# Comics  > Batman >  Dick Grayson: Robin, Nightwing, Agent of Spyral Appreciation 2018

## Godlike13

Continued from the old thread: http://community.comicbookresources....l-Appreciation

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## CPSparkles

I hope these get merged later.

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## Godlike13

Ya, it sucks. But hopefully things get fixed around here.

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## Fergus

What's this about Nightwing getting a new costume? Is he really? and when?

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## Fergus

How are people feeling about Percy's Nightwing so far? I know it's early days but just finished latest issue and not sure how to feel.

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## Godlike13

*NIGHTWING #50*
_Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.

"Knight Terrors" begins here! The big issue #50 kicks off an epic four-part story that brings together critical moments of fear and doubt from the past and the present. A young Dick Grayson hopes to escape the shadow of the Bat and earn the title of Nightwing, while an older Dick Grayson must deal with a blow he did not see coming. A common enemy unites the timelines: the Scarecrow, as you've never seen him before! This story goes deep into the mythology and nightmarish development of Dr. Jonathan Crane.
48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Oct. 3. 
_
*NIGHTWING #51* 
_Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Howard Porter.

And while Nightwing struggles to uncover the truth behind the "fear germ" that is killing people in their sleep, he must also try to overcome his own sudden struggles with heights and vertigo. He has lost his primary skill set as a hero and will have to focus on his brilliance as a detective instead. And a distracting love triangle certainly isn't helping him focus...This new storyline spins out of events in Batman #55. The start of a new direction in Nightwing's crimefighting career!
32 pages, $3.99, in stores on Oct. 17._

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## Godlike13

> How are people feeling about Percy's Nightwing so far? I know it's early days but just finished latest issue and not sure how to feel.


Im torn about it. Im still not sure what to think of the whole Dick doesn't like technology, but I like what he's doing with Dick and Babs. Though I thought the the first arc ended rather anticlimactic. Also can't say im digging the art. Just doesn't really fit for me.

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## Onthetrapeze

I actually like Percy's run. He is slowly building the world so I can understand the first arc is simple and short like an intro. But hey he gave us a Nightwing cave，funny interaction with Barbara，and the cameo of Vicki. The solicits looks very promising，so I am looking forward to what's coming up.

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## Godlike13

Nightwing cave is a bad idea IMO. Just reinforces the the Batman-lite stigma.

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## Restingvoice

Interview: Ben Percy On NIGHTWING #47 And Where The Title Is Going Next

*What about Dick Grayson/Nightwing. How have these events affected him and his relationship with his city?
*BP: At the beginning of the arc, Grayson was exhausted by technologythe constant flash and buzz of social media and email and smartphone alertsand so, of course, I hurled him into the center of a massive tech threat. He has teamed up with Batgirlwhose skill set is uniquely suited for this storylineand has recognized that he must embrace and weaponize technology if hes going to bring down these Dark Web architects.

*Barbara/Batgirl was a big part of this arc, especially this finale issue. What makes her such an important ally to Nightwing?
*BP: I mentioned her skillset alreadybut beyond that, she and Dick make such a good pairing. I love the way they fit together emotionally, and I love the way they look together visually. Babs is going to be an essential part of my run on Nightwing.

*Can you tease us as to who or what to expect next in Nightwing?
*BP: Its not that the Dark Web is going anywherethats the central through-line of my runbut I think its important to give readers vacations. Constantly make things feel fresh. So the next two issues are an insane visual spectacleabout the greatest motorcycle race in the cosmos. This is very much a tribute to Grant Morrison, and youll see characters like Professor Pyg and Flamingo pop up. Itsbananas. A fun- and adrenaline-fueled romp. 

After that, things are going to get scary. It will be October after all. Im known for my horror novels. And were launching a Scarecrow storyline that will do a deep dive into fear and identity. And though I cant say what exactly is going to happen to Nightwinglets just say issue 50 is going to be monumentally intense. Its an anniversary issue, and were taking full advantage of it. Something big is coming. Something that is going to unsettle people greatly. Which is what a good horror story should do. 

After that journey, well return to the central Dark Web story. Thanks to everyone for readingI appreciate being trusted with the series and I promise to bring the epic.

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## Godlike13

Ooh, I’m excited about a horror story. That sounds fun for something coming out in October .

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## byrd156

> Nightwing cave is a bad idea IMO. Just reinforces the the Batman-lite stigma.


He needs some kind of base of operations, why not do something familiar?

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## CPSparkles

> How are people feeling about Percy's Nightwing so far? I know it's early days but just finished latest issue and not sure how to feel.


I like it. I'm trying not to compare it to others runs I loved because that's unfair. Dick's voice sounds a bit off but this could just be Percy finding his feet.

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## CPSparkles

> *NIGHTWING #50*
> _Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Jonboy Meyers.
> 
> "Knight Terrors" begins here! The big issue #50 kicks off an epic four-part story that brings together critical moments of fear and doubt from the past and the present. A young Dick Grayson hopes to escape the shadow of the Bat and earn the title of Nightwing, while an older Dick Grayson must deal with a blow he did not see coming. A common enemy unites the timelines: the Scarecrow, as you've never seen him before! This story goes deep into the mythology and nightmarish development of Dr. Jonathan Crane.
> 48 pages, $4.99, in stores on Oct. 3. 
> _
> *NIGHTWING #51* 
> _Written by Benjamin Percy, art by Chris Mooneyham and Travis Moore, cover by Mike Perkins, variant cover by Howard Porter.
> 
> ...


These sound great especially #50

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## byrd156

Very excited for Scarecrow to show up. Really think he and Dick should have more stories together. The fear and identity angle with Scarecrow and Dick is something that is long overdue imo so I'm glad that it's finally happening.

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## Drako

Nightwing Annual preview

https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ale-partner-up

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## dietrich

> Nightwing Annual preview
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ale-partner-up


Dick and Vick! 

Why you wanna do this DC? I gonna be reading though.

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## Knight27

Why does it feel like they're gonna hook them up? Or is it just me?

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## RedQueen

Otto Schmidt is gonna kill it. 

But Dick being set up with one of Bruce's exes? ok...I'll bite.

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## Rac7d*

> Why does it feel like they're gonna hook them up? Or is it just me?


anyone who doesn't know him as dick doesn't have a shot
however I would not mind her coming to bludhaven and being apaprt of is cast I miss her and batman does not stay out of uniform much

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Otto Schmidt is gonna kill it. 
> 
> But Dick being set up with one of Bruce's exes? ok...I'll bite.


It already looks amazing.

And to be fair, there's been no indication that Bruce and Vicki have ever been together since the New 52 reboot. And Vicki was deaged to be in Dick's age bracket back then anyways, so I'm not surprised by this. I do think the reaction is justified though, since Vicki is so heavily tied to Bruce, but I'm personally okay with it because it's not like any mainline Batman writer was going to write about her in a comic again anyways, it's been years since Batman Eternal, and this Nightwing Annual has been her only appearance since then afaik.  




> Why does it feel like they're gonna hook them up? Or is it just me?


I think she's part of the love triangle, tbh. I mean...you saw the lipstick on the coffee scene, right? And that's fine by me, as weird as it could be, since there's no way Percy isn't leaning hard into DickBabs.

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## Onthetrapeze

Percy picked a Bruce's former love-interest to flirt with Dick 
Seeley made Dick admit that he regards Damian as his son
King described Dick and Bruce's relationship as best friends 
It is confirmed that Dick is Bruce's ward rather than his adopted son in rebirth

Is current DC trying to set Dick and Bruce as more brother-like instead of father and son？

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## DragonPiece

> Percy picked a Bruce's former love-interest to flirt with Dick 
> Seeley made Dick admit that he regards Damian as his son
> King described Dick and Bruce's relationship as best friends 
> It is confirmed that Dick is Bruce's ward rather than his adopted son in rebirth
> 
> Is current DC trying to set Dick and Bruce as more brother-like instead of father and son？


I feel like that's been the case for a while now

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## Godlike13

Dick and Bruce’s relationship is multifaceted. It’s all those things.

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## byrd156

> Nightwing Annual preview
> 
> https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...ale-partner-up


Is it just me or does Timmy feel like he is going to be evil?

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## byrd156

> Percy picked a Bruce's former love-interest to flirt with Dick 
> Seeley made Dick admit that he regards Damian as his son
> King described Dick and Bruce's relationship as best friends 
> It is confirmed that Dick is Bruce's ward rather than his adopted son in rebirth
> 
> Is current DC trying to set Dick and Bruce as more brother-like instead of father and son？


I've always felt that their dynamic is the perfect blend of father/son and brotherly relationship. Only leaning slightly more towards father/son because of the adoption/ward.

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## Onthetrapeze

> I feel like that's been the case for a while now


I like them being brothers. Just like two kids who lost their parents grew up together with a true father figure Alfred.

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## L.H.

> Off topic:
> When Dick ran into Gordon while filling in for Bruce recently, Gordon merely said  youre the other him.
> I thought it was well established that Gordon knew their secret identities while HE was Batman.


Well, that happened before the end of Grayson. Probably when the Somnum was activated, he was one of those who forgot Nightwing true identity.

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## dietrich

> Dick and Bruces relationship is multifaceted. Its all those things.


This. There relationship is hard for me to define. Like Dick and Damian are more than just brothers. Dick and Bruce are more than just Father and Son.

And I have no problem with that.
I'm glad Dick and Bruce's relationship/story evolved to a point where they are now much more than typical Father and Son. It makes their relationship special and different

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## Vinsanity

> Is it just me or does Timmy feel like he is going to be evil?


It's not you. 

He just looks evil.

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## byrd156

> It's not you. 
> 
> He just looks evil.


Just from that interaction it feels like he's a villain that wants Vicki for himself.

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## nhienphan2808

It's a tradition of NW Annuals: about his terrible love life and shitty relationships that drags his character to the ground. My first thoughts are this mess is just for the annual and will have little to do with the main series but it's always like this with Dick, all the ugly storylines and characterization stay whle his progress and other talents/achievements are retconed out. He will have that injury in this run but later writers will not do anything about it and will retcon it back out but this love triangle is added onto his list of fuck ups.

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## Restingvoice

...Was Nightwing usually categorized as a YA book?  
I remember when DC You started, Grayson, Batgirl and Gotham Academy were collected together as a Young book, and I was like... what.

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## CPSparkles

> Is it just me or does Timmy feel like he is going to be evil?


Phew! I read this before looking at the preview and for a sec I thought Timmy as in Tim Drake.

Nightwing and Vicky. I did not see that coming. Wasn't she just in Batman as well?

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## Claude

In fairness, "Dicki" is one of the more pleasing ship-namings. I support if for that reason alone!

Pleased to see Percy and Schmidt bringing in a lot of colour, too.

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## Claude

> Off topic:
> When Dick ran into Gordon while filling in for Bruce recently, Gordon merely said  youre the other him.
> I thought it was well established that Gordon knew their secret identities while HE was Batman.


I'm never sure how much this is a popular view in fandom, but I really think any idea other than Gordon knowing Batman and Nightwing's secret identities is unsupportable. But he'd never admit it, to them or anyone else.

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## Godlike13

Oh, ya. Gordan knows.

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## Badou

There are so many other potiental love interests out there that could be used and to use one that is traditionally one for Bruce just feels unnecessary and kind of icky.

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## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yeah bring back Roberta The Girl Wonder, Edie Of Gotham High, Marjory Davenport, Vera Lovely, Lanya, etc. I wish one comic book writer would give Dick Grayson back his Robin Golden Age stories in the same way that has been done for Batman but everything is some new trope that won’t stick like Bludhaven being a Casino City

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## Vinsanity

> Just from that interaction it feels like he's a villain that wants Vicki for himself.


Ewwww cause I can totally imagine that or maybe he hates 'Fake News'




> In fairness, "Dicki" is one of the more pleasing ship-namings. I support if for that reason alone!
> 
> Pleased to see Percy and Schmidt bringing in a lot of colour, too.


I'm on board with this ship now. That name is awesome

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## oasis1313

> I like them being brothers. Just like two kids who lost their parents grew up together with a true father figure Alfred.


You weren't reading the Golden Age stories in 1950 like I was.  Bruce was an adolescent pipe-smoker back then  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile: .

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## L.H.

I enjoyed the Annual. 
The Dark Web storyline is going deeper, ant getting more and more interesting. I like all the stuffs Percy/Babs is giving him, and also the Nightwing/Batgirl interactions are good as usual. Good art and great colors. There are some fun scenes and, although he is still against technology, I like his Dick: confident and smart. 
And now, the greatest motorcycle race in the Cosmos!

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## Lazurus33

A know a woman likes you when she gives you a semi truck.

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## yohyoi

Some people in Twitter are complaining Nightwing has become Tumblr. What have our fandom become? War in every corner.

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## Onthetrapeze

> I enjoyed the Annual. 
> The Dark Web storyline is going deeper, ant getting more and more interesting. I like all the stuffs Percy/Babs is giving him, and also the Nightwing/Batgirl interactions are good as usual. Good art and great colors. There are some fun scenes and, although he is still against technology, I like his Dick: confident and smart. 
> And now, the greatest motorcycle race in the Cosmos!


Yeah, I think Percy successfully catched some traits of Dick in this issue. He is chatty, charming and calm. Percy's run is getting better and better.
But I think Percy is pushing Dickbabs a little over the top. How could Brabara know Dick better than Bruce and Alfred？She might be the girl who knows him the best if we don't count Donna in.

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## Onthetrapeze

> Some people in Twitter are complaining Nightwing has become Tumblr. What have our fandom become? War in every corner.


What does that mean？Do they mean Nightwing's run feels like a Tumblr meme or something？I am confused.

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## byrd156

> Some people in Twitter are complaining Nightwing has become Tumblr. What have our fandom become? War in every corner.


Become Tumblr? Like Burnside?

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## Drako

I don't get it either. Actually liked the annual.

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## L.H.

> How could Brabara know Dick better than Bruce and Alfred？She might be the girl who knows him the best if we don't count Donna in.


You're right, but, sadly, I don't think we're going to see the old friendship chemistry between Dick and Donna - not until Abnett is the Titans writer. I really miss their true relationship  :Frown:

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## Aahz

> What does that mean？Do they mean Nightwing's run feels like a Tumblr meme or something？I am confused.


Probably that he is more written like in tumblr fanfics, than like in his older stories.

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## byrd156

> You're right, but, sadly, I don't think we're going to see the old friendship chemistry between Dick and Donna - not until Abnett is the Titans writer. I really miss their true relationship


Their relationship will come back to form eventually. It will be a glorious day getting back to square one of character development.

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## Godlike13

> Yeah, I think Percy successfully catched some traits of Dick in this issue. He is chatty, charming and calm. Percy's run is getting better and better.
> But I think Percy is pushing Dickbabs a little over the top. How could Brabara know Dick better than Bruce and Alfred？She might be the girl who knows him the best if we don't count Donna in.


Well It’s Dicks opinion that Babs knows him best. You don’t necessarily have to agree. I’d argue the Babs knows Dick as a man better then Alfred or even Bruce, because part of Dick journey into manhood was to distance himself from Bruce. Where with Babs he wanted her to know him as a man, If you get what I mean. Though Bruce could still very well be the person that knows him best. Dick might just not want to see that. That’s a very common parent/child issue.

Donna now is unfortunately too irrelevant, and inconsistent in general. Back in the day, ya she’d be in contention, not so much now adays. Which is sad. Starfire though. Well that’s an interesting case. Though they haven’t really been around one another for good while, and I’m not sure Starfire ever really got to know his Bat side.

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## yohyoi

Today is so fun. I read people arguing whether Dick has been written well since the New 52. Some said yes. Some said no. One or two were saying he was never written well. This had been a blast.

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

Idk, the past few weeks have been... meh at times. Other fans can make it hard to be positive about things. But. The motorcycle race is going to be epic, and I'm definitely excited for that.

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## Drako

New Clip from Young Justice season 3 with our boy

https://mobile.twitter.com/YJWiki/st...56030533353473


And...

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## Godlike13

Oh ****, Oracle. That’s cool.

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## Rac7d*

> Oh ****, Oracle. That’s cool.


they are so endgame

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## Onthetrapeze

> Well It’s Dicks opinion that Babs knows him best. You don’t necessarily have to agree. I’d argue the Babs knows Dick as a man better then Alfred or even Bruce, because part of Dick journey into manhood was to distance himself from Bruce. Where with Babs he wanted her to know him as a man, If you get what I mean. Though Bruce could still very well be the person that knows him best. Dick might just not want to see that. That’s a very common parent/child issue.
> 
> Donna now is unfortunately too irrelevant, and inconsistent in general. Back in the day, ya she’d be in contention, not so much now adays. Which is sad. Starfire though. Well that’s an interesting case. Though they haven’t really been around one another for good while, and I’m not sure Starfire ever really got to know his Bat side.


I got what you mean. That's why I think Percy was trying too hard to push Dickbabs--If he described it as Barbara knows Dick better than others on some aspects the statement would've been more convincing. Besides, I'd still argue just as Starfire doesn't know Dick's Bat side, Barbara doesn't know his Titan side either. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Onthetrapeze

> One or two were saying he was never written well.


then DC must be incredibly good at marketing. Being a comic company is such a waste of their true talent.

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## byrd156

> I got what you mean. That's why I think Percy was trying too hard to push Dickbabs--If he described it as Barbara knows Dick better than others on some aspects the statement would've been more convincing. Besides, I'd still argue just as Starfire doesn't know Dick's Bat side, Barbara doesn't know his Titan side either.


That's how I always viewed the two. Knowing certain parts of Dick but never whole thing. Donna and Wally (along with Bruce, Tim, and Alfred) know Dick completely I think.

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## Restingvoice

> What does that mean？Do they mean Nightwing's run feels like a Tumblr meme or something？I am confused.





> Become Tumblr? Like Burnside?


Obsessed with cereal, working out his butt... stuffs that Tumblr like to emphasize... the concern was making canon what's supposed to be just fandom fun and joke, but others also say that one page is simply fanservice and nothing serious.

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## byrd156

> Obsessed with cereal, working out his butt... stuffs that Tumblr like to emphasize... the concern was making canon what's supposed to be just fandom fun and joke, but others also say that one page is simply fanservice and nothing serious.


I didn't read it at the time when I posted, I get it now.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

One step forward, two steps back. Dammit DC.

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## Godlike13

Seems like a rather petty complaint if you ask me.

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## Drako

> Seems like a rather petty complaint if you ask me.


I agree.
They are complaining about one page.

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## oasis1313

Young Justice:  Nightwing starts wearing a feedbag instead of a mask.  Okay.

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## disillusion386

> Young Justice:  Nightwing starts wearing a feedbag instead of a mask.  Okay.


It reminds me of the winter soldier. Starts out with a domino mask, then changes to the mouth cover.

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## Lazurus33

Nightwing #48 variant

large-6477889.jpg

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## Badou

I like Rocafort's art but that variant seems a bit lazy. Like he thought about doing something different and then just decided to put a big Nightwing image in front of everything even obscuring some of the smaller Nightwings he drew in the back.

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## Rac7d*

> Young Justice:  Nightwing starts wearing a feedbag instead of a mask.  Okay.

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## Onthetrapeze

> I like Rocafort's art but that variant seems a bit lazy. Like he thought about doing something different and then just decided to put a big Nightwing image in front of everything even obscuring some of the smaller Nightwings he drew in the back.


The cover looks like a poster of a martial artist's biography movie. Kongfu Master Nightwing huh？

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## oasis1313

> Nightwing #48 variant
> 
> large-6477889.jpg


I keep thinking of Ash in the "Army of Darkness" movie when I see this variant.

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## byrd156

> I keep thinking of Ash in the "Army of Darkness" movie when I see this variant.


That would be cool to see Dick in an homage poster of Army of Darkness.

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## oasis1313

> That would be cool to see Dick in an homage poster of Army of Darkness.


Dick could be Good Ass--I mean--Ash.

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## byrd156

> Dick could be Good Ass--I mean--Ash.


Lol, I would love to see an Elseworld with Dick as Ash.

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## yoloveyo

Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
img-13e9ffae1f0fe61ea5ca15e690ac0806.jpg

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## byrd156

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


So what's with shaving the Batkid's heads? Tim in Arkham Knight, Jason's redesign, and now now Dick. What the hell?

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## yoloveyo

I think he's got a head injury.

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## byrd156

> I think he's got a head injury.


Well yeah the Nightwing shaped wound is a dead give away. I'm just curious what the exact damage is and whats it from? Was something cut out, did he fall, etc?

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## yoloveyo

> Well yeah the Nightwing shaped wound is a dead give away. I'm just curious what the exact damage is and whats it from? Was something cut out, did he fall, etc?


He's Flying Grayson，maybe the writers trying to get him to fall from a very high altitude. It's like some kind of irony, or even sick taste?
Well, I don't know, just wait for this issue.

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## berserkerclaw

I hope kings plans dont mess up nw solo too much

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## oasis1313

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


Going butch?

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## Godlike13

So not a robot arm, lol.

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## Hilden B. Lade

> So not a robot arm, lol.


Maybe he gets a special chip implanted into his head that turns Nightwing into a super cyborg fighter, like the movie Upgrade.

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## Pohzee

Could be an interesting idea, but I'm sure Percy will make sure that it isn't. His writing REALLY rubs me the wrong way.

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## Flashback

> That's how I always viewed the two. Knowing certain parts of Dick but never whole thing. Donna and Wally (along with Bruce, Tim, and Alfred) know Dick completely I think.


I know that this is a few days old (sorry about that), but wasn't Wally trapped in the speed force for a couple of years in this timeline, I mean I don't even think he was their when Dick transitioned to Nightwing. Not to say that Wally isn't Dick's best friend but it kinda bothered me how after years of Wally being trapped, he suddenly comes back and their still tight as ever. 

Anyway, I'm glad that their BF once again but I find Donna and Dick's current friendship (meaning that the two of them are still friends but not suddenly bff) more natural in this timeline.

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## Armor of God

Well, I wouldn't rule out the arm either, DC does have an obsession with Winter Soldier and KG Beast lost his arm thanks to Batman. I know he cut it off himself but due to a fight with Batman so wouldn't surprise me if he takes his revenge out on Dick.

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## RedBird

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


If it is in fact a head injury I wonder if they will use it in the narrative to impair Dick and give him an added struggle, or equip him with some kind of enhancements like Babs and her walking chip. Though considering the recent story arc I wouldnt be surprised if any enhancements would then be 'corrupted' down the road for added conflict.

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## Godlike13

According to solics he has vertigo.

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## RedBird

> According to solics he has vertigo.


So dizziness and balance issues for the 'Flying Grayson'. If that's the case, methinks this will be used to explore prior traumatic memories of his parents and Dicks belief in himself and his capabilities as a vigilante. That is if it doesn't go the cyborg route.

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## byrd156

> I know that this is a few days old (sorry about that), but wasn't Wally trapped in the speed force for a couple of years in this timeline, I mean I don't even think he was their when Dick transitioned to Nightwing. Not to say that Wally isn't Dick's best friend but it kinda bothered me how after years of Wally being trapped, he suddenly comes back and their still tight as ever. 
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad that their BF once again but I find Donna and Dick's current friendship (meaning that the two of them are still friends but not suddenly bff) more natural in this timeline.


When I talk about these characters I pretty much just refer to their Pre-flashpoint versions and no the watered down characterizations we have right now.

How is their friendship more natural this time around? If anything it's more forced, suddenly they all remember each other and that they had a history as apposed to growing up as the first generation of sidekicks. Growing and fighting alongside each other growing up.

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## byrd156

> So dizziness and balance issues for the 'Flying Grayson'. If that's the case, methinks this will be used to explore prior traumatic memories of his parents and Dicks belief in himself and his capabilities as a vigilante. That is if it doesn't go the cyborg route.


So basically the "Fear of Victory" from BTAS. I love that episode and just rewatched it a couple nights ago.

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## oasis1313

> If it is in fact a head injury I wonder if they will use it in the narrative to impair Dick and give him an added struggle, or equip him with some kind of enhancements like Babs and her walking chip. Though considering the recent story arc I wouldnt be surprised if any enhancements would then be 'corrupted' down the road for added conflict.


It looks like Dick needs to be enhanced with a big vat of Rogaine.

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## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


Where is this from?

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## yoloveyo

> Where is this from?



I saw it on DCCOMICS.COM.
But it has been removed.
Maybe it's an unintentional mistake and they didn't want to spoil it so early?

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## KurtW95

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


Just horrible. That look better not last.

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## DragonPiece

> Just horrible. That look better not last.


Yeah, looks like a completely different character. Definitely worried for what they plan on doing.

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## Godlike13

He looks hurt. Thats not the worse thing from a story point perspective. And honestly with King, I can see him coming up with Dick having to deal with PCS or something.

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## Onthetrapeze

> Just horrible. That look better not last.


I think it is a temporary thing. Just checked the cover of Nightwing #51 and #52:
IMG_2087.jpg

IMG_2086.jpg
Maybe the new haircut is just for hype？

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## byrd156

Well Dick getting some kind of Vertigo injury and then getting attacked by Scarecrow just makes a lot of sense to play up Dick overcoming said injury. Which is basically a long form "Fear of Victory". That doesn't seem too far off.

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## Badou

The whole thing just screams of them wanting to make him even more like Daredevil. They need to beat him down and give him some disability to work through. It is all so unappealing. 

I mean has any story where they damaged or maimed a character ever worked out well? Most seem to be regarded as bad or not very good.

----------


## byrd156

> The whole thing just screams of them wanting to make him even more like Daredevil. They need to beat him down and give him some disability to work through. It is all so unappealing. 
> 
> I mean has any story where they damaged or maimed a character ever worked out well? Most seem to be regarded as bad or not very good.


Knightfall is fantastic.

----------


## byrd156

So did the mods ever find out if the huge thread size was the issue with the boards?

----------


## DragonPiece

> I think it is a temporary thing. Just checked the cover of Nightwing #51 and #52:
> IMG_2087.jpg
> 
> IMG_2086.jpg
> Maybe the new haircut is just for hype？


Possible, that or these covers were misdirection, because they already are, since we know he is supposed to have some type of injury.

----------


## dietrich

> Oh man, have you seen this #50 cover?
> Attachment 70204


Gritty! 
And stubble to boot.

----------


## Restingvoice

The haircut is to make the head operation easier. His hair will grow out again in time, we just don't know how much time will pass.

----------


## Badou

> Knightfall is fantastic.


Guess I was never big on Knightfall.

----------


## Drako

So... this is the new Nightwing direction.
I'm so over Tom King and his Real world trauma being shoved into the DC universe.

At least this one is easier to resolve.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/09...erse-spoilers/

----------


## yohyoi

Another amnesia plotline... How much can you recycle a trope until your readers want to get amnesia?! It's all self-fulfilling.

----------


## byrd156

> So... this is the new Nightwing direction.
> I'm so over Tom King and his Real world trauma being shoved into the DC universe.
> 
> At least this one is easier to resolve.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/09...erse-spoilers/


Wow this sounds good.

He said sarcastically.

----------


## Pohzee

> So... this is the new Nightwing direction.
> I'm so over Tom King and his Real world trauma being shoved into the DC universe.
> 
> At least this one is easier to resolve.
> 
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/09...erse-spoilers/


If King were actually writing the Nightwing series I would trust him to do this properly. No one else, especially current creative teams. Percy is as tactful as a sledgehammer and I've reached a point where I can no longer remotely stomach poorly written, over expository narration boxes that I expect to fill the arc.

----------


## dietrich

I like the idea of Bane going after Dick but I don't like the idea of amnesia.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

I imagine the plotline going as Dick quits the superhero world due to his amnesia and has to interact with the "strangers" around him to find out who he was, without knowing their undercover identities...

It would be a great chance to explore the real world side of superheroes. But I agree that kind of stories seem to suit King's writing style more than Percy's. That being said, I am still looking forward to see what could Percy do.

----------


## Badou

> I like the idea of Bane going after Dick but I don't like the idea of amnesia.


Problem is that I think Bane is only going after Dick to set up stories for Bruce while Dick is left with the consequences of it. King has already used Dick and the Robins as fodder for Bane before. It isn't like they are setting up Bane and Dick to have some amazing arc and showdown built around the two of them. It is the same as Dick's use in John's Forever Evil event. He was there just to motivate Bruce to go after the CSA and things like exposing his identity to the world were in service to the Forever Evil story rather than being a big planned set up for Dick. That ended up working out for the better because while DC tried to sweep the identity thing under the rug we lucked out and got the Grayson series from it. I guess we have to hope that we luck out again and the injury thing leads to something half as good as Grayson, but I don't know.

----------


## Moonwix

you are right . these are also my thoughts in this matter. I'm not sure it  leads to anything positive as long as Dick is still in bludhaven.  I have no confident  with Percy writing nightwing at all ,  I really want him of the book , I gave up on his nightwing at issue 44. It looks like he would make even more mess of the character with this concept.

----------


## Drako

Batman # 54 Preview! 

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.p...91&postcount=1

----------


## Godlike13

New interview, 
https://www.monkeysfightingrobots.co...-nightwing-48/

----------


## Rac7d*

Nightwing is up for the next death battle against daredevil

I hope yall support him this time I spammed that superhero beatdown to get nightwing to win against winter soildier

----------


## Drako

> Nightwing is up for the next death battle against daredevil
> 
> I hope yall support him this time I spammed that superhero beatdown to get nightwing to win against winter soildier


That's not how Death Battle works. You can't vote on this one.

----------


## byrd156

> That's not how Death Battle works. You can't vote on this one.


Yeah its all about generalizing the character's history into stats and comparing.

I just hope they don't use the crappy New 52 Robin or Nightwing costumes when doing the montage.

