# Comics  > Batman >  Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2021

## Sonia

Hoping for a good showing Jason Todd aka Red Hood for 2021.

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## Sergard

Happy new year to everybody.


*Current*/Upcoming Appearances:

In comics:

_Task Force Z_ written by Matthew Rosenberg, with art by Eddy Barrows and Eber Ferreira_Future State: Gotham_ written by Joshua Williamson and Dennis Culver, with art by Giannis Milonogiannis_Suicide Squad: Get Joker!_ written by Brian Azzarello, with art by Alex Maleev_Titans United_ written by Cavan Scott, with art by Jose Luis_Robins_ written by Tim Seeley, with art by Baldemar Rivas (DC Round Robin)(side-character) _Dark Knights of Steel_ written by Tom Taylor, with art by Yasmine Putri_Beyond the White Knight_ written/drawn by Sean Murphy (_Batman: White Knight_ universe)(fan-made) _Batman: Wayne Family Adventures_ written by CRC Payne, with art by StarBite

Past comic appearances (in 2021)

_Future State: Dark Detective_ #2 and #4: _The Red Hood_ written by Joshua Williamson, with art by Giannis Milonogiannis_Truth & Justice #4_ written by Jeff Trammell, with art by Rob Guillory (digital first release)_Batman: Urban Legends_ (Anthology) #1-#6: _Batman/Red Hood_ written by Chip Zdarsky, with art by Eddy Barrows
(collected in _Batman: Urban Legends_ Vol. 1)_The Road to Task Force Z_ - back-up in _Detective Comics_ #1041 - #1043, written by Matthew Rosenberg, with art by Darick Robertson(guest appearance) _Robin_ #5 written by Joshua Williamson, with art by Gleb Melnikov(guest appearance) _Nightwing Annual 2021_ #1 written by Tom Taylor, with art by Cian Tormey(on the cover of) _Batman: Fear State: Omega_ #1

Other media:
_Gotham Knights_ game (delayed until 2022)_Young Justice_ (cartoon), season 4_Titans_ (TV series), season 3XM Red Hood (Samurai Series) 1/4 Premium Collectibles Statue by XM StudiosMcFarlane Toys DC MULTIVERSE - Red Hood Unmasked (Gold Label)McFarlane Toys DC MULTIVERSE Batman Three Jokers - Red HoodMcFarlane Toys DC Multiverse DCeased Unkillables - Red HoodMcFarlane Toys DC Gaming - Red HoodBatman: Arkham Knight Amazing Yamaguchi Revoltech No.24 Arkham Knight Action FigureBatman: Hush MAFEX No.133 Hush



*Background information:*

"I'm my own man! Me, Jason Todd!"

(Batman #408)
_
Jason Peter Todd, born and risen in Lady City of Gotham's crudest part, came to become the second Robin, the Red Hood and the Wingman; the Arkham Knight of a different, grimmer universe; The Damned Prince of Gotham who suffered and died by the hand of the Clown Prince of Crime - but also the young man whose sheer will and bad luck couldn't let him rest and who made his way back from the grave.

Vigilante, avenger: he fights for fairness, for setting the wrong right and for defending and protecting those who cannot fend themselves, and he will do so crossing lines into dark areas or delivering a brutal brand of justice. A daring and sassy adventurer who has traveled not only this world and the space, but other universes. A flawed man who fights not only the monsters out but also inside, who fears the ghosts of memories and suffers from them and despite that will fight back with determination. A man who can despise himself as much as he despises others; Who makes mistakes but also rights; Who can love as much as long for being loved, and hate as much as he loves. Who can lose himself in anger as well as in loneliness.

Jason Peter Todd is a complex character, product of a complex editorial history. This is his appreciation thread and this is how we come to appreciate and ramble about him._

(Thanks @Zaresh for writing the above introduction.)

*Quick two-step introduction to Jason Todd/Red Hood*

*Step 1:* Watch _Batman: Under the Red Hood_
*Step 2*: Read the current Rebirth run of _Red Hood and the Outlaws_ (renamed _Red Hood: Outlaw_ with issue 27 and _Red Hood_ with issue 51), trades:
Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol 1 - Dark TrinityRed Hood and the Outlaws Vol 2 - Who is Artemis?Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol 3 - Bizarro RebornRed Hood and the Outlaws Vol 4 - Good Night GothamRed Hood: Outlaw Vol 1 - Requiem for an ArcherRed Hood: Outlaw Vol 2 - Prince of GothamRed Hood: Outlaw Vol 3 - Generation OutlawRed Hood: Outlaw Vol 4 - Unspoken Truths

*Old Threads:*
Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight Appreciation 2020
Jason Todd: Robin, Red Hood, Arkham Knight, Prince of Gotham Appreciation 2019 
Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018 (actually 2014-2018)

*Fanfic recommendations:*

List of recommended fanfic authors
List of recommended fanfics (info)

*DC Forum Appreciation Thread rules:*

1) No negative comments about the honoree(s) of this thread. It's an appreciation thread, not a non-appreciation one.

2) No negative discussion about any competitors of the honoree(s) of this thread. No ifs, ands, or buts. Find another non-appreciation thread to do that, just not here.

3) No negative comments about other versions of the character. For example, if you like the DCU version of Cyborg, but hate the DCnU version (or visa versa), just appreciate the earlier version and keep your comments about the latter to yourself.

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## K7P5V

Kenneth Rocafort will always be my favorite artist for *Red Hood* (Jason Todd):

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## Restingvoice

Happy new year, sweet prince

820872._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

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## Sergard

artist: @hwen118



artist: Yolin

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Happy 2021

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## Zaresh

> Happy 2021


Happy new year to you all, guys. I hope this 2021 ends up being a way happier year than the previous one.

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## Sergard

> Happy new year to you all, guys. I hope this 2021 ends up being a way happier year than the previous one.


I hope so too. Maybe I'm misremembering but I feel like 2020 started very promising - and then a lot of bad stuff happened.

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## Frontier

Happy New Year to Jason and all his fans  :Smile: .

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## Zaresh

> I hope so too. Maybe I'm misremembering but I feel like 2020 started very promising - and then a lot of bad stuff happened.


It started good, yeah. But then, it all went down soon enough, unfortunately.




> Happy New Year to Jason and all his fans .


Wish you the same. Wish you the best this year.

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## AJpyro

Happy new year to my favorite robin.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Surprised Tynion's newsletter hasn't been posted yet.




> Urban Legends is going to be a real gift. *A lot of storylines will be seeded in that title before they break out into their own titles… There are also more books to come in the Gotham line as the year goes on. Big moments in the core Gotham titles will set new runs in motion in other titles. Backups and shorts might turn into one-shots and miniseries and series, and we're working to make sure it all matters.*


https://bleedingcool.com/comics/jame...and-the-joker/

I'm not sure about what to think of these possibilities, to be honest. For a unified storyline running among multiple titles to work, it needs that the person in charge of it has the needed chops to spin so many plates at once and unfortunately, DC has proved again and again that they no longer have people around able to do that. Furthermore, Tynion is the current architect of the Batman universe for the foreseeable future, and I've never liked his work or the creative choices he makes (to not mention that the one time he wrote Jason it was an unreadable mess) so I'm worried the remedy ends up being worse than the sickness. 

We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

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## Arsenal

Sounds like it’ll be a collaborative effort with monthly meetings and such so maybe it’ll be more of them hands off and focused on making sure everybody’s on the same page with recent developments.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Sounds like it’ll be a collaborative effort with monthly meetings and such so maybe it’ll be more of them hands off and focused on making sure everybody’s on the same page with recent developments.


You realize that is (allegedly) precisely what every major "unified editorial line" has been for a decade. right? Did you forget already of Snyder's claims during Night of Owls? or Tynion's own stint as the Batman Architect during the two Batman Eternal weeklies?

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## Arsenal

> You realize that is (allegedly) precisely what every major "unified editorial line" has been for a decade. right? Did you forget already of Snyder's claims during Night of Owls? or Tynion's own stint as the Batman Architect during the two Batman Eternal weeklies?


C’mon Dark, let me pretend it’ll be different this time until it inevitably proves it’s no different than it was every other time they claimed the exact same thing.

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## MajorHoy

If anybody's interested, here's a look at Jason when he first dons a costume, all the way back in *Detective Comics #526* (May 1983):

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## Fergus

> If anybody's interested, here's a look at Jason when he first dons a costume, all the way back in *Detective Comics #526* (May 1983):


 So he figured out Bruce was batman

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## Aahz

What stuff from the past would you like to see addressed in Future comics?
My list is:
- does Jason have memories from pre crisis now?
- the Box Damian wanted to use against Jason in Teen Titans
- the Isabel/Essence situation
- Jason getting his memory back from Saru

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## RedBird

I haven't seen anyone link this article yet. Thoughts?

I still think almost all the 'issues' brought up in this article can still be summarised by writers having 0% interest to examine and expand on Jason.

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## RedBird

> What stuff from the past would you like to see addressed in Future comics?
> My list is:
> - does Jason have memories from pre crisis now?
> - the Box Damian wanted to use against Jason in Teen Titans
> - the Isabel/Essence situation
> - Jason getting his memory back from Saru


A few of my selections are a little broad but:

- The stance between him and Bruce. Like, are they cool with each other, is Jason still banished for his methods overall or just for using them in Gotham? What's the relationship now? etc
- Jasons mental health. Rhato brought up that he had PTSD and then never really touched on it again.
- The All Blades, do they still work properly? Again, Rhato brought up them being weaker than when he was younger and then never touched on it again.
- Jasons connection with Talia? What is it now? She gave him his life back, helped train him and then they just never spoke again.
- Jasons resurrection. How did it happen? What's the story behind it?

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## Aahz

> I haven't seen anyone link this article yet. Thoughts?
> 
> I still think almost all the 'issues' brought up in this article can still be summarised by writers having 0% interest to examine and expand on Jason.


Their main point seems to be that Jason should move past his trauma and that they should sort out his relation with Batman.

That's something I can agree with.

I also think that they need to find a way to handle Joker, the way Jason was handled in Joker Wars in comparison to Harley and Bao was odd (I think 3 Jokers did that better even if there were still a lot of problems).

And while I like Bao, I still don't really get why they introduced him, since the guy who goes after the Joker and his goons should be Jason.

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## Zaresh

> If anybody's interested, here's a look at Jason when he first dons a costume, all the way back in *Detective Comics #526* (May 1983):


@Major, if you're reading the old stuff, we had a discontinued dedicated thread some of us used to post on. In case you're curious about our thoughts on It  :Cool: .

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## CorDaytona

> A few of my selections are a little broad but:
> 
> - The stance between him and Bruce. Like, are they cool with each other, is Jason still banished for his methods overall or just for using them in Gotham? What's the relationship now? etc


This one I guess is gonna flip-flop as usual. The end of #52 implies that Jason is welcome to Gotham (or, at the very least, Bruce is in good terms with him). Not that I don't expect some shit to happen between them come Urban Legends, although at least I have a good chance of really liking that story seeing who's writing. The interesting thing is the guns part, yeah. 

The rest of your points are good as well. Would love to have a book dealing with his PTSD and mental health problems as a running feature, at least for a while. Three Jokers kinda dealt with that, but, well, we all know how (still enjoyed the story and Fabok's art was as stellar as usual).

If there's a soft reboot for him after Urban Legends, I can see some retcons/retelling of his origin and/or resurrection. Not that I need it, but if they want a clean narrative break to attract new people, they might as well.

Just... ditch the fucking Outlaw costume.

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## Restingvoice

> A few of my selections are a little broad but:
> 
> - The stance between him and Bruce. Like, are they cool with each other, is Jason still banished for his methods overall or just for using them in Gotham? What's the relationship now? etc
> - Jasons mental health. Rhato brought up that he had PTSD and then never really touched on it again.
> - The All Blades, do they still work properly? Again, Rhato brought up them being weaker than when he was younger and then never touched on it again.
> - Jasons connection with Talia? What is it now? She gave him his life back, helped train him and then they just never spoke again.
> - Jasons resurrection. How did it happen? What's the story behind it?


In Batman Incorporated, Jason gave Talia a chance to walk away because he owes her. She didn't and was shot by Kathy. After that they haven't interacted again as far as I know.

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## Zaresh

> I haven't seen anyone link this article yet. Thoughts?
> 
> I still think almost all the 'issues' brought up in this article can still be summarised by writers having 0% interest to examine and expand on Jason.


Not a good start for the article when in the first few lines you find this: "Jason Todd, once so greatly reviled that an overwhelming majority of Batman readers voted for his death (...)". It was a mayority, by 72 votes. Out of thousands. Not exactly overwhelming.

I disagree with plenty of his statements actually. He grew by how he dealt with Bizarro too, for example. And definitely, he doesn't have some simmering hate towards Bruce. He's dissapointed, plenty, and resentful to certain degree. Rage is such an unfitting word, too. Rage towards crime, sure. A cold, violent rage. Towards Bruce? Eh... I don't see it.

I haven't read further, I don't want to spoil myself the 3 jokers to that much yet. Still going to read it at some point in the near future. I guess the point is that Jason needs to really advance his story, though. But unfortunately, you can only get that in corporate comics when a story is good, or impactful enough, or read by enough readers, to change perception of the general audience and creatives behind the stories.  

And my issues with the article probably have to do with the writer seemingly not being well aware of the Rebirth run of the Outlaws, or maybe even the New 52/DCYou one.

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## MajorHoy

> @Major, if you're reading the old stuff, . . .


Actually, I bought some of the "old stuff" when it originally came out.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

A low-quality picture of Urban Legends #2 cover has leaked

1610725440953.jpg




> I haven't seen anyone link this article yet. Thoughts?
> 
> I still think almost all the 'issues' brought up in this article can still be summarised by writers having 0% interest to examine and expand on Jason.


This article is biased and badly researched. It says that Jason hasn't grown as a character in his book and insists that Jason's only thing on his mind is getting revenge on the Joker. This is false, he has stopped worrying about the Joker (unless the Joker is targeting him or his Outlaws directly) and has moved to different ventures.

It says that Jason is still stuck about his death and has an unnatural reaction to his death or Roy's. His death will be something he will always have in his mind, but he has more or less come to terms with it over the years, most clearly seen when he was back in Qandaq during the second volume of RHATO, and his reaction (or lack of) towards Roy's death was explained as him acknowledging heroes always come back, a degree of awareness you rarely see in comic books and that makes all the sense of the world for Jason to have given his experiences. So yeah, that article is bunk, as it tends to be with most articles written by big name sites that only have a cursory knowledge of the characters.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> BATMAN: URBAN LEGENDS #2
> 
> Written by CHIP ZDARSKY, MATTHEW ROSENBERG, BRANDON THOMAS, and CECIL CASTELLUCCI
> 
> Art by EDDY BARROWS, RYAN BENJAMIN, MAX DUNBAR, and MARGUERITE SAUVAGE
> 
> Cover by HICHAM HABCHI
> 
> Variant cover by FRANCESCO MATTINA
> ...


So much for Urban Legends writing Jason in a novel way, we're back to the "conflict with Batman due to misunderstandings" plots for the nth time. And they _still_ haven't changed the costume.

Meh.

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## Zaresh

> Actually, I bought some of the "old stuff" when it originally came out.


I guess so. I should've better said re-read ^_^U. I think I remember you said you had some age when we were talking about my grandma's childhood like.. a year and half ago?

Hope you enjoy your readings, anyways  :Smile:

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## CorDaytona

Dexter Soy got Green Lantern btw.




> So much for Urban Legends writing Jason in a novel way, we're back to the "conflict with Batman due to misunderstandings" plots for the nth time. And they _still_ haven't changed the costume.
> 
> Meh.


My hope is that after everything's said and done, Jason reconciles with Bruce (for the 485th time) and gets the hell out of Gotham to do his own thing for good. There's only so many times you can do the same shit over and over again and they're clearly not interested in having different relationship dynamics with Bruce and the rest (recently, we've had TJ and the aftermath of Cobblepot's "assasination"). Also, a brand new outfit.

Alas, he'll probably not get an ongoing, so chances are he's appearing in Batfamily books with these kinds of story hooks.

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## Zaresh

> So much for Urban Legends writing Jason in a novel way, we're back to the "conflict with Batman due to misunderstandings" plots for the nth time. And they _still_ haven't changed the costume.
> 
> Meh.


Well, the story appeals me. It does tell something new, actually. I can't recall Jason dealing with killing someone he perhaps shouldn't and trying to amend it somehow, being it an accidental killing or a murdering. Not in the main dcu universe comics that I can recall. Maybe in some alternate universe once. And it is a storyline that brings a lot of interesting themes to the table if done right (and I trust it will be well done).

You guys think he's going to be at odds with Bruce in the end, but so far, I'm not really worried about that (not now). What I'm worried about is that I'm steadily loosing my hopes for them to put a new ongoing after this mini ends. Or even another mini shortly afterwards.

Everything Batman.
And by Batman I mean Main Bats, because I think Batgirl will get her own in the end, maybe with the birds (besides being support cast in NW)

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## Restingvoice

Ugh I'm skipping past the kill and fight part straight to Jason Now Has A Kid. Now that is interesting. He's experienced and I hope the kid stays for cuteness and angst

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## Hannibal

Why are you guys loosing hope of an ongoing suddendly?

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## Zaresh

> Ugh I'm skipping past the kill and fight part straight to Jason Now Has A Kid. Now that is interesting. He's experienced and I hope the kid stays for cuteness and angst


If Jason did kill the father, and the father wasn't a big piece of crap, it's going to be a wild ride for sure.

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## Zaresh

I was thinking... Tim doesn't seem to have anything going for him either yet.

Guys, what if they put both reds in a buddy cop book? Not going to happen, but... what ifff...

(Again, sorry for all this double posting)

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## Pohzee

Yeah, I have no interest in anything Jason until he gets a new costume.

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## CorDaytona

My optismistic side says they're waiting for a new creative team (whether they've already made plans or not) works on RH to change it. 

But yeah, I'm so over it. It's annoying, considering how perfect his first Rebirth one was. Or how good the Three Jokers outfit is.

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## Sergard

"The new Batman anthology series continues! In part two of Chip Zdarsky and Eddy Barrows's epic Batman/Red Hood story, Jason Todd has taken a man's life, and now his mission is to keep the dead man's young son safe. *But Batman plans to take down Jason before he can make another mistake.*"

For the love of god, can Batman just f*ck off? I'm so tired of him and I have zero interest in Bruce' opinion.

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## Jackalope89

I'll see how the first issue goes, but I have some serious concerns going into it now.

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## Badou

I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.


Or you know, it might be Dick undercover given he's Deathstroke in Future State.

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## Hannibal

> I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.


Doesn’t think so, because Robin solo starts in April and RH arc finish around august in Urban Legends.

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## Rise

Jason's mortal combat costume has grown on me so I don't actually mind it and the solicit isn't not bad except for Batman and Jason fighting for the billionth time. 

