# Comics  > Batman >  Cassandra Cain (Batgirl, Black Bat) Appreciation

## godisawesome

Finishing the trifecta of Red, Purple, and Black.

Our girl's still MIA, but we've got that Hing Kong issue of Eternal coming up. If the guys in charge of that book have been given any leeway, we could have at least some kind of sideways reference to Cass.

Also, I want to start off with one of my favorite pictures, featuring two of my favorite characters.
image.jpg

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## Hopeful Hero

Dude. You just made my day. Those two are my favorite heroes also. I miss Cass Cain. Heck I miss when they were dating (though short it was..)

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## Vworp Vworp

http://bigchrisgallery.deviantart.com/

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## Godzilla2099

Cassandra Cain is my favorite heroine ever!

For those who don't know my girl:



*General*
Cassandra Cain’s stats are given.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...read/01402.jpg
*
Strength*
She kicks a hole through a brick wall.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl002-15.jpg

*Easily beats down a metahuman strong enough to casually punch through walls and bust through train cars.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-07.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-13.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-14.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-15.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-16.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-17.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-18.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-19.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl003-20.jpg

*Beats a metahuman around with enough force to leave dents in a brick wall.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p17.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p18.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p19.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p20.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p21.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl10p22.jpg

*After a few kicks, she breaks through three-inch quartz, taking out multiple SWAT members in the process.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-14.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-15.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-16.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...girl019-17.jpg
*
During a training session, she shatters multiple wooden (presumably) dummies with ease.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...l021-02-03.jpg

*While fighting Shiva, she breaks through brick structures.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...read/02517.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...read/02518.jpg

*Batman instructs Batgirl to KO a superhuman (should he wake up) with enough force to destroy a normal skull, which she does with ease.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...irl_033_02.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...irl_033_03.jpg

*Without looking, she backfists someone with enough force to flip them over backwards.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...35kebbin10.jpg

*She KO's a large telepathic monster with one punch.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...41kebbin19.jpg

*In training, with a flip kick, she used enough force to make Onyx fly several meters and break a sofa in half.*
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...tgirl60-05.jpg

*I can't take credit for these finds.  I pulled them from a previous anime forum I used to post at*

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## Penguin Truth

I recently listened to the audiobook version of Greg Rucka's novelization of No Man's Land and it reminded me (not that I really needed it) of just how much I love Cassie and miss her. 

Amazing audiobook, by the way. Get it. 

Today I picked up Scott Snyder's Gates of Gotham, and I like her interactions with Tim and Damian.

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## heyevaxx

@Godzilla2099
Your amazing list of Cass pics aren't working for me, both FF and Chrome yield redirect errors, IE failed too. Is everyone else able to load them? Maybe it's my setup.

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## heyevaxx

Can't wait for Cass to return! Such a rich, interesting character in addition to being a total rump kicker.
*Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) isolated cover from Batman And The Outsiders #08 2008-08 by Doug Braithwaite and Brian Reber*

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## Vanguard-01

I love Cass and think it's a crime that she's been so neglected for so long.

Hopefully Stephanie Brown's triumphant return heralds her return in the near future as well.

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## Blight

My latest acquisition from C2E2 (and ironically ended the previous thread with) from Peter V. Nguyen:

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## Lorendiac

> Also, I want to start off with one of my favorite pictures, featuring two of my favorite characters.
> image.jpg


I bought that issue when it first came out. Looking back, I seem to recall wondering just _how_ Cassandra did that. Right now, my best guess is that at the subconscious level Kon-El's "tactile telekinesis" ability _knew_ he didn't see "this smoking hot Batgirl chick" as a deadly threat, and he secretly _wanted her_ to touch him, so when she started to slap him on the face, his usually-automatically-activated telekinetic force field just (figuratively) stuck its hands in its pockets and whistled a nonchalant tune, saying to itself: "Nope, there's nothing I need to be doing right now -- I'll just mind my own business and let these two crazy kids work it out among themselves!"

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## Black Angel

i can only imagine how much more epic she will be in the new 52 i mean look how much stronger rose wilson is i can only see them doing the same of my girl Cass. They better not change the fact that shiva is her mom though.

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## Lorendiac

> They better not change the fact that shiva is her mom though.


On the other hand, I always hated the ideas of "David Cain is her father and Lady Shiva is her mother." This would be a great time to flush it down the toilet and forget it for good!

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## scary harpy

> On the other hand, I always hated the ideas of "David Cain is her father and Lady Shiva is her mother." This would be a great time to flush it down the toilet and forget it for good!


Shiva has/had a sister. How about her and Cain as Cass's parents?

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## Lorendiac

> Shiva has/had a sister. How about her and Cain as Cass's parents?


I think I've seen that idea come up before. It would be slightly less awful, from my point of view (which is not quite the same thing as "strikes me as a good idea"). 

Let me clarify my thinking: The basic premise of Cassandra's origin story, in her first couple of years onstage in DC's comics (around 1999 and 2000), was this: "She was the subject of a psychological experiment to see if a baby girl who was never exposed to spoken language in her formative years could instead be taught to use all the language-and-speech portions of her brain to study human 'body language' instead, thereby becoming almost telepathic in her ability to know what you were going to do next. Train her in unarmed combat and in various weapons, and she'd have the makings of an unstoppable assassin." 

Her genes were supposed to be _irrelevant_ to the outcome of that approach to raising a "perfect killer from scratch." I don't like the idea that her status as "one of the finest martial artists in the world" was influenced by her inheriting the superior reflexes, coordination, etc., of two of the deadliest non-superpowered killers in the world: Cain and Shiva. Even having her just be the daughter of _one_ of them, and the _niece_ of the other, would be no great improvement. I prefer the original implications of "it's not the _heredity_; it's _all about_ the extremely unusual childhood _environment!_" If she had a huge genetic "head start," that invalidates the whole point of a purely psychological experiment.

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## ceroxide

so I heard a rumor that both Batgirl and Spoiler will make an appearance in Arkham Knight. We already know that Spoiler is Steph and Oracle is Babs so does that mean Batgirl will be Cass?

I really hope this is more than a rumor, Cass is by far my favorite Batgirl/Black Bat/ninja badass

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## Punisher007

I like the "Lady Shiva is her mother" aspect of her background.  However, since Shiva is so much younger in the New 52, her being Cass's older sister or something like that could also work fine.

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## ABH

Cass was my favorite Batgirl, and I'd love to see more of her as Black Bat...

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## ABH

Tim & Cass

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## ABH



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## scary harpy

I adore Cassandra. I dislike the name Black Bat; I really dislike the costume. She looks like she's dressed in rags!

I know she can't return as Batgirl but I hope she isn't Black Bat. Why would she be? She has no connection to Batman now.

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## Batknight

> I adore Cassandra. I dislike the name Black Bat; I really dislike the costume. She looks like she's dressed in rags!
> 
> I know she can't return as Batgirl but I hope she isn't Black Bat. Why would she be? She has no connection to Batman now.


Well when she comes back eventually she most likely will.

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## heyevaxx

*"Cassandra Cain: Black Bat July 2014"* fan art by Thomas Branch, branch56.tumblr.com

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## Flash Gordon

I think BLACK BAT fits her well. I'd rather she was BATGIRL, but I can settle. Just give her a damn solo!

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## scary harpy

> *"Cassandra Cain: Black Bat July 2014"* fan art by Thomas Branch, branch56.tumblr.com


I saw that picture on deviantart. It's beautiful.

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## scary harpy

> I think BLACK BAT fits her well. I'd rather she was BATGIRL, but I can settle. Just give her a damn solo!


I am tired of series that get cancelled. 

How about a backup feature in Blackwing? Do both of them good. If the artist and/or writer chosen for her don't cut it, other combination can be tried for her seires.

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## wyze2099

> 


I've never seen this one before, but that is absolutely beautiful.

Cassandra is one of my favorite comic book characters ever. She has such a unique upbringing and way of perceiving the world that she's endlessly fascinating. Unfortunately, she's also an easy character to screw up if a writer doesn't fully understand her. For that reason, I actually don't mind that she hasn't yet appeared in the New52 universe; I'd rather have her absent than mishandled.

If nobody minds a fanfiction link: I've even been writing a Batgirl fanfic series starring Cassandra. It takes place in a rebooted shared-continuity DC universe in which Batman's been active for five years, Superman recently debuted, superheroes are starting to become public, and Cassandra Cain happens to be in a position of becoming the first Batgirl. The Batgirl series can be read here, along with links to the rest of the site.

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## Kurisu

> *"Cassandra Cain: Black Bat July 2014"* fan art by Thomas Branch, branch56.tumblr.com


I'm not too keen on Black Bat, but my god, yes. That's gorgeous. Put this in my life, DC.

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## nepenthes

This thread makes it clear that Cassandra Cain has easily the best fan art around her. 

Tim Drake has the worst.

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## godisawesome

Well, yeah.

Cass is a female hero in the same type as Korra. She's a badass warrior of unspeakable awesome who also happens to be (to quote Tim) "smoking." Her fanbase runs the gamut, but just about everyone respects her as a warrior and fighter first and foremost. Tim's supposed to be the more relateable geek who just happens to be a good fighter. Cass is one of a kind. Tim depends on the details to highlight his awesome.



That, and the majority of Tim's fanart seems to be drawn by fan girls focused on how attractive he is. Or their the _shippers_.

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## Punisher007

Since I seriously doubt that DC will give Cass her own solo book anytime soon (unfortunately), I propose another possibility.  A Black Bat and Spoiler team-up book.  Come on, Cass and Steph work great as friends and they'd balance each other out well.  Plus, you could combine the fanbases and thus boost sales.  Heck, throw Bluebird and Carrie Kelly in there and make it "Birds of Prey-teen edition."

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## Blight

> 



Oh a heads up for those who love this art. Dustin Nguyen has this all in his sketch book. So worth the price. It also has this great little mini-comic too:

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## Blight

> Since I seriously doubt that DC will give Cass her own solo book anytime soon (unfortunately), I propose another possibility.  A Black Bat and Spoiler team-up book.  Come on, Cass and Steph work great as friends and they'd balance each other out well.  Plus, you could combine the fanbases and thus boost sales.  Heck, throw Bluebird and Carrie Kelly in there and make it "Birds of Prey-teen edition."



Cass, Steph, and Barbara plus thrown in Bette or Helena. Bam the book would be golden as this from Marcus To:




http://fav.me/d41xx97

Though I'd kill for Damion Scott, Marcus To, or Dustin Nguyen to draw the book. They'd blow the book out of the water.

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## wyze2099

> Oh a heads up for those who love this art. Dustin Nguyen has this all in his sketch book. So worth the price. It also has this great little mini-comic too:


So THAT's where they've been all this time!

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## Blight

psuedofolio

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## wyze2099

Y'know, I really like that character design of Cassandra with the unruly hair that has two points sticking straight up like Batman's cowl. I may have to borrow that for my Batgirl fanfic series.

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## Blight

> Y'know, I really like that character design of Cassandra with the unruly hair that has two points sticking straight up like Batman's cowl. I may have to borrow that for my Batgirl fanfic series.


It's a fun look and I like that the artist has mastered her regular and done this version now and again:




Psuedofolio

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## Mecegirl

I just don't get how so much awesome can be left in limbo.
Anywho posting a few of my favorite fanarts.

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## mera

So I'm really curious about Cassandra Cain. Seeing that I'm daily new to DC comics, could someone point me towards key issues of her? Where is her origin story? I ordered Batgirl 1-5 both Vol 1&2. Do I need other issues to learn more? Please help me. haha

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## Tim Drake

> So I'm really curious about Cassandra Cain. Seeing that I'm daily new to DC comics, could someone point me towards key issues of her? Where is her origin story? I ordered Batgirl 1-5 both Vol 1&2. Do I need other issues to learn more? Please help me. haha


Well, other than her solo title which you have already ordered you could read No Man's Land which is where Cassandra was introduced. This is where you see her as Batgirl for the first time and it was what first made me like the character. If you are looking for the most recent issues with her, Gates of Gotham was pretty amazing too. And I may be biased on this one considering my username but I loved Robin/Batgirl: Fresh Blood solely for focusing on Tim and Cassandra's friendship which is one of my favorite friendships of the Bat-Family. But for me all of my top moments were in her solo title so if just read that and nothing else you will still get to read the very best of Cassandra.

My memory is so shoddy, I hope I didn't forget anything important with Cassandra in it.  :Frown:

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## heyevaxx

Cassandra Cain's first appearance was in Batman (1940) #567 Mark of Cain, Part One 1999-07 which is part of the Batman No Man's Land crossover. You can get this in trade form:
Batman No Man's Land Vol. 3 http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-nove...ans-land-vol-3

Here's a bunch of Cass Cain reading ordered lists. I think the Cassandra Cain Mainframe list is most complete and accurate. The ComicBookDB lists are nice because her TPB appearances are listed.

Cassandra Cain Mainframe http://casscain.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Un...rth_Chronology

Cassandra Cain Chronological http://comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=5349
Batgirl (Cain) Chronological http://comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=1747
Black Bat Chronological http://comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=55976 

Cassandra Cain Chronology http://www.dcuwiki.net/w/Black_Bat_%...%29_Chronology

Cassandra Cain Reading Order http://fyeahcassandracain.tumblr.com/reading%20order

One last new reader comment: Cass experiences a major character shift starting with Robin Volume 2 #148 2006-05. I mention this in case you jump around her chronology and wonder "WTF, this isn't Cass!?!?." This Robin issue was her first appearance after the One Year Later event and she had gone through some major, err, changes. Suffice to say, Cass fans were generally very upset and vocal about it. Eventually, DC Comics eased Cass back into a form that her fans knew and loved. But she didn't get her title back (despite it having decent sales at it's end) and she's still not on the radar for a New 52 return (despite her being one of the most popular female DC characters).

After you enjoy some Cass titles and you read some of her post One Year Later stuff, maybe check out CassToons at http://comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=1747 which was started after Cass's One Year Later change in protest and to blow off fandom steam. 

Casstoons took on a life of their own and ended up covering all comics, not just Cass. But she's the star! A lot of these little strips have made me LOL big time and they're all hard core Cass fans like us. If you try out Casstoons starting with the oldest (my link above), you'll note the art is pretty basic. It improves quite a bit over time and the main artist Espanolbot is quite good for these sort of fan strips. Also, this Who's Who in Casstoons is really handy for keeping track of everyone: http://editthis.info/Superdickery/Casstoons

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## Lorendiac

I've got a question and I'm posting this scan to illustrate it. This is from Cassandra's first published appearance in 1999, when the poor girl didn't even have a _name_ yet (as far as we readers knew); she was just this not-very-talkative Asian-looking girl who was working for Oracle in "No Man's Land" and suddenly threw herself in front of Jim Gordon to protect him from David Cain's sniper fire. In this scanned image, we get some good looks at her facial features. 

Now, I've never visited any portion of the Eastern Hemisphere, so I definitely don't know my way around Asia. My question is: Does Cassandra's face, in this page, strike anyone as looking particularly like what you'd expect to see in a _certain country_ in or near the region of the globe that is sometimes called "East Asia"? For instance, would your first guess be that she had lots of Japanese ancestry, or Korean, or Tibetan, or what? I'm just suddenly curious about what the artist (Damion Scott) was originally going for. (This was long before it was suggested that her biological father was actually David Cain, and even after that came out, more years went by before anyone suggested Lady Shiva might be her long-lost mother.) 

Here's what she looked like:

Cassandra debut.jpg

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## godisawesome

I think the overall idea was to just make her look mysterious and vaguely Asian. Though there might have been some inspiration from Lady Shiva's original Cambodian heritage (I remember reading that somewhere, but I could be wrong.) Of course, aside from the vague heritage of the character, her being athletic and emotive was her main identifying trait.

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## Zainu

I dunno, a lot of Asian groups tend to look alike. I'm three-quarters Taiwanese Hakka, but other Taiwanese people mistake me as a Korean exchange student sometimes. 

I like to think of Sandra and Carolyn Wu as being Chinese-Americans from Detroit, since Wu is a Chinese surname. The -san part of Wu-san might have been I-Ching using honorifics(Japanese '-san') with their name. I-Ching was a Japanese soldier to decided to take on the legacy of Chinese martial arts/tradition as repentance for what he did in China during WW2, so it's plausible. 

Edit: Also, I think that Gail Simone tried to retcon Sandra as Vietnamese(while upping BoP's martial arts level at Shiva's expense and ushering in Sin for Dinah to adopt)...but I'm going to ignore that, since her Shiva was nothing but a two-dimensional jobber and it would make more sense for her to be Chinese, otherwise, it would weaken her God daughter connection to I-Ching.

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## Blight

> So I'm really curious about Cassandra Cain. Seeing that I'm daily new to DC comics, could someone point me towards key issues of her? Where is her origin story? I ordered Batgirl 1-5 both Vol 1&2. Do I need other issues to learn more? Please help me. haha




Even with this list there's still so much to go through and there is stuff not listed. But it's a good guide nonetheless.

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## Arnoldoaad

I want to put this here as well as it is pretty much my favorite character moment of her

027-Batgirl050Rembrandt-DCP.jpg

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## oasis1313

I like Cassandra better as Batgirl, and Barbara better as Oracle.

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## Blight

> I want to put this here as well as it is pretty much my favorite character moment of her
> 
> Attachment 1232


It is a great moment with the character. Do you find it hard for a specific moment? I do. I mean there's so many great moments she had in her ongoing and even in Red Robin.

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## Lorendiac

> I dunno, a lot of Asian groups tend to look alike. I'm three-quarters Taiwanese Hakka, but other Taiwanese people mistake me as a Korean exchange student sometimes.


It did occur to me that I might be wasting my time by asking the question, but hey, what did I have to lose?  :Smile: 

It was also possible that someone would post a reply saying: "Gee, Panel 2 of that scanned page makes her look remarkably like some of my cousins from Hokkaido -- their ancestors have been living on that island for at least four hundred years and counting," or perhaps "she looks a heck of a lot like an immigrant from Tibet who sits right next to me in Biology 101," or whatever. 

I think one of the reasons I'd been wondering about "what sort of nationality did she appear to have when she debuted?" was that it's sometimes annoyed me that over the years, as different artists came and went, Cass's physical appearance seemed to vary drastically. You never quite knew if her eyes would be brown or green, if her hair would be jet-black or brown, if her cheekbones would seem to have gotten less pronounced, etc., not to mention how variable her _complexion_ could be. (She wasn't much of a one for using lots of makeup, so I don't think that accounts for it.)  

I think I used to wonder if one artist wanted to make her look, let's say, Korean . . . and another wanted to make her look Vietnamese . . . and another thought she was supposed to look as if she had ancestry from a certain corner of China . . . and so forth. (That was a slightly more palatable idea than "the artists are too lazy to make _any effort_ to respect what she _originally_ looked like, so they just draw whatever seems 'cute' in an East Asian girl, according to their personal tastes!")

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## Blight

> It did occur to me that I might be wasting my time by asking the question, but hey, what did I have to lose? 
> 
> It was also possible that someone would post a reply saying: "Gee, Panel 2 of that scanned page makes her look remarkably like some of my cousins from Hokkaido -- their ancestors have been living on that island for at least four hundred years and counting," or perhaps "she looks a heck of a lot like an immigrant from Tibet who sits right next to me in Biology 101," or whatever. 
> 
> I think one of the reasons I'd been wondering about "what sort of nationality did she appear to have when she debuted?" was that it's sometimes annoyed me that over the years, as different artists came and went, Cass's physical appearance seemed to vary drastically. You never quite knew if her eyes would be brown or green, if her hair would be jet-black or brown, if her cheekbones would seem to have gotten less pronounced, etc., not to mention how variable her _complexion_ could be. (She wasn't much of a one for using lots of makeup, so I don't think that accounts for it.)  
> 
> I think I used to wonder if one artist wanted to make her look, let's say, Korean . . . and another wanted to make her look Vietnamese . . . and another thought she was supposed to look as if she had ancestry from a certain corner of China . . . and so forth. (That was a slightly more palatable idea than "the artists are too lazy to make _any effort_ to respect what she _originally_ looked like, so they just draw whatever seems 'cute' in an East Asian girl, according to their personal tastes!")


Not to mention the various ways at first artists depicted her without scars on her form yet it was said she had some. Then finally we saw them in Batman & the Outsiders. Though I think for Damion Scott portion I think he tweaked her appearance also to convey the fact that it had been a year since Cass's first encounter with Shiva and the promise of a death duel. She does slightly look older from #9 to #25.

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## Punisher007

The scar thing is kind of dumb across the board when it comes to the Bat-family.  With all of the villains or just plain thugs that they've fought.  With all of the times that they've been shot, stabbed, beaten severely, tortured, etc, they should all be covered in scars and burns.  At least _Arrow_ makes a point of acknowledging that GA and BC have lots of them.

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## Sardorim

Cassandra Cain had a lot of scars and the such when she was still a hero.

Than New 52 happened and where's my Cass?! Where's Black Bat?!

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## godisawesome

> The scar thing is kind of dumb across the board when it comes to the Bat-family.  With all of the villains or just plain thugs that they've fought.  With all of the times that they've been shot, stabbed, beaten severely, tortured, etc, they should all be covered in scars and burns.  At least _Arrow_ makes a point of acknowledging that GA and BC have lots of them.


Half the time they remember Bruce's, but yeah, pretty much everybody else kind of lacked any "mileage." And you could have some fun with it; maybe Dick and Tim have the same amount of scars thanks to Dick being better at dodging and Tim being relatively inexperienced in comparison, or Jason has some weird ones caused by the Lazarus Pit.

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## Lorendiac

> Not to mention the various ways at first artists depicted her without scars on her form yet it was said she had some. Then finally we saw them in Batman & the Outsiders. Though I think for Damion Scott portion I think he tweaked her appearance also to convey the fact that it had been a year since Cass's first encounter with Shiva and the promise of a death duel. She does slightly look older from #9 to #25.


In one of my fanfics, I went with the idea that being dunked in a Lazarus Pit (in the final issues of her old solo series) removed all previous scar tissue. (I am aware of that later BATO story you mention in which one writer took a contrary position on that subject when she was walking around naked in one scene in front of Grace Choi and Anissa Pierce -- but I don't think I knew about that when I was writing that fanfic, and I'm not losing too much sleep over it.) 

Other characters who have the Lazarus Pit excuse for not being covered with scars (at least in the Pre-Flashpoint continuity) would include Batman, Jason Todd, and Black Canary II. Not to mention various other times when Batman (for instance) has "died" and then been "resurrected" in story arcs in other titles.

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## John Venus

For the Bat Clan as a whole, scars only appear when they are plot relevant. Nightwing was shown having scars in Peter Tomasis's 'Nightwing' run and back to being smooth as a dolphin in Tony Daniel's 'Batman' run.

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## Blight

> For the Bat Clan as a whole, scars only appear when they are plot relevant. Nightwing was shown having scars in Peter Tomasis's 'Nightwing' run and back to being smooth as a dolphin in Tony Daniel's 'Batman' run.


Too true. Or Bruce as well being all scarred up during Hush.




> Cassandra Cain had a lot of scars and the such when she was still a hero.
> 
> Than New 52 happened and where's my Cass?! Where's Black Bat?!



Isn't that the question that we have to keep asking ourselves? Or should we keep asking DC Panels? Then again, do you want Cassandra reimagined in a way that'll be how they've reintroduced Stephanie? Or one were they are barely the character fans liked in New 52 version of Tim Drake?

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## Zainu

Not even sure I want her introduced at all. I mean, I really loved her previous relationship with Babs, but with young Babsgirl...not sure how that's going to work. Plus, Gail is hell bent on making Cass-clones with her White Canaries and Strixes(okay, assassin background I could dig, but mute and had a bad assassin childhood that left her socially awkward too? ...such a shameless rip-off that I can't even believe it). Yeah, pre-Infinite Crisis, Barbara really played a big role in guiding Cassandra's life. Removing Oracle from Cass's narrative changes things.

Buuut I can see how her story would work without Babs....Bruce finds her for one reason or another. She proves herself to him and his cause in the heat of battle. He sees the similarities between the two of them and adopts her so that he can bring her down a better direction than where's she's going. This would be a great place to show Batman actively mentoring a girl/daughter. Alfred is pleased to finally be able to raise a young lady(though scandalized when she turns out to be in dire need of etiquette 101 training. Being formerly homeless and all). Tim analyzes and figures out how to work around her brand of dyslexia and helps Cass grasp the alphabet and then words. In the end, they realize that while she can talk, if brought to it, she's more comfortable with the use of American Sign Language(learns it faster too). I'd love to see partnerships between her and Tim, and comparisons between their different styles of detective work/crime fighting.

Maybe introduce her to the Teen Titans, so that Cass can get to know other heroes around her age. She comes out and kicks ass at night under Night Angel, since I abhor her Black Bat code-name and costume. Keep Brenda as a friend and let Cass discover what its like to have a civilian life. Cass and Jason might be able to share some things in common over their League of Assasins training/connections. Dick might drop by Gotham once every event and act as a big brother figure too. Not going to even comment about nuBabs, since I'd use sarcasm.

Her costume can look like this:
art.kenneth_rocafort.batgirl.jpg
It was designed by Kenneth Rocafort and intended for Cass. I love both this and her original costume. Both are great.

As for background, I'd make her mother Carolyn Wu and Richard Dragon, just to make it more interesting, since we've already seen how Shiva and Cain parentage played out. I always thought that Cain would always see her as his little girl/legacy, regardless of whether she was his blood or not. But her parentage can be kept at Shiva and Cain, because it adds the whole Nature AND Nurture being aligned against Cassandra, and how she triumphed in spite of it.
She would still be trained from the moment she could form a fist, and brought to kill at a more or less tender age(10 or 11, instead of 7). Except, this time, she'd kill a Chicago mob boss, and wander America for five or so years before arriving in Gotham(making her 15 or 16).

But, who am I kidding? Even if Cassandra's brought back, there is no way that she's going to get the page time and needed development that she had before.  :Frown:  I don't trust any of the current Bat writers to get her right either...not even Snyder.

----------


## Jcogginsa

I thought Gail had to create Cass clones because she couldn't use the original cass?

----------


## John Venus

> I thought Gail had to create Cass clones because she couldn't use the original cass?


Highly possible.  Snyder created Harper Row for the same reason.

----------


## Blight

> I thought Gail had to create Cass clones because she couldn't use the original cass?


I don't think White Canary was ever meant to be a Cass clone given she was a villain in the Brightest Day arc of BoP she was introduced. Though she did get kind of New 52ed along with Cass. But Gail was trying to get Cass on the book at that time, but in a different way. Heck I think there was a solicitation teasing Cass wasn't there? That some teen hero who hasn't ever joined the team finally does to help them for their latest mission? It was that issue were Barbara makes the world think "Oracle" is dead.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> It is a great moment with the character. Do you find it hard for a specific moment? I do. I mean there's so many great moments she had in her ongoing and even in Red Robin.


not really
to me this is the defining moment of the character
with very little action and pretty much minimun dialog, this scene shows who she is and why she does what she does

It is a great moment

----------


## Zainu

> I thought Gail had to create Cass clones because she couldn't use the original cass?


I can understand that, but if Gail was not allowed to use the original character, then it would have been better to create a completely different character with different background, personality and mannerisms(a la Harper Row), instead of just copying and pasting bits and pieces from the original. By copying off of Cass so much, Strix makes Cass's existence and experience less unique.

----------


## beetlebum

Cass and Steph art.

Source.

----------


## ABH

Heh, that's really cute.

----------


## Blight

Okay the Future's End cover to Batgirl hints at Four Batgirls. Two of whom look an awful like two previous Pre-New 52 Batgirls:

 


Thoughts?

----------


## Vworp Vworp

> Thoughts?


It could be Steph (or Bette), Cass and Nell.  Or it could be three random women.


...or Charise, Alysia and McKenna.

----------


## beetlebum

> Heh, that's really cute.


It is!




> Okay the Future's End cover to Batgirl hints at Four Batgirls. Two of whom look an awful like two previous Pre-New 52 Batgirls:
> 
> Thoughts?


Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass

However, I'm not going to get my hopes up too high though.  :Frown: 

I wonder who the one with the Luche Libre mask is. She sort of looks like Bane and she has ... ample assets ... (to put it politely).

----------


## Blight

Pantha? I mean that's who I thought the moment I saw that costume and luche libre style mask.

----------


## John Venus

Given DC's pattern when it comes to Cass I am not holding my breath. I would be shocked but pleasantly surprised if they did use Cass though at the same time dread that they might do something spiteful with her before chucking her off into limbo again.   

Though Bane/Batgirl is kind of interesting.  My reaction is pretty much the same as *beetlebum's* Kate Bishop icon with her lowering the sunglasses.  Like what is this, really?

----------


## Punisher007

> I can understand that, but if Gail was not allowed to use the original character, then it would have been better to create a completely different character with different background, personality and mannerisms(a la Harper Row), instead of just copying and pasting bits and pieces from the original. By copying off of Cass so much, Strix makes Cass's existence and experience less unique.


Strix isn't really all that much like Cass beyond the whole "mute badass" thing.  And Cass eventually started talking anyway.  Their background/origins, personalities, and beliefs are quite different.

----------


## CagedLeo730

> It is!
> 
> 
> 
> Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass Please let one of them be Cass
> 
> However, I'm not going to get my hopes up too high though. 
> 
> I wonder who the one with the Luche Libre mask is. She sort of looks like Bane and she has ... ample assets ... (to put it politely).


It's Batgirl in the Bane mask. That's her new identity of Bete Noire aka Black Beast

----------


## beetlebum

> It's Batgirl in the Bane mask. That's her new identity of Bete Noire aka Black Beast


I don't know why I didn't realize that before (slightly embarrassed). Thanks.

----------


## Zainu

The blonde one is for sure to be Steph, but one with the short hair is more likely to be Harper than Cass  :Frown:

----------


## Arnoldoaad

I think they are Alysia at the front, the corrupt cop from the knightfall arc and the blond might be anybody

hopefully not Steph
I like Steph way to much.

----------


## Sardorim

Doesn't look like anyone we know and that "Blonde" looks like she has White Hair.




> Too true. Or Bruce as well being all scarred up during Hush.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that the question that we have to keep asking ourselves? Or should we keep asking DC Panels? Then again, do you want Cassandra reimagined in a way that'll be how they've reintroduced Stephanie? Or one were they are barely the character fans liked in New 52 version of Tim Drake?


Rather she be re-imaged like Steph, Tim's new 52 origin and introduction was plain bad and followed by Retcons.

I also wish all the Cass Clones and Wannabes are killed off or retconned out to oblivion. They're an insult to Cass  fans and poor substitutes to the real and heroic deal.

----------


## Blight

Cass and Stephanie given a "Fire Emblem" makeover:



http://kiarou.deviantart.com/art/"]  Fire-Emblem-Cassandra-Cain-and-Stephanie-Brown-453056016]Fire Emblem: Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brownby Kiarou



http://www.deviantart.com/#/art/BatgirlOrderBladeCvr-copy-453938244?hf=1"]BatgirlOrderBladeCvr-copyby DeanZachary

----------


## oasis1313

> Okay the Future's End cover to Batgirl hints at Four Batgirls. Two of whom look an awful like two previous Pre-New 52 Batgirls:
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


Bat-SheHulk

----------


## beetlebum

Saw this on Tumblr today.

I thought it was perfect.

As much as I'm happy that my faves (Helena Bertinelli and Stephanie Brown) are back, the DC universe feels incomplete without Cass in it.

----------


## beetlebum

Pretty sweet piece of fan art.



Colours07

----------


## Blight

That is a really amazing dress that Colours designed for Cass.

----------


## ReverseReverseFlash

> Bat-SheHulk


I think those ladies are Knightfall's henchwomen. I don't even remember their names.

----------


## Enigmatic Undead



----------


## scary harpy

> Pretty sweet piece of fan art.
> 
> 
> 
> Colours07



Amazing!

Cass could probably fight crime in it also.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## heyevaxx

Love these panels of Cass kicking butt and completely intimidating a bunch of thugs. They're from Batman Gotham City Secret Files & Origins 2000-04 where Cass and Catwoman team up. Here's the source with the high res non-animated source:
http://m6p2s5gziax8.tumblr.com/post/...-before-bottle

----------


## ceroxide

so what do you guys thing of Cassandra making her new52 debut as the new Nightwing?

----------


## Punisher007

> Bat-SheHulk


The one at the bottom kind of looks like Cass, and the one on the left looks a lot like Stephanie.

----------


## scary harpy

> so what do you guys thing of Cassandra making her new52 debut as the new Nightwing?


*Lady Nightwing* would be better.

Within the next decade, I suspect Grayson will return to costumed vigilantism.

----------


## oasis1313

Only Dick Grayson should be Nightwing.  I'd like to see Cass or Steph as Batgirl.  Barbara ain't a "girl" anymore.

----------


## Punisher007

Batwoman is already taken.

----------


## oasis1313

> Batwoman is already taken.


"She-Bat"?

----------


## heyevaxx

In The Name Of Cassandra Cain started up Cassandra Cain Appreciation Month in honor of the 15th year anniversary since her first comic book appearance in Batman #567.

Tumblr posts tagged as Cassandra Cain have surged with lots of fan art, comments, essays and fanfics.

E.g. there's a nice digital set of panels of Cass's first appearance from Batman #567.

And Rena, who is something of a Cassandra Cain essayist/researcher/#1fan, is writing interesting posts all month about Cass; she just wrote a great part 2 about re-introducing Cass into the DCU.
Part1: If Cass was given a fresh reintroduction in the New 52 would you like her to go back to not speaking? ...
Part2: do you have a headcanon for how cass could be introduced to the new 52?

----------


## godisawesome

> Part1: If Cass was given a fresh reintroduction in the New 52 would you like her to go back to not speaking? ...
> Part2: do you have a headcanon for how cass could be introduced to the new 52?


Y'know, I want to answer those questions...

*Part One:* I think Cassandra not speaking, or at least being as laconic as she was during her hayday, is an integral feature and challenge of the character. The artist needs to be someone who can be suggestive and emotive to help tell the story, and seeing Cassandra quietly access a scene and use small one-word sentences to express her opinions makes her an excellent character, and a great foil for the more talkative members of the family. Even _Batman_ seems like a windbag next to her. Someone like Tim or Jason making their snarky comments allows for some nice color commentary and dialogue tricks.

*Part Two:*  I've got an idea: introduce Cassandra through one of the Robins' backstories, preferably Tim, Damain, or Jason. For Tim, set up an "act II" for Tim's origin (KEEP LOBDELL THE HELL AWAY!) that echoes his first miniseries from the 1990s, but replace Lady Shiva with Cassandra as his trainer. For Jason, have him have freed her from her father's tutelage shortly after his resurrection from the whole One Who Is All prophecy. For Damian, she's the weird older sister figure he remembers who he feels so we hat threatened by.

In all cases, she's being tracked by Cain and comes to Gotham for aid. After getting her Robin's support and witnessing Batman in action, she expresses a drive to follow his legacy like in her first series. She maintains contact with at least one plugged in member at all times and fights as the Black Bat, and we see her reactions to the idea of a civilian life and single minded focus on becoming one of Batman's successor's.

----------


## Sardorim

Keep Cass away from Damian, that Brat will never live down for the smack he said to Cass, and Mr. Todd. Bad enough we have so much random shipping between Todd/Cass when they rarely if ever interacted only because some artists, that don't read the comics, think that they looked cute together and they have "dark pasts".

The only thing dark about Todd's past is that he got killed by a mad man and came back. His life has nothing compared to how messed up Cass's was before she became part of the Bat Crew.

----------


## Punisher007

I actually think that the new _Grayson_ book would be a pretty good place to reintroduce Cass.  Given who her parents are (or at least were pre-reboot) an espionage book would be acceptable for her debut.  Oh and as for Jason, yeah he had it so peachy.  What with his criminal father, absentee mother (who end ups betraying him to the Joker), living on the street for years, and oh yeah, being horrifically tortured and murdered by the freaking Joker.  Yeah, totally no dark past there, please don't make me laugh.

----------


## Sardorim

> I actually think that the new _Grayson_ book would be a pretty good place to reintroduce Cass.  Given who her parents are (or at least were pre-reboot) an espionage book would be acceptable for her debut.  Oh and as for Jason, yeah he had it so peachy.  What with his criminal father, absentee mother (who end ups betraying him to the Joker), living on the street for years, and oh yeah, being horrifically tortured and murdered by the freaking Joker.  Yeah, totally no dark past there, please don't make me laugh.


Must Dick steal Cass from Bruce, Steph and Tim even though he treated her like trash for a very long time before the reboot?

----------


## catbatfan

I definitely think there is a role for Cassandra Cain in the New 52. She is Bruce Wayne's daughter after all. My hope is that she'll be introduced towards the end of Batman Eternal and hopefully spin off into a co-headlining book with Stephanie. Maybe even launch a Batman Family ongoing and give her a role in it.

----------


## ceroxide

> Part2: do you have a headcanon for how cass could be introduced to the new 52?


I have one way that of course only I like. It follows the recent events of Dick becoming an agent of Spyral. 
One of his missions takes him to Hong Kong where he follows a thread of assassinations that all link back to David Cain. Dick meets with Sandra Wu-San who eventually tells Dick the truth and tells him the reason she can't run away is because 17 years ago they had a daughter, whom David took to the League of Assassins amongst many other places to train the perfect killer. Once a year she comes back to the house and they spend a lot of time together, during this time she is mostly learning everything she missed from school and her mother babies her, so she hasn't grown completely desensitized. 

Sandra begs Dick to save her from David and as the arc runs the eventual culmination occurs as Dick successfully brings down Cain's empire. Gaining a mortal enemy all the while cementing himself as a badass. However as the empire burns Sandra tries to escape with her daughter, Cassandra, but is caught by a badly wounded David, claiming that it's all Sandra's fault and he'll see her dead before he himself bites the dust, a fight breaks out, as Cassandra makes a final lunge to kill David he uses Sandra as a shield making Cassandra kill her own mother in her blind rage. When Dick arrives he finds Cassandra hugging and crying over her now dead mother, David is nowhere to be seen. She tells Dick that she just lost everything and worst of all she herself took the one person who ever loved her from herself. Dick tells her that there's a man that can still help her and keep her safe. The arc ends as we see Dick dropping off Cassandra at wayne Manor.

this way I believe not only do we establish a cool new villain for the Grayson series that can spin multiple villains as different business partners of David Cain now see Spyral as a threat to their business but also tells us the past and introduces to Gotham Cassandra Cain. Her young age could make her perfect to be furthered featured in Gotham High where she meets Stephanie Brown (Spoiler) and although the series doesn't focus on her it can help further develop her character until she eventually becomes the Black Bat... because to be honest I REALLY like Barbara as Batgirl

----------


## Badou

Well Dick is staying at the St. Hadrian's Finishing School for Girls in Grayson. So I guess they could introduce Cass as a student there as one possible way to reintroduce her.

----------


## catbatfan

Very sad day to be a Cass fan. I wish whoever made up that BoP rumour hadn't. :-(

----------


## ABH

> Very sad day to be a Cass fan. I wish whoever made up that BoP rumour hadn't. :-(


Doyle and Co. have been creating some Bat-miracles, lately, so don't lose hope that maybe Cass will return.

----------


## catbatfan

I'm not sure what Doyle has done, at least in terms of pleasing me. Isn't Mike Marts the (former) editor responsible for bringing back Stephanie Brown?

----------


## Blight

> Doyle and Co. have been creating some Bat-miracles, lately, so don't lose hope that maybe Cass will return.


Now I might be thinking about a Stephanie Brown fan, but I seem to recall a Cassandra Cain fan asking Dan Didio if she'd ever return and he said wait until summer. I'm guessing it had to be Steph but a part of me could sworn it was a fan of Cass.

Also this rumor had me dangling for hope. Damn you hope! I want to see the idea happen. A Birds of Prey team of Cass, Stephanie, and Harper with an elder Bat (be it Kathy or Kate) I'd throw money at every variant. Still, a lighter hearted Batgirl with Babs? I'm all for that. What the book should have been to begin with.

----------


## catbatfan

How do you think we could mobilize to let DC know we want Cass back? I tweet at them and have contacted them through their webpage. Short of showing up at a con dressed in Cassandra Cain cosplay drag, I don't know what else will get their attention.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> How do you think we could mobilize to let DC know we want Cass back? I tweet at them and have contacted them through their webpage. Short of showing up at a con dressed in Cassandra Cain cosplay drag, I don't know what else will get their attention.


The problem is two fold.

First, DC knows the fans want Cass back. 

Second, DC doesn't want her back. The inmates are running the asylum at DC, and they're not fans of Cass (or hell, a good deal of modern canon after 1986). So no matter what is done, they'll just keep thumbing their nose at Cass fans. Until this regime is out, we're unlikely to see Cass and that frankly, might be the best option.

----------


## Punisher007

There's a new Bat-editor who's making some pretty big changes and they've already brought back Stephanie, so I'm not as pessimistic as others.  I think that it's now more a question of "when" not "if."

----------


## gwangung

> The problem is two fold.
> 
> First, DC knows the fans want Cass back. 
> 
> Second, DC doesn't want her back. The inmates are running the asylum at DC, and they're not fans of Cass (or hell, a good deal of modern canon after 1986). So no matter what is done, they'll just keep thumbing their nose at Cass fans. Until this regime is out, we're unlikely to see Cass and that frankly, might be the best option.


No, the problem is

1) There are fans that want Cass back.

2) DC thinks THAT THIS IS NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP A BOOK AFLOAT. And DC is probably right. They need more than reflex buyers with Cass' character slapped on the cover. They need a hook to bring not only loyal buyers but enough casual fans in to convert to loyal fans.

3) This hook needs to be unique, and not duplicative of other books.

It's a shame that she can't be the next Robin. There's a few hooks there...Batman teaching a daughter, instead of a son. Teaching her to be a human instead of a fighter. Taking on someone that's arguably both more broken, yet stronger than him.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> No, the problem is
> 
> 1) There are fans that want Cass back.
> 
> 2) DC thinks THAT THIS IS NOT ENOUGH TO KEEP A BOOK AFLOAT. And DC is probably right. They need more than reflex buyers with Cass' character slapped on the cover. They need a hook to bring not only loyal buyers but enough casual fans in to convert to loyal fans.
> 
> 3) This hook needs to be unique, and not duplicative of other books.
> 
> It's a shame that she can't be the next Robin. There's a few hooks there...Batman teaching a daughter, instead of a son. Teaching her to be a human instead of a fighter. Taking on someone that's arguably both more broken, yet stronger than him.


1) How is this a problem?  :Wink: 

2) DC doesn't care. They sabotaged Cass for the sake of Babs and don't seem to wanna stop. Cass' book outsold Hawkman, Catwoman and Firestorm's when it was cancelled. All three books have since gotten second and/or third chances, while Cass got shafted with a mini series written by the guy who screwed her up to begin with.

----------


## catbatfan

> There's a new Bat-editor who's making some pretty big changes and they've already brought back Stephanie, so I'm not as pessimistic as others.  I think that it's now more a question of "when" not "if."


The new Bat-editor is not responsible for bringing back Stephanie. So far, Mark Doyle has not done anything noteworthy, and there's no reason to believe he has any plans for Cass. I love Stephanie as much as the next person, but she is less-hated at DC than Cass. Sure, Steph was killed off when DiDio took over, but he allowed her to return in 2008, allowed her to become Batgirl in 2009 and carry her own series, and now has allowed her to return in the New 52. In that same time period, Cass' book was cancelled, she was turned evil, she got a mini-series from one of the worst writers to ever take on the character, she was reduced to making occasional guest appearances, then she was shipped out of Gotham and now she's no longer part of continuity. It'll be a struggle to get her back considering it was a struggle to make a tiny bit of leeway from 2006-11.

----------


## Malachi

With some characters there certainly seems to be going on more behind the scenes then we get told. Cass is one of them. One or several persons of power in DC doesn't like her, or the very least doesn't see any potential in her. She has been pitched and asked for by some of the biggest guns at DC(Snyder for instance wanted her in his Batman, at least to round out the family) yet they all got a no.

DC has a character that has one of the longest running solo's of a female character in their history. She's tied to Batman. She's half asian origin so she ticks that box that DC talks so much about yet do so little.
On paper there is no real reason why Cass hasn't been used yet. The reason that she would upset Barbara and her comic is ludicrous. Babs is doing fine and certainly isn't competing with the role of being Bruce's daughter. That has never been her role in the family. No whatever excuse that Cass would upset their plans for Babs are over since a long time ago. Helena Wayne is Earth 2, so she's not a problem.

Until whatever persons at DC that's vetoing Cass stops then we will not see her, however good the reasons might be. It lloks grim on that front since the 3 people most involved in "sabotage" against her character are in more power at DC then ever. Dan Didio, Eddie Berengenza and Peter Tomasi(spelling might be incorrect =)

----------


## catbatfan

What did Berganza and Tomasi do to Cass?

----------


## Punisher007

> The new Bat-editor is not responsible for bringing back Stephanie. So far, Mark Doyle has not done anything noteworthy, and there's no reason to believe he has any plans for Cass. I love Stephanie as much as the next person, but she is less-hated at DC than Cass. Sure, Steph was killed off when DiDio took over, but he allowed her to return in 2008, allowed her to become Batgirl in 2009 and carry her own series, and now has allowed her to return in the New 52. In that same time period, Cass' book was cancelled, she was turned evil, she got a mini-series from one of the worst writers to ever take on the character, she was reduced to making occasional guest appearances, then she was shipped out of Gotham and now she's no longer part of continuity. It'll be a struggle to get her back considering it was a struggle to make a tiny bit of leeway from 2006-11.


First of all, I don't agree at all that he hasn't done anything noteworthy.  The fat that people are talking about theses changes completely undermines that argument.  Secondly, there most definitely IS reason to think that Cass will come back eventually.  Steph is back, Helena B is back, Wally West (whether you LIKE the new take on him or not is another matter entirely) is back, freaking Julia Pennyworth, who hasn't been seen or heard from in decades, its back, etc.  I also don't agree with you that Cass is more hated than Steph, there's no evidence of that.  So frankly, there's A LOT more evidence that she WILL be back.  I haven't liked the way DC has treated her over the last five years or so, but there's being pessimistic for a good reason and then there's ignoring all of the evidence just so you can complain.  You're doing the latter.

----------


## catbatfan

> I also don't agree with you that Cass is more hated than Steph, there's no evidence of that.


I just laid out all the evidence.

----------


## Blight

> What did Berganza and Tomasi do to Cass?


Tomasi was the editor of Robin during the infamous Robin OYL arc. Berganza I guess maybe Titans East in the Teen Titans book? 
Though it is all theories and not straight-up facts. I do kind of believe that too. Someone honestly doesn't like the character given all the various changes that have gone through and the fact Cassandra's book wasn't canceled due to low sales, but to pave the way for Devin Grayson's Batwoman.

----------


## catbatfan

Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.

Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth. 

FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.

If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.

----------


## Malachi

> Tomasi was the editor of Robin during the infamous Robin OYL arc. Berganza I guess maybe Titans East in the Teen Titans book? 
> Though it is all theories and not straight-up facts. I do kind of believe that too. Someone honestly doesn't like the character given all the various changes that have gone through and the fact Cassandra's book wasn't canceled due to low sales, but to pave the way for Devin Grayson's Batwoman.


Berganza and Tomasi where the editors of Robin OYL. They switched right before it started i believe(otherwise it was after a few issues into OYL). So one of them developed the plan of Cass and the other was in charge of actual run. There is at least one old interview lying around on the internet about this. It's from before OYL, when they thought it would be a smash hit ^^
It's so easy to believe that someone is acting unprofessional about Cass. Sadly DC isn't showing us a company where that would be impossible. I really wish they would get their stuff together and publish comics that the fans want and not what they want to sell. Some characters are just relatively sure bets for them. Cass in a teambook is one of those, perhaps even a solo.

----------


## Blight

> Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.
> 
> Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth. 
> 
> FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.
> 
> If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.




Speaking of Batman & the Outsiders, Tomasi also conveniently forgot Cass during his run too. I think it's safe to say he really isn't found of the character. Honestly, I don't know what to think of the "pre-52" rumor. It's a rumor and a painful one at that given I'm just not a fan of the New 52. Sign me up for anything but the grit/pointless/rebooted characters/grim nature that has clouded these books since the beginning. I rather just hope they just bring in her Black Bat persona and for the love of all that's holy don't introduce her as a villain.

----------


## Malachi

> Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan). But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her. I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.
> 
> Tomasi also conveniently excluded Cassandra when he focused on the Bat family in the Nightwing book. It was Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Alfred with the exclusion of Batgirl. That left a bad taste in my mouth. 
> 
> FWIW, I really enjoyed Cass' appearances in Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders. The way she was treated by DC in her later years, Cass definitely became an outsider.
> 
> If the rumours about pre-52 characters appearing in next spring's 2-month special event are true, I hope we see Cass. Maybe the Batgirl versions of Cass, Steph, Barbara and Bette Kane will team up.


Chuck was pitched Cass for his run. He didn't even remember that he had written some comics for her ongoing. He worked on so many Batman-family comics during those years that it's not hard to imagine he didn't invest much of himself in some fill-ins. Still the man is a professional and didn't write anything weirdly OOC for her.

DC more than any other publisher likes to turn their heroes into villains. It's an old tradition that never has worked for them. A bit masochist of them to keep trying. The problem is that so few heroes can be believable turned into a villain. Even if it would be accomplished it would take time, many comics and subtle writing. DC doesn't seem to put much with weight into any of those criteria. So it ends up more of a shock-value thing. Witch prompts them to fix it in an equal fast way. Leaving everything feeling even more hollow. Captain Atom, Don Hall, Mary Marvel, Cassandra Cain. All of them got hurt because of this with even more damage being done to their value in the long run(because now they where in a spot that DC didn't knew what to do with them). It's really shooting yourself in the foot and then get surprised when the doctor say that you can't attend that important match coming up because of your foot.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I'm just not a fan of the New 52. Sign me up for anything but the grit/pointless/rebooted characters/grim nature that has clouded these books since the beginning. .


It's amazing to me how much the current regime seems to loath the 90s, yet at the same time is taking it's worse elements and using them to extremes (no pun intended) that the 90s never did.

----------


## catbatfan

> It's amazing to me how much the current regime seems to loath the 90s, yet at the same time is taking it's worse elements and using them to extremes (no pun intended) that the 90s never did.


They love everything about the 90s except for the characters.

----------


## Lorendiac

> Yeah, the OYL thing was a HUGE mistake. Turning a popular hero into a villain is never a good move (unless it's Hal Jordan).


You were off to a good start . . . and then you had to shoot yourself in the foot by saying "unless it's Hal Jordan." Why make a special exception for him when you're laying down a general principle?  :Confused: 

I remember buying "Emerald Twilight" as it was first coming out . . . and it sure didn't strike me as a good move to turn Hal into a violent lunatic. (I also bought the Zero Hour mini, which used Hal/Parallax as a major villain, and that story arc didn't impress me at all, so there was no reason to change my mind about the wisdom of "Emerald Twilight.") 

Although I remember feeling there was serious _wasted potential_ in "Emerald Twilight," if only DC had handled Hal's rebellion a little differently. I thought there was a great deal to be said for the concept of "Hal Jordan, *because* he's a true hero, one who has grown older and wiser over the years, has finally made a very *sensible* decision -- he refuses to tolerate any more of the secretive and clueless backseat driving from the little blue hypocrites who like to call themselves the Guardians of the Universe!" 

Unfortunately, that wasn't even remotely the way it was written. 




> But Geoff Johns was quick to rectify the evil Cass thing (albeit in the stupidest way possible---she was INJECTED with evil by Deathstroke!). Whoever gave the greenlight to Adam Beechen's Batgirl mini is also responsible. Cass deserved a well-written mini by someone who cared about her.


I'm with you there -- I remember when that mini was coming out. I kept wanting to buy issues of it in my visits to the local shop -- but I just couldn't bring myself to "send the wrong message" to DC by "rewarding them for bad behavior." If almost any comics writer in the industry *except* Adam Beechen had been scripting that mini, I at least would have bought the first issue and given it a fair chance to impress me, and if it did, I would have bought the second, and so forth. But I just could *not* bring myself to send a message to DC along the lines of "having Beechen write Cass again is a good idea that will make Cass's longtime fans happy enough to spend their money on it!" 




> I was happy that she was legally adopted by Bruce, but all that potential was squandered when Bruce "died" a month later.


Since I wasn't buying the mini at the time, I only heard about the adoption via discussions on DC's Batgirl board (this was back when DC still hosted discussion boards). I was ambivalent about it. 

Later, I saw another fan on that board offer an interesting theory about the reasoning behind that token gesture. His theory went this way: "Bruce formally adopted Dick a long time ago, and he's since adopted Tim Drake. Now that Cassandra is officially being added to the family, she is legally Tim's *sister.* From now on: If the two of them ever got romantically involved, they'd be breaking the local incest laws if they had sex, and they could *not* receive a valid marriage license even if they wanted to do things strictly by the book before sleeping together." 

In other words, he felt the entire point of "Bruce is adopting Cassandra" was simply to *derail* any hope of a Tim/Cass romance _ever occurring_ in subsequent continuity! Maybe Dan DiDio and other guys at DC _didn't care_ what happened to Cass after that, as long as she was *not* eligible for the role of "Tim's next girlfriend"?  

Did that fan have a point about the real thinking behind Cassandra's adoption into the Wayne family? _I have no idea._ But it's a fascinating theory!

----------


## catbatfan

> I'm with you there -- I remember when that mini was coming out. I kept wanting to buy issues of it in my visits to the local shop -- but I just couldn't bring myself to "send the wrong message" to DC by "rewarding them for bad behavior." If almost any comics writer in the industry *except* Adam Beechen had been scripting that mini, I at least would have bought the first issue and given it a fair chance to impress me, and if it did, I would have bought the second, and so forth. But I just could *not* bring myself to send a message to DC along the lines of "having Beechen write Cass again is a good idea that will make Cass's longtime fans happy enough to spend their money on it!"


To some extent, you played into DC's hands because then they could point to low sales as a reason not to use Cass anymore.

----------


## Lorendiac

> To some extent, you played into DC's hands because then they could point to low sales as a reason not to use Cass anymore.


Which was the main reason I was sorely *tempted* -- every month for six months! -- to buy the mini. But my conscience kept getting the better of me -- I didn't want DC to think "Cass as written by Beechen" was the sort of thing that I, and others, would keep buying indefinitely. 

And let's face it: If DC, despite the backlash from the "Robin OYL" issues about "Cass has gone psycho," still went ahead and let Beechen write her again, didn't that prove that *nothing* I could possibly do (such as buying her mini) would persuade them to let Cass be written in new solo adventures by a writer who knew and cared about her original characterization? 

Frankly, even before "New 52" kicked in, I was thinking (and saying online): "I think the best thing we can hope for in the next few years is that DC's current policy-makers will basically *forget* about Cassandra Cain. At some time in the _distant future,_ perhaps there will be a *new* editor who's willing to let her be well-written by a scripter who actually has a clue about what originally made the character appealing."

----------


## catbatfan

This regime wants to erase Cassandra from our collective memory. She needs to be back NOW before she ends up like Linda Danvers or Connor Hawke or Kate Spencer. The longer they go without giving us Cass, the smaller her fanbase gets until finally there is only a teensy, tiny minority of rabid Cass fans still asking about her. We need her back under this regime, unfortunately, before she is made redundant and irrelevant.

----------


## ceroxide

> She needs to be back NOW before she ends up like *Linda Danvers or Connor Hawke or Kate Spencer*.


Who are they?

----------


## catbatfan

> Who are they?


Exactly my point.

Linda Danvers is the Peter David-created Supergirl of the 90s (a MUCH better character than Kara Zor-El).
Connor Hawke is the Chuck Dixon-created Green Arrow of the 90s (Oliver Queen's son and also a much better character than Ollie).
Kate Spencer is the Marc Andreyko-created Manhunter of the 00s. 

Terrific characters, all gone. :-/

----------


## Lorendiac

> This regime wants to erase Cassandra from our collective memory. She needs to be back NOW before she ends up like Linda Danvers or Connor Hawke or Kate Spencer. The longer they go without giving us Cass, the smaller her fanbase gets until finally there is only a teensy, tiny minority of rabid Cass fans still asking about her. We need her back under this regime, unfortunately, before she is made redundant and irrelevant.


You make it sound as if there's a hard-and-fast deadline. In other words: "If Cassandra Cain goes a certain number of years without being featured in a new story, she will permanently slip away into Comic Book Limbo and *never* be heard from again. It's a Natural Law of the universe. The only way for her to avoid this dread fate is for her to be recycled, even in a bad way, in one of the comics coming out from DC in the near future." 

I simply don't see *why* you are making such a sweeping assumption. Lots of DC characters have been in "Comic Book Limbo" for _decades_ at a time, doing nothing in any new stories (or maybe just showing up in a supporting role once in a blue moon), and then have made comebacks when someone at DC pitched an idea for a revival, and managed to get some editors to green-light his concept. It didn't matter how long the character had been offstage; it only mattered how much support there was for that character, _right then and there._ 

For instance, I once checked and found that J'onn J'onnz, aka The Martian Manhunter, a _founding member_ of the Silver Age JLA, appeared in just *2* issues of the original "Justice League of America" title during the entire decade of the 1970s (and a few appearances in other comic books of the 70s, but never as a "steady back-up feature" or "regular member of a team's active roster" in any comic book title of that era). Obviously, the League could get along just fine without him. For all practical purposes, it seems he'd been written off as redundant and irrelevant by the guys who were writing and editing the JLA book (and lots of other DC comic books) _at that time._ But in the 1980s he made a successful comeback as a regular member of the Justice League roster, both in Detroit and then in the Giffen/DeMatteis era, and in the 1990s he had a solo monthly title for the first time in his career. His mostly skipping the 1970s didn't really hurt him any in the long run; there was no built-in "deadline" or "expiration date." 

On a similar note, when Roy Thomas was writing his "All-Star Squadron" book in the 1980s (along with the "Infinity Inc." title and the later "Young All-Stars" book), he ended up dusting off a bunch of heroes and villains who had basically been languishing in Comic Book Limbo ever since the Golden Age. Some of them had probably gone over *30 years* at a stretch without any new appearances, but they still looked pretty good when they were properly handled!  :Smile:

----------


## John Venus

If she can't survive on a solo book then put her on a team book. Putting her on the Outsiders was a good move, imo. 




> Who are they?





> Exactly my point.


There will always be the next Mark Waid, Kurt Kusiek and Roy Thomas to dredge up old forgotten characters.

----------


## godisawesome

Don't forget that Cass came back from limbo once before and her return was heartily welcomed, or that the current Batcreators have expressed an interest in doing it again. My personal prediction is that Cass will be the next to return after Steph, probably in the sequel to Eternal.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Exactly my point.
> 
> Linda Danvers is the Peter David-created Supergirl of the 90s (a MUCH better character than Kara Zor-El).
> Connor Hawke is the Chuck Dixon-created Green Arrow of the 90s (Oliver Queen's son and also a much better character than Ollie).
> Kate Spencer is the Marc Andreyko-created Manhunter of the 00s. 
> 
> Terrific characters, all gone. :-/


That's not true.

They brought Connor Hawk back in Earth 2 (Batman vs. Superman XXXVVVIII). 

They made him white, he was pretty much an extra and then they killed him.

But they didn't forget him!

----------


## Punisher007

Plus, Linda Danvers a better character than Kara Zor-El.  Yeah, really cannot agree with that one.

----------


## Lorendiac

> Plus, Linda Danvers a better character than Kara Zor-El.  Yeah, really cannot agree with that one.


Well, if we make it more specific -- for instance, "Linda Danvers _as written by Peter David_ is a MUCH better character than Kara Zor-El _as written by Jeph Loeb_" -- then I could go along with that!  :Smile:

----------


## Badou

> Exactly my point.
> 
> Linda Danvers is the Peter David-created Supergirl of the 90s (a MUCH better character than Kara Zor-El).
> Connor Hawke is the Chuck Dixon-created Green Arrow of the 90s (Oliver Queen's son and also a much better character than Ollie).
> Kate Spencer is the Marc Andreyko-created Manhunter of the 00s. 
> 
> Terrific characters, all gone. :-/


Connor Hawk is back, sort of. They made the archer from Earth-2 Connor. Although that wasn't the original plan. The new creative team decided to do that after Robinson left.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Connor Hawk is back, sort of. They made the archer from Earth-2 Connor. Although that wasn't the original plan. The new creative team decided to do that after Robinson left.


He was...*cough*

----------


## Malachi

> You make it sound as if there's a hard-and-fast deadline. In other words: "If Cassandra Cain goes a certain number of years without being featured in a new story, she will permanently slip away into Comic Book Limbo and *never* be heard from again. It's a Natural Law of the universe. The only way for her to avoid this dread fate is for her to be recycled, even in a bad way, in one of the comics coming out from DC in the near future." 
> 
> I simply don't see *why* you are making such a sweeping assumption. Lots of DC characters have been in "Comic Book Limbo" for _decades_ at a time, doing nothing in any new stories (or maybe just showing up in a supporting role once in a blue moon), and then have made comebacks when someone at DC pitched an idea for a revival, and managed to get some editors to green-light his concept. It didn't matter how long the character had been offstage; it only mattered how much support there was for that character, _right then and there._ 
> 
> For instance, I once checked and found that J'onn J'onnz, aka The Martian Manhunter, a _founding member_ of the Silver Age JLA, appeared in just *2* issues of the original "Justice League of America" title during the entire decade of the 1970s (and a few appearances in other comic books of the 70s, but never as a "steady back-up feature" or "regular member of a team's active roster" in any comic book title of that era). Obviously, the League could get along just fine without him. For all practical purposes, it seems he'd been written off as redundant and irrelevant by the guys who were writing and editing the JLA book (and lots of other DC comic books) _at that time._ But in the 1980s he made a successful comeback as a regular member of the Justice League roster, both in Detroit and then in the Giffen/DeMatteis era, and in the 1990s he had a solo monthly title for the first time in his career. His mostly skipping the 1970s didn't really hurt him any in the long run; there was no built-in "deadline" or "expiration date." 
> 
> On a similar note, when Roy Thomas was writing his "All-Star Squadron" book in the 1980s (along with the "Infinity Inc." title and the later "Young All-Stars" book), he ended up dusting off a bunch of heroes and villains who had basically been languishing in Comic Book Limbo ever since the Golden Age. Some of them had probably gone over *30 years* at a stretch without any new appearances, but they still looked pretty good when they were properly handled!


Certainly there is a curve that decreases for every year not being used. Eventually it levels out or at least decreases so little that's it hardly noticeable. Still it's easier, much easier to bring back a character within a certain span of years. It doesn't mean that it's impossible later on. It's just wiser to do it before it gets harder. Always pending on a good story though.

The current regime isn't like it was back in the days of infinity inc. First of it's much more selective in what part of DC history that gets to come back. It's no coincidence that all of the mentioned characters(Connor, Linda, ect) isn't used. Why Donna, Wally and other characters have gotten the shaft. It's a company wide policy that's really doing more damage then good. Second, the market might not be able to sustain a series the way it could before. Infinity Inc came during a time when comics in general sold more.

I rather be a fan that gets good Cass stories in a near future where the name of the team is less relevant for sales then it risks being in a more distant future. Waiting for a Waid is a risky business, in no way a certainty.

----------


## catbatfan

> Connor Hawk is back, sort of. They made the archer from Earth-2 Connor. Although that wasn't the original plan. The new creative team decided to do that after Robinson left.


That's not Connor. Connor is tri-racial. The character appearing in Earth-2 calling himself Connor Hawke has been whitewashed.

----------


## catbatfan

> That's not true.
> 
> They brought Connor Hawk back in Earth 2 (Batman vs. Superman XXXVVVIII). 
> 
> They made him white, he was pretty much an extra and then they killed him.
> 
> But they didn't forget him!



Wow, they killed him off? I was going to start reading Earth-2 until I found out he had been whitewashed. Glad I didn't start.

----------


## catbatfan

> Don't forget that Cass came back from limbo once before and her return was heartily welcomed, or that the current Batcreators have expressed an interest in doing it again. My personal prediction is that Cass will be the next to return after Steph, probably in the sequel to Eternal.


What are you talking about? When did that happen?

----------


## oasis1313

> This regime wants to erase Cassandra from our collective memory. She needs to be back NOW before she ends up like Linda Danvers or Connor Hawke or Kate Spencer. The longer they go without giving us Cass, the smaller her fanbase gets until finally there is only a teensy, tiny minority of rabid Cass fans still asking about her. We need her back under this regime, unfortunately, before she is made redundant and irrelevant.


This sounds like the Cassandra Cain version of the Wingnuts.  It really sux when DC dumps on good characters.

----------


## godisawesome

> What are you talking about? When did that happen?


Her disappearance after Batman RIP and Steph's tenure as Batgirl, plus a pretty good chunk of her post "Titans East" appearances. DC seemed to pretty clearly dump and try and forget the character after her miniseries. And one of the main attractions of that last miniseries before Flashpoint was Cass's appearance.

----------


## Punisher007

Sorry, still not buying it.  They brought back Steph, and Wally, Helena B, and even freaking Julia Pennyworth who hasn't been used in god knows how long.  The overwhelming preponderance of evidence would seem to indicate that she WILL come back eventually.

----------


## heyevaxx

I think fans tend to think mostly with their hearts: characters and stories that affect readers, get them talking and make them want to buy more.

But I think what's missing from the "if and when Cass will return" discussion is the business dynamic.

From everything I've read, Cassandra Cain's downfall at DC was mostly from Dan DiDio being a big fan of the DC character set he grew up with in the 70s. So when One Year Later came along and Tim Drake needed an enemy, he canceled Batgirl that was selling ok (not great but well enough to continue) and directed Beechen flip Cass to evil, which he implemented very sloppily (her speaking ability, writing Navajo, her inability to easily beat Tim with a broken shoulder).

So fast forward to today. What's the big driver for DiDio to bring back Cass or to keep her in limbo?

Money.

In addition to being a comic guy, DiDio is a senior executive at a subsidiary that needs to increase revenue and profit. We all know comic sales are chronically going down so DiDio would be strongly motivated to bring back a character to boost sales. I bet DiDio's contract with Time Warner has quarterly/yearly sales and profit goals but sadly nothing about poor Cassie or other story/character specifics that excites readers.

Bringing Cass back will probably happen with the right internal sales pitch from a group editor/editor/writer that comes at the right time.

This happens every day in non-creative arts bureaucracies when a product manager approaches an executive after talking with some engineers about a cool new idea. It takes timing, persuasion and luck to get the idea green lighted. It also helps if the idea is a good one but that's not always the most important thing.

For Cass, I think we've got to wait for the stars to align and for someone to make the right pitch to DiDio and other execs to get her green lit. Whatever made DiDio and possibly others cancel her series, change her character and then bench her can be overcome by the right pitch that makes financial sense.

I just hope that when she returns Cass has the right combination of her great, old qualities blended with an acceptable set of new things to make her fresh and fit into the New 52.

PS - It's important to note that Cassandra's return *might* already be planned out and DC is timing it around staffing issues, the resolution of Batman Eternal, the office move to California, etc. These sort of things are closely guarded secrets and Dan & Co. could be chuckling at fans for getting so revved up about something that's planned.

----------


## catbatfan

> Her disappearance after Batman RIP and Steph's tenure as Batgirl, plus a pretty good chunk of her post "Titans East" appearances. DC seemed to pretty clearly dump and try and forget the character after her miniseries. And one of the main attractions of that last miniseries before Flashpoint was Cass's appearance.


I agree to some extent, but at least then she still existed within the DCU.

----------


## catbatfan

> Sorry, still not buying it.  They brought back Steph, and Wally, Helena B, and even freaking Julia Pennyworth who hasn't been used in god knows how long.  The overwhelming preponderance of evidence would seem to indicate that she WILL come back eventually.


I'm sure she will come back eventually too, but will anyone except her most diehard fans care? That's my worry.

----------


## catbatfan

> PS - It's important to note that Cassandra's return *might* already be planned out and DC is timing it around staffing issues, the resolution of Batman Eternal, the office move to California, etc. These sort of things are closely guarded secrets and Dan & Co. could be chuckling at fans for getting so revved up about something that's planned.


You give Dan too much credit. He has trolled Cass and Steph fans for years. My hope is that she'll at least return in next spring's big event that supposedly involves different versions of characters meeting up. I would love a Batgirl special where Cass, Steph, Barbara and even the original Bette Kane Bat-Girl team up. I hated the concept of the multiverse for so long, but it may be the key to seeing our faves again (Donna Troy is appearing in October's issue of The Multiversity, for example).

----------


## skyvolt2000

> I think fans tend to think mostly with their hearts: characters and stories that affect readers, get them talking and make them want to buy more.
> 
> But I think what's missing from the "if and when Cass will return" discussion is the business dynamic.
> 
> From everything I've read, Cassandra Cain's downfall at DC was mostly from Dan DiDio being a big fan of the DC character set he grew up with in the 70s. So when One Year Later came along and Tim Drake needed an enemy, he canceled Batgirl that was selling ok (not great but well enough to continue) and directed Beechen flip Cass to evil, which he implemented very sloppily (her speaking ability, writing Navajo, her inability to easily beat Tim with a broken shoulder).
> 
> So fast forward to today. What's the big driver for DiDio to bring back Cass or to keep her in limbo?
> 
> Money.


If it was about money we would not have seen Green Team, Vibe, Katana, Movement, Talon and a few others with books. Because NO ONE asked for them.

I've heard more folks ask for Cain, Brown, Static and others before any of those guys.

How hard is it to just have Cassandra SEEN-she doesn't have to be a hero or villain yet. She could Lucas Fox's girlfriend or best friend in Batwing or next door neighbor to Batwoman or Batgirl. Let fans know that she is around.

----------


## heyevaxx

> @skyvolt2000
> If it was about money we would not have seen Green Team, Vibe, Katana, Movement, Talon and a few others with books. Because NO ONE asked for them.


I meant to say that the big driver, maybe bigger than Dan's preference for 70's supers or a personal dislike of Cass, is money. Money for DC Comics almost certainly means bonus' and accelerators for him personally. The trick is getting the right pitch for Cass at the right time heard by the DC honchos. Plus, executives make mistakes all the time bringing the wrong products to market - cough, cough, New Coke - but they always *intended* the new product/idea/etc to make money.

While I'd love to have Cassandra seen and not yet a hero/villain (oh God, don't make her evil again!) I think it would blow much of the return value for Cass. My hunch is that if Cass does return, DC will leverage it for everything possible, with lots of lead up, teasing and a big intro story. Even if she doesn't get her own book, they'll milk it for everything it's worth. 

Featuring Steph on the last page of Batman 28's flash forward and then weaving her origin story as an Eternal sub-plot is the kind of return that I'd expect for Cassandra as a minimum. Hopefully she'll get even more but having her loitering in the background would kind of diffuse her return to stories with dialog.

But, this is just my yakking. The only thing that matters about Cassie's return is her actual return ... landing on a page in a story. My hopes, anxieties and prognostications really don't matter.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I meant to say that the big driver, maybe bigger than Dan's preference for 70's supers or a personal dislike of Cass, is money. Money for DC Comics almost certainly means bonus' and accelerators for him personally. The trick is getting the right pitch for Cass at the right time heard by the DC honchos. Plus, executives make mistakes all the time bringing the wrong products to market - cough, cough, New Coke - but they always *intended* the new product/idea/etc to make money..


I agree in theory, but in practice there's no indication that Time Warner much cares about it's comic properties beyond simply having them for movie rights.

There really is no right time, because Dan D just doesn't like Cass, and he wants to impose his limited vision on the DCU.

----------


## Lorendiac

> I agree in theory, but in practice there's no indication that Time Warner much cares about it's comic properties beyond simply having them for movie rights.
> 
> There really is no right time, because Dan D just doesn't like Cass, and he wants to impose his limited vision on the DCU.


Well, my original point was supposed to be that the best bet for diehard Cass fans is to wait until Dan DiDio's personal bias is _no longer_ an important factor -- because he's moved over to a different job and no longer gets to make policy decisions about "who should be Batgirl this year?", for instance. Then a new regime might have very different ideas about the wisdom of reviving the concept of having "Batgirl" be of obvious East Asian heritage instead of a red-headed white girl. (Or, alternately, might be willing to let Cassandra use _some other_ heroic alias while spending several years as one of the valued members of a team book, even if Babs was still calling herself "Batgirl" at the same time.)

----------


## catbatfan

Could Cassandra be the new Oracle? Cassandra was the name of the Oracle of mythology. Now I don't mean having Cass become wheelchair-bound and a tech expert, but perhaps she could adopt the codename somehow?

----------


## Blight

> Could Cassandra be the new Oracle? Cassandra was the name of the Oracle of mythology. Now I don't mean having Cass become wheelchair-bound and a tech expert, but perhaps she could adopt the codename somehow?


There will be a new Oracle and I think we just had her introduced in Batman Eternal. I for one wouldn't want Cassandra to be Oracle. Though I'm curious whenever they do reintroduce her will she be mute or have very limited vocal range. It is a matter of time given Snyder is a fact. He will keep trying somehow someway along with any other writer/artist whose a fan of the character too.

The best bet does seem to be Grayson, and honestly I think SDCC should be interesting unless DC withholds panels attendees from asking questions.

----------


## catbatfan

> The best bet does seem to be Grayson, and honestly I think SDCC should be interesting unless DC withholds panels attendees from asking questions.


Why do you think she would appear in Grayson?

----------


## Punisher007

Because it's a spy/espionage book, which would be a good place for David Cain and his badass daughter to appear in.  He is a mercenary/assassin after all.  Or Cass could be one of SPYRAL's agents, or going after SPYRAL herself when she meets Dick and Helena B, etc. Point is, there are any number of ways that you could plausible introduce her in that book.

----------


## catbatfan

> Because it's a spy/espionage book, which would be a good place for David Cain and his badass daughter to appear in.  He is a mercenary/assassin after all.  Or Cass could be one of SPYRAL's agents, or going after SPYRAL herself when she meets Dick and Helena B, etc. Point is, there are any number of ways that you could plausible introduce her in that book.


I hope not. I'm not interested in reading about a gun-toting Dick Grayson or the bizarre New 52 version of Helena Bertinelli.

Gotham Academy would have been a better place for Cass. Bruce Wayne's adopted mute assassin daughter enrolled in prep school? Yes, please!!!

----------


## Blight



----------


## catbatfan

Sue from DC Women Kicking Ass feels confident about a New 52 Cass return (debut?).

----------


## godisawesome

Make sense. If Stephanie Brown can come back, it's likely that Snyder and co. are working on a pitch that will appease the more superstitious executives that she can come back. It will almost certainly be a debut as opposed to a return, just because of the One True Batgirl mandate. But as long  as it remains an in house Bat-project, I have confidence they'll be okay. They just need to avoid letting someone outside the office try for it, or we'll get something like the Helena Bertinelli-I mean Wayne fiasco or Scott Lobdell.

----------


## catbatfan

Maybe Cass could be the new Robin? If she does come back, I hope they go back to her silent assassin roots. I hated how she could suddenly talk in complete sentences after One Year Later. I liked that she was silent and deadly, and when she did say something, it was usually significant.

----------


## Blight

> Sue from DC Women Kicking Ass feels confident about a New 52 Cass return (debut?).


Something was probably said to her. Maybe she asked Snyder, Burnham, or someone and got an answer, but couldn't fully acknowledge it as a quote for a later announcement (NYCC? C2E2? Emerald City?). Hopefullly, editorial doesn't change their minds on the issue at the last minute.  In any case, here's the sketch she got from Burnham too:

----------


## catbatfan

Although I am not a huge fan of Chris Burnham's art in general, I like his Black Bat. I love how it's simply a redesign of her Batgirl costume but creepier and with more face.

----------


## Agent Z

Here's something that I've been curious about and hope I can get an answer for; does anyone think that the reason DC keeps Cass in limbo is because of a perceived lack of marketability of her origin? 

Here's what I mean: Cass' backstory is that she was trained from a tender age to became a killing machine. This training involved depriving her of human speech and most social contact and shooting her to hone her reflexes. She then kills a man at the age of eight (the usual age for when Bruce lost his parents). This origin is in contrast with most members of the Bat-family who are witnesses to or victims of crime, while Cass becomes a hero to atone for a crime she committed. Imagine trying to show this backstory in the Paul Dini series (which was fairly dark itself). Or even in the Nolan movies? And then there's the fact that her mother sired her solely for the purpose of dying by Cass' hands for not killing the man who killed her sister. I've heard complaints about how certain things in comics can't be adapted to different mediums and maybe DC feels this way about Cass' character. I hope I've made myself as understandable as possible.

----------


## heyevaxx

@cheetah
Good post! I hadn't thought of the contrast between Cass and the other Gotham Family members with her pivotal event being her committing a crime vs everyone else watching or being a crime victim.

This might get TL;DR but I think Cassandra Cain (my 2nd fave comic char) and DC might not have a good fit. Plus, if they bring her back it might be more upsetting for old Cass fans than just having her staying retired.

I'm no expert but DC seems to focus and develop more sexualized, violent and "simple" female characters in comparison to Marvel. I think Harley Quinn and the Nu52 Catwoman are great examples.

HQ was pretty nutty, violent and (of course) highly sexualized pre-52 and post-52 it seems to me she's amped up even more.

And my #1 fave Catwoman went from a shades of gray, mercurial anti-hero who played by her own rules and was more sensually manipulative than overtly sexual to an eye-scratching, ultra-violent, hyper-sexual (sex with Batman in 1st 2 issues), stupidly reckless (strong arm robbery in broad daylight in street clothes, face uncovered) fool. Selina was changed into a sex-pot, thieving simpleton.

Now for the Nu52 Harley and Selina there may be exceptions where they have some subtlety or nuance. I can say for Selina that there aren't any or they are drowned out in Catwoman's ridiculous characterization. 

How would Cass fit into this Nu52? Pre-52 Cassandra is introverted, haunted by her murder as an 8 year old, intense, occasional dead pan (and maybe unintentional) humor and flashes of teenage girlishness (usually with her BFF, Steph).

An issue for DC is how to have the world's greatest or almost greatest martial artist and swordswoman fit in with non-superpowered Gotham goodies and baddies. Batman is supposed to be the top dog for fighting in Gotham and I'm sure this makes execs (I'm talking about Dan here) scratch their head and think "but Batman has to be the best!" Dan DiDio has been quoted as liking the good/bad guy hierarchy that he grew up with in the 70s and Cass sure doesn't fit into that.

Secondly, Cassie is not sexualize-able in the least. She may be the least sexual female Gotham headliner. In Justice League Elite #9 2005-05, Cass has a tender kiss with Coldcast after she reveals she's Batgirl and thinks they're about to die. In Batgirl on a cruise, Cass was put into a bikini and commented on how it's kind of dumb (despite the art). She sort of had a flirty relationship with Superboy. And she picked up a teen admirer in her own title and spent the day with him ending in a kiss. And that was it. She's not dating a lot like Tim Drake or Kara Zor-El.

How should DC handle brining back Cass, a female, full face masked, super assassin who has communication challenges? Why not rename her Strix and get rid of all that unwanted Cassandra Cain baggage! [/sarcasm] I was struck by the similarities between Strix and Cass. And it was depressing.

Pre-OYL Cass was hard to write for mainstream comics: thoughtful, intense, a great martial artist (best?) and acrobat (good as Catwoman?), handicapped with limited language and reading skills and supremely empathetic.  Cassandra's childhood murder acts like a fusion generator powering her relentless quest to stop killing and baddies hurting innocents. She even goes overboard almost killing herself stopping a bad guy from killing another baddie in a cross fire! (from Batgirl #6)

If a DC writer or editor made the right product pitch to DiDio and his execs that seemed profitable, Cass would come back. I don't think Dan DiDio dislikes Cass so much he'd pass on higher sales. Money is what this is all about, not good art, stories and our favorite characters. Recently a DC guy said it was all about toys and merchandise and boys buy toys while girls don't (paraphrasing his words). Since that's where the money is, DC focuses on their male demographic (i'm guessing 13-30). Female leads, especially nuanced, subtle, complex females are not likely to get investment from DC.

DC may have learned their lesson with Catwoman. They drove Selina into the ground until she became the laughing stock of the Gotham reading community. Now they're handing her writing over to a comic new comer who's a well regarded novelist. Will DC "see the light" with Cass and bring her back right, in a way that old schoolers like me and new comic buyers will go for? Maybe not, Selina is a 75 year old legend that most non-comic readers know of or at least have heard of. Poor Cassie is just known in the comics world and mostly in the Gotham scene. She might not have the heft for a comeback or re-write like Selina's getting.

Ok, that was depressing, I think I read an old pre-Puckett or a Puckett Cass comic to cheer up.  :Smile:

----------


## Lorendiac

> Here's something that I've been curious about and hope I can get an answer for; does anyone think that the reason DC keeps Cass in limbo is because of a perceived lack of marketability of her origin?


Frankly -- no. I think they keep her in limbo because Dan DiDio just plain doesn't like her. 

If her origin is a problem, they could always modify it. The New 52 certainly provides ample excuse for rewriting a few details as required. For instance, removing that part about "as a cute little girl, she actually *killed* a man on Cain's orders before she quite understood the significance of what she was doing." And the part about "Shiva was her biological mother all along" was a very late retcon in the last year or so of Cass's solo series, as I recall, so that could _easily_ be tossed out the window as well, without ruining the core concept. 

And these details would also be easy to revise if she were being adapted for a Dini-style cartoon or a Nolan-style movie. Comic book origin stories _often_ get modified (or heavily rewritten) when the characters are being used in other mediums of expression. (For instance, in the comics, Ra's al Ghul and his fanatical followers had nothing whatsoever to do with Bruce Wayne's origin story. And Victor Von Doom was in no way involved in the situation which caused the Fantastic Four to suddenly acquire strange powers after they'd been exposed to some weird cosmic radiation.) 

If they aren't making serious use of Cassandra Cain, it's not because they couldn't possibly revise her origins to be a trifle less shocking -- it's because the policymakers *don't want* to even make the effort to find a way to make her a profitable asset in today's market!

----------


## catbatfan

^^ Agreed. You also have to consider how this same regime attempted to make Cassandra first evil and then irrelevant in the five or so years leading up to the New 52. Her origin story has nothing to do with why she hasn't yet appeared in the New 52.

----------


## Agent Z

> @cheetah
> Good post! I hadn't thought of the contrast between Cass and the other Gotham Family members with her pivotal event being her committing a crime vs everyone else watching or being a crime victim.
> 
> This might get TL;DR but I think Cassandra Cain (my 2nd fave comic char) and DC might not have a good fit. Plus, if they bring her back it might be more upsetting for old Cass fans than just having her staying retired.
> 
> I'm no expert but DC seems to focus and develop more sexualized, violent and "simple" female characters in comparison to Marvel. I think Harley Quinn and the Nu52 Catwoman are great examples.
> 
> HQ was pretty nutty, violent and (of course) highly sexualized pre-52 and post-52 it seems to me she's amped up even more.
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying. I think some of the things that really make Cass special are things that require more in-depth understanding. But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.

----------


## heyevaxx

> ... But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.


Oh, I agree that Cassandra's speech, reading, her pre-8 almost feral upbringing and her on the run/no parent 8-17 life creates plenty of disadvantages that more than counter-balance her top notch martial arts skills.

It's just that I'm guessing that for writers/editors/execs, having Cass as good or better than Bruce at fighting rubs them wrong.

E.g. back to DiDio saying he likes the comic characters and hierarchy he grew up with, Cass would not fit in the slightest in his comic world view. Nor did Steph. Nor did The Oracle. So we get old school Batgirl and just recently Steph coming back after some time off.

I think I've read that the DC team has also expressed frustration on how to fit an older, more skilled Dick Grayson into the Gotham world. Pre-52, Dick was getting closer and closer to Bruce in so many ways to the point where Dick took over the mantel while Bruce did Batman Inc. Now Dick is out of Gotham in a non-costumed role which let's Bruce completely fill the Batman role.

And while I think the DC folks might have a "Cass doesn't fit" issue, by no means do *I* think that. It's been shown many times that Cass can be written well. But as the end of her self title getting rocky and post-OYL have shown, DC has also failed spectacularly at keeping up a nuanced, complicated portrayal of Cass that's consistent.

I just can't get over the Strix similarities. It's almost as if the DC exec(s) wanted a Cass-like character without having to write her in a believable, satisfying way that synched with her pre-52 history. It might be better that we don't get Cass back if DC isn't confident they can do it successfully - meaning both profitably and satisfying to most Cass fans.

----------


## TheDarkKnightReturns

> I hear what you're saying. I think some of the things that really make Cass special are things that require more in-depth understanding. But I'm surprised that her martial arts skills would be considered a threat to Bruce when he outclasses her in everything else. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Dinah Lance, Lady Shiva and even Bronze Tiger outclass him.


Cass is borderline a metahuman. And she has great skills so thats why she can put Bruce in real danger. She did beat Lady Shiva in a fight by breaking her neck after all. Bruce defeated Bronze Tiger so he should not be a problem for Batman. I don't know where you read that but I can tell you Dinah is below Bruce. Batman challenged her into a real fight following a provocation on her part but she declined it by looking down at the ground. Too scared I guess by seeing the expression on her face. New 52 BC, that version being Dinah Drake, has close to no chance at beating Batman in a fight. Thank you New 52. :Confused:  Either way, Cass and Lady Shiva are the ones who outclass Batman in fighting skills. Not Bronze Tiger nor BC.

----------


## Blight

> If they aren't making serious use of Cassandra Cain, it's not because they couldn't possibly revise her origins to be a trifle less shocking -- it's because the policymakers *don't want* to even make the effort to find a way to make her a profitable asset in today's market!



The sad thing is she could be a VERY profitable asset in today's market. She was in the past when DC gave out good writers and artists who understood the character. She could be "their Iron Fist or Hawkeye" with special issues like a silent issue or showing the world through her eyes and how she see's every fight before her. But nope someone up top just blindly see's a character they don't like and it's losing them money.

----------


## The Nuke

It is sad that she still hasn't been re-introduced. And worst part is that with Carrie Kelly, Stephanie, and Harper Row in the mix now, why does Batman need another girl?

In my mind I think she should come back, and actually be a meta consequence of the NU52. She will become BATMAN after Bruce. How would I plan on bringing her back? About the only way that comes to mind without getting in the way of the other girls is to make her a............BABY. Yep, I said it. Batman finds a 2 year old Cassandra Cain sitting in a pool of blood, her dead parents on either side. As is custom with Bruce in these situations, he adopts her. Big news for Gotham City, "Bruce Wayne adopts baby girl who's parents were murdered."

And that's pretty much it. She would never be a big thing, but she would be...there. He comes home during the night to check out something on the computer, he stops, looks down, and there she is. Smiling like yell. He looks up to see the clock door open, wondering how in the hell she did that? He then puts her in his lap, continues working, she falls asleep.

We see Alfred taking care of a baby. Damien playing with her. Batman feeding her. Bruce reading her a story before bed time. As the Batman stories go on, as the writers, and artist change she will always be the one constant. We will actually see her grow up. The more she grows the more we know that Batman will one day be replaced. She will be Bruces fate.

----------


## Malachi

> It is sad that she still hasn't been re-introduced. And worst part is that with Carrie Kelly, Stephanie, and Harper Row in the mix now, why does Batman need another girl?
> 
> In my mind I think she should come back, and actually be a meta consequence of the NU52. She will become BATMAN after Bruce. How would I plan on bringing her back? About the only way that comes to mind without getting in the way of the other girls is to make her a............BABY. Yep, I said it. Batman finds a 2 year old Cassandra Cain sitting in a pool of blood, her dead parents on either side. As is custom with Bruce in these situations, he adopts her. Big news for Gotham City, "Bruce Wayne adopts baby girl who's parents were murdered."
> 
> And that's pretty much it. She would never be a big thing, but she would be...there. He comes home during the night to check out something on the computer, he stops, looks down, and there she is. Smiling like yell. He looks up to see the clock door open, wondering how in the hell she did that? He then puts her in his lap, continues working, she falls asleep.
> 
> We see Alfred taking care of a baby. Damien playing with her. Batman feeding her. Bruce reading her a story before bed time. As the Batman stories go on, as the writers, and artist change she will always be the one constant. We will actually see her grow up. The more she grows the more we know that Batman will one day be replaced. She will be Bruces fate.


I would like that. The problem is to convince non-Cass fans. I would make her older though, 6-7 perhaps. Right after her first murder. After that she would be raised to be the new Batman. But not a Batman of the old mold. A new one where Robin(or other alias) cover for her weaknesses. Cass would be the fighter, strong justice, a visual way of reconstructing a crime scene and a more empathic Batman. Robin would be the social, fact finding, speaking and so on. I would have Cass being forced to keep her brain rerouted to reach that fighting edge, a price for her skill so to say, thus she will never speak much or be able to understand written/spoken language much. She is weak in all of the tasks that require her brain to use theoretical knowledge and other things that are just constructs of thoughts.

If I remember correctly Daimian Scotts Solo issue had something like this in a alternative future chapter.

It would truly be a Batman for the future. A gender equal version with mixes of ethnicity. So I guess comicfans would never warm up to it  :Stick Out Tongue:  We are stuck with our never changing white alpha males.

On a sidenote: Snyder wanted Cass in his first issue of Batman (where his "family" gathers up) but was nixed. That was also the last issue I read of said comic. He later wanted her again but was denied again, so he created Harper to fill that spot. Cudus to snyder for trying, sadly it seems he is up against some strong prejudices inside DC.

----------


## Chickfighter

Saw a nice column at Comics Alliance yesterday on the strange case of Batgirl Cassandra Cain that I thought I'd share for anyone interested.

http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-...assandra-cain/

----------


## Sacred Knight

I still say another franchise should nab her.  DC clearly has absolutely no plans on using her in the Batverse, so why not some other title make a pitch to use her?  Put her on Gen13 for example.  Its not like characters from one franchise being poached to another is unheard of (used to happen to Superman's supporting cast all the time).

----------


## catbatfan

I'd like to see Cassandra in Birds of Prey or the Outsiders if she were to be on a team. Gen13 is way too out of left field for Cass. They're all metahumans for one, and DC has done a terrible job trying to integrate Wildstorm into the main DCU. I wouldn't want Cass anywhere near that situation!

----------


## Nick Miller

she would fit nicely in Teen Titans

----------


## Nick Miller

> Saw a nice column at Comics Alliance yesterday on the strange case of Batgirl Cassandra Cain that I thought I'd share for anyone interested.
> 
> http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-...assandra-cain/


what the heck is he talking about Cass Cain having the worst name in comics? LOL 
Not once have i thought that.

----------


## catbatfan

From Bleeding Cool's Toronto Fan Expo report:

*“When am I going to see Cassandra Cain, or have I already missed her?” an audience member asked.

“Well you haven’t missed her,” said [Ray] Fawkes. “That’s all I’m gonna say.”
*
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/08/...l-at-fan-expo/

I'm not sure exactly what he means. "That's all I'm gonna say" could be a hint/tease that there are upcoming, yet-to-be-announced plans for Cassandra. But it could also mean he doesn't want to comment on the behind-the-scenes shenanigans responsible for Cass still remaining benched.

----------


## Chickfighter

> what the heck is he talking about Cass Cain having the worst name in comics? LOL 
> Not once have i thought that.


Yeah, I'm with you on that. The name was never an issue for me either.

----------


## Chickfighter

> From Bleeding Cool's Toronto Fan Expo report:
> 
> *“When am I going to see Cassandra Cain, or have I already missed her?” an audience member asked.
> 
> “Well you haven’t missed her,” said [Ray] Fawkes. “That’s all I’m gonna say.”
> *
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/08/...l-at-fan-expo/
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what he means. "That's all I'm gonna say" could be a hint/tease that there are upcoming, yet-to-be-announced plans for Cassandra. But it could also mean he doesn't want to comment on the behind-the-scenes shenanigans responsible for Cass still remaining benched.


That sounds to me like he's implying that we haven't missed her because editorial is dead set against her and won't allow her to appear, but he can't comment about it directly.

----------


## Nix Uotan

Have faith... I am sure they will get to her. People said Stephanie would never appear again and they got a story for her so I imagine the same will be for Cass. I do hope most of her backstory remains though... namely bred to lead the League, adopted by Bruce and so on... if there was ever a Batman Inc, she would be a perfect member of the cast as perhaps Batman's international agent. Maybe some team-up with Luke Fox.

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## catbatfan

> Have faith... I am sure they will get to her. People said Stephanie would never appear again and they got a story for her so I imagine the same will be for Cass.


Yeah but you're forgetting how DC marginalized Cass even prior to the New 52. During the 5 years between when Cass lost her solo title and the debut of the New 52, she was turned evil, then brainwashed, then relegated to background character, and then finally lost her Batgirl identity and was sent packing out of Gotham City. The Stephanie situation was different.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah but you're forgetting how DC marginalized Cass even prior to the New 52. During the 5 years between when Cass lost her solo title and the debut of the New 52, she was turned evil, then brainwashed, then relegated to background character, and then finally lost her Batgirl identity and was sent packing out of Gotham City. The Stephanie situation was different.


And during this entire time we kept on hearing how they had these massive, big plans for Cass, next year. Really, I don't know why anybody still pays attention to anything DC editorial claims anymore.

----------


## catbatfan

> And during this entire time we kept on hearing how they had these massive, big plans for Cass, next year. Really, I don't know why anybody still pays attention to anything DC editorial claims anymore.


Oh yes. I remember that. I honestly don't think they were lying, though. There was supposed to be a new Cassandra solo series written and drawn by Billy Tucci that never materialized. I think they meant it when they said that had plans, but the higher-ups must have put an end to all that.

----------


## Carabas

> Oh yes. I remember that. I honestly don't think they were lying, though. There was supposed to be a new Cassandra solo series written and drawn by Billy Tucci that never materialized. I think they meant it when they said that had plans, but the higher-ups must have put an end to all that.


Whether they were lying through their teeth or not, their communications still have zero credibility.

----------


## Smoov-E

> From Bleeding Cool's Toronto Fan Expo report:
> 
> *When am I going to see Cassandra Cain, or have I already missed her? an audience member asked.
> 
> Well you havent missed her, said [Ray] Fawkes. Thats all Im gonna say.
> *
> http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/08/...l-at-fan-expo/
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what he means. "That's all I'm gonna say" could be a hint/tease that there are upcoming, yet-to-be-announced plans for Cassandra. But it could also mean he doesn't want to comment on the behind-the-scenes shenanigans responsible for Cass still remaining benched.



It only means, "We don't have the courage to say ain't nothing is going to happen with her"

If Grant Morrison can barely get to use her that should tell you something

----------


## Nick Miller

Maybe we should start sending food. What's her favorite breakfast item?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah but you're forgetting how DC marginalized Cass even prior to the New 52. During the 5 years between when Cass lost her solo title and the debut of the New 52, she was turned evil, then brainwashed, then relegated to background character, and then finally lost her Batgirl identity and was sent packing out of Gotham City. The Stephanie situation was different.


And Steph was only different so that they could get back to the Batgirl DC wanted.

----------


## Blight

> Oh yes. I remember that. I honestly don't think they were lying, though. There was supposed to be a new Cassandra solo series written and drawn by Billy Tucci that never materialized. I think they meant it when they said that had plans, but the higher-ups must have put an end to all that.


Oh there was plans. I asked Tucci three years ago (I promised to keep my mouth shut at that time). He had a pitch, the question as always and I guess was answered was editorial didn't like that pitch. I guess in part due to the New 52 and Barbara's heightened Batgirl appearance due to it. Well at least something nice came from Fan Expo in this Marcus To commissioned piece:

----------


## Blight

> Maybe we should start sending food. What's her favorite breakfast item?



Bags of tea?

----------


## Chickfighter

> Oh there was plans. I asked Tucci three years ago (I promised to keep my mouth shut at that time). He had a pitch, the question as always and I guess was answered was editorial didn't like that pitch. I guess in part due to the New 52 and Barbara's heightened Batgirl appearance due to it. Well at least something nice came from Fan Expo in this Marcus To commissioned piece:


Wow, love that drawing! That is so the Kickass Cass and Waffle Chef Steph series I wanted in the New 52.  :Wink:

----------


## Blight

Well that didn't take long at all for this to get colored:

----------


## catbatfan

That Marcos To art is beautiful!! So jealous!!!

I have a hypothetical question: If/when Cassandra makes her New 52 identity, what should her secret identity be? Should she be the new Robin? Nightwing? Should she "continue" as Blackbat? Or should she start fresh with a new codename? I'm partial to Blackbat, but I also think it would be cool if she became the new Robin. We hardly saw her as Blackbat, so I think that's an identity worth exploring rather than making up a new name.

----------


## godisawesome

I think Black Bat is the best bet, and it's my preferred identity for her. And right now I'm one of those people hoping they decide to launch a Red Robin/Spoiler book out of Eternal, and that would be the prefect spot to start sewing seeds for Cass's return, unless they have an Eternal 2 waiting in the wings. And ideally, that comic would be written by some combination of Fabian Nicieza or Brian Q. Miller with Marcus To or Dustin Nguyen on art.

----------


## catbatfan

Well, Batman Eternal is going on hiatus in the spring at the end of the current story (around #52). I imagine it will return with a new creative team and new number one, so that could be a good place for Cass to return. I think Eternal has done a good job of getting people interested in Steph who weren't interested (or weren't reading) before, and the same could happen for Cass. And let's face it, it's also a good money grab. I don't know if I would have read Eternal without Steph, but her inclusion basically got me to pick up the equivalent of four extra monthly titles from DC. Smart move on their part.

----------


## Zainu

I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)

I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 

*puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?






> Batwing: Futures End #1 features a two page spread which shows the Five Years Later version of Batman Inc. that includes someone who looks awfully familiar.

----------


## Shimbo

> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)
> 
> I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 
> 
> *puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?


This is a hypothetical future five years from now. These one shots are just a gimmick, while some actually contribute to the story of Future's End. When they bring Cass back, and they will, this will be irrelevant. Until then you'll just have to wait.

----------


## Blight

> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)
> 
> I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 
> 
> *puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?



It was probably attended to be Cassandra via the artist, but the colorist probably on orders from editorial did the color job. Basically, it's same thing that happened to Stephanie in Lil' Gotham and Smallville.

----------


## K. Jones

> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)
> 
> I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 
> 
> *puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?


I'd bemoan her aesthetic problems, too ... but I mean ... look left or right. Jiro, Santiago, Pippi, Beryl ... not a lot of individuality or ethnic vibe coming off of any of them. Barring Sorrentino's Arrow finale, and Saiz, I don't think Futures End is going to be blasting out a ton of exquisite art.

----------


## heyevaxx

If the ComicVine wiki is right, this is kind of depressing. Sure it's a possible future one shot but still. This is the wrong character to tease with.  :Frown:

----------


## ABH

> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)
> 
> I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 
> 
> *puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?


That's definitely disappointing, as it looks like it was clearly meant to be Cass (and she would have looked awesome next to Jiro).

My guess is that Blight is right, and that some editor asked the colorist to change it. I certainly don't think it was a colorist error, since all the other known Batman Inc. character costumes are appropriately colored.

----------


## teddyeatsyourface

I think the "black bat" character is supposed to be misfit.

----------


## Jcogginsa

does anyone have a picture of the supposed Cass?

----------


## teddyeatsyourface



----------


## Blight

> does anyone have a picture of the supposed Cass?





> I hate to be the bringer of bad news but...has anyone seen blonde, motor mouth, white-washed creature that may or may not be Cass? (Or Black Bat Steph...as if she hadn't stolen enough cowls already)
> 
> I feel so numb right now. I've been praying that they'd finally do some justice to her, but it looks like they're only giving her a one-time, white-washed cameo like n52 Connor Hawke.. 
> 
> *puts head into hands* ...DC....why...?



I'm just rolling my eyes and more annoyed. Not really ticked or anything. After three years and with Stephanie being colored and replaced TWICE. How is this any different? The thing I'm just annoyed with is that DC Editorial is so darn thorough when it comes to Cass/Steph, but explaining the past history of the New 52? Nope, they ain't gonna touch that.  Though you have to applaud whatever editor caught that and maybe the artist to try and sneak in a Cassandra Cain appearance were he thought no editor maybe wouldn't look.

----------


## KonFan78

Love Cassandra Cain, a great character who brought some much needed diversity to the Bat family (seriously, I look at them and wonder if I'm at a klan rally sometimes). Don't get me wrong I think the Bat family has some of the strongest bonds and characters of any Hero family but would it kill DC to add a little diversity, or keep the ethnic characters (Cass Cain) that have a loyal fan base that are already here.

Superboy Kon-El is my favorite comic character, and my favorite romance of his was the too short one he shared with Cass. These two were great together because of how different they were. I haven't been able to find it again, but some years back I read a short fan fic called When Kon Met Sandy, and it was Kon reminiscing on how he nick named Cass Sandy while he was waiting for her so they could go out dancing.

----------


## heyevaxx

@ KonFan78
Is this the right fanfic?

*When Kon Met Sandy* by Carmen Williams
http://offpanel.net/carmen/stories/KonSandy.html

PS - I just finished When Kon Met Sandy and really liked it! I don't read many fanfics but this was excellent, the author nicely captures Kon's voice and totally gets Cass. Very nice little story.

----------


## KonFan78

> @ KonFan78
> Is this the right fanfic?
> 
> *When Kon Met Sandy* by Carmen Williams
> http://offpanel.net/carmen/stories/KonSandy.html
> 
> PS - I just finished When Kon Met Sandy and really liked it! I don't read many fanfics but this was excellent, the author nicely captures Kon's voice and totally gets Cass. Very nice little story.


Yes, you are awesome, thank you thank you thank you thank you.  :Smile:

----------


## Black Angel

i hope she is introduced soon and has some more interactions with damian.

----------


## KonFan78

So out of curiosity, am I the only Cass/Kon fan. Cause I'm not getting much love over at the Superboy appreciation thread.

----------


## Sacred Knight

I liked it.  They're both kinda misfits but Cass is more the silent loner while Kon was the loud troublemaker.  I thought it was an interesting dynamic, what I saw of it.

And I'll admit, that's half the reason why when the New 52 began I hoped the Superboy book would snatch her up, and now that that's cancelled, why I hope the upcoming Gen13 which will also feature Kon, will use her. 

I mean, I don't get why the Batman line doesn't want her, but I don't get even more why another line can't use her if that's the case.

----------


## Flash Gordon

I like the idea of Cassandra Cain being Batman's "secret weapon". 

I'd have Bruce Wayne adopt her straight up, and she'd be Damien's younger sister. She'd still have speech issues, and she'd be a real tough combatant. It'd create a nice little family for Bruce, a son and a daughter. Though I'd keep her away from crime-fighting for some time.

My ideal supporting cast for BATMAN would be Richard Grayson, Alfred Pennyworth, Selina Kyle, Damien Wayne, Cassandra Cain, (and whatever love interest Bruce has temporarily that isn't CATWOMAN.)

----------


## godisawesome

I really liked the original Kon and Cass friendship/flirtation. And I am very curious how it would work if they did it now and analyzed both characters through the issues of "raised as weapons." Cass makes everything a little bit more fun, so I could see them redoing the relationship so Kon's the straight man if they wanted to.

And Cass being taken in by Bruce early on has some storytelling potential, though I prefer to think of it terms of her being his apprentice and him being her Sensei, with her complex filial relationship with Cain still being closer to her actual family. But imagine if they had a 12 or 13 year old Cass around an older Babs and Dick, and if they integrated her skills and education into the B-plot for several stories.

I will say I'd have this be in some kind of alternate timeline story rather than the main one; I want her back with her sub generation of Batkids.

----------


## Lorendiac

I just feel like offering a nice Cassandra Cain/Batgirl cosplay pic I recently saw. (Looks like it was first posted at http://vixen-virus.deviantart.com/ar...Cain-162116968)

_Cassandra_Cain__by_Vixen_Virus.jpg

----------


## Zainu

> I'd bemoan her aesthetic problems, too ... but I mean ... look left or right. Jiro, Santiago, Pippi, Beryl ... not a lot of individuality or ethnic vibe coming off of any of them. Barring Sorrentino's Arrow finale, and Saiz, I don't think Futures End is going to be blasting out a ton of exquisite art.


Now, that you mention it--the rest of Batman Inc does look pretty white. Maybe it was just a bad colorist after all  :Big Grin: 




> So out of curiosity, am I the only Cass/Kon fan. Cause I'm not getting much love over at the Superboy appreciation thread.


KonCas is one of my top five ships. On tumblr, me and another fan nicknamed the ship 'Castle in the Sky'. It's really an adorable(or _adorkable?_ :Wink: ) couple. 

Plus, Daddybats aneurysm would be a sight to see.

----------


## Zainu

> I just feel like offering a nice Cassandra Cain/Batgirl cosplay pic I recently saw. (Looks like it was first posted at http://vixen-virus.deviantart.com/ar...Cain-162116968)
> 
> Attachment 9389


Ahhh, that's gorgeous! And her original costume too! Lovely stuff, Lorendiac.

----------


## KonFan78

> Now, that you mention it--the rest of Batman Inc does look pretty white. Maybe it was just a bad colorist after all 
> 
> 
> KonCas is one of my top five ships. On tumblr, me and another fan nicknamed the ship 'Castle in the Sky'. It's really an adorable(or _adorkable?_) couple. 
> 
> Plus, Daddybats aneurysm would be a sight to see.


Glad to hear I'm not the only one who loves this pairing. And yeah I got a kick out of Batman's freak out over it.

----------


## Blight

> And yeah I got a kick out of Batman's freak out over it.


That was always highly amusing. Pity nothing ever came of the three (Cass, Kon, and Tim) having anymore adventures together. Superboy #85 is probably my go too DC comic if I ever need a good laugh.

----------


## Lorendiac

> That was always highly amusing. Pity nothing ever came of the three (Cass, Kon, and Tim) having anymore adventures together. Superboy #85 is probably my go too DC comic if I ever need a good laugh.


I bought that story when it first came out. Main thing I liked was the bit at the _end_. As I recall: Superboy, showing more moral fiber than I'd previously given him credit for, insisted that if Batgirl was in serious trouble with Batman just for working with a metahuman without permission, then Superboy wanted half of the punishment for himself. Tim frantically tried to talk him out of that. Batman looked at Kon and then turned away, saying, "If you have any plans for the rest of the week, cancel. You won't feel up to them. *Any* of them." 

Come to think of it . . . I don't believe we ever did find out exactly how Kon and Cassandra spent the next day or two, doing whatever their "penance" was supposed to be? Something incredibly strenuous, I suppose, probably tailored so that Kon-El's tactile telekinesis wouldn't make it much easier for him to do . . .

----------


## Black Angel

I hear cassie appears in Batgirl future's end in this true? If so then i need to buy that issue.

----------


## Sirzechs

> I hear cassie appears in Batgirl future's end in this true? If so then i need to buy that issue.


Yup it was good issue Cass , Steph and the young Tiffany fox.

----------


## Malachi

> I hear cassie appears in Batgirl future's end in this true? If so then i need to buy that issue.


Normally I buy everything that Cass appears in but with this one I was puzzled so I checked it before. My verdict is that it's not worth a buy. That's based purely on Cass and her appearance in it.
Gail does an OK job with Cass. She isn't featured that much so it's neither bad nor good. The artist draws her angry and contorted in the face to much for my taste. It's probably due to the whole dystopian future thing(that comics still are trying to milk).

Buy it if you want to see Cass with a bit longer hair and the same batcowl that Babs and Steph used/uses. Other then that you don't see much of her fighting or her face, sadly  :Frown:

----------


## Black Angel

> Normally I buy everything that Cass appears in but with this one I was puzzled so I checked it before. My verdict is that it's not worth a buy. That's based purely on Cass and her appearance in it.
> Gail does an OK job with Cass. She isn't featured that much so it's neither bad nor good. The artist draws her angry and contorted in the face to much for my taste. It's probably due to the whole dystopian future thing(that comics still are trying to milk).
> 
> Buy it if you want to see Cass with a bit longer hair and the same batcowl that Babs and Steph used/uses. Other then that you don't see much of her fighting or her face, sadly


really it like that, but it's her 1st appearance in the new 52 so i gotta give it a buy.

----------


## nepenthes

Dan Didio and Jim Lee have stated outright stated they see FE as the firm "direction" of the DCU, even if the details change along the way. The books will be begin to roughly meander towards many of these outcomes. 

Bane Barbara we can assume is obviously less likely however if Gail Simone requested to use Cassandra and higher-ups okayed it, we can take that as a sign DC are more confident in how they'd like Cass to be portrayed in the New 52. This is very good. She's closer than before and likely on her way.

----------


## Chickfighter

> Dan Didio and Jim Lee have stated outright stated they see FE as the firm "direction" of the DCU, even if the details change along the way. The books will be begin to roughly meander towards many of these outcomes. 
> 
> Bane Barbara we can assume is obviously less likely however if Gail Simone requested to use Cassandra and higher-ups okayed it, we can take that as a sign DC are more confident in how they'd like Cass to be portrayed in the New 52. This is very good. She's closer than before and likely on her way.


So these Futures End things aren't just else world stories then? Yikes! Knowing the future is rarely a good thing, particularly for storytelling.

----------


## Fuzzy Cactus

> So these Futures End things aren't just else world stories then? Yikes! Knowing the future is rarely a good thing, particularly for storytelling.


I doubt the writers would really tip their hands as to the next year's worth of storylines like that.

----------


## nepenthes

> So these Futures End things aren't just else world stories then? Yikes! Knowing the future is rarely a good thing, particularly for storytelling.


They're not hard-and-fast but rather a rough road map of where they see the DCU heading over the next couple years. I think we're supposed to assume some elements will be continued, in some of shape of form, and many others will be dropped. Will be hard to digest for the type of fan who needs firm and concrete classifications but I like it as it reflects how editorial planning actually works in meta fashion. You suggest an end goal, you work towards and fine tune along the way. 




> IGN: I've actually seen some criticism online of people who are a little confused about the time jump nature of the event. They're saying that these stories don't count, because when we do actually get five years from now, this won't be the story. This is just sort of a "What If...?" story. How would you address those fans' concerns?
> 
> DiDio: What I'll say is -- i*t's very simple -- we're using Futures End, in a lot of these stories, as what we feel is the definitive direction of the DC Universe*, of the future. And as the Futures End storyline unfolds, it'll take us to places that give us the breadth and scope of what the DC Universe really stands for and what it is. It will really set the tone and direction for the universe, as long as we're here.
> 
> Lee: Taken literally, it's five years in our time and five years in story time. So it's in the future, and again I think the thing that resonates with creators is what we can all rally around and say, "That's really cool. I'll go for that story. That's a cool character." So let's move toward that and lean into it. That doesn't mean it necessarily happens exactly like that, scene for scene, but as you approach it you start to see, "Hey, this is the direction of the DC Universe."
> 
> DiDio: When you're dealing with these time travel storylines, a lot of it is, you know the direction the world is heading, and that's what we're setting, but *how we get there might be moved side-by-side and we change them, but the focus and the points we're going through are something that we feel will be integral* for all our storylines moving forward.


http://au.ign.com/articles/2014/09/0...res-end?page=2

----------


## InformationGeek

> So these Futures End things aren't just else world stories then? Yikes! Knowing the future is rarely a good thing, particularly for storytelling.


Personally, I wouldn't mind them going down the route to having a League of Batgirls (that be a fun concept with all of these characters together), but we make Barbara Gordon... well normal and stuff.  She just be Team Leader or something.

----------


## Black Angel

Babs getting training from bane and a league of batgirls doesn't sound bad to me. The fact they all have cassie in them is a big bonus so i won't complain.

----------


## Vanguard-01

So, wait. 

They're REALLY going to have Black Canary become the leader of the League of Assassins over the next five years?

They're REALLY going to have Wonder Woman lose herself in her God of War powers and go insane over the next five years?

They're REALY going to have Superman quit being Superman over the next five years? 

Yeah, if that's the case, then I need to think long and hard about dropping a ton of books.

----------


## InformationGeek

> So, wait. 
> 
> They're REALLY going to have Black Canary become the leader of the League of Assassins over the next five years?
> 
> They're REALLY going to have Wonder Woman lose herself in her God of War powers and go insane over the next five years?
> 
> They're REALY going to have Superman quit being Superman over the next five years? 
> 
> Yeah, if that's the case, then I need to think long and hard about dropping a ton of books.


They really shouldn't do that.  Though if they must make something from Futures End happen, I'm telling you people, League of Batgirls would be awesome!

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> They're not hard-and-fast but rather a rough road map of where they see the DCU heading over the next couple years. I think we're supposed to assume some elements will be continued, in some of shape of form, and many others will be dropped. Will be hard to digest for the type of fan who needs firm and concrete classifications but I like it as it reflects how editorial planning actually works in meta fashion. You suggest an end goal, you work towards and fine tune along the way. 
> 
> 
> http://au.ign.com/articles/2014/09/0...res-end?page=2


That might mean something, if these guys could keep to plans that are six months old, let alone a few years

----------


## Vanguard-01

> That might mean something, if these guys could keep to plans that are six months old, let alone a few years


Yeah, that's probably true. 

I've never been so glad about Editorial fickleness.

----------


## The Nuke

Yay for Cassandra. Atleast she does exist in the universe.

Still like my idea of her being the daughter of the Bat better. Still, she exist and is present. That's the main thing. Though I do kinda roll my eyes at the fan service.  

"Look everyone, both Steph and Cass will be batgirls. The stories and histories about the characters are gone, but they will be Batgirls. We did good, yes?"

----------


## Chickfighter

> They really shouldn't do that.  Though if they must make something from Futures End happen, I'm telling you people, League of Batgirls would be awesome!


Agreed. League of Batgirls would be awesome! My earlier point was essentially that by revealing one's direction you remove some of the reason for people to read. But as several have said DC can't follow a plan very far without changing it so no doubt a five year plan will never happen.

----------


## DIVINITY

I'm not sure about that mess over in Batwing, I haven't read it yet, but, Gail and the artist, got it right in BG:FE #1...

It took three years, and a not set in stone, future, one-shot, but I enjoyed seeing Cass, kicking ass...

----------


## heyevaxx

Yay! I'm so pleased that Cass made her Nu52 debut finally!

Yes, it was a possible Future's End issue which might not happen, some of her facial grimacing was a little odd, the issue wasn't focused on her, there's no origin/development hints, etc, etc.

But on the upside, she was definitely the bad arse in the group. Even Bane noticed: *"The quiet one seems particularly dangerous."* It was also a nod to her not talking a lot like the old days.

And we got some super Cass/Steph interactions! Steph: *"--Aw man, Cassandra, you always do this"* as Cassie poses over a pile of 7 knocked out thugs. And the *"You rely too much on your weapons" ... "I know what I said, okay? Sheesh"* exchange was classic Cass/Steph.

The ultimate quote in the issue for me and a really nice bit for Gail to write was Babs saying to Cass:
*"Cassandra, you came through hell and made everyone you met stronger and better. You are the person I most want to be."*

Wow! Those lines have so much meaning. The hell part might be a nod to Cassandra's comic-world upbringing and her going evil and back again. It could also be a nod to the real-world decision by DiDio to have Beechen make Cass Tim's enemy and the turmoil that caused ending with Cass disappearing after Gates of Gotham. The final parts about stronger/better, person I most want to be are about the nicest things Babs could say about Cass. 

Overall, I feel Gail did a wonderful job debuting Cass in this possible future. I'd love to see the conversations that happened about this; Dan DiDio grumbling at Gail's idea with the League of Batgirls including Cass with other writers/editors/execs falling into the pro and against camps.

Thanks Gail!!! Awesome job on this issue, bringing Cassandra back and on all the great DC comics you've done!

----------


## ceroxide

I was just going to ask how everyone felt about seeing Cass again :P I was way too excited and was not disappointed, mostly because the idea of Babs forming a Bats of Prey with Batgirls is awesome and come on that final shot of all of them hugging was too precious, Cass finally has a family

on a weird note a lot of the panel that showed her face she looks like a doppelganger of Marvel's X-23

----------


## Zainu

holyshitholyshitHOLYSHIT

AND ITS IN CHARACTER! CASS!!!!!

----------


## The Whovian

It was so cool to see Cass back. And she wasn't ruined or changed by DC like Shiva was

----------


## Cmbmool

> Yay! I'm so pleased that Cass made her Nu52 debut finally!
> 
> Yes, it was a possible Future's End issue which might not happen, some of her facial grimacing was a little odd, the issue wasn't focused on her, there's no origin/development hints, etc, etc.
> 
> But on the upside, she was definitely the bad arse in the group. Even Bane noticed: *"The quiet one seems particularly dangerous."* It was also a nod to her not talking a lot like the old days.
> 
> And we got some super Cass/Steph interactions! Steph: *"--Aw man, Cassandra, you always do this"* as Cassie poses over a pile of 7 knocked out thugs. And the *"You rely too much on your weapons" ... "I know what I said, okay? Sheesh"* exchange was classic Cass/Steph.
> 
> The ultimate quote in the issue for me and a really nice bit for Gail to write was Babs saying to Cass:
> ...


 Even though I was often against Gail Simoje writing Babs in the new 52, it moments/issues like these that remind me why she is such a great fan loved writer. 

Thank you Ms. Simone.  :Smile:

----------


## sicsexsix

FYI for any mobile Injustice players here, they're adding Cass to the roster, and it sounds like she's gonna be a supremely badass card!  Her damage stats are insane!

batgirl.jpg

----------


## Kurisu

That's awesome.  Here's hoping she's in Injustice 2.

----------


## K. Jones

I thought it would be kind of neat if ... the Lady Shiva we've met so far in the New 52 IS Cass. To say nothing of a larger, longer road-to-redemption and her working closely with Cheshire, too.

Batgirl Futures End # 1 had a line of dialogue about her being associated with assassins, so that much is consistent in the New continuity.

----------


## godisawesome

> FYI for any mobile Injustice players here, they're adding Cass to the roster, and it sounds like she's gonna be a supremely badass card!  Her damage stats are insane!
> 
> Attachment 9999


...I'll actually be able to show some of my students and fellow geeks why Cass is in my opinion a better Batgirl than Babs...

----------


## Blight

An awesome Peter Nguyen piece:

----------


## The Whovian

> An awesome Peter Nguyen piece:


That is cool

----------


## peterob

Just wanted to hop in and say hi fellow lovers of Cass Cain! It's the only Bat family book I've ever seriously read (not really a Batman fan). Loved her origin, characterization, and her "power" set (if you can call it that). Hopefully we'll get to really see her do her thing in Nu 52 soon!

----------


## godisawesome

Anyone know what comic featured Cass making the deal with Shiva for the one day of training= one death duel in the future? I've got the duel itself and their first meeting, but not the deal issue.

----------


## Blight

> Anyone know what comic featured Cass making the deal with Shiva for the one day of training= one death duel in the future? I've got the duel itself and their first meeting, but not the deal issue.


The deal was the next issue. #9.

----------


## Lorendiac

As long as I'm here, tonight, I'll toss out another cosplay pic I ran across. Stephanie Brown and Casssandra Cain are working together in searching for ruffians to trounce, I gather.

[pireze]SpoilerxBatgirl_02-X3 (1).jpg

----------


## Blight

NYCC Dustin Nguyen sketch for some lucky fan:





By BAM---BAM

Was there any fan questions asked to DC this year at NYCC? I can't seem to find any.

----------


## Randumbz

I miss her  :Frown:

----------


## scary harpy

> I miss her


I do too. 

Perhaps it's better she's not here for now; the new 52 is a mess that is still sorting itself out.

----------


## The Whovian

> I do too. 
> 
> Perhaps it's better she's not here for now; the new 52 is a mess that is still sorting itself out.


Yes. As much as I miss her, I keep thinking that it's probably a good thing that she's not back. Maybe after the big DCU event next year, will somehow get either get a combination of the old DCU mixed with the new 52 and get her back that way, or DC brings back the old DCU altogether. I'd be fine with either one

----------


## Blight

I have this nagging fear she'll appear in the "big event" Bleeding Cool has been hyping up lately that's coming next spring/summer. What doesn't help this paranoia is seeing Adam Beechen's name rumored. It just has me all  :EEK!:  FIVE TIMES IS ENOUGH!! I know he tried his "best" in repairing all the editorial mandated stuff he was forced to write, but.. just anyone but him. Just for another twenty more years. Give her to Fabian who had a good handle on her. Anyone but Beechen. Also Marcus To commissioned Cass:

----------


## orionblue

I would support more of the Batbooks if DC brought back my favorite Bat character:  Cassandra Cain as a member of the Bat family.

'Nuff said.

----------


## heyevaxx

*She's back!* Well, she's back for just 2 issues starting April 2015 based in the pre-Flashpoint/pre-New52 timeline. Oh well, it'll be nice to see Cass if only for 2 brief issues.

Cassandra looks great taking on the giant armored gorilla!  :Smile:  Looks like the Black Bat outfit is being used which is cool since we can see her face.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56990
_... DC Comics' nine-week "Convergence" event series ... announcing 10 two-part miniseries that each give different looks at pre-"Flashpoint" DC Universe heroes -- which means old favorites like Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, Cassandra Cain, ... Barbara Gordon as Oracle... are back on the table in full force._

_BATGIRL
Writer: Alisa Kwitney
Artist: Rick Leonardi and Mark Pennington
After a year in the dome, Stephanie Brown is not sure she wants to be Batgirl again. But when Flashpoint Catman attacks, Red Robin and Black Bat call her back into service._

----------


## The Whovian

> *She's back!* Well, she's back for just 2 issues starting April 2015 based in the pre-Flashpoint/pre-New52 timeline. Oh well, it'll be nice to see Cass if only for 2 brief issues.
> 
> Cassandra looks great taking on the giant armored gorilla!  Looks like the Black Bat outfit is being used which is cool since we can see her face.
> 
> http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=56990
> _... DC Comics' nine-week "Convergence" event series ... announcing 10 two-part miniseries that each give different looks at pre-"Flashpoint" DC Universe heroes -- which means old favorites like Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, Cassandra Cain, ... Barbara Gordon as Oracle... are back on the table in full force._
> 
> _BATGIRL
> Writer: Alisa Kwitney
> ...


Awesome! Can't wait

----------


## Blight

Cass fighting Flashpoint Grodd? Rick back to drawing her again? Cass reunited with not only Steph, but TIM TOO?! Yes please!!

----------


## Malachi

It's awesome news. Looks really interesting. I'm not sure how I will pick it up yet. I normally buy trades or subscribe to comics. Not sure how I'm going to pick up just those 2 issues. Normally i would trade this but seeing the recent news that DC&marvel look at diamond numbers mostly I want to buy these in single issues. Show DC that there's is definitely some love out there for Cass, Steph and Tim =)

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

Kinda sad that this is better than having her back in canon.

----------


## Stormcrow

> FYI for any mobile Injustice players here, they're adding Cass to the roster, and it sounds like she's gonna be a supremely badass card!  Her damage stats are insane!
> 
> Attachment 9999


She looks great, but it was near impossible to win her. Maybe they'll eventually make her available for purchase, but I really wish they would've included her in the main console game.

I'm hoping that with her inclusion in the game along with her appearances in the Batgirl: Futures End issue and the upcoming Convergence mini, DC will move ahead and re-introduce her for good already. Barbara is pretty much established as Batgirl for the foreseeable future, but that name never really fit Cass IMO. That's why I loved her re-branding as Black Bat so much, it allows her to have her own identity. Hopefully DC can still use it given that Dynamite is also using the name. Maybe it could be the name given to her by the League of Assassins, the way _Arrow_ handled it with Canary and the Magician, being trained from birth as a match for Batman.

----------


## Sardorim

Tim, Steph, and Cass together again? Awesome.

And.. That random guy in the background.

I can live with that as long as I get Tim, Steph, and Cass moments and seeing them all together again.

----------


## SOLID MATTIC

I just finished Cassandra Cain's solo comic series and just wanted to say how blown away I am at how amazing the whole thing was. Cassandra has become a favourite character thanks to those 73 issues, her character was intriguing from the start and her interactions with Batman, Barbara and Stephanie were fantastic. I loved how her character really grew throughout the series and eventually to the point of growing past the influences/expectations of those around her both good and bad (Batman/Cain/Barbara/Shiva) to finally finding an identity for herself.

I was wondering whether its worth pursuing the character in further comics, given that I'm told that not all of it is good. This Black Bat identity sounds intriguing but I also heard something about being turned evil with evil drugs for awhile. The solo series ended things really well, any advice on whether I should just leave it there or should I seek out further Cassandra Cain stories?

----------


## Avantre

> I was wondering whether its worth pursuing the character in further comics, given that I'm told that not all of it is good. This Black Bat identity sounds intriguing but I also heard something about being turned evil with evil drugs for awhile. The solo series ended things really well, any advice on whether I should just leave it there or should I seek out further Cassandra Cain stories?


As long as you avoid any Cassandra Cain story written by Adam Beechen, you're mostly okay (especially her appearances in Robin and the Batgirl mini series he made). The Black Bat rename happened after the turning evil bit and most of the Black Bat appearances were positive.

----------


## heyevaxx

@SOLID MATTIC
Awesomesauce on enjoying Batgirl #1-#73 and falling for Cass Cain! She's such a wonderful, layered and complicated character. She's rare for mainstream comics and very rare for DC.

Once you've read all the Cass comics possible, including some of her One Year Later "Evil" Phase, you might want to check out the hilarious Casstoons at Cass-Cult:
Casstoons #1 on the last gallery page - http://cass-cult.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=1920
Casstoons started after One Year Later and was a platform for Cass fans to vent their frustration about DC changing their beloved character. Read from the last gallery page to start at Casstoons #1. They start a little rough but get progressively better. I really only dig the Casstoons artist Espanolbot but he did the majority of the art so I really liked the whole run. There are a *lot* of Casstoons characters which are all conveniently listed here: http://editthis.info/Superdickery/Casstoons

There's a super comprehensive list on Cassandra Cain comics appearances *and* references at the great Cass Cain Mainframe. Note, that this includes comics that just reference Cass, e.g. Batman or somebody says something about her but she's not in the comic.
http://casscain.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Un...rth_Chronology

There are a lot of lists on Tumblr by die hard Cassandra Cain fans. Here's a list derived from Tumble with credit to all those posters with lots of my comments.

*1) PRE SELF-TITLED:* Cassandra's introduction during No Man's Land is required reading. Plus, she has some great adventures with Azrael, especially #61. Her appearance with Catwoman in Gotham City Secret Files is classic. Cass brings Nightwing back to life in Batman Family. Gotham Knights #2 is a great one-shot showing Cassandra's development. 
_Batman #567 
Detective Comics #734 
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 
Azrael: Agent of the Bat #56-#57
Batman Chronicles #18 
Batman #569 
Detective Comics #738 
Robin Vol. 2 #70 
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #124 
Detective Comics #739
Batman: Shadow of the Bat #93 
Azrael: Agent of the Bat #60-#61
Detective Comics #741
Gotham City Secret Files and Origins
Robin Vol. 2 #73 
Batman: Gotham Knights #2 
Ghost/Batgirl #1-#4_ >> this is a real nice team up if you can find it

*2) SELF-TITLED RUN:* so much to Cass to read! Try to get Superboy v3 #85 which shows their team up and her classic face smack of Kon-El when he couldn't shut up. Some of the non-Batgirl issues are small roles or just a cameo. Note that DC First Batgirl/Joker has completely non-canonical dialog in it saying that Babs was against Cass becoming Batgirl (100% wrong according to Detective Comics #734).
_Batgirl #1-#4
Azrael: Agent of the Bat #66 
Young Justice #21 
Batman: Gotham Knights #5 
Batgirl #5-#8
Batgirl Annual #1
Batgirl #9-#12
Robin Vol. 2 #86  
Birds of Prey #27  
Catwoman Vol. 2 #90 
Robin vol. 2 #88
Batgirl #13  
Superboy Vol. 3 #85 
Batgirl #14 
DC First Batgirl/Joker_ >> some really bad, non-canonical stuff
_Robin Vol. 2 #88 
Batgirl #15 
Superboy #85
Batgirl #16-#18
Harley Quinn #10-#12
Batgirl #19  
Batman #594 
Batgirl #20  
Wonder Woman #174-#175_ >> nice cameo
_Supergirl #63
Batgirl #21  
Joker: Last Laugh #3  
Batgirl #22-#23
Robin Vol. 2 #98 
Batgirl #25  
Batman #600 
Batgirl #26-#29
Batgirl Secret Files and Origins
Batman #605 
Batgirl #30-#35  
Batman: Family #6-#8
Batgirl #36-#37
Batman: Gotham Knights #33-#36
Batgirl #38-#41
Nightwing #81
Batgirl #42-#44
JLA #88 
Batgirl #45-#46
Superman/Batman #5 
Batgirl #47-#48
Detective Comics #790 
Batgirl #49-#50
Robin vol. 2 #119
Birds of Prey #61
Batgirl #51-#53
Batman: Gotham Knights #46-#49
City of Light #1-#8
Robin vol. 2 #127-#128
Batgirl #54  
Justice League Elite #1-#12_ >> very dark run
_Detective Comics #797 
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #182 
Batman: Gotham Knights #56 
Batgirl #55  
Batman #631 
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #183 
Batman: Gotham Knights #57 
Batgirl #56 
Batman #632 
Detective Comics #799  
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #184 
Nightwing Vol. 2 #98  
Batgirl #57  
Batman #633 
Batgirl #58  
Robin Vol. 2 #133  
Batgirl #59-#73_

*3) CASSANDRA'S "EVIL" PHASE AFTER ONE YEAR LATER (aka OYL):* Wow, what to say about Cass' Evil phase? It seems that Dan DiDio, DC Comics co-publisher, mandated that Cass take an evil turn after the OYL break and become Tim Drakes nemesis. Theories on Dan's decision include: he only likes characters he knows growing up in the 70s, writing Cass is a pain (layered, nuanced non-sexual comics character) and/or that a disabled woman of color wasn't marketable. Dan has said it was simply a sales issue but that's at least somewhat contradicted by the still decent sales figures for Batgirl late #60s and #70s. In the end, why didn't matter, it was done.
Adam Beechen was tasked with writing Cass' evil turn and boy did he botch it IMO. Cass can suddenly talk in long monologues. She knows Navajo Code and uses it to secretly communicate with Robin despite not being about to write or even read English before OYL! Plus, the rational he gave Cass to turn was weak at best: he dad trained others, not just her, and she was enraged by this. Weak! Anyway, this is all (sadly) canon, so here it is:
_World War III #1-#2_
_Robin Vol2 #148-#151_
_Supergirl Vol5 #13-#14_ >> so stupid it's funny ending but great art
_Robin Vol2 #161-#162_ >> nice art of evil Cass as an assassin
_Teen Titans Vol3 #43-#46_ >> RETCON RETCON RETCON!!!

*4) CASSANDRA'S "RECOVERING" PHASE AFTER BEING "EVIL":* After DC turned Cass evil on top of canceling her self-title, there was a massive outcry and lots of web sites popped up calling for Cass to be restored. So in Team Titans it's revealed that Cass was drugged and controlled by Slade Wilson - that's the ticket! Though it was a poor retcon, our Cass was on her way back. Batgirl volume2 is Beechan's make up for wrecking Cass. It's not great but the last scene with Batman adapting her is very nice and sweet though kind of bitter since she's used less and less then forgotten.
_Batman and the Outsiders Vol2 #2-#9_ >> pretty decent, great art
_Batgirl Vol2 #1-#6_
_Batman and the Outsiders Vol2 #10-#14_ >> pretty decent, great art
_Batman: Battle for the Cowl: The Network #1_
_Batgirl Vol3 #1_ >> she hands off the Batgirl mantel to Steph
_Batgirl Vol3 #6_ >> just a flashback cameo

*5) CASSANDRA AS THE BLACK BAT:* There's not much here. Cass as Black Bat could have been used a lot in Steph's Batgirl, Catwoman/Gotham City Sirens and Batman Inc. But alas no. Snyder wanted Cass to star in Gates of Gotham but editorial said no, it must be a Batman Family team effort. Oh well, one last dig at Cass by the exces/editors. Simone also tried to get Cass in Birds of Prey only to have the bosses cancel it after initially approving. Hopefully, Cass can have another nice, out-of-time appearance early next year.
_Red Robin #17_ >> some good writing and great art
_Red Robin #25_ >> get past the teen rape scenario and this is a nice story, lots of Cass, great art
_Batman Inc #6_ >> cameo
_Batman: Gates of Gotham #1-#5_ >> excellent Cass writing, nice art and a very bittersweet last Cass panel
 :Smile:

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## Malachi

Great post Heyevaxx!

I'll add my own cents to you SOLID MATTIC.

Her turning evil is really really bad comics. It's a new character. A stereotype of the asian dragon lady. She even dresses like one in some comics. In one way I'm thankful to Adam Beechen. If he didn't do it so bad it might have stuck.
Beechen have written much better comics then his Cass ones. Though writing characters turning evil isn't his strong suit, think he did it in Wild Cats too.

Batman and the outsiders where good. A mute Cass during Dixons run. He said he didn't even remember writting some of her solo issues. She was handed to him on Outsiders so Editiorial where making a effort here. After Dixon left it was temporarily renamed to Batgirl and the outsiders. It was ok if my memory serves me correct. Some issues later it was relaunched and I'm not sure but I think said relaunch wasn't a success.

After that she sort of vanished it was later named she was put on the shelf by Editorial. This was likely because Batgirl was going to be relaunched. First they wanted Babs back but somethign happened during her Oracle mini so they went with Steph instead. As stated above I'm not sure why she wasn't featured more in Stephs run. It seemed she was still banned even though she wasn't Batgirl anymore.

Chris Burnham designed a new costume and identity for her in Grant Morrisons Batman Inc but it debuted in Red Robin before said her Inc issue.

Snyder and Higgins a Cass fans and have tried several times to write her. Gats of Gotham started out as a Cass mini but where changed to a Batman family mini. It has been the only chance they have gotten so far. Harper Row is Snyders answer to fill the spot in his run that he wanted Cass to originally fill(though I'm sure Harper has metamorphosed a lot since then).

Several writers have wanted to use Cass but few have gotten the opportunity. People like Simone and Snyder has stated that they where outright nixed on the spot. Even Grant Morrison seems intrigued by her. Why he hasn't used her more is anyone's guess though =)

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## godisawesome

Morrison got told "no" as well, if I remember correctly.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

> Great post Heyevaxx!
> 
> I'll add my own cents to you SOLID MATTIC.
> 
> Her turning evil is really really bad comics. It's a new character. A stereotype of the asian dragon lady. She even dresses like one in some comics. In one way I'm thankful to Adam Beechen. If he didn't do it so bad it might have stuck.
> Beechen have written much better comics then his Cass ones. Though writing characters turning evil isn't his strong suit, think he did it in Wild Cats too.
> 
> Batman and the outsiders where good. A mute Cass during Dixons run. He said he didn't even remember writting some of her solo issues. She was handed to him on Outsiders so Editiorial where making a effort here. After Dixon left it was temporarily renamed to Batgirl and the outsiders. It was ok if my memory serves me correct. Some issues later it was relaunched and I'm not sure but I think said relaunch wasn't a success.
> 
> ...


I like how in Gates of Gotham, Snyder and Higgins pretty much ignore the "Cass turning evil" bit along with her feud with Dick.

And in Li'l Gotham, it seemed like the writers wanted to use Cass, but had to replace her with Katana.

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## Platinius

First off, I love Cassandra and her upbeat attitude

Now I have a question, I remember a story when two female superheroes (who happen to be lesbian) talk about Cass and trying to get her to walk around naked in the house (or something along those lines, the actual conversation was rather stupid, much like two dudes talking about a girl, which given the speakers made it rather funny) and Cass basically walks in, undresses and takes something from the fridge, all the while showing the insane amount of scars on her body much to the shock the two ladies. Does anyone happen to know what issue it is?

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## godisawesome

That's in Outsiders, one of Dixon's issues I believe.

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## Stormcrow

> I like how in Gates of Gotham, Snyder and Higgins pretty much ignore the "Cass turning evil" bit along with her feud with Dick.
> 
> And in Li'l Gotham, it seemed like the writers wanted to use Cass, but had to replace her with Katana.


Yeah, it was ridiculous how they had to shoehorn Katana in there when it was clearly meant to be Cass initially. Not as much as the infamous scene with the Stephanie Brown Halloween costume hair recoloring, though.

Gates of Gotham was great, Trevor McCarthy and Dustin Nguyen draw what is probably my favorite version of her. I wish Snyder and Higgins get to write her again sometime, I loved her interaction with Damian. They have such a similar background and it'd be interesting to see it being explored more.

Li'l Gotham would have been even better if they'd allowed Cass to take what became Katana's role as Damian's partner/antagonist.

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## Platinius

> That's in Outsiders, one of Dixon's issues I believe.


Thanks, it was Batman and the Outsiders Vol 2 #3

I found it, I read it, I had a lot of fun

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## godisawesome

It's sometimes scary/hilarious just how much of the Bat universe Dixon wrote, especially considering his lows were still exceedingly competent and his highs were magnificent pieces of character and world building.

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## Lorendiac

> First off, I love Cassandra and her upbeat attitude
> 
> Now I have a question, I remember a story when two female superheroes (who happen to be lesbian) talk about Cass and trying to get her to walk around naked in the house (or something along those lines, the actual conversation was rather stupid, much like two dudes talking about a girl, which given the speakers made it rather funny) and Cass basically walks in, undresses and takes something from the fridge, all the while showing the insane amount of scars on her body much to the shock the two ladies. Does anyone happen to know what issue it is?


That was "Thunder" and "Grace" in the Outsiders title of the late 2000s, all right. One thing that bothered me about the scene (aside from the gratuitous nudity and all) was the fact that previously, toward the end of her solo title, Cassandra Cain was resurrected in a Lazarus Pit, and I thought that this process was supposed to *completely heal* all old wounds. Including scar tissue! (Ra's al Ghul has been leading an exciting life for centuries, and I don't remember him ever showing lots of scar tissue on those occasions when we see him stripped to the waist, for instance.) 

Incidentally, for many years Black Canary II was supposed to be infertile as the result of terrible injuries, and then she got dunked in a Lazarus Pit, which Ra's assured her would get her ovaries and uterus back in perfect condition again. (And presumably it did. It also restored her Canary Cry superpower, which she had also lost years earlier.) That serves as a decent example of how a nice refreshing dip in a Lazarus Pit _doesn't just_ bring you back to life after you've recently suffered a mortal injury, but also patches up any parts of your body which had been badly damaged and "permanently scarred" _years earlier!_  :Smile:

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## Platinius

Cass also leads exiting life and I wouldn't put it past her to have collected new scars since her resurrection, still wouldn't account for that many

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## Stormcrow

Comicbook.com has an interesting article making a case for *"Why Cassandra Cain Is The True Successor To The Batman Mantle"*.

It mostly contrasts her with Dick and Tim, but doesn't make much of a case against Damian, who would really be her only contender in terms of upbringing.

Still, it makes a lot of interesting points and it's pretty cool to see some love for Cass.

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## TheDarkKnightReturns

> Comicbook.com has an interesting article making a case for *"Why Cassandra Cain Is The True Successor To The Batman Mantle"*.
> 
> It mostly contrasts her with Dick and Tim, but doesn't make much of a case against Damian, who would really be her only contender in terms of upbringing.
> 
> Still, it makes a lot of interesting points and it's pretty cool to see some love for Cass.


Please DC, bring her back.

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## Blight

> Comicbook.com has an interesting article making a case for *"Why Cassandra Cain Is The True Successor To The Batman Mantle"*.
> 
> It mostly contrasts her with Dick and Tim, but doesn't make much of a case against Damian, who would really be her only contender in terms of upbringing.
> 
> Still, it makes a lot of interesting points and it's pretty cool to see some love for Cass.





That is a a nice article and love for Cass there. Only thing missing would be Tim also visualizing of Cass being Batman into reality in Red Robin when the next gen JLA showed up in the Uternet. ... We so need more fan art of that version of Cass.

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## mooch

Come on DC, Cassandra Cain Omnibus (or two) please!  :Smile:

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## Sardorim

> That is a a nice article and love for Cass there. Only thing missing would be Tim also visualizing of Cass being Batman into reality in Red Robin when the next gen JLA showed up in the Uternet. ... We so need more fan art of that version of Cass.


To be fair, Tim never wanted to be Batman.

I can see him being happy with Cass as carrying on the Bat Mantle since they are close and he knows her rather well. Such a role would fit her perfectly.

If anything I could see Tim being happy with being her "Oracle".

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## heyevaxx

*Batgirl v1-59 2005-02 page20* Cass talking to Tim

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## Stormcrow

I was actually able to win the Cassandra Cain Batgirl character in the Injustice mobile game and she's one of the best characters in the game, I'm really happy with how they presented her.

And I really like her costume!

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## Blight

Something an artist named Rainbow Flyer did for me.

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## godisawesome

Here's a redesign I made of Cass's costume. It's not professional by any means, but I like sketching.
image.jpgimage.jpg

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## Sardorim

Tim smiling? I would think that he would be scared as Cass and Steph are best buds and he has awkwardness with both of them.

Especially with Cass at Gates if you interpret the ending between them a certain way.

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## Rogue Star

I just thought I'd confess to the fact that Cassandra's Batgirl comics are the only Bat related comics that I've ever read.  Whoops. I might read the Barbara Gordon series ongoing now... maybe. Cassandra's pretty much my Batgirl though.

Edit : don't get me wrong, I like Barbara still because I grew up with her but Cassandra is the Batgirl that resonated more with me.

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## scary harpy

> Here's a redesign I made of Cass's costume. It's not professional by any means, but I like sketching.
> image.jpgimage.jpg


Pretty good.

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## heyevaxx

*Happy Birthday Cass! part 1 of 3 from Batgirl #33 via Tumblr*

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## heyevaxx

*Happy Birthday Cass! part 2 of 3 from Batgirl #33 via Tumblr*

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## heyevaxx

*Happy Birthday Cass! part 3 of 3 from Batgirl #33 via Tumblr*

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## Black Angel

Did Cass ever get it on with anyone?

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## Agent Z

> Did Cass ever get it on with anyone?


Not to my knowledge. Unless you count fanfic were she gets paired of with Tim or Stephanie.

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## Fuzzy Cactus

> Did Cass ever get it on with anyone?


I think she briefly had a crush on Superboy, but they just stayed friends?

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## Nick Miller

Amazing

thanks heyevaxx!

Great storytelling. SO emotional. thats what is missing from a lot of books. these characters are human.

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## heyevaxx

@Nick Miller
You're very welcome! And I totally agree: Cassandra Cain was emotional and very human. And not just angry or vengeful like most comic book characters. She had so much compassion for others and wanted to stop the kind of suffering her father put her through at all costs.

These pages are classic. She's going there disguised by Babs as a reporter to get info from her dad. Cain is imprisoned for murdering a woman and framing Bruce Wayne for it.

The intensity! Cass tries to ask the questions she came there for but can't and instead asks "Who do you think you are?" Then she explodes through the security glass kicking Cain (a big guy!) off the formerly permanent chair. "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!" Notice Cass is crushing her prop eyeglasses in her left hand as she yells at her dad.

So some prison guards try to stop her and she flies around the room like a whirlwind putting them down. Fantastic action art by Damion Scott!

Then Cass pins Cain against the wall with her fist cocked... she thinks. Then her classic pronouncement: "You kill again... I kill you." She drops him and casually asks when her birthday is. Cain sits there and is so proud. Despite being a murder many times over and a horrible child abuser he loves his daughter. And Cassandra swims away from the prison and collapses crying.

Simply fantastic writing coupled with perfect art. Text thought bubbles? NONE! Lots of droning dialog? NOPE! While both Cass and her dad have fantastical capabilities, they both have very realistic human emotions and a very complicated relationship.

Cass was awesome and even the post-Puckett/Scott era had great moments despite DC's effort to fundamentally change her. I'm hopeful, but not expecting, that DC can at least give us a satisfying flashback (Elseworlds?) with Convergence like they did with the Batgirl Futures End (possible) flash forward. Will Cass ever come back in the current timeline *and* satisfy most of her old fans? Hmmm...

Happy Birthday Cass!

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## Black Angel

> Not to my knowledge. Unless you count fanfic were she gets paired of with Tim or Stephanie.





> I think she briefly had a crush on Superboy, but they just stayed friends?


Oh ok thanks guy

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## godisawesome

Cass's art pretty much always has to be kinetic and emotive. If it isn't, it probably isn't that good for her story.

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## Lorendiac

> I think she briefly had a crush on Superboy, but they just stayed friends?


Yeah, they kissed each other once on a case in Gotham (in an issue of the "Superboy" title of that era), and then in a "Batgirl" issue soon after that, Cassandra seemed to be consciously aware that she was feeling Very Interested in him (as demonstrated by the fact that she hitched a ride on top of a train to get all the way from Gotham to Smallville _just so_ she could see him again!), but in the end they agreed to not take it any further at that time, and just be "friends."

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## Agent Z

If Cass were to return what would you guys think of her showing up in Gotham Academy?

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## Babs

> If Cass were to return what would you guys think of her showing up in Gotham Academy?


That's possible, but since it's been announced that Batman Eternal is getting a 2nd year, i think they could introduce her through that book the same way it introduced Stephanie Brown into the new 52. Infact, considering both Cass and Steph appeared in Futures End, and Batman Eternal introduced Stephanie, i'd think it's probable that they would introduce Cass through this book too.

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## HeWhoSlapsAll

I'm still hoping for a Jason Todd and Cassandra Cain book.

Just imagining Jason attempting to teach her to talk, makes me chuckle a bit.

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## Chickfighter

BatgirlsOfBurnside.jpghttp://msciuto.deviantart.com/art/Batgirls-of-Burnside-508671526

Here's an idea!

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## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Attachment 16908http://msciuto.deviantart.com/art/Batgirls-of-Burnside-508671526
> 
> Here's an idea!


Isn't that kinda redundant w/ Birds of Prey?

I'd rather Stephanie join BoP herself, in a new BoP title with Kane, and Cassandra be Jason's sidekick for a while.

I hope this happens after convergence.

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## Rac7d*

ehh cassandra is too talented to be work with jason

But I do see BOP returning with spoiler, bluebird, Cass, and mabey carrie as base tech support.

they need to stick all those girls somewhere

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## Punisher007

A "young Bat-family members" book could be really interesting.  Tim, Cass, Stephanie, Harper, Carrie, Damian, etc all interacting with each other.  Maybe stick one of the older characters, like maybe Dick, in as a "mentor" and there you go.  In fact, I'm kind of hoping that that's what Eternal "Year Two" ends up being.

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## Babs

> Attachment 16908http://msciuto.deviantart.com/art/Batgirls-of-Burnside-508671526
> 
> Here's an idea!


The idea of them as a team is cool, but not as an all-Batgirl team, and not with Betty Kane. She doesn't really belong in the Batgirl legacy. She was more like precursor who wore a Robin style costume, and was removed and ultimately retconned for being too silly. So even if she historically was the first character in print to be called Bat-Girl, she really wasn't part of the Batgirl legacy. There was no symbolic passing of the mantle, or anything like that, and from CoiE on, Barbara was the first Batgirl.
I'd much prefer Stephanie to stick with her role as Spoiler in the new 52. Not only does her new 52 Spoiler costume look bad-ass awesome, Spoiler herself is a much more unique and original creation than the 3rd girl to be calling herself Batgirl. 
Same goes for Cassandra. She was able to pick up the Batgirl name because at the time it was a vacant position, since the original Batgirl was now paralyzed and evolved into Oracle. But now in the new 52 there is a healthy young Barbara Gordon in the Batgirl role, so there really isn't any reason for anyone else to take up the name, unless they're either a fangirl or a villain. Seeing as how the new 52 de-canonized Tim Drake's history as Robin, and re-wrote it so that he was Red Robin from the start, there shouldn't be much of a problem with doing the same for Cassandra. In fact, i'd see it as a fresh start for the character.

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## Chickfighter

> The idea of them as a team is cool, but not as an all-Batgirl team, and not with Betty Kane. She doesn't really belong in the Batgirl legacy. She was more like precursor who wore a Robin style costume, and was removed and ultimately retconned for being too silly. So even if she historically was the first character in print to be called Bat-Girl, she really wasn't part of the Batgirl legacy. There was no symbolic passing of the mantle, or anything like that, and from CoiE on, Barbara was the first Batgirl.
> I'd much prefer Stephanie to stick with her role as Spoiler in the new 52. Not only does her new 52 Spoiler costume look bad-ass awesome, Spoiler herself is a much more unique and original creation than the 3rd girl to be calling herself Batgirl. 
> Same goes for Cassandra. She was able to pick up the Batgirl name because at the time it was a vacant position, since the original Batgirl was now paralyzed and evolved into Oracle. But now in the new 52 there is a healthy young Barbara Gordon in the Batgirl role, so there really isn't any reason for anyone else to take up the name, unless they're either a fangirl or a villain. Seeing as how the new 52 de-canonized Tim Drake's history as Robin, and re-wrote it so that he was Red Robin from the start, there shouldn't be much of a problem with doing the same for Cassandra. In fact, i'd see it as a fresh start for the character.


Like some of you I'd love to see Steph as Spoiler and Cass as Black Bat or something similar in a new Birds of Prey, perhaps along with Bluebird. Maybe they're all in school together and Black Canary's in a position of some sort at their school. I just thought it was a cute cover and wanted to share.

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## Thirteen

> Attachment 16908http://msciuto.deviantart.com/art/Batgirls-of-Burnside-508671526
> 
> Here's an idea!


Batgirls of Burnside?  I'll take it!  But only for a annual/one-shot ala the "Walk on the Wildside" episode of X-Men:Evolution that featured all the female members going on a Girl Power Crimefighting spree as the Sirens of Bayville...



Otherwise I like my Batgirls to spread the love in different areas of the DCU.

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## Blight

> That's possible, but since it's been announced that Batman Eternal is getting a 2nd year, i think they could introduce her through that book the same way it introduced Stephanie Brown into the new 52. Infact, considering both Cass and Steph appeared in Futures End, and Batman Eternal introduced Stephanie, i'd think it's probable that they would introduce Cass through this book too.


It's a good possibility. However when you have a group calling themselves "the Fist of Cain" over in Grayson and are all about art of death/assassinations well sooner or later I get this feeling they're greatest "being" will turn out to be their greatest failure. Not to mention Dick not wanting to turn her over to Spyral given her talents. Then again, Snyder been trying. Maybe Year 2 will be the year a new 52 version of Cassandra shows up.

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## Vansen

I was only a little interested in Convergence as I saw it as more of a fill in, a money grab, instead of something serious and part of continuity. But when I saw that Cass was in a book my interested was tweaked and then I read this interview: http://comicbook.com/2015/02/13/cove...writer-alisa-/ and suddenly my thoughts on it changed. Check out this quote:

_Interviewer - "Given that you weren't writing at DC at the time, how much prep did you have to do to be kind of on the same page with these characters and where they were when we left them?"

Alisa - "I read everything I could get my hands on  Chuck Dixon Spoiler stories, Bryan Q Miller Batgirl stories, and Fabian Niciezas Red Robin and Cassandra issues. And once Id done that, it seemed obvious to me that the best way to acknowledge all that history was to bring Steph and Cass and Tim back together in my storyline."_

Cass was barely in Bryan Q Miller's Batgirl (and after that first issue thank god she wasn't). She was barely in Red Robin, she maybe had a panel or 3 in it. She really didn't do anything in Red Robin as the core chunk of her part was cut due to Red Robin finishing early due to the New 52 relaunch. So she is basing her Cass on stories that barely had her in it. I just don't understand why DC didn't recommend to her Kelley Puckett's run in Batgirl. It is the run that defined Cass and with digital comics they aren't hard to find any more.

This book is sounding almost like it could be Adam Beechan and Bryan Q Miller-esque where neither did any real homework on Cass. I am definitely keeping away from this book now. If she had said she had read Kelley Puckett or something that had Cass substantially written well in as her basis for Cass then I would be all in.

From reading all the interviews, anyone else want to bet that in the end of the 2 issues it shows Stephanie Brown fighting on par with Cass? I mean seriously, if that happens that puts Stephanie Brown on par with Batman. It would show that Stephanie Brown could beat pre-new 52 Shiva. It would also make Cass' childhood look like a joke, what was the point of her torture and her communication deprivation? After everything that DC have done to Cass none of that would surprise me one bit.

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## Malachi

> I was only a little interested in Convergence as I saw it as more of a fill in, a money grab, instead of something serious and part of continuity. But when I saw that Cass was in a book my interested was tweaked and then I read this interview: http://comicbook.com/2015/02/13/cove...writer-alisa-/ and suddenly my thoughts on it changed. Check out this quote:
> 
> _Interviewer - "Given that you weren't writing at DC at the time, how much prep did you have to do to be kind of on the same page with these characters and where they were when we left them?"
> 
> Alisa - "I read everything I could get my hands on  Chuck Dixon Spoiler stories, Bryan Q Miller Batgirl stories, and Fabian Niciezas Red Robin and Cassandra issues. And once Id done that, it seemed obvious to me that the best way to acknowledge all that history was to bring Steph and Cass and Tim back together in my storyline."_
> 
> Cass was barely in Bryan Q Miller's Batgirl (and after that first issue thank god she wasn't). She was barely in Red Robin, she maybe had a panel or 3 in it. She really didn't do anything in Red Robin as the core chunk of her part was cut due to Red Robin finishing early due to the New 52 relaunch. So she is basing her Cass on stories that barely had her in it. I just don't understand why DC didn't recommend to her Kelley Puckett's run in Batgirl. It is the run that defined Cass and with digital comics they aren't hard to find any more.
> 
> This book is sounding almost like it could be Adam Beechan and Bryan Q Miller-esque where neither did any real homework on Cass. I am definitely keeping away from this book now. If she had said she had read Kelley Puckett or something that had Cass substantially written well in as her basis for Cass then I would be all in.
> ...


If she only read those issues of Cass then she has minimal understanding of the character. It would be close to me writing Suicide Sqaud(I haven't even picked up one issue of all volumes) comic without even checking Rick Flagg on wiki. I would just write him as some generic leader/ex-soldier and I'm sure he's much more than that.

Not one writer or editor would be so clueless. Especially when it's her first DC job. Just look at Beechen, it pretty much burned his chances with DC. This Alisa can't be that reckless.

I hope she has read some issues of Cass original Batgirl run. At least form reading Cass wiki page(takes about 5 min) she will know the general about how she works and more importantly what to avoid.

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## godisawesome

I'd calm down a bit; as you've pointed out, a five minute perusal of Cassandra's wiki page would let you know what to avoid while writing the character. She may not have mentioned Puckett's run because in comparison to Miller's Batgirl and Nicieza's Red Robin, that run is fairly old. If the gist of the Convergence event for the immediate Pre-Flashpoint characters is to hearten back to their last appearances, than those are the appearances you's reference. Even the Dixon reference is more "modern', considering Dixon got to bring Stephanie back.

There's also the possibility that Cassandra's challenges when writing her are quite a bit more blatant than Steph and Tim's; the challenge with her speech disability and visual heavy characterization are right there in her introduction. 

Of course if I'm wrong, then SONUVAGUN!

----------


## Nick Miller

> A "young Bat-family members" book could be really interesting.  Tim, Cass, Stephanie, Harper, Carrie, Damian, etc all interacting with each other.  Maybe stick one of the older characters, like maybe Dick, in as a "mentor" and there you go.  In fact, I'm kind of hoping that that's what Eternal "Year Two" ends up being.


this would be the best!

And Tim getting a new costume. Damn it artists at DC get to work!

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> this would be the best!
> 
> And Tim getting a new costume. Damn it artists at DC get to work!


Love the idea of a team book, and I wouldn't be surprised if we get Cass sooner rather then later. And agree, new costume for Tim please! Also I wouldn't mind three team books, one for all of them, and then two sepreates, one with all the girls (including Betty please) and one with all the boys (including Batwing). 

Cass can be the trainer for Damian at some point. I'd like to see them interact more.

----------


## Lorendiac

I decided to offer another Cassandra Cain cosplay. This is a cosplayer called "tenleid" giving her rendition of Cassandra's "Black Bat" identity.

----------


## godisawesome

Here's an interview on the Batgirl Convergence issue.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...cassandra-cain

It's focused on Steph, apparently, but Cass is supposed to be a major feature of the pair of issues as a key component of the chemistry.

----------


## Celgress

Another character I'm a big fan of, and hope we see more of soon. In all honesty I love the entire Bat Family, with one exception *cough* Damien *cough*.

----------


## Punisher007

I also think that Cass showing up in _Grayson_ could potentially be interesting.  Especially given who her dad is.

----------


## Agent Z

According to The Mary Sue Convergence Batgirl 1 will feature bios on Barbara, Cass and Step 

http://www.themarysue.com/exclusive-...atgirl-1-bios/

----------


## Frontier

> According to The Mary Sue Convergence Batgirl 1 will feature bios on Barbara, Cass and Step 
> 
> http://www.themarysue.com/exclusive-...atgirl-1-bios/


That sounds pretty cool  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Blight

> According to The Mary Sue Convergence Batgirl 1 will feature bios on Barbara, Cass and Step 
> 
> http://www.themarysue.com/exclusive-...atgirl-1-bios/


Huh the link is gone. What's up with that?

----------


## Blight

Also the artist has a print, shirt, poster of this here:

http://www.*********.com/people/theamat

I soooo bought the print of this.

Also Christopher Jones (Young Justice comic) is debuting a Cassandra, Stephanie, and Barbara print at C2E2!!!!

----------


## The Whovian

> 


She looks like she's snarling there. Getting ready to whoop Shiva's butt!

----------


## Agent Z

Just saw the Arkham Knight trailer. I liked it but couldn't help but feel Cass was made for this game.

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## Immortal Weapon

> Just saw the Arkham Knight trailer. I liked it but couldn't help but feel Cass was made for this game.


I feel that Arkham Knight would be the perfect place to debut Cass in the Arkham continuity.

----------


## Frontier

> I feel that Arkham Knight would be the perfect place to debut Cass in the Arkham continuity.


While seeing Nightwing, Robin, and Batman together was awesome, the Bat-Family seemed incomplete without a Batgirl. And with Barbara as Oracle, Cass would make the most sense as the Arkham-verse Batgirl.

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## Immortal Weapon

> While seeing Nightwing, Robin, and Batman together was awesome, the Bat-Family seemed incomplete without a Batgirl. And with Barbara as Oracle, Cass would make the most sense as the Arkham-verse Batgirl.


The plot of Arkham Knight could easily replace her introduction in No Man's Land (to my knowledge didn't happen in the Arkham-verse). She could be an agent of Oracle just like in NML.

----------


## joybeans

I like this Arkham-esque version of her costume (by nebezial).

----------


## Hypo



----------


## The Whovian

> 


yeeeeeeeeeeees!!! Cass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## Blight

> 


Curious. I wonder just how soon? Like June soon? Or later this year soon?

----------


## joybeans

Eternal Year 2 is my guess.

----------


## Jcogginsa

appearently she might be in the new Arkham game

----------


## Stormcrow

> appearently she might be in the new Arkham game


The playable Batgirl in the Season Pass will be Barbara, so no Cass unless she's a side character in the main story somehow.

----------


## Jcogginsa

> The playable Batgirl in the Season Pass will be Barbara, so no Cass unless she's a side character in the main story somehow.


huh, the render didn't look like a red head so i assumed cass

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> The playable Batgirl in the Season Pass will be Barbara, so no Cass unless she's a side character in the main story somehow.


Man, Cass deserves better. I'll even do with a skin or something.

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## Immortal Weapon

> huh, the render didn't look like a red head so i assumed cass


The synopsis for the Batgirl DLC says it's a prequel story so definitely Barbara.

----------


## joybeans

It could just be a prequel to Arkham Knight.

----------


## Kurisu

Yeah, I'm not buying that's Barbara. She's not mentioned by name in any of the statements I've read, the nose, the lips, and the eyes don't match Babs' in the trailers, and the hair isn't even remotely a shade of red.

Still cool if it is Babs, but...

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## Blight

> Yeah, I'm not buying that's Barbara. She's not mentioned by name in any of the statements I've read, the nose, the lips, and the eyes don't match Babs' in the trailers, and the hair isn't even remotely a shade of red.
> 
> Still cool if it is Babs, but...


The costume looks like Babs New 52. But you could say it's Future's End Cassandra. But I'm willing to think it's Barbara just because the new location would be Burnside.

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## Immortal Weapon

> Yeah, I'm not buying that's Barbara. She's not mentioned by name in any of the statements I've read, the nose, the lips, and the eyes don't match Babs' in the trailers, and the hair isn't even remotely a shade of red.
> 
> Still cool if it is Babs, but...


Doesn't mean anything. Vicki Vale is a redhead with long hair in the comics but she's a short haired blonde in the games. Tim is a bald space marine. Rocksteady isn't shy about making minor physical changes.

----------


## billee0918

http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ith-batmanchat

Some exciting Cass news:

"In more definite news, when asked about fan favorite former Batgirl Cassandra Cain, the writer teased, "We have very immediate plans for Cass. Not indefinite, like years away plans, but like very soon plans. Stay tuned." Similarly, Snyder again confirmed the plans for a second year of the weekly seies "Batman Eternal" when asked about he and CApullo's own female addition to the Bat Family. Asked about an origin story for Bluebird Harper Row, Snyder said, "You would see it in season 2 of 'Eternal'...that is, I mean - cough cough- if we do one - #notannouncedyet"

----------


## billee0918

I'll take a team book with Cassandra, Harper and Stephanie.

Wish Cass had a better code name tho...darned if I can think of one tho.

----------


## Smoov-E

> http://www.comicbookresources.com/ar...ith-batmanchat
> 
> Some exciting Cass news:
> 
> "In more definite news, when asked about fan favorite former Batgirl Cassandra Cain, the writer teased, "We have very immediate plans for Cass. Not indefinite, like years away plans, but like very soon plans. Stay tuned." Similarly, Snyder again confirmed the plans for a second year of the weekly seies "Batman Eternal" when asked about he and CApullo's own female addition to the Bat Family. Asked about an origin story for Bluebird Harper Row, Snyder said, "You would see it in season 2 of 'Eternal'...that is, I mean - cough cough- if we do one - #notannouncedyet"



I'll believe it when Cass shows up in print

Been there, heard a writer say "I got plans" before

----------


## joybeans

> Doesn't mean anything. Vicki Vale is a redhead with long hair in the comics but she's a short haired blonde in the games. Tim is a bald space marine. Rocksteady isn't shy about making minor physical changes.


But Babs has already been shown in Arkham Knight as a redhead.

----------


## JaggedFel

> I'll believe it when Cass shows up in print
> 
> Been there, heard a writer say "I got plans" before


Have to agree with u on that not sure why DC hates Cass so much...Is it because they think the League connection takes away from Damian?

----------


## joybeans

Gail Simone says that she's tried to re-introduce Cassandra Cain and Ryan Choi at various times, only to be turned down. My cynical side says that DC doesn't think it could milk the diversity representation enough with Asian characters.

----------


## Predator JP

> But Babs has already been shown in Arkham Knight as a redhead.


yeah, that's the first thing i thought when i saw that pic.
is it Babs? no way, this Batgirl is not redhed and she's already showed up as Oracle.
so is it Steph? naw, this Batgirl isn't blond...so it must be Cass....

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> yeah, that's the first thing i thought when i saw that pic.
> is it Babs? no way, this Batgirl is not redhed and she's already showed up as Oracle.
> so is it Steph? naw, this Batgirl isn't blond...so it must be Cass....


The picture has a filter in it. You can notice the reddish tint in the hair. 

Not to mention that costume is straight-up Barbara's first New 52 costume. All that and with the emphasis that it's a prequel, no way it isn't Barbara.