----------


## Drako

> Yeah its all about generalizing the character's history into stats and comparing.
> 
> I just hope they don't use the crappy New 52 Robin or Nightwing costumes when doing the montage.


Will be the first Death Battle in Live Action, actually.
With the guy from that Nightwing Youtube series.

----------


## byrd156

> Will be the first Death Battle in Live Action, actually.
> With the guy from that Nightwing Youtube series.


Ismahawk? And I mean when they show footage and comic panels when describing history and powers. Not the fight itself. Ex. the first 12 minutes.

----------


## adrikito

> New interview, 
> https://www.monkeysfightingrobots.co...-nightwing-48/


Thanks for the interview.

----------


## Drako

Batman # 56 Variant Cover by Francesco Mattina

----------


## byrd156

> Batman # 56 Variant Cover by Francesco Mattina


The black outlines around the symbol is a very cool detail.

----------


## RedBird

> Batman # 56 Variant Cover by Francesco Mattina


DAMN Thats looks amazing! I think one of my favorite covers by Mattina thus far.

----------


## adrikito

> batman # 56 variant cover by francesco mattina


excellent variant.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That's not how Death Battle works. You can't vote on this one.


would it matter you guys didnt vote or belive he could win the last time

----------


## CPSparkles

> Batman # 56 Variant Cover by Francesco Mattina


Oh this is awesome. batman 54 didn't like how Dick was written it was off.

It was a sentimental story both I felt like it was just setting me up before the big hurt.

----------


## The Whovian

> Batman # 56 Variant Cover by Francesco Mattina


Whoa!! That is awesome!!

----------


## berserkerclaw

So cool. I love that cover

----------


## Rac7d*

I would have waited for the variant if I had known

----------


## Armor of God

Bleeding Cool thinks Percy will leave the book by December.

----------


## Pohzee

> Bleeding Cool thinks Percy will leave the book by December.


Fingers crossed.

I should be annoyed in theory by the fact that Nightwing can't seem to nail down a consistent creator, yet I always seem to celebrate because I never like the current writer.

So here's to hoping we get someone good.

----------


## Pohzee

Oh but boo at this been a looong term status quo. Still skeptical

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

That long term status quo was a major turnoff, is it possible to change the status quo and not have it happen because of something that happens in another book or it always hurting him? Like can Dick Grayson win the lottery and that be his status quo change? In Star Spangled Comics 69 & 72 (1947) He Discovers Island, can one of those accomplishments or both be retconned back in? Not every comic Book should be grim dark

----------


## Jackalope89

Poor Dick just wants a hug.

----------


## HsssH

I think that whenever someone comes up with idea for a hero to have his own city then everyone automatically starts thinking about Gotham or Metropolis and how cool would be if his favourite character would also have his own special city that would rival Gotham. But it never works out like that. Over the years millions of hours have been poured into Gotham in various media formats and you can't compete with that. Even if Didio tomorrow decided that Nightwing is actually his favourite character and he'd put top talent on his book... it still wouldn't really work. Look at some bigger characters than Nightwing, many of them have barely functional cities that could be replaced easily with anything else and some of them still have nothing. There is nothing sadder than creative team wasting time on creating and designing new city when everyone understands that 99% of that work will be thrown away by the time next creative team/direction is picked. 

It also doesn't help that Nightwing _is_ similar to Batman so his city is bound to be similar to Gotham. Chances are that if someone comes up with cool idea for Bludhaven then it could work just as well, if not better, for Gotham. In other words, Agent Nightwing or bust.

Also, I don't really understand whats the problem with Nightwing not being in Justice League? To me, only founding members really matter and Nightwing is not going to be that. So what, he'd get placed on a team for couple of years and what would that exactly do for him? Plenty of characters had their time there and I don't feel like it matters anymore that someone is/was a member of Justice League. So I feel like the problem here is that some writers start big leaguing Dick because he is not on JL, but that probably could be turned into decent story arc with Dick showing that he doesn't need JL and he is his own man.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think that whenever someone comes up with idea for a hero to have his own city then everyone automatically starts thinking about Gotham or Metropolis and how cool would be if his favourite character would also have his own special city that would rival Gotham. But it never works out like that. Over the years millions of hours have been poured into Gotham in various media formats and you can't compete with that. Even if Didio tomorrow decided that Nightwing is actually his favourite character and he'd put top talent on his book... it still wouldn't really work. Look at some bigger characters than Nightwing, many of them have barely functional cities that could be replaced easily with anything else and some of them still have nothing. There is nothing sadder than creative team wasting time on creating and designing new city when everyone understands that 99% of that work will be thrown away by the time next creative team/direction is picked. 
> 
> It also doesn't help that Nightwing _is_ similar to Batman so his city is bound to be similar to Gotham. Chances are that if someone comes up with cool idea for Bludhaven then it could work just as well, if not better, for Gotham. In other words, Agent Nightwing or bust.
> 
> Also, I don't really understand whats the problem with Nightwing not being in Justice League? To me, only founding members really matter and Nightwing is not going to be that. So what, he'd get placed on a team for couple of years and what would that exactly do for him? Plenty of characters had their time there and I don't feel like it matters anymore that someone is/was a member of Justice League. So I feel like the problem here is that some writers start big leaguing Dick because he is not on JL, but that probably could be turned into decent story arc with Dick showing that he doesn't need JL and he is his own man.


Maybe Ric will be a blessing in disguise, who knows?  "Grayson" certainly was.  After the initial shock of this, I'm probably trying to rationalize, but I keep hoping (maybe in vain) we've got nowhere to go now but "up."  Is the next Nightwing book coming out tomorrow?

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

On the "only the founding members matter" thing: things could just get retconned to a Superfriends-y timeline where Dick was an official and regular ally of the JL even as Robin before he formed the Teen Titans with his protege buddies. In which case, Dick would've been the youngest and yet one of the original Leaguers. So it'd be less of a upward climb up the stairs for him and more like opening the door to something he's entitled to. Not that DC would ever do this. 

Anyways, you'd think for a publisher that values a singular IP like Batman as much as it does, they'd want to skew the focus on the JL teams by having Bruce and Dick on the team at once. It'd immediately shift the focus away from the Trinity to the Dynamic Duo, and therefore a tighter focus on Batman. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing that they haven't had this idea yet lol.

----------


## oasis1313

> On the "only the founding members matter" thing: things could just get retconned to a Superfriends-y timeline where Dick was an official and regular ally of the JL even as Robin before he formed the Teen Titans with his protege buddies. In which case, Dick would've been the youngest and yet one of the original Leaguers. So it'd be less of a upward climb up the stairs for him and more like opening the door to something he's entitled to. Not that DC would ever do this. 
> 
> Anyways, you'd think for a publisher that values a singular IP like Batman as much as it does, they'd want to skew the focus on the JL teams by having Bruce and Dick on the team at once. It'd immediately shift the focus away from the Trinity to the Dynamic Duo, and therefore a tighter focus on Batman. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing that they haven't had this idea yet lol.


I wish you were DC's Publisher!  By the DC's logic, Nightwing can't be on the JL because Batman is there.  Batman is not a meta human.  It's okay to have two Green Lanterns on the League.  It's okay to have Green Arrow on the League and he is not a meta.  The truth is that Nightwing is not on the Justice League because of the editorial bias against the character.

----------


## Ascended

> On the "only the founding members matter" thing: things could just get retconned to a Superfriends-y timeline where Dick was an official and regular ally of the JL even as Robin before he formed the Teen Titans with his protege buddies. In which case, Dick would've been the youngest and yet one of the original Leaguers. So it'd be less of a upward climb up the stairs for him and more like opening the door to something he's entitled to. Not that DC would ever do this.


I've had similar thoughts. If Dick went with Bruce on some League missions, even if Robin wasn't an official member, he'd still have held a certain status. And the first time he saves a Leaguer's life? He's got a spot on the team whenever he's ready and wants it. 

Hasn't Bruce brought Damian onto the Watchtower, if not even a mission or three? And after all the things the League has been through? If so I could totally see a younger, less experienced Bruce bringing his sidekick out with the League on a lower-risk mission for training.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I wish you were DC's Publisher!  By the DC's logic, Nightwing can't be on the JL because Batman is there.  Batman is not a meta human.  It's okay to have two Green Lanterns on the League.  It's okay to have Green Lantern on the League and he is not a meta.  The truth is that Nightwing is not on the Justice League because of the editorial bias against the character.


DC's logic is actually very sound if they don't want Nightwing on the same team as Batman. Either he's going to be redundant with Batman already there, an extension of Batman, or a placeholder until Batman inevitably comes back. He deserves better than that. For once, DC's bias against him is actually doing him a favor by preventing that from happening.

----------


## Badou

> Also, I don't really understand whats the problem with Nightwing not being in Justice League? To me, only founding members really matter and Nightwing is not going to be that. So what, he'd get placed on a team for couple of years and what would that exactly do for him? Plenty of characters had their time there and I don't feel like it matters anymore that someone is/was a member of Justice League. So I feel like the problem here is that some writers start big leaguing Dick because he is not on JL, but that probably could be turned into decent story arc with Dick showing that he doesn't need JL and he is his own man.


I feel the opposite. The way DC has structured the DCU everything funnels through the JL now. It is the team that dictates the roles of all heroes in the DCU and the team that deals with all the threats involved in the DCU first and foremost. Every single event spawns from the JL now too. Unless it is a niche team like the Suicide Squad (which is only relevant because of Harley) I don't see another hero team, like the Titans, ever finding their own unique place with any weight to it when they are too old to tell proper Titans stories with but too irrelevant to be anything close to the JL. DC has basically folded the Titans into the JL because they don't know what to do with them. The Titans work out of the JL headquarters, let the JL control and add members to their team, and JL treats them like lesser heroes to JL members all without any of the Titans being actual JL members. I don't think this situation is sustainable and either you will need to have someone like Dick become a full JL member to make them working in the JL viable or get Dick the fuck out of the Titans and away from this situation because it is damaging his character. 

The main reason I want Dick to be a full JL member (not just him filling in for Batman on occasion) is to give him that notch in his belt. DC treats the JL like the big leagues and I don't think Dick as a hero will ever be taken completely seriously as an adult without it given how DC has built their universe. Basically DC has turned the JL into the Avengers. They are the gatekeepers. So if that is what they are doing then I want them to fully embrace the Avengers concept. Expand their roster and let heroes like Dick have a place there. 

I don't even care if Dick appears in the JL book. That isn't the point. It is about him not being treated like a child the way he was in Abnetts Titans ever again and looked down on for not being a JL member. That scene where Dick bent over and let the JL break up the Titans with Dick crying to Bruce about disappointing him was one of the most frustrating things I've ever read in a comic ever. I am absolutely sick of Dick being looked down on and being looked at as less than 2nd or 3rd string JL heroes because he isn't allowed in the JL for being too young or Batman is already there. I've had enough of it. So either get Dick the fuck out of the Titans (we know this can't happen) or give him the weight of being a JL member to at least make the current set up feasible. 

Basically Dick can just appear in the Titans book, but if that book and team is going to operate out of the JL and be influenced by the JL then you need to change things. So I'd have Dick, and maybe one other Titan, like Wally, Donna or Starfire, become full JL members where they are looked at and treated as JL members but they still operate and run the Titans team themselves. So if there is a JL meeting Dick should be there with the other heroes, but he goes on missions with the Titans and run the team in conjunction with the JL. So like how Wolverine was still an X-Man but also worked with the Avegners.

----------


## Badou

> DC's logic is actually very sound if they don't want Nightwing on the same team as Batman. Either he's going to be redundant with Batman already there, an extension of Batman, or a placeholder until Batman inevitably comes back. He deserves better than that. For once, DC's bias against him is actually doing him a favor by preventing that from happening.


He's is already made redundant by not even being in the JL though! Batman and the JL made Dick disband the Titans, took Donna to look after her, and now even added members to the Titans to watch over the Titans for the JL. This isn't even including how Dick gets dragged back to Gotham to be shot in the head and used as a prop to fuel Batman's ongoing story, or how Dick and the Titans are used as fodder in any event that DC wants. Things are already as bad as they can get and he isn't even a JL member.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> He's is already made redundant by not even being in the JL though! Batman and the JL made Dick disband the Titans, took Donna to look after her, and now even added members to the Titans to watch over the Titans for the JL. This isn't even including how Dick gets dragged back to Gotham to be shot in the head and used as a prop to fuel Batman's ongoing story, or how Dick and the Titans are used as fodder in any event that DC wants. Things are already as bad as they can get and he isn't even a JL member.


So putting him on the JL, which is set in stone in even wider pop culture as being Batman's team, is going to make things better for him? He'll just be Batman-lite, instead he'll be doing it with the JL instead of in Bludhaven. Why have Batman-lite on the Justice League when you can just have Batman, who is there 99% of the time anyway?

All the other stuff sucks hardcore, and has no easy solutions, but giving him a pity spot on the JL while daddy is away/to represent the Batman mythos when it already gets more than enough representation there is not going to help him much in the long run either.

----------


## byrd156

> I feel the opposite. The way DC has structured the DCU everything funnels through the JL now. It is the team that dictates the roles of all heroes in the DCU and the team that deals with all the threats involved in the DCU first and foremost. Every single event spawns from the JL now too. Unless it is a niche team like the Suicide Squad (which is only relevant because of Harley) I don't see another hero team, like the Titans, ever finding their own unique place with any weight to it when they are too old to tell proper Titans stories with but too irrelevant to be anything close to the JL. DC has basically folded the Titans into the JL because they don't know what to do with them. The Titans work out of the JL headquarters, let the JL control and add members to their team, and JL treats them like lesser heroes to JL members all without any of the Titans being actual JL members. I don't think this situation is sustainable and either you will need to have someone like Dick become a full JL member to make them working in the JL viable or get Dick the fuck out of the Titans and away from this situation because it is damaging his character. 
> 
> The main reason I want Dick to be a full JL member (not just him filling in for Batman on occasion) is to give him that notch in his belt. DC treats the JL like the big leagues and I don't think Dick as a hero will ever be taken completely seriously as an adult without it given how DC has built their universe. Basically DC has turned the JL into the Avengers. They are the gatekeepers. So if that is what they are doing then I want them to fully embrace the Avengers concept. Expand their roster and let heroes like Dick have a place there. 
> 
> I don't even care if Dick appears in the JL book. That isn't the point. It is about him not being treated like a child the way he was in Abnetts Titans ever again and looked down on for not being a JL member. That scene where Dick bent over and let the JL break up the Titans with Dick crying to Bruce about disappointing him was one of the most frustrating things I've ever read in a comic ever. I am absolutely sick of Dick being looked down on and being looked at as less than 2nd or 3rd string JL heroes because he isn't allowed in the JL for being too young or Batman is already there. I've had enough of it. So either get Dick the fuck out of the Titans (we know this can't happen) or give him the weight of being a JL member to at least make the current set up feasible. 
> 
> Basically Dick can just appear in the Titans book, but if that book and team is going to operate out of the JL and be influenced by the JL then you need to change things. So I'd have Dick, and maybe one other Titan, like Wally, Donna or Starfire, become full JL members where they are looked at and treated as JL members but they still operate and run the Titans team themselves. So if there is a JL meeting Dick should be there with the other heroes, but he goes on missions with the Titans and run the team in conjunction with the JL. So like how Wolverine was still an X-Man but also worked with the Avegners.


The problem really is the higher ups, they hold the JLA on a pedestal that no one can go near unless they are invited so to speak. It's an overall shift change that you can literally see in the writing.




My personal favorite story JLA/Titans the Technis Imperative shows the JLA and Titans as equals. They challenge them when questioned and even fight back, the treatment of these characters as pushovers and ineffectual is recent BS that is so stupid.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

There really is no way around the fact that the JL will be the top dogs in the DCU (and as the most prolific and independent characters, that's not hard to see why), but this bullshit with the Titans being subservient to them even in-universe needs to stop. We need less associations with the League, not more. And no regular associations with the generations coming up behind them. The Young Justice crew have their own name, don't pass Titans down to them or Damian's group. Let the latter come up with their own name.

----------


## Badou

> So putting him on the JL, which is set in stone in even wider pop culture as being Batman's team, is going to make things better for him? He'll just be Batman-lite, instead he'll be doing it with the JL instead of in Bludhaven. Why have Batman-lite on the Justice League when you can just have Batman, who is there 99% of the time anyway?
> 
> All the other stuff sucks hardcore, and has no easy solutions, but giving him a pity spot on the JL while daddy is away/to represent the Batman mythos when it already gets more than enough representation there is not going to help him much in the long run either.


Again, not what I am talking about. I don't want Dick to "fill in" for Bruce while he is gone from the JL. I want him to have his own spot at the table there while Bruce is also there. It isn't about trying to change the JL to make it Dick's team or even have Dick be a large part of the JL, but if the JL is the team DC has decided that runs and controls basically how all the heroes operate in the DCU then I think Dick should have a place there. He could be on the JL to represent the Titans if you want similar to how Wolverine was an Avenger to represent the X-Men and no one thinks of Wolverine when they think Avengers. He's still an X-Man first. 

I mean why have multiple Green Lanterns on the JL? Why have both Hawkman and Hawkwoman on the JL? Why add Warmachine to the Avengers when they already have Ironman? Why have Spiderwoman on the Avengers when Spider-man is there? If we have established that Dick filling in for Bruce doesn't work, and that Dick being a Titan on his own doesn't work when the JL basically has massive influence on the Titans anyway, then why not try having both Dick and Bruce on the JL at the same time each with their own reasons?

----------


## Badou

> The problem really is the higher ups, they hold the JLA on a pedestal that no one can go near unless they are invited so to speak. It's an overall shift change that you can literally see in the writing.
> 
> My personal favorite story JLA/Titans the Technis Imperative shows the JLA and Titans as equals. They challenge them when questioned and even fight back, the treatment of these characters as pushovers and ineffectual is recent BS that is so stupid.


That was back when Wally was on the JLA though. The JLA as a team was much more open to other heroes and generations then and not as closed off. Not operating as some gatekeepers. Also the Titans weren't too far removed from being a relevant team still from their NTT days. I just don't see the Titans getting back to being a relevant team or DC moving the JL from their current position. The bottom pages are what I expect DC views the Titans going forward more than the top one.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Again, not what I am talking about. I don't want Dick to "fill in" for Bruce while he is gone from the JL. I want him to have his own spot at the table there while Bruce is also there. It isn't about trying to change the JL to make it Dick's team or even have Dick be a large part of the JL, but if the JL is the team DC has decided that runs and controls basically how all the heroes operate in the DCU then I think Dick should have a place there. He could be on the JL to represent the Titans if you want similar to how Wolverine was an Avenger to represent the X-Men and no one thinks of Wolverine when they think Avengers. He's still an X-Man first. 
> 
> I mean why have multiple Green Lanterns on the JL? Why have both Hawkman and Hawkwoman on the JL? Why add Warmachine to the Avengers when they already have Ironman? Why have Spiderwoman on the Avengers when Spider-man is there? If we have established that Dick filling in for Bruce doesn't work, and that Dick being a Titan on his own doesn't work when the JL basically has massive influence on the Titans anyway, then why not try having both Dick and Bruce on the JL at the same time each with their own reasons?


Wolverine doesn't have a former and more popular mentor that his narrative depends on seated with the Avengers. He represents the X-Men, but the X-Men are a completely separate franchise that, if need be, could exist in their own universe away from the rest of Marvel. The same can never be said for the Titans. He's on there because he's extremely popular on his own and they like to spread him around, it would not be a desperate measure like it would be for Nightwing  Representing them on the League doesn't seem like a good idea if we want the Titans to be as independent as possible. Aiming for Warmachine level of relevance doesn't sound ideal either. As for the other examples, multiple GLs is its own source of contention, Spider-Woman has never been related to Spider-Man, and Hawkman and Hawkwoman have always functioned as a unit even more so than Batman and Robin. And Dick isn't Robin anymore.

There have been a sea of faces in the JL who float in and out and never become A-list. Dick would just be one more of those at worst, an extension of Batman at best. What massive influence do the JL have on the Titans? Aside from the original five members being former sidekicks (and who, as a unit, are not even historically the most popular/iconic iteration of the group), there are no inherent connections between the two groups. The Titans have their own superhumans, lore and rogues gallery. They need fresh ideas for all of those, _desperately_, but any influence the League has over them should in no way be continued.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think that whenever someone comes up with idea for a hero to have his own city then everyone automatically starts thinking about Gotham or Metropolis and how cool would be if his favourite character would also have his own special city that would rival Gotham. But it never works out like that. Over the years millions of hours have been poured into Gotham in various media formats and you can't compete with that. Even if Didio tomorrow decided that Nightwing is actually his favourite character and he'd put top talent on his book... it still wouldn't really work. Look at some bigger characters than Nightwing, many of them have barely functional cities that could be replaced easily with anything else and some of them still have nothing. There is nothing sadder than creative team wasting time on creating and designing new city when everyone understands that 99% of that work will be thrown away by the time next creative team/direction is picked. 
> 
> It also doesn't help that Nightwing _is_ similar to Batman so his city is bound to be similar to Gotham. Chances are that if someone comes up with cool idea for Bludhaven then it could work just as well, if not better, for Gotham. In other words, Agent Nightwing or bust.
> 
> Also, I don't really understand whats the problem with Nightwing not being in Justice League? To me, only founding members really matter and Nightwing is not going to be that. So what, he'd get placed on a team for couple of years and what would that exactly do for him? Plenty of characters had their time there and I don't feel like it matters anymore that someone is/was a member of Justice League. So I feel like the problem here is that some writers start big leaguing Dick because he is not on JL, but that probably could be turned into decent story arc with Dick showing that he doesn't need JL and he is his own man.


Agent Nightwing or bust! Love it. Until dc stops viewing Nightwing as Batman's sidekick nothing is going to change for the character.

----------


## WonderNight

> I also remember Grayson when I saw the image. 
> 
> I think it's because the art.


yeah this reminds me of Grayson because is looks nightwing, fun and sexy.

----------


## Restingvoice

> For some reason this is reminding me of Grayson. I don't know why.





> I also remember Grayson when I saw the image. 
> 
> I think it's because the art.


Also, he rode a red sports car with Tiger when they're chased by Spyral and wore shades when he got off

----------


## Badou

> Wolverine doesn't have a former and more popular mentor that his narrative depends on seated with the Avengers. He represents the X-Men, but the X-Men are a completely separate franchise that, if need be, could exist in their own universe away from the rest of Marvel. The same can never be said for the Titans. He's on there because he's extremely popular on his own and they like to spread him around, it would not be a desperate measure like it would be for Nightwing  Representing them on the League doesn't seem like a good idea if we want the Titans to be as independent as possible. Aiming for Warmachine level of relevance doesn't sound ideal either. As for the other examples, multiple GLs is its own source of contention, Spider-Woman has never been related to Spider-Man, and Hawkman and Hawkwoman have always functioned as a unit even more so than Batman and Robin. And Dick isn't Robin anymore.
> 
> There have been a sea of faces in the JL who float in and out and never become A-list. Dick would just be one more of those at worst, an extension of Batman at best. What massive influence do the JL have on the Titans? Aside from the original five members being former sidekicks (and who, as a unit, are not even historically the most popular/iconic iteration of the group), there are no inherent connections between the two groups. The Titans have their own superhumans, lore and rogues gallery. They need fresh ideas for all of those, _desperately_, but any influence the League has over them should in no way be continued.


I could add Rogue, Storm, Sunspot, Beast, and Cannonball as X-Men who were Avengers too, but that is getting away from the point. It sounds like you basically want the 80s NTT era Titans to return, which is when they were basically DC's answer to the X-Men, but we've had two reboots since that era and the Titans are as irrelevant as ever. Their most famous stories from then aren't even canon anymore. I don't see that era returning and I don't really want it to. They are adults now and should be looked at and treated as such, but I don't think that can happen with how DC has structured their universe where everything runs through the JL now. It is impossible to erase the JL influence over the Titans, which is never going to go away so the Titans can't be independent the way a JSA could be, so you have to find solutions to work within that or remove Dick from the Titans because it is damaging his character. 

Setting aside how all the founding Titans were sidekicks to the JL members, you have characters like Cyborg that DC took from the Titans and put in the JL because they view the JL as being the far more important property, and value Cyborg more there than in the Titans. Then you have villains in Deathstroke who is easily the most famous Titans villain but DC values him more as being an independent character or a Batman villain now than having him tied to the Titans solely. Then the Titans are used as fodder in any JL event because DC has zero reason to invest much in the Titans when the JL does everything an adult Titans team can do and do it better. 

And it isn't about becoming A-List or making Dick a big JL figure. It is about trying to make the current situation workable and preventing a situation where Dick is looked at for being less of a hero because he isn't a JL member. That is the whole point. Plus Dick as a character is DC's 3rd most published character and has his own solo book. So it isn't like he is some C-list hero that gets bumped up to the JL. Nothing really changes other than the barrier of him never being allowed in the JL while Bruce is there goes away so that can't be used against him. 

Also it has been established that regardless if Dick is on the JL or not the JL and Batman will have massive influence on his team and character. So you elevate a Titans character in Dick where the JL can't talk down to the Titans anymore and the Titans, if even slightly, have someone to represent them on the "major league" team that is the JL instead of constantly being on the outside and punished for not being on their level.

----------


## oasis1313

This all boils down the editors.  If the Annett Titans needed to disband according to Management, I would not accept the writer handing me crap like that.  I remember the Legion of Superheroes having an Espionage Squad.  How about a JL Espionage Squad?  They are full JL members, but operate their own team for things that need to be done quietly and with minimum property damage.

----------


## WonderNight

So what does everyone feel should be Nightwing's direction post RIC. He can't just go back to the same old same old bludhaven Batman lite right? Other wise what's the point.

I'm nervous for dick! He can't get creative team, he can't get a direction, he can't get out of Batman's shadow as long as he's in the batverse, he can't be a premier hero on the AAA farm team titans and the Batfamily is bloated.

Titans is on it's way out with outsiders, young justice, legion and jsa all coming back plus suicide squad and 3 JL books there's no room for dick generation. 

Tim is back as robin with his own team, generation and line of comics with bendis. Bendis has already said the yj4 should have solos and will have mini's at least.

Batwoman is going to get a new book when her tv show gets here.

Dick' s generation is on its way out just like with the new 52 but this time they may take nightwing with them.

Dc has to finally let him grow up and be his own man and not Batman's sidekick. Nightwing's strengths has all way been connections to the greater dcu so stop grounding I'm.

#Agent Nightwing or die.

----------


## WonderNight

It's time for Nightwing to stop being Batman's sidekick.

Dick should be the dcu Ethan hunt. The Nightwing solo should be a fun, sexy, action packed globetrotting superhero mission impossible book with regular dcu team ups.

Batman lite is going to get him wally West'd

----------


## Godlike13

How about they find a half decent creative team, and don’t drive them away a couple issues in. When they can’t manage even basic functions I honestly have no clue. 
I’m just so tired of this filler crap, and these out of touch creators who leave their characters worse off and looking like a joke.

----------


## WonderNight

What creative want's to Wright a character when editorial won't let them do anything and the little things they do do gets thrown out with the very next creative team.

This is how you end up with 30 years of Nightwing and nothing but a costume and a city with no value to show for it.

----------


## byrd156

> How about they find a half decent creative team, and don’t drive them away a couple issues in. When they can’t manage even basic functions I honestly have no clue. 
> I’m just so tired of this filler crap, and these out of touch creators who leave their characters worse off and looking like a joke.


A good creative team with limited to no major editorial mandates will usually fix any book, given the chance.

----------


## HsssH

I have not read Abnett's Titans since it is not something I'm very interested in and I found Titans Hunt rather bad so maybe I'm getting something wrong... but is the problem here that Abnett wrote stupid story? And editors did not stop him? Or maybe editors suggested it for him in the first place? Where I'm going with this is that he might join JL and we'll get a story about how he is just Batman lite and not worthy to be on the team. 

This is a bit of an extreme example, but Joker probably is never going to join JL (while Luther got a short stint) yet you'll never see him treated like irrelevant character. Editors see value in him and are going to protect him. So I'd like that Nightwing would have similar status. Because otherwise he might join JL, but nobody will stop next Abnett from writing about how Dick feels that he isn't good enough to be on that team and is just holding everyone back. 

I think that Badou is kinda assuming that with getting spot in JL he'd automatically get that protection status as well and I'm not sure if thats really the case.

----------


## Aahz

> I think that Badou is kinda assuming that with getting spot in JL he'd automatically get that protection status as well and I'm not sure if thats really the case.


The thing is that being in the JL is not really increases the status of a character it is, more the other way arround that the status of the JL is based on being limited to the big name characters.

Even if you look back at the Sattelite Era, Morrison/Waid Run from the late 90s early 2000s, the member they had on the team (Huntress, Steele, Zauriel, ...) in addition to the big 6, didn't really got much out of it.

----------


## Badou

> I have not read Abnett's Titans since it is not something I'm very interested in and I found Titans Hunt rather bad so maybe I'm getting something wrong... but is the problem here that Abnett wrote stupid story? And editors did not stop him? Or maybe editors suggested it for him in the first place? Where I'm going with this is that he might join JL and we'll get a story about how he is just Batman lite and not worthy to be on the team. 
> 
> This is a bit of an extreme example, but Joker probably is never going to join JL (while Luther got a short stint) yet you'll never see him treated like irrelevant character. Editors see value in him and are going to protect him. So I'd like that Nightwing would have similar status. Because otherwise he might join JL, but nobody will stop next Abnett from writing about how Dick feels that he isn't good enough to be on that team and is just holding everyone back. 
> 
> I think that Badou is kinda assuming that with getting spot in JL he'd automatically get that protection status as well and I'm not sure if thats really the case.