And I think that's it for me with DC. The new line up is simply boring and uninteresting except for two books.

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## Sergard

> I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.


Please no.

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## Zaresh

> I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.


I think the mask is two coloured, it's not an artistic choice or an effect of the lighting. I think it's a new character.

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## Smilingblade

> Yeah, I have no interest in anything Jason until he gets a new costume.


I feel the same way.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Gotham Knights twitter finally posted  their pics for Jason's Knighthood

https://twitter.com/GothamKnights/st...63306611429378

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## Sergard

Giannis Milonogiannis

_"Here's a test drawing I did before we started on our Future State Red Hood story.

Out on the 26th, in Dark Detective #2"_

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://heroichollywood.com/taron-eg...ept-image/amp/

Now this is a fan casting I can get behind.

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## CorDaytona

> https://heroichollywood.com/taron-eg...ept-image/amp/
> 
> Now this is a fan casting I can get behind.


I don't really fancast, but he's been my choice for Jason for a while! He'd surely pull off Jason's traits really well based on his past work (anger, charm, snark...).

Sadly, I can't see us getting a film Batfamily anytime soon (and it's not like I liked Snyder's take on Robin's death -among many other things-. It'd have been a disservice to both Dick and Jason). 

I could see them introducing Dick in The Batman at best I guess, which would be cool. If Pattinson's supposed to be 25 or so, Dick being a teenager and getting adopted by the end would work, but I don't think it's a priority of them.

EDIT: close-up of the Urban Legends cover by Hicham Habchi. See, I'm _way_ tired of the MK getup, but this is one of those artists whose take on it I really like.

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## Sergard

People on Instagram having fun with the McFarlane Red Hood action figure:



(source)



(source)



(source)

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## Jackalope89

> I don't really fancast, but he's been my choice for Jason for a while! He'd surely pull off Jason's traits really well based on his past work (anger, charm, snark...).
> 
> Sadly, I can't see us getting a film Batfamily anytime soon (and it's not like I liked Snyder's take on Robin's death -among many other things-. It'd have been a disservice to both Dick and Jason). 
> 
> I could see them introducing Dick in The Batman at best I guess, which would be cool. If Pattinson's supposed to be 25 or so, Dick being a teenager and getting adopted by the end would work, but I don't think it's a priority of them.
> 
> EDIT: close-up of the Urban Legends cover by Hicham Habchi. See, I'm _way_ tired of the MK getup, but this is one of those artists whose take on it I really like.


Yeah, I personally suck at fan-castings. Though when I see what others post, I can usually either agree on the pick or not.

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## Aahz

> I don't really fancast, but he's been my choice for Jason for a while! He'd surely pull off Jason's traits really well based on his past work (anger, charm, snark...).


thing is by the time they could actually do Red Hood in the Pattison movies he would probaly to old for the role (and he is actually not much younger than Pattionson).

Thats imo general kind of the problem with fan casting the Robins, in most cases I would just come with actors that would have been a good fit 5+ years ago.

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## RedBird

https://www.cbr.com/red-hood-jason-t...t-family-hill/

Another article about Jason, this time about him needing to leave the Bat-Family.
Not much to say about this one, but I agree with the general sentiment. And similar to my own viewpoint, the article even mentions that general team ups are fine and all, it's not about Jason completely cutting himself out, but about him having adventures and continuing to evolve where he doesn't have Bats looking over his shoulder. 

I hope whatever story Urban Legends has in store will set up an interesting status quo, preferably away from Bats.
Speaking of Urban Legends, the solicitation for issue #2 looks intriguing, I don't think Jason has ever been in a position before, where he has to look out for a targets kin. Is there more at play or is it just a matter of him feeling guilty? We'll see I guess.




> My hope is that after everything's said and done, Jason reconciles with Bruce (for the 485th time) and gets the hell out of Gotham to do his own thing for good. *There's only so many times you can do the same shit over and over again and they're clearly not interested in having different relationship dynamics with Bruce and the rest* (recently, we've had TJ and the aftermath of Cobblepot's "assasination"). Also, a brand new outfit.


Honestly it isn't even the repetition that has been an issue for me as much as it is the utter lack of logical resolution every time. Like Rhato following up the cold and harsh response in issue #25 with the almost tone deaf and confusing resolution in issue #27. Or with the fact that even when writers do decide to open that can of worms, they then proceed to absolutely drop it and ignore it like with Three Jokers. That book could have been a great insight into how Bruce really feels about Jasons methods and the conflict therein, especially when he opens up to Barbara and talks her down after Jason kills Joker, he almost rationalises Jasons actions. But then the book turns around and just has Bruce attack Jason and pull a 'Ya just don't get it man' before the entire issue is completely dropped. Whether it's misunderstandings like Rhato or Leviathan, or even when it's purposeful, Bruce and Jason never ever get to actually converse or communicate with anything besides violence and when it seems to be an opportune moment for them to talk, or argue, for some kind of catharsis, all important issues are brushed aside and ignored. To be clear, it's not even about completely resolving their entire code of ethics or relationship either, it's just about at least resolving matters in the present, conflicts that happen within the story.

Also yes, a change of outfit would be nice, much preferably a return to his Rebirth outfit.

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## CorDaytona

> thing is by the time they could actually do Red Hood in the Pattison movies he would probaly to old for the role (and he is actually not much younger than Pattionson).
> 
> Thats imo general kind of the problem with fan casting the Robins, in most cases I would just come with actors that would have been a good fit 5+ years ago.


Yeah, I know! That's the "problem" with film Batman and the obsession with a solo/newbie character. 

Like, as I said, at most they'll feature Dick in The Batman trilogy, which would probably be him in his teenage years. Although it depends: after all, while he looks young (and that's emphasized in his The Batman look), Pattinson is about to be 35, so they could always do a big enough timeskip in the second movie and advance the Batfamily plot a little bit. I don't think that's where Reeves' interests lie, sadly. 

Then there's that other Batman they're going to do movies about/with, which is assumed to be Keaton. There you _could_ do some Batfamily stuff, but I don't expect his character to be a focus nor WB having that kind of priority either. He'll probably play a mentor role for Flash and that's about it.

As I said, I didn't like most things Snyder was doing with the DCU (quite liked MoS and also some casting and narrative decisions, though), but the whole Batfleck thing was a mixed bag: it was missed opportunity in the sense that we could finally get some semblance of a Batfamily given Bruce's age and I really liked Affleck as the choice. But it was, to me, also plagued with misteps regarding much of his characterization, Joker's character (easily fixable) and the whole "Dick takes Jason's role in Joker's murder", which I think is a huge disservice to both characters. 




> https://www.cbr.com/red-hood-jason-t...t-family-hill/
> 
> Another article about Jason, this time about him needing to leave the Bat-Family.
> Not much to say about this one, but I agree with the general sentiment. And similar to my own viewpoint, the article even mentions that general team ups are fine and all, it's not about Jason completely cutting himself out, but about him having adventures and continuing to evolve where he doesn't have Bats looking over his shoulder. 
> 
> I hope whatever story Urban Legends has in store will set up an interesting status quo, preferably away from Bats.
> Speaking of Urban Legends, the solicitation for issue #2 looks intriguing, I don't think Jason has ever been in a position before, where he has to look out for a targets kin. Is there more at play or is it just a matter of him feeling guilty? We'll see I guess.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, man, that reconciliation in the diner was really weird, yeah. Out of nowhere and rushed, it diminished whatever significance Bruce's awful demeanor against Jason might have had in the short or long run (to then return to a more hostile environment during the Prince of Gotham arc). Regarding TTJ, I honestly liked how Batman wasn't his usual self regarding Jason's M.O., how he tried to be understanding and rational about where he's coming from (which was extra needed considering who the three of them were dealing with in this story). So yeah, it was dissapointing to see what was ultimately made of that, the ending wasn't great for Jason as a whole. Had forgotten about Leviathan lmao.

In any case, I love Batman. I'd say he's my favourite character in comics (even if I feel more strong opinions regarding Jason, also a favourite of mine). While greatly helped by some great stories, supporting characters and rogues, Bruce's the biggest reason why Gotham-related stories are my favourite, along with X-Men ones. So it's frustrating when they can't get his relationship with Jason to a place beyond the usual surface-level dynamics that dwell on the same thing over and over with, as you said, no logical or cathartic conclusion. 

I have little hope that Urban Legends will mean a change in their status quo, but it's cool to dream. At least, judging the writer, it'll finally be a story I like (most likely).

At the end of the day, I guess it's a narrative lack of interest, both by DC and writers who either don't really care much for the relationship/Jason or, imo, simply don't have enough nuance or solid ideas to pull something off, which is what happened in his ongoing.

----------


## Aahz

> As I said, I didn't like most things Snyder was doing with the DCU (quite liked MoS and also some casting and narrative decisions, though), but the whole Batfleck thing was a mixed bag: it was missed opportunity in the sense that we could finally get some semblance of a Batfamily given Bruce's age and I really liked Affleck as the choice. But it was, to me, also plagued with misteps regarding much of his characterization, Joker's character (easily fixable) and the whole "Dick takes Jason's role in Joker's murder", which I think is a huge disservice to both characters.


Snyders Batman was imo allready to old for that, since they would have technically also have to age up the rest of the Bat family and villains accordingly.
Dick for example would have had to be about the same age as Superman.

Of course the example of Harley Quinn shows that they didn't really, really care keeping the ages consistent.

----------


## Zaresh

> I hope whatever story Urban Legends has in store will set up an interesting status quo, preferably away from Bats.
> Speaking of Urban Legends, the solicitation for issue #2 looks intriguing, I don't think Jason has ever been in a position before, where he has to look out for a targets kin. Is there more at play or is it just a matter of him feeling guilty? We'll see I guess.


Even when the starting point resembles plenty of previous conflicting stories or events with Bruce, this one has nice, newish spins that really, really have caught my interest. Jason dealing with the consequences of his acts or the consequences of how he works (being it an accident, a misunderstanding or a wrong kill call) with some impact that lasts enough to tell an actual story; and then Jason taking care of the child of the murdered / victim / criminal (we don't really know yet), which is even a more fresh idea and I'm totally digging it. It comes close to the stories of some of my fave fics, and Chip has written stories close enough that I trust him to do a fine work with it.

(On the other hand, I think I'm going to not like the art much, so I just hope it doesn't distract me too much. I can deal with it if I like what I'm reading  :Cool: )

----------


## AmiMizuno

CBR feels the same

https://www.cbr.com/red-hood-jason-t...t-family-hill/

I wouldn't mind if he goes to visit once in a while or if his family is in endanger but other than that he leaves them be. Just always keeping a eye

----------


## CorDaytona

> Snyders Batman was imo allready to old for that, since they would have technically also have to age up the rest of the Bat family and villains accordingly.
> Dick for example would have had to be about the same age as Superman.
> 
> Of course the example of Harley Quinn shows that they didn't really, really care keeping the ages consistent.


Idk, they could always have taken a different route from the comics and make it so that Bruce adopted Grayson when he was older and already deep into his Batman days. And not every rogue needs to be there since the beginning of Bruce's career, only a few of them if needed.

Like, by the time of the DCEU Batman films, you could have had:
Dick as Nightwing. Many already recognize him as Robin and I guess his Nightwing persona is popular enough among some; those who don't know him would simply think "Oh, so that's the first Robin as I remember from the comics/movies/shows. I guess he's on his own now".Jason's Robin as the murdered one, some years before we see Bruce for the first time in BvS. Basically, the backstory already introduced. Whether you pull an UtRH or not down the line, that's another thing.Tim being introduced as a possible new Robin in some future film, which would work around Bruce's arc not getting over Joker's actions and healing.

But yeah, as you said, it's not like that universe is the most consistent one, at least right now. And a Batfamily as we know it in the comics was, seemingly, never in the cards, at least under Zack's direction, who wanted Carrie as the next Robin.

----------


## Aahz

The problem with that is, that according to Snyder DCEU Batman was retired for 10 years after the Death of Jason. 

With both Dick and Jason before that, Dick would have to be in his 30s and making Tim classic origin work in that timeline would really be tricky.

----------


## Korath

Yeah, Jason moving away from the Bat for a while - a good long while - would do wonder for the character. He doesn't need to be constrained by Batman's code and ethos. We saw with the Outlaws, especially Artemis and Bizarro, that he can have some wonderful development as a human character without Bruce, but he is so often regressed when he's around him... I don't think he needs the craziest villains and the highest stakes stories, he works best when he's dealing with other characters who have been cracked by life, disregarded and sometimes lashes out at the world in relatable ways.

Also, I know I'm in a minority, but his current attire has really grown on me and it'd be strange now to return to the older look I think. Not that he can't change it again, but if he does, I'd like him to continue evolving his style, you know ?

----------


## Sergard

Greg Hopwood (Costume Concept Artist for The Boys, Titans, Doom Patrol, and Superman & Lois)  had posted a final fitting look of the Red Hood costume on Instagram (Bleeding Cool news article). The original post was deleted but I could find a screenshot on Twitter.

The helmet looks smaller compared to the promo photo. But maybe that's just the weird angle from below.






Some off-topic notes because I know some people in this thread will be interested in the following:

1) According to the April solicitations, Artemis is going to appear in Sensational Wonder Woman#2. But the solicitation sounds very bland. Looking at the covers (Artemis is on the main and the variant cover together with Diana), Artemis is back to her Rebirth look. Mistress is there too, altough the axe looks small.




> written by ANDREA SHEA
> art and cover by BRUNO REDONDO
> variant cover by JOSHUA "SWAY" SWABY
> ON SALE 4/6/21
> $3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC
> DIGITAL FIRST
> Wonder Woman receives a distress call from Artemison Warworld! In order to escape Mongul's clutches, the two Amazons will have to put aside their differences and find a way to work together.


2) Batman: Urban Legends #2 has a second variant cover with Katana. I just wanted to point it out. I personally was confused at first because I only new about the Red Hood/Grifter cover and felt like the Outsiders story wasn't treated "fairly" regarding cover space.

3) It looks like Chip Zdarsky is going to team up with Michael Walsh for an Image comic, probably something with zombies. (source: Twitter) I don't know if this means anything for Chip Zdarsky's work/s for DC.

----------


## Arsenal

Before Jason permanently moves on to a new costume, I do hope whoever’s writing him offers insight on why (in universe) the choice was made (both to the new outfit and why he’s moving on to a new one). It’s no big deal if that doesn’t happen, it’s just a personal preference. 

Since Zdarsky has Jason & Bruce at odds to some degree over him (seemingly) killing somebody, I hope he uses it to bring some closure to RHATO 25. Or just some of the overall issues in their relationship in general. Having them actually confront and address these issues on the page would be nice.  
 a call back to issue 25 so we can get some proper closure to that.

----------


## Rise

> Oh, man, that reconciliation in the diner was really weird, yeah. Out of nowhere and rushed, it diminished whatever significance Bruce's awful demeanor against Jason might have had in the short or long run (to then return to a more hostile environment during the Prince of Gotham arc). Regarding TTJ, I honestly liked how Batman wasn't his usual self regarding Jason's M.O., how he tried to be understanding and rational about where he's coming from (which was extra needed considering who the three of them were dealing with in this story). So yeah, it was dissapointing to see what was ultimately made of that, the ending wasn't great for Jason as a whole. Had forgotten about Leviathan lmao.
> 
> In any case, I love Batman. I'd say he's my favourite character in comics (even if I feel more strong opinions regarding Jason, also a favourite of mine). While greatly helped by some great stories, supporting characters and rogues, Bruce's the biggest reason why Gotham-related stories are my favourite, along with X-Men ones. So it's frustrating when they can't get his relationship with Jason to a place beyond the usual surface-level dynamics that dwell on the same thing over and over with, as you said, no logical or cathartic conclusion. 
> 
> I have little hope that Urban Legends will mean a change in their status quo, but it's cool to dream. At least, judging the writer, it'll finally be a story I like (most likely).
> 
> At the end of the day, I* guess it's a narrative lack of interest, both by DC and writers who either don't really care much for the relationship/Jason or, imo, simply don't have enough nuance or solid ideas to pull something off*, which is what happened in his ongoing.


I think it's pretty much this plus not many writers dare to call out Batman on his bs which you need to if you want to write about their relationship and what happened between them. As long as writers aren't willing to address Batman's mistakes with Jason, we will not get a nuanced take on them.

And that's not just on the writers, some fans seem to hate when their favourites have flawless and then they pretend that they like characters to be three-dimensional.

----------


## Sergard

> Before Jason permanently moves on to a new costume, I do hope whoever's writing him *offers insight on why (in universe) the choice was made* (both to the new outfit and why he's moving on to a new one). It's no big deal if that doesn't happen, it's just a personal preference.


I'd like that too. It doesn't even have to be something incredibly deep or complex. Jason's outfits are foremost practical. The current outfit is practical as a road trip costume when Jason has to travel light or needs to have a costume that he can hide easily. Without the mask, the logo, gloves and bandages it even looks like something a civilian could wear (I personally prefer costumes that incorporate some "normal" clothes compared to the classic skintight bodysuit with optional cape). But it's not a practical outfit when he has to investigate a drug case in a city where he has to consider that he'll probably encounter many armed criminals and/or have to fight in narrow spaces. Jason is showing way too much unprotected skin.




> Since Zdarsky has Jason & Bruce at odds to some degree over him (seemingly) killing somebody, I hope he uses it to bring some closure to RHATO 25. Or just some of the overall issues in their relationship in general. Having them actually confront and address these issues on the page would be nice.  
>  a call back to issue 25 so we can get some proper closure to that.


Doubtful for more than one reason:
a) Zdarsky is a Batman fan. If anybody is going to look good at the end of the story, it will be Bruce.
b) Zdarsky probably doesn't even know about RHatO #25.
c) RHatO #25 isn't even Top 5 of awful things Bruce has done to Jason. Or Top 10 of awful stuff Jason had to endure thanks to the bat cult. I'd like to have closure for a lot of stuff. But so far DC has done the following in the last 30+ years: Ignored it, acted like there is no problem or even doubled down on some of the most horrendous parts.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> In Batman Incorporated, Jason gave Talia a chance to walk away because he owes her. She didn't and was shot by Kathy. After that they haven't interacted again as far as I know.


Which was just a waste.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I was thinking... Tim doesn't seem to have anything going for him either yet.
> 
> Guys, what if they put both reds in a buddy cop book? Not going to happen, but... what ifff...
> 
> (Again, sorry for all this double posting)


Sorry, but no. That would only water down Jason as character and his stories. Jason needs more nuanced and darker stories, and Tim is a goody goody. Nope, sorry.

Only Bat Family member that works with Jason, imo, is Cassandra Cain.

----------


## TooFlyToFail

> I'd put money on Jason being the Deathstroke look-alike on that Robin cover of Damian's series next to Rose. Williamson is writing Jason and Rose together in Future State, and it isn't a stretch to have Jason get involved in some Talia/League of Assassins stuff. He feels like the most likely candidate.