----------


## joybeans

The costume itself doesn't really say much, as Tim and Jason have had radically altered looks, and might just be giving Barbara's costume to Cass. And it being a prequel could very well mean it's a prequel to the Arkham Knight story.

----------


## hsalf1901

On the original topic I felt that the character development that Cassandra Cain was incredible.  She had no socialization, could not speak, and skills to rival many of the League of Assassins.

Yet with time, help from others and her innate intelligence I doubt there are many comic characters that managed that feat!!

later

bill

----------


## The Whovian

> On the original topic I felt that the character development that Cassandra Cain was incredible.  She had no socialization, could not speak, and skills to rival many of the League of Assassins.
> 
> Yet with time, help from others and her innate intelligence I doubt there are many comic characters that managed that feat!!
> 
> later
> 
> bill


I loved her book, especially in the beginning. It was amazing watching her interact with Shiva. Their fights were epic. I was shocked when DC introduced her and Batman stated that even he couldn't beat Cass in a hand to hand fight. I would never have thought DC would admit something like that, but it was cool. Heck, Cass beat Shiva! *Shiva!*

----------


## EnterDuration

I saw this list of recommendations and wondered if any of you would get specific as to what your favorite Cassandra Cain issues are, preferably complete single-issue stories.

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## The Whovian

> I saw this list of recommendations and wondered if any of you would get specific as to what your favorite Cassandra Cain issues are, preferably complete single-issue stories.


I won't touch on anything outside of her own series or crossovers with Batman like War Games and such (although I highly recommend getting them). So with that, I'm going to recommend these issues:

#1-25 (these first 25 issues by the creative team of Pucket/Scott/Campanella are awesome)
#30-32 is a team-up with Robin and Connor Hawke (geez, I miss him!)
#50 (I'm not going to spoil anything)
#51-53 
#63-73 (another cool story)

Batgirl (2008) 1-6

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## Theycallmebone

New comic reader here, but have really enjoyed what I've been able to find of Cassandra's batgirl, pre-One Year Later especially. Since Snyder says he has plans and not years down but very soon, is there any chance she pops up in Bruce's absence?

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## Laevatein

I want to see Cass back, but I can't help worrying that I'll be disappointed if I actually do.

To use an analogy... a while ago, my mum told me our old house was getting pulled down.  I was tempted to go down the street where it stood and take a look, but I haven't done so yet, because I'm worried that if I look at where it used to be, that will then dominate my memories of the home I grew up in.  Does anyone else feel the same way?

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## scary harpy

> I want to see Cass back, but I can't help worrying that I'll be disappointed if I actually do.
> 
> Does anyone else feel the same way?


Yeah. I imagine many of us do.

We love the character we knew. When the current writers get hold of her, we we love what she becomes?

Scary....very.

----------


## Immortal Weapon

I have no faith in DC's current editorial staff to provide us with the character we loved. They fumbled too many times and shown not to understand what makes her appealing to fans.

----------


## Agent Z

So what non-Bat characters would you guys have loved to see Cass interact with?

----------


## Immortal Weapon

> So what non-Bat characters would you guys have loved to see Cass interact with?


I would have liked to seen Cass interact with Black Canary's adapted daughter Sin. I'm sure those two would have bonded having a similar upbringing.

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## JaggedFel

> I have no faith in DC's current editorial staff to provide us with the character we loved. They fumbled too many times and shown not to understand what makes her appealing to fans.


Indeed. No Faith whatsoever, think we might have crossed into the negative zone

----------


## The Whovian

> I want to see Cass back, but I can't help worrying that I'll be disappointed if I actually do.
> 
> Does anyone else feel the same way?


Agreed, especially after what they did to Tim

----------


## Sardorim

I want the real Cass and Tim back but sadly Convergence is the only place they're at.

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## Immortal Weapon

> I want the real Cass and Tim back but sadly Convergence is the only place they're at.


It'll be nice to have them more than two issues.

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## Theycallmebone

I actually feel like Snyder would do a good job with Cass, and her portrayal (however brief it may have been) in Future's End seemed fairly spot on.

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## joybeans

> I actually feel like Snyder would do a good job with Cass, and her portrayal (however brief it may have been) in Future's End seemed fairly spot on.


That was Simone who wrote the Futures End issue.

Though Snyder did write Gates of Gotham, which featured Cass. IIRC, he originally intended GoG to focus mostly on Cass, but DC got him to write it as a Batfamily team-up instead.

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## Sardorim

Wait, wasn't GoH which pushed a Tim/Cass relationship? I vaguely remember that look she gave Tim at a hotel room.

----------


## Agent Z

A writer on thenerdsofcolor gives his thoughts on Cass 

http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/05/2...batman-mantle/

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## Blight

Huh I'm actually surprised she appeared in the final issue of Convergence, given the lack of appearance since #1.

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## The Whovian

Cass is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## joybeans

> Cass is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Wait, what, where?

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## The Whovian

> Wait, what, where?


According to Newsarama, ALL of the DC's Earths are back in the multiverse and Didio stated that they can now access any character from any Earth to tell stories from.

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## The Cool Thatguy

> According to Newsarama, ALL of the DC's Earths are back in the multiverse and Didio stated that they can now access any character from any Earth to tell stories from.


Yeah, but it's not like she was locked in a vault prior to this. They've always been able to use her, if the editors allowed. And they haven't.

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## Lorendiac

> Cass is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





> Wait, what, where?





> According to Newsarama, ALL of the DC's Earths are back in the multiverse and Didio stated that they can now access any character from any Earth to tell stories from.





> Yeah, but it's not like she was locked in a vault prior to this. They've always been able to use her, if the editors allowed. And they haven't.


I really have to agree with The Cool Thatguy on this one. You shouldn't say "Cass is back!" if all you have to back it up is the vague idea that "There is now an Official Excuse which _might conceivably_ be used in connection with giving Cass a new appearance in a DC comic book . . . at some point in the indefinite future . . . _if we're lucky_ . . . but no one really knows if this is actually going to happen!" 

There is a _huge_ difference between the two! Saying she's back, as if it's _already_ an accomplished _fact_, is highly misleading.

----------


## MidTierHero

> A writer on thenerdsofcolor gives his thoughts on Cass 
> 
> http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/05/2...batman-mantle/


Batman doesn't need someone to take over his mantle. And any character who tries inevitably comes off worse for it. Characters need to cultivate their own identity, not replace other, more popular characters.

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## godisawesome

I do think that Cass holding the grim and gritty but very disciplined Bat as her role model was a unique take on the sidekick idea. The majority of the sidekicks lacked the enthusiastic worshipfulness she seemed to have for him and his style and "teachings," especially at that time in continuity. Dick was focused on forging an identity in his own specific town, Tim was explicitly against becoming Batman, Jason was supposed to be an example of how the life could destroy you, and Batman was in one of his more anti-social interpretations.

Damian was portrayed with a similar worshipfulness, but his is more focused on wanting to inherit his father's dignity and reputation. Really, they actually had some good mom nets foiling each other in GoG, what with Cass not feeling the need to prove herself at all while Damian seemed even more ha,strung by an inferiority complex than usual.

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## Lorendiac

> Batman doesn't need someone to take over his mantle. And any character who tries inevitably comes off worse for it. Characters need to cultivate their own identity, not replace other, more popular characters.


I kinda-sorta agree with you . . . about Batman not needing to _actually_ pass his mantle over to anyone else, I mean . . . but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea for one of his proteges/apprentices to want to be ready to replace him! (In this context, "replacing him" does not necessarily mean "and I will imitate his distinctive personality _in every possible way_ while I'm at it!") 

Let me clarify my point in a Q & A format:

Question: Do I think there ever will be, or ever should be, a day when Bruce Wayne has been "permanently replaced" by someone else as "the New and Official Batman"? (With "permanent" meaning, in effect: "For the next ten years at a stretch, every new issue of every Batman-themed comic book will be featuring this Young Replacement as the one and only *Batman* of the modern world.") 

Answer: *No!* Doesn't matter if the Designated Successor would be Dick, or Jason, or Tim, or Jean Paul, or Cassandra, or Terry McGinnis, or Damian, or "Bruce Junior" (as in John Byrne's "Generations" Elseworlds stories), or someone we've never heard of before. _It just ain't gonna happen!_  :Stick Out Tongue:  (Although if it were Cassandra taking over as the Number One Defender of Gotham City, I would expect her to be using the alias "Bat_woman_" instead of "Bat_man_." But that's just a detail.) 

On the other hand!

Question: Do I think it can work well to have a character being presented, for ten years or more at a stretch in the monthly comic books, as "the young hero who is _obsessively determined_ to be ready, someday, to take over the mantle of the Bat *if* Bruce dies or retires or whatever?" 

Answer: *Yes!* (Heck, back in the Pre-Crisis days, that was pretty much the general expectation regarding Robin/Dick Grayson, and it was sometimes explicitly stated in "Imaginary Stories" or whatever. "If and when Bruce gets too old for this, Dick will -- _by then_ -- be all grown up and fully prepared to continue the family tradition as the new Batman!") 

So if we take that piece at http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/05/2...batman-mantle/ as meaning "here is why Cassandra Cain should be treated respectfully in the comics as The Most Worthy and Dedicated *Potential* Successor to Bruce Wayne/Batman, even though _it's never actually going to happen_ that he dies or retires 'permanently,'" then I think the writer makes some good points!

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## Punisher007

I think that Terry pulls it off the best because of the setting.  They set BB like 40+ years in the future, where Bruce is an old man with a heart condition.  So all of a sudden, a "successor" Batman makes much more sense.  Also, as ROTJ pointed out, Terry was NEVER Bruce's "sidekick," he was always meant to be a replacement.

----------


## MidTierHero

> \Question: Do I think it can work well to have a character being presented, for ten years or more at a stretch in the monthly comic books, as "the young hero who is _obsessively determined_ to be ready, someday, to take over the mantle of the Bat *if* Bruce dies or retires or whatever?" 
> 
> Answer: *Yes!*


Sure it can be done, but it stunts and limits whatever character you're doing it to. Instead of becoming their own person with their own identity, they'll always be in the shadow of Batman. They'll never be successful on their own.

I agree with Punisher007 that Terry is an exception because he's in a different continuity.




> So if we take that piece at http://thenerdsofcolor.org/2015/05/2...batman-mantle/ as meaning "here is why Cassandra Cain should be treated respectfully in the comics as The Most Worthy and Dedicated *Potential* Successor to Bruce Wayne/Batman, even though _it's never actually going to happen_ that he dies or retires 'permanently,'" then I think the writer makes some good points!


And even if we're setting aside the damage it does to the character, there are others who are just as or more suitable to taking up the cowl. it would be a tie between Pre-Nu52 Tim and Dick. Cass doesn't have the scientific background or detective skills to be a credible replacement.

----------


## Lorendiac

> Sure it can be done, but it stunts and limits whatever character you're doing it to. Instead of becoming their own person with their own identity, they'll always be in the shadow of Batman. They'll never be successful on their own.


I mentioned that for many years, Pre-Crisis, Dick was commonly seen as "Batman's Heir Apparent." 

Something I didn't mention last night was I _really like_ the way Marv Wolfman and George Perez, in the "New Teen Titans" comics of the 1980s, started showing Dick Grayson finally making a strong, conscious effort to get *out* of Batman's shadow! (This was one of the reasons he switched to being "Nightwing" during "The Judas Contract," for instance. He was tired of people always mentioning "Robin" right after the words "_Batman and--_"!) 

In fact, somewhere on my hard drive, I still have an unfinished draft of a big piece that was supposed to be a lengthy discussion of various "highs" and "lows" in Dick Grayson's attempts to define himself as _something other than_ "a second-rate junior edition of The Mighty Batman!" (For instance, my position is that one of the *worst* things that ever happened to him was the time in the 1990s when DC gave him his own solo title, set in Bludhaven, in which he absolutely came across as being "Batman Lite -- _smaller and less capable_ in several ways, and working hard to try to clean up a _much smaller_ corrupt city since he just isn't man enough to handle anything as big as Gotham all by himself!" 

In other words -- I think that once upon a time, for many years (back around the Silver Age in particular) it was a *good* idea to have Dick be positioned as "the guy everyone takes for granted should _someday_ replace Bruce as Batman." I also think that in the early 1980s it was a *good* idea to start moving away from all that for a change of pace! (For one thing, other Robins were finally coming along in that decade, so it was _no longer_ a case of "Dick is the only guy who could _possibly_ qualify as a worthy successor at some future date, since he's the only one who has received tons of training from Bruce in the Batcave."




> And even if we're setting aside the damage it does to the character, there are others who are just as or more suitable to taking up the cowl. it would be a tie between Pre-Nu52 Tim and Dick. Cass doesn't have the scientific background or detective skills to be a credible replacement.


Well, I said the author of that piece had made "some good points." I _didn't_ say that he had actually convinced me that as long as Cassandra is around to inherit the mantle of the Bat if Bruce dies/retires, _nobody else_ will be needed to help handle things in Gotham! In fact, as near as I can recall, the thought was going through my mind that someday it might be cute to have Cass and Tim working together to guard Gotham City, with the cute, delicate-looking East Asian woman being the one who provided most of the _brawn_ (fighting prowess, that is), and the tall, broad-shouldered macho white guy being the one who provided most of the _brains._ (Not quite the way you'd normally expect it to work.  :Wink:  )

Although, where detective skills are concerned, a good writer could get a lot of mileage out of the fact that Cass is basically a walking, talking lie detector, as long as she can *see* the body language of the murder suspect who is lying through his teeth. Of course, her ability to read body language is not "acceptable evidence in court," so it could often work this way:

Cass and Tim arrive on the scene. They question the suspects. After the first ten minutes, Cass *knows* whodunit. But she can't "prove" it. So she tells Tim, and then he does the Sherlock Holmes act, digging up background information and searching for subtle bits of physical evidence, until he finally has a good case to support what he and Cass already knew to be true _before_ he started doing conventional detective work! 

(But I didn't mention those thoughts last night, because I was in a hurry to wrap up my post so I could go to bed.)

----------


## The Whovian

I agree 100% with that article that Cass would be the perfect successor to Batman. I think the others could do it, but not as successfully as Cass.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I agree 100% with that article that Cass would be the perfect successor to Batman. I think the others could do it, but not as successfully as Cass.


In many ways, she's an inverse Batman. She enjoyed the love of a parents (albeit an incredibly abusive one), she was raise in an abnormal environment for the formative years of her life, and where he seeks to prevent a tragedy like he suffered, she seeks to redeem herself.

Honestly, of all his sidekicks, I'd say that Cass is far and away the most like him (not a good thing emotionally, but characterwise), and is probably the one who could best fit into any movie. It's kinda hard to overlook the 'throwing young angry kids in front of bullets' these days, but with Cass, Batman could easily pull her back to society while she fights alongside him. 

Just a thought.

----------


## SpiderWing20

I haven't read much of Cass, but I hear nothing but great things about her. Can anyone recommend any stories

----------


## Batarang

Read her own series (Batgirl 2000 first series is about Cassandra Cain Batgirl) the art was not that good but i loved the stories  :Smile:  And story names were so cool like ''Silent Runing'' ''A Knight Alone'' ''Death Wish'' ''Fists of Fury'' ''Destruction's Daughter''  :Big Grin:  some of them that i can remember... aren't they super cool names ? i read Cassandra Batgirl at least 10 years ago or so... (wow time flies by) it seems i kind of start to forget about stories... i think it's time for a reread if i can find the trades.

----------


## Malachi

Damion Scott did a future version of Cass being the Batman with Tim in his Solo comic. It's a fun read and I recommend it  :Smile: 

And I think that it works as a logical and respectful idea to who should be the next Batman. No one can be the next Batman solo because Bruce is one of a kind. To divide it up in a brain and brawn version works. The fun part with Tim and Cass is that neither only brings one part to the equation.

Tt would be fun but sadly neither Cass nor Tim seems to be high on DC's love list  :Frown:

----------


## The Whovian

> I haven't read much of Cass, but I hear nothing but great things about her. Can anyone recommend any stories


I won't touch on anything outside of her own series or crossovers with Batman like War Games and such (although I highly recommend getting them). So with that, I'm going to recommend these issues:

#1-25 (these first 25 issues by the creative team of Pucket/Scott/Campanella are awesome)
#30-32 is a team-up with Robin and Connor Hawke (geez, I miss him!)
#50 (I'm not going to spoil anything)
#51-53 
#63-73 (another cool story)

Batgirl (2008) 1-6

----------


## Lorendiac

> Damion Scott did a future version of Cass being the Batman with Tim in his Solo comic. It's a fun read and I recommend it 
> 
> And I think that it works as a logical and respectful idea to who should be the next Batman. No one can be the next Batman solo because Bruce is one of a kind. To divide it up in a brain and brawn version works. The fun part with Tim and Cass is that neither only brings one part to the equation.
> 
> Tt would be fun but sadly neither Cass nor Tim seems to be high on DC's love list


One thing about that -- the way you say "Cass being the Batman with Tim," you make it sound as if they were _sharing the name_ of "Batman." As I understand it, Cass was still "Batgirl" in that comic, and Tim had somehow inherited the use of the name "Batman," but they worked together as a tight-knit partnership. That's not the same thing as the two of them arriving at a crime scene and saying in unison, "Greetings, citizens. *We* are . . . Batman!"  :Smile:

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I've always been a fan of Tim and Cass together (not romantically though), they have a really great brains/brawn dynamic. I've long thought you could add Steph (the heart/balls) and have a fantastic team book.

----------


## The Whovian

> I've always been a fan of Tim and Cass together (not romantically though), they have a really great brains/brawn dynamic. I've long thought you could add Steph (the heart/balls) and have a fantastic team book.


I'd settle for just having the pre-Flashpoint Cass back. But yeah, a book with those three would be awesome!

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I'd settle for just having the pre-Flashpoint Cass back. But yeah, a book with those three would be awesome!


At this point would it really be possible? I feel like at this point it would be easier to reintroduce her. Perhaps as Shiva's younger sister, a carefully developed "perfect" assassin who decides to fight for the bat cause with Steph and Tim's assistance.

----------


## Malachi

> One thing about that -- the way you say "Cass being the Batman with Tim," you make it sound as if they were _sharing the name_ of "Batman." As I understand it, Cass was still "Batgirl" in that comic, and Tim had somehow inherited the use of the name "Batman," but they worked together as a tight-knit partnership. That's not the same thing as the two of them arriving at a crime scene and saying in unison, "Greetings, citizens. *We* are . . . Batman!"


Well English isn't my first language. Subtleties are hard to capture sometimes. I meant that they where Batman for all it's intents without actually calling themselves Batman or operating as some sort of composite being.

Did Cass call herself Batgirl? I thought it was Batwoman in that story.

I liked the story and the concept. Showing us that Tim and Cass together complement each other in a way no other batheroes do.

----------


## The Whovian

> At this point would it really be possible? I feel like at this point it would be easier to reintroduce her. Perhaps as Shiva's younger sister, a carefully developed "perfect" assassin who decides to fight for the bat cause with Steph and Tim's assistance.


Well, with DC having the multiverse back they can literally tell any stories with any characters that have ever appeared in the DCU. If someone like Geoff Johns walked into DC's editorial offices tomorrow with a good pitch for a pre-Flashpoint book starring Cass, DC would jump all over it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Well, with DC having the multiverse back they can literally tell any stories with any characters that have ever appeared in the DCU. If someone like Geoff Johns walked into DC's editorial offices tomorrow with a good pitch for a pre-Flashpoint book starring Cass, DC would jump all over it.


How likely do you think that is though? 

I think the only big DC guy who could possibly pitch Cass would be Snyder, likely as a centerpiece (sort of like Steph) in Eternal part deux.

Most of all though, I think she'll be more likely to stick around and have more stories if she's part of whatever the "main" bat verse is.

----------


## The Whovian

> How likely do you think that is though? 
> 
> I think the only big DC guy who could possibly pitch Cass would be Snyder, likely as a centerpiece (sort of like Steph) in Eternal part deux.
> 
> Most of all though, I think she'll be more likely to stick around and have more stories if she's part of whatever the "main" bat verse is.


Right now today, it's not likely. But in 6 months or a year? Maybe. It doesn't have to be Snyder. Any good writer that DC trusts with great pitches will get a book. And DC didn't bring the multiverse back to NOT use all of those characters. They will at some point. Fan favorites like Wally will probably be first though

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Right now today, it's not likely. But in 6 months or a year? Maybe. It doesn't have to be Snyder. Any good writer that DC trusts with great pitches will get a book. And DC didn't bring the multiverse back to NOT use all of those characters. They will at some point. Fan favorites like Wally will probably be first though


Admittedly I have no idea how the "anything goes" nature of the current multiverse will actually work in execution. If I can get pre52 Steph, Tim, and Cass back that is definitely preferable. 

We'll have to see how it goes. Right now I'm being realistic I guess, and I'm not sure if DC is just saying anything's possible to keep fans happy.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Right now today, it's not likely. But in 6 months or a year? Maybe. It doesn't have to be Snyder. Any good writer that DC trusts with great pitches will get a book. And DC didn't bring the multiverse back to NOT use all of those characters. They will at some point. Fan favorites like Wally will probably be first though


Isn't Wally back in Flash?

----------


## Blight



----------


## Airtrap

Cass.jpg

Yesterday this character appeared in Robin. Son of Batman

She is called Nobody II and is the daughter of Morgan Ducard. Ducard was one of Bruce Wayne friends and a mentor and a assassin.

So a assassin friend ob Bruce has a highly trained teenage daughter with short black hair (that's looks vaguely asian but that could be the art style from Gleason).

My theory is that she is Cassrandra Ducard our new Cass, we already know that Scott Snyder said she would reappear and there a changes obviously. New parents was almost given, Lady Shiva is too young to have a teenage daughter and David Cain hasn't appear but Morgan Ducard was in the first arc of Batman and Robin. Also she is not mute, she speaks in the comic.

It's just a theory but realistically how many teenage assassins with short black hair will be running around in the DCU? Or it could be a fake out

----------


## The Whovian

> Cass.jpg
> 
> Yesterday this character appeared in Robin. Son of Batman
> 
> She is called Nobody II and is the daughter of Morgan Ducard. Ducard was one of Bruce Wayne friends and a mentor and a assassin.
> 
> So a assassin friend ob Bruce has a highly trained teenage daughter with short black hair (that's looks vaguely asian but that could be the art style from Gleason).
> 
> My theory is that she is Cassrandra Ducard our new Cass, we already know that Scott Snyder said she would reappear and there a changes obviously. New parents was almost given, Lady Shiva is too young to have a teenage daughter and David Cain hasn't appear but Morgan Ducard was in the first arc of Batman and Robin. Also she is not mute, she speaks in the comic.
> ...


That would be a new twist on the character. I still want the real Cass back though  :Frown:

----------


## joybeans

> Cass.jpg
> 
> Yesterday this character appeared in Robin. Son of Batman
> 
> She is called Nobody II and is the daughter of Morgan Ducard. Ducard was one of Bruce Wayne friends and a mentor and a assassin.
> 
> So a assassin friend ob Bruce has a highly trained teenage daughter with short black hair (that's looks vaguely asian but that could be the art style from Gleason).
> 
> My theory is that she is Cassrandra Ducard our new Cass, we already know that Scott Snyder said she would reappear and there a changes obviously. New parents was almost given, Lady Shiva is too young to have a teenage daughter and David Cain hasn't appear but Morgan Ducard was in the first arc of Batman and Robin. Also she is not mute, she speaks in the comic.
> ...

----------


## Stormcrow

> Cass.jpg
> 
> Yesterday this character appeared in Robin. Son of Batman
> 
> She is called Nobody II and is the daughter of Morgan Ducard. Ducard was one of Bruce Wayne friends and a mentor and a assassin.
> 
> So a assassin friend ob Bruce has a highly trained teenage daughter with short black hair (that's looks vaguely asian but that could be the art style from Gleason).
> 
> My theory is that she is Cassrandra Ducard our new Cass, we already know that Scott Snyder said she would reappear and there a changes obviously. New parents was almost given, Lady Shiva is too young to have a teenage daughter and David Cain hasn't appear but Morgan Ducard was in the first arc of Batman and Robin. Also she is not mute, she speaks in the comic.
> ...


The latest solicitation reveals that her name is Maya, so probably not the case. Seeing Cass and Damian together again would've been great, though.

----------


## Chickfighter

> 


Thanks for sharing that one. Very cool!

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> The latest solicitation reveals that her name is Maya, so probably not the case. Seeing Cass and Damian together again would've been great, though.


*breathes a sigh of relief*

We dodged a bullet there.

----------


## joybeans

Hey

http://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Cain...dp/1401260721/

----------


## Shimbo

> Hey
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Cain...dp/1401260721/


Oh shit. This pleases me haha.

----------


## Blight

> Hey
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Cassandra-Cain...dp/1401260721/


I hope that's better page quality and in order ala Harley trades they did recently.

----------


## Lorendiac

> I hope that's better page quality and in order ala Harley trades they did recently.


Yeah, it's kind of disappointing to see the Amazon listing doesn't even bother to mention how many pages it has or which back issues it is reprinting.

----------


## Knight of DC

> Yeah, it's kind of disappointing to see the Amazon listing doesn't even bother to mention how many pages it has or which back issues it is reprinting.


Well, it's brand new to Amazon. It usually takes a bit before the information comes in. If it's anything like the Nightwing/NTT/Robin/e.t.c reprints, probably be about 250 ish pages.

----------


## Lorendiac

> Well, it's brand new to Amazon. It usually takes a bit before the information comes in. If it's anything like the Nightwing/NTT/Robin/e.t.c reprints, probably be about 250 ish pages.


I don't spend much time studying "newly posted for pre-order" stuff on Amazon. When I'm over there, I'm usually looking for a specific thing that I can order right here and now (such as an old book by an author I've just recently stumbled across). But it seems to me that it would make more sense to not even post a new listing until you are ready to provide _such_ basic information such as "how many pages will you be getting for your hard-earned money if you order this?" and "if this is a reprint volume, what is it reprinting?"

----------


## godisawesome

She's coming back!

Man oh man, I hope they write a better character arc for Cass then they did for Steph and Harper in Eternal. Those two basically just split up Steph's old plotline from the Chuck Dixon Robin days: Steph was trying to sabotage her father and taking forever to do anything, while Harper was the precocious and stubborn new comer with a flirty rapport with Tim. And they both moved along at a snail's pace in terms of story.

And they'd better have her interact meaningfully with multiple characters. I want to see Tim be intimidated and a little awestruck, I want to see Damin posturing around her, and I want to see them define the rest of the Batfamily's interactions with her.

----------


## Stormcrow

I wonder if it will be as Black Bat or if she'll have a new identity, I don't know if that name has any problems due to the Dynamite book. It fits her really well, so I'm hoping she gets to keep it.

Would she still be Shiva's daughter? She now has a history with Dick so that fits with what's been revealed, but I thought she was way younger this time around.

----------


## joybeans

I think Shiva is supposed to be Dick's "contemporary", which would put them close in age. So I doubt Cass would be Shiva's daughter this time around. But then again, I'd be fine if they completely retconned Lady Shiva.

----------


## Agent Z

> I think Shiva is supposed to be Dick's "contemporary", which would put them close in age. So I doubt Cass would be Shiva's daughter this time around. But then again, I'd be fine if they completely retconned Lady Shiva.


With the story over continuity claims DC is making, that may be possible.

----------


## Punisher007

Honestly her being Lady Shiva's daughter wasn't THAT important in the grand scheme of things (her being David Cain's daughter was much more so).  So it's not really needed.  They could make her Lady Shiva's sister, or niece, or something.

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

*there's always dna splicing or artificial aging ala damian if they still wanna go with the shiva's daughter origin*

----------


## JaggedFel

Ill believe it when I read it.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Ill believe it when I read it.


Same. How many times have they said they have 'plans'?

More than that, I look at how they've butchered easy concepts like Terry Sloan and Lobo, and cringe. 

If they bring Cass back, and get her right? Then I'll celebrate. Until then, well, fool me once, shame on me. Constantly lie, lie and lie, well, I won't believe you.

----------


## heyevaxx

Cass is back, yay! That being said, I hope they get it right or at least they don't do some stupid OYL thing with her. 

Who knows what they'll do with her now but I hope she still has her motion based precognition, blinding speed, and best-for-a-normal-human martial arts ability. I'm sure they'll make her all or part Asian but I really hope they give her the disabilities she had before. Her speaking issue and not being able to read were integral parts to her character and keys to her being different than every other female, Asian, martial artist.

I'd rather they reintroduce Cass with a story focused just on her. Also, without a videotaped tearful confession that benching Cass was wrong from Dan DiDio while he's hooked up to a lie detector, it's hard to know what's really going on. Maybe Cass will co-star in this 26 issue run and then only show up a few times a year.

The CBR article announcing Robin War doesn't say much about Cass, just 2 mentions. But on the upside, Scott Snyder's tweet was a big plus:
Scott Snyder ‏@Ssnyder1835 11:52 AM - 10 Jul 2015
_Also, excited to finally get to say, major star of BATMAN AND ROBIN ETERNAL is Cass Cain._

We'll see.

All of that follows is based on Pre52 Cass and contains some meta-comments about the long thread on the Robin War announcement. I piled this all in the Cass thread since it's all about Cass and not really Robin War stuff.

* Her bullet dodging is not only based on shot timing like Bruce, Selina, etc but it's also dodging after the shot is fired. She dodged a sniper shot with her back turned if I recall correctly.

* Bruce one shotting Wondie is Plot Induced Stupidity at it's best. Something that was just done to serve a story with no reasonable believability given each character. I love Batman and he is an awesome non-super-powered fighter but he can't put Wonder Woman down in a normal fight.

* Cass in Pre52 was likely the best non-super-powered DC fighter, better on average than Shiva, Batman, and Deathstroke. Over at the ComicVine Battles sub-forum there are 100s of pages hashing this out in nerdtastic detail.

* Cassandra Cain *appeared* meta-human due to her precog and speed but she was not a meta-human since she lacked the metagene. A bunch of shadowy federal agents video taped her dodging their agents' bullets before she beat their secret agent butts. Then they tested her and ... no metagene.

from Batgirl v1 #14 2001-05:

----------


## joybeans

I think Snyder is a big fan of Cass. He wanted Gates of Gotham to be Cass-centric, and he's wanted to bring Cass into the New 52 before.

----------


## petrefax

Im happy to hear the news about Cass being featured more prominently.  James Tynion also said that Cass has been one of his favorites as well.

"This is a character that, for me at least, I have loved for my entire comic reading life," Tynion told press. "We have the opportunity to bring her back, in a very, very central role." Tynion said that Cassandra Cain will be on of three main characters in the story, along with Dick Grayson and Harper Row."

----------


## Lorendiac

> Honestly her being Lady Shiva's daughter wasn't THAT important in the grand scheme of things (her being David Cain's daughter was much more so).  So it's not really needed.  They could make her Lady Shiva's sister, or niece, or something.


I would go further than that: "In the grand scheme of things, there was _never_ any need for her to be the biological daughter of Lady Shiva or David Cain or any other hard-hitting character we had ever heard of before!" 

The originally stated premise for how Cassandra became what she was (by the time we met her in her late teens) went this way: 

"Her skills at 'fighting' and 'reading people's body language' are strictly the result of being a test subject to see what happens when you take a normal baby girl and raise her in a strictly-controlled environment without any knowledge of spoken or written language. This means the portions of her brain that would normally devote themselves to 'language skills' can be prompted to devote themselves to something else instead."

To me, that whole experiment only makes sense if you start out with a _typical_ baby, essentially selected at random, who _doesn't have_ "one of the world's greatest martial artists" or "an extremely dedicated assassin" in her family tree. Because if she does have such outstanding ancestors, then this could seriously skew the results by giving her a "head start" in terms of developing the necessary hand-eye coordination, reaction time, etc., to let her do much better than average in learning the things David Cain wanted to teach her in her formative years. 

So that's where they should have left it: "Once upon a time, Cain somehow acquired a cute newborn baby girl, somewhere in the Far East, and went to a lot of trouble to try to raise her to be an even more gifted assassin than himself -- by using a psychological theory which placed *all* the emphasis on 'childhood environment' instead of on 'genetic heredity.'"

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I would go further than that: "In the grand scheme of things, there was _never_ any need for her to be the biological daughter of Lady Shiva or David Cain or any other hard-hitting character we had ever heard of before!" 
> 
> The originally stated premise for how Cassandra became what she was (by the time we met her in her late teens) went this way: 
> 
> "Her skills at 'fighting' and 'reading people's body language' are strictly the result of being a test subject to see what happens when you take a normal baby girl and raise her in a strictly-controlled environment without any knowledge of spoken or written language. This means the portions of her brain that would normally devote themselves to 'language skills' can be prompted to devote themselves to something else instead."
> 
> To me, that whole experiment only makes sense if you start out with a _typical_ baby, essentially selected at random, who _doesn't have_ "one of the world's greatest martial artists" or "an extremely dedicated assassin" in her family tree. Because if she does have such outstanding ancestors, then this could seriously skew the results by giving her a "head start" in terms of developing the necessary hand-eye coordination, reaction time, etc., to let her do much better than average in learning the things David Cain wanted to teach her in her formative years. 
> 
> So that's where they should have left it: "Once upon a time, Cain somehow acquired a cute newborn baby girl, somewhere in the Far East, and went to a lot of trouble to try to raise her to be an even more gifted assassin than himself -- by using a psychological theory which placed *all* the emphasis on 'childhood environment' instead of on 'genetic heredity.'"


Perhaps, but I like the contrast of Cass fighting both nature and nurture, as well as the contrast with Bruce, in that her parent was (amazingly) abusive yet she still loves him.

----------


## Lorendiac

> Perhaps, but I like the contrast of Cass fighting both nature and nurture, as well as the contrast with Bruce, in that her parent was (amazingly) abusive yet she still loves him.


Frankly, I never got the impression that it was literally "her nature" (i.e. programmed into her genetic heritage) to be a cold-blooded professional assassin. But after we learned that David Cain was not just her father-figure, but her biological male parent as well, I felt this suggested that when he started the experiment of raising her to concentrate on body language and combat skills, he was kinda _hoping_ that being his natural-born daughter would, in fact, give her a head start in that direction -- but obviously it didn't work out that way!  :Big Grin:  I don't think she was ever rebelling against "the assassin gene lurking within my cells" -- just against the evil expectations of the man who gave her what passed for "nurture" in his skewed view of how to raise a kid properly. 

As to the contrast between Cain and Bruce -- I feel a sharp contrast between her abusive "first father-figure" and her more justice-oriented "second father-figure" can be developed and exploited just fine without there being the slightest need for either man to actually be a close biological relative of the poor girl.

----------


## Lorendiac

By the way, here's something I ran across: a picture of a nice cosplay of Cassandra Cain in her "Black Bat" phase:

CI_55707_1330862282.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

So, you guys prefer a smaller, more archetypically accepted-for-sidekicks domino mask, or some kind of throwback to her Batgirl cowl?

Personally, I'm hoping for some variation on her cowl, kind of like this (sorry for the image's orientation):image.jpg

----------


## Kurisu

I'd be very disappointed if her entire head wasn't covered. Cass's stitched cowl is iconic imo.

----------


## joybeans

What about something like this:

----------


## Theycallmebone

Finally. It's about time!

----------


## godisawesome

> What about something like this:


A solid sheathe mask would look cool. I will say it has some disadvantages, though. The old cloth mask from her Batgril days was portrayed as extremely expressive, something a solid one wouldn't be. Though chances are that the mask's solidity would change from artist to artist, like Red Hood's helmet.

----------


## HeWhoSlapsAll

> Frankly, I never got the impression that it was literally "her nature" (i.e. programmed into her genetic heritage) to be a cold-blooded professional assassin. But after we learned that David Cain was not just her father-figure, but her biological male parent as well, I felt this suggested that when he started the experiment of raising her to concentrate on body language and combat skills, he was kinda _hoping_ that being his natural-born daughter would, in fact, give her a head start in that direction -- but obviously it didn't work out that way!  I don't think she was ever rebelling against "the assassin gene lurking within my cells" -- just against the evil expectations of the man who gave her what passed for "nurture" in his skewed view of how to raise a kid properly. 
> 
> As to the contrast between Cain and Bruce -- I feel a sharp contrast between her abusive "first father-figure" and her more justice-oriented "second father-figure" can be developed and exploited just fine without there being the slightest need for either man to actually be a close biological relative of the poor girl.


How would you feel about a mentor/teacher relationship with Jason, as her mentor? I feel it would be a lot more interesting seeing her being brought up with someone is the complete opposite to both Bruce, and David, in that Jason is not the controlling, obsessive, and dominating, presence that those men are. There's not really any expectations she has to live up to, and she would be have far more freedom to express herself, as she would learn to become more and more of a person. 

There's also the aspect of  very troubled youth having to be responsible for an even more damaged youth. Seeing Jason, a person who doesn't even know what a functional family even remotely looks like, having to play big brother/young father to someone who came from an abusive home, where she couldn't have an identity, would be awesome to see.

----------


## godisawesome

Eh, I do t know about having Jason "mentor" her. I kind of feel that role should be limited to Batman and Babs.

Associated with as part of a hilarious buddy cop routine? Certainly. My only trepidation there comes from an aversion to seeing a further separation of my generation of Batcharacters. I have a little bit of fear that Batman and Robin Eternal will follow in the footsteps of Eternal in wasting time keeping one of my favorite characters separate from their traditional partners, like how Spoiler was stuck by her lonesome for the longest time while Harper went around doing a poor man's copy of Steph's story.

Ideally, I want to have Cass meet the entire family early on and have major interactions with all of them.

----------


## joybeans

> BATMAN AND ROBIN ETERNAL #1
> Story and script by JAMES TYNION IV and SCOTT SNYDER
> Art and cover by TONY S. DANIEL
> 1:50 Variant cover by MIKEL JANIN
> Blank variant cover
> On sale OCTOBER 7 • 40 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T
> Retailers: This issue will ship with three covers. Please see the order form for details.
> It’s here at last—the sequel to the blockbuster weekly series BATMAN ETERNAL!
> Five years ago, Batman and Robin worked the most disturbing case of their crimefighting careers—bringing down the organization of the ultimate human trafficker, the mysterious woman known only as Mother. At the time, Dick Grayson never quite understood the scope of that case, but now its darkest secrets are coming back to haunt him and everyone else who ever worked with Batman! With Bruce Wayne now lost to them, Dick and all his allies are out in the cold! Who can they trust? Is someone among them not who they say they are? *And who is the deadly, silent young woman in black who’s come to Gotham City looking for Batman?*
> Prepare yourself for six months of international intrigue, twists and turns, and new additions to the world of Batman and Robin, from showrunners James Tynion IV and Scott Snyder, and writers Tim Seeley, Steve Orlando, Genevieve Valentine, Ed Brisson, and Jackson Lanzing & Collin Kelley!


The solicit text is the same for all four issues.

----------


## Punisher007

So the question is, is she there to fight/kill him, or to help/join him?  Also I hope that we re-established the Cass/Steph friendship.  I really liked it and seeing it again in the *Convergence* issues just made me miss it all the more.

----------


## Airtrap

> So the question is, is she there to fight/kill him, or to help/join him?  Also I hope that we re-established the Cass/Steph friendship.  I really liked it and seeing it again in the *Convergence* issues just made me miss it all the more.


At the beginning almost certainly to fight/kill and by the end of the series to help, that seems like the most obvious arc for her.

----------


## godisawesome

Oh, I really hope the "lethal" description is hyperbole. So much of what made Cass awesome in her book was the break between her skills and her reluctance to allow anyone to die at all. Some would say that a Cass who was ever comfortable with killing goes against the character's core personality and selling point. I mean, the idea before Beechen proved he could write a really bad story, was that Cass was so innocent of death as a child that she ripped a man's throat out without knowing it would kill him, then "read" his emotions and pain as he died, getting traumatized in the process.

----------


## Stormcrow

Sounds like a back to basics approach with Cass, really escited for her comeback.

As for her looking for Batman, I've been thinking a good way to reintroduce her would be for her to have been trained from birth as a match for Batman. The Black Bat monicker could be her League of Assassins name in the style of _Arrow_. Looking forward to see how it's handled!

----------


## heyevaxx

So happy for Cass' return to current continuity!

Now, I wonder: who is the "Puckett" for this new realization of Cass? Is it Snyder or Tynion?

I'd rather it be the award-winning, premiere-title writing Snyder over his younger protégé. I recall Snyder pitching for Cass to be featured in Gates of Gother but Dankor, I mean, editorial shot him down. He must have finally broken through DiDio's resistance. Also, Dan must be sick of having to get asked how can he want a more diverse DC when his top benched character is a young woman of color with communication disabilities. Even if Tynion ends up doing most of the the Cass heavy lift, it should be ok with Snyder looking over his shoulder. Just as long as Tynion doesn't go full Beechen if Snyder moves on.

Despite my hoping for a Cass that's close to the old, pre-OYL days, I'm steeling myself for changes. Despite some differences, I hope they get her core qualities right:
* incredible hand to hand fighter, as good or better than Batman, Slade, etc.
* body reading that gives her combat precognition and lie detecting
* a tortured past that makes her completely against killing
* deep empathy for anyone suffering, especially children and even "bad" guys
* some kind of speaking and reading disabilities
* strong relationships with other women (E.g. Babs, Steph, Shiva, etc)

Possible, acceptable changes:
* new parents: I've read Shiva is too young now and there's no David Cain (yet)
* dating/sexuality: in the spirit of the 'to the extreme' nature of the New52, I bet they'll have her date/hook up
* others?

I fear they'll remove or lower her hand to hand and/or precog. I'm even more worried about them making her more violent and accepting of killing with less focus on her old empathetic nature and defense of the young and suffering.

We'll see. At least we're finally getting Cassie back in the normal timeline. I can't wait!

PS - It appears DC has moved the release of "Cassandra Cain: Batgirl Vol. 1 Paperback" from February 23 2016 to January 26 2016!
Why is that great?
It's Cassandra's birthday!!!
Maybe DC is finally coming around  :Smile: 
Credit to the-owlknight for this good news.

Cassandra Cain: Batgirl Vol. 1 Paperback – January 26, 2016 by Kelley Puckett (Author)

*Cassandra Cain Birthday January 26 from Batgirl vol1-33 200212.png*

----------


## Stormcrow

January 26? Wow, someone is really paying attention to Cass!

----------


## Punisher007

> So happy for Cass' return to current continuity!
> 
> Now, I wonder: who is the "Puckett" for this new realization of Cass? Is it Snyder or Tynion?
> 
> I'd rather it be the award-winning, premiere-title writing Snyder over his younger protégé. I recall Snyder pitching for Cass to be featured in Gates of Gother but Dankor, I mean, editorial shot him down. He must have finally broken through DiDio's resistance. Also, Dan must be sick of having to get asked how can he want a more diverse DC when his top benched character is a young woman of color with communication disabilities. Even if Tynion ends up doing most of the the Cass heavy lift, it should be ok with Snyder looking over his shoulder. Just as long as Tynion doesn't go full Beechen if Snyder moves on.
> 
> Despite my hoping for a Cass that's close to the old, pre-OYL days, I'm steeling myself for changes. Despite some differences, I hope they get her core qualities right:
> * incredible hand to hand fighter, as good or better than Batman, Slade, etc.
> * body reading that gives her combat precognition and lie detecting
> ...


I have a confession, I'd be cool with Cass dating as well.  I've shipped her and Steph for years and Snyder kind of sold me on Tim/Cass in _Gates of Gotham_ as well.  And I know that multiple Bat-writers have said that they wanted to use her since the New-52 began, but kept getting told no by the higher-ups.

----------


## Laevatein

Her birthday is Australia Day!

So... that means Cass is an Aussie?

----------


## K. Jones

Stoked for the return of Cassandra. I do hope she's the most amazing hand-to-hand combatant, but I also hope nobody has her trumping any of her kung-fu peers if they've got a major weight-class advantage. But some Joe on the street with some bulk but no training? Hell yeah! Let her wreck the dude. Like Spoiler I suspect they'll skip right ahead to something of the Black Bat persona.

----------


## The Whovian

> Stoked for the return of Cassandra. I do hope she's the most amazing hand-to-hand combatant, but I also hope nobody has her trumping any of her kung-fu peers if they've got a major weight-class advantage. But some Joe on the street with some bulk but no training? Hell yeah! Let her wreck the dude. Like Spoiler I suspect they'll skip right ahead to something of the Black Bat persona.


What peers? Just curious

----------


## Frontier

> Stoked for the return of Cassandra. I do hope she's the most amazing hand-to-hand combatant, but I also hope nobody has her trumping any of her kung-fu peers if they've got a major weight-class advantage. But some Joe on the street with some bulk but no training? Hell yeah! Let her wreck the dude. Like Spoiler I suspect they'll skip right ahead to something of the Black Bat persona.


Like Shiva specifically? Who I imagine will probably factor into Robin:Eternal if they're keeping Cass' heritage relatively intact.

----------


## AAXL98

Can you guys help me out please?

I have the TPB's but should I read them as volumes? Because 39 Issues are not collected in the Volumes. So should I ignore the missing issues and just read Vol. 1-6?

Thanks

----------


## K. Jones

> What peers? Just curious


Shiva was usually depicted as somewhat bigger than the young, dainty Cass, but over the years since the 70s she's become less of that kind of amazonian dragon-lady archetype and softened a bit, and in the New 52 she's not that physically imposing even if she's still the amazing fighter. So that's a tough call. And I think Black Canary should be able to beat her.

Bruce was the main one I was thinking of, and Dick Grayson second, as far as normal human martial artists are concerned. And I guess if Richard Dragon turns up alive someday. It speaks pretty highly of my Cassandra love that I considered Bruce & Dick her only real peers, but frankly I'm pretty sure she'll wipe the floor with Selina, Babs, Damian, Tim, or even Jason, which means you know, your bottom tier kids like Harper, Steph ... just thoroughly trounced. Trounced. And trounced some more.

Batwoman will be an interesting scenario. Batwoman is tough as hell and a brutal, graceful brawler. But is she fast enough? Maybe not. But she might be nasty enough.

Mostly I just don't want to see Bruce Wayne or Dick Grayson hit with the Worf-Effect. Not even to bolster Cass's rep.

----------


## heyevaxx

As for how good a fighter the upcoming Cass will be and if she'll be better/worse/same as Bruce and Dick, who knows. I certainly hope she will be the best normal human hand to hand fighter in DC. Period.

As for pre-New52, Cass fought Batman to a stand still in Batgirl #50. And once she got her precog back from her mom after that meta messed up her mind, Bruce couldn't touch her. To repeat that, she told Bruce as Batman to hit her and her could not. After several tries.

Another muscle-ish skilled fighter, Deathstroke, could never beat Cass. They fought 3 times and they were draws with Cass or Slade looking a little better depending on the fight.

As for Dick, well, I know he's an excellent fighter and around Selina in acrobatics but he couldn't beat Cass pre-New52. In Batgirl volume 2 he confronts Cassie in the Batcave and kind of embarrasses himself. Later, they fought in I think it was The Network and they both landed blows. But he seemed to be going all out while Cass was just doing enough to keep the talking going.

Cass and Batwoman never fought but there's no way she'd beat Cass. In a straight up fight, no surprise or gadgets or Plot Induced Stupidity: Cass would look at Batwoman, know her opening moves, dodge them as she closes the distance, and then put BW down with normal hits or a nerve strike. I really can't imagine how BW being as difficult as pre-52 Deathstroke or Batman or Shiva.

Cass has certainly in pre-New52 put down big, strong fighters. And meta-humans too. And a huge alien one time that was screwing up Superboy. In addition to her precognition and meta like speed, she knows and can expertly deliver nerve strikes that will stop any sized human. I remember a thug almost shooting at Cassie so that he'd likely have hit a fellow thug. She was so enraged at his disregard for his comrade she stopped the guys heart for a few seconds... and then, tap, started it back up. Bats was so pissed.  :Smile: 

Anyway, I'm totally with you on not wanting Cass to be established as the supremo fighter by embarrassing Bats or Dick. Like what they did to Selina in Eternal with Penny 2: one successful dodge and then whack! Selina is down. Nuts to that! Catwoman has always been a good tier2 fighter but TPTB wanted to quickly promote Penny 2 as a tough fighter. Blech.

Wow, this is great! Talking about Cass when she's really coming back! Wu-who!

----------


## Master X

Just have her as INC member Black Bat, that Bruce or whoever takes an extra interest in, then take the story from there. Is ANY of INC even canon anymore...?

----------


## Stormcrow

> Just have her as INC member Black Bat, that Bruce or whoever takes an extra interest in, then take the story from there. Is ANY of INC even canon anymore...?


Most of Batman Inc. should still be canon except for the appearances of Cass, Steph and Babs in volume one.

----------


## Nick Miller

What if she is Batman's daughter?

----------


## joybeans

How many illegitimate assassin-raised children must Bruce have.

----------


## Celgress

> How many illegitimate assassin-raised children must Bruce have.


LMAO indeed one is already too many

----------


## Blight

> How many illegitimate assassin-raised children must Bruce have.


That quote Amanda Waller once said in JLU Epilogue springs to mind. Though I think she'll have ties to the Fist of Cain cult. So it ties into Grayson, but also be the reason that brings him back into the Batboks. I think that's why Seeley was playing coy on why her new origin can't be talked about or even her new design. Because, the tattoo would be the first clue. Though I am curious when they'll show off her new design. Will they wait until October or surprise us like they did with Stephanie and have her appear way before (like Stephanie did in Batman #28).

----------


## gwhh

What issue is this from?

----------


## The Whovian

> What issue is this from?


Batgirl #73, the final issue

----------


## K. Jones

Gotta love a run that ends with the Rocky II ending.

Wait ... I don't actually know if that's the last page or not. I just sort of assumed, knowing Cass and Shiva's coming up against each other a couple times and the "who will win?" that went into it that it feels a lot like Rocky/Apollo back-and-forth.

----------


## godisawesome

No, you actually see the full fight. It's still pretty epic.

I've actually got that TPB, and the first and second from that series. I'm trying to build up my graphic novel collection for my high school classroom as alternative reading material to kids who think novels are dumb. Of course, if they find themselves enjoying her stuff, I'll show them her premier in one of my No Man's Land volumes, and if they like my No Man's Land volumes, they'll be helpless to withstand my recommending the Greg Rucka novelization of the entire crossovers!

 :Wink:  Mwahahahaha!

They'll learn to enjoy reading yet!

----------


## joybeans

Wish that novelization was available on Kindle

----------


## Samurai Jack

Batgirl is being reprinted next year!

http://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Vol-1-...+Silent+Knight

I've wanted to read, and own, Cassandra Cain's Batgirl run, so I'll be buying that for sure when it comes out.

The price is great too, for the first 8 issues.

----------


## Carabas

> Batgirl is being reprinted next year!
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-Vol-1-...+Silent+Knight
> 
> I've wanted to read, and own, Cassandra Cain's Batgirl run, so I'll be buying that for sure when it comes out.
> 
> The price is great too, for the first 8 issues.


Preordered...

Here's hoping it actually comes out.
I preordered vol. 2 of Ostrander's Suicide Squad when it appeared on Amazon and it never came out. Not enough preorders perhaps...

----------


## Hypo

Courtesy of FHIZ:

----------


## Badou

Much better than her old Black Bat costume. Looks very League of Assassins-esque.

----------


## godisawesome

Not bad, for a hopefully prototype costume. Don't get me wrong, I like its cut, trim and coloring. But it still looks very generic. And the hood doesn't really have the same dynamic look that her previous head covering have had, like the full face mask, the lower mouth one, or the Bat mask.

She needs some good, fairly simplistic branding. Otherwise, she's going to look more like an Image character.

----------


## Samurai Jack

That's a pretty nice cover. Really looking forward to Cassandra's role in Batman and Robin Eternal.

----------


## Carabas

> Much better than her old Black Bat costume. Looks very League of Assassins-esque.


Meh. No version of Cass should ever wher someting League of Assassins-esque.

----------


## Badou

> Meh. No version of Cass should ever wher someting League of Assassins-esque.


Given her family connection to them it isn't like she is that far removed from it.

----------


## batsgrayson

I'm trying to see if she looks Asian... Hmm, maybe.

----------


## DurararaFTW

Not a fan of those gold arcs on her torso don't go anywhere or start anywhere. stuff like that's on the nu52 Robin costume too, just feels like they didn't have any ideas and the outfit would be too plain otherwise. Other then that I quite like it.

----------


## Carabas

> Given her family connection to them it isn't like she is that far removed from it.


She left them when she was 8.
Bruce Wayne has a closer family connection to the League Of Assassins.

----------


## The Whovian

> Courtesy of FHIZ:


OH YEAH!!

10 char

----------


## Badou

> She left them when she was 8.
> Bruce Wayne has a closer family connection to the League Of Assassins.


Not in the New 52.

----------


## K. Jones

I like (not love, but like) the new Cass costume for two reasons. One, it's all black with some minor yellow highlights.

But two, because it's going to look smashingly coordinated with Steph's costume.

----------


## Flash Gordon

Still going to greatly miss her strong ties to Bruce in NML and what not.

Would have loved her to be found and taken in by Bruce himself.

----------


## Laevatein

So is #3 going to be her first appearance in the series?

----------


## Carabas

> Not in the New 52.


AH, Cass-In-Name-Only is back then?

----------


## Stormcrow

> Courtesy of FHIZ:


Looks good, I like the assassin getup but I'm expecting an actual costume eventually.

----------


## Nick Miller

> I'm trying to see if she looks Asian... Hmm, maybe.


Im gonna say no.   It still looks good. 

NEEDS MOAR ASIAN

----------


## Theycallmebone

Cass is back and completely disarming Grayson. Lovely!

----------


## Carabas

Okay, reading those two preview pages, she does act and sound more like Cass than she has since her ongoing series ended.

----------


## Punisher007

Hmm, I like her costume.  As a "initial" one, it's pretty good (and it'd contrast with Steph's nicely when they finally meet up).  Of course she should get a redesign when she joins the Bat-family proper.  *spoilers:*
 Oh and it's good to see that her fighting prowess is still intact it would seem.  She took down Dick pretty easily. 
*end of spoilers*

----------


## The Whovian

So, just read B&RE #1 and it was so cool to see Cass back. I'm glad she is still a superior martial artist. 

I'm wondering though, and this is pure speculation on my part. What if DC writes this new 52 Cass as Batman's daughter that he had with Shiva? Perhaps Shiva is "mother".

----------


## joybeans

> So, just read B&RE #1 and it was so cool to see Cass back. I'm glad she is still a superior martial artist. 
> 
> I'm wondering though, and this is pure speculation on my part. What if DC writes this new 52 Cass as Batman's daughter that he had with Shiva? Perhaps Shiva is "mother".


Shiva is like Dick's age, so I doubt it.

----------


## The Whovian

> Shiva is like Dick's age, so I doubt it.


Are you sure? How do we know?

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Are you sure? How do we know?


Not sure, we don't "know" anything about the peripheral characters. Cassandra could be Shiva's mom now too, it's just unlikely. It'd be a waste to throw away the work done with Shiva's character, good or bad, for just a retread of a relationship with a character, only featured in a book where Shiva definitely won't appear.

----------


## joybeans

> Are you sure? How do we know?


Tom DeFalco says that they were both teenagers when they met: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/08...ightwing-13-14 

On the other hand, it's Tom DeFalco.

----------


## The Whovian

> Tom DeFalco says that they were both teenagers when they met: http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/08...ightwing-13-14 
> 
> On the other hand, it's Tom DeFalco.


But until it's actually written in a book, we really don't know. We don't know hardly anything about this new Cass

----------


## joybeans

Still, it might be too soon for yet another lovechild between Bruce and an assassin.

----------


## DurararaFTW

> But until it's actually written in a book, we really don't know. We don't know hardly anything about this new Cass


Just that she's listed among orphans who parents are supposedly killed by Mother's crownies and Lady Shiva, if nothing else, seems to be alive.

----------


## joybeans

> But until it's actually written in a book, we really don't know. We don't know hardly anything about this new Cass


It is written in a book after all. It's Tom DeFalco, but here you go.

----------


## godisawesome

Okay, forgive me for being the English teacher I'm employed as, but her response there is ambiguously worded in such a way that it doesn't clearly agree with Nightwing's supposition.

Plus it was a bad comic and a weaponized ponytail shouldn't count as "work done with the character." The stuff Dixon, O'Neill, and Simone did was work done on the character.

And what do you guys think of the theory on the B&R:E thread that Cass is going to be revealed as a secret apprentice Batman tried to put on the right path some time in the past? I actually like it.

----------


## OWL45

That would be cool and leaves the store open.

----------


## joybeans

> Okay, forgive me for being the English teacher I'm employed as, but her response there is ambiguously worded in such a way that it doesn't clearly agree with Nightwing's supposition.
> 
> Plus it was a bad comic and a weaponized ponytail shouldn't count as "work done with the character." The stuff Dixon, O'Neill, and Simone did was work done on the character.
> 
> And what do you guys think of the theory on the B&R:E thread that Cass is going to be revealed as a secret apprentice Batman tried to put on the right path some time in the past? I actually like it.


One of the creepy possessed kids told Dick that Batman "threw [him] away" and "upgraded to the new model". My guess is that Cass is that "new model" that Bruce rescued in secret, presumably after Dick left as Nightwing.

----------


## The Whovian

> It is written in a book after all. It's Tom DeFalco, but here you go.


Thanks. I misread his post and thought he said Cass was Dick's age

----------


## Rac7d*

Does anyone know how cases got her body reading ability and how it works
The closest thing I have seen to it was Blossom from PPG

Also I JSUT understood her name meaning foreteller, and she can perceive people movements lol

----------


## godisawesome

If you're new, the original idea behind Cass's skills wa Stuart her father David raised her without any verbal input, instead focusing from birth on physical combat. As a result, Cass's brain was wired to the point where the language sections of her brain were focused on interpreting body language. She later had this changed a bit, so she could talk laconically and just barely read but could still read body language.

Currently, we don't know for the new version of her.

I did love how they displayed it here. Those were actually great POV shots, especially on the specific muscle clusters that could be read.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> One of the creepy possessed kids told Dick that Batman "threw [him] away" and "upgraded to the new model". My guess is that Cass is that "new model" that Bruce rescued in secret, presumably after Dick left as Nightwing.


I really like where this is going. I hope they don't mess up this concept (assuming at least part of this theory is correct), hopefully they have Dick accept her as one of the family (he is their leader now), and maybe we can get a brother-sister relationship between Dick and Cass (Dick has a couple brothers, no real sisters unless they push Donna enough. Plus, Dick talks a lot, Cass barely talks, and if written write, I bet it could be hilarious).

----------


## DurararaFTW

> Okay, forgive me for being the English teacher I'm employed as, but her response there is ambiguously worded in such a way that it doesn't clearly agree with Nightwing's supposition.


Yeah, she doesn't agree with Nightwing, who is the one wondering about it in the first place. She hides her face, she builds up a reputation, both can be used to deceive. How people gather from this that she also artificially deaged herself a year or twenty I do not understand.




> Plus it was a bad comic and a weaponized ponytail shouldn't count as "work done with the character." The stuff Dixon, O'Neill, and Simone did was work done on the character.


But what you are suggesting is that all of it is thrown out for the sake of work done with Shiva in this comic. Which is nothing.




> And what do you guys think of the theory on the B&R:E thread that Cass is going to be revealed as a secret apprentice Batman tried to put on the right path some time in the past? I actually like it.


I'm a bit tired of Batman's unneccesary secrets for that he is immediately remorseful about when someone else reveals it to the Batfamily for him.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> It is written in a book after all. It's Tom DeFalco, but here you go.


I love how Nightwing's clunky dialogue assures us that Shiva cannot possibly be over thirty. 

Really dodged a bullet!

*cough*

----------


## RedQueen

Maybe they'll have Shiva as Cass's older sister maybe. Maybe a half sister, and they share the same mother.

----------


## godisawesome

> Yeah, she doesn't agree with Nightwing, who is the one wondering about it in the first place. She hides her face, she builds up a reputation, both can be used to deceive. How people gather from this that she also artificially deaged herself a year or twenty I do not understand.
> 
> 
> 
> *But what you are suggesting is that all of it is thrown out for the sake of work done with Shiva in this comic. Which is nothing.*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a bit tired of Batman's unneccesary secrets for that he is immediately remorseful about when someone else reveals it to the Batfamily for him.


Eh, it's more like I'm arguing that no writer should have to follow this dictate unless they want to. Right now, it's still her most important appearance, and besides the age supposition, there's still plenty of area to develop her some more. Nothing new has happened in B&R:E for the character; I was however saying that I think making her Cassandra's mother, particularly in the actually kind of intriguing way that was handled in the last few issues of Cass's run as Batgirl, seems like it has more interesting implications than what we wound up getting via DeFalco, who I actually respect, being made editorial's hatchet man.

Though I really don't need Shiva to be Cass's mother. I like the idea and the way it was executed, but it isn't really needed. I do kinds want Shiva to take back that place as the combination powerful threat/excellent teacher schtick she had in the 2000s, what with still being a ruthless adrenaline junkie of an assassin while simultaneously training a Robin, a Batgirl, and retraining Batman himself. It made her a fun wild card, and I think made her nickname more appropriate, since she was "creating" heroes while also "destroying" them.

Now, I'm just hoping we get to see the original 90's generation of Bat family members spend serious panel time together. Steph and Tim had like one page of interaction in Eternal; I hope we see Tim being utterly amazed and maybe even intimidated by Cass's skills here, and there'd be nothing wrong with sticking Spoiler in it too.

----------


## Rac7d*

> If you're new, the original idea behind Cass's skills wa Stuart her father David raised her without any verbal input, instead focusing from birth on physical combat. As a result, Cass's brain was wired to the point where the language sections of her brain were focused on interpreting body language. She later had this changed a bit, so she could talk laconically and just barely read but could still read body language.
> 
> Currently, we don't know for the new version of her.
> 
> I did love how they displayed it here. Those were actually great POV shots, especially on the specific muscle clusters that could be read.


Oh I am new cass, but her fighting ability is legend
Though I guess I picture it working like this

----------


## scary harpy

> Maybe they'll have Shiva as Cass's older sister maybe. Maybe a half sister, and they share the same mother.


What about Shiva's older sister? Maybe she's Cassandra's mother.

----------


## heyevaxx

Discussion continued from (Spoiler) Has Arrived in "Batman & Robin: Eternal" -- But Why?



> ... because there's enough evidence to suggest either case, but she's faster than a bullet, that much is a fact, actually it was even showed on Batgirl #34 she (literally) out-raced a bullet, and on Batgirl annual #1 Cass moved as a blur, indicating that if she's moving at her fastest she can't be visible to the human eye.


So Cassie's bullet dodging is some combination of body reading, peak human speed, and maybe experience in how people use guns in fire fights, sniping, etc. But I really need to see you argue, with scans, that "she's faster than a bullet." I looked at both issues you referenced and am unclear on how she outruns a bullet or she moved as a blur.

Can you post scans if you get time and point out her bullet racing and blurred movement? Sorry I'm being dense.




> ...people get angry, because these kinds of feats make their favourite characters look lame, but at the same time their not as ridiculous as it may sound, many other so called "street-levelers" perform many of the same feats: Black Panther, Daredevil, Captain America, Deathstroke, Batman, etc, from time to time, now, we can alaways ignore it, although i don't, at least not stuff that happens consistently, and Cassandra's speed was shown to be over the top, on a basis.


"Black Panther, Daredevil, Captain America, Deathstroke, Batman" >> all guys.

Was there ever a top street-leveler or any comic book fighter that was:
1. female
2. as popular as Cassandra Cain (e.g. the early 2000s)

I think her being a young female who's not huge and muscley rankles many comic fans.

----------


## The Whovian

> So Cassie's bullet dodging is some combination of body reading, peak human speed, and maybe experience in how people use guns in fire fights, sniping, etc. But I really need to see you argue, with scans, that "she's faster than a bullet." I looked at both issues you referenced and am unclear on how she outruns a bullet or she moved as a blur.
> 
> Can you post scans if you get time and point out her bullet racing and blurred movement? Sorry I'm being dense.


Here's just one example:

----------


## Carabas

> Here's just one example:


Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.

----------


## The Whovian

> Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.


Actually, the text does support the art. The man narrating the story says (about Cass) "But she turned around and *waited for them to shoot*." And in the panels, you can see that the bullets are already fired at her _before_ she moves out of the way.

----------


## heyevaxx

@Dark Knight1047
Thanks, I know those pages very, very well and would never argue against them in any way. 

But I hadn't thought about the text you pointed out and what it implies. If she "turned around and waited for them to shoot" and then dodged. She may know exactly where the bullet will go based on her body reading, but the dodging is pure speed. Amazing!

But I'm really curious about Batgirl #34 showing her out-racing a bullet and in Batgirl Annual #1 her moving as a blur.



> she's faster than a bullet, that much is a fact, actually it was even showed on Batgirl #34 she (literally) out-raced a bullet
> and
> on Batgirl annual #1 Cass moved as a blur, indicating that if she's moving at her fastest she can't be visible to the human eye.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Cass is among my 5 favourite DC characters of all time, but I feel strongly that you can't always take superhero art literally, especially if it's in a style that is short on realism and high on exaggeration. Especially when the text explicitly says she's not superhuman in speed.


Re: Cass and superhuman speed, while she's not a meta-human or an alien, Cassandra Cain *displayed* superhuman qualities, in particular speed.

The analysis by 2 gov't agents and a gov't scientist from Batgirl #14 are pretty amazing:
* Super-speed up about 4.2
* Super-strength just under 2.6
* Serotonin level is off the charts, unique blood chemistry

Agent1: Calm down, John. She's meta-human, that's why.
Scientist: No. She's not. No metagene. I ran it twice.
Agent1: Are you nuts? Look at the tape, John. She's Bruce Lee on crack.
Agent2: Jim-- You're sure you've got her clocked at metahuman speed, right? Jim?
Agent1: Well... her individual moves are borderline human. It's the aggregate speed that's metahuman.

----------


## The Whovian

> Re: Cass and superhuman speed, while she's not a meta-human or an alien, Cassandra Cain *displayed* superhuman qualities, in particular speed.
> 
> The analysis by 2 gov't agents and a gov't scientist from Batgirl #14 are pretty amazing:
> * Super-speed up about 4.2
> * Super-strength just under 2.6
> * Serotonin level is off the charts, unique blood chemistry
> 
> Agent1: Calm down, John. She's meta-human, that's why.
> Scientist: No. She's not. No metagene. I ran it twice.
> ...


This was the page I was going to post as well, but after digging through 13 issues and not remembering what issue it was actually from, I gave up. Guess I should have looked through one more.  :Smile: 

But yeah, this page explains it perfectly.

----------


## The Whovian

> @Dark Knight1047
> Thanks, I know those pages very, very well and would never argue against them in any way. 
> 
> But I hadn't thought about the text you pointed out and what it implies. If she "But she turned around and waited for them to shoot" and then dodged. She may know exactly where the bullet will go based on her body reading, but the dodging is pure speed. Amazing!
> 
> But I'm really curious about Batgirl #34 showing her out-racing a bullet and in Batgirl Annual #1 her moving as a blur.


I think those two instances the artists were using creative licenses rather than what she's actually supposed to be doing. In the Annual, she looks like she's the Flash and we all know she isn't. It's just the artist.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

DC has always had this thing where if trained to truly insane levels - as in, past even Batman - the characters could pull off stuff past Batman's own capacity.  Karate Kid being a stellar example of that.  We also have stuff like Constantine Drakon's speed (not a metahuman, far beyond 'peak human' in speed), some feats of Richard Dragon back in the day, etc.  

Cass, in her old series, just continued that trend with the bullet-timing.  She has other completely ludicrous speedfeats that back it up - for example, in one of her issues she tosses a Batarang at a guy about to shoot a woman (who is something like 20+ feet from her), THEN realizes after she has already thrown the batarang that it's not going to make it in time, THEN sprints forward, outrunning her own Batarang, and takes the bullet.

In another scene, close to the end of her series and under Gabrych's writing, she basically dances around a group of League of Assassin members she is protecting, collecting shuriken out of the air with her hands.  Shuriken, I note, thrown at the League members from three different directions, from ambush.  She snags a handful of them, and the League members have enough time to say 'huh?'

For another speed (and precision) scene, when a Joker-ized Shadowthief throws shuriken at herself, Oracle, and Steph, Cass waits until the shuriken are a couple of inches from all of their faces (with a little smile on her face), then catches the stars by sticking her thumb, forefinger, and middle finger through one shuriken apiece.  Same hand.  

There's a time (Batgirl Annual) where she and Batman surprise someone in a corner apartment.  That person jumps out the window and runs away along the ledge.  Batman heads for that window to follow.  Cass jumps out the window in the OTHER exterior wall of the corner room, runs around the corner (on the ledge), past the window _from which Batman is still exiting_, and continues the pursuit.  

Her old series is full of meta-level speed stuff if one looks for it.

----------


## Galerion

Well Im not much of a DC reader but as soon as I read that Batman & Robin Eternal is bringing back Cassandra Cain I had to check it out and so far I really like it. Will definitely stay on my pull list and I hope to see more Cassandra awesomeness  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> Well Im not much of a DC reader but as soon as I read that Batman & Robin Eternal is bringing back Cassandra Cain I had to check it out and so far I really like it. Will definitely stay on my pull list and I hope to see more Cassandra awesomeness


Yep. She may not be the "old" Cass that we all love, but so far she has been presented as a very highly skilled martial artist who is above everyone she has fought so far.

----------


## Galerion

> Yep. She may not be the "old" Cass that we all love, but so far she has been presented as a very highly skilled martial artist who is above everyone she has fought so far.


While Im definitely not a guru when it comes to her I get the feeling this seems to be a back-to-the-roots approach though. I mean the only word she said so far was "Mother".

----------


## gwangung

> Yep. She may not be the "old" Cass that we all love, but so far she has been presented as a very highly skilled martial artist who is above everyone she has fought so far.


She's at least in the general vicinity, which is good.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

Anyone have any thoughts about Cass' reintro thus far?

Surprised that she doesn't apparently have any scars, but that may change

----------


## The Whovian

> Anyone have any thoughts about Cass' reintro thus far?
> 
> Surprised that she doesn't apparently have any scars, but that may change


She seems to be almost the same as the old Cass except the old Cass would have kicked the Prophet's butt in less than 10 seconds.

----------


## JaggedFel

Come on I dont care what they say Karate Kid is a metahuman. He is beatng Kryptonian Level foes with his bare hands and no Kryptonite.

----------


## heyevaxx

@JaggedFel
I agree that meta-human designation is hard to avoid when feats become so inhuman. Like in Batgirl v1-34 2003-01 when she travels maybe 6-10 feet in the time it takes the bullet to go about 3-6 feet. That would put her speed at *over 1000 miles per hour*. This is the only speed feet of Cass' that I have a hard time buying while still leaving her without the meta-gene.

@ Dark Knight1047
Amen to that! In the old days with her peak fighting skill, Orph would not have kicked her in the first encounter nor would have surprised her and grabbed her from behind in their second fight. And yeh, she'd nerve struck him or done some kind of "just enough" hit to put him down. On her first attack.

But that's something I'm actually kind of liking in NewCass: she's a little more "reasonable" fighting wise. I think even her new level could be better than the whole Batfam including Bruce, but maybe not as much better as old Cass. And I'm fine with that. If that's what it takes to make editorial (*cough*, DiDio, *cough*) more comfortable keeping her in the Gotham universe, I'm all for it.

I mean as it is some BRE readers - in particular some Grayson fans - did not enjoy Cassandra's fight with Dick. So I don't want DC to push it. Show new Cass as an awesomely fast fighter with body reading but with a default level that allows a really good fighter to touch her and it not be a story point like in the old days. And Cass has been hit/touched a lot in BRE:

1) Dick's right hand closed on her neck in BRE01, maybe she let that happen so she could throw him
2) Orphan kicked a door that knocked Cass over or his kick of the door also hit her
3) It's hard to tell but it looks like the back of Cass' suit got slashed by Hood. There were also some blood drops in the air but not on Cass or in later panels.
4) Jason grabbed Cass' neck/collar with his left hand just before Grayson intervened
5) Orphan grabbed Cass from behind and then threw her

@The Cool Thatguy
Yeh, I was looking for scars when she was shown being pleased with her loose, black dress. There were none to be seen but she wasn't always drawn with them back in the day.

I'm real happy so far with her re-introduction. I was guessing she'd be more violent (e.g. arm chopping) and her relationships/sexuality would get explored (e.g. hand holding). It's the New52 and everything is ampped up.

But I'm pleased that she's only said one word, Mother, 3 times in 7 issues. I hope they don't rush her learning to talk/read/write. I do wonder why Harp didn't jump out of her seat when Cass said Mother at the ballet. Maybe Harp didn't hear her over the orchestra.

With her fighting and mostly muteness established, they did a great job in BRE07 showing Cass emote:
1) happy about her dress and necklace
2) empathetic toward Harp over her dress code concerns
3) wonder and joy at the dancing
4) generosity offering her food to Harp

They did a great job is mostly Genevieve Valentine rocking the house. Her dialog, for everyone, was good to great. And the 2 pager at the ballet with Cassie's reactiona and the hand touching/holding and Harp's dialog were the best 2 pages in the series IMO. Too bad Genevieve can't write most of the rest of the series!

I'm real interested to see how the Harp/Cass thing develops. I think Harper is definitely attracted to Cass but what she feels, who knows? I think her communication and socialization issues will really make for a good story. Plus, getting Steph involved in Cass' life is something else to look forward to.

So far, so good, all things considered. I can't wait for the next issue!

----------


## Speed Force League Unlimited

Black Cat?
I like Cassandra, and the suit on her is better than it was on Huntress.
I like her more as Batgirl, that is.

----------


## Carabas

> @JaggedFel
> I agree that meta-human designation is hard to avoid when feats become so inhuman. Like in Batgirl v1-34 2003-01 when she travels maybe 6-10 feet in the time it takes the bullet to go about 3-6 feet. That would put her speed at *over 1000 miles per hour*. This is the only speed feet of Cass' that I have a hard time buying while still leaving her without the meta-gene.


I have always taken it as a given that what counts as superhuman in a superhero universe and what counts as superhuman in our universe are not exactly similar.

All of the so-called peak humans like Batman, Nightwing etcetera routinely pull stunts that nobody could possibly do no matter how well they are trained.

----------


## Agent Z

> I have always taken it as a given that what counts as superhuman in a superhero universe and what counts as superhuman in our universe are not exactly similar.
> 
> All of the so-called peak humans like Batman, Nightwing etcetera routinely pull stunts that nobody could possibly do no matter how well they are trained.


Very much agreed. The Bat family's feats have always stretched suspension of disbelief.

----------


## Carabas

> Very much agreed. The Bat family's feats have always stretched suspension of disbelief.


Not just the Bat-crew.
The Hawkeyes, the Green Arrows, The Punisher, Echo, ,Deadshot,practically all of the non-powered Flash Rogues... even SHIELD agents like Coulson, May, Fury...

----------


## Agent Z

> Not just the Bat-crew.
> The Hawkeyes, the Green Arrows, The Punisher, Echo, ,Deadshot,practically all of the non-powered Flash Rogues... even SHIELD agents like Coulson, May, Fury...


Wait what have Coulson and May done that strains credibility so much?

----------


## heyevaxx

@Carabas, @Agent Z
I completely agree with:
"what counts as superhuman in a superhero universe and what counts as superhuman in our universe are not exactly similar"
"The Bat family's feats have always stretched suspension of disbelief."

But I'm not as big a fan of the other characters that were listed.

And Cass frequently lands in X vs Y debates and her feats are dissected in excruciating detail.

I still feel that particular feat, no matter the medium and the standards around it, is too much for a non-alien, non-meta, at least for me. I'm pretty good with all her other feats despite many of them being beyond human. This one though... I think it's because I can look at the page and do the math.

Btw, I really love the character of Cassandra Cain and this single feat critique isn't a knock on her in the least.

What do you guys think of the rest of my post and the main question:

*Anyone have any thoughts about Cass' reintro thus far?*

----------


## Carabas

> Wait what have Coulson and May done that strains credibility so much?


Nothing that strains credibility, but plenty of stuff that's just not happening within the confines of our reality.

For May, practically every fight she's ever been in.
For Coulson, let's just start with "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer"...

----------


## heyevaxx

[Holy Cow, no Cass appreciation posts since last year?! Eek, this must be fixed!]

Cass has been "blue eyed" wrongly quite a few times in BRE. It's been really jarring for big fans like me who are used to her *brown* eyes from years gone by. The DC team has tweeted that it will be fixed in the collected edition.

Can anyone confirm if the BRE v1 TPB covering 01-12 has Cass' eyes color corrected to brown? Check BRE01 when she fights Dick and the last page of BRE12.

Here are two examples of BRE using blue for Cass' eyes compared with Tumblr fanedits with her eyes fixed to brown:

*BRE01.eyes-ORIGINAL.blue-FANEDIT.brown << BRE01 when Cass is body reading Dick*


*BRE12.eyes-ORIGINAL.blue-FANEDIT.brown << BRE12 last page*

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Come on I dont care what they say Karate Kid is a metahuman. He is beatng Kryptonian Level foes with his bare hands and no Kryptonite.



Did he now?...  :Wink: 

- Batgirl #3 "batgirl meets meta" - after a long fight, Cass finally puts down a meta-human that had made short work out of Batman;
- Batgirl #18 - Cass dodges several bullets after they were fired in front of Tim Drake who can't belive what he's seeing;
- Batgirl #33 - Cass ko's a meta-human with one single punch;
- Batgirl #34 - Cass literally out-paces a bullet, as she beats the projectil to its mark;
- Batgirl #45 - Cass easly puts down a meta-human that throwing cars around like if they were ping-pong balls, with one pressure-point;
- Batgirl #49 - 50 drugged people were beating Robin down, Cass came in and put them all to sleep in a few seconds, it was so fast that Robin didn't even saw anything;
- Batgirl anual #1 - Cass runs as a blur;
- Batman and the outsiders #8 - Cass solos the chinese military;
- Supergirl #63 - "the best medicine" - Supergirl had just got stomped by a bizarro version of Supergirl, Cass came in and defeated Bizarro Supergirl easly in close-combat by dodging all of her attacks and caused her to basically eletrocute herself.
- Superboy #85 - "silent, but deadly" - Cass broke through Superboy's force field with a smack to his face, and he stated that no one had ever did it before.
- Batgirl #41 - Superboy gets ragdolled by a skyscrapper sized monster, and Cass gets grabbed by the monster and just punches him hard and he colapses to the ground.
- Supergirl 2007 special - Cass overwhelmed Supergirl and could have killed her, but some plot-device cristals randomly came out of Supergirls body and stabbed Cass, although on that instance Supergirl was weakned by the red solar radiation swords that Cass was wearing.
Anyway, there are much more exemples...although, i have no problem admitting that KK would beat Cass, based on consistency, the guy is just insane feats-wise, defently the best hand-to-hand fighter in comics of all time.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> [Holy Cow, no Cass appreciation posts since last year?! Eek, this must be fixed!]
> 
> Cass has been "blue eyed" wrongly quite a few times in BRE. It's been really jarring for big fans like me who are used to her *brown* eyes from years gone by. The DC team has tweeted that it will be fixed in the collected edition.
> 
> Can anyone confirm if the BRE v1 TPB covering 01-12 has Cass' eyes color corrected to brown? Check BRE01 when she fights Dick and the last page of BRE12.
> 
> Here are two examples of BRE using blue for Cass' eyes compared with Tumblr fanedits with her eyes fixed to brown:
> 
> *BRE01.eyes-ORIGINAL.blue-FANEDIT.brown << BRE01 when Cass is body reading Dick*
> ...


From what I've heard they've been mostly corrected althought there are still panels where her eyes are still blue.

Wish they had got this right from the beginning since they made the same mistake in Convergence too. Now even DC wiki lists her eyes as blue :/ http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(New_Earth)

----------


## Aahz

> Cass has been "blue eyed" wrongly quite a few times in BRE. It's been really jarring for big fans like me who are used to her *brown* eyes from years gone by. The DC team has tweeted that it will be fixed in the collected edition.


According to several Character profiles she had green eyes  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## heyevaxx

Oh wow, bat_girl_cc, this is quite a list! I added some commentaries to provide another Cass fanatic's view of each feat. I looked up all of these to be sure I was on the mark. And I agree that old Cass could level up with some pretty amazing super-powered fighters.

_- Batgirl #3 "batgirl meets meta" - after a long fight, Cass finally puts down a meta-human that had made short work out of Batman;_
The meta (big, strong, tough) had ripped the chest of Batman's suit with the logo off him. The meta came out of the building trying to kill a kid Cass was protecting. Massive fight, the meta went down, Bats appears, and Cass falls over spent from the fight. Bats might have been stunned or knocked out for a minute at the most. Plus, while Cass defeated the meta she was spent.

_- Batgirl #18 - Cass dodges several bullets after they were fired in front of Tim Drake who can't belive what he's seeing;_
True. 2 short range bullet dodges with Cass facing the gunman.

_- Batgirl #33 - Cass ko's a meta-human with one single punch;_
True but the meta (looks normal but is ultra tough) was waking up from being knocked out by Bats. It wasn't exactly a fight though Cass was instructed by Bats to "hit him hard enough to crush a normal human skull". Which she did as soon as the guy stood up. And what a punch! His head smashed a hole in a brick wall behind him. It was a mighty blow but I wouldn't call it a fight.

_- Batgirl #34 - Cass literally out-paces a bullet, as she beats the projectil to its mark;_
Yes, and like I said above, Cass is not meta, she's not an alien, and she not a God (New or Old). I can take bullet dodging and micro-Flash speed feats, like fast punches. But macro-speed stuff like sprinting 12 feet at 1000 miles per hour... I don't get it. This is Cass' one great feat that I just kinda roll my eyes at.

_- Batgirl #45 - Cass easly puts down a meta-human that throwing cars around like if they were ping-pong balls, with one pressure-point;_
False! It was at least 10 car throwing metas!  :Smile:  A riot of Soul drug users is happening and one of them picks a 4 door car completely overhead and throws it at Tim. Cass awkwardly tackles Tim saving his life but there are 10 Soul users surrounding them. Next page: 10 Soul users are knocked out and Cass' outfit is torn and a sleeve is ripped off. So Cass was touched (a lot!) but she got the job done with super strong and probably tough meta-like humans. Plus she saved Tim's life twice in a couple of pages.

_- Batgirl #49 - 50 drugged people were beating Robin down, Cass came in and put them all to sleep in a few seconds, it was so fast that Robin didn't even saw anything;_
50?! I counted 8 on the bus. Tim had been stunned and Cass leaped in like a whirlwind putting them all down. Tim later said it was a "mob" and in a few seconds they were all down. Tim was knocked down during those seconds so it makes sense he didn't see anything. It might have been more than 8 but I don't know about 50. It was still amazing none the less.

_- Batgirl anual #1 - Cass runs as a blur;_
True but it's kinda nutty since she's not the Flash. Again, fighting fast and running as a blur or faster than a bullet are very different in my book. Plus, Cassie's annual was barely about her which is too bad.

_- Batman and the outsiders #8 - Cass solos the chinese military;_
Heheh, it wasn't "the Chinese military". She disarmed or pantsed 24 soldiers so fast they couldn't get a shot off. She ended with her sword at the Chinese general's throat and she said "No guns." Classic Cass! She was using Katana's sword which no doubt helped since it's magical, super sharp, etc. Still, she was very awesome in this scene.

_- Supergirl #63 - "the best medicine" - Supergirl had just got stomped by a bizarro version of Supergirl, Cass came in and defeated Bizarro Supergirl easly in close-combat by dodging all of her attacks and caused her to basically eletrocute herself._
True though Bizarro Supergirl gave up the fight so she could keep electrocuting herself for fun cause she's so Bizarro. Still, Cass shined against a super.

_- Superboy #85 - "silent, but deadly" - Cass broke through Superboy's force field with a smack to his face, and he stated that no one had ever did it before._
I don't know what happened here! I'm guessing that Kon was blabbering so much and Cass was being so stoic and quiet that he was "off" and his powers weren't working right. Plus, he may have had some teenage boy hormones pumping that could have put him off his game. No matter the reason though, she did hit him as she said "Focus". And it happened in the Superboy title too so it wasn't even Cass' own title where she did this. Pretty cool.

_- Batgirl #41 - Superboy gets ragdolled by a skyscrapper sized monster, and Cass gets grabbed by the monster and just punches him hard and he colapses to the ground._
Skyscraper, really?  :Smile:  Yes, it was a BIG alien but more like 40-100 feet in diameter. Still, this was quiet a feat. She sized up where to hit it as hard as she could to stun it. Plus, her body reading picked up that it really wasn't evil but just... lonely. Very nice issue.

_- Supergirl 2007 special - Cass overwhelmed Supergirl and could have killed her, but some plot-device cristals randomly came out of Supergirls body and stabbed Cass, although on that instance Supergirl was weakned by the red solar radiation swords that Cass was wearing._
Oh wow, bat_girl_cc, you're actually going there! Yes, EvilCass captured and badly tortured a friend of Supergirl's to lure her to a trap. Diamond dust and red radiation helped Cass though Supergirl did manage to land one kick on Cass. I can only imagine that SG wasn't kicking full force and/or Cass was already moving away when the kick landed. Cass did some more dodging and eventually had the swords at SG's throat when the crystals spiked into Cass from SG's wounds. A freaky EvilCass fight. But the art looked great!

----------


## heyevaxx

> Now even DC wiki lists her eyes as blue :/ http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(New_Earth)


I fixed it at DC Wikia to "Brown" eyes.

Thanks for the heads up and please ping me if anything else at DC Wikia is messed up for Cass.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I fixed it at DC Wikia to "Brown" eyes.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up and please ping me if anything else at DC Wikia is messed up for Cass.


Well, that didn't last long since someone changed the color to GREEN with this BS argument http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:468363

[edit] So now they are listing all eye colors, even those that were admitted as coloring mistakes. Funnily enough, there's so many close-ups of her BROWN eyes in her solo series that you could probably compile a full comicbook out of them.

By his logic Selina Kyle's eyes should be listed as blue or gray instead of green.

----------


## heyevaxx

> Well, that didn't last long since someone changed the color to GREEN with this BS argument http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:468363


Wow, the DC Wikia editor says that no matter what is in the comics the DC encyclopedia and the Secret Profile pages trump everything.

BLUE  1999-12 No Man's Land Secret Files And Origins
GREEN 2002-08 Batgirl Secret Files and Origins
GREEN 2004-01 DC Comics Encyclopedia v1
BROWN 2005-08 Batman Allies Secret Files and Origins 
GREEN 2008-01 DC Comics Encyclopedia v2

Now the DC Wikia profile shows her eyes are green! Jeez, at least they have been (wrongly) blue a few times. Now they're listed as GREEN!

The admin said (I guess as a compromise) that he was going to list all of the colors! Cassie has Green/Blue/Brown eyes!

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Cassandra_Cain_(New_Earth)
*Eyes:	Blue, Green, Brown*

The most interesting line in my talk with the DC Wikia Admin is this one:
_All those images that portray her with brown eyes (except those between 2005 and 2008) are technically coloring mistakes._

----------


## heyevaxx

Ugh, I made such a big mistake trying to fix Cass' pre52 eye color at DC Wikia.  :Frown:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Hah, maybe Tynion should write like a three line character bio for Cass when Rebirth starts:

Name: Cassandra Cain
Eye color: HER EYES ARE BROWN
Bio: She kicks Major ass

[edit] too tired, THANKS DC WIKI

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> To top it off I was emailed this:
> 
> _And because you defaced the page, you've been banned from editing for a while._


Wait what?! There's like some Illuminati level of conspiracy going on about Cass's eye color.

----------


## heyevaxx

If a tweet from Tony Daniel who works for DC and is a BRE artist drawing Cass doesn't change DC Wikia's mind, I guess nothing will. Unless a new DC Encyclopedia or a Secret Files profile comes out.

Tony Daniel is an artist on Batman and Robin Eternal which features Cassandra Cain:
https://twitter.com/TonyDanielx2/sta...39832289697792

Loyiyi ‏@_Loyiyi 15 Oct 2015
@TonyDanielx2 Mr. Daniels sir, please help Cass return to her original brown-eyes in the next issue, please?

Tony S Daniel ‏@TonyDanielx2 15 Oct 2015
@_Loyiyi I don't have control over colors, especially issues I don't actually draw.

Loyiyi ‏@_Loyiyi 16 Oct 2015
@TonyDanielx2 Thank you for the response though. I'll try to find the colorist in charge of the book.

Tony S Daniel @TonyDanielx2 5:54 PM - 16 Oct 2015
@_Loyiyi Checked on this, and *it was just an oversight. The rest of the issues she'll have brown eyes. as well as corrected in the trades.*

PS - At least New52 Prime Earth Cass has BROWN eyes!
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Cassandra_C...Prime_Earth%29

----------


## heyevaxx

> Hah, maybe Tynion should write like a three line character bio for Cass when Rebirth starts:
> Name: Cassandra Cain
> Eye color: HER EYES ARE BROWN
> Bio: She kicks Major ass
> [edit] too tired, THANKS DC WIKI





> Wait what?! There's like some Illuminati level of conspiracy going on about Cass's eye color.


LOL, real, enjoyable out loud laughing!

Thanks SneakyLookingSort. I needed a pick me up after all this bizarro eye color stuff.

And right on about Selina too. Catwoman has green eyes people, not blue, green. Injustice has done her with blue but I just chalk it up as an Elseworlds thing.  :Smile:

----------


## Thirteen

Bringing over some mention of Cassandra Cain: Rebirth from the Detective Comics thread (edited to focus on just the Cassandra comments)




> YASSSSSSS!!!!! I'm very, very happy for this.
> 
> My #1 fear was Cass being allowed in for BRE and then post-Rebirth she'd just be an occasional guest, maybe in Batman or BoP.
> 
> 
> This is excellent and I'm fine with what I've read with JTIV in BRE. In fact, I'm more than fine. I think he's written Cass and Bats very well. I don't understand the trepidation about JTIV's writing. Has he blown stuff up before ala Beechen or Nocenti?
> 
> And I'm 100% ok with Cass' black, full face mask! Though this is only one pic from one artist, I'm also glad she's not drawn busty like they sometimes did back in the day.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> PS - At least New52 Prime Earth Cass has BROWN eyes!
> http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Cassandra_C...Prime_Earth%29


I guess that counts as a small victory. Wars are won one battle at a time... or something




> Bringing over some mention of Cassandra Cain: Rebirth from the Detective Comics thread (edited to focus on just the Cassandra comments)


Just today I had been thinking of what other costumes Cass could be wearing and one that came to mind was her costume in Red Robin #17 since it would go well with Stephanie's current Spoiler costume other being wedding gown


Even thought I admit I hated it at the time since there's something really racist about putting a half-asian girl in a ninja costume and sending her to Hong Kong (Was it Batman's idea? No wonder Trump likes him)

----------


## Aahz

> BLUE  1999-12 No Man's Land Secret Files And Origins
> GREEN 2002-08 Batgirl Secret Files and Origins
> GREEN 2004-01 DC Comics Encyclopedia v1
> BROWN 2005-08 Batman Allies Secret Files and Origins 
> GREEN 2008-01 DC Comics Encyclopedia v2


According to THE BATMAN FILES they are also green.

The Stats are anyway in many cases very flawed. Barbara Gordon is for example according to most stats 1 inch taller than Dick and 3 inch taller than her father.

And then there is that Death Certificate that claimed that Jason was 15 but only 4'6'' when he died (which makes both no sense).

----------


## Aahz

> Even thought I admit I hated it at the time since there's something really racist about putting a half-asian girl in a ninja costume and sending her to Hong Kong (Was it Batman's idea? No wonder Trump likes him)


Its also "racist" that she is the bets martial artist because she is asian.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Its also "racist" that she is the bets martial artist because she is asian.


Who says it's just because she's asian? She still had to train :P

And I was going for a joke there (but i felt it was still was too much on the nose)

----------


## Aahz

> Who says it's just because she's asian? She still had to train :P


It is still kind of a clichéd that she as one Asian Batfamily Character is all about Martial Arts, while the rest has a much broader skill set.

----------


## Vworp Vworp

Well.  That's awful.

----------


## JediKage

> It is still kind of a clichéd that she as one Asian Batfamily Character is all about Martial Arts, while the rest has a much broader skill set.


Nah there is still Steph.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Oh wow, bat_girl_cc, this is quite a list! I added some commentaries to provide another Cass fanatic's view of each feat. I looked up all of these to be sure I was on the mark. And I agree that old Cass could level up with some pretty amazing super-powered fighters.
> 
> _- Batgirl #3 "batgirl meets meta" - after a long fight, Cass finally puts down a meta-human that had made short work out of Batman;_
> The meta (big, strong, tough) had ripped the chest of Batman's suit with the logo off him. The meta came out of the building trying to kill a kid Cass was protecting. Massive fight, the meta went down, Bats appears, and Cass falls over spent from the fight. Bats might have been stunned or knocked out for a minute at the most. Plus, while Cass defeated the meta she was spent.
> 
> _- Batgirl #18 - Cass dodges several bullets after they were fired in front of Tim Drake who can't belive what he's seeing;_
> True. 2 short range bullet dodges with Cass facing the gunman.
> 
> _- Batgirl #33 - Cass ko's a meta-human with one single punch;_
> ...


- Lol, i felt like being nice, and for other people reading this not feel bad about their favs not being this capable, i only mentioned 1 meta xD
- They were 50, it was stated by either Babs or Tim (i think it was Tim), and later on the issue, Tim told Bruce that it happened so fast that he didn't even saw anything, it happened all in a few seconds.
- Not only the flash, can run as a blur, he's kinda overrated actually xD
- Yup, i mean, she didn't beat every single chinese guy in the militar all at once, that would be thousands of people...but she did beat a bunch of them, got to the General and forced the others to surrender, even if it were like 100 or 200 guys, they would have to surrender all of the same.
- Well, sky-scrapper its just my interpretation of it, Cass looked no bigger in comparrison to that monster than a fly would look at my feet, and i'm 6' ft tal.
- Yup, i no, its not from the best time of old Cass, but i just felt like mentioning it, i mean, even a bad-written and often jobbing Cass is still over-the-top capabillitites wise.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Who says it's just because she's asian? She still had to train :P
> 
> And I was going for a joke there (but i felt it was still was too much on the nose)


Actually, her mother was personally hand-picked by her father, and he caused her to kill her own older sister to get better...then Cass was born and she wasn't taught how to talk or read, instead only taught how to fight and read body-language, she was also beat up and pretty much tortured with her father going as far as shotting her all over her body to enhance her pain-tolerance, and later train her agillity and speed.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> It is still kind of a clichéd that she as one Asian Batfamily Character is all about Martial Arts, while the rest has a much broader skill set.


There are 2 types of characters:

- the ones that are good at everything, but not the best at anything, or even close to it on most cases.
- and the ones that are actually the best at something, or very close to it.
XD

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Actually, her mother was personally hand-picked by her father, and he caused her to kill her own older sister to get better...then Cass was born and she wasn't taught how to talk or read, instead only taught how to fight and read body-language, she was also beat up and pretty much tortured with her father going as far as shotting her all over her body to enhance her pain-tolerance, and later train her agillity and speed.


Trust me, I know her story really well. What I said was it wasn't the genes that gave her those punches, kicks and nerve strikes.

----------


## Carabas

> Actually, her mother was personally hand-picked by her father, and he caused her to kill her own older sister to get better...


This is New 52 Cass then, I assume?

----------


## scary harpy

> Well.  That's awful.


Scary. 

Especially, the mask.

----------


## Agent Z

Anyone have any clue what Cass' new moniker is?

----------


## heyevaxx

> Anyone have any clue what Cass' new moniker is?


we find out tomorrow

----------


## heyevaxx

This is so nice to see!


Tom King ‏@TomKingTK 10:26 AM - 29 Mar 2016
_Cassandra will be a featured player in Detective, and as a part of the family shell appear throughout the line._

FunkIsItsOwnReward @commonlybill
@Ssnyder1835 @TomKingTK _will cassandra cain be in either of your books? looking forward to both. mr. king, sheriff is a beast. amazing._
https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/714820908779577344

----------


## Sardorim

Did they kill that imposter who stole Cassandra's spot in the Dynamic Trio for New 52?

Hate her so much. That annoying Mary Sue.




> It is still kind of a clichéd that she as one Asian Batfamily Character is all about Martial Arts, while the rest has a much broader skill set.


Cassandra is half-Asian.

----------


## Arnoldoaad

> Well.  That's awful.


Ears.

Bat ears.

thats it!
thats the only thing that is missing from this design to be, not good but at least passable.

I think there is still enough time to go to the drawing board.

----------


## Aahz

I don't really get why they bring the improvised stitches back (or why Cass never got a non improvised closed cowl in the first place).

----------


## Cowtools

> Did they kill that imposter who stole Cassandra's spot in the Dynamic Trio for New 52?
> 
> Hate her so much. That annoying Mary Sue.


You mean Babs? or Helena? Kate? Bette? Who? WHO?
Ahh, this is gonna bug me. Who could you mean!

----------


## darkseidpwns

> You mean Babs? or Helena? Kate? Bette? Who? WHO?
> Ahh, this is gonna bug me. Who could you mean!


I think the poster means Strix.

----------


## Cowtools

> I think the poster means Strix.


Or maybe Katharsis?
It truly is a puzzle!

----------


## Sardorim

> You mean Babs? or Helena? Kate? Bette? Who? WHO?
> Ahh, this is gonna bug me. Who could you mean!


The one woth the lame haircut. Was it Blue something?

Harper Loser?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The one woth the lame haircut. Was it Blue something?
> 
> Harper Loser?


I'm shocked...not.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Harper didn't steal anything. If they had let Snyder use Steph or Cass sooner he would have used them.

----------


## Thirteen

> I don't really get why they bring the improvised stitches back (or why Cass never got a non improvised closed cowl in the first place).


TSBranch's redesign of Cassandra is spot on, even echoing the new Batman logo before the innovation was introduced to Batman proper.

As far as the "closed cowl" look goes, I favor the ninja mask with bat ears in the style that is seen in Bredenius' design, perhaps with her hair still loose (but short)
http://bredenius.deviantart.com/art/...Cain-437197682

----------


## Smoov-E

> Harper didn't steal anything. If they had let Snyder use Steph or Cass sooner he would have used them.


Them not letting Snyder use Cass or Steph is a cop out and a half assed one at that

----------


## Sardorim

> Harper didn't steal anything. If they had let Snyder use Steph or Cass sooner he would have used them.


And that imposter wouldn't exist.

Hate her so much, hope she's killed off or left behind in the next dc reboot.

In other news, Cass's new costume is very bad. That mask...

She had a reason why she wore the patched up mask in the old continuity. This is forced for no reason and looks lame with the no ears.

I also hate her forced friendship with lame Harper. Or how everyone befriends and worships how great Harper is at everything or how Harper stole BRE from real Robin's.

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## Carabas

> And that imposter wouldn't exist.
> 
> Hate her so much, hope she's killed off or left behind in the next dc reboot.
> 
> In other news, Cass's new costume is very bad. That mask...
> 
> She had a reason why she wore the patched up mask in the old continuity. This is forced for no reason and looks lame with the no ears.
> 
> I also hate her forced friendship with lame Harper. Or how everyone befriends and worships how great Harper is at everything or how Harper stole BRE from real Robin's.


It's posts like this that make me want DC to kill Bruce Wayne and make Harper (or whatever the current new characters is that fans hate) takes his place.

----------


## Divine Spark

Sardorim's hatred for Bluebird is amusing.

----------


## JediKage

It is exaggerated. But poster is right, I don't care how drugged Cass was. If she can still move, she should be able to stomp all over Harper.

----------


## The Whovian

> It is exaggerated. But poster is right, I don't care how drugged Cass was. If she can still move, she should be able to stomp all over Harper.


Yep, without a doubt

----------


## Cowtools

> It's posts like this that make me want DC to kill Bruce Wayne and make Harper (or whatever the current new characters is that fans hate) takes his place.


Ha! Me too.




> Sardorim's hatred for Bluebird is amusing.


For me it's funny because that's exactly how people were talking about Sterh when she took over from Cassas Batgirl. And probably how people were talking about Cass when she became Batgirl over Babs or Helena. And probably how people complained about Tim back in the day too.

I don't get why it has to be an either/or situation. I still love Cass, but I enjoy Harper too. They're not in competition. Like, I don't really care for Jason, but I'm not going to act like he's defiling my comics overtime he appears.

After the climax of Batman & Robin Eternal, I'd be sad is Harper didn't appear in Detective Comics with Cass. I love how deeply they came to care about each other. DC should throw that away because of haters.

----------


## billee0918

> The one woth the lame haircut. Was it Blue something?
> 
> Harper Loser?


Harper Loser? Oooooh. Burn.

----------


## JediKage

Not the same Cowtools, IMO. Barbara hadn't been Batgirl in a while and was Oracle. Cass on the other hand got unceremoniously pushed out the door. I do agree there is probably enough room. But this only applies to the Bat Franchise. So many comicbooks published. Green Lantern on the other hand has too many human GLs and not enough books to go around.

----------


## Rac7d*

Can someone update her titles

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> This is New 52 Cass then, I assume?


Yup, the Cass that debuted on Batman and Robin Eternal, and that will now appear on Detective Comics as one of the main-charcaters, can be called Post-Flashpoint Cass, i've been calling her just "new Cass", but PF Cass is more "spot on" i guess.

----------


## Rogue Star

> TSBranch's redesign of Cassandra is spot on, even echoing the new Batman logo before the innovation was introduced to Batman proper.


I *LOVE* this but the hexagonal patterns in the arms makes me think of bees rather than bats.

----------


## Zainu

I saw this video today, and I had to share it here. The song, the background(kind of like Cass's isolated childhood training/upbringing) and the fierce little girl just reminds me so much of Cass. Plus, she looks adorable doing katas in her slightly oversized little karate uniform.

----------


## Rogue Star

Yeah, that girl is amazing. I wish I could get my daughter to be so disciplined!

----------


## KrustyKid

Made my first Cassandra Cain tribute video. It's a combination of pre-52 and current Cass. Thought I'd share it here.

----------


## The Whovian

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude, that was very cool! Thanks for sharing that! 

I made a 3 second GIF of Cass dodging bullets once, but this is so amazing.  :Big Grin: 

After watching that, you're inspiring me to make some of my favorite characters.

----------


## Rogue Star

This reminds me of how hard I bit Cass' origin story with one of my so-called original characters. ^^;

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Made my first Cassandra Cain tribute video. It's a combination of pre-52 and current Cass. Thought I'd share it here.


Awesome dude!
Great vídeo, congrats!

----------


## JediKage

> I saw this video today, and I had to share it here. The song, the background(kind of like Cass's isolated childhood training/upbringing) and the fierce little girl just reminds me so much of Cass. Plus, she looks adorable doing katas in her slightly oversized little karate uniform.


It is fitting

----------


## heyevaxx

> Made my first Cassandra Cain tribute video. It's a combination of pre-52 and current Cass. Thought I'd share it here.


Amazing!!!

----------


## KrustyKid

Thanks for the feedback guys, it is most appreciated!

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Just was thinking that I wish they kept the hood from her New 52 costume since it would look so BADASS

----------


## scary harpy

> Just was thinking that I wish they kept the hood from her New 52 costume since it would look so BADASS


It does look good. Really Good!

----------


## Zainu



----------


## Zainu



----------


## Zainu

Young Jeeja Yanin is my ideal live action version of Cass.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Zainu

Editor of Detective Comics, Chris Conroy, delineates Batman and Batwoman’s “pupils” in this new series, in the DC Rebirth Previews.



ORPHAN: aka The Reform School Girl

“Orphan *[Cassandra Cain] is the one Batman feels a need to keep an eye on.* She was raised for one purpose killing and while she doesn’t want to go back to that life, *she needs a new life built for her*”

*
DC, you would have all my money, love, and loyalty(again) if Bruce adopts her(again), and gives her a place at Wayne manor.
All my money for Bruce-Cass's old father-daughter relationship again!*

Aw, who am I kidding? Tomasi would never stand for that. But then again...one can always hope!

----------


## Punisher007

> Ha! Me too.
> 
> 
> 
> For me it's funny because that's exactly how people were talking about Sterh when she took over from Cassas Batgirl. And probably how people were talking about Cass when she became Batgirl over Babs or Helena. And probably how people complained about Tim back in the day too.
> 
> I don't get why it has to be an either/or situation. I still love Cass, but I enjoy Harper too. They're not in competition. Like, I don't really care for Jason, but I'm not going to act like he's defiling my comics overtime he appears.
> 
> After the climax of Batman & Robin Eternal, I'd be sad is Harper didn't appear in Detective Comics with Cass. I love how deeply they came to care about each other. DC should throw that away because of haters.


That's fandom for you, we tend to be VERY factionalized and overly-defensive of our faves.  It's not enough to just have a favorite, or prefer one character over another.  No, you have to actively dump all over the others and sometimes wish them harm in-universe.  See the X-Men or GL fandom for further proof of this.  Or the Star Wars fandom for a non-comic specific example.

It's kind of sad/pathetic really.

----------


## Rogue Star

> 


Too bad if we ever see Cass in the movies they'll probably just cast a tv actress who couldn't kick a soccer ball in real life.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Just was thinking that I wish they kept the hood from her New 52 costume since it would look so BADASS


As far as visual appeal, agreed.

----------


## Thirteen

> Just was thinking that I wish they kept the hood from her New 52 costume since it would look so BADASS


Did a couple of quick manips for my view. 

The hooded New52 suit looks more like something for Onyx than Cass


Adding the closed cowl with bat-ears to TSBranch's redesign of Cassandra makes it about perfect.  Maybe add a short cape.

----------


## Caivu

A respect thread for New 52 Cass just went up on r/respectthreads a little while ago. Figured it'd be of interest.

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthre...comics_new_52/

----------


## JediKage

> Did a couple of quick manips for my view. 
> 
> The hooded New52 suit looks more like something for Onyx than Cass
> 
> 
> Adding the closed cowl with bat-ears to TSBranch's redesign of Cassandra makes it about perfect.  Maybe add a short cape.


I do like it better.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Katana+ninja mask combo kinda rubs me the wrong way.

----------


## Sardorim

> It's posts like this that make me want DC to kill Bruce Wayne and make Harper (or whatever the current new characters is that fans hate) takes his place.


Good thing that'll never happen. Harper is the least popular one and will never star her own title and even if she did.

It would never come close to Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra or Damian sales numbers.

----------


## Sardorim

Hmm.. Cassandra Cain from Titans Tomorrow... Today!

Seems like her new outfits get some inspiration from it ever since she stopped being Batgirl.

And based off Rebirth it seems that DC loves giving Bat characters the color yellow when not using red or blue.

----------


## Carabas

Am I the only one that was wondering what exactly a "iatwoman" is supposed to be?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Am I the only one that was wondering what exactly a "iatwoman" is supposed to be?


Haha, iAtwoman, new dating software from Apple

----------


## Agent Z

So who would you guys like to see write for Cass if she got another solo book? I'd personally like to see how Gail Simone handles her and Greg Rucka would also be a good choice for me.

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## SneakyLookingSort

> So who would you guys like to see write for Cass if she got another solo book? I'd personally like to see how Gail Simone handles her and Greg Rucka would also be a good choice for me.


Genevieve Valentine.

----------


## Carabas

Kelley Puckett (her creator) would be my first pick.

----------


## The Whovian

Bru would be a great choice as writer.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

1) James Tynion IV
2) Gail Simone
3) Scott Snyder
4) Genevive Valentine

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## Zainu

From what I've seen, Genevieve Valentine can adopt Cass and keep her. I trust the woman, and liked what I've seen from her so far.

Gail Simone on the other hand, should be kept far, far, faaaar away from Cass. 

I like Tynion's enthusiasm, and understanding(?) of Cass, but his writing isn't anything noteworthy.

----------


## MidTierHero

> Did they kill that imposter who stole Cassandra's spot in the Dynamic Trio for New 52?
> 
> Hate her so much. That annoying Mary Sue.


You think Harper is a Mary Sue, and Cassandra isn't? HA! You've got it mixed up, friendo.

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## The Cool Thatguy

> You think Harper is a Mary Sue, and Cassandra isn't? HA! You've got it mixed up, friendo.


I have no real feelings one way or the other towards Harper. Cass? Different story.

Marye sue is just a lazy term people use against her character to ignore her development and background. Her bad ass nature is justfied by her upbringing, and is balanced out by her lack of social knowledge. Her 'feats' were not done for their own sake, but were excellent stories in and of themselves, acting as foils for her character.

Really, Cass is the last Bat character they built up slowly vs. introducing them and then throwing them into a costume within six issues.

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## Carabas

> Really, Cass is the last Bat character they built up slowly vs. introducing them and then throwing them into a costume within six issues.


I think you're misremembering things.

I love the character dearly, but Cass got introduced in a two-issue story during No-Man's Land and was immediately given the costume the very next issue.

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## Agent Z

> From what I've seen, Genevieve Valentine can adopt Cass and keep her. I trust the woman, and liked what I've seen from her so far.
> 
> Gail Simone on the other hand, should be kept far, far, faaaar away from Cass. 
> 
> I like Tynion's enthusiasm, and understanding(?) of Cass, but his writing isn't anything noteworthy.


What's wrong with Gail Simone?

----------


## Carabas

> What's wrong with Gail Simone?


She once pitched the idea of Cassandra Cain: the born again christian Batgirl.

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## Punisher007

-Genevive Valentine.
-Scott Snyder.
-Greg Rucka.
-Ed Brubaker.
-Christopher Priest.

----------


## twincast

> I think you're misremembering things.
> 
> I love the character dearly, but Cass got introduced in a two-issue story during No-Man's Land and was immediately given the costume the very next issue.


Yep.




> She once pitched the idea of Cassandra Cain: the born again christian Batgirl.


Yikes.

----------


## Aahz

> Her bad ass nature is justfied by her upbringing, and is balanced out by her lack of social knowledge.


Even if I wouldn't call Cass "Mary Sue" (but overpowered), that you have a justification for her skills doesn't mean that somebody isn't a "Mary Sue". The original "Mary Sue" was for iirc a Half Vulcan how was the youngest student that ever graduated from the Star Fleet Academy. Which is at least as good as an explanation why she was bad ass as the explanation that Cass is bad ass since she is the Shiva daugther and was trained from birth. Designing a origin story to justify a skill or power of character in comicbook is not really difficult (it is not even that difficult to add something later on).

And some of Cass's pre flashpoint showings are imo not really justified by her training.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Even if I wouldn't call Cass "Mary Sue" (but overpowered), that you have a justification for her skills doesn't mean that somebody isn't a "Mary Sue". The original "Mary Sue" was for iirc a Half Vulcan how was the youngest student that ever graduated from the Star Fleet Academy. Which is at least as good as an explanation why she was bad ass as the explanation that Cass is bad ass since she is the Shiva daugther and was trained from birth. Designing a origin story to justify a skill or power of character in comicbook is not really difficult (it is not even that difficult to add something later on).
> 
> And some of Cass's pre flashpoint showings are imo not really justified by her training.


Cass' being Shiva's daughter was unrelated to her bad ass nature (that wasn't revealed until the end of her series), and the justification for her bad ass nature wasn't what made her not a mary sue, but the balance that resulted from it, IE her combat ability vs. her trouble understanding social situations.

The character flaws of mary sues are, by in large, defined as being too awesome, too powerful, etc. Inability to read or express one's self...is not that.

----------


## Aahz

> Cass' being Shiva's daughter was unrelated to her bad ass nature


It was iirc part of the explanation why Cass able to absolve her training successfully, it was iirc said that David Cain tried it before with other kids and failed. And therefore specifically choose Shiva as mother for his child.

But my point is that just because an origin story justifies the powers of a character doesn't mean that you don't have a Mary Sue. It is more relevant how the character is written. The way they constantly showed how much more bad ass she was than every body else (including guy like Batman, Nightwing and Black Canary who are belong to the best martial artist in the world) was imo very Mary Sue like.

The only reason why I wouldn't call her Mary Sue is there were iirc some good written character driven stories in her solo run.

----------


## Carabas

> It was iirc part of the explanation why Cass able to absolve her training successfully, it was iirc said that David Cain tried it before with other kids and failed. And therefore specifically choose Shiva as mother for his child.


It was retconned in by later writers that Cain had tried before with other kids.

----------


## Agent Z

> She once pitched the idea of Cassandra Cain: the born again christian Batgirl.


Eh, I'd have read it to give it a chance. Nothing could be worse than what Didio and Beechem did to her.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> Cass' being Shiva's daughter was unrelated to her bad ass nature (that wasn't revealed until the end of her series), and the justification for her bad ass nature wasn't what made her not a mary sue, but the balance that resulted from it, IE her combat ability vs. her trouble understanding social situations.
> 
> The character flaws of mary sues are, by in large, defined as being too awesome, too powerful, etc. Inability to read or express one's self...is not that.


Also, lack of ability to do detective work compared to the other Bat-people, lack of general skills compared to the other Bat-people...




> Eh, I'd have read it to give it a chance. Nothing could be worse than what Didio and Beechem did to her.


Mileage may vary, but for me it was really...ugh.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> Kelley Puckett (her creator) would be my first pick.


Seconded.  No question.

I'd be okay with Andersen Gabrych as well - he did a solid job with the established character.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> It was iirc part of the explanation why Cass able to absolve her training successfully, it was iirc said that David Cain tried it before with other kids and failed. And therefore specifically choose Shiva as mother for his child.
> 
> But my point is that just because an origin story justifies the powers of a character doesn't mean that you don't have a Mary Sue. It is more relevant how the character is written. The way they constantly showed how much more bad ass she was than every body else (including guy like Batman, Nightwing and Black Canary who are belong to the best martial artist in the world) was imo very Mary Sue like.
> 
> The only reason why I wouldn't call her Mary Sue is there were iirc some good written character driven stories in her solo run.


I'd say that a convincing origin matters a whole lot, as it makes a long way to making her a grounded character. And I'd point out that prior to Cass, when the rankings were last taken, Connor Hawke was in second place, with Shiva on first, as the best martial artist. A character's age isn't the only determination of ability, nor should it be.




> It was retconned in by later writers that Cain had tried before with other kids.


Which writer are you referring to, may I ask?

Because early on in Cass' solo series (the issue where Batman confronts Cain and beats his @$$), Cain outright said that he tried it with other kids, and the training only took with Cass. And it makes sense, as you're not gonna score 100 right out of the gate.

Gabrych used that to give us Mad Dog.

But it was Beechen who used it to turn Cain into a perv taskmaster trying to keep up with Deathstroke

----------


## godisawesome

Gabrych was the first one to _focus_ on Cain's previous attempts at super-martial arts kids, and I can't comment on whether or not the explicit idea that Cain had tried with kids before was mentioned by Puckett. The biggest change up between him and Beechen's was Beechen's tried to treat the program as somewhat more benign by having other survivors who weren't totally insane and making Cass jealous of people she initially wasn't jealous of at all.

Y'know, probably the most insulting thing about Beechen's lack of research on the character was how quickly it followed up on Gabrych's closing run on the book, which was clearly following some editorial dictates in the same way Beechen's would, and yet the two arcs felt like they were written with totally different characters. Gabrych tried, and largely succeeded, in following Puckett's characterizations and rules, and even though we readers could tell he was following some dictates, it was still a fairly enjoyable arc.

Beechen's failure at portraying the character adequate either time he had the character is somewhat surprising considering that.

----------


## Punisher007

Being a "Mary Sue" would imply that she has no flaws and is good at everything, which Cass is not.  She is extremely talented in one particular area (fighting).  But she still struggled, or at least is not instant prodigy in other areas, and has to work at them.  And she has her fair share of flaws as well.

----------


## lucius121

> Being a "Mary Sue" would imply that she has no flaws and is good at everything, which Cass is not.  She is extremely talented in one particular area (fighting).  But she still struggled, or at least is not instant prodigy in other areas, and has to work at them.  And she has her fair share of flaws as well.


Thank You, it's sad that that phrase is thrown around by people who have no idea what it means, a Mary Sue is not simply an overpowered female character, it is also not a female character who can beat your favourite  male character. A simple google of the phrase and it's origin would show you that's not what the phrase means.

----------


## Aahz

> I'd say that a convincing origin matters a whole lot, as it makes a long way to making her a grounded character.


I don't find her origin (and the resulting powerlevel) that convincing, and it completly contradicted the the established origin of Shiva (and Richarad Dragon and Bronze Tiger).




> And I'd point out that prior to Cass, when the rankings were last taken, Connor Hawke was in second place, with Shiva on first, as the best martial artist.


Connor Hawke was also a little Mary Sue like (maybe even more, since he was really relatively flaw less, especially in comparison to Olli and Roy), but I really can't recall that he ever made another hero look completely use less like Cass. And even Shiva wasn't that overpowered originally, she was for example defeated by Bruce and Jason in Death in the Family, and Tim also managed to get the better of during one sparing in Robin Vol. 1. I don't think that you ever saw something similar happen to Cass.

Mary Sue is imo anyway not a very good defined term (especially when used outside of fanfiction). But it has imo much more to do with the writing, than with specific character traits.

----------


## lucius121

Mary Sue is actually quite clearly defined, it's just used by most people in the wrong context. There are many examples of Mary Sue characters outside fan fiction however they are rarely the characters you would associate with the title. Some might say the phrase developed from it's initial meaning, however imo it's degenerated into a term used to reinforce stereotypes and straw man arguments.

----------


## Aahz

> Mary Sue is actually quite clearly defined, it's just used by most people in the wrong context. There are many examples of Mary Sue characters outside fan fiction however they are rarely the characters you would associate with the title. Some might say the phrase developed from it's initial meaning, however imo it's degenerated into a term used to reinforce stereotypes and straw man arguments.


The problem is that the "self-insertion character" is outside of fanfiction harder to proof imo.

----------


## heyevaxx

Since this is an appreciation thread I thought I'd mention I just figured out the _most important_ thing about DC's Rebirth:

*Cassandra Cain's Batgirl will remain as the longest running Batgirl in a self-title for at least 73 more months!*




> ... a Mary Sue is not simply an overpowered female character, it is also not a female character who can beat your favourite  male character.


I think this hits the nail on the head. There's a surprising negative undercurrent about Cass Cain since she's returned and it is mostly based on her fighting skills. She has so many interesting qualities - good and bad - other than fighting that make her compelling, but her hand to hand seems to really bother some comics people.

Sadly, it seems that just like with BRE, Detective Comics will periodically set off "Cass was a Mary Sue" or "Cass is over powered" or "Cass fans are complainer" comments.

I wish folks would just enjoy comics and let the stuff they don't dig slide. I know I've got toons I don't like but I try to be understanding that others do like them. Different strokes so to speak.

----------


## Carabas

> I think this hits the nail on the head. There's a surprising negative undercurrent about Cass Cain since she's returned and it is mostly based on her fighting skills. She has so many interesting qualities - good and bad - other than fighting that make her compelling, but her hand to hand seems to really bother some comics people.


Well, in a way it's a bit like having a Flash who has many interesting qualities - good and bad, but isn't especially fast compared to his non-speedster peers, no where near the fastest man alive. Or a Green Arrow who is good with a bow and arrow, but Batman and Green Lantern are just as good while Cyborg and Lex Luthor are better.

----------


## Punisher007

It's why I've started to loathe hearing the term "Mary Sue" used, it's been so completely twisted beyond it's original meaning that it has no real meaning anymore.  These days, it mostly just translates to "catch word that I'll throw out for a character that I don't personally like."  And, physical strength is NOT the sole parameter.

If Cass were truly a "Mary Sue," then she'd be the best fighter, and the best detective (or at least one of the best), become an expert/adept at undercover work, have great social skills, be great with computers, a natural-born leader, and have no real character flaws or major mistakes, etc.  And she'd accomplish all of this incredibly quickly after showing up.  Basically she'd be Bruce, Dick, Tim, Barbara, etc all wrapped into one, but be as good at it or even better than them with no real explanation.

But of all of those, her only immediate skill was fighting (which is all that she'd been trained practically since birth to do, so it makes sense).  She had to work at the other stuff, and it took time/effort on her part.

----------


## Lhynn

Mary sue is a perfect character with fake flaws, that is more capable than anyone else yet her ranking is low.

Cassandra is not a mary sue, tho she has had obscene plot armor very often.

----------


## Punisher007

Pretty much every Bat-character has that.

----------


## Carabas

> Mary sue is a perfect character with fake flaws, that is more capable than anyone else yet her ranking is low.
> 
> Cassandra is not a mary sue, tho she has had obscene plot armor very often.


Obscene plot armor is a trait the entire Bat-clan shares. I'd even say it's basically a basic requirement to surviving more than three issues as a superhero, whether you're a puny human or godly Kryptonian.

----------


## Lhynn

Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.
I get that shes a good fighter, but jumping in her defense is insane. especially considering other characters like steph, jason or tim have paid dearly for much smaller lapses in judgement.

She may not be a mary sue, but she has been a writers pet about as much as bruce and damian have. And far more than any other member of the batfamily ever has. Excluding maybe harper.

----------


## lucius121

> Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.
> I get that shes a good fighter, but jumping in her defense is insane. especially considering other characters like steph, jason or tim have paid dearly for much smaller lapses in judgement.
> 
> She may not be a mary sue, but she has been a writers pet about as much as bruce and damian have. And far more than any other member of the batfamily ever has. Excluding maybe harper.


In the first issue of batman, he was steering an aeroplane from the outside, while riding on the roof.

Jason somehow managed to defeat Lady Shiva I h2h combat.

Dick was able to dodge a bullet fired at him at point blank range having just survived jumping out of a 3rd floor window.

I could go on, picking certain instances where characters do ridiculous things, Cass is not the only in the bay family to get this treatment and she certainly isn't the worst offender.

----------


## Carabas

> Alright, explain to me one instance plot armor more blatant than getting bursted down with a machine gun and no bullet ever landing near a deadly area, or being able to listen to something that moves faster than the speed of sound, or being able to outfight an alien god that can move and act at speeds superiors than the speed of light.


Batman's able to jump from a rooftop and swing away on a batline with one arm, and somehow keeps his arm attached to his body and not even have it dislocated.

Also, Batman has also dodged machinegun fire, has listened to things that are faster than the speed of sound (every superhero who has ever teamed up with the Flash has done that), and has given Superman a good fight.

----------


## Lhynn

> In the first issue of batman, he was steering an aeroplane from the outside, while riding on the roof.


Yeah, hes batman, its the kind of stupid crap he pulls. I mentioned him before.




> Jason somehow managed to defeat Lady Shiva I h2h combat.


Bringing up new 52 garbage now?




> Dick was able to dodge a bullet fired at him at point blank range having just survived jumping out of a 3rd floor window.


Not as much dodging a bullet as merely getting out of the way. Its not exactly an impossible feat, especially considering its more you being faster than the other guy, not than the bullet.




> I could go on, picking certain instances where characters do ridiculous things


Im sure you could, but none of that defined those characters, while it did define cassandra.




> Cass is not the only in the bay family to get this treatment and she certainly isn't the worst offender.


Nope, thatd be bruce. But she is a very close second, and had and the ratio issue/jumping the shark does not favor her either.

----------


## lucius121

none of those moments defined the characters I mentioned and the moments you mentioned did not define Cass for anyone except you. I could mention Tim's ridiculous intellectual achievements or Stephs apparent hacking prowess but there is no point I don't resent these characters for their heroic feats, I enjoy them.

----------


## Lhynn

Dont resent them either. As for tims ridiculous intellectual achievements, they were set up, the preparation was there and not shown in a flashback when convenient. We had *years* of this set up, we saw his mind go from being a normals kid one to an analitical one that could outthink pretty much anyone, he gained this tru effort and experience.
We see him developing his skills with computers, trying and failing at new things, like carring a single hand keyboard and listening on internet search results with voice programs, we constantly see him try and fail until he finds something that works.
We see steph in over her head, we see her coping with her mistakes and growing due to them. We see cass kicking ass in ways that would make spiderman jealous and his spidersense look like a useless gimmick.

Again, you seem to believe im saying shes a bad character, this is not the case. But she did nuke the fridge plenty of times in her solo, so many times that it basically became her character and role within the batfamily.

----------


## heyevaxx

Since this is an _appreciation thread_ I thought I'd do some appreciating.

I'm very happy with Cassandra's Detective Comics intro! I thought JTIV wrote Cass well in the BRE issues he scripted and he came through again with DC934:
1) Cass protects children
2) By her appearance and body language she intimidates just like Batman
3) Cass is a great fighter
4) She shows compassion
5) And she only says a single word

I love her dramatic landing pic plus her hugging a kid and holding her hand over her eyes and saying "Safe" - classic Cass Cain!

*The last Gotham super you want to see when slave trading children:*


*What's old is new - Cass has empathy, especially for children:*

----------


## Lhynn

Yeah, her appearance on detective comics 934 was great.

----------


## lucius121

I'm interested to see where the character goes, looking forward to her interaction with Batwoman. I may even get used to that earless kinky mask she wears.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah, hes batman, its the kind of stupid crap he pulls. I mentioned him before..


And here's the basic crux of the argument that Cass is a mary sue. Cass can't do the same impossible things that every other Bat does...because reasons.

----------


## Caivu

> I'm interested to see where the character goes, looking forward to her interaction with Batwoman. I may even get used to that earless kinky mask she wears.


I've been wondering how Cass will react to their last names being basically identical. I could also see it as a starting point for Cass learning to read.

----------


## berserkerclaw

I cant wait for detectives third arc focus on cass. Also for Lady Shivas upcominh appearence

----------


## Caivu

> I cant wait for detectives third arc focus on cass. Also for Lady Shivas upcominh appearence


Say what now? Any of this been confirmed anywhere?

Edit: Never mind, found the interview where he talks about it.

----------


## Sardorim

That Mask just doesn't go with the outfit.

----------


## Zainu

> That Mask just doesn't go with the outfit.


The mask doesn't work without the pointy ears.
If you're going to go with the hood, then show her face(she can cover up with a eye mask, like her blood mask from B&RE)

Don't try to keep both. They mash horribly. Even I find it hard to stomach as a Cass fan. The only moments where Cass appears tolerable in Detective is her out of mask panels.

----------


## The Whovian

> The mask doesn't work without the pointy ears.
> Likewise, if you're going to go with the hood, then show her face(she can cover up with a eye mask, ala her blood mask from B&RE)
> Don't try to keep both. They mash horribly. Even I find it hard to stomach as a Cass fan. The only moments where Cass appears tolerable in Detective is her out of mask panels.


Yeah, I don't like the mask either. Just go back to her pre-New 52 look

----------


## Caivu

I'm in the minority, but I'm fine with no ears.

----------


## Punisher007

I like that they're apparently keeping her "fascination with ballet" thing from _Eternal_, it suits her I think.

----------


## JediKage

Well Dance and Martial Arts do have no shortage of common ground that is for sure. So I would agree. Is Cass good in Detective? I don't really care about Tim or Steph but I do love Cass and am fine with Batwoman.

----------


## Caivu

> Is Cass good in Detective? I don't really care about Tim or Steph but I do love Cass and am fine with Batwoman.


So far, so good. She's been appropriately taciturn and has been shown protecting children, as she should. Batwoman recognizes her skills as a fighter but also pointed out that she has no teamwork skills, which is a very fair assessment.

----------


## billee0918

Really loving seeing Cass back in action, in Detective.
Some good scenes with her this week. Love the costume, even the Orphan name is growing on me (please,never go back to Black Bat..ughhh)

----------


## ×RockinRobyn×

I'm glad that they're keeping her interest in ballet, but I hope she also finds other interests.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I'm glad that they're keeping her interest in ballet, but I hope she also finds other interests.


Welcome RockinRobyn

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Really loving seeing Cass back in action, in Detective.
> Some good scenes with her this week. Love the costume, even the Orphan name is growing on me (please,never go back to Black Bat..ughhh)


I don't think you need to worry about that:




> @JamesTheFourth
> Cass will always have a lonely side to her, a distance from the world. Black Bat didn't speak to that. Orphan does.





> @JamesTheFourth  Jul 14
> Orphan is a name that she can wield that could serve her far outside of Gotham.





> @JamesTheFourth  Jul 14
> A name, where if we build her right, Orphan becomes a DC character, not a Batman character.


And I agree, having a name that's not tied to Batfamily gives more mobility between media.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> And I agree, having a name that's not tied to Batfamily gives more mobility between media.


How, exactly?

Batman is easily the most popular DC property. And frankly, Cass' character is the easiest to utilize in any of his forms (cartoons, movies, etc). Being less Bat doesn't make Cass more viable, it makes her less.

----------


## Aioros22

That being so, "Black Bat" isn`t viable a moniker. 

When was she ever called so, by the way? Am I drawing a blank?

----------


## Caivu

> That being so, "Black Bat" isn`t viable a moniker. 
> 
> When was she ever called so, by the way? Am I drawing a blank?


It was around the time she was operating solo in Hong Kong, basically just prior to the New 52.

----------


## Vanguard-01

> How, exactly?
> 
> Batman is easily the most popular DC property. And frankly, Cass' character is the easiest to utilize in any of his forms (cartoons, movies, etc). Being less Bat doesn't make Cass more viable, it makes her less.


Actually, if the success of the MCU teaches us anything, it's that a character doesn't need to be tied to any famous names in order to be successful in other media. Just look at Guardians of the Galaxy. Not a single character in that movie was known to the general public prior to that movie. Not a single known MCU character showed up in it, except for Thanos, and he isn't even a character right now. He's "The big purple guy who shows up in the end credits scenes." Guardians is the first (and I believe so far the only) time we even heard his name. 

DC/WB could put out an "Orphan" movie a few years from now, and as long as they make it look cool and market it right, people will go to see it. If Cass's connection to Batman is revealed in either a previous Batman movie or within the "Orphan" movie itself, that'll just be kind of a cool bonus for people.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Actually, if the success of the MCU teaches us anything, it's that a character doesn't need to be tied to any famous names in order to be successful in other media. Just look at Guardians of the Galaxy. Not a single character in that movie was known to the general public prior to that movie. Not a single known MCU character showed up in it, except for Thanos, and he isn't even a character right now. He's "The big purple guy who shows up in the end credits scenes." Guardians is the first (and I believe so far the only) time we even heard his name. 
> 
> DC/WB could put out an "Orphan" movie a few years from now, and as long as they make it look cool and market it right, people will go to see it. If Cass's connection to Batman is revealed in either a previous Batman movie or within the "Orphan" movie itself, that'll just be kind of a cool bonus for people.


MU characters are Marvel characters, not DC, and one movie does not a trend make. DC characters are very different from Marvel (which I feel is neither good nor bad, just sayin')

Hell, look at Suicide Squad, and how heavily it's leaning on Batman to 'work'.

More than that, movies are not the only medium out there. Cartoons, straight to DVD movies, etc. The farther away Cass gets from Batman, where she was introduced and always intended for, the farther she gets from those.

More than that, she brings diversity to the Bat fam, which is never a bad thing.

----------


## Jcogginsa

Here's a crazy idea: What if Cass Became the Spectre? It'd be a temporary thing obviously, but I think it could make for an interesting read

----------


## Agent Z

> MU characters are Marvel characters, not DC, and one movie does not a trend make. DC characters are very different from Marvel (which I feel is neither good nor bad, just sayin')
> 
> Hell, look at Suicide Squad, and how heavily it's leaning on Batman to 'work'.
> 
> More than that, movies are not the only medium out there. Cartoons, straight to DVD movies, etc. The farther away Cass gets from Batman, where she was introduced and always intended for, the farther she gets from those.
> 
> More than that, she brings diversity to the Bat fam, which is never a bad thing.


OTOH, one could make the argument we have yet to see it really tried with the DC characters. 

And it isn't just one movie. Blade was the first successful Marvel film adaptation despite even most comic fans being unfamiliar with him. 

Yes, Suicide Squad features Batman and some of his villains but how much of that is studio insecurity that the concept can't stand on its own?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> OTOH, one could make the argument we have yet to see it really tried with the DC characters. 
> 
> And it isn't just one movie. Blade was the first successful Marvel film adaptation despite even most comic fans being unfamiliar with him. 
> 
> Yes, Suicide Squad features Batman and some of his villains but how much of that is studio insecurity that the concept can't stand on its own?


DC has like 5-6 characters with 90% of the remaining universe extensions of said characters, he's right there's no comparison between both.

Blade movies are a borderline flop by modern cbm standards, what happened then is rather irrelevant. What they have is cult status, not necessarily major critical and box office success.

The biggest draws of this SS movie are pretty much Batman and his characters.

----------


## Carabas

> DC has like 5-6 characters with 90% of the remaining universe extensions of said characters, he's right there's no comparison between both.
> 
> Blade movies are a borderline flop by modern cbm standards, what happened then is rather irrelevant. What they have is cult status, not necessarily major critical and box office success.
> 
> The biggest draws of this SS movie are pretty much Batman and his characters.


Blade, of course, originally was an extension of Hannibal King. He was a side-character in Tomb Of Dracula, not the star.

Much like Harley Quinn, he went on to do bigger things on his own.

----------


## VolcanikTiger86

Could some tell me what codename Cass should have or which would be most popular just wondering what to call her in a story I'm writing.

----------


## ceroxide

> Could some tell me what codename Cass should have or which would be most popular just wondering what to call her in a story I'm writing.


personally I like Black-Bat but I think majority of people prefer Batgirl

----------


## Aahz

> And it isn't just one movie. Blade was the first successful Marvel film adaptation despite even most comic fans being unfamiliar with him.


I would even be sure that the general audience was aware that Blade is Based on a comic.

And I think that movies like Blade or Punisher (or something like 30 Days of Night or Road to Pedition) that aren't really superhero movies are really good examples for such a discussion.

----------


## Carabas

> Could some tell me what codename Cass should have or which would be most popular just wondering what to call her in a story I'm writing.


My ideal Cass book has her no longer connected to Batman, globetrotting around the world, not using any codename. The book is simply called "Cain".

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> My ideal Cass book has her no longer connected to Batman, globetrotting around the world, not using any codename. The book is simply called "Cain".


Yeah, I'm all for that.  Shang-Chi-esque book with her dealing with spy organizations, the League of Assassins, crime syndicates, more covert super-type-threats.  

'Daughter of Cain' would be a good name for the book, I've always thought.

----------


## ceroxide

> Yeah, I'm all for that.  Shang-Chi-esque book with her dealing with spy organizations, the League of Assassins, crime syndicates, more covert super-type-threats.  
> 
> 'Daughter of Cain' would be a good name for the book, I've always thought.


so essentially... Cain Agents of Spyral?

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> so essentially... Cain Agents of Spyral?


No, not part of an organization or anything like that.  Just alone, without much fancy gear, etc. 

Bat-people tend to stumble into stuff.  ^_^

----------


## Caivu

> 'Daughter of Cain' would be a good name for the book, I've always thought.


This made me remember that now that Cass is back, there's a perfect excuse to bring the Religion of Crime back sometime down the line.

----------


## Carabas

> This made me remember that now that Cass is back, there's a perfect excuse to bring the Religion of Crime back sometime down the line.


That was never related to Cassandra Cain.
It was all about Kate Kane and biblical Cain AKA Vandal Savage.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> That was never related to Cassandra Cain.
> It was all about Kate Kane and biblical Cain AKA Vandal Savage.


In the new continuity Cain no longer Vandal either.

----------


## Caivu

> That was never related to Cassandra Cain.
> It was all about Kate Kane and biblical Cain AKA Vandal Savage.


I know that. But the reason they picked Kate was largely due to the name similarity. After she survived, that caused a schism, with one faction believing that since Kate survived, their prophecy obviously wasn't talking about her. That group went on to accept Beth's "death" as fulfillment of the prophecy, but since she's not dead, either... you can see where this could lead.

----------


## Zainu

> Yeah, I'm all for that.  Shang-Chi-esque book with her dealing with spy organizations, the League of Assassins, crime syndicates, more covert super-type-threats.  
> 
> 'Daughter of Cain' would be a good name for the book, I've always thought.


Yeah, my ideal book would be "*Cassandra and the Renegades*" Like Jason's *Rhato*. Only, I chose Azrael and Onyx because I like the dynamic that the two had with Cass in *No Man's Land* and Cass's *Batgirl* book respectively. Azrael's conversations can more than enough make up for Cass's quiet communication, and Onyx has a great dynamic relationship with Cass(they teamed up several times and were pretty awesome together). I even prefer Onyx and Cass's friendship/partnership over Cass and Steph. Since Onyx understands Cass much better, and it isn't as much as a utilitarian friendship as Steph and Cass relationship was.

It would be Onyx, Cass and Azrael, traveling around the world(maybe retracing the places that Cass traveled through while she was evading Cain and running into people that she helped before meeting Batman). Foiling local plots, attending secret martial arts tournaments, underground fighting rings, and preventing the works of assassins. Vacationing in exotic locales, having fun with local people, and dancing in the streets(Cass just loves to jam and move her body to the beat. Onyx would definitely love to party too, and Az could be roped in and introduced to things). Maybe even showing themselves to be the inheritors of the spirit/adventure of Bronze Tiger, Shiva and Richard Dragon's earlier team. Of course, this new team would have a different(and fun) dynamic, and it would be nice to show the difference between the two. Maybe a big showdown;Cass, Az and Onyx versus Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger. Further flesh out the League of Assassins(whom Cass and Onyx have varying degrees of relationships too--some strained or not, JP could bring the position of an outsider). Some undercover work, whether in LoA or European/Asian/African crime organizations. They are my dream team. Plus guest appearances from DC martial artists, assassins or current/former Gothamites! Maybe a team fight against Rhato(though I'm not sure how they would take on Bizarro or Artemis, who are in a different weight class).


"You want to play, baby girl? Lets play!" Total badass. I want to also post that war games one where she knocked the eff out of everyone, despite being beaten bloody and forced down on her knees, but CBR only lets me use 3 pictures per post. I also love this fierce big sister attitude that she has towards Cass^




*DC~ Hire me to write it. You can pay me in Cass's Batgirl trade reprints(which I would plant everywhere with READ ME post-its, to entice more fans).
*


---------------------
Also, I would consider Connor Hawke to be a better position(?) for standing in for Richard Dragon(Cass-Shiva, Conner-Dragon, Onyx-Bronze Tiger, something like that), but I think that Connor's personality doesn't present as much of a contrast to Cass's. They would work well together(and as a couple; imagine the cute kung fu babies they could make), but it wouldn't make for as much as an interesting book since they're both rather straight-to-the-point and taciturn. Onyx's quick wit with Azrael's overly talkative introspection and Cass's quiet way of communicating could compliment each other nicely. Two talkative members who make up for the quiet one. Rather than a team where it's Cass being quiet, Connor being semi-quiet, and Onyx doing majority of the chatting. 

They still make a nice team-up though. If I wrote the book, Connor would definitely make a well highlighted guest appearance.

----------


## Zainu

Guys, I noticed that there's no Cass avatars in the user predefined avatars(DC: Batman). There's several Barbara Gordon ones, and one Stephanie Brown, but Cass doesn't have any(not even under the C section). I made a thread to ask the mods to put up a predefined avatar for Cass fans to choose, and put up 6 of my favorite Cassie Batgirl icons. You guys are welcome to go over to the thread and decide on which icon you like the best, or to post any icons that you think would be better.

Link to the thread.

----------


## Nick Miller

they have to do something about her costume and code name, its just awful ..............

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> Yeah, my ideal book would be "*Cassandra and the Renegades*" Like Jason's *Rhato*. Only, I chose Azrael and Onyx because I like the dynamic that the two had with Cass in *No Man's Land* and Cass's *Batgirl* book respectively. Azrael's conversations can more than enough make up for Cass's quiet communication, and Onyx has a great dynamic relationship with Cass(they teamed up several times and were pretty awesome together). I even prefer Onyx and Cass's friendship/partnership over Cass and Steph. Since Onyx understands Cass much better, and it isn't as much as a utilitarian friendship as Steph and Cass relationship was.


*snips rest*

Some good ideas, here.  :)

----------


## millernumber1

So, James Tynion has said that after Steph and Clayface's arc, The Victim Syndicate, there will be a Cass/Orphan centered arc of Tec. What do people think will happen? Tynion has promised not to magically give her language, but I do think there needs to be more issues like Batman and Robin Eternal #13, where you see her character even without many words. She's been getting awesome moments, but I would love to see some developing relationships between her and the rest of the team.

----------


## Caivu

> So, James Tynion has said that after Steph and Clayface's arc, The Victim Syndicate, there will be a Cass/Orphan centered arc of Tec. What do people think will happen? Tynion has promised not to magically give her language, but I do think there needs to be more issues like Batman and Robin Eternal #13, where you see her character even without many words. She's been getting awesome moments, but I would love to see some developing relationships between her and the rest of the team.


I think it would be absolutely amazing if one of the issues in Cass's arc is completely silent.


Lady Shiva is supposed to return in this arc, and if that's true then the plot basically writes itself: Shiva wants Cass, and the team doesn't want her to have Cass. I'll try to break this down into six issues:

1: Tying up loose ends from Victim Syndicate, Shiva arrives in Gotham, maybe surprising Cass and catching her alone as the cliffhanger.
2: Shiva and Cass fight across Gotham's rooftops, with Shiva trying to convince Cass to stand down and join her. The rest of the team gets word of it and heads out to help. Maybe some Cass flashbacks here.
3: The rest of the team fights Shiva, who as per her MO in this continuity disables them with a bunch of poisons, gas bombs, and other tricks. But it's a solid fight for everyone. Shiva reveals that she knows that Tim Drake is dead, and offers an exchange: Give me Cassandra, and I'll give you a way to restore your friend. A Lazarus pit.
4: Batman stays behind in Gotham with Harper and Clayface, leaving Batwoman and Spoiler to head off with Cass and Shiva, with Tim's cryogenically frozen body in tow (possibly some arguing amongst the Bat-team about this). Tensions run high during the trip. Cass starts becoming a bit more friendly toward Shiva, starting to see her as a mother.
5: Arrival at the pit, which is located in a secret League of Assassins stronghold in a far-off country. A few flashbacks about Cass's time training with David Cain to indicate she's seeing similarities with him and Shiva. Tim gets pitted.
6: Tim recovers from his resurrection, mentions that he remembers odd things (this is him regaining his pre-Flashpoint memories). Something causes Cass to remember that Shiva is likely going to be just as bad as David, and she turns on Shiva. The team gangs up on Shiva and beats the crap out of her and whatever minions are present and escapes.

----------


## millernumber1

Where's the source for Shiva showing up in Cass's arc?

I love your breakdowns, even though I am still not convinced that Tim will actually die (I'm on the "retiring/taking a break" train right now).

I don't know if Tynion would want to do a silent team book, but if he did, that would be pretty good. I still hold up Batman and Robin Eternal #13 as a fantastic comic on all fronts - art, cover, writing, characterization - it's got everything.

----------


## Caivu

> Where's the source for Shiva showing up in Cass's arc?


This interview, very last paragraph:

http://comicsalliance.com/james-tyni...rth-interview/




> And we will be doing different things as we move forward. We just told the big story of [Cassandra's] father, but there’s still a big story connected to who her mother is, and whether or not that’s going to lead to the same place it did in old continuity. What is Lady Shiva up to these days? We’re going to be diving into that. The second arc of the Detective run is a Spoiler story, the third is a Cassandra Cain story, so that’s where we’re ending the whole first year of the book. It’s a big story that I’m very excited to tell.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Where's the source for Shiva showing up in Cass's arc?
> 
> I love your breakdowns, even though I am still not convinced that Tim will actually die (I'm on the "retiring/taking a break" train right now).
> 
> I don't know if Tynion would want to do a silent team book, but if he did, that would be pretty good. I still hold up Batman and Robin Eternal #13 as a fantastic comic on all fronts - art, cover, writing, characterization - it's got everything.


Same, I don't see Tim dying either.

----------


## Red obin

Before I was not fussed by Cass and didn't know why she was so popular. However I have read some of her series ( specifically Steph Brown issues as I am a huge Steph fan and enjoyed her a lot) I also loved the batgirl Robin bludhaven crossover.

----------


## Punisher007

I still want her and Steph to get a "buddy cop" team-up book.  It could be really fun.

----------


## EmeraldGladiator

loved Zainu's story concept. I am really enjoying this run of Detective comics and I really hope that JPV's Azrael joins the team very soon. I think he could add a very unique dynamic to the team and I would love to see JPV having lots of interaction with Cassandra since they are my two favorite Bat family supporting characters.

----------


## El_Gato

What are the chances of Cass showing up in the DCEU? She's one of my favorite Bat family members! I think she has a good chance if DC really wants to bring in that money from Asia.

----------


## Carabas

> What are the chances of Cass showing up in the DCEU? She's one of my favorite Bat family members! I think she has a good chance if DC really wants to bring in that money from Asia.


The movies? Zero.

I can see her pop up in one of the tv series, but not as somebody connected to Batman in any way at all.

----------


## Agent Z

How well do you think Greg Rucka would do writing Cass?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> The movies? Zero.
> 
> I can see her pop up in one of the tv series, but not as somebody connected to Batman in any way at all.


I think she has a greater chance than most Bat people of showing up in a movie. Her origin is separate from Bruce, and allows him the ability to have a sidekick without the moral responsibility of having both trained and pushed her into combat.

But then, Jason Todd's already dead in the DC movie verse, so who knows?

----------


## millernumber1

> How well do you think Greg Rucka would do writing Cass?


Rucka tends to love wordy characters so much, it doesn't feel as natural as others. However, he did write that Veil comic, which I didn't read, but I thought that had a wordless main character? He does have tonal similarities to Puckett's bleakness from the first 30 or so issues of Cass's solo series.

----------


## Aahz

> I think she has a greater chance than most Bat people of showing up in a movie. Her origin is separate from Bruce, and allows him the ability to have a sidekick without the moral responsibility of having both trained and pushed her into combat.


I think that it is quite hard to really explain what her deal is whitout focussing the movie on her. Or you end up with something like Katana on Suicids Squad, who didn't really added anything to the movie.

Cass is imo a character that doesn't really work as support character, she needs to be one of the leads.

----------


## Carabas

> Rucka tends to love wordy characters so much, it doesn't feel as natural as others. However, he did write that Veil comic, which I didn't read, but I thought that had a wordless main character? He does have tonal similarities to Puckett's bleakness from the first 30 or so issues of Cass's solo series.


Forever Calisle, main character of Lazarus, is many things, but overly wordy is not one of them. Rucka does very well with the strong, silent type. I mean, he did write a very good Batman, right?

----------


## Agent Z

> Forever Calisle, main character of Lazarus, is many things, but overly wordy is not one of them. Rucka does very well with the strong, silent type. I mean, he did write a very good Batman, right?


I haven't read that book but, the main character is called Forever?

----------


## Cowtools

> Forever Calisle, main character of Lazarus, is many things, but overly wordy is not one of them. Rucka does very well with the strong, silent type. I mean, he did write a very good Batman, right?


He also wrote an excellent Punisher run, where the Punisher barely said anything, but still managed to have deep, interesting interactions with everyone. That's an approach that could work for Cass.




> I haven't read that book but, the main character is called Forever?


It makes sense in context.

----------


## millernumber1

> Forever Calisle, main character of Lazarus, is many things, but overly wordy is not one of them. Rucka does very well with the strong, silent type. I mean, he did write a very good Batman, right?


Forever isn't nearly as taciturn as Cass. She's perfectly articulate, just not terribly well socialized. Though her backstory is pretty similar to both Cass and Black Widow's (and any supersoldier project, really).

He wrote a good Batman, but his Batman tended to be a presence more than a main character. His main characters during his Batman run were almost always Sasha Bordeaux or Renee Montoya.

But like I said, I haven't read Veil.

----------


## Carabas

> I haven't read that book but, the main character is called Forever?


It indeed makes sense in context.

It's dystopian science fiction set in a vague but not too far away future. Civilisation has largely collapsed, and the cause seems to be the gigantic gap in power between the dozen or so families who now rule the world in a feudal kind of system, and the rest of humanity.
It's a bit like Game Of Thrones with a lot less sex: intrigue, politics, swordfights, trials by combat... 

And it's IMO the best thing Rucka's ever done except perhaps Queen & Country.

----------


## millernumber1

> It indeed makes sense in context.
> 
> It's dystopian science fiction set in a vague but not too far away future. Civilisation has largely collapsed, and the cause seems to be the gigantic gap in power between the dozen or so families who now rule the world in a feudal kind of system, and the rest of humanity.
> It's a bit like Game Of Thrones with a lot less sex: intrigue, politics, swordfights, trials by combat... 
> 
> And it's IMO the best thing Rucka's ever done except perhaps Queen & Country.


There's still a fair amount of sex, but much more tasteful than Game of Thrones. There's even incest in the first arc!  :Smile: 

I think it's very well done, though I personally love Rucka's Wonder Woman the most of the things he's done.

But anyway, the dystopia of the Lazarus universe is very much like the Gotham of Puckett's Batgirl - full of nihilistically unconquerable injustice, abuse, and doomed heroism. So I can see the argument. I just don't think Rucka would go for it at this point.

I personally would love to see a Cass team book by Kyle Higgins - he did a really good job with her in Gates of Gotham, and he's got a real sense for relationships in the Batfamily. And, of course, some Trevor McCarthy and Dustin Nguyen art wouldn't hurt.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

Any chance we can get the thread title updated to include "Orphan"? I know it's kind of a dumb name, but it would help the thread to feel relevant to Cass today. And I think there's much to be happy about her right now!

Though I'm curious - do you think that the upcoming Batwoman arcs to launch Kate's new ongoing are pushing Cass's arcs back?

----------


## Caivu

> Though I'm curious - do you think that the upcoming Batwoman arcs to launch Kate's new ongoing are pushing Cass's arcs back?


No. Ever since NotMM was announced, I figured we'd be getting two issues between each longer arc. Ben Percy is supposedly writing a two-issue story for 'Tec, so that's what I originally thought was going to be in January. It's not, of course, but it still fits that sequence. Unless something else changes, Cass's arc will start in #950.

----------


## Celgress

> What are the chances of Cass showing up in the DCEU? She's one of my favorite Bat family members! I think she has a good chance if DC really wants to bring in that money from Asia.


love it  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

Woohoo! Tynion responded to my tweet - https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...70185810874368

"Orphan's arc is an arc called City of Shadows that will start in February with TEC 950!"

Very exciting!

Ben Percy is the artist for Batwoman Begins - not the writer, I think.

----------


## Caivu

> Woohoo! Tynion responded to my tweet - https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...70185810874368
> 
> "Orphan's arc is an arc called City of Shadows that will start in February with TEC 950!"
> 
> Very exciting!
> 
> Ben Percy is the artist for Batwoman Begins - not the writer, I think.


Nice, that sounds like the secret League of Assassins city will show up, and/or could be a confirmation that the League of Shadows is real.

Ben Percy specifically tweeted that he was writing two issues though, not doing art. Those issues will be after Cass's arc.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nice, that sounds like the secret League of Assassins city will show up, and/or could be a confirmation that the League of Shadows is real.
> 
> Ben Percy specifically tweeted that he was writing two issues though, not doing art. Those issues will be after Cass's arc.


Picking up on the League of Shadows from Rise of the Batmen should be pretty awesome, especially since it was Cass's scene where we saw the black-eyed man!

Ah, interesting. I don't follow Percy - do you have that tweet? Is he drawing them as well?

----------


## Caivu

> Ah, interesting. I don't follow Percy - do you have that tweet? Is he drawing them as well?


https://twitter.com/benjamin_percy/s...21641839005696

Klaus Janson will be the artist.

----------


## millernumber1

Woah, Klaus Janson! That's pretty cool news! I hope that the guest spot doesn't derail the story too much. I prefer smaller character pieces if we're going to do that kind of break in the flow (sort of like what the Batwoman Begins arc seems like it will be).

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Woohoo! Tynion responded to my tweet - https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...70185810874368
> 
> "Orphan's arc is an arc called City of Shadows that will start in February with TEC 950!"
> 
> Very exciting!
> 
> Ben Percy is the artist for Batwoman Begins - not the writer, I think.


Finally!! some much needed badassness!! i mean fun-monster-fighting is good and all, and fighting the Colony guys was cool enough, but you know Cass takes the word "badass" to a whole new level  :Smile:  and hopefully we get to know more about Cassandra's past and new origin  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Cass and Clayface are becoming friends in the newest 'Tec, and it's adorable. It also makes a lot of sense, given that they're both relative outsiders compared to the rest of the team and that they're both an redemption arcs.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Cass and Clayface are becoming friends in the newest 'Tec, and it's adorable. It also makes a lot of sense, given that they're both relative outsiders compared to the rest of the team and that they're both an redemption arcs.


Yup, Cass was always good but did bad at one point of her young life, Clayface was bad but wants to become good.

----------


## millernumber1

Cass encouraging Basil to be good is so well done. It's also such a great continuation of the Bat symbol, and what happened in Batman and Robin Eternal #13.

----------


## Red obin

Some case goodness, i have really fell in love with the character recently.tumblr_mxzou33i2t1qh4dqzo1_500.jpg


casstaleoftwocities2lq.jpg

a1c5b6a486fe8c0f357a3f24298c27b2.jpg

----------


## Caivu

Cass in the new version of the DC Encyclopedia:

20161028_151842.jpg

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Blue eyes again? D:

[edit] Then again none of the physical traits besides hair color seem quite right. They basically just copied those from the (erroneous) No Man's Land bio.

----------


## Frontier

I miss Cass having a cape...

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I miss Cass having a cape...


I miss her being a Bat  :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> Cass in the new version of the DC Encyclopedia:
> 
> 20161028_151842.jpg


@Caivu
If you own that book could you help me to update this list?

----------


## Caivu

> @Caivu
> If you own that book could you help me to update this list?


Sure thing.

----------


## AJpyro

Cassandra sounds pretty cool. Do I need to read all of No Man's Land before diving into her solo?

----------


## Frontier

> Cassandra sounds pretty cool. Do I need to read all of No Man's Land before diving into her solo?


It's probably a fairly good introduction to her and her inductions as Batgirl. 

I think she shows up at the tail-end of the first volume that collects the whole story.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cassandra sounds pretty cool. Do I need to read all of No Man's Land before diving into her solo?


I read the solo before I read the specific NML stuff for her. I'd say go for the solo!

----------


## AJpyro

Thanks for the info.

----------


## Red obin

I always feel Cass has so much wasted potential, for various media. As much as I love Steph I realise why she is not used as much, as she works best with Tim,you need the potentially goofy clue aster etc. However, Cass would be easy to introduce, she can be linked to league of assassins or not. She can be introduced in light or dark stories.

----------


## The Whovian

> Cassandra sounds pretty cool. Do I need to read all of No Man's Land before diving into her solo?


You don't have to, but I would. It's a nice lead up to her solo series. And you are about to read some awesome comics!  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

I found this about Cass:

https://www.inverse.com/article/2446...ress-dc-comics

What is this of PACIFIC RIM?   :Confused:  DC plan use that actress as Cass... in Batfleck Film?

----------


## Carabas

> I found this about Cass:
> 
> https://www.inverse.com/article/2446...ress-dc-comics
> 
> What is this of PACIFIC RIM?   DC plan use that actress as Cass... in Batfleck Film?


No, former DC writer Damion Scott (who wrote the first 50-odd issues of the Cass-Batgirl ongoing and currently has no afiliation with DC and has about as much influence over the DC films as you do) thinks that actress would be a great Cassandra Cain.

----------


## adrikito

> No, former DC writer Damion Scott (who wrote the first 50-odd issues of the Cass-Batgirl ongoing and currently has no afiliation with DC and has about as much influence over the DC films as you do) thinks that actress would be a great Cassandra Cain.


Thanks.. I put this to know if anyone listen any new related to this... Ok. nothing..

I don´t see anything(except batfleck film) to use cassandra.. I don´t see her in ARROW despite Al Ghul.. You want see the character in the batfamily..

----------


## Lorendiac

> No, former DC writer Damion Scott (who wrote the first 50-odd issues of the Cass-Batgirl ongoing and currently has no afiliation with DC and has about as much influence over the DC films as you do) thinks that actress would be a great Cassandra Cain.


I don't think Damion Scott was ever credited as the _writer_ of a single issue of the old Cass-Batgirl monthly title. Kelley Puckett was writing most of the title's scripts for the first three years, and Damion was the regular penciler during that time (although he missed a couple of issues).

----------


## Aahz

With Katana already filling the slot of the mysterious, asian martial arts chick I don't think that an appearance of Cass in that likely. 

And I doubt that they would want to devote to much time in the movie for the origin of a support charcter (with the possible exception of Under the Red Hood or Son of Batman), which makes charters with an relativity easy origin (Tim, Duke, Luke, Harper, Kate, Carrie ...) or that are allready know by the general audience (Dick, Barbara) more lily than the ones with a more complex ones (Cass, Jean-Paul and to some extend Steph and Helena).

----------


## Aahz

Do I understand it correctly that Shiva would be as "eurasian maritial artist" according to this (it is from Question Annual #2 1989) only halfasian, which would make Cass to three quaters white?

----------


## Lorendiac

> Do I understand it correctly that Shiva would be as "eurasian maritial artist" according to this (it is from Question Annual #2 1989) only halfasian, which would make Cass to three quaters white?


I would say "no." Two reasons for this:

1. "Eurasian" is a *vague* word. It does not necessarily mean "one parent was Caucasian, and one parent was East Asian, and their child is a half-and-half mixture." It just implies that _some degree_ of racial mixing is believed to have occurred within a person's family tree _somewhere_ along the line!

2. But this entry does not commit itself to anything specific regarding just what sort of family tree Lady Shiva has! At the same time that it vaguely refers to her as "Eurasian," it also says her "origins are unknown." Which is another way of saying "at this time, we are *not* committing ourselves to anything regarding such nitpicking details as the ethnicities of her parents and their parents and so forth. We aren't even going to tell you the _names_ of any of her ancestors!"

So, given that the people who wrote that were bending over backwards to be _extremely vague_ about the background of the Post-Crisis version of Lady Shiva, I think it would be a huge mistake to blithely assume that this entry really tells us anything tangible regarding just what percentage of Lady Shiva's genetic heritage (or Cassandra's) is "white."

----------


## Aahz

It is still interesting that Shiva was apparently originally not intended to be fully Asian. And if she is called "Eurasian" when everything about her origin is unknown it has to be to a degree that is visible.

----------


## Caivu

Cass's arc in 'Tec will last through the spring:

Screenshot_20170113-015832.jpg

8 issues, I reckon.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass's arc in 'Tec will last through the spring:
> 
> Screenshot_20170113-015832.jpg
> 
> 8 issues, I reckon.


I'd say 7 or 8, yeah. That would take us to May, right? I know some Cass fans who will appreciate that.  :Smile:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

950 to 956 it seems

----------


## millernumber1

> 950 to 956 it seems


Aha! 7, just as I thought!  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Nice to know Cass's arc will be fairly lengthy (and hopefully that length will be used well)  :Smile: . 

I hope she sticks around with the team after this, though given by it's end she'll have been with the group around 18-20 issues, I guess she had a fairly lengthy run as a member (even if it might not feel like it).

----------


## millernumber1

> Nice to know Cass's arc will be fairly lengthy (and hopefully that length will be used well) . 
> 
> I hope she sticks around with the team after this, though given by it's end she'll have been with the group around 18-20 issues, I guess she had a fairly lengthy run as a member (even if it might not feel like it).


I doubt Cass will leave. Just the way I see it.

----------


## Caivu

> Aha! 7, just as I thought!


#950 is double-sized, so technically we're both right.

----------


## millernumber1

> #950 is double-sized, so technically we're both right.


Is it fully double sized - 40 pages of story content? DC's website says it's 48 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-950), compared to the normal 32 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-947). The normal comic has 20 pages of story content, meaning that 32 includes a cover (possibly 2 covers, if they're counting pages like comixology does, including both covers), and 10-11 pages of advertising content. 48 pages is 16 more pages than the norm, so I don't think it's possible to be fully 40 pages of story content. On the other hand, it is 8 more pages than the listed number for All-Star Batman (which is listed as 40 pages - http://www.dccomics.com/comics/all-s...-star-batman-1), and that title only has, I think, 4 extra pages of story content, and a lot of covers. So I think it's likely to have somewhere between 28-32 pages of story content, at least some of which are the Azrael story.

(I could go into price per page, but this post is clearly nerdy and boring enough  :Wink:  )

----------


## The Whovian

> Is it fully double sized - 40 pages of story content? DC's website says it's 48 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-950), compared to the normal 32 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-947). The normal comic has 20 pages of story content, meaning that 32 includes a cover (possibly 2 covers, if they're counting pages like comixology does, including both covers), and 10-11 pages of advertising content. 48 pages is 16 more pages than the norm, so I don't think it's possible to be fully 40 pages of story content. On the other hand, it is 8 more pages than the listed number for All-Star Batman (which is listed as 40 pages - http://www.dccomics.com/comics/all-s...-star-batman-1), and that title only has, I think, 4 extra pages of story content, and a lot of covers. So I think it's likely to have somewhere between 28-32 pages of story content, at least some of which are the Azrael story.
> 
> (I could go into price per page, but this post is clearly nerdy and boring enough  )


Sweeeeeeeet!

----------


## millernumber1

> Sweeeeeeeet!


Glad my nerdiness is amusing to some people!  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> Glad my nerdiness is amusing to some people!


Cass is one of my favorite DC characters. I have her first appearances, her whole series. I don't care for this new "Orphan" name they've given her, but I can live with it. And she's been great on 'Tec

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass is one of my favorite DC characters. I have her first appearances, her whole series. I don't care for this new "Orphan" name they've given her, but I can live with it. And she's been great on 'Tec


Nice! I read her whole series for the first time last year (or maybe two years ago, now - the new year screws up my sense of time  :Smile:  ). She's never going to be my very favorite character (that's Steph), but she's great, and I'm really enjoying how Tynion's been building her up. I do agree that Orphan isn't the greatest name for her, though. It's a shame that DC doesn't have the Batgirl title open, or have it franchiseable in universe like Batgirl Inc or something.

----------


## The Whovian

> Nice! I read her whole series for the first time last year (or maybe two years ago, now - the new year screws up my sense of time  ). She's never going to be my very favorite character (that's Steph), but she's great, and I'm really enjoying how Tynion's been building her up. I do agree that Orphan isn't the greatest name for her, though. It's a shame that DC doesn't have the Batgirl title open, or have it franchiseable in universe like Batgirl Inc or something.


I like Steph too. I don't care for Babs as Batgirl. Never did. I liked her as Oracle though. To me, Cass is the best Batgirl and Steph is the next best. But Steph is cool as Spoiler too. I don't care for what happened in the last issue of 'Tec though in regards to her. 

My hope is that when Tim comes back, Steph will come back to the fold.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like Steph too. I don't care for Babs as Batgirl. Never did. I liked her as Oracle though. To me, Cass is the best Batgirl and Steph is the next best. But Steph is cool as Spoiler too. I don't care for what happened in the last issue of 'Tec though in regards to her. 
> 
> My hope is that when Tim comes back, Steph will come back to the fold.


I'm pretty sure she will. Tynion has promised her story is just beginning, not ending, with Tec 947.  :Smile: 

But it's time for Cass to have a story!  :Smile:  Can it be next month yet?