No, I think he can and will still be written poorly. If I had the choice I'd remove Dick from the Titans entirely (I know that can't happen) because the adult Titans will never be something DC invest much in. So he will get thrown under the bus for JL events if he is in the JL or not, just like how he gets thrown under the bus for Batman stories even if he isn't in Gotham anymore. I mean even in Titans we get stories of him being Batman lite. Abnett had Dick go behind the Titans team and act as a spy the way Batman would and pissed everyone off and said he wrote that because Dick is a Batman character and that is what he does. 

What I am suggesting is that him joining the JL properly makes it more difficult to do what Abnett did again and makes the current situation workable. It elevates Dick's status as a hero in the DCU and puts him, even if just slightly, on more even footing with JL characters. Even the second tier JL characters. It makes it so him not being in the JL can't be used against him the way Abnett used it. If he is on the JL and has been accepted there then they can't treat him as much like a child because they approved him being there. 

...

A basic rundown of the Abnett's Titans situation is that Abnett scrapped his first Titans team which spawned out of Titans Hunt because he didn't really know what to do with the story or team. He had these adult Titans that were a team when they were younger and outside of fixing their memories (continuity with them is still confusing) they really had no clear goal or mission statement as a professional team, which doesn't work for a team with adults on it. He created a new Titans Tower in NYC, put them back in there, and they were an independent hero team (like people want) but he really had no idea what to do with them because they were essentially just a lesser JL team. Trying to build a team on the idea that they are a team because they were friends and on team together when they were younger doesn't work when they become adults. It was a failure. 

So he wrote a story where Donna in the future was going to become evil after a future version of her came back and caused problems. So Abnett had the JL step in and forced the Titans to disband and took Donna to the JL headquarters to watch her because they didn't think the Titans were capable enough. Dick completely rolled over without a fight and did what the JL wanted despite having no real reason to do so. Dick even apologized to Bruce and Abnett then blamed Dick for the Titans failure and still holds that against him. It is arguably the most pathetic I've ever seen Dick's character in his 80+ years of history. Dick should have told the JL to fuck off (Abnett had Roy do this and later had him beat the crap out of Dick and Wally too) because the Titans were adults and the JL should have no authority over them, but they were the bigger more professional team so Dick bent over for them.

Then Abnett was brought back on the Titans following the No Justice event. He didn't even think he would return. He then had Dick decide to create a new Titans team with a proper mission statement. Dick's team was going to focus on helping the people that were effected from the No Justice event and were being randomly turned into meta humans. So Dick went around and was recruiting specific members he wanted for his Titans. That is the current team. He confronted the JL and in what was supposed to be his big boy moment acted all huffy about how it will be his team, he was in control of it, and he didn't need members the JL suggested or their input, but then decided to move the team into the JL Headquarters after Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman asked him to. Then after walking with his new Titans team into the Hall of Justice they were in awe of the JL hero statues on display despite Dick having more experience than most of those heroes. It was pathetic. Then when he got there the JL told him they wanted him to add Miss Martian on his team to act as their "babysitter" and despite having no reason to do so, he could have said no, taken his Titans team out of the Hall of Justice, and gone on his own, he caved and let MM on his team even though he didn't want to. It makes no sense. 

Basically DC has folded the Titans into the JL at this point. That seems to be what DC wants to do with them and this situation is more workable if Dick is a JL member. If he was a proper JL member then everything Abnett did makes more sense. It would make sense for the JL to have influence over his Titans team or authority over Dick's actions if he messed up because as other JL members they have leverage over him. Since as one of them he also represents them. They can remove his JL responsibilities or even kick him out of the JL if they think it is needed. Dick can take it or quit if he feels disrespected too. It also makes them folding the Titans into the JL and having them work and operate out of the JLJ Headquarters feasible. Since if he was a JL member it would make sense for him to want to use the JL resources to help his Titans team and work on both teams from the same place. 

It also elevates someone from the Titans to be there for JL meetings and important evens despite how they will be used. It gives Dick his own seat at the adults table. I am just so sick of Dick not being a JL member being held against him. He should have his own statue of himself in the Hall of Justice at this point and be treated like other adult heroes and looked at with the same level of respect that comes along with it.

----------


## yohyoi

When a crossover issue with an ape is better than any issues the past months and thus showing how rock bottom our hero has fallen. DC please stop... Just stop...

----------


## Konja7

> So what does everyone feel should be Nightwing's direction post RIC. He can't just go back to the same old same old bludhaven Batman lite right? Other wise what's the point.
> 
> I'm nervous for dick! He can't get creative team, he can't get a direction, he can't get out of Batman's shadow as long as he's in the batverse, he can't be a premier hero on the AAA farm team titans and the Batfamily is bloated.


At this moment, I don't think Dick can become independent from the Batfamily. 

I would put Dick in a comic with Damian. DC seems to treat Robin well, so they will probably put a good (at least, decent) creative team in their comic. 





> Titans is on it's way out with outsiders, young justice, legion and jsa all coming back plus suicide squad and 3 JL books there's no room for dick generation. 
> 
> Tim is back as robin with his own team, generation and line of comics with bendis. Bendis has already said the yj4 should have solos and will have mini's at least.


In fact, I think Bendis spoke more about Conner or Bart. He said that "Tim's got a lot of face time lately, in comics". So, I don't think he plans a solo for Tim yet. 





> Dc has to finally let him grow up and be his own man and not Batman's sidekick. Nightwing's strengths has all way been connections to the greater dcu so stop grounding I'm.
> 
> #Agent Nightwing or die.


I suspect Didio would choose "die" 

Honestly, I don't think Dick as spy will be better, since editorial will surely interfere, while DC doesn't think Dick deserve a really good creative team. 

Don't let Grayson quality fool you, that was a strange exception. Dick only get a really good creative team by accident. However, DC move half of the team to Batman (it probably doesn't help that the sales of Grayson were not bigger than the sales of the previous Nightwing comic).

----------


## yohyoi

It's sad that Nightwing won't reach his full potential due to editorial meddling. But who cares, I will keep on reading him until the day I die. Instead of complaining, maybe it's better to wait it out and enjoy the ride.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> It's sad that Nightwing won't reach his full potential due to editorial meddling. But who cares, I will keep on reading him until the day I die. Instead of complaining, maybe it's better to wait it out and enjoy the ride.


Maybe we just need to wait till the day Didio retires.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I'd give him Spyral with Helena. Or give Helena Spyral and have Nightwing run (or be high up in) checkmate. 

He can wear a spyified version of the Nightwing costume, and it could be about mediating/resolving conflicts between various DC intelligence organizations, supervillains, superheroes, and DC terrorist organizations.

----------


## Rac7d*

> I'd give him Spyral with Helena. Or give Helena Spyral and have Nightwing run (or be high up in) checkmate. 
> 
> He can wear a spyified version of the Nightwing costume, and it could be about mediating/resolving conflicts between various DC intelligence organizations, supervillains, superheroes, and DC terrorist organizations.


being a spy is not the answer, the persona has no influence on anything, DC just has to back him but they wont do that, unless some miracle forces them too
in a world where Harley can no best the trinity with no divine interventions clearly the more you sell the more power you weild

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> being a spy is not the answer, the persona has no influence on anything, DC just has to back him but they wont do that, unless some miracle forces them too
> in a world where Harley can no best the trinity with no divine interventions clearly the more you sell the more power you weild


Which persona are you referring to? I think they can combine the branding of Nightwing with the concept of Dick being an espionage character, and I think it would sell better than another go around of: 

"Dick Grayson: Nightwing, protector of (insert pointless city here), featuring (insert pointless new villains and side characters here)"

I agree without DC investment all takes are doomed to fail barring a temporary happy accident like grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> Which persona are you referring to? I think they can combine the branding of Nightwing with the concept of Dick being an espionage character, and I think it would sell better than another go around of: 
> 
> "Dick Grayson: Nightwing, protector of (insert pointless city here), featuring (insert pointless new villains and side characters here)"


Honestly, I am thrilled that this week's Nightwing features Dick teaming up with a gorilla.  This is the best news I've had in weeks.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Honestly, I am thrilled that this week's Nightwing features Dick teaming up with a gorilla.  This is the best news I've had in weeks.


Agreed, Dick's stories shouldn't be afraid of putting him in silly situations, so long as Dick himself isn't the joke.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Agreed, Dick's stories shouldn't be afraid of putting him in silly situations, so long as Dick himself isn't the joke.


Dick vs fake Dick, whom he aptly names Dildo.

----------


## Konja7

> being a spy is not the answer, the persona has no influence on anything, DC just has to back him but they wont do that, unless some miracle forces them too
> in a world where Harley can no best the trinity with no divine interventions clearly the more you sell the more power you weild


Exactly. 

That's why I like to mention sales, that's the biggest difficulty that Dick has with DC, since Nightwing comics are mid-sellers. 

If Grayson would sell like Harley Quinn, they would not have sent half of their creative team to another comic (and Didio would have to swallow his hatred to the character). It's because Grayson sold similar to previous Nightwing comic that they can do this. 

This is a problem, because even new higher ups will still focus on sales for their decisions. That puts Dick in the following situation: "He's popular enough, so we don't send him to limbo, but he does not sell enough to devote effort to his development (and make Batman looks old)".

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

I've said this before, but I would love to look at an AU where Grayson was called Nightwing: Agent of Spyral, he had a black and blue suit with the symbol on it, and didn't have a gun on the cover of issue 1. 

I feel like the sales would have been much better.

But that's the issue, DC doesn't care enough to see a good take like Grayson and think "This is good, but how can we tweak this to alienate the least amount of fans possible?" 

There is no light touch. It's either completely hands off or they're completely dictating his status quo purely based on how it impacts other characters.

----------


## Godlike13

> Exactly. 
> 
> That's why I like to mention sales, that's the biggest difficulty that Dick has with DC, since Nightwing comics are mid-sellers. 
> 
> If Grayson would sell like Harley Quinn, they would not have sent half of their creative team to another comic (and Didio would have to swallow his hatred to the character). It's because Grayson sold similar to previous Nightwing comic that they can do this. 
> 
> This is a problem, because even new higher ups will still focus on sales for their decisions. That puts Dick in the following situation: "He's popular enough, so we don't send him to limbo, but he does not sell enough to devote effort to his development (and make Batman looks old)".


King and Seeley on the same book was never an ideal situation for either creator. We were honestly lucky they paired up for as long as they did. Sales aren’t actually his issue. The character is still one of thier consistent sellers. So much so that they put his book on the bimonthly shipping. The fact that they want to sell him twice a month, but not devote effort to his development is nonsensical even by thier standards. Especially when were seeing them put more effort in books and characters that sell less and move half the product. It’s not on the character or his sales that they can’t manage basic necessities like a consistent direction or even a creative team. His sales performance and readership more then warrant these things. Even in other media the character has more going on then many of their other characters. This is on the management they assign the task to, and their inability to actually manage that task.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Exactly. 
> 
> That's why I like to mention sales, that's the biggest difficulty that Dick has with DC, since Nightwing comics are mid-sellers. 
> 
> If Grayson would sell like Harley Quinn, they would not have sent half of their creative team to another comic (and Didio would have to swallow his hatred to the character). It's because Grayson sold similar to previous Nightwing comic that they can do this. 
> 
> This is a problem, because even new higher ups will still focus on sales for their decisions. That puts Dick in the following situation: "He's popular enough, so we don't send him to limbo, but he does not sell enough to devote effort to his development (and make Batman looks old)".


this is why titans is important, this is why next season of young justice will be important for nightwing more eyes on the brand, break that comim fan sphere of influence and really hit the general public. They have to demand nightwing, 6 year later I can only find more of the same merchandise for him, I need him selling costumes like Harley does, I need him being refrenced in pop culture. He has to be popular enough that dido , bendis or king cant touch him, shoot him or hide him away.

----------


## Ascended

> being a spy is not the answer, the persona has no influence on anything, DC just has to back him but they wont do that, unless some miracle forces them too
> in a world where Harley can no best the trinity with no divine interventions clearly the more you sell the more power you weild


You're right that any direction for Nightwing will fail if DC doesn't put any effort or investment in him. Any approach or direction *could* work with the right kind of push, but without a push, any direction is going to end up failing. 

Still, the idea of Nightwing as DC's resident super-spy does offer a niche for Nightwing to own, and having a corner to call his own would go a long way towards helping Nightwing find some stability and relevance, not just in the wider DCU but in his own title as well.

----------


## Konja7

> King and Seeley on the same book was never an ideal situation for either creator. We were honestly lucky they paired up for as long as they did. Sales aren’t actually his issue. The character is still one of thier consistent sellers. So much so that they put his book on the bimonthly shipping. The fact that they want to sell him twice a month, but not devote effort to his development is nonsensical even by thier standards. Especially when were seeing them put more effort in books and characters that sell less and move half the product. It’s not on the character or his sales that they can’t find basic necessities like a consistent direction or even a creative team. His sales performance more then warrants this. This is on the management they delighted the task to, and their inability to actually handle that task.


The mid-sellers on Grayson were a problem, because it reinforces the idea that regardless of quality, Dick will sell similar . 

Then, DC does not need to put effort on Nightwing. They concentrate on other books whose sales can grow a lot.

----------


## Godlike13

> The mid-sellers on Grayson were a problem, because it reinforces the idea that regardless of quality, Dick will sell similar . 
> 
> Then, DC does not need to put effort on Nightwing. They concentrate on other books whose sales can grow a lot.


So thats why Batgirl and Red Hood got new directions, with new suits and promotion to go with, and the YJ group is getting a line launched around them for a second time. 

Dick is at the forefront of DC’s streaming service right now, and his book warranted the double ship. Which it has held on to, for the most part, for 50 issues in today’s market. They have more then enough incentive here to put in effort with the character and his title. They put in more effort with character’s that have far less going for them, and have performed far less. Yet right now the can’t even manage the basic effort to put together a real direction or even find a proper creative team. This isn’t because Grayson was a mid seller. Even mid sellers get more effort then this.

----------


## Ascended

> The mid-sellers on Grayson were a problem, because it reinforces the idea that regardless of quality, Dick will sell similar . 
> 
> Then, DC does not need to put effort on Nightwing. They concentrate on other books whose sales can grow a lot.


It's likely the conclusion DC came to, and there's plenty of business logic behind it. But I question whether or not they drew a false correlation there. 

"Grayson" didn't have the brand recognition "Nightwing" does. And it came off a controversial storyline a lot of Wingnuts didn't like, and the title didn't get advertised very much (if memory serves). I suspect that Grayson's sales were somewhat doomed from the beginning, between the change to title and costume and the long run of mediocre-to-bad stories we had had previously. DC burned a lot of goodwill before Grayson hit, and I wonder if a lot of potential readers didn't pick it up just because of that.

It seems to me that if DC really wants to test Nightwing's sales viability, they need to drop a well regarded name on the book, spend a dollar or two on marketing, and see what happens. Obviously a known, trusted creator will increase sales on any title, but the size of the increase might give DC some insight into what kind of figures a Nightwing book could produce if it had some consistency and quality behind it. We know Nightwing will sell decently no matter what, but we don't really know how Nightwing will sell if he's given good creators. Maybe the increase wouldn't be enough to justify the effort, but until DC puts in an honest effort we can't know for sure.

----------


## Rac7d*

> So thats why Batgirl and Red Hood got new directions, with new suits and promotion to go with, and the YJ group is getting a line launched around them for a second time. 
> 
> Dick is at the forefront of DC’s streaming service right now, and his book warranted the double ship. Which it has held on to, for the most part, for 50 issues in today’s market. They have more then enough incentive here to put in effort with the character and his title. They put in more effort with character’s that have far less going for them, and have performed far less. Yet right now the can’t even manage the basic effort to put together a real direction or even find a proper creative team. This isn’t because Grayson was a mid seller. Even mid sellers get more effort then this.



Batgirl is forever safe, esp right now

Jason, I cant tell you no matter how bad he sell thay wont banish gothams bad boy

YJ is bendis creation and DC is giving him whatever he wants, tim drake is in it because his son asked him to do so

----------


## Godlike13

Stop trying to create this narrative that Grayson sold poorly. It did not. It increased his readership at the time, which they were so happy with that it played a part in inspiring them to try DCYou. Even the Nightwing that came out of Grayson, came out with double the production he was seeing before. It lost King, but kept Seeley. But again that creator situation was not ideal for the creators in the first place. It’s just illogical that the character warrants the effort to produce his book twice a month, but not the basic necessities like a actual direction or proper creative team. The character is going to be in 3 tv shows, is possibly going to get his own movie (hey, it still has a director), and just double shipped his way to 50 issues in today’s market. Characters who perform less, and have less going on, don’t get treated this poorly or mismanaged so negligently.

----------


## Restingvoice

All of you know the problem comes from the top and none of you, as far as I know, are working at the top so this thread ends up discussing the same thing over and over again. Can't we just make a fanfic instead?

Tell me more about that Nightwing Agent of Spyral idea and the alternate base of operation if you consider Bludhaven a dead end, and you don't have to preface it with sales or if DC will do it or not. DC has nothing to do with this. We know where they stand. Share things about what you like.

----------


## Konja7

> Why are guys trying to create this narrative that Grayson sold poorly. It did not. It increased his readership at the time, which they were so happy with that it played a part in inspiring them to try DCYou. Even the Nightwing that came out of Grayson, came out with double the production he was seeing before. It lost King, but kept Seeley. But again that creator situation was not ideal for the creators in the first place. It’s just illogical that the character warrants the effort to produce his book twice a month, but the basic necessities like a actual direction or proper ceative team.


I've never said Grayson sold poorly. However, Grayson was a mid-seller. 

Although Grayson started pretty strong, it's sales began to fall over time. In the last year of Grayson you can see that it sells slightly less than the previous Nightwing comic in its last year. 

The likely conclusion of DC is that Dick sells fine regardless the quality. So, they don't need to put effort.


Although now that the comic of Nightwing was selling less, they try the (horrible) idea of the amnesia.

----------


## Godlike13

The market in general fell. Your comparing books at different times. Grayson did increase his current readership at that time, it’s numbers fell, but that’s the general tread of most comics in today’s market. They were clearly confident enough with character’s sales after Grayson to double their production rate with the character. So they did put in more effort after Grayson.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The market in general fell. Your comparing books at different times. Grayson did increase his current readership at that time, it’s numbers fell, but that’s the general tread of most comics in today’s market. They were clearly confident enough with character’s sales after Grayson to double their production rate with the character. So they did put in more effort after Grayson.


except of course the book with chracter beaing featured in popular films....

----------


## Konja7

> The market in general fell. Your comparing books at different times. Grayson did increase his current readership at that time, it’s numbers fell, but that’s the general tread of most comics in today’s market. They were clearly confident enough with character’s sales after Grayson to double their production rate with the character. So they did put in more effort after Grayson.


It's true that the sales were lower on general. So, say that "the sales of Grayson were slightly lower than the previous Nightwing comic" was unfair. 

However, that doesn't change Grayson was a mid-seller during the end of his run, which makes him less protected to editorial interference. 

Regarding DC treatment of Dick, DC probably consider more how Grayson sales developed over time than how Grayson sales started.

----------


## Jackalope89

Ah, Dick. Best big bro around. And best one to calm Damian down as well.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ah, Dick. Best big bro around. And best one to calm Damian down as well.


I really miss this dynamic now that we have Ric.  Read the comic book propaganda flyer when picking up today's batch of comics (books costing more and enjoying it a whole HELL of a lot less): Bendis on fire for YJ and he's going to be the PERMANENT writer???!!!!!  Shoot me now, please.

----------


## Konja7

> Ah, Dick. Best big bro around. And best one to calm Damian down as well.


I really like the interactions between Dick and Damian. They are really close. 

I would really like a team of these two on a comic.

----------


## oasis1313

> I really like the interactions between Dick and Damian. They are really close. 
> 
> I would really like a team of these two on a comic.


With Tim Dreck now resuming his royal place ("Hosanna in the Highest!!!!!"), I can't see Damian sharing a moniker with the loathed Usurper.  He and Dick both have no place to go.  A viable option--IMHO--would be to leave Bruce and stay with Dick as Nightwing and Flamebird.  Flamebird sounds just as good as Redbird.  Since they're both rejects now, I'd like to see Dick and Damian visit Superman (is Kandor still around), learn about Kryptonian history, and renew their mission as partners.

----------


## Badou

> Ah, Dick. Best big bro around. And best one to calm Damian down as well.


What is annoying is that in the actual Metal issue set after this when Dick and Damian failed to save Gotham it was Dick being depressed and saying that they should leave Bruce and not try and save him. The Gotham experience was too scary for him. Then Damian punched Dick in the face saying he was wrong and that Superman is right in that they should go try and save Bruce. Then the bar was invaded and that was the last time Dick appeared in the event with Superman going off to save Bruce.

----------


## oasis1313

> What is annoying is that in the actual Metal issue set after this when Dick and Damian failed to save Gotham it was Dick being depressed and saying that they should leave Bruce and not try and save him. The Gotham experience was too scary for him. Then Damian punched Dick in the face saying he was wrong and that Superman is right in that they should go try and save Bruce. Then the bar was invaded and that was the last time Dick appeared in the event with Superman going off to save Bruce.


I've lost count of how many "events" Dick makes an appearance in--only to be dropped aside and out of the story with no explanation.

----------


## yohyoi

> I've lost count of how many "events" Dick makes an appearance in--only to be dropped aside and out of the story with no explanation.


Because that's what he does in most events or he becomes a hostage/ Batman's puppy. You don't hurt Batman's puppy.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm a fan of motorcycles, but I want a new vehicle for Nightwing. I liked the truck. But like most of Nightwing lore, it is forgotten and underused.

----------


## WonderNight

So what directions would you guys be interested in post RIC.

----------


## oasis1313

> Because that's what he does in most events or he becomes a hostage/ Batman's puppy. You don't hurt Batman's puppy.


Usually he just drops out of sight.  Forever Evil was an exception--except that he was "killed" while Batman stood around like an impotent slob and watched, letting Luthor "kill" him then tried to interfere when Luthor revived him.

----------


## Denirac

> So what directions would you guys be interested in post RIC.


Nightwing as Nightwing would be nice (maybe even get Higgins back on the book)

----------


## WonderNight

> Nightwing as Nightwing would be nice (maybe even get Higgins back on the book)


I don't even know what nightwing as nightwing means anymore. Doesn't it mean more isolated directionless  bludhaven story's with no consistent mythos that has to be shaken up every bat/Dc event? Because that seems to be what nightwing as nightwing is post flashpoint.

----------


## Konja7

I think a comic with Damian like "Nightwing and Robin" can be a good option. 

DC really seems to give a good treatment to the comics of Robin (at least, decent writers). So, Dick could be benefited from this. 





> I don't even know what nightwing as nightwing means anymore. Don't it mean more isolated directionless  bludhaven story's with no consistent mythos that has to be shaken up every bat/Dc event? Because that seems to be alternative nightwing is post flashpoint.


I've understood that Nightwing was on a pretty similar situation in Pre-Flashpoint, since he returns to Batman office (although Nightwing seems to be consistent during Chuck Dixon run). 

DC think there are writers too big for Nightwing since that time.

----------


## Restingvoice

> So what directions would you guys be interested in post RIC.


Doesn't matter because they can just cancel stories and replace it with a new one at a moment's notice. I don't think I'm even going to pick up Nightwing again unless I see they can complete a story arc for at least a year.

No, wait... not long enough.

5 years. Screw it.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I think a comic with Damian like "Nightwing and Robin" can be a good option. 
> 
> DC really seems to give a good treatment to the comics of Robin (at least, decent writers). So, Dick could be benefited from this. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've understood that Nightwing was on a pretty similar situation in Pre-Flashpoint, since he returns to Batman office (although Nightwing seems to be consistent during Chuck Dixon run). 
> 
> DC think there are writers too big for Nightwing since that time.


Even the Dixon run was fairly pedestrian. 

It was well written and he got the character, but it was very much just batman lite.

----------


## Raised_by_wolves

Honestly with the new direction I was hoping we would see some sort of on the road voyage to discovery.  Kinda Kung Fu the legend continues. Ric Grayson moving across the country and focusing on his fighting skills.  Involve a lot of those lower end martial arts characters in a have gun will travel style.

Can start out with some underground fighting, then layer in Bronze tiger, Shiva and Richard Dragon and really explore that area since they have gotten Black Canary so far away from it. Allow him to figure out who he is away from the bat family, improve his skills and give the character a break from so much history.

----------


## oasis1313

> Doesn't matter because they can just cancel stories and replace it with a new one at a moment's notice. I don't think I'm even going to pick up Nightwing again unless I see they can complete a story arc for at least a year.
> 
> No, wait... not long enough.
> 
> 5 years. Screw it.


I really hate it that DC cherry-picks which aspects of "continuity" it wants to keep or discard.  As an example--here was Devin Grayson's wretched turn at the character where she inserted that Dick Grayson is a "person of color" ("Romani") and even devoted a whole page to the document where both Bruce and Dick signed off on his adoption.  The Romani stuff has stuck like Krazy Glue, but the adoption was thrown out the window.  Same run, same time frame.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I really hate it that DC cherry-picks which aspects of "continuity" it wants to keep or discard.  As an example--here was Devin Grayson's wretched turn at the character where she inserted that Dick Grayson is a "person of color" ("Romani") and even devoted a whole page to the document where both Bruce and Dick signed off on his adoption.  The Romani stuff has stuck like Krazy Glue, but the adoption was thrown out the window.  Same run, same time frame.


How long was the time frame?

I kinda just assume everyone who stayed in the manor is adopted unless their parents are still alive like Duke and maybe Tim.

----------


## oasis1313

> How long was the time frame?
> 
> I kinda just assume everyone who stayed in the manor is adopted unless their parents are still alive like Duke and maybe Tim.


The time frame I'm speaking of is during Devin Grayson's run, not too many issues apart.  Tim was adopted shortly after the last of his parent were killed before the most recent reboot ("Tim Wayne!!! Tim Wayne!!!!").  Now they're alive in Witless Protection, but given that he is Bruce's favorite, he is a son in all but name.  Jason is the only other orphan Bruce has admitted to adopting in current "canon".  Damian is the sole biological son, but that can be tosses out at the drop of a hat.  There has been no mention of Dick or Cass being legally adopted by Bruce to my knowledge.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Even though N52 trashed Tim's character, I was glad to not have him be adopted by Bruce. That Tim Wayne shit was dumb. 

IMO in current continuity, Dick and Jason should be the only ones adopted. Would include Cass but she basically got rebooted, so it would need to happen again. 




> Honestly with the new direction I was hoping we would see some sort of on the road voyage to discovery.  Kinda Kung Fu the legend continues. Ric Grayson moving across the country and focusing on his fighting skills.  Involve a lot of those lower end martial arts characters in a have gun will travel style.
> 
> Can start out with some underground fighting, then layer in Bronze tiger, Shiva and Richard Dragon and really explore that area since they have gotten Black Canary so far away from it. Allow him to figure out who he is away from the bat family, improve his skills and give the character a break from so much history.


Something like this could actually make this work for me. 

You know Shiva would be all over that, if only to rub it in Bruce's face that she's training him.

----------


## Restingvoice

> The time frame I'm speaking of is during Devin Grayson's run, not too many issues apart.  Tim was adopted shortly after the last of his parent were killed before the most recent reboot ("Tim Wayne!!! Tim Wayne!!!!").  Now they're alive in Witless Protection, but given that he is Bruce's favorite, he is a son in all but name.  Jason is the only other orphan Bruce has admitted to adopting in current "canon".  Damian is the sole biological son, but that can be tosses out at the drop of a hat.  There has been no mention of Dick or Cass being legally adopted by Bruce to my knowledge.


Identity Crisis was when his father died, then comes Infinite Crisis, then One Year Later and there's a year before Final Crisis where Bruce died, so Tim was adopted during that one year between Infinite and Final Crisis?
That was the beginning of the Didio era wasn't it?

----------


## Konja7

> Identity Crisis was when his father died, then comes Infinite Crisis, then One Year Later and there's a year before Final Crisis where Bruce died, so Tim was adopted during that one year between Infinite and Final Crisis?
> That was the beginning of the Didio era wasn't it?


I've understood that Tim was adopted shortly after his dad died. Although Tim did not agree very much with the situation at the beginning.

----------


## oasis1313

> I've understood that Tim was adopted shortly after his dad died. Although Tim did not agree very much with the situation at the beginning.


Tim would have to be an even nastier piece of work than  *** I *** think he is (which is like Seventh Pit of Hell layer of Nastiness and Utter Filth) to be glad his dad died so he could get adopted by Bruce.  I don't even know if Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, One Year Later, and Final Crisis even count as canon anymore.  Canon just seems to be whatever the current writer at the current moment says it is so we really have no rules anymore.  Since Tim's parents (both of them) are alive, I really don't know if Bruce can legally adopt him in this situation.  From what I've seen in the latest reboot, Dick is in "former ward" status and Cass has no legal relationship with Bruce at all.  He has referred only to Jason and Damian as "his sons."

----------


## nhienphan2808

> I think a comic with Damian like "Nightwing and Robin" can be a good option. 
> 
> DC really seems to give a good treatment to the comics of Robin (at least, decent writers). So, Dick could be benefited from this. 
> 
> 
> 
> I've understood that Nightwing was on a pretty similar situation in Pre-Flashpoint, since he returns to Batman office (although Nightwing seems to be consistent during Chuck Dixon run). 
> 
> DC think there are writers too big for Nightwing since that time.