Better anything he's done in years, honestly.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Sorry, but no. That would only water down Jason as character and his stories. Jason needs more nuanced and darker stories, and Tim is a goody goody. Nope, sorry.
> 
> Only Bat Family member that works with Jason, imo, is* Cassandra Cain*.


Honestly, wouldn't mind an Elseworld series where Jason is Robin and Cass is Batgirl at the same time, as Pre-Flashpoint, they were practically the same age. Not calling for a ship at all, just a team up.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Sorry, but no. That would only water down Jason as character and his stories. Jason needs more nuanced and *darker stories*, and Tim is a goody goody. Nope, sorry.
> 
> Only Bat Family member that works with Jason, imo, is Cassandra Cain.


Nonsense, Jason is a strong enough character to have all kinds of stories, and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of having him stuck always on the same angsty stories where he's the misunderstood, edgy, black-sheep of the family. 

I don't think that Cassandra brings something really worthwhile to the table far as interacting with Jason goes, they too similar to have a compelling interaction and it would get old fast. Is the contrast between the characters what makes the relationships work, that is why both Outlaws teams worked so well since all of the played each other in interesting and compelling ways. In that same vein, is why Tim and Jason's bromance also works really well since they are great foils for each other and complement each other in ways they can't get from Dick and Damian.

----------


## Bad Witch

> Nonsense, Jason is a strong enough character to have all kinds of stories, and quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of having him stuck always on the same angsty stories where he's the misunderstood, edgy, black-sheep of the family. 
> 
> I don't think that Cassandra brings something really worthwhile to the table far as interacting with Jason goes, they too similar to have a compelling interaction and it would get old fast. Is the contrast between the characters what makes the relationships work, that is why both Outlaws teams worked so well since all of the played each other in interesting and compelling ways. In that same vein, is why Tim and Jason's bromance also works really well since they are great foils for each other and complement each other in ways they can't get from Dick and Damian.



How would you go about doing something different with him. I'm genuinely curious?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> How would you go about doing something different with him. I'm genuinely curious?


Well, the mythical and space adventures angles used by Lobdell are already a great example. But generally, I'd have Jason as a globe-trotting adventurer on small, self-contained adventures that change according to the setting and location. I'm spitballing here but something like one adventure takes him to the deep jungles of Mexico where he gets involved with a tribe of Mayans trying to bring forth a demon/god to destroy the world. Another takes him to Rusia where he comes to blows with the Russian Mafia, then he goes to Japan and has to fight onis, and so on.

EDIT:





> [ Todd ]
> 
> Seeing red again


https://twitter.com/NikolaCizmesija/...84666032885762

----------


## Sergard

> Sorry, but no. That would only water down Jason as character and his stories. Jason needs more nuanced and darker stories, and Tim is a goody goody. Nope, sorry.
> 
> Only Bat Family member that works with Jason, imo, is Cassandra Cain.


Isn't Cass an even bigger "goody goody" than Tim? Cass has teared off the bat logo from Batwoman's chest after Kate "killed" Clayface. The story is bad and makes Cass look like a maniac that's obsessed with a stupid symbol  - but it's a theme that I feel somehow reoccurred in other stories too. 

To be honest, I wouldn't even call Tim a "goody goody". He's "good" - but so is Jason. They are just "good" in different ways.

----------


## Pohzee

I'm obviously biased here, but I think Dick's color scheme compliments Jason's (black with red/blue logo) and they seeming fall on opposite sides of Batman's graces. That to me would be the most interesting contrast and dynamic for Jason to have IMO, even though I'm not too sure I really want to see it. Jason imo is treated more on equal standing to Dick than Tim anyway with his degree of respect and independence.

----------


## Zaresh

> Isn't Cass an even bigger "goody goody" than Tim? Cass has teared off the bat logo from Batwoman's chest after Kate "killed" Clayface. The story is bad and makes Cass look like a maniac that's obsessed with a stupid symbol  - but it's a theme that I feel somehow reoccurred in other stories too. 
> 
> To be honest, I wouldn't even call Tim a "goody goody". He's "good" - but so is Jason. They are just "good" in different ways.


I think she was less... radical and more, hum, grey I guess? Before New 52. I could be wrong, but as far as I've understood by people's comments and stuff, she was.

But then, Tim was more practical and less of an idealist before New 52 too, so...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I'm obviously biased here, but I think Dick's color scheme compliments Jason's (black with red/blue logo) and they seeming fall on opposite sides of Batman's graces. That to me would be the most interesting contrast and dynamic for Jason to have IMO, even though I'm not too sure I really want to see it. Jason imo is treated more on equal standing to Dick than Tim anyway with his degree of respect and independence.


That mentality is what led to editorial to try and turn Jason into Dick's Joker just before the reboot, so is not a dynamic I want to see ever again.

----------


## Zaresh

> That mentality is what led to editorial to try and turn Jason into Dick's Joker just before the reboot, so is not a dynamic I want to see ever again.


I don't like it either.
You can make the colour contrast work without such implications. You can also make a contrasting dynamic without playing the golden boy and the fallen angel too. Plenty of then, actually.
And simplifying both characters personalities and morals and struggles to such archetypes is a disservice to both Jason's and Dick's actual character stories.

(this one is the edited part) Also. Red is a colour that is used or was used prominently as a theme by Tim and Kate too. (3rd edition: I mean, I don't think it could work for any of them. But hey, there you have a colour contrast between red robin and superboy, with red and blue, actually)

----------


## Pohzee

> That mentality is what led to editorial to try and turn Jason into Dick's Joker just before the reboot, so is not a dynamic I want to see ever again.


I think you can contrast them as equals and both be on the side of good. It doesn't necessarily have to play out that same way.




> I don't like it either.
> You can make the colour contrast work without such implications. You can also make a contrasting dynamic without playing the golden boy and the fallen angel too. Plenty of then, actually.
> And simplifying both characters personalities and morals and struggles to such archetypes is a disservice to both Jason's and Dick's actual character stories.


I definitely agree with you there. I generally don't like Robin-Robin interactions for that reason. It just sounds like a slam dunk premise. Good looking, straightforward, very easy to understand.

----------


## Sergard

Speaking of blue and red: Jason would look cool in a dark blue jacket that compliments the red helmet. I hope the next costume will have a little  more daring color scheme. The Rebirth costume had some weird mixture - but weird in a good and surprising way. I would never have believed how well red, brown and blue-grey can go together.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Personally, I would love if they used the awesome jacket he was using in Lobdell's last issue

----------


## Zaresh

> Personally, I would love if they used the awesome jacket he was using in Lobdell's last issue


At least we know that the black and red three-piece suit stays. Look at that panel up in the right: it's there too.
I like the jacket. I would like it a darker shade of blue grey, but it's a cool jacket.

----------


## Restingvoice

white and red reminds me of the Arkham Knight hooded jacket but I like this one better

----------


## km_sus

As long as he gets out of that god damned Mortal Kombat outfit I'm good. Seriously, who's bright idea was it to design an outfit that _doesn't_ include his signature red helmet... cmon!

----------


## Hannibal

I kind of like the new outfit, but the old one with the Red Hood is the best one, period.

With that said, i love Red Hood when he is the Punisher from DC. By killing when he wants, no mercy, no rules, violence and blood. No rubber bullets, sedative bullets or whatever bullshit. He got is new outfit at the same time he acted like Punisher once again in Lobdell’s run. Maybe that’s why i like the new one lol.

In Urban legends, i’m happy because Red Hood looks to be doing Red Hood things with violence and killing! No rules!

----------


## Zaresh

> I kind of like the new outfit, but the old one with the Red Hood is the best one, period.
> 
> With that said, i love Red Hood when he is the Punisher from DC. By killing when he wants, no mercy, no rules, violence and blood. No rubber bullets, sedative bullets or whatever bullshit. He got is new outfit at the same time he acted like Punisher once again in Lobdell’s run. Maybe that’s why i like the new one lol.
> 
> In Urban legends, i’m happy because Red Hood looks to be doing Red Hood things with violence and killing! No rules!


But he has shown mercy, several times. He just doesn't uses/gives/shows it to real, dangerous scumbags. But he has given second chances before.

He's not Frank. He's Kaine Parker.
He can be violent, brutal, but he's focused and with a purpose. And he can relly on more than violence to achieve his goal.

(My English sucks. What's the right verb that goes with mercy? Whatever, I hope you get my point :_D)

Edit: I mean, balance is key. And Jason has his own charm that doesn't rely in just being a vigilante who kills. It's good if you like thar aspect, but I always fear when people mention Punisher and mention Jason. Same as Frank has stuff going on for him that has nothing to do with Jason's stuff.

----------


## CorDaytona

Random question: would you be for/against a change (not knowing how long it'll last) in his weapons of choice? 

Since he's an expert marksman, he's been seen handling different firearms, but the dual guns are his most iconic, mainstay weapons. I didn't love Arkham Knight (still a nice game) or what they did with Jason, but the guns combining to create a sniper rifle was really cool. Also, that part of the game has one of his best looks imo. The actual RH outfit (in the DLC) sucks.

On that account, what's your preferred melee weapon? Right now, he's got a katana and, uh, a crowbar. I kinda like the combat knife in UtRH myself. 

I wonder about Gotham Knights. Iirc, they said every character (even namedropping RH) has their own melee weapon, so... He's seen punching and wrestling goons in the trailer, in any case.

----------


## Zaresh

> Random question: would you be for/against a change (not knowing how long it'll last) in his weapons of choice? 
> 
> Since he's an expert marksman, he's been seen handling different firearms, but the dual guns are his most iconic, mainstay weapons. I didn't love Arkham Knight (still a nice game) or what they did with Jason, but the guns combining to create a sniper rifle was really cool. Also, that part of the game has one of his best looks imo. The actual RH outfit (in the DLC) sucks.
> 
> On that account, what's your preferred melee weapon? Right now, he's got a katana and, uh, a crowbar. I kinda like the combat knife in UtRH myself. 
> 
> I wonder about Gotham Knights. Iirc, they said every character (even namedropping RH) has their own melee weapon, so... He's seen punching and wrestling goons in the trailer, in any case.


Swords and knives for me. And the bazoka.
Ah, the rifle in AK was really, really cool. I also love the actual AK suit, but, it's already taken in the main DCU so...

----------


## CorDaytona

> Swords and knives for me. And the bazoka.
> Ah, the rifle in AK was really, really cool. I also love the actual AK suit, but, it's already taken in the main DCU so...


Red Hood with a bazooka always works. I see you.

And oh, I also love the AK outfit! It's indeed cool it made it into the main continuity. I was talking about the outfit he gets in the DLC, canonically set after the ending and when he becomes Red Hood. It never had a chance with me, I guess I'm that against constantly up hoodies and non-streamlined body shapes lol. He looks too chunky, I feel.

----------


## Zaresh

> Red Hood with a bazooka always works. I see you.
> 
> And oh, I also love the AK outfit! It's indeed cool it made it into the main continuity. I was talking about the outfit he gets in the DLC, canonically set after the ending and when he becomes Red Hood. It never had a chance with me, I guess I'm that against constantly up hoodies and non-streamlined body shapes lol. He looks too chunky, I feel.


The one in the DLC has too much white for me, but besides that, it's a suit that makes sense for him in the game. He's not militia anymore, he's some young, urban vigilante that works by himself. The concept is fitting for his background, I guess.

----------


## Aahz

I would prefer the knife, I don't think there are many other characters that use one as primary weapon, and melee fight scenes are just cooler than using guns.

----------


## Jackalope89

Keep the pistols, but with the Transformers option where they combine into a rifle. Pistols for short-medium range, and rifle for long range.

Melee, knife AND katana (with All-Blades for otherworldly evil, of course). Knife is the ace up his sleeve.

----------


## Sergard

Preview for Future State: Dark Detective (2021-2021) #2 is out.

----------


## Arsenal

I wouldn't mind Jason's primary melee weapon essentially being a swiss army knife on steroids. Something that allows him to constantly switch the type of weapon he's using mid combat could make for some really great sequences under the right artists.

----------


## Restingvoice

Oh he's sleeping with someone. Didn't even notice.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Oh he's sleeping with someone. Didn't even notice.


Either some rando for this setting, or Rose are my bets. The hair being light in color makes me lean towards Rose, but that's all I got for it.

----------


## Arsenal

It’s probably Rose.

----------


## Sergard

Definitely looks like Rose.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

My interest in Future State was already low but now I simply can't be bothered about it. But I'm going to be really pissed if Magistrate 01 is the reason they haven't given Jason his helmet back.

----------


## Jackalope89

> My interest in Future State was already low but now I simply can't be bothered about it. But I'm going to be really pissed if Magistrate 01 is the reason they haven't given Jason his helmet back.


I'm not overly hung up on his outfit, just the overall tone of Future State. And honestly, the only character I've seen that got an overall positive reception was the Brazilian Wonder Woman (name escapes me right now).

----------


## Sergard

> Keep the pistols, but with the Transformers option where they combine into a rifle. Pistols for short-medium range, and rifle for long range.
> 
> Melee, knife AND katana (with All-Blades for otherworldly evil, of course). *Knife is the ace up his sleeve*.


Knives are so underrated in the DC universe. Knives are also weapons that I associate with thieves and assassins. Considering that Jason was a thief and was trained by assassin monks, knives really fit his character. Personally, I would like to see a bigger variety of weapons, not just guns and swords. Future State as a whole looks like a pile of nothing, but Jason's weapon (a kusarigama) - and of course the bike - looks cool.

Fun fact: The first time Jason used a kusarigama was in Batman #413 as Robin. Speaking of Batman #413, a naginata would also be a nice weapon. It's probably difficult to create a story where Jason has to fight with it but theoretically, he could still own one and train with it.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Definitely looks like Rose.


Mmm... bike...
Sorry I don't know why, it's already in the preview, but somehow I like the shape of it from the side

----------


## Sergard

nick_naysayer

_"Red Hood #52 Alternate Ending"_

----------


## Sergard

We are never going to learn what's inside this box, right? Just like the other one.

Jason Peter Todd, collector of
a) books
b) ancient weapons
c) outcasts
d) mystery boxes

----------


## Jackalope89

> We are never going to learn what's inside this box, right? Just like the other one.
> 
> Jason Peter Todd, collector of
> a) books
> b) ancient weapons
> c) outcasts
> d) mystery boxes


Now that fan comic is far better than what happened for the ending. Though the author seems to have forgotten that Alfred is pretty dead right now.

----------


## sifighter

> I'm not overly hung up on his outfit, just the overall tone of Future State. And honestly, the only character I've seen that got an overall positive reception was the Brazilian Wonder Woman (name escapes me right now).


Personally I prefer this Akira-esque look over his current Mortal Kombat looking one.

----------


## Sergard

> Now that fan comic is far better than what happened for the ending. Though the author seems to have forgotten that Alfred is pretty dead right now.


The fan comic is very meta. But I 110% share the sentiment of the artist.

Is Alfred still dead?

----------


## Zaresh

> The fan comic is very meta. But I 110% share the sentiment of the artist.
> 
> Is Alfred still dead?


I think he still is, but apparently a lot of characters came back because of Metal's consequences when it ended. Some people were wondering how they're going to bring him back (him and Roy).

----------


## AmiMizuno

It could just be somewhat he was never dead. That time somewhat reset. What do you guys think about this whole the Batfam are going to be closer. Does that make Jason less interesting?

----------


## Jackalope89

> It could just be somewhat he was never dead. That time somewhat reset. What do you guys think about this whole the Batfam are going to be closer. Does that make Jason less interesting?


The way Jason died and came back (I prefer the pre-Flahpoint version) is what sets him apart.

----------


## Sergard

I've read Future State Red Hood.
a) Why can't DC leave Jason's hair color alone?
b) Joshua Williamson should be forbidden to ever write Rose Wilson again.

----------


## Trt-R5

Please tell me he isn't ginger again...

----------


## Sergard

> Please tell me he isn't ginger again...


The story didn't specify it. Here's the panel.

----------


## Morgoth

> Joshua Williamson should be forbidden to ever write Rose Wilson again.


And she's going to appear in his Robin series.
I just hope she won't be like this there.

----------


## Trt-R5

Yeah, I've also read it since then. I'm hoping it's just the white streak. Specially because in one of the bar scene it looks like the front of his hair is colored a little differently.
I hate the ginger thing, so here's hoping that's not it. 
About Rose, I haven' t really read anything with her besides priest's deathstroke so I don't know that much about the character to know if it's out of character or not. I'm just hoping for a good red hood story, since, at least for now, Williamson and zdarsky are the most probable writers to take on Jason in an eventual Red hood comic

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Future State Red Hood was bad. And I already had lowered my expectations.

----------


## Denirac

It seems in Future State, Jason has realised that relationships are temporary, but work is forever.

----------


## CorDaytona

Idk, I enjoyed it. Even if FS is half-assed and only superficially interesting and this story is gonna be as inconsequential as The Hill arc (not much you can do in two issues), it's refreshing compared to the Lobdell issues, which I would have welcomed even if I were a fan of those. I like his biker jacket and the kusarigama being his weapon of choice.

I also wonder if the dyeing comment is in reference to him having a white streak. Or maybe he's just greying; he's getting older after all, even if it's only been 5 years (I think?).

----------


## Denirac

> Idk, I enjoyed it. Even if FS is half-assed and only superficially interesting and this story is gonna be as inconsequential as The Hill arc (not much you can do in two issues), it's refreshing compared to the Lobdell issues, which I would have welcomed even if I were a fan of those. I like his biker jacket and the kusarigama being his weapon of choice.
> 
> I also wonder if the dyeing comment is in reference to him having a white streak. Or maybe he's just greying; he's getting older after all, even if it's only been 5 years (I think?).


I agree, I've been enjoying Future State more than I thought I would. 

And Yeah, this is set in 2025, could be about his white streak

----------


## km_sus

Do you guys like Jason/Rose as a pairing? I honestly don't know where it came from and reading them just made me miss Artemis.

----------


## Wingin' It

> I agree, I've been enjoying Future State more than I thought I would. 
> 
> And Yeah, this is set in 2025, could be about his white streak


It's 2025, Jason wouldn't even be 30 years old. It was obvious to me reading it that the "hair dye" comment was made in response to Jason's reluctance around Rose's more lethal approach, and Rose implying he's trying to be something he's not.

----------


## sifighter

> Do you guys like Jason/Rose as a pairing? I honestly don't know where it came from and reading them just made me miss Artemis.


I’m okay with it, it’s a lot better then the Barbara idea if I’m honest. I don’t know, superhero relationships can feel random at times for those that haven’t lasted decades like Superman & Lois, Batman & Catwoman, Green Arrow & Black Canary, and etc. I mean come on Hawkgirl is dating Martian Manhunter right now.

Honestly it makes sense in that they have a lot of similarities in bad father figures and generally run in the same circles.

----------


## Wingin' It

> Do you guys like Jason/Rose as a pairing? I honestly don't know where it came from and reading them just made me miss Artemis.


