand on Jason's past other than being a kid who grew up in a bad neighbourhood and a dysfunctional household. But quite frankly pretty much everyone admires Dick even Superman.

----------


## RedBird

> It was a typo. And yes the Flying Graysons are part of Haley's Circus I was just referring to the Flying Grayson's show itself in a different sentence.


Ah no worries.

Continuity shifts so often, I thought I missed out on some major change to the Graysons and their affiliation with Haleys.




> Going to the circus to watch can't be a unique moment to any character. It was a big thing in Gotham, why shouldn't Jason go there? Also it's not like he personally met Dick there. He went as a spectator. Nothing's out of the ordinary for a Gothamite.


Add to that he wasn't there to witness the death of the Graysons either, just another one of their daily/nightly performances.

----------


## EMarie

> Going to the circus to watch can't be a unique moment to any character. It was a big thing in Gotham, why shouldn't Jason go there? Also it's not like he personally met Dick there. He went as a spectator. Nothing's out of the ordinary for a Gothamite.


I don't get it either. Jason didn't witness the Grayson murders, meet the Flying Graysons backstage or use the experience as proof Dick was Robin. The situations are different. It's a nod to Jason's pre-Crisis origin for one thing. It sheds some much needed light on Willis since it's the first time we've seen him do something nice for his kid. It tells us a lot about Jason since he never told anyone about it and highlights the differences between Dick and him.

----------


## G-Potion

Apparently, Curran Walters was spotted on set way earlier. r/Titans say that this user has been going to the set everyday. They also confirmed in another recent tweet that it's Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Ah no worries.
> 
> Continuity shifts so often, I thought I missed out on some major change to the Graysons and their affiliation with Haleys.


Thanks admittedly if continuity was going to shift so often I kind of wish they allowed the writers a more flexible approach to continuity.

----------


## G-Potion

Also,

----------


## Barbatos666

> Apparently, Curran Walters was spotted on set way earlier. r/Titans say that this user has been going to the set everyday. They also confirmed in another recent tweet that it's Jason.


I dont understand, is this in favor of the actor playing the part or against it?

----------


## Barbatos666

> I don't get it either. Jason didn't witness the Grayson murders, meet the Flying Graysons backstage or use the experience as proof Dick was Robin. The situations are different. It's a nod to Jason's pre-Crisis origin for one thing. It sheds some much needed light on Willis since it's the first time we've seen him do something nice for his kid. It tells us a lot about Jason since he never told anyone about it and highlights the differences between Dick and him.


In this day and age where Robins are becoming so interchangeable every little bit that differentiates them counts I guess. Especially for Tim for whom the fanboy angle is central to his character but that's how I see it.

----------


## Zaresh

> Also,


Well... Maybe they're going to skip all his robin story.
Damn. I don't like to think about that.

----------


## Aahz

It was Tim

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It was Tim


From what I inferred from that page Bruce did go through with the paternity test is Priest retconning it as well?

----------


## Aahz

> Some follow-up
> 
> 
> *IS CURRAN WALTERS PLAYING JASON TODD ON TITANS?*
> 
> Just for fun, do you guys think he has the Jason look?


Maybe as Robin (not much information about him online), but not as Red Hood imo.

Btw. the actor is appearently allready 20, looks like "Dawson Casting" for me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That's not great if he can't get him right. What if he just thinks of Jason as the jealous Robin then writes him like he's petty and still holding grudges?


He couldn't even manage to get Damian right during Lazarus Contract and now I see how that happened. I wouldn't be surprised if he did write Jason that way.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Didn't he get fans mad back during his Titans/TT crossover? Damian fans hated how he backtracked, Wally fans were livid over how he was treated and there was some talk about whether or not to be aware of canon.


Yes, he did and that's exactly why I don't really want him anywhere near Jason or any of the Bat characters for that matter. He clearly doesn't do the necessary research nor just ignores what other writers are doing with the characters.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes, he did and that's exactly why I don't really want him anywhere near Jason or any of the Bat characters for that matter. He clearly doesn't do the necessary research nor just ignores what other writers are doing with the characters.


Yet Priest wrote Batman back then or so I heard. But was it even good?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yet Priest wrote Batman back then or so I heard. But was it even good?


I've no idea. After that nonsense in Lazarus Contract I haven't bothered reading anything Priest has written.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yes it was, better depiction than King and Tyniin put together.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yes it was, better depiction than King and Tyniin put together.


I wonder whether what he did with Damian shows that he isn't invested in writing the non-classic characters?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I've no idea. After that nonsense in Lazarus Contract I haven't bothered reading anything Priest has written.


He did actually he filled in for two issues.

----------


## EMarie

> I wonder whether what he did with Damian shows that he isn't invested in writing the non-classic characters?


He talked about the event listing some reasons for his writing.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He talked about the event listing some reasons for his writing.


His reasons are understandable since you can't keep writing a character not find some way to make them flawed to keep them engaging. And he does give some insight to how difficult the job really is when there are fans with the ferocity of an attack dog Unfortunately there were some fallacies with what Priest did. Giving Wally West I a heart problem does not make sense when the Speedforce can heal a user. And if he showed that Damian was reluctant to do as he did then it would have been more redeeming or if push comes to shove just have someone confront Damian over this and build a new story from that where Damian can show some growth.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He did actually he filled in for two issues.


Like I said I don't really care if he did. I wasn't happy with his handling of Damian nor the resulting situation with Wally so I've simply decided to avoid the rest of his work. Priest isn't the first writer that's rubbed me the wrong way and he's likely not the last either.

----------


## Aahz

> Yet Priest wrote Batman back then or so I heard. But was it even good?


He wrote two issues of Batman (directly the ones after Stralin's run ended) and Btaman Annual #13. The Annual actually features Jason.

The problem with Jason and resaerch is genral, that if the writers only read the big stories (like Morrisons Run) they only read very crappy appearences of him.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Like I said I don't really care if he did. I wasn't happy with his handling of Damian nor the resulting situation with Wally so I've simply decided to avoid the rest of his work. Priest isn't the first writer that's rubbed me the wrong way and he's likely not the last either.


Well according to his website he did all that because he wants to try to make things interesting by not keeping things too perfect. The outrage he received over Damian and Wally West I gave him that fans don't want their favourite characters to struggle internally.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He wrote two issues of Batman (directly the ones after Starlin's run ended) and Batman Annual #13. The Annual actually features Jason.
> 
> The problem with Jason and resaerch is genral, that if the writers only read the big stories (like Morrisons Run) they only read very crappy appearances of him.


Well that's not fair and awkward it's was clear from some old fan letters I found people did like Jason and it sounds like the majority may or may not ignore anything positive the writers did with Jason during his tenure as Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's not great if he can't get him right. What if he just thinks of Jason as the jealous Robin then writes him like he's petty and still holding grudges?


My dark humor knows no bounds. 

It`s a valid concern of course but I think someone might have already pointed out it was Tim who said the line to Damian by now if not himself. I do like the prospect of Priest writting Jason in some capaciy. He`s good with complex characters given the homework.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well according to his website he did all that because he wants to try to make things interesting by not keeping things too perfect. The outrage he received over Damian and Wally West I gave him that fans don't want their favourite characters to struggle internally.


I don't mind when writers shake things up to make it interesting but I do mind when the shake up feels forced or doesn't make logical sense and that is what I felt happened in this case. The Speed Force would have healed the damage to Wally's heart and my problem with Damian's involvement stems from what I see as Priest regressing the character back a few years for the sake of the story. Writer's have a bad habit of doing that with Damian and throwing out the character growth he's had over the years in the process just so they can have him be more edgy. Personally I'm a bit sick of it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My dark humor knows no bounds. 
> 
> It`s a valid concern of course but I think someone might have already pointed out it was Tim who said the line to Damian by now if not himself. I do like the prospect of Priest writting Jason in some capaciy. He`s good with complex characters given the homework.


He said on his website that he doesn't like Dick because he wasn't very complex because there just wasn't many flaws to him but still the anger Tim felt towards Batman keeping secrets from him and being jealous technically gave Tim the complexity Priest claimed that Dick lacks. So why not stick to history and do it that way? Or is because after how badly received the heart problem Wally West I got he doesn't want to go anywhere near characters who he considers white bread characters?

----------


## Aioros22

He can use Tim for sure but it might be that he prefers Jason because of what you just said. He`s not a white bread character or safe. 

I get some fans being concerned given what he did to Wally but Jason isn`t Wally. That`s all the answer I can give. His record with characters like Panther and Slade make me water my mouth with what he could do with Jay because Priest does have the good handle when it comes to ethics and do(a)uble morality. Then again, he`s not perfect, nobody is but if I could chose, I rather he tried it to see what could happen. 

If it is great, swesome if it is a miss, too bad.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't mind when writers shake things up to make it interesting but I do mind when the shake up feels forced or doesn't make logical sense and that is what I felt happened in this case. The Speed Force would have healed the damage to Wally's heart and my problem with Damian's involvement stems from what I see as Priest regressing the character back a few years for the sake of the story. Writer's have a bad habit of doing that with Damian and throwing out the character growth he's had over the years in the process just so they can have him be more edgy. Personally I'm a bit sick of it.


I can see where you're going with this and I know it should too but I'm not sure that's how he views the Speedforce but maybe he thinks it shouldn't function like Wolverine's healing factor which is so powerful to the point of lacking in realism. And Priest seems to opt for a more realistic way of writing stories these days. As for Damian he might see Damian as the type of character with a willingness to take extreme steps because that's what Batman is known for at times and Damian is in a sense a mini-Batman. And also according to his blog where he acknowledge the growth Damian went through well he says after they got rid of the flaws then what's next?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He can use Tim for sure but it might be that he prefers Jason because of what you just said. He`s not a white bread character or safe. 
> 
> I get some fans being concerned given what he did to Wally but Jason isn`t Wally. That`s all the answer I can give. His record with characters like Panther and Slade make me water my mouth with what he could do with Jay because Priest does have the good handle when it comes to ethics and do(a)uble morality. Then again, he`s not perfect, nobody is but if I could chose, I rather he tried it to see what could happen. 
> 
> If it is great, awesome if it is a miss, too bad.


Well at that point Tim was growing past his old white bread characterisation though I can't imagine fans being too happy that Tim had fallen into jealousy back then because he was a fun personified, everyman character and that's what made him enduring to fans. But there's no reason he can't be fun and complex all at the same time. Well i do hope he does do Jason justice if he doesn't want to go anywhere near TIm after Wally West I. THough he's currently writing Superman a character by a certain standard might not be very complex.

----------


## EMarie

Do we even know if he's writing Jason or Tim? 

On Lazarus Contract, I thought it was mostly a mess regardless of who was writing. I agree with some of the things Priest says but not all. I fail to see why Wally even needed a heart problem if he already has all this baggage of his life being a mess. I could go on for awhile what I didn't like about Damian. Characters can mature without losing their identity and backpedaling just makes them boring to me because there is no growth. That's why I love Jason when he's written by Lobdell. You can see the growth from the first RHATO to the current series. It makes the way he's written in other books all the more grating.

----------


## Zaresh

> Do we even know if he's writing Jason or Tim? 
> 
> On Lazarus Contract, I thought it was mostly a mess regardless of who was writing. I agree with some of the things Priest says but not all. I fail to see why Wally even needed a heart problem if he already has all this baggage of his life being a mess. I could go on for awhile what I didn't like about Damian. Characters can mature without losing their identity and backpedaling just makes them boring to me because there is no growth. That's why I love Jason when he's written by Lobdell. You can see the growth from the first RHATO to the current series. It makes the way he's written in other books all the more grating.


I think he was pointing that scene more because, for him, apparently, was a neutral statement, rather than because he was planning on using Jason (well, we now know it was Tim) as a character for his story. Now that I see that page, I agree, it wasn't neutral at all; Alfred kind of confirmed that Bruce did the paternity test and probably was aware of the result.

My worst offender in Priest's part from the Lazarus Contract, more than puting Wally into that weak heart thing (that probably was something he carried from from Abnett, to be honest; I can easily see them having that idea for Wally and asking Priest to come with a reason for Wally to be stuck into his current status), how he depicted Wally as a helpless and kind of childish adult when Slade got his powers and outrun and beat him. I love Wally, and that was way, way OoC for cheap drama alone (the idea about go find Joseph made sense and was nice, though). And sure it hurt Damian's development as a character, but I'm afraid he's suffering the same problem Jason suffers outside the writers and readers that fail to read the stuff that has made him melt down and being an actual good person (even in Super Sons, where he is an arrogant brat for comedy reasons, he's manipulative and all that, but never a totally insensitive jerk that is willed to kill his partners without remorse or even warning; he's a good kid overall, as he is in other titles, and as much as I don't like him).

I'm having some flashes now; I was so disappointed by that crossover, and it made me get mad in the end.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I can see where you're going with this and I know it should too but I'm not sure that's how he views the Speedforce but maybe he thinks it shouldn't function like Wolverine's healing factor which is so powerful to the point of lacking in realism. And Priest seems to opt for a more realistic way of writing stories these days. As for Damian he might see Damian as the type of character with a willingness to take extreme steps because that's what Batman is known for at times and Damian is in a sense a mini-Batman. And also according to his blog where he acknowledge the growth Damian went through well he says after they got rid of the flaws then what's next?


Again its not Damian's flaws that are the problem but the way writers handle those flaws. They tend to dial up his flaws to 11 and there is also a tendency to pull him back to square one in order to do so. Also character growth doesn't mean that the flaws go away completely and I hope that's not what Priest was saying there. Damian struggles with his flaws constantly and we see that a lot in various stories but I feel that at the end of the day his training with Dick and his oath not to kill be the thing that keeps him from reacting to things as his assassin training would have him do. Up until the N52 reset things his vow not to kill was extremely important to him as was following his father's teachings. His own mother disowned him even in reaction to his wanting to follow the path of his father rather his grandfather.

----------


## G-Potion

Art time!

https://twitter.com/aaaaaaaaa_a_a_a

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Gette52

----------


## G-Potion

By the way this is how Jason looks in the Red Hood Fan Series. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgRkfWVjzsH/

----------


## JasonTodd428

Love the art and that costume looks great as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Costume is on point but the actor looks pretty old.

----------


## Tony Stark

> https://twitter.com/Gette52


That is frigging awesome!

----------


## RedBird

> Costume is on point but the actor looks pretty old.


Yeah looks more Frank Castle than Jason Todd, but with that comparison in mind, I think I can see what they were going for.

----------


## dietrich

> I wonder whether what he did with Damian shows that he isn't invested in writing the non-classic characters?


What he did with Damian in TLC was editorial refusing his 1st draft of Damian which was similar to how he wrote him in Deathstroke. Maybe they took the edge too far in TLC by making him a Batman/Deathstroke hybrid but it is fair to point out that editor said Priest's own take was OCC.

I don't know what he's invested in but I know he wanted Damian for Defiance and I know he referenced Damian's solo series which tells me that he at least did his research on the character and that he personally wants to write him.

Priest engaged extensively with fans after TLC which he did not have to which I feel shows that he unlike some writers does care about how he represents characters

I think Priest Jason slip was an honest mistake. Like some characters are more present in your mind while some are forgettable.
Jason clearly is more present in Priest's mind especially since he fits the type of character he likes

----------


## Aahz

And in case of Deathstroke it seems also for me that he at least read some of the original Series other wise he wouldn't have used characters like Pat and Luis.

If he is willing to do the research for other characters is another question. (Or if he is in Jason's case, which incarnation he prefers: Morrison, Lobdell, Winick ...)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What he did with Damian in TLC was editorial refusing his 1st draft of Damian which was similar to how he wrote him in Deathstroke. Maybe they took the edge too far in TLC by making him a Batman/Deathstroke hybrid but it is fair to point out that editor said Priest's own take was OCC.
> 
> I don't know what he's invested in but I know he wanted Damian for Defiance and I know he referenced Damian's solo series which tells me that he at least did his research on the character and that he personally wants to write him.
> 
> Priest engaged extensively with fans after TLC which he did not have to which I feel shows that he unlike some writers does care about how he represents characters


Well Priest admitted what he did had more to do with keeping things interesting by not keeping things perfect and so both the rejected and accepted takes on Damian were out of character? He seems to love flawed characters more than white bread characters but he needs to work on balancing Damian's flaws with his strengths and developments so I'm sort of glad he didn't get Damian for Defiance though putting Kid Flash there was not any better. If he has done some research Priest should know that it was Tim not Jason who was jealous of Damian back in Post-Crisis because I hope there's still time for him to correct that mistake provided he hasn't submitted his script before his interview. And if Priest is willing to engage with the fans at least he's one of the few old guard writers who are not insular though DC has taken the lead a little by introducing a social media policy to safe guard writers on Twitter from attacks from rabid users. And I hope that slip about Jason was an honest mistake.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Again its not Damian's flaws that are the problem but the way writers handle those flaws. They tend to dial up his flaws to 11 and there is also a tendency to pull him back to square one in order to do so. Also character growth doesn't mean that the flaws go away completely and I hope that's not what Priest was saying there. Damian struggles with his flaws constantly and we see that a lot in various stories but I feel that at the end of the day his training with Dick and his oath not to kill be the thing that keeps him from reacting to things as his assassin training would have him do. Up until the N52 reset things his vow not to kill was extremely important to him as was following his father's teachings. His own mother disowned him even in reaction to his wanting to follow the path of his father rather his grandfather.


I see your point Damian is a very challenging character to write as unlike a lot of DC characters he's the type who works best when he's three dimensional not two dimensional. As far as I know all the statements he said about fans wanting boring characters had more to do with him wanting to know what fans want so it's best to just give Priest your thoughts on how Damian should be written to avoid any more disastrous portrayals. I know I have and I even told him it was Tim who was the jealous one so I hope it's not too late because if it is Tim Drake fans are not going to be happy. Though they were probably never happy when Tim became jealous and his love ones kept dropping like flies.

----------


## Aioros22

Injustice is out and Jason has a brief tangle with the Batman`s Daugther, one more hero goes down and another gets captured. 

She`s one thougt cookie but you can tell it was done in the way it was for the body count.

----------


## Aioros22

As for the casuality, Damn it Barry!

----------


## Aahz

> Injustice is out and Jason has a brief tangle with the Batman`s Daugther, one more hero goes down and another gets captured. 
> 
> She`s one thougt cookie but you can tell it was done in the way it was for the body count.


Sofar the Injustice comics were pretty disappointing when it comes to Jason sofar. And honestly Batman`s Daugther seems a little bit over powered here.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Sofar the Injustice comics were pretty disappointing when it comes to Jason sofar. And honestly Batman`s Daugther seems a little bit over powered here.


Being overpowered is a trait that generally belongs to the whole of the Batfamily even Jason on his own could have defeated Black Mask so Scott Lobdell had to be very creative when using him.

----------


## Aioros22

Nah, it was just rushed to have them go for the escape route so you could escalate things further. She charges with a punch, he dodges it. She then goes for the gun, he blocks it high. The gun then sticks a blade out and she hits him pushing it down.

Honestly, she looked way less overpowered against Jason than Jason did against Batman. Batboy was completely manhandled apart so there isn`t much room for complaints here. The cool thing, if you can call it that, is knowing they will have a rematch. It might even be his first major hit as Red Hood until the end of this volume. 

It`s going to be either Jason or Damian. She`s a main general of Ra`s side and she`s not in the game so someone is offing her and my money is on them two. 

But more on Jason. He`s not letting it slide next time they meet.

----------


## Aioros22

And it still needs to be revealed his connection to her. I found it funny that she seems to have a katana with her as well..

----------


## Aahz

> It`s going to be either Jason or Damian. She`s a main general of Ra`s side and she`s not in the game so someone is offing her and my money is on them two.


Just that someone is not in the game (espacally if it is not even an established DC character) doesn't mean he will die.

----------


## G-Potion

> It`s going to be either Jason or Damian. She`s a main general of Ra`s side and she`s not in the game so someone is offing her and my money is on them two. 
> 
> But more on Jason. He`s not letting it slide next time they meet.


Since she scored against him with the hidden blade of the gun, it would be fair if next time he gets her with the same trick, only with more electricity.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aioros22

> Just that someone is not in the game (espacally if it is not even an established DC character) doesn't mean he will die.


True enough but within the timeframe of Injustice2 if it`s not in the game then it means something took the character off the whole story.

----------


## Barbatos666

Does it even matter? This character is pointless, Taylor has done virtually nothing with her since this series started.

I think she'll die along with maybe Talia and their deaths will probably cause more tension between Bruce and Damian.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I thought it was obvious that any character not shown or alluded on the games would've been dead by the end of the comic.

----------


## Aioros22

> Does it even matter? This character is pointless, Taylor has done virtually nothing with her since this series started.
> 
> I think she'll die along with maybe Talia and their deaths will probably cause more tension between Bruce and Damian.


It`s not that it matters, is what I would like best. 

She`s a pointless character in terms of the game but this Comic is the prequel and here she`s been an active player.

----------


## Alycat

One thing jarring about Injustice Jason is how old he looks in the comic since I can't help but imagine him with his young sounding game voice.

----------


## Barbatos666

> It`s not that it matters, is what I would like best. 
> 
> She`s a pointless character in terms of the game but this Comic is the prequel and here she`s been an active player.


She's pointless in the comics as well. What's her deal? Where are her interactions with Damian? How does she feel about...well anything?

----------


## kaimaciel

Since Jason is badly injured, I wonder if Vixen is gonna ask Batman's group for help, and that will be their reunion. I have the feeling that Bruce already knows that the fake Batman was Jason and he's not going to be neither happy or forgiving.

----------


## Alycat

> She's pointless in the comics as well. What's her deal? Where are her interactions with Damian? How does she feel about...well anything?


Tbh I feel like most of the characters that aren't Batman/Kara/Harley are having this issue at the moment.

----------


## Barbatos666

Damian is ok, others are villains/established characters/not in the game.

While I do agree with your point this character still stands out. She's Batman's daughter, DAUGHTER and if for example Bane jumped out of the bushes and broke her back Damian would probably say bah and move on.

----------


## Alycat

> Damian is ok, others are villains/established characters/not in the game.
> 
> While I do agree with your point this character still stands out. She's Batman's daughter, DAUGHTER and if for example Bane jumped out of the bushes and broke her back Damian would probably say bah and move on.



Since this is Injustce, I could totally see this happening and saying "Yeah, that happened."

----------


## G-Potion

> One thing jarring about Injustice Jason is how old he looks in the comic since I can't help but imagine him with his young sounding game voice.


I think so as well. But at least the art in the latest issue has improved a lot on that front.

----------


## G-Potion

> Since Jason is badly injured, I wonder if Vixen is gonna ask Batman's group for help, and that will be their reunion. I have the feeling that Bruce already knows that the fake Batman was Jason and he's not going to be neither happy or forgiving.


That's the case then I'm gonna be so disappointed at his lack of reaction until now.

----------


## Aioros22

> She's pointless in the comics as well. What's her deal? Where are her interactions with Damian? How does she feel about...well anything?


I get the feeling you're supposed to keep reading to find out. All we know is that she's misteriously connected to the League and Batman, at least from her upfront and that she plays the part of the loyal heir to the Al Ghul that Damian is lacking now. 

As for what she feels about anything, she doesnt think twice in killing anyone who double crosses Ras, no matter how familiar they should be and her role is of one of the main baddies of that army. Before the Regime and Superman return in full force in the game these have been the main third party deciding over the fate of the world. 

This comic is a much bigger slow burn when it comes to character roles.

----------


## Mauriciofq

Who's Dio in DC universe?

----------


## Aioros22

It`s Jojo...Bizarro!

By the by, I know some loathe Titans and I`m not a fan but buuuut as someone who likes Roy and as a former Outlaw can I say I enjoy that for once he was not the one doing the job and got the focus of the issue? 

Man that isn`t the Flashes month.

----------


## Aioros22

Still a shame his time with the Outlaws wasn`t mentioned as far as his "friends" go but it *is* the Titans..you take what you can.

----------


## Alycat

> It`s Jojo...Bizarro!
> 
> By the by, I know some loathe Titans and I`m not a fan but buuuut as someone who likes Roy and as a former Outlaw can I say I enjoy that for once he was not the one doing the job and got the focus of the issue? 
> 
> Man that isn`t the Flashes month.


I'm glad for Roy. It's actually surprising considering how little he got in the first issues. Maybe one day Dick, Garth, and Donna can join Roy and Wally in the big leagues!

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm glad for Roy. It's actually surprising considering how little he got in the first issues. Maybe one day Dick, Garth, and Donna can join Roy and Wally in the big leagues!


Garth and Dick are by far the ones with less focus on in Titans. I don't mind Dick, really; he has his own book. But Garth is barely a character I know about, and I have hopes on the book giving him some story arc that dives into his background and character, or something. So far, all I can get from the book is that he's an atlantean wizard who has a crush on Omen and some dark story behind.

----------


## Alycat

> Garth and Dick are by far the ones with less focus on in Titans. I don't mind Dick, really; he has his own book. But Garth is barely a character I know about, and I have hopes on the book giving him some story arc that dives into his background and character, or something. So far, all I can get from the book is that he's an atlantean wizard who has a crush on Omen and some dark story behind.


I feel sorry for Garth fans. He deserves better. Also, you actually just reminded me that Omen is on the team too. That's how terrible the book is though.

----------


## Zaresh

> I feel sorry for Garth fans. He deserves better. Also, you actually just reminded me that Omen is on the team too. That's how terrible the book is though.


I'm a Wally fan and am considering dropping it from my "ongoing reading" list. That says a lot.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm a Wally fan and am considering dropping it from my "ongoing reading" list. That says a lot.


I'm a fan of all the characters in that book and I dropped it after four issues. Its really a terrible book made even more so because Abnett is normally a pretty decent writer. This one just isn't one of his better works.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Still a shame his time with the Outlaws wasn`t mentioned as far as his "friends" go but it *is* the Titans..you take what you can.


I like to think that Jason was the Robin he was talking about when he said "...But the Robin I used to know would have put his friends first"

----------


## G-Potion

Aww

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

> I like to think that Jason was the Robin he was talking about when he said "...But the Robin I used to know would have put his friends first"


Oh, that flew past me because he was talking to Dick but I like it, I like it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Aww
> 
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


I like that. I still miss the original Outlaws.

----------


## Alycat

Nah, I'm pretty content with that line being about Dick. Which makes sense, he and Roy seem to butt heads over Dick's attitude quite a bit, since Dick acts like his name pretty often.

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah, I'm pretty content with that line being about Dick. Which makes sense, he and Roy seem to butt heads over Dick's attitude quite a bit, since Dick acts like his name pretty often.


I prefer it ambiguous as it is xD 

Roy and Garth are by a good margin my faves of the original crew so I am not going to pretend I dont prefer Roy getting the spotlight considering he hardly shows up on any other book. Garth at least has been swiming in the Aquaman titles so it doesnt bother me the little either Titan book does with characters of the franchise. They get the fair due in those.

I did like how they pictured Garth in the launch, being the toughest coockie of the Team as he obvioysly should but Abnett has not use him in any meaningful capacity since then.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well, I wasn't expecting Lobdell to be involved in this

https://www.newsarama.com/39083-shaz...ver-books.html

----------


## Aioros22

A shame he`s not writting a Red Hood crossover because that one with Flash holds no interest to me whatsoever. 

The Aquaman shot is the one I`m swiming for and the Jeff Parker Shazam looks nice too.

----------


## Aioros22

It didn`t even need to be Red Hood either, a Bizarro toon crossover would be ace. especially with pup pup  :Big Grin:

----------


## EMarie

Look who got an omnibus.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/03...buses-deluxes/

----------


## The Whovian

> Look who got an omnibus.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/03...buses-deluxes/


Yep, and I'm definitely getting this

----------


## G-Potion

Sweet! Take my money.

----------


## G-Potion

Soy knew what he was doing with that 4th page.

----------


## G-Potion

Happy that they make this platform for independent film-makers. Hopefully it means more projects getting out there to the viewers. 

The wait for Red Hood: IT is almost over. I'm in love with their concept already.

----------


## G-Potion

Cover for Red Hood & the Outlaws Vol. 4

----------


## RedBird

> Soy knew what he was doing with that 4th page.


Good God XD

Bless Dexter Soy

He knows whats up

----------


## G-Potion

He also says it wasn't his intention for the Jojo similarities as he's not familiar with it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Look who got an omnibus.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/03...buses-deluxes/


The downside is that includes Tynion's run.

Ew.

----------


## Zaresh

> Soy knew what he was doing with that 4th page.


I tweeted mentioning him once about Jason's sexy thighs like 7 or 8 issues ago (I think I was mentioned him, but maybe I was replying one of his tweets). He retweeted me back. Somehow, I feel responsible for making him aware, even if I know it's been a meme since long ago.

----------


## Zaresh

> Cover for Red Hood & the Outlaws Vol. 4


That's fine are. Daaang.

Oh, so the JoJo nods weren't intentional. That's even funnier.

----------


## Aioros22

C`mon I don`t believe someone so fandom aware as Soy is that he didn`t realize he was drawing Jojo intentional parallells. That`s twice as awesome, the man is just *aesthetically in the zone*!

----------


## Aioros22

> The downside is that includes Tynion's run.
> 
> Ew.


The upside is knowing we`re bound to get all this sweet volume in hardcover form as well as the RRAA on the way. 

Also, Red Hood It? Anybody here who saw that film didn`t think of that? I know I did and it fits uniquely and perfectly to him in the franchise. I like their production work so I`m (im)patiently waiting for the release!

----------


## G-Potion

> I tweeted mentioning him once about Jason's sexy thighs like 7 or 8 issues ago (I think I was mentioned him, but maybe I was replying one of his tweets). He retweeted me back. Somehow, I feel responsible for making him aware, even if I know it's been a meme since long ago.


Thanks for doing God's work. The community is forever in your debt.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

> The downside is that includes Tynion's run.
> 
> Ew.


Ditto. I was hoping those wouldn't be included.

----------


## Aioros22

They wanted to make sure Jason owning Shiva and Ras would not be forgotten. 

I appreciate the care.

----------


## The Dying Detective

For such a powerful martial artist Lady Shiva gets taken down a lot by folks who should even be near her skill level first Tim in Post-Crisis and now Jason? Weird but not unexpected.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They wanted to make sure Jason owning Shiva and Ras would not be forgotten. 
> 
> I appreciate the care.


That's the thing. Tynion run is best dead and buried where no one else can find it ever again.

To not mention that the description is misleading since the Omnibus doesn't cover Lobdell's entire run on RHATO despite being possible to cover it in a single volume by skipping Tynion and Pfeiffer issues.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That's the thing. Tynion run is best dead and buried where no one else can find it ever again.
> 
> To not mention that the description is misleading since the Omnibus doesn't cover Lobdell's entire run on RHATO despite being possible to cover it in a single volume by skipping Tynion and Pfeiffer issues.


Tynion's run was complete and utter garbage and I would have rather they didn't include it in the Omibus. I also didn't find Pfeiffer's issue to have been particularly memorable either.

----------


## Aioros22

> That's the thing. Tynion run is best dead and buried where no one else can find it ever again.
> 
> To not mention that the description is misleading since the Omnibus doesn't cover Lobdell's entire run on RHATO despite being possible to cover it in a single volume by skipping Tynion and Pfeiffer issues.


What material is missing in the Omnibus?

----------


## Aioros22

> For such a powerful martial artist Lady Shiva gets taken down a lot by folks who should even be near her skill level first Tim in Post-Crisis and now Jason? Weird but not unexpected


She hardly gets taken down at all but I couldn`t care much. Every character get absurd highs and lows and I am glad Jason was given his even if the run had its share of faults.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> She hardly gets taken down at all but I couldn`t care much. Every character get absurd highs and lows and I am glad Jason was given his even if the run had its share of faults.


Hey when you hear titles like world deadliest martial artist or assassin that person should deliver a solid beat down to anyone beneath his or her skill level. Beating Shiva does put Jason on a level equal if not surpassing Bruce which would be interesting to see if they ever fought again.

----------


## okiedokiewo

See below. https://nerdist.com/batman-48-the-be...usive-preview/

May and June will see DC Comics publish five separate “Prelude to the Wedding” one-shots, which all explore different storylines that will take place as the Bat and the Cat prepare for their big day. All issues are written by Tim Seeley, who is accompanied by different artists on each issue. The five covers will connect to make on image, and you can see two of the covers for the upcoming specials down below. The other three will be revealed at a later date.

...

Batman: Prelude to the Wedding  — Red Hood Vs. Anarky #1

Written by Tim Seeley • Art by Javier Fernandez  • Cover by Rafael Albuquerque

Red Hood has always been the one standing slightly apart from the rest of the Bat crew. Some see him as the Robin gone bad—which is exactly the kind of thing someone like Anarky can exploit. Now Red Hood is running security at Catwoman’s bachelorette party—and if Anarky can crash it, that could be the final straw for Jason Todd! On sale June 20.

----------


## Aioros22

> Hey when you hear titles like world deadliest martial artist or assassin that person should deliver a solid beat down to anyone beneath his or her skill level. Beating Shiva does put Jason on a level equal if not surpassing Bruce which would be interesting to see if they ever fought again.


Cue in to injustice2  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

Okay... if this means Tom King writes less Jason then it can only be good news. Also curious how Seeley would handle him as a main character.

----------


## Aioros22

I believe more in Seeley to handle characterization akin to how he or she are being handled in their own titles than King. 

Not bad but I want me the cover!

----------


## G-Potion

Anarky is an interesting choice to pit Jason against tbh.

----------


## Aioros22

Morally wise it fits. Damian and Ras are a no brainer but it`s not challenging either. 

Dick and Hush because...well, because. Not bad but not exciting either.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah, meant it in a good way, especially if this face-off turns out more cerebral. I'll thank Seeley.

----------


## G-Potion

Still, a shame Jason doesn't get to face Hush.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Considering Seeley was working with King when Jason showed up on Grayson, we're back _again_ with the _Robin going bad_ premise, the current trend of making Lonnie a villain -missing the entire point of anarky as character- is a double slap on the face.

At this point I'm just sick of Jason being dragged to Batfamily events like this. I like he and Bruce are able to talk without turning into a fight every time but they need to stop making them glued to the hip.

----------


## G-Potion

Wasnt Grayson 12 all King? I don't remember clearly. Regardless, I wasn't offended by it though. Also the solicit states "some see him as the robin gone bad" so it can as much be alluding to misconception characters (and readers) who don't know Jason very well have of him. By giving the impression with the solicit, he can prove why its wrong in story. We'll see which direction Seeley takes, whether he is gonna deconstruct the trope.

Edit: Actually no I take it back. I wasn't offended by the reunion between Dick and Jason nor the punch. The other issue with the We Are Robins kids I was not okay with.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, Grayson #12 was ALL King. I just looked at my digital issue of it and King's name is solo on the writing credit there so Seeley had nothing to do with how Jason was handled there and frankly I though he was handled just fine in that issue. Dick deserved both the punch Jason hit him with and the dressing down as well. Anyway I'm looking forward to the issue with Jason and Anarky as well as all the others.

----------


## Alycat

Jason was fine in Grayson #12. Dick deserved that reaction. He was also fine in his Nightwing appearance imo.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Seeley co-wrote King's entire tenure on Grayson.

Seeley lacks any subtlety or interest on subverting expectations, his Nightwing run was as predictable as it would get, so I don't expect any change now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Jason was fine in Grayson #12. Dick deserved that reaction. He was also fine in his Nightwing appearance imo.


He especially deserved it from Jason seeing as how he actually had died before, whereas Dick was just faking it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Seeley co-wrote King's entire tenure on Grayson.
> 
> Seeley lacks any subtlety or interest on subverting expectations, his Nightwing run was as predictable as it would get, so I don't expect any change now.


His name isn't on that particular issue though. Only King's is. Seeley wasn't involved in every single issue of Grayson even if he was co-writer. There were a few specific issues that either ONLY Seeley or King wrote. # 12 was one such issue. I clearly remember one or the other of them mentioning that in an interview somewhere.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> His name isn't on that particular issue though. Only King's is. Seeley wasn't involved in every single issue of Grayson even if he was co-writer. There were a few specific issues that either ONLY Seeley or King wrote. # 12 was one such issue. I clearly remember one or the other of them mentioning that in an interview somewhere.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> 


Only the plot (the Story) was by Seeley not the actually script (writing). That was all King and that is why he is given the writer's credit if you look on Comixology. Most of the issues show both Seeley and King as the writers but this one doesn't and there are a few other times that is the case. It also says so right there in the image you provided. Script/ Tom King. Plot by Seeley and King. Script is the actual writing duties not plotting. That's a separate thing.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason was fine in Grayson #12. Dick deserved that reaction. He was also fine in his Nightwing appearance imo.


Not that I disliked it, but I thought it was strange that Jason would ask about Dick love's life. Didn't think they were at the point for that conversation to happen.

----------


## Aahz

At least Jason is one of the 5 character who gets a one shot, and no other Batfamily character is around to be pushed at his expense. 

But I also think that it would be cooler to have Jason and Lonnie team up, and explore their different morals.

----------


## Alycat

> He especially deserved it from Jason seeing as how he actually had died before, whereas Dick was just faking it.


Tbf, Dick did die for like a minute. He was just pretending to still be dead. Still a jerk move though.




> Not that I disliked it, but I thought it was strange that Jason would ask about Dick love's life. Didn't think they were at the point for that conversation to happen.


I was just super glad to see them in a time of not crises and talking about something normal tbh.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Tbf, Dick did die for like a minute. He was just pretending to still be dead. Still a jerk move though.


I know that but I don't think that Jason knew it at the time. What I was getting at is that the whole thing was likely traumatising for Jason in a way it might not have been for Tim. I think the whole thing made him think about his own death and return and he may have felt that Dick was making light of all his suffering by faking his deaath. Add to that the fact that Dick lied to them all, which is not something hhe felt Dick would do to family and it was at Bruce's request, which he didn't think Dick would agree to and its no wonder Jason was angry enough to punch him.

----------


## Alycat

> I know that but I don't think that Jason knew it at the time. What I was getting at is that the whole thing was likely traumatising for Jason in a way it might not have been for Tim. I think the whole thing made him think about his own death and return and he may have felt that Dick was making light of all his suffering by faking his deaath. Add to that the fact that Dick lied to them all, which is not something hhe felt Dick would do to family and it was at Bruce's request, which he didn't think Dick would agree to and its no wonder Jason was angry enough to punch him.


Oh yeah I fully agree with you there and that's why I liked his reaction, but some people in the fandom don't know or seem to forget that Dick did actually die. Which of course is the fault of editorial for ignoring the death and family reactions until that point.

----------


## RedBird

> Not that I disliked it, but I thought it was strange that Jason would ask about Dick love's life. Didn't think they were at the point for that conversation to happen.


Not that I disagree, but I can't personally begrudge that aspect too much, since as a writer, and in terms of the narrative, it was clearly less a question of 'would Jason ask this?' and more 'I gotta just move the plot along and I need each member of the family to inquire about my latest plot device (girl)'. So I understand if ensuring that each member of the family asking was 'in character' was not a priority.

However, I think the aspect that I appreciated more from Seeley, was all the other elements of characterization, like him making Jason 'jokey', without necessarily turning Jason into a joke or punchline 'ala King style'. And also using Jasons own constant self reflection and self awareness to give Dick words of wisdom about his (at the time) new girl. So, Jason was; Teasing, self aware sometimes to the point of self deprecation, and is also a voice of reason. Even in only 1-2 pages thats the still better characterization than what most writers give. Also, I must admit I do like to see Jasons go to example of activities done in between patrol hours being 'a poetry slam'. Its close enough to my own love for 'lit nerd Jay', so yeah there's that too. :P

That ALL being said of course. That one moment is unfortunately the sole example I can think of for Seeley (and only Seeley) writing Jason. I liked it, Buuuuuuuut just in case that ends up being an outlier, I'm still bracing myself for a train wreck here. I trust Seeley with Dick and Damian thanks to their nightwing arc together, and I'm pretty sure his Babs is alright from the bits and pieces I've read, but I think this may be the issue to finally give me true insight into his Jason. Fingers crossed.


Sidenote: Is Tim not in this event?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Sidenote: Is Tim not in this event?


As far as anyone knows, no but at least there is a in story reason for it. Bruce is currently on the outs with Tim as per the current 'Tec arc so I wouldn't expect him to be involved for reasons of story consistency. I'd actually find it odd for Tim to be involved in this given how angry he is right now but that might just be me.

----------


## RedBird

> As far as anyone knows, no but at least there is a in story reason for it. Bruce is currently on the outs with Tim as per the current 'Tec arc so I wouldn't expect him to be involved for reasons of story consistency. I'd actually find it odd for Tim to be involved in this given how angry he is right now but that might just be me.


Oh yeah, well I mean if they are going for consistency then I guess that makes sense. The TEC thing totally skipped my mind on this, I'm not used to these comics being consistent between each other. That said though, these issues are popping up around June, and tec is bi monthly, I wonder just how long Tim is planning on being mad at Bruce? Was that fight really that much of a game changer.

----------


## Alycat

> Not that I disagree, but I can't personally begrudge that aspect too much, since as a writer, and in terms of the narrative, it was clearly less a question of 'would Jason ask this?' and more 'I gotta just move the plot along and I need each member of the family to inquire about my latest plot device (girl)'. So I understand if ensuring that each member of the family asking was 'in character' was not a priority.
> 
> However, I think the aspect that I appreciated more from Seeley, was all the other elements of characterization, like him making Jason 'jokey', without necessarily turning Jason into a joke or punchline 'ala King style'. And also using Jasons own constant self reflection and self awareness to give Dick words of wisdom about his (at the time) new girl. So, Jason was; Teasing, self aware sometimes to the point of self deprecation, and is also a voice of reason. Even in only 1-2 pages thats the still better characterization than what most writers give. Also, I must admit I do like to see Jasons go to example of activities done in between patrol hours being 'a poetry slam'. Its close enough to my own love for 'lit nerd Jay', so yeah there's that too. :P
> 
> That ALL being said of course. That one moment is unfortunately the sole example I can think of for Seeley (and only Seeley) writing Jason. I liked it, Buuuuuuuut just in case that ends up being an outlier, I'm still bracing myself for a train wreck here. I trust Seeley with Dick and Damian thanks to their nightwing arc together, and I'm pretty sure his Babs is alright from the bits and pieces I've read, but I think this may be the issue to finally give me true insight into his Jason. Fingers crossed.
> 
> 
> Sidenote: Is Tim not in this event?


Best part of that issue was the artist having Jason practice proper trigger discipline. Its a shame how many artsist forget that when drawing characters holding a gun.

----------


## G-Potion

> That ALL being said of course. That one moment is unfortunately the sole example I can think of for Seeley (and only Seeley) writing Jason. I liked it, Buuuuuuuut just in case that ends up being an outlier, I'm still bracing myself for a train wreck here. I trust Seeley with Dick and Damian thanks to their nightwing arc together, and I'm pretty sure his Babs is alright from the bits and pieces I've read, but I think this may be the issue to finally give me true insight into his Jason. Fingers crossed.


I completely agree, and tbh I still have a fondness for that scene, just need to take it for what it is. That's not the only instance Seeley wrote him though. If my memory is still intact, he also wrote the BR:E issue where Jason fought Cass. I know it ruffled some feathers, but as a Jason fans, can't say I wasn't thankful that Seeley treated him well.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Zaresh

I have some faith in Seeley, and Anarky sounds like an interesting choice for him as an antagonist. Also, lots and lots of red to come art wise  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

Jason and Damian:

BATS.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Jay Roy costume swap.

https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/naratani

----------


## G-Potion

Retro covers.

https://twitter.com/grumpybets

----------


## The Dying Detective

If DC ever got around to it I bet there can be Red Hood Black Label graphic novel or an Ink graphic novel.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/naratani


This one is really cool. Diggin the style.
The retro covers are cute, too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well now issue 24 can't get here soon enough.




https://thisgirllovesdc-comics.tumbl...ms-together-in

----------


## Zaresh

> Well now issue 24 can't get here soon enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://thisgirllovesdc-comics.tumbl...ms-together-in


Nice, so we still get to see those alternate Outlaws, I guess. But I thought issue 24 was still running the Penguin's story? Or we didn't get that solicit yet?

----------


## RedBird

> Well now issue 24 can't get here soon enough.
> 
> 
> 
> https://thisgirllovesdc-comics.tumbl...ms-together-in


Glad to see thats still happening  :Smile: 
I wonder for what purpose however? (story progress/development wise)

I also still so badly want to see the other idea Lobdell was throwing around, the one where the Dark Trinity have to pretend to be the real Trinity.


Sidenote, wasn't rebirth supposed to end by the two year mark which is pretty much a few months away in July? Is there gonna be something, 'special' or 'trans-formative' about issue #24?

----------


## Aioros22

No ideia but I am salivating about the #AllOutlaws encounter that can diverge in other storyarcs..Superman is showing up in the book because of Bizarro so maybe then pretending to be the real Trinity comes from the current arc. On the other hand, Roy is having the spothlight in another book so I'm wondering if that will translate into this book as well. We know Jason has shown concern about his care in this book before. 

And there is also the tangent Artemis and the Crepper connection left in the air as well both Solitary and the misterious figure if they happen to be different entities altogether. 

Busy months are the coming!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Probably Superman isn't showing up on the book, that cover seems to just be a "flavor of the month" one since all the variants that month have Superman on them.

----------


## G-Potion

So it's sooner than I thought. Wonder what the "Sorta" in Lobdell's reply meants. My only hope is that it's really a reunion with the old Outlaws and not the flashback/hallucination/alternate univerve types. Hype!

----------


## okiedokiewo

> So it's sooner than I thought. Wonder what the "Sorta" in Lobdell's reply meants. My only hope is that it's really a reunion with the old Outlaws and not the flashback/hallucination/alternate univerve types. Hype!


I fear it is just an AU type thing and not the real characters, based on his past interview about it and the "sorta."

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is way too early to say anything for sure but if Lobdell's plans do pan out, there will be some very interesting stuff to look forward in the future regarding RHATO.

----------


## okiedokiewo

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #23
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN • Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH • Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
Bizarro is teetering on the brink between brilliance and—well, Bizarro! Artemis is coming to grips with her past as a secret envoy to Lex Luthor. But it’s Red Hood who’s in for the shock of his life when he finds the cache of letters Ma Gunn kept from him when he was a ward under her care. Letters from his father. Jason Todd has hated his deadbeat dad as long as he can remember, but what he’s about to learn may threaten the future of the Outlaws—and anyone who dares to stand in Jason’s path.
On sale JUNE 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+

----------


## Zaresh

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #23
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN • Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH • Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Bizarro is teetering on the brink between brilliance and—well, Bizarro! Artemis is coming to grips with her past as a secret envoy to Lex Luthor. But it’s Red Hood who’s in for the shock of his life when he finds the cache of letters Ma Gunn kept from him when he was a ward under her care. Letters from his father. Jason Todd has hated his deadbeat dad as long as he can remember, but what he’s about to learn may threaten the future of the Outlaws—and anyone who dares to stand in Jason’s path.
> On sale JUNE 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


Oh, so solicits only went until #22 until now.
Good, we're finally reaching the point of sh*t hitting the fan. I guess this will be the last issue dealing with Bizarro's problem, and I'm guessing as well that, at that point, Jason and Artemis--or at least Jason--knows about Ma Gunn being trapped inside that bottle thing; and also the unveiling of Artemis ties with Creeper, I guess? So that's two-three lingering threads being sort of resolved, while we still have the thing with the letters, Solitary and probably whatever has to do with the former team still running as plot threads, while we will probably get one or two new ones in the incoming few issues as well.

This run could be really good base material for a TV series. That's how you catch the audience each week, to be honest; lying new mysteries while solving old ones. I mean, it probably could be a bit faster, but still, this book is so much entertaining to read--and fun, it's also really fun. I hope it manages to stay this way for a long while.

----------


## magpieM

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #23
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN • Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH • Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Bizarro is teetering on the brink between brilliance and—well, Bizarro! Artemis is coming to grips with her past as a secret envoy to Lex Luthor. But it’s Red Hood who’s in for the shock of his life when he finds the cache of letters Ma Gunn kept from him when he was a ward under her care. Letters from his father. Jason Todd has hated his deadbeat dad as long as he can remember, but what he’s about to learn may threaten the future of the Outlaws—and anyone who dares to stand in Jason’s path.
> On sale JUNE 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


Oh finally he's gonna read the letter, knowing who has been hiding it from him...

Soy won't be the artist?! 
Da** I really wish to see how Soy would handle Jason's reaction in this issue

----------


## JasonTodd428

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #23
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN • Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH • Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Bizarro is teetering on the brink between brilliance and—well, Bizarro! Artemis is coming to grips with her past as a secret envoy to Lex Luthor. But it’s Red Hood who’s in for the shock of his life when he finds the cache of letters Ma Gunn kept from him when he was a ward under her care. Letters from his father. Jason Todd has hated his deadbeat dad as long as he can remember, but what he’s about to learn may threaten the future of the Outlaws—and anyone who dares to stand in Jason’s path.
> On sale JUNE 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


I'm really looking forward to finding out just what those letters say.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #23
> Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN • Cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
> Variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH • Retailers: This issue will ship with two covers. Please see the order form for details.
> Bizarro is teetering on the brink between brilliance and—well, Bizarro! Artemis is coming to grips with her past as a secret envoy to Lex Luthor. But it’s Red Hood who’s in for the shock of his life when he finds the cache of letters Ma Gunn kept from him when he was a ward under her care. Letters from his father. Jason Todd has hated his deadbeat dad as long as he can remember, but what he’s about to learn may threaten the future of the Outlaws—and anyone who dares to stand in Jason’s path.
> On sale JUNE 13 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T+


So it seems like Bizarro still retains his intelligence, at least for now. Curious about Artemis as well, and I wonder if her working for Luthor still extends to the current time. I don't think it's the case but still, would be interesting if she's a double agent within the Outlaws.

So hype for the Jason portion. In the cover he's holding a shovel.... digging someone up? Will the mystery surrounding Willis have to do with what's has been on his subconcious as Queen Bee has pointed out? Will it relate to his ressurection? Does the mysterious man have a role in this at all? Where does the old Outlaws come in? So many answers and possibly new questions in this one issue and I just adore how Lobdell has been weaving everything together and let them start snowballing now. The only shame is that Dexter Soy isn't here. I really hope he doesn't miss #24 as well.

----------


## G-Potion

Well the good thing is that TREVOR HAIRSINE and RYAN WINN also do wicked cool art from what I've seen.

----------


## G-Potion

Good news Soy will be back for #24 yeeee!

----------


## Zaresh

> Good news Soy will be back for #24 yeeee!


Looks like he gets a break every 7 or 8 issues, right? Maybe both 22 and 23 are going to go with the same team, if we're lucky. I, too, have looked at them and looks promising, definitely.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason starting to shovel people. 

Now you know he`s pissed.

----------


## G-Potion

The hat!
http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> Looks like he gets a break every 7 or 8 issues, right? Maybe both 22 and 23 are going to go with the same team, if we're lucky. I, too, have looked at them and looks promising, definitely.


Just feel like it has been fewer than every 7, 8 issues. We just had the team back for #20 and already #23 (#22 too?) are someone else. Hopefully from #24 up it will be longer before they take a break.

----------


## G-Potion

Wha! Bless Dexter Soy aaaa   :Embarrassment: 

https://www.instagram.com/death_star_soy/

----------


## Zaresh

> Just feel like it has been fewer than every 7, 8 issues. We just had the team back for #20 and already #23 (#22 too?) are someone else. Hopefully from #24 up it will be longer before they take a break.


Right. I forget about the dating issue, maybe because I liked the art a lot (and fitted the tone quite well) . Let's cross our fingers then and hope it last longer, even if I'm sure these guys are probably going to be pretty good too. In any case, with exceptions, we're being quite lucky with the fill ins, I would say.

Damn, JJMK is getting better with each new fanart.

----------


## TheAlexHunter

I made a Jason Todd Fan Film (with his as Robin, not Red Hood) ((there are way too many Red Hood Fan Films)). It isn't a typical "fan film" as it was shot on the same Camera's they shoot Daredevil on, and has fairly high production value for having a really low budget. We would love to hear your thoughts so please please please leave a comment on here or on the video and let me know what you think!

----------


## Aioros22

Ohh, I'm at the phone but I will check it out later x) love fan films. 

On a comic related news we find out in Injustice that "Batman's Daugther" is indeed a daugther of Talia and she's returned to life presumely like Jason did.

----------


## Alycat

> Ohh, I'm at the phone but I will check it out later x) love fan films. 
> 
> On a comic related news we find out in Injustice that "Batman's Daugther" is indeed a daugther of Talia and she's returned to life presumely like Jason did.


I almost forgot Injustice came out today.With that ending, I hope it means the story picks up soon. Cause it has been a slog.

----------


## Aahz

> I almost forgot Injustice came out today.With that ending, I hope it means the story picks up soon. Cause it has been a slog.


It looks based on solits like the next 2 (digital) issues will focus on "Batman's Daugther" and then we will get at least 4 issues about Hal Jordan.

So unless Jason pops up in the "Batman's Daugther" issues, it might take some time till we see him again.

----------


## RedBird

https://comicbookconvos.blogspot.com...-7-taylor.html

Here's an interview with the RHATO Letterer Taylor Esposito.

It mainly focuses on the difficulties with lettering, the misconceptions and some advice for anyone wanting to pursue the career.

Plus here's a nice snippet.



_GK: You've spent a lot of time lettering Red Hood and the Outlaws. In your opinion, what makes lettering Jason Todds adventures different from other titles youve worked on?

TE: Honestly, its my favorite Bat-character, since I see a lot of myself in Jason. Hothead who doesnt quite fit in with everyone else. I just relate a bit, which makes it easy to get into the book and enjoy it._



It's not necessary per say, but it's always nice to hear that the people working on the book actually enjoy the character as well.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

You know in light of seeing Bizarro world and in all it's opposite glory I bet Jason and Artemis have their own counterparts there. And want to bet that Bizarro Jason is grim like Batman and fights using stuffed animals instead of guns.  While Bizarro Artemis needs her Jason to think for her.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's not necessary per say, but it's always nice to hear that the people working on the book actually enjoy the character as well.


It's the only title I know where the whole team genuinely love the character and openly expressed it. RHATO is truly blessed.

----------


## G-Potion

http://ketchup212.tumblr.com/

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's the only title I know where the whole team genuinely love the character and openly expressed it. RHATO is truly blessed.


What about Judd Winick the man who brought Jason back to life?

----------


## G-Potion

> What about Judd Winick the man who brought Jason back to life?


Judd Winick isn't on the team though. Though, I'd say that he enjoyed the character as well, considering his work on UTH, Lost Days and the several guest appearances he gave Jason in other books.

----------


## G-Potion

狩猎黄昏种

----------


## G-Potion

狩猎黄昏种

----------


## G-Potion

悬空之人

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Judd Winick isn't on the team though. Though, I'd say that he enjoyed the character as well, considering his work on UTH, Lost Days and the several guest appearances he gave Jason in other books.


Jason sure is popular with the public but it sounds like he isn't very popular with many staff members at DC since some just make him a kill happy psycho.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason sure is popular with the public but it sounds like he isn't very popular with many staff members at DC since some just make him a kill happy psycho.


Well DC couldn't just admit that the poll was a shitty thing to do so they just had to lay the blame on Jason instead. Writers were just carrying out the the task until the "bad robin" misinformation is widely spread.

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## The Dying Detective

> Well DC couldn't just admit that the poll was a shitty thing to do so they just had to lay the blame on Jason instead. Writers were just carrying out the the task until the misinformation is widely spread.


And yet Jason gets a writer who actually wants to give him a better reputation than the old writers who make him sound incompetent when he was Robin and portray him as a killer without nuance.

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## G-Potion

> And yet Jason gets a writer who actually wants to give him a better reputation than the old writers who make him sound incompetent when he was Robin and portray him as a killer without nuance.


It's largely thanks to the fan demand I guess. IIRC, at the start of N52 they said that the request for a Jason book was the highest they've ever seen. Jason getting a book meant giving him an actual direction, whereas pre-N52 they didn't know what to do with him. Also Dark once shared that Judd Winnick was supposed to helm the first RHATO series, but DC liked Lobdell's pitch and gave it to him instead.

Now with RHATO rebirth, not only the writer but the artist, colorist and letterer have expressed their love for the character as well.

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## The Dying Detective

> It's largely thanks to the fan demand I guess. IIRC, at the start of N52 they said that the request for a Jason book was the highest they've ever seen. Jason getting a book meant giving him an actual direction, whereas pre-N52 they didn't know what to do with him. Also Dark once shared that Judd Winnick was supposed to helm the first RHATO series, but DC liked Lobdell's pitch and gave it to him instead.


Well that explain Jason's wild card status in the Pre-52 but can you imagine if DC had not rebooted and still gave Jason a book? So what was Judd Winick's pitch anyway?

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## G-Potion

> Well that explain Jason's wild card status in the Pre-52 but can you imagine if DC had not rebooted and still gave Jason a book? So what was Judd Winick's pitch anyway?


Not sure what his pitch was. Maybe Dark can answer this?

As for a non-reboot Jason book, I'm not sure if I'd like it that way. The last time we saw him pre-reboot he had Scarlett as a sidekick and to be honest, I don't think it's something Jason should do considering how well it had turned out for him.

----------


## G-Potion

Also pre-N52 has some canon that I'd rather not have happened at all. Battle for the Cowl and Nightwing: Brothers in Blood come to mind. Thankful for n52 for wiping them all clean.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not sure what his pitch was. Maybe Dark can answer this?
> 
> As for a non-reboot Jason book, I'm not sure if I'd like it that way. The last time we saw him pre-reboot he had Scarlett as a sidekick and to be honest, I don't think it's something Jason should do considering how well it had turned out for him.


I'll wait until Dark comes along then. Well there is an option to deal with Scarlett have Jason give Scarlett actual help and put her Leslie Thompkins and have Jason go off on his own without her. That way he can have other characters working like him.




> Also pre-N52 has some canon that I'd rather not have happened at all. Battle for the Cowl and Nightwing: Brothers in Blood come to mind. Thankful for n52 for wiping them all clean.


Well there is the option of turning the kill happy Batman in Battle for the Cowl and whoever it was in Nightwing: Brothers in Blood into imposters Jason is hunting down and he proves to the rest of the Batfamily that he isn't that killer.

----------


## G-Potion

That's rather complicated isn't it? What would the imposter's motive be? As horrible as BftC is, the emotion was running too high for it to be anyone but Jason. Also Bruce's will played a big part in making Jason go off the rail.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's rather complicated isn't it? What would the imposter's motive be? As horrible as BftC is, the emotion was running too high for it to be anyone but Jason. Also Bruce's will played a big part in making Jason go off the rail.


Maybe someone who wanted to replicate Jason as part of some twisted game to besmirch Batman's name maybe Ra's al Ghul though Ra's respects Batman too much to pull something like that he's willing to a lot of things but that might not be one of those things. Well it can be anyone really Gotham is full of sick people who would do such a thing you could even use the Court of Owls for something like that. It's tricky and bound to be full of plot holes that one must think through before writing it down but if DC had not rebooted it might be the best way to redeem Jason. Either that or someone caught Jason and used a drug on him to try to make him a weapon against Batman. But it benefits the wider DC Universe and Jason all at the same time. It's mainly using continuity as a tool something I learned from Shawn James he maybe an arrogant man who only commits half the research  for anything he writes and suffers from delusions but he does understand somethings about writing comics. But I would not make him editor in chief of DC Comics if he was he would reboot the whole universe and start from scratch but he would definitely never bring back Jason or include Damian since he hates them. And he needs to see a psychiatrist.

----------


## RedBird

> Now with RHATO rebirth, not only the writer but the artist, *colorist* and letterer have expressed their love for the character as well.


Veronica too? I must have missed that. What did she say?

----------


## G-Potion

> Veronica too? I must have missed that. What did she say?


Not anything particular but she was every eager to color when Soy posted some of his Jason art. She also retweets RHATO fanarts as well.

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## G-Potion

http://mayhw.tumblr.com/post/117803914741

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## G-Potion



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## G-Potion



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## Zaresh

> https://comicbookconvos.blogspot.com...-7-taylor.html
> 
> Here's an interview with the RHATO Letterer Taylor Esposito.
> 
> It mainly focuses on the difficulties with lettering, the misconceptions and some advice for anyone wanting to pursue the career.
> 
> Plus here's a nice snippet.
> 
> 
> ...


I knew it! One only can tell how much he likes the book by how he works his lettering; there are lots of little nice things and touches here and there all across the run. Or even out of it, like that one with the water and pup pup that didn't make it.

I hope this team lasts long: everyone seems to enjoy working on RHatO..

----------


## Zaresh

> Judd Winick isn't on the team though. Though, I'd say that he enjoyed the character as well, considering his work on UTH, Lost Days and the several guest appearances he gave Jason in other books.


I would say Winnick still loves the character much.

Hah, looking at the fanarts, it seems the hoody sweat and the cup was well liked by fans.

----------


## G-Potion

> I would say Winnick still loves the character much.


He certainly does.



By the way we might have some funko Red Hood news at SDCC.






> Hah, looking at the fanarts, it seems the hoody sweat and the cup was well liked by fans.


The hat is like the new bucket. Gaining fanarts steadily.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> By the way we might have sme funko Red Hood news at SDCC.


All my YES! Will buy most certainly. Now, I just need an official Moon Knight Funko to buy as well (because I think there isn't one yet).

----------


## magpieM

Hope the entire RHATO team can have an interview together one day...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Winnick likes Jason but for him, Red Hood is and can only be a villain.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Winnick likes Jason but for him, Red Hood is and can only be a villain.


So do you know what was Judd Winick's proposal for Jason in the New 52?

----------


## RedBird

> What about Judd Winick the man who brought Jason back to life?


Now fair warning this is just how I felt about the way Winick writes and approaches the character, I don't have any particular _objective_ evidence to my idea, and it is possible that the man feels differently as the years have passed. But.

I always got the impression that Winick liked writing for Jason, but only because of the witty and 'villainy' voice he got to create and use for the character. He seems to like him enough, but only as a villain and an irritating thorn in Batmans vision for justice, but not nearly in the way that a lot of old school fans like the character, and hell not even in the way new fans liked the character as a morally grey but still interesting and understandable anti-hero (I'm pretty sure Winick expressed surprise when people had liked and even agreed with Jasons stance). 

His return doesn't seem to be out of a love for the old dead Robin, there's no implication that Winick revived the character to give him a more fairer or second chance, or even to make him a long term antihero/villian. He revived him for a one off story line and had planned to kill him once again by the end, in what would have been a more edgy and twisted tale to the end of Jason Todd. First to be killed off by the Bats enemy and then returning fueled by crazed vengeance to be then offed by the Bat himself, in what would have ended as a way of adding even more angst to Bruces failure of Jasons life, and would have made Jasons death even more a product of his own creation. Adding more fuel to idea that his deaths (both of them, if it had gone through) was his own fault. Not that he ever WAS responsible for his own death, but that's certainly the road DC wanted to create in order to save face after DITF.

I think Winick enjoys the villain he created, but doesn't really have plans to progress Jasons development as a character beyond that, and as much as I adore Winicks voice for Jason, this sadly wasn't really ever a 'Ed Brubaker reviving Bucky Barnes' scenario, a case where a writer wanted to do their favorite character some justice to 'fix' what they felt was a lost opportunity with a great character. This was Winick basically turning to other writers and editors like 'hey you know what would be f'd up? If we brought back Jason Todd, but like, made him evil.'

----------


## G-Potion

> Now fair warning this is just how I felt about the way Winick writes and approaches the character, I don't have any particular _objective_ evidence to my idea, and it is possible that the man feels differently as the years have passed. But.
> 
> I always got the impression that Winick liked writing for Jason, but only because of the witty and 'villainy' voice he got to create and use for the character. He seems to like him enough, but only as a villain and an irritating thorn in Batmans vision for justice, but not nearly in the way that a lot of old school fans like the character, and hell not even in the way new fans liked the character as a morally grey but still interesting and understandable anti-hero (I'm pretty sure Winick expressed surprise when people had liked and even agreed with Jasons stance). 
> 
> His return doesn't seem to be out of a love for the old dead Robin, there's no implication that Winick revived the character to give him a more fairer or second chance, or even to make him a long term antihero/villian. He revived him for a one off story line and had planned to kill him once again by the end, in what would have been a more edgy and twisted tale to the end of Jason Todd. First to be killed off by the Bats enemy and then returning fueled by crazed vengeance to be then offed by the Bat himself, in what would have ended as a way of adding even more angst to Bruces failure of Jasons life, and would have made Jasons death even more a product of his own creation. Adding more fuel to idea that his deaths (both of them, if it had gone through) was his own fault. Not that he ever WAS responsible for his own death, but that's certainly the road DC wanted to create in order to save face after DITF.
> 
> I think Winick enjoys the villain he created, but doesn't really have plans to progress Jasons development as a character beyond that, and as much as I adore Winicks voice for Jason, this sadly wasn't really ever a 'Ed Brubaker reviving Bucky Barnes' scenario, a case where a writer wanted to do their favorite character some justice to 'fix' what they felt was a lost opportunity with a great character. This was Winick basically turning to other writers and editors like 'hey you know what would be f'd up? If we brought back Jason Todd, but like, made him evil.'


Well said. That's definitely the impression that he gave from his interviews. However, do you think his view changed a tiny bit by the last time he wrote Jason in the B&R issue where he rescued Scarlet? He's still a villain, but his focus was for once about protecting someone and not on his own issue.

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## G-Potion

firefly2015.lofter.com

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So do you know what was Judd Winick's proposal for Jason in the New 52?


It was pretty much what everyone accused N52 RHATO to be: violent, edgy, grim.

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## Zaresh

The funny thing is that, if I remember correctly, he really wrote him as rather more sympathetic than Bruce in both the scripts he wrote for Under the Hood and its movie, even if he didn't intent to. I mean; it usually happens with well written anti-villains, but in this case, it's not even hard to understand or even sympathise with him on some of his points. I know this happens even with more renowned writers--Moore's Rorschach, even if not a villain himself, is not mean to be sympathetic at all, but even so, a lot of readers do sympathize with him.

But in this case, I would think it's easier to understand how; because, well, Bruce was honestly the coldest, distant, unfeeling person ever and seemed to not even try to understand how this come to happen and how psychotic Jason could feel so betrayed and forgotten, and put such awful plans and actions to work; the reasons behind. We are supposed to see the whole story more by Bruce's eyes, but we have more emotional feedback from Jason's POV, and that way it's way easier to take a part in the conflict, or at least, be more understanding for his part. Whereas for Bruce we get, what? Him feeling guilty and responsible for Jason's behaviour and death? And I may be misremembering because I have the movie fresher, but that thing about calling him a soldier is all sorts of messed up and one of the reasons I dislike modern Batman. Robins are kids, partners and even sons/brothers, or supposed to be. You really have to remember the kid who turned mad as a soldier? Really? Agh! I hate modern Batman. I think I would take TAS Batman, 80's Batman or even Tim Burton's Batman any day before what we ended with; who appears to be someone absurdly manipulative who seems to only feel and show ocasional rage or depression and seems to care for others in a very twisted and cold way, if he does care at all--like with Selina now, with Damian before and so on. One at a time!

/rant

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## RedBird

> Well said. That's definitely the impression that he gave from his interviews. However, do you think his view changed a tiny bit by the last time he wrote Jason in the B&R issue where he rescued Scarlet? He's still a villain, but his focus was for once about protecting someone and not on his own issue.


Not sure, perhaps after a while even he felt a little miffed that people were taking the character in a lot of wild scenarios and developments. I mean, as I said he likes Jason at least as a villian, he shaped the character and his ideas behind Jasons personality and morals was always pretty solid even if he personally felt that they didn't make Jason a redeemable character but just an interesting one. He kinda laughs off Morrisons interpretation when asked about it but I never got the implication that he ever really liked it, and considering how starkly different he made Jasons approach to Scarlet in his own B&R, from basically a product of child grooming an abused girl to protecting a victim that Jason then intended to (as the ending of that arc implied) let go and have a free life, I think then it's easier to see that he didn't share Morrisons vision for the character as _just_ a foil for Dick Grayson. 

Now this point is admittedly one I'm not 100% on, but I seem to recall some rumors that he even had tried to throw around a few ideas to get rid of the whole 'red head' retcon that Morrison did, thereby getting rid of Morrisons Jason entirely. I think it had something to do with implying that the REAL Jason was still lost in another world when Countdown was going on and a FAKE one took his place the last few years. That sure would have saved us from a lot of crappy interpretations of his character like Morrisons B&R and BFTC. I think due to time constraints that story wasn't possible and Winick just had to make do. If there's anyone that can attest to that story please let me know.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It was pretty much what everyone accused N52 RHATO to be: violent, edgy, grim.


But they didn't go with how fortunate and odd considering the New 52's generally grim tone.

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## RedBird

> But in this case, I would think it's easier to understand how; because, well, Bruce was honestly the coldest, distant, unfeeling person ever and seemed to not even try to understand how this come to happen and how psychotic Jason could feel so betrayed and forgotten, and put such awful plans and actions to work; the reasons behind. We are supposed to see the whole story more by Bruce's eyes, but we have more emotional feedback from Jason's POV, and that way it's way easier to take a part in the conflict, or at least, be more understanding for his part. Whereas for Bruce we get, what? Him feeling guilty and responsible for Jason's behaviour and death? And I may be misremembering because I have the movie fresher, but that thing about calling him a soldier is all sorts of messed up and one of the reasons I dislike modern Batman. 
> 
> /rant


I think DC writers and editors at the time and even now, bank too much on the audience siding with Bruce by default, so much so that their regression and negative character development for him is now so ingrained and has become problematic when telling a story that requires Bruce to be sympathetic, compassionate and humane. I mean, UTRH is a greek tragedy between a father and son, the driving force behind the story should be in the emotional punches. The fact that both characters feel a sense of loss, betrayal but ultimately love for one another. We get all that from Jason, but Bruce? The story there mainly focuses on his guilt and not something like, 'holy shit, the son that I mourned for is back, I have to help him no matter what'.

Even for as short as its emotional and story driven moments were, I think Arkham Knight displayed the slightly more human scenario that each character would face in this circumstance. In the final fight between the two, Bruce extends a hand, even when Jason threatens him with a gun. He doesn't falter like in the film or comic, he keeps his hand raised, a promise to help Jason no matter what. In the scene where Jason confronts Babs, like how most of Jasons confrontations with the family pre52 have gone, she is appalled by his actions BUT unlike those comic counterparts, it seems she actually wants to understand and even pleads with him to stop and just come home. The implication that he would be welcomed back and that he was missed in the first place by everyone. Like yeah, that sounds more like how people treat a 'sick' and lost family wouldn't you say? Pleading for intervention but also showing support. 

I don't recall Bruce ever describing Jason as 'a failure', or implying he got what was coming to him, he even seems still shaken by the event still, if his hallucinations and accidental (and apparently common) slip up of calling Tim, 'Jason' are to mean anything. Hell towards the very end, when Bruce is being taken to scarecrow, Alfred messages him stating that he is being followed by a third party, to which Bruce states something along the lines of 'I knew he would come'. We find out later that that third party was in fact Jason by way of him saving Bruce and also if you notice, spray painting a red bat on the outside of scarecrows building before Bruce enters. Again, there's the implication of Bruces love for Jason, the fact that he still had faith in the boy till the bitter end. That love and faith which is then returned when Jason stops his plans and saves Bruce.

Whew, sorry I didn't mean to turn that into a AK vs DC rant, AK isn't perfect but it does show what you could have achieved in such a emotionally driven story line when you don't have a messy editorial, cheaps stunts, or an insistent need to make your titular character cruel through traumatic events to keep your story down. As much as I enjoy UTRH, DC really dropped the ball on that one, in the case of long term development.

----------


## EMarie

Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.

Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?

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## G-Potion

> Now this point is admittedly one I'm not 100% on, but I seem to recall some rumors that he even had tried to throw around a few ideas to get rid of the whole 'red head' retcon that Morrison did, thereby getting rid of Morrisons Jason entirely. I think it had something to do with implying that the REAL Jason was still lost in another world when Countdown was going on and a FAKE one took his place the last few years. That sure would have saved us from a lot of crappy interpretations of his character like Morrisons B&R and BFTC. I think due to time constraints that story wasn't possible and Winick just had to make do. If there's anyone that can attest to that story please let me know.


Wow... what could have been. But, I have no regret that the reboot happened instead of this. Despite the reception N52 RHATO got, it built a solid foundation to develop Jason to this point. In a lot of ways, Jason was one of the characters that got the most out of those years.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think DC writers and editors at the time and even now, bank too much on the audience siding with Bruce by default, so much so that their regression and negative character development for him is now so ingrained and has become problematic when telling a story that requires Bruce to be sympathetic, compassionate and humane. I mean, UTRD is a greek tragedy with a between a father and son, the driving force behind the story should be in the emotional punches. The fact that both characters feel a sense of loss, betrayal but ultimately love for one another. We get all that from Jason, but Bruce? The story there mainly focuses on his guilt and not something like, 'holy shit, the son that I mourned for is back, I have to help him no matter what'.


AK really did better in that regard. If there's an adaptation of UTRH on the big screen someday, I hope they manage to balance this aspect.

----------


## G-Potion

> Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.
> 
> Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?


I can't believe Bruce. In a way, he just came back to life himself, and he couldn't speak more than a few words to Jason. Also looking stone cold the whole way through that conversation. I feel robbed that we didn't see how he managed to talk Jason into being Wingman.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.
> 
> Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?


Pretty much this. 

Winnick was sincerely baffled at Jason's popularity and during his last stories with him he approached from the "Villains are cool, right?" angle.

The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison  along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.

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## G-Potion

> The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison  along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.


The also amusing thing is for some people Lobdell was the worst thing to happen to Jason. Certainly Rebirth has quieted those voices down a bit.

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## Zaresh

*@RedBird*, yep, those games did a good work balancing the emotional approach, impact and potential. But it is one of the strong points of the Arkham games, I think; their psychological approach on the characters. Which is funy, because those games tend to be even more dark and gritty than the current DCU Batman, I think.

----------


## RedBird

> *@RedBird*, yep, those games did a good work balancing the emotional approach, impact and potential. But it is one of the strong points of the Arkham games, I think; their psychological approach on the characters. *Which is funy, because those games tend to be even more dark and gritty than the current DCU Batman, I think.*


I agree, and that's just the thing, the games and the old BTAS *are* dark and gritty mainly because of the *world* that Batman exists in and the *themes* that are tackled within them. The world and the people around Batman/Bruce are dark, violent, dangerous and tend to encase a lot of psychological issues as well as more adult/taboo themes. Plus they (the writers tackling these themes) often do so with the knowledge that what they are displaying and handling IS dark and heavy, its not just to appear 'edgy'. (eg: AK torture scenes - child torture)

At times during dcu comics, that sense of self awareness of either the narratives weighty themes or of Bruce Wayne himself is warped by the need to be 'shocking', to justify Bruce becoming a more imposing threat to his villains, or even to display Bruce as being as big of a monster as the villains he fights. But often in the effort to do so, these interpretations contain little or none of the self awareness Bruce Wayne has of himself as Batman, and also loses the sense of humility he has and the altruistic reasons for what he does, as well as his compassion for others and willingness to show it.

Outside of a few stumbling moments in his development, (bumps in the road) and as the AA games, BTAS and some comics have shown, (main canon) Bruce should _remain_ a beacon, or rather a force that never allows himself to be consumed by that darkness. A man who doesn't lose his humanity no matter what life throws at him. THATS Bruce. I can understand Bruce closing himself off in some ways due to fear, as was shown in AK and even after situations like Jasons death in the comics, that's logical to his character, that displays a vulnerability and makes him human. But I can't understand the bad dcu's interpretation which basically uses the horrible situations around Bruce as an excuse to not only wear Bruces humanity and compassion down, but make him as ugly, robotic, cold and uncaring as the world around him.

----------


## Zaresh

Damn, *@RedBird*! You stole my thoughts and put them in order with clear words.

I liked TAS and Beyond Bruce a lot; he was balanced. He was calm and silent and serious, and still had a bit of a temper and was cunning and proud. But he also was caring, and was compassionate and had a sense of humour that wasn't cruel (most of the time). He was a hero I wouldn't mind to come across with (if comics were real, heh). That take on Batman wasn't my introduction to it (I loved the Burton movies when I was like 7 or so, and I still like them, true being told), but it definitely was the version I loved the most and how I understand some of the characters. Because I live in a medium-small town and publishing history for DC in my country was a bit of a mess (apparently), I didn't get to read their comics (barring Vertigo) until way after the 90's had ended. And then, when I went to read current comics, found how much I disliked Batman himself most of the time: what a let down. I also read older stuff, and liked it more, so... (this is how I ended up reading Waid's Flash, which also has become one of my favourite reads. Internet and libraries are such great inventions--said the librarian).

Also, TAS and Beyond had great art style and music; it's a winner all the way for me.

----------


## EMarie

> Pretty much this. 
> 
> Winnick was sincerely baffled at Jason's popularity and during his last stories with him he approached from the "Villains are cool, right?" angle.
> 
> The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison  along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.


He really was baffled. It didn't seem to occur to him or DC that people liked Jason's humanity. It's pretty clear in his interviews that he just saw Jason as a villain.

Thanks for the information, that's a great story that makes me glad he pitched his own idea. I actually get the feeling Lobdell not only gets Jason's layers but also cares about the character.




> The also amusing thing is for some people Lobdell was the worst thing to happen to Jason. Certainly Rebirth has quieted those voices down a bit.


I never got why people thought this. Say what you want about the first series but Jason's development was great. Lobdell has gone into things with the character no one ever has. New 52 was notorious for editorial problems Lobdell only mentioned one so far. At least that I'm aware of. He said how they wanted him to wrap up the Untitled plot instead of letting them be an ongoing threat. Which explains why the Crux plot he previously mentioned was suddenly dropped in the arc and Essence pops up to be revealed as the murderer.

He also said they tried to end the plot with Tynion which explains some of the lackluster wrap up for them but also makes Jason look like a bad detective in the process.

----------


## G-Potion

> I never got why people thought this. Say what you want about the first series but Jason's development was great. Lobdell has gone into things with the character no one ever has. New 52 was notorious for editorial problems Lobdell only mentioned one so far. At least that I'm aware of. He said how they wanted him to wrap up the Untitled plot instead of letting them be an ongoing threat. Which explains why the Crux plot he previously mentioned was suddenly dropped in the arc and Essence pops up to be revealed as the murderer.
> 
> He also said they tried to end the plot with Tynion which explains some of the lackluster wrap up for them but also makes Jason look like a bad detective in the process.


Still salty about Essence and the Untitled. Was the best thing given to expand Jason's backstory, and there was still much story-telling potential.

Which is why I'm glad that Lobdell's allowed to play the long term game and juggle different plot threads now. Sure it makes some arcs a bit too long, but I think about the solicit for #23 and I have a feeling that it's gonna be very gratifying too see all the seeds he's sown come to fruition.

----------


## G-Potion

> He really was baffled. It didn't seem to occur to him or DC that people liked Jason's humanity. It's pretty clear in his interviews that he just saw Jason as a villain.
> 
> Thanks for the information, that's a great story that makes me glad he pitched his own idea. I actually get the feeling Lobdell not only gets Jason's layers but also cares about the character.


I'd love to ask him if he started caring about the character after he'd made that pitch or it was way before that, and what his thought on the practice at DC during and after DITF, where it concerned Jason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison  along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.


Do you have any idea at all exactly what it was that Winnick pitched? I'd be curious to know what it was although by the time the N52 rolled around I was really sick of the whole "psychotic killer with daddy issues" version of Jason that was prevalent at the time. Whatever the pitch was though I am so glad that DC went with Lobdell's pitch instead. I think he's really the only one that actually understands Jason and all his layers. 




> Still salty about Essence and the Untitled. Was the best thing given to expand Jason's backstory, and there was still much story-telling potential.
> 
> Which is why I'm glad that Lobdell's allowed to play the long term game and juggle different plot threats now. Sure it makes some arcs a bit too long, but I think about the solicit for #23 and I have a feeling that it's gonna be very gratifying too see all the seeds he's sown come to fruition.


I'm still salty about that as well. I would have liked to have seen how Lobdell would have brought that story to a conclusion rather than the lackluster conclusion we ended up with. I image it would have been a lot more nuanced and interesting than Tynion's extremely poor attempt was. 

I'm glad they are seemingly letting Lobdell pay the long game here now though and I am really looking forward to seeing those seeds he's planted come to fruition, especially the ones regarding his father and those letters. 




> I'd love to ask him if he started caring about the character after he'd made that pitch or it was way before that, and what his thought on the practice at DC during and after DITF, where it concerned Jason.


I'd love to ask him all of that too. I'm going to guess based on the way he writes Jason though that he disagrees with the things DC did both with DITF and the victim blaming that went on afterwards.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I only know that Winnick's pitch had Jason and Roy burning some drug dealers alive at some point.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I only know that Winnick's pitch had Jason and Roy burning some drug dealers alive at some point.


That's extreme and would not help with jason's then poor reception after writers chose to mischaracterise him.

----------


## magpieM

I do remember reading an interview in which Winick mentioned something like _when writing a story you need to know when the story should stop..._ or some comments about RH like that.

No one can predict whether a story/character can give expected feedback as writer's wish. UTRH was a short, tightly packed story but also contained huge amount of emotional conflict. It looked like a typical superhero animation movie, but the things between Bruce and Jason were far beyond love/betrayal or "greek tragedy". It also involved (sibling) rivals, fitting in a perfect (career) model, what you really are and what you see in yourself in the future, whether your efforts got recognized or paid off from people you care about the most, world of view conflicts (like what you think about Batman's way? What's the role of difference in social classes in the story? How do you think justice needs to be done?...) It threw those questions in your face and hit people's feelings in so many ways, unexpectedly.

Winick didn't realize that when he created this character. But he and other DC writers/editors failed to see it, either, even after they saw the growing popularity of this character. It's really funny. Those guys were supposed to be the 'experts' in the industry to immediately catch people's reactions. But they were asking _why...  they think villains are cool?_

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I do remember reading an interview in which Winnick mentioned something like _when writing a story you need to know when the story should stop..._ or some comments about RH like that.
> 
> No one can predict whether a story/character can give expected feedback as writer's wish. UTRH was a short, tightly packed story but also contained huge amount of emotional conflict. It looked like a typical superhero animation movie, but the things between Bruce and Jason were way beyond love/betrayal or "greek tragedy". It also involved (sibling) rivals, fitting in a perfect (career) model, what you really are and what you see in yourself in the future, whether your efforts got recognized or paid off from people you care about most, world of view conflicts (like what you think about Batman's way? What's the role of difference in social classes in the story? How do you think justice needs to be done?...) It threw those questions in your face and hit people's feelings in so many ways, unexpectedly .
> 
> Winnick didn't realize that. Other DC writers/editors failed to see it, either, even after they saw the growing popularity of this character. It's really funny. Those guys were supposed to be the 'experts' in the industry to immediately catch people's reactions. But they were asking _why...  they think villains are cool?_


To be fair sometimes it's hard to even know what ideas are lightning in the bottle Spider-Man is an example of that then publisher Martin Goodman had so little faith in Spdier-man that his first story was in a dying magazine. And the Goodman saw the sales figures. And Jason was supposed to die again after Under the Hood.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Winnick always intended Jason to be a one off thing, yeah. And that is why he lacked a consistent characterization until the N52. At some point the editorial mandate was "Turning him into a villain" thank god that didn't stick.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I only know that Winnick's pitch had Jason and Roy burning some drug dealers alive at some point.


So more of the same old psycho killer nonsense only with Roy added. That would have done nothing for either of those two characters at that time IMHO so again I'm glad that bullet was dodged.

----------


## G-Potion

Jay's favorite food and... Roy?

----------


## RedBird

> Jay's favorite food and... Roy?


Omg, is that really a chillidog reference  :Big Grin: 
I remember commenting just a couple months ago how much I would love even just a quick callback.

Also. Roys? Either it was really just a random name on Soys part, or it almost feels like an innuendo. Ha

----------


## kiwiliko

> Omg, is that really a chillidog reference 
> I remember commenting just a couple months ago how much I would love even just a quick callback.
> 
> Also. Roys? Either it was really just a random name on Soys part, or it almost feels like an innuendo. Ha


I'm sad it took me this long to get it but I gigglesnorted as soon as it clicked  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Heeey @kiwi!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## kiwiliko

Heeyyy @G
Guess who back from midterms haha

----------


## kiwiliko

Woh I missed some stuff but this is delightful to know apparently the whole team enjoys Jason too.

----------


## Alycat

I talked about this a little in Nightwing threads, but what makes Jason so interesting and fun to read is that he is allowed to grow and change as a character without being held back by nostalgia or what editorial seems to think he should be. I wish the rest of the bat boys were as lucky.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Jay's favorite food and... Roy?


Chilli dog reference? YES! That has just made my day. This team is really the best creative team out there. 





> I'm sad it took me this long to get it but I gigglesnorted as soon as it clicked


Welcome back kiwi. Glad to see you back again. 




> I talked about this a little in Nightwing threads, but what makes Jason so interesting and fun to read is that he is allowed to grow and change as a character without being held back by nostalgia or what editorial seems to think he should be. I wish the rest of the bat boys were as lucky.


That's probably the one good thing about Jason being killed off by a fan poll and having be directionless for years after his return.  :Stick Out Tongue:  There's not the years worth of nostalgia to hold him back like there is with everyone else and that gives Lobdell a bit more freedom to take him in any direction he wants. I mean there are the fans that want the "killer without remorse" type of Jason back and there are plenty of people who still think that Jason was a "bad" Robin but its nothing like what happens with Dick most of the time. He gets a few bright spots here and there but then fans complain and he ends up right back in the same hole he just crawled out of.

----------


## G-Potion

> I talked about this a little in Nightwing threads, but what makes Jason so interesting and fun to read is that he is allowed to grow and change as a character without being held back by nostalgia or what editorial seems to think he should be. I wish the rest of the bat boys were as lucky.


For me Jason as a character has been one that writers take more risks with, compared to others. They've been throwing all crazy stuff at him since forever. When it goes right, it's high reward indeed. On the downside, DC/editorial doesn't seem to appreciate his development and potential so he's received minimal push compared to the other robins. But of course, I'd take quality writing over anything.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The new Jacket added on IJ2 is pretty cool

https://imgur.com/a/opKsr

----------


## Aahz

> The new Jacket added on IJ2 is pretty cool
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/opKsr


The one seems really nice. The logo is intersting its looks like a cross between the logo of the Arkham Knight Red Hood and the Batlogo he has in the comics.

Btw. does he get a new Epic gear set or just some some new gear.

The new Shaders are nor that great

----------


## G-Potion

> The new Jacket added on IJ2 is pretty cool
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/opKsr


But have you seen the new helmet?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## magpieM

> But have you seen the new helmet?


I think... I saw 'Ma Gunn' in the name?!

----------


## EMarie

> For me Jason as a character has been one that writers take more risks with, compared to others. They've been throwing all crazy stuff at him since forever. When it goes right, it's high reward indeed. On the downside, DC/editorial doesn't seem to appreciate his development and potential so he's received minimal push compared to the other robins. But of course, I'd take quality writing over anything.


True. He's also been fortunate to miss the 90's hair which Dick got with a vengeance.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> True. He's also been fortunate to miss the 90's hair which Dick got with a vengeance.


I'm glad he missed out on the 90s hair.

----------


## Alycat

> That's probably the one good thing about Jason being killed off by a fan poll and having be directionless for years after his return.  There's not the years worth of nostalgia to hold him back like there is with everyone else and that gives Lobdell a bit more freedom to take him in any direction he wants. I mean there are the fans that want the "killer without remorse" type of Jason back and there are plenty of people who still think that Jason was a "bad" Robin but its nothing like what happens with Dick most of the time. He gets a few bright spots here and there but then fans complain and he ends up right back in the same hole he just crawled out of.





> For me Jason as a character has been one that writers take more risks with, compared to others. They've been throwing all crazy stuff at him since forever. When it goes right, it's high reward indeed. On the downside, DC/editorial doesn't seem to appreciate his development and potential so he's received minimal push compared to the other robins. But of course, I'd take quality writing over anything.


I agree with you both. Yeah there are downsides to it ( although everyone seems to suffer with the Batfamily cross overs), but man Id rather take those as long as we get what we have Jason now instead of being bitter that editorial won't move on from the 90's or whatever.

----------


## Aahz

> But have you seen the new helmet?



You mean this one? 



Thats probably the ugliest helmet he had sofar.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> For me Jason as a character has been one that writers take more risks with, compared to others. They've been throwing all crazy stuff at him since forever. When it goes right, it's high reward indeed. On the downside, DC/editorial doesn't seem to appreciate his development and potential so he's received minimal push compared to the other robins. But of course, I'd take quality writing over anything.


Well in regards to Jason it works but for other established characters risky moves are more dangerous if  not done right can you imagine if DC decided to make Nightwing a member of the Sinestro Corp?

----------


## G-Potion

> You mean this one? 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats probably the ugliest helmet he had sofar.


Yep. But funnily enough, I could totally see Jason gleefully wearing it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well in regards to Jason it works but for other established characters risky moves are more dangerous if  not done right can you imagine if DC decided to make Nightwing a member of the Sinestro Corp?


Who knows, provided that there's a logical procedure for that decision, it could totally get Nightwing out of his stagnant state. You can't go risky and safe at the same time.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Who knows, provided that there's a logical procedure for that decision, it could totally get Nightwing out of his stagnant state. You can't go risky and safe at the same time.


That's true but if Nightwing is selling well through workman stories the kind from the Jim Shooter era of Marvel then maybe there's nothing wrong with Nightwing. Giving Jason a Sinestro Ring would make better sense than Nightwing. Or even a Red Lantern Ring. Either way if Nightwing is stagnant perhaps maybe one should consider finding a way to revive Grayson which I heard from TV Tropes and Idiom gave him a new purpose. Maybe have Dick work with the Birds of Prey this time instead of Spyral.

----------


## Aioros22

Nigthwing's current direction is being heavily discussed from lacking any, thought.

----------


## Zaresh

> I agree with you both. Yeah there are downsides to it ( although everyone seems to suffer with the Batfamily cross overs), but man Id rather take those as long as we get what we have Jason now instead of being bitter that editorial won't move on from the 90's or whatever.


Yes, I agree too. A pity that you people say that Dick fans are so nuts about changes. One of the first books I read once I started diggin deep into main DCU comics was Grayson, and it really was a pleasant and fun read. Was it badly received? I think it was, I kind of remember it being a disliked change? Which is a pity, because spy adventures are always fun; they can throw the character into a lot of new and varied situations, and it also added nice things to his background (though fanfic writers tend to like the talon heritage stuff way more, it seems. Don't get me wrong; that's cool too, but eh, not much potential but for the edginess that the character shouldn't dwell in too much, and also a dramatic trick that gets old too soon).

It's like how I think that it's sad that some fans dislike the all-caste stuff with Jason that Lobdell added; that stuff can add a new set of situations into Jason's usual routine of crime fighting, and it's not like there are a lot of currently active mixed mystical-and-ordinary street level crime fighting warriors in DC (unlike in Marvel, funny enough). Also, the blades are cool and I'll fight anyone who says they're not. Jason is very pulpy, and it fits him (but, er, I love pulp fiction). I agree with G-Pots too; one of the nice things about Jason is that you can throw him into the most risky narratives (detective suspense stories, evil ancient conspiracy plots, space adventures, multiversal quests and lovecraftian stories, even, I bet) and see what happens because he's not tied to anything yet. And to be honest, as an amateur writer myself, I love to put my characters in totally new settings and see what happens. It helps give said characters a development, it lets then learn and change and also mess up. And as a reader, I love that. But apparently, more people like to read the same story, read inside the already known and comfortable limits that they already know of, and want their characters to stay as they were when they discover that they liked them. Nothing wrong with that itself either, but for that, you can always reread your favorite stories. Reading new stories that basically tell the same is quite boring, in my humble opinion. Making fresh stories with those limitations is harsh; I don't envy those writers that have to work with them.

Off topic now. I finished my Batman and Robin fan art. It's not Jason himself; it's a composed Robin, but I was wondering if you guys would like to see it. May I post it?

----------


## Zaresh

> That's true but if Nightwing is selling well through workman stories the kind from the Jim Shooter era of Marvel then maybe there's nothing wrong with Nightwing. Giving Jason a Sinestro Ring would make better sense than Nightwing. Or even a Red Lantern Ring. Either way if Nightwing is stagnant perhaps maybe one should consider finding a way to revive Grayson which I heard from TV Tropes and Idiom gave him a new purpose. Maybe have Dick work with the Birds of Prey this time instead of Spyral.


Dick is either green or blue though. Same as Jason is truly green (absolutely will driven), even if you could put him a Sapphire ring too (because everything he does, he does because of Love or the lack of). Rage itself isn't very prominent in Jason's personality; it's just one way how he vents his problems through, a very powerful one but not the only. He's not rage driven.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Dick is either green or blue though. Same as Jason is truly green (absolutely will driven), even if you could put him a Sapphire ring too (because everything he does, he does because of Love or the lack of). Rage itself isn't very prominent in Jason's personality; it's just one way how he vents his problems through, a very powerful one but not the only. He's not rage driven.


Star Sapphires forcefully convert their followers and Jason would not like that. And sure green works better for Jason but cna you imagine if he was given an indigo ring?

----------


## Zaresh

> Star Sapphires forcefully convert their followers and Jason would not like that. And sure green works better for Jason but cna you imagine if he was given an indigo ring?


Wait. Aren't the Indigo (compassion) tropes the ones that forcefully convert their members (converted psychopaths)? Not the Star Sapphire (pink) ones?

----------


## Aahz

> Either way if Nightwing is stagnant perhaps maybe one should consider finding a way to revive Grayson which I heard from TV Tropes and Idiom gave him a new purpose.


The thing with Grayson is that that thing was never meant to last, since Dicks goal was mostly to discover what was going on in Spyral and take it apart. And they actually never really did a really big (James Bond type) spy story in that series.

----------


## G-Potion

> Off topic now. I finished my Batman and Robin fan art. It's not Jason himself; it's a composed Robin, but I was wondering if you guys would like to see it. May I post it?


@Zaresh: Do show please! Is it the one your avatar is cropped from?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> @Zaresh: Do show please! Is it the one your avatar is cropped from?


Yep, but my avatar is from when I took a photo at the still then unfinished work. I was working under warm light when I took it--that's why is more yellow-ish.
Here it is:

Link to Tumblr in case you want it


I also uploaded to my insta a set of close ups for certain sections:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BgpuN52hwnl/?hl=es

----------


## AJpyro

> Wait. Aren't the Indigo (compassion) tropes the ones that forcefully convert their members (converted psychopaths)? Not the Star Sapphire (pink) ones?


Both do. Sapphires go Yandere and Indigo is brainwashing servants of good(kinda like the mind death from Babylon 5).

----------


## Zaresh

> Both do. Sapphires go Yandere and Indigo is brainwashing servants of good(kinda like the mind death from Babylon 5).


Oh, I see. I guess it's not fair then, giving him that ring.
(Babylon 5, freaking good TV show, btw)

----------


## G-Potion

> Yep, but my avatar is from when I took a photo at the still then unfinished work. I was working under warm light when I took it, by the way--that's why is more yellow-ish.
> Here it is:
> 
> Link to Tumblr in case you want it
> 
> 
> I also uploaded to my insta a set of close ups for certain sections:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BgpuN52hwnl/?hl=es


Nice!! Love the warm light illuminating Robin and the idea that he's the light in Bruce's life and his crusade. The little details are pretty neat as well. Is that a Two-face toy? And the mini Joker/Harley/Scarecrow are so darn cute. I love how you positioned the cat as well; it provides more dimentional variety to the piece. The birds look awesome as well!  :Big Grin:

----------


## KC93

> Yep, but my avatar is from when I took a photo at the still then unfinished work. I was working under warm light when I took it--that's why is more yellow-ish.
> Here it is:
> 
> Link to Tumblr in case you want it
> 
> 
> I also uploaded to my insta a set of close ups for certain sections:
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BgpuN52hwnl/?hl=es


Your work is amazing, I love the nods to Batman's rogue gallery like the little joker, harley and scarecrow. The Riddler cane and two-face toy are also a nice touch.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Nice!! Love the warm light illuminating Robin and the idea that he's the light in Bruce's life and his crusade. The little details are pretty neat as well. Is that a Two-face toy? And the mini Joker/Harley/Scarecrow are so darn cute. I love how you positioned the cat as well; it provides more dimentional variety to the piece. The birds look awesome as well!





> Your work is amazing, I love the nods to Batman's rogue gallery like the little joker, harley and scarecrow. The Riddler cane and two-face toy are also a nice touch.


Thanks for the nice words! I put quite a thought into the drawing, where to place every element; so it means a lot if it's appreciated. Yes, that's a toy-like tiny Two Face. I wanted to add Penguin too, but didn't know where or how, so I discarded him. The hardest was to figure out how to work with the lighting, to be honest, because I didn't want the thing to be "realistic" (because the original work is based on and because I'm not good enough to paint the lighting rightly) but also didn't want it to be to arbitrary. This is a half-way attempt that I think fits well.

By the way, I got the idea from this etching from Francisco de Goya, one of my favourite painters: The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The thing with Grayson is that that thing was never meant to last, since Dicks goal was mostly to discover what was going on in Spyral and take it apart. And they actually never really did a really big (James Bond type) spy story in that series.


Well Seeley tried to find a compromise by having Dick go on globe trotting adventures and defend Bludhaven. Maybe Seeley should have stayed around to continue it?

----------


## Savatewolf

Alright, I'm at wondercon and I'm gonna see if I can catch Batman: Ninja. Hopefully they do our boy good.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Alright, I'm at wondercon and I'm gonna see if I can catch Batman: Ninja. Hopefully they do our boy good.


Have fun and here's hoping that they do.

----------


## Aahz

> Well Seeley tried to find a compromise by having Dick go on globe trotting adventures and defend Bludhaven. Maybe Seeley should have stayed around to continue it?


I don't think that you really need Seeley to continue this compromise. And imo it is more important that a story is good than if it is placed in Blüdhaven or somewhere else. I might be the minority but I enjoyed the Rebirth Nightwing more than Grayson.

And it is imo really important that the writers keep building on the previous runs and using the established support cast, instead ignoring everything and doing their own thing.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think that you really need Seeley to continue this compromise. And imo it is more important that a story is good than if it is placed in Blüdhaven or somewhere else. I might be the minority but I enjoyed the Rebirth Nightwing more than Grayson.
> 
> And it is imo really important that the writers keep building on the previous runs and using the established support cast, instead ignoring everything and doing their own thing.


Hey it could have placated those guys who think Nightwing was being stale by going back to Bludhaven. Funny thing is I enjoy Grayson and Nightwing Rebirth equally. Well whose to say that Benjamin Percy won't use the established supporting cast? He might surprise us.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't want to get my hopes up but Titans is getting relaunched and the new line up doesn't includes Roy. Add Lobdell's comments about issue 24 and well...it could be?

----------


## Savatewolf

Batman: Ninja ended

No spoilers from me, but it was dumb but fun. Tons of stuff doesn't make sense but it's clearly there because that's what the creators enjoy and they know it's dumb.

That being said Jason's introduction is weird. It's rotoscoped and kinda feels out of place at first. He feels more like under the red hood Jason. He definitely has less screen time than the other robins but unlike them has an actual whole scene devoted to him while Nightwing and Red Robin barely have any scenes without the other.

Damian is super weird. He has the most scenes out of the Robins but he acts nothing like himself except with his love of animals. He feels like a young Dick Grayson. Super cheery and very "Yeah let's do this guys"

----------


## Aioros22

Are you talking about Batman: Ninja?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The movie ended
> 
> No spoilers from me, but it was dumb but fun. Tons of stuff doesn't make sense but it's clearly there because that's what the creators enjoy and they know it's dumb.
> 
> That being said Jason's introduction is weird. It's rotoscoped and kinda feels out of place at first. He feels more like under the red hood Jason. He definitely has less screen time than the other robins but unlike them has an actual whole scene devoted to him while Nightwing and Red Robin barely have any scenes without the other.
> 
> Damian is super weird. He has the most scenes out of the Robins but he acts nothing like himself except with his love of animals. He feels like a young Dick Grayson. Super cheery and very "Yeah let's do this guys"


You gotta be kidding. But it's Japan I am surprised but not amused by the change in Damian's portrayal.

----------


## Savatewolf

You know, for a character that people "dislike" and has barely any appearances outside of comics, there's a lot of Red Hood cosplayers here. Obviously not more than Deadpools, stormtroopers, darth vaders and Jokers, but there's still a ton of them.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You know, for a character that people "dislike" and has barely any appearances outside of comics, there's a lot of Red Hood cosplayers here. Obviously not more than Deadpools, stormtroopers, darth vaders and Jokers, but there's still a ton of them.


Oh that obnoxious Shawn James is going to be very upset. And I am going to enjoy seeing him rant.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You know, for a character that people "dislike" and has barely any appearances outside of comics, there's a lot of Red Hood cosplayers here. Obviously not more than Deadpools, stormtroopers, darth vaders and Jokers, but there's still a ton of them.


Jason is only disliked on the internet and even then, just in very specific communities.

----------


## G-Potion

> Batman: Ninja ended
> 
> No spoilers from me, but it was dumb but fun. Tons of stuff doesn't make sense but it's clearly there because that's what the creators enjoy and they know it's dumb.
> 
> That being said Jason's introduction is weird. It's rotoscoped and kinda feels out of place at first. He feels more like under the red hood Jason. He definitely has less screen time than the other robins but unlike them has an actual whole scene devoted to him while Nightwing and Red Robin barely have any scenes without the other.
> 
> Damian is super weird. He has the most scenes out of the Robins but he acts nothing like himself except with his love of animals. He feels like a young Dick Grayson. Super cheery and very "Yeah let's do this guys"


Thanks for sharing!!   :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't want to get my hopes up but Titans is getting relaunched and the new line up doesn't includes Roy. Add Lobdell's comments about issue 24 and well...it could be?


I have no illusion that he gets to return to the Outlaws. But I do wish he would stick around for a few issues, and his friendship with Jason restored.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jason is only disliked on the internet and even then, just in very specific communities.


r/DCcomics.

----------


## Aahz

> Batman: Ninja ended


Is it allready out?

----------


## RedBird

> Batman: Ninja ended
> 
> No spoilers from me, but it was dumb but fun.


Thanks for sharing! Dumb and fun was pretty much all I was expecting from this idea.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> I don't want to get my hopes up but Titans is getting relaunched and the new line up doesn't includes Roy. Add Lobdell's comments about issue 24 and well...it could be?


Do you know who is included in the new line up? I cant find info on its cast.

EDIT

Nevermind I just saw info from the DG thread. 




> I have no illusion that he gets to return to the Outlaws. But I do wish he would stick around for a few issues, and his friendship with Jason restored.


Yeah, as nice as it is that Lobdell confirms the friendship still happened via Jasons internal dialogue, it would be nice to actually see the mutual feelings from both parties. (Roy and Jason).....Kori too on that note!

----------


## Savatewolf

No just a special debut showing at Wondercon

----------


## kaimaciel

Oh, I wish he had more screen time but as long as what we get of him is good then it's alright. Plus, he's voiced by Akira Ishida in Japanese Dub (Gaara from Naruto) and Will Friedle in the English who also voiced Terry McGinnis. Cool!

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212

----------


## G-Potion

> You know, for a character that people "dislike" and has barely any appearances outside of comics, there's a lot of Red Hood cosplayers here. Obviously not more than Deadpools, stormtroopers, darth vaders and Jokers, but there's still a ton of them.


Oh yes I was looking at some photos of the con from twitter and man, there sure were a lot of Red Hoods. Also saw a comment that basically said the same thing you did regarding Jason feeling like his UTRH self.

----------


## Savatewolf

> Oh, I wish he had more screen time but as long as what we get of him is good then it's alright. Plus, he's voiced by Akira Ishida in Japanese Dub (Gaara from Naruto) and Will Friedle in the English who also voiced Terry McGinnis. Cool!


Jason isnt voiced by Will Friedle, he is voiced by Yuri Lowenthal alongside Damian

----------


## kaimaciel

> Jason isnt voiced by Will Friedle, he is voiced by Yuri Lowenthal alongside Damian


Oh... Then the Wikipedia page is wrong.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Oh... Then the Wikipedia page is wrong.



So is IMDB if this is true, since it has Will doing Red Robin and Red Hood.

----------


## Aioros22

How big his stint in the movie is something I don`t necessarily care just as his role looks cooler or is more meaningful. If Damian is the most used of the lot but still barely does anthing of worth that isn`t anything to write home about.

----------


## EMarie

> Jason isnt voiced by Will Friedle, he is voiced by Yuri Lowenthal alongside Damian


I believe Friedle is the American dub while Lowenthal with the Japanese.

----------


## Aahz

Some one got Jason Legendary Gear in injustice

----------


## Aioros22

Have Jason and The Turtles interactions been posted yet? Nothing fancy but Raph and Jay basically take the piss of each other. As it should. 

They may well be my favorites in the game with Hood and Crow. The animations are great.

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ty-chronicles/

No idea what this is about but there's a Hush version of Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

And it is here, Red Hood IT trailer.

----------


## G-Potion

Gotta say, this is probably the sickest Red Hood I've seen in a trailer. His voice just _promises_ death.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Oh yes I was looking at some photos of the con from twitter and man, there sure were a lot of Red Hoods. Also saw a comment that basically said the same thing you did regarding Jason feeling like his UTRH self.


so what does that mean exactly

----------


## G-Potion

> so what does that mean exactly


Uh it means there were a lot of Red Hood cosplayers at the con? Or if you are asking about the other half of my comment, it means other people are also saying Batman Ninja's Jason feels like UTRH's Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ty-chronicles/
> 
> No idea what this is about but there's a Hush version of Jason.


Hum, a boardgame, roleplaying game, by its looks. Cool. I like to play them, a pity I   hardy do so because I lack close friends who dig them (sad puppy face).

----------


## YoshiwanKenobi

Agreed he is sooo underrated and practically not heard of by casual nerds.

www.**********

----------


## SpentShrimp

> And it is here, Red Hood IT trailer.


God that was dumb. Did a 14 year old write it?

----------


## Aioros22

Care to elaborate, beyond the swearing?

----------


## Aioros22

The Ninja Turtles dialogue choices with Red Hood




Probably the coolest DLC nobody saw coming.

----------


## G-Potion

> God that was dumb. Did a 14 year old write it?


No need to be rude about it. Why not explain why you think so instead?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> No need to be rude about it. Why not explain why you think so instead?


It's another one dimensional view of Jason as the Red Hood, but this time it includes....Swearing! And he works out of a garage like the Punisher would!

Seriously. It's the same exact thing that's been done with every other Red Hood fan film. It's super edgy, but it has swearing this time! IT's over dramatic to the Nth degree. There's no fun with it. These fan films are drab and have no creativity.

----------


## Alycat

I kinda agree with SpentShrimp on it ( and most fan films of any character tbh). They are usually one dimensional and focused on how cool the creators believe that character to be and highlighting or harping on specific aspects. Which is fine cause its just a fun fan thing. But I also think that it sounds like edgy cringe that alot of Punisher/Red Hood things fall into.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> It's another one dimensional view of Jason as the Red Hood, but this time it includes....Swearing! And he works out of a garage like the Punisher would!
> 
> Seriously. It's the same exact thing that's been done with every other Red Hood fan film. It's super edgy, but it has swearing this time! IT's over dramatic to the Nth degree. There's no fun with it. These fan films are drab and have no creativity.


...it's a one-minute long trailer.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's another one dimensional view of Jason as the Red Hood, but this time it includes....Swearing! And he works out of a garage like the Punisher would!
> 
> Seriously. It's the same exact thing that's been done with every other Red Hood fan film. It's super edgy, but it has swearing this time! IT's over dramatic to the Nth degree. There's no fun with it. These fan films are drab and have no creativity.


Seems like you already have a fully formed opinion despite this being only a trailer. Maybe it will turn out like you said, maybe not, we'll see. Regardless, saying these fanfilms have no creativity is just plain wrong. The idea of Red Hood vs Pennywise is a creative one regardless of how the execution turns out. Or, if you want a good multi dimensional Red Hood, check out the Red Hood Retcon episodes.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I have to agree with SpentShrimp and Alycat insofar as fan films are concerned although I haven't looked at this particular trailer as yet. Not every one of them is bad but TBH I have seen an awful lot of them that were just cringe worthy nonsense and that's across fandoms not just in the comic one.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> ...it's a one-minute long trailer.


And it did not impress upon me a different take on a fan film of the character.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Seems like you already have a fully formed opinion despite this being only a trailer. Maybe it will turn out like you said, maybe not, we'll see. Regardless, saying these fanfilms have no creativity is just plain wrong. The idea of Red Hood vs Pennywise is a creative one regardless of how the execution turns out. Or, if you want a good multi dimensional Red Hood, check out the Red Hood Retcon episodes.


It's one thing for him to take on a foe from a different IP, but they don't do anything unique with Jason as a character.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> I have to agree with SpentShrimp and Alycat insofar as fan films are concerned although I haven't looked at this particular trailer as yet. Not every one of them is bad but TBH I have seen an awful lot of them that were just cringe worthy nonsense and that's across fandoms not just in the comic one.






> I kinda agree with SpentShrimp on it ( and most fan films of any character tbh). They are usually one dimensional and focused on how cool the creators believe that character to be and highlighting or harping on specific aspects. Which is fine cause its just a fun fan thing. But I also think that it sounds like edgy cringe that alot of Punisher/Red Hood things fall into.


I'm not surprised that I'm not the only one who got an edgy cringe vibe from this. It gives the impression that people only watched UTRH and thought that is how Jason is in every appearance he makes.

Though the icing on the cake for fun of the mill Jason Todd/Red Hood fan film would to have him smoking. I have yet to see artwork posted with Jason smoking that has some style to it. Spike Spiegal makes smoking look cool. Clint East in his old Spaghetti Westerns makes smoking look cool. Steve McQueen makes smoking look cool. 

Tumblr artwork posted of Jason Todd smoking has yet to have any style to it.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's one thing for him to take on a foe from a different IP, but they don't do anything unique with Jason as a character.


I understand not having a good impression with fan films at large but you're not giving this one a fair chance with all of your criticism based on a one minute trailer, where they for sure won't show the best stuff the film has to offer.

Regarding the fan arts I just don't agree with your view.

----------


## magpieM

> The Ninja Turtles dialogue choices with Red Hood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the coolest DLC nobody saw coming.


All of Jason's lines sound familiar to me...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I understand not having a good impression with fan films at large but you're not giving this one a fair chance with all of your criticism based on a one minute trailer, where they for sure won't show the best stuff the film has to offer.
> 
> Regarding the fan arts I just don't agree with your view.


Thing is, nearly all the fan films fall in the same trap, and let's not forget, the purposes of the trailers is to give an overall impression of the tone the film is aiming for. So is not entirely wrong to judge the film using the footage provided. 




> All of Jason's lines sound familiar to me...


Yeah, Jason really got the short end of the stick with the strike. It takes a lot of luster from their interactions when an 70% is just re purposed lines.

----------


## Alycat

> I understand not having a good impression with fan films at large but you're not giving this one a fair chance with all of your criticism based on a one minute trailer, where they for sure won't show the best stuff the film has to offer.
> 
> Regarding the fan arts I just don't agree with your view.


I mean trailers are how people judge if they want to see a movie or not. I would say most of the time they are good indications of quality and tone that the creator wants. I think its fair to criticize it in that respect.




> All of Jason's lines sound familiar to me...



I think it's cause they are. The strike ruined the fun interactions for new characters.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I mean trailers are how people judge if they want to see a movie or not. I would say most of the time they are good indications of quality and tone that the creator wants. I think its fair to criticize it in that respect.


Sure just don't watch it after complaining so much and because if you come back with the exact same opinion who can take you seriously when you do that?

----------


## G-Potion

> I mean trailers are how people judge if they want to see a movie or not. I would say most of the time they are good indications of quality and tone that the creator wants. I think its fair to criticize it in that respect.


Sure, but not to the point that the criticism sounds as if the whole movie has been watched. The catch of this movie is how they integrate Pennywise into this universe, something no one's done yet and here we are with the creativity complaints. I just think it's unfair to write the whole thing off just because the trailer looks "edgy" and your past experiences with fanfilms are not great, and doing so by throwing "dumb" and "write like a 14 year-old" around so easily (not saying you did btw). Shouldn't a free product by fans and for fans get a fairer chance?

----------


## Alycat

> Sure just don't watch it after complaining so much and because if you come back with the exact same opinion who can take you seriously when you do that?


That's pretty silly though. I've watched movies where I've had complaints or opinions about the trailer that was entirely correct and did not change my opinion. Maybe the opinion is the same because the judgment was correct? Why would you not take it seriously? For example, I thought the trailers for Green Lantern looked like trash and saw the movie and kept the same opinion. How is that silly?




> Sure, but not to the point that the criticism sounds as if the whole movie has been watched. The catch of this movie is how they integrate Pennywise into this universe, something no one's done yet and here we are with the creativity complaints. I just think it's unfair to write the whole thing off just because the trailer looks "edgy" and your past experiences with fan films are not great, and doing so by throwing "dumb" and "write like a 14 year-old" around so easily (not saying you did btw). Shouldn't a free product by fans and for fans get a fairer chance?


I get what you're saying. I guess it's down to individual opinions on time and worth though. For example, I would still give this a go. But I also wouldn't blame someone who was burned by fan films and sees similar problems in a trailer to put those criticisms out and justify not watching the movie because of it. People don't like feeling like their time was wasted on something they didn't enjoy. Heck, the Justice League movie is basically an example of this. People judged the movie by the trailer and past experiences because they don't want to waste time or money on something not potentially good. And that's the creator's fault because all work is subject to be judged even if its just a one minute trailer.

----------


## G-Potion

I just scrolled through the comments on the trailer and saw one that made me think. Considering the filmmakers' point of view, they'd probably want to bring this to broader audience, including the IT fans as well as people who're new to Red Hood, so in that sense, the trailer does its job by giving lines that essentially explains who Red Hood is (not a hero) and what he does (what the heroes don't) and a bit of edge (which he does have with varying amount).

----------


## Alycat

> I just scrolled through the comments on the trailer and saw one that made me think. Considering the filmmakers' point of view, they'd probably want to bring this to broader audience, including the IT fans as well as people who're new to Red Hood, so in that sense, the trailer does its job by giving lines that essentially explains who Red Hood is (not a hero) and what he does (what the heroes don't) and a bit of edge (which he does have with varying amount).


 I like the comment by the person who thought it was about Jason going to work in the IT department. I would watch movie about that. It would be comedy gold.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's pretty silly though. I've watched movies where I've had complaints or opinions about the trailer that was entirely correct and did not change my opinion. Maybe the opinion is the same because the judgment was correct? Why would you not take it seriously? For example, I thought the trailers for Green Lantern looked like trash and saw the movie and kept the same opinion. How is that silly?


Nothing really it just sometimes makes people wonder if you were so against that particular show why even watch it?

----------


## G-Potion

> I like the comment by the person who thought it was about Jason going to work in the IT department. I would watch movie about that. It would be comedy gold.


You know what, me too.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm not surprised that I'm not the only one who got an edgy cringe vibe from this.


I was speaking of fan films in general not about this trailer for one specifically since, like I said before, I haven't even watched it and don't really have any interest in doing so.

----------


## EMarie

> I was speaking of fan films in general not about this trailer for one specifically since, like I said before, I haven't even watched it and don't really have any interest in doing so.


Ditto. I have no real interest in fan films.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I gotcha now. 

Now, if they made a fan film that a more Spike Spiegal style of Jason, I'd be down.

----------


## RedBird

Hey did anyone hear about Jasons quick cameo in the movie "Ready Player One"?

From what I could gather, apparently Arkham Knight Jason is seen walking out of a 'library' of sorts that the main characters are walking into.

I haven't seen it for myself, but I thought I'd mention this just as a heads up for anyone who was planning to see the film anyways.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hey did anyone hear about Jasons quick cameo in the movie "Ready Player One"?
> 
> From what I could gather, apparently Arkham Knight Jason is seen walking out of a 'library' of sorts that the main characters are walking into.
> 
> I haven't seen it for myself, but I thought I'd mention this just as a heads up for anyone who was planning to see the film anyways.


No idea, but it really amuses me that he's leaving some library-ish place. I doubt it was scripted on purpose, which makes it even funnier.

----------


## G-Potion

Interesting. 
So, from reddit, 
*spoilers:*

"I vividly remember the Arkham Knight being shown clearly at one point. As spoiler-free as possible I can say it's when Parzival has the first key and starts becoming famous in the Oasis. He enters the Journals where people do research on Halliday and Arkham Knight is exiting, he turns around and does like a double-take at Parzival."
*end of spoilers*

Jason accidentally gets characterized right.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Man, if that is true we have a stepping stone in popular culture for hour boy!

----------


## Aioros22

> It's another one dimensional view of Jason as the Red Hood, but this time it includes....Swearing! And he works out of a garage like the Punisher would!
> 
> Seriously. It's the same exact thing that's been done with every other Red Hood fan film. It's super edgy, but it has swearing this time! IT's over dramatic to the Nth degree. There's no fun with it. These fan films are drab and have no creativity.


It`s sort of like asking why do we have so many origin/retelling of characters who start with their origins. 

We do, it`s part of the animal and most fan films want to throw in and give their take of the iconography before (if that`s their goal) running their own stories. Quite the fan films we`ve have been posting don`t actually start at the inception point. And swearing is not a concern of mine or safehouses/garages. Punisher didn`t invent them and it has been used for Red Hood. 

You can bet that if the DCU ever goes for a Red Hood this is sort of route they will go for -like they do for every other character. Either they start with him in the middle of something and you flashback or you start with the very beginnings. All the talk about how limited Wiinick`s take was a few pages ago? That`s because he only envisioned the origin - the beginning of the Journey and that`s how UTRH is used. The wheel that sets his return in motion. 

I`ll be watching this because I am quite sure they will take this into their own stuff as well, like they have with Nigthwing (I`m guessing they`re the same creative team).

----------


## Aioros22

From the NW Thread: 

looks like Roy will be showing up in the book and either team up or butheads with Damian and maybe Dick again. 



sting!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hey did anyone hear about Jasons quick cameo in the movie "Ready Player One"?
> 
> From what I could gather, apparently Arkham Knight Jason is seen walking out of a 'library' of sorts that the main characters are walking into.
> 
> I haven't seen it for myself, but I thought I'd mention this just as a heads up for anyone who was planning to see the film anyways.


Don't get ahead of yourselves everyone, despite what the trailers might've led you to believe, the cameo characters on RPO are just avatars; no the character themselves.

----------


## RedBird

> Don't get ahead of yourselves everyone, despite what the trailers might've led you to believe, the cameo characters on RPO are just avatars; no the character themselves.


Sorry I forgot to mention that. I thought that was obvious considering the plot and idea of this film. Still, a cameo is a cameo, and since these appearances are only, well, appearances without dialogue or anything else establishing them, then it really doesn't make that much of a difference whether its the 'real' character or not. Its just cool to see the Arkham Knight Jay show up in something this big and be acknowledged, (by the films own admission and premise), as a pop culture icon. (as all the other characters and cameos are)

----------


## Zaresh

> Don't get ahead of yourselves everyone, despite what the trailers might've led you to believe, the cameo characters on RPO are just avatars; no the character themselves.


Well, isn't that obvious? The movie (and the book) is about this VR massive online game, so clearly it's going to be an avatar of some random player.

----------


## RedBird

Blurry screenshot, but there it is I guess.


Ha, the high angle shot makes it look like security footage taken of the Knight.  :Stick Out Tongue: 



EDIT: Apparently there was also an article about the several cameos, one of which is of course AK.
80 Ready Player One easter eggs

_"Not every cameo tied to DC’s Universe comes from the movies or TV shows. In the end, the video game adaptations of the Batman universe – specifically those dreamed up by the developers of Batman: Arkham Asylum at Rocksteady Studios – prove just as popular. The popularity of a game series from the 200s alongside classic gaming are controversial, but considering how big a splash the Arkham designs made on the geek community, it’s understandable. And as far as ‘painfully cool’ designs taken to the extreme go, the poster boy is undoubtedly the Arkham Knight himself.

The villain of the third Rocksteady Arkham game made a splash with his perversion of Batman’s cowl and body armor when he made his debut. If you never played the games, just take a look at the Halliday Journals patron exiting the building just as Parzival enters after losing the first race. And credit to the animators: the Arkham Knight’s scanning of Parzival is pitch-perfect for the character."_

----------


## G-Potion

> I`ll be watching this because I am quite sure they will take this into their own stuff as well, like they have with Nigthwing (I`m guessing they`re the same creative team).


Not really, only the Red Hood guy is from the ismahawk team. However, the rest of the crew did help out with some of the team's past projects.

Edit: Web coverage says there's Danny Shepard as Nightwing so I guess the team is more involved in this than I initially thought.

----------


## G-Potion

> _"Not every cameo tied to DC’s Universe comes from the movies or TV shows. In the end, the video game adaptations of the Batman universe – specifically those dreamed up by the developers of Batman: Arkham Asylum at Rocksteady Studios – prove just as popular. The popularity of a game series from the 200s alongside classic gaming are controversial, but considering how big a splash the Arkham designs made on the geek community, it’s understandable. And as far as ‘painfully cool’ designs taken to the extreme go, the poster boy is undoubtedly the Arkham Knight himself.
> 
> The villain of the third Rocksteady Arkham game made a splash with his perversion of Batman’s cowl and body armor when he made his debut. If you never played the games, just take a look at the Halliday Journals patron exiting the building just as Parzival enters after losing the first race. And credit to the animators: the Arkham Knight’s scanning of Parzival is pitch-perfect for the character."_


Haha, "painfully cool".  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Art time!

https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dori_yagi

----------


## G-Potion

OMG this has so much love.

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like Soy wants to prove SpentShrimp wrong. Have a smoking Jason.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Looks like Soy wants to prove SpentShrimp wrong. Have a smoking Jason.


Woah! That is cool af  :Big Grin: 

I gotta admit though, the combination of the ciggerate and bandana are giving me Solid Snake vibes.

(which makes sense since Soy seems to be a fan of the concept artist for mgs.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't think that is Jason though. Looks more like Solid Snake or one of Soy's OCs

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I don't think that is Jason though. Looks more like Solid Snake or one of Soy's OCs


He's wearing the exact Ninja Jason outfit and the blade says "Red Blade."

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He's wearing the exact Ninja Jason outfit and the blade says "Red Blade."


Is not the exact same outfit, is missing the red hoodie for one and the face looks nothing  like Jason's.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Is not the exact same outfit, is missing the red hoodie for one and the face looks nothing  like Jason's.


He doesn't have the helmet on. 

None of these have a red hoodie.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Beu-3ykD...death_star_soy

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbhiHSDD...death_star_soy

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZteudaj...death_star_soy

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> He doesn't have the helmet on. 
> 
> None of these have a red hoodie.
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Beu-3ykD...death_star_soy
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BbhiHSDD...death_star_soy
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BZteudaj...death_star_soy


Those outfits are also different to the one depicted on the most recent pic, with the different bat emblem being the most glaring change. And I do know he's not wearing the helmet, what I am saying is that the face in that picture looks nothing like Soy draws Jason's face.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s clearly meant to be his Jason or a variation of it. 

Neither of you are right and wrong.

----------


## Aioros22

> Don't get ahead of yourselves everyone, despite what the trailers might've led you to believe, the cameo characters on RPO are just avatars; no the character themselves.


That goes without saying, it`s just a cameo/reference in a big sci-fi movie but that is exciting nonetheless. It`s stuff like this that cements characters further into visual pop culture. People who are aware of it will mention the character and the ones who aren`t will be told about it and maybe check it out. 

More shout outs like this please.

----------


## G-Potion

I mean, he's free to experiment with his own creation, in both styles and details. For all intent and purposes, this clearly tells you that it's Red Hood ninja with the armor, white coat, bat emblem and All Blades.

If Soy does a chibi Jason or a Chinese styled one, it should still be his Jason right? Let's say this is his MGS inspired Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

I remember Ninja Red Hood has the white sreak. Maybe the lighter stroke on his hair is it? Thought it was the lighting at first.

----------


## magpieM

> Looks like Soy wants to prove SpentShrimp wrong. Have a smoking Jason.


Wow, this is amazing! He looks aged-up a little. He's got a beard?

----------


## G-Potion

> Wow, this is amazing! He looks aged-up a little. He's got a beard?


Yep. His last unmasked drawing of Ninja Red Hood was also aged-up as well.

----------


## Caivu

By Rafael Gumboc:

Screenshot_20180330-202202.jpg

----------


## okiedokiewo

> By Rafael Gumboc:
> 
> Screenshot_20180330-202202.jpg


Nice. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh man, I wasn't expecting for Roy's hat from the N52 to show up in Arrow!



https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6to6Yj...=coltonlhaynes

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh man, I wasn't expecting for Roy's hat from the N52 to show up in Arrow!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6to6Yj...=coltonlhaynes


Wha that's so cool!!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Artemis by Otto Schmidt

https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...96683240607747

----------


## G-Potion

A panel for RHATO#23

https://twitter.com/ryanwinn

----------


## The Whovian

> He divides a lot of opinions, but let's face it; sometimes you've just got to love Jason Todd!


Yep. Dude is awesome!

----------


## The Whovian

> Looks like Soy wants to prove SpentShrimp wrong. Have a smoking Jason.


WHOA! That is so cool!!!

----------


## The Whovian

> By Rafael Gumboc:
> 
> Attachment 64038


LOVE that cover!

----------


## G-Potion

> Artemis by Otto Schmidt
> 
> https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...96683240607747


I like this Artemis!

----------


## RedBird

> Oh man, I wasn't expecting for Roy's hat from the N52 to show up in Arrow!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6to6Yj...=coltonlhaynes


Wow, nice!

For a second there I thought you were just referring to the fact that he was wearing a cap, but then...

[img]https://i.*****.com/vi/W-aAGOmLPW0/maxresdefault.jpg[/img] 

Damn! Right on, its the same logo and everything! Thanks for that easter egg Dark.

----------


## Aioros22

This is the kind of easter egg and pop culture dwelings I live for.

----------


## Aioros22

> Artemis by Otto Schmidt
> 
> https://twitter.com/OttoSchmidt72/st...96683240607747


Looks Marini-esque which is never a bad thing!

----------


## G-Potion

Nightwing#42 preview. 

What strong feelings, Dick?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## EMarie

Those mentions to Jason read weird to me. Partly because I can read it like this was written during Jason's villain period because of the tone. Maybe Dick is trying to keep up the act for Jason's cover? Also I'm not sure how someone is stealing Jason's shtick if the only thing in common is the fact the masks are red.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Those mentions to Jason read weird to me. Partly because I can read it like this was written during Jason's villain period because of the tone. Maybe Dick is trying to keep up the act for Jason's cover? Also I'm not sure how someone is stealing Jason's shtick if the only thing in common is the fact the masks are red.


This one's from a loong time ago and unfortunately I haven't been able to find the artist again so the watermark will have to do as credit but looks like Grayson's not the only one who made this connection between Jason's fashion sense and what it would mean in Japan.

Not to mention a fox Kabuki mask would certainly make good on the pun with Todd as his name  :Big Grin:

----------


## EMarie

That's some nice work but I still think the canon connection is stretching it. Jason did wear one when he was Robin when he pretended he was a ghost though.

----------


## EMarie

> Not to mention a fox Kabuki mask would certainly make good on the pun with Todd as his name


Another connection for you: Bruce loses his parents after watching a Zorro movie in Crime Alley. Years later when patrolling the same area on the anniversary of his parents death he meets Jason Todd.

Zorro means Fox too so I thought that was a neat detail.

----------


## Aahz

> Another connection for you: Bruce loses his parents after watching a Zorro movie in Crime Alley. Years later when patrolling the same area on the anniversary of his parents death he meets Jason Todd.
> 
> Zorro means Fox too so I thought that was a neat detail.


Bruce also took up the mantle of the Flying Fox, in a silver age Superboy story.

----------


## The Dying Detective

You know I've always wondered why Jason had that white patch of hair on his head in Post-Crisis when he didn't have any such thing as Robin. Did he dye it after he came back from the dead?

----------


## EMarie

Because Jim Lee did it in Hush. I don't think anyone but Morrison touched it. He claimed the Lazarus Pit did it and Jason was a red head. Personally I never cared for either. The white hair just seems to make a lot of artist draw Jason too old like the Injustice appearance.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Because Jim Lee did it in Hush. I don't think anyone but Morrison touched it. He claimed the Lazarus Pit did it and Jason was a red head. Personally I never cared for either. The white hair just seems to make a lot of artist draw Jason too old like the Injustice appearance.


Well in fairness to Jim Lee and whoever else chooses to draw him with that white patch of hair Jason was dead for a very long time if you want to use Tim and Damian as time markers to indicate how long he has been dead.

----------


## EMarie

Jason wasn't that much older than Tim. There was an issue where Cassandra Cain went to his grave on his 18th birthday. I think her 18th  birthday was even introduced before that. In canon he wasn't "dead" more than a few years. Technically he was dead for 6 months making him younger than he should be. Jason shouldn't look older than Dick and Bruce. I remember it being said that even Marvel had trouble with artists aging Rogue up when she was first introduced because of the white streak.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Jason wasn't that much older than Tim. There was an issue where Cassandra Cain went to his grave on his 18th birthday. I think her 18th  birthday was even introduced before that. In canon he wasn't "dead" more than a few years. Technically he was dead for 6 months making him younger than he should be. Jason shouldn't look older than Dick and Bruce. I remember it being said that even Marvel had trouble with artists aging Rogue up when she was first introduced because of the white streak.


That would mean that it had been about seven years since Jason died and that he and Tim should nearly be the same age. So I guess he shouldn't be that old.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Looks like Soy wants to prove SpentShrimp wrong. Have a smoking Jason.


Red Snake or Solid Hood? :Stick Out Tongue: 

I always thought of him going the big boss route and creating his own version of MSF with Roy. But i guess since he's trying to be more of a good guy maybe his time with Artemis and Bizarro is him being more like Philantrophy? (Snake and Otacon teaming up to look into metal gears after they meet in MGS1)

----------


## Aahz

> Because Jim Lee did it in Hush. I don't think anyone but Morrison touched it. He claimed the Lazarus Pit did it and Jason was a red head. Personally I never cared for either. The white hair just seems to make a lot of artist draw Jason too old like the Injustice appearance.


Even without the white streak he is still often imo written older as he should be. I mean they keep for example teaming him up with characters that are Dicks age. First Donna and Kyle, than Roy and Kory, and I'm no sure how old Artemis was usually pre flashpoint (I'm not that interested in Wonder Woman), but at least I assumed her allways to be older than Donna.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I don't see how does it matter whom Jason teams up with. Lobdell at least keeps writing Jason as someone younger and more reckless than his brothers.

Anyways, a new Batmetal has been released

----------


## G-Potion

I don't mind that he hangs out with people Dick's age or older. But, would be nice if that seniority plays a part in their interactions, even casually. Baby brother Jason is my jam.

----------


## EMarie

> Even without the white streak he is still often imo written older as he should be. I mean they keep for example teaming him up with characters that are Dicks age. First Donna and Kyle, than Roy and Kory, and I'm no sure how old Artemis was usually pre flashpoint (I'm not that interested in Wonder Woman), but at least I assumed her allways to be older than Donna.


I never saw that as aging him up. Jason had no one to hang out with that was his age except Kid Devil and they lived so far apart they were pen pals. Damian teamed up with Starfire but I don't see that making him older. Jason did hang out with the TT a little in old canon when they needed extra help. He was there when Roy found out he was a dad and stopped Donna from killing Hawk.

Ironically Artemis was originally around Jason's age. Her people the Bana-Mighdall fought against the Themyscirans thanks to Circe but Artemis, at fourteen, was the only one who spoke out against it. All the Amazons except Diana were trapped in another dimension by Circe. While hardly any time passed on Earth ten years passed in the dimension making Artemis 24 in her first appearance.

----------


## G-Potion

https://k-axani.tumblr.com

----------


## Aioros22

Damn, that`s cool. 

Some RobinJay! goodness coming swigingly your way

http://polmcarts.tumblr.com/



https://ooooosushi.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

Just recently Inkdaddy rebloged this drawing from his instagram with the following text 



"I was lucky enough to see the premiere of Batman Ninja at WonderCon and it is completely bonkers, but in a really really reeeeally good way. I think you folks will enjoy it! I had this on Instagram for a while and thought Id post it here. This actually isnt what he looks like in the film; his face is visible for about two seconds and I dont thiiink its a spoiler to put up a drawing of that? But people are ridiculously sensitive so Ill leave this here for a while instead. Anyway, the movie comes out digitally on 24 April and DVD release is on 8 May!"


So, does this mean that his face isn`t that different after all? It`s fun because you guys were just talking about the streak too.

On regards to *that* to me it was always an easy deal on the surface. It`s a cool aesthetic connecting a side effect from the Lazarus Pit. It may convey some level of immortality or long lived status or it may have simply aged him from the years he died at. This isn`t of course the only pit and side effecs on his life. You have have to take in account the "Cleansing" from All Caste of which Ducra claimed nobody in a century had survived. Was it sheer stubburness or prophecy? Maybe a bit of column A and column B. 

Since Loedbell introduce the All Blades that always come up with a cost for Jason, sometimes his own blood or soul, you could still make a convincing case to dip the streak into it as a side effect of bits of soul taking eventually its tool on him. Like with evenrything in the character`s published life, being awesome is costly in a way it hasn`t really been to anyone else in the franchise.

----------


## Aioros22

http://bacco85.tumblr.com/


http://3eden.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Has anyone heard this _supposed_ rumor?




> There is rumors that Sunday's night slot might be a new DC TV show based on Red Hood titled The Outlaws.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Has anyone heard this _supposed_ rumor?


New to me.

----------


## G-Potion

> Has anyone heard this _supposed_ rumor?


That's new. Where did you hear it from? (Hopefully not an April's Fool joke?)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Came up on a discussion about the recent renewals at the CW.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

There is a new epic set for Jason on IJ2 called Outlaws

----------


## G-Potion

> http://jaybru1.tumblr.com/


Those are awesome and right in the feels! As someone who kinda like the thing with Talia and Jason in Lost Days exactly because how messed up and wrong it is, I love that she is in here as well.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Has anyone heard this _supposed_ rumor?


Nope, I hadn't heard any kind of rumor to that effect either.

----------


## Jovos2099

i hope the rumor is true.

----------


## Aahz

> There is a new epic set for Jason on IJ2 called Outlaws




Here is a an other video where you can see more of it.

Everything apart from the Helmet looks actually good. Especially arms and Torso, the legs have imo to much stuff on.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, I don't like the helmet at all. Jay looks like he's got beady little eyes there.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> i hope the rumor is true.


I'd be ecstatic if it were true.

----------


## Aioros22

Thinking that may be your annual April fool`s rumor but I`d love to be proven wrong. 

So, Injustice was out and not only was Bruce down by the same tactic that grazed Jason, he seemingly didn`t even know she was born and died. Ouch. The interesting thing was that the usual "Continues" was replaced with "End" after she gets taken down by Gooster Gold. Does this mean the current arc is over and we`re getting a time skip or is the current *volume* ending?

----------


## Eto

Pls No RHATO on CW. Theyll ruin it Smh.

----------


## Aioros22

Depends on the creatives and liberties taken. 

Arrow has two seasons that aren`t up to par but then got stuff like the last two (or is it three now) and season 2 that were absolutely on fire. When it comes to tv shows you already know some seasons won`t be as good as others. 

I`d like them to try, at least.

----------


## Eto

Hopefully Matt Reeves will do a Under The Hood adaptation. Pls

----------


## Zaresh

> Those are awesome and right in the feels! As someone who kinda like the thing with Talia and Jason in Lost Days exactly because how messed up and wrong it is, I love that she is in here as well.


There are a lot of nice pieces there. I hit random and ended with one of DitF that was pretty nice.
Great find, *@Aioros22*.

----------


## EMarie

> On regards to *that* to me it was always an easy deal on the surface. It`s a cool aesthetic connecting a side effect from the Lazarus Pit. It may convey some level of immortality or long lived status or it may have simply aged him from the years he died at. This isn`t of course the only pit and side effecs on his life. You have have to take in account the "Cleansing" from All Caste of which Ducra claimed nobody in a century had survived. Was it sheer stubburness or prophecy? Maybe a bit of column A and column B. 
> 
> Since Loedbell introduce the All Blades that always come up with a cost for Jason, sometimes his own blood or soul, you could still make a convincing case to dip the streak into it as a side effect of bits of soul taking eventually its tool on him. Like with evenrything in the character`s published life, being awesome is costly in a way it hasn`t really been to anyone else in the franchise.


The Lazarus Pit could have aged him? Isn't that is the opposite of the way it usually works? I thought Morrison made it sound like it was related to the stress of his rebirth. 

The cleansing was never explained but nothing suggested it aged him up. We saw Jason under water until Ducra pulled him up. She commented about whether he was worthy or stubborn suggesting it has to do with will power.

I think people started getting confused because of Lee's art. DC in general seems unsure as some remember Jason is young and had a Kara/Jason teasing in Supegirl while others make Bruce look younger than him. I like the mystical angle though.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Here is a an other video where you can see more of it.
> 
> Everything apart from the Helmet looks actually good. Especially arms and Torso, the legs have imo to much stuff on.


When he has the hood up, it looks silly. That would not help out at all in a real fight. It would do the opposite.

----------


## Alycat

I know we would never get it, but hoodless Jason would've been so good.

----------


## G-Potion

> I know we would never get it, but hoodless Jason would've been so good.


Agree. Knowing that there's a white streak but not getting to see it in-game is such a bummer.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Agree. Knowing that there's a white streak but not getting to see it in-game is such a bummer.


It hurts a bit to not see it. Jim Lee's art for Jason was probably the best.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah, I don't like the helmet at all. Jay looks like he's got beady little eyes there.


It's not your standard good looking helmet but I think it's fitting that Jason would wear the hell out of this just for the scary and unsettling factor.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## RedBird

> 


Wow thats sad.
Just more proof as to why the AK series imo was more superior when it came to the emotional and 'love inspired' elements of Jasons return.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The Lazarus Pit could have aged him? Isn't that is the opposite of the way it usually works? I thought Morrison made it sound like it was related to the stress of his rebirth. 
> 
> The cleansing was never explained but nothing suggested it aged him up. We saw Jason under water until Ducra pulled him up. She commented about whether he was worthy or stubborn suggesting it has to do with will power.
> 
> I think people started getting confused because of Lee's art. DC in general seems unsure as some remember Jason is young and had a Kara/Jason teasing in Supegirl while others make Bruce look younger than him. I like the mystical angle though.


People seems to forget that Lee can literally draw like three different faces, that's the entire reason Jason looks so old in Hush. 




> Wow thats sad.
> Just more proof as to why the AK series imo was more superior when it came to the emotional and 'love inspired' elements of Jasons return.


Ehhhh, AK botched everything it could've done with it by shoehorning Jason in the universe when previous games didn't have as much as hint of him existing.

----------


## Aahz

> When he has the hood up, it looks silly. That would not help out at all in a real fight. It would do the opposite.


I like the look with the Hood over the Helmet, even if it is not that practical.

Appart from this, tze Red Hood gear in that game is not that great, there is nor really awesome looking stuff like some of the other characters got. And he (appat from some minor details on some guns) no glowing stuff like for example the new Batman gear set.

----------


## RedBird

> Ehhhh, AK botched everything it could've done with it by shoehorning Jason in the universe when previous games didn't have as much as hint of him existing.


Whilst it would have been cool if they had played the long game with this tale, Jason is no more shoe horned in AK than any other friend/family member in that game. Hell that was arguablly the whole shtick of these games anyways, adding more and more elements to build towards the final 'climax' of Bats mythos. AA was only about Batman and his rogues gallery in the asylum. AC combined the rogues gallery with another important factor in Bat mythos, Gotham City itself. And then AK took both the rogues and the city and gave us what is probably the last and important element of Batman, family/legacy. Hell that concept was written all through the many trailers for AK.


We got some of that (batmembers) in Arkham city but it was obviously more for the sake of familiar faces with no emotional pull rather than the more thematic connection of family/allies and protecting those you care about in ak.

EDIT: I think that photo was update to the VR series as I couldn't find any other information about that photo more than a month old, not even in the original easter egg video. Kudos to rocksteady for doubling down on the feels there, even after all this time.

----------


## Aioros22

Uhhh..Jason was mentioned/hinted in other games of the series, most notably by the Joker to Tim at the carnival.

Redbird best me to it.

----------


## Aioros22

> I like the look with the Hood over the Helmet, even if it is not that practical.
> 
> Appart from this, tze Red Hood gear in that game is not that great, there is nor really awesome looking stuff like some of the other characters got. And he (appat from some minor details on some guns) no glowing stuff like for example the new Batman gear set.


More glowing than Gold plate armor?

I am fine with the gears and glad they aren't looking copy pasted by everyone else. He can only stand out that way.

The new helmet is not what I would go for but I can tell what the vibe is. Praticality is not it, creppy and teathrical is. I like the rest of the getup enough.

----------


## Aahz

> More glowing than Gold plate armor?


Thats not really glowing, I mean something like the new Batman suit (the one that looks like the Hell-Bat-Armor) with a glowing eyes and the glowing Batsymbol (and all the other glowing Stuff).

----------


## Aioros22

> The Lazarus Pit could have aged him? Isn't that is the opposite of the way it usually works? I thought Morrison made it sound like it was related to the stress of his rebirth. 
> 
> The cleansing was never explained but nothing suggested it aged him up. We saw Jason under water until Ducra pulled him up. She commented about whether he was worthy or stubborn suggesting it has to do with will power.
> 
> I think people started getting confused because of Lee's art. DC in general seems unsure as some remember Jason is young and had a Kara/Jason teasing in Supegirl while others make Bruce look younger than him. I like the mystical angle though.


Not so much what is but what could be used for. The use and circumstances of the Lazarus by Ras and Talia tend to be at odds with the one for Jason, often as the proverbial fountain of youth to keep going. 

Without taking in account any occult/afterlife extrapolations for Jason in making it a sort of mark of Cain I would be quite content with having the streak show up on older/FutureJason as means to indicate some extended use of the All Blades. 

That would be likely the best scenario for both sides while leaving whatever comprosing ethos regarding the Pit intact as "we dont know" basis.

----------


## Aioros22

> Thats not really glowing, I mean something like the new Batman suit (the one that looks like the Hell-Bat-Armor) with a glowing eyes and the glowing Batsymbol (and all the other glowing Stuff).


Ah, you mean the god/demon forms or whatever they are called?

----------


## G-Potion

I just saw Sean Murphy's tweet but have yet to read this week's White Knight. Is there more mention of Jason?





(He meant issue#7)

----------


## Aahz

> Ah, you mean the god/demon forms or whatever they are called?


No those are shaders (and Jason dosn't even has glowing Eyes with those), some characters have some gear peaces that glow with every shader.

Like this Batman armor.

----------


## Aahz

Or these sets.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...88542118866944

As I guessed, Superman on the variant for issue 21 is unrelated to the issue itself.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I just saw Sean Murphy's tweet but have yet to read this week's White Knight. Is there more mention of Jason?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (He meant issue#7)


Yes. You find out what originally happened to him.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I just saw Sean Murphy's tweet but have yet to read this week's White Knight. Is there more mention of Jason?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (He meant issue#7)





> Yes. You find out what originally happened to him.


And it's pretty dumb.

*spoilers:*
Joker caught and tortured Jason because he wanted to know Batman's identity, Jason resisted but when Joker asked him what would be his last words Jason broke by saying he wished he would've never met Bruce Wayne. Then the Joker set him free, knowing it would hurt Batman more that Jason hated him now.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The Dying Detective

> And it's pretty dumb.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Joker caught and tortured Jason because he wanted to know Batman's identity, Jason resisted but when Joker asked him what would be his last words Jason broke by saying he wished he would've never met Bruce Wayne. Then the Joker set him free, knowing it would hurt Batman more that Jason hated him now.
> *end of spoilers*


Well that's awful Jason's way stronger than that and thankfully it's not canon.

----------


## Alycat

> And it's pretty dumb.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Joker caught and tortured Jason because he wanted to know Batman's identity, Jason resisted but when Joker asked him what would be his last words Jason broke by saying he wished he would've never met Bruce Wayne. Then the Joker set him free, knowing it would hurt Batman more that Jason hated him now.
> *end of spoilers*



Oh so it was just as stupid and pointless as everyone thought it would be. Change for the sake of change is not a good thing. I wish writers understood that.

----------


## Aioros22

It was definatly emotional but we have yet to see if Joker is telling the truth. Alot of the theme of White Knight is that Batman hurts the city as much as the Joker does, just in a different way. Barbara and Dick pretty much laid out that to him in previous issues but of course his heart in the right when it comes to the city. 

Since WK will have a sequel at least i`m expecting Murphy to expand on Jason`s character arc.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh and Jason`s suit in this verse looks identical to the one seen in BvsS exceot with the traditional Robin Hood color pallete.

----------


## RedBird

> And it's pretty dumb.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Joker caught and tortured Jason because he wanted to know Batman's identity, Jason resisted but when Joker asked him what would be his last words Jason broke by saying he wished he would've never met Bruce Wayne. Then the Joker set him free, knowing it would hurt Batman more that Jason hated him now.
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah just read it and ah, there it is. Another comic series I was enjoying just fine goes out of its way to disrespect Jasons time as Robin. Lol what else is new? All in all, pretty anti climactic for the 'end' of that plot thread. 

Still curious to see this conclusion goes though, I never expected neo Harley to turn into this much of a threat.

Hate to keep harping on about AK, but even that game did this 'moment' WAY better.

Perhaps Murphy has more planned about this particular story moment but probably not. Or perhaps nothing about Jason I would be interested in reading about after this, still might give the sequal a go though.

----------


## Alycat

Actually, this did make me think about something, which is how each Robin would be without ever being Robin. I think Flashpoint showed us Priest Jason, who was honestly much better off.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It was definatly emotional but we have yet to see if Joker is telling the truth. Alot of the theme of White Knight is that Batman hurts the city as much as the Joker does, just in a different way. Barbara and Dick pretty much laid out that to him in previous issues but of course his heart in the right when it comes to the city. 
> 
> Since WK will have a sequel at least i`m expecting Murphy to expand on Jason`s character arc.


That was Jack telling the story, so is true.

And personally I hope Murphy stays away of Jason on the sequels if it will once again the same old "Jason comes back to take revenge on Bruce" story.  He also failed to explain the reason for Jason and Dick swapping places as the First Robin since this reveal would've the same with Jason as the second Robin.

----------


## Aioros22

Jack was struggling to recall the details from Joker so I am willing to wait for the conclusion to see if Murphy does something with it. It's looking like he`s bound to use Jason so it really is about whether you are willing to follow suit. 

I didn`t like that he made Jason break up like that but that doesn`t necessarily mean there is no story to run with it. Murphy needs to sell me on it and I`m curious to see if he does. There`s hardly a lower point to go from here.

Right?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jack was struggling to recall the details from Joker so I am willing to wait for the conclusion to see if Murphy does something with it. It's looking like he`s bound to use Jason so it really is about whether you are willing to follow suit. 
> 
> I didn`t like that he made Jason break up like that but that doesn`t necessarily mean there is no story to run with it. Murphy needs to sell me on it and I`m curious to see if he does. There`s hardly a lower point to go from here.
> 
> Right?


Considering this is a story where Harley made a bunch of villains snort Clayface to mind control them, yeah, it could go much lower.

----------


## G-Potion

> That was Jack telling the story, so is true.
> 
> And personally I hope Murphy stays away of Jason on the sequels if it will once again the same old "Jason comes back to take revenge on Bruce" story.  He also failed to explain the reason for Jason and Dick swapping places as the First Robin since this reveal would've the same with Jason as the second Robin.


As he explained in his tweets, the swapped order was simply a mistake because he didn't know enough about the lore. Talk about anticlimatic.

----------


## G-Potion

Talking about his death... rumors creeping up again.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/04/04/b...d-ben-affleck/

https://heroichollywood.com/rumor-ma...on-todd-death/

EDIT: TheWarp says it's false. (But I'm not as disappointed as I could be. Not really feeling another version of Jason's death after WK.)

https://www.thewrap.com/batman-jason-todd-robin-death/

----------


## Mataza

> Another comic series I was enjoying just fine goes out of its way to disrespect Jasons time as Robin.


Its the joker tho, every member of the batfamily seems to be writen OOC in their interactions with him. I doubt anyone cares or gives it much thought anymore.

----------


## G-Potion

> Its the joker tho, every member of the batfamily seems to be writen OOC in their interactions with him. I doubt anyone cares or gives it much thought anymore.


That's true but in this instance it's still saddening because once again DC twisted Jason encounter with Joker into something not heroic, and we all saw how that has affected a whole generation of writers and readers into viewing him as the bad robin.

----------


## The Whovian

I didn't like the Jason reveal, but it isn't in continuity so there's at least that.

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> As he explained in his tweets, the swapped order was simply a mistake because he didn't know enough about the lore. Talk about anticlimatic.


Yeah, I wish he hadn't admitted that. I was actually okay with Jason being the first and understood why. 




> I didn't like the Jason reveal, but it isn't in continuity so there's at least that.


That's what I keep telling myself with every inane development.

----------


## Aioros22

> Talking about his death... rumors creeping up again.
> 
> http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/04/04/b...d-ben-affleck/
> 
> https://heroichollywood.com/rumor-ma...on-todd-death/
> 
> EDIT: TheWarp says it's false. (But I'm not as disappointed as I could be. Not really feeling another version of Jason's death after WK.)
> 
> https://www.thewrap.com/batman-jason-todd-robin-death/



According to uncle Joka, Jason is not dead  :Stick Out Tongue: 

In the DCU on the other hand we already know he did so the issue is how the event is portraited, as heroic sacrifice or not. 

What Murphy did is simply meh so far not because it makes him a "bad" Robin (he took the torture for hours - with little seen that's more than earned) but because he eventually gave in and seemingly called quits blaming Bruce, which is very a un-Jason thing to do. He's not alone either, Dick does basically the same in the Tynion Future.

----------


## Jovos2099

i dont complain  about series i dont read but i didnt like what i heard about white knight at the beginning now i feel vindicated with what the series did to jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> According to uncle Joka, Jason is not dead 
> 
> In the DCU on the other hand we already know he did so the issue is how the event is portraited, as heroic sacrifice or not. 
> 
> What Murphy did is simply meh so far not because it makes him a "bad" Robin (he took the torture for hours - with little seen that's more than earned) but because he eventually gave in and seemingly called quits blaming Bruce, which is very a un-Jason thing to do. He's not alone either, Dick does basically the same in the Tynion Future.


I meant to say Joker encounter but somehow wrote down Jason's death and only remembered to edit it in my other post.  :Big Grin: 

As for the DCU, I'm afraid it would still take away from the original just like how New 52 changed the details of his mother's betrayal, because it's a crucial point to argue that Jason _did not_ disobey Batman nor went against the Joker on his own. This change did nothing but absolved and made Batman look better than he did in DITF.

----------


## Zaresh

To be fair, it's not very different from what he did in the AK game, is it? There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name. I mean, that someone is stubborn and strong willed doesn't mean he cannot eventually fail under so much stress and all sorts of torture or after a little slip (which is what it seems to be the case here). And then, people can say really awful stuff when they feel hurt and vulnerable too, even when they don't mean it deep down.

(I mean, from the looks of what you people are telling here-- I've not read White Knight yet)

----------


## okiedokiewo

> To be fair, it's not very different from what he did in the AK game, is it? There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name. I mean, that someone is stubborn and strong willed doesn't mean he cannot eventually fail under so much stress and all sorts of torture or after a little slip (which is what it seems to be the case here). And then, people can say really awful stuff when they feel hurt and vulnerable too, even when they don't mean it deep down.
> 
> (I mean, from the looks of what you people are telling here-- I've not read White Knight yet)


Yeah, I agree with this comment. I don't really have a problem with White Knight and am interested to see where it goes.

----------


## Alycat

> As he explained in his tweets, the swapped order was simply a mistake because he didn't know enough about the lore. Talk about anticlimatic.


lmao that makes it worse becuase I re,eber people questioning the point of the swap. The robin order is pretty important IMO and yes this is pretty anticlimatic.

----------


## G-Potion

> lmao that makes it worse becuase I re,eber people questioning the point of the swap. The robin order is pretty important IMO and yes this is pretty anticlimatic.


He knew the order I think. It's after he threw the Jason Todd easter egg that he realized timeline wise,  it would be impossible with the default robin order.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> To be fair, it's not very different from what he did in the AK game, is it? There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name. I mean, that someone is stubborn and strong willed doesn't mean he cannot eventually fail under so much stress and all sorts of torture or after a little slip (which is what it seems to be the case here). And then, people can say really awful stuff when they feel hurt and vulnerable too, even when they don't mean it deep down.
> 
> (I mean, from the looks of what you people are telling here-- I've not read White Knight yet)


I agree. I didn't find it to be all that bad to be honest because it doesn't matter how strong you are or how stubborn if you are tortured for long enough, as Jason was both here and in AK, you will break eventually. The fact that he held out is a testament to Jason's strength of will, loyalty and all around stubbornness so I don't even see it as his being depicted here as the "bad" Robin because he "couldn't stand up to a little torture". In all honesty even Batman, in spite of all his training, could be broken if he was tortured for long enough assuming the writer was actually trying to be in the least bit factual about it.

----------


## G-Potion

I should have explained myself better but alas I'm too lazy to write more than two sentences on a phone. I don't mean to say Jason was a bad robin as depicted in WK (haven't read it tbh). More like, I'm a bit tired of seeing Jason, again, used as a casualty to elevate Batman's man pain, and so the characteristics that make Jason who he is are sadly taking a back seat. I miss the heroism and noble sacrifice that was in DIFT. If there were more of that, he wouldn't be as misunderstood.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's the thing, going by the accounts on issue 2 and issue 7, The Joker broke Jason's will in a _single night_ no months of torture.

And AK was equally as dumb simply with the fact they put Jason on the Asylum the entire time he was tortured, despite exploration being a huge factor on the Arkham games (or the fact Bruce built a freaking Batcave underneath the Asylum), makes the whole thing unbelievable even for comic book standards and makes Bruce an even bigger ass than normal.

----------


## Zaresh

> I should have explained myself better but alas I'm too lazy to write more than two sentences on a phone. I don't mean to say Jason was a bad robin as depicted in WK (haven't read it tbh). More like, I'm a bit tired of seeing Jason, again, used as a casualty to elevate Batman's man pain, and so the characteristics that make Jason who he is are sadly taking a back seat. I miss the heroism and noble sacrifice that was in DIFT. If there were more of that, he wouldn't be as misunderstood.


Well, I think we did discuss this point a few weeks ago, too (or maybe I did so somewhere else, idk, tbh. But I recall talking about this very same matter not long ago). But it is to be expected in Batman books. They're aimed to Batman fans who expect to read about their (supposedly) favourite character, so of course every emotional aspect is going to be centered around him, for his drama and apotheosis arc development. It's in no way fair; and because not every writer is good enough, it's almost always in detriment of the supporting cast or even other main characters. I honestly hate it, but unfortunately it is how it is, almost always. In DITF, the writer did work towards Jason's own drama and resolution because the character was going to be picture out of the books: it's what they wanted to do with that story as far as I know, either by being seriously injured or dead. But in the end it was a tool for Bruce's own tragedy, even in that same story. So...

Here, by what people say about WK, the (literal, in every sense) hero and main character is Jack, not even the Joker. So it wouldn't surprise me if the device of Jason's trials and death were for Jack's service. Batman seems to be also a tool for his story, but given how prominent his profile is, I can easily see Jason being used for Bruce's drama as well (I think the word for what I'm trying to say is "his pathos", but I'm not sure. I suck at this technical stuff).

It sucks, yeah, and it's going to happen until Jason gets to be more famous among all kinds of fans. At least in those books that are centered around Batman alone.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I should have explained myself better but alas I'm too lazy to write more than two sentences on a phone. I don't mean to say Jason was a bad robin as depicted in WK (haven't read it tbh). More like, I'm a bit tired of seeing Jason, again, used as a casualty to elevate Batman's man pain, and so the characteristics that make Jason who he is are sadly taking a back seat. I miss the heroism and noble sacrifice that was in DIFT. If there were more of that, he wouldn't be as misunderstood.


I understand. I hate trying to type out posts on my phone too.  :Smile:  Anyway I understand you point but since this is an out of continuity story I'd rather see something different than the same story over and over again. I do agree, however, that the heroism of DITF needs to be played up more. Jason gave his life for his mother but you hardly ever see it acknowledged by writers.

----------


## Zaresh

> I understand. I hate trying to type out posts on my phone too.  Anyway I understand you point but since this is an out of continuity story I'd rather see something different than the same story over and over again. I do agree, however, that the heroism of DITF needs to be played up more. Jason gave his life for his mother but you hardly ever see it acknowledged by writers.


Bombshells was sweeeeet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Bombshells was sweeeeet.


Yes, it was. I really loved that depiction of him.

----------


## Aioros22

> To be fair, it's not very different from what he did in the AK game, is it? There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name. I mean, that someone is stubborn and strong willed doesn't mean he cannot eventually fail under so much stress and all sorts of torture or after a little slip (which is what it seems to be the case here). And then, people can say really awful stuff when they feel hurt and vulnerable too, even when they don't mean it deep down.
> 
> (I mean, from the looks of what you people are telling here-- I've not read White Knight yet)


The angle in AK and Genesis is better because he was brainwashed to an extended period of time to become Joker's legacy and Batman never found him. 

Yes I know the part about them staying hidden in Arkham is bad writting but that can easily be fixed. Locate it somewhere else. Presto!

Murphy needs to expand it from Jason's pov for us to see the whole picture but who knows if he will.

----------


## Aioros22

> I should have explained myself better but alas I'm too lazy to write more than two sentences on a phone. I don't mean to say Jason was a bad robin as depicted in WK (haven't read it tbh). More like, I'm a bit tired of seeing Jason, again, used as a casualty to elevate Batman's man pain, and so the characteristics that make Jason who he is are sadly taking a back seat. I miss the heroism and noble sacrifice that was in DIFT. If there were more of that, he wouldn't be as misunderstood.


I do agree with that. They hardly touch on Catherine even is she is somehow there. It's nice that Jason has called on his own responsabilities over his death but the often not mentioned component is that it didn't happen because him or the Joker. It happened because of a mother. I can even understand the ommition, it makes Jason's conflit with Batman and the Joker all about themselves but at a cost.

----------


## Alycat

> The angle in AK and Genesis is better because he was brainwashed to an extended period of time to become Joker's legacy and Batman never found him. 
> 
> Yes I know the part about them staying hidden in Arkham is bad writting but that can easily be fixed. Locate it somewhere else. Presto!
> 
> Murphy needs to expand it from Jason's pov for us to see the whole picture but who knows if he will.



Yeah, minus the location, I thought AK handled that situation really well.  Tbh I find it to be even worse than comic Jasons situation in many ways.

----------


## G-Potion

> Bombshells was sweeeeet.


Yesss! Perfect example of a story being everyone's story.

----------


## G-Potion

> It sucks, yeah, and it's going to happen until Jason gets to be more famous among all kinds of fans. At least in those books that are centered around Batman alone.


Unless there's something similar to Bombshell in term of care for the character, we pretty much depend on Red Hood to gain him those fans because DC has so far refused to give any other depictions of robin than 'the one who died', especially in the high profile books.   :Frown:

----------


## Powertool

To be honest, I don't understand all the criticism directed at Murphy's depiction of Jason in the last issue of White Knight.

From the very beginning the series was presented as an author going full iconoclastic on the Batman mythos to show that you just have to go _juuust a little_ beyond the glitter of the character's aura to see that the quintessential male empowerment fantasy is actually a miserable pathetic failure, wrapped in loathing and hatred, bound to die a cold death alone in the middle of the night.

In this context, Jason's regretting having even met the man who turned him into his precious little child soldier cannot be framed as anything as him seeing the light. And I personally applaud the author's guts for going all-in with this particular corollary of the dismantling of the Batman mythos.  :Smile:  Sometimes seeing something I'm used to from a completely different perspective is really refreshing, at least if such a perspective is crafted as well as Murphy's.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> To be honest, I don't understand all the criticism directed at Murphy's depiction of Jason in the last issue of White Knight.
> 
> From the very beginning the series was presented as an author going full iconoclastic on the Batman mythos to show that you just have to go _juuust a little_ beyond the glitter of the character's aura to see that the quintessential male empowerment fantasy is actually a miserable pathetic failure, wrapped in loathing and hatred, bound to die a cold death alone in the middle of the night.
> 
> In this context, Jason's regretting having even met the man who turned him into his precious little child soldier cannot be framed as anything as him seeing the light. And I personally applaud the author's guts for going all-in with this particular corollary of the dismantling of the Batman mythos.  Sometimes seeing something I'm used to from a completely different perspective is really refreshing, at least if such a perspective is crafted as well as Murphy's.


But that is the thing, is not a refreshing take nor an innovative one. Is just a lazy take on the same idea already explored by the Arkham game (clumsy as they were) that doesn't offer anything of note to Murphy's narrative beyond a cheap, "shocking" moment.

----------


## Alycat

> To be honest, I don't understand all the criticism directed at Murphy's depiction of Jason in the last issue of White Knight.
> 
> From the very beginning the series was presented as an author going full iconoclastic on the Batman mythos to show that you just have to go _juuust a little_ beyond the glitter of the character's aura to see that the quintessential male empowerment fantasy is actually a miserable pathetic failure, wrapped in loathing and hatred, bound to die a cold death alone in the middle of the night.
> 
> In this context, Jason's regretting having even met the man who turned him into his precious little child soldier cannot be framed as anything as him seeing the light. And I personally applaud the author's guts for going all-in with this particular corollary of the dismantling of the Batman mythos.  Sometimes seeing something I'm used to from a completely different perspective is really refreshing, at least if such a perspective is crafted as well as Murphy's.


I'm tired of that take on Batman too. It doesnt add anything for me and I don't get the obsession with dismantling and subversion. Its not gutsy anymore either nor is it done better than the ones before it.

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhKSmBcn...ernandez_comic

Is Javier Fernandez the artist for the Red Hood/Anarky thing? More importantly, is that _a white streak_?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## kiwiliko

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BhKSmBcn...ernandez_comic
> 
> Is Javier Fernandez the artist for the Red Hood/Anarky thing? More importantly, is that _a white streak_?


I'm very entertained by the dreamworks face he's pulling here  :Big Grin:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Bear in mind, Zack is not the kind of guy to push his ideas on someone else, he'd rather hear what others think of his ideas.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://www.instagram.com/p/BhKSmBcn...ernandez_comic
> 
> Is Javier Fernandez the artist for the Red Hood/Anarky thing? More importantly, is that _a white streak_?


Could be a light effect for the colorist. Look at the helmet, same kind of thing.
Nice to see he's not cloning his Dick, btw. Even his face shape looks different.

----------


## Aioros22

> Bear in mind, Zack is not the kind of guy to push his ideas on someone else, he'd rather hear what others think of his ideas.


What is he really going at here? Playing the validation of either working in his story?

----------


## Alycat

Boy that would add on to the dumpster fire that is currently the DCEU. Also pretty sure Nightwing is supposed to be getting a movie someday maybe, so it wouldn't work in this story. Unless they were just combining both characters.

----------


## Restingvoice

Wasn't it confirmed in the making-of book that is Jason Todd? 
I think he's just revealing the idea he had early on. That he considered it's Dick.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Wasn't it confirmed in the making-of book that is Jason Todd? 
> I think he's just revealing the idea he had early on. That he considered it's Dick.


All I know is a tour guide saying it, which isn't exactly official. But maybe someone else can confirm what you're asking.

----------


## Aahz

> Wasn't it confirmed in the making-of book that is Jason Todd? 
> I think he's just revealing the idea he had early on. That he considered it's Dick.


I actually think that they still haven't really fixed who the dead Robin is, and that it will be still up to the writer/director who is going to tell that story.

----------


## Alycat

> I actually think that they still haven't really fixed who the dead Robin is, and that it will be still up to the writer/director who is going to tell that story.


If that Nightwing movie is gonna happen, then they should really leave it s Jason, so that they can hopefully tell a good Red Hood story.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> What is he really going at here?* Playing the validation of either working in his story?*


Exactly that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Exactly that.


Based on this information alone I guess the DCEU is going to continue on isn't it? It's not going to be scrapped because of Justice League's poor reception? And I guess it could mean a live action adaptation of Under the Hood. It should suit Snyder's generally gritty and realistic style.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Based on this information alone I guess the DCEU is going to continue on isn't it? It's not going to be scrapped because of Justice League's poor reception? And I guess it could mean a live action adaptation of Under the Hood. It should suit Snyder's generally gritty and realistic style.


Snyder is out and other than Aquaman, WW2, SS2 and Shazam there's no real info on what will happen with the DCEU.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Snyder is out and other than Aquaman, WW2, SS2 and Shazam there's no real info on what will happen with the DCEU.


I thought he was done mourning the loss of his daughter and came back? Then again after Justice League's failure I guess it should be expected but then again Joss Whedon just made things worse but changing parts of the film. Well to hope that Under the Hood gets adapted could be hoping for too much I'd say either Titans or Young Justice has a better chance of adapting Under the Hood than the DCEU. And in either scenario I'd say Jason would antagonise the Titans and Team instead of Bruce. But would anyone want that though?

----------


## Caivu

DARKANGEL-LEVY colored the Rafael Gumboc sketch cover posted some pages back:

Screenshot_20180406-114645.jpg

----------


## Alycat

> I thought he was done mourning the loss of his daughter and came back? Then again after Justice League's failure I guess it should be expected but then again Joss Whedon just made things worse but changing parts of the film. Well to hope that Under the Hood gets adapted could be hoping for too much I'd say either Titans or Young Justice has a better chance of adapting Under the Hood than the DCEU. And in either scenario I'd say Jason would antagonise the Titans and Team instead of Bruce. But would anyone want that though?


Snyder was doing a terrible job so I don't see why he would be back. We have no idea if Joss made things better or worse though so I have no idea why he gets so much of the blame on Justice League. I feel like of the 3 options YJ has the best chance of having better writing. But I'm also unsure of it juggling that storyline among so many characters.

----------


## Assam

> Snyder was doing a terrible job so I don't see why he would be back. We have no idea if Joss made things better or worse though so I have no idea why he gets so much of the blame on Justice League. I feel like of the 3 options YJ has the best chance of having better writing. But I'm also unsure of it juggling that storyline among so many characters.


If you want to see YJ do _Under the Red Hood_, check out YJ Abridged, which I've come to vastly prefer to the original series. It puts enough unique spins on the story that it's different from the movie, the pathos is maintained despite the humor and through some clever editing, they even managed to include the Outlaws.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Snyder was doing a terrible job so I don't see why he would be back. We have no idea if Joss made things better or worse though so I have no idea why he gets so much of the blame on Justice League. I feel like of the 3 options YJ has the best chance of having better writing. But I'm also unsure of it juggling that storyline among so many characters.


Well when Snyder left it came down to Joss Whedon to finalise everything so he might have caused some problems with the final product possibly creating a movie with clashing visions. Weisman is a good writer and Under the Hood could be adapted as a sub-plot actually. But given how the failure of the second season was using all the new characters effectively so yeah I the problem with adapting Under the Hood for Young Justice. But it could be done in subsequent seasons.

----------


## Alycat

> If you want to see YJ do _Under the Red Hood_, check out YJ Abridged, which I've come to vastly prefer to the original series. It puts enough unique spins on the story that it's different from the movie, the pathos is maintained despite the humor and through some clever editing, they even managed to include the Outlaws.


I've seen it and I think its neat, but I find some of the changes they made to be too jarring.




> Well when Snyder left it came down to Joss Whedon to finalise everything so he might have caused some problems with the final product possibly creating a movie with clashing visions. Weisman is a good writer and Under the Hood could be adapted as a sub-plot actually. But given how the failure of the second season was using all the new characters effectively so yeah I the problem with adapting Under the Hood for Young Justice. But it could be done in subsequent seasons.


My thing is though that people seem to be under some weird belief that Snyders version as good when most everything points to the opposite and Joss being brought in to clean it up. I don't even like Whedon that much, but his work on Superman for instance was clearly an improvement.

Yep, your entire point about S2 is why I would worry about them adapting the plot. So many characters got the shaft that season.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Snyder work was actually wonderful and a bold take on the characters.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My thing is though that people seem to be under some weird belief that Snyders version as good when most everything points to the opposite and Joss being brought in to clean it up. I don't even like Whedon that much, but his work on Superman for instance was clearly an improvement.
> 
> Yep, your entire point about S2 is why I would worry about them adapting the plot. So many characters got the shaft that season.


Yet when it came out Justice League had a generally mixed reception either Whedon couldn't improve Snyder's vision or they used it to the hilt. Well Young Justice is going to air on Netflix which means no commercial breaks so there might be more room for characters to shine although it might not change because there are plans for the old characters as well.

----------


## Alycat

> Snyder work was actually wonderful and a bold take on the characters.


I fully disagree with that but whats done is done.




> Yet when it came out Justice League had a generally mixed reception either Whedon couldn't improve Snyder's vision or they used it to the hilt. Well Young Justice is going to air on Netflix which means no commercial breaks so there might be more room for characters to shine although it might not change because there are plans for the old characters as well.


I thought it and Titans was suppose to be on DCs supposed streaming service? I'mma be mad if the older teammates get the shaft for the new ones.

----------


## Aioros22

> Exactly that.


In context he`s not wrong but I stand against overlapping the characters history too much. Bruce losing Jason sets up the dinamic reationships between Bruce, Jay and the Joker in a way it won`t with the others, not to mention. While for one it is a beginning of a Journey, for the other it would be merely the ending. There`s no story to go from Dick dying. 

Of course Snyder was not obliged to use the trope as nothing more than that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I thought it and Titans was suppose to be on DCs supposed streaming service? I'mma be mad if the older teammates get the shaft for the new ones.


Oh my mistake then, and I'm pretty sure the old characters are venturing down black ops territory based on the stills that showed them all dressed in black instead of their costumes so their roles could be significant. And I am sure the new guys will get their due in the mean time.

----------


## Powertool

> But that is the thing, is not a refreshing take nor an innovative one. Is just a lazy take on the same idea already explored by the Arkham game (clumsy as they were) that doesn't offer anything of note to Murphy's narrative beyond a cheap, "shocking" moment.





> I'm tired of that take on Batman too. It doesnt add anything for me and I don't get the obsession with dismantling and subversion. Its not gutsy anymore either nor is it done better than the ones before it.


Ah.

Care to make any example of similar takes?

Because I really can't find recent examples. Just on the main title we've had years and years of Morrison, Snyder and King jerking off on a calendar where every month featured a Caped Crusader in various state of undress, collecting the result of such actions on sheets of paper and calling them scripts, which is, like, the opposite of Murphy's approach. Where's the iconoclastic take on the Batman mythos, then? On _Detective Comics_? Nobody comes out in a good shape from that comic book, because Tynion's just that hopeless when it comes to give characters any kind of depth that has to last for more than one issue. On the _Justice League_ titles? Even when every other Leaguer had all the reasons in the world to be pissed off at Bruce (i.e. that very famous arc during Waid's run) the narrative always shies away from presenting him as dead wrong. 

Where is this idea of Batman not being that great force of Good explored, then? On the pages of _Trinity_? Of _Red Hood and the Outlaws_? Of _Super Sons_? Where?

----------


## RedBird

> To be fair, it's not very different from what he did in the AK game, is it? There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name. I mean, that someone is stubborn and strong willed doesn't mean he cannot eventually fail under so much stress and all sorts of torture or after a little slip (which is what it seems to be the case here). And then, people can say really awful stuff when they feel hurt and vulnerable too, even when they don't mean it deep down.
> 
> (I mean, from the looks of what you people are telling here-- I've not read White Knight yet)


Well that's the thing, its an almost similar scenario, with vastly different results, ones that fail to note any of the integrity behind Jasons character and mischaracterisze him in order to serve as more angst fuel for Bruce......Once again. Where as AK did not need to sacrifice Jason endurance, willpower and loyalty with how the writers set the stage in that story, plus they still got filled their quota of man pain.

There's three main differences here;

One, instead of months and months (nearly a year) of being tortured both physically and psychologically, displaying how prominent and strong those qualities of Jasons I listed above are, in WK he breaks down in only a matter of hours, not even one night. Its not that people should be expected to withstand torture as a given, but its kind of a pathetic difference compared to his AK counterpart.

Second, when the break down happens in AK, notice that its all constructed by the Joker. Its made pretty clear that the whole speech Jason has to perform, (about who he is and who he hates) is scripted by the Joker, and is been forced out of Jason after those months of torture. And what does the WK version do? In that one, Joker just asks for Jasons last words, he doesn't ask for a confession, no reveal about Bruces identity, no sign of manipulating Jason into claiming he hates Bruce. Jason in that verse just lets loose, a 'screw Bruce Wayne' out of nowhere. Again, you have one version of the character that withstands almost a year of torture to protect the identity of those around him, and another who lets loose and just blabs it after less than a night, with again, NO prompting unlike his counterpart.

Thirdly, speaking of Bruces name drop




> There he succumbed to torture after months and was going to give Joker Bruce's name.


Not really? I mean, notice how there's nothing to suggest that was the definite path. Jason didn't say Bruces name. Not even partially.

See, and this was something small but important that I really liked from Rocksteadys writers, in that moment, at the end of that scripted 'confession' when Joker asks Jason about Bruces identity he pulls a gun and shoots him before Jason has the chance to _not only_ reveal it, but to _even imply_ that that was what he was about to say. If the scene was only shaped around the Joker cutting him off, shockingly, then the dialogue would have made it more obvious by making Jason say something like "of course sir, its Bru..." and then having Joker shoot him, simply displaying how he doesn't want to hear it. Its what I was honestly expecting in the moment. But Jason is cut off at the word 'its' with no indication about what he was about to say, its left intentionally vague, and it was great. It meant that EVEN at the end, Jasons loyalty to Bruce and integrity as a character was not directly shown to be tarnished or broken by the Joker, since we are left never knowing what his intentions in that moment truly were. Was he going to say Bruces full name? Was he going to lie? Who knows? Again, compare it with WK which had Jason just say Bruces full name, with nothing that forced his hand to say it, and nothing to indicate that was what would have ended his pain, he reveals that information simply to his own accord.


Seriously, as much as it sucks since it further pollutes the minds of most fans and worst of all dc writers, I'm pretty used to Jasons time as Robin being defiled this way, as G-Potion mentioned, with having his ACTUAL qualities as a character take a back seat all for the 'drama'. I just don't think I'd have been this adamant against this particular (WK) portrayal if it hadn't been for the fact that we just received a similar and more superior version just a few years ago in AK. :/ 


At least AK was way more popular and well known, so there's a positive.

----------


## RedBird

> Based on this information alone I guess the DCEU is going to continue on isn't it? It's not going to be scrapped because of Justice League's poor reception? And I guess it could mean a live action adaptation of Under the Hood. It should suit Snyder's generally gritty and realistic style.


Wasn't there talk about a flashpoint movie thing happening that would 'reset' the DCEU so they could sort of 'organically' start over?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Wasn't there talk about a flashpoint movie thing happening that would 'reset' the DCEU so they could sort of 'organically' start over?


That's what I heard but if DC still wants to produce more movies with the same actors and actresses then I doubt Flashpoint was going to reset it assuming Flashpoint takes palce after all these movies have come out and that's a lot of money to lose/

----------


## Zaresh

For me it was pretty clear that Jason was about to say Bruce's name, *@RedBird.*. It was what the writers seem to pursue planting into the watcher, the feeling that Jason was going to give up; hence what he was going to do. And the impact was even bigger by making him shoot Jason before he even got to start saying, in order to show Jokers disregard for the actual info because he just wanted to destroy him (in fact, that also was also the other point behind the whole scene). It's not as much about the hypothetic "what we saw and didn't" as it is "what was the intended impression in the player behind that scene".

Of course, this is just my opinion.
And your other points, I see them and take them.
(I know my English is pretty broken in this message, but forgive me: I didn't sleep much and usually that makes my vocabulary and grammar go and run deep down the toilet).

----------


## RedBird

> For me it was pretty clear that Jason was about to say Bruce's name, *@RedBird.*. It was what the writers seem to pursue planting into the watcher, the feeling that Jason was going to give up; hence what he was going to do. And the impact was even bigger by making him shoot Jason before he even got to start saying, in order to show Jokers disregard for the actual info because he just wanted to destroy him (in fact, that also was also the other point behind the whole scene). It's not as much about the hypothetic "what we saw and didn't" as it is "what was the intended impression in the player behind that scene".
> 
> Of course, this is just my opinion.
> And your other points, I see them and take them.
> (I know my English is pretty broken in this message, but forgive me: I didn't sleep much and usually that makes my vocabulary and grammar go and run deep down the toilet).


Don't get wrong, what you are saying right now is the beauty of the scene, and why I like it. The fact that, yeah, you could totally could think that he was about to reveal it, or you could think, nah, maybe he wasn't going to after all.

Whats intended in the scene, is just to shock the player by Jasons 'death' scene, but the fact that they (the writers) still don't *fully* give into your expectations and give a straight answer is what I really liked. Because Jason doesn't even get to start saying anything, you can walk away with either answers (or more) in mind.

Also, no worries mate, your English is great  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Don't get wrong, what you are saying right now is the beauty of the scene, and why I like it. The fact that, yeah, you could totally could think that he was about to reveal it, or you could think, nah, maybe he wasn't going to after all.
> 
> Whats intended in the scene, is just to shock the player by Jasons 'death' scene, but the fact that they (the writers) still don't *fully* give into your expectations and give a straight answer is what I really liked. Because Jason doesn't even get to start saying anything, you can walk away with either answers (or more) in mind.


Oh, I see. 




> Also, no worries mate, your English is great


Take that, English teachers!!! Hmph!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Don't get wrong, what you are saying right now is the beauty of the scene, and why I like it. The fact that, yeah, you could totally could think that he was about to reveal it, or you could think, nah, maybe he wasn't going to after all.
> 
> Whats intended in the scene, is just to shock the player by Jasons 'death' scene, but the fact that they (the writers) still don't *fully* give into your expectations and give a straight answer is what I really liked. Because Jason doesn't even get to start saying anything, you can walk away with either answers (or more) in mind.


I agree. I love that the developer intentionally left it on that note so it's equally valid whichever take you make on this scene. Even if the take is Jason letting the secret out at last it was more sympathetic because his whole torture has been a deliberate one aimed to brainwashed him into hating Bruce, a plan J as Joker put it. Genesis supported that point pretty well with the fake Batmen coming in to torture him. White Knight coming after AK is only a slap to the face as it's inferior in every aspect concerning Jason.

Also, in the drill battle, Jason said something like "Don't worry, Bruce, I kept some secrets to myself." Maybe he did?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## TheCape

The beauty of ambiguity  :Smile: .

Anyway as for the Sean's book, i think that is fine for what it is, i'm not a big fan deconstruction recently (thanks to the The Last Jedi for the most part of you want to call it that) but Murphy pretty much said than that with his intention from the beggining and sadly Jason is usually the strongest argument against Batman entire existence is bane on the characther that was put on him.since that fateful day in 1988. Not of my liking but hardly surprising.

----------


## G-Potion

Red Hood IT, out on April 10th!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

Ha, saw the Nightwing guy in there.

----------


## RedBird

Wow, I like that idea about the villians of Gotham all being a separate part of one entity or nightmare. Has that ever been explored before?
Also its really great to see the passion and hard work behind these short films.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

Jason Toddler
midori-da

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason Toddler
> midori-da


Ha, so adorable!  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Wow, I like that idea about the villians of Gotham all being a separate part of one entity or nightmare. Has that ever been explored before?
> Also its really great to see the passion and hard work behind these short films.


First time as far as I know.

Me as well, I get very excited for fanfilms because more than the time and resources it takes to make, seeing people who are passionate about the characters come together is what I like most about them.

----------


## Aioros22

They're creative with what little they got. Sometimes it's straight out adaptation but others go this route in exploring new narratives.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Ha, saw the Nightwing guy in there.


Their concept behind Pennywise being a lot of these different villains is kind of interesting, but at the same time it takes away from the individuality of these characters. Still interesting though. 

Their take on Jason is is still bland. To say that their doing something new and different, but at the same time calling him grunge and broken contradicts that.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s just not fresh narrative as Pennywise usage in comparison from a starting point but I`m not sure how bland it`s supposed to be. Jason has been those things and you`ve had good stories with it. 

It`s a two-fold narrative issue. Will it be boring or well written? Will it push new boundaries or just stay as a good concept?

----------


## kiwiliko

As someone who skim reads too fast and hasn't seen the IT movie, I too spent the last few pages convinced this was about Jason doing a job in info tech. (Also having done a job with databases, the clown is not nearly as odd an occurrence as you think)

In all honestly I was ready to go for it. You could pitch some kind of brooklyn 99 style sit com about the whole bat family working their messy little office lives and I'd probably still watch it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Their concept behind Pennywise being a lot of these different villains is kind of interesting, but at the same time it takes away from the individuality of these characters. Still interesting though. 
> 
> Their take on Jason is is still bland. To say that their doing something new and different, but at the same time calling him grunge and broken contradicts that.


Doesn't mean that you can't write grunge and broken without any depth or creativity. You also ignored the part where they said for each character he interacts with, they would show a different aspect of his character. In any case, why not reserve judgement for the real product? A featurette is hardly conclusive of what their take on Jason would be.

----------


## The Dying Detective

If DC were to allow a Red Hood Black Label graphic novel what should it be like?

----------


## kiwiliko

> If DC were to allow a Red Hood Black Label graphic novel what should it be like?


I'm actually wondering if someone can better explain what the Black Label means. So far I like some of the ideas and I like the freedom they have without canon attached but that sounds more like Elseworlds so is one of the other differences that Black Label is more likely to have higher age restrictions?

If Black Label ever does happen for Jason I think I wouldn't mind seeing some oneshots about stuff he did with the LoA or expanding more on his apparent globetrotting shopping spree for killer teachers. Lost Days felt so very short for covering all that development he could've had and a oneshot/short stories format can be used for more than just telling a canon divergent idea for a characters future days. Would be nice to see some stories that snapshot someone's past or fill in gaps without the pressure of introducing large high stakes plots the way canon might demand.

----------


## kiwiliko

Alsooo

http://waiting4codot.tumblr.com/post...with-jason-and

I love all the fanvids and how much passion going into the fanwork posted here so here's a bit of appreciation for the talents in voice acting.
This is for anyone who has ever needed to hear a Batman voice say the words "beesechurger" featuring terrible son Jason and tired dad Bruce.