----------


## Caivu

> Is it fully double sized - 40 pages of story content? DC's website says it's 48 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-950), compared to the normal 32 (http://www.dccomics.com/comics/detec...ive-comics-947). The normal comic has 20 pages of story content, meaning that 32 includes a cover (possibly 2 covers, if they're counting pages like comixology does, including both covers), and 10-11 pages of advertising content. 48 pages is 16 more pages than the norm, so I don't think it's possible to be fully 40 pages of story content. On the other hand, it is 8 more pages than the listed number for All-Star Batman (which is listed as 40 pages - http://www.dccomics.com/comics/all-s...-star-batman-1), and that title only has, I think, 4 extra pages of story content, and a lot of covers. So I think it's likely to have somewhere between 28-32 pages of story content, at least some of which are the Azrael story.
> 
> (I could go into price per page, but this post is clearly nerdy and boring enough  )


38 pages of story:

Screenshot_20170113-182926.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> 38 pages of story:
> 
> Attachment 43774


ALL MY MATH. ALL MY SPECULATION. OVERTURNED!

Haha. But I'm actually really happy. I love getting so much story content!

----------


## Caivu

Happy birthday, Cassandra Cain!

Some new art from 'Tec #950:

Screenshot_20170126-141527.jpg

Screenshot_20170126-142305.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

Happy birthday Cass!

----------


## Blight

So question. What are your hopes for this arc with Cassandra in Tec? Does anyone think Cass will get a costume change by the end of this arc? A more Bat-themed one? Will she be adopted (an issue Stephanier brought up in her arc)?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> So question. What are your hopes for this arc with Cassandra in Tec? Does anyone think Cass will get a costume change by the end of this arc? A more Bat-themed one? Will she be adopted (an issue Stephanier brought up in her arc)?


I think it's a bit too soon for adoption in my opinion. I don't want it to be rushed and thus feeling unearned (what a cruel thing to say), and I don't necessary want the one adopting being Bruce.

What I hope for the arc?

-Cass trying to interact with the civil world
-Cass learning the truth about her mom
-Cass crashing people's places in the middle of the night to eat all the cereal
-Cain/Kane joke
-Cass kicking ass

----------


## millernumber1

> So question. What are your hopes for this arc with Cassandra in Tec? Does anyone think Cass will get a costume change by the end of this arc? A more Bat-themed one? Will she be adopted (an issue Stephanier brought up in her arc)?


I hope that she gets some ears, yes.  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> I think it's a bit too soon for adoption in my opinion. I don't want it to be rushed and thus feeling unearned (what a cruel thing to say), and I don't necessary want the one adopting being Bruce.
> 
> What I hope for the arc?
> 
> -Cass trying to interact with the civil world
> -Cass learning the truth about her mom
> -Cass crashing people's places in the middle of the night to eat all the cereal
> -Cain/Kane joke
> -Cass kicking ass


WITH LUCK All your wishes will be fulfilled... I think that the Joke is the most difficult thing here.. but ALL are GOOD wishes.

----------


## The Whovian

> So question. What are your hopes for this arc with Cassandra in Tec? Does anyone think Cass will get a costume change by the end of this arc? A more Bat-themed one? Will she be adopted (an issue Stephanier brought up in her arc)?


-A costume change.
-A better code name.
-Show her as the superior fighter without any doubt.
-Nice interaction with the others and building relationships with them.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

This might sound weird but seeing Cass' apartment made me very happy...



... because it reminded me of her messy houses from her Batgirl series

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Happy Birthday Cass!  :Smile: 

She's in good hands now, with Tynion on Tec', and it looks like we'll finally see some Cass Cain badasseness again this time on Tec'.

Tec' #950 was a masterpiece, and i can't wait for #951!

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> This might sound weird but seeing Cass' apartment made me very happy...
> 
> 
> 
> ... because it reminded me of her messy houses from her Batgirl series


Yeah, its brings back memories  :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

Something I've been giving some thought to is whether or not Cass's view on killing would eventually evolve to the point she is at least willing to consider killing in self defense or defense of others. That would have been better than the "Ra's al Ghul" junior route they went.

----------


## adrikito

Detective Comics 950 review 10/10

http://www.newsarama.com/33149-best-...hy-thor-4.html

I put that because Cass is the most important character in this chapter.

----------


## millernumber1

> Something I've been giving some thought to is whether or not Cass's view on killing would eventually evolve to the point she is at least willing to consider killing in self defense or defense of others. That would have been better than the "Ra's al Ghul" junior route they went.


I don't follow - what do you mean by "Ra's al Ghul junion"?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Detective Comics 950 review 10/10
> 
> http://www.newsarama.com/33149-best-...hy-thor-4.html
> 
> I put that because Cass is the most important character in this chapter.


Tec 950 was also the best selling comic last week.

----------


## Agent Z

> I don't follow - what do you mean by "Ra's al Ghul junion"?


I meant when they had her turn evil and take over the League of Assassins.

----------


## shadowsgirl

I loved their Pre-Flashpoint relationship  :Big Grin: 

Batgirl 027_1.jpg

Batgirl 027_2.jpg

Batgirl 027_3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batgirl 027_4.jpg

Batgirl 027_5.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

Batgirl 027_6.jpg

Batgirl 027_7.jpg

Batgirl 027_8.jpg

----------


## Caivu

A peek from 'Tec #955:

8d67a069-2b01-4cdb-92fb-31b9d54f9903.jpg

----------


## Assam

Cassandra Cain is my favorite character in all of fiction. As such, like everyone else on this thread, all I want is for her to be happy. What would make her happy? (Besides chocolate ice cream, roses, ballet, Assam tea, and marrying Steph) Brenda. 

For those who don't remember, during Cass's time in Bludhaven, she befriended a woman named Brenda. She was awesome, and their friendship was awesome too. 

And then Geoff Johns killed her in Infinite Crisis...

Yeah, I wanna see her again in Rebirth. It's not healthy for these people to only be friends with other superheroes, and Brenda was a great character in her own right. 

Who else wants to see Brenda again?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

I'd like to see Cass have her own supporting characters beyond David Cain (though he was good).

----------


## Assam

> I'd like to see Cass have her own supporting characters beyond David Cain (though he was good).


During her original series, David was an absolutely fantastic character. Monstrous, but tragic. Loving and filled with regret. Shame no one has gotten him right since the original run.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Really? I think he's always been lame.

Oh look Bruce's teacher that never existed, he's the best.
He was Deadshot's teacher too, he's the best.
He fought Deathstroke for days (supposedly), he's the best.
He created Lady Shiva, he's the best.
He's peers with Bronze Tiger and Silver Monkey, he's the best.
He was Ra's al Ghul's top man, he's the best.

Actual showings= Zero, in the end just a(very) poor man's Deathstroke

----------


## Carabas

> Really? I think he's always been lame.
> 
> Oh look Bruce's teacher that never existed, he's the best.
> He was Deadshot's teacher too, he's the best.
> He fought Deathstroke for days (supposedly), he's the best.
> He created Lady Shiva, he's the best.
> He's peers with Bronze Tiger and Silver Monkey, he's the best.
> He was Ra's al Ghul's top man, he's the best.
> 
> Actual showings= Zero, in the end just a(very) poor man's Deathstroke


Bruce Wayne has had many teachers who never existed before.  And all of them have naturally been the best.

And he did not create Lady Shiva.

Cain's thing is more that he used to be the best, years ago, and now he's an over the hill old man who has wasted his life and just waants his daughter who he honestly loves to love him back.

Okey, I have no idea what New 52/current Cain is like.

----------


## Aahz

> Bruce Wayne has had many teachers who never existed before.  And all of them have naturally been the best.


In post flashpoint continuity, they they actually gave alot of details about Bruce training, and Cain was never mentioned.

And the way he was retconned in in Bruce, Floyds and Shivas background was really not that elegant. Useing an allready existing charcter, like Ducard (thats what Tomasi did with Maya), Kigiri or maybe even the Sensai, would have been better imo.

----------


## adrikito

> A peek from 'Tec #955:
> 
> 8d67a069-2b01-4cdb-92fb-31b9d54f9903.jpg


Tec 955 is the last chapter of League of Shadows, no?  :Confused:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Bruce Wayne has had many teachers who never existed before.  And all of them have naturally been the best.
> 
> And he did not create Lady Shiva.
> 
> Cain's thing is more that he used to be the best, years ago, and now he's an over the hill old man who has wasted his life and just waants his daughter who he honestly loves to love him back.
> 
> Okey, I have no idea what New 52/current Cain is like.


The ones that came out of nowhere also went nowhere wheras Cain was forced upon everyone's backstory. As Aahz mentioned Kirigi, Ducard, Tsuenemoto(however that is spelled) were actually fleshed.

He created Shiva in the Post Crisis universe.

Um what? he doesn't love Cass at all. Deathstroke is everything Cain wishes he could be.

As far Batman is specifically concerned Morgan Ducard/Nobody is Cain done right.

----------


## Carabas

> In post flashpoint continuity, they they actually gave alot of details about Bruce training, and Cain was never mentioned.
> 
> And the way he was retconned in in Bruce, Floyds and Shivas background was really not that elegant. Useing an allready existing charcter, like Ducard (thats what Tomasi did with Maya), Kigiri or maybe even the Sensai, would have been better imo.


They weren't looking for another existing teacher of Bruce's. They were creating Cassandra Cain's father. And fans would be just as bent out of shape if they had retconned that to be Henry Ducard.

----------


## Aahz

> They weren't looking for another existing teacher of Bruce's. They were creating Cassandra Cain's father. And fans would be just as bent out of shape if they had retconned that to be Henry Ducard.


They established quite early that Cain trained Bruce, and used that as explanation that Bruce knew why Cass was like she was.

----------


## Carabas

> The ones that came out of nowhere also went nowhere wheras Cain was forced upon everyone's backstory. As Aahz mentioned Kirigi, Ducard, Tsuenemoto(however that is spelled) were actually fleshed.


The only one I ever even heard of is Ducard. I mean, I know about a Kirigi, but he's a Daredevil character. 
Anway, what exactly is wrong about creating a new character?




> He created Shiva in the Post Crisis universe.


He definitely did not.




> Um what? he doesn't love Cass at all.


Oh, you read that Beechen crap, didn't you? It's bad for you and bears no resemblance to canon.

----------


## Carabas

> They established quite early that Cain trained Bruce, and used that as explanation that Bruce knew why Cass was like she was.


Yes, and?
Cain was always going to be Cass's father. It's why he's in the story and why he gets added to the (very, very long) list of Batman trainers.

----------


## Agent Z

> Deathstroke is everything Cain wishes he could be.


A hypocritical, petty creep who's also a rapist and has to mind control his own kids into loyalty?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> A hypocritical, petty creep who's also a rapist and has to mind control his own kids into loyalty?


Yeah Cain wishes he could do that, he's tried it all. Brainwashed kids, rape, murder, you name it.

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah Cain wishes he could do that, he's tried it all. Brainwashed kids, rape, murder, you name it.


Rapist too? Since when?
The rest of it pretty much is part and parcel of the whole League Of Assassins trainer thing.

Anyway, when has Cain ever shown envy of metas?

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah Cain wishes he could do that, he's tried it all. Brainwashed kids, rape, murder, you name it.


Yeah, um, no. Just no, dude.

----------


## Assam

> The only one I ever even heard of is Ducard. I mean, I know about a Kirigi, but he's a Daredevil character. 
> Anway, what exactly is wrong about creating a new character?
> 
> He definitely did not.
> 
> Oh, you read that Beechen crap, didn't you? It's bad for you and bears no resemblance to canon.


I'm sure he's a good guy in real life, but I really hope that he wakes up every morning stepping on a lego. 
And yeah, as shown consistently throughout Cass's original book, in his own twisted way, Cain really does love Cass, and would do anything for her. 

You mentioned not knowing about Cain in the New52. Yeah, they screwed him up pretty badly. He barely cared about Cass, if at all, and his loyalty was completely towards a villain named Mother.

----------


## Aahz

> Rapist too? Since when?


Don't know if you could call it rape, but his relation with Shiva and the circumstances of Cass birth seem a little bit wired for me (and who knows how old Shiva was back than ...).

And he apparently abducted lots of kids to train the in a similar way than Cass.

----------


## Assam

> Don't know if you could call it rape, but his relation with Shiva and the circumstances of Cass birth seem a little bit wired for me (and who knows how old Shiva was back than ...).
> 
> And he apparently abducted lots of kids to train the in a similar way than Cass.


Cain and Shiva's relationship seemed to be completely consensual. 

And he NEVER raped the kids he trained. If anyone even thought about laying a hand on Cass for example, well, Cass  could handle herself just fine, but if she couldn't, Cain would murder them in the most painful way imaginable.

----------


## Carabas

> Don't know if you could call it rape, but his relation with Shiva and the circumstances of Cass birth seem a little bit wired for me (and who knows how old Shiva was back than ...).


Well, there's nothing in the books that even vaguely hints at it, so rape probbaly is not the word you're looking for here.




> And he apparently abducted lots of kids to train the in a similar way than Cass.


Which most definitely is not rape either.

----------


## Zainu

> This might sound weird but seeing Cass' apartment made me very happy...
> 
> 
> 
> ... because it reminded me of her messy houses from her Batgirl series


I love that touch too. Though I gotta wonder, what's that cat carrier for? Did she adopt a stray? Ahhh, now I want to see Cass with a kitty  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Assam

> I love that touch too. Though I gotta wonder, what's that cat carrier for? Did she adopt a stray? Ahhh, now I want to see Cass with a kitty


It's no kitty, but there is an adorable fanfiction where Cass, Steph, and Harper adopt a stray dog, and Cass insists on naming it Batman.

----------


## Caivu

> I love that touch too. Though I gotta wonder, what's that cat carrier for? Did she adopt a stray? Ahhh, now I want to see Cass with a kitty


I read a post elsewhere that puts forth the idea that Cass collects these items because she sees other people with them, even though she probably doesn't have any idea what they're actually for. It's a way for her to try to fit in, at least according to the theory.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, there's nothing in the books that even vaguely hints at it, so rape probbaly is not the word you're looking for here.
> 
> Which most definitely is not rape either.


Not rape, but really unhealthy. Which usually happens when you murder someone's sister to make them into a suitable mother for your murderchild.

----------


## Carabas

> Not rape, but really unhealthy. Which usually happens when you murder someone's sister to make them into a suitable mother for your murderchild.


Killing her sister did not cause her DNA to change. If she was a suitable mother after than she already was one before. And she wouldn't become Lady Shiva until years later.

----------


## millernumber1

> Killing her sister did not cause her DNA to change. If she was a suitable mother after than she already was one before. And she wouldn't become Lady Shiva until years later.


I didn't write it! I'm just reporting on Gabrych's backstory.

----------


## Assam

> I didn't write it! I'm just reporting on Gabrych's backstory.


You know, a lot of Cass fans hate Gabrych, but, while he was no Pucket, I still think his run was far better than Horrocks's. 

He told some good stories, introduced Brenda, and actually tried to best to give Cass a half-way decent motivation for turning her back on her beliefs. i.e The destruction of Bludhaven prompting her to think that maybe Batman's ways weren't doing enough. 

Mind you, that idea got kicked like a puppy by Beechen, but this isn't the place to...wait, this is the Cass appreciation thread. Hating on Beechen is probably a common thing here! Wooh!

----------


## millernumber1

> You know, a lot of Cass fans hate Gabrych, but, while he was no Pucket, I still think his run was far better than Horrocks's. 
> 
> He told some good stories, introduced Brenda, and actually tried to best to give Cass a half-way decent motivation for turning her back on her beliefs. i.e The destruction of Bludhaven prompting her to think that maybe Batman's ways weren't doing enough. 
> 
> Mind you, that idea got kicked like a puppy by Beechen, but this isn't the place to...wait, this is the Cass appreciation thread. Hating on Beechen is probably a common thing here! Wooh!


Well, I hate Gabrych because he's the writer who publicly took credit for War Games, and has never expressed regret, unlike Willingham, Grayson, Simone, and Horrocks. But I'm a Steph fan first, so that's why it overwhelms my appreciation of what he did for Cass. Though I do think that his writing for the last arc of Cass's title wasn't nearly as affecting as it should have been - I blitzed through the series in a week for the first time one or two years ago, and I came to the end and wanted to be deeply moved, but simply wasn't.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I hate Gabrych because he's the writer who publicly took credit for War Games, and has never expressed regret, unlike Willingham, Grayson, Simone, and Horrocks. But I'm a Steph fan first, so that's why it overwhelms my appreciation of what he did for Cass. Though I do think that his writing for the last arc of Cass's title wasn't nearly as affecting as it should have been - I blitzed through the series in a week for the first time one or two years ago, and I came to the end and wanted to be deeply moved, but simply wasn't.


Wait, Gabrych was responsible for War Games?!!! I totally forgot about that! Okay, nice things said taken back, that storyline is pretty much right behind EvilCass as my most hated storyline. (Still annoyed that we never got to see Cass's reaction to Steph being alive. It should have been a beautiful moment)

----------


## millernumber1

> Wait, Gabrych was responsible for War Games?!!! I totally forgot about that! Okay, nice things said taken back, that storyline is pretty much right behind EvilCass as my most hated storyline. (Still annoyed that we never got to see Cass's reaction to Steph being alive. It should have been a beautiful moment)


I mean, he's not the only one, but he did take responsibility for planning War Crimes as part of planning War Games. Which means that not only did he blame Steph for her own death, but he also got rid of Leslie for no good reason!

And yes, Cass and Steph's reunion should have been a thing. But who was around and writing at the time who would have been able to do it justice?

----------


## Assam

> I mean, he's not the only one, but he did take responsibility for planning War Crimes as part of planning War Games. Which means that not only did he blame Steph for her own death, but he also got rid of Leslie for no good reason!
> 
> *And yes, Cass and Steph's reunion should have been a thing. But who was around and writing at the time who would have been able to do it justice*?


Was Simone still writing BoP? If so, she probably would have been the best bet, since she's said multiple times that she loves both characters, and has admitted that she screwed up her one time writing for Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> Was Simone still writing BoP? If so, she probably would have been the best bet, since she's said multiple times that she loves both characters, and has admitted that she screwed up her one time writing for Cass.


Simone's last issue of Birds of Prey was #108, which published July 2007. Steph wasn't officially "back" (as in, her face was revealed and she started interacting with other characters as Steph, not weird invisible-powers Spoiler) until June 2008. So Simone was writing Secret Six, I think, or something, but she wasn't on a book that I think would have been an open place for Steph and Cass to reunite.

----------


## Assam

> Simone's last issue of Birds of Prey was #108, which published July 2007. Steph wasn't officially "back" (as in, her face was revealed and she started interacting with other characters as Steph, not weird invisible-powers Spoiler) until June 2008. So Simone was writing Secret Six, I think, or something, but she wasn't on a book that I think would have been an open place for Steph and Cass to reunite.


In that case, yeah, I'm not sure there were any writers who would have been able to do the scene justice. Could have been a flashback is Bryan Q. Miller's book a year later though.

----------


## millernumber1

> In that case, yeah, I'm not sure there were any writers who would have been able to do the scene justice. Could have been a flashback is Bryan Q. Miller's book a year later though.


Yeah. I still think that BQM did the best he could with the brief he was given, but Cass did get shafted by editorial in the Batgirl handling.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah. I still think that BQM did the best he could with the brief he was given, but Cass did get shafted by editorial in the Batgirl handling.


It's funny how the first scene in Miller's run was by far the worst part of it. Cass quits because Bruce isn't around? Someone hadn't read Batgirl #50.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's funny how the first scene in Miller's run was by far the worst part of it. Cass quits because Bruce isn't around? Someone hadn't read Batgirl #50.


I mean, it was clearly editorially mandated, and clumsy, but I actually really liked Cass and Steph fighting side by side - it's the closest we got to a Cass and Steph reunion. As for Cass changing her mind since Batgirl #50 - I think it could make sense, since you do have her still dealing with the Evil Cass stuff (though Dixon and Tieri both had Cass pretty much back to straight up heroism in Outsiders).  The worst thing is that DC clearly just didn't have a good plan for the character, and we can't seem to get any clarity on when Black Bat was created and whose idea it was.

----------


## Assam

> I mean, it was clearly editorially mandated, and clumsy, but I actually really liked Cass and Steph fighting side by side - it's the closest we got to a Cass and Steph reunion. As for Cass changing her mind since Batgirl #50 - I think it could make sense, since you do have her still dealing with the Evil Cass stuff (though Dixon and Tieri both had Cass pretty much back to straight up heroism in Outsiders).  The worst thing is that DC clearly just didn't have a good plan for the character, and we can't seem to get any clarity on when Black Bat was created and whose idea it was.


The first time I read the scene I was like, "Steph and Cass fighting together! This is aweso...wait. Cass, what are you doing? Where are you going Cass? This doesn't make sense.  Cass? Cassssss!" 

Also, it's kinda sad that the only Cass scene most people remember from Outsiders was her getting orange juice in the nude.

----------


## millernumber1

> The first time I read the scene I was like, "Steph and Cass fighting together! This is aweso...wait. Cass, what are you doing? Where are you going Cass? This doesn't make sense.  Cass? Cassssss!" 
> 
> Also, it's kinda sad that the only Cass scene most people remember from Outsiders was her getting orange juice in the nude.


It was such a great scene, though!

But I also remember her fighting Ollie (and Ollie being a jerk), and coming to the team's rescue with Katana's sword, as well!

----------


## Assam

> It was such a great scene, though!
> 
> But I also remember her fighting Ollie (and Ollie being a jerk), and coming to the team's rescue with Katana's sword, as well!


Yeah, it was funny. Not too sure why people thought it was out of character for her. If Barbara and Bruce hadn't made her otherwise, she probably would have just alternated between her Batgril suit and being naked during her days living in her cave. 

Those were both great moments, well aside from Oli being a jerk in the first place, and there was also her taking charge of the team in Bruce's absence, and, in  the final issue, putting Bitchwing in his place for all the crap he'd given her over the years, and FINALLY resolving things with him.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, it was funny. Not too sure why people thought it was out of character for her. If Barbara and Bruce hadn't made her otherwise, she probably would have just alternated between her Batgril suit and being naked during her days living in her cave. 
> 
> Those were both great moments, well aside from Oli being a jerk in the first place, and there was also her taking charge of the team in Bruce's absence, and, in  the final issue, putting Bitchwing in his place for all the crap he'd given her over the years, and FINALLY resolving things with him.


Which issue was that? I should track it down.

----------


## Assam

> Which issue was that? I should track it down.


Batman and the Outsiders #13 and #14, the last issues of the book, detail the events after the Outsiders disband. We see Cass trying to replace Batman by putting together a Network of capable people, Cass, as I already said, puts Bitchwing in his place, and Steph even makes a brief appearance as Spoiler.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman and the Outsiders #13 and #14, the last issues of the book, detail the events after the Outsiders disband. We see Cass trying to replace Batman by putting together a Network of capable people, Cass, as I already said, puts Bitchwing in his place, and Steph even makes a brief appearance as Spoiler.


I will do that!  :Smile:

----------


## Carabas

> Wait, Gabrych was responsible for War Games?!!! I totally forgot about that! Okay, nice things said taken back, that storyline is pretty much right behind EvilCass as my most hated storyline. (Still annoyed that we never got to see Cass's reaction to Steph being alive. It should have been a beautiful moment)


I don't think writers were responsible for War Games. That one was editorially mandated from beginning to end. I don't even think any then current Batman writers participated in it.

----------


## Dominick1216

Does anybody know how old Cassandra is supposed to be in New 52/Rebirth?

----------


## Caivu

> Does anybody know how old Cassandra is supposed to be in New 52/Rebirth?


About 16-17.

----------


## Dominick1216

> About 16-17.


Currently, or when she first appeared?

----------


## twincast

I seem to remember them stating Cass to be 15 either in BaRE or the first couple of Tynion's Detective issues. Or an interview? Could be wrong, though.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah, um, no. Just no, dude.


No what? what exactly do you think Cain is? Jesus you're hilarious, the man is a merc for hire who just happens to be the best because losts of statements and who happens to have forced young boys and girls in to becoming his soldiers, killed people and forced Sandra Wu San in to bearing him a child after he murdered her sister and held her at gun point after throwing the entire League at her.

Atleast Slade has a professional code,atleast he never forced his own kids in to being his soldiers while they were still infants. Either way both are villainous scum, Slade just happens to be a *good villain and character*( yeah I never called him a good person and I have no desire to whitewash his actions) while Cain is far from being either. He's just an atrocious character who fattened his own rep by stealing from others and being forced in to their backstories

----------


## darkseidpwns

> The only one I ever even heard of is Ducard. I mean, I know about a Kirigi, but he's a Daredevil character. 
> Anway, what exactly is wrong about creating a new character?
> 
> He definitely did not.
> 
> Oh, you read that Beechen crap, didn't you? It's bad for you and bears no resemblance to canon.


O'Neal wrote a story with Bruce's main teachers, Post Crisis writers largely followed his blue print. That's how we got Ducard, Cain came out of nowhere and was not even remotely relevant to Bruce. You're right that he's Cassandra's father, nobody questioned that. What I question is forcing him in to everyone's backstory, what do Floyd, Slade, Tiger, Monkey etc get from this guy? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Whereas he just sits and gets to be the best for no reason whatsoever.

Yes he did, go back and read the final few issues of Cassandra's first ongoing.

Beechen again? I'm talking about Cassandra's FIRST ongoing. What is with this ridiculous Beechen obsession?

----------


## Assam

> O'Neal wrote a story with Bruce's main teachers, Post Crisis writers largely followed his blue print. That's how we got Ducard, Cain came out of nowhere and was not even remotely relevant to Bruce. You're right that he's Cassandra's father, nobody questioned that. What I question is forcing him in to everyone's backstory, what do Floyd, Slade, Tiger, Monkey etc get from this guy? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Whereas he just sits and gets to be the best for no reason whatsoever.
> 
> Yes he did, go back and read the final few issues of Cassandra's first ongoing.
> 
> *Beechen again? I'm talking about Cassandra's FIRST ongoing. What is with this ridiculous Beechen obsession?*


Beechen introduced the idea that Cain didn't care about Cass, whereas her original ongoing clearly showed that despite being a sick monster, he DID love her as a father.

----------


## Assam

> No what? what exactly do you think Cain is? Jesus you're hilarious, the man is a merc for hire who just happens to be the best because losts of statements and who happens to have forced young boys and girls in to becoming his soldiers, killed people and forced Sandra Wu San in to bearing him a child after he murdered her sister and held her at gun point after throwing the entire League at her.
> 
> Atleast Slade has a professional code,atleast he never forced his own kids in to being his soldiers while they were still infants. Either way both are villainous scum, Slade just happens to be a *good villain and character*( yeah I never called him a good person and I have no desire to whitewash his actions) while Cain is far from being either. He's just an atrocious character who fattened his own rep by stealing from others and being forced in to their backstories


Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I consider Cain to be a MUCH better, and much more interesting character than Slade.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't think writers were responsible for War Games. That one was editorially mandated from beginning to end. I don't even think any then current Batman writers participated in it.


Gabrych in interviews talks about planning War Crimes as part of planning War Games. I can't find any editors taking credit for it, or find any writers willing to indicate which editors planned that event (Didio has disavowed planning it, saying it was already planned when he came on board). Regardless, all of the writers who have made statements about War Games have expressed regret, except Gabrych, who seemed pretty happy with it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Beechen introduced the idea that Cain didn't care about Cass, whereas her original ongoing clearly showed that despite being a sick monster, he DID love her as a father.


Which just makes him another Slade or Ra's or pretty much every daddy villain. They all care in their own way, only Darkseid seems to not give a damn.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I consider Cain to be a MUCH better, and much more interesting character than Slade.


Sure but mine is backed by facts

Slade has a better name
Better backstory
Superior design
Is a major DC villain
Is the biggest Teen Titans villain
Mainstream exposure
Superior stories
Cain is just a discount Slade, a mere footnote in Batman's history and a non entity in the larger DCU history.

----------


## dragons06

> I seem to remember them stating Cass to be 15 either in BaRE or the first couple of Tynion's Detective issues. Or an interview? Could be wrong, though.


Cassandra is really 15 ?
I thought she was around 18 or 17.

----------


## Agent Z

> No what? what exactly do you think Cain is? Jesus you're hilarious, the man is a merc for hire who just happens to be the best because losts of statements and who happens to have forced young boys and girls in to becoming his soldiers, killed people and forced Sandra Wu San in to bearing him a child after he murdered her sister and held her at gun point after throwing the entire League at her.
> 
> Atleast Slade has a professional code,atleast he never forced his own kids in to being his soldiers while they were still infants. Either way both are villainous scum, Slade just happens to be a *good villain and character*( yeah I never called him a good person and I have no desire to whitewash his actions) while Cain is far from being either. He's just an atrocious character who fattened his own rep by stealing from others and being forced in to their backstories


Yes Slade's quite the professional. What with him screwing teenagers, mind controlling them, bombing cities out of pettiness and then whining about how his kids don't love him and it's all Batman's fault. Quit the metaphorical handjob to Slade's. I never whitewashed Cain either. Cain's writers and fans knew what he was. Until Priest, people seemed to not realise what a piece Slade's truly was. I'm not even sure why you're posting here, in Cass' appreciation thread, other than to jerk off to a completely unrelated character

----------


## Agent Z

> Which just makes him another Slade or Ra's or pretty much every daddy villain. They all care in their own way, only Darkseid seems to not give a damn.


I love how you acts as if these characters pioneered these traits. Seriously, there is nothing you'll see in cape comics that didn't come from some place else originally.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yes Slade's quite the professional. What with him screwing teenagers, mind controlling them, bombing cities out of pettiness and then whining about how his kids don't love him and it's all Batman's fault. Quit the metaphorical handjob to Slade's. I never whitewashed Cain either. Cain's writers and fans knew what he was. Until Priest, people seemed to not realise what a piece Slade's truly was. I'm not even sure why you're posting here, in Cass' appreciation thread, other than to jerk off to a completely unrelated character


What? have you even read a Deathstroke story? that mind control retcon non sense was introduced to white wash Cass and Terra for *YOU* people, he didn't bomb anything, that was the Secret Society. Batman's fault? lol what? he blamed Dick for taking his daughter away which is true.

Until Priest? Deathstroke fans love Priest, they always know what he was. Maybe you're mistaking them for Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn and Terra fans, if Priest wrote them like he writes Slade then their fans would riot. Slade fans are more than happy with Priest.

It started as a discussion about Cain, I think he's a terrible character in need of a serious revamp, evidently DC thought so too _ looks at BRE_

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I love how you acts as if these characters pioneered these traits. Seriously, there is nothing you'll see in cape comics that didn't come from some place else originally.


I love how you you think I ever claimed that. Those characters carved their niche, Ra's and Slade have a place in their respective franchises. Cain is an exercise in redundancy.

----------


## Agent Z

> What? have you even read a Deathstroke story? that mind control retcon non sense was introduced to white wash Cass and Terra for *YOU* people, he didn't bomb anything, that was the Secret Society. Batman's fault? lol what? he blamed Dick for taking his daughter away which is true.
> 
> Until Priest? Deathstroke fans love Priest, they always know what he was. Maybe you're mistaking them for Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn and Terra fans, if Priest wrote them like he writes Slade then their fans would riot. Slade fans are more than happy with Priest.
> 
> It started as a discussion about Cain, I think he's a terrible character in need of a serious revamp, evidently DC thought so too _ looks at BRE_


Yeah I've read Deathstroke stories. The Cass thing was less whitewashing and more character rerailment. He participated in the destruction of Bludhaven and flat out said he wanted Nightwing to feel like he had nowhere else to go to. And considering Slade's murdered Rose's foster parents, I have a lot of difficulty seeing Dick keeping her away from him as an awful thing. 

That's rich given your incessant excuses and aggrandising of Slade.

DC also thought Slade mind controlling Terra and Cass was a good idea too.

----------


## Agent Z

> I love how you you think I ever claimed that. Those characters carved their niche, Ra's and Slade have a place in their respective franchises. Cain is an exercise in redundancy.


As Cain is neither leader of the LOA nor a creepy pedophile, I fail to see the redundancy

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah I've read Deathstroke stories. The Cass thing was less whitewashing and more character rerailment. He participated in the destruction of Bludhaven and flat out said he wanted Nightwing to feel like he had nowhere else to go to. And considering Slade's murdered Rose's foster parents, I have a lot of difficulty seeing Dick keeping her away from him as an awful thing. 
> 
> That's rich given your incessant excuses and aggrandising of Slade.
> 
> DC also thought Slade mind controlling Terra and Cass was a good idea too.


At the expense of the other character because it was politically correct. Slade fans didn't whine or throw hissy fits unlike certain other fans.
Bludhaven was not bombed on his prerogative, he was part of a group, group decides to crater it, he goes with the decision.
When did I say Dick didn't do Rose a favour? yeesh. I'm talking about it from Slade's perspective, it was legit reason to have a rivalry between him and Grayson. He's a bad guy, he needs a reason to go after the hero, this one was good enough.

What excuses? I'm pointing out story reasons, not my personal homo erotic fan fic agenda.

They thought benching Cass was a good idea too.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> As Cain is neither leader of the LOA nor a creepy pedophile, I fail to see the redundancy


Yeah instead he's a washed up has been and no hit wonder who kidnaps infants and turns them in to monsters. Cain brings nothing to the Batman franchise and DCU, that's why he's redundant.

----------


## Agent Z

> At the expense of the other character because it was politically correct. Slade fans didn't whine or throw hissy fits unlike certain other fans.
> Bludhaven was not bombed on his prerogative, he was part of a group, group decides to crater it, he goes with the decision.
> When did I say Dick didn't do Rose a favour? yeesh. I'm talking about it from Slade's perspective, it was legit reason to have a rivalry between him and Grayson. He's a bad guy, he needs a reason to go after the hero, this one was good enough.
> 
> What excuses? I'm pointing out story reasons, not my personal homo erotic fan fic agenda.
> 
> They thought benching Cass was a good idea too.


Actually there was a lot of grumbling and crying about the mind control from Slade fans. Especially in regards to Terra. And at least Slade was already a villain with a history of manipulating teenagers. It made more sense than Cass' turning evil and the reasons for it

And apparently it was a decision he really enjoyed going along with. And like you said he was already enemies with Nightwing. 

So maybe we shouldn't just assume everything DC does is a good idea just because they do it then?

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeah instead he's a washed up has been and no hit wonder who kidnaps infants and turns them in to monsters. Cain brings nothing to the Batman franchise and DCU, that's why he's redundant.


You know that only you are the one who cares about this so called "redundancy" right?

----------


## Frontier

This is not the thread to be extensively discussing/debating Deathstroke and his character, so let's get the discussion back to appreciating/discussing Cass folks...

----------


## Assam

> This is not the thread to be extensively discussing/debating Deathstroke and his character, so let's get the discussion back to appreciating/discussing Cass folks...


THIS. 

However, as a capstone to the Slade discussion, I'm just gonna give praise to Cass by saying that she would destroy Slade in a fight. Slade himself has even admitted it. 

And since the whole mind control incident left me hating Slade forever,  I REALLY hope that one day, in some shape or form, we really get to see Cass whale on him.

----------


## millernumber1

> THIS. 
> 
> However, as a capstone to the Slade discussion, I'm just gonna give praise to Cass by saying that she would destroy Slade in a fight. Slade himself has even admitted it. 
> 
> And since the whole mind control incident left me hating Slade forever,  I REALLY hope that one day, in some shape or form, we really get to see Cass whale on him.


Slade is still an evil jerk who deserves to be beat up (though his current title is really smart and well drawn), but would Cass still have a special reason for hating him? I know the Rebirth-stolen-ten-years thing is still being revealed, but current Cass doesn't seem to have a reason to hate Slade specifically, any more than current Steph has a reason to hate Black Mask, or current Tim has a reason to hate Boomerang?

----------


## Assam

> Slade is still an evil jerk who deserves to be beat up (though his current title is really smart and well drawn), but would Cass still have a special reason for hating him? I know the Rebirth-stolen-ten-years thing is still being revealed, but current Cass doesn't seem to have a reason to hate Slade specifically, any more than current Steph has a reason to hate Black Mask, or current Tim has a reason to hate Boomerang?


Like I said, "Someday". I'm still holding out hope that the 10 years will be restored, everyone will regain their memories, and everything will be canon. 

Also, I just seem to get more of these art ideas every day since I joined this forum, but now I want to see Cass, Steph, and Tim standing atop a beaten down Slade, Black Mask, and Boomerang.

----------


## millernumber1

> Like I said, "Someday". I'm still holding out hope that the 10 years will be restored, everyone will regain their memories, and everything will be canon. 
> 
> Also, I just seem to get more of these art ideas every day since I joined this forum, but now I want to see Cass, Steph, and Tim standing atop a beaten down Slade, Black Mask, and Boomerang.


That would be pretty much made of win.

I personally don't get my hopes up for what was lost to be found again. But then again, I'm mostly happy with where Cass and Steph are right now.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Wednesday is approaching, and that means that a new Detective Comics issue is coming out. 

For an arc that's supposed to be about Cass, she was barely in the last issue. I haven't been a fan so far of how Tynion writes Cass, and I'm really hoping that in 'Tec #952, we don't just see Cass get panel time. I want to see him show off other aspects of Cass's character besides "Fighter" and "likes ballet." 

I only started reading this book because Tim, Steph, and Cass were in it. The first two are gone. If Tynion can't improve on his writing of Cass IN HER OWN STORY, I'm probably gonna drop the book. 

...

Oh, who am I kidding? I'll read anything with Cass in it.

----------


## Zainu

> Cassandra is really 15 ?
> I thought she was around 18 or 17.


I remember Tynion saying in an interview that he estimates her as 14. Which is great, because otherwise I wouldn't accept her being so smol(though cute as she is). Her end game height better be her original 5'5"!  :Mad:

----------


## Assam

> I remember Tynion saying in an interview that he estimates her as 14. Which is great, because otherwise I wouldn't accept her being so smol(though cute as she is). Her end game height better be her original 5'5"!


Yeah, tiny Cass is adorbs, but Pre-Flashpoint Cass was a healthy 5'5" 19, possibly 20, year old woman.

----------


## Zainu

> Wednesday is approaching, and that means that a new Detective Comics issue is coming out. 
> 
> For an arc that's supposed to be about Cass, she was barely in the last issue. I haven't been a fan so far of how Tynion writes Cass, and I'm really hoping that in 'Tec #952, we don't just see Cass get panel time. I want to see him show off other aspects of Cass's character besides "Fighter" and "likes ballet." 
> 
> I only started reading this book because Tim, Steph, and Cass were in it. The first two are gone. If Tynion can't improve on his writing of Cass IN HER OWN STORY, I'm probably gonna drop the book. 
> 
> ...
> 
> Oh, who am I kidding? I'll read anything with Cass in it.


Cass shows a lot of her original traits. Her empathy, kindness, maybe some curiosity/shyness, terse badassery, self doubt...the only issue I'd have is her lacking some of the roughness that she originally had. NuCass is very empathetic and open. Pre-flashpoint Cass was more aloof yet empathetic. She comes as an enigma before unraveling her feelings with each panel, but this one is more open from the getgo. Feels more mild, or toned down in both personality and fighting skills. OG Cass had her own temper and stubbornness to her. Maybe it's because this Cass is younger, 14 as opposed to 16...but I think that having a temper/wild stubbornness was also an interesting part of her. It's what drove her to do a lot of the reckless things that she did, and it adds a further dimension to her person and decisions.

----------


## Caivu

From #955, most likely:

Screenshot_20170304-191601.jpg

----------


## Assam

> From #955, most likely:
> 
> Screenshot_20170304-191601.jpg


"sigh" Just more of Cass being badass instead of any of what made her amazing as a character. Not hyped.

----------


## thefiresky

> Wednesday is approaching, and that means that a new Detective Comics issue is coming out. 
> 
> For an arc that's supposed to be about Cass, she was barely in the last issue. I haven't been a fan so far of how Tynion writes Cass, and I'm really hoping that in 'Tec #952, we don't just see Cass get panel time. I want to see him show off other aspects of Cass's character besides "Fighter" and "likes ballet." 
> 
> I only started reading this book because Tim, Steph, and Cass were in it. The first two are gone. If Tynion can't improve on his writing of Cass IN HER OWN STORY, I'm probably gonna drop the book. 
> 
> ...
> 
> Oh, who am I kidding? I'll read anything with Cass in it.


I feel like fans demand so much from a character that barely speaks. Her last appearance wasn't intriguing enough? I feel like her association with ballet speaks ten fold for her personal development. I think it's a beautiful aspect about her, and gives a lot to her persona if you read between the lines.

----------


## Assam

> I feel like fans demand so much from a character that barely speaks. Her last appearance wasn't intriguing enough? I feel like her association with ballet speaks ten fold for her personal development. I think it's a beautiful aspect about her, and gives a lot to her persona if you read between the lines.


Just curious, don't mean this in a condescending way, but have you read Cass's solo book? 

Cass's fascination with ballet was a genius idea on Tynion's part, probably my favorite idea of his in general, and it's a nice call back to her team-up with Azrael back in the day. However, there is SO MUCH to Cass's character that Tynion is ignoring, and that's why I'm frustrated.

----------


## thefiresky

> Just curious, don't mean this in a condescending way, but have you read Cass's solo book? 
> 
> Cass's fascination with ballet was a genius idea on Tynion's part, probably my favorite idea of his in general, and it's a nice call back to her team-up with Azrael back in the day. However, there is SO MUCH to Cass's character that Tynion is ignoring, and that's why I'm frustrated.


Yes i have. It's great, but people forget this isn't a Cass solo book. I think Tynion has done an amazing job balancing panel time for each character. Not only has he put them "on screen" but he's also had the ability to give character depth to each within the 26 or so pages EACH RELEASE. It's impressive, and I think fans overlook that. Everyone wants MORE MORE MORE! But in truth, I think for a team book the balancing is optimal. And let's be reasonable, this isn't the MOST in depth look we will get to see from her. There's a plethora of issues left lol.

----------


## Assam

> Yes i have. It's great, but people forget this isn't a Cass solo book. I think Tynion has done an amazing job balancing panel time for each character. Not only has he put them "on screen" but he's also had the ability to give character depth to each within the 26 or so pages EACH RELEASE. It's impressive, and I think fans overlook that. Everyone wants MORE MORE MORE! But in truth, I think for a team book the balancing is optimal. And let's be reasonable, this isn't the MOST in depth look we will get to see from her. There's a plethora of issues left lol.


I think the Colony arc had him balancing everyone pretty well, and Cass was written okay there. Night of the Monster Men should have been a gold mine for showing off Cass and Steph in their scenes together, but instead they were bland and generic. And the Victim Syndicate arc was just too rushed for anyone but Steph (the protag) to do anything. I will admit that her moments will Clayface were nice though. 

There ARE more issues in this arc, yes, but I doubt she'll be getting much to do in the following arcs. Tynion has said he wants to leave each of these characters in a place where they could get their own book. If Cass, Steph, Tim, and the rest of the 'Tec crew DO end up even just getting minis because of this, I will be eternally grateful to Tynion. Until that happens though, we're left with a mediocre team book where, like with all teams he's on, everyone is overshadowed in panel time by Batman.

----------


## thefiresky

> I think the Colony arc had him balancing everyone pretty well, and Cass was written okay there. Night of the Monster Men should have been a gold mine for showing off Cass and Steph in their scenes together, but instead they were bland and generic. And the Victim Syndicate arc was just too rushed for anyone but Steph (the protag) to do anything. I will admit that her moments will Clayface were nice though. 
> 
> There ARE more issues in this arc, yes, but I doubt she'll be getting much to do in the following arcs. Tynion has said he wants to leave each of these characters in a place where they could get their own book. If Cass, Steph, Tim, and the rest of the 'Tec crew DO end up even just getting minis because of this, I will be eternally grateful to Tynion. Until that happens though, we're left with a mediocre team book where, like with all teams he's on, everyone is overshadowed in panel time by Batman.


I feel like you didn't exactly read what I was saying. Your response seems like you still want 'tec to be a solo book for everyone, which it isnt. Also Night of the Monster Men was hot dog#$/^ all around. I try to forget it existed... lol and also, I didn't mean more issues "in this arc" I meant more issues in this run. Cassandra will have her own time and arc for sure. Trust. But until then people have to look at the longevity of this book and how it fashions each character. Just give Tynion time. He can't portray everything in one issue, or one arc, or one year. Just ride with it.

----------


## Assam

> I feel like you didn't exactly read what I was saying. Your response seems like you still want 'tec to be a solo book for everyone, which it isnt. Also Night of the Monster Men was hot dog#$/^ all around. I try to forget it existed... lol and also, I didn't mean more issues "in this arc" I meant more issues in this run. Cassandra will have her own time and arc for sure. Trust. But until then people have to look at the longevity of this book and how it fashions each character. Just give Tynion time. He can't portray everything in one issue, or one arc, or one year. Just ride with it.


Sorry if that's how it came off. I did read what you said, I know this can't be a solo book for everyone. But to me, the best team books are the ones that give the whole team SOMETHING to do in every issue. Honestly, I'd say the best example of how to balance a team book is Keith Giffen's Justice League International. 

Yeah, Night of the Monster Men was pretty terrible. 

Maybe she'll be doing stuff in future arcs down the line, but unless Tynion brings back the Azrael Cass friendship, I doubt she'll be doing much in the upcoming Azrael/Batwing arc. And since she's the only one I'm reading the book for since Tim and Steph left, you can't blame me for being disappointed.

----------


## thefiresky

> Sorry if that's how it came off. I did read what you said, I know this can't be a solo book for everyone. But to me, the best team books are the ones that give the whole team SOMETHING to do in every issue. Honestly, I'd say the best example of how to balance a team book is Keith Giffen's Justice League International. 
> 
> Yeah, Night of the Monster Men was pretty terrible. 
> 
> Maybe she'll be doing stuff in future arcs down the line, but unless Tynion brings back the Azrael Cass friendship, I doubt she'll be doing much in the upcoming Azrael/Batwing arc. And since she's the only one I'm reading the book for since Tim and Steph left, you can't blame me for being disappointed.


Fair enough. Trust me, the disappointment is strong with me too. I picked up 'tec for Tim... needless to say, my life has been incomplete.

----------


## Assam

> Fair enough. Trust me, the disappointment is strong with me too. I picked up 'tec for Tim... needless to say, my life has been incomplete.


Oh, that's rough man. At least we can hope that Tim will be playing a major role in the fight against Dr. Manhattan, and that once all of this is over with, we can get a Red Robin solo title or a new Young Justice. Both preferably with Tim in the Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin suit.

----------


## thefiresky

> Oh, that's rough man. At least we can hope that Tim will be playing a major role in the fight against Dr. Manhattan, and that once all of this is over with, we can get a Red Robin solo title or a new Young Justice. Both preferably with Tim in the Pre-Flashpoint Red Robin suit.


Bro, if we got another Red Robin title, I'd lose my shit. That'd be awesome. Young Justice would be tight too. I'm wondering wtf will happen when Tim's back cuz Damian is running with TT now, so I doubt Tim would be interested in crossing back over there. I just feel like DC won't do a RR book because of fan's "lack of interest" in Tim, which is really just Tim being out of the picture for so long. I hate DC sometimes. Sorry wrong thread - but anyway I'm also hoping to see a sweet Cass arc in the near future.

----------


## Assam

So I was having what's at this point become a fairly common conversation for me: 

Idiot: "I can't believe Cassandra Cain is your favorite super hero. She's such a mary sue." 

Me: I don't think you know what that word means. And even going by the actual definition, Cass is far from one. She's the world's greatest fighter, yes, but she struggles in all other areas."

I then went on to go on my standard rant about all of the things that make Cass a brilliant character. 

However, after the conversation, something hit me. 

She really doesn't have a complete 'weak spot'. 

We all know she's the best fighter. Within her solo book, we saw a few times that Bruce and Tim were training her as a detective, and, outside of those dedicated issues, we also saw an example of her skills when she was able to deduce Superboy's secret identity and find him. And as far as leadership skills go, while we didn't get to see much of them, there had to be a reason why Bruce trusted her to lead the Outsiders after he 'died' in Final Crisis. 

For a long time, I have maintained that while Damian would be the best single replacement for Bruce, Tim and Cass together would make the perfect Batman. 

This is no longer the case. 

Cass doesn't need Tim to be the best. She just needs a little time and experience.

----------


## Caivu

Detective Comics #953 regular cover:

6de46a54-efd4-4b38-99e1-450739459cde.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Detective Comics #953 regular cover:
> 
> 6de46a54-efd4-4b38-99e1-450739459cde.jpg


F**KING LOVE IT!!!

I mean, I love Fandom's interpretation of Bruce as a great dad to his sons and daughter...but that's not who he is, and so I have no problem seeing this. 

Plus, I just like see Bruce in pain : :Cool:

----------


## darkseidpwns

He doesn't have a daughter.

----------


## Carabas

> He doesn't have a daughter.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 


Beechen
Never followed upon or addressed after
Reboot
In short never status quo
It all amounts to a throwaway line, I actually thought he was referring to Helena who was never a daughter to Canon Earth Bruce.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> So I was having what's at this point become a fairly common conversation for me: 
> 
> Idiot: "I can't believe Cassandra Cain is your favorite super hero. She's such a mary sue." 
> 
> Me: I don't think you know what that word means. And even going by the actual definition, Cass is far from one. She's the world's greatest fighter, yes, but she struggles in all other areas."
> 
> I then went on to go on my standard rant about all of the things that make Cass a brilliant character. 
> 
> However, after the conversation, something hit me. 
> ...


Cass is not a genius or even close to it...she's smart, as in, not dumb, but thats about it...even if she hadn't the handicaps and traumas that she has, she would have never be a genius, or a super-smart girl...she's has to struggle more than everybody else to be a detective, due to her tragic-upbringging, but even if that wasn't the case she would never have been a detective of Bruce's caliber...that's why Tim + Cass > Batman.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Beechen
> Never followed upon or addressed after
> Reboot
> In short never status quo
> It all amounts to a throwaway line, I actually thought he was referring to Helena who was never a daughter to Canon Earth Bruce.


1) You do realize that writters don't do 100% of their work on their own, right? some stuff that they write is edited and never even gets to the comic-shop...you think something as big as Batman adopting a Batgirl, didn't had Editorial hand on it? i think it has, although ironicaly enough that fact may also be the reason why it was never brought up again...75% of the people who actually have "a voice" in DC hates Cass...and i'm 95% positive that if it wasnt for "DC's ship" sink as low as it did, and Mark Doyle being the current Bat-group chief editor, and Scott Snyder having the "voice" that he has now in DC, Cass wouldn't even been brought back at all, last year...

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Beechen
> Never followed upon or addressed after
> Reboot
> In short never status quo
> It all amounts to a throwaway line, I actually thought he was referring to Helena who was never a daughter to Canon Earth Bruce.


2) Sure, in the panel, you got Bruce and Cass, but he was referring to Helena...that makes sense  :Big Grin:

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Detective Comics #953 regular cover:
> 
> 6de46a54-efd4-4b38-99e1-450739459cde.jpg


Lol, that's cover for shock value i'm sure...why would Cass fight Bruce to begin with? i don't want to see it, besides its pointless, Bruce himself admitted that he would lose to her already, Batwoman (her team leader) apparently has also acknowledged that, there's nothing to prove...unless Cass wants to "talk through fighting", it wouldn't be the first time.

----------


## Carabas

> Lol, that's cover for shock value i'm sure...why would Cass fight Bruce to begin with? i don't want to see it, besides its pointless, Bruce himself admitted that he would lose to her already, Batwoman (her team leader) apparently has also acknowledged that, there's nothing to prove...unless Cass wants to "talk through fighting", it wouldn't be the first time.


It's a cover. It's supposed to sell the book by being cool, not acurately represent the contents of the book in the correct context.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> It's a cover. It's supposed to sell the book by being cool, not acurately represent the contents of the book in the correct context.


Yes, my thoughts exactly.

----------


## Assam

> Cass is not a genius or even close to it...she's smart, as in, not dumb, but thats about it...even if she hadn't the handicaps and traumas that she has, she would have never be a genius, or a super-smart girl...she's has to struggle more than everybody else to be a detective, due to her tragic-upbringging, but even if that wasn't the case she would never have been a detective of Bruce's caliber...that's why Tim + Cass > Batman.


First off, thank you for defending Cass's legitimacy as Bruce's daughter while I was sleeping.  :Smile: 

As for this, while I do agree that Cass is no genius, and that Tim+Cass WOULD most certainly be the most optimal outcome, I think that she's smart enough to learn more over time, (especially since in Rebirth, she's what, 14?), that she'd still make a better single Batman than Damian would. No, she'll never be as smart as even HIM, but I do think she could be his equal as a detective, and with how much Batman relied on Oracle, (Who, I don't care what anyone says, IS smarter than Bruce)  in the 90's and 2000's, being a super genius isn't a requirement to be the Batman. 

I mean, Dick was able to pull if off, right?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) You do realize that writters don't do 100% of their work on their own, right? some stuff that they write is edited and never even gets to the comic-shop...you think something as big as Batman adopting a Batgirl, didn't had Editorial hand on it? i think it has, although ironicaly enough that fact may also be the reason why it was never brought up again...75% of the people who actually have "a voice" in DC hates Cass...and i'm 95% positive that if it wasnt for "DC's ship" sink as low as it did, and Mark Doyle being the current Bat-group chief editor, and Scott Snyder having the "voice" that he has now in DC, Cass wouldn't even been brought back at all, last year...


That doesn't address what I said. The hated Beexhen intended to have Bruce adopt Cass but that never happened. About 4 years later DC rebooted, its been 5 years since the reboot and almost a decade since that page, Batman and Cass have shared a total of what 5 pages tops? DC never made it status quo so canonically Bruce never had a daughter.

----------


## millernumber1

> Beechen
> Never followed upon or addressed after
> Reboot
> In short never status quo
> It all amounts to a throwaway line, I actually thought he was referring to Helena who was never a daughter to Canon Earth Bruce.





> That doesn't address what I said. The hated Beexhen intended to have Bruce adopt Cass but that never happened. About 4 years later DC rebooted, its been 5 years since the reboot and almost a decade since that page, Batman and Cass have shared a total of what 5 pages tops? DC never made it status quo so canonically Bruce never had a daughter.


unclepulky actually pointed me at Tieri's run on Batman and the Outsiders following up after Dixon left the title, and the adoption was confirmed by Dick in issue #14. Sure, it's a tertiary title, but saying "never followed up" is factually incorrect.

----------


## darkseidpwns

That was the final issue of that series right? its still just a throwaway line in a book that ended. Poor Cass, it didn't become status quo. In the history of the Batman character this isn't even a foot note. Look at it from the perspective of Batman and his mythology not Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> That was the final issue of that series right? its still just a throwaway line in a book that ended. Poor Cass, it didn't become status quo. In the history of the Batman character this isn't even a foot note. Look at it from the perspective of Batman and his mythology not Cass.


This is a Cass thread. I think looking at it from the perspective of Cass is appropriate here.

Also, if a writer like Grant Morrison or Tom King comes along in 10-20 years, these "throwaways" will definitely become important again.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> This is a Cass thread. I think looking at it from the perspective of Cass is appropriate here.
> 
> Also, if a writer like Grant Morrison or Tom King comes along in 10-20 years, these "throwaways" will definitely become important again.


But its not something specific to Cass alone, its a two way thing. Batman having a daughter is huge except it wasn't.

Tom King and Morrison never bothered so they're not exactly good examples.

----------


## millernumber1

> But its not something specific to Cass alone, its a two way thing. Batman having a daughter is huge except it wasn't.
> 
> Tom King and Morrison never bothered so they're not exactly good examples.


1) Then why are you in the Cass thread?

2) I said "like," not "those two exact writers." Also "in 10 years." They are great examples of writers who wrap up large swathes of continuity into modern stories, reworking and revitalizing it.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) Then why are you in the Cass thread?
> 
> 2) I said "like," not "those two exact writers." Also "in 10 years." They are great examples of writers who wrap up large swathes of continuity into modern stories, reworking and revitalizing it.


Because its a topic relevant to Cass and it happens to be in the Batman forum.

Its been almost a decade since that page, King hasn't exactly expressed interest. Maybe, could be, possibly etc is just something you never know.

----------


## millernumber1

1) I don't think this is the "Cass Cain Appreciation thread insofar as she's relevant to Batman."

2) How can I be clearer? I am not talking about Morrison or King. I'm talking about someone who takes a similar approach.

----------


## Sardorim

Well, Cass isn't his daughter anyway and even if they remember the papers didn't transfer over to the new52 clean slate.

Besudes, I like her not being related to Tim as it lets her be teased with him again.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

I have to say, I was deeply impressed by the ending of the latest Detective issue. They really do exploit the new canon in an interesting way.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> 1) I don't think this is the "Cass Cain Appreciation thread insofar as she's relevant to Batman."
> 
> 2) How can I be clearer? I am not talking about Morrison or King. I'm talking about someone who takes a similar approach.


So Batman having a daughter is not relevant to Batman, okey dokey.

That's for then, it's not status quo now nor was it ever.

----------


## millernumber1

> So Batman having a daughter is not relevant to Batman, okey dokey.
> 
> That's for then, it's not status quo now nor was it ever.


Go talk about it in the Batman thread. Any other thread.

Is there a reason you feel the need to denigrate Cass in her own thread?

----------


## Assam

So fellow Cass lovers, and Darkseidpwns, what did we all think of Cass in the newest issue of 'Tec? Personally, I'm still not sure. I'm glad she wasn't shown to struggle with the assassins like the others, and that they made it clear that, like her old self, she doesn't go all out. The hug with Bruce was sweet, #AdoptCass, and I'm interested in hearing what you think of my interpretation of the final scene: 

Cass wasn't crying because her MOTHER killed people. She was crying because her mother KILLED PEOPLE. Cass values all life, and so hearing what her mom had done, and would continue to do, made her sad that she couldn't do anything to stop her. 

Tynion's writing of Cass is still on thin ice for me, but for now I'm sated.

----------


## Caivu

> So fellow Cass lovers, and Darkseidpwns, what did we all think of Cass in the newest issue of 'Tec? Personally, I'm still not sure. I'm glad she wasn't shown to struggle with the assassins like the others, and that they made it clear that, like her old self, she doesn't go all out. The hug with Bruce was sweet, #AdoptCass, and I'm interested in hearing what you think of my interpretation of the final scene: 
> 
> Cass wasn't crying because her MOTHER killed people. She was crying because her mother KILLED PEOPLE. Cass values all life, and so hearing what her mom had done, and would continue to do, made her sad that she couldn't do anything to stop her. 
> 
> Tynion's writing of Cass is still on thin ice for me, but for now I'm sated.


I think both angles for that last scene are true. No reason why it has to be one or the other.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think both angles for that last scene are true. No reason why it has to be one or the other.


Agreed. I see both in Cass's expressions and dialogue.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Go talk about it in the Batman thread. Any other thread.
> 
> Is there a reason you feel the need to denigrate Cass in her own thread?


This IS the Batman thread and here we are discussing whether Cass (looks at title) was indeed Bruce's daughter or not. This is perfectly relevant topic for discussion here.

How is this denigrating? she's not Bruce's daughter, its that simple. I dont care much about Tim but he was Bruce's son, that was part of the status quo and could return in the future. My feelings dont change that.

----------


## Assam

> This IS the Batman thread and here we are discussing whether Cass (looks at title) was indeed Bruce's daughter or not. This is perfectly relevant topic for discussion here.
> 
> How is this denigrating? she's not Bruce's daughter, its that simple. I don't care much about Tim but he was Bruce's son, that was part of the status quo and could return in the future. My feelings dont change that.


How does "What was status quo" change ANYTHING? You made this same argument when we talked about whether Steph is a real Robin. No, that didn't last more than a few months. And no, we didn't get to see Bruce being Cass's legal dad. 

But why does it matter?! These events still happened. You can't just say they didn't because they were short lived. By your logic, characters who have only ever been in a few issues don't exist at all, which is simply not true. 

And yes, this IS denigrating. This thread is meant for Cass fans to talk about Cass, and why we love her. 

You are not a Cass fan, you do not love her, and what you're doing now is the equivalent to me going over to any other appreciation thread, and shitting all over an aspect of a character that the majority of the fanbase likes.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

I wonder if Cass would have stayed in the limelight if she hadn't joined the Bat clan during the Bat-dick phase. 

All things considered, they would have had to do a lot of work to repair what was a neglectful relationship. The current Batman has far more empathy than the old one.

----------


## Assam

> I wonder if Cass would have stayed in the limelight if she hadn't joined the Bat clan during the Bat-dick phase. 
> 
> All things considered, they would have had to do a lot of work to repair what was a neglectful relationship. The current Batman has far more empathy than the old one.


Batman being a dick in that era wasn't the problem. If anything, it led to many a interesting story, with Cass being pulled in different directions by Babs, Bruce, and the various people she met along her adventures. During her 7 years as a core member of the BatFamily, she was a part of all the crossovers, popped up in other people's books, and had frequent interactions with Tim and Steph. Cass WAS firmly in the limelight in this time. 

Remember, Cass's book wasn't canceled for low sales. She was outselling a bunch of other titles which weren't cancelled.  It was an editorial decision, because DC has ALWAYS hated Cass and Steph. Then we got EvilCass (HAAAAAATE!!!) and after being the focus of the worst storyline in the history of comics, Cass wasn't able to get back into her old groove. Sure she got some good scattered appearances, but Rebirth is really the first time since 2006 Cass has gotten any attention at all. 

So no. The era she was introduced in had nothing to do with it, but I will say that from a character, not necessarily story, perspective,  I prefer Bruce acting as Batdad to Cass now, than how he used Cass as, as Barbara  once put it, "His favorite weapon."

----------


## darkseidpwns

> How does "What was status quo" change ANYTHING? You made this same argument when we talked about whether Steph is a real Robin. No, that didn't last more than a few months. And no, we didn't get to see Bruce being Cass's legal dad. 
> 
> But why does it matter?! These events still happened. You can't just say they didn't because they were short lived. By your logic, characters who have only ever been in a few issues don't exist at all, which is simply not true. 
> 
> And yes, this IS denigrating. This thread is meant for Cass fans to talk about Cass, and why we love her. 
> 
> You are not a Cass fan, you do not love her, and what you're doing now is the equivalent to me going over to any other appreciation thread, and shitting all over an aspect of a character that the majority of the fanbase likes.


It defines your legacy and place. 

Them being short lived isn't my point of contention, Tim being Bruce's son was short lived but it IS a part of the legacy of the character. Cass being Bruce's daughter is not.

You do realize that you're the one who has admitted to hating Bruce, so why not create a thread for Cass in the DC forum then? I dont tell you what to do. I've read about 90% (likely more) Cass stories. So I'm perfectly capable of talking about her, the thread is for discussion related to Cass topics and I'm certainly not going around saying that she sucks or that she is overrated or that she shouldn't exist. Nor am I derailing the thread with a useless topic that has nothing to do with Cass. The problem here is that people just dont want to hear facts because they dont like hearing them. Its not specific to CBR or anything, its just how people act these days. I gave an opinion, I backed it up and when you people couldn't you resorted to "get out".

Okay I'm getting out now.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman being a dick in that era wasn't the problem. If anything, it led to many a interesting story, with Cass being pulled in different directions by Babs, Bruce, and the various people she met along her adventures. During her 7 years as a core member of the BatFamily, she was a part of all the crossovers, popped up in other people's books, and had frequent interactions with Tim and Steph. Cass WAS firmly in the limelight in this time. 
> 
> Remember, Cass's book wasn't canceled for low sales. She was outselling a bunch of other titles which weren't cancelled.  It was an editorial decision, because DC has ALWAYS hated Cass and Steph. Then we got EvilCass (HAAAAAATE!!!) and after being the focus of the worst storyline in the history of comics, Cass wasn't able to get back into her old groove. Sure she got some good scattered appearances, but Rebirth is really the first time since 2006 Cass has gotten any attention at all. 
> 
> So no. The era she was introduced in had nothing to do with it, but I will say that from a character, not necessarily story, perspective,  I prefer Bruce acting as Batdad to Cass now, than how he used Cass as, as Barbara  once put it, "His favorite weapon."


I also get the sense that a lot of the writers who championed Cass left around OYL, which left no one to stand against Evil Cass from editorial.

----------


## Carabas

> It defines your legacy and place. 
> 
> Them being short lived isn't my point of contention, Tim being Bruce's son was short lived but it IS a part of the legacy of the character. Cass being Bruce's daughter is not.


Question: do you know what an Appreciation Thread is for?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I also get the sense that a lot of the writers who championed Cass left around OYL, which left no one to stand against Evil Cass from editorial.


I never got the impression that Cass had that many champions, sadly

----------


## Carabas

> I never got the impression that Cass had that many champions, sadly


Oh, there were plenty of writers, but they almost never got editorial permission to use the character.

----------


## Agent Z

> Oh, there were plenty of writers, but they almost never got editorial permission to use the character.


Really? I thought it was just Gail Simone.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Oh, there were plenty of writers, but they almost never got editorial permission to use the character.


Prior to OYL?

----------


## Carabas

After OYL.

----------


## scary harpy

Anyone else wish that Cass had been Shiva's sister's daughter instead of Shiva's daughter?

----------


## Assam

> Anyone else wish that Cass had been Shiva's sister's daughter instead of Shiva's daughter?


Nah. The idea that Shiva only had Cass in order to produce someone who could kill her is something I find really interesting.

----------


## Caivu

> Anyone else wish that Cass had been Shiva's sister's daughter instead of Shiva's daughter?


What would the benefit of that be?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> After OYL.


Yeah, prior to OYL, what props did Cass really get outside her book?

Don't get me wrong, I like Cass. But she never got an arc in Gotham Knights, barely got used in the main books and even in the crossover in which she contributed the most, Murderer, she was barely in. And she never got any long term membership in a teen team

I think Brubaker was one of the few comfortable really using her. Writers just didn't want to push themselves, IMO

----------


## Carabas

> Yeah, prior to OYL, what props did Cass really get outside her book?


Well, Justice League Elite was a thing. She was on a superhero team with the flash, Green Arrow, and others.

And having her actual own book mitigates not being used a lot outside of that book.

----------


## Assam

> Well, Justice League Elite was a thing. She was on a superhero team with the flash, Green Arrow, and others.
> 
> And having her actual own book mitigates not being used a lot outside of that book.


Especially considering that in addition to, and because, her book was of such high quality, it actually OUT SOLD the main Batman title more than once.

----------


## Assam

So, first off, SPOILERS FOR THE SEASON 5 PREMIERE OF SAMURAI JACK! IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED IT YET, YOU REALLY SHOULD! 

Now then, in this premiere, we met the 7 daughters of Aku, a bunch of girls trained from birth to kill Jack. One of them, Ashi, got a lot of focus, and those who are genre savvy think that based off what we saw, she'll end up deciding to side with Jack against Aku. 

This means a character on the show may be: A young Asian woman who dresses in all black, was raised from birth to be a killing machine, is a superior martial artist to almost anyone else, chose to turn her back on her "father" upon realizing how horrible he is, given her upbringing is likely socially retarded, and took on the cause of a great hero upon being inspired by him. 

We're yet to see if she'll have any of Cass's personality traits, but do you guys think that Genndy might be a fellow Cass fan?

----------


## Assam

an_orphan_by_psuede-daz04pk.jpg

NAWWWWWWW!

I'm still not a big fan of the Orphan costume, but Cass looks great here. Still waiting on that black and white Orphan statue DC. It's the only one I'm paying $75 for.

----------


## millernumber1

> an_orphan_by_psuede-daz04pk.jpg
> 
> NAWWWWWWW!
> 
> I'm still not a big fan of the Orphan costume, but Cass looks great here. Still waiting on that black and white Orphan statue DC. It's the only one I'm paying $75 for.


That's gorgeous! Source?  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> That's gorgeous! Source?


http://www.deviantart.com/art/An-Orphan-663454424

----------


## Frontier

> an_orphan_by_psuede-daz04pk.jpg
> 
> NAWWWWWWW!
> 
> I'm still not a big fan of the Orphan costume, but Cass looks great here. Still waiting on that black and white Orphan statue DC. It's the only one I'm paying $75 for.


Beautiful piece  :Embarrassment: .

Could use a cape though...

----------


## Assam

> Beautiful piece .
> 
> Could use a cape though...


Give her a cape, give her bat ears, and take away the armor pieces, and we're good.  :Smile:

----------


## Sharpandpointies

I actually rather liked th costume we briefly saw when she was in Hong Kong, before the Black Bat one (I hated the mask on that one). 

Suited her rather well. 




> Yeah, prior to OYL, what props did Cass really get outside her book?


In addition to the stuff mentioned, she showed up in a Superboy comic as I understand (along with Robin - it was mostly comic relief), had cameos in other comics, and was written appallingly badly in two Birds of Prey comics. 

...one might almost think those Birds of Prey issues were the comics Beechen read for 'research' before writing the Cass Heel-Turn in Robin.

----------


## Assam

movie night.jpg

My interpretation of this:

Cass wanted to get to know her brothers who she didn't already know well better, and so she asked Damian and Jason to watch a movie with her. Damian said yes because of his crush (my headcanon!), and Jason agreed because he found it funny how pissed Cass had gotten Dick over the years. 

However, there were three things she didn't tell them:

1. That the other Robin would be there. 
2. That the movie they were watching was  Drunken Master,( which led to Jason bragging to Damian that he wouldn't be able to learn that technique for many years) 
and
3. While they were here, Tim was planting stink bombs in the Robins' rooms as payback for all the shit they've given him. 

Thoughts?

----------


## dietrich

> Beautiful piece .
> 
> Could use a cape though...


Oh no I don't want a cape on it. I love it as is. It's very Ninja very Cass. A cape is dramatic and Cass isn't about drama.

----------


## dietrich

> movie night.jpg
> 
> My interpretation of this:
> 
> Cass wanted to get to know her brothers who she didn't already know well better, and so she asked Damian and Jason to watch a movie with her. Damian said yes because of his crush (my headcanon!), and Jason agreed because he found it funny how pissed Cass had gotten Dick over the years. 
> 
> However, there were three things she didn't tell them:
> 
> 1. That the other Robin would be there. 
> ...


I'm wondering why they've brought their weapons. Is it a case of never leave the house without it?

----------


## Assam

> I'm wondering why they've brought their weapons. Is it a case of never leave the house without it?


Considering the two we're talking about, I think it's a safe bet.

----------


## Assam

CassXSteph.jpg

YAAAAAAAAAAS!!!!

...

I'm dead. This killed me. It's too perfect.

----------


## millernumber1

So, Cass fans - I personally think that Tynion's going to keep her on the team at the end of League of Shadows, but a lot of people think she's going to leave, like Tim and Steph did at the ends of their arcs. What do you all think? Why or why not?

----------


## Assam

> So, Cass fans - I personally think that Tynion's going to keep her on the team at the end of League of Shadows, but a lot of people think she's going to leave, like Tim and Steph did at the ends of their arcs. What do you all think? Why or why not?


I'll admit. Between Tim and Steph leaving at the end of their arcs, and the solicit for the final issue for this arc, I am very worried that she's going to leave as well. Hopefully we'll know for sure in two days when the solicits and covers come out for June.

----------


## millernumber1

I think she'll stay, because she's the only one left from the original team that doesn't have an expiration date built in, and she's the one who needs the exposure the most (since Steph has had more titles recently, and the first Eternal was much more popular than the second). Plus, I think since Tynion has a hankeringto make everything as much like 1992-2004 as possible, Cass being Batman's loyal soldier is the closest to that default other than making her Batgirl again.

----------


## Assam

And the solicits for June didn't reveal whether Cass is leaving the team or not...DAMMIT!

----------


## millernumber1

> And the solicits for June didn't reveal whether Cass is leaving the team or not...DAMMIT!


I saw that too...it is definitely not a support of my belief that she's staying on.

----------


## Assam

> I saw that too...it is definitely not a support of my belief that she's staying on.


It's more than a little frightening. 

Cass leaving would be good for my wallet though, cause if they put her back in limbo, I will drop every DC book I am currently reading.

----------


## Assam

So, as I sit here trying to do work, but unable to stop thinking about the possibility of Cass going to limbo, I turned to this, one of the best, non-dramatic Cass AMV's I've seen: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJjjVJaGmeI

----------


## The Whovian

> So, as I sit here trying to do work, but unable to stop thinking about the possibility of Cass going to limbo, I turned to this, one of the best, non-dramatic Cass AMV's I've seen: 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJjjVJaGmeI


Awesome video!

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> It's more than a little frightening. 
> 
> Cass leaving would be good for my wallet though, cause if they put her back in limbo, I will drop every DC book I am currently reading.


Cass leaving would mean one team member leaving per arc. I doubt they're gonna repeat themselves like that

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass leaving would mean one team member leaving per arc. I doubt they're gonna repeat themselves like that


That's one of my arguments in my review, which will hopefully go live later today.  :Smile:

----------


## AJpyro

I'm about to buy the first tpb of Cass and NML vol 1. Is Cataclysm needed?

----------


## Assam

> I'm about to buy the first tpb of Cass and NML vol 1. Is Cataclysm needed?


Cataclysm is not needed to know what's going on in NML.

All you need to know: Earthquake in Gotham. Government didn't want to send support, so they cut Gotham off from the rest of the country. Gotham has immediately devolved into a tribal gang war.

----------


## AJpyro

> Cataclysm is not needed to know what's going on in NML.
> 
> All you need to know: Earthquake in Gotham. Government didn't want to send support, so they cut Gotham off from the rest of the country. Gotham has immediately devolved into a tribal gang war.


Good. Saves me money and getting to the point.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cataclysm is not needed to know what's going on in NML.
> 
> All you need to know: Earthquake in Gotham. Government didn't want to send support, so they cut Gotham off from the rest of the country. Gotham has immediately devolved into a tribal gang war.


But Cataclysm had Huntress and Steph teaming up! It was great!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> But Cataclysm had Huntress and Steph teaming up! It was great!


Fortunately, that one shot is VERY easy to find online for an affordable price.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Fortunately, that one shot is VERY easy to find online for an affordable price.


True. And it's well worth it!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

You know, Cass is going through a lot right now. I think she could use a hug from her Sugar Rush counterpart. 

sugar rush Cass.jpg

----------


## adrikito

I should add this image:

Screen Shot 085.jpg


Maybe this happy Cass is good avatar for you *unclepulky* ... If you want change your current avatar.

----------


## Assam

> I should add this image:
> 
> Screen Shot 085.jpg
> 
> 
> Maybe this happy Cass is good avatar for you *unclepulky* ... If you want change your current avatar.


When Cass is happy, the world is a better place. I'm not gonna use THAT, but I am making my avatar a happy Cass. 

5_robins_and_a_batgirl_by_gabzillaz-d3iodwv.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> When Cass is happy, the world is a better place. I'm not gonna use THAT, but I am making my avatar a happy Cass. 
> 
> 5_robins_and_a_batgirl_by_gabzillaz-d3iodwv.jpg


GOOD IDEA.. I liked the image.

----------


## Assam

CassStephbabs.jpg

The Dream Team!

I had this commissioned at FlameCon 2016. Figured I'd share it here.

----------


## The Whovian

> CassStephbabs.jpg
> 
> The Dream Team!
> 
> I had this commissioned at FlameCon 2016. Figured I'd share it here.


Nice! 

10 chars

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> CassStephbabs.jpg
> 
> The Dream Team!
> 
> I had this commissioned at FlameCon 2016. Figured I'd share it here.


thats the art of beauty

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

So in the interests of talk, who do you think would be a good fight for Cass that she's never fought before?

I'd love to see her throw down with Junior from Secret Six. Or Echo, who got her own profile in the villain comic and the vanished into limbo, lol

----------


## Frontier

Has she ever fought a Speedster?

----------


## Assam

> So in the interests of talk, who do you think would be a good fight for Cass that she's never fought before?
> 
> I'd love to see her throw down with Junior from Secret Six. Or Echo, who got her own profile in the villain comic and the vanished into limbo, lol


In terms of general combat, I'd like to see her throw down with Azrael, but as a method of bonding. The two had a great, if under utilized, friendship back in the day, and I'd like to see it re-kindled. It'd just be sparring, but that's a way for Cass to communicate. 

Plus, they're the only two Bats I'd say could take a majority against Bruce in combat, so it'd just be really cool. 

As for villains, I'm kinda curious how she'd fair against Bane. Also Constantine Drakon. While Cass may be the best H2H combatant in present day DC, Dragon is hard to pin down these days, Drakon is the only one who could really hang with her speed wise.

----------


## Assam

> Has she ever fought a Speedster?


Nah. The closest she's come was Cricket, but we didn't even get to SEE the fight, and while he has Meta speed, he isn't connected to the Speed Force.

----------


## Avantre

> So in the interests of talk, who do you think would be a good fight for Cass that she's never fought before?


How about Karate Kid from the future Legion of Superheroes? Bonus points if he starts geeking that Cass was the founder of his 'super karate' school or something.

----------


## Assam

> How about Karate Kid from the future Legion of Superheroes? *Bonus points if he starts geeking that Cass was the founder of his 'super karate' school or something*.


OMG, I now want the idea that Cass is some intergalactic legend who inspired all of the styles Val knows to be canon! 

Realistically though, Cass would get destroyed by Val in a fight. Yes, Bruce stalemated A Karate Kid during Countdown, but that was the Val from Earth Prime. The Val from the main DC Earth is untouchable by any street leveler.

----------


## The Whovian

> How about Karate Kid from the future Legion of Superheroes? Bonus points if he starts geeking that Cass was the founder of his 'super karate' school or something.


That would be cool. I would LOVE to see this.

----------


## Pohzee

Midnighter

----------


## Assam

> Midnighter


Midnighter would be cool. Though only the original Wildstorm Midnighter would stand a chance of winning. DC Midnighter is about on par Dick, who's a few *tiers* below Cass in H2H.

----------


## Assam

So did anyone else here read Casstoons back in the day? I know PyroTwilight did cause I see his comments whenever I go to re-read strips, but I'm curious if anyone else has.

----------


## millernumber1

> So did anyone else here read Casstoons back in the day? I know PyroTwilight did cause I see his comments whenever I go to re-read strips, but I'm curious if anyone else has.


I read most of them through Scans-Daily. They were fun commentaries on a lot of the stupid stuff DC was doing back then.  :Smile:  Even though I'm super not a Cass/Tim shipper (though I know you and I have different preferred ships for Steph  :Wink:  ).

----------


## Badou

> Midnighter would be cool. Though only the original Wildstorm Midnighter would stand a chance of winning. DC Midnighter is about on par Dick, who's a few *tiers* below Cass in H2H.


Technically Dick beat Midnighter because he had a trick up his sleeve and the aid of those Spyral eye implants. No one in the Batman family can beat him in a straight fight given his abilities. He is kind of broken facing non super powered people.

----------


## darkseidpwns

Wildstorm Midnighter would flick Cass away like a flea, that guy was NOT street level folks. Current Midnighter still beat Prometheus while far from top shape, Deadshot, a speedster etc. He'd solidly trounce Cass as well, as mentioned Dick had a trick.

----------


## Assam

> Wildstorm Midnighter would flick Cass away like a flea, that guy was NOT street level folks. Current Midnighter still beat Prometheus while far from top shape, Deadshot, a speedster etc. He'd solidly trounce Cass as well, as mentioned Dick had a trick.


Yeah, Wildstorm Midnighter destroys the Batfamily. I'd argue Post-Crisis Cass and Full Power Azrael would beat current Midnghter though.

----------


## Assam

> Wildstorm Midnighter would flick Cass away like a flea, that guy was NOT street level folks. Current Midnighter still beat Prometheus while far from top shape, Deadshot, a speedster etc. He'd solidly trounce Cass as well, as mentioned Dick had a trick.


Yeah, Wildstorm Midnighter destroys the Batfamily. I'd argue Post-Crisis Cass and Full Power Azrael would beat current Midnghter though.

Those two really aren't street level either.

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Yeah, Wildstorm Midnighter destroys the Batfamily. I'd argue Post-Crisis Cass and Full Power Azrael would beat current Midnghter though.
> 
> Those two really aren't street level either.


Cass has always been street level, same goes for JPV Az. Only Lane at his peak was beyond street level.

I dont think there's much to argue about, he beat a speedster and Prometheus and Mawzir, these are characters JPV and Cass not beating any time soon.

----------


## Assam

> Cass has always been street level, same goes for JPV Az. Only Lane at his peak was beyond street level.
> 
> I dont think there's much to argue about, he beat a speedster and Prometheus and Mawzir, these are characters JPV and Cass not beating any time soon.


Fair enough. I admit to not knowing TOO much about Midnighter, so I'll go with you on this one.

----------


## AJpyro

Just went through Cassandra BG vol 1. I am now and forever a fan.

----------


## Assam

> just went through cassandra bg vol 1. I am now and forever a fan.


hooray!!! One of us! One of us!

----------


## Assam

heirs to the cowl.jpg

Just found this, and I gotta say it's pretty cool to see all them here. 

And even though we all know Cass is the most deserving of the mantle, surprisingly, her suit is only my second favorite. Tim of all people has my favorite, rocking the classic gray and blue. 

A bit disappointed the guy who made this left out Jean-Paul, but while I feel he's more worthy than a few of these guys (Jason, Tim, and Terry), I'm also kinda glad because his suit was, albeit intentionally, the worst.

----------


## rev516

What makes Cass the most deserving of the mantle over the others, especially Damian? From what I have been told being the Batman after Bruce is his big goal.

----------


## Carabas

> What makes Cass the most deserving of the mantle over the others, especially Damian? From what I have been told being the Batman after Bruce is his big goal.


Because Damian wants it too much. He wants to step into his father's footsteps.

Cass doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. She only cares about the mission.

----------


## Assam

> What makes Cass the most deserving of the mantle over the others, especially Damian? From what I have been told being the Batman after Bruce is his big goal.


Well, first, its always been Cass's goal as well. In her solo book, she made it clear her ultimate goal was to eventually become Batman, and Bruce was grooming her for the role. 

Next, her dedication. She is 100% committed to the cause. While she did eventually come to enjoy having a civilian life, she never saw it as a necessity. To her, all that mattered was saving people. She has the strictest no-kill code of the Family, as brought on from the fact that while every other contender, save Damian, had people they love die, Cass is the one who knows has truly horrible taking a life is. While Damian was conditioned to having no problem with it, at least at first, the instant Cass took a life, she knew it was wrong. The symbol of "The Bat" is what drives her life. 

Then there's skill. I don't think anyone will question that in terms of combat abilities, she's the best, with only Azrael and Bruce himself in her league. Of course, there's more to being Batman than combat though. It was only touched upon in her book a few times, and in Superboy once, but she was coming into her own as a detective, with training from both Bruce and Tim. And while a lot of people under play it, Cass is really smart. She isn't a genius, but she's no fool, and with all the damn tech support characters running around these days, being a super genius with a 180 IQ isn't exactly a necessity. Plus, Dick was a successful Batman, and while I'd say he is still smarter than Cass, he's no genius either. At least by comic standards. 

It's her goal, she's completely committed, and she has the talent to back it all up. And even in the areas she struggles in, she's only 20 (Pre-Flashpoint) and only 14 or 15 currently. She's got time to improve. 

So yeah, I feel she's the true heir to the cowl. 

As an aside though, I DO feel that Damian is right behind her, and that the two of them are FAR ahead of everyone else in terms of being worthy.

----------


## Fergus

> Because Damian wants it too much. He wants to step into his father's footsteps.
> 
> Cass doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. She only cares about the mission.


Well I would say that stepping into his father's footsteps is a big part of Damian but that is not all of it. I would say that he cares about both. A lot. 

He has twice now given his life for *" The mission"*

Just because Damian want's  it too much and cares for his father doesn't mean he cares less about *"The Mission"* Than Cass.

I'm going with @Darksiedpawns on this one and say that that claim is based on the fact that this is a Cass thread and @Uncleplucky is a Huge Cass fan [though i also know he has love for Damian as well]

----------


## Assam

> I'm going with @Darksiedpawns on this one and say that that claim is based solely on the fact that this is a Cass thread and @Uncleplucky is a Huge Cass fan [though i also know he has love for Damian as well]


Also, you know, the entire explanation I gave: 




> Well, first, its always been Cass's goal as well. In her solo book, she made it clear her ultimate goal was to eventually become Batman, and Bruce was grooming her for the role.
> 
> Next, her dedication. She is 100% committed to the cause. While she did eventually come to enjoy having a civilian life, she never saw it as a necessity. To her, all that mattered was saving people. She has the strictest no-kill code of the Family, as brought on from the fact that while every other contender, save Damian, had people they love die, Cass is the one who knows has truly horrible taking a life is. While Damian was conditioned to having no problem with it, at least at first, the instant Cass took a life, she knew it was wrong. The symbol of "The Bat" is what drives her life.
> 
> Then there's skill. I don't think anyone will question that in terms of combat abilities, she's the best, with only Azrael and Bruce himself in her league. Of course, there's more to being Batman than combat though. It was only touched upon in her book a few times, and in Superboy once, but she was coming into her own as a detective, with training from both Bruce and Tim. And while a lot of people under play it, Cass is really smart. She isn't a genius, but she's no fool, and with all the damn tech support characters running around these days, being a super genius with a 180 IQ isn't exactly a necessity. Plus, Dick was a successful Batman, and while I'd say he is still smarter than Cass, he's no genius either. At least by comic standards.
> 
> It's her goal, she's completely committed, and she has the talent to back it all up. And even in the areas she struggles in, she's only 20 (Pre-Flashpoint) and only 14 or 15 currently. She's got time to improve.
> 
> So yeah, I feel she's the true heir to the cowl.
> ...


Gave props to Damian there too.

----------


## Agent Z

> Well I would say that stepping into his father's footsteps is a big part of Damian but that is not all of it. I would say that he cares about both. A lot. 
> 
> He has twice now given his life for *" The mission"*
> 
> Just because Damian want's  it too much and cares for his father doesn't mean he cares less about *"The Mission"* Than Cass.
> 
> I'm going with @Darksiedpawns on this one and say that that claim is based solely on the fact that this is a Cass thread and @Uncleplucky is a Huge Cass fan [though i also know he has love for Damian as well]


One can easily claim that Damian being more of a rightful heir to the Bat mantle is just as much based on how much one is a fan of Damian.

----------


## Fergus

> Also, you know, the entire explanation I gave: 
> 
> 
> 
> Gave props to Damian there too.


Yeah saw your reply after I posted.

----------


## Fergus

> One can easily claim that Damian being more of a rightful heir to the Bat mantle is just as much based on how much one is a fan of Damian.


One can easily claim that *anyone of them being* declared rightful heir is based of how much of a fan you are of any of them.

I simply stated facts I never picked a rightful heir.

----------


## adrikito

Cass as Bruce successor? Well..

Without Damian and Dick. She would be my first choice  :Cool:

----------


## Assam

> Cass as Bruce successor? Well..
> 
> Without Damian and Dick. She would be my first choice


Fair enough.  :Smile:    Damian as I said comes close IMO, and Dick I put just below them alongside Tim and Jean-Paul.

And considering how much I like all those others more than Dick, you can tell I'm at least TRYING to overcome my personal bias, and be objective.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Agent Z

For anyone who's interested, here's an ongoing Cass Cain Batgirl fanfic that's been written since 2005.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

K.K and Midnighter are probably too much...then again, current Midnighter struggled with Dick who Cass effortlessy defeated, and no i'm talking only about the "trick" thing, IMO throught the "grayson series" there was very strong evidence that current Midnighter is not anywhere near wildstorm Midnighter...plus, what feats does current prometheus have?
Btw, K.K and Cass bounding about martial arts would be awesome! i actually now want to see it as well  :Cool:  him and Shiva debating martial arts would be gold  :Smile:  and him talking with Cass about who would win in a fight would be gold as well  :Smile:

----------


## bat_girl_cc

IIRC even K.K at his prime, had trouble once when he fought the guards of dream girls world, because they had pre-cog...Cass kinda has pre-cog as well...so...nah, just kidding she would lose, but i would like to see they talking about it, after taking down some amazing villain together.

----------


## Assam

So in next week's 'Tec, Cass will likely meet Ra's. For a second after realizing this, I thought it'd be cool if they went the route that Cass was the League's messiah again (As many problems as Gabrych's run had, that was one thing I kinda liked, especially the name "One Who is All"), buuuuuuut then I remembered her new shitty origin revolves around Mother and Harper. 

Damn it DC...

----------


## AJpyro

> For anyone who's interested, here's an ongoing Cass Cain Batgirl fanfic that's been written since 2005.


Uh...link?

----------


## Assam

So I know a lot of other Cass fans really hate Strix, seeing her as nothing but a rip-off, but I personally I love her. I dunno what she was like in the pages of Batgirl or Bird of Prey, but in Secret Six, she was the stand out star, and I was able to see a lot of difference from Cass in her personality. 

I'd really love to see the two interact at some point, because they still DO have a lot in common, but in a way I think would be amazing to see them play off each other. 

I know people want Gail Simone to stay away from Cass, but she's admitted she screwed up writing Cass in the past, and the "Angel of the Bat" thing is years behind us, and odds are, she's the only one who would have the two hang out. 

Honestly though, I'd just settle for some fan art of the two drinking Assam, surrounded by Strix's lawn gnome army.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Uh...link?


https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2542344...in-The-Batgirl

God damn, 2005? Be kind and leave a review after all that work, eh?  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> So I know a lot of other Cass fans really hate Strix, seeing her as nothing but a rip-off, but I personally I love her. I dunno what she was like in the pages of Batgirl or Bird of Prey, but in Secret Six, she was the stand out star, and I was able to see a lot of difference from Cass in her personality. 
> 
> I'd really love to see the two interact at some point, because they still DO have a lot in common, but in a way I think would be amazing to see them play off each other. 
> 
> I know people want Gail Simone to stay away from Cass, but she's admitted she screwed up writing Cass in the past, and the "Angel of the Bat" thing is years behind us, and odds are, she's the only one who would have the two hang out. 
> 
> Honestly though, I'd just settle for some fan art of the two drinking Assam, surrounded by Strix's lawn gnome army.


Well, I've said before that Angel of the Bat sounded cool, and I'm enjoying the fanfic that's currently ongoing about it.  :Smile:  I'm still not completely sure how Simone screwed up Cass - was it in the Canary training sequence?

I quite like Strix as well, though Simone's Batgirl run was incredibly dreary, and I loathe the art.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I've said before that Angel of the Bat sounded cool, and I'm enjoying the fanfic that's currently ongoing about it.  I'm still not completely sure how Simone screwed up Cass - was it in the Canary training sequence?
> 
> I quite like Strix as well, though Simone's Batgirl run was incredibly dreary, and I loathe the art.


There's definitely some merit to the Angel of the Bat in concept (I've heard good things about the fanfic), but in a lot of ways (obviously not the unbeatable ninja part), I've always related to Cass, and, like Simone herself, I'm an Atheist. So yeah, for me, it's more of a personal thing. 

I don't have a problem with the training sequence in itself. It's that when Cass was used in Simone's Birds of Prey, two times, she wrote her as chatty as anyone else. Even by the end of her ongoing she wasn't talking like she did there. Simone's admitted her mistake there, and has expressed a desire to make up for it. A fan theory is that Cass's BoP appearances were all Beechen read for research when he wrote EvilCass. 

All I've seen of the art of Simone's Batgirl run are the covers, and while those don't look too bad, controversial opinion here, I actually think the Burnside suit looks better on the page than Simone's.

----------


## millernumber1

> There's definitely some merit to the Angel of the Bat in concept (I've heard good things about the fanfic), but in a lot of ways (obviously not the unbeatable ninja part), I've always related to Cass, and, like Simone herself, I'm an Atheist. So yeah, for me, it's more of a personal thing. 
> 
> I don't have a problem with the training sequence in itself. It's that when Cass was used in Simone's Birds of Prey, two times, she wrote her as chatty as anyone else. Even by the end of her ongoing she wasn't talking like she did there. Simone's admitted her mistake there, and has expressed a desire to make up for it. A fan theory is that Cass's BoP appearances were all Beechen read for research when he wrote EvilCass. 
> 
> All I've seen of the art of Simone's Batgirl run are the covers, and while those don't look too bad, controversial opinion here, I actually think the Burnside suit looks better on the page than Simone's.


Totally fair. I'm the same, but on the other "side" - I'd like a Cass who shares some of my outlook on life.  :Smile: 

Ah, the chatty problem. I can see that.

The covers for Simone's run were often really great - the Hughes ones for the first arc, and later, the Alex Garner ones, are really lovely. Not to get too sidetracked, since I love the appreciation threads being about their, you know, appreciative character, but I personally don't get why people hate on either Simone's or the Burnside suits. I think they're both very visually striking when the right artist draws them - Garner for Simone's, and Claire Roe for Burnside. (I think coloring also has a huge thing to do with it - Pasarin and Syaf's coloring for Simone's run was ugly grey-dominated, while Garner's covers highlighted the black and gold contrast, and Allan Passalaqua's coloring is always incredible for Batgirl and the Birds of Prey).

Which brings me to a question (that I might know the answer for  :Smile:  ) - who's your favorite Cass artist for the costume? (My guess - Damion Scott - though that's just for uncle, any other Cass fan, please chime in!) I've already said I love Trevor McCarthy for Black Bat, but I think if I had to choose an artist for the original Cass Batgirl suit, it'd be Phil Noto, even though I really hate the issue he drew.

----------


## Assam

> Which brings me to a question (that I might know the answer for  ) - who's your favorite Cass artist for the costume? (My guess - Damion Scott - though that's just for uncle, any other Cass fan, please chime in!) I've already said I love Trevor McCarthy for Black Bat, but I think if I had to choose an artist for the original Cass Batgirl suit, it'd be Phil Noto, even though I really hate the issue he drew.


You're on the money about Scott being my favorite artist on the suit, but I will add that Ale Garza drew my favorite civilian Cass.

civvie cass.jpg

ALL THE ADORKOBLENESS!

----------


## millernumber1

> You're on the money about Scott being my favorite artist on the suit, but I will add that Ale Garza drew my favorite civilian Cass.
> 
> civvie cass.jpg
> 
> ALL THE ADORKOBLENESS!


Nice!  :Smile:  Did he draw Cass singing in the bath too?

----------


## Assam

> Nice!  Did he draw Cass singing in the bath too?


Garza pretty much drew the whole Gabrych run, so probably. I'll admit I'm not usually a fan of Garza's art, Graduation Day is a prime example of how bad it can be, but with Cass, he managed to go against his normal instinct to over-sexualize female characters.  All he did was give her more realistic proportions and facial features as opposed to Scott's more cartoony style (which I still really like).

----------


## adrikito

> you're on the money about scott being my favorite artist on the suit, but i will add that ale garza drew my favorite civilian cass.
> 
> civvie cass.jpg
> 
> all the adorkobleness!


ohhhh... I like this costume.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> ohhhh... I like this costume.


Cass was invited to a party by her friend Brenda. This was her attempt to put together an outfit.  :Wink: 

She's the character I relate to more than any other, and that goes right down to our mutual lack of fashion sense.

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Cool:   :Wink: 

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

----------


## shadowsgirl

4.jpg

10char

----------


## shadowsgirl

sweet  :Cool: 

cass_and_steph_fe_by_kiarou-d7hqk9c.jpg

----------


## Assam

Skull Cass.jpg

Beautiful. 

adorable.jpg

Adorable.

----------


## Caivu

Just some more (likely) confirmation that Cass is staying in 'Tec after "League of Shadows".

There's this in-progress panel from Alvaro Martínez, probably from #959:

IMG_20170408_102500.jpg

And if we zoom in on the figures...

Screenshot_20170408-102508.jpg

Looks most like Cass's silhouette. Other art from this arc makes me think #958 picks up immediately after the end of "LoS".

----------


## Assam

Jason and Cass.jpg

I'd never want either of these two in these roles, but Marcus To's art is still fantastic.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

Looks like they're gonna try to restore Cass' pre Rebirth cred.

Good

----------


## Assam

> Looks like they're gonna try to restore Cass' pre Rebirth cred.
> 
> Good


Yeeeeeeah, just one tiny problem:

SHE'S USING SWORDS AND SEEMINGLY KILLING PEOPLE!!!

Yes, we've seen her use his swords before (against Ravager in her own book and against a group of soldiers in BatO), but it was made very clear in those books that she was careful to make everyone stayed alive. If that isn't the case here, I will NEVER see this as the real Cass.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

Yeah, her killing people means Not The Same Character At All™.  

Might as well have NuBatman killing people and being okay with it.

----------


## Agent Z

> Yeeeeeeah, just one tiny problem:
> 
> SHE'S USING SWORDS AND SEEMINGLY KILLING PEOPLE!!!
> 
> Yes, we've seen her use his swords before (against Ravager in her own book and against a group of soldiers in BatO), but it was made very clear in those books that she was careful to make everyone stayed alive. If that isn't the case here, I will NEVER see this as the real Cass.


If she's doing it in self defense or defense of others, it may not be too bad. As long as they show she's not getting off it like Beechen's abomination, I'll be good.

----------


## Assam

> If she's doing it in self defense or defense of others, it may not be too bad. As long as they show she's not getting off it like Beechen's abomination, I'll be good.


NO! Other heroes killing in self-defense? Fine. But NOT Cass. She has the strongest "no kill" code of any character in the DCU.

Any one of those assassins is dead? Tynion's as dead to me as Beechen.

----------


## millernumber1

I really don't think Cass is killing anyone at all.

----------


## Assam

> I really don't think Cass is killing anyone at all.


I hope you're right.

----------


## Frontier

The placement of some of those swords was...disturbing to say the least, given Cass' traditional stance against killing, but either they were non-lethal blows that weren't conveyed as well as they could have been or the League of Shadows's rank and file aren't exactly "human" so she's not taking any actual lives.

----------


## millernumber1

> The placement of some of those swords was...disturbing to say the least, given Cass' traditional stance against killing, but either they were non-lethal blows that weren't conveyed as well as they could have been or the League of Shadows's rank and file aren't exactly "human" so she's not taking any actual lives.


Zombie Ninjas!

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

I hope Tynion understands the LAST thing Cass-fans want to see is her killing people. Cass who used to take shots from an assault rifle to prevent her enemies getting hit in the crossfire.

----------


## btmarine23

I admit to being behind in reading and not fully understanding/living through the history of Cass.  I've recently caught up on the last 10 or so issues of Detective and I think its my favorite book now.  Cass is slowly becoming my favorite character..I was curious what do people think of her outfit and name "Orphan"?  I read the wiki and looked on line..just curious what people think.  If there was one TPB you could read about Cass…what would it be?

----------


## Caivu

> I was curious what do people think of her outfit and name "Orphan"?


I like it a lot more than most do, but I'd agree it's not the best. But it makes sense why she chose it, and makes it all the more meaningful if she changes her name after the current arc, since it would no longer apply to her on two levels.

I like her outfit even more than her name. It's evocative of her Batgirl design without copying it, and the basic form looks like a plausible training uniform, which based on flashbacks, it was.

----------


## Assam

> I admit to being behind in reading and not fully understanding/living through the history of Cass.  I've recently caught up on the last 10 or so issues of Detective and I think its my favorite book now.  Cass is slowly becoming my favorite character..I was curious what do people think of her outfit and name "Orphan"?  I read the wiki and looked on line..just curious what people think.  If there was one TPB you could read about Cass…what would it be?


Speaking as Cass's number 1 fan, I'm happy to hear you're growing to like her so much. 

While the name makes sense, I still don't like her "Orphan". She'll always just be "Cass" in my head, but "Orphan" is really bad for building her brand. I don't like the suit either. 

As for the single trade, there's really only one option in terms of where to start: Batgirl Vol 1: Silent Knight. It collects the first 12 issues of her solo book, plus an annual, and while these aren't the best issues of her book, those come in the 2nd and 3rd volumes of her solo, THIS is where you start if you want to become a real Cass fan.

NOTE: Her solo book was not where she originated. She first appeared during No Man's Land. Her appearances there are great, but you really can start with issue #1 of her solo without any trouble.

----------


## paurru

This messageboard thread for Batgirl Cassandra Cain, the same one from way back in 2002 or 2003 where her outfit was all black with a stitched up mouth for the mask? I love the old comic. It had and still has some good moments in some of the old issues that I still have.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> The placement of some of those swords was...disturbing to say the least, given Cass' traditional stance against killing, but either they were non-lethal blows that weren't conveyed as well as they could have been or the League of Shadows's rank and file aren't exactly "human" so she's not taking any actual lives.


Given that in JLA: Elite, old school Cassandra Cain was 'pressure pointing' people with swords so that their hearts stopped but they remained alive for 24 hours (waaaaat), it's certainly possible this version is using non-lethal blows.




> I admit to being behind in reading and not fully understanding/living through the history of Cass.  I've recently caught up on the last 10 or so issues of Detective and I think its my favorite book now.  Cass is slowly becoming my favorite character..I was curious what do people think of her outfit and name "Orphan"?  I read the wiki and looked on line..just curious what people think.  If there was one TPB you could read about Cass…what would it be?


I'm okay with the outfit (it's a little generic, but that's fine), but don't like the mask.  Orphan...I don't like the name.  




> As for the single trade, there's really only one option in terms of where to start: Batgirl Vol 1: Silent Knight. It collects the first 12 issues of her solo book, plus an annual, and while these aren't the best issues of her book, those come in the 2nd and 3rd volumes of her solo, THIS is where you start if you want to become a real Cass fan.


Pretty much what he said.  Collect all of her old TPB - Silent Running, A Knight Alone, Death Wish, Fists of Fury (less necessary), Kicking Assassins, and Destruction's Daughter.

Might be good to pick up her crossover TPB with Robin as well: Fresh Blood.

----------


## Assam

> Pretty much what he said.  Collect all of her old TPB - Silent Running, A Knight Alone, Death Wish, Fists of Fury (less necessary), Kicking Assassins, and Destruction's Daughter.
> 
> Might be good to pick up her crossover TPB with Robin as well: Fresh Blood.


Getting the old trades really isn't necessary anymore. The entire Puckett run has been collected in just 3 trades in the past couple years, and hopefully, the Horrocks and Gabrych runs will be coming soon.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

Really? 

Dammit.  Need to get that.

----------


## Assam

punkcass.jpg

A lot of people seem to like Cass as a punk.

----------


## Assam

Something I'm really hoping to see after the current arc of 'Tec is Cass coming out of her shell more. For example, something no writer has replicated since her solo book was her dry sense of humor. A lot of people, shamefully, think that Cass is bland and always stoic, but as WE know, while Dick and Tim have their quips, and Damian has downright arrogance,  Cass had her own form of sardonic wit, and just with a few words too. 

You always lose.jpg

----------


## Assam

CAAAAAAAAAAS.jpg

It's the all too rare non-Batbook Cass sighting, so I figured this variant cover was worth posting here. 

It's also worth noting that if everyone here was acting in character, the area around Cass would be a complete mess.

----------


## Caivu

C2E2 sketch by Marcio Takara:

Screenshot_20170417-160533.jpg

----------


## Assam

> C2E2 sketch by Marcio Takara:
> 
> Screenshot_20170417-160533.jpg


I LOVE IT. He drew her face the same way Damian Scott did, but more realistic and less cartoony.

EDIT: Upon further looking, Takara has drawn Cass A LOT, outside of comics at least, and all of his takes on her are awesome.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Cass is 16-17 years old according to Tynion

----------


## Assam

> Cass is 16-17 years old according to Tynion


Ha! I don't know who it was that got me to think she was 14 or 15, but I'm really happy to see she's not that young. 

Basically, she's the same age she was when she was first introduced, and since this Cass IS very much a different character, I'm pretty okay with that.

----------


## Frontier

> *Ha! I don't know who it was that got me to think she was 14 or 15*, but I'm really happy to see she's not that young. 
> 
> Basically, she's the same age she was when she was first introduced, and since this Cass IS very much a different character, I'm pretty okay with that.


She kinda seems that way art-wise at times.

----------


## Assam

> She kinda seems that way art-wise at times.


youth.jpg

badass.jpg

She definitely has a more youthful look than she used to, but that's just a matter of different artists. It's not like Cass has EVER been consistently drawn a certain way since Scott.

----------


## The Whovian

> C2E2 sketch by Marcio Takara:
> 
> Screenshot_20170417-160533.jpg


That is sweet!

----------


## millernumber1

Mmmff, I love that Takara Cass.  :Smile:

----------


## Zainu

> Ha! I don't know who it was that got me to think she was 14 or 15, but I'm really happy to see she's not that young. 
> 
> Basically, she's the same age she was when she was first introduced, and since this Cass IS very much a different character, I'm pretty okay with that.


Eh? But he really said that he estimated her to be 14-15 in an interview a long time ago  :Frown:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Eh? But he really said that he estimated her to be 14-15 in an interview a long time ago


I thought it was one of the artists who worked on Batman and Robin Eternal who said that?

----------


## Assam

> I thought it was one of the artists who worked on Batman and Robin Eternal who said that?


Actually, both estimates could be right. If she was 15 when the first interview was given, and she's 16 now. 

Remember, MONTHS have passed since Rebirth started. January 26th could have whisked by.

----------


## Assam

I really hope Rebirth, or whatever comes after, brings back Onyx at some point (Future's End doesn't count) 

onyx.jpg

Come to think of it... Jean-Paul, Onyx, Superboy...what was it with giving Cass amazing relationships, and then never DOING anything with them?

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Cass is 16-17 years old according to Tynion


Just old enough to be considered old enough to be able to throw her life away, just like pre-Rebirth  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

From the C2E2 Rebirth panel happening right now:

IMG_20170421_163740.jpg

----------


## Assam

Holy crap...I may still wish more was done with Cass's character work (Outside of the amazing issue #950), but this still looks like it's gonna be pretty badass. Better not be one dead body though

----------


## millernumber1

Shivers. Takara plus Tynion plus Cass has been a winning combo so far!

----------


## Assam

> Shivers. Takara plus Tynion plus Cass has been a winning combo so far!


Should Cass ever get another solo book, or even my team book idea I thought of earlier with Cass, Steph, Harper, and Clayface gets made, I'd want Takara doing the art. He draws Cass better than anyone else has since her solo book ended. (I'd still really like to see NuCass drawn in more civilian clothes. We got a few glimpses during Victim Syndicate, but I want more)

----------


## millernumber1

> Should Cass ever get another solo book, or even my team book idea I thought of earlier with Cass, Steph, Harper, and Clayface gets made, I'd want Takara doing the art. He draws Cass better than anyone else has since her solo book ended. (I'd still really like to see NuCass drawn in more civilian clothes. We got a few glimpses during Victim Syndicate, but I want more)


Well, currently she's in the phase of "what's the point of a civilian identity?" Hopefully this arc will pull her to a better place.

----------


## Assam

> Well, currently she's in the phase of "what's the point of a civilian identity?" Hopefully this arc will pull her to a better place.


Yeah, but it took her around 60 issues to realize the point of a civilian life in her solo book, and we were still seeing her out of costume plenty. This just doesn't seem like the kind of book where showing characters being themselves out of costume is a priority.

As I said in an earlier post though, I do hope you're right that this will put her in a better place, and more of her classic personality will rise to the surface.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, but it took her around 60 issues to realize the point of a civilian life in her solo book, and we were still seeing her out of costume plenty. This just doesn't seem like the kind of book where showing characters being themselves out of costume is a priority.
> 
> As I said in an earlier post though, I do hope you're right that this will put her in a better place, and more of her classic personality will rise to the surface.


I disagree - we saw quite a bit of the characters out of costume in both The Victim Syndicate and in 950. Cass just doesn't have a life outside of the costume yet.

----------


## Zainu

WHOAAA! That spread!  :EEK!:  that's definitely the kinda fight scene that Cass deserves.

----------


## Zainu

> I really hope Rebirth, or whatever comes after, brings back Onyx at some point (Future's End doesn't count) 
> 
> Attachment 48308
> 
> Come to think of it... Jean-Paul, Onyx, Superboy...what was it with giving Cass amazing relationships, and then never DOING anything with them?


DC giving me dreams, and then crushing them  :Mad:  especially with Superboy. They had something cute going on.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

I'm afraid Cass has become a bit flanderized in this arc if all she ends up doing is fighting.

----------


## Assam

> I'm afraid Cass has become a bit flanderized in this arc if all she ends up doing is fighting.


That's what I've been thinking from the start, not helped by the fact that, with a few exceptions, all she's done in the whole book at this point is fight. My two hopes right now, are 1) The arc ends with what Kate mentioned at the beginning, her and Bruce taking her to a baseball game or ballet, and more importantly 2) After the arc, more of her classic personality re-appears.

----------


## AJpyro

I put in the order for Cass vol 2. Last one is gonna be bundled with YJ and RHatO.

----------


## Assam

> I put in the order for Cass vol 2. Last one is gonna be bundled with YJ and RHatO.


WOOH! Those first 3 volumes make up the entire Puckett run (my favorite comic run of all time). 

While the Horrocks and Gabrych runs I'd only call "good" as a whole, there are still some issues and elements in those runs I absolutely love, and I hope we see them get collected soon.

----------


## AJpyro

> WOOH! *Those first 3 volumes make up the entire Puckett run* (my favorite comic run of all time). 
> 
> While the Horrocks and Gabrych runs I'd only call "good" as a whole, there are still some issues and elements in those runs I absolutely love, and I hope we see them get collected soon.


Wait, really? I was gonna get more just for puckett. But hey, 30+ issues is all good for me.

----------


## Assam

> Wait, really? I was gonna get more just for puckett. But hey, 30+ issues is all good for me.


Yeah, the first 37 issues are Puckett and Scott, with occasional guest writers and artists who were usually able to match their quality. It doesn't sound like much, but its basically half of the total book. 

Some fun and cool things to look forward to in the heavily flawed, but still good runs are: Cass's fling with Superboy, Cass making a number of new interesting friends, both heroes and civilians, a team-up between her and Steph as Robin, "Bludhaven's Dynamic Duo", glimpses at a Cass with a real civilian life, and, of course, the only all-out fight between Bruce and Cass.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

To be fair, the 'all-out-fight' between Cass and Bruce was 'Cass trying to communicate her frustration, Bruce realizing this and going with it'.  ^_^

----------


## Assam

> To be fair, the 'all-out-fight' between Cass and Bruce was 'Cass trying to communicate her frustration, Bruce realizing this and going with it'.  ^_^


Yeah, and the deeper meaning behind that fight only made it better! I just didn't want to spoil that part for them.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The brief talk after the fight where Cass spells out her motivation is just as great as the fight itself. 

Plus, I think the fact that Dick and Tim were basically helpless to do anything to stop the fight, even before Bruce told them to stay out of the way, showed that the two really weren't playing around.

----------


## Assam

So DC has basically thrown up their hands and said whatever you want to be canon is canon, citing specifically that the Justice League has been around for over 15 years, and that whatever you don't want to be canon isn't.   So my personal headcanon right now regarding Cass, taking into account that the events of the current arc take place BEFORE the timeline's restoration, is this: 

Age 0 (The youngest I can justifiably make Cass in my head thanks to the expanded timeline is 19 BTW)- Shiva and David have Cass. David has his original personality, and has no connection to mother. Cass's flashback about him in 'Tec is not canon. David never spoke to Cass. BR:E is not canon for the most part. More on that in a moment. 

Age 9: As just a simple hit he's been paid to do, David sends out Cass for her first kill, but rather than it being the gangster, its Harper's mom. (So long as Harper exists, and I want her relationship with Cass to exist, this has to be the case) Cass runs away. 

Age 9-15: Cass wanders, helping people from the sidelines without being seen, and just observing the world. 

Age 15: The events of NML play out as normal, but with Cass two years younger than originally. With Barabra confirmed as having been Oracle at a point, this can fit. Cass becomes Batgirl. 

Age 15-17: ALL of Cass's solo book happens, but with the differences that Steph never "died" and she didn't "kill" Shiva at the end. EVILCASS DOES NOT FOLLOW. Instead, this is where Bruce officially adopts her.(If a new adoption scene is ever shown in 'Tec, this event moves there) Also during this time, Cass meets Harper, and the two work out their issues, becoming friends. 

Age 17: Cass, feeling bad for Steph after getting fired as Robin (In this timeline, War Games does not happen), and having a rough time since, hands her the Batgirl mantle, taking up the name Orphan...for _some_  reason  :Stick Out Tongue:  I dunno, maybe Steph or Harper made an un-tasteful joke about it, and Cass takes them seriously. 

Age 17-18: Orphan, Bluebird, and Batgirl all fight crime together and are best friends, Batgirl also working with Oracle and Proxy. Near the end of this period, Babs gets the ability to walk back, and Steph, having been re-motivated by her time as Batgirl, decides she no longer needs it, and hands it back to Babs. Steph returns to being Spoiler. 

Age 19: Most of the events in 'Tec take place, with changes as necessary based off what I've said.EX.  Steph's "betrayal" in Victim Syndicate has a much bigger impact on Cass, Steph never said that Cass was "barely a person", and this current arc with Shiva is obviously no longer their first meeting, but just another confrontation with her. 

I know all of this doesn't make complete sense, but with fans basically being told that all headcanons are equally valid if something has ever happened on page and you like it, this is what I'm going with. 

Thoughts?

----------


## adrikito

> Thoughts?


Even with Harper....... Good avatar.

Good. You see important things and things that should be forgotten.

----------


## Assam

> Even with Harper....... Good avatar.
> 
> You would be an excellent member of DC.


I actually do plan on attempting to become a writer in the industry. Obviously, I'm starting with my own indi book, as well as a novel I'm working on, but my eventual dream is to write for DC, and I say this with no hyperbole: If I could write a Cass solo book, I could die happy. 

That dream is far off, but I'm only in college. I've got plenty of time. 

Oh, and some people may say that since I'm her #1 fan, I shouldn't ever write a Cass solo because I'd let the fanboy in me get in the way of good writing...yeah, I've been writing Cass fanfics for years (most never released). At this point, I consider myself a better Cass  writer than everyone who wrote her between her solo book and BR:E. People have told me I get her voice right, and while I may love her to death, I know her limits. I wouldn't ever have her punch out Darkseid for instance XD.

----------


## adrikito

> I actually do plan on attempting to become a writer in the industry. Obviously, I'm starting with my own indi book, as well as a novel I'm working on, but my eventual dream is to write for DC, and I say this with no hyperbole:* If I could write a Cass solo book, I could die happy.* 
> 
> That dream is far off, but I'm only in college. I've got plenty of time. 
> .


I desire you GOOD LUCK.

----------


## Assam

> I desire you GOOD LUCK.


Thanks!  :Embarrassment: 

10char

----------


## adrikito

> Thanks! 
> 
> 10char


I am good drawing.. In the past, I even make my own stories with my own heroes.. One of my final villains was similar to Jinpachi Mishima(Without his monster form) of Tekken with Muten Roshi 100% Power muscles..

This is a thing of the past but I remember his designs... Even now, my drawings are still good..

----------


## Assam

> I am good drawing.. In the past, I even make my own stories with my own heroes.. One of my final villains(familiar of my main character) was similar to Jinpachi Mishima of Tekken, one big old man with big muscles.. 
> 
> This is a thing of the past but I remember his designs... Even now, my drawings are still good..


A fellow Tekken fan. Neat! 

Pretty cool that you're an artist. Unfortunately, do to my delayed motor skills, I can't draw AT ALL.

----------


## Aahz

> Thoughts?


I kind of doubt that they will retcon the Eternals out of existence (unfortunatly). So Steph and Cass will very likely keep their current origins.

----------


## Assam

> I kind of doubt that they will retcon the Eternals out of existence (unfortunatly). So Steph and Cass will very likely keep their current origins.


That's the beauty of it though! Continuity has been thrown out the damn window! They can print what they want on the page, but, like with Doctor Who, every headcanon is equally valid! 

Example: Batman's whole history has been restored. Okay, that means that No Man's Land happened. Fan 1 may say that Gordon was saved by the sudden arrival of Nightwing kicking David Cain. Fan 2(Me) may say that what _originally_ happened, happened. 

Nothing makes sense anymore! New writers after this is done are just gonna make things worse! 

AND ITS AMAZING!

After decades of continuity nightmares, without pissing off the fans they brought in with the NU52, and just re-setting everything to the way they were Pre-Flashpoint, this was probably the smartest decision they could have made.

----------


## rev516

> So DC has basically thrown up their hands and said whatever you want to be canon is canon, citing specifically that the Justice League has been around for over 15 years, and that whatever you don't want to be canon isn't.   So my personal headcanon right now regarding Cass, taking into account that the events of the current arc take place BEFORE the timeline's restoration, is this: 
> 
> Age 0 (The youngest I can justifiably make Cass in my head thanks to the expanded timeline is 19 BTW)- Shiva and David have Cass. David has his original personality, and has no connection to mother. Cass's flashback about him in 'Tec is not canon. David never spoke to Cass. BR:E is not canon for the most part. More on that in a moment. 
> 
> Age 9: As just a simple hit he's been paid to do, David sends out Cass for her first kill, but rather than it being the gangster, its Harper's mom. (So long as Harper exists, and I want her relationship with Cass to exist, this has to be the case) Cass runs away. 
> 
> Age 9-15: Cass wanders, helping people from the sidelines without being seen, and just observing the world. 
> 
> Age 15: The events of NML play out as normal, but with Cass two years younger than originally. With Barabra confirmed as having been Oracle at a point, this can fit. Cass becomes Batgirl. 
> ...


Where did you hear the Justice League part? I'm a bit lost.

----------


## Assam

> Where did you hear the Justice League part? I'm a bit lost.


https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...g-around-c2e2/

Drink it all in.

----------


## Desean101101

I think we can say no mans land did not happen the way people think

----------


## rev516

So if I'm reading this right, presumably Bruce will get his ten years back, and both New 52-Rebirth and Pre 52 histories of Bruce will be merged.

Holy crap that sounds awesome. And complicated.

----------


## sakuyamons

Tynion just confirmed on twitter that Cass is staying on the team after this arc!  :Stick Out Tongue:  in case any of you were nervous

----------


## Assam

> Tynion just confirmed on twitter that Cass is staying on the team after this arc!  in case any of you were nervous


Even though we kind of knew this already from his recent interview, this is still really nice to hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M

Also, its probably just a matter of the arc now almost being over, but I think we might have worn him down. Myself, several other people I know, and no doubt many others had asked him on Twitter about this before.

----------


## millernumber1

I was right!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Tynion confirmed on Twitter that everyone Cass has beaten up is still alive...with that concern gone...

I'M GOING TO ENJOY TOMORROW'S FIGHT!!!

----------


## millernumber1

> Tynion confirmed on Twitter that everyone Cass has beaten up is still alive...with that concern gone...
> 
> I'M GOING TO ENJOY TOMORROW'S FIGHT!!!


I just want to say...

I KNEW IT! I knew Cass wouldn't kill anyone! Never crossed my mind for a second!

----------


## Assam

> I just want to say...
> 
> I KNEW IT! I knew Cass wouldn't kill anyone! Never crossed my mind for a second!


You had more faith in Tynion than I did. With this, the usual high quality of his writing, and the fact that he's not continuing the cycle of rotating the team, even if there are still lots of problems with his writing, he's earned the benefit of the doubt from me. Three cheers for Tynion!

...

OK, so it's 12:07 AM my time, and I only buy my comics physically. I really don't think I'm gonna be able to sleep knowing what's awaiting me in the morning.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> You had more faith in Tynion than I did. With this, the usual high quality of his writing, and the fact that he's not continuing the cycle of rotating the team, even if there are still lots of problems with his writing, he's earned the benefit of the doubt from me. Three cheers for Tynion!
> 
> ...
> 
> OK, so it's 12:07 AM my time, and I only buy my comics physically. I really don't think I'm gonna be able to sleep knowing what's awaiting me in the morning.


What can I say? He's made some mistakes, but I think he's one of the best writers DC currently has going for them!

----------


## Assam

> What can I say? He's made some mistakes, but I think he's one of the best writers DC currently has going for them!


Flaws and all, and aided by the fact that without him, we might not have gotten Cass and Steph back in any form, he's definitely _somewhere_ in my top 10 current DC writers.

----------


## millernumber1

> Flaws and all, and aided by the fact that without him, we might not have gotten Cass and Steph back in any form, he's definitely _somewhere_ in my top 10 current DC writers.


 :Smile: 

So, does anyone think that the narration this week feels satisfyingly like an homage to the narration of #73?

----------


## Assam

'Tec #955...

I've made it no secret that I generally have some issues with how Tynion writes Cass. However, _given_ the current situation and factors at play, I think he finally got her right! For the first time in a LONG, LONG time, I felt like this was a book where I was hearing _Cass_, and not how a writer thinks she talks, AND its kinda opened my eyes to more of what Tynion was going with for her voice, not necessarily from the start, but in this arc. 

The narration was really nice and fit with the themes really well, and I hope Christine is kept around, potentially as a supporting character for when Cass is put in a solo or a smaller team.

Throw in Takara's GORGEOUS art, strong writing as a whole (something that matters much more to be than action), and a pretty damn good fight scene (although I'll always argue more stylized art is better for Cass fight scenes than realistic art), I think this beats out 'Te950 as my favorite single issue from DC since the Rebirth one-shot. 

Also, ORPHAN IS GONE! YES! I KNEW IT!

Also, also:  When did Shiva's sister get into novel writing?

----------


## millernumber1

> 'Tec #955...
> 
> I've made it no secret that I generally have some issues with how Tynion writes Cass. However, _given_ the current situation and factors at play, I think he finally got her right! For the first time in a LONG, LONG time, I felt like this was a book where I was hearing _Cass_, and not how a writer thinks she talks, AND its kinda opened my eyes to more of what Tynion was going with for her voice, not necessarily from the start, but in this arc. 
> 
> The narration was really nice and fit with the themes really well, and I hope Christine is kept around, potentially as a supporting character for when Cass is put in a solo or a smaller team.
> 
> Throw in Takara's GORGEOUS art, strong writing as a whole (something that matters much more to be than action), and a pretty damn good fight scene (although I'll always argue more stylized art is better for Cass fight scenes than realistic art), I think this beats out 'Te950 as my favorite single issue from DC since the Rebirth one-shot. 
> 
> Also, ORPHAN IS GONE! YES! I KNEW IT!
> ...


So glad you also enjoyed it! I was very moved rereading it (first time I was focusing too much on the whole "what happened" things to react emotionally).

Totally missed the writer of Christine's story - I tried to read it, but couldn't quite make it out.

Over/under on Cass decided to take the name "Shadow" now?  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> Over/under on Cass decided to take the name "Shadow" now?


"Shadow" is still generic, and the name of a classic pulp hero of course, and while I wouldn't mind "ShadowBat" at all, there would obviously be people making jokes about how its just one letter off from Marvel's "ShadowCat."

----------


## millernumber1

> "Shadow" is still generic, and the name of a classic pulp hero of course, and while I wouldn't mind "ShadowBat" at all, there would obviously be people making jokes about how its just one letter off from Marvel's "ShadowCat."


ShadowBat - I just suggested this elsewhere!  :Smile:

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> ShadowBat - I just suggested this elsewhere!


I kind of like shadow because it is linked to her owning her past and all facets of her character and not letting them rule her.  But without character, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a pets name.

----------


## Assam

You know, while I'm pretty positive we'll see them go at it again in the next issue, I'm actually really glad the final fight isn't JUST gonna be Cass vs Shiva. As far as climactic fights between the two go, they're never topping Batgirl #25 IMO, and so its smart for them to be going with the whole team approach.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Doubt they're going to name her Shadow especially since they just released a Batman/The Shadow crossover today. Would cause too much confusion.

----------


## millernumber1

> Doubt they're going to name her Shadow especially since they just released a Batman/The Shadow crossover today. Would cause too much confusion.


Bring on the confusion! We can take it!

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Though Cass stealing names from different Pulp heroes would be a hilarious running gag.

----------


## Assam

> Though Cass stealing names from different Pulp heroes would be a hilarious running gag.


Shit, Black Bat WAS a pulp hero's name too, wasn't it? 

I sincerely doubt that they'll go with Shadow for the reasons we've already gone over, but that is entirely the kind of gag I would be 100% Ok with.

----------


## RebirthgotmebackintoDC

> Shit, Black Bat WAS a pulp hero's name too, wasn't it? 
> 
> I sincerely doubt that they'll go with Shadow for the reasons we've already gone over, but that is entirely the kind of gag I would be 100% Ok with.


Maybe she will be batgirl again! Maybe bruce looks at Barbara and is like "W-W-W-What are you wearing!? Are you taking selfies!? Nope you're done. Cass, come here, you're Batgirl now, but don't wear that purpled stitched together garbage Barbara wore, or so help me...Seriously. Ugly."

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Shit, Black Bat WAS a pulp hero's name too, wasn't it? 
> 
> I sincerely doubt that they'll go with Shadow for the reasons we've already gone over, but that is entirely the kind of gag I would be 100% Ok with.


"Introducing Cassandra Cain's new secret identity... *John Carter!*"

----------


## Assam

> "Introducing Cassandra Cain's new secret identity... *John Carter!*"


BWAHAHAHA!

Legitimately laughed hard at this.

----------


## millernumber1

> "Introducing Cassandra Cain's new secret identity... *John Carter!*"


Of Mars? Why not Tarzan? That's more parallel with her backstory  :Smile:

----------


## adrikito

> "Introducing Cassandra Cain's new secret identity... *John Carter!*"


hahahahahahaa

----------


## Assam

> Of Mars? Why not Tarzan? That's more parallel with her backstory


I mean, there's a whole gap in Cass's life we know very, very little about, from the time she left Cain till NML/BR:E. 

Whose to say she never lived with and trained with gorillas? XD

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean, there's a whole gap in Cass's life we know very, very little about, from the time she left Cain till NML/BR:E. 
> 
> Whose to say she never lived with and trained with gorillas? XD


WANT WANT WANT!!!!! I feel that JT4 would be totally on board with this idea for a Cass mini...

----------


## Assam

> WANT WANT WANT!!!!! I feel that JT4 would be totally on board with this idea for a Cass mini...


Honestly, either as a mini or the first storyline in a solo, exploring those missing 6-8 years could make for some really good stories.

----------


## Blight

> "Introducing Cassandra Cain's new secret identity... *John Carter!*"


"She's taken different names before, but now the Doctor is in and her clinic is PAIN. This SUMMER, Cassandra Cain is.. DOC SAVAGE!!"

----------


## millernumber1

> "She's taken different names before, but now the Doctor is in and her clinic is PAIN. This SUMMER, Cassandra Cain is.. DOC SAVAGE!!"


YES! This is amazing!

----------


## millernumber1

Did this get posted yet? It poses a LOT of questions:a.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Did this get posted yet? It poses a LOT of questions:Attachment 48584


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsEIu6-lciA

----------


## Arnoldoaad

I relly love what is going on with Cass right now
I honestly feel like the character has finally found some steady ground to build up high in a world where now Barb is Batgirl again, Spoiler is going around somewhere and Batwoman is a thing.
It just feels right.




> Did this get posted yet? It poses a LOT of questions:Attachment 48584


Now thats Interesting

----------


## Assam

> I relly love what is going on with Cass right now
> I honestly feel like the character has finally found some steady ground to build up high in a world where now Barb is Batgirl again, Spoiler is going around somewhere and Batwoman is a thing.
> It just feels right.


I can safely say that this arc has easily been the best treatment Cass has gotten since 2006. *11 Years* of mistreatment, with only the occasional OK appearance. And with Tynion having already mentioned that there are character moments he's excited for with her in the next arc, she _won't_  be heading back to the background.  :Smile: 

Here's a question though: Dozens of thousands of people still read 'Tec. Somehow, I doubt the majority are trolls and people who HATE the book because of how Batman is treated. This means that Cass is probably getting a lot of new fans. 

Obviously still not something I'm expecting, but something that after this I do think could sell at least moderately well, but somewhere down the road, we COULD get another Cass solo. Should that happen, who, if you had to pick from DC's current writers and artists, would YOU put on the book?

For me, Takara in  a heartbeat on art. The way he draws Cass is PERFECT, and while I'd prefer a more stylized artist for Cass's fights, DC doesn't really have anyone like that right now to my knowledge. Genuinely not sure at the moment who I'd trust with Cass (Tynion is already on a bunch of books, with Dark Matter on the way)

----------


## millernumber1

I think Genevieve Valentine could do a really good Cass book.

----------


## Assam

> I think Genevieve Valentine could do a really good Cass book.


Still haven't read very much of her work sadly. 

But something I just remembered: DC's back on good terms with Dixon (Seemingly) 

We all know how good a writer he is in general, but more than that, he's one of like two people besides the main writers of Cass's book who knew how to write her, prior to Tynion. 

His Outsiders was stuff was decent, about on par with Cass's portrayal in Gates of Gotham,  but remember, he also wrote a few fill-in issues during the _Puckett_ run, and he was mostly able to match his quality. Plus, he gave us one of the very few stories where Tim, Cass, and Steph (Along with Connor Hawke), all worked together. 

Damn it. Now my dreams are gonna be filled with the possibilities of a Dixon/Takara Cass solo...

----------


## millernumber1

Ahahaha. A Dixon Cass book would be really strong!

----------


## Caivu

Since it apparently just released, here's the regular cover for 'Tec #956:

Screenshot_20170427-110501.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Since it apparently just released, here's the regular cover for 'Tec #956:
> 
> Screenshot_20170427-110501.jpg


Yeah, I saw that last night. 

I really wouldn't mind if Cass and Bruce beat Shiva together. For one, it'd help stop the criticism that Batman does nothing but lose in the book, despite how untrue it already is. And 2nd, it'd be a good bonding experience for the two. Let's face it, what's a more "Batfamily Bonding Exercise" than beating up a villain trying to blow up Gotham XD.

----------


## adrikito

> Since it apparently just released, here's the regular cover for 'Tec #956:
> 
> Screenshot_20170427-110501.jpg


Good Cover too.. 

Speaking of the League of Shadows... *UnclePulky* what is your opinion of change *ORPHAN* only for *SHADOW*?(not Shadow bat) Is a cool name in my opinion..

----------


## The Whovian

> Since it apparently just released, here's the regular cover for 'Tec #956:
> 
> Screenshot_20170427-110501.jpg


I hope it's not Batman and Cass against Shiva. I want a straight up fight between Cass and Shiva.

----------


## Assam

> Good Cover too.. 
> 
> Speaking of the League of Shadows... *UnclePulky* what is your opinion of change *ORPHAN* only for *SHADOW*?(not Shadow bat) Is a cool name in my opinion..


Don't like Shadow on its own. Its as generic as Orphan, and, as we've already established, the name of a pulp hero. And funny as the gag would be, its honestly not what I want.

----------


## Assam

> I hope it's not Batman and Cass against Shiva. I want a straight up fight between Cass and Shiva.


I'm good with either. 

Mainly because we've seen Cass vs Shiva fights before, and this isn't a knock against the creative team, but done MUCH better than I think we'd get here. Remember, Puckett's run is nearly perfect in my eyes. Plus, one of the themes of this story is that Cass isn't alone, so I'd kinda like Cass to do the heavy lifting in the fight, but get a little help winning from Batman and the others.

----------


## adrikito

> Don't like Shadow on its own. Its as generic as Orphan, and, as we've already established, the name of a pulp hero. And funny as the gag would be, its honestly not what I want.


I see worst names like LARK...

In my mind SHADOW is like a ninja name.. I liked like SPOILER in Steph..

But OK.. I don´t put the names, is DC.

----------


## millernumber1

> I see worst names like LARK...
> 
> In my mind SHADOW is like a ninja name.. I liked like SPOILER in Steph..
> 
> But OK.. I don´t put the names, is DC.


(I like Lark a lot, actually. And Bluebird  :Wink:  )

I like Shadow or Shadow Bat/ShadowBat. And obviously, Spoiler is great!

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Yeah, but stealing the name from a character from a character that inspired the creation of BATMAN would just be bad policy, besides timing couldn't be much worse:
STL040720-300x461.jpg
I don't think they could get away with doing it twice

----------


## Assam

Cass on fire.jpg

Man, if I'd seen this during my (thankfully short-lived) Hunger Games phase, I would probably have absolutely loved it. 

Also, a cookie for anyone who remembers what this is a reference to.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## adrikito

> Cass on fire.jpg
> 
> man, if i'd seen this during my (thankfully short-lived) hunger games phase, i would probably have absolutely loved it. 
> 
> Also, a cookie for anyone who remembers what this is a reference to.


is awesome.

----------


## adrikito

> (I like Lark a lot, actually. And Bluebird  )
> 
> I like Shadow or Shadow Bat/ShadowBat. And obviously, Spoiler is great!


Maybe my problem is not the character.... Maybe I have the same problem than *unclepulky* with Shadow name.. Generic Name..

----------


## Carabas

> Maybe my problem is not the character.... Maybe I have the same problem than *unclepulky* with Shadow name.. Generic Name..


Maybe it'll lead to the revival of the old "Shadow of the Bat" ongoing?

----------


## Assam

> Maybe it'll lead to the revival of the old "Shadow of the Bat" ongoing?


If that's what it took to get Cass a book, I'd take it.  :Cool: 

 ESPECIALLY if it was as well written as Alan Grant's run.

----------


## Katana500

Screenshot_20170420-123200.jpg

Is that Cass at the side of the photo here from a future issue? I think it is but im not sure  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> Screenshot_20170420-123200.jpg
> 
> Is that Cass at the side of the photo here from a future issue? I think it is but im not sure


It looks like it, but hard to tell for sure.

----------


## Assam

> It looks like it, but hard to tell for sure.


Nah, if you look closely, it's clearly Bruce. (Though someone whose powers work when she talks interacting with CASS would be fun  :Stick Out Tongue: ) Hopefully we DO get to see Zatanna interact with the whole 'Tec team and not just Bruce.

----------


## The Whovian

> Nah, if you look closely, it's clearly Bruce. (Though someone whose powers work when she talks interacting with CASS would be fun ) Hopefully we DO get to see Zatanna interact with the whole 'Tec team and not just Bruce.


No, not the person in the center. Of course that's Bruce. We're talking about the figure in the lower right

----------


## Assam

> No, not the person in the center. Of course that's Bruce. We're talking about the figure in the lower right


Nah, I don't think that's her. 

The only time Cass has been drawn with long hair was during EvilCass, and I don't think Tynion would want to remind anyone of that. Plus, that face doesn't look at all like the more youthful one she's had Post-Flashpoint.

----------


## Katana500

who could it be then? Someone else joins the team?

I guess she isn't wearing her uniform either - so might not be her

----------


## Assam

> who could it be then? Someone else joins the team?
> 
> I guess she isn't wearing her uniform either - so might not be her


Definitely not a new team member.

Could be Lilhy...

----------


## Katana500

> Definitely not a new team member.
> 
> Could be Lilhy...


ah thats cool! who is Lilhy  :Smile: ?

----------


## Assam

> ah thats cool! who is Lilhy ?


She was a major player in Azrael's solo book. Sometimes an ally, sometimes a villain, kinda sorta killed him.

----------


## Katana500

> She was a major player in Azrael's solo book. Sometimes an ally, sometimes a villain, kinda sorta killed him.


ah ok! Thank you very much! You know like everything!  :Smile:  

I haven't read any Azrael before! But I'm looking forward to his arc! Cause he seems cool! 

^not as cool as Cass of course!

----------


## Caivu

I thought it was just Zatanna.

----------


## Assam

> I thought it was just Zatanna.


Might be. Actually, probably is. Just the fact that the panel is out of context and "Zatanna" on the left doesn't look like the Zatanna on the right is what's leading to speculation. 

Inconsistent art obviously exists, but who knows.

----------


## Katana500

yea it could be! I guess we just need to wait till the issue comes out! I cannot wait! I wish detective came out like twice a week - I hate waiting two weeks  :Smile:  But on the brightside its not monthly - imagine!!

----------


## btmarine23

Would Cass ever use the Black Bat title/uniform?  What are people hoping for…I mean she is dropping Orphan maybe?

----------


## Carabas

> Would Cass ever use the Black Bat title/uniform?  What are people hoping for…I mean she is dropping Orphan maybe?


Hoping for?
Batgirl, obviously.

I see no difference between Black Bat and Orphan.

----------


## The Whovian

> Would Cass ever use the Black Bat title/uniform?  What are people hoping for…I mean she is dropping Orphan maybe?


Gosh, I hope so. I hate her using "Orphan" as super hero name

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Gosh, I hope so. I hate her using "Orphan" as super hero name


Seriously, it might as well be 'Place Holder', especially when her parents are still alive (don't tell me Cain is dead, it won't last)

----------


## Assam

New Years Eve.jpg

I love this so much, and not just for the Cass/Steph. 

Cass's face there is amazing, and I can totally imagine her being wowed by fireworks, and seeing the intricacies in the patterns.

----------


## Assam

Soooooooo, I thought that "Cass had her book canceled and was turned evil to make room for Kate" was just a sensible theory fans had come up with.

http://jessedelperdang.deviantart.co...g-22-178829022

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!


I'm gonna go scream into a pillow until the next issue of 'Tec comes out...

----------


## Caivu

> Soooooooo, I thought that "Cass had her book canceled and was turned evil to make room for Kate" was just a sensible theory fans had come up with.
> 
> http://jessedelperdang.deviantart.co...g-22-178829022
> 
> UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
> 
> 
> I'm gonna go scream into a pillow until the next issue of 'Tec comes out...


To be clear, the Batwoman series in question was to be written by Devin Grayson and was of course also cancelled.

Screenshot_20170430-014159.jpg

In other words, Cass's series was cancelled and ended before Kate debuted or had even been announced publicly.

----------


## Assam

> To be clear, the Batwoman series in question was to be written by Devin Grayson and was of course also cancelled.
> 
> Screenshot_20170430-014159.jpg
> 
> In other words, Cass's series was cancelled and ended before Kate debuted or had even been announced publically.


I think that just makes it all even worse.

----------


## Carabas

> To be clear, the Batwoman series in question was to be written by Devin Grayson and was of course also cancelled.
> 
> Screenshot_20170430-014159.jpg
> 
> In other words, Cass's series was cancelled and ended before Kate debuted or had even been announced publicly.


Grayson's book wasn't just canceled, but aborted before the first issue came out.
I really would love to read those supposedly wo completed issues, art and all, that were produced and never published. She was a great writer.

----------


## Caivu

> Grayson's book wasn't just canceled, but aborted before the first issue came out.
> I really would love to read those supposedly wo completed issues, art and all, that were produced and never published. She was a great writer.


Who was the artist attached to that?

----------


## Assam

> Grayson's book wasn't just canceled, but aborted before the first issue came out.
> I really would love to read those supposedly wo completed issues, art and all, that were produced and never published. She was a great writer.


Grayson definitely deserves a better rep than she gets. I have faith that Grayson would have been able to make me think of Kate early on differently than how I did originally which was "Renee's love interest". (That was pretty much ALL of how I saw her until Elegy)

----------


## Assam

I had a dream last night. One which I hadn't seen the ending to in a dream in years.

End of 'Tec #956, the day is saved, Cass, Kate, and Bruce follow up on #950 and go to a ballet and baseball game. This is then followed by Bruce telling Cass he's adopting her, AND, and this is what I've dreamed of about before, for her "new" costume, Cass gets her original suit. 

Getting all of this in the actual issue in very unlikely, though if it DID happen, I would lose my god damn mind with joy.

The adoption is something I'm hoping for because f**k anyone who says otherwise she's Bruce's daughter, and despite my initial hesitations, I think this arc has done a good job of showing this, and because if they actually PUSHED the angle of her being "Batman's daughter" in the main continuity, that's something that would definitely rise her profile. 

Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why Cass can't just wear her original Batgirl suit, and just not be called "Batgirl?" (Editorial doesn't count as a legitimate reason BTW)

----------


## Carabas

> Who was the artist attached to that?


I have no idea. I don't think this was ever revealed.

----------


## Katana500

> I had a dream last night. One which I hadn't seen the ending to in a dream in years.
> 
> End of 'Tec #956, the day is saved, Cass, Kate, and Bruce follow up on #950 and go to a ballet and baseball game. This is then followed by Bruce telling Cass he's adopting her, AND, and this is what I've dreamed of about before, for her "new" costume, Cass gets her original suit. 
> 
> Getting all of this in the actual issue in very unlikely, though if it DID happen, I would lose my god damn mind with joy.
> 
> The adoption is something I'm hoping for because f**k anyone who says otherwise she's Bruce's daughter, and despite my initial hesitations, I think this arc has done a good job of showing this, and because if they actually PUSHED the angle of her being "Batman's daughter" in the main continuity, that's something that would definitely rise her profile. 
> 
> Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why Cass can't just wear her original Batgirl suit, and just not be called "Batgirl?" (Editorial doesn't count as a legitimate reason BTW)


Lets just hope you read the next issue and conveniantly forgot! and subconsciously remembered it all!  :Smile:

----------


## Sardorim

But if she's adopted by Bruce than she can't date Tim.

----------


## btmarine23

> I had a dream last night. One which I hadn't seen the ending to in a dream in years.
> 
> End of 'Tec #956, the day is saved, Cass, Kate, and Bruce follow up on #950 and go to a ballet and baseball game. This is then followed by Bruce telling Cass he's adopting her, AND, and this is what I've dreamed of about before, for her "new" costume, Cass gets her original suit. 
> 
> Getting all of this in the actual issue in very unlikely, though if it DID happen, I would lose my god damn mind with joy.
> 
> The adoption is something I'm hoping for because f**k anyone who says otherwise she's Bruce's daughter, and despite my initial hesitations, I think this arc has done a good job of showing this, and because if they actually PUSHED the angle of her being "Batman's daughter" in the main continuity, that's something that would definitely rise her profile. 
> 
> Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why Cass can't just wear her original Batgirl suit, and just not be called "Batgirl?" (Editorial doesn't count as a legitimate reason BTW)


 Yeah well 2 Batgirls are better than one.  Either way what do I know..but I hope your dream comes through!  Because in my fantasy Batfamily Cass is Batgirl and Steph is Robin.

----------


## sakuyamons

> But if she's adopted by Bruce than she can't date Tim.


But she can date Steph  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah well 2 Batgirls are better than one.  Either way what do I know..but I hope your dream comes through!  Because in my fantasy Batfamily Cass is Batgirl and Steph is Robin.


And three Batgirls are better than two! Though i'm okay with a BatCass and StephRobin.

----------


## Assam

> But she can date Steph


You f**king know it!  :Big Grin:

----------


## adrikito

> And three Batgirls are better than two! Though i'm okay with a BatCass and StephRobin.


Yeah, like in Future ends
tumblr_nblvz5yVLq1toz42yo1_500.jpg




> But she can date Steph


GOOD OPTION.

----------


## The Whovian

> But if she's adopted by Bruce than she can't date Tim.


Why not? They're not blood related.

----------


## Dataweaver

I've always preferred Tim and Cass in a sibling-like relationship, so I don't see any problem with them "not being able to date".

----------


## Assam

> I've always preferred Tim and Cass in a sibling-like relationship, so I don't see any problem with them "not being able to date".


Yeah, even though I don't personally think there's anything wrong with adopted siblings becoming a couple, they've had enough appearances together for a clearly defined relationship to form, and, despite what some of their VERY dedicated shippers will tell you, it's definitely a brother-sister relationship.

----------


## Digifiend

Yeah, Steph is the one Tim loves romantically.


> Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why Cass can't just wear her original Batgirl suit, and just not be called "Batgirl?" (Editorial doesn't count as a legitimate reason BTW)


I know Marvel has quite a few shared codenames, but how many at DC do? I can only think of Green Lantern and Flash. Wonder Girl would be except that Donna Troy doesn't use it now, and Superboy would be as well - except that the previous one hasn't appeared since Jon took the name.

One thing. If Cass was to take on the Batgirl name, I'd hope it would be with Barbara Gordon's approval. Cass and Steph's history with the mantle should now be restored after the events of Superman Reborn and The Button.

----------


## Assam

Still have to wait another week for the finale  :Frown: 

Something kinda cool though? Fanart based on the newest issue: 
not alone.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Still have to wait another week for the finale 
> 
> Something kinda cool though? Fanart based on the newest issue: 
> not alone.jpg


Well, good image.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, even though I don't personally think there's anything wrong with adopted siblings becoming a couple, they've had enough appearances together for a clearly defined relationship to form, and, despite what some of their VERY dedicated shippers will tell you, it's definitely a brother-sister relationship.


Tim is afaik not adopted in the New 52. 




> Cass and Steph's history with the mantle should now be restored after the events of Superman Reborn and The Button.


I'm pretty sure that this won't happen, I don't think that they retcon very recent events like the eternals.

----------


## Blight

> But she can date Steph


Eh, polygamy works better for all three. Other than in the current universe Harper works as the third wheel now more than Tim.

----------


## Assam

Top 5 Things I Want in Tec' #956: 

5. The scenes we all know are coming with Bruce, Kate, and Cass at the ballet. 
4. A satisfying final battle. 
3. A new costume and codename for Cass (The latter is almost guaranteed, and as for the former, I'd actually be satisfied if they just gave her bat ears.) 
2. Just in general, more Cass greatness (In terms of character work. Action wise is covered by 4.) 
1. CASSANDRA. F**KING. WAYNE. 
0. (The Pipedream): The day the book comes out, or shortly after, DC announces a new Cass solo.

----------


## Assam

Pitch 1.jpg

NOOOOOOOOOO!.jpg

The fact that this almost happened TWICE will forever haunt me.

(If you don't know what these are, APPARENTLY DC not once, but twice considered NML adaptations, but they were both deemed "too dark."  :Mad:   )

----------


## Katana500

> Top 5 Things I Want in Tec' #956: 
> 
> 5. The scenes we all know are coming with Bruce, Kate, and Cass at the ballet. 
> 4. A satisfying final battle. 
> 3. A new costume and codename for Cass (The latter is almost guaranteed, and as for the former, I'd actually be satisfied if they just gave her bat ears.) 
> 2. Just in general, more Cass greatness (In terms of character work. Action wise is covered by 4.) 
> 1. CASSANDRA. F**KING. WAYNE. 
> 0. (The Pipedream): The day the book comes out, or shortly after, DC announces a new Cass solo.


We can hope! 


also New Mans Land looks cool

----------


## Blight

> Pitch 1.jpg
> 
> NOOOOOOOOOO!.jpg
> 
> The fact that this almost happened TWICE will forever haunt me.
> 
> (If you don't know what these are, APPARENTLY DC not once, but twice considered NML adaptations, but they were both deemed "too dark."   )


Well, it was just after Batman: Brave and the Bold. They went for the "middle" ground with Beware the Batman. Still, with their new streaming service. I'd so would want that concept returned now with the streaming service next year.

----------


## Blight

> Top 5 Things I Want in Tec' #956: 
> 
> 5. The scenes we all know are coming with Bruce, Kate, and Cass at the ballet. 
> 4. A satisfying final battle. 
> 3. A new costume and codename for Cass (The latter is almost guaranteed, and as for the former, I'd actually be satisfied if they just gave her bat ears.) 
> 2. Just in general, more Cass greatness (In terms of character work. Action wise is covered by 4.) 
> 1. CASSANDRA. F**KING. WAYNE. 
> 0. (The Pipedream): The day the book comes out, or shortly after, DC announces a new Cass solo.



#1 this is probably almost guranteed.
#2 I dunno. There's a lot of plot going on in the final battle. You have the group fighting Shiva with the Colony about to unleash those biological weapons in the sewers. 
#3 A new costume is a given more than a new codename. Tim and Stephanie had additions to their costumes that harken to their looks (Tim as Robin, Stephanie with her complete Spoiler mask). Cassandra will probably get a bat symbol or bat ears hopefully.
#4 We'll probably get two more great moments of her in this issue.
#5 I wish.
#6 SDCC is more than likely the place that would happen. Not after this arc. Just like Kate when they waited till NYCC or a few months after the first Tec arc to announce her ongoing.

----------


## millernumber1

> #6 SDCC is more than likely the place that would happen. Not after this arc. Just like Kate when they waited till NYCC or a few months after the first Tec arc to announce her ongoing.


DC hasn't really announced anything major as SDCC that I can remember recently? It's all been NYCC, I think.

----------


## Blight

> DC hasn't really announced anything major as SDCC that I can remember recently? It's all been NYCC, I think.


Two years ago they announced Cass's return to the Bat Books at SDCC. Last year? I have no idea. But, the third wave of Rebirth comics probably will be announced? Unless their pushing such announcements to NYCC (when Batwoman was announced).

----------


## Assam

So I found an interesting theory regarding Cass's original solo book. 

We all remember how Steph's ghost showed up a few times, and how it HAD to be something actually supernatural, because "Steph" showed her things that Cass couldn't have possibly known about. 

And as we also all know, Steph wasn't actually dead. 

The theory as it goes was that "Steph" was actually Death from Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Since Cass didn't have any of the usual ideas of what death "looks" like in her head, Death chose to take the form of Cass's best friend to make it all easier for her to understand. 

I think it's a pretty interesting idea.

----------


## Carabas

> So I found an interesting theory regarding Cass's original solo book. 
> 
> We all remember how Steph's ghost showed up a few times, and how it HAD to be something actually supernatural, because "Steph" showed her things that Cass couldn't have possibly known about. 
> 
> And as we also all know, Steph wasn't actually dead. 
> 
> The theory as it goes was that "Steph" was actually Death from Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Since Cass didn't have any of the usual ideas of what death "looks" like in her head, Death chose to take the form of Cass's best friend to make it all easier for her to understand. 
> 
> I think it's a pretty interesting idea.


Or it actuallty was Steph, who was dead for real until she was later retconned to be fake-dead, and as a result the story just makes no damn sense whatsoever anymore.

See also various people encountering Bucky in the afterlife over at Marvel.

----------


## Assam

> Or it actuallty was Steph, who was dead for real until she was later retconned to be fake-dead, and as a result the story just makes no damn sense whatsoever anymore.


I don't think there's anything wrong with fans coming up with theories to cover up plot holes.

----------


## Carabas

> I don't think there's anything wrong with fans coming up with theories to cover up plot holes.


I don't either.

But that's all they are: non-canon theories.

----------


## Assam

> I don't either.
> 
> But that's all they are: non-canon theories.


Never claimed it was canon. Just a fun idea.

----------


## Assam

> See also various people encountering Bucky in the afterlife over at Marvel.


See also Oliver Queen talking with Barry Allen in Heaven when he was "actually" in the Speed Force. 

This stuff almost never makes sense in the long run.

----------


## Digifiend

> Tim is afaik not adopted in the New 52. 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that this won't happen, I don't think that they retcon very recent events like the eternals.


The five year timeline got stretched back out to 15. Nightwing at one time being Batman has already been mentioned in his solo... wasn't that just PRIOR to New 52, and as such should've been wiped out along with the extra Batgirls? Explanation: it was but has been undone.

----------


## Fergus

> The five year timeline got stretched back out to 15. Nightwing at one time being Batman has already been mentioned in his solo... wasn't that just PRIOR to New 52, and as such should've been wiped out along with the extra Batgirls? Explanation: it was but has been undone.


Dick as Batman was never out of continuity just like Bruce going missing was never altered. Those thing like most of Morrison's run simply carried over

----------


## millernumber1

> The five year timeline got stretched back out to 15. Nightwing at one time being Batman has already been mentioned in his solo... wasn't that just PRIOR to New 52, and as such should've been wiped out along with the extra Batgirls? Explanation: it was but has been undone.


No, it wasn't. Nightwing said in his first issue of the new solo by Kyle Higgins and Eddy Barrows that he had just finished being Batman. And Batman Incorporated made it clear that other than deleting the Batgirls and erasing Selina's memory (hey...I'm sensing a sexist pattern here...), nothing much has changed about the Morrison run.

----------


## Assam

Reason 1,986,765,450 Cass is awesome: She's the only person who can get Batman to say, "Don't shrug at me, young lady." 

Don't shrug at me.jpg

Reason 3,997,234,565 and Reason 3,997,234,566 Cass is awesome: She steals Tim's rice krispies and she knows the value of a good shower. 

rice krispies.jpg

People who say Cass is "bland" or "not fun" really need to read more comics.

----------


## Assam

So plotting and various other issues aside, can we at least all agree that Tynion did a REALLY good job with Cass's character in the now completed League of Shadows arc?

----------


## Caivu

> So plotting and various other issues aside, can we at least all agree that Tynion did a REALLY good job with Cass's character in the now completed League of Shadows arc?


Yep. That was the most important thing, and it worked. It just needs to stick by having her bond with everyone more from here on out.

----------


## Assam

> Yep. That was the most important thing, and it worked. It just needs to stick by having her bond with everyone more from here on out.


Agreed. 

For all the other problems, Cass getting a well-done character piece trumped all. 

The relationships with Bruce, Kate, and Basil have been set-up well, and just need to be fleshed out more. Her friendship with JPV I'm hoping will return, but it doesn't look like it's going to right now, what with him mostly being paired off with Luke. And when they eventually return, hopefully her bonds with her original best friends, Tim and Steph, will come back too. (We'll just block NuTim's line about circus peanuts from our brains.) 

And we can only pray to the Presence that when Cass "meets" Babs, it won't be absolutely insulting.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Agreed. 
> 
> For all the other problems, Cass getting a well-done character piece trumped all. 
> 
> The relationships with Bruce, Kate, and Basil have been set-up well, and just need to be fleshed out more. Her friendship with JPV I'm hoping will return, but it doesn't look like it's going to right now, what with him mostly being paired off with Luke. And when they eventually return, hopefully her bonds with her original best friends, Tim and Steph, will come back too. (We'll just block NuTim's line about circus peanuts from our brains.) 
> 
> And we can only pray to the Presence that when Cass "meets" Babs, it won't be absolutely insulting.


I'm behind in TeC, but won't Spoiler do a comeback at least for an arc? They could attempt to focus on the Steph/Cass relationship from there.

----------


## Assam

> I'm behind in TeC, but won't Spoiler do a comeback at least for an arc? They could attempt to focus on the Steph/Cass relationship from there.


The next issue is a solo Steph adventure, and the next arc is about Azrael, Batwing, and Zatanna. We have no idea what's coming after that.

----------


## millernumber1

> So plotting and various other issues aside, can we at least all agree that Tynion did a REALLY good job with Cass's character in the now completed League of Shadows arc?


Well, I think so. But I also don't have as much of a problem with the plotting.  :Smile: 

But in all seriousness, the Cass arc was really moving. I think Tynion's doing some really outstanding character work.




> Agreed. 
> 
> For all the other problems, Cass getting a well-done character piece trumped all. 
> 
> The relationships with Bruce, Kate, and Basil have been set-up well, and just need to be fleshed out more. Her friendship with JPV I'm hoping will return, but it doesn't look like it's going to right now, what with him mostly being paired off with Luke. And when they eventually return, hopefully her bonds with her original best friends, Tim and Steph, will come back too. (We'll just block NuTim's line about circus peanuts from our brains.) 
> 
> And we can only pray to the Presence that when Cass "meets" Babs, it won't be absolutely insulting.


I hope for all of these things.




> The next issue is a solo Steph adventure, and the next arc is about Azrael, Batwing, and Zatanna. We have no idea what's coming after that.


Well, we know now that we have more Ra's and Shiva coming.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/marcio_takara/st...34890228506624

Nice to see Takara using a Cass sketch as part of his advertising.

----------


## Assam

cass redrawn.jpg

As someone who really hated the majority of the art in the Horrocks run, I prefer this artist's take on the scene by a huge margin.

----------


## Blight

> https://twitter.com/marcio_takara/st...34890228506624
> 
> Nice to see Takara using a Cass sketch as part of his advertising.


He loves the character just as much as us.

----------


## Assam

As we all know, Wonder Woman's solo big screen debut is just a few weeks away. And you know, we should be happy for her. After all, DC's greatest hero _did_ once allow Wonder Woman, as well as Power Girl, to help her on a case. 

wonder cass.jpg

Honestly, looking at this page still gives me two thoughts: 

1. Amanda Connor should never be allowed to write or draw Cass. 

and 2. What was the story behind this? And when did Cass even meet these two? XD

----------


## Frontier

I disagree on never being allowed to draw Cass. Amanda Conner should get to draw everybody  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Zainu

I think the worst artist was whoever handled EvilCassie(both Teen Titans, Beechen..etc). I cringe whenever I see those panels(ESPECIALLY IN ARTICLES, INTRO VIDS AND BLOGS--because introducing Cassie likes that shows that you don't know sh!t). I can handle anyone else(plus, Damion Scott kinda bends your standards).

Also, I love collecting different artist's take on Batgirl Cass :Embarrassment:

----------


## Zainu

> But if she's adopted by Bruce than she can't date Tim.


Despite what others are saying, I like TimCas too

----------


## adrikito

one cosplay:

Attachment 49762

----------


## Assam

> one cosplay:
> 
> Attachment 49762


Very nice.

----------


## millernumber1

> one cosplay:
> 
> Attachment 49762


I am a fan.

----------


## Caivu

By Alvaro Martinez:

Screenshot_20170524-123458.jpg

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Martinez draws great looking Cass. He would have been my preferred artist for the League of Shadows arc.

----------


## millernumber1

> By Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Screenshot_20170524-123458.jpg


Ugh. So gorgeous. Why is he so good?  :Smile:

----------


## The Whovian

> By Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Screenshot_20170524-123458.jpg


That is super cool!

----------


## Assam

You know I just had a thought. Once Cass gets her new codename, whether next issue or down the line, I don't see Orphan sticking around forever, you could actually make an entire Justice League sized team out of Cass's different identities. 

Batgirl
Kasumi
Cassandra Cain (When she had the really cool outfit with the scarf in-between being Batgirl and Black Bat) 
Black Bat 
Orphan 
New Identity 
Batwoman (From Titans Tomorrow (I think. Might have been the other future story.) Even though she should have been Batman) 

Hell, you could even throw Batgirl from Future's End on this team! 

Back in the day, Casstoons JOKED about this kind of thing with the infinite amount of Cass daughters. It's crazy.

----------


## The Whovian

> You know I just had a thought. Once Cass gets her new codename, whether next issue or down the line, I don't see Orphan sticking around forever


I hope not. I hate that superhero name she has right now. I'd love to see her with the Batgirl title, but we know that won't happen. So maybe Black Bat or something else entirely new but cool, unlike "Orphan".

----------


## Assam

So now that we've had another issue after it, I was thinking and...anyone else have a sour taste in their mouth from _League of Shadows?_ Despite the arc's several problems, I thought most of it was pretty good, #955 was spectacular, and #956 was...ugh. The strength of Cass's development in the arc allows me to over looks the numerous problems with the arc, both big and small, but man was that ending not satisfying in the slightest. Even less so now than when it first came out.  

Yes, this is an ongoing story, but it was still the end of this part of Cass's story. _Any_ actually resolution with her would have been better than what we got. Just showing Cass, Kate, and Bruce at the ballet would have been the easiest f**king thing! Nice as it all would have been, the reveal of a new codename, an adoption, or anything big like that wasn't _necessary_  here, just...something! 

Instead, more "dramatic" build-up for more arcs that likely won't have satisfying conclusions either. 

And with Cass returning to being the least focused-on character in the next arc, if the solicits are anything to go by, I'm just...bleh.

----------


## millernumber1

Huh. I thought Cass's resolution was great. She's never actually going to have a real relationship with Shiva, so I didn't mind that it was setup for more conflict between them and Ra's later. Maybe I'm just a bad Cass fan, but I really don't feel that the lack of showing the ballet scene was necessary (because we've gotten two very significant scenes with Cass at the ballet in Batman and Robin Eternal #7 and Tec #950). I was happy it happened, but for me, the whole thing hinges on Cass saying, "I am more." That, for me, was what I wanted, and I'm satisfied with it for now.

----------


## adrikito

> By Alvaro Martinez:
> 
> Screenshot_20170524-123458.jpg


Is a good work.

----------


## Assam

> Huh. I thought Cass's resolution was great. She's never actually going to have a real relationship with Shiva, so I didn't mind that it was setup for more conflict between them and Ra's later. Maybe I'm just a bad Cass fan, but I really don't feel that the lack of showing the ballet scene was necessary (because we've gotten two very significant scenes with Cass at the ballet in Batman and Robin Eternal #7 and Tec #950). I was happy it happened, but for me, the whole thing hinges on Cass saying, "I am more." That, for me, was what I wanted, and I'm satisfied with it for now.


Fair enough. The reason I wanted them to show the ballet scene wasn't because of the ballet itself (Which like you said, we've seen before), but just to show Cass spending time out of costume with her new family. Hopefully we'll get that in the future, along with the other things I mentioned, but it really felt like a wasted opportunity. The "I am more" moment, combined with the Shiva duel made for a good climax, but character and story arcs don't stop at the climax. We had the falling action with Shiva's death and her whispering to Cass as she did so, but then, she was left out of the denouement of her own story. There are still a LOT of individual things about the arc I really like (#955 was the best overall issue with #950 as a DISTANT 2nd, distant because of that one line about Harper being the person Cass cares for most  :Mad: ), but the arc as a whole isn't sitting well with me atm.

----------


## millernumber1

Interesting. I wonder if it's the same problem I think is causing problems with the Steph issue this week - that we're in the middle or beginning of these character's arcs, not at the end, and maybe we were expecting more of an ending? For me, knowing that JT4 wants to go till 1000, I'm just sitting back and thinking of this sort of like how Dixon would go on for years and years and years on Tec - it's a long run, with characters and plots weaving in and out, trying to find the high points of issues and arcs, rather than finishing up the story and wrapping it all up. Dunno - just thoughts I've been having after some pretty brutal comments threads over the past two weeks.

----------


## Caivu

> _Any_ actually resolution with her would have been better than what we got. Just showing Cass, Kate, and Bruce at the ballet would have been the easiest f**king thing! Nice as it all would have been, the reveal of a new codename, an adoption, or anything big like that wasn't _necessary_  here, just...something!


This. There is _no reason_ why the last scene in #956 couldn't have been actually at the ballet (it could've even been the entire team). Especially since a big chunk of Cass's story in #950 was how she felt so distant from everyone. It was a baffling decision to have it play out as it did.

----------


## millernumber1

> This. There is _no reason_ why the last scene in #956 couldn't have been actually at the ballet (it could've even been the entire team). Especially since a big chunk of Cass's story in #950 was how she felt so distant from everyone. It was a baffling decision to have it play out as it did.


I'm not that baffled, actually. I think Tynion's big plan is for the gang to hold together, more or less, but he really sees Tim as the glue, so I see minor conflicts and tensions building up over the next year or so, until Tim comes back and makes things somewhat better. Showing something as happy as Bruce and Kate and Cass and the team at the ballet I think would undercut that plan.

----------


## Assam

> Interesting. I wonder if it's the same problem I think is causing problems with the Steph issue this week - that we're in the middle or beginning of these character's arcs, not at the end, and maybe we were expecting more of an ending? For me, knowing that JT4 wants to go till 1000, I'm just sitting back and thinking of this sort of like how Dixon would go on for years and years and years on Tec - it's a long run, with characters and plots weaving in and out, trying to find the high points of issues and arcs, rather than finishing up the story and wrapping it all up. Dunno - just thoughts I've been having after some pretty brutal comments threads over the past two weeks.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not suddenly one of the book's detractors. Tynion still has a lot issues as a writer, (Plotting being a major one, much like his mentor) but, aside from some shaky moments (Especially with Tim) in the first arc, he's very, *very* good at the things that matter most for this book: the characters and their relationships. So long as he keeps that up, and, as you suggest, find a way to tie his whole run together in the end, I've got no problem with him staying on till 1,000.

----------


## Assam

> I'm not that baffled, actually. I think Tynion's big plan is for the gang to hold together, more or less, but he really sees Tim as the glue, so I see minor conflicts and tensions building up over the next year or so, until Tim comes back and makes things somewhat better. Showing something as happy as Bruce and Kate and Cass and the team at the ballet I think would undercut that plan.


Even if that is his plan, his mindset is, well, wrong. Much as I like him, the idea that the BatFamily needs Tim as their glue is one with zero basis. It's fanboyism (something Tynion has admitted as a reason why he shouldn't write a Tim solo), and it's this idea doing the undercutting to his own stories. "Show don't tell" is one of the most basic rules of storytelling, and while Cass saying "Not alone" was a powerful moment, actually showing that she's not alone by showing her have a good time with the entire 'Tec team would have worked much better thematically. And thinking about it, yeah, it should have been everyone. Basil's the one it has been repeatedly shown she's closest with on the current team, and even JPV and Luke who she hasn't had much interaction with in this continuity, she still displayed a desire _to_ get to get closer with in #950.