I'm not opposed on principle but I wasn't sold on the relationship. Rose was not written particularly well here. If she's so violent and unreliable, why does Jason work with her in the field, let alone sleep with her? It seems like he barely even liked her and was actually annoyed by her presence.  Even if he's only casually sleeping with her, it doesn't seem like she sees it that way, and we have no idea what Jason sees in her.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Any pairing can work if is written well but in this case, it wasn't.

The whole thing just felt awfully amateurish, Jason and Rose reduced to the bare minimum characterization. Jason's reduced to pretty much just grunting for half of the issue and acting like a stoic "badass" while Rose is acting like an overly clingy girlfriend that is more irritating than endearing. Assuming that Williamson was even trying to sell the pairing because it feels like it was tacked on just to pander to the TV show fans.

The comment about Dye is just one of Williamson's classic continuity nods that he loves to use on all of his stories but this fell flat on its face, it lacks any proper context and comes as completely nonsensical only really working to get fans discussion about what it means.

----------


## Zaresh

> Do you guys like Jason/Rose as a pairing? I honestly don't know where it came from and reading them just made me miss Artemis.


I don't like it. She's not a good pairing for him, and he's not a good paring for her. Their own issues and baggage are a recipe for cheap melodrama and mutual harm. Also, she has her own love interest, if I recall and Jason isn't her type, as far as I've seen. Neither is Rose Jason's I think, even if she's a badass. And then there's the thing about her not caring much about hurting people, any kind of people, or worse. At least when she's psychotic. She can be worse than Jason.

And then, there's the thing about me thinking that this pairing is just based on some nonsense sense of... Like "oh, wouldn't it be cool if these two INTENSE! characters were involved?" Which, isn't fair for any of them both. And pretty shalllow. For a one time thing? Ok. For a regular ship... eh. I'm off this train.

But this is just my opinion.

----------


## Rise

Eh? What's Jason's type? He is a fictional in superheroe comics where characterisation differ from one writer to another. 

As for today's issue, it's nothing less expected from Williamson (who I still don't understand the hype about him). It's not bad, but it's not great either. It's just decent.

----------


## Jackalope89

The Rose/Jason thing has roots going back to pre-Flashpoint. But other than a hint here and a mention there, it really never amounted to much. It was the Titans show that actually did something with it, temporary that it was. 

This though... As much of a Jason fan I am, _nothing_ in Future State has interested me. In fact, if anything, it killed my interest in a lot of stuff.

----------


## Jackalope89

And now I've read it... Yep. Not a fan. And the art sucks.

----------


## Zaresh

> Eh? What's Jason's type? He is a fictional in superheroe comics where characterisation differ from one writer to another. 
> 
> As for today's issue, it's nothing less expected from Williamson (who I still don't understand the hype about him). It's not bad, but it's not great either. It's just decent.


You know, even when we're talking about fictional characters, there's sometimes common traits that a love interest shares with previous ones. And the readers take it as a type they like. It's not so weird or, I don't know, unrealistic. It works under the same mechanisms that make a reader say "that's out of character" when a character does something he wouldn't do as he was written previously. When you write a character, you build it, give it a characterization, a personality, likes and dislikes. You write it certain way.  Because you want readers to symphatize (or not) with him. That process often includes love interests. And the same can be said from the reader's point of view. Even under several hands, you build an image of a character that makes sense. It's how we "know" that Clint Barton likes women who set him straight and can beat his ass somehow. Or why Dick is said to like redheads. For Jason, are badass, strong, bold women. But I think he tends to like honest, kinder ones. Si far, several shared those traits, I think.

Edit: haven't read the issue, btw. So I can't say anything about it. But the preview looked ok.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That's definitely a trend with the way his love interests have been written, I also might add "They don't take any of his bullshit" to the list. So yeah, Rose is pretty shallow as LI and is somewhat acknowledged by Williamson when her only argument to be together is "DADDY ISSUES". Even when Lobdell considered bringing Rose into the Outlaws it was more due to fans asking for it than a legitimate interest in exploring the relationship. This type of writing about doing stuff just to pander to the fans is the exact same approach that got me sick of Tynion's writing since is impossible to please everyone and in my experience, blatant fan pandering never works.

----------


## KrustyKid

> I don't like it. She's not a good pairing for him, and he's not a good paring for her. Their own issues and baggage are a recipe for cheap melodrama and mutual harm. Also, she has her own love interest, if I recall and Jason isn't her type, as far as I've seen. Neither is Rose Jason's I think, even if she's a badass. And then there's the thing about her not caring much about hurting people, any kind of people, or worse. At least when she's psychotic. She can be worse than Jason.
> 
> And then, there's the thing about me thinking that this pairing is just based on some nonsense sense of... Like "oh, wouldn't it be cool if these two INTENSE! characters were involved?" Which, isn't fair for any of them both. And pretty shalllow. For a one time thing? Ok. For a regular ship... eh. I'm off this train.
> 
> But this is just my opinion.


My thoughts exact, they don't make for a good foil. Artemis plays off of Jason much better, so do a few others that come to my mind at the top of my head.

----------


## Rise

> You know, even when we're talking about fictional characters, there's sometimes common traits that a love interest shares with previous ones. And the readers take it as a type they like. It's not so weird or, I don't know, unrealistic. It works under the same mechanisms that make a reader say "that's out of character" when a character does something he wouldn't do as he was written previously. When you write a character, you build it, give it a characterization, a personality, likes and dislikes. You write it certain way.  Because you want readers to symphatize (or not) with him. That process often includes love interests. And the same can be said from the reader's point of view. Even under several hands, you build an image of a character that makes sense. It's how we "know" that Clint Barton likes women who set him straight and can beat his ass somehow. Or why Dick is said to like redheads. For Jason, are badass, strong, bold women. But I think he tends to like honest, kinder ones. Si far, several shared those traits, I think.
> 
> Edit: haven't read the issue, btw. So I can't say anything about it. But the preview looked ok.


Re-read my post, Zaresh. I meant fictional characters _in superhero comics_ (meaning DC and Marvel). These characters don't really have type despite what some fans claim because any character can be a potential love interest whenever any writer decide so (after all, who the heck expected Artemis as love interest for Jason before Rebirth?).

There's no consistency in these comics because each writer have their own style and take on these characters.

----------


## Zaresh

> Re-read my post, Zaresh. I meant fictional characters _in superhero comics_ (meaning DC and Marvel). These characters don't really have type despite what some fans claim because any character can be a potential love interest whenever any writer decide so (after all, who the heck expected Artemis as love interest for Jason before Rebirth?).
> 
> There's no consistency in these comics because each writer have their own style and take on these characters.


Oh.
Well, I see your point. I still think you can get some sense of consistency _sometimes_ (it does rely on the reader entirely. Close to what headcanon is, I guess), but, that's definitely a really good point.

And then, Dark is also right in that it doesn't matter much who they're paired if it is well written.
Hmm... I probably should stop making these almost headcanons.
Most probably.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Re-read my post, Zaresh. I meant fictional characters _in superhero comics_ (meaning DC and Marvel). These characters don't really have type despite what some fans claim because any character can be a potential love interest whenever any writer decide so (after all, who the heck expected Artemis as love interest for Jason before Rebirth?).
> 
> There's no consistency in these comics because each writer have their own style and take on these characters.


One consistent thing about Jason and the women he tends to hang around with/be on good terms with is that they tend to be, forgive the cliche saying, strong, independent, women. Not necessarily super powered or love interest, but the ones he tends to be around the most. Like Talia in New52, Donna in NTT and Countdown to Crisis, Supergirl during their team-ups (wouldn't mind seeing those two interact more), Artemis (duh), and while more minor, Rose in a few interactions prior to this.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Re-read my post, Zaresh. I meant fictional characters _in superhero comics_ (meaning DC and Marvel). These characters don't really have type despite what some fans claim because any character can be a potential love interest whenever any writer decide so (after all, who the heck expected Artemis as love interest for Jason before Rebirth?).
> 
> There's no consistency in these comics because each writer have their own style and take on these characters.


When written well, characters do implicitly have a type since is based on their interactions with other characters. Just look at Spiderman and his numerous love interests over the years, or all the outcry that happened when WW and Superman hooked up during the N52. The argument about inconsistency _might_ be valid if the writer that gave to Jason all of his love interests wasn't the same that wrote him for nearly a decade. Furthermore, even the Artemis ship came precisely from the chemistry that Lobdell unintentionally gave to their interactions and that once again, followed the patter he already established for Isabel and Essence.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I'm still mad that this costume was just a variant.

----------


## Lal

> I wonder if Jason will do anything besides just standing there looking all mysterious. From what Weisman said back when the show was cancelled, I was expecting for him to at the very least be an active player by now.


It's possible he'll become more prominent in Dick's arc.

----------


## Blue22

> There's this, at least:
> Attachment 115055


Good God, I still hate everything about that. Give me my Mortal Kombat look back -____-




> As for melee weapons, I personally quite like the kusarigama he uses in Future State.


I'm all for giving Jason more supernatural adventures just so he has an excuse to use the All-Blade. He still has those, right?

Jason Todd: Supernatural Bounty Hunter. Make it happen XD

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's possible he'll become more prominent in Dick's arc.


mabey, this seems to be the assassins arc tho, I think it be now or never. Jason has not recovered/broken free after a whole year since the last season

Dick mabey, I'm a little suprised to not see him with the rest of the street level heroes right now. Only Tim and and Dick are not present. They could be involved with Batman in gotham, which can lead to an infinite amount of directions. He might be leading a mission in Bialya for all we know

4            4            4              4            4           4     2
MM SB    Artemis   Zatanna    

Aqualad
Nightwing 
Rocket

Plot wrap up

----------


## RedBird

> His logic for using Jason is also pretty poor *although is somewhat refreshing to know editorial does consider Jason a character that sells books.*


That section caught my eye too. 
Carrying several books and yet, has never had a solo. I know I harp on about it, and I get it, a solo won't solve everything, and knowing DC it might end up terrible anyway, but it's still kind of a strange position for a decently popular bat character to be in.




> Not a fan of Campi's work nor the pretty blatant thirst Robles shows when drawing Jason, so I'm glad that DC passed on their pitch.


I haven't seen enough of Campi's work to make a judgement, but in the case of Robles, eh, I see plenty of comic artists create 'thirsty' fan art, whilst still managing to draw the characters more appropriately for official comics so that's a non issue for me. It's only the last few years that he has created more 'pinup' fanart of the character at the request of fans, and as we saw recently, even at the request of DC themselves. Otherwise, most of Robles earlier pieces for Jason were classic typical portraits or action poses. He's capable of both XD. What I enjoy from Robles, is that he's an artist with a versatile style and whilst his highly rendered works could probably only be fitting for covers (I imagine they take up a lot of time to create) I think what I'd love to see from him is some kind of Black Label series using his more detailed and moody ink illustrations such as in 'The Knight series' he created for Drawtober: https://twitter.com/ArtofNickRobles/...89749328678920 That would look neat.

Dexter Soy is of course another artist I'd love to see on another Jason led series, though I think he is currently busy with his own book that was just announced, Shigeru: curse of the blood god. https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...71315872972803





> I wonder if Jason will do anything besides just standing there looking all mysterious. From what Weisman said back when the show was cancelled, I was expecting for him to at the very least be an active player by now.


I know right. I don't mind shows taking their time to develop plot points, but they already were teasing this reveal a season ago. It's gonna be disappointing and kill a lot of momentum if nothing happens with this particular narrative thread this season.




> I'm all for giving Jason more supernatural adventures just so he has an excuse to use the All-Blade. He still has those, right?
> 
> Jason Todd: Supernatural Bounty Hunter. Make it happen XD





> As for melee weapons, I personally quite like the kusarigama he uses in Future State.


The Kusarigama, the All Blades, the Kris dagger, almost anything but the damn crowbar would have been more appropriate.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Dexter Soy is of course another artist I'd love to see on another Jason led series, though I think he is currently busy with his own book that was just announced, Shigeru: curse of the blood god. https://twitter.com/dextersoy/status...71315872972803


I wonder if Shigeru is a reworked Red Ronin idea.

----------


## RedBird

> I wonder if Shigeru is a reworked Red Ronin idea.


It very well could be.
Though if Soy still has any interest in pitching his Red Ronin/Jason series, then I hope the original Red Ronin idea can still be saved for a later time when DC finally come to their senses and give him a book to put all those fantastic illustrations.

----------


## RedBird

I think that's UL Jason in a teaser page from Batman 118. I'm guessing it's just a quick flashback.
https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...68846633947139

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think that's UL Jason in a teaser page from Batman 118. I'm guessing it's just a quick flashback.
> https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...68846633947139


Yeah, is referencing the Cheer story

----------


## RedBird

Here's some in progress pages for the Nightwing annual. Some Robin Jason and Discowing Dick flashbacks and a present day page. I don't mind the OG robin suit being the first 'prototype' so to speak, but I miss Jason's new52 Robin suit, I wish that was kept as a suit he at least later creates for himself.

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...d-2021-annuals

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Yeah, the N52 Robin suit was perfect.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, the N52 Robin suit was perfect.


Everyone hated it

----------


## RedBird

> Everyone hated it


Everyone hated Dicks new52 Robin suit. 
Jasons new52 Robin suit however was a way better upgrade that was basically the classic Robin suit just with added pants. It remained faithful to the OG suit in style and colour and just changed it enough to fit with modern designs. It really was perfect.

----------


## RedBird

Here's a different Red Hood logo that's featured on the Nightwing Annual. https://twitter.com/DarranMRobinson/...80846886572035

Not sure if this is permanent or just a one off. It kind of reminds me of the logo from the new film, 'The Batman'.



I do like that it features Jason's personal red Bat logo rather than the generic bat symbol that the current one has.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

While it really is nice to have the red bat, I don't like how derivative it is from The Batman logo. Hopefully is just something made to hype up the movie or something.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

I pointed out on Twitter how similar the logo was to The Batman's and the designer actually responded

https://twitter.com/DarranMRobinson/...23192148480003

He says this RH logo was designed two years ago and that The Batman is inspired by the comics. I have my doubts because Jason is nowhere as big of a name to get such influence, especially in a film where he doesn't even show but hey if the guy says it...

I then pointed out how regardless of what logo was designed first, the RH one would always be seen as aping The Batman's and how it kept the issue of Jason being seen as an extension of Bruce instead of his own character. And the designer more or less said that was sort of the point...

https://twitter.com/DarranMRobinson/...26016324341761

In other news, the preview for Titans United #3 is out and it promises to have Jason as the focus, I'm excited about it because I want to see if they will keep the promise of using the All Blades.

----------


## RedBird

Interesting. 

Not that I was too concerned about the similarities, but honestly that's a good enough answer for me. The artist seems to be responsible for a good majority of the graphic designs and logos for DC, If this design was really something conceptualised two years ago and before the Batman film logo was released, then I'm willing to take them at their word. Can't exactly fault the artist for the film makers decision to paint their version of Batman as a brutal and angry vigilante drenched in crimson. Besides, a character name with the character symbol inside is a common design layout.

Still, it's interesting to know how long this logo was in the works, this information now makes me wonder if this really is permanent. I think I might just prefer it, thanks to the use of Jasons bat symbol, the current Red Hood logo is technically more derivative anyway since it has Batman's bat in it rather than Jason's. Though I'm not sure about the 'The' placed in the R, it seems too small to notice.

And darn I almost forgot about Titans United and Future State Gotham coming out this week, both the previews look pretty promising.

----------


## CorDaytona

I quite like the logo and see no problem with it being similar to The Batman's (especially if the latter was truly informed by it and not the other way around). And, I mean, at the end of the day, the movie and its logo are going to be just one among many other live-action takes (the most exciting to me so far in any case).

----------


## Zaresh

So much Jason, I'm so happy.
I hope I can catch with it all soon enough.

----------


## Zaresh

Late, but I've finally found some time to read TFZ #1. I liked it quite a lot.
I've posted my review in the other thread, but just in case you don't want to open another tab, here it is:




> Late, but I've finally read the first issue, and I liked it a lot.
> 
> Art is really nice looking here. I'm hardly a fan of Barrows work in cape comics, but here, his style fits the mood to a T. Dark, and dirty and dynamic with all that action showing in the story. And colours are really nice looking and made it shine even more. Lettering too, was quite nice: with different styles and uses and nice placing all over the different layouts.
> 
> As for the story, I liked it a lot too. It's clear that every character have their different motivations and aims, and I think there's a slow-paced plot working on in the background. It kind of reminded me of a bit of American Gods, but lighter and with some humour. The bad guys are clearly malicious, like, in a very not subtle way, but also, it's the kind of not-subtle way that makes the reader wander how Jason is going to deal with them once he can find his feet with the absolutely murderous and uncoordinated zombie commando. Of course, the emotional struggle for Jason, besides the dilema of leaving and let them murder and torture people with these unwilling zombified criminals, or stay and risks his mental health besides his life and his own moral stands, is probably realizing that these zombies are still people, as much as himself, and unlike what Crispin-voice-boss says, they're not monsters and deserve a chance for redemption (it was the main theme running in several dialogue pieces in this issue. Redemption's one of the recurring themes for Jason, after all: has already been a theme under several writers with different approaches). I also wonder why this Crispin guy needs Jason. He's not that special (he died, sure. But besides that and being a bat...). Could've used anyone. I wonder what the writer will come with for the reason why. Some emotional manipulation based on Jason relating to the dead criminals is my guess.
> 
> It wasn't great, but still, it was fun and fast paced. I'm definitely looking forward to the next issue, and see how this story builds up issue after issue.
> 
> That being said, the dual wielding crowbars have to go forever gone. They're silly. Give him a chain, or a club, or several weapons. An axe, or something. Crowbars are very silly, honestly.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Three issues with Jason were released today: Robins #2, Titans United #3, and Future State Gotham #7. 

Titans United continues to be a simple story with no big aspirations, other than riding the hype for the Titans show and delivering an entertaining story. Characterizations are getting better as the story progresses since we see different facets of the characters, making them less one-note than they looked in the first issue. Jason is been handled surprisingly well, his aggressiveness from the first issue is toned down, he has good chemistry with both Donna and Raven (even if his banter with Donna feels lifted wholesale from his dynamic with Artemis on RHATO) and gets to have the cool moment of the issue. Unfortunately no All-Blades but it was worth the price of entry.

Future State Gotham is a mixed bag. On one hand, it let Jason get the win over the lame OC guy that was hyped as the next big thing while making Jason work for it and actually win through his wits. Jason is once again depicted as the guy trying to make amends for his past, is irritating that only Lobdell (and to a lesser degree Martinbrough) have depicted him as coming to terms with his past. But the twist at the end completely recontextualizes the story for the worse. Jason is once again played like a fiddle, walking straight into traps and we're back to square one in his relationship with Bruce. I'm baffled as to why they needed to add that twist when it doesn't add anything really worthwhile to the setting other than "raising" the stakes by introducing yet another "is all part of my plan" villain. 