----------


## Kaled

My understanding of Black Label is that it takes familiar DC characters and puts them in Elseworlds like stories but aimed at an adult audience. That being said I think Red Hood would work as a contract killer or government assassin under the Black Label imprint.

----------


## G-Potion

And here it is!

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Aioros22

Ah, so that's what they meant by grunge. Pearl Jam Jay. Staying alive Josh(Joker), aliveeeee. 

My thoughs after seeing the first part:

. Firstly, anyone familiar with the character this past decade may be taken back by how violent he acts here. I know I was and I already knew about it but by the end it didn't upset me for varying reasons. One namely that that aspect of the character is always seemingly the jumping start point and as the aesthetic proves to be quite popular with filmakers. Two, because going by Jason and Dick's dialogue this fits pretty much in a timetable of a following month after the ending of UTRH and Jay is still obssessed after Joker and seemingly targers after Associates and gangs. 

. Secondly, you get to see the other Jason when he finds the girl. How he reacts and deals with a victim is instantly humanizing and off the bat is ready to shield her when someone is about to come from the door. Pretty straight character dichotomy for viewers. That's my favorite bit because you actually do not see it coming given how brutal his introduction is. 

What I like the least is Jason's design choices himself. I may not be fair here since most budget surely went for the sound design, the helmet effects and IT himself which I agree have to be major selling points but apart from not being big on likeness, the iron man voice or chest armors I have to put the finger in the elephant in the room and just point out how the sneakers are just silly. A character like Jay would never wear something so impratical in a one man war. It may look a small detail but it sticks like a sore thumb. Get the man some boots!

As of now I feel the visual cues of the character are among the weakest of the fan films I've seen but character wise the dichotomy is presented in a way it usually isn't in other projects and I find the inclusion of Pennywise fvcking interesting.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> My understanding of Black Label is that it takes familiar DC characters and puts them in Elseworlds like stories but aimed at an adult audience. That being said I think Red Hood would work as a contract killer or government assassin under the Black Label imprint.


Or you could do a story where Jason is a soldier in World War II as a man who infiltrates the Nazi party. You could even do a Gotham by Gaslight story where Jason is a young street thug who joins the criminal underworld to take down James Moriarty.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm actually wondering if someone can better explain what the Black Label means. So far I like some of the ideas and I like the freedom they have without canon attached but that sounds more like Elseworlds so is one of the other differences that Black Label is more likely to have higher age restrictions?
> 
> If Black Label ever does happen for Jason I think I wouldn't mind seeing some oneshots about stuff he did with the LoA or expanding more on his apparent globetrotting shopping spree for killer teachers. Lost Days felt so very short for covering all that development he could've had and a oneshot/short stories format can be used for more than just telling a canon divergent idea for a characters future days. Would be nice to see some stories that snapshot someone's past or fill in gaps without the pressure of introducing large high stakes plots the way canon might demand.


Black label is restricted to telling Elseworld style tales in a mature tone actually. I doubt you will see Lost Days because it's a continuity based story. I wonder whether if it's possible to write Jason in an Ink story though?

----------


## Aioros22

Anyone following Titans? This is the best arc of the entire book so far. It may not be saying much but Roy at least has been on fire instead of the usual driving nostalgia kick that's been boring for months and months. 

It also fits nicely in current Outlaw fashion. Grit, standing by what you believe and your evidence whether the babysitters say yes or no and taking down the big bad hard without having to kill them even when it looks like they do. 

Or as a recent debate has told us, polite or agressive use of lethal force ;p

----------


## Aahz

> My understanding of Black Label is that it takes familiar DC characters and puts them in Elseworlds like stories but aimed at an adult audience. That being said I think Red Hood would work as a contract killer or government assassin under the Black Label imprint.


I think it is also supposed to kind a premium label, where big name creators can do elseworld stories. (And my suspicion is that a big goal is to create more stories that sell well as graphic novels on the book market).

----------


## Alycat

> Anyone following Titans? This is the best arc of the entire book so far. It may not be saying much but Roy at least has been on fire instead of the usual driving nostalgia kick that's been boring for months and months. 
> 
> It also fits nicely in current Outlaw fashion. Grit, standing by what you believe and your evidence whether the babysitters say yes or no and taking down the big bad hard without having to kill them even when it looks like they do. 
> 
> Or as a recent debate has told us, polite or agressive use of lethal force ;p


Nah, I find it pretty terrible and now know that the Titans curse is still going strong. Glad Roy is getting more than 5 lines an issue now though!

----------


## Aioros22

> Nah, I find it pretty terrible and now know that the Titans curse is still going strong. Glad Roy is getting more than 5 lines an issue now though!


He's not getting five lines, he's kicking ass and he's in the right which is more than you can say about any book lead up to this point. 

It is a cursed book but this arc had been nice and will likely end up being the only highlight.

----------


## Alycat

> He's not getting five lines, he's kicking ass and he's in the right which is more than you can say about any book lead up to this point. 
> 
> It is a cursed book but this arc had been nice and will likely end up being the only highlight.


Yeah my only real problem now is that I think the art is kinda meh and well everyone else.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ah, so that's what they meant by grunge. Pearl Jam Jay. Staying alive Josh(Joker), aliveeeee. 
> 
> My thoughs after seeing the first part:
> 
> . Firstly, anyone familiar with the character this past decade may be taken back by how violent he acts here. I know I was and I already knew about it but by the end it didn't upset me for varying reasons. One namely that that aspect of the character is always seemingly the jumping start point and as the aesthetic proves to be quite popular with filmakers. Two, because going by Jason and Dick's dialogue this fits pretty much in a timetable of a following month after the ending of UTRH and Jay is still obssessed after Joker and seemingly targers after Associates and gangs.


In the Ismahalk Talk, the guys were well aware of potentially losing audience's sympathy going that route but they went for it anyway. When I watched it, I was like, 'Oh so he's _at that stage_' and conceded that while I didn't like that it happened, I had to admit a Jason at one point of life would do this so it's not like it's out of character for him. However, the Nightwing scene happened and I was so glad for it, because Jason's method was being questioned, and it means development is on the way if there is a 2nd episode.




> . Secondly, you get to see the other Jason when he finds the girl. How he reacts and deals with a victim is instantly humanizing and off the bat is ready to shield her when someone is about to come from the door. Pretty straight character dichotomy for viewers. That's my favorite bit because you actually do not see it coming given how brutal his introduction is.


My favorite bit as well. Because the acting was so good by everyone all around. I love that in the haste to chase after Pennywise, there was a hesitation at first before he decided to go back to the girl. At that point I thought it fitting with the image I had so far of him, so hell bent on eliminating the threat. Then he started walking back, talking and comforting her, and from that point on, the gentleness it showed was  such a huge contradiction to what had been observed.




> What I like the least is Jason's design choices himself. I may not be fair here since most budget surely went for the sound design, the helmet effects and IT himself which I agree have to be major selling points but apart from not being big on likeness, the iron man voice or chest armors I have to put the finger in the elephant in the room and just point out how the sneakers are just silly. A character like Jay would never wear something so impratical in a one man war. It may look a small detail but it sticks like a sore thumb. Get the man some boots!


The sneakers threw me off as well, and many others from what I've seen in the comments. I get that they wanted to go for a 'poor' vigilante angle, they even said so in reply to said comments, but I just can't buy it. If he could manage his whole getup, then surely combat boots are not so out of reach!!

----------


## Aioros22

I get that he needs to fund for himself but we just see him targetting three joes and all, presumely, wearing combat boots. Surely after a month taking goons down, one would have his size. Take it, that guy can't complain about it. 

You can show the financial struggle in other ways. Viewers will whine about it because it stands out despite being a small detail. Like, he covers everything else so why not the feet?

Hopefully they see the fair criticism (the other kind is par the course for any fan project....hell even professional and official releases) and tackle them in the second episode.

----------


## G-Potion

JJMK!

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

That was fast.

----------


## Aioros22

Tha artistic fandom never dissapoints. 

I got me a real Arsène Lupin vibe with that last disguise and Casino troll. If you gotta steal and tell badders to shive off you should have the responsability of doing it in style so they won`t easily forget it.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I couldn't even make it past the four minute mark. The script is like a bad 90's action movie.

----------


## DragonPiece

> Anyone following Titans? This is the best arc of the entire book so far. It may not be saying much but Roy at least has been on fire instead of the usual driving nostalgia kick that's been boring for months and months. 
> 
> It also fits nicely in current Outlaw fashion. Grit, standing by what you believe and your evidence whether the babysitters say yes or no and taking down the big bad hard without having to kill them even when it looks like they do. 
> 
> Or as a recent debate has told us, polite or agressive use of lethal force ;p


what, this has been some of the worst issues yet of this series.

----------


## Aioros22

> what, this has been some of the worst issues yet of this series.


Not to me. Unlike the rest of the borefest driven nostalgia and innefective team members I`m enjoying a depiction of a lone wolf who is not only in the right, he`s kicking ass like a hero/anti-hero should. It's pretty standard superhero fare but compared to the trivial 90% of the run? 

It`s _fun_.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> what, this has been some of the worst issues yet of this series.


And that's saying something considering that what little of the series I've read was pretty awful. Honestly, I really dislike how Abnett handles Roy and have since the first issue of Titans Hunt.

----------


## Aioros22

BATMAN: PRELUDE TO THE WEDDING - RED HOOD VS. ANARKY #1 

Check out the wedding special episode "_Am I drunk and is that a mace in my hand_?" coming near your theatre.

----------


## AJpyro

> https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited
> 
> That was fast.


I wonder if that moustache is in honor for Alfred. It seems like a dandy british one.

----------


## pansy

> BATMAN: PRELUDE TO THE WEDDING - RED HOOD VS. ANARKY #1 
> 
> Check out the wedding special episode "_Am I drunk and is that a mace in my hand_?" coming near your theatre.


Break the bottle before, Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> I couldn't even make it past the four minute mark. The script is like a bad 90's action movie.


And that's why you missed dichotomy that Aioros talked about.

----------


## G-Potion

> BATMAN: PRELUDE TO THE WEDDING - RED HOOD VS. ANARKY #1 
> 
> Check out the wedding special episode "_Am I drunk and is that a mace in my hand_?" coming near your theatre.


This should have been the solicit they sold you with.  :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> This should have been the solicit they sold you with.


This may be some fun stand alone issue, to be honest. I wonder if Seeley is going to play with the background from the previous Tec story. And I hope Fernández is as inspired as he was this last issue of Tec, btw; it looked quite pretty.

----------


## G-Potion

Hopefully it turns out to be a fun issue. I like that comparing to the other covers, we have Robin and Nightwing looking to be locked in a death match while Jason treats his like a bar fight.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SpentShrimp

> And that's why you missed dichotomy that Aioros talked about.


They should maybe write a better script if they want people to get into it.

----------


## G-Potion

> They should maybe write a better script if they want people to get into it.


Judging from the comments it gets, people like it just fine. Not saying that you _should_, just that to better appreciate it, a complete viewing is needed because the highlight of the movie is the juxtaposition of Jason's qualities, which doesn't happen in 4 minutes.

----------


## G-Potion

http://pevvk.tumblr.com/post/172839015053

----------


## G-Potion

Shake 'em Todd

----------


## G-Potion

guillem_march#Variant #cover for #REDHOOD and The #OUTLAWS a.k.a. #Penguins a Go-Go.

----------


## Zaresh

> guillem_march#Variant #cover for #REDHOOD and The #OUTLAWS a.k.a. #Penguins a Go-Go.


So we can confirm that there's definitely something going on with Willis past or current status, eh?
Pretty damn beautiful cover, btw.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder what Penguin has to do with the Willis secret. Saw him in some WIP panels and now this cover.

----------


## JasonTodd428

That's one nice cover. 




> I wonder what Penguin has to do with the Willis secret. Saw him in some WIP panels and now this cover.


I wonder what he has to do with it too.

----------


## Zaresh

> That's one nice cover. 
> 
> I wonder what he has to do with it too.


Could be that both things (Jason's digging some info about Willis and Penguin being an antagonist) are unrelated but they share the cover anyways?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Could be that both things (Jason's digging some info about Willis and Penguin being an antagonist) are unrelated but they share the cover anyways?


That could be. It's not as if covers are necessarily accurate to what happens in the book. Still the juxtaposition of Willis Todd's grave being surrounded by penguins is interesting. It also interesting to note that the set up here is very reminiscent of one of Jason's own grave in the UTRH movie.

----------


## kiwiliko

> BATMAN: PRELUDE TO THE WEDDING - RED HOOD VS. ANARKY #1 
> 
> Check out the wedding special episode "_Am I drunk and is that a mace in my hand_?" coming near your theatre.


Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover


You weren't the only one, kiwi. I saw it too.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover


Since some of you guys recently introduced me to FMA, yes I saw it too.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Since some of you guys recently introduced me to FMA, yes I saw it too.


I confess I also did for a moment.
And I must see things, but I swear it reminds me of an old photo or an old poster too.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover


Now that you mention it the cover does look like Jason is fighting Edward Elric. Now I want more than ever fro Fullmetal Alchemist to crossover into the DC Universe.

----------


## Assam

> Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover


I saw it too. (God this issue is gonna suck)

----------


## Aioros22

I just honestly saw a boring can`t believe it will be the actual I hope not cover. 

It`s not artistically exciting.

----------


## oasis1313

> So we can confirm that there's definitely something going on with Willis past or current status, eh?
> Pretty damn beautiful cover, btw.


Yeah, gorgeous cover.  Looks like Jason is digging his way into the grave instead of out  :Smile:  :Smile: .

----------


## Alycat

> Please someone tell me I'm not the only one who saw Red Hood vs. Edward Elric in this cover


Well now I can't unsee.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/maple_DC

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Medri's costume is seriously underrated.

----------


## G-Potion

His design would fit so well for Injustice Jason.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Shake 'em Todd


Gosh dangit. Why is he so hot

----------


## G-Potion

> Gosh dangit. Why is he so hot


Two years and Soy has completely caught up on Jason's best features according to fandom.  :Cool:

----------


## kiwiliko

Given Soy's artwork I'm inclined to say fandom's got pretty good taste in that case.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Medri's costume is seriously underrated.


I like the hood if he's trying to be incognito, but in an actual combat scenario it's pretty dumb.

----------


## EMarie

He rarely had the hood up. And Damian already made the combat thing with a hood up invalid since he pointed out he could fight without seeing. Jason can do that too.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Personally I disliked Medri's design or rather I hated the vest. It was too bulky in my opinion and I much prefer a more streamlined look like we have now or even his UTRH costume. The hoo on the costume was one of the few things that didn't bother me.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> He rarely had the hood up. And Damian already made the combat thing with a hood up invalid since he pointed out he could fight without seeing. Jason can do that too.


Which is kind of corny in my opinion. It sounds like a really bad Matrix line.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Personally I disliked Medri's design or rather I hated the vest. It was too bulky in my opinion and I much prefer a more streamlined look like we have now or even his UTRH costume. The hoo on the costume was one of the few things that didn't bother me.


I don't think anything can top the OG costume he had. I liked his "Hush" costume because it incorporated a turtleneck. Very 60's James Bond.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I don't think anything can top the OG costume he had. I liked his "Hush" costume because it incorporated a turtleneck. Very 60's James Bond.


I liked the "Hush" costume too but for me the UTHR costume was the best.

----------


## Zaresh

I usually like Jason's costumes, but my favourite probably is the look he had in Countdown. Actually, that with a turtleneck white shirt instead of a neck-less t-shirt would be even perfect. I just dig the 50's look too much, as simple as it was (most if not all my winter shirts are turtlenecked, even some of my tops are turtlenecked). Hush's costume was a bit too much of everything, tho. Also, big fan of leather jackets too. I mean, they're smelly and warm and soft and...

I love the costume for the AK too; those kitty-like bat-horns are to die for.

----------


## Aioros22

I like it but I simply enjoy the jacket/hood combos and they tend to be more iconic. 

Someone with that helmet does not necessarily need a hood but on the other hand it can always work for cover or camouflage or to up the intimidating effect.

----------


## Restingvoice

I don't like Medri's design because everything are too loose and big they cover up his sexy body. 
No, I'm not joking. That _is_ the main reason. 
I like the hood just fine, but the rest needs to be tighter and slicker. 
Of course, my favorite is the current one. 
I don't like the Hush design because of the trench coat. The leather jacker, brown or black, is better. 
The bullet proof tights is cool though. 
They can add a hood if they like, but it's gonna come off everytime he fights I don't see the point except to keep the red hood monicker literal.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Personally I disliked Medri's design or rather I hated the vest. It was too bulky in my opinion and I much prefer a more streamlined look like we have now or even his UTRH costume. The hoo on the costume was one of the few things that didn't bother me.


Honestly, what you're having issues with is not the costume itself but Medri's art style. The vest was anything but bulky and it was common for artists not worried on drawing realistic looking clothes to turn the vest into another layer of form fitting spandex.





I love the design because the color scheme is pleasant to the eye and highlights the reds, is also a functional design more in line for someone who regularly engages into a lot of physical activity creating a striking contrast with the rest of the batfamily.

The current design is fine but at this point it doesn't do anything else but looking pretty for me.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Actually looking at those pics now I have to say the entire design really doesn't appeal to me and that honestly isn't because of Medri's art style even though I really didn't care for it most of the time either. It's an issue with the style of the costume itself not the art because I didn't like it much better when other artist drew it. I just didn't like the overall look of his costume at the time and still think most of his other costumes look better.

----------


## Moonwix

> Medri's costume is seriously underrated.


I really  disliked that costume design, so glad they when back to the current one in rebirth.

----------


## G-Potion

So this happened.  :Big Grin: 

http://coolgirl.tumblr.com/




> you’re not a true goth unless u have digged up ur own (ALREADY USED) grave while a dozen of (goth) penguins stare at u

----------


## G-Potion

I just love how the jacket looks in here.

http://anytimeflygirl.tumblr.com/

----------


## Restingvoice

Can you please repost any Tumblr post here? Tumblr's blocked in my country.

----------


## Aioros22

> Honestly, what you're having issues with is not the costume itself but Medri's art style. The vest was anything but bulky and it was common for artists not worried on drawing realistic looking clothes to turn the vest into another layer of form fitting spandex.
> 
> I love the design because the color scheme is pleasant to the eye and highlights the reds, is also a functional design more in line for someone who regularly engages into a lot of physical activity creating a striking contrast with the rest of the batfamily.
> 
> The current design is fine but at this point it doesn't do anything else but looking pretty for me.


You bring a valid point in that Medris style made the vest too loose but on the trade the one thing I sort of not like is really the color scheme and for no particular major issue. It`s not that it wouldn`t fit someone of his training, is that the aesthetic isn`t as pleasing as say, Winnick`s look which did both things, for instance. 

I do like a Helmet and hood combo with a jacket/vest, tho. Have no issue with it.

----------


## Aioros22

Latest Marcus To commision with Jason and Damian. 

"Ive been getting a lot of Jason commissions lately, this one is of J.T. and D.W. drinking HoCho with marshmallows. 
 I imagined Dean and Sam kinda at the counter in a diner. And can never forget desert  :Wink:  #CCEE2016"



Marcus drawing Jason with a Dean reference? He`s totally in the fandom game. Welcome sir, here`s your hood.

----------


## EMarie

> So this happened. 
> 
> http://coolgirl.tumblr.com/


The original version had his own name on it? I don't know, I never thought of penguins as being goth.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s a trope joke. The actual name on the actual cover is Wills Todd, IIRC.

----------


## G-Potion

> Can you please repost any Tumblr post here? Tumblr's blocked in my country.


Yeah I can do that if I'm on my PC. Doing it on my phone is just too much work. Is there a VPN service that you can use to access blocked sites?  

Anyway, the pics that I posted above.

http://coolgirl.tumblr.com/


http://anytimeflygirl.tumblr.com/

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah I can do that if I'm on my PC. Doing it on my phone is just too much work. Is there a VPN service that you can use to access blocked sites?


I don't know what VPN is XD 
Virtual Private Network? I haven't tried one.

Thank you. I don't mind waiting. It's not that important. Just do it if or when it's not a bother.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't know what VPN is XD 
> Virtual Private Network? I haven't tried one.
> 
> Thank you. I don't mind waiting. It's not that important. Just do it if or when it's not a bother.


Yeah. They are easy to set up and not too expensive. Depending on where you live though, you might want to experiment around to see which one works best for you. Most of them offer free trials so testing should be easy. I use Trust.Zone at the moment.

Alternately, you can also run tumblr links through a free proxy like this one.

----------


## Caivu

More Jason from the wedding special, by Javier Fernandez:

Screenshot_20180415-114519.jpg

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You bring a valid point in that Medris style made the vest too loose but on the trade the one thing I sort of not like is really the color scheme and for no particular major issue. It`s not that it wouldn`t fit someone of his training, is that the aesthetic isn`t as pleasing as say, Winnick`s look which did both things, for instance. 
> 
> I do like a Helmet and hood combo with a jacket/vest, tho. Have no issue with it.


Well, the color scheme works for me because it brings to me the idea of a paramilitar task force, that is exactly what Jason and Roy were during RH/A so the color scheme just melded all the elements present on the premise into a cohesive whole. Something that only the Arkham Knight and Morrison's RH design have achieved and even then, those are more "high fantasy" whereas Medri's take is more grounded in reality.

----------


## G-Potion

> More Jason from the wedding special, by Javier Fernandez:
> 
> Screenshot_20180415-114519.jpg


Thanks for the share! Huh, he lets the jacket sleeves down.

----------


## TheCape

> More Jason from the wedding special, by Javier Fernandez:
> 
> Screenshot_20180415-114519.jpg


Looks good, didn't expect less from Fernandez.

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## Aioros22

> More Jason from the wedding special, by Javier Fernandez:
> 
> Screenshot_20180415-114519.jpg


Funny cover aside, at least we can be sure that the interiors will look amazing  :Cool:

----------


## Restingvoice

> Yeah. They are easy to set up and not too expensive. Depending on where you live though, you might want to experiment around to see which one works best for you. Most of them offer free trials so testing should be easy. I use Trust.Zone at the moment.
> 
> Alternately, you can also run tumblr links through a free proxy like this one.


Oh you have to pay... that's a problem :P. 
Nah I don't need tumblr that much. It's mainly to look at art, but there are other sites for that. The only thing I miss is if the artist doesn't publish anywhere else.
That free one doesn't work.  I'm gonna keep searching for others when I feel like it.
Thankies.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Wha this is so cool!  :Cool:

----------


## Bookem Danno

21_medium.jpg



> Looking to make his mark on Gotham City's crowded underworld, Red Hood infiltrates the Iceberg Lounge in an attempt to further annoy the Penguin. But it might be the Penguin who gets the drop on Red Hood this time. Plus, the truth about Bizarro's condition finally comes out-and the consequences could be catastrophic for Artemis!


Great cover. This imagined scene should have been more literally incorporated into the story!
This continues to be a fun run. Jase bests Pengy. Arti makes headway helping Biz. Only the 2 simple stories but the outcomes were worth it. And somebody had sex with Ma Gunn?!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I decided to scan the B&W alternate cover for RHA #13 and color it.



It won't be nowhere close to the quality of the final cover but I'm really liking how is looking.

For reference, this is the cover that was published.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks great, Dark!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

I love m-alejandrita!

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

inkydandy 




> Batman Ninja comes out to the public this month so I can finally start making a print series! I really wanted to do something based on hanafuda cards; my family has some sets, yet I never learned to playbut Ive always loved the designs of each suit! To start, heres Dick and Jason  Dicks is based on the March suit which is designed with sakura and flower viewing curtain. Jays is centered on the August suit and, because Im a sucker for patterns and symbolism, the design on his robe is based on the ayakashi Noh mask: these characters are vengeful spirits, usually warriors. 
> 
> Will probably adapt these to shirt designs once all of them are done, too.

----------


## G-Potion

Winnick's version of Jason would do this tbh. But I love his little V sign in the first photo the most.

ryfoxx

----------


## DIVINITY

*The BrotherHood...*

----------


## CPSparkles

https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah

----------


## G-Potion

Haha the chibi Red Hood is so darn cute.

----------


## G-Potion

> *The BrotherHood...*


It's funny with this art style, Red Hood actually looks the least mean because of the helmet.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## CPSparkles

Trinity and Trinity

----------


## CPSparkles

> Haha the chibi Red Hood is so darn cute.


I know right  :Smile:

----------


## Celgress

> 


Very funny and indicative of the characters lol.

----------


## DIVINITY

>

----------


## Caivu

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yMjQvNzA3L29yaWdpbmFsL01QZ290aGFtQUQuMDUuZmlu.jpg

*MOTHER PANIC: GOTHAM A.D. #5*

written by JODY HOUSER
art by IBRAHIM MOUSTAFA
cover by TOMMY LEE EDWARDS

The Cult of the Bat has taken things too far. Mother Panic is enlisted by the Gotham City Sirens to help end the mad reign of Jason Todd, last of the Robins. But as the heroes past and present clash, are they all just playing into the hands of the evil Collective?

ON SALE 07.25.18

$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | MATURE READERS

----------


## Aioros22

I`m going to need context for that one since I shamely don`t follow the book. I`m aware it is part of the YA imprint but: 

. How is he the "last Robin"?

. Is this it`s own alternative universe?

. Is the setting a futuristic one as it appears?

. Is this his first appearance in the book?

----------


## Aioros22

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #24
 written by SCOTT LOBDELL
 art by DEXTER SOY and ALISSON BORGES
 cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
 variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
 Bizarro is gettingworse. Worser? Worsest. The backward Superman's diminishing cognitive state is causing problems for the rest of the Outlaws. Complicating things is the Red Hood's vendetta against the Penguin-can the Outlaws stop Jason Todd from crossing a line he can't return from?
 ON SALE 07.11.18
 $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
 FC | RATED T+

----------


## G-Potion

> Attachment 64720
> 
> *MOTHER PANIC: GOTHAM A.D. #5*
> 
> written by JODY HOUSER
> art by IBRAHIM MOUSTAFA
> cover by TOMMY LEE EDWARDS
> 
> The Cult of the Bat has taken things too far. Mother Panic is enlisted by the Gotham City Sirens to help end the mad reign of Jason Todd, last of the Robins. But as the heroes past and present clash, are they all just playing into the hands of the evil Collective?
> ...


I'm glad that DC is ultilizing Jason for this title simply because its for mature readers. Hopefully this gets him consideration for the Black imprint as well. Anything else, don't know what to expect as I don't follow this title.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #24
>  written by SCOTT LOBDELL
>  art by DEXTER SOY and ALISSON BORGES
>  cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
>  variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
>  Bizarro is getting…worse. Worser? Worsest. The backward Superman's diminishing cognitive state is causing problems for the rest of the Outlaws. Complicating things is the Red Hood's vendetta against the Penguin-can the Outlaws stop Jason Todd from crossing a line he can't return from?
>  ON SALE 07.11.18
>  $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
>  FC | RATED T+


Something bad enough that Jason wants the Penguin dead? I wonder if it concerns Willis. I'm all for darker Red Hood but let's see if this potential 'crossing-the-line' is more personal than noble.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


You aren't supposed to answer a funny picture with one that gets me _teary_.  :Frown:

----------


## Aioros22

He`s wearing the helmet. 

#usesafety

----------


## DIVINITY

> You aren't supposed to answer a funny picture with one that gets me _teary_.


My apologies... :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> He`s wearing the helmet. 
> 
> #usesafety


I'm reminded by how that turned out in Red Hood IT.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

> I`m going to need context for that one since I shamely don`t follow the book. I`m aware it is part of the YA imprint but: 
> 
> . How is he the "last Robin"?
> 
> . Is this it`s own alternative universe?
> 
> . Is the setting a futuristic one as it appears?
> 
> . Is this his first appearance in the book?



- I'm guessing this means the other Robins are dead.

- Originally, it wasn't, but after Milk Wars, Violet got dropped in a different universe.

- Yes.

- Yes (unless he appears in #2-#4).

----------


## magpieM

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #24
>  written by SCOTT LOBDELL
>  art by DEXTER SOY and ALISSON BORGES
>  cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
>  variant cover by GUILLEM MARCH
>  Bizarro is getting…worse. Worser? Worsest. The backward Superman's diminishing cognitive state is causing problems for the rest of the Outlaws. Complicating things is the Red Hood's vendetta against the Penguin-can the Outlaws stop Jason Todd from crossing a line he can't return from?
>  ON SALE 07.11.18
>  $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
>  FC | RATED T+


So another issue that Bizarro getting worse... 

May (#22), June (#23), July (#24), 
we'll have to wait _at least_ 3 more months before we can get real change

----------


## G-Potion

Still it makes sense that the change would happen gradually rather than instantaneous. And we still don't know exactly when Bizarro will cut off his dose of kyrptonite completely. At least Jason's story is of equal focus starting from the May issue so that's not a problem for me.

----------


## magpieM

> Still it makes sense that the change would happen gradually rather than instantaneous. And we still don't know exactly when Bizarro will cut off his dose of kyrptonite completely. At least Jason's story is of equal focus starting from the May issue so that's not a problem for me.


RHATO #12, July 2017, Bizarro vs Grundy --> That was the beginning of Bizarro story line.

I totally agree that 3 issues are not enough to tell a good Bizarro story, but 12 months (maybe more) is too long... We are about to have an *anniversary* for it!

----------


## G-Potion

> RHATO #12, July 2017, Bizarro vs Grundy --> That was the beginning of Bizarro story line.
> 
> I totally agree that 3 issues are not enough to tell a good Bizarro story, but 12 months (maybe more) is too long... We are about to have an *anniversary* for it!


I would feel the same if the Bizzaro storyline has been the only thing going on, but I personally feel a new arc has started with the Penguin and Willis's secret, which also will last for quite a bit. Totally didn't expect Jason's beef with Penguin into escalate to something big enough for him to consider crossing the line. It's fine if Bizarro continues to deteriorate but subtly in the background.

----------


## magpieM

> I would feel the same if the Bizzaro storyline has been the only thing going on, but I personally feel a new arc has started with the Penguin and Willis's secret, which also will last for quite a bit. It's fine if Bizarro continues to deteriorate but subtly in the background.


Well I hope that Jason could go back to the center stage soon. It's not just Bizarro's story since #12. Before that we already had several issues about Artemis (her past, Quarc and Akila). So technically, Jason hasn't been the main focus since the night Dart Trinity team formed on issue #6. 

Imagine the center-character was not the focus for 3/4 of his book...

----------


## G-Potion

About that, for me, while the arcs haven't been about Jason, I never really feel like he takes a backseat in any issue. His character has been consistently explored and developed since, and I do think that this exploration builds up to this moment where he's thinking about his role as Red Hood, his promise to Bruce and now maybe going back to his lethal root.

----------


## magpieM

By the way, I have an impression that Roy and Starfire would 'somehow' show up around issue #24 based on previous discussion in this thread about some twitter information. Does anyone remember that?

----------


## G-Potion

Oh snap, I forgot it's #24 already. Yeah Lobdell did say so. Do you think that to pull Jason back from the dark side, it will need more than just the current Outlaws? A source from tumblr also said All-Caste might be back as well.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> RHATO #12, July 2017, Bizarro vs Grundy --> That was the beginning of Bizarro story line.
> 
> I totally agree that 3 issues are not enough to tell a good Bizarro story, but 12 months (maybe more) is too long... We are about to have an *anniversary* for it!


I disagree. Something of this sort really does need the proper buildup for the resolution to have meaning and readers need to see that buildup. It can't just happen off panel like happens in some books. *cough cough 'Tec cough cough* Honestly I don't feel like anyone has taken a backseat to anyone else in this book. Believe me I've seen what that's like and this ain't it.

----------


## G-Potion

What I like about Lobdell is that he plants the seeds for future storylines _very, very early_. I vastly prefer this sort of natural progression over the one-and-done approach where things just crop up suddenly to be resolved and then forgotten.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What I like about Lobdell is that he plants the seeds for future storylines _very, very early_. I vastly prefer this sort of natural progression over the one-and-done approach where things just crop up suddenly to be resolved and then forgotten.


The tricky part of what Lobdell is doing though is if you take too long to realise the plot and when you do it becomes an incoherent mess like Chris Claremont's X-Men run became because you're either a new reader or you have forgotten the plot even exist. So I hope he doesn't fall into that trap.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> What I like about Lobdell is that he plants the seeds for future storylines _very, very early_. I vastly prefer this sort of natural progression over the one-and-done approach where things just crop up suddenly to be resolved and then forgotten.


Me too. Not all writers manage that and I like stories that have a slow build that actually leads to a believable resolution.

----------


## magpieM

Solicitation is always 3 months ahead. After one month of waiting, you got another one saying something like 'Bizarro is getting worse...' + 'the rest of the outlaws...' + 'Can outlaws... this time?' again, and it doesn't seem to be the last one for it.

Well, I would just blame that the solicitation writer is terribly lack of imagination...




> Oh snap, I forgot it's #24 already. Yeah Lobdell did say so. Do you think that to pull Jason back from the dark side, it will need more than just the current Outlaws? A source from tumblr also said All-Caste might be back as well.


I remember Lobdell implied that the previous Outlaws would appear 'in a way' (or something like that). Not sure what he meant. Maybe he kept things vague because he couldn't let the solicitation spoil anything, just like Faye Gunn Jr was totally a surprise.

----------


## G-Potion

> The tricky part of what Lobdell is doing though is if you take too long to realise the plot and when you do it becomes an incoherent mess like Chris Claremont's X-Men run became because you're either a new reader or you have forgotten the plot even exist. So I hope he doesn't fall into that trap.


Well I have no idea what Chris Claremont's X-Men looks like, but so far the aside from the Mysterious Guy and Willis' letter, what Lobdell has spinkled all over the run have the subtlety of either looking like a fun one-and-done thing (stealing Penguin's money, laundering that money through his own casino) or a character moment (Jason's talk with Croc, him reading Become What You Are, etc...). It's not Lobdell introducing plots after plots and taking too long to realize them because they work well as a standalone in that moment, but when something does come out of them, you can appreaciate the long-term thinking, or at least the idea of using what's already there and make it grow.

----------


## G-Potion

> I remember Lobdell implied that the previous Outlaws would appear 'in a way' (or something like that). Not sure what he meant. Maybe he kept things vague because he couldn't let the solicitation spoil anything, just like Faye Gunn Jr was totally a surprise.


I really hope they appear in a substantial way. But with the way the recent solicits sound, the book seems already quite busy with all the present factors. Wonder how Roy and Kory fit in.

----------


## Armor of God

> I`m going to need context for that one since I shamely don`t follow the book. I`m aware it is part of the YA imprint but: 
> 
> . How is he the "last Robin"?
> 
> . Is this it`s own alternative universe?
> 
> . Is the setting a futuristic one as it appears?
> 
> . Is this his first appearance in the book?


The others are presumably dead.

Its like Batman Beyond

So yeah, 10 years in to the future

Yes

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well I have no idea what Chris Claremont's X-Men looks like, but so far the aside from the Mysterious Guy and Willis' letter, what Lobdell has spinkled all over the run have the subtlety of either looking like a fun one-and-done thing (stealing Penguin's money, laundering that money through his own casino) or a character moment (Jason's talk with Croc, him reading Become What You Are, etc...). It's not Lobdell introducing plots after plots and taking too long to realize them because they work well as a standalone in that moment, but when something does come out of them, you can appreaciate the long-term thinking, or at least the idea of using what's already there and make it grow.


Unlike Lobdell's Red Hood and the Outlaws run Claremont's run on the X-Men lasted sixteen years something that would unprecedented then and now. While Claremont defined the X-Men he laid down a lot of plot threads that he took forever to pick up upon resulting in low sales for the X-Men because of it. It was like Claremont expected himself to write the X-Men forever. So yeah I am glad Lobdell isn't taking too long to get on with it though i wodner whether someone could replace Lobdell should he end up suffering from burn out or when his run is over.

----------


## Zaresh

> What I like about Lobdell is that he plants the seeds for future storylines _very, very early_. I vastly prefer this sort of natural progression over the one-and-done approach where things just crop up suddenly to be resolved and then forgotten.


I like that, too. it's one of the most entertaining tools in a narrative as a reader, go looking for thrown future treads and fitting pieces across an story progress. It even makes me enjoy reading some stories that are not really readable in other circunstances: finding clues, putting then together, anticipating the plot. Fun stuff.

----------


## Aioros22

> The others are presumably dead.
> 
> Its like Batman Beyond
> 
> So yeah, 10 years in to the future
> 
> Yes


Thanks for the quick responses. The whole setting looks interesting but I had doubts because I recall Batman and Batwoman showing up in the book before going by previous solicitions, off memory?

----------


## Aioros22

> - I'm guessing this means the other Robins are dead.
> 
> - Originally, it wasn't, but after Milk Wars, Violet got dropped in a different universe.
> 
> - Yes.
> 
> - Yes (unless he appears in #2-#4).


But Kate has showed up in the book before as well, right. How does she differ from the mainstream books, if at all?

Thanks for the responses as well, Caivu.

----------


## EMarie

> By the way, I have an impression that Roy and Starfire would 'somehow' show up around issue #24 based on previous discussion in this thread about some twitter information. Does anyone remember that?


I got the impression it might happen at the very end of the issue. Something that's revealed the last page. Maybe Jason is close to crossing the line and Artemis finds a way to contact them because she doesn't want to involve the bat family yet. Maybe Jason's so upset he doesn't care about the rules Bruce set up but Artemis doesn't want him to get in trouble.

----------


## Armor of God

> Thanks for the quick responses. The whole setting looks interesting but I had doubts because I recall Batman and Batwoman showing up in the book before going by previous solicitions, off memory?


No prob, yes both Batman and Batwoman have shown up previously.

----------


## Aioros22

http://toixx.tumblr.com/

-are you scared in the dark, little Tim?

----------


## Aioros22

http://flocco.tumblr.com/



a Hood by Gaslight and...



_isthisthingrealoraparalleluniverse?_

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/lemon_mango1

Jason&Jason

----------


## Tony Stark

> http://flocco.tumblr.com/
> 
> 
> 
> a Hood by Gaslight and...
> 
> 
> 
> _isthisthingrealoraparalleluniverse?_


The Hood by Gaslight is epic!

----------


## DIVINITY



----------


## The Dying Detective

I found it remarkable in the future created because in the latest Batman issue Booster Gold went back in time prevented the Waynes from dying as a wedding gift for Batman and now Jason became a car tire salesmen and he sells tires that send electric shocks to anyone trying to steal them.

----------


## G-Potion

My only thought seeing this page. Can DC just let Jason kill one Joker in the main universe please.

----------


## Aioros22

Especially Jokers. 

And that was about the best thing King ever done with the character and the one thing I enjoyed about the issue because Booster is sadly written as rookier than G`nort.

----------


## TheCape

Well, we have 3 Jokers right now, so they could let him kill the one that cripple Barbara.

----------


## Caivu

> But Kate has showed up in the book before as well, right. How does she differ from the mainstream books, if at all?


Violet is specifically out to get revenge at first, and sort of accidentally develops into becoming someone with more heroic goals.

----------


## Alycat

So we have two confirmed universes where Jason would've been better off without Batman. Pretty good.

----------


## Zaresh

> So we have two confirmed universes where Jason would've been better off without Batman. Pretty good.


There was also that one in which he became Batman after Bruce died in his stead, in Countdown.

----------


## Alycat

> There was also that one in which he became Batman after Bruce died in his stead, in Countdown.


Yeah, but in that one, he had a relationship with Bruce. This one and the one where he became a Priest had no Batman at all. Yet Jason was able to live a fine life anyway. I find it pretty interesting.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yeah, but in that one, he had a relationship with Bruce. This one and the one where he became a Priest had no Batman at all. Yet Jason was able to live a fine life anyway. I find it pretty interesting.


Didn't he still die in the world where he became a priest? But he came back to life.

----------


## Alycat

Yeah, I think he even had the white streak. But he bounced back like a champ.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Solicitation is always 3 months ahead. After one month of waiting, you got another one saying something like 'Bizarro is getting worse...' + 'the rest of the outlaws...' + 'Can outlaws... this time?' again, and it doesn't seem to be the last one for it.
> 
> Well, I would just blame that the solicitation writer is terribly lack of imagination...


I agree with the Bizarro storyline going for far too long by now. And while is true something like this isn't a story that could've been told in three issues, I feel the pacing has been all over the place. It feels like Lobdell took a bunch of ideas he had on the drawing board and tossed them on a blender, so the whole thing feels very unfocused with plot hooks showing up all the time that aren't properly followed upon, only taking up pages that could've been used to properly develop the Bizarro situation. As it is, everything related to him lacks build up, making feel that some developments come from nowhere or either lack the impact they should have.

Oh and I'm not impressed at all at the idea of Jason showing up on Mother Panic. Jason as a crazy, villainous guy is far from being a novel take  and I'd rather have his first appearance on a more "mature" imprint to be a more nuanced and memorable one.

----------


## magpieM

> I agree with the Bizarro storyline going for far too long by now. And while is true something like this isn't a story that could've been told in three issues, I feel the pacing has been all over the place. It feels like Lobdell took a bunch of ideas he had on the drawing board and tossed them on a blender, so the whole thing feels very unfocused with plot hooks showing up all the time that aren't properly followed upon, only taking up pages that could've been used to properly develop the Bizarro situation. As it is, everything related to him lacks build up, making feel that some developments come from nowhere or either lack the impact they should have.


Honestly I'm not sure what would be the role of Willis' letter and Jason's story line now. We were told by the June solicitation (#23) that Jason will read the letter for sure. That's supposed to be a real turning point for RHATO. So I thought this big event could shake up the story and push things forward greatly. But then the July solicitation (#24) seemed to fall into the old pattern again...... What if the letter won't open a new era for RHATO story? After one year's waiting, maybe it is just another one of those ideas Lobdell tossed into the blender to elongate Bizarros' story? Would new story and new leads be built up on Jason himself based on the letter, not just several issues of dark emotional feelings?

I remember Lobdell mentioned that RHATO would be darker and speeded up in his interview before 2017 Christmas. That's a wonderful interview. And I hope he really meant it and the story could get somewhere around the middle of 2018. Nowadays those solicitations and cover pages are very misleading. Hopefully I worried too much for the solicitations.




> Oh and I'm not impressed at all at the idea of Jason showing up on Mother Panic. Jason as a crazy, villainous guy is far from being a novel take  and I'd rather have his first appearance on a more "mature" imprint to be a more nuanced and memorable one.


I must confess that I know nothing about Mother Panic. I need to do some homework about this character...

----------


## SpentShrimp

I've heard good things about Mother Panic, and I am interested to see Jason's role in the upcoming issue.


Then again...

The crazy role is getting extremely played out. I am willing to bet it's a red herring to lure in more readers who like Jason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

The thing is I'm not at all interested in seeing a writer have another go at crazy, villainous Jason. I got tired of that crap a long time ago because no one did anything of use with the concept.

----------


## G-Potion

Hopefully there is a twist to it, otherwise it's a painfully uncreative use of the character.

----------


## G-Potion

Inspired by the BatCat wedding covers I guess.

偽正经

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/a_sebury

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Inspired by the BatCat wedding covers I guess.
> 
> 偽正经


I like this one.

----------


## Aioros22

They should just have Jason fight Anarky in the helmet and suit.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Related to the whole Mother Panic thing. I got this on DC's newsletter




> Letter from MOTHER PANIC:
> GOTHAM A.D. Writer
> Jody Houser
> "I can't even begin to tell everyone how much fun I'm having working on MOTHER PANIC: GOTHAM A.D. The first year of her story, Violet Paige had her own slice of Gotham to crash through. *Now, she has a whole twisted nightmare version of the city.* Between Ibrahim Moustafa on interiors and Tommy Lee Edwards on covers, it's a blast watching the new designs for familiar faces evolve. But as much as I love getting to play with the Gotham gang I grew up with, it's scrappy newcomer Fennec Fox who has probably won my heart the most. Thanks to everyone who's followed us on this new arc of Mother Panic's story! You may want to strap in for the ride."


Not helping her case, really.

----------


## The Whovian

> Related to the whole Mother Panic thing. I got this on DC's newsletter
> 
> 
> 
> Not helping her case, really.


I just can't get into Mother Panic. And if they treat Jason like garbage, I'll be ticked.

----------


## G-Potion

But how were Batman and Batwoman written in the book?

----------


## RedBird

Billy Tan - Past Commission

----------


## RedBird

> I just can't get into Mother Panic. And if they treat Jason like garbage, I'll be ticked.


Yeah pretty much. I mean, even without the negative knee jerk reaction I already have towards a 'c-c-crazzzy Jason' thanks to a lot of pre52 nonsense (especially BFTC). At this point I'm also just kinda tired of the 'Robin becomes evil Batman' shtick (I'm guessing that's the game plan here with Jason as well, if the "cult of the bat" is anything to go by). Maybe its just me, but I feel like its been really overplayed as of late. First Jason, the original, the classic, then Damian was the "evil future batman" that had to be prevented at all costs, then recently future Tim was a psychopath for literally no reason, and hell even Dick now in the Batman title is an evil batman, in a world where batman as a concept never really began with the Waynes sooo, what the hell? I guess I'm just tired of the obvious shock value its used for, whereas honestly if there was more nuance within each of those character roles, displaying the organic development of how they each ended up on those 'bad' pathways, I might have been interested. In the case of Mother Panic, I am most definitely not expecting the title to give Jason a lot of room for personal developments, that would be a an unfair request of the book and author anyway. However, if this is not some kind of red herring (eg: say it turns out Jason was fighting off a bigger threat that MP doesnt know about yet) and is just gonna be Jason yelling and spouting nonsense about ruling over Gotham and all the evil he has accomplished and blah blah blah, then personally I'm probably gonna drop the new future MP book. I only picked up this second series to give it a _second_ chance anyway, so its already on very thin ice for me.


Speaking of shock value, okay in the case of Jason, I'll give it to King this one time. That whole Todd Tazer Tires thing was a neat gag, a dark one, no doubt considering the jokerised outcome of this future, but definitely a highlight of that issue. After seeing that the Ivy arc turned out pretty alright, I've been back on the batman run since the wedding dress issue and now this Booster arc, though I'm still shaky on his Booster to be honest.

Edit: Ha, I just remembered, add to Jasons file of "evil version of Batman", theres also the injustice 2 comic. Though granted that one might be fleshed out more in the future.

----------


## Zaresh

Honestly? I'm not looking forward to read yet another evil Robin take on Jason, but I suspect that this time is a trick for the readers. The summary reads as if the MC (Violet is it?) is working with the idea of some guys being good, and then discovering that those guys are either being played by some shadow party or straight manipulating her into fighting against Jason and his crew. And also playing Jason into fighting her as well.

So I kind of, sort of, still have some hope.

----------


## Aioros22

> Related to the whole Mother Panic thing. I got this on DC's newsletter
> 
> 
> 
> Not helping her case, really.


I wasn't aware she was trying to make any. By all accounts, if it does end up being him after all, it will  be her very first foray with the character and as such we can just sit and wait to see what will come out of it. 

It would do well to remember that as passionate a fandom or fanbase are regarding said characters, we, at large, do not own them, the publisher does.

----------


## adrikito

> http://flocco.tumblr.com/


cool image.  :Wink:

----------


## Aahz

> Speaking of shock value, okay in the case of Jason, I'll give it to King this one time. That whole Todd Tazer Tires thing was a neat gag, a dark one, no doubt considering the jokerised outcome of this future, but definitely a highlight of that issue. After seeing that the Ivy arc turned out pretty alright, I've been back on the batman run since the wedding dress issue and now this Booster arc, though I'm still shaky on his Booster to be honest.


I'm sill waiting for King to do something with Jason apart from Jokes.

----------


## Alycat

> I'm sill waiting for King to do something with Jason apart from Jokes.


King isn't doing anything in the book that isn't Batman and Catwoman. I say that even though I like him as a writer.

----------


## TheCape

> King isn't doing anything in the book that isn't Batman and Catwoman. I say that even though I like him as a writer.


Is like they were compesating for the lack of it in the last few years. Althougth King is overdoing it.

----------


## Caivu

> But how were Batman and Batwoman written in the book?


Both very well.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm sill waiting for King to do something with Jason apart from Jokes.


I know right? Same here.

Though I think I have given up hope on getting anything  but 'jokes' from King, when it comes to Jasons character. But hey if thats all I have to look forward to when King writes him, they may as well be kinda funny and not just portrayls that openly mock the character or mischarecterize him.

----------


## RedBird

InkyDandy Commission

----------


## TheCape

> I know right? Same here.
> 
> Though I think I have given up hope on getting anything  but 'jokes' from King, when it comes to Jasons character. But hey if thats all I have to look forward to when King writes him, they may as well be kinda funny and not just portrayls that openly mock the character or mischarecterize him.


King only knows how to writte the tumblr version of the Robins, no wonder why i see many people enjoy it then  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aioros22

He doesn't actually write them, he just shows them in a light that is attracting to headcanons. To write them would require to examine the characters beyond the Gag or the headcanon realm. He hasn't really done it with anyone save Batman, his own creation in Gotham Girl (and barely) and his rogues.

----------


## TheCape

> He doesn't actually write them, he just shows them in a light that is attracting to headcanons. To write them would require to examine the characters beyond the Gag or the headcanon realm. He hasn't really done it with anyone save Batman, his own creation in Gotham Girl (and barely) and his rogues.


True, they pretty much are fanservice that pander to certain crows, nothing more nothing less. I can't speak for his charactherization on Selina either because of my lack of knowledge regarding her characther, how accurate is he regarding her?.

----------


## RedBird

Ketchup212

----------


## Aioros22

Yes, I`ve only grabbed Arkham Knight: VR recently.

----------


## Aioros22

http://hellredskyart.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

> Ketchup212


I _love_ this!!

----------


## G-Potion

> True, they pretty much are fanservice that pander to certain crows, nothing more nothing less. I can't speak for his charactherization on Selina either because of my lack of knowledge regarding her characther, how accurate is he regarding her?.


I'm not knowledgeable on the character either but I have to say, if King's version is my entry to her, I certainly won't be a fan.

----------


## G-Potion

> Both very well.


Thanks for the answer! I'll keep an open mind for the Jason issue then.

----------


## Caivu

> Thanks for the answer! I'll keep an open mind for the Jason issue then.


It's also worth keeping in mind that this Jason isn't main-U Jason.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## Aahz

I'm anyway wondering if Mother Panic (and the other Young Animal books) will go much further after the Jason issues, the sales of the number #1 issue were only 14 K, doesn't look like the relaunch of the young animal books was a success.

----------


## G-Potion

> jjmk-jjmk


There's a sad lack of fanarts where Jason destroys Joker. Maybe I should do it next.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm anyway wondering if Mother Panic (and the other Young Animal books) will go much further after the Jason issues, the sales of the number #1 issue were only 14 K, doesn't look like the relaunch of the young animal books was a success.


YA has _always_ had a lower-than-normal threshold.

----------


## CPSparkles

Robins

----------


## CPSparkles

> King only knows how to writte the tumblr version of the Robins, no wonder why i see many people enjoy it then .


King's secret weapon  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Aahz

> YA has _always_ had a lower-than-normal threshold.


The question is just how low. If the books will have the usual drop off after the first issue, they will all be soon below 10K.
And just for comparison the first issue of the previous Mother Panic run sold 40K, with just 14K for the first issue (the other series started even lower) I'm sceptical if the whole imprint will survive much longer.

----------


## Aioros22

> True, they pretty much are fanservice that pander to certain crows, nothing more nothing less. I can't speak for his charactherization on Selina either because of my lack of knowledge regarding her characther, how accurate is he regarding her?.


Fanservice (or what other terms you could apply to what King does) isn`t inherently bad or good. With that in mind, I can say that whereas I haven`t been hot for his gags concerning Jason or the others, I did enjoy somewhat tht Bat burget scene on the whole and as a concept and this recent scene. 

Like you point out, it`s simply nothing more and nothing less than what we see because he hasn`t dwelt any further. It`s a bit shallow even if it can be a good kind of shallow.

----------


## TheCape

> Fanservice (or what other terms you could apply to what King does) isn`t inherently bad or good. With that in mind, I can say that whereas I haven`t been hot for his gags concerning Jason or the others, I did enjoy somewhat tht Bat burget scene on the whole and as a concept and this recent scene. 
> 
> Like you point out, it`s simply nothing more and nothing less than what we see because he hasn`t dwelt any further. It`s a bit shallow even if it can be a good kind of shallow.


I agreed, as a fan of Tim i actually enjoy that he was an IT employ in the issue, but at the end is fluff without substance, nothing bad, but as you said, kind of shallow.

----------


## Aioros22

http://georgethecat.tumblr.com/post/...mmission-i-got

_"Francis was super busy and super awesome. I waited in line to get a commission from him and a bunch of people crowded around to see him draw this one. (And others, too). We chatted about Under the Red Hood, which he had just seen and about how well-done it was, how intense and violent it was and about the Joker.

I believe he used mostly watercolour for this and it took about 20 minutes. He also added in Batman in the shadows  which I totally didnt even ask for and was so happy to see that added in. This piece is actually way bigger than my scanner, so you cant see his signature, Jasons other gun or the ears of Batmans cowl"_ 



https://www.pinterest.pt/pin/766245324074455890/

----------


## G-Potion

He rocks the cop hat.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Poison Ivy vs. the Red Hood

https://www.instagram.com/warpzonegraphics/

----------


## G-Potion

:Big Grin: 

https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212

----------


## TheCape

> https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212


I wasn't expecting that.

----------


## Zaresh

> Poison Ivy vs. the Red Hood
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/warpzonegraphics/


Wow. Pretty awesome, honestly.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/jd67474165

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/ryanwinn

Inking Red Hood, well his boot anyways. (But you get the idea of what's happening in that scene in RHATO#23)

----------


## okiedokiewo

Jason pops up in the preview for the Signal, bantering with Damian.

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusi...from-dc-comics

----------


## The Whovian

I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the...Jason and Damian are going to be in it? I'm going to have to buy the Signal.

----------


## CPSparkles

A heads up would have been nice bros! Jason meets the Dragon

----------


## CPSparkles

> Jason pops up in the preview for the Signal, bantering with Damian.
> 
> http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/exclusi...from-dc-comics





> I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the...Jason and Damian are going to be in it? I'm going to have to buy the Signal.


They do have great banter. I wish these two had more interaction but sadly DC has a problem recognising and playing to their strengths.  :Frown:

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the Signal, I'm not going to buy the...Jason and Damian are going to be in it? I'm going to have to buy the Signal.


Ha! That could be their only scene, I don't know.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## dietrich

> Poison Ivy vs. the Red Hood
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/warpzonegraphics/


This looks pretty amazing.

----------


## dietrich

So ordered my Jason Ikemen Statue today and it's due for delivery in July  :Cool:  Can't wait. Now just have to find prime location for display in my modest apartmen  :Confused: .

----------


## RedBird

> So ordered my Jason Ikemen Statue today and it's due for delivery in July  Can't wait. Now just have to find prime location for display in my modest apartmen .


Cool, mind sharing where you ordered yours from? I'm thinking of ordering mine in the next few days and currently trying to find somewhere that ships to my country at a price that won't make my heart stop. XD


Also guys I just watched Batman Ninja, and as others have stated its pretty much crazy silly dumb fun, and I mean that in a good way. I actually loved the Joker here, felt kinda wacky like BTAS with just that extra hint of darkness. The animation is fantastic for this 3D style, and its even experimental in some sections, like the Red Hood scene, which was honestly one of the heavier moments in the film, and I think the animators wanted to represent those heavy emotions through the 2d animation style there. I can't honestly explain the scene without giving away a major plot point. I'll just say that Jason _appears_ vicious, but his actions are warranted. Oh and although you only see it partially and with the 2D style, I can confirm that under the hood he.... *spoilers:*
...is not completely bald XD If that puts anyones mind at ease. Seems to have mid length hair with bangs down to his nose. Mystery solved.  :Smile:  
*end of spoilers*


Other than that scene though, the film doesn't seem to take itself too seriously, even in its quiet or contemplative moments it feels very much 'anime esque', as in monologues about 'power of unity' and all that, and 'never giving up' etc.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Cool, mind sharing where you ordered yours from? I'm thinking of ordering mine in the next few days and currently trying to find somewhere that ships to my country at a price that won't make my heart stop. XD
> 
> 
> Also guys I just watched Batman Ninja, and as others have stated its pretty much crazy silly dumb fun, and I mean that in a good way. I actually loved the Joker here, felt kinda wacky like BTAS with just that extra hint of darkness. The animation is fantastic for this 3D style, and its even experimental in some sections, like the Red Hood scene, which was honestly one of the heavier moments in the film, and I think the animators wanted to represent those heavy emotions through the 2d animation style there. I can't honestly explain the scene without giving away a major plot point. I'll just say that Jason _appears_ vicious, but his actions are warranted. Oh and although you only see it partially and with the 2D style, I can confirm that under the hood he.... *spoilers:*
> ...is not completely bald XD If that puts anyones mind at ease. Seems to have mid length hair with bangs down to his nose. Mystery solved.  
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> 
> Other than that scene though, the film doesn't seem to take itself too seriously, even in its quiet or contemplative moments it feels very much 'anime esque', as in monologues about 'power of unity' and all that, and 'never giving up' etc.


I waiting for the reception of that scean its totally Jason, but its the side of Jason that tends to be hidden  from the GP since it aint a good look

----------


## RedBird

> I waiting for the reception of that scean its totally Jason, but its the side of Jason that tends to be hidden  from the GP since it aint a good look


I thought it was totally Jason too, and honestly I _think_ it should go over _fine_ with people, especially since (*BIG SPOILER*) *spoilers:*
the narrative puts him totally in the right at the end. His suspicions were confirmed to be true. If Bruce had been right *then* his actions would have felt much more violent and harsher than necessary imo.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rac7d*

> I thought it was totally Jason too, and honestly I _think_ it should go over _fine_ with people, especially since (*BIG SPOILER*) *spoilers:*
> the narrative puts him totally in the right at the end. His suspicions were confirmed to be true. If Bruce had been right *then* his actions would have felt much more violent and harsher than necessary.
> *end of spoilers*



That doest matter tho *spoilers:*
 beating on on Harley like that, cringey, joker or not. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## dietrich

> Cool, mind sharing where you ordered yours from? I'm thinking of ordering mine in the next few days and currently trying to find somewhere that ships to my country at a price that won't make my heart stop. XD


I ordered in store at Forbidden Planet and I have to go collect it in store once it arrives. I live in the UK but I believe forbidden Planet does do international deliveries if you go online. Sadly I don't know the prices. 


Can't wait to see Batman Ninja

----------


## Zaresh

> 


... I wish I had better eyesight. Sometimes I hate being this blind to details, unable to pull things a little bit like those.

Envy is eating my insides.
Sigh.

----------


## RedBird

> I ordered in store at Forbidden Planet and I have to go collect it in store once it arrives. I live in the UK but I believe forbidden Planet does do international deliveries if you go online. Sadly I don't know the prices. 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to see Batman Ninja


Ah cheers, I'll check it out and compare prices 😊 thanks

----------


## RedBird

> ... I wish I had better eyesight. Sometimes I hate being this blind to details, unable to pull things a little bit like those.
> 
> Envy is eating my insides.
> Sigh.


I know right? Watching each individual brushstroke and the various methods of shading here are really helping to expand my own perspective.

----------


## EMarie

To me it looks like what the covers of #23 imply with the shove and potential fight. This is going to be emotional.

----------


## Zaresh

> I know right? Watching each individual brushstroke and the various methods of shading here are really helping to expand my own perspective.


No kidding. Watching these videos sure is educational. I know near to nothing about a lot of things, one being inking techniques. So it does give some perspective to me as well (videos helped me with gouache, pencils and markers: honestly, watching people working their artistic skills is so fun). I just wish I could straight do detailed work as this and put it into tangible practice. I guess I could if I were to work on a bigger board size, but it's not like I have the space to do so either.

In any case, still lots of fun just watching and learning, bless the Internet.

----------


## G-Potion

@RedBird: Breathe a collective sigh of relief. And I sleep easily tonight.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

For the occasion.

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___

----------


## Aioros22

Not touching the spoilers with a long stick but I am happy to see that not only the audience is saying positive things regarding his participation in the movie but positive things for the whole movie itself. As for his coreography being a highlight, that`s a bonus I was eagarly hoping to happen after the previews and as such, nothing more needs to be said. 

More for experimental takes!

----------


## RedBird

> Not touching the spoilers with a long stick but I am happy to see that not only the audience is saying positive things regarding his participation in the movie but positive things for the whole movie itself. *As for his coreography being a highlight,* that`s a bonus I was eagarly hoping to happen after the previews and as such, nothing more needs to be said. 
> 
> More for experimental takes!


I dont want to spoil anything but at the same time I dont want to give the wrong expectation or impression with my vague statements. Its not that the scene has unique _choreograhy_, more so that the animation style is vastly different and the scene contains a dramatic reaction/response from Hood that whilst (as you could gather from my response) I was pretty fine with, could potencially (as Rac7d mentioned) leave people mixed with the harsh 'UTRH level' of viciousness or cruelty displayed.

----------


## Alycat

Welp, now I have to watch the movie. Those spoilers are too interesting not to.

----------


## G-Potion

Haven't watched yet but I saw that close-up shot of Jason.

*spoilers:*
So the fans weren't totally far off with all the basket under basket jokes.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

> Haven't watched yet but I saw that close-up shot of Jason.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So the fans weren't totally far off with all the basket under basket jokes.
> *end of spoilers*


Oh yeah, forgot to mention that. I guess not XD

----------


## Aahz

> Haven't watched yet but I saw that close-up shot of Jason.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> So the fans weren't totally far off with all the basket under basket jokes.
> *end of spoilers*


Do you have link?

----------


## RedBird

> Do you have link?


Of the image under the Hood?

Here it is.

----------


## Aahz

> Of the image under the Hood?
> 
> Here it is.


Tanks  :Cool:

----------


## CPSparkles

By fade unlimited

----------


## RedBird

> By fade unlimited


Dawww so cute, I love the little symbols, the AK helmet and Mr. Spanky in the left hand corner XD

----------


## DragonPiece

Jason and Damian moment in Batman & the signal this week

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Jason and Damian moment in Batman & the signal this week


He's also at the family breakfast at the end

----------


## G-Potion

So he skips Sunday lunches according to RHATO, but attends breakfasts.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> By fade unlimited


Too cute.
Tooooo cuuuuute.

----------


## TheCape

> By fade unlimited


This is hanging in the edge beetween cute and diabetic for me  :Stick Out Tongue: , i can't really decide.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Dawww so cute, I love the little symbols, the AK helmet and Mr. Spanky in the left hand corner XD


The Mr Spanky is my favourite part  :Smile:

----------


## CPSparkles

> This is hanging in the edge beetween cute and diabetic for me , i can't really decide.


If this was a toy you know you'd buy it. How can anyone resist   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> By fade unlimited


That's so cute. I especially love Mr. Spanky.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason and Damian moment in Batman & the signal this week


I like the left panel, but the not the right.

----------


## EMarie

> I like the left panel, but the not the right.


Ditto. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. Jason is complaining and it looks bad when he's bringing up his death for no reason. It comes off like the writer doesn't know much about Jason. The fact Damian mocks it makes it worse.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Ditto. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. Jason is complaining and it looks bad when he's bringing up his death for no reason. It comes off like the writer doesn't know much about Jason. The fact Damian mocks it makes it worse.


Honestly I don't have a problem with any of the panels there. Damian mocks everything so that's pretty much in character for him and I've seen Jason make references to his death plenty of times in the past. There's really nothing out of the ordinary about either one of those things to me. *shrug*

----------


## G-Potion

So done with Soy's caption .

_Be kind to each other_

----------


## Aahz

> Honestly I don't have a problem with any of the panels there. Damian mocks everything so that's pretty much in character for him and I've seen Jason make references to his death plenty of times in the past. There's really nothing out of the ordinary about either one of those things to me. *shrug*


It just really annoys me when they do stuff like this in books where he has just a cameo for 2 panels, and here it doesn't even feel like a natural continuation of the dialog in the first panel.

----------


## G-Potion

By itself it's not annoying (the joke still feels forced though), but to see him act like this so many times in family setting is incredibly boring however.

----------


## Tony Stark

> So done with Soy's caption .
> 
> _Be kind to each other_


That's epic.

----------


## Aahz

> By itself it's not annoying (the joke still feels forced though), but to see him act like this so many times in family setting is incredibly boring however.


If this was the only time he was written like this, it wouldn't be a problem for me.
But stuff like this happens to often, and I really dislike it when they do it in cameos like this. Jason's appearance was completely irrelevant to the story, so to include him only to make him look bad sucks. And there was really no need to include the second panel.

----------


## Zaresh

It does have a function in the narrative: they're showing all the family working togethe (minus Tim because... reasons. I feel so sorry for that character, honestly). It goes with the panel in the end with them having a breakfast. It shows them as a group with shared bounds.

I think.

I mean, it's not subtle, it feels forced, but it's there for a reason, I guess.

----------


## Aahz

> It does have a function in the narrative: they're showing all the family working togethe (minus Tim because... reasons. I feel so sorry for that character, honestly). It goes with the panel in the end with them having a breakfast. It shows them as a group with shared bounds.
> 
> I think.
> 
> I mean, it's not subtle, it feels forced, but it's there for a reason, I guess.


I think that also only serves to show that Duke is now part of the family. 

And Jason at the breakfast scene (if I identified him correctly) seems also odd.

----------


## G-Potion

Of course it's odd because he just refused Alfred's lunch invitation at the manor in RHATO.

----------


## Aioros22

> It just really annoys me when they do stuff like this in books where he has just a cameo for 2 panels, and here it doesn't even feel like a natural continuation of the dialog in the first panel.


I can't be upset at that when Loebell had written plenty quips and one lines about his own death. 

Sure, this one was on the nose but let's start home first, shall we?

----------


## Aioros22

> Of course it's odd because he just refused Alfred's lunch invitation at the manor in RHATO.


Meh, it doesnt automatically discharge either routine for him and surely enough it's not a major thing for writers to be in synch at. 

It would be nice but priorities.

----------


## G-Potion

> Meh, it doesnt automatically discharge either routine for him and surely enough it's not a major thing for writers to be in synch at. 
> 
> It would be nice but priorities.


Of course it's not a major thing to be in sync about but it does further shows that obviously there's a big difference in how close Jason thinks he is to the family in the main book, and how he is portrayed in other books. Anyway, as I said above, I don't find this particular instance to be annoying. Just nothing to write home about.

----------


## Aioros22

> Of course it's not a major thing to be in sync about but it does further shows that obviously there's a big difference in how close Jason thinks he is to the family in the main book, and how he is portrayed in other books. Anyway, as I said above, I don't find this particular instance to be annoying. Just nothing to write home about.


Yeah, I agree. At most if there is dialogue I'd adress Jason being more in family gatherings after similar events of helping save a city under siege. That's a nice pass and exception to the rule. The other times is when he allows it or sees fit, like Sunday Brunch with Alfred or chilly with Bruce by the car.

That's the in-story as far as I am concerned. The real story is of course Office wants him there with the others because it sells the franchise.

----------


## Aahz

> Of course it's odd because he just refused Alfred's lunch invitation at the manor in RHATO.


My problem is more in that panel (assuming he is the one with the red shirt) he doesn't really act like he imo would around the family. Based on how he is written in his own book I think he would keep himself apart and not being the centre of attention.

----------


## Zaresh

> *I think that also only serves to show that Duke is now part of the family.* 
> 
> And Jason at the breakfast scene (if I identified him correctly) seems also odd.


Well, of course. It's Duke's book after all.




> Of course it's not a major thing to be in sync about but it does further shows that obviously there's a big difference in how close Jason thinks he is to the family in the main book, and how he is portrayed in other books. Anyway, as I said above, I don't find this particular instance to be annoying. Just nothing to write home about.


Jason being an unreliable narrator? A possibility--and not the first instance it'd happened, in that case. But it just may be that the writers don't want to show them as distant (I'm betting on that), no matter how they'd actually show themselves in RHATO, Tec, etc.

----------


## TheCape

I think that Jason and his relation with the family works better when they had certain distance between then personally, he shouldn't be the black sheep or anything among those lines, but he should be at least a bit reluclant to participate in these kind of events, maybe he would do it for Alfred's birthday or when Bruce is obviouslly missing him. I don't know if i making sense is just a random idea that i have.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think that Jason and his relation with the family works better when they had certain distance between then personally, he shouldn't be the black sheep or anything among those lines, but he should be at least a bit reluclant to participate in these kind of events, maybe he would do it for Alfred's birthday or when Bruce is obviouslly missing him. I don't know if i making sense is just a random idea that i have.


I think the same too. Aside from RHATO, recently, off the top of my head, I've only seen Tec' managed this.

----------


## Zaresh

> I think the same too. Aside from RHATO, recently, off the top of my head, I've only seen Tec' managed this.


Since Rebirth he has shown himself in Batman (twice, one like two months ago) and Nightwing (once, and briefly, and it really wasn't a family reunion, just Dick and Jason working together). They want to connect him, that's clear for me at least, but I wouldn't say they're pushing him as a constant presence, like Dick o Damian seem to be across books. But he's there more than Cass or Tim. I would put him a little below Barbara level of implication, much like Kate, funny enough.

----------


## Aioros22

> My problem is more in that panel (assuming he is the one with the red shirt) he doesn't really act like he imo would around the family. Based on how he is written in his own book I think he would keep himself apart and not being the centre of attention.


We`ve seen Jason be _both_ brooding and social on his own book. 

The big issue, if there is one is if you very much prefer to be set in stone (in a manner of speaking) what Loedbell plays in RATHO about Jason not feeling his bat family as close kin compared to what he has with the Outlaws but that`s one writer and one book opposing all the others who are selling a big franchise. 

Understandably, we want more of the book`s core characterization to be spread out, so I get the frustations.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Personally, I just don't want him being type cast in the other books. I'd like to see him as a skilled individual and a well rounded character in other books and for writers to stop honing in on just one aspect of his character when they use him.

----------


## AJpyro

Got RHatO vol 3 today. Seems thicker than the last 2.

----------


## thebluefeline

Long time lurker here. Just wanted to make something as a tribute for death day before I go back to the shadows  :Wink:  a5f09146-e4f9-4295-a03b-fb9b82d83a4c.jpg
http://fav.me/dc9y2j8

----------


## G-Potion

> Long time lurker here. Just wanted to make something as a tribute for death day before I go back to the shadows  a5f09146-e4f9-4295-a03b-fb9b82d83a4c.jpg
> http://fav.me/dc9y2j8


But why would you go back? Stay. _Stayyyy_. I love your art style and would love to see you draw for other happier occasions as well. Welcome!!   :Big Grin:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Long time lurker here. Just wanted to make something as a tribute for death day before I go back to the shadows  a5f09146-e4f9-4295-a03b-fb9b82d83a4c.jpg
> http://fav.me/dc9y2j8


I love your art style. Please don't leave. We'd love it if you stayed around. Welcome.

----------


## thebluefeline

Thanks for the warm welcome  :Big Grin:  I'll do my best to try to be more active in the future  :Smile:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thanks for the warm welcome  I'll do my best to try to be more active in the future


You're welcome. I used to be a long time lurker here as well.  :Smile:

----------


## Zaresh

> Long time lurker here. Just wanted to make something as a tribute for death day before I go back to the shadows  a5f09146-e4f9-4295-a03b-fb9b82d83a4c.jpg
> http://fav.me/dc9y2j8


Welcome!

Stay.
We are better that any shadow.
Also, have candy and chocolate for free.
For Free!!!




> Thanks for the warm welcome  I'll do my best to try to be more active in the future


Good.

----------


## RedBird

> Long time lurker here. Just wanted to make something as a tribute for death day before I go back to the shadows  
> http://fav.me/dc9y2j8


I love Jason (Arkham) Red Hood gear in your style!

Also Welcome! And big thanks for the tribute art  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

_young Jason 

red hood_ 

firefly215

----------


## G-Potion

Ohh this piece is interesting...  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

One more
ketchup212

----------


## adrikito

> One more
> ketchup212


The issue where the Joker killed him was out that day?  :Confused:

----------


## Aahz

> The issue where the Joker killed him was out that day?


No, this date was given in a Jason's death certificate in Batman Annual #25.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I love Jason (Arkham) Red Hood gear in your style!
> 
> Also Welcome! And big thanks for the tribute art


Thank you! I took some liberties with the Robin outfit a bit, trying to match it closer to the comics version instead, but I absolutely adore the Red Hood gear from the game. I think it's my favorite design for the character  :Wink:  As for Jason himself, Dexter Soy's version tops off every other portrayal for me. He keeps him looking like the Red Hood character even without the helmet (calculating, aware, etc) but still manages to keep him looking his age. It's a very nice blend imo. And I love Scott Lobdell's take on the self-reflecting aspects of Jason's character. To me, it's a strength of Jason's character to be able to look back at his past and move on from it, something I don't think Bruce has done yet with his own. It makes him unique from the other members of the Batfamily I think since he's not fighting to change or correct the past but just trying to live with what he has in the present.

----------


## CPSparkles

Father and Son



http://godtierwonder.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://kuromameo.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

Bookmark!

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## Zaresh

> Bookmark!
> 
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


Ha ha. This one is brilliant.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Bookmark!
> 
> https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


A page marker. nice I want this

----------


## G-Potion

https://weibo.com/u/1697508225?refer_flag=1005055013_

----------


## G-Potion

Clips from Moscow Comic Con. So funnnn.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

何泽湚生

----------


## G-Potion

宅内什么

----------


## G-Potion

Didn't expect a second explosion of red basket art tbh.  :Embarrassment: 

悬空之人

----------


## G-Potion

悬空之人

----------


## G-Potion

LongTea長茶

There's one each for Tim and Damian in the link as well.

----------


## CPSparkles

> https://weibo.com/u/1697508225?refer_flag=1005055013_


I've noticed a lot of Robin food art. Am I missing something? Also now I'm very hungry.

Nice uploads by the way.

----------


## G-Potion

Aside from food being a favourite theme in fanarts in general? I guess because for Jason some food has been established as his favorite such as chili dogs (which Lobdell also will bring back in some way), and he has been eating a lot of burgers since Rebirth as well. With Dick I think it's cereal. Not sure if Damian and Tim have canon favorite food or the same amount of food themed arts though.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Aside from food being a favourite theme in fanarts in general? I guess because for Jason some food has been established as his favorite such as chili dogs (which Lobdell also will bring back in some way), and he has been eating a lot of burgers since Rebirth as well. With Dick I think it's cereal. Not sure if Damian and Tim have canon favorite food or the same amount of food themed arts though.


Never knew food was a popular theme in fanarts but now that you mention it. It clicks

lol yeah the two elder robins do have their signature canon dishes. Tim seems to favour Pizza I don't think Damian has a favourite dish

----------


## EMarie

Awhile back everyone drew Jason eating bread because they thought the panel of him eating it was hilarious. 

With Jason now I think fans just want to see him eating because he was always starving as a kid.

----------


## TheCape

> Aside from food being a favourite theme in fanarts in general? I guess because for Jason some food has been established as his favorite such as chili dogs (which Lobdell also will bring back in some way), and he has been eating a lot of burgers since Rebirth as well. With Dick I think it's cereal. Not sure if Damian and Tim have canon favorite food or the same amount of food themed arts though.


Tim apparently favour Pizza and Couffe according to tumblr  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## G-Potion

@EMarie 

Oh yes that too. Some of it were good fun, but on the other hand, I didn't like that people took it as bread being Jason's favorite food because the circumstance that he ate it wasn't really funny.

Mmmm I must admit I also love the headcanon that Jason is good at cooking.

----------


## TheCape

> LongTea長茶
> 
> There's one each for Tim and Damian in the link as well.


Pretty good fanarts, Damian and Tim version are good too.

----------


## G-Potion

> Tim apparently favour Pizza and Couffe according to tumblr .


Is it canon though? I hesitate to take tumblr's opinion, and imo when it comes to fandom Tim, it gets really weird.

----------


## Aioros22

> Didn't expect a second explosion of red basket art tbh. 
> 
> 悬空之人


With the movie now out it doesn't surprise me. It also helps he's got the cooler scenes among the Robin pack and takes on the bigger name opponents.

----------


## G-Potion

Have you watched it? I plan to but Divinity Original Sin is taking all my hours atm.

----------


## EMarie

> @EMarie 
> 
> Oh yes that too. Some of it were good fun, but on the other hand, I didn't like that people took it as bread being Jason's favorite food because the circumstance that he ate it wasn't really funny.
> 
> Mmmm I must admit I also love the headcanon that Jason is good at cooking.


Yeah it took place when Jason had brain damaged and was starving to death.

Ditto. It just seems likely since he basically had to look after himself and hung out with Alfred.

----------


## Aahz

> Tim apparently favour Pizza and Couffe according to tumblr .


When it comes to Pizza the only thing I can think of was that they ate it on his 16th Birthday. The Coffee thing has not really any base in canon.

----------


## TheCape

> Is it canon though? I hesitate to take tumblr's opinion, and imo when it comes to fandom Tim, it gets really weird.


Probably isn't and i don't take tumblr seriously when it comes to the batfamily (Tim and Dick specially)so no it probably isn't, he seems to prefer junk food a bit more in canon, but he also has to keep a healthy diet because of his work as a crime fighter, nothing specific when it comes to a favorite meal.

----------


## TheCape

> When it comes to Pizza the only thing I can think of was that they ate it on his 16th Birthday. The Coffee thing has not really any base in canon.


It doesn't have a base, i kind of confuse me frankly, but i wouldn't be surprised if King includes it in the future  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Aahz

> Oh yes that too. Some of it were good fun, but on the other hand, I didn't like that people took it as bread being Jason's favorite food because the circumstance that he ate it wasn't really funny.


Lobdell seems also to use it, there was for example flashback with him as a kid watching Dick in the circus.






> Mmmm I must admit I also love the headcanon that Jason is good at cooking.


That and him beeing into reading are probably the best of the common head canons.

----------


## EMarie

I'd take that more as Kirkham deciding to do that. Bread is usually around most houses and they seem to have brought stuff from home.

----------


## G-Potion

> That and him beeing into reading are probably the best of the common head canons.


The reading part DC seems to have picked up on with the way Jason is shown to be in possession of/reading/quoting books, and across different writers as well.

----------


## G-Potion

_Dead._ The Trinity disaster of a helmet is there too.

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___

----------


## Zaresh

> When it comes to Pizza the only thing I can think of was that they ate it on his 16th Birthday. The Coffee thing has not really any base in canon.


Would make sense, if it's about looking for energizing drinks. But in my headcanon, Tim is more of a tea guy if choosing any of the two, who is actually a chocolate junkie. Because there is no drug like black, almost pure chocolate to work with your tired brains. Not even coffee, and I'm a coffee addict.

And yes, Jason being deep into reading is canon at this point. He's been drawn reading and has mentioned books way more times than any other member of the Bat Family, I think.

(Also, hey, what's wrong with liking bread? I love bread, good bread is tasty. And you can even cock it: fried bread with sugar, ñam ñam  :Wink:  And let's not forget this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_toast)

----------


## Aahz

> And yes, Jason being deep into reading is canon at this point. He's been drawn reading and mentioning books way more times than any other member of the Bat Family, I think.


But I think the fans did it first. The writers only started quite recently with it, for a long time the scene in prison from Batman and Robin #23 was the only "evidence".

----------


## Zaresh

> But I think the fans did it first. The writers only started quite recently with it, for a long time the scene in prison from Batman and Robin #23 was the only "evidence".


Mmm, you may be right, but in any case, it'd be as old as New 52, and that's at least 6 years old. For a character that was almost reinvented twelve ago, it's a lot of his editorial history. I mean, still recent, but with some perspective into account, it's a lot.

It's not that he's shown reading everywhere, either, but at least it's something consistent, maybe?

----------


## Aioros22

I know, I know, it`s terrible. 

But the again, so in. 

http://lord-yamada.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

And since we`re talking about Jason and food, here`s a commission by Billy Tan

----------


## Restingvoice

> Lobdell seems also to use it, there was for example flashback with him as a kid watching Dick in the circus.
> 
> 
> 
> That and him beeing into reading are probably the best of the common head canons.


I like the subtle touch that he's eating the bread by crumbs. You can immediately tell their economical condition.

----------


## Zaresh

So it seems that Priest is using Jason after all. I don't know how to feel about it yet...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So it seems that Priest is using Jason after all. I don't know how to feel about it yet...


Is not much but he shows a much stronger grasp on Jason's character that King has ever shown. While Priest still relies on the reader having previous knowledge on Jason for the scene to work, it actually works neatly to move the plot themes rather than just being a "I ain't clever!? *WINK* *WINK*" moment like with King.

----------


## Zaresh

> Is not much but he shows a much stronger grasp on Jason's character that King has ever shown. While Priest still relies on the reader having previous knowledge on Jason for the scene to work, it actually works neatly to move the plot themes rather than just being a "I ain't clever!? *WINK* *WINK*" moment like with King.


Well, *spoilers:*
I can see that, at least, he's going to run some parallels between Joseph and Jason and their fathers (or fatherly figures). But I don't know how to feel about it because I recall you people talking about some interview in which he talked about Jason being jealous of Damian and that doesn't really fits Jason for me. But then, we're seeing a flashback-ish Jason, so... It may have changed his idea about how to use him? Or it's probably revolving around Jason and Dick rather than Damian. Or it's totally dropped as an element of this story. Or I'm straight misremembering stuff.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

What did I miss? Can I have a recap please?  :Smile:

----------


## Zaresh

> What did I miss? Can I have a recap please?


You know about this story arc for Deathstroke about Damian not being Bruce biological son, but Slade's? I'm not going to spoil this month's issue, but...

*spoilers:*
There are two 4 panel scenes, in black and white (flashbacks); in the first one, you see Jericho (Joey, the surviving son of Slade) speaking to the reader about his father's story, how he ended in the army and what he did there, what he did for his living, how he enjoys his work as a hired gun, and how that messed his relationship with his family. A few pages later, you see another 4 panels of a Robin-era Jason (well, I'm guessing he's Jay because what he says, how he says it and his hair, which is a giving), again in black and white, speaking to the reader about how Batman doesn't say to his Robins that he loves them, and how you have to fill those gaps and assume (pretend) that he loves them, but in the end, no matter how good you're as Robin (fighting crime, solving cases), they're not his sons: only weapons for his war.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aioros22

Nothing much, just another snip at both Joseph and Robin talking about their parents. It seems to be Jason and it would fit the character reaching DITF but it`s not confirmed on page. 

About the interview, Priest simply mixed up Jason for Tim when it comes to mention a point Pre Flashpoint where he was jealous of Damian and he likely did it because he had Jason in mind to use but that`s not an issue unless he actually uses older Jason. I`m thinking the reason he`s using a young Robin (past) contrasting with current Joseph`s testemony is to avoid confusions. This way everybody is relatively happy.

----------


## TheCape

> Nothing much, just another snip at both Joseph and Robin talking about their parents. It seems to be Jason and it would fit the character reaching DITF but it`s not confirmed on page. 
> 
> About the interview, Priest simply mixed up Jason for Tim when it comes to mention a point Pre Flashpoint where he was jealous of Damian and he likely did it because he had Jason in mind to use but that`s not an issue unless he actually uses older Jason. I`m thinking the reason he`s using a young Robin (past) contrasting with current Joseph`s testemony is to avoid confusions. This way everybody is relatively happy.


Is more like Priest is using the sons as his mouthpieces to what he thinks about Batman and Deathstroke, Jason comments about how "Batman shouldn't even own a goldfish" is pretty much what he said about Bruce when he was talking about Dick after the whole Lazarus Contract storyline.

----------


## Aioros22

Certainly but it doesn't create any out of character use within context unless it's current Jason being jealous of Damian which is what people were concerned about. 

You'll likely not see either Joseph or Jason/Robin outside this frame.

----------


## G-Potion

@Zaresh: Thanks for the answer! So on one hand, yeah, it's much more substantial than what King throws at us times and again. But like Dark said, it needs previous knowledge of the character to mentally fit this into somewhere near DITF timeline rather than taking this scene as how robin Jay generally felt about Bruce, because that is just depressing.

----------


## EMarie

Are they going back to the old costumes? I hope not, I never liked Jason wearing that look. Not only didn't it fit him but I didn't like the idea of him being forced into looking like Dick.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s the classic costume but you only really see the cape and collar. 

Interestingly and this may be Priest playing around readers on who it is, there is a page where he`s thinking about his parents IIRC and he`s looking at a photo with Jason and Dick in it.

----------


## Aahz

It could also be Dick, people seem to forget it, but his relation with Batman was also not that great for a good part of the pre flashpoint era.

----------


## Aahz

> Are they going back to the old costumes? I hope not, I never liked Jason wearing that look. Not only didn't it fit him but I didn't like the idea of him being forced into looking like Dick.


I would prefer if they would give Jason a more unique design for his Robin costume. The new 52 is imo still to similar to the classic version.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is not much but he shows a much stronger grasp on Jason's character that King has ever shown. While Priest still relies on the reader having previous knowledge on Jason for the scene to work, it actually works neatly to move the plot themes rather than just being a "I ain't clever!? *WINK* *WINK*" moment like with King.


After that diabolical with Damian in the Judas Contract I simply don't trust Priest with any Bat character regardless of how "well" he might handle them. I'll always expect something he does with them to slap me in the face at some point regardless so I simply stay away from his work with them period. Handling him better than King or anyone else isn't enough for me to applaud him for his use of Jason here. I don't feel he has an adequate grasp on the characters personally. That's just my opinion though and I am a bit salty still over the mis-characterization of Damian so that is definitely coloring my opinion.

----------


## EMarie

> It could also be Dick, people seem to forget it, but his relation with Batman was also not that great for a good part of the pre flashpoint era.


I remember that, I just didn't read the issue. They got into some nasty arguments and fist fights.




> I would prefer if they would give Jason a more unique design for his Robin costume. The new 52 is imo still to similar to the classic version.


It has some nods to the original but Jason still has things that are uniquely his in the design. Depending on how much of the Rocafort look artists keep. It has to look somewhat like the original because of the DITF/case fame. But I find his costume to be far better than Dick's redesign.

----------


## TheCape

> I remember that, I just didn't read the issue. They got into some nasty arguments and fist fights.
> 
> 
> 
> It has some nods to the original but Jason still has things that are uniquely his in the design. Depending on how much of the Rocafort look artists keep. It has to look somewhat like the original because of the DITF/case fame. But I find his costume to be far better than Dick's redesign.


Yeah, i remenber the argument that they had after Dick find out about Jason's death, it was really ugly.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, i remenber the argument that they had after Dick find out about Jason's death, it was really ugly.


They were more or less constantly fighting from roughly the beginning of the Teen Titans up to maybe OYL.

----------


## G-Potion

So I've been staying away from Batman. Can anyone explain to me what happened here?

----------


## Katana500

> So I've been staying away from Batman. Can anyone explain to me what happened here?


Booster Gold messed up the timeline trying to get Bruce a wedding gift.

If this world the Al Ghul's control all of Eurasia, Gotham is in a perpetual state of disorder due to Joker attacks. 

Jason Todd invented electricity tires which kill the jokers which tried to steal them. But something so dangerous caused loads of accidents and now 17 children are dead.

That said the Jason in this world seems to be having a better time than Duke who was lobotomised or Damian who never even got born.

----------


## Aahz

> If this world the Al Ghul's control all of Eurasia, Gotham is in a perpetual state of disorder due to Joker attacks.


Which raises the question how there is Joker in the first place, since iirc without Batman he wouldn't have fallen in the chemicals.

----------


## Aioros22

Predestination Paradox. 

What event needs to happen will happen, regardless if it happens in the way it originally happened. Now, whether King intended that way...the big problema is that he`s likely applying the trope rule in ways it reeks of self stroking and the absurd, down to stuff like Blue and the JL dying because "Batman isn`t there to be the strategist" (probably the dumbest thing King has alluded to in his run) or Selina being a serial killer just because Bruce wasn`t Batman, which would be out of bounds for a closed time loop since he originally had no stake on Selina being Catwoman at all. 

But yeah, that`s the geist. Everything in Gotham is awol because of that one detail and even the ones who are seemingly happy, like Jason, will end up being charged for collateral damage for the greater good, in this case, zapping the Jokers that storm the city.

----------


## G-Potion

@Katana500: Thanks!!

So it happened the way I feared. In a way I feel this might be the lowest King's brought Jason down from his core character mainly because he went from a character who gets triggered at cruelty to children to one who can look pretty unapologetic to the deaths that he inadvertently caused.

----------


## G-Potion

Talia and Jason (I think). Not gonna lie, after Roy, Talia is the one that I want to make an appearance in RHATO the most. She can have a meaningful role there with how interesting her dynamic with Jason is, rather than being one note crazy/jealous and getting stepped on in other books.

https://weibo.com/u/3567582225?refer_flag=1005055013_

----------


## Zaresh

I usually like King's work a lot, and honestly, I'm disliking his Batman. This really feels not good, to say it kindly. I guess writting for a biweeky book isn't a good idea for his capacities and strenghts.

This take on Jason was fun the first time he cameo'd, but now it really doesn't sit well on me for the very reasons @G-Pots stated already. And I also have serious problems with Duke and Dick. I get it, this is a really twisted reality in which everyone is messed up. But it just doesn't feel right how some are depicted. Or how some get to their places, like Dick being Batman: I can see him being a vigilante, but why the bat motive? It doesn't make sense.

Oh well, I'll wait until it ends to really judge this arc; there may be a reason for everything in the end beyond the rules of cool and fun.

----------


## RedBird

> So I've been staying away from Batman. Can anyone explain to me what happened here?


Yikes
I didnt get to visit my comic book store this week, so when my girlfriend warned me that booster was still pretty ooc this week I was....kinda hesitant to pick up Batman again. Thanks for this post, now I know not to waste my money this week.

Good god.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh well, I'll wait until it ends to really judge this arc; there may be a reason for everything in the end beyond the rules of cool and fun.


Going by past arcs, I'm thinking large chance there won't be any answer or reason. King is not known for tying up loose ends after all.

----------


## G-Potion

I was honestly hoping there were more to this because I saw this on tumblr and no one has reacted negatively to this.

----------


## G-Potion

I guess these are official art? So cool but Jason could be taller...!

https://weibo.com/ploywu?refer_flag=1005055013_





Link for the last one because spoilery: https://i.imgur.com/7vdN1vb.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

I`ve seen negative reactions towards the current issue`s use of Jason on Tumblr. Not the last issue, which admittedly _was_ funny but this one is just what Dark says, King acting on self importance to the reader. One of the reactions was even that King simply doesn`t get any of the bat characters, not even Bruce. 

But it`s just worse if you`re a Booster fan because this is just assassine. There`s no interesting character bits and deepeness after you read similarlybetterdone plots on time travel that he had to fix due to his own lack of experience (at least going by the two issues, I have yet to see it) shortcomings or outside interferences with King simply outing him as an ignorimous caricature so he can tell this wreck of a story that is lacking direction and purpose and all just so you can go to a stupid wedding gawking how important and big this guy is in the scope of the DCU whether it makes narrative sense or not. I`m surprise that Bruce not being Batman didn`t stop the Greek Gods from existing on Earth and give birth to Wonder Woman. 

This was probably the worst issue of the entire year so far and we`re not even at the wedding. Imagine that, a wedding as the excuse for a multi title event.  Grab your chairs at the excitement. 

Yawn.

----------


## JimmySpectre

Titles for the first 9 episodes of Titans revealed

----------


## Katana500

> Titles for the first 9 episodes of Titans revealed


very exciting!!

----------


## Zaresh

> Titles for the first 9 episodes of Titans revealed


Mmmmm...

Doesn't it look like each episode, with the exception of the first one and the middle season (5-6), is centered around members / allies of the team? I don't know a lot about the Titans but it feels like that. Can it be?

----------


## Restingvoice

Doom Patrol would be Beast Boy
I don't know The Messenger and Angela

----------


## Aahz

> Doom Patrol would be Beast Boy
> I don't know The Messenger and Angela


Angela is Ravens mother.

----------


## Jackalope89

And, I'm assuming since Dick is still Robin in the beginning of the series, at least, Jason will be on his way to becoming the 2nd Robin. And could be scoping out his predecessor, or checking in with his adopted older brother. Or there to be an ass. Or all of the above.

Probably all of the above.

So, Boosterpoint aside, what do people think of Jason and Artemis over in RHatO? Just curious.

----------


## Moonwix

> Titles for the first 9 episodes of Titans revealed


I am still not sold on the show until I see a trailer. Even then, I will have to wait for a positive review, i still don't trust DC/WB to do a decent live action  team, after they screwed up justice league. But it is cool to have Jason on the show.

----------


## G-Potion

> So, Boosterpoint aside, what do people think of Jason and Artemis over in RHatO? Just curious.


I think whether it will go a step further romantically or forever remains a possibility, I like the current pacing. We have attraction, but of course that's not a guarantee that a definite outcome has to come out of it. I like that Lobdell has the characters put it on hold because there are more important matters at hand. Personally though, I'd love it if they explore the platonic relationship angle more because it's rarer and so more interesting to me.

----------


## The Dying Detective

It'll be funny if Lobdell doesn't go through with it not when Artemis and Jason seem to be made for each other regardless of what others think.

----------


## Aahz

> I am still not sold on the show until I see a trailer. Even then, I will have to wait for a positive review, i still don't trust DC/WB to do a decent live action  team, after they screwed up justice league. But it is cool to have Jason on the show.


I think it will be more comparible with the CW shows than with the DCEU, my bigger problem is that it look way to cheap for a Titans show.

I'm also wondering how this stuff with the Streaming service is supposed to work out for us non Americans. (based on the performance the last seasons of the CW shows had, I'm not even sure that it will get here)

----------


## G-Potion

Curious. In which way are they made for each other? I like their banter but I still don't see how they work better as a couple than say, Jason and Isabel, or Jason and Essence, if the latters get the same screentime and development effort.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Curious. In which way are they made for each other? I like their banter but I still don't see how they work better as a couple than say, Jason and Isabel, or Jason and Essence, if the latters get the same screentime and development effort.


I don't know maybe it has something to do with them being flawed versions of the characters they are tied to. And they are not above killing when necessary. Still like Jason's other pairing he and Artemis need a lot of development to see where they can go as a couple. Plus Artemis is actually staying because of Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...31705087397890

----------


## Aioros22

> I think it will be more comparible with the CW shows than with the DCEU, my bigger problem is that it look way to cheap for a Titans show.
> 
> I'm also wondering how this stuff with the Streaming service is supposed to work out for us non Americans. (based on the performance the last seasons of the CW shows had, I'm not even sure that it will get here)


You should compare the production value with the level of other shows of the same genre. You don't have another Titans to call this one cheap on name alone. 

If this looks anything like the other CW superhero on the screen, then it's a good start.

----------


## EMarie

For me personally I would like Jason and Artemis to go there but I'm not trying to get invested since Lobdell doesn't sound like he's going that way in interviews. I've given this some thought after reading this comment:




> Curious. In which way are they made for each other? I like their banter but I still don't see how they work better as a couple than say, Jason and Isabel, or Jason and Essence, if the latters get the same screentime and development effort.


At this point I wouldn't say any of them were made for each other. I like the dynamic between Artemis and Jason, which seems more intense than with the other two ladies. Essence has baggage with Jason and they really didn't have many touching moments between them. In fact she tricked Jason into doing her dirty work and almost killed the team until Jason sent her a way. Wasn't she supposed to be the one that killed the All Caste before Tynion retconned it? Either way she seems too manipulative and I say that as someone that finds her fascinating.

Isabel might have grounded Jason but his discomfort with trying to be normal was obvious. It might have changed, it might not of. But his life was apparently too much for her.

Artemis and Jason have a lot of significant looks. He's comfortable enough around her to be extremely vulnerable with personal information and their physically comfortable around each other in a short space of time. As in they allow invasions of personal space and physical touching. Artemis seems to enjoy teasing Jason and in hindsight her comments to Dick were odd. I think there's at least an attraction but Artemis is more cautious.

----------


## Aahz

> You should compare the production value with the level of other shows of the same genre. You don't have another Titans to call this one cheap on name alone.


 :Confused: 

I just think that based on what I have seen now, that show will have a production value similar to the CW shows at best, and that imo not enough for something like Titans. Thats the same problem Inhumans had.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah I'll concede that Jason is shown to be more at ease with Artemis. However, the Jason that Artemis knows isn't the Jason that Essence and Isabel knew. He's already soften up quite a lot by Roy and Kory. 

But as you said, nothing is indicative that they are made for each other. I don't agree with The Dying Detective that being flawed versions of their counterparts make them an automatic fit. For me Artemis is a blank slate at the moment, and until more is known about her, it's hard to say whether she's the one for Jason. 

I still resent that the story with Essence was dropped because Lobdell could have gone a lot of ways with her and that made her fascinating to me as well. 

Even as a civillian, Isabel handled herself fine in the space arc. It was Tynion that decided to break them up iirc?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yeah I'll concede that Jason is shown to be more at ease with Artemis. But as you said, nothing is indicative that they are made for each other. I don't agree with The Dying Detective that being flawed versions of their counterparts make them an automatic fit. For me Artemis is a blank slate at the moment, and until more is known about her, it's hard to say whether she's the one for Jason. 
> 
> I still resent that the story with Essence was dropped because Lobdell could have gone a lot of ways with her and that made her fascinating to me as well. 
> 
> Even as a civillian, Isabel handled herself fine in the space arc. It was Tynion that decided to break them up iirc?


Well, the latest issue of Red Hood is looking to explore Artemis' background, and it seems, like Jason, she had quite the past. Whereas Jason was a half-crazed, shoot-em-up vigilante, Artemis was a mercenary.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well, the latest issue of Red Hood is looking to explore Artemis' background, and it seems, like Jason, she had quite the past. Whereas Jason was a half-crazed, shoot-em-up vigilante, Artemis was a mercenary.


I wonder if the secrets Artemis kept from the team is gonna create some tension. Jason has been very open but Artemis isn't so trusting. As Lobdell said, "things are going to get even worse emotionally for all three of them in the coming months."

----------


## Aioros22

> I just think that based on what I have seen now, that show will have a production value similar to the CW shows at best, and that imo not enough for something like Titans. Thats the same problem Inhumans had.


Eh, I think it`s doable after they`ve decided to tackle Legends which is a big cast with several crossovers.

----------


## EMarie

> Yeah I'll concede that Jason is shown to be more at ease with Artemis. However, the Jason that Artemis knows isn't the Jason that Essence and Isabel knew. He's already soften up quite a lot by Roy and Kory.


How much Jason told her of his past is up for debate since he apparently told her information off panel like his death. Artemis has to have heard what Jason was like when he became first Red Hood just based on the street cred he has in their undercover. Isabel didn't really see much of Jason, definitely not at his worst. Artemis probably will soon. 




> But as you said, nothing is indicative that they are made for each other. I don't agree with The Dying Detective that being flawed versions of their counterparts make them an automatic fit. For me Artemis is a blank slate at the moment, and until more is known about her, it's hard to say whether she's the one for Jason.


I don't agree with that either. I've read other titles with Artemis and I have a fairly good idea what she's like. Lobdell is writing a new story for her but I don't think that will affect how I feel. Their interactions do.




> I still resent that the story with Essence was dropped because Lobdell could have gone a lot of ways with her and that made her fascinating to me as well. 
> 
> Even as a civillian, Isabel handled herself fine in the space arc. It was Tynion that decided to break them up iirc?


I like Essence just not as a romantic option for Jason. I'd rather see what Lobdell intended beyond that rather than the story we got. We don't know how Isabel would have handled it long term. I was rooting for the relationship before Tynion ended it.

----------


## TheCape

Seeing that we are talking about romance for Jason again, what would you like to see with the characther if they decide to explore that avenue, wheter with an already stablished characther (Artemis, Essence, take your pick) or a new characther.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Seeing that we are talking about romance for Jason again, what would you like to see with the characther if they decide to explore that avenue, wheter with an already stablished characther (Artemis, Essence, take your pick) or a new characther.


I think there's some real potential with Artemis, if Lobdell ever actually does it, that is. The two both have had rather dark pasts, but are overcoming those pasts bit by bit.

----------


## The Dying Detective

In a way Jason and Artemis have done somethings for each other emotionally as a lot of couples do in fictional romance which generally helps facilitate growths of character. Well Jason has anyway as he got her to open up and helped as Akila went crazy and finally died. And she was a little instrumental helping Dick and Jason grow closer.

----------


## G-Potion

Mercenaries
https://www.**********.com/ultrayady8

----------


## adrikito

> mercenaries
> https://www.**********.com/ultrayady8


wow. Amazing images.

----------


## Rac7d*

Was jason ever a merc

----------


## SpentShrimp

I still wanted to see the Red Hood and Batgirl relationship happen. That could have been a fun one to see.

----------


## Alycat

> Seeing that we are talking about romance for Jason again, what would you like to see with the characther if they decide to explore that avenue, wheter with an already stablished characther (Artemis, Essence, take your pick) or a new characther.


Artemis. I hated Essence.  I liked Supergirl buuuut she's been deaged.




> I still wanted to see the Red Hood and Batgirl relationship happen. That could have been a fun one to see.


Ehh, it was okay, but like his friendship with Kory or Roy for me, I think most people see those characters as Dick's friends/circle.  I like the Robins having their own people/circle of friends that overlap a little but not too much. It's why this version of the Outlaws is so much better for me and why Titans/Teen Titans is such a mess. I relaize that its harder for Jason to have that with his circumstances, but still.

----------


## EMarie

> Was jason ever a merc


I think the hero for hire business Roy started in Red Hood/Arsenal was the closest he's gotten.

----------


## Aioros22

He also accepted a job against Deathstroke in the New52.

----------


## Aahz

> He also accepted a job against Deathstroke in the New52.


That was iirc part of his business with Arsenal.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Artemis. I hated Essence.  I liked Supergirl buuuut she's been deaged.


This is probably a bad thing but what about Faye Gunn Jr. as a love interest for Jason?

----------


## EMarie

> This is probably a bad thing but what about Faye Gunn Jr. as a love interest for Jason?


At this stage all we know about her is that she's Ma Gunn's granddaughter. We don't know what kind of personality she has. Is she a civilian? Is she a villain? Something else?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> At this stage all we know about her is that she's Ma Gunn's granddaughter. We don't know what kind of personality she has. Is she a civilian? Is she a villain? Something else?


Well there is one thing that is could be clear is that Faye Gunn Jr. is possibly Julia Pennyworth's counterpart just as Ma Gunn has some what become Alfred's counterpart and Julia and Bruce have dated at least in the old canon but there is some sort of relationship between currently.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Seeing that we are talking about romance for Jason again, what would you like to see with the characther if they decide to explore that avenue, wheter with an already stablished characther (Artemis, Essence, take your pick) or a new characther.


Honestly that's a hard one. There's a few characters I would honestly see him working well with in regard to heroes. Supergirl -if she was older, although how old is Jason supposed to be right now? Tim is 16, Dick is 25 or 26, Damian is 13, isn't Jason supposed to be like 18 to 21 at oldest? Kara could provide a rather different view point and someone that could honestly help him deal with his darker past as she's had her own issues with family and her cousin. 

Another one would be someone like Argent, or even better Cyclone from the JSA. Max is a high ranked student at Harvard, his age as well, and someone that is opposite Jason in a lot of ways but has a direct connection to a legacy character and also I think she would be able to perk him up a lot more when he's in a dark place. She was studying Musical theater but also apparently some Psychology as well at the time that Johns was writing her in the JSA. I would have liked to have seen that pairing as it could be something that brought up a lot of dynamics between them. 

Outside of DC directly....weirdly enough, I would say Kitty Pryde. Kitty and Jason share a lot in common regarding attitude and view point in regard to handling situations. Kitty is, techinically older then Jason I think, maybe she might be closer to Dick's age. But when has that ever stopped him before. Or at least someone like Kitty could be interesting. 

Civilian, I would say that the person would have to be someone who has a connection to the world where Jason came from. Someone who knows how hard life was and that they wanted to help others in that situation. I kind of always wanted a Jason book kind of like how Dare devil is more street wise in regard to things. Maybe someone like Leslie who is taking care of the area helping the community in some way and Jason works as a detective or some sort of PI covering things, funded by Bruce. I would say the personality would be someone that could be sassy but serious and also someone who could hold their own against him in his darker moments. As well as someone who doesn't back down on others and is willing to work for what they believe in .

----------


## Zaresh

So here I am, making a post to tell you guys I've just read something I enjoyed a lot when I realized that it may be a not really lasting theme for a discussion because tomorrow we will have RHATO back, thankfully. But nevertheless, I should proceed!

This pass month I've been working at a job I dislike as telephone operator (didn't get that post as librarian I liked, unfortunately) and studying for public exams for the chance of being a high school teacher. So because I'm always in the need for a break, I keep reading fics (and other stuff, and watching some tv shows and movies I could honestly have saved myself from). Today I've read certain work that made me look back at what I've enjoyed, and thought "maybe I could updated those folks, right?". So here it is, some new stories you could give a peek at.

Cyrcle of Life: chibi_nightowl is a heavy JayTim shipper, I know, but this one shot story is totally Jason centered, to the point it could be seem as some introspective story of Jason about himself... with him as a winter's POV. Pretty good, and fun if you are into meta writing like myself.6645 Charlotte Street: another one shot. Here we have Jason being sick and Bruce being an actual human being who cares and has feels and emotions. This is basically Jason and Bruce bonding in his temporal illness, in his personal home, and Bruce discovering both. I liked it; it may have a bit of angst, but it's warm overall.Cracked Foundation: this one is a ten part story with Jason and Damian bonding as brothers. Its start is a bit weak, and the first sections of Bruce and Jim are a bit not in character, imho. But it gets a lot better soon. Nonetheless, it has good takes on Jason and Damian, and has good writing and a satisfactory resolution that fits the whole story. Funny btw, I've noticed a lot of new DamiJay fics lately.Verdant: this one is old, but I wouldn't recommend it earlier because it wasn't really that good in my opinion. Though, it has really picked up and gotten more interesting and better written in the most recent chapters. It has a decent start: Talia saves Jason using the pit, then runaways with him and brings him to Bruce in good terms. Things happen, but not much of a plot. And still doesn't seem to have an actual plot, but now it does have more of a direction. It's a nice read, you may like it.And a reminder than "Dum Spiro, Spero", the (so far) last instance in the Dreamscape series, has finished; and that the latest episode in the "see how deep the bullet lies" series is really starting to get into actual plot besides the family drama (that is also bringing some sweet brotherly DickJay moments).

That's all for now  :Cool: .

----------


## kaimaciel

So, this happened.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So, this happened.


Unless this is an elaborate joke I'm missing, the whole thing is listing stuff caused by the format/rating, conveniently leaving out stuff from the film, failing to engage with the plot or downright nitpicking.

Avoid watching.

----------


## Jackalope89

> So, this happened.


He nitpicks every movie like that. Even normally highly praised and successful films. 

His best though, are Dragon Ball Evolution (the ONLY time the original source material has ever been referenced in comparison) and The Last Airbender.

----------


## G-Potion

> So here I am, making a post to tell you guys I've just read something I enjoyed a lot when I realized that it may be a not really lasting theme for a discussion because tomorrow we will have RHATO back, thankfully. But nevertheless, I should proceed!
> 
> This pass month I've been working at a job I dislike as telephone operator (didn't get that post as librarian I liked, unfortunately) and studying for public exams for the chance of being a high school teacher. So because I'm always in the need for a break, I keep reading fics (and other stuff, and watching some tv shows and movies I could honestly have saved myself from). Today I've read certain work that made me look back at what I've enjoyed, and thought "maybe I could updated those folks, right?". So here it is, some new stories you could give a peek at.
> 
> Cyrcle of Life: chibi_nightowl is a heavy JayTim shipper, I know, but this one shot story is totally Jason centered, to the point it could be seem as some introspective story of Jason about himself... with him as a winter's POV. Pretty good, and fun if you are into meta writing like myself.6645 Charlotte Street: another one shot. Here we have Jason being sick and Bruce being an actual human being who cares and has feels and emotions. This is basically Jason and Bruce bonding in his temporal illness, in his personal home, and Bruce discovering both. I liked it; it may have a bit of angst, but it's warm overall.Cracked Foundation: this one is a ten part story with Jason and Damian bonding as brothers. Its start is a bit weak, and the first sections of Bruce and Jim are a bit not in character, imho. But it gets a lot better soon. Nonetheless, it has good takes on Jason and Damian, and has good writing and a satisfactory resolution that fits the whole story. Funny btw, I've noticed a lot of new DamiJay fics lately.Verdant: this one is old, but I wouldn't recommend it earlier because it wasn't really that good in my opinion. Though, it has really picked up and gotten more interesting and better written in the most recent chapters. It has a decent start: Talia saves Jason using the pit, then runaways with him and brings him to Bruce in good terms. Things happen, but not much of a plot. And still doesn't seem to have an actual plot, but now it does have more of a direction. It's a nice read, you may like it.And a reminder than "Dum Spiro, Spero", the (so far) last instance in the Dreamscape series, has finished; and that the latest episode in the "see how deep the bullet lies" series is really starting to get into actual plot besides the family drama (that is also bringing some sweet brotherly DickJay moments).
> 
> That's all for now .


Hey thanks for giving an overall impression on these fics. Most of these I've only skimmed through, not sure if they're what I want to read. With your review though, now I'll patiently sit back and enjoy some of them.

Recently I've noticed there are more fics exploring Jason and his dynamics with the family. While I love this development, the lack of actual plot and the over abundance of angst tire me out a bit. For that reason, The coroner of his eye by Aaren is a really refreshing read as it brings humor to the tension between Bruce and Jason. I'd recommend it.

----------


## Alycat

> Unless this is an elaborate joke I'm missing, the whole thing is listing stuff caused by the format/rating, conveniently leaving out stuff from the film, failing to engage with the plot or downright nitpicking.
> 
> Avoid watching.


Sounds like Cinemasins alright! I stand by my opinion that Honest trailers are a better and funnier way to be nitpicky.




> Hey thanks for giving an overall impression on these fics. Most of these I've only skimmed through, not sure if they're what I want to read. With your review though, now I'll patiently sit back and enjoy some of them.
> 
> Recently I've noticed there are more fics exploring Jason and his dynamics with the family. While I love this development, the lack of actual plot and the over abundance of angst tire me out a bit. For that reason, The coroner of his eye by Aaren is a really refreshing read as it brings humor to the tension between Bruce and Jason. I'd recommend it.


That is my main problem with a lot of Jason fics and writers. Like I get it, some of them are pretty upset with DC's Jason treatment yada yada, but way too often that also comes across in their writing and how they treat their characters that are not Jason. Double iffy if I go to their tumblr and its like "Well I did'nt read the source material but......"

----------


## Zaresh

Yes! I've been reading coroner too. Nice reading. I was giving it a few more chapters until adding it to my bookmark list. I enjoyed last chapter a lot, with Dick's never ending reprimand, and am wondering where it will go with the murdering plot, so that and see the delivering of the death jokes are cool possitive points. I follow and encourage others to take your rec, @G-Pots.

And glad to be of some help!

----------


## G-Potion

Lobdell and a mini Red Hood.  :Embarrassment: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BihUMHUj...death_star_soy

----------


## G-Potion

Oh, and I missed the Happy Death Day 2 announcement. Wonder if Lobdell is involved this time.

----------


## G-Potion

More Robins and food.

https://weibo.com/u/3316407330?refer_flag=1005055013_

----------


## G-Potion

https://weibo.com/u/3316407330?refer_flag=1005055013_

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___

----------


## G-Potion

He would.  :Big Grin: 

http://octoaliencowboy.tumblr.com/post/173717515511

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I can't fully show the #covers I'm doing before they are announced, but only a little bit does not harm, right? #Bizarro #Redhood #Outlaws #DCcomics


https://twitter.com/GuillemMarch/sta...60548510928897

----------


## Aioros22

I just love Biz`s S shield and darker shade of blue.

----------


## Aioros22

https://pevvk.tumblr.com/


http://3eden.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

http://3eden.tumblr.com/


https://sapgiant.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

http://ghostyartblog.tumblr.com/

----------


## Celgress

> http://ghostyartblog.tumblr.com/


And the answer is yes lol

----------


## RedBird

Jim Lee

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That is pretty good!

And I see the Red Bat is here to stay.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jim Lee


Cool design! Love the trenchcoat.

----------


## G-Potion

https://pentapoda.tumblr.com/

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## G-Potion

Brett Booth

Has he ever drawn Red Hood before? This looks amazingly good.


‏

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Moonwix

> Brett Booth
> 
> Has he ever drawn Red Hood before? This looks amazingly good.
> 
> 
> ‏


That's so cool. Still not a fan of the redhood mask drawn with a mouth.

----------


## RedBird

ketchup212

----------


## RedBird

> Brett Booth
> 
> Has he ever drawn Red Hood before? This looks amazingly good.
> ‏


Hmm. I'm pretty sure he drew Red Hood in Teen Titans 16 in new52. That one issue where he and Tim are forced by the joker to 'battle each other'.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hmm. I'm pretty sure he drew Red Hood in Teen Titans 16 in new52. That one issue where he and Tim are forced by the joker to 'battle each other'.


Oh yes, thanks! I knew his RH looked familiar somehow.

----------


## G-Potion

http://karinmin0507.tumblr.com/post/173826043522

----------


## AJpyro

> http://karinmin0507.tumblr.com/post/173826043522


Is this a Punisher homage?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Oh yes, thanks! I knew his RH looked familiar somehow.


Booth also drew the Joker's bit on RHATO #0

----------


## G-Potion

> Booth also drew the Joker's bit on RHATO #0


Cool, thanks!!  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

http://aurianeremond.tumblr.com/post/173751681178

----------


## oasis1313

> That's so cool. Still not a fan of the redhood mask drawn with a mouth.


Looks pretty awesome.  I agree that mouth movements could be pretty difficult when you're wearing a helmet.  BTW, I love all the Jason fan-art that's been posted on this thread!

----------


## Aioros22

Not a major fan of Booth but I think that may be more with the inks than his pencils. I think he draws always the same body type but there`s no way that piece isn`t awesome. He`s got a great deal of hand for dinamic movement. 

Even with the mouth, which shouldn`t be there.

----------


## G-Potion

Finally?

https://twitter.com/Injustice2Go

----------


## RedBird

I know this isn't exclusively about Jason, but since his alter ego is the newest and most recent edition to the collection, I'm pretty sure its what sparked this great fan art.

Introducing: Matches Malones family
polmcarts

----------


## G-Potion

lol that's all kinds of awesome!!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aahz

> Brett Booth
> 
> Has he ever drawn Red Hood before? This looks amazingly good.
> 
> 
> ‏


He drew the Teen Titans tie in to DitF where Jason and Tim were caught by the Joker.

----------


## Aioros22

Man the Malones look awesome. 

I`d buy that shite.

----------


## TheCape

> I know this isn't exclusively about Jason, but since his alter ego is the newest and most recent edition to the collection, I'm pretty sure its what sparked this great fan art.
> 
> Introducing: Matches Malone’s family
> polmcarts


That is cool image, althougth Tim is technically a Drapper  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I know this isn't exclusively about Jason, but since his alter ego is the newest and most recent edition to the collection, I'm pretty sure its what sparked this great fan art.
> 
> Introducing: Matches Malones family
> polmcarts


This looks amazing...

Which one is Jason? The one next to Matches or the one by Alfred?

----------


## Zaresh

> This looks amazing...
> 
> Which one is Jason? The one next to Matches or the one by Alfred?


The one with Bruce.
The other one is Dick, I think.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason is the tallest one next to Bruce (aka Matches Malone) wearing sunglasses, the three piece suit and the moustache. It`s the disguise he`s seen wearing while infiltrating as a player in Penguin`s Casino two issues ago. Dick is sporting the 90s`s styled ponytail and open chest hair he used to rock as a diaguise in Titans.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason is the tallest one next to Bruce (aka Matches Malone) wearing sunglasses, the three piece suit and the moustache. It`s the disguise he`s seen wearing while infiltrating as a player in Penguin`s Casino two issues ago. Dick is sporting the 90s`s styled ponytail and open chest hair he used to rock as a diaguise in Titans.


And Tim is wearing his Alvin Draper Disguise.
And Damian iirc used this Outfit when he teamed up with Kara pre flashpoint.

----------


## SpentShrimp

Tim looks like he has....has....BEEN TO THIS PLACE BEFORE! HIGHER ON THE STREETS!

----------


## kiwiliko

I love how much it looks like most of the family at least made the attempt for realistic facial hair where Jason may as well have stuck on a dollar store jokestache.

----------


## Zaresh

Looks like out guy is going to have some circunstancial kitchen time in his wedding tie-in (that knife is a kitchen knife, right?). This picture I'm linking (because I don't know how to insert) is from Javier Fernández's Instagram.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looks like out guy is going to have some circunstancial kitchen time in his wedding tie-in (that knife is a kitchen knife, right?). This picture I'm linking (because I don't know how to insert) is from Javier Fernández's Instagram.


Was hoping there would be a makeshift champaign club as indicated in the cover but kitchen knife is pretty boss too. 

Inserted the picture for easy viewing.

----------


## G-Potion

> I love how much it looks like most of the family at least made the attempt for realistic facial hair where Jason may as well have stuck on a dollar store jokestache.


@Kiwiiiii where have you beeen   :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

So they saved Red Hood for the Anniversary update.

----------


## Zaresh

> Was hoping there would be a makeshift champaign club as indicated in the cover but kitchen knife is pretty boss too. 
> 
> *Inserted the picture for easy viewing.*


Thank you very much.

Looking forward that update, even if I don't own the game (but I can watch YT videos, so...)

----------


## kiwiliko

> @Kiwiiiii where have you beeen


Rode out my post-finals happiness and then got hit hard with summer school, I cry.

But also seeing as it's summer now, it looks like a lot of DC fanwork events are being kickstarted so if anyone wants to join one, looks like DCU bang is making an entrance again http://dcubang.tumblr.com/

@G wink wink nudge nudge some of you guys have pretty neat fanarts so I certainly wouldn't mind seeing you guys at trades/collab events  :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> Rode out my post-finals happiness and then got hit hard with summer school, I cry.
> 
> But also seeing as it's summer now, it looks like a lot of DC fanwork events are being kickstarted so if anyone wants to join one, looks like DCU bang is making an entrance again http://dcubang.tumblr.com/
> 
> @G wink wink nudge nudge some of you guys have pretty neat fanarts so I certainly wouldn't mind seeing you guys at trades/collab events


Not that I'm fast enough to pull arts for a comic or a timed event, but what's this exactly? I've read a few posts and I don't get the gist of it yet.

----------


## G-Potion

Wasn't planning to do DCU Bang because the months ahead are gonna be crazy for me. Still waiting for Aioros22's greenlight to get our collaboration started however.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

Not forgotten, chap. I`ll start sketching ideias this month still  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

hohnoni




Jason™ Voice: y’all like crime?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Not that I'm fast enough to pull arts for a comic or a timed event, but what's this exactly? I've read a few posts and I don't get the gist of it yet.


Bang would be an event where there's an initial group producing written fanwork and is given some time to put up little blurbs or previews. Then a later group can go over the previews and rank their personal choices for which ones they want to claim, ultimately you end up assigned to one claim and produce usually fanart or other media work based off the written one. Mostly kind of like a giant fanwork trade and eventually everything made between author/artist pairs will get collected onto the event page to be viewed in a single place.

Super confusing the first time I tried but I joined a reverse bang event before (artist group draws first and writer group will get a claim and then write for it) and found it quite fun.

----------


## Zaresh

> Bang would be an event where there's an initial group producing written fanwork and is given some time to put up little blurbs or previews. Then a later group can go over the previews and rank their personal choices for which ones they want to claim, ultimately you end up assigned to one claim and produce usually fanart or other media work based off the written one. Mostly kind of like a giant fanwork trade and eventually everything made between author/artist pairs will get collected onto the event page to be viewed in a single place.
> 
> Super confusing the first time I tried but I joined a reverse bang event before (artist group draws first and writer group will get a claim and then write for it) and found it quite fun.


Thank you! Alright, I get what's that about now, and definitely not going to try it XD. I'm barely functional now (too busy with too much IRL to be diligent enough here), but I'll see what I decide next time; it sounds interesting.

----------


## G-Potion

So, something of interest from reddit.

*spoilers:*

+Jason Todd will cameo but we will not be seeing Red Hood just yet
+They are looking into a Red Hood show for the DC Universe but are waiting on the release of Titans

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Zaresh

> So, something of interest from reddit.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> 
> +Jason Todd will cameo but we will not be seeing Red Hood just yet
> +They are looking into a Red Hood show for the DC Universe but are waiting on the release of Titans
> 
> *end of spoilers*


Good.
Very good news.

----------


## Rise

> So, something of interest from reddit.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> 
> +Jason Todd will cameo but we will not be seeing Red Hood just yet
> +They are looking into a Red Hood show for the DC Universe but are waiting on the release of Titans
> 
> *end of spoilers*


This is a very exciting news and I really hope it's true.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Semi-related, Lobdell is writing one of the newest Looney Tunes/DCU one shots on July, the Joker/Daffy Duck one.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> So, something of interest from reddit.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> 
> +Jason Todd will cameo but we will not be seeing Red Hood just yet
> +They are looking into a Red Hood show for the DC Universe but are waiting on the release of Titans
> 
> *end of spoilers*


A show for Jason Todd sounds cool but with CW's track record it makes me apprehensive.

----------


## Zaresh

> A show for Jason Todd sounds cool but with CW's track record it makes me apprehensive.


It's not for the CW. As far as I understand, it's for the DC Universe streaming. DC own service, basically. If you give the leaker any credibility, they say somewhere in that thread that Titans is more like a Netflix show that a CW show, and Titans, too is for that new service, I think.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's not for the CW. As far as I understand, it's for the DC Universe streaming. DC own service, basically. If you give the leaker any credibility, they say somewhere in that thread that Titans is more like a Netflix show that a CW show, and Titans, too is for that new service, I think.


Hmm if you say so I hope it'll be better than the stuff CW has been putting out these days.

----------


## thebluefeline

> So, something of interest from reddit.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> 
> +Jason Todd will cameo but we will not be seeing Red Hood just yet
> +They are looking into a Red Hood show for the DC Universe but are waiting on the release of Titans
> 
> *end of spoilers*


Ooo I hope it's an animated series. I like those a lot more than live action ones.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hmm if you say so I hope it'll be better than the stuff CW has been putting out these days.


I don't know if it will be better, but apparently, it will give a different feeling and it will be aiming to different tastes that those CW shows (that, as far as I know, are teen dramas mostly).

So I've read there, by what that user said. It's a bit of a leap of faith right now.

As a fan of animation as a medium, I'm in for an animated show of Jason too, *@thebluefeline*. So if they do that, I'm totally fine with it (and hope that Netflix here gains the license. This month we finally got the first two seasons of Young Justice and that gives me hope).

----------


## Rise

The leaker also said that the DC Universe shows will have a higher budget than CW shows since they are in DC own stream service.

If the leaker is indeed legit, then there's a hope for these shows to actually look good since he praised some of the action scenes in Titans.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't know if it will be better, but apparently, it will give a different feeling and it will be aiming to different tastes that those CW shows (that, as far as I know, are teen dramas mostly).
> 
> So I've read there, by what that user said. It's a bit of a leap of faith right now.
> 
> As a fan of animation as a medium, I'm in for an animated show of Jason too, *@thebluefeline*. So if they do that, I'm totally fine with it (and hope that Netflix here gains the license. This month we finally got the first two seasons of Young Justice and that gives me hope).


They'd better the CW company has gone downhill and I also would not say no to an animated show fro Jason at least it spares DC the nightmare of having to find an actor who can look like him and act not when he can be drawn.

----------


## Aioros22

I can get behind some feeling it`s stale but downhill? Arrow has gotten better. Supergirl has gotten better. Flash never really derailed as the others did for a season or two.

----------


## G-Potion

http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/174044764777

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Now a version with Jason on this costume needs to be a thing.

----------


## adrikito

> http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/174044764777


Agent 37. Tim was disguised as a girl?

Jason moustache strikes again. I liked this moustache.

----------


## Mataza

> Tim was disguised as a girl?


As a nurse.

----------


## adrikito

> As a nurse.


You are right, as a nurse. Now I see that.

----------


## Mataza

Actually i think im wrong, looks like an intern.

----------


## Aahz

Jason could already disguise as a Doctor as Robin.

Batman #415 9.jpg

Batman #415 10.jpg

Batman #415 11.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/TheBurnham

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/datrinti

----------


## G-Potion

One of the Injustice 2 Mobile artworks.

----------


## 9th.

I've always been a fan of Jason but I'm absolutely disgusted by this version of him I'm reading in Batman & Robin. The suit is kinda cool I guess but everything else is....

----------


## TheCape

> I've always been a fan of Jason but I'm absolutely disgusted by this version of him I'm reading in Batman & Robin. The suit is kinda cool I guess but everything else is....


You mean Morrison's run, you're not the only one, althought to be fair he wasn't the one that started it.

----------


## Zaresh

> I've always been a fan of Jason but I'm absolutely disgusted by this version of him I'm reading in Batman & Robin. The suit is kinda cool I guess but everything else is....


It's fun as long as you take him as... someone else, an entirely new character who is not the former or following Jason Todd we read about.

Awesome finds, @G-Pots, especially the first two. They're rad.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Ironically, Morrison seems to understand Jason's character but he was more interested on follow his own narrative with the whole red and black motifs than in exploring Jason.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Ironically, Morrison seems to understand Jason's character but he was more interested on follow his own narrative with the whole red and black motifs than in exploring Jason.


Morrison just had a hard on for making Jason look like a total tool. Too bad.

----------


## 9th.

> It's fun as long as you take him as... someone else, an entirely new character who is not the former or following Jason Todd we read about.
> 
> Awesome finds, @G-Pots, especially the first two. They're rad.


I think thats what im gonna do

----------


## RedBird

christopher jones
Apologizing in advance to the #JasonTodd fans for this one. #Robin #Joker #TooSoon

----------


## G-Potion

@RedBird: No.  :Frown:

----------


## kaimaciel

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yMjcvMjU0L29yaWdpbmFsL1JIQVRPMjVfQ292ZXJfQ29s.jpg
RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #25
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by DEXTER SOY
cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
Batman versus Red Hood for the right to fight in Gotham—grab your ringside seat for the battle 25 years in the making! Jason Todd broke a promise to his mentor, and must now confront an angry and betrayed Batman. That means a good time for readers, but probably not so much for Jason: it’s likely going to take more than the Outlaws’ help in order for the Red Hood to avoid wearing an orange jumper in prison.

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #2
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by CLAYTON HENRY
cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
The boys are back—Red Hood and Arsenal, together again! Sort of. While Jason Todd is recovering after a brutal beatdown from the man who taught him everything he knows about brutal beatdowns, Roy Harper divides his time between being a nursemaid to his bestie and tracking down the source of tainted drugs that have killed thousands. It isn’t long before the two find themselves in Beijing battling the Sisters of Suzie Su! All this and…the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason and roy together again and batman and jason have a fallout!

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #25
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by DEXTER SOY
cover by TREVOR HAIRSINE
variant cover by YASMINE PUTRI
Batman versus Red Hood for the right to fight in Gotham—grab your ringside seat for the battle 25 years in the making! Jason Todd broke a promise to his mentor, and must now confront an angry and betrayed Batman. That means a good time for readers, but probably not so much for Jason: it’s likely going to take more than the Outlaws’ help in order for the Red Hood to avoid wearing an orange jumper in prison.
ON SALE 08.08.18
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.






RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #2
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by CLAYTON HENRY
cover by KENNETH ROCAFORT
The boys are back—Red Hood and Arsenal, together again! Sort of. While Jason Todd is recovering after a brutal beatdown from the man who taught him everything he knows about brutal beatdowns, Roy Harper divides his time between being a nursemaid to his bestie and tracking down the source of tainted drugs that have killed thousands. It isn’t long before the two find themselves in Beijing battling the Sisters of Suzie Su! All this and…the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!
ON SALE 08.29.18
$4.99 US | 48 PAGES
FC | RATED T+

----------


## adrikito

*
the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!* bad, bad, this sounds bad. 


Artemis is in August in Wonderwoman comic too.

----------


## Jackalope89

> *
> the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!* bad, bad, this sounds bad. 
> 
> 
> Artemis is in August in Wonderwoman comic too.


Oh man. Please, no! Arty! B!

----------


## G-Potion

Now we're talking. So equally pumped for both issues. Pleased that Roy gets reunited with Jason in a very real way. Was afraid #24 will have too much going on to leave room for the old Outlaws but now a whole annual? Yessss!

----------


## Jman27

Based on the annual Jason probably loses to Batman shame but I hope he wins the argument at the very least. I hope the series isn’t ending anytime soon

----------


## Rise

> *
> the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!* bad, bad, this sounds bad. 
> 
> 
> Artemis is in August in Wonderwoman comic too.


I was actually worried about it ending, but the solicit actually reassured that my worries might be unfounded. The outlaws very likey were just separated for a while after the fight in gotham and will meet again soon.

----------


## thebluefeline

I wonder who he killed? I'm kinda thinking it could be a red herring but I hope not. Looking forward to fallout of the fight ;3 So many issues Lobdell could address between Jason and Bruce during it.

----------


## G-Potion

Maybe he will go through with it after all. The narative has been hinting towards this point for a while.

----------


## EMarie

> I wonder who he killed? I'm kinda thinking it could be a red herring but I hope not. Looking forward to fallout of the fight ;3 So many issues Lobdell could address between Jason and Bruce during it.


I was wondering this too. The only person we know he's gunning for is Penguin. There could be someone else we don't know about or maybe someone else got between them ?

----------


## Zaresh

I felt an emotional rollercoaster reading these solicits.

*This is me reading the solicits.* (I'm so sleepy and tired now. I slept a few hours and had to work a huge canvas at the workshop, so I'm a bit fake-drunk. Also, purple is cool, ok)




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #25
> ...
> Batman versus Red Hood for the right to fight in Gotham—grab your ringside seat for the battle 25 years in the making! Jason Todd broke a promise to his mentor,


Oh, shit! (Now he lost it, he knows he can kill... Cue Darker than Black OP1 theme, because electric batman. Ok, I know, it was a bad joke. But Darker than Black is cool, just so you know)




> and must now confront an angry and betrayed Batman.


I'm going to hate this Bruce, right? He's going to be a hypocrite, self righteous, all knowing jerk, is he? I don't... Oh shit. Please be a trick for the summary, a red herring. Please, be just Bruce and co. helping Jason to come back to his senses or something with a harder version of Brightslapìng him.




> That means a good time for readers, but probably not so much for Jason:


I'm so fearful right now. Please, send help, in the form of liquor bonbons if possible.




> it’s likely going to take more than the Outlaws’ help in order for the Red Hood to avoid wearing an orange jumper in prison.


So either someone from the family or someone new for the Outlaws. But if I have to bet, I'll say the first one based on the absence of new names in the summary for the second annual.




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #2
> ...
> The boys are back—Red Hood and Arsenal, together again! Sort of. While Jason Todd is recovering after a brutal beatdown from the man who taught him everything he knows about brutal beatdowns,


Damn, Bruce... So, alright, family drama is it. I guess it's fine for a while, even if I'm going to probably hate some characters. I can live with it.




> Roy Harper divides his time between being a nursemaid to his bestie


Some people is going to complain about this, but after what has happened in Titans, it really makes sense for Roy to stick to Jason for a little bit..




> and tracking down the source of tainted drugs that have killed thousands. It isn’t long before the two find themselves in Beijing battling the Sisters of Suzie Su!


Isn't this Suzie that rotund girl Jason killed back in vol. 1? Nice to have another nood to that first book.




> All this and…the inexplicable fate of Artemis and Bizarro!


I bet this is going to be comedic to some extent, and also plot related to the next story arc. I think we will have both of them AFK for a while, but they will come back soon, you will see!

*Basically,* I'm a mess right know, but as excited as frightened at the prospect of this summer's RHatO.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm going to hate this Bruce, right? He's going to be a hypocrite, self righteous, all knowing jerk, is he? I don't... Oh shit. Please be a trick for the summary, a red herring. Please, be just Bruce and co. helping Jason to come back to his senses or something with a harder version of Brightslapìng him.


Yes, yes he will. I can feel it.
Except that Lobdell is usually the one who writes the understanding Bruce. So I don't know.

----------


## EMarie

> I felt an emotional rollercoaster reading these solicits.
> 
> I'm going to hate this Bruce, right? He's going to be a hypocrite, self righteous, all knowing jerk, is he? I don't... Oh shit. Please be a trick for the summary, a red herring. Please, be just Bruce and co. helping Jason to come back to his senses or something with a harder version of Brightslapìng him.
> 
> So either someone from the family or someone new for the Outlaws. But if I have to bet, I'll say the first one based on the absence of new names in the summary for the second annual.
> 
> Damn, Bruce... So, alright, family drama is it. I guess it's fine for a while, even if I'm going to probably hate some characters. I can live with it.
> 
> Some people is going to complain about this, but after what has happened in Titans, it really makes sense for Roy to stick to Jason for a little bit..
> ...


It depends how Lobdell writes Bruce. If he thinks Jason is having an emotional breakdown and is just trying to help he might not be a jerk. The prison jumper doesn't sound like it though. Maybe this will link back to Kate sending Jason to the SS for no reason and no one making a big deal out of it?

Actually I'm hoping Dick provides the voice of reason tying it back to the other Annual. 

If Bruce hurts Jason bad enough that he needs help recovering I hope more people hold him accountable. Then again slicing Jason's throat to save his murderer never made a bit impact in other stories.

Roy shouldn't have to be chained to one series. I don't know if he's in the new Titans series, Green Arrow or anything else but this meeting has been a long time coming.

Suzie briefly came back in RH/A too.

I have no idea what's up with them. Jason's beaten bloody and their not around? Very weird.

The same for me. I can't wait to read this arc. Maybe Jason will bring up his dad's letters to Bruce?

----------


## Zaresh

> It depends how Lobdell writes Bruce. If he thinks Jason is having an emotional breakdown and is just trying to help he might not be a jerk. The prison jumper doesn't sound like it though. Maybe this will link back to Kate sending Jason to the SS for no reason and no one making a big deal out of it?
> 
> Actually I'm hoping Dick provides the voice of reason tying it back to the other. 
> 
> If Bruce hurts Jason bad enough that he needs help recovering I hope more people hold him accountable. Then again slicing Jason's throat to save his murderer never made a bit impact in other stories.
> 
> *Roy shouldn't have to be chained to one series. I don't know if he's in the new Titans series, Green Arrow or anything else but this meeting has been a long time coming.
> 
> Suzie briefly came back in RH/A too.
> ...


As far as I've read, Roy isn't in the new Titans team, but he's a recurring character in GA. I may be wrong, though. I don't know where I read it, or how long ago.

Didn't remember the stuff in RH/A. Thanks  :Big Grin: .

Jason, Bruce and the letters... Huh, interesting. Didn't Bruce hide Willis being dead from Jason back in the 80's? I don't know if I read this in an actual comic, in some wikipage or it's the headcanon of some fanfic writer, but the thing is that I kind of recall something like that being the case.

----------


## G-Potion

I can only laugh at people who fired at Lobdell for hinting at Roy falling off the wagon and not doing so well with the Titans. Fun times. This meeting is so, so long overdue. Was hoping for Dexter Soy but the artist we've got is pretty good too.

----------


## gwhh

In a recent comic. There was a scence where the computer told Jason told he killed 81 people. Anyone know what issue that was in?

----------


## EMarie

> As far as I've read, Roy isn't in the new Titans team, but he's a recurring character in GA. I may be wrong, though. I don't know where I read it, or how long ago.
> 
> Didn't remember the stuff in RH/A. Thanks .
> 
> Jason, Bruce and the letters... Huh, interesting. Didn't Bruce hide Willis being dead from Jason back in the 80's? I don't know if I read this in an actual comic, in some wikipage or it's the headcanon of some fanfic writer, but the thing is that I kind of recall something like that being the case.


Thanks I wasn't follow GA. 

You're welcome  :Smile: 

Yep. Jason's first mission was going after Two-Face. He was doing fine and decided to research Harvey only to learn Bruce had kept the fact his dad was supposed to be dead and Harvey was suspected of killing him. Once Bruce realized that was why Jason was so mad he backed off his lecturing.

----------


## EMarie

> I can only laugh at people who fired at Lobdell for hinting at Roy falling off the wagon and not doing so well with the Titans. Fun times. This meeting is so, so long overdue. Was hoping for Dexter Soy but the artist we've got is pretty good too.


I remember that and it made no sense to get mad. Roy had already fallen off the wagon at that point.




> In a recent comic. There was a scence where the computer told Jason told he killed 81 people. Anyone know what issue that was in?


It wasn't that recent it was in the first RHATO run when Tynion took over and gave Jason memory loss. Most of it is retconned at this point. I don't recall the number. Maybe the first Annual. If you're referring to something similar I'm not familiar with it.

----------


## G-Potion

You're right it's the first Annual.

----------


## G-Potion

If we go further back to Pre-N52 though, his kill count was even higher.

----------


## EMarie

It's confirmed counts that governments could link to him.

----------


## G-Potion

In Batman & Robin, do you think the 82 people he killed while in prison were all confirmed?

----------


## G-Potion

Also it's strange that the page above would indicate only government confirmed kills because one panel looks like he's killing an All-Caste monk.

----------


## EMarie

> In Batman & Robin, do you think the 82 people he killed while in prison were all confirmed?


What Winick wrote? I think that and most of Morrison's version aren't in canon after Flashpoint. I believe Tynion said it was just a number he pulled out because he didn't want to sound too ridiculous.




> Also it's strange that the page above would indicate only government confirmed kills because one panel looks like he's killing an All-Caste monk.


I remember Tynions' run didn't have a good use of canon in general. I recall there being a panel with Joker that didn't work because it quoted a past story while Jason was dressed in boxers, which never happened.

----------


## magpieM

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #25
> 
> Batman versus Red Hood for the right to fight in Gotham—grab your ringside seat for the battle 25 years in the making! ...


25 years? I think Jason is still less than 25 years old. Why 25 years? Something deeply rooted years before he was born? Any beef btw Willis and Wayne?




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS ANNUAL #2
> 
> ...Roy Harper divides his time between being a nursemaid to his bestie...


Wow Roy being a nursemaid to Jason  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

Or it's his way to say 25 issues in the making. Everything has been leading to this moment. :P

----------


## EMarie

> Any beef btw Willis and Wayne?


Not that we know of. At the moment it just seems like Bruce wants to keep Jason in line and Jason is upset about whatever was in the letters. The previous solicits make it sound like Jason's after Penguin because of some link between him and Willis.

----------


## magpieM

I think he will probably kill Penguin. I remember the cover page of issue #24 is like a broken monocle on the ground, reflecting the outlaws.

----------


## G-Potion

I have doubts that DC would let him kill a big name. But really so far no other options to think of.

----------


## EMarie

Maybe the fact that Jason is gunning for Penguin will make Bruce think Jason is betraying their promise.

----------


## magpieM

I think Penguin already has tons of reasons to organize something to kill Jason once and for all. He must be really pissed off because Jason had messed up his business multiple times so far. I have a feeling that it maybe a coincidence that when Jason goes to shovel his father's grave, there is a 'party waiting for him'. So it's like Penguin and his men pick exactly the wrong time to follow him to the wrong place.

It's hard to say if there is a link between Penguin and Willis or not. Because if the prisoner in #23 is implying Willis' fate, then he was treated with the experiment when he was already behind the bars. If that's the case then it doesn't look like something that Penguin would take the trouble to do.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Penguin is not dying.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Penguin is not dying.


So maybe it's Solitaire who manipulated the Outlaws into forming again is the dead man.

----------


## EMarie

Agreed, he's not dying.



> It's hard to say if there is a link between Penguin and Willis or not. Because if the prisoner in #23 is implying Willis' fate, then he was treated with the experiment when he was already behind the bars. If that's the case then it doesn't look like something that Penguin would take the trouble to do.


Not unless Penguin had something to do with it. He could have been the investor of the experiments. He could have the connection in the Gotham prison that got experiments signed up and transferred out. Willis might have suspected Penguin would off him and put that in the letters.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Agreed, he's not dying.
> 
> 
> Not unless Penguin had something to do with it. He could have been the investor of the experiments. He could have the connection in the Gotham prison that got experiments signed up and transferred out. Willis might have suspected Penguin would off him and put that in the letters.


But Jason should be targeting Luthor not Penguin he did those experiments to the man who maybe his father.

----------


## EMarie

IF it's Willis that was killed by Artemis there would be little to no evidence. Lex would make sure all of it was destroyed and that was partly why Artemis killed everyone. All we know is that Jason is reacting to what's in the letters. What Willis knew when he was in a Gotham prison. Jason could make some connections but unless Lex got sloppy or Artemis confesses there might not being anything to link his involvement.

Edit: Lex didn't do the experiments. He got Artemis to kill people who were in anyway involved in stealing his tech for profit. Likely what was used to experiment on people.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> IF it's Willis that was killed by Artemis there would be little to no evidence. Lex would make sure all of it was destroyed and that was partly why Artemis killed everyone. All we know is that Jason is reacting to what's in the letters. What Willis knew when he was in a Gotham prison. Jason could make some connections but unless Lex got sloppy or Artemis confesses there might not being anything to link his involvement.
> 
> Edit: Lex didn't do the experiments. He got Artemis to kill people who were in anyway involved in stealing his tech for profit. Likely what was used to experiment on people.


Hmm okay there's still a lot to do before we can be certain Penguin is the target at all really like what is in the letters?

----------


## Rise

> I'm going to hate this Bruce, right? He's going to be a hypocrite, self righteous, all knowing jerk, is he? I don't... Oh shit. Please be a trick for the summary, a red herring. Please, be just Bruce and co. helping Jason to come back to his senses or something with a harder version of Brightslapìng him.


Lobdell doesn't have a history of making Bruce a hypocrite and self righteous. He actually one of few current writers who write him pretty well and I have a feelings that the fight is going to be more emotional than anything else. 

I'm more curious about what Jason found out in his father letters to make him lose it like that. I really can't for June's issue.

----------


## Aahz

> Penguin is not dying.


It seems at least very unlikely, Penguin is one of the oldest Batman villains, and relatively "harmless" in comparison to the rest.

----------


## Zaresh

> Lobdell doesn't have a history of making Bruce a hypocrite and self righteous. He actually one of few current writers who write him pretty well and I have a feelings that the fight is going to be more emotional than anything else. 
> 
> I'm more curious about what Jason found out in his father letters to make him lose it like that. I really can't for June's issue.


I really really hope you're right about he more-emotional-than-material fight. Or Bruce being an actual voice of reason and guide, even if it's by slapping Jason in, some way.

I think I already mentioned how much I dislike current take on Bruce, right?

----------


## Aioros22

I`m just excited to grab these two issues, been a long time coming!

It`s doing its work, granted, but good solicits are there to make you be excited to buy it. We`ll see. I have no issue with Batman coming off bad without a valid reason when Loedbell is one of the few who doesn`t reeinforce that trope. He`s been solid when it comes to have these two clashing.

----------


## Aioros22

http://hohnoni.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

https://hongbiubiu.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

> I think he will probably kill Penguin. I remember the cover page of issue #24 is like a broken monocle on the ground, reflecting the outlaws.


Not for real it won`t but it will likely look like he will or will be pushed to look like he will. 

Right now, one thing`s almost certain, he`s not going to be in any right state of mind if that cover of him digging his father`s grave with penguins surrounding him is of any indication. Two, Solitaire has been shadowing them for awhile and may take advantage and push to a confrontation (two, if you count Batman`s) to take most players out of Gotham`s turf if that`s his wish, at least until they recover.

----------


## okiedokiewo

I'm a bit wary of the solicits, but at least it's Lobdell writing them. I'd be more worried if it were someone else. Lobdell is pretty fair to characters.

But I'm just rolling my eyes a bit at Jason needing to "recover" from a "brutal beatdown" in the annual...how nice of Bruce to injure his son more than he does actual criminals.

----------


## G-Potion

For all we know, Jason could give just as good as he gets.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> https://hongbiubiu.tumblr.com/


I'm Star Wars illiterate but these are pretty cool!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

In a bizarre turn of events, it seems the official artist of Dragon Ball Super Manga was caught tracing Dexter's work.

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status/998956089310830592

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not for real it won`t but it will likely look like he will or will be pushed to look like he will.


That's a distinct possibility. All it would take for Batman to think Jason has broken his promise is for it to 'appear' that Jay has killed someone in Gotham. Maybe that's what Solitaire is planning.  




> Right now, one thing`s almost certain, he`s not going to be in any right state of mind if that cover of him digging his father`s grave with penguins surrounding him is of any indication. Two, Solitaire has been shadowing them for awhile and may take advantage and push to a confrontation (two, if you count Batman`s) to take most players out of Gotham`s turf if that`s his wish, at least until they recover.


Jason does feel things very deeply I think so emotional upheavals do have a way of overriding all other things in his life, even his own common sense at times. I think finding out what exactly happened to his father beyond the "he died in prison" angle qualifies as something that might send him over the edge emotionally particularly if someone like Solitaire does something to add to that upheaval by throwing in a confrontation with Bruce over methods on top of it.

Guess Lobdell wasn't kidding around when he said things were gonna get darker for Jason. 




> For all we know, Jason could give just as much as he gets.


I'm counting on Jason doing just that.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's a distinct possibility. All it would take for Batman to think Jason has broken his promise is for it to 'appear' that Jay has killed someone in Gotham. Maybe that's what Solitaire is planning.  
> 
> 
> 
> Jason does feel things very deeply I think so emotional upheavals do have a way of overriding all other things in his life, even his own common sense at times. I think finding out what exactly happened to his father beyond the "he died in prison" angle qualifies as something that might send him over the edge emotionally particularly if someone like Solitaire does something to add to that upheaval by throwing in a confrontation with Bruce over methods on top of it.
> 
> Guess Lobdell wasn't kidding around when he said things were gonna get darker for Jason. 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think Solitaire will be the one Jason kills? But honestly for him to die seems like a waste of an interesting character. I want to know more about him.

----------


## G-Potion

> That's a distinct possibility. All it would take for Batman to think Jason has broken his promise is for it to 'appear' that Jay has killed someone in Gotham. Maybe that's what Solitaire is planning.


It's a possibility. But then would it have the impact that we're all looking forward to as this 'misunderstanding' can resemble what already happened at the start of Rebirth. Maybe this time the difference is that the decision to look like he killed someone is not in Jason's hands. 

That said, with all the musing about killing/not killing in previous issues, and the fact that this will be an oversized issue, I feel this is a good time to officially bring back a darker Red Hood like DC demanded.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Do you think Solitaire will be the one Jason kills? But honestly for him to die seems like a waste of an interesting character. I want to know more about him.


I hope not because, like you, I want to know more about him and find him to be an interesting character. That being said I could see Solitaire maybe making it appear that Jason has killed him when he didn't. He does, after all, have the power to be unseen. That might be a way of keeping the character around as a villain for Jason. 




> It's a possibility. But then would it have the impact that we're all looking forward to as this 'misunderstanding' can resemble what already happened at the start of Rebirth. With all the musing about killing/not killing in previous issues, and the fact that this will be an oversized issue, I feel this is a good time to officially bring back a darker Red Hood like DC demanded.


Depends on how Lobdell handles it. If Jason is taking the fall for someone else, and I could see him doing just that for his teammates, then that wouldn't exactly be the same as the misunderstanding that happened at the start of this run would it? There could be a lot of interesting plot developments that could come from something like that.

----------


## G-Potion

Yep actually agree with you there. Edited my comment because I first wrote it without thinking haha.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I hope not because, like you, I want to know more about him and find him to be an interesting character. That being said I could see Solitaire maybe making it appear that Jason has killed him when he didn't. He does, after all, have the power to be unseen. That might be a way of keeping the character around as a villain for Jason.


If that happens then it would be a great way end Bruce and Jason's conflict and help them remain on amicable terms unlike what happened in Under the Hood. I'm guessing this conflict will be how Artemis will leave the Outlaws to join Wonder Woman on an adventure if only for a filler issue and then she comes back to them. I also want to know why he assembled Bizarro, Artemis, and Jason together for because if he did it then had a something to do with Black Mask.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yep actually agree with you there. Edited my comment because I first wrote it without thinking haha.


I agree with you too about this being a lead in to darker Red Hood stories and so long as Lobdell is the one writing them I'm not overly concerned about it. IF however they get someone else on the book I'd start to be worried because "darker" stories for some writers amounts to constant blood and gore and I want a bit more depth than that from this angle.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If that happens then it would be a great way end Bruce and Jason's conflict and help them remain on amicable terms unlike what happened in Under the Hood. I'm guessing this conflict will be how Artemis will leave the Outlaws to join Wonder Woman on an adventure if only for a filler issue and then she comes back to them. I also want to know why he assembled Bizarro, Artemis, and Jason together for because if he did it then had a something to do with Black Mask.


Yeah, I want to know why he put these three together as well and I definitely want to see Artemis come back to the Outlaws after her adventure with WW, though I am glad to see her going off with Diana for a bit to be honest.

----------


## Alycat

I'm actually worried about those solicits. They don't tell the whole story, but I've been enjoying the peace between Bruce and Jason. I've also liked the overall maturity Jason has shown in the series and I hope it's not regressing.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm actually worried about those solicits. They don't tell the whole story, but I've been enjoying the peace between Bruce and Jason. I've also liked the overall maturity Jason has shown in the series and I hope it's not regressing.


A source says it will be more emotional than hate/anger. Also, as much as I've enjoyed the peace between Bruce and Jason, we all know the promise is a compromise, and sooner or later, Jason's own moral code will win out and it doesn't have to do with maturity. This is time for the true test between them, and I trust Lobdell would make it fair for both sides.

----------


## Aahz

I hope we get at least an epic fight out of this and not a "beat down".

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yeah, I want to know why he put these three together as well and I definitely want to see Artemis come back to the Outlaws after her adventure with WW, though I am glad to see her going off with Diana for a bit to be honest.


I just hope Solitaire doesn't go the way Harvest did I heard Harvest's plans were a little too convoluted because of it seems no one really liked Harvest so Lobdell killed him off I really wonder how Harvest ended crucified because explosions do not equal crucifixion.

----------


## G-Potion

> I hope we get at least an epic fight out of this and not a "beat down".


We might. IIRC, according to Lobdell, Jason didn't go all out against Bruce in his UTH days. He can hold his own.

----------


## EMarie

> We might. IIRC, according to Lobdell, Jason didn't go all out against Bruce in his UTH days. He can hold his own.


It would also defeat Jason's plans if he went all out against Bruce since he wanted Bruce in shape enough to make it to the "Joker or me" test.

Here's another option for why Bruce is after Jason besides his behavior: something smart Bizarro did backfires and gets someone killed.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It would also defeat Jason's plans if he went all out against Bruce since he wanted Bruce in shape enough to make it to the "Joker or me" test.
> 
> Here's another option for why Bruce is after Jason besides his behavior: something smart Bizarro did backfires and gets someone killed.


I hope it's just Jason. I want him to stay true to his ideal. That what makes him different and interesting.

----------


## Zaresh

It could be a lot of things, really. But, to be honest, this is good. Yesterday, I was thinking about how much we were discussing what can or cannot happen in the upcoming issues and I think I didn't have so much fun discussing guessings, hypothesis and theories for a comic book from either DC or Marvel in years. This is TV Show levels of fun I'm having.

I think that speaks a lot of good about current RHATO, if readers are this invested into discussing the details and possibilities of this story.

----------


## EMarie

Same. I was just thinking of the possibilities of the man Artemis killed. It could have been Solitaire before his powers emerged. He could be targeting Luthor. But why get Jason involved? 

And if the man was Willis can you imagine Jason and Artemis realizing that?

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## JasonTodd428

> It could be a lot of things, really. But, to be honest, this is good. Yesterday, I was thinking about how much we were discussing what can or cannot happen in the upcoming issues and I think I didn't have so much fun discussing guessings, hypothesis and theories for a comic book from either DC or Marvel in years. This is TV Show levels of fun I'm having.
> 
> I think that speaks a lot of good about current RHATO, if readers are this invested into discussing the details and possibilities of this story.


I agree. Personally, I think RHATO is the best book put out by DC currently and even when I don't post in the discussion I still love reading everyone else's thoughts and insights. I'm having a lot of fun with even just that much.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Same. I was just thinking of the possibilities of the man Artemis killed. It could have been Solitaire before his powers emerged. He could be targeting Luthor. But why get Jason involved? 
> 
> And if the man was Willis can you imagine Jason and Artemis realizing that?


If Solitaire is Willis sh#t is really gonna hit the fan.

----------


## EMarie

> If Solitaire is Willis sh#t is really gonna hit the fan.


I didn't mean it that way but yeah that would be intense.

----------


## Eto

> A source says it will be more emotional than hate/anger. Also, as much as I've enjoyed the peace between Bruce and Jason, we all know the promise is a compromise, and sooner or later, Jason's own moral code will win out and it doesn't have to do with maturity. This is time for the true test between them, and I trust Lobdell would make it fair for both sides.



Pretty much described what I had in mind lol. :Smile:

----------


## Eto

Im looking forward to issue #25 albeit Im hesitant it will be a perilous event for Jason or should I say for Bruce?
Heh.

----------


## G-Potion

If it does come to that I hope they beat the crap out of each other then have a tearful reconciliation moment. Jason while bedridden can be on the phone talking to Bruce who's in the same state.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> It could be a lot of things, really. But, to be honest, this is good. Yesterday, I was thinking about how much we were discussing what can or cannot happen in the upcoming issues and I think I didn't have so much fun discussing guessings, hypothesis and theories for a comic book from either DC or Marvel in years. This is TV Show levels of fun I'm having.
> 
> I think that speaks a lot of good about current RHATO, if readers are this invested into discussing the details and possibilities of this story.


Yep yep this is a huge thing but I'm not worry at all. We're in good hands. Almost every issue of RHATO has had good discussion here and the near future is gonna be filled with so much more. My excitement is tripled because of it.

----------


## magpieM

> Same. I was just thinking of the possibilities of the man Artemis killed. It could have been Solitaire before his powers emerged. He could be targeting Luthor. But why get Jason involved? 
> 
> And if the man was Willis can you imagine Jason and Artemis realizing that?


I hope that guy killed by Artemis was not Willis but another analogy to reveal a certain period of time in Willis' life, like 'Ben and Emma'. 

And honestly I really want to know if Willis is still alive. If so in what 'form' does he exist? I'm both excited and anxious about where the story is leading to.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. do you think Lobdell will address whats up with the All-Blades anytime soon?

----------


## EMarie

Maybe Solitaire has a connection to Willis which is why he's interested in Jason?

If Willis is alive it would open up a lot of possibilities.

----------


## EMarie

> Btw. do you think Lobdell will address whats up with the All-Blades anytime soon?


Do you mean how they work or something else? If the source on tumblr is correct the All Caste might play into a future storyline.

----------


## AJpyro

> Btw. do you think Lobdell will address whats up with the All-Blades anytime soon?


THere's a good chance the upcoming batman fight might cause them to break. Nothing shatters the soul like a splintering of one of the pillars of your life.

----------


## EMarie

Jason said they only work on magic unless something changed about Batman that I'm not aware of. I haven't read Metal yet.

----------


## G-Potion

I think if by addressing Willis somehow being alive leads to RHATO explaining Jason's resurrection, then the thing with All-Blades might be brought back again. Personally I want to keep the resurrection unexplained, but I do wish to see more of the effect All-Blades have on his soul.

----------


## G-Potion

Jason... steals a police motorcycle?

----------


## G-Potion

Random wish: Jason, in the aftermath of this, renews himself and becomes Red Hood Ninja. Hey, Catwoman gets a new costume after all. :P

----------


## Aahz

> Do you mean how they work or something else?


In the Artemis story line he used them for one hit, and that was all he could do. That felt for me like something like a tease for a future story line, but sofar it and the All-Caste haven't been mentioned since then.
Since he is back to china in the Annual I'm wonderig if the next arc after the Annual will go again in that direction.

----------


## Rise

> Jason... steals a police motorcycle?


It looks like Jason is going to cause a chaos in Gotham.

----------


## Rise

> In the Artemis story line he used them for one hit, and that was all he could do. That felt for me like something like a tease for a future story line, but sofar it and the All-Caste haven't been mentioned since then.
> Since he is back to china in the Annual I'm wonderig if the next arc after the Annual will go again in that direction.


I remember Lobdell saying that he want to address something about Jason's soul in the early interviews. It might have been dropped or he is going to address it in the future.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Jason... steals a police motorcycle?


This looks fantastic. Looking forward to it.

----------


## RedBird

Wow, these last few solicits are both exciting and terrifying. 

I'm excited for the conflict between Bruce and Jason, but kinda terrified since the last time a wedge was put between them, was from that GOD AWFUL B&R issue. 
Though then again, of course, I trust Lobdell with Jason and Bruce way more than I trust Tomasi with....well.....anyone besides Damian.

And then YAY Roy helps pick Jason back up, how exciting, the boys are back in town. However, on the terrifying end, where are the current outlaws? Don't tell me this is the last we'll see of Biz and Arty. D:

----------


## Rise

If they were planning to get rid of Bizarro and Artemis, they would given them farewell arc in the main series like they did with the previous outlaws and not suddenly make them disappear in the annual.

----------


## RedBird

> If they were planning to get rid of Bizarro and Artemis, they would given them farewell arc in the main series like they did with the previous outlaws and not suddenly make them disappear in the annual.


Perhaps. I just worry that since this solicit seems rather, explosive on its ending (conflict with Bats) and that each solicitation we have received for a while has been kinda dire and foreboding, stating that Biz is only getting worse and that the future of the outlaws may be threatened because of what Jason learns. With the timing of everything it feels like this IS the farewell arc, just a far more sad and tragic one at that.

Still, I hope your right, and that this is just a rough patch for the group, cause boy I really don't want to let them go.

----------


## Rise

Rhato might end later, but #25 isn't the end of their partnership when they aren't even on the cover.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if all the books that are supposed to end will have their final issue in August or is it whenever they want?

----------


## Rise

The books that ended have already their stories wrapped up. Hal and his buddies is very likely going to be relaunched with new creative team like some of their books that were cancelled before and have been relaunched now.

----------


## EMarie

> In the Artemis story line he used them for one hit, and that was all he could do. That felt for me like something like a tease for a future story line, but sofar it and the All-Caste haven't been mentioned since then.
> Since he is back to china in the Annual I'm wonderig if the next arc after the Annual will go again in that direction.


As Rise said this was sort of brought up in an interview with Lobdell. Jason's worried that he doesn't have a soul. Since he wasn't able to do much with the All Blades he probably worried that he's losing his soul. According to a source on tumblr if this storyline continues the way it originally was going to the All Caste stuff will come up soon. But this arc was apparently stalled before. It was supposed to deal with Jason's feeling on his resurrection and how it happened.

----------


## Caivu

Jason is in Mother Panic today.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is in Mother Panic today.


Thanks for the reminder!

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Jason is in Mother Panic today.


How was it?

----------


## Aioros22

So far it seems to bring up an Arkham Knight feel with an interesting look and it should be noted that this is Violet in an alternative Gotham setting. Figuratively so. 

But yeah, I want to read next issue to know more. The whole setting has been promising since issue one.

----------


## Caivu

> How was it?


Good. He gets to *spoilers:*
 watch the Joker get beaten to death on his orders. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

Now this I have to see.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Some art from Clayton Henry instagram. He doesn't say they are from RHATO Annual but some of them look that way. There's a Batman fight, there's a guy who's in a sling. Beatdown very possible.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Also this because why not.

https://twitter.com/Ketchup0212

----------


## Aahz

> So far it seems to bring up an Arkham Knight feel with an interesting look and it should be noted that this is Violet in an alternative Gotham setting. Figuratively so. 
> 
> But yeah, I want to read next issue to know more. The whole setting has been promising since issue one.


Sofar it seems to early to really say much about this incarnation of the character. 
But at least here we know soon if it is worth it (unlike as with the other else worlds like Injustice, White Knight, ...).

----------


## Rise

> Some art from Clayton Henry instagram. He doesn't say they are from RHATO Annual but some of them look that way. There's a Batman fight, there's a guy who's in a sling. Beatdown very possible.


Interesting, I was wondering if Kori will be referred and it looks like she actually going to have a cameo.

----------


## RedBird

> So far it seems to bring up an Arkham Knight feel with an interesting look and it should be noted that this is Violet in an alternative Gotham setting. Figuratively so. 
> 
> But yeah, I want to read next issue to know more. The whole setting has been promising since issue one.


Pretty much yeah. Issue one was alright, issue two really surprised me with how much I enjoyed it and issue three is no exception. Even the backups that feature backstory for this world have been really enjoyable, the recent Ivy one was also very AK. Though (maybe I missed it) I'm still confused about how far in the future this is. 10 years? 20 years?

As far as Jason is concerned, we haven't seen much but at the very least it doesn't look or seem like its just a 'wacky n crazy' kind of Jason, which was what I was fearing. As far as first impressions go, I agree with you in that it feels like a more AK-ish Jason. You know, leaning towards 'man with a plan' more so than, 'killer gone crazy'.

EDIT:
Also any Jason with a white streak, even an older, mature one, automatically gets a +1 in my book.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Some art from Clayton Henry instagram. He doesn't say they are from RHATO Annual but some of them look that way. There's a Batman fight, there's a guy who's in a sling. Beatdown very possible.


Interesting, from the context here, I'd almost guess that Kori meets up with Jason while he is (according the the images), on a beach, half naked with a sling on his arm, which is pretty reminiscent to how Kori and Jason first met each other in rhato v1. Wouldn't surprise me if Lobdell was trying to create a visual parallel here.

----------


## G-Potion

> EDIT:
> Also any Jason with a white streak, even an older, mature one, automatically gets a +1 in my book.


That's how he looks in the book? Now I _really_ have to read.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

> Interesting, from the context here, I'd almost guess that Kori meets up with Jason while he is (according the the images), on a beach, half naked with a sling on his arm, which is pretty reminiscent to how Kori and Jason first met each other in rhato v1. Wouldn't surprise me if Lobdell was trying to create a visual parallel here.


Huh, didn't notice the beach. They might be in the outlaws island and it would be nice to see it again.

It actually makes me more curious about how did Jason end up with Kori and Roy and where are Bizarro and Artemis in all of these. It hard to imagine that Bizarro will leave Jason in this state considering how protective of him unless something big happened.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah! Nice catch, I didn`t notice it was a beach when I saw it last night. That`s a nice callback for meeting Kory again because as far as the reboot was concerned _that_ was the meeting post UTRH that made him move past the anger. Even if Artemis and Bizarro aren`t seemingly there, this Annual with the former Outlaws may bring some sort of closure to Jason given recent events. 

Or at the very least a pause t think about how to deal with the aftermath.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Pretty much yeah. Issue one was alright, issue two really surprised me with how much I enjoyed it and issue three is no exception. Even the backups that feature backstory for this world have been really enjoyable, the recent Ivy one was also very AK. Though (maybe I missed it) I'm still confused about how far in the future this is. 10 years? 20 years?
> 
> As far as Jason is concerned, we haven't seen much but at the very least it doesn't look or seem like its just a 'wacky n crazy' kind of Jason, which was what I was fearing. As far as first impressions go, I agree with you in that it feels like a more AK-ish Jason. You know, leaning towards 'man with a plan' more so than, 'killer gone crazy'.
> 
> EDIT:
> Also any Jason with a white streak, even an older, mature one, automatically gets a +1 in my book.


Is this from Mother Panic?

----------


## kiwiliko

> Pretty much yeah. Issue one was alright, issue two really surprised me with how much I enjoyed it and issue three is no exception. Even the backups that feature backstory for this world have been really enjoyable, the recent Ivy one was also very AK. Though (maybe I missed it) I'm still confused about how far in the future this is. 10 years? 20 years?
> 
> As far as Jason is concerned, we haven't seen much but at the very least it doesn't look or seem like its just a 'wacky n crazy' kind of Jason, which was what I was fearing. As far as first impressions go, I agree with you in that it feels like a more AK-ish Jason. You know, leaning towards 'man with a plan' more so than, 'killer gone crazy'.
> 
> EDIT:
> Also any Jason with a white streak, even an older, mature one, automatically gets a +1 in my book.


Heheh I knew the old skunkstripe wasn't going to die anytime soon.

----------


## RedBird

> Is this from Mother Panic?


Yeah, and this is the only panel he features in, in MP issue 3. Though obviously we'll be seeing more of him during this arc.

----------


## Aioros22

The older Joker is also taken from Ledger`s looks and the whole scene plays like a nod to the infamious _Return of the Joker_ scene.

----------


## Aioros22

> Yeah, and this is the only panel he features in, in MP issue 3. Though obviously we'll be seeing more of him during this arc.


Best part of the scene: 

"Oh, it`s *you*. It had to be you, it couldn`t be h.."



 :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

Dustin Nguyen, everyone.

----------


## Aioros22

More Grand Auto sharpness

https://jaydicksummerexchange.tumblr.com/

----------


## Aioros22

http://wonderstrevors.tumblr.com/






Have yet to play VR so I was pleasantly surprised by this scene while looking for artwork.

----------


## 9th.

looks like I gotta read Mother Panic

Edit: Happy 800th

----------


## The Dying Detective

Well happy 800th page everyone of appreciating our favourite fallen hero who rose from the grave to become in the eyes of some DC's Punisher.

----------


## Rise

*DC's anti-hero. He isn't the punisher and I don't want him to be like him.

Anyway, it's hard to believe that we are already reached 800 pages. I remember when I first joined, the thread was still 100 pages.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I agree. Jason is DC anti-hero but he's no Frank Castle and I don't think he needs to be either. 

Anyway happy 800th page to this thread. I was here when this rebooted JT thread was started but when I first joined the forum that thread was pretty long from what I remember anyway.

----------


## adrikito

The 800th page.. EXCELLENT. 

Congratulations Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

Happy 800th!!   :Embarrassment: 

https://twitter.com/gothamtwinks

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I agree. Jason is DC anti-hero but he's no Frank Castle and I don't think he needs to be either. 
> 
> Anyway happy 800th page to this thread. I was here when this rebooted JT thread was started but when I first joined the forum that thread was pretty long from what I remember anyway.


Batman is an anti-hero actually so is Jason and Frank Castle.

----------


## dietrich

Nice one.

Congratulations on 800 pages.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Batman is an anti-hero actually so is Jason and Frank Castle.


What I mean is that he isn't exactly like Frank Castle, which is what people who make the comparison are oftentimes trying to say. They are all three of them in that category but they are also all distinct characters with their own personalities, flaws, etc.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> What I mean is that he isn't exactly like Frank Castle, which is what people who make the comparison are oftentimes trying to say. They are all three of them in that category but they are also all distinct characters with their own personalities, flaws, etc.


Okay that's fair the only reason Frank Castle and Jason get compared is because they use guns and aren't afraid to kill criminals. Fandom Wiki even called Jason's DC's Punisher and even believes that he deserves an R-rated film and I don't think that's a bad idea if the DC Extended Universe stays the course they should make Jason's return from the dead an R-rated film. Under the Red Hood came pretty close to R-rated territory.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Okay that's fair the only reason Frank Castle and Jason get compared is because they use guns and aren't afraid to kill criminals. Fandom Wiki even called Jason's DC's Punisher and even believes that he deserves an R-rated film and I don't think that's a bad idea if the DC Extended Universe stays the course they should make Jason's return from the dead an R-rated film. Under the Red Hood came pretty close to R-rated territory.


Would that be the Batman film with Affleck, or would we be looking at a new actor for Batman?

But since its been established that Joker (and Harley? Why are they even alive in this continuity?) offed Jason, it would make for a good film, and introduce the public at large to Jason Todd; the gun-happy member of the Bat Family.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Would that be the Batman film with Affleck, or would we be looking at a new actor for Batman?
> 
> But since its been established that Joker (and Harley? Why are they even alive in this continuity?) offed Jason, it would make for a good film, and introduce the public at large to Jason Todd; the gun-happy member of the Bat Family.


I heard that Affleck is back in the saddle so we could be looking at one with him not a new actor and he's been in a lot of DC Extended Universe movies it would be stupid to change actors. Yes Joker and Harley are alive and Harley was probably locked in jail before Batman became brutal and given how the Joker was acting in Suicide Squad he probably lost all interest in crime and mayhem when Harley got taken away leading him to fall off the grid and escape Batman's wrath. On the other hand R-rated films are for a niche audience the DC Extended universe needs to grab an all ages audience to win big. but given how well Logan did there's a lot of money to be made from them so yeah why not huh?

----------


## Zaresh

I lost the message I was writing for the last half an hour (which was a love letter to Jason as a character, to be honest). I want to kill myself now.

In '_short_'; Frank and Jason are nothing alike. They both may kill bad guys, but the reasons why they do, the way they do and their psychological conditions when they do are drastically different. They are almost in the opposite sides of the scale of vigilantism.

Frank is an unemotional, asocial, uncaring, psychopathic rude vigilante with a rather strong sense of justice who enjoys violence and murdering a lot and doesn't want to get close to others or seeks recognition and, as for what I've seen when I've read him in some comics (not his books, to be fair), doesn't show remorse. He also has some psychological trauma (reasonably, and easy to spot and define). I'm guessing he wasn't like this at the beginning, tho.

Jason is a very emotional (even if he doesn't show it usually, unless he has a breakdown or looks for some kind of reaction. It's one of the reasons he comes across as impulsive to some, I think), very caring, a bit anti-social and very capable of putting himself on someone else shoes (and get very hurt from doing so,) sometimes rude vigilante, with a strong sense of justice that doesn't enjoy violence or killing especially (violence at least not more than any other bat), has big psychological issues (not only depression and psychosis, maybe some kind of neurosis too? I'm not a psychologist and wikipedia is sooo not a good source. Definitely self-esteem issues, and he's also egocentric from time to time. And has a case of PTSD from a very complex personal history, I guess. Wow, Jason: you're a mess, but I like you, love) that hurts for love and recognition and definitely knows that the things he does aren't right (he has shown remorse to some extent, and I would say it's the reason why he's not all that honest with himself).

Frank sees himself as justice itself, sees the system as insufficient, in his acts seeks to achieve retribution alone (a disproportionate one), and sees his vigilantism as a work he has grown to like.
Jason sees himself as the one who spots injustice that will not be righted by anyone else and will bring more suffering and pain to others because the system is corrupt, in his behaviour sees a sense of need more than a retribution (which is there as a reason, but not the main force behind) and sees his vigilantism as a necessity because no one else will do it. 

If I were to place Jason as someone else homologue in Marvel, maybe a mix of Moon Knight (love the lunatic idiot) with the irreverent old-time Hawkeye (another of my faves) or maybe a soft bit of current Deadpool.

And here I am, again, after another half an hour. I hope this time I don't lose my post in my inability to press the right keys. A pitty this one isn't as poetic as my former and forever lost post.

*Congrats on the 800th page, guys!* (and Jason, too)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I lost the message I was writing for the last half an hour (which was a love letter to Jason as a character, to be honest). I want to kill myself now.
> 
> In '_short_'; Frank and Jason are nothing alike. They both may kill bad guys, but the reasons why they do, the way they do and their psychological conditions when they do are drastically different. They are almost in the opposite sides of the scale of vigilantism.
> 
> Frank is an unemotional, asocial, uncaring, psychopathic rude vigilante with a rather strong sense of justice who enjoys violence and murdering a lot and doesn't want to get close to others or seeks recognition and, as for what I've seen when I've read him in some comics (not his books, to be fair), doesn't show remorse. He also has some psychological trauma (reasonably, and easy to spot and define). I'm guessing he wasn't like this at the beginning, tho.
> 
> Jason is a very emotional (even if he doesn't show it usually, unless he has a breakdown or looks for some kind of reaction. It's one of the reasons he comes across as impulsive to some, I think), very caring, a bit anti-social and very capable of putting himself on someone else shoes (and get very hurt from doing so,) sometimes rude vigilante, with a strong sense of justice that doesn't enjoy violence or killing especially (violence at least not more than any other bat), has big psychological issues (not only depression and psychosis, maybe some kind of neurosis too? I'm not a psychologist and wikipedia is sooo not a good source. Definitely self-esteem issues, and he's also egocentric from time to time. And has a case of PTSD from a very complex personal history, I guess. Wow, Jason: you're a mess, but I like you, love) that hurts for love and recognition and definitely knows that the things he does aren't right (he has shown remorse to some extent, and I would say it's the reason why he's not all that honest with himself).
> 
> Frank sees himself as justice itself, sees the system as insufficient, in his acts seeks to achieve retribution alone (a disproportionate one), and sees his vigilantism as a work he has grown to like.
> ...


Man do I hate it when I write up what I think is a really great post and then I lose it somehow. I feel your pain. 

Anyway you've hit the nail on the head here and said pretty much what I wanted to say earlier but didn't have time to and hit all the points I would have probably touched on too.

----------


## Zaresh

> Man do I hate it when I write up what I think is a really great post and then I lose it somehow. I feel your pain. 
> 
> Anyway you've hit the nail on the head here and said pretty much what I wanted to say earlier but didn't have time to and hit all the points I would have probably touched on too.


Thank you! The pain is all even more worthy if it also covers someone else's feels  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Rise

Good post, Zaresh. I actually enjoyed reading your post.

Jason isn't a killing machine and there is more to him than the guy who carry guns. What I like about Jason is his complexity and how layered his character is which rare to find in superhero comics.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Good post, Zaresh. I actually enjoyed reading your post.
> 
> Jason isn't a killing machine and there is more to him than the guy who carry guns. What I like about Jason is his complexity and how layered his character is which rare to find in superhero comics.


Exactly and that is why I love the character so much.

----------


## Zaresh

> Good post, Zaresh. I actually enjoyed reading your post.
> 
> Jason isn't a killing machine and there is more to him than the guy who carry guns. What I like about Jason is his complexity and how layered his character is which rare to find in superhero comics.


This warm I feel when I do something others get to enjoy... Thank you for enjoying it.

Not only that.
Jason is not only interesting because he's a really complex character, (and on top of that, he's pretty relatable despite all his absolutely craziness and wonder of a story). His publishing history is also a perfect example of how comics from corporate companies work, and a total awesome case of how luck and caring can turn the tables for any given character.

(I'm such a fangrill)

----------


## G-Potion

That's a super beautiful post for the 800th page celebration @Zaresh. I just  woke up, it's too early, but I need to say that before going back to sleep.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> That's a super beautiful post for the 800th page celebration @Zaresh. I just  woke up, it's too early, but I need to say that before going back to sleep.


 :Embarrassment:  Thank you.

Changing the subject now. When are the wedding tie-ins out? It was in june, right?

Edited: looks like Guillem March has uploaded his new variant cover (the one with Bizarro and Artemis that we partially saw a while ago)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjKyj79Hl6H/?hl=es

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I wonder if this his final variant.

----------


## Zaresh

> I wonder if this his final variant.


It wouldn't be the first time he writes "last" but means "latest", I think. Maybe I already commented this somewhere eariler, but we don't separate both words in Spanish: "último" is all the same, and it's a common mistake for us (I do the same slippping sometimes).

But then there is not any other teasing pic for a following new cover, so it could be.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And don't forget we have a new artist for 25's variant.

----------


## Zaresh

> And don't forget we have a new artist for 25's variant.


Oh, didn't know (or didn't notice, more so). That ends the guessing, then.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Oh, didn't know (or didn't notice, more so). That ends the guessing, then.


I don't think it has to be his final one just because he doesn't do all of them. I know we've had this same discussion before because he used "last" when he meant "latest."

See the example here.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhKEnlHB...=guillem_march

----------


## G-Potion

Hopefully we'll see his work on RHATO one day.

----------


## RedBird

Thanks for the name of the artist G, I also found this one he apparently posted earlier.



VERY AK-ish

----------


## G-Potion

Oh I haven't seen this one yet. The more I look at it the more I love this design.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

Also a source on twitter said that Titans' Jason will be in both EP.107 and the finale as well.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hopefully we'll see his work on RHATO one day.


Have to say, his Jason is _hot_, in a "That's a mature man I would look at for ours" hot. A very rough but handsome man. Or not, maybe he's not at all, but it's a face with charm for me (I cannot believe I say such a vain thing).

*What I mean is...* After giving last issue a glance, I like his art style a lot. Dirty, but still clear enough for being easy to "read", quite dynamic, and pretty expressive. I wouldn't mind to have him as a regular fill-in or even as a replacement if Soy leaves RHATO someday. His art reminds me of something, but I cannot pinpoint what.




> Also a source on twitter said that Titans' Jason will be in both EP.107 and the finale as well.


Cool.

----------


## Aioros22

Future Jasons tend to look cool and this is no exception. Nice set. 

It also goes along well with the more realistic Vertigo-ish style of Lost years.

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## Aioros22

Gah, forgot the page: 

http://firefly215.tumblr.com/

----------


## Rise

Mustafa is a great artist. I definitely would be happy to see him doing an issue in Rhato.

----------


## Zaresh

Moustafa has uploaded a new pic of Jason from Mother Panic.
https://twitter.com/Ibrahim_M_/statu...64956462460928

DePJHW0U8AAuxrR.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

Pet bat and books! Same books from his shelf in RHATO even. Wonder if he took inspiration from that badass sitting pose Soy did.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

> Pet bat and books! Same books from his shelf in RHATO even. Wonder if he took inspiration from that badass sitting pose Soy did.


Art of War at least, can't really make the one at the top. Bat pet in a cage is nice simbolism. I wonder if he calls him Bruce.

----------


## G-Potion

> Art of War at least, can't really make the one at the top. Bat pet in a cage is nice simbolism. I wonder if he calls him Bruce.


I thought I saw Prince on top at first but on closer inspection I couldn't make it out either. Funny thing is the artist didn't know Jason had Art of War in RHATO, he just picked it because it seemed like something Jason would read.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Why does the wait for RHATO feel so long this time. 

https://twitter.com/LounaAshasou

----------


## G-Potion

May this happen in August.
Where did the bat logo go?

https://twitter.com/Symeona1

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/creeesart

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk





_My partner.

My soldier.

My fault._

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/creeesart


WOAH! Thats awesome
I kinda wish it was an actual cover though  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

I just realize #25 happens in August which is Jason's birth month. Poor guy.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, poor guy.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah, poor guy.


It's just the universe conspiring against his fave toy, nothing new.
Awesome stuff again, guys. Pretty art there.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I just realize #25 happens in August which is Jason's birth month. Poor guy.





> Yeah, poor guy.





> It's just the universe conspiring against his fave toy, nothing new.
> Awesome stuff again, guys. Pretty art there.


You guys have no idea.

----------


## EMarie

> You guys have no idea.


Are you talking about some rumors online?

----------


## G-Potion

> You guys have no idea.


Sounds like you know whatsup.  :EEK!:

----------


## Rise

It might be bad for Jason, but it's good for us. We are getting almost 100 pages of Jason in August. 

And admit it guys, we all love drama.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Are you talking about some rumors online?


Something like that.

----------


## Rise

Spill some beans, Dark.

----------


## G-Potion

> It might be bad for Jason, but it's good for us. We are getting almost 100 pages of Jason in August. 
> 
> And admit it guys, we all love drama.


True. I can't wait for 100 pages of torment. XD

----------


## Zaresh

> Something like that.


You're malicious. How can you tease us like that?
Isn't the wedding special almost in August too? Gotta be some interesting times.

(I'm a sinful woman too, I'll admit that. I love some good drama if it has a purpose and reason behind)

----------


## EMarie

> Something like that.


I've heard some rumors and if their true it should be interesting.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> I've heard some rumors and if their true it should be interesting.


I feel like we're always hearing things that come from a ~source on Tumblr~ that never pan out/materialize.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> You guys have no idea.


Is there a hit or a solicitation coming any time soon?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is there a hit or a solicitation coming any time soon?


Next month solicits should give up some of the stuff Lobdell has planned.

----------


## EMarie

> I feel like we're always hearing things that come from a ~source on Tumblr~ that never pan out/materialize.


Sometimes it's hard to say if their in the know or not but sometimes they admit the information they received was the pitched or first draft version. I was lucky enough to read one of these myself once and a lot usually changes between what's written in draft form and what makes the page. Sometimes you can see this in interviews where the ideas they talk about never come to be for one reason or another.

In the case I'm referring to I'm more inclined to believe just based on hints throughout Lobdell's writing. Stuff that felt like it was building towards something, etc.

----------


## Rise

To be fair to the tumblr source, they said that RHATO is getting its first annual months before it was announced last year. Whether it was a lucky guess or they indeed in the know, I have no idea.

----------


## Rise

Oh, and I think they were the first one to point out that Lobdell is planning something with Jason's father and he indeed is.

----------


## thebluefeline

Link for said source?  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/gothamtwinks

----------


## ysosrs

I found my halloween costume!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjZwmuNA6bX/

----------


## Jovos2099

We seem to have gotten a lot of alternative earth/timeline Jason's over the last year or so maybe  to make up for the time Jason was dead he starting to catch up with characters with the sheer number of alternate selves he has.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If this rumor about The Batman is true, it sucks it was scrapped.




> Ben Affleck with Snyder at helm wanted to make a trilogy (besides the main series), where Part 1 and 2 in the trilogy would take place nearly a decade ago with the final one taking place during The Arrival of Superman. As he was very much aligned with Zack Snyder's vision, his interpretation of Batman was also going to be terrorizing and brutal, but with a lot less causalities besides *dealing with the relationship b/w Batman and Robin/Jason Todd in the trilogy.*

----------


## G-Potion

Because of the new Penguin rumor?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because of the new Penguin rumor?


I haven't seen the Penguin rumor, but this one is supposedly what Affleck and Snyder had planned when Affleck was still directing and starring The Batman.

----------


## G-Potion

Ah well. My expectation regarding Jason being in The Batman pretty much became zero the moment Matt Reeves came in.

----------


## Rise

I find it hard to believe especially after the revelations made by Snyder. 




> We seem to have gotten a lot of alternative earth/timeline Jason's over the last year or so maybe  to make up for the time Jason was dead he starting to catch up with characters with the sheer number of alternate selves he has.


I'm glad about this. I like alt universe stories and it's nice to see Jason appearing more and more.

----------


## G-Potion

Talking of which, I haven't been keeping up with Injustice. No idea what he's doing after escaping with Vixen.

----------


## G-Potion

Also, sharing this because Sonicfox's Red Hood is a beast and this set gave me a good laugh.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I find it hard to believe especially after the revelations made by Snyder.


Snyder hasn't t revealed anything. He just decided to let the fans pick whatever interpretation they think it fits.