I agree with those who say even that run isnt paramount. He was the one who started the job of putting Robins into box, played up Dick's popularity as the "acrobatic and sexy Robin" (it was only turned up to eleven by Devin Grayson), erased the TT and Kory's impact in his life. And he is known to trash his own canon. Dick's origin get worse and Dick gets treated worse by Bruce the more he writes  Nightwing YO was peak trash. And im not sure his own Prodigal storyline with Dickbats is even canon post ero Hour anymore. The NW series was Dick having proved himself to Bruce AGAIN and in Prodigal he was shown cooking, cleaning and maintaining his house but in Nightwing he says to have let Kory do all those stuff for him and no mention of Prodigal at all like ever since, in later personality development? DONNA was a love interest? 

It's like there is a need to dumb him down, whether when you create a new shiny character or when you focus on his personal emotional life. Chuck Dixon belongs in those "not too big" writers when it comes to writing Dick that for some reason, has to sabotage Dick in favor of other 34679 characters like Robin!TIm  Like Dixon said Babs is his true love but where was Babs when Tim came banging into their life (and Tim fans says "Tim is the reason the family existed) If she really was his true love why did he need TIm to beg him to come back and Tim being a awkward kid that doesn't mention Jason or Babs at all? Where is the fix of THAT in reboots? Why did Dick become a cheater while Bruce became Batgod and Babs and Tim "the adult smart ones" ?

Chuck Dixin is just another writer in editorial mandate for DC to appease Dick's fans. No wonder people say Dick is just a fan service character and never was as good as he was made out to be by fans. I know when people speak of dear boy Dick that's better than everyone else, they talk about the one that existed from 40s to the mid 90s.

----------


## Konja7

> I agree with those who say even that run isnt paramount. He was the one who started the job of putting Robins into box, played up Dick's popularity as the "acrobatic and sexy Robin" (it was only turned up to eleven by Devin Grayson), erased the TT and Kory's impact in his life. And he is known to trash his own canon. Dick's origin get worse and Dick gets treated worse by Bruce the more he writes  Nightwing YO was peak trash. And im not sure his own Prodigal storyline with Dickbats is even canon post ero Hour anymore. The NW series was Dick having proved himself to Bruce AGAIN and in Prodigal he was shown cooking, cleaning and maintaining his house but in Nightwing he says to have let Kory do all those stuff for him and no mention of Prodigal at all like ever since, in later personality development? DONNA was a love interest? 
> 
> It's like there is a need to dumb him down, whether when you create a new shiny character or when you focus on his personal emotional life. Chuck Dixon belongs in those "not too big" writers when it comes to writing Dick that for some reason, has to sabotage Dick in favor of other 34679 characters like Robin!TIm  Like Dixon said Babs is his true love but where was Babs when Tim came banging into their life (and Tim fans says "Tim is the reason the family existed) If she really was his true love why did he need TIm to beg him to come back and Tim being a awkward kid that doesn't mention Jason or Babs at all? Where is the fix of THAT in reboots? Why did Dick become a cheater while Bruce became Batgod and Babs and Tim "the adult smart ones" ?
> 
> Chuck Dixin is just another writer in editorial mandate for DC to appease Dick's fans. No wonder people say Dick is just a fan service character and never was as good as he was made out to be by fans. I know when people speak of dear boy Dick that's better than everyone else, they talk about the one that existed from 40s to the mid 90s.


In my case, I start to read Nightwing after Flashpoint (although I read some stories of Dick as Batman previously). Then I just said what I heard about Dixon run, maybe his run was polarizing. 


That said, I've heard before that Dixon put Robin on boxes like Dick as the athletic, while Tim was the smart. I ask about this issue in this thread, but I was told that this was not the case. Now, I'm confused.


The problems of Dick seems to start after the fall of popularity of Titans. 

The popularity of New Teen Titans allowed Dick to grow and leave behind Robin. However, when Titans lost its big popularity, Dick lost his place and he needed to go back to Batman, but he can't be Robin again.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> I've heard before that Dixon put Robin on boxes like Dick as the athletic, while Tim was the smart. I ask about this issue in this thread, but I was told that this was not the case. Now, I'm confused.


It's subtle, but it paved the way for "sexy Robin" writers like Devin and Seeley. He didn't say Tim was the smart, he just said that Tim has the potential and training and is the "cerebral one" while saying "Nightwing is a babe magnet" "Bratty Angry Robin Jason" was in NW YO also by him.

----------


## Konja7

Thank you for the answer.

This wouldn't help the current situation of Dick, but I would like to see stories in the past with Dick as Robin (with pants) in the current continuity. I would like to see more of these stories (and I suspect they would put more quality on this).

----------


## yohyoi

Dixon wrote the best Nightwing. Dick is Nightwing. Nightwing haters who like Dick Grayson doesn't make sense. It divides the fanbase in every level. Instead of celebrating the character, we are celebrating the mantles and capes. So Dixon didn't like DickKori, who cares? He wrote a great independent Nightwing who can stand on his own.

----------


## Vinsanity

> So what directions would you guys be interested in post RIC.


Back to Grayson honestly.

If people want him still as NW, then put him in a costume and let him go solo as a spy in costume where he can travel the world.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Dixon wrote the best Nightwing. Dick is Nightwing. Nightwing haters who like Dick Grayson doesn't make sense. It divides the fanbase in every level. Instead of celebrating the character, we are celebrating the mantles and capes. So Dixon didn't like DickKori, who cares? He wrote a great independent Nightwing who can stand on his own.


Dixon was solid but if it was great the City Of Bludhaven wouldnt constantly need to be reshuffled and the biggest villain wouldnt be a hand me down but an original & if Nightwing stood on his own his life wouldnt constantly be derailed by another event. Dick Grayson had more freedom in the Golden/Silver Age then he does now.

----------


## Konja7

> Dixon was solid but if it was great the City Of Bludhaven wouldn’t constantly need to be reshuffled and the biggest villain wouldn’t be a hand me down but an original & if Nightwing stood on his own his life wouldn’t constantly be derailed by another event. Dick Grayson had more freedom in the Golden/Silver Age then he does now.


This should be true. Dixon run should be solid, but not extremely succesful, because Dick can't grow from that. 


To be fair, Dick Grayson has more freedom during Golden/Silver age, because he was the only Robin at that time. When Dick becomes Nightwing, he was part of the extremely succesful (at that time) Titans. The popularity gives freedom.

----------


## WonderNight

> Dixon was solid but if it was great the City Of Bludhaven wouldn’t constantly need to be reshuffled and the biggest villain wouldn’t be a hand me down but an original & if Nightwing stood on his own his life wouldn’t constantly be derailed by another event. Dick Grayson had more freedom in the Golden/Silver Age then he does now.


 Yeah it's not the nightwing identity that we have the problem with. I love nightwing but It's the role and directions they give him as nightwing. Dick as nightwing should not still be Batman's sidekick and isolated form the greater dcu. Were just tired of seeing nightwing not living up to his potential be dc doesn't know what to do with him and fans can't let go of there nostalgia. DC the people with the power to invest in nightwing, just like with cybrog clearly say they are not interested in dick as batman-lite.but fans fans are nostalgic.

As long as dc see's nightwing as bootleg batman that dick will never get the push or respect that he deserves. Bludhaven and titans doesn't work for what DC want's. Is the reason they got reed of dick generation in the new52 and way there doing it now. But fans will continue to want bludhaven and titans but be upset when DC continues to not push or respect the character. Because they will see and treat him as just there B-list bootleg Batman sidekick. 

Dick should still be nightwing, but nightwing should NOT be bootleg batman.

----------


## WonderNight

Just look at DC entertainment. Does anyone see them being interested in a nightwing animated movie of his own even though he's there 3rd most published character? Nope because everything about nightwing as a solo character revolves around or is form batman or is too similar to batman . So they just go we batman and nightwing cant just be his sidekick.

I grow up on reruns if the superfriend were dick as robin was going on adventures with DC's biggest heroes. Now he just sit in the corner at the kids table while the adults takes care of business. This sucks.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> *Dixon wrote the best Nightwing.* Dick is Nightwing. Nightwing haters who like Dick Grayson doesn't make sense. It divides the fanbase in every level. Instead of celebrating the character, we are celebrating the mantles and capes. So Dixon didn't like DickKori, who cares? He wrote a great independent Nightwing who can stand on his own.


If Dixon's Nightwing is "the best Nightwing" then Dick should drop the moniker. 

The character is more than upbeat less experienced nice guy batman. I don't care if he's on his own if his stories are boring, and for the most part Dixon's run didn't rise above "Fine" even if it was consistently there.

----------


## josai21

All of Dick's problems stem from DC's inability to let Batman/Superman etc. grow old and die. Its the same problem for every generational character.

Dick as batman was so great and truly an evolution for the character...if it had been allowed to stay.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

...Dixon's Nightwing can't be the best Nightwing, because if it is, there's nothing left. Independent? Even though he was intrinsically tied to the Batman franchise again? I love stuff like The Target and Prodigal, but some of the problems we have with Nightwing now can be traced back to Dixon's run and to Grayson's run. There's no need to blame it all on Dixon when, one, a lot of issues are due to other writers trying to recapture the feeling of Dixon's run and not because of Dixon himself, and two, the other major issues are related to the downfall and mismanagement of the Titans franchise. But. That doesn't change the groundwork Dixon laid down to take a world class hero character like Dick and water him down to a street level hero. And I say this as someone who's generally cool with Dick the Bludhaven hero and I love Dick the cop. 

Anyways, what I'm saying is: if Dixon's run is the best run, Nightwing is already over. He'll always be subservient to Batman and stuck as a street-leveller with a street-level occupation, a street-level love interest, in a B-list city, set in a universe where there are several other characters with similar traits and skills doing infinitely more interesting things. It's one thing to be a book that doesn't sell, but if it ends up one that fans and critics avoid since they can keep up with Bruce, Tim, Damian, or even Jason instead......

----------


## Konja7

So far, DC don't seem to be interested on develop Nightwing in his solo. Even if the next relaunch has another Nightwing solo, I doubt something would change. 


Dick was a pretty good leader. So, instead of a solo, Dick comic could be with other characters. Something like "Nightwing and... "

That could mantain Dick as a leader, but a group that work for him (not against him like current Titans).

----------


## Pohzee

If we can have BATGIRL and the Birds of Prey, RED HOOD and the Outlaws, and BATMAN and the Outsiders, then I'd like to see NIGHTWING and the Titans.

It is pretty clear that Nightwing is way bigger than all of the other Titans, so he should recieve the majority of the focus and promotion.

----------


## OWL45

> If we can have BATGIRL and the Birds of Prey and RED HOOD and the Outlaws, then I'd like to see NIGHTWING and the Titans.
> 
> It is pretty clear that Nightwing is way bigger than all of the other Titans, so he should recieve the majority of the focus and promotion.


I thought the Outsiders was a missed opportunity to do that and it would be getting more attention.  Nightwing and the the Outsiders would have worked and it could have had an espionage angle to it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Interrupt a bit. Are there any circus boys, particularly acrobats and trapeze artists who wear short shorts these days or do they all wear long tights or long stockings? 
No reason.

----------


## Aahz

> Nightwing and the the Outsiders would have worked and it could have had an espionage angle to it.


Don't know, Dick isn't really an iconic member of the team and it would feel imo odd to that if you have Black Lightning and Katana on the team.

----------


## Godlike13

YJ though could potentially change the general perception of the Outsiders team and it’s "iconic" roster. The Outsiders itself is hard to call an iconic team. So there might be some wiggle room, though I stress might. 
That being said an espionage in team in any form could be cool. I know I said JL isn’t gonna do much for Dick, and long term I still think that would be true, but nevertheless if they launched a JL espionage team out of No Justice with Dick in there that would have been cool.

----------


## Konja7

> I thought the Outsiders was a missed opportunity to do that and it would be getting more attention.  Nightwing and the the Outsiders would have worked and it could have had an espionage angle to it.


Unfortunately, "Nightwing and the Outsiders" only could attract more the attention than "Batman and the Outsiders" if Nightwing doesn't have a solo at the same time.

That was one of the problems of "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey".

----------


## oasis1313

> Unfortunately, "Nightwing and the Outsiders" only could attract more the attention than "Batman and the Outsiders" if Nightwing doesn't have a solo at the same time.
> 
> That was one of the problems of "Batgirl and the Birds of Prey".


Well, IMHO, he did more to sell the Titans book to me than all the rest of them put together; I hope it folds now.  I think he could sell a solo and a team book--IF the other characters are not prioritized above him.  Since there are other Justice League teams, I think an Espionage Squad that works quietly without creating tons of rubble in the process would be a good idea.  Nightwing and the Whatevers.  The team on the cartoon looks good, but it's only on streaming, right?  Not on the cartoon network?  The big trouble with the Nightwing and the Outsiders book was there were several new characters created by the writer that he wanted to showcase instead of Nightwing; Dick was just there to hold up the scenery and try to sell the others.  I would tell a creator to build a book around Nightwing--HE is the showcase.

----------


## WonderNight

All I Know is trying to ground nightwing more then batman doesn't work. Let the FLYING grayson you know FLY.

----------


## Godlike13

Well the Titans tv show continues to be the best thing going on with Dick, by far too. What a pleasant surprise.

----------


## oasis1313

> All I Know is trying to ground nightwing more then batman doesn't work. Let the FLYING grayson you know FLY.


Fly, NIghtwing, fly.  How COULD we do something to help Dick?  Maybe if I let Didio marry one of my grand-daughters . . . ?

----------


## Konja7

> Well, IMHO, he did more to sell the Titans book to me than all the rest of them put together; I hope it folds now.  I think he could sell a solo and a team book--IF the other characters are not prioritized above him.  Since there are other Justice League teams, I think an Espionage Squad that works quietly without creating tons of rubble in the process would be a good idea.  Nightwing and the Whatevers.  The team on the cartoon looks good, but it's only on streaming, right?  Not on the cartoon network?  The big trouble with the Nightwing and the Outsiders book was there were several new characters created by the writer that he wanted to showcase instead of Nightwing; Dick was just there to hold up the scenery and try to sell the others.  I would tell a creator to build a book around Nightwing--HE is the showcase.


That's another good point. "Batman and the Outsiders" existed to showcase other like the Signal, Orphan, Black Lightning and Katana, while Batman is there to call attention of fans on the comic.

They can use Batman this way, because he has many comics when he shines. 


I agree that a comic with Dick in a team should be created to showcase Dick, but I suspect writers would only do this if Dick doesn't have a solo (these writers think Nightwing showcase him, so they don't focus on him). 

Also, I wouldn't say that Nightwing has the power name to mantain a group with his name first and his solo at the same time. It's true that he was one of the main attraction of Titans, but the name Titans is an important name itself (that's why they try to mantain the title even without Dick).

----------


## Godlike13

Dick needs a team team, not a showcase masquerading as a team. This was part of the problem with the last Titans series. With other decent draws Dick should have no problem maintaining his solo and a team book. Just him and a bunch of nobodies, I don’t know. That’s not something that’s easy for even Batman.

----------


## oasis1313

I would suggest a solo book for Dick Grayson/Nightwing in terms of his personal casebooks/adventures, and a good team book to highlight his leadership skills.

----------


## Konja7

> Dick needs a team team, not a showcase masquerading as a team. This was part of the problem with the last Titans series. With other decent draws Dick should have no problem maintaining his solo and a team book. Just him and a bunch of nobodies, I don’t know. That’s not something that’s easy for even Batman.


The problem is that Dick in a team is usually used to showcase other characters. I think a comic like "Nightwing and a group" can allow Dick to showcase his leadership skills.

Dick can mantain a solo and team book (especially if there are other relatively important characters), but I doubt he can mantain a solo and "Nightwing and a group" comic for a long time. 





> I would suggest a solo book for Dick Grayson/Nightwing in terms of his personal casebooks/adventures, and a good team book to highlight his leadership skills.


I don't know a lot about Nightwing Pre-Flashpoint, since Nightwing has his solo, is there a team book that highlight Dick leadership skills? 

I remember some examples of his time as Batman.

----------


## WonderNight

> Fly, NIghtwing, fly.  How COULD we do something to help Dick?  Maybe if I let Didio marry one of my grand-daughters . . . ?


All we'd have to do is make sure that nightwing is the most popular character on dc universe. Then DC entertainment and WB will force DC Comics to push there new big money maker.

----------


## oasis1313

> All we'd have to do is make sure that nightwing is the most popular character on dc universe. Then DC entertainment and WB will force DC Comics to push there new big money maker.


What can we do besides buying comics, subscribing to the streaming service, buy merch?

----------


## Restingvoice

Keep talking about him in every social media and keep asking for the movie, I guess. 

What's the recommended reading? 
...Besides Grayson, NTT, and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Those are already on my list. I'm reading Golden Age right now and already read Dark Victory. I've also read Batman Reborn and New 52 Nightwing. 
I have to admit I'm not that interested in 90s Nightwing because of the art and tone but I don't mind getting them, or the other I'm not that enthusiastic, if Comixology has a sale.

Merch wise I'm interested in Jim Lee black and white statue, the New 52 ArtF+ which I love the glossy black and red, the Arkham Knight action figure and statue, they have great details those Arkham ones, the Rebirth action figure, the Perez NTT lineup, the DickBabs statue, and the Ikemen line, but statues are expensive so they're on the forever waiting list ^^

Speaking of merch, I want a Brenton Twaites Robin poster. They haven't made those yet, right?

----------


## Aahz

> What's the recommended reading? 
> ...Besides Grayson, NTT, and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Those are already on my list. I'm reading Golden Age right now and already read Dark Victory. I've also read Batman Reborn and New 52 Nightwing. 
> I have to admit I'm not that interested in 90s Nightwing because of the art and tone but I don't mind getting them, or the other I'm not that enthusiastic, if Comixology has a sale.


Maybe "Robin: Year One" and if you liked NTT, you could try the Devin Grayson Run on Titans.

----------


## Restingvoice

Hey, it's Officer Grayson ^^

a-violent-separation.jpg

from A Violent Separation

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe "Robin: Year One" and if you liked NTT, you could try the Devin Grayson Run on Titans.


These are necessary Dick Grayson stories.

----------


## L.H.

> Keep talking about him in every social media and keep asking for the movie, I guess. 
> 
> What's the recommended reading? 
> ...Besides Grayson, NTT, and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Those are already on my list. I'm reading Golden Age right now and already read Dark Victory. I've also read Batman Reborn and New 52 Nightwing. 
> I have to admit I'm not that interested in 90s Nightwing because of the art and tone but I don't mind getting them, or the other I'm not that enthusiastic, if Comixology has a sale.
> 
> Merch wise I'm interested in Jim Lee black and white statue, the New 52 ArtF+ which I love the glossy black and red, the Arkham Knight action figure and statue, they have great details those Arkham ones, the Rebirth action figure, the Perez NTT lineup, the DickBabs statue, and the Ikemen line, but statues are expensive so they're on the forever waiting list ^^
> 
> Speaking of merch, I want a Brenton Twaites Robin poster. They haven't made those yet, right?


After Dark Victory you should read The Gauntlet. Then Robin (and Batgirl) Year One. Those are a must read, IMHO. Robin Year One is tied to On the Razor Edge, so I'll suggest that too (and it's also a great DickBabs story). 
As Nightwing, my favorite story is still The Great Leap, from Tomasi's run. You can also read Freefall or 365 days (Wolfman), but another mine must read is Nightwing #152, don't miss it.
Have you considered The Outsiders? 
As Batman, don't forget Gates of Gotham and Streets of Gotham. JLA Obsidian Age? Did you read it?
As Titans leader, Teen Titans Year One, Technis Imperative (JLA vs Titans), Devine Grayson's Titans.
If you are interested in knowing something about Amy Rohrbach, or like Dick interactions with others characters like Donna, Wally or Deathstroke I can suggest you something more.

----------


## K7P5V

> After Dark Victory you should read The Gauntlet. Then Robin (and Batgirl) Year One. Those are a must read, IMHO. Robin Year One is tied to On the Razor Edge, so I'll suggest that too (and it's also a great DickBabs story). 
> As Nightwing, my favorite story is still The Great Leap, from Tomasi's run. You can also read Freefall or 365 days (Wolfman), but another mine must read is Nightwing #152, don't miss it.
> Have you considered The Outsiders? 
> As Batman, don't forget Gates of Gotham and Streets of Gotham. JLA Obsidian Age? Did you read it?
> As Titans leader, Teen Titans Year One, Technis Imperative (JLA vs Titans), Devine Grayson's Titans.
> If you are interested in knowing something about Amy Rohrbach, or like Dick interactions with others characters like Donna, Wally or Deathstroke I can suggest you something more.





> Maybe "Robin: Year One" and if you liked NTT, you could try the Devin Grayson Run on Titans.


And if you like Devin Grayson's run on _Titans_, you might like the 4 issue mini-series _Nightwing & Huntress_ for some Dick/Helena interactions which will continue into Nightwing's own ongoing series.

----------


## Restingvoice

> After Dark Victory you should read The Gauntlet. Then Robin (and Batgirl) Year One. Those are a must read, IMHO. Robin Year One is tied to On the Razor Edge, so I'll suggest that too (and it's also a great DickBabs story). 
> As Nightwing, my favorite story is still The Great Leap, from Tomasi's run. You can also read Freefall or 365 days (Wolfman), but another mine must read is Nightwing #152, don't miss it.
> Have you considered The Outsiders? 
> As Batman, don't forget Gates of Gotham and Streets of Gotham. JLA Obsidian Age? Did you read it?
> As Titans leader, Teen Titans Year One, Technis Imperative (JLA vs Titans), Devine Grayson's Titans.
> If you are interested in knowing something about Amy Rohrbach, or like Dick interactions with others characters like Donna, Wally or Deathstroke I can suggest you something more.


The Gauntlet doesn't seem to be collected anywhere... yeah... okay it's only one issue. I'll get it digital.  

Razor's Edge is Nightwing, right? ... yeah. Oh it's the one where Dinah walked in on Dick showering, and Nightwing make out with Catwoman... that one's weird...  It's the older Dixon collection... I'm browsing where it's collected on the new verison... okay the new collection is Vol. 6 To Serve and Protect (#52-53) and Vol 7. Shrike (the rest)

Why did the older collection jumped one issue? ...Oh it's Officer Down crossover. Part 6. I think there's a separate trade for that in the past, but the new collection include everything and I don't think there's a new Officer Down collection. Oh this is the kinda thing that will annoy me when I read it. 

Well. It's still gonna be a while before I read that one. So I'll think about this later. 

Yeah, I heard Tomasi's run is pretty good. 

I never heard of 365 days, and this is not something I can find with a quick browse. Is it Nightwing or Titans?

Nightwing #152 is an epilogue of RIP which I already read, but I'm not clear on this relation to Final Crisis and all that. I'm still kinda murky on this era. I'm saying this because I still plan to read Final Crisis and the whole Morrison saga. I kinda jump back and forth here. I only picked RIP because I had a discount and already know the general idea, but ideally I prefer to start at the beginning. 

I know not all titles are related or in continuity or that I have to read from the beginning, but trying to track how the arcs relate to each other has been how I view DC ever since I first know that they do crossover. The beginnings are just much much easier.

Where is Nightwing and The Outsiders and Devin Grayson's Titans located in relation to Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis? (The DickBats era are easy to track.)

I am interested in Donna, Wally, and Deathstroke, but that'll be later.

----------


## L.H.

For On the Razor edge I mean issues #54-58, so I bet it's all on volume 7. No Selina, please!  :Wink:  In #54 you can meet Amy, too.

Sorry, it's 321 days, non 365. Nightwing issues #133-137. Wolfman wrote Dick's solo for about three or four arcs, this is the one I like more. 

#152 is just after Bruce's death, before Dick started to be Batman. 

I'm not that much into main continuity, all I know is that Titans started in 1999 (after Techinis Imperative) and Outsiders started in 2003 and ended in 2007. Between them there is Graduation Day (I hated that story), where Donna died and Dick disbanded the Titans. Roy asked Dick to built a new team, without friends, the Outsiders. Then Donna came back and Dick had a brief time with a new Titans team before becoming Batman.

----------


## 9th.

> Keep talking about him in every social media and keep asking for the movie, I guess. 
> 
> What's the recommended reading? 
> ...Besides Grayson, NTT, and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Those are already on my list. I'm reading Golden Age right now and already read Dark Victory. I've also read Batman Reborn and New 52 Nightwing. 
> I have to admit I'm not that interested in 90s Nightwing because of the art and tone but I don't mind getting them, or the other I'm not that enthusiastic, if Comixology has a sale.
> 
> Merch wise I'm interested in Jim Lee black and white statue, the New 52 ArtF+ which I love the glossy black and red, the Arkham Knight action figure and statue, they have great details those Arkham ones, the Rebirth action figure, the Perez NTT lineup, the DickBabs statue, and the Ikemen line, but statues are expensive so they're on the forever waiting list ^^
> 
> Speaking of merch, I want a Brenton Twaites Robin poster. They haven't made those yet, right?


Black Mirror is Great

----------


## dietrich

> Keep talking about him in every social media and keep asking for the movie, I guess. 
> 
> What's the recommended reading? 
> ...Besides Grayson, NTT, and Morrison's Batman and Robin. Those are already on my list. I'm reading Golden Age right now and already read Dark Victory. I've also read Batman Reborn and New 52 Nightwing. 
> I have to admit I'm not that interested in 90s Nightwing because of the art and tone but I don't mind getting them, or the other I'm not that enthusiastic, if Comixology has a sale.
> 
> Merch wise I'm interested in Jim Lee black and white statue, the New 52 ArtF+ which I love the glossy black and red, the Arkham Knight action figure and statue, they have great details those Arkham ones, the Rebirth action figure, the Perez NTT lineup, the DickBabs statue, and the Ikemen line, but statues are expensive so they're on the forever waiting list ^^
> 
> Speaking of merch, I want a Brenton Twaites Robin poster. They haven't made those yet, right?


90's Nightwing isn't actually that bad. I'm just completing it. I'm not a fan of the 90's comics or their style but I felt these were worth it. Tomasi's Nightwing run is solid.

I've seen the Jim lee figures and it is sweet. I want one. I ordered the Dick and Babs figure not because I like the pairing but because it is simply a thing of beauty.


I feel Dick Grayson's major disadvantage is that he is r

----------


## dietrich

> Interrupt a bit. Are there any circus boys, particularly acrobats and trapeze artists who wear short shorts these days or do they all wear long tights or long stockings? 
> No reason.


As someone who visits frequently. They don't wear shorts any more. The girls at times but the Guys never. They tend to go for a sexy look. Nobody is wearing tights or long stockings. Low riding jeans and even leather looking pants but not shorts or stockings. Even the ones who had matching costumes with their female co stars didn't wear shirts or tights.

----------


## Konja7

> I feel Dick Grayson's major disadvantage is that he is r


What is Dick?

----------


## Restingvoice

> For On the Razor edge I mean issues #54-58, so I bet it's all on volume 7. No Selina, please!  In #54 you can meet Amy, too.
> 
> Sorry, it's 321 days, non 365. Nightwing issues #133-137. Wolfman wrote Dick's solo for about three or four arcs, this is the one I like more. 
> 
> #152 is just after Bruce's death, before Dick started to be Batman. 
> 
> I'm not that much into main continuity, all I know is that Titans started in 1999 (after Techinis Imperative) and Outsiders started in 2003 and ended in 2007. Between them there is Graduation Day (I hated that story), where Donna died and Dick disbanded the Titans. Roy asked Dick to built a new team, without friends, the Outsiders. Then Donna came back and Dick had a brief time with a new Titans team before becoming Batman.


Okay, so straight up just volume 7 then. That's much easier. 

Whoa, I thought Amy came earlier but apparently he didn't graduate until 2000. Officer Grayson is such a synonym with Bludhaven I thought it happened much much earlier. 

Oooh this one. I've seen the cover but I thought this is part of Nightwing Year One
Attachment 73213

No problem. I checked out the date. JLA/Titans started a month earlier but ran at the same time as Nightwing/Huntress. Then Devin Grayson's Titans started the same month the two ends. These start between Cataclysm and No Man's Land. 

Team stories always run at the same time as solo stories so I'm not gonna think too deep beyond that.

I'll check the dates on the rest later.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

I think the reason many put Dixon era on a high pedestal is simply because it's the most consistentancy we know as Nightwing fans. And all too knowingly it's been a problem he's struggled with for years.

----------


## L.H.

> Okay, so straight up just volume 7 then. That's much easier. 
> 
> Whoa, I thought Amy came earlier but apparently he didn't graduate until 2000. Officer Grayson is such a synonym with Bludhaven I thought it happened much much earlier. 
> 
> Oooh this one. I've seen the cover but I thought this is part of Nightwing Year One
> Attachment 73213
> 
> No problem. I checked out the date. JLA/Titans started a month earlier but ran at the same time as Nightwing/Huntress. Then Devin Grayson's Titans started the same month the two ends. These start between Cataclysm and No Man's Land. 
> 
> ...


He graduated in Nightwing #41 (first pic, with Clancy), in #48 met Amy for the first time (second pic)

----------


## dietrich

> What is Dick?


Ha  thought I deleted that because I was gonna get into that later  :Smile:  Dick is reliable with a solid dependable base and he isn't Independent. 
I feel that DC takes this reliability and stability for granted. Like they know he can take the hit so they use him as a fall guy.

Because he is viewed as a reliable and stable IP they don't see him as a hot ticket or exciting.

If Dick was independent Dc would invest more. Imagine if Cyborg had Dick's sales and loyalty?

----------


## Ascended

> I think the reason many put Dixon era on a high pedestal is simply because it's the most consistentancy we know as Nightwing fans. And all too knowingly it's been a problem he's struggled with for years.