----------


## Assam

cass drolling.jpg

Absolutely Gorgeous new art! Drawn by Stanley Lau.

----------


## The Whovian

> cass drolling.jpg
> 
> Absolutely Gorgeous new art! Drawn by Stanley Lau.


That is awesome!!

----------


## adrikito

> cass drolling.jpg
> 
> absolutely gorgeous new art! Drawn by stanley lau.


good image.  Is like one angel..

----------


## Frontier

> cass drolling.jpg
> 
> Absolutely Gorgeous new art! Drawn by Stanley Lau.


This is beautiful  :Embarrassment: .

Also? She's got a cape  :Wink: .

----------


## Assam

Hey so, remember those 4chan "leaks" we all rightfully dismissed as BS awhile ago? Far as I'm concerned, there was a LOT of good stuff, and just a few  bad  things,  making me wish it was real . Well, I ran across them again, and something occurred to me: 

"9)      Due to poor sales both Batgirl and Batgirl & the Birds of Prey will be canceled, Barbara will make heroic sacrifice putting her back into a wheelchair. The books will be relaunched as Birds of Prey, where Oracle, Huntress and Black Canary are joined by Lady Blackhawk and Batgirls by Genevieve Valentine, where Barbara trains Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown as her successors."

"10)   Which of course means Cass is leaving Detective Comics. So is Clayface and the post-Dark Days roster will keep Batman, Batwoman, Batwing, and Azrael and add Duke Thomas, Harper Row and Anarky." 

Now, I still think this is fake, but...Zinda IS in _Metal_. Anarky IS getting an arc in 'Tec,  while  they're still making money, Batgirl and BoP both have fairly low sales still, and the BatWriters have made it clear there ARE big plans for Duke and Harper! Plus, going back to the rest of the leaks, some other things seem to be lining up. 

I'd hate to lose Basil as a regular character, and there's some other disappointing things in the other leaks but....I dunno. Cass back as Batgirl...

Again, I still don't think there's any real chance of the "leaks" turning out to be true, but it'd be crazy if at least some of it turned out to be true. 

Oh, and if in the next issue of 'Tec Cass, having discarded Orphan, is in the _process_ of figuring out a new code name, I may actually allow myself an ounce of hope.

----------


## Frontier

I don't know how I'd feel about them possibly trying to promote Steph and Cass as Batgirl again, to be honest.

----------


## millernumber1

Snyder pretty explicitly contradicted those rumors, I thought.

----------


## Assam

> I don't know how I'd feel about them possibly trying to promote Steph and Cass as Batgirl again, to be honest.


If I may ask, why? 




> Snyder pretty explicitly contradicted those rumors, I thought.


Did he? Oh well. It was just a though. Like I said, I never actually thought it was real.

----------


## millernumber1

> Did he? Oh well. It was just a though. Like I said, I never actually thought it was real.


I think it would be nice to have Steph and Cass in the Birds of Prey, but I don't know that I have any writer who I'd really trust with those two outside of Tynion. Kyle Higgins, but he no longer seems to have much of an "in" or an interest, outside of this elseworlds thing he's doing. Or, if DC had any brains, get BQM doing a buddy friendship run with the two of them together.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I think it would be nice to have Steph and Cass in the Birds of Prey, but I don't know that I have any writer who I'd really trust with those two outside of Tynion. Kyle Higgins, but he no longer seems to have much of an "in" or an interest, outside of this elseworlds thing he's doing. Or, if DC had any brains, get BQM doing a buddy friendship run with the two of them together.


BQM would be awesome. It is CRIMINAL that we never got a Black Bat/Batgirl team up in Steph's book before the New52 (From what I've read, BQM wanted to do it.) 

What about Marguerite Bennett?  You've spoken highly of her before, and from posts I've seen of her's, she's a pretty big fan of the two.

----------


## millernumber1

> BQM would be awesome. It is CRIMINAL that we never got a Black Bat/Batgirl team up in Steph's book before the New52 (From what I've read, BQM wanted to do it.) 
> 
> What about Marguerite Bennett?  You've spoken highly of her before, and from posts I've seen of her's, she's a pretty big fan of the two.


Um. Caivu and the Batwoman fans tend to like her, but I really dislike her writing. I'm still incredibly bitter that Bombshells has almost every female character but Cass and Steph, so I don't really trust her to get them at all.

----------


## Caivu

> Um. Caivu and the Batwoman fans tend to like her, but I really dislike her writing. I'm still incredibly bitter that Bombshells has almost every female character but Cass and Steph, so I don't really trust her to get them at all.


I do like her, but I also wouldn't want her writing this, mainly because she's already writing so much stuff.

Animosity
Batwoman
New Bombshells (which will probably be weekly)
InSexts
Sheena, Queen of the Jungle

And there's speculation she'll be writing or co-writing the new Runaways. And these are just the ones I know about. 

It's not that I don't think she's capable of it, but four (possibly five) monthly titles and a weekly series is already a healthy workload, and that's _before_ adding this hypothetical book.

----------


## Assam

> Um. Caivu and the Batwoman fans tend to like her, but I really dislike her writing. I'm still incredibly bitter that Bombshells has almost every female character but Cass and Steph, so I don't really trust her to get them at all.


My mistake.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

And yeah, the fact that basically every major DC heroine but Cass and Steph are in bombshells is part of why I've avoided the book, and by extension, why I've never read any of her solo writing.

----------


## millernumber1

> My mistake. 
> 
> And yeah, the fact that basically every major DC heroine but Cass and Steph are in bombshells is part of why I've avoided the book, and by extension, why I've never read any of her solo writing.


 :Smile: 

Pretty much. I was assigned recaps of Bombshells for about six months, until I just couldn't do it anymore.

----------


## Frontier

> If I may ask, why?


I'm not sure how well I can articulate myself on this but I think after re-establishing Cass and Steph in their own identities (even if Orphan is still a Bleh name) that DC should find a way to promote these characters in those identities or as themselves given Barbara in some form or another is always going to be the dominant Batgirl. 

And I don't think making them Batgirl again after all these years would really solve anything or re-capture their heyday in that identity. 

That doesn't mean their Batgirl history and that legacy shouldn't still be important parts of their character or acknowledged, however. 




> I think it would be nice to have Steph and Cass in the Birds of Prey, but I don't know that I have any writer who I'd really trust with those two outside of Tynion. Kyle Higgins, but he no longer seems to have much of an "in" or an interest, outside of this elseworlds thing he's doing. Or, if DC had any brains, get BQM doing a buddy friendship run with the two of them together.


I actually would really like to see more writers other then Tynion writing them. 




> I do like her, but I also wouldn't want her writing this, mainly because she's already writing so much stuff.
> 
> Animosity
> Batwoman
> New Bombshells (which will probably be weekly)
> InSexts
> Sheena, Queen of the Jungle
> 
> And there's speculation she'll be writing or co-writing the new Runaways. And these are just the ones I know about. 
> ...


Isn't she also still writing _Josie and the Pussycats_ for Archie?

----------


## Assam

@millernumber1 

Just realized where my confusion came from! I got Marguerite Bennett's posts about Cass and Steph mixed up with the writer you've _actually_ spoken highly of: Genevieve Valentine. (And if I'm remembering wrong on this one, I dunno what's wrong with my brain.)

----------


## Caivu

> Isn't she also still writing _Josie and the Pussycats_ for Archie?


I know she did, but I thought it had been canceled, or at least would be ending relatively soon enough to not impact a hypothetical Cass/Steph title. Great if it's still going, but that just adds to my point.

----------


## millernumber1

> @millernumber1 
> 
> Just realized where my confusion came from! I got Marguerite Bennett's posts about Cass and Steph mixed up with the writer you've _actually_ spoken highly of: Genevieve Valentine. (And if I'm remembering wrong on this one, I dunno what's wrong with my brain.)


Yup! I do think Valentine is a really strong writer.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

I shouldn't find this as funnyt as I do, but I was looking at an old comicvine thread (I have my reasons) from around the time Cass became Black Bat, and people were tossing out suggestions for better names (Much like we've been doing for "Orphan" recently) And one of the names someone suggested? *LARK*

----------


## Sardorim

I personally liked her look as Black Bat and the name is definitely way better than Orphan.

----------


## The Whovian

> I personally liked her look as Black Bat and the name is definitely way better than Orphan.


Completely agree!

----------


## millernumber1

> I personally liked her look as Black Bat and the name is definitely way better than Orphan.


Yup. It feels like a Nightwing type promotion, rather than a demotion from Batgirl. I'm not a huge fan of the bandaged arms, but the rest of the look is really excellent.

----------


## Assam

> Yup. It feels like a Nightwing type promotion, rather than a demotion from Batgirl. I'm not a huge fan of the bandaged arms, but the rest of the look is really excellent.


Only problem with "Black Bat" IMO was that because of trademark issues, she'd never be able to have a solo with that name without chancing a law suit. And yeah, it definitely was a promotion, unlike Orphan. It's why, even though I'd still REALLY been enjoying the book up until that point, I only fully accepted Steph as Batgirl once Cass had taken up a new mantle. (Shame there was so little time left for the DCU after that) 

As for the costume, I actually like the bandaged arms. However, as a whole, it they'd just made it more "Bat-like", I would have preferred something more like what she wore here. 

cass scarf.jpg

----------


## Caivu

Tumblr user @maridoodles created some drawings about the key info on all the main bat-ladies. Here's Cass's:

89ed78c0-3794-46db-81c0-0ea516da645d.jpg

----------


## Assam

Me whenever someone says there's nothing more to Cass besides being a good fighter, or that her fighting ability is the reason they like her: 

Cass say what.jpg

And as an aside to this, Tynion NAILED most of Cass's key traits in the last arc, but I really hope now that she's closer with the team and feels more comfortable, he'll bring back her unique sense of humor. Also her other interests besides ballet. :Embarrassment:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Me whenever someone says there's nothing more to Cass besides being a good fighter, or that her fighting ability is the reason they like her: 
> 
> IMAGE
> 
> And as an aside to this, Tynion NAILED most of Cass's key traits in the last arc, but I really hope now that she's closer with the team and feels more comfortable, he'll bring back her unique sense of humor. Also her other interests besides ballet.


Hah! I've always wanted to use that exact image or this:


Personally I found Cass's involvement in the last arc lacking, she was mostly there just to punch things. There wasn't enough "meat" there in the form of character interactions and such.

----------


## Assam

> Personally I found Cass's involvement in the last arc lacking, she was mostly there just to punch things. There wasn't enough "meat" there in the form of character interactions and such.


That's a fair take. I didn't see her as mostly there to punch things (That was her role in the first two arcs frustratingly), as she really only had successful fights in the last two issues. Her entire story in #950 (minus a certain line about Harper) showed a great understanding of the character IMO, and her arc was well executed, her interactions with Christine in#955 being a far greater highlight than the fight in the same issue, ditto for her interactions with Shiva in the following issue.  As I said, putting most key traits on display. _Most._ Some things _are_ still missing. But for the first time in over a decade, this really felt like the same girl who could both enjoy a game of roof tag, and who was more than willing to take a bullet for a thug she was fighting. He even got the detail about Cass being a total slob right, so he clearly DOES know about her more quirky traits. 

I do agree with you about character interaction though as far as the main cast is concerned. Because of how the arc was structured (Plotting was DEFINITELY this arc's weak point), JPV and Luke were taken out from the start, Kate despite being involved longer I don't think spoke one word to Cass, and her interaction with Bruce did more for his characterization than hers (Though their "fight" in #953 was still a really good scene), and while the Cass and Basil friendship is great, we really didn't get any new insights into them from their scene in this. (Although the fact that they outright stated Cass is the only one who _likes_ him, and doesn't just see him as an ally does say something about her in my eyes.) 

We'll find out in time, but as I said, I think we've gotten to a point where she'll be able to interact more freely with the rest of the team now, and I hope we get things like her dry wit, her intelligence, and general playful nature. 

That all said, what I don't want to see for a LONG time is another emotional moment with a Cass hug. They've mostly been nice moments but my god have there been a lot. Someone on Tumblr compiled all the Cass hug panels together, and the total number is ridiculous.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> That all said, what I don't want to see for a LONG time is another emotional moment with a Cass hug. They've mostly been nice moments but my god have there been a lot. Someone on Tumblr compiled all the Cass hug panels together, and the total number is ridiculous.


Yeah that I must agree. Seems like Tynion has trouble coming up with good emotional moments with Cass.

----------


## Caivu

Well, over on the DC forum, Cass and Clayface made it to the current popularity tournament final, which is amusing since they've recently become friends.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> As for the costume, I actually like the bandaged arms. However, as a whole, it they'd just made it more "Bat-like", I would have preferred something more like what she wore here.


Late to the party, but agree with both of your comments.   :Smile:   I actually like it a little non-bat-like.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...06176400859139

DON'T TEASE ME LIKE THIS JAMES! 

Yes I know this would be almost impossible to do with Babs in her current state, but I don't care. Just let them KNOW each other!

----------


## Rogue Star

> Attachment 49941
> 
> Absolutely Gorgeous new art! Drawn by Stanley Lau.


I think I saw this in a dream once.... or thrice!!!  ( * o*)

So gorgeous!

----------


## The Whovian

> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...06176400859139
> 
> DON'T TEASE ME LIKE THIS JAMES! 
> 
> Yes I know this would be almost impossible to do with Babs in her current state, but I don't care. Just let them KNOW each other!


That would be cool, if Babs was still Oracle. But I fear that Cass would be treated like wall flower in any pairing with Babs as Batgirl.

----------


## millernumber1

> That would be cool, if Babs was still Oracle. But I fear that Cass would be treated like wall flower in any pairing with Babs as Batgirl.


I think this is a very important point. But I think, if written by the right author (I think Larson could do a decent job, though I'm not impressed with how she wrote Batgirl with Supergirl in the annual), it could still be really good. I quite like Babs's relationship with Steph during the n52 Burnside run - a good mix of mentor and fun. But Steph's relationship with Babs is a bit less fraught than with Cass, I think.

----------


## Assam

> I think this is a very important point. But I think, if written by the right author (I think Larson could do a decent job, though I'm not impressed with how she wrote Batgirl with Supergirl in the annual), it could still be really good. I quite like Babs's relationship with Steph during the n52 Burnside run - a good mix of mentor and fun. But Steph's relationship with Babs is a bit less fraught than with Cass, I think.


The big difference is that back in the good continuity, as her mentor, Babs was like a big sister to Steph. Even with the de-aging of Babs and the changing of her personality, that was something that could still be captured, albeit with some changes, and according to you, it was done so pretty well. 

With Cass though, yeah, there's no getting around it. Babs and Cass had a mother-daughter relationship, and giving them anything else would ring false. Even _if_ Babs had her old personality, which I doubt will happen any time soon, the age difference between them now couldn't be more than 9 or 10 years. This is one of the things I want most back, but unless Babs is made back into the great character she once was, I don't see how it could be pulled of successfully.

----------


## millernumber1

> The big difference is that back in the good continuity, as her mentor, Babs was like a big sister to Steph. Even with the de-aging of Babs and the changing of her personality, that was something that could still be captured, albeit with some changes, and according to you, it was done so pretty well. 
> 
> With Cass though, yeah, there's no getting around it. Babs and Cass had a mother-daughter relationship, and giving them anything else would ring false. Even _if_ Babs had her old personality, which I doubt will happen any time soon, the age difference between them now couldn't be more than 9 or 10 years. This is one of the things I want most back, but unless Babs is made back into the great character she once was, I don't see how it could be pulled of successfully.


Yes, exactly. Less fraught.  :Smile: 

Babs is currently 21, and Cass is about 16. So that's 5 years. Which is really, really close, and Babs has so far really not shown a mature mother type relationship or tendency even in Birds of Prey, which is the closest we've gotten to "real" Babs (Oracle) that we've gotten in YEARS.

I really, really wish and hope that the Bensons would get Cass and/or Steph as a guest star for Birds of Prey. That would at least be a foot in the door.

----------


## Assam

Oh yeah, something else Tynion mentioned during his Q&A on Twitter last night: He still thinks 'Orphan' is a good name, despite the fact that no one really cares for it. 

Someone asked why she wasn't using Black Bat, and he said that he felt 'Orphan' spoke more to her character, as has been said in the past.  The way it was explained in 'Tec #950, the name _does_ make sense. Or rather, it did. Thematically, even if the name sounded good, which I think most of us agree it doesn't, it no longer makes sense for her to call herself that. 

I've been expecting a new name, or more realistically her just pulling a Kitty Pryde and having her real name be what she mainly goes by as of the next issue, but Tynion added something I'm not sure he's said before. 

Namely that he feels that calling her Orphan is a way to carve out a legacy for Cass all her own, implying that yes, she will be keeping the name. Oye.

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh yeah, something else Tynion mentioned during his Q&A on Twitter last night: He still thinks 'Orphan' is a good name, despite the fact that no one really cares for it. 
> 
> Someone asked why she wasn't using Black Bat, and he said that he felt 'Orphan' spoke more to her character, as has been said in the past.  The way it was explained in 'Tec #950, the name _does_ make sense. Or rather, it did. Thematically, even if the name sounded good, which I think most of us agree it doesn't, it no longer makes sense for her to call herself that. 
> 
> I've been expecting a new name, or more realistically her just pulling a Kitty Pryde and having her real name be what she mainly goes by as of the next issue, but Tynion added something I'm not sure he's said before. 
> 
> Namely that he feels that calling her Orphan is a way to carve out a legacy for Cass all her own, implying that yes, she will be keeping the name. Oye.


It's an interesting thing. I personally think that the idea of a Bat character carving out a legacy outside of Batman's shadow is a bit silly, since the most successful characters from the Batfamily are always recognizable as Batman characters (Nightwing, Batgirl, and Robin). So I personally think you should just embrace the fact that your character has a connection to the best selling character of all DC, and work to make your stories emphasize how awesome they are, and be great stories in and of themselves.

Of course, there's also the problem that even if you have an awesome story, such as Cass fighting Shiva, or Steph's Batgirl run, because of the vagaries of editorial or continuity, unless they fundamentally shape the universe (The Killing Joke, War Games, various Crises, Knightfall, RIP), they're still not guaranteed a spot in fan memory.

I really like Tynion and his writing, but I think that approach to giving his family character their own solos is fundamentally flawed - I firmly think Cass and Steph have more of a chance to get solos if they are more connected to Batman and his mission, not less.

----------


## Assam

The Bat-Proposal is making me now realize that I should have asked Tynion if he wants a Cass adoption...probably wouldn't have answered that one anyway. 

Regardless, Fanart: The Cute and the Cool 

Chocolate and Waffles.jpg

cass jason 2.jpg  (Are these two _ever_ gonna have meaningful interaction? XD) 

cass watercolor.jpg

----------


## Assam

takara cass.jpg

More Takara Cass! (Seriously, just put the man on a damn solo!) 

Also, I've recently realized that Takara is the only person who has drawn both my favorite DC hero and my favorite Marvel hero in professionally published comics.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

Maybe it's just because it's Takara, but that looks a heck of a lot better then her Orphan look in my opinion  :Wink: .

----------


## Assam

> Maybe it's just because it's Takara, but that looks a heck of a lot better then her Orphan look in my opinion .


Agreed, though her having knives on her leg doesn't make much sense.

----------


## Assam

Say what you will about Tumblr, a lot of cute stuff gets posted there. 

cass plush.jpg

cass bat plush.jpg

The choices for their plushes are kind of perfect.

----------


## millernumber1

I think the plush one is done by the same artist who did the lovely Batgirls Club piece  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/xtop/status/867219758495612928

Only seeing this tweet now, but what do you know? _Another_  professional writer who really wants to use Cass at some point.  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> https://twitter.com/xtop/status/867219758495612928
> 
> Only seeing this tweet now, but what do you know? _Another_  professional writer who really wants to use Cass at some point.


Did you see that the Bensons replied to Tynion's tweet about Cass and Babs? https://twitter.com/TheJulieBenson/s...06439305519104  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/xtop/status/867219758495612928
> 
> Only seeing this tweet now, but what do you know? _Another_  professional writer who really wants to use Cass at some point.


I have no idea who this is or their work (but I do recognize Chelsea Cain), but cool to see someone with interest in Cass. 



> Did you see that the Bensons replied to Tynion's tweet about Cass and Babs? https://twitter.com/TheJulieBenson/s...06439305519104


Glad to see Tynion and the Bensons thinking along the same lines, particularly on something I've also been wanting to see...

----------


## Assam

> Did you see that the Bensons replied to Tynion's tweet about Cass and Babs? https://twitter.com/TheJulieBenson/s...06439305519104


*Screams internally as high as possible*

I know the Bensons are good writers from their work on _The 100._...If they had Cass appear in BoP, or better yet made her a recurring character to help restore the dynamic, by extension bringing back Babs's personality in the process...

_Sigh_. I'll never not be furious about Babs becoming Batgirl again, but if they did this, I might consider lifting my absolute refusal to buy _Batgirl_ titles.

----------


## Assam

> I have no idea who this is or their work (but I do recognize Chelsea Cain), but cool to see someone with interest in Cass.


You've certainly read at least one thing they helped write: Detective Comics #957

----------


## millernumber1

> I have no idea who this is or their work (but I do recognize Chelsea Cain), but cool to see someone with interest in Cass. 
> 
> Glad to see Tynion and the Bensons thinking along the same lines, particularly on something I've also been wanting to see...


That's the co-writer of the solo Spoiler issue of Tec last month.

I just think that the Birds is a perfect place for guest stars, and hope that the Bensons get at least another year so they can prove me right.




> *Screams internally as high as possible*
> 
> I know the Bensons are good writers from their work on _The 100._...If they had Cass appear in BoP, or better yet made her a recurring character to help restore the dynamic, by extension bringing back Babs's personality in the process...
> 
> _Sigh_. I'll never not be furious about Babs becoming Batgirl again, but if they did this, I might consider lifting my absolute refusal to buy _Batgirl_ titles.


Is that a...Canary cry, perhaps?  :Wink: 

I totally understand the refusal to buy Babsgirl titles, but if you do break that resolution, I'd say that the Birds of Prey is a pretty good title to do it for.

----------


## Assam

I joked in the 'Tec thread that "Momma Babs" would be proud of Cass getting into Shakespeare, but it was only after reading the issue that it came to mind that back in her solo book, Babs actually _did_ want Cass to go to an acting class with her, making a point of how good she'd be at it. 

Much as he continues to push Nu52 elements and certain parts of Cass's personality are still missing, Tynion continues to prove that he really is _very_ familiar with Cass.

----------


## Assam

By DOKA: 

Cass Better Times.jpg

Happier Times

Ship Ruined.jpg

And the mystery of Cass's shrinking.

----------


## millernumber1

> By DOKA: 
> 
> Cass Better Times.jpg
> 
> Happier Times
> 
> Ship Ruined.jpg
> 
> And the mystery of Cass's shrinking.


I have been wondering about why new Cass is so tiny. Like, I liked it better when Tim, Steph, and Cass were all about the same size.

----------


## Assam

> I have been wondering about why new Cass is so tiny. Like, I liked it better when Tim, Steph, and Cass were all about the same size.


If you recall, which I'm sure _ you_ do, while it wasn't by much, _Tim_ was the shortest and youngest of the three.

----------


## Caivu

> I have been wondering about why new Cass is so tiny. Like, I liked it better when Tim, Steph, and Cass were all about the same size.


I think it's just to emphasize Cass's abilities. She doesn't _look_ imposing at all, even though she very much is. Though IIRC, officially she and Steph are the exact same size now.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you recall, which I'm sure _ you_ do, while it wasn't by much, _Tim_ was the shortest and youngest of the three.


Oh, I remember all right. I hold onto Steph's inch over him very tightly.  :Smile: 




> I think it's just to emphasize Cass's abilities. She doesn't _look_ imposing at all, even though she very much is. Though IIRC, officially she and Steph are the exact same size now.


I guess. It seems really deliberate for them to keep doing it - though it's mostly Barrows. I don't know if Takara or Martinez make as much of a point of it.

I forget - does the new Batman reference material give Cass a height? Steph's height doesn't seem to have changed that much in the whole n52 shift.

----------


## Assam

> I forget - does the new Batman reference material give Cass a height? Steph's height doesn't seem to have changed that much in the whole n52 shift.


According to the newest edition of the DC Encyclopedia, Cass is still 5"5' and 110 Pounds.

----------


## millernumber1

> According to the newest edition of the DC Encyclopedia, Cass is still 5"5' and 110 Pounds.


Hmm. Pretty sure Barrows is drawing her closer to 5 foot.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Hmm. Pretty sure Barrows is drawing her closer to 5 foot.


You're not wrong.

----------


## Assam

To the Cass fans who are dads, I hope you're all having an excellent Father's Day. 

And on this day, all I have to say to one Mr. Wayne is that he needs to get off his ass and adopt Cass again! DorkyDadBatman is best Batman. 

memecenter.jpg

Unbeatable.jpg

Father's Day.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> To the Cass fans who are dads, I hope you're all having an excellent Father's Day. 
> 
> And on this day, all I have to say to one Mr. Wayne is that he needs to get off his ass and adopt Cass again! DorkyDadBatman is best Batman. 
> 
> memecenter.jpg
> 
> Unbeatable.jpg
> 
> Father's Day.jpg


Hear hear!

----------


## Aahz

> Hmm. Pretty sure Barrows is drawing her closer to 5 foot.


If you look how tall her parents are, it never made much sense that Cass was short.


Btw. the also aged her down, pre flashpoint she was 2 years older than Tim and arround Jasons age.

----------


## Assam

> Btw. the also aged her down, pre flashpoint she was 2 years older than Tim and arround Jasons age.


Yeah, we know, unfortunately.  She was 20, or at least really close to it, at the end of the good continuity, and now she's younger and smaller than her two friends she used to be taller and older than. It's kind of hilarious how when Cass first met Damian, she was 10 years older than him, and if she ever meets him now (Gotta happen eventually, right?) the age difference will be only 3-4 years. 

*Sigh* Just another reason to go with the headcanon that while this character has proven to be Cassandra Cain in more than name, all the good continuity characters are still where we left them in Convergence, the world we're seeing now just having been an exact _replica_ of Post-Crisis Earth before Manhattan got involved.

----------


## Aioros22

> If you look how tall her parents are, it never made much sense that Cass was short.
> 
> 
> Btw. the also aged her down, pre flashpoint she was 2 years older than Tim and arround Jasons age.


Genetic traits like Height and eye color often jump a generation or two. My grandfather was over 1.90cm and I barely scrap 1:74.

----------


## adrikito

> to the cass fans who are dads, i hope you're all having an excellent father's day. 
> 
> And on this day, all i have to say to one mr. Wayne is that he needs to get off his ass and adopt cass again! Dorkydadbatman is best batman. 
> 
> memecenter.jpg
> 
> Unbeatable.jpg
> 
> Father's Day.jpg


good images

----------


## Caivu

> Genetic traits like Height and eye color often jump a generation or two. My grandfather was over 1.90cm and I barely scrap 1:74.


Plus, nutrition can adversely affect things even if one has the genes for height. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Cass probably didn't have a stellar diet growing up.

----------


## Assam

> Plus, nutrition can adversely affect things even if one has the genes for height. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Cass probably didn't have a stellar diet growing up.


It's basically confirmed. While Cain probably had Cass on an efficient, if simple, diet, from the age of 7 to 17, an age range where the body does a lot of its growing, Cass was roaming around surviving on the streets.

----------


## Assam

So not really a big deal at all, but is anyone else surprised that there isn't _any_ fanart of Cass and Clayface as friends (Outside of art of the initial 'Tec team)? Thought that's the kind of thing people would jump at.

----------


## RedBird

> So not really a big deal at all, but is anyone else surprised that there isn't _any_ fanart of Cass and Clayface as friends (Outside of art of the initial 'Tec team)? Thought that's the kind of thing people would jump at.


Not really. I don't think Clayface has enough people who want to draw fanart of him is all. 
Now if Cass had lovely interactions with 'bad guys' like say, Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn, THEN I'd be kinda surprised for the lack of fanart.

----------


## Rogue Star

> To the Cass fans who are dads, I hope you're all having an excellent Father's Day. 
> 
> And on this day, all I have to say to one Mr. Wayne is that he needs to get off his ass and adopt Cass again! DorkyDadBatman is best Batman. 
> 
> memecenter.jpg
> 
> Unbeatable.jpg
> 
> Father's Day.jpg


Thank you! If you're a father also then a belated happy Father's day to you as well. That second picture is beautiful.

----------


## Assam

Straight up stealing this from Tumblr, but to describe this image from left  to right: You vs. the girl she tells you not to worry about. 

babs cass.jpg

----------


## Jovos2099

Does anyone here think we'll ever see Cassandra show in a cartoon or movie?

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> Does anyone here think we'll ever see Cassandra show in a cartoon or movie?


Of course...as long as she continues appearing in the comics, its only a matter of time...the people that don't want that to happen and that are currently in charge in their respective jobs, won't be there forever...and the right opportunity will eventually come...its that simple really.
1) Some of us might not be here to see it.
2) It worries me if they do her wrong on TV...i hope that when it happens its well done.

----------


## Assam

So, as an AMAZING unintentional birthday present from Benjamin Percy yesterday, Connor Hawke is returning! 

Despite Dixon sort of writing Cass as earlier in her development during the two's team up, I still really digged their friendship. (One of the MANY friendships Cass had that were subsequently forgotten.) 

If the two were to meet up again, what would you guys like to see from their relationship? Any stories in mind for the two?

----------


## Assam

So there's a figure I've been thinking about the past few days and their ties to Cass, and, seeing how today is Steph's anniversery, now's as good as time to talk about him. It's the man who made so many people fall in love with the Eggplant Avenger, Bryan Q. Miller. 

What got me thinking was a conversation over in another thread where I expressed my disdain for Peter J. Tomasi for the several times his hatred of Cass shown through. Even just an insulting comment from Tom King about Cass has made me disinterested in the upcoming Mister Miracle book, which I was really looking forward to. 

So what about BQM? Its no new revelation that he did Cass dirty in his Batgirl book. Its the main reason why, while I enjoy  many aspects of the book, and acknowledge its high quality, it isnt and mever will be among my favorite books. 

But why don't I feel the same way about BQM as I do Tomasi? They're both excellent writers in their own right, and they've both done Cass wrong on multiple occasions. Sure, BQM never turned Cass evil, but like every writer who isnt Snyder, Tynion, Dixon and the writers of Cass's solo, he got a fundamental aspect of the character wrong (Impressive considering she only appeared in one scene).  Plus, there was his exclusion of Cass from the Batfamily history scene ( I've read his reasoning, and I don't agree with it) , and his blatant disregard for the Cass and steph friendship was also horrible. 

Like, right now in 'Tec, I'm not mad that Cass isn't spending every second looking for Steph because they don't have the same history as their counterparts. But in BQM's Batgirl, there should have been SOME  desire or effort on Steph's part to find her best friend. 

And fun as it was, the out of nowhere Supergirl friendship was still a slap in the face. 

So why don't I have the same bitter thoughts about BQM as I do other writers who have mistreated DV's greatest heto? 

Honestly, right now, I think its just because I don't think that HE thinks less of her. DiDio, Lee, and Tomasi all clearly don't like the character. Beechen didn't see anything wrong with the assignments he was given.And King had the gall to say that Bruce doesnt trust Cass as much as other allies. 

With BQM though? Batgirl #1 he made a mistake. A BIG mistake which had to be retconned. And while I think he SHOULD have read it before writing the character, its entirely possible neither he or his editor read or remembered Batgirl #50. 

With the history...I don't agree with his reasoning, but it wasn't like he was deliberately trying to erase Cass's significance. 

And while Steph not mentioning Cass or looking for her still doesn't sit right with me, I get that he wanted to keep the story focused on Steph and her development. Its not like he wrote any scenes on the level of Tomasi's movie night. 

The Supergirl thing still pisses me off, as does BQMs quote that he felt there was no more dramatic potential with Cass. But forgiving or understanding everything else, while it all makes me have negative feelings toward the book, it isn't enough to make me blacklist the writer. 

So yeah, big post that I just needed to get off my chest. BQM is still alright in my book, and while I'll always like Steph best as Robin, and if not that, Spoiler, I do still appreciate the work he did with the character, bringing her development to a head. 

With all that said, congrats to Cass's bestie on 25 Years of Existence! Now I'm gonna go find some more of my favorite scenes with the two to celebrate.

----------


## millernumber1

I'm so glad you wrote this, Assam. It's a very great piece - especially since some of the other really dedicated Cass fans I interact with have been really bitter about BQM and Steph's Batgirl run. Your posts in appreciation of Steph are very kind, and I, for one, am glad to have you on the board to represent Cass well.

I do think that BQM didn't do Cass anywhere close to justice, and I think a lot of that is a combination of lack of research and editorial instruction. I do think it's important to Steph's arc that she be Batgirl, and thus Cass did have to give up the cowl for that to work - but I don't think it had to be the way it was - I think Cass just giving Steph the suit, and then having a scene like the one at the end of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, only with Cass and Alfred or something like that, would have gone a long way towards not building up the annoyance that Cass fans justly feel in reading those first issues. And she should have come back in year 2 (and they should have interacted in Gates of Gotham...and...and...and)  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I'm so glad you wrote this, Assam. It's a very great piece - especially since some of the other really dedicated Cass fans I interact with have been really bitter about BQM and Steph's Batgirl run. Your posts in appreciation of Steph are very kind, and I, for one, am glad to have you on the board to represent Cass well.
> 
> I do think that BQM didn't do Cass anywhere close to justice, and I think a lot of that is a combination of lack of research and editorial instruction. I do think it's important to Steph's arc that she be Batgirl, and thus Cass did have to give up the cowl for that to work - but I don't think it had to be the way it was - I think Cass just giving Steph the suit, and then having a scene like the one at the end of Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, only with Cass and Alfred or something like that, would have gone a long way towards not building up the annoyance that Cass fans justly feel in reading those first issues. And she should have come back in year 2 (and they should have interacted in Gates of Gotham...and...and...and)


Glad you enjoyed the read (despite the typos.) And yeah, those things you described should have definitely happened. 

Sadly, there is a lot of hate between the two fanbases, though seemingly not as much as there used to be. From what I can tell, it mostly comes from a single source for each. During the period of time when both Cass and Steph were gone, it wasn't uncommon to see things like "Poor Steph", "Who cares about Cass? We need Steph back!", etc. At a point where the fanbases should have been united, fans were driving a wedge, mostly motivated by the fact that they found Cass boring or unrelatable, which in itself is because, while Steph is great, she's still a much more conventional heroine, _especially_ as Batgirl. And naturally, comments like those I mentioned rile up Cass fans as much as both fanbases are riles up when someone calls Babs the one true Batgirl or the only Batgirl that matters. Of course, there are some Cass fans who just don't like Steph flat out and not just because of some fans, but they don't tend to be the majority from what I've seen. 

Me personally, I couldn't ever see myself hating Steph. While I wouldn't care about her even an iota as much as I do if she didn't have her friendship with Cass, I still wouldn't _dislike_ her.  And the fact that the two _do_ love each other, whichever way you want to take that, makes all the hate between fans even worse. 

In Summary:

Cass- Perfection. And is hopefully done being screwed around with. 

Steph- An awesome character in her own right and one of DC's best. And is hopefully done being screwed around with. 

The Batgirl Fanbase- Toxic and Crazy, and this will not stop until Cass and Steph both have their histories restored, are put in outside media, and get solo books...so most likely not any time soon. 

Bryan Q. Miller- Very talented writer who made some screw-ups and genuine errors like most other writers would. 

Bryan Q. Miller's _Batgirl_: A highly enjoyable, well written and well drawn book which is unfortunately severely hampered by non-technical qualities. If I had to give it a rating, on its own, 8 or 9 out of 10, and taking everything into account, a 6/10.

----------


## millernumber1

> Glad you enjoyed the read (despite the typos.) And yeah, those things you described should have definitely happened. 
> 
> Sadly, there is a lot of hate between the two fanbases, though seemingly not as much as there used to be. From what I can tell, it mostly comes from a single source for each. During the period of time when both Cass and Steph were gone, it wasn't uncommon to see things like "Poor Steph", "Who cares about Cass? We need Steph back!", etc. At a point where the fanbases should have been united, fans were driving a wedge, mostly motivated by the fact that they found Cass boring or unrelatable, which in itself is because, while Steph is great, she's still a much more conventional heroine, _especially_ as Batgirl. And naturally, comments like those I mentioned rile up Cass fans as much as both fanbases are riles up when someone calls Babs the one true Batgirl or the only Batgirl that matters. Of course, there are some Cass fans who just don't like Steph flat out and not just because of some fans, but they don't tend to be the majority from what I've seen. 
> 
> Me personally, I couldn't ever see myself hating Steph. While I wouldn't care about her even an iota as much as I do if she didn't have her friendship with Cass, I still wouldn't _dislike_ her.  And the fact that the two _do_ love each other, whichever way you want to take that, makes all the hate between fans even worse. 
> 
> In Summary:
> 
> Cass- Perfection. And is hopefully done being screwed around with. 
> ...


Yes, I had noticed that the hate between Steph and Cass fans seems to have died down a bit - I think because we're both fairly settled that both Steph and Cass are back to stay, so there's a bit less insecurity and the anger that comes from that insecurity. Now it's just a question of building up the fanbases enough that what you say - histories restored, film/tv/game appearances, and solos, are something that would be profitable and beloved, like their original solo books.

Your solo rating of Batgirl is pretty much the same as mine - I think there are, as with all books with significant external constraints, a lot of things I could point to that aren't perfection, but taken for what it tried to achieve, I think it's magnificent.

I basically left comics from 2011 to 2014, until Steph came back, so I didn't really know what was going on then, but I did see a fair amount of indifference towards Cass from the "bring back Steph" crowd. But there was also the Cass Cain day in August, 2012, where Steph and Cass fans came together to buy Cass's 1st solo issue on Comixology (my first Comixology purchase ever). We need more of that, and less of the "every character for themselves."

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

What did BQM say about Cass, again? I forget

----------


## Assam

> What did BQM say about Cass, again? I forget


In the first issue of Batgirl, he had Cass say that she fought for Bruce, who was "dead", and that's why she quit. Even though that blatantly contradicts the scene from Batgirl #50 where Cass made it clear she fought for what the Bat represented. 

With the Bat-History, Miller didn't feel it was appropriate for Steph to poke fun at Cass at that point in time (Even though the only reason that was a problem was because he otherwise _ignored_ their friendship). 

And the reason he didn't use Cass at all in the two years he had was because he didn't think there was any more dramatic potential with Cass, which was completely false, with many ideas brought up in her solo book never having gotten to be explored because of Editorial and their awfulness.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> In the first issue of Batgirl, he had Cass say that she fought for Bruce, who was "dead", and that's why she quit. Even though that blatantly contradicts the scene from Batgirl #50 where Cass made it clear she fought for what the Bat represented. 
> 
> With the Bat-History, Miller didn't feel it was appropriate for Steph to poke fun at Cass at that point in time (Even though the only reason that was a problem was because he otherwise _ignored_ their friendship). 
> 
> And the reason he didn't use Cass at all in the two years he had was because he didn't think there was any more dramatic potential with Cass, which was completely false, with many ideas brought up in her solo book never having gotten to be explored because of Editorial and their awfulness.


In his defense, Cass wasn't a WASP, so she had to run out of stories eventually

*cough*

----------


## Assam

> In his defense, Cass wasn't a WASP, so she had to run out of stories eventually
> 
> *cough*


Yeah, being a successful disabled woman of color basically makes her everything the current editorial staff is disgustingly against.

----------


## godisawesome

In defense Miller, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that's was his polite way of covering for editorial's "the audience is too stupid and dumb for multiple Batgirls!" excuse that originally cancelled Cass's book and wound up consigning both Steph and Cass to limbo.

Heck, it's even possible there was just implicit dislike in the office towards the character, considering her history up to that point, and the very fact that the whole impetus behind changing the girl behind the cowl was basically that they got cold feet with their plans for Babs. If you get called in to launch a new Batgirl book featuring a character different from the one who held 70+ issues, got trashed by editorial in an incredibly stupid face-heel turn, got righteously complained back into her suit, then had yet another hated and critically panned miniseries where everyone repeated the same broad mistakes _again_, you might consider using the character to be akin to shouting "Smite me, O might Smiter!" in a thunder storm even without explicit instructions to refuse the character.

Cass's return as Black Bat may have been fueled almost entirely by Morrison and Snyder wanting to do something while printing money for DC.

----------


## Assam

@godisawesome   Definitely all possible, and I am most certainly inclined to believe that there was pure malice toward Cass within the DC offices.(There still is, too.)

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah, being a successful disabled woman of color basically makes her everything the current editorial staff is disgustingly against.


As much as I do genuinely believe that there is a bloc of people who dislike Cass in charge at DC, I think it's less racism and more them trying to recreate their childhood faves, which doesn't include Cass. 

The inmates are basically running the asylum.

----------


## Assam

> As much as I do genuinely believe that there is a bloc of people who dislike Cass in charge at DC, I think it's less racism and more them trying to recreate their childhood faves, which doesn't include Cass. 
> 
> The inmates are basically running the asylum.


Eh. I personally think its both.

----------


## godisawesome

And I think a total lack of faith in the fanbase to support multiple Batgirls, to a somewhat ridiculous and kind of sexist extent, though the sexism is probably more of the business kind derived of ignorance and underestimation of the marketplace than malice.

 The ostensible reason for cancelling Cass's book was because Batwoman was coming out. For some reason, they felt that a generally art heavy book featuring a young woman of color with a learning disability (not to mention an established presence in Gotham and among the family alongside decent sales) would have such crossover with a book about a fully adult lesbian woman in what became a writing heavy book, and that the customer would be so _exclusive_ with their spending choices between the two books. That's radically different from their approach to the boys; Tim and Dick both had solos written by the same author, and both tended to act as autonomous heroes while being far more visually similar than Batgirl and Batwoman. And yet they felt totally justified that Batgirl and Batwoman were two books that could not exist.

Cass's Face-Heel turn also makes a bit more sense when you think of it as being the editors trying to maximize profit from the Cassandra Cain IP while holding to this One-Batwoman Policy, and the casual neglect for the character's history and the unfortunate implications of her becoming an Evil Dragon Lady. I don't see it as hatred for the character as much as total apathy and ignorance of her appeal, which also explains the Beechen miniseries: as far as DC's leadership was concerned, Cassandra was technically back as a good guy and getting a miniseries, so why were people still complaining? The actual quality of the writing and fidelity to the character didn't enter their calculations at all. And the resulting fandom argument between Steph and Cass fans was only read by them as "Clearly, the audience can't stand more than one Batgirl, so we should banish both characters and put the IP back on Babs."

Again, I don't think it's malic, I think it's the kind of writing-light, talking-down-to-your-audience mentality that wound up making the New 52 anathema to fans who's enjoyed good writing for years at DC.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

I think that, on some level, then DC writers recognized that Cass' character is an archetype, and the strength of that puts her above other female Bats.

Batwoman, all the Batgirls, rely on Batman to make their characters work. With no Batman, we lose Babs Batgirl, no Batman means no Batwoman. Hell, Robin and Nightwing depend entirely on Batman's character as well.

But Cass? Her origin, the contradictions in her character (which are good things!), the noble savage, the nature vs. nurture represented by her character, she's in a class equal to Batman in terms of character strength.     

I guess they doubted the ability to sell a silver medalist when we had a gold medalist in Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> In defense Miller, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that's was his polite way of covering for editorial's "the audience is too stupid and dumb for multiple Batgirls!" excuse that originally cancelled Cass's book and wound up consigning both Steph and Cass to limbo.
> 
> Heck, it's even possible there was just implicit dislike in the office towards the character, considering her history up to that point, and the very fact that the whole impetus behind changing the girl behind the cowl was basically that they got cold feet with their plans for Babs. If you get called in to launch a new Batgirl book featuring a character different from the one who held 70+ issues, got trashed by editorial in an incredibly stupid face-heel turn, got righteously complained back into her suit, then had yet another hated and critically panned miniseries where everyone repeated the same broad mistakes _again_, you might consider using the character to be akin to shouting "Smite me, O might Smiter!" in a thunder storm even without explicit instructions to refuse the character.
> 
> Cass's return as Black Bat may have been fueled almost entirely by Morrison and Snyder wanting to do something while printing money for DC.


I'm really, really curious about the narrative I've heard that editorial tried to get Babs out of the chair twice - first between Dixon and Simone's run, when Terry Moore did a guest arc of the series and had Babs get some kind of temporary walking ability, then second with Oracle The Cure. It's a common bit of fanlore (like "Harper Row is Snyder's response to editorial banning Steph and Cass - which I also can't find any sources on), but based purely on the books as published, it doesn't make sense to me.  Terry Moore's arc was, I think, two issues, which is way too short for DC to have been doing anything permanent, since solicits are three months in advance (though maybe they were shorter then, in 2002-2003). And Oracle The Cure doesn't even hint at Babs regaining her legs - the title is confusing, since there's nothing really significant about a cure - but if DC changed their minds at the last minute, is there any kind of statement or employee who's said, years later, that they intended to do so?

I will say, however, that even without a direct statement from Tomasi, it's almost crystal clear that he really dislikes Cass, since he was editor in charge of the Evil Cass arc in Robin, and went out of his way to avoid using Cass every chance he got.




> And I think a total lack of faith in the fanbase to support multiple Batgirls, to a somewhat ridiculous and kind of sexist extent, though the sexism is probably more of the business kind derived of ignorance and underestimation of the marketplace than malice.
> 
>  The ostensible reason for cancelling Cass's book was because Batwoman was coming out. For some reason, they felt that a generally art heavy book featuring a young woman of color with a learning disability (not to mention an established presence in Gotham and among the family alongside decent sales) would have such crossover with a book about a fully adult lesbian woman in what became a writing heavy book, and that the customer would be so _exclusive_ with their spending choices between the two books. That's radically different from their approach to the boys; Tim and Dick both had solos written by the same author, and both tended to act as autonomous heroes while being far more visually similar than Batgirl and Batwoman. And yet they felt totally justified that Batgirl and Batwoman were two books that could not exist.
> 
> Cass's Face-Heel turn also makes a bit more sense when you think of it as being the editors trying to maximize profit from the Cassandra Cain IP while holding to this One-Batwoman Policy, and the casual neglect for the character's history and the unfortunate implications of her becoming an Evil Dragon Lady. I don't see it as hatred for the character as much as total apathy and ignorance of her appeal, which also explains the Beechen miniseries: as far as DC's leadership was concerned, Cassandra was technically back as a good guy and getting a miniseries, so why were people still complaining? The actual quality of the writing and fidelity to the character didn't enter their calculations at all. And the resulting fandom argument between Steph and Cass fans was only read by them as "Clearly, the audience can't stand more than one Batgirl, so we should banish both characters and put the IP back on Babs."
> 
> Again, I don't think it's malic, I think it's the kind of writing-light, talking-down-to-your-audience mentality that wound up making the New 52 anathema to fans who's enjoyed good writing for years at DC.


Is there a statement from editorial or a writer saying directly that Cass and Kate were seen as potentially cannibalizing each other's audience (which is dumb as heck, since as you say, the Robin and Nightwing books didn't cannibalize each other, and more to the point, Batman has at least three, if not five titles going at any point, and they're never seen as a danger to each others' sales).

----------


## Assam

> Is there a statement from editorial or a writer saying directly that Cass and Kate were seen as potentially cannibalizing each other's audience (which is dumb as heck, since as you say, the Robin and Nightwing books didn't cannibalize each other, and more to the point, Batman has at least three, if not five titles going at any point, and they're never seen as a danger to each others' sales).


Can't find the link right now, myself and several others here have seen it though, but one of the people involved with the art on Batgirl #73 posted a sketch of the final page on Deviantart, and in the description, he said the reason for the book's cancellation was to make room for Batwoman. Editorial really was that idiotic and sexist.

----------


## millernumber1

> Can't find the link right now, myself and several others here have seen it though, but one of the people involved with the art on Batgirl #73 posted a sketch of the final page on Deviantart, and in the description, he said the reason for the book's cancellation was to make room for Batwoman. Editorial really was that idiotic and sexist.


If you find that link, I would be VERY interested in seeing it.

----------


## Assam

> If you find that link, I would be VERY interested in seeing it.


Ask and you shall receive: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgir...g-22-178829022

----------


## godisawesome

> I'm really, really curious about the narrative I've heard that editorial tried to get Babs out of the chair twice - first between Dixon and Simone's run, when Terry Moore did a guest arc of the series and had Babs get some kind of temporary walking ability, then second with Oracle The Cure. It's a common bit of fanlore (like "Harper Row is Snyder's response to editorial banning Steph and Cass - which I also can't find any sources on), but based purely on the books as published, it doesn't make sense to me.  Terry Moore's arc was, I think, two issues, which is way too short for DC to have been doing anything permanent, since solicits are three months in advance (though maybe they were shorter then, in 2002-2003). And Oracle The Cure doesn't even hint at Babs regaining her legs - the title is confusing, since there's nothing really significant about a cure - but if DC changed their minds at the last minute, is there any kind of statement or employee who's said, years later, that they intended to do so?
> 
> I will say, however, that even without a direct statement from Tomasi, it's almost crystal clear that he really dislikes Cass, since he was editor in charge of the Evil Cass arc in Robin, and went out of his way to avoid using Cass every chance he got.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a statement from editorial or a writer saying directly that Cass and Kate were seen as potentially cannibalizing each other's audience (which is dumb as heck, since as you say, the Robin and Nightwing books didn't cannibalize each other, and more to the point, Batman has at least three, if not five titles going at any point, and they're never seen as a danger to each others' sales).


"Oracle: the Cure" has a bit more circumstantial evidence that it was meant to be a "restore her ability to walk and put her back in the suit": the delay in Batgirl Vol. 2's publication. It was the odd man out of all the Batbooks launched after RIP, and such a big hoopla was made over who the new Batgirl would be, that when the book finally premiered showcasing a character that editorial had discarded before taking the costume without much in the way of explanation, it felt like something was up. The sudden lapse between the two BoP volumes also felt like that series was ended for some purpose, especially since it didn't seem to be struggling before hand.

I don't know of any official announcement suggesting that Steph's run was the result of a shockingly good bit of creative work on a back up plan, but it seems to fit the context of DC's actions leading up to Flashpoint and afterwards.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ask and you shall receive: http://www.deviantart.com/art/Batgir...g-22-178829022


Thanks! Good to have it in writing from a direct source, even if it's incredibly annoying to know that editorial has been an idiot about Batgirl since 2006.




> "Oracle: the Cure" has a bit more circumstantial evidence that it was meant to be a "restore her ability to walk and put her back in the suit": the delay in Batgirl Vol. 2's publication. It was the odd man out of all the Batbooks launched after RIP, and such a big hoopla was made over who the new Batgirl would be, that when the book finally premiered showcasing a character that editorial had discarded before taking the costume without much in the way of explanation, it felt like something was up. The sudden lapse between the two BoP volumes also felt like that series was ended for some purpose, especially since it didn't seem to be struggling before hand.
> 
> I don't know of any official announcement suggesting that Steph's run was the result of a shockingly good bit of creative work on a back up plan, but it seems to fit the context of DC's actions leading up to Flashpoint and afterwards.


Hmmm. Still seems a bit too speculative to me. It was pretty clear to me that Beechen knew (and was mad) that Steph was going to be Batgirl by the time Redemption was finished, based on interviews he did (for all his faults, Beechen did seem to think Cass deserved more than he gave her).

I think the problem I have with the narrative that Oracle: The Cure was going to be Babs becoming Batgirl again is that the narrative works pretty well - the Birds disband in defeat, Babs is furious at her failure with Joker and fails further against Calculator in The Cure, leaving her in the state she's in at the beginning of Steph's run as Batgirl, only for Steph's hope to lift her back into a place where she can become the Oracle the world needs again. I don't see a trajectory at any of those points where "magically Babs gets her legs back and becomes Batgirl". She'd be almost more like Digi-Babs in the Burnside run, trying to destroy all threats rather than fight with a smile.

----------


## Assam

cass and babs cosplay.jpg

cass and mar'i.jpg

Too sweet  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

pride bats.jpg

Surprised I hadn't seen this yet. The Bats of Pride!

----------


## Assam

cass is black bat.jpg

So this was posted on the Tim thread for an unrelated reason, but there's something I want to point out. 

The first poster tagged Cass as Black Bat. And they are not alone in doing this, even among people making posts about the current Detective Comics book. 

Tynion _has_ to be able to tell that Orphan isn't sticking with people. Right?

----------


## Assam

What do you guys think of these designs?: 

cass ninja.jpg

cass nin ja 2.jpg

NML Cass.jpg

Yeah, the last one is just from the animated NML concept art, but it's still an alternative.

----------


## godisawesome

> cass is black bat.jpg
> 
> So this was posted on the Tim thread for an unrelated reason, but there's something I want to point out. 
> 
> The first poster tagged Cass as Black Bat. And they are not alone in doing this, even among people making posts about the current Detective Comics book. 
> 
> Tynion _has_ to be able to tell that Orphan isn't sticking with people. Right?


I think others have mentioned that someone resurrected the old Black Bat pulp-hero and is using that as the title. It possible, Tynion and others may be under orders to avoid a Shazam/Captain Marvel situation.

----------


## Assam

> I think others have mentioned that someone resurrected the old Black Bat pulp-hero and is using that as the title. It possible, Tynion and others may be under orders to avoid a Shazam/Captain Marvel situation.


I'm fully aware of the situation with Dynamite, and Black Bat was never a great name to begin with. I just think there's a world of better names out there than 'Orphan'.

----------


## Frontier

> What do you guys think of these designs?: 
> 
> cass ninja.jpg
> 
> cass nin ja 2.jpg
> 
> NML Cass.jpg
> 
> Yeah, the last one is just from the animated NML concept art, but it's still an alternative.


I like the bottom one the best, though that might be because it's the least different from her normal Batgirl look.

----------


## Assam

So as I just learned on the Tim thread, he's apparently in the DCEU intro. Well hey! Batman, Nightwing, Robin and Batgirl as the 4 ones there? Cool, that _was_ the main team for a few years there...oh wait.  :Frown:  (No, I'm never gonna stop being bitter.  :Smile: )

----------


## Aioros22

The funny part is that we already know Jason used a quarterstaff before, so it`s either a reference to him and/or Tim picking it up. 

So make that five.

----------


## Assam

Oh. OH. *OH!* *OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!*

CASS IS 18 TODAY EVERYBODY!!! THIS IS THE ONLY REASON TO CELEBRATE TODAY!!! 

cass first appearence.jpg

Was it "She's the best" at first sight for anyone else?

----------


## Assam

"let me write a comic where Joker is a good guy and Batman is a villain." 

"YES."

 "let me use Cassandra Cain in a comic."

 "No."

..................................................  ..................................................  .........

Surprisingly, _I_ wasn't the one who posted this on Twitter...although the thought did come to mind upon hearing the announcement.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> "let me write a comic where Joker is a good guy and Batman is a villain." 
> 
> "YES."
> 
>  "let me use Cassandra Cain in a comic."
> 
>  "No."
> 
> ..................................................  ..................................................  .........
> ...


Err, what? What's this about?

----------


## Assam

> Err, what? What's this about?


http://community.comicbookresources....n-White-Knight

----------


## millernumber1

Yeah. Or "Let's write a bunch of spinoffs starring evil Batmen and every side character!"

"Every side character including Steph and Cass?'

"NOPE!"

(Side eyeing you like crazy, Metal.)

----------


## Assam

> Yeah. Or "Let's write a bunch of spinoffs starring evil Batmen and every side character!"
> 
> "Every side character including Steph and Cass?'
> 
> "NOPE!"
> 
> (Side eyeing you like crazy, Metal.)


Here's another one: 

"Let's write a book entirely focused on the women of the DCU!" 

"The women of the DCU including Cass and Steph?" 

"NOPE! Now, Marguerite, go post a tweet saying how you care about the two. It'll give them a false sense of hope." 

Seriously, even after all this time, Cass and Steph are still getting table scraps. They're very tasty scraps mind you, but scraps nonetheless.

----------


## millernumber1

> Here's another one: 
> 
> "Let's write a book entirely focused on the women of the DCU!" 
> 
> "The women of the DCU including Cass and Steph?" 
> 
> "NOPE! Now, Marguerite, go post a tweet saying how you care about the two. It'll give them a false sense of hope." 
> 
> Seriously, even after all this time, Cass and Steph are still getting table scraps. They're very tasty scraps mind you, but scraps nonetheless.


Ugh. Yes. A HUGE reason I cannot get on board with Bombshells is the way Bennett's excluded those two so deliberately. And the recent choice to use Donna and Cassie as representative Japanese characters instead of Cass just makes it so much more offensive to me. (wow, tonight is "fans being bitter" night. Sad day.)

----------


## Agent Z

> Ugh. Yes. A HUGE reason I cannot get on board with Bombshells is the way Bennett's excluded those two so deliberately. And the recent choice to use Donna and Cassie as representative Japanese characters instead of Cass just makes it so much more offensive to me. (wow, tonight is "fans being bitter" night. Sad day.)


Um, Cass isn't Japanese. And I don't think they haven't shown up because of deliberate exclusion so much as the writer just hasn't found a place for them yet. It's not like the book features every single DC female character.

----------


## Atlanta96

> Ugh. Yes. A HUGE reason I cannot get on board with Bombshells is the way Bennett's excluded those two so deliberately. And the recent choice to use Donna and Cassie as representative Japanese characters instead of Cass just makes it so much more offensive to me. (wow, tonight is "fans being bitter" night. Sad day.)


LOL are you serious? There goes my chances of ever reading Bombshells ever again. Ironically I was just talking on Twitter about how DC hates Cass and refuses to do anything good with her even when they want more diversity, this is probably the worst example yet. "My story needs more Asian characters" "How about beloved fan favorite Asian character Cass..." "Let's make Donna Troy and Cassie S Asian!"

WTF, DC?

----------


## Caivu

> Um, Cass isn't Japanese. And I don't think they haven't shown up because of deliberate exclusion so much as the writer just hasn't found a place for them yet. It's not like the book features every single DC female character.


Barring other evidence, this is the most reasonable way to go.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

I guess Cass still has a soft embargo on her.

BTW, there's a fanfic series with Cass that just updated  :Wink: 

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2542344...in-The-Batgirl

----------


## Aahz

> Um, Cass isn't Japanese.


Bombshells isn't the main contiuity, and they changed afaik the nationality of several characters.

----------


## millernumber1

> Um, Cass isn't Japanese. And I don't think they haven't shown up because of deliberate exclusion so much as the writer just hasn't found a place for them yet. It's not like the book features every single DC female character.


1) See Aahz's point. Donna and Cassie aren't any kind of Asian, but they're Japanese in Bombshells now.

2) I've done research on this point, and I have yet to find any evidence that Cass is NOT Japanese. People argue for Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese for Lady Shiva, and I can't find any statement that eliminates one of them.

3) The book features nearly every other character - are you telling me that Steph and Cass couldn't fit into Harper's Bat-Girls fanclub, when Tim Drake and Nell Harper (from Steph's own freaking Batgirl series!) do?




> LOL are you serious? There goes my chances of ever reading Bombshells ever again. Ironically I was just talking on Twitter about how DC hates Cass and refuses to do anything good with her even when they want more diversity, this is probably the worst example yet. "My story needs more Asian characters" "How about beloved fan favorite Asian character Cass..." "Let's make Donna Troy and Cassie S Asian!"
> 
> WTF, DC?


Yup. It's beyond offensive and frustrating.




> Barring other evidence, this is the most reasonable way to go.


I don't see how Nell, Harper, and Tim have a place when Steph and Cass don't. Or freaking Felicity from the Arrow TV show. Is that circumstantial? Yep. But the way they've been excluded when other characters are included, especially Nell, really makes it look deliberate.




> I guess Cass still has a soft embargo on her.


I've not heard of an indication that she's embargoed. I think that her reputation is still really hard to deal with for a lot of writers. And then there's Tomasi, who just hates her.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't see how Nell, Harper, and Tim have a place when Steph and Cass don't. Or freaking Felicity from the Arrow TV show. Is that circumstantial? Yep. But the way they've been excluded when other characters are included, especially Nell, really makes it look deliberate.


If it _is_ deliberate, I'd chalk it up to an editorial thing. Or maybe a story-based one, as Agent Z said. Maybe even a bit of both.

----------


## millernumber1

> If it _is_ deliberate, I'd chalk it up to an editorial thing. Or maybe a story-based one, as Agent Z said. Maybe even a bit of both.


I don't think Bombshells has much, if any, editorial interference. And any story based reasons are nonsense, unless it's to give them both really awesome stories - but we're over 100 issues in and no sign of them at all.

I get that Bombshells is not for me. It's antithetical to most of what I like. And the exclusion of Steph and Cass isn't really part of that, unless it's because Steph isn't representative enough of something Bennett thinks is missing from the Bombshells universe (which makes Cass even more perplexing, so I'm not saying that's the reason - though the inclusion of Nell seems some kind of indication).

I'm glad people love the book. But I dislike it on a huge number of levels, and Steph and Cass being excluded with zero comment is one of the longest running, and unless Bennett actually addresses that exclusion, there's just no way it'll ever overcome this kind of inertia.

----------


## Caivu

> I don't think Bombshells has much, if any, editorial interference. And any story based reasons are nonsense, unless it's to give them both really awesome stories - but we're over 100 issues in and no sign of them at all.


All I can tell you for sure is that the reason they're not there is _not_ due to any personal dislike of either character on Bennett's part.

----------


## millernumber1

> All I can tell you for sure is that the reason they're not there is _not_ due to any personal dislike of either character on Bennett's part.


I don't think I've said that Bennett dislikes them. I have no evidence either way on that. All I'm saying is that Bennett is deliberately excluding them - and I'm sure there are reasons. But none of the reasons I can think of (and I've spent a long, long time thinking about this) in any way satisfy me.

And it's her series - it's totally her right to use what characters she likes best, and tell her story best. But as a reader, and a huge fan of Steph and Cass, I have the right to not be interested, and to find the speculative/circumstantial reasons for not including them frustrating at the minimum.

----------


## Assam

So apparently the next DC Animated Film is going to be an adaptation of the Elseworlds book, _Gotham by Gaslight._  A Batman movie. Another *solo* Batman movie. Ugh. 

As an aside, can I just say that I'm sick and tired of people saying that it'd be hard to include Cass in an animated film? So often I hear, "Well you'd have to make the story center around her to introduce her". And its just...so what? Damian has gotten _three_ movies centered around him, 4 if you count the first of the Teen Titans films. 2nd, _Bad Blood_, weak a movie as it was, managed to introduce both Kate AND Luke. (Yes, I would settle for a role as small as one of those, and just watch the scenes Cass was in on mass repeat) 3rd, even IF the writers couldn't figure out how to introduce her(Which I'd say makes them pretty bad writers since even I've come up with some good ideas)...they don't need to. Just have her in the movie working alongside Bruce and whoever else (I don't recall Dick's backstory being gone over in Under the Red Hood), show off her character and the qualities that make her great, a few character moments scattered throughout, a couple cool fight scenes, maybe some _hints_ to her backstory, and boom. Once people who don't read comics see Cass, they will get interested. They'll learn about her history, maybe find scans online of some great comic moments, and BOOM, more people are now invested, and _want_ to see the character get focused on in a future movie. 

(Also, if any haters are lingering on this thread, please don't bring up "We have no idea if that would happen. Its just theoretical." Because, no, it isn't. Compared to the general audience, comic fans are basically "test screening" size. And while there are some who don't care for the character, _most_ who have actually read Cass's solo book (And even a lot of people who have only been reading Tynion'Tec) know how amazing she is.)

Plus, thinking about it (I actually JUST thought of this) I think Cass would actually appeal to the general audience _more._ I've seen detractors claim  that Cass isn't relatable. Gee, I wonder why a readership mostly consisting of neurotypical white males wouldn't find Cass relatable. :Mad:  But that's just it. If Cass has managed to get as popular and beloved as she has with _just_ comic readers, imagine what kind of following she'd get when exposed to an audience filled with more people her character and story speaks to. 

*Sigh* Why do I feel the need to essentially write mini-blog posts about Cass every time something Bat-related is announced?

----------


## Caivu

Plus, the benefit of having her in an animated role (from a financial standpoint to DC) is that she wouldn't even need a VA. I know that's not ideal and runs the risk of flanderization, but still.

----------


## Frontier

I was thinking probably the most likely place for Cass to appear in animation would be an in-continuity Batman movie that features a variant of the 'Tec team, though I'm not sure how likely another Batman film in the animated film's continuity is at this point after _Bad Blood_...




> Plus, the benefit of having her in an animated role (from a financial standpoint to DC) is that she wouldn't even need a VA. I know that's not ideal and runs the risk of flanderization, but still.


She would probably need one for grunts at least, though those aren't always credited I believe.

----------


## Caivu

> She would probably need one for grunts at least, though those aren't always credited I believe.


The cheat there would be to use her in a film with at least one other female role, and have that actress do the performance.

----------


## millernumber1

Technically, all the Damian films are in the same continuity as Bad Blood, but they're going a very different direction, focusing more on Teen Titans and Justice League.

----------


## Assam

> Plus, the benefit of having her in an animated role (from a financial standpoint to DC) is that she wouldn't even need a VA. I know that's not ideal and runs the risk of flanderization, but still.


_Maybe_ that could work. Personally I'd only go that route if the film was introducing her to both the audience AND Batman. If the film were to start at a point where she's already working with Bruce, I'd rather she be capable of speaking in 1-3 word sentences. Definitely wouldn't start her out at the point she can talking in full sentences but with pauses and stutters mixed in (Though ideally she'd get there eventually) 




> I was thinking probably the most likely place for Cass to appear in animation would be an in-continuity Batman movie that features a variant of the 'Tec team, though I'm not sure how likely another Batman film in the animated film's continuity is at this point after _Bad Blood_...


Honestly, I think a loose adaptation of _Rise of the Batmen_ could really work. The story is already meant to be a blockbluster popcorn movie in structure. The only really changes I think would have to be made are a split focus on Tim, Cass, Steph and whoever they put in Basil's place since I don't see them going that route unfortunately, rather than so much on Tim, with Kate still being the central protagonist of course, and have a more triumphant ending. (No Tim "Death".)

----------


## Caivu

> Honestly, I think a loose adaptation of _Rise of the Batmen_ could really work. The story is already meant to be a blockbluster popcorn movie in structure. The only really changes I think would have to be made are a split focus on Tim, Cass, Steph and whoever they put in Basil's place since I don't see them going that route unfortunately, rather than so much on Tim, with Kate still being the central protagonist of course, and have a more triumphant ending. (No Tim "Death".)


Another strength of this idea is that the story as it exists now could easily be told in about half an hour. Maybe even 20 minutes. So there's plenty of room to expand everyone out while also beefing up the action scenes.

----------


## Assam

> Another strength of this idea is that the story as it exists now could easily be told in about half an hour. Maybe even 20 minutes. So there's plenty of room to expand everyone out while also beefing up the action scenes.


Yeah, I was thinking that too.

----------


## darkseidpwns

When was the last time we had a solo Batman movie though?
TKJ is a Joker movie
Assault on Arkham a Suicide Squad movie
Batman and Harley is pretty self explanatory
The "Damian" trilogy is about the family
TDKR is the last one that comes to mind.

Cassandra's best chance are the Damian films which I have a feeling they wont be making because Dick and Damian have found a home in TT leaving Batman films to do something else like Gaslight.

----------


## Caivu

By Dustin Nguyen and Derek Fridolfs:

4b170bd6-a840-4aea-bdc1-4da46bded909.jpg

----------


## RedBird

Honestly, I would be happy to have Cass in an animated film that veered away from the current continuity of the films that have come out. You know in the same way that Batman and Harley, TKJ and now Gotham by Gaslight are, just one good one shot film is all you need, look at UTRH.

----------


## Assam

> just one good one shot film is all you need, look at UTRH.


Yeah, I've made that point for awhile. Just that one excellent movie was all it took to make Jason one of the most well known and popular BatFamily members. I firmly believe the same thing could happen with Cass. (Its not like she's lacking in amazing stories to take inspiration from.)

----------


## darkseidpwns

UTRH was based on Under the Hood and Return of Jason Todd, these are as much important Batman and arguably Joker stories as they are Jason stories. Cass doesn't remotely have anything like that. NML being the only exception but that is too long for one or even 2 films. Besides if a cut of the story is advocated there is no guarantee that Cass would still  not get the short end of the stick, afterall its a story about Gotham as a dystopian wasteland first and foremost. I cant think of any other story.

----------


## Assam

> UTRH was based on Under the Hood and Return of Jason Todd, these are as much important Batman and arguably Joker stories as they are Jason stories. Cass doesn't remotely have anything like that. NML being the only exception but that is too long for one or even 2 films. Besides if a cut of the story is advocated there is no guarantee that Cass would still  not get the short end of the stick, afterall its a story about Gotham as a dystopian wasteland first and foremost. I cant think of any other story.


Not really sure what point you're trying to make. To be included in an ensemble piece, No Man's Land, Rise of the Batmen, and Murderer/Fugitive would all work, as would something mostly original like BVR or Bad Blood. 

And for a focus piece, both Death Wish and the Doctor Death arc would work, the former having having bith Bruce and Babs in important roles and the latter having Batman as part of the central conflict. Alternatively, mix together elements from her various excellent one and two part stories. Again, not everything has to be a direct adaptation. 

Pwns, we all know you don't care about Cass. Why are you coming to an appreciation thread where we're talking about how Cass could be put ina film just to say, "Nope, never happen. Her stories aren't important." ?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> Not really sure what point you're trying to make. To be included in an ensemble piece, No Man's Land, Rise of the Batmen, and Murderer/Fugitive would all work, as would something mostly original like BVR or Bad Blood. 
> 
> And for a focus piece, both Death Wish and the Doctor Death arc would work, the former having having bith Bruce and Babs in important roles and the latter having Batman as part of the central conflict. Alternatively, mix together elements from her various excellent one and two part stories. Again, not everything has to be a direct adaptation. 
> 
> Pwns, we all know you don't care about Cass. Why are you coming to an appreciation thread where we're talking about how Cass could be put ina film just to say, "Nope, never happen. Her stories aren't important." ?


My point is that none of these stories are comparable to UTRH. Fugitive/Murderer? Lol scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Even the Damian films are based on a combination of Morrison and Snyder runs. I'll give you Rise of the Batmen, it could serve as a sequel to Bad Blood.
These are irrelevant stories, its like asking for a Batman film with 90's Nightwing arcs adapted lol.

I have done nothing to derail the thread or unappreciate the character. Adding a realistic perspective to the discussion should'nt bother you.

----------


## millernumber1

> I have done nothing to derail the thread or unappreciate the character. Adding a realistic perspective to the discussion should'nt bother you.


I fail to see how you are contributing to the appreciation of the character. Your realism always tends towards the direction of "Cass is not a good character and has no good stories." Seriously? We've had good discussions on other topics, but why do you come to this specific thread? How does that appreciate - find the positive aspects of a character and enjoy and celebrate them?

----------


## darkseidpwns

> I fail to see how you are contributing to the appreciation of the character. Your realism always tends towards the direction of "Cass is not a good character and has no good stories." Seriously? We've had good discussions on other topics, but why do you come to this specific thread? How does that appreciate - find the positive aspects of a character and enjoy and celebrate them?


Because I'm interested in this topic, I already acknowledged NML as a potential story. If you want to play it like that then how is a rant on Gotham by Gaslight/Batman films contribute to this thread? Throwing a bunch of ideas here and there and talking about their execution isn't derailing this thread. Do I need to post a pic of Cass with an emoji ? Fine I'll just go  and never come back to this thread ever

----------


## millernumber1

> Because I'm interested in this topic, I already acknowledged NML as a potential story. If you want to play it like that then how is a rant on Gotham by Gaslight/Batman films contribute to this thread? Throwing a bunch of ideas here and there and talking about their execution isn't derailing this thread. Do I need to post a pic of Cass with an emoji ? Fine I'll just go  and never come back to this thread ever


Does Assam's rant on Gotham by Gaslight actively promote a message that they don't appreciate Cass? There's a difference between derailing a thread and actively working against an appreciation thread. You need to actually, maybe, appreciate the character the thread is supposed to appreciate. There's room for criticism, but it has to be constructive. Saying "there's nothing to work with in Cass's characters or stories" doesn't build anything.

----------


## millernumber1

a.jpg

Heroclix Steph and Cass!

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, I've made that point for awhile. Just that one excellent movie was all it took to make Jason one of the most well known and popular BatFamily members. I firmly believe the same thing could happen with Cass. (Its not like she's lacking in amazing stories to take inspiration from.)


The thing is that UTRH seems to be an exception that DC is not really able to replicate, Damian didn't get nearly the same boost from his movies, and I don't think that Bad Blood did anything for Kate and Luke popularity or that Apocalypse really helped Supergirl.

The only similar (or actually even bigger) success is Harley Quinn in the DCAU (even if that was a series and not a single movie).

----------


## Assam

> The thing is that UTRH seems to be an exception that DC is not really able to replicate, Damian didn't get nearly the same boost from his movies, and I don't think that Bad Blood did anything for Kate and Luke popularity or that Apocalypse really helped Supergirl.


I actually don't see it as an exception, because there's a big difference. Like I said, and like I think we all agree, the Under the Red Hood animated film is stupendous. In contrast, the Damian trilogy and Apocalypse aren't very good in my opinion, and Kate, Luke, Kara and Damian (ESPECIALLY in Son of Batman) weren't portrayed as well as Jason was.

----------


## millernumber1

> The thing is that UTRH seems to be an exception that DC is not really able to replicate, Damian didn't get nearly the same boost from his movies, and I don't think that Bad Blood did anything for Kate and Luke popularity or that Apocalypse really helped Supergirl.
> 
> The only similar (or actually even bigger) success is Harley Quinn in the DCAU (even if that was a series and not a single movie).


I'm curious - what's your reasoning behind those conclusions?

----------


## Aahz

> I actually don't see it as an exception, because there's a big difference. Like I said, and like I think we all agree, the Under the Red Hood animated film is stupendous. In contrast, the Damian trilogy and Apocalypse aren't very good in my opinion, and Kate, Luke, Kara and Damian (ESPECIALLY in Son of Batman) weren't portrayed as well as Jason was.


But that's exactly my point most of DCs movies are not on the level of UTRH, and I don't think that it is so easy to make such a movie. 
I mean it is not like they make movies that are bad (or mediocre) on purpose. I'm pretty sure every time they make a movie they want it to be as good as possible.

Of course a Cass movie could be as good as UTRH, but it is more likely that is just on the level of the majority we got in the last years.

----------


## RedBird

> But that's exactly my point most of DCs movies are not on the level of UTRH, and I don't think that it is so easy to make such a movie. 
> I mean it is not like they make movies that are bad (or mediocre) on purpose. I'm pretty sure every time they make a movie they want it to be as good as possible.
> 
> Of course a Cass movie could be as good as UTRH, but it is more likely that is just on the level of the majority we got in the last years.


Yeah thats true. The stars kind of aligned for UTRH and we were fortunate for such a great film on top of great representation. Never the less, any role for Cass in a film could certainly help her exposure. If an original film centered around her is 'too much' as of now, I wouldnt mind if they did the marvel black widow thing, where she got to appear on the sidelines for maybe a few films with enough mystery and intrigue surrounding her till audiences want to know who she is, and how she came to be a sidekick of Batman.

----------


## millernumber1

Although I personally would struggle with a NML adaptation, because I hate hate hate the murder of Sarah Essen-Gordon, I think it would be pretty cool to see if they did a two or more part adaptation, similar to what they did with Dark Knight Returns, and Cass would be a pretty awesome part of that. Of course, I also think that Cass's fight with Shiva in the first three years of her comics, and Bruce Wayne: Murderer, could make pretty strong movies.

But why not an appearance like Katana in Beware the Batman, or something similar?

----------


## adrikito

> a.jpg
> 
> Heroclix Steph and Cass!


I like both figures.

----------


## Aahz

> Although I personally would struggle with a NML adaptation, because I hate hate hate the murder of Sarah Essen-Gordon, I think it would be pretty cool to see if they did a two or more part adaptation, similar to what they did with Dark Knight Returns, and Cass would be a pretty awesome part of that. Of course, I also think that Cass's fight with Shiva in the first three years of her comics, and Bruce Wayne: Murderer, could make pretty strong movies.
> 
> But why not an appearance like Katana in Beware the Batman, or something similar?


I don't think that you could adapt No Man's Land even as a 2 parter. This is way Longer than Dark Knight Returns. And No Man's Land isn't even a real story arc, it is more a change of the setting that is used to tell lots of different stories. If you really would like to make a (2 part) movie out of it. You had probably like 80%-90% (ormabe even more) of the source material, and that would probably include the whole Cass subplot. 

Bruce Wayne: Murderer is on the other hand probaly something, where you could take the premise to make a movie out of it (the story is afaik still twice as long as DKR), but honestly I don't remember how big Cass part in the story was.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't think that you could adapt No Man's Land even as a 2 parter. This is way Longer than Dark Knight Returns. And No Man's Land isn't even a real story arc, it is more a change of the setting that is used to tell lots of different stories. If you really would like to make a (2 part) movie out of it. You had probably like 80%-90% (ormabe even more) of the source material, and that would probably include the whole Cass subplot. 
> 
> Bruce Wayne: Murderer is on the other hand probaly something, where you could take the premise to make a movie out of it (the story is afaik still twice as long as DKR), but honestly I don't remember how big Cass part in the story was.


The thing about Bruce Wayne: Murderer, is that a ton of the stuff that makes it so long is filler arc stuff - random zombie mad scientists, etc. If you just stuck to the actual murder mystery, it would be pretty lean, I think.

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## Assam

> I don't think that you could adapt No Man's Land even as a 2 parter. This is way Longer than Dark Knight Returns. And No Man's Land isn't even a real story arc, it is more a change of the setting that is used to tell lots of different stories. If you really would like to make a (2 part) movie out of it. You had probably like 80%-90% (ormabe even more) of the source material, and that would probably include the whole Cass subplot. 
> 
> Bruce Wayne: Murderer is on the other hand probaly something, where you could take the premise to make a movie out of it (the story is afaik still twice as long as DKR), but honestly I don't remember how big Cass part in the story was.


An NML movie would be rather difficult unless all that was taken was the premise and a focus on a couple of the plotlines. Man it would have been great if that NML animated series had actually gotten made. 

Yeah, Murderer/Fugitive isn't exactly a famous storyline, but its still really good, has a good premise and while still long, is more easily condensed than NML because of how much of it is straight filler, and hey, if Gotham by Gaslight can get an adaptation, I'd say anything is fair game. Cass played a decent sized role (Plus there's the fact that David was the one behind everything and Bruce taking in Cass was the catalyst for the story), appearing in just a few others books for the event. Her tie-ins in her own book though were fantastic, including the issues where Cass figured out Batman was Bruce Wayne (People always forget she figured that out herself), a really fun (But also sad) team-up with Steph where the two make a big discovery in the mystery, and the ONLY time, to this day, Cass has teamed up with Dick AS Nightwing when no other heroes were around. (Seriously, every other time they've met, they either weren't working, Dick wasn't Nightwing, a bunch of others were present, or both were being written horribly out of character and Dick hated her.)

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## Aahz

> The thing about Bruce Wayne: Murderer, is that a ton of the stuff that makes it so long is filler arc stuff - random zombie mad scientists, etc. If you just stuck to the actual murder mystery, it would be pretty lean, I think.


Thats why I think you could make a movie out of it, but it's a long time ago that I read it, so I'm not really sure how much you had to rewrite the murder mystery part to make a good story out of it, or if the murder mystery part even makes for a good story on it's own.

I mean from what I remember you had the death and every Batfamily member being shocked about it in beginning, than you had Bruce breaking out of prison acting like a jerk and doing anything except trying to solve the murder for the majority of the story and than a pretty lame resolution [SPOILER]that was from what I remember just it was David Cain because no else because he was the only one who was capable enough to do it, or something like that[/SPOILER].

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## Frontier

I really think the easiest way to include Cass in an animated movie is to just feature her as a member of the 'Tec team that Batman's set-up, and go from there. 



> The thing is that UTRH seems to be an exception that DC is not really able to replicate, Damian didn't get nearly the same boost from his movies, and I don't think that Bad Blood did anything for Kate and Luke popularity or that Apocalypse really helped Supergirl.
> 
> The only similar (or actually even bigger) success is Harley Quinn in the DCAU (even if that was a series and not a single movie).


I think it's arguable. 

I would say that the boost wasn't as big as for Jason but that featuring those characters in those movies (and in Damian's case, multiple) did bump up their visibility to a significant degree, especially Batwoman given it was not only her debut in animation but also a prominent role for an LGBT heroine. Same with Batwing. 

I don't think _Apocalypse_ needed to really boost Supergirl that much given she dates back to _Superman: The Animated Series_. She was also in _Superman: Unbound_. 



> But why not an appearance like Katana in Beware the Batman, or something similar?


I always thought Cass was the most likely character to become Batgirl on _Beware the Batman_, had it continued.

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## millernumber1

> Thats why I think you could make a movie out of it, but it's a long time ago that I read it, so I'm not really sure how much you had to rewrite the murder mystery part to make a good story out of it, or if the murder mystery part even makes for a good story on it's own.
> 
> I mean from what I remember you had the death and every Batfamily member being shocked about it in beginning, than you had Bruce breaking out of prison acting like a jerk and doing anything except trying to solve the murder for the majority of the story and than a pretty lame resolution [SPOILER]that was from what I remember just it was David Cain because no else because he was the only one who was capable enough to do it, or something like that[/SPOILER].


I think it's more that Cass's nerve strike was part of the reason they figured out who did it, because she learned it from Cain. I don't precisely remember, because I think I tend to agree that the resolution of the mystery itself wasn't nearly as good as the setup and reaction.




> I really think the easiest way to include Cass in an animated movie is to just feature her as a member of the 'Tec team that Batman's set-up, and go from there. 
> 
> I always thought Cass was the most likely character to become Batgirl on _Beware the Batman_, had it continued.


I like that idea. Given that the Tec storyline is still ongoing, and you can't really do Rise of the Batmen as a standalone movie until we've figured out what the resolution of the Colony/Shadows/Tim arcs are all figured out, though, I'm not sure it'll happen soon. Tec's first arc is popular, but nowhere near as popular as Court of Owls, which is probably the fastest I've seen a storyline get adapted for the animated films.

Yeah - I didn't really love Beware the Batman, but I liked the setup a lot, and the designs were fun. It's a shame it got canned.

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## The Cool Thatguy

I don't think Cass really needs a No Man's Land arc for a proper introduction. Seems like overkill.

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## Carabas

> The thing about Bruce Wayne: Murderer, is that a ton of the stuff that makes it so long is filler arc stuff - random zombie mad scientists, etc. If you just stuck to the actual murder mystery, it would be pretty lean, I think.


Well, see, the actual murder mystery is not that important or relevant to the story.
Murderer/Fugitive is the story about what happens when Batman decides Bruce Wayne is more trouble than he's worth. 

The actual murder mystery is incredibly relevant to Cassandra Cain though as it is completely about her even though she is barely in it.

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## Aahz

> I think it's arguable. 
> 
> I would say that the boost wasn't as big as for Jason but that featuring those characters in those movies (and in Damian's case, multiple) did bump up their visibility to a significant degree, especially Batwoman given it was not only her debut in animation but also a prominent role for an LGBT heroine. Same with Batwing. 
> 
> I don't think _Apocalypse_ needed to really boost Supergirl that much given she dates back to _Superman: The Animated Series_. She was also in _Superman: Unbound_.


- Damian is imo more popular because of the comics than because of the movies, he might got some fans from it but a lot of people don't like the animated version (at least in Son of Batman and Batman vs. Robin, it got imo better with the later movies)
- with Kate it is similar, she is popular for 52 and her solo stories, but I don't think that it really brought her more fans
- and Luke simply isn't popular
- and the diversity/representation stuff doesn't have anything to do with the discussion if they got a big boost from it or not

- Supergirl is maybe not a good example, since she had really much more appearances




> I always thought Cass was the most likely character to become Batgirl on _Beware the Batman_, had it continued.


With Katana and Barbara already being on the show?

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## millernumber1

> Well, see, the actual murder mystery is not that important or relevant to the story.
> Murderer/Fugitive is the story about what happens when Batman decides Bruce Wayne is more trouble than he's worth. 
> 
> The actual murder mystery is incredibly relevant to Cassandra Cain though as it is completely about her even though she is barely in it.


A bummer. I'm a big mystery buff, and found that part the most interesting (as well as the reaction of the Batfamily). I mean, we all knew that Batman didn't do it, but it was the feelings of his family that really drew me into the story, and those are all tied more to the murder plot than the thought experiment about Batman vs. Bruce Wayne (which I find incredibly uninteresting anyway).

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## The Cool Thatguy

> Well, see, the actual murder mystery is not that important or relevant to the story.
> Murderer/Fugitive is the story about what happens when Batman decides Bruce Wayne is more trouble than he's worth. 
> 
> The actual murder mystery is incredibly relevant to Cassandra Cain though as it is completely about her even though she is barely in it.


"Barely in it."

Sadly, that describes a good chunk of her time in the Batclan in terms of development

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## Frontier

> - Damian is imo more popular because of the comics than because of the movies, he might got some fans from it but a lot of people don't like the animated version (at least in Son of Batman and Batman vs. Robin, it got imo better with the later movies)
> - with Kate it is similar, she is popular for 52 and her solo stories, but I don't think that it really brought her more fans
> - and Luke simply isn't popular
> - and the diversity/representation stuff doesn't have anything to do with the discussion if they got a big boost from it or not
> 
> - Supergirl is maybe not a good example, since she had really much more appearances


I mean, I think it's fair to say that a character's popularity does rely considerably on the comics, though media appearances can certainly help in that regard, even in Damian's case where his portrayal is somewhat divisive (I agree it did improve over time). 




> With Katana and Barbara already being on the show?


With the fact that they were pushing Barabra as Oracle and featured Shiva in a fairly prominent role.

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## Assam

Started thinking about something, and the idea just evolved. Curious to hear thoughts on this, and be aware I don't think this is the absolute best option possible or anything: 

Since DC won't let her be Batgirl for dumb reasons (You think anyone remembers that "Batgirl" was originally her name, and Cassandra came later from Babs?) this is an idea for what to do with Cass:

 When it eventually comes to a close, Basil's redemption arc ends tragically, getting one last heroic moment before he's completely overtaken by his condition.  Cass is completely distraught, saying goodbye to her friend and promising she'll find a way to save him. Bruce, realizing how much he's come to care for her, adopts her, and she does what she should have done after League of Shadows, and drops the Orphan name. In its place, she becomes *Claymore*.  

Claymore works on four levels. 

1) A claymore is a type of sword. Cass was built to be a weapon.

2) “Clay”: In tribute to her friend, wanting to remember Clayface as a hero for all the good he did. (Maybe we see some asshole civilians talking about how they're not surprised the “freak” went bad again, maybe even using the line a lot of Cass haters used to defend EvilCass “A tiger can't change its stripes”) Partially though, its also as a reminder. She's not alone. Not an Orphan. She has friends. A family. And she's never losing _any_ of them again.

3) “More” Because she's NOT simply the weapon she was built to be. As she already said in 'Tec, she is more.

4) Because I can actually picture a superhero comic with the name Claymore, unlike Orphan.

Its not perfect (This would be the 2nd time Cass would be taking up a name in tribute to a man, and quite frankly I DON'T want to lose Basil) but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. 

Ideally, this would then lead into a solo book where, as I've thought of  before, Cass's “mission statement” along with her usual duties would be to find a way to save Basil, with other things often causing her to go off task. I'd have this as sort of status quo for a time until the Clayface storyline reaches a natural endpoint, where Cass DOES manage to save Basil, and a now powerless Basil becomes part of her supporting cast. (Oh, and one of the OTHER Clayfaces gets introduced in one of the Batbooks so no one feels the need to undo what happened with Basil.) 

Like I said, there are problems with this idea (Plus its admittedly kind of cheesy, but hey, superheroes), but I can't say I wouldn't be happy if something similar to this ended up playing out.

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## millernumber1

I like it. You should fic it!  :Smile:

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## Assam

> I like it. You should fic it!


Glad you like it, but if I do fic it, it won't be for awhile. There's a reason I didn't end up following up on the fic chapter I sent you awhile ago, despite being mostly happy with it. Namely that I have major procrastination issues, and that's bad enough when it comes to writing my web serial, but add on wanting to work on my first comic and school starting up again in a couple months, and I don't have the time.

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## Carabas

> "Barely in it."
> 
> Sadly, that describes a good chunk of her time in the Batclan in terms of development


To be fair here, the entire Bat-family was barely in it, except in their own tie-in books. Cass was in it about as much as Nightwing and Robin.

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## Carabas

> A bummer. I'm a big mystery buff, and found that part the most interesting (as well as the reaction of the Batfamily). I mean, we all knew that Batman didn't do it, but it was the feelings of his family that really drew me into the story, and those are all tied more to the murder plot


I thought it was a pretty well done mystery, and the frame-up (and Batman's cold reaction to the whole thing) was good enough to make Tim Drake have doubts. 




> than the thought experiment about Batman vs. Bruce Wayne (which I find incredibly uninteresting anyway).


Well, what was nice about it is that the conclusion went 100% the other way than these things usually go, realising that there is zero difference between Batman and Bruce Wayne and embracing his humanity.

The message was that grimbats is not how Batman is supposed to be.

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## millernumber1

> I thought it was a pretty well done mystery, and the frame-up (and Batman's cold reaction to the whole thing) was good enough to make Tim Drake have doubts. 
> 
> Well, what was nice about it is that the conclusion went 100% the other way than these things usually go, realising that there is zero difference between Batman and Bruce Wayne and embracing his humanity.
> 
> The message was that grimbats is not how Batman is supposed to be.


I did like that element of the story, even if it wasn't really followed up on for many, many years.  :Smile:

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## Carabas

> I did like that element of the story, even if it wasn't really followed up on for many, many years.


It was followed up on at all?

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## millernumber1

> It was followed up on at all?


Well, Batman did eventually become less dark and closed off. When he adopted Cass, and during most of Morrison's run.

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## Carabas

> Well, Batman did eventually become less dark and closed off. When he adopted Cass, and during most of Morrison's run.


That wasn't follow-up. That was trying to lighten Batman again (and again it did not stick). Follow-up is when the thing you're following up on is actually referenced.

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## millernumber1

> That wasn't follow-up. That was trying to lighten Batman again (and again it did not stick). Follow-up is when the thing you're following up on is actually referenced.


True. Dunno. Maybe I just live in hope that people will remember.  :Smile:

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## Carabas

> True. Dunno. Maybe I just live in hope that people will remember.


Oh, people remember allright. Just not people the people at DC who decide on Batman's direction.

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## Jovos2099

Will bruce ever officially adopt Cassandra again?

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## Assam

> Will bruce ever officially adopt Cassandra again?


We can only hope so.

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## millernumber1

> Oh, people remember allright. Just not people the people at DC who decide on Batman's direction.


Heh. Actually, the person who seems to remember it most is actually JT4. He brought it up a LOT during Batman and Robin Eternal (which...actually makes the whole "did Bruce murder a kid's parents" thing make more sense now that I think about it. Even though that was incredibly stupid.  :Smile:  ).




> We can only hope so.


I do! I do believe in Cassandra, I do, I do!  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

To follow up from my post in the Steph thread, here's what Chris Conroy, current editor of Tec, says her swimsuit choice would be for a swimsuit issue of Tec: https://twitter.com/dyfl/status/885004037686534145

_Cass: demure one-piece, very wide-brimmed hat. Azrael: doesn't take his shirt off._

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## Assam

> Ahaha. I love Luke, but Steph is always best in my eyes at all the contests.
> 
> Except "being Bruce's favorite."  Cass has that one locked down.


Oh, unquestionably so. And its frustrating how so many writers after her solo ended didn't get this (I know its because EvilCass was happening but Bruce not taking Cass with him, Tim and Dick after Infinite Crisis was BS) and even some writers now don't.  

Seriously though, between his general treatment of her (even if he needed Babs to set him straight a few times), all the BatDork moments,  the fact that he was canonically grooming her to be his successor, and the fact that he gave her 3 separate personal batcaves, it paints it a pretty clear picture. Being "Bruce's Princess" really isn't something fanfic writers just made up. 

Also, there's this gem of a scene: 

cassplane.jpg

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## millernumber1

And the one where they communicate underwater. That was priceless.

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## Assam

> And the one where they communicate underwater. That was priceless.


Totally. There are quite a few amazing diamonds in the rough within the Horrocks run, but that's possibly the single best moment.

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## Rac7d*

> We can only hope so.


the adoption agency will ask so where is your 13 year old son?

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## Lorendiac

> Will bruce ever officially adopt Cassandra again?





> We can only hope so.


Several years ago, back when DC still hosted discussion forums on its own website, I saw someone set forth an interesting theory about that adoption. 

His idea went this way: "Bruce had already legally adopted Tim. Now he's legally adopting Cassandra. Why did somebody on DC's editorial staff finally decide to let this happen? Simple! To *kill* any hope we fans had that Tim and Cassandra would someday become a romantic couple! Now that they are legally the children of the same man, it would be incest for them to hook up!" 

Interesting theory. I have _no idea_ whether or not it was correct. But it stuck in my memory.

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## Assam

> Several years ago, back when DC still hosted discussion forums on its own website, I saw someone set forth an interesting theory about that adoption. 
> 
> His idea went this way: "Bruce had already legally adopted Tim. Now he's legally adopting Cassandra. Why did somebody on DC's editorial staff finally decide to let this happen? Simple! To *kill* any hope we fans had that Tim and Cassandra would someday become a romantic couple! Now that they are legally the children of the same man, it would be incest for them to hook up!" 
> 
> Interesting theory. I have _no idea_ whether or not it was correct. But it stuck in my memory.


Yeah, I've seen that theory before and I don't buy it. For a few reasons, but I don't need to get into them.

 I will say though that personally, while I see Cass and Tim as bros and I will never understand why people ship them, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with adopted siblings hooking up. Seemingly, neither do the writers of the Flash CW show. 




> the adoption agency will ask so where is your 13 year old son?


Bruce: "At a boarding school in California. very exclusive. Only 5 students attend."

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## millernumber1

> Bruce: "At a boarding school in California. very exclusive. Only 5 students attend."


"SAME PLACE HE WAS A YEAR AGO (when he died)  :Wink: "

That being said, I really, really anti-ship Tim and Cass. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

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## Assam

> That being said, I really, really anti-ship Tim and Cass. Just doesn't make any sense to me.


Right?! I don't understand it at all. Much like with Steph, Cass's relationship with Tim was slowly built up and then paid of expertly. Once Tim stopped being intimidated by her and the two became friends, every non-Beechen appearance of the two very clearly displayed a close friendship or sibling-like relationship.

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## WontonGirl

> Yeah, I've seen that theory before and I don't buy it. For a few reasons, but I don't need to get into them.
> 
>  I will say though that personally, while I see Cass and Tim as bros and I will never understand why people ship them, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with adopted siblings hooking up. Seemingly, neither do the writers of the Flash CW show. 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce: "At a boarding school in California. very exclusive. Only 5 students attend."


Joe West didn't adopt Barry. If that's what you are talking about. He just took him in and raised him.

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## Assam

> Joe West didn't adopt Barry. If that's what you are talking about. He just took him in and raised him.


I'm aware, but it really doesn't matter. How exactly does being  adopted  make things more squicky than having the same legal guardian?

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## millernumber1

> Right?! I don't understand it at all. Much like with Steph, Cass's relationship with Tim was slowly built up and then paid of expertly. Once Tim stopped being intimidated by her and the two became friends, every non-Beechen appearance of the two very clearly displayed a close friendship or sibling-like relationship.


So, mostly Red Robin: Cass Saves Tim's Virtue, and Gates of Gotham: Cass Is The Most Awesome?  :Wink:

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## Assam

> So, mostly Red Robin: Cass Saves Tim's Virtue, and Gates of Gotham: Cass Is The Most Awesome?


Well there's those, and also the excellent Fresh Blood crossover, the few other times they guest starred in each other's books, and assorted other issues.

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## millernumber1

> Well there's those, and also the excellent Fresh Blood crossover, the few other times they guest starred in each other's books, and assorted other issues.


Oh, yeah. I was thinking a bit later, I guess.  :Smile:

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## Assam

(NOTE: This post is for venting. Not trying to start a fight and not trying to make any point other than what's written here. If that was my intention, this would be going in the Controversial Batfamily Opinions thread.) 

So I've gone on  a few times about how DC's ableism pisses me off. But, much as I've tried to deny it, I think its pretty clear that it's pretty deep-rooted in the fandom as well, even if just subconsciously. 

Why the double-standard we hear so often that "Babs totally should have become Batgirl again...What? No! Why would I want Dick back as Robin?"? Why are Cass and Steph seen as "imposters" or "superfluous", but every Robin is vital? Hell, why are there even so many Steph fans who don't care about Cass and didn't care if she returned? 

Because Babs was put in a wheelchair. Because despite the fact that she was more developed, important and empowering than ever before as Oracle, people still saw it as a mistake which needed to be undone, because in their eyes, being disabled made her less of a hero. And Cass and Steph were just getting in the way of her inevitable return. And the reason so many Babs and Steph fans alike don't like Cass and/or find her boring and unrelatable (While sometimes just because they've only read her Post-2006 appearances) is also a matter of her disabilities. Sexism and racism are also on display in many cases, but this really does stand out to me pretty blatantly.

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## Rogue Star

Cain was Batgirl when I first started reading comics and hers was the first comic book I ever bought. She will always be my favorite Batgirl... BUT when I think of THE Batgirl I have to give that honor to Barbara.  I guess I don't spend enough time among fans of the Batfamily to be impacted by the shade thrown Cassandra's way.

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## Assam

Cass essayist Rena (Someone who my quote probably applies to equally) was asked who she'd most like to see write Cass. Of her 5 answers, two of them were names which we'd thrown around here before (Valentine and Bennett), but three of them I thought were interesting. 

-Rucka, who while Cass has appeared in their writing, has never been the focus. Rucka is just a spectacular writer in general and would obviously be a good pick for someone to expand on the Cass and Kate dynamic. (Maybe also introduce Cass to Renee?) 

- G. Willow Wilson, who Rena pointed out that her claim to fame is about a teenage girl of color in a book with stylized art. And of course, like Rucka (And really most  of Rena's picks) she's a terrific writer. 

-And Rena's #1 pick was Tom Taylor, citing the facts that he seems to have a great deal of knowledge and respect for the greater DCU and the excellent character work he's done over on _All-New Wolverine_. I would have zero issues with Taylor writing Cass personally. Some additional notes about him are that he's also the writer of Justice League/Power Rangers (Which I think is pretty dang good) and that he's already worked with someone who loves drawing Cass, Marcio Takara, several times in the past. 

What do y'all think of these picks?

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## millernumber1

> Cass essayist Rena (Someone who my quote probably applies to equally) was asked who she'd most like to see write Cass. Of her 5 answers, two of them were names which we'd thrown around here before (Valentine and Bennett), but three of them I thought were interesting. 
> 
> -Rucka, who while Cass has appeared in their writing, has never been the focus. Rucka is just a spectacular writer in general and would obviously be a good pick for someone to expand on the Cass and Kate dynamic. (Maybe also introduce Cass to Renee?) 
> 
> - G. Willow Wilson, who Rena pointed out that her claim to fame is about a teenage girl of color in a book with stylized art. And of course, like Rucka (And really most  of Rena's picks) she's a terrific writer. 
> 
> -And Rena's #1 pick was Tom Taylor, citing the facts that he seems to have a great deal of knowledge and respect for the greater DCU and the excellent character work he's done over on _All-New Wolverine_. I would have zero issues with Taylor writing Cass personally. Some additional notes about him are that he's also the writer of Justice League/Power Rangers (Which I think is pretty dang good) and that he's already worked with someone who loves drawing Cass, Marcio Takara, several times in the past. 
> 
> What do y'all think of these picks?


Rucka would do well, but given that he's had the chance several times to write Cass, and almost never does, I don't think he's likely to do so. She's not on his shortlist - Diana, Helena, Renee, and Kate.

Wilson - I don't really like her work, as I don't think she's very good on long term structure or pacing at all. She's great at really fun moments, but her stories really, really don't connect with me beyond those moments. Plus, I'm pretty sure she (and Taylor) aren't really on DC's radar, for whatever reasons (they might be exclusive?) Furthermore, I don't see Wilson being interested in Cass personally, given her general writing wheelhouse.

Taylor would be very good, other than the company thing (though he is writing the Injustice stuff again, isn't he? So he's quite possible). I think he could do a really great job, though I think it would be a lighter story for Cass (I haven't read deeply into his Injustice stuff, though, and that gets pretty dark). I would hope he could do a good job with getting his stuff done without event interference, since his Superior Iron-Man was a trainwreck because it had to end so unexpectedly. He's also the only one of these three that I think has a chance at being interested in writing for Cass.

I think Valentine would be comparable to Taylor in terms of skill, and I think has a really great sense of the tone that would be appropriate for her, based on her issues of Batman and Robin Eternal. Her problem is that I don't think she's really super interested in coming back to DC.

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## Assam

> Rucka would do well, but given that he's had the chance several times to write Cass, and almost never does, I don't think he's likely to do so. She's not on his shortlist - Diana, Helena, Renee, and Kate.
> 
> Wilson - I don't really like her work, as I don't think she's very good on long term structure or pacing at all. She's great at really fun moments, but her stories really, really don't connect with me beyond those moments. Plus, I'm pretty sure she (and Taylor) aren't really on DC's radar, for whatever reasons (they might be exclusive?) Furthermore, I don't see Wilson being interested in Cass personally, given her general writing wheelhouse.
> 
> Taylor would be very good, other than the company thing (though he is writing the Injustice stuff again, isn't he? So he's quite possible). I think he could do a really great job, though I think it would be a lighter story for Cass (I haven't read deeply into his Injustice stuff, though, and that gets pretty dark). I would hope he could do a good job with getting his stuff done without event interference, since his Superior Iron-Man was a trainwreck because it had to end so unexpectedly. He's also the only one of these three that I think has a chance at being interested in writing for Cass.
> 
> I think Valentine would be comparable to Taylor in terms of skill, and I think has a really great sense of the tone that would be appropriate for her, based on her issues of Batman and Robin Eternal. Her problem is that I don't think she's really super interested in coming back to DC.


These were just dream picks so I guess "Desire to write them" wasn't really taken into account. You're more than likely right about Rucka just not wanting to write her. Wilson...I dunno, writers have more than one tone they can write and more than one type of character they like. I think she'd potentially be interested (In this case, you're probably right about her just not being on DC's radar though.) Also, surprised you're not a fan of Ms. Marvel. How far did you get in it? 

I agree that Taylor is the most likely of the three to be interested. While Cass's Batgirl book never got _as_ light as certain parts of _All-New Wolverine_ are, there were still tons of fun moments. Taylor has displayed an ability to blend serious conflicts and atmosphere with  fun moments and character interactions very well. I've only read two issues of Injustice 2 (Or Injustice at all for that matter), the ones with the Blue and Gold, and while I was pissed that Ted died *again*, the pathos was still spot-on there, as its been multiple times in ANW.

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## Frontier

I think Marjorie Liu would be cool to see write a Cass book  :Smile: .

I don't think she's all that interested in writing mainstream comics again though.

----------


## millernumber1

> These were just dream picks so I guess "Desire to write them" wasn't really taken into account. You're more than likely right about Rucka just not wanting to write her. Wilson...I dunno, writers have more than one tone they can write and more than one type of character they like. I think she'd potentially be interested (In this case, you're probably right about her just not being on DC's radar though.) Also, surprised you're not a fan of Ms. Marvel. How far did you get in it? 
> 
> I agree that Taylor is the most likely of the three to be interested. While Cass's Batgirl book never got _as_ light as certain parts of _All-New Wolverine_ are, there were still tons of fun moments. Taylor has displayed an ability to blend serious conflicts and atmosphere with  fun moments and character interactions very well. I've only read two issues of Injustice 2 (Or Injustice at all for that matter), the ones with the Blue and Gold, and while I was pissed that Ted died *again*, the pathos was still spot-on there, as its been multiple times in ANW.


I have read every issue of her series from her creation to Civil War II, then I stopped. So the first six tradesish. The problems, as I said, were mostly structural - the story just seems very badly paced to me.

I think Taylor is also strong with the concept of legacy, and does really good jobs with character interactions, both of which I think are really key for Cass.

----------


## Frontier

I think Wilson would probably be a better fit for Steph then Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think Wilson would probably be a better fit for Steph then Cass.


Maybe...but again, I don't really see it. Just checked her complete writing history on Comic Vine, and I just don't see an interest in her taking on someone like Steph or Cass. Maybe moreso Cass.

Someone I think might be pretty fun would be Christopher Priest, based on his talent in general, and also the way he's writing Ravager in Deathstroke.

----------


## Assam

> I have read every issue of her series from her creation to Civil War II, then I stopped. So the first six tradesish. The problems, as I said, were mostly structural - the story just seems very badly paced to me.


Fair enough. I've only read each issue once but the pacing seemed fine to me. 




> I think Taylor is also strong with the concept of legacy, and does really good jobs with character interactions, both of which I think are really key for Cass.


More good points. Plus, while Laura and Cass may be completely different characters at their core, the surface similarities are very clear. 




> Someone I think might be pretty fun would be Christopher Priest, based on his talent in general, and also the way he's writing Ravager in Deathstroke.


Still wish we could have gotten Cass and Rose as friendly rivals, bonding over their crappy dads, their unique ability to actually keep up with each other in a fight, and their emotional maturity in comparison to their peers. But no, they got turned evil one after the other and once both face-heel's were over with, they were both written horribly out of character for the remainder of Pre-FP (Save a few stories for Cass), then Rose got even more screwed up while Cass was erased, and I have zero idea if now that they're both apparently being written well if the relationship still makes sense. Considering Rose is working with her father, I'd guess not.

----------


## millernumber1

> Fair enough. I've only read each issue once but the pacing seemed fine to me. 
> 
> Still wish we could have gotten Cass and Rose as friendly rivals, bonding over their crappy dads, their unique ability to actually keep up with each other in a fight, and their emotional maturity in comparison to their peers. But no, they got turned evil one after the other and once both face-heel's were over with, they were both written horribly out of character for the remainder of Pre-FP (Save a few stories for Cass), then Rose got even more screwed up while Cass was erased, and I have zero idea if now that they're both apparently being written well if the relationship still makes sense. Considering Rose is working with her father, I'd guess not.


I blitzed through the whole series in two sitting last year, which is probably why the pacing bothered me so much.

Pretty much everything about Rose in the n52 was erased in Rebirth (as was almost everything about Slade, because almost every single character that's being used right now was killed off in the n52). I'm almost positive that none of Slade's drugging of Rose is currently canon. And she's really conflicted about working with him right now.

----------


## Assam

So this is really small potatoes compared to a lot of other things wrong with Cass in the current continuity (Most of which has nothing to do with characterization), but there's something I realized that bugs me. She went to a Wayne function, she went to a ballet (off panel still not over that  :Mad: ) with Kate and Bruce...basically telling us that she knows Bruce is Batman and that, unlike in the good continuity, she didn't get to figure out that Bruce was Batman by herself.

What made me think of this was I found an interview I hadn't read from right before 'Tec started, where Tynion said that Kate having figured out Bruce's identity was evidence that she was fit to lead the team. Cue me slamming my head against the table. 

This also got me thinking that much like Cass's sassy side, I'd like to see more of her intelligence. I don't know how the idea that she's the least intelligent Bat got started (Oh wait, yes I do  :Mad: ), but she's repeatedly shown to be really dang bright.

----------


## millernumber1

I don't think Tynion thinks Cass is dumb - but I think it's tricky for someone with plotting weaknesses to write intelligence in a non-verbal way. Tynion is a very verbal writer - he loves his dialogue and exposition, and people complained about it in Tec 950, because he has SO MUCH narration to give us Cass's point of view.

I'm a very verbal reader, so I really appreciate his writing generally. But I can see the problem when it comes to a character like Cass.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think Tynion thinks Cass is dumb - but I think it's tricky for someone with plotting weaknesses to write intelligence in a non-verbal way. Tynion is a very verbal writer - he loves his dialogue and exposition, and people complained about it in Tec 950, because he has SO MUCH narration to give us Cass's point of view.
> 
> I'm a very verbal reader, so I really appreciate his writing generally. But I can see the problem when it comes to a character like Cass.


I agree that Tynion probably doesn't hold that opinion, I just wish he showed that more. Like you said though, between his style and his biggest weakness, it isn't the easiest thing to do. Not to mention the fact that she's in a team book with Batman, a designated "leader" and two designated "tech" guys.

----------


## Assam

CASS IS GOING TO BE APPEARING ALONGSIDE THE 'TEC TEAM IN RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS! This is not a drill! She is actually being allowed to appear outside her own book! Don't F**K this up Lobdell. You've been doing really well so far since Rebirth; I'm counting on you here. 

CRYING.jpg

Oh, and _of course_ she and Basil are fighting Bizarro. It's tradition at this point. If this isn't a case of "Covers Always Lie", this will be the 2nd time Cass has fought a Bizarro, and the 4th time she's fought a Super in general. (Okay, _3rd_ since taunting Kon for multiple issues and then tracking him down across the country to make out doesn't really count as a fight.  :Stick Out Tongue: ) 

Of course, this happy news doesn't make me any less sure that based on his comment from a few weeks ago, Tom King won't be including Cass among the members of the Family who will be appearing in the upcoming arc.  :Frown:

----------


## rev516

BATMAN #33
Written by TOM KING
Art and cover by JOELLE JONES
Variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL
“A DREAM OF ME” part 1! Following his marriage proposal to Catwoman, Batman leaves Gotham City on a quest of renewal and redemption. As he travels and fights, he encounters members of his family—each disturbed by Batman’s journey, each ready to stand in his way, each ready to push back against Batman’s stubborn determination to evolve into something better than a superhero.
On sale OCTOBER 18 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

He'll be fighting them, @Assam

----------


## Assam

> BATMAN #33
> Written by TOM KING
> Art and cover by JOELLE JONES
> Variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL
> “A DREAM OF ME” part 1! Following his marriage proposal to Catwoman, Batman leaves Gotham City on a quest of renewal and redemption. As he travels and fights, he encounters members of his family—each disturbed by Batman’s journey, each ready to stand in his way, each ready to push back against Batman’s stubborn determination to evolve into something better than a superhero.
> On sale OCTOBER 18 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T
> 
> He'll be fighting them, @Assam


My mistake....still positive he isn't gonna include her though, even though understanding the mission better than anyone is a _key_ part of her character.

Also, when are you posting your Vamp AU?

----------


## rev516

It'll be up later on tonight  :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree that Tynion probably doesn't hold that opinion, I just wish he showed that more. Like you said though, between his style and his biggest weakness, it isn't the easiest thing to do. Not to mention the fact that she's in a team book with Batman, a designated "leader" and two designated "tech" guys.


We can but hope! But I'm pretty happy with what's going on so far. (I'm also, apparently, the only person who really liked League of Shadows.  :Smile:  )




> CASS IS GOING TO BE APPEARING ALONGSIDE THE 'TEC TEAM IN RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS! This is not a drill! She is actually being allowed to appear outside her own book! Don't F**K this up Lobdell. You've been doing really well so far since Rebirth; I'm counting on you here. 
> 
> Oh, and _of course_ she and Basil are fighting Bizarro. It's tradition at this point. If this isn't a case of "Covers Always Lie", this will be the 2nd time Cass has fought a Bizarro, and the 4th time she's fought a Super in general. (Okay, _3rd_ since taunting Kon for multiple issues and then tracking him down across the country to make out doesn't really count as a fight. ) 
> 
> Of course, this happy news doesn't make me any less sure that based on his comment from a few weeks ago, Tom King won't be including Cass among the members of the Family who will be appearing in the upcoming arc.


This makes me actually planning to read Red Hood for the first time since Robin War. Wow! Really awesome to see Cass show up on the cover of another title! (Do you have the links to the King tweets? Or did we already talk about those?)

----------


## Assam

> . (I'm also, apparently, the only person who really liked League of Shadows.  )


Not true. While I can acknowledge that on a technical level, it falls below the other major arcs (Tynion's primary weaknesses as a writer on full display here) I still LOVE the arc because of how well Cass's character arc was executed. 




> (Do you have the links to the King tweets? Or did we already talk about those?)


Yeah, we talked about it, but they weren't tweets. King apparently said in a podcast that he doesn't feel Bruce trusts someone like Cass as much as Dick and Babs, making me very salty.

----------


## yohyoi

> This makes me actually planning to read Red Hood for the first time since Robin War. Wow! Really awesome to see Cass show up on the cover of another title! (Do you have the links to the King tweets? Or did we already talk about those?)


You should have been reading RHatO since Rebirth started. Bizarro alone is enough of a reason. He is starting to become a favorite of mine.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Yeah, we talked about it, but they weren't tweets. King apparently said in a podcast that he doesn't feel Bruce trusts someone like Cass as much as Dick and Babs, making me very salty.


In fairness, Cass is more a coworker here than a close member of the family like she was in the previous canon.

----------


## Assam

> In fairness, Cass is more a coworker here than a close member of the family like she was in the previous canon.


I disagree. While they might not be AS close currently as they were in the good continuity, LoS showed there's definitely more to their relationship than say Bruce' with Luke, JPV and Basil.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I disagree. While they might not be AS close currently as they were in the good continuity, LoS showed there's definitely more to their relationship than say Bruce' with Luke, JPV and Basil.


That's because they're grown adults who don't need the emotional support Cass does, and this incarnation of Batman has some emotional maturity that was missing in the Dixon era (I still say people underestimate how screwed up her relationship with Bruce was, long before OYL)

----------


## Assam

> That's because they're grown adults who don't need the emotional support Cass does, and this incarnation of Batman has some emotional maturity that was missing in the Dixon era (I still say people underestimate how screwed up her relationship with Bruce was, long before OYL)


Exactly. And the fact that he _is_ giving her the emotional support she needs adds to how close they are. 

Their relationship was definitely screwed up, but not in a bad way. Bruce didn't know what he was doing, thinking that having her be his "perfect soldier" was all she needed, and it wasn't a matter of bad writing, so much as a bad perspective, as his ignorance toward the situation was balanced out by Babs's warm affection for Cass. The reason Batgirl #50 is so good isn't just because "Oh, Cass and Bruce fight", it's because it was the emotional climax which all the strains and bumps in their relationship had been building up to. And even despite all the bumps in the relationship, there wasn't an instance where I ever questioned that these two _did_ love each other...very much _unlike_ Post- OYL.

----------


## Rac7d*

When will cass and Damian meet??

----------


## Assam

> When will cass and Damian meet??


Dunno, but the relationship will be _very_ different than the one we saw in Gates of Gotham. There, we saw a mature 20 year old woman taking care of her 10 year old little brother. Now the two are much closer in age, 16-17 and 13 respectively, they aren't siblings (yet), and there isn't the conflict of Cass being yet another person Bruce took in before Damian, as in this messed up world, Damian was part of the BatFam first.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Dunno, but the relationship will be _very_ different than the one we saw in Gates of Gotham. There, we saw a mature 20 year old woman taking care of her 10 year old little brother. Now the two are much closer in age, 16-17 and 13 respectively, they aren't siblings (yet), and there isn't the conflict of Cass being yet another person Bruce took in before Damian, as in this messed up world, Damian was part of the BatFam first.


I thought cass was 14? now she the same age as tim and steph?

----------


## Assam

> I thought cass was 14? now she the same age as tim and steph?


A few months younger (Her birthday IS in January after all), but yeah, Tynion confirmed she's 16 or 17 on Twitter.

----------


## Rac7d*

Was she not 14 in tha big Mother storryline, or did everyone age up 3 years when damian did

----------


## Assam

> Was she not 14 in tha big Mother storryline, or did everyone age up 3 years when damian did


I don't remember her age being stated in Eternal, but who knows.

----------


## millernumber1

> You should have been reading RHatO since Rebirth started. Bizarro alone is enough of a reason. He is starting to become a favorite of mine.


I don't like Jason that much. Artemis is my biggest draw, but I just don't feel like reading it.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I don't like Jason that much. Artemis is my biggest draw, but I just don't feel like reading it.


Prior to this run, I only liked RobinJay, and thought he should have stayed dead. While I still sorta agree with the latter point, this run has actually gotten me to give a damn about Red Hood.

----------


## millernumber1

> Prior to this run, I only liked RobinJay, and thought he should have stayed dead. While I still sorta agree with the latter point, this run has actually gotten me to give a damn about Red Hood.


I hear nothing but good about it. I just...don't care about Jason enough to do it. Plus I am satisfied with the comics I am reading.

----------


## Green Goblin of Sector 2814

> I disagree. While they might not be AS close currently as they were in the good continuity, LoS showed there's definitely more to their relationship than say Bruce' with Luke, JPV and Basil.


This just reminds me of how bleh the timeline of the Batman books currently is. The Superman books have been hitting it out of the park since Rebirth and Reborn, but the Batline is stuck in the New 52.

----------


## Assam

> This just reminds me of how bleh the timeline of the Batman books currently is. The Superman books have been hitting it out of the park since Rebirth and Reborn, but the Batline is stuck in the New 52.


Definitely an issue. Much as Tynion loves these characters, he stands by the work he did in the Nu52 far more than he should. And in Snyder's case, he's got his _own_ agenda going on.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Exactly. And the fact that he _is_ giving her the emotional support she needs adds to how close they are. 
> 
> Their relationship was definitely screwed up, but not in a bad way. Bruce didn't know what he was doing, thinking that having her be his "perfect soldier" was all she needed, and it wasn't a matter of bad writing, so much as a bad perspective, as his ignorance toward the situation was balanced out by Babs's warm affection for Cass. The reason Batgirl #50 is so good isn't just because "Oh, Cass and Bruce fight", it's because it was the emotional climax which all the strains and bumps in their relationship had been building up to. And even despite all the bumps in the relationship, there wasn't an instance where I ever questioned that these two _did_ love each other...very much _unlike_ Post- OYL.


It was screwed up in a bad way because Bruce encouraged her to ignore her civilian life, isolated her socially and did little to nothing to help her develop non crime fighting skills. She was more an obedient soldier to him during his Batdick era, and he can hardly claim ignorance given how few members there were/are of the Batclan at the time.

This Batman? He actually acknowledges that Cass is a young woman, who's been raised in an abusive environment and needs emotional support sometimes. He's as understanding with her as he has been with Gotham Girl. We're just not used to seeing a Batman with perspective  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> It was screwed up in a bad way because Bruce encouraged her to ignore her civilian life, isolated her socially and did little to nothing to help her develop non crime fighting skills. She was more an obedient soldier to him during his Batdick era, and he can hardly claim ignorance given how few members there were/are of the Batclan at the time.
> 
> This Batman? He actually acknowledges that Cass is a young woman, who's been raised in an abusive environment and needs emotional support sometimes. He's as understanding with her as he has been with Gotham Girl. We're just not used to seeing a Batman with perspective


Oh, I definitely like _this_ Batman more. I've said plenty of times now that characterization wise, Tynion's Bruce may just be my favorite. 

I completely agree that in-universe, it was BAD at plenty of points, but  what I meant was that it wasn't bad _writing,_ as we basically saw two parents with very different perspectives on how to raise their child. I'm very happy they went a different angle with their relationship in 'Tec, as without the presence of Momma Babs, having the relationship be similar to its original state wouldn't have worked.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Oh, I definitely like _this_ Batman more. I've said plenty of times now that characterization wise, Tynion's Bruce may just be my favorite. 
> 
> I completely agree that in-universe, it was BAD at plenty of points, but  what I meant was that it wasn't bad _writing,_ as we basically saw two parents with very different perspectives on how to raise their child. I'm very happy they went a different angle with their relationship in 'Tec, as without the presence of Momma Babs, having the relationship be similar to its original state wouldn't have worked.


Don't get me wrong, I prefer this Batman too. I'm just saying, Cass' relationship with him isn't that close as it was OYL, it simply seems so because we're grading him on the Bat-dick scale. In a lot of ways, Bruce has traded quality relationships for quantity, and Cass' relationship now falls on the quantity scale, IMO

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> It was screwed up in a bad way because Bruce encouraged her to ignore her civilian life, isolated her socially and did little to nothing to help her develop non crime fighting skills. She was more an obedient soldier to him during his Batdick era, and he can hardly claim ignorance given how few members there were/are of the Batclan at the time.


[Bruce]  Mole person?

^_^

----------


## Assam

So we were only focused on the main line, buuuuuuut, how much you wanna bet that much like Bombshells, we won't be seeing Cass in Gotham Garage. After all, what we really need is more Harley Quinn shoved down our throats! And how could we _ever_do without a fan favorite like Silver Banshee?  :Frown: 

I will say this though: I'm glad that unlike poor Kate and Tim, Cass isn't getting dragged into Dick's crappy elseworlds book.

----------


## RedBird

> So we were only focused on the main line, buuuuuuut, how much you wanna bet that much like Bombshells, we won't be seeing Cass in Gotham Garage. After all, what we really need is more Harley Quinn shoved down our throats! And how could we _ever_do without a fan favorite like Silver Banshee?


Is bombshells ending? Or are we now gonna have two sets of books dedicated to the DC women? 




> I will say this though: I'm glad that unlike poor Kate and Tim, Cass isn't getting dragged into Dick's crappy elseworlds book.


True, its what I'm hoping for the rest of the batfamily too. Either that is the case, or the writer will have her (or the others) in it, but just didnt think they were important enough to mention, like some kind of side character. Or worse still, they will be used in the book just to be killed off for shock value as some kind of, 'have I gone too far?' moral dilemma for Dick.

----------


## Assam

> Is bombshells ending? Or are we now gonna have two sets of books dedicated to the DC women? 
> 
> True, its what I'm hoping for the rest of the batfamily too. Either that is the case, or the writer will have her (or the others) in it, but just didnt think they were important enough to mention, like some kind of side character. Or worse still, they will be used in the book just to be killed off for shock value as some kind of, 'have I gone too far?' moral dilemma for Dick.


Bombshells isnt ending. The two books will co-exist, and Cass will continue to be ignored by both. 

The sad thing is that those predictions are probably spot on one way or another.

----------


## millernumber1

Someone on 4chan just posted:

"Cass vs the Riddler
Leaves written riddles
wtf
punches everyone until she gets to the Riddler"

I thought it was absolutely hilarious. And true.

----------


## Assam

> Someone on 4chan just posted:
> 
> "Cass vs the Riddler
> Leaves written riddles
> wtf
> punches everyone until she gets to the Riddler"
> 
> I thought it was absolutely hilarious. And true.


I mean, it's basically canon: 

Hm.jpg

The few times we got to see her doing detective work were always fun. A whole book about her being a detective, constantly having to work around and overcome her limitations, could make for a great read.

----------


## millernumber1

Agreed. Would be great.

----------


## Assam

So much new SDCC merch...so much new BatFamily merch...more Dick, Jason, and Damian statues, more Batman, Catwoman, Joker and Harley figures...Babsgirl got SOMETHING...and of course, no new merch for Cass. 

*SIGH*.

 I don't know why I bothered to hope for anything different.

----------


## Assam

> All I have to say to one Mr. Wayne is that he needs to get off his ass and adopt Cass again! DorkyDadBatman is best Batman. 
> 
> Attachment 50694
> 
> Attachment 50695
> 
> Attachment 50696


Just...uh, felt the need to repost this. No special reason...

In fact let's get some more: 

hot.jpg

Nucass.jpg

COME ON.jpg

Plenty more where this came from too! 

*Grumbles off into the distance.*

----------


## CryNotWolf

I wonder how long until we get Cass in a book not written by Tynion. The guy has no authorial finesse and seems completely content using old themes and storylines to hold up his book while he goes through plots nobody really cares about and every now and then giving a page or so of lip service to keep the fans happy.

I would KILL for a Cass solo written by someone like Valentine.

----------


## Assam

> I wonder how long until we get Cass in a book not written by Tynion. The guy has no authorial finesse and seems completely content using old themes and storylines to hold up his book while he goes through plots nobody really cares about and every now and then giving a page or so of lip service to keep the fans happy.
> 
> I would KILL for a Cass solo written by someone like Valentine.


Well, she's going to be appearing in another book soon...Red Hood and the Outlaws. I am very cautiously optimistic. Optimistic because the current run has been very good. Cautiously because it's still Scott "Didn't write a good comic for 6 years and performed character assassination on *5!* of my favorite characters" freaking Lobdell. 

And frankly, at this point, I'd kill for a Cass solo written by ANY half-decent writer so long as they understood her inside and out (Including how she speaks) and knew her entire history. (Though someone like Valentine would of course be optimal.)

----------


## Aahz

> Well, she's going to be appearing in another book soon...Red Hood and the Outlaws. I am very cautiously optimistic. Optimistic because the current run has been very good.


The solits sound like it will be mostly focused on Batwoman, I don't expect Cass to get much screen time in that story.

I'm a little curious ho he will handle the powelevels in this, Bizzaro and Artemis should be out of the league for 'TEC team.

----------


## Assam

> The solits sound like it will be mostly focused on Batwoman, I don't expect Cass to get much screen time in that story.


She's on a cover and this is a multi-part story so while yes, focus will likely be on Kate, I'm hoping Cass to get a decent amount of panel time. 




> I'm a little curious ho he will handle the powelevels in this, Bizzaro and Artemis should be out of the league for 'TEC team.


I mean on paper, yes...but Cass _did_ once beat a Bizarro Supergirl and has beaten up giant monsters on more than occasion. Cass's fighting ability has absolutely NOTHING to do with why she's my favorite character, but I will never not find it amusing how hax she can be.

----------


## Aahz

> I mean on paper, yes...but Cass _did_ once beat a Bizarro Supergirl and has beaten up giant monsters on more than occasion.


I can only remember one occasion when she fought Supergirl, but IIRC she had Red Sunlight Katanas to power her down. And some of Cass pre flashpoint fights were just piss.

I don't think that she (and the Rest of her team) should be able to achieve much against the outlwas unless they have some really power full gadgets.

----------


## Assam

> I can only remember one occasion when she fought Supergirl, but IIRC she had Red Sunlight Katanas to power her down. And some of Cass pre flashpoint fights were just piss.


There was that time, but that's not what I'm thinking of. (It was an EvilCass story so I try to _never_ think about it) But no, in a Joker's Last Laugh tie-in, Cass showed up to help Linda Danvers deal with a *Bizarro* Supergirl. And yes, a lot of her feats are "piss", but it got to a point where I think writers were just trying to top themselves on ridiculousness, and I enjoyed that. I think the height of silliness, even more so than her bullet dodging, would either be her aforementioned win against Bizarro Supergirl, or the time she took down a group of eldritch horrors in the world of shadows. (That last one I didn't enjoy because she killed them, and the writer seemed to be under the impression that Cass's no kill rule only applied to people.) 




> I don't think that she (and the Rest of her team) should be able to achieve much against the outlwas unless they have some really power full gadgets.


Well, we'll see what happens. (It is kind of funny how the leaders of both of these factions, if Jason can really be called a "leader", are by far the weakest power level wise)

----------


## Aahz

> There was that time, but that's not what I'm thinking of. (It was an EvilCass story so I try to _never_ think about it) But no, in a Joker's Last Laugh tie-in, Cass showed up to help Linda Danvers deal with a *Bizarro* Supergirl. And yes, a lot of her feats are "piss", but it got to a point where I think writers were just trying to top themselves on ridiculousness, and I enjoyed that.


OK I can't remember that issue (and if it happend in Super Girl I probaly never read it). But I hope that the new 52 writer keep her a little bit more grounded.




> Well, we'll see what happens. (It is kind of funny how the leaders of both of these factions, if Jason can really be called a "leader", are by far the weakest power level wise)


Luke was sofar even with his armor not really impressive and I don't know how much they keep Azrael in line with the original Version but back than he was without the System also quite useless.

But thats not exactly something new, the Batfamily members are usually the weakest members of their teams (unless there is an other nonpower guy like for example an Arrow Family member around), I think back in the days of the NTT it was even more or less said that even Beast Boy and Danny Chase were more powerfull than Dick.

----------


## Assam

> Luke was sofar even with his armor not really impressive and I don't know how much they keep Azrael in line with the original Version but back than he was without the System also quite useless.
> 
> But thats not exactly something new, the Batfamily members are usually the weakest members of their teams (unless there is an other nonpower guy like for example an Arrow Family member around), I think back in the days of the NTT it was even more or less said that even Beast Boy and Danny Chase were more powerfull than Dick.


Luke hasn't been impressive in 'Tec but he had some good moments in his solo. I guess we'll be seeing what JPV is capable of now next week. 

And yeah, that is usually the case with teams and BatFam members. But even with the team entirely made up of BatFam members, the leader is still the weakest (at least on paper) 

I don't really think we need a power level conversation right now. We all know it's gonna happen once this issue actually comes out.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> OK I can't remember that issue (and if it happend in Super Girl I probaly never read it). But I hope that the new 52 writer keep her a little bit more grounded.


Well, Tynion hasn't gone crazy with feats like bullet dodging or meta speed yet, but he did have her beat up hundreds and hundreds of ninja by herself.

SHADOW GIRL YAY!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> OK I can't remember that issue (and if it happend in Super Girl I probaly never read it). But I hope that the new 52 writer keep her a little bit more grounded.


Yeah, it happened in Supergirl. Definitely recommend Peter David's run. Only time I've ever cared about Supergirl. 




> Well, Tynion hasn't gone crazy with feats like bullet dodging or meta speed yet, but he did have her beat up hundreds and hundreds of ninja by herself.


You'd think someone as well versed as Shiva would have known about inverse ninja law. 




> SHADOW GIRL YAY!


Still a better name than Orphan.

----------


## millernumber1

> You'd think someone as well versed as Shiva would have known about inverse ninja law. 
> 
> Still a better name than Orphan.


I'm still not sure what I think about inverse ninja law. It makes sense as a dramatic device, but it also tends to decrease my investment in a character's accomplishments. On the other hand, the only person who was able to beat the ninjas was Cass, so not sure if it really counts.

Only if you include the YAY!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I'm still not sure what I think about inverse ninja law. It makes sense as a dramatic device, but it also tends to decrease my investment in a character's accomplishments. On the other hand, the only person who was able to beat the ninjas was Cass, so not sure if it really counts.


I still really wish Tynion could have just flat out said their swords were magic...




> Only if you include the YAY!


Shadow Girl YAY!: Still a better codename than Signal.

----------


## millernumber1

> I still really wish Tynion could have just flat out said their swords were magic...
> 
> Shadow Girl YAY!: Still a better codename than Signal.


I don't really need the swords to be magic. They're not really more magic than incredibly sharp but somehow non-lethal batarangs.  :Smile: 

Shots fired! I'm still really annoyed that we didn't get Lark. I love the bird theme.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Shots fired! I'm still really annoyed that we didn't get Lark. I love the bird theme.


I enjoy the bird theme as well. (Say what you will about Harper, Bluebird is a really cool codename) At this point, I'd happily take a bird name for Cass, my personal picks being Rook or Nightingale (or if you want to get cheesy, Knightingale) Not really related to the bird theme, but I also saw someone suggest BlackWing.

----------


## millernumber1

> I enjoy the bird theme as well. (Say what you will about Harper, Bluebird is a really cool codename) At this point, I'd happily take a bird name for Cass, my personal picks being Rook or Nightingale (or if you want to get cheesy, Knightingale) Not really related to the bird theme, but I also saw someone suggest BlackWing.


I like Bluebird as well.  Oooooh. I like those bird names for Cass!

----------


## Assam

Mentioned this in a different way in the Steph thread, but super happy for her (As well as Traci 13 and Arrowette) getting into YJ Season 3...but I'm still hoping for Cass dammit. There's the obvious reason that she's my favorite, but we also don't need ANOTHER reason for the Cass and Steph fandom's to be at each other's throats. Plus, getting a chance to see these two _together_ in animation is too good of an opportunity,

EDIT: 

From Tumblr: “Diversity is a really important goal which is why we excluded the frequently requested asian-american, mentally disabled, queer-coded woman in preference for yet another white blonde.” 

Like I said, I'm personally very happy about Cissie's inclusion, but...yeah. Would be nice to get some neuroatypical representation here.

EDIT EDIT: Okay, I won't lie, the feelings are getting to me and I'mma be super pissed if Steph's in and Cass is left out.

Oh, and very nice to see that Twitter and Tumblr are sharing in my combination of excitement and UNYIELDING RAGE.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

sad cass.jpg

The fan artists have responded with haste. 

At least tentatively, you f**ked up Greg.

----------


## Rogue Star

If Cain's in Young Justice, I hope they don't shy away from making it clear exactly what she used to do before she became Batgirl.

----------


## Assam

I swear I didn't make this: 

didiio.jpg

But it IS highly amusing.

----------


## adrikito

> Attachment 51909
> 
> The fan artists have responded with haste. 
> 
> At least tentatively, you f**ked up Greg.


Sad image... I feel bad and I am only a normal man.. not related with the comics or YJ..

----------


## Assam

ugg.jpg

lol.jpg

Edits made in response to Cass being wrongfully excluded in the past. Seriously, exclusion for fanart pisses me off, but the original version of that top panel makes me real mad.

----------


## Jovos2099

I've  always liked cass because i have high functioning autism and severe adhd with moderate to severe to depression and there are just not many characters  with disabilities in comics.

----------


## Assam

> I've  always liked cass because i have high functioning autism and severe adhd with moderate to severe to depression and there are just not many characters  with disabilities in comics.


Wow. I actually have all of those as well, and on the exact same levels. Go figure. 

It's always nice to hear someone else whose been touched by Cass's struggles. While there are million reasons I love the character, in terms of why I relate to her more than any other , her disabilities are pretty key. _Especially_ since this is a medium where mental illness is almost _always_ portrayed as something villains have, and that disgusts me. And whenever someone calls her unintelligent, boring or unrelatable, all because of things stemming from her disabilities? I wanna sock them in their f**king jaw.

----------


## Rogue Star

> ugg.jpg
> 
> lol.jpg
> 
> Edits made in response to Cass being wrongfully excluded in the past. Seriously, exclusion for fanart pisses me off, but the original version of that top panel makes me real mad.


Dang, that second picture was some bu-sh.

----------


## Assam

You know, it didn't dawn on me until  I saw it first hand: There are people who were introduced to Cass though Batman and Robin Eternal. People who think that Harper Row is integral to Cass's story and, by extension, the Bat-Family as a whole. People who think her origin as presented there is her only one. 

This...is very depressing.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## Assam

> 


Cass looks all sweet now, but just wait till she finds out Jason had the last rice krispies.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## RedBird

> You know, it didn't dawn on me until  I saw it first hand: There are people who were introduced to Cass though Batman and Robin Eternal. People who think that Harper Row is integral to Cass's story and, by extension, the Bat-Family as a whole. People who think her origin as presented there is her only one. 
> 
> This...is very depressing.


This is exactly why I hated that event, along with a bunch of other reasons of course but this was a biggie. Cassandras big return, her new story line, her character arc and its all tied to a completely different new character whose story and grief take over the plot and overshadow Cass.

Heres the thing, I was KINDA confused at the time as to why they were merging the big Robin anniversary event with Cass's return but logically I thought that hey, maybe this means that we will get a bunch of interactions between her and the boys, right? Perhaps to speed up the process of her integration back into the MAIN Batfam, they will have the boys join her in whatever fight/mission she has to take on allowing for each of them to form and relationship and grow closer to her in the process thus more easily accepting her into the family when the time comes. She could certainly still form a relationship with Babs as well afterwoulds.  

Silly me right? To think that the Robin anniversary featuring the return of Cassandra Cain would by majority feature the Robins and Cass actually communicating and working all together, ha ha.

----------


## RedBird

Apologies if this has been posted before but

Cass in different outfits picked by her brothers

Cassandra dressed by Dick

tumblr_orn9y7k8wy1tppd1go2_1280.jpg

Cassandra dressed by Jason

tumblr_orn9y7k8wy1tppd1go3_1280.jpg

Cassandra dressed by Tim

tumblr_orn9y7k8wy1tppd1go1_1280.jpg

----------


## RedBird

Cassandra dressed by Damian

fff.JPG

----------


## Assam

> This is exactly why I hated that event, along with a bunch of other reasons of course but this was a biggie. Cassandras big return, her new story line, her character arc and its all tied to a completely different new character whose story and grief take over the plot and overshadow Cass.
> 
> Heres the thing, I was KINDA confused at the time as to why they were merging the big Robin anniversary event with Cass's return but logically I thought that hey, maybe this means that we will get a bunch of interactions between her and the boys, right? Perhaps to speed up the process of her integration back into the MAIN Batfam, they will have the boys join her in whatever fight/mission she has to take on allowing for each of them to form and relationship and grow closer to her in the process thus more easily accepting her into the family when the time comes. She could certainly still form a relationship with Babs as well afterwoulds.  
> 
> Silly me right? To think that the Robin anniversary featuring the return of Cassandra Cain would by majority feature the Robins and Cass actually communicating and working all together, ha ha.


Would've been nice...would've also been nice if they could have noted the negative reaction and take advantage of Rebirth to just retcon back in Cass's original history. Or if they weren't planning to put Harper in a new team book. Or if Tynion hadn't mentioned Mother a few issues ago showing that he still unfortunately thinks people liked BR:E.  

What was it they said at ComicCon? 80% of the DCU is going to be restored? Why do I get the feeling Cass's history isn't going to be included in that?  :Frown:

----------


## shadowsgirl

:Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

Also @Redbird, the best of those outfits you posted for Cass is definitely Jason's. It's the closest to how she dressed in her solo.

Also also, you realize its been almost 2 years since Cass came back and we haven't even _seen_ her in civilian clothes? Just her costume and a couple instances of formalwear. Ugh.

----------


## Assam

rooftag.jpg

I really do like to think that with the weird timeline of comics and with how much we don't see, roof tag was a constant thing these two did.

----------


## millernumber1

> rooftag.jpg
> 
> I really do like to think that with the weird timeline of comics and with how much we don't see, roof tag was a constant thing these two did.


Oooh, where's that from?

----------


## Assam

> Oooh, where's that from?


https://sam-and-crystal.tumblr.com/

----------


## RedBird

> Also @Redbird, the best of those outfits you posted for Cass is definitely Jason's. It's the closest to how she dressed in her solo.
> 
> Also also, you realize its been almost 2 years since Cass came back and we haven't even _seen_ her in civilian clothes? Just her costume and a couple instances of formalwear. Ugh.


First, I agree about the outfit, the Jason one suits her strange black on pastel grunge looks.

Second, well yeah, thats what happens when you tie a characters backstory to another more irrelevant face. Suddenly you have to start from scratch when it comes to intergration into the batfam despite dedicating months to a series featuring plenty of the integral members. Meaning no invites to casual family outtings where she can be herself since by all means she is still a stranger to most of the family. SiGH. What a waste of time that was.

Also I agree with your previous post her original origin of course would have been a much more welcome arc to behold.

----------


## millernumber1

> https://sam-and-crystal.tumblr.com/


Thanks! I was wondering how I'd missed it, but it's brand new.  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

http://2-weird-4.tumblr.com/

----------


## Assam

> http://2-weird-4.tumblr.com/


I've seen those before and I LOVE them. If Super Sons continues once Tomasi leaves the book (And I await that day passionately), I'd love to see an issue where Cass comes to babysit/train the boys.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## CPSparkles

> I've seen those before and I LOVE them. If Super Sons continues once Tomasi leaves the book (And I await that day passionately), I'd love to see an issue where Cass comes to babysit/train the boys.


Shame that you felt compelled to boycott it but yes I would love the Supersons to meet the girls in each others family teams

----------


## Assam

> Shame that you felt compelled to boycott it but yes I would love the Supersons to meet the girls in each others family teams


Well it's not just that  I won't read the book so long as Tomasi's on it, but also that Cass has ZERO chance of appearing in it while he's writing.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Anyone read the new Tec yet? We finally got some Kate/Cass interaction (with the emphasis on ACTION)  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Anyone read the new Tec yet? We finally got some Kate/Cass interaction (with the emphasis on ACTION)


Just finished it. _Very_ pleasantly surprised with what ended up happening.  I'd still like to see some civilian bonding time, but getting to see the two fighting together, and just how in-sync they were shown to be, was still great.  :Smile: 

And it wasn't _all_ action. Kate's reaction to Cass's full sentence was funny without being insulting, and it seems I was right that quoting Shakespeare is going to be something Cass does now, like how she used to quote TV and movies once in awhile.

----------


## Caivu

> Just finished it. _Very_ pleasantly surprised with what ended up happening.  I'd still like to see some civilian bonding time, but getting to see the two fighting together, and just how in-sync they were shown to be, was still great. 
> 
> And it wasn't _all_ action. Kate's reaction to Cass's full sentence was funny without being insulting, and it seems I was right that quoting Shakespeare is going to be something Cass does now, like how she used to quote TV and movies once in awhile.


Agreed. Good payoff to #950. The Shakespeare thing could make for an interesting... tic, for lack of a better term.

On a different note, here's a new sketch by Minkyu Jung:

Screenshot_20170726-200549.jpg

----------


## Assam

> On a different note, here's a new sketch by Minkyu Jung:
> 
> Screenshot_20170726-200549.jpg


Nice! I think it's really fitting when fanartists draw Cass with messy hair.

----------


## Assam

chun li cass.jpg

This Summer, Cassandra Cain-Wayne is...CHUN-LI! 

(Also, because of who she's being dressed as, this is one of the only times I won't complain about Cass being drawn with large breasts.)

----------


## Assam

Rena's take on the new issue of 'Tec. I thought it was pretty funny: 

*"So. I guess we’re… just at the point where it’s accepted that Cassandra is mostly monosyllabic except for when she decides to deliver perfect Shakespearean quotes. That’s a thing that we’re just… gonna take for granted now I guess. Was this built up to. is this truly a good thing for her character. Who knows because she got a focal story in another arc, guys, we can’t dive too deep on it anymore!

And I guess Kate and Bruce are following the previous continuity’s grand tradition of doing nothing themselves with helping Cass learn to read, write, and evolve her vocabulary. We’ll just… keep supplying her with crimefighting costumes and not worry about the fact that she’s collecting trash and living in the attic of a ballet studio like the freaking Phantom of the Opera complete with a literal Christine.

But. Believe it or not (and for me it’s hard to believe) this is not entirely a book judged on the merits of its Cass. Which is good for it because while not the worst thing ever in that regard, it continuously raises its own expectations and then fails to meet them. No, I need to evaluate how the rest of this story goes because it is, at the end of the day, an ensemble book.

Azrael is taking over Jean Paul and Luke who is his best friend, no homo (for now), has the solution of bringing back the literal embodiment of terrible Batman fashion choices of the 90s but without the full ZUR-EN-ARRH-esque color scheme. Because the solution to any evil suit is an evil suit. And yet they STILL won’t give Cass a decent costume— sorry, sorry, no more about Cass.

Bruce and Zatanna’s moments and history is sweet but we’re like… back at the drawing board when it comes to invasive mind control/memory erasure procedures in the DCU which has never been a good thing and worked to DC’s benefit so I’m still not sure why we go down this road.

That being said, Kate got a few fun lines, and I do appreciate that Jean Paul’s plight is at least sympathetic to him especially since he’s always had the undertones of mental illness. And I’m genuinely invested in how all this works out and why Bruce magically (heh) knows he needs Zee and the weird orb’s help to stop whatever BS Ra’s is up to."* 

I'll say this. With how it was explained, I don't see a problem with one-liners like the one delivered in this week's issue. But I'm still calling fowl on the SPEECH she gave in the first issue of the arc.

----------


## godisawesome

I can not only accept the speech but embrace it... provided they make it clear she's largely mastered mimicry as a physical trait and sees a Shakespearean performance as an art form she can copy. If they make it clear that she can mimic _sounds_ perfectly as a physical action but still struggles with contextualizing her own thoughts with those sounds, it's actually kind of beautifully tragic. 

She'd be the girl capable of doing a perfect recreation of Olivier's Hamlet, but still struggle to put a full sentence together to ask Steph to calm down.

----------


## Assam

> I can not only accept the speech but embrace it... provided they make it clear she's largely mastered mimicry as a physical trait and sees a Shakespearean performance as an art form she can copy. *If they make it clear that she can mimic sounds perfectly as a physical action but still struggles with contextualizing her own thoughts with those sounds, it's actually kind of beautifully tragic.* 
> 
> She'd be the girl capable of doing a perfect recreation of Olivier's Hamlet, but still struggle to put a full sentence together to ask Steph to calm down.


I like this idea, and the bolded point in particular is what I was thinking when trying to defend the scene to myself when the issue first came out. After all, one of the key aspects of her disabilities is that her brain struggles to find the right words to use, and it's even harder for her to put them together. Being able to mimic what she's heard on the audio tape in a small dose like was done here makes perfect sense and I'm fine with it.  I just would have liked to see it _progress_ to the point she could do something like the speech, actually getting to really see her learn and master mimicry, struggling along the way. Remember, she has _multiple_  disabilities, and this shouldn't be something that comes naturally to her.  But as is, the speech scene for me currently feels just too jarring and like a waste of lost potential. 

I really like how you put that second part, and provided they do take the time to actually show her skills in this area growing (The idea of which may have already been tossed out the window), I wouldn't mind seeing it go there.

----------


## Katana500

> Rena's take on the new issue of 'Tec. I thought it was pretty funny: 
> 
> [B]"So. I guess we’re… just at the point where it’s accepted that Cassandra is mostly monosyllabic except for when she decides to deliver perfect Shakespearean quotes. That’s a thing that we’re just… gonna take for granted now I guess. Was this built up to. is this truly a good thing for her character. Who knows because she got a focal story in another arc, guys, we can’t dive too deep on it anymore!
> 
> And I guess Kate and Bruce are following the previous continuity’s grand tradition of doing nothing themselves with helping Cass learn to read, write, and evolve her vocabulary. We’ll just… keep supplying her with crimefighting costumes and not worry about the fact that she’s collecting trash and living in the attic of a ballet studio like the freaking Phantom of the Opera complete with a literal Christine.
> 
> I'll say this. With how it was explained, I don't see a problem with one-liners like the one delivered in this week's issue. But I'm still calling fowl on the SPEECH she gave in the first issue of the arc.


To be fair about reciting her a speech. I'd compare it to any of us learning a foriegn langauge. Certainly when I was learning French I could recite some specific setences sometimes three or four together just through memory while being unable to say more than a few words otherwise. Cassandra is not stupid so she should be able to memorize a few linea even if she does not fully grasp the language

----------


## Caivu

> To be fair about reciting her a speech. I'd compare it to any of us learning a foriegn langauge. Certainly when I was learning French I could recite some specific setences sometimes three or four together just through memory while being unable to say more than a few words otherwise. Cassandra is not stupid so she should be able to memorize a few linea even if she does not fully grasp the language


Yeah, I don't get why Cass being able to recite a speech like that is such a sticking point.

I'm reminded of this scene:




The shaman in that scene? The actor didn't know English. At all.




> D.R. Nanayakkara, cast as the Indian village Shaman, did not speak a word of English. He delivered his lines phonetically by mimicking Steven Spielberg who was prompting him off camera. The pauses in his dialogue were therefore not for dramatic effect, but rather waiting for his next line.


That's from IMDB.

Cass actually _does_ know English, or at least substantially more than "literally none", so her learning from a tape like that and making quick progress is perfectly reasonable by real-life standards. Reality is Unrealistic might be at play here.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

http://darkknightnews.com/2017/07/28...ective-comics/

_DKN: Absolutely! Those films really brought Batman back into the public conscience in a huge way. So in the Batman stories you draw for Detective Comics; is there any one character or specific characters that you really enjoy drawing? Are there any that are particularly challenging, that you DONT like drawing.

AM: My favourite is Cassandra, she is extremely expressive. She can go from totally cute to absolute badass shes fantastic! Batwoman and Batman are really fun to draw too. I love Clayface, but l dont think Ive quite got the gist of him yet, the same with Batwing. l think his uniform is cool, but Id love to do a redesign of it._

----------


## millernumber1

Oooh, nice find. Some really good insights there, from someone I hope will become legendary.

----------


## Assam

> http://darkknightnews.com/2017/07/28...ective-comics/
> 
> _DKN: Absolutely! Those films really brought Batman back into the public conscience in a huge way. So in the Batman stories you draw for Detective Comics; is there any one character or specific characters that you really enjoy drawing? Are there any that are particularly challenging, that you DON’T like drawing.
> 
> AM: My favourite is Cassandra, she is extremely expressive. She can go from totally cute to absolute badass… she’s fantastic! Batwoman and Batman are really fun to draw too. I love Clayface, but l don’t think I’ve quite got the gist of him yet, the same with Batwing. l think his uniform is cool, but I’d love to do a redesign of it._


For every prejudiced or ignorant fan, there is a fan who knows how amazing a character Cass is.And or every DiDio or Tomasi, it seems that there's someone, be they an artist or a writer, who is one of the modern day greats who is also a passionate fan of hers.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Would love to have the original piece on my wall (but I know I can't afford it)

----------


## Assam

> Would love to have the original piece on my wall (but I know I can't afford it)


Breathtaking. I'd love to have it as well.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Breathtaking. I'd love to have it as well.


This can only be resolved with a fight to the death. Sorry, thems the rules.

May the bigger Cass fan prevail!

----------


## Assam

> This can only be resolved with a fight to the death. Sorry, thems the rules.
> 
> May the bigger Cass fan prevail!


Um, this is _Cass_ we're talking about. She wouldn't approve of a death match under any circumstances! 

Although if it was just a matter of who the bigger fan is...duh.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

[X]

----------


## godisawesome

> Um, this is _Cass_ we're talking about. She wouldn't approve of a death match under any circumstances! 
> 
> Although if it was just a matter of who the bigger fan is...duh.


Right.

First person rendered totally insensible wins.

Fight!

----------


## millernumber1

> Right.
> 
> First person rendered totally insensible wins.
> 
> Fight!


Why don't you compromise and one person get the Martinez art, and another get some of Takara's art from BRE #13?  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

100 PAGES! THE THREAD HAS MADE IT TO 100 PAGES! FIRST OF THE FOUR FEMALE BAT APPRECIATION THREADS TO GET THERE! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0Uiq4NTs0

----------


## RedBird

Lightning Strikes Art


YAY 100 PAGES!  :Embarrassment:

----------


## Rac7d*

If cass is going by orphan why isnt that title acknowledged in the thread header

----------


## millernumber1

> 100 PAGES! THE THREAD HAS MADE IT TO 100 PAGES! FIRST OF THE FOUR FEMALE BAT APPRECIATION THREADS TO GET THERE! 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB0Uiq4NTs0


I just hope you appreciate that a Steph fan was the one who pushed it to 100  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> If cass is going by orphan why isnt that title acknowledged in the thread header


Cause no one likes it.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I just hope you appreciate that a Steph fan was the one who pushed it to 100


You may have gotten the final push, but I'm half-sure that since I became a member on this forum, I've posted on this thread more than anyone else.  :Wink: 




> Cause no one likes it.


That's not true. Tynion likes it.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I really do hope he changes it to _anything_ else at the end of the eventual/inevitable Cass and Basil arc. No one in the fandom likes the name, and if _he_ doesn't change it by the end of his massive 'Tec run, future writers may be hesitant to do so.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Lightning Strikes Art
> 
> 
> YAY 100 PAGES!



( *o*) BEAUTIFUL!

----------


## Blight

> If cass is going by orphan why isnt that title acknowledged in the thread header


Because the thread was made prior to her becoming Orphan. Unless the original poster comes back to change that. That ain't happening.




> Would love to have the original piece on my wall (but I know I can't afford it)


Out of curiosity, is that for sale? Cause... I would want to add that to my collection.




> Why don't you compromise and one person get the Martinez art, and another get some of Takara's art from BRE #13?


Takara original art of any Cass stuff is worth the purchase. I have two pages from #13 myself. And they are quite breath-taking.

----------


## Assam

> Because the thread was made prior to her becoming Orphan. Unless the original poster comes back to change that. That ain't happening.


Actually, the original poster, godisawesome, posts on the forum rather frequently and is still active on this thread. A mute point though because only mods can change thread names.

----------


## Assam

Another batch of fanart: 

cass pallette.jpg

[iggyback.jpg

fanfiction.jpg

A note on that last one: I think it's a law that if a popular character's favorite food is revealed (even if it's only mentioned ONCE), it will creep into plenty of fanart.

----------


## millernumber1

> You may have gotten the final push, but I'm half-sure that since I became a member on this forum, I've posted on this thread more than anyone else. 
> 
> That's not true. Tynion likes it.
> 
> I really do hope he changes it to _anything_ else at the end of the eventual/inevitable Cass and Basil arc. No one in the fandom likes the name, and if _he_ doesn't change it by the end of his massive 'Tec run, future writers may be hesitant to do so.


I was joking. I give full credit to you for keeping the thread active - I wish I were better about keeping the Steph thread active. Just wanted to remind peeps and Steph and Cass fans should be friends.  :Smile: 

And Tynion doesn't post here, as far as I know. If you, JT4, 1) You are my favorite current Batman and Batfam writer, and 2) please change Cass's codename! I'm begging you!




> Because the thread was made prior to her becoming Orphan. Unless the original poster comes back to change that. That ain't happening.
> 
> Takara original art of any Cass stuff is worth the purchase. I have two pages from #13 myself. And they are quite breath-taking.


Yeah - #13 is truly gorgeous. I wish Takara had been given the same amount of time to plan and execute #956 as that issue.




> Actually, the original poster, godisawesome, posts on the forum rather frequently and is still active on this thread. A mute point though because only mods can change thread names.


Yeah, anyone can petition the mods to update the thread title. The reason no one has, though, is because no one likes it - at least no one who posts here.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

> I was joking. I give full credit to you for keeping the thread active - I wish I were better about keeping the Steph thread active. Just wanted to remind peeps and Steph and Cass fans should be friends. 
> 
> And Tynion doesn't post here, as far as I know. If you, JT4, 1) You are my favorite current Batman and Batfam writer, and 2) please change Cass's codename! I'm begging you!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah - #13 is truly gorgeous. I wish Takara had been given the same amount of time to plan and execute #956 as that issue.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't mind the name. I just don't mind the change either. 

#13 was the series' highlight for me. Why when I realized he was going to be at C2E2 I sought him out first, asked him to do a Cass sketch cover. Then saw he had the two pages of Cass/Bruce and inquired about a price. Two days after the con I bought those pages and this past C2E2 I got Tynion to sign them besides originally just Takara.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't mind the name. I just don't mind the change either. 
> 
> #13 was the series' highlight for me. Why when I realized he was going to be at C2E2 I sought him out first, asked him to do a Cass sketch cover. Then saw he had the two pages of Cass/Bruce and inquired about a price. Two days after the con I bought those pages and this past C2E2 I got Tynion to sign them besides originally just Takara.


Oh, man, that's so great. I cry every time I read those two pages.

----------


## Assam

buffcass.jpg

#BuffBatgirl

----------


## Assam

Is it weird that I have the occasional dream (like last night) where Cass either is made Batgirl again or has her time as Batgirl restored? 

No, no it isn't weird. Just a look at what reality should look like. 

Semi-related note, but for some reason the dream reminded me of the poll which was going on when I came to the forum about which Batgirl had the best look. For some reason I voted for Steph as I recall, and I can only blame the meds I was on.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## millernumber1

> Is it weird that I have the occasional dream (like last night) where Cass either is made Batgirl again or has her time as Batgirl restored? 
> 
> No, no it isn't weird. Just a look at what reality should look like. 
> 
> Semi-related note, but for some reason the dream reminded me of the poll which was going on when I came to the forum about which Batgirl had the best look. For some reason I voted for Steph as I recall, and I can only blame the meds I was on.


That last thing is weird.  :Wink:

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## Assam

> That last thing is weird.


Hey, Steph's look is still great and better than any suit Babs has ever worn. But the way Scott drew the suit (And in particular, the expressiveness of her mask) takes the cake for me.

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## millernumber1

> Hey, Steph's look is still great and better than any suit Babs has ever worn. But the way Scott drew the suit (And in particular, the expressiveness of her mask) takes the cake for me.


Totally fair. I'm just amused.  :Smile:

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## TheCape

Cassandra Cain is my favorite Batgirl, i read her whole series a year ago, althought not all the issue were top quality and there were many misses oportunities, the main characther always keep me going back no matter what  :Smile: .

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## Assam

> Cassandra Cain is my favorite Batgirl, i read her whole series a year ago, althought not all the issue were top quality and there were many misses oportunities, the main characther always keep me going back no matter what .


Sounds about right. I'll read anything that has a properly written Cass, regardless of the quality of every other aspect in the book.  :Smile: 

That said, it's sort of funny how easy it is to describe the quality of each of the runs of Cass's solo. Puckett's run is nearly perfect (Fight me Miller  :Stick Out Tongue: ), Horrocks' run starts bad and ends worse, but the middle portion is fantastic, with a few issues reaching Puckett quality, and Gabrych's run is basically split down the middle; the first half in Bludhaven is gold, while the final arc of the book ranges from okay to bad.

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## millernumber1

> Sounds about right. I'll read anything that has a properly written Cass, regardless of the quality of every other aspect in the book. 
> 
> That said, it's sort of funny how easy it is to describe the quality of each of the runs of Cass's solo. Puckett's run is nearly perfect (Fight me Miller ), Horrocks' run starts bad and ends worse, but the middle portion is fantastic, with a few issues reaching Puckett quality, and Gabrych's run is basically split down the middle; the first half in Bludhaven is gold, while the final arc of the book ranges from okay to bad.


Why do I have to fight you? I just don't prefer it.  :Wink:

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## Assam

> Why do I have to fight you? I just don't prefer it.


Wait, I knew you had your issues with Puckett's run, but your _prefer_ one of the others? Which? 

Also, have you read any of Puckett's other work, either Batman Adventures or Green Arrow? Cause spoilers for the latter, the man is 2 for 2 on creating legacy characters I f**king love. (Even if like most characters, Connor isn't in Cass's league)

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## millernumber1

> Wait, I knew you had your issues with Puckett's run, but your _prefer_ one of the others? Which? 
> 
> Also, have you read any of Puckett's other work, either Batman Adventures or Green Arrow? Cause spoilers for the latter, the man is 2 for 2 on creating legacy characters I f**king love. (Even if like most characters, Connor isn't in Cass's league)


I prefer Dixon writing the title, at least a couple of his issues.  :Smile:  Not the silly crossover with the Roman villains, though.  (And by "prefer," I really meant that Steph is my fave Batgirl, not that I have any specific beef with Puckett as a writer - other than Batgirl #27, which we've gone through before.)

I don't read much Green Arrow (except for Dinah), but I've read a couple Batman Adventures, and it's fine. The whole Batman The Animated Series thing wasn't something I grew up with, so I have no nostalgia for it, and it doesn't work super well for me as an adult.

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## Caivu

There's an interview with the Benson sisters in this mega-recap of SDCC, and at around 47:30 one of them says "Cassandra fans will be happy in the next arc" of Birds of Prey.

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## Assam

> I prefer Dixon writing the title, at least a couple of his issues.  Not the silly crossover with the Roman villains, though.  (And by "prefer," I really meant that Steph is my fave Batgirl, not that I have any specific beef with Puckett as a writer - other than Batgirl #27, which we've gone through before.)


You know what I recently realized about that silly Roman villain crossover? Despite the many, many instances of the three working together in pairs or alongside others, before Rebirth and Rise of the Batmen, it was pretty much the only time we ever saw Cass, Steph and Tim actively working together in the field. 




> I don't read much Green Arrow (except for Dinah), but I've read a couple Batman Adventures, and it's fine. The whole Batman The Animated Series thing wasn't something I grew up with, so I have no nostalgia for it, and it doesn't work super well for me as an adult.


Yeah, B:TAS isn't something I grew up with either and I don't fully understand the appeal honestly. The comics were pretty good though, if nothing special. 

Green Arrow is yet another case where I find the 'main' member, Oliver Queen, to be one of the least interesting ( In this case, only moreso than Nu52 additions Diggle and Henry Fyff) And while Connor Hawke isn't my favorite arrow family member either (No one is passing the Harpers anytime soon), he's still among my favorite characters. I know you're a Dixon fan (obviously) and if Oliver is your problem, Connor is almost nothing like him, so you might wanna check out his solo book at some point.

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## Assam

> There's an interview with the Benson sisters in this mega-recap of SDCC, and at around 47:30 one of them says "Cassandra fans will be happy in the next arc" of Birds of Prey.


*Screams internally*

I don't want to buy it. I _really_ don't want to support BoP. I don't want to support Babsgirl. I don't want to support Gus. I don't want to support the vilification of Oracle fans. 

F**k I have no choice in this, do I?

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## adrikito

> There's an interview with the Benson sisters in this mega-recap of SDCC, and at around 47:30 one of them says "Cassandra fans will be happy in the next arc" of Birds of Prey.


I am happy for heard this..

I found today this image and.. I like this BatCass:
cass.jpg

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## Assam

> I am happy for heard this..
> 
> I found today this image and.. I like this BatCass:
> cass.jpg


Have to take points off for the large bust size, but that aside, I always like when people draw Cass in a more manga/anime like art style (Mostly cause I really like anime and manga)

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## millernumber1

> There's an interview with the Benson sisters in this mega-recap of SDCC, and at around 47:30 one of them says "Cassandra fans will be happy in the next arc" of Birds of Prey.


I'm really excited for Cass. I'm kinda pissed that Steph is off the team, so that the crossovers with BOP and RHO are excluding her. Arg.




> You know what I recently realized about that silly Roman villain crossover? Despite the many, many instances of the three working together in pairs or alongside others, before Rebirth and Rise of the Batmen, it was pretty much the only time we ever saw Cass, Steph and Tim actively working together in the field. 
> 
> Yeah, B:TAS isn't something I grew up with either and I don't fully understand the appeal honestly. The comics were pretty good though, if nothing special. 
> 
> Green Arrow is yet another case where I find the 'main' member, Oliver Queen, to be one of the least interesting ( In this case, only moreso than Nu52 additions Diggle and Henry Fyff) And while Connor Hawke isn't my favorite arrow family member either (No one is passing the Harpers anytime soon), he's still among my favorite characters. I know you're a Dixon fan (obviously) and if Oliver is your problem, Connor is almost nothing like him, so you might wanna check out his solo book at some point.


Ooh, interesting! Dixon does love his team-ups (as seen in Bane: Conquest) - I'm really curious if he was ever interested in working on Teen Titans or Young Justice.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't completely enthralled by BTAS.  :Smile: 

It's not that Oliver or anyone is really a problem, I just don't find his core concept very interesting, and every time I read it (usually for Dinah because I love the Birds of Prey), I end up kinda underwhelmed. I generally just stay in Gotham. Cause I'm boring.




> *Screams internally*
> 
> I don't want to buy it. I _really_ don't want to support BoP. I don't want to support Babsgirl. I don't want to support Gus. I don't want to support the vilification of Oracle fans. 
> 
> F**k I have no choice in this, do I?


Hehe. If I had to bet, I'd bet that Gus will be gone in the next arc, which is the one which features Cass. I'm very curious to see what happens with her in Birds of Prey - and as a fan of the current run of Birds of Prey, I don't think at all that the Bensons villify the fans of Oracle. I think there are definite weaknesses in the series, but given the mandate of the series (Babs has to be Batgirl), they are doing a solid job of honoring the past.