Robins #2 is still taking liberties with the actual backstory of the Robins in favor of the story but those are relatively minor changes that don't impact negatively the overall story of the characters and show that Seeley does care for them. Jason's characterization is sort of a middle point between TU and FS, with a reckless Jason but one that knows how to work in a team and isn't dealing with the usual self-doubt he's being saddled with as late. The best part of the book is no doubt the banter between the Robins since the plot looks to be either a massive retcon to the lore or a huge red herring, hopefully, Seeley will be able to stick the landing but I doubt it. The biggest surprise is that seemingly Jason used the All Blades here since in one panel he's shown fixing his helmet and in the next, he's jumping into action wielding a broadsword that he pulled out from nowhere with an orange glow. 

Overall, a good week for Jason.

----------


## Blue22

I just all three current issues of Titans United. I think it's a REALLY good Titans book. Lowkey one of the best showings we've had for them since before Flashpoint (especially for Gar and Raven). It really felt like I was reading one of the older Titans books and that is 100% a good thing. 

But I'm not a big fan of how Jason is almost as immature and obnoxious as he is in the TV show. He's definitely a lot better in #3. But when you're binging these, his unlikability sticks out like a sore thumb.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

More from Dexter


Batman and Ronin



Who's better at it?

----------


## Aahz

> Future State Gotham is a mixed bag. On one hand, it let Jason get the win over the lame OC guy that was hyped as the next big thing while making Jason work for it and actually win through his wits.


I like that Jason was for a change allowed to take the bad guy down on his own, without needing to be saved by the rest of the Batfamily.
But I don't like the his usual fight strategy in this series seemed sofar to be to get beaten up untill he can pull some kind of trick...

Btw. I wondering how long this series will last, I kind of doubt that this book was really planed to last more than a year...

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Red Ronin and the Robins

Can't we get Dexter in charge of Jason?

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

An Argentinian toy reviewer got early samples of the GK RH and Nightwing figures and it confirmed that Jason only comes with the finger guns. The figure is amazing otherwise.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

https://www.deviantart.com/denism79/...Hood-896847846

This is by far my favorite design

----------


## RedBird

The preview for Task Force Z #2 is out.

Plus for anyone interested in the series, Jason appears along with the batfamily in the preview for DC vs Vampires #2.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is infuriating to see how useless and Pathetic Jason is being written in TFZ.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

February Solicits

ROBINS #4
Written by TIM SEELEY
Art and cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS
Variant cover by JEN BARTEL
$3.99 US | 32 pages | 4 of 6 | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/15/22

The Robins are splintered after the events in the graveyard. On their own and on the hunt for the distributor of the SKP Tech, the former sidekicks are on the warpath, tearing through Gotham and Blüdhaven following any and all leads. But while the Robins descend on the criminal underworld, where has Tim Drake disappeared to?

FUTURE STATE: GOTHAM #10
Written by DENNIS CULVER
Art by GIANNIS MILONOGIANNIS
Cover by SIMONE DI MEO
Variant cover by MIKE BOWDEN
$3.99 US | 32 pages | Black and White | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/8/22

Jason Todd, a.k.a. Peacekeeper Red, and Hunter Panic are helpless to do anything but watch as the new Batman battles his greatest enemy for the first time! Meanwhile, the secret villain who has been the mastermind behind everything since the beginning of Future State: Gotham makes a move that will have repercussions for the entire Bat-Family!

TASK FORCE Z #5
Written by MATTHEW ROSENBERG
Art and cover by EDDY BARROWS and EBER FERREIRA
Variant cover by FRANCESCO MATTINA
1:25 variant cover by PHILIP TAN and DANIEL HENRIQUES
$3.99 US | 32 pages | $4.99 US Variant (Card Stock)
ON SALE 2/22/22

Heads? Everyone gets eaten by a zombie. Tails? Aw, who am I kidding…everyone's going to get eaten by a zombie. It's always a trick question when Two-Face is involved…and Harvey Dent's role in this whole zombie Suicide Squad thing (zombicide? Is this a Zombicide Zquad?) is a whole lot weirder than you think it is. Or maybe not, I don't know you. What are you still reading this solicit for? Get out there and read Task Force Z!

Covers

https://www.gamesradar.com/dc-comics...solicitations/


Meh.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Finally got my hands on the McFarlane Red Hoods. By far, the best figures of Jason around, sculpting-wise at least, they don't have a lot of articulation (especially on the legs).







I'm definitely picking up the Gotham Knights and Three Jokers versions. Although the way the figures keep getting less and less accessories is pretty disappointing.

----------


## Jackalope89

...So, no comments on Task Force Z #2?

Anyway, Jason _was_ on his last foot with the group, though seeing Astrid *spoilers:*
not so dead
*end of spoilers* was different. And then came the mission. Yeah, things took a hell of a turn.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

It sucked.

Everyone's characterizations are off, the premise continues to be dumb as hell and the new character comes off as Rosenberg trying too hard.

----------


## Zaresh

> ...So, no comments on Task Force Z #2?
> 
> Anyway, Jason _was_ on his last foot with the group, though seeing Astrid *spoilers:*
> not so dead
> *end of spoilers* was different. And then came the mission. Yeah, things took a hell of a turn.


Can't read comics so often as I did, but I'll try to catch up with the newest as soon as possible.

----------


## RedBird

> ...So, no comments on Task Force Z #2?
> 
> Anyway, Jason _was_ on his last foot with the group, though seeing Astrid *spoilers:*
> not so dead
> *end of spoilers* was different. And then came the mission. Yeah, things took a hell of a turn.


I liked it, I think this issue was better than the first, now that we're getting a little more insight on the characters in the team and more information on the process for the 'zombies', and their regeneration. I'm certain that will come into play in future plot points.

Jason's voice is pretty good, although I still think the reasoning for his involvement in the project is weak, or rather borderline non existent. I'm hoping that will be cleared up in the future, that there will be something more to Jasons plan than meets the eye, cause at this point, the biggest thing holding back the series is an utter lack of stakes for it's lead. Mr. Bloom continues to bring some nice levity even if I suspect he may have more secret and nefarious intentions. I'll give points to this issue for actually making Astrid somewhat likable, considering how idiotic and unbearable she was in her introduction from Tomasi. And I feel like I really should have seen that Sundowner twist coming, there's definitely some horror movie villain vibes there with the powerset and rules. Also *spoilers:*
 with that ending, despite how adamant Jason was about not taking the serum, it looks like he will no longer have a choice in the matter.
*end of spoilers* The crowbars remain awful.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Very impressive unlicensed diorama of Jason. Includes parts to display him as the Red Ronin and the inclusion of RHATO's arm blades is a great detail.

----------


## Frontier

Preview for the upcoming Nightwing annual with Jason.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Preview for the upcoming Nightwing annual with Jason.


So, back to MK Jason. And just took out several goons to get to a mob boss it looks like.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Probably is someone impersonating Jason. We know he's wearing the Toy armor from sneak peeks posted by the artist and this "Jason" is using guns after the big deal they made with UL about Jason dropping them alongside Taylor claiming he would address why Jason is using the crowbars.

----------


## RedBird

Great. This preview presents some of the most competent and skilful actions Jason has done since this latest Infinite Frontier reboot. And (most likely) it's not even actually him.

I hope this is not going where I think it's going. I get that the rest of the batfamily would not approve, but since this is the plot of the story, being that Jason is framed, we know this is meant to be a 'bad' representation of the character regardless of which characters perspective we're seeing here. So I find it funny that DC is presenting this as some kind of 'oh no, isn't this just terrible' kind of moment, when in actuality this is what I want to see from DC for Red Hood. An actually component vigilante getting things done, and having his own view of justice.

----------


## Restingvoice

I say. That page of him shooting down from the hood of the car then jumping off is SEXY

----------


## Frontier

DC and the duality of Red Hood...

Also, Jason shows up in the latest episode of YJ and gets a line, but not too much focus. I am kind of curious when people will find out about him and how they're going to handle the Red Hood phase.

----------


## Jackalope89

> DC and the duality of Red Hood...
> 
> Also, Jason shows up in the latest episode of YJ and gets a line, but not too much focus. I am kind of curious when people will find out about him and how they're going to handle the Red Hood phase.


I'm just wondering if YJ will have its "Under the Red Hood" arc or something.

----------


## Aahz

> Great. This preview presents some of the most competent and skilful actions Jason has done since this latest Infinite Frontier reboot. And (most likely) it's not even actually him.


Yeah we still get to less competent and badass Red Hood in the comics  :Frown:

----------


## Aahz

> Also, Jason shows up in the latest episode of YJ and gets a line


What did he say?

----------


## Frontier

> What did he say?


"The Great One has arrived."

----------


## Multiverse

> "The Great One has arrived."


*spoilers:*
Correction; "The Great One will not be pleased!"  
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Frontier

> *spoilers:*
> Correction; "The Great One will not be pleased!"  
> *end of spoilers*


True enough  :Smile: .

I'm ready for flashbacks to hear Josh Keaton get to play Jason with personality.

----------


## Rac7d*

> DC and the duality of Red Hood...
> 
> Also, Jason shows up in the latest episode of YJ and gets a line, but not too much focus. I am kind of curious when people will find out about him and how they're going to handle the Red Hood phase.


they might not do it all, earth 16 is very much its own path. Honestly jason is in a good place here, despite not being free. it's not like the world hasnt seen the redhood storyline and know its beats. i feel like we have closed a chapter with infinity island as well for the season

----------


## Frontier

> they might not do it all, earth 16 is very much its own path. Honestly jason is in a good place here, despite not being free. it's not like the world hasnt seen the redhood storyline and know its beats. i feel like we have closed a chapter with infinity island as well for the season


Yeah, but that takes away probably the main thrust of Red Hood as a character.

----------


## Zaresh

I could catch up with Future State: Gotham, finally. It was, it was very good. Damn, I know how distressed I was before about Williamson's idea for the story, I was such an Idiot. It was really, really cool, and I wish he writes more Jason in the future. He's pretty fair with him, and makes him shine by himself.

----------


## Jackalope89

> I could catch up with Future State: Gotham, finally. It was, it was very good. Damn, I know how distressed I was before about Williamson's idea for the story, I was such an Idiot. It was really, really cool, and I wish he writes more Jason in the future. He's pretty fair with him, and makes him shine by himself.


Yep. Williamson has been a godsend for Jason and Damian. Jason was kind of in limbo for a while, with a big question mark on his future, and Damian had just gotten off of 2 bad TT runs, and an awful King Batman run, that just did an awful number on him. 

So, yeah. Keep Williamson going!

----------


## Rac7d*

> Yeah, but that takes away probably the main thrust of Red Hood as a character.


We don’t know how much of a character he was supposed to be at all. Just becuase he exist doesn’t mean he is getting a storyline 
There are hundred of heroes and villains in this world presently they won’t all be explored. Also this show doesn’t mind having developments off screen as well.  Also I’m sure if they did redhood storyline they would just do it in a way that makes everyone upset becuase it won’t be the same as the film comic or games.

----------


## Frontier

> We don’t know how much of a character he was supposed to be at all. Just becuase he exist doesn’t mean he is getting a storyline 
> There are hundred of heroes and villains in this world presently they won’t all be explored. Also this show doesn’t mind having developments off screen as well.  Also I’m sure if they did redhood storyline they would just do it in a way that makes everyone upset becuase it won’t be the same as the film comic or games.


I mean, they've introduced him and set up a storyline with him. It's not the audiences fault for expecting some kind of payoff.

----------


## Zaresh

I also managed to get a hold on Task Force Z #2 and I loved the hell out of it. It's a horror pulp at heart. A well written but slow building one, one full of team dynamics and action and betrayals and obscure intentions and what's not everywhere. Sure, Jason is in a hard place and is overwhelmed by everyone's stuff right now; but wait and see. This is some classic narrative at work. I freaking love it. Kind of reminds me a lot of some Iron Fist or Deadly Hands of Kung Fu and the like stories. Art is also a freaking work of art there. It fits the writing like a princess shoe.

Freaking damn happy right now.

Need to add, this feels a lot like the Doom Patrol TV show too, but with a more serious tone. There're no jokes, and they're not humorously pathetic. But they're a disaster, tragic even; and chaotic, and uncoordinated and bizarre. Jason's role is definitely more akin to Flag in Gunn's SS than anything else, though.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I mean, they've introduced him and set up a storyline with him. It's not the audiences fault for expecting some kind of payoff.


Are you also expecting a green lantern epic since we have 3 of 7 so far 
Barry Allen in the show that doesn’t mean a flashpoint storyline.

I just see a lot of people hoping for somthing that’s not promised and who will be upset when it doesn’t come.

----------


## Arsenal

I'm not expecting anything serious to come of Jason's resurrection/existence in YJ until the Damian subplot gets addressed.

----------


## RedBird

> Are you also expecting a green lantern epic since we have 3 of 7 so far 
> Barry Allen in the show that doesn’t mean a flashpoint storyline.
> 
> I just see a lot of people hoping for somthing that’s not promised and who will be upset when it doesn’t come.


People generally aren't disappointed because a glorified cameo didn't lead to an entire storyline. People are disappointed when writers try to lead their audiences on by throwing several mysterious hints and details in the narrative that don't lead anywhere.

I don't expect an UTRH rehash by any means, but if it ends here and there is no payoff what so ever, and if the show is truly meant to be open to new audiences thanks to it's deviation from comic storylines, then it shouldn't have included Jason in the universe at all. If you imagine yourself to be a completely new viewer with no knowledge of Jasons or any other dc characters existence outside the show, what would be the point in having a mysterious and deceased second robin be a fact presented in the second season, and have that character technically come back but not even make their return known to the audience whatsoever in the subsequent seasons? There's a difference between having a character visibly show up and cameo in the show, and keeping a character under wraps and hidden in plain sight over a couple seasons.

There's no point including a character in your show, if your audience isn't even aware they exist. There's a reason people's expectations have risen, and it's all thanks to the writers themselves. If Jason had just shown up as Red Hood in an episode, like just to help the YJ with a mission or something, I doubt that people would have truly expected some kind of plotline for him, (there would be fans _wanting_ one sure, but not expecting it out of the blue.)

If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there. At this point there have been several Chekhovs guns planted across the show, and it's only because the show is being so secretive and subtle about the character, whilst still hinting at a connection between him and the YJ crew, that people are now expecting some kind of payoff, again that doesn't mean an UTRH rehash, but at least some kind of reveal or resolution to this thread the showrunners decided to dangle.


Besides, if 'audience disappointment' is the concern, I doubt YJ could possibly beat Titans in terms of unsatisfactory and disappointing storylines featuring Jason  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

And as pointed out before, Weissman did say he had plans to use Red Hood in the show after its first cancellation. I'm sure I'm not the only one that expected this thread to be picked up now that the series was brought back.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

The Nightwing Annual is out and overall, is pretty much a retread of the RHATO annual from 2016, the story beats and the dynamic between Jason and Dick are very similar. But as expected, the "Jason" killing people is an imitator that is using Jason as a scapegoat, you don't need to read hard in-between lines to realize what is editorial posture on anti-hero Jason. I don't think that Jason should be killing or being on bad terms with the Batfamily to be interesting but I disagree completely with this new direction that has him glued to the hip to them. Jason needs to be away from Gotham and be his own man but sadly, it doesn't seem the editorial wants that. 

Still, the book is good and Taylor seems to understand Jason better than Rosenberg and Zdarsky do but again, I doubt he finds Jason to be interesting. His explanation for Jason using crowbars is pretty dumb and he seemingly hates it too if the way Dick mocks him is any indication.

----------


## Frontier

Because yes, Jason has a pathological fear of crowbars  :Stick Out Tongue: .

Were rubber bullets too much for people?

----------


## Rac7d*

> Because yes, Jason has a pathological fear of crowbars .
> 
> Were rubber bullets too much for people?


It the fate of anti heroes in todays market you either conform like jason or end up a prop like poison Ivy

----------


## Frontier

> It the fate of anti heroes in todays market you either conform like jason or end up a prop like poison Ivy


Which is weird because the Gotham Knights game is going full-bore with the guns.

----------


## dietrich

> 


Lmao! That panel was legit funny.

Such a dick move.

----------


## Jackalope89

The Nightwing Special wasn't bad, but yeah. The reasoning for the crowbar is shady, at best. And it was the reason I feared it would be. Outside of that bit, it wasn't bad. And it at least brought one thing around full circle.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Still, the book is good and Taylor seems to understand Jason better than Rosenberg and Zdarsky do but again, I doubt he finds Jason to be interesting. His explanation for Jason using crowbars is pretty dumb and he seemingly hates it too if the way Dick mocks him is any indication.


Yeah by that logic Batman should be dressing as a magnum

Private Investigator of The Night 

or use a gun

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yeah by that logic Batman should be dressing as a magnum
> 
> Private Investigator of The Night 
> 
> *or use a gun*


Well, he originally did. It didn't last long, but still.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

That's also why I liked Lobdell retcon for the reason Jason became the Red Hood. It was not just to overcome his fear but as another way to screw with the Joker by taking away something from him and using it for doing good.

----------


## Zaresh

I read the Nighwing annual already. It was ok. Not much subtle writing there, but I don't think it needs to be. It's better than what I've read of Taylor in Jason before, for sure. Taylor's Jason is a brawler, an acrobatic brawler, but he's definitely not the one doing detective work in this story. Or leading the investigation, or even being analytical and strategical. But alas, this is to be expected, and I guess it's fair: it's Dicks book after all. I wish it was like in Seeley's short story for Gotham Nights where they shared the investigation, but, well... Again, it's fair: it's Dicks book \o/. He leads and does most of the shinny work.

I enjoyed this read. I hold small "but"s, like revisiting again the "Jason was a violent kid because of his personal trauma", but it is again a thing that's going to be repeated now and them because that's one of his usual themes for most writers. If it wasn't really a problem for me in Cheer with Zdarsky, isn't do here either. Also, I liked how Taylor acknowledged that, for all the blame they put on Jason being brutal with his weapons, it's not like any of them are soft either. Those sticks hit hard, same as any or Bruce punches, or Damian's swords, or Tim's staff.. It was a nice nod.

At the moment, this is third place for me on the scale of "What writer I'm enjoying more writing Jason". A bit above Seeley's Robins, but below Rosenberg's and Williamson's work.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I read the Nighwing annual already. It was ok. Not much subtle writing there, but I don't think it needs to be. It's better than what I've read of Taylor in Jason before, for sure. Taylor's Jason is a brawler, an acrobatic brawler, but he's definitely not the one doing detective work in this story. Or leading the investigation, or even being analytical and strategical. But alas, this is to be expected, and I guess it's fair: it's Dicks book after all. I wish it was like in Seeley's short story for Gotham Nights where they shared the investigation, but, well... Again, it's fair: it's Dicks book \o/. He leads and does most of the shinny work.
> 
> I enjoyed this read. I hold small "but"s, like revisiting again the "Jason was a violent kid because of his personal trauma", but it is again a thing that's going to be repeated now and them because that's one of his usual themes for most writers. If it wasn't really a problem for me in Cheer with Zdarsky, isn't do here either. Also, I liked how Taylor acknowledged that, for all the blame they put on Jason being brutal with his weapons, it's not like any of them are soft either. Those sticks hit hard, same as any or Bruce punches, or Damian's swords, or Tim's staff.. It was a nice nod.
> 
> At the moment, this is third place for me on the scale of "What writer I'm enjoying more writing Jason". A bit above Seeley's Robins, but below Rosenberg's and Williamson's work.