If we judge Dixon's run on what it is, rather than what it isn't, it's a solid, consistently enjoyable run that does a tremendous amount of world building. Yes, it divorced Dick from the Titans and every aspect of his history and character related to that franchise. It emphasized many of the similarities with Bruce; even when it attempted to subvert the Bruce-standard it often mostly just highlighted the parallels. And these things were a mistake. Looking back now I feel like Nightwing was on the rise with the NTT, but when he moved back to the Bat office, that's when his ascent started to stall out. It hurt Nightwing long term (perhaps, Im no expert) and that sh*t ain't cool.

None of that was on Dixon (I guess?) though. As I understand it, the Titans franchise was crashing (even if people were keying into Nightwing) and the Batman editorial office pulled Nightwing from the fire, then tried to downplay Dick's ties to a dying IP. DC was making this move regardless, so I feel like it's unfair to Dixon to bitch about the things he wasn't allowed to do.

And working within the parameters he had, Dixon built a city with a personality and flavor that, yeah, was a lot like Gotham but not a total copy, built a solid rogues gallery of original characters or faces so obscure they might as well have been new, and established a supporting cast that was his own. It wasn't a perfect run by any means, and this run is what really helped cement the "bat-lite" problems, but it was quite solid and well crafted for what it was allowed to be.

----------


## Aahz

At the time when Dixons Run started Dick hadn't been a regular on Titans for about 3 years. And they has Just relaunched Titans with a line up that had almost no connection to the original incarnation.

And I don't think they down played his connection to the Titans, it is just the usual practice that they usually keep out the Team stuff out of the solo Bat-Books. The Justice League and Outsiders almost never appeared in Batman, Young Justice and Teen Titans hardly showed up in Tim's Robin book ...

And already in issue #10 of that run you had some of the Titans show up in fear gas induced hallucination.

----------


## Konja7

> If we judge Dixon's run on what it is, rather than what it isn't, it's a solid, consistently enjoyable run that does a tremendous amount of world building. Yes, it divorced Dick from the Titans and every aspect of his history and character related to that franchise. It emphasized many of the similarities with Bruce; even when it attempted to subvert the Bruce-standard it often mostly just highlighted the parallels. And these things were a mistake. Looking back now I feel like Nightwing was on the rise with the NTT, but when he moved back to the Bat office, that's when his ascent started to stall out. It hurt Nightwing long term (perhaps, Im no expert) and that sh*t ain't cool.
> 
> None of that was on Dixon (I guess?) though. As I understand it, the Titans franchise was crashing (even if people were keying into Nightwing) and the Batman editorial office pulled Nightwing from the fire, then tried to downplay Dick's ties to a dying IP. DC was making this move regardless, so I feel like it's unfair to Dixon to bitch about the things he wasn't allowed to do.
> 
> And working within the parameters he had, Dixon built a city with a personality and flavor that, yeah, was a lot like Gotham but not a total copy, built a solid rogues gallery of original characters or faces so obscure they might as well have been new, and established a supporting cast that was his own. It wasn't a perfect run by any means, and this run is what really helped cement the "bat-lite" problems, but it was quite solid and well crafted for what it was allowed to be.


I would say that it wasn't exactly a mistake from DC to divorce Dick from the Titans. 

The franchise of Titans was at a bad place at that time (and has not really recovered), so they decided to try to put Dick in a safe place like Batman office.

In the long term, that has brought several problems, but it was probably necessary to Dick at that time.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Black Mirror is Great


Oh yeah. That's already on the list too. I already wanted to get it ever since I like The Court of Owls but I held it off because it was previous continuity and I was focusing on New 52 at the time.

I forgot to say, about Teen Titans Year One, I've seen a few pages and I really like the art, it's Karl Kerschl, but it has the jerk Bruce I hate.

I'm checking out the timeline again. The first formation of Teen Titans from The Brave and The Bold happened after the first adventure of Justice League of America but before Barbara Gordon's debut.

----------


## WonderNight

> If we judge Dixon's run on what it is, rather than what it isn't, it's a solid, consistently enjoyable run that does a tremendous amount of world building. Yes, it divorced Dick from the Titans and every aspect of his history and character related to that franchise. It emphasized many of the similarities with Bruce; even when it attempted to subvert the Bruce-standard it often mostly just highlighted the parallels. And these things were a mistake. Looking back now I feel like Nightwing was on the rise with the NTT, but when he moved back to the Bat office, that's when his ascent started to stall out. It hurt Nightwing long term (perhaps, Im no expert) and that sh*t ain't cool.
> 
> None of that was on Dixon (I guess?) though. As I understand it, the Titans franchise was crashing (even if people were keying into Nightwing) and the Batman editorial office pulled Nightwing from the fire, then tried to downplay Dick's ties to a dying IP. DC was making this move regardless, so I feel like it's unfair to Dixon to bitch about the things he wasn't allowed to do.
> 
> And working within the parameters he had, Dixon built a city with a personality and flavor that, yeah, was a lot like Gotham but not a total copy, built a solid rogues gallery of original characters or faces so obscure they might as well have been new, and established a supporting cast that was his own. It wasn't a perfect run by any means, and this run is what really helped cement the "bat-lite" problems, but it was quite solid and well crafted for what it was allowed to be.


my problem ist with Dixon. I like Dixon, and it was what dick needed at THAT time. But this is not that time anymore. All the things that worked back then are the things holding him back now. Move on.

----------


## WonderNight

> I would say that it wasn't exactly a mistake form DC to divorce Dick from the Titans. 
> 
> The franchise of Titans was at a bad place at that time (and has not really recovered), so they decided to try to put Dick in a safe place like Batman office.
> 
> In the long term, that has brought several problems, but it was probably necessary to Dick at that time.


If the titans has had theses same problem scents the 90s way not just do and make something new. A new team. Not everything has to be about living in the past.

----------


## nhienphan2808

My problem isnt with the run itself just how Dixon is one of those writers what bends their writting to editorial mandate to sabotage NW over time. Dick's personality more boxed in and origin gets worse the more he writes for the sake of other Bat character., It's his personality to act chill and make way for Batman after all, so bringing him back to the Bats just decided he's just grown up Robin, you can hardly do it differently. 

The only difference between Dixon and then say now is i could say that it was Dick growing up that he came back to his family when he HAS already made a name outside. Can't say the same  about Prime Earth Dick who has to be dumped back to Bludhaven without any prior development. Like when Bruce and Babs said it was too dangerous for him. Untrue for NewEarth Dick, but of course they wouldnt trust PE Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

> If the titans has had theses same problem scents the 90s way not just do and make something new. A new team. Not everything has to be about living in the past.


Sometimes they don’t need to start new but take a break and regroup. The Titans have time and time again proven that it can be a viable draw. Even this last series. So a market is clearly there, which is not something you just throw away, and what’s more there are people at DC that want grow that market. 
Unfortunately the comic side just don’t seem to agree. Which just boggles my mind. The people who run the comics don’t want to do shit with the Titans, not really. Even when thier streaming service launch’s a Titan show. They just continue to repeatedly half ass their attempts to revitalize it with unsuited creators and quite frankly bad and meaningless ideas. Honestly I don’t get it. Usually concepts and characters get pushed when they have cross media adaptations going on. Not the Titans though. I honestly think something stinks there.

----------


## Konja7

> Sometimes they don’t need to start new but take a break and regroup. The Titans have time and time again proven that it can be a viable draw. Even this last series. So a market is clearly there, which is not something you just throw away, and what’s more there are people at DC that want grow that market. 
> Unfortunately the comic side just don’t seem to agree. Which just boggles my mind. The people who run the comics don’t want to do shit with the Titans, not really. Even when thier streaming service launch’s a Titan show. They just continue to repeatedly half ass their attempts to revitalize it with unsuited creators and quite frankly bad and meaningless ideas. Honestly I don’t get it. Usually concepts and characters get pushed when they have cross media adaptations going on. Not the Titans though. I honestly think something stinks there.


Well, it's possible that is because the sales of Titans comics don't increase according to the other media exposition. At the end, it seems the success in another media doesn't translate on the sales of the comics. 

Also, the success or failure of the comics don't affect the succes of the TV series or cartoon. So, DC entertainment doesnt have much reasons to press DC comics. 

It doesn't help that the story of Titans on the other media are pretty different to the story on the current comics. 


PS: Wonder Woman film was pretty succesful, but I've understood that DC comics still doesn't know how handle her.

----------


## Godlike13

At yet they nevertheless push seemingly every other property the has other media exposer going on. Even Wonder Woman saw a bigger push after the movie. A Rucka run, leading role in events like Darkseid War, etc.

----------


## Jackalope89

With people like DiDio running (ruining) things, don't expect much good to happen to Dick and his generation in the comics. DiDio is the same guy that wanted to kill Dick off way back when.

----------


## Konja7

> With people like DiDio running (ruining) things, don't expect much good to happen to Dick and his generation in the comics. DiDio is the same guy that wanted to kill Dick off way back when.


Honestly, I don't think Didio is the main responsible for the situation of Dick, since I don't think he has so much power. 

Didio wants to kill Dick, but other people opposed to this decision, so Dick survived. 

However, these people don't oppose to the idea that Nightwing isn't good enough to have a really good writer (an idea that seems to exist before Didio start to work on DC).

----------


## oasis1313

> Sometimes they don’t need to start new but take a break and regroup. The Titans have time and time again proven that it can be a viable draw. Even this last series. So a market is clearly there, which is not something you just throw away, and what’s more there are people at DC that want grow that market. 
> Unfortunately the comic side just don’t seem to agree. Which just boggles my mind. The people who run the comics don’t want to do shit with the Titans, not really. Even when thier streaming service launch’s a Titan show. They just continue to repeatedly half ass their attempts to revitalize it with unsuited creators and quite frankly bad and meaningless ideas. Honestly I don’t get it. Usually concepts and characters get pushed when they have cross media adaptations going on. Not the Titans though. I honestly think something stinks there.


"If they COULD be rocket scientists, they WOULD be rocket scientists."

----------


## oasis1313

> With people like DiDio running (ruining) things, don't expect much good to happen to Dick and his generation in the comics. DiDio is the same guy that wanted to kill Dick off way back when.


Hopefully, Didio was pleasantly surprised to see how much and how many people genuinely LOVE his Grayson property.  I keep thinking that, as Publisher, if he REALLY wanted the character dead in a fanboyish way, it would have been four-color death for our guy.  I mean, if I was DC Publisher, Tim Dreck would be dead very quickly in the most cruel, painful, ugly, messy, inhumane, IRREVERSIBLE ways I could devise--and NOBODY would be able to sweet-talk me out of it.  Maybe the whole thing is a joke to him, as evidenced by his revealing his Nightwing t-shirt under his regular shirt at the Con.  He likes to troll the fans--maybe he just tossed out a notion to see what kind of response it would get, then seeing that Wingnuts are totally deadly serious about their boy, thought, "I might lose some money if these crazed lunatics go on the rampage--or at least the rest of my luggage."  Geoff Johns reportedly talked Didio out of his Big Death!!!! idea, and now he's really doing well for the character in the Titans show, hopefully showing that keeping Dick around was a good idea.

----------


## Restingvoice

I want to add something I just realize. The reason why DC doesn't care as much about Titans gen compared to Justice League gen. It isn't just about popularity and bias, but also about how they sell the stories. 

DC and Marvel know that events and crossovers bring in money. Then if a popular character star in an event, they bring in even more money, but because it's an event, something big has to happen. Either death or the universe breaking. 

So now their way of thinking starts with "who is expendable in an event that can star these money-making characters?" 

We know who the popular, high selling characters are. Batman, Superman, Harley, Wonder Woman, and so on. Next, they pick the victims where the grand change can happen, like the forgotten Titans and the heroes of Crisis of Infinite Earths that nobody used. How they pick these characters can be a combination of sales and personal bias, but the important thing is they have a general idea when making the plan. 

That's only the beginning, though.
After that, they apply that kind of thinking when arranging the regular series.

"Now that we're making a series of books that will begin and end in an event, who's the popular character that will star in this event and therefore has to last long term and who are the expendables that we can change or kill and so we don't have to think about them too much?" 

So starting from that point, they place the important writers on the important characters or the ones they believe will net them profit. Then they leave everyone else to to the rest. They allow everyone to write whatever they want, as long as they let them go when the time comes for the event, and if a writer ask if they can anything to a certain character, the answer depend on how important they are. 

This means the expendable characters will not be given an important storyline or they limit their importance depending on their standard. That way, whenever an event come, and whoever came up with the idea, they are ready to be used because they are never important. 

Now, the event can come from DC higher up or from best selling head writers. It doesn't matter. What matter is, DC already determine, whether by sale or personal bias, which character they allow to run free and which one has to follow, and they arrange this whole universe based on that rule. This rule can change, like how Hal Jordan's importance is waning while Harley Quinn is rising, but it can last a long time.

*Tldr, these framing events, where characters can become a star or expendable, are the markers, the determiners on which characters get to be important in the series and which one they don't have to care about.*

----------


## Restingvoice

I realized that kind of thinking because that's how I think as a buyer when I first got into comics.

"Okay, so there's an event. There are so many books. Who are the important ones? The one that I have to buy?"

In New 52, it's the Justice League. Then because they each have their own books or lead their own family where the head of the family is the initiator of a crossover or event, the hierarchy is clear. 
In Rebirth, based on DC Universe Rebirth #1 I figured it was Batman, Wally, Barry, and Superman. 

Turned out I was right. Almost. Wally didn't turn to be as important as I thought, which is where I realize that there's a personal bias element. 

During the New 52, I was never under the impression that Nightwing is important at all, because he is within Batman's family, and events are determined by the Batman book or higher, like the Justice League or worldwide event Forever Evil. So whatever happened to him I wasn't angry. DC made it clear by their hierarchy that he's not as important, and I responded that way. The way they want it, I assume. 

There was a time where Dick was rising, that was during his birth year and he lead the family both in Robin War and Eternal. Then during Rebirth, even though he's not the stars of Rebirth or a Justice League member, he gets twice monthly issue. This tell me that he's supposed to be more important than he was in New 52. Not as important as Batman and the others who are the stars of Rebirth #1, but more important than the characters who doesn't get twice monthly. 

However, at this point I already saw what else they've done in the past, and the potential certain characters have if they are allowed to develop naturally, not limited by the Framing Events... but even then I can still accept it... if they're at least fair and consistent about it, and they make it clear to the readers that this is how they do things. 

They don't. Continuity is a mess, I'm getting mixed signals from their marketing, and I'm sure a lot of readers don't know this is how they think because they just want to read about their favorite characters in peace.  

Like... if this arrangement is how DC want it to be, if they want to make a world with clear hierarchy and this is how they want people to buy them, then fine, but make it clear so I don't have to waste my time, and don't place personal opinion above story or sales, ideally both.

----------


## WonderNight

So the question becomes why don't they view nightwing as part of the hierarchy? I say it's because nightwing is still viewed as Batman's and is to similar to Batman. Because nightwing is just Batman lite they feel he doesn't bring anything to the table. He's just a guy who's to old to be robin so they throw him in his little corner isolated form the dcu and is just used to push Batman's story and world. 

Like a good little sidekick.

----------


## Konja7

> Like a good little sidekick.


That comparison is wrong. DC does more for a good little sideckick. In fact, DC did more for Dick when he was Robin.

The problem is that Dick is in a complicated situation. DC doesn't want Batman to look old, so they don't allow Dick to grow.

----------


## Badou

I think there are two reasons. One is an in comics reason and the other is an outside comics reason. The comics one is that he is stuck behind more popular and iconic characters in Batman and even Robin. To them why should they invest more time and resources in a lesser property in Nightwing when they can use Batman and know it will do better? Batman is the character creators want to use and the one the public wants to read. So it cuts the opportunities a character like Nightwing can have when he is competing against more iconic characters. It is the same for the adult Titans verses the Justice League. Dick as a character is stuck in this limbo of being too old to be Robin but too young to be Batman. As they don't want to age up Bruce anymore. So many in DC like a Didio don't view the Nightwing character as being that important. 

The second reason, and probably the more important reason, is brand power. This relates basically how strong a brand is and how that relates to sales from everything to comics and especially merch. This is how a character like Harley can get such a massive push regardless if her comic sales have fallen off (they have) because she still has such a strong brand recognition and can sell so much merch. So that makes DC/WB want to use her more and more to keep her brand relevant. Outside comics Nightwing isn't a strong brand. Every time the character is used in other media it is on a team show, a bit part in a video game, or just part of an animated movie. I still think it is telling that when Dick got his first lead in an animated movie it was as Batman. 

So until you actually see DC/WB put the Nightwing name on things and in titles his brand is going to be limited and that means his opportunities will also be limited. It is why I hope there is a Nightiwng spinoff show because I think that will be the only thing that can really change the status quo of the character. Something from outside comics that actually has the Nightwing name in the title and branding.

----------


## Konja7

> At yet they nevertheless push seemingly every other property the has other media exposer going on. Even Wonder Woman saw a bigger push after the movie. A Rucka run, leading role in events like Darkseid War, etc.


I was looking for more information. The cartoon for Teen Titans started in 2003, they seem to push Teen Titans comic in this same year (in fact, the comic Teen Titans started again). Geoff Johns was the writer, they put YJ4 in the comic and the first group included Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Cyborg and a Robin.

It's curious they don't put this effort for Titans, which has a new series. Maybe it's because they don't know how handle the group. 


PS: Some months earlier Teen Titans had among its members Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and a Robin, but this was not working.

----------


## Gray Lensman

> I was looking for more information. The cartoon for Teen Titans started in 2003, they seem to push Teen Titans comic in this same year (in fact, the comic Teen Titans started again). Geoff Johns was the writer, they put YJ4 in the comic and the first group included Starfire, Beast Boy, Raven, Cyborg *and a Robin*.
> 
> It's curious they don't put this effort for Titans, which has a new series. Maybe it's because they don't know how handle the group. 
> 
> 
> PS: Some months earlier Teen Titans had among its my members Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and a Robin, but this was not working.


The thing is, if you are trying to tie into the TV show, you can't just use any old Robin, it has to be a specific one.

----------


## Jackalope89

> The thing is, if you are trying to tie into the TV show, you can't just use any old Robin, it has to be a specific one.


And Damian... 
He has come a long way since his debut as an assassin wearing the Robin outfit. No question. But, the New Teen Titans were formed by Dick Grayson Robin. A very different personality to his future little brother by any account.

----------


## Pohzee

I was listening to Tom King on the Gotham by Geeks podcast and he made his dislike of the current Nightwing storyline apparent. He also clarified what happened regarding Batman #55.

Shooting Dick was his idea. He wanted it to be a part of the Bane story. He says that he doesn't like derailing other writers so he told DC "I'm shooting Nightwing in the head, I can fix this next issue with a Zatanna spell or you can run with it. Your choice." And they decided to run with it. So that's the whole story I guess. No grand plans to bring him back into the spotlight. No plan to ruin him. Just DC deciding to pick up on a potential tie-in for some sales.

----------


## Konja7

> The thing is, if you are trying to tie into the TV show, you can't just use any old Robin, it has to be a specific one.


The thing is that Dick wasn't Robin in 2003, while the cartoon uses Robin as a character (he's Dick, but Robin is the character for the audience). So, if they want to generate a connection between the cartoon and the comic, they need to use a Robin. 

It's possible they tried to do the same in the current Teen Titans comics, but it wasn't working. So, they change Damian's team if Teen Titans.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I was listening to Tom King on the Gotham by Geeks podcast and he made his dislike of the current Nightwing storyline apparent. He also clarified what happened regarding Batman #55.
> 
> Shooting Dick was his idea. He wanted it to be a part of the Bane story. He says that he doesn't like derailing other writers so he told DC "I'm shooting Nightwing in the head, I can fix this next issue with a Zatanna spell or you can run with it. Your choice." And they decided to run with it. So that's the whole story I guess. No grand plans to bring him back into the spotlight. No plan to ruin him. Just DC deciding to pick up on a potential tie-in for some sales.


Thank you. 
It make sense for Dick to visit Batman when he's down and it also make sense for Bane if he wants to psychologically break Batman to target Dick after Selina, then follow it up with Gordon and Alfred. Those things are not the problem. It's when they derail the story in his own titles it become a problem. 
It can just be a short-term plot in Batman. The story in Nightwing can be set in the past or future while waiting for the Batman plot to be done.

No, even if they decided to go through with long term amnesia Nightwing, I wouldn't mind as much if the Nightwing writer agrees to do it, incorporating his story with King and working together to do a proper event.

This is the problem with DC. They didn't tell Devin Grayson that they wanted to kill Nightwing and nuke Bludhaven. They only tell Higgins that his identity will be exposed after he set up Zucco. Now they do the same to Percy.

----------


## Godlike13

Damian’s first TT was created to match the animated movies they were going on.

----------


## Godlike13

> I was listening to Tom King on the Gotham by Geeks podcast and he made his dislike of the current Nightwing storyline apparent. He also clarified what happened regarding Batman #55.
> 
> Shooting Dick was his idea. He wanted it to be a part of the Bane story. He says that he doesn't like derailing other writers so he told DC "I'm shooting Nightwing in the head, I can fix this next issue with a Zatanna spell or you can run with it. Your choice." And they decided to run with it. So that's the whole story I guess. No grand plans to bring him back into the spotlight. No plan to ruin him. Just DC deciding to pick up on a potential tie-in for some sales.


That’s sounds about right. The next evolution of Dick Grayson was always just a bunch of horse crap. There was no grand plan, that was clear from the get go. They wanted a sales stunt, but then put it in the hands of editors that just weren’t equipped to run with anything. And so they came up with this mess. What a joke. What an absolute joke. Course nothing will change, of course there’s was no grand plan here, his readers just have to eat this something last minute direction by Scott Lobdell until the book gets cancelled. Which they of course will put on the readers.

Though Listening to the Podcast Kings idea would have been a kick in the nuts. Dick would be in bed having to relearn to read and stuff while Tim takes over as Nightwing. But ya, he’s far from enthusiastic about this Ric crap.

----------


## Konja7

> Damian’s first TT was created to match the animated movies they were going on.


Thank you for the clarification. That has sense.


Maybe they don't push Titans, because the group is different (and Titans comics hasn't a Robin).

----------


## Restingvoice

The timing for Titans is bad. We have three major writers having different ideas at the same time. 

Johns directed the Titans using the classic characters. 

Snyder writes new Justice League books with half of the nostalgia to the animated series and the other half creating something new. So he and his team puts Starfire and Cyborg on one Justice League.

King was planning Heroes in Crisis which he asked DC for characters he can use. DC gave him Wally and Roy, so they're taken off Titans.

That leaves Dick and Raven on Titans until King started his amnesia plot and DC decided to make it long term. So now Dick's off the table too. 

Normally DC will follow their TV or movie, like how they made Justice League vs Suicide Squad, Doomsday fighting Superman at the start of Rebirth, redefining Diana's origin, and pushing Damian to Teen Titans at the same time as their movies.

However DC is also the type to let their big writers do whatever they want... and they're all big writers. So while they all don't compete directly with each other, DC gave the go to all of them, and the result is split Titans in comics at the same time as TV Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

> That’s sounds about right. The next evolution of Dick Grayson was always just a bunch of horse crap. There was no grand plan, that was clear from the get go. They wanted a sales stunt, but then put it in the hands of editors that just weren’t equipped to run with anything. And so they came up with this mess. What a joke. What an absolute joke. Course nothing will change, of course there’s was no grand plan here, his readers just have to eat this something last minute direction by Scott Lobdell until the book gets cancelled. Which they of course will put on the readers.
> 
> Though Listening to the Podcast Kings idea would have been a kick in the nuts. Dick would be in bed having to relearn to read and stuff while Tim takes over as Nightwing.


Everything about that podcast hurt.

Dick is no longer his favorite character.

He wanted Tim to take over as Nightwing and spoon feed Dick back to health.

Dick in Wolfman's Titans was written like Tim? Gimme a break! He can't be Tim, Tim didn't exist yet. If anything TIM stole Dick's shtick. This goes EXACTLY to show how the many Robin only go to take away from each other.

I'm tired of Dick being the happy prettyboy. His character was more interesting in the 70s and 80s than now but apparently now that's Tim? No way.

----------


## Konja7

> The timing for Titans is bad. We have three major writers having different ideas at the same time. 
> 
> Johns directed the Titans using the classic characters. 
> 
> Snyder writes new Justice League books with half of the nostalgia to the animated series and the other half creating something new. So he and his team puts Starfire and Cyborg on one Justice League.
> 
> King was planning Heroes in Crisis which he asked DC for characters he can use. DC gave him Wally and Roy, so they're taken off Titans.
> 
> That leaves Dick and Raven on Titans until King started his amnesia plot and DC decided to make it long term. So now Dick's off the table too. 
> ...


Thank you for the explanation. 

I understand. The timing for Titans was pretty bad.

----------


## nhienphan2808

What? Is King on something? Dick in NTT was written like Tim? He said that? 

I hope i heard that wrong. Though otherwise i wouldnt be surprised. I always feel like there's something wrong about his trying to paint Dick as this guy who never has emotional problems while Bruce has ALL of them, and [Dick] says "like' 10 times in a page.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, but i think he meant that in that Dick in NTT was written like what Tim would come to be. Which is Bruce like. Which is not wrong to a sense. Cause he did have a stick up his ass during NTT, and was that serious guy on the team. But i always saw that as part of his growing process. He was raised by Bruce, and Bruce was Dick's primary example of what an adult superhero looks like, so of course he's gonna rub off on him. But because of his time in NTT he was able to start to shed that and lighten up more again. Realizing more as he grows up that he's not Bruce, and who he is as an adult doesn't have to be Batman. So to me NTT shouldn't be Dick's default personality either. Even though i think that it worked for him during NTT, and it works as him trying to find his true self with his friends. This is part of why im liking the Titans show right now. Because while its more extreme, at that same time it is resonating with that.
 Though at the same time Dick isn't a clown. He's not just a happy pretty boy, but someone who was raised by Batman. And that too often does get forgotten. There's a balance that really shouldn't be that hard to find if some of his creators just gave half a crap.

----------


## nhienphan2808

> Ya, but i think he meant that in that Dick in NTT was written like what Tim would come to be. Which is Bruce like. Which is not wrong to a sense. Cause he did have a stick up his ass during NTT, and was that serious guy on the team. But i always saw that as part of his growing process. He was raised by Bruce, so of course he's gonna rub off on him. But because of his time in NTT he was able to start to shed that and lighten up more again. Realize as he grows up that he's not Bruce. To me that shouldn't be Dick's default personality either. Even though i think that it worked for him during NTT, and it works as its him trying to find his true self with his friends. This is part of why im liking the Titans show right now. Becuse while its more extreme, it is also resonating with that.
>  Though at the same time Dick isn't a clown. He's not just a happy pretty boy, but someone who was raised by Batman. And that too often does get forgotten. There's a balance that really shouldn't be that hard to find if some of his creators just gave half a crap.


I mean, NTT Dick while he is a raging teen, he has his happy and relaxed moments too and either way he still served as leader and thinker, the detective, the tactician. I don't mind different temperaments, I just feel like with writers like King, people gonna think only Tim can do those and Dick is only the emotional and the peacemaker. I don't want to hate tim but it's things like this that makes me feel sad for Dick and how he gets flanderized the more modern the comics get. Kings Dick is annoying and incompetent and a fodder.

----------


## oasis1313

> Ya, but i think he meant that in that Dick in NTT was written like what Tim would come to be. Which is Bruce like. Which is not wrong to a sense. Cause he did have a stick up his ass during NTT, and was that serious guy on the team. But i always saw that as part of his growing process. He was raised by Bruce, and Bruce was Dick's primary example of what an adult superhero looks like, so of course he's gonna rub off on him. But because of his time in NTT he was able to start to shed that and lighten up more again. Realizing more as he grows up that he's not Bruce, and who he is as an adult doesn't have to be Batman. So to me NTT shouldn't be Dick's default personality either. Even though i think that it worked for him during NTT, and it works as him trying to find his true self with his friends. This is part of why im liking the Titans show right now. Because while its more extreme, at that same time it is resonating with that.
>  Though at the same time Dick isn't a clown. He's not just a happy pretty boy, but someone who was raised by Batman. And that too often does get forgotten. There's a balance that really shouldn't be that hard to find if some of his creators just gave half a crap.


It just feels like nobody at DC gives a crap about any of the Family except Tim Dreck and whatzisname--?  Oh, yeah, I think his name was Bruce, but who cares?

----------


## Godlike13

It is starting to seem like there is no one at DC that has any idea's or even interest in truly bettering or evolving Dick or Nightwing. Its sucks to be a Nightwing reader right now. His editors clearly don't give a crap, creators are running or have no interest, and so Nightwing readers get stuck with last resort, out of touch, creators who are just there to get his books to print. There's no actual passion for the character or his books, no real ideas for growth or betterment, no protection of what they have, no incentive even to produce a decent book for a market that will support the book 2 times a month for over 50 issues. Seems like for intents and purposes they have given up on the character. Its rather bleak.

----------


## Badou

> I was listening to Tom King on the Gotham by Geeks podcast and he made his dislike of the current Nightwing storyline apparent. He also clarified what happened regarding Batman #55.
> 
> Shooting Dick was his idea. He wanted it to be a part of the Bane story. He says that he doesn't like derailing other writers so he told DC "I'm shooting Nightwing in the head, I can fix this next issue with a Zatanna spell or you can run with it. Your choice." And they decided to run with it. So that's the whole story I guess. No grand plans to bring him back into the spotlight. No plan to ruin him. Just DC deciding to pick up on a potential tie-in for some sales.