> I am happy for heard this..
> 
> I found today this image and.. I like this BatCass:
> cass.jpg


That is a pretty cute one! I didn't realize it was from a comic - does anyone know which one? Or which artist?

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## Red obin

> There's an interview with the Benson sisters in this mega-recap of SDCC, and at around 47:30 one of them says "Cassandra fans will be happy in the next arc" of Birds of Prey.


On a comic con panel, I belive they said they were doing an arc featuring all the core female DC characters as there is going to be a literal man flu. Don't get your hopes up too high fellow cass fans.

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## Assam

> On a comic con panel, I belive they said they were doing an arc featuring all the core female DC characters as there is going to be a literal man flu. Don't get your hopes up too high fellow cass fans.


Well, as Cass fans, we should know by now to _never_ get our hopes up.  :Stick Out Tongue:  That said, the reason I think she may actually have a sizable role in this is because of Tynion and the Benson's tease on Twitter awhile ago that they wanted to restore the Babs and Cass relationship...even if that's basically impossible since we haven't actually seen Barabra Gordon since 2011.

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## Red obin

> Well, as Cass fans, we should know by now to _never_ get our hopes up.  That said, the reason I think she may actually have a sizable role in this is because of Tynion and the Benson's tease on Twitter awhile ago that they wanted to restore the Babs and Cass relationship...even if that's basically impossible since we haven't actually seen Barabra Gordon since 2011.


TBH,I think she might have also alluded to a 'tec team up as well as the above idea.

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## Caivu

> TBH,I think she might have also alluded to a 'tec team up as well as the above idea.


Shawna said during an SDCC panel, in reference to the upcoming arc, something like "we're borrowing your Detective girls." That's pretty close.

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## millernumber1

Welp. I'm excited to see Cass everywhere.  :Smile:

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## Red obin

I know more was said but here is the quickest source I could find.
Newsarama

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## Frontier

> I know more was said but here is the quickest source I could find.
> Newsarama


Just the idea of Supergirl possibly being in the same issue as all the Batgirls just seems kinda cool  :Wink: .

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## Assam

> Just the idea of Supergirl possibly being in the same issue as all the Batgirls just seems kinda cool .


It'd be cooler for me if one of the Batgirls wasn't an imposter, and the Supergirl in question was the well-developed and awesome Linda Danvers, as opposed to the dumpster fire of a character known as Kara Zor-El.

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## Frontier

> It'd be cooler for me if one of the Batgirls wasn't an imposter, and the Supergirl in question was the well-developed and awesome Linda Danvers, as opposed to the dumpster fire of a character known as Kara Zor-El.


Well, Babs and Kara are still valid as Batgirl and Supergirl to me, even if I've been iffy about the former's handling as of late, so I'm good  :Smile: .

I've always liked the idea of Kara having a close relationship with all the Batgirls over the years, bonding with each girl to take up the mantle in her own way.

Did Cass ever have a significant Supergirl team-up?

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## Assam

> Did Cass ever have a significant Supergirl team-up?


She did! Cass had a pretty fun team-up with Linda in a Joker's Last Laugh tie in. Cass got to beat a Bizarro, and the two had some fun interaction. 

lel.jpg

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## Assam

So..._Harper_ is seemingly going to be back in 'Tec for the Steph arc. *Deep Breath* I could deal with Tynion shoving Harper into the Cass/Steph relationship, but he'd actually need to _ let their relationship re-develop first, and stop giving moments to Harp until then._ 

tomorrow is mine.jpg

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## millernumber1

The Batgirl 50th anniversary anthology is available for 10 bucks as part of the Gail Simone sale - some nice Cass stories as part of it! And the Future's End: League of Batgirls story is on sale in the finale trade of Simone's Babsgirl run.

https://www.comixology.com/comics-sa...d=18540&lang=1

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## Assam

batgirl demons.jpg

Batgirl demons...that's actually kinda cool.

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## Caivu

> So..._Harper_ is seemingly going to be back in 'Tec for the Steph arc. *Deep Breath* I could deal with Tynion shoving Harper into the Cass/Steph relationship, but he'd actually need to _ let their relationship re-develop first, and stop giving moments to Harp until then._


 :Confused:  Am I missing something? The only thing that was said is she's probably going to be in those issues. No real indication of what she'll be doing,  or that she'll be taking Cass's spot.

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## Assam

As if I'd really let this thread fall off the first page.  :Smile: 

huh.jpg

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## Assam

So I got this idea from talking about the upcoming fight in Red Hood and the Outlaws between the 'Tec team and the Outlaws themselves, and now that I've thought of it, I need it to happen:

A Cass and Basil Fastball Special.

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## Caivu

> So I got this idea from talking about the upcoming fight in Red Hood and the Outlaws between the 'Tec team and the Outlaws themselves, and now that I've thought of it, I need it to happen:
> 
> A Cass and Basil Fastball Special.


Even better: Cass wearing Clayface as a suit, like what happened in NotMM.

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## Godzilla2099

So now with Rebirth, did DC clarify Cassandra's Origin and Skills?

Do we have old Cass back?  Or this watered down 52 version where Cass has a fraction of her strengths but all of her difficulties?

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## Assam

> So now with Rebirth, did DC clarify Cassandra's Origin and Skills?
> 
> Do we have old Cass back?  Or this watered down 52 version where Cass has a fraction of her strengths but all of her difficulties?


Cass still has her new origin (unfortunately) and we can only hope that someone will change it back down the line. 

This is still NuCass, but characterization wise, she's doing fine. We haven't seen every aspect of her old personality (her dry witted sass, her intelligence etc.) but we also haven't gotten anything that completely goes against who she is. Rather the problems with NuCass are: Her horrendous new origin, the lack of her history as Batgirl (Along with the relationships formed then), her costume (Namely the lack of the Bat), her codename (Orphan is terrible) and that she's no longer adopted. 

As for fighting abilities, she still isn't as good as she was during her Batgirl days, but she's still very clearly the strongest non-meta Bat, having beaten down 200 high-level ninjas single-handedly, and immediately going on to put the hurt on Shiva.

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## Frontier

I'm still waiting for a cape.

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## RedBird

Lonely Bat [X]

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## Frontier

> Lonely Bat [X]


Beautiful...

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## adrikito

Best friends:

cass steph friends.jpg

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## adrikito

> Lonely Bat [X]


Beautiful.... But she is sad, what a shame..

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## Assam

MY BABIES.jpg

*SQUEES!*

Okay, so I hate how white Cass is here, but it's still my favorite and 3rd favorite characters.  :Wink:

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## Park Slope Pixie

If Cass was just going to be Clayface's stooge and speaking dumb Shakespearean couplets, she'd have been better off in limbo.

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## Caivu

> If Cass was just going to be Clayface's stooge and speaking dumb Shakespearean couplets, she'd have been better off in limbo.


Then it's a good thing she's _not_ just that, isn't it?  :Smile:

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## RedBird

I just hope that the connection between Clayface and Cass is not all for naught in the end.

I mean, if Cass was going to start making deep rooted and meaningful connections with people I would have much preferred it be with Batfamily members or even other heroes like supergirl etc. Basil isnt bad here, honestly I'm liking their relationship, HOWEVER, comics are comics and I suspect Clayface will eventually become a villain again whenever the plot or another writer calls for it. I just hope all those moments built up between them aren't wasted when it all eventually has to be thrown away for the sake of character regression. In most cases I would be more confident that the writer is self aware enough to prepare and provide a satisfying departure when the time calls for it, but unfortunately Tynion hasn't proved himself to be very good at tying things together for a satisfying conclusion IMO.

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## Assam

> I just hope that the connection between Clayface and Cass is not all for naught in the end.
> 
> I mean, if Cass was going to start making deep rooted and meaningful connections with people I would have much preferred it be with Batfamily members or even other heroes like supergirl etc. Basil isnt bad here, honestly I'm liking their relationship, HOWEVER, comics are comics and I suspect Clayface will eventually become a villain again whenever the plot or another writer calls for it. I just hope all those moments built up between them aren't wasted when it all eventually has to be thrown away for the sake of character regression. In most cases I would be more confident that the writer is self aware enough to prepare and provide a satisfying departure when the time calls for it, but unfortunately Tynion hasn't proved himself to be very good at tying things together for a satisfying conclusion IMO.


As I've said before, there really are two optimal solutions.

1) Basil overcomes his condition, loses the codename associating him with Batman's rogues, and remains a full member of the BatFamily. 
2) Basil gets one last moment of awesome as a hero before 'Clayface' overcomes him entirely. From that point on, he'd be primarily a sympathetic villain toward Cass (In a better world, my 'Claymore' pitch from a few pages back would play out, and Cass would eventually find a way to cure Basil, with one of the billion other Clayfaces getting re-introduced so no one is tempted to regress him.)

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## Assam

https://whothefuckiscassandracain.tumblr.com/

Thought this was interesting. It's a tumblr account solely dedicated to a person going through all of Cass's appearances in order for the first time and writing about them, only starting off with basic knowledge about Cass and her history. They're still covering NML so it isn't hard to catch up.

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## millernumber1

> https://whothefuckiscassandracain.tumblr.com/
> 
> Thought this was interesting. It's a tumblr account solely dedicated to a person going through all of Cass's appearances in order for the first time and writing about them, only starting off with basic knowledge about Cass and her history. They're still covering NML so it isn't hard to catch up.


Very interesting idea. I've thought about doing that for n52/Rebirth Steph, but haven't gotten around to doing it.  :Smile:

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## Assam

> Very interesting idea. I've thought about doing that for n52/Rebirth Steph, but haven't gotten around to doing it.


Haven't you read all of her Post-FP appearances already though?

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## millernumber1

> Haven't you read all of her Post-FP appearances already though?


I've read every comic Steph appears in or is mentioned in at least twice. I'm more thinking about doing commentary on each issue.  :Smile:

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## Assam

> I've read every comic Steph appears in or is mentioned in at least twice. I'm more thinking about doing commentary on each issue.


Ah, gotcha.

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## omnipotentimpotent

Has anyone read Batman: City of Light 8 issue miniseries? Interested to see thoughts on the series and Cass' interactions...

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## Alycat

> https://whothefuckiscassandracain.tumblr.com/
> 
> Thought this was interesting. It's a tumblr account solely dedicated to a person going through all of Cass's appearances in order for the first time and writing about them, only starting off with basic knowledge about Cass and her history. They're still covering NML so it isn't hard to catch up.


I follow this writer and they write some of my favorite Arkham games stories. They don't read comics so it's interesting to see how that can influence character interpretation when you go back to read them.

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## Assam

> Has anyone read Batman: City of Light 8 issue miniseries? Interested to see thoughts on the series and Cass' interactions...


Horrible. H O R R I B L E!  The writer did not get Cass at all.

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## omnipotentimpotent

> Horrible. H O R R I B L E!  The writer did not get Cass at all.


i picked it up recently on ebay in my quest to have everything Cass has been in.....and my goodness it was horrific. Cass and Bruce were both insanely bad. i follow this thread and use it to stay up on Cass, but lurk in the shadows since most of you are WAY more versed on her-but wanted to see if i was missing something in this mini. Thanks!

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## omnipotentimpotent

> I follow this writer and they write some of my favorite Arkham games stories. They don't read comics so it's interesting to see how that can influence character interpretation when you go back to read them.


and since i came out to ask a question, i wanted to reply to this, too: THIS WRITER IS AMAZING!!!! i'm sitting at work reading the first post about #567 and rolling. its perfection.

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## Assam

So fakeBabs is now both Batgirl AND Oracle. I hate everything so much.

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## Assam

Just 10 more days till FlameCon. 10 more days till I can ask Tynion some questions which have been burning in my brain for months, and hopefully get some optimism that the problems with currentCass will be resolved in the near future. (And yes, I thought of how to ask them in a polite way)

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## Assam

peck on the cheek.jpg

shh1.jpg

shh2.jpg

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## millernumber1

> Just 10 more days till FlameCon. 10 more days till I can ask Tynion some questions which have been burning in my brain for months, and hopefully get some optimism that the problems with currentCass will be resolved in the near future. (And yes, I thought of how to ask them in a polite way)


Oooh, please tell me what the questions are, since I'm hoping to see Tynion at Baltimore Comic Con, and don't want to double up!

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## adrikito

> peck on the cheek.jpg
> 
> shh1.jpg
> 
> shh2.jpg


Now I remember the last Detective Comics chapter... 

Batwoman said.. *I want to marry her* (Zatanna) and Cass said *Yes*.... one friend told me... Confirmed Cass is gay.. In my opinion, she can be Bisexual(Open mind)..  What is your opinion?

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## Assam

> Oooh, please tell me what the questions are, since I'm hoping to see Tynion at Baltimore Comic Con, and don't want to double up!


Well, as I said (I think on the last page), there are 5 main problems with currentCass. One of them is over Tynion's head (Restoring her history as Batgirl) and one there's really no polite way to ask about (Her s**ty new origin), so I'm going to be asking things related to the other three. 

1) You've said it does so on Twitter several times, but following League of Shadows, where Cass seemed to fully embrace her new family, why do you still feel "Orphan" speaks to her character? (Depending on his response, I may or may not try to bring up fan displeasure with it.) 

2) Seeing as how it meant the world to her Pre-Flashpoint, and especially with all the other characters wearing it, is there a reason why isn't Cass wearing the Bat?

3) (Intentionally vague because it goes into spoiler territory) Bruce adopting Cass is one of the few things fans love from after her solo book ended. Is Cass getting adopted again something you'd like to see happen? 

I imagine there wasn't going to be any overlap since I'd guess all of your questions are about Steph.  :Smile:

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## Assam

> What is your opinion?


Well, the "Yes" in 'Tec certainly made me happy. In my mind, between the attraction she's shown towards both men and women, and the matter of how she was raised without being made aware of societal norms or even the _concept_ of gender, I've always headcanoned her as Pansexual.

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## Katana500

> Well, as I said (I think on the last page), there are 5 main problems with currentCass. One of them is over Tynion's head (Restoring her history as Batgirl) and one there's really no polite way to ask about (Her s**ty new origin), so I'm going to be asking things related to the other three. 
> 
> 1) You've said it does so on Twitter several times, but following League of Shadows, where Cass seemed to fully embrace her new family, why do you still feel "Orphan" speaks to her character? (Depending on his response, I may or may not try to bring up fan displeasure with it.) 
> 
> 2) Seeing as how it meant the world to her Pre-Flashpoint, and especially with all the other characters wearing it, is there a reason why isn't Cass wearing the Bat?
> 
> 3) (Intentionally vague because it goes into spoiler territory) Bruce adopting Cass is one of the few things fans love from after her solo book ended. Is Cass getting adopted again something you'd like to see happen? 
> 
> I imagine there wasn't going to be any overlap since I'd guess all of your questions are about Steph.


If you find out answers! You have to tell us Assam! I want to know everything  :Smile:

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## millernumber1

> Well, as I said (I think on the last page), there are 5 main problems with currentCass. One of them is over Tynion's head (Restoring her history as Batgirl) and one there's really no polite way to ask about (Her s**ty new origin), so I'm going to be asking things related to the other three. 
> 
> 1) You've said it does so on Twitter several times, but following League of Shadows, where Cass seemed to fully embrace her new family, why do you still feel "Orphan" speaks to her character? (Depending on his response, I may or may not try to bring up fan displeasure with it.) 
> 
> 2) Seeing as how it meant the world to her Pre-Flashpoint, and especially with all the other characters wearing it, is there a reason why isn't Cass wearing the Bat?
> 
> 3) (Intentionally vague because it goes into spoiler territory) Bruce adopting Cass is one of the few things fans love from after her solo book ended. Is Cass getting adopted again something you'd like to see happen? 
> 
> I imagine there wasn't going to be any overlap since I'd guess all of your questions are about Steph.


Actually, I have several questions in my list about Cass - two duplicate, about Cass's codename (I would definitely bring up fan reaction to it), and her adoption. I'm also hoping to ask him whether the rumors I keep hearing are true, that Harper Row was created because Scott Snyder couldn't use Steph or Cass. So I hope to hear what you find out, so I can either ask follow ups in addition to my own list of Steph, Cass, and Tim related questions, or not waste his time.  :Smile:

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## Assam

> I'm also hoping to ask him whether the rumors I keep hearing are true, that Harper Row was created because Scott Snyder couldn't use Steph or Cass.


Ooh, the rumor so widespread, most pretty much accept it as fact. Very interested in hearing his response to this (Even if there's a chance it's the kind of thing he might fudge the truth about) May also want to bring up the idea that Snyder wanted Cass at the gala in the very first NuBatman issue. 




> So I hope to hear what you find out, so I can either ask follow ups in addition to my own list of Steph, Cass, and Tim related questions, or not waste his time.


Yes! Strategizing! Follow-up questions based on the answers he gives me aren't a bad idea at all.

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## millernumber1

> Ooh, the rumor so widespread, most pretty much accept it as fact. Very interested in hearing his response to this (Even if there's a chance it's the kind of thing he might fudge the truth about) May also want to bring up the idea that Snyder wanted Cass at the gala in the very first NuBatman issue. 
> 
> Yes! Strategizing! Follow-up questions based on the answers he gives me aren't a bad idea at all.


I do not accept it unless I actually find it in writing. I've asked everyone who's repeated the rumor where they heard it, and no one has given me a solid enough answer for me to trust it.

Look forward to hearing your report! Also, he's such a nice guy, who clearly loves writing these characters, so I think he's a blast to talk to.

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## Sardorim

Is Cassandra now a lesbian in the new canon? When Batwoman said that she wanted to marry Zatanna, Cass said Yes in agreement.

Not sure the issue but it was recent, a friend showed me.

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## Assam

> Is Cassandra now a lesbian in the new canon? When Batwoman said that she wanted to marry Zatanna, Cass said Yes in agreement.
> 
> Not sure the issue but it was recent, a friend showed me.


'Tec #962

pancass.jpg

Not a lesbian since, even in the days of Cass's solo book, she showed attraction toward both guys and girls.  I've always thought of her as pansexual.

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## TheCape

> Not a lesbian since, even in the days of Cass's solo book, she showed attraction toward both guys and girls. I've always thought of her as pansexual.


I don't remenber any explicit atraction toward girls, execept with Stepth (and i put that in a maybe). but i think that could be interpreted as she being looking for affection.

----------


## Assam

> I don't remenber any explicit atraction toward girls, execept with Stepth (and i put that in a maybe). but i think that could be interpreted as she being looking for affection.


This "yes" IS the closest thing we've gotten toward anything explicit, but I think very good cases can be made that held an attraction toward both Steph and Brenda Miller.

----------


## Assam

> Attachment 52973
> 
> Each one was added by a different person with their own derogatory comment. This is not the first time this scene has been ridiculed, nor should it ever stop being ridiculed, because you KNOW there are some people out there who WOULD like the BatFam to be just the characters drawn in that panel. I don't care about King's run at all, but this seriously got under my skin.


10characters

----------


## Assam

sejic batfam.jpg

This is from a number of years ago, but I'd never seen it before, and it's still awesome. FREAKING. SEJIC. BATFAM. 

Considering he's actually working at DC now, imagine if he actually did get to, say, do an arc on 'Tec once his time on Aquaman was over. (Not sure if I actually want this since Aquaman as a title has never looked better) 

Also, I'll personally never really care for an armored Cass, but we can add this to the LONG list of designs better than the Orphan suit.

----------


## Old Man Ollie 1962

Wow. I never knew!  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> sejic batfam.jpg
> 
> This is from a number of years ago, but I'd never seen it before, and it's still awesome. FREAKING. SEJIC. BATFAM. 
> 
> Considering he's actually working at DC now, imagine if he actually did get to, say, do an arc on 'Tec once his time on Aquaman was over. (Not sure if I actually want this since Aquaman as a title has never looked better) 
> 
> Also, I'll personally never really care for an armored Cass, but we can add this to the LONG list of designs better than the Orphan suit.


Stjepan Sejic needs to draw everybody  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Assam

So apparently, in this week's issue of Batwoman, we're getting to see a BadFuture where Kate is leading the colony, Jason is with her and rocking a bitchin eyepatch, cane and trenchcoat, Bruce and Julia are dead, and Tim is Batman. 

Calling it now: They're gonna have Cass be the new Batwoman in this future. 

I'd say they'd just exclude her from this future, or have her dead, but both Bennett and Tynion are fans. 

And while Tim being Batman instead of Cass proves that this is a future that needs to be averted, I'll admit, I'm tempted to see what kind of design they'd go for, and not JUST because I really want to see Cass wearing the damn Bat again.

----------


## Agent Z

> So apparently, in this week's issue of Batwoman, we're getting to see a BadFuture where Kate is leading the colony, Jason is with her and rocking a bitchin eyepatch, cane and trenchcoat, Bruce and Julia are dead, and Tim is Batman. 
> 
> Calling it now: They're gonna have Cass be the new Batwoman in this future. 
> 
> I'd say they'd just exclude her from this future, or have her dead, but both Bennett and Tynion are fans. 
> 
> And while Tim being Batman instead of Cass proves that this is a future that needs to be averted, I'll admit, I'm tempted to see what kind of design they'd go for, and not JUST because I really want to see Cass wearing the damn Bat again.


This wouldn't happen to be the same bad future those kids from Hickman's are from, is it?

----------


## Assam

> This wouldn't happen to be the same bad future those kids from Hickman's are from, is it?


You mean Hitch? Nah, I'm pretty sure this is entirely unrelated to Justice League. (I WISH Hickman were writing Justice League instead)

----------


## Agent Z

> You mean Hitch? Nah, I'm pretty sure this is entirely unrelated to Justice League. (I WISH Hickman were writing Justice League instead)


Yeah I meant Hitch. Don't know why I said Hickman.

----------


## Assam

Do you guys think from Solo #10 that Damion Scott is/was a TimCass shipper, or was it just a fun story he wanted to write?

----------


## millernumber1

> Do you guys think from Solo #10 that Damion Scott is/was a TimCass shipper, or was it just a fun story he wanted to write?


I read it as massive shipping.  :Smile:  (Which I disagree with, but it's fun enough.)

----------


## TheCape

> Assam
> 
>     Do you guys think from Solo #10 that Damion Scott is/was a TimCass shipper, or was it just a fun story he wanted to write?


I can't find it, but i remenber an interview when he said something about the 2 being attracted to eacht other.

Personally i always saw as both having a mutual interest, but for many reasons they just decided to not go for it.

----------


## adrikito

> Wow. I never knew!


hahahahaha.. You are RIGHT.

----------


## Assam

rendition.jpg

batfam.jpg

pansexual cassie cain.jpg

----------


## godisawesome

> Do you guys think from Solo #10 that Damion Scott is/was a TimCass shipper, or was it just a fun story he wanted to write?


Well, at the time, Tim finding Cass attractive was canon fact; his reaction to her in Babs costume was pretty much lust-struck puppy, and I still love how his response to Kon's question of whether or not Cass was hot was "She's on _fire_." Now, I don't think Cass ever showed attraction towards Tim beyond the heel-turn-that-shall-not-be-named. And I'm unclear as to when Scott was on either book and when he may have drawn both characters previous to Solo.

I will admit to a bit of a soft spot for a TimCass pairing, largely because I like the contrast between their skills, strengths, and comparative social skills.

----------


## Assam

> Well, at the time, Tim finding Cass attractive was canon fact; his reaction to her in Babs costume was pretty much lust-struck puppy, and I still love how his response to Kon's question of whether or not Cass was hot was "She's on _fire_."


Yeah, that was all pretty fun. 




> And I'm unclear as to when Scott was on either book and when he may have drawn both characters previous to Solo.


Scott drew the majority of the Puckett run, having created Cass alongside him. As for Tim, he drew 8 issues of Robin, including the StephRobin issues and the Fresh Blood Crossover. 




> I will admit to a bit of a soft spot for a TimCass pairing, largely because I like the contrast between their skills, strengths, and comparative social skills.


For me, the two work best as bros. My thoughts on who I ship Cass have been spoken of a number of times, but apart from Steph, Tim really should be the person (her own age) that she's closest with. Their friendship was incredibly genuine, and like you said, their contrasting skills and social capabilities is great. It's why the dream of a book that's just Cass, Steph and Tim working together is more than just "Oh, that silly 90's nostalgia", no, the three contrast and reflect each other beautifully. No redundancy at all in personality or skills, and, as the team-ups between the three (as duos mostly) have shown, when they're all written in character, you almost always get a great story. 

Had the Nu52 not happened, I think it would have been cool to see Cass become the co-star of Red Robin.(Based on interviews, I think this would have been a better move than BQM becoming her primary writer, although guest spots in Batgirl were a thing that should have already been happening within the 24 issues we got there.)

----------


## TheCape

When it comes to shipping the 90s kids (Tim, Steph and Cass) i always been neutral. I like Tim/Steph just fine and the dynamics of Cass/Steph and Tim/Cass are interesting enought for me to give then a try, but i'm not really passional about those 3 characthers in the romantic side of things.

That being said, i agreed, a team beetween those 3 would be great.

----------


## godisawesome

> Yeah, that was all pretty fun. 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott drew the majority of the Puckett run, having created Cass alongside him. As for Tim, he drew 8 issues of Robin, including the StephRobin issues and the Fresh Blood Crossover. 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the two work best as bros. My thoughts on who I ship Cass have been spoken of a number of times, but apart from Steph, Tim really should be the person (her own age) that she's closest with. Their friendship was incredibly genuine, and like you said, their contrasting skills and social capabilities is great. It's why the dream of a book that's just Cass, Steph and Tim working together is more than just "Oh, that silly 90's nostalgia", no, the three contrast and reflect each other beautifully. No redundancy at all in personality or skills, and, as the team-ups between the three (as duos mostly) have shown, when they're all written in character, you almost always get a great story. 
> ...


I still salivate at the thought of Tim and Cass encountering some Cricket guy who becomes Cass's new challenger.

----------


## millernumber1

> I still salivate at the thought of Tim and Cass encountering some Cricket guy who becomes Cass's new challenger.


I really wish that had been more fleshed out. It felt really forced the way it was presented, but more because the series was ending, I think.  And that To art...ugh.

----------


## Assam

> I really wish that had been more fleshed out. It felt really forced the way it was presented, but more because the series was ending, I think.  And that To art...ugh.


I've had a few story ideas about Cass and Tim dealing with Cricket, going off the bare minimum we know about him. And yeah, To's art is amazing. Definitely my favorite artist for the original Red Robin and Black Bat suits.

----------


## millernumber1

> I've had a few story ideas about Cass and Tim dealing with Cricket, going off the bare minimum we know about him. And yeah, To's art is amazing. Definitely my favorite artist for the original Red Robin and Black Bat suits.


Still so mad he's not on Nightwing anymore.  His stuff is so clean and appealing - he deserves to be a massive star.

----------


## batnbreakfast

Hey where's Vol. 4 of Batgirl? Its been some time since Vol. 3 ... is it cancelled?

----------


## millernumber1

> Hey where's Vol. 4 of Batgirl? Its been some time since Vol. 3 ... is it cancelled?


As far as I know, we only have speculation. But like volume 4 of Birds of Prey, and volume 2 of Azrael, one guesses there's a sales problem - while Tim's Robin series reprints are selling reasonably well (I used to work at a bookstore, and checked their sales records for these trades, and Tim sold about twice as many copies as Cass or the Birds, sadly), the other reprints aren't, so they're not planning on more unless there's a groundswell of sales or something. A real shame, since I think having full runs reprinted on glossy paper rather than the fading newsprint of the original hard copies would be really nice.

----------


## Assam

From the Steph thread: 



> Barbara is trying to make of Oracle and batgirl according the interview(something that we all imaginated)... What a shame that we can´t return with the Steph Batgirl with Barbara as Oracle again..


For the record, if DC, by some cosmic alignment of the planets, ever allowed Babs to become Oracle again (And I don't mean the idiocy currently going on in BoP), but had Steph, and ONLY Steph become Batgirl, I freely admit that I would throw the BIGGEST hissy fit.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Though more seriously, it would probably be the final dividing line that could start to genuinely turn me off from Steph, sad a thought as that is.

----------


## adrikito

> From the Steph thread: 
> 
> 
> For the record, if DC, by some cosmic alignment of the planets, ever allowed Babs to become Oracle again (And I don't mean the idiocy currently going on in BoP), but had Steph, and ONLY Steph become Batgirl, I freely admit that I would throw the BIGGEST hissy fit.  Though more seriously, it would probably be the final dividing line that could start to genuinely turn me off from Steph, sad a thought as that is.


Sorry, I only said that for continue(in this) as if N52 never happened(in certain way).. Cass would return as Black Bat, I said previosly that David Cain return(one day) will erase Orphan and she will use probably Black Bat name again.... 

I can understand that make this for Steph and no change Cass situation is cruel, create hate between fans of both characters, even if they are friends in the comics..

*HOWEVER, Steph can continue as Spoiler without problem, after Young Justice more people will know her as Spoiler than Batgirl or Robin..*

----------


## TheCape

> For the record, if DC, by some cosmic alignment of the planets, ever allowed Babs to become Oracle again (And I don't mean the idiocy currently going on in BoP), but had Steph, and ONLY Steph become Batgirl, I freely admit that I would throw the BIGGEST hissy fit. Though more seriously, it would probably be the final dividing line that could start to genuinely turn me off from Steph, sad a thought as that is.


We all know that Cass would became the next Robin if this happens  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

BGBOP_Cv16.jpg

BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #16

Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
Art by ROGE ANTONIO
Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA

“Manslaughter” part two! As an illness that affects half of Gotham City’s population grows, Batgirl, Black Canary and Huntress pick up some unexpected help from Catwoman, Ivy and Harley, as well as some welcome backup from Batwoman, Spoiler, Gotham Girl and Wonder Woman. But as the Birds of Prey grow closer to discovering the source of the outbreak, what they find won’t end the plague and might only make it grow faster.

On sale NOVEMBER 8 • 32 pg, FC, $3.99 US • RATED T

----------


## Red obin

> BGBOP_Cv16.jpg
> 
> BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #16
> 
> Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
> Art by ROGE ANTONIO
> Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
> Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
> 
> ...


Shame Cass is left out the solicitation.

----------


## Assam

> Shame Cass is left out the solicitation.


Not surprised. She was left out of the solicit for League of Shadows, HER arc, too. 

I wonder if the people who write the solicits realize how unappealing Orphan is as a name like all the fans

----------


## Nick Miller

It's so bad, I'm not a fan of her generic outfit either

Won't someone please do something!!! Haha

----------


## Rogue Star

She really does feel like the "orphan" or at least the red-headed step-child of the Batfamily.  I mean, that mask just looks so bad without the bat ears. Anyway, I can't stand 80% a lot of those females so I'm probably going to pretend this book doesn't exist.

----------


## Assam

> She really does feel like the "orphan" or at least the red-headed step-child of the Batfamily.


Only in the meta sense. In story, she should be core BatFam and"Orphan" makes no sense for several reasons. 




> I mean, that mask just looks so bad without the bat ears.


Some people have photoshopped ears onto the suit, and those alone make the costume look better. (Not great, but better) 




> Anyway, I can't stand 80% a lot of those females so I'm probably going to pretend this book doesn't exist.


80 % huh? Personally, while the only other characters there I'd say I'm a fan of are Steph, Dinah, Helena and Lois, the only ones I actively dislike there are Harley, Claire, and FakeBabs.

----------


## Frontier

> BGBOP_Cv16.jpg
> 
> BATGIRL AND THE BIRDS OF PREY #16
> 
> Written by JULIE BENSON and SHAWNA BENSON
> Art by ROGE ANTONIO
> Cover by YANICK PAQUETTE
> Variant cover by KAMOME SHIRAHAMA
> 
> ...


Looks awesome  :Smile: .

Makes me miss Cass' old look though. The Orphan one doesn't work as well with that pose  :Frown: .

----------


## Rogue Star

> 80 % huh? Personally, while the only other characters there I'd say I'm a fan of are Steph, Dinah, Helena and Lois, the only ones I actively dislike there are Harley, Claire, and FakeBabs.


Okay, I wasn't being completely fair. The number isn't 80% but I was so fixated on the characters that I don't care to read about that it actually blinded me a little bit. lol.  I'm mostly apathetic toward the majority of those females. It's just a few (like Harley and Catwoman mostly) who just repel me.

----------


## Rogue Star

And I used to like Harley in the animated series in the 90's but I borderline loathe her now.  I mean, *really* dislike her.

----------


## Aahz

> It's so bad, I'm not a fan of her generic outfit either


She is not the only charcter on this cover, who should get a new costume.

----------


## Assam

> Looks awesome .
> 
> Makes me miss Cass' old look though. The Orphan one doesn't work as well with that pose .


You're always the one to bring it up, and here, you're most certainly right: You need a cape to make that pose work. 




> Okay, I wasn't being completely fair. The number isn't 80% but I was so fixated on the characters that I don't care to read about that it actually blinded me a little bit. lol.  I'm mostly apathetic toward the majority of those females. It's just a few (like Harley and Catwoman mostly) who just repel me.


I'm with you on Harley, but personally I'm completely and utterly apathetic toward Selina. Do not care about her at all. 




> She is not the only charcter on this cover, who should get a new costume.


True, but her's IS the worst.

----------


## Aahz

> True, but her's IS the worst.


I have to agree, but Barbara and Helena had also way better costumes in the past.

----------


## Assam

> I have to agree, but Barbara and Helena had also way better costumes in the past.


Helena? Definitely. Babs? Aside from the casual looks she sported through her time as Oracle, this is honestly my favorite look for her, at least as far as the comics go. (Truth be told, I really don't _like_ any Babsgirl suits.)

----------


## Frontier

> Helena? Definitely. Babs? Aside from the casual looks she sported through her time as Oracle, this is honestly my favorite look for her, at least as far as the comics go. (Truth be told, I really don't _like_ any Babsgirl suits.)


I like the Burnside suit under a specific context but at this point it's my least favorite Babs look. I'm just so over it and what it's defined for Batgirl now (but, truth be told, I generally love all of Babs' costumes  :Stick Out Tongue: ). 

I think Helena's new suit works well as an attempt to bring back her iconic Huntress look while honoring her Grayson past, though I don't think bringing back any of Helena's Post-Crisis looks would work as well since she doesn't look like Post-Crisis Helena.

----------


## millernumber1

> Helena? Definitely. Babs? Aside from the casual looks she sported through her time as Oracle, this is honestly my favorite look for her, at least as far as the comics go. (Truth be told, I really don't _like_ any Babsgirl suits.)


I really like her Year One suit. But I don't know if that's just because I like Year One. I do tend to have a problem with liking a design if I like the run it was in.

----------


## Assam

daniel cass.jpg

By Tony S. Daniel

----------


## Frontier

> daniel cass.jpg
> 
> By Tony S. Daniel


Pretty  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

Much as he's not my favorite artist, I did enjoy Tony Daniel's rendering of Cass in Batman and Robin Eternal #1.

----------


## Assam

> Much as he's not my favorite artist, I did enjoy Tony Daniel's rendering of Cass in Batman and Robin Eternal #1.


You wanna talk about artists with mixed work? 

Remember the other day we were talking about Convergence: Batgirl, and in particular, Leonardi's strangely weak art? Well I'd somehow forgotten that he did the art for the (fantastic) middle portion of the Horrocks run on Cass's book. 

How someone goes from this: 

leonardi.jpg

and THIS

cass crying.jpg

to_ this_ 

THIS.jpg

is beyond me.

----------


## godisawesome

I chalk it up to everything about the Convergence issues being a rushed job.

----------


## millernumber1

> You wanna talk about artists with mixed work? 
> 
> Remember the other day we were talking about Convergence: Batgirl, and in particular, Leonardi's strangely weak art? Well I'd somehow forgotten that he did the art for the (fantastic) middle portion of the Horrocks run on Cass's book. 
> 
> How someone goes from this: 
> 
> leonardi.jpg
> 
> and THIS
> ...


Yeah, it's kinda horrifying. I'm so frustrated by that issue.




> I chalk it up to everything about the Convergence issues being a rushed job.


Maybe. I talked to the colorist for that issue, and specifically asked him if it was rushed, and he didn't sound like it.

----------


## Aahz

> I like the Burnside suit under a specific context but at this point it's my least favorite Babs look. I'm just so over it and what it's defined for Batgirl now (but, truth be told, I generally love all of Babs' costumes ).


it workers for Burnside and maybe for a Guest Appearence in Gotham Academy but not for much else. It looks to much like something a teen age hero how just starts would ware, and not a vetaran Batfamily member.




> I think Helena's new suit works well as an attempt to bring back her iconic Huntress look while honoring her Grayson past, though I don't think bringing back any of Helena's Post-Crisis looks would work as well since she doesn't look like Post-Crisis Helena.


But pre flashpoint Helena looked much better (or at least some of her costumes, she had also some that were not so great).

----------


## Aahz

> Helena? Definitely. Babs? Aside from the casual looks she sported through her time as Oracle, this is honestly my favorite look for her, at least as far as the comics go. (Truth be told, I really don't _like_ any Babsgirl suits.)


The desgin might be a little bit dated but somthing like this


Looks imo just way cooler than the current design.

----------


## Assam

FlameCon tomorrow! WOOH! 

I mentioned the three questions I plan on asking Tynion previously, but, over the past few days, I've realized I've been in denial about just HOW different CurrentCass is from Cass. As such, I'm considering asking a 4th question: 

" Both in writing and in art, Cass has been presented as much more youthful and much less mature than she ever was Pre-Flashpoint. Has this been intentional?" 

I feel that this is the most polite way to phrase it, and it's open ended enough that, if I have time, I can bring up specific differences between the Cass's. 

P.S. Millernumber1, I thought about it, and yeah, I am going to bring up negative fan-reaction to the Orphan name. I won't be a d**k and harp on it, but I'll bring it up.

----------


## Katana500

Did you find out the answers to your questions Assam?  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

By Stephanie Hans:

IMG_20170820_120045.jpg

----------


## Rogue Star

Nice. *pockets this*

----------


## Assam

> Did you find out the answers to your questions Assam?


Just did, and I'm taking a brief break from con fun to share what I learned. I've got 2 pieces of good news, 1 piece of neutral news and 1 piece of bad news. 

Starting with the good:

ORPHAN IS NOT PERMANENT HALELUJAH! He says that shes "starting" to have trouble with the name, and that it'll be resolved when the thread about what Shiva whispered to her is.

The other good? HE WANTS BRUCE TO ADOPT HER AGAIN! Yeeeeees! And after saying that its something he'd like to see happen, he stuttered and said those golden words "All I can say." THIS. IS. HAPPENING.  :Smile: 

For the neutral piece of news is her characterization.  Tynion HASN'T intentionally changed her, and he genuinely believes he's writing NML era Cass. Meaning, this is just down to his writing ability. Not great, but he did at least say he plans to have her grow once nore. What his take on a more grown Cass will be like, I can only imagine. 

And lastly, the bad. AKA The Orphan Costume. Specifically, the lack of a bat symbol and ears. As it turns out, Tynion and Snyder WANTED her to at least have her classic bat outline (he didnt mention the ears) However, the enemy of all that is good, AKA DC editorial, said that they dont want her wearing the bat, because they don't want people to confuse her with Babsgirl. I pointed out how EVERYONE is wearing the bat now from Luke to Duke to even another woman, Kate...and he seemed to agree how ridiculous it was, but he said it is what it is, and we shouldn't expect her wearing the bat in the near future. 

Everything in mind, I'm ecstatic about those first two things (and more curious regarding what name Cass will get if not Batgirl or Black Bat), and at least for the less great news, I at least know where to properly aim my frustration.

----------


## Frontier

I could at least live with them giving her the cape back, but it would be kinda weird without the ears and bat-symbol.

----------


## Katana500

Awesome news! Did he say anything else of note regarding any other characters.

I could possibly see them tieing in Cass dropping the Orphan name to being adopted by Bruce. No matter what happens I cannot wait for Bruce to get his daughter back!

----------


## millernumber1

> Just did, and I'm taking a brief break from con fun to share what I learned. I've got 2 pieces of good news, 1 piece of neutral news and 1 piece of bad news. 
> 
> Starting with the good:
> 
> ORPHAN IS NOT PERMANENT HALELUJAH! He says that shes "starting" to have trouble with the name, and that it'll be resolved when the thread about what Shiva whispered to her is.
> 
> The other good? HE WANTS BRUCE TO ADOPT HER AGAIN! Yeeeeees! And after saying that its something he'd like to see happen, he stuttered and said those golden words "All I can say." THIS. IS. HAPPENING. 
> 
> For the neutral piece of news is her characterization.  Tynion HASN'T intentionally changed her, and he genuinely believes he's writing NML era Cass. Meaning, this is just down to his writing ability. Not great, but he did at least say he plans to have her grow once nore. What his take on a more grown Cass will be like, I can only imagine. 
> ...


1) Thank you for doing this! It's so important to let creators know how fans feel about stuff!

2) I was wondering about the whole "Shiva whispering" - since that's clearly part of "Tynion's 1000" plot arc.  Good to know that he's not stuck with Orphan! Very, very good!

3) Wow! That's amazing! I hope desperately that he does prevail and have Bruce adopt her! It would be so great!

4) Wut. Editorial banned the ears? Ugh. UGH UGH UGH.

That being said, I don't totally hate her costume, and I'm much more excited about a new name and adoption than a new costume. WOOHOOOOOOOO!

----------


## Korath

Cass adopted in the Wayne family again ? That is worth alone my first post in the appreciation thread for the best female character in the Bat-family. I'm also glad she will evolve from Orphan. I was okay with this nickname when she took it, I found that, considering the way she was reintroduced in the New 52 but I'm glad she is growing out of it. Now, she better becomes Blackbat or something of the like !

----------


## Caivu

Another by Stephanie Hans:

Screenshot_20170820-181348.jpg

----------


## Assam

beut.jpg

beut2.jpg

Both EXCELLENT

----------


## Frontier

Can never get enough of Stephanie Hans art  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## godisawesome

> Just did, and I'm taking a brief break from con fun to share what I learned. I've got 2 pieces of good news, 1 piece of neutral news and 1 piece of bad news. 
> 
> Starting with the good:
> 
> ORPHAN IS NOT PERMANENT HALELUJAH! He says that shes "starting" to have trouble with the name, and that it'll be resolved when the thread about what Shiva whispered to her is.
> 
> The other good? HE WANTS BRUCE TO ADOPT HER AGAIN! Yeeeeees! And after saying that its something he'd like to see happen, he stuttered and said those golden words "All I can say." THIS. IS. HAPPENING. 
> 
> For the neutral piece of news is her characterization.  Tynion HASN'T intentionally changed her, and he genuinely believes he's writing NML era Cass. Meaning, this is just down to his writing ability. Not great, but he did at least say he plans to have her grow once nore. What his take on a more grown Cass will be like, I can only imagine. 
> ...


That bit about bat-ears and Bat-symbols on Cass's costume being _verboten_ still stinks of paranoia and distrust about the Batgirl IP by itself on top of an apathy towards the character of Cass. 

It still sounds like they're whining "People are too stupid and impressionable to identify that the girl in an almost pitch black costume is a different one from the purple clad redhead," or "The Batgirl brand is so weak we don't dare dilute it by allowing any other character to have ever officially held the mantle or anything like it." Which is stupid in and of itself, but also almost shockingly unambitious and hypocritical when they're also saying "You know what we should do in the New 52? Put three of the boy Robins in suspiciously similar costumes and color schemes with the exact same domino mask! And launch an entire book about a _vigilante street gang_ all dressed as and called Robin! And in Rebirth, will just make Tim Drake look even more like his old Robin suit!"

----------


## Frontier

> That bit about bat-ears and Bat-symbols on Cass's costume being _verboten_ still stinks of paranoia and distrust about the Batgirl IP by itself on top of an apathy towards the character of Cass. 
> 
> It still sounds like they're whining "People are too stupid and impressionable to identify that the girl in an almost pitch black costume is a different one from the purple clad redhead," or "The Batgirl brand is so weak we don't dare dilute it by allowing any other character to have ever officially held the mantle or anything like it." Which is stupid in and of itself, but also almost shockingly unambitious and hypocritical when they're also saying "You know what we should do in the New 52? Put three of the boy Robins in suspiciously similar costumes and color schemes with the exact same domino mask! And launch an entire book about a _vigilante street gang_ all dressed as and called Robin! And in Rebirth, will just make Tim Drake look even more like his old Robin suit!"


Well, to be fair, Babs' more traditional costume is also almost pitch-black aside from her hair and some yellow  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> That bit about bat-ears and Bat-symbols on Cass's costume being _verboten_ still stinks of paranoia and distrust about the Batgirl IP by itself on top of an apathy towards the character of Cass. 
> 
> It still sounds like they're whining "People are too stupid and impressionable to identify that the girl in an almost pitch black costume is a different one from the purple clad redhead," or "The Batgirl brand is so weak we don't dare dilute it by allowing any other character to have ever officially held the mantle or anything like it." Which is stupid in and of itself, but also almost shockingly unambitious and hypocritical when they're also saying "You know what we should do in the New 52? Put three of the boy Robins in suspiciously similar costumes and color schemes with the exact same domino mask! And launch an entire book about a _vigilante street gang_ all dressed as and called Robin! And in Rebirth, will just make Tim Drake look even more like his old Robin suit!"


To be fair, the Robin brand does, as far as I know, tend to sell more than the Batgirl brand, if we discount DC Super Hero Girls (and I'd like to see what the numbers for a generic or boy-centric similarly aged line would sell like before I could make a real determination - DCSHG seems to be pretty much selling in a vacuum in that age bracket, or at least only competing with princesses or the other themed high school brands).

Also, I really liked all of the We Are Robin members except Duke and Izzy.  :Smile:  Who were, of course, the ones who were being pushed as the main characters. Especially poor Troy!

ALL THAT BEINGS SAID: I do think the Batgirl brand may be weaker than the Robin brand, but not weak enough to justify deleting Steph and Cass as Batgirl, or fragile enough to treat like any hint of taking away Babs's "Iconic" look will "distract." Especially since they just went and gave Kate her own solo.




> Well, to be fair, Babs' more traditional costume is also almost pitch-black aside from her hair and some yellow .


That's only the n52 costume, isn't it? She was grey, blue, and yellow in most of the appearances before the n52 that I've read. And her flashbacks in Batgirl coming up seem to be more in line with the secret origins costume, I think?

----------


## Frontier

> That's only the n52 costume, isn't it? She was grey, blue, and yellow in most of the appearances before the n52 that I've read. And her flashbacks in Batgirl coming up seem to be more in line with the secret origins costume, I think?


It started as grey, blue, and yellow but I think it morphed into a full black suit with yellow emblem and cape that I think has generally been pretty consistent for Babs late Bronze age/Post-Crisis and in _The New Batman Adventures_.

The New 52 did make her original suit grey and blue before she went back to black for the main suit in the Simone run.

----------


## millernumber1

> It started as grey, blue, and yellow but I think it morphed into a full black suit with yellow emblem and cape that I think has generally been pretty consistent for Babs late Bronze age/Post-Crisis and in _The New Batman Adventures_.
> 
> The New 52 did make her original suit grey and blue before she went back to black for the main suit in the Simone run.


Ah. Well, that would explain it - my pre-Crisis knowledge is pretty darn weak.

----------


## Atlanta96

While it's good that Orphan is not a permanent name, DC's refusal to let her wear the Bat-Symbol indicates that they are still strongly biased against Cass, and are probably trying to keep her popularity in check. It's sad that I can say that about so many good characters.

----------


## Rogue Star

> While it's good that Orphan is not a permanent name, DC's refusal to let her wear the Bat-Symbol indicates that they are still strongly biased against Cass, and are probably trying to keep her popularity in check. It's sad that I can say that about so many good characters.


The name Orphan even feels too meta to me. (in regards to how DC feels about her)

----------


## Assam

> The name Orphan even feels too meta to me.


Rogue Star, I know you're a major Cass fan as well. You stoked for the return of Cassandra Cain-Wayne?

----------


## Frontier

> Rogue Star, I know you're a major Cass fan as well. You stoked for the return of Cassandra Cain-Wayne?


I feel like I should be more hyped for this then I am.

----------


## RedBird

Wow thanks for the good news Assam  :Smile: 

Super great to know that Orphan wont be sticking around for long, I wonder what name will replace it?

Also I am really really surprised that their is any consideration for adoption at this point.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Rogue Star, I know you're a major Cass fan as well. You stoked for the return of Cassandra Cain-Wayne?


Yeah, I was away from american comics (obsessed with manga and anime then) when she was separated. I'm glad I was because that would have been awful to have to get through.  But yeah, she's back where she belongs... *at least in name*.

----------


## Assam

> I feel like I should be more hyped for this then I am.


I would say it's a rightful lack of faith in anything DC does...but _you're_ the kind of guy who'd remain optimistic during a zombie apocalypse, so I'm not sure what the case is.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Super great to know that Orphan wont be sticking around for long, I wonder what name will replace it?


Well, with the knowledge that DC wants her disconnected from the Bat (UGH), who knows. I kinda like the idea I head of "Blackwing". (Though whether Konami could sew over that, I don't know) 




> Also I am really really surprised that their is any consideration for adoption at this point.


For all his faults, Tynion is an honest to god fanboy for the 90's batkids, and he wants to do right by them as much as he can.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah, I was away from american comics (obsessed with manga and anime then) when she was separated. I'm glad I was because that would have been awful to have to get through.  But yeah, she's back where she belongs... *at least in name*.


Sorta the same for me during the Nu52. (Big anime and manga fan myself) Only book I read consistently was Aquaman (until Secret Six started back up), and for the Bat Books, with no Cass, Babs no longer Oracle, no Steph, and Tim being a complete putz (The level of importance is in that order BTW), I had ZERO reasons to be interested in the Nu52 Batbooks at all.

----------


## Frontier

> I would say it's a rightful lack of faith in anything DC does...but _you're_ the kind of guy who'd remain optimistic during a zombie apocalypse, so I'm not sure what the case is.


Well, I try my best  :Smile: .

I dunno, I just feel like we'd need more build-up or a continuity re-establishment to make the adoption seem more meaningful given Bruce and Cass just haven't interacted enough to where I could see it working like it did in Post-Crisis.

And then I wonder whether Bruce having a daughter would even be reflected in the other books, since the Bat-books can feel so secular sometimes. Particularly when Bruce now has a prominent son in Damian and may soon throw in Catwoman to the family dynamic. I don't want it to be an adoption and then it's just a shallow one.  

I just don't know how to feel about it now.

----------


## RedBird

> For all his faults, Tynion is an honest to god fanboy for the 90's batkids, and he wants to do right by them as much as he can.


Yeah but honestly I assumed this recent adoption erasure nonsense was an editorial decision to you know, 'simplify' the batfam. If it was even Tynion wouldnt be able to change that, glad to know its not off the table.

----------


## Assam

> Yeah but honestly I assumed this recent adoption erasure nonsense was an editorial decision to you know, 'simplify' the batfam. If it was even Tynion wouldnt be able to change that, glad to know its not off the table.


Well, Cass's adoption wasn't the only thing erased. _She_ was entirely. (or are you referring to something else? I saw something on Tumblr along the lines that DC was saying that Dick and Jason were never adopted?)

----------


## RedBird

> Well, Cass's adoption wasn't the only thing erased. _She_ was entirely. (or are you referring to something else? I saw something on Tumblr along the lines that DC was saying that Dick and Jason were never adopted?)


 Yeah I saw that too, I don't know whats up with THAT. I was referring to the recent narrative in play that creates a divide between Damian and his brothers. (possibly discounting Tim due to background status). Regardless, considering DC had pretty much destroyed the majority of its famed family dynamics with new52, I was dreading the possibility of editorial wiping away the batfams family and adoption statuses in its entirety for the sake of 'simplifying' the history and storylines. Hey, editorial has done dumber things before right? I mean, no bat logo for Cass due to confusion? what?

If Cass can finally be adopted, then, *hell yeah!* hopefully her transition from Orphan to whatever name she takes on will allow her to interact more with Bruce, I would really love to see the relationship rebuilt. Considering her adoption in pre52 just kinda happened and was never spoken of again, I hope we get more acknowledgement here of how she feels knowing she is being accepted as a family member and not just an ally/friend, especially considering her background of neglect and abuse.

I know some people scoff at the adoption part of these characters storylines, but I think in the grand scheme of things it can mean a lot when writers put the effort to make it so. EG: Acknowledging the complicated status of Dicks relationship with Bruce as an almost younger sibling (due to precrisis young age) but sort of son as well. Dick still seeking to be taken in as more than a ward because it signifies that their relationship grew beyond just Bruce being a guardian. Adding the emotional weight of Jasons death considering he was Bruces son and it meant Bruce had lost his family twice now after DITF. Plus the added conflict Jason has to deal with feeling 'betrayed' by his father, the only good family he has ever known. I would like to see the same significance for Cass in this case.

----------


## adrikito

One fanart. For the old times.. Good image. no? *Assam*

cass_vs_steph_by_hanukara-d37latm.jpg

----------


## Assam

> One fanart. For the old times.. Good image. no? *Assam*
> 
> cass_vs_steph_by_hanukara-d37latm.jpg


Yeah, I really dig that art. It was the wallpaper on my laptop for awhile.

----------


## Assam

Internal struggle I've been having this past week: Is it worth the SUPER high price tag for a Takara "Cass as Batman" sketch? I didn't get to the ren fair this year and I didn't spend too much at FlameCon so I do _have_  the money. Still rather daunting though.

----------


## Blight

> Internal struggle I've been having this past week: Is it worth the SUPER high price tag for a Takara "Cass as Batman" sketch? I didn't get to the ren fair this year and I didn't spend too much at FlameCon so I do _have_  the money. Still rather daunting though.


The answer is: YES. It is so worth it. I have one myself and it's freaking amazing.

----------


## Assam

> The answer is: YES. It is so worth it. I have one myself and it's freaking amazing.


If possible, may I see?

----------


## Rogue Star

I don't know if this has been posted before but I reaaaally like this.  o 3o

----------


## Assam

Really depressing thought I just had: If DC is SO worried about their precious little Babs (and yet simultaneously clearly lack any actual faith in her) that they won't even let Cass wear the bat, there's really no chance of her appearing as Batgirl to Babs' Oracle in YJ season 3. On the bright side, this little fact has killed any and all interest in YJ season 3 for me, so I don't have to spend money on DC's streaming service. 

Side Note: How sad is that its gotten to a point where I hate Babsgirl more than I love Oracle, who, pre-Cass, was my favorite BatFam member?

----------


## Frontier

> Really depressing thought I just had: If DC is SO worried about their precious little Babs (and yet simultaneously clearly lack any actual faith in her) that they won't even let Cass wear the bat, there's really no chance of her appearing as Batgirl to Babs' Oracle in YJ season 3. On the bright side, this little fact has killed any and all interest in YJ season 3 for me, so I don't have to spend money on DC's streaming service. 
> 
> Side Note: How sad is that its gotten to a point where I hate Babsgirl more than I love Oracle, who, pre-Cass, was my favorite BatFam member?


Well, I'd like to see how they'd use Cass in _Young Justice_ season 3 (if she's in it at all) before I make any decisions. They're not the types who would keep Babs as Batgirl indefinitely with the way the show works and the emphasis on Legacy, and I'm not sure DC gives them that many creative mandates. 

Just my two cents there. 

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way about Barbara now.

----------


## Assam

> Well, I'd like to see how they'd use Cass in _Young Justice_ season 3 (if she's in it at all) before I make any decisions. They're not the types who would keep Babs as Batgirl indefinitely with the way the show works and the emphasis on Legacy, and I'm not sure DC gives them that many creative mandates.


That's how I was thinking, but with the new info I got, it does seem like the rare thing that DC may step in on. (The other thing giving me hope was that Weissman is apparently reading Rebirth 'Tec and is a fan of the team) Hell, I wouldn't even rule out Babs still appearing as Oracle in season 3, but Cass? I don't think so.  :Frown: 




> I'm sorry to hear you feel that way about Barbara now.


Thanks. It hasn't gotten to the point where I can't enjoy old Oracle appearances yet (dear lord I hope that day never comes) but when I hear the name "Barabra Gordon", "Hate" is the first feeling I get.

----------


## Frontier

> That's how I was thinking, but with the new info I got, it does seem like the rare thing that DC may step in on. (The other thing giving me hope was that Weissman is apparently reading Rebirth 'Tec and is a fan of the team) Hell, I wouldn't even rule out Babs still appearing as Oracle in season 3, but Cass? I don't think so.


I just think what's true for the comics would be different for animation. 

If Weisman and co. have a story to tell with Cass, then I would expect her to appear. 




> Thanks. It hasn't gotten to the point where I can't enjoy old Oracle appearances yet (dear lord I hope that day never comes) but when I hear the name "Barabra Gordon", "Hate" is the first feeling I get.


Again, I'm sorry to hear you feel that way.

----------


## Blight

> If possible, may I see?


Here ya go. 

img093.jpg

----------


## Blight

> Really depressing thought I just had: If DC is SO worried about their precious little Babs (and yet simultaneously clearly lack any actual faith in her) that they won't even let Cass wear the bat, there's really no chance of her appearing as Batgirl to Babs' Oracle in YJ season 3. On the bright side, this little fact has killed any and all interest in YJ season 3 for me, so I don't have to spend money on DC's streaming service. 
> 
> Side Note: How sad is that its gotten to a point where I hate Babsgirl more than I love Oracle, who, pre-Cass, was my favorite BatFam member?



The thing is though, the creators always do think outside the box. So there is a possiblity. But, it sounds like to me that there are two factions within DC. The guard who take the values of the "New 52" and don't care about legacy. They care about the most "iconic" character. While you have others who care about legacy and wish to further explore it. But, the people on the other side still have some sway preventing it.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Here ya go. 
> 
> img093.jpg


Oooooooh, that's nice.

----------


## Rogue Star

> That's how I was thinking, but with the new info I got, it does seem like the rare thing that DC may step in on. (The other thing giving me hope was that Weissman is apparently reading Rebirth 'Tec and is a fan of the team) Hell, I wouldn't even rule out Babs still appearing as Oracle in season 3, but Cass? I don't think so. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. It hasn't gotten to the point where I can't enjoy old Oracle appearances yet (dear lord I hope that day never comes) but when I hear the name "Barabra Gordon", "Hate" is the first feeling I get.


I understand. At least with Dick they let him move on as Nightwing so other Robins could step up. But with Barbara she isn't allowed to move past Batgirl and keep a new identity.  They are testing my love for Babara.  But it's so bad that Cassie can't even go by anything Black Bat anymore.  I don't get it.

----------


## Assam

> Here ya go. 
> 
> img093.jpg


Very nice! Takara really is the only person whose been able to make Cass's new looks look good.

----------


## Assam

cass and duke batman.jpg

I think the most appropriate name for this piece would be "F**k the Robins". A second option would be "Batman: The Black and the Yellow." Or, for the one I WON'T be including when I copy paste this to the Duke thread, "Get your own color scheme, Duke."

----------


## adrikito

> Thanks. It hasn't gotten to the point where I can't enjoy old Oracle appearances yet (dear lord I hope that day never comes) but when I hear the name "Barabra Gordon", "Hate" is the first feeling I get.


You are not the only... *We need a different way to use batgirl*... because if you change the batgirl but not *THE REAL PROBLEM* nothing will change..

Can you imagine one Cass Batgirl in a place like Burnside? *I hate Burnside Babs because I think it's something humiliating for Barbara character*... Even changing the character the next will suffer the consequences of burnside creation..

ABOUT THE CURRENT CASS COSTUME... WITH ORPHAN NAME OUT... Maybe she change of costume(Black *Bat*? she need the* bat*symbol), or adds the batsymbol in her current costume.

----------


## Assam

> Can you imagine one Cass Batgirl in a place like Burnside?


Someone already made it so I don't have to. 

kill me.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Someone already made it so I don't have to. 
> 
> kill me.jpg


I saw the image...

Even if Burnside if more closer to Steph and I found funny the few chapters with Spoiler in Batgirl I hope never see her as Batgirl in this place or FEW PEOPLE will take her seriously.. I think that Cass reputation would fall even more here, you can´t make one character and after many years change her completely..

*I CAN TAKE BABS SERIOSLY SINCE THE BEGIN OF BURNSIDE*... Because she is living in a wonderland not in Gotham..

----------


## Assam

> I saw the image... I am talking of stupid things like one boyfriend for saga(with babs I know about one chinese boy, penguin son, batwing..) and things like that.. You see her but is not your character..


Barbara Gordon hasn't actually been seen since the Nu52 started. People like to say that it was totally her during Simone's run, but no, no it wasn't. For the past 6 years, there has only been FakeBabs.

----------


## adrikito

> Barbara Gordon hasn't actually been seen since the Nu52 started. People like to say that it was totally her during Simone's run, but no, no it wasn't. For the past 6 years, there has only been FakeBabs.


Change one woman with almost 30 years(FOR EXAMPLE) for one with 21 and with another role(ORACLE-BATGIRL), can change her.... But I don´t remember see her as STUPID before Burnside..

However, in the Batworld I am with the Post-Crisis Batfans side(If you say that barbara was better before, you are right), thanks to creations like Duke(hero of the day? SM is the day Bats is the night) or Harper(ruining StephxCass Best Friends  :Mad: ).. 

I prefer one more older admirable barbara gordon than this.. I found interesting all Steph evolution during her old life, now we are starting again, without chance to recover that.. 

THE AGE IS NOT IMPORTANT, IS THE CHARACTER..

----------


## rev516

> Attachment 53713
> 
> I think the most appropriate name for this piece would be "F**k the Robins". A second option would be "Batman: The Black and the Yellow." Or, for the one I WON'T be including when I copy paste this to the Duke thread, "Get your own color scheme, Duke."


Seeing Duke as Batman made my eyes hurt. 

Seeing Cass as Batman is a thumbs up.

----------


## adrikito

> Seeing Duke as Batman made my eyes hurt. 
> 
> Seeing Cass as Batman is a thumbs up.


Unfortunately, I think that we will see that in one alternative future, Like Duke as Robin or the name Lark...

Cass is a girl.. She should be Batwoman(the leader) in a team without Batman..

----------


## Assam

> Cass is a girl.. She should be Batwoman(the leader) in a team without Batman..


Prior to Kate's debut, I would have been fine with her taking the name Batwoman when Bruce retires and Gotham is eventually her's. HOWEVER, Kate has made the name her own. Its not just the name some silly few appearance character used in the old days which could be used to make something new out of. If Cass became 'Batwoman' she'd be following in Kate's footsteps rather than Bruce's. Hence why at this point, as she's said she wants to be on more than one occasion, she needs to be 'Batman.'

----------


## Frontier

> Prior to Kate's debut, I would have been fine with her taking the name Batwoman when Bruce retires and Gotham is eventually her's. HOWEVER, Kate has made the name her own. Its not just the name some silly few appearance character used in the old days which could be used to make something new out of. If Cass became 'Batwoman' she'd be following in Kate's footsteps rather than Bruce's. Hence why at this point, as she's said she wants to be on more than one occasion, she needs to be 'Batman.'


But if Batwoman, as an identity in and of itself, is inspired by Batman wouldn't Cass as Batwoman be following in the footsteps of both?

Just like how Batgirl was following the legacy of both Barbara and Bruce.

----------


## Blight

> Very nice! Takara really is the only person whose been able to make Cass's new looks look good.


And that's why I got him to do it. I was thinking usual Batgirl. But he's done that sketch to death. Besides, I have numerous versions of Cass as Black Bat (like Peter Nguyen at the start of this thread), or other artists. Not many would probably want Cass drawn in that get-up, but Takara make's it work so well. I couldn't help it. Now if I ever got Marcus To to draw me some Cass. Now there's someone who really probably knock it out of the park with Cass as Batman. Since he drew Cass as such in that issue of Red Robin.

----------


## Assam

> But if Batwoman, as an identity in and of itself, is inspired by Batman wouldn't Cass as Batwoman be following in the footsteps of both?
> 
> Just like how Batgirl was following the legacy of both Barbara and Bruce.


That's just it though. When she was Batgirl, she was taking Babs' mantle, while also having Bruce as a father figure. But in this instance, should she become Batwoman, that would now be Kate's mantle she was taking. Which, now, has been established as a position that is NOT the head of Gotham. Basically, Batwoman and Batman have become separate mantles, and only of them is the Legend. 




> And that's why I got him to do it. I was thinking usual Batgirl. But he's done that sketch to death. Besides, I have numerous versions of Cass as Black Bat (like Peter Nguyen at the start of this thread), or other artists. Not many would probably want Cass drawn in that get-up, but Takara make's it work so well. I couldn't help it. Now if I ever got Marcus To to draw me some Cass. Now there's someone who really probably knock it out of the park with Cass as Batman. Since he drew Cass as such in that issue of Red Robin.


Aww, a To piece would be great. Have to keep an eye out for when he opens up commissions. 

Also, Tim's Uthernet is by  far the best potential future the DCU has seen.  :Wink:

----------


## Caivu

> That's just it though. When she was Batgirl, she was taking Babs' mantle, while also having Bruce as a father figure. But in this instance, should she become Batwoman, that would now be Kate's mantle she was taking. Which, now, has been established as a position that is NOT the head of Gotham. Basically, Batwoman and Batman have become separate mantles, and only of them is the Legend.


Add to this the fact that, at least right now, there's not actually a "mantle" of Batwoman... which is kind of the point.

----------


## Aahz

> Add to this the fact that, at least right now, there's not actually a "mantle" of Batwoman... which is kind of the point.


Why? I mean Kate beeing the second Batwoman is afaik still canon. And iirc there have at least some imaginary or alternate future stories where Betty or Cass became Batwoman.

----------


## Assam

> Why? I mean Kate beeing the second Batwoman is afaik still canon. And iirc there have at least some imaginary or alternate future stories where Betty or Cass became Batwoman.


That is correct.

----------


## Assam

NAW.jpg

NAW. 

Although I have no idea who the other girl is. Katherine from Gotham Academy I know is her name, but I know nothing about her.

----------


## millernumber1

> NAW.jpg
> 
> NAW. 
> 
> Although I have no idea who the other girl is. Katherine from Gotham Academy I know is her name, but I know nothing about her.


Katherine Karlo was created for Gotham Academy - she's made out of part of Clayface, is sometimes called his daughter, once morphed into Clayface when his mind took over, but seems to be free of his influence now. I really like, her, but she doesn't have a ton of development.

----------


## RedBird

[X] Silver-Peel 
silver-peel Cass.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> Why? I mean Kate beeing the second Batwoman is afaik still canon. And iirc there have at least some imaginary or alternate future stories where Betty or Cass became Batwoman.


In-universe, that's not really clear. Morrison is really the only writer to make that distinction, of having Kate be Batwoman II in-story, and his work is in a nebulous area right now continuity-wise. But even accepting it's true, Kate didn't adopt her identity from Kathy, directly or otherwise. Plus, there's no real system in place for passing it on the way there is with the title of Batman.

(And I don't think it needs to be said, but alternate futures don't really hold a ton of water for the main storyline

----------


## godisawesome

> Katherine Karlo was created for Gotham Academy - she's made out of part of Clayface, is sometimes called his daughter, once morphed into Clayface when his mind took over, but seems to be free of his influence now. I really like, her, but she doesn't have a ton of development.


...So there's already a precedent for Clayface splitting apart into autonomous beings. I forgot about that. That *may* have implications for Clayface's upcoming TEC arc.

----------


## Caivu

> ...So there's already a precedent for Clayface splitting apart into autonomous beings. I forgot about that. That *may* have implications for Clayface's upcoming TEC arc.


You know what'd be great/horrible? Is if Katherine has been slowly causing Clayface's decline. It's been established that it's straining for him to be split up for too long. So now, he has to decide whether to reabsorb his daughter or risk further damage to himself.

----------


## Blight

> Aww, a To piece would be great. Have to keep an eye out for when he opens up commissions. 
> 
> Also, Tim's Uthernet is by  far the best potential future the DCU has seen.



Ditto. I so want a Cass "Bat" and Kon "Superman" sketch by him in a "World's Finest" pose. I just love the idea of them becoming the next gen of heroes and fighting crime.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Ditto. I so want a Cass "Bat" and Kon "Superman" sketch by him in a "World's Finest" pose. I just love the idea of them becoming the next gen of heroes and fighting crime.


Nuuuu, you got to haf da trinateee.

----------


## Assam

> Ditto. I so want a Cass "Bat" and Kon "Superman" sketch by him in a "World's Finest" pose.


*Drools over the thought* 

Thank you Red Robin #19 for at least giving us a glimpse at what that could look like. 




> I just love the idea of them becoming the next gen of heroes and fighting crime.


Didio: "HA BA WHA? Who are these two? The next Batman and Superman will obviously be their genetic sons! Plus, one of them is an icky girl! And she doesn't even wear the bat. Never even has. And whose this..."Kon" person? As in from Star Trek? Hey Johns, do we own Star Trek?" 

Johns: "A bit busy printing money out of my pen, Dan."  :Mad: 

DiDio: "You sound angry. Does this "Kan" loser mean something to you?" 

*Johns twitches*

----------


## Rogue Star

> *Drools over the thought* 
> 
> Thank you Red Robin #19 for at least giving us a glimpse at what that could look like. 
> 
> 
> 
> Didio: "HA BA WHA? Who are these two? The next Batman and Superman will obviously be their genetic sons! Plus, one of them is an icky girl! And she doesn't even wear the bat. Never even has. And whose this..."Kon" person? As in from Star Trek? Hey Johns, do we own Star Trek?" 
> 
> Johns: "A bit busy printing money out of my pen, Dan." 
> ...



*That's why I loved Superboy Prime so much!  He is ME*!

----------


## Assam

See, while that scene is fun, and  nice as it'd be to see Superboy Prime give his usual treatment to DiDio (Note: I don't ACTUALLY want DiDio maimed or killed in REAL life) I still hate the character. The main reasons being his massacre of the Teen Titans/ mutilation of Risk, how annoying he was most of the time, and the fact that he was re-invented to be an insulting "Take That" toward comic fans.

----------


## Assam

Decided I'm definitely NOT going to be watching Young Justice season 3. The Cass-factor is just too frustrating, and having to hear "But Steph is going to be in it!...oh, Cass might get in in season 4. BUT STEPH!" every time I talk to someone about this, and likely will continue to hear for the next few months, only makes me more pissed.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> See, while that scene is fun, and  nice as it'd be to see Superboy Prime give his usual treatment to DiDio (Note: I don't ACTUALLY want DiDio maimed or killed in REAL life) I still hate the character. The main reasons being his massacre of the Teen Titans/ mutilation of Risk, how annoying he was most of the time, and the fact that *he was re-invented to be an insulting "Take That" toward comic fans*.


What I found the most annoying about Superwhiner Prime is that while he was designed as a 'Take that!' against fans, his actions and words were regarding crap the writers themselves were guilty of.

Far worse than the pot calling the kettle black, because the kettle wasn't black. Prime was a strawman argument against the 90s (in which Cass was swept up) as the writers tried to outdo every bad thing about the 90s themselves.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Decided I'm definitely NOT going to be watching Young Justice season 3. The Cass-factor is just too frustrating, and having to hear "But Steph is going to be in it!...oh, Cass might get in in season 4. BUT STEPH!" every time I talk to someone about this, and likely will continue to hear for the next few months, only makes me more pissed.


Would you have watched it if Steph was NOT in it?

----------


## Assam

> Would you have watched it if Steph was NOT in it?


Yeah. On paper it sounds stupid to not watch something because a character you like IS going to be on it. But as well know, there's more to it than that, and I can't help how I feel.

----------


## Blight

I get the feeling Cass will be in Season 4. The plotline alone suggests a cameo and an appearance at the very least given Cassandra's origins.

----------


## Katana500

what is the plotline that makes you think she will?  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

> what is the plotline that makes you think she will?





> In the new season, the team faces its greatest challenge as it takes on meta-human trafficking and the terrifying threat it creates for a society caught in the crossfire of a genetic arms race spanning the globe and the galaxy.


If that doesn't sound like something akin to Cass's origin of being made as a weapon.

----------


## Red obin

I understand your pain if Damian was introduced but so far concerning the batman family the chronology is relatively accurate in young justice. Spoiler is seven years older than Cass in real life, so it makes sense and Cass will probobly be next.

----------


## Assam

> I understand your pain if Damian was introduced but so far concerning the batman family the chronology is relatively accurate in young justice. Spoiler is seven years older than Cass in real life, so it makes sense and Cass will probobly be next.


I was wondering when someone was gonna bring that up.  :Stick Out Tongue:  While their BatFam chronology HAS been pretty good (Even technically having Bette appear before Babs), I think it may just be a coincidence since, even ignoring the changed ages, they sure as hell haven't been so loyal with some other Families. Flash Family- While I was obviously happy to see Bart since he's one of my faves and he should have been on the show from the start, Johnny, Jesse and Max all became part of the Flash Family before him. Super Family- Kon is around, but there's been no sign of Kara. (Not that I'm complaining obviously) AquaFamily- Kaldur was Aquaman's first protege, Garth and Tula we never get to see active as part of the team, Lagoon Boy is also introduced after Kaldur, and there's been no sign of Lorena, Koryak, Dolphin or anyone else. You get the idea. 

Plus, it obviously stings from a real world perspective since DC as a whole sure as Hell hasn't stuck to the chronology in terms of overall adaptation order. Both Cass AND Steph were skipped over in favor of Damian, Kate, and Luke. And as was my initial reaction, Cass is now the only Batgirl or Robin, Hell, the only CORE BatFam member to not be adapted. 

Maybe she will be in season 4, but while that's a possibility, we have no confirmation that that's happening. IF there is a season 4, and IF Cass is in it, I will go back and watch season 3. (And yes, I am more than a little worried that Damian or Red Hood is going to be introduced on this show before Cass)

----------


## Assam

On a lighter note, this is not bad at all. 

not bad at all.jpg

----------


## Rogue Star

Nope. Not bad at all.

----------


## Blight

> I was wondering when someone was gonna bring that up.  While their BatFam chronology HAS been pretty good (Even technically having Bette appear before Babs), I think it may just be a coincidence since, even ignoring the changed ages, they sure as hell haven't been so loyal with some other Families. Flash Family- While I was obviously happy to see Bart since he's one of my faves and he should have been on the show from the start, Johnny, Jesse and Max all became part of the Flash Family before him. Super Family- Kon is around, but there's been no sign of Kara. (Not that I'm complaining obviously) AquaFamily- Kaldur was Aquaman's first protege, Garth and Tula we never get to see active as part of the team, Lagoon Boy is also introduced after Kaldur, and there's been no sign of Lorena, Koryak, Dolphin or anyone else. You get the idea. 
> 
> Plus, it obviously stings from a real world perspective since DC as a whole sure as Hell hasn't stuck to the chronology in terms of overall adaptation order. Both Cass AND Steph were skipped over in favor of Damian, Kate, and Luke. And as was my initial reaction, Cass is now the only Batgirl or Robin, Hell, the only CORE BatFam member to not be adapted. 
> 
> Maybe she will be in season 4, but while that's a possibility, we have no confirmation that that's happening. IF there is a season 4, and IF Cass is in it, I will go back and watch season 3. (And yes, I am more than a little worried that Damian or Red Hood is going to be introduced on this show before Cass)


I don't think Damian is going to be introduced on the show. There's no room for it. Not yet at least. Red Hood? That on the other hand has been laid out. We know Jason was Robin during the first time skip. We also know he died and was memorilized. So there is a chance he might show up to be even more aggresive or another pawn of the Light. Just that with all the metahumans antics. Along with the focus on the past two seasons on Sportsmaster, Jade, and Deathstroke. It's obvious the League and the Light are going to up looking for a better warrior. Who better then Cassandra for that role? Of course, things go south when Cassandra like, "Screw that."

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think Damian is going to be introduced on the show. There's no room for it. Not yet at least. Red Hood? That on the other hand has been laid out. We know Jason was Robin during the first time skip. We also know he died and was memorilized. So there is a chance he might show up to be even more aggresive or another pawn of the Light. Just that with all the metahumans antics. Along with the focus on the past two seasons on Sportsmaster, Jade, and Deathstroke. It's obvious the League and the Light are going to up looking for a better warrior. Who better then Cassandra for that role? Of course, things go south when Cassandra like, "Screw that."


Don't know, we had allready two retelling os UTRH in the last years (Arkham Knight and now apparently Injustice) not sure if they should do it again in YJ.
When it comes to Cass, she seems kind of redundant since they have allready Artemis and Jade, and at least I would probaly go with over Cass, since Deathstroke is allready part of the show, and he is just way cooler than David.

----------


## Assam

> Don't know, we had allready two retelling os UTRH in the last years (Arkham Knight and now apparently Injustice) not sure if they should do it again in YJ.
> When it comes to Cass, she seems kind of redundant since they have allready Artemis and Jade, and at least I would probaly go with over Cass, since Deathstroke is allready part of the show, and he is just way cooler than David.


Yes, because _backstories_ are what make characters redundant. *Especially* when the only similarity is having dads with the same profession. 

Spare me. 

Seriously, both in comics and cartoons, the redundancy argument will always ring hollow to me, and as nothing but an excuse people use to say why a character they don't want appearing shouldn't/won't. If there's nothing redundant about having a large BatFam (In comics or in animated), or having a ton or archers, or a bunch of blondes, what exactly is redundant about having multiple characters whose parent (s) are villains. Put Artemis and Cass in the same situation, be it a physical one or a social one, and if properly written, they will not react in remotely similar ways. 

Also, even ignoring how overexposed he is and much I think he SUCKS as a character, even DarkseidPwns, a HUGE  Slade fanboy/girl, admits that YJ Animated's Slade isn't very good.

----------


## Frontier

> Also, even ignoring how overexposed he is and much I think he SUCKS as a character, even DarkseidPwns, a HUGE  Slade fanboy/girl, admits that YJ Animated's Slade isn't very good.


Well he certainly wasn't after getting knocked out off-screen (plus the recasting)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Blight

> Don't know, we had allready two retelling os UTRH in the last years (Arkham Knight and now apparently Injustice) not sure if they should do it again in YJ.
> When it comes to Cass, she seems kind of redundant since they have allready Artemis and Jade, and at least I would probaly go with over Cass, since Deathstroke is allready part of the show, and he is just way cooler than David.


But as I said before the fun thing about YJ is they fill-up the vacuum left of a character leaving or dying. Jade and Sportsmaster's out of the League now with Season 2. They're hated by the Light and the heroes (partially with Jade to a degree with Roy clone). If David Cain shows up (and that's a if) it'll be a one-shot like Sensei with the other Assassins. Just window-dressing. Really the person who I expect to show up at first is Lady Shiva. Of all the League members she is the only one sides Merlyn who hasn't shown up yet (also Bronze Tiger). With the whole subplot of genetic maniuplation. I could easily see the David subplot tossed with a little splicing here and there. All you need is the genetic matches and the Light trying to make Cassandra into a weapon. Then she decides not or see's the heroes in action. 

Again theories on my part.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Don't know, we had allready two retelling os UTRH in the last years (Arkham Knight and now apparently Injustice) not sure if they should do it again in YJ.
> When it comes to Cass, she seems kind of redundant since they have allready Artemis and Jade, and at least I would probaly go with over Cass, since Deathstroke is allready part of the show, and he is just way cooler than David.


How many archers are in this show? I don't think vague ability redundancy is a concern.

If Cass were to be part of Young Justice, my concern would be lack of focus. Rocket had plenty of character potential, but was amazingly pointless in the series, IMO.

----------


## TheCape

I find this ¡n tumblr and i thought that it was funny

    DC: From now on we’re using code names. Bruce is “Batman”. 

    DC: Gordon is “Robo Batman” 

    DC: Damian is “Batman in a future ruled by demons”

    DC: Tim is “Batman in future ruled by robots” robot future 

    DC: Jason is “Batman for a day in an ooc crossover” 

    DC: Dick is “been there, did that” 

    DC: And Cassandra Cain is….

    Cass: ….

    DC: Eagle 2. 

    Cass: Goddammit

----------


## TheCape

A very good post about Cass and his relationships with the rest of the Bat Family

http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/93267...ra-cain-family

----------


## Rogue Star

> A very good post about Cass and his relationships with the rest of the Bat Family
> 
> http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/93267...ra-cain-family


That made me smile the whole time I was reading it.  Her relationship with Bruce jerks the most tears out of me.

----------


## RedBird

[x]

----------


## RedBird

> Cass: Goddammit


Haha I almost forgot about this, cheers for the reminder!

----------


## Blight

Some psuedo-drawn Cass is needed I see.

----------


## Rogue Star

...... I'm in love...

----------


## Blight

> ...... I'm in love...



psu's art is always gorgeous. More so when they draws Cass. Which is basically 75% of the time.

----------


## adrikito

Of Tumblr:

Screen Shot 585.jpg

If you put Steph(I was looking images of Steph), quickly Cass is with her, they are inseparable. 

http://community.comicbookresources....15#post3070215

Even Tynon said that:

*finally being able to build the relationship between Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown. That was such a powerful relationship in old Batman continuity, but now we get to see it re-emerge in a new way here.*

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## TheCape

Cool picture shadowsgirl

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Cool picture shadowsgirl


These are from the Batman: No Man's Land Gallery issue  :Smile:  Cass looks like a total badass here, but it's not a surprise, her costume always looked amazing.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Another from Marico Takara:

IMG_20170906_231823.jpg

----------


## Rogue Star

I LIKE THAT ONE!

----------


## Blight

Preview for next issue of Tec is out:

https://graphicpolicy.com/2017/09/07...?sf112330262=1

Prepare yourself for feels.

----------


## adrikito

> Preview for next issue of Tec is out:
> 
> https://graphicpolicy.com/2017/09/07...?sf112330262=1
> 
> Prepare yourself for feels.


I can understand the reason of put that link here... Awesome...

----------


## Assam

I'M BACK! And more Cass obsessed and generally bitter than ever!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

A lot of new thoughts have popped into my head over the last week, but first, some replies and fanart! 




> I find this ¡n tumblr and i thought that it was funny
> 
>     DC: From now on we’re using code names. Bruce is “Batman”. 
> 
>     DC: Gordon is “Robo Batman” 
> 
>     DC: Damian is “Batman in a future ruled by demons”
> 
>     DC: Tim is “Batman in future ruled by robots” robot future 
> ...


And now in Metal we have the boys all dressing up as Batman and punking the Justice League while Cass is still left with only that one panel from Red Robin. UGH




> That made me smile the whole time I was reading it.  Her relationship with Bruce jerks the most tears out of me.


Pretty much everything Rena writes is gold. I highly recommend checking out more of her work (Spoiler: She writes A LOT about Cass) And obviously I'm biased, but Bruce's relationship with Cass is the most touching one he's got. 




> If you put Steph(I was looking images of Steph), quickly Cass is with her, they are inseparable. 
> 
> Even Tynon said that:
> 
> *finally being able to build the relationship between Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown. That was such a powerful relationship in old Batman continuity, but now we get to see it re-emerge in a new way here.*


Yeah, still waiting on that Tynion...

AKA how it.jpg

AKA How Batman #1 SHOULD have opened. 

AKA They're in love.jpg

AKA They're in love. 

AKA no seriously.jpg

AKA Cass loves motorcycles...seriously, remember her last Batcave? That thing was like 90% motorcycle.

----------


## Aioros22

> And now in Metal we have the boys all dressing up as Batman and punking the Justice League while Cass is still left with only that one panel from Red Robin. UGH.


Uh, need to check that out, I had no idea.

----------


## Katana500

> I'M BACK! And more Cass obsessed and generally bitter than ever!


Hooray!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> I'M BACK! And more Cass obsessed and generally bitter than ever!


Welcome back!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

So I swear I'll get to some actual ideas I had to discuss soon, but first I want to share a little slice of crazy. 

See, this forum serves the purpose of helping me deal with my depression and anxiety. While I was banned, this obviously went away, so I had to find other ways to relax myself. One way I like to do this? LISTS! And one of the lists I made involved taking every character  I think of as being either BatFamily, Extended BatFamily, or Bat-Cousins, using certain criteria, and ranking all f**cking 57 of them. And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices. 

Glimpse into my insanity  :Stick Out Tongue: : https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/

----------


## Caivu

> And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices.


Good night, you really weren't kidding.  :Stick Out Tongue: 
What's up with 36 and 37, since in Steph's thread you implied you like Damian less? I thought he'd rank far lower.

----------


## TheCape

> I'M BACK! And more Cass obsessed and generally bitter than ever!


Your bitterness is totally apreciated, even if i disagreed with it  :Smile:

----------


## TheCape

> Pretty much everything Rena writes is gold. I highly recommend checking out more of her work (Spoiler: She writes A LOT about Cass) And obviously I'm biased, but Bruce's relationship with Cass is the most touching one he's got.


Looking her blog, i almost believed that she was you.

----------


## adrikito

> So I swear I'll get to some actual ideas I had to discuss soon, but first I want to share a little slice of crazy. 
> 
> See, this forum serves the purpose of helping me deal with my depression and anxiety. While I was banned, this obviously went away, so I had to find other ways to relax myself. One way I like to do this? LISTS! And one of the lists I made involved taking every character  I think of as being either BatFamily, Extended BatFamily, or Bat-Cousins, using certain criteria, and ranking all f**cking 57 of them. And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices. 
> 
> Glimpse into my insanity : https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/


WHAT? the characters of WARobin in better place than Grayson?  :Confused:  Even Goliath.. hahaha.. This time Jason is the WINNER.. 

We all know the first place... Thanks for put Steph in the TOP3.  :Wink: 

Good position for the best friend of Cass.. in the TOP 5.. WOW.. Bat-Man in the TOP 10..

----------


## Assam

> Good night, you really weren't kidding. 
> What's up with 36 and 37, since in Steph's thread you implied you like Damian less? I thought he'd rank far lower.


I can get into my reasons why if you'd like, but put simply, both characters have "OK" personalities for me and both characters have a lot of outside reasons for me to dislike them. Ultimately they're pretty even, since I prefer Damian's personality by a bit, but Kate has fewer outside reasons for me to dislike her. You could switch them around and the list would be just as accurate. 

As for why they aren't lower, it's because, well...I care. With the exception of Sasha Bordeaux who I loathe, everyone below Kate and Damian are characters I just don't care about in the slightest, positively or negatively.  While I have more reasons to dislike Kate and Damian than them, I also have more reasons to _like_ them. 




> Looking her blog, i almost believed that she was you.


I wish!  :Stick Out Tongue:  But no, she's just an exceptionally talented writer, and of the few people who may have equal claim to my signature. 




> WHAT? the characters of WARobin in better place than Grayson?  Even Goliath.. hahaha.. This time Jason is the WINNER..


What can I say? I find Goliath and the non-Duke WeAreRobins more appealing than Dick. As for Jay...if I'd made this list prior to Rebirth, he would have probably been right below Kate and Damian. Thanks to Rebirth though (And going back to read some great RobinJay comics), he's boosted himself up quite a bit. If anyone ever gives him a solid relationship with Cass, he'd probably crack the top 20. 





> WOW.. Bat-Man in the TOP 10..


I REALLY love the JLC. And keep in mind, while I really like him, Baixi is by far my least favorite member. (At this point, Kenan is my 4th favorite in the Super Family, Avery my 5th favorite speedster, and Deilan my 3rd favorite Wonder character)

----------


## Katana500

> So I swear I'll get to some actual ideas I had to discuss soon, but first I want to share a little slice of crazy. 
> 
> See, this forum serves the purpose of helping me deal with my depression and anxiety. While I was banned, this obviously went away, so I had to find other ways to relax myself. One way I like to do this? LISTS! And one of the lists I made involved taking every character  I think of as being either BatFamily, Extended BatFamily, or Bat-Cousins, using certain criteria, and ranking all f**cking 57 of them. And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices. 
> 
> Glimpse into my insanity : https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/


I'm liking the list! some interesting choices!

----------


## Aioros22

Ace the bat hound topping Jason. 

Iseewhatyoudiddar

----------


## Assam

> Ace the bat hound topping Jason. 
> 
> Iseewhatyoudiddar


I will neither confirm nor unconfirm that placing Ace DIRECTLY above Jason may have been a reference to certain previews and lists on Twitter.  :Wink:

----------


## Rogue Star

> So I swear I'll get to some actual ideas I had to discuss soon, but first I want to share a little slice of crazy. 
> 
> See, this forum serves the purpose of helping me deal with my depression and anxiety. While I was banned, this obviously went away, so I had to find other ways to relax myself. One way I like to do this? LISTS! And one of the lists I made involved taking every character  I think of as being either BatFamily, Extended BatFamily, or Bat-Cousins, using certain criteria, and ranking all f**cking 57 of them. And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices. 
> 
> Glimpse into my insanity : https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/


I love that Azrael made your top 6.

----------


## Assam

> I love that Azrael made your top 6.


I go back and forth on whether he or Renee make the top 5. They're pretty much equal for me.

----------


## Frontier

I don't think I could ever do a favorite characters rankings. 

I generally like everybody and my favorites are generally everybody else's favorites, so it's really hard to rank everybody past the usual #1's since I feel like I'd be doing a disservice to a character I like or really appreciate.

----------


## Assam

Basil's arc is coming in a few months (And based on what we've learned, I'm significantly more interested in that than Lonely Place of Living) and while most of us want him to stay a hero, especially after the preview for 964, its all too likely we'll be seeing him off soon. Many pages back now, I pitched my 'Claymore' idea. Does anyone else have ideas for what fallout could/ you'd like to see occur should we lose Basil?

----------


## Frontier

> Basil's arc is coming in a few months (And based on what we've learned, I'm significantly more interested in that than Lonely Place of Living) and while most of us want him to stay a hero, especially after the preview for 964, its all too likely we'll be seeing him off soon. Many pages back now, I pitched my 'Claymore' idea. Does anyone else have ideas for what fallout could/ you'd like to see occur should we lose Basil?


A more B:TAS-inspired tragic Clayface.

----------


## Aahz

> So I swear I'll get to some actual ideas I had to discuss soon, but first I want to share a little slice of crazy. 
> 
> See, this forum serves the purpose of helping me deal with my depression and anxiety. While I was banned, this obviously went away, so I had to find other ways to relax myself. One way I like to do this? LISTS! And one of the lists I made involved taking every character  I think of as being either BatFamily, Extended BatFamily, or Bat-Cousins, using certain criteria, and ranking all f**cking 57 of them. And doing so in a way that the average person would think was completely random based on some of these choices. 
> 
> Glimpse into my insanity : https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/


I think you missed a few:
-Abuse
-Huntess (Wayne)
-Strix
-Nobody
-Man-Bat (and his Family?)
-Titus
-Franklin
-Alfred the Cat
-Mogo the Batape
-Troy Walker
-Lonnie Marchin
-Roberta the Girl Wonder
-Lance Bruner
-Batzarro

And probably some I forgot.

----------


## Assam

> -Huntess (Wayne)


She's on the list in the 20's. 




> -Strix
> -Nobody
> -Man-Bat (and his Family?)
> -Titus
> -Franklin
> -Alfred the Cat
> -Mogo the Batape
> -Troy Walker
> -Lonnie Marchin
> ...


Like I said, I used certain criteria. For example, I didn't count any of the other pets besides Ace, Goliath and BatCow because, as far as I'm aware, the others have never actually been of assistance in crime-fighting.  

Definitely should have included Troy alongside the other Robins though. I honestly just forgot about him.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Debated over including Man-Bat and Abuse...maybe I should add them. Much as I like Lonnie and Strix (To obviously different extents), I personally wouldn't count either of them. And I _guess_ Nobody should count given some of the others I included but I've barely read anything with her. Hmm. 

The others though: Roberta, Mogo, Batzarro and  Lance? Wouldn't count them.

EDIT: On second thought, yeah, I SHOULD count Lonnie. He's a hero, he's worked with Batman's approval, and he assisted Red Robin quite a bit. I'll add him as well. And I guess since Calvin is on there, Mary should be added as well.

----------


## Assam

Updated List: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/  If I'm still forgetting characters, let me know.

Should Lucius and his daughters count?

----------


## adrikito

> Updated List: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/  If I'm still forgetting characters, let me know.


Now Anarky is here in the TOP 3.... I can´t understand that..  :Confused:  Is a BIG Surprise..

----------


## Assam

> Now Anarky is here in the TOP 5.... Is a BIG Surprise..


I LOVE Lonnie. There are few works of fiction which I can say have genuinely changed me as a person, and his 4-issue mini by Alan Grant is one of them.

----------


## Aahz

-Aunt Harriet
-Kitrina Falcone
-Pippi Giovanni(the second Legionary)
-Bullock
-Shotgun Smith

A lot of Beyond Character.
-Max
-Matt
-Dana
-Nissa (Batgirl Beyond)
-Catwoman Beyond

Some Nightwing/Grayson Charcters
-Tarantula
-Nite-Wing
-Amy Rohrbach
-Tiger
-the Skullgirls

----------


## Assam

> -Aunt Harriet
> -Kitrina Falcone
> -Pippi Giovanni(the second Legionary)
> -Bullock
> -Shotgun Smith
> 
> A lot of Beyond Character.
> -Max
> -Matt
> ...


Kitrina and Pippi I'll add. (I actually DID remember Kitrina but excluded her for some reason) None of the others though. No cops because, while I'm a big fan of guys like Jim, Bullock, and Shotgun Smith, I consider the cops a separate entity. Renee is only one the list because of her time as The Question and with Batman Inc. And I don't consider Beyond anymore canon than DKR. I made an exception for Terry because of how much he's appeared, but all the others are no different than Carrie Kelley. And none of the Nightwing characters are anymore BatFamily than Midnighter IMO.

----------


## dietrich

> Updated List: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...members/65319/  If I'm still forgetting characters, let me know.
> 
> Should Lucius and his daughters count?


I remember when Damian was in the top five of this list.  Amazing! Tart knickers I guess.

Tune in next time for amazing upsets once YJ premiers or Duke gets adopted.

----------


## Assam

> I remember when Damian was in the top five of this list.  Amazing! Tart knickers I guess.
> 
> Tune in next time for amazing upsets once YJ premiers or Duke gets adopted.


1) The brief time period I loved Damian was when I was on my anxiety meds/weaning off them. They made me say, think and  do a LOT of things I wouldn't have otherwise both on this forum and IRL. 2) Yes, my opinion is subject to change based on new occurrences. I think that's the case with everyone. 3) Why exactly do you need to feel the need to mock me, and do you honestly think I care?

----------


## Assam

previeww.jpg

The 'Tec team in B&BoP #14. 

Cass doesn't say or do anything, but...she's there. 

At the very least, I dig how the Orphan costume is drawn here. No one draws it as well as Takara. 

EDIT: Also, I think it was briefly brought up here once, but really, how cool would a Cass vs Riddler story be?

----------


## dietrich

> 1) The brief time period I loved Damian was when I was on my anxiety meds/weaning off them. They made me say, think and  do a LOT of things I wouldn't have otherwise both on this forum and IRL. 2) Yes, my opinion is subject to change based on new occurrences. I think that's the case with everyone. 3) Why exactly do you need to feel the need to mock me, and do you honestly think I care?


I know you don't care and no most people's idea of a good character doesn't change on new occurrences they change when the character changes and becomes something different. Eg Pre 52 Tim and new 52 Tim

----------


## Avantre

> previeww.jpg
> 
> The 'Tec team in B&BoP #14.


Maybe it would look better if they added some of those orange/yellow highlights on the rest of her costume to the mask as well? Something similar to the downward spikes but on her cheeks, or her forehead or even her neck? Something to make it look less like a glorified ski mask?

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Maybe it would look better if they added some of those orange/yellow highlights on the rest of her costume to the mask as well? Something similar to the downward spikes but on her cheeks, or her forehead or even her neck? Something to make it look less like a glorified ski mask?


I was thinking something similar but i would be fine if her costume still had the hood.

----------


## RedBird

> Maybe it would look better if they added some of those orange/yellow highlights on the rest of her costume to the mask as well? Something similar to the downward spikes but on her cheeks, or her forehead or even her neck? Something to make it look less like a glorified ski mask?


Considering the Orphan name is gonna be changed, perhaps Tynion is saving a 'better' costume or a costume similar to her old batgirl/blackbat one for later? I hope she eventually gets her Bat ears back at least, the mask looks way too bare as is.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

I hope she doesn't become another Bat-derivative again.

----------


## RedBird

> I hope she doesn't become another Bat-derivative again.


Considering Batgirl and Black Bat are both taken I'm doubtful. Its difficult to come up with a unique and good name for a character that has not had much character driven exploration to herself (as of new52/rebirth). Perhaps she could be named after some kind of weapon? That could sound 'cool', but even that could seem like such a cold name choice (like Orphan) which put too much focus on the negative way in which she views herself if a writer is not careful by how he introduces the concept.

EDIT: Wait, I know I said I was doubtful about the bat names but I just realised you were being general about it, and yeah there are still plenty of unused adjectives like DarkBat, NightBat, BatNoir etc if Tynion wanted something batNEW. :/
I don't hate the concept of a bat name as much as I will loathe a poor attempt at it.

----------


## Blight

> Considering Batgirl and Black Bat are both taken I'm doubtful. Its difficult to come up with a unique and good name for a character that has not had much character driven exploration to herself (as of new52/rebirth). Perhaps she could be named after some kind of weapon? That could sound 'cool', but even that could seem like such a cold name choice (like Orphan) which put too much focus on the negative way in which she views herself if a writer is not careful by how he introduces the concept.
> 
> EDIT: Wait, I know I said I was doubtful about the bat names but I just realised you were being general about it, and yeah there are still plenty of unused adjectives like DarkBat, NightBat, BatNoir etc if Tynion wanted something batNEW. :/
> I don't hate the concept of a bat name as much as I will loathe a poor attempt at it.


Then again, look at the way the writers of BoP are handling the situation. They're making Barbara dip back into being Oracle again while also being Batgirl. What if they or another writer borrows another idea- League of Batgirls?

----------


## Assam

> What if they or another writer borrows another idea- League of Batgirls?


I think the simple fact that editorial wouldn't let Cass wear her classic symbol on the Orphan suit (A symbol mind you that they basically ripped off for Jim; still not sure if that annoys me more or less than Bruce stealing Cass's most iconic line) means that's not a possibility.

----------


## Assam

and a 1.jpg

and a 2.jpg

Cass isn't drawn too well here (The blue eyes strike again!) but this friendship remains the best part of 'Tec.

----------


## Assam

Most of my other thoughts on the new 'Tec issue I brought up on its own thread, but one thing I neglected...was Harper. I know Cass was busy in her own plotline and it made more sense for Harper to be in the city...but really? We got a Harper/Steph reunion before Cass/Steph? Tynion loves the two and has even brought up wanting to develop their relationship again, and yet all we've gotten is a nod here and a hug there. Yes, the friendship between Cass and Basil has been the best part of the book, but it's not my fault that out of the 8 non-Cass heroes in this book, *7* of them are close with her. (No, she hasn't exchanged two words with current Tim or JPV, but like Hell am I ignoring the BatFam BROTP and Cass's first friend.) It's just the natural order of things. Get good, Luke!  :Stick Out Tongue: 

 Back on topic, I really do want to like Harper. I do. I love her design, she's an electrical engineer, and I dig her personality. Considering how much contempt I still had toward the BatBooks and specifically the male Robins at the time, I didn't even mind her hijacking BR:E. It's _this_ stuff that keeps getting under my skin.

----------


## Rogue Star

Ironically, Assam, I got banned the very day you came back from your ban. lol

Anyway, I like the friendship between Cass and Bas a lot too. 

I have some questions about the Rebirth continuity.  What happened to Cassandra's time as Batgirl?  Did that get wiped out?  I read Batmand & Robin Eternal and I hated nearly every minute of it.  It felt like a huge step back for Cass.  Did Rebirth right the wrong that was done to Cassie by restoring elements of the pre-New52 continuity?

----------


## Assam

> I have some questions about the Rebirth continuity.  What happened to Cassandra's time as Batgirl?  Did that get wiped out?  I read Batmand & Robin Eternal and I hated nearly every minute of it.  It felt like a huge step back for Cass.  Did Rebirth right the wrong that was done to Cassie by restoring elements of the pre-New52 continuity?


Sadly, no. BR:E is still the beginning of Cass's journey and with editorial's idiotic "BABS IS THE ONE TRUE BATGIRL" mentality still in place, that likely won't be changing anytime soon. HOWEVER, we can at least take a little  (Emphasis on "little") solace that what we've been seeing isn't Tynion's attempt at writing a fully developed Cass. While I don't think he's completely succeeded in this regard, his mentality has been that he's essentially writing NML era Cass, and he'll be building her up from there. Mind you, Nu Fully developed Cass will still only be a shadow of her former self because, while Tynion has improved and continues to improve, he'll never be Puckett level (few writers are) but that's a matter of wait and see.

----------


## Aahz

> I have some questions about the Rebirth continuity.  What happened to Cassandra's time as Batgirl?  Did that get wiped out?  I read Batmand & Robin Eternal and I hated nearly every minute of it.  It felt like a huge step back for Cass.  Did Rebirth right the wrong that was done to Cassie by restoring elements of the pre-New52 continuity?


No it is still canon, and I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon. 
It is one thing to (partly?) change a one issue origin story that was published a few years ago (like they did with Jason, and are apparently now with Tim) and a completely different, to erase a quite resent 26 issue event book. 
I mean B&RE ended almost directly before rebirth and was scripted by the Snyder and Tynion, it would make no sense that they retcon their own story just month after it concluded.

And most of the changes they made sofar with Batman characters, are all pretty minor, opposed to retcon Cass time as Batgirl back in.

----------


## Assam

> And most of the changes they made sofar with Batman characters, are all pretty minor, opposed to retcon Cass time as Batgirl back in.


I didn't want to flat out say it on the Tim thread, but if he gets his time as 'Robin' back, I'mma be pissed. It's something I WANT to happen, but without Cass's time as Batgirl, it's a slap in the face.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Sadly, no. BR:E is still the beginning of Cass's journey and with editorial's idiotic "BABS IS THE ONE TRUE BATGIRL" mentality still in place, that likely won't be changing anytime soon. HOWEVER, we can at least take a little  (Emphasis on "little") solace that what we've been seeing isn't Tynion's attempt at writing a fully developed Cass. While I don't think he's completely succeeded in this regard, his mentality has been that he's essentially writing NML era Cass, and he'll be building her up from there. Mind you, Nu Fully developed Cass will still only be a shadow of her former self because, while Tynion has improved and continues to improve, he'll never be Puckett level (few writers are) but that's a matter of wait and see.


I can tell he doesn't really get her.  I can't stand what they turned David Cain into.  I used to like him. Now he's just a generic evil guy. It's a good thing I was banned because it gave me some time to cool down.  I never read the New52 Batfamily stuff so I was reading Rebirth under the impression that Cass was still Batgirl in the past.  I could tell something was different about her but didn't know her past had been rewritten.  This hurts.  I love Cass but....  this isn't the same character I fell madly in love with back in February 2001.  Sigh.  I'll get through this. I will get through this.

----------


## Rogue Star

> No it is still canon, and I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon. 
> It is one thing to (partly?) change a one issue origin story that was published a few years ago (like they did with Jason, and are apparently now with Tim) and a completely different, to erase a quite resent 26 issue event book. 
> I mean B&RE ended almost directly before rebirth and was scripted by the Snyder and Tynion, it would make no sense that they retcon their own story just month after it concluded.
> 
> And most of the changes they made sofar with Batman characters, are all pretty minor, opposed to retcon Cass time as Batgirl back in.


I think you misunderstood me.  I was asking if Cassandra Cain's canon (written by Kelly Puckett) prior to her New 52 canon (written by Snyder and Tynion) was carried over.  I believe Assam confirmed my fear.  All that was written by Puckett prior to Snyder and Tynion has been overwritten. That bites big wind. New 52 and Rebirth Cassandra is a shell of her former self.

----------


## Aahz

> I think you misunderstood me.  I was asking if Cassandra Cain's canon (written by Kelly Puckett) prior to her New 52 canon (written by Snyder and Tynion) was carried over.  I believe Assam confirmed my fear.  All that was written by Puckett prior to Snyder and Tynion has been overwritten. That bites big wind. New 52 and Rebirth Cassandra is a shell of her former self.


But bringing Puckett's stuff back wouldn't work without erasing B&RE imo, since you cant have Cass years as Batgirl be canon when she is basically just newly introduced.

The other Retcons are they did sofar added mainly stuff that happend before the start of the new 52.

----------


## Aahz

> I didn't want to flat out say it on the Tim thread, but if he gets his time as 'Robin' back, I'mma be pissed. It's something I WANT to happen, but without Cass's time as Batgirl, it's a slap in the face.


To behonest giving Tim his time as Robin back (or at least the parts that want change other charcters like, Cass Steph and the YJ4) would imo still be pretty minor change, if went by Robin or Red Robin when he was Bruce side kick and what he exactly did in that time and if he saw how dick parents died or not, isn't really changing much, nothing of this would cause any big contradictions with his new 52 appearances so far.
Even if they bring Young Justice back into canon, it could be done in a similar way than it was done with Dicks Titans, which also didn't change much about him imo.

----------


## Rogue Star

> But bringing Puckett's stuff back wouldn't work without erasing B&RE imo, since you cant have Cass years as Batgirl be canon when she is basically just newly introduced.
> 
> The other Retcons are they did sofar added mainly stuff that happend before the start of the new 52.


Exactly.  I would be fine with that.  Like I stated earlier, I hated what B&R:E did to Cassie's canon. Believe me, if they went back to Puckett's canon, I'd be crying buckets but they would be tears of joy.

----------


## godisawesome

> I didn't want to flat out say it on the Tim thread, but if he gets his time as 'Robin' back, I'mma be pissed. It's something I WANT to happen, but without Cass's time as Batgirl, it's a slap in the face.


It's still somewhat absurd just how much better off DC would have been achieving their Babsgirl paradigm idea as the new status quo of they just followed up on the premise from "The Cure:" if they could have just done to Babs what they did to Dick, and have her wear an exoskeleton, or get some spinal repair done, while keeping her last as Oracle, they could be looking at not just a massive successful spin off trend of ex-Robin books, but a true "Batgirl Inc." status quo. They were _fanatical_ about keeping even the idea of other Batgirls out of the publishing world, and yet they still returned to the books. Just imagine a situation where Babs is running around _with her experience as Oracle untouched_, doing some field training of Spoiler and treating Black Bat as the unstoppable muscle.

It's also going to be awkward to see how the changes to Tim's past is going to play out; a _huge_ chunk of the book, and an important chapter in Red Robin, feature Stephanie Brown as arguably the most important supporting character. Bringing Tim's stuff back is either going to have to be a)vague enough that they never address anything directly unless they have an exact sequel to an issue, b)restricted to memory so there's no _physical_ change to Tim's history (a favorite theory of mine), or c) expanded in some capacity for the other members of his generation.

----------


## Blight

> No it is still canon, and I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon. 
> It is one thing to (partly?) change a one issue origin story that was published a few years ago (like they did with Jason, and are apparently now with Tim) and a completely different, to erase a quite resent 26 issue event book. 
> I mean B&RE ended almost directly before rebirth and was scripted by the Snyder and Tynion, it would make no sense that they retcon their own story just month after it concluded.
> 
> And most of the changes they made sofar with Batman characters, are all pretty minor, opposed to retcon Cass time as Batgirl back in.


This. Though, I'm curious with all the teasing the writers of BoP made that they're up to bring back the relationship Babs/Cass had. 

But honestly, I don't mind Cass not seeing Harper or Steph in the issue. Since her friendship with Basil really has become an important subplot throughout this run. Literally, she's one of the reasons Basil wants a cure. She's been the rock for him. In that area, the issue excelled at. 

The Steph plot in the story just felt so rushed and left me scratching my head a few times. This arc with Steph felt so condensed and we got a cliffnotes version two issue version instead of a five-issue arc.  

We can only theorize the reasons of what's going on. But that's all it is. We only know of a few facts. We know someone above (is it the Batman Editor?) I kind of doubt that. But clearly you can tell there are two sides at DC. One that want to keep "iconism" (Didio) and one side that embraces the message of Rebirth in legacy (Johns). I very soon one side is going to give way to the other. Then either we're going to get something or not. Depending on who come's out on top. So far I think it's all tipping more in Rebirth's favor which in the end works for us. If it tips the other way? I get the feeling we'll be basically back to what we've had in the past. Limbo for the character.

----------


## Assam

> I get the feeling we'll be basically back to what we've had in the past. Limbo for the character.


Thankfully, I don't think that that's a possibility at this point in time. Relegation to supporting roles even more minor than what she's got now? Yeah, it could happen. But limbo? At least on the scale she's been on before? I don't think so. Partially because the people at DC who hate Cass have probably learned that she just won't stay gone no matter how hard they try, and partially because Tynion, like his writing or not, is someone DC's trying to make a big name out of, and in Tynion, Cass (and Steph) finally have a long term protector.

----------


## Assam

batgirl ponies.jpg

I know most people here probably don't like MLP, but this is still really sweet.

----------


## Rogue Star

Not a big fan of that show myself but that's nice.

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> I can't stand what they turned David Cain into.


Agreed.  David Cain used to be this hilarious and disturbing trainwreck of a father/villain.  Now he's a generic evil dude.  With a breathing apparatus.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Agreed.  David Cain used to be this hilarious and disturbing trainwreck of a father/villain.  Now he's a generic evil dude.  With a breathing apparatus.


Plus he's cribbing off Scarecrow's tricks

----------


## Sharpandpointies

> Plus he's cribbing off Scarecrow's tricks


Worse and worse.

----------


## Assam

Yeah I agree with the above points. I've ranted about it before, but Pre-FP David Cain is one of my favorite DC villains. An abusive monster, but one who, in his one sick way, loved Cass, and was now nothing but a has-been, with nothing of meaning in his life. 

Post-FP David Cain, like everything else about current Cass's origin, is awful.

----------


## Assam

From Oracle week on Tumblr

oracle week.jpg

I'm just going to assume that Steph got Cass that shirt and told her what it said.

----------


## Assam

So I saw the idea pitched that since New Super-Man is continuing on, either as itself or as Justice League of China, that Cass could become the Bat-Girl of China, since there's already a Bat-Man and Robinbot. 

Now on the one hand, it would make her a "Batgirl" again. On the other hand it would disconnect her from the BatFamily. 

On the one hand she wouldn't get to spend time with the BatFamily in 'Tec, but on the other hand, my favorite character would be in my favorite book. 

On the one hand Cass would probably be better written and get more to do, but on the other hand it'd be just as racist as when she was shipped off to Hong Kong. 

Obviously there's no real chance of this happening, but if it did, I'm really not sure how I'd feel about it.

----------


## Jokerz79

> So I saw the idea pitched that since New Super-Man is continuing on, either as itself or as Justice League of China, that Cass could become the Bat-Girl of China, since there's already a Bat-Man and Robinbot. 
> 
> Now on the one hand, it would make her a "Batgirl" again. On the other hand it would disconnect her from the BatFamily. 
> 
> On the one hand she wouldn't get to spend time with the BatFamily in 'Tec, but on the other hand, my favorite character would be in my favorite book. 
> 
> On the one hand Cass would probably be better written and get more to do, but on the other hand it'd be just as racist as when she was shipped off to Hong Kong. 
> 
> Obviously there's no real chance of this happening, but if it did, I'm really not sure how I'd feel about it.


I could like this they could give her her own series about her going there to be the "Bat-Girl" of China and part of their Justice League. It could be revealed she's working for Bruce on a secret mission to watch the Justice League of China because he doesn't 100% trust them also given her proximity to the major areas of the League of Assassins they could take an interest in her.

----------


## Assam

> I could like this they could give her her own series about her going there to be the "Bat-Girl" of China and part of their Justice League. It could be revealed she's working for Bruce on a secret mission to watch the Justice League of China because he doesn't 100% trust them also given her proximity to the major areas of the League of Assassins they could take an interest in her.


She definitely wouldn't get her own series (DC won't even let her wear the bat right now so even if this did happen, they wouldn't have 2 "Batgirl" titles). While the League may no longer be part of her origin, Tynion has given her a bone to pick with the LoA. Also, this bit: 

" It could be revealed she's working for Bruce on a secret mission to watch the Justice League of China because he doesn't 100% trust them". 

Wouldn't even be the first time this was done. Bruce did the same thing with the Justice League Elite, sending in Cass as Kasumi to keep an eye on them. 

So far, we've seen Bruce classify the JLC as "interesting", but he's gonna be meeting Kenan and Baixi in November.

----------


## adrikito

> So I saw the idea pitched that since New Super-Man is continuing on, either as itself or as Justice League of China, that Cass could become the Bat-Girl of China, since there's already a Bat-Man and Robinbot. 
> 
> Now on the one hand, it would make her a "Batgirl" again. On the other hand it would disconnect her from the BatFamily. 
> 
> On the one hand she wouldn't get to spend time with the BatFamily in 'Tec, but on the other hand, my favorite character would be in my favorite book. 
> 
> On the one hand Cass would probably be better written and get more to do, but on the other hand it'd be just as racist as when she was shipped off to Hong Kong. 
> 
> Obviously there's no real chance of this happening, but if it did, I'm really not sure how I'd feel about it.


Hmmm..... Maybe... 

-If Bruce "die" soon(I hope NEVER see a bat-duke  :Mad:  PLEASE, there are worth characters) she leave the batfamily again(like before the Steph batgirl) and visit China... 
-For batman orders, he appeared in one chapter of New Super-man, maybe he wants spy this JL of China and Cass is perfect for this.. One asian character, not american..

But with one Bat-Man and the Robin robot... I think that they will be the only BAT in New Super-man or JL of China...

----------


## Assam

> Hmmm..... Maybe... If Bruce "die" soon(I hope NEVER see a bat-duke  PLEASE, there are worth characters) she leave the batfamily again(like before the Steph batgirl)


You know that Cass quitting because Bruce died was a HUGE continuity error and example of mis-characterization, right? It's why after people complained they had to blatantly retcon it so that Steph being made Batgirl was all part of Bruce's plan and Cass was following orders. _Everything_ involving Cass in relation to Steph-Batgirl was sadly wrong (As I've discussed before) and it's why I don't LOVE that book.

----------


## adrikito

> You know that Cass quitting because Bruce died was a HUGE continuity error and example of mis-characterization, right? It's why after people complained they had to blatantly retcon it so that Steph being made Batgirl was all part of Bruce's plan and Cass was following orders. _Everything_ involving Cass in relation to Steph-Batgirl was sadly wrong (As I've discussed before) and it's why I don't LOVE that book.


Sorry, I don´t know what happened... Only few things..

----------


## RedBird

This is a matter of preference but a hard pass from me on the 'Batgirl of China' idea. She has already been disconnected enough from the batfam and her ties to them have not been mended enough to where I'm confident she would still regain or develop a connection regardless whilst in a book alongside a set of heroes that reflect the ones at home. Basically its too early for her to leave the nest, unlike Robin (who has two comics of him doing things out of Gotham) she doesn't have the established connection to Bruce or Gotham or even an actual bat identity (a better vigilante persona than Orphan) to solidify her place _once again_ in the batfamily line, if she's moved to the new superman/jl of china, I'm afraid DC may just decide they like her there better. 

_
" It could be revealed she's working for Bruce on a secret mission to watch the Justice League of China because he doesn't 100% trust them"._ 

This is the only scenario in which the idea would be kinda fine with me, since it would just be something akin to Grayson, but I still don't want to hope for something based on the wishful thinking that the writers and editors intention would fall on this premise alone.

Besides she has much more relevance in TEC anyway despite the large cast, and I think Tynion may not want to give her up just yet.

----------


## Assam

> and I think Tynion may not want to give her up just yet.


I do share all your concerns, hence my mixed feelings towards the idea, but this part is definite. Tynion loves Cass, and he's definitely still got plenty of plans for her.

----------


## Assam

> Sorry, I don´t know what happened... Only few things..


Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.

----------


## adrikito

> Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.


Time ago DC made a bad decision with Cass.. Then they forget Cass and Steph.. and now the same with Steph for Tim´s death.. The people, quickly hate one character for something that they can´t understand, even if her problems with batman are easy to understand..

..... We can´t change the past... Now we should focus in the present and future... For now the only possible future that I see is one book with
Cass/Steph and Harper(unfortunately)..

She(harper) was bisexual, no? I hope that this can´t be bad for Cass... I will cry if they try to make a lesbian couple with Harper and Cass.. Before that I support one CassxSteph..

----------


## Assam

> Before that I support one CassxSteph..


Well I'm definitely with you there, but sadly, Tynion is a TimXSteph shipper.

----------


## Frontier

> Well I'm definitely with you there, but sadly, Tynion is a TimXSteph shipper.


Good for me though  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## Assam

> Good for me though .


Yes, you and Millernumber1 and plenty of others like the ship...so here's some new CassXSteph art that just came out.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

part 111.jpg

part 222.jpg

----------


## Assam

part 333.jpg

part 444.jpg

10char

----------


## Frontier

Steph looks like she's getting a wicked sunburn in some of these  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Steph looks like she's getting a wicked sunburn in some of these .


BlackSteph has gotten pretty popular on Tumblr.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.


Looking back, that reasoning may have been the for the best. After OYL, DC had this strange eugenics kick. Those with evil parents, or who started out evil, had to be evil. That was the reasoning for Dragon Lady Cass, and it even swept up people like Jericho. Steph avoided that by in large, though they did have an issue where Batman said Steph needed to be watched because her Dad was a criminal

----------


## Agent Z

> Looking back, that reasoning may have been the for the best. After OYL, DC had this strange eugenics kick. Those with evil parents, or who started out evil, had to be evil. That was the reasoning for Dragon Lady Cass, and it even swept up people like Jericho. Steph avoided that by in large, though they did have an issue where Batman said Steph needed to be watched because her Dad was a criminal


Judging by what's happened to Chris Kent and Kon they still are.

----------


## millernumber1

> Not getting into the many other faults Steph's book (And the Batman Reborn era as a whole) made in regards to Cass (Look awhile back on this thread for that), basically, in the first issue when Cass leaves, saying that she fought for Bruce and now he was gone? Yeeeeeeeah, it was made clear in her solo book that her loyalties lied with the Bat, not Bruce specifically. Her leaving her family behind and quitting over his death was complete and utter crap, only happening because Miller didn't do his research.


I know it would be nice to ignore everything Beechen did (except possibly the adoption), but I think a case can be made that Miller did to research, and his perspective on Cass's loyalties and position on being a Bat had evolved in the half decade between her statement that she was loyal to the Bat, and not Bruce, and her quitting Batgirl. Specifically, her torture by Deathstroke and Cain, and then Bruce's adoption, had strengthened the personal connection.

Not saying definitely that it's the case, but I think, if you assume (as I do) that Miller was given a ton of summaries to work with, that's a plausible narrative to come up with. Unlike fans, Miller did not have the option of ignoring the Evil Cass era.

Related question: I know this is probably not something you would ever choose to do, but if a writer was given the mandate by editorial that Cass was not going to be Batgirl, and Steph was going to be Batgirl, how would you be - not satisfied, but less furious - to see it handled? Fundamentally, I think you're not in favor of Steph being Batgirl, since there wasn't a really solid reason for Cass leaving the role, but if we accept that Cass was leaving the role, how would you not hate to see it handled?  I ask because there seems to be no real way for Miller or Steph to really win in the Batgirl role change issue for Cass fans, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong, and there was a way for the transition to happen that wouldn't have infuriated Cass fans.




> BlackSteph has gotten pretty popular on Tumblr.


I'm not a big fan of it, because it feels quite strongly that the art isn't of Steph.

----------


## Assam

> I know it would be nice to ignore everything Beechen did (except possibly the adoption), but I think a case can be made that Miller did to research, and his perspective on Cass's loyalties and position on being a Bat had evolved in the half decade between her statement that she was loyal to the Bat, and not Bruce, and her quitting Batgirl. Specifically, her torture by Deathstroke and Cain, and then Bruce's adoption, had strengthened the personal connection.
> 
> Not saying definitely that it's the case, but I think, if you assume (as I do) that Miller was given a ton of summaries to work with, that's a plausible narrative to come up with. Unlike fans, Miller did not have the option of ignoring the Evil Cass era.


I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop. 




> Related question: I know this is probably not something you would ever choose to do, but if a writer was given the mandate by editorial that Cass was not going to be Batgirl, and Steph was going to be Batgirl, how would you be - not satisfied, but less furious - to see it handled? Fundamentally, I think you're not in favor of Steph being Batgirl, since there wasn't a really solid reason for Cass leaving the role, but if we accept that Cass was leaving the role, how would you not hate to see it handled?  I ask because there seems to be no real way for Miller or Steph to really win in the Batgirl role change issue for Cass fans, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong, and there was a way for the transition to happen that wouldn't have infuriated Cass fans.


Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph. 

A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left  unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with: 

Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore. 

Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.

 Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.

 Issue 4 would be a fun romp with the newly named team and highlight some new toys and skills that Steph is rocking. However, we'd also see that something doesn't feel right to Cass, happy as she is for Steph. Meanwhile, Babs would have tracked down Tim, who would tell her that he's not coming home until he proves that Bruce is still alive. And because of the state he was in at the time (And the fact that he's...Tim) he wouldn't be the most polite about it.

 Issues 5 and 6 would have Team Batgirl team up with the new Batman and Robin. Babs, Cass, Steph, Dick and Damian have still never all been in the same room together, and dang it, I would make the most of those dynamics here. It would mostly just be a fun two parter taking full advantage of all the rich relationships that could be built there, but towards the end, there would be the scene that sets up the final issue of the opening arc: Cass would talk to Dick about what leaving Robin behind and becoming Nightwing meant to him and the two would have a nice bonding moment, maybe even bringing up how much they both lost in Bludhaven. (Remember, I may think Dick himself is a tool, but I love how he interacts with plenty of characters.) At the end, Babs would tell everyone about how she was recently in contact with Tim and how he's unable to let go of the idea that Bruce is still alive.

This would take us to #7, which would be Cass's departure.  Steph  is complaining to Babs how she should let her just go kick Tim's butt and bring him home, but there's an alert. Team Batgirl is about to spring into action, but Cass says she wants to go alone. They're confused but they go along with it, Cass arriving at the site...and finding Shiva. Rather than fight for the umpteenth time (There's no point. Shiva knows she won't kill her), they'd talk, the themes of which harkening back to the Death Wish arc. Shiva would even learn that despite him being gone now, Cass _was_ adopted by Batman. And Shiva would actually be happy for her, with even after everything Slade did to her, and despite what she was intended to be, she was still able to continue on and forge her own destiny. Those last few words specifically echoing what Dick had told her in the previous issue. Before Shiva goes (The reason she'd shown up at all WAS just to get Cass's attention having heard about the Slade fiasco) we'd get one more echo to the end of Cass's solo as Cass asks "Will you ever stop?" And to reflect how times are changing through the Batverse and everyone is growing, she'd give a simple "Perhaps."  

Steph is getting antsy, wondering where Cass is, and off-panel, we'd see Cass say, "Back." Through some casual banter, one of them would refer to Cass as 'Batgirl'. To which Cass would say, "No." Cue full splash page of Cass in her new costume, revealing her new name which would NOT be Black Bat. Steph and Babs are confused, and Cass explains (Through fewer words than I'm using here), that Batgirl was the first name she ever knew. And _being_ Batgirl is what she needed. A chance to do good to make up for what she did as a child and a chance to become part of a family. But things have changed. She knows she's a good person, while still as dedicated as ever, and she IS part of a family. Batgirl used to be who she was. Now she is Cassandra Cain-Wayne, and anything else is just codename. And the man who made all this possible for her? She can't believe he's gone either. The Bat is what she fights for, but she still loves her dad. And it turns out she's never actually believed he was gone, but unlike Tim, she had no idea where to even start looking. Cass tells Steph that the Batgirl name is now her's alone to honor, and gets Tim's current location from Babs, saying she wants to help Tim on his search, adding on that she's also worried about what being alone is doing to him, knowing full well how damaging isolation can be.  The other two argue against this, but her mind is made up. She bids both Steph and Babs a tearful farewell, including a peck on the cheek for Steph, promising that when she comes back, it'll be with both Tim and Bruce. The final page would be a collage of the most important moments in Cass's life, and the most important people in it. 

From there, she'd act as Tim's co-star in Red Robin, while Steph and Babs form what will be their status quo in Batgirl. 

And apart from just the idea of "Cass helps form Team Batgirl", I JUST thought of all this. No the ideas aren't entirely fleshed out, but with these 7 issues, we get:  A satisfying character arc for Cass which ties back thematically to her solo series, some more fun and emotional moments with Babs, Steph and Cass together reminiscent of the days from before everything went to crap, an actual reunion between Cass and Babs, Steph slowly settling into the role of Batgirl,   but the conflict of her being THE Batgirl still left open, "Team Batgirl" no longer being insulting to Cass fans,the first meeting for Damian with the girls and a chance for Dick and Cass to put their recent crap behind them, and a very clear point that no, Cass isn't being kicked out as Batgirl, this IS a promotion. 

Now as for how I'd handle Steph being made Batgirl today? Well that's a bit trickier, and this post already got WAY longer than I'd planned, so I'll write that out later. 

Hope anyone who read though all this liked it!

----------


## Frontier

> I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop. 
> 
> 
> 
> Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph. 
> 
> A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left  unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with: 
> 
> Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore. 
> ...


Now this is playing the long-game  :Wink: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I kinda think that idea is contradicted by Miller's statement from the time that he felt Cass had no more room to grow or develop.


I mean, I obviously disagree with that sentiment, but I do think that there was more than just Miller making that incorrect analysis of Cass's character path at the time. And Miller reading Cass's story wrong (or, which I think is more likely, reading the summaries given him by editorial wrong) doesn't mean he didn't do research. I'm not saying Miller's right (which is a very confusing thing for me to say, since Miller is also my name...  :Smile:  ), but I don't think he did the book with no research. More like wrong research.




> Since it's a fun thought experiment, and you seem to be asking both, I'll answer both A) If I'd been put in Miller's shoes, and B) If I had to do it NOW, and skip over Cass to have the mantle go from Babs to Steph. 
> 
> A) This is definitely the easier one. Assuming that Morrison had to be left  unbothered and that Cass was still going to be left out of Battle for the Cowl, despite how little sense her absence made, this is what I'd go with: 
> 
> Batgirl #1 has the great scene of Cass and Steph fighting together from the original, but Cass doesn't leave here. Steph goes home, while Cass goes to see Babs, and while it wouldn't make sense for their ACTUAL reunion to be only happening now, it'd be treated as a reunion for them for the reader. Both would remark how much Steph has grown. Babs would mention how she isn't the only one (referring to Cass) but getting back on topic they'd mention how she could still be even better if she only had more faith in herself. The three would do a quick mission together, and at the end, they decide to not just let this be an occasional thing anymore. 
> 
> Issue 2 would see Cass and Steph going about their lives, contemplating all that they've gained and lost and the hardships they'd been put through. Meanwhile, Babs would learn of Tim's departure and starts worrying about him.
> 
>  Issue 3 would begin the transition, as Cass and Babs realize what Steph needs and that there's room for another Batgirl. Steph gets her new suit and codename, and Team Batgirl is officially formed.
> ...


I do want to say that even though I prefer Steph to Cass as Batgirl, I don't think it would be right or fair for anyone to skip over Cass and just make the progression be Babs to Steph. That would be really weird and wrong. Though someone was mentioning on tumblr the other day that they think Cass doesn't have a very strong Bat-connection right now. I don't agree with them, but that's definitely something floating around in fandom right now.

I think the only real problem with your reworking is that Babs was incredibly angry (similar to Tim) at the beginning of Steph's run as Batgirl. Because of the (idiotic) failure and breakup of the Birds of Prey, and then the (stupid) Oracle: The Cure miniseries, she was in an incredibly dark place, and though I think she would have been kind to Cass, she wouldn't have been very interested in helping Steph out. So I think it would have taken a few more issues for Cass to get Babs on Steph's side.

However, I think it's a brilliant AU, and very enjoyable (and much more satisfying to a wider Batfamily fan as well).

----------


## Assam

> Now this is playing the long-game .


And that's the way it should be. When a long-time mantle holder is giving it up, it should be something built up to and with meaning. 




> I do want to say that even though I prefer Steph to Cass as Batgirl, I don't think it would be right or fair for anyone to skip over Cass and just make the progression be Babs to Steph. That would be really weird and wrong.


Sadly, there are plenty of (not too kind) Steph fans who disagree with you. I assure you, while I'll give it my best crack, the situation I come up with will be a matter for trying to make an awful situation less awful, as opposed to my previous proposal, which I would have LOVED. 




> Though someone was mentioning on tumblr the other day that they think Cass doesn't have a very strong Bat-connection right now. I don't agree with them, but that's definitely something floating around in fandom right now.


The fact that there are people who think of Damian and Kate as core Batfam but NOT Cass shows that DiDio and co succeeded in making her feel less important to a lot of people by wiping her from existence. And I hate to say it, but 'Tec may not be doing her favors in this regard. It was better when Tim and Steph were on the team, but as it stands, of the four non-leaders, she's the only  core member. Hopefully, the writers' and fans attitudes will change once the codename change and (eventual) adoption come about. 




> I think the only real problem with your reworking is that Babs was incredibly angry (similar to Tim) at the beginning of Steph's run as Batgirl. Because of the (idiotic) failure and breakup of the Birds of Prey, and then the (stupid) Oracle: The Cure miniseries, she was in an incredibly dark place, and though I think she would have been kind to Cass, she wouldn't have been very interested in helping Steph out. So I think it would have taken a few more issues for Cass to get Babs on Steph's side.


True. Maybe add on an additional two issues with Cass helping Steph win Babs over and generally helping her current state. By that point we may as well let Team Batgirl last a little longer (3 more issues) and make the transition last the first year of the book.  :Smile: 




> However, I think it's a brilliant AU, and very enjoyable (and much more satisfying to a wider Batfamily fan as well).


Glad you liked it.

----------


## Frontier

> The fact that there are people who think of Damian and Kate as core Batfam but NOT Cass shows that DiDio and co succeeded in making her feel less important to a lot of people by wiping her from existence. And I hate to say it, but 'Tec may not be doing her favors in this regard. It was better when Tim and Steph were on the team, but as it stands, of the four non-leaders, she's the only  core member. Hopefully, the writers' and fans attitudes will change once the codename change and (eventual) adoption come about.


I think who one views as core Batfamily members depends a lot on the continuity and how one regards their overall role in the family at the moment. 

Though it's hard to argue that Damian isn't a core member when he's Robin, even though he barely appears in Batfamily books anymore.

----------


## Assam

> Though it's hard to argue that Damian isn't a core member when he's Robin, even though he barely appears in Batfamily books anymore.


Oh, even if I don't much care for him, Damian has absolutely become a core member. I simply used him as an example because, like Kate, he came after Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

The real test is going to be Duke.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> The real test is going to be Duke.


Right now, he's like JPV during the late 90's. Core BatFam for the moment...but is it meant to last?

----------


## millernumber1

> Right now, he's like JPV during the late 90's. Core BatFam for the moment...but is it meant to last?


It really depends on how long Snyder retains influence, and if he passes the baton to someone who can make it stick after he leaves.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> Oh, even if I don't much care for him, Damian has absolutely become a core member. I simply used him as an example because, like Kate, he came after Cass.


At least at the moment she isn't really core, since she has no real interaction with the other core members imo (I hope that gets better when Tim comes back and Steph hopefully rejoins in some form).

I and still don't see Kate really as core at the moment.

----------


## Assam

Started writing my pitch for a "Babs to Steph Transition", but I couldn't finish it. Just thinking about it pissed me off too much.  :Stick Out Tongue:  I will say it would have involved Millernumber1's idea for Babs' procedure failing, reducing her mobility to the point she can't be Batgirl, immediately thinking of Cass to take her place, having already gotten to know her (Don't waste your one chance, Bensons) Then history would repeat itself and Cass would say, "Batgirl? Been there...done that," words once said to her by Bette. 

Yeah, I didn't think of how Steph would wind up in the role, but a f**king joke is the only thing I could think of, since it would be just such a horrible idea that I don't believe anyone could make work.

----------


## Assam

Thought I'd add this here too

cass and jason.jpg

I really hope _any_ artist brings back the "Living Emoji" aspect of the mask. It was always just so expressive.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Right now, he's like JPV during the late 90's. Core BatFam for the moment...but is it meant to last?


More like Tim Drake, no?

Tim and Duke, their senses of justice are intellectual, not emotional. That's not an especially strong foil with Batman, now that he's no longer Bat Dick.

IMO, Cass is a better contrast than most Bat characters, which IMO is why she's kept at arm's length

----------


## Assam

> More like Tim Drake, no?
> 
> Tim and Duke, their senses of justice are intellectual, not emotional. That's not an especially strong foil with Batman, now that he's no longer Bat Dick.


Obviously, current Duke has more similarities to Tim, especially given the status quo they're setting up for him in his mini. I was referring to the fact that JPV is a character who was part of the Bat inner circle for a few years, but ultimately didn't stick as a core member. 




> IMO, Cass is a better contrast than most Bat characters, which IMO is why she's kept at arm's length


I apologize but I'm not really sure what you mean by that last point. 

Part of why Bruce's dynamic with Cass is my favorite (Apart from just Cass herself) is because of what their relationship is based on. She's just as extremely dedicated to the mission as him and because she so fully understands what the Bat means, she's the one able to take him down a peg when he strays from it, without even saying a word. 

stare down.jpg

Also adorkable BatDad moments. Highly essential.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Obviously, current Duke has more similarities to Tim, especially given the status quo they're setting up for him in his mini. I was referring to the fact that JPV is a character who was part of the Bat inner circle for a few years, but ultimately didn't stick as a core member.


Would you define Tim as a core member now?




> I apologize but I'm not really sure what you mean by that last point. 
> 
> Part of why Bruce's dynamic with Cass is my favorite (Apart from just Cass herself) is because of what their relationship is based on. She's just as extremely dedicated to the mission as him and because she so fully understands what the Bat means, she's the one able to take him down a peg when he strays from it, without even saying a word. 
> 
> stare down.jpg
> 
> Also adorkable BatDad moments. Highly essential.


Heh, cute. 

What I meant by arm's length is that she's part of his Taskforce, but has little to no solo time with Bruce in that series and others.

----------


## Assam

> Would you define Tim as a core member now?


Yes, yes I would. He was core for 22 years prior to Flashpoint, and  I may not like how he's been written for many years, but, apart from the last year, where his limbo has had an actual in-story reason and is about to come to an end, he's still always been around, and always showing up for the crossovers. And Tynion HAS been trying his hardest with the limited time he's had to rebuild Tim's relationship with Bruce...mind you I wish we could see more of Tim's relationships get attention than JUST Bruce and Steph, but that's another issue entirely. 




> What I meant by arm's length is that she's part of his Taskforce, but has little to no solo time with Bruce in that series and others.


I know what you meant by arm's length and this is a problem which I hope gets rectified, but I'm not sure why you think what her specific dynamic with Bruce is the reason why. It seems the more obvious reason is because there just isn't time in 'Tec, with each arc focusing on a different character, and the ensemble cast (Not counting Batman) is one with well over 500 solo issues between them. It's why I continue to think that when Tim and Steph full re-enter the fold, a second book needs to be launched to house some of these guys.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> I know what you meant by arm's length and this is a problem which I hope gets rectified, but I'm not sure why you think what her specific dynamic with Bruce is the reason why. It seems the more obvious reason is because there just isn't time in 'Tec, with each arc focusing on a different character, and the ensemble cast (Not counting Batman) is one with well over 500 solo issues between them. It's why I continue to think that when Tim and Steph full re-enter the fold, a second book needs to be launched to house some of these guys.


Cass, IMO, is one of the best foils to Batman in the Bat family. Her origin is a dark reflection of his, and she does not need him for her origin. In that, she is unique of almost the entire Bat family. There's a reason why her series sold so well.

I think DC is still concerned about her overshadowing other characters, hence why her interactions with others are so limited, Bruce especially.

----------


## Assam

> Cass, IMO, is one of the best foils to Batman in the Bat family.


I (obviously) agree.  :Smile: 




> Her origin is a dark reflection of his, and she does not need him for her origin. In that, she is unique of almost the entire Bat family. There's a reason why her series sold so well.


Definitely. I've seen her origin described as "A modern re-telling of the birth of the Bat." And yet despite how brilliantly her origin and personality reflects Bruce's own and how well she works within the Batverse , it is also true that she's the one major Bat-character who could have worked perfectly fine without the Batverse. Mind you, I wouldn't give up Batgirl Vol 1 and the moments, developments, relationships and stories within for anything, but it would be interesting to know how it might have turned out if Puckett and Scott had just pitched Cass to DC as a new independent hero.  




> I think DC is still concerned about her overshadowing other characters, hence why her interactions with others are so limited, Bruce especially.


Look no further than her not being allowed to wear the Bat as proof of that being true. How much longer till the next regime change?

----------


## Assam

Unless Cass is in a sub-plot during Lonely Place of Living, her next appearance is going to be in RHatO (If she IS in 'Tec, and she appears in October's BoP on a reveal splash page or something at the the end, Cass could appear in THREE books on October 11th.), and now that it's approaching, I was wondering if anyone had any hopes for that other than Cass and Jay interaction, which we've already discussed a bunch.

----------


## CPSparkles

runmonsterun

----------


## Assam

Gotta love the Batgirlfriends. Although, given their costumes are leather, they are going to be _hurting_ in the morning.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Gotta love the Batgirlfriends. Although, given their costumes are leather, they are going to be _hurting_ in the morning.


Are they really leather, though? I would have thought some kind of spandex-wrapped armor.

Which, yeah, is probably a lot worse for sleeping.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Are they really leather, though? I would have thought some kind of spandex-wrapped armor.
> 
> Which, yeah, is probably a lot worse for sleeping.


But nice to look at, all the same  :Wink: .

Superheroes falling asleep in their costumes is pretty cute (especially when they're Cass and Steph)  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## millernumber1

> But nice to look at, all the same .
> 
> Superheroes falling asleep in their costumes is pretty cute (especially when they're Cass and Steph) .


Of course, it's comics! If your costume doesn't look nice, what's wrong with your artist?  :Smile: 

I think Steph and Cass are always cute, sleeping or not.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Superheroes falling asleep in their costumes is pretty cute .


ahhhh.jpg

I will always love this piece.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Gotta love the Batgirlfriends. Although, given their costumes are leather, they are going to be _hurting_ in the morning.


I really want to ask how you discovered that interesting fact about sleeping in leather but......

----------


## Assam

> I really want to ask how you discovered that interesting fact about sleeping in leather but......


I've slept in several unpleasant conditions: Outside in a blizzard, wearing bodypaint...I haven't fallen asleep in leather yet (Though I do have a leather version of my Cass cosplay so it's possible it could happen one day) but it's pretty basic knowledge that sleeping in a material like leather is very hot and uncomfortable.

----------


## Assam

Ballet Cass 

ballet cass.jpg

Maybe one day we'll actually get to see Cass in something other than her costume or formal wear in a comic again.

----------


## millernumber1

That would be pretty great.

----------


## Assam

> Attachment 55311
> 
> From Raul Fernandez's IG.


Apparently Damian is going to be in Fall of the Batmen. I'll feel jipped if we don't get interaction between him and Cass considering the potential for dynamics there.

----------


## millernumber1

> Apparently Damian is going to be in Fall of the Batmen. I'll feel jipped if we don't get interaction between him and Cass considering the potential for dynamics there.


We need more "You're alive" type interactions!

----------


## adrikito

> ahhhh.jpg
> 
> I will always love this piece.


EXCELLENT batFAMILY image..  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

You know, the more all this nonsense with Oz and EvilBatmen and Crisis of Multiple Tim's and Doomsday and after all that more badly written Lonnie and boring Victim Syndicate, and all this other stuff that I couldn't care less about keeps coming our way, the more frustrated I get waiting for Cass's next arc. If we're _lucky_, it'll happen in February, but probably not. it really does make it hard to enjoy a book when otherwise OK stuff is being given in place of what you're there for. Ugh. I'm just venting. I'd be more salty if I didn't have certain things to look forward to..but even then, _knowing_ some of what's coming just makes what we're currently getting harder to be exciting about.

----------


## Blight

It'll probably happen around April or May. Around the second-year anniversary. Also did anyone check out this week's Batman Beyond? The issue had a mention "it had to be an ex-Batgirl". Yes, the comment was made about Barbara, but more than one ex-Batgirl? That's something that hasn't ever been mentioned before in the Beyond universe till now. VERY curious.

----------


## millernumber1

> It'll probably happen around April or May. Around the second-year anniversary. Also did anyone check out this week's Batman Beyond? The issue had a mention "it had to be an ex-Batgirl". Yes, the comment was made about Barbara, but more than one ex-Batgirl? That's something that hasn't ever been mentioned before in the Beyond universe till now. VERY curious.


Interesting - I missed that reference.

----------


## Assam

> It'll probably happen around April or May. Around the second-year anniversary. Also did anyone check out this week's Batman Beyond? The issue had a mention "it had to be an ex-Batgirl". Yes, the comment was made about Barbara, but more than one ex-Batgirl? That's something that hasn't ever been mentioned before in the Beyond universe till now. VERY curious.


More than likely just a tease. Batgirl Beyond? OK with DC. Multiple Batgirls in Future's End? OK with DC. More Batgirls besides Babs in the main DCU? Yeah, we're gonna need to wait for a regime change before that happens.

----------


## millernumber1

> More than likely just a tease. Batgirl Beyond? OK with DC. Multiple Batgirls in Future's End? OK with DC. More Batgirls besides Babs in the main DCU? Yeah, we're gonna need to wait for a regime change before that happens.


We need a writer or editor who truly finds either Cass or Steph as equally valuable as Batgirl (and Babs as Oracle). Cass has a real sales argument, I think, but I get the sense that there just aren't as many writers who have a strong interest in writing her. Hopefully the Bensons give her some great moments in Birds of Prey.

----------


## Assam

> We need a writer or editor who truly finds either Cass or Steph as equally valuable as Batgirl (and Babs as Oracle). Cass has a real sales argument, I think, but I get the sense that there just aren't as many writers who have a strong interest in writing her.


There ARE plenty of writers (and artists) who love Cass...its just that a lot of them are no longer regulars for DC. 




> Hopefully the Bensons give her some great moments in Birds of Prey.


The sooner the issue gets, the more I lower my expectations. Just...this should be such a big moment, and with all these other characters around and FakeBabs being FakeBabs, I know it's gonna fall short.

----------


## millernumber1

> There ARE plenty of writers (and artists) who love Cass...its just that a lot of them are no longer regulars for DC. 
> 
> The sooner the issue gets, the more I lower my expectations. Just...this should be such a big moment, and with all these other characters around and FakeBabs being FakeBabs, I know it's gonna fall short.


Right, that's what I meant - people who are in a position to change things at DC.

I think I mostly share your opinion. Having just breezed through Steph's run as Batgirl for my response to the Steph post, I'm struck at how thin Babs's characterization has been since n52.

----------


## Frontier

> The sooner the issue gets, the more I lower my expectations. Just...this should be such a big moment, and with all these other characters around and FakeBabs being FakeBabs, I know it's gonna fall short.


Well, I like to think the Benson's Babs is a little less fakey then what you're probably thinking of, but that's just me.

But I do think there are going to be a lot of characters for them to juggle in this arc.  



> I think I mostly share your opinion. Having just breezed through Steph's run as Batgirl for my response to the Steph post, I'm struck at how thin Babs's characterization has been since n52.


She's not the only one who had this problem, unfortunately...

----------


## Assam

> She's not the only one who had this problem, unfortunately...


BatFamily characters who are currently just as good or better than  they were Pre-FP:Jason, Bruce (sometimes)...

and that's it.

----------


## Frontier

> BatFamily characters who are currently just as good or better than  they were Pre-FP:Jason, Bruce (sometimes)...
> 
> and that's it.


I don't think Bruce is that much different. 

His characterization is still largely dependent on who's writing him at the time. 

I would also say Damian has really grown from how he was Pre-FP, where he was already developing quite a bit. 

I'd also say Kate about evens out.

----------


## Assam

> I don't think Bruce is that much different. 
> 
> His characterization is still largely dependent on who's writing him at the time.


Pretty much. Hence why I put "sometimes". 




> I would also say Damian has really grown from how he was Pre-FP, where he was already developing quite a bit.


Unfortunately, as Priest and Percy have demonstrated, without Morrison, Damian's character and any development he gets will likely be incredibly inconsistent. 




> I'd also say Kate about evens out.


She's pretty close, yeah.

----------


## Frontier

> Unfortunately, as Priest and Percy have demonstrated, without Morrison, Damian's character and any development he gets will likely be incredibly inconsistent.


I wouldn't say "incredibly," but sometimes yeah. 

But before then we got a long period from Tomasi and Gleason of development, after development after development that I'd say 70% of has stuck.

----------


## reni344

Preist characterization makes me madder then Percy's because Percy in interviews has acknowledged he is taking the character back to try something else. But Priest just did it because he could not be bothered to read anything about Damian. I hate the excuse that writers give that they can't be bothered to read everything about a character no one said read every issue that they appear in but you should know what their character is like at the time you are writing if you can't be bothered don't get upset when fans critic you. And don't write in a shared Universe.

Edit: Just to be clear I don't condone the threats Preist got I mean he should not be upset over actual critics of his work.

----------


## Assam

> But before then we got a long period from Tomasi and Gleason of development, after development after development that I'd say 70% of has stuck.


Good for Tomasi. Now lets hope he never, ever, *ever* touches a BatBook again.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But yeah, I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out. (Even if a large percentage of Wally fans will NEVER stop hating Damian for what Priest had him do)

----------


## Frontier

> Good for Tomasi. Now lets hope he never, ever, *ever* touches a BatBook again. 
> 
> But yeah, I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out.


Well, _Super Sons_ is technically half of one. Can you live with that  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## Assam

> Well, _Super Sons_ is technically half of one. Can you live with that ?


He can do whatever he wants in that little sandbox of his. I just don't want him in a position where he can do Cass dirty *AGAIN*

----------


## reni344

I really Tomasi's Batman and Robin I like than Snyder's Batman if I'm honest. It was one of my favorite comics of the New 52 it was probably the reason they decided to give him Superman. Wait what did he do to Cass?

----------


## Assam

> I really Tomasi's Batman and Robin I like than Snyder's Batman if I'm honest. It was one of my favorite comics of the New 52 it was probably the reason they decided to give him Superman.


Haven't read it. Never will. Tomasi is the worst and I'm not entirely sure, but I think praising him on this thread should count as Cass bashing.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## reni344

Okay, but why is he the worst concerning Cass?

----------


## Assam

> Okay, but why is he the worst concerning Cass?


1. He was the editor who went ahead with the EvilCass storyline and was involved with the planning from the start.
2. He has deliberately excluded Cass from the BatFamily multiple times, including one particularly notorious scene where Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Tim and Damian are watching a movie and they say that it's "The Whole Family." 
3. Prior to Tomasi taking over the book, Cass was leading the Outsiders. Tomasi comes on, and Cass is gone without so much as a mention.

----------


## millernumber1

> Haven't read it. Never will. Tomasi is the worst and I'm not entirely sure, but I think praising him on this thread should count as Cass bashing.


I walked by his booth several times at Baltimore CC, and was SO tempted to try to give him a piece of my mind about Cass and Steph. (Same with Didio who I saw wandering the floors.) But I decided to try not to be THAT fan, so I just looked darkly in their directions.

----------


## Blight

> 1. He was the editor who went ahead with the EvilCass storyline and was involved with the planning from the start.
> 2. He has deliberately excluded Cass from the BatFamily multiple times, including one particularly notorious scene where Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Tim and Damian are watching a movie and they say that it's "The Whole Family." 
> 3. Prior to Tomasi taking over the book, Cass was leading the Outsiders. Tomasi comes on, and Cass is gone without so much as a mention.


I really don't want to be that person ever to ask, because I already know the answer techincally. A wise comic book writer once told me, "If a certain character isn't appearing in a comic they usually frequent. It's because I'm not very fond of that character and A.) It would be a disservice to them or B.) just ignore them. It basically fills both catagories with Tomasi, which is saying something when Dan Didio himself in the final issue of his Outsiders run acknowledges Cass as an Outsider.

----------


## Assam

Kaylabeemarie kills it again! :Smile: 

how the ages should be.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Kaylabeemarie kills it again!
> 
> how the ages should be.jpg


Oh, that's so sweet!  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

> Preist characterization makes me madder then Percy's because Percy in interviews has acknowledged he is taking the character back to try something else. But Priest just did it because he could not be bothered to read anything about Damian. I hate the excuse that writers give that they can't be bothered to read everything about a character no one said read every issue that they appear in but you should know what their character is like at the time you are writing if you can't be bothered don't get upset when fans critic you. And don't write in a shared Universe.
> 
> Edit: Just to be clear I don't condone the threats Preist got I mean he should not be upset over actual critics of his work.


Priest does know Damian very well and I quite enjoyed the crossover. Priest like a certain edge to his characters and he wrote Damian as a Slade Bruce hybrid but to say that he doesn't know him or has read him is very incorrect.

You should check out http://lamerciepark.com/wp/ where he talks to fans about the Damian/ Lazarus and answers questions.

You should be aware that his 1st draft and ideas of Damian for the story he was told by his editor that wasn't how they wanted Damian. Basically Priest's Damian is the kid from Deathstroke 4 and 5 but the editor wanted him harsher. 

Threats and criticism are too very different things. No one should ever be threatened,  harassed or abused because fictional characters are just that fictional and these people are just doing their job

----------


## Assam

From Martinez's instagram 

instagram.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> I'd also say Kate about evens out.


If this means "has remained mostly consistent", then yeah.

----------


## Frontier

> From Martinez's instagram 
> 
> instagram.jpg


I am never going to like her current costume.

----------


## Caivu

> I am never going to like her current costume.


I'm still not clear on why it's so disliked. Is it just that it's not clearly bat-themed?

----------


## Assam

> I'm still not clear on why it's so disliked. Is it just that it's not clearly bat-themed?


Partially because it's not Bat-themed, and partially because there isn't anything to make up for the absence of the Bat-theme, essentially leaving her looking like a generic ninja.

----------


## Frontier

The lack of bat-ears and a cape just make it one of Cass's least memorable looks in my opinion.

Her old costume was much sleeker and more distinctive.

----------


## Assam

> The lack of bat-ears and a cape just make it one of Cass's least memorable looks in my opinion.
> 
> Her old costume was much sleeker and more distinctive.


It's _definitely_  the least distinct, and the only costume, factoring in ONLY design and not art quality, I'd say is a contender for being worse is the Kasumi suit. 

Really, I'd prefer _this_ look to what she's currently got. 

vigilante 2.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm still not clear on why it's so disliked. Is it just that it's not clearly bat-themed?


Lack of Bat ears make it feel really villainy.

----------


## Frontier

> Lack of Bat ears make it feel really villainy.


Kinda makes her resemble the First Victim, and certain Scarecrow designs, now that I think about it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

Yeah, Cass original outfit was creepy, but cute creepy (it that make any sense), probably because the artist. The new one is just plain creepy :Frown:

----------


## RedBird

> Yeah, Cass original outfit was creepy, but cute creepy (it that make any sense), probably because the artist. The new one is just plain creepy


That was the great thing about it, she could appear super intimidating and, when need be, her mask and the large caverns of the masks eyes could turn into a cute emoji face to communicate her friendliness as well.

The current outfit has a more skull like nature to its form and eyes, which feels symbolically evil.

----------


## TheCape

Proves how important the art direction is. Without that creepy cute aspect of the characther, it migth not come to love the characther as much as i do.

----------


## Assam

> Kinda makes her resemble the First Victim, and certain Scarecrow designs, now that I think about it .


When the solicits for that arc were first coming out, I was thinking, "Wait, isn't this Steph's arc? Why is Cass forefront on the covers and why does she look kind of evil?" 




> That was the great thing about it, she could appear super intimidating and, when need be, her mask and the large caverns of the masks eyes could turn into a cute emoji face to communicate her friendliness as well.


People can say whatever they want about Scott's art (It admittedly wasn't for everyone), but the way he used the "emoji" mask was fantastic, and there were a few artists besides him who really nailed it as well.

----------


## Assam

Welp, just had an hour long anxiety attack based on Cass's mistreatment. Can't say I've had one of those in awhile. 

God I feel like crap and hate every other Bat-character right now. Well, them and myself.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> The current outfit has a more skull like nature to its form and eyes, which feels symbolically evil.


Yup. Just symbolically not appealing. (I feel the same way about Steph's original mask, though if it had the ponytail it was better. At least in current continuity, her skull mask is associated with her having a darker turn in her mission.)




> When the solicits for that arc were first coming out, I was thinking, "Wait, isn't this Steph's arc? Why is Cass forefront on the covers and why does she look kind of evil?"


Yup, was completely confused by that first cover.

----------


## AJpyro

It is time my brothers and sisters. My Cassandra BG vol 3 has arrived today. Tonight I end a great era.

----------


## Assam

> It is time my brothers and sisters. My Cassandra BG vol 3 has arrived today. Tonight I end a great era.


Hope you enjoy! Tons of great stories in that trade.  :Smile:  

Maybe one day we'll get the Horrocks and Gabrych runs collected.

----------


## Assam

kaylabee.jpg

KaylaBeeMarie's art continues to be super sweet.

----------


## Frontier

> Yup. Just symbolically not appealing. (I feel the same way about Steph's original mask, though if it had the ponytail it was better. At least in current continuity, her skull mask is associated with her having a darker turn in her mission.)


You don't know how happy I was to see her old mask come back though  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> You don't know how happy I was to see her old mask come back though .


Oh, I remember. I just am not one.

But as I wrote in my SUPER LONG ESSAY a few days ago, my "normative Steph" is Batgirl, which means that her mask and hair from her Batman Eternal redesign feels more like "my Steph" than her 90s-inspired new one.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Oh, I remember. I just am not one.
> 
> But as I wrote in my SUPER LONG ESSAY a few days ago, my "normative Steph" is Batgirl, which means that her mask and hair from her Batman Eternal redesign feels more like "my Steph" than her 90s-inspired new one.


I mean, I do love seeing Steph's face and hair out in the open, but I also really like the classic Spoiler look with the expressive mask  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean, I do love seeing Steph's face and hair out in the open, but I also really like the classic Spoiler look with the expressive mask .


It does have a certain Spider-Man quality to it. It just isn't my fave.  :Smile: 

It seems like I am forever doomed to love the versions of Steph and Cass as drawn by Marcus To and Dustin Nguyen more than their "classic" looks.  :Smile:

----------


## Fergus

> Attachment 55534
> 
> KaylaBeeMarie's art continues to be super sweet.


Love Jay's top and the fact that damian is eating leaves.
Cass's top is puuuuuuuurfet.

----------


## Assam

In which Dick and Steph are hipsters: 

hipsters.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> In which Dick and Steph are hipsters: 
> 
> hipsters.jpg


I saw that one, and thought it was cute. I thought liking Pumpkin Spice Lattes made you basic, not a hipster, though?

----------


## Frontier

> In which Dick and Steph are hipsters: 
> 
> hipsters.jpg


I will never understand what it means to be a hipster  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## CPSparkles

Bat family by afterlife

----------


## Assam

> I will never understand what it means to be a hipster .


Not really relevant to this point (sorry), but I realized something Frontier. For all that we've talked and all you've posted in this thread, I don't think I've gotten your general opinion on Cass or her original book. Be interested in learning those.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Bat family by afterlife


Ooh, Pre-Flashpoint Batfamily (plus Babs as Batgirl)! Nice.



> Not really relevant to this point (sorry), but I realized something Frontier. For all that we've talked and all you've posted in this thread, I don't think I've gotten your general opinion on Cass or her original book. Be interested in learning those.


I've read most of Cass's early appearances from _No Man's Land_ to her first trade, and tie ins to_ Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive_.  

(Keep in mind that this my back-reading is extremely sporadic because I usually just grab whatever books I can get ahold of at my local library)

I like Cass. She's really cool and unique as Batgirl, and I like what I've read of her solo so far. Her developing relationship with Barbara, Bruce, and coming into her own as a hero is fun to read  :Smile: .

I'm obviously not as passionate or knowledgeable about her as you are, and probably never will be, but I hope to continue to grow in my appreciation and love of the character in the future.

----------


## Caivu

Sneak peek at BBoP #15:

IMG_20171004_152802.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Sneak peek at BBoP #15:
> 
> IMG_20171004_152802.jpg


Pretty art  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Sneak peek at BBoP #15:
> 
> IMG_20171004_152802.jpg


My fear that Kate will get a ton of page time in this and Cass will get barely any remains strong.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

Yet another downside to Cass no having a solo or being adopted currently? We probably won't see any kind of reaction from her regarding the engagement/potential wedding.

----------


## Frontier

> Yet another downside to Cass no having a solo or being adopted currently? We probably won't see any kind of reaction from her regarding the engagement/potential wedding.


I imagine 'Tec will probably acknowledge it to some degree, but I doubt we'll have any meaningful reaction to it from Cass for a variety of reasons.

----------


## Korath

Relevant info, Cass will be at the Batfamily dinner party or something during Batman and the Signal #1

----------


## Assam

Yes! YES! INCLUSION! THANK YOU!  :Smile:  F**K, I'm pretty sure this is the first panel EVER to have all 5 of Bruce's kids! 

*Sigh*

Now I have to get Batman and the Signal...well played Snyder and Patrick, well played.

----------


## Frontier

> Relevant info, Cass will be at the Batfamily dinner party or something during Batman and the Signal #1


Wow, pretty much the entire Batfamily together for once? I think the only one missing is Steph. 

I also now have more incentive to pick this up...

----------


## Korath

Well, I don't expect it to last more than one page, honestly, I don't think they are truly part of even the first issue of the mini-series, but I'm still glad to see them !

----------


## millernumber1

> Wow, pretty much the entire Batfamily together for once? I think the only one missing is Steph. 
> 
> I also now have more incentive to pick this up...


RAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEEEE (Is Tim there?)

----------


## Frontier

> RAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEEEE (Is Tim there?)


You can see Tim between Luke and Damian  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> You can see Tim between Luke and Damian .


Even more raaaaaaaaaagggggggge!

----------


## Katana500

> Relevant info, Cass will be at the Batfamily dinner party or something during Batman and the Signal #1


That is awesome! The Whole Family together  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Even more raaaaaaaaaagggggggge!


See, if I was an a**hole, I'd bring up how JPV, Basil, Harper, Claire and Helena are absent as well, but thankfully I'm not, and while my excitement for Cass does win out, it is upsetting that Steph isn't here, and compared to some of the others I mentioned, her significance in the BatFam is obviously much greater. 

Guess this means she's still gonna be on the outs with the BatFam for a while to come.  :Frown:

----------


## Frontier

I completely failed to notice Azrael wasn't there  :EEK!: .

----------


## reni344

Who is that next to Batwoman? Is that Batwing?

----------


## Assam

> Who is that next to Batwoman? Is that Batwing?


Yes, yes it is.

----------


## Frontier

> Who is that next to Batwoman? Is that Batwing?


Looks like him. 

From left to right: 

Nightwing -> Batwoman -> Batwing -> Red Robin -> Robin -> Signal -> Red Hood -> Batgirl -> Orphan

----------


## reni344

Is Batwing in Tec right now? There are so many characters there I could easily have missed him. I did not think Batwing was in any of the rebirth books.

----------


## Caivu

> Is Batwing in Tec right now? There are so many characters there I could easily have missed him. I did not think Batwing was in any of the rebirth books.


Yes, for almost a year now.

----------


## reni344

Thanks, so many characters in Detective is cool but it also the reason I am not reading detective I can't keep track of who is there and who's not.

----------


## Assam

> Thanks, so many characters in Detective is cool but it also the reason *I am not reading detective I can't keep track of who is there and who's not*.


Its been the same team since January: Bruce, Cass, Kate, Basil, JPV and Luke.

----------


## Assam

You know in the dinner image, if Cass, Jason and Luke are planning on eating, they should probably take their masks off. 

Hell, it probably will just be a quick scene, but I really wish we _could_ get an extended scene of everyone just having dinner together. (Tynion acknowledged how Cass is a complete slob, so if something like this were to happen, I'd expect Snyder would recall that she has zero table manners, and can scarf down six burgers in the time it takes you to use the bathroom.  :Big Grin:  )

----------


## Blight

> You know in the dinner image, if Cass, Jason and Luke are planning on eating, they should probably take their masks off. 
> 
> Hell, it probably will just be a quick scene, but I really wish we _could_ get an extended scene of everyone just having dinner together. (Tynion acknowledged how Cass is a complete slob, so if something like this were to happen, I'd expect Snyder would recall that she has zero table manners, and can scarf down six burgers in the time it takes you to use the bathroom.  )


Probably why she still has her mask on. She hasn't gotten to it yet. Cause the moment she goes in for that meal it'll be the most ackward family dining moment ever.

----------


## Assam

> Probably why she still has her mask on. She hasn't gotten to it yet. Cause the moment she goes in for that meal it'll be the most ackward family dining moment ever.


Aw man, now I'm just thinking that since they're actually having a bloody BatFam dinner, they should just play into the tumblr side of things with Duke being weirded out by everyone else's quirks.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Though thinking about this, it does make me miss a relationship that never really gets brought up when talking about having Cass interact with certain characters: Alfred. Their relationship was amazing, and, as RenaRambles has pointed out, by 2009, he was the only character who still canonically gave a crap about Cass.

----------


## adrikito

I put this for try to make happy this fanbase:

https://www.newsarama.com/36804-nycc...spotlight.html

*Next question is about what's next for Cassandra Cain.*

"I want to rebuild all of those classic bonds with new twists and turns but I want Cassandra Cain to feel as important to me and you and she does to the universe." - Tynion


She is lucky of one mention... Duke is mentioned MANY times.. and I am not exaggerating  :Mad:  I imaginated information about the comics of the batfamily, but no..  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> I put this for try to make happy this fanbase:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/36804-nycc...spotlight.html
> 
> *Next question is about what's next for Cassandra Cain.*
> 
> "I want to rebuild all of those classic bonds with new twists and turns but I want Cassandra Cain to feel as important to me and you and she does to the universe." - Tynion


He's been saying this since the start, and we're still waiting. I do honestly believe that he has plans in this regard, but man is the wait getting annoying. _Especially_ when you consider how much time was wasted in League of Shadows. 

Also, also, the Robins and Babs are apparently going to become more involved in 'Tec. If this is connected to Cass, YAY. If it just means Tynion wants to write Dick, Jason, Damian, and Babs, gag me.

----------


## Frontier

> He's been saying this since the start, and we're still waiting. I do honestly believe that he has plans in this regard, but man is the wait getting annoying. _Especially_ when you consider how much time was wasted in League of Shadows.


Well, there's positives and negatives to playing the long game, especially depending on the writer, though sometimes you can also appreciate writers just cutting to the quick.  




> Also, also, the Robins and Babs are apparently going to become more involved in 'Tec. If this is connected to Cass, YAY. If it just means Tynion wants to write Dick, Jason, Damian, and Babs, gag me.


Don't see why it can't be both  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Well, there's positives and negatives to playing the long game, especially depending on the writer, though sometimes you can also appreciate writers just cutting to the quick.


There are definitely benefits to a long game, and if that just meant a year or two, I'd think it alright, much as it might be annoying in the short term,  but I don't think it's the right move to spend even more time than that just getting a character who was mostly out of print for a decade back to a place where her fans want her. 




> Don't see why it can't be both .


What I meant is that I'd be okay with them being around (skeptically regarding FakeBabs) if it meant developing relationships with their former/hopefully soon to be again sister/daughter, but I'd hate it if they were just around to take up time on their own in 'Tec at the expense of the Cass and the others, with them just working with Bruce and Kate.