----------


## fanfilmboyz

Hey everyone, my name is Robert and I am one of the hosts of the Fan Film Boyz Podcast, the ONLY podcast that discusses, reviews and helps promote fan films.  The reason for my post in this thread is because our latest Show 40 - He who wears the Red Hood has just been released and it as all about the fan film 'Red Hood IT' which I thought you would all be interested in.  The film is a mash up of Jason Todd's Red Hood meeting Pennywise The Clown. I have nothing to do with the film BUT we did review it and I would love for you to check it out.  If you are interested you can find it on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify or directly from our host site at www.fanfilmboyz.podbean.com.


Thanks, and I look forward to talking more with you all!

----------


## G-Potion

> Hey everyone, my name is Robert and I am one of the hosts of the Fan Film Boyz Podcast, the ONLY podcast that discusses, reviews and helps promote fan films.  The reason for my post in this thread is because our latest Show 40 - He who wears the Red Hood has just been released and it as all about the fan film 'Red Hood IT' which I thought you would all be interested in.  The film is a mash up of Jason Todd's Red Hood meeting Pennywise The Clown. I have nothing to do with the film BUT we did review it and I would love for you to check it out.  If you are interested you can find it on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify or directly from our host site at www.fanfilmboyz.podbean.com.
> 
> 
> Thanks, and I look forward to talking more with you all!


Aside from some questinable costume choice, I like it very much as it's one of the few Red Hood films that features a Jason who's both brutal and compassionate. Would love to see more from them.

----------


## G-Potion

So after Gotham Garage, Mother Panic and Arkham Knight, I've noticed that the aspect of Jason as a leader or a prominent member of a group of ordinary men fascinates me. Would you guys like main universe's Jason to have something like that as well? I love the henchmen Lobdell wrote in RHATO and think if the Red Hood empire could plausibly exist under Jason, he would excel at writing the dynamic between Jason and his subordinates.

----------


## Zaresh

> So after Gotham Garage, Mother Panic and Arkham Knight, I've noticed that the aspect of Jason as a leader or a prominent member of a group of ordinary men fascinates me. Would you guys like main universe's Jason to have something like that as well? I love the henchmen Lobdell wrote in RHATO and think if the Red Hood empire could plausibly exist under Jason, he would excel at writing the dynamic between Jason and his subordinates.


I don't know. I cannot think of a lot of good stories with Jason as some sort of general of any sort of force that is massive in numbers, and paint him as sort of heroic. All I can think of are small groups, not more than 6 or 7, to be honest, and that could work either for people ordinary or extraordinary. One of his strengths as a character is how much he gets involved into the ones he surrounds himself with (or the ones he decides to fight against), and a thing like a book in which he's commanding some sort of small army of thugs feels very impersonal. Unless it's a book in which he goes thug by thug in each issue, a sort of anthology: those books rarely work.

----------


## EMarie

There was also that time in Tynion's run where Jason was supposed to run the LOA although he never had real power in that story. 

I can see Jason being a good leader for an army of people but I don't think he'd do that in a normal setting. It's not something he's looking for and he'd have to take on huge responsibilities since he'd have to make sure no one stepped out of line.

On another note the wait til the next issue is killing me.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah it's pretty difficult to pull off when he's only pretending to be a crime lord. That aside though, considering the Arkham's Knight militia dialogs in the game, I guess Jason does get personal with some of them to some degree to earn that level of trust. Main universe Jason isn't someone who would want to lead but if accidentally put into that role he could do it. I wonder if the idea could still work if there are a certain few he trust enough to let them in on his true mission, and trust them to not step out of line. 

Same. Dying of anticipation here. Is the preview out this week?

----------


## G-Potion

> All I can think of are small groups, not more than 6 or 7, to be honest, and that could work either for people ordinary or extraordinary. One of his strengths as a character is how much he gets involved into the ones he surrounds himself with (or the ones he decides to fight against), and a thing like a book in which he's commanding some sort of small army of thugs feels very impersonal. Unless it's a book in which he goes thug by thug in each issue, a sort of anthology: those books rarely work.


When I think of the size of his gang, or at least the people he actually trust, it doesn't go more than 6 or 7 either. And I think the main difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that for the former, there's a connection based on being a Gotham citizen, shared experience of hard life and poverty and an understanding how it can lead to a life of crime. Don't think the idea of thug by thug alone can sustain a book either, but I certainly love it to be a recurring element in a Red Hood book.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> So after Gotham Garage, Mother Panic and Arkham Knight, I've noticed that the aspect of Jason as a leader or a prominent member of a group of ordinary men fascinates me. Would you guys like main universe's Jason to have something like that as well? I love the henchmen Lobdell wrote in RHATO and think if the Red Hood empire could plausibly exist under Jason, he would excel at writing the dynamic between Jason and his subordinates.


I think not Jason's better off leading a smaller group. Though i have a friend that created her own version of the Outlaws and there seem to be more members. If you could work it more like anti-hero group I think it could work better.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think not Jason's better off leading a smaller group. Though i have a friend that created her own version of the Outlaws and there seem to be more members. If you could work it more like anti-hero group I think it could work better.


Number is not a concern to me. My interest lies more in the ordinary aspect of the members. Small army/gang members, you name it. Mainly because I imagined the people that he has in AK, Garage and Mother Panic being written with the banter like  those henchmen Lobdell wrote in RHATO. I don't mean this as a replacement for the Outlaws. More like an extension of his crime lord front.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Number is not a concern to me. My interest lies more in the ordinary aspect of the members. Small army/gang members, you name it. Mainly because I imagined the people that he has in AK, Garage and Mother Panic being written with the banter like  those henchmen Lobdell wrote in RHATO. I don't mean this as a replacement for the Outlaws. More like an extension of his crime lord front.


It can be done but Jason will still needs 'capos' to manage his 'criminal empire'.

----------


## G-Potion

> On another note the wait til the next issue is killing me.


You can look but not touch.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> It can be done but Jason will still needs 'capos' to manage his 'criminal empire'.


Yep. It's harder to be a big player in Gotham Underground by being a lone wolf.

----------


## magpieM

Imagine how many connections he needs to maintain to get info from every source in Gotham underworld.

----------


## EMarie

> You can look but not touch.


Looks good. Who's hoping for a shovel fight?




> Same. Dying of anticipation here. Is the preview out this week?


I was half hoping it'd be linked on here. It'd probably have a build up that gets cut short. Jason is reading the letter with Willis telling him that he has the most shocking thing to reveal ! Then we get a page of Artemis giving Bizarro an ice cream bar before the preview ended. Seriously this has been teased for awhile.

----------


## G-Potion

> Imagine how many connections he needs to maintain to get info from every source in Gotham underworld.


Yep the point of going undercover is that he's accessible to more sources than any Bats would. Shame that he hasn't utilized that so far. Need to hire somebody. Actually, he could also use the henchmen app for various purposes.

On another note though, what do you guys think about his stance on crime? Does he still believe that it can only be controlled rather than stopped? That's the case, I wouldn't mind him getting his share of the business.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Yep the point of going undercover is that he's accessible to more sources than any Bats would. Shame that he hasn't utilized that so far. Need to hire somebody. Actually, he could also use the henchmen app for various purposes.
> 
> On another note though, what do you guys think about his stance on crime? Does he still believe that it can only be controlled rather than stopped? That's the case, I wouldn't mind him getting his share of the business.


It Jason is still going to kill criminals then I doubt he will continue to use that idea of controlling crime. Especially when the mobsters he deals with will get cold feet after a while when they learn he's not really on their side and either flee Gotham or try to kill Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> It Jason is still going to kill criminals then I doubt he will continue to use that idea of controlling crime. Especially when the mobsters he deals with will get cold feet after a while when they learn he's not really on their side and either flee Gotham or try to kill Jason.


I don't think so though. Jason will kill when he absolutely needs to. Otherwise he's a lot more restrained now.

----------


## Zaresh

> On another note though, what do you guys think about his stance on crime? Does he still believe that it can only be controlled rather than stopped? That's the case, I wouldn't mind him getting his share of the business.


I suspect that, even if he still has a very pragmatic approach, he's not really convinced about the idea of controlling crime by being a criminal as the only one and alone way that works for Gotham anymore. In fact, I think that, in his coming back, when he was full crime lording the city, he mostly did so as a means to achieve something else, as much as he pointed out how his methods worked and told Batman that he was doing it to prove his point. A positive side effect in his plan that would also hurt Bruce. I don't know, just my impression, which was even more settled with the movie.

I do think that he still believes that crime cannot be stopped, though.

But in the end, that depends of what each writer thinks he believes in each time.

I'm totally hung up, waiting for next issue too.

----------


## Rise

> I was half hoping it'd be linked on here. It'd probably have a build up that gets cut short. Jason is reading the letter with Willis telling him that he has the most shocking thing to reveal ! Then we get a page of Artemis giving Bizarro an ice cream bar before the preview ended. Seriously this has been teased for awhile.


The true troll move if Lobdell give us Jason's reaction to the letters, but not the details yet.

We found out about the letters and this arc has going for almost a year. I hope the pay off really worth it at the end.

----------


## EMarie

> The true troll move if Lobdell give us Jason's reaction to the letters, but not the details yet.
> 
> We found out about the letters and this arc has going for almost a year. I hope the pay off really worth it at the end.


Quoting in case this comes to pass. Although I could see it working out in story if Jason started acting weird and we're seeing it through the eyes of his teammates.

So far I've loved any plotline that Lobdell has delving into Jason's emotions.

----------


## Restingvoice

Found this on Pinterest
5ea4a21cecbb21761026942017ba8813.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> Found this on Pinterest
> 5ea4a21cecbb21761026942017ba8813.jpg


Tag is so true.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

http://nanihoosartblog.tumblr.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://britaisy.tumblr.com/post/174745527166

----------


## G-Potion

http://ghostyartblog.tumblr.com/post/174685940724

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

DfgrZeHU0AAVZau.jpg

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...02245968785409

They're playing for the keeps.

----------


## EMarie

> DfgrZeHU0AAVZau.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...02245968785409
> 
> They're playing for the keeps.


It looks like Bruce is trying to get Jason's leg. I hope for a UTH reference with Jason cutting the line but his hands look like their too full.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> DfgrZeHU0AAVZau.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...02245968785409
> 
> They're playing for the keeps.


His caption on Instagram was "illmissyou." Damn, that sucks.

----------


## Aioros22

Is Soy playing with the feels by mentioning some issues off or is he leaving? 

No other Bat book comes even close with the attachment.

----------


## Aioros22

Annnd what is likely the missing piece for the spread.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Is Soy playing with the feels by mentioning some issues off or is he leaving? 
> 
> No other Bat book comes even close with the attachment.


Well since he mentioned it. 

Yes, he's leaving the book. The new artist is already working on future issues.

----------


## Rise

> DfgrZeHU0AAVZau.jpg
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...02245968785409
> 
> They're playing for the keeps.





> Annnd what is likely the missing piece for the spread.


So it was Jason who shooting at Batman. He most be really angry for him to do that.

And sad to hear Soy is leaving, but I hope whoever the new artist is good too.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Well since he mentioned it. 
> 
> Yes, he's leaving the book. The new artist is already working on future issues.


Aw that's sad. Loved Soy's artwork. But it looks like issue 25 is the last one for the book. Wonder if they're going to be going for a new direction after the annual.

----------


## Zaresh

> Aw that's sad. Loved Soy's artwork. *But it looks like issue 25 is the last one for the book. Wonder if they're going to be going for a new direction after the annual.*


Wait, what? Source? What did I miss?

----------


## Rise

I think thebluefeline meant that issue 25 will be Soy's last issue, not the last issue of the series.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well since he mentioned it. 
> 
> Yes, he's leaving the book. The new artist is already working on future issues.


You mean the artist for the annual? I thought it was just because Soy can't possibly do 100 pages worth of art. Or is it a different artist we are talking about?

In anycase, sad news. I shouldn't have woken up.  :Frown:

----------


## Zaresh

> I think thebluefeline meant that issue 25 will be Soy's last issue, not the last issue of the series.


Oh, Ok. Geez, I was freaking out. It seems that I'm already too sleepy to process any new info properly :_)

If Soy leaves RHATO, I will miss him terribly, too.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh, Ok. Geez, I was freaking out. It seems that I'm already too sleepy to process any new info properly :_)
> 
> If Soy leaves RHATO, I will miss him terribly, too.


Actually I also interpreted bluefeline's comment the same way you did.

----------


## Zaresh

> Actually I also interpreted bluefeline's comment the same way you did.


Alright. Still, I'll call my day for now. Tomorrow there will be revelations and sleeping is a very good flashforward technique  :Cool: .

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Actually I also interpreted bluefeline's comment the same way you did.


Same, as in, comparing like when RHATO ended and became Red Hood and Arsenal.

----------


## G-Potion

> Alright. Still, I'll call my day for now. Tomorrow there will be revelations and sleeping is a very good flashforward technique .


I wish I could do that but I just woke up. If I could possibly go back to sleep for the next 12 hours I would.  :Frown:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Well since he mentioned it. 
> 
> Yes, he's leaving the book. The new artist is already working on future issues.


Awww I really loved how well his style meshed with this team. Sad to see him go but I hope he does well after this too, he's got a distinct style that matches comics but still has his own signature all over and theres very little I can think of that won't suit his art.

----------


## magpieM

Oh no... That's a terrible news (especially when I'm anxious about the reveal of the letters tommorow). He won't be drawing future stories rooted in those letters... Part of me was also expecting his own Red Hood design could show up in comic or games one day

----------


## EMarie

> Oh no... That's a terrible news (especially when I'm anxious about the reveal of the letters tommorow). He won't be drawing future stories rooted in those letters... Part of me was also expecting his own Red Hood design could show up in comic or games one day


I really thought they'd figure out a way to uses his designs for a storyline. Sad to hear the news, I love his work. 

I'm anxious and excited about the reveal tomorrow too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> You mean the artist for the annual? I thought it was just because Soy can't possibly do 100 pages worth of art. Or is it a different artist we are talking about?
> 
> In anycase, sad news. I shouldn't have woken up.


Different artist.

----------


## G-Potion

> Different artist.


Can you share with us who they are?

----------


## EMarie

> Can you share with us who they are?


We'll probably know on Monday along with the direction of the new arc in the solicits.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Actually I also interpreted bluefeline's comment the same way you did.


Sorry I should have clarified I meant just that Soy's last issue is 25 as I'm assuming that the spreads are for the 25th issue. I'm actually wondering if they might be going for more solo stories with Red hood in the future though. I love the current team but it would be great to see a couple of arcs of a solo Red Hood in Gotham.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sorry I should have clarified I meant just that Soy's last issue is 25 as I'm assuming that the spreads are for the 25th issue. I'm actually wondering if they might be going for more solo stories with Red hood in the future though. I love the current team but it would be great to see a couple of arcs of a solo Red Hood in Gotham.


Yeah a solo book would open up new venues for Jason. Whichever it is, I hope Lobdell stays with the book for the time being. I feel he still has a lot stories to tell.

----------


## EMarie

I've been thinking since Lobdell wrote the previous Outlaws that he could write some mini series. One about his Robin days, his All Caste days and some solo missions.

----------


## G-Potion

> I've been thinking since Lobdell wrote the previous Outlaws that he could write some mini series. One about his Robin days, his All Caste days and some solo missions.


All of which I'd love to see from Lobdell.

----------


## EMarie

A Robin mini series could really give Jason more needed stories for that time. It could show more of the awkward period when Bruce and Dick fought and how that affected him. Maybe we'd finally see what Jason's first solo mission was.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I've been thinking since Lobdell wrote the previous Outlaws that he could write some mini series. One about his Robin days, his All Caste days and some solo missions.


Oooo this would be really nice to see

----------


## The Dying Detective

A shame for Dexter Soy to leave the series he's a great artist. And I doubt the series will get canned.

----------


## AJpyro

> I've been thinking since Lobdell wrote the previous Outlaws that he could write some mini series. One about his Robin days, his All Caste days and some solo missions.


Ya know, that would've helped smooth over the rough edges of New 52. Mini-series for certain characters.

----------


## G-Potion

> A shame for Dexter Soy to leave the series he's a great artist. And I doubt the series will get canned.


I don't think it will get canned, but with Soy leaving it does feel like a new direction is coming.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't think it will get canned, but with Soy leaving it does feel like a new direction is coming.


As long as Artemis and Bizarro stick around I'm good. And I doubt Artemis will stay with Wonder Woman for long.

----------


## Rise

This looks like from the aftermath of Jason and Bruce's fight. The next months look like they are going to be really emotional. 

And yeah, I think we are going to get a new direction. From the rebirth issue to issue 25 are the first part of Rhato which will end soon and the next part will start with issue 26.

----------


## G-Potion

> This looks like from the aftermath of Jason and Bruce's fight. The next months look like they are going to be really emotional. 
> 
> And yeah, I think we are going to get a new direction. From the rebirth issue to issue 25 are the first part of Rhato which will end soon and the next part will start with issue 26.


I'm sad by everything I see today. And I haven't read the new issue yet.

----------


## Aioros22

Get ready for them rollecoaster then.

----------


## adrikito

Jason mother was like one minor version of Artemis..

For one moment I saw Penguin sniper and I thought that he would be Jason father.

----------


## Aioros22

Not only dad issues but a sniff of Oedipus complex as well? For years Jason was quick to dismiss his father as a bag of mess in detritment of the mother he tried to save but now he`s finding out that the bag of mess is not just a construct but a real person, who for all his faults, did like like the both of them. 

And to think some fans of blue stripes cry over him being techno numb  :Stick Out Tongue: 

All the better thought, well written tragedy a greater character makes.

----------


## G-Potion

> Get ready for them rollecoaster then.


Alright. About to hit them book. :|

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Remember King's Sanctuary?

It has been turned into this year's event.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...trauma-1119410

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Remember King's Sanctuary?
> 
> It has been turned into this year's event.
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...trauma-1119410


Tom King's work? Events? I won't hold my breath.

----------


## Aahz

> Remember King's Sanctuary?
> 
> It has been turned into this year's event.
> 
> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...trauma-1119410


Is Jason on the cover?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Is Jason on the cover?


No he's not but maybe he should check in to it. His friend tried ot hide secrets from him and Artemis the girl he is attracted to may have killed his father I say he might need some help.

----------


## G-Potion

> I say he might need some help.


Not by Tom King for sure.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not by Tom King for sure.


Well give it a chance it might surprise us.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well give it a chance it might surprise us.


Would be a surprise for sure, considering how he got Jason terribly wrong every chance he's had so far. Burned so many times, I don't feel like bracing myself for another attempt to be honest.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Would be a surprise for sure, considering how he got Jason terribly wrong every chance he's had so far. Burned so many times, I don't feel like bracing myself for another attempt to be honest.


Well at least TOm King let's Jason join in the Batfamily every now and then. But what's wrong with how King does Jason?

----------


## G-Potion

> Well at least TOm King let's Jason join in the Batfamily every now and then. But what's wrong with how King does Jason?


Latest one? Having Jason invent the electric tires, some children were accidentally killed by them, Jason was jailed, got bailed out, all the time looking smugly unrepentant. You know. Jason. The guy who is canonically brutal when it comes to crime against women and children. 

More failed attempts can be found in Batman, Robin War and Grayson. I don't feel like listing them out because I'll just get angry.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Well at least TOm King let's Jason join in the Batfamily every now and then. But what's wrong with how King does Jason?


How many times has Jason appeared in Tom King's work for Batman? Three times? Four? Serious question. And the one time was just as a hanging body. (And that was in the same issue as the diner, no?, so it's really just one appearance.)

I liked the scene in the diner, sure, but it was quick comedic relief. And then ofc there's the Twitter-backlash joke scene of Jason getting beaten by Ace. I remember some kind of scene with most of the family in the panel, but I really can't remember if that was King or not. Even if it was, I don't think Jason had lines, or that anyone did.  

I'm really not sure if there was anything else. He doesn't use Jason, and none of the scenes have been particularly meaningful. 

I think people dislike his work with Jason because it's mostly just been comedic relief, and not everyone sees it as being in-character. But he just doesn't use Jason, period. I'm not sure he's ever spoken to Bruce in the book, except a quip in the diner scene. I still remember how we were supposed to see all of the Batfam's reactions to the wedding news, and all we saw was Damian's and Dick's. For King, Damian and Dick are Bruce's sons and that's it.

Edited to add: Oh, yeah, just remembered the most recent stuff with the time traveling mess up. Well, someone else can explain that.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well at least TOm King let's Jason join in the Batfamily every now and then. But what's wrong with how King does Jason?


Also I think Jason's appearance among the family should be measured. It goes against how he's written in RHATO if he's there with the family every little occasions.

----------


## Zaresh

> Is Jason on the cover?


That would imply that he knows Jason's characterization and personal strugglings. As much as I like King's writing, I don't see it.
Also, didn't saw him in the cover. There was Batman, and Damian, and Barbara, tho.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Latest one? Having Jason invent the electric tires, some children were accidentally killed by them, Jason was jailed, got bailed out, all the time looking smugly unrepentant. You know. Jason. The guy who is canonically brutal when it comes to crime against women and children. 
> 
> More failed attempts can be found in Batman, Robin War and Grayson. I don't feel like listing them out because I'll just get angry.


Okay, okay I get your point thougheverything was wrong about that future particularly DIck.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Latest one? Having Jason invent the electric tires, some children were accidentally killed by them, Jason was jailed, got bailed out, all the time looking smugly unrepentant. You know. Jason. The guy who is canonically brutal when it comes to crime against women and children. 
> 
> More failed attempts can be found in Batman, Robin War and Grayson. I don't feel like listing them out because I'll just get angry.


That one was a 'what if Bruce's parents hadn't survived' scenario though so it doesn't really count as an "in continuity" characterization of Jason at all. There was no one in that story whose characterization matched their "in continuity" one and so this is more akin to an elseworlds version of Jason and the rest or at least to me it is. The moment Booster messed with the timeline it became a different one, unconnected to the "real" one. Also Robin War wasn't all King. Other writers were involved in that one. I also had no problem with what little of Jason we got in Grayson. He slugged Dick and frankly the guy had it coming by pretending to be dead in the first place IMO.

----------


## G-Potion

> That one was a 'what if Bruce's parents hadn't survived' scenario though so it doesn't really count as an "in continuity" characterization of Jason at all. There was no one in that story whose characterization matched their "in continuity" one and that was the point.


To be honest, that's exactly why I hate it so much. I can't get on board with the idea that just because the life of a VIP character follows a different course, it automatically changes the core values of others.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> That would imply that he knows Jason's characterization and personal strugglings. As much as I like King's writing, I don't see it.
> Also, didn't saw him in the cover. There was Batman, and Damian, and Barbara, tho.


Dick, Alfred, and Tim, too.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dick, Alfred, and Tim, too.


In my defense, I have very poor eyesight!
Glad to hear about Tim. He sure as hell would need it. But I'm intrigued about how he will approach the character. I'm not exactly a fan of Tim, but he has grown on me and so much bullying is only making me be going a bit papa bear towards him, silly at it may sound.

By the way; no Jason, but no Cass either. And I don't know why she's not, as much as I'm glad Jason isn't (even if it annoys me a little bit). She clearly needs it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> To be honest, that's exactly why I hate it so much. I can't get on board with the idea that just because the life of a VIP character follows a different course, it automatically changes the core values of others.


The only part that really bothered me was that Dick became Batman. That made no sense whatever. In this case though it changes the others BECAUSE Bruce wasn't around to give them support so they were forced to make their own way in the world. IMO its no different than what happens to the characters in Gotham City Garage or in Elseworld stories were things have gone a bit differently.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Dick, Alfred, and Tim, too.


Is saw Dick and Alfred but where is Tim?

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Is saw Dick and Alfred but where is Tim?


Right by Alfred.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Right by Alfred.


Thanks. I guess that person in a mask next to Alfred could be Tim. It's kinda hard to tell for sure though. In any case it doesn't appear that Jason is in that image so its doubtful he's involved with Sanctuary anyway.

----------


## okiedokiewo

https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573

DC 5 Robins Damian Wayne Stephanie Brown Jason Todd Dick Grayson Tim.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> The only part that really bothered me was that Dick became Batman. That made no sense whatever. In this case though it changes the others BECAUSE Bruce wasn't around to give them support so they were forced to make their own way in the world.


I would be fine with it sometimes but not when it's something I consider an inherent value of a character, value that wasn't given by Batman.

----------


## Rise

> The only part that really bothered me was that Dick became Batman. That made no sense whatever. In this case though it changes the others BECAUSE Bruce wasn't around to give them support so they were forced to make their own way in the world. It's no different than what happens to the characters in Gotham City Garage or in Elseworld stories were things have gone a bit differently.


To be fair, Jason's life didn't really become better under Batman's care considering he was murdered and killed young. I still stand with my point that Jason would have been better off without him.

And about King writing Jason, I don't take it seriously so it doesn't really bother me.

----------


## Aioros22

> The only part that really bothered me was that Dick became Batman. That made no sense whatever. In this case though it changes the others BECAUSE Bruce wasn't around to give them support so they were forced to make their own way in the world. IMO its no different than what happens to the characters in Gotham City Garage or in Elseworld stories were things have gone a bit differently.


That and the entire JL dying just because Bruce wasn`t Batman on the team and Selina being a stone cold psycopath who only talks in meows. Because it`s obviously connected. 

No bash on King, I love the guy on a technical and storytelling point most of the time but I think he struggles when it comes to a level of execution in a big franchise as of yet. That might change and I hope it does. He`s good but I find no coincidence that the one divisive run he`s had is exactly the big DC franchise.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I would be fine with it sometimes but not when it's something I consider an inherent value of a character, value that wasn't given by Batman.


Those core values weren't given by Batman sure but they were perhaps further cultivated by Batman when he took Dick and the others in. Could they have cultivated them on their own, sure, but without a stable environment Jason (and the rest) could very well have ended up a totally different people. For example a life spent on the streets would have had an effect on Jason's development and I think he would have later become embittered and would have ended up shedding what morals he had as time passed in order to simply survive in that environment.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> To be fair, Jason's life didn't really become better under Batman's care considering he was murdered and killed young. I still stand with my point that Jason would have been better off without him.
> 
> And about King writing Jason, I don't take it seriously so it doesn't really bother me.


It did become better between the time he was taken in and his eventual death though and that's really what I was talking about. Without that he would have been a stone cold criminal or perhaps dead.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That and the entire JL dying just because Bruce wasn`t Batman on the team and Selina being a stone cold psycopath who only talks in meows. Because it`s obviously connected. 
> 
> No bash on King, I love the guy on a technical and storytelling point most of the time but I think he struggles when it comes to a level of execution in a big franchise as of yet. That might change and I hope it does. He`s good but I find no coincidence that the one divisive run he`s had is exactly the big DC franchise.


Batman is his first work within a big franchise and Batman being Batman is what makes it so difficult for writers. There are pressures and fan expectations there that there aren't there when a writer handles a smaller property. I give him a lot of leeway because of all that. Whether other people do the same is up to them.

(Gah I hate having to post from my phone but my internet is down. Sorry for the multi-posts. I normally don't do them.)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> https://twitter.com/pqcomics/status/1006970456451309573
> 
> DC 5 Robins Damian Wayne Stephanie Brown Jason Todd Dick Grayson Tim.jpg


Nice pic there.

----------


## Aioros22

Who`s the guy at Hawkman`s right with the red shirt/jacket and hat? Roy or civics Jay?

----------


## G-Potion

> Those core values weren't given by Batman sure but they were perhaps further cultivated by Batman when he took Dick and the others in. Could they have cultivated them on their own, sure, but without a stable environment Jason (and the rest) could very well have ended up a totally different people. For example a life spent on the streets would have had an effect on Jason's development and I think he would have later become embittered and would have ended up shedding what morals he had as time passed in order to simply survive in that environment.


To be honest, I might have seen it that way too had King managed to nail Jason's character sometimes previously. As jaded by past experiences as I was, all I felt reading it was just another unflattering, comic-relieving take.

----------


## Rise

> It did become better between the time he was taken in and his eventual death though and that's really what I was talking about. Without that he would have been a stone cold criminal or perhaps dead.


Being a homeless kid doesn't mean you are for sure going to end up being "a stone cold criminal" especially considering that Jason as kid had strong morals. Just look at his friend Gabby who didn't become criminal or real life examples of kids who turned out fine and some of them even end up being rich and successful. 

And about ending up dead, it's not like Batman improved his chances since he end up dead anyone and in the worst way possible no less.

----------


## EMarie

Flashpoint is a good example of Jason turning out fine without Bruce. Sure he struggled but he managed to turn his life around.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Who`s the guy at Hawkman`s right with the red shirt/jacket and hat? Roy or civics Jay?


I'll admit I had the same question, but for now I'll assume Roy.

----------


## EMarie

I checked out tumblr and kind of wish I didn't. Some are calling it retconning B.S. I think the point of it was that Jason didn't know the whole story and we were previously only getting his POV.

----------


## G-Potion

> I checked out tumblr and kind of wish I didn't. Some are calling it retconning B.S. I think the point of it was that Jason didn't know the whole story and we were previously only getting his POV.


Yikes. Meaning they hate that Lobdell humanized Willis?

----------


## Rise

Tumblr is only good for art and gifs when it come to fandoms like this. They always whine and think they know characters better just from reading/watching one material of said character so it's always best to not bother with them.

----------


## EMarie

I skimmed through some of it. They said he was abusive and while I recall that I don't remember him hurting Jason. It took me a second to recall any mention of it. I do remember Jason telling Duela that his dad beat up his mom for wasting money on cigarettes. I think it could still work with Willis reaching his breaking point with his henchmen job, Jason's medical bills and them blaming each other for his illness.

----------


## Rise

Well, Lobdell did turn Willis into good for nothing abusive father and it was implied that he did hit him. I remembered that we had an argurment here about it once and I argued how I really hated what he did. So, I'm glad that he rectonned it.

----------


## Zaresh

> Tumblr is only good for art and gifs when it come to fandoms like this. They always whine and think they know characters better just from reading/watching one material of said character so it's always best to not bother with them.


And besides, as a rule of thumb, complaining people always, always are going to be more noisy than people who are fine with something. Even if they're few, people who usually give negative feedback usually get more attention, for whatever reason. It works for almost everything as far as i've noticed (business, art, you name it).

----------


## Aahz

> I think it could still work with Willis reaching his breaking point with his henchmen job, Jason's medical bills and them blaming each other for his illness.


I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier. 

I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.

It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.

----------


## Zaresh

> I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier. 
> 
> I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.
> 
> It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.


This is fun.

Willis mentions his "bad genes" besides the drugs Catherine was in, as possible reasons.

----------


## EMarie

I'm fine with it being retconned since the Willis from Jason's POV seemed too dumb to function.




> I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier. 
> 
> I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.
> 
> It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.


I'm thinking Willis didn't get detailed for a reason. He says it could have been his bad genes or the drugs she never stopped taking. It sounds like the drugs would be more likely but Willis wouldn't want to say that. As someone else mentioned on tumblr Jason, like many babies with mothers who used while pregnant, likely was born addicted. He might be going through withdrawal.

----------


## Rise

> I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier. 
> 
> I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.
> 
> It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.


Why would he lie to Jason about that when he promised him in the first letter that he wouldn't? Seriously, the "unreliable narrator" is such a lazy and annoying excuse that I see being used a lot here.

I have no problem with the medical thing because the theme of the issue was about fathers and sons and it makes sense he is his reason for getting involved with bad guys.

----------


## EMarie

I'm inclined to believe Willis is mostly being honest with the possible exception of not knowing who was to blame for Jason's health issues.

I think the medical issues being on Jason rather than Catherine works since the point is Jason is the one thing Willis is proud of. With Catherine you could argue it was because of her addiction while Jason could be ill because of his parents actions making it more tragic. Willis got out of drug dealing but gets back into crime for his son.

----------


## Zaresh

I too think it's more likely that Willis is telling the truth. It's not rare either. I think the unreliable narrator is still a solid possibility for Jason, though.

----------


## EMarie

True. It's not that Jason is a liar but he might not have the whole picture. We know Jason has trouble believing Bruce and the others care but that doesn't mean they don't care.

----------


## Aioros22

> I skimmed through some of it. They said he was abusive and while I recall that I don't remember him hurting Jason. It took me a second to recall any mention of it. I do remember Jason telling Duela that his dad beat up his mom for wasting money on cigarettes. I think it could still work with Willis reaching his breaking point with his henchmen job, Jason's medical bills and them blaming each other for his illness.


Aka: fuckers don`t need to be carboard level characters. What do they thought the issue about the humanizing henchemen _was for_? 

You can actually include all in without crying any BS (which of course Tumbrl will because a good deal of them are entitled viewers who care more about projecting their headcanon that to debate what is actually in the published material and what could be better) and still come up with a rounded character, which glady he is on the way of becoming. 

But sure, you can call it retconing if you wish to. Before Wills was just there, now he`s got character. Apples and oranges.

----------


## Aioros22

The thing about Jason`s ileness is to clearly address how he could not have survived since he was a kid. Or in short, the *Dammed Prince of Gotham* has been a survivor since day one!

----------


## G-Potion

> The thing about Jason`s ileness is to clearly address how he could not have survived since he was a kid. Or in short, the *Dammed Prince of Gotham* has been a survivor since day one!


That's a really good point.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if him surviving the operating table was also a miracle in line with his ressurrection.

----------


## thebluefeline

Oh man what if he's been granted with immortality o.o Farfetched i know but it would make for really interesting possibilities. Or maybe it comes back to the idea with his soul? That maybe it's different than normal people and it's been sent back constantly from death's doors for that reason. Would love to see if it has to do with Death the Endless >v <

----------


## EMarie

I think you mean Jason not Willis? I remember the possibility was talked about after the Futures End issue. I do think he's changed because of his death. There have been possible hints at it throughout Lobdell's run.

----------


## thebluefeline

Yea I meant Jason. That's interesting. Didn't catch the hints in the Future End issue. I'll go back and read it later.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Aka: fuckers don`t need to be carboard level characters. What do they thought the issue about the humanizing henchemen _was for_? 
> 
> You can actually include all in without crying any BS (which of course Tumbrl will because a good deal of them are entitled viewers who care more about projecting their headcanon that to debate what is actually in the published material and what could be better) and still come up with a rounded character, which glady he is on the way of becoming. 
> 
> But sure, you can call it retconing if you wish to. Before Wills was just there, now he`s got character. Apples and oranges.


I'm really into this addition to Will's character too. I've seen a few times on tumblr where there's this idea that media adds too much to a villain's backstory for sympathy points and that antagonist leaning characters don't deserve humanizing because this misleads the audience into forgiving an abuser.

I highly doubt this arc is going to be about forgiving anyone considering we literally see Jason under tables with the dog trying to avoid his screaming parents but humanizing can do so much for a narritive.

This issue really did it well, Will is still not a good dad and none of these letters change the fact Jason's been living out his parents consequences since birth. But I also think Jason has a history of equating that actions directly show how another person feels about you. There's a few early examples where he takes Bruce's physical fights with him to mean 100% Bruce has lost all love for him. I think Will's letters really shoved in his face that Will is one character where he treated his son very badly but clearly had positive feelings for him. It's just that as Will said "love didn't fix anything" and I think this is a good stake to toss in Jasons direction. It's on some level making Jason face that people who contributed to his traumas are human and may even have held positive feelings for him. If we're correct that Artemis' past mission did kill Jason's biodad then theres a good chance Jason's going to be facing this internal conflict again. Will likely isn't getting forgiveness more than Jason is getting closure from this arc but it looks possible we may potentially be setting up to see the fallout of something Artemis did in the past that (unintentionally) hurts Jason now.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Oh man what if he's been granted with immortality o.o Farfetched i know but it would make for really interesting possibilities. Or maybe it comes back to the idea with his soul? That maybe it's different than normal people and it's been sent back constantly from death's doors for that reason. Would love to see if it has to do with Death the Endless >v <


There's a neat fic out there with exactly this premise and I believe a few crossovers for DC/Sandman exploring this as well. I really wouldn't be surprised if we get some discussions of immortality given Lobdells hints at soul business but man they're always so sad. As an older sib he's probably not going to handle watching the younger ones out-age him well.

----------


## EMarie

I find it funny because I remember a lot of people being mad at Willis being portrayed negatively in the #0 issue. This is giving Willis depth it's not saying he was perfect. He admits he's failed and the letters are supposed to let Jason know he was loved but he still had terrible parents. That's it because Willis doesn't know if he's going to make it out alive at this point.

With Bruce I think it's partly because Bruce is so bad at expressing himself with words and sometimes actions are the only thing Jason can use. At this point Jason doesn't even know how he feels about Willis. The conflict with Artemis will be brutal.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yea I meant Jason. That's interesting. Didn't catch the hints in the Future End issue. I'll go back and read it later.


He said things like, ordinary people don't know the "joy" of immortality. But framed in the context, it could be interpreted either figuratively or literally.

----------


## EMarie

There was also the bit where he said it took three days to recover from what Roy did and it looked like he shot Jason through his helmet. I think he also blew Jason's hoverbike up or Jason fell from a long distance.

----------


## G-Potion

> There was also the bit where he said it took three days to recover from what Roy did and it looked like he shot Jason through his helmet. I think he also blew Jason's hoverbike up or Jason fell from a long distance.


I thought it just grazed his helmet. But yeah the latter is true.

----------


## G-Potion

exploringthetimelab.blogspot.com raised a very good question. Is Jason's reaction that we see now exactly why Bizarro has been preventing him from knowing about the letters? Or is it something worse that Bizarro's afraid will happen? And why did he invite Creeper, who knows about Artemis's past, to the team?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> There was also the bit where he said it took three days to recover from what Roy did and it looked like he shot Jason through his helmet. I think he also blew Jason's hoverbike up or Jason fell from a long distance.


The bullet only grazed his helmet and falling from high heights is pretty much a common occurrence for comic book characters to be really meaningful.




> And why did he invite Creeper, who knows about Artemis's past, to the team?


How would Bizarro know about Artemis and Creeper's past in the first place?

----------


## G-Potion

> How would Bizarro know about Artemis and Creeper's past in the first place?


He probably doesn't. But that's a strange coincidence don't you think?

----------


## Rise

> exploringthetimelab.blogspot.com raised a very good question. Is Jason's reaction that we see now exactly why Bizarro has been preventing him from knowing about the letters? Or is it something worse that Bizarro's afraid will happen? And why did he invite Creeper, who knows about Artemis's past, to the team?


Well, Bizarro is protective of him and Jason is capable of creating a havoc on everyone when he is emotionally distressed so it could be the reason why he tried to keep them secret.

----------


## Aioros22

The Bizarro in question, that hid the letters and Ma is also the super intelligent Zarro who`s been hinted to know about Solitaire a good deal before any of them did. Not the lowest chance that he could know who that guy is and see the letters as a sort of manipulatin trought Ma to Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

This is so contrasting to the one with Bizzaro that Rise posted.






>

----------


## Zaresh

> This is so contrasting to the one with Bizzaro that Rise posted.


Both give me a sad feel and I don't know why I want to hug _something_ hard. I think it's Jason's face in both cases. Damn.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah both look like he has no fight left.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Both give me a sad feel and I don't know why I want to hug _something_ hard. I think it's Jason's face in both cases. Damn.


Yeah, me to. There's definitely gonna be a lot of feels with this arc. A whole lotta feels.

----------


## EMarie

New cover reveal.

After all these years will Jason finally break the case himself?

----------


## Rise

> This is so contrasting to the one with Bizzaro that Rise posted.





> New cover reveal.


Nice! I hope the issue lives up.

----------


## Zaresh

> New cover reveal.
> 
> After all these years will Jason finally break the case himself?


I wish.
Or at least obliterate that awful plate, if there is one (which now I realize I don't know if it even exist in the comics).

(Pretty cover btw)

----------


## Rise

I actually like the memorial case. It's become a big and important part of the bat cave.

----------


## Zaresh

> I actually like the memorial case. It's become a big and important part of the bat cave.


If it were me, I wouldn't like to be reminded that I died, not that way, every time I want to go visit the cave. But my worst offender is definitely the plate that I do remember from the animated movie. Awful text there. Pretty insensitive to the victim.

----------


## EMarie

> I wish.
> Or at least obliterate that awful plate, if there is one (which now I realize I don't know if it even exist in the comics).
> 
> (Pretty cover btw)


The good solider? I don't think it's appeared in years. I've never been a fan of the case. In UTH he kept it because "nothing has changed." He's never removed it even with Jason back with the family. Damian doesn't have a case kept up but Jason does? It sends a bad message.

----------


## Rise

Honestly, it's the fans who are making a big deal of it. The characters have no particular feelings about it nor it has a deeper meaning.

----------


## EMarie

We're "making a big deal of it" because in real life it'd be insulting to a kid you thought was dead. In comics Bruce keeps changing the reason he has it up. He told Damian it was to remind himself of his failure while Damian thought it was to honor Jason. If they have to keep changing the reason why bother? And really I've only seen fans comment on this not demanding it be removed.

----------


## Zaresh

> The good solider? I don't think it's appeared in years. I've never been a fan of the case. In UTH he kept it because "nothing has changed." He's never removed it even with Jason back with the family. Damian doesn't have a case kept up but Jason does? It sends a bad message.


Yeah, exactly. Specially for the victim at the case. Honestly, not a fan. I mean, it's there to remind Bruce of his second Robin and how he lost him and all that but, eh... Jason is alive, and there, and with issues regarding him dying; and it just doesn't feel like the right thing to display in a place he is likely to see. Now, if it were just a case for showing all the legacy, because legacy alone (same as why could be other cases, like Dick? There were other cases, right?), I'm fine with it. But not because of Jason dying, because he's not dead anymore and he deserves to go on with a life, and people should remember him as someone whose life continues. It's not like the event should be forgotten; it shouldn't, and it sure needs to be taken into account, be remembered; that Jason died as Robin, that the Joker killed him, etc. But not like that, to me, at least.

It's a very personal opinion.
But of course, Batman comics are about Batman strugglings, and so it makes sense that such thing would be in display in the cave, a very intimate place for him, even if supposedly it's visited by others.

In a meta level, the case is there to remind us of all of it, but still, when you see it in universe, it's a bit insensitive.

----------


## Rise

Well, comics aren't "real life". If they were, Batman would have been dead long time ago for the stunts he pull.

I didn't say fans demand for it to be removed (beside, it's only handfull of fans since the majority don't care nor even noticed), I said that fans are making a big deal by making it another reason for angst when the characters don't even care. It's there because it's important part of the cave. Nothing more, nothing less.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah, exactly. Specially for the victim at the case. Honestly, not a fan. I mean, it's there to remind Bruce of his second Robin and how he lost him and all that but, eh... Jason is alive, and there, and with issues regarding him dying; and it just doesn't feel like the right thing to display in a place he is likely to see. Now, if it were just a case for showing all the legacy, because legacy alone (same as why could be other cases, like Dick? There were other cases, right?), I'm fine with it. But not because of Jason dying, because he's not dead anymore and he deserves to go on with a life, and people should remember him as someone whose life continues. It's not like the event should be forgotten; it shouldn't, and it sure needs to be taken into account, be remembered; that Jason died as Robin, that the Joker killed him, etc. But not like that, to me, at least.
> 
> It's a very personal opinion.
> But of course, Batman comics are about Batman strugglings, and so it makes sense that such thing would be in display in the cave, a very intimate place for him, even if supposedly it's visited by others.
> 
> In a meta level, the case is there to remind us of all of it, but still, when you see it in universe, it's a bit insensitive.


If you want to take into account recent depictions of the Batcave, there's indeed a legacy display of sorts now. We know for sure Dick's Robin costume is displayed in a similar case as Jason's. Furthermore, there's no plate on it.

----------


## Zaresh

I've been told I overthink a lot. But I cannot not overthinking, apparently. Bear with my careness for minute, irrelevant details, please ( :Big Grin:  I'm not drunk or anything).

Great! Thank you, *@Dark_T*.

----------


## EMarie

> Well, comics aren't "real life". If they were, Batman would have been dead long time ago for the stunts he pull.
> 
> I didn't say fans demand for it to be removed (beside, it's only handfull of fans since the majority don't care nor even noticed), I said that fans are making a big deal by making it another reason for angst when the characters don't even care. It's there because it's important part of the cave. Nothing more, nothing less.


We still see Jason's PTSD so real life still comes into play. Making a big deal out of it for mentioning it in passing when there's only a few of us doing it? We'll mainly stating why we didn't like it and given his PSTD it seems odd.

The reason it hasn't been address is likely because it's part of the cave design. If Jason protested Bruce would either have to take it down or ignore him. Artists are going to still do it anyway. 

Some artists make it a legacy set which makes it less of an issue.

----------


## Aioros22

Yeah, the suit is now part of a sequential Robin`s legacy, not necessarily a memorial thing (excluding when it was supposed to be like in Jason and Damian`s case). 

The two of them busting throught the cave and over his suit is certainly symbolic and it works.

----------


## EMarie

I'm definitely glad I preordered this cover. It's beautiful.

----------


## Rise

And I don't say comics doesn't resemble real life at all. I'm just saying that particular case you mentioned doesn't have to be a big deal just because it might be offensive in real life. 

And you already said it, it's there because it become part of a legacy than Batman keeping it because he can't accept he is alive.

----------


## Rise

I actually wonder if Jason is going to have a new status quo after this issue. Maybe he will leave Gotham after it?

----------


## Aioros22

I think that`s likely, at least for awhile. 

And you still have the Solitaire thing if it gets addressed at this conclusion at all. And Artemis and the Creeper.

----------


## EMarie

> I think that`s likely, at least for awhile. 
> 
> And you still have the Solitaire thing if it gets addressed at this conclusion at all. And Artemis and the Creeper.


Do you think he's involved in the prison experiment?

I'd love an issue with the two of them interacting. I keep wondering if he figured out her connection to Luthor and hounded her.

----------


## G-Potion

That's a strong cover. I wonder if the memorial case is an artistic choice or the story really will address Jason's death/resurrection.

----------


## The Dying Detective

Admittedly I like that Lobdell drew some parallels between Jason and Willis they both are determined to do what what's right even if it meant breaking the law for the greater good and they appear to have the same taste in women. Though I don't know whether that was on purpose or not.

----------


## magpieM

I think those cover pages and solicitations are very misleading. They usually don't tell you what exactly will happen.

It is a great cover. I think the case here is implying their conflict is not about current problem (Batman is trying to stop RH from killing Penguin stuff). He's probably angry about what Batman did or something in the past during his Robin days.

----------


## EMarie

> Admittedly I like that Lobdell drew some parallels between Jason and Willis they both are determined to do what what's right even if it meant breaking the law for the greater good and they appear to have the same taste in women. Though I don't know whether that was on purpose or not.


The red headed thing was done in RHATO #0 before Artemis was around. Jason's liked other women like Isabel and Essence. The pony tail bit might have been accidental. But other than the same hair color and ponytail I don't think Catherine and Artemis are alike.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think those cover pages and solicitations are very misleading. They usually don't tell you what exactly will happen.
> 
> It is a great cover. I think the case here is implying their conflict is not about current problem (Batman is trying to stop RH from killing Penguin stuff). He's probably angry about what Batman did or something in the past during his Robin days.


Yeah it might not indicate anything storywise. The case just reminded me of what the tumblr source used to say, couple with the recent issue's theme concerning life and death.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The red headed thing was done in RHATO #0 before Artemis was around. Jason's liked other women like Isabel and Essence. The pony tail bit might have been accidental. But other than the same hair color and ponytail I don't think Catherine and Artemis are alike.


If there is one thing Catherine and Artemis have in common besides red hair and hairstyles. They are also pretty stubborn and determined women

----------


## EMarie

Unfortunately Catherine was stubborn about drinking and using while pregnant. I don't see her as nearly as determined as Artemis.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Unfortunately Catherine was stubborn about drinking and using while pregnant. I don't see her as nearly as determined as Artemis.


They were just very stubborn that's as far as the parallels go. Well Catherine was determined to stay with Willis even though he wanted her to not stay with him.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Unfortunately Catherine was stubborn about drinking and using while pregnant. I don't see her as nearly as determined as Artemis.



It's because of this I don't have the heart in me to look past both Willis and Catheine's actions for the sake of their good intentions. I just find them both extremely selfish and self-orientated people (Willis a little less so now but still to some degree) and even if they were trying to raise a son, I think ultimately they weren't going to ever compromise their lifestyle change for the sake of a child. I don't like it personally but it's very realistic.

----------


## G-Potion

http://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/174907708512

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

No cover yet but well




> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #26 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Jason Todd's about to take this vigilante game to a whole new level. His partners, Bizarro and Artemis? Gone! His mentor, Batman? Out! His base of operations, Gotham City? Abandoned. Cast out and alone, Red Hood embarks on a bold, brutal new mission, with a new costume, new weapons and a new plan to punish evildoers across the DCU.


http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori.../18/dcsept.htm

----------


## Aioros22

New costume and weapons? 

No way this could be anything close to what Soy was drawing in those comissions without him on board, would it?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No cover yet but well
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori.../18/dcsept.htm


So Jason's going it solo for a while but for how long though any hint by Lobdell?

----------


## Rise

Jason is going solo and he will have a new costume and weapons? I'm all here for this new bold direction!

And btw, does anyone who this new artist? Is he good?

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason is going solo and he will have a new costume and weapons? I'm all here for this new bold direction!
> 
> And btw, does anyone who this new artist? Is he good?


I googled him and I've look at some of his interiors; he has a neat style. It doesn't give a spontaneous feel, which is something I prefer, but it's good even if it feels too clean.

I expect this new turn to be temporal, probably for a short arc; or at least, I expect Jason to be alone for six issues at most.
It hurts me to see him isolated, but whatever; it may not be what it seems.

----------


## G-Potion

Since the book is still RHATO, he might pick up new/old allies along the way. But for now, yay for bold new direction!

----------


## G-Potion

But I'll be heartbroken if the reason for his separation from Artemis and Bizarro is because he feels betrayed.

----------


## thanatoskun

redhood26.jpg

Cover issue 26

----------


## G-Potion

> redhood26.jpg
> 
> Cover issue 26


Damn _that_ is the new weapon.... And no bat logo. I don't think I like the short sleeved shirt though.

----------


## Zaresh

> redhood26.jpg
> 
> Cover issue 26


Heh.
No guns.

Funny. I may like this change.
Maybe the stuff with Bruce IS a lot different from what it seems from here.

And the logo is a fox head. Of looks like one. Neat.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> redhood26.jpg
> 
> Cover issue 26


No guns now? And I guess we now know the outcome of the fight between Batman and Jason.

----------


## Rise

> redhood26.jpg
> 
> Cover issue 26


No bat logo, YES. 

And the new costume looks awesome.

----------


## G-Potion

> Heh.
> And the logo is a fox head. Of looks like one. Neat.


Oh I didn't realize at first. Fox. Nice play!

----------


## G-Potion

Him ditching guns seems to be a big change. But on the bright sight, now he can actually dish out real damage.

I need more look to judge the shirt, but really love the UTRH pants/boot combo coming back.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Him ditching guns seems to be a big change. But on the bright sight, now he can actually dish out real damage.
> 
> I need more look to judge the shirt, but really love the UTRH pants/boot combo coming back.


The hood kind of reminds me of Emiko Queen's hood though.

----------


## Zaresh

> Him ditching guns seems to be a big change. But on the bright sight, now he can actually dish out real damage.


He may even want to prove a point that way (not to mention that it helps in a metalevel, with him using guns without killing not being credible to some readers. As if you cannot beat someone to death easily *rollinhergeyes).
I'm genuinely intrigued.

----------


## okiedokiewo

Can't say I'm too thrilled with what I'm reading or seeing. I've just been considering dropping the book after the annual based on what we've heard of that issue and the one before, and my misgivings from that appear to be coming true. 

Glad to see other people are happy, so I won't harsh too much on the vibe.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm hoping the reason Jason is ditching the team (if not the other way around) because he knows that he's going down the dark path and doesn't want to drag anyone down with him. Taking Croc's advice to heart.

----------


## G-Potion

> Can't say I'm too thrilled with what I'm reading or seeing. I've just been considering dropping the book after the annual based on what we've heard of that issue and the one before, and my misgivings from that appear to be coming true. 
> 
> Glad to see other people are happy, so I won't harsh too much on the vibe.


Might I ask if the direction it's taking is what makes you consider dropping or it's the quality of the book itself?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is not a Fox's head, is supposed to be a skull.

----------


## G-Potion

> He may even want to prove a point that way (not to mention that it helps in a metalevel, with him using guns without killing not being credible to some readers. As if you cannot beat someone to death easily *rollinhergeyes).
> I'm genuinely intrigued.


The crowbar is 90% proving a point I say. 

You can totally beat someone to death, and it will looks bloody before it's done. Which I like. On the other hand, this direction seems to indicate a more lethal Red Hood but there's no guns so it also makes me scratching my head a bit.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is not a Fox's head, is supposed to be a skull.


That's what I thought at first. But I really think Zaresh's idea is cooler.

----------


## Zaresh

> Is not a Fox's head, is supposed to be a skull.


Maybe it's the angle of the t-shirt, but that doesn't look like how a stylized skull would be. I mean, I don't know. If you know better, I'll take your word, @Dark_T.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It looks like an angry emote.

----------


## G-Potion

That's even funnier. I approve.  :Cool:

----------


## Rise

I hope it's not a skull (and honestly, it doesn't look like a skull at all) because this will be a punisher rip off.

----------


## G-Potion

> I hope it's not a skull (and honestly, it doesn't look like a skull at all) because this will be a punisher rip off.


Exactly. And with the shirt, it will look even more similar.

----------


## Zaresh

> That's even funnier. I approve.


I don't see the emote either: it lacks some rounding up. But yeah, that could be awesome too, and way better than a skull. Skulls are overrated and there's the thing about being Punisher's logo, too, as you guys have already said.

Red Hood: the angry bird.

----------


## G-Potion

Looking at the bottom panel in the back, seems like there's some sort of design on the back of his jacket.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Attachment 67231
> 
> Cover issue 26


Woo I love this new look a lot  :Big Grin:  The hooded jacket is one of my favorite designs explored for the character. I'm sad tho that the bat symbol is gone, hope this doesn't mean that he's permanently estranged from the Batfamily ;-; But I like the idea that he's going to be working out of Gotham. Wonder if this means we get a lot of crossovers with other cities or whether this one is a new one. I don't know how I feel about the crowbar though. I mean, it's definitely better than the guns in terms of a design choice but idk about how it fits in with the current character development to have to make him completely ruthless to the point of beating someone to death.

Edit: I heard rumors before from 4chan that he was getting his own solo issues for a while and it looks to be true now. He said that this direction would be a temporary one to see how people take to a solo Red Hood story but if it isn't working out then they would bring back Artemis and Bizzaro again.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

34717586_540465813021939_8271430030760869888_n.jpg

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkHMK2sD...death_star_soy

----------


## Aioros22

Zeus, did he used some 3d edition for all that? That perspective is on _point._ But then I remind myself he didn`t do last issue, so yeah. 

Anyhow!





The logo looks similar but overall the look is cool. It brings forth the RHAA hood and a Waid street ninja Daredevil-esque asthetic with a crowbar to boot. Jason using the crowbar as his signature weapon in this arc is supposed to ilustrate how his descending to the spiral will be deeper than he`s ever had under Loedbell for all the obvious reasons, the disbanding of the team, finding out about his father, the fight for keeps with Bruce, in fact it looks basically the culmination of Future`s End. For now.

----------


## kiwiliko

Happy Father's day: https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/

----------


## KrustyKid

> Happy Father's day: https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/


Lol, savage

----------


## DIVINITY

I’ve wanted some solo adventures for awhile now, but I’m not sold on the new look just yet...

----------


## Alycat

Ugh I dunno about these changes. Pls don't be terrible edgy nonsense.

----------


## G-Potion

> He said that this direction would be a temporary one to see how people take to a solo Red Hood story but if it isn't working out then they would bring back Artemis and Bizzaro again.


I haven't seen this rumor but I have the same feelings this is what DC is doing.   That said, hint of the team disbanding was dropped at early at around the crossover issues with the suicide squad.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ugh I dunno about these changes. Pls don't be terrible edgy nonsense.


I don't think edgy nonsense is a thing to be worried about as long as Lobdell is still handling the character. Not his style, and surely not on a character that he's given development to for 5 years or so.

----------


## Alycat

> I don't think edgy nonsense is a thing to be worried about as long as Lobdell is still handling the character. Not his style, and surely not on a character that he's given development to for 5 years or so.


I hope so. As I've said many times before Lobdell went from one of my least favorite writers to one of my favorites with the current Outlaws. I felt like it had a sweet spot and such major changes concern me.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I don't think edgy nonsense is a thing to be worried about as long as Lobdell is still handling the character. Not his style, and surely not on a character that he's given development to for 5 years or so.


It really feels like Lobdell is putting his best effort into this but I can't help but worry about edgy nonsense too. We can't account for how much is Lobdell's call and how much is because DC needs this to go a certain direction.

The stronger points of UTRH Jason's arguments about killing is that Jason valued the end result but doesn't actually take pleasure in causing death. A change to crowbar, a blunt but close range weapon, says killing is personal now but also the suffering will be drawn out, he's even covered in blood and it's not necessary if a simple kill was his goal. This would really weaken the idea that Jason stands by his own morals because he feels they will help other people's lives if all it takes to change those morals is a fight with dad. It looks like Bruce walks out of the fight ready to return to his large family + friends and get married while Jason walks out friendless, homeless and no family. 

I'm still waiting for the drop to really see where it's going but I do understand that inkling that maybe (for someone who isn't Lobdell) this is a chance for the UTRH fight to be hashed out again except we just need to make sure the audience doesn't try to sympathize with Jason's stance like last time.

----------


## Rise

Well, Lobdell said in his latest interview that he wanted and was planning for Jason to go darker for quite sometimes and it was finally approved by the editors. So, I don't think it was forced upon him since he was setting up for this direction for a while.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Well, Lobdell said in his latest interview that he wanted and was planning for Jason to go darker for quite sometimes and it was finally approved by the editors. So, I don't think it was forced upon him since he was setting up for this direction for a while.


Fair enough, in that case I guess how I read Jason just won't be matching up with how he reads Jason.

I'm still a little disappointed that wasn't a fox or wolf head. Would've made the name Red Hood more fun.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Must have been some fight he had with Batman. I'm with Alycat on this one in that I really hope Lobdell doesn't go back to the edgy nonsense of the Pre-FP era. While I'm going to give this a chance because it's Lobdell I already don't like the costume and his new weapon. A crowbar?! That's pretty asinine if you ask me seeing as how Joker beat him nearly to death with one. I honestly think that his deciding to use a crowbar for a weapon might be a sign that his mind has snapped again thus  the whole 'Jason going darker ' idea.

----------


## Slim Shady

This looks really good. Seems to be a nice jumping on point for me.

Lobdell's pretty good these days?

----------


## G-Potion

> It really feels like Lobdell is putting his best effort into this but I can't help but worry about edgy nonsense too. We can't account for how much is Lobdell's call and how much is because DC needs this to go a certain direction.
> 
> The stronger points of UTRH Jason's arguments about killing is that Jason valued the end result but doesn't actually take pleasure in causing death. A change to crowbar, a blunt but close range weapon, says killing is personal now but also the suffering will be drawn out, he's even covered in blood and it's not necessary if a simple kill was his goal. This would really weaken the idea that Jason stands by his own morals because he feels they will help other people's lives if all it takes to change those morals is a fight with dad. It looks like Bruce walks out of the fight ready to return to his large family + friends and get married while Jason walks out friendless, homeless and no family. 
> 
> I'm still waiting for the drop to really see where it's going but I do understand that inkling that maybe (for someone who isn't Lobdell) this is a chance for the UTRH fight to be hashed out again except we just need to make sure the audience doesn't try to sympathize with Jason's stance like last time.


Regarding the crowbar as a weapon of choice, I'm reserving my judgement for now. I'm not fond of it, especially if it's the replacement for his guns as a lethal option. But, it's also too obvious a symbolic object that I largely believe has to mean something else, other than to draw out the pain (maybe what Aioros said).

As for Jason's commitment to his stance on his own code, as the hints were dropping about him going to break the promise, at the time I already had half a mind believing that this might not be for a noble cause but for his own revenge. I don't know how it all will lead to Jason taking up the crowbar to dish out more brutal justice but we know so little for now to really say. What I know though is that Lobdell has worked around editorial mandates gracefully before so he won't just suddenly undo his hard work on the character; the hints that Jason going dark and team disbanding were dropped since around the SS crossovers; his interview did say things were going to be much worse for everyone, and he agreed that Jason should be darker and more violent. 

So I really, really hope Lobdell is still in control and this is still what he's been planning to do.

Also we get to experience for the first time what a solo book for Red Hood looks like. I'll stay positive... for now.

----------


## G-Potion

> This looks really good. Seems to be a nice jumping on point for me.
> 
> Lobdell's pretty good these days?


He's always pretty good. But editorial mandate can diminish a lot of that goodness as it did with N52 RHATO and RH/A. So jury's still out on this new direction I guess. I have a bit of worry, but mostly I'm excited.

----------


## Rise

I think it's a premature to assume that Jason is going to be friendless and without a family if he stayed solo when not even Deathstroke is friendless and doesn't have a family.

I think it's good for Jason to have some solo stories because he literally has none besides the RH: LY mini and AK mini which was elsewhere.

And I'm not worried about the new direction because Roy showed up in the annual and Lobdell said that he views Jason and Bruce relationship as one step forward and two steps back, but they can never walk out on each others which how I personally see it myself.

----------


## BloodOps

yikes not a fan of that costume

----------


## magpieM

> I think it's a premature to assume that Jason is going to be friendless and without a family if he stayed solo when not even Deathstroke is friendless and doesn't have a family.
> 
> I think it's good for Jason to have some solo stories because he literally has none besides the RH: LY mini and AK mini which was elsewhere.
> 
> And I'm not worried about the new direction because Roy showed up in the annual and Lobdell said that he views Jason and Bruce relationship as one step forward and two steps back, but they can never walk out on each others which how I personally see it myself.


Well Deathstroke is not alone because he had been in army, got ranks and associates, married and had children _before_ he became a full-time Deathstroke. And speaking of Roy, I thought his company in the Annual can help Jason calm down a lot. But it seems that something is really going to be f**ked up to make Jason have such a dramatic change

----------


## Rise

> yikes not a fan of that costume


So, your first statement in Red Hood appreciation is "yikes". I hope we get more productive statements from you in the future.




> Well Deathstroke is not alone because he had been in army, got ranks and associates, married and had children _before_ he became a full-time Deathstroke. And speaking of Roy, I thought his company in the Annual can help Jason calm down a lot. But it seems that something is really going to be f**ked up to make Jason have such a dramatic change


And like how they built a vilain who was just a punching bag for bunch of teengers, I don't think it will be too hard to build for Jason his own supporting cast and he already has family in Batman and Alfred even if they become angry at each others for a while.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm still waiting for the drop to really see where it's going but I do understand that inkling that maybe (for someone who isn't Lobdell) this is a chance for the UTRH fight to be hashed out again except we just need to make sure the audience doesn't try to sympathize with Jason's stance like last time.


I'm actually less worried about this considering all this time we've been treated with 23 issues worth of material that makes us sympathize with Jason in the first place. When the revelations with Willis, or whatever makes Jason fly off the handle, are fully realized, I think it's already sufficient for the readers to understand where he comes from when the Bat fight takes place. Even if it turns out he's killing to get revenge, it would still be sympathetic.

----------


## G-Potion

Ah well, the negativity is pouring in. Time to stay away from tumblr again.

----------


## Zaresh

That he's going down the rabbit hole, is something I think it's clear. And it sure is going to have a lot to do with the previous issues. Even overly hyperbolic (as always), the summary for the solicit makes it clear that he feels isolated, alone, and hurt. He holds a crowbar in the cover, but you can also see using knuckles (an awfully dirty weapon, if you ask me) and his gloved fists in the pictures behind him. So I take it the cover is overdramatic and he doesn't just use a crowbar, but just switch to hand-to-hand combat. And I can picture him being bitter enough to show how such combat style can be as damaging as guns.

I mean, in N52 Jason wasn't killing people because he enjoyed it. And that was Lobdell's writing. I have a hard time believing he would change his take on Jason's behaviour that much so suddently; but again, a switch to brutal hand-to-hand combat can be worked and explained by him trying to prove something. It's basically what he did in Under the Hood, and that Jason was, too, in a very bad place.

I'm even expecting Jason to be wrong in his reasoning, and prove wrong in the end. Because that's how you write an interesting character; when he's flawed and you work the story to "improve" him. Well, er... At least, that's a reason I get interested in some stories, hum.

I'm terrified, but also excited. Again. There has to be a word for that kind of feeling. The same as there has to be a word for feeling awful for your enjoyment, that's also what I'll probably get from this book if it all goes as I think it will. Heh.

----------


## magpieM

As for the costume, I'm OK if the artist doesn't put lips on his helmet

----------


## G-Potion

> As for the costume, I'm OK if the artist doesn't put lips on his helmet


I think (hope) DC already got it that nobody wants them on the helmet ever.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm actually less worried about this considering all this time we've been treated with 23 issues worth of material that makes us sympathize with Jason in the first place. When the revelations with Willis, or whatever makes Jason fly off the handle, are fully realized, I think it's already sufficient for the readers to understand where he comes from when the Bat fight takes place. Even if it turns out he's killing to get revenge, it would still be sympathetic.


I agree with you. Lobdell has done a lot of build up here so when Jason flies off the handle this time it will have a ton of emotional impact at least. Having said that though I'm still not comfortable with this direction because it was bungled so badly before the N52. Like I said I'm willing to see where this goes but only because of Lobdell's continued involvement and because it was apparently his idea and not some editorial edict.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm even expecting Jason to be wrong in his reasoning, and prove wrong in the end. Because that's how you write an interesting character; when he's flawed and you work the story to "improve" him. Well, er... At least, that's a reason I get interested in some stories, hum.


I agree with this so much.

----------


## Alycat

You guys are jinxing it. There will be a mouth on the Hood now. Also, hope were not losing Dexter Soy for the book.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm still a little disappointed that wasn't a fox or wolf head. Would've made the name Red Hood more fun.


Guys stop, I'm getting increasingly bummed with the inferior choice to these two.  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> You guys are jinxing it. There will be a mouth on the Hood now. Also, hope were not losing Dexter Soy for the book.


There will be a riot I promise.

----------


## Zaresh

> You guys are jinxing it. There will be a mouth on the Hood now. Also, hope were not losing Dexter Soy for the book.


Cover is from Woods too, right? On one hand, the mask seems to lack mouth; on the other hand, it seems to be a mask with... dots? at the sides, like certain other Jason's mask, kind of. I hope it's not the case: I don't like the idea of a Friday the 13th-like mask; on a third mutated hand nobody expected, it would make the new design be so 80's and it could be charming and appealing to my most dark instincts, that I would end loving it against all odds, probably.

----------


## Rise

> I agree with you. Lobdell has done a lot of build up here so when Jason flies off the handle this time it will have a ton of emotional impact at least. Having said that though I'm still not comfortable with this direction because it was bungled so badly before the N52. Like I said I'm willing to see where this goes but only because of Lobdell's continued involvement and because it was apparently his idea and not some editorial edict.


Pre-flashpoint Jason didn't have a book and was used as antagonist for the batfamily. I would like to think that DC isn't dumb enough to go back to that when it was badly received and Didio himself saying that they got angry letters from fans who were upest about it. 

We are still missing issue 24, 25 and the annual which they are crucial for us to understand what lead Jason to the place he is in issue 26. If Lobdell is planning something and the pay off is worth it, then good for us. If not, we got four volumes from this run that are really great.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.

No lips on the helmet
Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
That is not any crowbar, is _the_ crowbar.

----------


## G-Potion

Now would be a good time for Lobdell to give another interview. I see excitement and panic everywhere.

----------


## G-Potion

> Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.
> 
> No lips on the helmet
> Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
> That is not any crowbar, is _the_ crowbar.


Wha... wonder where he got it.

----------


## G-Potion

Also Dark if possible, could you disclose whether this is what Lobdell has planned all along or it's from higher-ups?

----------


## Zaresh

> Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.
> 
> No lips on the helmet
> Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
> *That is not any crowbar, is the crowbar*.


OH. Oh, ho ho.
Mother. Of. God.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I'm even expecting Jason to be wrong in his reasoning, and prove wrong in the end. Because that's how you write an interesting character; when he's flawed and you work the story to "improve" him. Well, er... At least, that's a reason I get interested in some stories, hum.
> 
> I'm terrified, but also excited. Again. There has to be a word for that kind of feeling. The same as there has to be a word for feeling awful for your enjoyment, that's also what I'll probably get from this book if it all goes as I think it will. Heh.


Yusss, good flaws pretty much describe everything about why I like a thing. I think I get wary when Jason is put next to Bruce. I'm here and ready to see Jason be proven wrong through his own story although I don't want Jason's developments to be one used to prop up Bruce's story.

----------


## Rise

> Now would be a good time for Lobdell to give another interview. I see excitement and panic everywhere.


They should have given us an interview like they did with Batgirl, Titans and Supergirl who got a new direction. But oh well, it's DC and they never disappoint me with their incompetence (Though, I want you to surprise me DC and give us interview).

----------


## kiwiliko

> Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.
> 
> No lips on the helmet
> Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
> That is not any crowbar, is _the_ crowbar.


Well DANG. This bomb is going to drop harder than the one that killed Jason.

----------


## Aioros22

> Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.
> 
> No lips on the helmet
> Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
> That is not any crowbar, is _the_ crowbar.


Ooooh the sauce is getting interesting. Will Jason break in whoever bought it on auction?

----------


## Aioros22

And really, no lips on any of his helmets is a must. Just because Rocafort`s linework somehow makes it pallatable amist all his wonderful detail doesn`t mean everyone else would. And often, they don`t.

----------


## BloodOps

> So, your first statement in Red Hood appreciation is "yikes". I hope we get more productive statements from you in the future.


This was the only topic that had a post about Jason's new costume, so I made a comment on it, you could of easily ignored it.

This is a message board about comics, do me a favor and lighten up a bit and don't give me that "productive statements" garbage.

----------


## Rise

Tell me to light up and then say this "don't give me that "productive statements" garbage" right after. I hope you notice the irony.

----------


## Arsenal

Unless I'm missing something, we really haven't seen enough of Jason's new costume to make any solid judgements about it.





> Ooooh the sauce is getting interesting. Will Jason break in whoever bought it on auction?


Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up acquiring it from Bruce.

----------


## magpieM

It just occurred to me that what will happen to the suit guy 'Solitary'? Will he show up again to stop the Outlaws from falling apart? Is he just a temporary character tied to the idea of Dark Trinity, or a long-term one that will continue to make waves even when Jason works alone?

----------


## G-Potion

> It just occurred to me that what will happen to the suit guy 'Solitary'? Will he show up again to stop the Outlaws from falling apart? Is he just a temporary character tied to the idea of Dark Trinity, or a long-term one that will continue to make waves even when Jason works alone?


That's a good point. I'd love him to stick around as part of Jason's rogue gallery. He's got that unsettling vibe which I dig.

----------


## Zaresh

> It just occurred to me that what will happen to the suit guy 'Solitary'? Will he show up again to stop the Outlaws from falling apart? Is he just a temporary character tied to the idea of Dark Trinity, or a long-term one that will continue to make waves even when Jason works alone?


I, too, thought about it. It could be that Solitary's reason to bring them together was to break them, putting Artemis' past  under the light and breaking Jason. But I doubt it's that. And I think that plot line is going to end after issue #25; feels like a really long term plot for me. Maybe even the new arc has something to do with it. Could last even after that.

(I can't sleep. Stupid addiction to reading)

----------


## magpieM

> That's a good point. I'd love him to stick around as part of Jason's rogue gallery. He's got that unsettling vibe which I dig.


I hope he'd stay, too. He's such a 'powerful' character, behaving like a 'Schrödinger's cat'.




> I, too, thought about it. It could be that Solitary's reason to bring them together was to break them, putting Artemis' past  under the light and breaking Jason. But I doubt it's that. And I think that plot line is going to end after issue #25; feels like a really long term plot for me. Maybe even the new arc has something to do with it. Could last even after that.
> 
> (I can't sleep. Stupid addiction to reading)


wow that would be really dark! I wonder whose side is he on. When he was sitting in the waiting room with Artemis, it didn't seem like he was against her. 

There must be tons of things going on before the new direction.  :Big Grin:  I'm so happy that my previous complaints about the slow plot went trash!

----------


## Zaresh

Oops, I meant to say "And I think that plot line isn't going to end after issue #25". I know it's cleared by the following sentences, but just in case. I really need to sleep.

As I said, I doubt it's something so contrived. But it's a possibility, nevertheless.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Since the cat's out of the bag, I guess I can tell you guys a bit more.
> 
> No lips on the helmet
> Things might change but at the very least the entire arc will be drawn by Woods
> *That is not any crowbar, is the crowbar.*


Oh Sweet Jesus! WTF! Okay now I'm not so sure this isn't some kind of editorial edict. Sounds like the edgy, dark shit that was so prevalent in the N52 and now that Johns is out and Lee is in... Not sure if I'll hang around after one issue now.

An interview from Lobdell would be useful right about now to clarify some stuff. It might make a difference in how I feel about this.

----------


## G-Potion

I personally think it doesn't sound any edgier than if it were a normal crowbar. In fact it will even better explain why he chooses to use it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I personally think it doesn't sound any edgier than if it were a normal crowbar. In fact it will even better explain why he chooses to use it.


It would be impressive if that crowbar was the Joker's though it's rather twisted. Anyone think Bizarro and Artemis are gone for good?

----------


## Korath

I really like this new look, and symbol. Not that Rebirth look had been bad, but this one really gives off the vibe that no barrel will be held. I'm a little sad to see Jason go at it solo, for the moment, but if it could end giving us a solo book and RHATO down the line, I'm okay with it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh Sweet Jesus! WTF! Okay now I'm not so sure this isn't some kind of editorial edict. Sounds like the edgy, dark shit that was so prevalent in the N52 and now that Johns is out and Lee is in... Not sure if I'll hang around after one issue now.
> 
> An interview from Lobdell would be useful right about now to clarify some stuff. It might make a difference in how I feel about this.


It sounds a Loedbell idea (psycologically dark) and not an edict. I don`t see the powers that be being concerned about which crowbar it has to be.

----------


## G-Potion

> It would be impressive if that crowbar was the Joker's though it's rather twisted. Anyone think Bizarro and Artemis are gone for good?


If this is indeed DC testing the water for a solo book, then whether Artemis and Bizarro come back or not depends on how well this arc is received I guess.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If this is indeed DC testing the water for a solo book, then whether Artemis and Bizarro come back or not depends on how well this arc is received I guess.


But solo books need supporting characters otherwise it might as well be empty space except for two characters the protagonist and the villain.

----------


## G-Potion

> But solo books need supporting characters otherwise it might as well be empty space except for two characters the protagonist and the villain.


Of course, there's nothing indicating that a solo Red Hood will lack supporting characters just because Artemis and Bizarro aren't there. In a way it might be even easier to build a support cast with a solo book seeing as there's less pressure on space management to make sure the main characters have enough screen time.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Of course, there's nothing indicating that a solo Red Hood will lack supporting characters just because Artemis and Bizarro aren't there. In a way it might be even easier to build a support cast with a solo book seeing as there's less pressure on space management to make sure the main characters have enough screen time.


Yes that's tru and want to bet Faye Gunn Jr and Ma Gunn will be one of them?

----------


## G-Potion

> Yes that's tru and want to bet Faye Gunn Jr and Ma Gunn will be one of them?


Not sure since it sounds like he will be away from Gotham.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Not sure since it sounds like he will be away from Gotham.


I guess even Jason despite his primary goal wanting to protect Gotham wants to step it up but what can motivate him to leave Gotham to take his war on crime somewhere else though apart from the tragic end of his and Batman's good relations?

----------


## G-Potion

> I guess even Jason despite his primary goal wanting to protect Gotham wants to step it up but what can motivate him to leave Gotham to take his war on crime somewhere else though apart from the tragic end of his and Batman's good relations?


It's likely that he's forced to get out of Gotham by Batman. He possibly will lose the fight after all.

----------


## RedBird

> Attachment 67231
> 
> Cover issue 26


Everything about this new 'look' screams temporary to me. 

BUT. If I'm wrong and it isn't, then, ugh. If this isn't just a phase and Jasons new look and shtick for this dark arc and 'low point' in his vigilante life, then its honestly just proving the 'RH is just discount punisher' crowd right, cause oh boy, does it look try hard edgy. 

Though as worried as I am for the future status quo of the character (seriously I was loving rhato just fine, why this? Why now?[1]) I'm trusting Lobdell won't throw years of development and characterization out the window.

[1]Just in case someone mentioned it. Yes, I definitely was excited for Jason to go down a darker more morally ambiguous path and to at least stay behind his own morals where upon he used lethal force if necessary but (and granted these arguments may become mute point when the issue is out but it is my impression going by the solicits descriptions and images) not at the expense of losing the development he had with friends/family and his previous characterizations whereupon lethal force with a gun was used as quick, generally painless and impersonal way of dealing with criminals because the end goal was always to simply end their life so they couldn't continue hurting others, as opposed to purposely making them suffer through drawn out beatings with a heavy blunt object. SIGH. Yeah, with what I'm seeing so far, I hope this is temporary.

On the plus side, the art certainly looks nice.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I personally think it doesn't sound any edgier than if it were a normal crowbar. In fact it will even better explain why he chooses to use it.


I was talking about the entire concept here not just the crowbar. It sounds exactly like the edgy, dark stuff that was prevalent in the Bat books during the N52 to me and even more so it sounds like that edgy nonsense from before the reboot. I know Jason didn't have a book back then but this sounds perilously close to being retread of that era and frankly I'm not down for a return of insane/off his rocker Jason at all. Got tired of that one years ago. If its just a temporary thing then that's fine but I really don't want to see him take that path again in any kind of permanent way is all. 




> It sounds a Loedbell idea (psycologically dark) and not an edict. I don`t see the powers that be being concerned about which crowbar it has to be.


After years of watching the things that catch the powers that be's attention no longer surprise me. After all the powers that be thought it was a good idea to have a phone poll to kill off Robin. (And yes I do know that was another group of people that were involved in that.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It's likely that he's forced to get out of Gotham by Batman. He possibly will lose the fight after all.


That's probably the case the only way Jason can go back to Gotham is if he and Batman make up somehow.

----------


## G-Potion

> That's probably the case the only way Jason can go back to Gotham is if he and Batman make up somehow.


They will eventually (and probably fight again sometime later). The push and pull drama between them is too good to settle for just one way.

----------


## REAL

I remember wishing so hard for Red Hood solo when Rebirth relaunch was announced and I don't know how to feel now that we are getting a one after I warmed up to the Dark Trinity.

First, Jason snapping this hard over the letters seem a bit of overreaction from him to go chasing the criminals with a crowbar (or _the_ crowbar). Second, it seem unbelievable for Jason to go after random thugs when his father was a random thug and he now know the reason for why his father walked this path. Third, you telling me that neither Artemis, Biz, Batman or Roy were able to talk sense into him at all and just let him be? Fourth, the premise seem more fitting for Black Label and if they want to test fans reaction, why not make an elsewhere story instead?Fifth, I really liked the old costume, but the new look good and fit the tone (it's really not worth the 'yikes' reaction that for sure). Last, the solicit could be misleading and we really need for Lobdell to speak up and explain what's up with this.

I can't deny that I'm interested and this direction was able to attract attention from some people. So, I'm going to reserve my judgement until I see the final result. Also, *Rise*, you traitor. You have been posting here the whole time and you didn't tell me? What happened to "Jun and Jan"?

----------


## G-Potion

Oh hey look who's back.  :Big Grin:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They will eventually (and probably fight again sometime later). The push and pull drama between them is too good to settle for just one way.


The push and pull drama is fine by me. I just wish they wouldn't make it appear like Jason is having a overgrown child's tantrum (always involving some sort of killing spree) every time he has some kind of emotional breakdown of his father issues is all. This feels like Jason is screaming out for vindication and trying to validate his point over view all over again. Just once I'd like to see them try something different with him when he has one of these emotional breakdowns. I don't think that's to much to ask.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> They will eventually (and probably fight again sometime later). The push and pull drama between them is too good to settle for just one way.


I'll say it will but Batman will have a hard time dealing with this when he breaks the new to the rest of the family that he essentially exiled Jason and then welcomed him back.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well is not the just the letters what prompted the change, those are just the start of a chain of events that lead to the change.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well is not the just the letters what prompted the change, those are just the start of a chain of events that lead to the change.


That much is obvious I think. Feel like there's too much panic based on assumption at the moment.

----------


## G-Potion

> The push and pull drama is fine by me. I just wish they wouldn't make it appear like Jason is having a overgrown child's tantrum (always involving some sort of killing spree) every time he has some kind of emotional breakdown of his father issues is all. This feels like Jason is screaming out for vindication and trying to validate his point over view all over again. Just once I'd like to see them try something different with him when he has one of these emotional breakdowns. I don't think that's to much to ask.


To be fair, between them Batman was more often made to look like an asshole than Jason.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> It's likely that he's forced to get out of Gotham by Batman. He possibly will lose the fight after all.


I think it's been clear from the beginning that he loses.

----------


## REAL

> Oh hey look who's back.


Good to see you still around. It seems we have few new faces now.

And I'm just back for short while.




> Well is not the just the letters what prompted the change, those are just the start of a chain of events that lead to the change.


Interesting, but like what? Bizarro keeping secrets and Artemis possibly killing his father?

----------


## G-Potion

> I think it's been clear from the beginning that he loses.


Ah well, still hold out hope that he gives as good as he gets.

----------


## Zaresh

> Good to see you still around. It seems we have few new faces now.
> 
> And I'm just back for short while.
> ...
> Interesting, but like what? Bizarro keeping secrets and Artemis possibly killing his father?


There were some rumours in 4chan these past weeks that, if right, would be... cruel. Like, you cannot be this cruel and unfair to your characters unless you're George RR Martin and said character is in A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones so to speak).

If they turn out to be true, well, I hope it's all really well written. But somehow, I find some of them really unbelievable.

(Oh, The Shadow! So cool!)

----------


## Aioros22

> I remember wishing so hard for Red Hood solo when Rebirth relaunch was announced and I don't know how to feel now that we are getting a one after I warmed up to the Dark Trinity.
> 
> First, Jason snapping this hard over the letters seem a bit of overreaction from him to go chasing the criminals with a crowbar (or _the_ crowbar). Second, it seem unbelievable for Jason to go after random thugs when his father was a random thug and he now know the reason for why his father walked this path. Third, you telling me that neither Artemis, Biz, Batman or Roy were able to talk sense into him at all and just let him be? Fourth, the premise seem more fitting for Black Label and if they want to test fans reaction, why not make an elsewhere story instead?Fifth, I really liked the old costume, but the new look good and fit the tone (it's really not worth the 'yikes' reaction that for sure). Last, the solicit could be misleading and we really need for Lobdell to speak up and explain what's up with this.
> 
> I can't deny that I'm interested and this direction was able to attract attention from some people. So, I'm going to reserve my judgement until I see the final result. Also, *Rise*, you traitor. You have been posting here the whole time and you didn't tell me? What happened to "Jun and Jan"?


This direction is after the conclusion of the current arc (not sure if of all plot hooks but at the least the ones pertaining Jason) that will culminate into a no-holds barrell between him and Batman in Gotham.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Anyone going to SDCC here?

DgFFd-nUwAAVzVI.jpg

----------


## Zaresh

> Anyone going to SDCC here?
> 
> DgFFd-nUwAAVzVI.jpg


Does anyone know when are these released? Because I was dying for a Red Hood funko already, and my Bday is soon. But I live in Europe, sooo...

Edited: nevermind. So it's an exclusive. Not fair, I don't even live in the same continent!

----------


## Aahz

I would really like to see a better better image of the new costume than the cover, can't they publish some concept art like they did for Barabaras new costume.

----------


## Aioros22

Dang, was about to post it.



Anyhow, here`s Funk with the package. Now, it`s a matter of time waiting for Halloween for the Hood and crowbar edition  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Black_Adam

His new costume looks like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat lol don't mess with the leather jacket it's iconic for him now!

----------


## Rise

> Oh hey look who's back.


He isn't back. He just lost a dare with someone like usual.

Btw, I reread this interview and this made me a little less worried about the new direction.




> SL: I agree to an extent that he should be more violentmore on that in a moment.
> 
> But I dont think he should be the Punisher, because there is already a Punisher. Just like I dont think there should be x amount of people in the Iron Man armor, or x amount of people running around with power rings. I just think every character should be unique, and that maybe weve lost a lot of that over the years in the industrys effort to evolve.
> 
> I always got the impression that the Punisher might track down a crime lord and make his way through three dozen bodyguards in the crime lords mansionkilling every one of themand then the crime lord himself.
> 
> I think Jason should only kill when he doesnt have other options. I think he should probably only kill when his life (or that of another person) is in imminent danger.
> 
> When the series started, I understood they wanted to instill a No Killing In Gotham City Rule.  But when we got to Qurac, I had him killing terrorists and soldiers who were trying to kill him.  I got a note: he cant kill, remember?  I was like, hes in the middle of a war! The note came back: doesnt matter. He promised. Honestly, I was a little embarrassed: part of putting him in the middle of the war was so that I thought I could write a sort of Jason Unbound! So now I have him in the middle of a war and he cant shoot any one. Sigh.
> ...

----------


## Killerbee911

I just came across that new costume and wow it is pretty bad.This is the second bat character who design they had right and now the new design is worse. I am happy when characters like this who have tie another character more distinctly move away from the main character but Red Hood just need a new logo and maybe tweak of a color here and there on the costume. He had one of the best costumes in comics already imo. I hope this doesn't last

----------


## Rise

I think it's unfair to judge it before we even saw a more clear picture of it.

I remember some also said Jason's rebirth costume look bad before we saw it in action. Just be patient.

----------


## G-Potion

@Rise: Yeah making Red Hood darker is from editorial mandate but it's obviously what Lobdell wanted to do in the first place with the Quarac plot and couldn't because of them. 

I feel Jason's new costume would look very good in action.

----------


## thebluefeline

The only thing i dont like about the new look is taking away the bat symbol. I liked that it tied him closer with Batman. That he could be the person who would be willing to do what Batman won't (not afraid to draw blood), hence the red color of the bat.

----------


## G-Potion

> The only thing i dont like about the new look is taking away the bat symbol. I liked that it tied him closer with Batman. That he could be the person who would be willing to do what Batman won't (not afraid to draw blood), hence the red color of the bat.


I think the bat logo character-wise only makes sense when Jason wears it to mock Batman. Other than that, I think he would want be his own person. "Doing what Batman won't" implies an obsession and a certain negative feeling, maybe pettiness? that gets in the way of his maturing as a person.

----------


## Aioros22

> He isn't back. He just lost a dare with someone like usual.
> 
> Btw, I reread this interview and this made me a little less worried about the new direction.


It`s a weird mix of timing. Editorial seems to mandate the grittier thing but when the writer wanted grittier as per the situation they said no. Hopefully, Loedbell isn`t against it because we had some of those moments alluded in the book before for it to be a departure. Lukily this could be an excellent opportunity to show how the character is not the Punisher and vis a vis.

----------


## G-Potion

> It`s a weird mix of timing. Editorial seems to mandate the grittier thing but when the writer wanted grittier as per the situation they said no. Hopefully, Loedbell isn`t against it because we had some of those moments alluded in the book before for it to be a departure. Lukily this could be an excellent opportunity to show how the character is not the Punisher and vis a vis.


I think editorial as one point, past the Quarac arc, took note of what fans wanted and changed their mind about the tone of the book. Lobdell might've as well said I told you so.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I think the bat logo character-wise only makes sense when Jason wears it to mock Batman. Other than that, I think he would want be his own person. "Doing what Batman won't" implies an obsession and a certain negative feeling, maybe pettiness? that gets in the way of his maturing as a person.


But that was the whole reason he made up the Red Hood persona in the first place though. Otherwise he would've just gone back to Bruce without forming it if Bruce had just killed the Joker. He wouldn't even be the Red Hood either. His whole identity literally lives of the Joker and Batman which is why I liked the Bat symbol. It completed the dynamic between the 3 characters pretty well. Without the Joker and Batman, there's not really a reason for someone like the Red Hood to exist. No reason to protect innocents with lethal force if Batman just does the job for him. Imo, he truly shines when he exists to be the anti-thesis of Batman. I just believe that's what cements his place in the Batman universe. He's unique in that regard.

I also don't really think it's immature of him to think in that way. He's honestly still got all of Batman's teachings and his need to protect innocents, but the difference in the methods is what separates the two. It's not really a matter of higher or lower emotional intelligence but of different matters of perspective. 

Tbh though I'm basing all of my opinions off UtRH mostly though. Thought it showed perfect examples of why the character works so well.

----------


## G-Potion

> But that was the whole reason he made up the Red Hood persona in the first place though. Otherwise he would've just gone back to Bruce without forming it if Bruce had just killed the Joker. He wouldn't even be the Red Hood either. His whole identity literally lives of the Joker and Batman which is why I liked the Bat symbol. It completed the dynamic between the 3 characters pretty well. Without the Joker and Batman, there's not really a reason for someone like the Red Hood to exist. No reason to protect innocents with lethal force if Batman just does the job for him. Imo, he truly shines when he exists to be the anti-thesis of Batman. I just believe that's what cements his place in the Batman universe. He's unique in that regard.
> 
> I also don't really think it's immature of him to think in that way. He's honestly still got all of Batman's teachings and his need to protect innocents, but the difference in the methods is what separates the two. It's not really a matter of higher or lower emotional intelligence but of different matters of perspective. 
> 
> Tbh though I'm basing all of my opinions off UtRH mostly though. Thought it showed perfect examples of why the character works so well.


I'm not disagreeing with your analysis at all. But I personally think Jason as he has been written in N52 and Rebirth keeps his longing and wish to belong internal. Sure he still thinks he does what Batman won't, and I'm not saying it in itself is immature, rather, I feel the need to broadcast it to the world by wearing said symbol gets in the way of  being his own person. UTRH Jason came across fine without wearing it after all.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I'm not disagreeing with your analysis at all. But I personally think Jason as he has been written in N52 and Rebirth keeps his longing and wish to belong internal. Sure he still thinks he does what Batman won't, and I'm not saying it in itself is immature, rather, I feel the need to broadcast it to the world by wearing said symbol gets in the way of  being his own person. UTRH Jason came across fine without wearing it after all.


I think it might be a matter of individual preference as well so it's no problem if you disagree. I just personally think that if the writers are getting rid of the bat symbol for being too representative of being an ally of Bats then they might probably reconsider his Red Hood persona as well since its taken originally from the Joker and its representative of him as well. I know he really doesn't need it, as he didn't have it in the UTRH storyline but I chalked it up to being because he still wasn't sure that Batman wouldn't kill the Joker till the end of it where he finds out for certain that Batman won't kill which then starts the whole 'scarlet letter' theme Lobdell mentioned in his previous interviews in the New52+Rebirth Outlaws runs.

----------


## Zaresh

> He isn't back. He just lost a dare with someone like usual.
> 
> Btw, I reread this interview and this made me a little less worried about the new direction.


I see. Heh, it's a relief, thathe sees him like that, indeed. His concept seems similar to mine, at leaat. Good.

----------


## G-Potion

> Dang, was about to post it.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow, here`s Funk with the package. Now, it`s a matter of time waiting for Halloween for the Hood and crowbar edition


He's adorable!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## kiwiliko

> I see. Heh, it's a relief, thathe sees him like that, indeed. His concept seems similar to mine, at leaat. Good.


True, I'm holding out he's sticking with the things he said in interview. Maybe this is one of those times where the cover is just misleading. The BG is entirely him wailing on random minor thugs but I'll be surprised if this happens in the actual story givens it looks the opposite to the interview.

----------


## Zaresh

And about the batsymbol, you don't need it to acknowledge his heritage. Dick doesn't have it, neither does any Robin. It ties him strongly to Bruce, and I agree that he probably needs to discard it if he want to establish himself more strongly. I am indifferent to the symbol, to be honest; but I think that it does ties him too much. It makes sense for the Bagirls and Batwoman, because the name itself; but it doesn't really fit any other ally. It's like telling that they need his father pass to operate, or that they operate under his wing. Which is not true for Jason especially, more thar even for the very much self-reliant Nightwing.

----------


## Zaresh

> True, I'm holding out he's sticking with the things he said in interview. Maybe this is one of those times where the cover is just misleading. The BG is entirely him wailing on random minor thugs but I'll be surprised if this happens in the actual story givens it looks the opposite to the interview.


Let's hope for the better! In any case, if it's well reasoned, I probably could buy almost any other thing. I'm an easy reader, I guess :_)

Gosh, I hate phoneposting.

----------


## thebluefeline

> And about the batsymbol, you don't need it to aknowledge his heritage. Dick doesn't have it, neither does any Robin. It ties him strongly to Bruce, and I agree that he probably needs to discart it if he want to stablish himself more strongly. I am indifferent to the symbol, to be honest; but I think that it does ties him too much. It makes sense for the Bagirls and Batwoman, because the name itself; but it doesn't really fit any other ally. It's like telling that they need his father pass to operate, or that they operate under his wing. Which is not true for Jason especially, more thar even for the very much self-reliant Nightwing.


For me, it's not really about needing the approval from Bats to do what he wants to do but more of the idea that the Red Hood character exists because of both Joker and Batman, something the other Robins definitely weren't built upon. I might be putting too much weight into the whole idea though cause I just personally like to look for the meanings behind the symbols but I think I'll just respectfully agree to disagree for now  :Wink:

----------


## G-Potion

I think the connection to Joker and Batman while is a beautiful thing from a reader's perspective but Jason's, not so much.

----------


## Kalethas31

red hood have a new team?

----------


## G-Potion

> red hood have a new team?


Nah going solo for now it seems.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if Jason's new chest logo can still blast electricity.

----------


## Zaresh

> I wonder if Jason's new chest logo can still blast electricity.


It looks like a T-Shirt.
I don't know. We only can wait for the actual issue, or some kind of explained concept art.

----------


## G-Potion

> It looks like a T-Shirt.
> I don't know. We only can wait for the actual issue, or some kind of explained concept art.


Yep, would love to see all of his newly added tricks as well. The new design is really interesting because there are likely more offense options but with less defense.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Yep, would love to see all of his newly added tricks as well. The new design is really interesting because there are likely more offense options but with less defense.


His new costume appearing to lack even the basic protective armoring of all his previous costumes concerns me a bit. Does this mean in addition to being more violent he also, on some level, has a death wish on top of that? If so then Jason's going to be a in a VERY dark place in this arc.

----------


## Aahz

Interestingly Jason had already a similar cheat symbol in injustice 2.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is not a death wish, Jason lost _everything_ and is pretty much starting anew. The solicit said so.




> Jason Todd's about to take this vigilante game to a whole new level. His partners, Bizarro and Artemis? Gone! His mentor, Batman? Out! *His base of operations, Gotham City? Abandoned. Cast out and alone*, Red Hood embarks on a bold, brutal new mission, with a new costume, new weapons and a new plan to punish evildoers across the DCU.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is not a death wish, Jason lost _everything_ and is pretty much starting anew. The solicit said so.


Yes, he's starting anew but even when Batgirl had to cobble together a new uniform when she started anew in Burnside her costume wasn't just a tee shirt, pants, arm wraps and a hoodie. There was at least basic armoring there. Going out there to fight bad guy who have guns and other assorted weapons with only a crowbar, fists and no armor whatsoever is not a smart thing which is why I'm wondering if he has a death wish. At the very least he's not thinking at all clearly. I thought he was way smarter than that. I also thought he, IDK, might have had a safe house or two still functioning somewhere since he literally had them all over the world at one point in Lobdell's earlier run. It's rather odd wouldn't you say? Without the context it makes literally no sense at all for someone with all the training he has to make a mistake like that.

----------


## kiwiliko

> I wonder if Jason's new chest logo can still blast electricity.


I sure hope so. He caught Batman and an amazon off guard with that trick, thunderboobs is clearly a superior outfit choice.  :Smile:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yes, he's starting anew but even when Batgirl had to cobble together a new uniform when she started anew in Burnside her costume wasn't just a tee shirt, pants, arm wraps and a hoodie. There was at least basic armoring there. Going out there to fight bad guy who have guns and other assorted weapons with only a crowbar, fists and no armor whatsoever is not a smart thing which is why I'm wondering if he has a death wish. At the very least he's not thinking at all clearly. I thought he was way smarter than that. I also thought he, IDK, might have had a safe house or two still functioning somewhere since he literally had them all over the world at one point in Lobdell's earlier run. It's rather odd wouldn't you say? Without the context it makes literally no sense at all for someone with all the training he has to make a mistake like that.


I must remind you of the people saying that a leather jacket wouldn't be useful to stop a knife and either Tarrs or Stewart saying it was a moot point because they wouldn't write something like that?

And is not a mistake, the basic idea is taking away all of his toys and connections and scaling him back to full blown vigilante.

----------


## Zaresh

> I sure hope so. He caught Batman and an amazon off guard with that trick, *thunderboobs* is clearly a superior outfit choice.


Now that's a word I will love to use.
I hope he gets back to some kind of armour in the future. I want to get to use a lot that word, really.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I must remind you of the people saying that a leather jacket wouldn't be useful to stop a knife and either Tarrs or Stewart saying it was a moot point because they wouldn't write something like that?
> 
> And is not a mistake, the basic idea is taking away all of his toys and connections and scaling him back to full blown vigilante.


IDK Dark it seems odd that he would have all his toys taken away when he had a bunch of safe houses around the world with costumes and weapons within Lobdell's own run. His safe houses etc in Gotham being unavailable to him makes sense because Gotham is off limits to him right now but from where I'm standing right now this costume makes no sense at all because he should have something better available to him elsewhere. I might feel differently if I find out that say Jason has gone to ground or if all of his safe house are compromised or destroyed somehow or if he's gone undercover in a fight club or something of that sort. You may be privy to some additional information that I simply don't have (and I don't know if you are or not) but until I actually am able to see what the situation is after his fight with Bruce I only have my own thoughts about the costume. Things might change later though. Who knows.

----------


## G-Potion

> His new costume appearing to lack even the basic protective armoring of all his previous costumes concerns me a bit. Does this mean in addition to being more violent he also, on some level, has a death wish on top of that? If so then Jason's going to be a in a VERY dark place in this arc.


It's not a stretch to think that he's out to hurt as well as to get hurt. As you said, him starting anew doesn't negate this idea.

----------


## EMarie

I'm optimistic about this upcoming arc.

I could see the reasoning for the costume going a number of ways. Bruce is shutting him down, has discovered a portion of his funds. Jason is lying low in another town trying not to lead Bruce to another account or his safehouses. The Ben Reilly approach: Jason has to come up with something with what he current has as crime waits for no one.

----------


## G-Potion

> Interestingly Jason had already a similar cheat symbol in injustice 2.


That _is_ interesting. Good catch, Aahz. I've always wondered why NRS thought of that symbol for Jason.

----------


## Mauriciofq

The symbol really looks like a fox.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It's not a stretch to think that he's out to hurt as well as to get hurt. As you said, him starting anew doesn't negate this idea.


I could see him doing just that because of whatever happens between him and Bruce that leads to their falling out. They had, after all, gained some measure of trust between them previously so when Jason breaks that trust and losses it I could see him feeling like he deserves some physical pain to go along with the mental pain. 




> I'm optimistic about this upcoming arc.
> 
> I could see the reasoning for the costume going a number of ways. Bruce is shutting him down, has discovered a portion of his funds. Jason is lying low in another town trying not to lead Bruce to another account or his safehouses. The Ben Reilly approach: Jason has to come up with something with what he current has as crime waits for no one.


Oh, I can see loads of reasons for the costume as well but at the moment we've no explanation for it or why it seems to be less armored than previous costumes were. Without that little detail its seems on the surface to be a not well thought out choice on Jason's part and a bit of a stupid one as well if he's planning on facing the same type of people he normally would. That's just my opinion. With an explanation I might still feel its a stupid costume choice but at least then I'd have a reason for the decision that would presumably make the whole thing make sense to me.

----------


## G-Potion

> The symbol really looks like a fox.


*Zaresh* ruined me. Now I don't want it to be anything else.

----------


## Mauriciofq

Really fits with his name.

----------


## EMarie

> Really fits with his name.


Ironic if you think about it. Bruce lost his parents after seeing Zorro in Crime Alley then years later he meets Jason Todd there.

----------


## Zaresh

*BWAHAHAHAHA!!*
*Just as planned.*

*Cue another evil laugh.

----------


## G-Potion

Can't wait to see more fanarts of this costume.

https://twitter.com/gothamtwinks

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

http://rayxeme.lofter.com/

----------


## Aahz

Honestly I think a new direction for the book isn't the worst idea. 

Artemis and Bizzaro are way to powerfull for the criminals in Gotham, and since the Artemis Arc they didn't really encountered anything (appart from maybe Grundy) that was really a thread for them.

I don't have a problem with the Dark Trinity coming back together soon, but I would like them to go up against some bad guys that are really on the level of the trinity.

----------


## Aioros22

A good deal of the threats in the book have been social and moral but they still dealt with each other (first arc), Grundy, Akila with the Bow of Ra, the Trinity and Circe, the upgraded "Beast", Solitaire (at least individually) and the Gotham Knights as well as the subtle sheeningans of Lex Luthor. Jason is the one who usually deals with the actual Gotham slums.

----------


## Aahz

> A good deal of the threats in the book have been social and moral but they still dealt with each other (first arc), Grundy, Akila with the Bow of Ra, the Trinity and Circe, the upgraded "Beast", Solitaire (at least individually) and the Gotham Knights as well as the subtle sheeningans of Lex Luthor. Jason is the one who usually deals with the actual Gotham slums.


But once in a while there needs to be a real big thread imo. 
Btw. Circe was in another book, and the Outlaws where possesd by Demons for the majority of the story and Solitaire has still done to little sofar.

----------


## Aioros22

Those were big threats examples. I`m aware the Trinity was in another book but the sentiment is the same. They were possessed at first and then joined in the final battle. The TrinityTM alone didn`t do the job. 

What little we`ve seen of Solitaire already poses him as a big enemy. He`s able to seemingly be everywhere without notice in plain sight and can easily knock off someone like Bizarro without appearant struggle.

----------


## G-Potion

Welp. Why do they have to change the whole team.

----------


## G-Potion

On the other hand.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Zaresh

Hmm... I guess we will have to just get used to all these changes. I'll miss both Exposito and Gandini.

I was going to say that Winn probably was going to stay inking, but why the sketches then?
Hmm...

----------


## Jovos2099

Someone should draw a picture of all the different alternate universe/timeline Jasons together

----------


## magpieM

I'm ok with the design of the new outfit. But now I'm a little bit worried about how they are gonna draw Jason's face under the helmet

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm ok with the design of the new outfit. But now I'm a little bit worried about how they are gonna draw Jason's face under the helmet


Have you checked how Pete Woods draws faces?

----------


## G-Potion

So not the new costume I guess.

https://twitter.com/ryanwinn

----------


## EMarie

> I'm ok with the design of the new outfit. But now I'm a little bit worried about how they are gonna draw Jason's face under the helmet


Yeah, when I saw this drawing I thought it was Bruce.

----------


## G-Potion

He's not the artist for RHATO though. Might be the inker.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Hi. I'm just new here. I just want to share my Jason Todd collection. Still missing 10 more collectibles and obviously a lot of statues. Lol.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hi. I'm just new here. I just want to share my Jason Todd collection. Still missing 10 more collectibles and obviously a lot of statues. Lol.


Holy cow!!! I'm actually jealous. Awesome collection. Update us after you got Funko Red Hood yeah? 

And big welcome, mate!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Hi. I'm just new here. I just want to share my Jason Todd collection. Still missing 10 more collectibles and obviously a lot of statues. Lol.


Wow! That's a lot!
And Welcome.

----------


## Ssstammerer

> Holy cow!!! I'm actually jealous. Awesome collection. Update us after you got Funko Red Hood yeah? 
> 
> And big welcome, mate!


Thanks! I started collecting Jason Todds since mid 2016. I might have the Funko Pop Red Hood next month.

----------


## Ssstammerer

> Wow! That's a lot!
> And Welcome.


Thanks, mate. Still hunting for the others.

----------


## G-Potion

Educational for all of you artists here, and a very personal story that I appreciate Winn sharing with us.

----------


## Sergard

Issue 26 makes me curious - and a little bit scared. This new story direction will be either really good or really bad. I'm so torn.
I wanted a solo adventure for Jason since New52 - on the other hand the current "dark trinity" with Bizarro and Artemis is so surprisingly well-fitting.
I love a dark atmosphere - on the other hand it was nice to see some happy Jason in Rebirth.
I like seeing Jason travel the world - on the other hand I liked Ma Gunn's place. I had the tiny little hope that Ma Gunn would reopen her school and Jason would help out. It would have been nice to see Jason interact with street kids (and maybe introducing them to the joy of literature)
And especially this stupid crowbar. THE crowbar. Where does it even come from? Birthday present from the Joker? Or did Batman have it stored somewhere?
It's such a strange weapon. I wonder if this is just some eyecatcher for the cover or if Jason will really hurt somebody with it. It's not really a killing weapon but more a weapon for torture (and property damage).
That makes me also wonder if Jason is going back to killing or not. As said, a crowbar in general is not a good choice to kill somebody. And I could imagine that Jason's point of view adjusted a little bit since he read Willis' letters.
Before reading the letters Jason would have probably said that Willis was a guy who deserved to be killed and that he would have been happy if somebody had killed him sooner. But if Jason would now still say the same?

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/syusyusyu1515

Damian and his monkey broke Jason's basket. Jason is given a new one.

----------


## G-Potion

> Issue 26 makes me curious - and a little bit scared. This new story direction will be either really good or really bad. I'm so torn.
> I wanted a solo adventure for Jason since New52 - on the other hand the current "dark trinity" with Bizarro and Artemis is so surprisingly well-fitting.
> I love a dark atmosphere - on the other hand it was nice to see some happy Jason in Rebirth.
> I like seeing Jason travel the world - on the other hand I liked Ma Gunn's place. I had the tiny little hope that Ma Gunn would reopen her school and Jason would help out. It would have been nice to see Jason interact with street kids (and maybe introducing them to the joy of literature)
> And especially this stupid crowbar. THE crowbar. Where does it even come from? Birthday present from the Joker? Or did Batman have it stored somewhere?
> It's such a strange weapon. I wonder if this is just some eyecatcher for the cover or if Jason will really hurt somebody with it. It's not really a killing weapon but more a weapon for torture (and property damage).
> That makes me also wonder if Jason is going back to killing or not. As said, a crowbar in general is not a good choice to kill somebody. And I could imagine that Jason's point of view adjusted a little bit since he read Willis' letters.
> Before reading the letters Jason would have probably said that Willis was a guy who deserved to be killed and that he would have been happy if somebody had killed him sooner. But if Jason would now still say the same?


I don't know man. Firstly, I don't believe that Lobdell will just suddenly go bad because of a changed direction, much less a direction that was hinted at and prepared for for a long time. But I've always like the risks that Lobdell's taken with the character and until I see otherwise, I'll continue to trust him. 

As for Jason killing, he's never promised to not kill outside of Gotham. All that stopped him so far was editorial, but the thought was still there. Now he's out of Gotham and editorial wants him darker so we'll more likely see him do it. While he might shift a bit left or right on the morality spectrum, it's not going to be a complete reversal or anything.

Would old Jason think Willis deserve to be killed though? It's a bit different than saying he was happy to hear Willis died in prison.

----------


## EMarie

> I love a dark atmosphere - on the other hand it was nice to see some happy Jason in Rebirth.


I feel the same way but I trust Lobdell. If this was any other writer I'd be worried but he's developed and built up Jason more than any writer at this point.




> And especially this stupid crowbar. THE crowbar. Where does it even come from? Birthday present from the Joker? Or did Batman have it stored somewhere?
> It's such a strange weapon. I wonder if this is just some eyecatcher for the cover or if Jason will really hurt somebody with it. It's not really a killing weapon but more a weapon for torture (and property damage).
> That makes me also wonder if Jason is going back to killing or not. As said, a crowbar in general is not a good choice to kill somebody. And I could imagine that Jason's point of view adjusted a little bit since he read Willis' letters.
> Before reading the letters Jason would have probably said that Willis was a guy who deserved to be killed and that he would have been happy if somebody had killed him sooner. But if Jason would now still say the same?


If it is the crowbar Snyder did a story when Dick was Batman where it was being auctioned off and stole it. Once home he didn't want to see it anymore and told Alfred to throw it away. Whether Alfred did or not was never shown.

Jason was fine with Willis being dead but I don't know if he felt Willis deserved it the same way Joker deserves to die in his eyes. As far as we know Willis was just a low level henchman. We haven't heard about him doing anything awfully beyond selling drugs and being a horrible dad and husband.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I feel the same way but I trust Lobdell. If this was any other writer I'd be worried but he's developed and built up Jason more than any writer at this point.


If ti was another writer Jason would only be defined by rage and who wants that again?

----------


## Zaresh

> Educational for all of you artists here, and a very personal story that I appreciate Winn sharing with us.


Nice. I love watching videos like this one.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If ti was another writer Jason would only be defined by rage and who wants that again?


That's part of my problem with this direction actually. Lobdell will likely at least write it well and it will fit in with the build up he's been doing for the character. Other writers though likely will only see that he's back to raging and killing and they will start writing him as a lunatic, unrepentant killer again. They won't bother trying to be nuanced about things nor will they care about the reasons why he's acting that way. I know people have complained about how he's been portrayed by other writers in the recent past but I think we may all be wishing for those portrayals again once writers start doing that.

----------


## EMarie

Do other writers usually bother tying into anything Lobdell does? In general Jason plots don't seemed to be picked up. Take that time Tomasi did the bit with Bruce bringing Jason to his death site. Not long after the Barman/Superman Annual happened with Bruce picking Jason to fight with him. No other title really cared.

I don't see this take in RHATO being a permanent thing.

----------


## Zaresh

> Do other writers usually bother tying into anything Lobdell does? In general Jason plots don't seemed to be picked up. Take that time Tomasi did the bit with Bruce bringing Jason to his death site. Not long after the Barman/Superman Annual happened with Bruce picking Jason to fight with him. No other title really cared.
> 
> I don't see this take in RHATO being a permanent thing.


I would say it only gets tied with some writers, and mostly in non-first line books. With exceptions. But I'm not entirely sure.

So the preview for Mother Panic: Gotham A.D. #4 is out, and there's one page with our lovely-but-not-so-lovely boy: http://www.freaksugar.com/exclusive-...-gotham-a-d-4/

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Do other writers usually bother tying into anything Lobdell does? In general Jason plots don't seemed to be picked up. Take that time Tomasi did the bit with Bruce bringing Jason to his death site. Not long after the Barman/Superman Annual happened with Bruce picking Jason to fight with him. No other title really cared.
> 
> I don't see this take in RHATO being a permanent thing.


Maybe not directly tie to it but whatever happens on Jason's main book gets mirrored on other appearances like Jason having Medri's costume during DCYOU

----------


## EMarie

> Maybe not directly tie to it but whatever happens on Jason's main book gets mirrored on other appearances like Jason having Medri's costume during DCYOU


Artwise sure but not always. Some art right now has Jason in his New 52 look rather than the rolled up jacket take. Or in Rocafort's case for the cover of the upcoming Annual the face mask.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Maybe not directly tie to it but whatever happens on Jason's main book gets mirrored on other appearances like Jason having Medri's costume during DCYOU


Or, in this case, that mirroring effect could mean that writers take up the idea of Jason as a violent and out his mind killer especially if this temporary direction becomes more permanent for sales reasons. It's  toss up really. My point is that I don't think anyone would be any more satisfied with him being portrayed in appearances outside of his own book as a one dimensional killer than they are with the way they feel he's been portrayed of late.

----------


## G-Potion

So it's gonna be the same thing. Just replace comic-relief Jason with killer Jason.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously though, I hope his new status means he gets used less in the Bat books and more in the Supe lines and others.

----------


## Zaresh

> So it's gonna be the same thing. Just replace comic-relief Jason with killer Jason. 
> 
> Seriously though, I hope his new status means he gets used less in the Bat books and more in the Supe lines and others.


I guess. What's the saying? The Monkey's paw? When you wish for something but it comes at a price that makes it not worth the pain? This seems to be the case, but, who knows.

I would love to see him outside the batbooks more often, too, though. I mean, you can make him a link between "corners" of the various DC labels without having to drop the batman setting at all. They really, really need more characters that fit the connector role between former different editorial verses. Because as much as they tried, tying characters like Zatanna and Constantine is awful, just because they are magicians: their settings and moods are different as day and night, and besides, they're too big characters.

----------


## G-Potion

> I would love to see him outside the batbooks more often, too, though. I mean, you can make him a link between "corners" of the various DC labels without having to drop the batman setting at all. They really, really need more characters that fit the connector role between former different editorial verses. Because as much as they tried, tying characters like Zatanna and Constantine is awful, just because they are magicians: their settings and moods are different as day and night, and besides, they're too big characters.


And now would be a good chance to do it too, to promote the book at the very least. The only thing RHATO lacks and it doesn't have anything to do with the creative team.

----------


## Aioros22

Leader of the cult of the Bat walking around in the Hush longcoat 

"Lord Robin"

I'm going to like this.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> So it's gonna be the same thing. Just replace comic-relief Jason with killer Jason. 
> 
> Seriously though, I hope his new status means he gets used less in the Bat books and more in the Supe lines and others.


It'd be pretty hard to use him less than he is already used, which is a cameo every great once in a while. I'm sure certain writers will be glad to not have to even bother with that anymore if Jason is going to be out of Gotham and estranged.

----------


## okiedokiewo

tumblr_pasv2kcjjg1rz3xp1o1_1280.jpg

From Dexter's instagram.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Or, in this case, that mirroring effect could mean that writers take up the idea of Jason as a violent and out his mind killer especially if this temporary direction becomes more permanent for sales reasons. It's  toss up really. My point is that I don't think anyone would be any more satisfied with him being portrayed in appearances outside of his own book as a one dimensional killer than they are with the way they feel he's been portrayed of late.


Most writers already mishandle Jason during his guest appearance so that wouldn't be anything new.

----------


## RedBird

> tumblr_pasv2kcjjg1rz3xp1o1_1280.jpg
> 
> From Dexter's instagram.


Awwwww, I'm really REALLY gonna miss Dexter Soy. 
I think I mentioned it before, but, in the same way that I associate certain artists as being THAT characters artist, like Marcus To for Tim or Patrick Gleason for Damian, I definitely see Dexter Soy being THE artist for Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> That's part of my problem with this direction actually. Lobdell will likely at least write it well and it will fit in with the build up he's been doing for the character. Other writers though likely will only see that he's back to raging and killing and they will start writing him as a lunatic, unrepentant killer again. They won't bother trying to be nuanced about things nor will they care about the reasons why he's acting that way. I know people have complained about how he's been portrayed by other writers in the recent past but I think we may all be wishing for those portrayals again once writers start doing that.


As long as there are no team up stories and Lobdell has exclusive use of Jason I think it will be fine. Now as for expanding Jason outside of Gotham as much fun as it would be for Jason and Kara to meet again I doubt in his current state neither Kara or Clark will be lenient towards him.

----------


## Rise

> I would say it only gets tied with some writers, and mostly in non-first line books. With exceptions. But I'm not entirely sure.
> 
> So the preview for Mother Panic: Gotham A.D. #4 is out, and there's one page with our lovely-but-not-so-lovely boy: http://www.freaksugar.com/exclusive-...-gotham-a-d-4/


This site is such a pain to view in phone.

The "lord Robin" made me laugh and the art is so good that I'm considering collecting the whole series since it's six-parts anyway.




> It'd be pretty hard to use him less than he is already used, which is a cameo every great once in a while. *I'm sure certain writers will be glad to not have to even bother with that anymore* if Jason is going to be out of Gotham and estranged.


Come on now. I know some of you not happy with how he was handled, but it didn't come out from pettiness or hatred for Jason nor they were forced to use him. 

How he is going to be used later is going to depend on how his new direction will be received and how Lobdell is going to handle it (I also doubt he is going to be used in bat books anytime soon after his fight with Batman). Like I said before, it's not going to be like how it was in pre-flashpoint because he has a direction and someone else in control of him now so writers aren't going to have the freedom do make him some crazy killer who hunt the heroes.

----------


## Rise

> _If you could write any other Bat character, who would it be?
> 
> Tynion didn't choose while Finsh said Nightwing. 
> 
> Tom King: I did a run on Grayson, so I did Dick for a while. Jason Todd.
> 
> Tom responded to a sudden outburst of applause from the audience by asking, “why do you guys like Jason Todd so much? He’s an asshole!”
> 
> Source: BC from Batman panel in Denver Con_


I have a feelings that might anger some of you, but it made me laugh (and him being jerk is one of the many reasons why we like him, King!). I also love how Jason keep getting applause whenever his name is mentioned in panels. Get the message, DC!

----------


## G-Potion

> Leader of the cult of the Bat walking around in the Hush longcoat 
> 
> "Lord Robin"
> 
> I'm going to like this.


Lord Robin. My is he dramatic.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I have a feelings that might anger some of you, but it made me laugh (and him being jerk is one of the many reasons why we like him, King!). I also love how Jason keep getting applause whenever his name is mentioned in panels. Get the message, DC!


As much as I dislike Tom King's writing of Jason, this honestly makes me laugh as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> Attachment 67445
> 
> From Dexter's instagram.


Did he take it down? I'm not seeing this on his instagram for some reasons.

Edit: Nvm found it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Come on now. I know some of you not happy with how he was handled, but it didn't come out from pettiness or hatred for Jason nor they were forced to use him.


Yeah...I definitely don't agree in some instances, but it's been discussed a million times, so moving on.

----------


## RedBird

> I also love how Jason keep getting applause whenever his name is mentioned in panels. Get the message, DC!


Love that the fan base is still going strong  :Big Grin: 



Also in the case of Tom King, 



> I have a feelings that might anger some of you


not so much anger as much as.....



Well there ya go, if his writing didn't let on how much he wasn't fond of the character already, this should have made it a tad more clear at least.
DC writers being perplexed by Jasons popularity should be its own running joke by now.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s a little of A and B. I think is clear he was playing the humor and I`ve nothing against it personally but I also believe DC at large still doesn`t believe how popular he`s become. Anti-heroes are really popular as a trope, always have been, but one that was dead for almost 20 years? That`s a shock they`re still reeling on.

----------


## RedBird

> It`s a little of A and B. I think is clear he was playing the humor and I`ve nothing against it personally but I also believe DC at large still doesn`t believe how popular he`s become. Anti-heroes are really popular as a trope, always have been, but one that was dead for almost 20 years? That`s a shock they`re still reeling on.


Of course he is, but if he's asking why, to the crowds applause, then its clear he too is in the 'perplexed' side of DC. And that doesn't surprise me is all I'm saying.




> Anti-heroes are really popular as a trope, always have been, but one that was dead for almost 20 years? That`s a shock they`re still reeling on.


If that is the case, I find that so strange though, any new character created is in the hopes that it will become popular enough to sell well, and to become big enough that merchandise can be pushed out and bought by fans. DC create, or rather, 'recreate' one by accident and they don't have any idea what to do with him. The lack of thought on how to capitalize on the _potential_ of the characters popularity and marketability is surprising, BUT than again, Jasons most prominent rises to popularity have been through either media outside of DCs comics division and through licensing the character for alternative media, so maybe there is something to be said about their 'hands off' method here. *shrug*

----------


## RedBird

j2ksa



Oof, really love these updated Reed Hood artworks.

----------


## Rise

I think DC in a way started to realize that he is popular, but they seem to be still confused with what to do with his popularity. Red Hood become popular despite them after all, not because they wanted him to be.

Btw, since Solitary 85% likely is Jason's father, doesn't he look too young to be him here?



And he look very different from the guy who Artemis supposedly killed if it was indeed him. Could Solitary has the ability to transfer his soul or mind to another body? Which mean that even if Jason saw him, he wouldn't recognize him?

What kill my theory is if he did have this ability, why there's no body in his grave? Maybe, it was lost?

----------


## Aioros22

Might not be his real face. His powerset seems powerfully vague as it is.

----------


## RedBird

> Red Hood become popular despite them after all, not because they wanted him to be.


Exactly.




> Btw, since Solitary 85% likely is Jason's father, doesn't he look too young to be him here?
> 
> And he look very different from the guy who Artemis supposedly killed if it was indeed him. Could Solitary has the ability to transfer his soul or mind to another body? Which mean that even if Jason saw him, he wouldn't recognize him?
> 
> What kill my theory is if he did have this ability, why there's no body in his grave? Maybe, it was lost?


I think (assuming the Willis is Solitary theory is true and so far it seems to be likely) it may be just this particular artist (Marcio Takara) that depicted him slightly young looking to be fair. IMO he seems to draw everyone (besides the exceptionally old like eg; Alfred) as being kinda 'baby faced'. 

Perhaps the difference between this rendition and the one of Willis being fished out by Artemis may also be just artist interpretation or aesthetic as well, that one was drawn by Allison Borges who tends to draw people rougher, with more lines on their faces. Plus in that rendition it would be difficult to see a resemblance since Willis's face in every panel is either hidden or twisted in grimace.

Willis.jpg

The only shot of Solitary we get from Borges work is this one.

Solitary1.JPG

and then the only other depiction of Solitary is by another artist, Dexter Soy.

Solitary2.JPG

With three different artists depicting Solitary and only one of those depicting Willis, it's honestly hard to tell if certain features, such as the seeming youthfulness, are artistic interpretations or straight up clues to Solitarys true nature and identity. However, features that they (depictions of solitary and recent depictions of Willis) all seem to share is brown hair. When I looked back, even the Willis that was depicted in the 'letter' issue 23 seemed to have either brown or black hair depending on the scene. And they also seem to have a sort of widows peak hairline going on. Willis's eye color seems to be blue in the recent issue but Solitary's is consistently brown so, unless Willis was meant to have brown eyes and the colorist made a mistake, (which is definitely possible and has happened multiple times to other characters) there's another wrench in that idea. Unless like you guys suggested, its not his real face to begin with. And hey, this is all assuming its Willis.

----------


## Rise

I forget that it was Borges who done the scene with Artemis. 

And yeah, it's very likely because of the multiple artists we had.




> When I looked back, even the Willis that was depicted in the 'letter' issue 23 seemed to have either brown or black hair depending on the scene


I just checked issue 23 and Willis for sure has a black hair which make sense because where else Jason will get the colour of his hair from?

----------


## Zaresh

Regarding the surprise of some writers for Jason's popularity, it doesn't surprise me in the least (ha!!). Sometimes I discuss with my little brother about the general shape of the world and we always end up agreeing in that there is an astonishing lack of general empathy (we both are different like white and black personality wise, but often agree in these sort of things). And people don't getting why other people can like and care for a character that, despite his many problems, decides to take a radical action in a world that apparently is leagues more messed up that ours it's probably expected at this point. It's a classic story that easily connects with a lot of people that either can identify with him at some level, or either they can care for a character like him because he's a bleeding heart and will probably hurt himself more and they pity him and want him to be "better" and "grow up". That, and his background make for a lot of points of sympathy that are probably lost to a percentage of our society /for whatever reason).

But to each their own; honestly, I find him way more heroic that Batman at this point (I have a hard time understanding how modern Batman can be so liked. Or Iron Man. Ore Blach Panther. Us, siblings, don't get Black Panther at all!). But the people who don't get it probably think that it's just how cool and edgy he looks and act , the reason behind his popularity I mean; the angst too, because that's attractive for a lot of people. And that reasoning isn't entirely false, but those swallow reasons are far from the reason that those who like him stay liking him and become invested fans. After reading some fanfics, or reading some reviews too, one can understand how is it that a really minor character that probably should've stayed as a minor rogue in the gallery of a larger-than-life character like Batman, gets to become so popular within the base and stay as an anti-hero; because we care about him, because we can connect with him in some way.

Edited: Btw, I think King was kidding, mostly. I suspect he thinks that him mocking Jason is fun in an affectionate way. But also shows that he doesn't get him, which is clear by how he writes him.

----------


## RedBird

> I just checked issue 23 and Willis for sure has a black hair which make sense because where else Jason will get the colour of his hair from?


Don't get me wrong, I was sure of that too, it was gonna be part of my reasons as to why that face ISNT Willis's but seriously the only thing that muddled that thought up was that some of the scenes seem to be shaded or rather highlighted with brown instead of the blue shading normally used for black hair, both of which are used in this issue, which kinda just kinda added to my confusion. XD. Logic tells me its black of course, but thanks to the colourist I'm left feeling 90% certain rather than 100%, you know? Ima just keep that 10% open till we get any other visuals on Willis, even though for now I've settled on black. It seems to have always been that way, and like you mentioned, where else was would Jason get his hair from, unless his mother was dying it this whole time.

EDIT: Sorry I was on mobile before. Here's the examples I meant.

Willis Brown.JPG

Brown

Willis Brown 2.JPG

Brown again.

Willis Black.jpg

And back to black  :Big Grin: 

Of course this ain't hardcore evidence, my vote still goes for black, but for the sake of remaining objective, I felt I had to mention these coloration's.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Something important to keep in mind about Jason's popularity is that, yes, he is popular with the regular public in general but just a fraction of them actually vote with their wallet by buying his comics, leading to Jason still being firmly a second tier character far as editorial is concerned. So unless the so-called fans also start supporting the comics, there's little interest from editorial to put a bigger effort on him.

----------


## Rise

RHATO was selling better than Deathstroke (he only got a boost thanks to Batman being it, but he was doing less before), Batgirl and Supergirl (she was doing less until that famous artist take over the variants) and they all get more attention from DC than him. He also not doing badly compared to the rest who are in 26k and under line since only very few are doing well.

And fans don't vote with their wallet because they don't feel DC care since Jason's book hardly got any coverage. A lot of Jason fans don't care because they don't feel DC care about them which I can't blame them for even if I feel that the status he is currently in isn't bad.




> Don't get me wrong, I was sure of that too, it was gonna be part of my reasons as to why that face ISNT Willis's but seriously the only thing that muddled that thought up was that some of the scenes seem to be shaded or rather highlighted with brown instead of the blue shading normally used for black hair, both of which are used in this issue, which kinda just kinda added to my confusion. XD. Logic tells me its black of course, but thanks to the colourist I'm left feeling 90% certain rather than 100%, you know? Ima just keep that 10% open till we get any other visuals on Willis, even though for now I've settled on black. It seems to have always been that way, and like you mentioned, where else was would Jason get his hair from, unless his mother was dying it this whole time.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry I was on mobile before. Here's the examples I meant.
> 
> Willis Brown.JPG
> 
> Brown
> 
> Willis Brown 2.JPG
> ...


Redbird, you making me doubt my eyes because I swear the pics you posted he has black hair!

----------


## G-Potion

> j2ksa
> 
> 
> 
> Oof, really love these updated Reed Hood artworks.


Nice! His design is even more awesome with the reveal of the mask under the hood. Really love the artist's take on his hair as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> Something important to keep in mind about Jason's popularity is that, yes, he is popular with the regular public in general but just a fraction of them actually vote with their wallet by buying his comics, leading to Jason still being firmly a second tier character far as editorial is concerned. So unless the so-called fans also start supporting the comics, there's little interest from editorial to put a bigger effort on him.


Hard to do so if there are little to no promotions for his books. Now if this move to a darker Red Hood partly a DC plan to bring the UTRH/AK/Injustice crowd over, then I hope they will do their job this time and get the words out to those fans.

----------


## Zaresh

> Redbird, you making me doubt my eyes because I swear the pics you posted he has black hair!


It's black, but different lighting means different shades in the highlight. The only one who looks less black is Soy's Solitary, who has dark brown hair that could easily be black. Comics are that weird.

About buying stuff, if I could buy more, I would. But unfortunately, for me it's hard to buy even the most emblematic story arc; Winick's work in Under The Hood. It seems that the publisher in our country isn't planning  on reprinting those three trades (two for UtH and one for LD; they come in the same series) and It's hard to find (they are listed in a lot of shops, but they don't have them; and the publisher itself only has the third trade in stock. A shop owner who is a friend of mine asked). The same could be said for the N52 run; and Rebirth's run isn't even being published at all. Which is understable, because here he's really only known by a few and doesn't have a lot of fans (well, he has, and some are very vocal. But he doesn't have many). Understable that our published isn't interested; it's a business, after all.

As it is, it's either looking for those books half across the country in a sort of mystical quest, buy import, or go digital. The first one, I'm too tired to really try (but probably will do in the end, after years of looking for them); the second option is out of my capacity (I'm penniless, and duty and transport taxes between America and Europe are crazy high); so digital it is (and publishers don't really care for digital, apparently). That doesn't mean I'm less of a fan, just to be clear.

----------


## RedBird

> Something important to keep in mind about Jason's popularity is that, yes, he is popular with the regular public in general but just a fraction of them actually vote with their wallet by buying his comics, leading to Jason still being firmly a second tier character far as editorial is concerned. So unless the so-called fans also start supporting the comics, there's little interest from editorial to put a bigger effort on him.


I don't think this is necessarily the fans fault. I don't think that DC themselves have done enough to totally earn this handwavy whatever attitude they have about the character. Its not like they've done much to support the character in the first place to warrant this lack of even trying. It's not like he received some kind of push from DC ala Batwoman style, being a vital character placed in a big hitter book like detective comics then in their own solo title. It's not like he has a big writer behind him that been trying to boost him for years now, ala Duke Thomas style with Snyder. Hell out of the mainstay bat characters of Dick, Babs, Tim, Damian, Cass, Stephanie, Kate and Luke he is the only one to never have his own solo title. Mainstream popular characters like Harley Quinn, didn't become popular overnight because DC simply ignored the ever growing fandom, wiping their hands clean and saying whelp let's just keep her as a B character in a team book. No, they saw the opportunity and they took it, they gave her her own solo's made sure she was front and center in her team book and placed her in whatever crossovers they can, they promoted the hell out of her. Now Harley is definitely a special case, granted, she is most _definitely_ above RH in terms of popularity, I'm certainly not making a _direct_ comparison here, and this most certainly ain't a dig at any of these characters mentioned AT ALL, but just I'm sayin, when you look at the differences, there's never been any sort of 'push' for the Red Hood as a concept, to succeed at DC. I mean jeez, even the team book, rhato, that fans had to _demand_ for, (if I remember correctly apparently to such a degree it was the most demanded book prior to new52s launch) doesn't even receive any promotion these days. 

At best, I think the only time I think DC comics ever had Jason front and center (sort of) in anything was in _another team up_, the highly criticized countdown series, and that was a decade ago. Jasons popularity has risen leaps and bounds since then, and that series was a blunder anyway since it was not meant to promote the popular Red Hood identity at all but to be a transition point from RH to Red Robin for Jason.

----------


## Aahz

Him getting one of the preludes (and popping up in more out of continuity stuff), could at least be a sign, that they seem him as more important now. We just need to see if that translates to a better treatment in his guest appearances.

----------


## G-Potion

> Regarding the surprise of some writers for Jason's popularity, it doesn't surprise me in the least (ha!!). Sometimes I discuss with my little brother about the general shape of the world and we always end up agreeing in that there is an astonishing lack of general empathy (we both are different like white and black personality wise, but often agree in these sort of things). And people don't getting why other people can like and care for a character that, despite his many problems, decides to take a radical action in a world that apparently is leagues more messed up that ours it's probably expected at this point. It's a classic story that easily connects with a lot of people that either can identify with him at some level, or either they can care for a character like him because he's a bleeding heart and will probably hurt himself more and they pity him and want him to be "better" and "grow up". That, and his background make for a lot of points of sympathy that are probably lost to a percentage of our society /for whatever reason).
> 
> But to each their own; honestly, I find him way more heroic that Batman at this point (I have a hard time understanding how modern Batman can be so liked. Or Iron Man. Ore Blach Panther. Us, siblings, don't get Black Panther at all!). But the people who don't get it probably think that it's just how cool and edgy he looks and act , the reason behind his popularity I mean; the angst too, because that's attractive for a lot of people. And that reasoning isn't entirely false, but those swallow reasons are far from the reason that those who like him stay liking him and become invested fans. After reading some fanfics, or reading some reviews too, one can understand how is it that a really minor character that probably should've stayed as a minor rogue in the gallery of a larger-than-life character like Batman, gets to become so popular within the base and stay as an anti-hero; because we care about him, because we can connect with him in some way.
> 
> Edited: Btw, I think King was kidding, mostly. I suspect he thinks that him mocking Jason is fun in an affectionate way. But also shows that he doesn't get him, which is clear by how he writes him.


Beautiful write-up, *Zaresh*! I started out a Batman fan but now I ask myself the same question. I just, don't feel anything for him now.

Also, I really get you on the empathy point. I guess that's why Lobdell is so successful with Jason. His writing is all heart and empathy, not just for Jason himself but for the characters around him as well. This is one of those cases for me, where I feel like wanting to know a writer as a person because of the sincerity and kindness in their writing.

----------


## RedBird

> Redbird, you making me doubt my eyes because I swear the pics you posted he has black hair!


LOL Sorry, I know it's mainly black but since it's inked black and highlighted with either brown or blue, (in art brown highlights signifying brown OR black hair and blue highlights signifying black hair) thats what made me confused in the first place. Don't worry though, I'm sure its just meant to be black overall.  :Big Grin: 




> It's black, but different lighting means different shades in the highlight. The only one who looks less black is Soy's Solitary, who has dark brown hair that could easily be black. *Comics are that weird.*


You said it.
I can't wait till Solitary gets revealed and I can stop splitting hairs, literally XD

----------


## Zaresh

> I don't think this is necessarily the fans fault. I don't think that DC themselves have done enough to totally earn this handwavy whatever attitude they have about the character. Its not like they've done much to support the character in the first place to warrant this lack of even trying. It's not like he received some kind of push from DC ala Batwoman style, being a vital character placed in a big hitter book like detective comics then in their own solo title. It's not like he has a big writer behind him that been trying to boost him for years now, ala Duke Thomas style with Snyder. Hell out of the mainstay bat characters of Dick, Babs, Tim, Damian, Cass, Stephanie, Kate and Luke he is the only one to never have his own solo title. Mainstream popular characters like Harley Quinn, didn't become popular overnight because DC simply ignored the ever growing fandom, wiping their hands clean and saying whelp let's just keep her as a B character in a team book. No, they saw the opportunity and they took it, they gave her her own solo's made sure she was front and center in her team book and placed her in whatever crossovers they can, they promoted the hell out of her. Now Harley is definitely a special case, granted, she is most _definitely_ above RH in terms of popularity, I'm certainly not making a _direct_ comparison here, and this most certainly ain't a dig at any of these characters mentioned AT ALL, but just I'm sayin, when you look at the differences, there's never been any sort of 'push' for the Red Hood as a concept, to succeed at DC. I mean jeez, even the team book, rhato, that fans had to _demand_ for, (if I remember correctly apparently to such a degree it was the most demanded book prior to new52s launch) doesn't even receive any promotion these days. 
> 
> At best, I think the only time I think DC comics ever had Jason front and center (sort of) in anything was in _another team up_, the highly criticized countdown series, and that was a decade ago. Jasons popularity has risen leaps and bounds since then, and that series was a blunder anyway since it was not meant to promote the popular Red Hood identity at all but to be a transition point from RH to Red Robin for Jason.


Comparing him to Harley Quinn seems fair, I think. She was a fans fave from the animated series (understable, because she was dumb fun villain, a pitiable villain even). I liked her there; but not nowadays, mostly because I think she represents a lot of things that feel wrong for me on a personal point of view. But also, because she's been so pushed, it has burnt me to her. Sometimes you have to be wary of what you wishes, because promotion can go really wrong if not measured. I had the same burnt effect with Wolverine, for example.




> LOL Sorry, I know it's mainly black but since it's inked black and highlighted with either brown or blue, (in art brown highlights signifying brown OR black hair and blue highlights signifying black hair) thats what made me confused in the first place. Don't worry though, I'm sure its just meant to be black overall. 
> ...
> You said it.
> I can't wait till Solitary gets revealed and* I can stop splitting hairs, literally* XD


Oh, can I relate to that? I'm growing bald because the waiting!

And glad I'm not alone, *@G-Pots*! I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about Lobdell myself. He seems like a reflective kind of guy.

----------


## Rise

> I don't think this is necessarily the fans fault. I don't think that DC themselves have done enough to totally earn this handwavy whatever attitude they have about the character. Its not like they've done much to support the character in the first place to warrant this lack of even trying. It's not like he received some kind of push from DC ala Batwoman style, being a vital character placed in a big hitter book like detective comics then in their own solo title. It's not like he has a big writer behind him that been trying to boost him for years now, ala Duke Thomas style with Snyder. Hell out of the mainstay bat characters of Dick, Babs, Tim, Damian, Cass, Stephanie, Kate and Luke he is the only one to never have his own solo title. Mainstream popular characters like Harley Quinn, didn't become popular overnight because DC simply ignored the ever growing fandom, wiping their hands clean and saying whelp let's just keep her as a B character in a team book. No, they saw the opportunity and they took it, they gave her her own solo's made sure she was front and center in her team book and placed her in whatever crossovers they can, they promoted the hell out of her. Now Harley is definitely a special case, granted, she is most _definitely_ above RH in terms of popularity, I'm certainly not making a _direct_ comparison here, and this most certainly ain't a dig at any of these characters mentioned AT ALL, but just I'm sayin, when you look at the differences, there's never been any sort of 'push' for the Red Hood as a concept, to succeed at DC. I mean jeez, even the team book, rhato, that fans had to _demand_ for, (if I remember correctly apparently to such a degree it was the most demanded book prior to new52s launch) doesn't even receive any promotion these days. 
> 
> At best, I think the only time I think DC comics ever had Jason front and center (sort of) in anything was in _another team up_, the highly criticized countdown series, and that was a decade ago. Jasons popularity has risen leaps and bounds since then, and that series was a blunder anyway since it was not meant to promote the popular Red Hood identity at all but to be a transition point from RH to Red Robin for Jason.


You said it best, RedBird. You can't blame the fans when the company don't even bother to win them over. 

Jason is getting a new look and direction and we don't even have an interview explaining what the heck is going on nor they bothered to give us a closer look on his new costume.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is getting a new look and direction and we don't even have an interview explaining what the heck is going on nor they bothered to give us a closer look on his new costume.


I hope they're _planing_ to do it rather than not doing it at all. Granted, this direction might be what Lobdell wanted all along, but with the creative team change, obviously it's also editorial. Would be dumb to not give readers more reasons to care.

----------


## Rise

I hope they do too, but they should have done it the moment the cover was revealed like they literally done with every book that got a new direction. They instead let fans scratch their heads and freak out because they can't bother to let the creative team explain what's going on.

----------


## Aioros22

They likely just don`t want to spoil in advance the ending of this arc since it`s dependable on more than one plot point. One is not even about Jason, _what will happen to the other two_? For now, it`s understandable.

----------


## Rise

Writers rarely ever spoil their plots. The purpose of interviews is to hype you up and give you something to look forward to.

Btw guys, Jan found some pics of the upcoming issue 26 and he shared them with me (*spoiler warning to who don't want to know, but it's pretty small anyway*):

Jason is getting a new haircut (goodbye bangs...).

His helmet is gone.

The symbol on his shirt is like what we saw on the cover which probably mean nothing. 

There are other details, but I can't explain without context.

----------


## G-Potion

> Writers rarely ever spoil their plots. The purpose of interviews is to hype you up and give you something to look forward to.
> 
> Btw guys, Jan found some pics of the upcoming issue 26 and he shared them with me (*spoiler warning to who don't want to know, but it's pretty small anyway*):
> 
> Jason is getting a new haircut (goodbye bangs...).
> 
> His helmet is gone.
> 
> The symbol on his shirt is like what we saw on the cover which probably mean nothing. 
> ...


RIP hair. The white streak is still a dream.

----------


## magpieM

No helmet and a new haircut? Are they gonna let him have a beard?

Btw I also think it's time to interview Lobdell about the new direction. He hasn't even updated his Twitter for quite some time.

----------


## Zaresh

So many, many changes. 
I'm bracing myself with quake-like thrill at this point.

----------


## G-Potion

Will he get a dramatic hair shaving scene though?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Will he get a dramatic hair shaving scene though?


Oh, please, please, yes.
Still, hard to top the best in my personal list; the haircut episode in Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid. Sousuke's first was hilarious, and then the second one, the real one, with Chidori, was so sweet. Damn, I love FMP!. I need to catch up with the new season. I will let the first haircut scene here, even if it's the dub version (and so miss the awesome work that the japanese voice actors did. Sousuke's especially).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93d4pPuq0kM

----------


## Rise

> Sousuke


I read it as "Sasuke" at first and I was like "wait, when did he get a haircut?". I feel old for still remembering Naruto...

----------


## Zaresh

> I read it as "Sasuke" at first and I was like "wait, when did he get a haircut?". I feel old for still remembering Naruto...


You and me both.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Most writers already mishandle Jason during his guest appearance so that wouldn't be anything new.


Depends on whether you feel that Jason is mishandled now, which most of the time I don't. Also for me seeing him being treated as some sort of mass murdering lunatic in the same vein as the pre-reboot days would be far worse than anything that we've seen recent years. Just my opinion though.

And I agree with those that are saying there needs to be an interview like now.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Welp



And man, I wish we would've gotten an official version of this.



http://www.figurerealm.com/customfig...=view&id=93683

----------


## G-Potion

To be fair, we've seen too little of the new costume to judge.

----------


## Alycat

Oh hey a reader poll that I can agree with for once. The new one looks too meh so far.

----------


## G-Potion

If his helmet is gone as Rise said... then what is it he's wearing under the hood?

----------


## RedBird

> Welp


A surprise to no one, I have barely ever heard a complaint about Jasons full body suit, leather jacket look. At best people just have their own preferences for minor tweaks here and there.




> If his helmet is gone as Rise said... then what is it he's wearing under the hood?


Probably a Jason Voorhees like mask XD

I wouldn't put it past Lobdell to add the little reference considering we're going a bit full blown brutal it seems.

----------


## Rise

He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.

It looks like Jason want to start a thug life. He isn't well prepared and it doesn't seem like he using any of his toys and instead he is depending on his own physical power (I hope he doesn't go around killing people with crowbar because it's too brutal and violent for him).

----------


## G-Potion

> He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.
> 
> It looks like Jason want to start a thug life. He isn't well prepared and it doesn't seem like he using any of his toys and instead he is depending on his own physical power (I hope he doesn't go around killing people with crowbar because it's too brutal and violent for him).


Thanks, Rise. The more I hear, the more I'm impressed with how far they are taking him away from his current state.

----------


## thebluefeline

> He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.
> 
> It looks like Jason want to start a thug life. He isn't well prepared and it doesn't seem like he using any of his toys and instead he is depending on his own physical power (I hope he doesn't go around killing people with crowbar because it's too brutal and violent for him).


This is my fear as well. Was hoping that 'darker' would mean that the story or plot lines would become focused on more mature themes like trafficking, drug trades, killing as a necessary evil, etc. not as in more violent and sort of barbaric actions coming from the character.

----------


## RedBird

> He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.
> 
> It looks like Jason want to start a thug life. He isn't well prepared and it doesn't seem like he using any of his toys and instead he is depending on his own physical power (I hope he doesn't go around killing people with crowbar because it's too brutal and violent for him).


Wow, he's really slumming it huh? No proper full body Kevlar, no proper safely helmet, no proper weapon. What, does Bruce take away his bank account along with his trust? #thestrugglelife XD

I'm kidding around but I agree with you, and I really hope this 'thing' is not long-term by any means.




> This is my fear as well. Was hoping that 'darker' would mean that the story or plot lines would become focused on more mature themes like trafficking, drug trades, killing as a necessary evil, etc. not as in more violent and sort of barbaric actions coming from the character.


*Same here.* Definitely wanted more nitty gritty storylines looking at the ugly side of crime in Gotham or wherever. At best in Jasons case, I would have wanted more morally ambiguous options to come his way and test him, instead of seeing him go full blown brutal as its implied in these solicits.

----------


## Sergard

New hairstyle and no helmet? That's going to be interesting.
As long as he does not dye his hair green and turn into Joker Jr.,  these changes will probably only be of minor interest.
Maybe he lets his hair grow longer like "Batman Ninja" style.

Found that fanart today. It has probably already been posted in the past. But it made me laugh considering the upcoming storyarc.

http://artbybhavya.tumblr.com/post/1...n-fighting-his

----------


## G-Potion

The why and how is important though so I'm not worried just yet.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.
> 
> It looks like Jason want to start a thug life. He isn't well prepared and it doesn't seem like he using any of his toys and instead he is depending on his own physical power (I hope he doesn't go around killing people with crowbar because it's too brutal and violent for him).


Ah, so much for him not having a death wish.  :Stick Out Tongue:  No helmet, no protection or minimal at best, and he's going to be into close quarters fighting. Sounds to me like he wants to be hurt at the same time he's putting the hurt onto others. That's some messed up sh*t.




> This is my fear as well. Was hoping that 'darker' would mean that the story or plot lines would become focused on more mature themes like trafficking, drug trades, killing as a necessary evil, etc. not as in more violent and sort of barbaric actions coming from the character.


Yeah, I was hoping for the same and I'm not to thrilled with this new direction at the moment either although it is possible after a while we will start to get stories the focus on those mature themes. Right now though everything about it screams "dark and edgy" and unfortunately there are a lot of fans out there who aren't reading the book and who feel that Jason has been watered down in recent year who want this "dark, edgy and violent version" back. I could see this temporary direction sticking around long term if sales spike significantly.

----------


## Aioros22

> Welp
> 
> [img]https://i.imgur.com/w5LEAwb.png[/img


I love the helmet/jacket combos but this pool is absolutely meaningless as of yet. For one, we don`t know how long this new direction will be and very likely it won`t be permanent (this is excluding whether Loedbell makes it nuanced and good to strat with) but we only have that cover to analize at, which...doesn`t show his face. 

What was anyone expecting?

----------


## Aioros22

[QUOTE=Rise;3747898]He has a piece covering his mouth and nose and black mask covering his eyes with red lenses.QUOTE]

I like how red lenses is basically a trademark of his at this point.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I love the helmet/jacket combos but this pool is absolutely meaningless as of yet. For one, we don`t know how long this new direction will be and very likely it won`t be permanent (this is excluding whether Loedbell makes it nuanced and good to strat with) but we only have that cover to analize at, which...doesn`t show his face. 
> 
> What was anyone expecting?


Isn't this supposed to be testing ground for a possible RH solo? If it is and does well sales-wise I could see this becoming a permanent direction for him though IF (and granted its a big "if") this new direction pulls in enough of the crowd that believes that Jason has been watered down in recent years and who want Jason to be overly violent, dark, and edgy again. I could see editorial telling Lobdell to stick with this direction long term if sales are significantly higher (say 40k or more and more or less steady) then they have been recently for RHATO and Lobdell would go along with that since its what he wanted to do anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

As long as dark and edgy don't cancel out the feels, which I think with Lobdell it won't, I'm fine with it really.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/221b_mameo

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/221b_mameo


Awww, this is so good. In fact, too good, now I'm just disappointed that this _isn't_ a wip for an upcoming issue.

----------


## Zaresh

> As long as dark and edgy don't cancel out the feels, which I think with Lobdell it won't, I'm fine with it really.


Me too. I hope it also has ups, besides the downs, too. Balanced in the feelings these new stories instill. And I hope it's as well written as has been so far, to be honest.

You know, a book that it's good no matter how Jason drives his life, that doesn't stuck him in a bad place forever, and one that makes the reader feel rewarded. But, well, I'm always a fiery supporter for trying new things; so, even if all these changes frighten me a bit, it's not surprise I'm cautiously supportive until I get to read the actual new issue with that new direction.




> https://twitter.com/221b_mameo


This is cute. Heh, speaking of the devil, a hair cutting scene!

----------


## Aioros22

> Isn't this supposed to be testing ground for a possible RH solo? If it is and does well sales-wise I could see this becoming a permanent direction for him though IF (and granted its a big "if") this new direction pulls in enough of the crowd that believes that Jason has been watered down in recent years and who want Jason to be overly violent, dark, and edgy again. I could see editorial telling Lobdell to stick with this direction long term if sales are significantly higher (say 40k or more and more or less steady) then they have been recently for RHATO and Lobdell would go along with that since its what he wanted to do anyway.


That is well possible and as long the material is good it won`t be mine to complain. I`m just saying the poll is dumb. There is nothing to equate or compare yet.

----------


## Rac7d*

who is jason bringing to the wedding

----------


## The Dying Detective

> who is jason bringing to the wedding


Only two options Faye Gunn Jr. or Artemis I'd go for Artemis especially when the wedding takes place before the Lobdell's story began. Besides if he didn't it would be  sad especially when he fought Anarky and tried to keep Selina and her friends safe.

----------


## G-Potion

Pls put up a good fight Jason.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Pls put up a good fight Jason.


Looks a like shoot out even if Batman doesn't use guns

----------


## G-Potion

Or smoke pellets.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Or smoke pellets.


Yeah there's something to consider.

----------


## Rise

I was just viewing a report about top selling bookscan from 2017 and RHATO VOL 1 is among the best selling and made over $130k for DC.

It seems that fans like it best when the book is grounded and foucsing mostly on Jason. The second arc was about Artemis and since then it become mostly about smart Bizarro which made a lot of people lose interest and this actually explain why they decided to do a solo Red Hood arc.

*I admit that I also lost interest for a while during smart Bizarro arc because I felt it really dragged on and the letters being close to be revealed was what made me interested again, but I still enjoyed it and like Bizarro and Artemis which makes both worried and exicited for the new direction. I hope Lobdell handle it well and for DC to actually give it some attention too.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I was just viewing a report about top selling bookscan from 2017 and RHATO VOL 1 is among the best selling and made over $130k for DC.
> 
> It seems that fans like it best when the book is grounded and foucsing mostly on Jason. The second arc was about Artemis and since then it become mostly about smart Bizarro which made a lot of people lose interest and this actually explain why they decided to do a solo Red Hood arc.
> 
> I admit that I also lost interest for a while during smart Bizarro arc because I felt it really dragged on and the letters being close to be revealed was what made me interested again, but I still enjoyed it and like Bizarro and Artemis which makes both worried and exicited for the new direction, but I hope Lobdell handle it well and for DC to actually give it some attention too.


Our boy is quite the moneymaker if this goes on i doubt Bizarro and Artemis will return.

----------


## Rise

If vol 5 with solo Red Hood arc end up doing really well (since I doubt single issue will suddenly boost up in sales until fans see how it will be handled), I do believe RHATO will be relaunched into a solo series.

----------


## Rise

> Pls put up a good fight Jason.


Well, Batman does seem busted up so I guess it safe to assume that Jason put up a good fight.

Besides, I doubt Bruce will be that harsh with him unless he giving him a hard time himself (Jason was literally shooting at him from other pic Soy posted after all).

----------


## The Dying Detective

> If vol 5 with solo Red Hood arc end up doing really well (since I doubt single issue will suddenly boost up in sales until fans see how it will be handled), I do believe RHATO will be relaunched into a solo series.


Could be I wonder how DC plans to build a supporting cast for Jason if it does go that way? THen again you already have Ma Gunn and her granddaughter that's a good start.

----------


## G-Potion

> Could be I wonder how DC plans to build a supporting cast for Jason if it does go that way? THen again you already have Ma Gunn and her granddaughter that's a good start.


He has plenty. There are several from the All Caste that can be better utilized like Essence and S'Aru.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He has plenty. There are several from the All Caste that can be better utilized like Essence and S'Aru.


But Lobdell's first run was divisive sometimes bringing back the old elements can spark ire. But if that's what's necessary to accomplish building a good supporting cast for Jason why not?

----------


## Sergard

> He has plenty. There are several from the All Caste that can be better utilized like Essence and S'Aru.


Are there more from the All Caste alive? Isn't everyone else dead?
I like the All Caste, especially Ducra. She was a good mentor for Jason. I wish she was still alive. She accepted Jason for who he was and gave him guidance.

----------


## Rise

He has Gabby, Essence, Ma Gunn, Fey jr, Amal (Crux), S'Aru and that woman from RH/A.

And honestly, you can keep Bizarro too since he considered an original clone for the book and Artemis can also can appear from time to time.

----------


## G-Potion

> Are there more from the All Caste alive? Isn't everyone else dead?
> I like the All Caste, especially Ducra. She was a good mentor for Jason. I wish she was still alive. She accepted Jason for who he was and gave him guidance.


Last we saw them, Essence and S'Aru were starting to rebuild the All Caste so there could be new faces in the future. Ducra even though is dead but her spirit lives on so it's easy enough to have her pop in and out of Jason's consciousness like she did in the old RHATO#18.

----------


## G-Potion

> But Lobdell's first run was divisive sometimes bringing back the old elements can spark ire. But if that's what's necessary to accomplish building a good supporting cast for Jason why not?


Doesn't stop Lobdell from bringing back Roy and Suzie Su.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/wnsdls

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Doesn't stop Lobdell from bringing back Roy and Suzie Su.


Yeah the first tip off that Lobdell was not afraid to bring back elements from his first run was the All Blades.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah the first tip off that Lobdell was not afraid to bring back elements from his first run was the All Blades.


Speaking of which, the only weapons that Batman can't take away from him.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Speaking of which, the only weapons that Batman can't take away from him.


What would happen if Batman tried though? And if that's the case Jason has a great advantage in the upcoming fight.

----------


## G-Potion

> What would happen if Batman tried though? And if that's the case Jason has a great advantage in the upcoming fight.


He can only summon All-Blades against pure evil, or magical beings iirc.

----------


## magpieM

> Speaking of which, the only weapons that Batman can't take away from him.


To be honest, if he is not going to use guns in the new direction, I'd rather see him using all-blades as a regular weapon instead of _the crowbar_. I hope the latter is just for some particular targets when he want to send a message

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> To be honest, if he is not going to use guns in the new direction, I'd rather see him using all-blades as a regular weapon instead of _the crowbar_. I hope the latter is just for some particular targets when he want to send a message


As Potion points out, the blades can only be used against magical/mystical threats. Being able to be used against anything is one of the few things Lobdell has ever retconned (or rather reinstated) on his run.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> He can only summon All-Blades against pure evil, or magical beings iirc.


But Batman is neither so Jason can't use it.

----------


## Ssstammerer

I dunno if this has been posted or asked before, but, why are Mattel and DC Collectibles taking so long to release a new Jason figure?

----------


## SpentShrimp

I'm pretty excited for this new run with Jason going solo. I like that Lobdell is going this way. Some people seem to be thinking this is a regression, but we haven't seen the story play out yet.

----------


## EMarie

> I dunno if this has been posted or asked before, but, why are Mattel and DC Collectibles taking so long to release a new Jason figure?


No idea. Maybe there's a way to email them about it?

As for the solo bit I'm not convinced yet that this is the permanent direction. I'll look at it properly once this issue is out.

----------


## RedBird

Well Jasons certainly a deluded nutjob in mother panic, with all his *I* am the chosen one nonsense. 
*spoilers:*
I _think_ he's planning to revive old Gotham by terrorizing it and making it need a Batman again (him).
*end of spoilers* though even with the addition of this 'crazy Jason' usage (one of my pet peeves and something I most certainly DIDN'T want from this title and arc) I must admit, I'm _still_ enjoying this book, weird.

----------


## G-Potion

Welp this Jason is all kinds of twisted with his plan to use the kid and Crane.

----------


## Sergard

I have seen a review on "Teen Titans Special #1" showing Black Mask in a sauna.
Did I miss something? I thought he is still kinda braindead from the incident in the first RHatO arc.

----------


## G-Potion

> I have seen a review on "Teen Titans Special #1" showing Black Mask in a sauna.
> Did I miss something? I thought he is still kinda braindead from the incident in the first RHatO arc.


Was wondering about that too. But it's not the first time continuity is ignored so...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

As always, the cover has the subtlety of a brick to the face

----------


## G-Potion

So it says Jason will kill? Does it concern Penguin as well?

----------


## Sergard

There is zero chance that Penguin is going to die. He is a too famous Batman villain that DC would allow him dying in a comic like RHatO.
... what doesn't mean that Jason can't at least try to shoot him (and gets probably stopped by Batman). The cover makes me wonder if Jason is the one (or only one) who wants to kill someone in the issue. Maybe Bizarro or Artemis will even interfere in the upcoming conflict.

----------


## G-Potion

If Biz and Artemis are involved then it's a wonder that Jason gets beat up as badly as we see him in the Annual teaser.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You know, there's an awful lot of stuff that issue 24 has to tackle so the new status quo makes sense.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You know, there's an awful lot of stuff that issue 24 has to tackle so the new status quo makes sense.


There is issue #25 and the annual in August before the status quo changes in September though so I think those issues could also tackle some of that stuff. I'm not sure issue #24 needs to be the one that tackles all of it.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> There is issue #25 and the annual in August before the status quo changes in September though so I think those issues could also tackle some of that stuff. I'm not sure issue #24 needs to be the one that tackles all of it.


I hope it can tackle everything.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Issue 24 at the very least has to deal with Jason killing someone so the conflict in 25 and the annual make sense.

----------


## magpieM

Another thing is that they need to give Bizarro a proper 'end' before Jason goes solo. I can't imagine that Jason would leave Bizarro alone if he is still alive at the moment, no matter he's smart or back to 'normal'. Will he just let Artemis keep taking care of him, or send him back to Lex Luthor?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Another thing is that they need to give Bizarro a proper 'end' before Jason goes solo. I can't imagine that Jason would leave Bizarro alone if he is still alive at the moment, no matter he's smart or back to 'normal'. Will he just let Artemis keep taking care of him, or send him back to Lex Luthor?


Artemis will be heading over to Wonder Woman's corner where she will be leading the Amazons of Bana-Migdhall to war so no. Whatever it is that happens to Bizarro i'm betting Jason might leave him in Ma Gunn's care once they get her out of that snow globe.

----------


## Sergard

In issue #18 H.I.V.E. Queen said to Jason that there is something buried in his subconsciousness what he can't accept. I wonder if this is part of the Willis story or meant for something completely else.
At least I can't remember that there was a conclusion to that scene, especially since Bizarro interfered.

----------


## EMarie

> In issue #18 H.I.V.E. Queen said to Jason that there is something buried in his subconsciousness what he can't accept. I wonder if this is part of the Willis story or meant for something completely else.
> At least I can't remember that there was a conclusion to that scene, especially since Bizarro interfered.


From what I remember when that issue hit there was a online source claiming it had to do with Jason's resurrection.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> From what I remember when that issue hit there was a online source claiming it had to do with Jason's resurrection.


Perhaps we could see it play out in this new story direction especillay when it's clear the All-Caste are still around courtesy of the All-Blades. Maybe they might have a hand in it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Issue 24 at the very least has to deal with Jason killing someone so the conflict in 25 and the annual make sense.


I never said issue #24 didn't have to deal with some things and I think it's pretty obvious that it would have to deal with at least that one thing. I just don't happen to think it needs to deal with EVERY little thing when there are two other issues (one of which is an annual with more pages) before the status quo shake up is all.

----------


## Rac7d*

Jason used to be blonde?

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Jason used to be blonde?


I think it had something to do with how Grant Morrison characterised him during Batman and Robin. Or was he a red-head in that one?

----------


## EMarie

Isn't 24 supposed to be the issue Starfire and Arsenal "kinda" appear? Maybe we'll get a flashback?

----------


## Kaled

Originally Posted by the Dying Detective



> Originally Posted by Rac7d*  
> Jason used to be blonde?
> I think it had something to do with how Grant Morrison characterised him during Batman and Robin. Or was he a red-head in that one?


I believe when Jason Todd was first introduced  (Before COIE) he was blond and dyed it after becoming Robin.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Isn't 24 supposed to be the issue Starfire and Arsenal "kinda" appear? Maybe we'll get a flashback?


I think they're in the annual.

----------


## G-Potion

> I never said issue #24 didn't have to deal with some things and I think it's pretty obvious that it would have to deal with at least that one thing. I just don't happen to think it needs to deal with EVERY little thing when there are two other issues (one of which is an annual with more pages) before the status quo shake up is all.


IIRC #25 is also a double sized issue so we get like 80 pages of Jason in August.

----------


## EMarie

> I think they're in the annual.


I know Roy will be there but I remember someone, maybe Soy, say this awhile back.

----------


## G-Potion

> I know Roy will be there but I remember someone, maybe Soy, say this awhile back.


Lobdell said it in a reply on Instagram i think.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Originally Posted by the Dying Detective
> 
> I believe when Jason Todd was first introduced  (Before COIE) he was blond and dyed it after becoming Robin.


to look more like dick grayson  lol

----------


## EMarie

> Lobdell said it in a reply on Instagram i think.


Right. Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes in the comic.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason Ikemen figure is out now in Japan

https://twitter.com/sin_0311bat/stat...33081766719488

----------


## G-Potion

“バットマンを愛し、そして憎んだ男” 
The guy who loves and hates Batman. Japan really knows how to put it. 

I swear every time I see new photos of him, he looks more effeminate than the last time.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'll tell you how he looks once mine finally arrives.

----------


## adrikito

> Jason Ikemen figure is out now in Japan
> 
> https://twitter.com/sin_0311bat/stat...33081766719488


I liked the figure.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason Ikemen figure is out now in Japan
> 
> https://twitter.com/sin_0311bat/stat...33081766719488


Mine arrived just yesterday, I love it, its got a pretty magnetic base too that has the rh logo on it. Dont know why I didnt notice that before in the promo images.

EDIT: JasonIKM.jpg

I really like the shading on the clothing, I find too many figures can't pull off realistic folds like that.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice, Red!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Mine arrived just yesterday, I love it, its got a pretty magnetic base too that has the rh logo on it. Dont know why I didnt notice that before in the promo images.
> 
> EDIT: JasonIKM.jpg
> 
> I really like the shading on the clothing, I find too many figures can't pull off realistic folds like that.


Cool.
I think it looks better than in the preview images, but that may be the light in the room.

----------


## RedBird

> Cool.
> I think it looks better than in the preview images, but that may be the light in the room.


Yeah maybe, ha, sorry bout the poor quality photo guys. I should make sure to take photos during the day and not at night. My phone sucks at night photos.
But yeah, I think the figure looks just as good if not better than the preview images displayed too  :Big Grin: 

I know I said it before but I really like the subtle shading on the suit, and if you guys have seen the Nightwing Ikemen figure, (which for some reason looks more grey in the suit than black) side by side the Red Hood figure is two shades darker and looks more straight up black on both the suit and even the hair. I don't know if that was necessarily a stylistic choice or a later change in the shade selection for this series, but I'm glad for the choice regardless since the darker black makes the reds and browns and white in his suit and hair really pop.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Sharing my Jason Todd display at Trinity Con 2018!

----------


## Zaresh

Damn, chibi Arkham Knight is so cute.

----------


## G-Potion

Hopefully this is not the last we see of his Red Hood Ninja.

----------


## Aioros22

Perfection, thy name is Soy!

----------


## RedBird

Some more Reed Hood 
nockuth



xylo_bee

----------


## RedBird

kame_eimei



aonolime



metale1020

----------


## oasis1313

I'd love an ongoing Batman Ninja book with more images like this.  I can't decide if I like Jason with a muzzle better than Jason with a lampshade on his head.

----------


## Rise

I found this pic and I was impressed.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I found this pic and I was impressed.


waha this is awesome xD

----------


## Rise

Some interesting stuff regrading Jason I have found.

Pete Woods has been hinting that he is doing RHATO since April and said it involve a lot of punching.

Murphy (who did WK) said he is a fan of Red Hood and would to love to revisit Jason again in his batverse.

Campell who did the joint variant of bat characters for #50 said that he really wanted to include fan favourite Red Hood, but the pic was getting too crowded (which was interesting of him to reveal since I haven't seen much of complain from Jason fans about why he wasn't included and more from Damian fans).

Both Cameron Cuffe and Lewis Tan have said that they want to play Jason Todd/Red Hood when they were asked which DC character they want to play. 

Remember the titans leak G linked months ago? It actually line up with the first episode leak of Titans. The leaker has revealed that WB are interested in doing a Red Hood show which is why Jason in titans to set him up.

----------


## Zaresh

> I found this pic and I was impressed.


That's a new level of fanhood.




> Some interesting stuff regrading Jason I have found.
> 
> Pete Woods has been hinting that he is doing RHATO since April and said it involve a lot of punching.
> 
> Murphy (who did WK) said he is a fan of Red Hood and would to love to revisit Jason again in his batverse.
> 
> Campell who did the joint variant of bat characters for #50 said that he really wanted to include fan favourite Red Hood, but the pic was getting too crowded (which was interesting of him to reveal since I haven't seen much of complain from Jason fans about why he wasn't included and more from Damian fans).
> 
> Both Cameron Cuffe and Lewis Tan have said that they want to play Jason Todd/Red Hood when they were asked which DC character they want to play. 
> ...


Would make sense if they are trying the solo pitch now, in advance of an eventual series in two years or so.

Besides, this kind of puts the book in a very safe place,

----------


## Rise

Could be. The fact that some actors who are connected to DC have suddenly expressed interest could mean that there have been some talk about possible series with him.

WB seem more interested in Red Hood than DC comics which is a good thing because they are better in handling him anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

> aonolime


Nice! I can't get enough of this version of him.

----------


## G-Potion

> Would make sense if they are trying the solo pitch now, in advance of an eventual series in two years or so.
> 
> Besides, this kind of puts the book in a very safe place,


Plus, from the tumblr source, they sound very pessimistic about all Bat books but their fate in RHATO is still pretty strong. I wish people wouldn't be too quick to say Jason's regressing yada yada and don't give it a chance.

----------


## G-Potion

> Remember the titans leak G linked months ago? It actually line up with the first episode leak of Titans. The leaker has revealed that WB are interested in doing a Red Hood show which is why Jason in titans to set him up.


Regarding Jason, was he mentioned in the new leak?

----------


## JasonTodd428

I can't get enough of those Reed Hood fan arts people have been posting. I can't wait to see more of them and that car is awesome.

I'm also glad to hear that WB wants to do a Red Hood show. I'm so down for that. 

@G At this point the only Bat book I still have an interest is RHATO. I sure as heck trust Lobdell far more than the rest of the Bat writers at the moment.

----------


## Jovos2099

What I would love to have is a painting of all the different  Jasons together bombshells Arkham Knight Injustice all together.

----------


## Jovos2099

I'm sure it's been asked before but what do you guys think would have happened if Jason had never died?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

From DC Nation #02

----------


## Celgress

Looks interesting, I hope this confrontation lives up to the hype.  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> Looks interesting, I hope this confrontation lives up to the hype.


The Anakin x Ben bout we never got to truly see xD

"You were the chosen one, Kid!"

"Look at all the fvcks I give old man, look!"

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm sure it's been asked before but what do you guys think would if Jason had never died?


Good question since there were two endings for Death In The Family. 

I get the feeling he was still supposed to leave the role after recovering but Starlin only stayed one more issue, so who knows what they had in mind.

----------


## Rise

> The Anakin x Ben bout we never got to truly see xD
> 
> "You were the chosen one, Kid!"
> 
> "Look at all the fvcks I give old man, look!"


"You supposed to arrest criminals, not kill them!"

"I HATE YOU"

"You were my son, Jason. I loved you".

Tho, Batman better not cut off Jason's limbs and let him burn while telling him that he loved him (it's never a good way to tell someone you love them while they are burning, kids).

----------


## Aahz

> Good question since there were two endings for Death In The Family. 
> 
> I get the feeling he was still supposed to leave the role after recovering but Starlin only stayed one more issue, so who knows what they had in mind.


I think they would have brought him back very soon, the Higher Ups wanted to have a Robin, which led to Starling getting fired, and Tim Drake getting created that soon after Death in the Family.

----------


## kaimaciel

Why do I get the feeling everyone is gonna be mad at Bruce at the end of this? 

Also, I wonder what Bruce will tell the rest of the family afterward and whether he wants them to capture Jason and send him to either Blackgate or Arkham again. I wanna know what the Batboys will think of this.

----------


## Celgress

> ...Tho, Batman better not cut off Jason's limbs and let him burn while telling him that he loved him (it's never a good way to tell someone you love them while they are burning, kids).


I don't know. Cyborg Arkham Knight could be epic.  :Cool:  :Cool:  :Cool:

----------


## Aioros22

> I think they would have brought him back very soon, the Higher Ups wanted to have a Robin, which led to Starling getting fired, and Tim Drake getting created that soon after Death in the Family.


Don`t take it the wrong way because it`s not mockery but from now on I will refer to the gentleman as Starling  :Big Grin:

----------


## AJpyro

> Good question since there were two endings for Death In The Family. 
> 
> I get the feeling he was still supposed to leave the role after recovering but Starlin only stayed one more issue, so who knows what they had in mind.


WOnder what new code name he would've gotten. Don't think he would continued the bird motif. Would his attitude lead him joining a SUper group like CHeckmate?

----------


## Zaresh

> The Anakin x Ben bout we never got to truly see xD
> 
> "You were the chosen one, Kid!"
> 
> "Look at all the fvcks I give old man, look!"





> "You supposed to arrest criminals, not kill them!"
> 
> "I HATE YOU"
> 
> "You were my son, Jason. I loved you".
> 
> Tho, Batman better not cut off Jason's limbs and let him burn while telling him that he loved him (it's never a good way to tell someone you love them while they are burning, kids).


I shouldn't had laughted, but I did.

Damn.
So I AM going to hate Bruce again, right? Ok, whatever. It looks like they're making him grumpy and isolating him from everyone else in other books so, what can we do?

----------


## Zaresh

> WOnder what new code name he would've gotten. Don't think he would continued the bird motif. Would his attitude lead him joining a SUper group like CHeckmate?


I think that he would've go civilian, because all the trauma and injuries and them wanting Batman to be alone.

----------


## G-Potion

Since Jason seems to be free going on   a trip with Roy, either Bizarro and Artemis will pick him up and away at the end of the fight, or Bruce couldn't bring himself to imprison Jason.

An angry and betrayed Batman vs a hurt and confused Jason. _Pain pain pain_.

----------


## Talon1load

He heard that Bruce kneeled down and prayed with Joker and now he’s pissed.

----------


## kiwiliko

A fact I will never stop finding hilarious
Most people about characters they like: 

"A blessed cinnamon roll, I want to see them succeed and be happy."


The Jason thread:



> a hurt and confused Jason. _Pain pain pain_.

----------


## G-Potion

> A fact I will never stop finding hilarious
> Most people about characters they like: 
> 
> "A blessed cinnamon roll, I want to see them succeed and be happy."
> 
> 
> The Jason thread:


Let's be honest we thrive on this.   :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

> I'm sure it's been asked before but what do you guys think would if Jason had never died?


That could have gone several ways depending on how severe Jason's injuries were.
If he was in a coma or received some permanent damage, there would still have been a chance for Tim Drake to step in and to take over the Robin mantle.
Or Jason would have left Bruce because he didn't believe in Batman anymore, etc.
Or Jason would have been Robin again and basically would have done everything Tim Drake did.

----------


## G-Potion

jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com

----------


## thebluefeline

> A fact I will never stop finding hilarious
> Most people about characters they like: 
> 
> "A blessed cinnamon roll, I want to see them succeed and be happy."
> 
> 
> The Jason thread:


I'm not going to lie, I tend to gravitate towards these specific kinds of characters in every fandom I've been to. There should be a label for them. The 'I want them to be happy but also give them more angst' tag is too long ;D

----------


## Aioros22

It`s not sodomy, it`s about the Hero`s Journey. I do want my characters happy but I also want them to thrive against Hydras. 

And the anti-hero in particular, has a darker theme to thrive on, so by proxy, it`s more painful.

----------


## RedBird

> It`s not sodomy


Lol uhhh what? I think you may be using the wrong word there.

Though I agree with the rest of your statement  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aioros22

No, no, I`m going all the way in on that cinammon roll pretense  :Big Grin: 

Yeah, masochist, sleep all seven hours, kids.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Lol uhhh what? I think you may be using the wrong word there.
> 
> Though I agree with the rest of your statement


lmao. Oh my God.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Let's be honest we thrive on this.


Confirmed. Tumblr always yell "Let my son be happy!" if DC gives Jason a hard time but buy them anyway and yell "I need more Jason angst!" when trying to find fanfiction. Then I was like "why are you like this"

----------


## Zaresh

> A fact I will never stop finding hilarious
> Most people about characters they like: 
> 
> "A blessed cinnamon roll, I want to see them succeed and be happy."
> 
> 
> The Jason thread:


We enjoy our suffering more than the suffering from others (unless they're fictional characters, or obnoxious trolls with no bridges). Nothing wrong with it!
Nah, it's probably just that we love to see the characters we like get over their struggles, and be made more interesting, better, deeper character out of all that process.


Maybe.
It's a hard balance we live in. A thrilling balance.
Definitely some masochism in the works here.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Ikemen figure is larger than I expected.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice collection, Dark! How do you like the Ikemen one?

----------


## G-Potion

Yes you

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Nice collection, Dark! How do you like the Ikemen one?


Is pretty good but not a fan of the white streak.


Anyways, this made me laugh



https://ninalinovna.tumblr.com/post/...other-to-other

----------


## Zaresh

> Yes you


Oh, I just saw this one in his Insta. Pretty nice. I guess he will keep drawing art of him. I hope, more so xD.

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyways, this made me laugh
> 
> 
> 
> https://ninalinovna.tumblr.com/post/...other-to-other


My god. I wish I could see the expression on the silhouettes. Confused? Unimpressed?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Agent Z

So looks like Jason will be showing up in the Titans live action show 

http://titanstv.net/titans-more-seas...tles-revealed/

----------


## G-Potion

> So looks like Jason will be showing up in the Titans live action show 
> 
> http://titanstv.net/titans-more-seas...tles-revealed/


Yeah this was known for a while and according to on-set witness, he'll be in 2 episodes or so.

----------


## G-Potion

Have you guys seen the rumor regarding Roy, both in RHATO and Heroes in Crisis?

----------


## Sergard

> Have you guys seen the rumor regarding Roy, both in RHATO and Heroes in Crisis?


If the rumor is true, then I am glad that it did not happen. I hate stories where a character death is solely used to push another - more popular - character in a certain direction. That's the lowest of low you can do in story-telling.

----------


## G-Potion

> If the rumor is true, then I am glad that it did not happen. I hate stories where a character death is solely used to push another - more popular - character in a certain direction. That's the lowest of low you can do in story-telling.


Yeah I don't want it to happen either but if it does, at least it's not from Lobdell's hands. l don't fancy seeing him bear the brunt of the outrage from it.

----------


## Sergard

> Is pretty good but not a fan of the white streak.
> 
> 
> Anyways, this made me laugh
> 
> 
> 
> https://ninalinovna.tumblr.com/post/...other-to-other


For everyone who does not know: This is a quote from the SNL sketch "Pet Rescue Commercial". Here is the video with timestamp (at 3:28).

----------


## Zaresh

> So looks like Jason will be showing up in the Titans live action show 
> 
> http://titanstv.net/titans-more-seas...tles-revealed/


So the last two are about Dick. I guess they will be about Nightwing, the Robin mantle and Bruce too, and Jason by extension. Was it confirmed that he appears in just two episodes, or that he will appear in at least two?

----------


## G-Potion

> So the last two are about Dick. I guess they will be about Nightwing, the Robin mantle and Bruce too, and Jason by extension. Was it confirmed that he appears in just two episodes, or that he will appear in at least two?


On-set witness said he'll be in 7 and the finale.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TitansTV/co...apped_filming/

----------


## Zaresh

> On-set witness said he'll be in 7 and the finale.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TitansTV/co...apped_filming/


So at least two, and I guess there could be more but we just don't have witnesses on those.
Good.

----------


## Aioros22

> If the rumor is true, then I am glad that it did not happen. I hate stories where a character death is solely used to push another - more popular - character in a certain direction. That's the lowest of low you can do in story-telling


What is the rumor about? Someone of the old Outlaws will die based on that Nation "suspects" bit?

----------


## G-Potion

> What is the rumor about? Someone of the old Outlaws will die based on that Nation "suspects" bit?


Kinda.


*spoilers:*
Part of the shift in the series was planned to come from Roy dying in combat against some drug dealers and Lobdell has been writing this event into his plot since January. But now that Roy is seemingly part of Heroes in Crisis with King completely ignoring Lobdell's plot. Also fun fact, Roy dying was mandated by Johns, he was originally meant to rejoin the Outlaws.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rise

Why would Roy dying affect Jason so much and play a major role in his change? These two haven't talk since the end of RH/A and while I could see Jason being upest about it, I don't see him being really devastated over it.

Honestly, I'm glad that there have been changes because I don't want Roy to either die in RHATO or rejoin the team.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Why would Roy dying affect Jason so much and play a major role in his change? These two haven't talk since the end of RH/A and while I could see Jason being upest about it, I don't see him being really devastated over it.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad that there have been changes because I don't want Roy to either die in RHATO or rejoin the team.


I understand why it would affect him, but why would Lobdell have to start working it in since January? 

I have no idea if that rumor is true, but if so, then that's one good thing King did, since it sounds terrible.

----------


## Rise

I don't know. Jason was upest when he thought Bruce was dead after Endgame, but it didn't affect him in major way that brought change to him. So, why would Roy when the two parted in bad terms and haven't spoken to each others ever since?

It's like how Morrison unintentionally saved Jason from the red robin mantle by creating new Robin which resulted in giving it to Tim instead.

----------


## G-Potion

@okiedokiewo:

If King wants Roy for HC just to kill him off then it's not a good thing at all. The only good it does is that Lobdell doesn't have to do it.

----------


## G-Potion

@Rise:

*spoilers:*
Eh I think with the right circumstance it can still affect Jason that much. Firstly while they parted on bad terms, it wasn't due to the lack of love so I can imagine strong lingering feelings between them. Secondly the manner in which Roy's killed maybe? Jason has already tipped the scale enough to have an angry Batman go after him. Whatever might happen to Roy, it would only be the last straw. That said, RHATO or HC, they'd better not kill him off. That is just dumb.

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Rise

I would buy the strong lingering feelings between them if they had Roy bothering at all and mentioning Jason at least once since they parted, but they didn't. I like Roy, but he doesn't deserve to be a reason for Jason to change.

I can see the thing with his father affecting him big time, Bizarro lying to him all these time would shake his faith in his team and his fight with Bruce would be the last straw. No need for Roy to be part of it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> @okiedokiewo:
> 
> If King wants Roy for HC just to kill him off then it's not a good thing at all. The only good it does is that Lobdell doesn't have to do it.


I don't see where the rumor says he wants to kill him off.

----------


## Sergard

At least there is a small chance that Arsenal will die in HC. That's from DC Nation #2. It says that two characters will be murdered. And let's suppose these characters will really die then there are a lot of characters one can already dismiss as potential victims like Wonder Woman, Superman, Lex Luthor, Kyle Rayner, Nightwing, etc. which are way too popular. Many have there own books and there is no way the authors of said books would give their okay to let their characters be killed in another comic.


DC Nation #2 Heroes in Crisis.jpg

I also have to say that I'm already a little bit disappointed in HC. I really thought first that the main focus would be on the psychological pressure of being a hero/anti-hero/vigilante. But it reads more like a murder mystery dinner party.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't see where the rumor says he wants to kill him off.


*spoilers:*
Well he is in HC, and with his current state (sad, no team, no plan) he doesn't look as safe as some of the people in the same list do. There's also a separate rumor for this by the way. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Zaresh

> At least there is a small chance that Arsenal will die in HC. That's from DC Nation #2. It says that two characters will be murdered. And let's suppose these characters will really die then there are a lot of characters one can already dismiss as potential victims like Wonder Woman, Superman, Lex Luthor, Kyle Rayner, Nightwing, etc. which are way too popular. Many have there own books and there is no way the authors of said books would give their okay to let their characters be killed in another comic.
> 
> 
> Attachment 68005
> 
> I also have to say that I'm already a little bit disappointed in HC. I really thought first that the main focus would be on the psychological pressure of being a hero/anti-hero/vigilante. But it reads more like a murder mystery dinner party.


I didn't read Identity Crisis, but, isn't all DC universe circumstances now a bit reminiscent of how they were at that time? And then this Heroes on Crisis storyline reminds me of what I know about IC. Funny.

Tim Drake is there in that pic. If they kill him, I'm going to start taking this as real bullying on a fictional character . Same as for Roy. Both characters don't have anithing going on for them right know and their fan bases aren't really big (well, Roy isn't; Tim is debatable). So killing any of them could mean their death for at least a lustrum, which isn't fair to the fanbases that, currently, aren't pleased with their character's recent years of stories. Unless they bring them back within the very same plot of HC.

I mean, you can put them on cold, but killing them is a bit mean move. Not every dead character has the luck that Jason Todd or Bucky Barnes had, and killing a "lead league" character often doesn't do good to them, I think.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/A_sebury

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/A_sebury

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/A_sebury


Too cute. Oh, god, too cute.

----------


## Aioros22

> Why would Roy dying affect Jason so much and play a major role in his change? These two haven't talk since the end of RH/A and while I could see Jason being upest about it, I don't see him being really devastated over it.
> 
> Honestly, I'm glad that there have been changes because I don't want Roy to either die in RHATO or rejoin the team.


He clearly still cares for Roy, hence why he promptly asks for him to the Croc. He would be absolutely down as long he was written by Loedbell and adding all the recent developments that would just be one more thing to send him over the edge. 

I still don`t want Roy to die, either by Loedbell in RATHO or this seemingly Identity Crisis 2.0 by King but_ if_ they gonna do it I rather it was done in the actual RATHO out of the two.

----------


## magpieM

> https://twitter.com/A_sebury


Oh they are so cute! Who is he giving the flowers to?

----------


## thebluefeline

Scott Lobdell might be leaving the book after the solo arc.

----------


## G-Potion

Fuck no. Link please?

----------


## thebluefeline

http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996

Sad day if this is true.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah. I have little fate that DC knows or cares who's the next best writer to handle Jason, much less in this delicate transitioning stage of his character.

However, the HiC bit in this rumor conflicts with another rumor so not sure how much truth in either of them.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Yeah. I have little fate that DC knows or cares who's the next best writer to handle Jason, much less in this delicate transitioning stage of his character.
> 
> However, the HiC bit in this rumor conflicts with another rumor so not sure how much truth in either of them.