Jason has never been shown doing any detective work by Zdarsky or Rosenberg either, and as matter of fact, he even bungled the investigation on Cheer by being a hothead ass that couldn't follow Bruce's indications. It is quite telling that the copycat Jason here acts more like Jason did in Urban Legend and the Road to Task Force Z, down to the guy messing with an FBI undercover operation. 

As an aside, I was finally linked to concrete evidence about WB's new stance on guns

https://www.toyfarce.com/news/dcwarn...s-toys-protest

----------


## Zaresh

> Jason has never been shown doing any detective work by Zdarsky or Rosenberg either, and as matter of fact, he even bungled the investigation on Cheer by being a hothead ass that couldn't follow Bruce's indications. It is quite telling that the copycat Jason here acts more like Jason did in Urban Legend and the Road to Task Force Z, down to the guy messing with an FBI undercover operation. 
> 
> As an aside, I was finally linked to concrete evidence about WB's new stance on guns
> 
> https://www.toyfarce.com/news/dcwarn...s-toys-protest


Ok, so what was that when he was looking for suspects in Cheer, following thugs and interrogating them? At the start of the story? Or when he was investigating the doctor in Gotham University, looking for clues about the case? Or when he decided to go with the isolating barsuit to meet Freeze.

I mean, I remember the story, not crystal clear, but I do remember the issues as a whole. I love, Love, detective work. And I remember being quite happy because he did detective work in there. And put together a plan. The only time he didn't was when he lost it because of the kid Which as I said before back in the day, it's really understable and also the same that happened when he read the letter by Willis before he went to shot Penguin.

And as for Task Force Z, just want to point out, that he did some detective work in the prologue. It's mostly off-panel, I yield there. But he worked the investigation for Dev, and with Dev for a few moments, even. And then, TFZ has barely started, and is mostly action oriented. I can admit that there Jason seems a bit naive; but it's just two issues in, and I think it goes for Jason involving himself more in knowing what's going in there.

No surprises about the guns standing.

----------


## Frontier

> Jason has never been shown doing any detective work by Zdarsky or Rosenberg either, and as matter of fact, he even bungled the investigation on Cheer by being a hothead ass that couldn't follow Bruce's indications. It is quite telling that the copycat Jason here acts more like Jason did in Urban Legend and the Road to Task Force Z, down to the guy messing with an FBI undercover operation. 
> 
> As an aside, I was finally linked to concrete evidence about WB's new stance on guns
> 
> https://www.toyfarce.com/news/dcwarn...s-toys-protest


So...better alternative weapons than a crowbar?

----------


## Zaresh

> So...better alternative weapons than a crowbar?


Jason can be a jack of all trades.
I find knives appealing, or chains. Or a bat. But really, let him have a large range of weaponry to work with. Jason's trademark is his helmet or mask.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Ok, so what was that when he was looking for suspects in Cheer, following thugs and interrogating them? At the start of the story? Or when he was investigating the doctor in Gotham University, looking for clues about the case? Or when he decided to go with the isolating barsuit to meet Freeze.
> 
> I mean, I remember the story, not crystal clear, but I do remember the issues as a whole. I love, Love, detective work. And I remember being quite happy because he did detective work in there. And put together a plan. The only time he didn't was when he lost it because of the kid Which as I said before back in the day, it's really understable and also the same that happened when he read the letter by Willis before he went to shot Penguin.
> 
> And as for Task Force Z, just want to point out, that he did some detective work in the prologue. It's mostly off-panel, I yield there. But he worked the investigation for Dev, and with Dev for a few moments, even. And then, TFZ has barely started, and is mostly action oriented. I can admit that there Jason seems a bit naive; but it's just two issues in, and I think it goes for Jason involving himself more in knowing what's going in there.
> 
> No surprises about the guns standing.


He was running around beating people up, then he killed Taylor's dad and spent an entire issue boring on his hideout thinking about how badly he had messed up. Bruce is the one that procures a sample f Cheer, analyzes it, and makes the connection with Crane's toxins. He then goes with Jason and tries to speak with him but Jason once again lashes out and is until Taylor gets involved that they stop and agree to work together. Bruce then shares the results of his analysis with Jason who only points out the obvious connection with Gotham U. They go there and interrogate one of the researchers, but they can't get useful information from her, this infuriates Jason _again_ and he decides Bruce's methods don't work and that he will do things his way. He beats another guy up who tells him the address of one stash of Cheer, which ends up being an ambush by Freeze who then captures him. Jason admits he's filed and sent his location to Oracle so she can contact Bruce. Bruce saves Jason but gets captured in the process and is only then that Jason finally decides to follow Bruce's methods and what lets him find Cheer's base. 

Overall, Jason is written like a dumbass that only is able to help Bruce because Bruce already did the legwork for him. 

As for TFZ, he did such a great investigation that he failed to find the whole thing was an undercover FBI operation and he refused to hear Bruce when he tried to warn him, leading to his capture and posterior drafting into the TFZ program. Again, not a great show of Jason's detective skills.

----------


## Aahz

> Again, it's fair: it's Dicks book \o/. He leads and does most of the shinny work.


Still it felt kind of unbalanced.

I mean other writers have done worse, but in a team up like that I feel you should highlight at leat something cool about the guest character, and have him at least contribute something that ideally the main character can't do.

The whole thing comes of a little bit like Dick needing to help Jason because he has no idea how to solve this case on his own. Compare that with the appearances of Tim and Barbara on this book, they are there because Dick needed their help.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Still it felt kind of unbalanced.
> 
> I mean other writers have done worse, but in a team up like that I feel you should highlight at leat something cool about the guest character, and have him at least contribute something that ideally the main character can't do.
> 
> The whole thing comes of a little bit like Dick needing to help Jason because he has no idea how to solve this case on his own. Compare that with the appearances of Tim and Barbara on this book, they are there because Dick needed their help.


I'll take that over Jason going "rogue" and fighting the Batfamily for the nth time.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. I still don't get why they can write Ghostmaker as competent Anti-Hero in Batman, but can't do the same with Jason.

----------


## Zaresh

> He was running around beating people up, then he killed Taylor's dad and spent an entire issue boring on his hideout thinking about how badly he had messed up. Bruce is the one that procures a sample f Cheer, analyzes it, and makes the connection with Crane's toxins. He then goes with Jason and tries to speak with him but Jason once again lashes out and is until Taylor gets involved that they stop and agree to work together. Bruce then shares the results of his analysis with Jason who only points out the obvious connection with Gotham U. They go there and interrogate one of the researchers, but they can't get useful information from her, this infuriates Jason _again_ and he decides Bruce's methods don't work and that he will do things his way. He beats another guy up who tells him the address of one stash of Cheer, which ends up being an ambush by Freeze who then captures him. Jason admits he's filed and sent his location to Oracle so she can contact Bruce. Bruce saves Jason but gets captured in the process and is only then that Jason finally decides to follow Bruce's methods and what lets him find Cheer's base. 
> 
> Overall, Jason is written like a dumbass that only is able to help Bruce because Bruce already did the legwork for him. 
> 
> *As for TFZ, he did such a great investigation that he failed to find the whole thing was an undercover FBI operation and he refused to hear Bruce when he tried to warn him, leading to his capture and posterior drafting into the TFZ program. Again, not a great show of Jason's detective skills.*


The thing is, I think it was clear that there was not such FBI investigation. The guy just wanted to catch Jason for his organization, the same one that's stealing the bodies. For me, it's clear that it was implied that it all was a cover for the current Task Force Z, FBI agent included. And Bruce was warning Jason about it all being fishy and dangerous enough because there was, and is, something dirty, gov santioned operation going on and Bruce can't help Jason if he falls then in their hands. Whatever those hands are.

You read Cheer one way, with a mindset, and I read it with a different one. It's been clear before, and it still is now. And I'm discussing this with you in two places at the same time and I know I'm not invested enough in dragging it any more. So I'll stop here. I think we've to agree to disagree in this stuff.




> Still it felt kind of unbalanced.
> 
> I mean other writers have done worse, but in a team up like that I feel you should highlight at leat something cool about the guest character, and have him at least contribute something that ideally the main character can't do.
> 
> The whole thing comes of a little bit like Dick needing to help Jason because he has no idea how to solve this case on his own. Compare that with the appearances of Tim and Barbara on this book, they are there because Dick needed their help.


To be honest, I feel the same. But it could have been so much, much, much worse, that I'm going to take what I can get here. It was enjoyable, and that's it.

----------


## Aahz

Btw. what also annoyed my about the Nightwing Annual is that while Preston Payne is a Clayface, his powerset is complelty differnt from the standard version. 
He is not able to shape change and even if he could he is would be way to insane to actually execute a plan like that.

----------


## Frontier

> Btw. what also annoyed my about the Nightwing Annual is that while Preston Payne is a Clayface, his powerset is complelty differnt from the standard version. 
> He is not able to shape change and even if he could he is would be way to insane to actually execute a plan like that.


Should've just brought Matt Hagen back.

----------


## Fergus

> I read the Nighwing annual already. It was ok. Not much subtle writing there, but I don't think it needs to be. It's better than what I've read of Taylor in Jason before, for sure. Taylor's Jason is a brawler, an acrobatic brawler, but he's definitely not the one doing detective work in this story. Or leading the investigation, or even being analytical and strategical. But alas, this is to be expected, and I guess it's fair: it's Dicks book after all. I wish it was like in Seeley's short story for Gotham Nights where they shared the investigation, but, well... Again, it's fair: it's Dicks book \o/. He leads and does most of the shinny work.
> 
> I enjoyed this read. I hold small "but"s, like revisiting again the "Jason was a violent kid because of his personal trauma", but it is again a thing that's going to be repeated now and them because that's one of his usual themes for most writers. If it wasn't really a problem for me in Cheer with Zdarsky, isn't do here either. Also, I liked how Taylor acknowledged that, for all the blame they put on Jason being brutal with his weapons, it's not like any of them are soft either. Those sticks hit hard, same as any or Bruce punches, or  *Damian's swords*, or Tim's staff.. It was a nice nod.
> 
> At the moment, this is third place for me on the scale of "What writer I'm enjoying more writing Jason". A bit above Seeley's Robins, but below Rosenberg's and Williamson's work.


Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.

However that is a valid point. all the bat's use brutal, potentially lethal weapons/methods.

----------


## Zaresh

> Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.


They were, for a while as far as I recall. Duly noted that it's not the case anymore.

----------


## dietrich

> They were, for a while as far as I recall. Duly noted that it's not the case anymore.


No they weren't. Unless you are talking about Damian before he joined the Bat family. Once he joined the family his signature weapons have been the Batarangs or his hands.

Damian very very rarely in comics uses swords. Outside media that lean into his heir to the Demon heritage have him use a katana. That must be what's given you that perception. Comic Damian uses swords as much as Jason uses a bo or blades.

----------


## Zaresh

> No they weren't. Unless you are talking about Damian before he joined the Bat family. Once he joined the family his signature weapons have been the Batarangs or his hands.
> 
> Damian very very rarely in comics uses swords. Outside media that lean into his heir to the Demon heritage have him use a katana. That must be what's given you that perception. Comic Damian uses swords as much as Jason uses a bo or blades.


No, I'm talking about around Tomasi's era in Batman and Robin, during New 52. I can remember him with a sword back then. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I got used to him with a sword from those days. And judging by the fanfics I often read that get a lot of content from then, it's a common conception, mistaken or not. You guys are the hardcore (ok, not the word I mean... In Depth fans? Damn, I suck at English) Damian fans, so I'll trust your word on it, but I remember him like that back then. Maybe it was because covers, or Damian in other media. Hmmm... Could be the case.

----------


## Drako

> As an aside, I was finally linked to concrete evidence about WB's new stance on guns
> 
> https://www.toyfarce.com/news/dcwarn...s-toys-protest


Oh, that's why the Gotham Knights Red hood figure doesn't come with guns? So weird!

----------


## RedBird

This comic was all in all mainly meh, for Jason. This annual was basically filled to the brim with common grievances I have with Jason in current comics, without quite being the most egregious example of any. Like Aahz mentioned, the tendency for Jason to be all round useless in his appearances, whereas other guest characters often get to flex some sort of skill or get to be highlighted in some way, Jason just gets to be useless. Contributing nothing to the task at hand, and if anything simply being a burden on the hero. 

There's also more of Jason justifying using a crowbar, it's always obnoxious in comics when stupid outside decisions are then justified by stupid answers in the narrative. 

There's more misinterpretation of Jason's stance as Red Hood, which was about a loss of faith in the system to keep criminals from repeating their crimes (and even cheating the system), leading to more and more victims, not just Jason not being convinced that prison time was a satisfyingly harsh enough punishment for bad guys. As Red Hood, it wasn't about specifically seeing criminals suffer, it was about searching for a more permanent solution (typically death sentences) to decrease the number of victims, for this to be watered down into a 'huh I guess seeing bad guys go to prison is rewarding enough' moment, is insulting and a ridiculous attempt at 'insight'. 

There's more of 'bad robin' Jason, although, I give it slightly more credit here for not just ending the moment with Dick reprimanding Jason and shaking his head, but actually delving a little into Jason's reasoning and sympathising with the character, which is more than he usually gets.

This felt more in line with BWFAs writing than anything, basic, with surface level understandings of characters, which is absolutely fine for light hearted webtoons, but knowing that THIS is the new standard for Jason in main continuity is, tiring. Though I suppose, this could have been worse, and in general at least this comic can still be enjoyed as a simple read, just don't think too hard about any of the characterisation, cause you know DC sure don't, so why should you waste the energy.

----------


## Aahz

> Comic Damian's weapon of choice aren't swords. He uses his fists or robinarangs.


"robinarangs" and the equivalents of the other Batfamily members are also not exactly harmless weapons.

----------


## Zaresh

> This felt more in line with BWFAs writing than anything, basic, *with surface level understandings of characters*, which is absolutely fine for light hearted webtoons, but knowing that THIS is the new standard for Jason in main continuity is, tiring. Though I suppose, this could have been worse, and in general at least this comic can still be enjoyed as a simple read, just don't think too hard about any of the characterisation, cause you know DC sure don't, so why should you waste the energy.


This is generally my main complain with anything Taylor writes. That, his surface dealing of not-really subtle messages, and that he doesn't plot whole stories all that well. He's a fun read, and usually knows the characters to some degree even if it's not in depth. But... I get why people say he feels fanfictioney. He's alright, but I don't feel he's very good writing certain types of stories and genres.

I bet he's great once he starts writing his own characters withing his own fictional universes. He feels like he could be one of those writers who shine doing creator owned works, to be honest.

----------


## dietrich

> No, I'm talking about around Tomasi's era in Batman and Robin, during New 52. I can remember him with a sword back then. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I got used to him with a sword from those days. And judging by the fanfics I often read that get a lot of content from then, it's a common conception, mistaken or not. You guys are the hardcore (ok, not the word I mean... In Depth fans? Damn, I suck at English) Damian fans, so I'll trust your word on it, but I remember him like that back then. Maybe it was because covers, or Damian in other media. Hmmm... Could be the case.


It's ok, my English isn't so good either. Yes those click bait covers did contribute and fan fics also link him with the sword. I guess it due to people associating Ninja's and LOA with swords and such. So Damian is always given a sword in fan works despite him rarely ever using em.

As a fan who is into Jason big time the B&R issue where Damian ambushes Jason with a sword and crowbar under the pillow likely help that perception of Damian=sword stick in your mind.

----------


## Zaresh

> It's ok, my English isn't so good either. Yes those click bait covers did contribute and fan fics also link him with the sword. I guess it due to people associating Ninja's and LOA with swords and such. So Damian is always given a sword in fan works despite him rarely ever using em.
> 
> As a fan who is into Jason big time the B&R issue where Damian ambushes Jason with a sword and crowbar under the pillow likely help that perception of Damian=sword stick in your mind.


Ah, yeah, that probably helped as well.

----------


## The Invincible Beawulf

> This is generally my main complain with anything Taylor writes. That, his surface dealing of not-really subtle messages, and that he doesn't plot whole stories all that well. He's a fun read, and usually knows the characters to some degree even if it's not in depth. But...* I get why people say he feels fanfictioney.* He's alright, but I don't feel he's very good writing certain types of stories and genres.
> 
> I bet he's great once he starts writing his own characters withing his own fictional universes. He feels like he could be one of those writers who shine doing creator owned works, to be honest.


So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.



btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?

----------


## Jackalope89

> So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.
> 
> 
> 
> btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?


Under the Red Hood is always good (though the movie cuts out a lot of basically filler stuff, and Jenson Ackles nails the role). Outlaws Rebirth was really good, dipped off a little in the middle, but picked back up. And Future State Gotham has been enjoyable. And Batman: Wayne Family Adventures is basically fanfiction given credibility, but its a fun ride.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.
> btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?


Watch the Under The Red Hood animated film from 2011, is the definitive telling of his resurrection. 
The two volumes of Red Hood & The Outlaws, and Red Hood Arsenal. That's pretty much it.

----------


## Zaresh

> So I'm not the only one thinking of Taylor as a fanfiction writer.
> 
> 
> 
> btw I'm interested in Jason Todd's character, but I don't know much about him - could you recommend good comic book stories with him?


You have a starting short list in the second post of this thread*. But let's see. My take on it.

*For his Robin days:*
- You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
- Second Chances.
- Batman The Cult.
- A Death in the Family.

*Post dead.*
- Batman: Under the Hood
- Red Hood: Lost Days
- New 52 Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).
- Rebirth Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016)
- Batman: Urban Legends: Cheer (6 issues)

Other stuff that may be interesting:
- Countdown to Final Crisis.
- Red Hood / Arsenal
- Batman Incorporated vol. 2
- Batman and Robin Eternal.
- Batman: the 3 Jokers

Stuff I don't think it's really good on Jason but people keep referring to:
- Batman and Robin (Dick as Batman)

*Current books and ongoing stories:*
- Future State: Gotham (and Future State The Dark Detective issues 1 and 3. I think it was these two.). An alternate future.
- Task Force Z (and the prelude Road to Task Force Z in the backup stories of Detective Comics 1042 to 4045 if I recall correctly). Current DC universe.
- Suicide Squad: Get Joker. Alternate continuity, 3 Jokers adjacent. But maybe, also main DCU adjacent. We will see.
- Titans United. Alternate universe. It has a previous short story arc of two or three issues.
- Wayne Family. It's a webtoon that's pretty much fanfiction, but official. It's fun and lighthearted.