Honestly, if you want to do a story where you shoot a character like Nightwing in the head then you should follow up on it. As the lead Batman writer if you want to use a character in such a drastic way then I think the responsibility falls on the writer to have a plan to follow it up. King had no interest in the Dick part of his story and it was only there to prop up his ongoing story with Bruce. It was the same situation with Johns in Forever Evil when Johns decided to expose his identity to the world to prop up his Forever Evil event. I said it then that Johns should have had a plan to follow it up with the character, but like King here he had no interest in that part of the story. 

The difference is that in that situation we lucked out and we somehow stumbled into the Grayson series, but this time it all completely fell flat on its face and we have this Ric Grayson story no one really cares about. 

That being said I still think that DC used this opportunity as an excuse to take Dick off the table and isolate him in Bludhaven so they wouldn't have to deal with the HiC fallout. I don't think this was the main reason for all of this but I think it was a small part of it still.

----------


## oasis1313

> It is starting to seem like there is no one at DC that has any idea's or interest in truly bettering or evolving Dick or Nightwing. Its sucks to be a Nightwing reader right now. His editors clearly don't give a crap, creators are running or have no interest, and so Nightwing readers get stuck with last resort, out of touch, creators who are just there to get his book to print. There's no actual passion for the character or his books, no real ideas for growth or betterment, no protection of what they have, no incentive to even produce a decent book for a market that will support the book 2 times a month for over 50 issues. Seems like for intents and purposes they have given up on the character. Its rather brutal.


Tell me about it.  This has been going on for over sixty years out of my life.

----------


## Konja7

> Honestly, if you want to do a story where you shoot a character like Nightwing in the head then you should follow up on it. As the lead Batman writer if you want to use a character in such a drastic way then I think the responsibility falls on the writer to have a plan to follow it up. King had no interest in the Dick part of his story and it was only there to prop up his ongoing story with Bruce. It was the same situation with Johns in Forever Evil when Johns decided to expose his identity to the world to prop up his Forever Evil event. I said it then that Johns should have had a plan to follow it up with the character, but like King here he had no interest in that part of the story.


I agree. I think writers shouldn't use characters like Nightwing on that way if they don't have plans to develop the character part of the story. 

I can even see why DC doesn't want Zatanna spell to solve things, because it would be a dumb resolution. I mean it takes away a lot of the relevance and drama of the shot. I don't know how Tom King though a Zatanna spell in the next issue is an option (or a good idea for his current story). 

Of course, it would be convenient for Dick to be magically healed (the amnesia arc is a horrible decision). However, DC doesn't care about Nightwing, its decision is to help the current narrative of Tom King

----------


## Konja7

> I mean, NTT Dick while he is a raging teen, he has his happy and relaxed moments too and either way he still served as leader and thinker, the detective, the tactician. I don't mind different temperaments, I just feel like with writers like King, people gonna think only Tim can do those and Dick is only the emotional and the peacemaker. I don't want to hate tim but it's things like this that makes me feel sad for Dick and how he gets flanderized the more modern the comics get. Kings Dick is annoying and incompetent and a fodder.


All characters has relaxed and happy moments, even Batman.

Dick was similar Batman in NTT (maybe more sociable). The problem is Dick couldn't be so similar to Batman when he returned to Batman office. So, they become Dick on the happy pretty boy. 

Tim becoming so similar to Batman has given the character problems. He can't mantain a solo in Batman office (probably because he's too similar to Batman). Honestly, if it were not for Bendis wish of a nostalgic Young Justice comic (where Tim is Robin again), Tim would be in a worse situation than Dick.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Tim becoming so similar to Batman has given the character problems. He can't mantain a solo in Batman office (probably because he's too similar to Batman). Honestly, if it were not for Bendis wish of a nostalgic Young Justice comic (where Tim is Robin again), Tim would be in a worse situation than Dick.


That's bull. Tim could maintain a solo, but DC doesn't give him a chance. Since the reboot, they don't care about him. He was a constant seller before the New52 for almost 20 years, so there is no reason at all why he couldn't have a solo series.

----------


## Konja7

> That's bull. Tim could maintain a solo, but DC doesn't give him a chance. Since the reboot, they don't care about him. He was a constant seller before the New52 for almost 20 years, so there is no reason at all why he couldn't have a solo series.


Sorry, I expressed myself badly. My point was that Tim can't mantain a solo in the Batman office, because they won't allow a character simlar in personality to Batman (like Tim become in his last years before New 52).

That said, the sales of Red Robin were falling before the New 52. That's probably one of the reasons why they put Tim on Teen Titans, because they know it would be more profitable. 

DC had expectatives on Teen Titans, it was the face of brand for young heroes at that moment.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Sorry, I expressed myself badly. My point was that Tim can't mantain a solo in the Batman office, because they won't allow a character simlar in personality to Batman (like Tim become in his last years before New 52).
> 
> That said, the sales of Red Robin were falling before the New 52. That's probably one of the reasons why they put Tim on Teen Titans, because they know it would be more profitable. 
> 
> DC had expectatives on Teen Titans, it was the face of brand for young heroes at that moment.


You mean before the reboot when everyone knew the status quo will change so all the books lost a lot of readers? That doesn't prove anything. Tim is different than Bruce. They can co-exist next to each other. Marcus To and Fabian Nicieza want to do a Tim solo for years, but Didio obviously doesn't want that. 
Tim works best in solo. I hate it when they put him in team books. It's toxic for him.

----------


## Konja7

> You mean before the reboot when everyone knew the status quo will change so all the books lost a lot of readers? That doesn't prove anything.


Even before that, the sales were falling (maybe at a slower pace, but they did).

Anyway, this isn't the thread to speak so much about Tim.

----------


## Konja7

Changing of topic, I wonder what would happen after the Nightwing comic is cancelled.

DC may wants to push Titans comics for the second season of Titans (where Dick should be Nightwing). Maybe they put Nightwing in Titans (and don't give Dick a solo), so they force all the fans of Dick Grayson to buy Titans comic.

----------


## oasis1313

> That's bull. Tim could maintain a solo, but DC doesn't give him a chance. Since the reboot, they don't care about him. He was a constant seller before the New52 for almost 20 years, so there is no reason at all why he couldn't have a solo series.


Just wait a few months:  Tim is soon going to be covered in so much glory and hype even the biggest Dreck fanboys will be sick of it.  Tim has been kept SAFE for his upcoming coronation, so I'd gladly trade my situation as a Wingnut for what the Tim Lemmings are going to be reaping.  I boycott everything Timmy Wimmy is in so I expect to save a lot of money, just booked a cruise from Rome to Miami (old folks like to go on cruises) so I'll probably be down on DC to nothing but Dick appearances.  More money to buy booze on the boat and try to forget the injustice of all this for awhile.  Dick Grayson will be around long after these yoyo's are out cruising with me.  I AM liking his treatment in the Titans show:  Geoff Johns saved our guy from Forever Evil and now he's doing right by him.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Even before that, the sales were falling (maybe at a slower pace, but they did).
> 
> Anyway, this isn't the thread to speak so much about Tim.


Not really. In 2011 January his book sold 30,547 copies. In 2011 August, the last month before the reboot, his book still sold 26,939 copies. Teen Titans sold 27,459 copies before the reboot. Like I said, there is no reason why DC doesn't give him a chance. Tim haven't got even a miniseries since the New52. They wanted a Robin in Teen Titans, so they put him in there. Tim got the short stick with the reboot and then Lobdell destroyed him and the rest of the YJ4 completely.

----------


## shadowsgirl

> Just wait a few months:  Tim is soon going to be covered in so much glory and hype even the biggest Dreck fanboys will be sick of it.  Tim has been kept SAFE for his upcoming coronation, so I'd gladly trade my situation as a Wingnut for what the Tim Lemmings are going to be reaping.  I boycott everything Timmy Wimmy is in so I expect to save a lot of money, just booked a cruise from Rome to Miami (old folks like to go on cruises) so I'll probably be down on DC to nothing but Dick appearances.  More money to buy booze on the boat and try to forget the injustice of all this for awhile.


I don't care about your opinion at all. Every day for years now you write hateful things about Tim. I just don't get it. You have a serious grudge against a *fictional character* and you take your time to express that hatred every single day. This is totally incomprehensible to me.

----------


## oasis1313

> Not really. In 2011 January his book sold 30,547 copies. In 2011 August, the last month before the reboot, his book still sold 26,939 copies. Teen Titans sold 27,459 copies before the reboot. Like I said, there is no reason why DC doesn't give him a chance. Tim didn't get even a miniseries since the New52. They wanted a Robin in Teen Titans, so they put him in there. Tim got the short stick with the reboot and then Lobdell destroyed him and the YJ4 completely.


Remember that comics in general were selling better 7-8 years ago than they are now.  Anyway, a lot of Dick Grayson's problems have been caused by editorial favoritism to toward Timmy Wimmy, so "Thank you, Scott Lobdell, for destroying him and the YJ4 completely!!  I love ya, man!!!"  If I ever do bestir my old bones enough to go to a big Con, I'm going to shake his hand.  I think he's trying to do the best he can with the crap King handed him, but it's the proverbial trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I think this might be the worst Grayson "direction" ever.  I was pretty unhappy while Wolfman had such a bad case of writer's block and was running the New Titans book into the ground, pleased by the Dixon era.  If Lobdell can do for Nightwing what he's done for Red Hood, I have some optimism.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Changing of topic, I wonder what would happen after the Nightwing comic is cancelled.
> 
> DC may wants to push Titans comics for the second season of Titans (where Dick should be Nightwing). Maybe they put Nightwing in Titans (and don't give Dick a solo), so they force all the fans of Dick Grayson to buy Titans comic.


who said its getting cancelled

----------


## Konja7

> who said its getting cancelled


Well, taking into account sales, the current Nightwing comic should be cancelled soon. The amnesia arc seems filler. 

We don't know what happen after that. Maybe they relaunch another Nightwing comic with a new direction. Or maybe they put Dick on a team (and he doesn't have a solo).

----------


## WonderNight

> Changing of topic, I wonder what would happen after the Nightwing comic is cancelled.
> 
> DC may wants to push Titans comics for the second season of Titans (where Dick should be Nightwing). Maybe they put Nightwing in Titans (and don't give Dick a solo), so they force all the fans of Dick Grayson to buy Titans comic.


Titans looks to be the one geting cancelled with all this new team books on the way. But if nightwing and titans gets cancelled then what for dick.

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans looks to be the one geting canceled with all this new team books on the way. But if nightwing and titans gets canceled then what for dick.


Dick is no longer on the Titans book, so I'm perfectly okay with Kyle and Co biting the dust.  Maybe it's time for DC to do another company-wide reboot and see if they can do it any better this time.  Hopefully Nightwing DOESN'T get cancelled because I could see current company feeling leaving Dick in mothballs.  I feel better now that I know why the head shot happened and that they are trying to deal with it instead of just leaving Dick in a coma forever.  Could the plan be that all these Nightwing wannabees get themselves in trouble and Ric feels it's his duty to bail them out.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Dick is no longer on the Titans book, so I'm perfectly okay with Kyle and Co biting the dust.  Maybe it's time for DC to do another company-wide reboot and see if they can do it any better this time.  Hopefully Nightwing DOESN'T get cancelled because I could see current company feeling leaving Dick in mothballs.  I feel better now that I know why the head shot happened and that they are trying to deal with it instead of just leaving Dick in a coma forever.  Could the plan be that all these Nightwing wannabees get themselves in trouble and Ric feels it's his duty to bail them out.


A company wide reboot with people like DiDio, King, and Bendis in charge?

Ugh. Kiss Nightwing's generation goodbye, maybe Jason Todd's as well. Look to Tim being the "first" Robin and Damian shuffled off somewhere else. Which has kind of happened anyway.

----------


## Pohzee

Jason Todd's generation lol

----------


## Jackalope89

> Jason Todd's generation lol


Well, those in his age group at least. As "they make Batman look too old" as well.

----------


## Konja7

> A company wide reboot with people like DiDio, King, and Bendis in charge?
> 
> Ugh. Kiss Nightwing's generation goodbye, maybe Jason Todd's as well. Look to Tim being the "first" Robin and Damian shuffled off somewhere else. Which has kind of happened anyway.


Well, Doomsday Clock will likely causes another wide reboot. It's almost impossible to avoid that. 

Dick will survive any reboot (the other members in his generation are in danger). His brand name doesn't protect him from mistreatment, but protect him from disappear. 

Didio has said that he thinks Tim is boring. The main reason why Tim's returning so soon is because Bendis wants a Young Justice comic, but Bendis seems more interesting on the other characters in Young Justice.

----------


## OWL45

> A company wide reboot with people like DiDio, King, and Bendis in charge?
> 
> Ugh. Kiss Nightwing's generation goodbye, maybe Jason Todd's as well. Look to Tim being the "first" Robin and Damian shuffled off somewhere else. Which has kind of happened anyway.


They cant do it now. As much as people complained about Dicks portrayal before the live Titans series came out I think ultimately it will be his saving grace. The show is doing well and is good in my opinion. Im not saying he will be like Batman or Superman but his more relevant now then he has been in a few years outside of comic books themselves.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

A company-wide reboot? Oof. I hope they do it right this time if they really want to do it, and just start all over. And I mean from the beginning. Dick as the teen Robin, give us good Dynamic Duo stories again, give us Dick in high school, give us Dick palling around with Superman and the JL (Superfriends-style). They can slowly set up the universe and then go into the Teen Titans after two or so years. If DC’s going to keep licking the feet of the Silver Age up, they should do it right instead of giving us the bullshit we got with the New 52. They want a young Batman? Then let him be actually young and new, with none of the baggage. That’s the only way a reboot would work imo.

----------


## Konja7

A total reboot won't happen for Batman, since the other Robins are popular enough. So, DC wouldn't want to lost the profit that these characters generate. 

That said, I would like to see more stories set in the past of Dick as Robin (with pants).

----------


## Badou

Zero chance Doomsday Clock leads to another line wide reboot. I think they have mostly moved on from Doomsday Clock's original intention and are just letting Johns do what he wants as slowly as he wants. Maybe it will change a few things, but I doubt that it will cause these massive changes, especially to a character like Dick who is irrelevant in a story like Doomsday Clock. I mean we are still mostly in the New 52 continuity still despite Rebirth altering a few things.

----------


## Pohzee

> A total reboot won't happen for Batman, since the other Robins are popular enough. So, DC wouldn't want to lost the profit that these characters generate. 
> 
> That said, I would like to see more stories set in the past of Dick as Robin (with pants).


I can attest that the trunks are not as chilly as they seem.

----------


## oasis1313

> They can’t do it now. As much as people complained about Dick’s portrayal before the live Titans series came out I think ultimately it will be his saving grace. The show is doing well and is good in my opinion. I’m not saying he will be like Batman or Superman but his more relevant now then he has been in a few years outside of comic books themselves.


I'm pleasantly surprised at how well-done the Titans show is.  I don't know how it's doing from a financial standpoint, but I'm liking it a lot more than I anticipated.    Hope it's helpful to Dick--maybe the timing will be good.  The climactic scene in the 4th episode was excellent, and made Dick look good.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I can attest that the trunks are not as chilly as they seem.


Cosplay? Have you gone out at night with it? ^^

----------


## Pohzee

> Cosplay? Have you gone out at night with it? ^^


I went around a few frat parties on campus for Halloween when it was like 45 degrees out. But I'd hope it doesn't count as cosplay for Halloween

----------


## oasis1313

> I went around a few frat parties on campus for Halloween when it was like 45 degrees out. But I'd hope it doesn't count as cosplay for Halloween


Don't see any reason why a cosplay can't be a Halloween costume and you're rocking it.

----------


## Pohzee

> Don't see any reason why a cosplay can't be a Halloween costume and you're rocking it.


Ha thanks!

----------


## oasis1313

> A total reboot won't happen for Batman, since the other Robins are popular enough. So, DC wouldn't want to lost the profit that these characters generate. 
> 
> That said, I would like to see more stories set in the past of Dick as Robin (with pants).


It'd be kinda cool to have a "Batman and Family" book, for those of us who like a little lighter fare and have enough dysfunction in our own lives that we don't particularly enjoy being dipped in it in a comic book.

----------


## byrd156

> Jason Todd's generation lol


Jason never had a generation, and I hate it when they try and give him characters who pretty much never interacted with him.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Jason never had a generation, and I hate it when they try and give him characters who pretty much never interacted with him.ke


yup he was 4 years younger then dick at least when he dies more lkely 13-14 and hes another 3-5 years older then tim
he doesnt know anyone or belong with any group he never made frieds and when he came back spent 2-3 year on a razy rampage, him and asenal never made sense

----------


## Aahz

> yup he was 4 years younger then dick at least when he dies more lkely 13-14 and hes another 3-5 years older then tim
> he doesnt know anyone or belong with any group he never made frieds and when he came back spent 2-3 year on a razy rampage, him and asenal never made sense


He was actually more like 7 years younger than Dick and 1-2 year older than Tim and roughly the same age as Cassandra Cain. He would have been likely part of Tim's generation without DitF.

When it comes to friends he had Kid Devil and possibly Danny Chase.

When it comes to a reboot, I doubt that they will go back to Dick as Robin the main continuity, since having a Robin and a Nightwing is probably more lucrative than just having a Robin.

----------


## dietrich

> Jason never had a generation, and I hate it when they try and give him characters who pretty much never interacted with him.


It's doesn't always pan out when they try to force and I honestly don't know why writers do that. To be honest Jason does't need a generation. He can just build organic relationships with random characters like we got in Rebirth Outlaws

----------


## oasis1313

> A total reboot won't happen for Batman, since the other Robins are popular enough. So, DC wouldn't want to lost the profit that these characters generate. 
> 
> That said, I would like to see more stories set in the past of Dick as Robin (with pants).


It looks like DC is currently moving toward Tim as the starred Robin with the other shuffled out (gee, thanks, Bendis!).  To appease a big-shot writer and keep him working, I think DC would cater to any whim he had.  If Bendis wanted Dick, Jason, and Damian written out of the DC Universe (killed off or retconned that they "never existed"), the company would go along with that, figuring that the profit Bendis' name brings in outweighs some characters out of editorial favor and a few diehard fans.  That's my biggest fear right now.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It looks like DC is currently moving toward Tim as the starred Robin with the other shuffled out (gee, thanks, Bendis!).  To appease a big-shot writer and keep him working, I think DC would cater to any whim he had.  If Bendis wanted Dick, Jason, and Damian written out of the DC Universe (killed off or retconned that they "never existed"), the company would go along with that, figuring that the profit Bendis' name brings in outweighs some characters out of editorial favor and a few diehard fans.  That's my biggest fear right now.


Bendis- Other Robins? What are you talking about? Tim has ALWAYS been the ONLY Robin!
*proceeds to erase Dick, Jason, and Damian's time as Boy Wonder*

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> It looks like DC is currently moving toward Tim as the starred Robin with the other shuffled out (gee, thanks, Bendis!).  To appease a big-shot writer and keep him working, I think DC would cater to any whim he had.  If Bendis wanted Dick, Jason, and Damian written out of the DC Universe (killed off or retconned that they "never existed"), the company would go along with that, figuring that the profit Bendis' name brings in outweighs some characters out of editorial favor and a few diehard fans.  That's my biggest fear right now.


That Nightwing is still seen as a "a robin" when it comes to how DC pushes its younger characters is part of the problem.

DC should push Tim and/or Damian as the starred Robin since they're the most popular characters currently donning the Robin costume/identity.

----------


## Konja7

> It looks like DC is currently moving toward Tim as the starred Robin with the other shuffled out (gee, thanks, Bendis!).  To appease a big-shot writer and keep him working, I think DC would cater to any whim he had.  If Bendis wanted Dick, Jason, and Damian written out of the DC Universe (killed off or retconned that they "never existed"), the company would go along with that, figuring that the profit Bendis' name brings in outweighs some characters out of editorial favor and a few diehard fans.  That's my biggest fear right now.


That's exagerated. 

In the same way that Dick popularity and brand name protected him from death when Didio wanted to kill him on Infinite Crisis or the dissapearance of his generation in New 52, he would be protected in the future (this protection does not prevent Dick from being mistreated, but it prevents him from disappearing). Jason and Damian are also protected, because they're important part of Batman story and they're popular too. 

Also, we don't know how Bendis feel about Tim. He likes Young Justice group and he wants to appeal the nostalgia, so he needs Tim as Robin again. However, I don't think Bendis is so interested on Tim, he seems more interested on Bart or Conner.

----------


## dropkickjake

Tim as Robin "glory days" still included Dick as Nightwing. I'd be more curious about what is going to happen to damian.

----------


## oasis1313

> That Nightwing is still seen as a "a robin" when it comes to how DC pushes its younger characters is part of the problem.
> 
> DC should push Tim and/or Damian as the starred Robin since they're the most popular characters currently donning the Robin costume/identity.


I referred to Nightwing as a "Robin" in that post because you guys know what I'm talking about without me typing out a whole big explanation every time.  How can we quantify that Tim is the most popular ex/future Robin other than the fact that he's Bendis' favorite?  I would say that each historical Robin is the most popular one in the generation that grew up with them.  When old dinosaurs like me finally die out, Dick's devout fan base will die out with them.  Same with Jason.  Damian is already being pushed out of the household name brand/role that is his birthright.  Tim is definitely the most popular Robin with Bendis and Didio, and their two votes mean a lot more than many thousands of fans of the other characters.  So I guess popularity depends on who you ask.  I hope that Bendis is more interested in Connor and Bart because he is right--they never got the ridiculous panel time Tim does and they deserve the lion's share of the storylines.  I also hope that Bendis is less "permanent" than he says he is in terms of his attention span, or that he burns out and wrecks the book the way Claremont and Wolfman did theirs.  Just as I boycott any Dreck appearance, I will also boycott all things Bendis.

----------


## Ascended

> Jason never had a generation, and I hate it when they try and give him characters who pretty much never interacted with him.


How does everyone define "generation" here? 

I usually definite it by character age. Tim and Jaime Reyes are part of the same generation because they're close in age, even if Jaime debuted ten years (or something) after Tim, and Tim put the costume on at a younger age and has more experience. 

If I'm talking about a group of characters that debuted around the same year, I'll usually try to establish that by adding in "the 90's" or whatever. But I usually don't consider Conner Kent to be the same generation as that scruffy Fate or the Spawn rip-off Manhunter or Aztek.

So by my reckoning, Jason is sort of a cusp generation; stuck between Tim and Dick. So that'd put him what, closer to Beast Boy's age, who's supposed to be a solid few years younger than Nightwing (but should still be older than Tim by a few years even if DC seems to not be playing it like that)?

----------


## WonderNight

I hate generations.

----------


## Pohzee

I define generations by the relationships between characters. BB may have been closer to Jason's age Pre-Flashpoint, but he is by no means "Jason's Generation."

----------


## Konja7

I guess "generations" is for the groups of heroes that work together for a time. The Titans are Dick's generation regardless their age. 

Jason doesn't have any generation, since he almost only work with Batman during his time as Robin. 





> Tim is definitely the most popular Robin with Bendis and Didio, and their two votes mean a lot more than many thousands of fans of the other characters.  So I guess popularity depends on who you ask.


Didio has said he think Tim is boring. Tim has been almost a year on the limbo, it's only because Bendis has an idea for Young Justice that Tim is returning. So, I wouldn't say Didio really likes Tim.

----------


## oasis1313

> I guess "generations" is for the groups of heroes that work together for a time. The Titans are Dick's generation regardless their age. 
> Jason doesn't have any generation, since he almost only work with Batman during his time as Robin. 
> Didio has said he think Tim is boring. Tim has been almost a year on the limbo, it's only because Bendis has an idea for Young Justice that Tim is returning. So, I wouldn't say Didio really likes Tim.


Most Nightwing fans would be grateful if Dick ONLY got a year in Limbo.  He's in Limbo now--he's  wrinkly old bug-eyed Ric.  I talked to someone who was at that panel where Didio said Tim was boring--he was grinning like a loon the whole time:  He was just trolling the Timmy Lemmings, trying to push their buttons and get 'em to yell. Tim was merely placed in a glass case formed of Lalique crystal and carefully protected until his prophet Bendis descended from Heaven and revealed to all who The One True God is.

----------


## byrd156

> How does everyone define "generation" here? 
> 
> I usually definite it by character age. Tim and Jaime Reyes are part of the same generation because they're close in age, even if Jaime debuted ten years (or something) after Tim, and Tim put the costume on at a younger age and has more experience. 
> 
> If I'm talking about a group of characters that debuted around the same year, I'll usually try to establish that by adding in "the 90's" or whatever. But I usually don't consider Conner Kent to be the same generation as that scruffy Fate or the Spawn rip-off Manhunter or Aztek.
> 
> So by my reckoning, Jason is sort of a cusp generation; stuck between Tim and Dick. So that'd put him what, closer to Beast Boy's age, who's supposed to be a solid few years younger than Nightwing (but should still be older than Tim by a few years even if DC seems to not be playing it like that)?


I personally view it as a mix of things from heroes that grew up together, similar ages and having regular interactions with each other. People like Connor Hawke and Kyle I would consider to be 3rd Gen heroes even though they never grew up together but they did work together and have similar ages. Age is an important factor to someone like these guys but doesn't automatically make you one of them. Like Jason Rusch's Firestorm Pre-Flashpoint I would say felt more like Tim's age at the time but would consider him to also be a 3rd Gen hero since he interacted with them more. 

1st Gen - JSA, Ted Grant, Dr.Fate, etc. I would consider all those characters as a generation post-COIE

2nd Gen - Majority of superheroes in the DCU. Pretty much everyone from the Silver and Bronze Age who were adult heroes. Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc

3rd Gen - Fab Five, original sidekick generation and other independent young adult heroes. Red Star, Starfire, Cyborg, Lilith, Harlequin, etc.

4th Gen - The Young Justice generation. Tim, Conner, bart, etc.

From here it would go to Damian and his group of Titans that are his age. Jason barely interacted with anyone outside of the Bat-family, he had a few issues of NTT and retcons/inserts of him in stories he wasn't in originally like "For the Man Who Has Everything". Todd after coming back had the garbage series Countdown where he hung out with Kyle and Donna because the writers wanted a love triangle and that was pretty much it. He never really had anyone that I would consider a part of his generation.

----------


## Restingvoice

> How does everyone define "generation" here? 
> 
> I usually definite it by character age. Tim and Jaime Reyes are part of the same generation because they're close in age, even if Jaime debuted ten years (or something) after Tim, and Tim put the costume on at a younger age and has more experience. 
> 
> If I'm talking about a group of characters that debuted around the same year, I'll usually try to establish that by adding in "the 90's" or whatever. But I usually don't consider Conner Kent to be the same generation as that scruffy Fate or the Spawn rip-off Manhunter or Aztek.
> 
> So by my reckoning, Jason is sort of a cusp generation; stuck between Tim and Dick. So that'd put him what, closer to Beast Boy's age, who's supposed to be a solid few years younger than Nightwing (but should still be older than Tim by a few years even if DC seems to not be playing it like that)?


The teams mainly but sometimes the age

JSA (old)

JLA (Bruce, late 30s)

Birds of Prey (Babs, late 20s)

Titans (Dick, mid 20s)

Outlaws (Jason, early 20s)

Young Justice (Tim, late teens)

Teen Titans (Damian, teens)

Super Sons (Jon, tens)

Those are simplified. The line has been blurred with the inclusion of people from different ages in a different team. 

Teen Titans have included people from age 13 to 20 something, Kyle is going to Titans despite making his start in the League, Martian Manhunter suggested Batwoman and Booster among others for Titans under Dick's leadership, while Cyborg and Starfire moved to Justice League. Oh and there's the old Titans who had become Justice League before New 52 and Rebirth Birds of Prey who include Dinah from Bruce's generation and Babs from Dick's generation.

I noticed with all the switchings that the only distinction between Titans and Justice League are not age but origin. Titans started out as teens. They're all adults, and members can be switched should they want it. Exceptions would probably be the original 7 Leaguers who has a habit of remembering Titans as their sidekicks.

----------


## Aahz

> So by my reckoning, Jason is sort of a cusp generation; stuck between Tim and Dick. So that'd put him what, closer to Beast Boy's age, who's supposed to be a solid few years younger than Nightwing (but should still be older than Tim by a few years even if DC seems to not be playing it like that)?


He was actually a few years younger than Beast Boy. If you go by pre flashpoint, it was said that Jason is roughly the same age ass Cassandra Cain, which would put him closer to Tims generation, eben if he is more often teamed up with charcters of Dick Generation or maybe even older (hard to say were Artemis and Bizzaro belong).




> Kyle is going to Titans despite making his start in the League,


Kyle was actually a member of the Titans (and Donna's boyfriend) during the end of Wolfman's Titans run, before Kyle joined the JLA, and he is roughly the age of the Fab 5. 




> People like Connor Hawke and Kyle I would consider to be 3rd Gen heroes even though they never grew up together but they did work together and have similar ages.


Connor is more like Jason in between two generations, he is a few years younger than Dicks generation even if he got often teamed up with Wally and Kyle.

----------


## Ascended

> He was actually a few years younger than Beast Boy. If you go by pre flashpoint, it was said that Jason is roughly the same age ass Cassandra Cain, which would put him closer to Tims generation, eben if he is more often teamed up with charcters of Dick Generation or maybe even older (hard to say were Artemis and Bizzaro belong).