*spoilers:*
Could be Roy's death is caused by Clayface and Hunter Zolomon ends up offing Ray Palmer and Kyle Rayner. Think that was the three deaths that were supposed to occur after all and all three take place during the HiC event. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

> *spoilers:*
> Could be Roy's death is caused by Clayface and Hunter Zolomon ends up offing Ray Palmer and Kyle Rayner. Think that was the three deaths that were supposed to occur after all and all three take place during the HiC event. 
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Wait I thought there was supposed to be two deaths.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## thebluefeline

> *spoilers:*
> Wait I thought there was supposed to be two deaths.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Ah my bad. Just checked the poster again, thought it was three. I really hope Roy isn't getting killed then >< I'm not keen on the Suicide Squad titans idea either so I hope it gets scrapped or the newest rumors end up being false 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## JasonTodd428

Honestly I don't consider 4Chan to be a good source even for rumors. Having said that though it there is any truth to any of them it seems that with Lee in charge instead of Johns we're back to the N52 grim dark edgy BS again. I really hope none of this is true but I've not had a good feeling about DC of late either.

@Dark any news on the possibility of Lobdell leaving the book that you can confirm would be nice.

----------


## Zaresh

> http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996
> 
> Sad day if this is true.


I don't know why, maybe it doesn't align with how I usually read legit leak there, but I don't trust those spoilers much.

In any case, if true, it will be sad, becase besides leaving the book in a delicate point, it feels like he was really telling a bigger, longer story. And I was liking it so far.

----------


## kaimaciel

> http://boards.4chan.org/co/thread/101588996
> 
> Sad day if this is true.


I don't know... it could be true. Apparently Happy Death Day is getting a sequel and Lobdell could be writing it and wanting to focus more on screenwriting.

----------


## Rise

It's not like writing comic is time consuming especially for monthly series. I remember a writer said (I don't remember if it's Lobdell or someone else) that it only takes 3 days at most.

Beside, what's up with linking to 4chan lately? Just have a little patience and wait to see what happen.

----------


## Zaresh

> It's not like writing comic is time consuming especially for monthly series. I remember a writer said (I don't remember if it's Lobdell or someone else) that it only takes 3 days at most.
> 
> Beside, what's up with linking to 4chan lately? Just have a little patience and wait to see what happen.


I agree, with both statements. Besides, didn't he write that movie while he was doing several books at the same time? I mean, he probably had more time for the first script, but still.

Let's wait. It's not like it will take a lot of time of waiting for see how much of a truth or a lie these bits are.

----------


## thebluefeline

> It's not like writing comic is time consuming especially for monthly series. I remember a writer said (I don't remember if it's Lobdell or someone else) that it only takes 3 days at most.
> 
> Beside, what's up with linking to 4chan lately? Just have a little patience and wait to see what happen.


Just theorizing and speculating for the future, not really taking anything as valid yet. + the wait for comic con is too long this year .-.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's not like writing comic is time consuming especially for monthly series. I remember a writer said (I don't remember if it's Lobdell or someone else) that it only takes 3 days at most.
> 
> Beside, what's up with linking to 4chan lately? Just have a little patience and wait to see what happen.


Normally I would be more patient but as of now I'm a bit invested in Roy's fate and even the tumblr source is being critical of what's going on with DC. Apologize for bringing up these rumors for discussion.

----------


## RedBird

claytonhenry

----------


## G-Potion

Nice! Looks more like his N52 costume though. Maybe that's the point?

----------


## Sergard

> claytonhenry


Nice thighs.

Regarding the rumors about Lobdell leaving after the next arc, I hope they are not true. I have really been looking forward to Lobdell's explanation how Jason got resurrected.
On the other hand I am still hoping that no one - not Roy, not Joker's Daughter or anyone else - has to die just so that Jason can throw an emotional tantrum.

----------


## Rise

Variant cover for issue 26.

I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Variant cover for issue 26.
> 
> I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.


His helmet looks like a skull but this is beautiful *_*

----------


## kaimaciel

> Variant cover for issue 26.
> 
> I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.


 OMG! That's a great cover!!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Variant cover for issue 26.
> 
> I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.


Amazing cover. 10/10. Issue 26 you say? I thought they would use his new outfit instead. Who is the artist by the way?

----------


## Rise

Yasmine Putri. The same one who did the great variant with Jason and Bruce for next month issue.

----------


## RedBird

> Variant cover for issue 26.
> 
> I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.


WOW
I love it! Its gorgeous!
10/10
I'm Sooooo glad to see more of Yasmines work! All of the covers I've ever seen from her have been absolutely beautiful, so glad to see her on rhato, hopefully she will stick around for at least 6 issues, that's about the standard for variant artists, right?  :Big Grin: 

EDIT: Honestly it gets better the more I stare at it. I think I REALLY want this as a poster.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> His helmet looks like a skull but this is beautiful *_*


His helmet is disolving like a decaying body to its bones, because he will lose everything. It's the death of the former hood.
I think.

----------


## Aioros22

"To be or not to Be"

That is the bullet.

----------


## kaimaciel

I wonder... since the coffin was empty, I'm guessing Willis is alive and will most likely meet Jason, who will be now completely isolated from the Bat Family. I wonder if he will try to reconnect with Jason only to reveal himself to be a villain at the end. That's my prediction.

----------


## G-Potion

If he turns out to be a villain, then they could make Solitary a post-experiment Willis for more punch and creepy factor.

----------


## Aioros22

FYI kiddos but there is a reference to Jay in Plastic Man #2  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> FYI kiddos but there is a reference to Jay in Plastic Man #2


Do share, man.  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

Plastic man befriends an orphan street kid who he believes was later kidnapped by Batman, and when explaining the incident to some allies, THIS panel happens.
boosted.JPG

----------


## G-Potion

> Plastic man befriends an orphan street kid who he believes was later kidnapped by Batman, and when explaining the incident to some allies, THIS panel happens.
> Attachment 68126


Thanks, Red!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So here's from the man himself

----------


## G-Potion

YESSSS!!!! You're a godsend, Dark!  :Big Grin:

----------


## kiwiliko

> Plastic man befriends an orphan street kid who he believes was later kidnapped by Batman, and when explaining the incident to some allies, THIS panel happens.
> Attachment 68126


Heh, that is true though. Who knows what kind of rumours must have spread from Jason's previous network in the streets after knowing he was nabbed stealing tires.

----------


## Rise

> So here's from the man himself


Glad to hear it. I disgree with some choices he made, but he is the only guy I trust with Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Also, Scott says Instagram or FB is a better way to keep in touch with him these days.

https://www.facebook.com/scott.lobdell.18?fref=ufi&rc=p

https://www.instagram.com/scottylobdell/

----------


## G-Potion

> Also, Scott says Instagram or FB is a better way to keep in touch with him these days.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/scott.lobdell.18?fref=ufi&rc=p
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/scottylobdell/


Nice! Would love to hear from the man regularly.

----------


## thebluefeline

> So here's from the man himself


Yes! I'm really happy about this!  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> So here's from the man himself


WHEW!!! Thanks for that Dark!
Honestly that rumor was the only one that had me on edge. Super glad to hear he's here to stay.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> So here's from the man himself


I KNEW IT.
I KNEW IT!

(God thank you, I was right for once!)

----------


## JasonTodd428

That's good news. I was pretty certain that he wasn't going to be leaving because of lack of any type of official word on the matter or even any kind of leak to that effect. This does cast shade on the rest of the rumors that person posted on 4chan as well, not that I really believe any of them to be the case anyway, but its nice to know that maybe none of those rumors are in fact true at all. Sounds like just another person with minimal actual knowledge of anything. Less a rumor and more just fan speculation.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Variant cover for issue 26.
> 
> I seriously love it. It's actually making me glad that Jason going solo just to get great covers oh him alone like this one.


Seriously love this cover as well.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The only reason Scott made the announcement is because those rumors made its way to Bleeding Cool. Amusingly, even Rich deemed them to be just a bunch of BS.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The only reason Scott made the announcement is because those rumors made its way to Bleeding Cool. Amusingly, even Rich deemed them to be just a bunch of BS.


Honestly I'm glad Scott did made an announcement anyway since people take things that they see online and assume they're real without paying attention to where they heard it or fact checking to be sure whether its true or not. Then its all over the internet as fact when it might not be true at all. I'm sure this will save him a ton of worrying fans posting to his accounts in the long run since he nipped this in the bud before it got out of hand.

----------


## AJpyro

> So here's from the man himself




This. This is the good news.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> So here's from the man himself


Nice to see that though I do hope DC has more writers at any point who can take over for Lobdell in the foreseeable future.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I wonder... since the coffin was empty, I'm guessing Willis is alive and will most likely meet Jason, who will be now completely isolated from the Bat Family. I wonder if he will try to reconnect with Jason only to reveal himself to be a villain at the end. That's my prediction.


I thought it was simply how Luthor smuggled Willis out of Gotham? By staging his death.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And 25 won't be completely drawn by Dexter.

https://www.newsarama.com/40783-hest...utlaws-25.html

Lame.

----------


## G-Potion

> And 25 won't be completely drawn by Dexter.
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40783-hest...utlaws-25.html
> 
> Lame.


Was hoping Soy would draw the whole thing. But if it's something like the last issue of RH/A then the style shift might be warranted. That said, that's a bit too many artists for me.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/mmhfmmfff

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RH/A last issue was drawn by a single artist and we do know Soy can use a few wildly different styles. Usually when you have these many artists working is because there were last second changes that the original artist wouldn't be been able to tackle in time.

----------


## G-Potion

> RH/A last issue was drawn by a single artist and we do know Soy can use a few wildly different styles. Usually when you have these many artists working is because there were last second changes that the original artist wouldn't be been able to tackle in time.


You mean changes in the script? Then hopefully it's for the better. 
Although Ryan Winn did mention his involvement in something Red Hood related 3 weeks ago. If it's RHATO#25 then maybe the arrangement has been a while ago.

----------


## Zaresh

> Was hoping Soy would draw the whole thing. But if it's something like the last issue of RH/A then the style shift might be warranted. That said, that's a bit too many artists for me.


Winn is the one in the annual, right? Maybe his are the last few pages as a way of teasing the epilogue.

----------


## G-Potion

> Winn is the one in the annual, right? Maybe his are the last few pages as a way of tease the epilogue.


Nah, Winn did the inking for Trevor Hairsine #23. And now both of them are in #25 as well besides Phil Hester and Ande Parks.

----------


## G-Potion

I wonder if Annual #2 is undergoing some changes as well, since it's basically a follow-up from #25.

----------


## Celgress

> https://twitter.com/mmhfmmfff


LOL very nice.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Nah, Winn did the inking for Trevor Hairsine #23. And now both of them are in #25 as well besides Phil Hester and Ande Parks.


OH, ok. So that's why the name rang a bell.

----------


## SpentShrimp

I miss sexy Starfire.

----------


## G-Potion

6 flashback pages for Hairsine and Winn. And I read Hester's tweets, they have 5 pages.

Also I appreciate the growing love Winn has for Jason.

Also flashbacks. You know you're gonna cry.

----------


## G-Potion

Ryan Winn. Still trying to make it up to Jason Todd. I love this guy.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> 6 flashback pages for Hairsine and Winn. And I read Hester's tweets, they have 5 pages.
> 
> *Also I appreciate the growing love Winn has for Jason*.
> 
> Also flashbacks. You know you're gonna cry.


No surprises here, right? I mean, who wouldn't! And yeah, Tears are Coming, damn.

----------


## Rise

6 pages of flashback? This interesting. I wonder if it will be about Jason and Bruce in the old days.

----------


## kaimaciel

Who has two thumbs and owns an awesome commission from jjmk?

jason.jpg

This girl!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Who has two thumbs and owns an awesome commission from jjmk?
> 
> jason.jpg
> 
> This girl!


Oh, oh, oh. Not jelly at all. Nope. Noope.

Congrats for your purchase! Looks great.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Oh, oh, oh. Not jelly at all. Nope. Noope.
> 
> Congrats for your purchase! Looks great.


Thanks! I'm really proud of it! The details are amazing.

----------


## G-Potion

> Who has two thumbs and owns an awesome commission from jjmk?
> 
> jason.jpg
> 
> This girl!


Congrats on your commission and thanks for sharing with us!! I love the jacket over hoodie combo; I love his knife, oh god how I miss him using it! And white streak! And great legs! Such a nice piece of art.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> 6 pages of flashback? This interesting. I wonder if it will be about Jason and Bruce in the old days.


I'm like 90% sure that will be the case.

----------


## Aioros22

Of course there`s flashbacks or references, what BatmanxJason clash doesn`t  :Cool: 

Serves right since it`s all about Jason clashing himself with his two fathers within his morality. This issue is going to be amazing. 

Hey G, picking up some Jason sketches where I left. I`m sending you some soon to get back and forth. In the meantime PM an e-mail contact of yours I can use.

----------


## G-Potion

> Hey G, picking up some Jason sketches where I left. I`m sending you some soon to get back and forth. In the meantime PM an e-mail contact of yours I can use.


Done, mate!

----------


## Ssstammerer

Guys, SDCC is one week away. Anyone here hoping for a new Jason Todd figure? Aside from Funko Pop.

----------


## G-Potion

> Guys, SDCC is one week away. Anyone here hoping for a new Jason Todd figure? Aside from Funko Pop.


Would be nice. Really want a Rebirth figure.

----------


## G-Potion

http://vengefulcatofthenight.tumblr....t/175871194582



Bruce: There is only one thing worse than killing…



Bruce: BOOM!

----------


## G-Potion

Jason: *gasp* YOU!



Bruce: N O

----------


## oasis1313

> Congrats on your commission and thanks for sharing with us!! I love the jacket over hoodie combo; I love his knife, oh god how I miss him using it! And white streak! And great legs! Such a nice piece of art.


Gorgeous artwork!  I wish they'd give Jason back his white streak, too.  If the X-Men colorists can remember to do it for Rogue, DC should be able to manage it for Jason!

----------


## G-Potion

> Gorgeous artwork!  I wish they'd give Jason back his white streak, too.  If the X-Men colorists can remember to do it for Rogue, DC should be able to manage it for Jason!


Me too. Even DC is aware of how popular that feature is because from what a source told me when Rebirth started, the early drafts had plot points explaining the why/how of the white streak, as well as _when_ it's visible. I'm still holding out hope that they bring it back in eventually. Not to mention so many different incarnations of Jason have it (Injustice, Mother Panic).

----------


## Jovos2099

Has anyone heard about how a version of Jason is going to be in the live-action Titans show?

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Who has two thumbs and owns an awesome commission from jjmk?
> 
> Attachment 68214
> 
> This girl!


I'd like to see this costume in the comics with the helmet.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Has anyone heard about how a version of Jason is going to be in the live-action Titans show?


I think the actor playing him was walking around in civilian clothes so maybe it's something like a pre-Robin role for him? Don't think they'll do Red Hood yet.

----------


## oasis1313

> Me too. Even DC is aware of how popular that feature is because from what a source told me when Rebirth started, the early drafts had plot points explaining the why/how of the white streak, as well as _when_ it's visible. I'm still holding out hope that they bring it back in eventually. Not to mention so many different incarnations of Jason have it (Injustice, Mother Panic).


If I'd clawed my way out of my own grave, I'd have white hair, too!

----------


## Aahz

> I think the actor playing him was walking around in civilian clothes so maybe it's something like a pre-Robin role for him? Don't think they'll do Red Hood yet.


To me it looks like a teen version of Jason, my guess is that Dick will become Nightwing by the end of the first or start of the second season and Jason will become the new Robin.

I don't think it would make much sense to do Red Hood before season 4 or 5, and I hope they recast the actor at that point.

----------


## G-Potion

> To me it looks like a teen version of Jason, my guess is that Dick will become Nightwing by the end of the first or start of the second season and Jason will become the new Robin.
> 
> I don't think it would make much sense to do Red Hood before season 4 or 5, and I hope they recast the actor at that point.


Agree. I think the current actor can do the Robin look but not Red Hood.

----------


## oasis1313

> Agree. I think the current actor can do the Robin look but not Red Hood.


It would be hard to pick the right actor for Jason.  He'd need to have some character and not just be a pretty face.

----------


## thebluefeline

> It would be hard to pick the right actor for Jason.  He'd need to have some character and not just be a pretty face.


I really liked the batinthesun actor they got to play him for the Punisher vs Red Hood showdown they had. I know he's probably not for official roles but I think it was pretty good ;D 

Link here for anyone who hasn't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWkLH97mMdU

----------


## Aahz

I'm anyway a little bit skeptical that the show will run long enough for Jason to become Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm anyway a little bit skeptical that the show will run long enough for Jason to become Red Hood.


I think if the Red Hood series rumor is true, then Titans doesn't  really have to do anything aside from introducing Jason Todd. The establishment of Red Hood is better left for his solo series.

----------


## Zaresh

> I really liked the batinthesun actor they got to play him for the Punisher vs Red Hood showdown they had. I know he's probably not for official roles but I think it was pretty good ;D 
> 
> Link here for anyone who hasn't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWkLH97mMdU



Just my piece of thought here.

Most male teens have a man-up change (in their looks) between the 20s and the 25s. So it all depends on how old the actor is. He seems like he has a square-ish shape of face, he can take the Hood look if he loses the round edges almost all teens have. Also seems to have a good jaw. And the lips may also gain edges and lose fat if he still is under his 20-21.

----------


## Aahz

> Most male teens have a man-up change (in their looks) between the 20s and the 25s. So it all depends on how old the actor is. He seems like he has a square-ish shape of face, he can take the Hood look if he loses the round edges almost all teens have. Also seems to have a good jaw. And the lips may also gain edges and lose fat if he still is under his 20-21.


The actor is apparently allready 20.
The problem is for me less his face and more his height.

----------


## kaimaciel

Regarding the white streak, apparently it was removed because it made him look too old, but as we can clearly see by the huge amount of fanart, an artist can easily make Jason look young and add the streak.

----------


## RedBird

> Regarding the white streak, apparently it was removed because it made him look too old, but as we can clearly see by the huge amount of fanart, an artist can easily make Jason look young and add the streak.


Exactly. And hell, there are other characters that have the white streak thing going on in their hair and that don't look old because of it. 

I've noticed that Jason tends to be drawn kinda old looking at times and I'm gonna have a little fun and theorize here so humor me. :P I think that the problem isn't the hair color, and besides different artistic styles definitely being being one possible factor in how old a character can look, I'm gonna throw out just one generalization and say that I think its that too many of dc's artists tend to have a predisposition to draw Jason looking much older than he is, almost in an attempt to match his appearance to the _idea_ of him as a villain and 'punisher-esque bad guy'. Artists matching a characters appearance to their perceived personality (which is grating in this case) is understandable in a way, since its a basic guideline to designing characters and communicating the archetype of said character to an audience after all. Ergo why we sometimes see Jason with these ridiculously super harsh frown lines, or super chiseled cheeks that are deep set and hollowed out. Those things generally come with age thanks to skin folds and loss of fat around the face, and wouldn't be features you would place on a character barely out of his teens, but since Jason is a 'bad guy/villain' and (in his first big appearance UTRH anyway) one that by all intents and purposes through size, weight, muscle-mass and even the military style clothing is heavily coded in design to be an intimidating 'hyper masculine figure', which was deemed necessary to communicate both his skills, competency and his threat factor within the story. After all, his introduction featured him being a major enemy to Batman that could defeat him through brute force*** so the fact that he was designed to be this 'scary intimidating man', not a teen, a _MAN_ is what I think now kinda just snowballed and fuels the artistic interpretation of his design. I guess it also doesn't help that his first kinda adult appearance was by Jim 'every man has a jawline and chin like a shovel' Lee who also aimed to draw him as an intimidating force to be reckoned with in Hush. Its possible his work helped guide Mahnke and the other UTRH artists with their interpretations too I guess. Who knows. (that being said I do like Lee's design, I think it suits his style just fine.)

Of course this isn't every artist, like I said, its a generalization that I'm theorizing based on simply design principles that I know encourage incorporation of a characters moral alignment into their look, and as such I think its why this problem only remained strongest around post UTRH pre52 when Jason was truly a villain. The only comic I remember him looking anything like his age was in SOME issues of countdown, and well well, what do you know, that was a comic in which he was supposed to be (until they changed the ending) redeemed and not be the 'bad guy' anymore, huh funny that. I think having his own series, being less of a villain and more of a main character in his own right and having Rocaforts ridiculously pretty style setting his design and new aesthetic status quo in the beginning of new52 kinda paved the way and helped to give more youthful examples of the character for other artists to interpret and follow, though it also unfortunately gave as artists trying to copy Rocaforts design of the helmet, with a nose and lips. _shiver_. Seriously it only ever looked good in his style. 

***He was supposed to die by the end, so I'm sure DC felt safe at the time making him Batmans 'equal' in terms of skill set, since it helped make Jason seem like a huge threat at the time and wouldn't have been of consequence to Batmans credibility after Jason died. Boy did they back peddle outta that one fast. Funny how Jasons competency and capabilities dropped super fast after they changed their minds and let him live through the finale of UTRH.

----------


## Aahz

The thing is that already the way he is written and and the people he is teamed up with make him look older.

In Count down he was teamed up with Donna and Kyle, and in the new 52 with Roy and Kory, all characters that belong in Dicks generation. And in Rebirth he was on a teamed up with Artemis and Bizzaro who would usually be to "old" for that generation.

I think many comic readers don't even realize how big the age gap between him and Dick was pre flashpoint.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The thing is that already the way he is written and and the people he is teamed up with make him look older.
> 
> In Count down he was teamed up with Donna and Kyle, and in the new 52 with Roy and Kory, all characters that belong in Dicks generation. And in Rebirth he was on a teamed up with Artemis and Bizzaro who would usually be to "old" for that generation.
> 
> I think many comic readers don't even realize how big the age gap between him and Dick was pre flashpoint.


I never really thought of the age gap being all the large between them back then, particularly if we are talking about it at the time that Jason was Robin. I'm not even all that sure that it was ever mentioned in story back when he was Robin at all. I know I never thought about it much at all while I was reading back then and I still really don't pay that much attention to it now. In fact I actually don't see the need to be overly specific with ages at all since characters are always getting de-aged by companies anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

As far as I remember, only RHATO Annual#1 managed to make Jason and Dick look like there's a considerable age gap between them.

----------


## Zaresh

> The actor is apparently allready 20.
> The problem is for me less his face and more his height.


Well, you really don't need to be all tall and bulky in TV and films to look threatening, honestly. A lot of how we perceive characters as such comes from costume, pose, lighting and how you actually shoot the actors, from where, from how far, from which angle, etc. So it really wouldn't a problem for me with a good direction behind.

----------


## Aahz

> Well, you really don't need to be all tall and bulky in TV and films to look threatening, honestly. A lot of how we perceive characters as such comes from costume, pose, lighting and how you actually shoot the actors, from where, from how far, from which angle, etc. So it really wouldn't a problem for me with a good direction behind.


They can trick a little bit, but there are limits. If he is a had shorter than the actor who plays dick, that will be hard to hide if they will go up against each other.

----------


## Aahz

> I never really thought of the age gap being all the large between them back then, particularly if we are talking about it at the time that Jason was Robin. I'm not even all that sure that it was ever mentioned in story back when he was Robin at all. I know I never thought about it much at all while I was reading back then and I still really don't pay that much attention to it now. In fact I actually don't see the need to be overly specific with ages at all since characters are always getting de-aged by companies anyway.


Back during Jasons original time as Robin he was pre teen and Dick was 19-20. 
In the picture af terras funeral from Judas Contract you can see how much younger he was than the Titans of that era (ok thats technically pre crisis Jason).

----------


## Zaresh

> The thing is that already the way he is written and and the people he is teamed up with make him look older.
> 
> In Count down he was teamed up with Donna and Kyle, and in the new 52 with Roy and Kory, all characters that belong in Dicks generation. And in Rebirth he was on a teamed up with Artemis and Bizzaro who would usually be to "old" for that generation.
> 
> I think many comic readers don't even realize how big the age gap between him and Dick was pre flashpoint.


Jason tends to act older than he is. I think this carries with him since pre-Crisis.

Also, I think *@RedBird* is pretty spot on. It's actually a thing in Art. I think that's the reason why we have herculean, "ephebean" (is that an actual word?) etc. kinds of body and face style in more traditional art: artists, and people overall, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously, follow certain "builts" when they represent their ideas. The bad guys tends to be old, rough looking and sometimes really ugly. Or so I think, by what I've observed. There probably is a very good and well reasoned explanation for it by some anthropologist or Art historian somewhere.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Source is 4chan so yeah, take with a truckload of salt but this is allegedly, Jason's role in the Titans series

*spoilers:*
>Apparently its Jason who's the one who manages to mend fences between Dick and his former mentor...or he tries to anyway
>Jason appears to have been found by Dick first, trying his best to set him on the right path throughout the season as a subplot.
>Eventually Jason learns Dick is Robin.
>When Jason asks why Batman and Robin aren't a due anymore Dick begins to give non-answers.
>By season's end Jason may take up the Robin mantle and become recurring in a second season and head to Gotham to train under Batman
>Or, alternatively the other plan is for him to pick up the Red Robin mantle...he hasn't been killed by Joker yet so no Red Hood unfortunately.
>Jason wants to see Bruce and Dick reconcile because he's legit scared the Titans will be killed by Trigon and may need back up.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

That's.... interesting.

----------


## Zaresh

> Source is 4chan so yeah, take with a truckload of salt but this is allegedly, Jason's role in the Titans series
> 
> *spoilers:*
> >Apparently its Jason who's the one who manages to mend fences between Dick and his former mentor...or he tries to anyway
> >Jason appears to have been found by Dick first, trying his best to set him on the right path throughout the season as a subplot.
> >Eventually Jason learns Dick is Robin.
> >When Jason asks why Batman and Robin aren't a due anymore Dick begins to give non-answers.
> >By season's end Jason may take up the Robin mantle and become recurring in a second season and head to Gotham to train under Batman
> >Or, alternatively the other plan is for him to pick up the Red Robin mantle...he hasn't been killed by Joker yet so no Red Hood unfortunately.
> ...


Interesting and kind of original, honestly. I would watch it. Not a bad option if they're avoiding using Batman the most. I may be a bad fan, but I hope these leaks are true.

----------


## Aioros22

Jason and Dick`s age gap was significant post crisis but ever since he came back, around 2005, the gap between the two elder brothers have been closing ever since. 

Titans, being a tv show, seems to want to go with a teenager to adulthood Jason and an already adult Dick, so, there is a gap like in the current comics but just not significant. It`s fine by me. I`m only hoping they don`t change his background.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Source is 4chan so yeah, take with a truckload of salt but this is allegedly, Jason's role in the Titans series
> 
> *spoilers:*
> >Apparently its Jason who's the one who manages to mend fences between Dick and his former mentor...or he tries to anyway
> >Jason appears to have been found by Dick first, trying his best to set him on the right path throughout the season as a subplot.
> >Eventually Jason learns Dick is Robin.
> >When Jason asks why Batman and Robin aren't a due anymore Dick begins to give non-answers.
> >By season's end Jason may take up the Robin mantle and become recurring in a second season and head to Gotham to train under Batman
> >Or, alternatively the other plan is for him to pick up the Red Robin mantle...he hasn't been killed by Joker yet so no Red Hood unfortunately.
> ...


If this is true, Tim Drake fans are going to be sooooo mad.

----------


## Zaresh

> If this is true, Tim Drake fans are going to be sooooo mad.


Why? Because Jason gets the Red Robin name before him? It actually went that way in the comics too. Or because Dick gives Jason the mantle? That isn't all that weird either, if they go that route. I mean, Dick gave his mantle to Damian too.
I think it's more probably that they will be a bit mad because Dick seems a bit too inspired in Tim, actually. And Dick and Batman fans can get mad as well about a few other things.

----------


## Ssstammerer

> If this is true, Tim Drake fans are going to be sooooo mad.


They're already mad for having Dick use Tim's R and bo staff. Lol.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Has anyone here noticed that Jason's Robin suit in Arkhamverse is suddenly worn by Tim in Arkham Knight? They just changed the R.

What I don't understand is that Tim has a different Robin suit in Arkham Asylum and City. So why have him wear something similar to what Jason wore? Is there an in-story explanation?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Has anyone here noticed that Jason's Robin suit in Arkhamverse is suddenly worn by Tim in Arkham Knight? They just changed the R.
> 
> What I don't understand is that Tim has a different Robin suit in Arkham Asylum and City. So why have him wear something similar to what Jason wore? Is there an in-story explanation?


Probably just for the parallel. Tim's scenario in Knight was about Batman's fear of Robin's death and introducing Jason

----------


## thebluefeline

> Source is 4chan so yeah, take with a truckload of salt but this is allegedly, Jason's role in the Titans series
> 
> *spoilers:*
> >Apparently its Jason who's the one who manages to mend fences between Dick and his former mentor...or he tries to anyway
> >Jason appears to have been found by Dick first, trying his best to set him on the right path throughout the season as a subplot.
> >Eventually Jason learns Dick is Robin.
> >When Jason asks why Batman and Robin aren't a due anymore Dick begins to give non-answers.
> >By season's end Jason may take up the Robin mantle and become recurring in a second season and head to Gotham to train under Batman
> >Or, alternatively the other plan is for him to pick up the Red Robin mantle...he hasn't been killed by Joker yet so no Red Hood unfortunately.
> ...


Ehh, I don't like the sound of this. I thought Dick isn't working within Gotham in this series. Is Jason not from Gotham then? His character sounds like Tim more than Jason with how he's trying to fix things between Bruce and Dick. Giving him the Red Robin name just kinda affirms it ._.

----------


## Aioros22

Weeee-llll Dick and Jason were Red Robin before Tim was. 

And that`s for stealing the black and red suit, Timbo!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Back during Jasons original time as Robin he was pre teen and Dick was 19-20. 
> In the picture af terras funeral from Judas Contract you can see how much younger he was than the Titans of that era (ok thats technically pre crisis Jason).


I didn't start reading Batman regularly until the post Crisis era after Jason's origin was changed and it didn't really feel to me like the age difference was glaringly wide there either in the stories themselves nor in the art when Dick and Jason were on panel together. As for pre Crisis Jason I can't remember if his age was ever mentioned in story off the top of my head (it's been ages since I read those stories) but none of the wikis I searched put an age to him either. I never felt he was a pre teen there but I could be mistaken so I'll take your word for it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Ehh, I don't like the sound of this. I thought Dick isn't working within Gotham in this series. Is Jason not from Gotham then? His character sounds like Tim more than Jason with how he's trying to fix things between Bruce and Dick. Giving him the Red Robin name just kinda affirms it ._.


I hope they don't take away Jason's Gotham roots. Other than that though, his thing with Dick could still work in an organic way. Young Jason is mature for his age and if there's already a strong bond with Dick, he would want Dick to treasure the family that Jason himself never had.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Weeee-llll Dick and Jason were Red Robin before Tim was. 
> 
> And that`s for stealing the black and red suit, Timbo!


Jason's Red Robin too? When?

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason's Red Robin too? When?


Countdown.

----------


## G-Potion

And he even brought the suit back to main Earth but soon discarded it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

In the main continuity (Pre FP of course) Red Robin was Jason's identity and for a brief moment, was in fact, Jason's identity moving forward but after Morrison introduced Damian editorial had to scrap those plans and hastily have the writers pass the RR identity to Tim.

----------


## dietrich

> In the main continuity (Pre FP of course) Red Robin was Jason's identity and for a brief moment, was in fact, Jason's identity moving forward but after Morrison introduced Damian editorial had to scrap those plans and hastily have the writers pass the RR identity to Tim.


That's a lucky break Imagine if Jason had become and stayed Red Robin.

I don't mind them tweaking LA Jason's role so long as his core personality does change and he still goes on to become RedHood.

----------


## Aahz

> That's a lucky break Imagine if Jason had become and stayed Red Robin.
> 
> I don't mind them tweaking LA Jason's role so long as his core personality does change and he still goes on to become RedHood.


If that show will be similar to the Arroweverse, I wouldn't expect that the personalties of the charcters match the comic book counterparts.

----------


## Zaresh

> If that show will be similar to the Arroweverse, I wouldn't expect that the personalties of the charcters match the comic book counterparts.


Well, it's not uncommon across different adaptations. Or across different books, even.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Who's excited?

----------


## Ssstammerer



----------


## G-Potion

Nice, *@Ssstammerer*! When's the unboxing?  :Big Grin:

----------


## dietrich

So looks like Penguin makes it since he in an upcoming King arc.

----------


## oasis1313

> Weeee-llll Dick and Jason were Red Robin before Tim was. 
> 
> And that`s for stealing the black and red suit, Timbo!


At last Jason is getting back some of what Tim stole.

----------


## G-Potion

> So looks like Penguin makes it since he in an upcoming King arc.


Not that there was any doubt about it. And there are theories about how Jason might have changed his aim last second. But anyway, what is this arc about?

----------


## Zaresh

> Who's excited?


T_T
I want one! So jealous right now.

Cannot wait for the day they release one like this one to go my (surprisingly existing) Funko's local town shop (seriously, we're not even 250.000 population, and we have a Funko shop. Wonders of our world).

----------


## dietrich

> Not that there was any doubt about it. And there are theories about how Jason might have changed his aim last second. But anyway, what is this arc about?


He doesn't really specify just that Penguin, KGBeast, Joker all have an upcoming arc leading back to Bane.

It seem's like this Bane arc doesn't pick up until next year so Penguin might have time to recuperate but it really be neat if he has a scar or something as a leftover from Jason.
Here's the link to the Tom King interview

http://ew.com/books/2018/07/13/batma...s-crisis-more/

----------


## dietrich

> Who's excited?


This is pretty cool. My comic shop is already sold out. I really should have pre-ordered.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> He doesn't really specify just that Penguin, KGBeast, Joker all have an upcoming arc leading back to Bane.
> 
> It seem's like this Bane arc doesn't pick up until next year so Penguin might have time to recuperate but it really be neat if he has a scar or something as a leftover from Jason.
> Here's the link to the Tom King interview
> 
> http://ew.com/books/2018/07/13/batma...s-crisis-more/


Tom King is never going to follow up on something that happened involving Jason. I doubt he has any idea what's happening in that book.

----------


## Ssstammerer

> Nice, *@Ssstammerer*! When's the unboxing?


I'll buy another one to unbox.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Preview night and no new Jason figure. DCC press release does mention Red Hood as part of a multi statue set though.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Hiya toys finally released the prototypes for their 3.75" Injustice 2 line! The Batman and Superman figures are awesome, but we all know who we'll be getting. 

More pictures here: https://toynewsi.com/312-31445

----------


## G-Potion

> Hiya toys finally released the prototypes for their 3.75" Injustice 2 line! The Batman and Superman figures are awesome too, but we all know who we'll get.


Oh, the one where Red Hood won in a poll by a landslide. Turned out pretty nicely I must say.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Source: https://toynewsi.com/10-31435

----------


## Ssstammerer



----------


## kaimaciel

Okay... I'm getting Jason's vibe out of Dick and that's... weird.

----------


## Batman Begins 2005

> Okay... I'm getting Jason's vibe out of Dick and that's... weird.


Said similar in Dick's appreciation thread.

----------


## Tony Stark

Guys check out this awesome cover for Red Hood and the outlaws,.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/07...in-putri-more/

----------


## Zaresh

> Guys check out this awesome cover for Red Hood and the outlaws,.
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/07...in-putri-more/


Yeah, we saw it a few days ago. Actually, it's the current wallpaper in my phone. It's gorgeous. We're so lucky with the covers so far.

Also, I find it funny that they didn't include a Red Robin in the Batfamily set. I guess they really are retiring Tim of superheroics for a while.

----------


## Rise

> Three Jokers by Johns 
> It focuses on Bruce, Barbara, and *Jason*
> Will consist of three 40 page prestige format issues. "It's not about other dimensions, or other Earths. It's a very grounded, emotional story
> Three Jokers will be a DC Black Label book, but will tie-in to DC Universe continuity. "We're hoping it'll be out this winter," said Johns.


First, we got the trailer of Titans with Dick being Jason 0.02 (which is nothing new)
Second, TCW was announced to be back (YES!!)
Third, Hal book is announced! 
Fourth, Shazam book is announced (yes!)
And now this.

Man, what a day.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Yeah, we saw it a few days ago. Actually, it's the current wallpaper in my phone. It's gorgeous. We're so lucky with the covers so far.
> 
> Also, I find it funny that they didn't include a Red Robin in the Batfamily set. I guess they really are retiring Tim of superheroics for a while.


OK. My bad lol. I'm glad you guys seen it. I think it's the definition of badass.

----------


## Arsenal

> First, we got the trailer of Titans with Dick being Jason 0.02 (which is nothing new)
> Second, TCW was announced to be back (YES!!)
> Third, Hal book is announced! 
> Fourth, Shazam book is announced (yes!)
> And now this.
> 
> Man, what a day.


TCW? What's that?

----------


## Aioros22

meme roll has begun 

"Jason Todd and Dick Grayson facing each other after the whole Fuck Batman thing"

----------


## Aioros22



----------


## G-Potion

> Three Jokers by Johns 
> It focuses on Bruce, Barbara, and Jason
> Will consist of three 40 page prestige format issues. "It's not about other dimensions, or other Earths. It's a very grounded, emotional story
> Three Jokers will be a DC Black Label book, but will tie-in to DC Universe continuity. "We're hoping it'll be out this winter," said Johns.
> 
> Man, what a day.


Really surprised that's how they're gonna do the Three Jokers. Even more that they actually let Jason be involved. Man, Jason's Black Label debut. Gonna be intense.

----------


## Drako

Troy Baker is literally everyone. Could be a lot of people.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Actors:Troy_Baker

----------


## Frontier

> 


I think it's more likely Troy's playing Geo-Force.

----------


## G-Potion

> meme roll has begun 
> 
> "Jason Todd and Dick Grayson facing each other after the whole “Fuck Batman” thing"


Wait until we see a precious cinnamon baby Jason and people will say the same thing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## thebluefeline

I was gonna buy the Three Jokers title even before Barbara and Jason were announced but this is now the icing on the cake  :Big Grin:  They mentioned that this story is in continuity though so i'm wondering how they're going to tie it into the next arc for the outlaws. The batfamily can't even deal with one Joker, let alone three x-x

Titans!Dick sounds really bad from the trailer. Really hope he develops into his own character during the show but i'm less optimistic about that now. If Dick is this edgy who knows how far they'll take Jason ._.

----------


## Zaresh

> 


Please, please, please be Jason. Oh, god, please be Jason.

I freaking love Baker's voice. I mean, I still liked Ackles better as Jason, but I am all for Baker since his character in Tales of Vesperia. And he was sooooo good in Bioshock Infinite. A pitty he didn't have eveen more lines in AK.

----------


## Aioros22

> Troy Baker is literally everyone. Could be a lot of people.
> 
> http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Actors:Troy_Baker


True but doesn't hurt to keep an eye out. If the revival is sucessfull it will only be a matter of time until It happens.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I can't really be excited about the whole three Jokers thing because the idea itself is dumb and Joker tormenting Jason and Barbara over what he did to them is played out already.

----------


## shadowsgirl

Math Problem  :Big Grin:

----------


## dietrich

I see my post is already here so nevermind

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So about the Titans trailer




> Finally got my WB Rep to respond, about the #Titans Trailer. Like the Arkham Games, Robin is Shooting above thier heads, to scare them. The Thug He stabbed was in the Collorbone. Also He Steps on someones Jaw. *Jason will Battle Dick & He's a Killer.* Donna Troy will join cast S1.


https://twitter.com/KwingReviews/sta...86464682627073

----------


## kaimaciel

Here's what I hope won't happen: we've seen a more violent and angry Dick, I hope they don't make Jason ten times worse to act as his foil and make Dick look better by comparison.

----------


## G-Potion

Not sure I like the sound of Jason's conflict with Bruce possibly being transferred to Dick.

----------


## Arsenal

> So about the Titans trailer
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/KwingReviews/sta...86464682627073


So Jason's going to already be a killer when he's introduced. Wonder how they're gonna make that work.

----------


## Aahz

> Not sure I like the sound of Jason's conflict with Bruce possibly being transferred to Dick.


Post crisis Dick and Bruce had their own conflicts.

----------


## G-Potion

> Post crisis Dick and Bruce had their own conflicts.


Sorry I wasn't clear enough. Meant to say Jason/Dick conflict possibly happened before Jason/Bruce.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So I take no mention was made of RHATO in today's panels either.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Finally, after years of waiting..

----------


## G-Potion

> Finally, after years of waiting..


Ohh I like this!!

----------


## oasis1313

> Not sure I like the sound of Jason's conflict with Bruce possibly being transferred to Dick.


Or maybe Dick's going to be the killer.  Sure looked like it in the trailer.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Finally, after years of waiting..


That looks nice.

----------


## dietrich

> Finally, after years of waiting..


Nice but is he wearing shoes rather than boots? Or is that so that his feet are movable?

----------


## Starter Set

> Nice but is he wearing shoes rather than boots? Or is that so that his feet are movable?


Necessary i'm afraid for poses and stuff.

----------


## dietrich

> Necessary i'm afraid for poses and stuff.


I suspected. it's just that the threw me for a 2nd. I had to be sure. i don't mind since movable parts are a big plus

----------


## RedBird

> Finally, after years of waiting..


Oh wow, the rebirth suit, sweet, and it even has a helmet-less version? Double sweet

----------


## Rac7d*

> Wait until we see a precious cinnamon baby Jason and people will say the same thing.


jason would be 14/15  right now

----------


## G-Potion

> jason would be 14/15  right now


Was referring to his personality though. If rumor is true, that Jason is trying to mend Dick and Bruce's relationship, then maybe it's a good thing because it brings back some aspects of Jason that have mostly been overlooked because writers would rather go with the 'angry robin' shtick when it comes to him.

----------


## CPSparkles

Hide and Seek with Jason, Jon and Damian

----------


## G-Potion

Does it have to be this way

----------


## Sergard

> Does it have to be this way


I love Soy's artwork and I am so hyped for the next issue. As I mentioned in the thread for issue 24 it feels like Jason is just trying to run away/leave Gotham/avoid confrontation with Bruce (we already can see how the last one worked out).
The artwork shows Jason's shots missing (on purpose). Bruce probably knows that they are only distraction and ignores them completely. So the guns are basically useless at this point. Jason is so f*cked. I love it.

----------


## G-Potion

I just want him to at least drop a gun, get his knife out to cut the freaking line. Oh wait, his boots have hidden knives also. Anyhow, just cut the darn thing Jason.

----------


## Sergard

The next issue also contains flashbacks, right?
Maybe there will be some flashbacks to the chasing scene from UtRH. That would be nice.
It's probably unavoidable that Bruce has the upper hand here. There is no way that he didn't prepare for the possibility that Jason goes astray and breaks his promise.
Jason's moves from UtRH don't work on Bruce anymore. Jason's taser probably neither. I wouldn't even be surprised if Bruce somehow used the taser against Jason.

----------


## Tony Stark

> Does it have to be this way


That is EPIC!

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Does it have to be this way


That is a great bit of artwork there. Can't wait to see that actual issue. I'm looking forward to it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #27 

Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.

Everything changed for the Red Hood last issue. This time around, everything changes for Jason Todd! Devoid of partners and exiled from Gotham City, Jason gets a fateful message from the last person he expected to see again. The news he learns leaves him with no choice but to don the Red Hood mask once more and double down on his two-fisted crimefighting approach. Pray for whoever gets in Jason's way as "The Outlaw" kicks into high gear.

32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 10. 
redhood27.jpg

----------


## thebluefeline

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #27 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Everything changed for the Red Hood last issue. This time around, everything changes for Jason Todd! Devoid of partners and exiled from Gotham City, Jason gets a fateful message from the last person he expected to see again. The news he learns leaves him with no choice but to don the Red Hood mask once more and double down on his two-fisted crimefighting approach. Pray for whoever gets in Jason's way as "The Outlaw" kicks into high gear.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 10. 
> redhood27.jpg


So he tried to ditch the Red Hood persona? Wonder if this one will be a reoccurring temporary one then, it looks really nice from the cover. I really like the tone of the direction they're going for. And I bet the message comes from Willis Todd. Really would love to see a confrontation between the two.

----------


## JasonTodd428

The story and direction sound okay but I am already tired of the bloody crowbar imagery being used as the symbol for this direction. Given that Jason was beat almost to death with one this just rubs me the wrong way. Sorry.

----------


## thebluefeline

Yeah I can see why you're not liking it. I wasn't a fan of it myself but I'm willing to give Scott Lobdell and the new direction a chance to prove my first impressions wrong. From an artistic standpoint though, I'm really enjoying the covers.

----------


## Zaresh

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #27 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Everything changed for the Red Hood last issue. This time around, everything changes for Jason Todd! Devoid of partners and exiled from Gotham City, Jason gets a fateful message from the last person he expected to see again. The news he learns leaves him with no choice but to don the Red Hood mask once more and double down on his two-fisted crimefighting approach. Pray for whoever gets in Jason's way as "The Outlaw" kicks into high gear.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 10. 
> redhood27.jpg


WHAT. IS. HAPPENING.
This can become a memorable story arc, or one that we will hate deeply. It all depends on how Lobdell deluvers it all. I'm nervous, and impatient.

----------


## Zaresh

> The story and direction sound okay but I am already tired of the bloody crowbar imagery being used as the symbol for this direction. Given that Jason was beat almost to death with one this just rubs me the wrong way. Sorry.


They mention his fists, so if may be not as promient as it seems.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh boy, that Green Arrow solicit.

----------


## magpieM

> Attachment 68615


He looks like Scorpion in Injustice 1 DLC

----------


## G-Potion

Not sure how prominent the crowbar will be in story (hopefully not) but damn does it makes these covers bloody intense. New direction still sounds pretty exciting to me. Can't wait!

----------


## G-Potion

So by donning the Red Hood persona, does it mean he now wears the helmet again (not that he needs to, given the hoodie)? I remember Rise said there's no helmet underneath, in #26.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They mention his fists, so if may be not as promient as it seems.


I was speaking specifically of its prominence on the covers not in the stories themselves since we've not even seen them yet. I just personally don't really care for it is all. I'm still going to give the arc a chance because if anyone can actually make me like ultra violent Hood it would be Lobdell. I just hated it so much in pre-FP days is all so all this really makes me weary. The crowbar imagery doesn't help with that at all.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not sure how prominent the crowbar will be in story (hopefully not) but damn does it makes these covers bloody intense. New direction still sounds pretty exciting to me. Can't wait!


Like I said the story itself sounds like it will be exciting and Lobdell is probably the only one who can make this kind of Jason Todd story work for me. I just don't particularly care for the imagery being used in the covers is all (or the fact that it's THE crowbar to be honest.) I didn't care for it in the story were it was on auction either to tell you the truth.

----------


## AJpyro

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #27 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Everything changed for the Red Hood last issue. This time around, everything changes for Jason Todd! Devoid of partners and exiled from Gotham City, Jason gets a fateful message from the last person he expected to see again. The news he learns leaves him with no choice but to don the Red Hood mask once more and double down on his two-fisted crimefighting approach. Pray for whoever gets in Jason's way as "The Outlaw" kicks into high gear.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 10. 
> Attachment 68615


This is gonna be viseral. Also 30+ pgs? Usually its 22.

----------


## Zaresh

> I was speaking specifically of its prominence on the covers not in the stories themselves since we've not even seen them yet. I just personally don't really care for it is all. I'm still going to give the arc a chance because if anyone can actually make me like ultra violent Hood it would be Lobdell. I just hated it so much in pre-FP days is all so all this really makes me weary. The crowbar imagery doesn't help with that at all.


I can understand. Yeah, covers give an untraviolent vibe that often didn't work well in the past. But I as well am waiting for what Lobdell can do with it.

----------


## Aahz

Hm the Injustice 2 comics are also ending and sofar it doesn't look like we are getting more of Jason  :Mad:

----------


## G-Potion

> Hm the Injustice 2 comics are also ending and sofar it doesn't look like we are getting more of Jason


Yeah. Disappointed.

----------


## Arsenal

> So by donning the Red Hood persona, does it mean he now wears the helmet again (not that he needs to, given the hoodie)? I remember Rise said there's no helmet underneath, in #26.


Just because he's currently not wearing the Helmet doesn't mean that he doesn't have his old one stashed away somewhere

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh boy, that Green Arrow solicit.


This is worrying.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I can understand. Yeah, covers give an untraviolent vibe that often didn't work well in the past. But I as well am waiting for what Lobdell can do with it.


Honestly, those covers are actually a huge turn off for me so having Lobdell still on the book helps me to at least get passed that feeling so I can read the issues. I trust him enough as a writer to not feel that he will undermine his own work with the character and that something good will come out of all this for Jason. If he wasn't still on the book though I wouldn't bother reading it after the annual. I love the character but I really wouldn't want to read about him if a new writer came along and suddenly regressed his character to make him act like a crazy lunatic as he was so often depicted in the pre-N52 days again. That's not something I want to see happen again.

----------


## Sergard

> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #27 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Everything changed for the Red Hood last issue. This time around, everything changes for Jason Todd! Devoid of partners and exiled from Gotham City, Jason gets a fateful message from the last person he expected to see again. The news he learns leaves him with no choice but to don the Red Hood mask once more and double down on his two-fisted crimefighting approach. Pray for whoever gets in Jason's way as "The Outlaw" kicks into high gear.
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 10.


I am glad that the summary is pretty non-telling, so that we obtain no clue/spoiler what could have happened in the issues before, or at least nothing concrete. One can only speculate. For example does "exiled" mean that Batman explicitly threatened Jason to never set a foot into Gotham again or does Jason just want to avoid confrontation with Batman?

I already call nonsense on "the last person he expected to see again". At this point in the story that would be Batman - or the Penguin. And I think neither of them is in the mood to send Jason a message that encourages him to continue crimefighting.

It's great that Yasmine Putri is doing the variant cover again. I already love the variant covers of issue #25 and #26.

----------


## Zaresh

> I am glad that the summary is pretty non-telling, so that we obtain no clue/spoiler what could have happened in the issues before, or at least nothing concrete. One can only speculate. For example does "exiled" mean that Batman explicitly threatened Jason to never set a foot into Gotham again or does Jason just want to avoid confrontation with Batman?
> 
> I already call nonsense on "the last person he expected to see again". At this point in the story that would be Batman - or the Penguin. And I think neither of them is in the mood to send Jason a message that encourages him to continue crimefighting.
> 
> It's great that Yasmine Putri is doing the variant cover again. I already love the variant covers of issue #25 and #26.


Could be Willis (dead), Roy (unlikely, he already gives Jason support in the annual), Tim (on vacation/limbo), Damian (at odds with Bruce by that time, I think), Woner Woman (why not, just because), Bruce (if he doesn't disown him and Jason just flies out Gotham by his own will), Faye or Ma (no body expects the Spanish Inquisition option).

Lots of possibilities  :Big Grin:

----------


## Sergard

> Could be Willis (dead), Roy (unlikely, he already gives Jason support in the annual), Tim (on vacation/limbo), Damian (at odds with Bruce by that time, I think), Woner Woman (why not, just because), Bruce (if he doesn't disown him and Jason just flies out Gotham by his own will), Faye or Ma (no body expects the Spanish Inquisition option).
> 
> Lots of possibilities


Let's keep guessing, that's fun. Maybe one of us is right in the end. Although Roy isn't completely out of the picture if the annual appearance is before Heroes in Crisis and the message ties in with HiC. On the other hand the issue would probably be advertised as tie-in in that case. Has there even been any tie-in in the RHatO Rebirth run?

Okay, my candidates for the message are:
- Essence/Ducra/S'aru (Jason is at the moment in a pretty bad state of mind, they could want to help him control his emotions)
- Talia or other members of the League of Assassins Jason has worked with before like Bronze Tiger (since Jason is probably back to killing again they could want to get him back on their side)
- Lex Luthor (there is still the contract with Luthor of which we don't know all rights and obligations. Maybe Jason has to do something for Lex)
- Red Devil aka Eddie Bloomberg aka Kid Devil (Jason and he were penpals in some continuity and Eddie is on the cover of Raven: Daughter of Darkness #7. I think he hasn't been introduced in New52/Rebirth so far, or?)
- Joker's Daughter or Joker (because why not make Jason's bad situation worse?)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I feel I've seen this panel before but is not from the Deathstroke issue, Pantalena drew. Is he solicited for GA? Because he isn't on the annual either.
https://twitter.com/PantStudio/statu...60248459026432

----------


## Zaresh

> Let's keep guessing, that's fun. Maybe one of us is right in the end. Although Roy isn't completely out of the picture if the annual appearance is before Heroes in Crisis and the message ties in with HiC. On the other hand the issue would probably be advertised as tie-in in that case. Has there even been any tie-in in the RHatO Rebirth run?
> 
> Okay, my candidates for the message are:
> - Essence/Ducra/S'aru (Jason is at the moment in a pretty bad state of mind, they could want to help him control his emotions)
> - Talia or other members of the League of Assassins Jason has worked with before like Bronze Tiger (since Jason is probably back to killing again they could want to get him back on their side)
> - Lex Luthor (there is still the contract with Luthor of which we don't know all rights and obligations. Maybe Jason has to do something for Lex)
> *- Red Devil aka Eddie Bloomberg aka Kid Devil (Jason and he were penpals in some continuity and Eddie is on the cover of Raven: Daughter of Darkness #7. I think he hasn't been introduced in New52/Rebirth so far, or?)*
> - Joker's Daughter or Joker (because why not make Jason's bad situation worse?)


Interesting choice and original. I like it.




> I feel I've seen this panel before but is not from the Deathstroke issue, Pantalena drew. Is he solicited for GA? Because he isn't on the annual either.
> https://twitter.com/PantStudio/statu...60248459026432


No idea. Doesn't ring a bell to me.

----------


## Sergard

> I feel I've seen this panel before but is not from the Deathstroke issue, Pantalena drew. Is he solicited for GA? Because he isn't on the annual either.
> https://twitter.com/PantStudio/statu...60248459026432


Maybe you mix it up with Pantalena's Red Hood art from his instagram?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BkMwg3KHuvv/
Although that doesn't help finding the series/issue the art belongs to, sorry.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Maybe you mix it up with Pantalena's Red Hood art from his instagram?
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BkMwg3KHuvv/
> Although that doesn't help finding the series/issue the art belongs to, sorry.


No, that one is from Deathstroke #16, the aforementioned issue Pantalena pencilled.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> No, that one is from Deathstroke #16, the aforementioned issue Pantalena pencilled.


Maybe you feel you saw it before because of the art in that issue? The costumes are the same. I don't remember seeing that image before myself so I've no idea where its from.

----------


## G-Potion

> I feel I've seen this panel before but is not from the Deathstroke issue, Pantalena drew. Is he solicited for GA? Because he isn't on the annual either.
> https://twitter.com/PantStudio/statu...60248459026432


No idea. But this looks very good regardless. Jason is in his N52 costume it seems.

----------


## G-Potion

> Let's keep guessing, that's fun. Maybe one of us is right in the end. Although Roy isn't completely out of the picture if the annual appearance is before Heroes in Crisis and the message ties in with HiC. On the other hand the issue would probably be advertised as tie-in in that case. Has there even been any tie-in in the RHatO Rebirth run?
> 
> Okay, my candidates for the message are:
> - Essence/Ducra/S'aru (Jason is at the moment in a pretty bad state of mind, they could want to help him control his emotions)
> - Talia or other members of the League of Assassins Jason has worked with before like Bronze Tiger (since Jason is probably back to killing again they could want to get him back on their side)
> - Lex Luthor (there is still the contract with Luthor of which we don't know all rights and obligations. Maybe Jason has to do something for Lex)
> - Red Devil aka Eddie Bloomberg aka Kid Devil (Jason and he were penpals in some continuity and Eddie is on the cover of Raven: Daughter of Darkness #7. I think he hasn't been introduced in New52/Rebirth so far, or?)
> - Joker's Daughter or Joker (because why not make Jason's bad situation worse?)


Any of these happening would be an interesting choice. I want the All-Caste and Talia the most ouf of these. On the other hand, they are both very unlikely to be the reason Jason has to take up the hood once again, All-Caste especially.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.comixology.com/Red-Hood-...N1bHRzU2xpZGVy

The cover for 25 got some text bubbles added. Personally, I think they're too into the nose.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Double post.

----------


## G-Potion

So I saw some panels from Mother Panic, and some complaints that he hurt kids etc etc... Is Jason still irredeemably crazy there?

----------


## Ssstammerer

Official promo picture of Red Hood from the Injustice 2 wave 1 by Hiya Toys.

More pics here: https://toynewsi.com/312-31519

----------


## Sergard

> No, that one is from Deathstroke #16, the aforementioned issue Pantalena pencilled.


Sorry, I didn't realize you meant that issue. I thought you referred to a more recent Deathstroke issue (I don't follow the series and therefore don't know the artists). But I have read issue #16 a while ago and didn't realize that it's the same artist who drew Red Hood/Arsenal #2. Although I can remember that I liked the way Jason was drawn. He looked "bad boy" handsome - and a little evil with his pointy eyebrows. It's good that the twitter post mentioned that the second character on the picture is Black Canary. First I thought it's Starfire. Afterwards the fishnet stockings caught my eyes, then it was obvious. I hope the panel isn't from some deleted "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey" or "Justice League of America" scene. It could be part of a future RHatO issue but in that case I am surprised that Jason wears the bat-logo. I thought the new logo would stay for a while.




> Any of these happening would be an interesting choice. I want the All-Caste and Talia the most ouf of these. On the other hand, they are both very unlikely to be the reason Jason has to take up the hood once again, All-Caste especially.


I'd like to see some scenes with Talia too, I especially want to know what kind of relationship they have. Is it more mother-son like or did Talia stop caring about Jason after he came back to Gotham. (And no, I don't want to think about the sex scene from Red Hood: Lost Days. That still feels awkward to me.)




> So I saw some panels from Mother Panic, and some complaints that he hurt kids etc etc... Is Jason still irredeemably crazy there?


At least he looks crazy to me. What a shame. I liked the way he was drawn. But naming himself "Lord Robin" should have been hint enough that Jason isn't quite right up top.

There are some news about Black Mask in Teen Titans #20:
*spoilers:*
It seems that Robin shot Black Mask in the head in the Teen Titans Special but without further damage/injury. Only a bullet hole in the mask. And Black Mask is really wearing a black mask that he can take off and he looks completely normal underneath. Sorry if this sounds stupid but somehow I was under the impression that Black Mask has really a black skull because sometime in the past he had an accident that "melted" his mask on his face. (Why else would he have worn this strange BDSM-mask in RHatO?) Robin keeps Black Mask together with some other villains chained in his private prison no one else knows about. I didn't recognize the other villains. Could be new characters or some already existing ones I don't know about.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Aahz

> There are some news about Black Mask in Teen Titans #20:
> *spoilers:*
> It seems that Robin shot Black Mask in the head in the Teen Titans Special but without further damage/injury. Only a bullet hole in the mask. And Black Mask is really wearing a black mask that he can take off and he looks completely normal underneath. Sorry if this sounds stupid but somehow I was under the impression that Black Mask has really a black skull because sometime in the past he had an accident that "melted" his mask on his face. (Why else would he have worn this strange BDSM-mask in RHatO?) Robin keeps Black Mask together with some other villains chained in his private prison no one else knows about. I didn't recognize the other villains. Could be new characters or some already existing ones I don't know about.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
Black Mask should indeed have a skull like face under his mask, you can actually see him without mask in RHatO, where takes it of during the final fight.
The other villains in Teen Titans are Brother Blood, Atomic Skull, Onomatopoeia and one guy I can't identify.
*end of spoilers*




> At least he looks crazy to me. What a shame. I liked the way he was drawn. But naming himself "Lord Robin" should have been hint enough that Jason isn't quite right up top.


Thats pretty much the terrible "post Countdown" Version of Jason. He uses kids as conon fodder, is a whiny coward and wants to be Batman.
And this "Red Cowl"-Batsuit he is wearing in the end is imo also kind of dumb.
He is apparently only there to prop up the main character.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Told you it would end like this.

----------


## Aioros22

Mother Panic is an AU. It`s that simple. The writer is not oblieged to write Jason the same way. In fact, it wouldn`t work if that was the case. 

As far as him being a "whiny coward", that`s your reading (where is he being whiny exactly?) but is clear to be taking a more Ras Al Ghul approach or an over the top Arkham Knight in the messiah role. His army is tactically despendable and what is left is to take on the main character to reclaim the city.

----------


## Aahz

> Mother Panic is an AU. It`s that simple. The writer is not oblieged to write Jason the same way. In fact, it wouldn`t work if that was the case.


No they aren't, but I don't get why they keep bringing this shitty version of the character back.

And at the same time they have of course several real villains (Harley, Ivy, Catwoman, Ratcatcher) on the good side ...

----------


## G-Potion

> There are some news about Black Mask in Teen Titans #20:
> *spoilers:*
> It seems that Robin shot Black Mask in the head in the Teen Titans Special but without further damage/injury. Only a bullet hole in the mask. And Black Mask is really wearing a black mask that he can take off and he looks completely normal underneath. Sorry if this sounds stupid but somehow I was under the impression that Black Mask has really a black skull because sometime in the past he had an accident that "melted" his mask on his face. (Why else would he have worn this strange BDSM-mask in RHatO?) Robin keeps Black Mask together with some other villains chained in his private prison no one else knows about. I didn't recognize the other villains. Could be new characters or some already existing ones I don't know about.
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah I saw the panel. I'll just assume it's not the real Black Mask. The TT editor is also the editor for the first 13 issues of RHATO so it's strange that they would overlooke/ignore this detail.

----------


## Aioros22

> No they aren't, but I don't get why they keep bringing this shitty version of the character back.
> 
> And at the same time they have of course several real villains (Harley, Ivy, Catwoman, Ratcatcher) on the good side ...


Because the writer feels it serves the story and none of the listed villains works the role. 

This Jason died, came back, is the last bat standing in the world and sees himself as Gotham's messiah with the wish to purify it throught pain.

----------


## Armor of God

> Yeah I saw the panel. I'll just assume it's not the real Black Mask. The TT editor is also the editor for the first 13 issues of RHATO so it's strange that they would overlooke/ignore this detail.


There just hasn't been any consistency in Black Mask's status quo since the New 52 so what you're seeing isn't really shocking. First he was a mind reader under Daniel, then he was antagonist of Valentine's Catwoman but then Tieri ignored what Valentine had done with him in her run and Snyder did the same in his Batman and later All Star Batman. Lobdell ignored them in his Red Hood only for Glass in turn to ignore Lobdell.

----------


## Aahz

I have seen that back in the day they actually gave short flashbacks to the last appearance of a villain and and what he did since then, when they used him, some times I think they should start to do that again ...

----------


## G-Potion

> There just hasn't been any consistency in Black Mask's status quo since the New 52 so what you're seeing isn't really shocking. First he was a mind reader under Daniel, then he was antagonist of Valentine's Catwoman but then Tieri ignored what Valentine had done with him in her run and Snyder did the same in his Batman and later All Star Batman. Lobdell ignored them in his Red Hood only for Glass in turn to ignore Lobdell.


To be fair, Lobdell was forced by editorial to use Black Mask. And I wasn't questioning the writers, rather the editors who are supposed to step in to help bridge these continuities.

----------


## G-Potion

> Because the writer feels it serves the story and none of the listed villains works the role. 
> 
> This Jason died, came back, is the last bat standing in the world and sees himself as Gotham's messiah with the wish to purify it throught pain.


Guess I'll decide whether to pick this up or not depending on how redeemable he is. Not too interested in a too far gone Jason.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because the writer feels it serves the story and none of the listed villains works the role. 
> 
> This Jason died, came back, is the last bat standing in the world and sees himself as Gotham's messiah with the wish to purify it throught pain.


Except that is supposed to be a the future of a N52/Rebirth DCU, so is a Jason that went through all the events on his series, making him going this off the deep end is a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. And considering this is the final arc of Mother Panic, is obvious there won't be any effort to make this verison Jason nuanced.




> To be fair, Lobdell was forced by editorial to use Black Mask. And I wasn't questioning the writers, rather the editors who are supposed to step in to help bridge these continuities.


No, Black Mask was always part of Lobdell's pitch.

----------


## Aioros22

> Except that is supposed to be a the* future of a N52/Rebirth DCU,* so is a Jason that went through all the events on his series, making him going this off the deep end is a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. And considering this is the final arc of Mother Panic, is obvious there won't be any effort to make this verison Jason nuanced.


It`s explicity clear within the story boundaries that this is an _alternative_ future setting of the current continuity. Anyone can find it lazy but it`s what it is. It excuses itself.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It`s explicity clear within the story boundaries that this is an _alternative_ future setting of the current continuity. Anyone can find it lazy but it`s what it is. It excuses itself.


That still doesn't excuse the poor grasp the writer has on the character, a grasp so poor that Jason could be replaced by a random OC and there wouldn't be any significant change to the plot.

----------


## G-Potion

> No, Black Mask was always part of Lobdell's pitch.


Didn't he say this in his latest interview?




> But I had a much bigger storyline to start the series with, and it was tossed, and I was asked to write Black Mask as the main villain for the first arc. I admit that I agonized over that for the first few months of the series. Unlike even a Lex Luthor or Joker (who at least have battle suits and toxic Joker gas), Black Mask has no powers at all. He’s not even someone as inherently evil as the Penguin. He is just a guy who has henchmen with Tommy guns.
> 
> I was so angry for months that I had the chance to write Red Hood, Artemis and Bizarro—Trinity level super heroes—and the big villain they were up against was the Black Mask?!

----------


## RedBird

> Thats pretty much the terrible "post Countdown" Version of Jason. He uses kids as conon fodder, is a whiny coward and wants to be Batman.
> And this "Red Cowl"-Batsuit he is wearing in the end is imo also kind of dumb.
> He is apparently only there to prop up the main character.


Yeah, I think I'm gonna skip out on MP. Crazy, villainous Jason I can understand it's an alternative future or whatever, I'm used to Jason being 'the villain' I can at least enjoy the notion in various interpretations like AK. The whole wanting to be Batman should have been a red flag of course but I could of stuck around with that too, cause I honestly was enjoying the book. But this PARTICULAR misinterpretation, ie; the using children as canon fodder crap that was introduced by (I think) the PC Robin title, is a major pet peeve for me and only serves to remind audiences of the hellish post countdown Jason. You know the one that was pretty insidious, intentionally or not in trying to elevate Tim (or any other character for that matter) by completely twisting Jasons character. 

Sorry to say goodbye to MP, (though it's getting cancelled anyways so no loss), I was actually enjoying everything else about the title, but Jason hurting kids is a big freaking misstep for me. Unless the title says otherwise, or corrects itself, which is unlikely, I'm out.

----------


## Aahz

> Sorry to say goodbye to MP, (though it's getting cancelled anyways so no loss), I was actually enjoying everything else about the title, but Jason hurting kids is a big freaking misstep for me. Unless the title says otherwise, or corrects itself, which is unlikely, I'm out.


There is anyway only one issue left.

----------


## RedBird

> There is anyway only one issue left.


I know, that's why I mentioned its getting cancelled so no loss. I didn't bother with this issue (already saw scans of 'those scenes' on tumblr) and I'm not bothering with the finale. And also any 'corrections' it makes is again, unlikely. A shame really, I'd like to see more stuff of old grizzled Jason, though, you know, in a universe where he's not portrayed as being despicable.

----------


## Sergard

I sense some tendency to make ex-robins evil in alternative futures, e.g. Dick Grayson from the Booster Gold arc in Batman, Tim "Savior" Drake and Damian in general. So Mother Panic Jason is in good company.
Mother Panic wasn't on my radar until the Jason Todd appearance - and even then I hadn't big hopes for him. At the moment I'm rather looking forward to Trinity Vol 3 coming out on Tuesday.

----------


## Aahz

> I sense some tendency to make ex-robins evil in alternative futures, e.g. Dick Grayson from the Booster Gold arc in Batman, Tim "Savior" Drake and Damian in general. So Mother Panic Jason is in good company.


Sure but if you make him evil you can at least make him intimidating, scary and competent.




> Mother Panic wasn't on my radar until the Jason Todd appearance


I had also no interest in it before Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> I sense some tendency to make ex-robins evil in alternative futures, e.g. Dick Grayson from the Booster Gold arc in Batman, Tim "Savior" Drake and Damian in general. So Mother Panic Jason is in good company.
> Mother Panic wasn't on my radar until the Jason Todd appearance - and even then I hadn't big hopes for him. At the moment I'm rather looking forward to Trinity Vol 3 coming out on Tuesday.


It happens to every Robin, active or not. Same as Bruce being somewhat evil in certain alternate universes and timelines. So far, only the girls are safe, and I'm not sure about that at all: maybe I just didn't come across an evil version of any of them.

----------


## Zaresh

D-D-Double post!

----------


## Aioros22

> That still doesn't excuse the poor grasp the writer has on the character, a grasp so poor that Jason could be replaced by a random OC and there wouldn't be any significant change to the plot.


That`s another argument. 

Mine is pretty spot on: it`s basically an Elseworlds happening on another reality. Basically card blanche for any writer at how straighforward they can go.

----------


## gwhh

What comic issue is this from?  How Jason Todd get so strong?

https://lowbrowcomics.com/2015/05/03...eets-red-hood/

http://dangermart.blogspot.com/2014/...35-review.html

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Supergirl #35 from the N52 series. Jason was using Venom.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That`s another argument. 
> 
> Mine is pretty spot on: it`s basically an Elseworlds happening on another reality. Basically card blanche for any writer at how straighforward they can go.


Yeah, I give Elseworlds stories a lot more leeway in their treatment of various characters than I do stories that are supposed to be set in the current continuity. The latter should keep a character's characterization consistent across books while the former, by their very nature, aren't, in my opinion, bound by that stricture. MP, for all that they say its supposed to be the future of the current DCU, is for all intents and purposes an Elseworld story. There really is no such thing as a definitive DCU future despite how DC may market something. The fabric of the DCU is just to ever-changing due to editorial changes and such for that to even be possible.

----------


## Sergard

I reread the ending of Batman Under the Red Hood and somehow was surprised that Jason was crying when giving Batman the "ultimatum" to either kill the Joker or Jason. Totally forgot about that detail and only remembered that the whole final confrontation between Bruce and Jason was so f*cking emotional. (And the Joker had the time of his life) I wonder what Jason was thinking at that moment.

The next RHatO issue has some flashbacks if I remember correctly, right?

Batman UtRH Jason crying.jpg

----------


## Zaresh

> I reread the ending of Batman Under the Red Hood and somehow was surprised that Jason was crying when giving Batman the "ultimatum" to either kill the Joker or Jason. Totally forgot about that detail and only remembered that the whole final confrontation between Bruce and Jason was so f*cking emotional. (And the Joker had the time of his life) I wonder what Jason was thinking at that moment.
> 
> *The next RHatO issue has some flashbacks if I remember correctly, right?*
> 
> Batman UtRH Jason crying.jpg


Yep. We were told the new artists came to the book in order to work on those pages, if I recall correctly.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I reread the ending of Batman Under the Red Hood and somehow was surprised that Jason was crying when giving Batman the "ultimatum" to either kill the Joker or Jason. Totally forgot about that detail and only remembered that the whole final confrontation between Bruce and Jason was so f*cking emotional. (And the Joker had the time of his life) I wonder what Jason was thinking at that moment.
> 
> The next RHatO issue has some flashbacks if I remember correctly, right?
> 
> Batman UtRH Jason crying.jpg


You know I've often wondered what Jason was thinking in that moment.

----------


## magpieM

> You know I've often wondered what Jason was thinking in that moment.


At that moment he was ready to die in the hand of Batman, a father figure, a mentor, someone he'd been crazily over-obsessed with since he came back to life...

----------


## kaimaciel

https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-dick...ampaign=CBR-TW

Snyder Erases Any Doubt About Identity of Batman v Superman's Dead Robin... It's Dick Grayson. 

Jesus Christ, they really shot themselves in the foot.

----------


## kaimaciel

https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-dick...ampaign=CBR-TW

Snyder Erases Any Doubt About Identity of Batman v Superman's Dead Robin... It's Dick Grayson. 

Jesus Christ, they really shot themselves in the foot.

----------


## Rise

> I reread the ending of Batman Under the Red Hood and somehow was surprised that Jason was crying when giving Batman the "ultimatum" to either kill the Joker or Jason. Totally forgot about that detail and only remembered that the whole final confrontation between Bruce and Jason was so f*cking emotional. (And the Joker had the time of his life) I wonder what Jason was thinking at that moment.
> 
> The next RHatO issue has some flashbacks if I remember correctly, right?
> 
> Attachment 68824


Was this after Batman refused to do it? It's been so long since I read UTRH, but I always thought it was because he was super disappointed and let down by how Batman handle it. You can even see it in his face in the movie.

----------


## Rise

Btw, since we are going to start a new era with RHATO and the team will break soon, what's your favourite moment, issue, arc so far?

----------


## Zaresh

> Btw, since we are going to start a new era with RHATO and the team will break soon, what's your favourite moment, issue, arc so far?


I know I'm probably in the minority here, but the date issue (and the letter issue, but that's probably a fave for a lot) were highlights for me for very different reasons. I also liked a lot two or three other scenes, like the one in Qurac with Jason and his teen self, the introductions of Biz and Art, and the final half of the chase for Black Mask with Bizarro and Artemis: it was a rewarding end for that arc.

----------


## Zaresh

Another double post.

----------


## Aioros22

> https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-dick...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> Snyder Erases Any Doubt About Identity of Batman v Superman's Dead Robin... It's Dick Grayson. 
> 
> Jesus Christ, they really shot themselves in the foot.


There is no "they" really, the visit to the Studio has the responsible of the tour saying it's Jason. That alone shows diverging opinions. 

And since it didn't go forward, well.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-dick...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> Snyder Erases Any Doubt About Identity of Batman v Superman's Dead Robin... It's Dick Grayson. 
> 
> Jesus Christ, they really shot themselves in the foot.


They love Jason's story and giving it to other people, don't they? Pathetic.

----------


## G-Potion

> Btw, since we are going to start a new era with RHATO and the team will break soon, what's your favourite moment, issue, arc so far?


I can't choose!!! There are simply too many. I'd even say that, every issue, regardless of quality, there's at least one moment that makes the whole thing worth it to me. That said, my top picks include Jason's portion in the Qurac issue; all the Bizzaro and Jason bonding moments throughout the series; Jason digging Willis' grave; and the entirety of #24. Who knows, maybe #25 will top all of them.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-dick...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> Snyder Erases Any Doubt About Identity of Batman v Superman's Dead Robin... It's Dick Grayson. 
> 
> Jesus Christ, they really shot themselves in the foot.


Oh well. Then it's a good thing it crashed and burned.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Btw, since we are going to start a new era with RHATO and the team will break soon, what's your favourite moment, issue, arc so far?


Favorite moment(s): Pretty much any interaction between Biz and Jason.

Favorite issue: "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Bizarro? And the date issue.

Favorite arc: The current one.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Oh well. Then it's a good thing it crashed and burned.


Honestly I can see why Snyder might decide to take that route. The movies appeal to more than just the comic book fanbase and a lot of the General Audience aren't even aware that there have been other Robins aside of Dick Grayson. Heck back when Jason Todd was killed people in that GA group thought DC had killed Dick Grayson off not someone else. That being the case it makes more sense for them to kill off Dick Grayson, who most people might be familiar with, then to kill off Jason Todd who they don't know from Adam.

Also the DCEU isn't the same thing as the comic book DCU anyway so the difference between them doesn't really bother me much. Different universe, different outcomes and all that.

----------


## G-Potion

> Honestly I can see why Snyder might decide to take that route. The movies appeal to more than just the comic book fanbase and a lot of the General Audience aren't even aware that there have been other Robins aside of Dick Grayson. Heck back when Jason Todd was killed people in that GA group thought DC had killed Dick Grayson off not someone else. That being the case it makes more sense for them to kill off Dick Grayson, who most people might be familiar with, then to kill off Jason Todd who they don't know from Adam.
> 
> Also the DCEU isn't the same thing as the comic book DCU anyway so the difference between them doesn't really bother me much. Different universe, different outcomes and all that.


That might be the case. Personally though, I have an intense dislike for giving something that's iconic of one character to another. So, still glad it crashed and burned.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That might be the case. Personally though, I have an intense dislike for giving something that's iconic of one character to another. So, still glad it crashed and burned.


I have an intense dislike for the same but only insofar as it applies within various universal continuities. In the DCEU there was no Jason Todd so, in effect, nothing iconic was stolen from him insofar as that particular continuity is concerned. Jason's death is iconic in many other media just not this particular one and since I have a tendency toward treating characters and events in each media type as being unique to those specific universes its not very often that I have a problem when one of them goes "off script" from source material. This just happens to be one of those times.  :Smile:

----------


## Rise

The general audience don't even know who the heck is Dick. A lot of people know Robin as just Robin (I watched the animated series and the movies with Clooney and I still didn't know Dick when I was a kid and neither anyone I know who watched or liked Batman).

If we are talking about the people who have a general idea about DC (but don't read or care about comics), they do know about Jason. UTRH and Arkham Knight made him pretty popular among them and they are fully aware of his story. Whatever Snyder's reason, it doesn't look like he shared it with his bosses or anyone since Nightwing movie was announced before DCEU was crushed and Snyder being replaced.

----------


## Rise

> I know I'm probably in the minority here, but the date issue (and the letter issue, but that's probably a fave for a lot) were highlights for me for very different reasons. I also liked a lot two or three other scenes, like the one in Qurac with Jason and his teen self, the introductions of Biz and Art, and the final half of the chase for Black Mask with Bizarro and Artemis: it was a rewarding end for that arc.


Issue 23 is the best single issue I read in such a long time. Definitely a favourite of mine. 

The date issue was pretty fun, I liked it.




> I can't choose!!! There are simply too many. I'd even say that, every issue, regardless of quality, there's at least one moment that makes the whole thing worth it to me. That said, my top picks include Jason's portion in the Qurac issue; all the Bizzaro and Jason bonding moments throughout the series; Jason digging Willis' grave; and the entirety of #24. Who knows, maybe #25 will top all of them.


I noticed that Jason's moments in the second arc pretty are liked by many.




> Favorite moment(s): Pretty much any interaction between Biz and Jason.
> 
> Favorite issue: "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Bizarro? And the date issue.
> 
> Favorite arc: The current one.


Nice choices.

----------


## Zaresh

Oh, nice! So we are more than a few who liked the date issue. It's odd, because many reviews and comments I read somewhere else, back when it was released, were mild. There was a lot of people who didn't really enjoyed that issue because they felt it didn't advance and so, was a waste of time. Which is fair, but it really wasn't the point of what was telling (it was a strong issue that showed their relationships) and it did advance the plot; it gave us Solitary, and made us aware of Artemis and Jason being concerned about Biz (we weren't even sure that Jason had noticed a thing). It also had some pretty damn good art to go with the story and its mood. A great issue for me (and that's the reason I was surprised for said reviews).

----------


## Aahz

Am I the only one who thinks Jason looks kind of wired here?

----------


## Aahz

When it comes to the DCEU Robin I speculated allready back than that Dick might be the dead Robin, simply because having allready two Robins before the actual start of that universe would be seen as to convoluted for the genenral audience and it having a bigger impact. And sofar they usually either skipped or combined Robins in their universes in other media.

----------


## Zaresh

> Am I the only one who thinks Jason looks kind of wired here?


More like serious, maybe. But it's hard to tell. It's a too tiny picture, and I think that, in most cases, when you draw stuff like this, this kind of pictures in a panel that shares the page with many others tends to be almost gesture drawing.

----------


## Jackalope89

> When it comes to the DCEU Robin I speculated allready back than that Dick might be the dead Robin, simply because having allready two Robins before the actual start of that universe would be seen as to convoluted for the genenral audience and it having a bigger impact. And sofar they usually either skipped or combined Robins in their universes in other media.


Could have sworn it was confirmed that the dead Robin was Jason. And pretty sure the beginning of Suicide Squad, when it introduced Joker and Harley, stated as much.

----------


## Arsenal

> Am I the only one who thinks Jason looks kind of wired here?


What series/issue is this from?

----------


## G-Potion

Deathstroke 34.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/ryanwinn






Superman? Guess he'll save the falling HQ.

----------


## Arsenal

> Deathstroke 34.


Oh so it's from this weeks issue. Sweet.

----------


## G-Potion

> Am I the only one who thinks Jason looks kind of wired here?


Personally I think he looks fine albeit smaller than Dick, but I'm not too fixated on that. His hair is what he has in RHATO. He's not smiling hence the face.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Could have sworn it was confirmed that the dead Robin was Jason. And pretty sure the beginning of Suicide Squad, when it introduced Joker and Harley, stated as much.


The intro said she was an accomplice to the murder of Robin.

----------


## Aahz

> Could have sworn it was confirmed that the dead Robin was Jason. And pretty sure the beginning of Suicide Squad, when it introduced Joker and Harley, stated as much.


They never mentioned his name iirc.

----------


## Aahz

> Personally I think he looks fine albeit smaller than Dick, but I'm not too fixated on that. His hair is what he has in RHATO. He's not smiling hence the face.


He looks imo to small and slim, and his hair is imo usually also different.

----------


## thebluefeline

Final concept art from DC Nations:
1533111858598.jpg

----------


## Rise

Here it's.

I was waiting for this issue of DC Nation hoping that we will finally see the new design and they actually did it. Good on you DC.

And btw, it's 6 pages long and has some information about the new arc for anyone interested.

----------


## Sergard

> Was this after Batman refused to do it? It's been so long since I read UTRH, but I always thought it was because he was super disappointed and let down by how Batman handle it. You can even see it in his face in the movie.


Yeah, it's only a few pages after Batman saying that it would be too "easy" to cross the line. And Jason replying "I'm not talking about killing Cobblepot and Scarecrow or Clayface. Not Riddler or Dent... I'm talking about HIM. Just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you."

I was a little disappointed in Alfred too when he mentioned in his narrative thoughts that Jason had a "mean streak" as Robin like Jason was some kind of psychopath.




> At that moment he was ready to die in the hand of Batman, a father figure, a mentor, someone he'd been crazily over-obsessed with since he came back to life...


At least it feels like that. Although Jason was already "crazily over-obsessed" with Bruce since they met. Bruce (and Alfred) was probably the closest thing Jason ever had to a family and therefore the most important person in his life. And I don't think Bruce ever understood what it can do to one's mind if one is born and raised in an environment like Jason did.




> Btw, since we are going to start a new era with RHATO and the team will break soon, what's your favourite moment, issue, arc so far?


There have been three arcs so far, right? Black Mask, Qurac and Smart-Bizarro.
My favorite arc as a whole from start to finish is the first one. The basic story is simple but it's a coherent narrative that allows for a more detailed characterization of the three main characters.
I didn't like the second arc because I couldn't really get into the story of Artemis and Akila, especially since Akila died shortly after she was introduced. But the arc had some of the best/most interesting Jason moments.
The current arc probably has the best final. But it was a little bit of a bumpy ride. There were so many mini-stories involved (Suicide Squad, Henchman App, Queen Bee) that it confused me a little bit where the story was headed to.

My favorite issue is the current one but there is a high chance that this will change soon when the next issue comes out. I also loved issue 4 for the Jason and Bizarro bonding.

I have way to many favorite moments to pick one. There are emotional ones like Jason giving Bizarro a chance of living in issue 7 or dark ones like Jason telling his younger self in in issue 9 that he would maybe have been better off dead. And not to forget funny ones like Artemis grabbing Jason at the collar in issue 2 and hauling him up like some impudent little brat.




> Am I the only one who thinks Jason looks kind of wired here?
> https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...9e19zukume.jpg


Why are all the four robins wearing the same clothes? Was there some purpose behind it or was there some kind of sale Alfred got his hands on?

----------


## RedBird

> Final concept art from DC Nations:
> Attachment 68890


Why hello there, Winter Soldier Punisher, when did you arrive?

All jokes aside, whilst the outfits fine, I especially like the half mask thing, I still prefer his OG uniform. Here's hoping there will be a return to form eventually. BUT, I don't mind this uniform being added to his collection for the foreseeable future. I do like the addition of the Katana, I'm not surprised Lobdell wanted that weapon considering he also used one in the futures end storyline which also featured Jason slightly going off the deep end.


EDIT: Thanks for the heads up Rise! The DC Nation pages are pretty in depth, and it's interesting to read and see the artists process. The challenge of changing what he himself describes as an iconic look. The fact that he tried taking inspiration from other cool designs like assassins creed or Reaper (overwatch). And also adding the red stripes on the pants as both a way of defining his form in shadows and cause....Han Solo. Haha, Any reference drenched in 80s nostalgia used in conjunction with Jason always makes me happy.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Here it's.
> 
> I was waiting for this issue of DC Nation hoping that we will finally see the new design and they actually did it. Good on you DC.
> 
> And btw, it's 6 pages long and has some information about the new arc for anyone interested.


Tried to post the rest but my phone doesn't wanna cooperate with me right now so post away if you have them  :Big Grin: 

I like the outfit and the katana as a weapon choice but the hairstyle and the face mask is ehh. The hairstyle is a bad reminder of Arkham!Tim ><

----------


## G-Potion

> Final concept art from DC Nations:
> Attachment 68890


I _love_ this design. Not saying whether it's better or worse than his past looks, but I love the thoughts going into designing this. And overall, it's pretty fresh and bold. A good addition to Jason's wardrobe. Last but not least, _katana_. YES! (Though I hoped they'd have explained a bit about the lack of guns.)

He looks like he fits right in the next Mortal Kombat, by the way.

I wasn't sure about what they said regarding his logo though. Is the one on his chest the finalized? Is it supposed to represent the Bat/skull idea?

----------


## G-Potion

> Here it's.
> 
> I was waiting for this issue of DC Nation hoping that we will finally see the new design and they actually did it. Good on you DC.
> 
> And btw, it's 6 pages long and has some information about the new arc for anyone interested.


Nice. Thanks for the heads-up. Gonna have a look now.

----------


## RedBird

> I _love_ this design. Not saying whether it's better or worse than his past looks, but I love the thoughts going into designing this. And overall, it's pretty fresh and bold. A good addition to Jason's wardrobe. Last but not least, _katana_. YES! (Though I hoped they'd have explained a bit about the lack of guns.)
> 
> He looks like he fits right in the next Mortal Kombat, by the way.
> 
> I wasn't sure about what they said regarding his logo though. Is the one on his chest the finalized? Is it supposed to represent the Bat/skull idea?


In regards to the guns, I'll have to reread, but I don't think they give a reason for the lack thereof other than the fact that Jason is becoming more hands on and in your face, 'taking risks' and that due to all this pent up rage he may have a bit of a death wish.

The chest logo as far as we know is the final product, and was designed to make him stand out and differ from the batfamily whilst still retaining some bat element. It looks like Woods was trying to implement some skull like imagery before realizing that the shadow created by the hood over Jasons eyes was a pretty 'graphic' image and so designed the logo based on that idea.

logos.JPG

----------


## G-Potion

I'm getting all the pages up here for easy viewing.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

> In regards to the guns, I'll have to reread, but I don't think they give a reason for the lack thereof other than the fact that Jason is becoming more hands on and in your face, 'taking risks' and that due to all this pent up rage he may have a bit of a death wish.


I remember some of us speculated about his death wish based on his diminished armor. Not too far-fetched now. This is a point I really want to see explored to be honest. UTRH Jason was ready to die when his wish wasn't granted. Lobdell has also implied times and times again that Jason isn't particularly _thrilled_ to be alive. And now that looks to be getting much bleaker.

----------


## G-Potion

Gotta say though, by itself the crowbar doesn't get any points from me but combining it with the tire iron? Ingenious!

----------


## RedBird

> I remember some of us speculated about his death wish based on his diminished armor. Not too far-fetched now. This is a point I really want to see explored to be honest. UTRH Jason was ready to die when his wish wasn't granted. Lobdell has also implied times and times again that Jason isn't particularly _thrilled_ to be alive. And now that looks to be getting much bleaker.


It was one of the aspects of the rebirth run that I very much enjoyed, like the small implications he made about Jasons less than stable mental well being and possible PTSD symptoms. I'm hoping that along with some 'bad ass' moments, we could get a more in depth look into Jasons existential issues/trauma and how he is coping, albeit even in this unhinged and aggressive way.

----------


## Zaresh

> Final concept art from DC Nations:
> Attachment 68890


Not really digging it. I don't mind but... too... I don't know. Grim? In a... in an urban way, I guess. My problem are the too blocky body buitl, the boots an his mask/domino.

But I can deal with it if I like the story without any problem. I'd like to read those pages, see what's all about.

Also, a sword. Nice.

----------


## G-Potion

> Not really digging it. I don't mind but... too... I don't know. Grim? In a... in an urban way, I guess. My problem are the too blocky body buitl, the boots an his mask/domino.


Personally I think it looks blocky because of the artist's style rather than the costume itself. I imagine under some other artists, it could have a very lean look, considering the lack of sleeves on the hood jacket, might cut off quite a bit of bulk. That and how the hood is drawn I guess. In this instance it looks quite thick and doesn't have much folding.

----------


## Zaresh

> Personally *I think it looks blocky because of the artist's style rather than the costume* itself. I imagine under some other artists, it could have a very lean look, considering the lack of sleeves on the hood jacket, might cut off quite a bit of bulk. That and how the hood is drawn I guess. In this instance it looks quite thick and doesn't have much folding.


Could be. To be honest, I like most of the design, but I really am not won by the eyes and the boots. I like the hood, I even like that he has a mask and a domino-like. But the eyes themselves, the style of the domino... It's like looking some late 90's early 00's darky hero design from some videogame. And for me, it clashes with the rest of the design that, as someone else said, it's very 80's (reminds me... of Casey from the TMNT, now that I think about it. And... it somehow works).

Finally at home! I've to read those pages. Thanks a bunch, @Bluefeline, @RedBird and @G-Pots!

Edited again: nevermind my comment on the boots. Now that I can see them clearly, I like them better. I thought he had some pointy stuff in them earlier from my phone. Still, the domino is a bit too... I dunno. Maybe it's the style. A normal domino should work, but there's something there that doesn't fit for me. But, er, minute disliking, not really a deal.

----------


## Rise

I didn't like it much when I first saw the leaked pics, but I like it now much better and how much thoughts they put in it. I'm getting more and more excited for new direction. 

Also from DC Nation, Lobdell was interestingly enough in the DC Summit where he talked about the new direction for Jason with other writers.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The logo still sucks, I'm not seeing Jason's face there, I'm seeing a Madagascar's Penguin.

----------


## Rise

"Madagascar's Penguin"



This...a really weird comparison.

----------


## G-Potion

> "Madagascar's Penguin"
> 
> 
> 
> This...a really weird comparison.


I didn't know what Dark talked about but this had me crack up.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

And fanartist are fast, as expected.

https://twitter.com/maple_DC

----------


## G-Potion

> Also from DC Nation, Lobdell was interestingly enough in the DC Summit where he talked about the new direction for Jason with other writers.


Ah, didn't read the whole thing so I must have missed that bit. I hope other writers will be excited for this new direction and more inclined to write Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> "Madagascar's Penguin"
> 
> 
> 
> This...a really weird comparison.


@Rise, I like you.
I myself still like to think it's a fox head. But now, I'm totally seeing... Moon Knight's black mask.

But that one was fun. It made me laugh.

----------


## Aahz

> Not really digging it. I don't mind but... too... I don't know. Grim? In a... in an urban way, I guess. My problem are the too blocky body buitl, the boots an his mask/domino.


I like that h more blocky, I think most artist draw him to slim and lean. He should be noticeable taller and broader than Dick.

----------


## kiwiliko

> "Madagascar's Penguin"
> 
> 
> 
> This...a really weird comparison.


I kinda see it, Madagascar did have a Rockhopper penguin brought over once and I guess the angry eyebrows looks a bit like the contour of Jasons new mask. Even the new red eyes match.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

This is what I see on Jason's new logo

----------


## G-Potion

Does anyone feel that RHATO and Jason have been getting more coverage from websites (and DC too?) lately? Still waiting for that Lobdell interview though.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is what I see on Jason's new logo


This Madagascar Penguin business keeps getting better and better.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Final concept art from DC Nations:
> Attachment 68890


Honestly I can't say I'm really digging the new look at all even after seeing a better picture of it. It too much and I still really dislike the crowbar but if I can put up with his Red Hood/Arsenal get-up and his pill helmet during Pre-FP I can put up with this one. Who knows maybe I'll be able to get used to it over time if the stories are decent. I'm putting a lot of faith in Lobdell to not mess this up so I hope the direction is a bit more nuanced than "Jason has another psychotic break and runs mad with a crowbar."

----------


## kiwiliko

> This Madagascar Penguin business keeps getting better and better.


Sheer amount of arsenal Jason has, I'm torn between Jason is a Skipper or Jason is a Rico.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sheer amount of arsenal Jason has, I'm torn between Jason is a Skipper or Jason is a Rico.


But hey, how are you feeling the new costume? I'm curious to know.

----------


## Zaresh

I give up. I cannot stop laughing now.

----------


## kiwiliko

> But hey, how are you feeling the new costume? I'm curious to know.


I really like this one, out of the lineup I probably would've leaned towards this design even if they didn't pick it. Although just considering the fact Jason always has a much more padded and armor like costume out of the family where Dick or Bruce get away with a skin tight look, I think the style of the artist is gonna change how I feel about it most. It looks a lot busier if Jason is drawn bulky sheerly because modern armour looks like an extra marshmellow layer when worn on an average body type. I think if we kept to Soy's current shape for Jason it's gonna look just fine and even the fanartists piece too looks great. 
The previous costume was blue tinted bodysuit on brown jacket and red helmet which I gotta admit was pretty hard to balance. The new one spreads out his bright colors more and is pretty comfortable leading the eye around.
(only issue I have is his shaved head. I love Dexter Soys hair style for him and I accept nothing short of Jason having a mulan moment if we're keeping his new shaved head).

----------


## G-Potion

> I really like this one, out of the lineup I probably would've leaned towards this design even if they didn't pick it. Although just considering the fact Jason always has a much more padded and armor like costume out of the family where Dick or Bruce get away with a skin tight look, I think the style of the artist is gonna change how I feel about it most. It looks a lot busier if Jason is drawn bulky sheerly because modern armour looks like an extra marshmellow layer when worn on an average body type. I think if we kept to Soy's current shape for Jason it's gonna look just fine and even the fanartists piece too looks great. 
> The previous costume was blue tinted bodysuit on brown jacket and red helmet which I gotta admit was pretty hard to balance. The new one spreads out his bright colors more and is pretty comfortable leading the eye around.
> (only issue I have is his shaved head. I love Dexter Soys hair style for him and I accept nothing short of Jason having a mulan moment if we're keeping his new shaved head).


I couldn't agree more. Really feel your point on the color scheme of the last costume. And the hair... is gone! Again agree with you. Only consolidation I'll accept is that we get a hair cutting "this is a new me" scene.

----------


## Aioros22

Looks pretty good. Only thing I`d change would be the red boots seen in round 24 instead of the final ones, but I like the green hornet mask style on top of the domino and I love the use of the crowbar with the tire iron. 

All the right urban mixes of the Hornet, Casey Jones and Daredevil. There`s hardly any Punisher here which I applaud.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

This is even better.
1533146499878.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

Only miss for me is the logo. He should have none but on the bright side, it`s not exactly a bat anymore.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Looks pretty good. Only thing I`d change would be the red boots seen in round 24 instead of the final ones, but I like the green hornet mask style on top of the domino and I love the use of the crowbar with the tire iron. 
> 
> All the right urban mixes of the Hornet, Casey Jones and Daredevil. There`s hardly any Punisher here which I applaud.


I'd rather just have the domino and no mask at all. The mask they went with makes the whole costume take on a Winter Soldier knock-off vibe to me. Also if they were going for a look that allowed them show more emotion, as was said in the DC Nation article, than covering the lower half of the face is not a way to do that. In fact having both a domino and the lower half covered completely prevents that.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is even better.
> 1533146499878.jpg


I think we're gonna see something like this in fanarts soon enough. The emoting logo, I mean.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'd rather just have the domino and no mask at all. The mask they went with makes the whole costume take on a Winter Soldier knock-off vibe to me. Also if they were going for a look that allowed them show more emotion, as was said in the DC Nation article, than covering the lower half of the face is not a way to do that. In fact having both a domino and the lower half covered completely prevents that.


I think what was said was they wanted the ability to emote but at the same time retained the point that Jason should be more hidden/covered than the other Bats, visually and emotionally.

----------


## G-Potion

> Looks pretty good. Only thing I`d change would be the red boots seen in round 24 instead of the final ones, but I like the green hornet mask style on top of the domino and I love the use of the crowbar with the tire iron.


Admittedly not as practical as the katana, might even look ridiculous sometimes but the dual symbolism of tire iron and crowbar is amazing.

----------


## millernumber1

> Final concept art from DC Nations:
> Attachment 68890


Does this mean Pete Woods is going to be on Red Hood for the next part of the run? That would be pretty cool!

----------


## Robotman

It’s ok. Glad he finally got his own symbol. Was so tired of it just being a red Bat logo. I like incorporating the skull into it but at the end of the day it’s just too similar to the Punisher. Not really feeling the Shredder face mask. I think Jason’s helmet has already become pretty iconic. So I think it’s only a matter of time before it comes back. Absolutely love the crowbar/tire iron! It’s more of a personalized weapon rather than just guns. The actual hood is ok but I don’t know how Jason is gonna fight without peripheral vision. 

I still don’t understand why they haven’t given him the white streak in his hair. It’s a cool look that harkens back to his death and also helps differentiate him from Dick Grayson.

----------


## G-Potion

> Does this mean Pete Woods is going to be on Red Hood for the next part of the run? That would be pretty cool!


Yes he is!

----------


## Armor of God

I like the hair cut and the goggles/domino mask but that's pretty much it. But the book has been so good so as long as it retains its quality then I'm board.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think what was said was they wanted the ability to emote but at the same time retained the point that Jason should be more hidden/covered than the other Bats, visually and emotionally.


I fail to see how he can emote at all with his lower face covered. They may as well have kept the full helmet with a new design in that case. It's also not going to be practical to pull off the lower mask any time he wants to emote either.  




> Admittedly not as practical as the katana, might even look ridiculous sometimes but the dual symbolism of tire iron and crowbar is amazing.


I like the duel symbolism there but I'm still never going to like that he's taking to the streets with THE crowbar. Nothing is going to change my mind on that one.

----------


## Aioros22

> I think what was said was they wanted the ability to emote but at the same time retained the point that Jason should be more hidden/covered than the other Bats, visually and emotionally.


It is a thin line and is balsy. Hopefully they can pull it off. 

Couple things. 

1- It is not easy but they can emote. Think the Green Hornet. Think Spiderman. Think the Shredder. 

2- Speaking of Shredder, some will compare it with Bucky, but he has not been wearing it and it's been done before. Both the Shredder and Green Hornet (and the Sandman after a fashion) have it and it harpens back to samurai face masks and victorian Pulp. 

Inevitably, his iconic helmet will come back and will look good too. 

3- The tire iron and the The crowbar. The beginning and end of Jason Todd. That's a theatrical tour de force.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yes he is!


That's really cool news! I loved his art for Justice League! And, of course, his part work in Gotham on Tec and Robin.

----------


## Zaresh

> It is a thin line and is balsy. Hopefully they can pull it off. 
> 
> Couple things. 
> 
> 1- It is not easy but they can emote. Think the Green Hornet. Think Spiderman. Think the Shredder. 
> 
> 2- *Speaking of Shredder, some will compare it with Bucky, but he has not been wearing it and it's been done before.* Both the Shredder and Green Hornet (and the Sandman after a fashion) have it and it harpens back to samurai face masks and victorian Pulp. 
> 
> Inevitably, his iconic helmet will come back and will look good too. 
> ...


As far as I know, James didn't always wear the mask, not post his coming back, until the movie came. He doesn't wear it nowadays, either. I think: I may be wrong (and I like Bucky with short hair, domino and no mask, so...).

I think the dual tyre-crowbar is an ironic weapon with a wild meta-reason behind it, mostly for the fun and enjoyment of readers and writer alike, as well as probably a way to show how dramatic Jason is being at the moment. It's silly, but it's a good silliness, probably, and I trust them to deliver it's addition alright, with proper sense and actual serious not over-dramatic mood (as confusing as it may sound).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> As far as I know, James didn't always wear the mask, not post his coming back, until the movie came. He doesn't wear it nowadays, either. I think: I may be wrong (and I like Bucky with short hair, domino and no mask, so...).
> 
> I think the dual tyre-crowbar is an ironic weapon with a wild meta-reason behind it, mostly for the fun and enjoyment of readers and writer alike, as well as probably a way to show how dramatic Jason is being at the moment. It's silly, but it's a good silliness, probably, and I trust them to deliver it's addition alright, with proper sense and actual serious not over-dramatic mood (as confusing as it may sound).


I don't find the crowbar silly myself. I see it as being a dark symbol of Jason's current state of mind after his falling out with Bruce. The fact that it is now a part of his arsenal only amplifies that idea in my mind anyway. Hopefully, Lobdell can deliver when it comes to the addition of it and how Jason came by the actual crowbar that was used by the Joker to beat him. Nothing will change my mind about its inclusion but an decent explanation might end my complaints about it at least, which I'm sure you all would be happy about.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

To piggy back off of Aioros22's post: The fact that he is running around with both a tire iron and a crowbar I think shows, not only the "beginning and ending of Jason Todd", but that he has a dual nature within himself as well. The tire iron could be seen as symbolically representing "life" while the crowbar represents "death". It quite possible that Lobdell is using those two iconic items as a way to visually show the struggle that Jason is going through at this point in his life.

----------


## Zaresh

> I don't find the crowbar silly myself. I see it as being a dark symbol of Jason's current state of mind after his falling out with Bruce. The fact that it is now a part of his arsenal only amplifies that idea in my mind anyway. Hopefully, Lobdell can deliver when it comes to the addition of it and how Jason came by the actual crowbar that was used by the Joker to beat him. Nothing will change my mind about its inclusion but an decent explanation might end my complaints about it at least, which I'm sure you all would be happy about.  
> 
> To piggy back off of Aioros22's post: The fact that he is running around with both a tire iron and a crowbar I think shows, not only the "beginning and ending of Jason Todd", but that he has a dual nature within himself as well. The tire iron could be seen as symbolically representing "life" while the crowbar represents "death". It quite possible that Lobdell is using those two iconic items as a way to visually show the struggle that Jason is going through at this point in his life.


But it's a tyre that's also a crowbar? or he does have both a crowbar and a tyre? I'm confused. He carries the sword in his left and whatever that is in his right. I don't see a third one, so I guessed that it's a crowtyre (ha ha. No, wait: a tyrebar. Yeah, that sounds better), which for me seems a bit silly, but the right amount of silly. But that's probably just me.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I don't find the crowbar silly myself. I see it as being a dark symbol of Jason's current state of mind after his falling out with Bruce. The fact that it is now a part of his arsenal only amplifies that idea in my mind anyway. Hopefully, Lobdell can deliver when it comes to the addition of it and how Jason came by the actual crowbar that was used by the Joker to beat him. Nothing will change my mind about its inclusion but an decent explanation might end my complaints about it at least, which I'm sure you all would be happy about.  
> 
> To piggy back off of Aioros22's post: The fact that he is running around with both a tire iron and a crowbar I think shows, not only the "beginning and ending of Jason Todd", but that he has a dual nature within himself as well. The tire iron could be seen as symbolically representing "life" while the crowbar represents "death". It quite possible that Lobdell is using those two iconic items as a way to visually show the struggle that Jason is going through at this point in his life.


I actually wonder if he's going through nihilistic tendencies during this arc. Maybe he doesn't see there being a reason for his existence thus the whole 'death wish' struggle the artist was talking about. I feel like the upcoming issues are going to be roller coasters of emotion ;_;

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I actually wonder if he's going through nihilistic tendencies during this arc. Maybe he doesn't see there being a reason for his existence thus the whole 'death wish' struggle the artist was talking about. I feel like the upcoming issues are going to be roller coasters of emotion ;_;


I wondered that myself. Didn't Lobdell mention in some interview or other that Jason was going to be questioning his existence and whether he even had a soul a while back? Maybe this is that story. And I agree that these upcoming issues are all going to the emotional roller coasters for both the character and the readers.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

So clearly somebody is a big fan of Sub-Zero.

----------


## AJpyro

Not really feeling the new costume but I feel like it can grow on me.

The crowbar is still a no go. It feels too much. I kinda wish he'd choose a look closer to Future's End. And considering the resemblance to his RHaA look, isn't this kinda spitting on that era since it was kind of a good spot for him with teaming up with Roy?

----------


## Aioros22

> So clearly somebody is a big fan of Sub-Zero.


Who in turn is a major fan of Shredder and who asked Jason to join the Lin Kuei. 

Glass shatters.

----------


## G-Potion

Guys, the tire iron and crowbar were on the earlier designs. Lobdell and Woods went for the katana and crowbar eventually. A bit of a pity, but it's the right choice I think. Considering Jason had his katana in Future's End as well. And is far more practical.

----------


## G-Potion

> So clearly somebody is a big fan of Sub-Zero.


Well Sub-Zero did suggest Jason could join the Lin Kuei. Maybe blue is just not a compromise Jason can take.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Not really feeling the new costume but I feel like it can grow on me.
> 
> *The crowbar is still a no go. It feels too much.* I kinda wish he'd choose a look closer to Future's End. And considering the resemblance to his RHaA look, isn't this kinda spitting on that era since it was kind of a good spot for him with teaming up with Roy?


Pretty much how I feel about the crowbar. I think its a bit too much as well. 




> Guys, the tire iron and crowbar were on the earlier designs. Lobdell and Woods went for the katana and crowbar eventually. A bit of a pity, but it's the right choice I think. Considering Jason had his katana in Future's End as well. And is far more practical.


I'd much rather he just had the katana to be honest. He's feel more samurai to me if that's all he had and I'd probably like that face plate better in that case too.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'd much rather he just had the katana to be honest. He's feel more samurai to me if that's all he had and I'd probably like that face plate better in that case too.


Of course we all want his arsenal to be sensible. Which he's not, right now. So while I don't really like it, especially without tire iron to pair with, it gets the point across as to his mental well being. A necessary evil. As long as it doesn't last forever I'm game.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But it's a tyre that's also a crowbar? or he does have both a crowbar and a tyre? I'm confused. He carries the sword in his left and whatever that is in his right. I don't see a third one, so I guessed that it's a crowtyre (ha ha. No, wait: a tyrebar. Yeah, that sounds better), which for me seems a bit silly, but the right amount of silly. But that's probably just me.


Actually I was a bit wrong there. It's a crowbar and a katana that the artist finally went with. My apologies.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Of course we all want his arsenal to be sensible. Which he's not, right now. So while I don't really like it, especially without tire iron to pair with, it gets the point across as to his mental well being. A necessary evil. As long as it doesn't last forever I'm game.


Yeah, the entire costume and the crowbar really makes it feel like his mental state is not good during this period. I mean he's going out there with the crowbar Joker used on him and with no helmet which, given the head trauma he suffered at Joker's hands, makes no sense. Then there's the fact that he wants to get up close and personal with criminals and has much less armoring then before. All of that paints a pretty grim picture of his mental state. This is going to be some seriously grim sh*t I think. ( I would have never thought that Jason would go about bashing people's faces in with what amounts to Exhibit A in his own murder. That's just insanely dark.)

----------


## thebluefeline

> Yeah, the entire costume and the crowbar really makes it feel like his mental state is not good during this period. I mean he's going out there with the crowbar Joker used on him and with no helmet which, given the head trauma he suffered at Joker's hands, makes no sense. Then there's the fact that he wants to get up close and personal with criminals and has much less armoring then before. All of that paints a pretty grim picture of his mental state. This is going to be some seriously grim sh*t I think. ( I would have never thought that Jason would go about bashing people's faces in with what amounts to Exhibit A in his own murder. That's just insanely dark.)


Wonder if he's going to be able to pull himself together or if he's gonna need some help from someone else. Maybe Starfire after what might happen to Roy or Ma'gunn. Willis Todd even or Damian, Tim, Dick or Bruce. Would love to finally see some reconciliation between Jason and Bruce but it's too much to hope for. Ducra or Essence would be really nice to see again also since the All Caste has been known to help Jason before with mental and emotional issues before.

----------


## G-Potion

Love all the fanarts so far. New costume really works.

https://twitter.com/moon115115

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It took years but is finally acknowledged outside RHATO



*spoilers:*
Roy is totally dying in HIC
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

And it's a pretty good acknowledgement too. It's regrettable that it happens because of such circumstance.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dextersoy

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It took years but is finally acknowledged outside RHATO
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Roy is totally dying in HIC
> *end of spoilers*


That's a nice acknowledgement at least. And if your thought is at all accurate I could see that being something that might push Jason over the edge especially if it happens around the same time as Jason's break with Bruce. Kind of a straw that broke the camel's back scenario.

----------


## oasis1313

> Why hello there, Winter Soldier Punisher, when did you arrive?
> 
> All jokes aside, whilst the outfits fine, I especially like the half mask thing, I still prefer his OG uniform. Here's hoping there will be a return to form eventually. BUT, I don't mind this uniform being added to his collection for the foreseeable future. I do like the addition of the Katana, I'm not surprised Lobdell wanted that weapon considering he also used one in the futures end storyline which also featured Jason slightly going off the deep end.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Thanks for the heads up Rise! The DC Nation pages are pretty in depth, and it's interesting to read and see the artists process. The challenge of changing what he himself describes as an iconic look. The fact that he tried taking inspiration from other cool designs like assassins creed or Reaper (overwatch). And also adding the red stripes on the pants as both a way of defining his form in shadows and cause....Han Solo. Haha, Any reference drenched in 80s nostalgia used in conjunction with Jason always makes me happy.


It made me think of a feed bag on a horse.  But I like it.  I think THE crowbar is pretty ballsy:  Batman goes, "Eeeeeeeekkkkk!" at guns, but Jason uses the very crowbar that killed him to dish out some justice.  Rock on, Jason!

----------


## G-Potion

> It made me think of a feed bag on a horse.  But I like it.  I think THE crowbar is pretty ballsy:  Batman goes, "Eeeeeeeekkkkk!" at guns, but Jason uses the very crowbar that killed him to dish out some justice.  Rock on, Jason!


Exactly. I like how ballsy writers and artists can be when it comes to him.

----------


## Aahz

This conversion between Olli and Roy seems a little bit wired, since Jason is even than Roy is (especially now in Rebirth they were probably aged back close the their pre flashpoint ages).

----------


## Aioros22

I can get why they changed the tire iron for the katana but I don`t agree with it. He doesn`t need to carry a katana, as cool as Future`s End was. He can still summon the All Blades. 

The tire iron and the crowbar are both the beginning and end of his more normal life, which will clearly be a part of his identity crisis. They should have sticked with it.

----------


## G-Potion

I like crowbar/tire iron for the symbolism but visually I think it looks a bit too thug-like and at the same time not deadly enough. And If he's going street level I doubt his enemies are the magical kind that the All Blades can be used against. There's also the problem of them sucking away bits of his soul everytime. Come to think of it, last time the blades disappeared pretty fast. With his current state, he might have even less energy to feed them.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Exactly. I like how ballsy writers and artists can be when it comes to him.


It ballsy I'll grant them that much but the fact that he is using the weapon that was responsible for his murder just gives me the shivers. Its creepy and so very dark.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm gonna be honest, bald Jason doesn't look good. It's really ugly. Even the fan artists don't like it. I know they are trying to make him look less like Dick (after failing to make him like Dick). But they didn't have to go Morrison on him.

----------


## Rise

I know it's a little hard for you to believe, but the world does not revolve around Dick Grayson. The change has nothing to do with him.

----------


## G-Potion

> I know they are trying to make him look less like Dick (after failing to make him like Dick)


Come on. Where did you even get this from.

----------


## Aioros22

> I'm gonna be honest, bald Jason doesn't look good. It's really ugly. Even the fan artists don't like it. I know they are trying to make him look less like Dick (after failing to make him like Dick). But they didn't have to go Morrison on him.


1) There's no need of Morrison, he's changed more hairstyles than the others. The only one he keeps missing you can ponytail yourself. 

2) Who`s playing who in the Titans trailer again?

----------


## Aioros22

@G

Same place it always does.

----------


## Zaresh

So do you people believe that we will know anything more about Jason's family in the next arc? It has been teased in that letter, about his father's father, and his mother parents, and I wonder about it.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

It’s only Pre-Crisis + New 52 Jason was made to act like or copy Dick mostly they are the most unique of the Robin’s where Tim is the average kid who got derailed by turning him into the smartest guy to ever exist. Damian is obsessed with succeeding his dad. Dick should be the Titan-Robin in that all Titans stuff regarding the Batfamily, Jason Resurrected-Robin motivated by his death and hanging around Outlaws, Tim should be the Young Justice-Robin and Damian should be in Gotham staking his claim to the City. The more they are all unique the better.

----------


## Rise

Beside the circus background, how exactly Jason was like Dick? His arc of becoming Robin took time and was completely different from Dick and neither his personality was like him.

And please don't tell me that Jason in n52 is like Dick because he hang out with Roy and Kori and because he is smile? This one of most ridiculous argument I have seen. Is Dick like Tim because he hang out with Kon in YJ?

----------


## Zaresh

Can we just skip the obvious troll in last page and change the theme of discussion? I don't like to talk about who copies who and who's more unique than who, or who's best than who. They all are very subjectives subjects, and depend a lot on what each one has read, and tend to end badly with people angry and headbutting someone else.

----------


## Rise

It's not the first time fans of certain character come here only to talk about how Jason is like Dick or "stealing from him". They need to be told off because this getting old.

They want to discuss the character in the title, they are more than welcome. Just don't come here to troll or diss the character to props up your favourite.

----------


## Zaresh

> It's not the first time fans of certain character come here only to talk about how Jason is like Dick or "stealing from him". They need to be told off because this getting old.
> 
> They want to discuss the character in the title, they are more than welcome. Just don't come here to troll or diss the character to props up your favourite.


Well, if they're here to troll, they're going to be deaf to any argument. But if you want to make the point of Jason and Dick--or any other character, really-- being their own characters since the start of their stories, I'm not going against it. It really cannot hurt, and will prove they're talking nonsense. But I advice not to long in that corner too much, because I've seen so many threads relailed for stuff like that, killing the good mood, that I would feel sorrow if it happens to this one too (when we're having so many exciting news, and we're about to get the Big One and Final-esque Issue).

----------


## Aioros22

Let`s be fair, they hardly discuss their book. It's barely been going over two pages. 

That only makes the usual suspect wanting more attention.

----------


## magpieM

I feel torn about the new design. I do like it, but on the other hand it's too similar with some other comic/game characters. For example, with the hood he looks like Azrael. For the bald one, if the mouth cover is yellow or blue, then he looks exactly like Scorpion or Sub-Zero in previous MK games. And with the hood on he also looks like this two in Injustice I/II DLC

Seriously I begin to wonder if Ed Boon got a hand in the new designs.

----------


## Sergard

> So do you people believe that we will know anything more about Jason's family in the next arc? It has been teased in that letter, about his father's father, and his mother parents, and I wonder about it.


I don't think in the next one but maybe in some arc afterwards. At least it would seem logical for Jason trying to find out what happened to his father. At the moment he doesn't even know if Willis is dead or still alive. It could be a good starting point to contact other members of Willis' family in case they know more.

There is so much personal stuff regarding Jason that could be covered in RHatO:
- the fate of his father
- the fate of his mother (in case she is still alive)
- other relatives
- what happened to other in the past befriended street kids? We know about Gabby but I wouldn't be surprised if others became criminals/villains

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The new logo sucks
fig9EgU.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> The new logo sucks
> fig9EgU.jpg


But this sure doesn't. Too awesome.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> So do you people believe that we will know anything more about Jason's family in the next arc? It has been teased in that letter, about his father's father, and his mother parents, and I wonder about it.


I remembered reading from a tumblr source that more of his family will be making appearances, mostly from Willis's side.

----------


## Sergard

> The new logo sucks
> fig9EgU.jpg


That's sooo cute xD
Can Jason have a pet penguin now or is this too Neon Genesis Evangelion?

I like the new logo and the idea behind. Jason should have his own logo independent of Batman. That's why I didn't like any of the other logo versions, especially the ones with an incorporated skull or demonic look.

----------


## G-Potion

It's the best out of the bunch. But I prefer him not wearing a logo at all. It's fine having one, however, for other purposes outside story.

----------


## G-Potion

@*Dark*: I've been feeling inspired to draw a little something for the new costume. Can I use your design to give Jason a pet penguin?  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rac7d*

Jason looks positively thugly, like what happened, he seems to been bulking, which I don't really mind, I never saw why DC wanted him to be pretty boy like Dick, however this looks isnot doin it for me. Like a beefed up casey Jones. Also the crowbar Is a bit much. I feel like this is some imposter  wanting to impress  Jason, like Tad

----------


## Zaresh

> The new logo sucks
> Attachment 68958


Y-You suck, too!
(Holy sheet of glittering paper, now I want that pengu-pet. *@G-Pots*, do it! Do it!!)

----------


## thebluefeline

> The new logo sucks
> Attachment 68958


waa this is too adorable!! :3

----------


## Restingvoice

> This is what I see on Jason's new logo


I love how you just... get that from a single frame XD I don't even remember this moment! I haven't watched it in a long time. 

Seriously though, I don't like the logo too. I didn't pay attention to it, but now that I look, it's goofy because it looks like he has a face on his chest.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The new logo sucks
> Attachment 68958


This is the best XD

----------


## Restingvoice

> https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited


I will always admire female fan artists' ability to make everything cute or pretty

This doesn't surprise me at all since I've seen how fan artist managed to make Joker pretty, and I don't mean joke pretty, I mean romantic hero pretty.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> @*Dark*: I've been feeling inspired to draw a little something for the new costume. Can I use your design to give Jason a pet penguin?


To be frank I found it on 4chan so.

----------


## FBarnhill

Why does he look like Scorpion?

----------


## G-Potion

To be honest I think the fixation shouldn't be on whether he looks like Scorpion or Ermac or Azrael because come to think about it, most characters will look like some other characters if you really want to see it that way. Rather, look at the design choices which make sense for what the story is going to be about and what the character is going through; and barring the crowbar and logo where YMMV, the rest of the getup is in-character for Jason. That makes it a good design imo.

----------


## G-Potion

Looking handsome!

http://j2ksa.tumblr.com/post/176577716346

----------


## G-Potion

> To be frank I found it on 4chan so.


Darn I really want to draw that penguin.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Funny thing is I like the fan art renditions of the costume but the actual real art for it just doesn't work for me for some reason. Weird.

----------


## kiwiliko

> @*Dark*: I've been feeling inspired to draw a little something for the new costume. Can I use your design to give Jason a pet penguin?


G nooo I was just about to ask the same thing haha  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

> Funny thing is I like the fan art renditions of the costume but the actual real art for it just doesn't work for me for some reason. Weird.


I think it means that the elements of the design are all good. The artist's style decides the rest.

----------


## G-Potion

> G nooo I was just about to ask the same thing haha


We should both do it and ask for permission later?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Darn I really want to draw that penguin.


You really want, you should.
Just sayin'.

----------


## G-Potion

> You really want, you should.
> Just sayin'.


I do. Just wish it were easy to get permission and give credit.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I think it means that the elements of the design are all good. The artist's style decides the rest.


Well I am not a big fan of the new artist on RHATO so that could very well be true. I had the same reaction with the Red Hood/Arsenal design. I liked the fan arts for that one much better as well.

----------


## Rise

> Looking handsome!
> 
> http://j2ksa.tumblr.com/post/176577716346


It seems that some fan artists finally accepted his new haircut and it's actually look good.




> Well I am not a big fan of the new artist on RHATO so that could very well be true. I had the same reaction with the Red Hood/Arsenal design. I liked the fan arts for that one much better as well.


I'm not fan at all of Janin's work, but he made the dcyou costume look good. I think the problem is that it needed a darker colors.

----------


## Rac7d*

> To be honest I think the fixation shouldn't be on whether he looks like Scorpion or Ermac or Azrael because come to think about it, most characters will look like some other characters if you really want to see it that way. Rather, look at the design choices which make sense for what the story is going to be about and what the character is going through; and barring the crowbar and logo where YMMV, the rest of the getup is in-character for Jason. That makes it a good design imo.


so they are doing away with the outlaw angle?

----------


## G-Potion

> so they are doing away with the outlaw angle?


Temporarily maybe.

From DC Nation and the solicits, Jason's exiled and alone by himself. Lost all the tech (likely because HQ was destroyed). He's in a dark place, he's shredding his armor and guns to become more hands-on, _likely has a death wish_. That warrants an extreme outfit change I would think.

----------


## G-Potion

http://dopingues.tumblr.com/post/176609556550

----------


## Godlike13

These penguin caparisons are great. Its all can see now.

----------


## Sergard

I wonder if Jason's shaved head will give the batfamily a clue about his mental state. Especially since Gotham Girl did the same after losing her brother.

----------


## G-Potion

http://sketchrai.tumblr.com/post/176635239586

You only live twice

----------


## G-Potion

http://silkwhale.tumblr.com/post/176628033529

there can only be one hoodie in this family

----------


## G-Potion

http://cornsquash.tumblr.com/post/176626421568

Goodbye kevlar, bat health insurance, and avocado toast brunch.

----------


## G-Potion

http://badlemonade.tumblr.com/post/176612969280

----------


## DragonsChi

I get that the artist wanted to try something new with Jasons new costume....but he really should have left the previous helmet design. The rest of the costume is great but that mask looks really stupid IMO.


Am I the only one who thinks so?

----------


## thebluefeline

> I get that the artist wanted to try something new with Jasons new costume....but he really should have left the previous helmet design. The rest of the costume is great but that mask looks really stupid IMO.
> 
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks so?


Nah I'm of the same opinion. Guess they wanted to do away with the mask for favor of allowing the artist to show more recognizable facial expression that are not hidden behind the hood. I also don't like the sleeveless jacket or the haircut but the color palette, hoodie, boots and the close ranged weapons I actually am happy with.

----------


## Ssstammerer

Sharing my Jaybird keychain gaming.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And Taylor Esposito is off the book as letterer

https://twitter.com/TaylorEspo/statu...00567017955328

So now Lobdell is the only member from the original staff to continue in the series.

----------


## Sergard

> And Taylor Esposito is off the book as letterer
> 
> https://twitter.com/TaylorEspo/statu...00567017955328
> 
> So now Lobdell is the only member from the original staff to continue in the series.


Is there a reason/Are there reasons why nearly the whole team leaves RHatO? And what are there next projects?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Is there a reason/Are there reasons why nearly the whole team leaves RHatO? And what are there next projects?


My guess is they are wanting a particular feel for this story line, something edgy and dark, instead of what we've had since Rebirth started. I imagine that's why the whole new team aside of Lobdell.

----------


## G-Potion

In other news, I just have to say, new outfit is _a blast_ to draw guys. So much fun, and so many options between hood on/off, domino, mask, weapons etc etc.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## thebluefeline

Anyone thinks Scott Lobdell might do another interview anytime soon?

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Anyone thinks Scott Lobdell might do another interview anytime soon?


I really hope he does. I like hearing the things he has planned and actual enjoy his interviews unlike some writers, who I feel give far to much away in them.

----------


## G-Potion

Really hope so. I just dropped the question to Brian over at Batman-news. His last interview with Lobdell was enlightening.


Edit: Hey is the forum working properly now? Loading time is pretty fast for me.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Really hope so. I just dropped the question to Brian over at Batman-news. His last interview with Lobdell was enlightening.
> 
> 
> Edit: Hey is the forum working properly now? Loading time is pretty fast for me.


Awesome! Hope we hear from him soon. 

Seems the forum is back to normal now on my end as well.

----------


## G-Potion

So a source shared a bit of something. They were replying to a comment about Bruce and Penguin.

*spoilers:*
Look, if Jason really wanted Penguin dead, he’d do it where it looked like an accident and Bruce wouldn’t know at all. (Uhhhhhspoilersbedamnbed) Bruce is in one hell of a ride and his actions will show in other titles when characters decide to help or to leave Batman “hanging ”. Jason on the other hand (and Roy) I’m gonna love the annual but the feels in that. …and it’s been building up with Roy too. And for Art and Biz….just get ready for some…(spoilers be damned) …for some reason. A dark tide has come. I even worry for what’s gonna happen to Batgirl with how much craps gonna come. And with Damian “bs” and Tim living the “norm ” life (another bs mind you) Dick and Alfred are gonna ….yeah…anyways I’m just waiting for someone on the team to put Bruce back in his place
*end of spoilers*

And another.

*spoilers:*
It was beautiful. Another story knocked out of the park and I can’t wait for more. And as for family ties….a soul will be torn by blood and love. Just what family will win Jason’s…..(all I can say is Bruce done fd up)
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Raijin

I really don't think our Jaybird deserved that beating he's gotten when you have Kate still being Batwoman like it's nothing. That shade he threw at Batman about Joker was totally accurate. Why not put that same energy towards your villains instead of lashing out at your children? 

I hear next week's issue is going to be very Jason and Roy centric. I don't think I'm ready for that.  :Frown:

----------


## Armor of God

> I really don't think our Jaybird deserved that beating he's gotten when you have Kate still being Batwoman like it's nothing. That shade he threw at Batman about Joker was totally accurate. Why not put that same energy towards your villains instead of lashing out at your children? 
> 
> I hear next week's issue is going to be very Jason and Roy centric. I don't think I'm ready for that.


He was using super mittens against Deathstroke last week and we saw what he did to Karma in Tec. We all know that Batman isn't going to punch guys like Riddler, Penguin, Mad Hatter, Scarecrow etc who're at a hilarious physical disadvantage as hard as people he's trained to be like him such as Nightwing, Red Hood or the other physically adept villains like Slade, Ra's or Bane.

----------


## G-Potion

> I really don't think our Jaybird deserved that beating he's gotten when you have Kate still being Batwoman like it's nothing. That shade he threw at Batman about Joker was totally accurate. Why not put that same energy towards your villains instead of lashing out at your children? 
> 
> I hear next week's issue is going to be very Jason and Roy centric. I don't think I'm ready for that.


And the kicker is that Jason didn't feel like fighting back. The first fight he was throwing shade to goad Batman into hitting him harder and the second fight he was so devastated at the loss of his teammates as well as likely injured from the fall, I feel like the kick he threw at Batman was less about winning and more lashing out/wanting to get it over with.

----------


## Rise

> So a source shared a bit of something. They were replying to a comment about Bruce and Penguin.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Look, if Jason really wanted Penguin dead, hed do it where it looked like an accident and Bruce wouldnt know at all. (Uhhhhhspoilersbedamnbed) Bruce is in one hell of a ride and his actions will show in other titles when characters decide to help or to leave Batman hanging . Jason on the other hand (and Roy) Im gonna love the annual but the feels in that. and its been building up with Roy too. And for Art and Biz.just get ready for some(spoilers be damned) for some reason. A dark tide has come. I even worry for whats gonna happen to Batgirl with how much craps gonna come. And with Damian bs and Tim living the norm  life (another bs mind you) Dick and Alfred are gonna .yeahanyways Im just waiting for someone on the team to put Bruce back in his place
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> And another.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> ...


Don't know if the spoilers are legit or not, but Lobdell being in the summit discussing RHATO, Jason being involved in the three jokers story, other books acknowledging RHATO more nowdays and the new direction all make it look like they are building up to something. 

Whatever they are doing, I hope the results are good.

----------


## Zaresh

Wasn't a really old rumour saying or teasing that Jason would have an important play in some future event? An even that was probably put off, but that was related to the shaping of the new DCU? I think I read this info like... a year or so ago.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Don't know if the spoilers are legit or not, but Lobdell being in the summit discussing RHATO, Jason being involved in the three jokers story, other books acknowledging RHATO more nowdays and the new direction all make it look like they are building up to something. 
> 
> Whatever they are doing, I hope the results are good.


Yeah, all I want is for whatever they are planning to be good and to have good results for Jason in the end.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason's exile from the family won't be a permanent thing. Sooner or later he will be brought into the family simply because that's how they make more money. Is the nature of the business. 

As for the Annual, I can tell you it will be a send-off of sorts for the original team.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't think anyone expected it to be a permanent thing. This development might make Bruce and Jason's eventual reconciliation worth it though. Next time there has to be some other ways other than compromising on Jason's part just so they can be a family.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Assuming the reconciliation doesn't happen because they want Jason to be part of the new crossover that will totally change the universe. For realz this time.

----------


## G-Potion

> Awesome! Hope we hear from him soon.


Aaand I've got my answer!   :Embarrassment:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Aaand I've got my answer!


That's great news. Thanks for posting this G.

----------


## Zaresh

> Aaand I've got my answer!


Gooooood. Thanks a bunch for arking and sharing, G.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Aaand I've got my answer!


yay! Thanks for letting us know  :Big Grin: 

Btw, anyone think that the person Jason last expected to see again from the 27 solicit might be Bruce? I know it would be a little bit too soon maybe but it would be really nice to see them reconcile if Bruce tries to find him after he ditches Gotham. It's mentioned in the solicit that Jason ends up donning the Red Hood gear again so maybe Bruce gave it back to him and gave him permission to come back to Gotham.

Willis Todd would be really neat to see also.

----------


## Sergard

> yay! Thanks for letting us know 
> 
> Btw, anyone think that the person Jason last expected to see again from the 27 solicit might be Bruce? I know it would be a little bit too soon maybe but it would be really nice to see them reconcile if Bruce tries to find him after he ditches Gotham. It's mentioned in the solicit that Jason ends up donning the Red Hood gear again so maybe Bruce gave it back to him and gave him permission to come back to Gotham.
> 
> Willis Todd would be really neat to see also.


I rather believe that Bruce will stop chasing Jason because Heroes in Crisis happens. Back in "A Death in the Family" Bruce had to choose too if he wants to chase the Joker or look for Jason who had run away and was in a pretty bad emotional state.

But maybe it's another member of the family. Batwoman would be cool.

I still don't get what Lobdell wants to do with the Creeper. He seemed important enough to be part of the "fan comic" drawn by Bizarro.

----------


## Raijin

I was talking to a few people on Tumblr and they were pretty much telling me that the Jason and Roy friendship didn't seem genuine to them because everytime they appeared alongside each other Roy was basically there to serve the other. I wanted to know how you guys may feel about it.

----------


## Rise

Huh? If there's one thing tumblr really loved about the last issue is seeing Jason and Roy together again.

Whoever say that their relationship wasn't well developed probably didn't read the books since many who whine and complan about them didn't even bother to read them in the first place. 




> I rather believe that Bruce will stop chasing Jason because Heroes in Crisis happens. Back in "A Death in the Family" Bruce had to choose too if he wants to chase the Joker or look for Jason who had run away and was in a pretty bad emotional state.
> 
> But maybe it's another member of the family. *Batwoman* would be cool.
> 
> I still don't get what Lobdell wants to do with the Creeper. He seemed important enough to be part of the "fan comic" drawn by Bizarro.


Just no. 

I wish it's Willis finally contacting Jason, but I agree with thebluefeline that it might end being Bruce (for whatever reason he decided to show up).

And about Creeper, I think Lobdell was planning to make him join the team before the plan changed. It's probably the reason why we keep seeing him in the "what if" scenarios.

----------


## G-Potion

> But maybe it's another member of the family. Batwoman would be cool.
> 
> I still don't get what Lobdell wants to do with the Creeper. He seemed important enough to be part of the "fan comic" drawn by Bizarro.


After their stint in prison? Nah, I don't really want Batwoman in this title again. And personally I'm not terribly fond of her character either.

As for Creeper, I guess there was a plan to use him long term eventually. Who knows, with his past with Artemis, he might even pop up again the same time what happened between Artemis and Willis comes to light. He fits pretty well with the Outlaws and is exactly the kind of characters that Lobdell likes, and remember there was a round table in the HQ with seven seats or so. Possibly there was a vision of an Outlaws version of the Justice League somewhere.

----------


## G-Potion

> I was talking to a few people on Tumblr and they were pretty much telling me that the Jason and Roy friendship didn't seem genuine to them because everytime they appeared alongside each other Roy was basically there to serve the other. I wanted to know how you guys may feel about it.


It's best if you could read it and see for yourself. But in my opinion, many detractors from Tumblr either have a blind hatred for Lobdell, hate the team lineup, hate because of the Starfire controversy and/or because according to them, the characters are too far removed from their Post Crisis selves. Most of them _don't even read it regularly_ and even fewer do Red Hood/Arsenal. My advice, New 52 was a reboot, so read it without the burden of Post Crisis. Read both series and you'll find that the friendship between Roy and Jason are as mutual, genuine and organic as you can get.

By the way, in Red Hood/Arsenal Jason sacrificed in a big way for Roy. And not just once.

----------


## Sergard

> After their stint in prison? Nah, I don't really want Batwoman in this title again. And personally I'm not terribly fond of her character either.


I'm not mad at Batwoman for the prison-thing. Bizarro was a good manipulator and provoker. Throwing the outlaws in a high-security prison - probably so that Batman can deal with the problem when he is back - doesn't sound that bad of an idea. It's not Batwoman's fault that Bizarro then persuaded Waller to use the Outlaws for a Suicide Squad mission.

And I liked the relationship of Batwoman and Jason in the alternate universe of Bombshells.

The New52 run of Red Hood and the Outlaws was my first DC comic I read - and I wasn't really fond of Roy (and Starfire) back then (that's different now). But Roy and Jason had/have definitely a genuine friendship. Come on, Roy attacked Jason with a flamethrower while showering and Jason was cool with it. A truer friendship doesn't exist.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> yay! Thanks for letting us know 
> 
> Btw, anyone think that the person Jason last expected to see again from the 27 solicit might be Bruce? I know it would be a little bit too soon maybe but it would be really nice to see them reconcile if Bruce tries to find him after he ditches Gotham. It's mentioned in the solicit that Jason ends up donning the Red Hood gear again so maybe Bruce gave it back to him and gave him permission to come back to Gotham.
> 
> Willis Todd would be really neat to see also.


At the moment I doubt very seriously that Jason even wants to see Bruce let alone interact with him so I don't think its him. It would be great if it were someone in the family though so we could at least get some idea of how the rest of the family feels about this situation. I'm not hopeful that other writers are going to do anything more with this then having a passing mention of it if that so Lobdell may very well be on his own with regard to it. 

I think it might actually be Willis that shows up. He is, after all, the last person Jason would be expecting to see since he believes that his dad is dead. 





> But maybe it's another member of the family. Batwoman would be cool.


Er no. I like the character mind you but she did ship the Outlaws off to Waller and frankly if she were to show up I think Jason would believe that she's only there to send him back there on Bruce's orders regardless of her real reason.




> I was talking to a few people on Tumblr and they were pretty much telling me that the Jason and Roy friendship didn't seem genuine to them because everytime they appeared alongside each other Roy was basically there to serve the other. I wanted to know how you guys may feel about it.


Honestly I found his friendship with Roy genuine and organically built over the course of the first RHATO series. There are a lot of people out there that complain about stuff that they've never actually read and who merely parrot what others who claim to have read something say because "hating on such and such" is the kewl thing to do on social media. I'd go back and read the original RHATO N52 run and Red Hood/Arsenal and form your own opinion based on having actually read the material involved and not by just listening to what other people say.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal posted these designs for western RH and Arsenal. 

western_red_hood_and_arsenal___2015_by_denism79-dcjqkq1.jpg

https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...2015-758746729

Lobdell suggested the idea for a possible project but unfortunately, it stayed at that. A pity, because I like the design and I think it would've been cool to see a story/series with the concept.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal posted these designs for western RH and Arsenal. 
> 
> western_red_hood_and_arsenal___2015_by_denism79-dcjqkq1.jpg
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...2015-758746729
> 
> Lobdell suggested the idea for a possible project but unfortunately, it stayed at that. A pity, because I like the design and I think it would've been cool to see a story/series with the concept.


I actually like those designs and I would have loved to see that story. I think it could have been a really fun series. Thanks for sharing that Dark.

----------


## kiwiliko

> Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal posted these designs for western RH and Arsenal. 
> 
> western_red_hood_and_arsenal___2015_by_denism79-dcjqkq1.jpg
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...2015-758746729
> 
> Lobdell suggested the idea for a possible project but unfortunately, it stayed at that. A pity, because I like the design and I think it would've been cool to see a story/series with the concept.


That would have been a pretty cool pitch, the design translates to wild west surprisingly well.

----------


## G-Potion

That looks hella cool. Jason and Roy could have had all the fun adventures had Lobdell been given free reign. :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

@kiwi: I'm drawing Jason's pet penguin as we speak. You should too.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> That would have been a pretty cool pitch, the design translates to wild west surprisingly well.


And the background for each character too. If you think about it, what we could have had with the original team is:
- The wayward son of a vigilante, which is not much different than The Zorro, but mixed up with the Shadow. It works in a western setting.
- An archer, ex-alcoholic misfit with american native ancestors.
- A foreign warrior princess that easily could've been indian or chineese or something exhotic at the time.
- Outlaws in the wild wild west, taking justice by their hand.
- Probably some mystic stuff thrown there in the mixt.

It reads as a really old pulp novel, and that's cool.

----------


## Sergard

> Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal posted these designs for western RH and Arsenal. 
> 
> western_red_hood_and_arsenal___2015_by_denism79-dcjqkq1.jpg
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...2015-758746729
> 
> Lobdell suggested the idea for a possible project but unfortunately, it stayed at that. A pity, because I like the design and I think it would've been cool to see a story/series with the concept.


I would definitely have liked to read a western-style story with Jason and Roy. The Joker design looks good. It's a shame that Lobdell never mentioned in his first RHaTO and RH/A run that Arsenal was adopted into a Navajo tribe as a kid (At least I don't remember). That's an interesting background information I would have liked to have back then.




> So a source shared a bit of something. They were replying to a comment about Bruce and Penguin.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Look, if Jason really wanted Penguin dead, hed do it where it looked like an accident and Bruce wouldnt know at all. (Uhhhhhspoilersbedamnbed) Bruce is in one hell of a ride and his actions will show in other titles when characters decide to help or to leave Batman hanging . Jason on the other hand (and Roy) Im gonna love the annual but the feels in that. and its been building up with Roy too. And for Art and Biz.just get ready for some(spoilers be damned) for some reason. A dark tide has come. I even worry for whats gonna happen to Batgirl with how much craps gonna come. And with Damian bs and Tim living the norm  life (another bs mind you) Dick and Alfred are gonna .yeahanyways Im just waiting for someone on the team to put Bruce back in his place
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> And another.
> 
> *spoilers:*
> ...



When I first read the spoilers I didn't give them much attention because of the lack of concreteness. But reading the first sentence and going back to issue 25 when Jason says "We gonna do this *again*, old man?" I wonder now. What does "again" refer to? Their last fight was in the Rebirth issue of RHatO. Back then Jason faked an assassination on the mayor (live on TV?). So does the "again" just refer to their fight or to Bruce not realizing that Jason is fooling everyone. On the other hand I don't see a reason for Jason why he should do something similar in the Penguin case.

Do we already know the guy who hired Solomon Grundy in issue 12? It could have been Solitary because of the grey suit. But the guy in issue 12 has a (bullet?) hole in his jacket what I've never seen on Solitary.

I also wonder if Willis could be the mastermind behind the henchmen app. In issue 20 Bizarro noted that the henchmen using the app looked "desperate". And that reminds me of Willis who also was desperate back then. It could be his way of helping people out who are in a similar position as he was so that they don't get betrayed by their bosses.

----------


## adrikito

Jason is in *Injustice vs He-Man and the Masters Of The Universe*. You can see him in the preview:

Injustice He-man universe Jason Todd Red Hood.jpg




> It was a quick but nice cameo.
> 
> Injustice meets He-Man 2 preview
> https://www.newsarama.com/41313-he-m...dreams.html#s3
> 
> Assuming this Batman is Damian which I guess is indeed the case. Still he's too bulky imo. Jason is also in it.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And the background for each character too. If you think about it, what we could have had with the original team is:
> - The wayward son of a vigilante, which is not much different than The Zorro, but mixed up with the Shadow. It works in a western setting.
> - An archer, ex-alcoholic misfit with american native ancestors.
> - A foreign warrior princess that easily could've been indian or chineese or something exhotic at the time.
> - Outlaws in the wild wild west, taking justice by their hand.
> - Probably some mystic stuff thrown there in the mixt.
> 
> It reads as a really old pulp novel, and that's cool.


I would have really liked to see that.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is in *Injustice vs He-Man and the Masters Of The Universe*. You can see him in the preview:
> 
> Injustice He-man universe Jason Todd Red Hood.jpg


Thanks for sharing! Good to know he's still his quippy self.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

Totally off topic, but I love how I keep putting unneeded characters in my words when I'm sleepy. I do the same in Spanish as well. Heh...

So it seems that, these days, DC is giving us a lot of Jason in more mineline books. Something is happening, guys. I read out there that Jason detinitely is the focus of one of the three Joker issues by Johns, even if he may not be depicted in the brightest light. Apparently, some of the stories will show how they healed good and how they healed bad. And I would be surprised if Jason is on the good list.

----------


## G-Potion

> Totally off topic, but I love how I keep putting unneeded characters in my words when I'm sleepy. I do the same in Spanish as well. Heh...
> 
> So it seems that, these days, DC is giving us a lot of Jason in more mineline books. Something is happening, guys. I read out there that Jason detinitely is the focus of one of the three Joker issues by Johns, even if he may not be depicted in the brightest light. Apparently, some of the stories will show how they healed good and how they healed bad. And I would be surprised if Jason is on the good list.


Jason can go either way but Bruce needs to be on the bad list for real.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

Yasmine Putri



Aaa can't wait for the finished product.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Totally off topic, but I love how I keep putting unneeded characters in my words when I'm sleepy. I do the same in Spanish as well. Heh...
> 
> So it seems that, these days, DC is giving us a lot of Jason in more mineline books. Something is happening, guys. I read out there that Jason detinitely is the focus of one of the three Joker issues by Johns, even if he may not be depicted in the brightest light. Apparently, some of the stories will show how they healed good and how they healed bad. And I would be surprised if Jason is on the good list.


If the most recent 4chan rumor is true, Jason will definitely be the focus of a big story in the future...but not in the way any of us would want.

EDIT: Hey, the forum is finally working. Nice.

----------


## Ssstammerer

https://twitter.com/jualrus/status/1028196172752510976

----------


## G-Potion

> If the most recent 4chan rumor is true, Jason will definitely be the focus of a big story in the future...but not in the way any of us would want.
> 
> EDIT: Hey, the forum is finally working. Nice.


I can't access 4chan atm so gotta ask, how bad is it?

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/jualrus/status/1028196172752510976


Hmmm.... That could be pretty to look at. I mean, besides knowing that he's a pretty good actor that could pull it. I mean...

----------


## Zaresh

> I can't access 4chan atm so gotta ask, how bad is it?


I'm guessing he's talking about these.

https://boards.fireden.net/co/thread...935/#102266352

Not buying them, at all. Doesn't make sense with what they're building right now. And specially with all that's in the air about how Bendis is not the star he seemed to be sales wise (which, true being told, is not easy to buy too) and how people is unfalling in love with wha's he's pulling. Not to mention giving him ruling powers over such a portion of how the DCU works, not only the Supes portion of it.

I must point out I dislike Bendis for a bunch of reasons (mostly because how he writes). But with my head cold and all that, from a rational POV, it doesn't fit for me. And those rumours I was talking about are way older than Bendis changing companies.

----------


## Rise

Bendis better stay away from my boy.




> Yasmine Putri
> 
> 
> 
> Aaa can't wait for the finished product.


Can't wait for it either. Her work so far has been great.

----------


## Rise

> Totally off topic, but I love how I keep putting unneeded characters in my words when I'm sleepy. I do the same in Spanish as well. Heh...
> 
> So it seems that, these days, DC is giving us a lot of Jason in more mineline books. Something is happening, guys. I read out there that Jason detinitely is the focus of one of the three Joker issues by Johns, even if he may not be depicted in the brightest light. Apparently, some of the stories will show how they healed good and how they healed bad. And I would be surprised if Jason is on the good list.


Johns has the chance to do something no one else has done yet. Have Jason and Bruce talk about what the joker has done.

DITF has affected them both very deeply and they are still not over it. It has a potential to be a really emotional and personal story if Johns handle it well.

----------


## Armor of God

> I'm guessing he's talking about these.
> 
> https://boards.fireden.net/co/thread...935/#102266352
> 
> Not buying them, at all. Doesn't make sense with what they're building right now. And specially with all that's in the air about how Bendis is not the star he seemed to be sales wise (which, true being told, is not easy to buy too) and how people is unfalling in love with wha's he's pulling. Not to mention giving him ruling powers over such a portion of how the DCU works, not only the Supes portion of it.
> 
> I must point out I dislike Bendis for a bunch of reasons (mostly because how he writes). But with my head cold and all that, from a rational POV, it doesn't fit for me. And those rumours I was talking about are way older than Bendis changing companies.


Uh oh. The Leviathan vs Checkmate thing is legit true and it'll also involve Spyral. These are part of Bendis' plans for Action Comics next year. Now you're all thinking just what does Jason and a bunch of Batman related concepts doing in a Superman book right? This is Bendis, he doesn't give a crap about continuity, mythology or staying inside normal limits and you can bet DC will give him power to do whatever he wants. Take his Superman book as an example, he's revealed his pet Rogol to be behind Kryptons destruction and he's linked it all with Tamaran, Green Lanterns etc. I'm seriously worried here, sure Jason will show up in multple books but between this rumor, Mother Panic, Johns comments about not healing right and Jason going brutal we might be seeing the return of late 2000's era Jason. My patience is being stretched thin with DC as it is due to Damian's parentage, Bendis in general , Heroes in Crisis related rumors and the marriage f*ck up. I pray this isn't true.

----------


## FBarnhill

> Some dialogs that suggest Jason left Regime side.
> 
> Red Hood: Call me the Red Hood. 
> Wonder Woman: You're a traitor and a criminal! 
> Red Hood: I don't see the downside.
> 
> Red Hood: I'm not with the Regime. 
> Catwoman: *Oh I'm sorry... murderer.* 
> Red Hood: You walk the grey line too, Selina.
> ...


Two words: Black Mask

----------


## Rise

Mother Panic has nothing to do with anything. The book set in different universe and in completely different imprint where the writer can do whatever they want.

Also, Bendis said that the "Leviathan vs Checkmate" storyline is going to be the second arc of AC (he didn't say it was an event) which will probably start at the same time as The three Jokers story. This alone make it harder to believe that Bendis can use Jason as a "the villain" for an arc or that DC is going to change Jason completely in a book that has nothing to do with him.

----------


## RedBird

j2ksa

hmmm

----------


## G-Potion

> j2ksa
> 
> hmmm


I looked at this, went awed from top to bottom until I saw the pants and realized.... I forgot the darn stripes in my current art. Headesk.

----------


## G-Potion

> Mother Panic has nothing to do with anything. The book set in different universe and in completely different imprint where the writer can do whatever they want.
> 
> Also, Bendis said that the "Leviathan vs Checkmate" storyline is going to be the second arc of AC (he didn't say it was an event) which will probably start at the same time as The three Jokers story. This alone make it harder to believe that Bendis can use Jason as a "the villain" for an arc or that DC is going to change Jason completely in a book that has nothing to do with him.


The timing honestly doesn't make it plausible. Also Jason as a leader of an organization is a very big leap away from his current characterization, regardless of where he stands with Batman.

----------


## Armor of God

> Mother Panic has nothing to do with anything. The book set in different universe and in completely different imprint where the writer can do whatever they want.
> 
> Also, Bendis said that the "Leviathan vs Checkmate" storyline is going to be the second arc of AC (he didn't say it was an event) which will probably start at the same time as The three Jokers story. This alone make it harder to believe that Bendis can use Jason as a "the villain" for an arc or that DC is going to change Jason completely in a book that has nothing to do with him.


I'm saying that it could be part of a trend, I actually like Mother Panic and because its alternate continuity I'm not bothered but Bendis doesn't care about any continuity and neither does Johns. They can write something that completely contradicts the other and DC would allow it. These guys are beyond regular oversight and these rules dont apply to them. Just think about it, why the heck are Spyral and Leviathan even showing up in a Superman book anyway? also since when was Johns a big enough Batman writer to address TKJ and DITF or alter Joker's origins? but here we are.

----------


## Zaresh

> Uh oh. The Leviathan vs Checkmate thing is legit true and it'll also involve Spyral. These are part of Bendis' plans for Action Comics next year. Now you're all thinking just what does Jason and a bunch of Batman related concepts doing in a Superman book right? This is Bendis, he doesn't give a crap about continuity, mythology or staying inside normal limits and you can bet DC will give him power to do whatever he wants. Take his Superman book as an example, he's revealed his pet Rogol to be behind Kryptons destruction and he's linked it all with Tamaran, Green Lanterns etc. I'm seriously worried here, sure Jason will show up in multple books but between this rumor, Mother Panic, Johns comments about not healing right and Jason going brutal we might be seeing the return of late 2000's era Jason. My patience is being stretched thin with DC as it is due to Damian's parentage, Bendis in general , Heroes in Crisis related rumors and the marriage f*ck up. I pray this isn't true.


Eh... Crap.

I guess I'm going to go through a "it doesn't matter, in the end nobody respects Bendis continuity, not even himself" mantra, which is what I did with Moon Knight and Hawkeye when he was involved.

He's a very, very, very flawed writer, from a merely writing style and form point, and I don't like how he writes. I don't like at all. It's not only that he doesn't give the slightest for continuity and previous or even current writers (which is something a lot of writers do). It's that he doesn't know how to write more than two types of characters, doesn't know how to write different voices for those characters, doesn't know how to give actual depth for them, puts too much trust in impact and melodrama, and has unoriginal ideas, and those ideas tend to be very simple, even. And I'm not going to even go into how he doesn't know how to write conclusions and has serious pace issues, because... oh well, I did it in the end, look at that.

I don't like his writing. Yep. I have a hard time getting why there are so many people that like his writing. I hope he doesn't get to put his pen into Jason, honestly.

----------


## G-Potion

Lobdell pls save us.

----------


## Rise

> I'm saying that it could be part of a trend, I actually like Mother Panic and because its alternate continuity I'm not bothered but Bendis doesn't care about any continuity and neither does Johns. They can write something that completely contradicts the other and DC would allow it. These guys are beyond regular oversight and these rules dont apply to them. Just think about it, why the heck are Spyral and Leviathan even showing up in a Superman book anyway? also since when was Johns a big enough Batman writer to address TKJ and DITF or alter Joker's origins? but here we are.


I honestly don't know what "trend" you are talking about. When was Jason used as a villain besides MP to say there's a recent trend?

Why the heck Spyral and Leviathan even showing up in a Superman book? Because no one is using them which make Bendis free to do what he want with them (The Silencer is using Taila despite the book has nothing to do with Batman either). This isn't the same with Jason. 




> since when was Johns a big enough Batman writer to address TKJ and DITF or alter Joker's origins?


Since he became the chief creative officer at DC who wrote multiple successfull books for them. There's no comparison between him and Bendis who just started writing for DC few months ago.

Also, Johns changing the jokers didn't turned Batman suddenly to a different person nor stopped the writers from using the joker the way they want in their books since Rebirth started.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Normally I wouldn't pay mind to rumors like that but when Bendis Is involved in them, all the bets are off. Looking at his career is obvious Bendis writes whatever he wants with no regards for the aftermath. He doesn't care if his ideas end destroying the character development of those involved as long he gets to tell the story he wants.

----------


## Rise

Bendis had complete control over Marvel books, it's not the same with DC where he has only control over Superman. 

Whatever is going on, I'm not going to panic pointlessly over a rumor from 4chan.

----------


## Rise

I'm both impressed and amused by this shirt.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm both impressed and amused by this shirt.


Ha! Ingenious.

----------


## kaimaciel

God no! Keep Bendis away from my boy!

I hated his writing on Marvel. He destroyed characters in order to tell his stories and though he was the man! His arrogance was what annoyed me the most. The stuff he did on Marvel angered a lot of people, I included. 

He was supposed to attend Portugal's Comic-Con last year and I was tempted to show up to the panel just to glare at him. He canceled, which was probably a good thing. I enjoyed myself better that way.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Bendis had complete control over Marvel books, it's not the same with DC where he has only control over Superman. 
> 
> Whatever is going on, I'm not going to panic pointlessly over a rumor from 4chan.


Yeah the only thing Bendis has control over is Superman. 

Also like I said in another post the people on 4 chan tend toward peppering their "rumors" with just enough truth to sound credible but that doesn't necessarily make those "rumors" credible. They're really more like fan speculation that anything else and I doubt they have any more knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes at DC or Marvel than any other fan does. I'm other words they don't really know anything more than anyone else does. Personally, I take "rumors" on there with a large grain of salt because 4 chan isn't a credible source in my opinion.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Sorry double post.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Yeah the only thing Bendis has control over is Superman. 
> 
> Also like I said in another post the people on 4 chan tend toward peppering their "rumors" with just enough truth to sound credible but that doesn't necessarily make those "rumors" credible. They're really more like fan speculation that anything else and I doubt they have any more knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes at DC or Marvel than any other fan does. I'm other words they don't really know anything more than anyone else does. Personally, I take "rumors" on there with a large grain of salt because 4 chan isn't a credible source in my opinion.


They're not really credible for the majority of the rumors that happen there but there have been some that have been accurate. I remember someone who spoil the whole Ma'gunn is Jason's grandmother and Faye is his cousin a while back on one of the threads and they turned out to be right. Same guy (i believe) also revealed a small panel of issue 26 or 27 i think (it's not really a spoiler). Not saying that the rumors with the Leviathan thing is true but some of the rumors on 4chan have been credible to a certain degree.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> They're not really credible for the majority of the rumors that happen there but there have been some that have been accurate. I remember someone who spoil the whole Ma'gunn is Jason's grandmother and Faye is his cousin a while back on one of the threads and they turned out to be right. Same guy (i believe) also revealed a small panel of issue 26 or 27 i think (it's not really a spoiler). Not saying that the rumors with the Leviathan thing is true but some of the rumors on 4chan have been credible to a certain degree.


Well a broken clock does tell the correct time twice a day so it is possible for some of their "rumors" to turn out to be true once in a while. Like I said they do sprinkle in some truth among their speculation. I just classify their "rumors" as fan speculation the same as we engage in here, which means that it basically needs to be treated as such rather than being treated as being something that will happen for certain. That being the case I'm not going to have a knee jerk response over something coming from there. Now if something official corroborates one of these "rumors" then that's another story.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Well a broken clock does tell the correct time twice a day so it is possible for some of their "rumors" to turn out to be true once in a while. Like I said they do sprinkle in some truth among their speculation. I just classify their "rumors" as fan speculation the same as we engage in here, which means that it basically needs to be treated as such rather than being treated as being something that will happen for certain. That being the case I'm not going to have a knee jerk response over something coming from there. Now if something official corroborates one of these "rumors" then that's another story.


Yeah I understand where you're coming from.

----------


## G-Potion

Talking of rumors, there's one from the HiC rumors thread: Roy rejoins Jason as an Outlaw ghost. It made me laugh at first but mulling it over for a while, I realized that would be a neat idea, a team-up between the living and the non-living. Moreover, it opens up the supernatural avenue to explore and I'm a sucker for this. Also reminded me of what a source told me way way back when we were chatting. It was about Rebirth RHATO's first drafts, in which All-Caste made an appearance and Jason's white streak is visible when there's a supernatural presence nearby.

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy

----------


## gwhh

Thanks for infomation.  What issue did he start to use it in?




> Supergirl #35 from the N52 series. Jason was using Venom.

----------


## SpentShrimp

> Denis Medri, former artist of Red Hood/Arsenal posted these designs for western RH and Arsenal. 
> 
> Attachment 69211
> 
> https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...2015-758746729
> 
> Lobdell suggested the idea for a possible project but unfortunately, it stayed at that. A pity, because I like the design and I think it would've been cool to see a story/series with the concept.


Cool pitch, but the designs are pretty "Eh".

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Thanks for infomation.  What issue did he start to use it in?


Issue 36 of RHATO Vol 1. It didn't last, issue 38 opened with him dropping all the Venom into the sea.

----------


## RedBird

ninalinovna

----------


## G-Potion

Ha, I like how they managed to squeeze the white streak in there. All these art make me want to finish my own as soon as I can.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Sergard

I didn't know that "Bluejay" was ever an option for Jason's "Robin" name.
And I'm still not sure if Jason's first costume is better or worse than the classic Robin suit.
By the way, that's from Batman #368. (pre-crisis)

----------


## G-Potion

*Red Hood And The Outlaws Artist Dexter Soy Talks Comics, Collaboration And Rooftop Fights
*

https://thecomicvault.wordpress.com/...ooftop-fights/

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk




Batman Arkham Knight

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason is in the background of MOTU/Injustice Issue 2. Here's hoping he gets a proper role in upcoming issues. 

Amusingly, he doesn't seem to have the white streak.

----------


## Zaresh

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Batman Arkham Knight


This is something beautiful. I love how they render the coloring.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Dexter Soy


You know, I normally stay away from the whole shipping thing. But for these two, I'll make an exception. Don't worry, I won't become one of those obsessive shippers or anything like that. 

I just hope that the Outlaws are reunited down the road. Particularly since, unlike most other team breakups, the three were only physically separated and are still on quite good terms. Considering that they've become essentially a family of black sheep.

----------


## G-Potion

Found a ton of art for Jason's birthday.

https://twitter.com/TT_a_z

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Eskimosheep

My little prince of Gotham

----------


## Sergard

> *Red Hood And The Outlaws Artist Dexter Soy Talks Comics, Collaboration And Rooftop Fights
> *
> 
> https://thecomicvault.wordpress.com/...ooftop-fights/


Soy is working on a relaunch title, interesting.
And I'm a little bit concerned if Pete Woods will be really up to the task. Jason  lying next to Bizarro on the floor in Black Mask's hideout is one of my favorite moments too. And that was all Soy's visual interpretation. Up to now I thought that had been suggested by Lobdell. Soy was often very emotional in his depiction of Jason and didn't shy away from making Jason look vulnerable. I'm not familiar with Woods' work so far. Although I also have to say that Woods' has the advantage that Jason will be alone in the next arc and in a very dark emotional state - so Jason will probalby not be in the mood to lie down and take a breath. On the other hand I hope we'll still see some glimpses of the Jason we know.

----------


## G-Potion

Some of the issues without Soy were also the strongest issues and the art complemented story perfectly, like #7 and #23. Soy also said that Lobdell gives very clear guidance in his script so as long as it remains the case I think Pete Woods will do fine.

Btw, “mad scientist” is such a good way to describe Lobdell.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

JJMK of course

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion



----------


## G-Potion

Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## KC93

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


This is brilliant.  :Smile:  Your art makes the new costume look much better than the official art.

----------


## Zaresh

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


Awesome. Good job, @G-Pots :3.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/Eskimosheep
> 
> My little prince of Gotham


This one is really good too. Wow. And I didn't get to draw anithing, crap. I just arrive home too tired for drawing and painting anything. Two more weeks and I'll be a jobless teacher with a lot of time to spare again.

----------


## G-Potion

Why would you be a jobless teacher when school starts in two weeks?  :EEK!:

----------


## Zaresh

> Why would you be a jobless teacher when school starts in two weeks?


Long story short-ish.

Because I'm really not a teacher now, just an outdoors and hobbies instructor for kids, which is a summer job, honestly. I'm an actual Geography, History and Arts History teacher, for teens. But that work, here, is mostly civil service, and in order to access to a post there, I have to past 2 different tests (that in fact are 3), tests that are called maybe each two or three years, and allow you the access to an on-hold list of hundreds of people for the same post. There's also private high schools (most of them managed by the Church or other religious groups), but if you want to work there, you need to already know people in there who know you (and I don't know anybody yet), or being the perfect candidate (which I know I'm not). Tough luck, but things are like that for many.

Now then, there's still hope. This business I'm currently working for, offers different curses and activities in school time for kids, teens and even adults, I think. And they told me that there's not a lot of people who can teach my, er, my unofficial trade: drawing comic and manga, or teach easy how to. So maybe not the whole year, but I may end up finding sporadic jobs. Meanwhile, I'll prepare myself for the next tests, and for the tests for accessing librarian posts, too (because I'm also a librarian, with my degree and all the jazz), which is also mostly public service.

And... that was a hell of an offtopic. My apologies  :Smile:

----------


## kaimaciel

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


It's awesome, G! Good job!

----------


## Aahz

> Because I'm really not a teacher now, just an outdoors and hobbies instructor for kids, which is a summer job, honestly. I'm an actual Geography, History and Arts History teacher, for teens. But that work, here, is mostly civil service, and in order to access to a post there, I have to past 2 different tests (that in fact are 3), tests that are called maybe each two or three years, and allow you the access to an on-hold list of hundreds of people for the same post. There's also private high schools (most of them managed by the Church or other religious groups), but if you want to work there, you need to already know people in there who know you (and I don't know anybody yet), or being the perfect candidate (which I know I'm not). Tough luck, but things are like that for many.


Seems wired, where I live they have such a lack of teachers, they are already hiring that don't really have the qualification and let them basically learn them while they are allready teaching kids.

----------


## Sergard

In case somebody doesn't know but would be interested into buying some post-crisis Robin Jason stories: Soon (21st August 2018) "Batman: The Caped Crusader Vol. 1" will be released. The volume contains Batman #417-425 and #430-431 and Batman Annual #12. #417-425 are from the Robin Jason run ("A Death in the family" was #426-429). The trade neatly fits in as follow-up to "Batman: Second Chances" (BATMAN #402-403, #408-416 and BATMAN ANNUAL #11) which introduces Jason in post-crisis.

https://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nov...crusader-vol-1

Does anybody know if there are Batman trades available at the moment that cover Jason's pre-crisis run?

----------


## Zaresh

> Seems wired, where I live they have such a lack of teachers, they are already hiring that don't really have the qualification and let them basically learn them while they are allready teaching kids.


Here, it's oversaturated. There's a real unemployment problem, despite things getting better now. And teaching is a good way out for many graduates like myself who cannot access to other kind of medium profile job post. There's also the matter about how many less children are born each year, an aspect that affects how many schools and high schools are open nowadays. And for the last 10 years, the Government hardly called for open posts because our economic crisis: many teachers retired and their posts weren't filled up by someone new. That means the lists are huge for more general subjects like Spanish, English, History, Biology, etc. Some other subjects, like Maths or Chemistry and Physics, with a lot less graduates acceding to them, are less saturated. And vocational training is less saturated too. Or you can apply for posts in places like the isles (the ones that are far from the peninsula), or towns in the less populated areas; but you need to travel there in most cases for a lot of paperwork, and not many can or are interested in such a disconnection from their families (you would be starting from scratch in there: and that requires a certain mindset). I'm on the "can't" group, and also carry with myself other problems. But even I have been looking for jobs outside my place or even my country (but realistically, that's out of my reach for different reasons). I know people that ended up finding their job as teachers in Canada, for example. So despite everything I just said, looking outside is not uncommon either.

Lots of very educated people to choose from and be picky about when you have to select your employees.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> In case somebody doesn't know but would be interested into buying some post-crisis Robin Jason stories: Soon (21st August 2018) "Batman: The Caped Crusader Vol. 1" will be released. The volume contains Batman #417-425 and #430-431 and Batman Annual #12. #417-425 are from the Robin Jason run ("A Death in the family" was #426-429). The trade neatly fits in as follow-up to "Batman: Second Chances" (BATMAN #402-403, #408-416 and BATMAN ANNUAL #11) which introduces Jason in post-crisis.
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nov...crusader-vol-1
> 
> Does anybody know if there are Batman trades available at the moment that cover Jason's pre-crisis run?


Thanks for the info. I was wondering if they would bother collecting anything else from Jason's Post-crisis Robin era. I've already pre-ordered it on Amazon. 

As for your question as far as I know they haven't bothered to collect his pre-crisis stories. I've had to read those on Comixology instead because believe it or not its very hard to find ANY issues featuring Jason Todd as Robin, which is odd considering how much hate there was/is for him as Robin. It took me years to find the handful that I managed to be lucky enough to find.

@G: Loved the artwork there and you do manage to make that costume actually look good to me as well so thanks for that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Cover._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

And JayRoy shippers go wild.

----------


## Sergard

> As for your question as far as I know they haven't bothered to collect his pre-crisis stories. I've had to read those on Comixology instead because believe it or not its very hard to find ANY issues featuring Jason Todd as Robin, which is odd considering how much hate there was/is for him as Robin. It took me years to find the handful that I managed to be lucky enough to find.


That's a shame. I like pre-crisis and post-crisis Jason. Although a blonde Jason seems so strange (and I don't get why people say that he was a redhead). Pre-crisis Bruce was different too. He was more of a father figure. It's funny that pre-crisis Jason ran away too at some point and Bruce had to legally fight for custody of Jason. THAT Bruce could have won the father of the year award.

----------


## thebluefeline

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


Very beautiful, love the style!

----------


## kiwiliko

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


AAaahhhhhhh this really makes the new look grow on me. And it especially works in your style, love the shadows here!

----------


## kiwiliko

> Here, it's oversaturated. There's a real unemployment problem, despite things getting better now. And teaching is a good way out for many graduates like myself who cannot access to other kind of medium profile job post. There's also the matter about how many less children are born each year, an aspect that affects how many schools and high schools are open nowadays. And for the last 10 years, the Government hardly called for open posts because our economic crisis: many teachers retired and their posts weren't filled up by someone new. That means the lists are huge for more general subjects like Spanish, English, History, Biology, etc. Some other subjects, like Maths or Chemistry and Physics, with a lot less graduates acceding to them, are less saturated. And vocational training is less saturated too. Or you can apply for posts in places like the isles (the ones that are far from the peninsula), or towns in the less populated areas; but you need to travel there in most cases for a lot of paperwork, and not many can or are interested in such a disconnection from their families (you would be starting from scratch in there: and that requires a certain mindset). I'm on the "can't" group, and also carry with myself other problems. But even I have been looking for jobs outside my place or even my country (but realistically, that's out of my reach for different reasons). I know people that ended up finding their job as teachers in Canada, for example. So despite everything I just said, looking outside is not uncommon either.
> 
> Lots of very educated people to choose from and be picky about when you have to select your employees.


That's unfortunate to hear. I'm guessing it's not as bad in Canada but speaking from living here we do have a projected undersaturation of teachers just from how bad funding has been for public schools. Private seems to be gaining traction. Good luck with your next few tests tho!

----------


## kiwiliko

I'm sad I'm definitely not going to get penguin Jason finished in time for his Bday buuut my last summer challenge I did with some friends has opened their gates and I'm free to post this to public now  :Big Grin: 


A more fantasy interpretation of his Arkham knight costume along with Talon's armour. Happy Birthday Jay!

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm sad I'm definitely not going to get penguin Jason finished in time for his Bday buuut my last summer challenge I did with some friends has opened their gates and I'm free to post this to public now 
> 
> 
> A more fantasy interpretation of his Arkham knight costume along with Talon's armour. Happy Birthday Jay!


This. Is. Gorgeous. Pretty piece (I'm a sucker for medieval stuff as much as I am for scifi or pulp mystery and adventure). Geeez, now I want to draw something! Blame on you, artists! (Gladly, weekend is coming)

I'm guessing it's the private market in Canada where most job calls have been coming from, tbw.

----------


## G-Potion

> A more fantasy interpretation of his Arkham knight costume along with Talon's armour. Happy Birthday Jay!


This was my favourite art piece of the whole Exchange. Made me wish there was a story to accompany it because the premise is _great_.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm sad I'm definitely not going to get penguin Jason finished in time for his Bday


Fear not I got you!

This goes without saying, I blame Dark and the artist of this masterpiece.




> The new logo sucks

----------


## G-Potion

Behold, the sequel to my Subzero/Red Hood comics.

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## Zaresh

> 


Lovely <3<3

----------


## Rise

Issue #27 Variant Cover by Yasmine Putri.

----------


## Zaresh

> Issue #27 Variant Cover by Yasmine Putri.


The hotness of these covers are reaching the limits of the hotmeter.

----------


## RedBird

> Issue #27 Variant Cover by Yasmine Putri.


......She's making the crowbar alongside the outfit look more cool and appealing, I'll give her that.

----------


## RedBird

> 


Haha, there he is! 
I love him, he looks ready to fight crime.  :Big Grin: 

Kinda ironic that Jasons logo for his new design looks like a penguin, since a certain 'penguin' was also the catalyst that triggered this downfall.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm sad I'm definitely not going to get penguin Jason finished in time for his Bday buuut my last summer challenge I did with some friends has opened their gates and I'm free to post this to public now 
> 
> 
> A more fantasy interpretation of his Arkham knight costume along with Talon's armour. Happy Birthday Jay!



Oooh I saw this one in the exchange, it's beautiful, definitely my favorite of the art pieces, I really like how well you portray the atmosphere in your art. Also the lighting is wonderful  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Got this done just in time for Jason's birthday. New costume is _really_ fun to draw. There's still more btw, stay tuned.


Oooh nice shading and contrast alongside the moody bluish colour palette. Also I like the little touch of Jason stepping out of the composition, I can only hope the version of this suit we get in the book will be as well rendered and appealing as it looks in all the fan art including this one.

----------


## RedBird

> https://twitter.com/Eskimosheep
> 
> My little prince of Gotham


Damn this one is great, I'm always a sucker for kid Jay, and that _Prince of Gotham_ title is probably one of my favorite additions from Lobdell, its just such an endearing title for the lil aforementioned 'street urchin'. XD

----------


## RedBird

Wow, there really was a bunch of great Jason Birthday art, here's a few more

yen-yen-yen

----------


## RedBird

ketchup212



ayinggg




Also Soy's humor and saltiness is a sight to behold. XD



This ones on his insta

----------


## RedBird

imalextodd



saturated version





j2ksa

----------


## Zaresh

> Also Soy's humor and saltiness is a sight to behold. XD
> 
> 
> This ones on his insta


Asdfds... Cof cof.

----------


## Arsenal

> Also Soy's humor and saltiness is a sight to behold. XD
> 
> 
> 
> This ones on his insta


As far as birthday presents from Bruce go, that's not so bad

----------


## CPSparkles

Happy Birthday Jay

----------


## G-Potion

All the art!!!

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/17...-buddy-fan-art

----------


## RedBird

lol nevermind, G ninja'd me

New52 was confusing about the ages but we're back to Roy definitely being older yeah. He certainly feels like an older bro here.

----------


## Rise

> Also Soy's humor and saltiness is a sight to behold. XD
> 
> 
> 
> This ones on his insta


My body really hurts me, I don't want to laugh.




> lol nevermind, G ninja'd me
> 
> New52 was confusing about the ages but we're back to Roy definitely being older yeah. He certainly feels like an older bro here.


I remember that it was implied that Roy is older than Jason in RH/A.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Putri's Cover for #27
1534509707946.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

More Birthday art

https://twitter.com/AlexBananzi

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Ultimate_mororo

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/moon115115



https://twitter.com/4yottsu



https://twitter.com/hayamiyuuchan

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/mmhfmmfff

----------


## G-Potion

Guys, what comic is this from? Alfred has the same birthday?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Injustice. Is the memorial issue after his death at Zsasz hands.

----------


## G-Potion

> Injustice. Is the memorial issue after his death at Zsasz hands.


Cool! Thanks for the info, Dark!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Putri's Cover for #27
> Attachment 69446


The art is very nice and I think I'm starting to come around to the actual costume itself now. Not the crowbar though. I still hate it even though I understand the reasoning and the psychological implications of his choosing it as a weapon.

Also @G- Thanks for posting all that birthday art. I especially liked the one with at the top of this page with all of his "teams" giving him gifts.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Such a pleasant surprise




> In other, non-Batman related corners of the family, major changes are happening as well. Jason (who, uh, may or may not have just made a huge mistake) was just reunited with his ex-best friend slash business partner, Roy Harper, reforming the duo that hasn't really been around since the end of RED HOOD/ARSENAL. If you missed out on that run while the New 52 was winding down, I'd really recommend going back to take a look. Not only will it prep you for whatever is coming up next in RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS, it's also just a nice primer for one of the best buddy cop duos in recent memory. Just sayin'.


https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...the-bat-family

----------


## Zaresh

This is all on you  :Stick Out Tongue:  (I couldn't help it, honestly).

I decided to work in a new fanart. After an hour and a half, this is my still rather sketchy start. Background will be a street wall with a painting.

20180817_233426.jpg

(I'm just a jealous monster)

----------


## Sergard

It's always nice to see some art with Jason, Kyle and Donna. I liked their little team-up during Countdown, especially Kyle and Jason annoying each other.

I didn't know that Alfred and Jason had the same birthday, that's a surprise - and a little sad. Surely Alfred would have been very happy at his birthday if Jason could have celebrated his birthday with the whole family at the manor. Thank you, Bruce :-(

@Dark: Nice article. The writer is "just" a comic fan without further insight behind the scenes, or? The "Jason (who, uh, may or may not have just made a huge mistake)" got me a little bit. I hope there will be some clarification in the annual if Jason solely wanted revenge or if the whole assassination had some other reason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Yeah, that was a nice article. Also I wasn't even aware that Jason and Alfred shared a birthday. Somehow that's both fitting and sad at the same time.

@ Zaresh: Can't wait to see the finished drawing. I like it already.

----------


## G-Potion

> This is all on you  (I couldn't help it, honestly).
> 
> I decided to work in a new fanart. After an hour and a half, this is my still rather sketchy start. Background will be a street wall with a painting.
> 
> 20180817_233426.jpg
> 
> (I'm just a jealous monster)


Oh this looks like a reminiscence piece? I'm here trying to imagine a complete picture in my head. Let's see if it matches your final version.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh this looks like a reminiscence piece? I'm here trying to imagine a complete picture in my head. Let's see if it matches your final version.


The idea is a Jason wearing normal, street clothing and looking wary to his left, light by some street light, while at his back in our left, he has a graffiti of a Robin fighting a gang of red hooded or helmeted thugs (and Batman at one side).

I hope it will live to your expectations  :Big Grin: . I'll use markers on bristol for the first time, so I hope I don't end ruining it when I get to actually colouring it (my strenght, to be honest). I guess (or hope) I'll have it finished by next weekend. I'll post it them for you guys to see once I'm done.

----------


## Jackalope89

Remember when Jason went all Matches Malone?

----------


## dflat57

I really don't care about the costume change, but give Jason his firearms back!!!!  The tire iron is just silly.

I'm convinced these comic companies have no idea what to do with these awesome characters

(I really like this thread btw)

----------


## Rac7d*

is this thread gonna update the year every year now

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/mmhfmmfff


Donna Troy and HAL JORDAN or Kyle?  :Confused: 

I liked the final image.

----------


## G-Potion

It's Kyle. They teamed up in Countdown.

----------


## adrikito

> It's Kyle. They teamed up in Countdown.


I see both characters similar.. For this I was not sure if he was Hal or Kyle..




> Remember when Jason went all Matches Malone?


I liked Jason Malone version.

----------


## G-Potion

> is this thread gonna update the year every year now


Mods said they will last for a year only. New year new thread.

----------


## Zaresh

> Mods said they will last for a year only. New year new thread.


Are old threads deleted, or can we link former threads in the first post of new ones?

----------


## G-Potion

> Are old threads deleted, or can we link former threads in the first post of new ones?


I think they will be locked just like other appreciation threads so linking maybe possible.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Mods said they will last for a year only. New year new thread.


but this thread not new? and does that mean a new thread every year?

----------


## G-Potion

> but this thread not new? and does that mean a new thread every year?


Still the old thread (with the year added in the name) until 2019. That's what it means, I think.

----------


## Sergard

Kyle Rayner and Jason Todd don't know each other in New52/Rebirth, or?
I wouldn't be averse to some Kyle and Jason team-up in the future. And it's always a good idea to have a guy on your friends list who has space access - in case Jason does not only have to flee Gotham but the whole planet.
And I believe Kyle and Jason are roughly the same age. Although I don't know Kyle good enough to tell if he would befriend a guy like Jason (former crime lord, has killed people) or if he would look down on him.

----------


## Aahz

> Kyle Rayner and Jason Todd don't know each other in New52/Rebirth, or?
> I wouldn't be averse to some Kyle and Jason team-up in the future. And it's always a good idea to have a guy on your friends list who has space access - in case Jason does not only have to flee Gotham but the whole planet.
> And I believe Kyle and Jason are roughly the same age. Although I don't know Kyle good enough to tell if he would befriend a guy like Jason (former crime lord, has killed people) or if he would look down on him.


Actually Jason and Kyle hated each other in Countdown and Kyle was at least pre flashpoint the same age as Dick.

When it comes to Alfreds Birthday is only in Injustice August 16th, other dates that were given for his Birthday are April 8th, December 7th and Superman's Earth Day (don't what the official date for that).

----------


## Zaresh

> Kyle Rayner and Jason Todd don't know each other in New52/Rebirth, or?
> I wouldn't be averse to some Kyle and Jason team-up in the future. And it's always a good idea to have a guy on your friends list who has space access - in case Jason does not only have to flee Gotham but the whole planet.
> And I believe Kyle and Jason are roughly the same age. Although I don't know Kyle good enough to tell if he would befriend a guy like Jason (former crime lord, has killed people) or if he would look down on him.


Kyle is older, I think.

----------


## oasis1313

> Asdfds... Cof cof.


Bruce must have mistaken Jason for Dick here.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Actually Jason and Kyle hated each other in Countdown and Kyle was at least pre flashpoint the same age as Dick.
> 
> When it comes to Alfreds Birthday is only in Injustice August 16th, other dates that were given for his Birthday are April 8th, December 7th and Superman's Earth Day (don't what the official date for that).


All I can remember from Countdown was that awful "Retodd" joke from Dona, to which Kyle chuckled and answered, "Good one" like a lovesick puppy. I mean, really? Calling a guy who was previously brain-damaged retarded? And Jason was saving them. I couldn't warm up to either Kyle or Dona after that.

----------


## Sergard

> All I can remember from Countdown was that awful "Retodd" joke from Dona, to which Kyle chuckled and answered, "Good one" like a lovesick puppy. I mean, really? Calling a guy who was previously brain-damaged retarded? And Jason was saving them. I couldn't warm up to either Kyle or Dona after that.


Oh thanks. I didn't get the joke - and it's ... really not nice. Although Donna and Kyle probably didn't know that Jason was once brain-damaged. And I remember Kyle behaving like a jealous (ex?)-lover and Jason being annoyed by that. But I don't think Jason was actually hitting on Donna, or? I was a little disappointed by Jason when he left the group because he had enough. On the other hand he
- met a Batman who killed the Joker in revenge for murdering his Jason
- said Batman goes on a killing spree (as Jason's Bruce had predicted in UtRH), gets kicked out of the Justice League, everyone leaves him and he is alone in the end
- but said Batman accepts Jason the way he is and gives him the Red Robin uniform
- sadly said Batman gets killed (which maybe could have been prevented if he had had the support of other heroes/the Justice league)
- Jason kills the Joker from another universe in revenge

That's a lot to stomach. For Jason it was always his "happy ending" scenario that Bruce kills Joker - but so he had to learn that there never was a happy ending for him.
And I'm glad that Jason didn't keep the Red Robin uniform.

----------


## Aahz

> And I remember Kyle behaving like a jealous (ex?)-lover and Jason being annoyed by that. But I don't think Jason was actually hitting on Donna, or?


I for most of the stuff that happend in Count Down. But Kyle was indeed Donnas ex-lover (they were iirc together in the early 90s).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

You guys can complain all you want about Countdown, but don't forget it was the first story that gave us a glimpse of a JAosn that was willing to move past Batman, thus, being the direct precedent to N52's Jason and beyond.

----------


## RedBird

aklasuuu



Like suicide

----------


## G-Potion

Wow. That's intense.

----------


## Sergard

You know what's also intense? The preview to Mother Panic: A.D. #6.
https://screenrant.com/jason-todd-ba...-panic-gotham/
Especially the panel with all the Robins.

----------


## G-Potion

> You know what's also intense? The preview to Mother Panic: A.D. #6.
> https://screenrant.com/jason-todd-ba...-panic-gotham/
> Especially the panel with all the Robins.


Gave up after the last issue. From the look of the preview though, I still have a small hope that this Jason can still come around.

----------


## Sergard

I never got into the series. But from the preview alone this Jason reminds me a little bit of Future Tim "Savior" Drake - breaking under the pressure of being the last one left behind.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah no. Jason is the guy that can bend but will never break under the pressure.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #28 

Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.

Welcome to the Underlife, Jason Todd -- you probably won't survive! Banished from Gotham City and estranged from the Outlaws, Red Hood takes up residence in Appleton, a would-be American town that's a secret haven for the criminal operators. When RH gets his hands on a crowbar and starts handing out some bloody justice, it really stirs up the hornet's nest. And when a new Underlife member is introduced, Jason's gonna get stung by the trouble he caused.

32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Nov. 14. 

redhood28.jpg

EDIT: Oh, and Jason shooting the Penguin was pointless, Cobblepot is a major character in Batman #58 and #59

----------


## okiedokiewo

lol Glad Batman had to beat the shit out of his son over...not killing Penguin.

----------


## Rise

They seem to be really careful in avoiding revealing much about the new arc since they keep saying the same thing in every solicit since September.

----------


## Celgress

> lol Glad Batman had to beat the shit out of his son over...not killing Penguin.


LOL how true....  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

New look is getting more lean and natural. Looks real good in this cover.

----------


## kiwiliko

> 


It's so cute G I'll take 20 penguins and 1 Jason to go plz.

----------


## kiwiliko

Given there is some hidden part of me that loves the classic American horror story I'm ready and willing to ride this one out. I never thought that kind of horror was going to appear in comics, it's way often somewhere in a dark horse graphic novel but yesss this kind of expansion to a new start is definitely my thing.

----------


## G-Potion

So far all three covers of this run have blood on them. Wonder what that says about story content. But yes I'm all for horror or any new elements that enrich Jason's story potential.

----------


## JasonTodd428

I don't know. I'm actually becoming more and more disenchanted with this direction with each passing cover and solicit. I'll give it an issue but this is sounding to me like something I'm not going to enjoy at all and about 99.9% of the time when I think that I'm right.

----------


## Zaresh

> They seem to be really careful in avoiding revealing much about the new arc since they keep saying the same thing in every solicit since September.


I noticed. Definitely something interesting to come soon.

----------


## G-Potion

Like *Rise* said, they have been repeating the same information for all three solicits while revealing very little and that could very well be misleading also. Myself, I don't even have a vague idea much less an opinion about what it sounds like so I'm gonna stay optimistic because I like experimenting with new ideas.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's so cute G I'll take 20 penguins and 1 Jason to go plz.


Subzero says you have to be a Lin Kuei if you want one penguin. But you can take Jason for free; he's had enough.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Subzero says you have to be a Lin Kuei if you want one penguin. But you can take Jason for free; he's had enough.


Hah, I laughed out loud in the bus again!