----------


## Frontier

> tWhat I meant is that I'd be okay with them being around (skeptically regarding FakeBabs) if it meant developing relationships with their former/hopefully soon to be again sister/daughter, but I'd hate it if they were just around to take up time on their own in 'Tec at the expense of the Cass and the others, with them just working with Bruce and Kate.


Well, I've been wanting to see the "core" Batfamily interact with the 'Tec team for a while now, so if it was handled well, I'd be totally down for it  :Smile: .

----------


## Blight

> I put this for try to make happy this fanbase:
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/36804-nycc...spotlight.html
> 
> *Next question is about what's next for Cassandra Cain.*
> 
> "I want to rebuild all of those classic bonds with new twists and turns but I want Cassandra Cain to feel as important to me and you and she does to the universe." - Tynion
> 
> 
> She is lucky of one mention... Duke is mentioned MANY times.. and I am not exaggerating  I imaginated information about the comics of the batfamily, but no..


Technically, she's mentioned twice in the panel. Once by name and the second time (prior to the Tynion one) not but alluded too. Here's the question:  "A fan asks if Bennett would do a book with any of the women in TEC and why isn't there a new Gotham City Sirens book?" Bennet said she'd like to and that she has some pitches lying around. Murphy jokes that he'd do the covers.

----------


## Assam

> Technically, she's mentioned twice in the panel. Once by name and the second time (prior to the Tynion one) not but alluded too. Here's the question:  "A fan asks if Bennett would do a book with any of the women in TEC and why isn't there a new Gotham City Sirens book?" Bennet said she'd like to and that she has some pitches lying around. Murphy jokes that he'd do the covers.


So Bennett has pitches for Cass and Steph books? _That_ I'll believe when I see them appear in Bombshells.  :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

> So Bennett has pitches for Cass and Steph books? _That_ I'll believe when I see them appear in Bombshells.


Same. I have no faith.

----------


## adrikito

> So Bennett has pitches for Cass and Steph books? _That_ I'll believe when I see them appear in Bombshells.


Harper was in Bombshells and.. Cass and Steph can´t appear? I can´t believe this..  :Mad:   :Mad:

----------


## millernumber1

> Harper was in Bombshells and they can´t appear? I can´t believe this..


What's worse is that Nell, who was created as Steph's supporting character, is in Bombshells, but Steph isn't. I'm thrilled that Nell has legs beyond Batgirl, but that was just really irritating.

----------


## adrikito

> What's worse is that Nell, who was created as Steph's supporting character, is in Bombshells, but Steph isn't. I'm thrilled that Nell has legs beyond Batgirl, but that was just really irritating.


Oh, I remember her... That little girl in Steph Batgirl comic..

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh, I remember her... That little girl in Steph Batgirl comic..


Yup. Also future Batgirl!
Batgirl (2009-2011) 024-018.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> yup. Also future batgirl!
> Batgirl (2009-2011) 024-018.jpg


Smallville.. WHAT? I never saw her in this image..  :Confused:  Seems that I only saw Steph part..

But like here... We are unlucky with Steph luck..  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> smallville..


No, that's from Batgirl #24.

The Smallville confusion was a few years later.  :Frown:

----------


## adrikito

> No, that's from Batgirl #24.
> 
> The Smallville confusion was a few years later.


Oh, sorry I forgot that..

----------


## Blight

> No, that's from Batgirl #24.
> 
> The Smallville confusion was a few years later.


Yeah that was during the dark times. The toxic times. When Steph and Cass got removed because of being claimed as "toxic". More likely they kind of outshine Barbara who's downgraded to a lesser role.

----------


## godisawesome

> Yeah that was during the dark times. The toxic times. When Steph and Cass got removed because of being claimed as "toxic". More likely they kind of outshine Barbara who's downgraded to a lesser role.


That was sooooo frustrating to me. I know this is still a tender subject on this entire forum, but why on Earth did they look at the female side of the Batfamily, with what I'd argue was still an extraordinarily deep bench of worthwhile and proven characters, and then decide that their New 52 plan would require a scorched earth policy, and not even for an amalgamated Oracle and Batgirl version of Barbara Gordon, but for what was kind of a JV roster version of a Varsity-level character? 

Just look at the female side of the Batman family:
-Babs as Oracle, a powerful fixture of the DCU acting as a lead on a successful (if somewhat less glorious than previous) team book and as a deuteragonist on a critical and cult hit.
-Kate as a Batwoman clearly capable of a strong first solo run when she'd finally get her shot.
-Stephanie as the star of that earlier mentioned cult hit.
-Cass as a finally returned character with enough good will even after the butchery of the Heel turn to help sell a miniseries.
-Pretty much every other character in Birds of Prey.

They looked at all that, and somehow, the process came out as "Babs as Batgirl = the most marketable, but also = fragile, so NO! on even the barest whisper of Stephanie and Cassandra." I can sort of see some of the incredibly flawed and unambitious thinking behind that inaccurate equation, but in exchange for a Babs who wasn't Oracle? Didn't rise above TKJ? Why?

----------


## Assam

I know we've all seen this piece, but it's so pretty, I figure its worth sharing again since I just bought the print version from Peter Nguyen

Nugyen.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> I know we've all seen this piece, but it's so pretty, I figure its worth sharing again since I just bought the print version from Peter Nguyen
> 
> Nugyen.jpg


Nice! Cass and Steph look amazing  :Big Grin: .

----------


## The Whovian

> I know we've all seen this piece, but it's so pretty, I figure its worth sharing again since I just bought the print version from Peter Nguyen
> 
> Nugyen.jpg


Oh, man. I am so jealous! Can I ask how much it cost?

----------


## Assam

> Oh, man. I am so jealous! Can I ask how much it cost?


Only 10 bucks! An AMAZING deal I think.  :Smile: 

I don't usually like when artists give Cass a more armored look (she really shouldn't need it) but Nguyen just makes it look SO cool.

----------


## godisawesome

Nguyen makes _everything_ look good...

----------


## The Whovian

> Only 10 bucks! An AMAZING deal I think. 
> 
> I don't usually like when artists give Cass a more armored look (she really shouldn't need it) but Nguyen just makes it look SO cool.


That's it? Do you know if he still has more of them?

----------


## Assam

> That's it? Do you know if he still has more of them?


Probably. He definitely had multiple left when I got mine.

----------


## The Whovian

> Probably. He definitely had multiple left when I got mine.


I feel stupid for asking this, but does he have it for sale on his website that you go to to ask him for one or just e-mail him? The reason I ask is because I've checked his website and don't see it for sell.

----------


## Assam

> I feel stupid for asking this, but does he have it for sale on his website that you go to to ask him for one or just e-mail him? The reason I ask is because I've checked his website and don't see it for sell.


I got it from him at his table at NYCC. Didn't have to go to his website or e-mail him beforehand or anything.

----------


## The Whovian

> I got it from him at his table at NYCC. Didn't have to go to his website or e-mail him beforehand or anything.


Ah, I see. Well, I don't think he has anymore then. I'm still going to try and e-mail him to find out though. Thanks Assam!

----------


## Assam

> Ah, I see. Well, I don't think he has anymore then. I'm still going to try and e-mail him to find out though. Thanks Assam!


No problem. Hope it works out!

----------


## Blight

> I know we've all seen this piece, but it's so pretty, I figure its worth sharing again since I just bought the print version from Peter Nguyen
> 
> Attachment 55874


That is a gorgeous print. I remember at C2E2 this past year, he didn't have that print available (he didn't think it was popular enough or it was eliminated by process of elimination given the other prints he had. I can't remember which one it was but it wasn't available at the con).  I told him that I so wanted that print badly I purchased the print on eBay at the end of the year (paid double the price). But I told him that's why I did it. Cause it was so hard to find that darn print, and it's such a beautitful work of art. Plus it's so darn hard finding prints of either two. Next day at the con I brought the print in a portfolio book (because I was getting the two pages of Batman & Robin Eternal #13 signed by Tynion) and had that print included. Got Peter to personally sign it to me this time.




> Ah, I see. Well, I don't think he has anymore then. I'm still going to try and e-mail him to find out though. Thanks Assam!


Do so. Just tell him the truth. You're a fan of the characters and couldn't make the con. Don't do what I did. Not when you can approuch the artist directly.

----------


## Assam

> Plus it's so darn hard finding prints of either two.


Right?! You'd think there would be more  given the size of their fanbases, but I barely ever see prints for the two. Whenever an artist is selling a print of "DC Female Heroes", it's ALWAYS Babs and/or Kate that's included. 

I blame the Nu52 erasing them.

----------


## Blight

> Right?! You'd think there would be more  given the size of their fanbases, but I barely ever see prints for the two. Whenever an artist is selling a print of "DC Female Heroes", it's ALWAYS Babs and/or Kate that's included. 
> 
> I blame the Nu52 erasing them.


It isn't just the New 52. It's also the fact that after DC was done with them. That was it. There wasn't any promotion or fanfare. They buried them then brought them out to bury them again. It's more a calculated move to drive away the fan base to allow moves (such as Babs being brought back as Batgirl) to happen. Then there's the flip side to which Babs will always be more drawn because of: cheesecake. You ain't ever gonna see a Cass/Steph print like the ones you see of Babs as Batgirl in various artist alleys because their not seen  as a sexually liberated character like Babs is (or go for the easy cheesecake money). Perhaps in a way that's better that way. Because if you do see a Cass or Steph print. You know it's by an artist who understands the character more, and it's probbaly a favorite of their's. 

For Cass, the prints that artists have of her are showcasing the fact she's a badass hero and showcase the bad ass part. If not that it's acknowledging her as a core member of the family (when showing off Bruce and the kids) or the legacy portion of the Batgirl mantle. The prints are out there. Cause I have a whole darn portfoilio book of just Bat prints. Though, those that have a ton of Cass prints: Dustin Nguyen, Peter Nguyen, and Marcus To. You begin to notice another fact as to why they do it. They also kind of realize the importance that she was basically the biggest Asian female hero for a good chunk of time. She was a trailblazer. Yet some people and companies forget that fact. These artists don't.

There was a panel this past year at C2E2, that involved Asian Characters and Creators. It dabbled more into the creator portion than the characters, given the time limits (the panel was sadly only an hour). But I find the subject fascinating, but I kept quiet throughout it all because I realized the subject was leaning toward the other because these creators answered questions that new folk had on getting into the industry. I didn't want to subject the panel to a lesser character question.

----------


## Assam

> It isn't just the New 52. It's also the fact that after DC was done with them. That was it. There wasn't any promotion or fanfare. They buried them then brought them out to bury them again. It's more a calculated move to drive away the fan base to allow moves (such as Babs being brought back as Batgirl) to happen.


Sadly true as well. 




> If not that it's acknowledging her as a core member of the family (when showing off Bruce and the kids) or the legacy portion of the Batgirl mantle. The prints are out there. Cause I have a whole darn portfoilio book of just Bat prints.


Hopefully I'll come across some eventually. 




> Though, those that have a ton of Cass prints: Dustin Nguyen, Peter Nguyen, and Marcus To. You begin to notice another fact as to why they do it. They also kind of realize the importance that she was basically the biggest Asian female hero for a good chunk of time. She was a trailblazer. Yet some people and companies forget that fact. These artists don't.


Cass is definitely _still_ one of the biggest Asian heroes (female or otherwise) in the Big 2, even if she's not as popular as she was when still Batgirl. Besides Katana, whose fanbase purely among comic fans I'd argue isn't significantly larger, if at all, than Cass's,  DC doesn't have anyone that competes. (Besides Damian, but DC definitely doesn't see him as Asian. :Frown:  ) And Marvel? Much like DC they do have a handful of good/great Asian characters (I'd argue DC has more, sad as that is to say, especially when you consider how DC has treated most of their popular Asian characters) but Jubilee is really the only one who might have as much of a fanbase as Cass from what I can tell. I specifically say "As much" because I freely admit that Kamala is FAR more popular than Cass currently, much as she's more popular than MOST comic characters right now.

But yes, as you say, it is good that these artists recognize her significance.

----------


## Blight

There are four artists that I know of who have Cass prints. Craig Rousseau (single with Bruce), Christopher Jones (Batgirls), and three artists whose names I can't recall sadly. I just know one made her deviantart print of Cass (based on Kill Bill Vol. 1). The other two were Bat Family prints that I bought at midwest cons (and I've seen these artists there a lot in the past). One is of Cass, Bruce, Tim, Selina, and Gordon. The other is of Bruce, Damian, Barbara, Kate, Dick, Selina, Cass, and Tim.

----------


## The Whovian

> There are four artists that I know of who have Cass prints. Craig Rousseau (single with Bruce), Christopher Jones (Batgirls), and three artists whose names I can't recall sadly. I just know one made her deviantart print of Cass (based on Kill Bill Vol. 1). The other two were Bat Family prints that I bought at midwest cons (and I've seen these artists there a lot in the past). One is of Cass, Bruce, Tim, Selina, and Gordon. The other is of Bruce, Damian, Barbara, Kate, Dick, Selina, Cass, and Tim.


How much did their prints cost?

----------


## Blight

> How much did their prints cost?


The Batfamily (Bruce, Tim, Cass, Selina, and Jim) was $10. The other Batfamily one was $15-20. I can't recall the full price. Christopher Jones' print is usually $30, but he has sales at his booth where you can buy a bunch at a reduced price. $20 was for Craig's print of Cass/Bruce, but you're going to have to message or e-mail him to get that print. The Kill Bill volume 1 with Cass was like $30 or more.

----------


## The Whovian

> The Batfamily (Bruce, Tim, Cass, Selina, and Jim) was $10. The other Batfamily one was $15-20. I can't recall the full price. Christopher Jones' print is usually $30, but he has sales at his booth where you can buy a bunch at a reduced price. $20 was for Craig's print of Cass/Bruce, but you're going to have to message or e-mail him to get that print. The Kill Bill volume 1 with Cass was like $30 or more.


Cool, thanks!

----------


## AJpyro

I did it friends. I finished Cass's last big trade. I am now sad that there's not more.

----------


## Assam

> I did it friends. I finished Cass's last big trade. I am now sad that there's not more.


Well, hopefully they'll eventually release the Horricks and Gabrych runs. Both have some real crap in there, but there's also plenty of greatness. 

Any final thoughts on Puckett's run? Favorite aspects? Favorite issues? Thoughts on Cass?

----------


## PyroTwilight

This is something that was brought up and I saw it chatted about on tumblr (particularly due to the recent arc she, Zatanna and Batwoman teamed up) but what do Cass' fans feel about her potentially coming out onto the LGBT spectrum (regardless of where exactly)?

----------


## Assam

> This is something that was brought up and I saw it chatted about on tumblr (particularly due to the recent arc she, Zatanna and Batwoman teamed up) but what do Cass' fans feel about her potentially coming out onto the LGBT spectrum (regardless of where exactly)?


I would love it. I've personally always headcanoned her as Pan.

----------


## AJpyro

> Well, hopefully they'll eventually release the Horricks and Gabrych runs. Both have some real crap in there, but there's also plenty of greatness. 
> 
> Any final thoughts on Puckett's run? Favorite aspects? Favorite issues? Thoughts on Cass?


The artwork just works. Especially on the violence. Favorite aspect/issues: the ones that deal with David Cain and Shiva. Dysfunctional doesn't cover it. And the last issue is close(to me) to Miller's DD issue featuring Chucky.

It also has me greatly interested in Dixon stories.

----------


## PyroTwilight

> BlackSteph has gotten pretty popular on Tumblr.


I know this is from about a month ago but Steph's one of those characters that I remember being debated a lot about at one point regarding her race.  

Particularly regarding whether she was supposed to be "just" white. As the art made for her mother varied so greatly that many thought she might be part Latin/Hispanic in particular. 

Makes me wonder similarly about Jason at times. I mean we know Lady Shiva is Cass' mom of course but I was always struck by Batman thinknig Lady Shiva might be Jason's mother during Death in the Family all those years ago. Doesn't that mean in universe Bruce honestly thought Jason's mother could've been Asian and that he might look it?

----------


## Aahz

> Makes me wonder similarly about Jason at times. I mean we know Lady Shiva is Cass' mom of course but I was always struck by Batman thinknig Lady Shiva might be Jason's mother during Death in the Family all those years ago. Doesn't that mean in universe Bruce honestly thought Jason's mother could've been Asian and that he might look it?


The thing is that Shiva might originally not have been fully Asian her self. At least here she is called "eurasian".

----------


## Assam

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/detective-comics-76/

WELL...okay then. At first I was just gonna make a joke about how Tynion keeps changing how old Cass is, BUT, that's pretty irrelevant compared to the facts that: A) We've got confirmation that Cass's arc is coming in Spring, B) It's going to have heavy focus on her relationship with Bruce, C) Tynion understands what was done wrong last time around, and D) The adoption getting restored is looking more and more likely! 

Not gonna lie, I really needed this.  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> http://thebatmanuniverse.net/detective-comics-76/
> 
> WELL...okay then. At first I was just gonna make a joke about how Tynion keeps changing how old Cass is, BUT, that's pretty irrelevant compared to the facts that: A) We've got confirmation that Cass's arc is coming in Spring, B) It's going to have heavy focus on her relationship with Bruce, C) Tynion understands what was done wrong last time around, and D) The adoption getting restored is looking more and more likely! 
> 
> Not gonna lie, I really needed this.


Haha, I didn't even notice - though to be fair, since we don't have documentation in BRE on exactly how old Cass is, there's no real confirmation this is a change.  :Smile: 

I am SO HYPED about the next Cass arc. (Even more hyped if Tynion is committed to rebuilding Steph and Cass as well as Bruce and Cass.)

I'm not sure where we see that Tynion understands the problems of League of Shadows, though?  (Of course, I'm one of the only people I know who thinks that League of Shadows had a pretty great endings, so...)
(and just to clarify, I think it was great because it was great for Cass, not because I think a crummy ending is what Cass deserves. We've gone around about it before, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Cass deserves the best stories, and I think League of Shadows was great because of how it handled her).

----------


## The Whovian

> http://thebatmanuniverse.net/detective-comics-76/
> 
> WELL...okay then. At first I was just gonna make a joke about how Tynion keeps changing how old Cass is, BUT, that's pretty irrelevant compared to the facts that: A) We've got confirmation that Cass's arc is coming in Spring, B) It's going to have heavy focus on her relationship with Bruce, C) Tynion understands what was done wrong last time around, and D) The adoption getting restored is looking more and more likely! 
> 
> Not gonna lie, I really needed this.


That's good news for Cass indeed

----------


## Assam

> Haha, I didn't even notice - though to be fair, since we don't have documentation in BRE on exactly how old Cass is, there's no real confirmation this is a change.


I dunno, I think it's kinda important to know how old characters are in relation to each other, especially in the BatFam. I still see people thinking that she's Damian's age now. 




> (Even more hyped if Tynion is committed to rebuilding Steph and Cass as well as Bruce and Cass.)


Let's hope so! 




> I'm not sure where we see that Tynion understands the problems of League of Shadows, though?


Not what I meant, sorry. I meant that he acknowledges where the Bat-office went wrong post-original adoption in the old continuity. 




> (and just to clarify, I think it was great because it was great for Cass, not because I think a crummy ending is what Cass deserves. We've gone around about it before, but I'm firmly of the opinion that Cass deserves the best stories, and I think League of Shadows was great because of how it handled her).


And while still I don't agree with you that the arc was "great"  I do believe that Cass's story in it did still make it "good", despite the plotting issues, #954 in its entirety and (IMO) the ending.

----------


## Assam

This should be here too. Too adorable not to be. 

bruce and his favorites.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> I dunno, I think it's kinda important to know how old characters are in relation to each other, especially in the BatFam. I still see people thinking that she's Damian's age now. 
> 
> Not what I meant, sorry. I meant that he acknowledges where the Bat-office went wrong post-original adoption in the old continuity. 
> 
> And while still I don't agree with you that the arc was "great"  I do believe that Cass's story in it did still make it "good", despite the plotting issues, #954 in its entirety and (IMO) the ending.


Ah, I understand about Tynion knowing what to avoid. And yes, I thought that was a really awesome part of the interview - I will be SO PLEASED if Cass gets her rightful place as Bruce's daughter back.

I did not realize people actually thought she was 13. Wow. But then again, I've always thought Tim was perpetually 15-16, but am shocked to find out that in Lonely Place of Dying he was about 10-12.

As for the "ending" of League of Shadows - the reason I think it's a really good arc, especially for Cass, is the theme of the dancer and the shadow, and the fact that she beats EVERYBODY in a fight. The "ending" is just that - not an ending, because it's setting up for the long game.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I did not realize people actually thought she was 13. Wow. But then again, I've always thought Tim was perpetually 15-16, but am shocked to find out that in Lonely Place of Dying he was about 10-12.


He was 9 when he deduced the identities, and 13 when he became Robin. I think the joke of him being perpetually 16 comes from the fact that he WAS aging, and then just stopped for about a decade, with even OYL not able to make him older.

----------


## millernumber1

> He was 9 when he deduced the identities, and 13 when he became Robin. I think the joke of him being perpetually 16 comes from the fact that he WAS aging, and then just stopped for about a decade, with even OYL not able to make him older.


Ah. 13 still seems so young to me.

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

I go back and forth on Tynion......I have the utmost love and respect since he has brought Cass out of the ashes and made her relevant again. I just wish she was more focused on in the series.....But this news is amazing. I really hope that DC embraces what we all know-she is an amazing and VIABLE character. 

Also, has anyone thought about what Shiva said to Cass as she died? What if Bruce was her BIOLOGICAL dad somehow?

----------


## millernumber1

> I go back and forth on Tynion......I have the utmost love and respect since he has brought Cass out of the ashes and made her relevant again. I just wish she was more focused on in the series.....But this news is amazing. I really hope that DC embraces what we all know-she is an amazing and VIABLE character. 
> 
> Also, has anyone thought about what Shiva said to Cass as she died? What if Bruce was her BIOLOGICAL dad somehow?


Uh...wut? That would be really strange.

----------


## Assam

> Also, has anyone thought about what Shiva said to Cass as she died? What if Bruce was her BIOLOGICAL dad somehow?





> Uh...wut? That would be really strange.


I've heard the idea proposed that that was what was whispered before and...I _really_ don't know how I'd feel about that. Were this the old continuity, I DEFINITELY wouldn't accept it, but...with David Cain sufficiently ruined as a character, along with Cass's entire origin, and most of her development not-present...I _might_ like it? It'd really come down to the execution I think.

In general though, I would just prefer the adoption come back and be treated the way it should have been originally.

----------


## millernumber1

> I've heard the idea proposed that that was what was whispered before and...I _really_ don't know how I'd feel about that. Were this the old continuity, I DEFINITELY wouldn't accept it, but...with David Cain sufficiently ruined as a character, along with Cass's entire origin, and most of her development not-present...I _might_ like it? It'd really come down to the execution I think.


I would not be a fan. It would be too obvious a retcon, and I love the adoption story way more than "Bruce forgot he had another kid somewhere."

----------


## TheCape

You know, i always wonder what would be the reaction if DC pulled a Batman Beyond with the first 3 Robins, it would explain why they look like Bruce's clones  :Big Grin:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I would not be a fan. It would be too obvious a retcon, and I love the adoption story way more than "Bruce forgot he had another kid somewhere."


But it's very much in character for Bruce to forget about his kids  :Stick Out Tongue:  Just kidding

----------


## KrustyKid

> You know, i always wonder what would be the reaction if DC pulled a Batman Beyond with the first 3 Robins, it would explain why they look like Bruce's clones


Something like that would be laughingly bad, lol

----------


## Assam

> I would not be a fan. It would be too obvious a retcon, and I love the adoption story way more than "Bruce forgot he had another kid somewhere."


As I just edited my post to mention, I agree that the adoption would be MUCH better than the retcon. And you are right that it'd be a little silly. 

Also, while I love the adoption and every wonderful BatDad and Cass moment we got pre-2006, I can't say I love the "story" because of all the crap that happened. She _really_ should have been adopted at the end of Murderer/Fugitive.

----------


## millernumber1

> As I just edited my post to mention, I agree that the adoption would be MUCH better than the retcon. And you are right that it'd be a little silly. 
> 
> Also, while I love the adoption and every wonderful BatDad and Cass moment we got pre-2006, I can't say I love the "story" because of all the crap that happened. She _really_ should have been adopted at the end of Murderer/Fugitive.


You're not wrong. I just hate the "secret kid" storyline - not to mention the "blood trumps love" stuff that Damian has been encouraging for the past decade.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> As for the "ending" of League of Shadows - the reason I think it's a really good arc, especially for Cass, is the theme of the dancer and the shadow, and the fact that she beats EVERYBODY in a fight. The "ending" is just that - not an ending, because it's setting up for the long game.


I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.

----------


## TheCape

[QUOTE][Something like that would be laughingly bad, lol/QUOTE]
It would be, but now it gave me.the idea for an interesting Metal Gear AU.

----------


## Assam

> You're not wrong. I just hate the "secret kid" storyline -* not to mention the "blood trumps love" stuff that Damian has been encouraging for the past decade*.


Yeah, you know that gets my blood boiling too.  :Mad: 




> I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.


While I do still think of the arc somewhat more fondly than you, this is mostly all true and well said.

----------


## millernumber1

> I wasn't a fan of that arc because it reinforces what some people dislike about Cass; they see her as this unbeatable fighting machine with no real personality. Having a real ending would have helped to show that there's a real character underneath it all but I felt Cass came off a bit one note in this arc. And beating million mook ninjas is never as good as a good 1 vs 1.


But she also had a one on one with Shiva.  I'm not convinced that a real ending would have been better - because my favorite bits were the prologue issues (950) and the issue where the dancer comes back and reads the book to Cass.

----------


## Aahz

> I go back and forth on Tynion......I have the utmost love and respect since he has brought Cass out of the ashes and made her relevant again. I just wish she was more focused on in the series.....


I think it is in general a problem with Cass in Team books (at least if it is not a very small team), if she isn't really in the center of the story she tends to fade in the background.

----------


## Assam

> I think it is in general a problem with Cass in Team books (at least if it is not a very small team), if she isn't really in the center of the story she tends to fade in the background.


What exactly are you basing that off of? There are plenty of examples of her working well in teams with the BatFam,  she worked well alongside the "New" Young Justice for an issue, and the only times she's gotten to be a full member of a proper team are Justice League Elite, which was a maxi-series where Cass, like most characters not named Vera Black, was a designated side-character with their own sub-plot, and the Outsiders, where she wasn't even written properly.

----------


## Aahz

Mostly bigger Batfamily cross over stuff, when she doesn't have her own subplot she is often just there.

And the current TEC it seems similar.

Thats in general a problem with quiter characters, Raven has imo a similar problem in Titans.

----------


## Assam

> Mostly bigger Batfamily cross over stuff, when she doesn't have her own subplot she is often just there.


Examples? The many times she's worked with 1-3 other members in normal issues have often been great, and as far as the "bigger" crossovers go: 

No Man's Land was her introduction. Murderer/Fugitive: Despite the plot being about her, the story really wasn't, and like Tim and Dick, her contributions were mostly relegated to her solo; she wasn't unique there is what I'm saying. Hush: She wasn't in it because of Jim Lee. War Games: Horrocks deliberately kept her out of the crossover as much as possible because he hated the storyline and didn't want her involved. RIP and Battle for the Cowl: Excluded. 




> And the current TEC it seems similar.


That comes down to Tynion as a writer, and the fact that this a focus arc style team book.

----------


## Aahz

> Examples?


It is more that I can't really remember much of her in any cross overs.

I was thinking of stuff like Gates of Gotham and Batman: Outlaws but I haven't read those in long time.

----------


## Assam

> It is more that I can't really remember much of her in any cross overs.


I just covered all the "bigger" ones, and explained why. 




> I was thinking of stuff like Gates of Gotham and Batman: Outlaws but I haven't read those in long time.


Batman: Outlaws was only 3 issues long, Cass only getting cameos in the first two, and was as much of a side character as Tim there. Toss in that the book as a whole was unmemorable, and I don't think it says much. Honestly, the only cool thing from Outlaws was this gloriously cheesy group shot:

cheese.jpg

And if you find her unmemorable in Gates of Gotham, fair enough, but it's the only thing she was in between 2006 and 2016 that most Cass fans agree used her well. Even if her voice was off at times, I still really enjoyed her presence in that story, mainly her interactions with Tim and Damian.

----------


## millernumber1

> What exactly are you basing that off of? There are plenty of examples of her working well in teams with the BatFam,  she worked well alongside the "New" Young Justice for an issue, and the only times she's gotten to be a full member of a proper team are Justice League Elite, which was a maxi-series where Cass, like most characters not named Vera Black, was a designated side-character with their own sub-plot, and the Outsiders, where she wasn't even written properly.


I disagree about Cass in Outsiders - I thought she was really fun, and if Tomasi hadn't taken over the series, I think even Tieri could have made her into a great team leader.

----------


## Assam

> I disagree about Cass in Outsiders - I thought she was really fun, and if Tomasi hadn't taken over the series, I think even Tieri could have made her into a great team leader.


She was far from at her worst there. How she handled Ollie when he was being a hypocritical ass was great, her interactions with Tatsu are the closest I've come to liking Katana, she got some nice, badass moments and I absolutely agree that she would made a great leader, had it not been for Tomasi's Atlanta96 levels of hate for her. (No offense is made to you Atlanta if you're seeing this, but you do hate some characters very passionately  :Stick Out Tongue:  ) But at the same time, I felt she was very _off_, with Dixon often  seemingly taking inspiration from that god awful line in Birds of Prey, and actually having her be "The Broody Batgirl". Her personality was lacking in a lot of ways and her voice was off; much moreso than in Gates of Gotham, and probably about as bad as Convergence: Batgirl

Also, the orange juice scene. I get what he was going for there, but it just came off as cringey for me.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Examples? The many times she's worked with 1-3 other members in normal issues have often been great, and as far as the "bigger" crossovers go: 
> 
> No Man's Land was her introduction. Murderer/Fugitive: Despite the plot being about her, the story really wasn't, and like Tim and Dick, her contributions were mostly relegated to her solo; she wasn't unique there is what I'm saying. Hush: She wasn't in it because of Jim Lee. War Games: Horrocks deliberately kept her out of the crossover as much as possible because he hated the storyline and didn't want her involved. RIP and Battle for the Cowl: Excluded.


Cass was never on a teen team, and was ignored by the Superman/Batman title. In Gotham Knights, the Bat family book, she was lucky to be a supporting character. In the individual books themselves, Cass was on the fringes. I can't think of a single meaningful team-up Cass had with Nightwing, at all, and with Robin prior to moving to Bludhaven. And I can only think of two times Cass teamed up with Batman to a meaningful degree. Three, if one counts Batman saving Cain.

Huntress got more frequent flier miles than Cass, and I'm not counting Birds. And of course, the embargo.

I love Cass, but she's always been the odd man out on the Bat fam. Brubaker's the only one who really embraced her, everyone else resents that she's not Babs or have no idea how to use her

----------


## Assam

> Cass was never on a teen team, and was ignored by the Superman/Batman title. In Gotham Knights, the Bat family book, she was lucky to be a supporting character. In the individual books themselves, Cass was on the fringes. I can't think of a single meaningful team-up Cass had with Nightwing, at all, and with Robin prior to moving to Bludhaven. And I can only think of two times Cass teamed up with Batman to a meaningful degree. Three, if one counts Batman saving Cain.
> 
> Huntress got more frequent flier miles than Cass, and I'm not counting Birds. And of course, the embargo.
> 
> I love Cass, but she's always been the odd man out on the Bat fam. Brubaker's the only one who really embraced her, everyone else resents that she's not Babs or have no idea how to use her


The argument being made wasn't whether or not Cass got a lot to do in team-ups. The argument was about how Cass works with teams, and my pointing out that there really isn't enough data to make an argument one way or another. 

Also, while she was criminally underutilized, I do like some of her appearances in Gotham Knights, a handful of interactions with Dick, although the only time they worked together, just the two of them, was in the Murderer/Fugitive tie-in in Cass's book, several with Tim prior to Bludhaven, most notably Batgirl #18 where they first became friends, and I'm really not sure how you get that number for Bruce when he was a regular supporting character for most of her book...

Wait, were you talking about team-ups OUTSIDE her book? Because that's _really_ not what we were talking about.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## reni344

> Cass was never on a teen team, and was ignored by the Superman/Batman title. In Gotham Knights, the Bat family book, she was lucky to be a supporting character. In the individual books themselves, Cass was on the fringes. I can't think of a single meaningful team-up Cass had with Nightwing, at all, and with Robin prior to moving to Bludhaven. And I can only think of two times Cass teamed up with Batman to a meaningful degree. Three, if one counts Batman saving Cain.
> 
> Huntress got more frequent flier miles than Cass, and I'm not counting Birds. And of course, the embargo.
> 
> I love Cass, but she's always been the odd man out on the Bat fam. Brubaker's the only one who really embraced her, everyone else resents that she's not Babs or have no idea how to use her


This could explain why I really never knew about Cass I found out about her long after the fact. She did not ahve a meanigful appearance to my knowledge in any Bat title I was reading. I read Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, Catwoman and Batgirl with Steph and I think that was the first time I saw her. Or it might have been Teen Titans.

----------


## Assam

> This could explain why I really never knew about Cass I found out about her long after the fact. She did not ahve a meanigful appearance to my knowledge in any Bat title I was reading. I read Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, Catwoman and Batgirl with Steph and I think that was the first time I saw her. Or it might have been Teen Titans.


Want a full recommendation list? After the last time someone asked for one, I decided, "Hey, how about I stop being an idiot and actually save this" so I can just pull it up for you if you'd like.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> The argument being made wasn't whether or not Cass got a lot to do in team-ups. The argument was about how Cass works with teams, and my pointing out that there really isn't enough data to make an argument one way or another. 
> 
> Also, while she was criminally underutilized, I do like some of her appearances in Gotham Knights, a handful of interactions with Dick, although the only time they worked together, just the two of them, was in the Murderer/Fugitive tie-in in Cass's book, several with Tim prior to Bludhaven, most notably Batgirl #18 where they first became friends, and I'm really not sure how you get that number for Bruce when he was a regular supporting character for most of her book...
> 
> Wait, were you talking about team-ups OUTSIDE her book? Because that's _really_ not what we were talking about.


Ah okay  :Wink: 

And I got that number for Bruce because while he often appeared in her book, she virtually never appeared in his book. And Cass had some neat moments in Knights, but she never had any *plots*

----------


## sakuyamons

Batgirls are often left out of team books, for some reason. Excluding Barbara, of course, I wouldn't call Cass the odd man out...if someone was interested, she'd be as popular as X-23 at Marvel.

----------


## Frontier

> Batgirls are often left out of team books, for some reason. Excluding Barbara, of course, I wouldn't call Cass the odd man out...if someone was interested, she'd be as popular as X-23 at Marvel.


I think she does have some surprising similarities to Laura Kinney.

----------


## Assam

> I think she does have some surprising similarities to Laura Kinney.


They're definitely there, but I think people tend to overemphasize them, and in the process, do a disservice to them both. Yes, on the surface, there are many shared traits and they most definitely are part of the same archetype. However, their characters are vastly different once you get to who they really are as people. And considering I feel that they're two of the most complex, well-developed and unique characters their respective companies have, it's a little irksome to see some people calling them basically the same because of the things they do share, without looking at all their differences. (Obviously not talking about either of you Frontier or Sakuyamons, just saying in general.) If Laura was Cass with claws, I wouldn't love her like I do (she's currently my #2 hero over at Marvel) because I don't much care for rip-offs. (Also frustrating: People who don't know how linear time works and call Cass a clone of Laura. Damn it people, you can literally find out the dates of their first appearances in less than 30 seconds on your phones.)

----------


## Frontier

> *They're definitely there, but I think people tend to overemphasize them, and in the process, do a disservice to them both*. Yes, on the surface, there are many shared traits and they most definitely are part of the same archetype. However, their characters are vastly different once you get to who they really are as people. And considering I feel that they're two of the most complex, well-developed and unique characters their respective companies have, it's a little irksome to see some people calling them basically the same because of the things they do share, without looking at all their differences. (Obviously not talking about either of you Frontier or Sakuyamons, just saying in general.) If Laura was Cass with claws, I wouldn't love her like I do (she's currently my #2 hero over at Marvel) because I don't much care for rip-offs. (Also frustrating: People who don't know how linear time works and call Cass a clone of Laura. Damn it people, you can literally find out the dates of their first appearances in less than 30 seconds on your phones.)


I think that's true for virtually any character comparison between DC and Marvel characters.

----------


## AJpyro

> Want a full recommendation list? After the last time someone asked for one, I decided, "Hey, how about I stop being an idiot and actually save this" so I can just pull it up for you if you'd like.


Pm me that list please?

----------


## Assam

> Pm me that list please?


Sure thing!

----------


## sakuyamons

> I think that's true for virtually any character comparison between DC and Marvel characters.


Yeah  :Stick Out Tongue:  and I don’t think Laura’s creators were like “hey!! Let’s make a Cass knock-off”

Who’s your #1 marvel hero, Assam?

----------


## Assam

> Who’s your #1 marvel hero, Assam?


squirrel girl.jpg

Doreen Green: The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl

----------


## Frontier

> squirrel girl.jpg
> 
> 10char


This does not surprise me in the slightest  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Sure thing!


I'm really curious about this question: What makes a good list? Length, number of issues, importance, etc? Like, whenever someone asks me, "What should I read of Steph," I just say, "BEHOLD THE STEPH WIKI", but that's probably a lot to absorb (though I've tried to make it pretty easy to find storylines and stuff). But I'm wondering if I need to develop a shortlist of "Best Steph" or something.

----------


## Assam

> This does not surprise me in the slightest .


Yeah, I guess with my DC tastes it isn't exactly shocking that I'd adore Doreen and her book. (Not that there isn't tons of dark, serious and very intelligent stuff I enjoy, but I've made my love of pure fun no secret.) 

The funny thing with Marvel is that most of my top favorites I've only been introduced to recently (Kamala and Doreen), only really gotten into recently (Laura), or only been introduced to in the last few months (The Runaways). 

As a kid, when someone asked me who my favorite Marvel hero was, I'd give one of four answers generally: Sam Wilson, Steve Rogers, Scott Summers, or Kurt Wagner. Still love those guys and Sam is on top among them, but they've been surpassed in my eyes. 




> I'm really curious about this question: What makes a good list? Length, number of issues, importance, etc? Like, whenever someone asks me, "What should I read of Steph," I just say, "BEHOLD THE STEPH WIKI", but that's probably a lot to absorb (though I've tried to make it pretty easy to find storylines and stuff). But I'm wondering if I need to develop a shortlist of "Best Steph" or something.


For mine, I broke it down into three categories:

1) Stuff that you shouldn't read under any circumstances. 

2) The ESSENTIAL stuff. The reasons as to why they're so loved, and display different aspects of the character and their relationships. 

3) Other stuff that isn't bad, but isn't essential. 

And I finish with a clarification that while there's more than what I've mentioned, it's not unreadable, but it isn't good either.

----------


## millernumber1

> For mine, I broke it down into three categories:
> 
> 1) Stuff that you shouldn't read under any circumstances. 
> 
> 2) The ESSENTIAL stuff. The reasons as to why they're so loved, and display different aspects of the characters and relationships. 
> 
> 3) Other stuff that isn't bad, but isn't essential. 
> 
> And I finish with a clarification that while there's more than what I've mentioned, it's not unreadable, but it isn't good either.


Hmm. Interesting. I shall think on it. Thanks!

----------


## Aahz

> Batman: Outlaws was only 3 issues long, Cass only getting cameos in the first two, and was as much of a side character as Tim there.


IIRC the issues had all double length, and I think that Tim had more screen time than Cass as had everybody else (Catwoman, Huntress, Nightwing).

----------


## Assam

I saw an Orphan and a Batgirl at NYCC, but I didn't see this very nice Black Bat cosplay. 

black bat NYCC.jpg

Not a fan of the heels, but people can do any variations they'd like.

----------


## Frontier

> I saw an Orphan and a Batgirl at NYCC, but I didn't see this very nice Black Bat cosplay. 
> 
> black bat NYCC.jpg


I approve of the cape scarf  :Smile: .

----------


## millernumber1

> I saw an Orphan and a Batgirl at NYCC, but I didn't see this very nice Black Bat cosplay. 
> 
> black bat NYCC.jpg
> 
> Not a fan of the heels, but people can do any variations they'd like.


Awesome! That reminds me I need to post the Spoiler cosplay I saw at Baltimore!

----------


## Assam

> Awesome! That reminds me I need to post the Spoiler cosplay I saw at Baltimore!


Just saw the image. Neat! 

Also, I don't post, but I HAVE been following 4chan threads for the comics I read for the last few weeks (Some of these people are truly awful) and I find it hilarious that people KEEP thinking you're me.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Just saw the image. Neat! 
> 
> Also, I don't post, but I HAVE been following 4chan threads for the comics I read for the last few weeks (Some of these people are truly awful) and I find it hilarious that people KEEP thinking you're me.


Haha. Yep. I don't even know how they make that mistake, since I always lead off with, "Steph fan."  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

What do you think the chances are we'll be seeing Takara  in 'Tec again come Spring? You know he'd _want_ to do anything focusing on Cass, and I think it'd be great if they gave him enough time to do the full arc, or maybe with only one fill-in.

----------


## millernumber1

> What do you think the chances are we'll be seeing Takara  in 'Tec again come Spring? You know he'd _want_ to do anything focusing on Cass, and I think it'd be great if they gave him enough time to do the full arc, or maybe with only one fill-in.


That's a very interesting question. I personally would rather see him do a fill-in one or two-shot, with LOTS of time to do it. His stuff has felt a bit rushed these past two years. In contrast, his stuff for All-New Wolverine and Batman and Robin Eternal was so clear and thoughtful.

----------


## Assam

> That's a very interesting question. I personally would rather see him do a fill-in one or two-shot, with LOTS of time to do it. His stuff has felt a bit rushed these past two years. In contrast, his stuff for All-New Wolverine and Batman and Robin Eternal was so clear and thoughtful.


I thought #950 was gorgeous, and I'm in the minority who thought, at least artistically, 955 and 966 looked good (At the very least, I love how he draws each of the characters.) even if I do agree that those two issues didn't look  nearly as good as ANW.

----------


## millernumber1

> I thought #950 was gorgeous, and I'm in the minority who thought, at least artistically, 955 and 966 looked good (At the very least, I love how he draws each of the characters.) even if I do agree that those two issues didn't look  nearly as good as ANW.


I don't think Takara did bad work, but it wasn't as amazing as 950 or BRE 13. Those are truly lovely comics, whereas the other books just felt competent.

----------


## Assam

By tater did a thing on Tumblr

brains brains its okay.jpg

And by Cass super-fan, Rena (Who made a joke about how this should have been in a The Road Home issue with Cass) 

the road home.jpg

Really, her not getting a The Road Home issue was just one of the many slaps in the face during that time period, and it's why it pisses me off whenever someone says, "Everything was great during the Batman Reborn Era! Things should be like they were there!" because no, everything wasn't and it shouldn't be. And you can always spot someone who doesn't actually give a crap about Cass when they say something like, "Dick was Batman, Damian was his Robin,Tim was Red Robin, Steph was Batgirl, _Cass was Black Bat_, and Babs was Oracle. It was perfect!"

----------


## The Whovian

> By tater did a thing on Tumblr
> 
> brains brains its okay.jpg


That's really cool

----------


## Frontier

> Really, her not getting a The Road Home issue was just one of the many slaps in the face during that time period, and it's why it pisses me off whenever someone says, "Everything was great during the Batman Reborn Era! Things should be like they were there!" because no, everything wasn't and it shouldn't be. And you can always spot someone who doesn't actually give a crap about Cass when they say something like, "Dick was Batman, Damian was his Robin,Tim was Red Robin, Steph was Batgirl, _Cass was Black Bat_, and Babs was Oracle. It was perfect!"


Would you be less bothered by Cass's Black Bat tenure if she was given more, solid, focus while using it?

----------


## Assam

> Would you be less bothered by Cass's Black Bat tenure if she was given more, solid, focus while using it?


Absolutely. While a better name would have been nice, and the writing for her wasn't perfect, that was unquestionably the worst aspect.  The fact is, despite how many people identify her as Black Bat and how much fanart and how many cosplays there are, there were only *6* issues where she was at all significant while using the identity. And those 6 issues were all in the last 5 months of Pre-Flashpoint continuity. I've outlined how I would have handled the transition before, and while I still think that path would have been ideal, even if just after the awful Batgirl #1, she immediately joined Tim on his quest in Red Robin and stuck around as his co-star or something like that, I'd be able to think more positively of the era. Ideally she should have gotten her OWN solo, but there was zero chance of that happening since DC still really just wanted her gone.

----------


## Blight

> What do you think the chances are we'll be seeing Takara  in 'Tec again come Spring? You know he'd _want_ to do anything focusing on Cass, and I think it'd be great if they gave him enough time to do the full arc, or maybe with only one fill-in.


I'd love it. He gets the character and I'd keep up the wonderful partnership of him and Tynion to happen.

----------


## Assam

Me: _Constantly talks about Cass_.

One of my best friends, eventually: "I don't really get the appeal. I've always been more interested in Babs and Steph." 

Me: _Sighs_ "Have you actually tried her solo book?"

Friend: "No. Why?" 

*One borrowed trade reading later*

Friend, earlier today: "I understand completely." 

Works every time.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Me: _Constantly talks about Cass_.
> 
> One of my best friends, eventually: "I don't really get the appeal. I've always been more interested in Babs and Steph." 
> 
> Me: _Sighs_ "Have you actually tried her solo book?"
> 
> Friend: "No. Why?" 
> 
> *One borrowed trade reading later*
> ...


I still love 'em all  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> I still love 'em all .


I was more just bringing up the point that, almost without fail, Cass detractors will be people who don't actually know the first thing about her, but once they get their hands on her book, they fall in love.

----------


## millernumber1

> I was more just bringing up the point that, almost without fail, Cass detractors will be people who don't actually know the first thing about her, but once they get their hands on her book, they fall in love.


I'm really glad that her best trades are available in such gorgeous reprints! And DC has been really good about not letting their reprints fall out of print, so this time, we'll likely have Cass references and gifts for years go come! (And Steph, of course  :Smile:  )

----------


## Frontier

> I was more just bringing up the point that, almost without fail, Cass detractors will be people who don't actually know the first thing about her, but once they get their hands on her book, they fall in love.


Well, I'm kind of just used to people criticizing characters I like to not really seem to "get" them, either through misinformation, ignorance, or a different reading of the character. 

But such is fandom.

----------


## TheCape

I usually give a fair chance to everything and judge fairly afterwards, althougth i have never come to dislike any recomendation, there are characthers that i just can't get into, for a lack of interest, regardless of the quality, like Firestorm.

----------


## Assam

> I'm really glad that her best trades are available in such gorgeous reprints! And DC has been really good about not letting their reprints fall out of print, so this time, we'll likely have Cass references and gifts for years go come! (And Steph, of course  )


Yeah, much as I still hope for the rest to be collected, just having Puckett's run collected so nicely and conveniently is great. (I still really want to know which clever bloke at DC made sure her first fat trade came out on her birthday) I didn't ever pick up Steph's trade, and sorry if you've told me already, but did they give her  reprints the same gorgeous treatment they gave Cass? 




> Well, I'm kind of just used to people criticizing characters I like to not really seem to "get" them, either through misinformation, ignorance, or a different reading of the character. 
> 
> But such is fandom.


Yeah, it's unfortunate and I'm definitely  with you there.

----------


## Assam

> there are characthers that i just can't get into, for a lack of interest, regardless of the quality, like Firestorm.


Firestorm is probably the most vanilla hero in DC for me. Doesn't matter which version, which run (I've tried several), nothing can make me care about them one way or the other. The closest I've come is being super pissed over the respective Firestorm's treatments in Identity Crisis and Blackest Night.

----------


## Frontier

I love each Firestorm (The Heat is On)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, much as I still hope for the rest to be collected, just having Puckett's run collected so nicely and conveniently is great. (I still really want to know which clever bloke at DC made sure her first fat trade came out on her birthday) I didn't ever pick up Steph's trade, and sorry if you've told me already, but did they give her  reprints the same gorgeous treatment they gave Cass?


I bought Steph's trade digitally, since I literally JUST bought the old trades this year and last year (in addition to all the crossovers and single issues I could think of, though not all of them, since some of them were pretty silly). Looking at Steph's new trade in the story, it's my impression that it's not quite as high quality as Cass's. It seems thinner, and the cover doesn't feel quite as heavy (high quality and glossy) to me, but that's impressionistic from several weeks ago. I'd have to check them out at the store side by side again to be sure.

That being said, it's definitely better than poor Azrael got.  :Frown:  And I appreciate that 1) We're getting it all nicely packaged, and 2) They're promising to include the Road Home issue, which is really crucial to Steph's arc.

----------


## TheCape

> That being said, it's definitely better than poor Azrael got.**And I appreciate that 1) We're getting it all nicely packaged, and 2) They're promising to include the Road Home issue, which is really crucial to Steph's arc.


Poor JPV, he is the one to most likely fall into obscurity with time, pretty unfair after a 100 solo, is Dennis O'Neil still writting, maybe he can save him.

----------


## millernumber1

> Poor JPV, he is the one to most likely fall into obscurity with time, pretty unfair after a 100 solo, is Dennis O'Neil still writting, maybe he can save him.


He is writing every now and then, but I doubt he's interested in doing anything more than a one shot or maybe a four issue arc.

----------


## Assam

> That being said, it's definitely better than poor Azrael got.


Yeah, Jean-Paul definitely got the short end of the stick. 




> 1) We're getting it all nicely packaged, and 2) They're promising to include the Road Home issue, which is really crucial to Steph's arc.


Oh, the Road Home issue. On the one hand great for Steph's character and the slap is truly glorious, on the other hand it contains a dig at Cass fans like Inc. and BoP had. (As Rena put it, that issue made it canon that by that point, Alfred was the only who still canonically gave a crap about Cass. :Frown: ) 

(I honestly, HONESTLY wish I could talk more positively about Steph's book more often because there is a lot of it I love, but just so much is problematic there.)

----------


## TheCape

> He is writing every now and then, but I doubt he's interested in doing anything more than a one shot or maybe a four issue arc


You are rigth, i think that he actually did some one shots about him at some point of the DickBats era.

----------


## Assam

> Poor JPV, he is the one to most likely fall into obscurity with time, pretty unfair after a 100 solo, is Dennis O'Neil still writting, maybe he can save him.


While I don't think JPV is as secure as the Robins and Batgirls (Really, if Tynion can just protect Cass and Steph until the editorial regime changes, I think they're in the clear for good) or even Kate or Helena, I'd say he still he's less likely to become obscure and disappear again than the Nu52 additions. 

Also, DC sadly doesn't see importance in long running solos. 

Cass's 73, Bart Allen's 89, Kon-El's 100, and Tim's almost 200 saying hi to that.

----------


## millernumber1

> While I don't think JPV is as secure as the Robins and Batgirls (Really, if Tynion can just protect Cass and Steph until the editorial regime changes, I think they're in the clear for good) or even Kate or Helena, I'd say he still he's less likely to become obscure and disappear again than the Nu52 additions. 
> 
> Also, DC sadly doesn't see importance in long running solos. 
> 
> Cass's 73, Bart Allen's 89, Kon-El's 100, and Tim's literal hundreds saying hi to that.


I would agree that JPV seems like he's here at least as a supporting character for a good long chunk, and hooray for that!

I personally think that the ranking of DC's Batfamily girls is as follows:

Babs (RAGE)
Harley Quinn
Catwoman

about 100 places filled with empty space (to match the empty space in editorial's head)

Kate

about 20 empty spots

Helena
Cass
Steph

Reasons: Babs obviously is their fave. We can go into reasons for this, but I think we all know that it's because "iconic."

Harley is actually selling better than Babs, but she's so divorced from the Batfamily I'm not sure if she doesn't belong with Dinah in her own category. But she doesn't have "Bat" in her name, and since Connor and Palmiotti are leaving, I'm pretty sure she's going to drop significantly, though I don't know if she'll stabilize below Babs or not.

Selina is clearly super important to King and the main book (which is why I think she doesn't have a solo, despite sustaining a solo all the way through the n52). Since she's an antihero, I think she's probably lower in priority than Babs, but we'll have to see where she falls out during King's run.

The 100 places is also obvious. Because reasons. 

Kate, obviously, got her own solo. And she's been a huge PR character for DC over the past decade, so I think she's definitely a priority for them. Reason I'm putting her below the 100 places of stupidity is because I don't think the series is getting the buzz or push that indicates it's really a priority for DC. That's obviously impressionistic, but just the way I'm reading things.

20 more places of stupidity.

Helena is probably going to drop below Cass and Steph once Seeley's off Nightwing. She's only up there because she's pretty close to a main character in two books right now, one of which is a really solid seller (Nightwing).

I think Cass is has a bit of an edge for DC right now because she's actually regularly expected to show up in Tec every two weeks. She's also gotten a bit more buzz at recent cons as far as I can tell in panels. Good on you, Cass fans.

And, of course, Steph. Now, the reason I'm not despairing, is because Tynion clearly has plans for Steph. But I think, much as I will defend it to the death, the current storyline for Steph as an outsider to the team really hurts her in the fandom, because a big chunk of fans are mad at her, another chunk is mad at Tynion, and another chunk is mad that they're not seeing her regularly (that one would be me).

----------


## Frontier

I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.


That's basically what I said, but punchier.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> That's basically what I said, but punchier.


I try my best  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> I would agree that JPV seems like he's here at least as a supporting character for a good long chunk, and hooray for that!


Hooray indeed. He'll most likely never have a solo again, but it's nice to just to have him around. (Now if only Tynion would give Cass her first friend back) 




> I personally think that the ranking of DC's Batfamily girls is as follows:
> 
> Babs (RAGE)
> Harley Quinn
> Catwoman
> 
> about 100 places filled with empty space (to match the empty space in editorial's head)
> 
> Kate
> ...


I think your rankings are pretty spot on from that perspective, although I'd throw in Kate with the top group, but two things I'd like to add: 

First, I think part of the reason Cass gets more buzz at cons is because there's more specific things we want for Cass. Just look at all the things that we listed off wanting to see during League of Shadows and there's a clear direction going forward we'd like for her. With Steph, it's a bit trickier to ask for things since she doesn't have anything as BIG as the adoption to bring back, she's in her "permanent" role already, her relationship with Babs wasn't as deep as Cass's, etc. and so while we obviously want to see more stories with her, there's far fewer things to really get hyped about regarding potential status quo changes. 

Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes: 

Babs
Harley
Kate 
Catwoman 
Steph 
Helena 
Cass

Steph's higher placement being because of getting that spot on YJ.

----------


## Assam

> I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.


I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.

----------


## Aahz

> Kate, obviously, got her own solo. And she's been a huge PR character for DC over the past decade, so I think she's definitely a priority for them. Reason I'm putting her below the 100 places of stupidity is because I don't think the series is getting the buzz or push that indicates it's really a priority for DC. That's obviously impressionistic, but just the way I'm reading things.


At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.

----------


## Frontier

> Hooray indeed. He'll most likely never have a solo again, but it's nice to just to have him around. (Now if only Tynion would give Cass her first friend back)


You never know sometimes  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes: 
> 
> Babs
> Harley
> Kate 
> Catwoman 
> Steph 
> Helena 
> Cass
> ...


If we're talking overall treatment, I would put Catwoman a little above or even with Kate. 



> I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.


It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more  :Smile: .

Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.

----------


## millernumber1

> I think your rankings are pretty spot on from that perspective, although I'd throw in Kate with the top group, but two things I'd like to add: 
> 
> First, I think part of the reason Cass gets more buzz at cons is because there's more specific things we want for Cass. Just look at all the things that we listed off wanting to see during League of Shadows and there's a clear direction going forward we'd like for her. With Steph, it's a bit trickier to ask for things since she doesn't have anything as BIG as the adoption to bring back, she's in her "permanent" role already, her relationship with Babs wasn't as deep as Cass's, etc. and so while we obviously want to see more stories with her, there's far fewer things to really get hyped about regarding potential status quo changes. 
> 
> Second, while that may be how DC sees things, it's not how I'd say their overall treatment went this year. I'd say that goes: 
> 
> Babs
> Harley
> Kate 
> ...


Ah, I was only really thinking of the comics. But the YJ spot does make sense in terms of boosting Steph up.

It's possible Kate is on the top tier, but I feel like that push has failed to really break her into the range DC would like to see (she's selling below Babs despite being a much newer series, and neither of them are selling in the Nightwing range of 30,000 per issue, which I would think is the range expected for a really strong mid-level character). DC's top-selling female solo books is, of course, Wonder Woman, at 40,000, and Tec is at 50,000. I would really love ONE of DC's Bat-female family members to consistently hit 30,000 like Nightwing, but I haven't seen it happen in a really long time.

It's true that Steph fans have gotten most of what we can realistically ask for - Steph back, her relationship with Tim restored. The things we want that are still unmet are either sort of happening (relationship with Cass - but that needs a MASSIVE boost), or almost certainly not going to happen (her time as Robin and Batgirl acknowledged, even if they refuse to put her back in one of those roles). The most I think I would ask for, other than her own plotline (which she does have) is that she 1) appear in other titles (which I asked King to do, but he seemed to view Steph as off limits) and 2) a League of Batgirls books, which I think should be a no-brainer, since their current Batgirl strategy isn't really doing them any favors, but NOPE.




> I liked the Sirens as a kid, but over the years as I've grown and they've become overexposed, I've grown to dislike one of them, have irritation toward another, and be indifferent toward the third.


I don't mind the sirens per se, but I do think Harley definitely sucks all the air out of the room. And I can't blame DC for that - the sales for the books are ridiculously high, and it would be dumb of them to ignore that (though overexposing her as a result is probably not their best move). As for Poison Ivy...well...yeah.




> At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.


Maybe this is bad, but I think Epting on art was a pretty huge name, and it didn't seem to really "move the needle," (ugh, I hate playing into that narrative, especially since unlike a lot of Kate's fans, I think Epting's art was the strongest part of the first arc).




> It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more .
> 
> Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.


I didn't grow up with the animated series, which I think probably explains why I have my specific nostalgia points and gaps. Harley Quinn is definitely one of them.

----------


## DamianBane

> I think overall, both in comics and out, DC's priority is Batgirl (Barbara), the Sirens, and then everybody else.


I agree, this seems to be the case with DC

----------


## millernumber1

> I agree, this seems to be the case with DC


Which is dumb, because I think it's not doing much more than surviving. I want the girls, ALL  of them, including Babs, but especially my faves Steph and Cass, to thrive! I want them to be as important as Robin and Nightwing (maybe too ambitious, but that's what I want).

----------


## Frontier

> I don't mind the sirens per se, but I do think Harley definitely sucks all the air out of the room. And I can't blame DC for that - the sales for the books are ridiculously high, and it would be dumb of them to ignore that (though overexposing her as a result is probably not their best move). As for Poison Ivy...well...yeah.


Harley is definitely an attention-stealer or someone who hogs the spotlight, but that's pretty much by design (and something she shares with her erstwhile lover). 




> Maybe this is bad, but I think Epting on art was a pretty huge name, and it didn't seem to really "move the needle," (ugh, I hate playing into that narrative, especially since unlike a lot of Kate's fans, I think Epting's art was the strongest part of the first arc).


I think Epting is a fairly big name in comics, but not the kind of artist who drives sales up. 




> Which is dumb, because I think it's not doing much more than surviving. I want the girls, ALL  of them, including Babs, but especially my faves Steph and Cass, to thrive! I want them to be as important as Robin and Nightwing (maybe too ambitious, but that's what I want).


I think, ideally, DC should be pushing and making all the ladies in the Batfamily as big, major, and significant and not downplay some for others. Especially considering the different kinds of audiences and stories they can appeal too.

At the same time, the major push they've given characters like Babs and the Sirens primarily has worked demonstrably to their favor. As far as general audiences are concerned I think Batgirl is as important as Robin and Nightwing.

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## sakuyamons

> It's the complete opposite for me. I've grown to love and appreciate each one of them more and more .
> 
> Of course, as a kid I loved them in B:TAS and beyond so all my subsequent reading of them in the comics just bolstered that.


I like the three of them too  :Big Grin:  Gotham City Sirens was also one of the first comics I read, I even have one trade of it signed. I'd be on board with a Sirens book written properly, because I like the concept of nu52 Harley in the sense she's free from Joker, but I don't like the way Palmiotti turned her into DC's deadpool. I liked Cycle of Life and Death and I wish I got something Ivy-related soon, and Selina is Selina  :Stick Out Tongue:  or, how King's Batman likes to say: Cat is Cat.

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## Assam

> At least in rebirth she got probably the most push of all the female characters, the lack of buzz is probably due to the not terribly exciting first arc of her series and the lack of a really big name creative team on the book.


And I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me. 




> You never know sometimes .


Hey, I woudln't complain...I mean I would because it would be someone other than Cass getting a book, but I still love JPV and I'd read it. 




> If we're talking overall treatment, I would put Catwoman a little above or even with Kate.


I put Kate above because she got a solo, is still the most pushed 'Tec team member and getting merch, but if you factor in Gotham by Gaslight, I guess adding that on to King's run equals them out. 




> It's possible Kate is on the top tier, but I feel like that push has failed to really break her into the range DC would like to see (she's selling below Babs despite being a much newer series, and neither of them are selling in the Nightwing range of 30,000 per issue, which I would think is the range expected for a really strong mid-level character).


Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel. 




> DC's top-selling female solo books is, of course, Wonder Woman, at 40,000, and Tec is at 50,000. I would really love ONE of DC's Bat-female family members to consistently hit 30,000 like Nightwing, but I haven't seen it happen in a really long time.


Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside. 

I don't know if Cass could still regularly pull over 30,000, but I do confidently believe she could outsell all the currently failing Bat books. 





> It's true that Steph fans have gotten most of what we can realistically ask for - Steph back, her relationship with Tim restored. The things we want that are still unmet are either sort of happening (relationship with Cass - but that needs a MASSIVE boost)


Cass's next arc is about her relationship with Bruce, hopefully Steph's next arc will be about her relationship with Cass. Might actually be interesting for her to have the focus there. While I'd obviously prefer it to be on Cass, most of their Pre-FP relationship was developed on Cass's "turf." Could be neat to see that spun around. 





> 2) a League of Batgirls books, which I think should be a no-brainer, since their current Batgirl strategy isn't really doing them any favors, but NOPE.


See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together. 




> I agree, this seems to be the case with DC


2017 really does present how sad it is to be a Cass fan in some ways. It's almost without question the best overall year she's had since 2005 (12 years ago!) and yet she was still treated significantly worse than the Robins, the other Batgirls, the Sirens, Kate, Helena, Terry and Duke.

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## Frontier

> I put Kate above because she got a solo, is still the most pushed 'Tec team member and getting merch, but if you factor in Gotham by Gaslight, I guess adding that on to King's run equals them out.


At the same time Selina is in games (_Injustice II_, _The Telltale Series_), finally got some big focus in _DC Super Hero Girls_, is in a live-action TV show (_Gotham_) and is going to appear in _Gotham by Gaslight_ next year. 

Add the fact that she's the co-star of the current flagship book of DC comics, by sales alone, and I'd say that puts her a little above Kate (not that I think it should be a contest). 




> Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.


She hasn't been immediately relaunched yet, so I think that saves her from being the Bat-Captain Marvel  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside.


I think Babs needs a revamp, but I also think she'd probably need something else (like a bigger named writer) to draw more interest back to her book.  




> I don't know if Cass could still regularly pull over 30,000, but I do confidently believe she could outsell all the currently failing Bat books.


If DC handled it right? I have no doubt  :Smile: .




> See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together.


It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be _just_ right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.

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## Assam

> It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be _just_ right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.


Hence the several maybes.  :Stick Out Tongue:   It would need to be someone who has equal respect for all three Batgirls, truly loving them all, AND has the skill as a writer to make the book legitimately good. PLUS, they'd have to be able to turn around Oracle fans who don't accept Babsgirl at all like myself, win over the idiotic "OnetrueBatgirlers" AND do justice to the prevoius relationships these characters have shared. 

Basically, I'm not sure there's such a writer in the industry right now.

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## millernumber1

> Harley is definitely an attention-stealer or someone who hogs the spotlight, but that's pretty much by design (and something she shares with her erstwhile lover). 
> 
> I think Epting is a fairly big name in comics, but not the kind of artist who drives sales up. 
> 
> I think, ideally, DC should be pushing and making all the ladies in the Batfamily as big, major, and significant and not downplay some for others. Especially considering the different kinds of audiences and stories they can appeal too.
> 
> At the same time, the major push they've given characters like Babs and the Sirens primarily has worked demonstrably to their favor. As far as general audiences are concerned I think Batgirl is as important as Robin and Nightwing.


Ah, but which lover?  :Wink: 

Interesting - do you think there is an artist who could drive sales up specifically for one of the Batgirls/women (including Steph and Cass, of course)? Because Rafael Albuquerque didn't seem to really make much of an impact for Batgirl, either.

Completely agree that the zero sum game DC is playing with the three Batgirls is really obnoxious. Especially since I think a Batgirls team book with Steph, Cass, and Babs, if given a solid writer (like Tynion or Seeley, NOT someone like Sebela, Larson, the Bensons, Orlando, or Bennet) could really ramp up love for all three. (My personal pick would probably be someone like Christopher Priest, but he's got Justice League now, so all the best to him!)

I really disagree that general audiences think Batgirl is as important. At least as far as sales and appearances in other titles go. (Which makes it all the more idiotic that DC is obsessed with Babs being the One and Only since they refuse to even push her that effectively.)




> Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel. 
> 
> Cass and Nu52Babs both regularly sold over 30,000 (at their best, both did well over that), but given how far Babs has fallen, her ongoing currently having the lowest sales of any Batgirl ongoing and not too far above what the Beechen Cass mini ended at, I think it's safe to say Babs's prior success was only due to the overall inflated sales of the Nu52, Simone's name, and then the initial draw of Burnside. Contrary to what some think, I don't think making Babs more serious would raise her sales at all, but simply just lose her even more readers, the ones who REALLY like Burnside. 
> 
> See, I'm not sure Cass on her own could still regularly pull 30K, but I think this definitely could. And if done right, maybe, just MAYBE, the completely shattered base that is the Batgirl fandom could start being elmers glued back together.


I think DC putting her on the team as leader and beefing up her relationship with Bruce was the best thing they could have done for Kate. Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing), I really don't see the point of it other than "Tec was successful, and we can't capitalize on Tim because he's "dead," so let's go with the next most likely to sell and get PR too."  I mean, if it had been the follow up to This Blood is Thick that I so desperately still want, I'd say something different. THAT book I might even add to my pull list. (Excellent comparison to Captain Marvel, BTW.)

I wish DC would just shunt Larson off on Babs for a prestige title like Supergirl Being Super was, since that's CLEARLY what she actually wants to do, and put a big or even medium sized veteran name on Babs. Tie her back into the Batfamily. The Burnside audience is not big enough to justify what they're doing. That's not to say "Dark and Gritty," but make her a family member, and not DC Super Hero Girls: But For Teens. (Not a knock of DCSHG - I'm thrilled it's getting the kids into comics. But it's not the kind of thing with a large crossover age appeal, I think.)

I don't know about Cass selling 30,000, but I think there's a chance that Babs, Cass, and Steph together could - again, given a writer with a good rep and a story to tell. But why not give a real try (and not just throw it to "writer who is available.")

Lastly, your summary of being a Cass fan also reminds me why her fanbase gives more buzz - because they've had to wait longer. Steph fans had Batgirl 6 years ago, so there's that.




> She hasn't been immediately relaunched yet, so I think that saves her from being the Bat-Captain Marvel .
> 
> I think Babs needs a revamp, but I also think she'd probably need something else (like a bigger named writer) to draw more interest back to her book.  
> 
> It would depend a lot on the writing and handling of it, in my opinion, because it would need to be _just_ right for all the different Batgirls fans to accept it and enjoy it.


I think DC will give Batwoman 18 issues, and if nothing changes, either relaunch or new creative team. Or both!

Completely agree that Babs (and ALL the girls) needs a writer who can draw people because of the writer, not just the character.

It is true that based on all the fighting that happens in Robin team-ups, the way a Batgirl team-up book would go would be really tricky. Also, the way Steph and Cass's threads have handled Tec shows that delicacy. But I think it would be worth a try. Certainly better than just accepting the way things are now.

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## Frontier

> Ah, but which lover?


Well, I thought I was pretty clear, but fair point  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> Interesting - do you think there is an artist who could drive sales up specifically for one of the Batgirls/women (including Steph and Cass, of course)? Because Rafael Albuquerque didn't seem to really make much of an impact for Batgirl, either.


I think comic companies definitely put certain artists on titles (like Ivan Reis, Steve McNiven, Jim Cheung, etc.) to give the title more attention or "prestiege" as it were if chances are the character or writer are not likely to do that. 




> Completely agree that the zero sum game DC is playing with the three Batgirls is really obnoxious. Especially since I think a Batgirls team book with Steph, Cass, and Babs, if given a solid writer (like Tynion or Seeley, NOT someone like Sebela, Larson, the Bensons, Orlando, or Bennet) could really ramp up love for all three. (My personal pick would probably be someone like Christopher Priest, but he's got Justice League now, so all the best to him!)


I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head. 



> I really disagree that general audiences think Batgirl is as important. At least as far as sales and appearances in other titles go. (Which makes it all the more idiotic that DC is obsessed with Babs being the One and Only since they refuse to even push her that effectively.)


By general audience, I meant outside comics, since Batgirl is pretty much the only major Batfamily member who consistently appears in other media alongside Robin and/or Nightwing.

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## Assam

> I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head.


While Priest would definitely have the skill and he's versatile enough that he theoretically COULD write them, with the situation as it is, it would need someone who could/would do all of what I said above, and we've got no idea what Priest's thoughts on the Batgirls are. 

Also, side-note, but we were talking about who should count as Tim's creators in his thread, and I wonder if Rucka should count for Cass considering he, you know, _named_ her.

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## Aahz

> I think DC putting her on the team as leader and beefing up her relationship with Bruce was the best thing they could have done for Kate. Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing), I really don't see the point of it other than "Tec was successful, and we can't capitalize on Tim because he's "dead," so let's go with the next most likely to sell and get PR too."  I mean, if it had been the follow up to This Blood is Thick that I so desperately still want, I'd say something different. THAT book I might even add to my pull list. (Excellent comparison to Captain Marvel, BTW.)


A bigger writer on the book might have helped ...

And I'm still wondering how they handle her leadership role once we get a story with the whole Batfamily in it.

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## SneakyLookingSort

Don't know if I would like the idea of Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl, Cass needs something similar and personal.

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## Frontier

> Don't know if I would like the idea of *Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls*. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl.


If this were a cartoon, I would totally watch it  :Big Grin: .

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## Caivu

> Since the current solo is hell bent on ignoring all of the groundwork from Rucka, Williams, and Blackman (at least, that's how it feels, I can see hints that it's coming together, but so far, it's been incredibly disappointing)


It's doing nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.  :Confused: 




> I think DC will give Batwoman 18 issues, and if nothing changes, either relaunch or new creative team. Or both!


I say at least 24, maybe even 30. If we go by the Blue Beetle Index, it's still well ahead of where BB was at the same issue #, and that's ignoring that I'm reasonably sure DC cares more about Batwoman as a property than Blue Beetle (even if they could market it much better).




> Kate's push definitely isn't working, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been happening in regards to her treatment. Still, despite giving her what they can, she isn't selling and I hope DC sees that and tries something else rather than making her Bat-Captain Marvel.


You don't think that maybe the fact that she's also in Detective has something to do with this? Also don't forget that it's been doing pretty consistently well digitally, and the trade has yet to come out.

Besides, as much as I'd like to see her in the 30-40k range, I care much more about whether her story is good, and so far that's been the case.

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## millernumber1

> I think comic companies definitely put certain artists on titles (like Ivan Reis, Steve McNiven, Jim Cheung, etc.) to give the title more attention or "prestiege" as it were if chances are the character or writer are not likely to do that. 
> 
> I doubt a book like that would even be on Priest's wavelength, though for some reason I can't get Greg Rucka out of my head. 
> 
> By general audience, I meant outside comics, since Batgirl is pretty much the only major Batfamily member who consistently appears in other media alongside Robin and/or Nightwing.


Interesting. People always talk about Reis like he's an artist who impacts sales, but maybe I just don't read the right books. He's never been on my list before of artists to weigh in purchasing decisions. But then again, the artists who do that for me are people like Marcus To and Dustin Nguyen, so what do I know.  :Smile: 

Agree that Priest probably doesn't have a super strong interest in it - but he does such a great job with Ravager and the Dark Titans in Deathstroke I would love to see what he does with it. Rucka has the name clout and skill to do it, but I don't think he's actually that interested in any of the Batgirls, even though he did write a lot of Cass early in NML. Besides, he's much more likely to want to do Kate than any of the others, understandably.




> While Priest would definitely have the skill and he's versatile enough that he theoretically COULD write them, with the situation as it is, it would need someone who could/would do all of what I said above, and we've got no idea what Priest's thoughts on the Batgirls are. 
> 
> Also, side-note, but we were talking about who should count as Tim's creators in his thread, and I wonder if Rucka should count for Cass considering he, you know, _named_ her.


Though I can understand the desires of wanting someone to walk the balance for the three, I think the biggest issue is wanting someone who can tell a really great story or series of stories about the three girls. That's what's really going to put them back on the  map for wider fandom, rather than just pleasing their current fanbases.




> Don't know if I would like the idea of Charlie's Batgirls/Powerpuff Batgirls/Totally Batgirls. All three of them in the same in the book, sure, but I would prefer them using different codenames. I think a new branch of gotham based heroes would be a much more fresh take than just adding more Bats in the already huge roster. Besides Spoiler is way cooler identity than Batgirl, Cass needs something similar and personal.


Well, I would love all three of them as Batgirl, because they have all been Batgirl, but I'd be okay with Batgirl, Spoiler, and SOMETHING BETTER THAN ORPHAN.  :Smile: 




> If this were a cartoon, I would totally watch it .


Yes!




> It's doing nothing of the sort. Quite the opposite.
> 
> I say at least 24, maybe even 30. If we go by the Blue Beetle Index, it's still well ahead of where BB was at the same issue #, and that's ignoring that I'm reasonably sure DC cares more about Batwoman as a property than Blue Beetle (even if they could market it much better).


I think you're likely right that Batwoman has more brand weight than Blue Beetle. So my 18 issue prediction may be a bit short. But we'll have to see. The glut of Batfamily titles also plays into my consideration.

As for the other point, we've already hashed it out in Kate's thread. I respect your love for the series, but I don't think either of us will change the other's mind about it.

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## Assam

> Agree that Priest probably doesn't have a super strong interest in it - but he does such a great job with Ravager and the Dark Titans in Deathstroke I would love to see what he does with it. Rucka has the name clout and skill to do it, but I don't think he's actually that interested in any of the Batgirls, even though he did write a lot of Cass early in NML. Besides, he's much more likely to want to do Kate than any of the others, understandably.


I honestly kinda wish Rucka was interested. I REALLY like how he wrote Cass in the NML novelization. 




> Though I can understand the desires of wanting someone to walk the balance for the three, I think the biggest issue is wanting someone who can tell a really great story or series of stories about the three girls. That's what's really going to put them back on the  map for wider fandom, rather than just pleasing their current fanbases.


True...





> Well, I would love all three of them as Batgirl, because they have all been Batgirl, but I'd be okay with Batgirl, Spoiler, and* SOMETHING BETTER THAN ORPHAN*.


Spring, friendo. For real this time. I hope.

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## millernumber1

> I honestly kinda wish Rucka was interested. I REALLY like how he wrote Cass in the NML novelization. 
> 
> Spring, friendo. For real this time. I hope.


I really like most of what Rucka writes, which is why I wish he'd come back. But he's said pretty much explicitly that he's really only interested in doing Diana, Kate, Renee, and maybe Helena for DC at this point. He's not interested in being pitched something (as far as I can tell).

Would read a Rucka title for ANY or all of the Batgirls? YES. So much yes. But I just don't think it's worth getting excited about, because I don't think it will ever happen. (Honestly, same with Priest.)

And from your keyboard to Tynion's ears. Though I know you've already told him in person, and I've heard many others say it as well (in the recent Google panel with Tynion, King, Miller, Patrick, and Murphy).

----------


## Aahz

> You don't think that maybe the fact that she's also in Detective has something to do with this? Also don't forget that it's been doing pretty consistently well digitally, and the trade has yet to come out.


At least in the comixology bestseller list the book was in the last time also not a really high postion, and digital sales make up anyway a smaller fraction of the sales than floppies and trades.

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## Caivu

> At least in the comixology bestseller list the book was in the last time also not a really high postion, and digital sales make up anyway a smaller fraction of the sales than floppies and trades.


Uh, Top 25 isn't a high position? Because every single issue so far has reached at least that in each of Comixology's markets. That's not at all bad.

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## Aahz

> Uh, Top 25 isn't a high position? Because every single issue so far has reached at least that in each of Comixology's markets. That's not at all bad.


But it is a weekly list, not a monthly, so if you look at all 4 weeks of the month combined, Batwoman would probably end somewhere low in the top 100, so roughly where the book is in physical sales.
for the digital sales to really be big factor, it would have probably to get in the top 5 or at least top 10.

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## Caivu

> But it is a weekly list, not a monthly, so if you look at all 4 weeks of the month combined, Batwoman would probably end somewhere low in the top 100, so roughly where the book is in physical sales.
> for the digital sales to really be big factor, it would have probably to get in the top 5 or at least top 10.


How does that matter at all? _Every_ title gets shifted down significantly by the next week (earlier if Comixology decides to have a sale).

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## Aahz

> How does that matter at all? _Every_ title gets shifted down significantly by the next week (earlier if Comixology decides to have a sale).


Because it means that 25th in the comixology list is not comparable with 25th in the comichron list.

Just look where the Bat books in this weeks are.

TEC is at the 2nd place
RHatO is at the 15th place
BaBoP is at the 27th place

Batman is also typical as least as high as TEC, Nightwing and Super Sons are usally in the Top 10 and  is iirc Batgirl usually in the Top 20.

Which indicates for me that Batwoman is not really doing better digitally than in print.

----------


## Caivu

> Because it means that 25th in the comixology list is not comparable with 25th in the comichron list.


I never said or even implied that it was.

----------


## Assam

Idea: All of Tom King's irritating repetition has actually been foreshadowing. Cass is going to bond with both Bruce AND Selina, and upon them adopting her, she becomes: BATCAT!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Idea: All of Tom King's irritating repetition has actually been foreshadowing. Cass is going to bond with both Bruce AND Selina, and upon them adopting her, she becomes: BATCAT!


CATBAT!

(I actually like the reptition.  :Smile:  )

----------


## Katana500

I never really thought about Cass and Selina. But if Bruce is going to adopt her then it would be nice to see what Selina thinks  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Cass definitely wins the cute contest for this one. 

By KaylaBeeMarie: 

kaylabeemarie.jpg

----------


## sakuyamons

> I never really thought about Cass and Selina. But if Bruce is going to adopt her then it would be nice to see what Selina thinks .


I think she’d be okay with all of Bruce’s children, and who knows, maybe Cass would like one of her cats  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

> I never really thought about Cass and Selina. But if Bruce is going to adopt her then it would be nice to see what Selina thinks .


Well, Cass already doesn't like her, so...

----------


## sakuyamons

> Well, Cass already doesn't like her, so...


Does Cass even know Selina in the current timeline? I mean, she doesn’t even know Barbara.

----------


## Caivu

> Does Cass even know Selina in the current timeline? I mean, she doesn’t even know Barbara.


No, but it doesn't seem to matter, based on BBoP #15.

----------


## Assam

> I think she’d be okay with all of Bruce’s children, and who knows, maybe Cass would like one of her cats


Cass is most definitely an animal lover.  :Smile: 




> No, but it doesn't seem to matter, based on BBoP #15.


That issue was shite and, unless we actually DO get some bonding between Cass and Babs (A Cass and Diana moment would be excellent as well), I hope its not paid much attention to canon wise. 

@Sakuyamons, Cass and Selina actually did have one fun adventure together Pre- FP in Batman: Gotham City Secret Files, which is a much better written and more in character first meeting. (Naturally of course as it's written by Puckett and Peterson) Selina sees Cass doing her thing, introduces herself and complements her, Selina trying to get her to help with something, believing that Cass thinks she's just a hero she hasn't met. The two take on a bunch of baddies and ultimately foil a scheme of the Penguin's. They part on good terms, Selina thinking to herself that she successfully conned Cass and how it would have been so much fun if Batman had found out about this...only for the last scenes to make it clear that Cass knew what was up all along, and just went along with it because A) They were still doing good work and B) She liked the company.

It also gives us this wonderful panel:

wag.jpg

----------


## Frontier

I did not know about this team-up. Now I really want to read it  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> I did not know about this team-up. Now I really want to read it .


It's a really fun issue so I hope you enjoy; you can get it cheap on ebay.  :Smile: 

Any other characters you're not sure if she's teamed up with?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

Fun Fact: Apparently Ryan Potter is a Cass fan and would love it if she showed up on Titans. 

Man this guy is aweomse.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

Where did you learn that out?

----------


## Assam

> Where did you learn that out?


Apparently he talked about it yesterday on Instagram live.

----------


## RedBird

andreavasquezart
_'we are cassandra cain stans first and people second'_

----------


## Assam

> we are cassandra cain stans first and people second


Accurate. Very accurate. 

Also, nice pieces, love the first two, but fanart/fiction where Cass is reading and not clearly struggling makes me cringe.

----------


## RedBird

> Accurate. Very accurate. 
> 
> Also, nice pieces, love the first two, but fanart/fiction where Cass is reading and not clearly struggling makes me cringe.


Meh, could be a picture book :P

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Assam

https://www.reddit.com/r/cosplay/com...an_expo_today/

I love how there seem to be more people who cosplay Cass using TSBranch's redeisgn than the Orphan suit.  :Big Grin: 

Also, don't know how we all missed this, but holy f**k this art is haunting: 

http://runtmonk.**********.com/projects/l4gA5

----------


## Assam

Okay, I admit it, I hate kate.jpg

Because _of course_ Kate is the only 'Tec member to appear on this BoP variant.  :Mad:

----------


## Frontier

> Okay, I admit it, I hate kate.jpg
> 
> Because _of course_ Kate is the only 'Tec member to appear on this BoP variant.


That is a really lovely variant though  :Big Grin: .

----------


## millernumber1

The Birds of Prey variants have been pretty solid. I'm always torn between the regular and variant covers when I pick up my pull.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> That is a really lovely variant though .


Doesn't stop my dislike of Kate from getting ever closer to my level of hatred for Babsgirl and Sasha Bordeaux :Stick Out Tongue:  Right now she's on the same level I put Talon and Gotham Girl.

THIS is still probably my favorite variant of Rebirth:

11.jpg

I do wonder what Luen-Yang writing Cass would be like.

----------


## millernumber1

> THIS is still probably my favorite variant of Rebirth:
> 
> 11.jpg
> 
> I do wonder what Luen-Yang writing Cass would be like.


I'm really curious to know if Luen-Yang will ever clarify his statements about Cass several years ago.

----------


## Frontier

> Doesn't stop my dislike of Kate from getting ever closer to my level of hatred for Babsgirl and Sasha Bordeaux Right now she's on the same level I put Talon and Gotham Girl.


Ah, I love all of them (except Talon)  :Smile: .




> THIS is still probably my favorite variant of Rebirth:
> 
> 11.jpg
> 
> I do wonder what Luen-Yang writing Cass would be like.


That was a pretty awesome variant.




> I'm really curious to know if Luen-Yang will ever clarify his statements about Cass several years ago.


Do you mind elaborating? I think this is the first time I've heard of him commenting on Cass.

----------


## TheCape

I must be a broken record with you at this point :Stick Out Tongue: , but i will ask, why do you hate Sasha Bordeaux?, i'm personally indifferent toward her (althought, i never ended Murder/Fugitive, so maybe that has something to do).

----------


## Caivu

> Doesn't stop my dislike of Kate from getting ever closer to my level of hatred for Babsgirl and Sasha Bordeaux Right now she's on the same level I put Talon and Gotham Girl.


Why do you base your opinions on stuff outside the text? It has pretty much no bearing on anything.

----------


## Assam

> I must be a broken record with you at this point, but i will ask, why do you hate Sasha Bordeaux?


She participated in the murder of Ted Kord.

----------


## Frontier

> I must be a broken record with you at this point, but i will ask, why do you hate Sasha Bordeaux?, i'm personally indifferent toward her (althought, i never ended Murder/Fugitive, so maybe that has something to do).


She's like the poster girl for why it sucks to fall in love with Bruce Wayne  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> She participated in the murder of Ted Kord.


Haha, I know she did all that shady stuff (she also shot Lois Lane), but I still love her.  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Haha, I know she did all that shady stuff (she also shot Lois Lane), but I still love her.


I guess I should really read Rucka's _Checkmate_ at some point  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> Why do you base your opinions on stuff outside the text? It has pretty much no bearing on anything.


I don't base my opinions solely on outside stuff. If I truly love a character, outside factors won't make much of a difference. Ex. Steph. However, when it comes to characters who have outside stuff built into their creations and/or I didn't even care about them before the outside stuff, yeah, it's gonna make me dislike/hate them. And I'm not going to apologize for feeling a certain way. 

Oh, and yes, it _does_ have baring on the material itself.

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah, I love all of them (except Talon) .
> 
> Do you mind elaborating? I think this is the first time I've heard of him commenting on Cass.


I love Sasha and Kate, and enjoy the other three okay (my hatred is reserved for editorial's decision to highlight a really inferior version of Babsgirl).

As for Yang - http://www.cbr.com/cbr-tv-gene-yang-...mics-and-more/ - except I always forget that he seems to actually like Cass in this interview. For some reason I always think he didn't like Cass because he thought she was stereotypical - but that was actually a reported response by Illidge, not Yang. Yang seems to have liked Cass as a kid. But that just means why don't we ask for a Cass solo by him?  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> I guess I should really read Rucka's _Checkmate_ at some point .


Oh, you should! It's really excellent. But STOP after Rucka and Trautman leave. The last "arc" is horrible - bad comics, and almost nothing to do with the original book. (I also hate the Outsiders crossover, but it's not nearly as bad.)

----------


## Assam

> I guess I should really read Rucka's _Checkmate_ at some point .


The book stars Sasha and turned Bea into a mass murderer. I have got no interest.

----------


## Frontier

> The book stars Sasha and *turned Bea into a mass murderer.* I have got no interest.


Well, that sounds kind of awful, but is that after Rucka and Trautman leave...?

----------


## Blight

Speaking of haunting. A friend who left comics, got his interest peaked at Rebirth when learning Cass was back and they were ditching Tim's New 52 origin. So I gave him a list of comics (I gave a summary of which issues of Tec had what and a few key issues of Batman & Robin Eternal for Cass). And the reward for him reading all this was this:

tumblr_oy92ugXlop1rs2r4bo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> Oh, and yes, it _does_ have baring on the material itself.


Uh... _how?_ That doesn't make any sense.

----------


## Assam

@Blight Saw that on Tumblr...I think someone on one of the first pages of this thread said something about Cass generally getting the best fanart in the BatFamily. The more things change, huh?  :Smile: 

@Miller Yang is a Cass fan...speaking of reasons for things, I just keep  getting more reasons to love this man.  :Big Grin:  (Honestly now that I know he's a fan, I REALLY want him to write her.)

----------


## millernumber1

> The book stars Sasha and turned Bea into a mass murderer. I have got no interest.





> Well, that sounds kind of awful, but is that after Rucka and Trautman leave...?


I would not say that Fire was a mass murderer in Checkmate. She kills one person, as far as I recall, and it's a military operation with no non-lethality rules. It does basically make everyone involved either pretty morally grey or kicks them out right quick, though. I love it a lot, including the way they handled Fire, but I will admit that it was a comic I read very early in my comic reading career (I read it pretty soon after it came out in trades at the library), and I have little experience with the characters outside of of the Checkmate series. But that series made me a big fan of Mr. Terrific, Fire, and a bunch of other superheros I normally wouldn't have read about, so I think it was a great thing! (I also think it's Sasha's best appearance, because it doesn't involve her pining for Batman  :Wink:  )

----------


## Assam

> Uh... _how?_ That doesn't make any sense.


Because how a character is presented in-story is often impacted _by_ outside factors. Ex. If DC hadn't been pushing Kate as much as they have been since Rebirth began, the current structure of 'Tec and Kate's portrayal in it would not exist.

----------


## Caivu

> Because how a character is presented in-story is often impacted _by_ outside factors. Ex. If DC hadn't been pushing Kate as much as they have been since Rebirth began, the current structure of 'Tec and Kate's portrayal in it would not exist.


 :Confused:  I seriously don't understand what you're talking about or why that should matter at all. I don't see any sense in judging a character by anything other than their actions/personality.

----------


## millernumber1

> Because how a character is presented in-story is often impacted _by_ outside factors. Ex. If DC hadn't been pushing Kate as much as they have been since Rebirth began, the current structure of 'Tec and Kate's portrayal in it would not exist.


While I do think that "pushing" exists (as well as "suppressing") within editorial, I think it's not always the cause of our woes as Cass (or Steph or any marginalized character) fans. I think the Evil Cass storyline was definitely deliberate editorial suppression of Cass as a character, as was her leaving Outsiders and the Batgirl mantle. I know there's a certain weight of circumstantial evidence that Kate's debut as Batwoman was used as a justification by editorial for suppressing Cass. However, I would disagree that Kate's role in Tec is because of pushing by editorial. I think Tynion looked at all the characters he loved and weren't getting used at the end of the n52 (and I would note that as much as people dislike it, Batman and Robin Eternal represents a significant push by Tynion and editorial for Cass, and Kate didn't have anything close to that for at least a year before Rebirth), and made Kate the co-leader because she fits the role best. Cass would definitely have been in position to take that role during the Outsiders run, but current continuity Cass just wouldn't fit that role. And I do think that Tynion is deliberately pushing her to that place - but outside of Tynion and possibly Yang, I don't think there's any writer at DC who really wants to use her. I mean, there's a chance that Seeley might, but he's left Gotham.

----------


## millernumber1

> I seriously don't understand what you're talking about or why that should matter at all. I don't see any sense in judging a character by anything other than their actions/personality.


There's too often a sense that characters are locked in a zero-sum game for page/editorial/fan space, and a push for one represents a suppression of another. I don't think that's always the case, but it can happen.

----------


## Caivu

> There's too often a sense that characters are locked in a zero-sum game for page/editorial/fan space, and a push for one represents a suppression of another. I don't think that's always the case, but it can happen.


Yeah, I might joke about it here and there, but I don't think it happens a lot at all.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I might joke about it here and there, but I don't think it happens a lot at all.


There have definitely been times when editorial had it out for both Cass and Steph, though, which is why both fandoms tend to be oversensitive, I think.

(I know that's my own tendency.)

----------


## Assam

> I seriously don't understand what you're talking about or why that should matter at all. I don't see any sense in judging a character by anything other than their actions/personality.


Perhaps it wasn't the most well thought out statement on my part (it happens) but it was also the least important part of what I was saying. When judging a character or book objectively, yes, quality is all that matters. However, on a subjective level, I'm allowed to feel however I want based on anything. Ex. The difference in my scores for Steph's Batgirl book on an objective level vs on a subjective level. 




> I know there's a certain weight of circumstantial evidence that Kate's debut as Batwoman was used as a justification by editorial for suppressing Cass.


You mean like the colorist of #73 outright saying that's what happened? 




> However, I would disagree that Kate's role in Tec is because of pushing by editorial. I think Tynion looked at all the characters he loved and weren't getting used at the end of the n52 (and I would note that as much as people dislike it, Batman and Robin Eternal represents a significant push by Tynion and editorial for Cass, and Kate didn't have anything close to that for at least a year before Rebirth), and made Kate the co-leader because she fits the role best. Cass would definitely have been in position to take that role during the Outsiders run, but current continuity Cass just wouldn't fit that role.


Logical and well said. However, be it on Tynion or editorial, a decision was made to not take advantage of Rebirth to just move Cass back to where she was Pre-FP, as was done with plenty of characters. 




> And I do think that Tynion is deliberately pushing her to that place - but outside of Tynion and possibly Yang, I don't think there's any writer at DC who really wants to use her. I mean, there's a chance that Seeley might, but he's left Gotham.


Well, Simone is working at DC in _some_ capacity atm, and Snyder at least _used_ to be a fan...but that doesn't matter because he's leaving the Batbooks. And Valentine is...out there....

Man I hate everything.

----------


## millernumber1

> Logical and well said. However, be it on Tynion or editorial, a decision was made to not take advantage of Rebirth to just move Cass back to where she was Pre-FP, as was done with plenty of characters. 
> 
> Well, Simone is working at DC in _some_ capacity atm, and Snyder at least _used_ to be a fan...but that doesn't matter because he's leaving the Batbooks. And Valentine is...out there....
> 
> Man I hate everything.


Very few people were outright jerked from their n52 continuity to the pre-Flashpoint continuity. Superman had to have a very long and complicated arc to do that, Tim likewise. The only person I can think who outright simply contradicted what went before was Deathstroke.

Snyder...eh, he falls in the same catagory as Bennett for me when it comes to "I'm a fan of Steph and Cass." They say it in interviews, but there's a distinct lack of fruit even when they have creative control. Valentine would be pretty solid (except I think she loves Harper way more), but she's not really at DC. Higgins would actually be a better bet, and he's at least sorta at DC with the Nightwing miniseries. Simone...I don't really want her touching heros again after what she did to Babs. She's very solid on villains or anti-heros, but I do not want her anywhere close to someone who's supposed to be a pretty pure hero, like Cass. Maybe Wonder Woman/Conan will change that for me, but for now, I just want her to focus on what she wants to write, which pretty plainly seems to be villains for the past decade.

----------


## Assam

Honestly, while talking about the depressing reality of things does make me grateful for what Tynion _is_ doing with her (Even if it doesn't take away from my critiques)  and make me look even more forward to Spring, it also just strengthens my resolve to make it into the industry and, eventually, DC.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

Snyder is a fan of Cass. I was on a podcast before and during when Scott's Detective run when he was a guest and before he became HOT. I remember we talked post podcast at times of our favorite Cass stories (particularly of the Puckett though he does have a fondness for Horrocks). So yeah. The man is a Cass fan.

----------


## millernumber1

> Honestly, while talking about the depressing reality of things does make me grateful for what Tynion _is_ doing with her (Even if it doesn't take away from my critiques)  and make me look even more forward to Spring, it also just strengthens my resolve to make it into the industry and, eventually, DC.


Do it!  :Smile: 




> Snyder is a fan of Cass. I was on a podcast before and during when Scott's Detective run when he was a guest and before he became HOT. I remember we talked post podcast at times of our favorite Cass stories (particularly of the Puckett though he does have a fondness for Horrocks). So yeah. The man is a Cass fan.


Which podcast was that? I know he's said he's a Cass fan, but he continues to not use her since Gates of Gotham (and I'm pretty sure he's said he mostly did oversight, not a lot of actual writing on that miniseries). Even in something where he has pretty much complete creative control and no real editorial constraints like All Star Batman, he hasn't used her at all.

And, to be fair, writing is hard, and lots of writers prefer to use characters they create, since they have developed so much into them, and it's part of their ongoing creative universe. I know Rucka and Dixon both definitely did that with several minor characters who formed the backdrop of their long careers at DC. It just doesn't really show as a fan when he has the opportunity to use Cass, but doesn't do it for six years.

(Though again, he did lend his name to Batman and Robin Eternal, which almost certainly helped it in sales and getting it through editorial. So there's that).

----------


## Assam

> Snyder is a fan of Cass. I was on a podcast before and during when Scott's Detective run when he was a guest and before he became HOT. I remember we talked post podcast at times of our favorite Cass stories (particularly of the Puckett though he does have a fondness for Horrocks). So yeah. The man is a Cass fan.


Good to hear! (Although as I said, irrelevant since he's leaving the Batbooks soon) The main two points that have always made me think Snyder was a Cass fan was that he and Higgens originally wanted Gates of Gotham to be _about_ her, and that he wanted to use her early in his Batman run, including at the gala scene in #1.

----------


## Blight

This is a subject I've long looked after. I've always wanted to ask some of the subjects involved (Tomasi, Didio). But I just think back to what a famous comic writer once told me a long tiem ago about characters he wasn't fond of. That he'd just not write them period. He'd ignore them and wouldn't write anything about  them. If he did, he'd figure it would be a hinderance to that character. So he didn't do it. But he then let it slip that while he wasn't a fan of a character, that there's always another writer who is. Sure enough he told me, Watch out for _____ in this comic. Sure enough that character showed up in that. 

Long story short. Theories and evidence onto the how's and why's are I put here, here, and here. The best answers anyone are gonna find other than asking directly.

----------


## Blight

> Do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> Which podcast was that?



The Outhouse Pirate Podcast on Talk Shoe. Scott came on twice to the program. Prior and during Tec. The during during Tec one probably isn't on the podcast as the guests listening live on that one went to over forty. We were having issues already logging in and when we logged out of the podcast. The entire podcast wasn't uploaded onto the site. Thankfully, I hand-typed all the questions/answers Scott had during the podcast and posted it on the front page.

Honestly though, I don't know where that particularly link is. I haven't listened to it in years, given I get real sad now listening to episodes given one of the frequent guests/collaborators died suddenly.

----------


## millernumber1

> The Outhouse Pirate Podcast on Talk Shoe. Scott came on twice to the program. Prior and during Tec. The during during Tec one probably isn't on the podcast as the guests listening live on that one went to over forty. We were having issues already logging in and when we logged out of the podcast. The entire podcast wasn't uploaded onto the site. Thankfully, I hand-typed all the questions/answers Scott had during the podcast and posted it on the front page.
> 
> Honestly though, I don't know where that particularly link is. I haven't listened to it in years, given I get real sad now listening to episodes given one of the frequent guests/collaborators died suddenly.


Thanks, friend! That is sad, though.  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Do it!


Definitely doing what I can. All goes according to plan, when I finish college, I'll have a screenwriting & playwriting degree, two published novels with more in the works, contributions to an anthology comic, and a completed first issue for something I see A LOT of potential in. (Also some short films but I don't think those are relevant) Hopefully _something_ there will help. 




> Which podcast was that? I know he's said he's a Cass fan, but he continues to not use her since Gates of Gotham (and I'm pretty sure he's said he mostly did oversight, not a lot of actual writing on that miniseries). Even in something where he has pretty much complete creative control and no real editorial constraints like All Star Batman, he hasn't used her at all.
> 
> And, to be fair, writing is hard, and lots of writers prefer to use characters they create, since they have developed so much into them, and it's part of their ongoing creative universe. I know Rucka and Dixon both definitely did that with several minor characters who formed the backdrop of their long careers at DC. It just doesn't really show as a fan when he has the opportunity to use Cass, but doesn't do it for six years.
> 
> (Though again, he did lend his name to Batman and Robin Eternal, which almost certainly helped it in sales and getting it through editorial. So there's that).


I think Snyder definitely had a hand in Cass and Steph coming back and it wasn't _just_ Tynion using Snyder's influence. 

Also, in regards to All-Star, that's probably just a matter of him wanting to focus on just Bruce and his original character, and feeling comfortable leaving Cass in Tynion's hands. 

Mind you, regarding All-Star, Snyder having Bruce use one of Cass's most iconic quotes while also basically wearing her symbol as part of his? Not cool.

----------


## Assam

> Long story short. Theories and evidence onto the how's and why's are I put here, here, and here. The best answers anyone are gonna find other than asking directly.


I see the warning so I'm probably going to regret this but I'm gonna give these a read.

----------


## millernumber1

> This is a subject I've long looked after. I've always wanted to ask some of the subjects involved (Tomasi, Didio). But I just think back to what a famous comic writer once told me a long tiem ago about characters he wasn't fond of. That he'd just not write them period. He'd ignore them and wouldn't write anything about  them. If he did, he'd figure it would be a hinderance to that character. So he didn't do it. But he then let it slip that while he wasn't a fan of a character, that there's always another writer who is. Sure enough he told me, Watch out for _____ in this comic. Sure enough that character showed up in that. 
> 
> Long story short. Theories and evidence onto the how's and why's are I put here, here, and here. The best answers anyone are gonna find other than asking directly.


That's some amazing detective blogging. Thank you for that! (Also really loved the "lost issues" post - those are so bittersweet - and it gives me another thing to add to my Steph wiki - I didn't have that original Robin #177 cover!)

----------


## Assam

Wow @Blight, that was a really good read! I may have known most of this already but it was still really engaging and there were actually a couple tidbits I didn't know about.  :Smile: 

Really, other than Cass's status improving immensely from all the years of tragedy, the only thing which has changed since those posts is that we do now know why Cass wasn't in Hush. (Glad to know I'm not the only one who sees that as the beginning of the end)

----------


## millernumber1

> Wow @Blight, that was a really good read! I may have known most of this already but it was still really engaging and there were actually a couple tidbits I didn't know about. 
> 
> Really, other than Cass's status improving immensely from all the years of tragedy, the only thing which has changed since those posts is that we do now know why Cass wasn't in Hush. (Glad to know I'm not the only one who sees that as the beginning of the end)


What's the source on the Hush thing? I've looked for it, but can't find a source.

----------


## Assam

> What's the source on the Hush thing? I've looked for it, but can't find a source.


I know it's better when bringing this stuff up to have a source at the ready, but I know this isn't like the reason Harper was created; this isn't just a (Still potentially true) rumor that spread so far it became the truth in people's minds. The info that Lee didn't like drawing Cass came from a legit source, even if I can no longer find it.

----------


## Blight

I honestly think Snyder and the editor at that time were the reasons why Cass/Steph returned back to the Bat Books. I get the feeling though the Bat Books are better run with than in the past. That some do embrace the Rebirth message. But there are others that don't. But look at this way. Detective is a high selling and popular comic. The team dynamic is proven worked. Kate got a new ongoing from it. It's obvious that Tynion is wants one with Cass too given he's practically built a supporting cast for her. Question is when will DC go for the pitch and will he get a co-writer to help him with it?

----------


## Assam

> I honestly think Snyder and the editor at that time were the reasons why Cass/Steph returned back to the Bat Books. I get the feeling though the Bat Books are better run with than in the past. That some do embrace the Rebirth message. But there are others that don't.


I agree. 




> But look at this way. Detective is a high selling and popular comic. The team dynamic is proven worked.


Yes. Even if I have many problems with this book, this is still a good thing overall. 




> Kate got a new ongoing from it.


Unfortunately, with the book's low sales (On top of the similarly low sales of Batgirl, BBoP, and Batman Beyond) may keep DC from wanting to launch more bat spinoffs. Hopefully not, and there are obviously other factors in play besides them being Bat Books, but I wouldn't be surprised if DC saw it that way. 




> It's obvious that Tynion is wants one with Cass too given he's practically built a supporting cast for her.


Yeah, I think Basil (Powerless or not) and Christine  (Along with  semi-regular appearances from Steph, Bruce, and Timl maybe even JPV) could make for a really strong supporting cast. The only thing that could make it better, while still being realistic regarding Babs, would be if they brought Brenda back. 




> Question is when will DC go for the pitch


I'm holding out hope that we _might_ get something (Maybe even just a mini) when we lose the Orphan name. Like I said though, the low sales of the aforementioned books could be a problem. 




> and will he get a co-writer to help him with it?


Hopefully, especially since there _are_ several great candidates.

----------


## Blight

The thing is. Yes, BoP, Batgirl, BB, and Batwoman are low. But all it takes is an issue to jump start and make people want to buy it. Take the recent BoP issue. At my LCS it was always easy getting a copy of that ongoing save the latest issue. It's been sold out two weeks straight and I'm still waiting for the issue on back order.

----------


## Assam

> The thing is. Yes, BoP, Batgirl, BB, and Batwoman are low. But all it takes is an issue to jump start and make people want to buy it. Take the recent BoP issue. At my LCS it was always easy getting a copy of that ongoing save the latest issue. It's been sold out two weeks straight and I'm still waiting for the issue on back order.


I don't disagree. 

And we'll see how this issue of BoP sold overall soon enough. (This was my first time reading a full issue of the book and I personally thought it was pretty bad)

----------


## Caivu

> Unfortunately, with the book's low sales (On top of the similarly low sales of Batgirl, BBoP, and Batman Beyond) may keep DC from wanting to launch more bat spinoffs. Hopefully not, and there are obviously other factors in play besides them being Bat Books, but I wouldn't be surprised if DC saw it that way.


It would seem that there's a rather easy solution to this...  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> It would seem that there's a rather easy solution to this...


Afraid I don't get the joke.  :Confused:

----------


## Caivu

> Afraid I don't get the joke.


If you want more Bat-spinoffs, support the ones that are already out.

----------


## Assam

> If you want more Bat-spinoffs, support the ones that are already out.


Cunningham and (I think) Van Sciver have tried telling similar things to Wally West and John Stewart fans. 

Sorry, but with the price of comics now, I'm not gonna be paying for books I think are crap that star characters I don't care about, just for the sake of adding one more sale, especially when 3 of the 4 books in question haven't even stabilized and are still dropping.

----------


## Caivu

> Sorry, but with the price of comics now, I'm not gonna be paying for books I think are crap that star characters I don't care about, just for the sake of adding one more sale, especially when 3 of the 4 books in question haven't even stabilized and are still dropping.


Then I don't know what else can be done.

----------


## millernumber1

> The thing is. Yes, BoP, Batgirl, BB, and Batwoman are low. But all it takes is an issue to jump start and make people want to buy it. Take the recent BoP issue. At my LCS it was always easy getting a copy of that ongoing save the latest issue. It's been sold out two weeks straight and I'm still waiting for the issue on back order.


Interesting! BoP is on my pull list, so I didn't notice a scarcity. I'll have to check when I pick up Tec this week.  :Smile:  I guess all the crazy guest stars must have helped!

----------


## Assam

KaylabeeMarie strikes again with Damian in pumpkin pants, Tim being a master artist and Cass possibly acting out the wedding with her dolls. 

dolls.jpg

----------


## Assam

another hug.jpg

Critically speaking, this reunion has no meaning, but as a fan, I'd be lying if I said I didn't really like this moment; hopefully a sign that Tim and Cass will re-develop their bond in the coming arcs. 

Still hate Cass being so short BTW; that's never gonna change.

----------


## Aahz

> Still hate Cass being so short BTW; that's never gonna change.


Yeah, I mean Tim is already quite short, based on this picture she is something like 5 feet at best.

And I also not a fan her being drawn with "realistic proportions".

----------


## Frontier

> another hug.jpg
> 
> Critically speaking, this reunion has no meaning, but as a fan, I'd be lying if I said I didn't really like this moment; hopefully a sign that Tim and Cass will re-develop their bond in the coming arcs. 
> 
> Still hate Cass being so short BTW; that's never gonna change.


It makes you wonder how much we should disassociate what we actually expect a characters' relationship to be and what it currently should be with continuity in mind (IE, Rebirth in a nutshell). 

Cass' current absurdly short height lends itself well to a tippy-toe kiss (not that she'll probably be kissing anyone in the near future).

----------


## Assam

> Cass' current absurdly short height lends itself well to a tippy-toe kiss (not that she'll probably be kissing anyone in the near future).


Depends. Did  we get a confirmed age on Christine?  :Wink:

----------


## RedBird

macydraws.tumblr

----------


## Assam

It's to be expected of "Detective Comics" but League of Shadows is still doing amazing in trade sales, which, in theory anyway, can only lead to good things. (Also, the actual description gives attention to Cass, unlike the original solicit.) 

One thing I've noticed from both the reviews I'm seeing of this trade and just reaction to the series in general (mostly) is that Cass seems to be the only case so far where Tynion has succeeded in his goal of building back up a fanbase. 

Kate's fanbase, like Kate herself, never really went away and based on her solo's sales, her core fanbase is the same as before, Victim Syndicate and Wrath of Spoiler are (unfairly) reviled, even if upon re-inspection Victim Syndicate has a major shortcoming I didn't think of before, Intelligence featured probably some of Tynion's best writing ever for DC and some brilliant moments, but JPV himself did get lost in the shuffle, overshadowed by Zatanna, his final fight being less impressive than the one in the previous issue, Zatanna, his Bat-Suit getting more hype than JPV himself, and Zatanna (I have mentioned that this arc could have been legitimately great if they just shrank Zee's role, right?) and with Tim, likewise with Kate but on a bigger scale, his fanbase never died down; they just got pissed at bad writing. 

With Cass though, despite League of Shadows being the messiest story (it still has some of my favorite issues in this run though) the character arc that, despite 956, I still feel mostly worked, seems to be ringing true for people who are being introduced to Cass in this run, and I'm seeing more and more fans pop up. _We_ may not be entirely satisfied by RebirthCass, and unlike Pre-FPCass I can understand why people might not like this version, but overall, her fanbase, which was still big and passionate before this run, IS growing. It's further aided by the fact that Basil and Cass's dynamic is just about the only universally praised thing in this book. Tynion may not be giving us the Cass we deserve (at least not yet) but out of this cast, I think he really may be doing the most to set her up for success in the future.

----------


## millernumber1

> It's to be expected of "Detective Comics" but League of Shadows is still doing amazing in trade sales, which, in theory anyway, can only lead to good things. (Also, the actual description gives attention to Cass, unlike the original solicit.) 
> 
> One thing I've noticed from both the reviews I'm seeing of this trade and just reaction to the series in general (mostly) is that Cass seems to be the only case so far where Tynion has succeeded in his goal of building back up a fanbase. 
> 
> Kate's fanbase, like Kate herself, never really went away and based on her solo's sales, her core fanbase is the same as before, Victim Syndicate and Wrath of Spoiler are (unfairly) reviled, even if upon re-inspection Victim Syndicate has a major shortcoming I didn't think of before, Intelligence featured probably some of Tynion's best writing ever for DC and some brilliant moments, but JPV himself did get lost in the shuffle, overshadowed by Zatanna, his final fight being less impressive than the one in the previous issue, Zatanna, his Bat-Suit getting more hype than JPV himself, and Zatanna (I have mentioned that this arc could have been legitimately great if they just shrank Zee's role, right?) and with Tim, likewise with Kate but on a bigger scale, his fanbase never died down; they just got pissed at bad writing. 
> 
> With Cass though, despite League of Shadows being the messiest story (it still has some of my favorite issues in this run though) the character arc that, despite 956, I still feel mostly worked, seems to be ringing true for people who are being introduced to Cass in this run, and I'm seeing more and more fans pop up. _We_ may not be entirely satisfied by RebirthCass, and unlike Pre-FPCass I can understand why people might not like this version, but overall, her fanbase, which was still big and passionate before this run, IS growing. It's further aided by the fact that Basil and Cass's dynamic is just about the only universally praised thing in this book. Tynion may not be giving us the Cass we deserve (at least not yet) but out of this cast, I think he really may be doing the most to set her up for success in the future.


Yay! (But also tears for Steph. I will say that for me, Tynion has made me much more of a fan of JPV than I was before. I'm not at the point where I'd buy a title for him alone, but I'm likely to be happy about seeing him in a title, whereas before I was incredibly meh.) (Also, I recommended Intelligence to Alisa Kwitney at Baltimore Comic-Con, because she's writing Zatanna in Mystik U, which sounds pretty fun, and was very enthusiastic about reading more of her current stuff.)

----------


## Assam

> I will say that for me, Tynion has made me much more of a fan of JPV than I was before. I'm not at the point where I'd buy a title for him alone, but I'm likely to be happy about seeing him in a title, whereas before I was incredibly meh.


Well, hopefully you'll get there. (Maybe meeting George the kitten would work?) I actually just realized yesterday that the 8-man roster for Fall of the Batmen will  have all of my Top 5 "Official" BatFamily members, which at least sounds awesome. (And no, it isn't a coincidence that all of the other 4 have been close with Cass at one point or another. It goes a long way. :Smile:  ) 




> (Also, I recommended Intelligence to Alisa Kwitney at Baltimore Comic-Con, because she's writing Zatanna in Mystik U, which sounds pretty fun, and was very enthusiastic about reading more of her current stuff.)


Yeah, I may feel Zee took up WAY too much time in Intelligence, but Tynion did still write her really well. 

I'm not gonna be reading Mystik U, but at least Kwitney pretty much already bottomed out with Convergence: Batgirl...a shame she bottomed out with our favorite characters, but point is, it might be good.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, hopefully you'll get there. (Maybe meeting George the kitten would work?) I actually just realized yesterday that the 8-man roster for Fall of the Batmen will  have all of my Top 5 "Official" BatFamily members, which at least sounds awesome. (And no, it isn't a coincidence that all of the other 4 have been close with Cass at one point or another. It goes a long way. ) 
> 
> Yeah, I may feel Zee took up WAY too much time in Intelligence, but Tynion did still write her really well. 
> 
> I'm not gonna be reading Mystik U, but at least Kwitney pretty much already bottomed out with Convergence: Batgirl...a shame she bottomed out with our favorite characters, but point is, it might be good.


I am a cat person, so that might indeed help.  :Smile:  But, as with your love of characters who love Cass, the thing to make me love a character quickly is have them love Steph. And so far, we haven't had any Jean-Paul/Steph interaction past that one (admittedly very nice) scene in Victim Syndicate.

I think Zee was good in Intelligence, though I will agree she's definitely as big a character as Jean-Paul, which isn't quite the stated goal of that arc.

(I still have a few things I appreciate about Convergence: Batgirl, though a lot of the good stuff is hampered by some incredibly subpar art, but I'm pretty interested in Mystik U. Maybe that's Tynion's influence, too.)

----------


## Blight

> It's to be expected of "Detective Comics" but League of Shadows is still doing amazing in trade sales, which, in theory anyway, can only lead to good things. (Also, the actual description gives attention to Cass, unlike the original solicit.) 
> 
> One thing I've noticed from both the reviews I'm seeing of this trade and just reaction to the series in general (mostly) is that Cass seems to be the only case so far where Tynion has succeeded in his goal of building back up a fanbase. 
> 
> Kate's fanbase, like Kate herself, never really went away and based on her solo's sales, her core fanbase is the same as before, Victim Syndicate and Wrath of Spoiler are (unfairly) reviled, even if upon re-inspection Victim Syndicate has a major shortcoming I didn't think of before, Intelligence featured probably some of Tynion's best writing ever for DC and some brilliant moments, but JPV himself did get lost in the shuffle, overshadowed by Zatanna, his final fight being less impressive than the one in the previous issue, Zatanna, his Bat-Suit getting more hype than JPV himself, and Zatanna (I have mentioned that this arc could have been legitimately great if they just shrank Zee's role, right?) and with Tim, likewise with Kate but on a bigger scale, his fanbase never died down; they just got pissed at bad writing. 
> 
> With Cass though, despite League of Shadows being the messiest story (it still has some of my favorite issues in this run though) the character arc that, despite 956, I still feel mostly worked, seems to be ringing true for people who are being introduced to Cass in this run, and I'm seeing more and more fans pop up. _We_ may not be entirely satisfied by RebirthCass, and unlike Pre-FPCass I can understand why people might not like this version, but overall, her fanbase, which was still big and passionate before this run, IS growing. It's further aided by the fact that Basil and Cass's dynamic is just about the only universally praised thing in this book. Tynion may not be giving us the Cass we deserve (at least not yet) but out of this cast, I think he really may be doing the most to set her up for success in the future.


The problem I have with Stephanie's arc throughout the series, is we're getting a tiny portion of it. Like we're missing some big beats and honestly it could have benefited with some longer issues to focus on the aftermath of the Victim's Synidcate arc. It just feels rushed and because of that Stephanie's character suffers from that. I get why though Tynion has to do what he's gotta do. He's got an outline and sadly things have to be rushed to get certain points. He had only till now to get that with Tim back. Sadly, well Stephanie's arc gets muddled. 

I think that's why Tim, Cass, and Basil are the shining characters in the series. Tynion has taken his time to develop the three and continues. Why the reader can more easier latch onto these characters than sadly Steph. I think it also helps that Kate has her own ongoing because it by having her own story arc be more in that one. I mean sure we're getting a major Kate arc soon, but it's been building nicely in her ongoing and gingerly teased here/there throughout thus far.

I agree Jean Paul got outshined in his own arc by his armor and Zatanna. But look at poor Luke. All he is the tech guy. That and his budding friendship with Jean Paul. That's all he's got. Nothing more. He's feels just fill-in when he shouldn't feel as such. He fills the void when Tim was "gone". But with Tim back. Where does that leave him? With Jean Paul at least you're given an overall arc since he's been in this run. From the hunted to trying to stray with a good path to tempted/brainwashed again to breaking his chains to the past.

----------


## Assam

> The problem I have with Stephanie's arc throughout the series, is we're getting a tiny portion of it. Like we're missing some big beats and honestly it could have benefited with some longer issues to focus on the aftermath of the Victim's Synidcate arc. It just feels rushed and because of that Stephanie's character suffers from that. I get why though Tynion has to do what he's gotta do. He's got an outline and sadly things have to be rushed to get certain points. He had only till now to get that with Tim back. Sadly, well Stephanie's arc gets muddled.


I agree.  




> I think that's why Tim, Cass, and Basil are the shining characters in the series. Tynion has taken his time to develop the three and continues. Why the reader can more easier latch onto these characters than sadly Steph. I think it also helps that Kate has her own ongoing because it by having her own story arc be more in that one. *I mean sure we're getting a major Kate arc soon, but it's been building nicely in her ongoing and gingerly teased here/there throughout thus far.*


I'm still hoping that Fall of the Batmen is primarily Basil's arc, with Kate being in the secondary role a la Tim in the first arc. 




> I agree Jean Paul got outshined in his own arc by his armor and Zatanna. But look at poor Luke. All he is the tech guy. That and his budding friendship with Jean Paul. That's all he's got. Nothing more. He's feels just fill-in when he shouldn't feel as such. He fills the void when Tim was "gone". But with Tim back. Where does that leave him? With Jean Paul at least you're given an overall arc since he's been in this run. From the hunted to trying to stray with a good path to tempted/brainwashed again to breaking his chains to the past.


Yeah, Luke drew the straw short enough that I didn't even see a point in mentioning him in that post; it's _obvious_ that nothing has really been done here to significantly grow his fanbase. I love his moments  with JPV and they make a better duo than I think anyone would have thought (Even if Tynion did somewhat change Luke's character for this to work) but apart from them, the best thing to come out of his presence in the book wasn't even a scene he was in, but Duke's best scene in Rebirth. He's just gotten nothing to do. And that's not stopping soon it seems, since, at earliest, he'll finally be getting an arc in the Summer; almost 2 years since he joined the team. As one of the few BatFamily members to get overall worse treatment than Cass in 2017, I do feel for his fans...even if I admit, I've never met anyone who has Luke as their favorite BatFamily member.

----------


## Aahz

> Yeah, Luke drew the straw short enough that I didn't even see a point in mentioning him in that post; it's _obvious_ that nothing has really been done here to significantly grow his fanbase. I love his moments  with JPV and they make a better duo than I think anyone would have thought (Even if Tynion did somewhat change Luke's character for this to work) but apart from them, the best thing to come out of his presence in the book wasn't even a scene he was in, but Duke's best scene in Rebirth. He's just gotten nothing to do. And that's not stopping soon it seems, since, at earliest, he'll finally be getting an arc in the Summer; almost 2 years since he joined the team. As one of the few BatFamily members to get overall worse treatment than Cass in 2017, I do feel for his fans...even if I admit, I've never met anyone who has Luke as their favorite BatFamily member.


Actually, I'm even wondering if he will stick around now with Tim back in the book. The reason he was brought into the team was iirc to take over as the techguy from Tim, after Tim's death. Now with Tim back I don't really see what they want to do with him, unless they are splitting the teams.

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, Luke drew the straw short enough that I didn't even see a point in mentioning him in that post; it's _obvious_ that nothing has really been done here to significantly grow his fanbase. I love his moments  with JPV and they make a better duo than I think anyone would have thought (Even if Tynion did somewhat change Luke's character for this to work) but apart from them, the best thing to come out of his presence in the book wasn't even a scene he was in, but Duke's best scene in Rebirth. He's just gotten nothing to do. And that's not stopping soon it seems, since, at earliest, he'll finally be getting an arc in the Summer; almost 2 years since he joined the team. As one of the few BatFamily members to get overall worse treatment than Cass in 2017, I do feel for his fans...even if I admit, I've never met anyone who has Luke as their favorite BatFamily member.


I don't know if I'd say Luke is my favorite, but I like him a lot! I thought his role in Intelligence was pretty cool - with Rookie, and building the AzBats suit. (And I like him a LOT more than Duke. And Harper.  :Wink:  )




> Actually, I'm even wondering if he will stick around now with Tim back in the book. The reason he was brought into the team was iirc to take over as the techguy from Tim, after Tim's death. Now with Tim back I don't really see what they want to do with him, unless they are splitting the teams.


Well, Tynion sets up that Tim is glad Luke's on the team, and wants to talk to him, so it doesn't sound like a setup for him leaving. I think Assam's idea of a new spinoff team book is a solid one, though I personally would be fine with one team for now. THE TEAM! (I can't get over how great that whole exchange was - "You really are Batman's cousin")

----------


## Assam

> I don't know if I'd say Luke is my favorite, but I like him a lot! I thought his role in Intelligence was pretty cool - with Rookie, and building the AzBats suit. (And I like him a LOT more than Duke. And Harper.  )


I like him too, again, primarily for the bromance. Definitely more than Duke and Harper as well. And a good number of other notable Bats But much like how I really like what's been done with JPV here, it still remains that not much has been done for either on a large scale.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't know if I'd say Luke is my favorite, but I like him a lot! I thought his role in Intelligence was pretty cool - with Rookie, and building the AzBats suit. (And I like him a LOT more than Duke. And Harper.  )


I like him, but I wouldn't really miss him, if he was put back in limbo (and that's similar with JPV).

----------


## batnbreakfast

I finished League of Shadows yesterday and am disappointed. Really like the characters it features but not the plots they find themselves in. Colony ruined Kate's dad, Victim Syndicate peed on Bruce's rep (again), League of Shadows... well, why are all the League and Shiva tales one and the same? The art in Tec is really nice, though. Tec has that X-Men vibe for me and could be titled Outsiders or Batfamily Eternal for all I care.

----------


## millernumber1

> I like him too, again, primarily for the bromance. Definitely more than Duke and Harper as well. And a good number of other notable Bats But much like how I really like what's been done with JPV here, it still remains that not much has been done for either on a large scale.


I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I think that being part of a team, and having distinct things they do - Jean Paul with his complicated and nuanced approach to faith as well as his bombastic "KNOW THAT MEN CALL YOU DEFILER!", Luke with his company, tech, good-nature, Iron-Bat suit, and Rookie (I'm really excited about him having Rookie, let me tell you) - it does a lot for me as a fan of them. PLUS, Luke's sister is confirmed back in the world, instead of the horrible injury they saddled her with in his solo, so Tam Fox is available for stories again!




> I finished League of Shadows yesterday and am disappointed. Really like the characters it features but not the plots they find themselves in. Colony ruined Kate's dad, Victim Syndicate peed on Bruce's rep (again), League of Shadows... well, why are all the League and Shiva tales one and the same? The art in Tec is really nice, though. Tec has that X-Men vibe for me and could be titled Outsiders or Batfamily Eternal for all I care.


How about Gotham Knights?  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I think that being part of a team, and having distinct things they do - Jean Paul with his complicated and nuanced approach to faith as well as his bombastic "KNOW THAT MEN CALL YOU DEFILER!", Luke with his company, tech, good-nature, Iron-Bat suit, and Rookie (I'm really excited about him having Rookie, let me tell you) - it does a lot for me as a fan of them. PLUS, Luke's sister is confirmed back in the world, instead of the horrible injury they saddled her with in his solo, so Tam Fox is available for stories again!


Again, I like this too. This book was my first real exposure to Luke and its made me like the guy. I just don't think this has happened for most people based on what I've seen. I could of course be wrong. And yeah, I'd be happy to see more of Tiff and Tam. 

Also, you and a lot of others really like Rookie. Was he that great in Superheavy?

----------


## millernumber1

> Again, I like this too. This book was my first real exposure to Luke and its made me like the guy. I just don't think this has happened for most people based on what I've seen. I could of course be wrong. And yeah, I'd be happy to see more of Tiff and Tam. 
> 
> Also, you and a lot of others really like Rookie. Was he that great in Superheavy?


Tiff, eh, I really don't like her. She was the weakest point in the Future's End thing - like, why is Babs putting someone out in the field like that, especially if Cass never lets her do anything? And she didn't do much for me in Luke's solo, either. Whereas Tam, in Red Robin, has a lot of character.

I really like Superheavy. I thought Jim as Batman was a really fun concept. And Rookie was a really great companion to Jim in that series, so seeing him show up in Tec was like "Oh, that's what happened to him." And Tynion wrote him so well! Plus, it's the kind of continuity attention to detail that I think enriches comics or any longform serial story - longtime readers have a much enriched experience.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## adrikito

> 



wow, awesome..

*king batman needs her again..*

----------


## Caivu

By Marcio Takara:

8340b124-fc19-4174-b3d3-550df05d0374.jpg

----------


## Assam

> wow, awesome..


Those who haven't read her solo don't even realize how true this is.  :Embarrassment: 




> *king batman needs her again..*


I'm honestly kind of terrified of what King might do with Cass if he was told/ decided to use her. 

What I'm definitely not terrified of though is more Takara Cass!  :Smile: 

takara cass again.jpg

EDIT: Ninja'd by Caivu

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm honestly kind of terrified of what King might do with Cass if he was told/ decided to use her. 
> 
> What I'm definitely not terrified of though is more Takara Cass!


King won't, almost certain, based on his response when I asked him to use Steph.

----------


## Assam

> King won't, almost certain, based on his response when I asked him to use Steph.


This is a rare case where (Unless,  the wedding DOES take place and Cass isn't even included _there_) I'm okay with that. Is it bloody annoying that he'll use all the other kids, even Duke, but not her? Yes. But at the same time, after what he's done to Holly, how he made Jason into comic relief based on a twitter post, and how he's a writer who sees himself as more important than the characters, and I'm almost glad.

----------


## Frontier

> This is a rare case where (Unless,  the wedding DOES take place and Cass isn't even included _there_) I'm okay with that. Is it bloody annoying that he'll use all the other kids, even Duke, but not her? Yes. But at the same time, after what he's done to Holly,* how he made Jason into comic relief based on a twitter post*, and how he's a writer who sees himself as more important than the characters, and I'm almost glad.


Eh, that's just generally Jason's role in family get-togethers at this point, and I think that was established well before King  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Where you get the sense that he's a writer who sees himself as more important then the characters?

----------


## Erick5

> http://bigchrisgallery.deviantart.com/


Awesome art.

----------


## Assam

> Eh, that's just generally Jason's role in family get-togethers at this point, and I think that was established well before King .


Yes, but that doesn't make it right. (And the twitter reference was just overkill.) 




> Where you get the sense that he's a writer who sees himself as more important then the characters?


I have only ever read two books from King where he had total (at least as far as below an editorial level goes) creative control: Vision and Batman. In both of these books, he has completely disregarded the established continuity of minor characters to suit his own needs. Vision was mostly fantastic but his treatment of Victor was just a big middle finger to Runaways fans. And while I don't think his Batman is great at all, its his throwing of Holly under the bus that really pisses me off; wouldn't be surprised if she meets the same fate as Victor. (His Riddler is awful too, but he's been a mess for years) And now I've been hearing that Scott Free is suicidal??? No judgement on that front yet because I haven't read the book, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Scott ends up dead or basically unusable at the end of his series. _That's_ my problem. He treats these characters as if they're creator owned characters and he can do whatever he wants with them, leaving others (like Rowell for Victor currently) to fix AND put the toys away after he's broken and eventually finished playing with them.

----------


## Assam

> Awesome art.


Hey there! Welcome to the forum!

----------


## TheCape

[QUOTE][*He treats these characters as if they're creator owned characters and he can do whatever he wants with them, leaving others (like Rowell for Victor currently) to fix AND put the toys away after he's broken and eventually finished playing with them./QUOTE]
So... he is the new Geoff Johns or Brian Michael Bendis of this decade  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> So... he is the new Geoff Johns or Brian Michael Bendis of this decade


They all do also have bodies of work of greatly varying quality soooooo yeah, sure.  :Big Grin:  Let's only hope King doesn't get as much power as those two.

----------


## Frontier

> So... he is the new Geoff Johns or Brian Michael Bendis of this decade


I think he's more of a Morrison with a touch of Bendis in there (especially in the dialogue).

I also guess there's some of Bendis' cynicism or deconstruction in there.

----------


## Assam

Here's a thought. We've all tossed out new potential codenames before, but what about concepts for an all new costume? The Black Bat design was a pretty heavy departure from the original look in a lot of ways, and we may end up getting another full overhaul in the near future as well. Any ideas?

----------


## Frontier

> Here's a thought. We've all tossed out new potential codenames before, but what about concepts for an all new costume? The Black Bat design was a pretty heavy departure from the original look in a lot of ways, and we may end up getting another full overhaul in the near future as well. Any ideas?


I'm good with anything that brings back the cape  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Here's a thought. We've all tossed out new potential codenames before, but what about concepts for an all new costume? The Black Bat design was a pretty heavy departure from the original look in a lot of ways, and we may end up getting another full overhaul in the near future as well. Any ideas?


I'm good with anything that gets rid of the current mask. Preferably with ears (maybe she can cheat with Huntress style mask ears?). But I just want Cass to look less like a tiny ball on top of a stick figure.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm good with anything that gets rid of the current mask. Preferably with ears (maybe she can cheat with Huntress style mask ears?). But I just want Cass to look less like a tiny ball on top of a stick figure.


The mask would definitely look a lot better with ears.

----------


## Blight

> Here's a thought. We've all tossed out new potential codenames before, but what about concepts for an all new costume? The Black Bat design was a pretty heavy departure from the original look in a lot of ways, and we may end up getting another full overhaul in the near future as well. Any ideas?


A concept I already pondered about. I mean Jim Gordon's Batman had a perfectly good Bat Symbol and costume akin to Cassandra's. So a friend did this for me....

d9TJNSp.jpg

----------


## Assam

@Blight That looks great! 

Actually, considering Cass first earned the Bat-symbol by saving Gordon, if built up to properly, her getting her symbol "back" from him could be a really nice moment.

----------


## Frontier

Isn't that basically the Rebirth Bat-symbol though?

----------


## Blight

> Isn't that basically the Rebirth Bat-symbol though?


Not really. There are fangs in the mark (making the head of the symbol stand out more too) that are basically the difference between the two. The Rebirth symbol only has the highlights, but not that fang portion. That's all Gordon's.

----------


## Frontier

> Not really. There are fangs in the mark (making the head of the symbol stand out more too) that are basically the difference between the two. The Rebirth symbol only has the highlights, but not that fang portion. That's all Gordon's.


Ah, I see  :EEK!: .

From that angle they looked almost exactly alike  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Blight

> @Blight That looks great! 
> 
> Actually, considering Cass first earned the Bat-symbol by saving Gordon, if built up to properly, her getting her symbol "back" from him could be a really nice moment.


That's what I figured when I saw Jim going on in that Bat-suit and the announcement Cass was introduced. I thought, "Okay Jim is so giving her this suit. Cause the symbol and color would benefit her." But nope. Still, would be a nice fit. Uses the nice new bat symbol and honestly it's a good mesh all around.

----------


## Assam

> That's what I figured when I saw Jim going on in that Bat-suit and the announcement Cass was introduced. I thought, "Okay Jim is so giving her this suit. Cause the symbol and color would benefit her." But nope. Still, would be a nice fit. Uses the nice new bat symbol and honestly it's a good mesh all around.


Well, editorial banned the symbol so it's possible that that was the original plan. 

Also, if you haven't yet, show some love for Cass here: 

https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840

----------


## Assam

> Well, editorial banned the symbol so it's possible that that was the original plan. 
> 
> Also, if you haven't yet, show some love for Cass here: 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840


Seeing Cass get far more votes in the above poll than every other Gotham heroine (and being among the top votes in general)does my heart well. Almost as much as as hearing stories from last night about little girls going as Cass for Halloween.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## adrikito

> Well, editorial banned the symbol so it's possible that that was the original plan. 
> 
> Also, if you haven't yet, show some love for Cass here: 
> 
> https://twitter.com/Ssnyder1835/stat...21657679011840


I supported Cass and Steph here... However, if only one of these 2 is chosen, we know that Cass deserve this..

I even voted many people that mention her..

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## Assam

> I supported Cass and Steph here... However, if only one of these 2 is chosen, we know that Cass deserve this..


Glad to hear you feel that way, but I thought you were more of a Steph fan. Did your opinion change at some point?

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

> Seeing Cass get far more votes in the above poll than every other Gotham heroine (and being among the top votes in general)does my heart well. Almost as much as as hearing stories from last night about little girls going as Cass for Halloween.


Thanks for sharing that post from Snyder-voted!!! And I WISH I could have gotten either of my girls to go as Cass. I openly petitioned them, but failed. And now I feel I've failed as a father  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## adrikito

> Glad to hear you feel that way, but I thought you were more of a Steph fan. Did your opinion change at some point?


Young Justice.. As one fan of both characters, I understand that Cass need this more than Steph. 

During the last years I enjoyed Steph presence in another comics like Catwoman, Batgirl(even hating burnside I enjoyed Steph presence here).. If you admire both characters, you understand who need this more.. 

When I investigated about both characters(before batman eternal), her past, parents, the adoption, surprised me more than Steph story... When more sad is one character past, more surprise me see how this character life has changed.

Cass deserve this and more.. My favorite is Steph but..... If you change the Duke serie for a Cass serie, I would be in that comic...

----------


## Assam

cass and leia.jpg

Anyone else now want a fanfiction where Cass teams up with Leia to beat up Trump and the US government and save the world?

----------


## Celgress

> cass and leia.jpg
> 
> Anyone else now want a fanfiction where Cass teams up with Leia to beat up Trump and the US government and save the world?


No, but a character inspired by Trump sure. I prefer allegory.

----------


## adrikito

> cass and leia.jpg
> 
> Anyone else now want a fanfiction where Cass teams up with Leia to beat up Trump and the US government and save the world?


Look her face.. This little girl doesn´t trust in Trump.. Good batgirl..

----------


## Avantre

No, if I wanted ham-fisted references to politics (which would inevitably happen when someone's writing about a guy they don't like) I'd buy a Marvel comic. This is half the reason (the other half being to avoid quickly aging the story) comic book authors always used to put some generic person (or someone in-universe that's interesting, like Luthor) as the president whenever they feature them.

----------


## CPSparkles



----------


## adrikito

batgirls cass steph tim red robin.jpg

Cass Cain as... Nightwing?

Screen Shot 425.jpg

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## Assam

Well isn't this a surprise

Great scott.jpg

New Scott drawn Cass

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## millernumber1

> Well isn't this a surprise
> 
> Great scott.jpg
> 
> New Scott drawn Cass


When did he do that?

----------


## Assam

> When did he do that?


I think it's a NYCC commission (Currently HITTING myself for not realizing he was there!) He's also got new RobinSteph on his Twitter.

----------


## Frontier

> Well isn't this a surprise
> 
> Great scott.jpg
> 
> New Scott drawn Cass


Scott at his most stylized...

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## Assam

Deleted Post

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## millernumber1

> I think it's a NYCC commission (Currently HITTING myself for not realizing he was there!) He's also got new RobinSteph on his Twitter.


Oooh, nice! Thanks!

----------


## Assam

So, I gotta ask with the news from today: How would you react if Cass got a solo, but it was written by Bendis? I haven't read any of his street level stuff (Save a little of Alias) but I've heard he's actually good there?

----------


## reni344

I would read it Bendis tends to like using diverse characters and Cass falls into that category and he does well with those characters. He has written a lot of characters I love (Miles Morales, Daredevil, Jessica Jones) I would read and see how it goes Bendis can be hit and miss when he is really engaged and edited properly he is a great writer. When he is not you get Civil War II. I personally would not mind him taking over Birds of Prey.

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## millernumber1

> So, I gotta ask with the news from today: How would you react if Cass got a solo, but it was written by Bendis? I haven't read any of his street level stuff (Save a little of Alias) but I've heard he's actually good there?


I tend to really enjoy Bendis's street level stuff, but it's all so deeply entwined with the Marvel universe and tone that I'm not sure how it would transfer to Gotham. I know there are writers who switch between worlds well, but I don't see Bendis being one of them. AND Bendis LOVE his text balloons, so I don't think he could really do a good Cass.




> I would read it Bendis tends to like using diverse characters and Cass falls into that category and he does well with those characters. He has written a lot of characters I love (Miles Morales, Daredevil, Jessica Jones) I would read and see how it goes Bendis can be hit and miss when he is really engaged and edited properly he is a great writer. When he is not you get Civil War II.


Not all characters are the same, even if they are not white dudes. See above for why I think Bendis would not do well with Cass specifically. I really enjoyed his Takio series, which had sisters, one of whom was adopted and of a different race (or possibly both were adopted - it's been a while since I've read it) - it's a really fun little series, but it wouldn't work at all for a Cass series. I could see him doing a good motormouth Steph, but not Cass.

----------


## Frontier

> So, I gotta ask with the news from today: How would you react if Cass got a solo, but it was written by Bendis? I haven't read any of his street level stuff (Save a little of Alias) but I've heard he's actually good there?


I'm wondering if Bendis even knows who Cassandra Cain is  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

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## Assam

> I'm wondering if Bendis even knows who Cassandra Cain is ?


that was rude.jpg

10characters

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## millernumber1

> 10characters


I would think it's a fair question, since he's been Marvel exclusive for as far as I can tell his whole career, and I've never read an interview where he talks about the Distinguished Competition.

----------


## Frontier

> I would think it's a fair question, since he's been Marvel exclusive for as far as I can tell his whole career, and I've never read an interview where he talks about the Distinguished Competition.


The most I've seen Bendis talk about DC is him joking around with Geoff Johns on twitter.

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## adrikito

> I'm wondering if Bendis even knows who Cassandra Cain is ?


I heard that name(BENDIS) in Damian Appreciation(cass appreciation is mentioned as the source of this).. 

But after see THECAPE post, I think that maybe I prefer never see him with my favorite characters:




> Trust me on this people. you don't want him there, he might draw better sales than Gleason ever d¡d, but *you probably won't be happy about his charactherization* on Damian.
> 
> *Bendis has a tendency to write charachter OCC*, in order to fit the story that he is getting, even if his Damian is relately good at the beggining,* sooner or later, he would do something that would make Damian look bad*.


I prefer wait for the ideal writer than see cass or another of my favorite characters in bad hands..

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## The Cool Thatguy

> So, I gotta ask with the news from today: How would you react if Cass got a solo, but it was written by Bendis? I haven't read any of his street level stuff (Save a little of Alias) but I've heard he's actually good there?


I think it'd be terrible. Bendis struggles to make his characters sound different in the best of times, and uses dialogue to hide the lack of plot progress. So a natural Cass writer he is not.

But sadly, he also struggles to write basic supporting characters, and instead ropes in superheroes and such. So when he writes Batman, whic I'm sure is coming, he'll fill out his cast with pointless extras who are just talking heads. Ideally Cass would avoid that fate

----------


## Jcogginsa

> I think it'd be terrible. Bendis struggles to make his characters sound different in the best of times, and uses dialogue to hide the lack of plot progress. So a natural Cass writer he is not.
> 
> But sadly, he also struggles to write basic supporting characters, and instead ropes in superheroes and such. So when he writes Batman, whic I'm sure is coming, he'll fill out his cast with pointless extras who are just talking heads. Ideally Cass would avoid that fate


Bendis has commented that Batman is the one character he never wants to write. He doesn't think he can come up with anything new for him.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Bendis has commented that Batman is the one character he never wants to write. He doesn't think he can come up with anything new for him.


Originality was never a Bendis skill

----------


## millernumber1

> Originality was never a Bendis skill ��


I'm not a big fan of people trying to be too original, honestly. My problem is that his stuff just doesn't jive with most of DC (at least, most of DC that I love.  :Wink:

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## Assam

> I'm not a big fan of people trying to be too original, honestly. My problem is that his stuff just doesn't jive with most of DC (at least, most of DC that I love.


Based on some of your past comments about Morrison, I'm guessing you agree with me that his writing often comes off as him going "Look at all my cool ideas!" 

I do feel originality is important, but not to the point of serving as a detriment to or taking away from the story and characters.

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## millernumber1

> Based on some of your past comments about Morrison, I'm guessing you agree with me that his writing often comes off as him going "Look at all my cool ideas!" 
> 
> I do feel originality is important, but not to the point of serving as a detriment to or taking away from the story and characters.


Oh, yes I do! Morrison's ideas aren't even that original - Damian just plays with the same ideas as Cass, the time-travel stuff he already did in 52, the "enemy from the past" is one of the oldest Batman things ever done (see also: Hush). And his characterizations are so leaden/exposition-driven.

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## Assam

> Oh, yes I do! Morrison's ideas aren't even that original - Damian just plays with the same ideas as Cass, the time-travel stuff he already did in 52, the "enemy from the past" is one of the oldest Batman things ever done (see also: Hush). And his characterizations are so leaden/exposition-driven.


Agreed. His Batman stuff is where I feel he has the least _real_ imagination, and as such, why I feel we haven't had a good Batman run  since Pre-War Games. When I think of Morrison at his most "Morrison", I think of stuff like Final Crisis, Multiversity and Doom Patrol, and while I don't think any of that stuff is flat-out awful, I do find them (at least the former two) to be incredibly pretentious. The only Morrison work I really like is Animal Man, some JLA storylines and All-Star Superman.

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## millernumber1

> Agreed. His Batman stuff is where I feel he has the least _real_ imagination, and as such, why I feel we haven't had a good Batman run  since Pre-War Games. When I think of Morrison at his most "Morrison", I think of stuff like Final Crisis, Multiversity and Doom Patrol, and while I don't think any of that stuff is flat-out awful, I do find them (at least the former two) to be incredibly pretentious. The only Morrison work I really like is Animal Man, some JLA storylines and All-Star Superman.


I only half-like All-Star Superman. I do really like that half, but it's still very mixed for me.

But then again, Tom King is probably my favorite of the last three "big name" Batman title writers. Unless Scott Snyder had only written Black Mirror and Court of Owls (and actually ended the storyline, instead of the weak weird non-ending it got). But the five years he did on Batman just don't do it for me as a whole.

Tec has generally been my Batman book - you have Rucka's Batwoman run, Dini's really excellent one and two-shot stories for several years, Snyder's Black Mirror, and now Tynion. (I don't really count anything that happened in the n52 Tec. That was not a good time for me and Tec. Instead, I got the Eternals! Which I know is controversial, but I love them very much.  :Smile:  )

To not hate too much on Morrison, I will say that Batman Reborn and Batman Inc are two really awesome ideas, and I loved the way Gotham worked during those two years.

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## Assam

> To not hate too much on Morrison, I will say that Batman Reborn and Batman Inc are two really awesome ideas, and I loved the way Gotham worked during those two years.


I can definitely say I liked the way Gotham worked in those last 5 months.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## millernumber1

> I can definitely say I liked the way Gotham worked in those last 5 months.


It was definitely looking even more up for me! There was a chance that Steph and Cass would work together again!

And then...

FAIL52

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## Frontier

> Based on some of your past comments about Morrison, I'm guessing you agree with me that his writing often comes off as him going "Look at all my cool ideas!"


I don't think it's that so much as him trying to go as crazy with the medium and every bit of continuity and history as he possibly can  :Stick Out Tongue: .



> Oh, yes I do! Morrison's ideas aren't even that original - Damian just plays with the same ideas as Cass, the time-travel stuff he already did in 52, the "enemy from the past" is one of the oldest Batman things ever done (see also: Hush). And his characterizations are so leaden/exposition-driven.


But he certainly had some very interesting takes on those concepts.

Agreed on the leaden/exposition-driven dialogue/characterization but I think he can sometimes shine for certain characters.

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## millernumber1

> I don't think it's that so much as him trying to go as crazy with the medium and every bit of continuity and history as he possibly can .
> 
> But he certainly had some very interesting takes on those concepts.
> 
> Agreed on the leaden/exposition-driven dialogue/characterization but I think he can sometimes shine for certain characters.


Eh. I don't find them so much interesting as they were deliberately hard to understand - not because the ideas are hard to understand, but because Morrison deliberately didn't tell us what was going on. It's not impressive to be confusing by not telling us things, in my experience.

Which characters do you particularly like Morrison on? I will admit that I think he did a reasonably decent Steph in Batman Inc: Leviathan Strikes.

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## Frontier

> Eh. I don't find them so much interesting as they were deliberately hard to understand - not because the ideas are hard to understand, but because Morrison deliberately didn't tell us what was going on. It's not impressive to be confusing by not telling us things, in my experience.


That wasn't really my experience with the run, but that might just be because I was so glad to be able to have followed the plot as well as I did  :Stick Out Tongue: .




> Which characters do you particularly like Morrison on? I will admit that I think he did a reasonably decent Steph in Batman Inc: Leviathan Strikes.


I don't know if there's a character I particularly like Morrison on, because as a writer he is prone to a kind of character exaggeration or reliance on a hero's archetypical nature, but I thought he generally had a pretty solid handle on most of the main players of his run (even if he kind of went overboard on Talia). 

I definitely think his foundation with Damian is something that has to always be relied upon (both his origins and his character development). 

His Bruce felt like the love child between Silver Age Batman and 90's Batman, and I think his voice felt more right then Synder or even King's had at times. But your mileage may vary on that front.

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## Jcogginsa

I don't see any significant similarities between Damian and Cass.

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## dietrich

> I don't see any significant similarities between Damian and Cass.


I don't know that much about Cass but I hear that claim over and over. However I will point out that Assam* Cass's no 1 fan* said on the Damian thread there really isn't that much similarities between the two. I think that fans just have a knee jerk reaction when they hear LOA, kid and jump to conclusions.

----------


## Assam

For those not following the current BoP storyline (Lucky you), while it is complete and utter crap, Cass actually did get a nice, brief scene with Basil in there so that was something. Of course, it's completely overshadowed by the awful writing and none of the team really interacting. Oh, and with Babs separated from Cass (For VERY idiotic reasons), yeah, any chance of interaction between them is gone.  :Mad: 

Meanwhile over in 'Tec, we got to see this nice group shot in an otherwise not so good issue: 

cass and company.jpg

If I thought Tynion was a writer who utilized foreshadowing, I might assume this was hinting at Cass re-developing leadership skills.

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## Outside_85

> I don't see any significant similarities between Damian and Cass.


If you were to run comparisons through the spectrum of Batman, then:
-Cassandra is the ultra-cool Batman who barely speaks or moves, but served any criminal up with bacon if he gets within 20 feet of him.
-Damian is Batjerk, all the time. Very competent in everything he does and he will wipe your face in it to remind you.

There are ofc some similarities in their origins with all their murderous death cults and whatnot... but tbh if thats all it hinges on then you could say Talon and the Court of Owls are just reskins of Azarael and the Order of St. Dumas.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't see any significant similarities between Damian and Cass.


Backstory - raised by assassins to be the best killer in the world, joins the Batfamily and rejects their upbringing. Execution wise, you're right, they're very different.

----------


## Rac7d*

cass needs a new costume
And name

----------


## Caivu

> If I thought Tynion was a writer who utilized foreshadowing, I might assume this was hinting at Cass re-developing leadership skills.


He does indeed do that, so you may be in luck (even though that's not really what that scene is showing).

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## Assam

Regarding the Cass and Damian thing, Miller said it pretty well. Their backstories are similar no doubt, but their personalities are completely different, as are their stories, each of them having a very different take on  "redemption" and the themes their characters explore. 

Sadly, I'm pretty sure DC sees the biggest differences between them as "One is Batman's bio kid and is a boy" and as such is treated with more importance. 




> cass needs a new costume
> And name


Pray for Spring, friendo. 




> He does indeed do that, so you may be in luck (even though that's not really what that scene is showing).


That's just it though. This scene _isn't_ showing that. If it were, it'd be more up Tynion's alley. Less foreshadowing, more straight up telling the reader what's going to happen. In filmmaking (And presumably comic art)  shot composition is given thought. Things are often unintentional yes, but if you know what you're doing, there's meaning behind how things are presented. You don't put a character in the center of a frame during a dramatic moment if there's nothing significant about it. Like I said though, I don't think Tynion really thinks about that stuff, and just thought it'd be cool for Cass to be in the middle there.

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## adrikito

> cass and company.jpg
> 
> If I thought Tynion was a writer who utilized foreshadowing, I might assume this was hinting at Cass re-developing leadership skills.


LEADERSHIP SKILLS? Hmmm... If Emiko Queen can surprise Damian.. After see Cass skills, he will accept her as leader of any group without discussion.. The BETTER THAN BATMAN is not one Joke here..

*When everyone doubts... You can heard her voice... Encouraging the team to be brave ..*

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## TheCape

> But then again, Tom King is probably my favorite of the last three "big name" Batman title writers. Unless Scott Snyder had only written Black Mirror and Court of Owls (and actually ended the storyline, instead of the weak weird non-ending it got). But the five years he did on Batman just don't do it for me as a whole.


I said this before, but King's Batman in some ways remind me to the early 90s Batman under Dixon.

----------


## Assam

> *When everyone doubts... You can heard her voice... Encouraging the team to be brave ..*


Nice.  :Smile: 




> I said this before, but King's Batman in some ways remind me to the early 90s Batman under Dixon.


In what way? I don't think I've talked to you about this.

----------


## TheCape

> In what way? I don't think I've talked to you about this.


Stoic to the point that he feels kind of robotic, seemingly cold (even when he clearly cares), aware of his own mortality and interested in a possible sucessor (i think that the 90s and early 2000s was the time where Bruce was the most obsessed about it), with some demons that still tormented him, but not quite as sink on then as he was in the early 2000s. There are other aspects (his absurldily higth expectations for himself and how he prefer to keep the batfamily away from harm), but i think that those are part or you standard Batman at this point.

----------


## adrikito

> Nice. 
> .


hmmm... I wasn´t wrong... I choosed good words..

A good LEADER must know how to motivate the team.  :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Stoic to the point tha he feels kind of robotic, seemingly cold (even when he clearly cares), aware of his own mortality and interested in a possible sucessor (i think that the 90s and early 2000s was the time where Bruce was the most obsessed about it), with some demons that still tormented him, but not quite as sink on then as he was in the early 2000s). There are other aspects (his absurldy higth expectations for himself and how he prefer to keep the batfamily away from harm), but i think that those are part or you standard Batman at this point.


I tend to agree that King is much closer to Dixon than Snyder or Morrison were. He's definitely got his own style, but the sense that Batman is a hero, is damaged, but isn't insane, is capable of having stronger relationships with his family and desires that rather than is incapable of it (as Rucka would write him), is very, very human in his vulnerabilities (as opposed to Morrison's concept and Snyder's effective writing), and has a handle on his showmanship (as opposed to Snyder's Batman, who is a grandstander, whereas King and Dixon's Bruce is more just very dramatic). It's probably why I'm enjoying King so much more than Snyder or Morrison, now that I think about it. Not that it reminds me of Dixon so much that it is shooting for similar parts of Batman that I value the most.

----------


## TheCape

Well at one point King said that the Robin that he grew up with was Tim, so Dixon's Batman is probably his main inspiration and we are the 90s nostalgia period, wich make it themathically approtiate for the current time.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well at one point King said that the Robin that he grew up with was Tim, so Dixon's Batman is probably his main inspiration and we are the 90s nostalgia period, wich make it themathically approtiate for the current time.


I think King does have a liking for the Dixon era, but consciously, he always talks about Miller's Batman. Though King's Batman is much more interested in protection than Miller's who tends to be more interested in punishment/justice.

----------


## TheCape

> I think King does have a liking for the Dixon era, but consciously, he always talks about Miller's Batman. Though King's Batman is much more interested in protection than Miller's who tends to be more interested in punishment/justice.


Well Dixon's Batman is technically a continuation of Miller's version, so i guest that is a bit of boths.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well Dixon's Batman is technically a continuation of Miller's version, so i guest that is a bit of boths.


I mean, so is Morrison's from that perspective (and even Snyder's if you squint). I think what makes a difference is the source material. Miller and Dixon are writing Batman as inspired by the pulps of  the early 20th century. Morrison is writing stuff inspired by comics and drugs and philosophy (I think?). Snyder is writing things inspired by current events/fears and horror texts. King, like Morrison, is inspired by comics, and like Snyder, current events (his own life) - but somehow, it seems to work better for me than the other two.

----------


## Assam

So the more I think about it, the more it seems likely that Kate will be departing 'Tec with Basil after the next arc. And while one of those things would make me happy and the other sad, I realized that if this did happen, it would make Cass the only person who'd been on the team from the start. And with her arc coming right after, I could see that being pointed out.

Also, in regards to the potential for Tynion to grow Cass as a leader, Miller pointed out something kinda neat: Cass has been watching Kate 'wanting to learn as much as she can' from her. And since she obviously hasn't been trying to learn anything about combat, she must be studying just how she operates. 

Hell, just go back to the second issue with Kate's critique of Cass, telling her she's trying to fight everyone's battles for them. Now I still call BS on that scene in isolation, BUT, if it were to turn out that it were all part of a plan, and that she'll go from being on the one who wants to fight everyone's battles to the one who knows which tactic is best for everyone, that could be a good use of long form storytelling. 

Whether he knows it or not, Tynion's taken out the building blocks. We just don't know if he plans to use them.

----------


## Katana500

Yeah I could maybe see Kate leaving and possibly pulling some of the characters into a second team book with her. 

While Cass in a leadership role would be cool - I think I'd rather see her relationships explored with some other characters first.  Once Clayface leaves, I'd actually like to see her interact a bit with Luke. Cass isn't really a character who is particularly reliant on technology which kinda contrasts with Batwing who is probably one of the most technologically minded members of the Batfam.  I think it could be cool to see them interact and maybe learn from each other.

Also Assam  :Smile:  is the adoption a definite thing in Spring or is it just speculation? Just curious!

----------


## Assam

> Also Assam  is the adoption a definite thing in Spring or is it just speculation? Just curious!


Speculation. When asked about the rumors in an interview, Tynion said: 

"That was a very powerful moment in Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Because it happened after an era where Cassandra was already fading out of the universe it wasn’t explored. It was an acknowledgment to the fans of the importance of Cassandra while she was becoming less important. I don’t want to fall into that same trap. It is very important to me to establish firmly how important Bruce is to Cassandra and Cassandra is to Bruce. That is something I am very eager to explore upcoming this spring in particular in “Detective Comics”.

----------


## Katana500

> Speculation. When asked about the rumors in an interview, Tynion said: 
> 
> "That was a very powerful moment in Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Because it happened after an era where Cassandra was already fading out of the universe it wasn’t explored. It was an acknowledgment to the fans of the importance of Cassandra while she was becoming less important. I don’t want to fall into that same trap. It is very important to me to establish firmly how important Bruce is to Cassandra and Cassandra is to Bruce. That is something I am very eager to explore upcoming this spring in particular in “Detective Comics”.


They definitely need to continue to build up their relationship before any adoption. Since right now I feel Cass is closer to Clayface than Bruce which seems a wee bit wrong. Cant wait to see their relationship explored.

----------


## adrikito

> Speculation. When asked about the rumors in an interview, Tynion said: 
> 
> "That was a very powerful moment in Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Because it happened after an era where Cassandra was already fading out of the universe it wasn’t explored. It was an acknowledgment to the fans of the importance of Cassandra while she was becoming less important. I don’t want to fall into that same trap. It is very important to me to establish firmly how important Bruce is to Cassandra and Cassandra is to Bruce. That is something I am very eager to explore upcoming this spring in particular in “Detective Comics”.


INTERESTING.. They are in the SAME COMIC, we recovered stephxcass friendship, this is the next step. 

Attachment 57553

*Assam*, maybe this will the end of Orphan, change this for a better name, even the return of David Cain happens here, father(bruce) against father(david)..

----------


## Assam

Oh for the love of....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0dVicXTYFA

Watchmojo, this is why nobody likes you.

(Yes this is from months ago but I'm only finding it now)

----------


## millernumber1

> Oh for the love of....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0dVicXTYFA
> 
> Watchmojo, this is why nobody likes you.
> 
> (Yes this is from months ago but I'm only finding it now)


Wut.  Wow. That's terrible.

----------


## Assam

> Wut.  Wow. That's terrible.


I'm guessing it went something like this: People commented about her not being on lists like their Top 10 Comic Book Martial Artists or DC Heroines, someone looked her up for about 5 seconds, and thought from the costume and her parents she was an anti-hero...then again they also think Laura Kinney is an anti-hero so it's entirely possible they know nothing at all. 

At the very least, a quick scroll through these comments shows several people telling them they screwed up there. 

Also, *150 Pages*! Wooh!

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm guessing it went something like this: People commented about her not being on lists like their Top 10 Comic Book Martial Artists or DC Heroines, someone looked her up for about 5 seconds, and thought from the costume and her parents she was an anti-hero...then again they also think Laura Kinney is an anti-hero so it's entirely possible they know nothing at all. 
> 
> At the very least, a quick scroll through these comments shows several people telling them they screwed up there. 
> 
> Also, *150 Pages*! Wooh!


Woohoo! 

And yes, it's clear that they know nothing. Except how to make pretty and brainless videos.

----------


## adrikito

> Oh for the love of....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0dVicXTYFA
> 
> Watchmojo, this is why nobody likes you.
> 
> (Yes this is from months ago but I'm only finding it now)


I can understand Catwoman or Waller....... but Cass?  :Confused:   Cassandra Cain is a hero..  :Mad: 

She is not like these 2... Today you are his ally, tomorrow she is your enemy... She is in the good side and this can´t change..

This man see the character story like ¿2 minutes?...He talked a few seconds about her..  Assasins parents? the costume? with batman? Antihero.. .

----------


## adrikito

Nightwing Fan Film, you can see two young girls, training(they only appear in the begin and the end of this video, no more):




I think that we know who are these girls.. The blonde lose against her friend... This is familiar, no *Assam*?

3834564-cassandra+cain+2.jpg

----------


## Assam

Um...

Bombshells.jpg

UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! 

Well, Cass got to cameo in Bombshells! And using the Black Bat name? Odd. 

Still, cool first step. Now just to wait for her to make an actual appearance.

----------


## adrikito

> Um...
> 
> Bombshells.jpg
> 
> UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! 
> 
> Well, Cass got to cameo in Bombshells! And using the Black Bat name? Odd. 
> 
> Still, cool first step. Now just to wait for her to make an actual appearance.


GOOD.. GOOD.. Better than use Orphan..

This will be the next to Orphan.. Black Bat again..

----------


## millernumber1

> Um...
> 
> Bombshells.jpg
> 
> UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! 
> 
> Well, Cass got to cameo in Bombshells! And using the Black Bat name? Odd. 
> 
> Still, cool first step. Now just to wait for her to make an actual appearance.


Hmmm. Interesting.

----------


## Assam

> This will be the next to Orphan.. Black Bat again..


Those trademark issues still exist so I don't know what's going on. Plus, Tynion has said that he doesn't like the name. I don't think having the name here means anything. 




> Hmmm. Interesting.


The saddest part about this is that the simple but distinct black and yellow gi is still a better look than the Orphan suit. 

Also, once (if) she makes a full appearance, I'll be able to switch gears to asking "Where is Steph?" with you. :Wink:

----------


## millernumber1

> Those trademark issues still exist so I don't know what's going on. Plus, Tynion has said that he doesn't like the name. I don't think having the name here means anything. 
> 
> 
> 
> The saddest part about this is that the simple but distinct black and yellow gi is still a better look than the Orphan suit. 
> 
> Also, once (if) she makes a full appearance, I'll be able to switch gears to asking "Where is Steph?" with you.


It is a very nice look. At this point, I have given up all expectations from Bombshells, so I will thrill if Cass gets the attention she's deserved, but I don't have any real hope.

----------


## adrikito

> Tynion has said that he doesn't like the name. I don't think having the name here means anything.


...... I thought that heard Black Bat was a signal.. We hope that the new name, will be better than Orphan..

----------


## Assam

Soooooo, was going to express excitement and hope on Twitter...turns out I'm blocked by Bennett. And I have no idea why.  :Confused: 

Actually I do have an idea but I really hope it isn't true

----------


## adrikito

> Soooooo, was going to express excitement and hope on Twitter...turns out I'm blocked by Bennett. And I have no idea why. 
> 
> Actually I do have an idea but I really hope it isn't true


... During rebirth I heard(maybe here) that Rucka blocked many people... all the people that hate his run(everyone can´t applaud you) for this I never commented in his twitter.. 

Certain people is offended for nothing.. I doubt that your comment was enough reason for block you..

----------


## shadowsgirl

Sweet  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Deleted Post.

----------


## Frontier

> Um...
> 
> Attachment 57634
> 
> UMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! 
> 
> Well, Cass got to cameo in Bombshells! And using the Black Bat name? Odd. 
> 
> Still, cool first step. Now just to wait for her to make an actual appearance.


Her outfit's kind of on-the-nose, but neat  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Deleted my last post. Don't want to jump the gun, maybe allow myself to try and be optimistic for once in my life. We'll see what exactly is done with her hopefully starting next week.

----------


## Caivu

> Soooooo, was going to express excitement and hope on Twitter...turns out I'm blocked by Bennett. And I have no idea why. 
> 
> Actually I do have an idea but I really hope it isn't true


Probably a Blockchain thing. I'm blocked by Amy Chu and have never interacted with her nor said anything about her or her work.

----------


## shadowsgirl



----------


## Blight

Psu's at it again.

moresuperherokidstosellathousandkidsbooks.jpg

dcsuperherogirlsifpsugottowriteoneissue.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Psu's at it again.
> 
> moresuperherokidstosellathousandkidsbooks.jpg
> 
> dcsuperherogirlsifpsugottowriteoneissue.jpg


HAHAHAHA... I liked this.. Even Basil presence here..

----------


## adrikito

Cass with this Post-crisis costume and Damian..

cassandra cain damian wayne.jpg

----------


## Assam

> Psu's at it again.
> 
> moresuperherokidstosellathousandkidsbooks.jpg
> 
> dcsuperherogirlsifpsugottowriteoneissue.jpg


Yup, Psu's take on Cass in DC Superhero Girls. Pretty cute.

----------


## millernumber1

> Psu's at it again.
> 
> moresuperherokidstosellathousandkidsbooks.jpg
> 
> dcsuperherogirlsifpsugottowriteoneissue.jpg


The Clayface one is completely adorable!

----------


## Blight

> The Clayface one is completely adorable!


It's so adorable, I kind of want that in actual doll form now. The idea is just too good.

----------


## Assam

> It's so adorable, I kind of want that in actual doll form now. The idea is just too good.


Even the way they worded Cass's line is too cute. I'd definitely by one.

----------


## Assam

brown coat.jpg

I know it's Jason's jacket, but this makes me think of Cass being a browncoat and that is amazing.

----------


## Assam

So with the solicits for the issues coming after Fall of the Batmen coming in the next week, I wanted to share an idea I've had. I've been thinking of this since FotB was announced and I've only thought it more likely to happen the more time has passed. (I even saw the scene play out in a dream.) Basically, I'm thinking that at the end, Kate causes a tragedy to befall Basil, resulting in the latter unable to be on the team for whatever reason, and the former cut off from the rest of the BatFamily. It wouldn't stop there though. After going through so much crap over the past few in-universe months, Luke and JPV decide to take a break, going back to their civilian lives. Similarly, Tim and Steph decide they need time off as well (Tim in particular after spending months in solitary confinement) and head to college. One by one, they each leave the Belfry. The only one left, Bruce turns to Cass, but she's already gone. What I'm _thinking_ is that February would then have a two-parter only about Bruce and the effects all of this has had on him. And then at the end, Cass comes back, having only needed time to think things over, setting the board with just the two of them for the next arc. 