Alternate universes:
- Arkham Origins. Arkham videogames universe.
- Bombshells unlimited. I think it was unlimited? Has a Kid Jason in a relatively prominent role for the last half.
- Mother Panic. Same. Alternate universe in an alternate timeline, but has Jason in some relatively prominent role, I guess.
- Batman: White Knight and Curse of the White Knight, The Murphyverse has Jason in there. It's pretty secondary as far as time in the panels, but he's a plot point.
- DCeased. Jason is there, sometimes, in some spin offs.

Other stuff:
- Gotham Nights, an anthology from last year, has a few stories with Jason that were pretty enjoyable.
- I think Gotham Knights, another older anthology, has that story with Jason as Robin and Babs as Batgirl that people usually refer to. It's kind of a big retcon with out Jason is portrayed, but it's enjoyable I guess.
- I remember, I think, it was a Deathman's annual, with Jason as a Ghost helping Bruce.
- That short storyline with Bruce, Kara, Clark and Jason circa 2014. It crossed two books, I think. It's where the shipping of Kara and Jason comes from.
- The Robin 80th anniversary has a short, nice story for Jason.

*Things to run from:*
- Battle for the Cowl.
- Nightwing: Brothers in blood.


I think that's all I can think about right now.

----------


## Fergus

> You have a starting short list in the second post of this tread. But let's see. My take on it.
> 
> *For his Robin days:*
> - You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
> - Second Chances.
> - Batman The Cult.
> - A Death in the Family.
> 
> *Post dead.*
> ...


The infamous tentacle monster jason arc! That was a shit show.

----------


## Rac7d*

> You have a starting short list in the second post of this thread*. But let's see. My take on it.
> 
> *For his Robin days:*
> - You can give a try to his pre-crisis time, I guess. It's around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths that he showed up briefly in New Teen Titans and the Superman Annual. Has been referenced quit a lot in the comics, especially lately.
> - Second Chances.
> - Batman The Cult.
> - A Death in the Family.
> 
> *Post dead.*
> ...


To date that is still the biggest and most important story To feature Nightwing and Jason. If only because Bruce is dead so he doesn't hog the spotlight.

----------


## Zaresh

> To date that is still the biggest and most important story To feature Nightwing and Jason. If only because Bruce is dead so he doesn't hog the spotlight.


It's still pretty awful for almost all the characters in there, though. Even Dick. Because I think Dick is pretty OOC in that story too.
And hasn't have been referred in comics the last 10 years, either.

----------


## Restingvoice

Pre-Crisis Jason, first time donning the costume is collected in Joker: His Greatest Jokes but it's only 2 issues.
His later time as Robin is in Batman The Dark Knight Detective Vol. 1 (some issues overlap with Legends of The Dark Knight by Alan Davis but Dark Knight Detective has Jason appearances other than the ones drawn by Davis)
His arc in Teen Titans is in The New Teen Titans Vol. 11
The Superman Annual is in Superman Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow

----------


## Rac7d*

> It's still pretty awful for almost all the characters in there, though. Even Dick. Because I think Dick is pretty OOC in that story too.
> And hasn't have been referred in comics the last 10 years, either.


That's because they dont like mentioning psycho Jason, whenever Damian says why is he here, its honestly for good reason when you look back.
Dicks time as batman and Bruce dying has been refrenced many times over the years

Yeah its a mess but I like the main beats and I do like the concept of it all
the giant splash page looks great.

I always wanted a 2 parter animated movie on it that could tidy it up

----------


## Zaresh

> That's because they dont like mentioning psycho Jason, whenever Damian says why is he here, its honestly for good reason when you look back.
> Dicks time as batman and Bruce dying has been refrenced many times over the years
> 
> Yeah its a mess but I like the main beats and I do like the concept of it all
> the giant splash page looks great.
> 
> I always wanted a 2 parter animated movie on it that could tidy it up


Jason being an enemy to the batfam has been referred before, though. It's a plot point that stands in Jason's backstory both during New 52 and Rebirth, and it's not just because of the Under the Hood storyline. He was sent to Arkham because of it. Some parts have dissapeared from canon to never show up again, like BftC and that Teen Titans issue with Jason attacking Tim (Life and Death, says the wiki, was the name of the issue). But Jason still attacked Tim in Hush, if I recall, and also probably some other undetermined time. We know he didn't meet Professor Pyg in the New52/Rebirth continuity, because it was also mentioned he didn't met Jason before in Tec, I think it was.

Well, who knows what's canon anymore, to be honest. But my point is, it's not a good story, it's not referred in comics anymore, and it's not a good idea either, because I can't see myself Jason fighting anyone for Bruce's legacy. It's so out of character for him, as it is for Dick to doubt himself or/and be purposeful cruel to his family, strangled and unhinged or not.

Think of it this way: would you've enjoyed it if it were a resentful and jealous Dick violently fighting Jason when Jason took over the mantle of Robin? I know I wouldn't*, and that without even entering the murdering territory.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Jason being an enemy to the batfam has been referred before, though. It's a plot point that stands in Jason's backstory both during New 52 and Rebirth, and it's not just because of the Under the Hood storyline. He was sent to Arkham because of it. Some parts have dissapeared from canon to never show up again, like BftC and that Teen Titans issue with Jason attacking Tim (Life and Death, says the wiki, was the name of the issue). But Jason still attacked Tim in Hush, if I recall, and also probably some other undetermined time. We know he didn't meet Professor Pyg in the New52/Rebirth continuity, because it was also mentioned he didn't met Jason before in Tec, I think it was.
> 
> Well, who knows what's canon anymore, to be honest. But my point is, it's not a good story, it's not referred in comics anymore, and it's not a good idea either, because I can't see myself Jason fighting anyone for Bruce's legacy. It's so out of character for him, as it is for Dick to doubt himself or/and be purposeful cruel to his family, strangled and unhinged or not.
> 
> Think of it this way: would you've enjoyed it if it were a resentful and jealous Dick violently fighting Jason when Jason took over the mantle of Robin? I know I wouldn't.


It was a good concept, it was just messy
I don't belive it should be forgotten, nor should Jason's criminal past after resurrections
Hes the blueprint, that Harley Quinn and soon Ivy are following for the redemption angle

----------


## Zaresh

> It was a good concept, it was just messy
> I don't belive it should be forgotten, nor should Jason's criminal past after resurrections
> Hes the blueprint, that Harley Quinn and soon Ivy are following for the redemption angle


I disagree. It's not a good concept. When you need to put several characters into OOC characterization for it to work, it's not. Not for me.
And Jason's past as a criminal hasn't been erased. Him fighting the fam, being antagonistic to them still happened and it's still referred. Heck, it's what happened in the last Nightwing annual when Babs and Dick were looking at the video: they were thinking about Jason's past.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I disagree. It's not a good concept. *When you need to put several characters into OOC characterization for it to work*, it's not. Not for me.
> And Jason's past as a criminal hasn't been erased. Him fighting the fam, being antagonistic to them still happened and it's still referred. Heck, it's what happened in the last Nightwing annual when Babs and Dick were looking at the video: they were thinking about Jason's past.


It did not need to do that, I don't know why they did that.

  For most of Dick career, being Batman when he got older seemed like his next step. As he got older he didnt want that, and went his own way. Then the moment comes and he is wrestling with the choice.  It more then being responsible for just gotham, young Damian is now without his father and Dick has to choose to standby for him as well.

At the Jason was already chracterized as insane and with a jealousy and hatred for Dick. He hates him for being everything jason is not and can't be. It made sense at the time how he acted.

Tim,  cansee Dick hesitating and says Gotham needs a batman and if you don't I will. Similar to how he became robin.



Damian, not yet robin is the one acting the most out of charcter. I dont even recognize him.

The background stuff is what really muddles the issue. Gotham is in chaos,  and every villain you can think of is running a amok. In the chaos every bat ally and bat adjacent (without flying brick powers) I wish the writer gave the chaos more organization in a sense. The citys at war and its issue but we dont know why. Saying its just becasue batman's gone makes no sense.

The only one truly out of character at the time was Damian. The story is bad and needs a rewrite and update.
You probably don't like it because as a Jason fan this was a really ugly period for him.

----------


## Zaresh

> It did not need to do that, I don't know why they did that.
> 
>   For most of Dick career, being Batman when he got older seemed like his next step. As he got older he didnt want that, and went his own way. Then the moment comes and he is wrestling with the choice.  It more then being responsible for just gotham, young Damian is now without his father and Dick has to choose to standby for him as well.
> 
> *At the Jason was already chracterized as insane and with a jealousy and hatred for Dick. He hates him for being everything jason is not and can't be. It made sense at the time how he acted.*
> 
> Tim,  cansee Dick hesitating and says Gotham needs a batman and if you don't I will. Similar to how he became robin.
> 
> 
> ...


This is untrue.
Jason respected Dick. And he's never been* shown as insane until that moment (unless you count* Brothers in Blood, another awful story for every character in). He was shown psychotic, which is not the same as insane, and antagonistic towards Dick. But he wasn't notably jealous, he didn't hate Dick and he doesn't even hate Dick in this story, funny enough. I just went through a reread a few minutes ago just because apparently my ongoing cold hasn't gave me grieving enough.

And Dick is pretty OOC until issue 3. He* expends two issues brooding around, doubting himself, doing nothing to help the city in its chaos. Tim and the birds are the ones dealing with it.

----------


## RedBird

A comic that is a 'good concept' should not be forgotten? There are hundreds, nay thousands of comics that are 'good concepts', that's not enough to carry a book to the good graces of fans. Actual good comics do that. 

And considering that BFTC was a wholly deliberate character assassination piece for Jason from the author, and a story that was in some way or another bizarrely OOC for almost all the main characters involved. Yeah, I think it would make absolute sense for fans to not have a positive opinion on the book, fans don't tend to view stories that are badly written, OOC, and of all things set up a hit pieces for characters to ruin their reputation, as something 'good'.

Deliberate character assassination tends to sour things and there's a reason fans and even sometimes comic creators tend to forget, ignore this and move on, it doesn't take much to realise why no one is singing the praises of Heroes in Crisis as a story that finally tackled Wally's trauma.

----------


## Restingvoice

You can skip Battle for The Cowl and still get the same story because I went straight to Long Shadows, which is supposed to be set after Cowl, and they basically do the same plot point. Dick is grieving, Dick is in doubt, before deciding to be Batman and drag/train Damian with him, and he fought an insane person in a Bat costume, this time it's Two-Face.

No extraneous bit, nobody's out of character, Dick only doubt for one issue which began with the Justice League giving him the cowl. By the end of the issue, he's become Batman. 

Oh, and Long Shadows is written by Winnick, which, even if Jason's not showing up at all in this arc, since he wrote Under The Red Hood and Lost Days, it's an easy choice which cowl inheritance story that's more consistent with everyone's characterization.

----------


## RedBird

> You can skip Battle for The Cowl and still get the same story because I went straight to Long Shadows, which is supposed to be set after Cowl, and they basically do the same plot point. Dick is grieving, Dick is in doubt, before deciding to be Batman and drag/train Damian with him, and he fought an insane person in a Bat costume, this time it's Two-Face.
> 
> No extraneous bit, nobody's out of character, Dick only doubt for one issue which began with the Justice League giving him the cowl. By the end of the issue, he's become Batman. 
> 
> Oh, and Long Shadows is written by Winnick, which, even if Jason's not showing up at all in this arc, since he wrote Under The Red Hood and Lost Days, it's an easy choice which cowl inheritance story that's more consistent with everyone's characterization.


Exactly, here's another comic tackling the same concept of, 'Dick inheriting the cowl and becoming Batman', and as it turns out, it can be done without needlessly weighing a story down with several OOC moments. And as a bonus the 'enemy bat' here is Two Face, a character that was _actually_ a long time nemesis to Dick going all the way back to one of his origin stories, a much more fitting opponent, and not a character that was inorganically shoved into the role of Dick's looney enemy for no reason other than lazy writing deeming him _ completely crazy_ now.

----------


## The Invincible Beawulf

Thank you all for the answers! Yeah, I should 've noticed the list in the second post, but I really appreciate your take on the recommendations  :Smile: 

I've already read Zdarsky's story in Batman UL - I really liked it even though it was basically about making Jason less hardcore (no real bullets just rubber ones if I recall correctly). Somehow it doesn't bother me at all, but maybe it's bc I haven't really read  stories with Jason so far. (Also, I think Zdarsky is a good writer, he's one of my favorites).

----------


## Lal

Are we getting a new Red Hood book by Shawn Martinbrough?
https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...M2YNM9KRw&s=19

----------


## Zaresh

> Are we getting a new Red Hood book by Shawn Martinbrough?
> https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...M2YNM9KRw&s=19


That's definitely Jason's logo.
Would read it, honestly.

----------


## RedBird

Oh, that explains this tweet https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...05495916515335 and that mysterious 'the story continues' tag. 
I wonder if it's for a more longer overarching story or just a sort of one off title, either way, it's nice to see Martinbrough coming back.

Also does anyone know if RHATO 51 and 52 have been collected within a trade anywhere?

----------


## Zaresh

> Oh, that explains this tweet https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...05495916515335 and that mysterious 'the story continues' tag. 
> I wonder if it's for a more longer overarching story or just a sort of one off title, either way, it's nice to see Martinbrough coming back.
> 
> Also does anyone know if RHATO 51 and 52 have been collected within a trade anywhere?


Not in the last trade of RHATO, at least.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

After seeing the way Jason has been handled elsewhere, I'm legitimately excited to see Martinbrough back. Even if flawed, his take on Jason was much more in line with where Lobdell left him.

----------


## Hypo

> Are we getting a new Red Hood book by Shawn Martinbrough?
> https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...M2YNM9KRw&s=19


https://twitter.com/smartinbrough/st...83974749650947

----------


## Zaresh

Can't share it now, because I'm in a mobile device. But Murphy's teased a new picture for Beyond White Knight and it looks like there's a Red Hood who could easily be Jason in one of Terry's(?) side. The other character, I guess it's Dick, but who knows. Maybe neither of them are either.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

> Can't share it now, because I'm in a mobile device. But Murphy's teased a new picture for Beyond White Knight and it looks like there's a Red Hood who could easily be Jason in one of Terry's(?) side. The other character, I guess it's Dick, but who knows. Maybe neither of them are either.


Here


https://www.instagram.com/p/CWtELE0Lccj/

Looking at his other posts, yeah, that is supposed to be Dick as part of the GCPD. But I wonder how does the timeline works because Dick, Duke and Barbara look more or less the same they looked during White Knight and Curse but Bruce looks way older.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

More listings for upcoming McFarlane toys made their way online and now we know that the Zombie Red Hood from DC Essentials is finally getting released



https://news.toyark.com/2021/12/08/d...ot-more-452686

----------


## RedBird

Just a reminder Titans United #4 is out now.

Gotham Future State is too, however this issue seems to be another side story with a different character like issue #4 with Harley Quinn, so if you're not collecting the series and only want the Jason centric issues, this ones a skip.

Also there was a small appearance of Robin Jason in Urban Legends #10, within the Nightwing Christmas Carol story, nothing big, but I had to give it points for being one of the very few rare instances where Robin Jason appears in a story and his role/actions aren't just alluding to his death or his reputation as 'the bad robin'. I know, I was shocked too.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Robins #3 is out too if you're on the US and much to my delight it has this great nod to RHATO



Based on this, then I'm guessing Jason's sword is supposed to be an All-Blade. The story continues to be pretty standard but I did like the reaction Jason has at the end regarding the fate of the criminals kidnapped by the First Robin; who by the way, it seems that is going by Jenny Wren after the nursery rhyme.

----------


## Frontier

> Robins #3 is out too if you're on the US and much to my delight it has this great nod to RHATO
> 
> 
> 
> Based on this, then I'm guessing Jason's sword is supposed to be an All-Blade. The story continues to be pretty standard but I did like the reaction Jason has at the end regarding the fate of the criminals kidnapped by the First Robin; who by the way, it seems that is going by Jenny Wren after the nursery rhyme.


Steph giving a female villain a wedgie  :Stick Out Tongue: .

That is a nice Outlaws nod...

----------


## Zaresh

Hey! They acknowledged Jason teaming with Kori! That's nice.

Man, Tim definitely seems like the punching bag of the batverse. I mean, I saw it coming, and I suspect Jason and Steph too. Or at least, Steph does.

Speaking of which. I like the dynamic Jason and her have here.

----------


## Zaresh

So, definitely, Jason's role in Beyond White Knight is going to be big, at least at the start. He also looks in his late 40's, which I guess is right too. I love his design. Damn, red and hazel brown with yellow accents is so pleasant in my eyes.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

The images in question




I think that Murphy's writing has been alright and has come with interesting new takes on classic characters so I'm really looking forward to seeing how he develops what initially was a screw-up on his part.

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## Zaresh

> The images in question
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that Murphy's writing has been alright and has come with interesting new takes on classic characters so I'm really looking forward to seeing how he develops what initially was a screw-up on his part.


It's a nice case of having not an indepth idea of the mythos you write in, but using your "happy accidents" to come up with something fresh, different and fun. I know it's divisive, but so far, for me, it works.

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## RedBird

I think within one of those other pages it might also feature Jason as the guard being attacked by the prisoner. White streak and all.

Anyways, I've disliked Murphy's take on Jason ever since the first series finished and nothing between then and now has changed my mind about that. But, with that aside, I do really like this series/universe regardless so it's an instant purchase for me, and hey, you never know, maybe within this series Murphy will finally present an interpretation or evolution of his Jason that I'll actually find enjoyable here.

EDIT: Looks like a Red Hood one off may be coming soon as well, here's a fan question in this post answered by Murphy https://www.instagram.com/p/CXUX0U7LAlg/.

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## Rac7d*

Jason's urban legend costume looked good this issue as robin

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## Zaresh

> Jason's urban legend costume looked good this issue as robin


The black trench coat was nice, but I don't think it will stick.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> I think within one of those other pages it might also feature Jason as the guard being attacked by the prisoner. White streak and all.
> 
> Anyways, I've disliked Murphy's take on Jason ever since the first series finished and nothing between then and now has changed my mind about that. But, with that aside, I do really like this series/universe regardless so it's an instant purchase for me, and hey, you never know, maybe within this series Murphy will finally present an interpretation or evolution of his Jason that I'll actually find enjoyable here.
> 
> EDIT: Looks like a Red Hood one off may be coming soon as well, here's a fan question in this post answered by Murphy https://www.instagram.com/p/CXUX0U7LAlg/.


What didn't you like about Murphy's take on Jason? We haven't seen much of him to begin with but the retcon about his death is nothing that we haven't seen before, him being the First Robin significantly changes his standing with the rest of the Bat-Family and his two appearances in the present of the story treat him relatively well.