----------


## Sergard

The billboard on the cover gives me "The Stepford Wives" vibes. Now I can't stop imagining Jason going undercover and renting a little house in the suburbs, baking apple pies and chitchatting with his neighbors. "Good morning, gentlemen. Lovely weather today... why don't you come in and have some pie? ... A bloody crowbar? Oh, that old thing there in the corner. I tried to open a red paint tin with it. Silly me... Have you already met my pet penguin?"

I like the cover a lot. Finally no crowbar, seeing it always rubs me the wrong way. And another variant cover by Yasmine Putri. I really dig her style. And I'm looking forward to this "Underlife" organization. I'm curious if we get all new characters or some old faces too.

I hope Jason will stay away from Gotham/Batman for a very long time. Even if it's a little sad because it's his hometown and of all bat-family members Jason seemed to care the most about the lower social classes. But I don't want him to reconcile with Bruce, especially not after being beaten unconscious for "killing" somebody whom Bruce later teams up with and who looks perfectly fine.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The billboard on the cover gives me "The Stepford Wives" vibes. Now I can't stop imagining Jason going undercover and renting a little house in the suburbs, baking apple pies and chitchatting with his neighbors. "Good morning, gentlemen. Lovely weather today... why don't you come in and have some pie? ... A bloody crowbar? Oh, that old thing there in the corner. I tried to open a red paint tin with it. Silly me... Have you already met my pet penguin?"
> 
> I like the cover a lot. Finally no crowbar, seeing it always rubs me the wrong way. And another variant cover by Yasmine Putri. I really dig her style. And I'm looking forward to this "Underlife" organization. I'm curious if we get all new characters or some old faces too.
> 
> I hope Jason will stay away from Gotham/Batman for a very long time. Even if it's a little sad because it's his hometown and of all bat-family members Jason seemed to care the most about the lower social classes. But I don't want him to reconcile with Bruce, especially not after being beaten unconscious for "killing" somebody whom Bruce later teams up with and who looks perfectly fine.


The part that has me thrown for a loop is that Jason is estranged from the Outlaws now. The question there being; why? Because the same week the issue of Artemis and Bizarro getting sucked through the door, Artemis pops up in the Wonder Woman comic, with no mention of her time as an Outlaw.

----------


## Aioros22

> The part that has me thrown for a loop is that Jason is estranged from the Outlaws now. The question there being; why? Because the same week the issue of Artemis and Bizarro getting sucked through the door, Artemis pops up in the Wonder Woman comic, with no mention of her time as an Outlaw.


Her time as an Outlaw is certainly mentioned.

----------


## Aioros22

> You know what's also intense? The preview to Mother Panic: A.D. #6.
> https://screenrant.com/jason-todd-ba...-panic-gotham/
> Especially the panel with all the Robins.


Interesting. Quick allusions to TDKR and Hit Girl. Hopefully they will bridge the trauma between Violet and this Jason so he can learn to fly again but wheter the case, he remains bar none the most blunt damaged character this side of the universe and keeps kicking back, sometimes not as elegantly as one would wish but that`s life. 

The kid keeps looking like her own little Jason on top of being Robin in his eyes (reacts like he`s looking at the mirror) Lot of spunk, no fear, potentially dangerous. One thing`s for certain, Violet handles it alot better than Bruce. 

#nailed.

----------


## Zaresh

> The part that has me thrown for a loop is that Jason is estranged from the Outlaws now. The question there being; why? Because the same week the issue of Artemis and Bizarro getting sucked through the door, Artemis pops up in the Wonder Woman comic, with no mention of her time as an Outlaw.


WW seems to take place a bit after RHATO 25. Art is "looking for a challenge", said challenge being a "him". To me, it's implied she means Jason, and she even mentions RHATO's "Bow of Rah" arc.

----------


## Aioros22

And subquently her own tribe and the meeting with WW.

----------


## RedBird

> WW seems to take place a bit after RHATO 25. Art is "looking for a challenge", said challenge being a "him". To me, it's implied she means Jason, and she even mentions RHATO's "Bow of Rah" arc.


I did find that sequence peculiar, what with her being vague about this person or 'challenge' she was looking for, the fact that the bar attendant says something along the lines of 'I already told you *he's* not here' and the fact that well, she's looking for a particular person in a dive bar filled with what I assume are generic villains considering the costumes, who else does she know that visits such places. I thought I was reading too much into it by assuming she was referring to Jason, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.

----------


## Zaresh

> I did find that sequence peculiar, what with her being vague about this person or 'challenge' she was looking for, the fact that the bar attendant says something along the lines of 'I already told you *he's* not here' and the fact that well, she's looking for a particular person in a dive bar filled with what I assume are generic villains considering the costumes, who else does she know that visits such places. I thought I was reading too much into it by assuming she was referring to Jason, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so.


Yeah, it's definitely the kind of place Jason is usually showed hanging out in many comics, for one reason or another. And you can argue that he's definitely a challenging person (for no-nonsense people like Artemis especially; and broadly, because all the issues he usually carries with himself, basically), even if he's really a treasure as a friend and as an ally.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah, it's definitely the kind of place Jason is usually showed hanging out in many comics, for one reason or another. And you can argue that he's definitely a challenging person (for no-nonsense people like Artemis especially; and broadly, because all the issues he usually carries with himself, basically), even if he's really a treasure as a friend and as an ally.


Hmm, I wish I had more faith and assurance that comics followed any sort of _solid_ continuity between books. Otherwise this small scene could have even been a nod towards rhato and the current state Jason is in. EG; Artemis finds herself having to resort to searching random hotspots like these because Red Hood has officially 'gone off the grid' and has become unreachable as such.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hmm, I wish I had more faith and assurance that comics followed any sort of _solid_ continuity between books. Otherwise this small scene could have even been a nod towards rhato and the current state Jason is in. EG; Artemis finds herself having to resort to searching random hotspots like these because Red Hood has officially 'gone off the grid' and has become unreachable as such.


Let's hope that this, if not a well planed thing between writers, is another rare coincidence in which everything ends up kind of making sense by sheer luck. It has already worked before for Jay! (Wonder of wonders, it did sometimes, I think)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Like *Rise* said, they have been repeating the same information for all three solicits while revealing very little and that could very well be misleading also. Myself, I don't even have a vague idea much less an opinion about what it sounds like so I'm gonna stay optimistic because I like experimenting with new ideas.


It more the tone of the solicits and covers that are making me weary. I like it when they experiment with new ideas and directions as well because interesting stories oftentimes happen as a result however this particular violent direction is a bit too close to his portrayal during the pre-Flashpoint era to make me entirely comfortable with it. It makes me feel like they are pigeonholing Jason again into some one dimensional character whose only quality is his violence and proclivity for killing. Jason's so much more than that so I really hope what my gut instinct is telling me is way off base and that Lobdell continues with the nuanced portrayal we've been getting thus far. I'd hate to lose that in the chaos of a more gritty direction. That being said those covers and solicits are not making it easy to remain optimistic about things. The ONLY reason I have any at all is because Lobdell is still on the book. He might be able to make this direction work for me but if it was anyone else I would be gone after the Annual. That's how much I distrust this direction change and I still wonder if this isn't something cooked up by editorial on some level whatever Lobdell might say on the subject. It does seem like a lot of books are going in new directions at the moment so the fact that RHATO is as well can't be coincidence and it also seems like a lot of them are going darker in tone as well. Just saying.

Anyway like I said I'll give it an issue to see if this new direction appeals to me and if it doesn't I'll just wait it out. No big deal really.

----------


## G-Potion

> The billboard on the cover gives me "The Stepford Wives" vibes. Now I can't stop imagining Jason going undercover and renting a little house in the suburbs, baking apple pies and chitchatting with his neighbors. "Good morning, gentlemen. Lovely weather today... why don't you come in and have some pie? ... A bloody crowbar? Oh, that old thing there in the corner. I tried to open a red paint tin with it. Silly me... Have you already met my pet penguin?"


This scenario is very popular with fanfic writers. And I love it personally. "Have you already met my pet penguin?" Ha!  :Cool:

----------


## Jackalope89

> Her time as an Outlaw is certainly mentioned.


Nope. Just read it over again. She brings out the Bow of Rah, but only Akila is mentioned. And RHatO is only mentioned in the author's note on where to look it up.



> WW seems to take place a bit after RHATO 25. Art is "looking for a challenge", said challenge being a "him". To me, it's implied she means Jason, and she even mentions RHATO's "Bow of Rah" arc.


Maybe. But it could also mean Bizarro. Its rather vague on who "him" the bartender is referring to.

----------


## G-Potion

Between the two, Jason is a lot more likely to hang around bars. And that could also be a callback to issue #8 where he did with Artemis.

----------


## Rise

> Nope. Just read it over again. She brings out the Bow of Rah, but only Akila is mentioned. And RHatO is only mentioned in the author's note on where to look it up.
> 
> Maybe. But it could also mean Bizarro. Its rather vague on who "him" the bartender is referring to.


I don't know who she meant by "him" to be honest, but the book referring the second arc and mentioning RHATO is pretty much an acknowledgement of her time as Outlaw. So, they weren't actually ignoring it.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/qingmeijun



https://twitter.com/_SoundofSpeed_

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/claytonhenryart/

----------


## kaimaciel

So after Tom King posted this picture I commented on it:

Sem Título.jpg

Since Mikél Janin liked my post, I'm guessing I was right. Penguin only lost his eye. Thanks, Bruce, you beat your son for nothing. Also, does Penguin now know who Batman is? Or will that plotline be dropped?

----------


## RedBird

> So after Tom King posted this picture I commented on it:
> 
> Sem Título.jpg
> 
> Since Mikél Janin liked my post, I'm guessing I was right. Penguin only lost his eye. Thanks, Bruce, you beat your son for nothing. Also, does Penguin now know who Batman is? Or will that plotline be dropped?


If this is true then yay, my hope that there would at least be some sort of damage on penguin has come through, since lets face it we knew he wouldnt be dead. 


That being said, _sigh_ all this happening so soon and with little hope in my mind that King or any other writer will address what happened in rhato and give some semblance of satisfying closure on Bruces mentality during and after the events of issue 25, make me seriously SERIOUSLY wish that Jason doesn't come back. Not without some kinda repentance from Bruce this time.

For as justified as it seemed for him to have to stop and apprehend Jason, especially in the face of having his reputation tarnished by Jasons actions, even if he had no other choice but to place him behind bars for the sake of keeping up appearances with Gotham, the brutality he brought was too much, he still went too far imo. And for what? A slightly more roughed up villain. I mean this fight was clearly a reversal of their last major tussle in UTRH, except with the tables turned, in which now Jason was faced with a hurt and betrayed Bruce instead of visa versa. This all being an expression of Bruces hurt and anger of Jasons betrayal of their agreement is understandable in and of itself, but just like in UTRH it doesn't justify the cruelty of his actions, especially in Bruces case, the words he spoke, which I think cut deeper than anything.

It was annoying enough when it happened the first time and the events of Ethiopia were swept under the rug like it wasn't a complete betrayal of emotions and a horrifying way to exploit someones trust in you. Granted Lobdell didn't orchestrate that or the follow up to it, so maybe he has something else planned for HIS story, a light at the end of this tunnel, I just hope it was worth the pain he caused cause with all the reveals of Penguin being a-okay and the realization that Bruce was so blinded by rage and committed to beating his son he ignored the danger in the sky of Gotham, etc.. boy oh boy does this issue (25#) grow more ugly by the day.

----------


## thebluefeline

> So after Tom King posted this picture I commented on it:
> 
> Sem Título.jpg
> 
> Since Mikél Janin liked my post, I'm guessing I was right. Penguin only lost his eye. Thanks, Bruce, you beat your son for nothing. Also, does Penguin now know who Batman is? Or will that plotline be dropped?


Think Penguin is allying himself with Batman judging by the solicits for November. How ironic really, shooting Penguin in the eye actually is gonna help him reform more than beating him up constantly and sending him to prison xd I'm actually interested in King's run now again if he follows on this with a good resolution.

----------


## Rise

The reputation excuse doesn't fly with me. Jason already shot someone live on tv in the first issue and hasn't been shown to work with Batman ever since Rebirth started. So, what reputation Batman was worried about when as far as public know they are enemies?

----------


## G-Potion

> The reputation excuse doesn't fly with me. Jason already shot someone live on tv in the first issue and hasn't been shown to work with Batman ever since Rebirth started. So, what reputation Batman was worried about when as far as public know they are enemies?


Yeah I have a problem with this more than anything else tbh. I hope Lobdell had a reason putting that line in because so far I don't see it make any sense or contribute to anything.

----------


## Sergard

> https://www.instagram.com/claytonhenryart/


"You might think I'd be gunning for revenge. Truth is, right this moment..." - Nice cut-off. I wonder who Jason is aiming at. I can't read the first two text boxes.
What's wrong with Jason's body? It looks... distorted.

----------


## G-Potion

I seriously hope it's because of the angle the photo was taken at.

----------


## RedBird

> The reputation excuse doesn't fly with me. Jason already shot someone live on tv in the first issue and hasn't been shown to work with Batman ever since Rebirth started. So, what reputation Batman was worried about when as far as public know they are enemies?


Yeah don't get me wrong, I agree, it's pretty flimsy, even in the context of rhato. Just goes to show how hard it is to even justify Bruces reaction in that issue.
I wonder what would have happened to Jason if Roy hadn't stepped in. Was the implication that he was dragging Jasons unconscious body to the cops? To Arkham?

----------


## RedBird

> I seriously hope it's because of the angle the photo was taken at.


Haha looks like a fridge with a head on top XD

I think its the angle.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://www.instagram.com/claytonhenryart/


Soon.
I like the colouring, btw. Not a fan of the style or linework, too clean for me. But it's good too, in any case.

----------


## Zaresh

> "You might think I'd be gunning for revenge. Truth is, right this moment..." - Nice cut-off. I wonder who Jason is aiming at. I can't read the first two text boxes.
> What's wrong with Jason's body? It looks... distorted.


It's the page, that is curved, and the angle.

----------


## Rise

Just read MP, nice ending and Jason was redeemed.

----------


## RedBird

> Just read MP, nice ending and Jason was redeemed.


Thanks for the heads up Rise. Well dang, I wasn't expecting any sort of 'positive' turnaround, not after my mentioned annoyances with the last issue (which I still maintain), but alas at least that conclusion was kinda nice.

That ending for Violet was pretty tragic though, bittersweet.

----------


## G-Potion

> Just read MP, nice ending and Jason was redeemed.


Nice! I'm back on board.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah no. A sappy, unearned happy ending that doesn't tackle any of the reasons that could've changed Jason like that, this is just more shallow fluff that doesn't make up for the horrible derailing of Jason's character. And again something that it proves they could've used anyone in Jason's place and the story would've been the same.

----------


## Rise

And to the surprise to no one, DT is unhappy as usual. You already doomed the book the moment we find out Jason is going to show up so why bother again? I don't think I will understand people who read the things thay don't like, but you are free to waste your money.

----------


## G-Potion

It's been a while since I read MP so am not gonna nitpick. Jason redeemed, got a hug and a family in the end. I'm happy.

----------


## Aahz

I felt his addition to MP was a kind of unnecessary. He didn't really added much to the main plot, and the conclusion of this story arc was also kind of under whelming.
Concidering that this was only a 6 issue mini and that based on the sales any continuation seems very unlikely (last issue had only 5,635 copies ordered) I think they could have done something better with those pages.

----------


## Rise

> Following Sook’s depiction of the death of Superman on the cover of issue one, Sook’s subsequent *HEROES IN CRISIS variants will focus on* Batman's back being broken by Bane for issue two, Wonder Woman killing Maxwell Lord for issue three, Aquaman losing his hand for issue four, *Jason Todd's death for issue five* and Hal Jordan killing Kilowog for issue six. Issue seven will feature a special yet-to-be-announced Harley Quinn moment to round out the series. All of Sook’s variants in this series will receive a spot varnish treatment to give a photo-finish shine to each case file snapshot.


Some small info regarding Jason. Whether it means Jason is going to show up or not in HIC, it's too early to tell.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If you were curious, Dexter is drawing the upcoming Batman and the Outsiders comic. 

It really does seem like they want to kill the Outlaws.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If you were curious, Dexter is drawing the upcoming Batman and the Outsiders comic. 
> 
> It really does seem like they want to kill the Outlaws.


Honestly I don't see what the one has to do with the other. I love Soy's work and I'm happy to see him on another book that I'm planning on reading so that's a win in my book and Woods is a good artist even if I don't personally care for his work. I think his somewhat gritty and realistic style will very much suit the nature of the book's current direction. Also this direction is an attempt to see if a solo Red Hood book would do well and frankly Jason getting an actual solo would be a step up in my opinion. Now having said that I wouldn't mind in the least if DC decided to have both the Outlaws and a Red Hood solo. That would be the best of both worlds to me but if not I will be more than happy to take a solo.

----------


## Zaresh

It wouldn't hurt if he shows up in brief cameos in the Outsiders either. Not the first time, and actually fitting, if they use him as an outside, not totally afiliated resource for the group. I'm happy for Dexter.

The bit about EiC is... interesting, but I don't know what that would really mean. Maybe it's just the thousand time they use that story not for Jason's drama, but for Bruce. I don't hold high hopes.

And I don't know if publishing two books for Jason at the same time is really a good thing. As mucha as we're having more and more of him in other books recently, because there is interest towards him and DC seems to finally have boticed, we're loosing like 500 readers each month or two witbh RHATO; which is not much, but reaching barely 19,000 copies is not a strong number and two books are going to end up watering them because readers are going to divide their monetary efforts. Not enough readers to sustain two books at the same time long enough to attract new ones is what I mean, unless it's a mini or a 12 issues book.

----------


## Rise

> The bit about EiC is... interesting, but I don't know what that would really mean. Maybe it's just the thousand time they use that story not for Jason's drama, but for Bruce. I don't hold high hopes.


Maybe, but the broken spine is already referred as the trauma for Batman. 

It could be just the defining moments in DC history or maybe Jason would appear in the event. Either way, it still interesting.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And I don't know if publishing two books for Jason at the same time is really a good thing. As mucha as we're having more and more of him in other books recently, because there is interest towards him and DC seems to finally have boticed, we're loosing like 500 readers each month or two witbh RHATO; which is not much, but reaching barely 19,000 copies is not a strong number and two books are going to end up watering them because readers are going to divide their monetary efforts. Not enough readers to sustain two books at the same time long enough to attract new ones is what I mean, unless it's a mini or a 12 issues book.


Oh, I wasn't thinking that they would only that I would love it if they did so. More Jason Todd is always a plus in my book.  :Embarrassment: 

As for whether DC has noticed Jason in their mainline universe I've believe that when I actually see other writers handling him in a manner that is consistent with his current characterization and not before. Badly handled cameos don't do the character any favors in my opinion and most of the in universe cameos are certainly not all that great. Better that he not have them at all if they are going to be bungled by writers who don't take the time to do their research. (And just to be clear I'm not talking about Elseworld stories like Mother Panic or Gotham City Garage or the like. Those are a separate thing wherein characters are literally someone different in most cases anyway so I give those writers more leeway with characterizations.)

----------


## Aahz

> The bit about EiC is... interesting, but I don't know what that would really mean. Maybe it's just the thousand time they use that story not for Jason's drama, but for Bruce.


It is a variant cover, it doesn't have to mean anything.
But it is wired that he is doing two batman variants and non for the Flash.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh, I wasn't thinking that they would only that I would love it if they did so. More Jason Todd is always a plus in my book. 
> 
> As for whether DC has noticed Jason in their mainline universe I've believe that when I actually see other writers handling him in a manner that is consistent with his current characterization and not before. Badly handled cameos don't do the character any favors in my opinion and most of the in universe cameos are certainly not all that great. Better that he not have them at all if they are going to be bungled by writers who don't take the time to do their research. (And just to be clear I'm not talking about Elseworld stories like Mother Panic or Gotham City Garage or the like. Those are a separate thing wherein characters are literally someone different in most cases anyway so I give those writers more leeway with characterizations.)


Well, you have a point and I kind of agree, to be honest. But still, it's significative. It's a way of acknowledging the by this point noticeable and constant interest (across media and a wide range of audiences, even if still small in numbers. Commercially speaking, I think it has potential for then to try suggesting him for appear in more books).

(What the heck, my father is watching a baroque opera in the TV. This is too relaxing and I don't want to go sleep just yet. Edit: oh, it was the radio actually. That makes more sense. /off topic off)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

39942084_288121531974044_9183775599918303972_n.jpg



> jensenackles#JasonTodd meet #DeanWinchester 
> Well this is awkward.
> #batmanundertheredhood #supernatural


https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmy9T4Wg...d=vupbjlvn0ct3

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well, you have a point and I kind of agree, to be honest. But still, it's significative. It's a way of acknowledging the by this point noticeable and constant interest (across media and a wide range of audiences, even if still small in numbers. Commercially speaking, I think it has potential for then to try suggesting him for appear in more books).


Oh, I can see that too its just I wish those in-universe appearances where handled better is all. I think it would generate even more interest in the character on the part of readers and writers if those appearances had been handled with a bit more nuance to be honest and it might also draw some new fans to his book. (At the very least it couldn't hurt and additionally we would actually get some decent appearances out of it.)




> (What the heck, my father is watching a baroque opera in the TV. This is too relaxing and I don't want to go sleep just yet. Edit: oh, it was the radio actually. That makes more sense. /off topic off)


(Yeah, that would be too relaxing when you want to stay awake.)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> 39942084_288121531974044_9183775599918303972_n.jpg
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmy9T4Wg...d=vupbjlvn0ct3


So cool. Thanks for posting that Dark.

----------


## G-Potion

> 39942084_288121531974044_9183775599918303972_n.jpg
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmy9T4Wg...d=vupbjlvn0ct3


What the heck this is so cool haha. I wonder if it has anything to do with a Supernatural episode.

----------


## G-Potion

> And I don't know if publishing two books for Jason at the same time is really a good thing. As mucha as we're having more and more of him in other books recently, because there is interest towards him and DC seems to finally have boticed, we're loosing like 500 readers each month or two witbh RHATO; which is not much, but reaching barely 19,000 copies is not a strong number and two books are going to end up watering them because readers are going to divide their monetary efforts. Not enough readers to sustain two books at the same time long enough to attract new ones is what I mean, unless it's a mini or a 12 issues book.


I would like it to happen, but only if DC spends efforts into promoting both books. It's baffling they took this long to start noticing, seeing as Jason's popularity, even among well known characters, is non-disputable as seen in Injustice 2, being the most demanded character as well as topping the Hiya Toys polls by a landslide. RHATO number is respectable considering that it has been left to fight its own battle since Red Hood/Arsenal days. Also, I think the book does pretty well in trades?

----------


## Zaresh

> I would like it to happen, but only if DC spends efforts into promoting both books. It's baffling they took this long to start noticing, seeing as Jason's popularity, even among well known characters, is non-disputable as seen in Injustice 2, being the most demanded character as well as topping the Hiya Toys polls by a landslide. RHATO number is respectable considering that it has been left to fight its own battle since Red Hood/Arsenal days. Also, I think the book does pretty well in trades?


For a book of DC that is main line and ongoing? Yes. The first volume is solding a few hundreds each month (pointing at new readers that start collecing the book, that is something very good I think), and so do the other volumes. But it's selling weaker that, say Batman, and way less than books from publishers like Image... asfar as I can tell. It's hard to say, not a lot of info to work with  and I'm not even american, so I cannot tell how well it sells in bookstores and LCS and the like.

----------


## Fergus

> For a book of DC that is main line and ongoing? Yes. The first volume is solding a few hundreds each month (pointing at new readers that start collecing the book, that is something very good I think), and so do the other volumes. But it's selling weaker that, say Batman, and way less than books from publishers like Image... asfar as I can tell. It's hard to say, not a lot of info to work with  and I'm not even american, so I cannot tell how well it sells in bookstores and LCS and the like.


Well thus website http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html shows you how the title sells in comparison to other DC or Batfamily member books. Other figures are not so easy to view to the public but I believe DC who has the full info pushes characters depending on how profitable they are. Look at Harley she started making bank so now they shill her like Batman. DC is a business that will shamelessly exploit an avenue that yields.

Anyone can vote in polls DC follows money. Jason won the Injustice toy poll but DC put out Harley and Batman 1st [character that are proven to be juggernut when it comes to sales]. Maybe Red Hood has a lot of fans who like to vote but don't spend money. I mean that seems to case. He is very popular. Appears to be based on online chatter but RHATO doesn't reflect that. Those Batman and Harley fans that bought so many toys that the line decided to carry on with the next wave they did not bother to vote but they still  showed up in droves to buy the finished product.

We don't have all the info but I believe DC won't ignore money.

----------


## Armor of God

A lot of his popularity is directly owed to UTRH animated film. The downside is that its not a specific hardcore segment. A lot of them were adults who unlike kids are nowhere near as invested in toys and merch. So yeah they'd like to play him in a video game or see him on film but I think thats the extent of their loyalty.

----------


## Rise

I think he has fans who care to buy his merch considering how fast his Red Hood funko sold out.

Also, what are you talking about, Fergus? They released Batman and Harely before the game come out (which they have been announced before Red Hood was confirmed for I2) and they had nothing to do with the poll. Hiya toys (who done the poll) already show off their first line collection which included Red Hood, Batman and Superman.




> 39942084_288121531974044_9183775599918303972_n.jpg
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bmy9T4Wg...d=vupbjlvn0ct3


Nice pic. I heard that Jensen always mention in cons that Jason is the comic character who he would love to play in live action and seem to really like him.

----------


## Rise

> For a book of DC that is main line and ongoing? Yes. The first volume is solding a few hundreds each month (pointing at new readers that start collecing the book, that is something very good I think), and so do the other volumes. But *it's selling weaker that, say Batman*, and way less than books from publishers like Image... asfar as I can tell. It's hard to say, not a lot of info to work with  and I'm not even american, so I cannot tell how well it sells in bookstores and LCS and the like.


Every book in the industry sell weaker than Batman.

Him carrying a book for almost 8 years now is impressive for today's industry and especially for a character who has been dead for years (just look at how Bucky is struggling to have one). Also, I never liked the idea of character starring in multiple ongoing books and I would love more for Jason to have one shot stories in alternative universes.

----------


## Fergus

> I think he has fans who care to buy his merch considering how fast his Red Hood funko sold out.
> 
> Also, what are you talking about, Fergus? They released Batman and Harely before the game come out (which they have been announced before Red Hood was confirmed for I2) and they had nothing to do with the poll. Hiya toys (who done the poll) already show off their first line collection which included Red Hood, Batman and Superman.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice pic. I heard that Jensen always mention in cons that Jason is the comic character who he would love to play in live action and seem to really like him.


I'm saying Popularity in polls like that don't indicate which characters are the most financially viable. Company's use more reliable info to decide investment.

However If Jason figures are selling out then I'm sure we can look forward to DC giving us more Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone can vote in polls DC follows money. Jason won the Injustice toy poll but DC put out Harley and Batman 1st [character that are proven to be juggernut when it comes to sales]. *Maybe Red Hood has a lot of fans who like to vote but don't spend money*. I mean that seems to case. He is very popular. Appears to be based on online chatter but RHATO doesn't reflect that. Those Batman and Harley fans that bought so many toys that the line decided to carry on with the next wave they did not bother to vote but they still  showed up in droves to buy the finished product.


I love how when it comes to Jason, there are some seriously funny assumptions. You said it like Red Hood fans are another different species. Anyway, Hiya Toys first wave:



And yes, Batman and Superman were always supposed to be included in this wave regardless of their poll results because the game is about them first and foremost. And Red Hood fans apparently have money because according to twitter, many shops sold out Red Hood funkos in about 30 minutes or so.

----------


## Aahz

> A lot of his popularity is directly owed to UTRH animated film. The downside is that its not a specific hardcore segment. A lot of them were adults who unlike kids are nowhere near as invested in toys and merch. So yeah they'd like to play him in a video game or see him on film but I think thats the extent of their loyalty.


I think a big prolem is, that they never really put efford into pushing him in the comics.
Most of his appearences in bigger Batman stories are not really written in a way that would make readers want to read more about him (it is quite often more the oposite), even in the Injustice Comics he was pretty badly handled. He had a pretty Badass first appaerence, but after that he was completly sidelined and (like so often) mostly used as a puniching bag and written in a very unappealing way.
They never really revealed is back story in this universe, Damian just knowing his identity was a pretty lame way of reavealing his identity and after their first fight we never got anyinteraction between him and Batman.

----------


## Aahz

> Nice pic. I heard that Jensen always mention in cons that Jason is the comic character who he would love to play in live action and seem to really like him.


If he would be still the age he was Back when he was in Dark Angle, he would be a great choise. But that was more 15 years ago.

----------


## G-Potion

> A lot of his popularity is directly owed to UTRH animated film. The downside is that its not a specific hardcore segment. A lot of them were adults who unlike kids are nowhere near as invested in toys and merch. So yeah they'd like to play him in a video game or see him on film but I think thats the extent of their loyalty.


I don't follow. There's a good demand for Red Hood merchandise as seen in polls and apparently they sell well if Red Hood funko is anything to go by.

----------


## Zaresh

> Well thus website http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html shows you how the title sells in comparison to other DC or Batfamily member books. Other figures are not so easy to view to the public but I believe DC who has the full info pushes characters depending on how profitable they are. Look at Harley she started making bank so now they shill her like Batman. DC is a business that will shamelessly exploit an avenue that yields.
> 
> Anyone can vote in polls DC follows money. Jason won the Injustice toy poll but DC put out Harley and Batman 1st [character that are proven to be juggernut when it comes to sales]. Maybe Red Hood has a lot of fans who like to vote but don't spend money. I mean that seems to case. He is very popular. Appears to be based on online chatter but RHATO doesn't reflect that. Those Batman and Harley fans that bought so many toys that the line decided to carry on with the next wave they did not bother to vote but they still  showed up in droves to buy the finished product.
> 
> We don't have all the info but I believe DC won't ignore money.


The problem with Comichron is that, as far as I know, they only have the data from Diamond, and that means that they only collect data from LCS, not bookstores or internet retail stores. Which is, as far as I know, where most trade sales come from. So the info is not entirely indicative, more like very partial.

----------


## Zaresh

> Every book in the industry sell weaker than Batman.


Yep, I know, But still, not even the ongoing of Batman is massive saleswise when we're speaking about trades (again, I think). Unless you go to must-haves like The Killing Joke or TDKR.




> Him carrying a book for almost 8 years now is impressive for today's industry and especially for a character who has been dead for years (just look at how Bucky is struggling to have one).


Yep, I agree. Bucky is precisely a very interesting example as a comparison, funny enough. I honestly think that RHATO has been very lucky and it's doing relatively well for a "new" team book with C and/or D listers. Small fanbases, but still steadily doing around the 20,000 mark. So in general terms, it's not doing well, but in perspective, it's doing quite marvelously. And, again, it is somehow popular across media and you cannot say it's a seasonal thing at this point either. So we're not going to lose him like what happened with some 90's populars like Lobo or Cable for a while (or so I hope. I think his case has a lot in common with Deathstroke's).




> Also, I never liked the idea of character starring in multiple ongoing books and I would love more for Jason to have one shot stories in alternative universes.


Limited series. Well planned, nice art, rounded writing without loose ends and right pacing, easy to buy. I think it's the perfect format for less known or characters with less followers, for when you want to keep the interest towards them alive. And, if it works well, you can work a new one afterwards. I guess they don't sell the same, but then look at Mister Miracle.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Nice pic. I heard that Jensen always mention in cons that Jason is the comic character who he would love to play in live action and seem to really like him.


I'd really love it if Jensen was cast as Jason in a live action show and a show is something I definitely want to see on the DC streaming service at some point. I think he's perfect for the role myself and I think a show would do pretty well ratings-wise.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I'd really love it if Jensen was cast as Jason in a live action show and a show is something I definitely want to see on the DC streaming service at some point. I think he's perfect for the role myself and I think a show would do pretty well ratings-wise.


I'm not very keen on the idea of him playing Jason in live action, but if he voiced the character again on Young Justice I would be over the moon.

----------


## Fergus

> The problem with Comichron is that, as far as I know, they only have the data from Diamond, and that means that they only collect data from LCS, not bookstores or internet retail stores. Which is, as far as I know, where most trade sales come from. So the info is not entirely indicative, more like very partial.


I would say it also reflects sales in bookstores and online. You can also view the digital sale charts [RHATO isn't hot there either] Though that doesn't give us the amount sold just which are the top selling.

I believe you can get an idea of how well an ip or character is doing by how much the company is willing to invest or tie valuable resources to it.

----------


## Rise

The reports from Diamond only cover comic stores which its numbers get worse because of stotres closing every year.

And Rhato is among top 15 or 20 in digital which is pretty good actually. Last week sales had all RHATO vols (n52 and rebirth) in top selling in digital.

Besides, why you care so much about this anyway? I noticed that you always have to say something whenever one of us discuss Red Hood's popularity and even called us a "niche fandom" once.

----------


## G-Potion

> I believe you can get an idea of how well an ip or character is doing by how much the company is willing to invest or tie valuable resources to it.


If a book is low selling partly because DC hasn't given it any marketing efforts, then it's not fair to compare it to other books that do get them. Naturally the latter will do better just because of those privileges. It's not indicative of a character value/potential, which DC can fail to recognize (unlike companies like Rocksteady and NetherRealm).

----------


## JasonTodd428

> If a book is low selling partly because DC hasn't given it any marketing efforts, then it's not fair to compare it to other books that do get them. Naturally the latter will do better just because of those privileges. It's not indicative of a character value/potential, which DC can fail to recognize (unlike companies like Rocksteady and NetherRealm).


I agree. And the thing is a lot of those other books that get the privilege of having a crap ton of marketing don't even really need that marketing in the first place. I wish DC would stop wasting money on large marketing campaigns for books like JL or Batman and instead spend that money on promoting their lower tier books. Those are the ones that really need the focus and attention not Batman or JL or even Green Lantern. People are going to buy the big tier books anyway so they don't need the help.

----------


## Aahz

But most of DCs other books seem to loose readers at a similar rate, if you just look at the long running DC books, the books directly above and below RHatO have been for the mostly the same since the beginning of rebirth.

----------


## RedBird

askhungryeren

Bruce makes an error





_robins got this_

Good thing Jason is never afraid to tell Bruce he's wrong haha

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Shoucolate

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/epdejzn

----------


## G-Potion

> askhungryeren
> 
> Bruce makes an error
> 
> _robin’s got this_
> 
> Good thing Jason is never afraid to tell Bruce he's wrong haha


That is so precious.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Aaa I've missed Inky's comics so much.

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com

----------


## Jackalope89

> Aaa I've missed Inky's comics so much.
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com


Ah, poor Jason. Artemis just smashed his pride. And helmet. Both physically and metaphorically.

----------


## Knight27

> Aaa I've missed Inky's comics so much.
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com


Oh gosh please no more drawing Jason's helmet with a mouth and nose.Did anyone actually like that?

----------


## G-Potion

Eh I like it under Rocafort's style.

----------


## Zaresh

> Aaa I've missed Inky's comics so much.
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com


Hahaha... Ah, that was fun.

----------


## Aahz

His Helmets really shatter way to easily.

----------


## Rise

They shatter easily because they want show off Jason's face and expressions.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah that's why I'm excited for the mask and domino.

----------


## Aahz

> They shatter easily because they want show off Jason's face and expressions.


It makes still not much sense to wear a helmet if it is destroyed that easily.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> His Helmets really shatter way to easily.


Seems to be up to the artists' whims. The helmet never broke with Rocafort, Medri or Jiménez.

----------


## RedBird

> Seems to be up to the artists' whims. The helmet never broke with Rocafort, Medri or Jiménez.


Granted it didn't happen often, but the helmet still broke with Rocafort too.



Hell it was even on the front cover for issue 6

----------


## RedBird

Lookin at these covers just made me wonder whether or not the rhato title card will change. Maybe nothing drastically so, since its still called rhato despite the distinct lack of outlaws up ahead. But since we haven't seen any of the covers from 26 and onwards with title and text yet, do you think they'll make any changes to perhaps the bat logo in Jasons name? Or perhaps just add line a really obvious line on the outlaws word, crossing it out. :P

----------


## Rise

The broken helmet thing is something Lobdell wanted, not something up to the artists' "whims".

Woods also said when he talked about the new costume that Lobdell is the one who wanted the helmet gone because he want Jason's expressions to be visable.

----------


## Aioros22

> The reports from Diamond only cover comic stores which its numbers get worse because of stotres closing every year.
> 
> And Rhato is among top 15 or 20 in digital which is pretty good actually. Last week sales had all RHATO vols (n52 and rebirth) in top selling in digital.
> 
> Besides, why you care so much about this anyway? I noticed that you always have to say something whenever one of us discuss Red Hood's popularity and even called us a "niche fandom" once.


Niche fandom sounds real threatning.

----------


## Rise

Thank you for your input, Aioros22. Though, I'm not sure exactly why you felt it's necessary to bring a post from two days ago that has nothing to do with anything currently nor you added anything to the discussion.

----------


## Zaresh

It's also why in the MCU movies we saw that flashy facial shoot for the insides of Iron Man's helmet. I mean, sure, you are paying RDJr, but you also do it because you want the audience to actually see his face emoting and connecting with him.

By the way; if anyone is in the mood of reading a surprisingly very interesting  fluffy-adventure-mystery story with JayTim as the main ship (and DickFire as the support ship), settled in a fantasy AU, chibi_nighthowl just finished what's turned to be the first of a trilogy that started as a just-for-fun-and-fun story. It's not perfect (in fact, it starts very slow and without much of a real plotted direction, but then it catch up into the mystery route after chapter 3 or 4 and almost doesn't stop until the end. Also, as expected from the author, has lots of sex, mostly at the start; so if you don't like that, skip this read entirely, because it's an actual plot point), but it got me hooked and it has some nice twists to the different takes on the characters. I think it's good enought that I can recommend for a fun read, if you can mature rated stuff: The Adventures of Sir Timothy Drake (title will change soon).

I think I also recomended Ghost Story, by InsaneTrollLogic, right? It finished a while back, but it was really good, and knowing that some of you enjoy horror stories, I also recommend that one if I didn't do so before. Really good stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> Thank you for your input, Aioros22. Though, I'm not sure exactly why you felt it's necessary to bring a post from two days ago that has nothing to do with anything currently nor you added anything to the discussion.


Eh two days is not that long. And I think it's funny.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> The broken helmet thing is something Lobdell wanted, not something up to the artists' "whims".
> 
> Woods also said when he talked about the new costume that Lobdell is the one who wanted the helmet gone because he want Jason's expressions to be visable.


I still think that this hood/domino/faceplate combo will make Jason's expressions difficult to see but apparently I'm the only one that thinks that. In order to see anything at all Jason will have to remove his hood and the faceplate first. I guess what we're mainly going to get is the domino doing strange movements to show his anger or other emotions. I can't imagine that he's going to go around without the faceplate so the mouth is probably out at least for a lot of the time anyway.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's also why in the MCU movies we saw that flashy facial shoot for the insides of Iron Man's helmet. I mean, sure, you are paying RDJr, but you also do it because you want the audience to actually see his face emoting and connecting with him.
> 
> By the way; if anyone is in the mood of reading a surprisingly very interesting  fluffy-adventure-mystery story with JayTim as the main ship (and DickFire as the support ship), settled in a fantasy AU, chibi_nighthowl just finished what's turned to be the first of a trilogy that started as a just-for-fun-and-fun story. It's not perfect (in fact, it starts very slow and without much of a real plotted direction, but then it catch up into the mystery route after chapter 3 or 4 and almost doesn't stop until the end. Also, as expected from the author, has lots of sex, mostly at the start; so if you don't like that, skip this read entirely, because it's an actual plot point), but it got me hooked and it has some nice twists to the different takes on the characters. I think it's good enought that I can recommend for a fun read, if you can mature rated stuff: The Adventures of Sir Timothy Drake (title will change soon).
> 
> I think I also recomended Ghost Story, by InsaneTrollLogic, right? It finished a while back, but it was really good, and knowing that some of you enjoy horror stories, I also recommend that one if I didn't do so before. Really good stuff.


I avoid JayTim fics most of the time but I do trust your recommendation uhhhhh *conflicted* 

Ghost Story is pretty good however. Strongly seconded.

----------


## Rise

> I still think that this hood/domino/faceplate combo will make Jason's expressions difficult to see *but apparently I'm the only one that thinks that*. In order to see anything at all Jason will have to remove his hood and the faceplate first. I guess what we're mainly going to get is the domino doing strange movements to show his anger or other emotions. I can't imagine that he's going to go around without the faceplate so the mouth is probably out at least for a lot of the time anyway.


You aren't, I thought it was odd too.

I think the reason why they choose the faceplate because it's easy to remove or something? I'm happy with the hoodie, though. No matter what the logic behind it.

----------


## G-Potion

> I still think that this hood/domino/faceplate combo will make Jason's expressions difficult to see but apparently I'm the only one that thinks that. In order to see anything at all Jason will have to remove his hood and the faceplate first. I guess what we're mainly going to get is the domino doing strange movements to show his anger or other emotions. I can't imagine that he's going to go around without the faceplate so the mouth is probably out at least for a lot of the time anyway.


For me the the advantage of the mask/domino is that he only needs to wear one at a time and still be able to keep his identity secret (not sure if he needs to anyway). And either of them is much easier to emote than the helmet. The hoodie can just easily stay down when it needs to (just like how it stayed down most of the time with the R/A costume) so I don't think it's gonna hinder vision that much.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> You aren't, I thought it was odd too.
> 
> I think the reason why they choose the faceplate because it's easy to remove or something? I'm happy with the hoodie, though. No matter what the logic behind it.


Seems like there are a lot of characters with hoodies though so I'm kinda tired of them myself. To each his or her own though. 




> For me the the advantage of the mask/domino is that he only needs to wear one at a time and still be able to keep his identity secret (not sure if he needs to anyway). And either of them is much easier to emote than the helmet. The hoodie can just easily stay down when it needs to (just like how it stayed down most of the time with the R/A costume) so I don't think it's gonna hinder vision that much.


I'm not seeing the faceplate as being something that allows him to emote though. Its looks pretty solid to me so the only way we're gonna see his mouth is if Jason removes it or he's not wearing it. And I'm pretty sure he's going to want to keep his ID a secret. Once he starts hitting the streets again, regardless of where that is, he's not going to want Bat's to come down on him again. I think could be part of the reason for his weapons of choice have been changed as well.

----------


## kaimaciel

His eyes alone can emote quite well. In the UTRH movie, all we had were his voice and eyes and they conveyed his emotions very well in my opinion. 

Regarding Bruce and Jason's fight, do you guys think that will be addressed in other comics? I see a lot of people head-cannoning that Dick will be furious to find out and call Bruce on it, but I don't know... Kate's issue earned a meeting with the entire Bat Family, but I have the feeling Jason will be only mentioned in passing and no one will say anything about it to Bruce. Call me cynical but that's what I've come to expect from the rest of the Bat-titles. 

Also, we're not going to get a resolution to Jason's fate on the Injustice comics, right? That's disappointing. I wanted to know what happened between the 2 games. Is he with Vixen? When did he create the Red Hood persona? Did Batman know about him before Brainiac? C'mon Taylor! I want to know!

----------


## Rise

I think it's none of the batfamily's business and it should stay between Jason and Bruce. 

And about Injustice, I'm personally glad that Taylor didn't do anything because he isn't exactly nice to characters who aren't Harely.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm not seeing the faceplate as being something that allows him to emote though. Its looks pretty solid to me so *the only way we're gonna see his mouth is if Jason removes it or he's not wearing it*. And I'm pretty sure he's going to want to keep his ID a secret. Once he starts hitting the streets again, regardless of where that is, he's not going to want Bat's to come down on him again. I think could be part of the reason for his weapons of choice have been changed as well.


That's what I meant. Since you only need to remove either the mask or the domino, you can easily emote without revealing his whole face. To be fair it could be done also with the helmet/domino combo as well but artists tend not to do that anymore, aside from that one time the Outlaws got jailed, Jason suddenly wore his domino again.

----------


## magpieM

I don't like his helmet keeps being broken. If you always need to break it to show his face, it means either the writer or the artist lacks the ways of expressing Jason's emotions or mental state in words, body language or the overall atmosphere. I only buy the helmet breaking in the latest issue #25 because he and Arty needed to kiss.

The wedding special, RH vs Anarky, had a weak story + ridiculous Anarky (in my opinion). But I particularly like how the artist just use simple body language to show what's going on in his mind when Anarky talked about his motive in the end. Jason's punch gave it a nice closure without his facial expression, extra words, or a broken helmet.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I think it's none of the batfamily's business and it should stay between Jason and Bruce. 
> 
> And about Injustice, I'm personally glad that Taylor didn't do anything because he isn't exactly nice to characters who aren't Harely.


Damian too. But you're right, he focuses a ton of time on Harley. With the whole "changed after being resurrected by the Lazarus Pit" stuff between Alfred and Euthanasia or whatever her name is (I hate her so I'm not even going to bother checking up her name), it would be the perfect chance for Jason to appear. What a missed opportunity...

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't like his helmet keeps being broken. If you always need to break it to show his face, it means either the writer or the artist lacks the ways of expressing Jason's emotions or mental state in words, body language or the overall atmosphere. I only buy the helmet breaking in the latest issue #25 because he and Arty were kissing.
> 
> The wedding special, RH vs Anarky, had a weak story + ridiculous Anarky (in my opinion). But I particularly like how the artist just use simple body language to show what's going on in his mind when Anarky talked about his motive in the end. Jason's punch gave it a nice closure without his facial expression, extra words, or broken helmet


I like the wedding special, but I agree with the rest of your comment. 

In any case, I think it's a bit more limiting, especially for some art styles, to show a wide range of expressions with just the helmet. Having a facemask that can be taken off without trouble makes the job easier as there are more options to choose from, between the mouth and the eyes.

----------


## Zaresh

> *I avoid JayTim fics most of the time but I do trust your recommendation uhhhhh *conflicted** 
> 
> Ghost Story is pretty good however. Strongly seconded.


Chibi_nighthowl is very heavy in the jaytim team. If you don't like their oneshots, don't go for it, because it's the same kind of interactions as always. Well, maybe with a less manipulative Tim, which is a down for me, because I like Tim being rather guile, sarcastic and determined. Here, we have a smart, badass and restless Tim, but an insecure and please seeking one. Which is not of my liking (my first true contact with him was Red Robin, so...), but at least the plot plays with it and makes a whole game out of it.

Also, there is lots and lots of romantic stuff in there, something that again is not entirely of my like. But still, I was looking forward to the latest update: that how much I liked it in the end.

----------


## Zaresh

> His eyes alone can emote quite well. In the UTRH movie, all we had were his voice and eyes and they conveyed his emotions very well in my opinion. 
> 
> Regarding Bruce and Jason's fight, do you guys think that will be addressed in other comics? I see a lot of people head-cannoning that Dick will be furious to find out and call Bruce on it, but I don't know... Kate's issue earned a meeting with the entire Bat Family, but I have the feeling Jason will be only mentioned in passing and no one will say anything about it to Bruce. Call me cynical but that's what I've come to expect from the rest of the Bat-titles. 
> 
> Also, we're not going to get a resolution to Jason's fate on the Injustice comics, right? That's disappointing. I wanted to know what happened between the 2 games. Is he with Vixen? When did he create the Red Hood persona? Did Batman know about him before Brainiac? C'mon Taylor! I want to know!


Hmmm...

I don't think we will see any reaction. I suspect that, at most, Damian will say something (when Bruce discovers his dungeon), and maybe, maybe, Barbara in the three Jokers story. Tim is MIA and Dick is too busy with much more stuff.

In the end, though, it all depends on what the writers do, and I don't think many will take RHATO into any consideration. Not a significant one. I hope I'm wrong, tho, and they do play it... in a good way.

You know what I mean, right?

----------


## kaimaciel

> Hmmm...
> 
> I don't think we will see any reaction. I suspect that, at most, Damian will say something (when Bruce discovers his dungeon), and maybe, maybe, Barbara in the three Jokers story. Tim is MIA and Dick is too busy with much more stuff.
> 
> In the end, though, it all depends on what the writers do, and I don't think many will take RHATO into any consideration. Not a significant one. I hope I'm wrong, tho, and they do play it... in a good way.
> 
> You know what I mean, right?


Yes, I know what you mean. As much as I wanted Rhato to be mentioned, I would prefer if it would be in respectful way to Jason, if not then they should not mention it at all.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yes, I know what you mean. As much as I wanted Rhato to be mentioned, I would prefer if it would be in respectful way to Jason, if not then they should not mention it at all.


Something like that, yes. Because I can already see other books nodding the incident and picturing Jason as a lost cause and a psychopathic villain who just showed his real self or something. You know, the rotten fruit of the bat tree, etc.

----------


## kaimaciel

That's what I'm afraid...

"Oh! Of course, Jason killed someone! It was just a matter of time. Bruce should have known better... blah, blah, blah..."

God, I seriously hope they won't got that way.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> That's what I'm afraid...
> 
> "Oh! Of course, Jason killed someone! It was just a matter of time. Bruce should have known better... blah, blah, blah..."
> 
> God, I seriously hope they won't got that way.


We've already been there so I really hope things don't end up like that. I'd much rather the incident got no mention in other books at all if that's where they go with this. People complain when he's treated like comic relief in other books but to me this would be far worse than that.

----------


## Aahz

> Damian too. But you're right, he focuses a ton of time on Harley. With the whole "changed after being resurrected by the Lazarus Pit" stuff between Alfred and Euthanasia or whatever her name is (I hate her so I'm not even going to bother checking up her name), it would be the perfect chance for Jason to appear. What a missed opportunity...


The whole Daughter of the Bat thin k also didn't really go anywhere imo.

But the the Injustuice Master of the Universe Crossover Jason is already Red Hood, therefore I doubt that we will see much more of this Injustice-Jasons Origin.

Btw. did the End of the comic really match with the game? IIRC Damian was in prison at the beginning of the game but he was still free in the end of the comic.

----------


## Aahz

> Regarding Bruce and Jason's fight, do you guys think that will be addressed in other comics? I see a lot of people head-cannoning that Dick will be furious to find out and call Bruce on it, but I don't know... Kate's issue earned a meeting with the entire Bat Family, but I have the feeling Jason will be only mentioned in passing and no one will say anything about it to Bruce. Call me cynical but that's what I've come to expect from the rest of the Bat-titles.


To me it looks anyway as if Batman is going to have again one of his "loner" phases, therefore I doubt that we will see much family interaction, in the near future.

Dick is apparently going to get injured in one of the next Batman issues, and than Batman is probably going completely solo (apart from the Outsiders and the JL  :Wink: ).

----------


## Aioros22

> Thank you for your input, Aioros22. Though, I'm not sure exactly why you felt it's necessary to bring a post from two days ago that has nothing to do with anything currently nor you added anything to the discussion.


Discussions about fandom get me giggly hot and hey, don't mention it.

----------


## Aioros22

> Something like that, yes. Because I can already see other books nodding the incident and picturing Jason as a lost cause and a psychopathic villain who just showed his real self or something. You know, the rotten fruit of the bat tree, etc.


I'll argued that while a consideration of Jason's flaws would come to the page that he wouldn't be chastisized so. 

For one, because Penguin is not dead and that is no small detail and two, because Bruce's reaction was every bit as emotional triggered. Writers have been somewhat careful in preserving that consideration between lines in the other books (Tec, Batman and NW) but while that may change soon for the arc I don't see them throwing part of the ambiguity formula out to a close. 

And were that ever the case, we, the readers, know what lies down the surface. Personally, that is often enough.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'll argued that while a consideration of Jason's flaws would come to the page that he wouldn't be chastisized so. 
> 
> For one, because Penguin is not dead and that is no small detail and two, because Bruce's reaction was every bit as emotional triggered. Writers have been somewhat careful in preserving that consideration between lines in the other books (Tec, Batman and NW) but while that may change soon for the arc I don't see them throwing part of the ambiguity formula out to a close. 
> 
> And were that ever the case, we, the readers, know what lies down the surface. Personally, that is often enough.


I really hope that you're right.

----------


## Eto

I demand a rematch! Jason v Bruce: round 2 :Mad:

----------


## shadowsgirl

> By the way; if anyone is in the mood of reading a surprisingly very interesting  fluffy-adventure-mystery story with JayTim as the main ship (and DickFire as the support ship), settled in a fantasy AU, chibi_nighthowl just finished what's turned to be the first of a trilogy that started as a just-for-fun-and-fun story. It's not perfect (in fact, it starts very slow and without much of a real plotted direction, but then it catch up into the mystery route after chapter 3 or 4 and almost doesn't stop until the end. Also, as expected from the author, has lots of sex, mostly at the start; so if you don't like that, skip this read entirely, because it's an actual plot point), but it got me hooked and it has some nice twists to the different takes on the characters. I think it's good enought that I can recommend for a fun read, if you can mature rated stuff: The Adventures of Sir Timothy Drake (title will change soon).


I really like this AU with Tim and Jason. Dragon Jason is so protective of his precious books.  :Smile:  Now I totally want an Elseworld comic story with dragon Jason. 

I love these:

"Part of that was his overall lack of knowledge on dragons. There wasn’t much information on them, aside from the fiery rampages they purportedly went on and their desire for gold and treasure. Myth had a tendency to be based in truth and Jason did have a hoard. A hoard of books. Either the stories were all wrong or the dragon he encountered marched to the beat of his own drum. The latter seemed more likely, Tim decided." 


“I sincerely doubt that dragons hoard people,” 
“My den is a fucking library,” Jason snorted in response. “Do you really think I care?” 
“Perhaps once you realize you have to feed me, unlike your books.” 


"Tim had learned that there were some books that Jason flat out refused to ever let see the light of day again, old and rare tomes that were so delicate to touch that he wore special gloves and used tweezers to turn the pages when reading. Tim had been enthralled by these and dutifully wore the gloves Jason gave him when he showed him one. The illuminated pages of the manuscript were some of the most beautiful he’d ever seen. His current reading material certainly wasn’t in that category, but there were others that the dragon simply didn’t want to leave the cave."

----------


## Zaresh

> I really like this AU with Tim and Jason. Dragon Jason is so protective of his precious books.  Now I totally want an Elseworld comic story with dragon Jason. 
> 
> I love these:
> 
> "Part of that was his overall lack of knowledge on dragons. There wasn’t much information on them, aside from the fiery rampages they purportedly went on and their desire for gold and treasure. Myth had a tendency to be based in truth and Jason did have a hoard. A hoard of books. Either the stories were all wrong or the dragon he encountered marched to the beat of his own drum. The latter seemed more likely, Tim decided." 
> 
> 
> “I sincerely doubt that dragons hoard people,” 
> “My den is a fucking library,” Jason snorted in response. “Do you really think I care?” 
> ...


Dragon Jason is a real piece of work. I honestly had a lot of fun reading him, mostly because he always was plotting something that he never gave away until way later, and he always had a retort for every comment other characters made.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Dragon Jason is a real piece of work. I honestly had a lot of fun reading him, mostly because he always was plotting something that he never gave away until way later, and he always had a retort for every comment other characters made.


It's a really fun story. And Tim can be so cruel sometimes:

"When the dragon groused about leaving the cave unattended for so long, Tim’s blithe response about no one using his books for anything other than kindling during a cold winter did not go over well, leaving Jason huffing smoke for several hours afterwards, effectively driving Tim out of the cave to fend for himself one night. It had been worth it, getting under Jason’s skin and seeing him pout like some maiden whose favorite trinket had been threatened." 

Poor Jay  :Smile: 

Mar’i is so adorable. I love that she and Jason were already in cahoots and they hadn’t even known each other an hour yet. :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> It's a really fun story. And Tim can be so cruel sometimes:
> 
> "When the dragon groused about leaving the cave unattended for so long, Tim’s blithe response about no one using his books for anything other than kindling during a cold winter did not go over well, leaving Jason huffing smoke for several hours afterwards, effectively driving Tim out of the cave to fend for himself one night. It had been worth it, getting under Jason’s skin and seeing him pout like some maiden whose favorite trinket had been threatened." 
> 
> Poor Jay 
> 
> Mar’i is so adorable. I love that she and Jason were already in cahoots and they hadn’t even known each other an hour yet.


I'm hyped for Damian, to be honest (because the implications that every change of the background of certain characters means for him when he finally appears, because I'm counting with him appearing). Knowing that this will not continue until New Year is killing me a bit, heh.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> I'm hyped for Damian, to be honest (because the implications that every change of the background of certain characters means for him when he finally appears, because I'm counting with him appearing). Knowing that this will not continue until New Year is killing me a bit, heh.


Yeah, he will probably appear. It will be interesting.  :Smile:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Roy  :Frown: 
DlewDxjXcAABYbs.jpg

----------


## Sergard

> Roy 
> DlewDxjXcAABYbs.jpg


I've already seen that page a few days ago (there are similar pages for Booster Gold, Harley and Blue Jay. They all look so vulnerable).
Seeing it still makes me sad. I really hope Roy will be fine. Although the Green Arrow tie-in with HiC gives me a bad feeling.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## RedBird

_Jason is serious now._


The REAL reason he shaves it off :P

----------


## G-Potion

Ahaha I think this might be my favorite jjmk comic for a long while.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The series is becoming Red Hood: Outlaw

https://www.newsarama.com/41611-red-...ason-todd.html

----------


## Rise

Finally we hear from the man himself. 

He seem pretty secretive about the new direction, but we learn couple of things like Jason is definitely not going to be like the punisher (YES!) and instead going to be more like Clint Eastwood in his early days, the book will be renamed, issue 27 going to be pretty emotional (come on Lobdell, take it easy on our hearts) and the new arc going to be pretty intense. 

I'm pretty excited for whatever he is planning.

----------


## thebluefeline

> The series is becoming Red Hood: Outlaw
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/41611-red-...ason-todd.html


27 is gonna hurt. I'm a little skeptical of just how much violence they're going for with the new direction but hopefully it won't be beyond the reasonable amount. And the name change, I didn't think solo Red Hood would last more than an arc but it may be a permanent direction (I don't mind it since he said he's has a subplot for Artemis+Bizzaro) I also like that he mentioned that the office considered RHATO as a favorite ^_^

Edit: Btw, I might be reading into it too much but I get the feeling he's implying that Jason might not have intended to kill Penguin with the "over the edge" comment? Kinda like he aimed to get as close to wounding him to death as possible but not outright kill him. He also says Penguin is in the hospital so he's still definitely alive

----------


## Rise

> I also like that he mentioned that the office considered RHATO as a favorite ^_^


Nice surprise indeed to hear that RHATO is a favourite in DC.

----------


## magpieM

> The series is becoming Red Hood: Outlaw
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/41611-red-...ason-todd.html


Wow, what an interview! Thank you for sharing it!

I love the idea of a more 'dynamic' team size, and that while Jason appears to be alone, the stories about other team members are still going on as a subplot. It adds more layers & leads to the story. And I'm really hyped for #27 now...

----------


## JasonTodd428

Ah, so this new direction might have indeed come from someone above Lobdell then. He even says so in this interview and the interviewer also mentions it.




> Lobdell: "As much as everyone loves the dynamic between Jason, Artemis and Bizarro (I have it on good authority Red Hood and the Outlaws is a favorite around the DC offices), *there were some discussions way above my pay grade: What would happen if Jason were alone for a while?"*
> 
> Nrama: Right. But as you pointed out, you’ve been writing this character’s story for awhile now. *Aside from being a publishing decision*, do you think this move makes sense in Jason’s overarching story? Does it follow what you’ve been exploring recently with the character?


Since historically speaking such moves haven't never been particularly kind to Jason that makes me still feel uneasy about this. Still I do love the idea of Jason being a sort of Clint Eastwood type character during this period and that is enough to keep me on board with this solo Jason business for the time being. I'm good so long as the higher ups don't use this new direction as an excuse to return him to his Pre-FP psychotic killer existence. I'm also liking that Biz and Artemis are still going to be a subplot to all this.

----------


## hero talk

I new it I was right I it was other people doing this

----------


## magpieM

> Ah, so this new direction might have indeed come from someone above Lobdell then. He even says so in this interview and the interviewer also mentions it.
> 
> Since historically speaking such moves haven't never been particularly kind to Jason that makes me still feel uneasy about this. Still I do love the idea of Jason being a sort of Clint Eastwood type character during this period and that is enough to keep me on board with this solo Jason business for the time being. I'm good so long as the higher ups don't use this new direction as an excuse to return him to his Pre-FP psychotic killer existence. I'm also liking that Biz and Artemis are still going to be a subplot to all this.


But I don't think it's like all of a sudden that someone above him made this decision to separate the team. If that's the case, it must have happend before Biz became smart, because the separation of the team (or a dark, painful turning point for Jason and the team) has been deeply rooted for a long time, at least no later than the appearance of those letters a year ago. And the conversation between Jason and Croc had implied that Jason and his friends would be heading in different directions. 

And in fact Lobdell himself mentioned it here again that Jason has always been wearing a mask in front of his true friends (or people he cares). So actually I'm really exited about Jason going solo for a short while. It's not just because we've never seen him being solo for so many years even though we often refer him as a 'lone wolf' type of person, but also because finally, Lobdell will reveal Jason's true self with his writing, he's going to take off this 'hood'. I'm more exited about what's Jason's solo image would be like in Lobdell's mind. Maybe it's something really horrible and dark that could even scare Queen bee to death (sorry about mentioning this clue again, I'm just so intrigued by this unsolved mystery...)

----------


## Jackalope89

> But I don't think it's like all of a sudden that someone above him made this decision to separate the team. If that's the case, it must have happend before Biz became smart, because the separation of the team (or a dark, painful turning point for Jason and the team) has been deeply rooted for a long time, at least no later than the appearance of those letters a year ago. And the conversation between Jason and Croc had implied that Jason and his friends would be heading in different directions. 
> 
> And in fact Lobdell himself mentioned it here again that Jason has always been wearing a mask in front of his true friends (or people he cares). So actually I'm really exited about Jason going solo for a short while. It's not just because we've never seen him being solo for so many years even though we often refer him as a 'lone wolf' type of person, but also because finally, Lobdell will reveal Jason's true self with his writing, he's going to take off this 'hood'. I'm more exited about what's Jason's solo image would be like in Lobdell's mind. Maybe it's something really horrible and dark that could even scare Queen bee to death (sorry about mentioning this clue again, I'm just so intrigued by this unsolved mystery...)


So, a journey of self-discovery, huh? In a new town, no big bad Bat lurking around the corner, separated from a team that has seemingly been more like family to him than most of the Bat Family (barring Alfred at least, maybe Dick), and many anger issues to work out...

Meh. After reading Darkness, it takes a lot for it to be THAT dark for me (though, some of it was the dark humor sort of dark as well). Besides which, Arty and Big B are lost, possibly in the Dark Multiverse (not a spoiler, as it hasn't been confirmed), and they're going to have their own journey to get back home to "Red Him". 

Which raises SO many more questions about Artemis in the Wonder Woman series right now.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> But I don't think it's like all of a sudden that someone above him made this decision to separate the team. If that's the case, it must have happend before Biz became smart, because the separation of the team (or a dark, painful turning point for Jason and the team) has been deeply rooted for a long time, at least no later than the appearance of those letters a year ago. And the conversation between Jason and Croc had implied that Jason and his friends would be heading in different directions.


I never said it was a sudden change or that things weren't set up to accommodate the this particular direction. All I was saying was that its interesting to me that while I've seen some fans insisting that this direction is all on Lobdell the idea was not in fact his alone. Some part of it actually did come from higher up. Ergo it is, at least in part anyway, a mandate from someone. And honestly looking at the overall tone of the DCU at the moment I can't say I'm entirely surprised either.

As for what we will see when Lobdell starts showing the "true" Jason I'm excited to see that so long as editorial doesn't use this as an excuse to make him crazy again.

----------


## Zaresh

> Ah, so this new direction might have indeed come from someone above Lobdell then. He even says so in this interview and the interviewer also mentions it.
> 
> 
> 
> Since historically speaking such moves haven't never been particularly kind to Jason that makes me still feel uneasy about this. Still I do love the idea of Jason being a sort of Clint Eastwood type character during this period and that is enough to keep me on board with this solo Jason business for the time being. I'm good so long as the higher ups don't use this new direction as an excuse to return him to his Pre-FP psychotic killer existence. I'm also liking that Biz and Artemis are still going to be a subplot to all this.


I think you said pretty much my hopes and fears in this post, so, I'll borrow from you. I'm the same here, to the T.

----------


## Arsenal

> I never said it was a sudden change or that things weren't set up to accommodate the this particular direction. All I was saying was that its interesting to me that while I've seen some fans insisting that this direction is all on Lobdell the idea was not in fact his alone. Some part of it actually did come from higher up. Ergo it is, at least in part anyway, a mandate from someone. And honestly looking at the overall tone of the DCU at the moment I can't say I'm entirely surprised either.
> 
> As for what we will see when Lobdell starts showing the "true" Jason I'm excited to see that so long as editorial doesn't use this as an excuse to make him crazy again.


Shouldnt the fact that the people upstairs are not only talking about Jason, but are interested in testing the water for a solo Red Hood run be a good sign? Maybe Im just being optimistic here but I have to assume that means they see potential in the character and have faith in Lobdell to make it work. I just dont see DC making Jason go psycho again because thats not the version thats made him more popular than hes been in a long time (maybe ever?) 

I just think that once the arc is over, theres a greater chance that Jason will end up even further away from his pre-flash point characterization than closer to it.

----------


## G-Potion

I think Lobdell is within acceptable bounds, often very frank about what he thinks. And with this interview, I can't help but be excited about what's in store, because he clearly is. As for the tibit on where this direction came from, I like to think of it as less a mandate but more like an opportunity. As he said, RHATO is a favorite in the office (surprised!), possibly enough that higher-ups might have become more invested in the potential Red Hood could have, rather than just let his book be kind of there. Coupled with what Lobdell himself said about Jason masking a lot of his issues in the presence of his friends; and that after seven years of RHATO, solo-Jason should be an interesting thing to examine. Meaning in order to further explore the character, this direction must happen eventually. If Lobdell says he cried writing #27, I absolutely can't wait to see it.

Lastly, 




> I’d like to think the best series are the ones that are always changing, no?


This is totally my jam.

----------


## G-Potion

> Shouldn’t the fact that the people upstairs are not only talking about Jason, but are interested in testing the water for a solo Red Hood run be a good sign? Maybe I’m just being optimistic here but I have to assume that means they see potential in the character and have faith in Lobdell to make it work. I just don’t see DC making Jason go psycho again because that’s not the version that’s made him more popular than he’s been in a long time (maybe ever?) 
> 
> I just think that once the arc is over, there’s a greater chance that Jason will end up even further away from his pre-flash point characterization than closer to it.


Yep yep. I'm with you.

----------


## G-Potion

> Maybe it's something really horrible and dark that could even scare Queen bee to death (sorry about mentioning this clue again, I'm just so intrigued by this unsolved mystery...)


I'm really really hoping he picks this plot point up again.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> This is totally my jam.


As long isn't some idiotic change brought by the desire of "shock" the readers, destroying the character in the process.

----------


## G-Potion

> As long isn't some idiotic change brought by the desire of "shock" the readers, destroying the character in the process.


Well, let me change that to totally my jam if Lobdell stays in control.

----------


## Raijin

Idk. Maybe I'm not understanding the "more like Clint Eastwood, less like Punisher" bit. I can argued that Frank is based off of those Wastwood-type characters. But I trust Lobdell, either way it'll be an interesting direction.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk



based on this

Only way to fix this :P

----------


## Sergard

> The series is becoming Red Hood: Outlaw
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/41611-red-...ason-todd.html


"I've never seen such violence rendered so beautifully." - That's a ... statement. Aesthetic violence in RHatO. I don't know if I should be curious - or scared.
Glad to hear that Bizarro and Artemis are not "tossed aside".
And I'm getting more and more excited to see how Jason will act on a solo run compared to his time on a team - and how the latter affects his behavior.
Not looking forward to issue 27. I don't think Lobdell cried tears of joy. I can already imagine what is going to happen.
It's a hard time for Roy fans. I'm still hoping that Roy will be fine and that he gets a (mini-)series afterwards.
I'd like to see some characterization that combines his appearances in RHatO, Titans and Green Arrow.
Only knowing his RHatO run and having seen a few glimpses of Titans and GA I still feel like I don't really understand Roy's character.

----------


## RedBird

Okay, so they ended up doing exactly what I suggested they would. 
Messily and obviously just cross out the title to make it new. :P


Sorry for the small image size.

EDIT: Wait I just noticed even the bat symbol on the left is crossed off. HAHA

----------


## G-Potion

This cover looks a bit too many colours than expected. @_@

But now that Lobdell mentioned it, looking at this again, I definitely think Woods is pretty good at rendering fight scenes.

----------


## Rise

Here's a bigger version.

----------


## Rise

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> based on this
> 
> Only way to fix this :P


Best way to handle Jason and Bruce.

----------


## Zaresh

> Lastly, 
> 
> 
> 
> This is totally my jam.


Me too, to no one's surprise.

----------


## Zaresh

> Here's a bigger version.


A bit too busy, but clever logo indeed. And expressive, too. Just... a bit too busy, because background is too much highlighted.

----------


## Aioros22

It`s Loedbell. The chances of Jason going psycho are close to null. He`s raging and within good reason as far as the character may be concerned.

----------


## adrikito

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> based on this
> 
> Only way to fix this :P


*Batfamily:* Enough of discussions.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Shouldn’t the fact that the people upstairs are not only talking about Jason, but are interested in testing the water for a solo Red Hood run be a good sign? Maybe I’m just being optimistic here but I have to assume that means they see potential in the character and have faith in Lobdell to make it work. I just don’t see DC making Jason go psycho again because that’s not the version that’s made him more popular than he’s been in a long time (maybe ever?)


It should be a good sign but it can also be a bit of a double-edged sword particularly if one is talking about a character that no writer (or editor for that matter), except Lobdell, has had a very good handle on in the first place because they REFUSE to even do the necessary research. Those are the guys I'm really talking about particularly if someone new comes onto the book at some point, well them and Didio and his crew who I have never trusted from the get go. On the other hand you could be exactly right about all of this and I could be over-reacting. That doesn't however prevent me from feeling apprehensive though. So long as Didio is in charge of things I'm always apprehensive on some level or other. Do I trust that Lobdell has a long-term plan for this direction? Yes. Do I trust him to write this direction with far more nuance than any other writer? Again yes. But do I trust the people above him to just let him do his job with minimal interference? Not on your life. 




> I just think that once the arc is over, there’s a greater chance that Jason will end up even further away from his pre-flash point characterization than closer to it.


I really hope this turns out to be the case. 




> I think Lobdell is within acceptable bounds, often very frank about what he thinks. And with this interview, I can't help but be excited about what's in store, because he clearly is. *As for the tibit on where this direction came from, I like to think of it as less a mandate but more like an opportunity. As he said, RHATO is a favorite in the office (surprised!), possibly enough that higher-ups might have become more invested in the potential Red Hood could have, rather than just let his book be kind of there.* Coupled with what Lobdell himself said about Jason masking a lot of his issues in the presence of his friends; and that after seven years of RHATO, solo-Jason should be an interesting thing to examine. Meaning in order to further explore the character, this direction must happen eventually. If Lobdell says he cried writing #27, I absolutely can't wait to see it.


Regarding the bolded maybe it is more akin to an opportunity and perhaps the high-ups have taken more of an interest in Jason's potential but at the end of the day it still was an idea discussed by those higher-ups so there is a bit of a mandate aspect to the direction I still feel. Whether that's going to turn out to be good or bad remains to be seen though. For myself I tend to err on the side of caution and to not get my hopes up to much. I've gotten burned on to many times in the past with direction changes that amounted to nothing or didn't stick or had no lasting effect on the character or were merely just stepping stones to something worse. 

As for the rest of you post, I do hope that Lobdell does plan to explore those issues and that he actually will have Jason dealing with them in the course of this direction. I think it would be interesting for Jason to finally delve into those issues a bit more than he does and maybe start to get some closure on things. He seriously needs to stop masking his issue among his friends. Like Starfire once told him: Jason needs to release the rage inside of himself before it consumes him.And also based on what Lobdell has said I am very anxious to see what #27 brings. Sounds like its gonna be another kick in the feels. 




> As long isn't some idiotic change brought by the desire of "shock" the readers, destroying the character in the process.


My thoughts exactly. I'm only okay with the direction at all because Lobdell is still on the book. If it was anyone else they wouldn't even be getting my money on it unless I heard from fans that it was very, very good and handled Jason in this mode with some nuance. I really hope this move isn't for the shock value of it (or that it doesn't end up being for that at some later date either) and this was done because there is actual potential in this direction both from the publishing standpoint and the character standpoint. 




> A bit too busy, but clever logo indeed. And expressive, too. Just... a bit too busy, because background is too much highlighted.


Yeah that cover is just a bit too busy. It's very expressive and sums up what this direction is going be about but its still really, really busy. On the other hand at least my eyes don't automatically go to that damned crowbar with all the other things happening on the cover so I guess that's a win.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
I do like the way that things are crossed out on the title name and so forth though.

----------


## Sergard

> EDIT: Wait I just noticed even the bat symbol on the left is crossed off. HAHA


Maybe DC will swap the bat symbol with the new Red Hood logo. That would be interesting and could mean that Jason won't reconcile with Batman in the near future.

There seems to be something behind the bat symbol. Looks like a dog's head. What's up with that?

And I'm surprised that the colors of the cover background were changed. I prefer the original version because there was a bigger contrast between background and Jason. This one is so... colorful.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> There seems to be something behind the bat symbol. Looks like a dog's head. What's up with that?


That's Scooby Doo from SD! Apocalypse.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> And I'm surprised that the colors of the cover background were changed. I prefer the original version because there was a bigger contrast between background and Jason. This one is so... colorful.


I couldn't quite put a finger on why I was feeling the cover was too busy but I think you've pinpointed it for me. I agree with you about liking the original version more. This just seems over saturated to me to be honest and I liked the contrast of the previous one better.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It`s Loedbell. The chances of Jason going psycho are close to null. He`s raging and within good reason as far as the character may be concerned.


And against those that deserve it.

----------


## Sergard

> That's Scooby Doo from SD! Apocalypse.


Is this some kind of "hidden" promotion? Is there some special event coming up in the Scooby Apocalypse comic? I'm a little bit confused why Scooby is on the RHatO cover.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It`s Loedbell. The chances of Jason going psycho are close to null. He`s raging and within good reason as far as the character may be concerned.


It's not Lobdell that worries me though, its the other writers and editors and Didio. Lobdell will certainly do just fine with this direction if he's left alone to do what he wants to do with the story but that doesn't mean there won't be pressure from higher-ups to do things with it he doesn't necessarily want to. Look at the situation with Artemis being a love interest for Jason. That was something during the Rebirth book that editors where pushing that Lobdell pushed back on but there could be some larger mandate dealing with the bigger picture that he won't be allowed to avoid. (Like Seeley wasn't able to avoid using Bludhaven for example) All I'm saying is that now that Jason is back to being, at least on the surface, the violent type of character he was Pre-FP that writers and editors might be more familiar and comfortable with I've lowered my expectations even more when it comes to other writers potential use of him in their books.

----------


## Rise

Pre-flashpoint Jason didn't have a book and was used as a secondary character to props up other characters which end up being badly received. This isn't case now and hopefully never will be again.

I'm all for not getting expectations too high because this always result in disappointment, but being too negative isn't good either. The new arc will start in two weeks, let's wait and see how it goes instead of worrying unnecessarily.

----------


## RedBird

Bella Rachlin

----------


## G-Potion

Dark Trinity by Christian Dave Gonzales

https://www.**********.com/artwork/0NaQy

----------


## byrd156

> Okay, so they ended up doing exactly what I suggested they would. 
> Messily and obviously just cross out the title to make it new. :P
> 
> 
> Sorry for the small image size.
> 
> EDIT: Wait I just noticed even the bat symbol on the left is crossed off. HAHA


Why is the one on the left crossed off but not the giant one in the Os?

----------


## RedBird

> Why is the one on the left crossed off but not the giant one in the Os?


I'm assuming since for all intents and purposes the 'scratched out bat' and solo thing is temporary. It's easier to make a wink and nudge statement by just crossing out the bat symbol on the cover, rather than say, redesigning an official graphic logo that may be changed back eventually anyway.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Pre-flashpoint Jason didn't have a book and was used as a secondary character to props up other characters which end up being badly received. This isn't case now and hopefully never will be again.


And there are times that he is still being used as a secondary character to prop up someone else even with having a book. There are also other times when his appearances in other books are not at all consistent with his characterization in his own book even with his having his own book. Sorry but I don't see how his treatment by other writers has changed all that much as a result of his having a book and I still feel that its been happening even in Rebirth. All I've seen, for the most part anyway, is writers who don't really know what to do with him or who don't bother to research properly so they either just have him standing around in the background but not contributing anything of substance or as comic relief which makes him appear to be a one note type of character. It's really the same thing as Pre-FP.




> I'm all for not getting expectations too high because this always result in disappointment, but being too negative isn't good either. The new arc will start in two weeks, let's wait and see how it goes instead of worrying unnecessarily.


Sorry but only time will be able to ease my concerns in all honesty. Really the only thing that will easy me mind completely about this direction is when I actually have the issue in my hand to read (though I'm not particularly concerned with Lobdell or what he has planned only what other people may do with it) and most especially when I see any other writer outside of Lobdell using this new direction in a way that is consistent with how he will be portrayed in RH: Outlaw and not as an excuse to have him suddenly start killing people left and right because "hey reasons". Sorry if my being concerned is annoying but it is what it is.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I'm assuming since for all intents and purposes the 'scratched out bat' and solo thing is temporary. It's easier to make a wink and nudge statement by just crossing out the bat symbol on the cover, rather than say, redesigning an official graphic logo that may be changed back eventually anyway.


Only I though that we were getting a new logo starting with issue #27. Isn't that what the interview Lobdell gave said or did I misread it?

----------


## RedBird

> Only I though that we were getting a new logo starting with issue #27. Isn't that what the interview Lobdell gave said or did I misread it?


Are they? I assumed changes would ensue with issue 26, is issue 27 where it officially changes?

_"AndI don't know if you know it but the book goes through a title change with issue #27 when it becomes Red Hood: Outlaw."_

It indicates the title changing but I wonder if they will redesign the logo too.

EDIT: ugh now that I think about it, I'd rather they just make the OOs normal rather than say, integrating his new logo into them. Not a fan.

----------


## byrd156

Just read issue 25 and the Annual with Roy. The character work is good between them but it feels so wrong and misplaced. It's just a constant reminder of everything Roy has lost with reboot. Yeah he lost pretty much everything before the reboot but this was a chance to fix all that and now he just feels like a tool to prop up Jason. 

As for Issue #25 I loved it, losing the team was emotional and I loved the showdown with Bruce. This should have happened a long time ago. I get Bruce giving him a chance but Jason plays by his own rules and convictions. It just wasn't ever going to work out and that's how it should be between them. Jason as a villain or as an anti-hero who is still antagonistic with Bruce.

----------


## Rise

> And there are times that he is still being used as a secondary character to prop up someone else even with having a book. There are also other times when his appearances in other books are not at all consistent with his characterization in his own book even with his having his own book. Sorry but I don't see how his treatment by other writers has changed all that much as a result of his having a book and I still feel that its been happening even in Rebirth. All I've seen, for the most part anyway, is writers who don't really know what to do with him or who don't bother to research properly so they either just have him standing around in the background but not contributing anything of substance or as comic relief which makes him appear to be a one note type of character. It's really the same thing as Pre-FP.


There's no comparison between how Jason was used in pre-flashpoint and how his appearances in other books went post it. I'm not going to go into another discussion about the latter because we already talked about it to death and in the former he was used as a villain with no motivation or reason because DC didn't have a direction for him at that time (even then, it was just three or two book where he appeared for few issues and it's nothing compared to the rest of history).




> Sorry but only time will be able to ease my concerns in all honesty. Really the only thing that will easy me mind completely about this direction is when I actually have the issue in my hand to read (though I'm not particularly concerned with Lobdell or what he has planned only what other people may do with it) and most especially when I see any other writer outside of Lobdell using this new direction in a way that is consistent with how he will be portrayed in RH: Outlaw and not as an excuse to have him suddenly start killing people left and right because "hey reasons". Sorry if my being concerned is annoying but it is what it is


You are going to spend months worrying since we already know he won't appear outside of his book in the next three months? It's up to you, but why would you do this to yourself? Also, we already know that Jason isn't becoming a villain in his own book.

----------


## Rise

> Dark Trinity by Christian Dave Gonzales
> 
> https://www.**********.com/artwork/0NaQy


Fan artists really love the white streak.

----------


## Zaresh

> Just read issue 25 and the Annual with Roy. The character work is good between them but it feels so wrong and misplaced. It's just a constant reminder of everything Roy has lost with reboot. Yeah he lost pretty much everything before the reboot but this was a chance to fix all that and now he just feels like a tool to prop up Jason. 
> 
> As for Issue #25 I loved it, losing the team was emotional and I loved the showdown with Bruce. This should have happened a long time ago. I get Bruce giving him a chance but Jason plays by his own rules and convictions. It just wasn't ever going to work out and that's how it should be between them. Jason as a villain or as an anti-hero who is still antagonistic with Bruce.


Jason as a villain is a one-trick pony. It doesn't work anymore, and it's uninteresting for any long time reader. And also makes him a total tool to Batman as it put him at his entire service. He works better as an anti-hero working ups and downs in the heroic scale.

And this issue, the annual, wasn't about Jason at all. It was all about two things: Roy and what it means to take a step towards regaining one's life, and the Su Sisters and what familly actually means. You dislike Roy in N52? Fair enough, and I get it, really; but it's what it is now, his background has changed, and his history has been partialy deleted, same as had happened to a lot of C and D listers. Heck, even B listers like Dick lost a lot. We have to dealwithit andenjoy whatwe can get now (as a Wally fan, I know I will regret my words, but internally and secretly only).

----------


## Rise

I wouldn't say that the annual wasn't about Jason at all and that it's mainly about Roy. It was a celebration of the bond they shared and a send off for Roy in someway while also setting up for the next arc.

----------


## Zaresh

> I wouldn't say that the annual wasn't about Jason at all and that it's mainly about Roy. It was a celebration of the bond they shared and a send off for Roy in someway while also setting up for the next arc.


Well, ok, maybe it was about Jason too, as they share the bond. But I meant more like, it wasn't that Roy was there just to make Jason show or progress in any way. It definitely showed a lot of how Roy was feeling and how he was towards others (Jason, Croc). And the themes were actually points at Jason's overarc service (family, recovery), but they weren't just his. I am bad at translating what I mean, I know. I  apologize.

In any case, it was also a very nice tribute for those who did like the former team.

----------


## Rise

Nah, it's ok. I got what you mean.

Just be careful not to get any argument about n52 rhato going because it's always lead to nowhere.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> There's no comparison between how Jason was used in pre-flashpoint and how his appearances in other books went post it. I'm not going to go into another discussion about the latter because we already talked about it to death and in the former he was used as a villain with no motivation or reason because DC didn't have a direction for him at that time (even then, it was just three or two book where he appeared for few issues and it's nothing compared to the rest of history).


I wasn't saying it was literally the same thing though. While he wasn't a villain with no motivation this time around I would say that writers clearly still had no idea what to do with him either and in that way it is pretty much the same as Pre-FP. Just my opinion.




> You are going to spend months worrying since we already know he won't appear outside of his book in the next three months? It's up to you, but why would you do this to yourself? Also, we already know that Jason isn't becoming a villain in his own book.


You seem to think that I'm gonna spend the next several months actively worrying my fool head off when that's not really the case at all. Am I concerned on some level sure but I'm not gonna be sitting around every waking moment biting my nails and wringing my hands over this either. That would be ridiculous. I've plenty of other things to occupy my time that are vastly more important than that. And I never said he was becoming a villiain in his own book. I'm NOT concerned about what Lobdell's gonna do in his own book and I believe I've already said that a zillion times now.

----------


## Rise

I didn't say you are going to spend your free time worrying about it, I just hoped that not every single time we talk about the new arc you start worrying about how the other writers will handle it. 

I honestly don't get why you are so worried that other writers will use it as chance to write him as villain. But like I said before, I don't want to get into another discussion about the writers who only wrote him for few pages and has no affect on him.

----------


## byrd156

> Jason as a villain is a one-trick pony. It doesn't work anymore, and it's uninteresting for any long time reader. And also makes him a total tool to Batman as it put him at his entire service. He works better as an anti-hero working ups and downs in the heroic scale.
> 
> And this issue, the annual, wasn't about Jason at all. It was all about two things: Roy and what it means to take a step towards regaining one's life, and the Su Sisters and what familly actually means. You dislike Roy in N52? Fair enough, and I get it, really; but it's what it is now, his background has changed, and his history has been partialy deleted, same as had happened to a lot of C and D listers. Heck, even B listers like Dick lost a lot. We have to dealwithit andenjoy whatwe can get now (as a Wally fan, I know I will regret my words, but internally and secretly only).


Just accepting inferior versions that are just as 2-Dimensional as the paper they are printed on isn't something that I want to do. Taking away everything that makes these characters special and then saying deal with it is BS. Why should we accept that? Just because it's the only choice?

People voted and they wanted Jason dead because they didn't like him. He came back and him wanting vengeance is what his character journey should be about. The only reason he has been getting all the love is because of the reboot which took elements, characters, and relationships from more successful characters and used those things to prop Jason up. The Outlaws were built on Dick's friends and relationships. Bizarro and Artemis were definite upgrades because those characters fit a hell of a lot better than Starfire and Roy.

Jason being a villain works well, we saw it work wonders in Morrison's run on Batman. Some people dislike the costume and that's fine but I loved it, that Jason was smart and felt like he was strong in his convictions and characterization. He wanted to take Batman's teachings and twist them into his own dark version of justice. Even taking on his own "Robin" with Scarlet. He is still considered an anti-hero who kills bad guys while being at odds with Batman. The reason I can't get behind this action hero anti-hero Red Hood is because he feels so surface level. I don't feel any depth to him or his mission which should be ridding criminals in his own brutal form of justice. I prefer heroes who don't kill over those that do but one reason I love characters like Ghost Rider or Punisher is because theses anti-heroes stick to their convictions and missions. They don't falter or deal with someone else and say I'll be good or tone myself down for you. Sure there are certain instances when that happens but not to the extent of Jason. Jason promised that he wouldn't kill and gets to part of the bat-family again. That's why I'm so glad Batman killed the crap out of him and took away his symbol. 

Jason doesn't belong in the bat-family anymore, it makes him look weak. He compromises his beliefs and convictions so he gets to hang out with the other kids. He should say, "F*** you Bruce! I do things my own way and there is nothing short of killing me again that will stop me." I personally don't like the reboot Jason because I find Lodbell's writing for him to be very annoying and the major issue of Jason still being on good terms with Bruce. Part of the tragedy of Jason's character should be that he lost that connection and wants it back but can't. It felt so damn artificial and unearned. Jason should be the cast out son who is at odds with the very people he wants to be with. That makes for good drama, not Jason saying "you're right I won't kill in Gotham" but run around elsewhere and kill people. It makes Bruce look weak and stupid along with the rest of the family. It's a no win scenario for both sides and I'm glad things are finally making a turn.

I actually liked Pre-Flashpoint Jason because he was a tragic character. All that feels gone now.

----------


## Rise

> Just accepting inferior versions that are just as 2-Dimensional as the paper they are printed on isn't something that I want to do





> He should say, "F*** you Bruce! I do things my own way and there is nothing short of killing me again that will stop me."

----------


## Rise

This pretty accurate.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I didn't say you are going to spend your free time worrying about it, I just hoped that not every single time we talk about the new arc you start worrying about how the other writers will handle it.


If I misread what you said then no harm done but it did seem to me you were implying just that. It even seems so in this quote where you say you just didn't want me to keep brining it up in future posts thereby assuming I would continue to do so. 




> I honestly don't get why you are so worried that other writers will use it as chance to write him as villain. But like I said before, I don't want to get into another discussion about the writers who only wrote him for few pages and has no affect on him.


Because I care about the character and want to see him being used well in appearances outside his own book. I would have thought that was obvious.

----------


## byrd156

> 


Thats ironic how? Being at odds with Bruce due to warring ideologies is somehow 2-dimensional?

----------


## Rise

The fact you think pre-flashpoint Jason who is only purpose in life is obsessing over the batfamily and being fodder for them is "wonderful" while declaring you won't accept for characters to be 2-dimensional is quite ironic.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Thats ironic how? Being at odds with Bruce due to warring ideologies is somehow 2-dimensional?


That's not the part that's one dimensional nor is the idea itself so. It's how writers handled it and Jason that oftentimes has been. Pre-FP it became stale because all writer did with the idea was make Jason into a crazed lunatic with Daddy issues who did things merely to get a rise out of the Bats. There was no nuance to it and very little of any direction either. On top of that writer after writer kept harping on the same exact point until they were basically beating a dead horse. There are more interesting ways to show that the two have warring ideologies that don't involve Jason needing to be a crazy lunatic or needing to physically confront anyone in the family.

----------


## byrd156

> The fact you think pre-flashpoint Jason who is only purpose in life is obsessing over the batfamily and being fodder for them is "wonderful" while declaring you won't accept for characters to be 2-dimensional is quite ironic.


I never said he would be obsessing over the bat-family. Where did I say that? If you read my post you would understand my point.

*Some people dislike the costume and that's fine but I loved it, that Jason was smart and felt like he was strong in his convictions and characterization. He wanted to take Batman's teachings and twist them into his own dark version of justice. Even taking on his own "Robin" with Scarlet. He is still considered an anti-hero who kills bad guys while being at odds with Batman.*

But as you said a Jason whose only purpose is to obsess over Bruce and and the family is exactly my point.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

My point is that Jason should be at odds with Bruce and the family because of his own beliefs conflicting with everyone else's like the Pre-flashpoint version. He should be brutal to criminals and Bruce would want to go after him when they are close in proximity.

----------


## byrd156

> That's not the part that's one dimensional nor is the idea itself so. It's how writers handled it and Jason that oftentimes has been. Pre-FP it became stale because all writer did with the idea was make Jason into a crazed lunatic with Daddy issues who did things merely to get a rise out of the Bats. There was no nuance to it and very little of any direction either. On top of that writer after writer kept harping on the same exact point until they were basically beating a dead horse. There are more interesting ways to show that the two have warring ideologies that don't involve Jason needing to be a crazy lunatic or needing to physically confront anyone in the family.


That's bad writers, you said so yourself that it's not one-dimensional. I want Jason to work, I don't like to hate characters in comics. I hate very few but sadly the New 52 characterization of Jason is one of them. I think the right writing team can make anything work and its not like this idea is super difficult to pull off.

Hell Ollie pre-52 would argue and debate literally anyone he could get his hands on when it came to beliefs. You have arguments like that between Jason and Bruce with awesome spectacle fight scenes and it can make for some really great character work for the both of them.

----------


## Rise

> Where did I say that?


When you declared your love for Morrison's version where Jason has no goals or hopes of his own except obsessing over what they are doing. His version wasn't dangerous and wasn't even a character, he was used as meta and fodder for Batman and Robin.

Having Batman refusing any connection with Jason just because he has different belief than him just show how small minded and hypocrite he is. They can disgree in their methods, but he has no right to judge when the entire family done their fair share of shady stuff and he himself alomst brought up the end of the world couple of times because of his actions.

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## byrd156

> When you declared your love for Morrison's version where Jason has no goals or hopes of his own except obsessing over what they are doing. His version wasn't dangerous and wasn't even a character, he was used as meta and fodder for Batman and Robin.
> 
> Having Batman refusing any connection with Jason just because he has different belief than him just show how small minded and hypocrite he is. They can disgree in their methods, but he has no right to judge when the entire family done their fair share of shady stuff and he himself alomst brought up the end of the world couple of times because of his actions.


Batman is a hypocrite when he accepts Jason back into the family after killing so many people and if he continues to kill while being a part of the family.

When was the last time you read Morrison's run? Jason's goal was to disprove the "idea" that the batman's mission was all for nothing. That his methods don't work which is an argument that comic fans have all the time. How was he "fodder"? Did they just beat him up in 5 seconds?

Talking about my love for a certain version of a character doesn't negate my other points in the post. Jason right now in the comics is moving closer to a version of that. he is now back on the outside when it comes to Bruce which is where I think Jason should be.

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## JasonTodd428

> That's bad writers, you said so yourself that it's not one-dimensional. I want Jason to work, I don't like to hate characters in comics. I hate very few but sadly the New 52 characterization of Jason is one of them. I think the right writing team can make anything work and its not like this idea is super difficult to pull off.
> 
> Hell Ollie pre-52 would argue and debate literally anyone he could get his hands on when it came to beliefs. You have arguments like that between Jason and Bruce with awesome spectacle fight scenes and it can make for some really great character work for the both of them.


I agree that the right writing team could pull this off with a bit of deftness and nuance and that it would make for some great character work as well as growth for the two of them especially if those imagined writers were to have that lead to a consensus between them down the road.The thing is I really don't want that to be the sole purpose of the book not do I want to see a literal clash between the two of them every issue either mainly because of the aforementioned time when that idea was handled very poorly. I'd prefer a more balanced approach to the concept were they do have their actual clashes but then there are issues that  maybe deal with those differing ideologies in a more figurative sense without the need for a face to face confrontation. I think that  too could lead to some great character work and development for Jason in particular. That's just my two cents worth.

Edit: Regarding your other post I find that to accept Damian into the fold after he's also killed so many more than Jason in all likelihood while he was with the League and he has also killed after making a promise to abide by the Bat's rules while not also accepting Jason into it is likewise hypocritical.

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## Rise

> Batman is a hypocrite when he accepts Jason back into the family after killing so many people and if he continues to kill while being a part of the family.
> 
> When was the last time you read Morrison's run? Jason's goal was to disprove the "idea" that the batman's mission was all for nothing. That his methods don't work which is an argument that comic fans have all the time. How was he "fodder"? Did they just beat him up in 5 seconds?
> 
> Talking about my love for a certain version of a character doesn't negate my other points in the post. Jason right now in the comics is moving closer to a version of that. he is now back on the outside when it comes to Bruce which is where I think Jason should be.


Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".

It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-dimensional" who his version was even less than that. I guess it's ok when it's Jason.

Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accept Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.

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## JasonTodd428

> Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".
> 
> It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-dimensional" who his version was even less than that. I guess it's ok when it's Jason.
> 
> Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accepting Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.


I never could think of Morrison's Jason as anything other then being OOC on the grounds that it's never been his thing to harm innocents while pursuing his war on crime or against the Bats. He may not believe in the same ideals as Batman for dealing with criminals but even so he is still trying to protect innocent people from these scumbags. It's a pretty well established part of his character at this point.

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## byrd156

> Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".
> 
> It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-demotional". I guess it's ok when it's Jason.
> 
> Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accepting Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.


Dick "killing" the Joker doesn't count because he was resuscitated. The whole argument of he was "legally dead" is BS. His heart stopped, if a character dies in a story but is still alive at the end of it it doesn't count. Dick beating someone to near death in a fit of rage is no where near the same thing as casually killing criminals, he immediately showed remorse for what he did and in the end he was fine.

Damian's situation is different, he never had Bruce's rules imposed on him growing up. He was trained to kill by the League, dealing with that indoctrination was a struggle and a very good one I feel. Being Bruce's own flesh and blood while doing the one thing he can't makes for good drama. The main difference between Jason and Damian is that Damian has stopped. It's going to still be hypocritical but then again I'm not the writer. They are focusing on making Damian moving away from that and he has, Jason hasn't.

Jason being a bit of a sociopath comes with the territory of murdering a lot of criminals. It may not be something fans of him don't want to think about but he has to be some level of crazy. Just like anyone who decides to be a hero but a lot more so due to the bodycount. Yeah I just re-read Jason's appearance in Morrison's run and he never killed innocent people. His whole story was basically being a twisted version of Batman (like I said) rebranding the war on crime literally and figuratively. Jason wants to be the perfect son but can't, the trauma from being killed has changed him beyond repair. Fighting crime his way is a him trying in his own sick way to be better for Bruce. He is still the tragic anti-hero, killing is still evil. Anti-heroes do evil things for good reasons.

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## byrd156

> I never could think of Morrison's Jason as anything other then being OOC on the grounds that it's never been his thing to harm innocents while pursuing his war on crime or against the Bats. He may not believe in the same ideals as Batman for dealing with criminals but even so he is still trying to protect innocent people from these scumbags. It's a pretty well established part of his character at this point.


He didn't harm innocents, he was trying to get Gotham on his side by posting the kills and what not. Scarlet was a dick to one innocent guy who's bird got zapped by a villain.

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## Rise

Yeah, the two security guards he killed in issue 3 were totally not "innocent". 

Anti-heroes are willing to do what heroes refuse to do, but never cross the line by killing innocent people. You don't want him as an "anti-hero", you want him as a villain which you have admitted many times (just the other you were talking about how you want DCU to be be just simply good vs bad and how you dislike grey area) so let's not pretend otherwise by redefining the meaning of anti hero to fit your argument.

And I'm not going to bother with "It's doesn't count!!" points.

----------


## KC93

Removed comment

----------


## Godlike13

Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood. He wasn't fodder for Batman and Robin, he was competition. He objective wasn't a personal vendetta. He was trying to compete against the new Batman for Gotham. Trying to offer Gotham an alternative protector. Even the silly suit and sidekick was about branding. It was actually a rather clever take, that i think got lost under ugly art and red hair.

Personally i like that Jason is breaking bad again, but with out a true jumping on point for it and a new voice i feel its already lacking.

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## okiedokiewo

> Damian's situation is different, he never had Bruce's rules imposed on him growing up. He was trained to kill by the League, dealing with that indoctrination was a struggle and a very good one I feel. Being Bruce's own flesh and blood while doing the one thing he can't makes for good drama. The main difference between Jason and Damian is that Damian has stopped. It's going to still be hypocritical but then again I'm not the writer. They are focusing on making Damian moving away from that and he has, Jason hasn't.


Damian has stopped? So you must not be reading what's going on with him lately, I take it.

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## byrd156

> Yeah, the two security guards he killed in issue 3 were totally not "innocent". 
> 
> Anti-heroes are willing to do what heroes refuse to do, but never cross the line by killing innocent people. You don't want him as an "anti-hero", you want him as a villain which you have admitted many times (just the other you were talking about how you want DCU to be be just simply good vs bad and how you dislike grey area) so let's not pretend otherwise by redefining the meaning of anti hero to fit your argument.
> 
> And I'm not going to bother with "It's doesn't count!!" points.


I'm not changing any definitions. And pretending? Characters like the Punisher and Ghost Rider have killed innocent people before on purpose and accident. It comes with the territory of being Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

I never said the DCU should just be good and bad. Are you talking about the Deathstroke thread?

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## Rise

Yeah, it was so "logical" of Winick's take that he had to do some damage control to fix what Morrison has done.

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## byrd156

> Damian has stopped? So you must not be reading what's going on with him lately, I take it.


I haven't been reading Super Sons.

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## Godlike13

No one in the Batfamilty is ok with Damian killing. When he does it, its a point of contention.

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## byrd156

> No one in the Batfamilty is ok with Damian killing. When he does it, its a point of contention.


Right, its not like people are saying good job. You can do it but not Jason.

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## Godlike13

> Yeah, it was so "logical" of Winick's take that he had to do some damage control to fix what Morrison has done.


Ya, because people couldn't get past his ugly look.

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## Rise

> Ya, because people could get past his ugly look.


Typical of you, reducing the argument to just "he wasn't hot that why you hate it!" despite not even once I mentioned his look.

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## Rise

> I'm not changing any definitions. And pretending? Characters like the Punisher and Ghost Rider have killed innocent people before on purpose and accident. It comes with the territory of being Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
> 
> I never said the DCU should just be good and bad. Are you talking about the Deathstroke thread?


No, you just moving goalposts. First you declared with certainty that he never harmed a single innocent soul and now you say "well, others did it too!!". If they killed an innocent soul, they aren't anti heros in the story where they did it and Jason isn't them nor he should be.

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## Godlike13

> Typical of you, reducing the argument to just "he wasn't hot that why you hate it!" despite not even once I mentioned his look.


Thats what Winick's "damage control" was. Fixing his look and making him look pretty and more sympathetic again.

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## byrd156

> No, you just moving goalposts. First you declared with certainty that he never harmed a single innocent soul and now you say "well, others did it too!!". If they killed an innocent soul, they aren't anti heros in the story where they did it and Jason isn't them nor he should be.


I was wrong about the cops, I missed that detail and I am sorry.

To me like you have stated I think Jason works well as villain. Like the thread that recently happened with Deathstroke many people on the threads have different ideas about his morality and ambiguity. Is he a villain or anti-hero? I personally think the line between the two is very thin. I find Jason to be a heroic character that fell from grace and become a more villainous character who tries to do right which is what I think is an anti-hero. Someone who does bad for good reasons.

You brought up my post and said I only believe in black and white. Just a reminder from that post.

*I never said they were black and white. Doctor Doom is one of the greatest villains of all time, he's sympathetic and you can empathize with him all the while he does good and evil things for his own reasons. That's an example of a complex character that fits with what I'm saying. My question isn't meant to be an absolute that there is only objective good and objective evil when it comes to villains. That's just stupid.*

There will always be grey to superheroes. The idea of being a superhero is a grey area, acting outside of the law to apprehend and stop criminals is against the law.

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## Rise

> Thats what Winick's "damage control" was. Fixing his look and making him look pretty and more sympathetic again.


Yeah, let's foucs on how he made him "pretty" because this what all about. I already have the conversation with you two years ago and I already know it's pointless to get in another argument with you. So, lets "agree to disagree".

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## Arsenal

> Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood. He wasn't fodder for Batman and Robin, he was competition. He objective wasn't a personal vendetta. He was trying to compete against the new Batman for Gotham. Trying to offer Gotham an alternative protector. Even the silly suit and sidekick was about branding. It was actually a rather clever take, that i think got lost under ugly art and red hair.
> 
> Personally i like that Jason is breaking bad again, but with out a true jumping on point for it and a new voice i feel its already lacking.


Don’t you think it’s a bit early to say its already lacking when it hasn’t even started yet?

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## G-Potion

Not surprising. Certain people come in this thread and you can expect where it's going for a while. That is, nowhere.

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## Godlike13

> Don’t you think it’s a bit early to say its already lacking when it hasn’t even started yet?


Yes and no. What I meant by lacking is as a big direction change I feel it’s already lacking. They change the direction but leave the same guy at the helm every time. They can change the title and his clothes all they want, but I’m just not interested in Red Hood by Lobdell.

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## Talon1load

Morrison's take on Red Hood was painful to read.  Winnick and Lobdell (with Rebirth) have done way better jobs of writing Jason.

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## JasonTodd428

> Yes and no. What I meant by lacking is as a big direction change I feel its already lacking. They change the direction but leave the same guy at the helm every time. They can change the title and his clothes all they want, but Im just not interested in Red Hood by Lobdell.


Perhaps he's the only writer how is both interested in writing the character and whose pitches keep being of interest to DC.

Personally I've felt Lobdell's been on fire since Rebirth started and that the current book is a million times better than the original insofar as quality is concerned. With the previous book Lobdell lacked a guiding editorial hand who was able to curb some of his tendencies but the Rebirth book has exactly that so it's been a stronger and more coherent run because of it. The current book has also has had consistent art as well as art that compliments the story being told. It also hasn't been plagued with crossovers like the original was. All in all its a better book and frankly I think it's the best Bat book by far no contest. 

I think this new direction will be just a strong if not stronger than what proceeded it and you might miss out on something you might have enjoyed but that's your call to make. I have writers that I avoid as well so I understand the feeling.

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## Aahz

> Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood.


Not really when Winick had him appear in Outsiders, he was completely willing to work with Dick because it was the right thing to do.

He seemed to be pretty much against a the idea of having kids as sidekick in general, so him taking one was also odd. An he never really cared about the public opinion.

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## Zaresh

Just want to mention a few things from a few pages back.

First, at this point, everyone and their mothers knows that Jason was killed by merely 72 votes against him, and that around 300 (out or 10,500) were from the same person who dialed the "dead" number on automatic for eight hours (talk about haters). It's even in Wikipedia with citation notes and all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_..._the_Family%22 . So the truth is, he was meant to live afterwards, and even got a few letters of fans who were really sad for his death issues later, if I recall correctly this info. Having a Robin with Batman that wasn't Dick was quite polemical back in the day, I think. There were even haters of the idea of Robin, even; it wasn't personal on Jason, I would say (as I can tell from this distance in time).

Second, people like Rebirth RHATO. Just go suft the net, look for reviews and forum posts talking about the book. The people who did start reading it, who gave it the chance to be read I mean, are mostly liking it, with his highs and his lows. Saying that people dislike RHATO is wrong, in my opinion (which is an opinion, but I think it's a good one. he he).

Third, how pretty or ugly a character looks depends on the art, mostly. Mostly. And in the eyes who see said art. I cannot see how Morrison or Winnick are responsible of the good or bad looks of Jason in the Dickbats run. I saw it for Damian's weird shape head: that looks like an intended looks from the script. But every other character? I don't see it. It's not a plot point, it doesn't serve any purpose in the story, it's not meaningful in any way that concerns the writing. At most, it's a trick of the artist, who works with tropes, stereotypes and expectations. Usually, the villains are drawn ugly and mature (or extremely beautiful and young if they're not using brutal violence). Same as heroes tend to look pretty, handsome, cute in the case of kids, and rather young (reason why some heroes will never get pass their 40's, or their 30's if they're women). It sucks, and of course, there is exceptions; but usually it's how it is, as far as I've noticed.

Would I know this worm of cans would be open like that, I would have not discussed further in the hopes of keeping the thread chill. But, oh, well, nothing I can do now but posting these bits and hope discussion goes in a different direction. It's probably my last post until the air gets fresher.

----------


## RedBird

Oh God, not this argument for Morrisons psycho Jason again.

Funny how most people in 'favor' of this version never seem to be major fans of the character anyway.

(actually its _almost_ weirdly always the hardcore Dick Grayson stans? Anyone else notice that? Not *all* obviously, if it was all, I'd have to count myself and many others in there otherwise, but a venn diagram could correlate this specific 'opinion' with the major 'DG but not so much RH' fans.)

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## kaimaciel

Whoa! I leave the thread for a day and we get 4 pages! 

Throwing my two cents on Jason under Morrison... I hated it. He was psycho, unsympathetic, obsessed with Bruce and the other Bat Boys to the point of it becoming pathetic. He was a prop for Dick's new role as Batman and a cautionary tale for Tim and Damian. It was painful to read and I hope to never see it again.

And the costume was ugly.

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## G-Potion

It's not your fault @Zaresh. Some people just can't pass up any chance to come here and remind us why they dislike RH, or why RH only appeals to fans of the animated movie and isn't worth DC's further investment blah blah. Nevermind that this is an appreciation thread and they never bother to come here for that purpose.

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## Zaresh

> It's not your fault @Zaresh. Some people just can't pass up any chance to come here and remind us why they dislike RH, or why RH only appeals to fans of the animated movie and isn't worth DC's further investment blah blah. Nevermind that this is an appreciation thread and they never bother to come here for that purpose.


I see. I don't see what they gain with such attitude, but whatever.

And hey, @kaimaciel, I liked that costume! I feel hurt!! Haha, kidding. It was cool in its own. Both versions of that costume, actually. Very fun and stylish. Problem wasn't the costume for me; it was what was wearing it.

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## RedBird

> I hated it. He was psycho, unsympathetic, obsessed with Bruce and the other Bat Boys to the point of it becoming pathetic. He was a prop for Dick's new role as Batman and a cautionary tale for Tim and Damian. It was painful to read and I hope to never see it again.


Couldn't agree more. Nothing but prop. A personal 'Joker' for Dick, a cautionary tale for Tim, and a way to display Damian in a better light, since at the time he was a slowly developing but still divisive character portrayed in this instance as 'not so bad' by comparison to Jason who is _the real_ 'bad robin' of the bunch. And yeah thats on top of the new pathetic obsession with the batboys, the ooc killing of innocent people, the ooc taking on a kid sidekick despite despising and criticizing such a notion previously, the ooc desire for public interest in his persona, boy does the ooc list go on.

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## RedBird

@MyFairYouth


I know its not important in the grand scheme of things but a small part of me wishes we could see a bit of Jason trying to go about his vigilante day whilst keeping his identity under wraps. XD

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## Aioros22

> Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood. He wasn't fodder for Batman and Robin, he was competition. He objective wasn't a personal vendetta. He was trying to compete against the new Batman for Gotham. Trying to offer Gotham an alternative protector. Even the silly suit and sidekick was about branding. It was actually a rather clever take, that i think got lost under ugly art and red hair.
> 
> Personally i like that Jason is breaking bad again, but with out a true jumping on point for it and a new voice i feel its already lacking.


A logical evolution in terms of character theme, I`d say. The character _work_ was merely meta commentary and anything but. Interesting in its own merits but not a fat chance it could work on the long haul as he set it. 

I don`t see what a "true jumping point" - is it? merits a different writer by itself either but tastes are tastes.

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## Aioros22

> Batman is a hypocrite when he accepts Jason back into the family after killing so many people and if he continues to kill while being a part of the family.


That only happens in three timetables: Convergence, New52 and Rebirth. The common thread in all these three is Jason compromising his actions on harsh justice  with Bruce without disregarding that some stories during his psycho phase haven`t been touched or brought back to at all as a whole.  

In the case where it did, in Convergence for instance, it is his partnership with Scarlett that seems to make him more into a hero a priority over vengeance, as it once were. 

In short, there`s _Under the Red Hood_ where Jason had his emotional breakdown after returning and not much else until New52 kicks in. In the same line of thought, the two times he resorted to kill (not touching upon this detail regarding Penguin`s status) he ends up pushing his own exile. There isn`t much hipcocrasy left in the book: Bruce either gives him a second chance because he can and wants Jason back or Jason decides his own fate, unconsciously or not because he doesn`t see himself as one.

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## kaimaciel

> And hey, @kaimaciel, I liked that costume! I feel hurt!! Haha, kidding. It was cool in its own. Both versions of that costume, actually. Very fun and stylish. Problem wasn't the costume for me; it was what was wearing it.


Totally  :Wink:  

 I'm really picky when it comes to costumes, but I respect your opinion  :Smile:

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## byrd156

> It's not your fault @Zaresh. Some people just can't pass up any chance to come here and remind us why they dislike RH, or why RH only appeals to fans of the animated movie and isn't worth DC's further investment blah blah. Nevermind that this is an appreciation thread and they never bother to come here for that purpose.


I enjoy Morrison's version of Jason so I was appreciating him. I only decided to post in here because it seems like DC is heading back into that sort of direction. Not to the same extremes of that version but still a vigilante that kills criminals while not being a part of the bat family doing his own mission. Jason being allowed in Gotham with his methods has never made sense to me and I'm glad DC is finally exploring this.

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## Sergard

> @MyFairYouth
> 
> 
> I know its not important in the grand scheme of things but a small part of me wishes we could see a bit of Jason trying to go about his vigilante day whilst keeping his identity under wraps. XD


Why do I think of Dr. Zoidberg when I see that picture?

Does Jason have a legal identity? I mean, he's still legally dead. And he can't undo that. So it doesn't matter if someone sees his face.
But that makes me wonder if he sometimes feels some kind of regret about the fact that he can't officially be "Jason Todd".
I remember the scene when he and Batman met for the first time and he says "I'm my own man! Me, Jason Todd!".
I think back then Jason would have liked to go to college, to make a career or/and to do some charity work to show the world that the little boy from Crime Alley made it although no one else had believed in him.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I enjoy Morrison's version of Jason so I was appreciating him. I only decided to post in here because it seems like DC is heading back into that sort of direction. Not to the same extremes of that version but still a vigilante that kills criminals while not being a part of the bat family doing his own mission. Jason being allowed in Gotham with his methods has never made sense to me and I'm glad DC is finally exploring this.


You mean the methods where he barely kills anyone and is not any more violent than Bruce? Because in case you didn't notice, since the N52 Jason hasn't been one to jump at killing at the first opportunity. Also, Lobdell and editorial have only said he would be more violent, nowhere has been said he would be killing left and right.

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## G-Potion

> I enjoy Morrison's version of Jason so I was appreciating him. I only decided to post in here because it seems like DC is heading back into that sort of direction. Not to the same extremes of that version but still a vigilante that kills criminals while not being a part of the bat family doing his own mission. Jason being allowed in Gotham with his methods has never made sense to me and I'm glad DC is finally exploring this.


It's how you justify your dislike of Lobdell and his run with misinformation, gross simplification so that you can call it "2 dimensional" and thus inferior to Morrison's version that makes your post laughably biased to me. I don't care if you prefer the latter, it had its own place making up part of the character's journey.

----------


## magpieM

> @MyFairYouth
> 
> 
> I know its not important in the grand scheme of things but a small part of me wishes we could see a bit of Jason trying to go about his vigilante day whilst keeping his identity under wraps. XD


XDDD I love it. His helmet was actually designed to allow him to do such things, but we never saw that in comic




> Why do I think of Dr. Zoidberg when I see that picture?
> 
> Does Jason have a legal identity? I mean, he's still legally dead. And he can't undo that. So it doesn't matter if someone sees his face.
> But that makes me wonder if he sometimes feels some kind of regret about the fact that he can't officially be "Jason Todd".
> I remember the scene when he and Batman met for the first time and he says "I'm my own man! Me, Jason Todd!".
> I think back then Jason would have liked to go to college, to make a career or/and to do some charity work to show the world that the little boy from Crime Alley made it although no one else had believed in him.


Willis is in a similar situation now, being officially dead with a tomb there. Like father like son...

By the way, Willis looks very young with the suit. Maybe the experiment made him look younger? I would imagine him being older than Bruce.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Why do I think of Dr. Zoidberg when I see that picture?
> 
> Does Jason have a legal identity? I mean, he's still legally dead. And he can't undo that. So it doesn't matter if someone sees his face.
> But that makes me wonder if he sometimes feels some kind of regret about the fact that he can't officially be "Jason Todd".
> I remember the scene when he and Batman met for the first time and he says "I'm my own man! Me, Jason Todd!".
> I think back then Jason would have liked to go to college, to make a career or/and to do some charity work to show the world that the little boy from Crime Alley made it although no one else had believed in him.


Well, I don't know about say, Dick or Alfred, but Jason still has at least Artemis and Bizarro. If at least in spirit. The "Dark Trinity" are the black sheep of the Trinity families after all. And function more like a family than a team. In their own way.

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## Zaresh

> XDDD I love it. His helmet was actually designed to allow him to do such things, but we never saw that in comic
> 
> 
> 
> Willis is in a similar situation now, being officially dead with a tomb there. Like father like son...
> 
> By the way, Willis looks very young with the suit. Maybe the experiment made him look younger? I would imagine him being older than Bruce.


Highlander family confirmed! (XD)

----------


## Rise

> By the way, Willis looks very young with the suit. Maybe the experiment made him look younger? I would imagine him being older than Bruce.


I imagine he would be younger than Bruce because it seem he and Catherine had Jason when they were pretty young.

----------


## Sergard

Maybe Willis' body was  cryogenically frozen at some point in the past and what we see are only projections? In issue 25 he stated that he is omnipresent. And in some issue before that we saw him observating Bizarro, Jason and Artemis at the same time but at different places without anybody else noticing him. That seemed pretty ghost-like. Although he seems to be able to touch things.

----------


## Rise

It's seem that Jason is going to show up in Batman sometimes in the future (maybe next year?). King has been implying that in his Twitter for a while now.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's seem that Jason is going to show up in Batman sometimes in the future (maybe next year?). King has been implying that in his Twitter for a while now.


Kinda dreading it. But if he has a role other than comic relief and is part of DC' effort to give him more presence then I'm willing to see where it goes.

Edit: Would you mind providing the links to those tweets? I might have missed them somehow.

----------


## Rise

https://mobile.twitter.com/Primarch_...01625252454401

There's another from last month too when someone asked him about Jason, but sorry, G. Too lazy to try to find it because King tweet a lot.

If it's going to be an issue just about Bruce and Jason, I'm all for it. If it just another small appearance, meh.

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks, *Rise*!  :Smile:

----------


## Rise

> Maybe Willis' body was  cryogenically frozen at some point in the past and what we see are only projections? In issue 25 he stated that he is omnipresent. And in some issue before that we saw him observating Bizarro, Jason and Artemis at the same time but at different places without anybody else noticing him. That seemed pretty ghost-like. Although he seems to be able to touch things.


I hope Lobdell takele his story soon. Him being able to talk to his mother despite being in different universe is pretty impressive.

----------


## RedBird

> I hope Lobdell takele his story soon. Him being able to talk to his mother despite being in different universe is pretty impressive.


Oh right, I didn't think about it before but I guess Ma is in another universe now, in a bottle. Boy is she far from home.

Speaking of, do you guys think this new arc and circumstance for Arty and Biz will pave the way for the 'crime syndicate' story Lobdell claimed he wanted to do months ago, but couldn't at the time find a way to pull off?

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh right, I didn't think about it before but I guess Ma is in another universe now, in a bottle. Boy is she far from home.
> 
> Speaking of, do you guys think this new arc and circumstance for Arty and Biz will pave the way for the 'crime syndicate' story Lobdell claimed he wanted to do months ago, but couldn't at the time find a way to pull off?


I was thinking about that when Arty and Biz's location was revealed. Maybe it could be tweaked so that instead of going undercover as the trinity, Arty and Biz will have to team up with that place's version of Jason?

----------


## Sergard

> I hope Lobdell takele his story soon. Him being able to talk to his mother despite being in different universe is pretty impressive.


But he couldn't maintain the connection. He even acknowledges it by saying "I can't stay long. You are far away from home and even my omnipresence - it seems - has its limits."
And shortly after he "shatters". Logically, Willis should try to contact Jason and tell him that his grandmother is trapped in a bottle that lies somewhere in the dark multiverse.

----------


## Rise

Being able to maintain it or not isn't the point. Him being able to make connection in the first place is what I called impressive. 

I don't think logic have to do with anything because I don't think he is ready to talk to his son yet and might tell him later when the two finally have their confrontation.

----------


## RedBird

> I was thinking about that when Arty and Biz's location was revealed. Maybe it could be tweaked so that instead of going undercover as the trinity, Arty and Biz will have to team up with that place's version of Jason?


Oh I actually like that idea, we can still have interesting interactions with the three of them that way, whilst the main Jason is still doing his lone wolf thing.

Though was the point of the crime syndicate universe to have a world where every one was evil? Or was it that characters would all have moral alignments opposite to their 'original' counterparts? eg; good to evil, evil to good etc...I'm pretty sure it was the latter, and in that case, wouldn't an antihero with a morally grey compass like Red Hood, still be, an anti-hero with a morally grey compass? Can't go one one or the other when you're already on the middle of the spectrum. :P

(Okay okay, maybe CS Jason will be 'meaner' or slighter crueler than OGJay)

----------


## G-Potion

> Though was the point of the crime syndicate universe to have a world where every one was evil? Or was it that characters would all have moral alignments opposite to their 'original' counterparts? eg; good to evil, evil to good etc...I'm pretty sure it was the latter, and in that case, wouldn't an antihero with a morally grey compass like Red Hood, still be, an anti-hero with a morally grey compass? Can't go one one or the other when you're already on the middle of the spectrum. :P


That's the way most alternative versions of Jason should be. Too bad DC doesn't get the memo sometimes. :P

----------


## Jackalope89

Well, they went to a world where that version of the Joker, Lex Luthor, Cheetah, and others are actually the good guys. That's gonna be fun to get used to.

----------


## Sergard

I'm a little bit sad that Arty and Biz aren't in the gender-swap universe. I would like to see male Wonder Woman again - and Artemis' reaction. There was some universe in Countdown where Jason - at least I think it was Jason - was Talon and left Owlman because he was in love with Joker's daughter. Was that the Crime Syndicate universe?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That Talon was Tim's counterpart, not Jason's. And yeah, it was Earth 3.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Oh I actually like that idea, we can still have interesting interactions with the three of them that way, whilst the main Jason is still doing his lone wolf thing.
> 
> Though was the point of the crime syndicate universe to have a world where every one was evil? Or was it that characters would all have moral alignments opposite to their 'original' counterparts? eg; good to evil, evil to good etc...I'm pretty sure it was the latter, and in that case, wouldn't an antihero with a morally grey compass like Red Hood, still be, an anti-hero with a morally grey compass? Can't go one one or the other when you're already on the middle of the spectrum. :P
> 
> (Okay okay, maybe CS Jason will be 'meaner' or slighter crueler than OGJay)


Not really. Because though Jason is far less averse to killing evil people, he (while written in character) would never harm innocent people. Maybe scare them, but not harm them.

I imagine on Earth 3, their Jason would be rather cruel. Or maybe, like how Jason is the black sheep in being more violent, the Jason of Earth 3 could be more of a pacifist/good person. Being the Black Sheep of the Owlman family (so to speak).

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

Jason as Jokers sidekick

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

Jason as Black Masks sidekick

----------


## RedBird

> Not really. Because though Jason is far less averse to killing evil people, he (while written in character) would never harm innocent people. Maybe scare them, but not harm them.
> 
> I imagine on Earth 3, their Jason would be rather cruel. Or maybe, like how Jason is the black sheep in being more violent, the Jason of Earth 3 could be more of a pacifist/good person. Being the Black Sheep of the Owlman family (so to speak).


It would be funny to see the roles reverse and see him be the really _lame_ 'goody two shoes' brother (by comparison) in a family of psychotic villains. :P

----------


## Jackalope89

> It would be funny to see the roles reverse and see him be the really _lame_ 'goody two shoes' brother (by comparison) in a family of psychotic villains. :P


"Hey Owlman! Today, when I crossed the nearly deserted street, I only looked both ways _once_!"

----------


## RedBird

> "Hey Owlman! Today, when I crossed the nearly deserted street, I only looked both ways _once_!"


Not quite the type of 'good' I was picturing but still funny  :Big Grin: 

I totally agree with your 'black sheep' scenario, it would be hilarious since even as (again by comparison) a more morally righteous person he would somehow still be the 'disappointment' of the family. I can imagine Owlman just shaking his head like, where did I go wrong. Why does he have to rebel against this family? XD


Owlman: You all remember your objectives, yes? And no loose threads, so don't leave a single witness behind, I want the entire facility staff slaughtered by the end of tonight. Any objections?

*Jason raises hand

Any objections NOT pertaining to 'sparing lives' which is once again, NOT up for debate??

*Jason lowers hand

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason as Black Masks sidekick


I just want to say. The costume looks so, so good without the bat logo.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/IsItBrokenYet/st...29397629915136
https://twitter.com/marcusto

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/mmhfmmfff

----------


## G-Potion

https://dcjason.postype.com/post/2386237

Dress-up game! You can download the swf file and play.  :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> https://dcjason.postype.com/post/2386237
> 
> Dress-up game! You can download the swf file and play.


I love that it comes even with different eye sets.

----------


## G-Potion

Uhh so apparently this is from RHATO?

----------


## RedBird

> Uhh so apparently this is from RHATO?


Well now I'm just super confused.
When that first image of RH and Canary of his was making rounds I was assuming that it was future work for this DC mobile game (I forget what its called) that I know he makes the art work for, he seems to be the sole artist for the animated cut scenes. I thought perhaps Jason and Dinah were going to be introduced in the game or something.
Cause unless this is like at least 6 months down the track, I don't see how it could be an issue from rhato. :/

----------


## G-Potion

Or this could be unused content from the first RHATO. But I still don't get how it relates to either series.

----------


## RedBird

Anyone else seen the latest 4chan rumors?

_Roy dying is a red herring. It's another Batman #50, where some writers (like Lobdell and the Bensons) don't know what actually happens and are just writing what their editors tell them.

Roy gets injured in a shootout, but he survives. He does lose him arm, though.

Tim Drake arrives on the scene to search for survivors, and gets killed for his effort._ 

Also

_Spoiler joins Red Hood as an Outlaw sidekick. After an arc, Red Hood: Outlaw becomes RHATO again, when Wally gets freed from the Speed Force. Brett Booth takes over art duties._

Sounds like a load of bull to me, BUT, I won't lie, I have definitely had wishes that Jason and Steph could team up one day. Not so much as a sidekick though.

----------


## G-Potion

I do really hope Roy survives but I doubt they'll kill Tim so soon after his fake death.

The Spoiler one just sounds so wrong considering the circumstances and purposes of this arc that we know of.

----------


## RedBird

> I do really hope Roy survives but I doubt they'll kill Tim so soon after his fake death.
> 
> The Spoiler one just sounds so wrong considering the circumstances and purposes of this arc that we know of.


Yeah same, like I said, it's one of those dream teams for me, but I'm not liking the sound of it in the context given.

Not that I think it's real anyways there's still loads more 'theories' as to whats happening to a lot of other characters. In any case, these piles of rumors almost always are all fake, or have like, one or two that turn out to be true that keeps the people who buy into them believing them every time they roll around. A grain of truth in every lie I suppose.

----------


## Arsenal

Maybe Tim “dies” and returns later in the series with the rebrand he desperately needs?

----------


## RedBird

> Maybe Tim “dies” and returns later in the series with the rebrand he desperately needs?


You reckon they'll pull off a new52 Superman sort of thing? New52 Tim dies and the 'old' og Tim returns?

----------


## G-Potion

> Maybe Tim “dies” and returns later in the series with the rebrand he desperately needs?


Does he need to die for it to happen though? I'd think Tec' team disbanded is already the chance for DC to rebrand Tim if they so wish.

----------


## Arsenal

> Does he need to die for it to happen though? I'd think Tec' team disbanded is already the chance for DC to rebrand Tim if they so wish.


No he doesn’t, but for some strange reason somebody has to so it might as well be somebody who can benefit from it.

But since the whole “SOMEBODY IMPORTANT IS GONNA DIE!!!!!” build up is so in our face, I also don’t believe whoever dies is gonna be dead by the time the book is over. 



> You reckon they'll pull off a new52 Superman sort of thing? New52 Tim dies and the 'old' og Tim returns?


More of a fake out death than a real one. Maybe Tim stumbles onto something he shouldn’t of, somebody tries to off him & he uses the opportunity to find out what’s really going on.

----------


## Rise

Whoever making these rumours in 4chan or whatever should pat themselves in the back for being able to fool people every single with very little effort.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Dexter keeps going with his idea of Jason as Batman

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...94102505447424

----------


## Zaresh

> Anyone else seen the latest 4chan rumors?
> 
> [I]Roy dying is a red herring. It's another Batman #50, where some writers (like Lobdell and the Bensons) don't know what actually happens and are just writing what their editors tell them.


Believable.




> Roy gets injured in a shootout, but he survives. He does lose him arm, though.


Possible. If 1 is true; then 2 is believable.
And that way we get closer to post-Crisis status.




> Tim Drake arrives on the scene to search for survivors, and gets killed for his effort.


Why. Just, for what purpose? Unbelievable.




> _Spoiler joins Red Hood as an Outlaw sidekick. After an arc, Red Hood: Outlaw becomes RHATO again, when Wally gets freed from the Speed Force. Brett Booth takes over art duties._
> 
> Sounds like a load of bull to me, BUT, I won't lie, I have definitely had wishes that Jason and Steph could team up one day. Not so much as a sidekick though.


As much as I would die for Wally being teamed with Jason, er... I don't see it. They're going to butt heads. He's also arguably the best friend of Dick (which, again, is a problem, if you want to build Jason's own cast), and then there would be an evil Wally (post-Crisis Wally, who I will call Walter from now on) n the SS working in a similar dynamic and... Nah, I don't buy it. Steph joining Jason too, I am going to guess, because they kill Tim? Errrr.... No, I definitely am not seeing it.

Also, Booth. Er... "Ouch". Not that I dislike his work, but, it would hurt (I am not a fan of his way of lay out panels and whoever coloured his inks in Titans, who I'm guessing will do too here. It only remarks too much every detail, even if the colour itself is quite good; it doesn't help the drawing).

Not going to believe it until I see some kind of proof or trustworthy-yet-mysterious source for confirmation.

----------


## RedBird

> As much as I would die for Wally being teamed with Jason, er... I don't see it. They're going to but heads. He's also arguably the best friend of Dick (which, again, is a problem, if you want to build Jason's own cast), and then there would be an evil Wally (post-Crisis Wally, who I will call Walter from not now) n the SS working in a similar dynamic and... Nah, I don't buy it. Steph joining Jason too, I am going to guess, because they kill Tim? Errrr.... No, I definitely am not seeing it.
> 
> Also, Booth. Er... "Ay". Not that I dislike his work, but, it would hurt (I am not a fan of his way of lay out panels and whoever coloured his inks in Titans, who I'm guessing will do too here. It only remarks too much every detail, even if the colour itself is quite good; it doesn't help the drawing).
> 
> Not going to believe it until I see some kind of proof or trustworthy-yet-mysterious source for confirmation.


It wasn't suggesting that Wally joins Jason. Just an out of context statement about the timeline in which things occur. A different rumor I hadn't posted stated that Wally would get lost in the speedforce. That sentence mentioning him returning was just relative to WHEN rhato would become rhato again, apparently at the same time that Wally escapes. The two sentences have nothing to do with eachother.

----------


## Zaresh

> It wasn't suggesting that Wally joins Jason. Just an out of context statement about the timeline in which things occur. A different rumor I hadn't posted stated that Wally would get lost in the speedforce. That sentence mentioning him returning was just relative to WHEN rhato would become rhato again, apparently at the same time that Wally escapes. The two sentences have nothing to do with eachother.


Mmmm... Booth joining RHATO and the way the spoiler was phrased, I think it's meant to imply that Rebirth Wally joins the team after he gets out of the SF.




> >Spoiler joins Red Hood as an Outlaw sidekick. After an arc, Red Hood: Outlaw becomes RHATO again, when Wally gets freed from the Speed Force. Brett Booth takes over art duties.


Why mentioning Wally coming back when Steph joins RHATO if they're not related directly, and how it could be related if not because Wally is joining too? I don't know, for me, when I read it yesterday, it all sounded like that. But it's very ambiguous so, I don't know. I am probably getting it wrong and you're right.

Still, it reeks like bullshit.

I cannot say the same about the ones with Nightwing after today's news. And Dick fans may hate it, but I think that could be cool as a 12 issues story arc. But it's probably noise too, and that injury is whatever related to, I dunno, vertigo or something. There were a lot of rumours yesterday, about a lot of things, now that I think about it.

----------


## RedBird

Thing is, if in fact the op was phrasing it that way and was suggesting that Wally joins, that makes this already fake as hell rumour sound like even more bull cr*p.

----------


## Zaresh

> Thing is, if in fact the op was phrasing it that way and was suggesting that Wally joins, that makes this already fake as hell rumour sound like even more bull cr*p.


Yep, I totally agree.

----------


## Sergard

Nothing can top the "ghost Roy" rumor.
The thing about Dick getting shot in the head and having amnesia made me laugh. At least Dick is in good company. Jason and Bruce had had amnesia in the past. And what's with people getting shot in the head and surviving?

----------


## Arsenal

So Wally gets stuck in the speedforce for 5 years until he finally breaks out. Than he hangs around  around until he gets stuck in it once again only to break back out of it.

----------


## Zaresh

> *Nothing can top the "ghost Roy" rumor.*
> The thing about Dick getting shot in the head and having amnesia made me laugh. At least Dick is in good company. Jason and Bruce had had amnesia in the past. And what's with people being shot in the head and surviving?


I remember that. It was hilarious.

I dunno. I can think of a few storylines that could work well for Dick with amnesia. I still like the rumour about vertigo more, but I did come up with a plot for it that could be interesting. It's not really that boring as a plot, with the context that we know he will have. Hard to buy, tho, because that same context.

----------


## Zaresh

> So Wally gets stuck in the speedforce for 5 years until he finally breaks out. Than he hangs around  around until he gets stuck in it once again only to break back out of it.


This would be actually the second time after coming back that he gets stuck in the SF. It happened in Titans for like two issues if I recall correctly. He also has died twice since them.

And he got cool stop time powers that he lost.

It's a mess.

----------


## Jackalope89

So the rumor is that they're going to retread not only Wally being stuck in the Speed Force, but also killing Tim?

And not crazy about Steph joining the Outlaws, at least not until we know Bizarro and Artemis are back too.

----------


## Arsenal

> This would be actually the second time after coming back that he gets stuck in the SF. It happened in Titans for like two issues if I recall correctly. He also has died twice since them.
> 
> And he got cool stop time powers that he lost.
> 
> It's a mess.


That’s right. Completely forgot about that.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Anyone else seen the latest 4chan rumors?
> 
> [I]Roy dying is a red herring. It's another Batman #50, where some writers (like Lobdell and the Bensons) don't know what actually happens and are just writing what their editors tell them.


After the nonsense with Batman #50 I wouldn't put it passed DC's PR machine to hype up the death of a major character in HiC just to get people to buy it. (There may actually be some truth or at least plausibility to this particular bit. In other words so there's the grain of "truth" they use to hook people into believing these rumors are facts instead of idle fan speculation.)




> Roy gets injured in a shootout, but he survives. He does lose him arm, though.


Again the first part of this is very plausible as I'm sure Roy has been shot lots of times in the past but the second part seems more like fan speculation than anything else. Probably a fan that wants Roy to go back down the same well worn path again so that he's once again "familiar" and is back to his Pre-FP self again. (Ungh...just no.) 




> Tim Drake arrives on the scene to search for survivors, and gets killed for his effort.


And again I do believe its plausible that Tim would show up to look for survivors. He is, after all, a hero and that is what they do. I don't believe he will get killed though. He's already "died" once in recent memory so it would a dumb move to do that again so soon. Again I think this latter part is purely speculation on the fan's part. They probably are hoping that he is killed ("for reals" this time) so that maybe DC will clean slate him and start over with a Tim Drake closer to the Pre-FP or earlier version that they like better. 




> [I]Spoiler joins Red Hood as an Outlaw sidekick.


I don't believe this one for a minute. This one is nothing but speculation and makes no sense in the scheme of things. Why would Spoiler even join Jason? 




> After an arc, Red Hood: Outlaw becomes RHATO again, when Wally gets freed from the Speed Force. Brett Booth takes over art duties.


This last bit sounds like three unrelated things and because of that I can't take it seriously at all. I am relatively sure that at some point RH:O will become RHATO again unless the loner direction for some reason sticks so point for plausibility again but I've no idea how Wally being stuck in the SF is connected unless he somehow is able to pull Artemis and Biz from the Dark Mulitverse when he escapes. Of course first he actually has be be trapped in the SF for this to even happen at all and since he's not as yet trapped there again I'm not sure how plausible this is. 

As for Booth getting art duties on what I assume would be RHATO after it goes back to that name I really hope that is indeed idle speculation as I can't stand his art like at all. Too much same face for my tastes and if he's taking over art duties I would have to stop reading it because his art just throws me out of the story every time. He has a nasty habit of people on team members look exactly like every other team member he's ever drawn. For example all the characters in his Titans run look surprisingly like all the characters in his N52 Teen Titans run only with different hair colors and costumes. And all his woman characters seem to have very curly hair that always seems to move in the same unnatural way. All in all it would be a massive downgrade to most of the other artists we've had on the book in my opinion.

----------


## RedBird

@mmhfmmfff



shoucolate



_'Hey! It’s my neighbor Bizarro !!'_

@Eskimosheep

----------


## RedBird

Anyone read DC nation #4?

Seems it wasn't just an impression that us fans were getting, DC _really is_ co-coordinating a 'break up' or rift between the batfamily.

_'Batman and his once-unified group of crime fighting partners are losing their greatest strength: Each other.'_

dk.jpg

dk2.JPG

Not that this says anything we don't really know, but just in case yall wanted a close up to read it.

DK3.JPG

(Once again, kinda depressing to see Tim missing. Though I guess if he lives through HIC, I'll count my blessings.)

----------


## Arsenal

Wonder what batfam related gut punch is coming in Batman #75. Civil War: Batfam edition?

----------


## kaimaciel

> Wonder what batfam related gut punch is coming in Batman #75. Civil War: Batfam edition?


As long as it isn't "Battle for the Cowl" I'll be satisfied. Bruce really needs to learn to value his family and take responsibility for his actions. I would love to see him beg each of them for forgiveness.

----------


## Sergard

Another page of DC Nation 4:
It really does look bad for Roy. Even DC admits it. Please let it be a red herring.

----------


## G-Potion

Snagged this from *@kaimaciel*  tumblr.

http://kaimaciel.tumblr.com/post/177766319994



Of course, DC. Of course.

----------


## G-Potion

> Another page of DC Nation 4:
> It really does look bad for Roy. Even DC admits it. Please let it be a red herring.


Roy is the least powerful character in this list? I guess they do count plot armor.

----------


## RedBird

> Snagged this from *@kaimaciel*  tumblr.


The same user two posts above you right?

Also, of course. Between the breaking of the family and the possible death of beloved characters, why not add this kick in the nuts too.

----------


## G-Potion

> _'Hey! Its my neighbor Bizarro !!'_


Ha! I love this! Petulant Jason and Cranky Artemis is my favorite dynamic.

----------


## G-Potion

@RedBird: Yep! Hope Kai doesn't mind.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Rise

> Snagged this from *@kaimaciel*  tumblr.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, DC. Of course.


Can't say I'm bothered with this if I'm being honest. 




> Anyone read DC nation #4?
> 
> Seems it wasn't just an impression that us fans were getting, DC _really is_ co-coordinating a 'break up' or rift between the batfamily.
> 
> _'Batman and his once-unified group of crime fighting partners are losing their greatest strength: Each other.'_
> 
> Attachment 70380
> 
> Attachment 70381


Huh, wonder what they are planning for issue 75.

And all of this seem like a part of bigger story doesn't surprise me. Both Red Hood and Batgirl new directions interest me. Not really sure yet about Batman and Catwoman.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Snagged this from *@kaimaciel*  tumblr.
> 
> http://kaimaciel.tumblr.com/post/177766319994
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, DC. Of course.


Don't forget the  "he indoctrinated other traumatized men, women and children into a paramilitary force masquerading as costumed street vigilantes"

WTF King!?

----------


## RedBird

> Roy is the least powerful character in this list? I guess they do count plot armor.


Well when you look at the human characters, between super duper genies Tim and considering Harley can apparently take on_ the trinity_ I guess Roy is weakest. 

Speaking of Harley, I feel like DC should stop beating around the bush already and just make the goddamn Deadpool vs Marvel univ.....er I mean, Harley vs DC universe book that I know they want to. They had something similar with the 'Harleys black book' series but I think this might sell even better, a major Harley Quinn book with countless cameos of the best and iconic dc characters, plus tons of action, it'll be a goldmine for em.

----------


## Rise

> Don't forget the  "he indoctrinated other traumatized men, women and children into a paramilitary force masquerading as costumed street vigilantes"
> 
> WTF King!?


I don't get it. What's so bad about this? It's true.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well when you look at the human characters, between super duper genies Tim and considering Harley can apparently take on_ the trinity_ I guess Roy is weakest. 
> 
> Speaking of Harley, I feel like DC should stop beating around the bush already and just make the goddamn Deadpool vs Marvel univ.....er I mean, Harley vs DC universe book that I know they want to. They had something similar with the 'Harleys black book' series but I think this might sell even better, a major Harley Quinn book with countless cameos of the best and iconic dc characters, plus tons of action, it'll be a goldmine for em.


I don't really want to dislike her more than I already have.  :Frown:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't get it. What's so bad about this? It's true.


No is not. Bruce always gives them a choice. To not mention that this completely destroys the notion of being actual bonding between the members of the Bat-family. Something really concerning coming from the Batman writer.

----------


## RedBird

> I don't really want to dislike her more than I already have.


Neither do I, but this feels like the next logical step in Harley evolution to finally becoming the Deadpool of DC, and let's be real, when it comes to being nothing more than a twiggy human being that's _somehow_ still able to overpower and outwit even the most powerful and competent of heroes on a regular basis. Joker got there first.

----------


## Rise

> No is not. Bruce always gives them a choice. To not mention that this completely destroys the notion of being actual bonding between the members of the Bat-family. Something really concerning coming from the Batman writer.


?

It didn't say he forced them to be vigilantes (though, Jason's case is pretty messed up if we think too deeply about it), it say he tought bunch of men, women and children how to fight and made a set of rules they had too follow which is true.

----------


## G-Potion

> The same user two posts above you right?
> 
> Also, of course. Between the breaking of the family and the possible death of beloved characters, why not add this kick in the nuts too.


Ah well turned out I'm more annoyed with this than usual that I tweeted DC about it.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Ah well turned out I'm more annoyed with this than usual that I tweeted DC about it.


It is annoying, and I'm sick of it. 

And since we go through this every so often, they've proven they don't care that people complain about it.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Snagged this from *@kaimaciel*  tumblr.
> 
> http://kaimaciel.tumblr.com/post/177766319994
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, DC. Of course.


Go ahead, G! Share away  :Smile: 

Seriously, DC... Why do you keep doing this? And, oh boy! People are mad about the psychological profiles. Especially Booster Gold. Poser Syndrome? What...? 

I gotta admit, as General Practice Intern, these fake psych profiles are fascinating. It's like watching a fanfic writer trying to write a doctor's report. I'll give them that.

----------


## G-Potion

Haha yeah I thought you'd at least get some laugh from them.

----------


## Zaresh

> Go ahead, G! Share away 
> 
> Seriously, DC... Why do you keep doing this? And, oh boy! People are mad about the psychological profiles. Especially Booster Gold. Poser Syndrome? What...? 
> 
> I gotta admit, as General Practice Intern, these fake psych profiles are fascinating. It's like watching a fanfic writer trying to write a doctor's report. I'll give them that.


[Off topic]

I'm not even remotely informed about how these reports are done, and I feel like they try too hard to sound deep, and they sound artsy. But, eh, I'm not offended by it.

Now then, I usually am offended by how libraries and librarians are shown in fiction. It never not annoys me. And I am also a historian and I know how archaeologists really work, and don't even get mad, ever, about it. Because fuck yeah, Indiana Jones. But, libraries... Man, do fictional libraries and librarians usually make me crazy angry (and not in a fun way. But, hey, you can have fun at me being mad! xD).
[/Off topic]

----------


## Jackalope89

Anyways, back to Jason. Back from the beginning of the Rebirth run.

----------


## G-Potion

> [Off topic]
> Now then, I usually am offended by how libraries and librarians are shown in fiction. It never not annoys me. 
> [/Off topic]


Out of curiosity, how are they in fiction?  :EEK!: 

(Sorry I derail the thread again.)

----------


## Zaresh

> Out of curiosity, how are they in fiction? 
> 
> (Sorry I derail the thread again.)


Usually? Dark, chaotic labyrinths that are very, very dirty. Same for the Archives. A pile of books (or documents) without an aim, a collection of books that are there just to be kept and unused; just preserved. Which is the antithesis of what a modern library should be. They should be there to provide information to their users, updated information, in organized and easy to navigate, clean, open and well illuminated spaces that also can serve for other purposes (like relaxing yourself reading a newspaper, or playing your NDS with headphones, or whatever).

And librarians? Unfriendly people who like to play the mysterious all-known intellectuals that behave like they're all above all, or either oddballs who are savant geniuses hard to follow and absolutely crazy. But see, librarians are expected to be more than anything an aid to the users of the library, who, over all, help them locate what they need, where the info they would like to find is (sometimes that info isn't even in that library, and the librarian has to lead the user to outsider collections), or even figuring out what info they actually need (sometimes we all need help focusing out research into certain topics). Because all that information in all those books, journals, videos, etc. have to be feed, and all those items (books, etc) are meant to be used. Besides, not even the best librarian in the world could know everything that is inside those books, or is a multidisciplinary expert who knows better than anyone.

I mean, there are lots of good portrayals of libraries and librarians in fiction, but, eh, each time I came across one of these not good ones (and there are a lot too. Maybe not as many; I take back my words: it's not "usually"), I end up a bit mad.

(Don't be sorry, @G-Pots. This is an interesting off topic  :Stick Out Tongue:   :Cool: )

Soooo, back to Jason and the batfam, and DC Nation #4. If this is indeed an intended isolation of its members, does that mean that we will not get any kind of apparition in the next months? I was expecting for someone of the family to show up in #27, honestly.

----------


## G-Potion

And there's Inky's take on the new costume.

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/177...ason-todd-also

----------


## kaimaciel

> And there's Inky's take on the new costume.
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/177...ason-todd-also


Inky makes everything awesome!

----------


## Arsenal

> Usually? Dark, chaotic labyrinths that are very, very dirty. Same for the Archives. A pile of books (or documents) without an aim, a collection of books that are there just to be kept and unused; just preserved. Which is the antithesis of what a modern library should be. They should be there to provide information to their users, updated information, in organized and easy to navigate, clean, open and well illuminated spaces that also can serve for other purposes (like relaxing yourself reading a newspaper, or playing your NDS with headphones, or whatever).
> 
> And librarians? Unfriendly people who like to play the mysterious all-known intellectuals that behave like they're all above all, or either oddballs who are savant geniuses hard to follow and absolutely crazy. But see, librarians are expected to be more than anything an aid to the users of the library, who, over all, help them locate what they need, where the info they would like to find is (sometimes that info isn't even in that library, and the librarian has to lead the user to outsider collections), or even figuring out what info they actually need (sometimes we all need help focusing out research into certain topics). Because all that information in all those books, journals, videos, etc. have to be feed, and all those items (books, etc) are meant to be used. Besides, not even the best librarian in the world could know everything that is inside those books, or is a multidisciplinary expert who knows better than anyone.
> 
> I mean, there are lots of good portrayals of libraries and librarians in fiction, but, eh, each time I came across one of these not good ones (and there are a lot too. Maybe not as many; I take back my words: it's not "usually"), I end up a bit mad.
> 
> (Don't be sorry, @G-Pots. This is an interesting off topic  )
> 
> Soooo, back to Jason and the batfam, and DC Nation #4. If this is indeed an intended isolation of its members, does that mean that we will not get any kind of apparition in the next months? I was expecting for someone of the family to show up in #27, honestly.


It could be that the batfam isn’t necessarily breaking up completely, just breaking up with Bruce. So it’s possible we’ll see them interact with each other, just not with him.

----------


## adrikito

CONGRATULATIONS for the 900th page Jason.

red hood Jason birthday artemis bizarro.jpg

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason just got back from Batman Ninja in this one;

----------


## adrikito

> Jason just got back from Batman Ninja in this one;


HAHAHA.. I  am not surprised about Artemis&Bizarro reaction... I reacted like them.

----------


## TheCape

Finally i read the last 2 issues of Red Hood and the Outlaws, they were pretty good, didn't expect that Jason would actually kill Oswald but it happened (he is probably in a coma instead or death to be honest), the reunion and godbye of the new Outlaws was great (the kiss was nice too  :Embarrassment: ), you can really feel the lost of Jason here. Bruce was brutal in this issue, his behavior was just crappy here, but i can't say that i'm surprised is how he has been for the last 2 decades about killing, not sure how Lodbell is going to pacth this relationship (i also want to see Dick and Tim reaction to this), didn't expect the reveal about Ma Gunn, to be honest i don't know what to feel about it, hopefully Scott delivers because rigth now i'm not seeing much potential in the change.

----------


## Jackalope89

Speaking of the Ma Gunn bit; I saw some people trying to ship Jason with Faye Gunn the younger when she popped up.

Somehow, I don't think that's gonna go anywhere with the reveal.

----------


## magpieM

> Speaking of the Ma Gunn bit; I saw some people trying to ship Jason with Faye Gunn the younger when she popped up.
> 
> Somehow, I don't think that's gonna go anywhere with the reveal.


Well, no one could have predicted the Ma Gunn twist after all... I still don't know what I think about it. I'm wondering if it's just a clue to imply that they are related, or Lobdell would have more story to tell about Willis' parents, or future stories about Jason and Faye Gunn Jr would 'mirror' something in the past in their family.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well, no one could have predicted the Ma Gunn twist after all... I still don't know what I think about it. I'm wondering if it's just a clue to imply that they are related, or Lobdell would have more story to tell about Willis' parents, or future stories about Jason and Faye Gunn Jr would 'mirror' something in the past in their family.


Well, I just found it funny people tried to do that for a character that they literally knew nothing about and only popped up for a few panels.

----------


## Rise

I'm also curious about why he made that twist. I don't think it's random and he seem to have a plan for it which I hope we see soon.

I do like that he is exploring Jason's family (which add a lot of depth to him) and l hope he handle it well.

----------


## RedBird

I'm curious too, perhaps it will factor into a redemptive moment for Biz during whatever adventure he and Artemis get into? By all accounts the bottle should be with them in the dark universe and after all he was the one that stuffed the poor woman in a bottle to live in Purgatory, maybe it's fitting he try to make things right by his friend?

Still have no idea how it's gonna affect Jason or if the connection between them will ever be revealed.

We've never seen extended Family members when it comes to Jason before so this is all kinda new, but even if nothing comes out of it within the narrative, I can at least find some humor in the fact that, of course, what else would you expect the Grandmother of the gun toting 'fierce' and 'brutal' Red Hood to be like, other than this XD

----------


## G-Potion

Now I can't unsee the mental image of an old Jason acting exactly like this. Cigarettes and all.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Now I can't unsee the mental image of an old Jason acting exactly like this. Cigarettes and all.


"Kids these days ain't half the vigilante/antihero we were! Now get off my lawn, Mar'i!"

----------


## G-Potion

> "Kids these days ain't half the vigilante/antihero we were! Now get off my lawn, Mar'i!"


Haha yeah, like that.  :Cool:

----------


## RedBird

Man rereading rhato right now and it honestly hurts. I mean, I already felt that Bruces words to Jason were inexcusably _brutal_, but seeing the contrast and callback to this moment, and Bruce taking back something that clearly meant so much to Jason is _painful._




_
This was something I'd never had before in my life. 
People who believed in me._





_I was a fool for ever believing in you._

----------


## Sergard

As a side note: Ma Gunn and her granddaughter aren't the only Gunn's at the moment that are currently presented in the DC universe. There is a "Gunn" in "Silencer" who is one of the underbosses of Leviathan.
For a second I thought that could be one of Ma Gunn's sons. But that's very, very unlikely.

And wiki says that Ma Gunn is Australian (at least in old continuity). So I request that Jason does not only get a pet penguin but also a pet kangaroo or pet wombat.  :Smile:

----------


## Rise

Huh, things are sure looking more and more interesting. 

If Gunn you are talking about is connected to Ma Gunn, then maybe there's a plan for more members of Jason's family showing up and they have something to do with Underlife. 

I'm now more curious about what kind of man the grandfather was (is?) who Jason was named after. It might be not random that Lobdell revealed this particular info after all.

----------


## Zaresh

> Huh, things are sure looking more and more interesting. 
> 
> If Gunn you are talking about is connected to Ma Gunn, then maybe there's a plan for more members of Jason's family showing up and they have something to do with Underlife. 
> 
> I'm now more curious about what kind of man the grandfather was (is?) who Jason was named after. It might be not random that Lobdell revealed this particular info after all.


It's funny, all these conections with Silencer. I wonder if both writers worked something togheter that got a green from editorial. If I recall correctly, The Silencer has been promo'd in RHATO twice already (which can mean nothing; it's a new series by Abnett and JrJr, it's big enough to be promoted everywhere,  which I guess it's the case).

----------


## Sergard

> Huh, things are sure looking more and more interesting. 
> 
> If Gunn you are talking about is connected to Ma Gunn, then maybe there's a plan for more members of Jason's family showing up and they have something to do with Underlife. 
> 
> I'm now more curious about what kind of man the grandfather was (is?) who Jason was named after. It might be not random that Lobdell revealed this particular info after all.


If someone is curious, that's the wiki page of Gunn.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Gunn_(Prime_Earth)
Not really much information but the character is pretty new. And at least there is a picture of him. No resemblance to Ma Gunn or Willis. The only association is the name. So as long as someone doesn't tell me that Scott Lobdell and Dan Abnett are best buddies that's probably coincidence. But it's still fun to speculate.

I'm curious about the grandfather too - and about Jason's other grandparents (and when speaking about family I also want to see Suzie Su's father. I think he never had an appearance, or?)
Willis seems to think highly of his father- which makes me believe that he wasn't a "bad" guy. On the other hand he was married to Ma Gunn. And Ma Gunn wasn't really a saint in the past. In RHatO 1 it's mentioned that she knew Black Mask's father and Black Mask since he was "running around in diapers" (I try to imagine Black Mask as a baby  :Smile:  ). So it's possible that she even had ties to the False Face Society.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Personally, I hope this leads to nothing because putting everything together it leads uncomfortably close to "Jason becomes evil, takes over Leviathan and wages war against the DCU"

----------


## Jackalope89

> Personally, I hope this leads to nothing because putting everything together it leads uncomfortably close to "Jason becomes evil, takes over Leviathan and wages war against the DCU"


Considering Ma Gunn became firmly on the Outlaws side during Rebirth, and Solitaire encouraging the Outlaws in his own way, I don't see Jason going evil. Unless its to take down Leviathan (or a similar group) from within.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/toi139

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/toi139


Pretty.

Hmmm... I have to finish mine. I feel guilty for not having it done already.

----------


## adrikito

From Damian appreciation, Jason new look fanart:




> There can only be one Hoodie in the family Todd


He has white hair again? Or only in this fanart?

----------


## Zaresh

> From Damian appreciation, Jason new look fanart:
> 
> 
> 
> He has white hair again? Or only in this fanart?


Fanart. Actually, he will get a buzz cut with no trace of white streak at all, as far as we know.
https://www.cbr.com/jason-todd-red-h...e-emblem-mask/

But like with everything, I guess you can never rule out that it will happen anytime in the far future.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Fanart. Actually, he will get a buzz cut with no trace of white streak at all, as far as we know.
> https://www.cbr.com/jason-todd-red-h...e-emblem-mask/
> 
> But like with everything, I guess you can never rule out that it will happen anytime in the far future.


Well, one can imagine that Bruce is still looking for him. With or without the helmet. So a change in wardrobe is due, as well as his physical looks.

And, is it just me, or does he look bulkier than most of that Bat Family? Like where Dick is more lean muscle, Jason looks more brawn.

----------


## adrikito

> Fanart. Actually, he will get a buzz cut with no trace of white streak at all, as far as we know.
> https://www.cbr.com/jason-todd-red-h...e-emblem-mask/
> 
> But like with everything, I guess you can never rule out that it will happen anytime in the far future.


You are right, I forgot that... 

Maybe because I am not interested in continue with this comic after change everything in Jason life, no companions, is more violent, change of look..

----------


## Zaresh

> Well, one can imagine that Bruce is still looking for him. With or without the helmet. So a change in wardrobe is due, as well as his physical looks.
> 
> And, is it just me, or does he look bulkier than most of that Bat Family? Like where Dick is more lean muscle, Jason looks more brawn.


As far as I know, he's the most heavy of the ex-robins, but he's also the tallest. So he's more bulky than Dick, but not as much as Bruce, by a lot (he's not a brick of meat). This artist draws a bit on the bulky side (or so I've read), so the blame is a lot in his style I guess.

----------


## RedBird

wellbee

This artist has designs of other bat characters as well if anyone wants to check out the link. Too many to post though. :P

[img]https://cdna.**********.com/p/assets/images/images/012/327/540/large/well-bee-redhood.jpg?1534234957[/img]

_JASON: YEAR 2018
Project Gotham_

----------


## G-Potion

http://j2ksa.tumblr.com/post/173602058921

----------


## Aahz

> As far as I know, he's the most heavy of the ex-robins, but he's also the tallest. So he's more bulky than Dick, but not as much as Bruce, by a lot (he's not a brick of meat). This artist draws a bit on the bulky side (or so I've read), so the blame is a lot in his style I guess.


If you go by the DC Encyclopedia Jason would actually be even bulkier than Bruce.

----------


## LP22

i really hope that Jay won't be alone for long he needs people around him so he wont shoot anybody LOL

----------


## Sergard

> i really hope that Jay won't be alone for long he needs people around him so he wont shoot anybody LOL


He already has a bus driver and a FBI agent by his side. :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

It would be nice to surround himself with normal folks for a change.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It would be nice to surround himself with normal folks for a change.


A Bat Fam member? With normal people? Since when.

----------


## Zaresh

> If you go by the DC Encyclopedia Jason would actually be even bulkier than Bruce.



I guess? But honestly, I don't see it. Never, or as I can recall, he has been drawn like that.




> It would be nice to surround himself with normal folks for a change.


It has worked for heroes with similar profiles. They kind of stand with a foot on earth, with characters that have very different priorities in their life and see things differently. It also helps in giving something, or someone, who can become a motivation, a danger or a conflict for street level heroes. And these common-people supporting characters help in highlighting their flaws and virtues. I mean, unless you want to make your heroes unstoppable, uncaring and always morally right.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I guess? But honestly, I don't see it. Never, or as I can recall, he has been drawn like that.
> 
> 
> 
> It has worked for heroes with similar profiles. They kind of stand with a foot on earth, with characters that have very different priorities in their life and see things differently. It also helps in giving something, or someone, who can become a motivation, a danger or a conflict for street level heroes. And these common-people supporting characters help in highlighting their flaws and virtues. I mean, unless you want to make your heroes unstoppable, uncaring and always morally right.


Just looked it up myself. Jason has about 10lbs on Bruce, where Bruce has 2 inches on Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> Just looked it up myself. Jason has about 10lbs on Bruce, where Bruce has 2 inches on Jason.


So how much is that? I am in no position to discuss anything regarding metrics I cannot understand for my life (well, I do know how much is 2 inches). How many kg for cm are those? And is it much for a guy (because I don't know how measuring height versus weight works for men)?

In any case, I would stick to what most artists draw, honestly, because that's what sticks in the long run. And in the art, Jason is often drawn shorter than Bruce, and noticeable lighter (but still heavy. Because Bruce is almost as big as Clark, what's with the heroic canon and all that. But now that I think about it, he's being drawn a bit lighter in recent times, maybe? So maybe they're the same?).

----------


## Jackalope89

> So how much is that? I am in no position to discuss anything regarding metrics I cannot understand for my life. How many kg for cm are those? And is it much for a guy (because I don't know how measuring height versus weight works for men)?
> 
> In any case, I would stick to what most artists draw, honestly, because that's what sticks in the long run. And in the art, Jason is often drawn shorter than Bruce, and noticeable lighter (but still heavy. Because Bruce is almost as big as Clark, what's with the heroic canon and all that. But now that I think about it, he's being drawn a bit lighter in recent times, maybe? So maybe they're the same?).


Jason is about 102 kg and Bruce is about 95kg. For height, 182cm for Jason and Bruce is just short of 188cm.

Average height for men is about 5 feet 9 inches (176cm) and weight is far more variable.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason is about 102 kg and Bruce is about 95kg. For height, 182cm for Jason and Bruce is just short of 188cm.
> 
> Average height for men is about 5 feet 9 inches (176cm) and weight is far more variable.


Huh, funny. That's a noticeable difference.

----------


## G-Potion

> It has worked for heroes with similar profiles. They kind of stand with a foot on earth, with characters that have very different priorities in their life and see things differently. It also helps in giving something, or someone, who can become a motivation, a danger or a conflict for street level heroes. And these common-people supporting characters help in highlighting their flaws and virtues. I mean, unless you want to make your heroes unstoppable, uncaring and always morally right.


Yeah. I like how in his Injustice's ending, RH stays out of the conflict and stands for the people instead. And as Jason pointed out in one issue, the fortress with all its tech makes him uncomfortable because he feels like he's taken away from his root and his purpose, which the art heavily implies to be the miserable people of Gotham.

----------


## Aahz

> I guess? But honestly, I don't see it. Never, or as I can recall, he has been drawn like that.


How he is drawn is anyway not that consistent, during the new 52 he was sometimes drawn shorter than Dick and in one case (iirc during the Robin Rises arc) shorter than Tim.

And in lst appearance pre flashpoint (the issue where he was in Blackgate) he was much bulkier than Rocafort drew him.

----------


## Zaresh

> How he is drawn is anyway not that consistent, during the new 52 he was sometimes drawn shorter than Dick and in one case (iirc during the Robin Rises arc) shorter than Tim.
> 
> And in lst appearance pre flashpoint (the issue where he was in Blackgate) he was much bulkier than Rocafort drew him.


Redhead Jason in that time was huge. Yeah, he was even bigger than Bruce. You're right.

But usually, when draw with Bruce at his side, he isn't. That's what I meant. I cannot recall many instances in which he was bigger other than those pre-FP and fake Jason from Hush. And atl-universe stuff . At most, he is drawn like Bruce. He was less big (but still big) in UtH, in those brief apparitions in the outsiders and green arrow, in countdown, in BftC and the times he showed up around that time, and I may be remembering wrong, but also post-FP Batman Inc. and that N52 Deathstroke story arc I confess I read out of curiosity but full of shame (because I thiink it was bad, or maybe not really my cup of tea at all). He was big in some issues in B&RE, iirc, but the art in those few issues also drew him like he was 45, so... I think since N52, he has often been more slender than before (at least as far as I recall, again), which fits for a more heroic young image (Apollo type versus Hercules type). Still bigger than any other Robin I guess, and that's funny, because Dick should probably be quite big in his upper body too, now that I think about it. But, eh, not that anyone is going to give it that much of a thought  not without reason (because who really cares). I'm thinking about artstyle too, because every artist has their own base boby type when they draw your given heroes.

----------


## Sergard

I wouldn't give too much thought to the weight stuff. Some of this data seems to be old/carried over from Pre-New52 (Back then, Tim Drake was under 60 kg, and no one would assume that now). The huge muscle mass fitted back then because Jason was very territorial. His figure was intimidating and his strength was good for attack and defense on a street fighter level. Now he is also a globetrotter who was trained by assassin monks. He may have lost some pounds but has gained agility. Nowadays, I think Jason and Dick are closer in weight but have different body types (inverted triangle and all that stuff).

----------


## Aahz

> I wouldn't give too much thought to the weight stuff. Some of this data seems to be old/carried over from Pre-New52 (Back then, Tim Drake was under 60 kg, and no one would assume that now). The huge muscle mass fitted back then because Jason was very territorial. His figure was intimidating and his strength was good for attack and defense on a street fighter level. Now he is also a globetrotter who was trained by assassin monks. He may have lost some pounds but has gained agility. Nowadays, I think Jason and Dick are closer in weight but have different body types (inverted triangle and all that stuff).


I think that depends more on the Artist than the continuity.
Medri's and Soy's drew Jason bulkier than Rocafort,  and  Woods draws him really bulky.
Tim's hight also varies a lot in between differnt artists, sometimes he is almost as big as Dick and Jason, sometimes he is really tiny in comparison.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/nockuth

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/moon115115

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/winterRimyeah


Oh my heart!

----------


## G-Potion

That Damian is totally my favorite.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Rise

Really like this fanart.

----------


## Rise

This gif was posted many times, but I still laugh everytime I see it. Whoever made it, thank you.

----------


## RedBird

Have you guys heard the news that Lobdell is taking over Nightwing? I hope that doesn't mean he'll drop Red Hood anytime soon.  :Frown: 

I've really loved his RH stuff since rebirth and truth be told, if Lobdell ever left, I'm not sure I can think of anyone who would do Jasons character justice.

----------


## G-Potion

> Have you guys heard the news that Lobdell is taking over Nightwing? I hope that doesn't mean he'll drop Red Hood anytime soon. 
> 
> I've really loved his RH stuff since rebirth and truth be told, if Lobdell ever left, I'm not sure I can think of anyone who would do Jasons character justice.


A while back he did say on Instagram that rumors about him leaving after the solo arc are false and he's not going anywhere soon. Hopefully it's still true as of now. Is Lobdell taking over NW for the foreseeable future or just 3 issues?

----------


## RedBird

> A while back he did say on Instagram that rumors about him leaving after the solo arc are false and he's not going anywhere soon. Hopefully it's still true as of now. Is Lobdell taking over NW for the foreseeable future or just 3 issues?


No clue if it goes beyond this arc or not. Either way, I was just worried since there's no telling when this change occurred behind the scenes you know? So it may even be after Lobdell made that statement about not leaving.

----------


## Sergard

I don't think Lobdell is going to drop RHatO. It should be way easier for DC to find a writer who can give Nightwing a consistent voice than Red Hood.
Lobdell is probably a short-time solution until DC finds a new writer for Nightwing.
Percy's leave was very unexpected and sudden, or?

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah I think Lobdell has been on the book for so long because no one has a better pitch for RH than he does. Moving him to NW not only doesn't guarantee solving NW problem but also creates more with RH. But like you said, we don't know what's goin on so yeah, there's good reason to be worried.

----------


## RedBird

> I don't think Lobdell is going to drop RHatO. It should be way easier for DC to find a writer who can give Nightwing a consistent voice than Red Hood.
> Lobdell is probably a short-time solution until DC finds a new writer for Nightwing.
> Percy's leave was very unexpected and sudden, or?


I think it was, from what I can gather, suspicions are that either a mixture of King's story (Nightwing being injured) and/or some kind of editorial mandate for this status quo forced Percy's hand and honestly I think he may have decided to just drop the book himself than allow them to yank him around, the man's not even finishing the stories he started and new solicits have already been revealed for Lobdells take on it now.

Hopefully Lobdell is still totally on board with Rhato, and hopefully this additional book won't mean that he will be splitting his attention too much and quality depletion. Nightwing is a bi monthly after all. Like you said, you can find a lot more writers for Nightwing than you can for rhato, though I am kinda curious to see Lobdell's DG.

----------


## Rise

He probably just a fill in because of Percy leaving suddenly. Aren't these issues he is working on solicited for Oct and Nov? RH solicits for these months already have Lobdell on them and I doubt DC would remove him in the middle of the arc.

Don't panic or make a big deal of it.

----------


## G-Potion

I remember someone here mentioned that scripting actually doesn't take that much time so juggling 2 books are completely doable. Also Lobdell is no stranger to scripting multiple titles at the same time. I'm curious about his NW as well. I didn't care for the book for quite some time but I will pick it back up.

----------


## RedBird

> I remember someone here mentioned that scripting actually doesn't take that much time so juggling 2 books are completely doable. Also Lobdell is no stranger to scripting multiple titles at the same time. I'm curious about his NW as well. I didn't care for the book for quite some time but I will pick it back up.


Along with Lobdell I believe art for issue #51 and #53 will be done by Travis Moore whose work on Nightwing prelude to the Wedding was beautiful.

Actually whilst I'm mentioning Nightwing this was the new solicit for #53

_'As the group of vigilantes take on the persona and mantle of Nightwing, he is forced to ante up his hand when one of his close friends is murdered… Will he cast his lot with his old super hero friends to take down these rogues, or will he decide to embrace his “newfound” abilities'_

Does this coincide with HIC? If so, who do you think, is it Roy or Wally? Or both?

----------


## Restingvoice

He lost his memory though. Would Roy and Wally's death affect him?  

Yeah, Lobdell was writing Superman, Action, Red Hood and Teen Titans at the same time once... and Superboy... I think...

----------


## RedBird

> He lost his memory though. Would Roy and Wally's death affect him?


I was more questioning which of the two it would be (or both) but ha, that's a good point. Perhaps the intention there was to display that just the knowledge that that WAS his friend would be enough to get even an amnesia riddled DG into action?




> Yeah, Lobdell was writing Superman, Action, Red Hood and Teen Titans at the same time once... and Superboy... I think...


True, but I don't recall any of those titles being as highly regarded or rather, critically praised as rhato rebirth is now (maybe superman/action was, I _really_ don't recall that one). Again, I just hope there's no depletion in quality with the split priorities.

----------


## G-Potion

Fanartist are sure having fun with the hood.

https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited

----------


## Rise

Seeing all these reactions to the latest news was a sad reminder how cult minded comic community have become (and fan cultural in general) and how I myself fell in this by creating animosity with some people over these made up characters who are never worth getting in pointless fights and arguments over them. I'm here because I want to talk about a hobby I share with people here, not create enemies and hostility. 

So, I apologize to evey person I hurt or offended by my comments (this include you Aahz and Dark who I know I have been unnecessary harsh with you guys and I appreciate how you never were rude to me).

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks to this recent development, I was too unpleasantly reminded of this. I'm grateful that at least this thread manages to stay pretty chilled compared to some others. You guys are awesome.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> No clue if it goes beyond this arc or not. Either way, I was just worried since there's no telling when this change occurred behind the scenes you know? So it may even be after Lobdell made that statement about not leaving.


Honestly I believe this might be the source of the rumor that he was leaving RHATO rather than it being something that happened after Lobdell made the statement that he wasn't leaving. Likely this is just a temp thing just until they can get a new writer for Nightwing. That's how I see it anyway.

----------


## Zaresh

> Seeing all these reactions to the latest news was a sad reminder how cult minded comic community have become (and fan cultural in general) and how I myself fell in this by creating animosity with some people over these made up characters who are never worth getting in pointless fights and arguments over them. I'm here because I want to talk about a hobby I share with people here, not create enemies and hostility. 
> 
> So, I apologize to evey person I hurt or offended by my comments (this include you Aahz and Dark who I know I have been unnecessary harsh with you guys and I appreciate how you never were rude to me).





> Thanks to this recent development, I was too unpleasantly reminded of this. I'm grateful that at least this thread manages to stay pretty chilled compared to some others. You guys are awesome.


The feeling is mutual. Lately (last year or two), I've noticed that Internet, or certain corners of it, is starting to sound like a Church-like dynamic I've never enjoyed. It may not involve any God, but there are a lot of morals thrown in and posturing and radical blaming that I definitely don't like. It always ends up making some people misserable without reason.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Seeing all these reactions to the latest news was a sad reminder how cult minded comic community have become (and fan cultural in general) and how I myself fell in this by creating animosity with some people over these made up characters who are never worth getting in pointless fights and arguments over them. I'm here because I want to talk about a hobby I share with people here, not create enemies and hostility. 
> 
> So, I apologize to evey person I hurt or offended by my comments (this include you Aahz and Dark who I know I have been unnecessary harsh with you guys and I appreciate how you never were rude to me).





> Thanks to this recent development, I was too unpleasantly reminded of this. I'm grateful that at least this thread manages to stay pretty chilled compared to some others. You guys are awesome.


Yeah, I was also unpleasantly reminded of that as well recently. Unfortunately, that's been a problem with fan culture since fans started gathering on message boards, bulletin boards and the like. I do think its much worse now though with fans who feel so entitled to their view on some subject or other that they just don't listen to any reasonably argued viewpoint that might be different from their own. (This has also filtered into real life debates where people would rather attempt to "out scream" each other rather than have any kind of dialog with each other.) It's sad really. 

Also if I've offended or upset anyone here I apologize. I tend to get rather passionate at times about things and sometimes I think my frustrations with certain people here set me off when I never mean to go off on someone.




> The feeling is mutual. Lately (last year or two), I've noticed that Internet, or certain corners of it, is starting to sound like a Church-like dynamic I've never enjoyed. It may not involve any God, but there are a lot of morals thrown in and posturing and radical blaming that I definitely don't like. It always ends up making some people misserable without reason.


Yeah, it almost always ends up making me miserable when is see things like that online. Here it ends up making me lose a bit of interest in comics or particular characters or even writers at times.

----------


## Zaresh

> Honestly I believe this might be the source of the rumor that he was leaving RHATO rather than it being something that happened after Lobdell made the statement that he wasn't leaving. Likely this is just a temp thing just until they can get a new writer for Nightwing. That's how I see it anyway.


Heh, that was my first thought when I read the news, that these were the source of that guessing rumour. 

Well, that, and that I hope he doesn't get much troubled by having to write three books each month (NW is still biweekly, right?). It could work against a more well thought and rounded writing for RHATO.

----------


## RedBird

That's a lovely sentiment you have there Rise and G, agreed.

And here's another fan art spotted, I hope to see more of the new outfit.  :Smile: 

ayinggg

----------


## G-Potion

The comments from Reddit are hilarious by the way.

----------


## G-Potion

They're really brothers.

https://twitter.com/TT_a_z

----------


## bell

> The comments from Reddit are hilarious by the way.


I like the new look, hope it stays a bit long

----------


## RedBird

> 


OOoof, I'm always super jealous when I see such clean lines and small details in a simple sketch. Wish I could do that.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason and Dick from Titans
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/09/...on-dc-universe

----------


## RedBird

> Jason and Dick from Titans
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/09/...on-dc-universe


Awwww bros, how cute. Hmmm, I wonder if Dick knows of Jasons existence in this universe as Robin already, or *if this is a Nightwing Year one scenario.*

Never mind just read the article, definitely NYO.

Also this picture is nice

----------


## Rise

Great pics! This is Jason first live action appearance ever and I'm excited for it.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason and Dick from Titans
> http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/09/...on-dc-universe


Well, that was unexpected.

I like it. Yep, I like it so far.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice! Looking forward to this. Whether they'll go for the same old tension or trying new dynamic between them, I'm excited.

----------


## G-Potion

I like what the showrunner says about Jason and Dick as well. I haven't thought much about how much they align with my opinion, but it's a good read.

----------


## RedBird

I'm always kinda iffy when writers want to set up a sharp contrast between the two, will have to see it on screen first before judging, although this bit made me laugh.

"You get to watch Dick Grayson struggle when he sees another Robin and * how that Robin is different and has a different relationship with 'dad.' And the second child gets away with stuff the first child would never get away with in a family*, and ours is really a family show."

That's actually pretty close to how I thought of Jason and Bruces time together.

----------


## G-Potion

That's pretty much how I see it as well.

----------


## Zaresh

Oh, by the way, even if I didn't finish it yet, I did finish my pencil step on that fanart I started a month or so ago. Here is the Tumblr post and here is the pic itself.

red and robin and hood.jpg

Slow and lazy fanartist is slow and lazy, as they say ^_^u.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I'm always kinda iffy when writers want to set up a sharp contrast between the two, will have to see it on screen first before judging, although this bit made me laugh.
> 
> "You get to watch Dick Grayson struggle when he sees another Robin and * how that Robin is different and has a different relationship with 'dad.' And the second child gets away with stuff the first child would never get away with in a family*, and ours is really a family show."
> 
> That's actually pretty close to how I thought of Jason and Bruces time together.





> That's pretty much how I see it as well.


Yup and yup.

----------


## Rac7d*



----------


## Aioros22

The only hype of the show. Was not really expecting Jason to be already in the game.

----------


## Frontier

> 


Wow. They actually look like brothers (or a younger and older version of each other). 

I guess this is going to make it more likely Dick becomes Nightwing at some point, so there aren't two Robins running around at the same time.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Wow. They actually look like brothers (or a younger and older version of each other). 
> 
> I guess this is going to make it more likely Dick becomes Nightwing at some point, so there aren't two Robins running around at the same time.


Eh, apparently a few whacks with a crowbar, a big boom, and magic water make you bigger than your older brother. So, all in good time.

...Too soon?

----------


## Alycat

Alright, I've finally come around on the new costume. still don't like the short hair though.

----------


## G-Potion

The only consolation is hair grows back. I'm just sad we didn't get a Mulan moment.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh, by the way, even if I didn't finish it yet, I did finish my pencil step on that fanart I started a month or so ago. Here is the Tumblr post and here is the pic itself.
> 
> red and robin and hood.jpg
> 
> Slow and lazy fanartist is slow and lazy, as they say ^_^u.


Color itttt! Those hoods in the back are just too adorable to be left B&W. You can leave Batman like that however. He deserves it until he grovels for forgiveness. But you can color his soul though. He needs it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Color itttt! Those hoods in the back are just too adorable to be left B&W. You can leave Batman like that however. He deserves it until he grovels for forgiveness. But you can color his soul though. He needs it.


I'm going to colour it, sure (even Batman). I'm just too much of a colour fanatic not to. And I love my markers so, so, so, so much. Did I say already that I love my markers? No? I love them!

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/Mrs_Wilson___

----------


## G-Potion

@Mithluin_




@偽正经

----------


## RedBird



----------


## sifighter

You know what would be really cool with Jason Todd being in Titans, if we eventually just got a Red Hood spin-off show. I think that would probably be pretty cool but I guess that would depend on some factors huh.

----------


## dietrich

> 


This is a nice surprise. Wasn't sure I was going to dig this show but this might change things.

----------


## Jackalope89

> You know what would be really cool with Jason Todd being in Titans, if we eventually just got a Red Hood spin-off show. I think that would probably be pretty cool but I guess that would depend on some factors huh.


Honestly, with the way the show had been portrayed, it would have fit Red Hood far better than Dick. As it is, that would have to wait at least a couple of seasons before it would make sense.

----------


## Aahz

> You know what would be really cool with Jason Todd being in Titans, if we eventually just got a Red Hood spin-off show. I think that would probably be pretty cool but I guess that would depend on some factors huh.


I'm not sure if the Actor would be a good fit for Red Hood, he seems fine for the teenage version, but not really for the adult Jason.

----------


## RedBird

yen-yen-yen

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## Zaresh

So many fanarts with the new costume. Nice to see it's kind of liked, even if controversial. I guess Wood's actual art style at work has helped it  :Smile: .

----------


## Sergard

I love how most fanarts completely ignore Jason's new haircut. I can understand why.

And on an unrelated note, I finally understand why some of you people here said that a fox logo could be fitting for Jason. I didn't know that a male fox is called tod or todd. I only knew so far that the german word "Tod" means death in English. So Jason's own name was unintentionally a bad omen from the beginning. And it's kinda funny that his grandmother is named "Gunn". So you basically have death and guns in Jason's family tree.

----------


## G-Potion

Aaa so that's two more of my favorite fanartists who have drawn Jason in new costume. I love how jjmk beefed him up as well.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

Have you guys seen this? I died.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

https://riipeachyjam.tumblr.com/post...han-dick-im-so

----------


## Frontier

> Have you guys seen this? I died.


Yeah, that's Jason  :Wink: .

----------


## Arsenal

Wonder how many times Jason had to steal it before Bruce finally gave up and let him use it

----------


## Zaresh

> Have you guys seen this? I died.


So Jason is going to be the happy one.
Weird. I'm not complaining at all. At all.

----------


## Sergard

It's cute that Dick thinks that Batman "lets" Jason drive the batmobile.
The scene reminds me of Jason's "Robin gives me magic" moment.
Although I don't think Jason's comic version cared about being "famous".

----------


## kaimaciel

I just came back from church to find this and I feel blessed  :Smile:

----------


## Jackalope89

> So Jason is going to be the happy one.
> Weird. I'm not complaining at all. At all.


Well, it is before he died, so...

----------


## G-Potion

It is time DC dispelled the myth about perpetually angry Robin Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> Well, it is before he died, so...


I know, it's just that I feel happily surprised. I suspect he will be depicted as the reckless one, tho.




> It is time DC dispelled the myth about perpetually angry Robin Jason.


I know, right? Also, wasn't Dick a slightly angsty young man in the NTT run? This serious Dick seems to fit that mood.

I cannot hold all my happiness right now. Holy sheep.

----------


## Aioros22

> Wonder how many times Jason had to steal it before Bruce finally gave up and let him use it


Might as well, he`s magic with the tire iron. 

Pleaseantly surprised by how much this clip is bringing some hype to the show after the lackluster introduction. Oh, did anyone read Mother`s Panic conclusion? What did you all thought about it?

----------


## Aahz

> Oh, did anyone read Mother`s Panic conclusion? What did you all thought about it?


It was imo kind of lacklustre. It wasn't really a conclusion of Mother Panics Story (Gather House ...), and Jason also didn't really added anything to it or got anything out of it.

I mean it is very unlikely that they make another Mother Panic series (sales were really low), so I would kind of expect that try to wrap up her story somehow.

----------


## thebluefeline

Matt Reeves just tweeted this https://twitter.com/mattreevesLA/sta...459038720?s=19

A sign of things to come?

----------


## Zaresh

Hmmmmm... I was thinking... What if DickBats (in the Titans show) is the endgame? They don't use Bruce for whatever reason. And they could go for a very different alternate universe with Bruce dying instead of Jason. Jason going in a vengeance crusade and Dick taking on the Cowl.

Edit: don't post while partying. It's a baaad idea.
Edit 2: because I didn't mean to quote.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Weird question, I was thinking about Countdown to Final Crisis and I distinctively remember someone from Editorial (maybe Didio or Dini) stating that Jason's arc on that book was to show he had learned nothing. However, I can't find anything about it, does anyone knows and/or remembers the interview I'm talking about?

----------


## byrd156

> Weird question, I was thinking about Countdown to Final Crisis and I distinctively remember someone from Editorial (maybe Didio or Dini) stating that Jason's arc on that book was to show he had learned nothing. However, I can't find anything about it, does anyone knows and/or remembers the interview I'm talking about?


Everything involved with Countdown is best forgotten.

----------


## G-Potion

Not really. Jason and his Challenger team are liked by many.

----------


## Zaresh

> Not really. Jason and his Challenger team are liked by many.


Yep, one of the very few things one can save from (I mean it) Countdown. And mys favourite costume for Jason.

----------


## RedBird

> It is time DC dispelled the myth about perpetually angry Robin Jason.


Yeah honestly, I'm really happy that they are displaying something closer to the OG canon for Jasons time as Robin.

And I'm also genuinely surprised that Jason is getting screen time in Titans, both in and out of costume. Even after an actor was cast for the role, I thought for sure he'd only show up for like a 10 second cameo in the Wayne Manor or something in the 'Jason Todd' episode.

----------


## RedBird

> Oh, did anyone read Mother`s Panic conclusion? What did you all thought about it?


Like Aahz said, very lackluster, very anticlimactic and in general very very rushed. Jason really didn't bring anything to the table for Violets book or story line. 
BUT....I do have one thing that I liked about Jasons writing in that book and ending, even with acknowledging that the execution fell a bit flat due to these problems mentioned.

Jasons story line in MP felt extremely reminiscent to the infamous Battle for the Cowl story, where he's off the rails, dressing like Batman, psychotic, ooc, hurting a kid AND is clearly shown to be suffering from some kind of PTSD and mental illness that have resurfaced from his past. See now, I wouldn't argue FOR Jason going through something like this, but if the universe willed it, and we HAD to have a story line where Jason has a complete breakdown and goes nuts. MP felt closer to what a story like BFTC _should_ have been for a character that is shown to be a suffering family member. 

You know, instead of using Jasons mental issues and childhood PTSD against him as a means of justifying why he is _irredeemable_ and therefore forever_ 'broken'_ as a person, MP (in the form of Mother) used that part of Jason's psyche to show that those issues are exactly WHY he deserves compassion, understanding and a second chance. The extension of the olive branch here is genuine and not a faux only displayed to show how 'Jason chooses to be crazy and doesn't want help'. Hell we even get a better insight into the trauma/ptsd here, instead of it being something vague thrown in his face, triggering a reaction, its shown here through his own hallucinations (giving the audience an insight into his pain therefore humanizing him) displaying what I interpreted on top of prior trauma as added self loathing and extreme survivors guilt.