Very likely this idea will be jossed in a few days, but I think it'd be neat.

----------


## Assam

So I knew that Bendis had posted a picture of books he was using as "research." 

What I didn't know was that he posted a _second_  image with Cass trades. 

BENDIS.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> So I knew that Bendis had posted a picture of books he was using as "research." 
> 
> What I didn't know was that he posted a _second_  image with Cass trades. 
> 
> BENDIS.jpg


...And Manhunter as well.

----------


## Assam

> ...And Manhunter as well.


I take it you're a Kate Spencer fan?

----------


## Frontier

> I take it you're a Kate Spencer fan?


Well, she seems cool from what I've read of her in  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Well, she seems cool from what I've read of her in .


Ah. I haven't read too much of her so I'm pretty neutral.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, she seems cool from what I've read of her in .


Kate Spencer is great! I loved the Manhunter run. Still bummed that she hasn't really come back since the n52.

----------


## millernumber1

Also, the idea of Bendis doing a Manhunter run would be really interesting, though kind of rude to Andreyko, since he's still working for DC.

----------


## Assam

> Kate Spencer is great! I loved the Manhunter run. Still bummed that she hasn't really come back since the n52.


She's hanging around in Green Arrow right now, albeit only as Ollie's defense attorney currently.

----------


## millernumber1

> She's hanging around in Green Arrow right now, albeit only as Ollie's defense attorney currently.


Oh, I know (I check her Comic Vine page relatively frequently). She was "back" as the ADA or something in Gotham by Midnight, too. But it's not really her. Real Kate is supposed to be kicking butt in morally questionable ways as Manhunter!

----------


## Frontier

> Oh, I know (I check her Comic Vine page relatively frequently). She was "back" as the ADA or something in Gotham by Midnight, too. But it's not really her. Real Kate is supposed to be kicking butt in morally questionable ways as Manhunter!


I feel like she might get to that point in _Green Arrow_, though that's just my reading of things...

----------


## Assam

> I feel like she might get to that point in _Green Arrow_, though that's just my reading of things...


Same. Green Arrow has a pretty sizable supporting cast though so I wouldn't be surprised if Percy had a desire to spin Kate off back into her own book. (Also, while I already said I'm not exactly a fan, I AM glad she's still a single-mom. That's a really unique status for a hero and like with other heroes who lost their kids, it'd be lame to toss away.)

----------


## millernumber1

> I feel like she might get to that point in _Green Arrow_, though that's just my reading of things...


I hope so, but it's going super slowwwwwwww.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I hope so, but it's going super slowwwwwwww.


Doesn't help that the book is now a monthly. (Which I'm upset about for _several_ reasons)

----------


## Frontier

> I hope so, but it's going super slowwwwwwww.


Well, I've seen slower (just read _Action Comics_)  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## millernumber1

> Doesn't help that the book is now a monthly. (Which I'm upset about for _several_ reasons)


I like my twice a month Tec because I get more Steph, Cass, Tim, and the Batman I like. But I like my monthly Deathstroke, Birds of Prey, etc because not only is it a bit cheaper (though not on a per-page basis), but I also love getting my digital copies.




> Well, I've seen slower (just read _Action Comics_) .


But why would I do that?  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> But why would I do that?


I never said you would, but if you want a slow and decompressed comic, there you go  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## Assam

> I like my twice a month Tec because I get more Steph, Cass, Tim, and the Batman I like. But I like my monthly Deathstroke, Birds of Prey, etc because not only is it a bit cheaper (though not on a per-page basis), but I also love getting my digital copies.


I getcha. For me with GA, going down to a monthly just means less Emiko each month (And she's _easily_ my favorite of the main 3 characters in the book) and the longer I have to wait for Percy to follow up on Roy and Cheshire's encounter. 




> But why would I do that?


I'll be checking it out just for the Booster Gold arc, and that's only because he's my main man...okay that's not true but he's close!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> I getcha. For me with GA, going down to a monthly just means less Emiko each month (And she's _easily_ my favorite of the main 3 characters in the book) and the longer I have to wait for Percy to follow up on Roy and Cheshire's encounter.


I feel you. See also: my biggest complaint about Steph's current arc is because she only shows up every two to three months.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I feel you. See also: my biggest complaint about Steph's current arc is because she only shows up every two to three months.


See that's obviously a bother (And I totally understand that it's a much bigger problem for you) but as we've discussed before, I think the biggest problem with her storyline is that we're not really seeing a complete, fleshed out story. Just bits and pieces of one. We had a first act in Vicim Syndicate, we've gotten chunks of a second act since, and Fall of the Batmen will seemingly be serving as the third act...while also giving focus to Kate, Basil and Tim. And it's only 5 issues. I don't see this going well.

----------


## Aahz

It is probay better to continue here and not in the Damian Thread.



> This is a very isolated team in general, a major problem for the book. We bring up how the 'Tec team is kept separate from Dick, Damian and the like, but they're not even really all that connected with each other. The first issues of arcs are the only times we ever get anything resembling downtime. There are still several characters on this team who have never spoken a line of dialogue to one another.


I think another big problem with the TEC team is that since Steph left, they have no social character on the team. I think they need either her back, or need to bring in someone else (Bette, Barbara or Dick) who can fill that spot.

----------


## Assam

_Escorting the Princess of Darkness_, by Polmcarts

dick bats and cass.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> _Escorting the Princess of Darkness_, by Polmcarts
> 
> dick bats and cass.jpg


Awesome  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Cass on the cover of #975

detective975.jpg

----------


## Katana500

> Cass on the cover of #975
> 
> detective975.jpg


Wonder what role Cass will play in all the coming drama in TEC. I'm guessing whatever Batwoman does it annoys her too

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass on the cover of #975
> 
> detective975.jpg


Where was that posted?

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Where was that posted?


http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...1/20/dcfeb.htm

----------


## Assam

> Where was that posted?


http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stori...1/20/dcfeb.htm

----------


## Caivu

> Wonder what role Cass will play in all the coming drama in TEC. I'm guessing whatever Batwoman does it annoys her too


"Annoy" is probably too mild a word. Cass admires Kate, but if Kate ends up killing someone (as I'm expecting her to), Cass isn't going to take that well even if it's perfectly justified.

----------


## adrikito

> Cass on the cover of #975
> 
> detective975.jpg





> "Annoy" is probably too mild a word. Cass admires Kate, but if Kate ends up killing someone (as I'm expecting her to), Cass isn't going to take that well even if it's perfectly justified.



I think that Cass will be the reason that Kate will not lose the batsymbol even leaving the team for continue in BATWOMAN comic as if nothing changed..

----------


## Assam

> I think that Cass will be the reason that Kate will not lose the batsymbol even leaving the team..


Not sure why you think that. Basil or not, if Kate kills, no one is going to be more enraged at her than Cass.

----------


## adrikito

> Not sure why you think that. Basil or not, if Kate kills, no one is going to be more enraged at her than Cass.


In that case Cass will be dissapointed with her.. and we lose two members at once..

Are you mentioning what Steph and Anarky said in Tomorrow world? I remember something related with him...

----------


## shadowsgirl

I like Cass's part at 3:07 the most. It's looks pretty stunning.

----------


## Assam

Welp, today's 'Tec sucked and it was yet another issue with pretty much no Cass. ( I ranted about specifics on the 'Tec thread) _Sigh._  Here's some cool new art though: 

By toodledeedoo: 

batarang.jpg

By movin-to-the-grootin 

batsibs.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Welp, today's 'Tec sucked and it was yet another issue with pretty much no Cass. ( I ranted about specifics on the 'Tec thread) _Sigh._  Here's some cool new art though: 
> 
> By toodledeedoo: 
> 
> batarang.jpg
> 
> By movin-to-the-grootin 
> 
> batsibs.jpg


GOOD IMAGES..

In the second they look like the GINYU FORCES..

----------


## TheCape

129aa5514ac238d7438c9ded71779886.jpg
What Assam wanted before the reboot?  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> 129aa5514ac238d7438c9ded71779886.jpg
> What Assam wanted before the reboot?


Am I just a punchline at this point?  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Also yes. (Although giant Bruce there is terrifying)

----------


## adrikito

> 129aa5514ac238d7438c9ded71779886.jpg
> What Assam wanted before the reboot?


Cass family is growing here.

----------


## Assam

Cool recent pic/cosplay by Spacecatsenpai: 

big batgirl little batgirl.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Cool recent pic/cosplay by Spacecatsenpai: 
> 
> big batgirl little batgirl.jpg


That looks cooler then the actual Orphan costume  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> Cool recent pic/cosplay by Spacecatsenpai: 
> 
> big batgirl little batgirl.jpg


I liked the cosplay..

----------


## Assam

> That looks cooler then the actual Orphan costume .


I've seen maybe one person actually do a straight 'Orphan' cosplay. I think nearly everyone knows it sucks so they mix other elements into it, most usually taking inspiration from the Black Bat suit or TSBranch's redesign.

----------


## adrikito

Stephanie and Cassandra 
Photo taken by Damian


Attachment 58325

Unfortunatelly, we can see the faces of these girls..

----------


## Assam

I just can't get it out of my mind that Bendis had Cass trades in his "DC Homework". But this is something I noticed when I saw it but didn't think of what it meant: They were the old trades. Old, _out of print_ trades. If plans were being made to put him on 'Tec after Tynion or something (He did have LOTS of Batman trades, some material Tim was in and besides Gotham Central, Animal Man and Manhunter, Kate was the only other NOT A-list property in his stacks) and they wanted him to know the characters, wouldn't they have given him the NEW Cass trades? There _are_ other explanations obviously, but it seems to me that they may have been ones he already owned. Meaning he's a _fan._ Again, plenty of other explanations I know, and if it is true, I know there's plenty of hesitance (from myself as well) about the idea of him writing her...but having someone like him in her corner would still be a HUGE win.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just can't get it out of my mind that Bendis had Cass trades in his "DC Homework". But this is something I noticed when I saw it but didn't think of what it meant: They were the old trades. Old, _out of print_ trades. If plans were being made to put him on 'Tec after Tynion or something (He did have LOTS of Batman trades, some material Tim was in and besides Gotham Central and Manhunter, Kate was the only other NOT A-list property in his stacks) and they wanted him to know the characters, wouldn't they have given him the NEW Cass trades? There _are_ other explanations obviously, but it seems to me that they may have been ones he already owned. Meaning he's a _fan._ Again, plenty of other explanations I know, and if it is true, I know there's plenty of hesitance (from myself as well) about the idea of him writing her...but having someone like him in her corner would still be a HUGE win.


That is a very good point.

----------


## Assam

From NYCC this year (I think I actually saw this Black Bat around) 

cass diana.jpg

----------


## Assam

More cosplay goodness by Spitfire Cosplay

bat grounded.jpg

As others have pointed out, it looks like she's about to be grounded.  :Wink:

----------


## adrikito

You are not MY FIRST STUDENT

cassandra cain drake.jpg

----------


## Assam

batman ninja.jpg

F**k this movie and its sexist crap.

----------


## Barbatos666

Its got Catwoman, Ivy and Harley, hardly sexist.

----------


## Assam

> Its got Catwoman, Ivy and Harley, hardly sexist.


A love interest and villains. And of course, continuing to purport that the male Robins are the only kids Bruce has.

----------


## Barbatos666

Yeah but they're females right? As for kids there are hordes of them in the mythos. I cant really hold it against them for using a select few in a story about Batman primarily.

----------


## Assam

> As for kids there are hordes of them in the mythos.


Plenty of kids in the mythos? Yeah. But _Bruce_ only has 5 kids.




> I cant really hold it against them for using a select few in a story about Batman primarily.


"A select few" AKA the male Robins. 

I wouldn't be as mad as I am if Cass were ever allowed to appear in _anything._

----------


## Barbatos666

Well I guess that's one way of looking at it. I'm looking at all the characters involved instead of fixating on just the Robins. Though Cassandra's exclusion is admittedly surprising.

----------


## Assam

> Though Cassandra's exclusion is admittedly surprising.


On the one hand, you'd think if anything would include her, it'd be Batman _Ninja!_. On the other hand, she's never been included in anything (significant) before so it's not surprising. 

It used to just be a constant bother, but after the crushing disappointment of YJ season 3, any Batman media that includes members of the Family but not her get nothing but my bile.

----------


## Aioros22

Gotta say, while I love the trailer and I love the Joker and Jason design and I`m a happy pup that he`s in it, I find it extremey weird an awkward that a character like Cass which is tailor made for this sort of release isn`t in it.

----------


## Assam

> Gotta say, while I love the trailer and I love the Joker and Jason design and I`m a happy pup that he`s in it, I find it extremey weird an awkward that a character like Cass which is tailor made for this sort of release isn`t in it.


Her being the closest thing to an actual ninja is the only reason why I allowed myself to have even a small amount of hope. 

Bloody Hell, even Tynion has acknowledged this in-universe:

The ninja.jpg

----------


## Aioros22

I just find it awkard that with the creative pool they got, nobody said "hey, what about the asian chick who already resembles a ninja and is among the best figthers of the franchise?" Make her someone Joker steals away and mindcontrols to his side in Jedi fashion until she breaks out of it or something.

----------


## Frontier

I imagine part of the reason why they didn't include Cass is because she's not that well-known outside comics, so the filmmakers might not have even known about her.

----------


## Assam

> I imagine part of the reason why they didn't include Cass is because she's not that well-known outside comics


And it's almost like including her in _something_ would be a way to change this.

(Apologies if I'm coming off as rude. Just obviously frustrated)

----------


## Frontier

> And it's almost like including her in _something_ would be a way to change this.
> 
> (Apologies if I'm coming off as rude. Just obviously frustrated)


I completely understand, I'm just not surprised she isn't in it while the usual suspects are.

----------


## godisawesome

Cass seems stuck in a cycle now:

People who are passionate about the BatFamily in other media don't know about Cass because she doesn't have much media exposure outside of a cameo in a forgotten video game and an Easter Egg in the DCAU's Justice League,

And...

...Cass doesn't have much media exposure outside of a cameo in a forgotten video game and an Easter Egg in the DCAU's Justice League because people who are passionate about the Batfamily don't know about Cass.

----------


## Aioros22

Wait, what`s the easter egg in JL?

----------


## godisawesome

The Savage Time.

When the League hooks up with alternate timeline Batman and meets his army, you see two kids run by. One is Tim Drake from BTNAS, and the other was confirmed to be Cass by the creators, albeit only as a reference.

----------


## Aioros22

Ah, that "Tim"  :Wink:  ? 

I really gotta see the movie. I`ve been reading about a Catwoman reference in the movie as well.

----------


## Assam

> Cass seems stuck in a cycle now:
> 
> People who are passionate about the BatFamily in other media don't know about Cass because she doesn't have much media exposure outside of a cameo in a forgotten video game and an Easter Egg in the DCAU's Justice League,
> 
> And...
> 
> ...Cass doesn't have much media exposure outside of a cameo in a forgotten video game and an Easter Egg in the DCAU's Justice League because people who are passionate about the Batfamily don't know about Cass.


And every tine the rare opportunity arises where the cycle COULD be broken, it doesn't happen. 

No Man's Land adaptation? Deemed too dark. 
Beware the Batman? Babs was Oracle and Shiva was around, but she never appeared. 
YJS3? Heavy fan petitioning (from what I saw Cass, Steph, Jason and the Wolfman Titans were the most requested characters), but despite even Steph finally getting something, no dice. 

Coupled with the poor treatment in the comics and it's just so tiring and aggravating. As I've said before, basically turning me off from every other aspect of this franchise.

----------


## El_Gato

I'm getting sick and tired of DC ignoring Cass in all outside media appearances! She's a part of the Batfamily, yet never gets any exposure! Doesn't make sense, especially when you consider Cass is the only non-White member (outside of new creations like Duke and fake Batwing) and DC has made a big deal about being diverse.

----------


## godisawesome

Not to give you false hope, but if I remember correctly, Weismann was asked whether they had any plans for Steph and Cass, said he wasn't aware enough of the characters to integrate them...

...Then Season 2 suddenly had Steph show up, and she's now going to be a featured character in Season 3. 

It's most likely not the case, but never underestimate Greg Weismann's ability to sniff out forgotten-but-cool characters. The guy made Molten Man a key part of Spectacular Spider-man's second finale.

----------


## Assam

> I'm getting sick and tired of DC ignoring Cass in all outside media appearances! She's a part of the Batfamily, yet never gets any exposure! Doesn't make sense, especially when you consider Cass is the only non-White member (outside of new creations like Duke and fake Batwing) *and DC has made a big deal about being diverse*.


Yup, we've been over this plenty. DC is happy to keep their 'token' characters and push their doomed to fail 'New Age of Heroes', but keep their most successful POC character of all time in background roles/non-existence in the comics and don't have them appear at all in outside media. Hell, she's a neurodivergent, mentally disabled, potentially LGBT woman of color. You'd _think_ a company trying to promote diversity would capitalize on that. 

Also, 




> and fake Batwing


I take it you're a David Zavimbe fan?

----------


## Assam

> Not to give you false hope, but if I remember correctly, Weismann was asked whether they had any plans for Steph and Cass, said he wasn't aware enough of the characters to integrate them...
> 
> ...Then Season 2 suddenly had Steph show up, and she's now going to be a featured character in Season 3. 
> *
> It's most likely not the case, but never underestimate Greg Weismann's ability to sniff out forgotten-but-cool characters.* The guy made Molten Man a key part of Spectacular Spider-man's second finale.


I remember reading somewhere that Weismann was a regular reader of Rebirth Detective Comics.

----------


## El_Gato

> I take it you're a David Zavimbe fan?


I hate how DC mistreated this character! He was a chance to establish a big hero outside the USA and they blew it! David is the real Batwing imo! So much lost potential!

----------


## Assam

> I hate how DC mistreated this character! He was a chance to establish a big hero outside the USA and they blew it! David is the real Batwing imo! So much lost potential!


I've never read his book, but he and his fans definitely have my sympathy. Especially the way his supporting cast was treated and how Luke was introduced as being Bruce's first pick all along. Like, did they _really_ think that was the best way to keep readers around?! 

I admit, I like Luke in 'Tec, but it's still pretty f**ked up. And David is probably in the group of BatFam who are stuck in perma-limbo alongside Orpheus, Onyx, Michael Lane and oh my look at that disturbing pattern. Yes, there's also Sasha, but then again, Renee's not in limbo but she's also lost any significance. 

I'm reminded of this Community inspired post from a few years ago:

http://incorrectbatmanquotes.tumblr....-cain-shell-be

And honestly, considering how much they're pushing Duke and how even Tynion doesn't have much for Luke to do besides being JPV's BFF I ship it, I wouldn't be surprised if he too ended up in limbo.

----------


## Frontier

> I remember reading somewhere that Weismann was a regular reader of Rebirth Detective Comics.


I know he read some Rebirth books for research prior to starting on season 3.

----------


## godisawesome

> I've never read his book, but he and his fans definitely have my sympathy. Especially the way his supporting cast was treated and how Luke was introduced as being Bruce's first pick all along. Like, did they _really_ think that was the best way to keep readers around?! 
> 
> I admit, I like Luke in 'Tec, but it's still pretty f**ked up. And David is probably in the group of BatFam who are stuck in perma-limbo alongside Orpheus, Onyx, Michael Lane and oh my look at that disturbing pattern. Yes, there's also Sasha, but then again, Renee's not in limbo but she's also lost any significance. 
> 
> I'm reminded of this Community inspired post from a few years ago:
> 
> http://incorrectbatmanquotes.tumblr....-cain-shell-be
> 
> And honestly, considering how much they're pushing Duke and how even Tynion doesn't have much for Luke to do besides being JPV's BFF I ship it, I wouldn't be surprised if he too ended up in limbo.


David and Cass both illustrate probably the biggest issue with minority books in the New 52; they were viewed almost totally as marketing properties, and evaluated as such, instead of viewed in a literary style. A fan, a writer, and an artist look at these characters and see _characters_; somebody fun to put in weird situations and conflicts and figure out how they react, or sometime to flesh out and define. The marketing group looks at them and sees a mandatory demographic to target (David), and a threat to another demographic's chosen targeted book (Cass). It's a similar problem to the one Marvel had in the 90's (not that surprising, considering the New 52's layout), where characters are viewed minus their characteristics. They're seen strictly as properties.

It was arguably worse with Cass and David, though, thanks to the political subtext, intentional or not, of the move.

----------


## Rac7d*

They need to kill Orphan it has no brand Power and Never will
Bring back Black Bat

Ni Birds of prey and reboot it
Girls of Gotham
Stephanie and Cass + guests( Nobody, red arrow, raven, Rose Wilson, R-Iko Blue Bird Tiffany)
Be mentored by Batgirl Black Canary Huntress Catwoman

and of course Harley Ivy Batwoman and other femals will show up

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> No Man's Land adaptation? Deemed too dark. 
> Beware the Batman? Babs was Oracle and Shiva was around, but she never appeared.


I would imagine there would've been a strong chance Cass would've made it to _Beware the Batman_ had the show gone on beyond one season. Remember that the producers of _Beware_ also pitched the No Man's Land show that had Cass as one of the main team members, so they clearly had interest in using her. 




> I remember reading somewhere that Weismann was a regular reader of Rebirth Detective Comics.


I just hope he ditches the Orphan nickname. It's awful. If Barbara is Oracle in _YJ_, it'll be a perfect opportunity, since Steph is Spoiler in that universe.

----------


## Katana500

Im pretty sure Cass's time will eventually come and she will get an animated adaption. Im not sure when but If I had to bet on it, I think one day someone will use her.

----------


## Aioros22

> They need to kill Orphan it has no brand Power and Never will
> Bring back Black Bat
> 
> Ni Birds of prey and reboot it
> Girls of Gotham
> Stephanie and Cass + guests( Nobody, red arrow, raven, Rose Wilson, R-Iko Blue Bird Tiffany)
> Be mentored by Batgirl Black Canary Huntress Catwoman
> 
> and of course Harley Ivy Batwoman and other femals will show up


I know I keep hitting the same keyboard over but "Black Bat" is not Cass. Black Bat is a Pulp hero character who Batman may have taken liberties from, even, that is being currently published by Dinamyte. 

Sorry being this anal about Pulp properties, but they`ve been "borrowed" to Comics enough.

----------


## Aioros22

Incidently, while not as charming as Black Bat, "Orphan" hasn`t been tested at all to tell whether it got any brand power. Place her in YJ and then you can gauge reception to the name.

----------


## Assam

> David and Cass both illustrate probably the biggest issue with minority books in the New 52; they were viewed almost totally as marketing properties, and evaluated as such, instead of viewed in a literary style. A fan, a writer, and an artist look at these characters and see _characters_; somebody fun to put in weird situations and conflicts and figure out how they react, or sometime to flesh out and define. The marketing group looks at them and sees a mandatory demographic to target (David), and a threat to another demographic's chosen targeted book (Cass). It's a similar problem to the one Marvel had in the 90's (not that surprising, considering the New 52's layout), where characters are viewed minus their characteristics. They're seen strictly as properties.
> 
> It was arguably worse with Cass and David, though, thanks to the political subtext, intentional or not, of the move.


All very good points. It's just one of the many examples of why I scoff at anyone who tries to say that DC knows what it's doing from a business perspective. 




> I just hope he ditches the Orphan nickname. It's awful. If Barbara is Oracle in _YJ_, it'll be a perfect opportunity, since Steph is Spoiler in that universe.


My thoughts the day we saw the character reveals was that Steph was Spoiler, but Babs was no where to be seen and still hasn't been. For awhile I was optimistic, even having a dream of a trailer that ends with seeing Babs as Oracle deploying a suited up Cass, but as time's passed, my hope has died down. 




> Im pretty sure Cass's time will eventually come and she will get an animated adaption. Im not sure when but If I had to bet on it, I think one day someone will use her.


Right now, there are three unlikely cards on the table that I see, none having as close to a chance of happening as Cass in YJS3. 

1. What I imagined above, Cass IS going to be in YJS3 and they're just saving her as a surprise. 
2. Young Justice gets a 4th season and Cass is in that. I actually think this is the least likely, but this and option 1 are the only things that could get me to watch YJS3. 
3. With Kate still getting pushed by DC and her already established in their animated universe, they decide to do a loose adaptation of Rise of the Batmen. 




> I know I keep hitting the same keyboard over but "Black Bat" is not Cass. Black Bat is a Pulp hero character who Batman may have taken liberties from, even, that is being currently published by Dinamyte. 
> 
> Sorry being this anal about Pulp properties, but they`ve been "borrowed" to Comics enough.


The funny thing is that Morrison probably wasn't even thinking of that when he gave it to her. Lover of callbacks that he is, he was almost certainly referencing the time she was called Black Bat as a nickname in her solo. 

Had Morrison not gotten dibs, I do wonder what codename Simone had planed to give her. 




> Incidently, while not as charming as Black Bat, "Orphan" hasn`t been tested at all to tell whether it got any brand power. Place her in YJ and then you can gauge reception to the name.


I'd personally be happy to see both names forgotten. With Black Bat, while it was used in two good stories, I dislike it partially for just not being a very unique name, partially because it's a reminder of Cass's mistreatment and partially because of how many Steph fans (others as well) often list of "Cass was Black Bat" or something along those lines when describing how the Pre-FP BatFamily was "Perfect", and that obviously rubs me the wrong way. Digged the way To drew the costume though. (Still confused by how Bennett is allowed to use the Black Bat name in Bombshells) 

And for Orphan, I think the response from fans is a pretty good indicator of how bad  a name it is. Most people I've seen who don't know the character mock it and think it's dumb, although a small handful I've seen have said it's not awful and I've seen exactly _two_ comments praising it. And fans who do know the character mock it, think it's dumb AND know how it isn't a representation of Cass at all. Not sure if you've seen on that last point, but there have actually been a couple essays written about why the name doesn't work. Joseph P. Illidge, editor of the Bat books during Cass's creation who assisted in her creation, decried the name as soon as it was announced. 

What I'm saying is that there's a reason Tynion has had to try and defend the name on Twitter multiple times  and why we basically have confirmation that there's gonna be a name change soon. Hoping for the Spring arc!

----------


## Cmbmool

> I'm getting sick and tired of DC ignoring Cass in all outside media appearances! She's a part of the Batfamily, yet never gets any exposure! Doesn't make sense, especially when you consider Cass is the only non-White member (outside of new creations like Duke and fake Batwing) and DC has made a big deal about being diverse.


Well said and it makes no excuse for DC to ignore her and push Duke into the spotlight.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well said and it makes no excuse for DC to ignore her and push Duke into the spotlight.


Has Duke been put in media appearances and adaptions outside of the comics? Was he in a video game or something? Maybe I forgot.

Isn't Cass in the cartoons? I'm so confused as to what people are upset about  :Frown: 

And I'm not trying to be funny, I just not familiar with the character so I am wondering what is going on.

----------


## Assam

> Has Duke been put in media appearances and adaptions outside of the comics? From what I've seen, he is only in the comics, just like Cass.


He's also only existed since 2013, and only existed in the way we know him now since 2015, whereas Cass has been around since 1999. 

And as far as the comics go, yes, he's been getting much more of a push than her (pretty much everyone in the Batverse other than Azrael has) Duke's getting a mini, which, because of Batman's name in the title and Snyder's name on the cover will inevitably sell well and lead into a failure of an ongoing for him, he's appeared throughout King's run, both on his own and in BatFamily moments, his suit is in the BatCave in Beyond, he played a major role in the Dark Days issues, etc. 

There's no comparison

----------


## WontonGirl

> He's also only existed since 2013, and only existed in the way we know him now since 2015, whereas Cass has been around since 1999. 
> 
> And as far as the comics go, yes, he's been getting much more of a push than her (pretty much everyone in the Batverse other than Azrael has) Duke's getting a mini, which, because of Batman's name in the title and Snyder's name on the cover will inevitably sell well and lead into a failure of an ongoing for him, he's appeared throughout King's run, both on his own and in BatFamily moments, his suit is in the BatCave in Beyond, he played a major role in the Dark Days issues, etc. 
> 
> There's no comparison


So if Cass has been around since 1999, how come she is not more well known? That's a long time.

I mean, that's Pre-HUSH. And she wasn't in HUSH. And almost everybody was in HUSH, LOL

----------


## millernumber1

> So if Cass has been around since 1999, how come she is not more well known? That's a long time.
> 
> I mean, that's Pre-HUSH. And she wasn't in HUSH. And almost everybody was in HUSH, LOL


I'm sure Assam will give you the page-long version, but the short thing of it is: Cass wasn't in Hush, and soon after Hush she was turned evil, because people very high up in DC editorial dislike the character. Which also explains why she's not in other things - editorial made it hard and never suggested she be used for any other media.

----------


## Assam

> So if Cass has been around since 1999, how come she is not more well known? That's a long time.


Here's a three-part explanation written by the CBR user Blight: 

http://zechsatron.tumblr.com/post/11...ra-cain-part-1

http://zechsatron.tumblr.com/post/11...ra-cain-part-2

http://zechsatron.tumblr.com/post/11...ra-cain-part-3

There's one thing they don't mention there reason why Cass wasn't in Hush. Which is...




> I mean, that's Pre-HUSH. And she wasn't in HUSH. And almost everybody was in HUSH, LOL


Jim Lee didn't like drawing her. That's why she didn't get to be in the biggest story of that era.

----------


## Assam

> I'm sure Assam will give you the page-long version.


I just went with Blight's essays because I'm _tired_ of having to explain this decade+ long tragedy. So very, very tied.  :Frown:

----------


## WontonGirl

> I'm sure Assam will give you the page-long version, but the short thing of it is: Cass wasn't in Hush, and soon after Hush she was turned evil, because people very high up in DC editorial dislike the character. Which also explains why she's not in other things - editorial made it hard and never suggested she be used for any other media.


Damn that's rough! Who created her? 

And yes, I know she wasn't in HUSH. But her Mother was in HUSH! I just realized that.

----------


## WontonGirl

> I just went with Blight's essays because I'm _tired_ of having to explain this decade+ long tragedy. So very, very tied.


I'll read these and the Batgirl stories. 

Thanks!

----------


## Assam

> Damn that's rough! Who created her?


Kelley Puckett and Damion Scott, who also did the first run (#1-#37) of her book.

----------


## millernumber1

> I just went with Blight's essays because I'm _tired_ of having to explain this decade+ long tragedy. So very, very tied.


Yup. Good call. Those essays are gold.




> Damn that's rough! Who created her? 
> 
> And yes, I know she wasn't in HUSH.


Scott Peterson created her (he was mostly an editor, but wrote a couple fill-in issues) - was one of O'Neil's proteges. Kelly Puckett and Damion Scott did the art and writing for her first appearances, so they're sort of co-creators (I mean, they defined the character, so I'd say they deserve the credit).

----------


## WontonGirl

> Yup. Good call. Those essays are gold.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Peterson created her (he was mostly an editor, but wrote a couple fill-in issues) - was one of O'Neil's proteges. Kelly Puckett and Damion Scott did the art and writing for her first appearances, so they're sort of co-creators (I mean, they defined the character, so I'd say they deserve the credit).


Yeah I just edited my post about how I realized her own Mother was in HUSH but not her. Lady Shiva is her Mother right?

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah I just edited my post about how I realized her own Mother was in HUSH but not her. Lady Shiva is her Mother right?


Yes, but that hadn't been determined yet, as far as I know. It was revealed in late 2005 in the Batgirl title.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Yes, but that hadn't been determined yet, as far as I know. It was revealed in late 2005 in the Batgirl title.


Oh, okay I see.

----------


## Assam

> Scott Peterson created her (he was mostly an editor, but wrote a couple fill-in issues) - was one of O'Neil's proteges. Kelly Puckett and Damion Scott did the art and writing for her first appearances, so they're sort of co-creators (I mean, they defined the character, so I'd say they deserve the credit).


If we're counting editors, I'd say Joseph P. Illidge deserves some credit as well. 

Unrelated, but he's still a fan. Saw this a few months ago: https://twitter.com/JosephPIllidge/s...31806591815680




> Yes, but that hadn't been determined yet, as far as I know. It was revealed in late 2005 in the Batgirl title.


Yup. It was very much a retcon.

----------


## Carabas

> Jim Lee didn't like drawing her. That's why she didn't get to be in the biggest story of that era.


Or she was too recent to be part of Loeb's nostalgia, which is what a good 90% of Loeb's stories are made up off. They can resemble 'clip shows' made up from older and better comics.

----------


## Carabas

> Yup. It was very much a retcon.


I'm not sure it was a retcon as opposed to information that was part of the character's creation but not yet reveiled to the reader.

----------


## millernumber1

> If we're counting editors, I'd say Joseph P. Illidge deserves some credit as well.


I'm going off of this post: http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/...secretoriginbg

I don't think Illidge had anything to do with the creation, though he did edit her several times.




> Or she was too recent to be part of Loeb's nostalgia, which is what a good 90% of Loeb's stories are made up off. They can resemble 'clip shows' made up from older and better comics.


Really nice description, except also "Really pretty art."  :Smile: 




> I'm not sure it was a retcon as opposed to information that was part of the character's creation but not yet reveiled to the reader.


Have Peterson or Puckett said that Shiva was part of their intention?

----------


## Assam

> Have Peterson or Puckett said that Shiva was part of their intention?


Not to my knowledge. If I ever get the chance to talk to Scott at a con, I'll remember to ask about this.

----------


## WontonGirl

> Or she was too recent to be part of Loeb's nostalgia, which is what a good 90% of Loeb's stories are made up off. They can resemble 'clip shows' made up from older and better comics.


This! Loeb was part of a different group of writers so the people in HUSH, yeah they were part of the old school. I mean, he was part of the _Barbara Gordon is the real Batgirl and now she is Oracle_ group. In his mind, if Babs ain't Batgirl, then there is no Batgirl, LOL! 

I mean he was this way in Smallville too in the first few seasons.

----------


## Carabas

> This! Loeb was part of a different group of writers so the people in HUSH, yeah they were part of the old school. I mean, he was part of the _Barbara Gordon is the real Batgirl and now she is Oracle_ group. In his mind, if Babs ain't Batgirl, then there is no Batgirl, LOL!


That is not what I meant.

More like she's too recent for him to even know who she is.

----------


## WontonGirl

> That is not what I meant.
> 
> More like she's too recent for him to even know who she is.


I see. Well then I guess that goes into who was writing her at the time that she wasn't on his radar in 3 years. Because HUSH was 2002? Because I'm sure he knew of the Batgirl character.

----------


## Cmbmool

Is it said that as Batman is getting an Anime movie: Cassandra Cain Batgirl is no where in sight of this film ?  :Frown:

----------


## MajorHoy

> Is it said that as Batman is getting an Anime movie: Cassandra Cain Batgirl is no where in sight of this film?


She wasn't in the *Beware the Batman* animated series, was she?



Instead, they went with a very highly re-imagined version of Katana.

----------


## Blight

> I just went with Blight's essays because I'm _tired_ of having to explain this decade+ long tragedy. So very, very tied.


Why I wrote them. Just to basically note the actual history. Because this sort of history shouldn't kind be forgotten. Loeb's nostigia is also a factor (the focus on Killing Joke with Barbara, "Barbara" being the Batgirl in B&S Supergirl issue. But the "official" reason was that Lee wasn't fond of drawing her. Really the only time Loeb wrote Cass was when the entire Bat and Superman Family (at that time) jobbed to Lex in the intro arc. Which ironically, was the basis for one of her action figures in the Justice League line from DC "Collectibles" (I forgot what they were called back then).

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> She wasn't in the *Beware the Batman* animated series, was she?
> 
> Instead, they went with a very highly re-imagined version of Katana.


No, she wasn't, but her mother is. 

I don't get why people suggest Katana "replaced" Cass in that series. She had a very different role, personality, character arc, background, and age. They're not interchangeable.

----------


## Carabas

> I see. Well then I guess that goes into who was writing her at the time that she wasn't on his radar in 3 years. Because HUSH was 2002? Because I'm sure he knew of the Batgirl character.


Maybe she just wasn't compatible with his 'give everybody huge chunks of internal monologue' writing style...

----------


## MajorHoy

> I don't get why people suggest Katana "replaced" Cass in that series. She had a very different role, personality, character arc, background, and age. They're not interchangeable.


I'm not saying Katana "replaced" Cass outright.
But the version of Katana they wound up with for that series wasn't really like the comic book version of Tatsu (at least not how I remembered her) and perhaps would have been closer to Cass than Katana.

----------


## Barbatos666

According to King Cassandra was omitted from the gathering in the annual for a reason.

----------


## millernumber1

> According to King Cassandra was omitted from the gathering in the annual for a reason.


Oooh, source?

----------


## Assam

> According to King Cassandra was omitted from the gathering in the annual for a reason.


I swear to f**king God, King...




> Oooh, source?


Yeah, I'm not seeing anything about it on Twitter.

----------


## Frontier

> According to King Cassandra was omitted from the gathering in the annual for a reason.


Hmm. If it's accurate, I wonder what the reason was?

----------


## Caivu

> Oooh, source?


He was on a recent episode of Gotham by Geeks, so probably that. I'm listening around it right now.

----------


## Assam

> He was on a recent episode of Gotham by Geeks, so probably that. I'm listening around it right now.


Be sure to let us know if that's it please.  :Smile:

----------


## WontonGirl

> According to King Cassandra was omitted from the gathering in the annual for a reason.


What is the source of that?

----------


## WontonGirl

> He was on a recent episode of Gotham by Geeks, so probably that. I'm listening around it right now.


I'm going to listen to the podcast now, thanks!

----------


## millernumber1

> Be sure to let us know if that's it please.


Seconded! Give us the deets!

----------


## Caivu

> Seconded! Give us the deets!


Starts at 41 minutes in:

http://https://taylornetworkofpodcas...p-72-tom-king/

All he says about Cass is at 42:12: "Cassandra is missing for a reason."

----------


## millernumber1

> Starts at 41 minutes in:
> 
> http://https://taylornetworkofpodcas...p-72-tom-king/
> 
> All he says about Cass is at 42:12: "Cassandra is missing for a reason."


Haha, 3 minutes behind, at 38 min now.  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

> All he says about Cass is at 42:12: "Cassandra is missing for a reason."


Thank you, Caivu




> I swear to f**king God, King...

----------


## WontonGirl

I wonder why Cass is missing?

----------


## millernumber1

> I wonder why Cass is missing?


That is the QUESTION!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> That is the QUESTION!


Well, Cass's last appearance in her solo book DID have her wearing a trench coat.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## WontonGirl

> Well, Cass's last appearance in her solo book DID have her wearing a trench coat.


Meaning what? Sorry, I don't know the reference.

----------


## Assam

> Meaning what? Sorry, I don't know the reference.


The Question AKA Vic Sage or Renee Montoya, is a hero in the DCU who wears a trenchcoat.

Twas a joke

----------


## millernumber1

> Well, Cass's last appearance in her solo book DID have her wearing a trench coat.


Ooh, I didn't even think of that. I'd be totally down with a Cass Question!

----------


## GamerSlyRatchet

> I'm not saying Katana "replaced" Cass outright.
> But the version of Katana they wound up with for that series wasn't really like the comic book version of Tatsu (at least not how I remembered her) and perhaps would have been closer to Cass than Katana.


If anything, Tatsu in the show was closer to a grown-up Dick, specifically Nightwing, and even then, that's stretching it. 

I think Cass would've been a perfect fit, though, since Barbara was already Oracle and they already introduced Shiva, albeit they forgot about her after Ra's was defeated. The show was already about doing things differently from the norm, and there was already interest about using Cass in a previous pitch. She even has a history with the Outsiders in the comics, which were essentially formed by the end of the series.

----------


## Caivu

> Ooh, I didn't even think of that. I'd be totally down with a Cass Question!


Her mask is already similar.

----------


## millernumber1

> Her mask is already similar.


Oh, man. If this is the way it's going to go, I am so down!

----------


## Katana500

Assam! I was listening to a podcast and Tom King said Cassandra was missing from the family photo in the annual for a reason! I wonder what that could be!

----------


## millernumber1

> Assam! I was listening to a podcast and Tom King said Cassandra was missing from the family photo in the annual for a reason! I wonder what that could be!


Oh, man. All of us just got done listening to the same podcast, apparently!  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

Someone is protecting the city with everyone being there. She became the Bat. I am sticking with this theory and no one is going to deny me this theory until King stamps it out.

----------


## RedBird

> Someone is protecting the city with everyone being there. She became the Bat. I am sticking with this theory and no one is going to deny me this theory until King stamps it out.


Yes yes yes. Theory accepted.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Assam

> Someone is protecting the city with everyone being there. She became the Bat. I am sticking with this theory and no one is going to deny me this theory until King stamps it out.





> Yes yes yes. Theory accepted.


I still think she'd have dropped by for this, which is why my theory is that she's_ off planet_ with the Justice League Batmanning.  :Wink: 

Of course if we are somehow lucky enough to see BatmanCass, it probably will be in Gotham as you suggest, but whatever

----------


## Assam

By Ninalinovna on Tumblr: 

cass and helena.jpg

I really wish they'd kept around the fist bump as Cass's way of saying hi.

----------


## Blight

> I still think she'd have dropped by for this, which is why my theory is that she's_ off planet_ with the Justice League Batmanning. 
> 
> Of course if we are somehow lucky enough to see BatmanCass, it probably will be in Gotham as you suggest, but whatever


Well, considering Kate was also not in the group shot. So maybe something is up with that right there?

----------


## Caivu

> Well, considering Kate was also not in the group shot. So maybe something is up with that right there?


She's out doing Colony stuff.

----------


## Blight

> She's out doing Colony stuff.


Which makes me wonder. What if Kate is the one who'll be adopting Cassandra? 


Though there is another thing that makes me wonder as well it is something totally different. So Cass is a Bombshell now. Does that mean a few months down the line we're getting new variants/prints by Ant Lucia? Cause.... I'd so buy that.

----------


## Katana500

> Which makes me wonder. What if Kate is the one who'll be adopting Cassandra? 
> 
> 
> Though there is another thing that makes me wonder as well it is something totally different. So Cass is a Bombshell now. Does that mean a few months down the line we're getting new variants/prints by Ant Lucia? Cause.... I'd so buy that.


Kate adopting Cass would be a massive twist. I dunno what I'd think of it. On one hand it could be interesting but on the other it would kinda wipe out Cass's most important relationship which was with Bruce

----------


## Assam

> What if Kate is the one who'll be adopting Cassandra?


I would burn *everything*.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But no, I wouldn't care for that at all. 




> Though there is another thing that makes me wonder as well it is something totally different. So Cass is a Bombshell now. Does that mean a few months down the line we're getting new variants/prints by Ant Lucia? Cause.... I'd so buy that.


If we're really lucky (The Cass fanbase being lucky? First time for everything I guess) this may be her way of getting a POP. Though if she does get a Lucia print, I would definitely get that as well. 




> On one hand it could be interesting but on the other it would kinda wipe out Cass's most important relationship which was with Bruce


Much as I'm a proponent for the adoption returning, that's untrue. The importance of Cass and Bruce's relationship can not be understated and I hate it when people do so, but I'd still say Bruce comes in tied for second with Steph as far as her most important relationship goes. Lost to us now or not, Barabra was still the most important person in her life.

----------


## Katana500

I'm curious Assam! If you were in charge how would you restore Babs and Cass's relationship! If you had to keep Barbara as Batgirl.  :Smile:

----------


## Rogue Star

I was hoping to return to some good Cass news but I can find none.

----------


## Carabas

> I'm curious Assam! If you were in charge how would you restore Babs and Cass's relationship! If you had to keep Barbara as Batgirl.


Yeah, because the Babs that was a mentor to Cass, she's gone. There isn't a trace of her left in whatever passes for Barbara Gordon these days.

----------


## millernumber1

> Which makes me wonder. What if Kate is the one who'll be adopting Cassandra? 
> 
> Though there is another thing that makes me wonder as well it is something totally different. So Cass is a Bombshell now. Does that mean a few months down the line we're getting new variants/prints by Ant Lucia? Cause.... I'd so buy that.


I don't see how Kate has been shown to have a particularly motherly relationship to Cass. Whereas, though Tynion hasn't developed it a ton, there's still been some significant moments of Bruce acting in a more fatherly way towards her - the famous hug from Batman and Robin Eternal #13, and the way he let her beat him up in League of Shadows. There just hasn't been any scene or arc between Kate and Cass to match those thing, and there's definitely not really a history, given their chronologies.




> Kate adopting Cass would be a massive twist. I dunno what I'd think of it. On one hand it could be interesting but on the other it would kinda wipe out Cass's most important relationship which was with Bruce


I just don't see how it flows from what is being developed relationally.




> Yeah, because the Babs that was a mentor to Cass, she's gone. There isn't a trace of her left in whatever passes for Barbara Gordon these days.


Agreed, I don't really see the Oracle I know who was Cass's mentor today.

----------


## Assam

New TSBranch art. Always nice!

new branch.jpg

----------


## Caivu

> Which makes me wonder. What if Kate is the one who'll be adopting Cassandra?


Boooo.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

But seriously, no. Kate's closer to being her aunt or older sister, if anything. And I don't think Kate and a kid (even an older kid) would be a good mix, even though I think there's enough evidence to support that on some level, she _does_ want children.

----------


## millernumber1

> Boooo. 
> 
> But seriously, no. Kate's closer to being her aunt or older sister, if anything. And I don't think Kate and a kid (even an older kid) would be a good mix, even though I think there's enough evidence to support that on some level, she _does_ want children.


I feel much better about being against a Kate adoption of Cass now.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

More Takara Cass: 

takara cass once more.jpg

Also, by Picmurasaki on Tumblr, a story that needs to happen eventually:

cass batcow.jpg

----------


## Assam

New Rena mini*******: http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/16836...-that-cass-did

As usual, she brings up a _lot_ of interesting points.

----------


## Assam

Hoping when we get the preview for #970 tomorrow, it'll indicate if Cass is going to do something in it, or if it'll be another issue where I question why I continue to read this book.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Hoping when we get the preview for #970 tomorrow, it'll indicate if Cass is going to do something in it, or if it'll be another issue where I question why I continue to read this book.


Even if Cass does something, I'd still question why you continue to read Tynion's *Detective Comics*.

----------


## sakuyamons

> Even if Cass does something, I'd still question why you continue to read Tynion's *Detective Comics*.


its not that bad. Well, I am still behind/kinda dropped it but still

----------


## Assam

> Even if Cass does something, I'd still question why you continue to read Tynion's *Detective Comics*.


Desperation  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Really though, I feel the book has only been_ bad_ since October and the Utopia mini-arc. Prior to that was the best arc the book has had, though that still had one key problem, and while the quality has never been consistent, at it's best its been fantastic (though not exactly groundbreaking) and at its worst its been somewhat below mediocre. 

Also, this is something I've been meaning to ask you, but I was wondering why _you_ read Larson's Batgirl. You've said it and New Super-Man are your favorite Rebirth books and while I obviously get loving NSM, Larson's Batgirl doesn't really seem like your kind of thing.

----------


## Frontier

> Also, this is something I've been meaning to ask you, but I was wondering why _you_ read Larson's Batgirl. You've said it and New Super-Man are your favorite Rebirth books and while I obviously get loving NSM, Larson's Batgirl doesn't really seem like your kind of thing.


The last arc was surprisingly solid.

----------


## MajorHoy

> . . . Also, this is something I've been meaning to ask you, but I was wondering why _you_ read Larson's Batgirl. You've said it and New Super-Man are your favorite Rebirth books and while I obviously get loving NSM, Larson's Batgirl doesn't really seem like your kind of thing.


Well, both _New Super-Man_ and _Batgirl_ have become my favorite _Rebirth_ books kinda by default.
I had previously viewed my main favorites as *Action Comics*, *Superwoman*, and*Wonder Woman*, but I didn't enjoy *Superwoman* after Phil Jimenez stopped writing it, and the _post-_Rucka *Wonder Woman* isn't much fun. As for *Action Comics*, it sort of lost part of it's appeal when they merged _Convergence_-Superman with _New52_-Superman, and what they did to Jor-El recently didn't help. 

_Batgirl_to me can still be fun, and I like Babs-as-Batgirl.

----------


## Blight

Honestly, Tec is a rollercoaster ride. When it clicks you're on top of the world (like the Tim prior to this). When you're at the bottom of this ride you know it (i.e. the last issue). But Basil, Tim, and Cass are the reasons I enjoy this ride. I just wish Stephanie got a better lingering subplot. It feels like a downgrade compared to Tim or Cass's lingering ones.

----------


## Assam

Psudonym colored some of their adorable art. 

colored pseudo.jpg

----------


## Assam

970 1.jpg

970 2.jpg

These two just continuing to be the best.  :Smile: 

I said this on the 'Tec thread, but I laughed out loud at Cass's line in panel 4.  It isn't some of her best sass, but I could definitely see that as one of classic Cass's one-liners.

----------


## millernumber1

> 970 1.jpg
> 
> 970 2.jpg
> 
> These two just continuing to be the best. 
> 
> I said this on the 'Tec thread, but I laughed out loud at Cass's line in panel 4.  It isn't some of her best sass, but I could definitely see that as one of classic Cass's one-liners.


It was a really excellent moment.

----------


## adrikito

> 970 1.jpg
> 
> 970 2.jpg
> 
> These two just continuing to be the best. 
> 
> I said this on the 'Tec thread, but I laughed out loud at Cass's line in panel 4.  It isn't some of her best sass, but I could definitely see that as one of classic Cass's one-liners.


WHY? Why clayface is one villain? DC is cruel..

----------


## Blight

> WHY? Why clayface is one villain? DC is cruel..


I think that's the point Tynion is making. He wants us to root for him to get a happy ending. But in Gotham there really is ever a happy ending.

----------


## Assam

> I think that's the point Tynion is making. He wants us to root for him to get a happy ending..


It's what Tynion's been telegraphing for a long time. He's definitely succeeded in making the readership root for him, but my worry, especially with the book's recent quality, is that the tragic end won't be worth losing such a great character. Contrary to what some people here probably think, I don't have any inherent problem with characters I love dying or having negative developments, but it has to be well-executed and provide enough of the _right_ kind of impact that it makes no longer getting stories with a character worth it, making us sad for the character rather than pissed at the writer.

----------


## TheCape

tumblr_nig7qblZgL1su2of1o1_540.jpg
Pretty awesome image lf Cassandra Cain and Mayday Parker.

----------


## Assam

> tumblr_nig7qblZgL1su2of1o1_540.jpg
> Pretty awesome image lf Cassandra Cain and Mayday Parker.


Chest sizes aside, it's a pretty great image.(Only just now getting into Mayday and she's awesome.) It's from an old Wizard Magazine cover.

----------


## adrikito

> tumblr_nig7qblZgL1su2of1o1_540.jpg
> Pretty awesome image lf Cassandra Cain and Mayday Parker.


Mayday Parker? One daughter of spiderman in one alternative universe?

I like more the designs of Spider-Gwen and Silk.. Superman Original Costume looks better in one woman than Spiderman costume with a few changes..

----------


## TheCape

> Chest sizes aside, it's a pretty great image.(Only just now getting into Mayday and she's awesome.) It's from an old Wizard Magazine cover.


Mayday and Kaine (and the original Ben Reilly) are the only members of the spider-family that i actually like.

----------


## TheCape

> Mayday Parker? One daughter of spiderman in one alternative universe?
> 
> I like more the designs of Spider-Gwen and Silk.. Superman Original Costume looks better in one woman than Spiderman costume with a few changes..


Yeah, she was the protagonist of the Spider-Girl comic for years in the MC2 Universe (Marvel Comics 2).

----------


## Assam

> Mayday and Kaine (and the original Ben Reilly) are the only members of the spider-family that i actually like.


Mayday has quickly become my favorite spider-family character  and funnily enough the original Ben Reilly was my favorite before that. Haven't read much with Kaine, but I do kinda like Miles, Flash and Peter, even if I won't exactly seek out stories with them.

----------


## Frontier

I like several members of the "Spider-Family" even if I don't think the concept of one really works all that well.

Especially compared to DC's families.

----------


## Celgress

> Mayday has quickly become my favorite spider-family character  and funnily enough the original Ben Reilly was my favorite before that. Haven't read much with Kaine, but I do kinda like Miles, Flash and Peter, even if I won't exactly seek out stories with them.


I agree on Classic Ben Reilly. How unfortunate those in charge of Marvel have seen fit to ruin, imo, a once great character. :Frown:

----------


## TheCape

> Mayday has quickly become my favorite spider-family character  and funnily enough the original Ben Reilly was my favorite before that. Haven't read much with Kaine, but I do kinda like Miles, Flash and Peter, even if I won't exactly seek out stories with them.


Yost Scarlet Spider run is pretty good, even when i think that tye quality dropped a little in the final issues. I love Ben for how similar he was to Peter and at the same time so different, of course Peter would be number 1 for me, no matter what (even if the last 10 years his characther has been less than stelar). Miles is an interesting concept that has been poorly executed since day one IMHO.

----------


## TheCape

> I like several members of the "Spider-Family" even if I don't think the concept of one really works all that well.
> 
> Especially compared to DC's families.


I don't dislike the others exactly, but i don't think that their inclusion on the mythos has been particurlary well handled, some of the had improved like Silk, but some others hadn't sadly like Miles or Spider-Gwen.

----------


## Assam

> Yost Scarlet Spider run is pretty good, even when i think that tye quality dropped a little in the final issues. I love Ben for how similar he was to Peter and at the same time so different


Agreed about both. 




> of course Peter would be number 1 for me, no matter what (even if the last 10 years his characther has been less than stelar).


Peter's a case for me where I like the character quite a bit, but I like a version of him outside the comics a lot more. I don't think I'll ever be over Spectacular Spider-Man. :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Miles is an interesting concept that has been poorly executed since day one IMHO.


I've read barely any of Miles' solo stuff. Mostly just know him from the current Champions book.

----------


## Frontier

> I don't dislike the others exactly, but i don't think that their inclusion on the mythos has been particurlary well handled, some of the had improved like Silk, but some others hadn't sadly like Miles or Spider-Gwen.


I think generally the other Spiders are fine characters in their own right but more often then not it doesn't feel like they add that much to the core mythos or to Peter in general whenever they interact (and sometimes it feels like they actually detract from him). 

And sometimes they can feel so shoe-horned into other media with Peter in it (I'm looking at you, _Marvel's Spider-Man_ cartoon).



> Peter's a case for me where I like the character quite a bit, but I like a version of him outside the comics a lot more. I don't think I'll ever be over Spectacular Spider-Man.


You and me both...



> I've read barely any of Miles' solo stuff. Mostly just know him from the current Champions book.


Miles in _Champions_ is okay, but you're not really going to get a good reading on a Spider-Character in a Mark Waid book.

----------


## Assam

Waited all day for solicits to come out, excited to see what the title of Cass's arc would be...and I was greeted with a slap in the face. I hate everything.  :Mad:

----------


## Aioros22

Because Trial?

----------


## Assam

> Because Trial?


No, that's from last month's #975 solicit. #976 and #977 are starting the arc 'Batmen Eternal' and is  focusing around Tim and Kate.

----------


## adrikito

> No, that's from last month's #975 solicit. #976 and #977 are starting the arc 'Batmen Eternal' and is  focusing around Tim and Kate.


TIM and KATE...  AGAIN SOMETHING RELATED WITH TOMORROW FUTURE.. 

*So, this will be a long saga.... I am tired of this.*  :Mad:  Detective Comics fans will end tired of these 2.... There are one batwoman comic..





> Waited all day for solicits to come out, excited to see what the title of Cass's arc would be...and I was greeted with a slap in the face. I hate everything.


You are not the only dissapointed.. With Cass saga I was full of hopes.. but now.. Again with Tomorrow Future things....  :Mad:

----------


## Aioros22

> No, that's from last month's #975 solicit. #976 and #977 are starting the arc 'Batmen Eternal' and is  focusing around Tim and Kate.


Having read all the solicits of Tec and Titans I can now conclude that Tim`s gone online and seen how popular Jason or bad boys are and is gone over the edge, like every nice guy sooner or later. 

And standing out like a sore thumb. 

Seriously, make some room and give us the Cass, Tynion. She`s been consisntantly the best written character of the book for months.

----------


## Blight

She's getting another arc. Plus we know she has a part in February's comic. So what if it begins in April or May? Patience is a virtue. Plus it means convention hype (i.e. Cass's arc will be focused on in the comic cons in March thru April which means you can ask QUESTIONS if Tynion goes to a convention).

----------


## Barbatos666

There will be only 4 issues left after the solicited issues to close Tynion second year on the book. If Cass gets a story it will be like that 2 parter with Steph at best. She could still get a proper arc to kickoff year 3 though but you're looking towards June.

----------


## Assam

> She's getting another arc. Plus we know she has a part in February's comic. So what if it begins in April or May? Patience is a virtue. Plus it means convention hype (i.e. Cass's arc will be focused on in the comic cons in March thru April which means you can ask QUESTIONS if Tynion goes to a convention).


The positive outlook is appreciated. I know her arc _is_ probably coming after this, but by the time it starts it'll have been around a year since League of Shadows ended and the paranoid side of me is thinking she isn't getting an arc at all, 'Batmen Eternal' is just going to be a series of one-shots about the team members and the focus Tynion referred to was just a single issue here.

----------


## Barbatos666

Um how do you know Batmen Eternal is a series of one shots?  Makes sense but I dont recall any official confirmation.

----------


## Assam

> Um how do you know Batmen Eternal is a series of one shots?  Makes sense but I dont recall any official confirmation.


Look back at what I said. I said that that's what the paranoid side of me was thinking of as a possibility.

----------


## Assam

Oh hey, another DC writer who'd love to work on Cass.  :Smile: 

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...52582408007680

Also, this makes two Cass fans with major roles in the production of the 'Titans' show.

----------


## Blight

> The positive outlook is appreciated. I know her arc _is_ probably coming after this, but by the time it starts it'll have been around a year since League of Shadows ended and the paranoid side of me is thinking she isn't getting an arc at all, 'Batmen Eternal' is just going to be a series of one-shots about the team members and the focus Tynion referred to was just a single issue here.


Because there's too many loose plots with Cassandra that can't be tidy up by a single issue. 

#1 Ra's/St. Dumas subplot.
#2 Shiva is a prisoner of Ra's.
#3 Shiva's words to Cass.
#4 Cass is PISSED at Ra's.
#5 Bruce/Cass
#6 Fallout whatever the heck happens in this current arc that pisses Cass off on Kate.
#7 Cass/Basil and whatever fallout that happens in this current arc. 

I doubt one issue can cover all of that.

----------


## Assam

> Because there's too many loose plots with Cassandra that can't be tidy up by a single issue. 
> 
> #1 Ra's/St. Dumas subplot.
> #2 Shiva is a prisoner of Ra's.
> #3 Shiva's words to Cass.
> #4 Cass is PISSED at Ra's.
> #5 Bruce/Cass
> #6 Fallout whatever the heck happens in this current arc that pisses Cass off on Kate.
> #7 Cass/Basil and whatever fallout that happens in this current arc. 
> ...


You're absolutely right. Like I said, this is just me being paranoid because well, it's DC so I'm paranoid about everything and because Tynion never actually said that Cass would be getting an arc in the Spring, just that Bruce and Cass's relationship would be getting attention. Realistically, there is a pretty good chance that her actual arc will be coming after Batmen Eternal.

----------


## Katana500

If the Gotham Knights team does fully disintigrate, I dont really see why Cass and to a lesser extent Luke would both leave and not stick with Bruce? I mean Steph, Kate, Clayface and Tim all leaving/being forced to leave kinda makes sense, but I dont see why the others would have any reason to leave Bruce and the team.  Maybe by the end of the arc, it will just be Bruce, Cass and maybe an extra member like Tim/Luke/Azreal who stick around for Cass's future arc.

----------


## El_Gato

So Cass goes by the name of The Black Bat in the Bombshell's universe! That's pretty cool. Bombshells needs an animated adaption!

----------


## Frontier

> Oh hey, another DC writer who'd love to work on Cass. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...52582408007680
> 
> Also, this makes two Cass fans with major roles in the production of the 'Titans' show.


I have no idea who this is, but cool  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> I have no idea who this is, but cool .


He's the writer of the current Michael Cray series. Also a writer for the Titans show.

----------


## Caivu

Some of Javier Fernandez's art, probably from 'Tec #976:

Screenshot_20171222-111408.jpg

----------


## RedBird

> Some of Javier Fernandez's art, probably from 'Tec #976


Interesting, I can't tell if its a mirror image or if the hands really do have a 'Mr Burns' vibe to them.

Excellent

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> Screenshot_20171222-111408.jpg


"If I break Tim's fingers... will he finally stop hacking?"

----------


## TheCape

> Interesting, I can't tell if its a mirror image or if the hands really do have a 'Mr Burns' vibe to them.
> 
> Excellent


She is doing her best impression of a ninja from the Narutoverse  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## godisawesome

> "If I break Tim's fingers... will he finally stop hacking?"


Tim: "Ha, jokes on you! I can hack with my nose!" *tap...tap...tap*

Steph: "Cass, stop him before he pecks himself into a concussion."

Cass: (shrugs, nerve pinch)

----------


## Assam

> Tim: "Ha, jokes on you! I can hack with my nose!" *tap...tap...tap*
> 
> Steph: "Cass, stop him before he pecks himself into a concussion."
> 
> Cass: (shrugs, nerve pinch)


Tim: "Still got my toes!" *tap...tap...tap* 

Steph: "I didn't even know he could move them like that." 

Cass: (rolls eyes, crushes feet) 

Tim: "No matter. I'll just use my..."

Cass: "Stop."

----------


## Assam

New Marcus To art

diana and cass.jpg

----------


## Fantastic Alice

Beautiful. Always loved her Batgirl costume. Somehow I felt it always captured her perfectly. 

I wish they'd find the lost 5 years was all No Man's Land and Oracle and BatgirlCass.

Gotham as an unapproachable island im a lost 5 years makes thematic sense.

Right now it's mein HeadCanon. Cataclysm/NMH is surprisingly good for 90s era comics.

----------


## Frontier

> New Marcus To art
> 
> Attachment 59857


Really like the way To depicts her Batgirl costume here. Very eerie and cool  :Cool: .

Classic Wonder Woman is nice too  :Embarrassment: .

----------


## godisawesome

> Beautiful. Always loved her Batgirl costume. Somehow I felt it always captured her perfectly. 
> 
> I wish they'd find the lost 5 years was all No Man's Land and Oracle and BatgirlCass.
> 
> Gotham as an unapproachable island im a lost 5 years makes thematic sense.
> 
> Right now it's mein HeadCanon. Cataclysm/NMH is surprisingly good for 90s era comics.


I think that's right around the time where DC as a whole was ahead of Marvel's game in terms of writing, thanks to all the issues Marvel went through when they accidentally burned down the industry ca. The Clone Saga.

----------


## Rogue Star

> New Marcus To art
> 
> Attachment 59857


I wish they would restore her old canon.  :'(

----------


## Assam

> Right now it's mein HeadCanon. Cataclysm/NMH is surprisingly good for 90s era comics.


Not sure if you were a lurker here or for how long, but we've had a few threads about the best of DC in the 90's or DC's best era, and when you actually write out all the amazing books DC had in the 90's, going into the early 2000's, despite how bad a rap the decade gets because of Marvel and indies, they've arguably never had a stronger line-up. 




> I wish they would restore her old canon.  :'(


We all do. 

Going off that art, I also wish we could get a proper team-up with her and Diana. Wonder Woman #600 was such a tease.

----------


## Assam

To those who celebrate it, Merry Christmas.   :Smile: 

cass christmas.jpg

cass christmas 2.jpg

----------


## Frontier

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone  :Smile: .

----------


## Rogue Star

> To those who celebrate it, Merry Christmas.  
> 
> cass christmas.jpg
> 
> cass christmas 2.jpg


You can't see my face but there are tears of joy streaming down my cheeks.  :')

That was beautiful.

----------


## Assam

> You can't see my face but there are tears of joy streaming down my cheeks.  :')
> 
> That was beautiful.


It's definitely one of the best additions Rucka made in the novelization of NML. If you haven't read it (or listened to the audio drama) I really recommend it. Sadly Azrael is cut from the story entirely so those bits with Cass are gone, but her role is expanded quite a bit, being introduced long before David shows up.

----------


## Rogue Star

No Man's Land was novelized?  Hmm. I'll consider it. I still haven't finished reading the collection I have. :P

----------


## Barbatos666

Cass never knew the secret identities till Fugitive if I'm remembering correctly. Thats a substantial change in the novelization.

----------


## Assam

> No Man's Land was novelized?  Hmm. I'll consider it. I still haven't finished reading the collection I have. :P


You can listen to the audio drama here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZbqCW4BW0s    It's obviously not meant for one sitting, but I highly recommend it. 




> Cass never knew the secret identities till Fugitive if I'm remembering correctly. Thats a substantial change in the novelization.


Yeah, in the original continuity Cass figured Bruce's identity out herself which I really liked. For an out of continuity adaptation though it's a fine change, especially since it allows for that sweet moment.

----------


## Assam

Truly adorable art by polmcarts on Tumblr

cinderella art.jpg

----------


## Caivu

By Royal Dunlap:

Attachment 60155

----------


## Assam

Gonna keep my mouth shut on this until we know more, primarily because I have no idea how this is going to be handled. 

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...41265151500290

----------


## reni344

Double Post Delete

----------


## Avantre

> Gonna keep my mouth shut on this until we know more, primarily because I have no idea how this is going to be handled. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...41265151500290


"Sorry, that page doesn't exist"

----------


## Assam

> "Sorry, that page doesn't exist"


Looks like Tynion just deleted his twitter. He said he was going to do so yesterday. 

Someone asked him if Cass would ever be allowed to be happy. His response was that Babs would have something to say about that in #975.

----------


## Katana500

> Looks like Tynion just deleted his twitter. He said he was going to do so yesterday. 
> 
> Someone asked him if Cass would ever be allowed to be happy. His response was that Babs would have something to say about that in #975.


Thats interesting! Im interested to see how he approaches it  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Looks like Tynion just deleted his twitter. He said he was going to do so yesterday. 
> 
> Someone asked him if Cass would ever be allowed to be happy. His response was that Babs would have something to say about that in #975.


Hmm...a milestone issue and Babs actually getting a moment with Cass? Interesting on a lot of levels. 

Did Tynion specify why he was closing down his twitter? Does he get a lot of hate or flak on it?

----------


## Assam

> Did Tynion specify why he was closing down his twitter? Does he get a lot of hate or flak on it?


He said he was shutting it down because he felt like he was spending too much time on it that he could be spending on other things.

----------


## Frontier

> He said he was shutting it down because he felt like he was spending too much time on it that he could be spending on other things.


Oh! I can respect that  :Smile: . 

Especially since sometimes it feels like certain writers spend more time on twitter or arguing with fans then they do actually writing comics...

----------


## Pohzee

This is what I wanted to see from Detective Comics.

Also, while I'm here Assam, I did read part of Cass's solo series on Christmas Eve.

I didn't quite go into it with an open mind. As I was reading the first issue, I told myself that I didn't  like it. I didn't like the art and I thought it was a little cheesy. But when I went to put it down, I found that I couldn't. I was genuinely interested in it. As I read, the art grew on me too. I enjoyed it. I kinda lost interest on the issue with the fill-in artist and stopped reading. I got other things that I'd rather read now, but I can see myself coming back to it in the future.

----------


## The Whovian

> Looks like Tynion just deleted his twitter. He said he was going to do so yesterday. 
> 
> Someone asked him if Cass would ever be allowed to be happy. His response was that Babs would have something to say about that in #975.


Hmm, wonder what that could mean?

----------


## Assam

> Also, while I'm here Assam, I did read part of Cass's solo series on Christmas Eve.
> 
> I didn't quite go into it with an open mind. As I was reading the first issue, I told myself that I didn't  like it. I didn't like the art and I thought it was a little cheesy. But when I went to put it down, I found that I couldn't. I was genuinely interested in it. As I read, the art grew on me too. I enjoyed it. I kinda lost interest on the issue with the fill-in artist and stopped reading. I got other things that I'd rather read now, but I can see myself coming back to it in the future.


Glad you enjoyed what you read of it. Not that I had any doubt. I can see why the Officer Down tie-in may have made you lose some interest, but I definitely hope you come back to the book soon, especially since a lot of the best issues are right around the corner from where you are.  :Smile: 

Also, Scott's art is definitely an acquired taste, but not the kind that takes long. After first glance it can be very off-putting, but then you realize that the style works perfectly for displaying fast kinetic movement and unique angles. It's something no other Cass artist has accomplished as well IMO, although Rick Leonardi's art later in the series is downright gorgeous. 




> Hmm, wonder what that could mean?


I'm just wondering why, if the Bat Office  knew this was coming up, they didn't bother to set this up at all in the recent awful Birds of Prey storyline. Just one quick exchange is all it would have taken for them.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/psuedofolio/stat...31039743471616

Obviously a long shot but it'd certainly be something if Psudo got as far as making it into the program.

----------


## Assam

And now Pseudo is making me feel things 

https://psuede.deviantart.com/art/Th...asil-723921156

----------


## Frontier

That's some really lovely art  :Big Grin: .

----------


## adrikito

> Someone asked him if Cass would ever be allowed to be happy. His response was that Babs would have something to say about that in #975.


THANKS, is interesting..

975.... I think that is the issue with Batwoman, Batman and Cass in the cover.. Ok, I will see this chapter(currently I am out)




> And now Pseudo is making me feel things 
> 
> https://psuede.deviantart.com/art/Th...asil-723921156


Beautiful image..

----------


## millernumber1

> THANKS, is interesting..
> 
> 975.... I think that is the issue with Batwoman, Batman and Cass in the cover.. Ok, I will see this chapter(currently I am out)
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful image..


Babs...I am VERY intrigued. Tynion hasn't really done anything I can think of with canon Babs since the first Eternal.

----------


## MajorHoy

> Tynion hasn't really done anything I can think of with canon Babs since the first Eternal.


Some of us may prefer that it stay that way, too.

----------


## millernumber1

> Some of us may prefer that it stay that way, too.


Some of us. Well, okay. Me. Think he's great!  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Some of us may prefer that it stay that way, too.


I am reserving judgement on this case until 975 drops. Should he go against the status quo and write Babs the way she should be written with Cass, it'll be the closest thing we'll have to the real Barbara Gordon being around since 2011. 




> Some of us. Well, okay. Me. Think he's great!


Hey, it's not just you; Caivu too!  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Yes I know he obviously has more fans.

----------


## millernumber1

> Hey, it's not just you; Caivu too!  
> 
> Yes I know he obviously has more fans.


Haha, true. It's also the case that in this, as in many other things, CBR's forums aren't super representative of fandom. Either that, or there's 49,998 fans who are just collecting Tec for collecting's sake.  :Wink:

----------


## MajorHoy

> Haha, true. It's also the case that in this, as in many other things, CBR's forums aren't super representative of fandom. Either that, or there's 49,998 fans who are just collecting Tec for collecting's sake.


And some (not me, though, since I dropped it with issue #941) may be "collecting it" for specific characters they don't get anywhere else these days?

And, by the way, how do you get that "49,998 fans" number? Do you have a source saying how many *individual readers* are buying specific products?  :Confused:

----------


## millernumber1

> And some (not me, though, since I dropped it with issue #941) may be "collecting it" for specific characters they don't get anywhere else these days?
> 
> And, by the way, how do you get that "49,998 fans" number? Do you have a source saying how many *individual readers* are buying specific products?


It's a joke, based on the Diamond shipping numbers of about 50,000 units shipped of each issue of Tec. So I was saying that there's Caivu and me, and then there's the other 49,998 who just buy it to have it in their collections.

----------


## MajorHoy

> It's a joke, based on the Diamond shipping numbers of about 50,000 units shipped of each issue of Tec. So I was saying that there's Caivu and me, and then there's the other 49,998 who just buy it to have it in their collections.


And I was stressing the numbers from Diamond (which I assumed you were using) don't say *anything* about the number of people who actually buy copies of comic books since Diamond doesn't deal with individual readers. Their numbers are strictly books ordered by comic book shops, so Diamond has no clue as to how many are sold to actual individual readers. 
(So your attempt at "humor" seemed relatively pointless to me.)

----------


## millernumber1

> And I was stressing the numbers from Diamond (which I assumed you were using) don't say *anything* about the number of people who actually buy copies of comic books since Diamond doesn't deal with individual readers. Their numbers are strictly books ordered by comic book shops, so Diamond has no clue as to how many are sold to actual individual readers. 
> (So your attempt at "humor" seemed relatively pointless to me.)


I mean, it's pretty obvious that the joke isn't for you. S'okay.

I think that Diamond numbers are incredibly frustratingly oblique, so I would agree with you that it's really hard to tell actual customer sales from them, but for any title, it's incredibly unlikely that stores would continue to order high numbers like that to eat up inventory space if they weren't mostly selling through. Tec's consistency indicates to me that a number of people are buying it in quantities that reflect the store orders. Plus, DC isn't running cover incentives, so there's no real argument that the stores are over-ordering them for some nefarious purpose. (I also haven't heard of DC overshipping consistently, either.)

----------


## Blight

Psu outdoes themselves with this one. EDIT: And I see I was beaten to the punch with the link on the next page.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

MyFriendBasil.jpg

----------


## Assam

@Blight Posted that on the previous page. It's so good I made it my laptop's background.

----------


## Blight

> @Blight Posted that on the previous page. It's so good I made it my laptop's background.


Yeah I saw and noted that in the edit. ONE STEP AHEAD OF ME you are.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## JudasFanny616

Just discovered her in the current Detective Comics. She's such an awesome fighter.

----------


## Assam

> Just discovered her in the current Detective Comics. She's such an awesome fighter.


Glad you like her!

There's much more to her than just being a fighter though. For a lot of us Cass fans it has nothing to do with why we love her. 

My highest recommendation goes to her Batgirl book, the first 37 issues of which have been collected in three very nice trades recently (link to the first trade below). Feel free to ask questions if you have any. 

https://www.amazon.com/Batgirl-2000-...s=batgirl+2000

----------


## Assam

By Jake-Meraga 

drowning her sorrows.jpg

Cass here seems to be drowning her sorrows over being stuck in 'Tec. For her sake, I hope NuCass isn't a lightweight like classic Cass was.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> By Jake-Meraga 
> 
> drowning her sorrows.jpg
> 
> Cass here seems to be drowning her sorrows over being stuck in 'Tec. For her sake, I hope NuCass isn't a lightweight like classic Cass was.


I think it would be a fun aspect to explore. Drunken Master Cass would make a hilarious scene  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> By Jake-Meraga 
> 
> Attachment 60432
> 
> Cass here seems to be drowning her sorrows over being stuck in 'Tec. For her sake, I hope NuCass isn't a lightweight like classic Cass was.


I'm sure it's just milk/orange juice  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> Psu outdoes themselves with this one. EDIT: And I see I was beaten to the punch with the link on the next page. 
> 
> Attachment 60369


I saw this image previously, maybe in deviantart.... Sorry *Assam*, I forgot put the image here..

----------


## Assam

> I think it would be a fun aspect to explore. Drunken Master Cass would make a hilarious scene


Oh I would love to see that. 




> I'm sure it's just milk/orange juice .


You're thinking of that scene from BatO aren't you?




> I saw this image previously, maybe in deviantart.... Sorry *Assam*, I forgot put the image here..


I posted the image here the same day is came out. Plus, even if no one had, there's no reason to be "sorry".  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> Oh I would love to see that.


Honestly, I was just picturing this old, grizzled, hard-drinking Cass in a mentor role...



> You're thinking of that scene from BatO aren't you?


I was more thinking of an anime, but let's go with that  :Wink: .

----------


## Assam

> Honestly, I was just picturing this old, grizzled, hard-drinking Cass in a mentor role.


I'm imagining something along the lines of a more laconic old Toph. 




> I was more thinking of an anime, but let's go with that .


Now I'm curious. Which?

----------


## Frontier

> I'm imagining something along the lines of a more laconic old Toph.


I could see that too  :Wink: .



> Now I'm curious. Which?


Off the top of my head, _Muv-Luv Alternative: Total Eclipse._

----------


## PyroTwilight

So I'm finally reading the Rebirth Detective Comics. Lots of fun. Read the first two trades (Rise of the Batmen and the Victim Syndicate alas she wasn't too much in that second arc was she?)

Loved seeing Cass and her smirk after beating the tar out of those what dozen Colony soldiers? Really cute. 

Or the nice note that Bruce's communication device for Cass was a simple double tap since she doesn't talk very much.

Same for the scene where Tim and Steph were together and Cass was just kind of sitting on the windowsill coming in. I thought it was hilarious that Cass unlike the others really doesn't want time away from the others to relax. She loves being around others. And yes I've grown accustomed to her seeming like a lost cat or puppy who just goes to whoever's place, usually Steph's. 

And of course the funny bit where Silencer tries "silencing" Cass. And I think it was Kate just laughing about the whole thing saying something like "Yeah. Nice try but she already doesn't talk much."

----------


## Assam

Cass continued to be the best in 'Tec today so no real surprise there. 

One big negative I've thought of (and think I've brought up) before to what's going on in that book is that if Basil does really die in two weeks, rather than him ending up a civilian supporting character or sympathetic villain as I've suggested? The last year will have basically been pointless for Cass. She'll have a vendetta against Kate and yet another thing to be sad about. That's it. I love Cass and Basil's relationship and it's consistently been the best part of the book, but if this was always going to be a short term thing (which it _shouldn't_ be), then why not use that time to build up Cass's old relationships, ones with characters who are actually going to be around. Tim and Steph may have been gone (and written as they are, I'm not sure if I want Cass interacting with them) but both Bruce and JPV were around the whole time. 

Just...really disappointed.

----------


## adrikito

Batgirl selfie:

Attachment 60580

----------


## Blight

> Cass continued to be the best in 'Tec today so no real surprise there. 
> 
> One big negative I've thought of (and think I've brought up) before to what's going on in that book is that if Basil does really die in two weeks, rather than him ending up a civilian supporting character or sympathetic villain as I've suggested? The last year will have basically been pointless for Cass. She'll have a vendetta against Kate and yet another thing to be sad about. That's it. I love Cass and Basil's relationship and it's consistently been the best part of the book, but if this was always going to be a short term thing (which it _shouldn't_ be), then why not use that time to build up Cass's old relationships, ones with characters who are actually going to be around. Tim and Steph may have been gone (and written as they are, I'm not sure if I want Cass interacting with them) but both Bruce and JPV were around the whole time. 
> 
> Just...really disappointed.


Don't be. She'll take what Basil taught her to heart. She'll continue looking at Shakespeare. She still has Christine. I wouldn't say a vendetta against Kate. But killing Basil will piss off Bruce as well. He was close to getting a breakthrough with Basil. He actually was turning one of his Rogues then Kate kills him. That's gonna leave a mark on Bruce too along with Cass. Then add the Tim factor and he'll be terrified as hell of his future more so. But I believe in hope. All wil be well.

----------


## Assam

> Don't be. She'll take what Basil taught her to heart. She'll continue looking at Shakespeare. She still has Christine. I wouldn't say a vendetta against Kate. But killing Basil will piss off Bruce as well. He was close to getting a breakthrough with Basil. He actually was turning one of his Rogues then Kate kills him. That's gonna leave a mark on Bruce too along with Cass. Then add the Tim factor and he'll be terrified as hell of his future more so. But I believe in hope. All wil be well.


You raise good points (as usual) and I once again hope you're right. 

Sorry if it's annoying how much of a downer I can be sometimes. Depression and all.

----------


## Blight

> You raise good points (as usual) and I once again hope you're right. 
> 
> Sorry if it's annoying how much of a downer I can be sometimes. Depression and all.


It's perfectly understandable given you're a Cassandra Cain fan. History hasn't been kind to her or her fans. AT ALL. But I look at it as maybe just maybe DC learned a bit from OYL and Vol. 2. Hopefully. I carry that blue ring and hope they have learned.

----------


## Korath

Clayface being the one that Kate will probably kill hurt me so bad, because both have been characters that Cass has to come to love (Clay) and respect (Kate), so it would be like a double penalty for her to lose both that way... on the other hand, if D.C. had a clue about how to write a solo for her again, it would be the perfect starting point, because of the vast possibilities it offers for her to develop even more.
Bah, who am I kidding ?

----------


## Assam

> It's perfectly understandable given you're a Cassandra Cain fan. History hasn't been kind to her or her fans. AT ALL. But I look at it as maybe just maybe DC learned a bit from OYL and Vol. 2. Hopefully. I carry that blue ring and hope they have learned.


I've _been_ optimistic, mostly based off Tynion's comments, both to myself and in interviews and some other encouraging factors. But since Batman Annual #2 and King's reveal that there's a "reason" why Cass isn't appearing in any future BatFamiles, I've basically gone to a mindset of 'oh God Tynion please don't let them kill her, turn her evil, ship her off or erase her again.'  

Also, I like to think that like Cass, I'd carry an indigo ring...if that corps wasn't so weird I mean.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Blight

> I've _been_ optimistic, mostly based off Tynion's comments, both to myself and in interviews and some other encouraging factors. But since Batman Annual #2 and King's reveal that there's a "reason" why Cass isn't appearing in any future BatFamiles, I've basically gone to a mindset of 'oh God Tynion please don't let them kill her, turn her evil, ship her off or erase her again.'  
> 
> Also, I like to think that like Cass, I'd carry an indigo ring...if that corps wasn't so weird I mean.


To be fair, given the family that's assembled. Cass isn't the only one missing in that group shot. Kate is M.I.A. too (Helena is using her costume. So where's Kate?). So is Luke Fox and Helena. Stephanie's there only by "association" with Tim (same with Barbara to Dick) which I think is even a fate worse. That Stephanie is simply now classified as "love interest" to Tim only. Also where's Gotham Girl? Didn't King tell us back at the start of his run that Bruce was going to die and that Duke would marry Gotham Girl? So--- what happened to that? Why wasn't she there? 

Really, the only two close females present in that room are Selina, Carrie Kelly, and Helena his daughter. That's it. The rest are associated with their respective Robins. Which shipping wise is nice, but deep down I just find it meh. 

Then there's the future Tynion has set. Tim goes evil with the first step Kate betraying the family by rejoining the Colony (and obviously) doing something to Basil. The other notch is Jon's powers which turned into a sacrifice for him. But let's look at that future. Stephanie (having just missed Tim after she visited Lonnie who isn't so lucky and is murdered by Tomorrow Tim) and Jason are still around. Where's Cass? Now in the original Tomorrow timeline Cass was murdered by Duela Dent (along with Alfred and a ton of innocents). It was what set Tim off completely. So, there's a possiblity that this is the same as well. We haven't seen this Tomorrow Tim meet Cassandra, other than ironically she was the one who told the team to make the stand in protecting Kate from the Brother Eye program. This one we also has ties to 666 universe as it is alluded to Damian was Batman prior to Tim and the events from 666 comics were something Tomorrow Tim had to clean up. 

Then there's the New Order future via the Nightwing mini. Sure this is more an elseworlds or Dark multiverse story. But there are very similar themes again being shown. Kate betrays the family and again is working for the Colony. Dick is the one who adopts a more fantatical approuch (due to the death of someone close to him). Tim/Stephanie are happily retired and married.  

But wait there's another future! The Beyond Universe. Where we know about Tim, Dick, and Damian but now are getting hints of Duke existing along with more than one Batgirl.


But as a wise Jedi Master once said, "Always in motion is the future." So the question is which future is being forged for these characters as of right now? Are any of these futures' set? Will there be a curve ball?

----------


## Caivu

> Then there's the New Order future via the Nightwing mini. Sure this is more an elseworlds or Dark multiverse story. But there are very similar themes again being shown. Kate betrays the family and again is working for the Colony.


Got that a bit wrinkled. There's no indication that the Colony exists in the New Order-verse; Kate simply stopped being a vigilante and went to work for the Pentagon sometime before the events in Metropolis.

----------


## millernumber1

> To be fair, given the family that's assembled. Cass isn't the only one missing in that group shot. Kate is M.I.A. too (Helena is using her costume. So where's Kate?). So is Luke Fox and Helena. Stephanie's there only by "association" with Tim (same with Barbara to Dick) which I think is even a fate worse. That Stephanie is simply now classified as "love interest" to Tim only. Also where's Gotham Girl? Didn't King tell us back at the start of his run that Bruce was going to die and that Duke would marry Gotham Girl? So--- what happened to that? Why wasn't she there? 
> 
> Really, the only two close females present in that room are Selina, Carrie Kelly, and Helena his daughter. That's it. The rest are associated with their respective Robins. Which shipping wise is nice, but deep down I just find it meh. 
> 
> Then there's the future Tynion has set. Tim goes evil with the first step Kate betraying the family by rejoining the Colony (and obviously) doing something to Basil. The other notch is Jon's powers which turned into a sacrifice for him. But let's look at that future. Stephanie (having just missed Tim after she visited Lonnie who isn't so lucky and is murdered by Tomorrow Tim) and Jason are still around. Where's Cass? Now in the original Tomorrow timeline Cass was murdered by Duela Dent (along with Alfred and a ton of innocents). It was what set Tim off completely. So, there's a possiblity that this is the same as well. We haven't seen this Tomorrow Tim meet Cassandra, other than ironically she was the one who told the team to make the stand in protecting Kate from the Brother Eye program. This one we also has ties to 666 universe as it is alluded to Damian was Batman prior to Tim and the events from 666 comics were something Tomorrow Tim had to clean up. 
> 
> Then there's the New Order future via the Nightwing mini. Sure this is more an elseworlds or Dark multiverse story. But there are very similar themes again being shown. Kate betrays the family and again is working for the Colony. Dick is the one who adopts a more fantatical approuch (due to the death of someone close to him). Tim/Stephanie are happily retired and married.  
> 
> But wait there's another future! The Beyond Universe. Where we know about Tim, Dick, and Damian but now are getting hints of Duke existing along with more than one Batgirl.
> ...


I think the Duke/Claire stuff is closer to issue #100 of King's run, since he's been totally silent on the "death of Batman" stuff for a full year and a half.

I disagree that Steph is just a love interest for Tim, especially since in Tec she's broken up with him and functioning on her own (much to my mixed feelings) for so long.

I do love to think that Tim and Steph are married with lots of tiny babies who love their aunt Cass in New Order, though.

None of these futures really matter, though. Just look at futures in the past - they function as trajectories that inform the present continuity, but another regime of writers and editors come in, they'll just go and do something dumb like declare Batman Beyond is the official future.

----------


## millernumber1

> Got that a bit wrinkled. There's no indication that the Colony exists in the New Order-verse; Kate simply stopped being a vigilante and went to work for the Pentagon sometime before the events in Metropolis.


I don't see how the Colony couldn't have gotten folded into the New Order. Not saying that's how it is - after all, this is a universe that's much more from Higgin's Gates of Gotham continuity extrapolated rather than n52 or Rebirth continuity extrapolated, but I think it's possible.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> To be fair, given the family that's assembled. Cass isn't the only one missing in that group shot. Kate is M.I.A. too (Helena is using her costume. So where's Kate?). So is Luke Fox and Helena. Stephanie's there only by "association" with Tim (same with Barbara to Dick) which I think is even a fate worse. That Stephanie is simply now classified as "love interest" to Tim only. Also where's Gotham Girl? Didn't King tell us back at the start of his run that Bruce was going to die and that Duke would marry Gotham Girl? So--- what happened to that? Why wasn't she there? 
> 
> Really, the only two close females present in that room are Selina, Carrie Kelly, and Helena his daughter. That's it. The rest are associated with their respective Robins. Which shipping wise is nice, but deep down I just find it meh.


If it was just King excluding her from a possible future? Fine, whatever, he's done this before, it's annoying* and it just contributes more to my not wanting to read anything written by the man. But...

*The presence of Duke and especially Carrie is frankly infuriating. 




> None of these futures really matter, though. Just look at futures in the past - they function as trajectories that inform the present continuity, but another regime of writers and editors come in, they'll just go and do something dumb like declare Batman Beyond is the official future.


...it's the fact that he brought up there being a "reason" that has me worried. If this is seriously the direction King sees the BatFamily going in and will have things building towards, there's reason to be concerned. It implies that there are plans to get rid of her and/or the "reason" why she isn't there is because in the eyes of DC, she isn't as important to Bruce as his other kids (Or bloody Duke and Carrie) but as much of an acquaintance as JPV and Luke. 

If nothing has happened on this end by August, I'll definitely be seeing what I can find out from Tynion.

----------


## millernumber1

> ...it's the fact that he brought up there being a "reason" that has me worried. If this is seriously the direction King sees the BatFamily going in and will have things building towards, there's reason to be concerned. It implies that there are plans to get rid of her and/or the "reason" why she isn't there is because in the eyes of DC, she isn't as important to Bruce as his other kids (Or bloody Duke and Carrie) but as much of an acquaintance as JPV and Luke. 
> 
> If nothing has happened on this end by August, I'll definitely be seeing what I can find out from Tynion.


Eh. I don't think it's that bad. As long as Tynion is there, Cass has an advocate.

----------


## Assam

> Eh. I don't think it's that bad. As long as Tynion is there, Cass has an advocate.


I try to remind myself of that. I'd probably have a better feeling about the situation if Snyder was sticking around, but at the same time it does seem like DC wants Tynion to become one of their big names that sticks around for many, many years so hopefully he does have the power to veto any plans King may be cooking.

----------


## millernumber1

> I try to remind myself of that. I'd probably have a better feeling about the situation if Snyder was sticking around, but at the same time it does seem like DC wants Tynion to become one of their big names that sticks around for many, many years so hopefully he does have the power to veto any plans King may be cooking.


People tell me Snyder likes Cass and Steph. Maybe he does as a fan. But other than lending his name to a couple of important projects in their history, what has he actually done?

----------


## Assam

> People tell me Snyder likes Cass and Steph. Maybe he does as a fan. But other than lending his name to a couple of important projects in their history, what has he actually done?


In the case of Cass: He wrote Gates of Gotham, which was originally intended to be all about her before editorial decided they wanted it to focus on the group, he wanted to use her in Batman #1 (We don't have confirmation about the reason behind Harper's creation but this much I think we know is true), it was his influence later on which made DC give in to the fans and let him and Tynion bring her (and Steph) back and in Batman and the Signal's first issue, it may have just been a dream sequence, but she still had a place at the table in Duke's mind.

----------


## millernumber1

> In the case of Cass: He wrote Gates of Gotham, which was originally intended to be all about her before editorial decided they wanted it to focus on the group, he wanted to use her in Batman #1 (We don't have confirmation about the reason behind Harper's creation but this much I think we know is true), it was his influence later on which made DC give in to the fans and let him and Tynion bring her (and Steph) back and in Batman and the Signal's first issue, it may have just been a dream sequence, but she still had a place at the table in Duke's mind.


Higgins wrote Gates of Gotham. Snyder's involvement was about as much as with the Eternal series.

I acknowledged that his lending his name to the Eternals was important in their history. But Batman and the Signal is just another case of him lending his name.

I dunno. I'm sure he likes reading about them. But he has no interest whatsoever in actually writing them himself.

----------


## Blight

Because he fights to include them. Who wanted Batman continuity kept when the New 52 just after reintroducing her back into the family? Snyder. Who brought Stephanie back? Synder. Cassandra? Snyder. He's been very open of the battles he had to do deal with editorial in matters such as these. Kind of surprising he's frank about it on why we know what we know. 

I just wonder why this is even still a battle? When certain parties who aren't fond of this character are on other comics on the opposite spectrum or not even editor of the comics any longer. Then just who is that force then that continues to set this character back? Cause it's obivious there are creators out there who aren't fond of this character. And they're doing their damnest to quell it any chance they get.

----------


## millernumber1

> Because he fights to include them. Who wanted Batman continuity kept when the New 52 just after reintroducing her back into the family? Snyder. Who brought Stephanie back? Synder. Cassandra? Snyder. He's been very open of the battles he had to do deal with editorial in matters such as these. Kind of surprising he's frank about it on why we know what we know. 
> 
> I just wonder why this is even still a battle? When certain parties who aren't fond of this character are on other comics on the opposite spectrum or not even editor of the comics any longer. Then just who is that force then that continues to set this character back? Cause it's obivious there are creators out there who aren't fond of this character. And they're doing their damnest to quell it any chance they get.


He fights to have other people include them. Basically, he fights to tell other people how to write. Now, for Tynion, that worked, because Tynion does love these characters. But for other writers? I don't see it. And Snyder's solo stuff has NEVER contained Steph or Cass. It's always been co-writing stuff. Additionally, saying that it's Snyder who brought Steph and Cass back is not giving Tynion credit for how much he did. Snyder and Tynion were partners, but Tynion did the day-to-day "showrunning," not to mention writing the most issues in both series.

Why do I keep bringing up my irritation with Snyder about Steph and Cass? Because he keeps doing it. He says "I love Steph and Cass," and writes them into exactly zero issues of Batman, while he includes Harper, Duke, and Julia in several key issues. Are Steph or Cass in All Star Batman? Nope. But Duke has a backup solo story.

On the one hand, I get it. He created Duke. He gets money for him, so he wants to make sure Duke is established so when he leaves Gotham, Duke can't be ignored. But using Duke doesn't mean he couldn't have included Steph and Cass. But he didn't. And that really bothers me.

----------


## Blight

> He fights to have other people include them. Basically, he fights to tell other people how to write. Now, for Tynion, that worked, because Tynion does love these characters. But for other writers? I don't see it. And Snyder's solo stuff has NEVER contained Steph or Cass. It's always been co-writing stuff. Additionally, saying that it's Snyder who brought Steph and Cass back is not giving Tynion credit for how much he did. Snyder and Tynion were partners, but Tynion did the day-to-day "showrunning," not to mention writing the most issues in both series.
> 
> Why do I keep bringing up my irritation with Snyder about Steph and Cass? Because he keeps doing it. He says "I love Steph and Cass," and writes them into exactly zero issues of Batman, while he includes Harper, Duke, and Julia in several key issues. Are Steph or Cass in All Star Batman? Nope. But Duke has a backup solo story.
> 
> On the one hand, I get it. He created Duke. He gets money for him, so he wants to make sure Duke is established so when he leaves Gotham, Duke can't be ignored. But using Duke doesn't mean he couldn't have included Steph and Cass. But he didn't. And that really bothers me.


Batman #28 aka the issue he flashforwarded and reintroduced Stephanie back into the comics.

----------


## millernumber1

> Batman #28 aka the issue he flashforwarded and reintroduced Stephanie back into the comics.


Which was a fill in issue that is basically Batman Eternal #0 co-written by Tynion...

----------


## Assam

Art based off the newest issue of 'Tec by cadhla182 on Tumblr:

do it.jpg

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I've _been_ optimistic, mostly based off Tynion's comments, both to myself and in interviews and some other encouraging factors. But since Batman Annual #2 and King's reveal that there's a "reason" why Cass isn't appearing in any future BatFamiles, I've basically gone to a mindset of 'oh God Tynion please don't let them kill her, turn her evil, ship her off or erase her again.'  
> 
> Also, I like to think that like Cass, I'd carry an indigo ring...if that corps wasn't so weird I mean.


Hum...thats intriguing, and now im actually worried...what happened on Batman annual #2 regarding Cass?...and when did Tom King said that?

----------


## millernumber1

> Hum...thats intriguing, and now im actually worried...what happened on Batman annual #2 regarding Cass?...and when did Tom King said that?


In a podcast https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H1y8Jb.

----------


## Assam

> In a podcast https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H1y8Jb.


That reminds me. I saw a potential explanation that is almost definitely better than what the answer is actually going to be: 

"My personal headcanon for why Cass isn’t there in the future Bruce death scene is that he had specifically talked to her beforehand about how he didn’t want her to watch him die, since with her reading body language he didn’t want to hurt her with his last “words.” She fought, of course. He ultimately sent her on a mission elsewhere to keep her busy when he knew the end was near. She was furious. Wouldn’t talk to those who helped him for months."

Bloody brilliant.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> In a podcast https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H1y8Jb.


Thanks!  :Smile:

----------


## Dataweaver

I'm really lazy; got a timestamp?

What I recall was something to the effect that “there's a reason why Cass isn't at the Wake”; not “there's a reason why Cass isn't appearing in any future BatFamiles”. Those are two very different things.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'm really lazy; got a timestamp?
> 
> What I recall was something to the effect that “there's a reason why Cass isn't at the Wake”; not “there's a reason why Cass isn't appearing in any future BatFamiles”. Those are two very different things.


I linked the wrong one. Here's the right one: https://www.hipcast.com/podcast/H6yvTDWN0

Timestamp is about 41 minutes.

The exact quote is: "Cassandra is missing for a reason."

----------


## Dataweaver

…the context being a discussion of the Batman Annual #2 scene. So yeah; it's not “Cass isn't going to be in future Battery Family stuff”; it's “Cass isn't going to attend Bruce's funeral”. Which, while surprising, doesn't necessarily have the same ominous overtones.

----------


## millernumber1

> …the context being a discussion of the Batman Annual #2 scene. So yeah; it's not “Cass isn't going to be in future Battery Family stuff”; it's “Cass isn't going to attend Bruce's funeral”. Which, while surprising, doesn't necessarily have the same ominous overtones.


I don't think that's even the case. Cass isn't at Bruce's deathbed - we have no idea who's at the funeral.

----------


## Assam

> …the context being a discussion of the Batman Annual #2 scene. So yeah; it's not “Cass isn't going to be in future Battery Family stuff”; it's “Cass isn't going to attend Bruce's funeral”. Which, while surprising, doesn't necessarily have the same ominous overtones.


It sort of does considering she hasn't been referenced in Beyond (unless you count there having been multiple Batgirls, which I don't since she hasn't been Batgirl in the current continuity) and we haven't heard where she is in the Tomorrow timeline (I know she was killed by Duella in the original, but that's clearly not what we're working with anymore), which didn't make any sense considering the whole conflict there was caused by Tim feeling the need to become Batman, when he wouldn't have needed to if Cass were around.

----------


## millernumber1

> It sort of does considering she hasn't been referenced in Beyond (unless you count there having been multiple Batgirls, which I don't since she hasn't been Batgirl in the current continuity) and we haven't heard where she is in the Tomorrow timeline (I know she was killed by Duella in the original, but that's clearly not what we're working with anymore), which didn't make any sense considering the whole conflict there was caused by Tim feeling the need to become Batman, when he wouldn't have needed to if Cass were around.


I don't think Beyond is necessarily connected anymore to the main DC continuity, especially since Bat-Tim is NOT the Tim who was Batman Beyond from Future's End, but he's explicitly Tim from the Teen Titans from the pre-Flashpoint continuity.

I still think as long as Tynion is at DC, Cass will be fine. Tynion hasn't, as far as I can remember, killed anyone off, or ever expressed interest in killing people off. Now, if someone way, way up in editorial decides to kill someone off, I don't know if Tynion is quite high enough to buck that, but I don't get the sense that it's coming down the pike. (Cue announcement that Steph is going to die off tomorrow.)

----------


## Dataweaver

If anyone's going to be killed off, it's going to be Clayface. And if that happens, I can see Cass cutting ties out of anguish.

----------


## millernumber1

> If anyone's going to be killed off, it's going to be Clayface. And if that happens, I can see Cass cutting ties out of anguish.


I really don't think Cass will leave Batman, at least. That bond is still really strong.

----------


## Assam

> If anyone's going to be killed off, it's going to be Clayface.


He's most likely dead next issue, yeah. Much as I wish it could be nearly anyone else kicking the bucket...




> And if that happens, I can see Cass cutting ties out of anguish.


I agree with Miller's post above.  Cass is still very close with Bruce and in fact this event will likely be the catalyst for them growing closer. The only one she'll be cutting ties with it Kate, which, hey, works great for me on that end. 

That said, my stance hasn't changed. I'm trying to be optimistic like Blight, but if they do send her off or try _any_ of the other methods they've tried before to get rid of her? I'm dropping every DC book I'm reading and picking up some extra Marvel titles.

----------


## Blight

> He's most likely dead next issue, yeah. Much as I wish it could be nearly anyone else kicking the bucket...
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with Miller's post above.  Cass is still very close with Bruce and in fact this event will likely be the catalyst for them growing closer. The only one she'll be cutting ties with it Kate, which, hey, works great for me on that end. 
> 
> That said, my stance hasn't changed. I'm trying to be optimistic like Blight, but if they do send her off or try _any_ of the other methods they've tried before to get rid of her? I'm dropping every DC book I'm reading and picking up some extra Marvel titles.


You wouldn't be the only one. I'd probably drop every DC Comic save Superman (and that even looks to end if Jurgens is leaving the comic) and Green Arrow.  Marvel already is tempting me with Exiles and Domino. But I digress, I think he'll keep her to the very end of his run (whenever that would be). If he wouldn't then why invest better characterization than everyone else? Take the blue ring. All will be well Assam. All will be well!

----------


## Assam

> You wouldn't be the only one. I'd probably drop every DC Comic save Superman (and that even looks to end if Jurgens is leaving the comic) and Green Arrow.


I _might_ keep reading New Super-Man, but I'd more than likely turn to trade waiting. Other than that the only issues I might pick up would be the returns of characters I love. 




> Marvel already is tempting me with Exiles and Domino.


Planning on trying both of those. X-Men Red also looks really good to me. 




> But I digress, I think he'll keep her to the very end of his run (whenever that would be).


I do think you're right there. Tynion's probably going to get his wish and write till #1000, which is actually only a little over a year away thanks to double shipping. Will definitely be interesting to see where everyone ends up once the run is over. 




> If he wouldn't then why invest better characterization than everyone else?


I'm not sure Tynion realizes that Tim and Kate aren't the characters everyone loves in this book. 




> Take the blue ring. All will be well Assam. All will be well!


In fearful day, in raging night...

----------


## Caivu

> I'm not sure Tynion realizes that Tim and Kate aren't the characters everyone loves in this book.


Heh, speak for yourself.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dataweaver

> Heh, speak for yourself.


Seconded. Not so much with Kate for me; but I'm definitely a Tim fan first and foremost. 

It just so happens that I'm also a fan of Stephanie and Cassandra.

----------


## Assam

> but I'm definitely a Tim fan first and foremost. .


Don't me get wrong, I really like Tim and he's one of my favorites in the Fam...but like many others I can't stand how Tynion writes him. At this point it feels like every issue is a competition between him and Steph to see who can annoy me more.

----------


## Caivu

Some Alvaro Martínez WIP:

Screenshot_20180116-111744.jpg

Clayface is also in this spread. Might be a flashback since Spoiler has her old mask, but since Cass isn't wearing  _her_ mask... who knows?

----------


## Blight

> Some Alvaro Martínez WIP:
> 
> Screenshot_20180116-111744.jpg
> 
> Clayface is also in this spread. Might be a flashback since Spoiler has her old mask, but since Cass isn't wearing  _her_ mask... who knows?


A flashback on how she got her mask?

----------


## Assam

> A flashback on how she got her mask?


My thought was just that she lost her mask again. Seems to happen in every major fight she has in this series.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Caivu

> A flashback on how she got her mask?


She had it when the Knights formed.

----------


## Blight

> She had it when the Knights formed.


Yeah, but Steph has her old mask which she hasn't worn in an entire year. Which suggests flashback. Just going with what I know.

----------


## Assam

Every time I hear about the pitch that was 'Kicks' I forget about it, only to be reminded of it months later and feel annoyed that we didn't get it. 

On a happier note, here's an awesome cosplay by kirkettecosplay:

expressions.jpg

Love the poses and expressions she replicated.

----------


## Blight

Pitch what pitch?

----------


## Assam

> Pitch what pitch?


Gail Simone's first ever pitch to DC was a mini called 'Kicks', which would have starred Cass, Courtney Whitmore (Stargirl) and Mary Marvel. According to Simone, it wasn't picked up because 1) Female lead books were an even harder sell then than they are now and 2) She hadn't quite learned the best way to pitch yet. 

Also according to Simone, there was a scene where Courtney spent two pages telling Cass about bubble gum, who then proceeded to weaponize it. 

That pretty much sums up how much of a tragedy not getting this was.

----------


## Frontier

> Gail Simone's first ever pitch to DC was a mini called 'Kicks', which would have starred Cass, Courtney Whitmore (Stargirl) and Mary Marvel. According to Simone, it wasn't picked up because 1) Female lead books were an even harder sell then than they are now and 2) She hadn't quite learned the best way to pitch yet. 
> 
> Also according to Simone, there was a scene where Courtney spent two pages telling Cass about bubble gum, who then proceeded to weaponize it. 
> 
> That pretty much sums up how much of a tragedy not getting this was.


Why was it called "kicks?"

----------


## Assam

> Why was it called "kicks?"


My first thought was that 'Kicks was short for 'sidekicks' , but none of the three really filled that role so I'm not sure.

----------


## Frontier

> My first thought was that 'Kicks was short for 'sidekicks' , but none of the three really filled that role so I'm not sure.


Well, I guess it depends how you look at it given "sidekick" can be a very relative and general term for a character's role to another, even if I also don't automatically think sidekick for any of those three...

----------


## Blight

> Gail Simone's first ever pitch to DC was a mini called 'Kicks', which would have starred Cass, Courtney Whitmore (Stargirl) and Mary Marvel. According to Simone, it wasn't picked up because 1) Female lead books were an even harder sell then than they are now and 2) She hadn't quite learned the best way to pitch yet. 
> 
> Also according to Simone, there was a scene where Courtney spent two pages telling Cass about bubble gum, who then proceeded to weaponize it. 
> 
> That pretty much sums up how much of a tragedy not getting this was.


And now I just got an idea. An idea that must be shown the light!

----------


## Katana500

> Gail Simone's first ever pitch to DC was a mini called 'Kicks', which would have starred Cass, Courtney Whitmore (Stargirl) and Mary Marvel. According to Simone, it wasn't picked up because 1) Female lead books were an even harder sell then than they are now and 2) She hadn't quite learned the best way to pitch yet. 
> 
> Also according to Simone, there was a scene where Courtney spent two pages telling Cass about bubble gum, who then proceeded to weaponize it. 
> 
> That pretty much sums up how much of a tragedy not getting this was.


I wanna see how she could weaponize bubblegum! I reckon it would hurt if you took it to the eye.

----------


## Rogue Star

> Every time I hear about the pitch that was 'Kicks' I forget about it, only to be reminded of it months later and feel annoyed that we didn't get it. 
> 
> On a happier note, here's an awesome cosplay by kirkettecosplay:
> 
> Attachment 60844
> 
> Love the poses and expressions she replicated.


<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

----------


## El_Gato

> My first thought was that 'Kicks was short for 'sidekicks' , but none of the three really filled that role so I'm not sure.


Hmm, I was wondering why I hadn't seen a post by Assam in a while. Wonder what happened now... Figured I'd stop by Cass' thread since she's Assam's favorite lol. 

Anyway, I hope to see Cass show up on Young Justice soon (please have a cameo in season 3!)

----------


## Katana500

> Hmm, I was wondering why I hadn't seen a post by Assam in a while. Wonder what happened now... Figured I'd stop by Cass' thread since she's Assam's favorite lol. 
> 
> Anyway, I hope to see Cass show up on Young Justice soon (please have a cameo in season 3!)


Aw no what now! With Assam missing in action who will be the one always posting in this thread.

----------


## Blight

It looks like Asami got another suspension sadly. There was a anti-Duke thread not too long ago. Hopefully, the suspension ends soon enough.

----------


## RedBird

marciotakara

----------


## millernumber1

> marciotakara


Lovely. I'm really bummed (though I totally understand why) that Takara turned down another Tec arc.

----------


## Blight

> marciotakara


Heh, he posted it today of all days. NICE. I would love him to do another issue on Tec (that focused on Cassandra of course), but I can fully understand him not doing it again. That's the only downside to Tec. It must be a nightmare for artist's to meet their deadlines.

----------


## Jekyll

> Hmm, I was wondering why I hadn't seen a post by Assam in a while. Wonder what happened now... Figured I'd stop by Cass' thread since she's Assam's favorite lol. 
> 
> Anyway, I hope to see Cass show up on Young Justice soon (please have a cameo in season 3!)


I was wondering the same thing! That’s the only reason I stopped by this thread. What happened?

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

> marciotakara


I REALLY love Takara's Cass. Stunning. Hope to have a commission from him some day.....

----------


## Blight

Another month. Another no sight of a Cass story for April. But there is one thing I realized. #975 will be double-sized just like #950. Which means Cass WILL get a story in that (which will set up her next arc). So there's that happy thought.




> I REALLY love Takara's Cass. Stunning. Hope to have a commission from him some day.....


Do it. I have one sketch cover of Cass. I'm beginning to be tempted to have one of the full-on mask.

----------


## Caivu

Javier Fernandez WIP:

Screenshot_20180123-144224.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Javier Fernandez WIP:
> 
> Screenshot_20180123-144224.jpg


Hmm. It's better than I'm used to from Fernandez (I really, really disliked his work for Nightwing), but...I'm still really unhappy he's on Tec right now.

----------


## adrikito

I saw the sad moment in insidepulse... Kate shooted Basil with Cass looking that moment..

I heard about LADY CLAYFACE in Doomsday Clock... I can´t understand that with another Clay in the evil side why karlo should be evil again..

----------


## Caivu

Today is Cass's birthday!

----------


## millernumber1

> Today is Cass's birthday!


Hooray! (But is it really?  :Wink:  A little Bruce Wayne, Fugitive joke.)

----------


## adrikito

Happy birthday cassandra cain.

----------


## RedBird

Damn, I missed Cass's birthday, but I found some neat art.


raspbearyart


grlwndr


sorscia

----------


## adrikito

Cass is too shy..

Attachment 61316

----------


## RedBird

Robin Cass - sorscia

----------


## millernumber1

> Robin Cass - sorscia


Now that's a really cool design! I'd love to read some stories about this!

----------


## Frontier

> Robin Cass - sorscia


I love it  :Big Grin: .

----------


## adrikito

> Robin Cass - sorscia


I like Cass Robin costume.  :Wink:

----------


## Blight

The good news. Cass is in a new Batman tabletop game that'll be up on Kickstarter late in February:

27545627_1337819432989703_5796019149838654394_n.jpg

27459031_1337819412989705_7706006521240591501_n.jpg


Now the bad news. Tomasi is rumored to be taking over Detective Comics.

----------


## Frontier

> The good news. Cass is in a new Batman tabletop game that'll be up on Kickstarter late in February:
> 
> 27545627_1337819432989703_5796019149838654394_n.jpg
> 
> 27459031_1337819412989705_7706006521240591501_n.jpg


That's cool, even if I wish the weren't using the Orphan costume  :Smile: .



> Now the bad news. Tomasi is rumored to be taking over Detective Comics.


I'll just say that, with 'Tec's sales, I don't see DC replacing Tynion anytime soon.

----------


## OBrianTallent

> Damn, I missed Cass's birthday, but I found some neat art.
> 
> 
> raspbearyart
> 
> 
> grlwndr
> 
> 
> sorscia


I miss Cass' bat costume.

----------


## millernumber1

> Now the bad news. Tomasi is rumored to be taking over Detective Comics.


It is a rumor, but it's the second rumor about Tynion leaving I've heard in two days. I would prefer ANYONE by Tomasi. Even Snyder. Tomasi would write Cass and Steph completely out.




> I'll just say that, with 'Tec's sales, I don't see DC replacing Tynion anytime soon.


Maybe. But they're replacing Tomasi on Superman, and his sales aren't bad. About 10k less than Tynion's on Tec. And Tynion is doing a TON of stuff with Metal and No Justice and the New Age of Heros.

----------


## Blight

> It is a rumor, but it's the second rumor about Tynion leaving I've heard in two days. I would prefer ANYONE by Tomasi. Even Snyder. Tomasi would write Cass and Steph completely out.


That's the great fear. You just know he'd do that given past history with him. Both characters would be in limbo again.




> That's cool, even if I wish the weren't using the Orphan costume .


It's possible she might get a Batgirl variant given Tim was shown in his Robin suit in the game and Barbara was shown as Oracle and Batgirl so far.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's the great fear. You just know he'd do that given past history with him. Both characters would be in limbo again.
> 
> 
> 
> It's possible she might get a Batgirl variant given Tim was shown in his Robin suit in the game and Barbara was shown as Oracle and Batgirl so far.


Does Steph have an appearance in this game?

As for Tomasi - yes, if this is true (which I desperately hope is not the case), it's the WORST case scenario. Steph and Cass need a home.

----------


## Blight

> Does Steph have an appearance in this game?


She hasn't been revealed YET, but Cass (Orphan), Jean-Paul (current costume), Batwoman, and Tim (Robin, but not his RR costume). I think the odds of her being in the game are high.

----------


## oasis1313

Is Cass in any books these days?  I've missed her.

----------


## Caivu

> Is Cass in any books these days?  I've missed her.


Ha ha ha ha.

----------


## millernumber1

> She hasn't been revealed YET, but Cass (Orphan), Jean-Paul (current costume), Batwoman, and Tim (Robin, but not his RR costume). I think the odds of her being in the game are high.


Well, I hope so. Would you post it in the Steph thread if it pops up?  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

> Well, I hope so. Would you post it in the Steph thread if it pops up?


I will, or if any new statues of Cass are revealed too.

----------


## millernumber1

> I will, or if any new statues of Cass are revealed too.


Thanks!  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

I suspect Cass may soon be added to the DC Legends mobile game. Clayface and Tim were recently added, there's a character pack for them in the game's shop called "Gotham Knights", and the Clayface they're using is clearly inspired by the Rebirth version. And one of his gear pieces is a book of Shakespeare.

That all can't be a coincidence, so I'm guessing Cass (and the others) will be released over the rest of the year.

----------


## millernumber1

> I suspect Cass may soon be added to the DC Legends mobile game. Clayface and Tim were recently added, there's a character pack for them in the game's shop called "Gotham Knights", and the Clayface they're using is clearly inspired by the Rebirth version. And one of his gear pieces is a book of Shakespeare.
> 
> That all can't be a coincidence, so I'm guessing Cass (and the others) will be released over the rest of the year.


Oh, man. If they add Steph, I'd have to try that game again.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

> I suspect Cass may soon be added to the DC Legends mobile game. Clayface and Tim were recently added, there's a character pack for them in the game's shop called "Gotham Knights", and the Clayface they're using is clearly inspired by the Rebirth version. And one of his gear pieces is a book of Shakespeare.
> 
> That all can't be a coincidence, so I'm guessing Cass (and the others) will be released over the rest of the year.


Just how recent?

----------


## Caivu

> Just how recent?


Within the past week.

----------


## El_Gato

> Within the past week.


They seem to add two new characters each month. So its only a matter of time until March's characters are revealed.

----------


## millernumber1

> Within the past week.


Someone should add that to the Clayface appreciation thread. Of course, if I were to go on that thread, I'd probably want to turn it into the Katherine Karlo appreciation thread.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

Huh... so in the latest Green Arrow, Red Arrow and Cass now share a common tragedy. A parental figure finding redemption and deciding to drag an elderly woman who manipulated everyone/surprising good fighter to their fiery demise.

----------


## millernumber1

> Huh... so in the latest Green Arrow, Red Arrow and Cass now share a common tragedy. A parental figure finding redemption and deciding to drag an elderly woman who manipulated everyone/surprising good fighter to their fiery demise.


 Hm. That was the least good thing about Batman and Robin Eternal, so...

----------


## millernumber1

UPDATE: Assam DM'd me and said that they should be back on the 18th! Hooray!

----------


## Katana500

> UPDATE: Assam DM'd me and said that they should be back on the 18th! Hooray!


Yay! Assam has been gone for ages!!

----------


## Blight

> Hm. That was the least good thing about Batman and Robin Eternal, so...


It's just so weird when reading Green Arrow and see the EXACT same story element happen almost the same way. Just that the prior person the EVIL elderly woman mortally wounded before wasn't the parental figure. It was the actual kid. Though honestly there was a lot of least good things baout Batman & Robin Eternal. That was just one blimp on the radar.

----------


## adrikito

> UPDATE: Assam DM'd me and said that they should be back on the 18th! Hooray!


In 9 days.. Finally..

----------


## millernumber1

> It's just so weird when reading Green Arrow and see the EXACT same story element happen almost the same way. Just that the prior person the EVIL elderly woman mortally wounded before wasn't the parental figure. It was the actual kid. Though honestly there was a lot of least good things baout Batman & Robin Eternal. That was just one blimp on the radar.


Well, I'm one of the only people you'll find who will defend Batman and Robin Eternal (that I know of). I still think there's lots of good things about it. Lots of bad, too, to be fair, but it was fun.

----------


## Caivu

By Bella Rachlin:

Screenshot_20180209-120933.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> by bella rachlin:
> 
> Screenshot_20180209-120933.jpg


wow.. Amazing work.

----------


## Blight

> Well, I'm one of the only people you'll find who will defend Batman and Robin Eternal (that I know of). I still think there's lots of good things about it. Lots of bad, too, to be fair, but it was fun.



Nah. I enjoyed the comic up until #14. Then the comic lost me. Then got me again when Stephanie, and Cullen showed back up again with Midnighter. But the art during the final battle just lost me. Azrael/Dick got better art treatment than Mother vs. the Robins or Mother vs. Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nah. I enjoyed the comic up until #14. Then the comic lost me. Then got me again when Stephanie, and Cullen showed back up again with Midnighter. But the art during the final battle just lost me. Azrael/Dick got better art treatment than Mother vs. the Robins or Mother vs. Cass.


I think that's a good summary of the high and low points of the story. I also liked the battle at Spyral (because it was basically some extra stories from Grayson  :Smile:  ). The Mother fight was stupid in concept and poorly executed (too many artists, not all of them any good).

----------


## Blight

> I think that's a good summary of the high and low points of the story. I also liked the battle at Spyral (because it was basically some extra stories from Grayson  ). The Mother fight was stupid in concept and poorly executed (too many artists, not all of them any good).


That's the problem with being a long term fan of Cass. You're used to fights drawn by Damion Scott, Ale Garza, Rich Leonardi, and Pop Mhan. They knew how to convey a fight scene quite well. Marcio Takara knew this trick too. Why his opening in #13 is just awing to gaze at. The artist who was used just couldn't compare to that kind of emotion. But it's a rare trick that some artists pull off well. Sadly, the ones we got for that issue so did not.

----------


## millernumber1

> That's the problem with being a long term fan of Cass. You're used to fights drawn by Damion Scott, Ale Garza, Rich Leonardi, and Pop Mhan. They knew how to convey a fight scene quite well. Marcio Takara knew this trick too. Why his opening in #13 is just awing to gaze at. The artist who was used just couldn't compare to that kind of emotion. But it's a rare trick that some artists pull off well. Sadly, the ones we got for that issue so did not.


I'm still really bitter that we didn't either get a full issue by Carlo Pagulayan or get Tony Daniel to return. Daniel isn't quite as great as Takara, but he started the series, and would have been nice to see him come back. But Scot Eaton is just one of the blobbiest artists DC has working for them now - like Trevor McCarthy in the early 2000s, but without any of McCarthy's kinetic energy.

----------


## Blight

> I'm still really bitter that we didn't either get a full issue by Carlo Pagulayan or get Tony Daniel to return. Daniel isn't quite as great as Takara, but he started the series, and would have been nice to see him come back. But Scot Eaton is just one of the blobbiest artists DC has working for them now - like Trevor McCarthy in the early 2000s, but without any of McCarthy's kinetic energy.


I knew Daniel wasn't going to be in it for the long run. What we got of him was nice. His Cass improved greatly from when he originally did her in "Titans East" (not counting that other Dr. Light arc since it was Rose posing as Cass).

----------


## millernumber1

> I knew Daniel wasn't going to be in it for the long run. What we got of him was nice. His Cass improved greatly from when he originally did her in "Titans East" (not counting that other Dr. Light arc since it was Rose posing as Cass).


I don't know the full demands of schedulling, but I would think that an editor would want to try to make sure that their "lead" artist for a major project was schedulled so they could provide artistic continuity for the beginning and end of a series. Maybe the snowball effect and external demands are too great for editors to actually do this, but I was annoyed that Justice League stole both Batman Eternal artists before they could do the last issue of each series.

Daniel, for all that he's not my favorite artist in the Gotham stable, did a fine job, and I do appreciate that he's someone who definitely gets better at his art as time goes on.

----------


## Rac7d*

her codename should be Aphonia

----------


## adrikito

What a shame that* Assam* is not here yet... I wanted his opinion about this image(I like Cass glasses):

batgirls.jpg

They are Steph, Barbara and Cass.. Despite that barbara is blonde(less than Steph).. The artist confirmed that in deviantart..

----------


## millernumber1

> What a shame that* Assam* is not here yet... I wanted his opinion about this image(I like Cass glasses):
> 
> batgirls.jpg
> 
> They are Steph, Barbara and Cass.. Despite that barbara is blonde(less than Steph).. The artist confirmed that in deviantart..


Oooh, where is that posted? I really like it!

----------


## adrikito

> oooh, where is that posted? I really like it!


deviantart.

----------


## Assam

*YAAAAAAAAAAAAAWN*

Oh man that was a Hell of a nap.




> And now I just got an idea. An idea that must be shown the light!


Still curious what you meant by this. I figured you were working on fanart or something. 




> Hmm, I was wondering why I hadn't seen a post by Assam in a while. Wonder what happened now... Figured I'd stop by Cass' thread since she's Assam's favorite lol.





> Aw no what now! With Assam missing in action who will be the one always posting in this thread.





> Hopefully, the suspension ends soon enough.





> I was wondering the same thing!  What happened?


You know, I was gonna make an "Aww, you care about me?" joke, but honestly, between you guys and people on  a couple other threads expressing this sentiment, this was actually pretty good for my self-esteem. 




> It looks like Asami got another suspension sadly. There was a anti-Duke thread not too long ago. .


I'll have you know that I am not a fairly decent Avatar character.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Also, the anti-Duke thread had nothing to do with my ban and, in fact, I only settled on a feeling of 'dislike' toward the character over the last month. 




> That’s the only reason I stopped by this thread.


Considering my recommendations seem to treat you pretty well, maybe you should check out the run I view as the best thing DC's ever published. I'm just saying, the whole Puckett run is collected in 3 very nice trades and will almost certainly make you a fan. 




> Today is Cass's birthday!





> Hooray! (But is it really?  A little Bruce Wayne, Fugitive joke.)





> Happy birthday cassandra cain.


Glad some of you remembered  :Smile: 




> The good news. Cass is in a new Batman tabletop game that'll be up on Kickstarter late in February:


I was debating over getting the game after seeing this, but I've decided against it. LOVE that Cass is included at all obviously, but between the high price point, the fact that I'd rarely get to play the game and the box art actively disgusting me, reminding me of all the BatFam art which excludes her, making me not even want it on my shelf, it's a pass for me. 




> I'll just say that, with 'Tec's sales, I don't see DC replacing Tynion anytime soon.


I don't believe the rumor either. And I can only hope we're right. 




> What a shame that Assam is not here yet... I wanted *his* opinion about this image(I like Cass glasses):
> 
> batgirls.jpg


Seen it before and I like it! Also, still not a guy.

----------


## Agent Z

Welcome back, Assam.

----------


## Assam

> Welcome back, Assam.


Thanks dude.

----------


## El_Gato

> Thanks dude.


You sure missed a lot of interesting threads, at least in the DC section lol. I'm sure you'll add your two cents to some of them of course xD

----------


## Assam

> You sure missed a lot of interesting threads, at least in the DC section lol. I'm sure you'll add your two cents to some of them of course xD


Take a look. I'm already working through some of these.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Katana500

> Take a look. I'm already working through some of these.


Yay! Glad to see you back Assam.

You sure have been gone awhile. Look forward to seeing your comments on all the different threads!

----------


## Blight

> Still curious what you meant by this. I figured you were working on fanart or something. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was debating over getting the game after seeing this, but I've decided against it. LOVE that Cass is included at all obviously, but between the high price point, the fact that I'd rarely get to play the game and the box art actively disgusting me, reminding me of all the BatFam art which excludes her, making me not even want it on my shelf, it's a pass for me.


I'm being mum on that. For now at least.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I'm getting the game. The box art isn't an issue given Selina, Jean-Paul, Ra's, and others were neglected too. The fact that Cass is in the game and they've been teasing we might get a Batgirl variant too (they've been liking anyone asking for it on their Facebook group and played coy on the issue). So if it's part of the rewards? I'll do it cause i know my friends and I will eat a game like this up. We love the ablity of a game on this scale because it means not one game will be the same twice.

----------


## Assam

> I'm being mum on that. For now at least.


Ooh. Mysterious.  :Wink: 




> The fact that Cass is in the game and they've been teasing we might get a Batgirl variant too (they've been liking anyone asking for it on their Facebook group and played coy on the issue). So if it's part of the rewards?* I'll do it cause i know my friends and I will eat a game like this up. We love the ablity of a game on this scale because it means not one game will be the same twice.*


I'm a tabletop gamer too and it does sound really cool, but I know my friends and this isn't something we'd play often.One group has zero interest in comics and the other prefers simpler games.

----------


## Blight

> Ooh. Mysterious. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a tabletop gamer too and it does sound really cool, but I know my friends and this isn't something we'd play often.One group has zero interest in comics and the other prefers simpler games.



My friends and I have a big interest in comics. One of them has the DC Deckbuilding Game and one of the complaints that me and another friend had is it just doesn't hit that niche. It's fun, it was made during the New 52. So all those awful designs are the "main" character sheets. This? This reminds me of "Last Night on Earth" but with Batman. Already I can foresee my friends and I getting into some legendary scenarios.

----------


## adrikito

YOU ARE FINALLY HERE... WELLCOME *ASSAM*.

You returned with a new look(avatar)..

----------


## Assam

> My friends and I have a big interest in comics. One of them has the DC Deckbuilding Game and one of the complaints that me and another friend had is it just doesn't hit that niche. It's fun, it was made during the New 52. So all those awful designs are the "main" character sheets. This? This reminds me of "Last Night on Earth" but with Batman. Already I can foresee my friends and I getting into some legendary scenarios.


Sounds like you'll be having fun.  :Smile: 




> YOU ARE FINALLY HERE... WELLCOME *ASSAM*.


Thanks dude. Some good stuff happened while I was gone. An an example, for reasons which are of course _completely_ unrelated to the topic of this thread, I started taking ballet classes...

...whether or not I'll be implementing the moves into my fighting style remains to be seen.  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> You returned with a new look(avatar)..


Yup, it's Rhyme from The World Ends with You, both my favorite video game and my favorite fictional story; I love it almost as much as Cass. I decided to change the avatar in celebration of TWEWY being ported to the Switch, which gives me hope that we will one day see a sequel. And I chose Rhyme because of the five main characters, she's the only one you never get to play as and I'm really hoping you get the chance to in the port's extra content.

----------


## Assam

Got around to writing this during my ban: 

As requested by Dataweaver, the following is an outline for how I might have done Battle for the Cowl  in a way that includes Cass and sets up a new status quo for her, as it should have, and the aftermath of it.  I'm also gonna be trying to make a decent story, which BftC wasn't by any stretch. The rules I'm setting for myself: 1) Nothing I include here can get in the way of what Morrison 's Batman and Robin was. I don't hold Morrison in any high regard, but he was going to do his Dick and Damian, Batman and Robin book one way or the other. 2) I have to keep it 3 over-sized issues. 3) I can make as many changes as I want, but the core conflict must remain the same. (Truthfully, that's ALL I'm keeping.) 

Issue #1- Open on Black Mask and his men in the middle of an operation. They start getting picked off, it looking like Bruce is somehow back, but when 'Batman' takes down Black Mask, we see it's Jason in his Bat suit. Just in general, we're scrapping EVERYTHING to do with how Jason was written in this book because Daniel and Morrison had no idea what they were doing with him. Let's just say he'd act like he did under Winnick's pen. We then cut to the Batcave where Tim, Dick and Alfred are standing around, discussing what they're going to do now that Bruce is gone.  Dick is unsure about their plan, but Tim and Alfred assure him “She's ready.” Cut to upstairs as Cass is about to go through the entrance to the Batcave. Before she heads down though, Babs and Steph show up and here we get the reunions we were deprived of. The three then head down and she's welcomed by Tim as the new Batman.  She's still sad about Bruce, especially since she'd just been adopted right before he disappeared. However, she's still confident about taking up the cowl.  That night while on patrol, Tim finds Jason in his Batsuit  killing some criminals. Jason trolls him for a bit, egging him on and Tim tries to take him down. Despite his best efforts though, while he does get in some good licks, Jason beats him. 

Issue #2- Open on a scene of Damian (whose also gonna be written in a way in line with their character here)  in some trouble and getting assitance from Dick. We get some more of Dick's feelings about the idea of him being Batman and some foreshadowing for the two about the ultimate outcome of this story. Cut to the Batcave where Tim's beating has taken him out of commission but he's still trying to make light of it, that is a duty of Robin after all. But Cass isn't having any of that. He's killing people and disrespecting the Bat. Babs calls and tells them she's tracked Jason down. Cass goes off after him and asks them not to call anyone else, wanting to handle this herself. When she gets there, Jason, keeping his distance, starts a conversation, expressing surprise that she's the one wearing the cowl. Cass lists off things that Bruce had told her about him; angry as she is, she's also sad that he's chosen this path and would optimially just want to set him straight. We'd then get a brief clash of their ideals, but that would mostly be set-up for a potential future story. Jay then lists off certain things he's heard about her. They're all impressive or flattering things until the last one: that Drake beat her in one punch. Hard cut to Jason being sent flying thorugh several walls. Back in the Batcave, Alfred talks to Tim. He asks him if he's planning on being Cass's Robin once he's recoverd, Tim's answer alluding to what his actual plans are. Elsewhere, Dick gets a call from Babs, who, worried about her, tells Dick where Jason is and sends him over as back-up. Cass proceeds to beat the crap out of Jason, the later barely able to do anything against her. However, what he IS able to do is lead the fight where he wants, disabling her with a trap he has set-up. The issue ends with Jason giving the set-up for a one-liner Dick delievers as he arrives. 

Issue #3- Dick and Jason fight. The two are shown to be nearly equal , but Dick ultimately wins out. He tells him to leave Gotham and stop wearing the Bat or the next time they see him, they will take him in. Last warning.  Later in the cave, Dick arrives back to see a grinning Cass and Tim. He wants to know what's going on when Alfred comes in with his new Batsuit. Dick is confused and tells Cass that she shouldn't feel unworthy just because she got taken down; Batman isn't flawless. Cass tells him that that has nothing to  do with it. Tim explains his theory that Bruce is still alive and Cass agrees with him. She still wants to be Batman and has no doubts that when Bruce is really gone, she'll be the one to take over. For now though, she and Tim are leaving Gotham to find answers about what really happened to him. (Dataweaver, I know you're a Tim fan first so I know you'll appreciate this taking the place of the scene in Red Robin where Dick and Damian kick Tim out while he's on the verge of a mental breakdown.)  She knows this isn't really what Dick wants, but she doesn't want Tim to be alone and Dick still firmly believes that Bruce is really dead. Dick reluctantly agrees, resigning that he'll have to find his own meaning for the Bat. Tim jokes about Dick needing a new Robin and mockingly suggests Damian,  which Dick looks to actually be considering, much to Tim's horror. They say goodbye and the book ends with the new Batman staring over Gotham City. 

From there, Cass would appear in the first issue of Steph's book in a similar way to how she did originally, the two of them having a scene fighting together. This time though, she's explaining what her and Tim are planning and there's a much more optimistic tone to things. She leaves the Batgirl suit with Steph and leaves it ambiguous why (Since her becoming Batman was shown as being the plan, the later retcon that Steph becoming Batgirl was Bruce's idea could actually work.) Steph is a bit disappointed since she and Babs just started getting to see her again, but Cass promises that she'll be back soon. 

Cass would be Tim's co-star for the first year of Red Robin, appearing alongside him as well during the Batgirl crossover. (That's where I'd have the 'Team Batgirl' name created, even if Cass isn't sticking around to be a part of it.) Then following Bruce's return, Cass would only be a recurring character in Red Robin, and make regular guest appearances across the rest of the line, but her new main home, if she couldn't have her own book, would be with the Birds of Prey,  now serving as the third main Batman and the team's field leader (We know Simone actually wanted to use Cass so this kinda fits too.)

----------


## Dataweaver

I might tweak it to be a little less talky; when possible, show don't tell. And I might adjust some of the stuff in the final issue; while I wasn't fond of Dick taking the Robin costume away from Tim, I did like the fact that at least for the first few issues of Red Robin, Tim was alone in his belief that Bruce was alive. So I'd be more inclined to end Battle for the Cowl with Tim just up and disappearing, leaving the Robin costume behind along with a note saying “Bruce is alive!” (Why leave the costume behind? Because he's never seen “Robin” as a permanent gig, and it's time to move on.)

Everyone reacts to that more or less as they originally did, except Cass. Cass confronts the others with something to the effect of “what if he's right?”, and leaves on that note. We next see her in Batgirl #1, more or less as originally depicted there, but ending by telling Stephanie that she's got something to do.

I'd also try to make Stephanie a bigger part of Battle for the Cowl, demonstrating her frustration that she's _still_ not being taken seriously and further setting her up for where we see her next in Batgirl #1.  Possibly even have Tim include something in his not about wanting Stephanie to have the Robin costume — something that Dick rejects in favor of giving it to Damian, who “needs it more”.

Then, somewhere around Red Robin #4 or so, after firmly establishing that Tim will not give up on his search for Bruce even if the whole world is against him (but might be losing his mind), he gets a sense that someone's trying to track him down. A little investigation turns up Cass, who he at first assumes is there to bring him home just like everyone else. But as he's trying to push her away, she says that she's there to help him find Bruce. She's not convinced that he's alive the way Tim is; but she hopes he is. And _if_ he is, she wants to find him, too. For the rest of the “search for Bruce” story arc, she's true to her word and we see the dynamic that Bruce saw when he pictured Tim and Cass jointly taking over for him. 

That said, the book _is_ called “Red Robin”, and Cass' role in the book is more supporting character than costar. She gets her moments to shine, but ultimately it's still Tim's quest: the wham points around which the plot turns are his.

Concurrently with this, we start laying the groundwork for Cass to transition over to Birds of Prey. After Bruce is recovered, Cass more or less drops out of _Red Robin_ and instead features in Birds of Prey.

----------


## Assam

So we've got good news and bad news. 

The good news is that, for what I think is the first time, Cass and Steph are mentioned together in a solicit! 

DETECTIVE COMICS #980

Written by James Tynion IV, art by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, cover by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.
"Batmen Eternal" part five! The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there's nothing Batman can do to stop it...until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!
32 pages, $2.99, in stores on May 9.

Anyone else thinking they're gonna see future versions of themselves as Batman and Nightwing, or is that just wishful thinking on my part? 

As for the bad news...yeah, Tynion's done. 

DETECTIVE COMICS #981

Written by James Tynion IV, art and cover by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, cover by Eddy Barrows, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.
"Batmen Eternal" finale! The unbelievable conclusion of James Tynion IV's Batman epic! It's the last stand of the Gotham Knights, fighting a monster they helped inspire...and a destiny they won't accept! What will become of the greatest crime-fighting team Gotham City ever saw?
32 pages, $2.99, in stores on May 23.

Also for some reason, Steph isn't on the cover of the last issue alongside every other member.

----------


## millernumber1

> So we've got good news and bad news. 
> 
> The good news is that, for what I think is the first time, Cass and Steph are mentioned together in a solicit! 
> 
> DETECTIVE COMICS #980
> 
> Written by James Tynion IV, art by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, cover by Alvaro Martinez and Raul Fernandez, variant cover by Rafael Albuquerque.
> "Batmen Eternal" part five! The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there's nothing Batman can do to stop it...until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!
> 32 pages, $2.99, in stores on May 9.
> ...


Where are these posted?

----------


## Assam

> Where are these posted?


http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...41&postcount=1

----------


## millernumber1

> http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...41&postcount=1


Thanks!

Even though my heart is breaking...  :Frown:

----------


## Assam

> Thanks!
> 
> Even though my heart is breaking...


Looks like in June we'll either see a new Gotham Knights book or I'll have the money for a few more Marvel books.

----------


## adrikito

> Looks like in June we'll either see a new Gotham Knights book or I'll have the money for a few more Marvel books.


Don´t worry... I think that Cass will be the only survivor of the initial team.. 

With a new knights... She will be my only reason for see this again, one future Cass saga but no more.. I am sure that Harper(new confimed knight, sure) will be mentioned as Cass best friend again..  :Mad:

----------


## Assam

Given DC's recent attitude on the subject I'd be surprised if it happened, but I'm seeing people suggest that the thing Cass and Steph will see will be the Pre-Flashpoint universe and specifically, them as Batgirl. Obviously I would cry if this would happen and...there actually is a case to be made that it might, despite the circumstances. The run is ending and the two will need a home. Birds of Prey is ending, DC is going into a state of flux in general and with Batgirl not selling well, it might be heading toward a relaunch. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I do think there's at least a chance this could end up happening.

----------


## millernumber1

> Given DC's recent attitude on the subject I'd be surprised if it happened, but I'm seeing people suggest that the thing Cass and Steph will see will be the Pre-Flashpoint universe and specifically, them as Batgirl. Obviously I would cry if this would happen and...there actually is a case to be made that it might, despite the circumstances. The run is ending and the two will need a home. Birds of Prey is ending, DC is going into a state of flux in general and with Batgirl not selling well, it might be heading toward a relaunch. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I do think there's at least a chance this could end up happening.


I think it's pretty clear that May is seeing a lot of endings, so the June solicits will reveal quite a bit about the future. Fingers crossed!

----------


## Assam

By lisa-jam

skating cass.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> By lisa-jam
> 
> skating cass.jpg


I saw that, and their Tim and Steph piece - really lovely!

----------


## Dataweaver

I just hope that they get Cass a new codename before the Gotham Knights leave Detective.

----------


## scary harpy

> I just hope that they get Cass a new codename before the Gotham Knights leave Detective.


What new codename?

----------


## adrikito

Cass is really the best friend that you can have..

Attachment 62467

----------


## Assam

> I just hope that they get Cass a new codename before the Gotham Knights leave Detective.


New codename, new costume, the adoption...so much we may not get now.  :Mad: 




> What new codename?


Tynion said last Summer that Orphan was temporary. Hopefully it changes to literally anything else.

----------


## adrikito

> By lisa-jam
> 
> skating cass.jpg


Seems that she is enjoying this.

----------


## Frontier

> By lisa-jam
> 
> skating cass.jpg


Beautiful! Cass looks really pretty here  :Smile: .

----------


## Caivu

Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming Li'l Gotham collected edition:

dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg

----------


## Zainu

> Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming Li'l Gotham collected edition:
> 
> dbac4cde-22c6-4873-8700-0aac7e3085f1.jpg


Is that baby Cass sitting on Clayface's shoulder?

----------


## Assam

> Is that baby Cass sitting on Clayface's shoulder?


No, that's Annie from BtaS. Cass is in her Black Bat suit in between Steph and Helena.

----------


## Assam

Maybe this is just a me thing getting pleasure from this, but I'm loving seeing all the Cass fans come out of the woodwork in the wake of the news about Joss leaving the Batgirl movie. I know it's not gonna go anywhere, but it's still nice to see the support. Naturally plenty of Steph and Kate fans are calling for their girls too,but  at least from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Tumblr, Cass is the one being mentioned the most, by far. And I love it.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Blight

> Dustin Nguyen's cover for the upcoming Li'l Gotham collected edition:
> 
> Attachment 62500


Heh... with all the controversy over recoloring Steph cameo in that. It's hilarous that Nguyen has the last laugh on whoever forced Cass/Steph from that comic.




> Maybe this is just a me thing getting pleasure from this, but I'm loving seeing all the Cass fans come out of the woodwork in the wake of the news about Joss leaving the Batgirl movie. I know it's not gonna go anywhere, but it's still nice to see the support. Naturally plenty of Steph and Kate fans are calling for their girls too,but  at least from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Tumblr, Cass is the one being mentioned the most, by far. And I love it.


I was laughing manically when I found out James Tynion is back on Twitter and one of his first tweets back was liking and reblogging Psu's Cass/Basil sketch. Psu did it! They broke his heart like he broke our's!  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Heh... with all the controversy over recoloring Steph cameo in that. It's hilarous that Nguyen has the last laugh on whoever forced Cass/Steph from that comic.


That probably is my favorite part about this.  :Big Grin: 




> I was laughing manically when I found out James Tynion is back on Twitter and one of his first tweets back was liking and reblogging Psu's Cass/Basil sketch. Psu did it! They broke his heart like he broke our's!


Didn't even catch that. Nice!

----------


## Caivu

By David Yardin:

Screenshot_20180224-011809.jpg

----------


## El_Gato

> Maybe this is just a me thing getting pleasure from this, but I'm loving seeing all the Cass fans come out of the woodwork in the wake of the news about Joss leaving the Batgirl movie. I know it's not gonna go anywhere, but it's still nice to see the support. Naturally plenty of Steph and Kate fans are calling for their girls too,but  at least from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Tumblr, Cass is the one being mentioned the most, by far. And I love it.


Facebook too. And now that you mentioned it, there's a debate going on in the DCEU thread about Cass and Barbara.

----------


## Katana500

See the TEC 980 Solicit. Do we have any idea what Steph and Cass might see!? Sounds cool! 

"“Batmen Eternal” part five! The worst possible future for Gotham City has been locked into place, and there’s nothing Batman can do to stop it…until Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain catch a glimpse of something they never would have thought possible!

----------


## Assam

> By David Yardin:
> 
> Screenshot_20180224-011809.jpg


Really slick! 




> See the TEC 980 Solicit. Do we have any idea what Steph and Cass might see!? Sounds cool!


So far all I've seen are my crackpot theory of 'They're gonna see future versions of themselves as Batman and Nightwing' and the sadly even MORE crackpot theory of 'They're gonna see their Pre-Flashpoint selves'.

----------


## Katana500

Im still hoping that Cass gets adopted before Tynion leaves his run! 

Hm them seeing a future version of themselves would definitely be possible with all the wierd timeline stuff going on right now!

----------


## nonsense man

Everything is unsettled right now because of the weird time line stuff going on and people going to new books too.  It will not be settled officially until that watchman crossover ends a year later or two if they continue the slow pace

----------


## Celgress

> By David Yardin:
> 
> Screenshot_20180224-011809.jpg


top notch  :Cool:

----------


## Assam

Vavitsara draws so much cute batsib stuff. If you're on Tumblr, definitely follow them. 

group hug.jpg

movie night.jpg

----------


## Blight

So looking over the Monolith Batman tabletop Kickstarter. Stephanie and Duke aren't playable in the game even though they're on the cover to it! Cass is (Damian and Jason were the other hero stretch goals). Also David Cain is a stretch goal (in his Orphan guise). That's fascinating. They also smashed thru the stretch goals with them being over 1,000,000 at this moment (500,000 was what they set out for).

----------


## Rac7d*

> Im still hoping that Cass gets adopted before Tynion leaves his run! 
> 
> Hm them seeing a future version of themselves would definitely be possible with all the wierd timeline stuff going on right now!


adopted by catwoman?

----------


## Assam

> So looking over the Monolith Batman tabletop Kickstarter. Stephanie and Duke aren't playable in the game even though they're on the cover to it! Cass is (Damian and Jason were the other hero stretch goals). Also David Cain is a stretch goal (in his Orphan guise). That's fascinating. They also smashed thru the stretch goals with them being over 1,000,000 at this moment (500,000 was what they set out for).


So like...was the artist just not a fan of Cass? Oye

Also a shame about Steph not being in the game. Glad Cass is part of the main game and not the expansions though. Bah, I'm being tempted again! :Wink: 

EDIT:Actually, it's still possible they are in the game. Azrael, despite being confirmed, isn't on the page, meaning he's a stretch goal, so they might be as well.

----------


## millernumber1

> So looking over the Monolith Batman tabletop Kickstarter. Stephanie and Duke aren't playable in the game even though they're on the cover to it!


That's incredibly frustrating.

----------


## Blight

> That's incredibly frustrating.


It is. But the setup? The ablity to play Cass in an actual DC tabletop game with my friends? Yeah.... This is so bought. I just wonder why Azrael was teased but never shown in the stretch goals.

----------


## Assam

> It is. But the setup? The ablity to play Cass in an actual DC tabletop game with my friends? Yeah.... This is so bought. I just wonder why Azrael was teased but never shown in the stretch goals.


Like I said in my post, the stretch goals are still coming. Currently they're working up toward including Penguin's gang. It's entirely possible Duke and Steph are later stretch goals.

----------


## millernumber1

> Like I said in my post, the stretch goals are still coming. Currently they're working up toward including Penguin's gang. It's entirely possible Duke and Steph are later stretch goals.


They hinted at it when I tweeted at them. But I don't even know how much they have to hit to get it...

----------


## Blight

> They hinted at it when I tweeted at them. But I don't even know how much they have to hit to get it...


Heh Monolith just admitted the game is so popular they can't update the stretch goals fast enough.

----------


## RedBird

> Vavitsara draws so much cute batsib stuff. If you're on Tumblr, definitely follow them. 
> 
> Attachment 62701
> 
> Attachment 62702


They also made this  :Smile: 


Vavitsara

Anyways, the latest TEC had some pretty good moments, *spoilers:*
and seeing Cass in Wayne Manor, helping Alfred and generally speaking seeming like a family member again did make me smile  :Smile: . Also cheers to the fact that Babs was the one to call out the Knights for somewhat pushing Cass to the side and ignoring her needs in the first place.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## adrikito

> They also made this 
> 
> 
> Vavitsara
> 
> Anyways, the latest TEC had some pretty good moments, *spoilers:*
> and seeing Cass in Wayne Manor, helping Alfred and generally speaking seeming like a family member again did make me smile . Also cheers to the fact that Babs was the one to call out the Knights for somewhat pushing Cass to the side and ignoring her needs in the first place.
> *end of spoilers*


Excellent fanart..

WOW.. Cass and Damian first encounter surprised me..

----------


## millernumber1

> WOW.. Cass and Damian first encounter surprised me..


It was pretty much perfect, I thought.

----------


## Assam

> It was pretty much perfect, I thought.


I had..._problems_ with how Cass was used in this issue (see: The 'Tec thread), but that bit there was great.

----------


## Rac7d*

I haven ben paying much attention to detective comcis, because it had seemed like a dumping ground for wayward and lsot bat chracters, but  if I am understanding correctly its been 2 years since batman eternal 2 and Cass has been living in squalor,  and only spending time with the Batfam at night? why hasn't bruce adopted her yet? or Stephanie and harper take her in? why is she living alone.

then again I guess Mama catwoman complicates things

----------


## millernumber1

> I haven ben paying much attention to detective comcis, because it had seemed like a dumping ground for wayward and lsot bat chracters, but  if I am understanding correctly its been 2 years since batman eternal 2 and Cass has been living in squalor,  and only spending time with the Batfam at night? why hasn't bruce adopted her yet? or Stephanie and harper take her in? why is she living alone.
> 
> then again I guess Mama catwoman complicates things


I mean...Tec is the book for characters who don't have a solo or team book already. That's not a "dumping ground" unless you think these characters are dumps.

It's probably been no more than six months since Batman and Robin Eternal - Tim's only been "dead" for a few months. Cass has her own apartment that Bruce gave her, but she doesn't sleep there. She's chosen to sleep at the theater on her own - though I do think that someone should have done something. Steph and Harper both let her stay with them when she wanted, but Harper is now in Monstertown, and Steph has her own Stephcave. I'm sure both of them would welcome Cass, but I think they believe she was being better looked after by Bruce and Kate.

----------


## Blight

> I had..._problems_ with how Cass was used in this issue (see: The 'Tec thread), but that bit there was great.


I did not. She already made her viewpoint quite clear last issue on where she stands on Kate. This was a mending issue for her. You can tell she's pent up as shown with her flooring Damian. She got much needed R&R with Alfred. And Barbara is quite right to a degree on her. She should be with someone close not hanging around in the rafters at an opera house as a phantom. Also I don't know if it was intentional or not, but living room Cass/Alfred watched TV? The same room where "THE ENTIRE FAMILY" watched stuff in Tomasi's runs on Nightwing and B&R. Intentional or not, made me smirk as well because her being in that particular room.

----------


## millernumber1

> I did not. She already made her viewpoint quite clear last issue on where she stands on Kate. This was a mending issue for her. You can tell she's pent up as shown with her flooring Damian. She got much needed R&R with Alfred. And Barbara is quite right to a degree on her. She should be with someone close not hanging around in the rafters at an opera house as a phantom. Also I don't know if it was intentional or not, but living room Cass/Alfred watched TV? The same room where "THE ENTIRE FAMILY" watched stuff in Tomasi's runs on Nightwing and B&R. Intentional or not, made me smirk as well because her being in that particular room.


Oooh, nice catch! I personally hope that Cass finds a home in the Manor at the end of Tec.  :Smile:

----------


## CPSparkles

> Excellent fanart..
> 
> WOW.. Cass and Damian first encounter surprised me..


sign..... and just when I was starting to like Cass. Well Tim and Damian are pals so win some lose some.

----------


## Assam

> I did not.


And that's fair. Like I said, most of my issues were in the subtext, which obviously not everyone else would agree with or care about. 




> She got much needed R&R with Alfred.


Seeing Alfred continue his streak of always being there for Cass was a definite highlight. 




> She should be with someone close not hanging around in the rafters at an opera house as a phantom.


That whole thing with Cass as the phantom of theater, her very own Christine included, is still one of the best gags in this run. 




> Also I don't know if it was intentional or not, but living room Cass/Alfred watched TV?  The same room where "THE ENTIRE FAMILY" watched stuff in Tomasi's runs on Nightwing and B&R. Intentional or not, made me smirk as well because her being in that particular room.


Ooooooh! Great catch! 




> I personally hope that Cass finds a home in the Manor at the end of Tec.


Should we add this to the list of things that need to happen in the next six issues?  :Wink: 

I actually do think the adoption, the codename change and moving into the manor are all very much still in the cards. Primarily because of Babs aking the role of the fans briefly, basically going "Hey Bruce, why aren't you taking care of her? Bruce, why isn't she living here? Bruce, why the Hell are you letting her call herself Orphan; that's horrible!" 




> sign..... and just when I was starting to like Cass..


Oh, don't be silly. She's in mourning and incredibly tense and its already been established back in B&R:E that she freaks out when touched without notice

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/JosephPIllidge/s...35215895474177

Some interesting stuff here at least I didn't know about. The team had to fight for Cass to be Asian (not surprising at all) and it was actually O'Neil leading the charge on that end. Just another reason to love the guy. 

Also, Chris Conroy is apparently a big Cass fan. I feel like I might have seen that somewhere before but it's still good to see him showing support and just the fact there IS someone in editorial whose got her back. 

Unrelated but Simone also just tweeted one of the best things I've ever seen on the site in response to being asked about the Batgirl movie:

https://twitter.com/GailSimone/statu...02409623216128

----------


## Daniel22

> https://twitter.com/JosephPIllidge/s...35215895474177
> 
> Some interesting stuff here at least I didn't know about. The team had to fight for Cass to be Asian (not surprising at all) and it was actually O'Neil leading the charge on that end. Just another reason to love the guy. 
> 
> Also, Chris Conroy is apparently a big Cass fan. I feel like I might have seen that somewhere before but it's still good to see him showing support and just the fact there IS someone in editorial whose got her back. 
> 
> Unrelated but Simone also just tweeted one of the best things I've ever seen on the site in response to being asked about the Batgirl movie:
> 
> https://twitter.com/GailSimone/statu...02409623216128


That's really funny. I'd prefer a Barbara movie but I'd also be happy with a Cassandra led movie.

Just let Simone write it. I'd prefer DC just say "write the Batgirl movie you want to write" and stay out of her way. There's no way that story wouldn't be awesome.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> https://twitter.com/JosephPIllidge/s...35215895474177
> 
> Some interesting stuff here at least I didn't know about. The team had to fight for Cass to be Asian (not surprising at all) and it was actually O'Neil leading the charge on that end. Just another reason to love the guy. 
> 
> Also, Chris Conroy is apparently a big Cass fan. I feel like I might have seen that somewhere before but it's still good to see him showing support and just the fact there IS someone in editorial whose got her back. 
> 
> Unrelated but Simone also just tweeted one of the best things I've ever seen on the site in response to being asked about the Batgirl movie:
> 
> https://twitter.com/GailSimone/statu...02409623216128


Seems like DC always had a struggle to make poc.

----------


## adrikito

> sign..... and just when I was starting to like Cass. Well Tim and Damian are pals so win some lose some.


*
I thought that this would mean nothing for a superson fan..  Damian is humiliated more times and in worst ways... Dietrich mentioned that*

... This is better than receive one punch of one kid(superboy) with more power than one human adult man..

OK... I am not against this because... If one character get my respect(Cass case)... Damian should be humiliated in one of the worst ways possible for made me hate this.. and I think that I would hate the writer not the character..




> https://twitter.com/JosephPIllidge/s...35215895474177
> 
> Some interesting stuff here at least I didn't know about. The team had to fight for Cass to be Asian (not surprising at all) and it was actually O'Neil leading the charge on that end. Just another reason to love the guy. 
> 
> Also, Chris Conroy is apparently a big Cass fan. I feel like I might have seen that somewhere before but it's still good to see him showing support and just the fact there IS someone in editorial whose got her back. 
> 
> Unrelated but Simone also just tweeted one of the best things I've ever seen on the site in response to being asked about the Batgirl movie:
> 
> https://twitter.com/GailSimone/statu...02409623216128


With Cass, we know that one Batgirl film in burnside is Impossible.. I support this..

----------


## Assam

Something that just occurred to me: Whatever Tynion's original plan was, ending his run with the adoption would actually be perfect. 'Batman' at this point is a franchise with 'family' as one of its core themes, but this run specifically has been all about exploring different family dynamics and relations. So closing out with Bruce officially adding a new member to his family would be fitting.

----------


## Katana500

> Something that just occurred to me: Whatever Tynion's original plan was, ending his run with the adoption would actually be perfect. 'Batman' at this point is a franchise with 'family' as one of its core themes, but this run specifically has been all about exploring different family dynamics and relations. So closing out with Bruce officially adding a new member to his family would be fitting.


Im really hoping for that to be the case. Maybe that's what Cass could glimpse in the 980 solicit adoption papers! We can dream

----------


## Frontier

> Something that just occurred to me: Whatever Tynion's original plan was, ending his run with the adoption would actually be perfect. 'Batman' at this point is a franchise with 'family' as one of its core themes, but this run specifically has been all about exploring different family dynamics and relations. So closing out with Bruce officially adding a new member to his family would be fitting.


I'd love that  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

So with what we know now, how likely do y'all think my theory about the Bruce and Cass focus Tynion promised being a sub-plot throughout the first four Tim and Kate dominated issues of BE is?

----------


## millernumber1

> So with what we know now, how likely do y'all think my theory about the Bruce and Cass focus Tynion promised being a sub-plot throughout the first four Tim and Kate dominated issues of BE is?


Given his promises about Steph...umm............

----------


## Assam

> Given his promises about Steph...umm............


What did he actually say he was planning on doing with her?

----------


## millernumber1

> What did he actually say he was planning on doing with her?


If I remember correctly, he said she was going to be a big part of an arc at the end of the year (2017).

I will flatly say that she was not. You can make an argument that she's done some significant things, but she is not a big part of any of the arcs that have come out in the second half of 2017. Or this year, either.

----------


## Assam

> If I remember correctly, he said she was going to be a big part of an arc at the end of the year (2017).
> 
> I will flatly say that she was not. You can make an argument that she's done some significant things, but she is not a big part of any of the arcs that have come out in the second half of 2017. Or this year, either.


Oye. It really does seem like whatever mix-ups happened behind the scenes with The Button just screwed up Tynion's plans and the removal of him from the book has only made things worse. 

If these next 4 issues really are just Tim and Kate's rodeo, I'm most likely gonna dislike them as much as I have the last literal year's worth of issues.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Oye. It really does seem like whatever mix-ups happened behind the scenes with The Button just screwed up Tynion's plans and the removal of him from the book has only made things worse. 
> 
> If these next 4 issues really are just Tim and Kate's rodeo, I'm most likely gonna dislike them as much as I have the last literal year's worth of issues.


Well. I know you didn't like 975, but I thought it was awesome. So I don't think that even him screwing up with Steph more will make me hate the others. But then again, I think I probably went into this run liking Kate and Tim a bit more, so I was inclined to be interested in both of them.

I am really curious to see the legacy of Tynion on Tec. I think Basil and Cass will definitely be a strong legacy, and I think it really depends on how Tim shakes out afterwards for that. Because Tynion basically just took him away, and then put him back. He didn't really accomplish anything there, other than some fun scenes. Luke and Jean-Paul will...still be around. Sure.

But other than Cass and Basil (which I think is a solid one!), I think the big thing will be The Colony. And that seems pretty divisive. (And I say this as someone who really likes the whole Colony plotline and concept.)

----------


## Assam

> I probably went into this run liking Kate and Tim a bit more, so I was inclined to be interested in both of them.


I mean yes, you probably do like Tim more than I do, but he's still my favorite male Robin and among my favorite Bats. It's just Tynion's version I hate...okay not _just_ Tim HAS had a lot of crap writing over the years. 




> I think Basil and Cass will definitely be a strong legacy


Assuming Cass continues to  appear in new stories, I give it two years max before someone either brings Basil back either without his memories and/or just totally evil as a villain for her OR has one of the other Clayfaces show up pretending to be him to screw with her head. While predictable, I do think both plots have potential, particularly the latter. 




> Luke and Jean-Paul will...still be around.


Will they though? Will they? Bats don't always go out via death or reboot, quite a few have just vanished with no explanation and sadly, I could see that happening with these two quite easily. 




> I think the big thing will be The Colony. And that seems pretty divisive. (And I say this as someone who really likes the whole Colony plotline and concept.)


Hating the Colony is probably one of the few things I have in common with a lot of Kate's fandom in regards to her world. The nicest thing I can say about them is that at least they aren't the Victim Syndicate or FutureTim. How sad is it that in over 40 issues, Ascalon was the best antagonist we got?

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean yes, you probably do like Tim more than I do, but he's still my favorite male Robin and among my favorite Bats. It's just Tynion's version I hate...okay not _just_ Tim HAS had a lot of crap writing over the years. 
> 
> Assuming Cass continues to  appear in new stories, I give it two years max before someone either brings Basil back either without his memories and/or just totally evil as a villain for her OR has one of the other Clayfaces show up pretending to be him to screw with her head. While predictable, I do think both plots have potential, particularly the latter.  
> 
> Will they though? Will they? Bats don't always go out via death or reboot, quite a few have just vanished with no explanation and sadly, I could see that happening with these two quite easily.


See, I have loved Tynion's Tim since Batman Eternal. He was loyal, intelligent (not just hacking everything), and the right amount of cocky. I have enjoyed Tec Tim, but not quite as much - though I appreciate that he's actually a main character here.

I personally hope that Clayface stays dead for five years minimum. I'm still really mad about Lincoln March coming back within a year of Batman Eternal. I like my favorite storylines to have consequences. Unless those consequences are "Steph is dead or won't come back."

As for Luke and Jean-Paul - they will have experience and relationships that other writers or Tynion can pull on in the future, and unlike Jean-Paul at the end of his own series, won't be dead. And Tynion has restored Tam Fox back to a useable character, so Luke and the rest of the Fox family will almost certainly always be around because of Lucius. Much as I hate it, limbo is MUCH better than death.

----------


## Assam

> As for Luke and Jean-Paul - they will have experience and relationships that other writers or Tynion can pull on in the future, and unlike Jean-Paul at the end of his own series, won't be dead. And Tynion has restored Tam Fox back to a usable character, so Luke and the rest of the Fox family will almost certainly always be around because of Lucius. Much as I hate it, limbo is MUCH better than death.


I mean yes, there'll be that option, but JPV is only even back because of Tynion and how often is the Fox Family even seen? I'm just saying when was the last time we saw Michael or Calvin? Or the Batmen of All Nations, David included? Pre-Flashpoint Onyx disappeared without a trace and Bette would vanish for years at a time, as seems to be the case again now. I agree that limbo is always better than death (RIP Orpheus) but I'll be shocked if these two don't go almost completely ignored in years to come.

----------


## millernumber1

> I mean yes, there'll be that option, but JPV is only even back because of Tynion and how often is the Fox Family even seen? I'm just saying when was the last time we saw Michael or Calvin? Or the Batmen of All Nations, David included? Pre-Flashpoint Onyx disappeared without a trace and Bette would vanish for years at a time, as seems to be the case again now. I agree that limbo is always better than death (RIP Orpheus) but I'll be shocked if these two don't go almost completely ignored in years to come.


I mean, I think you're probably right - though I'm waiting for the 19th at least until making any real predictions - but I think there's more hope than not that we'll get something with them in the next few years.

----------


## Assam

I think I might have to remove the first part of my quote. Just learned that someone out there named their _kid_ after Cass.  :EEK!:

----------


## Frontier

> I think I might have to remove the first part of my quote. Just learned that someone out there named their _kid_ after Cass.


Cool! Cassandra isn't an entirely uncommon name (if not exactly very common) but deliberately being named after Cassandra Cain is awesome  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Far as we know, Tynion isn't working with Martinez on any projects besides 'Tec. 

https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...73852624195584

Potentially new designs for Cass and Steph for #980?

----------


## millernumber1

> Far as we know, Tynion isn't working with Martinez on any projects besides 'Tec. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesTheFourth/s...73852624195584
> 
> Potentially new designs for Cass and Steph for #980?


I saw that. It sounded more like Martinez is on whatever title Tynion is on after NOPE JUSTICE to me.

But...let me think. It's quite possible that this is for the last two issues of Tec (and since we are pretty hopeful that Tynion's going to do something new with Cass in terms of name, that could very well be a new costume as well. WITH A FREAKING BAT?)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I saw that. It sounded more like Martinez is on whatever title Tynion is on after NOPE JUSTICE to me.
> 
> But...let me think. It's quite possible that this is for the last two issues of Tec (and since we are pretty hopeful that Tynion's going to do something new with Cass in terms of name, that could very well be a new costume as well. WITH A FREAKING BAT?)


Maybe reinstate her as Black Bat? It certainly sounds better than Orphan.

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe reinstate her as Black Bat? It certainly sounds better than Orphan.


People always tell us that DC can't do that because another comics company has a copyright on Black Bat, a pulp hero from a long time ago.

I say screw it.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> People always tell us that DC can't do that because another comics company has a copyright on Black Bat, a pulp hero from a long time ago.
> 
> I say screw it.


Well it sure didn't stop them from giving Cassandra Cain that name before Flashpoint hit why should that stop them now?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it sure didn't stop them from giving Cassandra Cain that name before Flashpoint hit why should that stop them now?


No. Which is why I say screw it.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No. Which is why I say screw it.


Maybe before Tynion leaves he should reinstate Cassandra as Black Bat as a parting gesture. That's a change no new writer can ignore.

----------


## millernumber1

> Maybe before Tynion leaves he should reinstate Cassandra as Black Bat as a parting gesture. That's a change no new writer can ignore.


I'm all in favor of it. (And bringing Steph back. Obviously.  :Smile:  )

----------


## Aioros22

> Well it sure didn't stop them from giving Cassandra Cain that name before Flashpoint hit why should that stop them now?


It didn`t have a company currently publishing stories of the character. 

Black Bat is a trick pony because not only there`s a character already with the name, said character has been butting heads with Batman hence (both came out at the same year) since both look pretty much the same, sans ears and one being blind.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I'm all in favor of it. (And bringing Steph back. Obviously.  )


Well maybe they can't give Cassandra the name Black Bat because the original character using it currently being published. but returning Stephanie will have to do as a parting gesture.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> It didn`t have a company currently publishing stories of the character. 
> 
> Black Bat is a trick pony because not only there`s a character already with the name, said character has been butting heads with Batman hence (both came out at the same year) since both look pretty much the same, sans ears and one being blind.