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## CorDaytona

Still haven't bothered reading TSZ #2, but it's really cool to see the Martinbrough stuff. While his two issues were obviously not enough to get a detailed idea of how he'll proceed with RH, they were fun and Jason was well written, as well as had the right idea his relationship with Bruce (but of course editorial's such a mess that they basically redid that with Cheer).

Hopefully it's an ongoing solo ! I wonder if they'll ditch the TFZ armour. Give me the cyborg ninja look back plus the jacket or even a coat à la Hush, please. I sadly expect the guns to still be gone, but I hope they can at least give him cool main weapons and get rid of the crowbars. Again, his kusarigama from FS is a cool, unique (among supes) choice.

On another note, there's a Gotham Knights show in the making at CW. Couldn't be less interested in WB TV (especially if it's CW), but I guess Jason could show up. It's interesting to see how it apparently has anything to do with the game despite the name (common enough within Batman-related shit) and a similar premise where Bruce's dead.

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## RedBird

> What didn't you like about Murphy's take on Jason? We haven't seen much of him to begin with but the retcon about his death is nothing that we haven't seen before, him being the First Robin significantly changes his standing with the rest of the Bat-Family and his two appearances in the present of the story treat him relatively well.


It's been a while since my commentary for White Knight all those years ago, and yes, I'm fully aware that this is kind of an unfair comparison, but this comic released a couple years after Arkham Knight, which featured Jason withstanding year long torture and still (technically) never giving up any information about the Bats. Meanwhile Murphy's Jason was held captive for.....a few hours? Half a night? and gives up Bruces name just like that. Even in my original review, I acknowledged that I probably wouldn't have judged too harshly if it weren't for AK, and again, it's probably unfair to complain about a character not withstanding 'enough' torture, but I can't help but see Murphys Jason as just being so much more weak-willed by comparison. 

And _Jason_ and _weak willed_ should not be a desired combo. It's not a god awful representation by any means, but nothing I enjoyed. More like dislike, bordering on the side of neutral to be clear. But on top of that Jason's presence in the Harley Quinn White Knight series also just featured him as a bit of a buffoon whose arrogance had him being duped by Bruce, so, not exactly an improvement there either.

I'm hoping now that there will be more attention given to him here, that it can shed some light on the character and his history.




> On another note, there's a Gotham Knights show in the making at CW. Couldn't be less interested in WB TV (especially if it's CW), but I guess Jason could show up. It's interesting to see how it apparently has anything to do with the game despite the name (common enough within Batman-related shit) and a similar premise where Bruce's dead.


No Fear
CW Jason
One Fear

Funny thing is though, that despite CWs own poor reputation, Titans was so abysmal with Jason that I don't know if CW Jason would honestly be a disaster or an improvement. XD

I'm thinking realistically they might go with an OC for the show though.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

> It's been a while since my commentary for White Knight all those years ago, and yes, I'm fully aware that this is kind of an unfair comparison, but this comic released a couple years after Arkham Knight, which featured Jason withstanding year long torture and still (technically) never giving up any information about the Bats. Meanwhile Murphy's Jason was held captive for.....a few hours? Half a night? and gives up Bruces name just like that. Even in my original review, I acknowledged that I probably wouldn't have judged too harshly if it weren't for AK, and again, it's probably unfair to complain about a character not withstanding 'enough' torture, but I can't help but see Murphys Jason as just being so much more weak-willed by comparison. 
> 
> And _Jason_ and _weak willed_ should not be a desired combo. It's not a god awful representation by any means, but nothing I enjoyed. More like dislike, bordering on the side of neutral to be clear. But on top of that Jason's presence in the Harley Quinn White Knight series also just featured him as a bit of a buffoon whose arrogance had him being duped by Bruce, so, not exactly an improvement there either.
> 
> I'm hoping now that there will be more attention given to him here, that it can shed some light on the character and his history.


I see although you're ignoring the different context between both scenes, and both scenes are completely nonsensical when you get down to it, AK's by assuming that Jason spent an entire year being tortured under Bruce's nose and _no one noticed_ even when Bruce built a freaking backup batcave under Arkham and WK's by happening in just one night. I find WK's take easier to reconcile since this is the Joker we're talking about and we don't even know how long was Jason a Robin, to begin with, in that universe.

And when you add what happened after, WK's Jason being able to move past the torture and growing into a well-adjusted man that continues to work for justice on his own terms is definitely better than a Jason that got stuck on his trauma and became easily manipulable by others.

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## RedBird

> I see although you're ignoring the different context between both scenes, and both scenes are completely nonsensical when you get down to it, AK's by assuming that Jason spent an entire year being tortured under Bruce's nose and _no one noticed_ even when Bruce built a freaking backup batcave under Arkham and WK's by happening in just one night.


I know my view of it is already coloured with bias from the simple fact that I'm even using AK as a comparison in the first place. Logically AK has got nothing to do with WK, they're different universes with different context, and yet, I can't help but compare. To be clear, I'm not trying to make this into a convincing argument or to sway anyone's else opinion, I can absolutely understand why others would enjoy and/or like this take on Jason, I just don't feel the same. For me, unless WK finally fills in the gaps, and provides context, I can't help but see WK Robin Jason as just weaker compared to other interpretations.




> I find WK's take easier to reconcile since this is the Joker we're talking about and *we don't even know how long was Jason a Robin, to begin with, in that universe. And when you add what happened after, WK's Jason being able to move past the torture and growing into a well-adjusted man that continues to work for justice on his own terms* is definitely better than a Jason that got stuck on his trauma and became easily manipulable by others.


It's definitely interesting to see him in the future with a career that carries out justice in some way or another and I'd certainly like to see how he got there and to see this expanded upon in the series, but, and just in complete fairness, if a lack of information/context should negate full critiques on Jason as Robin, then it has to be acknowledged that we also really don't know anything about adult Jason in this universe yet either. He might have a career in law enforcement, but because of how corrupt law enforcements are typically presented in Gotham, it's hard to even take that career as some kind of sure sign that he's on any right path. The adult version of Jason has also been such a nothing character so far, it's actually hard to pin down how well-adjusted he truly is, or ever was, for that matter I suppose. This volume is where it will all be revealed I guess, I just hope it sticks the landing and finally presents something substantial for the character, cause I really like the series.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

March Solicits




> ROBINS #5
> Written by TIM SEELEY
> Art and cover by BALDEMAR RIVAS
> Variant cover by KHARY RANDOLPH
> $3.99 US | 32 pages | 5 of 6 | $4.99 US Variant (card stock)
> ON SALE 3/15/22
> Trapped in a virtual prison, the Robins must face down their own gauntlet of bad memories. Every step they take places them further and further into their fabricated realities with no escape in sight! Can the Robins break free from their tragic pasts, or will they be lost to their former lives forever?
> BATMAN: BEYOND THE WHITE KNIGHT #1
> Written by SEAN MURPHY
> ...




I'm really curious as to why Jason and Damian are dressed like a F1 Racer and a monk, respectively while Dick and Steph are just Agent 37 and Spoiler.



Nice cover but is sad that the crowbar appeared here too.

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## Drako

Is that Formula 1 Jason Todd? Where this come from?

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Is the regular cover for Robins #5

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## Drako

> Is the regular cover for Robins #5


No, i mean, where this formula 1 jason todd idea comes from? Or is something new?
Cause Dick is Agent 37 and Steph has her old costume there, i assumed it was something from the past.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Completely new far as I can tell.

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## Zaresh

> No, i mean, where this formula 1 jason todd idea comes from? Or is something new?
> Cause Dick is Agent 37 and Steph has her old costume there, i assumed it was something from the past.


No idea, to be honest. I'm just wondering what will Seeley come with. Maybe some show with bikes or street racing? I suspect he will came with street racing for Jason's background at some point.

That cover is pretty nice, to be honest. Simple, but nice.

So much Jason coming next march. A little of everything for every taste. I love it.
But the solicit for Get Joker is... weird. It's basically the solicit for issue one, but with the misleading that a fastwritten placeholder solicits usually have when they don't know still what the actual issue is going to be about.

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## Aahz

> But the solicit for Get Joker is... weird. It's basically the solicit for issue one, but with the misleading that a fastwritten placeholder solicits usually have when they don't know still what the actual issue is going to be about.


Because that's the solicit for the trade, the final issue is iirc out in January.

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## Zaresh

> Because that's the solicit for the trade, the final issue is iirc out in January.


Ahhh, right. I totally forgot about it.
Damn, I'm slow today.

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## RedBird

Nice, quite a few books there, and man, do my eyes deceive me, is that an actual image of the Robins where Jason actually gets to have his canon height? I saw that image of the Robins #5 cover floating around on the net and I legitimately thought it was fanart just because of that accurate height. Was surprised to see it was real/official, big props to the artist, DC almost never get that right.

Also, the Driver suit is certainly a surprise to see, Dick and Steph are in old suits but I don't recall Jason ever being in Formula 1 or Damian being a monk. I don't know if a short lived time as a driver will be shoehorned into Jasons background, or if maybe this is just a disguise for the issue? Hmmm, I'm gonna throw out a wilder theory, maybe, since the solicitation mentions them falling into fabricated realities (so maybe not real memories) and since the theme behind this book was the question of whether being Robin was a good thing or not. Maybe the characters end up hallucinating alternate versions of their lives where they didn't meet Batman. 

So Dick, who began wanting revenge for his parents and sorting those emotions out, still ends up being an active agent of sorts with Spyral, Damian perhaps seeks a more peaceful route within the league, Steph is certainly an outlier that arguably forged her own path, and it's not hard to imagine that she still would have ended up as Spoiler with or without Batman, and as for Jason, well, typically for him writers love going the tragic route, so, maybe his alternate future is an 'improvement' and he goes from stealing from cars as a youth, to ending up behind the wheel of one, driving as an official racer in Gotham.

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## Aahz

> Nice, quite a few books there, and man, do my eyes deceive me, is that an actual image of the Robins where Jason actually gets to have his canon height? I saw that image of the Robins #5 cover floating around on the net and I legitimately thought it was fanart just because of that accurate height. Was surprised to see it was real/official, big props to the artist, DC almost never get that right.


I made some quick measurements, the reltive heights seem indeed in line with what is typically printed in the character guide bocks.

It matches:
Jason: 6'0''
Dick: 5'10''
Steph: 5'5''
Damian: 4'6''

Kind of wondering why Tim is missing from the cover.

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## Zaresh

> Nice, quite a few books there, and man, do my eyes deceive me, is that an actual image of the Robins where Jason actually gets to have his canon height? I saw that image of the Robins #5 cover floating around on the net and I legitimately thought it was fanart just because of that accurate height. Was surprised to see it was real/official, big props to the artist, DC almost never get that right.
> 
> Also, the Driver suit is certainly a surprise to see, Dick and Steph are in old suits but I don't recall Jason ever being in Formula 1 or Damian being a monk. I don't know if a short lived time as a driver will be shoehorned into Jasons background, or if maybe this is just a disguise for the issue? Hmmm, I'm gonna throw out a wilder theory, maybe, since the solicitation mentions them falling into fabricated realities (so maybe not real memories) and since the theme behind this book was the question of whether being Robin was a good thing or not. Maybe the characters end up hallucinating alternate versions of their lives where they didn't meet Batman. 
> 
> So Dick, who began wanting revenge for his parents and sorting those emotions out, still ends up being an active agent of sorts with Spyral, Damian perhaps seeks a more peaceful route within the league, Steph is certainly an outlier that arguably forged her own path, and it's not hard to imagine that she still would have ended up as Spoiler with or without Batman, and as for Jason, well, typically for him writers love going the tragic route, so, maybe his alternate future is an 'improvement' and he goes from stealing from cars as a youth, to ending up behind the wheel of one, driving as an official racer in Gotham.


I like your especulation, fits both solicit and cover.

I'm guessing Tim isn't there because he's not trapped.

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## gwhh

I love this interaction between Jason & Artemis!

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-6480890

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Not even Frank is safe from the Anti-gun politics sweeping comics

https://www.gamesradar.com/punisher-1-preview-covers/

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## batnbreakfast

Random Idea: Watching Hawkeye on D+... is that the way to do Batman and Robin?

----------


## Korath

> Not even Frank is safe from the Anti-gun politics sweeping comics
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/punisher-1-preview-covers/


I'm actually really fine with that.

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## Aahz

> Not even Frank is safe from the Anti-gun politics sweeping comics
> 
> https://www.gamesradar.com/punisher-1-preview-covers/


Honestly I think Punisher is kind of the character they should either leave as he is, or stop using at all.

Making a "political correct" version of him doesn't make much sense.

And the people that are likely the reason for this change, are very likely not reading these comics anyway.

Btw. with Jason the change is similarly pointless, there is a animated movie, a TV series and two computer games (soon 3 unless they are going to make changes to the final version Gotham Knights) out where he is using guns.

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## Zaresh

> Honestly I think Punisher is kind of the character they should either leave as he is, or stop using at all.
> 
> Making a "political correct" version of him doesn't make much sense.
> 
> And the people that are likely the reason for this change, are very likely not reading these comics anyway.
> 
> Btw. with Jason the change is similarly pointless, there is a animated movie, a TV series and two computer games (soon 3 unless they are going to make changes to the final version Gotham Knights) out where he is using guns.


It's not the people, it's a whole market. I don't think this is much about the USA market as much as it is about certain asian markets that don't like guns in their main characters.

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## sifighter

I like to think that Bruce wouldn't have a problem with what Jason did today, probably a technicality on the whole don't kill rule all things considered.

*spoilers:*
 Jason rekilled Bane. Context: Bane is a zombie resurrected under task force Z with only some memory of who he is and in this issue Jason wrestled with the idea that what gives him the right to get vengeance on Bane...but Vengeance won out and after Bane regained his memories Jason hit him, made sure that Bane remembered why Jason was doing this (Bane did remember), and knocked him off the top of a building to his redeath. 

If Bruce can let vampires die for not being people I assume zombies are fair game.  
*end of spoilers*

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## Jackalope89

Yeah, to quote the film "Chicago", 

He had it coming, and he only had himself to blame.

But the next issue will be very interesting to read for sure.

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## Zaresh

Task Force Z #3.

Fun, eventful, fast paced issue. I liked this one a lot. And I liked the ending most of it all.
Looking forward to see how this follows.

----------


## Aahz

Why are they giving Jason an armored Suit when it is completely useless? :Mad: 

In Urban legends he put on this suit specificity against Freeze, but it didn't really seem to help in the first issue, than he got shot in issue #2, and now stabbed in issue #3 (and a Sai is afaik normally a blunt weapon in real life).

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## Zaresh

> Why are they giving Jason an armored Suit when it is completely useless?
> 
> In Urban legends he put on this suit specificity against Freeze, but it didn't really seem to help in the first issue, than he got shot in issue #2, and now stabbed in issue #3 (and a Sai is afaik normally a blunt weapon in real life).


As a matter in fact, armours like that one can't stop point blank bullets and aren't very protected in the joint against piercing small weapons like Chesire's. They're good against cutting and blunt weaponry.

So... Yeah, it's kinda useless against those.

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## sifighter

> Why are they giving Jason an armored Suit when it is completely useless?
> 
> In Urban legends he put on this suit specificity against Freeze, but it didn't really seem to help in the first issue, than he got shot in issue #2, and now stabbed in issue #3 (and a Sai is afaik normally a blunt weapon in real life).


I just assumed because it was a gift from Bruce is why he’s wearing it.

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## Dark_Tzitzimine

Task Force Z is a mess.

Jason has always been following someone's lead and now he doesn't know what to do? Are you serious?

Is the exact same nonsense that Tynion pulled during his run. Jason might be a mess of a man with deep psychological issues but he has always been someone with conviction and the willpower to see through his own convictions with the need of someone else calling the shots. Hell, the whole reason he died in the first place was precisely because he defied orders and did what he thought was the right thing. Rosenberg has absolutely no understanding of Jason's character. 

And the thing with Bane is just self-indulgent fluff that is completely meaningless beyond a "shocking" scene to end a story, we know Bane it will just come back next issue and there was no closure at all with the situation with Alfred, just another case of Jason letting his emotions get the better of him. And if editorial knows that the armor is freaking useless, why use it in the first place? What's the freaking point?

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## Aahz

> As a matter in fact, armours like that one can't stop point blank bullets and aren't very protected in the joint against piercing small weapons like Chesire's. They're good against cutting and blunt weaponry.


I would imagine that armored version of the Batsuit should able to protect the wearer against something like this.

I think the 3 issues he has been wearing this suit he got injured more than in the entire time he was wearing his previous suit, that was made up of regular cloth.

----------


## Zaresh

> I would imagine that armored version of the Batsuit should able to protect the wearer against something like this.
> 
> I think the 3 issues he has been wearing this suit he got injured more than in the entire time he was wearing his previous suit, that was made up of regular cloth.


I thought the costume was made in a bulletproof material (all of them, actually. Same for the helmet, that you would expect it can stand heavy hitting: it doesn't), but apparently, it's not. As usual, it all ends with what they want to do for the story, as usual. This one is a gory, bloody one, so, well...

----------


## RedBird

Finally caught up. Well Task Force Z seems to be getting more intriguing with each issue and I kind of really like the Crispin twist.
The Bane incident is just pure revenge, though I can't enjoy it fully but not for the reasons people are pointing out. Of course *we* know Bane is coming back, welcome to comics where 99% of deaths are meaningless trite, and characters return as though they had been on holidays. But even though this comic didn't commit the sin of killing Alfred, the elephant in the room couldn't be ignored forever, so I'm glad to see it being addressed regardless. 

The actual important and character defining moment here is that with full intention, Jason killed Bane, and by his comment he seems to believe he did so permanently. My problem is not, 'oh no but Bane is coming back so what's the point', my problem is the framing of this moment which as of now, is ambiguous. As a reader, and a fan, this moment reads as catharsis, an almost celebratory moment, and judging by online reactions I don't think I'm alone on this thought, but I worry that like with almost every time that Jason gets a moment of wrath and catharsis in a comic, this incident will come back to bite him or be reframed as a humbling teaching lesson about killing always being badwrong, or some kind of 'oh no he's gone to far moment' despite the fact that killing someone out of vengeance for a loved one, especially an awful villain like Bane, is very much in character. For some reason when it comes to Jason, lately DC has had a habit of punishing the character for doing what most fans want him and/or expect him to do, and I'm tired of that. I'm just not looking forward to more finger wagging by the narrative of all things.

----------


## Zaresh

If everyone is alright with it, I'll start a new thread for the current new year.

----------


## Dark_Tzitzimine

Sure, go ahead

----------


## MarvelARPGFan

Hello everbody, I thought that this would be the best place to ask. I'm making a video about the Gotham knights video game, and I need some references for a section about Red Hood. This section of the video will be dedicated to how Red Hood uses non-lethal methods in the game. I've heard that this is something that he also did in the comics, but I'm not sure where to start for references for this.

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## Zaresh

Just saying, this is the old thread. Post again in the newer thread if you don't mind, please.

There, we will try to help you.
It will help with the forum, keeping all our discussion in an updated thread.

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