All in all, rather than using the story as a way of purposefully demonizing the character, it was more sympathetic to his plight, and considering some of the best Batman stories (and one of Bruces most noble traits when its done right) feature displaying a good level of compassion and redemption even towards those who do wrong, I personally think this is more fitting within the bat mythos.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice write-up, @RedBird! I completely agree.  :Smile:

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah honestly, I'm really happy that they are displaying something closer to the OG canon for Jasons time as Robin.
> 
> And I'm also genuinely surprised that Jason is getting screen time in Titans, both in and out of costume. Even after an actor was cast for the role, I thought for sure he'd only show up for like a 10 second cameo in the Wayne Manor or something in the 'Jason Todd' episode.


Jason replacing Dick is an issue for him all the way through the trigon arc. Im still getting though the New teen titans so he hasn't dies yet, I am curious for that reaction as well

----------


## Aahz

> So Jason is going to be the happy one.
> Weird. I'm not complaining at all. At all.


If they want his death to have an impact, he has to be somehow likeable before. And maybe we see him get darker and more aggressive before.




> I know, it's just that I feel happily surprised. I suspect he will be depicted as the reckless one, tho.


I hope they don't ignore that Dick was also quite reckless in his youth and had fun and enjoid being Robin, the big differnce between Dick and Jason as Robin is imo that Jason was more violent and aggressive.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason replacing Dick is an issue for him all the way through the trigon arc. Im still getting though the New teen titans so he hasn't dies yet, I am curious for that reaction as well


You mean Dicks reaction to Jason dying? I suppose if that came to fruition this show can go in two routes. 

One, Dick is constantly jealous of Jason till the very end when Jason dies, and then Dick experiences guilt and or remorse for not interacting the kid more, bringing the angst and drama. That would be closer to the comics. (although of course its not completely accurate, in PC Dick did interact in the end but it still wasn't much and nothing close to the more brotherly relationships Dick had with Tim and Damian.)

OR second option, they go about this show by having Dick and Jason bicker at first but slowly become closer and more like brothers before Jason meets his end. Since the show runner mentioned that this is really a 'family show', and IF they REALLY wants to drive up the angst, they would be wiser imo to go with _this_ option. It would help endear people to this brotherly relationship before it's cut short by the tragedy of Jasons death. (Something like the fan-made Nightwing series by ismahawk.) We would also get to see Dick in a more positive and mature light as he comes to terms with his 'replacement' and even warms up to him, it could add to his character arc of becoming Nightwing and a gracious leader.

I'm SUPER hoping it's the second option, since otherwise, considering the more streamlined narrative of a show compared to comics, you run into character issues with the first option, which is one of the reasons why I don't think the show runners will have Dick hate Jason the whole time. See now, the different comics were in the end all their own story lines, so despite their poor relationship overall in PC, stuff happening to Jason wasn't something negatively reflected back on Dick, he had nothing to do with that. However, since Dick is the star of _this_ show, things _will_ relate back to him, including how he interacts with the characters around him, and the last thing I imagine audiences would want see is him treating a kid character like crap the whole to time, only to then see said kid be killed off, it would just make Dick look like a jerk for giving a character that meets a tragic end such a hard time. 

So yeah, I'm guessing with the way the show is presenting itself and presenting the characters, I think the reaction to Jasons death will be more tragic and depressing from Dicks angle this time, making it _really_ feel like he lost his brother. That is IF we get that far in the narrative.

----------


## RedBird

doc-squash

Fallin on hard times XD



_“Air-conditioning okay? Please excuse the blood.”_

----------


## G-Potion

"Please excuse the blood.”

I wonder if he picks up rival mob bosses and drives them to oblivion.

----------


## RedBird

kaelngu

----------


## RedBird

vorimar-blog



_“Goodbye, Bruce”_

----------


## RedBird

@mcmramcm

----------


## Zaresh

> kaelngu


Wow. That's pretty art.

----------


## RedBird

@uBnoM_

----------


## RedBird

cherrymiko-art







#LetDickDriveTheBatmovile2k18
_
but we all know Jay lie… or did he?_

----------


## RedBird

I think along with these reveals in Titans there must be some mood in the air tonight for Jason Robin, I'm coming across a lot more fan art than usual on my twitter.

@e_noeno

_Second Generation Robin_

----------


## Zaresh

People is so fast. I wish I were, too!




> cherrymiko-art
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #LetDickDriveTheBatmovile2k18
> ...


He he he. This one is funny.

I'm guessing that either Jason took the Batmobile without permission; or he was testing if Dick did drive it while he cannot; or Bruce does let Jason drive because he doesn't want to repeat the mistakes he made with Dick, giving him more freedom, spoiling him a bit in comparison, etc.

----------


## RedBird

> People is so fast. I wish I were, too!
> 
> 
> 
> He he he. This one is funny.
> 
> I'm guessing that either Jason took the Batmobile without permission; or he was testing if Dick did drive it while he cannot; or Bruce does let Jason drive because he doesn't want to repeat the mistakes he made with Dick, giving him more freedom, spoiling him a bit in comparison, etc.


That's just it, I'm trying to interpret that SHRUG that Jason does when Dick asks him. 

Knowing the show runner mentioned younger siblings get away with more. My brain tells me that that SHRUG meant, 'yeah so'? 

But knowing Jason, my heart tells me that that SHRUG meant, 'I mean.......I didn't actually ASK him, but he didn't say no'.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk





_BAT-BRO_

----------


## Sergard

Did anybody here read "The Immortal Men"? I have seen some pages and they reminded me a little bit of the All-Caste and the Untitled. There was even a guy with two glowing swords.
As I said, I didn't read the story. It could still be completely different. Is the comic worth reading?

----------


## Korath

> Did anybody here read "The Immortal Men"? I have seen some pages and they reminded me a little bit of the All-Caste and the Untitled. There was even a guy with two glowing swords.
> As I said, I didn't read the story. It could still be completely different. Is the comic worth reading?


I would have said yes, if the ending wasn't so abrupt. Tynion seemed to want to move to other things. It does a relatively decent job at setting up a new corner of the DCU, one where the Untitled and the All-Caste would fit perfectly, but I don't think it'll be developed more.

Honestly, I think that The Silencer will play a bigger role in the current Red Hood arc, if any of the NAoH book will guest-star in, since the Underlife has a concept was created there, and the main character is deeply rooted in it.

----------


## G-Potion

@RedBird: So many pretty arts. Thanks for posting Red! I makes me happy to see how Jason being in Titans creates such an excitement that I honestly haven't seen before with the show. For sure not as many fan arts (that I've seen) as the ones for our boy.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> That's just it, I'm trying to interpret that SHRUG that Jason does when Dick asks him. 
> 
> Knowing the show runner mentioned younger siblings get away with more. My brain tells me that that SHRUG meant, 'yeah so'? 
> 
> But knowing Jason, my heart tells me that that SHRUG meant, 'I mean.......I didn't actually ASK him, but he didn't say no'.


Bruce might have just caved in. The alternative was too much of a headache and twice as many missing wheels. But I'm down with Bruce spoiling Jason rotten as well.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/09...ajor-spoilers/

Pour one for *spoilers:*
Roy
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

Well if this is super duper confirmed, I suppose we all assumed it would end like this. *spoilers:*
At the very least, I'm glad we got that annual with Jason and Roy, it was bittersweet but still felt like a nice little tribute to their time together. After their 'break up' it was really good to see them leave each other on a more high note. Did he receive any other sweet issues like that in GA or Titans? I don't keep up with those titles myself. This is comics though, so I'm already kinda wondering when he will return, though for now, R.I.P Roy.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## RedBird

@nockuth

----------


## RedBird

@LennysanArt

----------


## Sergard

> Well if this is super duper confirmed, I suppose we all assumed it would end like this.


In regards to your spoiler-text:

*spoilers:*
Ollie and Roy hugged in GA before Roy left for Sanctuary. And later Ollie is leaving a message behind for Roy in case something happens to Ollie and Ollie thinks "Roy can handle the danger. Archers are good at knowing when they're being targeted." That's why I am surprised that Roy is dying in HiC. So I'm still hoping that Roy isn't really dying but going undercover.

I don't know if something similar happened in Titans but I know that Roy and Cheshire recently had some "sexy time" in Titans - so maybe we'll get Lian Harper?

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Zaresh

*spoilers:*

As someone with another event-suffering trickarrow archer between her faves, I feel for Roy fans.

*end of spoilers*

On another news, it seems that RHATO #25 did almost 22,000 copies in August. And the annual over the 16,000 mark, which is good, I guess, for a late month release of an annual? Not sure, but doesn't sound bad, right?

----------


## RedBird

> *SPOILER WARNING* (what's the tag again?)


Are you asking how to hide text?
It's like this.

[*spoil]text that needs to be hidden[/spoil]

Just remove the star.

----------


## Zaresh

> Are you asking how to hide text?
> It's like this.
> 
> [*spoil]text that needs to be hidden[/spoil]
> 
> Just remove the star.


Thanks! I was trying [spoiler] and obviously It was not going to work, silly me. I'll edit my post then.

----------


## G-Potion

> On another news, it seems that RHATO #25 did almost 22,000 copies in August. And the annual over the 16,000 mark, which is good, I guess, for a late month release of an annual? Not sure, but doesn't sound bad, right?


And I think since #25 it has been ranking high on digital as well.

----------


## Zaresh

> And I think since #25 it has been ranking high on digital as well.


This is good news. So glad to hear it's recovering readers.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Well I'll be damned




> redhood29.jpg
> 
> RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #29 
> 
> Written by Scott Lobdell, art and cover by Pete Woods, variant cover by Yasmine Putri.
> 
> Batwoman joins the fight! Both Kate and Jason find themselves exiled from Gotham for taking the law into their own hands. But just because they both angered Batman doesn't make them allies...does it? Maybe not, but both are on the trail of a rogue player in the Underlife -- the secret cabal of criminal conspirators who play by a shared set of rules -- and teaming up could be the only way to take him down. What's actually hiding under the seemingly perfect surface of Appleton? The Red Hood might not live to expose it!
> 
> 32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Dec. 5.


Wasn't there a rumor about Kate showing up in the book?

----------


## Sergard

Oh yes! Jason with a scythe (although the handle looks too short), definitely getting that cover.
I can't remember a rumor about Kate showing up in RHatO. But I hope they talk about what happened in issue 15 - and that Jason was in favor of letting her stay in the batfamily.
But did I miss something? Kate is not really exiled from Gotham, or? I thought she and Bruce talked it out.

----------


## Zaresh

Damn! So pulpy-B-cheap-whatever, it's like it hits all my 80's weak spots at the same time. I hope my brother ends up reading my books soon because he's going to love this stuff even more.




> Well I'll be damned
> 
> Wasn't there a rumor about Kate showing up in the book?


But it was long time ago, I think? I doubt they were about this team up.




> Oh yes! Jason with a scythe (although the handle looks too short), definitely getting that cover.
> I can't remember a rumor about Kate showing up in RHatO. But I hope they talk about what happened in issue 15 - and that Jason was in favor of letting her stay in the batfamily.
> But did I miss something? Kate is not really exiled from Gotham, or? I thought she and Bruce talked it out.


As far as I recall from Tec, they even had a dinner in some restaurant where she was telling him that she was out of business (but she really wasn't). They seem warm to each other, but I don't know. Did something else happened in Batwoman before it ended? Or could be just a misleading solicit.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Damn! So pulpy-B-cheap-whatever, it's like it hits all my 80's weak spots at the same time. I hope my brother ends up reading my books soon because he's going to love this stuff even more.
> 
> 
> 
> But it was long time ago, I think? I doubt they were about this team up.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I recall from Tec, they even had a dinner in some restaurant where she was telling him that she was out of business (but she really wasn't). They seem warm to each other, but I don't know. Did something else happened in Batwoman before it ended? Or could be just a misleading solicit.


End of Batwoman had a final confrontation between Kate and her sister, with Alice sending a massive swarm of infected bats out into Gotham to make the population sick. Bruce got involved near the end. But I think it took place before Kate shot Clayface, but its been a while since I read it.

But in all honesty, scythes make for pretty poor weapons. They can look intimidating, but really suck otherwise. Unless they're part sniper rifle.

----------


## Zaresh

> End of Batwoman had a final confrontation between Kate and her sister, with Alice sending a massive swarm of infected bats out into Gotham to make the population sick. Bruce got involved near the end. But I think it took place before Kate shot Clayface, but its been a while since I read it.
> 
> But in all honesty, scythes make for pretty poor weapons. They can look intimidating, but really suck otherwise. Unless they're part sniper rifle.


It's for artistic purposes, I guess. They're in the countryside, fighting the locals with whatever they find, etc. It fits the mood.

----------


## G-Potion

Ookaay? I hope I warm up to her character this time.

But I dig that the weapon creativity streak continues.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'd follow his advice

https://www.facebook.com/RedHoodOutl...type=3&theater

----------


## G-Potion

I can only get the digital version. Is there anyone here who wants to give this run a chance so I can gift it (and some future issues) to you instead? I don't want to buy another one just to gift it to myself.

----------


## RedBird

Already have been since the start of Rebirth, I've bought every normal cover and every variant cover. Sometimes I still buy a third digital copy as well, during the times where I cant make it to my comic store for release day but have to read it NOW.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk



_Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd and Jason Todd_

----------


## Zaresh

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd and Jason Todd_


This is awesome. Loving Knight crying, with Mother Panic Jason? Or Hush Jason? Looking back at the animation and current ones. Oh! And BotC... Right. It's funny, because animated is wearing Tim's costume and all.

----------


## Caivu

> I can't remember a rumor about Kate showing up in RHatO. But I hope they talk about what happened in issue 15 - and that Jason was in favor of letting her stay in the batfamily.


The rumor was one of the 4chan "leaks" from about a month ago.




> But did I miss something? Kate is not really exiled from Gotham, or? I thought she and Bruce talked it out.


She was never exiled, and yes, she and Bruce reconciled.




> As far as I recall from Tec, they even had a dinner in some restaurant where she was telling him that she was out of business (but she really wasn't). They seem warm to each other, but I don't know. Did something else happened in Batwoman before it ended?


She didn't imply she was out of business, just that she needed to refocus her mission. They did have a tense confrontation in her series, but that happened before she joined the Colony.




> End of Batwoman had a final confrontation between Kate and her sister, with Alice sending a massive swarm of infected bats out into Gotham to make the population sick. Bruce got involved near the end. But I think it took place before Kate shot Clayface, but its been a while since I read it.


It happened after she shot Clayface, and before she joined the Colony. There were two issues after that that happen after 'Tec #981, where she was still in good terms with Bruce.

----------


## Aahz

It is anyway quite hard to say where on the timeline the books are in realtion to each other, HatO didn't really refernced anything that happend in the other books.

----------


## Zaresh

> She didn't imply she was out of business, just that she needed to refocus her mission. They did have a tense confrontation in her series, but that happened before she joined the Colony.


Oh, I was misremembering then.

----------


## RedBird

> This is awesome. Loving Knight crying, with Mother Panic Jason? Or Hush Jason? Looking back at the animation and current ones. Oh! And BotC... Right. It's funny, because animated is wearing Tim's costume and all.


I believe its upper left to right; animated film under the red hood Jason and BFTC Jason

Center; Post rebirth (current) Jason

Lower left to right; Hush Jason, Arkham Jason and Rebirth Jason.


(It's Hush Jay because of the non logo shirt and Robin emblem on the chest)

----------


## Sergard

> Already have been since the start of Rebirth, I've bought every normal cover and every variant cover. Sometimes I still buy a third digital copy as well, during the times where I cant make it to my comic store for release day but have to read it NOW.


I'm trying to collect every normal and variant cover since issue 25. Yasmine Putri's art is too gorgeous to resist.




> The rumor was one of the 4chan "leaks" from about a month ago.
> 
> She was never exiled, and yes, she and Bruce reconciled.


Now that you mention it, I think I remember that rumor. Maybe I even commented on it. Although I don't think that the leaker actually knew that Jason and Kate would team up. Seems more like a lucky guess.


I'm surprised that there are still people that are confused that Penguin is alive in "Batman" although it was even stated in RHatO #24, in the issue he was shot, that he isn't dead but in critical condition.

Justice League Dark #6 could be interesting. I think it's the first appearance of Blue Devil in Rebirth. Maybe that means that someday we'll get Kid Devil/Red Devil too.

----------


## Zaresh

> I believe its upper left to right; animated film under the red hood Jason and BFTC Jason
> 
> Center; Post rebirth (current) Jason
> 
> Lower left to right; Hush Jason, Arkham Jason and Rebirth Jason.
> 
> 
> (It's Hush Jay because of the non logo shirt and Robin emblem on the chest)


Oh, right. I totally overlooked that logo part.

----------


## G-Potion

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd and Jason Todd_


Awesome! Arkham Knight crying is hilarious but the rest are just perfectly in character.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> Awesome! Arkham Knight crying is hilarious but the rest are just perfectly in character.


Yeah by far Rebirth Jason was the most emotionally stable, enough so that he could help console and guide others like Biz, it's fitting he's the one helping poor Arkham Jason.

That being said, I sense a hilarious/bitter revelation within this image alone.




*Rebirth Jason looking at the latest Jason f**king sh*t up in the background
*
Rebirth Jason:* _Poor guy, I wonder what horrible universe he came from._

*Hush Jason:* _...That's you in 10 days._

*Rebirth Jason:* _Wha?..._

----------


## Caivu

> It is anyway quite hard to say where on the timeline the books are in realtion to each other, HatO didn't really refernced anything that happend in the other books.


Not really. We know that the current goings-on in RHatO logically _have_ to take place after 'Tec #975, for example, and almost certainly after #981 as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah by far Rebirth Jason was the most emotionally stable, enough so that he could help console and guide others like Biz, it's fitting he's the one helping poor Arkham Jason.
> 
> That being said, I sense a hilarious/bitter revelation within this image alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rebirth Jason looking at the latest Jason f**king sh*t up in the background
> *
> ...


The Hush Jason is A+ as well. Of all the Jasons, he would be the one to watch the world burn.

----------


## Rise

So much for solo Jason. It sure didn't take them long before they pushed him with someone and it's Kate. Yay....

I might skip this issue because I really can't stand her and don't get who the heck keep pushing her to appear in RH. If she staying for more issues, I'm dropping the book until she leave.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah by far Rebirth Jason was the most emotionally stable, enough so that he could help console and guide others like Biz, it's fitting he's the one helping poor Arkham Jason.
> 
> That being said, I sense a hilarious/bitter revelation within this image alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rebirth Jason looking at the latest Jason f**king sh*t up in the background
> *
> ...


Ha ha ha xD

----------


## Caivu

> So much for solo Jason. It sure didn't take them long before they pushed him with someone and it's Kate. Yay....
> 
> I might skip this issue because I really can't stand her and don't get who the heck keep pushing her to appear in RH. If she staying for more issues, I'm dropping the book until she leave.


Aww, don't let Lobdell's kinda-crappy writing of her color your opinion.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## magpieM

Just out of curiosity: coincidence or what? He always teams up with red hair female characters...

----------


## Arsenal

> So much for solo Jason. It sure didn't take them long before they pushed him with someone and it's Kate. Yay....
> 
> I might skip this issue because I really can't stand her and don't get who the heck keep pushing her to appear in RH. If she staying for more issues, I'm dropping the book until she leave.


I don’t see her being around very long. Maybe an issue or 2(3 at the most)

----------


## Sergard

> Just out of curiosity: coincidence or what? He always teams up with red hair female characters...


Grayson curse?

But seriously, at this point I'm starting to believe that it's some kind of running gag to let Jason team up with a redhead.

----------


## Zaresh

> Just out of curiosity: coincidence or what? He always teams up with red hair female characters...


It fits his colour scheme. Also runs in the family XD.

Nah, Countdown team was full brunette hair.

----------


## Aahz

> Not really. We know that the current goings-on in RHatO logically _have_ to take place after 'Tec #975, for example, and almost certainly after #981 as well.


Probaly but there appart from Costume change not really any clues. 
That btw. the same with TEC, there have sofar afaik also not been any references to the wedding, the whole Outsiders Thing also doesn't really fit with the current direction of the main Batman book.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd,  Jason Todd and Jason Todd_


Good art, but is bothering me the lack of N52 and DCYOU Jason.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Grayson curse?
> 
> But seriously, at this point I'm starting to believe that it's some kind of running gag to let Jason team up with a redhead.


Well, I guess you could say he's teaming up with the closest thing he has to an aunt here though (though Kate is Bruce's cousin).

----------


## G-Potion

Something from source on tumblr. Spoilers maybe.


http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...-red-hood-anon
http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...es-mess-up-the
http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17.../red-hood-anon
http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...pcoming-deaths
http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...hes-teaming-up

----------


## Jackalope89

> Something from source on tumblr. Spoilers maybe.
> 
> 
> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...-red-hood-anon
> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...es-mess-up-the
> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17.../red-hood-anon
> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...pcoming-deaths
> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...hes-teaming-up


Well, the favorite (so to speak) to kick the bucket in Heroes in Crisis was rather alluded to in Red Hood recently anyway. And in another thread, or maybe the DC forum, apparently BleedingCool spilled the beans anyway. So, yeah.

----------


## G-Potion

That one was rather given. But the way they said it like there would be multiple deaths that affect Jason?

----------


## Jackalope89

> That one was rather given. But the way they said it like there would be multiple deaths that affect Jason?


Unless Kori is also kicking the bucket, there aren't many others that Jason really has ties to that would really affect him. Though, Dick is supposed to get amnesia, but don't think that'll last long anyway. Maybe Alfred?

----------


## Arsenal

> Unless Kori is also kicking the bucket, there aren't many others that Jason really has ties to that would really affect him. Though, Dick is supposed to get amnesia, but don't think that'll last long anyway. Maybe Alfred?


Could also be his pops or grandmother. Learning he does have some family left after all only for them to die (again?) would mess him up some more.

----------


## Zaresh

Could be Tim again. They're someone who has died once already, or so I get from those notes. I'm genuinely intrigued about Kate. *spoilers:*
It seems that, as I suspected, the solicit was misleading; but also,, that she is pretending something that she's not, and that is a surprise.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## bell

> Unless Kori is also kicking the bucket, there aren't many others that Jason really has ties to that would really affect him. Though, Dick is supposed to get amnesia, but don't think that'll last long anyway. Maybe Alfred?


Anyone but Kori pls

----------


## Caivu

> I'm genuinely intrigued about Kate. *spoilers:*
> It seems that, as I suspected, the solicit was misleading; but also,, that she is pretending something that she's not, and that is a surprise.
> *end of spoilers*


Uh... did I miss something in those links?

----------


## Zaresh

> Uh... did I miss something in those links?


All those "it's not what it seems", I'm quite sleepy now, but I think they were about Kate's team up.

----------


## G-Potion

I think it just means that there's a deeper reason for Kate to be there. Family-related reason? But anyway it serves the story more than being just a simple team-up for the sake of it.

----------


## Zaresh

> I think it just means that there's a deeper reason for Kate to be there. Family-related reason? But anyway it serves the story more than being just a simple team-up for the sake of it.


For whatever reason I got from the notes that she was lying about being pushed out of Gotham, besides having hiden reasons for being there in that town. I guess I just made my own movie already based on my wild imagination, as per usual  :Smile:   :Confused:   :Big Grin: 

At least, this time I didn 't mixed up two different threads!

----------


## Sergard

> http://sixelamarr.tumblr.com/post/17...hes-teaming-up


Why are Bette, Cass, Steph and Babs a no go? Personal opinion, editorial dictate that they can't be used in general or is it because it wouldn't make sense at this time (Cass in Outsiders, Steph somewhere in limbo with Tim, etc.)?
Although I'm okay with them not being used. I'm not really interested in these characters (except maybe Cass). And there hasn't been much interaction between them and Jason in the past. So a team-up would feel a little bit random.
Do Bette and Jason even know each other?

Kate and Jason have at least some stuff in common.

----------


## G-Potion

None of them is high on my list of people I want to guest in RHATO because there's just not enough past interactions to make me interested (and the ones with Babs are just... ugh). Kate, I don't really want either, but at least there's things for her and Jason to talk about, tension to be resolved etc etc.

----------


## Sergard

> None of them is high on my list of people I want to guest in RHATO because there's just not enough past interactions to make me interested (and the ones with Babs are just... ugh). Kate, I don't really want either, but at least there's things for her and Jason to talk about, tension to be resolved etc etc.


Who is on your list? In general, doesn't have to fit the current story arc. There aren't really many people Jason interacted with in the past. As Robin he wasn't on any team and later as Red Hood he was pretty much a lone wolf until Roy and Starfire came around.

----------


## Aahz

Cass, Steph would imo be nice since they never really interacted with Jason, I don't think he should team up with Barbara untill they have finally sorted out what their relation pre DITF was like. And Bette is just to obscure.

When it comes to Kate I'm just not really a fan of her.

Whom I would also like to see in a team up are Damian, Selina and maybe Helena.

----------


## G-Potion

> Who is on your list? In general, doesn't have to fit the current story arc. There aren't really many people Jason interacted with in the past. As Robin he wasn't on any team and later as Red Hood he was pretty much a lone wolf until Roy and Starfire came around.


Well, non-Batfam characters (except for Bruce and Dick) generally get me more excited. Off the top of my head, without thinking about it too much, I have Talia as my most wanted. Countdown team. Deathstroke because I've liked their team-ups in both N52 DS book and AK Genesis. John Constantine for some horror/mystic elements that I think would be fitting for Jason. I kind of want Superman too for some reasons.

----------


## Aahz

When it comes to non Batfamily, I think Hitman (but thats unlikely) and/or Section 8 could be fun.

And if Heros in Crisis is going like everybody expects, Green Arrow might also be an option.

----------


## RedBird

> Well, non-Batfam characters (except for Bruce and Dick) generally get me more excited. Off the top of my head, without thinking about it too much, I have Talia as my most wanted. Countdown team. Deathstroke because I've liked their team-ups in both N52 DS book and AK Genesis. John Constantine for some horror/mystic elements that I think would be fitting for Jason. I kind of want Superman too for some reasons.


Hell yeah, this is pretty close to my list too.  :Big Grin: 

Talia. Yes

Deathstroke. Yes. (for the same same reasons as well)

John Constantine. Hell Yes. (Again, same reasons as yours)

With countdown, I'd love to see the characters together again, but since the previous incarnation no longer exists in this universe and if their regrouping was done in the same 'spirit' as last time, I'm not sure I would want to see _that_ again.

Superman's an interesting choice. Not one I considered previously but I feel like you could get a lot of good stuff out of such a rebel and boy scout duo, maybe even an added disapproving 'uncle' vibe XD.

----------


## RedBird

> When it comes to non Batfamily, I think Hitman (but thats unlikely) and/or Section 8 could be fun.
> 
> And if Heros in Crisis is going like everybody expects, Green Arrow might also be an option.


There's another disapproving uncle XD
Seriously though I like the idea of a GA and RH team up.  :Smile: 

As for other characters I'd like to see Jason interact with, honestly right now the only other character I can think of is 'Death'. Maybe she can clear a few things up for him.

----------


## Aahz

If the comic version is similar to the TV version Lucifer could also be fun.

----------


## G-Potion

> Superman's an interesting choice. Not one I considered previously but I feel like you could get a lot of good stuff out of such a rebel and boy scout duo, maybe even an added disapproving 'uncle' vibe XD.


That's the vibe yeah.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I feel that as clashing as their ways are, Superman could be kinder to Jason than Batman is and is less emotionally compromised.

----------


## G-Potion

> There's another disapproving uncle XD
> Seriously though I like the idea of a GA and RH team up. 
> 
> As for other characters I'd like to see Jason interact with, honestly right now the only other character I can think of is 'Death'. Maybe she can clear a few things up for him.


I really need to start reading Sandman. Was intrigued ever since that one Jason fic.

----------


## Rise

> If the comic version is similar to the TV version Lucifer could also be fun.


Yeah, no. The fact that they made a tv show to make people like and sympathy with him is already so freaking messed up.

And no to cass, steph and bette too.

----------


## Rise

Btw, there's unexpected team up with Jason that was revealed  today. You can guess who.

----------


## RedBird

> I really need to start reading Sandman. Was intrigued ever since that one Jason fic.


Sandman is great! Maybe a bit confusing on the first read but definitely intriguing. I remember loving the Corinthian when I was younger, he just looked so cool and creepy. He isn't in the series a lot btw he just stuck out in my young mind.

Also, I get a feeling I know the fic you're talking about....

----------


## RedBird

> Btw, there's unexpected team up with Jason that was revealed  today. You can guess who.



Mind filling me in? Only title I thought Jason showed up in today was in the background of Injustice vs Masters of the universe #3 Is that the one you're referring to?

----------


## Armor of God

I think I know where's he getting at.

----------


## RedBird

OH..........Well that wasn't how I expected them to ever team up.

At least they're bonding?

----------


## G-Potion

I still have no idea what. Come on guys.  :Frown:

----------


## RedBird

@G
*spoilers:*
Jason is revealed as Damians secret mentor in teen titans #22
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

That's unexpected. Good unexpected maybe because I was so sure they'd think someone else as the better option.

----------


## RedBird

> That's unexpected. Good unexpected maybe because I was so sure they wouldn't go there.


Same, I know a lot of people kept bringing him up as the potential mystery man during the rumors and while I got the _logic_ behind it I honestly thought NAH, DC'd never.
Though I wonder how far this team up could possibly last?

----------


## G-Potion

I haven't read the issue. Is Jason aware of the secret dungeon? I wonder when it blows up in Damian's face will Jason get into even more trouble?

----------


## Sergard

I first thought you guys were talking about Jason and Green Arrow being on a team with some other people in Injustice vs. Masters of the universe. Then I saw the post on reddit. It even shows a panel from the comic.
Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler
Jason is already wearing his new outfit, including the hoodie he got in RHatO #26. That was fast.
That's really an unexpected team-up. Although people were speculating that it could be Jason. But it always sounded more like people joking and not really taking that possibility serious.
All in all I'm pleasantly surprised. I like the two of them teaming up. Although the fallout will be catastrophic when Batman finds out. And most or all of the blame will probably fall on Jason.

----------


## Arsenal

> I haven't read the issue. Is Jason aware of the secret dungeon? I wonder when it blows up in Damian's face Jason will get into even more trouble.


I wouldn’t be surprised if it was originally Jason’s idea

----------


## RedBird

Splatch

----------


## G-Potion

I'm very happy that Woods is on board but man do I miss Soy.

----------


## G-Potion

This scene is apparently very popular.  :Embarrassment: 

https://twitter.com/moon115115

----------


## RedBird

> All in all I'm pleasantly surprised. I like the two of them teaming up. Although the fallout will be catastrophic when Batman finds out. And most or all of the blame will probably fall on Jason.


Same, I'd love to see how they'd get along, but, I'm not sure I like the idea of him being the one responsible for 'corrupting' Robin so to speak, since like you said it just seems like he'll get the brunt of the fallout. BUT, then again, considering how Bruce treated him in the first place, I feel this as more 'justified' in a way. That crime that Jason committed didn't equal the brutal punishment given, so let's pile on more crime, so it actually fits. :P

In all seriousness, the reveal made me more reassured for Damian since now his behavior makes a bit more sense, but in Jasons case I'm just worried. If the reasoning is that Damian is currently isolated thanks to Bruce being an ass as of late and coming to Jason for help since he knows he won't judge his 'darker' and more morally grey behavior then that's fine I think. BUT if they are gonna push too much of a Darth Vader/Emperor Palpatine dynamic here and make Jason seem like a horrible perpetrator of Damians darkness, off to the side whispering _'gooooooood, let the hate flow through you'_, then I'll be pissed.

----------


## RedBird

> This scene is apparently very popular. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/moon115115


I'm honestly super glad that clip seemed to have gotten people reconsidering Titans and actually giving it a go. If their comments about not being interested before but NOW being interested are to be believed that it. I'm willing to take the warmer reception at face value.

Also I really like this style, it's so cute.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

> Same, I'd love to see how they'd get along, but, I'm not sure I like the idea of him being the one responsible for 'corrupting' Robin so to speak, since like you said it just seems like he'll get the brunt of the fallout. BUT, then again, considering how Bruce treated him in the first place, I feel this as more 'justified' in a way. That crime that Jason committed didn't equal the brutal punishment given, so let's pile on more crime, so it actually fits. :P
> 
> In all seriousness, the reveal made me more reassured for Damian since now his behavior makes a bit more sense, but in Jasons case I'm just worried. If the reasoning is that Damian is currently isolated thanks to Bruce being an ass as of late and coming to Jason for help since he knows he won't judge his 'darker' and more morally grey behavior then that's fine I think. BUT if they are gonna push too much of a Darth Vader/Emperor Palpatine dynamic here and make Jason seem like a horrible perpetrator of Damians darkness, off to the side whispering _'gooooooood, let the hate flow through you'_, then I'll be pissed.


Agreed. I like that we now have a new kind of interaction between Jason and Damian, one without the usual insult. Also I think there's an argument regarding whether Jason would support the secret dungeon or not. Ultimately though, I hope this doesn't end with the family making Damian see the light and antagonize Jason even further.

----------


## Zaresh

> Same, I'd love to see how they'd get along, but, I'm not sure I like the idea of him being the one responsible for 'corrupting' Robin so to speak, since like you said it just seems like he'll get the brunt of the fallout. BUT, then again, considering how Bruce treated him in the first place, I feel this as more 'justified' in a way. That crime that Jason committed didn't equal the brutal punishment given, so let's pile on more crime, so it actually fits. :P
> 
> In all seriousness, the reveal made me more reassured for Damian since now his behavior makes a bit more sense, but in Jasons case I'm just worried. If the reasoning is that Damian is currently isolated thanks to Bruce being an ass as of late and coming to Jason for help since he knows he won't judge his 'darker' and more morally grey behavior then that's fine I think. BUT if they are gonna push too much of a Darth Vader/Emperor Palpatine dynamic here and make Jason seem like a horrible perpetrator of Damians darkness, off to the side whispering _'gooooooood, let the hate flow through you'_, then I'll be pissed.


This is pretty much my own feels on the matter.

----------


## G-Potion

On the bright side, at least this proves that what happens to BM didn't go unnoticed by Jason. The how is another problem however.

----------


## RedBird

snippit.JPG

If the snippet about Damian from DC nation is to be believed then it looks like the prison is Damians choice and he's just comin to Jason for advice on how to manage this. Which, again, I don't think is too bad. It keeps Jason from seeming like a villain trying to corrupt a child and more like an older brother being like, SIGH well if your gonna break the rules you might as well do it right. It doesn't take away Damians agency since HE wanted this, and if Jasons status quo is to be acknowledged then so is Bruces who is apparently going off the deep end and having another mid life crisis, clearly not someone Damian feels is stable enough to handle his complex feelings on the matter of crime and punishment.

Although I resent that 'worst role model imaginable' remark DC, Jason was fantastic for Biz and you know it :P

----------


## Zaresh

> snippit.JPG
> 
> If the snippet about Damian from DC nation is to be believed then it looks like the prison is Damians choice and he's just comin to Jason for advice on how to manage this. Which, again, I don't think is too bad. It keeps Jason from seeming like a villain trying to corrupt a child and more like an older brother being like, SIGH well if your gonna break the rules you might as well do it right. It doesn't take away Damians agency since HE wanted this, and if Jasons status quo is to be acknowledged then so is Bruces who is apparently going off the deep end and having another mid life crisis, clearly not someone Damian feels is stable enough to handle his complex feelings on the matter of crime and punishment.
> 
> *Although I resent that 'worst role model imaginable' remark DC, Jason was fantastic for Biz and you know it :P*


That line hurts, but, eh, this is the same as solicits: it's unnecessary overdramatic and hyperbolic for the sake of impact.

----------


## Sergard

> Well, non-Batfam characters (except for Bruce and Dick) generally get me more excited. Off the top of my head, without thinking about it too much, I have Talia as my most wanted. Countdown team. Deathstroke because I've liked their team-ups in both N52 DS book and AK Genesis. John Constantine for some horror/mystic elements that I think would be fitting for Jason. I kind of want Superman too for some reasons.


All these names are basically on my list too (concerning the non-Batfamily characters. I can do without Bruce for the next 25 issues. I prefer Alfred or Damian). But Talia, Kyle (not necessarily with Donna), Deathstroke and John Constantine are on my list too. Thinking back it's a pity that Roy saved Jason from Bruce. If Bruce had put Jason in Arkham, he would have probably encountered Deathstroke. Constantine would be a good choice if Jason decides that he wants to know how he came back or if he has still a soul or not.

Wonder Woman could be interesting too. I'd like Jason to meet her brother - who is named Jason too (that could be a little bit problematic). I wonder how DC would handle a story with Jason Todd, Jason Prince and Jason Blood. That's a lot of Jason there.

A little while ago I read a fanfiction with Robin Jason leading the Teen Titans. If I remember correctly the members were Jason, Rose Wilson, Kid Devil, Kyle Rayner and Connor Hawke. That's why I put Connor on my list (with a question mark). Although in this continuity he is probably way younger then Jason. But I still want Connor Hawke to finally appear in Green Arrow.

----------


## G-Potion

I really hope it is Damian's choice as well. He gets to keep his agency and Jason tends to not tell people what they should or shouldn't do so it works out perfectly. Looks like they're both looking into The Other. I wonder if it's gonna be referenced in RHATO. That said, as long as their purpose remains just, Jason might still walk the ambiguous line and is yet to be cast as the bad guy.

----------


## Zaresh

Actually, it could be fun, having a storyline with Jason Blood and Constantine. Throw in Swamp Thing or, I dunno, Jaime Reyes, to add some contrast, and you could have interesting dynamics for a story about, let's see, an ancient curse in an archaeologic site, or a mysterious murder in an appartment for students complex or a slaughtering in pawnshop. Embrace the pulp genre in all its greatness  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aahz

> Wonder Woman could be interesting too. I'd like Jason to meet her brother - who is named Jason too (that could be a little bit problematic). I wonder how DC would handle a story with Jason Todd, Jason Prince and Jason Blood. That's a lot of Jason there.


There is also Jason Peter "Jay" Garrick.




> A little while ago I read a fanfiction with Robin Jason leading the Teen Titans. If I remember correctly the members were Jason, Rose Wilson, Kid Devil, Kyle Rayner and Connor Hawke. That's why I put Connor on my list (with a question mark). Although in this continuity he is probably way younger then Jason. But I still want Connor Hawke to finally appear in Green Arrow.


Btw. I still don't get while people like to ream him up with Kyle Rayner, based on countdown they can't stand each other (and he is more around Dick's age). 
The thing with Connor is, that he was already 18 when he first appeared (which would make him actually older than Jason), so unless they don't bring back a quite different Version of Connor who starts way younger, it should work.

----------


## Jackalope89

> All these names are basically on my list too (concerning the non-Batfamily characters. I can do without Bruce for the next 25 issues. I prefer Alfred or Damian). But Talia, Kyle (not necessarily with Donna), Deathstroke and John Constantine are on my list too. Thinking back it's a pity that Roy saved Jason from Bruce. If Bruce had put Jason in Arkham, he would have probably encountered Deathstroke. Constantine would be a good choice if Jason decides that he wants to know how he came back or if he has still a soul or not.
> 
> Wonder Woman could be interesting too. I'd like Jason to meet her brother - who is named Jason too (that could be a little bit problematic). I wonder how DC would handle a story with Jason Todd, Jason Prince and Jason Blood. That's a lot of Jason there.
> 
> A little while ago I read a fanfiction with Robin Jason leading the Teen Titans. If I remember correctly the members were Jason, Rose Wilson, Kid Devil, Kyle Rayner and Connor Hawke. That's why I put Connor on my list (with a question mark). Although in this continuity he is probably way younger then Jason. But I still want Connor Hawke to finally appear in Green Arrow.


I know she recently got spaced, literally, but Super Girl could be added to that list.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Finally could read TT.

To be honest, I like seeing Damian and Jason working together instead of bickering like spoiled brats over a freaking happy meal toy, but the entire idea goes against the premise of the Outlaw, undermining it, and I _hate_ being back at "Jason is a bad influence for everyone/anyone"

----------


## bell

I was not expecting to see Jason but it was nice

----------


## G-Potion

> Finally could read TT.
> 
> To be honest, I like seeing Damian and Jason working together instead of bickering like spoiled brats over a freaking happy meal toy, but the entire idea goes against the premise of the Outlaw, undermining it, and I _hate_ being back at "Jason is a bad influence for everyone/anyone"


Seriously hope it's just the way solicit was worded to keep the mentor identity a surprise. Jason was alright so far in the issue itself, even though it's not without controversy. But that's what you get when a character is pushed across titles. Let's see if this is DC effort to promote or undermine.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

lindatart

When Jason is caught in Gotham now :P

----------


## RedBird



----------


## RedBird



----------


## CPSparkles

> 


HaHa Jason is Spike.

----------


## Aioros22

Man, this week was pretty Jason-Damian heavy. Not bad.

----------


## Sergard

So far Jason doesn't feel like a mentor. More like an ally. He knows about Damian's prison (Damian calls it "my prison". So that was probably Damian's idea) and is fine with it.
And Damian doesn't only use it to imprison villains but to get information out of them about "The Other". At least in Black Mask's case.
I'm believing less and less that this is Roman Sionis' Black Mask. Damian's guy has a son with a "condition" (what does that even mean?) that he seems to care about. No way Roman Sionis would care that much about anyone.
"The Other" starts to sound like a very dangerous being.
*spoilers:*
Black Mask: "Some say he's just a man. Some say he's a god. Some say he's the devil himself. He was standing next to Longinus when he put the spear into Christ's side at the crucifixion. He led the Romanov's into the basement they were killed in. He was on the grassy knoll or whatever."
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

He feels a bit like a mentor. Probably feeding Damian information as well as giving interrogation tips. And he seems to care about how it's going with both Damian's team,base and prisoners. 

And yeah I agree. This Black Mask is sounding less and less like Sionis. 

If The Other is in RHATO later on, Jason's gonna be in big trouble, taking on them and the Underlife at the same time. And who knows how his emotional state will be after #27.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


Of course he couldn't stop at 4 words.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

http://ck-03.lofter.com/




http://dovee201.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://redland.lofter.com/




http://hellowloft.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://akmmmm.lofter.com

----------


## G-Potion

http://what-the-f-word.lofter.com/

----------


## RedBird

Beautiful stuff, also I still find it hilarious that there have only been like a handful of artists that actually use the canon hairstyle. XD

I can't blame em, hair is one of the funnest parts to draw imo. It can make such a big difference to your art work.

----------


## G-Potion

It's been a while since the last time I checked Chinese blogs. Tons of new art there.

----------


## Sergard

> If The Other is in RHATO later on, Jason's gonna be in big trouble, taking on them and the Underlife at the same time. And who knows how his emotional state will be after #27.


I don't think Jason will fight the Underlife and The Other in RHatO at the same time. Maybe he'll assist the Teen Titans fighting the Other while infiltrating the Underlife (or whatever he'll do) in RHatO. That seems more likely.
I can't imagine that The Other will appear in RHatO in the near future. He has to be introduced in Teen Titans first - and there are already Damian and Emiko who have a big interest in The Other. And depending on who The Other is, he could be a boring opponent for Jason.
Although at the moment it looks like The Other could be some magical creature. Maybe a demon. That would give Jason an opportunity to use his All-Blades.

I'm looking forward to Jason being introduced to the other teen titans. I'm curious how they will react. Jason hasn't met anyone of them before, or?

----------


## adrikito

JASON. I was surprised and happy for this revelation.. Better than use the Talia or Ra´s.. Too Predictable.




> I haven't read the issue. Is Jason aware of the secret dungeon? I wonder when it blows up in Damian's face will Jason get into even more trouble?


I am sure that he knows that.. They talked about Black Mask.

----------


## Arsenal

> JASON. I was surprised and happy for this revelation.. Better than use the Talia or Ra´s.. Too Predictable.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that he knows that.. They talked about Black Mask.


He says Black Mask's rotting in his prison and Jason doesn't even flinch so I'm sure Jason has a basic idea of what's going on in there

----------


## LP22

I really miss his rebirth costume

----------


## JasonTodd428

> It's been a while since the last time I checked Chinese blogs. Tons of new art there.


I really love all the fanart you (and others) post here. I'm looking forward to seeing what you share from those blogs if you are able to.

Also it was really great to see Jason in Teen Titans. I was certainly not expecting that to happen or for him to be Damian's mentor of sorts but it really fits. I'm very glad they didn't go a more obvious route with that like having Talia or Ra's involved with this.

----------


## Zaresh

> http://redland.lofter.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://hellowloft.lofter.com/


These two are really great (loving the style of the stroke in the first one, and the lighting and movement of the second). And the comic strip is funny, especially that last "bitch" punch. So many fanarts makes me so happy.

----------


## Digifiend

> I don't think Jason will fight the Underlife and The Other in RHatO at the same time. Maybe he'll assist the Teen Titans fighting the Other while infiltrating the Underlife (or whatever he'll do) in RHatO. That seems more likely.
> I can't imagine that The Other will appear in RHatO in the near future. He has to be introduced in Teen Titans first - and there are already Damian and Emiko who have a big interest in The Other. And depending on who The Other is, he could be a boring opponent for Jason.
> Although at the moment it looks like The Other could be some magical creature. Maybe a demon. That would give Jason an opportunity to use his All-Blades.
> 
> I'm looking forward to Jason being introduced to the other teen titans. I'm curious how they will react. Jason hasn't met anyone of them before, or?


Three of them were created for this run and haven't met any other superheroes, period. Red Arrow was mainly confined to Green Arrow and Wallace to Flash and TT, so no, I don't think anyone besides Damian has met Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

Celebrating the Jason-Damian team up.

https://twitter.com/super_avcd_

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/kamdamila

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## RedBird

_LOVE_

----------


## Aahz

Tim Seely seems really to like these "Arm Blades" he Jason use them again in the He-Man Injustice crossover.

----------


## Sergard

> Tim Seely seems really to like these "Arm Blades" he Jason use them again in the He-Man Injustice crossover.


I've seen that too and was surprised that someone remembered Jason's arm blades.
How often did Jason use them in RHatO? I only remember that scene at the very beginning of the old RHatO run (issue 2?) when he used them for "gliding" through the secret All-Caste entrance (although I don't understand how that could work).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I've seen that too and was surprised that someone remembered Jason's arm blades.
> How often did Jason use them in RHatO? I only remember that scene at the very beginning of the old RHatO run (issue 2?) when he used them for "gliding" through the secret All-Caste entrance (although I don't understand how that could work).


That was in fact, the only time he used them in the entire run.

----------


## KrustyKid

> _LOVE_


That's awesome, lol

----------


## G-Potion

> Tim Seely seems really to like these "Arm Blades" he Jason use them again in the He-Man Injustice crossover.


I noticed that too. Three times iirc, BR:Eternal, Wedding special and this.

----------


## G-Potion

> _LOVE_


That is simply amazing. JJMK comics keep getting better and better. That thumb up means Jason should be used to this by now haha.

----------


## Jackalope89

> _LOVE_


Awesome! 

Though, Jason could probably do with a trip to the chiropractor. lol

----------


## Arsenal

> Awesome! 
> 
> Though, Jason could probably do with a trip to the chiropractor. lol


Artemis isn’t a monter, obviously she patches him up after ragdolling him  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jackalope89

> Artemis isn’t a monter, obviously she patches him up after ragdolling him


Never said Artemis wasn't the chiropractor though...

----------


## oasis1313

> Never said Artemis wasn't the chiropractor though...


My chiropractor beats me up, too.  Pay for pain.

----------


## G-Potion

@一个不那么真诚的小号

----------


## kaimaciel

> @一个不那么真诚的小号


Oh my God! It's gorgeous! I want to have it on my wall!!

----------


## riddler123

Quick question.... Are there any trades that feature Jason stories pre-crisis. Particularly the introduction stories and Ressurection night.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Woods posted a few sneak peeks on his twitter for upcoming issues.

If this one is from #27, then we know who's the mysterious character that goes to see Jason.


https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...94360108736512


I still don't like the haircut. 
https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...21264655495169

----------


## G-Potion

I like it a lot but all I think of is the Jason flipping table in that JJMK art.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> I like it a lot but all I think of is the Jason flipping table in that JJMK art.


Yeah, that's a picture that will last in my mind too.

----------


## Alycat

> Woods posted a few sneak peeks on his twitter for upcoming issues.
> 
> If this one is from #27, then we know who's the mysterious character that goes to see Jason.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...94360108736512
> 
> 
> I still don't like the haircut. 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...21264655495169


I don't either. I would even take his Red Hood and Arsenal hairstyle over this.

----------


## Sergard

> Woods posted a few sneak peeks on his twitter for upcoming issues.
> 
> If this one is from #27, then we know who's the mysterious character that goes to see Jason.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...94360108736512
> 
> 
> I still don't like the haircut. 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...21264655495169


I can't decide if Batman's expression is grim, neutral or if he's smiling. If it's from #27, it still could be a flashback.

So far I haven't seen anybody liking the new haircut in the sense of looking good/pretty. But I like the meaning behind it, showing that Jason is mentally in a very dark place at the moment.

What exactly is Jason holding in the second picture? It looks very heavy and I'm not sure if Jason should be able to lift it.

I'm surprised that there isn't more (controversial) talk about Jason's appearance in Teen Titans. So far I've pretty much only seen positive comments about it.

----------


## Arsenal

> I can't decide if Batman's expression is grim, neutral or if he's smiling. If it's from #27, it still could be a flashback.
> 
> So far I haven't seen anybody liking the new haircut in the sense of looking good/pretty. But I like the meaning behind it, showing that Jason is mentally in a very dark place at the moment.
> 
> What exactly is Jason holding in the second picture? It looks very heavy and I'm not sure if Jason should be able to lift it.
> 
> I'm surprised that there isn't more (controversial) talk about Jason's appearance in Teen Titans. So far I've pretty much only seen positive comments about it.


Looks like a very large & heavy piece of wood that might be connecting with somebody’s body part.

----------


## RedBird

> What exactly is Jason holding in the second picture? It looks very heavy and I'm not sure if Jason should be able to lift it.


Looks to be a log. lol Strong boy.





> I'm surprised that there isn't more (controversial) talk about Jason's appearance in Teen Titans. So far I've pretty much only seen positive comments about it.


I get where you're coming from but when I really think about it, this outcome seemed to make the most amount of sense regarding who Damian reached out to. Considering the other names floating around were either Bane, Slade or Talia, all of which either being villains who have already tried taking Damian astray or in Banes case would have made Kings 'Bane constructed EVERYTHING' plot to infect the TT comic as well, an outcome I think most people are glad isn't the case from what I gather. I acknowledge though of course the comic could still go off the rails and disappoint, but aside that possibility which we'll have to wait for, and fears of Jasons motivations for this being some kind of evil ploy (dc strikes again), what else do you suppose could be controversial about the reveal?

----------


## Sergard

> I get where you're coming from but when I really think about it, this outcome seemed to make the most amount of sense regarding who Damian reached out to. Considering the other names floating around were either Bane, Slade or Talia, all of which either being villains who have already tried taking Damian astray or in Banes case would have made Kings 'Bane constructed EVERYTHING' plot to infect the TT comic as well, an outcome I think most people are glad isn't the case from what I gather. I acknowledge though of course the comic could still go off the rails and disappoint, but aside that possibility which we'll have to wait for, and fears of Jasons motivations for this being some kind of evil ploy (dc strikes again), what else do you suppose could be controversial about the reveal?


In-universe Jason makes sense and is a good choice, especially since most other speculations were villains. (Is Flashpoint Batman considered a villain? Some people speculated that it could be him.) And personally, I actually rooted for Jason being the mentor because I like the idea of Jason and Damian working together. But I expected some negative comments from people who don't like Jason in general.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1043983396731539456

They even listed Jason first on "Known associates"

 :Frown:

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1043983396731539456
> 
> They even listed Jason first on "Known associates"


I just read who else is going to die, supposedly.
Sigh.

----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1043983396731539456
> 
> They even listed Jason first on "Known associates"


 :Frown: 
Sucks that DC only honors their friendship now.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like we're getting a colorist. Good thing imo. The penciling in #26 was rough in a few places.

----------


## Zaresh

> Looks like we're getting a colorist. Good thing imo. The penciling in #26 was rough in a few places.


I just love how the team members added to he book keep getting invested and interested in Hood more and more.

I hope the colorist is choosed by him and fits his work. I liked his style, or his way of choosing colors, at least  :Smile: .

----------


## G-Potion

Jason gets a mention in the DC Anatomy of A Metahuman. Yay for acknowledging N52 RHATO.  :Embarrassment: 

@Multivac

----------


## G-Potion

http://ck-03.lofter.com/

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk



_
더도 말고 덜도 말고 늘 가윗날만 같아라.
No more, no less, always the same day._

----------


## Restingvoice

Just a sudden thought that Huntress now doesn't have a book maybe she should join Jason since she's also okay with killing. Plus it's a takeover from the days where people said it's Jason who should join Spyral.

----------


## Alycat

> Just a sudden thought that Huntress now doesn't have a book maybe she should join Jason since she's also okay with killing. Plus it's a takeover from the days where people said it's Jason who should join Spyral.


I'll take it. I just want her somewhere and written well. Being a Nu huntress fan is suffering  :Frown:

----------


## G-Potion

> Just a sudden thought that Huntress now doesn't have a book maybe she should join Jason since she's also okay with killing. Plus it's a takeover from the days where *people said it's Jason who should join Spyral*.


People said that? Personally I think Jason should either lead his own team, on his term, or go solo and do what he wants. Anyway. Don't think I'll hear the end of the "Jason steals Dick's friend" tune if Huntress joins.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> People said that? Personally I think Jason should either lead his own team, on his term, or go solo and do what he wants. Anyway. Don't think I'll hear the end of the "Jason steals Dick's friend" tune if Huntress joins.


I doubt will hear the end of that tune ever regardless (along with the "Jason's doing better at every other Robin's expense" tune) so I say bring it on.

----------


## RedBird

> Anyway. Don't think I'll hear the end of the "Jason steals Dick's friend" tune if Huntress joins.





> I doubt will hear the end of that tune ever regardless (along with the "Jason's doing better at every other Robin's expense" tune) so I say bring it on.



My mind is split in two by both these thoughts.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> My mind is split in two by both these thoughts.


I've had several fans of other Robins say to me that "Jason may be doing better but its at (insert their favorite Robin here) expense".

----------


## RedBird

> I've had several fans of other Robins say to me that "Jason may be doing better but its at (insert their favorite Robin here) expense.


Oh, no I believe you, I just can't decide which opinion mine falls under. 

The refusal to see Huntress on rhato due to the fact that (as history dictates) it would just lead to more of the same "Jason is taking Dick Friends' complaints since it's too late for Jason to have a connection to nu Huntress, now that she already has a connection to Dick.

Or of saying, screw it, those arguments won't go away anyway as long as Jason exists and riding it out regardless.

Can't decide which route I'd take.

----------


## RedBird

> Just a sudden thought that Huntress now doesn't have a book maybe she should join Jason since she's also okay with killing. Plus it's a takeover from the days where people said it's Jason who should join Spyral.


Whilst I'm always interested in seeing characters interact, in all honesty right now, I can't think of a reason within the characterization or even in the way the recent narrative for rhato has been to justify Huntress teaming up with RH for the long term. Since you posed the question RestingVoice, did you perhaps have any sort of ideas behind why this team up could have potential, beyond the similar morals that is?

----------


## Restingvoice

> People said that? Personally I think Jason should either lead his own team, on his term, or go solo and do what he wants. Anyway. Don't think I'll hear the end of the "Jason steals Dick's friend" tune if Huntress joins.


It was when Grayson was announced and people were wondering why Dick should join a spy team and using a gun when Jason would be more fitting




> Whilst I'm always interested in seeing characters interact, in all honesty right now, I can't think of a reason within the characterization or even in the way the recent narrative for rhato has been to justify Huntress teaming up with RH for the long term. Since you posed the question RestingVoice, did you perhaps have any sort of ideas behind why this team up could have potential, beyond the similar morals that is?


Nope. Literally just cross my mind and wrote it on a whim... but beside the moral, I just want to see them interact because while they did talk in Eternal, there's no bonding. I want to see what happens is pretty much the main reason.

----------


## RedBird

moon115115



amidachon

----------


## RedBird

> Nope. Literally just cross my mind and wrote it on a whim... but beside the moral, I just want to see them interact because while they did talk in Eternal, there's no bonding. I want to see what happens is pretty much the main reason.


Ha, fair enough. Well I suppose considering her new gruff _temperament_ in BOP, we'd end up getting something close to how Artemis started out in rhato, albeit with a little more uncontrolled/unchecked emotions. I guess I'd like to see this 'at first begrudging' but slowly formed friendship evolve between Jay and Helena.

----------


## Sergard

Didn't Huntress (together with Signal, I think) appear in the latest The Unexpected issue? Although I don't know if this was a one-issue-only thing or if she'll have more appearances. (I don't follow the comic.)
I had to read her wiki page because I didn't know anything about her character. I didn't even know she was in "Grayson" (haven't read that comic either) and only knew she was part of the Birds of Prey.
Is she considered part of the batfamily?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Didn't Huntress (together with Signal, I think) appear in the latest The Unexpected issue? Although I don't know if this was a one-issue-only thing or if she'll have more appearances. (I don't follow the comic.)
> I had to read her wiki page because I didn't know anything about her character. I didn't even know she was in "Grayson" (haven't read that comic either) and only knew she was part of the Birds of Prey.
> Is she considered part of the batfamily?


She did but as far as I know it's a guest star.
Huntress traditionally is a bat family but I don't know about the current version. She's close to the Birds and Dick, but when they first met Batman didn't know who she is, and I'm not sure if the rest of the fam know.

----------


## G-Potion

> moon115115
> amidachon


Gaaah this is fireee.

----------


## G-Potion

Pete Woods interview. 

https://www.thecomiclounge.com/singl...Under-the-Hood




> I think hes also capable of going into dark places and come out of them intact whereas other Bat Family members might risk losing themselves.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh, no I believe you, I just can't decide which opinion mine falls under. 
> 
> The refusal to see Huntress on rhato due to the fact that (as history dictates) it would just lead to more of the same "Jason is taking Dick Friends' complaints since it's too late for Jason to have a connection to nu Huntress, now that she already has a connection to Dick.
> 
> Or of saying, screw it, those arguments won't go away anyway as long as Jason exists and riding it out regardless.
> 
> Can't decide which route I'd take.


Even though I said the former line, JasonTodd428's is the way to go. Some of the hate has reached irrational levels and you can't do a thing about it. Even wearing a mask got him a complaint that he copied _Dick_. Just keep supporting what you love and tune out the noises I guess.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hum, other than clearing up he will be on the book for at least one arc, it doesn't shed much light on what we can expect from him during his tenure.

----------


## G-Potion

His observation on the character is nice though.

----------


## Zaresh

I finished my pic. My scanner makes a mess of everything I try to scan, but what can I do. Still, you can get an idea of how it looks IRL.

Link to my Tumblr post that links to my DA with a bigger pic and detailed info.
red and robin and hood final.jpg

----------


## Restingvoice

> Even though I said the former line, JasonTodd428's is the way to go. Some of the hate has reached irrational levels and you can't do a thing about it. Even wearing a mask got him a complaint that he copied _Dick_. Just keep supporting what you love and tune out the noises I guess.


Yep. The only legit criticism about Dick losing friends should be directed at the people who mismanaged him during New 52. The ones who erased his Titans past and so on. Targeting hate to fictional characters like Jason is just dumb.

----------


## Sergard

Red Devil appears in the "Raven: Daughter of Darkness" #8 preview. And it does not look good for Jason's old pen pal (if this is really Eddie. But I don't know any other Red Devil.)
http://www.multiversitycomics.com/pr...of-darkness-8/

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Even though I said the former line, JasonTodd428's is the way to go. Some of the hate has reached irrational levels and you can't do a thing about it. Even wearing a mask got him a complaint that he copied _Dick_. Just keep supporting what you love and tune out the noises I guess.


Yeah, I'm just gonna support the character and try to ignore the complaints if I can manage it. Of course that's easier said than done when they are blaming a fictional character for their favorites' problems over the people involved in the decision making at DC who are, after all, the ones responsible. 




> Yep. The only legit criticism about Dick losing friends should be directed at the people who mismanaged him during New 52. The ones who erased his Titans past and so on. Targeting hate to fictional characters like Jason is just dumb.


I agree. Unfortunately, Jason's been a divisive character since day one regardless of whether we're talking about pre-Crisis or post and a lot of people hated him back in the day simply because he "replaced" Dick as Robin. So there's already a long standing grudge against the character on the part of some fans. (Heck, I know some people on this very forum are oh so proud of having voted "no" in the infamous poll that killed him.) I think some of the hate he gets currently might be a carry over from that time even.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I finished my pic. My scanner makes a mess of everything I try to scan, but what can I do. Still, you can get an idea of how it looks IRL.
> 
> Link to my Tumblr post that links to my DA with a bigger pic and detailed info.
> red and robin and hood final.jpg


Love the pic Zaresh.

----------


## Zaresh

> Love the pic Zaresh.


Your love is very much appreciated :3 (I love that you liked it  :Big Grin: )

----------


## Restingvoice

> I agree. Unfortunately, Jason's been a divisive character since day one regardless of whether we're talking about pre-Crisis or post and a lot of people hated him back in the day simply because he "replaced" Dick as Robin. So there's already a long standing grudge against the character on the part of some fans. (Heck, I know some people on this very forum are oh so proud of having voted "no" in the infamous poll that killed him.) I think some of the hate he gets currently might be a carry over from that time even.


Then there's people who don't like him being resurrected, which most likely the same people who wanted him killed, the people who dislike him because he doesn't follow Batman's rules, the people who don't like him being accepted in the family because it compromises either Bruce's or Jason's integrity, and the people who don't like him having friends because they prefer him solo... 

I never counted them like that before, but yeah, there's so many divisions, even among people who likes him.

----------


## RedBird

> Even though I said the former line, JasonTodd428's is the way to go. Some of the hate has reached irrational levels and you can't do a thing about it. Even wearing a mask got him a complaint that he copied _Dick_. Just keep supporting what you love and tune out the noises I guess.


Oh, its no worries, I was actually being more sarcastic about the issue and displaying the nonsensical logic behind it. It is ridiculous, I know. I've loved Jasons character since he was robin, been tuning out complaints all the way from before he ever blew up (popularity wise that is :P).

----------


## G-Potion

> I finished my pic. My scanner makes a mess of everything I try to scan, but what can I do. Still, you can get an idea of how it looks IRL.
> 
> Link to my Tumblr post that links to my DA with a bigger pic and detailed info.
> red and robin and hood final.jpg


It's so vibrant despite being a night scene. The shading on big Jason is pretty nice as well. I don't think I can do it that well with traditional tools. And I just wanna grab Bat's ears.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zaresh

> It's so vibrant despite being a night scene. The shading on big Jason is pretty nice as well. I don't think I can do it that well with traditional tools. And I just wanna grab Bat's ears.


Bat-ears are cute. In the AK costume Jason had there, they were distracting. It makes you want to pet that helmet xD.

Shading is possible with the right tools. Soft colored pencils, like the water soluble or the pastels, are great for blending and shading if you layer them escalating one upon the other. And of course, gouache, watercolours, acrylics... Any liquid painting can do. What is tricky with traditional media that is not in digital is making the colours feel vibrant, because you cannot use certain ones that are, well, lights. You lack light, so many pinks and cyans are out of reach,. But even so, you can work what you have to highlight some others that will look luminous, by muting many others, white included, for example.

Thanks for liking it. It really means a lot for me if you like, guys ^_^. Specially lately: things aren't going well and drawing puts my mind at ease.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Just read HIC#1

Roy deserved better. 

And yes, the whole thing is a mess.

----------


## Zaresh

> Just read HIC#1
> 
> Roy deserved better. 
> 
> And yes, the whole thing is a mess.


And *spoilers:*
Wally.
*end of spoilers* But that doesn't matter here.
I... Seriously, this looked a lot better when it was first announded, months ago. This... This is a mess that will make unhappy a lot of people. Even with pretty art.

----------


## Aahz

> I... Seriously, this looked a lot better when it was first announded, months ago.


Thats basically the case with most of the stuff King has put out.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not much change on the new logo

----------


## Aioros22

That`s like being surprised of someone hurting himself over a free fall. It was telegraphed miles away. 

Haven`t read it yet but Tom King and Gold. 

Here we go again.

So yeah. Artwork is bloody fantastic but this feels like Identity Crisis 2.0. Time will tell if this is a rehash or the improvement. 

Booster`s part wasn`t terrible but I don`t necessarily think it makes sense of his costume being easily shredded by a kitchen knife (like, what is the point then?) but that is hardly absolute and there is precedence even from Jurgens. 

Non-ironically, from another bat villain.

----------


## Zaresh

> That`s like being surprised of someone hurting himself over a free fall. It was telegraphed miles away.


I mean, the original idea, as a concept, could have been neat, if well written and with an introsopective purpose. I should've known better :/.

----------


## Aioros22

I just mean Roy dying. The moment Loedbell wrote his farewell words in the Annual, it was obvious he was buying it. 

The concept of a Sanctuary in a superhero frame is neat, it really is, but by making this IC 2.0 you won`t see it coming to fruition because it`s just the backdoor to a crime story.

----------


## Sergard

The only good thing this week is Artemis' new weapon in WW 55. Some mean part of me hopes that she'll use it in RHatO (on Jason, for shenanigans).

----------


## G-Potion

> Not much change on the new logo


This artwork looks real good on the cover however.

----------


## Zaresh

> This artwork looks real good on the cover however.


We're having such a good luck with all the covers.

----------


## Alycat

> The only good thing this week is Artemis' new weapon in WW 55. Some mean part of me hopes that she'll use it in RHatO (on Jason, for shenanigans).


Didn't know she was in WW this week. Gonna check it out. I miss her and Jason's banter.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Didn't know she was in WW this week. Gonna check it out. I miss her and Jason's banter.


Yeah, she's been in the last few issues. Though, Orlando dialed her character back to pre-Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth, and no mention of Bizarro or Jason. Which is odd, as Artemis has the Bow of Ra in it, and had left the Bana Amazons and Quracis on a peaceful note.

----------


## RedBird

> Just read HIC#1
> 
> Roy deserved better. 
> 
> And yes, the whole thing is a mess.


Really that bad?
I saw some panels already spoiling the death scenes but I was still kinda curious to see the story, but like, is it really not worth the purchase? 




> Not much change on the new logo


Figured there wouldn't be, the removal of 'and the' and 's' were simplistic changes made for the sake of marketing the new arc but I'm not too surprised they didn't change the bat logo within the RED HOOD, changing the graphic logo and _major branding_ for a comic that was going down a temporary road and isn't a new book overall would have been a waste of time.

----------


## RedBird

Now there's an UTRH au :P

ameeg

----------


## RedBird

> The only good thing this week is Artemis' new weapon in WW 55. Some mean part of me hopes that she'll use it in RHatO (on Jason, for shenanigans).


Haha, okay I finally read the issue. NOW this joke makes sense  :Big Grin: 

For anyone wondering *spoilers:*
Diana gifted Artemis the 'Lasso of Submission', in the process renaming it to 'The Golden Promise'. It's a magical lasso which Diana had originally took from Superwoman since it was too dangerous and powerful in her hands. It has enhanced strength and the ability to compel obedience and even love from its capture.
*end of spoilers*

Even if it's not used for those shenanigans, I do hope it shows up in rhato (eventually) regardless, seems useful.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Haha, okay I finally read the issue. NOW this joke makes sense 
> 
> For anyone wondering *spoilers:*
> Diana gifted Artemis the 'Lasso of Submission', in the process renaming it to 'The Golden Promise'. It's a magical lasso which Diana had originally took from Superwoman since it was too dangerous and powerful in her hands. It has enhanced strength and the ability to compel obedience and even love from its capture.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Even if it's not used for those shenanigans, I do hope it shows up in rhato (eventually) regardless, seems useful.


it seems broken

----------


## Zaresh

> Haha, okay I finally read the issue. NOW this joke makes sense 
> 
> For anyone wondering *spoilers:*
> Diana gifted Artemis the 'Lasso of Submission', in the process renaming it to 'The Golden Promise'. It's a magical lasso which Diana had originally took from Superwoman since it was too dangerous and powerful in her hands. It has enhanced strength and the ability to compel obedience and even love from its capture.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Even if it's not used for those shenanigans, I do hope it shows up in rhato (eventually) regardless, seems useful.


Ha ha ha. Ay. This would be so fun as gag fuel. Poor Jason, he would be like the main  in a romcom-esque shounen. Or Full Metal Panic, hmm. Yeah, that sounds fitting.

----------


## Sergard

> Really that bad?
> I saw some panels already spoiling the death scenes but I was still kinda curious to see the story, but like, is it really not worth the purchase?


I don't know how hyped you are about the title but my advice would be to wait a few issues and see how people react as the story progresses. At the moment it's not worth the purchase (in my opinion).





> Figured there wouldn't be, the removal of 'and the' and 's' were simplistic changes made for the sake of marketing the new arc but I'm not too surprised they didn't change the bat logo within the RED HOOD, changing the graphic logo and _major branding_ for a comic that was going down a temporary road and isn't a new book overall would have been a waste of time.


I, actually, had hoped that DC would replace both bat logos with the new Red Hood one to make Jason's character more independent of the Batman franchise.

----------


## Zaresh

> I don't know how hyped you are about the title but my advice would be to wait a few issues and see how people react as the story progresses. At the moment it's not worth the purchase (in my opinion).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I, actually, had hoped that DC would replace both bat logos with the new Red Hood one to make Jason's character more independent of the Batman franchise.


I was on the opposite side, actually; would have loved have they let the tittle like in issue #26. It was more fun and, I don't know, clever, I guess. Or snarky. I don't know how to translate the feel I mean.

----------


## adrikito

For those who didn´t know that.. *Red Hood: The Fan Series EPISODE 2*(Damian and Jason interaction again):

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I was looking at Yasmine Putri's IG, and I noticed she has a Joker picture tagged as #DCComics and #WIP

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnSGZNCH...by=yaswhodraws

Pretty interesting implications if is for 28's variant, considering the solicit.




> Welcome to the Underlife, Jason Todd—you probably won’t survive! Banished from Gotham City and estranged from the Outlaws, Red Hood takes up residence in Appleton, a would-be American town that’s a secret haven for the criminal operators. *When RH gets his hands on a crowbar* and starts handing out some bloody justice, it really stirs up the hornet’s nest. And when a new Underlife member is introduced, Jason’s gonna get stung by the trouble he caused.

----------


## Zaresh

> I was looking at Yasmine Putri's IG, and I noticed she has a Joker picture tagged as #DCComics and #WIP
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BnSGZNCH...by=yaswhodraws
> 
> Pretty interesting implications if is for 28's variant, considering the solicit.


Also, the last sentence in that solicit; but I guess Joker is too big of a name to strongly tie him down to Jason's book instead of Bruce's.

----------


## RedBird

Sure getting a lot of fan art mileage outta that 10 second clip

hellredsky

----------


## RedBird

astraea-f-blueblack



_Jason Todd in his thirties from Mother Panic: Gotham A.D._

----------


## RedBird

@Lafarge_Iash

----------


## kaimaciel

https://66.media.tumblr.com/7e4b9835...0azo1_1280.png
"Batman: Curse of the White Knight
“For Batman: Curse of the White Knight, I’m rewriting a former Batman ally to become a threat far greater than the Joker ever was” - Sean Murphy

In this explosive sequel to Sean Murphy’s critically acclaimed blockbuster Batman: White Knight, the Joker recruits a savage partner to help him expose a shocking revelation about the Wayne family’s legacy and run Gotham into the ground,“ reads DC’s description “As Batman rushes to protect the city and his loved ones from this corrupt conspiracy, the mystery of his ancestry unravels and deals a devastating blow to the Dark Knight. Exciting new villains and unexpected allies will clash across history in this unforgettable chapter of the White Knight saga - and the truth about the blood they shed will shake Gotham to its core! "

Please don't tell they're pulling an Arkham Knight. Again.

----------


## RedBird

> https://66.media.tumblr.com/7e4b9835...0azo1_1280.png
> "Batman: Curse of the White Knight
> “For Batman: Curse of the White Knight, I’m rewriting a former Batman ally to become a threat far greater than the Joker ever was” - Sean Murphy
> 
> In this explosive sequel to Sean Murphy’s critically acclaimed blockbuster Batman: White Knight, the Joker recruits a savage partner to help him expose a shocking revelation about the Wayne family’s legacy and run Gotham into the ground,“ reads DC’s description “As Batman rushes to protect the city and his loved ones from this corrupt conspiracy, the mystery of his ancestry unravels and deals a devastating blow to the Dark Knight. Exciting new villains and unexpected allies will clash across history in this unforgettable chapter of the White Knight saga - and the truth about the blood they shed will shake Gotham to its core! "
> 
> Please don't tell they're pulling an Arkham Knight. Again.


I will actually laugh if it is.
Also what's Azraels role in this story? I assumed he was the 'ally, turned threat'.

----------


## adrikito

Under Red Hood and.. Young Justice?
Red Hood Jason  ToddArsenal Roy.jpg

----------


## Alycat

> astraea-f-blueblack
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason Todd in his thirties from Mother Panic: Gotham A.D._



This pic is almost too handsome to look it.

----------


## Zaresh

> This pic is almost too handsome to look it.


Mmm, yeah, I concur.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk



_Jason and Roy_

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason and Roy_


 :Frown: 


Issue 27 is going to be such a kick in the balls.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Issue 27 is going to be such a kick in the balls.


And ovaries. 

Oh my God... I wonder if will be Tim who contacts him and also tells what happened to Dick.

----------


## Arsenal

> And ovaries. 
> 
> Oh my God... I wonder if will be Tim who contacts him and also tells what happened to Dick.


... I never even considered that the bad news Jason receives would involve Dick

----------


## Sergard

> And ovaries. 
> 
> Oh my God... I wonder if will be Tim who contacts him and also tells what happened to Dick.


I prefer Tim over Bruce. There is already enough bad blood between Jason and Bruce - Roy being killed in a facility co-founded by Batman and Dick getting shot while trying to cheer up Batman doesn't help to resolve this tension.
Bruce delivering the bad news would only make things escalate more.

----------


## RedBird

> I prefer Tim over Bruce. There is already enough bad blood between Jason and Bruce - Roy being killed in a facility co-founded by Batman and Dick getting shot while trying to cheer up Batman doesn't help to resolve this tension.
> Bruce delivering the bad news would only make things escalate more.


Perhaps that's kinda the point, making Jason really lose it, assuming Bruce is the one to break the news or even just show up in issue #27.

----------


## Aioros22

If Jason isn`t the one who hunts down the muther who did it, I`ll be really dissapointed.

----------


## Aioros22

> Sure getting a lot of fan art mileage outta that 10 second clip
> 
> hellredsky


Bringing the hype to a very unhype show.

----------


## Zaresh

> If Jason isn`t the one who hunts down the muther who did it, I`ll be really dissapointed.


It's a story, written by King. I think you are going to feel disappointment, because I, at least, have a hard time picturing him, Batman's current writer, who is a well known fan of Dick, choosing Jason to go after the murderers.

----------


## Aioros22

Oh, I`m ready to be dissapointed. At the very least I hope they get Booster to do that but even that one is not looking bright.

----------


## Jackalope89

If anyone is gonna shoot Dick, its Jason, dammit! 

But with losing Artemis and Bizarro to, wherever they are, Roy being murdered, and now Dick getting shot in the head, Jason is running out of friendly faces. 

I know he and Damian are kind of working together in Teen Titans, but I don't think the two ever really got along too much. Or even interacted much. I think its more of like-minded individuals sharing info than brothers. But, that's just a personal opinion.

----------


## Arsenal

> If anyone is gonna shoot Dick, its Jason, dammit! 
> 
> But with losing Artemis and Bizarro to, wherever they are, Roy being murdered, and now Dick getting shot in the head, Jason is running out of friendly faces. 
> 
> I know he and Damian are kind of working together in Teen Titans, but I don't think the two ever really got along too much. Or even interacted much. I think its more of like-minded individuals sharing info than brothers. But, that's just a personal opinion.


Who’d ever think we see the day where Damian of all people is the closest thing Jason has to an ally left on Earth.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

When Roy comes back, it should be because Jason went to hell and back to get him into a Lazarus Pit.

----------


## Alycat

The only person who should be bringing back Roy is Olly. No Dick, no Jason, and I can't think of anyone else anyway.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

They aren't even that close in Rebirth, Jason makes more sense.  And he actually has experience with coming back from the dead.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The only person who should be bringing back Roy is Olly. No Dick, no Jason, and I can't think of anyone else anyway.


Roy and Donna "dated", for all of a couple panels. And then broken up off panel next time we saw either of them.

----------


## Alycat

> They aren't even that close in Rebirth, Jason makes more sense.  And he actually has experience with coming back from the dead.


And that's sad to me. I can't support Dick/Jason over each other with Roy either way.




> Roy and Donna "dated", for all of a couple panels. And then broken up off panel next time we saw either of them.


Oh yeah I forgot about that mess. That was some awful garbage. Let's forget about it.

----------


## Sergard

If the Lazarus Pit really was an option, wouldn't the Trinity use it to revive all victims anyway? But Jason could try to find out how he came back - like Bruce wanted when Damian was dead.

----------


## RedBird

Another sort of, ' in honor of their recent team up' fan art

@komieci

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk








_Nevermind, partnership over XD_

----------


## G-Potion

That jjmk one is genius. XD

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Ssstammerer

Looks familiar.

----------


## Zaresh

> jjmk-jjmk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Nevermind, partnership over XD_


These keep getting better and better. Hilarious XD.

----------


## Rise

> The only person who should be bringing back Roy is Olly. No Dick, no Jason, and I can't think of anyone else anyway.


Pretty much. It's going to be really ooc for Jason to put Roy in LP especially considering that he stated multiple times that he never wanted to be back and it's going to be pretty selfish of him to do it against someone else's will.

Also, I don't think he is going to have a reaction to what happened in the latest issue of Batman. Why would he?

----------


## Arsenal

> Pretty much. It's going to be really ooc for Jason to put Roy in LP especially considering that he stated multiple times that he never wanted to be back and it's going to be pretty selfish of him to do it against someone else's will.
> 
> Also, I don't think he is going to have a reaction to what happened in the latest issue of Batman. Why would he?


He might have problems with Bruce, but (as far as I know) he still likes Dick. Why wouldn’t he have a reaction to finding out he got shot in the head?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Pretty much. It's going to be really ooc for Jason to put Roy in LP especially considering that he stated multiple times that he never wanted to be back and it's going to be pretty selfish of him to do it against someone else's will.
> 
> Also, I don't think he is going to have a reaction to what happened in the latest issue of Batman. Why would he?


Like Arsenal said, Jason is not on good terms with Bruce, but going by his last interactions with Dick, the two oldest Bat Bros. are on good terms (if not as close as they could be). Jason may look into hunting the hitman down himself.

----------


## Zaresh

Honestly, I would just wait and see. My experience reading these kind of things tells me that, most probably, the only one who will react in his book, and only in his book, next month, is going to be Jason, and maybe to the two things--Roy's and Dick's--, but only because Lobdell is also writing Nightwing now. I wouldn't count in Jason going all his way to go and put Roy in a pit, for the very same reasons Rise already pointed out. And I think Olly already reacted past month (or was it this month early on?) in his book, when he looked back at Roy's behaviour when he was with him. I wouldn't put it past Oliver if he were and dropped Roy in a pit: as far as I know Oliver's character, it's the kind of well intended but definitely bad idea that he could pull out. But it seems he will not, by what solicits say, right? Besides, it's not like you can find a free lazarus pit at the next corner down the street XD.

Just let's wait and see. I'm definitely not going to expect anything too elaborated or epic or reactive, despite being a hopeful person myself. But who knows.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> If the Lazarus Pit really was an option, wouldn't the Trinity use it to revive all victims anyway? But Jason could try to find out how he came back - like Bruce wanted when Damian was dead.


You and I both know that out all the confirmed kills in issue 1, only Wally and Roy have a chance of coming back.




> Pretty much. It's going to be really OOC for Jason to put Roy in LP especially considering that he stated multiple times that he never wanted to be back and it's going to be pretty selfish of him to do it against someone else's will.
> 
> Also, I don't think he is going to have a reaction to what happened in the latest issue of Batman. Why would he?


Not really. Jason thinks he should have not come back due to his own self-esteem issues, but Roy? He thinks Roy is everything he is not, and certainly someone that deserves to recover what was so unfairly take away from him. To not mention the added guilt of "I should've gone with him".




> Honestly, I would just wait and see. My experience reading these kind of things tells me that, most probably, the only one who will react in his book, and only in his book, next month, is going to be Jason, and maybe to the two things--Roy's and Dick's--, but only because Lobdell is also writing Nightwing now. I wouldn't count in Jason going all his way to go and put Roy in a pit, for the very same reasons Rise already pointed out. And I think Olly already reacted past month (or was it this month early on?) in his book, when he looked back at Roy's behaviour when he was with him. I wouldn't put it past Oliver if he were and dropped Roy in a pit: as far as I know Oliver's character, it's the kind of well intended but definitely bad idea that he could pull out. But it seems he will not, by what solicits say, right? Besides, it's not like you can find a free lazarus pit at the next corner down the street XD.
> 
> Just let's wait and see. I'm definitely not going to expect anything too elaborated or epic or reactive, despite being a hopeful person myself. But who knows.


Considering Lobdell just got the Nightwing gig and issue 27 has been finished for a while now, I wouldn't count with Nightwing's situation being acknowledged.

----------


## Zaresh

> Considering Lobdell just got the Nightwing gig and issue 27 has been finished for a while now, I wouldn't count with Nightwing's situation being acknowledged.


True, so it will be Roy alone, probably. Welp.

----------


## Alycat

Reminds me of when Dick died the first time around and wasn't really acknowledge. At least everyone paid some type pf attention to Tim's "death" even if it barely mattered.

----------


## byrd156

> Reminds me of when Dick died the first time around and wasn't really acknowledge. At least everyone paid some type pf attention to Tim's "death" even if it barely mattered.


That's because Dick didn't really die and DC didn't want to do the leg work to figure who would be effected by it since the universe was (and is) very screwed up with it's characters, continuity, and relationships. There was the unfinished Nightwing #30 that was a fake funeral issue that had Starfire and Roy, I think the only people outside of the bat-family. Other than that he just went off to Grayson to do his spy thing.

----------


## kaimaciel

So...

tumblr_pfwnraj5CN1sklwwvo1_1280.jpg

This happened.

----------


## Aahz

> You and I both know that out all the confirmed kills in issue 1, only Wally and Roy have a chance of coming back.


I think some of the other have a chance of coming back due to the writers forgetting that they died in the first place.
With Booster andWally involved there might of course also some time travel stuff going on.

----------


## Sergard

> So...
> 
> tumblr_pfwnraj5CN1sklwwvo1_1280.jpg
> 
> This happened.


... Yeah, definitely don't want King to write Jason.
Someone in the comments wrote as answer "Honestly? I wish he did love himself." - at least someone who understands the character.

----------


## Rise

> He might have problems with Bruce, but (as far as I know) he still likes Dick. Why wouldn’t he have a reaction to finding out he got shot in the head?





> Like Arsenal said, Jason is not on good terms with Bruce, but going by his last interactions with Dick, the two oldest Bat Bros. are on good terms (if not as close as they could be). Jason may look into hunting the hitman down himself.


Well, the supposedly "brother" who he is in "good" terms with didn't have any reaction to what happened to him with Batman so why should Jason?

I don't know about you, but I also don't want more freaking pointless drama in this book. He is already dealing with him finding the truth about his father, his fallout with Batman, losing Artemis and Bizarro and now Roy (not to mention tge upcoming drama with the joker). It's not worth adding Dick who Jason was never close to anyway. 




> Not really. Jason thinks he should have not come back due to his own self-esteem issues, but Roy? He thinks Roy is everything he is not, and certainly someone that deserves to recover what was so unfairly take away from him. To not mention the added guilt of "I should've gone with him".


Yes really. When Bizarro died (who Jason feel responsible for), Jason wanted to bring him back and then forced himself to let him go before Luthor showed up. He would be upest, but it's going to be a character regression if he become obessed with bringing him back.

Also, we already know from the solicits that Jason is going to foucs on the mission.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason's first impulse was to find a pit, it was Artemis the one who talked him out of it.

And yeah I do know editorial won't bring back Roy right now, they need to keep the appearances of HiC mattering. That's why I also doubt they will use time travel to hit the reset button.

----------


## Zaresh

> ... Yeah, definitely don't want King to write Jason.
> Someone in the comments wrote as answer "Honestly? I wish he did love himself." - at least someone who understands the character.


The sad thing is, most Batman readers probably see Jason in a similar way (Jason being arrogant and only loving himself). They don't care for the character, so, why trying to know him? This works for most people and most characters, unfortunately. It shouldn't happen with writers for avoiding this tho. I mean: you can disregard continuity, or some aspect of the history of that character because they don't benefit the story you want to tell, but you need to know well that character's character, their personality, their mood and behaviour, their way of processing thoughts; because if not, if doesn't matter if you can write the most amazing story because the fans will not like it,. and feel betrayed. And that, in the long therm, is going to kill that character as a brand (and so selling less each time). It doesn't damage the writers exactly, but it slowly also affect their credibility.

Or at least that's how I see it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

From GA #45 Preview



 :Frown:

----------


## Sergard

Here is the whole preview of GA #45.
https://screenrant.com/green-arrow-c...y-harper-dead/
I can't identify all people at the funeral but as I see it Barbara is the only member of the batfamily attending (I don't count Helena as member of the batfamily).

----------


## Alycat

> Here is the whole preview of GA #45.
> https://screenrant.com/green-arrow-c...y-harper-dead/
> I can't identify all people at the funeral but as I see it Barbara is the only member of the batfamily attending (I don't count Helena as member of the batfamily).


Makes sense. Helena is there for Dinah and she def ain't Batfam anymore. Dick is like "Roy who?" and Jason's off being buff.

----------


## Aahz

> Makes sense. Helena is there for Dinah and she def ain't Batfam anymore. Dick is like "Roy who?" and Jason's off being buff.


Jason also didn't went to Tims funeral.

I'm trying to figure out how the people at the funeral are:
- On the left are imo the remaning Titans Donna, Lilith, Garth and Gnarrk(?)
- next we have the Birds of Prey Barbara, Helena and Dinah
- than Olli
- behind Olli maybe Diggle and Emiko ??
- than in front Bruce?, Hal ?, Diana, Clark and John Steward (or is that supposed to be Diggle)
- I have no Idea who the 3 people behind them are
- And in the Background the between the trees is Jade

----------


## G-Potion

> The sad thing is, most Batman readers probably see Jason in a similar way (Jason being arrogant and only loving himself). They don't care for the character, so, why trying to know him? This works for most people and most characters, unfortunately. It shouldn't happen with writers for avoiding this tho. I mean: you can disregard continuity, or some aspect of the history of that character because they don't benefit the story you want to tell, but you need to know well that character's character, their personality, their mood and behaviour, their way of processing thoughts; because if not, if doesn't matter if you can write the most amazing story because the fans will not like it,. and feel betrayed. And that, in the long therm, is going to kill that character as a brand (and so selling less each time). It doesn't damage the writers exactly, but it slowly also affect their credibility.
> 
> Or at least that's how I see it.


I just read a tumblr post on King, how HiC is handled and that disregarding a character's character is also a thing in his other books (Vision included). Looks like more and more people are seeing the pattern and getting fed up. I'm staying away from HiC until I know the conclusion.

----------


## G-Potion

> From GA #45 Preview


 :Frown: 

I hope Ollie and Jason speak. Tumblr source seems to imply that they will.

----------


## Godlike13

If Cheshire can show up, I don’t see why Jason couldn’t make it.

----------


## Alycat

> I just read a tumblr post on King, how HiC is handled and that disregarding a character's character is also a thing in his other books (Vision included). Looks like more and more people are seeing the pattern and getting fed up. I'm staying away from HiC until I know the conclusion.


Except Vision was a good series. Of Course tumblr, seems to hate most of Kings stuff for some dumb reason or the other. While I dunno about how HIC will turn out. I hate killing heroes it always seems dumb or cheap.

----------


## G-Potion

> Except Vision was a good series. Of Course tumblr, seems to hate most of Kings stuff for some dumb reason or the other. While I dunno about how HIC will turn out. I hate killing heroes it always seems dumb or cheap.


I don't read Vision so can't comment on it. But I do think that you can have a quality story and still do a disservice to a character. King is imo more of a 'molding characters to fit his theme' than the other way around after all.

----------


## Restingvoice

Also, if a person's reason for reading or liking a character is a particular trait of the character, changing it means erasing the reason they like it, even if the story's good. The best they can say will be "the story is good, but this is the wrong character to do it"

----------


## Zaresh

> If Cheshire can show up, I don’t see why Jason couldn’t make it.


He probably doesn't know yet. Or doesn't want to risk being caught by Bruce. Or cannot deal with the pain of being there. Could be any of these.




> I just read a tumblr post on King, how HiC is handled and that disregarding a character's character is also a thing in his other books (Vision included). Looks like more and more people are seeing the pattern and getting fed up. I'm staying away from HiC until I know the conclusion.





> Except Vision was a good series. Of Course tumblr, seems to hate most of Kings stuff for some dumb reason or the other. While I dunno about how HIC will turn out. I hate killing heroes it always seems dumb or cheap.


I like The Vision, the book he wrote. I like it a lot, it's a really good book. As far as I know, Vision wasn't very out of character, but apparently King didn't take some parts of his development as a character over the years into consideration (I'm not familiar enough with the character to know in depth). Same happened for Wanda, and that one I definitely can vouch for. But it wasn't something realy drastic either. I think people usually complain more about Kyle in Omega Men, but I don't know him well enough to know for sure. In any case, neither are as deep of a spin in characterization as is his Mister Miracle, and people say that book is turning a bit of a letdown (I decided to wait for the whole story to end after issue 3). It's going to hurt King credit, probably, if it's not hurting him already. I think it's sad, because I really, really like Scott and Barda, they're lovely and have a lot of potential for stories; it could've been a good chance to give them some good exposire, and despite all the stuff that was... off, I liked what I was reading, as a mystery story, if not as a accurate depiction of the characters.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> Just read HIC#1
> 
> Roy deserved better. 
> 
> And yes, the whole thing is a mess.


I don't mind. Partially because the characters aren't up to much, imo.

I liked the interview parts, and Harley/Gold. Wonder why Bruce never forced Jason to go to Sanctuary, or at least got him there for one session. Maybe he did, but he's too poor a parent to give the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here's the alleged tumblr post

https://spiralcass.tumblr.com/post/1...more-effective

The author isn't saying that Vision was a bad book, but that it failed miserably to give to  the character death in it, coming off just like something done just for shock's sake. Something that it has become something of a trend with King's writing. 




> Wonder why Bruce never forced Jason to go to Sanctuary, or at least got him there for one session. Maybe he did, but he's too poor a parent to give the benefit of the doubt.


Because the whole thing was something that they pulled out of their ass without bothering to properly fit it within the context of the DCU.

----------


## Restingvoice

Heroes in Crisis was planned for a while, it's just that King asked DC for characters he can use however he wants because he prefers to create the story he wants rather than fitting a character to his story, so he doesn't wanna use characters who already have plans of their own. DC came back with Harley and Booster.

I don't think Jason would want to go anyway. Even if he wasn't beaten up, he has his own ideal and doesn't consider himself as needing mental help. I can see him mouthing back "shouldn't it be you who is treated?" or at the very least he'll go if Batman goes.

----------


## G-Potion

> I don't think Jason would want to go anyway. Even if he wasn't beaten up, he has his own ideal and doesn't consider himself as needing mental help. I can see him mouthing back "shouldn't it be you who is treated?" or at the very least he'll go if Batman goes.


I agree that Jason wouldn't be easy to persuade on this matter. Still, it's on Batman to make the offer in the first place if he cares enough. I'll concur though, that the idea that both of them checking in Sanctuary together is pretty funny.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Jackalope89

> I agree that Jason wouldn't be easy to persuade on this matter. Still, it's on Batman to make the offer in the first place if he cares enough. I'll concur though, that the idea that both of them checking in Sanctuary together is pretty funny.


I think the bridges have been burned between the black sheep and emotionally distant dad for some time. I doubt Jason would even give Bruce the time of day to even hear him out on such a thing right now, let alone consider it.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think the bridges have been burned between the black sheep and emotionally distant dad for some time. I doubt Jason would even give Bruce the time of day to even hear him out on such a thing right now, let alone consider it.


Considering that Sanctuary has been a thing for a while, Bruce could have mentioned it to him at any time between RHATO#6 and #25. Their relationship was getting better then. But anyway, it just goes to show that stuff is made up on a whim without considering how little sense it makes and how badly it reflects the Trinity.

----------


## Alycat

> Considering that Sanctuary has been a thing for a while, Bruce could have mentioned it to him at any time between RHATO#6 and #25. Their relationship was getting better then. But anyway, it just goes to show that stuff is made up on a whim without considering how little sense it makes and how badly it reflects the Trinity.


I think this is what I hate the most honestly. So many of these decisions make the trinity/ the JL look bad.  Not saying they should be perfect, but there are mistakes and then there is dumb nonsense. Like in Identity Crisis where memories were being erased. Which was one thing that doubled in being awful when it showed Superman knew about it.

----------


## RedBird

> Considering that Sanctuary has been a thing for a while, Bruce could have mentioned it to him at any time between RHATO#6 and #25. Their relationship was getting better then. But anyway, it just goes to show that stuff is made up on a whim without considering how little sense it makes and how badly it reflects the Trinity.


To be fair don't all the batfam need therapy to some degree? But more importantly were any of the batfam members invited for group therapy? I'm pretty sure Dick, Babs, Tim and Damian were on the cover for issue #1 and Tim was on a hit list too, but if the Sanctuary members were all supposedly slaughtered (other than Harley and Boost unless I'm missing something here) so far I don't think narrative wise _any_ of the batfam were invited.

I mean, it could definitely change, but for now, Sanctuary feels less like a therapeutic safe space for heroes and more like a sad club for...




In DC's eyes, not mine.

----------


## dietrich

> Heroes in Crisis was planned for a while, it's just that King asked DC for characters he can use however he wants because he prefers to create the story he wants rather than fitting a character to his story, so he doesn't wanna use characters who already have plans of their own. DC came back with Harley and Booster.
> 
> I don't think Jason would want to go anyway. Even if he wasn't beaten up, he has his own ideal and doesn't consider himself as needing mental help. I can see him mouthing back "shouldn't it be you who is treated?" or at the very least he'll go if Batman goes.


Once the approved such a place existing in the DCU they should have worked it into the books that Bruce at the very least tried. Not just Jason but other members of the family [Dick is well balanced so maybe not him].

Not providing readers with such reflects badly on Bruce as a parent. They need to give Bruce an out for why his kids who need this service aren't using it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Yeah, but that would make sense, both Bruce being a good parent and the whole Bat family needing therapy, but Sanctuary ceased being a therapy group since... I don't know, and instead become a dumping ground for promotional murder.

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah, but that would make sense, both Bruce being a good parent and the whole Bat family needing therapy, but Sanctuary ceased being a therapy group since... I don't know, and instead become a dumping ground for promotional murder.


Pretty much




> Not providing readers with such reflects badly on Bruce as a parent. They need to give Bruce an out for why his kids who need this service aren't using it.



Easy fix  :Smile: 

Just make a fake group chat with Bruce sending invites to Sanctuary.

*Batfam Group chat*


*Bruce has joined the groupchat

*Bruce:* You're all invited to Sanctuary, it's a support center for heroes, metas and vigilantes alike that provides therapy and assists in dealing with past issues and trauma. I encourage you all to be there.

*Barbara:* Okay, seems practical.

*Dick:* That sounds really helpful.

*Tim:* okay but do we really need it?

*Jason:* Wait, Bruce. Tell me one thing. Did YOU make this?

*Bruce:* Yes, well the idea was partially mine and I am funding it.


_Jason has left the group chat

Barbara has left the group chat

Tim has left the group chat

Dick has left the group chat_


*Bruce:* Damian?

*Damian:* I am visiting the Kents this week.

*Bruce:* Clark is going to be at Sanctuary and Jon isn't even on Earth at the mo....

_Damian has left the group chat_



There's a more realistic interpretation of family outings :P

----------


## G-Potion

http://solvin.lofter.com/

This looks more threatening than celebratory.

----------


## RedBird

> http://solvin.lofter.com/
> 
> This looks more threatening than celebratory.


Yeah, looks like he poisoned the cake XD

----------


## Sergard

From Pete Woods' Twitter:


_Desk shot. Jason has had a rough night._
Source

----------


## RedBird

I'm glad Woods decided to forgo the color duties, I liked his colors but I can already see an improvement and more clean work coming from his digital pencils/inks now that he has more time to work on it.  :Smile:

----------


## Restingvoice

> http://solvin.lofter.com/
> 
> This looks more threatening than celebratory.


It's part of his appeal. I'll xxx him anyway
Wait, what

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm glad Woods decided to forgo the color duties, I liked his colors but I can already see an improvement and more clean work coming from his digital pencils/inks now that he has more time to work on it.


That still doesn't look anything like Jason though. Scrolling down the page I almost thought it was Black Lightning.

----------


## Zaresh

> That still doesn't look anything like Jason though. Scrolling down the page I almost thought it was Black Lightning.


His hairline is to low for my taste, but everything else is more or less Ok when you compare it to the other characters in his style (at least that's what happened with #26). It's just that out of context, Jason looks too blocky.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's part of his appeal. I'll xxx him anyway
> Wait, what


Famous last words?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

I found some nice comment on reddit summarizing Jason's appearances between Batman: Under the Red Hood and New52.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...comic/e71ogtv/

----------


## Zaresh

> I found some nice comment on reddit summarizing Jason's appearances between Batman: Under the Red Hood and New52.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...comic/e71ogtv/


Fainleongs is one of my favourite users in that subreddit. They're not only reasonable and clever (someone you want to discuss whatever with, if you like discuss stuff as much as I like. And given that we disagree in certain things, that's good), and put a lot of thought in posts like that one: they're really fun too. Or at least, they often make me laugh.

They're also the culprit and reason why I support the kind-of-kidding-but-actually-maybe-sort-of-true theory about Jason being an unreliable narrator, and that really-not-serious-at-all theory of Roy being Jason's imaginary friend. If I recall correctly (I'm not sure), that post was first posted after a bunch of users (me included) were trying to come with some sense to Jason's continuity pre and post FP, a few months ago.

----------


## Alycat

> That still doesn't look anything like Jason though. Scrolling down the page I almost thought it was Black Lightning.


I was just about to ask who that drawing is suppose to be cause yeah Jason did not cross my mind at first. I guess its not bad just really different.

----------


## Restingvoice

Black Lightning was my first thought when first I saw that design, and then again seeing that page. The design can work but needs a different artist.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason is playable in Lego Super Villains. 

I'm not amused by this.

----------


## G-Potion

Is this an all-villains game? I have yet to watch the whole thing but so far I'm not bothered by this. I mean, it's Lego, it's gonna be light hearted anyway so it's a good place for Jason to be included in without seriously harming his character development.

----------


## Sergard

> Is this an all-villains game? I have yet to watch the whole thing but so far I'm not bothered by this. I mean, it's Lego, it's gonna be light hearted anyway so it's a good place for Jason to be included in without seriously harming his character development.


No, it's not. At around 4:28 in the video you can see the character grid. And it shows heroes like Batman, Batwoman, Nightwing, Robin, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, etc. too. Arsenal and Bizarro are also included. But I haven't found Artemis (and I'm not sure if the pink-haired lady at the end of the sixth row is supposed to be Starfire). The grid seems to be ordered alphabetically.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jason is explicitly labeled as a villain. 

Anyways, turns out that one panel with Jason and Roy is the only mention of the outlaws in GA#45. However, the flashbacks about Roy seem to take most of Lobdell's backstory into account, so there's that.

----------


## Sergard

From DC Nation #5

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

On one hand, I'm happy to see Jason being considered Roy's best friend, on the other, this won't help about the feelings of guilt for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks, guys, for sharing this. It certainly helps with the wait for the next issue. Again I'm happy that RHATO is still getting attention from DC.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason is explicitly labeled as a villain.


I don't mind that either as this is such a goofy setting, being branded a villain in it is not really a bad thing.

----------


## RedBird

> From DC Nation #5


Oh boy that 'A Bat-Family Reunion' section is making me nervous. Was #25 not enough? Just how devastating is the reunion gonna be? D:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I think is all but stated that it will be Bruce the one breaking the news of Roy's death to Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh boy that 'A Bat-Family Reunion' section is making me nervous. Was #25 not enough? Just how devastating is the reunion gonna be? D:


Possibly Jason will get even angrier at Bruce after this. But not as much as he does at himself though. :/

----------


## RedBird

> I think is all but stated that it will be Bruce the one breaking the news of Roy's death to Jason.


_I think readers will be very emotionally devastated by how they interact. It's not expected._

Okay but even so, does this sentence not seem to imply that it's _their interaction with each other_ that will be devastating, less so than just the bad news Bruce has?

Seems more like they will be getting into another scuffle, emotionally or physically or even both. I already know Jason will be devastated for his friend but I don't think I'm ready for more family heartbreak on top of that. D:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I mean, Bruce acting like a dad for once would also be unexpected.

----------


## RedBird

> I mean, Bruce acting like a dad for once would also be unexpected.


touché

Lobdell did mention that his editor was surprised, what else would surprise a DC editor besides a nice Batman in these dark times. XD

----------


## Zaresh

> On one hand, I'm happy to see Jason being considered Roy's best friend, on the other, this won't help about the feelings of guilt for Jason.


Yeah.

In addition, Wally isn't there, so given that it doesn't seem that a planned fake out bythe trinity... Those rumours... Sign. Ok, whatever. This whole event will be retconned at some point, I'm sure, so not giving much thought from now on. Or maybe it gives the readers a good rddention story, or it's a totally different story going on with him. Whatever, just throw at me what you have DC! I'm a tough girl.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah.
> 
> In addition, Wally isn't there, so given that it doesn't seem that a planned fake out bythe trinity... Those rumours... Sign. Ok, whatever. This whole event will be retconned at some point, I'm sure, so not giving much thought from now on. Or maybe it gives the readers a good rddention story, or it's a totally different story going on with him. Whatever, just throw at me what you have DC! I'm a tough girl.


Wally isn't there because he got a section all for himself on the recap of the events.

----------


## Zaresh

> touché
> 
> Lobdell did mention that his editor was surprised, what else would surprise a DC editor besides a nice Batman in these dark times. XD


So, so true, it hurts.

----------


## Zaresh

> Wally isn't there because he got a section all for himself on the recap of the events.


Oh, ok. Good, I guess, or at least, not givring much away yet is a smart move. I still refuse to believe those rumours, but not seeing him in there was worrying.

I hate phone posting, grrrrrrrr.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm also curious about Jason's motive as stated in the page. Revenge? Do we know what it's against? The Underlife so far is a mission but it's not personal yet is it?

----------


## Arsenal

> I'm also curious about Jason's motive as stated in the page. Revenge? Do we know what it's against? The Underlife so far is a mission but it's not personal yet is it?


Not yet. Will probably change next issue.

----------


## G-Potion

http://britaisy.tumblr.com/post/178002002121

AU where everything is the same except Jason has the fluffiest hair.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dextersoy

Reverse-edged knife

----------


## RedBird

Oh my God

This looks like one of those crazy 'relationship goals' couples selfie XD

----------


## G-Potion

I get all these crazy ideas looking at this. And I wasn't even a fan of them getting together in the first place. :P

And it's unfair that Soy's Jason looks so much more handsome now when he's not drawing him regularly any more.  :Frown:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Damn, I miss Soy.

Also G, personally I think it would easier if you linked to the post itself rather than their whole account. You just have to right click at the date and copy that link for that.

----------


## G-Potion

Yeah I probably should have done that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, mostly when I prefer to keep the link short. I've never thought much further than that so I'm not aware of any inconvenience it might cause.

As an aside, are we getting preview for #27 later today?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah I probably should have done that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, mostly when I prefer to keep the link short. I've never thought much further than that so I'm not aware of any inconvenience it might cause.
> 
> As an aside, are we getting preview for #27 later today?


Well, you can add the link into text to keep it short

Reverse-Edge Knife

And hopefully we'll get the preview but I have the feeling it will be released until Monday.

----------


## Rise

Jason is getting a new costume in the three jokers and it was confirmed that he is one of the main characters alongside Bruce and Babs in the this story.

Anyone upest about the loss of hair and the helmet in the current arc, don't worry because he is apparently getting them back after the one year skip.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

At this point, I don't know if we still should expect things to line up to whatever thing Johns is planning. Doomsday Clock is _still_ 10 months away to end and I doubt every single other writer in editorial will be willing to drop their stories when DC ends. 

That said, I hate that Jason's costume is essentially a Robin costume with the helmet and the jacket. He grew out from that a long time ago, and if that is a showing of Johns' understanding of his character, well, my expectations for Jason's part in the Three Jokers' plotline are incredibly low.

----------


## G-Potion

Interesting. What's the timeline for this again? Did you mean one year because it's supposed to come out in 2019? I wonder if this design will stay after the story is finished. Not the best designs for him but I don't mind having it as an addition to his wardrobe.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Interesting. What's the timeline for this again? Did you mean one year because it's supposed to come out in 2019? I wonder if this design will stay after the story is finished. Not the best designs for him but I don't mind having it as an addition to his wardrobe.


Doomsday Clock is supposed to happen one year in the future of the current DCU. So whatever nonsense is going on the Batman books right now will lead to Batman becoming hated and hunted by Gotham's population and such. But that is precisely the issue, that Jason is supposed to be Jason after going through the whole Outlaw thing, and the costume itself is a regression of his character. Is as if during Rebirth Dick instead of going back the blue Nightwing costume, would've dressed in the oversized Robin costume his E2 counterpart used in the Silver Age.

----------


## Rise

I think the purpose of this design is returning the character to his origin like you see with Bruce and Babs having their classic costumes back.

I don't think it's going to stuck for long, but I don't mind it as addition to Jason's wardrope either and actually like how he keep getting a lot of interesting costumes.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think the purpose of this design is returning the character to his origin like you see with Bruce and Babs having their classic costumes back.
> 
> I don't think it's going to stuck for long, but I don't mind it as addition to Jason's wardrope either and actually like how he keep getting a lot of interesting costumes.


No. Bruce's "classic" costume is the one he's sporting right now on the books being published (the Hush one), so much that it was heavily advertised as him going back to basics in the lead up to it, similar to Superman going back to using trunks. This costume is just a variant of his Earth One Costume, that outright clashes with the advertised visual direction for Bruce. And the same could be said about Barbara, that shows the same basic issues than Jason does.

----------


## Arsenal

With all the eyes on this, I hope Jason gets a good showing.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm curious about the R on his belt. Homage to Hush costume or character driven?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Doubt it. I mean, Johns mentioned in the past that (paraphrasing) it would focus on how these three characters have dealt with Joker's attacks on them, mentioning how one healed right, one healed bad and other hasn't healed at all. And you really trust Johns to give Jason a positive depiction to the detriment of Barbara and Bruce?

EDIT: The R is the same kind of cheap callback to Jason's time as Robin. Let's not forget that Johns was the one that put Jason on oversized yellow tights and Robin costume in the past.

----------


## G-Potion

> With all the eyes on this, I hope Jason gets a good showing.


About time as well. He rarely has one when the Batfam is involved. But a bigger issue for me is whether Jason turns out to be the one that "healed wrong" as DC put it. I mean, would be a shame if they ignore all his development since N52 because he's actually the one that better matured emotionally.

----------


## Arsenal

> Doubt it. I mean, Johns mentioned in the past that (paraphrasing) it would focus on how these three characters have dealt with Joker's attacks on them, mentioning how one healed right, one healed bad and other hasn't healed at all. And you really trust Johns to give Jason a positive depiction to the detriment of Barbara and Bruce?


No. But I can lie to myself for the next few months that he will until issue 1 comes out.

----------


## Rise

> No. Bruce's "classic" costume is the one he's sporting right now on the books being published (the Hush one), so much that it was heavily advertised as him going back to basics in the lead up to it, similar to Superman going back to using trunks. This costume is just a variant of his Earth One Costume, that outright clashes with the advertised visual direction for Bruce. And the same could be said about Barbara, that shows the same basic issues than Jason does.


This is Batman's classic costume minus the dumb trunks (thank you, Gary/Johns!).

And chill, dark. The story still not out and the costumes are just reflection of the periods of time where the joker affected their lives since the book called the three jokers after all.

----------


## kaimaciel

So is the Battle with the 3 Jokers in the main continuity? Or is this another possible future that will never come to be?

----------


## G-Potion

> So is the Battle with the 3 Jokers in the main continuity? Or is this another possible future that will never come to be?


If my memory serves, it's in continuity.

----------


## reni344

It has been stated that Three Jokers will be part of the Black Label line and is in continuity

----------


## Sergard

Damn... Jason is handsome. Why can't he look like that in the current comic?
The only thing I don't like is the belt with the "R". It could stand for Red Hood but it reminds me too much of the Robin symbol.

I'm surprised that Jason is even supposed to be one of the three things - healed right, healed bad or not healed at all. In my opinion, Jason is still healing - but he is on a good way.

----------


## Jman27

> If my memory serves, it's in continuity.


Like how Doomsday Clock is in continuity but only taking place in the future?

----------


## G-Potion

> Like how Doomsday Clock is in continuity but only taking place in the future?


Heh who knows what they meant. Until the book comes out this is what we get.

----------


## Rise



----------


## G-Potion

> 


That's some good images there.

----------


## RedBird

> About time as well. He rarely has one when the Batfam is involved. But a bigger issue for me is whether Jason turns out to be the one that "healed wrong" as DC put it. I mean, would be a shame if they ignore all his development since N52 because he's actually the one that better matured emotionally.


Cynical as it may sound, If I had to guess, I'm pretty sure he will be 'healed wrong', no matter how much development he has had, Jason is gonna be forever known as the bad robin, the mistake, the failure, the one that came back wrong. Babs will be 'healed right', which makes sense since she is well known for having rebuilt herself after tragedy. I think Batman will be 'not healed at all' cause that's pretty much how his status quo has always been approached, that no matter what he does, he still feels tormented by the past, which leaves Jason as 'healed wrong'. Personally, I would have placed Jason in the 'not healed' category myself if I _had_ to pick one, but that leaves 'healed wrong' for Bruce and I'm not sure that will be the case.

Granted okay we don't know how the story lines will unfold, like I said it's just me guessing _but_ if I am right in my estimate here, then I think it would be safe to assume that it pretty much won't acknowledge much or any of the progress Jason had made since he returned in favor of painting him once again as a tragic mistake in Bruces legacy. So I don't know how 'good' or more specifically, how accurately, it could possibly depict Jasons character and development. With all sincerity now, I hope I'm completely wrong and completely off the mark and that the comic gives some actual _depth_ to his story and character (good and bad) instead of doing what DC has usually done by reducing Jason to a cautionary tale. Costume looks nice though, I'll give em that. I did kinda miss the black jacket. :P

----------


## RedBird

> That's some good images there.


Yeah, Jasons one could pretty much be a cover.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm pretty sure those are the covers.

----------


## G-Potion

If that's the case then I personally think only the Jason one is good enough as a cover.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm pretty sure those are the covers.


Really? I mean the Jason one actually LOOKS like a cover, but I thought the Batgirl one and even the Bruce one looked a little too plain, I thought these were just random panels.

----------


## LP22

Glad Jay will be in three jokers(ric grayson fans will riot because he's not their....)

----------


## RedBird

_“You’re going to learn about the characters and see things unfold about each of them that will change your perception on who they are and what they think of each other.” Johns excitedly explained, “You’re going to get to know Jason in a deeper way than you have in the past. Our goal is to explore these characters emotionally.”_

Oh boy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> _“You’re going to learn about the characters and see things unfold about each of them that will change your perception on who they are and what they think of each other.” Johns excitedly explained, “You’re going to get to know Jason in a deeper way than you have in the past. Our goal is to explore these characters emotionally.”_
> 
> Oh boy.


Not a good sign.

Lobdell has done more than enough to flesh out Jason for Johns to come and pull a "Uh, uh. this is how _really_ happened"

----------


## G-Potion

> Cynical as it may sound, If I had to guess, I'm pretty sure he will be 'healed wrong', no matter how much development he has had, Jason is gonna be forever known as the bad robin, the mistake, the failure, the one that came back wrong. Babs will be 'healed right', which makes sense since she is well known for having rebuilt herself after tragedy. I think Batman will be 'not healed at all' cause that's pretty much how his status quo has always been approached, that no matter what he does, he still feels tormented by the past, which leaves Jason as 'healed wrong'. Personally, I would have placed Jason in the 'not healed' category myself if I _had_ to pick one, but that leaves 'healed wrong' for Bruce and I'm not sure that will be the case.
> 
> Granted okay we don't know how the story lines will unfold, like I said it's just me guessing _but_ if I am right in my estimate here, then I think it would be safe to assume that it pretty much won't acknowledge much or any of the progress Jason had made since he returned in favor of painting him once again as a tragic mistake in Bruces legacy. So I don't know how 'good' or more specifically, how accurately, it could possibly depict Jasons character and development. With all sincerity now, I hope I'm completely wrong and completely off the mark and that the comic gives some actual _depth_ to his story and character (good and bad) instead of doing what DC has usually done by reducing Jason to a cautionary tale. Costume looks nice though, I'll give em that. I did kinda miss the black jacket. :P


They just have to not have the "still healing" option like Sergard suggested, which would be the correct one.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I love the black jacket as well. But I'm not sold on that much red. And that part connecting the pants and shirt also. Still. It's a design that is also distinctive enough and worthy of being included in his ever expanding wardrobe. I just love how many spins artists can make from the core elements of his costume.

----------


## G-Potion

> _“You’re going to learn about the characters and see things unfold about each of them that will change your perception on who they are and what they think of each other.” Johns excitedly explained, “You’re going to get to know Jason in a deeper way than you have in the past. Our goal is to explore these characters emotionally.”_
> 
> Oh boy.


Either he's gonna upend Lobdell's hard work or he's gonna upend our bleak expectations.

----------


## DragonPiece

well regardless of what lobdell did, whatever Geoff writes will have final say on the character. I'm curious how this will affect continuity for sure.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> well regardless of what lobdell did, whatever Geoff writes will have final say on the character. I'm curious how this will affect continuity for sure.


Considering how Heroes in Crisis is going, I don't think Johns has the last word anymore.

----------


## G-Potion

> well regardless of what lobdell did, whatever Geoff writes will have final say on the character. I'm curious how this will affect continuity for sure.


Eh I don't think it's as easy to erase seven years of Lobdell's work, considering that he is still on the title and by his own admission RHATO is loved by the office. If Three Jokers doesn't have long lasting effect on continuity, Lobdell will just keep on doing his thing I hope.

----------


## Aahz

> Eh I don't think it's as easy to erase seven years of Lobdell's work, considering that he is still on the title and by his own admission RHATO is loved by the office. If Three Jokers doesn't have long lasting effect on continuity, Lobdell will just keep on doing his thing I hope.


But it will have again have a big effect on the many comic readers who don't read RHatO, since it is such a high profile book.

Btw. was it said when it will come out?

----------


## Zaresh

Wow! Almost three pages of messages. And lots of new tidbits.




> Jason is getting a new costume in the three jokers and it was confirmed that he is one of the main characters alongside Bruce and Babs in the this story.
> 
> Anyone upest about the loss of hair and the helmet in the current arc, don't worry because he is apparently getting them back* after the one year skip*.


A whole one year of timeskip. That's a lot. Oh, do I hope they do that skip... Making the characters age a bit is so, so needed right now.




> Cynical as it may sound, If I had to guess, I'm pretty sure he will be 'healed wrong', no matter how much development he has had, Jason is gonna be forever known as the bad robin, the mistake, the failure, the one that came back wrong. Babs will be 'healed right', which makes sense since she is well known for having rebuilt herself after tragedy. *I think Batman will be 'not healed at all' cause that's pretty much how his status quo has always been approached, that no matter what he does, he still feels tormented by the past, which leaves Jason as 'healed wrong'. Personally, I would have placed Jason in the 'not healed' category myself if I had to pick one, but that leaves 'healed wrong' for Bruce and I'm not sure that will be the case.*
> 
> Granted okay we don't know how the story lines will unfold, like I said it's just me guessing _but_ if I am right in my estimate here, then I think it would be safe to assume that it pretty much won't acknowledge much or any of the progress Jason had made since he returned in favor of painting him once again as a tragic mistake in Bruces legacy. So I don't know how 'good' or more specifically, how accurately, it could possibly depict Jasons character and development. With all sincerity now, I hope I'm completely wrong and completely off the mark and that the comic gives some actual _depth_ to his story and character (good and bad) instead of doing what DC has usually done by reducing Jason to a cautionary tale. Costume looks nice though, I'll give em that. I did kinda miss the black jacket. :P


I pretty much agree. Jason is still not healed from that. And I have a serious problem with calling what he's going throw "healing bad". Feels a lot like victim blaming to me, to be honest. It's like telling victims that they shouldn't try to stop a mass murderer from still mass murdering because the law cannot stop him/her, at any cost, in a place of the world that clearly has a law that cannot contain that criminal (like war zones for example). Their world is broken, much more than ours, and their villains are broken too: Jason's reaction is completely reasonable in regards to the Joker at least (maybe not about other villains, but with the Joker that's completely reasonable). So calling what he feels as "healing bad" is like calling him crazy or guilty or... I don't really like that approach and hope it's not. I'm tired of it.




> If that's the case then I personally think only the Jason one is good enough as a cover.


For me, covers need to be either stylish, emotional or dynamic. Only the third one is (emotional).




> _“You’re going to learn about the characters and see things unfold about each of them that will change your perception on who they are and what they think of each other.” Johns excitedly explained, “You’re going to get to know Jason in a deeper way than you have in the past. Our goal is to explore these characters emotionally.”_
> 
> Oh boy.


Blah, blah, blah. Typical promo quote. I have doubts about Johns giving any character the depth he says he's going to give him. He will try to give him depth, but I doubt it will be something astonishing. And also, I don't like that he could throw to the side all the hard work Lobdell and other authors that did worked in giving us an insight on him so far: that wouldn't be cool, at all. I hope he doesn't do that.

In any case, I'll wait and see what comes out of all this.
Ah, by the way, the costume is a bit too tacticool for me. And a bit generic. But it's not a bad costume, I guess.

----------


## G-Potion

> But it will have again have a big effect on the many comic readers who don't read RHatO, since it is such a high profile book.
> 
> Btw. was it said when it will come out?


Then it's nothing new. Disappointing, but not new. 

On John's website it only says 2019 i think.

----------


## Rise

> _“You’re going to learn about the characters and see things unfold about each of them that will change your perception on who they are and what they think of each other.” Johns excitedly explained, “You’re going to get to know Jason in a deeper way than you have in the past. Our goal is to explore these characters emotionally.”_
> 
> Oh boy.


My favourite artist has become a fan of my favourite character!! I'm officially exicited!!

Jason Fabok:
@JasonFabok
I can assure you that we understand the character.  This story converted me into a Jason Todd fan.  We are going to give him a great story worthy of the character. Dont worry

----------


## Zaresh

> My favourite artist has become a fan of my favourite character!! I'm officially exicited!!
> 
> Jason Fabok:
> @JasonFabok
> I can assure you that we understand the character.  This story converted me into a Jason Todd fan.  We are going to give him a great story worthy of the character. Dont worry


OHHHH.

Now, now, I finally have some faith in this. I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it.

----------


## kaimaciel

> My favourite artist has become a fan of my favourite character!! I'm officially exicited!!
> 
> Jason Fabok:
> @JasonFabok
> I can assure you that we understand the character.  This story converted me into a Jason Todd fan.  We are going to give him a great story worthy of the character. Dont worry


Oh! Cool! That's good coming from the artist. I know a "good Jason characterization" varies from person to person in regards on how they prefer their Red Hood (pre 52, Lost Days, Under the Hood, Hush, Battle for the Cowl onward (eww!), New 52, Rebirth), but I'm trying to stay positive. At least he's not being regarded as a joke.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> I pretty much agree. Jason is still not healed from that. And I have a serious problem with calling what he's going throw "healing bad". Feels a lot like victim blaming to me, to be honest. It's like telling victims that they shouldn't try to stop a mass murderer from still mass murdering because the law cannot stop him/her, at any cost, in a place of the world that clearly has a law that cannot contain that criminal (like war zones for example). Their world is broken, much more than ours, and their villains are broken too: Jason's reaction is completely reasonable in regards to the Joker at least (maybe not about other villains, but with the Joker that's completely reasonable). So calling what he feels as "healing bad" is like calling him crazy or guilty or... I don't really like that approach and hope it's not. I'm tired of it.


I hope it doesn't go the victim blaming route either because I'm sick of it as well. 

Honestly I'd be more likely to say that Jason fits the "not healed at all" category rather than the "healed wrong", which I believe fits Bruce better in this situation. I don't believe Bruce every truly recovered from Jason's death nor from Barbara's being shot and he certainly didn't have a healthy coping mechanism for dealing with those events either. Heck, he even blames himself for those events and says as much on several occasions. He's also never attempted to deal with those issues or even with the deaths of his own parents even if he claims Batman was an attempt at doing so. I actually think Bruce is the most messed up of the three here. 

Jason completely shies away from anything to do with his death, off color jokes aside, when it comes to others mentioning it and yet at the same time he dwells on it a lot. He claims he's fine but I honestly don't think he is. Even Roy points out that Jason needs help in the recent annual and I don't think he was talking just about what Bruce did the issue before either. I chose to think he was very aware that Jason has some issues beyond just that one incident because people with problems recognize others in the same situation. People with the kinds of issues Jason has also blow those issues off or scoff at any attempt by others to get them help. As far as I know Jason has either been trying to deal with his issues on his own or he's kept them locked away while pretending everything is fine, which is its own brand of messed up. Still I'd be given to say that Jason has "never healed" despite his having made efforts toward trying to. 

Barbara got back up from her encounter with the Joker and made something of herself despite her trauma. She may have been angry and had her own issues but she actually worked through them to reach a better place and came out the other side a stronger person for it. I don't think there's any question that she will be the one who "healed right" (unless Johns has some asinine and frankly OCC twist up his sleeve) and I've no argument with that.

Edit: Good to hear from Fabok that they actually do understand Jason's character and have a great story planned. I'm a bit more hopeful for this now. Maybe this finally be the story that allows Jason to put his death completely behind him (because I don't think he actually has done that yet even though I do believe Lobdell has been maneuvering to get him there.) so he can finally let it go and move on with his life without the spectre of the Joker hovering over everything he does.

----------


## Zaresh

> I hope it doesn't go the victim blaming route either because I'm sick of it as well. 
> 
> Honestly I'd be more likely to say that Jason fits the "not healed at all" category rather than the "healed wrong", which I believe fits Bruce better in this situation. I don't believe Bruce every truly recovered from Jason's death nor from Barbara's being shot and he certainly didn't have a healthy coping mechanism for dealing with those events either. Heck, he even blames himself for those events and says as much on several occasions. He's also never attempted to deal with those issues or even with the deaths of his own parents even if he claims Batman was an attempt at doing so. I actually think Bruce is the most messed up of the three here. 
> 
> Jason completely shies away from anything to do with his death, off color jokes aside, when it comes to others mentioning it and yet at the same time he dwells on it a lot. He claims he's fine but I honestly don't think he is. Even Roy points out that Jason needs help in the recent annual and I don't think he was talking just about what Bruce did the issue before either. I chose to think he was very aware that Jason has some issues beyond just that one incident because people with problems recognize others in the same situation. People with the kinds of issues Jason has also blow those issues off or scoff at any attempt by others to get them help. As far as I know Jason has either been trying to deal with his issues on his own or he's kept them locked away while pretending everything is fine, which is its own brand of messed up. Still I'd be given to say that Jason has "never healed" despite his having made efforts toward trying to. 
> 
> Barbara got back up from her encounter with the Joker and made something of herself despite her trauma. She may have been angry and had her own issues but she actually worked through them to reach a better place and came out the other side a stronger person for it. I don't think there's any question that she will be the one who "healed right" (unless Johns has some asinine and frankly OCC twist up his sleeve) and I've no argument with that.
> 
> Edit: Good to hear from Fabok that they actually do understand Jason's character and have a great story planned. I'm a bit more hopeful for this now. Maybe this finally be the story that allows Jason to put his death completely behind him (because I don't think he actually has done that yet even though I do believe Lobdell has been maneuvering to get him there.) so he can finally let it go and move on with his life without the spectre of the Joker hovering over everything he does.


Yeah, Barbara being the "right" is what makes most sense. I don't have a problem with her being that narrative either.

(He he, I love how I phonetically mix some words sometimes)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Jason Fabok:
> @JasonFabok
> I can assure you that we understand the character.  This story converted me into a Jason Todd fan.  We are going to give him a great story worthy of the character. Dont worry


So he became a fan over a story that was born as a stunt to boost sales and no over the any of the three series Jason has leading for seven years, one of which has been met with fan and critical acclaim? Not really helping his case.

EDIT:

Also, lol, that answer was addressed to someone literally copy pasting one of my comments from FB.

----------


## Zaresh

> So he became a fan over a story that was born as a stunt to boost sales and no over the any of the three series Jason has leading for seven years, one of which has been met with fan and critical acclaim? Not really helping his case.


It's not a mystery: a lot of authors and artists don't read as many books as they would like just because the free time they have alone. And let's be honest here, Dark: RHATO is a low profile book. Besides, noone says they didn't count reading RHATO for working their story, either. Could be that having to read those books, helped them to understand the character better (even if I doubt's the case for his case. I hope is not for Johns: he may not be a writer I like a lot, but at least, he always does his homework).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's not a mystery: a lot of authors and artists don't read as many books as they would like just because the free time they have alone. And let's be honest here, Dark: RHATO* is a low profile book*. Besides, noone says they didn't count reading RHATO for working their story, either. Could be that having to read those books, helped them to understand the character better (even if I doubt's the case for his case. I hope is not for Johns: he may not be a writer I like a lot, but at least, he always does his homework).


A low profile books that supposedly is a favorite among editorial, of which, presumably, includes Johns himself.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> So he became a fan over a story that was born as a stunt to boost sales and no over the any of the three series Jason has leading for seven years, one of which has been met with fan and critical acclaim? Not really helping his case.


Honestly I don't see a problem with that, Dark. Plenty of people have become fans of his character because of UTRH and you can't tell me that wasn't also a story that was born of a stunt to boost its sales.

----------


## Zaresh

> A low profile books that supposedly is a favorite among editorial, of which, presumably, includes Johns himself.


Well, let's see how this results, then. Maybe Johns really pulled a moving story.
(I just realized that there is no way to properly translate "comerse un marrón" in English. Such a pity, because that a very useful expression for a lot of things that have been happening lately)

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Well, let's see how this results, then. Maybe Johns really pulled a moving story.
> (I just realized that there is no way to properly translate "comerse un marrón" in English. Such a pity, because that a very useful expression for a lot of things that have been happening lately)


I'm willing to wait and see what happens myself. It might very well be a moving story as well as one that finally gives Jason a good showing outside of his own book for once.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Honestly I don't see a problem with that, Dark. Plenty of people have become fans of his character because of UTRH and you can't tell me that wasn't also a story that was born of a stunt to boost its sales.


Difference being that those people weren't in a creative position with the potential of shifting the public opinion on that character.

Plus, Johns' output as creative as become more flawed as time goes on.

----------


## JasonTodd428

> Difference being that those people weren't in a creative position with the potential of shifting the public opinion on that character.
> 
> Plus, Johns' output as creative as become more flawed as time goes on.


Fabok being in a creative position doesn't negate that he may also be a comic fan though and as such if he comes to like a character it amounts to the same thing regardless of how it came about.

----------


## Sergard

I'm optimistic. Jason has enough emotional baggage that Johns could analyze. As @JasonTodd428, I believe that Jason hasn't completely come to terms with his own death and could still go through some stages of grief and loss.
Although there have been several deaths and resurrections in the past of the DC universe I still think Jason's death and resurrection has some special (and sad) touch to it. When he came back, he was alone and there wasn't a place he could go back to, as he saw it.
Bruce had thrown his body in a grave, put all his stuff in some far away corner of the bat cave and got himself a new Robin while the Joker was alive and Bruce Wayne/Batman acted in public like nothing had changed. For Jason, there was no sign of Bruce grieving, no sign that he had ever truly cared about Jason. (And don't get me started on this "Good Soldier" memorial case.)

I mean, per se, Bruce has done something normal, something all people do that have lost someone close to them: He (and also Dick, Barbara and Alfred) had moved on (with the help of Tim Drake). And that's the situation Jason comes back to. His existence faded away to memories while he himself was alive again and full of emotions as if only a day had passed since the explosion in Qurac. There was probably denial at first, denial that Bruce could be so emotionally indifferent to his death (Especially the end of Under the Red Hood reads like Jason desperately wanting some "proof of love" of Bruce). In the whole scenario was also a lot of anger mixed in. The anger ebbed away in New52 and in Rebirth Jason made a bargain in hopes that he could be a "normal" part of the family again. And we all know how that ended.

With the additional loss of Artemis, Bizarro and Roy it's obvious that Jason is in a very dark and depressing mental state at the moment. It would be nice if Jason somehow could reach acceptance in regards to his own death, how it affected him but also the rest of the family, so that Jason can move on too. Acceptance could mean a lot of things. It could, for example, mean that Jason decides, after violently being taken away from the family and later kicked out by Bruce himself, that he wants to leave the family this time on his terms. That he wants to completely start anew with the people that he has met after his resurrection, with Artemis and Biz as his family and maybe Ma Gunn and Willis (in case Willis isn't a villain, which would be nice - there are already enough batfam members with evil relatives. And Jason really deserves some happiness at this point).

There is no denying that Jason loves Bruce and probably still sees him as a father figure. I don't want to be dramatic by saying that Jason would die for Bruce but is that assumption really too far fetched? But dying for someone and living with someone are two different things. Jason and Bruce will never have a relationship like Bruce and Dick or Bruce and Damian, because of their different moralities. Jason should surround himself with people who have similar believes and don't judge him for his, people who love him as he is. And personally, it hurts me emotionally if I see how far Bruce goes for Dick (Forever Evil, or the current arc in Batman with KGBeast) or for Damian (Damian's death and resurrection) compared to his behavior when it comes to Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

Crazy though right now. I don't know if you guys know the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett. But damn, wouldn't it be great if Willis ends like some kind of neutral character like the Patrician of Ankh Morpork (but instead of lawful neutral, true neutral, to Jason's current chaotic good, instead of Vimes lawful good).

Ok, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but the thought just crossed my mind and I cannot unthink it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## G-Potion

> My favourite artist has become a fan of my favourite character!! I'm officially exicited!!
> 
> Jason Fabok:
> @JasonFabok
> I can assure you that we understand the character.  This story converted me into a Jason Todd fan.  We are going to give him a great story worthy of the character. Dont worry


Thanks, Rise! I'm a lot more excited now!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## hero talk

> Honestly I don't see a problem with that, Dark. Plenty of people have become fans of his character because of UTRH and you can't tell me that wasn't also a story that was born of a stunt to boost its sales.


so true and who cares why they like something the more the merrier

----------


## hero talk

> Not a good sign.
> 
> Lobdell has done more than enough to flesh out Jason for Johns to come and pull a "Uh, uh. this is how _really_ happened"


well thats how comicbooks work thank goodness otherwise the next person who writes jason badly will get to decide  who he is forever and this will happen again he will be written badly at some point
but luckily no one gets the last word

----------


## Armor of God

I can understand apprehension towards Johns. He has a habit of retconning and rewriting to suit his vision and his vision alone.

Jaspn is however the only reason I'm even interested in this project.
For one thing Johns is nowhere near Alan Moore level so him trying to write Watchmen and Killing Joke sequels just feels so wrong. Moore was right about Johns raiding his closet. The man is just riding someone elses coattails.
I'm burnt out on Joker period. Too much going on with him at once as we speak. I think DC itself doesn't even know who or what he is. One second he's a virus, next second he's actually 3 people and then he's a reformed and sane politician and in the future he'll be a talking head and then the sun. The hell is all this? The character is a trainwreck at this point. Even King's idiotic shenanigans with Bane are inherently more appealing than Joker now.

Johns is not a good Batman writer so his obsession with altering the mythos is bemusing. At the end of the day I dont want the writers of Batman, Batgirl and Red Hood to be beholden to Johns.

----------


## Aahz

Sounds like Johns is the one who is responsible for Jason appearing in Titans.

https://www.cbr.com/nycc-geoff-johns...-three-jokers/

----------


## Aahz

I actually liked most of Johns stuff that I have read sofar, so I'm not more concerened about this then with every other appearance of Jason in a big Batman story line.

----------


## Restingvoice

Writing and direction taste regardless, I can understand the concern because so far Jason has been established as moving on from the Joker, he's been working with the family, he has friends, he's a lot healthier mentally and emotionally, so if this story's purpose is to bring him back to Under The Red Hood, reexamining them, or defining that he's the one who heal wrong, it will undo all that healthy progression. 

However, I also think that road is already taken. Jason is now going solo, right after The Three Jokers story was announced. That doesn't look like a coincidence to me. Lobdell on his own writes a Jason who moves on, but he also a writer who will follow editorial direction. So it looks like this solo run is prepping him to lead to that point.

----------


## thebluefeline

> I actually liked most of Johns stuff that I have read sofar, so I'm not more concerened about this then with every other appearance of Jason in a big Batman story line.


Same for me. I really enjoy most of Geoff Johns' works so him writing a Joker/Batman story with Jason and Barbara is really exciting. I'm honestly more worried for Jason's characterization under Tom King when he shows up in the Batman book after what's happened with Bruce/Selina/Dick for the past couple of issues more than I'll ever be of Johns regressing Jason to ridiculous lengths.

----------


## Aahz

I'm actually wondering if he is going to explore were Jason was during TKJ. At least in the original comics, TKJ is is happening shortly before DITF, But Jason doesn't appear in TKJ nor do these events of TKJ play a big role in DITF (it is just briefly mentioned).

----------


## DIVINITY

> Jason is getting a new costume in the three jokers and it was confirmed that he is one of the main characters alongside Bruce and Babs in the this story.
> 
> Anyone upest about the loss of hair and the helmet in the current arc, don't worry because he is apparently getting them back after the one year skip.


I really like this look, and wouldnt mind at all if it sticks around after the one year skip. Either way, Im just glad Jason has a major role in this.

----------


## Rise

> Writing and direction taste regardless, I can understand the concern because so far Jason has been established as moving on from the Joker, he's been working with the family, he has friends, he's a lot healthier mentally and emotionally, so if this story's purpose is to bring him back to Under The Red Hood, reexamining them, or defining that he's the one who heal wrong, it will undo all that healthy progression. 
> 
> However, I also think that road is already taken. Jason is now going solo, right after The Three Jokers story was announced. That doesn't look like a coincidence to me. Lobdell on his own writes a Jason who moves on, but he also a writer who will follow editorial direction. So it looks like this solo run is prepping him to lead to that point.


Lobdell never really wrote Jason as moving on from the joker as evident of him having Jason saying that he keep dreaming about what he did every night in the "who is Artemis" arc. He actually just not dealing with it.

Johns has the chance to something that was never done before, _have Bruce and Jason talk about it_. It still affect both of them deeply, but they never opened up to each others about what happened.

----------


## dietrich

I'm actually digging Jason's look for the 3 Jokers book.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Lobdell never really wrote Jason as moving on from the joker as evident of him having Jason saying that he keep dreaming about what he did every night in the "who is Artemis" arc. He actually just not dealing with it.
> 
> Johns has the chance to something that was never done before, _have Bruce and Jason talk about it_. It still affect both of them deeply, but they never opened up to each others about what happened.


No I meant he's not actively seeking to kill Joker or anyone. It's not his focus. Of course he's not forgetting it, that's not something you can forget but he doesn't chase after Joker like Bruce doesn't chase after Joe Chill.

----------


## G-Potion

> No I meant he's not actively seeking to kill Joker or anyone. It's not his focus. Of course he's not forgetting it, that's not something you can forget but he doesn't chase after Joker like Bruce doesn't chase after Joe Chill.


That's true but regarding your last comment on undoing his healing progress, Lobdell did go to say that being in the presence of his friends masked a lot of his issues. It's possible that he hasn't truly healed after all and is only now forced to deal with it.

----------


## G-Potion

> Sounds like Johns is the one who is responsible for Jason appearing in Titans.
> 
> https://www.cbr.com/nycc-geoff-johns...-three-jokers/


Nice! Not sure how both Titans Jason and Three Jokers Jason will turn out but the interest in the character is appreciated.

----------


## Arsenal

I can accept Jason being the one who didn’t heal at all.

----------


## RedBird

> I can accept Jason being the one who didn’t heal at all.


I think that's the general consensuses, here's hoping Johns thinks so too.



Also for anyone interested, the process video for that couples selfie with Jason and Artemis
It's interesting to see all the different changes Dexter makes throughout the sketch, the pose becomes _softer_ and more gentle as it goes on.

----------


## G-Potion

> I think that's the general consensuses, here's hoping Johns thinks so too.
> 
> 
> 
> Also for anyone interested, the process video for that couples selfie with Jason and Artemis
> It's interesting to see all the different changes Dexter makes throughout the sketch, the pose becomes _softer_ and more gentle as it goes on.


It's hot. And educational as well as it reminds me to be patient with my sketch until I get the result I want. Too many times I got stuck in the later stages just because I rushed the sketching part.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Writing and direction taste regardless, I can understand the concern because so far Jason has been established as moving on from the Joker, he's been working with the family, he has friends, he's a lot healthier mentally and emotionally, so if this story's purpose is to bring him back to Under The Red Hood, reexamining them, or defining that he's the one who heal wrong, it will undo all that healthy progression. 
> 
> However, I also think that road is already taken. Jason is now going solo, right after The Three Jokers story was announced. That doesn't look like a coincidence to me. Lobdell on his own writes a Jason who moves on, but he also a writer who will follow editorial direction. So it looks like this solo run is prepping him to lead to that point.


It is actually a coincidence. Lobdell has been pitching the idea of Jason going solo for a while now simply because he was getting burned out of writing a team. The whole thing with the Three Jokers is something that came after the fact. 

That said, the biggest issue with Johns is his tendency of writing characters as _he_ thinks is the "iconic" version of the character , with little regard to the way they've been handled by other writers in the past. And everything so far seems to indicate that for Johns, Jason is the slightly deranged ass from UtRH.

----------


## Jackalope89

Red Him and Red Her finally get B to rest after a long day.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If we take this tweet at face value, so much for King acknowledging RHATO's events.

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1048599265398968325

----------


## Sergard

> Crazy though right now. I don't know if you guys know the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett. But damn, wouldn't it be great if Willis ends like some kind of neutral character like the Patrician of Ankh Morpork (but instead of lawful neutral, true neutral, to Jason's current chaotic good, instead of Vimes lawful good).
> 
> Ok, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but the thought just crossed my mind and I cannot unthink it .


In which volume does the Patrician of Ankh Morpork appear? I only read the first one - and that's a while ago.
My theory so far is that Willis is the one behind the Henchmen app with the purpose to help small-time criminals, who are forced to do dirty jobs because of bad circumstances, to find the "safest" crime lord to work for - so that they don't have to suffer the same fate as he did. He could also use the app to gather information from former henchmen about all the crime lords and use the information later if necessary.

What kind of alignment would that be?

But I fear, Willis is a villain. He seemed nice in his confrontation with Ma Gunn - but not so when he met Bizarro in the bar. His different faces make me wonder if he could have some kind of split personality as the result of the experiments done on him. If he has some mental issues I hope that they can be healed by S'aru or someone else.

----------


## Zaresh

> If we take this tweet at face value, so much for King acknowledging RHATO's events.
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1048599265398968325


Pfff ha... Whatever. I'm not reading Batman.
Could be that Jason shot him in other place in the end. Could be that he gained a cybernetic eye. Could be that they're really disregarding other author's work. I honestly don't care. And it seems that a lot of readers are aware of what happened in RHATO, so, eh... It's like looking at rainfail at this point. I'm honestly only looking for stand alone issues in Batman's run, at this point, and enjoy myself. Those tend to be quite good, actually.

----------


## Restingvoice

> It is actually a coincidence. Lobdell has been pitching the idea of Jason going solo for a while now simply because he was getting burned out of writing a team. The whole thing with the Three Jokers is something that came after the fact. 
> 
> That said, the biggest issue with Johns is his tendency of writing characters as _he_ thinks is the "iconic" version of the character , with little regard to the way they've been handled by other writers in the past. And everything so far seems to indicate that for Johns, Jason is the slightly deranged ass from UtRH.


Ah ok then. It's just such an extreme difference that it feels like editorial interference. 

He does do that. The Superboy being Superman and Lex clone was his idea and changed the character is the most memorable example to me.




> Pfff ha... Whatever. I'm not reading Batman.
> Could be that Jason shot him in another place in the end. Could be that he gained a cybernetic eye. Could be that they're really disregarding other author's work. I honestly don't care. And it seems that a lot of readers are aware of what happened in RHATO, so, eh... It's like looking at rainfail at this point. I'm honestly only looking for stand alone issues in Batman's run, at this point, and enjoy myself. Those tend to be quite good, actually.


I think that's a flashback since in the other preview we saw Penguin wearing an eyepatch when he returned to Iceberg Lounge. 

Usually, when King and Janin go full camp like that, in this case using weaponized umbrella and penguins in a one on one fight, it's usually fanservice flashback. Like how they made flashback Catwoman wearing all her classic costumes.

----------


## Zaresh

> In which volume does the Patrician of Ankh Morpork appear? I only read the first one - and that's a while ago.


Lord Vetinari is a supporting character in all of the City Watch books. These include:
- Guards! Guards?
- Men at Arms
- Feet of Clay
- Jingo (here he's actually a protagonist alongside Vimes)
- The Fifth Elephant
- Night Watch
- Thud!

As well as other books outside those, because, well, he's the one who really rules the city. Think of Littlefinger in A Song of Ice and Fire; but more like Varys, because he really works for the City, and not just himself (even if he's the city. Quoting Pratchett: "Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote". Such a plotter; has most of the characters in his hand and they don't realize most of the time.




> My theory so far is that Willis is the one behind the Henchmen app with the purpose to help small-time criminals, who are forced to do dirty jobs because of bad circumstances, to find the "safest" crime lord to work for - so that they don't have to suffer the same fate as he did. He could also use the app to gather information from former henchmen about all the crime lords and use the information later if necessary.
> 
> What kind of alignment would that be?


True Neutral, probably, towards chaotic. He'd be working within the system at times, sometimes for himself, sometimes for other, with a light gray moral behind. A bit lighter than what I was thinking about.




> But I fear, Willis is a villain. He seemed nice in his confrontation with Ma Gunn - but not so when he met Bizarro in the bar. His different faces make me wonder if he could have some kind of split personality as the result of the experiments done on him. If he has some mental issues I hope that they can be healed by S'aru or someone else.


Could be. But I don't think he has a personality disorder. He probably is just a very motivated plotter, a mean one with those he dislikes (not unlike Jason), but way more cold than his son. He doesn't seem like a good person, so even if he cares for his son and family, I suspect he has no qualms about using both for his plots in mean ways (and of course the other outlaws), even if the end is, well, not a very bad one.

He was mad at Biz because he was ruining his plot, probably.

We have seem so little from him, I cannot wait until we get to know more.

----------


## Zaresh

> Ah ok then. It's just such an extreme difference that it feels like editorial interference. 
> 
> He does do that. The Superboy being Superman and Lex clone was his idea and changed the character is the most memorable example to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a flashback since in the other preview we saw Penguin wearing an eyepatch when he returned to Iceberg Lounge. 
> 
> Usually, when King and Janin go full camp like that, in this case using weaponized umbrella and penguins in a one on one fight, it's usually fanservice flashback. Like how they made flashback Catwoman wearing all her classic costumes.


A flashback, right. I totally forgot it could be a flashback. Good point.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Lord Vetinari is a supporting character in all of the City Watch books. These include:
> - Guards! Guards?
> - Men at Arms
> - Feet of Clay
> - Jingo (here he's actually a protagonist alongside Vimes)
> - The Fifth Elephant
> - Night Watch
> - Thud!
> 
> ...


Though, he does seem to like Artemis, from what little we saw of that.

For a lighter note, the Outlaws decide to play catch.

----------


## Zaresh

> Though, he does seem to like Artemis, from what little we saw of that.
> 
> For a lighter note, the Outlaws decide to play catch.


Ah, ah, I'm laughing my ass off.

Yeah, he seems to like Artemis. Maybe because Jason likes her; maybe because he likes bold women (like Catherine apparently was). I really, really, really cannot wait to see more about Willis and, of course, Art and Biz.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> “If Arkham Asylum is a metaphor for evil, killing Robins is a metaphor for bad writing,” King said, throwing shade but quickly backing off and explaining his own joke. “What am I doing taking the piss out of Jim Starlin. He was helicopter pilot in Vietnam and could kick my ass.” Starlin and artist Jim Aparo famously killed off Jason Todd after fans voted for it via 900 number in 1988’s A Death in the Family.
> 
> “Anyone who killed Robins in the past is super handsome and did it perfectly,” King continued. However, “killing Robins now is too easy.”


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...ll-any-robins/

This sound like a pot calling the kettle back situation.

EDIT:




> Jason is wearing the jacket one of Joker’s thugs was wearing the night Joker shot Babs.


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...ff-johns-nycc/

C'MON

----------


## G-Potion

Pfff the irony.

And what's with the recent obsession with Jason stealing clothes.

----------


## Godlike13

So if im understanding this, the implication with the Jacket is that Jason hunted those guys down. Ya, I dont hate that.

----------


## Zaresh

Well, killing Robins wasn't easy  30 years ago, Mr. King.
Unless you were a hater with access to a phone and dialed in automatic. Hmm, wonder how much cash the guy wasted at it.

So maybe the three Joker stories are in certain order and are interconnected? I dunno. I wouldn't care the slightest if he steals jackets or whatsoever. But that jacket is cool, so I approve. It's probably nothing meant to be meaningful. Or maybe not; maybe the reason for that and for his costume being so Robinesque is because it has an instory reason. We will see.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is incredibly tasteless though, Jason beating the Joker doesn't make him walk around in Joker's Hawaiian shirt acceptable, even less if Barbara is around.

----------


## G-Potion

Maybe he just knows good taste when he sees it.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Is incredibly tasteless though, Jason beating the Joker doesn't make him walk around in Joker's Hawaiian shirt acceptable, even less if Barbara is around.


I get your point, and it is a bit too of bad taste. But it could be two things, or I came up with two cases that could be.

It could be a way to show his mood, a way of reclaiming his fighting record. Like cutting or stealing something from your enemy when you beat them. It's something warriors of the old did. If he were to deal with Joker, not only for himself, but for others as well, and he were to face those thugs, he could easily reclaim one of their jackets as a sign. Not that I like this reasoning (it depends of Jason's mental state at the time), but it could be the case.
It could also be that he beat the guy, and took his jacket because it was a nice jacket and he needed one. Not the first time it has happened. It happened in issue 26 just a month ago. I think it happened once before too. Not something that I would mind, honestly. I prefer this option.
I doubt he would go meet Barbara with that jacket on, in any case. But he would go fight more thugs with it, just to state his mind to them: I'm here, I did beat that guy and I'm going to beat you guys as well.

Or it could be something else. I seriously doubt it's even something really important. Now that I realized about the suit, I think him wearing that suit with the R holds way more meaning behind.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If you've read Doomsday Clock you'll know Johns has the subtlety of a brick to the face.

And please, one thing is taking a hoodie from a random nobody, and other very different to take a piece of clothing that is notorious precisely by its ties to a crime.

Is as if Jason suddenly started wearing something from the guy that killed Roy.

----------


## Zaresh

> If you've read Doomsday Clock you'll know Johns has the subtlety of a brick to the face.
> 
> And please, one thing is taking a hoodie from a random nobody, and other very different to take a piece of clothing that is notorious precisely by its ties to a crime.
> 
> Is as if Jason suddenly started wearing something from the guy that killed Roy.


I suspect this is just Johns way to hype the book. I seriously doubt it will be something impactful, really. He got the thug beaten, he got his jacket, he put on that jacket, and went with it for the rest of the story. That's what I'm expecting to happen. But if you want to think about it at the risk of getting mad for nothing, I'm not going to stop you, Dark. I  really, really think it's not worth it  :Frown: .

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

If the whole thing is inconsequential, then why making the point of being the same jacket?

Also I remember you guys getting upset at the idea of Jason using the crowbar he was murdered with on The Outlaw or that time that Damian left a crowbar on Jason's bed. Would you guys be okay if Barbara were running around with that crowbar?

----------


## Zaresh

> If the whole thing is inconsequential, then why making the point of being the same jacket?
> 
> Also I remember you guys getting upset at the idea of Jason using the crowbar he was murdered with on The Outlaw or that time that Damian left a crowbar on Jason's bed. Would you guys be okay if Barbara were running around with that crowbar?


I honestly cannot remember what I said that I felt at the time someone said that the crowbar was The Crowbar, but I probably felt it was not a good move, because it hurts Jason's psyche, mostly, because it shows a deranged state of mind: using the tool that you were beaten with to beat others. Understable, though. And also, I do remember thinking it probably was just a thing you say when you want to hype something with some shocking stuff. It probably has some relevance in the story, though, and is well reasoned. We will see in a few months, if they still use that card.

That being said, I don't think using a weapon that was used to hurt someone, for hurting others, is the same as wearing the jacket of some guy that beat your friend to state your point to other guys that also beat your friend. It's not the same. Your friend wasn't beaten with that jacked, and you're not going to go and see your friend wearing it. You want to make across your point to the bad guys that you beat that first guy and they must fear you. Or not even that. You needed a jacket, you took it, and proceeded to go forward without any other intention behind it. Not that it wouldn't work either, for a story about vengeance, if Jason were going to use the gun that they used for shooting Babs and went to shoot the guys. For a vengeance story, it's not even an original narrative: it has happened. You can think that it's of bad taste, and sure, it is, but only if they want it to mean something... well, meaningful, and it could also serve as a proof of the character's insides at that moment, (even if we dislike what we're seeing).

But as I said, I don't think it even deserves all the words I'm investing in these post. For me, it's just a nice jacket and a shocking comment that is meant to catch reader's interest.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm optimistic. Jason has enough emotional baggage that Johns could analyze. As @JasonTodd428, I believe that Jason hasn't completely come to terms with his own death and could still go through some stages of grief and loss.
> Although there have been several deaths and resurrections in the past of the DC universe I still think Jason's death and resurrection has some special (and sad) touch to it. When he came back, he was alone and there wasn't a place he could go back to, as he saw it.
> Bruce had thrown his body in a grave, put all his stuff in some far away corner of the bat cave and got himself a new Robin while the Joker was alive and Bruce Wayne/Batman acted in public like nothing had changed. For Jason, there was no sign of Bruce grieving, no sign that he had ever truly cared about Jason. (And don't get me started on this "Good Soldier" memorial case.)
> 
> There is no denying that Jason loves Bruce and probably still sees him as a father figure. I don't want to be dramatic by saying that Jason would die for Bruce but is that assumption really too far fetched? But dying for someone and living with someone are two different things. Jason and Bruce will never have a relationship like Bruce and Dick or Bruce and Damian, because of their different moralities. Jason should surround himself with people who have similar believes and don't judge him for his, people who love him as he is. And personally, it hurts me emotionally if I see how far Bruce goes for Dick (Forever Evil, or the current arc in Batman with KGBeast) or for Damian (Damian's death and resurrection) compared to his behavior when it comes to Jason.


Jason does deserve some happiness.  He's sure never had any in his life.  As for Bruce, he hasn't shown any particular reaction to Dick's headshot in the current arc beyond breaking down a couple of doors, which he'd do anyway.  In Forever Evil, he just stood around and let Luthor do all the work.  He did WRONG by Jason all the way.  Dick and Jason are both a "So what?" to him.  Good soldiers.  Circumstances provided him with a CHANCE to bring back his biological son, and he took it.  As a father, I can't blame him.  However, I wonder why he even bothered since Damian has more or less been relegated to the dustbin of the cave.  Tim is the only one he really cares about, as evidenced by his creepy behavior in "War games,"

----------


## Restingvoice

> Jason does deserve some happiness.  He's sure never had any in his life.  As for Bruce, he hasn't shown any particular reaction to Dick's headshot in the current arc beyond breaking down a couple of doors, which he'd do anyway.  In Forever Evil, he just stood around and let Luthor do all the work.  He did WRONG by Jason all the way.  Dick and Jason are both a "So what?" to him.  Good soldiers.  Circumstances provided him with a CHANCE to bring back his biological son, and he took it.  As a father, I can't blame him.  However, I wonder why he even bothered since Damian has more or less been relegated to the dustbin of the cave.  Tim is the only one he really cares about, as evidenced by his creepy behavior in "War games,"


No, Bruce pretty much acted the same when Damian died. He didn't talk about it, didn't want to talk about it, he just wants to go out and beat people up, and he doesn't sleep. The one enemy he has to find is clear so he doesn't waste time and just go. It's only after Leviathan was defeated that he started to think about bringing Damian back. 

In Forever Evil it's more subtle at first but he's distracted. Then after he saw Dick in the Murder Machine he's just out. Pure emotion. To the point where Lex can steal from him but he didn't notice. He "stood around" because he couldn't think.

As for Jason, we know it's because DC don't have intention to bring Jason back. It was a different time, where dead characters don't just come back to life. Can't forget about what happen outside comic when the decision is from outside.

----------


## Sergard

I'm confused. When did Jason even get the jacket? Did he get it directly after TKJ (I believe, originally, TKJ happened before DitF, or? I don't know how the events are set in current continuity), or did he find the thug years later after his resurrection?
I don't mind Jason wearing it. It's basically on the same level as the stolen hoodie in RHatO #26. There you also have a thug involved in a crime, the murder of a FBI-agent and the attempted murder of another one (Melissa), and Jason takes his hoodie as victory prize. And it's stylish (although I would have wished that he had washed it first. That guy was probably pretty sweaty.)

----------


## Armor of God

> If we take this tweet at face value, so much for King acknowledging RHATO's events.
> 
> https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1048599265398968325


I think that these panels are probably from a flashback.

----------


## Armor of God

The jacket worn by the sole visible Joker thug did not have a hoodie with a red outline.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I'm confused. When did Jason even get the jacket? Did he get it directly after TKJ (I believe, originally, TKJ happened before DitF, or? I don't know how the events are set in current continuity), or did he find the thug years later after his resurrection?
> I don't mind Jason wearing it. It's basically on the same level as the stolen hoodie in RHatO #26. There you also have a thug involved in a crime, the murder of a FBI-agent and the attempted murder of another one (Melissa), and Jason takes his hoodie as victory prize. And it's stylish (although I would have wished that he had washed it first. That guy was probably pretty sweaty.)


TKJ does happen before DiTF in both Post Crisis and New 52, but both Jason are still Robin at the time. Since the jacket is special for this story I'm going to assume he gets it recently.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The jacket worn by the sole visible Joker thug did not have a hoodie with a red outline.


When has that stopped Johns?

----------


## Sergard

> The jacket worn by the sole visible Joker thug did not have a hoodie with a red outline.


Maybe Jason is secretly a master at the sewing machine?

----------


## Sergard

From Pete Woods' twitter:

_Desk shot. This guy is fun to draw._
source

----------


## G-Potion

> Maybe Jason is secretly a master at the sewing machine?


Like how he sewed his post AK Red Hood garb? :P

----------


## G-Potion

> From Pete Woods' twitter:
> 
> _Desk shot. This guy is fun to draw._
> source


Cool! I love how Woods never fails to convey how hurt it's gonna be on the receiving end.

----------


## Jackalope89

Alternate timeline Jason and Artemis. Sort of.

----------


## G-Potion

lol that is a good mix of alternate selves. Now I can't stop imagining Artemis kicking big bad BftC Jason around.

----------


## DIVINITY

> *It is actually a coincidence. Lobdell has been pitching the idea of Jason going solo for a while now simply because he was getting burned out of writing a team.* The whole thing with the Three Jokers is something that came after the fact.





> Newsarama: Scott, what brought about the changes were seeing in Red Hood and the Outlaws right now?
> 
> Scott Lobdell: Id like to think the best series are the ones that are always changing, no?
> 
> As much as everyone loves the dynamic between Jason, Artemis and Bizarro (I have it on good authority Red Hood and the Outlaws is a favorite around the DC offices), *there were some discussions way above my pay grade: What would happen if Jason were alone for a while?*


See *Bolded!*

----------


## RedBird

Tyler Kirkham

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> See *Bolded!*


It was approved now, but is something Lobdell has been lobbying for a while. Lobdell acknowledges himself on that same interview you're linking with his "best series are those that keep changing" comment.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm happy that Woods is having fun with and is proud of his work on RHATO.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Eh, I'm not feeling the art yet.

----------


## G-Potion

I think his fight choreography is excellent. Let's see if #27 delivers on the emotions.

----------


## Zaresh

I'm just happy that we keep getting people that really become invested in the book and the characters. And it doesn't sound fake. So much luck.




> I think his fight choreography is excellent. Let's see if #27 delivers on the emotions.


I think the same. Really good stuff. And not easy to pull, however you like the art style itself. 

27 is going to be a new trial, yep. New mood, new pacing, new kind of paneling... Or it should be very different at least, in theory, I think.

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...33342335393794




> Here’s a test image I did while we were working out Jason’s costume. It’s close here but we still had a way to go. For process junkies I included my layer palette. What can I say? I like piling on the layers.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...33342335393794


Juicy  :Big Grin: 

(more characters written)

----------


## RedBird

j2ksa



I hope the three jokers story outfit is just for that story alone. I love Jasons classic/rebirth look way too much to give it up.

----------


## G-Potion

Me too. I'm only fine with it as a one time costume.

----------


## G-Potion

Will be a long time before we see this happen. (Unless Bruce does the unthinkable and comforts Jason about Roy)

https://twitter.com/gbj_Bellgreen

----------


## Aahz

> Me too. I'm only fine with it as a one time costume.


Like the black jacket and the hood, but I'm not a fan of the Robin like "chest piece".

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Rise

Variant cover for #28

----------


## G-Potion

These covers keep rockin'.  :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> Variant cover for #28


Soo pretty. And I see that she's going for showing Jason alone in the variants; kind of a point, I guess, with him going solo.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Will be a long time before we see this happen. (Unless Bruce does the unthinkable and comforts Jason about Roy)
> 
> https://twitter.com/gbj_Bellgreen


After today's issue, this isn't as unlikely.

----------


## G-Potion

Ha! I spoke too soon apparently.

----------


## G-Potion

A #27 fic to put salt on your wound.

Parting on Good Terms by Comicfan

----------


## G-Potion

http://milissas.tumblr.com/post/178424398899

----------


## RedBird

lindatart

----------


## RedBird



----------


## Sergard

It's nice to see that at the moment Red Hood #27 is second place in the Top 10 Bestsellers List on https://www.readdc.com/
Does anyone know which time frame the website uses for their bestsellers calculation? Last 24 hours? Maybe that's an aftereffect of people hearing that Bruce is in the issue.
Comixology lists the issue at rank 14 (rank 6 if you only look at the DC titles).
In the end, I don't care about the ranking itself. But it's good to see indications that the title is "stable" and far away from being canceled in near future.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's nice to see that at the moment Red Hood #27 is second place in the Top 10 Bestsellers List on https://www.readdc.com/
> Does anyone know which time frame the website uses for their bestsellers calculation? Last 24 hours? Maybe that's an aftereffect of people hearing that Bruce is in the issue.
> Comixology lists the issue at rank 14 (rank 6 if you only look at the DC titles).
> In the end, I don't care about the ranking itself. But it's good to see indications that the title is "stable" and far away from being canceled in near future.


Awesome. Last week RHATO was third place I think.

----------


## G-Potion

> 


I just love how emotive his helmet is.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

https://jjmk-jjmk.tumblr.com/post/179008060707/fan-art

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## G-Potion

:Frown: 

https://twitter.com/Mitografia/statu...48100393218048

----------


## RedBird

Oh Gosh, I saw that image earlier, figured it was a tribute, didn't see the caption though  :Frown:

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh Gosh, I saw that image earlier, figured it was a tribute, didn't see the caption though


It's so sad, but also, it's nice to see so many people giving him their condolences.

As always, beautiful art.

----------


## Sergard

https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...98954518376448

_Weekend desk shot. Guest star!_

----------


## Jackalope89

"Well, Aunty Kate. Ready to shoot up some pieces of crap?"
"I'm not technically your aunt."
"Your point?"

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/A_sebury

----------


## RedBird

axietoh

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/DCComics/status/1051502968879673350

 :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

RHatO#26 made it back into the Top 100.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...eptember-2018/

----------


## Zaresh

I cannot believe that it seems like RHATO is gaining readers (for the right reasons). Not a thing I see every day. I'm a happy fangirl right now :_).

I mean, it's not much, but at least it's not dying yet.

----------


## G-Potion

Combined that with recently good digital sales as well. Looks like DC's direction for RHATO is working. Or at least it makes people curious enough to try it out. I'm hopeful.   :Embarrassment:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oof

----------


## Sergard

Source
_the countdown to final crisis trio_

----------


## Jackalope89

> Source
> _the countdown to final crisis trio_


You know, for someone infamous for dying, being hot-headed, reckless, shoot first, jump next, and forgets to ask questions, Jason has otherwise stayed alive pretty well through some pretty big events.

----------


## Zaresh

> You know, for someone infamous for dying, being *hot-headed, reckless, shoot first, jump next, and forgets to ask questions*, Jason has otherwise stayed alive pretty well through some pretty big events.


Hmm...

That's not really Jason, in my opinion. Yes, he has anger management issues and is quite moody, but he rarely is any of those things. He takes risks a lot, but often calculated, even if... well, almost suicidal. But you could really say the same about Tim or Dick, actually. Remember that Jason is almost as good strategist and tactician as Bruce (something a lot of people tends to forget). He is explosive when he breaks, but he rarely breaks; he only breaks when his feelings get the best of him. His violence is blunt, brutal and fast, which is why you may think he's trigger happy; but he has a disturbing calm and cold feel to his violence, and he always asks what he needs before shooting or cause deadly violence. He is mouthy, but he often is so because he wants to point out something no one wants to hear or he wants to provoke someone (which is something Robins are trained to be, even if Jason is a natural). Jason is very smart and very introspective, no matter how some part of the fandom wants to make a classic red oni trope out of him.

----------


## Knight27

> Hmm...
> 
> That's not really Jason, in my opinion. Yes, he has anger management issues and is quite moody, but he rarely is any of those things. He takes risks a lot, but often calculated, even if... well, almost suicidal. But you could really say the same about Tim or Dick, actually. Remember that Jason is almost as good strategist and tactician as Bruce (something a lot of people tends to forget). He is explosive when he breaks, but he rarely breaks; he only breaks when his feelings get the best of him. His violence is blunt, brutal and fast, which is why you may think he's trigger happy; but he has a disturbing calm and cold feel to his violence, and he always asks what he needs before shooting or cause deadly violence. He is mouthy, but he often is so because he wants to point out something no one wants to hear or he wants to provoke someone (which is something Robins are trained to be, even if Jason is a natural). Jason is very smart and very introspective, no matter how some part of the fandom wants to make a classic red oni trope out of him.


It's usually sites like tumblr that like to turn him into a classic red oni trope, but the less said about that place the better lol

----------


## Jackalope89

> Hmm...
> 
> That's not really Jason, in my opinion. Yes, he has anger management issues and is quite moody, but he rarely is any of those things. He takes risks a lot, but often calculated, even if... well, almost suicidal. But you could really say the same about Tim or Dick, actually. Remember that Jason is almost as good strategist and tactician as Bruce (something a lot of people tends to forget). He is explosive when he breaks, but he rarely breaks; he only breaks when his feelings get the best of him. His violence is blunt, brutal and fast, which is why you may think he's trigger happy; but he has a disturbing calm and cold feel to his violence, and he always asks what he needs before shooting or cause deadly violence. He is mouthy, but he often is so because he wants to point out something no one wants to hear or he wants to provoke someone (which is something Robins are trained to be, even if Jason is a natural). Jason is very smart and very introspective, no matter how some part of the fandom wants to make a classic red oni trope out of him.


Babs disagrees.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Zaresh

> Babs disagrees.
> 
> [here goes a big picture]


Er...

Just for the record, I'm not arguing, not seriously. I know it's a joke.
BUT.
Just for the sake of having some fun discussion.
I think irresponsible isn't the same as reckless.

I'm not a native speaker, but I would think that irresponsible means that he doesn't make himself responsible of his actions, or that he indulges himself in actions that could cause problems to others. And Jason sometimes does that. Sometimes. Some others he feels responsible for things that are not his fault. He's human.

Reckless, on the other hand, means that he engages into action without thinking about the consequences, without taking into account the risks and its consequences. He rarely does that, I think. He takes a lot of risks, but knowing what that risk implies, and what harm could cause.

He's only reckless when he is driven by his emotions. Which is something that happens sometimes. Fewer times. Like it has happened with Penguin a few issues ago. But take on what he did to the underlife bad guys in issue 26. That was definitely not reckless; he even calculated the timing for the big bad to get into that car in time for Jason to see him blow up. That means planification and calculating risks. Same as most of the stuff he pulled out in Under the Hood, actually.

Or at least, that's how I see it. But as I said, I'm not a native speaker, and sure I have my own version of Jason on my head that is very subjective (welp).

----------


## Konja7

As most characters on comics, I guess it depends of the writers and their interpretation of the character.

Maybe other writers interpret his behavior as impulsive or reckless, it can depends on opinions. 


That said, maybe the reputation that Jason is impulsive and reckless originate because he has issues related to rage.

----------


## Zaresh

> As most characters on comics, I guess it depends of the writers and their interpretation of the character.
> 
> Maybe other writers interpret his behavior as impulsive or reckless, it can depends on opinions. 
> 
> 
> That said, maybe the reputation that Jason is impulsive and reckless originate because he has issues related to rage.


Nah, I still think it's because people tend to fit him as a pretty straighforward trope, the red oni, what with him being loud, wearing red and using blunt violence in his figthing and being emotional driven. It's not only the rage. Bruce has anger issues as well and they don't paint him as reckless, rather the conctrary.

Add that trope to the neccesity of having to draw him in a few thrown lines when he's a supporting character (that often means you have to cut a character to basic traits, unless you are a very subtle writer) and you get reckless, angry bird Jason who may or may not be a psychopath who likes to joke.

It's understable, I guess; but that shouldn't be how people see him in stories that tell him more insight. I still wonder what we will get in the three Jokers' story. Seeley, who has Jason as his least favourite main Robin I think, acchieved a middle way to my tastes: he got a pretty decent picture of how I understand the character, but it was still a flawed take (he was still a bit to impulsive and mouthy in my opinion). But as you said, a lot of how I see the character has a lot to do with how writers see him. And I definitively see him as how Winnick and Lobdell writing made me see Jason, intentionally or not. A lot, too depends on the reader, he he.

----------


## Sergard

The preview to Teen Titans #23 is out. http://www.comicosity.com/exclusive-...een-titans-23/
Jason is nowhere to be seen. But I'm still hoping he'll appear in the issue.
The first two pages remind me of Jason shooting Penguin.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Aahz

> That's not really Jason, in my opinion. Yes, he has anger management issues and is quite moody, but he rarely is any of those things. He takes risks a lot, but often calculated, even if... well, almost suicidal. But you could really say the same about Tim or Dick, actually.


The thing is that there are a lot of modern stories about Dicks time as Robin where he is reckless and disobedient. And if I look at the amnesic version in the last issue, he seems more reckless than Jason ever was.

Btw. when I look at Jason's own book, Jason seems often to have quite well informed (I mean he is at the momenta apparently even providing Intel for Damian) and seems usually at least to have some preparation.

----------


## Arsenal

RED HOOD: OUTLAW #30
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art and cover by PETE WOODS
variant cover by PHILIP TAN
Will the Red Hood’s latest campaign be his last? Jason’s hot on the heels of the drugs he and Arsenal recently tracked to Beijing, but instead of finally encountering the mysterious Solitary, he finds himself face to face with a figure from his past. Plus, who’s the new Wingman, and why’s he tracking the Red Hood? And how can he and Jason be in the same place at the same time? Find out in “Outlaw” part five!
ON SALE 01.16.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES

TEEN TITANS ANNUAL #1
written by ADAM GLASS
art by RYAN BENJAMIN
cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
Betrayed by the Red Hood, Damian hunts down Jason Todd and vows vengeance—or death! Meanwhile, Djinn and the rest of the Titans battle one of the Other’s closest allies—Joy Stick! (Making his DCU debut from the Teen Titans Go! universe.) But when Control Freak learns all of Djinn’s most dangerous secrets, Djinn will do anything to keep the Teen Titans from finding out the truth!

----------


## Zaresh

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #30
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art and cover by PETE WOODS
> variant cover by PHILIP TAN
> Will the Red Hood’s latest campaign be his last? Jason’s hot on the heels of the drugs he and Arsenal recently tracked to Beijing, but instead of finally encountering the mysterious Solitary, he finds himself face to face with a figure from his past. Plus, who’s the new Wingman, and why’s he tracking the Red Hood? And how can he and Jason be in the same place at the same time? Find out in “Outlaw” part five!
> ON SALE 01.16.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> 
> TEEN TITANS ANNUAL #1
> ...


I... I don't know what's happening anymore. December solicits say nothing that could head to these two solicits as far as I recall. There is a gasp I cannot fathom the change to fill in.

----------


## RedBird

> TEEN TITANS ANNUAL #1
> written by ADAM GLASS
> art by RYAN BENJAMIN
> cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
> Betrayed by the Red Hood, Damian hunts down Jason Todd and vows vengeanceor death! Meanwhile, Djinn and the rest of the Titans battle one of the Others closest alliesJoy Stick! (Making his DCU debut from the Teen Titans Go! universe.) But when Control Freak learns all of Djinns most dangerous secrets, Djinn will do anything to keep the Teen Titans from finding out the truth!


Oh joy......Jasons the bad guy. What a surprise. SIGH

----------


## Rise

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #30
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art and cover by PETE WOODS
> variant cover by PHILIP TAN
> Will the Red Hoods latest campaign be his last? Jasons hot on the heels of the drugs he and Arsenal recently tracked to Beijing, but instead of finally encountering the mysterious *Solitary*, he finds himself face to face with a figure from his past. Plus, whos the new Wingman, and whys he tracking the Red Hood? And how can he and Jason be in the same place at the same time? Find out in Outlaw part five!
> ON SALE 01.16.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES


Wait, what? Is Lobdell finally going to address this plot point? Because YES.

----------


## Zaresh

> Wait, what? Is Lobdell finally going to address this plot point? Because YES.


And it seems like he finds out who he is. And there seems to be someone pretending to be him. A lot going on that was in no way hinted last solicit. Or I don't remember anything hinting to it. It's a bit out of left field for me, all this... I don't know, haste? For advancing the plot when we have been steadily-but-in-no-hurry advancing for a while.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Cover RHTO #30

redhood30.jpg

Still looking for TT Annual

----------


## Sergard

No more variant covers by Yasmine Putri  :Frown:  How is Philip Tan's art?
Still not a fan of how Woods draws Jason's face. Apart from that the cover gives me "Batman: Under the Red Hood" vibes (the movie), a bathroom, a guy tied to a chair and a crowbar.
The new Wingman makes me curious. When was Jason Wingman? Are there a lot of stories?

I feared that Jason would be the traitor in Teen Titans. (Is that a crowbar in Damian's hands on the cover?)
Well, that team-up of Jason and Damian was pretty short-lived.

Why are you guys thinking that Solitary will be addressed? Doesn't "Instead of" indicate that the opposite is the case?

TT Annual:

----------


## Zaresh

> No more variant covers by Yasmine Putri  How is Philip Tan's art?
> Still not a fan of how Woods draws Jason's face. Apart from that the cover gives me "Batman: Under the Red Hood" vibes (the movie), a bathroom, a guy tied to a chair and a crowbar.
> The new Wingman makes me curious. *When was Jason Wingman?* Are there a lot of stories?
> 
> I feared that Jason would be the traitor in Teen Titans. (Is that a crowbar in Damian's hands on the cover?)
> Well, that team-up of Jason and Damian was pretty short-lived.
> 
> Why are you guys thinking that Solitary will be addressed? Doesn't "Instead of" indicate that the opposite is the case?


Batman Incorporated vol. 2? Just after FP was done, already in N52 stuff. He formed a brief partnership with Damian there, so I'm guessing this issue is connected to TT annual, somehow.

And, welp, Solitary is addressed. Jason looks for him already, but it seems that when he finds him, he finds someone from his past. It screams Willis everywhere, who we know is Solitary. But it could be a red herring.

----------


## Arsenal

> No more variant covers by Yasmine Putri  How is Philip Tan's art?
> Still not a fan of how Woods draws Jason's face. Apart from that the cover gives me "Batman: Under the Red Hood" vibes (the movie), a bathroom, a guy tied to a chair and a crowbar.
> The new Wingman makes me curious. When was Jason Wingman? Are there a lot of stories?
> 
> I feared that Jason would be the traitor in Teen Titans. (Is that a crowbar in Damian's hands on the cover?)
> Well, that team-up of Jason and Damian was pretty short-lived.
> 
> Why are you guys thinking that Solitary will be addressed? Doesn't "Instead of" indicate that the opposite is the case?
> 
> TT Annual:


He was Wingman in Batman Incorprated.

----------


## Arsenal

Given the solicits for this months Teen Titans, Jason is likely to appear in some form so we might get a better idea of what the annual means.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Phillip Tan work is a mixed bag.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Ph...n/Cover_Artist

----------


## Aioros22

Pretty clear that Jason`s "betrayal" of Damian will rely on Solitary playing the strings again and/or/as Wingman. 

It`s not a coincidence both covers depict someone holding the crowbar and it`s not Jason.

Also, it`s confirmed that in the Batman Beyond comic-verse Jason died at the hands of the Joker. Old J (who is not "Tim" in this verse?) is targetting Terry`s brother - who is the new Robin - while holding a crowbar. 

Crow. 

bars. 

everywhere

----------


## Zaresh

> Pretty clear that Jason`s "betrayal" of Damian will rely on Solitary playing the strings again and/or/as Wingman. 
> 
> It`s not a coincidence both covers depict someone holding the crowbar and it`s not Jason.


Yeah, that's what I was working towards now, the idea that both stories are connected, and that Jason has been somehow set up by someone else for Damian to break their deal and hunt him. Either Solitary or Bane, if all this "Bane is the one isolating the batfam" conspiracy ends up Being a real thing.

----------


## Rise

Don't like the cover for issue 30 because it doesn't seem like a cover. 

Honestly, don't know what's going with DC because most of their books have unappealing covers in Jan.




> And it seems like he finds out who he is. And there seems to be someone pretending to be him. A lot going on that was in no way hinted last solicit. Or I don't remember anything hinting to it. It's a bit out of left field for me, all this... I don't know, haste? For advancing the plot when we have been steadily-but-in-no-hurry advancing for a while.


The plot with solitary has been running for two years now, but I sure hope Lobdell doesn't rush the reunion unnecessary and handle it well

----------


## Celgress

I'm (very) late to this party but it warms my (typically) cold heart to see so much love for my favorite Batman Family member other than Bats himself and Alfred of course. Long live Jason Todd the second and best Red Hood!  :Cool:

----------


## Rise

> Pretty clear that Jason`s "betrayal" of Damian will rely on Solitary playing the strings again and/or/as Wingman. 
> 
> It`s not a coincidence both covers depict someone holding the crowbar and it`s not Jason.
> 
> Also, it`s confirmed that in the Batman Beyond comic-verse Jason died at the hands of the Joker. Old J (who is not "Tim" in this verse?) is targetting Terry`s brother - who is the new Robin - while holding a crowbar. 
> 
> Crow. 
> 
> bars. 
> ...


Yeah, it seemes that someone set them up or there's a misunderstanding. It's kinda obvious, but still not interested with whatever's going on in TT and I don't think Solitary has something to do with it either.

----------


## Zaresh

A pity, that bit about Jason in Beyond. I was wondering how both Jason and Terry would interact at some point. Mostly curiosity, but, alas: if Jason's death, I doubt that will happen.

----------


## G-Potion

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #30
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art and cover by PETE WOODS
> variant cover by PHILIP TAN
> Will the Red Hood’s latest campaign be his last? Jason’s hot on the heels of the drugs he and Arsenal recently tracked to Beijing, but instead of finally encountering the mysterious Solitary, he finds himself face to face with a figure from his past. Plus, who’s the new Wingman, and why’s he tracking the Red Hood? And how can he and Jason be in the same place at the same time? Find out in “Outlaw” part five!
> ON SALE 01.16.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> 
> TEEN TITANS ANNUAL #1
> ...


This month's solicitation certainly impressed me more than the last one. Solitary plot potentially picks up and pretender/alternate Jason? Sign me in. 

As for Teen Titans. Welp that was short-lived. I hope it turns out to be a fake "betrayal" or as you people speculated, someone else doing it.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm (very) late to this party but it warms my (typically) cold heart to see so much love for *my favorite Batman Family member* other than Bats himself and Alfred of course. Long live Jason Todd the second and best Red Hood!


You know you are late because he's now exiled from the family. Come on in! :P

----------


## Celgress

> You know you are late because he's now exiled from the family. Come on in! :P


I'm well aware but it won't last lol.

----------


## Jackalope89

So, someone took up Jay's old mantle of Wingman and is posing as him. Meanwhile, Damian is pissed that "Jason" betrayed him.

So, while hunting the imposter down, Jason is going to be betraying Damian, somehow? I smell setup.

But Demon Brat vs Smartass? Interesting, at least.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm well aware but it won't last lol.


In any case, welcome!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Oh god

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...man-crossover/

I swear it, if turns out one of those blanks ends up being Jason I'll be done with DC.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh god
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...man-crossover/


A lot of ifs, a lot of weak wild speculation, a lot of events going on at the same time right now.

It will be nothing, it will be located in action and super alone, and it will be boring, dissapointing and with a rushed end, as all other events writen by Bendis.

Small minievent, I'm sure. That's why I doubt he will mess up another of my faves (he messed Clint twice, but, whatever); Jason is a small character with no shock value as a villain for the average reader. But, well, who knows.

It will account to nothing in five years, in any case. I'm not even mad, just... indifferent.

I don't know how they don't see that readers in DC are starting to burn from all these events with grand plots "that will twist the fate of the heroes forever". Sure, it lures readers at the start, and that ups the sales; but in the end people just get more annoyed that anything and start leaving the books any event touches. Or at least that's what I've felt lately.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Oh god
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...man-crossover/


Wasn't exactly enjoying Bendis' current run in the Super comics. Bad enough he shipped Jon off into space and canceled Super Sons. Not to mention turning Barry into some freak hybrid of Barry and Wally at the same time.

Probably turn Jason into Dick Grayson or something.

----------


## Celgress

> ....Probably turn Jason into Dick Grayson or something.


I certainly hope not lol.

----------


## G-Potion

> Oh god
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/10...man-crossover/
> 
> I swear it, if turns out one of those blanks ends up being Jason I'll be done with DC.


I hope this isn't what Tumblr source means when they say TT/ TT Annual is the start of Jason's comic crossovers.

----------


## G-Potion

lol Woods...

https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...77254845456385




> Thinking of approaching Red Hood with a new style...

----------


## G-Potion

Desk shot. Broody Jason is broody.

----------


## Zaresh

> lol Woods...
> 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...77254845456385


Chibi Hoods are supercute, no matter how angry he looks in his custome.

----------


## G-Potion

A chibi Hood comics where he wreaks tiny havoc everywhere would be awesome.

----------


## Aahz

> A pity, that bit about Jason in Beyond. I was wondering how both Jason and Terry would interact at some point. Mostly curiosity, but, alas: if Jason's death, I doubt that will happen.


Not sure if he is. The current Batman Beyond is based on the current comics, so Jason came back from the dead, and unless he died a second time he should still be around.

----------


## Sergard

I've seen people speculating that Jason is "betraying" Damian by secretly giving information to Batman. That would fit together with the solicitation of Teen Titans #26 where Damian and the rest of the Teen Titans break into the Batcave. Maybe to find out if his father has a secret informant?
But I don't like the theory. It sounds like Jason is trying to be daddy's good little boy. I could understand that Jason doesn't want Damian to have the same complicated relationship with Bruce like he has, but especially Jason should also take the view that Damian needs to find his own way in life. In particular his own moral code that Damian can believe in and stand by. And if Jason thinks that Damian is crossing a line he shouldn't (because Jason believes for example that Damian would regret it later on) then Jason should be capable enough to step in and put a stop to it. No Batman needed.

----------


## G-Potion

http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/post/179127259950

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Jason. Ran out of candy for the munchkins. And now they're like baby ducks, following him wherever.

----------


## Sergard

Is the first kid dressed as a villain too?

I read Teen Titans #23 and Jason didn't have an appearance. But it was still a nice read.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Interesting answers




> _Nrama: Well, I can’t say he’s wrong. But you know, one of the other drastic changes is that, in the past, Dick was always the more upbeat, fearless Robin, and that carried over into his role as Nightwing. But now, he feels a little more like Jason Todd in some ways—detached from the world and more comfortable around outcasts (and, dare we say it, outlaws?). Scott, have the similarities come to mind as you’re writing both characters? Or are there more differences?
> _
> 
> *Lobdell:* I think Jason remembers every slight, every mistake, every act of violence whether committed by him or upon him.* I think he is driven alternately and equally by rage, revenge and redemption.* He is acutely aware of every busted and put back together again relationship with any of the other bats. And he feels his life was a disaster almost from the day he was born into poverty by his drug dealing father and his addict mother.
> 
> *Nicieza:* That was the one thing I had to feel my way through as I started helping out with the script. Scott really nails Jason well in his answer, I can only assume that in writing the character for what seems like 15 years he might have picked up a clue along the way. Differentiating Ric from Jason became a lot easier by the time I started working on #52. Just took a little bit of understanding Ric's headspace better.


https://www.newsarama.com/42366-new-...direction.html

----------


## Aioros22

Still hilarious that people consider them alike because of hairstyles or because they happen to be at a bar.

----------


## Zaresh

They are really pushing the Ric name for Blankslate Amnesiac Dick, eh? It's not going to stick, but, well, they can still try.