Was Jason younger than Gar? I can see that, by old post-Crisis standards before they started handling Gar like he was eternally 15. I figured they had to be close in age but I would've thought Jason might have been a little older. They tend to write Jason now as if he's about the same age as Dick, so it's easy for me to forget how things were in the before time.  :Smile:

----------


## Aahz

> Was Jason younger than Gar? I can see that, by old post-Crisis standards before they started handling Gar like he was eternally 15. I figured they had to be close in age but I would've thought Jason might have been a little older. They tend to write Jason now as if he's about the same age as Dick, so it's easy for me to forget how things were in the before time.


Gar was iirc roughly 15 when NTT started Jason was 12. 
If you look here at the immage from Terras funeral in Judas contract, you can see that Jason is almost a head shorter than Garfield (ok the is pre crisis, but post crisis Jason wasn't older).

----------


## dietrich

> ThatÂ’s sounds about right. The next evolution of Dick Grayson was always just a bunch of horse crap. There was no grand plan, that was clear from the get go. They wanted a sales stunt, but then put it in the hands of editors that just werenÂ’t equipped to run with anything. And so they came up with this mess. What a joke. What an absolute joke. Course nothing will change, of course thereÂ’s was no grand plan here, his readers just have to eat this something last minute direction by Scott Lobdell until the book gets cancelled. Which they of course will put on the readers.
> 
> Though Listening to the Podcast Kings idea would have been a kick in the nuts. Dick would be in bed having to relearn to read and stuff while Tim takes over as Nightwing. But ya, heÂ’s far from enthusiastic about this Ric crap.


I dread coming onto these thread's now. It just bad news and worse news. I can't believe that was his plan for Nightwing or for Tim?

That wasn't a good plan for either character.

I can't get over the lack of Fu*k's writers have for these characters. They aren't plot devices or space fillers to be brought in used in a temp position without any thought for the long term. They are valuable properties. I really don't understand how writers, editors or DC can be this careless.

Even if writers are not concerned editors and higher ups should be. Batman alone can not sustain DC and it's not like they have a host of characters burning up the sales charts. They only have a few and Nightwing is one of those.

DC is a business. Businesses are set up t make money. Businesses take care of the things that make them their money.

Isn't that how business works You look after the things that make you money, try to maximise their money making potential not just short term but ideally for the long term?

I don't understand. It makes little sense from my pov.


I'm so pissed off and disappointed with  DC and King. I guess Dick Grayson was simply King's come up. Suddenly I'm reminded of First Wives Club.

----------


## Konja7

> I dread coming onto these thread's now it just bad news and worse news. I can't believe that was he plan for Nightwing or for Tim.


I didn't hear the postcast, so it's the first time I read King plans that Dick needs to learn everything again, while Tim is the new Nightwing. 

That would be horrible. I suspect King would let the Nightwing comic develop this story. 





> I can't get over the lack of Fu*k's writers have for these characters. They aren't plot devices or space fillers to be brought in used in a temp position without any thought for the long term. They are valuable properties. I really don't understand how writers, editors or DC can be this careless.
> 
> Even if writers are not concerned editors and higher ups should be. Batman alone can not sustain DC and it's not like they have a host of characters burning up the sales charts. They only have a few and Nightwing is one of those.
> 
> DC is a business. Businesses are set up t make money. Businesses take care of the things that make them their money.
> 
> Isn't that how business works You look after the things that make you money, try to maximise their money making potential not just short term but ideally for the long term?
> 
> I don't understand. It makes little sense from my pov.


I guess the problem is that DC consider Nightwing a Batman lite character, so they don't have problem to sacrifice the character to affect Batman (although they won't kill Nightwing). 

Also, DC knows Nightwing has a loyal fanbase, they probably feel safe to mistreat the character, since the fans will stay.





> I'm so pissed off and disappointed with  DC and King. I guess Dick Grayson was simply King's come up. Suddenly I'm reminded of First Wives Club.


I don't understand the reference, what's the meaning?

----------


## TheCape

Man is usually depressing to come here, but damn, things had gotten worse, i really did miss a lot.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> I referred to Nightwing as a "Robin" in that post because you guys know what I'm talking about without me typing out a whole big explanation every time.  How can we quantify that Tim is the most popular ex/future Robin other than the fact that he's Bendis' favorite?  I would say that each historical Robin is the most popular one in the generation that grew up with them. * When old dinosaurs like me finally die out, Dick's devout fan base will die out with them.*  Same with Jason.  Damian is already being pushed out of the household name brand/role that is his birthright.  Tim is definitely the most popular Robin with Bendis and Didio, and their two votes mean a lot more than many thousands of fans of the other characters.  So I guess popularity depends on who you ask.  I hope that Bendis is more interested in Connor and Bart because he is right--they never got the ridiculous panel time Tim does and they deserve the lion's share of the storylines.  I also hope that Bendis is less "permanent" than he says he is in terms of his attention span, or that he burns out and wrecks the book the way Claremont and Wolfman did theirs.  Just as I boycott any Dreck appearance, I will also boycott all things Bendis.



Hard disagree with this. 

I'm in the Tim generation and him and Dick flip flop as my #1 and #2 favorite characters depending on how they are being written at the time. I think you underestimate the amount of fans Dick has as the guy who grew out of Robin. I don't love Dick for his past, I love him for his present, or at least what his present could be.

----------


## Pohzee

> Hard disagree with this. 
> 
> I'm in the Tim generation and him and Dick flip flop as my #1 and #2 favorite characters depending on how they are being written at the time. I think you underestimate the amount of fans Dick has as the guy who grew out of Robin. I don't love Dick for his past, I love him for his present, or at least what his present could be.


Yup, the first and last will always be fine. It is the middle ones who will suffer.

----------


## TheCape

> Yup, the first and last will always be fine. It is the middle ones who will suffer.


This 
10 char.

----------


## oasis1313

> Man is usually depressing to come here, but damn, things had gotten worse, i really did miss a lot.


Yeah, not exactly the Glee Club, are we?  But we've had nothing but bad news lately, and there doesn't look to be in any good news in the foreseeable future.  Where else do we have to go but here?  We can write letters of protest to DC until our faces turn blue, and they all just go into the "circular file".  Management/Editorial at DC doesn't cares about the character and it's clear they loathe his fans even more.  They're not interested in hearing our voices, would rather we'd all go choke on a bag of nails.  We're like the family of a kidnap victim whose kidnappers keep making crank calls, mailing them toes in cigar boxes, and constantly changing the sites to drop off the money.  Right now we're kind of a support group for people who've had poopy dumped on their heads (can't use the language I'm REALLY thinking of) and have to survive it.  I can't abandon Dick at an hour this dark; DC Management knows it and is laughing its collective wrinkled hairy butt off at me (and us).  I'm so glad to have you Nightwing Anonymous buds with me now, who understand and share the same feelings.  This is a safe place for Victims of Wingnut Abuse.

----------


## dietrich

> I didn't hear the postcast, so it's the first time I read King plans that Dick needs to learn everything again, while Tim is the new Nightwing. 
> 
> That would be horrible. I suspect King would let the Nightwing comic develop this story. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the problem is that DC consider Nightwing a Batman lite character, so they don't have problem to sacrifice the character to affect Batman (although they won't kill Nightwing). 
> 
> ...


First Wives Club is a movie about 3 first wives who were with their husbands wen the men were struggling to make it big but then they all got dumped and replaced by hotter wives once the husbands found success.

King was very invested and seemed to like dick when he had the Grayson deal which was how he got the batman deal [along with Synders help] but now he's a big shot on Batman he doesn't seem to be as invested or as respectful of the character.


I understand not wanting to do anything to cut into the Batman's market share but they don't have to sabotage the Nightwing character. It's not even like they did for some ground breaking original story that's sure to add value to the Batman. No it's a story line that's been done before and better. 

The shooting, braking the bat, bat going ape shit, Robins getting hurt, KGBeast getting left for dead? It's all been done.  This story didn't have to happen. 

I don't know how the comic business works but surly DC could be winning with Batman while keep Nightwing steady and consistent? 
I still maintain that Seeley's Idea of a globe trotting Nightwing was/is the best direction for Dick Grayson and it's different enough from Batman.

Sadly everyone of the Robins is always going to be a Batman lite. Even Red Hood is still Batman lite since DC won't let him go full Punisher. Agent 37 was a good direction away from Batman lite but that got scrapped.

Dick's dependability is at times a curse because the company takes him for granted however thanks to it Dick is safer than all of his generation, the Robins and a ton of other comic characters. As bad as things are creatively for the character I know he is here to stay. I just wish I had a decent book with him right now is all.

----------


## dietrich

@Oasis1313 I have to agree with the others Tim and Damian is my generation's Robin but Dick Grayson is Robin. You can't over write or erase that. Young kids watching on CN right now are falling in love and growing up with Dick Grayson Robin.

And it's not just Robin. Nightwing, DickBats, Agent 37, Renegade Dick Grayson is a difficult character to bury.

----------


## Konja7

I suspect Robin is the only identity for Dick that DC really care. 

Honestly, if it wasn't for the popularity of the other Robins (and that this can affect Batman story), I wouldn't be surprised if the New 52 return Dick to Robin. 

I mean DC clearly doesn't care about Dick identity and story as Nightwing. After all, DC destroyed his story in NTT.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

> I was listening to Tom King on the Gotham by Geeks podcast and he made his dislike of the current Nightwing storyline apparent. He also clarified what happened regarding Batman #55.
> 
> Shooting Dick was his idea. He wanted it to be a part of the Bane story. He says that he doesn't like derailing other writers so he told DC "I'm shooting Nightwing in the head, I can fix this next issue with a Zatanna spell or you can run with it. Your choice." And they decided to run with it. So that's the whole story I guess. No grand plans to bring him back into the spotlight. No plan to ruin him. Just DC deciding to pick up on a potential tie-in for some sales.


wow....I think I missed this earlier. I'm not sure why I'm surprised but I am. 


Anyways, next episode of Titans is going to be hella hype. It's setting Dick up as the leader of the Titans as they're first coming together to fight the Nuclear Family. The promo photos they released show Dick [spoiler]meeting Jason, so we'll finally get that. Glad casual fans are finally going to get a look at what Jason is supposed to be as Robin, maybe now they'll stop thinking Titans' Dick is "like Jason" because he curses and fights well lmao. Another thing, we see Dick confronting the old dude who "activated" the Nuclear Family and it looks like Dick kicks some ass there, too. And last thing, we get our first sex scene between Dick and Kory so that's exciting in its own way lol.[/spoiler]

----------


## Restingvoice

> I understand not wanting to do anything to cut into the Batman's market share but they don't have to sabotage the Nightwing character. It's not even like they did for some ground breaking original story that's sure to add value to the Batman. No it's a story line that's been done before and better. 
> The shooting, braking the bat, bat going ape shit, Robins getting hurt, KGBeast getting left for dead? It's all been done.  This story didn't have to happen. 
> I don't know how the comic business works but surly DC could be winning with Batman while keep Nightwing steady and consistent?


When New 52 began they created a pretty clear hierarchy
Justice League being the beginning arc sits at the top
After that the lines are divided between Superman family, Batman family, Green Lantern family, Justice League family, Young Justice line, Dark line and Edge line. 
Each family has their heads that direct where the family story goes. Superman is Superman, Batman is Batman, and so on. 
The story starts in Batman and then it bleeds to Nightwing, Batgirl, and so on. These family titles are considered equal to each other but under Batman. 

So at the top Justice League and its equivalent direct where the story goes, like how Forever Evil and Darkseid War worked. 

Then, the family heads. The story started with the head of the family, then spread to the family members book. Whether it's The Court of Owls, Bruce Wayne suffered amnesia, or Bane targetting the family, the family books adjusted the story to accomodate what happened to the family heads. 

The line has disappeared now but the attitude remains the same, and you can see that the Batman symbol is still being used under the Nightwing title instead of his own symblol. Also from what I heard it's been going on since Infinite Crisis, where the event destroyed Bludhaven, and then Final Crisis that killed Batman that forced Nightwing to leave New York and cancelling his book to be Batman. 

Management wise, it makes sense to do a top-down and radial spread out storytelling if they have one large story. The problem is they consider every character at the lower tier to be supporting cast to the upper tier, despite being main characters themselves. 

Beyond New 52 setup, or if you pay attention to how the title symbol is used, they never made this clear to readers, making them think they're buying a book of equal measure when they're only buying a supporting character to a family head, and supporting character to larger story, that DC let run around free for a time until the next large plot point happen and they have to follow it.

----------


## Restingvoice

This Batman Who Laughs variant kinda sums up the joy and sadness of things

aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXdzYXJhbWEuY29tL2ltYWdlcy9pLzAwMC8yNDEvMjAyL29yaWdpbmFsL0JhdG1hbldob0xhdWdoc18x.jpg

"Joy" as in that Nightwing is the only Bat Family member selected to be featured as the victim for this high profile villain variant meaning his status as family member of importance is still the highest.

----------


## WonderNight

> When New 52 began they created a pretty clear hierarchy
> Justice League being the beginning arc sits at the top
> After that the lines are divided between Superman family, Batman family, Green Lantern family, Justice League family, Young Justice line, Dark line and Edge line. 
> Each family has their heads that direct where the family story goes. Superman is Superman, Batman is Batman, and so on. 
> The story starts in Batman and then it bleeds to Nightwing, Batgirl, and so on. These family titles are considered equal to each other but under Batman. 
> 
> So at the top Justice League and its equivalent direct where the story goes, like how Forever Evil and Darkseid War worked. 
> 
> Then, the family heads. The story started with the head of the family, then spread to the family members book. Whether it's The Court of Owls, Bruce Wayne suffered amnesia, or Bane targetting the family, the family books adjusted the story to accomodate what happened to the family heads. 
> ...


exactly. Which is why I refer to nightwing as sidekick.

Someone said DC only cares about dick when he's Robin. This is wrong, DC doesn't like dick as nightwing because nightwing is a ADULT SIDEKICK!  DC doesn't mind sidekicks  when they're kids or teens but not adults.

As long dick as nightwing is a adult sidekick he will never be his own man, DC will never care for him and he will never get the respect the push ir investment he deserves.

It's time for nightwing to stop sitting at the kids table and sit with the other adults like cyborg and starfire are doing now. That doesn't mean he has to join the league (even though he should) but nightwing needs to leave the bat office again like in his NTT days and start be his own head.

If nightwing can't stand on his own and be his own head then move him to the superfamily for a few years. More nightwing and superman, supergirl and Jon. He'll send him to the wonderfamily, A nightwing and Donna book. More wonder woman, donna troy and a.r.g.u.s. why not what does dick have to loser?

But nightwing has maxed out as he is. As a sidekick to batman. He can't go up through the bat ceiling so let him go around it.

P.s get batman logo of his book.

----------


## Konja7

Keep in mind that Dick in NTT was allowed to leave Batman office, because the extremely popularity of NTT 

This make that DC allowed Dick to let the Robin mantle. Also, DC wants to recover the identity of Robin exclusively for Batman office. 

So, it would be difficult DC allow Dick let the Batman office. 


That said, if Dick let the Batman officee, he will probably be put on Titans. The Superfamily or Wonderfamily don't have a place for him (it's even difficult that the Wonderfamily has a place for Donna Troy).

----------


## Shockingjustice

> Keep in mind that Dick in NTT was allowed to leave Batman office, because the extremely popularity of NTT 
> 
> This make that DC allowed Dick to let the Robin mantle. Also, DC wants to recover the identity of Robin exclusively for Batman office. 
> 
> So, it would be difficult DC allow Dick let the Batman office. 
> 
> 
> That said, if Dick let the Batman officee, he will probably be put on Titans. The Superfamily or Wonderfamily don't have a placee for him (it's even difficult that the Wonderfamily has a place for Donna Troy).


That would be pretty funny if Dick just up and joined the Wonderfamily. It would be interesting if he gained the graces of the Amazonians and they train him.

----------


## bearman

I would love to see Grayson in Metropolis, getting involved with the Kent family, the wired super science, and Lex.

----------


## Ascended

> I would love to see Grayson in Metropolis, getting involved with the Kent family, the wired super science, and Lex.


You're singing my son man! I really want to see Nightwing visit "Uncle Clark" and his family for an extended stay. Dick can hang out and protect Suicide Slum when he's not getting to know Jon and patrolling with Clark.

Oh, and dating Power Girl. Need to see that too.  :Smile:

----------


## WonderNight

> Keep in mind that Dick in NTT was allowed to leave Batman office, because the extremely popularity of NTT 
> 
> This make that DC allowed Dick to let the Robin mantle. Also, DC wants to recover the identity of Robin exclusively for Batman office. 
> 
> So, it would be difficult DC allow Dick let the Batman office. 
> 
> 
> That said, if Dick let the Batman officee, he will probably be put on Titans. The Superfamily or Wonderfamily don't have a place for him (it's even difficult that the Wonderfamily has a place for Donna Troy).


But things are different now. The batfamily is bloated and overcrowded at the same time they don't know what to do with nightwing and needs his own space. The titans are on the way out. Once young justice and outsiders and legion and jsa hit by summer the titans are out the door.

And nightwing will be back to being isolated in mediocre bludhevan batman lite story's waiting for his next shake up for batman.

----------


## oasis1313

> That would be pretty funny if Dick just up and joined the Wonderfamily. It would be interesting if he gained the graces of the Amazonians and they train him.


Dick doesn't need any more training.  He should be mentoring others by now.

----------


## Godlike13

I don’t know, I wouldn’t appose seeing him get amazon training. Expanding ones repertoire never hurts.

----------


## byrd156

> I don’t know, I wouldn’t appose seeing him get amazon training. Expanding ones repertoire never hurts.


Hell a better idea they could have done from Dick getting shot is traveling the world to regain and upgrade his skills. Would've made for a more interesting story.

----------


## Aahz

> The titans are on the way out. Once young justice and outsiders and legion and jsa hit by summer the titans are out the door.


Titans is imo a much bigger franchise than outsiders and legion, and with the Titans Live Action series just out, I don't think they will cancel it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans is imo a much bigger franchise than outsiders and legion, and with the Titans Live Action series just out, I don't think they will cancel it.


The Titans book currently bears no resemblance to the show.  Clearly, DC isn't looking for tie-ins.  I would agree with WonderNight that the upcoming Bendis Young Justice will plow under the Titans book.  My comics shop has promised me that no Young Justice promo posters will be put on their walls; I told them it's okay to put them up in the gaming room where I don't go.  Not sure if DC Streaming reaches much of an audience, though.

----------


## Fergus

> exactly. Which is why I refer to nightwing as sidekick.
> 
> Someone said DC only cares about dick when he's Robin. This is wrong, DC doesn't like dick as nightwing because nightwing is a ADULT SIDEKICK!  DC doesn't mind sidekicks  when they're kids or teens but not adults.
> 
> As long dick as nightwing is a adult sidekick he will never be his own man, DC will never care for him and he will never get the respect the push ir investment he deserves.
> 
> It's time for nightwing to stop sitting at the kids table and sit with the other adults like cyborg and starfire are doing now. That doesn't mean he has to join the league (even though he should) but nightwing needs to leave the bat office again like in his NTT days and start be his own head.
> 
> If nightwing can't stand on his own and be his own head then move him to the superfamily for a few years. More nightwing and superman, supergirl and Jon. He'll send him to the wonderfamily, A nightwing and Donna book. More wonder woman, donna troy and a.r.g.u.s. why not what does dick have to loser?
> ...


While I like the idea of Nightwing with Supers or the Wonders I'd rather Nightwing  not join another family. Interact with yeah but don't move him to another family. I like Nightwing travelling the DCU and teaming up with various characters. I like him with Spyral. Give him the Skulls as sidekicks make him a spy type in spandex.

I agree that Nightwing needs to stop being an adult sidekick but can DC let him? Can the bat writers let him? More importantly can fans let him?

I don't think fans are willing to separate Dick Grayson from Batman. 
I don't want a Nightwing and title because we are still trying to free him from the bat. Don't need him attached to another character on a regular bases unless that character is a sidekick of his own.

----------


## Aahz

> I would agree with WonderNight that the upcoming Bendis Young Justice will plow under the Titans book.


Young Justice seems to me more similar to Teen Titans than to Titans.

----------


## WonderNight

> While I like the idea of Nightwing with Supers or the Wonders I'd rather Nightwing  not join another family. Interact with yeah but don't move him to another family. I like Nightwing travelling the DCU and teaming up with various characters. I like him with Spyral. Give him the Skulls as sidekicks make him a spy type in spandex.
> 
> I agree that Nightwing needs to stop being an adult sidekick but can DC let him? Can the bat writers let him? More importantly can fans let him?
> 
> I don't think fans are willing to separate Dick Grayson from Batman. 
> I don't want a Nightwing and title because we are still trying to free him from the bat. Don't need him attached to another character on a regular bases unless that character is a sidekick of his own.


yes those are the thing I what for nightwing also and yes the will be nightwing's biggest problem be he'd be a different nightwing (same dick grayson).

Be what other choice does he have? Remain as is? DC's number one adult sidekick, he can't stop sitting at the kids table under batman.

It's not like having him outside the bat office isolates him from the batfamily, just it just connects him more to the greater DC and gets him from all up under daddy. Just look at Jason todd.

Jason was able to have starfire fit in his book. But dick can't because she whould not fit batman's. Sad

----------


## nhienphan2808

Dc just doesn't care about Dick, full stop and they don't even want to care. Jason was able to fit aliens into his book because they are assured he won't step on Batman's toes, while Dick does, whatever he did, whoever he's partnered with.  Every "well because that girl is an alien/meta/a dog he cant be with her" argument is numb and dumb in a creative and every whatever standpoint. They just dont want to.

----------


## Konja7

> yes those are the thing I what for nightwing also and yes the will be nightwing's biggest problem be he'd be a different nightwing (same dick grayson).
> 
> Be what other choice does he have? Remain as is? DC's number one adult sidekick, he can't stop sitting at the kids table under batman.
> 
> It's not like having him outside the bat office isolates him from the batfamily, just it just connects him more to the greater DC and gets him from all up under daddy. Just look at Jason todd.
> 
> Jason was able to have starfire fit in his book. But dick can't because she whould not fit batman's. Sad


To be fair, Red Hood and the Outlaws is still a comic on Batman office. Jason is still considered a member of Batman family by DC (in-universe is more complicated).

They can put a team (even with superpowers) for Nightwing. They can put a comic like "Nightwing and others", which makes leadership skills of Dick shine. 


However, if you want Nightwing to let Batman shadow, that would be difficult.

If there's an important role to fill, DC will choose Batman instead Nightwing. The problem is that Batman can do almost everything (For example: Batman is enough sociable to mantain interactions with many superheroes)

The only things Batman can't do are things Dick can't do either (like being really goofy, really dumb, really young, between others few).

----------


## Fergus

> yes those are the thing I what for nightwing also and yes the will be nightwing's biggest problem be he'd be a different nightwing (same dick grayson).
> 
> Be what other choice does he have? Remain as is? DC's number one adult sidekick, he can't stop sitting at the kids table under batman.
> 
> It's not like having him outside the bat office isolates him from the batfamily, just it just connects him more to the greater DC and gets him from all up under daddy. Just look at Jason todd.
> 
> Jason was able to have starfire fit in his book. But dick can't because she whould not fit batman's. Sad


Dick has had Sarfire in his book along with most main players in the DCU. I'm sure under the bat office doesn't stop other characters from being in his book it's just decides who handles the character. And since Batboks are generally popular with readers I think regardless of the office writers can get use of characters if they ask.

The problem that some fans feel DC is making bad choices with the character. Will that change with a different editorial office? Maybe but it won't solve the problem. The problem is  Nightwing. Spandex hero who is the protector of Bludhaven and Batman's biggest ally and  2nd in command of the Bat family.

That is who he is and that is interesting. That was interesting when Seeley was writing and Percy seemed to be heading in an interesting direction before he got derailed. But it keeps him in Batman's shadow. I don't think it can be escaped. He's not a sidekick but he still has responsibilities to Batman and the family.


Nightwing has been good most of Rebirth now that I think about it. I feel that as comic fans we might be quick to scream the sky is falling.

Honestly now that I think about it most characters have some kind of derailment or fall in quality.

Dick Grayson has moved out from under Batman but he can never cut that cord. None of them can. Red Hood is under a different office but he is still tied to the Batman. So much of his story revolves around Batman. Damian isn't under the Bat office but he is still tied to the batman. I don't think a different editorial office will do the trick.

----------


## Aahz

> Jason was able to have starfire fit in his book. But dick can't because she whould not fit batman's. Sad


That has imo more to do with the direction of the book and the setting, than with Batman.

With current direction of RHatO it is for example also not very likely, that someone like Starfire will pop up.

----------


## Konja7

I was pretty sure Red Hood was under Batman office. 

I remember Red Hood and the Outlaws was part of Batman line on New 52. I don't remember that has changed.

----------


## Dzetoun

> First Wives Club is a movie about 3 first wives who were with their husbands wen the men were struggling to make it big but then they all got dumped and replaced by hotter wives once the husbands found success.
> 
> King was very invested and seemed to like dick when he had the Grayson deal which was how he got the batman deal [along with Synders help] but now he's a big shot on Batman he doesn't seem to be as invested or as respectful of the character.
> 
> 
> I understand not wanting to do anything to cut into the Batman's market share but they don't have to sabotage the Nightwing character. It's not even like they did for some ground breaking original story that's sure to add value to the Batman. No it's a story line that's been done before and better. 
> 
> The shooting, braking the bat, bat going ape shit, Robins getting hurt, KGBeast getting left for dead? It's all been done.  This story didn't have to happen. 
> 
> ...


I think King’s actual natural inclination is toward the kind of thing we saw in his _Nightwing_  debut (remember the fight in the Batcave?) and that some of the awkwardness people find in his writing and dialogue comes from having to constantly suppress these tendencies in favor of more traditional DC representations. 

FWIW, I think Seeley is more genuine in his regard for the character, and had it not been for Seeley’s influence _Grayson_ would have been pretty awful. I think Higgins is also pretty genuine. One thing I actually respect about Lobdell is that he doesn’t try to project emotions he doesn’t really feel. He’s there to do a job, and he is going to do it and go home. There’s honesty in that, even if you don’t like his story (which I don’t).

Realistically, I think the best thing for Nightwing at the moment would be to find a young writer with a genuine enthusiasm for the character, pair him with a good artist, and give him the same deal Lobdell seems to have with Jason Todd, a kind of “we don’t care much what you do just build a fan base and don’t cause trouble” understanding. Unfortunately, it is hard to do that in the Bat Office, due to the gravitational pull of Batman.

----------


## yohyoi

How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?

----------


## yohyoi

Personally, I think we need to organize ourselves and make our voice heard to the upper management of DC, since only they can stop DiDio.

----------


## yohyoi

I don't get people saying it will be cancelled when it is above 50% of what DC is selling right now. They would cancel most of their books if we use sales as a criteria. DiDio can keep it going too. We need to let our voice be heard everyday and everywhere since it is the only way we can stop Ric.

----------


## Ascended

> How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?


The best thing you can do is stop buying the book. DC treats Nightwing like this because they know his fanbase will buy the book no matter what. So stop buying it! Stop accepting the pile of crap they're offering us. The only real language DC understands is money; they don't care how much you complain on a message board, if you buy the product you're telling them that they are doing a good job. 

Don't worry about a sales drop leading to Nightwing being put into limbo. Everyone worries about their favorite character disappearing if sales are low, but Dick's got too much history and importance to be swept under the rug. If it were possible to get rid of him, Didio would've done it already. 

Secondly, use social media. Send messages to whoever the Bat editor is, to Didio, to Lee, to Johns, everyone who has a twitter account and interacts with fans. Send messages to creators who aren't even currently working with any Gotham characters. Tell them all that we want Nightwing treated with the respect he deserves, both in-universe and in the real world. The more noise DC hears from Nightwing's fans, the better. Get your family and friends to do the same. Even if they aren't comic fans, get them to send a message or two Didio's way.  

Thirdly, if you have the chance to talk to any of the pro's (at a con or whatever), talk about Nightwing, about the potential being squandered. Don't pitch your own ideas about how to make Nightwing better (unless asked anyway) but make it clear that Nightwing can be, is, and should be, more than what DC is letting him be. Pro's are going to remember a conversation they had face-to-face and that'll carry more impact than internet messages and help drive home how passionate the fans are. DC already knows that Nightwing has a deeply loyal fanbase, but they need to know that the fanbase has potential to really grow and is already bigger than they realize; a lot of us just won't buy the book when it's half-assed.

Finally, make sure you financially support Nightwing in ways other than buying a crappy comic book. Buy merchandise, that's huge. Merchandise sales is why Harley Quinn became such a big name and DC pays attention to how many toys and t-shirts get sold. Buy the New Order miniseries, download Nightwing specific content (if there is any?) for the various Batman video games out there. And send messages to the developers about how you want more Nightwing. If Netherrealm calls DC and says they keep getting asked about Nightwing content for Injustice 3, Didio is going to take note of that. If Weisman calls DC and says a lot of Young Justice fans are demanding more Nightwing and are only buying the DCU app for his role on the cartoon, Didio is going to take note of that too.

The real problem here is that Dick does sell pretty well, no matter how bad the book is. He turns a solid profit even when DC puts in zero effort with him. So we don't have to convince DC that Nightwing is profitable; they know that. What we have to do is convince them that Nightwing could take that big step up and become a solid, reliable A-list property (just like Harley has become) if they put in just a little tiny bit more effort.....and then, when DC does put in a little more effort.....we have to be there to support it.

----------


## dietrich

> How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?