Black Bat is getting new stories now?

----------


## millernumber1

> Well maybe they can't give Cassandra the name Black Bat because the original character using it currently being published. but returning Stephanie will have to do as a parting gesture.


I don't see why we can't have another name, though. ShadowBat, or something cool like that (I really thought League of Shadows was going to change her name to Shadow something.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't see why we can't have another name, though. ShadowBat, or something cool like that (I really thought League of Shadows was going to change her name to Shadow something.)


Well it will be down to Tynion to pick a name and quite frankly you are right they should be able to pick another one. So maybe giving Cassandra a new name and costume and returning Stephanie would be nice parting gesture.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well it will be down to Tynion to pick a name and quite frankly you are right they should be able to pick another one. So maybe giving Cassandra a new name and costume and returning Stephanie would be nice parting gesture.


Exactly! We need both in good shape!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Exactly! We need both in good shape!


Just hope Tynion has enough time to do both.

----------


## Aioros22

> Black Bat is getting new stories now?


In latest years, Dynamite have been publishing new material for popular Pulp era characters. 

Defenders of The Earth and Phantom, Zorro, Lone Ranger, The Green Hornet, Savage, Tarzan, Carter, Holmes,  James Bond, The Spider, Shadow, Princess of Mars, the Black Fury (aka the original catwoman/black cat) and the Robert E Howard barbarians. 

And Black Bat. I Might be forgetting a few.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> In latest years, Dynamite have been publishing new material for popular Pulp era characters. 
> 
> Defenders of The Earth and Phantom, Zorro, Lone Ranger, The Green Hornet, Savage, Tarzan, Carter, Holmes,  James Bond, The Spider, Shadow, Princess of Mars, the Black Fury (aka the original catwoman/black cat) and the Robert E Howard barbarians. 
> 
> And Black Bat. I Might be forgetting a few.


I didn't think anyone would have any interest in those old guys save for a few once their successors the superheroes took over the market. Well Black Bat is off limits for Cassie then.

----------


## Aioros22

> I didn't think anyone would have any interest in those old guys save for a few once their successors the superheroes took over the market. Well Black Bat is off limits for Cassie then.


The old guys are the foundation of the superhero, man.

Theyre also cooler cats in general.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> The old guys are the foundation of the superhero, man.
> 
> Theyre also cooler cats in general.


Oh I know about that I just never saw some of them like Bond and Holmes or even Zorro as superheroes because you know they don't wear tights then again some heroes don't. And I love Holmes actually.

----------


## Aioros22

Well, they`re the archetypes of the superhero genre with elements lifted straight up and the same era gaves us the first and best skintight vigilante of all timessss. 

Lee Falk`s The Phantom. Eat that batboy.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, they`re the archetypes of the superhero genre with elements lifted straight up and the same era gave us the first and best skintight vigilante of all timessss. 
> 
> Lee Falk`s The Phantom. Eat that batboy.


Well that is true I actually liked the Phantom when I was a kid he intrigued me. And Mandrake the Magician seemed like an early John Zatara.

----------


## Caivu

Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and...

Edit: Fernandez contacted me and asked me to take the images down, so I am.

----------


## millernumber1

> Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and...
> 
> Attachment 63295


Looks interesting...

----------


## Assam

> Raül Fernandez streamed some of the inking of the #980 cover, and...
> 
> Attachment 63295


I'm breathing...I'm breathing...and bracing myself for disappointment. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

----------


## Caivu

IMPORTANT

If you've spread those screenshots elsewhere, please take them down. Fernandez contacted me to remove them, so I am, and that goes for anywhere else.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

I hope this doesn't mean she becomes Batgirl 2/3  :Confused:

----------


## Assam

> IMPORTANT
> 
> If you've spread those screenshots elsewhere, please take them down. Fernandez contacted me to remove them, so I am, and that goes for anywhere else.


Deleted them on my Tumblr and working to get the people who reblogged it to delete it as well. 




> I hope this doesn't mean she becomes Batgirl 2/3


My ideal situation is a good original name with being Batgirl as part of her history...but ANYTHING is better than Orphan.

----------


## millernumber1

> My ideal situation is a good original name with being Batgirl as part of her history...but ANYTHING is better than Orphan.


People say that, but then we get "Pantaloons" as her code name and nobody's happy...

 :Wink:

----------


## Caivu

> Deleted them on my Tumblr and working to get the people who reblogged it to delete it as well.


Thank you.

----------


## Blight

Huh.. that's awesome.

----------


## adrikito

> Thank you.


I have both images.. But are only for my PC... They never will see the light again..  :Wink:  

THANKS FOR SHARING THE IMAGES.

----------


## Aioros22

> Well that is true I actually liked the Phantom when I was a kid he intrigued me. And Mandrake the Magician seemed like an early John Zatara.


Man I hate Zatara with passion. Nothing but a carbon copy without any of the charm or cool character. I do love his daugther tho, she's something else. 

Dr Strange at least had something of its own.

----------


## Katana500

> I'm breathing...I'm breathing...and bracing myself for disappointment. 
> 
> AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!


Aw no! Did i miss something cool and secret! Im always too slow lol!

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Man I hate Zatara with passion. Nothing but a carbon copy without any of the charm or cool character. I do love his daugther tho, she's something else. 
> 
> Dr Strange at least had something of its own.


Well no one really uses John Zatara for anything but backstory these days Zatanna has a lot more going for her as a character she's even one of the few who ventured into the Vertigo world. Dr. Strange and Doctor Fate a re very similar though aren't they?

----------


## millernumber1

> Aw no! Did i miss something cool and secret! Im always too slow lol!


The cover to Tec 980 has Steph and Cass on it with some hints that their history as Batgirls might be honored - the inker was streaming his inking process, but he asked that no images from the stream be shared.

----------


## Katana500

> The cover to Tec 980 has Steph and Cass on it with some hints that their history as Batgirls might be honored - the inker was streaming his inking process, but he asked that no images from the stream be shared.


Ah right thank you! Certainly exciting! Looks like Cass and Steph fans have alot to look forward too!  :Smile:

----------


## millernumber1

> Ah right thank you! Certainly exciting! Looks like Cass and Steph fans have alot to look forward too!


Given the many, many times DC has screwed over Cass and Steph with regards to their Batgirl legacy...I'm hoping that all this excitement doesn't make Dan Didio or someone poke his head over into Jamie Rich's office and say, "NOPE NO BATGIRL FOR CASS AND STEPH NEVER" like he did with Lil Gotham and Smallville and the Orphan costume... (I use Didio as a symbol for all editors and muckity mucks who hate Steph and Cass. For all I know, it wasn't him.)

----------


## Assam

> Given the many, many times DC has screwed over Cass and Steph with regards to their Batgirl legacy...I'm hoping that all this excitement doesn't make Dan Didio or someone poke his head over into Jamie Rich's office and say, "NOPE NO BATGIRL FOR CASS AND STEPH NEVER" like he did with Lil Gotham and Smallville and the Orphan costume... (I use Didio as a symbol for all editors and muckity mucks who hate Steph and Cass. For all I know, it wasn't him.)


Does this mean if we end up not getting this we should blame Caivu?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

More seriously, I DO think it would be in our best interests to avoid further talking about this in public channels.

----------


## millernumber1

> Does this mean if we end up not getting this we should blame Caivu?


Huh? I don't get it.

----------


## Assam

> Huh? I don't get it.


They're the one who spread this around. If not for them, there wouldn't be any hubbub.

----------


## millernumber1

> They're the one who spread this around. If not for them, there wouldn't be any hubbub.


Oh, I see. No, that would be like blaming Batman for one of his villains for killing someone. (Which I don't do.)  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> Oh, I see. No, that would be like blaming Batman for one of his villains for killing someone. (Which I don't do.)


I know, I was just joking, hence the emoji. 

I blame Arkham

----------


## millernumber1

> I know, I was just joking, hence the emoji. 
> 
> I blame Arkham


Ahaha. Nice.

Arkham is indeed the real problem. And the DA, and the entire broken justice system in Gotham. Unless you embrace the idea that Batman should kill because "it works" or something, I think the real problem is what happens after Batman does his job.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Ahaha. Nice.
> 
> Arkham is indeed the real problem. And the DA, and the entire broken justice system in Gotham. Unless you embrace the idea that Batman should kill because "it works" or something, I think the real problem is what happens after Batman does his job.


Killing was something Batman used to do back then can you imagine if DC continued to let him use lethal force?

----------


## adrikito

> Given the many, many times DC has screwed over Cass and Steph with regards to their Batgirl legacy...



I think, that maybe I should forget these 2 images.. For now...

----------


## Assam

Deleted Post

----------


## adrikito

I erased the bad part of your comment that I quoted... 

Make the same with my comment that you quoted and no one of us will be banned..

----------


## millernumber1

> Killing was something Batman used to do back then can you imagine if DC continued to let him use lethal force?


Then we'd just have the Punisher, I think. I don't think he'd be quite as compelling - because the Punisher, much as I do enjoy many versions of him, isn't as compelling.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Then we'd just have the Punisher, I think. I don't think he'd be quite as compelling - because the Punisher, much as I do enjoy many versions of him, isn't as compelling.


It sure won't be easy to give a killer substance because their moral compass is turned upside down. but DC is did fine with both Huntress and Red Hood and that's no easy feat.

----------


## millernumber1

> It sure won't be easy to give a killer substance because their moral compass is turned upside down. but DC is did fine with both Huntress and Red Hood and that's no easy feat.


Well, to be fair, Huntress's body count is very, very limited, and Red Hood's dropped really drastically once he hit the n52 (I believe). No more duffel bags full of heads for Jason!

If Batman were occasionally lethal, as Jacob and Kate are arguing for in the Colony...I don't know. Do we have an example of a big superhero who does kill, but only occasionally in extreme circumstances?

----------


## Assam

> Red Hood's dropped really drastically once he hit the n52 (I believe).


Nah, it didn't drop till Rebirth. 




> No more duffel bags full of heads for Jason!


I kinda want that to be a piece of 3D scenery for Gotham City Chronicles.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well, to be fair, Huntress's body count is very, very limited, and Red Hood's dropped really drastically once he hit the n52 (I believe). No more duffel bags full of heads for Jason!
> 
> If Batman were occasionally lethal, as Jacob and Kate are arguing for in the Colony...I don't know. Do we have an example of a big superhero who does kill, but only occasionally in extreme circumstances?


Well Jason in Post-Crisis was written with more nuance when he returned back from the dead he at least wouldn't harm children later writers just didn't get his character and made him kill happy because that's all they saw. There is Wonder Woman who only kills in extreme cricumstances and it was part of her character when Post-Crisis was first established.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nah, it didn't drop till Rebirth.  
> 
> I kinda want that to be a piece of 3D scenery for Gotham City Chronicles.


Oh, dear, don't give them ideas. They just added Green Arrow, and you KNOW Ollie's going to be a stretch goal before Steph. (STILL MAD)

I am surprised that n52 Jason was still kill-happy - I thought Bruce was working with him closely in Batman Inc, and I don't see how he could do that if Jason is still filling the duffels.




> Well Jason in Post-Crisis was written with more nuance when he returned back from the dead he at least wouldn't harm children later writers just didn't get his character and made him kill happy because that's all they saw. There is Wonder Woman who only kills in extreme cricumstances and it was part of her character when Post-Crisis was first established.


Ah, that's an excellent point. Wonder Woman is a big exception to the no-kill rule - but they've never done a full story exploring that (Rucka started to, but was kicked off the book before he could finish it).

----------


## Assam

> Oh, dear, don't give them ideas. They just added Green Arrow, and you KNOW Ollie's going to be a stretch goal before Steph. (STILL MAD)


I hadn't even seen that. Damn. Couldn't even go with the better Green Arrow. 

I imagine much like they paired up Harper and Kate, it's gonna be a wait before we get both Steph and Duke. 




> I am surprised that n52 Jason was still kill-happy - I thought Bruce was working with him closely in Batman Inc, and I don't see how he could do that if Jason is still filling the duffels.


First issue of RHatO had FakeRoy and Jason mowing people down. Far as I'm aware, there was never a story that explained why and when Jason had joined the Batfamily.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Ah, that's an excellent point. Wonder Woman is a big exception to the no-kill rule - but they've never done a full story exploring that (Rucka started to, but was kicked off the book before he could finish it).


Seriously not even George Perez who established it in the first place did a story involving Wonder Woman killing? Well there is the time Diana killed Maxwell Lord because she had no other choice that does qualify as killing in extreme circumstances and that ended with her being put on trial and fracturing her relationship with the rest of the Trinity even though Batman didn't care that she killed Medusa on screen.

----------


## millernumber1

> I hadn't even seen that. Damn. Couldn't even go with the better Green Arrow. 
> 
> I imagine much like they paired up Harper and Kate, it's gonna be a wait before we get both Steph and Duke. 
> 
> First issue of RHatO had FakeRoy and Jason mowing people down. Far as I'm aware, there was never a story that explained why and when Jason had joined the Batfamily.


Ugh. I'm still so mad that Harper was released before Steph. SERIOUSLY? And Duke will almost certainly be out first as well.

Wow, I didn't realize that the first issue of RHatO was EVEN WORSE than all the articles were saying. Man.

I'm pretty sure that Morrison using Jason as a huge part of Bruce's plan in Batman Inc is supposed to be part of how he's part of the family again.




> Seriously not even George Perez who established it in the first place did a story involving Wonder Woman killing? Well there is the time Diana killed Maxwell Lord because she had no other choice that does qualify as killing in extreme circumstances and that ended with her being put on trial and fracturing her relationship with the rest of the Trinity even though Batman didn't care that she killed Medusa on screen.


I don't know much about Perez's run. I try to read it, and I just don't get into it. I'm a Rucka fan through and through.

Yes, I was referencing the Maxwell Lord killing in my previous post - but Rucka was forced to leave the title before he could complete the story he was trying to tell with that. The trial was written several years later by a different author (Marc Andreyko in Manhunter).

As for Medusa, I know Caivu disagrees with me on this, but Medusa isn't human, she's a monster who will never stop murdering, and can't be rehabilitated.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I don't know much about Perez's run. I try to read it, and I just don't get into it. I'm a Rucka fan through and through.
> 
> Yes, I was referencing the Maxwell Lord killing in my previous post - but Rucka was forced to leave the title before he could complete the story he was trying to tell with that. The trial was written several years later by a different author (Marc Andreyko in Manhunter).
> 
> As for Medusa, I know Caivu disagrees with me on this, but Medusa isn't human, she's a monster who will never stop murdering, and can't be rehabilitated.


You haven't well can't say I blame you because some parts according to others don't read too well and I've read some of Perez's run and I found myself annoyed with some areas that were basically dead weight or boring like the subplots involving Etta Candy being worried about her weight and that Steve wouldn't like her because she didn't look as good as Diana. And this weird, unnecessary story where Diana goes back home to learn that Steve's mother is the reason why she has a Latin name to establish a sibling relationship between Diana and Steve who was sixty years old. But it failed because she spent too much time away from Steve. But there is some good stuff the Kapatelis women and honestly the more I thought about the run's  intention to sue Etta and Steve but make them boring as possible it made me think why did he include them at all when their roles were non-existent.

And I see wow things were going crazy at DC back then I can't believe it took so long before Diana could sort out killing Maxwell Lord. Years is a long time for a friendship to be ruined. Well Joker kind fall under that category since he also will never stop murdering so I kind of see where Caivu is going with this but honestly portrayals of characters are often different when they are written by other people so this is just a flaw that I wish could be waived away as that Batman being from parallel world.

----------


## Assam

> Ugh. I'm still so mad that Harper was released before Steph. SERIOUSLY? And Duke will almost certainly be out first as well.
> 
> Wow, I didn't realize that the first issue of RHatO was EVEN WORSE than all the articles were saying. Man.


Come to think of it, unlike Duke and Steph, JPV's sculpt was already revealed, so we may see him before either of them. 

I've read the first arc of the Nu52 RHatO. It IS even worse than people were saying at the time.

----------


## adrikito

> Come to think of it, unlike Duke and Steph, JPV's sculpt was already revealed, so we may see him before either of them. 
> 
> I've read the first arc of the Nu52 RHatO. It IS even worse than people were saying at the time.


I started with the comics the first time that Batman Eternal was mentioned(searching for information about Cass and Steph, before start the first Eternal.. that gave me high hopes in both characters before saw them) and fortunatelly, I never read certain horrible stories... 

I saw the last 5 chapters of red hood/outlaws.. I know that Starfire was horribly sexualized in that comic... She is sexy, but she is more acceptable as a character after this with the start of Starfire serie and now in Teen Titans..

But unfortunatelly, I read all Red Hood/Arsenal, hating in all moment Joker Daughter..

----------


## Agent Z

> Ugh. I'm still so mad that Harper was released before Steph. SERIOUSLY? And Duke will almost certainly be out first as well.
> 
> Wow, I didn't realize that the first issue of RHatO was EVEN WORSE than all the articles were saying. Man.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Morrison using Jason as a huge part of Bruce's plan in Batman Inc is supposed to be part of how he's part of the family again.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know much about Perez's run. I try to read it, and I just don't get into it. I'm a Rucka fan through and through.
> ...


Medusa isn't human but she isn't less capable of rehabilitation than a regular human. And if you're going to use that logic, then there is even less reason for the Joker to still be alive.

----------


## Aahz

> I'm pretty sure that Morrison using Jason as a huge part of Bruce's plan in Batman Inc is supposed to be part of how he's part of the family again.


But the whole thing was poorly done, Morrison didn't really gave it the screen time it would have deserved and it was anyway poorly coordinated with Death of the Family and RHatO.

----------


## RedBird

> No more duffel bags full of heads for Jason!


Actually, thats still canon.

----------


## millernumber1

> Come to think of it, unlike Duke and Steph, JPV's sculpt was already revealed, so we may see him before either of them. 
> 
> I've read the first arc of the Nu52 RHatO. It IS even worse than people were saying at the time.


True. And since JPV is classic (even though Steph predates him by a few months in 1992), and Knightfall is profoundly important to the Batman world, I don't begrudge him at all.




> Medusa isn't human but she isn't less capable of rehabilitation than a regular human. And if you're going to use that logic, then there is even less reason for the Joker to still be alive.


Um. In what way do you see Medusa a capable of rehabilitation. As for Joker, he at least started human, and I think the law classifies him as human. Human society would never classify Medusa as human - she's either a monster, or a ruler, but never the same species or able to coexist peacefully with humans.




> But the whole thing was poorly done, Morrison didn't really gave it the screen time it would have deserved and it was anyway poorly coordinated with Death of the Family and RHatO.


You mean like everything in Batman Inc volume 2?  :Smile: 

Poorly done or no, I do think that was significant in terms of Jason being massaged back into the family.




> Actually, thats still canon.


I didn't mean to say it's not canon, I meant to say that he's not doing that anymore.

----------


## Assam

Some really pretty art by yellowis4happy on Tumblr

yellowis4happy.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> Some really pretty art by yellowis4happy on Tumblr
> 
> yellowis4happy.jpg


thanks for the image.

----------


## Assam

Cass is safe for at least another few months! 

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/ba...over-exclusive

I've brought this up here before but Hill is a big fan of Cass and has said he'd love to write a series about her. This is very good news.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cass is safe for at least another few months! 
> 
> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/ba...over-exclusive
> 
> I've brought this up here before but Hill is a big fan of Cass and has said he'd love to write a series about her. This is very good news.


Exciting news! (Hopefully Duke will improve with a new writer.)

Reading that, does it sound like he's the ongoing writer, or is this an interstitial arc like Shea Fontana on Wonder Woman?

----------


## Assam

> Exciting news! (Hopefully Duke will improve with a new writer.)
> 
> Reading that, does it sound like he's the ongoing writer, or is this an interstitial arc like Shea Fontana on Wonder Woman?


It SEEMS like a fill-in arc, but you never know. Like the author of the article suggests though, maybe this could be leading to a new Outsiders book. And if Hill's writing, I'd fully expect him to carry over Cass alongside Jefferson (and possibly Duke).

----------


## millernumber1

> It SEEMS like a fill-in arc, but you never know. Like the author of the article suggests though, maybe this could be leading to a new Outsiders book. And if Hill's writing, I'd fully expect him to carry over Cass alongside Jefferson (and possibly Duke).


Outsiders would seem to fit Duke with his powers more. And I liked Dixon with Cass on Outsiders a lot, so I'd totally be up for that.

But it does seem like it's a fill-in arc at least for Tec, even if Hill has a spin off?

----------


## Aioros22

> Oh, dear, don't give them ideas. They just added Green Arrow, and you KNOW Ollie's going to be a stretch goal before Steph. (STILL MAD)
> 
> I am surprised that n52 Jason was _still kill-happy_ - I thought Bruce was working with him closely in Batman Inc, and I don't see how he could do that if Jason is still filling the duffels.


They got to a compromise because the duffels bag thing done in UTRH was the only point he went awol and his whole journey since New52 started was to mature from that.

----------


## adrikito

> Cass is safe for at least another few months! 
> 
> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/ba...over-exclusive
> 
> I've brought this up here before but Hill is a big fan of Cass and has said he'd love to write a series about her. This is very good news.


What a shame that D..ke is one Big obstacle for me...  :Mad:  I will see your reviews, *Assam*... If you praise Cass role, I will see that..

----------


## Frontier

> Exciting news! (Hopefully Duke will improve with a new writer.)
> 
> Reading that, does it sound like he's the ongoing writer, or is this an interstitial arc like Shea Fontana on Wonder Woman?


The solicits, title, and writer make me think this is going to serve as a fill-in arc for Tomasi's run _and_ setup for a new Outsiders book.

----------


## HandofPrometheus

So if a new outsiders launches with the same team shown in Metal, Cass may have a spot. Metamorpho is on the Terrifics and probably won't be on this team and Katana is on the Suicide Squad who doesn't seem to be leaving anytime (poor girl). I wouldn't mind if Cass takes Katana spot. I want to see Halo interact with Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> So if a new outsiders launches with the same team shown in Metal, Cass may have a spot. Metamorpho is on the Terrifics and probably won't be on this team and Katana is on the Suicide Squad who doesn't seem to be leaving anytime (poor girl). I wouldn't mind if Cass takes Katana spot. I want to see Halo interact with Cass.


Cass and Katana have been on the same team before, though.  :Smile:

----------


## HandofPrometheus

> Cass and Katana have been on the same team before, though.


Really? Didn't know then. I've only read classic Outsiders  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## millernumber1

> Really? Didn't know then. I've only read classic Outsiders


Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders 1-10. It was glorious!

----------


## RedBird

> I didn't mean to say it's not canon, I meant to say that he's not doing that anymore.


ah, gotcha. My bad.




> Cass is safe for at least another few months! 
> 
> http://www.denofgeek.com/us/books/ba...over-exclusive
> 
> I've brought this up here before but Hill is a big fan of Cass and has said he'd love to write a series about her. This is very good news.


_
'Who can Batman trust to guide them? They need a teacher...and Black Lightning fits the bill!'_

Can't say I'm too thrilled that it still feels like Bruce is still pawning Cass off to other people instead of him taking charge for her himself, but I admit, I am excited to see Black Lighting. And if Hill is a fan of Cass, at least it means there's someone who will try to do her justice.

----------


## RedBird

pentapoda

Brain freeze

----------


## Assam

> So if a new outsiders launches with the same team shown in Metal, Cass may have a spot. Metamorpho is on the Terrifics and probably won't be on this team and Katana is on the Suicide Squad who doesn't seem to be leaving anytime (poor girl). I wouldn't mind if Cass takes Katana spot. I want to see Halo interact with Cass.


Actually kind of a shame Rex is taken. I could see the nature of his powers reminding Cass of Basil and making for some good drama. Katana I'm not huge on but that could have more to do with having read limited material of her's (and no one should be forced to be part of the Harley Brigade in Suicide Sqaud). Halo I barely know the first thing about(the original Outsiders run is on my 'to read' list)  What about her would bounce of Cass well? 




> Chuck Dixon's Batman and the Outsiders 1-10. *It was glorious!*


To each their own.  :Stick Out Tongue:  (Cass and Tatsu's scenes together _were_ very good though) 




> _
> 'Who can Batman trust to guide them? They need a teacher...and Black Lightning fits the bill!'_
> 
> Can't say I'm too thrilled that it still feels like Bruce is still pawning Cass off to other people instead of him taking charge for her himself, but I admit, I am excited to see Black Lighting. And if Hill is a fan of Cass, at least it means there's someone who will try to do her justice.


It's just solicits so I'm not gonna get too worried yet. What I am a bit worried about is Cass not getting more BatFam interaction. Ideally, she'd get to be on the Outsiders AND be a part of a new Batgirl book with Babs and Cass, and, something I never thought I'd say, I hope Batman is actually on the new Outsiders team. Just so the two could have more time to interact, whether or not the adoption happens at the end of Tynion's run.

Also, cute pic.

----------


## Agent Z

> Um. In what way do you see Medusa a capable of rehabilitation. As for Joker, he at least started human, and I think the law classifies him as human. Human society would never classify Medusa as human - she's either a monster, or a ruler, but never the same species or able to coexist peacefully with humans.


Medusa was human before she was turned into a gorgon. She was by all accounts capable of coexisting with humans. The DCU has plenty of non humans who peacefully coexist with humans like the Kryptonians, Martian Manhunter, Red Tornado and Wonder Woman's minotaur friends Ferdinand. 

The Joker, meanwhile, laughs at the idea of peaceful coexistence.

----------


## adrikito

Hogwarts Batfamily:

hogwarts batfamily.jpg

Source(there are more images):

https://lizziebrayson.tumblr.com/pos...e-dick-grayson

----------


## heyevaxx

This makes me very excited for Bryan Hill writing my girl Cass!

*"Im really excited to work with Cassie. Especially in this context."*

*"I understand Cassie. Because Im crazy and I dont like to talk that much."*

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...02364955787264

----------


## Blight



----------


## millernumber1

> 


I need to set aside some time to watch this (that's a really long video), but if Lee is really drawing Cass, that's pretty impressive, considering the rumors that he vetoed her for Hush...

----------


## Assam

I'm not generally a big fan of Lee's art, but that does look really nice.  :Smile: 

This either means that Lee has changed his opinion on Cass since Hush OR Blight was right all along and it was actually a matter of Cass not fitting into Loeb's nostalgia that caused her to be excluded.

----------


## Blight

> I'm not generally a big fan of Lee's art, but that does look really nice. 
> 
> This either means that Lee has changed his opinion on Cass since Hush OR Blight was right all along and it was actually a matter of Cass not fitting into Loeb's nostalgia that caused her to be excluded.


Well in the video he confuses aspects of Stephanie's Batgirl with Cassandra and a few other details. It's obvious he knows of the character but not her entire backstory and history. This is the third time he's drawn her that I've know about. Once for something after Hush. Then basically he was behind DCUO and basically Cass was the Batgirl in that. So, it's probable in my thinking to lean more toward Loeb.

----------


## millernumber1

> Well in the video he confuses aspects of Stephanie's Batgirl with Cassandra and a few other details. It's obvious he knows of the character but not her entire backstory and history. This is the third time he's drawn her that I've know about. Once for something after Hush. Then basically he was behind DCUO and basically Cass was the Batgirl in that. So, it's probable in my thinking to lean more toward Loeb.


I'm going to confess that I don't really have the patience to watch 2 hours of drawing and mumbling. What did he confuse about Steph and Cass? I watched a bit of it (probably about 30 minutes total), and he totally forgot Steph even existed until someone reminded him several times.

----------


## Blight

> I'm going to confess that I don't really have the patience to watch 2 hours of drawing and mumbling. What did he confuse about Steph and Cass? I watched a bit of it (probably about 30 minutes total), and he totally forgot Steph even existed until someone reminded him several times.


There's an early point in the sketch when he draws Cass with a staff saying he remebered her using it. Steph kind of was the only one who used a staff (and that's using the weapon of choice losely). He realized his mistake and course corrected. The other was the stitches on Cass's costume. Again he course corrected himself. I watched an hour of it. It was amusing fun to see a bunch of Cassandra fans flood his poll and defeating various versions of Barbara.

----------


## millernumber1

> There's an early point in the sketch when he draws Cass with a staff saying he remebered her using it. Steph kind of was the only one who used a staff (and that's using the weapon of choice losely). He realized his mistake and course corrected. The other was the stitches on Cass's costume. Again he course corrected himself. I watched an hour of it. It was amusing fun to see a bunch of Cassandra fans flood his poll and defeating various versions of Barbara.


Ah. Yeah, Steph is often pictured with the staff (boom stick!), but she also loves her Batarangs. And accio fist!

I'm really happy to see the Cass fanbase letting the co-publisher of DC know they love her as Batgirl.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

Just clicked through the video. Some pretty amusing bits, both from Lee's confusion over things as well as his actually fairly decent sense of humor. (Gotta love how even the co-publisher of the company refers to BurnsideBabs as 'Millennial Batgirl'.) 

Seeing Cass beat out all those Babs' was great as well, although it is kinda sad he just forgot about Steph, especially since, looking at the chat, she only had a couple fans there compared to all the Cass and Babs fans. 




> I'm really happy to see the Cass fanbase letting the co-publisher of DC know they love her as Batgirl.


Between both times the fanbase has had to fight to get her fixed/back in existence, the twitter poll Snyder did for all DC characters where Cass ended up getting one of the highest amounts of mentions and now this (along with plenty of other instances I'm sure), I can't help but think in regards to DC...




EDIT: Not exactly relevant to Cass, but since we're talking Lee, I just saw this: 

http://renaroo.tumblr.com/post/17205...d-with-jim-lee 

Damn it DC!  :Mad:

----------


## Assam

These chibi charms  :Embarrassment: 

https://twitter.com/MInlitch/status/976225302975275008

----------


## Assam

I'm probably one of the only people to put thought into this, but I think if brought back, Cricket could potentially make for a great central rogue for Cass, and while I'm a fan of Pre-FP Cain and Shiva, she could definitely use more of those. 

Here's my pitch: Cricket was the child of two Z-list superheroes. At a young age, they found out he was a Meta with immense speed and began training him so he could join the family business. However, during an early sidekick outing, he accidentally killed a villain and found that he felt nothing. His parents tried to help him the best they could, but weren't able to send him to a therapist. Unbeknownst to them, Cricket spent this time experimenting, killing animals and more people, eventually finding that he didn't feel nothing...he felt joy. At the age of 9, his parents decided he needed to see someone, secret identities be damned. In response, Cricket killed them, going on to become an assassin for hire. 

On a physical level, being too fast for Cass to fight as she would normally would require her to think outside the box to beat him. And on a thematic level, he's both a reverse of Cass (Born to be a hero, made himself a killer) as well as what Cain wishes Cass had become. Toss in Cass's protective nature of children and the desire she'd likely have to turn his life around and try to find the good him, and we could get some really great stories out of this conflict.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> So if a new outsiders launches with the same team shown in Metal, Cass may have a spot. Metamorpho is on the Terrifics and probably won't be on this team and Katana is on the Suicide Squad who doesn't seem to be leaving anytime (poor girl). I wouldn't mind if Cass takes Katana spot. I want to see Halo interact with Cass.


There's a pretty good fanfic where that's happening now, actually

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2542344...in-The-Batgirl

----------


## Assam

New from Dustin Nguyen 

dustin.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> New from Dustin Nguyen 
> 
> dustin.jpg


Always love Nguyen's stuff.  :Smile:

----------


## The Dying Detective

If Stephanie is going to appear in Young Justice what are the odd of Cassandra Cain appearing there as well?

----------


## The Whovian

> New from Dustin Nguyen 
> 
> dustin.jpg


Sweet! I always liked Dustin's art

----------


## godisawesome

> If Stephanie is going to appear in Young Justice what are the odd of Cassandra Cain appearing there as well?


I have to think there's at least a decent chance. Greg Weissman played dumb in regards to Stephanie Brown right around the time they had to have been writing the scripts she cameoed in, and no one's ever accused Greg Weissman of being low on mythos usage.

And, uh, if I can add my own 2 cents on what I think would work with Cricket...

...there was an old Tim Drake Robin story involving a young Woman named Dava who mastered deadly one-hit moves and then took a speed drug, one that when Tim was accidentally exposed to made him capable of beating Shiva to death. When he rescuiatated her, he gave her the drug and she proceeded to kill more people than usual.

My idea I'd basically Assam's but replace meta human skills with the drug.

----------


## godisawesome

Here's a headshot and redesign I made for a fan comic I'm making for our podcast-attached Tumblr:
image.jpg

----------


## Blight

> If Stephanie is going to appear in Young Justice what are the odd of Cassandra Cain appearing there as well?


High. The plot for Season 3 deals with the Light still pursuing metahumans as weapons. I just got this strange feeling given Cassandra's origins it would be easy for her to show up in an episode ala Stephanie.

----------


## Aahz

> The solicits, title, and writer make me think this is going to serve as a fill-in arc for Tomasi's run _and_ setup for a new Outsiders book.


I don't know if a Outsiders Book, with Black lighting, Cass and Duke is really a good idea. Sounds to me like a cast that (like most previous incarnations of this team) doesn't fit with the "we do stuff the LJ can't do" premise this book is usually supposed to have.

----------


## Assam

> I don't know if a Outsiders Book, with Black lighting, Cass and Duke is really a good idea. Sounds to me like a cast that (like most previous incarnations of this team) doesn't fit with the "we do stuff the LJ can't do" premise this book is usually supposed to have.


I don't think that's fair to say as we don't know who the rest of the cast will consist of, we don't know what spin on the Outsiders concept Hill will use and of course that without this, both Jefferson and Cass (and whoever else ends up on the line-up that is currently being used) would likely end up/stay in limbo without this, to say nothing of all the potential this book has.

----------


## Aahz

> I don't think that's fair to say as we don't know who the rest of the cast will consist of, we don't know what spin on the Outsiders concept Hill will use and of course that without this, both Jefferson and Cass (and whoever else ends up on the line-up that is currently being used) would likely end up/stay in limbo without this, to say nothing of all the potential this book has.


That doesn't mean that the book will be bad.
I like for example the original Outsiders series, but that series also didn't live up to that premise imo.

Jefferson and Cass could work if you choose the right characters for the rest of the team (even if it is imo to early to pull Cass out of the Batmanfamily comics, there is imo still to much they didn't properly reestablish), but a teen hero that just started his career like Duke doesn't fit.

----------


## Assam

> Jefferson and Cass could work if you choose the right characters for the rest of the team


Just curious, off the top of your head, what characters would you toss in with Cass and Jefferson to form a team that could meet the original mission statement? 




> (even if it is imo to early to pull Cass out of the Batmanfamily comics, there is imo still to much they didn't properly reestablish)


Which is why I'm hoping either for the inevitable Batgirl re-launch to be about all three or for a potential Tim solo to include her as a supporting character, both options also serving as Steph's only chances to stay out of limbo. Or you know, a solo for her, but that goes without saying and is incredibly unlikely given editorial.

----------


## millernumber1

> Which is why I'm hoping either for the inevitable Batgirl re-launch to be about all three or for a potential Tim solo to include her as a supporting character, both options also serving as Steph's only chances to stay out of limbo. Or you know, a solo for her, but that goes without saying and is incredibly unlikely given editorial.


With the Benson's project revealed as Green Arrow, I think the chances of a Batgirls or Birds relaunch are vanishingly small.

But Batgirl seriously needs a revamp.

----------


## Katana500

> Just curious, off the top of your head, what characters would you toss in with Cass and Jefferson to form a team that could meet the original mission statement?


I'm not sure what characters would suit the original mission statement since im not 100% sure what that is.

But I have a theory of who I think will be on the team.  Well not really a theory more just guesswork. But who doesnt love some random predictions  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

> I'm not sure what characters would suit the original mission statement since im not 100% sure what that is.
> 
> But I have a theory of who I think will be on the team.  Well not really a theory more just guesswork. But who doesnt love some random predictions


The original idea of the team was that they took on the missions that the Justice League couldn't because of their mainstream and well-known presence. 

Let's hear your predictions.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> Just curious, off the top of your head, what characters would you toss in with Cass and Jefferson to form a team that could meet the original mission statement?


The original reason for the Outsiders to exist was to do stuff that the Justice League do (for political and league reasons), they were originally iirc even wanted by the Government, and had run ins with the a pariotic team named "the Force of July".

For a set up fitting would be antiheros who are willing to bend (and break) the rules a little (Garce Choi, Jarred Stevens, Constantin, Midnighter, Question, maybe some of the Jusitice League Ellite Guys ...) or some that are more into the spy and under cover stuff (Nemesis, Human Target, Nightshade ...).

----------


## Katana500

> The original idea of the team was that they took on the missions that the Justice League couldn't because of their mainstream and well-known presence. 
> 
> Let's hear your predictions.


Well Cass, Duke and Jefferson seem obvious as the first three members, due to the Detective Comics Solicits. 

Batman-and-the-Outsiders-Dark-Days-the-Forge-1-spoilers..jpg

I also think it is likely atleast 2 or possibly three members of the old team also return. I think Halo and Geoforce are most likely because neither of them currently appear in any books.  Katana I could possibly also see returning as even though she is in Suicide Squad. she is probably the second most recognizable non Bat-fam member behind Black Lightning. Because Metamorpho appears in the Terrifics I think its pretty unlikely he will appear. 

batman-likes-green-lantern-simon-baz.jpg

For my more out their prediction, I think we might see a Green Lantern on the team. Most specifically Simon Baz. Since Jess is now in Justice League Odyssey I think they might try put Simon somewhere else.


So for my final team, im going for:

*
1. Black Lightning (Leader)
2. Green Lantern - Simon Baz
3. Halo
4. Geo Force
5. Cass
6. Duke*

and possibly 

*7. Katana 
*
Batman will probably also have some sort of role, maybe not on the team but a recurring character atleast. 

Their will probably be some random character none of us can predict though - someone random like Clayface in Detective was. With BoP ending maybe someone like Huntress could even join. I'd be excited too hear what other people think the lineup will be like.

----------


## Sardorim

She should remain in the Bat Books. Especially after Steph left. Besides, at least let one of them stay partnered up with Tim.

----------


## Blight

> She should remain in the Bat Books. Especially after Steph left. Besides, at least let one of them stay partnered up with Tim.


We still don't know where Tim is going after Tec. It seems to reason Steph and him will be in YJ (aka the probable lingering subplot left for Tim after this) with Aqualad to find Kon, Cassie, and Bart.

----------


## Assam

> We still don't know where Tim is going after Tec. It seems to reason Steph and him will be in YJ (aka the probable lingering subplot left for Tim after this) with Aqualad to find Kon, Cassie, and Bart.


I really will be shocked if Steph is with Tim here. I think it's much more likely Jaime will be with Tim and Jackson.

----------


## Blight

> I really will be shocked if Steph is with Tim here. I think it's much more likely Jaime will be with Tim and Jackson.


She's in the new season.

----------


## Assam

> She's in the new season.


I'm aware, but that means very little. DC doesn't usually synergize this way, they didn't _at all_ when the  YJ show was originally on, there are _a lot_ of characters from that show who won't be on this team, even characters who haven't been around until now like M'Gann will be going to Titans, and just among the new additions, we already know that Traci 13 will be serving as the Justice League Dark's bartender.

----------


## Blight

> I'm aware, but that means very little. DC doesn't usually synergize this way, they didn't _at all_ when the  YJ show was originally on, there are _a lot_ of characters from that show who won't be on this team, even characters who haven't been around until now like M'Gann will be going to Titans, and just among the new additions, we already know that Traci 13 will be serving as the Justice League Dark's bartender.


Which is my point. Stephanie and Tim's journeys aren't at a end. They're merely beginning. If my suspicions are correct then they're both showing up with Aqualad in Young Justice to find Kon, Cassie, and Bart. To fix the fracture of Tim's memories.

----------


## Assam

By Nooodle07 on Tumblr 

nooodle07.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> Cassandra Cain is my favorite heroine ever!
> 
> For those who don't know my girl:
> 
> 
> 
> *General*
> Cassandra Cains stats are given.
> http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...read/01402.jpg
> ...


Amazing list!

----------


## Caivu

By Marco Finnegan:

IMG_20180402_231217.jpg

----------


## Assam

By Vavitsara on Tumblr 

family and friends.jpg

----------


## Frontier

Y'know, since it's looking pretty likely we're going to be getting a Bryan Hill Outsiders with Cass soon, I'm hoping she gets a proper codename and costume revamp to go along with it. 

If Hill really is a big Cass fan, then I would think he would make it important to better re-establish Cass as he works on her.

----------


## Mataza

Hello!
What is you guys favorite drawing of Cassandra. I recently finished Red Robin and i fell in love with her Black Bat costume, its amazing! Marcus To made her my favorite character to look at.

----------


## Assam

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/scott-s...mpression=true

So Outsiders is spinning out of both 'Tec _and_ No Justice? Really hope that doesn't mean I have to read the dumb event. 




> I recently finished Red Robin and i fell in love with her Black Bat costume, its amazing! Marcus To made her my favorite character to look at.


I'm not a fan of the Black Bat costume OR identity, but To managed to make the design work excellently.

----------


## Assam

Really nice watercolor Cass by Betsy Peterschmidt. 

watercolor cass.jpg

----------


## Blight

Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 

https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 
> 
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg


The mask reminds me of Azrael.

----------


## The Whovian

> Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 
> 
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg


Oh wow, that is cool!

----------


## Assam

> Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 
> 
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg


The true future of the DCU. 

Super awesome that you got this made and To's art is brilliant as always. Made this my wallpaper.  :Smile:

----------


## Caivu

Final #980 cover is out:

IMG_20180411_154518.jpg

By Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, and Brad Anderson.

----------


## The Whovian

I love it. Cass looks like she's about to kick some nutt

----------


## Mataza

> Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 
> 
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg


If i remember correctly, both To and Nicieza wanted Cass to be Batman.

----------


## Frontier

> Final #980 cover is out:
> 
> IMG_20180411_154518.jpg
> 
> By Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, and Brad Anderson.


With Cass' positioning around Batman it almost makes it look like she has a cape again (and obvious Batgirl silhouette is obvious). 

I approve  :Smile: .

----------


## vasir12

> Final #980 cover is out:
> 
> Attachment 64489
> 
> By Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, and Brad Anderson.


I'm guessing those two become official bats? I like the ears in their shadows.

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

> Final #980 cover is out:
> 
> Attachment 64489
> 
> By Alvaro Martínez, Raül Fernandez, and Brad Anderson.


This is STUNNING!

----------


## Blight

You know I just realized. After #980 we haven't seen a single cover of Cass. Tynion said that one of the artist working on the comic showed him some new designs. You don't suppose? Steph and Cass get new costume designs going forward from this issue?

----------


## millernumber1

> You know I just realized. After #980 we haven't seen a single cover of Cass. Tynion said that one of the artist working on the comic showed him some new designs. You don't suppose? Steph and Cass get new costume designs going forward from this issue?


Wasn't that for Justice League Dark, though?

----------


## Assam

> You know I just realized. After #980 we haven't seen a single cover of Cass. Tynion said that one of the artist working on the comic showed him some new designs. You don't suppose? Steph and Cass get new costume designs going forward from this issue?


Technically we did see her on the cover of #981 still in the 'Orphan' suit, but that could just be to avoid spoilers. Otherwise, I've thought the same thing. Additionally, along with the only Hill covers we've seen not featuring her, she's been consistently referred to by her real name in the solicits, even when other characters are being referred to by their code names. That's been a thing since 'Tec started, but it all still screams to me that we're finally getting rid of 'Orphan' and the 'Orphan' suit in the next couple issues.

----------


## Blight

> Wasn't that for Justice League Dark, though?


Artist was working on Tec prior to the creative team switch. So it's possible the artist may have left but the costumes remained.




> Technically we did see her on the cover of #981 still in the 'Orphan' suit, but that could just be to avoid spoilers. Otherwise, I've thought the same thing. Additionally, along with the only Hill covers we've seen not featuring her, she's been consistently referred to by her real name in the solicits, even when other characters are being referred to by their code names. That's been a thing since 'Tec started, but it all still screams to me that we're finally getting rid of 'Orphan' and the 'Orphan' suit in the next couple issues.


True, but everyone has their Tec costume from that cover. And as we know things changed. Question is how much do they change in the issue?

----------


## Assam

> Question is how much do they change in the issue?


Exactly. I wasn't dismissing the idea at all and I'm fully expecting some changes.

----------


## Assam

Psu and a group of other Cass fans put together a mini fan-comic.  "Test pages" as one of them put it. 

https://twitter.com/SwainArtFS/statu...66660963659776

----------


## adrikito

> Psu and a group of other Cass fans put together a mini fan-comic.  "Test pages" as one of them put it. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/SwainArtFS/statu...66660963659776


WOW... These images are amazing.




> Marcus To did another Cass. But not just any other Cass. A Cass as Batman!! 
> 
> https://78.media.tumblr.com/ed280d6d...feuo1_1280.jpg


That mask reminds me something... Maybe *Frontier* is right:




> The mask reminds me of Azrael.


Now I remember this... The mask reminds me RED HOOD with bat ears..

----------


## Assam

Not sure why she has blue eyes, but the rest of this fancomic is still pretty dang cool. 

https://silberbluemoon.tumblr.com/po...8B%A4%EB%A7%8C

----------


## Frontier

> Not sure why she has blue eyes, but the rest of this fancomic is still pretty dang cool. 
> 
> https://silberbluemoon.tumblr.com/po...8B%A4%EB%A7%8C


Nice (wish they had used a better Cass costume though)  :Cool: .

I like the artists work (although ConstantinexStargirl? Okay  :Stick Out Tongue: ).

----------


## HandofPrometheus

JLC #23 Variant
ivbrvbpwdts01.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> JLC #23 Variant
> ivbrvbpwdts01.jpg


Oooh, does that mean Cass might show up?

----------


## Assam

> Nice (wish they had used a better Cass costume though) .


Agreed, although I maintain, lack of a Bat aside, the costume isn't that bad with the mask off. 




> I like the artists work (although ConstantinexStargirl? Okay ).


Did not see anything about that. Eww. 




> JLC #23 Variant
> ivbrvbpwdts01.jpg


Ha! Yes, I love it!

----------


## Assam

> Oooh, does that mean Cass might show up?


Nah, this isn't the first time they've had a variant with most of DC's East Asian heroes on it. #11 had a great one too. 

11.jpg

I wonder what Judomaster did at the dinner to make them not invite her to the party.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Oooh, does that mean Cass might show up?


I beleive there was a similar cover in Justice League of China before that feature Kimiyo Hoshi the second Doctor Light but she never appeared. So i doubt Cass will appear.

----------


## millernumber1

> Nah, this isn't the first time they've had a variant with most of DC's East Asian heroes on it. #11 had a great one too. 
> 
> Attachment 64860
> 
> I wonder what Judomaster did at the dinner to make them not invite her to the party.


Aw, sad day. Oh, well. A cover is a cover!

----------


## Frontier

> JLC #23 Variant
> Attachment 64859


Awesome  :Big Grin: .



> Agreed, although I maintain, lack of a Bat aside, the costume isn't that bad with the mask off.


Eh, I just don't think it's a good look for Cass overall, particularly if it doesn't go with her mask. But to each their own  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

> Eh, I just don't think it's a good look for Cass overall, particularly if it doesn't go with her mask. But to each their own .


Don't get me wrong, I still don't think it's a great look or anything. Even drawn by Takara it's still only 'good' at best and any design that has her wearing visible armor is inherently flawed.

----------


## Assam

Welp, we finally got an 'answer' as to what happened to Cass in FutureTim's timeline. Apparently she got killed by Ra's "seeking answers she couldn't find in Gotham", whatever that means. 

Still call horsehockey on this whole storyline.

----------


## millernumber1

> Welp, we finally got an 'answer' as to what happened to Cass in FutureTim's timeline. Apparently she got killed by Ra's "seeking answers she couldn't find in Gotham", whatever that means. 
> 
> Still call horsehockey on this whole storyline.


I still think there's a very big chance that the General and/or Brother Eye is making things look worse than they are.

(Also, looks like Steph is super dead too.)

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I still think there's a very big chance that the General and/or Brother Eye is making things look worse than they are.
> 
> (Also, looks like Steph is super dead too.)


The latest news from Detective Comics hmm? Well if anything I'd say whether or not you love or hate Tynion what Cassandra Cain was looking for is unknown but it sets up a story with enormous potential just avoid killing her. Also did you get my email?

----------


## Assam

> The latest news from Detective Comics hmm? Well if anything I'd say whether or not you love or hate Tynion what Cassandra Cain was looking for is unknown but it sets up a story with enormous potential just avoid killing her. Also did you get my email?


No potential. We already knew she had a grudge against Ra's. This is just a dumb potential future. (and possibly not even that)

I never gave you my e-mail, nor would I ever give you my e-mail.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> No potential. We already knew she had a grudge against Ra's. This is just a dumb potential future. (and possibly not even that)
> 
> I never gave you my e-mail, nor would I ever give you my e-mail.


I mean the answers Cass was looking for I know the future itself is not likeable but I mean the idea of Cass going after Ra's for answers can be an interesting plot on it's own without killing her and no I was referring to mmillernumber1 I gave him my email.

----------


## Korath

The more I read Brian Hill twitter, the more I'm anticipating his take on Cass.

----------


## adrikito

> The more I read Brian Hill twitter, the more I'm anticipating his take on Cass.


I liked that tweet.

----------


## Frontier

> The more I read Brian Hill twitter, the more I'm anticipating his take on Cass.


Good to hear  :Smile: .

----------


## Blight

> Welp, we finally got an 'answer' as to what happened to Cass in FutureTim's timeline. Apparently she got killed by Ra's "seeking answers she couldn't find in Gotham", whatever that means. 
> 
> Still call horsehockey on this whole storyline.


First rule of unreliable narrator's. They're unreliable. 

Note two problems with the General spoiling all of this:

#1 Stephanie's body when we know for a fact that she is alive in the Tomorrow timeline due to the previous flashback. 

#2 Note who's body isn't shown on the monitors when the General is gloating. 


millernumber1 is correct. The General is using Brother Eye to make things worse than they are to break Tim fully into becoming an OMAC.

----------


## Assam

> First rule of unreliable narrator's. They're unreliable. 
> 
> Note two problems with the General spoiling all of this:
> 
> #1 Stephanie's body when we know for a fact that she is alive in the Tomorrow timeline due to the previous flashback. 
> 
> #2 Note who's body isn't shown on the monitors when the General is gloating. 
> 
> 
> millernumber1 is correct. The General is using Brother Eye to make things worse than they are to break Tim fully into becoming an OMAC.


Yeah, I didn't edit or delete my earlier post but I completely agree with this and Miller's posts, both here and on the 'Tec thread. It was even already made fairly clear two issues ago that Ulysses had these Tim-motivating fake futures made up.

----------


## Assam

So along with 'Tec, Cass also appeared in Batman and the Signal #3 today. It was just a cameo, but we did get some set-up for Hill's 'Tec/Outsiders out of Bruce. 

duke and cass.jpg

Also apparently the weekly breakfasts are canon and not just a part of Duke's dreams. I kinda love that.

----------


## Frontier

> So along with 'Tec, Cass also appeared in Batman and the Signal #3 today. It was just a cameo, but we did get some set-up for Hill's 'Tec/Outsiders out of Bruce. 
> 
> Attachment 65112
> 
> Also apparently the weekly breakfasts are canon and not just a part of Duke's dreams. I kinda love that.


It's nice to know that's a thing, even if it implies the entire Batfamily is more consistently closer and interactive then we ever actually get to see.

----------


## heyevaxx

> The more I read Brian Hill twitter, the more I'm anticipating his take on Cass.


Right on! Bryan is looking like a great, next DC author for Cass fans.

Bryan's thoughts on Cass' fighting are in line with Tom's:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...94791902887936

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833702769487917057

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------


## Assam

More interestingly on the 'fighting' side of things from Hill's Twitter is how he wants to show each of them fighting with a very distinct style. 

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...97851681251329

----------


## Frontier

> More interestingly on the 'fighting' side of things from Hill's Twitter is how he wants to show each of them fighting with a very distinct style. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...97851681251329


Reminds me of how Jay Oliva wanted the Batfamily in _Bad Blood_ to all have a distinct, real world, fighting style in the movie.

----------


## Mataza

Thats cool, but i cant even imagine how cass would fight.

----------


## Blight

So Batman #47 variant by Amanda Connor. She's such a sneaky one ain't she? batman_47_by_battle810-dc9tdq1.jpg

----------


## Assam

Well done Connor, well done.  :Smile:

----------


## Assam

By Vigilante-Family on Tumblr 

ponytail cass.jpg

There needs to be more pony tail Cass in fanart.

----------


## Blight

> By Vigilante-Family on Tumblr 
> 
> ponytail cass.jpg
> 
> There needs to be more pony tail Cass in fanart.


I got one commissioned a LONG time ago by Livio

----------


## The Whovian

> Right on! Bryan is looking like a great, next DC author for Cass fans.
> 
> Bryan's thoughts on Cass' fighting are in line with Tom's:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...94791902887936
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status/833702769487917057
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Duke shouldn't even be on this list. What a joke

----------


## heyevaxx

> So along with 'Tec, Cass also appeared in Batman and the Signal #3 today. It was just a cameo, but we did get some set-up for Hill's 'Tec/Outsiders out of Bruce. 
> Attachment 65112
> Also apparently the weekly breakfasts are canon and not just a part of Duke's dreams. I kinda love that.


"When you're done with your pancakes I'd love to chat with you and Cassandra about changing schools ..."

Is Cass even attending a school? Did I miss something?

Considering her upbringing and significant learning disabilities (no writing, no reading, limited speaking) I'd think Bruce would get Cassie a special private tutor. A normal public or private school just wouldn't work.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Duke shouldn't even be on this list. What a joke


I think Duke would be top ten, definitely not top five. Damian, Luke, and Kate would all be over Duke. In Tim's case I'd have him under Duke, Babs, and possibly even Stephanie. current Tim is only a hair above street thug level when it comes to pure combat skill.

Cass, Bruce, and Dick in that order are locks imo. The fourth spot is highly  debatable between Jason and Damian. Both hold advantages over the other as far as skill is concerned.

----------


## Celgress

> Duke shouldn't even be on this list. What a joke


At the very least he shouldn't be in the top five. The guy is just outclassed by most of the other Bat Family members.

----------


## The Whovian

> *I think Duke would be top ten, definitely not top five. Damian, Luke, and Kate would all be over Duke. In Tim's case I'd have him under Duke, Babs, and possibly even Stephanie*. current Tim is only a hair above street thug level when it comes to pure combat skill.
> 
> Cass, Bruce, and Dick in that order are locks imo. The fourth spot is highly  debatable between Jason and Damian. Both hold advantages over the other as far as skill is concerned.


Just out of curiosity, what has Duke done and what kind if training has he had where he would be ranked higher than anyone on this list?

----------


## reni344

Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low? I have not read many Tim stories but I know he is a pretty decent fighter. And where is Babs on this list? I feel like all the robins would beat out Duke and I think Steph could beat him. I think my ranking would go:

1.Cass
2. Dick 
3.Bruce
4. Damian
5. Kate
*6.Jason, I think this also debatable 
7.Babs* 
8.Tim
*9. Steph
10.Duke* I think these could be a debate

----------


## The Whovian

> Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low?


Apparently, the writers haven't done their homework or they would know that Tim has been trained by some of the greatest fighters in the DCU, including Shiva and Batman. 

Where did Duke get his training? Nowhere

----------


## TheCape

> Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low? I have not read many Tim stories but I know he is a pretty decent fighter. And where is Babs on this list? I feel like all the robins would beat out Duke and I think Steph could beat him. I think my ranking would go:
> 
> 1.Cass
> 2. Dick 
> 3.Bruce
> 4. Damian
> 5. Kate
> *6.Jason, I think this also debatable 
> 7.Babs* 
> ...


Tim has the fame of being the less physical on the family and relying more in tricskter tactic than physical combat, in comparison with Bruce and Dick (King Snake for example won't be a problem for those 2, but it would be a headache for Tim), so people kind of translated that to him being kind of a wimp in that regard, when actually he is the best martial artist with a bo staff in the DCU. It just come down to the same problem that the batfamily suffer, flanderization, the Robins are hit hard with that in particular.

----------


## Frontier

Man, I remember the long thread where we debated King's rankings. Good times  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## TheCape

> Man, I remember the long thread where we debated King's rankings. Good times .


I saw the thread a week ago, it was hilarious  :Big Grin: .

----------


## The Whovian

> Tim has the fame of being the less physical on the family and relying more in tricskter tactic than physical combat, in comparison with Bruce and Dick (King Snake for example won't be a problem for those 2, but it would be a headache for Tim), so people kind of translated that to him being kind of a wimp in that regard, when actually he is the best martial artist with a bo staff in the DCU. It just come down to the same problem that the batfamily suffer, flanderization, the Robins are hit hard with that in particular.


Tim actually beat King Snake. Sorry everyone, don't mean to derail the thread. Just can't stand it when writers post things they have no clue about.

----------


## Assam

> "When you're done with your pancakes I'd love to chat with you and Cassandra about changing schools ..."
> 
> Is Cass even attending a school? Did I miss something?
> 
> Considering her upbringing and significant learning disabilities (no writing, no reading, limited speaking) I'd think Bruce would get Cassie a special private tutor. A normal public or private school just wouldn't work.


No she hasn't been attending school, but starting at one would still be a change and this was probably the least wordy way to phrase the sentence. 

I'd actually LOVE to see Cass going to high school in a top-tier special needs program. I think there's a ton of potential there and while I'm still not a fan of RebirthCass being younger than the original, this is one way to make some damn delicious lemonade. 




> I saw the thread a week ago, it was hilarious .


It was one of the first discussions I partook in on the forum. And like so much of what I said in those early months while on certain meds, a lot of my comments there were _really_ stupid or not my true thoughts at all. Still kinda funny in retrospect though.

----------


## Aahz

> I think Duke would be top ten, definitely not top five. Damian, Luke, and Kate would all be over Duke. In Tim's case I'd have him under Duke, Babs, and possibly even Stephanie. current Tim is only a hair above street thug level when it comes to pure combat skill.
> 
> Cass, Bruce, and Dick in that order are locks imo. The fourth spot is highly  debatable between Jason and Damian. Both hold advantages over the other as far as skill is concerned.


Personally I would claim that Dick and Jason a pretty evenly matched, And that Tim is above Steph and Barbara (and Damian being above him is also debatable).

When it comes to Duke, that guy was in Robin War still fanboying about Tim's and Jason's skills.

----------


## Restingvoice

Cassandra is the top tier obviously.

The second tier is a bit confusing to me.
Dick is the only one aside from Cass that has managed to beat Bruce in a straight up fight, but it's also only happened once as far as I know and after being pushed by Bruce himself, since Dick won't go all out on anyone in the Batfam unless they're being unreasonable. Both of them also had defeated Ra's al Ghul and had gone toe to toe with Lady Shiva longer than the rest. As in, they can't win, but it's not a curb stomp battle either.

To be considered better they need to be consistent, and they more often depict Batman as better than Dick, even though if we count every continuity because today the tend to that, we should have arrived at the state where Dick is in his prime while Bruce is getting old. 
So if we count every continuity it should be Dick, but at any default state, it's Bruce.

Then there's Azrael. He's fought both before, but I never read it. All I heard was Bruce beat Azrael in Knightsend, his fight with Dick was interrupted in Eternal, and in the berserk mode, he can fight Cassandra and Batwoman at the same time. 
So, normal Azrael for me is the bottom of this tier, but berserk mode Azrael is top tier.  

Third Tier.
Both Batwoman and Red Hood have acknowledged in their duel with Batman that they won't be able to defeat him in a fair fight, so both resorted to cheating and took care of their business while Bruce was trapped or incapacitated. Batwoman has defeated Babsgirl before, and Red Hood acknowledged that Babsgirl is better than him. Babsgirl and Red Hood has dueled Nightwing before and it tends to be a stalemate. Nightwing is clearly faster and stealthier than Babsgirl though since everytime they tag, Nightwing always managed to disappear and surprises her. 
So while it goes Batwoman > Babsgirl > Red Hood based on that, all of them has gone toe to toe with Batman and Nightwing before, so the third tier is very close to the second and by all means should be considered set in stone. 

??? Tier.
Damian's skill fluctuates. The only obvious thing is he couldn't beat Batman and Nightwing. He's beaten Red Hood and Red Robin and they have beaten him in turn. 
Same goes for Tim. He can go toe to toe with Red Hood but I don't know how good he is with the rest. 
Duke managed to get a hit on Dick while training while he couldn't handle Red Hood. He could also beat Damian.
This tier is not consistent enough for me. They're not the bottom but there are fights where they shouldn't be that good. 

Bottom Tier
Stephanie and Harper, New 52 only since I don't know how good she was as Batgirl. I think Stephanie will be at ??? tier 

The One Who Never Fought Anyone Else as far as I know so I can't count them
David Zavimbe and Luke Fox

Tt-tt-that's all I know, folks.

----------


## Armor of God

Duke simply should not even be on these lists. I'm sorry but isn't this exactly why they gave him powers? Dont try to have your cake and eat it too.

Bruce
Cass
Dick
Azrael are top tier

Then Jason, Tim, Damian

Then Kate, Helena, Babs 

This is your top 10. You can mention Luke and Steph after them under honorable category.

Mentioning Duke is frankly less about his skill and more about writers trying to remind everyone that he exists and that he is a member of the family. Do not believe for one second that Batman writers are ignorant enough to actually believe he's a top 10 character.

----------


## Armor of God

> Out of curiosity I always wondered why is Tim so low? I have not read many Tim stories but I know he is a pretty decent fighter. And where is Babs on this list? I feel like all the robins would beat out Duke and I think Steph could beat him. I think my ranking would go:
> 
> 1.Cass
> 2. Dick 
> 3.Bruce
> 4. Damian
> 5. Kate
> *6.Jason, I think this also debatable 
> 7.Babs* 
> ...


I think Tynion deserves considerable blame. Putting characters in to specific boxes has long been his speciality. He's turned Tim in to hacker guy.

----------


## Aahz

> Red Hood acknowledged that Babsgirl is better than him.


I don't think that this referred to her fighting skills.

Btw. arguing based of who won against whom  is always quite problematic. Who wins depends a lot on the story, and some writers (like Tom King) seem to not care at all for logic and power levels.

And some characters just get much more opportunity to show off then others, Jason and Tim are for example often just used as side characters in the recent Batfamily event, and just don't get any important villains to go up against or get just jobbed to make villain more threatening.

----------


## Korath

Damian is head and shoulders above Tim. The only young bat able to defeat him should be Cass. Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes. And then he started training with Bruce. There is no way in hell that Tim Drake could be better at a fight than him, short of resorting to his "imma doing everything wrong so I win" he did against Cass. Which was absolute garbage because it should be easier for her that way.

----------


## Aahz

> Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes.


And on top of this he made several PhDs during that time ... sorry but it is really hard to take Damains training serious.

----------


## TheCape

> Damian is head and shoulders above Tim. The only young bat able to defeat him should be Cass. Damian as been trained from birth to be a killer, he has spent ten years learning how to fight, kill and defeat all manner of foes. And then he started training with Bruce. There is no way in hell that Tim Drake could be better at a fight than him, short of resorting to his "imma doing everything wrong so I win" he did against Cass. Which was absolute garbage because it should be easier for her that way.


Almost nobody took the Tim/Cass fight seriously, so it really isn't worth mentioning, we know that it was BS. Damian and Tim is a bit more debatable, for one side there is Damian training that made him dangerous in a fight, but Tim has expirience beating people stronger than him by tricking then (and i refer to actual strategic thinking, not "i don't had a fight style" kind of strategy), he probably would be beaten.in a straight up fight thougth.

----------


## TheCape

That being said, i think that we should leave it here, we had derail this thread long enougth, wich i apologize for to the Cass fans.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I don't think that this referred to her fighting skills.
> 
> Btw. arguing based of who won against whom  is always quite problematic. Who wins depends a lot on the story, and some writers (like Tom King) seem to not care at all for logic and power levels.
> 
> And some characters just get much more opportunity to show off then others, Jason and Tim are for example often just used as side characters in the recent Batfamily event, and just don't get any important villains to go up against or get just jobbed to make villain more threatening.


True, but page evidence is the only thing I have right now. I can't know which story is biased to which character unless I read everything.

----------


## Aahz

> Almost nobody took the Tim/Cass fight seriously, so it really isn't worth mentioning, we know that it was BS. Damian and Tim is a bit more debatable, for one side there is Damian training that made him dangerous in a fight, but Tim has expirience beating people stronger than him by tricking then (and i refer to actual strategic thinking, not "i don't had a fight style" kind of strategy), he probably would be beaten.in a straight up fight thougth.


At least pre flashpoint you had him stomping Damian, once he stopped holding back against him.

Tim wasn't the best marital artist when he started as Robin, but he became pretty good later on, and they showed him iirc later defeating guys (like Shen Chi) pretty easily he had no chance against when he was starting.




> True, but page evidence is the only thing I have right now. I can't know which story is biased to which character unless I read everything.


 But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.

----------


## Restingvoice

> But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.


Yeah. That's why I said "unless I read everything"
I included everything I read or heard in my list and put them in consideration. That's why there's the ??? tier. ^^

----------


## Mataza

> But page evidence is pretty inconsistent. In rebirth you had for example Batman one shotting Solmon Grundy in Batman, and a little bit later in RHatO Grundy could only be stopped by Bizzaro.


I would discard anything writen by king.

----------


## Aahz

> Then there's Azrael. He's fought both before, but I never read it. All I heard was Bruce beat Azrael in Knightsend, his fight with Dick was interrupted in Eternal, and in the berserk mode, he can fight Cassandra and Batwoman at the same time. 
> So, normal Azrael for me is the bottom of this tier, but berserk mode Azrael is top tier.


Burce didn't beat him in a fight in Knightsend, he iirc tricked him a situation where had to take of the suit, which led to him switching back from Azrael to Jean-Paul. His power level beeing inconsitent is actually part of how his powers work, but at his strongest he is imo significantly above every other Batfamily member.

Appart from this Tim stated several times that he is not on the same level as Jason and the others (the last time in during Lonley Place of Living).

Damian is for me still a case I can't really take serious, if you go by his own book, he would probably be already be better than Bruce in almost everything.

Like I said before going by actual fights is imo often questionable, because fights often go how the plots demand it, and there is quite often PIS or a writer pushing his favourites involved. Appart from this most writers will usually avoid making one character weak in comparison to an other. The female characters are for example often in a team up written as strong their their male counter parts even if they usually had (with exception off Cassandra) far less training (and/or quality of training) and experience.

----------


## AJpyro

Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?

----------


## Assam

> Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?


She didn't ever learn proper ASL, but in her earliest appearances she tended to communicate through specific physical gestures, such as greeting people by reaching out a fist. 

It'd still be great to see RebirthCass learn and back in the day having her learn ASL would have been better by leaps and bounds than the mess with the psychic.

----------


## dietrich

> Burce didn't beat him in a fight in Knightsend, he iirc tricked him a situation where had to take of the suit, which led to him switching back from Azrael to Jean-Paul. His power level beeing inconsitent is actually part of how his powers work, but at his strongest he is imo significantly above every other Batfamily member.
> 
> Appart from this Tim stated several times that he is not on the same level as Jason and the others (the last time in during Lonley Place of Living).
> 
> Damian is for me still a case I can't really take serious, if you go by his own book, he would probably be already be better than Bruce in almost everything.
> 
> Like I said before going by actual fights is imo often questionable, because fights often go how the plots demand it, and there is quite often PIS or a writer pushing his favourites involved. Appart from this most writers will usually avoid making one character weak in comparison to an other. The female characters are for example often in a team up written as strong their their male counter parts even if they usually had (with exception off Cassandra) far less training (and/or quality of training) and experience.


Damian IS better than Bruce in everything [in my head] and re Tim stomping Damian an uninterrupted fight can't be called. Like in Robin war Damian beat Jason to a knock out or into submission that is a win. had tim stopped that fight then I would be reluctant to give the win to Damian.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> She didn't ever learn proper ASL, but in her earliest appearances she tended to communicate through specific physical gestures, such as greeting people by reaching out a fist. 
> 
> It'd still be great to see RebirthCass learn and back in the day having her learn ASL would have been better by leaps and bounds than the mess with the psychic.


My favorite gesture;

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

Lets all just agree that Cass is at the top of the 'best fighters' lineup, okay?  :Wink:

----------


## The Whovian

> Lets all just agree that Cass is at the top of the 'best fighters' lineup, okay?


Agreed. She is the best

----------


## Blight

> Hey did Cassandra ever learn sign language?



She knew a little bit of it. There was a "lost issue" that was supposed to actually delve into that more. It featured Cass protecting a child who knew of it and was being targeted by Killer Moth (who was in his Underworld Unleashed form). A few years back the pages that were made were auctioned off on ebay (the artist worked on 90s Ghost Rider). I bought one of these pages. A few years back someone else drew a version of the pages too. Let me go find a scan of the page.

----------


## Blight

This is the page I own:

tumblr_inline_nhgj9x1NPD1s60p86.jpg

Javier Saltares drew it and Rob Leigh inked it. Eleven pages exist of this lost issue (since they were put out on ebay at the time). I'm gonna assume this was going to be intented for #38.

----------


## Assam

Oh wow! That is so cool! Didn't even know this existed.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

i knew i've heard about it, but i never actually saw it, beautiful !  :Smile:

----------


## bat_girl_cc

i, kinda worried that Bryan wont get Cass nor the others as well as Tynion, for all his faults unlike Tom King, you can tell that Tynion has been reading bat-family...Bryan hum...well see.

----------


## Assam

> i, kinda worried that Bryan wont get Cass nor the others as well as Tynion, for all his faults unlike Tom King, you can tell that Tynion has been reading bat-family...Bryan hum...well see.


You really need to follow Hill on Twitter. Some of his tweets have been posted in this thread, but the man is a gigantic Cass fans, constantly gushing about her in different ways and having mentioned that she's his favorite DC character after Bruce. Add in that his writing is a number of steps above Tynion's and you really don't have anything to worry about. Just be hyped.

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> You really need to follow Hill on Twitter. Some of his tweets have been posted in this thread, but the man is a gigantic Cass fans, constantly gushing about her in different ways and having mentioned that she's his favorite DC character after Bruce. Add in that his writing is a number of steps above Tynion's and you really don't have anything to worry about. Just be hyped.


 :Smile: 

I'll check Bryan Twitters out, thanks  :Wink:

----------


## Assam

Fuhrer Queen Cass by m4stry on Tumblr 

fuhrer queen.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Fuhrer Queen Cass by m4stry on Tumblr 
> 
> fuhrer queen.jpg


Feels like an _Avatar_ character...

----------


## Assam

> Feels like an _Avatar_ character...


Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, actually.  :Smile: 

bradley.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> My favorite gesture;


What happened here? For some reason I found this funny.

----------


## Frontier

> Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, actually. 
> 
> bradley.jpg


Oh, I was wondering why you said Fuhrer. I get it now  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## adrikito

> Right on! Bryan is looking like a great, next DC author for Cass fans.
> 
> Bryan's thoughts on Cass' fighting are in line with Tom's:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...94791902887936


Seriouslly? He is in the TOP 5? And where is Damian? Cass is the only female here, only because she is the best.

----------


## Katana500

> Seriouslly? He is in the TOP 5? And where is Damian?


I dont think its meant to be the whole family its probably just people Hill plans to use or just a random selection.

Plus I agree with Tim being lower than Duke. Tim doesnt need to be a better hand to hand fighter than other members since him like Barbara mostly rely on strategy and tactics rather than pure fighting prowess.  :Smile:  but with things like this no one will ever agree i guess but thats part of the fun

----------


## Assam

> What happened here? For some reason I found this funny.


You found it funny because it's _meant_ to be funny.  :Stick Out Tongue:  As for the context: 

b2 7.jpg




> Oh, I was wondering why you said Fuhrer. I get it now .


The artist also did Damian as Pride and Jason as Greed. 




> Seriouslly? He is in the TOP 5? And where is Damian?.


(Please no one latch onto this as an excuse to start a power level debate.) 

After he posted this, someone asked him about Damian. He said that he thinks in terms of pure H2H skill he's above Jason, but would still be likely to lose more often than not because of how easy it is for an opponent to get inside his head and rile him up.

----------


## Aahz

> After he posted this, someone asked him about Damian. He said that he thinks in terms of pure H2H skill he's above Jason, but would still be likely to lose more often than not because of how easy it is for an opponent to get inside his head and rile him up.


I find it a little bit wired to put him above Jason but below Dick, there is imo not really difference between those two, and if Damians training was that great why is Dick still better?

----------


## Frontier

> The artist also did Damian as Pride and Jason as Greed.


I can definitely see the similarities. 

(This reminds me that it's kind of surprising that Troy Baker (Greed's second English VA) hasn't voiced Red Hood yet).  



> After he posted this, someone asked him about Damian. He said that he thinks in terms of pure H2H skill he's above Jason, but would still be likely to lose more often than not because of how easy it is for an opponent to get inside his head and rile him up.


That's how Tim beat him, after all.

----------


## Caivu

By Rich Hennemann:

Screenshot_20180506-200147.jpg

----------


## The Whovian

> By Rich Hennemann:
> 
> Screenshot_20180506-200147.jpg


WHOA!!!! That is awesome! Who is this Henemann and why haven't I seen his work before?!

Look at the detail in this. And there's Batman in the background!!

----------


## Assam

I feel like we already knew this, but we have confirmation that Tom Taylor is a fan. 

https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...33052356780032

If Hill does right by Cass as I think he will then he should definitely get any potential solo with her, but Taylor is still one of the writers I'd most like to see get a crack at writing her. 

Also reaffirmation of James Gunn being a fan. 

https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/993339780992823296

----------


## Frontier

> I feel like we already knew this, but we have confirmation that Tom Taylor is a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...33052356780032
> 
> If Hill does right by Cass as I think he will then he should definitely get any potential solo with her, but Taylor is still one of the writers I'd most like to see get a crack at writing her. 
> 
> Also reaffirmation of James Gunn being a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/993339780992823296


Always nice to see more Cass fans among comic book professionals (both in comics and movies)  :Smile: .

I'm curious to see if Taylor taking a crack at Cass would be different from how he handled Laura in All-New Wolverine. I guess probably the biggest difference is who he has available to guest star in the book. 

And I'm glad Gunn agrees on how awesome a costume Cass had  :Big Grin: .

----------


## Raijin

> I feel like we already knew this, but we have confirmation that Tom Taylor is a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...33052356780032
> 
> If Hill does right by Cass as I think he will then he should definitely get any potential solo with her, but Taylor is still one of the writers I'd most like to see get a crack at writing her. 
> 
> Also reaffirmation of James Gunn being a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/993339780992823296


I think Taylor could write a good Early 2000's Cass. I say Early 2000's because that's the only version I know of. I don't know anything about her New 52/Rebirth stuff and I'm scared to even find out.

----------


## Assam

> I don't know anything about her New 52/Rebirth stuff and I'm scared to even find out.


My take: Do not view RebirthCass as the exact same character. In nearly every way, classicCass is insurmountably superior (although credit where its due to Tynion for not doing anything similar to the psychic from the original series), but if you just see RebirthCass the same way you'd see a media adaptation of a character, she's still one of the best characters in the DCU and still 'Cass'. 

As far as the stories she's been in goes, you definitely shouldn't read Batman and Robin:Eternal (except for issue #13, which is pretty great) and I can't really recommend 'Tec. Cass has, usually, been one of the few characters in the book to be consistently written well and most detractors of the book tend to cite Cass and Clayface's friendship as the book's saving grace. Problem is, despite all that, she doesn't get much to do (Tim  and Kate REALLY hog the panel time in the book) and of the six major arcs which have finished (the last arc has two issues to go), two have been hot garbage, two have been passable and two were almost great (including Cass's focus arc) but they were both held back by a myriad of problems, not the least of which being that both of them were set-ups for future arcs which will now never happen. 

Regardless of it you read any of that though, I guess you'll be meeting RebirthCass for the first time in Hill's run.

----------


## millernumber1

> My take: Do not view RebirthCass as the exact same character. In nearly every way, classicCass is insurmountably superior (although credit where its due to Tynion for not doing anything similar to the psychic from the original series), but if you just see RebirthCass the same way you'd see a media adaptation of a character, she's still one of the best characters in the DCU and still 'Cass'. 
> 
> As far as the stories she's been in goes, you definitely shouldn't read Batman and Robin:Eternal (except for issue #13, which is pretty great) and I can't really recommend 'Tec. Cass has, usually, been one of the few characters in the book to be consistently written well and most detractors of the book tend to cite Cass and Clayface's friendship as the book's saving grace. Problem is, despite all that, she doesn't get much to do (Tim  and Kate REALLY hog the panel time in the book) and of the six major arcs which have finished (the last arc has two issues to go), two have been hot garbage, two have been passable and two were almost great (including Cass's focus arc) but they were both held back by a myriad of problems, not the least of which being that both of them were set-ups for future arcs which will now never happen. 
> 
> Regardless of it you read any of that though, I guess you'll be meeting RebirthCass for the first time in Hill's run.


A fair analysis, especially from a Cass-centric perspective. I do completely agree that Cass has been a different character since she was returned to continuity (though I think the differences are still well withing the range of what one can expect from Cass given different writers are always coming in and out). I do think Tynion's Tec has some really excellent stuff for Cass, and is generally worth reading, especially for her relationship with Basil, and for issues like #950, which like Batman and Robin Eternal #13, are a really lovely Cass solo story.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> A fair analysis, especially from a Cass-centric perspective. I do completely agree that Cass has been a different character since she was returned to continuity (though I think the differences are still well withing the range of what one can expect from Cass given different writers are always coming in and out). I do think Tynion's Tec has some really excellent stuff for Cass, and is generally worth reading, especially for her relationship with Basil, and for issues like #950, which like Batman and Robin Eternal #13, are a really lovely Cass solo story.


What was Cassandra personality like in Post-Crisis anyway?

----------


## Assam

I'm okay...I'm okay. 

amazing 2.jpg

amazing 1.jpg

amazing 3.jpg 

I can breath. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

----------


## Cmbmool

> I'm okay...I'm okay. 
> 
> amazing 2.jpg
> 
> amazing 1.jpg
> 
> amazing 3.jpg 
> 
> I can breath. 
> ...


Long overdue if you asked me.

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

> I'm okay...I'm okay. 
> 
> amazing 2.jpg
> 
> amazing 1.jpg
> 
> amazing 3.jpg 
> 
> I can breath. 
> ...


Is it wrong I got teary eyed when I saw those panels in real life just now????

----------


## adrikito

> i feel like we already knew this, but we have confirmation that tom taylor is a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...33052356780032
> 
> if hill does right by cass as i think he will then he should definitely get any potential solo with her, but taylor is still one of the writers i'd most like to see get a crack at writing her. 
> 
> Also reaffirmation of james gunn being a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/jamesgunn/status/993339780992823296


good signal.




> I'm okay...I'm okay. 
> 
> amazing 2.jpg
> 
> amazing 1.jpg
> 
> amazing 3.jpg 
> 
> I can breath. 
> ...


I liked this even more than I expected.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> I feel like we already knew this, but we have confirmation that Tom Taylor is a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/TomTaylorMade/st...33052356780032
> 
> If Hill does right by Cass as I think he will then he should definitely get any potential solo with her, but Taylor is still one of the writers I'd most like to see get a crack at writing her. 
> 
> Also reaffirmation of James Gunn being a fan. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/JamesGunn/status/993339780992823296


Tom's work on All New Wolverine and X-men Red would be a shoe in to write for Cass. I would have loved to have seen it.

----------


## StonedVolus

> Is it wrong I got teary eyed when I saw those panels in real life just now????


If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.

EDIT: References to prior Cass moments. I recognised them straight away.
bg.jpg

----------


## Cmbmool

IF ANYTHING IS TO COME FROM DOOMSDAY CLOCK, Then let Cass regain her position in the Batman family. I would love to see her more included in these Batman family moments.

----------


## PyroTwilight

About the only bit I found odd in the Cass splash was joking about her "Orphan" codename. Isn't that well, just a codename because her dad was an "Orphan" too codename wise? That's what someone's told me before anyway.

----------


## Assam

> If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.





> I recognized them straight away.
> bg.jpg


Same. 




> About the only bit I found odd in the Cass splash was joking about her "Orphan" codename. Isn't that well, just a codename because her dad was an "Orphan" too codename wise? That's what someone's told me before anyway.


Its been explained a few times, primarily in #950, that the codename, to her, has really been about how alone she feels in the world. 

I look forward to never seeing her referred to by that name again after #981.

----------


## Digifiend

She's not actually an orphan anyway - Mom's alive. Plus, she IS part of the Bat family... albeit not as closely as she used to be.

I did notice, the solicit for the new storyline only calls her Cassandra Cain, no codename. Could be to hide the fact she's changing it?

----------


## millernumber1

> She's not actually an orphan anyway - Mom's alive. Plus, she IS part of the Bat family... albeit not as closely as she used to be.
> 
> I did notice, the solicit for the new storyline only calls her Cassandra Cain, no codename. Could be to hide the fact she's changing it?


Well...her mom is technically dead right now. Not that anyone thinks it'll stay that way.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Well...her mom is technically dead right now. Not that anyone thinks it'll stay that way.


Too bad Tynion could pick up a possible Lady Shiva resurrection story before his run closes it'll be down to the next writer maybe Hill to pick it up maybe during his run provided it's not just a story that simply involve recruiting members for the Outsiders..

----------


## Restingvoice

Jim Lee is streaming
Dc7JuH_VwAAa2dY.jpg

----------


## adrikito

> jim lee is streaming
> Dc7JuH_VwAAa2dY.jpg


Good Image. This is the kind of Batgirl that I can respect.

----------


## Celgress

> Jim Lee is streaming
> Dc7JuH_VwAAa2dY.jpg


A beautiful piece that captures the essence of the character perfectly.  :Cool:

----------


## Caivu

By David Yett:

Screenshot_20180511-141219.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Jim Lee is streaming
> Dc7JuH_VwAAa2dY.jpg


Hmm...something feels off about this, but I just can't quite put my finger on it. 



> By David Yett:
> 
> Screenshot_20180511-141219.jpg


Awesome  :Wink: .

----------


## Blight

> Jim Lee is streaming
> Dc7JuH_VwAAa2dY.jpg


Wasn't that from a month ago? Glad he finally scanned that. Now I have a NEW android wallpaper. :Big Grin:

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I'm curious, anyone else going to miss the friendship between Cass and Basil? I actually liked it and it had a bit of an interesting feel to it. Sort of like Vic and Garth's friendship in some ways. I was kind of hoping for him to wind up being able to stick around as a ally to her.

----------


## Frontier

> I'm curious, anyone else going to miss the friendship between Cass and Basil? I actually liked it and it had a bit of an interesting feel to it. Sort of like Vic and Garth's friendship in some ways. I was kind of hoping for him to wind up being able to stick around as a ally to her.


I'm curious to see if it'll be brought back up when Clayface inevitably comes back.

----------


## Assam

> I'm curious, anyone else going to miss the friendship between Cass and Basil?


I imagine a lot of people will. Look around online and Cass and Basil's friendship was generally one of the most well liked parts of the book. 




> I was kind of hoping for him to wind up being able to stick around as a ally to her.


Same. For all of his faults writing most of the preexisting Knights, Tynion did manage to make Basil one of my favorite BatFam members.

----------


## adrikito

> I'm curious, anyone else going to miss the friendship between Cass and Basil?


Many people, sure. I hope not see Cass and Basil as enemies in the future as if nothing happened.

----------


## Zurr-en-arrh

Today i just finish of read the third tpb of cassie as batgirl and i really enjoyed the 37 issues but can't find any more trades  and there are like 75 issues! Is dc having a plan to have more trades of this comic? Also what i most enjoyed was the friendship that cassie has with steph. Now i will read the 2 trades of her as batgirl while i wait more for cassie.

----------


## Darkspellmaster

I just recently found some very cool art of Cass as Liloand Basil as stitch. It was so cute.

And yes I hope when he does comeback that Cass will be the one to bring him back into the family. I always thought that Basil could be one of the few like Riddler and ivy who could be a hero.

----------


## Assam

> Today i just finish of read the third tpb of cassie as batgirl and i really enjoyed the 37 issues but can't find any more trades  and there are like 75 issues!�� Is dc having a plan to have more trades of this comic? Also what i most enjoyed was the friendship that cassie has with steph. Now i will read the 2 trades of her as batgirl while i wait more for cassie.


Welcome to the forum and welcome to the fandom.  :Smile: 

As it stands, a fourth volume sadly hasn't been solicited. The second half of the book as a whole isn't nearly as good as the Puckett/Scott run, but there _are_ plenty of amazing issues and major highlights for you to look forward to. 




> I just recently found some very cool art of Cass as Liloand Basil as stitch. It was so cute.


Mind sharing? That sounds adorable. 




> And yes I hope when he does comeback that Cass will be the one to bring him back into the family. I always thought that Basil could be one of the few like Riddler and ivy who could be a hero.


Were I given a solo spinning out of 'Tec, I have a pretty clear general idea about how I'd handle it. A few arcs in, I'd have 'Basil' pop up before Cass during a patrol, in complete control of himself but with no memory of how he came back, the two going on to spend a brief period together, having a good time. it'd soon be revealed that 'Basil' was actually one of the other Clayfaces in disguise, having seen old news video footage of Cass and Basil fighting together in the field and attempting to get to Batman through her. At the moment he thinks he's been brought to Batman's HQ, mocking Cass and how easy it was to fool her, it'd be revealed that she lead him into a trap, freezing him, and tearfully revealing that she knew he wasn't real all along from his body language. She just wanted to pretend for a bit. 

Sometime later, the actual Basil would come back, but the Clayface personality would have complete control and it would have an _obsession_ with hurting Cass. He'd spend time as the big bad of the book, popping in and out of focus, with Cass still wanting to save him no matter how many different ways he hurts her (sort of like Angelus in season 2 of Buffy, but with a more general toxic relationship theme as opposed to the abusive boyfriend story done there). The storyline would end with Cass managing to cure Basil with assistance from other BatFam members and since he's already legally dead they're able to avoid the legal system, but Basil would be completely traumatized from being in the backseat during all of Clayface's monstrous actions. He'd join the supporting cast, initially as a figure for Cass to help someone else through their trauma, the way _he_ was there for her in this continuity, and ultimately getting his life back together in a new identity.

----------


## Frontier

> Same. For all of his faults writing most of the preexisting Knights, Tynion did manage to make Basil one of my favorite BatFam members.


He really did manage to bring the humanity back to Clayface, which we haven't had in a really long time.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...96320633634816

Johns being a fan _does_ track. 

Also, some cool art by cadhla182 and vavitsara on Tumblr respectively. 

shadow.jpg

sibs.jpg

----------


## dsjericho

I admit, I'm still nervous.  One thing I hope they don't toss her into are the little romances.  I loved her friendships but didn't particularly like the flirtations; maybe because there wasn't much consistency.

----------


## Assam

> I admit, I'm still nervous.  One thing I hope they don't toss her into are the little romances.  I loved her friendships but didn't particularly like the flirtations; maybe because there wasn't much consistency.


Yeah, the random romances she kept getting weren't handled well at all. The romance with Kon COULD have worked, but it never went anywhere. 

I'm definitely not against Cass in romances though. These days I pledge alleigance to CassXBrenda, but CassXSteph is also great. 

Mostly jokingly, I've seen some people say they think she and Duke are gonna get paired up and BOY do I really hope that doesn't happen.

----------


## dsjericho

> Yeah, the random romances she kept getting weren't handled well at all. The romance with Kon COULD have worked, but it never went anywhere. 
> 
> I'm definitely not against Cass in romances though. These days I pledge alleigance to CassXBrenda, but CassXSteph is also great. 
> 
> Mostly jokingly, I've seen some people say they think she and Duke are gonna get paired up and BOY do I really hope that doesn't happen.


Whatever they do, I'd like her to be atypical in some way because she can be a wonderfully subversive character.  Socialized to be a killer ... who's loves hugs.  Hugely intimidating ... and a sweetheart.  I don't think I would necessarily mind a romance as long as it's not whatever stereotypical teenage thing writers tend to fall back on.  Cass hasn't received the same daily messaging the rest of society has, she shouldn't respond like others who grew up surrounded by that sort of conditioning.  What would 'romance' look like to her?

She's got a lot to figure out - it's sad but I _loved_ her wondering if maybe they'd kill her, too - and it seems like romance would be quite a ways down on that list.  Maybe they'll pleasantly surprise me ... okay, no, I'm not that optimistic.   :Smile:

----------


## Agent Z

So I don't know if you heard but Paramount has a G.I Joe movie starring Snake Eyes.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/g-i-joe-is-r...mov-1825963176

For those not familiar, Snake Eyes is the ninja member of the counter-terrorist organization known as G.I Joe and is mostly known for the fact that he does not speak. Whether he is physically incapable of it or simply chooses not to depends on the continuity. Anyway my point is, it's a shame Paramount is taking a chance on a mute character while DC/WB seems not to.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> So I don't know if you heard but Paramount has a G.I Joe movie starring Snake Eyes.
> 
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/g-i-joe-is-r...mov-1825963176
> 
> For those not familiar, Snake Eyes is the ninja member of the counter-terrorist organization known as G.I Joe and is mostly known for the fact that he does not speak. Whether he is physically incapable of it or simply chooses not to depends on the continuity. Anyway my point is, it's a shame Paramount is taking a chance on a mute character while DC/WB seems not to.


IF you are talking about Cassandra Cain she's not exactly mute not in the way most know anyway so she might not qualify as one since she simply has trouble reading and speaking so that's not being mute that being both illiterate and having some sort of speech impediment.

----------


## DragonPiece

> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...96320633634816
> 
> Johns being a fan _does_ track. 
> 
> Also, some cool art by cadhla182 and vavitsara on Tumblr respectively. 
> 
> shadow.jpg
> 
> sibs.jpg


Bryan talking with Geoff shows DC is putting a lot of faith into his Outsiders run, excited to see how it turns out.

----------


## Assam

> Bryan talking with Geoff shows DC is putting a lot of faith into his Outsiders run, excited to see how it turns out.


It's also possible the two were just chatting while on the 'Titans' set, but it definitely would be nice to see the book get a solid push.

----------


## adrikito

> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...96320633634816
> 
> Johns being a fan _does_ track. 
> 
> Also, some cool art by cadhla182 and vavitsara on Tumblr respectively. 
> 
> shadow.jpg
> 
> sibs.jpg


Good images. Strange mask, but I like to see her face.

Bruce will adopt her in the Outsiders? Or this kind of step is more for Batman comics?

----------


## Assam

https://www.cbr.com/gotham-season-5-...ampaign=CBR-TW

I might have to watch Gotham now...

All the times I've denounced Cass's lack of media appearances...this isn't what I wanted.  :Frown:

----------


## Armor of God

It might be David Cain

----------


## Assam

> It might be David Cain


Yes, but they also mention Mother and Shiva. It'd be slightly ridiculous if they had all of them but not Cass. 

Frankly I'm not sure whether I'm hoping she is or isn't going to be in this.

----------


## Cmbmool

> https://www.cbr.com/gotham-season-5-...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> I might have to watch Gotham now...
> 
> All the times I've denounced Cass's lack of media appearances...this isn't what I wanted.


If they pull this off, then this could be a start in showcasing Cass outside of the comics and make her fanbase grow outside of the comics.

----------


## okiedokiewo

> Yes, but they also mention Mother and Shiva. It'd be slightly ridiculous if they had all of them but not Cass. 
> 
> Frankly I'm not sure whether I'm hoping she is or isn't going to be in this.


It would not be ridiculous since she wouldn't even be born yet. Are you familiar with Gotham? Bruce is a teen.

----------


## sakuyamons

> It would not be ridiculous since she wouldn't even be born yet. Are you familiar with Gotham? Bruce is a teen.


But on this season he is becoming Batman.

Also hello everyone! Haven’t read comics in a while (I am going to catch up eventually though). What did I miss?

----------


## Assam

> It would not be ridiculous since she wouldn't even be born yet. Are you familiar with Gotham? Bruce is a teen.


I've never watched a minute of the show, but I am familiar with the premise. And from what I've heard, bringing in characters that don't make sense based off the comic timeline is something they've done plenty of times before.

----------


## Assam

> Also hello everyone! Haven’t read comics in a while (I am going to catch up eventually though). What did I miss?


Eyy, good to hear from you Sakuyamons! 

What did you miss? Not sure what the last thing you read was.

----------


## Frontier

> https://www.cbr.com/gotham-season-5-...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> I might have to watch Gotham now...
> 
> All the times I've denounced Cass's lack of media appearances...this isn't what I wanted.


I want to see Donovan Morgan Grant react to this  :Stick Out Tongue: .

I mean, I can see "Orphan" being Cass but I'm really not sure i see this show doing Shiva or Cass justice.

----------


## Agent Z

> If they pull this off, then this could be a start in showcasing Cass outside of the comics and make her fanbase grow outside of the comics.


I don't think Gotham is the way to go. Putting aside this show's reputation, she will be appearing in the final season of the show which is not enough time to build interest in the character.

----------


## Armor of God

> I've never watched a minute of the show, but I am familiar with the premise. And from what I've heard, bringing in characters that don't make sense based off the comic timeline is something they've done plenty of times before.


This is true, they dont really care about the timeline whatsoever.

----------


## Armor of God

> I don't think Gotham is the way to go. Putting aside this show's reputation, she will be appearing in the final season of the show which is not enough time to build interest in the character.


I've also heard that its going to be a short season anyway, like 10 or 13 episodes airing in 2019 and then it'll sort of get replaced by Pennyworth.

----------


## adrikito

> https://www.cbr.com/gotham-season-5-...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> I might have to watch Gotham now...
> 
> All the times I've denounced Cass's lack of media appearances...this isn't what I wanted.


WHAT? Batman is not in this serie, only Bruce.

Hmmm.. if you put this here, I should read this article.

----------


## Aahz

> And from what I've heard, bringing in characters that don't make sense based off the comic timeline is something they've done plenty of times before.


But bringing in Cass is imo diffrent from letting some of the classic villains appear before Bruce started as Batman or using some of the established Police officers.

And Btw. they had also some completely new character take on mantels from the comic, like Azrael nor Firefly for example.

I think we will have to wait and see.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> But bringing in Cass is imo diffrent from letting some of the classic villains appear before Bruce started as Batman or using some of the established Police officers.
> 
> And Btw. they had also some completely new character take on mantels from the comic, like Azrael nor Firefly for example.
> 
> I think we will have to wait and see.


Perhaps, but this series still hasn't managed to influence canon so I wouldn't worry.

----------


## Armor of God

Cass makes her debut

https://youtu.be/WVXX_HplIN8

LOL

----------


## Assam

> Cass makes her debut
> 
> https://youtu.be/WVXX_HplIN8
> 
> LOL


See I already knew this wasn't the case (it's just some random boy credited as 'Orphan'), but it's still not cool to maybe get other people's hopes up. 

Still wouldn't completely rule Cass out of season 5 though.

----------


## Armor of God

It was a joke man. I assumed people had already watched the episode, it just seemed funny.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hang on. Why are we assuming Orphan is Cassandra Cain? Orphan is the name of Mother's children with David Cain at the top. Makes more sense for it to be David.  
...
Oh it's CBR jumping the gun again

----------


## frostedemma

So i just finished my annual re reading of cass batgirl run and it's such a shame dc decided to reduce her to basically a d list character in n52 and rebirth. she went from being the first batgirl with a solo run (and a long one at that) to the only comic where she has appearances is detective comics.....

----------


## frostedemma

Also I always felt like cass batgirl run and its popularity somehow started the trend of writing darker teenage female character and exploring their trauma in comics. I'm convinced cass cain inspired marjorie liu x-23 run. I'm not saying that before batgirl there was no fictional teenage girl with trauma and dark themes in comics (after all the new mutants exist) but centring an entire book on a  teenage girl trauma and consistently exploring dark themes in said book? Yeah i feel like cass cain allowed for that in mainstream comics

----------


## Fergus

> https://www.cbr.com/gotham-season-5-...ampaign=CBR-TW
> 
> I might have to watch Gotham now...
> 
> All the times I've denounced Cass's lack of media appearances...this isn't what I wanted.


I don't watch the show but might try it just for Cass.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Also I always felt like cass batgirl run and its popularity somehow started the trend of writing darker teenage female character and exploring their trauma in comics. I'm convinced cass cain inspired marjorie liu x-23 run. I'm not saying that before batgirl there was no fictional teenage girl with trauma and dark themes in comics (after all the new mutants exist) but centring an entire book on a  teenage girl trauma and consistently exploring dark themes in said book? Yeah i feel like cass cain allowed for that in mainstream comics


Hmm what about Damian Wayne who debut much later you think he was part of the trend? Though how do you know it's a trend when there are only two girls?

----------


## frostedemma

> Hmm what about Damian Wayne who debut much later you think he was part of the trend? Though how do you know it's a trend when there are only two girls?


I whole heartedly believe damian wayne is an cass cain expy. As much as i like damian i think its a shame he basically replaced cass in n52 and rebirth. Also yes there was only two girls who with major solo (x-23 is pretty iconic tho) i think it allowed for teenage girls in comics to be dark and have their trauma explored. Characters like surge, kate bishop (after the first young avengers girl she's become more quirky tho) and a few others i'm forgetting. But then n52 batgirl came and kinda erased all of that because now the fixation with female characters is too make them as quirky and upbeat as possible which isn't inherently wrong but when you forgo a female character trauma, disability, past characterisation and etc all for the sake of quirkiness it starts to be a problem

----------


## The Dying Detective

> I whole heartedly believe damian wayne is an cass cain expy. As much as i like damian i think its a shame he basically replaced cass in n52 and rebirth. Also yes there was only two girls who with major solo (x-23 is pretty iconic tho) i think it allowed for teenage girls in comics to be dark and have their trauma explored. Characters like surge, kate bishop (after the first young avengers girl she's become more quirky tho) and a few others i'm forgetting. But then n52 batgirl came and kinda erased all of that because now the fixation with female characters is too make them as quirky and upbeat as possible which isn't inherently wrong but when you forgo a female character trauma, disability, past characterisation and etc all for the sake of quirkiness it starts to be a problem


But hmm you don't say though Damian's creation originates more from an old Elseworld story Son of the Demon that had been retconned in and out of continuity where Bruce and Talia were married and Talia became pregnant only for her to fake a miscarriage and put up the baby who would be Damian up for adoption. The details of Son of the Demon have been retconned back in but they are a little hazy. Under Grant Morrison it was drug rape while Tomasi stipulates that Batman lost his head and gave into a moment of passion with Talia. Hmm I guess that makes sense though Kate Bishop and Surge seem to come more from different mold than from Cassandra Cain and X-23 though. So I'm not sure whether Surge or Kate Bishop was part of the trend.

----------


## frostedemma

> But hmm you don't say though Damian's creation originates more from an old Elseworld story Son of the Demon that had been retconned in and out of continuity where Bruce and Talia were married and Talia became pregnant only for her to fake a miscarriage and put up the baby who would be Damian up for adoption. The details of Son of the Demon have been retconned back in but they are a little hazy. Under Grant Morrison it was drug rape while Tomasi stipulates that Batman lost his head and gave into a moment of passion with Talia. Hmm I guess that makes sense though Kate Bishop and Surge seem to come more from different mold than from Cassandra Cain and X-23 though. So I'm not sure whether Surge or Kate Bishop was part of the trend.


Kate bishop does come from a different mould but her assault in central park did leave her extremely traumatised and there is that one issue in young avengers where jessica and kate talk about their trauma. While surge wasn't raised as a weapon like cass and laura, noriko is a teenage runaway like them and she has a dark past of her own being a homeless youth and suffering from addiction

----------


## adrikito

congratulations for the 200th page Cass.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Kate bishop does come from a different mould but her assault in central park did leave her extremely traumatised and there is that one issue in young avengers where jessica and kate talk about their trauma. While surge wasn't raised as a weapon like cass and laura, noriko is a teenage runaway like them and she has a dark past of her own being a homeless youth and suffering from addiction


I honestly thought the trend was child assassins though not characters suffering from trauma because it's not a new thing since you have Jessica Jones and Carol Danvers who preceded Kate Bishop, Surge, Cassandra Cain, and X-23.

----------


## Aahz

> But then n52 batgirl came and kinda erased all of that because now the fixation with female characters is too make them as quirky and upbeat as possible which isn't inherently wrong but when you forgo a female character trauma, disability, past characterisation and etc all for the sake of quirkiness it starts to be a problem


The n52 Batgirl was actually quite dark for roughl the first 3 years.

Damian seems for me an other archetype than Cass. Due to him being a bratty child. And he has also several copies (like Emiko or Hitgirl).


And I would suspect that both existed probably first in Manga, even if I can't give an example (I'm not a big manga fan).

----------


## adrikito

> Damian seems for me an other archetype than Cass. Due to him being a bratty child. And he has also several copies (like Emiko or Hitgirl).
> .


I heard that this Hitgirl is more like WALLER now:

https://www.cbr.com/mark-millar-hit-...er-comparison/

----------


## Caivu

Nice, 200 pages!

----------


## Assam

Wooh! 200 Pages!  :Big Grin: 




> So i just finished my annual re reading of cass batgirl run


I love that there's a bunch of us who do these. I'm probably gonna do mine after Tynion's last issue comes out on Wednesday. Really hoping he sticks the landing and makes it a celebratory re-reading. 




> The n52 Batgirl was actually quite dark for roughl the first 3 years.


One of the most common criticisms I've seen of the book was that it was overly grimdark. Based on the little I've seen, that sounds about right.

----------


## frostedemma

> I honestly thought the trend was child assassins though not characters suffering from trauma because it's not a new thing since you have Jessica Jones and Carol Danvers who preceded Kate Bishop, Surge, Cassandra Cain, and X-23.


Jessica Jones does not precede cass cain jess was created in 2001 while cass was in 1999. Cass batgirl run started a year before alias started. Carol Danvers suffered from trauma but its never been explored the way it has for characters like cass, jess, laura and etc

----------


## frostedemma

> The n52 Batgirl was actually quite dark for roughl the first 3 years.
> 
> Damian seems for me an other archetype than Cass. Due to him being a bratty child. And he has also several copies (like Emiko or Hitgirl).
> 
> 
> And I would suspect that both existed probably first in Manga, even if I can't give an example (I'm not a big manga fan).


n52 batgirl was dark because the circumstances of gotham was dark but babs was infantilised and had all the development she had during her oracle stint erased

----------


## Aahz

> n52 batgirl was dark because the circumstances of gotham was dark but babs was infantilised and had all the development she had during her oracle stint erased


But she was not written "as quirky and upbeat as possible" that really started with Burnside, before she was way more mature, and her trauma from Killing Joke was still was iirc also not ignored, and was imo more present than in the later stories of the pre  flashpoint BoP.

----------


## Dataweaver

Coming in late; I just got Detective 980. And more than ever, I want next issue to end with Cassandra and Stephanie with the bat emblem on their costumes. In Cass' case, consider it the payoff to the “not an orphan, but family” line in this issue; and pair it with a codename change.

After that, how about a new Birds of Prey series centering around Babs, Dinah, Helena, Cassandra, and Stephanie?

----------


## dsjericho

I don't think I'd complain if Cass [especially] wound up with the Bat-symbol again but I lean more to wanting that to be a slower burn.  Is anyone even trying to teach her how to read, yet?  Basil gave her a book of Shakespeare but how well can she read it?  I think (I think?) it's been pretty well established that Bruce really hasn't been spending much time around her.  I'd like to see her around the Manor (and Alfred) and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Cass put Damian on the floor a few more times.  :Stick Out Tongue:   So casual.

I think I prefer Stephanie as Spoiler and more of a scrapper/striver, not necessarily with the symbol, though I wouldn't complain about that either.  Honestly, I'm not particular where they end up, or with whom, I just want them around and visible with loads of badassery and character growth; and I want the friendship between Cass and Steph to be an ongoing thing.  That was hardly explored and I hope it's not dropped.

----------


## Assam

> After that, how about a new Birds of Prey series centering around Babs, Dinah, Helena, Cassandra, and Stephanie?


Sounds good to me, but I'm just hoping she's in any other book alongside Outsiders. Not that we're in a position to be picky, but I don't want Duke to be the _only_ Bat she regularly interacts with. 




> I don't think I'd complain if Cass [especially] wound up with the Bat-symbol again but I lean more to wanting that to be a slower burn.


Its been almost 3 years since she came back. I'd say things have moved slow enough. 




> Is anyone even trying to teach her how to read, yet?  Basil gave her a book of Shakespeare but how well can she read it?  I think (I think?) it's been pretty well established that Bruce really hasn't been spending much time around her.  I'd like to see her around the Manor (and Alfred) and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing Cass put Damian on the floor a few more times.   So casual.


She still can't read at all as far as we know. In regards to Bruce not spending time with her, that's mostly correct and it was something he was called out on at the start of the current arc. At this point she's living at the manor and she's seemingly getting sent to school with Duke.

----------


## Digifiend

How the hell is she supposed to go to public school if she can't read? She's a teenager, not a kindergartener.

----------


## Assam

> How the hell is she supposed to go to public school if she can't read? She's a teenager, not a kindergartener.


Schools have special ed programs. A private school like Gotham Academy, especially if Bruce Wayne invested money into it, would be likely to have a damn good one.

----------


## godisawesome

> Schools have special ed programs. A private school like Gotham Academy, especially if Bruce Wayne invested money into it, would be likely to have a damn good one.


It's also generally true that Cass has always been portrayed as being able to understand whatever she's told, even if she struggles to respond verbally herself. As an educator, she wouldn't be that far off from a student with dyslexia, and her current form in the comics (and her latter day portrayal before Flashpoint) is still usually able to make herself understood, so while she'd need help with language arts, her work ethic and displayed intelligence probably mean she'd be fine in the other three core classes (I'm not sure exactly how her particular disability would impact low level symbol reading regarding numbers, but she doesn't seem to suffer from outright Dyscalculia). 

And we've seen she's got a talent for the arts, especially in regards to theater and dancing. Current Cass is apparently enough of a natural mimic to memorize entire passages of Shakespeare from listening, which while perhaps over the top, could be the result of her brain compensating for a lack of regualr language skills with increased memory capacity (as in her physical capabilities) but applied to non-combat contexts.

I'm teaching an ESL student with a learning disability, and her work ethic and eagerness to learn have got her performing equal to my other students in my history class. Cass can't be *that* far behind.

----------


## Assam

> It's also generally true that Cass has always been portrayed as being able to understand whatever she's told, even if she struggles to respond verbally herself. As an educator, she wouldn't be that far off from a student with dyslexia, and her current form in the comics (and her latter day portrayal before Flashpoint) is still usually able to make herself understood, so while she'd need help with language arts, her work ethic and displayed intelligence probably mean she'd be fine in the other three core classes (I'm not sure exactly how her particular disability would impact low level symbol reading regarding numbers, but she doesn't seem to suffer from outright Dyscalculia). 
> 
> And we've seen she's got a talent for the arts, especially in regards to theater and dancing. Current Cass is apparently enough of a natural mimic to memorize entire passages of Shakespeare from listening, which while perhaps over the top, could be the result of her brain compensating for a lack of regualr language skills with increased memory capacity (as in her physical capabilities) but applied to non-combat contexts.
> 
> I'm teaching an ESL student with a learning disability, and her work ethic and eagerness to learn have got her performing equal to my other students in my history class. Cass can't be *that* far behind.


All very good points. Given all of that, with the proper support, social issues aside, her biggest problem with school would likely just be having to sit through the classes which didn't interest her at all. 

Also, my utmost kudos to you dude. You are doing amazing and highly under valued work.

----------


## RedBird

Batdad and Batdaughter
ninalinovna

----------


## Frontier

> Batdad and Batdaughter
> ninalinovna


Bruce kind of looks like Dick here...

----------


## adrikito

> batdad and batdaughter
> ninalinovna


good image.

----------


## The Dying Detective

> Batdad and Batdaughter
> ninalinovna


You know if it wasn't for that title underneath it I would have thought the man in the picture was Conner Kent.

----------


## AlvinDraper

epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter

----------


## adrikito

I am a bat.

detective comics 981 batman cassandra cain orphan batgirl.jpg

----------


## Assam

> I am a bat.
> 
> detective comics 981 batman cassandra cain orphan batgirl.jpg


Great moment...but all the more reason I'm profoundly disappointed by her still being called 'Orphan' in the 'Tec #987 solicit. I was so sure it was gone.  :Frown:

----------


## millernumber1

> Great moment...but all the more reason I'm profoundly disappointed by her still being called 'Orphan' in the 'Tec #987 solicit. I was so sure it was gone.


Yeah, it's a bummer. My guess is that Tynion tried, but editorial slammed its foot down pretty hard after letting him do 980.

----------


## JasonTodd428

Could be but then again it could also be that the solicit is being intentionally misleading. I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet.

----------


## Blight

> Could be but then again it could also be that the solicit is being intentionally misleading. I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet.


I agree. I guess we shall see tomorrow and when Hill's arc starts.

----------


## Frontier

> epitomime on Tumblr/Twitter


Awesome. If only she was sporting something like this in the comics now  :Cool: .

----------


## Digifiend

> Could be but then again it could also be that the solicit is being intentionally misleading. I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet.


Especially with how today's issue of Tec ended - she's now working with Barbara! Who August solicits say is about to have her implant that lets her walk "fried". In other words, she'll be back in the wheelchair. I do wonder then, is Batgirl's mantle about to be passed on again?

----------


## Assam

> Especially with how today's issue of Tec ended - she's now working with Barbara! Who August solicits say is about to have her implant that lets her walk "fried". In other words, she'll be back in the wheelchair. I do wonder then, is Batgirl's mantle about to be passed on again?


I'm not even getting my hopes up that she'll _appear_ in Batgirl, but if she does, I suspect at most she'll get to be Batgirl for an arc before Babs is up and running again, takes back the mantle and Cass uses the experience as a stepping stone to her true new Bat identity.

----------


## Assam

https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...98865363300352

So, uh...the new Batgirl writer is a Cass cosplayer. 

https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...91095183130625

I can't believe it but...all the pieces are coming together!  :Big Grin:

----------


## Frontier

> https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...98865363300352
> 
> So, uh...the new Batgirl writer is a Cass cosplayer. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/MairghreadScott/...91095183130625
> 
> I can't believe it but...all the pieces are coming together!


That's cool. Admittedly other then her Transformers work and Scott writing for _Marvel Rising_ I wasn't quite sure where her comic passions lie  :Smile: .

----------


## Assam

Thank you Imaginext for finally giving Cass some new merch.  :Smile: 

cass black bat.jpg

----------


## Frontier

> Thank you Imaginext for finally giving Cass some new merch. 
> 
> cass black bat.jpg


And twin katana Batman  :Stick Out Tongue: ?

----------


## millernumber1

> Thank you Imaginext for finally giving Cass some new merch. 
> 
> cass black bat.jpg


What set is this? It looks like Batwing plus Black Bat?

----------


## Assam

> What set is this? It looks like Batwing plus Black Bat?


The name on their website is 'Black Bat & Ninja Batman'.

----------


## millernumber1

> The name on their website is 'Black Bat & Ninja Batman'.


Cool, thanks!

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

Really a bummer they just ditched her inability to read just like that. That was one of Cass' more endearing quirks pre-Beechen.

----------


## Assam

> Really a bummer they just ditched her inability to read just like that. That was one of Cass' more endearing quirks pre-Beechen.


I'm hoping that bit of dialogue about her having a handle on the written word was just poorly worded. From what we've actually seen, she still can't read or write and her being able to recite parts from the Tempest just comes down to her listening to a recording.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> I'm hoping that bit of dialogue about her having a handle on the written word was just poorly worded. From what we've actually seen, she still can't read or write and her being able to recite parts from the Tempest just comes down to her listening to a recording.


Someone should probably ask Bryan Hill how he's going to handle it when he takes over for those five issues (+The Outsiders book, hopefully).

----------


## dsjericho

> Really a bummer they just ditched her inability to read just like that. That was one of Cass' more endearing quirks pre-Beechen.


I agree.  To me, it's right up there with her not being chatty/quippy; the spoken and written word should be a struggle for her.

----------


## adrikito

> Great moment...but all the more reason I'm profoundly disappointed by her still being called 'Orphan' in the 'Tec #987 solicit. I was so sure it was gone.


I saw the solicitations.. Seems that we should wait for Cass own saga(in the outsiders) for change the name..

----------


## Blight

> Thank you Imaginext for finally giving Cass some new merch. 
> 
> Attachment 66246


Where did you learn that from and when is it coming out?

----------


## Assam

> Where did you learn that from and when is it coming out?


Initially saw it on Instagram. Then went to Walmart's site. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Imaginext...tman/612383694

There doesn't seem to be a release date yet.

----------


## Blight

> Initially saw it on Instagram. Then went to Walmart's site. 
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Imaginext...tman/612383694
> 
> There doesn't seem to be a release date yet.


I can't seem to find it on Instagram. Curious though it's labeled "sold out" on walmart's site.

----------


## Assam

So we've now had two separate books reference the possibility of Cass starting school, making me think this really is the direction DC is going. And having just found this, I now really want to see something like this happen: 

cass gotham academy.jpg

by @onsideseven on Twitter. 

Plus, you know, maybe meeting Katherine.

----------


## millernumber1

> So we've now had two separate books reference the possibility of Cass starting school, making me think this really is the direction DC is going. And having just found this, I now really want to see something like this happen: 
> 
> cass gotham academy.jpg
> 
> by @onsideseven on Twitter. 
> 
> Plus, you know, maybe meeting Katherine.


I would love to see Cass (and Damian!) interacting in school with the Gotham Academy kids! And Katherine Karlo would be ACES!

----------


## Jackalope89

> I would love to see Cass (and Damian!) interacting in school with the Gotham Academy kids! And Katherine Karlo would be ACES!


Except Damian is supposed to be going to school with Jon Kent. Though with Bendis scrapping Super Sons as canon going forward (still aggravated by it), hard to say what Damian is doing for school.

----------


## millernumber1

> Except Damian is supposed to be going to school with Jon Kent. Though with Bendis scrapping Super Sons as canon going forward (still aggravated by it), hard to say what Damian is doing for school.


Well, Damian has gone undercover at Gotham Academy before, so I was more thinking that he might do that and bump into Cass if she were going there.

Mostly, I would just love to see Damian and Cass interact more, and see the Gotham Academy kids (especially Maps and Katherine!) anywhere!

----------


## Frontier

> So we've now had two separate books reference the possibility of Cass starting school, making me think this really is the direction DC is going. And having just found this, I now really want to see something like this happen: 
> 
> cass gotham academy.jpg
> 
> by @onsideseven on Twitter. 
> 
> Plus, you know, maybe meeting Katherine.


If Gotham Academy was still running around the time Gotham Acadmey was still in full force (was it still going on in Rebirth? I don't think so), I think they probably would have fit Cass in, but I'm not sure I see it happening now unless there's a writer who's interested in bringing it back.

----------


## millernumber1

> If Gotham Academy was still running around the time Gotham Acadmey was still in full force (was it still going on in Rebirth? I don't think so), I think they probably would have fit Cass in, but I'm not sure I see it happening now unless there's a writer who's interested in bringing it back.


1) Gotham Academy: Second Semester was part of the second wave of Rebirth launches.

2) Fletcher and Kesel do want to bring it back, but if I understand correctly, more as OGN or something for the Scholastic market rather than flopppies, so it's an open question whether it'd be in-continuity.

----------


## Frontier

> 2) Fletcher and Kesel do want to bring it back, but if I understand correctly, more as OGN or something for the Scholastic market rather than flopppies, so it's an open question whether it'd be in-continuity.


I could definitely see it being revived as a DC Zoom/Ink book.

----------


## millernumber1

> I could definitely see it being revived as a DC Zoom/Ink book.


Ooooh, yes. That would be pretty great as a venue. I dunno why I didn't think about that.

----------


## Assam

An official DC blog post about Cass and Steph as bats and their ship. 

https://twitter.com/rustypolished/st...85087320801280

A lot of fun reactions to this on Tumblr and Twitter.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Frontier

> An official DC blog post about Cass and Steph as bats and their ship. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/rustypolished/st...85087320801280
> 
> A lot of fun reactions to this on Tumblr and Twitter.


That's really cool to see DC release that kind of article on their site, especially since it goes into so much Pre-Flashpoint continuity  :Smile: .

Not surprised they didn't bring in the whole "Cass knocking Steph out" moment  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## The Dying Detective

This is going to get me some flake and maybe an online assault or firebombed if anyone here lived close enough to my house. But out of all of Cassandra Cain's would be suitors I think Tai D'arshan had the most potential to be an interesting romance. Sure it was not as well executed as one would have liked it to be and his general character could have been more likable though I did like the devil may care vibe he exudes, the way his attraction was written was not well thought out, and the fact he was a terrorist did not do him many favours but I think if Horrocks had actually thought things through more it would have been a better heck I would not mind if he returned if only as a better character than last time. In fact give him to me and I can at least try and whip something up worth talking about.

----------


## frostedemma

I've never wanted cass illiteracy to be permanent because it's a painfully reminder for both readers & cass of the abuse she endured with cain and it also never seemed plausible to me that she'd be under bab's mentorship/wing and never learn how to read or write. That being said with I still want an arc that explores how she learns to read and write and she might not become a literary intellectual or a chatterbox but at least she'd have overcome a child trauma but with the way rebirth is treating her so far i doubt i'd ever get that lol

----------


## Assam

> I've never wanted cass illiteracy to be permanent because it's a painfully reminder for both readers & cass of the abuse she endured with cain and it also never seemed plausible to me that she'd be under bab's mentorship/wing and never learn how to read or write. That being said with I still want an arc that explores how she learns to read and write and she might not become a literary intellectual or a chatterbox but at least she'd have overcome a child trauma but with the way rebirth is treating her so far i doubt i'd ever get that lol


I don't think anyone is saying she should be illiterate permanently. It's just that as you say, we should get to see her learning and struggling with reading and writing. Ideally we'd get scenes from that story as powerful as the "It was" scene. I'd also like to see Babs enlist Guy Gardner for help, both because putting those three personalities together is a comedic goldmine and because I'd like to see Guy's history as a special ed teacher restored to canon.

----------


## dsjericho

I don't want her illiteracy to be permanent, either, but (to me) she should be sort of a non-native speaker/reader.  Her 'accent' might be the hesitations and pauses or different wording or inflections in sentences.  Her 'linguistic' base is so different from structured language, what's more interesting to me is not so much her learning to read/speak with some proficiency, but with how her 'natural' way of thinking/understanding affects new modes of communication she's learning.

As far as the trauma, I'm interested in how we (humans) live with trauma, how we adapt after it has changed us, especially from a young age.  I don't know how much interest they'll have in her psychological state but (like Batman) her trauma will always be a part of her.  Or should be.  I just hope they care enough to continue to show how she lives with it, deals with it (or doesn't), the repercussions, and the ways she uses it to help others.


eta:  Oh - she should also be kicking butt during whatever else is going on with her.  Can't forget that.

----------


## Assam

> but (to me) she should be sort of a non-native speaker/reader.  Her 'accent' might be the hesitations and pauses or different wording or inflections in sentences.  Her 'linguistic' base is so different from structured language, what's more interesting to me is not so much her learning to read/speak with some proficiency, but with how her 'natural' way of thinking/understanding affects new modes of communication she's learning.


Agreed. 




> As far as the trauma, I'm interested in how we (humans) live with trauma, how we adapt after it has changed us, especially from a young age.  I don't know how much interest they'll have in her psychological state but (like Batman) her trauma will always be a part of her.  Or should be.  I just hope they care enough to continue to show how she lives with it, deals with it (or doesn't), the repercussions, and the ways she uses it to help others.


Hill might have you covered. 

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...37719956123648

----------


## dsjericho

> Hill might have you covered. 
> 
> https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...37719956123648


I forgot he posted that; thank you for the reminder.

----------


## Assam

Some recent Psu art 

Darth Cass 

red sun.jpg

and based off the most recent 'Tec issue 

cass barbara.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

If anyone's following Bryan Hill on twitter, you got a MASSIVE dose of Cass nerdery today, and especially in the last hour, where he and I and a couple of other massive Cass fans/nerds really got into whether she can dodge bullets. It is great!

----------


## Assam

> If anyone's following Bryan Hill on twitter, you got a MASSIVE dose of Cass nerdery today, and especially in the last hour, where he and I and a couple of other massive Cass fans/nerds really got into whether she can dodge bullets. It is great!


Yeah, I've been following it all and it is amazing. I've said it before but between his frequently expressed love for Cass (especially on days like today), his fun and chill attitude and the wealth of knowledge he has to share, he's quickly become one of my favorite people online. The only way I could be more excited for what he has to offer would be if it were announced he was getting to do the 12 issue Cass maxi he's brought up before. 

Also, he was having people send him Cass fan art all day and a really nice new piece by @Kolshio on Twitter popped up there: The Orphan becoming a Bat. 

kolshio.jpg

----------


## millernumber1

> Yeah, I've been following it all and it is amazing. I've said it before but between his frequently expressed love for Cass (especially on days like today), his fun and chill attitude and the wealth of knowledge he has to share, he's quickly become one of my favorite people online. The only way I could be more excited for what he has to offer would be if it were announced he was getting to do the 12 issue Cass maxi he's brought up before. 
> 
> Also, he was having people send him Cass fan art all day and a really nice new piece by @Kolshio on Twitter popped up there: The Orphan becoming a Bat. 
> 
> kolshio.jpg


I love it!

I'm just worried that we're all distracting him from important career things. But it's impossible to resist asking him questions when he has such amazing answers!

----------


## Frontier

> Yeah, I've been following it all and it is amazing. I've said it before but between his frequently expressed love for Cass (especially on days like today), his fun and chill attitude and the wealth of knowledge he has to share, he's quickly become one of my favorite people online. The only way I could be more excited for what he has to offer would be if it were announced he was getting to do the 12 issue Cass maxi he's brought up before. 
> 
> Also, he was having people send him Cass fan art all day and a really nice new piece by @Kolshio on Twitter popped up there: The Orphan becoming a Bat. 
> 
> kolshio.jpg


Huh, those additions to the Oprhan look actually work extremely well  :Cool: .

----------


## Assam

Bryan Hill just keeps giving me reasons to love him as he's confirmed that Cass is a metalhead. 

metalhead cass.jpg

----------


## Assam

The 984 cover was revealed

984 cover.jpg

Still in an unchanged Orphan suit, although her shoulder pads are now as big as her head, but I'm still holding out hope that by the end of this year, be it here or in Batgirl, this costume and name will finally die.

----------


## Caivu

> Bryan Hill just keeps giving me reasons to love him as he's confirmed that Cass is a metalhead. 
> 
> metalhead cass.jpg


Now there's at least three such confirmed Batfamily members.

----------


## millernumber1

> The 984 cover was revealed
> 
> Attachment 66893
> 
> Still in an unchanged Orphan suit, although her shoulder pads are now as big as her head, but I'm still holding out hope that by the end of this year, be it here or in Batgirl, this costume and name will finally die.


Niiiice! I hope that the reference to Cass's series is super awesome!

----------


## Frontier

> The 984 cover was revealed
> 
> Attachment 66893
> 
> Still in an unchanged Orphan suit, although her shoulder pads are now as big as her head, but I'm still holding out hope that by the end of this year, be it here or in Batgirl, this costume and name will finally die.


Yeah, I'm really hoping we see the entire Orphan identity, the name and the costume, done away with in the near future.

----------


## Assam

http://gailsimone.tumblr.com/post/17...orite-batgirls

Always nice to see Gail's love for Cass, but that aside, has anyone else noticed that a decent amount of people seem to think that she (and Dixon) wrote full runs for Cass? It's weird. Not sure if there are more of them or more people who,almost three years later, still haven't heard that Cass is back in the DCU.

----------


## Frontier

> http://gailsimone.tumblr.com/post/17...orite-batgirls
> 
> Always nice to see Gail's love for Cass, but that aside, has anyone else noticed that a decent amount of people seem to think that she (and Dixon) wrote full runs for Cass? It's weird. Not sure if there are more of them or more people who,almost three years later, still haven't heard that Cass is back in the DCU.


I never thought that she wrote a Cass run, but I remembered reading about her efforts to get Cass into _Birds of Prey._

----------


## Blight

> http://gailsimone.tumblr.com/post/17...orite-batgirls
> 
> Always nice to see Gail's love for Cass, but that aside, has anyone else noticed that a decent amount of people seem to think that she (and Dixon) wrote full runs for Cass? It's weird. Not sure if there are more of them or more people who,almost three years later, still haven't heard that Cass is back in the DCU.


Dixon though did write full runs of Cassandra though. He wrote the fill-ins to her original ongoing (the first Steph team-up, the "Legion of Doom" arc that had Connor Hawke team up with Cass, Steph, and Tim) and wrote her in Batman & the Outsiders. So I can get that with Dixon. Simone? Just did a few odd issues.

----------


## Assam

> Dixon though did write full runs of Cassandra though. He wrote the fill-ins to her original ongoing (the first Steph team-up, the "Legion of Doom" arc that had Connor Hawke team up with Cass, Steph, and Tim) and wrote her in Batman & the Outsiders. So I can get that with Dixon. Simone? Just did a few odd issues.


I don't count fill-ins as a run and I have a hard time imagining it's the BatO run people are referring  to when they praise Dixon in this regard, but fair enough. Simone is definitely the weirder one to refer to as she only wrote Cass twice in BoP and has freely admitted she done goofed on how she wrote her because of the poor choice of material DC gave her to research her at the time.

----------


## Blight

> I don't count fill-ins as a run and I have a hard time imagining it's the BatO run people are referring  to when they praise Dixon in this regard, but fair enough. Simone is definitely the weirder one to refer to as she only wrote Cass twice in BoP and has freely admitted she done goofed on how she wrote her because of the poor choice of material DC gave her to research her at the time.


Exactly on Simone. It's ironic she considered herself at a time the worst writer to handle Cassandra. That kind of ranking sure changed.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Assam

> Exactly on Simone. It's ironic she considered herself at a time the worst writer to handle Cassandra. That kind of ranking sure changed.


Yeeeeeeeeeah. 

Although I forgot that Simone also wrote her in the Future's End one-shot and did a pretty good job there. Even if my favorite thing from that isn't related to Cass's characterization, but rather the meta-interpretation of Babs' message to her. 

Also, speaking of rankings, now that his run is done, where would you rank Tynion as a Cass writer? Looking at the run as a whole and her arc throughout, he definitely told the best Cass-story since her solo book and for a younger re-interpretation, RebirthCass ended up being a great character, but I'm pretty sure he didn't beat out Horrocks or Gabrych for me (No one's ever gonna top Puckett) _Maybe_ he beats out Higgens/Snyder just because he got to spend so much more time writing her.

----------


## Blight

> Yeeeeeeeeeah. 
> 
> Although I forgot that Simone also wrote her in the Future's End one-shot and did a pretty good job there. Even if my favorite thing from that isn't related to Cass's characterization, but rather the meta-interpretation of Babs' message to her. 
> 
> Also, speaking of rankings, now that his run is done, where would you rank Tynion as a Cass writer? Looking at the run as a whole and her arc throughout, he definitely told the best Cass-story since her solo book and for a younger re-interpretation, RebirthCass ended up being a great character, but I'm pretty sure he didn't beat out Horrocks or Gabrych for me (No one's ever gonna top Puckett) _Maybe_ he beats out Higgens/Snyder just because he got to spend so much more time writing her.


Good point on the Future's End one-shot. I actually enjoyed it enough to buy the script from Gail when she was at a convention. I'd put him above Gabrych for me (he did have some problems in the later half of his run, so did Horrocks, but he still told a good story. Gabrych's always felt rushed plus Zero was a bad love interest).  Basically, I'd rank Tynion like #4 on Cassandra writers with Puckett being #1, #2 Horrocks. #3 Dixon. Ironcally for me he knocked off Joe Kelly down a peg.

----------


## Assam

> I'd put him above Gabrych for me (he did have some problems in the later half of his run, so did Horrocks, but he still told a good story. Gabrych's always felt rushed plus Zero was a bad love interest).


Hmmm. I also prefer Horrocks overall. Like you said, he told a good story (with a brilliant finale) despite the weak beginning and once his story was told, he managed to tell a couple more great short stories before the editorial mandates and War Games came down to ruin the end of his run and drive him away from the Big 2. While I'm very much not a fan of the second half of Gabrych's run (and he can't_ fully_ be blamed for it) I love the first half, including the voice he gave Cass and direction he took her in. Plus, while Zero may be trash, the awesomeness of Brenda makes up for him. 




> Basically, I'd rank Tynion like #4 on Cassandra writers with Puckett being #1, #2 Horrocks. #3 Dixon. Ironcally for me he knocked off Joe Kelly down a peg.


Dixon's fill-ins were great (Never seen a bad word about #20 and I like the Connor/Tim/Steph team-up more than most), but while his Outsiders run had some good ideas, I wasn't too much of a fan of the execution. Plus...the orange juice scene. 

Kelly's time with her was just weird.  :Stick Out Tongue:  From a fantastic Superboy team-up to the _highly_ problematic Justice League Elite (I still like it, but...dang are there a lot of problems) and the EvilCass issue speaks for itself. 

Surprised you'd put Higgens/Snyder at (at best) #6. Maybe I'm just won over by the fact that they gave classic Cass a happy ending and my reading of her in the book being that after everything she went through in her own book and all the bulls**t since, this was a Cass who'd reached the next stage of her development, as while Black Bat may not have been treated like an upgrade, she definitely underwent the graduation maturation.

----------


## scary harpy

Question:

Do you want a return of Cass's original black on black Batgirl costume? 

I remember that the only color on it was the yellow utility belt and the yellow outline of the black bat insignia. Do you feel that is a good look for today?

----------


## millernumber1

> Question:
> 
> Do you want a return of Cass's original black on black Batgirl costume? 
> 
> I remember that the only color on it was the yellow utility belt and the yellow outline of the black bat insignia. Do you feel that is a good look for today?


No. However, I freely admit that I'm not a typical Cass fan. I think a lot of Cass fans want it back. Possibly because it was so beautifully drawn by Marcus To, Trevor McCarthy, and Dustin Nguyen, legitimately some of my favorite artists, I really like her Black Bat costume (except for the weird bandages on the wrists).

I think if you had the black bodysuit and the yellow outlined bat, it would be pretty cool. But I would like to see more of Cass's face.

----------


## Frontier

I'd take her old Batgirl look or the Black Bat costume over the Orphan design. 

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but anything with a cape  :Stick Out Tongue: .

----------


## billee0918

Id love to see a new codename and design for Cassandra.
Orphan is so so for me and I never liked Black Bat (or the costume for it).
Bianfu is Chinese for bat, wonder if that could work?

My dream is the rumored Batgirls team, with Barbara, Cassandra and Stephanie all sharing the role....I would DIE from excitement.

----------


## The Whovian

> I’d love to see a new codename and design for Cassandra.
> Orphan is so so for me and I never liked Black Bat (or the costume for it).
> Bianfu is Chinese for bat, wonder if that could work?
> 
> My dream is the rumored “Batgirls” team, with Barbara, Cassandra and Stephanie all sharing the role....I would DIE from excitement.


DC won't do it but I would love to see Babs go back to being Oracle, Cass as Batgirl and give Steph a cool new codename and costume.

----------


## scary harpy

> DC won't do it but I would love to see Babs go back to being Oracle, Cass as Batgirl and give *Steph a cool new codename and costume*.


How about Steph's name being Spoiler and she wears her purple Batgirl costume?

They are both distinctly hers.

----------


## millernumber1

> How about Steph's name being Spoiler and she wears her purple Batgirl costume?
> 
> They are both distinctly hers.


I think that is pretty close to her current look,without the Bat or gold highlights or cowl. I think a new look wouldn't be bad, but I think Cass needs a new hat and a Bat more.  :Smile:

----------


## Blight

I'd rather all three be Batgirls though Stephanie and Barbara to alternate between their other identities of Oracle and Spoiler. I'm still kind of surprised given Scott is a fan of the character, that Cassandra hasn't been added to the supporting cast. I wonder if anyone's asked her if Barbara will continue tutoring Cassandra in the ongoing? Well, I guess there's always SDCC or NYCC for someone to ask.

----------


## millernumber1

> I'd rather all three be Batgirls though Stephanie and Barbara to alternate between their other identities of Oracle and Spoiler. I'm still kind of surprised given Scott is a fan of the character, that Cassandra hasn't been added to the supporting cast. I wonder if anyone's asked her if Barbara will continue tutoring Cassandra in the ongoing? Well, I guess there's always SDCC or NYCC for someone to ask.


I pretty much agree - hadn't thought about having Babs and Steph alternate/rotate. That's a cool idea.

I know some Cass fans believed it was pretty much dead cert that Cass would be added - and I will be absolutely thrilled if she does guest or become a regular in Batgirl - but I think it seems a bit unlikely, given that Hill is using her at the same time as Scott, and the editors seem to be pretty compartmentalized (though the recent Tynion interview made me think that might have been Tynion's attitude as well - though he had no problem with them in the Birds of Prey Manslaughter arc or the Red Hood guest appearance by the whole team.

This being said: I don't think Cass is NOT going to appear. I just think that if she is, DC is playing a pretty weird game. Have we ever had a replacement arc where they've never revealed the main character on the cover or in solicit text?

----------


## Frontier

> I pretty much agree - hadn't thought about having Babs and Steph alternate/rotate. That's a cool idea.
> 
> I know some Cass fans believed it was pretty much dead cert that Cass would be added - and I will be absolutely thrilled if she does guest or become a regular in Batgirl - but I think it seems a bit unlikely, given that Hill is using her at the same time as Scott, *and the editors seem to be pretty compartmentalized* (though the recent Tynion interview made me think that might have been Tynion's attitude as well - though he had no problem with them in the Birds of Prey Manslaughter arc or the Red Hood guest appearance by the whole team.
> 
> This being said: I don't think Cass is NOT going to appear. I just think that if she is, DC is playing a pretty weird game. Have we ever had a replacement arc where they've never revealed the main character on the cover or in solicit text?


I guess that would explain why the titles themselves can feel so compartmentalized. 

But from what I've read I'm sure Scott would jump at the chance to include/write Cass if possible.

----------


## millernumber1

> I guess that would explain why the titles themselves can feel so compartmentalized. 
> 
> But from what I've read I'm sure Scott would jump at the chance to include/write Cass if possible.


I hope so!

----------


## Frontier

> I hope so!


Same here  :Smile: .

----------


## Sardorim

Hmmm... With Tim gone from Detective Comics, and Steph to, it seems that Cassandra is the main star when the light isn't on batman.

Though I am not too happy that they didn't touch on too much on Cass learning she was a Batgirl in the pre 52 Universe.

----------


## juffuj5

> Hmmm... With Tim gone from Detective Comics, and Steph to, it seems that Cassandra is the main star when the light isn't on batman.
> 
> Though I am not too happy that they didn't touch on too much on Cass learning she was a Batgirl in the pre 52 Universe.


Bryan Hill said on twitter that he will touch on that a bit

----------


## millernumber1

> Bryan Hill said on twitter that he will touch on that a bit


Really? Where did you see that! Must see!

Oh, I think I found it:

"A bit, but the stakes are so high that there's not a lot of time for fallout. First, they have to stop this madman from hurting any more people."

https://twitter.com/bryanedwardhill/...21636225400832

----------


## El_Gato

According to Grace, Cassandra Cain will feature in the upcoming Birds of Prey film. We'll likely get some confirmation tomorrow, as that's the big DC news that was being teased (BOP line-up for the movie).

Edit: Too bad Assam isn't around :/

----------


## millernumber1

> According to Grace, Cassandra Cain will feature in the upcoming Birds of Prey film. We'll likely get some confirmation tomorrow, as that's the big DC news that was being teased (BOP line-up for the movie).
> 
> Edit: Too bad Assam isn't around :/


Who is Grace?

----------


## Armor of God

Film critic but she cant really be trusted in these matters.

----------


## millernumber1

> Film critic but she cant really be trusted in these matters.


You talking about Grace Randolph?

----------


## El_Gato

> You talking about Grace Randolph?


Yeah. We should find out tomorrow if her scoop is legit. I hope so because Cass is awesome!

----------


## The Whovian

> According to Grace, Cassandra Cain will feature in the upcoming Birds of Prey film. We'll likely get some confirmation tomorrow, as that's the big DC news that was being teased (BOP line-up for the movie).
> 
> Edit: Too bad Assam isn't around :/


Awesome news!!

----------


## Cmbmool

> According to Grace, Cassandra Cain will feature in the upcoming Birds of Prey film. We'll likely get some confirmation tomorrow, as that's the big DC news that was being teased (BOP line-up for the movie).
> 
> Edit: Too bad Assam isn't around :/


FINALLY Cass is getting the moment she deserves in the spotlight.

----------


## millernumber1

> FINALLY Cass is getting the moment she deserves in the spotlight.


Like the on/off Batman and Batgirl films, I am still in the hopeful but skeptical stage, but this is a great step and cast!

----------


## Korath

Plenty of Cass art here : https://twitter.com/psuedofolio/stat...53882192502786

----------


## millernumber1

> Plenty of Cass art here : https://twitter.com/psuedofolio/stat...53882192502786


Psueds is one of the best Cass artists!

----------


## Frontier

Cass being in the Birds of Prey movie is pretty awesome. I hope she's used well there and isn't overshadowed by Harley Quinn (in-fact, she should totally overshadow Quinn)  :Smile: .

I wonder if the main villain will be Shiva? 



> Plenty of Cass art here : https://twitter.com/psuedofolio/stat...53882192502786


I feel like I've seen his art before, but he draws a stunning Cass  :Big Grin: .

----------


## dietrich

If the set up for this movie is true then DC is now actively working hard to tank itself.

----------


## millernumber1

> If the set up for this movie is true then DC is now actively working hard to tank itself.


Tank itself?

----------


## Confuzzled

That plot sounds cool too but The Wrap's Umberto Gonzalez claims Grace Randolph is wrong on several counts including the film featuring David Cain, Shiva and Katana. He says Renee Montoya is in the film instead and the baddie is a Batman villain who hasn't appeared on screen before (Black Mask?).

Cassandra's confirmed for sure though.  :Smile:

----------


## RedBird

Oh my god, thats awesome!  :Big Grin: 
I still don't wanna get my hopes up too much, kinda wanna wait for more info but holy moly, Cass in a film. Finally! Yes please!

----------


## Confuzzled

Kind of crazy to think that Cass will beat Jason, Damian, Tim, Steph, Kate and even a proper version of Barbara "Gordon" to the big screen. Who would've predicted?

----------


## dietrich

So much for those who say DC hates Cass. Sometimes a company is just waiting for the right project.

----------


## dietrich

> Tank itself?


Tank Itself.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So much for those who say DC hates Cass. Sometimes a company is just waiting for the right project.


I wouldn't say "hate" but it's entirely possible the DC Comics side doesn't have much use for her and only puts in her books because there is a demand. Meanwhile, the Birds of Prey director is of Chinese origin and she may have gravitated towards Cassandra for obvious reasons.

----------


## yohyoi

> Kind of crazy to think that Cass will beat Jason, Damian, Tim, Steph, Kate and even a proper version of Barbara "Gordon" to the big screen. Who would've predicted?


The closing thing we have of a proper Barbara Gordon is Lego Batman. Where she was just a replacement for her father and a comedic non-reciprocating love interest for Batman. Replacing her with any capable cop who wants to be a superhero doesn't have an effect to the movie. Even if Cass is 50% of her comic self, she would have a more faithful representation than any Barbara. And let's not mention Barbara Wilson.

----------


## dietrich

> I wouldn't say "hate" but it's entirely possible the DC Comics side doesn't have much use for her and only puts in her books because there is a demand. Meanwhile, the Birds of Prey director is of Chinese origin and she may have gravitated towards Cassandra for obvious reasons.


So Racism is the reason Cass is getting her big break ? That's sad and taints it. I thought Robbie picked because she liked the character and believed in her not the director picked her because Asian.

I hope you're wrong and I'm right.

My main concern's though are 
Harley is now the leader  of the BOP
Cass isn't Batgirl instead they are trying to get some of that X - 23 money
Babsgirl has a movie coming up
Oracle isn't a part of the BOP. 

It all sounds like a Stink-bomb about to explode.

I think DC has use for all character who benefit their bottom line the most. I agree that there's no such thing as a company hating or' having it out' for certain characters. I hope this development puts paid to that ludicrous and frankly deranged way of thinking..

----------


## Aahz

Not sure how accurate the scoop is, but having Shiva, Cass and Katana on the team seems a little redundant.

----------


## adrikito

I heard about the Birds of Prey film. Congratulations Cass.

----------


## millernumber1

> So Racism is the reason Cass is getting her big break ? That's sad and taints it. I thought Robbie picked because she liked the character and believed in her not the director picked her because Asian.
> 
> I hope you're wrong and I'm right.
> 
> My main concern's though are 
> Harley is now the leader  of the BOP
> Cass isn't Batgirl instead they are trying to get some of that X - 23 money
> Babsgirl has a movie coming up
> Oracle isn't a part of the BOP. 
> ...


Where are you seeing that Harley's the leader? Or that Cass isn't Batgirl? I feel like there's WAY too many unexamined assumptions here without real source.

I will continue to be ludicrous and frankly deranged, then, because I think editorial definitely has made specific choices that harm several characters.

----------


## dietrich

> Where are you seeing that Harley's the leader? Or that Cass isn't Batgirl? I feel like there's WAY too many unexamined assumptions here without real source.
> 
> I will continue to be ludicrous and frankly deranged, then, because I think editorial definitely has made specific choices that harm several characters.



If you feel there are WAY too many assumptions here without real source then you should go ahead and not discuss the subject at all since all these unexamined assumptions come from the the same source telling us Cass is in a BOP movie with Harley.

Specific choices that harm some characters doesn't mean that they hate some characters. It simply means that some characters have been hurt by their choices.

----------


## millernumber1

> If you feel there are WAY too many assumptions here without real source then you should go ahead and not discuss the subject at all since all these unexamined assumptions come from the the same source telling us Cass is in a BOP movie with Harley.
> 
> Specific choices that harm some characters doesn't mean that they hate some characters. It simply means that some characters have been hurt by their choices.


I am asking BECAUSE I read the article. What quotes am I missing? When you said that, I went back and REREAD the article, and I don't see it. If you can show me what I'm missing (as I asked previously, and you ignored me), I'd be grateful.

----------


## Confuzzled

> So Racism is the reason Cass is getting her big break ? That's sad and taints it.


Underrepresented Chinese-American woman director picks an underrated and underutilized Chinese-American female character.

You: "THIS IS SO RACIST AND SAD!!"

----------


## dietrich

> Underrepresented Chinese-American woman director picks an underrated and underutilized Chinese-American female character.
> 
> You: "THIS IS SO RACIST AND SAD!!"


I'm not English so my choice of words might be wrong. How do you say Affirmative Action? Where selection is based on quota not just merit. Like the Americans do to try to counter the effects of institutionalised Racism and decades of Slavery. 

That's the right term yes? And it is sad.

----------


## dietrich

> I am asking BECAUSE I read the article. What quotes am I missing? When you said that, I went back and REREAD the article, and I don't see it. If you can show me what I'm missing (as I asked previously, and you ignored me), I'd be grateful.


I don't know what article you are referring to I only saw the Grace's video [posted video] which is what you were replying to.

----------


## millernumber1

> I don't know what article you are referring to I only saw the Grace's video [posted video] which is what you were replying to.


Thanks for clarifying. (Also, for some reason, the first time I responded to your post, the video wasn't showing up in my browser, so I thought there wasn't anything to which you were referring. My apologies.) This is the article to which I was referring: https://www.middletownpress.com/ente...m-13079452.php

I like Grace, but she seems to be working from speculation. Additionally, given how many times the Batman and Batgirl films have been cancelled, uncancelled, rebooted, what have you, I'm deeply skeptical of any leaks, since those are just as likely to be part of cancelled versions.

Regarding the affirmative action point - I'm pretty opposed to affirmative action today (at least in education), since I think most students are able to compete and achieve proportionate to their population size. However, I don't think that's what's happening here. Helena Bertinelli is Italian. Black Canary is white. Renee Montoya is Dominican (I believe). Harley, of course, is white (Australian! haha, joking.) Featuring one Asian American character doesn't feel like affirmative action to me, given that cast. (You could make the argument that they're going for the implausibly one of every color casting that you see a lot in TV, instead of showing small populations of different groups that don't interact a ton, but that's just the culture of film and TV these days.)

----------


## El_Gato

> Not sure how accurate the scoop is, but having Shiva, Cass and Katana on the team seems a little redundant.


Apparently Shiva and Katana are out and Renee Montoya is in. So its Harley Quinn, Black Canary, Huntress, Renee Montoya and Cassandra Cain. Really big roles for actresses in Hollywood imo... Casting should be interesting

----------


## dietrich

> Thanks for clarifying. (Also, for some reason, the first time I responded to your post, the video wasn't showing up in my browser, so I thought there wasn't anything to which you were referring. My apologies.) This is the article to which I was referring: https://www.middletownpress.com/ente...m-13079452.php
> 
> I like Grace, but she seems to be working from speculation. Additionally, given how many times the Batman and Batgirl films have been cancelled, uncancelled, rebooted, what have you, I'm deeply skeptical of any leaks, since those are just as likely to be part of cancelled versions.
> 
> Regarding the affirmative action point - I'm pretty opposed to affirmative action today (at least in education), since I think most students are able to compete and achieve proportionate to their population size. However, I don't think that's what's happening here. Helena Bertinelli is Italian. Black Canary is white. Renee Montoya is Dominican (I believe). Harley, of course, is white (Australian! haha, joking.) Featuring one Asian American character doesn't feel like affirmative action to me, given that cast. (You could make the argument that they're going for the implausibly one of every color casting that you see a lot in TV, instead of showing small populations of different groups that don't interact a ton, but that's just the culture of film and TV these days.)



I only saw the Grace video so thanks for the Link.

My reaction was based on the video which made the whole idea of the seem iffy.

I don't know much about the education system in the states but I do believe that the same blocks are still in place. Al the odds are still stacked against certain groups. Affirmative Action I feel is the bare minimum. A lot more is required to level things out and give everyone the same fight chance.

However Cass is a character that I feel should pass selection just based on her own merit. She is a good character.
I said it's sad because if it's affirmative action then there's a real possibility that much effort won't go into getting to the true essence of the Cass character.

If she there because of her race rather than the merits of her character then lord knows how they will handle her.

----------


## Aahz

> Apparently Shiva and Katana are out and Renee Montoya is in. So its Harley Quinn, Black Canary, Huntress, Renee Montoya and Cassandra Cain. Really big roles for actresses in Hollywood imo... Casting should be interesting


Don't know, to me it comes a little bit like  left out some of the bigger characters (Selina, Ivy, Barbara) so that Harley can be the be the biggest star of the movie.

----------


## millernumber1

> I only saw the Grace video so thanks for the Link.
> 
> My reaction was based on the video which made the whole idea of the seem iffy.
> 
> I don't know much about the education system in the states but I do believe that the same blocks are still in place. Al the odds are still stacked against certain groups. Affirmative Action I feel is the bare minimum. A lot more is required to level things out and give everyone the same fight chance.
> 
> However Cass is a character that I feel should pass selection just based on her own merit. She is a good character.
> I said it's sad because if it's affirmative action then there's a real possibility that much effort won't go into getting to the true essence of the Cass character.
> 
> If she there because of her race rather than the merits of her character then lord knows how they will handle her.


See, I don't think there's anything in the announcement that indicates Cass was chosen because of her race. I think you hit the nail in the head - Cass is a great character - she has a great place in the DC universe. And her backstory and general tone really fits a lot of the darkness of the DCEU so far, so I think it's kind of a great choice. (And honestly, despite my own preference for Steph, I think Cass fits the style of the DCEU Bat-universe best of the three, and given Joss Whedon's proclivities, I was surprised he didn't spring at her as his main character. But he's clearly making dumb choices recently with his films, so...)




> Don't know, to me it comes a little bit like  left out some of the bigger characters (Selina, Ivy, Barbara) so that Harley can be the be the biggest star of the movie.


I'm still waiting to find out what her role is. Because the way they left her in Suicide Squad, fully on Joker's side, it would make more sense if she were either teaming up with the Birds on the Squad, or an antagonist who may have a change of heart.

So again, super not interested in a ton of speculation, and SUPER not interested in getting mad about it until it's actually confirmed.

----------


## El_Gato

> Don't know, to me it comes a little bit like  left out some of the bigger characters (Selina, Ivy, Barbara) so that Harley can be the be the biggest star of the movie.


I get Barbara, but why would Selina or Ivy be involved?

----------


## Blight

I get the feeling Barbara will have a role in it. Think of it this way. if they adapt anything from the early comics, Babs didn't meet Dinah face to face till like in the twenties of the original series. What if the movie has that sort of spin on that? That every time the gals are on the ropes a mysterious being known (who even lured Harley into helping out Cassandra) helps them. This being name is Oracle and at the end of the movie Cassandra stays with her. Cue this leading into the Batgirl movie where you have two.

----------


## The Cool Thatguy

> Don't know, to me it comes a little bit like  left out some of the bigger characters (Selina, Ivy, Barbara) so that Harley can be the be the biggest star of the movie.


Good, be easier for Cass and the rest to overwhelm her  :Wink: 

...allow me my delusions.

----------


## millernumber1

> Good, be easier for Cass and the rest to overwhelm her 
> 
> ...allow me my delusions.


I know she was too old even when she first got big, but I've always wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play Cass. And she definitely wouldn't be overwhelmed! (Yes, I know the arguments about Cass's race. I still maintain that it's never been made clear where Shiva is from.)

----------


## dietrich

> See, I don't think there's anything in the announcement that indicates Cass was chosen because of her race. I think you hit the nail in the head - Cass is a great character - she has a great place in the DC universe. And her backstory and general tone really fits a lot of the darkness of the DCEU so far, so I think it's kind of a great choice. (And honestly, despite my own preference for Steph, I think Cass fits the style of the DCEU Bat-universe best of the three, and given Joss Whedon's proclivities, I was surprised he didn't spring at her as his main character. But he's clearly making dumb choices recently with his films, so...)



I didn't and don't believe Cass was picked because of her race. I believe she was selected because she is a good character, she fits the tone of the DCEU and following the success of X-23 he sort of character fits market demands.

I don't mind the lack of Selina or Ivy since they've both had time in cinema so I would like to see something fresh. I do however have an issue with the team being called BOP.

I actually like the current DCEU[aside from JL] so I'm hoping they don't go too light. WW was popular but I found it quite generic/bland so hope this new movie is more SS less WW.

----------


## millernumber1

> I didn't and don't believe Cass was picked because of her race. I believe she was selected because she is a good character, she fits the tone of the DCEU and following the success of X-23 he sort of character fits market demands.
> 
> I don't mind the lack of Selina or Ivy since they've both had time in cinema so I would like to see something fresh. I do however have an issue with the team being called BOP.
> 
> I actually like the current DCEU[aside from JL] so I'm hoping they don't go too light. WW was popular but I found it quite generic/bland so hope this new movie is more SS less WW.


Haha, that's kinda funny, since JL is my favorite of the current DCEU (including WW).

You hit on exactly why I'm so excited - we've never seen Cass on screen, and we've only seen a kinda sub-par Helena Bertinelli Huntress on Arrow (though I liked the actress they cast), and a sub-par In Name Only Canary on the Birds of Prey TV show. Most of all, I think Cass and the Birds are things that if they actually get some of the greatness of the Dixon and Simone and Puckett comics on screen, it'll really be something special - fresh!

I just hope they have a better plot structure/intelligence than SS. If that movie had better plotting, the dialogue and acting would have made it a favorite for me.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> I get Barbara, but why would Selina or Ivy be involved?


IIRC there had been plans to do a Gotham City Sirens Movie, but they decided to put Harley in Birds of Prey instead.

----------


## Confuzzled

> I get the feeling Barbara will have a role in it. Think of it this way. if they adapt anything from the early comics, Babs didn't meet Dinah face to face till like in the twenties of the original series. What if the movie has that sort of spin on that? That every time the gals are on the ropes a mysterious being known (who even lured Harley into helping out Cassandra) helps them. This being name is Oracle and at the end of the movie Cassandra stays with her. Cue this leading into the Batgirl movie where you have two.


Sounds good. Provides a great hook leading into the Batgirl solo film and also allows for a convenient way to bring Harley and the Birds of Prey together (Barbara having insight into Harley's skill set and psyche back from her Batgirl days).

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Cass on the big screen !!
Yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyeysyesyesyesy  esyesyesyeyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy  esyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes  yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyeyesyes

----------


## bat_girl_cc

Although we should be just carefully optimistic for now...but if they get her right...oh man...i knew it would happen eventually, but...man, what a joy!  :Smile:  :Embarrassment:

----------


## bat_girl_cc

does anyone have a idea of when well get more info?

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> So much for those who say DC hates Cass. Sometimes a company is just waiting for the right project.


LOL, DC hatred for Cass its so obvious that it hurts...its been obvious since like 2005 and still is...

----------


## millernumber1

> LOL, DC hatred for Cass its so obvious that it hurts...its been obvious since like 2005 and still is...


I agree that DC clearly had powerful writers and editors who hated Cass from 2005-2015, but I don't think it's clear anymore. Cass's part in Tec is one of the most popular things in Rebirth, I think.

----------


## Korath

Cassandra Cain by Patrick Zircher.

----------


## millernumber1

> Cassandra Cain by Patrick Zircher.


That is really, really pretty. Zirch is having a pretty strong career right now, with his work on the Walmart Batman comic, Silencer, and all the other stuff!

----------


## Digifiend

Birds of Prey isn't the only thing coming up... Cass is Batgirl in DC Ink too, with Babs as Oracle. Got to wonder now if they'll go back to the 2000s status quo in the mainline comics too.




> Marieke Nijkamp, the #1 New York Times best-selling YA author of This Is Where It Ends, will bring her storytelling to DC’s young adult line of graphic novels—DC Ink—with an original tale about a teenage Oracle, the superhero alter-ego that Barbara Gordon assumes after an encounter with The Joker confines her to a wheelchair. ORACLE: RISING will be joined by another tale about a teenage Batgirl, Cassandra Cain, in SHADOW OF THE BATGIRL, written by acclaimed author Sarah Kuhn, known for her popular Heroine Complex novels.


https://www.newsarama.com/40919-new-...-line-ups.html

----------


## millernumber1

> Birds of Prey isn't the only thing coming up... Cass is Batgirl in DC Ink too, with Babs as Oracle. Got to wonder now if they'll go back to the 2000s status quo in the mainline comics too.
> 
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40919-new-...-line-ups.html


That's quite exciting!

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I agree that DC clearly had powerful writers and editors who hated Cass from 2005-2015, but I don't think it's clear anymore. Cass's part in Tec is one of the most popular things in Rebirth, I think.


The only reason that she was brought back at all, is that Scott Snyder is currently one of the writters at DC with more "power" what he says pretty much goes...and hes a big fan of Cass, so is his friend James Tynion (who made her return happen), and so was the Bat-group editor Mark Doyle who some belive was put in there thanks to Snyder...we'll see from here on...although its possible that they wont bench her even if she sells good (something that i can totally see them doing), because the playfield is now leveled with some major writters that are Cass fans.

----------


## millernumber1

> The only reason that she was brought back at all, is that Scott Snyder is currently one of the writters at DC with more "power" what he says pretty much goes...and hes a big fan of Cass, so is his friend James Tynion (who made her return happen), and so was the Bat-group editor Mark Doyle who some belive was put in there thanks to Snyder...we'll see from here on...although its possible that they wont bench her even if she sells good (something that i can totally see them doing), because the playfield is now leveled with some major writters that are Cass fans.


I mean, I still have a huge bias against Tomasi for his role in Evil Cass, but he did include her in the Super Sons/Dynomutt special. And even though Didio is still around, making some trouble, he's also not actively interfering in the titles where Cass shows up, and the fact that she's showing up in the Ink/Zoom lineup is a big sign that DC's higher brass isn't as obsessive about destroying Cass as they were. Giving an imprint that's very high profile and designed to reach new readers (thus first impressions) a Cass story is pretty big, I think.

So I think there are still some people at DC who have clearly shown they don't like Cass (namely Didio and Tomasi), but there's evidence that they may be changing in their attitudes (through the Super Sons special and Ink/Zoom).

----------


## Frontier

> Birds of Prey isn't the only thing coming up... Cass is Batgirl in DC Ink too, with Babs as Oracle. Got to wonder now if they'll go back to the 2000s status quo in the mainline comics too.
> 
> 
> https://www.newsarama.com/40919-new-...-line-ups.html


Awesome  :Big Grin: !

I mean, it's one thing to have in a movie, but here we have DC releasing a book for younger readers with her actually attached to the Batgirl mantle  :Cool: .

----------


## omnipotentimpotent

Is it surreal to anyone else that a few weeks ago we had no clear indication on where Cass would be after Hill's run and just hoped she would continue to be in Tec and an Outsiders series if that happened? Now she will be in a movie and book for YA.....truly amazing. Hopefully this isnt all a dream....

----------


## berserkerclaw

> Is it surreal to anyone else that a few weeks ago we had no clear indication on where Cass would be after Hill's run and just hoped she would continue to be in Tec and an Outsiders series if that happened? Now she will be in a movie and book for YA.....truly amazing. Hopefully this isnt all a dream....


I keep hoping that she will be in the rumored Outssiders book. Id for sure get it for her

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I mean, I still have a huge bias against Tomasi for his role in Evil Cass, but he did include her in the Super Sons/Dynomutt special. And even though Didio is still around, making some trouble, he's also not actively interfering in the titles where Cass shows up, and the fact that she's showing up in the Ink/Zoom lineup is a big sign that DC's higher brass isn't as obsessive about destroying Cass as they were. Giving an imprint that's very high profile and designed to reach new readers (thus first impressions) a Cass story is pretty big, I think.
> 
> So I think there are still some people at DC who have clearly shown they don't like Cass (namely Didio and Tomasi), but there's evidence that they may be changing in their attitudes (through the Super Sons special and Ink/Zoom).



Hum...maybe...or maybe, they just dont have all of the power anymore...i mean, they still have power, but they might not want to piss-off a major writer or 2...either way, things are looking good now  :Smile: 

i didnt knew that she appeared on super-sons, did she had a meaningfull participation on that story?

----------


## bat_girl_cc

> I keep hoping that she will be in the rumored Outssiders book. Id for sure get it for her


me too  :Embarrassment:   :Cool:

----------


## millernumber1

> Hum...maybe...or maybe, they just dont have all of the power anymore...i mean, they still have power, but they might not want to piss-off a major writer or 2...either way, things are looking good now 
> 
> i didnt knew that she appeared on super-sons, did she had a meaningfull participation on that story?


No, it was just one panel, as part of Batman's worldwide agents. And it was in the Dynomutt crossover special, so I doubt it's actually in continuity.

----------


## SneakyLookingSort

> No, it was just one panel, as part of Batman's worldwide agents. And it was in the Dynomutt crossover special, so I doubt it's actually in continuity.


Who knows, they could have been put there by the artist himself :P

----------


## millernumber1

> Who knows, they could have been put there by the artist himself :P


Maybe, but I can't remember Pasarin working on a Cass title before.

----------


## Frontier

Info on the DC Ink Cass book:




> Cassandra Cain will have a dark, coming of age story. This will be a heartfelt, character driven coming of age story.
> 
> For the Batgirl book - it's a retelling of her origin story. It's about finding her family.
> 
> It will explore the female relationships in Cassandra's life.

----------


## millernumber1

> Info on the DC Ink Cass book:


Pretty exciting! I hope that "relationships" means more than one (just Babs), and includes Steph as Spoiler...  :Smile:

----------


## Frontier

> Pretty exciting! I hope that "relationships" means more than one (just Babs), and includes Steph as Spoiler...


It probably depends on who from Cass's history they want to include, but honestly one of my first thoughts was Shiva considering the premise.

----------


## millernumber1

> It probably depends on who from Cass's history they want to include, but honestly one of my first thoughts was Shiva considering the premise.


Could be three, though! Shiva would be a pretty good villain, and deserves more attention.

----------


## Korath

The relationships I want to see explored :
Shiva has the mother and "dark future"
Babs has the mentor in the superhero community
Steph as the equal and friend among the costumes
Harper has her friend among the civilians 

I think that Cassandra has so much connections with peoples, it would be sad to limit it to one or two in such a book.

----------


## millernumber1

> The relationships I want to see explored :
> Shiva has the mother and "dark future"
> Babs has the mentor in the superhero community
> Steph as the equal and friend among the costumes
> Harper has her friend among the civilians 
> 
> I think that Cassandra has so much connections with peoples, it would be sad to limit it to one or two in such a book.


I love it.  :Smile:  Hopefully the author does too!

----------


## berserkerclaw

Id love a mini or ongoing starring Cass Steph and Tim exploring the idea of the pre new 52 universe

----------


## RedBird

mingjuechen



Batgirls

----------


## Caivu

DnD Cass and Kate by @dopingues on Twitter:

IMG_20180727_160506.jpg

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## millernumber1

> DnD Cass and Kate by @dopingues on Twitter:
> 
> IMG_20180727_160506.jpg


Very Cute!  :Smile:

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## RedBird

sonialiao

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## millernumber1

> sonialiao


I love Cass's expression here - so contemplative.

We also got this amazing piece featuring Cass - the little detail of Basil's hand on her arm is fantastic.



https://twitter.com/route345dude/sta...63991991078912

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## brer rabbit

So I have this What-If idea in where instead of Cassandra Cain become Batgirl, she becomes Sailor Saturn from Sailor Moon

and join the Sailor Scouts in season 1

It would be interesting to see Cass interactions with the rest of the team given that well... the Sailor Scouts while they are friends who are willing to die for one another, they are very realistic of how they acted for their age and Teenage girls act shallow sometimes.



While I didn't write this snippet it capture the idea pretty good.

Ikuko Tsukino has quickly come to accept that her other was an odd child. She wasnt the brightestthough her friendship with Amy had shown a steady improvement in that department. She was a bit spoiled, despite her age she would always fight her little brother and cousin for sweets. And she was too secretive for her own good. Though that was probably just her being a teenager.

But one thing Ikuko was never worried about was her heart.

So when her daughter came to her with a silent, biracial Chinese runaway who had nowhere to go. Ikuko couldnt say she was surprised.

Mom, this is Cass, said Serena, giving her the same puppy dog expression she would use to get a extra piece of cake. Can she stay with us?

Ikuko glanced at the clearly underweight child in front of her who refused to meet her eye.

She can stay- her daughter interrupted her with a squeal of joy. For the night, she added. And you have to help me with dinner.

Her daughter practically jumped out of her seat and dragged the surprised girl upstairs giggling. Come on Cass.

And also given the fact that this fic would be set in 90's Japan and Cassandra is half-White half-CHINESE she going to be facing some... Intolerance and bigotry (nothing she can't handle) but it's going to be present. :Frown:

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## brer rabbit

So I have this What-If idea in where instead of Cassandra Cain become Batgirl, she becomes Sailor Saturn from Sailor Moon

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## millernumber1

That's a pretty cool idea. I was also thinking (maybe I saw it here? But I think it was elsewhere) that I'd love to see Cass become the next Wildcat. It'd be a pretty cool legacy story. Of a character who doesn't exist anymore.  :Frown:

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## Matt

There is a notion that rather large threads may contribute to server load. As such, we are experimenting with closing existing threads to see if it helps matters.
Feel free to start a new thread on the same topic.

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