It really makes me happy that Lobdell has a take on Jason than align so much to my own. But I'm a bit confused by the 15 years of writing him. I guess Nicieza just mixed dates for the character. He came back in 2004, which sort of is almost 15 years, but Lobdell has been writing him since 2011, right?

I have to read that interview. I'm curious, I want to know what they have in mind for Nightwing.

----------


## Arsenal

> They are really pushing the Ric name for Blankstate Amnesiac Dick, eh? It's not going to stick, but, well, they can still try.
> 
> It really makes me happy that Lobdell has a take on Jason than align so much to my own. But I'm a bit confused by the 15 years of writing him. I guess Nicieza just mixed dates for the character. He came back in 2004, which sort of is almost 15 years, but Lobdell has been writing him since 2011, right?
> 
> I have to read that interview. I'm curious, I want to know what they have in mind for Nightwing.


Maybe Lobdell was writing Red Hood fanfics on the low for the first 7(ish) years?

----------


## Zaresh

> Maybe Lobdell was writing Red Hood fanfics on the low for the first 7(ish) years?


Hilarious, but doubtful xD
Either a mistake by Nicieza (my guess) or he didn't penned some collaboration with other writer, or I just missed some material or cannot remember something (highly possible too).

----------


## G-Potion

> Nightwing is a shitshow. *Lobdell is saying that but he is obviously giving Jason traits to Ric.* Nicieza is starting next issue. He has a lot of things to fix if this can even be readable.


_Obviously_. Say people who miss Jason's traits and reduce him to edgelord most of the time.

----------


## G-Potion

Anyway, read the interview. I think Lobdell summarized the difference between Jason and current Dick pretty well.

What he said about Jason specifically, well I think Jason's gonna hold a grudge against Kate. Bruce was lucky to get a pass for the favor he did in #27.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> They are really pushing the Ric name for Blankstate Amnesiac Dick, eh? It's not going to stick, but, well, they can still try.
> 
> It really makes me happy that Lobdell has a take on Jason than align so much to my own. But I'm a bit confused by the 15 years of writing him. I guess Nicieza just mixed dates for the character. He came back in 2004, which sort of is almost 15 years, but Lobdell has been writing him since 2011, right?
> 
> I have to read that interview. I'm curious, I want to know what they have in mind for Nightwing.


Nicieza was just joking. Like how in the first answer he gave he said he was brought to fix Lobdell's mess.

----------


## Zaresh

> Nicieza was just joking. Like how in the first answer he gave he said he was brought to fix Lobdell's mess.


Oh, that makes sense, I guess. The joke flew over my head completely.

Edit: I finaly read the interview. It was a fun interview, wow. And it gave a lot of info and insight to what they have in mind. I think they have a very pretty clear idea about how they see the character and what they want to tell with this story (which was something very in line with one of the things I hoped they would do). I still don't know what to make of this Nightwinges in plural stuff, but, the other bits were promising.

Edit2: nevermind. I read NW #51 too. Now I've got where these Nitghtwings are coming from.

----------


## RedBird

LEGO DC Super Villains Red Hood Boss Battle + Unlock and Free Roam Gameplay




Here's how to unlock the character

----------


## RedBird

Also Here's the stat screen, confirmed as a hero turned anti-hero.

----------


## joybeans

This is directed to both the Dick Grayson and Jason Todd Appreciation threads:

*Stop going to war with each other.* Don't go into the other thread to take passive-aggressive jabs. Don't attack creators. Don't gatekeep about how you know these characters better than others.

----------


## Jackalope89

> This is directed to both the Dick Grayson and Jason Todd Appreciation threads:
> 
> *Stop going to war with each other.* Don't go into the other thread to take passive-aggressive jabs. Don't attack creators. Don't gatekeep about how you know these characters better than others.


Ah, brotherly bonding. The only way these two can.

----------


## RedBird

Well, now that even the mods have had to step in I think it's safe to say, man, the tribalism in these forums is crazy. Wish I could actually appreciate both of these (and even more) characters without constant 'mines better!!' or 'WE are better!' undertones.




> Ah, brotherly bonding. The only way these two can.


Haha, I guess when it comes to these two boys, it is weirdly fitting.

----------


## Dataweaver

Tim's better than both of 'em!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But seriously. We have has five mainstream Robins so far: Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, and Damian; and I've found things to like about each of the five, including Damian (my personal least favorite of the bunch). I have my personal favorite, but I will not claim that he's objectively better than the rest.

----------


## G-Potion

Well at least in this thread I don't think anyone makes that claim nor deliberately brings the other robins up for comparison.

----------


## RedBird

> Tim's better than both of 'em! 
> 
> But seriously. We have has five mainstream Robins so far: Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, and Damian; and I've found things to like about each of the five, including Damian (my personal least favorite of the bunch). I have my personal favorite, but I will not claim that he's objectively better than the rest.


You dare to like _multiple_ Robins? Blah! Nay I say, it is too late, you can only pick one Robin and must banish the rest from your mind, now choose wisely!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Sorry I couldn't help it, but yeah man, I'm with you. They're all fantastic characters, so much so that my number 1 top place for favorite character is shared by three of these bats (I can never decide how to order them!).

----------


## G-Potion

Simple man, reorder accordingly for the thread you are in. Safe and sound  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.instagram.com/vinshota/

----------


## Zaresh

We are usually pretty civil here, I would say. Well, I vent badly when I find Bruce doing something awful, but, HEY! Not a robin! It doesn't count.

I like Damian the least too, and even so, I get interested by his advances and missadventures. Steph is a character I like too, and I would like to know more about. I like Tim a lot when he's well written, credible (and I find myself finding a lot of traits I can relate). I have a soft spot por Dick because Grayson. And you know how big my love for Jason is.

I will mention Terry too. I am a die hard fan of the origina Batman Beyond animation series: that one and TAS were my main contact with Batman from my, I think, 8 to middle teens. I didn't start to read batman comics until I was 20 or so. And Terry was awesome. I loved Spderman when I was a kid, and he gave me that spidyvibe. But with a bit of cyberpunk. In highlight, years later, Terry was bassically a teen Robin who was also Batman. And that's cool in my book of coolness even to this day.

----------


## oasis1313

Personally I am okay with venting at Bruce.  There a youtube video on the five worst things Bruce/Batman has done.  It's great.

----------


## Rise

> This is directed to both the Dick Grayson and Jason Todd Appreciation threads:
> 
> *Stop going to war with each other.* Don't go into the other thread to take passive-aggressive jabs. Don't attack creators. Don't gatekeep about how you know these characters better than others.


Why Aioros22 keep getting banned, but someone like yohyoi has been getting a pass despite being insulting toward the creators and the fans? It also sure took long enough for you to do something despite this going for months and there were some members who come here specifically to create troubles (and of course you include this thread despite being very civil).

----------


## Rise

> Lobdell: I think Jason remembers every slight, every mistake, every act of violence whether committed by him or upon him. I think he is driven alternately and equally by rage, revenge and redemption. He is acutely aware of every busted and put back together again relationship with any of the other bats. And he feels his life was a disaster almost from the day he was born into poverty by his drug dealing father and his addict mother.


The only time I remember Jason being driven by revenge under Lobdell was when he find out the truth about his father. So, I do find it odd thet Lobdell has been mentioning the word "revenge" for the second time recently and I wonder what does this mean for the book (is there going to be another person who Jason would want to take revenge aganist?).

I do agree with the rest and I do think Jason can also find very hard to move on and let go of the past.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I'm curious about how Jason and "Ric" would interact.

I interpreted Lobdell's comment as Jason being more likely to swell on his past than Dick who has been characterized as "live and let live".

----------


## Sergard

> LEGO DC Super Villains Red Hood Boss Battle + Unlock and Free Roam Gameplay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's how to unlock the character


This video made my day. Especially the part where the player drives the Batmobile as Red Hood. I literally heard "Teen Titans" Dick Grayson say in my head: "He lets you drive the Batmobile?"

----------


## G-Potion

Darn second time in a row for Aioros22. And Rise raised a good question.  :Frown:

----------


## KC93

> Why Aioros22 keep getting banned, but someone like yohyoi has been getting a pass despite being insulting toward the creators and the fans? It also sure took long enough for you to do something despite this going for months and there were some members who come here specifically to create troubles (and of course you include this thread despite being very civil).


This is exactly what I was thinking.

----------


## Zaresh

> The only time I remember Jason being driven by revenge under Lobdell was when he find out the truth about his father. So, I do find it odd thet Lobdell has been mentioning the word "revenge" for the second time recently and I wonder what does this mean for the book (is there going to be another person who Jason would want to take revenge aganist?).
> 
> I do agree with the rest and I do think Jason can also find very hard to move on and let go of the past.


Mmm... Maybe not revenge, but a sense of retribution is something Jason holds when he fights, besides the desire of defend others (which is stronger).

----------


## Zaresh

I lost a pair of posters in other thread too. I wonder it they were deleted or they were lost.

----------


## Jackalope89

Roy's got a point.

[IMG]https://em.*************40a3ee513481ff0cd97a654434dd067e68184bac/68747470733a2f2f732d6d656469612d63616368652d616b30  2e70696e696d672e636f6d2f373336782f66322f32622f6465  2f663232626465643464356132373062663938366461663434  65303135313365622e6a7067?s=fit&h=360&w=360&q=80[/IMG]

Jason wants a Robin, not a Demon!

----------


## kaimaciel

Everyone wants to defend their fav to the death and, to be honest, most of the flack I got against Jason was from die-hard Nightwing fans (especially the ones who voted to kill him back in the 80's). I never quite got the anger against Jason now, he's not a threat to Dick and Lobdell hasn't even released his Nightwing chapters yet and people already are sending him hate. 

Dick is awesome, we all know that. I wish he and Jason team-up more and made up for all the brother stuff they never got to do when Jay was Robin.

----------


## magpieM

The comments from that guy are really annoying. He/she particularly likes bashing Jason and RH fans when complaining about Dick's situation or his book. I don't see other Dick's fans sharing the same habit.

I noticed it soon after I came to this forum. But I didn't really pay much attention since it's not very often. BUT now it has changed. Since Lobdell is currently writing Nightwing, we have to endure his/her insults EVERY MONTH, and possibly long time after that whenever he/she thinks that Dick's story is not good enough.

----------


## kaimaciel

So, Jason had his amnesia arc on 2016. Bruce got amnesia in 2017. Dick got amnesia in 2018. Who is it gonna be next year? Tim? Damian? Barbara?

----------


## G-Potion

Not gonna lie. I'm a little displeased that we even get a warning in this thread as if people here purposefully go to Dick's thread to instigate war and not because somebody decides to take their anger out on Jason and we feel the need to speak out and defend. In this thread, we don't even mention the other robins that much. Not enough to invite any conflicts. I can't recall Dick fans being called names. But I do remember myself along with Jason fans being called "teenage edgelords" by a certain somebody.

----------


## KC93

> Not gonna lie. I'm a little displeased that we even get a warning in this thread as if people here purposefully go to Dick's thread to instigate war and not because somebody decides to take their anger out on Jason and we feel the need to speak out and defend. In this thread, we don't even mention the other robins that much. Not enough to invite any conflicts. I can't recall Dick fans being called names. But I do remember myself along with Jason fans being called "teenage edgelords" by a certain somebody.


I remember reading that when I was browsing the forum before I first posted. That poster and 1 or 2 others annoyed me so much I put them on ignore so I don't see what they post.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Not gonna lie. I'm a little displeased that we even get a warning in this thread as if people here purposefully go to Dick's thread to instigate war and not because somebody decides to take their anger out on Jason and we feel the need to speak out and defend. In this thread, we don't even mention the other robins that much. Not enough to invite any conflicts. I can't recall Dick fans being called names. But I do remember myself along with Jason fans being called "teenage edgelords" by a certain somebody.


Gotta agree with you. Why coming *here* to give a warning when no one from this thread is actively trolling everywhere else in the forums? Is in Dick's threads when everyone is going crazy out of frustration and lashing out.

----------


## Jackalope89

Is it wrong that whenever I read Jason's dialogue that I picture him having a Brooklyn accent, kind of like Raphael from TMNT?

----------


## Drako

> Gotta agree with you. Why coming *here* to give a warning when no one from this thread is actively trolling everywhere else in the forums? Is in Dick's threads when everyone is going crazy out of frustration and lashing out.


You guys are pretty cool, but that Aioros 22 guy was trying to bait people for weeks, especially with this Ric Grayson and Lobdell thing.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> Is it wrong that whenever I read Jason's dialogue that I picture him having a Brooklyn accent, kind of like Raphael from TMNT?


nah it's how you hear him.

I tend to hear Merv from The Sandman as Daxter from Jak and daxter and I'm probably the only one that does.

you do you bud.

----------


## Zaresh

> You guys are pretty cool, but that Aioros 22 guy was trying to bait people for weeks, especially with this Ric Grayson and Lobdell thing.


As far as I saw, he only was saying that he was going to support the book because he was interested. That's not bait, that's trying to apport something that doesn't feel full of negativity about some subject. For the sake of apporting some contrast to the discussion.

As far as I saw.

----------


## Zaresh

> nah it's how you hear him.
> 
> I tend to hear Merv from The Sandman as Daxter from Jak and daxter and I'm probably the only one that does.


I heard my 'male adult' voice. No accents, a bit higher than, I don't know, Troy Baker's voice.

----------


## KC93

> You guys are pretty cool, but that Aioros 22 guy was trying to bait people for weeks, especially with this Ric Grayson and Lobdell thing.


The same could be said about yohyoi posting insulting messages about the character Jason and the fans of the character. Yet they don't get a ban.  :Confused:

----------


## G-Potion

> You guys are pretty cool, but that Aioros 22 guy was trying to bait people for weeks, especially with this Ric Grayson and Lobdell thing.


I don't think he meant to bait Dick fans at large. From what I've seen, his posts were in response to specific people who tend to make attacks on Jason and/or Lobdell. Their negativity is frankly a bit too extreme.

----------


## oasis1313

> Everyone wants to defend their fav to the death and, to be honest, most of the flack I got against Jason was from die-hard Nightwing fans (especially the ones who voted to kill him back in the 80's). I never quite got the anger against Jason now, he's not a threat to Dick and Lobdell hasn't even released his Nightwing chapters yet and people already are sending him hate. 
> 
> Dick is awesome, we all know that. I wish he and Jason team-up more and made up for all the brother stuff they never got to do when Jay was Robin.


I would agree; I'd like to see more brother stuff, more family stuff.  I'd like a Batman Family book that was more upbeat and enjoyable, about the whole family being a family.  More people have enough dysfunction in their own lives to go to a comic book and get it heaped on their heads there.  Back in the 80's, I spent quite a chunk of change on that 1-900 number trying to save Jason (it's NEVER okay to kill children in a comic book), and I was thrilled when he was brought back.  Jason never got a decent break until he was brought back.  I buy all the Red Hood merchandise I can get because he's so cool; now he's what I always knew he could be.  Sure, he's got his problems, but we went through too much of a Jason Drought--no more De-Jasoning at DC !!!!!

----------


## G-Potion

Me too. Not sure if I'm on the money here but I have the impression that Jason fans like Dick very much. More stuff for these two brothers would be welcome.

----------


## KC93

> Me too. Not sure if I'm on the money here but I have the impression that Jason fans like Dick very much. More stuff for these two brothers would be welcome.


Jason and Dick are my favourite DC characters so I would love to see them together more  :Big Grin:

----------


## Fergus

> As far as I saw, he only was saying that he was going to support the book because he was interested. That's not bait, that's trying to apport something that doesn't feel full of negativity about some subject. For the sake of apporting some contrast to the discussion.
> 
> *As far as I saw*.


As far as you saw is the important thing. The mods likely saw more than you did.

----------


## G-Potion

Funnily enough I knew you would choose this moment to come here to say something. Anyway, I think most of us have a pretty good ideas what posts Aioros22 was banned for, both times. If you mean the mods likely interpreted them differently than some of us do, yeah sure, that's why we are having this discussion in the first place. But let's not pretend there were some other ban worthy posts that all of us who defend Aioros22 somehow missed.

----------


## Zaresh

Blehg. You know what? Nevermind. I pass.
Let's talk about something else.

It's better than throwing fists forever, and I was starting to get pissed.

Aioros22, we will be waiting for your come back with hugs.

----------


## Sergard

I'm disappointed by the lack of transparency.




> This is directed to both the Dick Grayson and Jason Todd Appreciation threads:
> 
> *Stop going to war with each other.* Don't go into the other thread to take passive-aggressive jabs. Don't attack creators. Don't gatekeep about how you know these characters better than others.


A message like that is confusing - at least for me. I'm regularly reading the Jason Todd thread - and I didn't even know that there was any conflict big enough to be titled "war" (nevermind that a lot of people here also seem to like Dick Grayson).
More information would have been appreciated, especially who was banned for what. Was it only Aioros22 or were there other people too? I've read some more recent pages of the Dick Grayson thread out of interest how fans deal with the current situation in the comic - and the atmosphere was pretty negative to say it bluntly. So where is the line? What is an "okay" comment and what gets you banned?

----------


## Fergus

> Funnily enough I knew you would choose this moment to come here to say something. Anyway, I think most of us have a pretty good ideas what posts Aioros22 was banned for, both times. If you mean the mods likely interpreted them differently than some of us do, yeah sure, that's why we are having this discussion in the first place. But let's not pretend there were some other ban worthy posts that all of us who defend Aioros22 somehow missed.


Are you suggesting the mods play favourites? That's paranoid thinking and you really shouldn't assume things of others. I don't know what posts there have been but i do know that I have seen baiting posts from not Aioros and not just in Dick's thread. What's done's done. Posters can learn from it and move on or they can dwell and play the persecution game.

----------


## Fergus

> I'm disappointed by the lack of transparency.
> 
> 
> 
> A message like that is confusing - at least for me. I'm regularly reading the Jason Todd thread - and I didn't even know that there was any conflict big enough to be titled "war" (nevermind that a lot of people here also seem to like Dick Grayson).
> More information would have been appreciated, especially who was banned for what. Was it only Aioros22 or were there other people too? I've read some more recent pages of the Dick Grayson thread out of interest how fans deal with the current situation in the comic - and the atmosphere was pretty negative to say it bluntly. So where is the line? What is an "okay" comment and what gets you banned?


There's a community guideline page 

https://community.cbr.com/announcement.php?f=2&a=1

----------


## G-Potion

> Are you suggesting the mods play favourites? That's paranoid thinking and you really shouldn't assume things of others. I don't know what posts there have been but i do know that I have seen baiting posts from not Aioros and not just in Dick's thread. What's done's done. Posters can learn from it and move on or they can dwell and play the persecution game.


So you just admitted to not knowing the circumstances that got Aioros22 banned. You assumed that mods must be in the right every time and posters just have to learn from it? And you are telling me that I'm assuming things. For the record, I don't assume that I know what mods are thinking. I saw what happened and it is my opinion that it's unfair to ban him while someone else  got a pass.

----------


## Rise

Good old Fergus.

Why people keep coming here if they don't like Jason or has nothing to say about him? This is a Jason Todd APPRECIATION thread last time I checked, not "let's come here just to argue with his fans" thread.

----------


## Rise

Anyway, Fabok revealed an interesting info about Jason's new costume. He confirmed that the "R" in his costume stand for Red Hood, not Robin like some thought.

----------


## G-Potion

Oh glad to have it confirmed then. Last I checked he said in a comment that it could be either.

----------


## kaimaciel

This is an appreciation thread! Why come to an appreciation thread to complain about the character, writer or the fans? There are rant threads on Reddit for that. 

It's like going to a rival stadium in full costume to insult the opposite team's fans. You don't do that unless you purposely want to cause trouble. To quote Alfred "Some people just wanna see to world burn."

----------


## RedBird

> Anyway, Fabok revealed an interesting info about Jason's new costume. He confirmed that the "R" in his costume stand for Red Hood, not Robin like some thought.


Yeah I saw a few replies from him, though I can't tell if he is being totally serious about the stories brilliance or probably just tooting Johns horn when he was claiming that 'I've never been interested in Jason Todd.....Until this story. Geoffs idea is going to make people a fan of his'.

Jason has a had a pretty crazy career so far, has gone from one end of the heroic spectrum to the next, hero, villian, antihero. What on Earth could Johns have to say or add that could change someones perspective if none of these roads already haven't I wonder? Lol  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Fergus

> So you just admitted to not knowing the circumstances that got Aioros22 banned. You assumed that mods must be in the right every time and posters just have to learn from it? And you are telling me that I'm assuming things. For the record, I don't assume that I know what mods are thinking. I saw what happened and it is my opinion that it's unfair to ban him while someone else  got a pass.


I did not assume anything about you personally. There's the difference. To assume that mods on a forum will be impartial is a lot different to making assumptions about individual members habits.

If you have an issue with unfair treatment why not contact the mods themselves rather than speculating that one of yours is being treated unfairly. As I said in my 1st post on this topic AS FAR AS YOU KNOW. You don't know anyone has been given a pass.

----------


## G-Potion

I find it interesting that he's never liked any of the designs for RH. Personally I like that he goes with the black jacket. But the rest of the getup, eh, let's see how it looks in action.

----------


## G-Potion

> I did not assume anything about you personally. There's the difference. To assume that mods on a forum will be impartial is a lot different to making assumptions about individual members habits.
> 
> If you have an issue with unfair treatment why not contact the mods themselves rather than speculating that one of yours is being treated unfairly. As I said in my 1st post on this topic AS FAR AS YOU KNOW. *You don't know anyone has been given a pass.*


Actually I do. That's what everyone has been talking about.

----------


## RedBird

> I find it interesting that he's never liked any of the designs for RH. Personally I like that he goes with the black jacket. But the rest of the getup, eh, let's see how it looks in action.


I love Faboks art but I found that statement more disconcerting than interesting, the classic RH look is bomb, and J has had plenty of other great looks and variations, does this artist have no sense of style  :Stick Out Tongue: 
(Black jackets are great too though I agree the rest of this outfit is kinda meh)

----------


## G-Potion

> I love Faboks art but I found that statement more disconcerting than interesting, the classic RH look is bomb, and J has had plenty of other great looks and variations, does this artist have no sense of style 
> (Black jackets are great too though I agree the rest of this outfit is kinda meh)


Aha it's interesting because such strong words coming from him, and then he gave us... this.

----------


## Rise

> Yeah I saw a few replies from him, though I can't tell if he is being totally serious about the stories brilliance or probably just tooting Johns horn when he was claiming that 'I've never been interested in Jason Todd.....Until this story. Geoffs idea is going to make people a fan of his'.
> 
> Jason has a had a pretty crazy career so far, has gone from one end of the heroic spectrum to the next, hero, villian, antihero. What on Earth could Johns have to say or add that could change someones perspective if none of these roads already haven't I wonder? Lol


I saw it as him never being interesting in him (like never read anything with him) before started working on him and the story made him a fan of the character. Like how Dexter Soy never know much about Jason before he started working on him and turned him into a fan.

I don't see anything wrong with that and I actually find it interesting how creators end up liking him once they got the chance to have a work with him. I saw a tweet where one of TITANS' (the show) writers said that Jason is a really fun character to write and apparently the actor who is playing Jason has become a fan himself after playing his character (he even bought the first vol of RHATO Rebirth recently).

----------


## RedBird

> I saw it as him never being interesting in him (like never read anything with him) before started working on him and the story made him a fan of the character. Like how Dexter Soy never know much about Jason before he started working on him and turned him into a fan.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with that and I actually find it interesting how creators end up liking him once they got the chance to have a work with him. I saw a tweet where one of TITANS' (the show) writers said that Jason is a really fun character to write and apparently the actor who is playing Jason has become a fan himself after playing his character (he even bought the first vol of RHATO Rebirth recently).


Oh no I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with Fabok only coming around to the character recently, was just curious as to what Johns had scripted to make him change his perspective.

But you may be right, in that this was probably just the first time Fabok has ever had to create and work on something this focused on Jason and simply now had the opportunity to appreciate the character in his own way.

----------


## G-Potion

Nice tibits about Titans writer and the actor.  :Smile:

----------


## byrd156

> Good old Fergus.
> 
> Why people keep coming here if they don't like Jason or has nothing to say about him? This is a Jason Todd APPRECIATION thread last time I checked, not "let's come here just to argue with his fans" thread.


There are different ways to appreciate something. I personally enjoy Jason as more of a villain or foil and I talk about the issues I have with his direction since the reboot and relationships with the Bat-family. That's not overly negative and yet it gets a rise out of people because they take criticism as an attack on a character they love, it's not it's just me liking a previous version. I don't generally come in here because anytime I talk about it I get challenged and 5 or 6 pages get added to the thread because of it.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I have a lot of issues with Dick's current direction, talking about negatives or differing opinions makes for better discussion. Or I think so at least.

----------


## Rise

> Oh no I didn't mean to imply there was anything wrong with Fabok only coming around to the character recently, was just curious as to what Johns had scripted to make him change his perspective.
> 
> But you may be right, in that this was probably just the first time Fabok has ever had to create and work on something this focused on Jason and simply now had the opportunity to appreciate the character in his own way.


I myself curious about Johns' take on Jason. I have enjoyed his work on some of my favourite charaters and I hope he doesn't disappoint with Jason.

----------


## Sergard

> There are different ways to appreciate something. I personally enjoy Jason as more of a villain or foil and I talk about the issues I have with his direction since the reboot and relationships with the Bat-family. That's not overly negative and yet it gets a rise out of people because they take criticism as an attack on a character they love, it's not it's just me liking a previous version. I don't generally come in here because anytime I talk about it I get challenged and 5 or 6 pages get added to the thread because of it. 
> 
> I have a lot of issues with Dick's current direction, talking about negatives or differing opinions makes for better discussion. Or I think so at least.


Sorry byrd, but sometimes I have the feeling that you can be a very annoying fellow who actively aims at "getting a rise out of people". So far I'm still waiting to see a comment by you about Jason that makes me believe that you really like the character (in your preferred incarnation). So far I'd rather guess that you want Jason as a villain so that another character - Dick Grayson, who is obviously more beloved by you, can "shine brighter" and has his own "Joker". Just liking a character for the sake of another character is not liking the first character at all. In this thread you basically wrote months ago that you like old Jason because he stood by his own moral code, being his own man, yada, yada, but in other threads I've seen comments by you declaring the same Jason a crazy psychopath. How does this fit together?

----------


## G-Potion

> There are different ways to appreciate something. I personally enjoy Jason as more of a villain or foil and I talk about the issues I have with his direction since the reboot and relationships with the Bat-family. That's not overly negative and yet it gets a rise out of people because they take criticism as an attack on a character they love, it's not it's just me liking a previous version. I don't generally come in here because anytime I talk about it I get challenged and 5 or 6 pages get added to the thread because of it. 
> 
> I have a lot of issues with Dick's current direction, talking about negatives or differing opinions makes for better discussion. Or I think so at least.


I don't think what you have to say about Dick, even when you are not happy with the direction, is remotely the same as you do Jason. I can't know 100% what you feel, but from your various posts, the impression I got is that you only like Jason when he acts as a villain, particularly a villain for Dick's, because he's the one you actually care about. A foil, you said. It's never about Jason himself. You have no problem that it goes against Jason's core character. As Robin, as Jason in Lost Days, as UTRH, he was never a bad guy. Other times you also express that killing Jason (a child at the time) served a purpose and that justified the dirty poll. Forgive me but I'd be surprised if that doesn't rankle every Jason fan.

Edit: Sergard ninja'd me.

----------


## Sergard

> Yeah I saw a few replies from him, though I can't tell if he is being totally serious about the stories brilliance or probably just tooting Johns horn when he was claiming that 'I've never been interested in Jason Todd.....Until this story. Geoffs idea is going to make people a fan of his'.
> 
> Jason has a had a pretty crazy career so far, has gone from one end of the heroic spectrum to the next, hero, villian, antihero. What on Earth could Johns have to say or add that could change someones perspective if none of these roads already haven't I wonder? Lol


I also wonder what that "idea" will be. But Jason Fabok's art alone is reason enough for me to buy the comic. Look at the hair. It's THERE.  :Big Grin: 
It's kinda hilarious that Jason, Dick and Slade get a buzzcut almost at the same time. Is this some DC insider joke? When did the joke start? With Batwoman after shooting Clayface? James Gordon as Batman? Gotham Girl? Arkham Knight Tim Drake? Batman #666 Damian Wayne?

And who will be next? Barbara Gordon? (Barbara always seems to have the same hairstyle. In the meantime Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake have had a lot of styles through the years.)

----------


## Jackalope89

> I also wonder what that "idea" will be. But Jason Fabok's art alone is reason enough for me to buy the comic. Look at the hair. It's THERE. 
> It's kinda hilarious that Jason, Dick and Slade get a buzzcut almost at the same time. Is this some DC insider joke? When did the joke start? With Batwoman after shooting Clayface? James Gordon as Batman? Gotham Girl? Arkham Knight Tim Drake? Batman #666 Damian Wayne?
> 
> And who will be next? Barbara Gordon? (Barbara always seems to have the same hairstyle. In the meantime Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Tim Drake have had a lot of styles through the years.)


Starfire got nearly a buzzcut in the Elseworlds comic a little while ago.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Link to Fabok's comments?

There's nothing on his Twitter, Instagram or FB accounts.

----------


## Zaresh

> Aha it's interesting because such strong words coming from him, and then he gave us... this.


At least we will have some nice leg artwork to see. And probably a perfectly beautifully drawn masculine face with perfectly defined jaw and high cheekbones. I hope he draws fleckles too, for the sake of putting some colourful detail that makes him stand a bit from other manly brawny heroes. And no cleft chin; give that trait to Tim, it makes for some cute contrast with his usually soft-y childish features.

I'm such a weirdo sometimes. This is me trying to picture how they could give each Robin some more subtle facial features. Without no one asking. Welp...

Back to the design, I like the jacket. I don't like how it clashes with the rest, but I like the jacket. If he were to wear the costume without it, I guess I would like... if he were by other name. The upper half is good: I like the vest-like tunic-like upper half. But it just doesn't go with those boots. It feels like a ninja-oriented costume, for some tactical stealth mission, to be honest.

Edit: Oh, the hair, too. It's there indeed! I like that too, as much as I like him with bangs too.

What were those titbits from the Titans series, *@G-Pots*?

----------


## G-Potion

Oh, I was just happy with what Rise said about Titans writer and the Jason actor liking the character. Sorry I worded it vaguely.

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh, I was just happy with what Rise said about Titans writer and the Jason actor liking the character. Sorry I worded it vaguely.


Nah, it was my fault for not reading right the post in its context :_D. I did a "Portal", as my friends often point when I connect two imposible to connect points and make up my own story just because I didn't get the original intent of some text.

Speaking of Titans, I liked the first episode. It gave me hopes for the writing of the characters. Maybe they will feel a bit OoC for some fans for a little while, but you can feel that the writers have a clear intent of making them grow out of their flaws and problems. That's good.

----------


## G-Potion

> Speaking of Titans, I liked the first episode. It gave me hopes for the writing of the characters. Maybe they will feel a bit OoC for some fans for a little while, but you can feel that the writers have a clear intent of making them grow out of their flaws and problems. That's good.


That's good to hear. I get the feeling from interviews, but still good to hear it rings true in the real thing. I'm gonna watch from Netflix so it will be a while yet.

----------


## G-Potion

http://wide-eyed-dreamers.lofter.com/

----------


## Sergard

Was Jason Todd with freckles ever canon or is this purely fandom?
Because I regularly see fanfics popping up that give Jason freckles.
I know that fandom sometimes uses one-time details, like Dick calling Jason "Little Wing" or Artemis and "Little One". Or Jason liking bread (the source of that "preference" is rather sad). Or collecting books (Was that even Jason or was that Alfred and Bruce?).

----------


## thebluefeline

> Was Jason Todd with freckles ever canon or is this purely fandom?
> Because I regularly see fanfics popping up that give Jason freckles.
> I know that fandom sometimes uses one-time details, like Dick calling Jason "Little Wing" or Artemis and "Little One". Or Jason liking bread (the source of that "preference" is rather sad). Or collecting books (Was that even Jason or was that Alfred and Bruce?).


I think the collecting first edition books was established in the UtRH comic when Alfred mentions that him Bruce and Jason used to like reading a lot.

----------


## byrd156

> Sorry byrd, but sometimes I have the feeling that you can be a very annoying fellow who actively aims at "getting a rise out of people". So far I'm still waiting to see a comment by you about Jason that makes me believe that you really like the character (in your preferred incarnation). So far I'd rather guess that you want Jason as a villain so that another character - Dick Grayson, who is obviously more beloved by you, can "shine brighter" and has his own "Joker". Just liking a character for the sake of another character is not liking the first character at all. In this thread you basically wrote months ago that you like old Jason because he stood by his own moral code, being his own man, yada, yada, but in other threads I've seen comments by you declaring the same Jason a crazy psychopath. How does this fit together?


Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?

I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories. 

Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.

As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back. This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me. Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.) 

But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.

----------


## Zaresh

> Was Jason Todd with freckles ever canon or is this purely fandom?
> Because I regularly see fanfics popping up that give Jason freckles.
> I know that fandom sometimes uses one-time details, like Dick calling Jason "Little Wing" or Artemis and "Little One". Or Jason liking bread (the source of that "preference" is rather sad). Or collecting books (Was that even Jason or was that Alfred and Bruce?).


I fast looked at old stuff and I would say that no, he didn't have fleckles, not as a strawberry blond, neither as a black haired kid. But to be fair, it probably was hard at the time, giving him such detail in the drawing for printing-process related issues. I looked a bit at The Cult too, which has more detailed art, and he didn't have them in there either. But the feature has to come from somewhere, and I doubt it comes from him being a redhead at some point. Not every redhead has freckles, nor all people with freckles has fair hair (my father, for example, has freckles and he had very black hair. Ok, I admit he did have some thin red streaks, but rarely; but he had such a wonderful black hair when he was young. Hair is weird).

I think the reading stuff is actually from his time as Robin (the liking for reading, not the first edition thing). But probably as a way to show he was a smart kid, which is a common Robin trait. They all are smart.

(Damn, Jason is such a badass in The Cult. I need to buy this in proper paper)

----------


## Rise

I'm pretty sure the "freckles" is fanon. 

Jason liking books is canon and was seen in comics both when he was Robin and now as Red Hood.

Where did him liking bread come from, though?

----------


## Rise

> (Damn, Jason is such a badass in The Cult. I need to buy this in proper paper)


It was one of his finest moments as Robin.

One of my favourite moments was when he slapped Batman to make him chill and this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm pretty sure the "freckles" is fanon. 
> 
> Jason liking books is canon and was seen in comics both when he was Robin and now as Red Hood.
> 
> Where did him liking bread come from, though?


Freckles are indeed fanon, as it is the thing with the bread. That comes from the Annual telling how he came back from the dead, where at some point he's acting out of instinct in Gotham's slums and breaks in a bakery to steal some loaves of bread.

----------


## Pohzee

> Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?
> 
> I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories. 
> 
> Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.
> 
> As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back. This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me. Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.) 
> 
> But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.


I agree with you very much on all points.

I personally think that it is fine to appreciate Jason as a supporting aspect to other characters and the general Batmythos. I personally appreciate what Jason's death and what it meant to the Batfamily. I also appreciated his return as someone who represented a failing of Batman's morals. I prefer him to have an antagonistic relationship with the Batfamily. I think that it is a more interesting direction both for him an the other characters involved.

Does this mean that I don't appreciate him? No. I appreciate a different version of Jason Todd and that's perfectly acceptable. Even if you believe that this opinion is on the built on the basis of making Jason a plot device to other characters, that doesn't mean that its not appreciation. There are appreciation threads for the Penguin and Kite-Man on here and I am certain that nobody sees them the same way that anybody here views a character like Dick Grayson for example.

There are different levels and different kinds of appreciation. But they are all valid.

----------


## Rise

> Freckles are indeed fanon, as it is the thing with the bread. That comes from the Annual telling how he came back from the dead, *where at some point he's acting out of instinct in Gotham's slums and breaks in a bakery to steal some loaves of bread*.


Oh, and they decided he likes bread from that? Remind me when some fans thought that Jason has a cruch on Kyle just because he _sarcastically_ called him dreamy. It's amazing how things you think are obvious apparently aren't to some people.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?
> 
> I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories. 
> 
> Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.
> 
> As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back. This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me. Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.) 
> 
> But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.


You know, is hard to take your opinion seriously when *seemingly* you haven't actually followed Jason's publication over the past seven years where most of the criticisms you have were adressed. 

As for Bruce being an hypocrite if he accepts Jason back, well the current Bruce who has teamed up with nearly everyone in his rogue gallery at point or another (including the freaking Joker) through those very same seven years, he would be more of an hypocrite by not accepting Jason who hasn't done anything near as bad as some of those partners.

----------


## Zaresh

> It was one of his finest moments as Robin.
> 
> One of my favourite moments was when he slapped Batman to make him chill and this.


He's pretty brave, assertive and caring, most of the time leading Bruce (stressed Bruce, anxious Bruce, damaged Bruce: Bruce in a bad place), all across the whole story until almost the end. It's awesome. You rarely see a sidekick doing that.

Just after that page he calls Bruce for if he's going to help him fight. In such a Jason way... You could really connect that Jason and our current one.

----------


## Rise

It's hard to take any of them seriously when one of them who pretend to like Jason said they wish for him to die by having his head explode. So please, let's just ignore these posts and not get into pointless argument with them. 

And just let me say this to anyone who vist this thread, no one say that you should like Jason and it's ok if you don't. Being bitter that people like and enjoy something you don't and try to drail this thread by getting into pointless argument with people here isn't ok. I'm pretty sure most of us here are above 18 so let's act like mature adults please.

----------


## Rise

Apparently, Jensen (Ackles) with the help of a friend of his is working on a Red Hood costume for on set shenanigans.




It's nice how Jensen is still fond of him after all these years.

----------


## G-Potion

> Apparently, Jensen (Ackles) with the help of a friend of his is working on a Red Hood costume for on set shenanigans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's nice how Jensen is still fond of him after all these years.


Halloween costume. Guess it won't be long until we see more of it. It does feel nice yes, yes.

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Uncle Jay is gonna be such a bad influence on her.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> It's hard to take any of them seriously when one of them who pretend to like Jason said they wish for him to die by having his head explode. So please, let's just ignore these posts and not get into pointless argument with them. 
> 
> And just let me say this to anyone who vist this thread, no one say that you should like Jason and it's ok if you don't. Being bitter that people like and enjoy something you don't and try to drail this thread by getting into pointless argument with people here isn't ok. I'm pretty sure most of us here are above 18 so let's act like mature adults please.


I make frequent use of the ignore button because it's always the usual suspects. Makes being in an APPRECIATION thread easier.

----------


## Celgress

> Ah, Uncle Jay is gonna be such a bad influence on her.


Indeed he shall be lol.

----------


## G-Potion

'I like you when you are dead.' I tried to say it appreciatively. I can't. Move on.

----------


## magpieM

> Is it wrong that whenever I read Jason's dialogue that I picture him having a Brooklyn accent, kind of like Raphael from TMNT?


I think Jason might have accent before being adopted, partially because of the street life and partially obtained from his father's accent. But later on it gradually disappeared since he mainly spoke with Bruce and Alfred.

For adult Jason, I still imagine him speaking in Jensen Ackles' voice. But it's OK for me if he gets some accent back.

----------


## Aahz

At least according to Morrison he has an accent.

----------


## Sergard

> Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?


I'm pretty sure that you have already stated your opinion a few times in this thread. Always leading to the same discussion. So yes, if you only redundantly repeat yourself again and again, no one is gaining anything from it, except you by getting a rise out of other people. So do what everyone else here would do in another thread if they have said everything they wanted to say: "keep quiet and go away". Come back if you have something new to add. And don't start to play victim by saying you are "in the minority". Everyone here has different opinions. Some are okay with Jason killing, others say he should not, or if it's okay to which degree. Should he be part of the bat family like the other Robins, should he be the black sheep, or should he have his own family, etc.




> I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories.


Nothing to add about the history before A Death in the Family. There were some good stories, yes. Death in the Family itself was rather ... not so well written. (And by that I don't mean the ending.)




> Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.


I don't understand what you're getting at. Jason died - all potential that was gained from his death was used and by resurrecting him and writing UTH a twist was given that lead to new potential. Jason earned his spot by being "around for 5 years". And yes, he's just "another member", the same as Dick, Tim, Damian, Duke and Co. And a lot of Jason fans came around after his resurrection, because of the UTH comic, or the animated movie, or the Arkham Knight game, etc.  And these fans - and all other fans of the character - will clearly disagree with you and your opinion that Jason "should've stayed dead", the same goes for other revived characters like Barry, Green Arrow, Superman, Wally West, etc.. I'd like to see your response when one of your favorite characters dies and DC decides to let the character stay dead because "consequences and important historical moments" should always stick forever. Nevermind that "forever" doesn't work in a concept like the DC universe. People want for example to read Bruce Wayne's Batman in 10 years, in 20 years and probably even in 100 years. So there will be always changes in continuity. Things will be undone and new "circumstances and important historical moments" will be created that will last for the next 10, 20 years or so. And nevermind that Bruce' whole Don't Kill Rule only exists because DC decided to undo all of Bruce' murdering from pre-crisis.




> As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back.


You do realize that Jason was an anti-hero in UTH? He was the antagonist but he wasn't a villain. His motives were clearly that of an anti-hero. And he was already running around shooting people and making jokes back in UTH. And he didn't try to kill Bruce in UTH. And the other batfam folks wasn't even around in the comic. So who are the characters "he has only ever tried to kill"? Because everything after UTH does not seem to be canon anymore. Nevermind that Bruce is stating near the end of UTH - after Jason has killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss - that he is still trying to save Jason.




> This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me.


It doesn't make them hypocritical idiots. It makes them father and son. Parents' love should be unconditional. And if there are problems then these problems should be worked on, even if this means trying forever without any hope of ever "winning" because that's not the point of being a family.




> Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.) 
> 
> But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.


As already mentioned, Jason was an anti-hero in UTH. Being a villain means doing evil stuff and hurting/killing innocent people/civilians. And that does not sound like Jason at all. But since you are basing your whole argumentation on the UTH comic the anti-hero/villain stuff only seems to be semantics. So again: What do you want to tell me? Yes, Deathstroke has  a praised run. But so has Jason since the start of Rebirth. And since the start of Rebirth - and even before that - he is "running around doing his own thing". And if you have read that run you'll know that Jason and Bruce where never lovey-dovey in RHatO like the whole Joker stuff and Co. didn't happen. And even by sticking to Bruce' one rule not to kill, Jason was never shackled to him. There are other means than killing as the first Rebirth arc has shown. And it's a shame that the comic didn't delve more deeply into that topic.

The only thing that would shackle Jason to Bruce would be to make him a "reverse Batman" because than Jason isn't more than a "negative image" of Bruce that is defined by doing the opposite of the original image. (And by the way, there is already a villain with that property.)

----------


## byrd156

> You know, is hard to take your opinion seriously when *seemingly* you haven't actually followed Jason's publication over the past seven years where most of the criticisms you have were adressed. 
> 
> As for Bruce being an hypocrite if he accepts Jason back, well the current Bruce who has teamed up with nearly everyone in his rogue gallery at point or another (including the freaking Joker) through those very same seven years, he would be more of an hypocrite by not accepting Jason who hasn't done anything near as bad as some of those partners.


Those are one off or certain scenarios used for a specific plot line. We don't see Joker and Batman hanging out in the Batcave and working as a regular dynamic duo. Those are two very different things.

I haven't read every single issue that Jason has appeared in since the reboot, hell I haven't read every issue Dick or Kyle or other characters that I love have appeared in. Was in college and on a budget for the last 2 years so I didn't get to read everything plus I just moved again and need to find a new comic shop. I read the first 15 or so issues of RHatO as they were published, I would catch an occasional issue after that. Read a bit of when he joined Bizzaro and Artemis and didn't really care for it. I've read most of his publication history prior to the reboot, every time I check back in I don't really care for it version. So far I like the newest direction alright.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm pretty sure that you have already stated your opinion a few times in this thread. Always leading to the same discussion. So yes, if you only redundantly repeat yourself again and again, no one is gaining anything from it, except you by getting a rise out of other people. So do what everyone else here would do in another thread if they have said everything they wanted to say: "keep quiet and go away". Come back if you have something new to add. And don't start to play victim by saying you are "in the minority". Everyone here has different opinions. Some are okay with Jason killing, others say he should not, or if it's okay to which degree. Should he be part of the bat family like the other Robins, should he be the black sheep, or should he have his own family, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing to add about the history before A Death in the Family. There were some good stories, yes. Death in the Family itself was rather ... not so well written. (And by that I don't mean the ending.)
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you're getting at. Jason died - all potential that was gained from his death was used and by resurrecting him and writing UTH a twist was given that lead to new potential. Jason earned his spot by being "around for 5 years". And yes, he's just "another member", the same as Dick, Tim, Damian, Duke and Co. And a lot of Jason fans came around after his resurrection, because of the UTH comic, or the animated movie, or the Arkham Knight game, etc.  And these fans - and all other fans of the character - will clearly disagree with you and your opinion that Jason "should've stayed dead", the same goes for other revived characters like Barry, Green Arrow, Superman, Wally West, etc.. I'd like to see your response when one of your favorite characters dies and DC decides to let the character stay dead because "consequences and important historical moments" should always stick forever. Nevermind that "forever" doesn't work in a concept like the DC universe. People want for example to read Bruce Wayne's Batman in 10 years, in 20 years and probably even in 100 years. So there will be always changes in continuity. Things will be undone and new "circumstances and important historical moments" will be created that will last for the next 10, 20 years or so. And nevermind that Bruce' whole Don't Kill Rule only exists because DC decided to undo all of Bruce' murdering from pre-crisis.
> ...


I am in the minority when it comes to this thread and that's fine. Minority just means a smaller number or group I'm not playing victim, these are just opinions about comic characters. I'm not trying to tear down you guys or Jason. These are my personal opinions from the stories and experiences from my time with the character. It's not like what I say will affect you guys or the character. That's all well and good, this was kinda my point when I initially posted in here. I just came in to say different people have different ways to appreciate something and it turns into me readdressing my opinion, that opinion is wrong and people make offhanded remarks about ignore buttons and not being taken seriously like I'm just coming in trying to start something, it just becomes whole thing of me being a hater or being talked down to. I'm just gonna leave part of my initial post below.

That's not overly negative and yet it gets a rise out of people because they take criticism as an attack on a character they love, it's not it's just me liking a previous version. I don't generally come in here because anytime I talk about it I get challenged and 5 or 6 pages get added to the thread because of it.

----------


## Jackalope89

Well, this is one way to find out where Jay is...

[IMG]https://d.*************story_parts/453988381/images/14e09f59022164be237467157586.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## Zaresh

So definitively, Woods is going to go for the hardboiled noir pulp aesthetics. With lots of action too. I'm the happiest person of the week  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...003715584?s=19

----------


## Sergard

Source

----------


## Sergard



----------


## Sergard

_In the name of the…whatever, I will punish you!_

----------


## G-Potion

> So definitively, Woods is going to go for the hardboiled noir pulp aesthetics. With lots of action too. I'm the happiest person of the week  
> 
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...003715584?s=19


Aaa I'm thrilled too. Thanks for reaching out to Woods!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

Is this Sailor Moon thing a meme that flew under my radar somehow? It's hilarious, but I don't get it. I mean, I know the one with Moon Knight, but... Jason? I don't get it xD

JJMK has lost it definitively :_D




> Aaa I'm thrilled too. Thanks for reaching out to Woods!


It was unintentional :___D (or at least I didn't expect that answer). I saw him talking about what he would like to work about, and it sounded so pulpy, I just wondered... And there he delivered!

----------


## G-Potion

> _n the name of the…whatever, I will punish you!_


JASON NO. 

(2chars)

----------


## Zaresh

> JASON NO. 
> 
> (2chars)


You know, we have so many Robins now we could actually try a Sailor Scout team.

----------


## Sergard

> Is this Sailor Moon thing a meme that flew under my radar somehow? It's hilarious, but I don't get it. I mean, I know the one with Moon Knight, but... Jason? I don't get it xD


Who knows where JJMK got that idea from. Maybe from the Tim Drake fanart that shows Tim Drake transforming like a Magical Girl (and in the end it's revealed that Jason drew everything xD). I think the fanart was posted here (or in the Tim Drake thread), but I can't find it at the moment.

I love how the first panel is Jason's pose from the last page of RHatO #26.

----------


## Zaresh

> Who knows where JJMK got that idea from. Maybe from the Tim Drake fanart that shows Tim Drake transforming like a Magical Girl (and in the end it's revealed that Jason drew everything xD). I think the fanart was posted here (or in the Tim Drake thread), but I can't find it at the moment.
> 
> I love how the first panel is Jason's pose from the last page of RHatO #26.


Oh, could be. It's just too funny and bizarre I can see it being the case.

The ways creativity works for people who are actually funny are mysterious (for me).

----------


## Jackalope89

Okay, that was funny. And imagining him saying that with a deep, gruff bowery accent makes it all the better!

Anyways, back to basics for Jason, sort of...

----------


## RedBird

lindatart



_Jason and some big bois_

----------


## G-Potion

> Okay, that was funny. And imagining him saying that with a deep, gruff bowery accent makes it all the better!
> 
> Anyways, back to basics for Jason, sort of...


NO JASON.
(2chars)

(All these horrifyingly awesome Jason arts on a roll)  :Big Grin: 

(And I love it when Damian is drawn with shark teeth. Such a ball of terror.)

----------


## G-Potion

> lindatart
> 
> 
> 
> _Jason and some big bois_


Awww when will Lobdell get Jason a new dog. (I'm okay with penguin too)

----------


## G-Potion

I saw this in several appreciation threads. Figure this would be a good time to put it here as well. And hey, you can actually keep negative comments about the characters to yourself.

*DC Forum Appreciation Thread rules:*

1) No negative comments about the honoree(s) of this thread. It's an appreciation thread, not a non-appreciation one. 

2) No negative discussion about any competitors of the honoree(s) of this thread. No ifs, ands, or buts. Find another non-appreciation thread to do that, just not here.

3) No negative comments about other versions of the character. For example, if you like the DCU version of Cyborg, but hate the DCnU version (or visa versa), just appreciate the earlier version and keep your comments about the latter to yourself.

----------


## Jackalope89

Don't think now's the time to look at CDs Jay...

----------


## oasis1313

> Awww when will Lobdell get Jason a new dog. (I'm okay with penguin too)


This is adorable!  They could call it Fang the Red Hound.

----------


## Sergard

I wonder what happened to Sparky. Knowing the environment Jason grew up in, I don't think that poor little dog had a long happy life that ended by dying peacefully of old age.




> Don't think now's the time to look at CDs Jay...


Where is this from?

My favorite "music" scene with Jason is from Batman #412 when he listens to a Heavy Metal version of "Sound of Silence" after he and Batman defeated a mime. The issue even states that Jason hates mimes.
Batman does not seem so thrilled by the music.

batman #412 jason todd heavy metal.jpg

----------


## Aahz

> Where is this from?


Batman and Robin Eternal#3.

----------


## Zaresh

Let's do something slightly different. Let's talk about music.

I was dealing with some personal stuff and decided to open my Spotify and hear some music. I usually are more like a grunge person, but I wasn't on the right mood for it. So I decided to put some album I dearly love and is more energetic (maybe because I saw someone else hearing it today in other place too. Maybe not), and I was throughout the second track, thinking about selecting some of them for the playlist for my fanfic, when I just though; I think this is some rather fitting music for Jason. Not as much as him hearing it, but as the music being right for him as a character soundtrack.

https://open.spotify.com/album/0Fk4l...TVavQbklWvHUhA (Alter Bridge - Blackbird)

What do you people think would fit him as a character? Both ways: as his taste and as his own meta-soundtrack.

----------


## Jackalope89

I find Back in Black by AC/DC rather suitable for Jason.

----------


## Arsenal

Man Down  and Immortal
I think this fits Jason pretty well tbh

----------


## kaimaciel

Narcissist Cannibal, the lyrics really fit Jason and Bruce's relationship.

----------


## Aahz

Based on his original origin, he was into Poison Idea.

----------


## Sergard

> What do you people think would fit him as a character? Both ways: as his taste and as his own meta-soundtrack.


I imagine that his taste is somewhere between Alternative Rock and Heavy Metal.
My meta-soundtrack for Jason is actually "Alive" by Sia.
And I have to think of Jason when I listen to "The Phoenix" by Fall Out Boy. But that's less because of the lyrics and has more to do with the title. I once read a discussion on tumblr about a new vigilante name for Jason in the theoretically case that he ditches the Red Hood mantle. And "Phoenix" was one of the discussed options. And that somehow stuck in my head.

----------


## Jackalope89

Ooh, here's a good one. My Way by Frank Sinatra.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is anyone here picking up the RHATO Omnibus?

----------


## Zaresh

> Is anyone here picking up the RHATO Omnibus?


Not me. I cannot even buy the trades right now. I have had to put my purchases on hold. But I saw it: I hope it sells good.

----------


## Sergard

I already own the trades of RHatO (New52), and of Red Hood/Arsenal. The omnibus does not contain any new chapters or artworks, or?
I rather save my money for current (variant) issues of RHatO and other titles Jason appears in.
Although I have to admit that the Deathstroke New52 omnibus looks appealing. (And I still hope that there'll be a Red Lanterns Omnibus.)

----------


## Jackalope89

> I already own the trades of RHatO (New52), and of Red Hood/Arsenal. The omnibus does not contain any new chapters or artworks, or?
> I rather save my money for current (variant) issues of RHatO and other titles Jason appears in.
> Although I have to admit that the Deathstroke New52 omnibus looks appealing. (And I still hope that there'll be a Red Lanterns Omnibus.)


Outside of select Batman issues, and one of Teen Titans, I don't think Jason has been in much besides his own series.

----------


## Aahz

> Outside of select Batman issues, and one of Teen Titans, I don't think Jason has been in much besides his own series.


He has been in quite lot of Batman Stories (even if most of them are not that great).

And there are also some else world stories with versions of Jason, and his original run as Robin is now also availabilities in trades.

----------


## Jackalope89

> He has been in quite lot of Batman Stories (even if most of them are not that great).
> 
> And there are also some else world stories with versions of Jason, and his original run as Robin is now also availabilities in trades.


I meant recently...

----------


## RedBird

> He has been in quite lot of Batman Stories (even if most of them are not that great).
> 
> And there are also some else world stories with versions of Jason, and his original run as Robin is now also availabilities in trades.


Woah really? Is there a new collection for Jasons Robin days?

----------


## Jackalope89

Never make Uncle Jay mad...

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason is not in the mood, Dick.

----------


## Aahz

> Woah really? Is there a new collection for Jasons Robin days?


 Not really a collection about Jason but they have now TPBs that cover the era:
- *Batman Second Chances* and *Batman: The Caped Crusader Vol. 1* cover all his whole post crisis appaerencess in "Batman" appart from DITF and One Annual
- *Batman: The Dark Knight Detective Vol. 1* seems to cover his appearences in TEC (I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, and the info what is in the book is a little contradictory).
- with *DITF* and *the Cult* on top you cover everything appart from his few appearances outside of the Batman books

----------


## RedBird

Team Red

----------


## RedBird

> Link to Fabok's comments?
> 
> There's nothing on his Twitter, Instagram or FB accounts.


Yo, sorry this is WAY late, only saw this post now.
I got the comment from this tumblr post that collected a bunch of responses from him.

source

----------


## G-Potion

> Team Red


I miss Soy. And this team. And Jason using the All-Blades. Like, a lot.

----------


## Zaresh

> I miss Soy. And this team. And Jason using the All-Blades. Like, a lot.


Al least, we know he will keep posting fanarts of the team :/

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason- A chance to beat up Golden Boy, _without_ getting in trouble? Hell yeah!

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yo, sorry this is WAY late, only saw this post now.
> I got the comment from this tumblr post that collected a bunch of responses from him.
> 
> source


Interesting, thanks.

Worth noting he doesn't really confirm what the R means, he just says he thought of Red Hood.

----------


## Sergard

> Not really a collection about Jason but they have now TPBs that cover the era:
> - *Batman Second Chances* and *Batman: The Caped Crusader Vol. 1* cover all his whole post crisis appaerencess in "Batman" appart from DITF and One Annual
> - *Batman: The Dark Knight Detective Vol. 1* seems to cover his appearences in TEC (I'm still waiting for my copy to arrive, and the info what is in the book is a little contradictory).
> - with *DITF* and *the Cult* on top you cover everything appart from his few appearances outside of the Batman books


Nice. I didn't know about Batman: The Dark Knight Detective. Another title for my to-buy-list. So Detective Comics #568-574 and #579-582 is the complete post-crisis Robin Jason run?

----------


## Rise

> Team Red


Soy never fail to deliver.

----------


## Aahz

> Nice. I didn't know about Batman: The Dark Knight Detective. Another title for my to-buy-list. So Detective Comics #568-574 and #579-582 is the complete post-crisis Robin Jason run?


Pretty much, #567 was offically the first issue in the post crisis continuity, but without Jason appearing.  #575-578 in *Batman: Year Two*, a flash back story set even before Bruce met Dick, and after #582 Jason stopped appearing in TEC, even if that was just around the beginning of Starlin's Run.

----------


## Sergard

I love Soy's art. If he ever comes back to RHatO I would wish for a story arc about the outlaws going to Japan and fighting an evil warlord spirit.

There was some Japanese inspired story in Batman #413 (post-crisis Robin Jason era).



Look how cute Jason is in this story, being all happy in a museum doing some extra credit for history class and looking at British dresses from the 18th/19th century. (By the way, Jane Austen lived around that time, and her stories, like Pride and Prejudice, take place during this time too.)



The issue shows some interesting weapons that I could see adult Jason use. (Robin Jason throws a shuriken at some point too.)

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Konja7

One question, how old is Jason? I don't remember if this was hinted at some point. 

I mean Dick is 21 and Tim is 16, so Jason should be in the middle (19?)

----------


## Aahz

> One question, how old is Jason? I don't remember if this was hinted at some point. 
> 
> I mean Dick is 21 and Tim is 16, so Jason should be in the middle (19?)


Post flashpoint his age was never clearly given. It is also not really clear if Dick is post rebirth still 21 or rougly back to his pre flashpoint age (back than he 26 or 27).

Based on the pre flashpoint comics Jason should be 6-8 years younger than Dick and a month younger and two years older than Tim (and roughly the same age as Cass).

And Tim was originally 8 years younger than Dick (but that gap grew to 9-10 years by the end of the continuity).

----------


## Konja7

> Post flashpoint his age was never clearly given. It is also not really clear if Dick is post rebirth still 21 or rougly back to his pre flashpoint age (back than he 26 or 27).
> 
> Based on the pre flashpoint comics Jason should be 6-8 years younger than Dick and a month younger and two years older than Tim (and roughly the same age as Cass).
> 
> And Tim was originally 8 years younger than Dick (but that gap grew to 9-10 years by the end of the continuity).


Thank you for the answer 

Dick is probably still 21. So far, Rebirth had changed origins and stories, but their ages are still the same as Flashpoint.

In theory, the characters have some "lost years" (which are somewhat similar to Pre-Flashpoint continuity, but not equal). However, at most, they have recover some memories of those times, not their ages.


Regarding the age of Jason, I guess it will be difficult to know his age, especially with so many changes in continuity. 19 or 20 can be right.

----------


## Aahz

> Dick is probably still 21. So far, Rebirth had changed origins and stories, but their ages are still the same as Flashpoint.


It was iirc said in one issue of Nightwing that Dick is in his mid 20s. And Damian was aged up to 13 in Rebirth.




> Regarding the age of Jason, I guess it will be difficult to know his age, especially with so many changes in continuity. 19 or 20 can be right.


I still think I doesn't really make sense for Jason to be older than 18 if Tim is just 16.

----------


## Konja7

> It was iirc said in one issue of Nightwing that Dick is in his mid 20s. And Damian was aged up to 13 in Rebirth.
> 
> I still think I doesn't really make sense for Jason to be older than 18 if Tim is just 16.


I don't remember that it was said thar Dick is in his mid 20s, but maybe I am wrong. There are so many changes. 

To be fair, the case of Damian is that he turned 13. It doesn't really make sense Damian to be 13 if Tim is just 16. That's the strange situation we are with the Batfamily. 

So, I wouldn't be surprised that Jason is older than 18.

----------


## Zaresh

I sort of remember Dick saying he was middle 20s recently in NW (thi syear at least). And we have had a new timeskip of a few months for NW and Doomsday, and probably RHatO too.

Also, Tim's line in Tec about being 16 could be read as him starting the Belfry project as 16, iirc. He may as well be 17 or 18 now.

----------


## G-Potion

So Jason's in Batman Beyond #25 after all. In a flashback but still as Red Hood.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't totally get what the last line means. Probably nothing good.

----------


## Konja7

> I sort of remember Dick saying he was middle 20s recently in NW (thi syear at least). And we have had a new timeskip of a few months for NW and Doomsday, and probably RHatO too.
> 
> Also, Tim's line in Tec about being 16 could be read as him starting the Belfry project as 16, iirc. He may as well be 17 or 18 now.


I really doubt DC wants Tim to be 17 or 18, especially with Young Justice coming. So I would assume Tim is still 16.

I don't include the issue with Doomsday Clock, because we don't know how that will end. This could end up with everyone younger.


Anyway, regarding Jason, it seems he's age is vague for now.

----------


## Zaresh

> I really doubt DC wants Tim to be 17 or 18, especially with Young Justice coming. So I would assume Tim is still 16.
> 
> I don't include the issue with Doomsday Clock, because we don't know how that will end. This could end up with everyone younger.
> 
> 
> Anyway, regarding Jason, it seems he's age is vague for now.


Still, Nightwing is four months from the shoot in Batman, and RHATO is a month and a bit more since the beating in #26, probably almost two months. We're advancing towards the six months skip in Doomsday Clock. Tim being 17 still fits for that new book for me, to be honest.

But yeah, Jason age ¡s vague. Most of their ages are, I think. Not without reason: it works better for a lax continuity.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I don't totally get what the last line means. Probably nothing good.


Uh Oh! What happened?

----------


## Aahz

With Young Justice coming up, it is imo eve possible that they age him further down. Tim was 15 when he was on Young Justice, and didn't became 16 untill after Graduation Day. 




> I sort of remember Dick saying he was middle 20s recently in NW (thi syear at least).


I checked it it was issue #43. But it is hard to say how canonical that is, since that was an issue by a guest writer.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I don't totally get what the last line means. Probably nothing good.


Since is someone telling the story to Terry, it would seem that whatever happened to Jason was before that fight against Freeze.

----------


## G-Potion

> Since is someone telling the story to Terry, it would seem that whatever happened to Jason was before that fight against Freeze.


Yeah you're probably right. Since the whole flashback is dedicated to Jason, I wonder if he'll make an appearance down the line.

----------


## G-Potion

> Uh Oh! What happened?


Dick was just telling his daughter stories about Batman and how he made Gotham better, illustrated by the fight against Freeze, and it went like this:

----------


## Jackalope89

So, maybe we get to see Old Man Jason? Maybe he finally offs the Joker. With a crowbar of the future!

----------


## Arsenal

> Dick was just telling his daughter stories about Batman and how he made Gotham better, illustrated by the fight against Freeze, and it went like this:


As far as Jason cameos go, this actually wasn’t that bad.

----------


## oasis1313

Jason deserves whatever revenge he wants to take on the Joker.

----------


## Jackalope89

So, came across an interesting Jason series fanfic. Teen Titans centric, but takes bits and pieces from all over. Bonds him with Raven after he steals an item from her. Other than the odd grammar mistake, its actually not bad. Expands on the Bat, Wonder, Super, etc families. Not a simple ship fic, unless you're Damian trying to get Raven and Jason together. And reunite him with the rest of the Bats, whom have quite the reputation for being crazy. 

Also has DickxKori, FYI. Takes a LOT of influence from the old Teen Titans animated series as well. With Jason as Red X.

----------


## G-Potion

Soyyyy

Wanted: Red Hood

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## G-Potion

> As far as Jason cameos go, this actually wasn’t that bad.


Yeah it's pretty standard. It does raise the question of where he is now. Hopefully not involved with or becoming the new Joker.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm sick of Jason's signature trait being "he was bad/corrupted/insane" though.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm sick of Jason's signature trait being "he was bad/corrupted/insane" though.


I'd settle for the "eccentric uncle that swears too much, but looks after the street rats" though. Would be different, but suiting.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'd settle for the "eccentric uncle that swears too much, but looks after the street rats" though. Would be different, but suiting.


That sounds good.  I've always liked it that Jason didn't toe the line and wanted to do things his own way.  Black sheep or whatever they wanted to call him.  It's always incredible to me that he wants to continue to fight the good fight instead of becoming a villain after all the Hell he went through.

----------


## Zaresh

> Soyyyy
> 
> Wanted: Red Hood


Inktober is a feast. And we are lucky with Dexter being now an absolute fan.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'm sick of Jason's signature trait being "he was bad/corrupted/insane" though.


For this instance I don't think it quite goes that way. I mean, it might be implied to a degree but this is from the family's point of view, so Jason is always going to be viewed as a black sheep. But nothing he did in there was OOC for him. I'd be more worried about where they take it from here, if Jason is to pop up later.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'd settle for the "eccentric uncle that swears too much, but looks after the street rats" though. Would be different, but suiting.


Funny thing is, I think Jason doesn't swear in the comics. At all. Not even midly. He can be harsh to the bone, but he doesn't swear. Not as far as I remember, and it's not just because no one swears in G rated comics. With Lobdel, one could even say he is funny purposedly using very unswearing words (at this point I think he's even making a point of making Jason being the most harsh posible but with a clean mouthed).

I do remember Tim almost swearing once or twice, though. But that could be becaue certain writer's personal touch.

----------


## Zaresh

> For this instance I don't think it quite goes that way. I mean, it might be implied to a degree but this is from the family's point of view, so Jason is always going to be viewed as a black sheep. But nothing he did in there was OOC for him. I'd be more worried about where they take it from here, if Jason is to pop up later.


I agree. Also, it seems like he did suffer later on even worse that what he had to deal with when he died and come back? Or am I reading too much into those wing dialogue boxes?

----------


## RedBird

> For this instance I don't think it quite goes that way. I mean, it might be implied to a degree but this is from the family's point of view, so Jason is always going to be viewed as a black sheep. But nothing he did in there was OOC for him. I'd be more worried about where they take it from here, if Jason is to pop up later.


Yeah Jason, isn't actually OOC here, I'd dare say it's an acceptable portrayal, however the lens in which characters are viewed makes all the difference imo. Even if it wasn't for the comics story forcing another, 'Jason is just unhinged and violent narrative', isn't it kinda sad that even after like what, 20? 30 years? The rest of the family and the storylines for him are STILL only being used to finger wag at the character and look down on him. After death, after rebirth, after apparently years of development, it's still at the tsk tsk 'whatever you do, don't be like Jason' stage, either that's all he is remembered for and/or something tells me Jason 'got worse' as time went on in this universe.

I bought the issue for Major Dick, but now I'm just put off by how and where this story is going. Since Jason has been brought to attention and focused on for the first time in this series and coincidentally within the same issue, its revealed the 'Joker' is still alive and well, I'm kinda expecting it to be a twisted version of Jason for whatever reason. :/

----------


## Aahz

Btw. didn't Jason do the thing with putting a Bomb on Mr. Freezes helmet in UTRH?

----------


## Aahz

> I bought the issue for Major Dick, but now I'm just put off by how and where this story is going. Since Jason has been brought to attention and focused on for the first time in this series and coincidentally within the same issue, its revealed the 'Joker' is still alive and well, I'm kinda expecting it to be a twisted version of Jason for whatever reason. :/


Wouldn't that be kind of a rip-off of Return of the Joker (and The Dark Knight Strikes Again)?

----------


## RedBird

> Wouldn't that be kind of a rip-off of Return of the Joker (and The Dark Knight Strikes Again)?


Are you saying the comics are _above_ ripping off even some of the worst stories  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Zaresh

> Are you saying the comics are _above_ ripping off even some of the worst stories


Hey, Return of the Joker was nice. I mean, it was awful for BTNA's Tim (who, yeah, was very, very Jason-ish), but it was entertaining.

----------


## Rise

> I'm sick of Jason's signature trait being "he was bad/corrupted/insane" though.


I don't get this impression at all. Jason is violent and the narrative in that issue is giving a sympathetic approach about why he is the way he is because of the tragedies he faced in his life compared to how it was years ago where they used to blame it on him being troubled and how anything bad happened to him is because of him.

I'm glad that DC is stopping the victim blaming they used to do and wish Lobdell would stop it too.

----------


## Rise

> I bought the issue for Major Dick, but now I'm just put off by how and where this story is going. Since Jason has been brought to attention and focused on for the first time in this series and coincidentally within the same issue, its revealed the 'Joker' is still alive and well, I'm kinda expecting it to be a twisted version of Jason for whatever reason. :/


Redbird, what happened to you? You become so pessimistic lately whenever Jason appeared in anything and always expect the worst scenario possible. Let's wait for the story to end and then judge.

----------


## Sergard

Newsarama has an interview with Dan Jurgens about the current story arc in Batman Beyond:
https://www.newsarama.com/42450-dan-...an-beyond.html




> [...]We pay some attention to Jason Todd here as well.[...]


In my eyes, that sounds more like Jason will only appear in flashbacks. But I could be totally wrong.
How old would Jason be if he is/was still alive in Batman Beyond? The interview says Bruce is around 75-80. But Dick looks like 60 at most and Damian like around 30.
That's a little confusing. But I'm more curious to see if Jason has kids in that universe.

----------


## Rise

Who knows, the random flashback does seem like a set up for him to appear especially with the Joker showing up.

----------


## Aahz

> Newsarama has an interview with Dan Jurgens about the current story arc in Batman Beyond:
> https://www.newsarama.com/42450-dan-...an-beyond.html
> 
> 
> 
> In my eyes, that sounds more like Jason will only appear in flashbacks. But I could be totally wrong.
> How old would Jason be if he is/was still alive in Batman Beyond? The interview says Bruce is around 75-80. But Dick looks like 60 at most and Damian like around 30.
> That's a little confusing. But I'm more curious to see if Jason has kids in that universe.


Futures End was set 35 year in the Future (and Terrys Father is currently a student at Gotham Academy and at least close to Damians age).

Based on this Jason should be in his early to mid 50s, Dick in his mid to late 50s (or early 60s) and Damian in his mid to late 40s.

----------


## RedBird

> Hey, Return of the Joker was nice. I mean, it was awful for BTNA's Tim (who, yeah, was very, very Jason-ish), but it was entertaining.


To be fair, I was referring to TDKSA when I was referring to the 'worst' stories. I liked ROTJ too, that was a pretty dark storyline.






> Redbird, what happened to you? You become so pessimistic lately whenever Jason appeared in anything and always expect the worst scenario possible. Let's wait for the story to end and then judge.


To be fair, I was less going with general pessimism towards Jason appearances and more the fact that I was looking at the storytelling and putting two and two together. First time Jason is mentioned. Okay cool, why mention him, he is almost always been ignored, so why do characters suddenly give a damn? But then oh, Joker once thought dead, suddenly returns, suspiciously contacting Babs and acting like he knows her, looking at general storytelling, it's a possible outcome. I didn't say this was 100% I just said I don't like the clues I'm reading, I don't think it's that out of the realm of possibility that a chekhovs gun (Jason) was being planted in this story for the payoff (reveal).

But okay, if we are going by history, well. History tends to repeat itself?
If Jason is going to be a major element to the BB story, to be fair, besides maybe Bombshells, I can't actually think of any _major_ appearance where Jason was either not OOC, hampered by another UTRH-like story line or in general had a 'bad ending' negative alternate scenario. No these aren't the worst things in the world, but they just serve to make me less than thrilled about any appearances, with past examples in mind, I just don't have any expectations for something 'good', why would I? I should note, any appearance _not major_ (or important to the story) and he (and others too) are otherwise just underutilized, which to be fair is fine and my preferred outcome to be honest as well as the most logical. It's the one that usually leads to more interesting and fun concepts that can be fleshed out by fans, like Father Todd. 

Like I said I bought this issue for Major Dick, because I just like the fact that the comic was presenting Dick outside of vigilantism as having a positive future where he builds something for himself, same with Commissioner (Barbara) Gordon and Damian who uses his position in BB to control and right the world. That's refreshing. But, (and granted this extends to a lot of characters in general) I just can't recall Jason having any luck in specifically these future scenarios either. I'm pretty sure in the few futures we've seen, he was a child killer in Kings Batman, he was crippled and thus lost his will to live and took drugs in Batwoman, he was a child manipulating psychopath in Mother Panic AD (granted I liked the end of that book but that's not to say I liked how it got there). 

But, you know what Rise, I'll admit BB has surprised me with it's presentation thus far for the batfam, cause future scenarios usually don't work out for them, so we'll see, in Jasons case, hopefully this story also sets up a nice or interesting future for him.

----------


## RedBird

> Who knows, the random flashback does seem like a set up for him to appear especially with the Joker showing up.


You know what, if he gets to kill the Joker, I'll rate this comic 10/10.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

EDIT: You know what? There's also a suspicious timing to Matt becoming Robin in this issue and an emphasis placed on that. 
If this comic ends with Jason writing the wrongs of the past and saving Matt from the Joker. 10/10.

----------


## Sergard

> http://m-alejandrita.tumblr.com/post/179127259950


There is a fanfiction now that was inspired by this fanart.
It's cute.

----------


## RedBird

You know, this made me realize something. My expectations for Jason outside of comics? Much Higher, because history. UTRH film? Loved it. Arkham Knight? Loved it. Injustice 2? Loved it. Jason in Titans? So far loving the concept they're going for, so yeah. I'm excited for that one. Too bad I gotta wait for Netflix to put it up once the seasons over (I'm assuming). I hear the episodes are getting better.

----------


## Rise

> .....


To be fair, when characters ever not ooc outside their books  (just look at the way Bendis handled JL in Superman which was really cringy) except for some very rare occasions? Characters who appear as guests are always used just for the sake of story and it's not easy for writers who never have history with them to get their voices right from couple of pages. 

And in the future alternative scenarios you mentioned, Jason end up picking himself in all of them. He become a successful businessman in the booster future (I know King couldn't help himself to twist it later since he love his dark twists, but still..), he picked himself up and was the only one helping Kate in that future while the rest either abandon the cause or become twisted and he end up redeeming himself and got himself a family in MP. That's not bad at all.

----------


## G-Potion

> To be fair, I was less going with general pessimism towards Jason appearances and more the fact that I was looking at the storytelling and putting two and two together. First time Jason is mentioned. Okay cool, why mention him, he is almost always been ignored, so why do characters suddenly give a damn?


I think (hope) the reason that Jason gets in now is because DC is trying to promote him, hence we are now seeing him in Mother Panic, TT, TT Annual and BB. Tumblr source also hinted that we'll be getting more. Which is a positive thing in the bigger picture. I hope.

----------


## RedBird

> To be fair, when characters ever not ooc outside their books except for some very rare occasions (just look at the way Bendis handled JL in Superman which was really cringy)? Characters who appear as guests are always used for the story and it's not easy for writers who never have history with them to get their voices right from couple of pages.


I know, that's why I mentioned him (and others) not usually have 'great' outcomes. Which is why my expectations are considerably low, at least for comics.





> And in the future alternative scenarios you mentioned, Jason end up picking himself in all of them. He become a successful businessman in the booster future (I know King couldn't help himself to twist it later since he love his dark twists, but still..), he picked himself up and was the only one helping Kate in that future while the rest either abandon the cause or become twisted and he end up redeeming himself and got himself a family in MP. That's not bad at all.


Yeah, I already wrote a whole piece about how I liked the ending for MP, but like I said I did not care for how Jason was portrayed in the beginning, getting innocents and especially kids hurt should be a no no. And sorry Rise, I just can't look over the fact that Jason becomes a straight up child killer in Batman just cause he is also a self made business man, that just makes him a corrupt business man then, that one is REALLY not one I can spin positively. The Batwoman one had him pick himself up sure, but we didn't even see where that went. All we were privy to was Jason going off the deep end and then being kinda okay next to Kate. The only part that was fleshed out was Jason losing himself. 

And to quote myself, all these examples are still not going against the comics grain and being _'major appearances where Jason was either not OOC, hampered by another UTRH-like story line or in general had a 'bad ending' negative alternate scenario'._ I wasn't trying to claim cringe, bad or lame appearances was a Jason centric problem, it happens to all characters of course, but these three issues, and especially the UTRH-like (crazy villain/bad robin etc) story line issue, seem to be hamper Jason in his appearances.

----------


## RedBird

> I think (hope) the reason that Jason gets in now is because DC is trying to promote him, hence we are now seeing him in Mother Panic, TT, TT Annual and BB. Tumblr source also hinted that we'll be getting more. Which is a positive thing in the bigger picture. I hope.


Despite my grievances Mother Panic ended much better than I would have expected, so much so that I was disappointed we didn't get more of a continuation. I'll take 6 issues of Jason in the background being a fun Uncle to Fennec Fox instead thanks. Don't know how TT is going to handle the character, I'm still curious over this whole 'betrayal' thing, is Jason selling Damian out to bad guys? Is he giving Bruce info about Damian and his prison? Is it a complete misunderstanding since we know there is a Wingman impostor in rhato soon? That last one would actually impress me that the editors managed to tie two comics together.

----------


## G-Potion

> Don't know how TT is going to handle the character, I'm still curious over this whole 'betrayal' thing, is Jason selling Damian out to bad guys? Is he giving Bruce info about Damian and his prison? Is it a complete misunderstanding since we know there is a Wingman impostor in rhato soon? That last one would actually impress me that the editors managed to tie two comics together.


TT editor used to edit RHATO and is still a fan. That should count for something when it comes to the portrayal of Jason, maybe.

----------


## RedBird

> TT editor used to edit RHATO and is still a fan. That should count for something when it comes to the portrayal of Jason, maybe.


Well I think it's still the writers call at the end of the day how characters are portrayed, BUT, since he has been on both titles maybe that could help to support the 'tied story lines' argument, that is if the story _does_ go with the betrayal being a misunderstanding in TT maybe leading to a revelation in rhato that Jason was set up by impostor Wingman or something or rather, connecting the story lines.

----------


## Rise

Correct me if I wrong since I haven't read the booster arc since it came out, but didn't these kids die in unfortunate accident while they were trying to steal cars? I don't remember Jason intending for them to die nor he created the device for that purpose. It's not ok that his device end up killing some kids, but calling him a "child killer" is a bit harsh since he didn't went out of his way to kill these kids. Also, the booster future was all twisted and dark  that shouldn't be taken seriously and the only one who come off looking bad from it was Booster himself. 

I guess I'm just little tired of always seeing posts here expecting the worst case scenarios whenever Jason show up in something. It's not that serious so let's take it easy.

----------


## RedBird

> Correct me if I wrong since I haven't read the booster arc since it came out, but didn't these kids die in unfortunate accident while they were trying to steal cars? I don't remember Jason intending for them to die nor he created the device for that purpose. It's not ok that his device end up killing some kids, but calling him a "child killer" is a bit harsh since he didn't went out of his way to kill these kids. Also, the booster future was all twisted and dark  that shouldn't be taken seriously and the only one who come off looking bad from it was Booster himself. 
> 
> I guess I'm just little tired of always seeing posts here expecting the worst case scenarios whenever Jason show up in something. It's not that serious so let's take it easy.


I think most the bat characters come off looking bad in future scenarios, it's why I mentioned it as a reason for me not being too optimistic about BB, though like I said, BB has a better track record so it might surpirse. 

And no worries I am takin it easy, I never claimed this was a serious issue, but sorry Rise, I can't help my feelings or rather fearing(s) of these negative outcomes, not when they seem to happen a little too often for my liking. In BBs case, it's a little different to be fair, this was just me sensing a pattern with the story and how it decided to unfold itself. In most scenarios, comics appearances have just made me much more careful about feeling invested thanks to some patterns crumby/negative portrayals. I await everything with caution.

EDIT: Also about the Booster scenario, yeah the deaths are unintended, but his statement about them was that such incidents are 'the unfortunate biproduct of trying to improve this tough city'. I think both from viewing his smug face when released on bail and that answer are meant to imply that he doesn't really care and feels the deaths are just unfortunate consequence to what has to be done to help Gotham. So yeah, if someone is okay with something they did killing children, I think child killer is still an appropriate description.

----------


## RedBird

Moving on, I retract my statement, Bombshells along with lil Gotham and Tiny Titans had the best portrayals, of Jason and (between those last two) perhaps of any characters. XD

@dori_yagi



Seriously though those comics were so cute, so pleasant.

----------


## Konja7

> I guess I'm just little tired of always seeing posts here expecting the worst case scenarios whenever Jason show up in something. It's not that serious so let's take it easy.


It is clearly that there is a situation where the writers handle Jason based on a certain bad reputation (not his current comic) that he has. That's why fans can not help being defensive.

Batman Beyond clearly put Jason in a negative light, due to the way he was presented. I still expect some kind of subversion (like Damian's case), but I understand that many fans are worried.


I'm more worried about the Three Jokers Story, because I'm pretty sure Jason is who "heal wrong" in this story. 

"Did not heal at all" is the special one, then that goes to Batman, while "heal good" goes definitely for Barbara.

----------


## RedBird

> I'm more worried about the Three Jokers Story, because I'm pretty sure Jason is who "heal wrong" in this story. 
> 
> "Did not heal at all" is the special one, then that goes to Batman, while "heal good" goes definitely for Barbara.


That was my assumption as well, if it was my choice I would have placed Jason in the 'Did not heal at all' category, but that leaves Bruce with 'healed wrong' and that doesn't sound quite right either, plus as you mention 'did not heal at all' sounds kinda 'special' so that would most likely go to the main star of the story.

----------


## Rise

And what that bad reputation he has? Was Superman writen as a villain in Injustice because of his bad reputation? Did Miller make Dick a joker in his verse because of his bad reputation? Etc.

I don't think Jason looked in negative light in BB. It was said that the tragedies and the violent in his life did affect him, but it didn't say that it turned him into bad person and he was also even shown as one of the heroes in Gotham.

Making assumptions about stories before they finish or even come out is pointless complain and add nothing. If they are good, good for us. If they aren't, no harm no foul.

----------


## RedBird

> Making assumptions about stories before they finish or even come out is pointless complain and add nothing. If they are good, good for us. If they aren't, no harm no foul.


Well unfortunately comics are a month by month or bi monthly medium, kinda wanna talk about SOMETHING while the time is passing and the story is released piece by piece. What's wrong with looking at the pieces in hand and trying to put it together or theorize for the discussion? In the middle of a story curiosities and assumptions are all we really have. Did you sense a different direction from this BB story? If so, do tell.

When the story is over of course everyone will judge the tale based on it's own merits, no one is influenced by their own presumptions here, we all just have different expectations and readings of the same books.

----------


## Konja7

> And what that bad reputation he has? Was Superman writen as a villain in Injustice because of his bad reputation? Did Miller make Dick a joker in his verse because of his bad reputation? Etc.
> 
> I don't think Jason looked in negative light in BB. It was said that the tragedies and the violent in his life did affect him, but it didn't say that it turned him into bad person and he was also even shown as one of the heroes in Gotham.
> 
> Making assumptions about stories before they finish or even come out is pointless complain and add nothing. If they are good, good for us. If they aren't, no harm no foul.


Well, Jason has the reputation that he's crazy, extremely violent and full of rage. 

The way that Jason appear in the flashback of Batman Beyond isn't a good light. They want to show him as crazy and violent in his first appearance in the comic, maybe tragic at some point (although this was just tell, not show). As I said, maybe it will be a subversion like Damian's case, but that was the first impression.

----------


## RedBird

> Well, Jason has the reputation that he's crazy, extremely violent and full of rage.
> 
> The way that Jason appear in the flashback of Batman Beyond isn't a good light. They want to show him as crazy and violent in his first appearance in the comic, maybe tragic at some point (although this was just tell, not show). As I said, maybe it will be a subversion like Damian's case, but that was the first impression.


I'm hoping for a subversion, the one they did with Damian was pretty cool and set him up with a future where he was a responsible leader with a new and interesting role.

----------


## RedBird

Is it just me or does this panel almost have a sense of comedic timing XD

Like, could you explain the difference in Bruces and Jasons morality?

Shows this image

----------


## Rise

> Well unfortunately comics are a month by month or bi monthly medium, kinda wanna talk about SOMETHING while the time is passing and the story is released piece by piece. What's wrong with looking at the pieces in hand and trying to put it together or theorize for the discussion? In the middle of a story curiosities and assumptions are all we really have. Did you sense a different direction from this BB story? If so, do tell.
> 
> When the story is over of course everyone will judge the tale based on it's own merits, no one is influenced by their own presumptions here, we all just have different expectations and readings of the same books.


Jason was a very small part of the story and might be not even show up later. I have no theory about his role.

I judge and discuss Jason's characterization in RHATO every month because it's his book the same way with Batman's book or any character I'm interested in. Their appearancess in other books has no affect on how I see them and I don't bother with what I don't find interesting.

----------


## G-Potion

> Moving on, I retract my statement, Bombshells along with lil Gotham and Tiny Titans had the best portrayals, of Jason and (between those last two) perhaps of any characters. XD
> 
> @dori_yagi
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though those comics were so cute, so pleasant.


Aah that's hella cute. Again I approve shark teeth-ed Damian.

----------


## G-Potion

> Is it just me or does this panel almost have a sense of comedic timing XD
> 
> Like, could you explain the difference in Bruces and Jasons morality?
> 
> Shows this image


I thought the same thing. XD

----------


## RedBird

> Jason was a very small part of the story and might be not even show up later. I have no theory about his role.
> 
> I judge and discuss Jason's characterization in RHATO every month because it's his book the same way with Batman's book or any character I'm interested in. Their appearancess in other books has no affect on how I see them and I don't bother with what I don't find interesting.


Ah well, okay, if you're not interested I guess I just won't try and discuss appearances of Jason in BB with you in particular, my bad. Also could you reiterate your last sentence, are you not _at all_ interested in appearances in other books or just the ones you don't find interesting, cause I can agree with the latter.

----------


## dietrich

> Despite my grievances Mother Panic ended much better than I would have expected, so much so that I was disappointed we didn't get more of a continuation. I'll take 6 issues of Jason in the background being a fun Uncle to Fennec Fox instead thanks. Don't know how TT is going to handle the character, I'm still curious over this whole 'betrayal' thing, is Jason selling Damian out to bad guys? Is he giving Bruce info about Damian and his prison? Is it a complete misunderstanding since we know there is a Wingman impostor in rhato soon? That last one would actually impress me that the editors managed to tie two comics together.


Jason giving Bruce intel on Damian really doesn't vibe at all with something he would do nor does selling an ally out to bad guys. It would be awesome if the two stories link up or could it be the imposter working Batman.

----------


## G-Potion

> Well, Jason has the reputation that he's crazy, extremely violent and full of rage. 
> 
> The way that Jason appear in the flashback of Batman Beyond isn't a good light. *They want to show him as crazy and violent in his first appearance in the comic*, maybe tragic at some point (although this was just tell, not show). As I said, maybe it will be a subversion like Damian's case, but that was the first impression.


I don't get the impression from this comic though. He was stated to pay violence with violence, which is not wrong to his character. He was shown working with Batman and was willing to kill because Batman was in danger. Was completely cool headed about it rather than brimming with rage. There is a chance that next time we see him, tragedy will have finally reduced him to a loony mess. But that's fear talking. This issue on its own, I just don't see it.

----------


## dietrich

> Moving on, I retract my statement, Bombshells along with lil Gotham and Tiny Titans had the best portrayals, of Jason and (between those last two) perhaps of any characters. XD
> 
> @dori_yagi
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously though those comics were so cute, so pleasant.


I do love Red Bucket Jason  :Smile:

----------


## Konja7

> Jason was a very small part of the story and might be not even show up later. I have no theory about his role.
> 
> I judge and discuss Jason's characterization in RHATO every month because it's his book the same way with Batman's book or any character I'm interested in. Their appearancess in other books has no affect on how I see them and I don't bother with what I don't find interesting.


You were discussing the apearance of Jason in Batman Beyond. Otherwise, you would not be talking about this at this time. If you don't want to discuss that topic, you don't need to participate in that topic

In this thread, I guess we can even talk about Jason small participation in Batman Beyond. There is no reason why we can not discuss it.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason giving Bruce intel on Damian really doesn't vibe at all with something he would do nor does selling an ally out to bad guys. It would be awesome if the two stories link up or could it be the imposter working Batman.


Hmm for the intel one, granted it's not completely IC, but I was initially thinking I could see the writer setting up the story so that Jason rats Damian out to Bruce in some kind of 'it's for your own good' scenario, so Damians newfound 'darker path' is put to a stop early so his relationship with his father doesn't become as strained as Jasons. 

But I agree linking the stories up would be really cool and awesome, and seeing the timing of it all makes me think it's a real possibility  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> I don't get the impression from this comic though. He was stated to pay violence with violence, which is not wrong to his character. He was shown working with Batman and was willing to kill because Batman was in danger. Was completely cool headed about it rather than brimming with rage. There is a chance that next time we see him, tragedy will have finally reduced him to a loony mess. But that's fear talking. This issue on its own, I just don't see it.


Yeah nah, he is pretty IC in this issue, but I'm with you, I kinda wonder what tragedy hit him up even AFTER everything else. Do you think he will be the victim of the Joker like in Return of the Joker, and that's the second tragedy that's being implied? Or does that role still go to Tim in this universe, is that story even partially canon? I've been a bit on and off with this series myself, I'm not sure.

----------


## Konja7

> I don't get the impression from this comic though. He was stated to pay violence with violence, which is not wrong to his character. He was shown working with Batman and was willing to kill because Batman was in danger. Was completely cool headed about it rather than brimming with rage. There is a chance that next time we see him, tragedy will have finally reduced him to a loony mess. But that's fear talking. This issue on its own, I just don't see it.


If Jason's actions happened on his comic, I would agree that it fits his character. 

However, the context is important. Batman Beyond is a comic where Jason appears for first time. In this, we see Jason brutally killing, while Batman ask him to stop (and the narration speaks about his emotional problems). So, it conveys a bad impression from Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> Yeah nah, he is pretty IC in this issue, but I'm with you, I kinda wonder what tragedy hit him up even AFTER everything else. Do you think he will be the victim of the Joker like in Return of the Joker, and that's the second tragedy that's being implied? Or does that role still go to Tim in this universe, is that story even partially canon? I've been a bit on and off with this series myself, I'm not sure.


I'm not following this series myself. Only picked it up for Jason.

Like Dark said, the second tragedy seems to have happened before the Freeze fight, and he came out of it still acting like his usual self. So there has to be an untold story to explain how Jason might potentially become worse later in life. But yeah, the timing of all this, for the purpose of promoting Jason aside, it's concerning that he's here now when Joker is involved. It's hard to not make a mental link to a scenario like Return of the Joker. We'll have to see if Barbara survives first though.

----------


## dietrich

> Hmm for the intel one, granted it's not completely IC, but I was initially thinking I could see the writer setting up the story so that Jason rats Damian out to Bruce in some kind of 'it's for your own good' scenario, so Damians newfound 'darker path' is put to a stop early so his relationship with his father doesn't become as strained as Jasons. 
> 
> But I agree linking the stories up would be really cool and awesome, and seeing the timing of it all makes me think it's a real possibility


The reason why I  still nervous even with the for your own good scenario is that they didn't show Jason attempt to sway Damian or talk sense into into him first which is how Jason would act if he believed Damian was making a mistake. We have seen him counsel him before. I can't see Jason pretending on to tell behind his back or not outright telling him he's going about this the wrong way the instant he came to him.

It just feels out of character but still keeping fingers crossed. I don't know much about Glass'history with sticking to correct representations. I was concerned with the breaking into the Batcave when the character lives there. I hope we don't get drama for the sake of drama or ignoring what set about these characters. 
TT has been on point under him so again fingers crossed.

Have been hoping that the Bendis Levithan arc, the Silencer story will link up with RedHood or Damian getting manipulated

----------


## Rise

> You were discussing the apearance of Jason in Batman Beyond. Otherwise, you would not be talking about this at this time. If you don't want to discuss that topic, you don't need to participate in that topic
> 
> In this thread, I guess we can even talk about Jason small participation in Batman Beyond. There is no reason why we can not discuss it.


I'm sorry, but when did I say you aren't allowed to discuss Jason's appearances? I only said don't jump to conclusion and assume the worst when we don't know the full story yet and Jason might not even appear latter. Give the creative team the benfit of doubt before assuming the worst of their stories.

----------


## G-Potion

> If Jason's actions happened on his comic, I would agree that it fits his character. 
> 
> However, the context is important. Batman Beyond is a comic where Jason appears for first time. In this, we see Jason brutally killing, while Batman ask him to stop (and the narration speaks about his emotional problems). *So, it conveys a bad impression from Jason.*


He did stop didn't he? Anyway, I think not listening to Batman (especially on morality matters) has been his shtick for so long that doing otherwise without a good argument would make an equally bad impression. I'd rather he acts the way that's true to his character across the board. That's why I'm not too fond of his appearances in many Batfam events. It's like, he's all bark, no bite, reduced to a comic relief etc etc.

----------


## G-Potion

> Have been hoping that the Bendis Levithan arc, the Silencer story will link up with RedHood or Damian getting manipulated


I'm incredibly wary of manipulation plot. Always make the characters look bad. :/

----------


## RedBird

> If Jason's actions happened on his comic, I would agree that it fits his character. 
> 
> However, the context is important. Batman Beyond is a comic where Jason appears for first time. In this, we see Jason brutally killing, while Batman ask him to stop (and the narration speaks about his emotional problems). So, it conveys a bad impression from Jason.


Yeah, that's the first thing I mentioned too, the lens in which actions are viewed. The comic especially makes a point of it by ending the flashback with a scene of Bruce saving Freeze from Jason and pushing him back, with an overarching statement about how 'Bruce dedicated his life to dragging Gotham out of the darkness...and into the light'. Connecting his more merciful actions here with a statement of uplifting others into 'light' it seems to portray Bruce's actions as inherently 'good' and 'the right thing to do' which is fair, but that means by contrast Jason's are 'wrong' since he was directly in opposition to that. 
This does seem pretty black and white though, almost suspiciously too much, so all in all I'm really hoping for a Damian-like subversion here.





> I'm not following this series myself. Only picked it up for Jason.
> 
> Like Dark said, the second tragedy seems to have happened before the Freeze fight, and he came out of it still acting like his usual self. So there has to be an untold story to explain how Jason might potentially become worse later in life. But yeah, the timing of all this, for the purpose of promoting Jason aside, it's concerning that he's here now when Joker is involved. It's hard to not make a mental link to a scenario like Return of the Joker. We'll have to see if Barbara survives first though.


Hmm I'm not 100% that the second tragedy happened before the freeze fight, the dialogue only seems to imply that the tragedy made Jason just as or even worse before. It's not like Dick is recalling a memory her, the flashback is context for the audience. And gosh I hope Babs lives, I can't tell if you're joking or not with that comment, cause let me tell you, I also can't tell if the writer was joking either 

_Nrama: And with a word like final in the title, is this the end game for one or more of the characters? Should we be concerned about some of them?
Jurgens: I would like everybody to always be concerned about the characters in the book, yes!_

----------


## Rise

> Ah well, okay, if you're not interested I guess I just won't try and discuss appearances of Jason in BB with you in particular, my bad. Also could you reiterate your last sentence, are you not _at all_ interested in appearances in other books or just the ones you don't find interesting, cause I can agree with the latter.


No need for the passive aggressive attitude with me, RedBird. We are better than this. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way and I only made that comment because you were one of the most postive people here which I always liked about you and I thought it was strange how pessimistic you have become lately.

I read BB before I even know Jason was there because it was a very boring week of DC and wanted to try something new. Jason showing up was a pleasant suprise that made me smile, but didn't think much of it. That's it.

----------


## Konja7

> I'm sorry, but when did I say you aren't allowed to discuss Jason's appearances? I only said don't jump to conclusion and assume the worst when we don't know the full story yet and Jason might not even appear latter. Give the creative team the benfit of doubt before assuming the worst of their stories.


I'm sorry, I misinterpreted your words.

I give the benefit of doubt to Batman Beyond, I think it can be a subversion in the future. I just think Jason first appearance on Batman Beyond gives a bad impression. 

Although I really do not have many expectations for Three Jokers.

----------


## RedBird

> He did stop didn't he?


I'm sorry that sentence just sounds hilariously in character. 
You were gonna kill him!
Well I stopped didn't I? XD

----------


## G-Potion

> Hmm I'm not 100% that the second tragedy happened before the freeze fight, the dialogue only seems to imply that the tragedy made Jason just as or even worse before. It's not like Dick is recalling a memory her, the flashback is context for the audience. And gosh I hope Babs lives, I can't tell if you're joking or not with that comment, cause let me tell you, I also can't tell if the writer was joking either 
> 
> _Nrama: And with a word like “final” in the title, is this the end game for one or more of the characters? Should we be concerned about some of them?
> Jurgens: I would like everybody to always be concerned about the characters in the book, yes!_


_Gaaah_ I didn't know about this.

----------


## Konja7

> He did stop didn't he? Anyway, I think not listening to Batman (especially on morality matters) has been his shtick for so long that doing otherwise without a good argument would make an equally bad impression. I'd rather he acts the way that's true to his character across the board. That's why I'm not too fond of his appearances in many Batfam events. It's like, he's all bark, no bite, reduced to a comic relief etc etc.


As I said, I don't mean Jason actions, but the way these are show on the story. Batman Beyond shown Batman as really good, while Jason as really wrong

Also, they could show other kind of scenes if they want to show Jason in a positive light.

----------


## RedBird

> No need for the passive aggressive attitude with me, RedBird. We are better than this. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way and I only made that comment because you were one of the most postive people here which I always liked about you and I thought it was strange how pessimistic you have become lately.
> 
> I read BB before I even know Jason was there because it was a very boring week of DC and wanted to try something new. Jason showing up was a pleasant suprise that made me smile, but didn't think much of it. That's it.


Thanks for the kind thoughts Rise, but what passive aggressiveness? I asked if you had an opinion/theory on Jason in this weeks BB and you said yourself you didn't and furthermore; 

_'I judge and discuss Jason's characterization in RHATO every month because it's his book the same way with Batman's book or any character I'm interested in. Their appearancess in other books has no affect on how I see them and I don't bother with what I don't find interesting.'_

Soooo my take away from this was that you aren't interested in talking about appearances out of rhato for Jason, (maybe specifically for BB only, I'm not 100% it's why I asked you to reiterate) which is fine either way, but I just wanted to make clear that I won't waste your time by specifically asking for input again if you don't find interest in that particular discussion, I just never intended to bother you this way. Similar to how I don't bother trying to get Darks input on why the white streak is so great  :Stick Out Tongue:  cause I know for sure he has no interest in that topic.

EDIT: Have I truly been more pessimistic? I didn't think my views on outside appearances changed so much, I've always been cautious about those. Perhaps it might seem that way because this months rhato was truly the first where I had mostly negative feeling towards it. I didn't get to gush this month about one of my favorite books, so one of the most major topics for me this month (rhato) was unfortunately negative. Perhaps that skewed the perception?

----------


## G-Potion

> As I said, I don't mean Jason actions, but the ways these are show on the story. Batman Beyond shown Batman as really good, while Jason as really wrong
> 
> Also, they could show other kind of scenes if they want to show Jason in a positive light.


I think I get where you and RedBird are coming from now. That said, it feels to me that even if Dick (and by extension, the family) affirms that Bruce's actions brought the light back to Gotham, he was right (and therefore Jason must be wrong); the way Joker made his appearance right after and plus the exposition that follows (on how Gotham regressed) kinda takes away some of that success, inadvertently saying that, hey, maybe it's not so black and white.

----------


## Rise

> ...


Ah, my bad, Red. I just missinterupted your words.

----------


## RedBird

> Ah, my bad, Red. I just missinterupted your words.


It's cool it's cool, I'm sorry that my statements came off the way they did. I just wanted you to know that was never my intention.

----------


## G-Potion

> EDIT: Have I truly been more pessimistic? I didn't think my views on outside appearances changed so much, I've always been cautious about those. Perhaps it might seem that way because this months rhato was truly the first where I had mostly negative feeling towards it. I didn't get to gush this month about one of my favorite books, so one of the most major topics for me this month (rhato) was unfortunately negative. Perhaps that skewed the perception?


This is by no means a complaint nor a criticism on you @RedBird, but I kinda feel some of what Rise said. Your comments are among those that I look forward to reading the most because they usually match my thinking pretty well and are way better worded, and it's true that recently (sometime since RHATO #25) I feel them to be a bit more jaded than usual, even if they are still as well reasoned.

----------


## Zaresh

I love this thread and its people.

I suspect the bad stuff that happens to Jason will not be addresed further, and it will have to do with the three jokers story.
I'm not having good feels about this (what happened to him, I mean), but... we will see.

----------


## G-Potion

Also when is @Aioros22 getting unbanned? Kinda miss seeing this dude around.  :Frown:

----------


## Jackalope89

Mama Bear Red Him.

----------


## RedBird

> This is by no means a complaint nor a criticism on you @RedBird, but I kinda feel some of what Rise said. Your comments are among those that I look forward to reading the most because they usually match my thinking pretty well and are way better worded, and it's true that recently (sometime since RHATO #25) I feel them to be a bit more jaded than usual, even if they are still as well reasoned.


Oh jeez, between you and Rise now I'm really feeling the love here.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Rise, G, I'm truly sorry if I brought down the mood, it was not my intention of course. Since you mention from #25 onwards, I guess I just couldn't help but feel wary of such a major shakeup and course change for a book I had a lot of love for as is. It also didn't help that a few threads on this forum became overloaded with negativity as of late, I think it's all rubbed off on me. 

I'll keep both your thoughts in mind, after all, I too enjoy myself when I'm not feeling so jaded.  :Big Grin:  So here's to a more positive outlook. And a big thanks to both of you, perhaps I don't express these sentiments enough but I really do enjoy this thread, the people and the thoughts shared here. I'm glad for the interesting discussions on top of the civility and understanding from you guys. Cheers

----------


## Zaresh

> Also when is @Aioros22 getting unbanned? Kinda miss seeing this dude around.


I hope mods behavior didn't chase Aioros22 away forever. And I hope it's not a permanent ban, neither.

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason-Bad Bruce, bad!

----------


## RedBird

> Also when is @Aioros22 getting unbanned? Kinda miss seeing this dude around.


When he gets back can someone please tell him to just keep out of the DG/nightwing forums, at this point, better safe than sorry.

----------


## RedBird

> Jason-Bad Bruce, bad!


Aw man, I really loved the art and colours for the Cult, so pulpy.

----------


## dietrich

> I'm incredibly wary of manipulation plot. Always make the characters look bad. :/


It's just with Talia been involved with Levithan, Silencer, Jason and Damian. Her history of manipulating it matches her MO. I honestly don't mind Talia type manipulation or rather I expect her to do that so I allow that. I just don't see her managing to get to Jason's strings at this point but the fake Wingman. I could see that and seems an angle she would relish just for the symbolism. She did have plans for Jason and Wingman was Jason going opposite of what she desired when she brought him back. She's still trying to use/push Damian onto his *real* path.

Maybe I'm overthinking it. These solicits are correct. If Jason and Damian are going to be acting Out of Character then I'd rather it explained as manipulation rather the readers being expected to swallow it as regular behaviour.

----------


## Aahz

> Moving on, I retract my statement, Bombshells along with lil Gotham and Tiny Titans had the best portrayals, of Jason and (between those last two) perhaps of any characters.


In lil Gotham Jason iirc unfortunatly mostly a background character that hardly got any screen time.

----------


## oasis1313

> In lil Gotham Jason iirc unfortunatly mostly a background character that hardly got any screen time.


It was mostly about Damian because he's the most relatable to young children.  But that has to be one of more favorite books of all times.  My favorite panel was Batman dressed up like a college professor droning on and on by a blackboard while Damian is asleep and drooling.

----------


## RedBird

Quick reference in Old Lady Harley #1



I like how Jason went from being in the examples that were exceptions to the rule of coming back alive, to being one of the first mentioned as making a come back. XD

----------


## Jackalope89

> Quick reference in Old Lady Harley #1
> 
> 
> 
> I like how Jason went from being in the examples that were exceptions to the rule of coming back alive, to being one of the first mentioned as making a come back. XD


It does make one wonder how Jason and Harley view one another now. Jason has a clear, obvious, and well earned hatred of Joker. And Harley, though originally taken in by Joker, has broken it off, and broken him, in the process. Maybe a oneshot with Jason in Harley's comic? I could see Jason be a bit wary around her, all things considered. But they could both get along as well. Or at least tolerate one another.

----------


## G-Potion

> It does make one wonder how Jason and Harley view one another now. Jason has a clear, obvious, and well earned hatred of Joker. And Harley, though originally taken in by Joker, has broken it off, and broken him, in the process. Maybe a oneshot with Jason in Harley's comic? I could see Jason be a bit wary around her, all things considered. But they could both get along as well. Or at least tolerate one another.


In RHATO yeah, he is wary of her partly, or mainly because of his experience under her psychological "therapy" although I wish Lobdell would flesh that out a bit more. I could see them having an emotional one shot together also, but maybe somewhere else rather than Harley's comic.

----------


## Jackalope89

> In RHATO yeah, he is wary of her partly, or mainly because of his experience under her psychological "therapy" although I wish Lobdell would flesh that out a bit more. I could see them having an emotional one shot together also, but maybe somewhere else rather than Harley's comic.


Well, at least in her own comic she's her own anti-hero and no longer with the Suicide Squad. Hence my suggestion.

----------


## Rise

> Quick reference in Old Lady Harley #1
> 
> 
> 
> I like how Jason went from being in the examples that were exceptions to the rule of coming back alive, to being one of the first mentioned as making a come back. XD


Is the "nutty red headed chick" is a reference to Jean from X-Men? Because this would be funny.

----------


## Rise

I have a question to ask. What things you don't like about the way Loddell write Jason and wish he would change? And what things you were happy that he added to Jason?

----------


## G-Potion

> I have a question to ask. What things you don't like about the way Loddell write Jason and wish he would change? And what things you were happy that he added to Jason?


It's not dislike per se, and I'm not sure if it's Lobdell or it's the result of Jason's design aesthetic with dual guns but I used to wish he had his skillsets and fighting prowess as established by Winick back. Obviously with the new direction, it is coming back in some form. I'd still like to see a more tactical Jason.

I also prefer Winick's voice for Jason when it comes to humor and sarcasm.  

Oh, his version of UTH. Why does it change every time it's referenced? Similarly, I wish Sheila were kept as Jason's biological mom. But again I'm not sure if that's on Lobdell or not.


Also @Rise you mentioned not liking the victim blaming which I usually do as well, but with Lobdell I'm not really bothered about it because it is all from Jason's perception of himself, where there's enormous guilt, deserved because of his own actions and undeserved self-blame but is a by-effect of other people victim blaming him. I figure they'd kinda overlap and Jason will blame himself even for things that are not totally his fault.

On to my happy things. A lot obviously seeing as I enjoyed every issue of the Rebirth run and I've been openly excited about the solo run. But if I'm to pick a few that stands out, I'd say first is the introduction of the All-Caste. And second is how he's not only retained Jason's complexity but also written him as very pensive and emotionally aware. Is a trait not shared by many Bats.

----------


## Zaresh

> Is the "nutty red headed chick" is a reference to Jean from X-Men? Because this would be funny.


It's the only character that I can think it could be.




> I also prefer Winick's voice for Jason when it comes to humor and sarcasm.


This pretty much, but it's not like I dislike Lobdell voice either. I like it too, a lot, but I liked Winicks a little more.

I mostly agree with @G-Pots about everything. I would say Jason is more a planner than a tactician (he's good at tactics too, al bats are), and I think he should show Jason more under that light (that was implied with that whole One Man Assault in issue #26). I think he should show Jason caring more about people with problems that he comes across, more than go after big organizations all the time because he learns about some bit of information in a bat-y spy way. If he goes after them, he should go after finding out some problem with someone in his environment, in his daytime, or after some detective work. Build an epic from a sympathetic reaction to some small case; not going straight for a big epic crusade. I think it fits more Jason character, but I'm also biased, because I love that kind of narrative.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's the only character that I can think it could be.
> 
> 
> 
> This pretty much, but it's not like I dislike Lobdell voice either. I like it too, a lot, but I liked Winicks a little more.
> 
> I mostly agree with @G-Pots about everything. I would say Jason is more a planner than a tactician (he's good at tactics too, al bats are), and I think he should show Jason more under that light (that was implied with that whole One Man Assault in issue #26). I think he should show Jason caring more about people with problems that he comes across, more than go after big organizations all the time because he learns about some bit of information in a bat-y spy way. If he goes after them, he should go after finding out some problem with someone in his environment, in his daytime, or after some detective work. Build an epic from a sympathetic reaction to some small case; not going straight for a big epic crusade. I think it fits more Jason character, but I'm also biased, because I love that kind of narrative.


Ah yes, planner. I was trying to find a better word than tactician. I want to see a Jason that devises elaborate game plans like he did in UTRH and those Green Arrow issues. Only for a good cause this time. There's no reason to stop calculating and scheming like a boss just because you're a good guy now.

And I agree about him making connection with ordinary people or even small time criminals. It's also a plus if it shows that there are people who are in agreement, or even grateful for his way of dealing justice.

----------


## Jackalope89

Simple. Yet, very effective.

----------


## Jackalope89

Damian will never be able to look at Jason the same way again.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Aahz

> It's not dislike per se, and I'm not sure if it's Lobdell or it's the result of Jason's design aesthetic with dual guns but I used to wish he had his skillsets and fighting prowess as established by Winick back. Obviously with the new direction, it is coming back in some form. I'd still like to see a more tactical Jason.


I would also like to see his capabilities more showcased and better established. And him getting up against bigger villains.


EDIT:
I also think that Jasons whole legal situation (him being legally dead and a wanted criminal) is ignored to often, and that his secret identity should be more secret.

----------


## Jackalope89

So, back when Jason was Robin, Pre-Flashpoint history, how did he get along with Babs? And, after his initial return, how did the two view one another? If it was ever brought up?

----------


## oasis1313

> 


Thanks for this!!! It totally MADE MY DAY!!!!!!  It's SO Jason!

----------


## RedBird

I can't say for sure if it's him, but it certainly seems like Dexter Soy is cosplaying Jason here XD



_Hello Indonesia_

----------


## Jackalope89

So, I guess Jason had a soft spot for Raven. Though, even from Jason's own POV, he wasn't exactly close to her (or most of the Titans, for that matter). I guess being an Empath put her in his good graces at the time? And this was when Jason was at his most volatile.

----------


## Celgress

> 


don't indeed lol  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> I can't say for sure if it's him, but it certainly seems like Dexter Soy is cosplaying Jason here XD
> 
> 
> 
> _Hello Indonesia_


Looks like Soy already confirmed on twitter that it's him.   :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> Looks like Soy already confirmed on twitter that it's him.


This makes me happy.
Another fellow to this fellowship or us  :Wink:

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Jackalope89

Uh, guess Jason watched where he grabbed lady criminals after this point.



And a gift from Jason to Mongul.

----------


## oasis1313

> 


This is one of my all-time favorite Jason moments.  What's a kid in puberty going to think when he sees Wonder Woman for the first time?

----------


## Jackalope89

So, Jason as Red X II from the animated Teen Titans series. Thoughts?

Remember, its a different continuity from the main comics.

----------


## oasis1313

> So, Jason as Red X II from the animated Teen Titans series. Thoughts?
> 
> Remember, its a different continuity from the main comics.


When was this out?

----------


## Jackalope89

> When was this out?


Early to mid 2000s. Fun show. A lot of comedy, but also character arcs for the main characters and everything. Things like the Trigun Arc, dealing with Terra (though different from her comic version), expanding the Teen Titans... 

But Red X, originally donned by Dick Grayson Robin (he did make the suit), was stolen and then used by an unnamed character. Fought similarly to Robin, knew how to get passed the heavy security of not only the vault for the suit, but the tower itself, a thief, and despite being an antagonist most of the time towards the Titans, Robin in particular, he did have a code (he helped Robin get back an object stolen by Ding Dong Daddy).

----------


## oasis1313

> Early to mid 2000s. Fun show. A lot of comedy, but also character arcs for the main characters and everything. Things like the Trigun Arc, dealing with Terra (though different from her comic version), expanding the Teen Titans... 
> 
> But Red X, originally donned by Dick Grayson Robin (he did make the suit), was stolen and then used by an unnamed character. Fought similarly to Robin, knew how to get passed the heavy security of not only the vault for the suit, but the tower itself, a thief, and despite being an antagonist most of the time towards the Titans, Robin in particular, he did have a code (he helped Robin get back an object stolen by Ding Dong Daddy).


Not familiar with this.  Is it on DVD?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Not familiar with this.  Is it on DVD?


I believe so. Should also be on a number of streaming sites. And it is on DC Universe, if you have that.

----------


## oasis1313

> I believe so. Should also be on a number of streaming sites. And it is on DC Universe, if you have that.


I'll have to check that out.  Although I've been hoping to forget Ding Dong Daddy ever existed.

----------


## G-Potion

Jason meets Venom

http://ineedcats.tumblr.com/post/179526405218

----------


## Jackalope89

> Jason meets Venom
> 
> http://ineedcats.tumblr.com/post/179526405218


Venom doesn't know what its gotten itself into, lol. 


This is why Jason doesn't go to the circus anymore....

----------


## Celgress

> Venom doesn't know what its gotten itself into...


Indeed, Venom might actually be the reasonable one in this partnership lol.

----------


## Jackalope89

Aw, poor Biz. He'll have nightmares!

----------


## Jackalope89

Well Jay, you tried. Struck out, but tried.

----------


## oasis1313

> Well Jay, you tried. Struck out, but tried.


Jason is being very nice to offer the lady the top bunk.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Aw, poor Biz. He'll have nightmares!


Gosh I love inkydandy

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## G-Potion

http://tryinghero.tumblr.com/post/179602836100

When you link up with another dead robin out on patrol x

----------


## Jackalope89

I could see both doing Thriller just to mess with Damian a bit because its Halloween.

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason- Be back in a bit. I have an, "appointment" at Arkham.

----------


## Zaresh

> I could see both doing Thriller just to mess with Damian a bit because its Halloween.


Or Tim. Think of all the possibilities.

...

 :Big Grin: 
(Ok, maybe that would be a bit overkill for Tim)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Jensen Ackles dressed as Red Hood for Halloween

43914245_1088855334615418_2352381402831984698_n.jpg



https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpm20QNA...=1k9jujychqcgt

----------


## G-Potion

> Jensen Ackles dressed as Red Hood for Halloween
> 
> 43914245_1088855334615418_2352381402831984698_n.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpm20QNA...=1k9jujychqcgt


20 minutes in and the likes for this is crazy.

----------


## Jackalope89

Jensen REALLY liking Jay more and more. 

Think he could be pushing for a Red Hood series at some point? Not that I would complain.

----------


## G-Potion

More

----------


## G-Potion

The length of the jacket as well as the sleeves are just perfect. I don't know about the hoodie though.

----------


## Jackalope89

Dye his hair black and let it grow a tad longer (white streak optional), he'd be a shoe-in for Jason.

----------


## KurtW95

Jensen's costume is great. Though, I think at this point, he'd be a better fit for Bruce.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jensen Ackles dressed as Red Hood for Halloween
> 
> 43914245_1088855334615418_2352381402831984698_n.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpm20QNA...=1k9jujychqcgt


Oh. Oh. Oh.
Awesome.

----------


## Zaresh

> Dye his hair black and let it grow a tad longer (white streak optional), he'd be a shoe-in for Jason.


We can always just let his hair not be raven like. It wouldn't be a big change. He has green eyes, which isn't a thing Jason had but in his animation movie, I think.

----------


## Jackalope89

> We can always just let his hair not be raven like. It wouldn't be a big change. He has green eyes, which isn't a thing Jason had but in his animation movie, I think.


Barring someone like Starfire, whose eyes are blatantly green and what not, eye color isn't something I'm too particular about.

----------


## KurtW95

> Barring someone like Starfire, whose eyes are blatantly green and what not, eye color isn't something I'm too particular about.


That's never something movie studios have cared about. Going back to the Raimi Spider-Man movies and up to the guy playing Dick on Titans. Though, it wouldn't be that hard to get some colored contacts. That said, hair color is much more noticeable.

----------


## Zaresh

Mmmm... Coloured lenses are a mixed bag. Sometimes they hurt, sometimes they don't let the actors see well enough. It's the reason why Emilia didn't get colored lenses for Daenerys in GOT, and they ended up opting for digital coloring in close ups, and straight ignoring the colour issue in the other, less close shoots.

In the end, what really matters is if the actors can deliver a good take and be belieabable in their roles. Everything else tends to be forgiven, as far as I've seen.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That's never something movie studios have cared about. Going back to the Raimi Spider-Man movies and up to the guy playing Dick on Titans. Though, it wouldn't be that hard to get some colored contacts. That said, hair color is much more noticeable.


Pretty much. Besides which, its nearly impossible half the time to tell what a character's eyes are in comics. Unless, and like I noted before, its someone like Starfire.

----------


## Jackalope89

So, I'm to the point where whenever I read Jason, comics or fanfics, its with a bowery accent. A kid-version when he's Robin, but a deeper, somewhat rougher bowery accent as Red Hood. I know Damian mentions it in a panel, and as a kid from the streets from the North East US (Gotham is usually depicted in New Jersey or thereabouts), it does make sense.

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason _means_ well. But...

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason _means_ well. But...


I love this.  Now THIS is Jason to me.

----------


## RedBird

> Jensen Ackles dressed as Red Hood for Halloween
> 
> Attachment 73074
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpm20QNA...=1k9jujychqcgt


Yoooo, that is so freakin cool!  :Big Grin: 

I know Jensen's like 40 yrs old and all, but I think he makes for a pretty damn good _Older_ Red Hood fan cast.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yoooo, that is so freakin cool! 
> 
> I know Jensen's like 40 yrs old and all, but I think he makes for a pretty damn good _Older_ Red Hood fan cast.


Yeah, he's old, but after thinking about it, if we're going to have a 50-ish Bruce, and given that he looks like 5 years younger or more, he could still fit the age range.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yoooo, that is so freakin cool! 
> 
> I know Jensen's like 40 yrs old and all, but I think he makes for a pretty damn good _Older_ Red Hood fan cast.


Whoa--that is COOL!!!!!!  I hope Red Hood finds his way to a live-action TC series soon!!!!!

----------


## G-Potion

Almost a million likes and 20k+ comments after a day. Damn.

----------


## G-Potion

Well played lol.

http://ineedcats.tumblr.com/post/179662509528

----------


## G-Potion

https://heiibo.tumblr.com

----------


## Jackalope89

Makes you wonder how Artemis roped Jason into THAT one, lol.

----------


## G-Potion

> Makes you wonder how Artemis roped Jason into THAT one, lol.


With the Lasso of Submission you mean. :P

----------


## Zaresh

> Well played lol.
> 
> http://ineedcats.tumblr.com/post/179662509528


This one is very funny. A well played pun effect.

----------


## RedBird

Don't know if anyone mentioned this but the cover for issue #28 looks like it's been tweaked a bit.
Sorry for the image size, I couldn't find a larger version.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Here, the solicited cover and the final




As a tip, to see upcoming, finalized covers just look at the series page on Comixology's site. They tend to have new covers a week or so before release date.

----------


## G-Potion

Ah so we have a new colorist now. Both versions of the cover look equally good I think.

----------


## RedBird

> Ah so we have a new colorist now. Both versions of the cover look equally good I think.


Yeah I remember Woods mentioned not wanting to do any more colors after 27.

As for the covers, they both do look pretty good, both covers feature him injured, but the OG cover makes him seem more cornered and vulnerable by way of the composition and his defensive posture, where as the new one seems to give the impression that Jason is fighting back and that the violence inflicted on him is unleashing a more violent side, hence the almost animalistic gritted teeth revealed under the mask. All in all I think I like the new one, it suits the books direction more anyways.




> As a tip, to see upcoming, finalized covers just look at the series page on Comixology's site. They tend to have new covers a week or so before release date.


Ah, Coolies, thanks Dark

----------


## Zaresh

I dunno. I like the slightly more saturated towards red and cyan of the first one. And that white text of "murdertown" feels a bit unintegrated. But it's still a good cover, nonetheless. I'm bassically nipticking.

----------


## Sergard

I prefer the old cover because it was more subtle. If you don't pay enough attention you'll notice the blood on Jason's clothes only at second glance.

The new cover screams too much "violence" for my taste. And I'm not so fond of the sprinkled blood, especially on the sword. The colors are more harmonic on the old cover. I hope DC won't change the cover of #29. I like it as it is.

Edit: But it's funny that they gave the cover a more "brutal" look and then used pink for the title. That's the first time I even paid attention to the color of the title.

----------


## Sergard

Soy met Yasmine Putri (and Arif Prianto) at Indonesia Comic Con. And look what Putri is wearing.

Twitter: _With fellow artist Yasmine Putri and Arif Prianto during @IndoComicCon p.s. these guys are awesome_

----------


## Rise

> Here, the solicited cover and the final
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a tip, to see upcoming, finalized covers just look at the series page on Comixology's site. They tend to have new covers a week or so before release date.


Not happy about the change, the old cover was much better. 

If any cover need a change, it's the one for issue 30.

----------


## G-Potion

> Soy met Yasmine Putri (and Arif Prianto) at Indonesia Comic Con. And look what Putri is wearing.
> 
> Twitter: _With fellow artist Yasmine Putri and Arif Prianto during @IndoComicCon p.s. these guys are awesome_


Awww hell yeahhh!!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zaresh

> Soy met Yasmine Putri (and Arif Prianto) at Indonesia Comic Con. And look what Putri is wearing.
> 
> Twitter: _With fellow artist Yasmine Putri and Arif Prianto during @IndoComicCon p.s. these guys are awesome_


She has good taste.

----------


## Sergard

> Mama Bear Red Him.


Look what I found:
Source:_Diana meeting Jason for the first time._

----------


## Sergard

By the same artist. Source

----------


## Zaresh

Heh, out of all the Robins, it seems that the fandom likes him associated with the Amazons the most. More than even Tim, despite Cassie (or Dick and Donna, but eh...). Heck, they tend to like him associated with strong females, period. More than Dick despite having being paired in relationships with some strong women (Kori, Babs).

Kind of funny.
Not that I am against it or anything. I tend to favour that stuff (Hawkeye is definitely an Amazon chaser. And I like Mister Miracle and Big Barda a lot: they're cute and badass as heck).

----------


## Aahz

Tim and Dick have both their iconic love interests, Jason doesn't. 
And at least Dick had iirc in the comics never any romantic interest in any Amozon, while pre-crisis-Jasons frist question to Dick was what directly Wonder Girls is like.

Btw. is Cassie even an Amazon? At least the New 52 version doesn't seem to have much connections with them.

----------


## Jackalope89

Aw. Biz just wants to help out, lol.

But yeah. It actually seems about normal for Jason to be paired off with a strong woman. To be fair though, not sure anyone less could put up with the rather high-risk stuff they go through. Like morning workouts.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tim and Dick have both their iconic love interests, Jason doesn't. 
> And at least Dick had iirc in the comics never any romantic interest in any Amozon, while pre-crisis-Jasons frist question to Dick was what directly Wonder Girls is like.
> 
> Btw. is Cassie even an Amazon? At least the New 52 version doesn't seem to have much connections with them.


New 52 Cassie was the daughter of a demigod son of Zeus and a human woman, so she's a quarter Olympian and niece to Diana but to Amazons themselves I forgot. I think Diana only met her once or twice. I don't remember if their last meeting was her inviting Cassie to train with the Amazons or not. I already stopped paying attention by that time.

----------


## Zaresh

> Tim and Dick have both their iconic love interests, Jason doesn't. 
> And at least Dick had iirc in the comics never any romantic interest in any Amozon, while pre-crisis-Jasons frist question to Dick was what directly Wonder Girls is like.
> 
> Btw. is Cassie even an Amazon? At least the New 52 version doesn't seem to have much connections with them.


Technically, she's not, but she fits the trope to a certain extent.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Look what I found:
> Source:_Diana meeting Jason for the first time._


That's a good one! I can just see Bruce in the background muttering about HE'S Jason's parent. lol

----------


## oasis1313

> Aw. Biz just wants to help out, lol.
> 
> But yeah. It actually seems about normal for Jason to be paired off with a strong woman. To be fair though, not sure anyone less could put up with the rather high-risk stuff they go through. Like morning workouts.


I'm really getting into the idea of Jason and Artemis.  And Baby Bizarro makes three. :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I haven't seen the episode yet but seems that the Red Hood costume actually shows up in Supernatural's episode 4 of Season 14.

----------


## G-Potion

> I haven't seen the episode yet but seems that the Red Hood costume actually shows up in Supernatural's episode 4 of Season 14.


Saw a clip on Youtube. They make sure you get to see it for a good while and at different angles.  :Cool:

----------


## G-Potion

> By the same artist. Source


Ha, I love Biz's clueless expression. And Jason with an armful of Artemis's hair is just adorable.

----------


## G-Potion

It's nice to see Woods is just as enthusiastic about Red Hood as Soy has been.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zaresh

> It's nice to see Woods is just as enthusiastic about Red Hood as Soy has been.


Yes! It always makes me happy when I see how invested is some team member.

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk

----------


## Zaresh

> jjmk-jjmk


Damn fine piece of artwork. Loving the rendering of the colour especially. As usual.

----------


## Jackalope89

> jjmk-jjmk


Jason- You know pal, we're gonna change the world. Starting right here.
Slade- I'm still charging the full amount, pal or not.
Jason- I was talking to the gargoyle!

----------


## Shadowcat

Im currently collecting the Pre-Crisis Bat books from the 80s, and I just love Jason. He might be my favorite Robin. Doug Moench wrote him as a very sweet and tender hearted kid. Its a shame Batfans never warmed up to Jason. Although to be fair, post Crisis was not very kind to Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> I’m currently collecting the Pre-Crisis Bat books from the 80’s, and I just love Jason. He might be my favorite Robin. Doug Moench wrote him as a very sweet and tender hearted kid. It’s a shame Batfans never warmed up to Jason. Although to be fair, post Crisis was not very kind to Jason.


Off topic, but if you like Moench, try his Moon Knight.

----------


## Rise

> Im currently collecting the Pre-Crisis Bat books from the 80s, and I just love Jason. He might be my favorite Robin. Doug Moench wrote him as a very sweet and tender hearted kid. Its a shame Batfans never warmed up to Jason. Although to be fair, post Crisis was not very kind to Jason.


It's always nice to see some appreciation for that period. 




> It's nice to see Woods is just as enthusiastic about Red Hood as Soy has been.


That's good to hear. I admittedly started to get a little worried, but this giving me hope.

----------


## Sergard

> jjmk-jjmk


JJMK is like god's gift for Jason Todd fans that keeps on giving.

I still can't believe that Slade Wilson hasn't had a big appearance in the RHatO run so far. In the old run it was once hinted that he could pop up at some point - but he never did. Which is fine with me in that certain case because - if I remember correctly - it was mentioned that Deathstroke was paid by someone to eliminate the outlaws. I'm more interested in a story where Jason and Slade fight alongside each other. Like they did for one or two chapters in Deathstroke (New52).

Looking at things from that perspective it's a shame that Bruce wasn't able to throw Jason into Arkham. Jason could have met Slade there. On the other hand, Slade would have probably only made a snarky comment about the Penguin being still alive although Jason had shot him while standing right in front of him. And maybe Slade would have realized how strange that is but would not have cared in the end because it's none of his business.

----------


## G-Potion

> jjmk-jjmk


Ooh this maybe one of JJMK's most eye-catching pieces. That colors!!

----------


## G-Potion

> That's good to hear. I admittedly started to get a little worried, but this giving me hope.


If you don't mind me asking, which part of the new run got you worried?

----------


## Rise

The senseless violence. Jason seems to be violent just for the sake of it despite Lobdell saying that he wouldn't have Jason crossing the line unless he really has too.

Like Zaresh said, him going after the underlife seems like a crusade which I'm not happy about.

----------


## RedBird

> It's always nice to see some appreciation for that period.


Indeed, the 80s era is my personal favorite, it's what got me into comics in the first place.




> JJMK is like god's gift for Jason Todd fans that keeps on giving.


Their work is always so wonderful, and I'm so jealous of how quickly they pump out art, wish I could be that consistent and frequent with my work.




> I still can't believe that Slade Wilson hasn't had a big appearance in the RHatO run so far.


Same here, plus I'm still kinda saddened the Earth 2 idea of having Jason as Slade's apprentice never came to fruition, I think they would have made an interesting pair, perhaps even a cool darker contrast to the og dynamic duo.

----------


## Arsenal

> Look what I found:
> Source:_Diana meeting Jason for the first time._


I never knew that I needed an Elseworlds book of Jason being Dianas robin until this very moment.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The senseless violence. Jason seems to be violent just for the sake of it despite Lobdell saying that he wouldn't have Jason crossing the line unless he really has too.
> 
> Like Zaresh said, him going after the underlife seems like a crusade which I'm not happy about.


I think its more, now especially, to honor Roy's memory.

----------


## Shadowcat

> Off topic, but if you like Moench, try his Moon Knight.


Oh, I already own it. It could have been amazing to see Bill Sienkiewicz follow Doug over to the Bat books, but then we wouldn’t have the hauntingly beautiful runs by Gene Colan and Don Newton. 



> It's always nice to see some appreciation for that period.


Growing up, the Bronze Age is my favorite era, and I have a huge collection of comics that my older cousins gave me from this era. Unfortunately not much DC from here, because my cousins were more Marvel fans. I’ve been working on collecting titles that were being published from my birth to the end of Crisis, and have amassed quite a nice collection. Thus far I have both Action, Superman, the New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, and several others. They’re my new passion. Especially reading the metamorphosis of Catwoman, and seeing the fun Earth 2 tales, involving Robin, the Huntress, and even the Golden Age & Silver/Bronze Age Batmen in B&tB 200.

----------


## G-Potion

It's not Jason's birthday but this is too adorable.

http://aki4500199.lofter.com

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## G-Potion

Countdown team

http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/179...ree-characters

----------


## Jackalope89

Kyle-Took ya long enough.
Donna-Did you get into a fight again?
Jason- Nah. Biz just wanted a group hug.

----------


## oasis1313

> Kyle-Took ya long enough.
> Donna-Did you get into a fight again?
> Jason- Nah. Biz just wanted a group hug.


Jason, Donna, and Kyle--a new Outlaws team?

----------


## Zaresh

> Countdown team
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/179...ree-characters


It says something that despite being an awful event / book, that part about their teamup and multiverse adventures still produces new fanart.

----------


## K7P5V

> Jason, Donna, and Kyle--a new Outlaws team?


I would totally be up for this. Make it so.

----------


## Rise

> Countdown team
> 
> http://inkydandy.tumblr.com/post/179...ree-characters


Inky delivers like always. 

The challengers were a fun team and the only good thing about countdown. I wish we get a reunion with them someday.

----------


## oasis1313

> I would totally be up for this. Make it so.


It'd be hard to top Artemis and Bizarro.

----------


## K7P5V

> It'd be hard to top Artemis and Bizarro.


If you say so. But I guess anything would be better than what went on during the start of _The New 52_.

----------


## Jackalope89

So, for those of you familiar with it, how many think Jason could be Red X from Teen Titans?

Curiously enough, Red X actually pre-dates Red Hood Jason by several months.

----------


## K7P5V

> So, for those of you familiar with it, how many think Jason could be Red X from Teen Titans?
> 
> Curiously enough, Red X actually pre-dates Red Hood Jason by several months.


I love Red X. I hope someday he is incorporated into the main DC Universe. 

As for the identity of Red X, I thought it was a resurrected Grant Wilson. But your idea of Jason as Red X sounds better.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I love Red X. I hope someday he is incorporated into the main DC Universe. 
> 
> As for the identity of Red X, I thought it was a resurrected Grant Wilson. But your idea of Jason as Red X sounds better.


Well, Red X being Jason is the leading theory, and the show itself even had Beast Boy himself suggest it.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I love Red X. I hope someday he is incorporated into the main DC Universe.


Lobdell was going to introduce Red X in TT but editorial changed their minds at the last minute and he had to scrap the idea.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Lobdell was going to introduce Red X in TT but editorial changed their minds at the last minute and he had to scrap the idea.


That stinks, because it sounds like a fun idea! Could even have been Jason (with as much as Lobdell seems to like him) messing with the Titans just for the hell of it.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Rise



----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/nockuth

----------


## Zaresh

> https://twitter.com/nockuth


Ha! Jason goes moe kyun. This combo will always feel fun for me.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ha! Jason goes moe kyun. This combo will always feel fun for me.


What's with the feedbag look?  I've been seeing it a lot since Bucky Barnes came back.

----------


## Zaresh

> What's with the feedbag look?  I've been seeing it a lot since Bucky Barnes came back.


What's a feedbag look?

----------


## Restingvoice

> What's a feedbag look?


The Bucky mask. The muzzle. You put food in there to feed them... it's for a horse.

----------


## G-Potion

Looks like a mix of his current mask and the one in Batman Ninja to me.

----------


## Sergard

Look what I found on Reddit:

Red Hood: Outlaw #29 variant cover by Yasmine Putri

----------


## Zaresh

> The Bucky mask. The muzzle. You put food in there to feed them... it's for a horse.





> Looks like a mix of his current mask and the one in Batman Ninja to me.


Oh. In that case, no idea. I guess it's just a choice of the artist, for using a mask, but not a full covering one. Don't think it has anything to do with Bucky's in the Winter Soldier movie.




> Look what I found on Reddit:
> 
> Red Hood: Outlaw #29 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


Beautiful.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Look what I found on Reddit:
> 
> Red Hood: Outlaw #29 variant cover by Yasmine Putri


Jason- Hey aunt, what's up?
Kate- We've been over this, I'm technically not your aunt.
Jason- ....
Kate- I'm already stuck with it, aren't I?
Jason- Always knew you were the better detective.

----------


## oasis1313

> What's a feedbag look?


People who own horses put feed in the bottom of a leather bag that they put around the horse's head so it can eat out of the bag instead of grazing on grass or hay.  Often it's oats or barley in the feedbag, but a horse will just stand there and eat out of the bag as long as there's food in it.

----------


## G-Potion

Beautiful cover. Love Jason's pose. And I'm glad that the katana seems to be featured more and more.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason- Hey aunt, what's up?
> Kate- We've been over this, I'm technically not your aunt.
> Jason- ....
> Kate- I'm already stuck with it, aren't I?
> Jason- Always knew you were the better detective.


I'm liking all these scripts you've been coming up with. :P

----------


## AJpyro

ANyone get RHatO Rebirth Vol 4 yet? Just ordered mine.

----------


## Zaresh

> People who own horses put feed in the bottom of a leather bag that they put around the horse's head so it can eat out of the bag instead of grazing on grass or hay.  Often it's oats or barley in the feedbag, but a horse will just stand there and eat out of the bag as long as there's food in it.


No wonders I didn't know that word. I am all but a horse person, unfortunately. I have riden a very few times, like any tourist, when I was a kid. But it's just not the sort of thing I read or see everyday. Thanks.

----------


## Sergard

A little off topic but look how beautiful the Nightwing #54 variant cover (Yasmine Putri) is:


I'm even thinking about buying the issue just for the cover because it would look great next to the RHatO #26 variant:

----------


## Rise

Jason apparently will show up earlier than we thought in titans.

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/1...-in-new-photos

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason apparently will show up earlier than we thought in titans.
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/1...-in-new-photos


Oh, cool. I was actually hoping for him to pop up this new episode, because it would make sense for him to be peeked two episodes or so before his own one. So I'm glad they went that way.

----------


## kaimaciel

Yes!!! Time to start watching Titans! Fingers crossed for a good representation of Jay!

----------


## oasis1313

> Yes!!! Time to start watching Titans! Fingers crossed for a good representation of Jay!


Oh, wow!!!!!  I can't WAIT to see Jason !!!!!!  He looks like a total badass !!!!!!!!!!!  Hurry up, Friday !!!!!!!!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason apparently will show up earlier than we thought in titans.
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/1...-in-new-photos


Nice! I can't watch until it's on Netflix but I'm just as excited. Jason looks good in the stills.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yes!!! Time to start watching Titans! Fingers crossed for a good representation of Jay!


Honestly, after the first episode, which is pretty grimdark, it gets better.

----------


## Sergard

> ANyone get RHatO Rebirth Vol 4 yet? Just ordered mine.


I've pre-ordered my copy online a while ago but I'll probably wait until December to give my okay for shipping. There are some other pre-ordered titles that are released in November and I want to save shipping costs.
So you'll surely get your copy before I get mine.

I'm still a little surprised that DC used THAT cover. It was originally a variant cover, right?
At least I can hope now that DC will use one of Yasmine Putri's artworks for volume 5.

----------


## G-Potion

Aaand more fanart for Titans Jason.

http://gothampd.lofter.com/

----------


## G-Potion

http://backyard30.lofter.com

----------


## Restingvoice

He looks adorable with that messy hair

DrYaJl2WsAA_5z8.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> He looks adorable with that messy hair
> 
> DrYaJl2WsAA_5z8.jpg


Doesn't he, though?  I think it'll be cool if he's stone cold in a way Dick isn't--and Bruce doesn't anticipate.

----------


## G-Potion

> Doesn't he, though?  I think it'll be cool if he's stone cold in a way Dick isn't--and Bruce doesn't anticipate.


Yeah he can still be a sweet kid and at the same time has issues/different morality because of his upbringing. Bruce and Dick didn't see it coming because of how sweet he looks.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

New art by JJMK. (source)

----------


## G-Potion

Funny and utterly gorgeous. I love jjmk.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

By the way, how's Jason in Titans guys?

----------


## Zaresh

> By the way, how's Jason in Titans guys?


No idea. I cannot watch it until Sunday.
Darn it, Netflix, you had to just get the series for the whole batch, eh? Not fair  :Frown: .

In other news, sales for RHATO #26 put the book in the 24k numbers. Maybe with Bruce showing up in #27 we can hold those figures for a while. RHATO #25 was on 21k again, so the book has recovered some readers. And it seems like the Omni for Vol 1 is doing well? I think.

----------


## Rise

It went great going by people's excitement to it. He appeared last minute and the next episode is going to explore him more.

I'm just glad that Jason first debut in live action is him saving the day instead of being killed or being used as a villain.

----------


## G-Potion

Thanks guys. All good news.  :Smile:

----------


## Sergard

Is that the promo for the newest episode or for the next one?

----------


## ironman2978

> Is that the promo for the newest episode or for the next one?


The episode coming next week.

----------


## Sergard

@ironman2978: Thanks for the info.

CBR has posted an article about "For the Man Who Has Everything" story, including the first four pages.
And here are two pages that include Robin Jason. I like that Diana wants to help Jason to get up the fortress entrance on the second page, first panel.

----------


## G-Potion

Here goes. Hope this doesn't invite more complaints about NW book into this thread. And hey... Jason has a gun.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Hmm, so Jason is coming to Bludhaven. Gonna be interesting.

----------


## G-Potion

Seems like several Batfam members are in there. That looks like Batgirl behind Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> Here goes. Hope this doesn't invite more complaints about NW book into this thread. And hey... Jason has a gun.


Can say it surprises me. I was counting with some cameo like ghe one we had with TT (even if this one doesn't lead to a bigger story, like that one). DC is promoting him for the 3 jokers story, probably, and this is Lobdell who likes to do these cameos. Or it's him at least in part.

It will annoy some Dick fans, I'm counting with it. Those ones get annoyed almost by anything hese days, but it will probably please some other.

The girls looks more like Steph than Babs for me, the third person seems like a guy;  Tim maybe?

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason- Alright circus boy, no more stealing my schtick!
Ric- Who are you?
Jason- The one guy not afraid to knock you back to your senses. But seriously, being the street kid in touch with the "lower elements" is MY gig, golden boy!
Ric- You're... proud of that?

----------


## Badou

> Here goes. Hope this doesn't invite more complaints about NW book into this thread. And hey... Jason has a gun.


Yeah, Batgirl is also there (you can tell by her wearing the new Batgirl costume) so it is probably signaling the end of he Ric arc or its nearing its end. 

Can't wait to see Jason complain that Ric is stealing his look with him having a buzz cut, wearing a leather jacket, and is acting like the resident Batman family edgy guy, lol.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Zaresh

Oh, I see the batlogo now in that pic from Kirkman's insta. Yeah, it seems to be Barbara.
So at least we know that Jason is able to show in NW alongside Barbara. So maybe they're still in friendly working terms at that point? (this is in the future of RHATO's own timeline, is I'm not counting months wrong).

----------


## Arsenal

> Oh, I see the batlogo now in that pic from Kirkman's insta. Yeah, it seems to be Barbara.
> So at least we know that Jason is able to show in NW alongside Barbara. So maybe they're still in friendly working terms at that point? (this is in the future of RHATO's own timeline, is I'm not counting months wrong).


That looks like the Fox(?) logo, not the bat.

----------


## Sergard

I wouldn't mind if Jason took "Ric's jacket" after Dick is back to normal. Dick won't wear it anyway. And it's totally normal for siblings to "borrow" each other's clothes and sometimes to "forget" to give them back.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah, Batgirl is also there (you can tell by her wearing the new Batgirl costume) so it is probably signaling the end of he Ric arc or its nearing its end. 
> 
> Can't wait to see Jason complain that Ric is stealing his look with him having a buzz cut, wearing a leather jacket, and is acting like the resident Batman family edgy guy, lol.


Sorry to break it to you, but Lobdell has plans for at least a year of Ric stories.

Also, maybe I'm crazy but that hair in the front looks like Creeper's

----------


## Zaresh

> That looks like the Fox(?) logo, not the bat.


Too curved to be the fox, I think.




> I wouldn't mind if Jason took "Ric's jacket" after Dick is back to normal. Dick won't wear it anyway. And it's totally normal for siblings to "borrow" each other's clothes and sometimes to "forget" to give them back.


Please, don't hate me, but this could be hilarious. Imagine if Jason gets Ric's jacket: some people could complain about Jason stealing something from Dick. For real.




> Sorry to break it to you, but Lobdell has plans for at least a year of Ric stories.
> 
> *Also, maybe I'm crazy but that hair in the front looks like Creeper's*


I dunno. It seems like a long cut, and darker than Creeper's (it was green hair, right) You usually want to let that part white for colouring). I cannot even tell if it's a male or a female, to be honest. Seems a male cut, but...

EDIT: nevermind. You're right: it seems like that hairy fluffy furry stuff Creeper wears. It's not even hair, damn it. I'm blind.

----------


## Badou

> Sorry to break it to you, but Lobdell has plans for at least a year of Ric stories.
> 
> Also, maybe I'm crazy but that hair in the front looks like Creeper's


No chance it lasts a year. They are going to relaunch the Nightwing book next year some time I imagine. I still say once HiC is over they will probably relaunch it.

----------


## Alycat

Jason showing up in Bludhaven might be the most interesting thing happening in that book in forever, so I'm interested. Also dang the costume has really grown on me. The mask is still too MK like but it fits.

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason showing up in Bludhaven might be the most interesting thing happening in that book in forever, so I'm interested. Also dang the costume has really grown on me. The mask is still too MK like but it fits.


I dunno. I think the most interesting thing that happened in the current run NW was Hurt showing up (at least, it was most interesting for me until where I read). But then it was all for nothing. I suspect that was some kind of aborted arc.

----------


## Sergard

> That looks like the Fox(?) logo, not the bat.


We are still talking about Batgirl here, or? (The woman in the back.)




> Sorry to break it to you, but Lobdell has plans for at least a year of Ric stories.
> 
> Also, maybe I'm crazy but that hair in the front looks like Creeper's


I can't believe that either. Lobdell even stated in an interview that he's only temporary. A whole year doesn't sound temporary. And since Nightwing is bi-monthly, that would be 24 issues of Ric stories - that's a very long story arc. Even for Lobdell.

I already wondered whose hair that is. My guesses would have been Damian or Dick (including some artistic freedom of fast growing hair). But now that you mention Creeper - it looks like his furry cloak. And Lobdell seems to have some fascination with Creeper. But why should Creeper show up in Nightwing?

----------


## G-Potion

> Sorry to break it to you, but Lobdell has plans for at least a year of Ric stories.


Truly? I don't think I read that anywhere. Did you by any chance get to talk to Lobdell again?

----------


## G-Potion

http://orionfightsforearth.tumblr.com/post/179944333522

----------


## G-Potion

https://twitter.com/dori_yagi

----------


## Arsenal

> We are still talking about Batgirl here, or? (The woman in the back.)
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe that either. Lobdell even stated in an interview that he's only temporary. A whole year doesn't sound temporary. And since Nightwing is bi-monthly, that would be 24 issues of Ric stories - that's a very long story arc. Even for Lobdell.
> 
> I already wondered whose hair that is. My guesses would have been Damian or Dick (including some artistic freedom of fast growing hair). But now that you mention Creeper - it looks like his furry cloak. And Lobdell seems to have some fascination with Creeper. But why should Creeper show up in Nightwing?


Oh my bad. I completely misinterpreted who you were talking about.

----------


## RedBird

> It went great going by people's excitement to it. He appeared last minute and the next episode is going to explore him more.
> 
> I'm just glad that Jason first debut in live action is him saving the day instead of being killed or being used as a villain.


Exactly, I love that the very first impression is actually of his early time as Robin.  :Smile: 

Still heartbroken that I can't watch the show for myself just yet, been watching bits and pieces on youtube as well as weekly reviews, but so far the show seems to be getting better if the public reaction is anything to go by, with the latest episode being the best thus far. (at least from what I can gather from youtube reactions and reviews)

Anyone seen his intro on youtube btw, or from the episode itself? What yall think?

----------


## G-Potion

> Anyone seen his intro on youtube btw, or from the episode itself? What yall think?


I'd love to, but I'm saving it for when I can watch the whole thing on Netflix. I did see gifs on Tumblr though. That smirk is so on point. And I love how in some other scenes, on the contrary, he looks very vulnerable as well.

----------


## Arsenal

> Exactly, I love that the very first impression is actually of his early time as Robin. 
> 
> Still heartbroken that I can't watch the show for myself just yet, been watching bits and pieces on youtube as well as weekly reviews, but so far the show seems to be getting better if the public reaction is anything to go by, with the latest episode being the best thus far. (at least from what I can gather from youtube reactions and reviews)
> 
> Anyone seen his intro on youtube btw, or from the episode itself? What yall think?


I think it was great.

----------


## Sergard

Bleedingcool posted "The 100 Most-Ordered Comics & Graphic Novels in October 2018".
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-october-2018/

Red Hood: Outlaw #27 is rank 83. (RHatO #26 was rank 90 in September.)

And regarding graphic novels, RHatO Vol. 4 is rank 35. (I have no idea if this is good, bad or neutral.)

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Celgress

> 


indeed he does lol  :Cool:

----------


## Sergard

> 


Which issue is that from? Seems to be Jason's Red Hood/Arsenal design, and it looks really nice here. Although the helmet is a little strange, and the neck part would look better in black instead of red.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Which issue is that from? Seems to be Jason's Red Hood/Arsenal design, and it looks really nice here. Although the helmet is a little strange, and the neck part would look better in black instead of red.


Batman Eternal, I believe.

----------


## Jackalope89

Scratch that. It was when Bruce lost his memories of being Batman. I can never keep these arc names right.

Also, unrelated, but is there anyone in the Bat mythos about Jason's age?

----------


## Restingvoice

> Which issue is that from? Seems to be Jason's Red Hood/Arsenal design, and it looks really nice here. Although the helmet is a little strange, and the neck part would look better in black instead of red.


Batman/Superman #26 during the Superman Truth-Injustice-Savage Dawn arc. In the absence of Bruce who was amnesia at the time, Batgirl, Red Hood and Grayson helped Clark set up a trap for Vandal Savage's horde.

----------


## Aahz

> Also, unrelated, but is there anyone in the Bat mythos about Jason's age?


Pre Flashpoint he and Cassandra were roughly the same age. 

Post Flashpoint (and post Rebirth) it is hard to since we don't really know the Jasons age, but the only character that I can think of, who is also in the Gap between the Dick/Barbara-generation and the Tim/Steph-generation is James Jr. (Barbaras younger Brother). Cass seems now supposed to be around Tim's or younger.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Pre Flashpoint he and Cassandra were roughly the same age. 
> 
> Post Flashpoint (and post Rebirth) it is hard to since we don't really know the Jasons age, but the only character that I can think of, who is also in the Gap between the Dick/Barbara-generation and the Tim/Steph-generation is James Jr. (Barbaras younger Brother). Cass seems now supposed to be around Tim's or younger.


Great. So the only one within the same age group is a certified psychopath with a sister complex (in a more twisted way than usual). 

Kind of like that Robin II and Batgirl II were about the same age. Though, the two haven't ever really interacted much from what I can tell. Which is kind of a shame.

----------


## babybats

> Great. So the only one within the same age group is a certified psychopath with a sister complex (in a more twisted way than usual). 
> 
> Kind of like that Robin II and Batgirl II were about the same age. Though, the two haven't ever really interacted much from what I can tell. Which is kind of a shame.


I never thought of a Cass&Jason team up before but I desperately want it now.

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> Pre Flashpoint he and Cassandra were roughly the same age. 
> 
> Post Flashpoint (and post Rebirth) it is hard to since we don't really know the Jasons age, but the only character that I can think of, who is also in the Gap between the Dick/Barbara-generation and the Tim/Steph-generation is James Jr. (Barbaras younger Brother). Cass seems now supposed to be around Tim's or younger.


Pre Tim's inability to age, Jason was two years older than Tim. He was 12 when Bruce found him, spent half a year in training and then had a one year aging up before his death. That's all post crisis, street kid Jason. He officially died right after his 15th birthday. Tim became Robin six months later at 13. There's a scene where Bruce takes Cass to Jason's grave after Tim's 16th birthday arc and tells her Jason would be 18 today and how he's just like Stephanie and that's why they need to cut Steph off. I can't remember which comic it was, but it was part of the standard Bruce is a horrible person thing that was going on at the time.

In Zero Year Tim was on panel as being 11, Jason told Talia he was 15 to which she laughed and said he was 12 or 13. So given that 7-10 years have passed on paper in universe Jason is 22-23 as he was two years older than Tim at the start of the reboot. As I understand it, Cass and Steph were 13/14 at the start of Eternal, the Row twins were 17 (age of emancipation), and Tim was 16. Jason is shown being old enough to drink, but might still be 20 as he's spent years in countries where the drinking age is 16-18. One year passes during Eternal, Damian is resurrected towards the end of that year. During that time Damian spends a day at Gotham Academy and then takes off. Superheavy happens once Damian heads out for the year of redemption. Robin War happens at the end of that year, Damian turns 12. Batman and Robin Eternal happens over about two weeks, Tim is established as 16 when Jason offers to buy him a drink to Jason's confusion. Bruce regains his memories. A year passes off panel except for a few flashbacks shown and what we see in All Star Batman. Rebirth happens. Damian turns 13 on panel. Tim is 16. Dick spent approximately 3 years as a spy, Jason being the most normal member of the family, has aged accordingly and is now in his early twenties and could be legally drinking in bars if he wasn't legally dead.

Future's End was set 5 years after Damian's death, Tim was on panel as 21, Jason appeared to have been 23-24, Barbara was around 30, Dick was 29-30 and died. 

Admittedly it's all very confusing because Tim should have been 19 in Red Robin and should be 20 in current continuity but he's 16-17. Or maybe 15. In other words, standard soap opera rules about aging apply.

----------


## Konja7

I don't think Cassandra and Stephanie are 13/14 at the start of Eternal. They should be around Tim's age (16). Of course, Tim's age can be reduced at any time.

At this point, it can be pretty difficult to know the age of Jason, since the age of the others characters is a mess.

----------


## Badou

> Also, unrelated, but is there anyone in the Bat mythos about Jason's age?


Well Dick and Jason since the reboot are only like a couple years apart now. I don't think that has changed any.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well Dick and Jason since the reboot are only like a couple years apart now. I don't think that has changed any.


Prior though, weren't they more like 6 years apart?

----------


## Badou

> Prior though, weren't they more like 6 years apart?


Probably even more than 6 pre reboot depending on what end of late 20s you want to say Dick was at the time. It was a sizable gap but now I think it is 2 years at most.

----------


## Zaresh

If I recall correctly, pre Flashpoint Dick was seven years older than Jason, and Tim was almost two years younger than Jason. But honestly, I wouldn't give it too much of a thought. Making sense of ages in a fictional universe written by dozens of authors, even with some editors work behind, is a lost war at this point with all these reboots and retconnings and all. At least, given them a specific age. It works better if you just given each one an age range.

----------


## G-Potion

> Bleedingcool posted "The 100 Most-Ordered Comics & Graphic Novels in October 2018".
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-october-2018/
> 
> Red Hood: Outlaw #27 is rank 83. (RHatO #26 was rank 90 in September.)
> 
> And regarding graphic novels, RHatO Vol. 4 is rank 35. (I have no idea if this is good, bad or neutral.)


Good news. Hope the momentum continues for a while.

----------


## Aahz

> He officially died right after his 15th birthday. Tim became Robin six months later at 13.


Thats not really official. The 15 is from "The: Batman Files" which is imo hardly a canon source. 
With Jason starting as Robin at age 12, and the canon dates for his birth and Death, the most sense makes imo that he died 4 month before his 14th Birthday (which would him make only 1 year older than Tim).

----------


## Rise

It was from Jason's death certificate which was used in Batman UTRH arc so this make it canon that he was 15 when he died (and before you start, I know they didn't show the age since they only showed half of the certificate. The point is, they still used it from Batman files which make it canon). 

And since Tim officially become 16 shortly before Bruce visit to Jason's grave on his 18 birthday, I think it safe to say that Jason was indeed 2 years older than Tim in pre-flashpoint.

----------


## Aahz

> It was from Jason's death certificate which was used in Batman UTRH arc so this make it canon that he was 15 when he died (and before you start, I know they didn't show the age since they only showed half of the certificate. The point is, they still used it from Batman files which make it canon).
> 
> And since Tim officially become 16 shortly before Bruce visit to Jason's grave on his 18 birthday, I think it safe to say that Jason was indeed 2 years older than Tim in pre-flashpoint.


I don't really see how a death certificate in one books, makes the one in the other canon. Both certificates don't even look the same. And Jason's Height and Weight in that certificate are complete nonsense, so why should the age be more reliable?

On top of that, based on the certificate Jason is born in August and died in April, which would make him 3 year older than Tim.

And if you have Jason becoming Robin at age 12, he would have been Robin for 3-4 years, which also doesn't really work with the timeline. 

And by the rough timeline for Jason resurrection and training from the Annual were the certificate is shown, there is him being 15 when he died also doesn't really work with his 18th Birthday.

If you end up with Jason being one or two years older than Tim, depends if you go by the sources from the 2000s or the ones from the 80s.
In the 80s comics Dick was 19 when Jason became Robin at age 12 and iirc 21 when Tim became Robin at age 13. Which adds up to Jason being only one year older. (And it is also possible to make the argument that Jason is actually the same age as Tim, since Jason was still in 7th Grade after 10 Nights of the Beast.)

----------


## Rise

They looked pretty similar to me since they both stated that Jason died on 27th of April so this make it canon enough from me. Plus, you really tend to overthinking timeline more than any worker in DC ever did and nothing of what you say convinced me about why it's impossible for Jason to be older than Tim by 2 years and that he died in 15.

So, let's agree to disagree since neither me or you going to agree on something.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The outlaw is paying off

83. RED HOOD OUTLAW #27 (DC) - 30,343 [91]

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html

----------


## Zaresh

@Aahz, why wouldn't make sense for Jason to have been Robin for 3 years in the pre-FP continuity? I thought that him being Robin for 3 years was pretty much the time most people have agreed with: fron 12 (the letter from the writer I mentioned) to 15 and maybe a half (those files). I'm curious.

BTW, as far as I have seen, most of these infobits we always work with are usually from side material and infered info guessed from not canonical stories. You rarely, rarely get actual detailed info from the actual main line comics because, I guess, as I said, continuity is a bit of a messy land to walk through. Understable.




> The outlaw is paying off
> 
> 83. RED HOOD OUTLAW #27 (DC) - 30,343 [91]
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


Yaaaayyy!

----------


## G-Potion

> The outlaw is paying off
> 
> 83. RED HOOD OUTLAW #27 (DC) - 30,343 [91]
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


Good numbers! Yaaay!

----------


## Aahz

> @Aahz, why wouldn't make sense for Jason to have been Robin for 3 years in the pre-FP continuity? I thought that him being Robin for 3 years was pretty much the time most people have agreed with: fron 12 (the letter from the writer I mentioned) to 15 and maybe a half (those files). I'm curious.


It doesn't line up with the overall timeline:
- Dick only aged from 19 to 21 in that time for example
- Jason was still only in 7th Grade after 10 Nights of the Beast (and there are only about 5 issues between 10 Nights of the  Beast and DitF)
- Most official timelines even compress his time as Robin down to one year




> BTW, as far as I have seen, most of these infobits we always work with are usually from side material and infered info guessed from not canonical stories. You rarely, rarely get actual detailed info from the actual main line comics because, I guess, as I said, continuity is a bit of a messy land to walk through. Understable.


Thats depends really on the charater, for some the ages are quite regularly mentioned (Tim and Damian for example), for Jason for there is for some reason not much info.

And that actually also the main point I wanted to make, for the pre flashpoint continuity, there is not really hard canonic information about how old Jason was when he became Robin and when he died. As someone who tends "to overthinking timeline more than any worker in DC ever did" (just look here), I can tell you that the information contradictory and you have in the end decide for your self what  is the most plausible answer. But thats in the end of the day a personal head canon, and not canon.

----------


## Aahz

> The outlaw is paying off
> 
> 83. RED HOOD OUTLAW #27 (DC) - 30,343 [91]
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


A lot of DC Comics increased in sales in October, does anyone know why?

Btw. is there still no preview for the next issue?

----------


## Sergard

> A lot of DC Comics increased in sales in October, does anyone know why?
> 
> Btw. is there still no preview for the next issue?


Maybe because of the foil covers?

And no preview so far. At least I haven't found one.

----------


## Zaresh

> Maybe because of the foil covers?
> 
> And no preview so far. At least I haven't found one.


What foil covers? You mean, the variant covers in monochrome colours? (where the physical issues in foil? that's cool)

I think it too had a bit to do with not many big events having an issue or two at the same time, as well as some books that ended, plus the kind-of-but-not-really reboot that made the sales go a bit up the month before.  Besides whatever additional sales those variants gave.

A bunch of coincidences happening at the same time, maybe?

----------


## Jackalope89

Don't play catch with Jay's helmet! Playing catch with Jay himself though...

----------


## Sergard

> What foil covers? You mean, the variant covers in monochrome colours? (where the physical issues in foil? that's cool)


The "variant covers in monochrome colours" were the standard covers = foil covers. The physical issues had a metallic look to it. Here is a list of all titles with a foil standard cover in October. Deathstroke, for example, didn't have a foil cover. Maybe that's the reason why the October issue is so low ranked compared to other titles. (And probably because the Batman arc is over.)

----------


## Zaresh

> *The "variant covers in monochrome colours" were the standard covers = foil covers.* The physical issues had a metallic look to it. Here is a list of all titles with a foil standard cover in October. Deathstroke, for example, didn't have a foil cover. Maybe that's the reason why the October issue is so low ranked compared to other titles. (And probably because the Batman arc is over.)


I guess I'm so used to like the variant better than the standard that I just think any cool cover is a variant :_D
So the cover did make some notable impact in the numbers. Huh, funny.

----------


## Sergard

In the case of RHatO #27, I still preferred Yasmine Putri's variant cover over the black and red themed foil cover with the bloody crowbar. And personally, I think the standard cover would have looked better without the foil. The metallic shine reduced the contrast between the black and red colors. But that's a more minor complain from my side.

There are probably comic fans/collectors who wanted all foil covers. And as a consequence, many DC titles rose in rank.

That's why I'm interested in how RHatO #28 will do. Realistically, the numbers will probably be around the September sales.

----------


## G-Potion

First look at Jason in 1x06

----------


## G-Potion



----------


## oasis1313

It looks great!  I'm excited that Jason is coming to the silver screen in a live-action show.

----------


## Jackalope89

> 


Dick- So, how'd he find you?
Jason- Caught me stealing the Batmobile's tires.
Dick- You were trying to steal the tires?
Jason- Caught me on the 4th one.
Dick-

----------


## Rise

A promo for Jason in preparation for his episode this Friday. 

https://twitter.com/DCUTitans/status...368366592?s=20

Plus he was included in the new Titans promo released today.

----------


## Jackalope89

He looks a LOT younger than 20, I'll say that.

Though if, and when, they plan to do Red Hood, that may be a slight issue. As at that point, Jason is supposed to be BIGGER than Dick.

----------


## Zaresh

> He looks a LOT younger than 20, I'll say that.
> 
> Though if, and when, they plan to do Red Hood, that may be a slight issue. As at that point, Jason is supposed to be BIGGER than Dick.


He's supposed to be a teenager. It's good if he doesn't look 20.
And Dicks actor is rather tall, I think.

With life action adaptations, personally, I wouldn't worry much how they look as far as they are believable in their roles, or the take on the character that those adaptations go for. You can make a short guy threatening in a movie or a tv series without relying in their height: a reasonable amount of work on visuals (editing), make-up and costume and the magic is done.

----------


## G-Potion

I found some more photos of the Hiya Toy's Red Hood. That bomb he has is pretty neat.

http://www.verotoys.com.mx/template/...em_id=VT001829

----------


## RedBird

> He looks a LOT younger than 20, I'll say that.
> 
> Though if, and when, they plan to do Red Hood, that may be a slight issue. As at that point, Jason is supposed to be BIGGER than Dick.


Yeah the dude looks super young, in the case of Red Hood, I think that might be an issue, I'm hoping for a recast if the show gets that far, but for now I think the fact that he is 20 and looks 15 - 16, (maybe even a 'television' 13 - 14, if you get what I mean) is kinda perfect.
Who knows, maybe theres plans to keep Jason as Robin around for a little longer than we might expect, after all the crew dont have to worry about the kid aging on screen since he's an adult.

----------


## Sergard

> 


How old is Raven in the series?
I don't ship them but I have to admit that Raven and Jason look cute together in the pic.

----------


## RedBird

> How old is Raven in the series?
> I don't ship them but I have to admit that Raven and Jason look cute together in the pic.


They kinda do, but the show can't really 'go there' regardless. 

Not 100% but I assumed that both she, Jason, and maybe Beast Boy are meant to be minors, at least within the Titans universe, which is fine. However the actors playing beast boy and Jason are adults, whereas the actor playing Raven is actually only 14, possibly even 13 at the time of the shows season 1 shoot. I think I remember people claiming that due to the age difference the show is avoiding any heavy implications of Raven/Beast Boy straight up shipping content that people may have been expecting. 

Again though, not 100% about that. Maybe there are ways they can get around the fact, or imply a relationship but I think they might just avoid such controversy altogether, in fact I think I would prefer it that way.

Edit: also I just realised they look like a typical grunge/punk boyfriend and grunge/goth gf duo. Haha

----------


## G-Potion

> How old is Raven in the series?
> I don't ship them but I have to admit that Raven and Jason look cute together in the pic.


My thought too. I have never shipped them but man do they look good together in this shot.

----------


## Jackalope89

> My thought too. I have never shipped them but man do they look good together in this shot.


The guy playing Jason is 20. The girl playing Raven is 13-14. So, that's a no-go.

Also, the guy playing Gar is 24. So, that's a no-go as well.

----------


## G-Potion

> The guy playing Jason is 20. The girl playing Raven is 13-14. So, that's a no-go.
> 
> Also, the guy playing Gar is 24. So, that's a no-go as well.


I'm fine with that. Even if they look good in that shot, I'm pretty much a non-shipper in general.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The guy playing Jason is 20. The girl playing Raven is 13-14. So, that's a no-go.
> 
> Also, the guy playing Gar is 24. So, that's a no-go as well.


Not that I particularly care about shipping, but what does it matter the age of the *actors* when talking about pairing the *characters* together?

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm fine with that. Even if they look good in that shot, I'm pretty much a non-shipper in general.


Same here.




> Not that I particularly care about shipping, but what does it matter the age of the *actors* when talking about pairing the *characters* together?


Because, acting or not, certain lines should be left uncrossed.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Because, acting or not, certain lines should be left uncrossed.


What lines? The characters are teenagers themselves so is perfectly fine for them to be paired together if fans/the writers wish to do that. The actual age of the actors is irrelevant.

----------


## Sergard

> What lines? The characters are teenagers themselves so is perfectly fine for them to be paired together if fans/the writers wish to do that. The actual age of the actors is irrelevant.


It's relevant. If I were a minor and had to play couple with an adult I would be creeped out. Regardless from said adult playing a minor. And I don't think that the adult in this case feels any different.
If the writers of the series want to have Raven in a relationship with another character they should have hired an older actress or a younger actor.

----------


## oasis1313

> The guy playing Jason is 20. The girl playing Raven is 13-14. So, that's a no-go.
> 
> Also, the guy playing Gar is 24. So, that's a no-go as well.


And Brenton is in his 30's?  He's totally the Dorm Daddy.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's relevant. If I were a minor and had to play couple with an adult I would be creeped out. Regardless from said adult playing a minor. And I don't think that the adult in this case feels any different.
> If the writers of the series want to have Raven in a relationship with another character they should have hired an older actress or a younger actor.


I mean, adults playing teenagers have been a thing since TV is a thing so, I find utterly ridiculous to get upset at people playing a romantic role or fans indulging on romantic fantasies with their characters. They're romancing the characters, not, the actors themselves.

----------


## oasis1313

She might be an actress but she's still 13.  Romantic fantasies can wait until she's no longer jail bait.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> She might be an actress but she's still 13.  Romantic fantasies can wait until she's no longer jail bait.


Good thing is the character what is in question here, not the actress.

----------


## G-Potion

Interview with Curran Walters. Start around the 42 minute mark.

----------


## Konja7

> She might be an actress but she's still 13.  Romantic fantasies can wait until she's no longer jail bait.


As the actress is 13, it would be uncomfortable. So, I don't want a ship with Raven at this moment. 

That said, I saw ships on TV series, where the characters has the same age, but an actress is 16, while the actor of her romantic interest is around 20. I don't know if that's common or not.

----------


## RedBird

> Interview with Curran Walters. Start around the 42 minute mark.


Cool! It even has a preview for episode 6 and _oh noooooo_. It's cute.

Seriously though, I'm liking pretty much everything I'm hearing from both the creators of the show and Curran himself, I really like that they seem to be (from what I can gather) emphasizing the innocence of the character. Like yeah he has a chip on his shoulder, but ultimately he is just stoked to be Robin.

----------


## G-Potion

I know right! I'm trying to save it for the Netflix show but this preview is just too good, that little skip he does, _wow_, haha. And hearing Curran talk, I know I will just love his Jason Todd.

----------


## Zaresh

Jason as Robin being cute, and happy, and innocent? Some people is going to be mad he's not hateable enough. I just... feel it in the Water, I feel it in the Earth, I smell it in the Air.

Edit: ha ha ha.The actor was so exited he just spoilered Jason's beating despite them going around to not spoil the thing. It didn't look scripted, it seemed genuine. That was... warm.

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason as Robin being cute, and happy, and innocent? Some people is going to be mad he'snot hateable enough. I just... feel it in the Water, I feel it in the Earth, I smell it in the Air.


Maybe it will come later, but for now all I'm seeing is people cooing at baby Jason. Who's the grumpy robin now?  :P

----------


## oasis1313

Curran is PERFECT to play Jason!

----------


## Zaresh

> Maybe it will come later, but for now all I'm seeing is people cooing at baby Jason. Who's the grumpy robin now?  :P


Me ^.^U

Good to hear that I'm wrong.

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe it will come later, but for now all I'm seeing is people cooing at baby Jason. Who's the grumpy robin now?  :P


After watching that interview, I would say that Dick Grayson is DEFINITELY the Grumpy Robin in this universe.  I hope this opens the field for Curran to reach Red Hood status one of these days.

----------


## RedBird

> After watching that interview, I would say that Dick Grayson is DEFINITELY the Grumpy Robin in this universe.  I hope this opens the field for Curran to reach Red Hood status one of these days.


Which is fair, between his departure from the Bat, the new bad guys I've seen and the conflict its causing for all these new team mates, having a replacement on top of that seems to be getting to him, every Robin is at least grumpy during their transition out of the role. I like that you can already see the tension from Dick, and poor Jason seems just a tad oblivious to it, or is ignoring Dick's discomfort altogether to pretend otherwise, hard to tell for now. The relationship thus far is pretty much summed up by that fist bump, Jasons all excited and happy and Dick is just like ...-_-...reeeaally hesitant, but you know, not _that much_ of a Dick to leave the poor kid hanging either.  :Stick Out Tongue: 


Also, weird thing to focus on, I know, but I was wondering around the end of that clip why Jason jumped and threw his hands up while he was running back the way they came. I thought it was some kind of cheesy lil huzzah, or fist bump to the sky. I just realized he jumped to touch the parking structure ceiling. Okay fine, touche Titans, jumping to prove you can reach tall structures/signs/ceilings etc does seem like something Jason would do. XD

----------


## RedBird

Arkham Knight Making His Comic Debut in Detective Comics' 1000th Issue 

Ummmmmmmmm

SO I'm guessing it's not gonna be Jason?

----------


## RedBird

ketchup0212

----------


## G-Potion

> Arkham Knight Making His Comic Debut in Detective Comics' 1000th Issue 
> 
> Ummmmmmmmm
> 
> SO I'm guessing it's not gonna be Jason?


Well if it's out of continuity then he could still be Jason. But with the creative team revealed so far... well I'm not holding my breath for a flattering portrayal. Not that the option to let someone else be Arkham Knight is any better. It would be strange too, if DC is trying to promote Jason and then lets someone else steal one of his aliases. :/

----------


## oasis1313

> Well if it's out of continuity then he could still be Jason. But with the creative team revealed so far... well I'm not holding my breath for a flattering portrayal. Not that the option to let someone else be Arkham Knight is any better. It would be strange too, if DC is trying to promote Jason and then lets someone else steal one of his aliases. :/


DC needs to PROMOTE Jason.  This looks like The Signal in a stealth costume.

----------


## Armor of God

> Well if it's out of continuity then he could still be Jason. But with the creative team revealed so far... well I'm not holding my breath for a flattering portrayal. Not that the option to let someone else be Arkham Knight is any better. It would be strange too, if DC is trying to promote Jason and then lets someone else steal one of his aliases. :/


It appears that he will be part of the main feature. Tomasi did promise a big villain reveal. So it would be unlikely to be set out of continuity. I'll also repost some of my thoughts from the Tec 1000 thread:

Maybe it'll end up being similar to the comics Prometheus and Arrowverse Prometheus situation. Maybe Tomasi's Arkham Knight will be someone with legitimate history tied to Arkham, possibly similar to the Lady Arkham character from the Telltale games. So maybe Tomasi will abandon the militia angle and the evil Batman appearance.
And technically Jason stole another alias in the form of Red Hood. Its associated with both him and Joker now. There are also about a dozen Clayfaces, so its not unprecedented.
But its an uphill battle to get the the new character to really own the role admittedly. As I mentioned above it would be wiser to abandon the militia angle and militaristic Batman aesthetic in favor of something that really comes from Arkham keeping the detective tone that Tomasi seems to be going for over the big action tone. They already have Bane and even Deathstroke for the militant angle.
Jason was never really a product of Arkham and certainly was not its Knight. The alias was created for branding purposes.

----------


## G-Potion

> It appears that he will be part of the main feature. Tomasi did promise a big villain reveal. So it would be unlikely to be set out of continuity. I'll also repost some of my thoughts from the Tec 1000 thread:
> 
> Maybe it'll end up being similar to the comics Prometheus and Arrowverse Prometheus situation. Maybe Tomasi's Arkham Knight will be someone with legitimate history tied to Arkham, possibly similar to the Lady Arkham character from the Telltale games. So maybe Tomasi will abandon the militia angle and the evil Batman appearance.
> And technically Jason stole another alias in the form of Red Hood. Its associated with both him and Joker now. There are also about a dozen Clayfaces, so its not unprecedented.
> But its an uphill battle to get the the new character to really own the role admittedly. As I mentioned above it would be wiser to abandon the militia angle and militaristic Batman aesthetic in favor of something that really comes from Arkham keeping the detective tone that Tomasi seems to be going for over the big action tone. They already have Bane and even Deathstroke for the militant angle.
> Jason was never really a product of Arkham and certainly was not its Knight. The alias was created for branding purposes.


It depends on reasons and context of course. In the case of Red Hood, Jason as a character wasn't created to take that mantle away from Joker, there's a progression leading up to that point, and the legacy of Red Hood as well as Joker's association with it still remains. We don't know how AK will be handled, but like you said, if the militaristic angle and aesthetic remains, the character is still called Arkham Knight, then for a considerable part it's just straight-up rip-off, giving to a new character while removing the connection/brand from the first owner. In the games' continuity, Jason as the Knight was a product of Arkham so his ownership of the alias is not trivial but would be  now because someone in main continuity takes it. This is not unprecedented of course, doesn't make it a welcome change to me personally.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Arkham Knight Making His Comic Debut in Detective Comics' 1000th Issue 
> 
> Ummmmmmmmm
> 
> SO I'm guessing it's not gonna be Jason?


Good, the Arkham Knight is a terrible concept.

----------


## G-Potion

> Good, the Arkham Knight is a terrible concept.


It did help with Jason's overall popularity, especially to non comics fans, it has a good design that people would want as an alt costume in games and as merchandise. So, branding-wise, it's a loss if it's removed from him.

----------


## Rise

This is the reason why I'm not happy at all that Tomasi taking over Tec. He has nothing new to bring to the book. Another story about Batman mourning his parents and now he is bringing AK after Tynion done his own version of AK.

Not to mention his terrible characterization of Batman at top of that.

----------


## Rise

> It did help with Jason's overall popularity, especially to non comics fans, it has a good design that people would want as an alt costume in games and as merchandise. So, branding-wise, it's a loss if it's removed from him.


It's always going to be associated to Jason since it was introduced in a very popular game that sold more than any comic.

----------


## Agent Z

Why Jason Todd Is The Most Important Robin
by Princess Weekes  

https://www.themarysue.com/jason-tod...portant-robin/

----------


## Armor of God

> This is the reason why I'm not happy at all that Tomasi taking over Tec. He has nothing new to bring to the book. Another story about Batman mourning his parents and now he is bringing AK after Tynion done his own version of AK.
> 
> Not to mention his terrible characterization of Batman at top of that.


Except it wont be a story about Batman mourning his parents death, its just about a villain who attacks Bruce Wayne personally, that includes attacking Leslie, Henri Ducard, Alfred, Hugo Strange and recreating the scene of the Wayne murders. Its a mystery story.

Tynion's work on Colony was Batwoman centric, the concept lived and died with his take on Kate, it had no importance otherwise to Batman's world or story/character. Besides I dont think we can say for certain that we'll be getting the militia angle anyway.

----------


## Rise

Except it's still a story about his parents which was done to death. It's not a promising start for Tomasi and him bringing AK instead of creating something different and new doesn't help either.

----------


## Armor of God

But not by Tomasi though, aside from the first issue of Batman and Robin he never touched the Waynes and the upcoming doesn't sound like it will revolve around their deaths. At the end of the day I expect every major writer to kick off their run on Batman with some sort of reference to the Wayne murders, I'll happily join you if the new arc just becomes another "my parents are dead" non sense.

I'm not enthused about Arkham Knight either but if its a completely new take thats nothing like game version then I'll be on board for it. The name itself is fairly generic but sounds good enough to be used particularly because Jason will never use it in the mainstream comics so I'll keep an open mind. Ofcourse if it turns out to be another soldier guy bringing his own army then I'll be very displeased.

----------


## Rise

I don't care if he touch it before or not, it's still a story that was done to death and he isn't doing anything new.

Whether it's new version of it or not, I'm still not enthusiastic about it. He could have created something new instead of cheaply using one from a popular game to generate interest.

----------


## Zaresh

I will wait for the actual issue, but usually, these kind of piled up specials with big sized creative teams of big names are not my cup of tea. They rarely give me any story that I like.

I don't have a problem with someone else getting the AK name, if they write a good story for it, even if I think it's too soon for someone else to recycle that mantle. I wouldn't have a problem either with Jason going by it if it's out of continuity or a flashback or a flashforward with a good story behind.

I would do have a problem with it if they have Jason in this current continuity, by now, go by that name, costume and, well, background? Mood? Tactics? Something like that. I cannot find the right word. It would break and crash what we're reading in his own book. That would annoy me, most probably.

But I suspect it's going to be someone else: I'm going for Slade, for Deathstroke. Fits the military approach, he's full tacticool, has a story with the alias somehow and it's currently in Arkham if I'm not mistaken. It wouldn't be too wild of a guess, I think.

----------


## Sergard

Arkham Knight Jason Todd will always have a special place in my heart. Because of him I started reading comics.
But I'm okay with introducing a new Arkham Knight in main continuity. As already some mentioned, Jason will never use that name in main continuity. It wouldn't make sense.
On the other hand the name is well-known. It would be wasted if it wasn't used somehow.
Personally, I'm only marginally interested in the new character so far. But I do wonder if it's really a new character or maybe an old character revamped. Like Wrath.

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Jay. More concerned with being seen by the public than being recognized or that shoulder injury.

----------


## magpieM

> I don't have a problem with someone else getting the AK name, if they write a good story for it, even if I think it's too soon for someone else to recycle that mantle. I wouldn't have a problem either with Jason going by it if it's out of continuity or a flashback or a flashforward with a good story behind.





> But I'm okay with introducing a new Arkham Knight in main continuity. As already some mentioned, Jason will never use that name in main continuity. It wouldn't make sense.
> On the other hand the name is well-known. It would be wasted if it wasn't used somehow.
> Personally, I'm only marginally interested in the new character so far. But I do wonder if it's really a new character or maybe an old character revamped. Like Wrath.


I agree with both of you. Jason tossed the AK mantle near the end of the game and became RH. So to me it looks like AK is similar to a 'one-time-thing' even for Jason himself in Arkham universe. AK as a character name has become well-known because of the game. It would be a waste if there is no new story/game added to it in the future. 




> Arkham Knight Jason Todd will always have a special place in my heart. Because of him I started reading comics.


Me too. I played AK first before knowing anything about UTRH. Youtube keeps recommending UTRH clips to me when I watch other player's videos. As a matter of fact, I didn't even read any DC/Marvel comics before watching UTRH. AK is very special to me, too.




> But I suspect it's going to be someone else: I'm going for Slade, for Deathstroke. Fits the military approach, he's full tacticool, has a story with the alias somehow and it's currently in Arkham if I'm not mistaken. It wouldn't be too wild of a guess, I think.


But I think Slade is too proud to take over the AK role left by Jason ... XDD

----------


## Jackalope89

Duh! Its Helena Wayne, honoring her much older adopted brother from another universe!

----------


## Jman27

just finished watching the new titans episode with Jason in it. I feel like they did the character justice he was brutal in his fighting scenes and funny with his interactions with Dick. Unsure when he will next return but I cant wait for the crowbar to complete the transformation into Red Hood.

----------


## Zaresh

> But I think Slade is too proud to take over the AK role left by Jason ... XDD


No problem. It's not Jason's in this universe.
It could be some other inmate in Arkham and tied to Slade somehow. Like, I don't know, like some Metal Gear Solid-esque plot.

----------


## OpaqueGiraffe17

I’m browsing through the streaming service, thought you guys might find it funny that a certain episode from the old teen titans show is on the “getting to know Red Hood” page.
Red X = Jason confirmed?
75076E6F-E701-40F0-9FEC-8369B5B01AF9.jpg75076E6F-E701-40F0-9FEC-8369B5B01AF9.jpg

----------


## Jackalope89

> I’m browsing through the streaming service, thought you guys might find it funny that a particle episode from the old teen titans show is on the “getting to know Red Hood” page.
> Red X = Jason confirmed?
> 75076E6F-E701-40F0-9FEC-8369B5B01AF9.jpg75076E6F-E701-40F0-9FEC-8369B5B01AF9.jpg


Well, at least Teen Titans version of him at least. But its probably my favorite theory at this point. And if Teen Titans does come back, they may be able to expand on Red X some more.

Surprisingly, there's a number of fanfics with Jason as Red X. Some of which even include him being both X and Hood.

----------


## Sergard

> Surprisingly, there's a number of fanfics with Jason as Red X. Some of which even include him being both X and Hood.


I like the idea of Jason being Red X and Red Hood. It's like Bruce being Batman and Matches Malone - two different identities for two different purposes.
Jason could use Red X - a neutral thief, or? - if he wants to mingle with criminals without posing a threat to them. Or he could use the Red X identity when Red Hood is targeted by a villain and has to lay low.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I like the idea of Jason being Red X and Red Hood. It's like Bruce being Batman and Matches Malone - two different identities for two different purposes.
> Jason could use Red X - a neutral thief, or? - if he wants to mingle with criminals without posing a threat to them. Or he could use the Red X identity when Red Hood is targeted by a villain and has to lay low.


One I came across, Jason uses X for stealing and trolling the Titans, Hood to deal with other elements. And its an interesting mishmash of Teen Titans, Arrowverse, Young Justice, and Rebirth. Taking elements from each. Though rather than disrupt the Robin/Starfire thing, there's a not so subtle but strangely interesting push of Jason and Raven. Though, its going for the slow build setup right now.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1236138...e-Back-My-Mind

First part of a, so far, 4 story series. With the Teen Titans animated series being the main canon.

----------


## KC93

Has anyone seen that poll on the DC universe website?

----------


## babybats

> Has anyone seen that poll on the DC universe website?


I went there to check it out and hahaaaa um wow.  I wonder if it means anything other than just a poll, like if it ties into the show at all.  (Also, geez the whole page is dedicated to Bat stuff.  DC, you have other properties.)

----------


## Konja7

> I went there to check it out and hahaaaa um wow.  I wonder if it means anything other than just a poll, like if it ties into the show at all.  (Also, geez the whole page is dedicated to Bat stuff.  DC, you have other properties.)


What it says the poll? 

I'm looking, but I don't find the poll.

----------


## KC93

I found out about the poll through tumblr. Only people who live in the US can see it. Basically it’s a recreation of the vote where Robin lives or dies. I have no idea what it’s for only that tumblr fans are going mad about it. Someone over there had an idea that it might be to do with the titans show.

----------


## Konja7

> I found out about the poll through tumblr. Only people who live in the US can see it. Basically it’s a recreation of the vote where Robin lives or dies. I have no idea what it’s for only that tumblr fans are going mad about it. Someone over there had an idea that it might be to do with the titans show.


Thank you very much for the explanation. 

I was confused, because I was looking on other website. I don't have the app either. 

I see the poll on tumblr. "Robin Lives" seems to winning.

----------


## babybats

For people who can't see the poll, it said something like "this is your chance to rewrite history" or something.  The He Lives choice says "His life is in your hands!" and the He Dies choice says "What's done is done!"

----------


## okiedokiewo

> What it says the poll? 
> 
> I'm looking, but I don't find the poll.


https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll...d-live-or-die/

----------


## oasis1313

> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll...d-live-or-die/


Thanks!  I got to vote for Jason again!!!!!  And others are, too!

----------


## AJpyro

Jason Lives.

In both this poll and in RHatO Rebirth vol 4. Which i now own.

----------


## Jackalope89

"Merry freakin' Christmas, Roman!"

----------


## Rise

To the people who watched the episode, what's your opinion ion it?

----------


## G-Potion

> https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/poll...d-live-or-die/


Wow. I didn't expect Titans' Jason to be significant enough (but certainly loved though) for them to hold a poll like this. Well. At least I get to vote.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## G-Potion

More interview

----------


## Sergard

I want to vote too.  :Frown: 
Even if it's only symbolic. Because in the end it does not matter if Jason dies or not. He'll always become the Red Hood or something similar (look at Arkham Knight, there he didn't die either.)
But it would be nice to see a little bit more of Robin Jason since his comic run was so short.
And if they want to make something similar to Death in the Family or Jason's story in Arkham Knight, then I hope they'll do it by giving Jason Todd his own series and show it there.

----------


## Zaresh

I've got to watch this week's episode of Titans a bit earlier.

I'm not sure I'm completely fine with this Jason. I guess it fits the show's themes and dynamics, but I'm not sure. It wasn't just that last scene (which I guess I'm fine with, if they go that route with Jason), as much as it was the general bratness he showed most of the time. More specifically, *spoilers:*
in that scene in the club and also, when he says he does whatever he wants (so immature). Also, too much of his smug face everywhere and too little of his serious, concerned, aware face. You get that he's less easy going "let's kickasses and go wild" that he pretends to be, but it's barely there.
*end of spoilers*

I guess it's ok, but, it could be better. In any case, Curran Walters plays this role pretty well.

----------


## Jackalope89

Kids these days. Right Jay?

----------


## Jackalope89

Red Hood Cat is such a troll!

----------


## RedBird

> I've got to watch this week's episode of Titans a bit earlier.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm completely fine with this Jason. I guess it fits the show's themes and dynamics, but I'm not sure. It wasn't just that last scene (which I guess I'm fine with, if they go that route with Jason), as much as it was the general bratness he showed most of the time. More specifically, *spoilers:*
> in that scene in the club and also, when he says he does whatever he wants (so immature). Also, too much of his smug face everywhere and too little of his serious, concerned, aware face. You get that he's less easy going "let's kickasses and go wild" that he pretends to be, but it's barely there.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> I guess it's ok, but, it could be better. In any case, Curran Walters plays this role pretty well.


I got to see some scenes and.......Yeah. Unfortunately it seems like the show was headed in the direction I feared it would, back when initial trailers came out and Dick seemed much _too violent_ with perps, it had people asking, JEEZ if Dick is this unstable then what the hell is Jason? OOC is what. 

I don't think Robin Jason has ever been depicted as this reckless with this much of a skewed moral stance. What another *DC*pointment. Ah well, this is Dicks show anyways, I can still stomach his 'rougher' depiction at least.

That being said, as with most of the fight scenes the stunt work looked great from what I saw.

----------


## RedBird

colored version of that Tyler Kirkham cover



I don't know why but for some reason when it comes to the 'red eyed' lenses whenever they are not angrily squinting they kinda just look adorable more so than intimidating.

----------


## Zaresh

> I got to see some scenes and.......Yeah. Unfortunately it seems like the show was headed in the direction I feared it would, back when initial trailers came out and Dick seemed much _too violent_ with perps, it had people asking, JEEZ if Dick is this unstable then what the hell is Jason? OOC is what. 
> 
> I don't think Robin Jason has ever been depicted as this reckless with this much off a skewed moral stance. What another *DC*pointment. Ah well, this is Dicks show anyways, I can still stomach his 'rougher' depiction at least.
> 
> *That being said, as with most of the fight scenes the stunt work looked great from what I saw.*


They have been quite good, and I'm usually pretty hard to please with fighting scenes, both with choreography and cinematography. I also dig the more natural way of lighting the sets, but I get where people who complain about all the literal darkness in the screen come from.

----------


## RedBird

> They have been quite good, and I'm usually pretty had to please with fighting scenes, both with choreography and cinematography. I also dig the more natural way of lighting the sets, but I get where people who complain about all the literal darkness in the screem come from.


Yeah, I think some of that dark lighting choice may be to hide the stunt actors and real actor switch over in fight scenes perhaps, so in that sense I think I can forgive the lighting.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah, I think some of that dark lighting choice may be to hide the stunt actors and real actor switch over in fight scenes perhaps, so in that sense I think I can forgive the lighting.


Yep, probably. In my opinion, it's a better way to deal with it that, say, close ups and / or general blurness (Batman Begins, I'm looking at you, Christopher Nolan). Or having not really exciting action scenes. I guess I just was spoiled by watching all those martial arts action movies when I was a kid.

----------


## RedBird

> Yep, probably. In my opinion, it's a better way to deal with it that, say, close ups and / or general blurness (Batman Begins, I'm looking at you, Christopher Nolan). Or having not really exciting action scenes. I guess I just was spoiled by watching all those martial arts action movies when I was a kid.


Exactly, I saw a bit of the 'last fight' scene there's plenty of cool camera movements, mixed with moments where the camera is mainly still and we can see the stuntman/actor make their way from one side of the room to the other tactfully rolling or jumping, it's pretty impressive.

----------


## Rise

It wa better than expected especially in the context of the show where its main characters have done some seriously horrendous stuff. I really don't see what he did was worse than what Dick and Kory have done so far. 

Titans isn't bad, but it has been the definition of edgy and I don't like how overly violent DC has become with their comics and shows.

----------


## G-Potion

> colored version of that Tyler Kirkham cover
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why but for some reason when it comes to the 'red eyed' lenses whenever they are not angrily squinting they kinda just look adorable more so than intimidating.


That's so true. Basically my avatar vs this. :P

----------


## Sergard

There is always some place for a nice Robin Jason fanart.
Source

----------


## G-Potion

And Arkham Knight too.

http://whipbogard.tumblr.com/post/180205753676

----------


## G-Potion

A nice compilation. Spoilers everywhere of course.

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy

----------


## G-Potion

> Dexter Soy


Can't decide which one I want more.

----------


## Zaresh

Darn... So much good art. I like them all.




> It wa better than expected especially in the context of the show where its main characters have done some seriously horrendous stuff. I really don't see what he did was worse than what Dick and Kory have done so far. 
> 
> Titans isn't bad, but it has been the definition of edgy and I don't like how overly violent DC has become with their comics and shows.


Well, my main problem is with his attitude, more that his violence itself. The show is violent left and right, it fits that Jason would be like that. But eh, it could be worse. Way worse.

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Uncle Jay. So well meaning, but I don't think Dick will like it too much.

----------


## Sergard

> Ah, Uncle Jay. So well meaning, but I don't think Dick will like it too much.


DC's version of a deathnote.

Although my favorite Jason Todd and Mar'i Grayson fanart is still this one (same artist): (Source)

----------


## Jackalope89

Jay would make a great uncle!

And would be the shotgun uncle in place of Dick. lol

----------


## thebluefeline

I'm really enjoying Titans so far, I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but I appreciate the show for what it is. So far the gems of the show have been Beast Boy with his Doom Patrol episode and Jason in the recent one. The actors for both are extremely good for their respective characters so that already makes whatever scenes these two characters have very enjoyable for me.

As for Jason's character, I thought it was endearing how he bounced off of Dick's character and really liked the chemistry between them. It's very rare to see them interact in the comics so I really enjoyed the dilemmas between them about Bruce. Robin!Jason is a ball of energy and it shows in the scenes he shows up in very quickly. His whole appearance is meant to have Dick question whether Batman was a bad influence on him and whether he still wants to be Robin or not and it worked pretty well.

There's a certain scene that's meant to portray Jason as a troubled teen that might be a little bit polarizing in terms of characterization but I think that scene is meant to portray so many ideas about his character at once. Rule-breaking, vengeful, resentful towards his own upbringing and towards Dick's attitude about Robin and Batman. I liked that they didn't go with the easy route of just calling and making him a ball of rage like they sometimes do in the comics. It feels more nuanced and understandable here and it doesn't try to portray him in a bad light. He paints some very broad strokes in terms of who decides to beat up but that's the kind of teenage thinking every person probably has had at some point where the lines are black and white. A lot of people start to realize there's a middle ground as they get older and more mature. If they go on with Jason's character in this show I wouldn't mind seeing an arc for that. Would be really neat  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> (...)
> 
> There's a certain scene that's meant to portray Jason as a troubled teen that might be a little bit polarizing in terms of characterization but I think that scene is meant to portray so many ideas about his character at once. Rule-breaking, vengeful, resentful towards his own upbringing and towards Dick's attitude about Robin and Batman. I liked that they didn't go with the easy route of just calling and making him a ball of rage like they sometimes do in the comics. It feels more nuanced and understandable here and it doesn't try to portray him in a bad light. He paints some very broad strokes in terms of who decides to beat up but that's the kind of teenage thinking every person probably has had at some point where the lines are black and white*. A lot of people start to realize there's a middle ground as they get older and more mature. If they go on with Jason's character in this show I wouldn't mind seeing an arc for that. Would be really neat*


That's my hope, that they make him grow out of that teenager phase. Out of the all black and white phase, but also, because he really, really was too much of a brat for my tastes. You can see he is actually very straightforward with what he thinks, and that he's enthusiastic and has a somewhat friendly predisposition towards strangers (not as much as Gar, but, eh, hard to compete. He's pretty jerkish towards people who he doesn't like. A very Jason thing to do, too). But still, he's just bratty sometimes, more bratty than playful (he was playful with Dick a lot, and that's good and in character; not so much when he seemed arrogant). I disliked that pub scene where he was clearly provoking that guy just because. Yeah, that was my main problem, I think. He's mature enough to be conscious of his place and role beside Batman, way more aware of himself that Dick is. But then he pulls that, and too many smug faces. I get it, it's a very Jason thing to do. But too much of it and he comes across as a douche. And then, that line about doing whatever he wants because he's Robin... But then, who can blame him for thinking like that? Look at what the others do, what Dick does (and he's a cop!), what Bruce probably does: it's understable. And he's soo, soo angry at the world.

I liked the episode, I liked Jason overall. As I said, I wish we could have a better version of him, but alas! With the show as it is, it's really understable what we get. But I would love an arc for him in which he matures to the Jason we know. I love and appreciate good character development. It's why I loved Theon as a character in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books (it isn't so good in the show, but still, it kind of is still there): because his development is so well worked.

----------


## Badou

There has been more talk and attention regarding the Jason episode than any Titans episode so far, and I wouldn't be surprised if DC/WB look at that and might decide to do a Robin show following Jason for their streaming service if they plan on introducing Batman eventually. If the numbers for the episode are significantly better than most of their other episodes that is something people look at and can influence future projects. Which would eventually lead into a Red Hood series possibly.

----------


## oasis1313

> That's my hope, that they make him grow out of that teenager phase. Out of the all black and white phase, but also, because he really, really was too much of a brat for my tastes. You can see he is actually very straightforward with what he thinks, and that he's enthusiastic and has a somewhat friendly predisposition towards strangers (not as much as Gar, but, eh, hard to compete. He's pretty jerkish towards people who he doesn't like. A very Jason thing to do, too). But still, he's just bratty sometimes, more bratty than playful (he was playful with Dick a lot, and that's good and in character; not so much when he seemed arrogant). I disliked that pub scene where he was clearly provoking that guy just because. Yeah, that was my main problem, I think. He's mature enough to be conscious of his place and role beside Batman, way more aware of himself that Dick is. But then he pulls that, and too many smug faces. I get it, it's a very Jason thing to do. But too much of it and he comes across as a douche. And then, that line about doing whatever he wants because he's Robin... But then, who can blame him for thinking like that? Look at what the others do, what Dick does (and he's a cop!), what Bruce probably does: it's understable. And he's soo, soo angry at the world.
> 
> I liked the episode, I liked Jason overall. As I said, I wish we could have a better version of him, but alas! With the show as it is, it's really understable what we get. But I would love an arc for him in which he matures to the Jason we know. I love and appreciate good character development. It's why I loved Theon as a character in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books (it isn't so good in the show, but still, it kind of is still there): because his development is so well worked.


I really liked Jason's appearance in the show--thrilled to see him.  The more appearances Jason makes in various forms of media, the better for the character.  Curran had great chemistry with Brenton, too.  I didn't think Jason was douchey; all this Bat-stuff is new to him and it's a kick, for now.  For Jason, too, this may be the first time any adult has ever shown him any kindness--let alone a chance to make something for himself; I think the show really highlighted a big difference between him and Dick:  Jason didn't grow up in a loving family environment.  I hope they show that this life isn't what he's really looking for.

----------


## Sergard

Some fanart from 2016 I found while waiting for the TT #24 preview (still waiting). I love the atmosphere.

----------


## Zaresh

> Some fanart from 2016 I found while waiting for the TT #24 preview (still waiting). I love the atmosphere.


Beautiful. Pretty colour choice and ligthing play.

----------


## Sergard

Some outlaws fanarts by shoucolate:

Source: _Drunk nails painting session with Jason and Arty._



Source: _Jay introducing Artemis and Kory to Pokemon Go.
Bonus : Roy trying to make B. catch a jigglypuff._

----------


## G-Potion

> Some fanart from 2016 I found while waiting for the TT #24 preview (still waiting). I love the atmosphere.


Nice! I like the whole composition, mood and colors.

----------


## Jackalope89

Harley wants to connect, but Jason ain't having none of that. 



And with the line that Jason used earlier, that Harley was actually his therapist at one point, kind of makes you wonder if Lobdell will touch on that down the line.

----------


## Sergard

> Harley wants to connect, but Jason ain't having none of that. 
> 
> 
> 
> And with the line that Jason used earlier, that Harley was actually his therapist at one point, kind of makes you wonder if Lobdell will touch on that down the line.


What exactly did Jason say? Do you mean the "I ... had a few sessions with her." line?

----------


## Jackalope89

> What exactly did Jason say? Do you mean the "I ... had a few sessions with her." line?


Yeah, that line.

----------


## Arsenal

RED HOOD: OUTLAW #31

written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art and cover by PETE WOODS
variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
Red Hood and Arsenal began this investigation of the Underlife together in Beijing, and this is where it ends: in an abandoned prison in Mexico. With Roy Harper having passed, Jason Todd finds himself teamed with an ally he couldn’t have imagined—Wingman! (But wait—wasn’t Jason the face beneath Wingman’s mask in BATMAN INCORPORATED?!) When it is all over, Red Hood arrives at a conclusion that will shake the streets of Gotham City…forever?

TEEN TITANS #27

written by ADAM GLASS
art by BERNARD CHANG
cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH
variant cover by ALEX GARNER
Every Teen Titan has a secret—and they all come spilling out here! As Djinn helps Robin recover from his injuries after a brutal showdown with Red Hood, she tells him all about her dark past, revealing some unsettling truths about herself. Meanwhile, Red Arrow helps Crush find a new sense of purpose, and Roundhouse reveals the tragic story of how he got his powers!

sounds like Jason hurts Damian pretty badly in their fight

----------


## Rise

Really happy to see Scalera back. Loved the variants he made for the first arc.

And it's look like issue 30 and 31 are going to be really interesting.

----------


## Zaresh

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #31
> 
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art and cover by PETE WOODS
> variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
> Red Hood and Arsenal began this investigation of the Underlife together in Beijing, and this is where it ends: in an abandoned prison in Mexico. With Roy Harper having passed, Jason Todd finds himself teamed with an ally he couldn’t have imagined—Wingman! (But wait—wasn’t Jason the face beneath Wingman’s mask in BATMAN INCORPORATED?!) When it is all over, Red Hood arrives at a conclusion that will shake the streets of Gotham City…forever?
> 
> TEEN TITANS #27
> 
> ...


The injuies could be because both fighted. I doubt they would let Jason beat damian at this point.

On the other hand... Yay! We finally go deep into the Willis plot. Will he also be Wingman? I wonder (I doubt he will, but you never know).

----------


## Rise

Well, TT plot seems suspiciously similar to the previous arc from RHATO. DC has been painfully lacking new ideas the last few months.

----------


## Sergard

To be frank, I'm disappointed.

I liked the idea of Appleton - and as it seems, the story is already leaving the town although Jason has just set foot in it. I would have liked to see something similar to Catwoman. Jason having his own town - at least for an arc where he can investigate while being targeted by a stranger/strangers. Having the whole town hunting him could have been a great transition to the finale where Wingman is revealed. Why this fast pacing story telling? It feels sloppy.

----------


## Arsenal

> The injuies could be because both fighted. I doubt they would let Jason beat damian at this point.
> 
> On the other hand... Yay! We finally go deep into the Willis plot. Will he also be Wingman? I wonder (I doubt he will, but you never know).


I’m not saying that it’s a one sided beat down. Just that it sounds like Damian gets hurts pretty bad at some point during the fight between them.

----------


## Rise

Jason having his own town will be a terrible idea and it will hurt him. 

And the underlife arc started issue 26. I wouldn't call this rushed.

And why wouldn't they let Jason beat Damian? He should never been a match for him in the first place.

----------


## Arsenal

> To be frank, I'm disappointed.
> 
> I liked the idea of Appleton - and as it seems, the story is already leaving the town although Jason has just set foot in it. I would have liked to see something similar to Catwoman. Jason having his own town - at least for an arc where he can investigate while being targeted by a stranger/strangers. Having the whole town hunting him could have been a great transition to the finale where Wingman is revealed. Why this fast pacing story telling? It feels sloppy.


Isn’t that exactly what’s about to happen?

Issue 29: RH & BW vs the town 
Issue 30: Wingman 
Issue 31: Arc finale 

Edit: just noticed the “Prison in Mexico” part

----------


## Zaresh

> I’m not saying that it’s a one sided beat down. Just that it sounds like Damian gets hurts pretty bad at some point during the fight between them.


Nah, it will be nothing. You will see. Just enough for them to break contact for a while. Solicits usually overplay this stuff for a dramatic effect.

On the other hand, it bores me to death how they are brutally forcing all the bats of the core family to be isotated. It's breaking bonds with so much potential for bringing satisfaction to the readers. I hate nonsensical melodrama: it's boring.

----------


## Arsenal

> Nah, it will be nothing. You will see. Just enough for them to break contact for a while. Solicits usually overplay this stuff for a dramatic effect.
> 
> On the other hand, it bores me to death how they are brutally forcing all the bats of the core family to be isotated. It's breaking bonds with so much potential for bringing satisfaction to the readers. I hate nonsensical melodrama: it's boring.


Oh I know. I wouldn’t even be surprised if Damian’s injuries aren’t from Jason at all or if the fight itself only lasts a few strikes. 

Just figured I’d include the solicits since Jason was mentioned.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nah, it will be nothing. You will see. Just enough for them to break contact for a while. Solicits usually overplay this stuff for a dramatic effect.
> 
> On the other hand, it bores me to death how they are brutally forcing all the bats of the core family to be isotated. It's breaking bonds with so much potential for bringing satisfaction to the readers. I hate nonsensical melodrama: it's boring.


Zaresh, I wish you were working for DC!

----------


## Zaresh

> Zaresh, I wish you were working for DC!


I wish I would, too!

*spoilers:*
Actually, I wish for any work nowadays, just a regular job, he he.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## magpieM

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #30
> Will the Red Hoods latest campaign be his last? Jasons hot on the heels of the drugs he and Arsenal recently tracked to Beijing, but instead of finally encountering the mysterious Solitary, he finds himself face to face with a figure from his past. Plus, whos the new Wingman, and whys he tracking the Red Hood? And how can he and Jason be in the same place at the same time? Find out in Outlaw part five!





> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #31
> Red Hood and Arsenal began this investigation of the Underlife together in Beijing, and this is where it ends: in an abandoned prison in Mexico. With Roy Harper having passed, Jason Todd finds himself teamed with an ally he couldnt have imaginedWingman! (But waitwasnt Jason the face beneath Wingmans mask in BATMAN INCORPORATED?!) When it is all over, Red Hood arrives at a conclusion that will shake the streets of Gotham Cityforever?


So who do you think this 'Wingman' would be? They are teaming up when Solitary begins to surface. Could the old man himself dress up like Wingman? Or other known characters? (The very original one from Sweden? Creeper might be a candidate too but I don't see the necessity for him to hide his identity in front of Jason)

----------


## Arsenal

I’m saying it’s Tim Drake.

I have absolutely no evidence to support it, he’s just the first one to pop in my head when I initially read it

----------


## G-Potion

> I’m saying it’s Tim Drake.
> 
> I have absolutely no evidence to support it, he’s just the first one to pop in my head when I initially read it


This would be hilarious wouldn't it? Robin, Red Robin and then Wingman. All from Jason's.

----------


## G-Potion

I'm very intrigued about both #30 and #31. Having Matteo Scalera back is very, very good. That said though, I'm also worried about Appleton potentially being rushed, but that's because of how #28 felt. We'll see. I've been liking all the issues so far but I do wish future ones to be more meaty.

----------


## Zaresh

> This would be hilarious wouldn't it? Robin, Red Robin and then Wingman. All from Jason's.


He's a fan.
But no, I don't think it will be Tim. Not with Bendis using him in whatever that YJ book with still uncertain place in continuity will be. I even doubt it will be a bat under the mask.

----------


## G-Potion

> He's a fan.
> But no, I don't think it will be Tim. Not with Bendis using him in whatever that YJ book with still uncertain place in continuity will be. I even doubt it will be a bat under the mask.


Yeah better not be. I kinda have a thought. If Jason's teaming up with Wingman can he also do it with the new Arkham Knight? :P

----------


## oasis1313

> I wish I would, too!
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Actually, I wish for any work nowadays, just a regular job, he he.
> *end of spoilers*


Good luck, my friend!!!

----------


## G-Potion

> Nah, it will be nothing. You will see. Just enough for them to break contact for a while. Solicits usually overplay this stuff for a dramatic effect.
> 
> On the other hand, it bores me to death how they are brutally forcing all the bats of the core family to be isotated. It's breaking bonds with so much potential for bringing satisfaction to the readers. I hate nonsensical melodrama: it's boring.


Regardless of the severity of the beatdown, at the moment, I'm more concerned about whether the real Red Hood did it or Wingman posing as Red Hood. I really hope there's a good reason, because this partnership is ending way too soon for my liking.

----------


## Jackalope89

Duh! It's Jason't blonde older brother, Jason!

----------


## G-Potion

Funny you say that. :P




> BATMAN BEYOND #29
> written by DAN JURGENS
> art by BRETT BOOTH and NORM RAPMUND
> cover by PASQUAL FERRY
> variant cover by SHAWN MARTINBROUGH
> The Joker is prepared to deliver his fatal punchline as everything—and the kitchen sink, too—hits the fan for Batman and Robin. Even with Dick Grayson’s help, the Dynamic Duo of tomorrow and Bruce Wayne may not stand a chance. *Will The Joker turn Terry’s brother into the new Jason Todd?* Is now a good time for Terry and Bruce to clash? And why are Neo-Gothamites cheering on the Clown Prince? Will anyone survive “The Final Joke”?
> ON SALE 02.27.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | RATED T

----------


## Badou

Honestly, it being pre Flashpoint redheaded Jason as this Wingman might be interesting, lol. Jumping into some weird alt dimension or pre Flashpoint shenanigans could be entertaining.

----------


## G-Potion

Cover's nice!

----------


## oasis1313

> Cover's nice!


Oh, wow--that IS a fantastic cover!!!

----------


## RedBird

Anyone suppose the new Wingman could legitimately be Jason? As in Jason from the dark twisted timeline that Arty and Biz got thrown into? It would help tie everything together; a physical and symbolic reflection of Jasons new identity crisis, a way to connect the outlaws storylines together, plus there already is an explaination for how he got to this world through the doorway that Biz created.

I think it would be quite fitting, also if its something that will 'shake up Gotham' maybe this alt Jason will take the new RH identity to unlease hell upon Gotham? Tarnishing Jasons RH reputation even further till he has no choice but to don his OG Red Hood get up once again to seperate himself and stop the new Wingman Red Hood, thereby reclaiming his identity and reastablishing himself. And boy oh boy I think I just channeled into my inner cliche script writer there lol. Pretty standard stuff for a comic though.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah better not be. I kinda have a thought. If Jason's teaming up with Wingman can he also do it with the new Arkham Knight? :P


Oh! That, it could be too, I guess. But hmm, I don't know, let's go crazy: what if it's Faye, Jason's cousin, under the mask (pulling a Samus)? I don't know how she could have got the costume, but this arc seems to work with friends, family and secrets as a motif behind the plot. And regarding that, what do you people believe could be that twist that could riot Gotham's streets 'forever'? I'm guessing is has to do with Willis and probably the Gunns and Todds, but it may had to do with the criminal wildlife in the city as a whole.

Darn. Even when I like this book less, I still love it. I really enjoy discussing stuff that could happen here.




> Good luck, my friend!!!


Thanks, mate! All good wishes are welcome.




> Honestly, it being pre Flashpoint redheaded Jason as this Wingman might be interesting, lol. Jumping into some weird alt dimension or pre Flashpoint shenanigans could be entertaining.





> Anyone suppose the new Wingman could legitimately be Jason? As in Jason from the dark twisted timeline that Arty and Biz got thrown into? It would help tie everything together; a physical and symbolic reflection of Jasons new identity crisis, a way to connect the outlaws storylines together, plus there already is an explaination for how he got to this world through the doorway that Biz created.
> 
> I think it would be quite fitting, also if its something that will 'shake up Gotham' maybe this alt Jason will take the new RH identity to unlease hell upon Gotham? Tarnishing Jasons RH reputation even further till he has no choice but to don his OG Red Hood get up once again to seperate himself and stop the new Wingman Red Hood, thereby reclaiming his identity and reastablishing himself. And boy oh boy I think I just channeled into my inner cliche script writer there lol. Pretty standard stuff for a comic though.


I'm still loving the idea of another continuity Jason messing with our current one. I love that kind of stuff. I remember reading some rather old fannfic series  (shameles JayTim shipping, but enterteining after all), what worked under that premise, with the real Jason like some Odysseus figure trying to come home and out redhead Jason from there. I liked it a lot, even if it wans't the best written fic I've read. Sci fi, with some really heartbreaking moments.

----------


## RedBird

> It wa better than expected especially in the context of the show where its main characters have done some seriously horrendous stuff. I really don't see what he did was worse than what Dick and Kory have done so far. 
> 
> Titans isn't bad, but it has been the definition of edgy and I don't like how overly violent DC has become with their comics and shows.


That's true, I mean I still don't like the brutality from Jason here either, but yeah everyone seems a little too _extra edgy_ in the show, which is a shame since it seems to be pretty decent in every other department, I'm super curious to watch all the episodes to get some better context. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it also revealed that Bruce is a killer in this world?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Wingman could be an alternate universe Jason. He's what Jason would be if he hadn't died at the joker's hand.

----------


## Agent Z

DC Universe (the streaming service) is holding a poll to determine if Titans Jason lives or dies.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/11...dd-live-or-die

----------


## Arsenal

> That's true, I mean I still don't like the brutality from Jason here either, but yeah everyone seems a little too _extra edgy_ in the show, which is a shame since it seems to be pretty decent in every other department, I'm super curious to watch all the episodes to get some better context. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it also revealed that Bruce is a killer in this world?


Maybe in an interview but not in the show (so far)

----------


## G-Potion

http://oshoshi.tumblr.com/post/18025...9/he-was-great

----------


## oasis1313

> http://oshoshi.tumblr.com/post/18025...9/he-was-great


This is great--I love it!  Thanks so much for posting.

----------


## kaimaciel

I enjoyed the episode overall and Curran Walters brought a lot of joy and life to the character. Though, I have to admit that the ending with the cops was a bit too much. I would expect such a beating towards criminals or rapists, not cops who Jason never met and had never done anything to him. Then again, Dick is already over the top brutal with criminals so maybe the showrunners wanted to portray how Jason is "worse" by beating up cops and having zero respect for authority figures.

I'm not sure I like that. Especially with all the "now I see why the fans voted to kill him" tweets. However, the "He Lived" poll is winning, so that's a win  :Smile:

----------


## Armor of God

Doubt the poll will make any difference.

----------


## G-Potion

It won't likely make any change in the plot. But it's another showing of love for the character which DC has to have noticed by now.

----------


## josai21

> I enjoyed the episode overall and Curran Walters brought a lot of joy and life to the character. Though, I have to admit that the ending with the cops was a bit too much. I would expect such a beating towards criminals or rapists, not cops who Jason never met and had never done anything to him. Then again, Dick is already over the top brutal with criminals so maybe the showrunners wanted to portray how Jason is "worse" by beating up cops and having zero respect for authority figures.
> 
> I'm not sure I like that. Especially with all the "now I see why the fans voted to kill him" tweets. However, the "He Lived" poll is winning, so that's a win


I mean Jason explicity says in the episode that Cops used to beat on him when he was homeless in the episode. He doesn't see cops as any different from criminal thugs. It's understandable.

----------


## Sergard

> Jason having his own town will be a terrible idea and it will hurt him. s
> 
> And the underlife arc started issue 26. I wouldn't call this rushed.


I don't see how Jason temporary taking up residence in another town for one or two arcs could hurt the character. Especially since we already know that Jason and Damian work together. So his character isn't isolated from the rest of the world. And as long as King's Bane story isn't over I'm actually glad that Jason does not have his main focus on Gotham. Even if he is one of the few (more heroic) characters that make me feel like they really belong to Gotham, the place they were born, where they want to make a difference and where they want eventually to die.

Issue 27 was more of a HiC tie-in. Jason reached Appleton on the last pages. And on the first pages of issue 28 he's already attacked by the whole town. That's rushed in my eyes. I'd have preferred issue 28 to be a little calmer, Jason doing some investigation, maybe going out at night as Red Hood - and maybe getting attacked by the town people. That would have also solved the costume problem.

I hope issue 28 is more than Jason and Batwoman fighting some big monsters and is delivering some more information about Underlife because so far I don't see how the Underlife in RHatO can be the same Underlife as in Silencer.

----------


## Sergard

Final cover of Red Hood: Outlaw #29

----------


## G-Potion

Curran Walters trying on a Red Hood hoodie jacket. 

Link to the clip: https://www.instagram.com/stories/bradley206/

----------


## Sergard

Jason does not appear in Teen Titans #24. So much for "Damian's secret mentor is revealed".

----------


## RedBird

> Curran Walters trying on a Red Hood hoodie jacket. 
> 
> Link to the clip: https://www.instagram.com/stories/bradley206/


Nice, always great to see actors embracing their roles and honestly Curran has thus far done a great job in the role, I'm loving his performance.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nice, always great to see actors embracing their roles and honestly Curran has thus far done a great job in the role, I'm loving his performance.


And I loved how enthusiastic he was in the interviews.  Curran is a natural; I want him to put Jason the media map!

----------


## Celgress

> 


Loving this series of illustrations.  :Big Grin:  :Cool:

----------


## Jackalope89

> Loving this series of illustrations.


Really wouldn't mind an Elseworld with Uncle Jay looking after Mar'i while Kori and Dick are busy on a date/other world or something. Where Dick is more permissive and accepting, I can very easily see Jason being like that overprotective father figure that scares the boy away.

----------


## oasis1313

> Really wouldn't mind an Elseworld with Uncle Jay looking after Mar'i while Kori and Dick are busy on a date/other world or something. Where Dick is more permissive and accepting, I can very easily see Jason being like that overprotective father figure that scares the boy away.


What issues do we look for to find Mr and Alien Mrs Garyson having a daughter?  Somehow I am reminded of Junior Tracy (Dick Tracy's adopted son), his wife Moon Maid, and their daughter Honey Moon.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Curran Walters trying on a Red Hood hoodie jacket. 
> 
> Link to the clip: https://www.instagram.com/stories/bradley206/


Oh he's gorgeous

----------


## nhienphan2808

Jason was excellent in the new episode. Changes to him was understandable and even really spot on. I was critical of Johns because he was one of the writers that victim blamed jason back then, but he really did a good job fitting Jason in the whole universe here. You cant expect 80s Jason to really "work" the same way. Im glad his core of very down to earth ways and innate goodness and loyalty was the same. 

- Hate towards criminals - Everyone hates criminals and wants to kill them now so  corrupted police was good, it's more 2010s. 
- With Bruce right after he dropped out of school and at 12. This Jason was with Bruce since 18 for 1 year so he has more edge. 
- Don;t know Dick and closer to Bruce. I like that he was loyal and attentive to the main character being Dick here.

This builds up Red X rather than Red Hood (since he's closer to Dick and show cant use Joker or Bruce or Talia) but both Jasons are awesome.

----------


## Jackalope89

> What issues do we look for to find Mr and Alien Mrs Garyson having a daughter?  Somehow I am reminded of Junior Tracy (Dick Tracy's adopted son), his wife Moon Maid, and their daughter Honey Moon.


Kingdom Come is where it came from, if I remember correctly.

----------


## G-Potion

Just an update on the poll. The gap's getting bigger. And I think they changed the question.

----------


## Zaresh

> Just an update on the poll. The gap's getting bigger. And I think they changed the question.


Definitely, yes, they changed the question. Makes sense, this one doesn't compromise then to change the story.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

nightwing-55-Tyler-Kirkham-600x911.jpg

So it was just a variant cover.

----------


## Sergard

> nightwing-55-Tyler-Kirkham-600x911.jpg
> 
> So it was just a variant cover.


So theoretically, Jason won't even appear in the issue?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So theoretically, Jason won't even appear in the issue?


At most it will mentioned or maybe a flashback.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Funny thing is I thought a memory loss arc would have been better to try with Jason. Rather than the total memory loss of Ric it would be a case of Anterograde amnesia, where you lose a portion but not all (i'm oversimplifying it). Having Jason revert to his Robin memories while being red hood opens itself up to alot of good moments.

Jason was pretty good in Titans.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Funny thing is I thought a memory loss arc would have been better to try with Jason. Rather than the total memory loss of Ric it would be a case of Anterograde amnesia, where you lose a portion but not all (i'm oversimplifying it). Having Jason revert to his Robin memories while being red hood opens itself up to alot of good moments.
> 
> Jason was pretty good in Titans.


We had a Memory loss arc with Jason a few years ago. It sucked.

----------


## Jackalope89

> We had a Memory loss arc with Jason a few years ago. It sucked.


Yeah. He called himself "Son Jay" and thought he was Goku's great-grandson. Tried to kamehameha Dick and Tim.

----------


## G-Potion

https://mobile.twitter.com/nockuth/s...557248/photo/1

----------


## Restingvoice

> Just an update on the poll. The gap's getting bigger. And I think they changed the question.


Oh ok. I'm not in the US so I can't see the poll and was about to yell at twitter at how tasteless it was to do it again

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

I thought it be kinda cool if Jason gets his own team in Titans. He's never had his own group of friends till Outlaws v2. I know he had Roy and Starfire but those Dick's. 

I wouldn't mind if he teamed up with either the Wonder Twins or The Runaways from YJ.

In YJ or Titans im not in a rush to see him as Red hood. I don't mind if they focus on the before/in between of his life.

----------


## dietrich

> What issues do we look for to find Mr and Alien Mrs Garyson having a daughter?  Somehow I am reminded of Junior Tracy (Dick Tracy's adopted son), his wife Moon Maid, and their daughter Honey Moon.


Kingdom Nightstar is her spin off from the main book

Mari Grayson ends up marring the Damian Wayne from That world whose name I can't spell. Dick wasn't too happy at 1st

----------


## yohyoi

> So theoretically, Jason won't even appear in the issue?


No. Variant covers do not happen in an issue. (Sometimes even the main covers too). The goal is to look cool. For example, variants the past months mostly have Dick, what we get... Ric.

----------


## G-Potion

http://mw-house.tumblr.com/post/1804...reet-boy-jason

----------


## RedBird

@motorogo2015

----------


## Jackalope89

Batman-Did I just get beat by a 12 year old?

----------


## Sergard

Is there a reason why the next issue will be released a week earlier than usual?

----------


## Sergard

New art by JJMK.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Is there a reason why the next issue will be released a week earlier than usual?


Christmas break, I presume.

----------


## Sergard



----------


## Aahz

Marcus To

----------


## G-Potion

> New art by JJMK.


Whaaa that's pretty!!

----------


## G-Potion

> 


And I just realized how sad the context for this is.  :Frown:

----------


## Celgress

For those who may be interested, Red Hood (alongside our favorite Amazon Artemis) makes a cameo appearance in the current chapter (eight) of my Justice League/Avengers Crossover story "Legion of Superheroes" -

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301484...of-Superheroes

If so inclined, enjoy.

----------


## Zaresh

> 


This is heartbreaking and warm at the same time. Darn.




> For those who may be interested, Red Hood (alongside our favorite Amazon Artemis) makes a cameo appearance in the current chapter (eight) of my Justice League/Avengers Crossover story "Legion of Superheroes" -
> 
> https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1301484...of-Superheroes
> 
> If so inclined, enjoy.


Oh, cool. Congrats on your work.
Heh, we're a bunch of artistic inclined users, eh? Plenty of writers and graphic artists here.

----------


## Arsenal

> 


I wasn’t prepared for this gut punch

----------


## Zaresh

So... After episode 7 of Titans...

*spoilers:*
I have no idea how they're going to approach the conflict between the Titans and Red Hood if they eventually get to that point, honestly. Specially, I have no idea how they can put Dick in a clearer moral ground, after what happened in this episode. Wow, holy mother of god. I mean, it's understable, but, eh... I don't know how people have reacted yet, but I can picture some fans becoming mad about this.

Maybe they will make Dick regret his actions?

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Jackalope89

> So... After episode 7 of Titans...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> I have no idea how they're going to approach the conflict between the Titans and Red Hood is they eventually get to that point, honestly. Specially, I have no idea how they can put Dick in a clearer moral ground, after what happened in this episode. Wow, holy mother of god. I mean, it's understable, but, eh... I don't know how people have reacted yet, but I can picture some fans becoming mad about this.
> 
> Maybe they will make Dick regret his actions?
> 
> *end of spoilers*


Yeah. I've seen comments here and there about people not being happy Dick gave the "OK" on that. As it goes against a lot of what people know about him. Its easy to see _why_, but yeah.

And, yeah. No one is blaming Gar at least. Kori showed remarkable restraint. And Rachel... Yeah. Who would have though she could "take it back"? 

For Jason... He really needs to appear more in the series before his inevitable turn into Red Hood. Make some sort of connections with the other members at least.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yeah. I've seen comments here and there about people not being happy Dick gave the "OK" on that. As it goes against a lot of what people know about him. Its easy to see _why_, but yeah.
> 
> And, yeah. No one is blaming Gar at least. Kori showed remarkable restraint. And Rachel... Yeah. Who would have though she could "take it back"? 
> 
> For Jason... He really needs to appear more in the series before his inevitable turn into Red Hood. Make some sort of connections with the other members at least.


Yeah. Gar and Kori, heck, even Rachel, you can easily forgive that (or at least, it's justifiable). But Dick... Heh, that will need a lot of work.

----------


## Arsenal

> So... After episode 7 of Titans...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> I have no idea how they're going to approach the conflict between the Titans and Red Hood if they eventually get to that point, honestly. Specially, I have no idea how they can put Dick in a clearer moral ground, after what happened in this episode. Wow, holy mother of god. I mean, it's understable, but, eh... I don't know how people have reacted yet, but I can picture some fans becoming mad about this.
> 
> Maybe they will make Dick regret his actions?
> 
> *end of spoilers*


There are ways to work around it. Honestly the only thing that would make it a problem is how they decide to use Bruce.

----------


## oasis1313

> There are ways to work around it. Honestly the only thing that would make it a problem is how they decide to use Bruce.


I think DC Streaming Dick (versus DC Comics Dick) would learn of Jason's death, then go back to the 'Cave and yell at the tall silent figure in a cape-n-cowl who keeps his back turned to Dick (and the camera) the whole time and never says a word.  Then Dick finally finishes his profanity-loaded tirade and storms out of the 'Cave, with the tall silent figure still standing there, unmoved, facing the stone wall with the rest of the world locked out.  He will never turn around or speak so that his face would be seen or his voice would be heard or any reaction would be seen.  THAT is how I see Batman's appearance in this thing.

----------


## Arsenal

> I think DC Streaming Dick (versus DC Comics Dick) would learn of Jason's death, then go back to the 'Cave and yell at the tall silent figure in a cape-n-cowl who keeps his back turned to Dick (and the camera) the whole time and never says a word.  Then Dick finally finishes his profanity-loaded tirade and storms out of the 'Cave, with the tall silent figure still standing there, unmoved, facing the stone wall with the rest of the world locked out.  He will never turn around or speak so that his face would be seen or his voice would be heard or any reaction would be seen.  THAT is how I see Batman's appearance in this thing.


So basically what they’ve been doing already

----------


## Zaresh

> I think DC Streaming Dick (versus DC Comics Dick) would learn of Jason's death, then go back to the 'Cave and yell at the tall silent figure in a cape-n-cowl who keeps his back turned to Dick (and the camera) the whole time and never says a word.  Then Dick finally finishes his profanity-loaded tirade and storms out of the 'Cave, with the tall silent figure still standing there, unmoved, facing the stone wall with the rest of the world locked out.  He will never turn around or speak so that his face would be seen or his voice would be heard or any reaction would be seen.  THAT is how I see Batman's appearance in this thing.





> So basically what they’ve been doing already


I was talking more about how they (the not-killing-rule heroes in the comic) will struggle with Jason killing people, bad guys more specifically. But I guess they are going to just plain write Jason killing whoever he will, good or bad alike. That motivation (killing bad guys I mean) for the conflict is out of the board right now.

Or maybe not, and the writers surprise me. They've been doing fine: maybe they will.

----------


## oasis1313

> So basically what they’ve been doing already


Hey, we're both geniuses!

----------


## Arsenal

> I was talking more about how they (the not-killing-rule heroes in the comic) will struggle with Jason killing people, bad guys more specifically. But I guess they are going to just plain write Jason killing whoever he will, good or bad alike. That motivation (killing bad guys I mean) for the conflict is out of the board right now.
> 
> Or maybe not, and the writers surprise me. They've been doing fine: maybe they will.


Not necessarily. It’s only a problem if Dick is still killing people when the Redhood season starts. As long as Dick moves beyond that status quo, they should be able to introduce the Redhood from the UTH arc without an issue. They don’t have to turn Redhood into another generic crime lord to make him work on the show.

----------


## Zaresh

> Not necessarily. It’s only a problem if Dick is still killing people when the Redhood season starts. As long as Dick moves beyond that status quo, they should be able to introduce the Redhood from the UTH arc without an issue. They don’t have to turn Redhood into another generic crime lord to make him work on the show.


Right. Then I guess Dick will change from how he is now.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah. Gar and Kori, heck, even Rachel, you can easily forgive that (or at least, it's justifiable). But Dick... Heh, that will need a lot of work.


He might have viewed it as a kill-or-be-killed situation; he has to protect Rachel and Gar.

----------


## Zaresh

> He might have viewed it as a kill-or-be-killed situation; he has to protect Rachel and Gar.


Mm.. 

*spoilers:*
I don't see how asking Kori to do that could be seem as a kill-or-be-killed in the case of the security guards that were very injured and cold and would probably not go after and hunt them. Or the maybe scientists that were doing their mad experiments somewhere else in the building and would've just run away somewhere else and contiuing doing mad science that had nothing to do with the Titans. I mean, sure; neither of them were "good" guys. But it still was... cold; murderous, even (it was arguable planned, even if shortly before the act). I could see Jason in UTH doing that, under the assumption that they were probably going to eventually go and hurt or kill more innocent people. But it's really not much of a justification for someone like the Dick from the comic and that really sits me...not very right. I know that the audience is not supposed to mind about the fate of some imaginary mad scientists or some injured unconscious thugs, and I'm probably overthinking this. But in my defense, the episode gave me enough time and focus to actually notice it :/. It's not a Death Star Contractors situation, I'm not overthinking to absurd degrees, I think ("Cleerks" scene reference).
*end of spoilers*

*spoilers:*
Dick probably just wanted to blow up the building and that was what we were meant to undertand, I guess. And you are probably right about him wanting to ensure they were safe. But it didn't work for me, somehow.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## G-Potion

https://eneeeeene.tumblr.com/

----------


## Jackalope89

Redwing and Nighthood!

----------


## G-Potion

> Redwing and Nighthood!


Cute! And I love that height difference.  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

> https://eneeeeene.tumblr.com/


WOAH those colours!

This is beautiful

----------


## Zaresh

> WOAH those colours!
> 
> This is beautiful


The red in the text is a bit too bright and Jason is too muted. It hurts my eyes a bit (but I have eyesight problems sooo). But nevertheless, it's a really, really fine done and beautiful piece. The rendering itself is pretty cool.

----------


## DragonsChi

I know this is is off topic but...I think Jasons new costume would look a heck of alot better if his hood looked more like fabric instead of  thick leather. 

Something more like this :

----------


## G-Potion

> I know this is is off topic but...I think Jasons new costume would look a heck of alot better if his hood looked more like fabric instead of  thick leather.


Yeah I think that's one of the reasons the costume looks too bulky/blocky sometimes. On some covers like #28 and #31 Woods toned down the thickness and it looks much better.

----------


## G-Potion

http://mw-house.tumblr.com/post/1805...a-long-journey

----------


## kaimaciel

Regarding the Titans episode, do you guys think Dick still has the moral high ground over Jason after what happened?

----------


## Zaresh

> Regarding the Titans episode, do you guys think Dick still has the moral high ground over Jason after what happened?


We were discussing this issue in the previous page. It will need a lot of work, and Dick being developed out if this phase, but by when we will have Red Hood, probably.

----------


## RedBird

> Regarding the Titans episode, do you guys think Dick still has the moral high ground over Jason after what happened?


Unfortunately I haven't watched the show as of yet, I'm honestly not bothered by spoilers though, would you mind     describing the context of THAT scene in the latest episode? *spoilers:*
 specifically who was burned in the building that Dick allowed Kori to ignite
*end of spoilers*

Just so I can have better context to answer  :Smile:

----------


## kaimaciel

Can someone tell me how to hide the spoilers?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Can someone tell me how to hide the spoilers?


As in using them?

You just have to use the [SPOIL]  code.

Anyway, IIRC some people here suggested Red Devil and Jason meeting down the line. Well, I'm sad to say that HIC has just made such reunion non possible.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Unfortunately I haven't watched the show as of yet, I'm honestly not bothered by spoilers though, would you mind     describing the context of THAT scene in the latest episode? *spoilers:*
>  specifically who was burned in the building that Dick allowed Kori to ignite
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Just so I can have better context to answer


So...

*spoilers:*
 Dick told Kory to burn the entire Asylum, therefore killing the guards and bad doctors who were after them and Rachel, but also everyone who was inside, including other patients. Everyone on that building died under Dick's order. Time was of the essence and they had been tortured, but Dick still caused the death of a lot of people.
*end of spoilers*

Either Dick changes his tactics after becoming Nightwing, enforcing a zero tolerance for killing, or, my biggest fear, they'll turn Jason into a murderous psychopath who enjoys killing both criminals, cops and any innocents that get in the way, in order to show that Nightwing isn't as bad as the Red Hood.

----------


## Jackalope89

> So...
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Dick told Kory to burn the entire Asylum, therefore killing the guards and bad doctors who were after them and Rachel, but also everyone who was inside, including other patients. Everyone on that building died under Dick's order. Time was of the essence and they had been tortured, but Dick still caused the death of a lot of people.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Either Dick changes his tactics after becoming Nightwing, enforcing a zero tolerance for killing, or, my biggest fear, they'll turn Jason into a murderous psychopath who enjoys killing both criminals, cops and any innocents that get in the way, in order to show that Nightwing isn't as bad as the Red Hood.


Didn't they say earlier in the episode that the asylum was supposed to be shut down/abandoned officially? 

And going off of that, it may be safe to say that there may not have been other patients. And everyone working there was working for Raven's father.

----------


## Zaresh

> As in using them?
> 
> You just have to use the [SPOIL]  code.
> 
> Anyway, IIRC some people here suggested Red Devil and Jason meeting down the line. Well, I'm sad to say that HIC has just made such reunion non possible.


...
Really? Who's next? Just wondering how many characters they can kill for melodrama.

----------


## Zaresh

Oh, I didn't realize there could be other prisoners in there too. Fabulous.




> Either Dick changes his tactics after becoming Nightwing, enforcing a zero tolerance for killing, or, my biggest fear, they'll turn Jason into a murderous psychopath who enjoys killing both criminals, cops and any innocents that get in the way, in order to show that Nightwing isn't as bad as the Red Hood.


That's my biggest fear, actually.

----------


## Jackalope89

> ...
> Really? Who's next? Just wondering how many character they can kill for melodrama.


A number of D-list heroes bit it for shock value. The only non-D listers were Roy, Wally, and apparently Ivy. So far. And Tom King is Mary Sueing the crap out of Harley.

But from now on, I choose to ignore HIC.

----------


## Zaresh

> A number of D-list heroes bit it for shock value. The only non-D listers were Roy, Wally, and apparently Ivy. So far. And Tom King is Mary Sueing the crap out of Harley.
> 
> But from now on, I choose to ignore HIC.


I'm looking at the story from some distance, to be honest. A pity, because the art is beautiful as far as I see. And I liked the initial premise (the original one about a place for healing). I would even have liked the idea of a murder mystery story. Just... not like this. Somehow, it doesn't even caught my interest as a mystery to follow and solve after issue one. And as far as I've seen, it's too slow paced. I put Mister Miracle on hold after issue 3 for the same reason (and ended up not regretting such decision: sigh. I guess I'll read the whole story sometime in the near future). There is slow pacing and then there's a whole issue in which you barely get any new info, action (well, at least there were interactions between characters) or advance in the plot. Too decompressed for my tastes. And I suspect this is the same case with HiC.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I'm looking at the story from some distance, to be honest. A pity, because the art is beautiful as far as I see. And I liked the initial premise )the original one about a place for healing). I would even have liked the idea of a murder mystery story. Just... not like this. Somehow, it doesn't even caught my interest as a mystery to follow and solve after issue one. And as far as I've seen, it's too slow paced. I put Mister Miracle on hold after issue 3 for the same reason (and ended up not regretting such decision: sigh. I guess I'll read the whole story sometime in the near future). There is slow pacing and then there's a whole issue in which you barely get any new info, action (well, at least there were interactions between characters) or advance in the plot. Too decompressed for my tastes. And I suspect this is the same case with HiC.


Agreed. The initial premise sounded interesting, and a different direction. So what does DC do? Kills off a bunch of characters for shock value.

----------


## RedBird

> So...
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Dick told Kory to burn the entire Asylum, therefore killing the guards and bad doctors who were after them and Rachel, but also everyone who was inside, including other patients. Everyone on that building died under Dick's order. Time was of the essence and they had been tortured, but Dick still caused the death of a lot of people.
> *end of spoilers*
> 
> Either Dick changes his tactics after becoming Nightwing, enforcing a zero tolerance for killing, or, my biggest fear, they'll turn Jason into a murderous psychopath who enjoys killing both criminals, cops and any innocents that get in the way, in order to show that Nightwing isn't as bad as the Red Hood.



Yikes, yeah that's exactly what I fear as well. I know most people don't mind the whole 'f the police' attitude they have added onto Jason, and while contextually it makes sense he would feel resentful, that instance just showed that the creators are not above twisting his morals in order for Dick to seem 'not so bad' by comparison, Dick is the centerpiece of the show after all so everything else aligns with him, and throughout that episode its clear that Jason was meant to be a slight dark reflection of Dicks character to push him in the 'right direction'. Which if they continue this path, down the road, could lead to a _super villain_ version of Red Hood, IF they get that far with Jasons character.

*spoilers:*
I understand the show is darker and all with each character, especially Dick being more twisted and and fine with killing as the latest episode proved, and yeah, in a fair show of comparison Jasons actions from the episode prior don't seem as brutal now since he certainly didn't straight up murder anyone. However I mentioned way before that I can stomach morals being twisted so that the 'bad guys' get the short end of the stick, which is what happened right? Dick got the bad guys killed. Where as with Jason, he purposely targeted innocent people, just for the thrill, even in the context of his horrible experiences with police, the logic behind his actions seems illogical, why not target the police who were corrupt? What do these random officers from another city have anything to do with it? 
*end of spoilers*This is by far his most brutal as well as his most arrogant and injudicious portrayal. I like the cynicism, it works, as does the arrogance _to a degree_, like with his capabilities, (I guess I would be arrogant too if I managed to become as capable and skilled as my predecessor in only a year, anyone else notice that factor? It's impressive  :Big Grin: ) and I am glad his distrust of authority is intact too but they seem to be pushing it to new immoral territories, making his behavior out to be irresponsible, imprudent and power hungry. 

Now, with all that said, if this was a character flaw that the show was to address and give development on, I would TOTALLY be for that, I would love to see this factor of his character critically analysed in episodes, I'm all for characters struggling internally with their experiences to make the right moral decisions. But since we are pretty sure of Jasons future here as an even darker character, and that these elements are most likely just 'foreshadowing' his dark nature and the road downhill as opposed to presenting a flaw that will be addressed and fleshed out as the show proceeds, its why I'm kinda against it.

I won't dwell on it any longer though, it is what it is, and I would rather get to watch the show and enjoy it for myself. In fact I almost feel kinda bad for harping on this at all, since honestly the rest of the show seems *great*, anything else I have seen from Jasons portrayal seems golden, genuinely charming in a devil may care way, with a bit of sardonic humor on top, plus I'm loving Currans enthusiasm. But yeah, it's just what these additions to the characters represent that's got me dissatisfied. As Dicks moral compass slides, I fear Jasons will slide further to align. Hopefully as you mentioned the show will push Dick to enforce his no kill policy down the track so that his and everyone elses morals can be realigned properly and hopefully IF/till that happens, Jason might get to be in more episodes, and maybe even last a season or 2? I'm still excited to see his Robin regardless.

How is that poll going btw, I'm not in America so I can't tell.

----------


## KC93

> How is that poll going btw, I'm not in America so I can't tell.


Capture.jpg

Here's how it is at the moment.

----------


## RedBird

> Capture.jpg
> 
> Here's how it is at the moment.


Oh sweet, thanks for that  :Smile: 

Also wow, I guess the public is more in Jasons favor, and this is in addition to the people voting for death who DO like his character and just want to see him as Red Hood. Not that I think this poll will influence anything in reality or speed up any sort of process in the Titans narrative, but it's interesting to see the reactions and votes regardless.

If you don't mind me asking, when does this vote end? Has it ended already? Or is there no date given so far?

----------


## KC93

> If you don't mind me asking, when does this vote end? Has it ended already? Or is there no date given so far?


I'm not sure when it ends. It doesn't give any date. :Smile:

----------


## Zaresh

> Yikes, yeah that's exactly what I fear as well. I know most people don't mind the whole 'f the police' attitude they have added onto Jason, and while contextually it makes sense he would feel resentful, that instance just showed that the creators are not above twisting his morals in order for Dick to seem 'not so bad' by comparison, Dick is the centerpiece of the show after all so everything else aligns with him, and throughout that episode its clear that Jason was meant to be a slight dark reflection of Dicks character to push him in the 'right direction'. Which if they continue this path, down the road, could lead to a _super villain_ version of Red Hood, IF they get that far with Jasons character.
> 
> I understand the show is darker and all with each character, especially Dick being more twisted and and fine with killing as the latest episode proved, and yeah, in a fair show of comparison Jasons actions from the episode prior don't seem as brutal now since he certainly didn't straight up murder anyone. However I mentioned way before that I can stomach morals being twisted so that the 'bad guys' get the short end of the stick, which is what happened right? Dick got the bad guys killed. Where as with Jason, he purposely targeted innocent people, just for the thrill, even in the context of his horrible experiences with police, the logic behind his actions seems illogical, why not target the police who were corrupt? What do these random officers from another city have anything to do with it? This is by far his most brutal as well as his most arrogant and injudicious portrayal. I like the cynicism, it works, as does the arrogance _to a degree_, like with his capabilities, (I guess I would be arrogant too if I managed to become as capable and skilled as my predecessor in only a year, anyone else notice that factor? It's impressive ) and I am glad his distrust of authority is intact too but they seem to be pushing it to new immoral territories, making his behavior out to be irresponsible, imprudent and power hungry. 
> 
> Now, with all that said, if this was a character flaw that the show was to address and give development on, I would TOTALLY be for that, I would love to see this factor of his character critically analysed in episodes, I'm all for characters struggling internally with their experiences to make the right moral decisions. But since we are pretty sure of Jasons future here as an even darker character, and that these elements are most likely just 'foreshadowing' his dark nature and the road downhill as opposed to presenting a flaw that will be addressed and fleshed out as the show proceeds, its why I'm kinda against it.
> 
> I won't dwell on it any longer though, it is what it is, and I would rather get to watch the show and enjoy it for myself. In fact I almost feel kinda bad for harping on this at all, since honestly the rest of the show seems *great*, anything else I have seen from Jasons portrayal seems golden, genuinely charming in a devil may care way, with a bit of sardonic humor on top, plus I'm loving Currans enthusiasm. But yeah, it's just what these additions to the characters represent that's got me dissatisfied. As Dicks moral compass slides, I fear Jasons will slide further to align. Hopefully as you mentioned the show will push Dick to enforce his no kill policy down the track so that his and everyone elses morals can be realigned properly and hopefully IF/till that happens, Jason might get to be in more episodes, and maybe even last a season or 2? I'm still excited to see his Robin regardless.
> 
> How is that poll going btw, I'm not in America so I can't tell.


*spoilers:*
Keep in mind that Dick didn't "get" they killed by chance or by omision. He had already beat a dozen of security guard to a messy cold pulp, knew there where more people  inside (the scientist at least) and afterwards, asked, without an actual question, a bit roundabout, but asked in any case, Kori to blow up with fire and gass the whole building in the same place the beaten guys where lying on the ground. It was awfully cold.
*end of spoilers*

In the end, we can only watch. Last episode supposedly has some Jason too, and Dick has yet to met Clark, I think? Or remember him or something, for his new heroic name and persona. I'm guessing we will have a better gist of what we can expect of their (Dick and Jason's) relative stands by the season finale.

----------


## RedBird

> *spoilers:*
> Keep in mind that Dick didn't "get" they killed by chance or by omision. He had already beat a dozen of security guard to a messy cold pulp, knew there where more people  inside (the scientist at least) and afterwards, asked, without an actual question, a bit roundabout, but asked in any case, Kori to blow up with fire and gass the whole building in the same place the beaten guys where lying on the ground. It was awfully cold.
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
I know, it was straight up murder, and I'm not saying I'm necessarily totally okay with that change in Dicks moral either, just that it's easier for me to stomach a good guy killing _bad guys_, as opposed to a good guy even just _hurting innocents_. THAT change in Jasons moral, extending from hurting or killing 'bad guys' to hurting innocent people whether it contextually makes sense or not rubs me the wrong way. 
*end of spoilers* And as I said since the show is hinting at Jasons dark nature, I'm unsure if we'll see any this issue be explored with any nuance or internal conflict within the character or whether it's just presented as a 'warning sign' to the audience that Jasons just a bad apple.

----------


## RedBird

@AzoriaWolf



@ValeriaFavoccia



Branch56



_Jason Todd: Chief Business Officer_

He looks like he owns a Casino in that last one XD

----------


## Arsenal

Last one reminds me of Charlie Cox’s Daredevil

----------


## Jackalope89

Jason, why do you let yourself get talked into these sorts of things? Though, its slightly less awkward than Power Girl's outfit at least.

[IMG]https://d.*************story_parts/210081464/images/142ae378862a5af1.jpg[/IMG]

----------


## RedBird

> Last one reminds me of Charlie Coxs Daredevil


Funny that, someone in the posts comments mentioned that he looked like the lovechild of Matt (Cox) and Tony Stark XD

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

So in Batman Beyond we got the return of the infamous Crowbar.

----------


## Zaresh

> So in Batman Beyond we got the return of the infamous Crowbar.


At this point, Joker's Crowbar should have his own wikipedia's page.

----------


## Zaresh

> Funny that, someone in the posts comments mentioned that he looked like the lovechild of Matt (Cox) and Tony Stark XD


He certainly looks smooth (and hot) enough.

----------


## G-Potion

> @AzoriaWolf
> 
> @ValeriaFavoccia
> 
> Branch56


Vastly different styles but all of them are so pretty.  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> Jason, why do you let yourself get talked into these sorts of things? Though, its slightly less awkward than Power Girl's outfit at least.


What can he do. The ladies he associates with are just too powerful to say no to. :P

----------


## G-Potion

http://snackage.tumblr.com/post/90188646245

----------


## G-Potion

Sean Gordon Murphy talking about Jason in the White Knight verse. 

http://dailyjasontodd.tumblr.com/pos...t-jason-in-the

----------


## Sergard

> Anyway, IIRC some people here suggested Red Devil and Jason meeting down the line. Well, I'm sad to say that HIC has just made such reunion non possible.


It does not even make sense that Red Devil is in Sanctuary. It does not add up with his appearence in Raven: Daughter of Darkness. At least I had the feeling that he was bound to some place and could only leave it by being summoned. I'm so mad right now. DC could have easily put Eddie in RHatO. Jason and Eddie already know each other.

*spoilers:*
And what is the first thing you see of Eddie in HiC? His dead body lying on the ground. That's so sad. And he is not the only one who got wasted. I've no idea who Nemesis and Solstice are but they look fucking badass on the last page.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Margaret

Woa, just discovered this thread. I'm so glad. Jason always needs more appreciation. Btw, anybody here watches Titans? I heard Jason is there and I wanted to watch it, but can anyone tell me if they make Jason the "bad" Robin there too?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Woa, just discovered this thread. I'm so glad. Jason always needs more appreciation. Btw, anybody here watches Titans? I heard Jason is there and I wanted to watch it, but can anyone tell me if they make Jason the "bad" Robin there too?


Without spoilers, let's just say Titans takes a darker (and generally aged up) version of the New Teen Titans characters.

----------


## Margaret

> Without spoilers, let's just say Titans takes a darker (and generally aged up) version of the New Teen Titans characters.


Is it any good?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Is it any good?


Once you get used to the tone of the show? Yeah, its pretty good. I will say, the last episode left a number of questions going forward though.

----------


## Zaresh

> Woa, just discovered this thread. I'm so glad. Jason always needs more appreciation. Btw, anybody here watches Titans? I heard Jason is there and I wanted to watch it, but can anyone tell me if they make Jason the "bad" Robin there too?


Welcome @Margaret!
We're a few here who watch Titans. So far, and in the context of what the show is (a very grim and dark take of the DCU), Jason is alright. But we were discussing a few pages earlier how the violence in the case f Dick could affect the transition of Jason from his initial Robin phase to his Later Robin and Red Hood personality and behaviour.

And the show is good, I think. Nothing extraordinary, but I think it's entertaining, with good action scenes, nice interaction between the characters and an interesting story.

----------


## Margaret

> Welcome @Margaret!
> We're a few here who watch Titans. So far, and in the context of what the show is (a very grim and dark take of the DCU), Jason is alright. But we were discussing a few pages earlier how the violence in the case f Dick could affect the transition of Jason from his initial Robin phase to his Later Robin and Red Hood personality and behaviour.
> 
> And the show is good, I think. Nothing extraordinary, but I think it's entertaining, with good action scenes, nice interaction between the characters and an interesting story.


Thank you. It's kind of weird how DC still didn't get the memo that DC fans aren't that fond of grim and dark take of the universe. Oh well, I don't mind dark tone as long as the content is good. I've been seeing bits and pieces of the show here and there and so far I think the general consensus is that the show isn't bad, but not that good either  :Stick Out Tongue:  Guess I'm still going to check it out. After all, it's the first live action Jason we've got

----------


## Jackalope89

> Thank you. It's kind of weird how DC still didn't get the memo that DC fans aren't that fond of grim and dark take of the universe. Oh well, I don't mind dark tone as long as the content is good. I've been seeing bits and pieces of the show here and there and so far I think the general consensus is that the show isn't bad, but not that good either  Guess I'm still going to check it out. After all, it's the first live action Jason we've got


The show has some really good moments, particularly the Doom Patrol episode and Hawk & Dove episode.

And, I'd hold off on the "shipping" thing when it comes to Rachel (Raven). The actress is 13. The next youngest on the show, the actor that played Jason, is 20.

----------


## oasis1313

> Woa, just discovered this thread. I'm so glad. Jason always needs more appreciation. Btw, anybody here watches Titans? I heard Jason is there and I wanted to watch it, but can anyone tell me if they make Jason the "bad" Robin there too?


I thought they did a good job with Jason; it wasn't uncomplimentary or demeaning to the character--he is shown as very young and just starting out on the road Dick has traveled before him.  The young actor, Curran, who played Jason was fantastic and I'm hoping we see him again.

----------


## RedBird

DEXTER SOY
The OFFICIAL Red Ronin Helmet which done in collaboration with @Cosplus3D 
You can orders yours via Etsy

----------


## RedBird

Also, comes with glowy eyes

----------


## RedBird

maduvaa

----------


## G-Potion

> Woa, just discovered this thread. I'm so glad. Jason always needs more appreciation. Btw, anybody here watches Titans? I heard Jason is there and I wanted to watch it, but can anyone tell me if they make Jason the "bad" Robin there too?


I'm still waiting to watch it on Netflix so I don't have much to contribute to this topic. Just wanna say hi, and welcome!  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

> DEXTER SOY
> The OFFICIAL Red Ronin Helmet which done in collaboration with @Cosplus3D 
> You can orders yours via Etsy


Looking great! No really, I don't know if it's the design or that they mold it just right but this is one of the few RH helmets that looks like it fits pretty well on your head.

----------


## RedBird

> Looking great! No really, I don't know if it's the design or that they mold it just right but this is one of the few RH helmets that looks like it fits pretty well on your head.


Right? It doesn't look too enlarged like a lot of others I've seen. Might have to do with the assembly, if you follow the etsy link you see that the helmet actually comes in several parts that you put together rather than slipping it on like a biker helmet.

----------


## Zaresh

> Right? It doesn't look too enlarged like a lot of others I've seen. Might have to do with the assembly, if you follow the etsy link you see that the helmet actually comes in several parts that you put together rather than slipping it on like a biker helmet.


Yeah, but I was wondering, how much can you see? Not only because the eye holes are small, but because the glowing eyes (which I'm guessing are LEDs, which are cold lights). I guess the LEDs are up over the eyebrows and the light is reflected by the lenses? In any case it's a really cool helmet  :Big Grin: .

----------


## RedBird

Quincy-Sue

----------


## G-Potion

Oh I love this! Rocafort hair and classic UTH costume is just A++.

----------


## Jackalope89



----------


## Celgress

> 


LOL, classic Jason so modest.  :Wink:

----------


## Celgress

> Quincy-Sue


They make a cute couple, but I still prefer Jason/Artemis.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

New art by JJMK:

----------


## Jackalope89

He's... not wrong.

----------


## Celgress

> He's... not wrong.


LMAO, indeed he is and she does.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Alycat

Man, Supergirl/Jason was such a missed opportunity. Also I forgot how awful that Supergirl outfit was.

----------


## Zaresh

> Man, Supergirl/Jason was such a missed opportunity. Also I forgot how awful that Supergirl outfit was.


Agree to both.
Hey, @Alycat, it's just me or were you out for a while? Welcome back if it realy is the case!

----------


## Sergard

> Man, Supergirl/Jason was such a missed opportunity. Also I forgot how awful that Supergirl outfit was.


Which outfit do you mean? The one with the skirt in the fanart or the one from the comic panel?

I'd like Supergirl to show up in RHatO when Artemis and Biz are back. I'm sure Bizarro would like to meet and bond with at least some members of the Super family.
I don't know Kara's character/personality, so I can't say if she and Jason could ever be friends.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Which outfit do you mean? The one with the skirt in the fanart or the one from the comic panel?
> 
> I'd like Supergirl to show up in RHatO when Artemis and Biz are back. I'm sure Bizarro would like to meet and bond with at least some members of the Super family.
> I don't know Kara's character/personality, so I can't say if she and Jason could ever be friends.


Well, I only know her by her Rebirth and classic personalities, and only heard rumors of her New52 personality when she first popped up.

New52, early on, she was a hothead. Even a Red Lantern for a time. But before and after, fairly similar to Superman's personality. Though Rebirth seemed to separate her and Jason's ages by a couple more years. Jason seems to be early 20s, Kara is in her mid to late teens (about 16 and in high school, or was until Bendis took over the Super line).

----------


## RedBird

MarcusTo



_'J likes his plushies'_

----------


## RedBird

Zai-l

----------


## Sergard

That's exactly my kind of humor. Source

----------


## Sergard



----------


## Jackalope89

> 


Dick- Jason! We're trying to get Damian AWAY from lethal revenge!
Jason- I don't hear anything about maiming them though...

----------


## kaimaciel

> He's... not wrong.


I sorta of ship them, tbh. I think they would work well together.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I sorta of ship them, tbh. I think they would work well together.


Not the worst ship I've heard of (but, that's a low bar you don't want to beat). Though with Rebirth, it seems Kara's age was rolled back to about 16-17, and Jason is 20-21 or so.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Not the worst ship I've heard of (but, that's a low bar you don't want to beat). Though with Rebirth, it seems Kara's age was rolled back to about 16-17, and Jason is 20-21 or so.


There's not oficial age for Jason but he can't be older than Dick, who last time I checked was 21, so Jason would be 18-20.

----------


## Jackalope89

> There's not oficial age for Jason but he can't be older than Dick, who last time I checked was 21, so Jason would be 18-20.


I thought Dick was mid-20s?

----------


## Zaresh

> There's not oficial age for Jason but he can't be older than Dick, who last time I checked was 21, so Jason would be 18-20.


Last time we had an official age for current Dick, it was 25 in a fill-in story.
General consensus, though, is that he's now 23, I think.
We had a freshman-college Dick while Jason was still a teen as Robin, asking where the toilet paper roll whas xd.

----------


## Sergard

Another page of the Supergirl story with Jason. Kara can really be scary sometimes. And I have a soft spot for Jason's sudden disappearances. Even if they are nothing more than pure comic relief. But I associate them with Jason's time as Robin.

----------


## Jackalope89

You know, if and when Kara is ever old enough, her being a pseudo-member of the Outlaws would be interesting. She's not really a black sheep, like most members tend to be, but there have been times she has felt out of place on Earth due to her coming from and growing up on Krypton.

----------


## Margaret

> Last time we had an official age for current Dick, it was 25 in a fill-in story.
> General consensus, though, is that he's now 23, I think.
> We had a freshman-college Dick while Jason was still a teen as Robin, asking where the toilet paper roll whas xd.


DC timeline is weird with all the retcons, plus they have a thing against aging their characters. Dick was originally 6-8 yrs older than Jason who was supposed to be only 2-3 yrs older than Tim. Most people agree that Dick is somewhere in his mid 20s while Jason is anywhere from 19-early 20s (Not that it matters, most artists draw him like middle aged men anyway). Tim was 16-17 when Damian became Robin. Damian is 12-13 now and Tim is still 16. Guess we should just ignore canon if you don't want to have a headache.

----------


## Zaresh

> DC timeline is weird with all the retcons, plus they have a thing against aging their characters. Dick was originally 6-8 yrs older than Jason who was supposed to be only 2-3 yrs older than Tim. Most people agree that Dick is somewhere in his mid 20s while Jason is anywhere from 19-early 20s (Not that it matters, most artists draw him like middle aged men anyway). Tim was 16-17 when Damian became Robin. Damian is 12-13 now and Tim is still 16. Guess we should just ignore canon if you don't want to have a headache.


Oh, I usually ignore it, and often advice other to do the same. But it was asked and I remembered what the status was as the most recent timeline goes. Both bits of info are from Nightwing current run, so it is kind of worth beong pointed.

But yeah. Also, if not even the writers and editors seem to give it too much of a thought, it seems a bit of a waste of an effort to give it myself, as fun as it can be at times  \o/ (like any puzzle is)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://twitter.com/saladinahmed/sta...71252296683520

Bizarro is showing up on January's "Mysteries of Love in Space"

Whether is our Bizarro or a different one, is anyone's guess.

----------


## RedBird

I have no idea how true this is since the source is just IMDB, but, it's got Curran Walters listed for like 17 episodes, including this seasons episode 10, 11 an 12.



Either the story has more of Robin 2.0 than previously thought, or this is a hell of a lot of wishful thinking from a fan.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

Scott McDaniel Commission



Okay this piece is genuinely hilarious Hahaha
I love all the little details, like the mix of villains and family members calling in, the fact that it actually is a majority *'LIVE'* vote in Robin Jasons favor, but then you have Red Hood Jason in the background trying to sabotage the numbers and make the LIVE counter lower. XD

----------


## G-Potion

Haha that's awesome and charming as hell! Jason what's wrong with you. XD

----------


## RedBird

[x]



Awwww so cute
I want all these plushies

----------


## RedBird

So I'm obviously not 100% since I can't watch Titans as of yet but I have a question...

*spoilers:*
Little birdy told me that Jason gets a strange mention in this weeks episode. Raven basically communicates with the comatose Dove who actually wakes up in this episode with a message, telling Hawk, that they need to find Jason Todd. Why? Not sure honestly. Can someone who actually watches the show confirm that?

Also can you confirm that Donna Troy is as fantastic in the show as she seems in the few clips I've seen. Cause I love her portrayal already.  :Stick Out Tongue:  
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Zaresh

> Scott McDaniel Commission
> 
> 
> 
> Okay this piece is genuinely hilarious Hahaha
> I love all the little details, like the mix of villains and family members calling in, the fact that it actually is a majority *'LIVE'* vote in Robin Jasons favor, but then you have Red Hood Jason in the background trying to sabotage the numbers and make the LIVE counter lower. XD


Ha! This one should be a poster, honestly.

----------


## Arsenal

> So I'm obviously not 100% since I can't watch Titans as of yet but I have a question...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Little birdy told me that Jason gets a strange mention in this weeks episode. Raven basically communicates with the comatose Dove who actually wakes up in this episode with a message, telling Hawk, that they need to find Jason Todd. Why? Not sure honestly. Can someone who actually watches the show confirm that?
> 
> Also can you confirm that Donna Troy is as fantastic in the show as she seems in the few clips I've seen. Cause I love her portrayal already.  
> *end of spoilers*


Can confirm about Donna Troy being fantastic. Can’t cofnirm anything else.

----------


## Jackalope89

> So I'm obviously not 100% since I can't watch Titans as of yet but I have a question...
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Little birdy told me that Jason gets a strange mention in this weeks episode. Raven basically communicates with the comatose Dove who actually wakes up in this episode with a message, telling Hawk, that they need to find Jason Todd. Why? Not sure honestly. Can someone who actually watches the show confirm that?
> 
> Also can you confirm that Donna Troy is as fantastic in the show as she seems in the few clips I've seen. Cause I love her portrayal already.  
> *end of spoilers*


I can second that Donna is awesome. Not a romantic interest for Dick (sorry shippers), but she's more like Dick's older sister than anything. Haven't seen the latest episode yet though.

----------


## G-Potion

> [x]
> 
> 
> 
> Awwww so cute
> I want all these plushies


I find it funny that this is probably the third time I see AK being the one crying in an artwork with multiple Jasons. XD

----------


## kaimaciel

> Scott McDaniel Commission
> 
> 
> 
> Okay this piece is genuinely hilarious Hahaha
> I love all the little details, like the mix of villains and family members calling in, the fact that it actually is a majority *'LIVE'* vote in Robin Jasons favor, but then you have Red Hood Jason in the background trying to sabotage the numbers and make the LIVE counter lower. XD


This is so awesome! I love all the little details. Red Hood trying to lower the "Live" votes is interesting. As if he's afraid he won't exist without his death.

----------


## Arsenal

> Can confirm about Donna Troy being fantastic. Can’t cofnirm anything else.


Just watched the episode. Can confirm both things RedBird said are accurate.

----------


## Zaresh

> I find it funny that this is probably the third time I see AK being the one crying in an artwork with multiple Jasons. XD


Understable. He has had the shortest stick, I think. He didn't even get to die, the poor kid.

(XD)

----------


## Sergard

Something for the crying AK artwork collection xD - and Tanuki(?) Roy (source, warning: also contains "sexy" stuff)
There is also a short comic strip in Korean that I don't understand, but it's with three alternate Jasons and looks very fun.)



Also same source: cat Deathstroke



I really like the artist because Jason is always so cute.

----------


## RedBird

> Can confirm about Donna Troy being fantastic. Cant cofnirm anything else.





> I can second that Donna is awesome. Not a romantic interest for Dick (sorry shippers), but she's more like Dick's older sister than anything. Haven't seen the latest episode yet though.


Sooo super glad to hear that, she seems so damn cool and lovable from the clips, I'm really excited to see this incarnation. When it comes to Dick and Donna, to me, they have/had one of the best m/f platonic relationships within comics, so I'm doubly excited to hear that their bond in the show is very much like siblings, with Donna as the older sister no less.





> Just watched the episode. Can confirm both things RedBird said are accurate.


Ah! Thank you for that, so Jason IS coming back to the show, perhaps that prediction he would be in more episodes was truer than I initially thought.

----------


## RedBird

kaylabeemarie
Bruce and Jay



This is so cute
I also would LOVE a snow globe of Gotham.

----------


## Zaresh

> kaylabeemarie
> Bruce and Jay
> 
> 
> 
> This is so cute
> I also would LOVE a snow globe of Gotham.


Lovely and warm work :3.

The question is... would it come with a batsignal?

----------


## RedBird

[x]



How has Jason gone this long without possessing at least one stylish fur collar coat by now.

----------


## G-Potion

> kaylabeemarie
> Bruce and Jay
> 
> 
> 
> This is so cute
> I also would LOVE a snow globe of Gotham.


This artist just draws fantastic family moments.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## G-Potion

> [x]
> 
> 
> 
> How has Jason gone this long without possessing at least one stylish fur collar coat by now.


One of the thing I always wanted to see is a Jason Todd/FFVIII mashup so that I can have Jason in a fur collar jacket, wielding gunblade and playing Triple Triad. :P

----------


## Zaresh

> One of the thing I always wanted to see is a Jason Todd/FFVIII mashup so that I can have Jason in a fur collar jacket, wielding gunblade and playing Triple Triad. :P


Damn, Triple Triad, that was the best minigame yet to this date. The best part of that game (it was so easy to cheat the game itself and break the afinities system to be about just untouchable when you get how it really worked. But the minigame was a challenge). Oh! And the world map music track, "blue fiellds" was great too. And Laguna.

----------


## Margaret

> I find it funny that this is probably the third time I see AK being the one crying in an artwork with multiple Jasons. XD


Makes sense. As horrible as ComicJason's life is (no matter which iteration), AK is still the worst. Ironic because that's literally the only universe that he didn't die.

----------


## G-Potion

> Damn, Triple Triad, that was the best minigame yet to this date. The best part of that game (it was so easy to cheat the game itself and break the afinities system to be about just untouchable when you get how it really worked. But the minigame was a challenge). Oh! And the world map music track, "blue fiellds" was great too. And Laguna.


I still love the system though. I mean, at least between the draw system, GF refining abilities, card game and the chocobo minigame, you have multiple ways to get spells so the road to become ridiculously overpowered is more entertaining than just grinding for hours. Agree on Blue Fields. It gives you such a sense of vastness and loneliness as you run across continents. Laguna is such a great character it makes me regret that the game couldn't follow through its initial vision of having dual protagonists. In addition, the sound effects in this game is just ridiculously good.

----------


## Zaresh

> I still love the system though. I mean, at least between the draw system, GF refining abilities, card game and the chocobo minigame, you have multiple ways to get spells so the road to become ridiculously overpowered is more entertaining than just grinding for hours.


True that, at least it was fun. Not many RPGs give you multiple ways to overpower your enemies. I think the last one for me was Xenoblade for the Wii.




> Agree on Blue Fields. It gives you such a sense of vastness and loneliness as you run across continents.


Try looking for the Fithos Lusec album version. I had to review that album for a website years ago, and its Blue Fields version was even better: maginified, for a better word.




> Laguna is such a great character it makes me regret that the game couldn't follow through its initial vision of having dual protagonists. In addition, the sound effects in this game is just ridiculously good.


Riiiiiiighht? 
Those flashbacks felt too short, damn.

And funny enough, I remember some old reviews back in the day that didn't appreciate the (many, often used) sound effects. Which is a pitty. This game and Vagrant Story both had a nice, unnapreciated repertoire.

Also, even if the game was very, very linear, it was subtle enough to not make you notice until the last disc (or maybe the second to last? I dont't remember which one was, but even when it did give you some free moves, they weren't many, not even a hand of different things to do at the same point).

4 and 9 (for different reasons) are my most liked; but 8 had a lot of good things that made it a better game than what people tend to believe it was.

----------


## RedBird

> I find it funny that this is probably the third time I see AK being the one crying in an artwork with multiple Jasons. XD


I love these kinds of 'multiple versions of character' art pieces, they're always pretty fun and give insight into how people view each iteration of the character. And yeah, poor AKJay is always the one that seems the most hurt and teary. I guess Rocksteady really drove the message home to people that _this_ Jason has had a _really_ rough life.

Another one I'm noticing popping up more and more is any piece that is new enough to include Rebirth Jason (specifically start of rebirth not current). He seems to be the one that's usually giving comfort/empathy or being more responsible than the other Jasons. It appeared in a JJMK piece, that plushie piece from before, and in this one too.


[x]



I'm glad to see Lobdell drove the message home that Jason has started more openly expressing his empathy for others and visibly maturing. 
I miss his brotherly relationship with Biz

----------


## G-Potion

And this one by https://twitter.com/fade_unlimited that Sergard mentioned. Crying AK and comforting Rebirth Jay as expected. UTH Jay being a troll is also no surprise. XD

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Full numbers are out until Monday but Issue 28 managed to held the #83th spot on the top 100 best selling comics for November. So I'd say we're looking roughly at 30k copies over/under 1000 sold.

https://www.previewsworld.com/Articl...Selling-Comics

This proves the higher numbers last month weren't simply due the foil cover comic and puts the series in a rising streak for 4 issues straight.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Medri draws Jason new dudes and he continues to be as good as an artist as ever.

----------


## Zaresh

> Full numbers are out until Monday but Issue 28 managed to held the #83th spot on the top 100 best selling comics for November. So I'd say we're looking roughly at 30k copies over/under 1000 sold.
> 
> https://www.previewsworld.com/Articl...Selling-Comics
> 
> This proves the higher numbers last month weren't simply due the foil cover comic and puts the series in a rising streak for 4 issues straight.


Good. I'm kind of on awe, to be honest. I cannot believe the book has gained so many readers in the middle or its run. I know you can say that it's almost like we had a relaunch, but still, I think this is very unusual. Wow.

----------


## Sergard

Can anyone translate the Korean fanart? I'm curious what the different Jasons say.

Cool that RHatO held its spot. And I see that Deathstroke is doing better again (rank #61). I still don't understand why the title did so bad in October (#94) compared to September (#64).

And a little off-topic: Does anybody know why Rise hasn't been online for the last few weeks?

----------


## Zaresh

> > 83. RED HOOD OUTLAW #28 (DC) - 24,485 [85]


It seems that in the end Red Hood is back to the 25k mark. But hey, still better than where we were a few months back. And we did rise a few positions in the list.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Bad month in general for comic books, everything went down compared to last month. Still, not bad for Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> And a little off-topic: Does anybody know why Rise hasn't been online for the last few weeks?


No idea. But this isn't the first time Rise went off for a while so maybe we'll see Rise pop up later; that and I figure a lot people would be too busy this time of the year to visit the forum. Aioros22 however, I'm getting more worried that his ban might be a permanent ban given how long it has been.

----------


## G-Potion

> It seems that in the end Red Hood is back to the 25k mark. But hey, still better than where we were a few months back. And we did rise a few positions in the list.


Good, good. With the plot picking up, really hoping readers stay and the momentum continues for a while.

----------


## Zaresh

> No idea. But this isn't the first time Rise went off for a while so maybe we'll see Rise pop up later; that and I figure a lot people would be too busy this time of the year to visit the forum. Aioros22 however, I'm getting more worried that his ban might be a permanent ban given how long it has been.


I agree. It's starting to worry me too :/.




> Good, good. With the plot picking up, really hoping readers stay and the momentum continues for a while.


Yeeep. I only hope they waited for issue 29,  which is where the plot kicks in again (most reviews for 28 were commenting on  how little the plot had advanced then, even if they enjoyed the action). We will see next month, I guess. I'm hopeful.

----------


## RedBird

Dexter Soy

----------


## RedBird

> No idea. But this isn't the first time Rise went off for a while so maybe we'll see Rise pop up later; that and I figure a lot people would be too busy this time of the year to visit the forum. Aioros22 however, I'm getting more worried that his ban might be a permanent ban given how long it has been.


I'm with you, I'm definately missing Rises presence here but not outright worried about them yet. Aioros22s disappearence is definitely troubling now that its been so long.  :Frown:

----------


## AJpyro

> No idea. But this isn't the first time Rise went off for a while so maybe we'll see Rise pop up later; that and I figure a lot people would be too busy this time of the year to visit the forum. Aioros22 however, I'm getting more worried that his ban might be a permanent ban given how long it has been.


What happened to Aioros?

----------


## G-Potion

> What happened to Aioros?


Let's just say discussions got heated when Lobdell got put on Dick's book and Aioros22 was banned because his comments and support for the book upset some people.

----------


## Sergard

I wouldn't even know what to do if I were banned. Maybe I'd write a user like Zaresh who has their Tumblr linked in the signature so that you all know what's going on. Or is there a simpler solution?
Can't Aioros22 create a new account if they don't get their old one back? And I hope you people are right and Rise simply takes a break.

On another topic: Philip Tan posted end of November this Red Hood sketch. Does that mean that this will be the variant cover of RHatO #30?

----------


## G-Potion

> Dexter Soy


Neat! I'm dying for more Red Hood Ninja stuff from Soy.

----------


## G-Potion

> Can't Aioros22 create a new account if they don't get their old one back? And I hope you people are right and Rise simply takes a break.


I wonder if you're banned, will they let you know for how long? I suppose Aioros could make a new account. Whether he wants to though is another story. 




> On another topic: Philip Tan posted end of November this Red Hood sketch. Does that mean that this will be the variant cover of RHatO #30?


Now that's a cool artwork. If it turns out to be a variant, the costume choice has me intrigued. Why not his current getup? In any case, I really like the army of one look here, and I dig that Philip Tan included the knife sheath that Jason had in his Injustice costume.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I wonder if you're banned, will they let you know for how long? I suppose Aioros could make a new account. Whether he wants to though is another story.


I don't know if that's possible  :Frown:  

I once tried to create another account with a different email and that account got erased in 30 minutes. If the ban is permanent, we need to check their previous posts. If they're banned, a BANNED sign will appear under their icon. It happened once on the Loki thread when a user posted a naked Lady Loki commission, we never saw her again.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I wouldn't even know what to do if I were banned. Maybe I'd write a user like Zaresh who has their Tumblr linked in the signature so that you all know what's going on. Or is there a simpler solution?
> Can't Aioros22 create a new account if they don't get their old one back? And I hope you people are right and Rise simply takes a break.
> 
> On another topic: Philip Tan posted end of November this Red Hood sketch. Does that mean that this will be the variant cover of RHatO #30?


Is tagged as commision, so probably is not.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I wonder if you're banned, will they let you know for how long? I suppose Aioros could make a new account.





> I don't know if that's possible  
> 
> I once tried to create another account with a different email and that account got erased in 30 minutes. If the ban is permanent, we need to check their previous posts. If they're banned, a BANNED sign will appear under their icon. It happened once on the Loki thread when a user posted a naked Lady Loki commission, we never saw her again.


Never really been banned, but from what I can gather, it depends on the forums. I think the banned person gets told why they're banned and for what lengths, but if so, that's between that poster and the admins/moderators.

I do know that creating another account after you've been banned is against the rules of pretty much all forums and etc. that can place bans. They call it ban evasion, which is usually explicitly against the rules of places. It directly contradicts the ban decision, and in some places might get your account ban to something more permanent if it wasn't already and also your IP Address banned, too.

----------


## Zaresh

> Never really been banned, but from what I can gather, it depends on the forums. I think the banned person gets told why they're banned and for what lengths, but if so, that's between that poster and the admins/moderators.
> 
> I do know that creating another account after you've been banned is against the rules of pretty much all forums and etc. that can place bans. They call it ban evasion, which is usually explicitly against the rules of places. It directly contradicts the ban decision, and in some places might get your account ban to something more permanent if it wasn't already and also your IP Address banned, too.


With static and public IPs, it's easy to ban someone permanently. You can work a roundabout by connecting through a proxy server, I think. But then you would have to pretend you're a new user entirely. It's a tough thing to do if the mods are efficient and dedicated. To be honest, I never liked to ban people, it mess with the mood of the whole forum (but then, I never got to admin or moderate a forum or an IRC channel this big. Fortunately), but I've done some. I have been banned for short times and definitely, creating some sort of communication with the other users outside the own community medium is a good idea; it's how I got to recover my user earlier than expected (I was banned for a mistake, or a bad stupid decision I made, or a misunderstanding) and how I lifted some of those bans I did.

That commission looks sick good (face-helmet or not). So many great commissioned pieces lately :3.

----------


## G-Potion

> Never really been banned, but from what I can gather, it depends on the forums. I think the banned person gets told why they're banned and for what lengths, but if so, that's between that poster and the admins/moderators.
> 
> I do know that creating another account after you've been banned is against the rules of pretty much all forums and etc. that can place bans. They call it ban evasion, which is usually explicitly against the rules of places. It directly contradicts the ban decision, and in some places might get your account ban to something more permanent if it wasn't already and also your IP Address banned, too.


That's what I would expect usually. But since my current account is actually the second one I created; the first one was banned by mistake or something as I hadn't posted anything on it at all to have violated any rules. I thought maybe it's different here somehow.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> No idea. But this isn't the first time Rise went off for a while so maybe we'll see Rise pop up later; that and I figure a lot people would be too busy this time of the year to visit the forum. Aioros22 however, I'm getting more worried that his ban might be a permanent ban given how long it has been.


It seems you can send an email through his profile. Perhaps try that.

https://community.cbr.com/member.php?5731-Aioros22

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Seems like Woods isn't leaving anytime soon
https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...657310208?s=19

And not liking the "major changes ahead" bit.

----------


## magpieM

> Seems like Woods isn't leaving anytime soon
> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...657310208?s=19
> 
> And not liking the "major changes ahead" bit.


"Major changes ahead and lots of fun stuff to draw" --> _Fun stuff_, regarding Wingman perhaps?

----------


## G-Potion

Major changes in the next arc? I wonder whether Wingman plot will be concluded or continued. And whether Jason will get even more deeply involved with Leviathan. Possibly next arc we'll hear from Artemis and Bizarro again.

----------


## G-Potion

> It seems you can send an email through his profile. Perhaps try that.
> 
> https://community.cbr.com/member.php?5731-Aioros22


That's a good idea actually. I'll try it. Hopefully if he doesn't log in, he still gets notified through his email.  :Smile:

----------


## Eto

Hopefully RHATO won't tie into whatever's Bendis' next project is. This book deserves better.

----------


## Zaresh

> Hopefully RHATO won't tie into whatever's Bendis' next project is. This book deserves better.


One can only hope. But, to be honest, in my experience, I always end suffering whatever Bendis comes up with for characters I like. I'm unlucky like that. And Jason is a playtoy of the DCU, so...  :EEK!: 

Maybe we're lucky this time. I don't know. I want to hope.

----------


## Sergard

The variant cover of Red Hood: Outlaw #30 by Philip Tan. (source: Bleedingcool)

----------


## G-Potion

Have to say I prefer the style of his previous commission more. But this one is interesting still. Makes you curious about the thing that Jason's torching. Looks as brutal as a Mortal Kombat fatality.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Hopefully RHATO won't tie into whatever's Bendis' next project is. This book deserves better.


Agreed. And why Bendis decided to make Leviathan a Super plot, rather than have it remain in the Bat family, I don't know. And I'm not even getting into what he does to established characters.

----------


## RedBird

> The variant cover of Red Hood: Outlaw #30 by Philip Tan. (source: Bleedingcool)


Oooooh I agree with G, I like the commission style more but I gotta say I love that the fiery smoke and ash in this piece forms an upside down demonic skull, its one of those things you dont realise at first glace. I like that.

----------


## G-Potion

chlorophyll-mortnis.tumblr.com




[X]

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> The variant cover of Red Hood: Outlaw #30 by Philip Tan. (source: Bleedingcool)


Jason looks downright evil here. Not good.

----------


## G-Potion

I don't really mind. I think Red Hood can, and should look evil/villainy at times because he needs to sell that image, and also the beauty is in the contrast between the way he presents himself and his core goodness.

----------


## Sergard

> Hopefully RHATO won't tie into whatever's Bendis' next project is. This book deserves better.


I don't think Bendis is interested in Jason. Who knows if he even knows the character. Although I do hope that RHatO will tie into whatever is going on in Silencer. I want Jason to appear in Silencer or Honor and Talia in RHatO.




> Oooooh I agree with G, I like the commission style more but I gotta say I love that the fiery smoke and ash in this piece forms an upside down demonic skull, its one of those things you dont realise at first glace. I like that.


Thanks for pointing out the skull. I didn't notice it. I noticed the teeth but I couldn't figure out what the whole thing was supposed to be (Maybe because I hadn't looked at the cover as a whole and had always scrolled up and down.)

----------


## Korath

> I don't think Bendis is interested in Jason. Who knows if he even knows the character. Although I do hope that RHatO will tie into whatever is going on in Silencer. I want Jason to appear in Silencer or Honor and Talia in RHatO.


That's what I hope too. Lobdell can't just re-use the Underlife term and never even mention Leviathan, after all  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

> That's what I hope too. Lobdell can't just re-use the Underlife term and never even mention Leviathan, after all


I do hope that Lobdell and Abnett had some kind of talk before Lobdell started using Underlife in RHatO - and that this talk included some form of future crossover between the two titles.
Ideally, Jason will appear in Silencer and Honor in RHatO so that the corporation gets acknowledged in both titles. But at the moment it looks a little unlikely that Jason and Honor will meet soon, with Jason heading to Mexiko and Honor being somewhere which is clearly not Mexiko.

For starters it would have been nice to see Solitary, the pie lady or Wingman (if he's part of the Underlife) somewhere in the background in Silencer #11 when all the underbosses, agents, etc. of Leviathan were shown that had survived. (Although there is a man in a suit who theoretically could be Solitary but that's a very big guess.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The trailer for the Titans season finale is out, and well, it kind of make the idea of Red Hood pointless.

https://youtu.be/O8bl2Vurk7M

----------


## Zaresh

> The trailer for the Titans season finale is out, and well, it kind of make the idea of Red Hood pointless.
> 
> https://youtu.be/O8bl2Vurk7M


So it will go full alt universe. Oh, this is going to piss so, so much people. Batman fans, mostly. On the other hand, it's clearly an alt universe, so everything is fair.

You guys cannot see my face right now, but I'm wearing the most Cheshire Cat's smile one can put. My facial muscles are hurting. In a good way.

----------


## Sergard

> The trailer for the Titans season finale is out, and well, it kind of make the idea of Red Hood pointless.
> 
> https://youtu.be/O8bl2Vurk7M


I don't know,

*spoilers:*
reading some of the comments, everything could be an illusion. So nothing is set in stone yet.
Let's wait and see how everything plays out and enjoy Joker's dead body as long as it lasts.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Arsenal

Given how this week’s episode ends, a lot of people are likely getting themselves all worked up Over nothing.

----------


## Zaresh

> I don't know,
> 
> *spoilers:*
> reading some of the comments, everything could be an illusion. So nothing is set in stone yet.
> Let's wait and see how everything plays out and enjoy Joker's dead body as long as it lasts.
> *end of spoilers*


Oh, what a let down  :Frown: 
I knew I should've waited for watching this week's episode.

----------


## Aahz

As someone who hasn't watched the show sofar:

*spoilers:*
Why is Jason in a Wheelchair ?
*end of spoilers*

----------


## thebluefeline

> As someone who hasn't watched the show sofar:
> 
> *spoilers:*
> Why is Jason in a Wheelchair ?
> *end of spoilers*


*spoilers:*
It's more than likely a dream/hallucination from Dick since he walked into Trigon's house in today's episode. It's kinda showing all his demons and everything he's fearing or wanting in a fairy tale-like world in his head. It even looks like he's married to Dawn which is furthermore confirming the idea that it's a hallucination so Batman, Jason and Gorden are all okay I think. Episode 10 today sets up for the next one really well, show has been great  :Smile: .
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Sergard

New art by JJMK (I love the artist so much, every work is pure gold):

----------


## kaimaciel

> New art by JJMK (I love the artist so much, every work is pure gold):


Oh my God! It's gorgeous!

----------


## Zaresh

> New art by JJMK (I love the artist so much, every work is pure gold):


Damn. The way they render the colouring is getting better and better. My envymeter is reaching a too high mark.

----------


## Zaresh

Ok, so I finally watched this week's episode.

*spoilers:*

So if I am not wrong, Trigon needs to break someone's heart to end the world, and he's not going to break neither Rachel nor Gar (because he does love her). Here comes in Dick, and why next episode is centered around him in a worst-case scenario.

But I still don't get why Rachel asked Dawn to bring Jason to them. I get that she asked or is going to ask this while she's still shut away in the house with her parents, that this episode runs parallel with last week's episode. And Rachel warning Dawn happened towards the end of said episode, unlike when she tried to communicate with Hank. But why Jason? It doesn't make sense yet.

*end of spoilers*

----------


## Sergard

In case someone is interested but doesn't know yet: There is a big Batman Sale! on readdc.com (and comixology) until 17th December. RHatO volumes (and a lot of other Batfam related volumes) are reduced to $4.99.

----------


## oasis1313

> New art by JJMK (I love the artist so much, every work is pure gold):


Wow--is JJMK a pro?  This person needs to be drawing a monthly comic.

----------


## Sergard

Amazon lists the next RHatO volume as "Red Hood: Outlaw Vol. 1" (released on Juni 18, 2019).
Is DC restarting their volume numbers?
Because Detective Comics vol. 10 ("Detective Comics #994-999 plus a story from Detective Comics #1000") is also listed as "Batman: Detective Comics Vol. 1" (released on June 25, 2019.).

----------


## RedBird

> Amazon lists the next RHatO volume as "Red Hood: Outlaw Vol. 1" (released on Juni 18, 2019).
> Is DC restarting their volume numbers?
> Because Detective Comics vol. 10 ("Detective Comics #994-999 plus a story from Detective Comics #1000") is also listed as "Batman: Detective Comics Vol. 1" (released on June 25, 2019.).


In rhatos case is it implying that since the two other party members are gone it really isnt classified as red hood and the outlaws v2 anymore? Now simply the first volume for RHO (red hood outlaw)?

----------


## Zaresh

> In rhatos case is it implying that since the two other party members are gone it really isnt classified as red hood and the outlaws v2 anymore? Now simply the first volume for RHO (red hood outlaw)?


I would take Amazon's info with a grain of salt. It's not the first time or the second, or the third, they list something under certain name and date of release and it's wrong or changed afterwards. Both the name and the release date seem odd to me: too late a release I would put around late april (if I'm not counting wrong the pattern, which I totally would because I know almost nothing about trade's in the US), honestly, and the name doesn't match the numbering DC itself is giving the book (they're following the numbering from Rebirth, and they even list the issues under the whole RHATO name). Case in point: Red Hood Outlaw #31 is still under the Red Hood and the Outlaws 2016 series https://www.dccomics.com/comics/red-...hood-outlaw-31

As far as I know, the info in Amazon is put by bookstores, retailers and the like. But I may be wrong and it's an info the publishers put in themselves, pointing to some kind of change.

EDIT: nevermind about the date thing. It does make sense that they are going to release next trade in June, if they cover up to #31, which is released in February. Four months since the last issue on the volume.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Style experiments for Red Hood. While I dig that end result of these (aside from the washed out Joker) we ended up determining the style wasn’t appropriate for the tone of the story. I love working this way though. Someday down the road I’ll find a project this works for.


https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...99000856473601

I would've taken this over what we ended up getting.

----------


## kaimaciel

> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...99000856473601
> 
> I would've taken this over what we ended up getting.


Hey Dark, are you the one who owns the RHaTO facebook page?

----------


## G-Potion

> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...99000856473601
> 
> I would've taken this over what we ended up getting.


The last panel.  :Frown:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Hey Dark, are you the one who owns the RHaTO facebook page?


I'm one of the admins.

----------


## kaimaciel

> I'm one of the admins.


I thought I recognized you. Nice work! I follow the page.

----------


## Sergard

> https://twitter.com/thatpetewoods/st...99000856473601


What does Woods mean by "the style wasn't appropriate for the tone of the story"? What is he even referring to when he says "style"? Paneling, lines, colors, Jason's design, the weapons, used characters, etc.?

I'd like to see Woods draw Artemis and Bizarro in RHatO. I'm curious how they would look like and how they would move in a fight.

----------


## G-Potion

Can't say for sure but in the tweet's comments as well as on Brett Booth's twitter they expressed their grief at editorial push for bright, local colors rather than the more artistic rendering like the above image. He also said that fortunately Rex Lokus did a good job walking the fine line doing what editorial wants and retaining the level of artistry.

----------


## G-Potion

> I'd like to see Woods draw Artemis and Bizarro in RHatO. I'm curious how they would look like and how they would move in a fight.


Me too. Though I think it would look a bit ridiculous if Jason keeps the tire iron and crowbar as his weapons in this case. I mean, even with the guns, he was already physically the weakest member of the group. :P

----------


## Aahz



----------


## Sergard

> Me too. Though I think it would look a bit ridiculous if Jason keeps the tire iron and crowbar as his weapons in this case. I mean, even with the guns, he was already physically the weakest member of the group. :P


The tire iron and crowbar would be a bad choice of weapon in any case, in my opinion. They are symbols for Jason's start and end as Robin but they aren't really useful in fights. Guns are good long-range weapons, they are fast, precise, dangerous and because of that intimidating. For close combat I'd prefer Jason to get his dagger back. Or use something more practical/with a bigger variety of usage.

I don't mind Jason being the physically weakest member of the group. That's pretty much the normal status of any batfam member in their respective groups. But yeah, with weapons like a crowbar and a tire iron it would be difficult to write fighting scenes with the outlaws where Jason's involvement makes sense since Artemis and Bizarro already equal a two-person-army.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't mind Jason being the physically weakest member of the group. That's pretty much the normal status of any batfam member in their respective groups. But yeah, with weapons like a crowbar and a tire iron it would be difficult to write fighting scenes with the outlaws where Jason's involvement makes sense since Artemis and Bizarro already equal a two-person-army.


I would like him to be portrait more capable and powerful when he is alonfside with Artemis and Bizzaro then how it handled sofar, more like Batman is when he is together with Superman and Wonder Woman.
And Jason is (similar to Dick) imo one of the more physical Batfamily members, so putting him just in the role as a "smart guy" or leader is not really working, and having him just as a long range fighter with pistols (which are anyway mostly useless) is also not that great.
I would prefer put a stronger emphasis in his martial arts skills and All Cast training again.

----------


## G-Potion

> I would prefer put a stronger emphasis in his martial arts skills and All Cast training again.


Yeah. I like that Woods is returning Jason to his quick thinking, situational style. Combine that with the All Caste training, he'd still look good alongside Artemis and Bizarro. Also while he might not fit the "smart guy" role in the way that Tim does, he works really well as a schemer I think. In RHATO he basically devises plans to sabotage villains. My wish is that those plans could be as intricate as how Winick did them.

----------


## Sergard

I'm always interested in more All Caste stuff. Ghost Ducra, Essence and Z'aru are great. I'd also like to see how Jason's time in the All Caste fits around "Batman: Under the Hood". I could imagine that after the BUtH ending Jason returned to the All Caste and received the All Blades from Ducra because he had learned his lesson and because she wanted to give him a new purpose in life. (Or was it stated in the New52 run that Jason received the blades before he returned to Gotham?)

And I reread the last RHatO issue. I can't believe I didn't notice the gun scene before.
*spoilers:*
In issue #29 Jason gets his hands on a gun but when he confronts the pie lady he lays the gun down and only takes it up again after realizing that she is a robot.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Zaresh

> I'm always interested in more All Caste stuff. Ghost Ducra, Essence and Z'aru are great. I'd also like to see how Jason's time in the All Caste fits around "Batman: Under the Hood". I could imagine that after the BUtH ending Jason returned to the All Caste and received the All Blades from Ducra because he had learned his lesson and because she wanted to give him a new purpose in life. (Or was it stated in the New52 run that Jason received the blades before he returned to Gotham?)


A while ago, I was trying to fit every training in the current timeline, with some sense. And I think we can have something like the following.
-So however it happens, Jason is resurrected and once again with his mind healed (we don't know for sure how it worked, and I doubt Lobdell is going to retell that part of his time at any point, to be honest. Just vague bits and pieces here and there). This happens in way less time than in the original continuity.
-He learns about Joker and the new Robin, and decides to take some kind of retribution. Starts to train somehow like in Lost Days. He's enraged and unstable, and still a teen of 16 years, basically. We know he hurt Tim at some point in the N52 continuity.
-Events of Under the Hood, more or less like in the original. After the building, Talia picks up Jason and brings him to the All Caste, hoping they will... tame him. It's a success, more or less, and 17yo Jason is more stable.
-Something like Battle for the Cowl but... more in character and less awful, happens. Dick, now Batman, captures him and puts him in Arkham.
-He stays in Arkham for a few months, meeting Harleen in the process. Harley was already with Joker, probably, but no one has caught her yet, and no one knows she's actually a criminal. For whatever reason (probably spitefulness after Damian mixed with actually understanding of Jason's situation and thinking process), Tim frees Jason. Jason is probably 18.
-And at this point, and probably after a few other adventures, we reach the N52 run of RHATO. Jason is 19.

I think it can work for the "10 years of Batman" timeline we're supposed to be working with now in Rebirth.




> And I reread the last RHatO issue. I can't believe I didn't notice the gun scene before.
> *spoilers:*
> In issue #29 Jason gets his hands on a gun but when he confronts the pie lady he lays the gun down and only takes it up again after realizing that she is a robot.
> *end of spoilers*


Huh. So he does have an issue with guns now. Interesting.

----------


## Sergard

@Zaresh: You are way nicer than me when it comes to old continuity. I'd throw out most of it.
- Jason gets resurrected.
- Talia brings Jason to the All Caste
- Jason leaves the All Caste/stuff with Suzie's family happens
- Under the Hood
- Jason returns to the All Caste/gets his swords
- Edit: Jason working with the League of Assassins; totally forgot about that, but I like the idea that Jason and Bronze Tiger know each other
- begin New52

I think Jason's comment about Harley was vague enough that it could just mean that Robin Jason had some encounter with Harley Quinn and that it wasn't really a "session" but Harley trying to mess with him.
I don't care about Battle for the Cowl. So if it took place in new continuity I'm fine with Jason not being part of it.

----------


## Zaresh

> @Zaresh: You are way nicer than me when it comes to old continuity. I'd throw out most of it.


I like to acknowledge as much as possible, as far as it will make sense. For the writers' respect, but also, because it makes me feel all the stuff I've read more valuable. It probably is more like yours in Lobdell's head, even if it's not very detailed: it would've been some nods to the thrown-out-of-cont. history if not.

----------


## Sergard

> I like to acknowledge as much as possible, as far as it will make sense. For the writers' respect, but also, because it makes me feel all the stuff I've read more valuable. It probably is more like yours in Lobdell's head, even if it's not very detailed: it would've been some nods to the thrown-out-of-cont. history if not.


Maybe my "advantage" is that I haven't read a lot of stuff between UtRH and Countdown because all the panels and story details I've seen/read were rather off-putting.

If a writer wants my respect they have to earn it by telling good stories with characters that don't act ooc. (Although I don't consider a story with bad characterization good, regardless of maybe other redeeming qualities. If a writer has to change the personality of a person to make a story work, then they should have taken another character to begin with instead of relying on popularity/shock value or other things.) - but that's more of an observation of current complaints by Booster Gold fans and others.

Regarding some of Jason's stories I rather have the feeling that writers didn't put a lot of love/interest in his character and just used him because he was available. And that's not good enough for me.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

One of Lobdell's drafts for the second annual included Ducra showing up to do her Yoda schtick but editorial axed that part.

----------


## Sergard

> One of Lobdell's drafts for the second annual included Ducra showing up to do her Yoda schtick but editorial axed that part.


I don't think the annual would have been the right place for Ducra to reappear (There is already a lot of stuff going on with Roy, Killer Croc and Suzie Su's family). I'd prefer it if characters like her, Essence, S'aru and other original characters from the New52 run were probably re-introduced in the Rebirth run so that new readers have it easier to get a grasp of the characters. And I want Artemis and Bizarro to meet Jason's ghost sensei. I wonder if Bizarro is scared of ghosts.

(Did we already have that conversation once? I have a déjà vu feeling. Or maybe it's my brain slowly drifting into sleep mode.)

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The second annual was always meant to be a send off for the N52 Outlaws, so, Ducra giving some advice to Jason would've fit there.

----------


## Sergard

I like how the artist wrote _I drew cute & cool Jason._  But I can't decide who's the cute and who's the cool one.

----------


## G-Potion

> I like how the artist wrote _I drew cute & cool Jason._  But I can't decide who's the cute and who's the cool one.


Haha yeah both of them can definitely go either way.

----------


## G-Potion

> @Zaresh: You are way nicer than me when it comes to old continuity. I'd throw out most of it.
> - Jason gets resurrected.
> *- Talia brings Jason to the All Caste*
> - Jason leaves the All Caste/stuff with Suzie's family happens
> - Under the Hood
> *- Jason returns to the All Caste/gets his swords*
> - Edit: Jason working with the League of Assassins; totally forgot about that, but I like the idea that Jason and Bronze Tiger know each other
> - begin New52


One thing I love about the All Caste is that they didn't magically tame Jason, rather its teaching took time to be absorbed so that Jason still had to go through all the stages to get where he is. I can't remember if there was any hint that any of the All Caste stuff happened after UTH, but I really want it to happen. The idea that he returns there after UTH makes so much sense because I'd imagine how he had nowhere else to go in the aftermath.

----------


## Sergard

Finally a family portrait including Jason (source):

----------


## G-Potion

... I want that bread pillow.

----------


## Sergard

That kind of pillows really exists. Some even have cute faces on them. Such a pillow would have made the scene below even better.

I like how tidy Jason's room looks. And that he has that beautiful chinaware on the table and that ancient weaponry collection on the wall. Although some of the knives look more like ancient kitchen knives. I like the idea of Jason collecting ancient weapons because it fits his character, in my opinion.






That's Midnighter's apartment, or? Seems like Jason and Midnighter share a hobby.

----------


## kaimaciel

> Finally a family portrait including Jason (source):


Jason Todd, an Icon.

----------


## Sergard

> Jason Todd, an Icon.


Jason Todd: Draw me like one of your French girls. (Or: Jason's homage to Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park".)

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason Todd: Draw me like one of your French girls. (Or: Jason's homage to Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park".)


One more page!  Come on, guys!  A thousand pages for Jason !!!!!!!!

----------


## kaimaciel

Aim for the skies people! It's what Jason would want!

----------


## AJpyro

So did anyone else get the Dark trinity trades?

----------


## oasis1313

> So did anyone else get the Dark trinity trades?


I did--they're really nice.  Never could understand how they can do such a great job with coloring recent issues, but the Neal Adams work always looks lousy in collections.

----------


## Sergard

Dark Trinity trades? Are we talking about the RHatO volumes here or something else?

----------


## AJpyro

> Dark Trinity trades? Are we talking about the RHatO volumes here or something else?


Yes. That's what they were called in the first interview about them.

----------


## Jackalope89

Need more Dark Trinity though...

----------


## Sergard

> Yes. That's what they were called in the first interview about them.


Thanks for the clarification. And to answer your question: I bought all four volumes last weekend in the digital sale. (And I already own the respective printed versions.)




> Need more Dark Trinity though...


I really wish RHatO were bi-weekly and with Artemis and Bizarro being back. Don't get me wrong, I love Jason being solo too but I'd also like to have Artemis and Bizarro somewhere in the _same universe_. So Artemis could even team up with other vigilantes while Jason is gone (meaning: appear in other titles, for example Wonder Woman. Or she could get her own mini series.) and Bizarro could also do his own thing or stay with Ma Gunn until Artemis and Jason return.

----------


## Zaresh

> Yes. That's what they were called in the first interview about them.


I own the 4 in their printed version. They're ok I guess. They're cheaper than most translated american trades here, but  they also have slightly cheaper paper and cover: so it's a fair deal.

----------


## oasis1313

Trades are just such a great way of archiving—no ads, a self-contained story.   I love to trade wait.

----------


## oasis1313

I think it's cool that Jason has no fear of crowbars.

----------


## RedBird

m-alejandrita

----------


## G-Potion

> m-alejandrita


Damn that should be on our 1000th page. Quote 'em guys. :P

----------


## RedBird

> m-alejandrita


Damn G you're right!

Happy 1000th page guys!

----------


## G-Potion

There we go. Perfect 1000th!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zaresh

> There we go. Perfect 1000th!


As the wise men of the Old Days used to post: 

(eham)

Epic post in an epic thread ! ! !

Btw, I saw in Reddit that they showed the AK for 'Tec #1000. It's a very basic AK design as far as I saw. Not even camo pattern in the pants.

Still thinking it's going to be Deathstroke or something.

----------


## G-Potion

> As the wise men of the Old Days used to post: 
> 
> (eham)
> 
> Epic post in an epic thread ! ! !
> 
> Btw, I saw in Reddit that they showed the AK for 'Tec #1000. It's a very basic AK design as far as I saw. Not even camo pattern in the pants.
> 
> Still thinking it's going to be Deathstroke or something.


I saw that as well. Not happy that they didn't bother with a new design but at least it looks like the hi-tech aspect is dropped. Still it's interesting that Tomasi is writing that story. He wrote Arkham Knight and Genesis after all.

----------


## RedBird

> As the wise men of the Old Days used to post: 
> 
> (eham)
> 
> Epic post in an epic thread ! ! !
> 
> Btw, I saw in Reddit that they showed the AK for 'Tec #1000. It's a very basic AK design as far as I saw. Not even camo pattern in the pants.
> 
> Still thinking it's going to be Deathstroke or something.


Considering the character has a sword in their hand it seems they are making the 'Knight' a more literal representation which seems.....Kinda silly?

Not that silly superhero costumes and motifs don't already exist, even the OG robin costume is a testament to that and I love it, but in terms of the fact that there is room for comparison here, with the OG version being more subtle with its namesake, it feels like a sillier remake.

The point of the original AK was to be a dark reflection of Batman, the Dark Knight vs the Arkham Knight. The word 'Knight' in the name was just symbolic of his intention and status with the closest literal translation to actual Knights being in the fact that he has armor and a helmet (which isn't that rare in the genre of superheros anyway). Now it seems that this character is going with an actual 'medieval' motif, maybe the character will be inspired by King Arthur or something to make sense of it all? But regardless, it just comes off as a bit silly. Its like in a similar vein as when Ravens costume went from being a cloak that somewhat had a pointed end resembling a Ravens beak, a callback to her namesake, to the new52 when she basically was cosplaying as a bird, feathers and all.





> I saw that as well. Not happy that they didn't bother with a new design but at least it looks like the hi-tech aspect is dropped. Still it's interesting that Tomasi is writing that story. He wrote Arkham Knight and Genesis after all.


I can't say I'm too surprised, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't really trust Tomasi with any character besides Damian. For me, anyone else is a 50/50 on getting something just decent/kinda good and something god awful.

----------


## RedBird

mw-house

----------


## RedBird

mangomaido-o



You're a mean one, Mr Hood XD

----------


## RedBird

Travis Mercer

[x]

----------


## Zaresh

Yeah, I don't really trust Tomasi either, or rather, I don't trust him to get me interested. I did like a lot Supersons and Genesis was fine. But I didn't like everything else in Batman. Too focused on certain themes I'm not really interested in or share the view as far as I noticed. Not saying it was his fault. I have the same problem with Morrison for different reasons. I just don't get invested on certain kind of tricks, takes and themes. Doesn't help that I don't like his Bruce (I don't like modern Bruce, so what's new) and I find boring the dynamic between him and Damian when they're the only mains driving a plot.

I may be wrong. We will see.

On the other hand, it's funny that so far, the little we know about this new AK doesn't appeal us (for different reasons), when I was sure we wouldn't mind a new AK character when it was announced. Talk about a clumsy start.

----------


## G-Potion

> Travis Mercer
> 
> [x]


Nice! Seems like a lot of artists like drawing Jason with twin katanas as part of his arsenal.

----------


## Sergard

Could someone please explain m-alejandrita's artwork? I think I don't understand the "Me. - No." part. Is that meant to be sarcasm? Like Jason: "Do you mean me?" and Bruce being sarcastic: "No, another Jason who has died and came back to life."

The new AK design has been posted in another thread in this forum but here's the art (to make the discussion easier.)



I'm okay with the similarities to the original costume. I actually expected that. If DC wants to use the already known AK name it seems natural to also use a similar costume because people recognize it.
And I'm not bothered by the sword. Although a light saber would have been more awesome. But who knows, maybe the sword has some more futuristic features.

Altogether I'm more curious who the AK will be, and knowing that if the whole concept still makes sense.

----------


## G-Potion

> Could someone please explain m-alejandrita's artwork? I think I don't understand the "Me. - No." part. Is that meant to be sarcasm? Like Jason: "Do you mean me?" and Bruce being sarcastic: "No, another Jason who has died and came back to life."


The writing was meant to be taken as a whole, like "Jason dying again" being worse than dying again. Jason, just to be contrary as usual, sees "Jason" as the thing that's worse than "Dying Again". Well, partly Bruce's fault for making it a different color I guess. :P

----------


## Sergard

A user on Reddit posted the variant for Heroes in Crisis #5 which shows Jason's death.
I'm a little surprised that the artist chose that moment and not the more iconic scene of Bruce holding Jason in his arms. (And am I the only one who gets "Psycho"-by-Hitchcock-feelings when seeing the cover?)




Oh, and here is some meme that I found on twitter and that summons up my feelings about Titans' Jason Todd.





@G-Potion: Thanks for explaining. Sometimes I fail at understanding simple stuff.

----------


## G-Potion

> @G-Potion: Thanks for explaining. Sometimes I fail at understanding simple stuff.


Actually that took me a while too.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> Could someone please explain m-alejandrita's artwork? I think I don't understand the "Me. - No." part. Is that meant to be sarcasm? Like Jason: "Do you mean me?" and Bruce being sarcastic: "No, another Jason who has died and came back to life."


[source]
I know G explained the joke already but if it helps here is the original vine video it was based on. It's just about the second person (Jason in this case) being purposefully difficult.

----------


## Zaresh

> A user on Reddit posted the variant for Heroes in Crisis #5 which shows Jason's death.
> I'm a little surprised that the artist chose that moment and not the more iconic scene of Bruce holding Jason in his arms. (And am I the only one who gets "Psycho"-by-Hitchcock-feelings when seeing the cover?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and here is some meme that I found on twitter and that summons up my feelings about Titans' Jason Todd.
> 
> 
> ...


That cover is pretty good. Are variant covers related to the actual issues contents?

And the meme is fun. I see myself in that caption too :/.

----------


## Arsenal

> That cover is pretty good. Are variant covers related to the actual issues contents?
> 
> And the meme is fun. I see myself in that caption too :/.


So far the variants haven’t reflected the contents of the issues content.

----------


## dietrich

Aah I missed page 1000. Congratulations Jason and fans on hitting 1000 pages of love and Appreciation.

----------


## Zaresh

> Aah I missed page 1000. Congratulations Jason and fans on hitting 1000 pages of love and Appreciation.


Yeeeeeeeey! Thank you @dietrich.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

RED HOOD: OUTLAW #32
written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by STEPHEN SEGOVIA
cover by CULLY HAMNER
variant cover by SHANE DAVIS
“Prince of Gotham” part one! After months on the road, Jason Todd has returned to Gotham City! But where the Red Hood once operated as an underground criminal mastermind, Jason Todd is a businessman. Unfortunately for the Penguin, his first order of business is a hostile takeover of the Iceberg Lounge and Casino! A bold new era for Jason Todd begins, and Batman is going to be so pissed off when he finds out about it.
ON SALE 03.13.19
$3.99 US | 32 PAGES
FC | RATED T+
This issue will ship with two covers.
Please see the order form for details.

----------


## kaimaciel

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #32
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by STEPHEN SEGOVIA
> cover by CULLY HAMNER
> variant cover by SHANE DAVIS
> “Prince of Gotham” part one! After months on the road, Jason Todd has returned to Gotham City! But where the Red Hood once operated as an underground criminal mastermind, Jason Todd is a businessman. Unfortunately for the Penguin, his first order of business is a hostile takeover of the Iceberg Lounge and Casino! A bold new era for Jason Todd begins, and Batman is going to be so pissed off when he finds out about it.
> ON SALE 03.13.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | RATED T+
> ...


Oh my God! What happened? Is Jason working for or with his father?

----------


## G-Potion

Haa. I have to say, so far the last three solicits or so really had my blood pumping. This is like Red Hood in daylight. And Batman can't do a thing but maybe Bruce Wayne can? UTH boardroom meeting style. Anyway I can't wait.

----------


## G-Potion

> Aah I missed page 1000. Congratulations Jason and fans on hitting 1000 pages of love and Appreciation.


Hey thank you!  :Smile:

----------


## Arsenal

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #32
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by STEPHEN SEGOVIA
> cover by CULLY HAMNER
> variant cover by SHANE DAVIS
> “Prince of Gotham” part one! After months on the road, Jason Todd has returned to Gotham City! But where the Red Hood once operated as an underground criminal mastermind, Jason Todd is a businessman. Unfortunately for the Penguin, his first order of business is a hostile takeover of the Iceberg Lounge and Casino! A bold new era for Jason Todd begins, and Batman is going to be so pissed off when he finds out about it.
> ON SALE 03.13.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | RATED T+
> ...


Guess whatever Jason learns in issue #31 sends him back to Gotham.

----------


## G-Potion

Stephen Segovia on art is great. I love his work on Arkham Knight.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The cover

----------


## Zaresh

Heh, that was unexpected.

I guess he learns about Willis as Solitary.
On the other hand, isn't this business takeover a very League move?

----------


## Sergard

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #32
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by STEPHEN SEGOVIA
> cover by CULLY HAMNER
> variant cover by SHANE DAVIS
> "Prince of Gotham" part one! After months on the road, Jason Todd has returned to Gotham City! But where the Red Hood once operated as an underground criminal mastermind, Jason Todd is a businessman. Unfortunately for the Penguin, his first order of business is a hostile takeover of the Iceberg Lounge and Casino! A bold new era for Jason Todd begins, and Batman is going to be so pissed off when he finds out about it.
> ON SALE 03.13.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | RATED T+
> ...


I love the story title and the story itself. Jason as businessman sounds fun. I want to see Jason's smart and strategic side.
But I'm surprised that the Underlife story is already over(?). I'm curious how the transition from issue 31 to 32 will look like.
I wouldn't have expected to see the Penguin in RHatO again so soon. The Penguin is everywhere - in Batgirl, in RHatO, in Batman, in HiC, in Catwoman, in The Batman Who Laughs ... - is that coincidence that so many writers want to use the character or is that a publicity stunt by DC because Penguin is going to be a villain in a movie, I think(?).

I like that the cover artist drew Penguin with a shaved head (people who read Batman know why.)
The big roulette wheel could be a reference to Batman #411; for comparison:

Batman 411 wheel.jpg

----------


## G-Potion

> But I'm surprised that the Underlife story is already over(?). I'm curious how the transition from issue 31 to 32 will look like.


Depends on how much involved Solitary is with the Underlife I guess. Given the name of the arc and Jason targeting Penguin again, looks like Willis has an influence on what Jason's doing. And if what @Zaresh says about this being similar to a League thing, then there's also Talia to look forward to.

----------


## adrikito

> The cover


After "kill" the penguin he is interacting with him again in the same comic..

CONGRATULATIONS FOR THE 1000th pages Jason.

----------


## RedBird

@hara_1008



I always find the bird interpretations really cute

----------


## RedBird

kalhuset

----------


## RedBird

@kuro52659632

----------


## RedBird

M-Alejandrita



Original Meme

----------


## Zaresh

> M-Alejandrita
> 
> 
> 
> Original Meme


Oh, ha, the world never ceases to amaze me.

----------


## G-Potion

> M-Alejandrita
> 
> 
> 
> Original Meme


Haha I love how adorable the Knight's militia is in all the fanarts.

----------


## Zaresh

> Haha I love how adorable the Knight's militia is in all the fanarts.


It's the ears. The cat/bat ears.
They're a force of cute technonature.

----------


## Sergard

Source: "Always a Robin!"

----------


## Sergard

Here's some old Jason fanart from August 2013. (source)






I hope we'll see businessman Jason wear some expensive business suit and act all ice-cold and calculating while faking a playful smile.

----------


## oasis1313

I think Jason should run for Police Commissioner and show Bruce the true meaning of "Bitch."

----------


## G-Potion

> I think Jason should run for Police Commissioner and show Bruce the true meaning of "Bitch."


I love how the fandom embraces this petty side of him.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sergard

My favorite "Jason is petty" fanfic is this one: "Red Hood: Lost Days AU. After finding out that he remains unavenged, Jason returns to Gotham, but instead of deciding to kill Bruce, he decides to channel his rage into a more creative endeavor: spray-painting Gotham until the message is loud and clear to everyone: f*ck Batman."

And here is another fanfic I like; Jason runs away, doesn't search for his mother and becomes a soldier instead.

Jason as policeman could be really fun. I'd like to read an Elseworlds' story without superheroes in which Jason is a policeman who tries to fight corruption at day, and a crime lord who tries to control crime at night.

----------


## Jcady59

> I think Jason should run for Police Commissioner and show Bruce the true meaning of "Bitch."


Yeah I can see it now, Jason tries something but Batman just bitch slaps his ass up and down Main Street, no doubt showing Bruce the true meaning of bitch.

----------


## Zaresh

> My favorite "Jason is petty" fanfic is this one: "Red Hood: Lost Days AU. After finding out that he remains unavenged, Jason returns to Gotham, but instead of deciding to kill Bruce, he decides to channel his rage into a more creative endeavor: spray-painting Gotham until the message is loud and clear to everyone: f*ck Batman."
> 
> And here is another fanfic I like; Jason runs away, doesn't search for his mother and becomes a soldier instead.
> 
> Jason as policeman could be really fun. I'd like to read an Elseworlds' story without superheroes in which Jason is a policeman who tries to fight corruption at day, and a crime lord who tries to control crime at night.


Ah, I don't know about the second one, but the first one, "Gotham Banksy", is pretty good: original and kind of wild. I loved reading that one.

----------


## G-Potion

https://mobile.twitter.com/nockuth

----------


## RedBird

jjmk-jjmk



RED HOOD and ROBIN

----------


## kaimaciel

Guys, with Young Justice right around the corner: what are the chances of finally getting Red Hood? Thoughts? Predictions?

Not showing up at all? Small cameo? Part of the plot?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Guys, with Young Justice right around the corner: what are the chances of finally getting Red Hood? Thoughts? Predictions?
> 
> Not showing up at all? Small cameo? Part of the plot?


I would love it, but we would need more of this world's Jason's backstory to see where it would go. We know primary universe, Joker beat him and blew him up. Arkham Asylum, he was kidnapped and brutally beaten for months. Young Justice, I see Jason being closer to Dick than in the primary universe, as the two would be on the Team at the same time. How close he was to the others remains to be seen. But I could see a Red Hood/Red X sort of thing, where Jason acts as a loner/3rd party between the heroes and villains. Doing things his way.

----------


## Aahz

I don't think that it is very likely, unless they can somehow fit him into their main plot.

Also if they stick to the ages they stated Jason is about the same age as Blue Beetle, I'm not sure if they would do a teen age Red Hood.

----------


## Sergard

> I don't think that it is very likely, unless they can somehow fit him into their main plot.
> 
> Also if they stick to the ages they stated Jason is about the same age as Blue Beetle, I'm not sure if they would do a teen age Red Hood.


Oh, I didn't know that there are official ages. I'm surprised that Barbara is younger than Dick. That seems odd.
Wouldn't Jason be even younger than Blue Beetle since he was dead for some time? Let's say for example Jason was dead for a year. Then he wouldn't be 16 but 15 since his body didn't age while being dead.

I agree that his appearance is unlikely. But I like to imagine that he was resurrected and now lives with Talia and Damian (or the All-Caste).

----------


## RedBird

I'm personally okay with Jason not making any sort of appearance this season. Season 2 of YJ already had the problem of being overcrowded with not enough attention being split between the new and old characters, and now that season 3 is getting overzealous and introducing _even more_ characters, I'm doubtful that such a loaded season could (ironically) do any _justice_ to the character, especially after such an ominous off screen death and presence. If there are plans to re introduce him, cool. However I'm more than happy for the show to take it's time and not rush it if that is indeed the case. 

I think at best for this season, I'd be cool with some flashbacks maybe? Just to give some more context as do what happened between season 1 and 2.

----------


## G-Potion

https://www.deviantart.com/glencanlas

You're doing fine, Jason.

----------


## G-Potion

> I agree that his appearance is unlikely. But I like to imagine that he was resurrected and now lives with Talia and Damian (or the All-Caste).


I'd like to see a similar take on post-resurrected Jason as well. Could be in any medium.

----------


## Aahz

> Oh, I didn't know that there are official ages.


It is more semi official, apparently you could ask Greg Weisman questions about stuff like this on his homepage, and most of these ages are compiled from his answers.

But based on Dicks age (he was only 13 in season 1) it makes sense for Jason to be around this age.





> Then he wouldn't be 16 but 15 since his body didn't age while being dead.


That really depends on a number of things, like how old he exactly was when he died, and when and how he got resurrected.





> I'm surprised that Barbara is younger than Dick. That seems odd.


There are a number of things odd about the ages, for example that they had Dick becoming Robin at age 9 and made him much younger then the other original team members, and that Zatanna is around the same age as Dick.

----------


## Aahz

Hey and we just got a live action Jason in Titans, so I think we don't necessarily need a Young Justice version right now. Especially since i would like them to something more than just do their version of UTRH.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Years ago, Weissman said once that if they were to do a third season for YJ, Jason would've been used.

----------


## Sergard

JJMK

----------


## Sergard



----------


## G-Potion

Damian on the ceiling cracked me up. Nice callback. And I love the idea of Jason just standing there by the light switch and wait.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Aahz

Thinking about Young Justice: what I would probably do before bringing him back as Red Hood, would be to do some sort of alternate timeline story (something like Falsh Point) with Jason (and maybe some other dead charcters) being still alive and a member of the team in that timeline.

----------


## Zaresh

> Damian on the ceiling cracked me up. Nice callback. *And I love the idea of Jason just standing there by the light switch and wait.*


Yeah. I don't know why, but I could see him doing just that with a blank-yet-incredulous-and-amused face.

----------


## G-Potion

https://mobile.twitter.com/thatpetewoods

The file name says RH 31 P9.

----------


## RedBird

Flashback I assume? Unless Joker is planning to rip his own face off again. (God that was dumb)

----------


## RedBird

@loco_maru

----------


## G-Potion

Oooh that's pretty!

----------


## dietrich

Happy Holidays Jason fans

They told him it was a sweater party




Based on this

----------


## JoeZ

> @loco_maru


Nice pic.  :Smile: 

Also, Happy Holidays, everyone.

----------


## RedBird

Happy Holidays guys!

Fade-Works



_Merry Christmas!❤️_

Cat versions of all the Batboys + Roy, Bruce, Roman, Slade and that's Bizarro kitty in Jasons arms  :Big Grin:

----------


## G-Potion

So many Christmas arts for Jason.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> Flashback I assume? Unless Joker is planning to rip his own face off again. (God that was dumb)


That's my guess. A flashback from Death of the Family.
The question now is, why?

----------


## Zaresh

> Happy Holidays Jason fans
> 
> They told him it was a sweater party
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on this


Off topic, but I just love how much of a bunch of idiotic pals Jackman and Reynolds seem to have become. And given that I suspect that Gyllenhaal is some sort of ultimate Troll, sure he is a nice, fun addition for the social media feed of Reynolds. I mean, it's a little of an act and that; but I feel like this is kind of genuine for them.




> So many Christmas arts for Jason.


And it's a good thing. Ah, a very good thing :3.

----------


## oasis1313

Will the CBR forums all restart on January 1 for 2019?  We're doing so good here, I'd hate to bust Jason's 1000+ page record.

----------


## Arsenal

> That's my guess. A flashback from Death of the Family.
> The question now is, why?


Maybe a nightmare/dream/hallucination induced by his father? We still don't know what his abilities are or what he's capable of.

----------


## G-Potion

> Will the CBR forums all restart on January 1 for 2019?  We're doing so good here, I'd hate to bust Jason's 1000+ page record.


Not sure if mods still feel necessary to do it. That said, if it happens I'd feel bad for other appreciation threads that were just restarted months ago. At least here 1000 page is a good point to end.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not sure if mods still feel necessary to do it. That said, if it happens I'd feel bad for other appreciation threads that were just restarted months ago. At least here 1000 page is a good point to end.


I know some of these enormous threads were clogging the forums for awhile.  It might be good to reset them all so that we can gauge how the conversations are going.

----------


## G-Potion

> I know some of these enormous threads were clogging the forums for awhile.  It might be good to reset them all so that we can gauge how the conversations are going.


Was is the reason the forum slowed down? I had the impression that it was because of something else. I think it's easy to see how robust a thread is or isn't without the need to restart. Also if the condition being all appreciation threads regardless of page count, I can see it being a bit of a bother to create a new thread for every closed one; and for the less often discussed characters, people are also less likely to step up and open a new thread for them.

----------


## oasis1313

> Was is the reason the forum slowed down? I had the impression that it was because of something else. I think it's easy to see how robust a thread is or isn't without the need to restart. Also if the condition being all appreciation threads regardless of page count, I can see it being a bit of a bother to create a new thread for every closed one; and for the less often discussed characters, people are also less likely to step up and open a new thread for them.


I understood it to be big fat threads clogging things up so some of them had to be started over.  Might be wrong, though.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> https://www.deviantart.com/glencanlas
> 
> You're doing fine, Jason.


I, personally, still stand by Tim's New 52 Red Robin costume being his best looking.

I like this pic. I wonder what the context is?

----------


## Zaresh

> I, personally, still stand by Tim's New 52 Red Robin costume being his best looking.
> 
> I like this pic. I wonder what the context is?


I agree, but people think the wings are dumb for some reason. Tasteless people, I swear!
I liked pre-FP costume too, just not the cowl. I would've worked something different. It's also a natural evolution of the red, golden and black costume he had (and which is, to this day, the best looking All-Robin costume. Well, I don't like the pants, but one can easily work that a bit to stylize it in a more fashionable way).
I also dislike the cross-thingy-thing in both costumes, now that I think about it. Like, really, not a fan. Needs to be functional or something. If not, it's going to come across as some Tetsuya Nomura's discarded design: belts everywhere.

(Yeah, I spend time thinking about these sort of matters. But hey; it's hard to get character design right and, as someone who draws her stories, it's a subject that matters to me)

----------


## Arsenal

If the the thread does get reset, I nominate “Prince of Gotham” get added to the title.

----------


## Zaresh

> If the the thread does get reset, I nominate “Prince of Gotham” get added to the title.


Funny, but it would give us a nice indication as of when it was started. It is the title for the new arc (starting in march), right? For the years to come (because I doubt we will reach page 1000 within a year).

----------


## Sergard

I'd prefer "Damned Prince of Gotham" since basically every Robin is "Prince of Gotham" because of their relationship to Batman, Joker even called Batman a "king" and the batfamily the "royal family" in RHatO #15 (old run).



And three issues later Alfred calls Jason "Prince of Gotham" while being unconscious. Bless Alfred, Best Grandfather of the Year; or better: of every Year. It was such a nice moment, basically reassuring the reader that Jason is still part of the family.




Of course, there is also the scene from RHatO #23 (current run) which reveals that Jason was already called "(Damned) Prince of Gotham" shortly after being born. That adds a little more complexity to the whole "Prince of Gotham"-stuff.

----------


## Zaresh

> I'd prefer "Damned Prince of Gotham" since basically every Robin is "Prince of Gotham" because of their relationship to Batman, Joker even called Batman a "king" and the batfamily the "royal family" in RHatO #15 (old run).
> 
> 
> 
> And three issues later Alfred calls Jason "Prince of Gotham" while being unconscious. Bless Alfred, Best Grandfather of the Year; or better: of every Year. It was such a nice moment, basically reassuring the reader that Jason is still part of the family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, there is also the scene from RHatO #23 (current run) which reveals that Jason was already called "(Damned) Prince of Gotham" shortly after being born. That adds a little more complexity to the whole "Prince of Gotham"-stuff.


Right. I was missing the "damned" part.
So true and right and also catchy.

----------


## J. D. Guy

> I agree, but people think the wings are dumb for some reason. Tasteless people, I swear!
> I liked pre-FP costume too, just not the cowl. I would've worked something different. It's also a natural evolution of the red, golden and black costume he had (and which is, to this day, the best looking All-Robin costume. Well, I don't like the pants, but one can easily work that a bit to stylize it in a more fashionable way).
> I also dislike the cross-thingy-thing in both costumes, now that I think about it. Like, really, not a fan. Needs to be functional or something. If not, it's going to come across as some Tetsuya Nomura's discarded design: belts everywhere.
> 
> (Yeah, I spend time thinking about these sort of matters. But hey; it's hard to get character design right and, as someone who draws her stories, it's a subject that matters to me)


(Sorry for the tangent everyone!)

It's always nice to see someone else who likes the New 52 Red Robin look. And I don't agree with the typical jab on the wings either. The design gives a unique dimension and body to the cape that's not feally present in the capes of any of the other outfits any of the Batfamily has worn or wears.

I will say I like the criss-cross of the belt design, at least in the New 52 look (so not as much in the pre-Flashpoint Red Robin costume for me). There is a certain flair of toughness that is to be had from such a design; and an aside, this wouldn't come close to the "too many belts" Nomoura thing  :Wink: . Rather, I think it works here.

On the flip side, I also concur that the cowl from the pre-Flashpoint costume really does kind of throw me off the design something fierce. I'm not sure its removal/alteration would do a 180 for me on it, though, but I guess it could be a place to start. But the cowl did too much against Tim than in favor for him, at least in my eyes.

----------


## Arsenal

> I'd prefer "Damned Prince of Gotham" since basically every Robin is "Prince of Gotham" because of their relationship to Batman, Joker even called Batman a "king" and the batfamily the "royal family" in RHatO #15 (old run).
> 
> 
> 
> And three issues later Alfred calls Jason "Prince of Gotham" while being unconscious. Bless Alfred, Best Grandfather of the Year; or better: of every Year. It was such a nice moment, basically reassuring the reader that Jason is still part of the family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, there is also the scene from RHatO #23 (current run) which reveals that Jason was already called "(Damned) Prince of Gotham" shortly after being born. That adds a little more complexity to the whole "Prince of Gotham"-stuff.


“Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood & Damned Prince of Gotham” has a nice ring to it

----------


## Zaresh

> “Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood & Damned Prince of Gotham” has a nice ring to it


And Arkham Knight.

The Robin, the Hood, the Knight and the Prince. At this point, we will have a party for a game. Do we count Wingman too?

----------


## Sergard

There is probably a character limitation for thread titles. So better restrict to the most important names and mention the rest in the first post.

Who will create the new thread? A mod or a normal user? I'd like to have some additional rules that are already used in other appreciation threads.

----------


## G-Potion

> And Arkham Knight.
> 
> The Robin, the Hood, the Knight and the Prince. At this point, we will have a party for a game. Do we count Wingman too?


Now that gives a funny mental image. A band of Jasons going on quests, saving the world. Don't forget the Priest as well. Also is the boss a Jason? We have crime lord.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Since there will be a new Arkham Knight who will actively use the name, we probably should stop putting that name on the thread title to avoid confusion.

----------


## G-Potion

We don't know how long that character will last beyond Tec'1000. I think Jason will still remain as the prevalent owner of that title for a while, given the popularity of the game. Even his costume is more memorable.

----------


## Rise

We already reached 1000? This is pretty awesome. 

Also, if we are going to have a new thread, I definitely agree it should be tilted this "Robin, the Hood, the Knight and the Damned Prince of Gotham". 




> I'd prefer "Damned Prince of Gotham" since basically every Robin is "Prince of Gotham" because of their relationship to Batman, Joker even called Batman a "king" and the batfamily the "royal family" in RHatO #15 (old run)


I see it differently. Batman as named is Gotham's Dark Knight and protecter, not her king. Nor I see any of the other robins as the princess of the city.

What makes "the Prince of Gotham" title so fitting and brilliant for Jason is because he is the product of her cruelty and harsh environment, but there's a still beauty about the city that make her worth saving. Just like how despite Jason's flaws, aggressiveness and ruthlessness, he still a good guy who has so much more to him. Not to mention that he also has a genuine love for the city and a connection with her that goes beyond Batman which unlike the other robins.

----------


## Rise

> RED HOOD: OUTLAW #32
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by STEPHEN SEGOVIA
> cover by CULLY HAMNER
> variant cover by SHANE DAVIS
> Prince of Gotham part one! After months on the road, Jason Todd has returned to Gotham City! But where the Red Hood once operated as an underground criminal mastermind, Jason Todd is a businessman. Unfortunately for the Penguin, his first order of business is a hostile takeover of the Iceberg Lounge and Casino! A bold new era for Jason Todd begins, and Batman is going to be so pissed off when he finds out about it.
> ON SALE 03.13.19
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES
> FC | RATED T+
> ...


While I would have liked for Jason to stay in the road longer, I can't say I'm upest that he give the finger to Batman by returning too soon to Gotham and even went after Penguin again. Batman certainly didn't have any right to exile him from Gotham to begin with.

And the businessman route seems an interesting new direction for Jason. Definitely interested in the arc.

----------


## G-Potion

Hey Rise you're back!  :Big Grin:

----------


## RedBird

Good to see you again Rise

Feels like a Christmas Miracle  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

Welcome back *@Rise*, and merry er, holidays to all!




> Now that gives a funny mental image. A band of Jasons going on quests, saving the world. Don't forget the Priest as well. Also is the boss a Jason? We have crime lord.


Of course. Hood is a crimelord, the leader and the Rogue class. Because Rogues are cool (even if I always play with a Sorcerler).
The Priest is the clasic Cleric .
Knight is a Ranger, funny enough.
The Prince will be the a Battle Sorcerler: we need one and he represents the Jason ith inborn bad luck and insintive weirdness.
Wingman will be the Paladin.

----------


## G-Potion

> Of course. Hood is a crimelord, the leader and the Rogue class. Because Rogues are cool (even if I always play with a Sorcerler).
> The Priest is the clasic Cleric .
> Knight is a Ranger, funny enough.
> The Prince will be the a Battle Sorcerler: we need one and he represents the Jason ith inborn bad luck and insintive weirdness.
> Wingman will be the Paladin.


I feel like this is the same case where Hood is the leader but just don't tell the others that.  :Cool:

----------


## Zaresh

> I feel like this is the same case where Hood is the leader but just don't tell the others that.


Absolutely.

----------


## Rise

Aww thank you guys for this warm welcome and I hope you all have happy holidays!!

And happy new year to you all in advance because I might not be able to say it to you when the new year arrive.

----------


## oasis1313

> If the the thread does get reset, I nominate Prince of Gotham get added to the title.


I would agree.  As Dick is no longer adopted and Tim has his own parents, the Prince of Gotham role is Jason's by right.  It would also belong is Damian when he is of age so they would be the Princes of Gotham.

----------


## RedBird

> I see it differently. Batman as named is Gotham's Dark Knight and protecter, not her king. Nor I see any of the other robins as the princess of the city.
> 
> What makes "the Prince of Gotham" title so fitting and brilliant for Jason is because he is the product of her cruelty and harsh environment, but there's a still beauty about the city that make her worth saving. Just like how despite Jason's flaws, aggressiveness and ruthlessness, he still a good guy who has so much more to him. Not to mention that he also has a genuine love for the city and a connection with her that goes beyond Batman which unlike the other robins.


I agree with you, I see it more as a symbol of his upbringing and deep roots in Gotham as a true _Gothamite_, rather than a lineage based on his association with Batman/Bruce. Born within the very underbelly and ugliest parts of Gotham, he lived and breathed this city that continues to birth a whole manner of horrors and crimes. Especially in his post crisis origin he is clearly made out to be a diamond in the rough, like the city itself, roughened and outwardly harsh but still thriving and existing from the innate light and goodness within, even if those positive aspects seem hidden at times. Even though you could slap on the title for any of the male bat family members especially if your interpretation is based solely on the father-son aspect ie; Bruce = King, Batboys = Princes, Batgirls = Princesses? etc. 

Based on his birth, origins and upbringing I don't think the title 'Prince of Gotham' or 'Damned Prince of Gotham' is more fitting for any other bat family member than Jason.

Plus as the 'Prince of _Gotham_' it makes sense that he is thematically and famously in clear opposition and contrasted to the 'Clown Prince of _Crime_', Joker  :Stick Out Tongue: 


Not sure if Alfred is going by lineage here or referring to Jasons background, either way what a softy.  :Smile:

----------


## G-Potion

Failed to get this done in time for Christmas arggggh. Anyway, jumping on the multiple Jasons train. Gonna be a set of three but the other two will take a while so here's the first one for you guys. And hey, this is already my 9th drawing for Jason!  :Cool:

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> We already reached 1000? This is pretty awesome. 
> 
> Also, if we are going to have a new thread, I definitely agree it should be tilted this "Robin, the Hood, the Knight and the Damned Prince of Gotham". 
> 
> 
> 
> I see it differently. Batman as named is Gotham's Dark Knight and protecter, not her king. Nor I see any of the other robins as the princess of the city.
> 
> What makes "the Prince of Gotham" title so fitting and brilliant for Jason is because he is the product of her cruelty and harsh environment, but there's a still beauty about the city that make her worth saving. Just like how despite Jason's flaws, aggressiveness and ruthlessness, he still a good guy who has so much more to him. Not to mention that he also has a genuine love for the city and a connection with her that goes beyond Batman which unlike the other robins.


Personally, I feel what makes the Prince of Gotham title so fitting is because it's the only literature reference among the dozens of heavy handed ones done in Rebirth that's perfect for the character and storyline. 

Add in that the original Death in the Family's Shelia Haywood was implied to be a back alley abortionist, and current Jason's mom was a teenager who'd considered abortion and you get the second arc phrase "An orphan or an abortion." 

For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it's The Cider House Rules. The abandoned and orphaned children in the home are all referred to by their caretakers as the princes and princesses of Maine, the kings and queens of New England. Overall, it's an excellent comparison story for Jason, as the main character keeps coming back to the home he was raised in, resists the morals and beliefs of his adopted father, runs off with a boy and girl his age to create a triad relationship that he's eventually eliminated from, and finally embraces his destiny as the rightful heir and successor of his adopted father's legacy and responsibilities.

The books great, oddly, the movie is better. Overall Lobdell has done the best job with his book list, [U]Of Mice and Men[\U] and [U]Flowers for Algernon[\U] were expertly done as well, and I like that he improved upon the original endings.

----------


## RedBird

> Personally, I feel what makes the Prince of Gotham title so fitting is because it's the only literature reference among the dozens of heavy handed ones done in Rebirth that's perfect for the character and storyline. 
> 
> Add in that the original Death in the Family's Shelia Haywood was implied to be a back alley abortionist, and current Jason's mom was a teenager who'd considered abortion and you get the second arc phrase "An orphan or an abortion." 
> 
> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it's The Cider House Rules. The abandoned and orphaned children in the home are all referred to by their caretakers as the princes and princesses of Maine, the kings and queens of New England. Overall, it's an excellent comparison story for Jason, as the main character keeps coming back to the home he was raised in, resists the morals and beliefs of his adopted father, runs off with a boy and girl his age to create a triad relationship that he's eventually eliminated from, and finally embraces his destiny as the rightful heir and successor of his adopted father's legacy and responsibilities.
> 
> The books great, oddly, the movie is better. Overall Lobdell has done the best job with his book list, Of Mice and Men and Flowers for Algernon were expertly done as well, and I like that he improved upon the original endings.


Wow! It didn't even occur to me that 'Prince of Gotham' could be a reference to another classic novel, but considering Lobdell's rebirth track record so far, it definitely seems possible. Thanks for the info  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

> Failed to get this done in time for Christmas arggggh. Anyway, jumping on the multiple Jasons train. Gonna be a set of three but the other two will take a while so here's the first one for you guys. And hey, this is already my 9th drawing for Jason!


OOOH nice, always love seeing Father Todd  :Smile:   and is it Arkham Jason or Titans Jason?
Or a different Jason altogether?

----------


## Zaresh

> Failed to get this done in time for Christmas arggggh. Anyway, jumping on the multiple Jasons train. Gonna be a set of three but the other two will take a while so here's the first one for you guys. And hey, this is already my 9th drawing for Jason!


Great work, @G-Pots  :Cool: 
(I was going to post some cool ASCII, but the board breaks it :/)

----------


## Zaresh

> Personally, I feel what makes the Prince of Gotham title so fitting is because it's the only literature reference among the dozens of heavy handed ones done in Rebirth that's perfect for the character and storyline. 
> 
> Add in that the original Death in the Family's Shelia Haywood was implied to be a back alley abortionist, and current Jason's mom was a teenager who'd considered abortion and you get the second arc phrase "An orphan or an abortion." 
> 
> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it's The Cider House Rules. The abandoned and orphaned children in the home are all referred to by their caretakers as the princes and princesses of Maine, the kings and queens of New England. Overall, it's an excellent comparison story for Jason, as the main character keeps coming back to the home he was raised in, resists the morals and beliefs of his adopted father, runs off with a boy and girl his age to create a triad relationship that he's eventually eliminated from, and finally embraces his destiny as the rightful heir and successor of his adopted father's legacy and responsibilities.
> 
> The books great, oddly, the movie is better. Overall Lobdell has done the best job with his book list, [U]Of Mice and Men[\U] and [U]Flowers for Algernon[\U] were expertly done as well, and I like that he improved upon the original endings.


Oh, I had no idea (I saw the movie, years ago, now that I think about it). That's pretty cool.

----------


## Sergard

> Failed to get this done in time for Christmas arggggh. Anyway, jumping on the multiple Jasons train. Gonna be a set of three but the other two will take a while so here's the first one for you guys. And hey, this is already my 9th drawing for Jason!


It's a beautiful composition. Always nice to see some Father Todd love. (And nine drawings for Jason are already nine more than I have.)
I'm looking forward to the other two pieces. Multiple Jasons fanarts are great.

----------


## G-Potion

> OOOH nice, always love seeing Father Todd   and is it Arkham Jason or Titans Jason?
> Or a different Jason altogether?


Arkham (Knight) Jason is in the other pic, doing what you probably expect him to do. This one is catatonic Jason waking up at the sight of someone at the door. You can't see him nor the door but you can see a bit of shadow.  :Stick Out Tongue:  At some point i wanted to make a gif out of this to play with some animated elements like the opening door but I was too beat, this took way more time than I expected. I still really want to do it though. Maybe in a few days.

----------


## G-Potion

> Great work, @G-Pots 
> (I was going to post some cool ASCII, but the board breaks it :/)


Aww not cool board. I really wanted to see what it looked like. :/

----------


## Sergard

> Personally, I feel what makes the Prince of Gotham title so fitting is because it's the only literature reference *among the dozens* of heavy handed ones done in Rebirth that's perfect for the character and storyline. 
> 
> Add in that the original Death in the Family's Shelia Haywood was implied to be a back alley abortionist, and current Jason's mom was a teenager who'd considered abortion and you get the second arc phrase "An orphan or an abortion." 
> 
> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, it's The Cider House Rules. The abandoned and orphaned children in the home are all referred to by their caretakers as the princes and princesses of Maine, the kings and queens of New England. Overall, it's an excellent comparison story for Jason, as the main character keeps coming back to the home he was raised in, resists the morals and beliefs of his adopted father, runs off with a boy and girl his age to create a triad relationship that he's eventually eliminated from, and finally embraces his destiny as the rightful heir and successor of his adopted father's legacy and responsibilities.
> 
> The books great, oddly, the movie is better. Overall Lobdell has done the best job with his book list, Of Mice and Men and Flowers for Algernon were expertly done as well, and I like that he improved upon the original endings.


Could you maybe give more examples for literature references in Rebirth? (We are talking here about all Rebirth titles, not only RHatO, right?)
Concerning RHatO, I only knew about The Scarlet Letter, because Lobdell mentioned it in an interview.
And Ma Gunn having a change of heart because of her grandson felt a little bit like her having a _Little Lord Fauntleroy_-moment. But that could be coincidence.

I read the plots of the three mentioned titles on wiki (Why can't the referenced literature be books like Jane Austen's novels, _Anne of Green Gables_, _Little Women_, _Daddy Long Legs_, _Moby Dick_ or _The Sea-Wolf_? Although, maybe not _Moby Dick_.). I see some similarities although the referenced literature is way darker than what is happening in RHatO. And I'm glad it's not the other way around.

----------


## G-Potion

> It's a beautiful composition. Always nice to see some Father Todd love. (And nine drawings for Jason are already nine more than I have.)
> I'm looking forward to the other two pieces. Multiple Jasons fanarts are great.


Thanks @Sergard! Father Todd was always going to be chosen because someone has to comfort these crybabies. Out of them you have like, two, who can do that.  :Stick Out Tongue:  That said, I'm going a bit different direction with the other two drawings. But Knight is still crying it's almost a meme at this point I can't pass it up.  :Cool:

----------


## Sergard

I found some nice fanarts with Jason and Damian from April 2018. I hope they haven't been posted yet.




(source)

----------


## Sergard

More Jason and Damian:



(source)



(source)

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> Could you maybe give more examples for literature references in Rebirth? (We are talking here about all Rebirth titles, not only RHatO, right?)
> Concerning RHatO, I only knew about The Scarlet Letter, because Lobdell mentioned it in an interview.
> And Ma Gunn having a change of heart because of her grandson felt a little bit like her having a _Little Lord Fauntleroy_-moment. But that could be coincidence.
> 
> I read the plots of the three mentioned titles on wiki (Why can't the referenced literature be books like Jane Austen's novels, _Anne of Green Gables_, _Little Women_, _Daddy Long Legs_, _Moby Dick_ or _The Sea-Wolf_? Although, maybe not _Moby Dick_.). I see some similarities although the referenced literature is way darker than what is happening in RHatO. And I'm glad it's not the other way around.


Lobdell fixing the endings of those books is one of the best parts of Red Hood. Especially Algernon. That story is as bad as Where the Red Fern Grows for getting people to start bawling. My parents took me to a high school performance, and I had no idea why the usurers felt the need to hand out Kleenex. I'm glad the Bizzaro arc fixed how that story ended, despite it still being brutal.

King's Batman. Dear god, King's Batman. It isn't even subtle. Although, in all fairness, no one has caught any of the subtle things in King's Batman like the entire break Catwoman out of jail and romance/engagement was part of Bane's master plan. So subtle probably isn't the way to go for his readers.

Percy's aborted run on Nightwing was steeped in William S Gibson, in particular Neuromancer. I think there were some Phillip K Dick and Harrison nods in there too. Seely's Nightwing had a couple besides Robin Hood, but I can't quite place my finger on them. His run also tied back to the new 52/pre 52 Dick and Damian as Percival and Galahad/the Hero Twins of Maya mythology/and the Arwan and I think Bran of Welsh mythology. The Hero Twins is a key part of Metal and the Resistance, as it relies heavily on the myth of the two brothers forced to enter a labyrinth and fight various bat monsters and gods in order to rescue and free their father. What's interesting about that and their link to Arthurian mythology (which is incredibly heavy handed with Damian, and how Morrison and others justified keeping the unnecessary rape retcon beyond racist misogyny) is that both sets end up ascending to heaven after the ends of their quests, which ties into the nod to Enter the Dragon, as in most Asian mythologies, dragons carry the most worthy up to heaven body and soul. 

The dragon issue of Nightwing also ties back to Tomasi's B&R and Robin: SOB as Asian dragons have strong affinities for pearls, which were major themes in both of Damian's books, in particular as symbols of family and redemption. It's also referencing the Christian mythology and bible quotes about pearls of great price. Percy's Teen Titans started out with Damian referencing Childe Harold's Pilgrimage and ended with Peter Pan. Ironically, the ending with Peter Pan completely changed my feelings on his run and made me appreciate and enjoy it because that book, much like the other constantly referenced and connected to Damian book, Pinocchio is *dark*. By doing so he also acknowledges a Margret Atwood essay on the relationship between Batman and Robin (I can pull the quote if you want) to Ariel and Puck from Shakespeare. In a nice, neat, and nifty move he even ties in Robin: SOB and Lobdell's take on Jason and Talia's relationship to A Midsummer Night's Dream as Damian is the only Robin who actually acts like Puck aka Robin Goodfellow and Peter Pan. The other Robins and Batkids are all, as you pointed out DC should finally acknowledge, Anne Shirley. 

Which, while not pertaining to this thread, is why I hate the idea of Bruce dating or married because he's Marilla Cuthbert, and Marilla doesn't need a man to rectify her existence, her adopted child is more than enough. The same with Bruce. He doesn't need a woman to rectify him and make him happy, even King has dropped that his boys are more than enough to make him happy. Stop trying to marry off my male Marilla, DC. Let him be happy with his gender flipped Anne Shirleys (and Damian).

The Detective Comics issue that flew over everyone's heads with Bruce racing to prevent Deacon Blackfire from possessing his grandson's body was a direct callback to The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, which itself, along with his appearance in 2011's Birds of Prey, and Death and the Maidens are all a nod to Octavia Butler's _Wildseed_ books. That and he's Oberon to Damian's Puck, really quite literally when you realize that Damian's Year of Blood challenges and time limits match up with Puck's lines. 

I'm sure there's more in Tec, but I can't stand Tynion's writing and haven't managed to get into anyone else. I think he did sort of acknowledge Fu Manchu, but Denny O'Neil's official stance on that is still "No! I didn't intend to plagiarize the Fu Manchu and Bond books," which c'mon man, I've read all the public domain Fu Machus, seen all the Bond movies and read most of Fleming's books, and the Ra's and Talia stories. I was super confused as a little kid to learn that James Bond wasn't in the Batman world because Talia absolutely was. (Caroline Munro was the unofficial model for Talia. And that's something both Adams and O'Neil indirectly acknowledge because a) it's obvious, and b) they both admit to having serious crushes on her. As do we all.)

There's more, but the only other thing I can place is Damian in Metal and Robin: SOB making a nod to A Wizard of Earthsea by embracing his darkest selves, acknowledging them, and thereby destroying them.

I'm glad you caught The Scarlet Letter and Little Lord Fauntleroy. I missed those the first time, but now see them.

----------


## oasis1313

In Nightwing #51 (I think it was that issue), there was a sign that read, "Melville Street", which I felt was probably a nod to "Moby Dick" and Bludhaven's past as a whaling town.

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

> In Nightwing #51 (I think it was that issue), there was a sign that read, "Melville Street", which I felt was probably a nod to "Moby Dick" and Bludhaven's past as a whaling town.


Oh! Nice catch. The arc that just finished in Red Hood references The Stepford Wives and something else, I'm not sure what. Probably several things, but the robot at the end definitely is a nod to the highly underrated remake.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh! Nice catch. The arc that just finished in Red Hood references The Stepford Wives and something else, I'm not sure what. Probably several things, but the robot at the end definitely is a nod to the highly underrated remake.


Ha ha--Tim Dreck is the Stepford Robin.  Which explains a LOT.  Tynion referenced a lot of heavy literature like "Horton Hears a Who," which was probably very challenging.  I really appreciate your hard work in the paragraphs above!

----------


## Arctic Cyclist

Super Sons had Damian being assigned to read A Winter's Tale which _I know_ no one read because there's no way any middle school could get away with teaching it. It works really well for a metaphor for Gotham, Batman, and any Robin, particularly Jason and Damian, but that baby's a banned book for a reason. I'm vehemently opposed to banning books and all for letting kids read what they want (I read Clan of the Cave Bears and it's sequels in class in 6th grade, Myra Breckenridge in seventh, although not at school as one teacher saw it and said take it home or I take it away) but even I would have concerns about sections of that book. Mainly how the instructor intended to address the incest, which the movie cheerfully agrees is a couple hundred pages of unnecessary. 

I like to think that the entire Rebirth Jason having to go undercover is because of Damian's comment in Deathstroke #5 about watching Oprah and drinking beer with League of Assassin members is about Jason. They're the two Robins who are consistently and constantly shown as voracious readers who happily read anything and everything, it would be perfectly in character for Jason to decide to bond with Damian through Oprah's book club. And by discussing and sampling beer because my favorite part of Jason and Talia's friendships across universes and timelines is the two of them like to hang out with tea or booze and discuss their lives and books. I hate how their epic bromance keeps getting erased or downplayed because of what Winnick admits he should have never have written. I can see Alfred's catching them being the reason for Jason's sudden exile and undercover assignment. It's basically Bruce's version of grounding his adult children.

It's also a reference to The Squid and the Whale.

----------


## G-Potion

https://mobile.twitter.com/thatpetewoods

Red Hood 31.

----------


## Zaresh

> https://mobile.twitter.com/thatpetewoods
> 
> Red Hood 31.


That one at the right is Tim as Red Robin I think. Definitely some kind of flashback. I'm going to guess that we are about to get confirmed some more bits from Jason's story in the New 52 (how he was captured by Joker. Please, please, don't be the Joker conspiracy stuff).

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> https://mobile.twitter.com/thatpetewoods
> 
> Red Hood 31.


Ah, that is a flashback from DOTF. 

Is been a while so I guess is fine to tell it, Snyder did plan to have Jason losing his face during that story. He figured he would give Tynion a hand to kickstart his run with a bang, but thankfully, the cover leaked and editorial realized the pain in the ass that would be for trades if the story didn't actually ended in the main title and axed the idea. We were lucky.

Anyways, Dexter posted this

https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...65528098402304

No confirmation on who is Batman but he looks a lot like Jay.

----------


## Arsenal

That sounds like an aweful idea. We really dodged a bullet with that one.

----------


## RedBird

> Ah, that is a flashback from DOTF. 
> 
> Is been a while so I guess is fine to tell it, Snyder did plan to have Jason losing his face during that story. He figured he would give Tynion a hand to kickstart his run with a bang, but thankfully, the cover leaked and editorial realized the pain in the ass that would be for trades if the story didn't actually ended in the main title and axed the idea. We were lucky.
> 
> Anyways, Dexter posted this
> 
> https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...65528098402304
> 
> No confirmation on who is Batman but he looks a lot like Jay.


Yeah I remember that, though I dont understand why that was the direction Snyder wanted in the first place. Was it supposed to contrast the Joker at the time? Did DC want a darker direction for Jason at that point? Was it supposed to work into Tynions plot for rhato ie the whole amnesia thing, another loss of identity? Was it supposed to be a permanant addition to the character? *shrug

And oooh yes I saw that piece as well and yes it definately looks like Jason. It doesn't look anything like Bruce did in rhato rebirth 6 thats for sure.

----------


## Zaresh

Yet another reason to not like Snyder's wild ideas. Yikes. Not my cup of tea. A scar, some mark or brand, like in AK, is already a bit too much on the edgy side for me. The whole face being burnt, no thanks.

I already lived through the 90's and it wasn't very pleasant. Just a little bit.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Yeah I remember that, though I dont understand why that was the direction Snyder wanted in the first place. Was it supposed to contrast the Joker at the time? Did DC want a darker direction for Jason at that point? Was it supposed to work into Tynions plot for rhato ie the whole amnesia thing, another loss of identity? Was it supposed to be a permanant addition to the character? *shrug


Pure shock value. And the amnesia plot was something Tynion threw together at the last moment after the original plan of having a mutilated Jason fell through.

----------


## RedBird

For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is old leaked cover for new 52 rhato #19.

Red_Hood_and_the_Outlaws_Vol_1_19_WTF_Solicit.jpg

Talk about edgelord XD

----------


## kaimaciel

[QUOTE=Dark_Tzitzimine;4102606]  Is been a while so I guess is fine to tell it, Snyder did plan to have Jason losing his face during that story. He figured he would give Tynion a hand to kickstart his run with a bang, but thankfully, the cover leaked and editorial realized the pain in the ass that would be for trades if the story didn't actually ended in the main title and axed the idea. We were lucky.
/QUOTE]

Oh God! I remember that. I don't think a single person liked the idea. People were flat out horrified by that.

----------


## Zaresh

> For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is old leaked cover for new 52 rhato #19.
> 
> Red_Hood_and_the_Outlaws_Vol_1_19_WTF_Solicit.jpg
> 
> Talk about edgelord XD


We are lucky, for once.

----------


## RedBird

> Pure shock value. And the amnesia plot was something Tynion threw together at the last moment after the original plan of having a mutilated Jason fell through.


Hmm, I wonder (morbidly) what Tynions original story was going to be, assuming he has already been planning around the Snyder idea. 




> Oh God! I remember that. I don't think a single person liked the idea. People were flat out horrified by that.


When you think about it, it's almost absurdly hilarious, such an edgelord move to pull with any of the bat characters but especially with Jason. 
I mean, the idea behind Jasons conflict with the Joker is not the physical damage he has caused him so much as the psychological tormented aftermath, that's the whole point, even in situations like the Arkham games where Joker physically hurts Jason for nearly a year, that pales in comparison to the mental damage and mental torture that he endured, his emotional pain already shaped him in both continuities. So trying to add on this life changing horrific scar to a character that has already been beaten and blown up and killed is almost laughable, it's just piling on such unnecessary shock value to a character that has already endured and has been shaped by events fueled with shock value. Apparently being beaten and dying from the Joker wasn't enough ladies and gentlemen, Jason will now have entire face burned off by the Joker so he may never take off the hood. Where do you even go from here? XD Next step, Joker will snap Jasons arms to ensure he never can use guns again XD and why  stop there, I'm sure we can keep inflicting more and more SAW-esque gross-out violence. Jeez

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## RedBird

Inkydandy

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## Sergard

Pete Woods on Twitter:

"_Troof- even though Jason’s face is in shadow and he wears a mask I often draw his entire head and expression in the layout stage because I’m a control freak and kinda stupid._" (source)





"_December’s issue 29 of Red Hood is probably one of my favorite books I’ve ever done. I cranked this issue out finishing 11 pages in a week and I loved every second of it. I hope you dug it too._" (source)

----------


## RedBird

> Pete Woods on Twitter:
> 
> "_Troof- even though Jason’s face is in shadow and he wears a mask I often draw his entire head and expression in the layout stage because I’m a control freak and kinda stupid._" (source)
> 
> 
> "_December’s issue 29 of Red Hood is probably one of my favorite books I’ve ever done. I cranked this issue out finishing 11 pages in a week and I loved every second of it. I hope you dug it too._" (source)


First I can totally understand the need to draw the face regardless, I think it genuinely helps to shape the expression (even with what little there is) and angles of the face. Second, I'm genuinely both happy that he is having a great time on this series and impressed that he completed 11 pages in only a week, I mean the inks for the latest issue were quite possibly the best I've seen from Woods thus far.

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## Zaresh

> First I can totally understand the need to draw the face regardless, I think it genuinely helps to shape the expression (even with what little there is) and angles of the face. Second, I'm genuinely both happy that he is having a great time on this series and impressed that he completed 11 pages in only a week, I mean the inks for the latest issue were quite possibly the best I've seen from Woods thus far.


Agree to both. It helps me too, but then I'm an amateur artist, so maybe it is a weird thing to do for a professional.

I love how involved with this book the team members tend to get themselves. I think it says a lot of good about the book. And 11 pages in 7 days is kind of impressive. Anything faster than a page each two days is for me, to be honest.

----------


## G-Potion

True, most of us were impressed with the art in #29. Glad Woods had fun with it himself.

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## Sergard

> [...]Which, while not pertaining to this thread, is why I hate the idea of Bruce dating or married because he's Marilla Cuthbert, and Marilla doesn't need a man to rectify her existence, her adopted child is more than enough. The same with Bruce. He doesn't need a woman to rectify him and make him happy, even King has dropped that his boys are more than enough to make him happy. Stop trying to marry off my male Marilla, DC. Let him be happy with his gender flipped Anne Shirleys (and Damian).
> 
> The Detective Comics issue that flew over everyone's heads with Bruce racing to prevent Deacon Blackfire from possessing his grandson's body was a direct callback to The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, which itself, along with his appearance in 2011's Birds of Prey, and Death and the Maidens are all a nod to Octavia Butler's _Wildseed_ books. That and he's Oberon to Damian's Puck, really quite literally when you realize that Damian's Year of Blood challenges and time limits match up with Puck's lines.[...]


I see, there are a lot of literature references. And I have to admit I don't even know half of the mentioned titles. On the other hand I wonder what are the criteria, so that one can call similarities between two stories a "literature reference" - and when is something just pure coincidence. For example, I wouldn't go so far as comparing the first three Robins with Anne Shirley and Bruce with Marilla. At least in my opinion, it is only a very superficial similarity between Bruce and Marilla of having a "grumpy" personality and adopting a child (children) that changes them to the better. (And a little off-topic: I actually felt a little sorry for Marilla for not having a partner because she and Gilbert's father had been a couple in the past, but because of a quarrel the broke up and never got back together. If I remember correctly, it's even mentioned in the book that Marilla still regrets that break-up.)

It probably also depends on which relationship one looks at. The relationship of Bruce to one of his adopted sons may look like Marilla and Anne, but regarding the four brothers and how they are presented, I don't feel like there are three Annes and one Puck/Peter Pan. I rather like to compare them with the four sisters of "Little Women" (or even the sisters of "Pride and Prejudice").

Interesting that you mention the Deacon Blackfire issue. That was Detective Comics #982.  I didn't even connect the dots with Ra's al Ghul. Although, in my defense, when I read the issue, it was in the middle of the night and I was baking a cake. I even had to read the name of the kidnapped boy - Joshua - twice because the first time I read "Jason" (I repeat: middle of the night, cake, I was really tired.) And from that point forward I couldn't get rid of the thought that everything was some kind of metaphor with Joshua being Jason - the kid who is trapped in the darkness and needs to be rescued by Batman.  At some point Batman even calls for Robin (although Damian isn't part of the mission.), which makes me wonder if Batman was really calling for Damian - or for Robin Jason or Robin in general.

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## Sergard

> https://mobile.twitter.com/thatpetewoods
> 
> Red Hood 31.


By the way, who is the guy in the background? Reminds me of Bunker because of the mask and the two bands at the back of the head. Is Jason meeting Bunker in Mexiko? Do they even know each other? I remember Roy and Starfire working together with the Teen Titans while Jason and Tim were trapped by the Joker. Did they meet afterwards?

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## Zaresh

> By the way, who is the guy in the background? Reminds me of Bunker because of the mask and the two bands at the back of the head. Is Jason meeting Bunker in Mexiko? Do they even know each other? I remember Roy and Starfire working together with the Teen Titans while Jason and Tim were trapped by the Joker. Did they meet afterwards?


Bunker was a nice guy. I liked him, but I don't know how Lobdell could make him work with Jason as he's behaving and acting now.

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## Arctic Cyclist

> I see, there are a lot of literature references. And I have to admit I don't even know half of the mentioned titles. On the other hand I wonder what are the criteria, so that one can call similarities between two stories a "literature reference" - and when is something just pure coincidence. For example, I wouldn't go so far as comparing the first three Robins with Anne Shirley and Bruce with Marilla. At least in my opinion, it is only a very superficial similarity between Bruce and Marilla of having a "grumpy" personality and adopting a child (children) that changes them to the better. (And a little off-topic: I actually felt a little sorry for Marilla for not having a partner because she and Gilbert's father had been a couple in the past, but because of a quarrel the broke up and never got back together. If I remember correctly, it's even mentioned in the book that Marilla still regrets that break-up.)
> 
> It probably also depends on which relationship one looks at. The relationship of Bruce to one of his adopted sons may look like Marilla and Anne, but regarding the four brothers and how they are presented, I don't feel like there are three Annes and one Puck/Peter Pan. I rather like to compare them with the four sisters of "Little Women" (or even the sisters of "Pride and Prejudice").
> 
> Interesting that you mention the Deacon Blackfire issue. That was Detective Comics #982.  I didn't even connect the dots with Ra's al Ghul. Although, in my defense, when I read the issue, it was in the middle of the night and I was baking a cake. I even had to read the name of the kidnapped boy - Joshua - twice because the first time I read "Jason" (I repeat: middle of the night, cake, I was really tired.) And from that point forward I couldn't get rid of the thought that everything was some kind of metaphor with Joshua being Jason - the kid who is trapped in the darkness and needs to be rescued by Batman.  At some point Batman even calls for Robin (although Damian isn't part of the mission.), which makes me wonder if Batman was really calling for Damian - or for Robin Jason or Robin in general.


I could absolutely see the Robins as the sisters from Little Women and Pride and Prejudice. They're definitely the Power Puff Girls. Actually, after sleeping on it, Damian's maybe more of an Anne Shirley than any of the others as his tendency to run wild, do creative things, and seek out bosom buddies are pretty well established character traits. I haven't read the Anne books, Little Women, or any Austin for years. I don't know which character each Robin would best represent.

As someone who spends too much time on lit sites, I say all of these hat tips count and allusions count. Possibly because they're easy to find. I tried to find all the ones in Paul Trembly's Head Full of Ghosts and only found a quarter of the ones he's said are there (others have found them all; I think they cheated by using collaboration). 

I can see why you thought it was Jason, you're a Jason fan and all the post animated movie Damian fans didn't catch that it was Damian. There's also the fact it was Jason's Robin who saved Bruce from Blackfire, and gave him the strength to break his Stockholm Syndrome and conditioning and defeat the Deacon. I'm a Damian fan first, Jason second. For me, Bruce's calling out Robin confirms that it was Damian since he's the only one that both Bruce and Dick have referred to as Robin outside of uniform. What's really interesting is back in Morrison's Batman and Robin, his deranged clone sees Damian outside of uniform and recognizes him as both his son (or as the clone says, greatest mistake, and bad blood which Bruce repeats in Incorporated 13) and Robin despite Damian's becoming Robin well after his death; and Bruce's frequent swearing he'd never be Robin. (Bruce rejected Damian as Robin three times before his death, and yes, that too was a reference but it's Morrison. Morrison appears to have a goal of at least four references per page.)

The whole issue is a way for him to work through the fact that in the original story, as Talia pointed out, Ra's had a time limit and all that needed to happen to win was keeping Damian safe for a few days. Instead Bruce went after Ra's, and was manipulated, via the threat to Tim, to getting Ra's to the one place the transfer could happen. So it was a redemption story of sorts, and a reference to Damian having the darkest past of any member of the Batfamily or hero community (apparently the numbers of deaths he's directly responsible for is high six figures, or over seven figures). 

Jason's past is dark and bad, but it's still in the normal range compared to Damian. Remember, according to Talia and Durca, he has an incorruptible heart of pure pureness. Jason's a Sailor Scout. He might even be Sailor Moon, because Bruce sure isn't anymore.

----------


## Sergard

Pete Woods: "_On the desk today- Jason beating people up. Its his thing._" (source)




Seems like Jason and Wingman aren't best buddies.
But Jason has finally taken the katana out of the bag - and is still not using it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Jason's probably the most underrated Batman character out there.
> 
> He's been handled terribly in the past, but the New 52 version is an awesome mix of hero and badass.


I think it helps to have a regular writer taking care of him for the past several years.  Love Jason's badass attitude; this is what he was meant to be.

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## Robanker

> I think it helps to have a regular writer taking care of him for the past several years.  Love Jason's badass attitude; this is what he was meant to be.


While I agree with you this is likely his intent by Judd Winnick, it's the dark trinity run that made me care about Jason as anything more than a plot device or cannon fodder when DC needed a Robin to bite it. Making him a poor-man's Punisher doesn't work when they want to maintain his connection to Batman for sales boost crossovers.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

So....looks like bizarro and Artemis aren’t returning?

----------


## Zaresh

> So....looks like bizarro and Artemis aren’t returning?


Last news we had, they were planned to return, even if it was going to be for an actual goodbye story. But that was when the new "run" started. And a lot of stuff has happened in DC since then, a lot of changes, I think

----------


## oasis1313

> Last news we had, they were planned to return, even if it was going to be for an actual goodbye story. But that was when the new "run" started. And a lot of stuff has happened in DC since then, a lot of changes, I think


I hope they come back.  They made a far better supporting cast for Jason than Roy and Kory.  But Jason has proven he can carry a book by himself.

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## Zaresh

> I hope they come back.  They made a far better supporting cast for Jason than Roy and Kory.  But Jason has proven he can carry a book by himself.


I agree. They work better than the previous team, better chemistry, more balanced and more fun dynamics.
The reason I suspect Art and Biz are going to be away for a while more is how well the book is doing, precisely. It seems that Solo!Jason works as well as Team!Jason sales wise, even if I prefer him in a team (not that I dislike him by himself, but just not forever by himself is what I mean; he needs people to shine with all his range of traits and emotions, too).

----------


## oasis1313

> I agree. They work better than the previous team, better chemistry, more balanced and more fun dynamics.
> The reason I suspect Art and Biz are going to be away for a while more is how well the book is doing, precisely. It seems that Solo!Jason works as well as Team!Jason sales wise, even if I prefer him in a team (not that I dislike him by himself, but just not forever by himself is what I mean; he needs people to shine with all his range of traits and emotions, too).


Second that.  Jason doesn't need to be "Jason and" anybody.  The other characters are just there to frame HIM.  Sure, Artemis and Bizarro are a lot of fun, but they could be traded for, say, Frankenstein and Platinum (from Metal Men) and you could do a great story,

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I agree. They work better than the previous team, better chemistry, more balanced and more fun dynamics.
> The reason I suspect Art and Biz are going to be away for a while more is how well the book is doing, precisely. It seems that Solo!Jason works as well as Team!Jason sales wise, even if I prefer him in a team (not that I dislike him by himself, but just not forever by himself is what I mean; he needs people to shine with all his range of traits and emotions, too).


To be honest, I found more engaging the character dynamics of the old Outlaws than the Dark Trinity. This because whereas Roy and Kory had engaging personalities that allowed them to work on stories completely on their own, while the Dark Trinity bored me out of my skull when they didn't have Jason around (Artemis in particular).

----------


## KC93

> To be honest, I found more engaging the character dynamics of the old Outlaws than the Dark Trinity. This because whereas Roy and Kory had engaging personalities that allowed them to work on stories completely on their own, while the Dark Trinity bored me out of my skull when they didn't have Jason around (Artemis in particular).


I really wanted to like the dark trinity, but unfortunately I have to agree with this.

----------


## Sergard

I love the dark trinity. But I also love Jason going solo or teaming up with other people.
Nevertheless, Artemis and Bizarro hold a special place since they are basically Jason's family.
I hope the next annual will give us some information about their situation.
If DC wants to entertain fans (including me) of the _Countdown_-Challengers from the Beyond, they even could temporary team up Jason, Donna and Kyle and let them travel through the dark multiverse to find Artemis and Bizarro. (It would also be interesting to see Artemis and Donna interact with each other).

----------


## Celgress

> 


very nice  :Cool:

----------


## adrikito

> I found some nice fanarts with Jason and Damian from April 2018. I hope they haven't been posted yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (source)


I like these fanarts.. And the others 2 with Bat and Beyond Damian.

----------


## Arsenal

I reread RHATO Vol 3 and seeing Biz’s first interaction with Solitary makes me wonder if he’s the one preventing Jason from finding their location. He did apparently unite the Dark Trinity so maybe that ties into Jason’s sudden return to Gotham in issue 32(?).

----------


## kaimaciel

Red Hood: Jason Todd May Have Finally Become Irredeemable

For the love of God, CBR.

----------


## RedBird

Happy New Year guys  :Smile: 
Already here in the magnificent far-off year of 2019

----------


## Sergard

> Red Hood: Jason Todd May Have Finally Become Irredeemable
> 
> For the love of God, CBR.


I just skimmed through the article a minute before you posted the link.
First I was confused because I thought that some new information about upcoming events had been published.
But it's just a summary of old events in RHatO and the solicitations of upcoming issues.

@RedBird: Happy New Year  :Smile:

----------


## kaimaciel

> Happy New Year guys 
> Already here in the magnificent far-off year of 2019


Happy New Year! How's the future? I'm still 9 hours away from 2019!

----------


## G-Potion

I have 2 hours to go. Happy New Year!  :Big Grin: 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Vorimar_raaaaan

----------


## Zaresh

> Red Hood: Jason Todd May Have Finally Become Irredeemable
> 
> For the love of God, CBR.


Pfffff... With all due respect to the author: Bleh.

*Happy New Year to you all!*

----------


## RedBird

> Happy New Year! How's the future? I'm still 9 hours away from 2019!


Looks about the same,  :Stick Out Tongue:  although now I'm gonna have to get used to writing 2019 instead of 2018, I swear with every new year I struggle remembering the new date for a good month or so.

Also thanks guys! Enjoy your New Year!

----------


## oasis1313

> Pfffff... With all due respect to the author: Bleh.
> 
> *Happy New Year to you all!*


Well, Jason's "exile" didn't last long, did it?  Whoever wrote this was just looking for clickbait.

----------


## Sergard

(source)

----------


## oasis1313

Ha--instead of the Rockettes, these little darlings could be the Hoodettes with those high kicks.

----------


## RedBird

> (source)


Aww thats so cute  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zaresh

> (source)







> I have 2 hours to go. Happy New Year! 
> 
> https://mobile.twitter.com/Vorimar_raaaaan


The Cutest.

----------


## Celgress

> 


so cute  :Big Grin:

----------