Normally they say not to buy what you don't like but i can't support not buying the title even with the story going on because that works against Dick Grayson.

we could do a petition against this change [when DC was doing the Deathstroke v Batman there was a petition on a Bruce Wayne is the father twitter that had an overwhelming amount of support. That seems like the simplest and easiest way of letting the higher ups know how many people are against this direction.
Personally I don't think it will last. Dick Grayson the actual name is important and valuable to DC. Dick Grayson is a widely recognised part of pop culture. Ric Grayson isn't. DC can kill Nightwing but Dick Grayson can't be erased because that is the name of Robin. The name of the 1st sidekick that ever mattered.

The name matters. Ric isn't going to last.

----------


## oasis1313

> Normally they say not to buy what you don't like but i can't support not buying the title even with the story going on because that works against Dick Grayson.
> 
> we could do a petition against this change [when DC was doing the Deathstroke v Batman there was a petition on a Bruce Wayne is the father twitter that had an overwhelming amount of support. That seems like the simplest and easiest way of letting the higher ups know how many people are against this direction.
> Personally I don't think it will last. Dick Grayson the actual name is important and valuable to DC. Dick Grayson is a widely recognised part of pop culture. Ric Grayson isn't. DC can kill Nightwing but Dick Grayson can't be erased because that is the name of Robin. The name of the 1st sidekick that ever mattered.
> 
> The name matters. Ric isn't going to last.


How do we start a petition?

----------


## Arsenal

> How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?


It's been what... three issues so far? Maybe four? You won't have to wait it out for years because it won't even last a year. No need to be so over dramatic.

----------


## dropkickjake

> You're singing my son man! I really want to see Nightwing visit "Uncle Clark" and his family for an extended stay. Dick can hang out and protect Suicide Slum when he's not getting to know Jon and patrolling with Clark.
> 
> Oh, and dating Power Girl. Need to see that too.


YES. I don't know if this would work as a long term direction, but I want a full story arc or two or three of this.

----------


## Badou

> I was pretty sure Red Hood was under Batman office. 
> 
> I remember Red Hood and the Outlaws was part of Batman line on New 52. I don't remember that has changed.


I think now it is under the Batman editors, but before Rebirth I think Lobdell had his own group of editors where Outlaws fell more under the Superman editorial group or something weird like that. Lobdell can kind of do what he wants usually. 




> How do we make DC hear how much we hate Ric? I'm starting to feel Ric will stay for 2-5 years at this rate. Can we maintain ourselves and wait it out for years?


Nightwing's book will get relaunched in 2019 sometime. With a new creative team and a new direction. I imagine that DC will relaunch most of their books in 2019.

----------


## Claude

> I think King’s actual natural inclination is toward the kind of thing we saw in his _Nightwing_  debut (remember the fight in the Batcave?) and that some of the awkwardness people find in his writing and dialogue comes from having to constantly suppress these tendencies in favor of more traditional DC representations. 
> 
> FWIW, I think Seeley is more genuine in his regard for the character, and had it not been for Seeley’s influence _Grayson_ would have been pretty awful. I think Higgins is also pretty genuine. One thing I actually respect about Lobdell is that he doesn’t try to project emotions he doesn’t really feel. He’s there to do a job, and he is going to do it and go home. There’s honesty in that, even if you don’t like his story (which I don’t).


I think there's a lot to that - after all, it's worth remembering the story King tells about a meeting at Marvel where he decided to pretend that the Winter Soldier was his favourite character in all comics, because he thought they were going to ask him to pitch for it.

But I think it might be a bit sadder than that. When Rebirth was in the early stages, and we started to get word that Seeley and King weren't getting to finish "Grayson", neither seemed especially happy about that fact. Seeley said that, if it were up to him, it would have carried on being him and King and Janin working on the book together - even though he almost certainly got a pay bump for writing the "Nightwing" title solo. But the difference, I think, is that Seeley went on to hype the Lanzing and Kelley issues - whereas King has more recently said that he hasn't even read them, as he was too attached to what they were doing he didn't feel that he could.

I don't think King was faking a love of Dick Grayson - not because he wouldn't, but because he's not successfully communicated the same kind of love to characters like Vision, Kyle Rayner or even Bruce. But he's moved from working with Seeley on additional Dick Grayson pitches to run alongside their series, to no longer even declaring "Grayson" on his twitter bio.

It's fully possibly this is the transition of King from "up-and-comer" to "comics superstar" - but I also think he was very likely soured on the "Grayson" project and character by having their plans cut short and messed with. 

(Having to carry the can for how "Robin War" turned out can't have been fun! That whole thing _so nearly_ worked, but....)




> Realistically, I think the best thing for Nightwing at the moment would be to find a young writer with a genuine enthusiasm for the character, pair him with a good artist, and give him the same deal Lobdell seems to have with Jason Todd, a kind of “we don’t care much what you do just build a fan base and don’t cause trouble” understanding. Unfortunately, it is hard to do that in the Bat Office, due to the gravitational pull of Batman.


A risky proposition - that's what Tim Drake got in Tynion, and the combination of "relatively inexperienced writer" and "overwhelming fanlove" didn't leave an appealing result!

----------


## Konja7

> I think there's a lot to that - after all, it's worth remembering the story King tells about a meeting at Marvel where he decided to pretend that the Winter Soldier was his favourite character in all comics, because he thought they were going to ask him to pitch for it.
> 
> But I think it might be a bit sadder than that. When Rebirth was in the early stages, and we started to get word that Seeley and King weren't getting to finish "Grayson", neither seemed especially happy about that fact. Seeley said that, if it were up to him, it would have carried on being him and King and Janin working on the book together - even though he almost certainly got a pay bump for writing the "Nightwing" title solo. But the difference, I think, is that Seeley went on to hype the Lanzing and Kelley issues - whereas King has more recently said that he hasn't even read them, as he was too attached to what they were doing he didn't feel that he could.
> 
> I don't think King was faking a love of Dick Grayson - not because he wouldn't, but because he's not successfully communicated the same kind of love to characters like Vision, Kyle Rayner or even Bruce. But he's moved from working with Seeley on additional Dick Grayson pitches to run alongside their series, to no longer even declaring "Grayson" on his twitter bio.
> 
> It's fully possibly this is the transition of King from "up-and-comer" to "comics superstar" - but I also think he was very likely soured on the "Grayson" project and character by having their plans cut short and messed with. 
> 
> (Having to carry the can for how "Robin War" turned out can't have been fun! That whole thing _so nearly_ worked, but....)


Well, in this forum, I read that Seeley and King working together on Grayson wasn't the best situation for both parts (since they've never worked together before), so I don't think King was pretty angry to let Grayson for Batman. 

Also, King taking the offer to work on Batman was surely his decision.

----------


## joybeans

Hey, let's cool it with the hyperbolic conspiracy theories about writers, okay?

----------


## Pohzee

To say that King is not a fan of Dick to some degree is ridiculous. He has said on multiple occasions that Dick is his favorite Robin, and that while he is no longer his favorite character, he does love the character. 

In prep for Grayson, he read large chunks of Dick’s appearances in each decade from his first appearance to present. Go back and look at his Twitter feed from that time and you will see his semi frequent postings of why Dick Grayson is awesome from things like Golden Age Batman to the New Teen Titans. I’m certain that he’s read more of the character than many people in this thread.

It does make his treatment of Dick in Batman rather baffling, but give that he seems to have similar plans for Alfred and perhaps Gordon down the road it is perhaps itself a Tom King form of love.

----------


## Restingvoice

Simple. He has a plot and he wants to stick to it and focus on it. Since DC is the boss, he asked them which path they want to take if he wants to go with his plot and since there are other people writing Nightwing they will take care of Nightwing part of the story. 

Same as Geoff Johns, Snyder and anyone else who's used Dick as a supporting cast in their events. They do their part, Nightwing writer does their part. So I never read it as the writers hating character, just simple division of labor so they can focus on their own main character. 

The main problem is DC being DC wanting to rope as many titles as possible for an event meaning they're always gonna demand Nightwing writer to follow because of the hierarchy I mentioned in previous posts.

Why they always pick Dick is obvious. He's the closest superhero to Bruce who's far more vulnerable than Superman but unlike regular damsel in distress he's also active on the field, making him even more vulnerable to villain's crosshair. It make sense for the plot and the character.

----------


## Konja7

> Simple. He has a plot and he wants to stick to it and focus on it. Since DC is the boss, he asked them which path they want to take if he wants to go with his plot and since there are other people writing Nightwing they will take care of Nightwing part of the story. 
> 
> Same as Geoff Johns, Snyder and anyone else who's used Dick as a supporting cast in their events. They do their part, Nightwing writer does their part. So I never read it as the writers hating character, just simple division of labor so they can focus on their own main character. 
> 
> The main problem is DC being DC wanting to rope as many titles as possible for an event meaning they're always gonna demand Nightwing writer to follow because of the hierarchy I mentioned in previous posts.
> 
> Why they always pick Dick is obvious. He's the closest superhero to Bruce who's far more vulnerable than Superman but unlike regular damsel in distress he's also active on the field, making him even more vulnerable to villain's crosshair. It make sense for the plot and the character.


As you said, it isn't really hate from King. 

That said, it's still annoying that writers use Nightwing as "sacrifce" to develop Batman, but they don't consider what would happen with Dick after that. At least, they should think how this will affect the character. 

Although I read that the idea of King is that Dick will need to learn everything again, while Tim would be Nightwing. That wouldn't be a good idea.

----------


## oasis1313

> To say that King is not a fan of Dick to some degree is ridiculous. He has said on multiple occasions that Dick is his favorite Robin, and that while he is no longer his favorite character, he does love the character. 
> 
> In prep for Grayson, he read large chunks of Dick’s appearances in each decade from his first appearance to present. Go back and look at his Twitter feed from that time and you will see his semi frequent postings of why Dick Grayson is awesome from things like Golden Age Batman to the New Teen Titans. I’m certain that he’s read more of the character than many people in this thread.
> 
> It does make his treatment of Dick in Batman rather baffling, but give that he seems to have similar plans for Alfred and perhaps Gordon down the road it is perhaps itself a Tom King form of love.


Killing Alfred and Gordon?  I don't mind killing off Gordon (Harvey Bullock for Police Commissioner!!), but Alfred should be SACRED.  Alfred has been killed off before and it was ugly.  I think Bane should kill Tim Dreck next.  Really GOOD, THOROUGH killing, with disembowelment, hung, drawn and quartered then beheaded, dismembering the carcass until it looks like bacon, then pouring undiluted sulfuric acid over whatever's left.  If Bane needs any help, I'm eager and willing to volunteer, and I'd dedicate it all to Brian Michael Bendis and Jimmy Tynion because they love Timmy Wimmy sooooooooo much.

----------


## Restingvoice

> As you said, it isn't really hate from King. 
> 
> That said, it's still annoying that writers use Nightwing as "sacrifce" to develop Batman, but they don't consider what would happen with Dick after that. At least, they should think how this will affect the character. 
> 
> Although I read that the idea of King is that Dick will need to learn everything again, while Tim would be Nightwing. That wouldn't be a good idea.


Oh yeah, of course, it's annoying. I've been annoyed since day one, calmed down and get triggered again when I see that butt-ugly Ric.

I don't know... I kinda want to see Nightwing Tim. Since classic Tim is a fan of Dick, I won't mind him filling in for a year. 

IF it's the classic Tim.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh yeah, of course, it's annoying. I've been annoyed since day one, calmed down and get triggered again when I see that butt-ugly Ric.
> 
> I don't know... I kinda want to see Nightwing Tim. Since classic Tim is a fan of Dick, I won't mind him filling in for a year. 
> 
> IF it's the classic Tim.


Ugh.  Classic Tim has gone the way of Classic Dick.  The last thing I want to see is The Editorial Pet polluting Dick's book with his reeking presence.

----------


## Rakiduam

> Oh yeah, of course, it's annoying. I've been annoyed since day one, calmed down and get triggered again when I see that butt-ugly Ric.
> 
> I don't know... I kinda want to see Nightwing Tim. Since classic Tim is a fan of Dick, I won't mind him filling in for a year. 
> 
> IF it's the classic Tim.


Oh yeah, great idea.lets make them even more indistinguishable from each other, Dick's character hasn't been diluted enough

----------


## Restingvoice

> Oh yeah, great idea.lets make them even more indistinguishable from each other, Dick's character hasn't been diluted enough


Why would it be diluted? Damian's been Nightwing for over a year now and he's still distinct. Dick's been Batman for a year plus every other time he filled in and he's still distinct.

----------


## Pohzee

> Why would it be diluted? Damian's been Nightwing for over a year now and he's still distinct. Dick's been Batman for a year plus every other time he filled in and he's still distinct.


Tim already stole half of Dick's personality.

----------


## yohyoi

King's idea is bad. Sidelining Dick for Tim is not gonna be taken well. What important thing has Dick done in Rebirth? Nothing! Then why are we sidelining him and giving his mantle to Tim, who has his own? It's a double insult. Giving Tim something to do but taking everything from Dick.

smh...

----------


## Rakiduam

> Why would it be diluted? Damian's been Nightwing for over a year now and he's still distinct. Dick's been Batman for a year plus every other time he filled in and he's still distinct.


Damian has been Nightwing?!

Other than that, this seem like a trick question, but sure; once upon a time Robin's creation was tied to Dick, it was his mother name for him, it was his family colors but then was given to Jason because, then to Tim, who at least had some form of conection to Dick, until Lobdell got a hold of Tim's history...these days Robin is a franchise totally unlinked to any personal element. 

Guess who lost with that generalization.

It isn't comparable to Dick being Batman because DC will never allow Batman be separated from Bruce, from Dick they can take and take to make other characters work.

----------


## Pohzee

> King's idea is bad. Sidelining Dick for Tim is not gonna be taken well. What important thing has Dick done in Rebirth? Nothing! Then why are we sidelining him and giving his mantle to Tim, who has his own? It's a double insult. Giving Tim something to do but taking everything from Dick.
> 
> smh...


Tim has a mantle of his own? News to me!

----------


## yohyoi

> Why would it be diluted? Damian's been Nightwing for over a year now and he's still distinct. Dick's been Batman for a year plus every other time he filled in and he's still distinct.


Everyone hated Damian's Nightwing. The same will go to Tim's Nightwing. Nightwing is deeply connected to Dick's independence. Giving it to other characters makes no sense because they can't live up to the mantle's purpose. It's not like Batman or Superman, where they are symbols of humanity. Nightwing is a symbol of one person. It's a very personal mantle which is why it works.

----------


## yohyoi

> Tim has a mantle of his own? News to me!


Tim is a mascot of a restaurant franchise. Yum!!!

----------


## nhienphan2808

Itd be no better than this Ric thing. I dont trust King anymore.

----------


## yohyoi

> Damian has been Nightwing?!
> 
> Other than that, this seem like a trick question, but sure; once upon a time Robin's creation was tied to Dick, it was his mother name for him, it was his family colors but then was given to Jason because, then to Tim, who at least had some form of conection to Dick, until Lobdell got a hold of Tim's history...these days Robin is a franchise totally unlinked to any personal element. 
> 
> Guess who lost with that generalization.
> 
> It isn't comparable to Dick being Batman because DC will never allow Batman be separated from Bruce, from Dick they can take and take to make other characters work.


Atleast with Robin, you can say it's a symbol of Batman's most trusted sidekick. The same goes with Batman. It's a symbol of justice. But Nightwing isn't like that. There may be Kryptonian origins but Dick's main goal was for himself. It is a symbol of one person growing up. Giving it to other characters doesn't make sense because it loses meaning.

----------


## Konja7

> Everyone hated Damian's Nightwing. The same will go to Tim's Nightwing. Nightwing is deeply connected to Dick's independence. Giving it to other characters makes no sense because they can't live up to the mantle's purpose. It's not like Batman or Superman, where they are symbols of humanity. Nightwing is a symbol of one person. It's a very personal mantle which is why it works.


If I'm not mistaken, the Nightwing's Damian is from Injustice, right? I suspect there are other reasons why people hate that Damian's Nightwing.


I think Nightwing mantle can be transferred, but this would only be accepted if Dick isn't affected in a negative way for this.

That said, there isn't many characters who will be benefited from Nightwing mantle, since it a isn't big name. 

That's probably why DC doesn't follow the idea of Tim's Nightwing. The idea of Tim as Robin (even a second Robin) is more profitable.

----------


## oasis1313

> If I'm not mistaken, the Nightwing's Damian is from Injustice, right? I suspect there are other reasons why people hate that Damian's Nightwing.
> 
> 
> I think Nightwing mantle can be transferred, but this would only be accepted if Dick isn't affected in a negative way for this.
> 
> That said, there isn't many characters who will be benefited from Nightwing mantle, since it a isn't big name. 
> 
> That's probably why DC doesn't follow the idea of Tim's Nightwing. The idea of Tim as Robin (even a second Robin) is more profitable.


Damian is Robin now.  Tim has no right to it.  He's old enough to cut his umbilical cord, unless he wants to stay in the womb forever like the itty bitty baby he is.  If this is what the company thinks is wonderful, then give Damian another identity; I can't imagine him sharing it with a milque-toast sissy like Tim.  Nightwing symbolizes Dick Grayson's personal journey to adulthood.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't get people saying it will be cancelled when it is above 50% of what DC is selling right now. They would cancel most of their books if we use sales as a criteria. DiDio can keep it going too. We need to let our voice be heard everyday and everywhere since it is the only way we can stop Ric.


Because of how they are supporting it. They are struggling to put together even the basic necessities at this point. They aren't going out and getting new creators or new ideas, there's no new suit designs for Nightwing like their is with Batgirl or Red Hood, and overall sales aren't great. And lets not forget Lobdell and Fabian was the same team that burned off Tim's last TTs series for them. Clearly they don't want to put much work into the book here, despite it being a double ship and having sales better then many of their other books, which to me says the book isn't long for this world. Because why would you put much work into something that is basically just on a death march.

----------


## oasis1313

> Because of how they are supporting it. They are struggling to put together even the basic necessities at this point. They aren't going out and getting new creators or new ideas, there's no new suit designs for Nightwing like their is with Batgirl or Red Hood, and overall sales aren't great. And lets not forget Lobdell and Fabian was the same team that burned off Tim's last TTs series for them. Clearly they don't want to put much work into the book here, despite it being a double ship and having sales better then many of their other books, which to me says the book isn't long for this world. Because why would you put much work into something that is basically just on a death march.


It looks that way to me, too.  Maybe Darlin' Dan wants letters from a thousand Wingnuts begging him to put the character out of its misery.

----------


## Vinsanity

> It looks that way to me, too.  Maybe Darlin' Dan wants letters from a thousand Wingnuts begging him to put the character out of its misery.


Won't happen.

Everything will go back to the status quo. It always happens.

Dick will be NW and everything will be the same old, same old and it will be shaken up again since it is just meandering.

----------


## Dzetoun

I liked the fifth episode of _Titans_, but it felt a bit rushed. There was a definite sense of reaching the end of a chapter, which was heightened by the fact that the previews for episode six make it look like an interlude before the main story picks up again. In episode five, the developments with Dick and Starfire as well as with Gar and Rachel were satisfying but seemed to come too early and too easily. Same with the story points about the Nuclear Family and their masters. The big reveals were effective but once again at least one of them (at the very end) felt like it came too soon.

There was also a rather ham-handed moment where Gar was obviously acting as an audience avatar and Dick was obviously the mouthpiece of the show runners. It was cute and all, but had the subtlety of a batarang to the head.

----------


## OWL45

> I liked the fifth episode of _Titans_, but it felt a bit rushed. There was a definite sense of reaching the end of a chapter, which was heightened by the fact that the previews for episode six make it look like an interlude before the main story picks up again. In episode five, the developments with Dick and Starfire as well as with Gar and Rachel were satisfying but seemed to come too early and too easily. Same with the story points about the Nuclear Family and their masters. The big reveals were effective but once again at least one of them (at the very end) felt like it came too soon.
> 
> There was also a rather ham-handed moment where Gar was obviously acting as an audience avatar and Dick was obviously the mouthpiece of the show runners. It was cute and all, but had the subtlety of a batarang to the head.


Titans is awesome and Dick is a badass. If people aren’t checking it out they are cheating themselves. I also think given the way episode 5 ended and Jason Todd’s appearance the whole what makes them different thing will be explored. The idea that just because Dick fights more brutal makes him Jason Todd like is a very simplistic way of viewing the characters and is very limiting to both.

----------


## Konja7

I can't see Titans yet (I can't pay for the app), but I hear good things sbout this TV show.

I wonder if this can benefit Dick on comics in the future. Although Titans broadcast is relatively limited.

----------


## dietrich

> Everyone hated Damian's Nightwing. The same will go to Tim's Nightwing. Nightwing is deeply connected to Dick's independence. Giving it to other characters makes no sense because they can't live up to the mantle's purpose. It's not like Batman or Superman, where they are symbols of humanity. Nightwing is a symbol of one person. It's a very personal mantle which is why it works.


While I agree that Nightwing isn't a mantle that should be passed on I have to expand Injustice 1  yes everyone hated Nightwing Damian because he was responsible for Dick's death. Injustice 2 Tom Taylor was all about Damian Redemption and in the end Nightwing Damian saved the day and saved family.

On this very site fans have picked Damian as the one they will be okay with as Nightwing Successor. I think some will not like to see the mantle passed on but I doubt the reaction to a Nightwing other will be automatic hatred.

I believe that some fans will enjoy Tim in the role as a stand in. That was the wish Tim fans had when Dick gave Robin to Damian so pretty sure they'll jump at it. However I don't think it's a good idea for Tim to keep jumping into other characters hero identity. Though Stand in Nightwing saves face more than going back to share Robin with the replacement.

----------


## WingGrayson

> Titans is awesome and Dick is a badass. If people arent checking it out they are cheating themselves. I also think given the way episode 5 ended and Jason Todds appearance the whole what makes them different thing will be explored. The idea that just because Dick fights more brutal makes him Jason Todd like is a very simplistic way of viewing the characters and is very limiting to both.


Just wish we could get this in the UK, but unfortunately we're still waiting for a Netflix airdate.  Shame, because there's certainly no Dick Grayson in the comics at the moment.

----------


## yohyoi

Right now, I'm just paying for the DC Universe membership. I stopped buying comic books since Ric. It's better my money support people that have plans for Dick Grayson. I recommend everyone too. It's also great for trying out different comic series.

----------


## oasis1313

> I believe that some fans will enjoy Tim in the role as a stand in. That was the wish Tim fans had when Dick gave Robin to Damian so pretty sure they'll jump at it. However I don't think it's a good idea for Tim to keep jumping into other characters hero identity. Though Stand in Nightwing saves face more than going back to share Robin with the replacement.


Not ALL fans.  If you guys think I hate Tim now, wait till Tim took even Dick's own identity away from him.  I'd be howling bloody murder.

----------


## Godlike13

Thank goodness for Titans tv show right now. I know im quick to call the Titans comic crap, and haven’t really said many kind words towards that franchise in a while, but right the Titans tv show is the best thing Dick has going for him.

----------


## Starrius

> I liked the fifth episode of _Titans_, but it felt a bit rushed. There was a definite sense of reaching the end of a chapter, which was heightened by the fact that the previews for episode six make it look like an interlude before the main story picks up again. In episode five, the developments with Dick and Starfire as well as with Gar and Rachel were satisfying but seemed to come too early and too easily. Same with the story points about the Nuclear Family and their masters. The big reveals were effective but once again at least one of them (at the very end) felt like it came too soon.
> 
> There was also a rather ham-handed moment where Gar was obviously acting as an audience avatar and Dick was obviously the mouthpiece of the show runners. It was cute and all, but had the subtlety of a batarang to the head.


 I am sold after watching Episode 5. I will keep watching Titans.
'Kory, no killing".....................I like that
Kory sees those people dead, and she says "Dick is going to think that I did it."
lol
good chemistry between Anna and Brenton. I buy the Dick/Kory.
I am not sure about them having sex so soon. Why not just kiss passionately, and then Dick stops and pushes her away?
different way of doing Titans....so to be expected
I like Episode 5

----------


## king81992

> Damian is Robin now.  Tim has no right to it.  He's old enough to cut his umbilical cord, unless he wants to stay in the womb forever like the itty bitty baby he is.  If this is what the company thinks is wonderful, then give Damian another identity; I can't imagine him sharing it with a milque-toast sissy like Tim.  Nightwing symbolizes Dick Grayson's personal journey to adulthood.


Honestly,if Dick stops being Nightwing, the next one should be Damian.It just feels right.

Tim should get the Flamebird identity. No one is using it right now.

----------


## Pohzee

Grayson in a nutshell.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Tim already stole half of Dick's personality.


Which part and when?




> King's idea is bad. Sidelining Dick for Tim is not gonna be taken well. What important thing has Dick done in Rebirth? Nothing! Then why are we sidelining him and giving his mantle to Tim, who has his own? It's a double insult. Giving Tim something to do but taking everything from Dick.
> 
> smh...


Sidelining how? If a city of a hero is incapacitated, logically a replacement is needed. It makes much more sense than letting a brain damage patient alone in a crime-riddled city. 




> Everyone hated Damian's Nightwing. The same will go to Tim's Nightwing. Nightwing is deeply connected to Dick's independence. Giving it to other characters makes no sense because they can't live up to the mantle's purpose. It's not like Batman or Superman, where they are symbols of humanity. Nightwing is a symbol of one person. It's a very personal mantle which is why it works.


Everyone hating on everyone's replacement is why I never listen to it. Even Dick Grayson Batman has his haters. That said, I can count on fan hate to make sure the replacement isn't permanent. 

As for Nightwing being a personal self-growth identity, that is not more important than a city that needs to be protected, and Tim can just give it back to him once he recovers. They're not enemies.  




> Damian has been Nightwing?!
> 
> Other than that, this seems like a trick question, but sure; once upon a time Robin's creation was tied to Dick, it was his mother name for him, it was his family colors but then was given to Jason because, then to Tim, who at least had some form of conection to Dick, until Lobdell got a hold of Tim's history...these days Robin is a franchise totally unlinked to any personal element. 
> 
> Guess who lost with that generalization.
> 
> It isn't comparable to Dick being Batman because DC will never allow Batman to be separated from Bruce, from Dick they can take and take to make other characters work.


Why would it be a trick question? 
That answer makes sense if they're making Tim Nightwing permanent. I'm only interested to see it for a year while Dick recovers.

----------


## Godlike13

The idea of Tim as Nightwing is as boring as Tim as Red Robin is. Tim’s not distinct enough to make that prospect interesting to me, and it’s basically already what Red Robin is. And we have already seen what happen to TTs when they tried to make that his, so no thank you.

The idea Damian taking over only peaks my interest, to a degree, because at his core Damian is vastly different then Dick. And what’s more it could potentially play off how Dick was the one who saved Damian. Damian in part is a product of Dick’s work as a superhero. So it would be a testament to Dick’s own work, like it was when Dick took over for Bruce. Cause Dick is a product of Bruce’s work. Dick and Tim do not have that relationship or story. Tim taking over as Nightwing wouldn’t serve as a compliment to Dick.

----------


## Badou

Dick and Tim aren't close enough anymore where him as Nightwing would work. The two barely interact and don't really have any kind of relationship anymore. So I don't see how it could work even if it is done.

----------


## Restingvoice

I never said anyone else has to be interested in it, just that I'm interested, and only if it's classic Tim.

----------


## yohyoi

We live in a world where we get a badass live action Robin Dick but a comics not-Nightwing Ric. What a world!

----------


## Badou

Since the reboot has there even been an instance where it was Dick and Tim interacting with just each other? Like an instance where Jason, the Titans, or Batman aren't also there but just the two of them. I can't think of one.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Grayson in a nutshell.


Now I wish we had a panel of Dick Grayson shooting at things without any pants on.

On other points being discussed.

Robin might have been passed on from person to person but there really is only one Robin important to the Batman story and that's Dick. Everyone else are replacements that the can be erased and Batman will still remain true. I feel that's the reason Dick is still pushed as Robin. His Robin tenure is the most important and the without whom the Batman story becomes lacking/suffers.

New 52 DC erased Tim's time as Robin from the batman story and they still seem reluctant to restore it fully in Rebirth despite Tim having had a long running Robin solo and being the Longest serving after Dick. Damian and Jason can be removed and the core story of batman remains the same but Dick can't be erased

So while Dick is no longer Robin he is the only Robin that matters and the most  Iconic.

Interesting idea from King but glad it didn't pan out. I don't want Tim becoming Nightwing at this time. It doesn't help the character and just highlights the Issues Tim has been having since Damian. YJ is a great direction  for Tim.

I don't see Dick ever needing to give Nightwing to another hero even when he was a Spy Nightwig didn't get passed .

----------


## oasis1313

> We live in a world where we get a badass live action Robin Dick but a comics not-Nightwing Ric. What a world!


Yeah, it would seem like a SANE parent company would want to capitalize on that.  Oh, wait--that's just if the company bigwigs are interested in making money.  Since DC's purpose is to act as some sort of Welfare system for well-connected old fanboys, who needs to turn a profit?  That's for those grunts living in the REAL world.

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah, it would seem like a SANE parent company would want to capitalize on that.  Oh, wait--that's just if the company bigwigs are interested in making money.  Since DC's purpose is to act as some sort of Welfare system for well-connected old fanboys, who needs to turn a profit?  That's for those grunts living in the REAL world.


To be fair, DC comics section doesn't really can capitalize this. Unfortunately, the success on other media doesn't affect much on comic sales (that's one of the problems that current comics don't allow new readers to enter). 

That said, DC comics would probably push Titans comics if its team was similar to the TV series team. However, these teams are pretty different at this point.

----------


## Ascended

Yeah, larger media efforts like movies and video games don't really have much of an impact on comic sales. You see a tiny spike for a month maybe, and trades see a slightly bigger bump, but 99% of the time it has no impact. Comics are too insulated and poorly advertised to pick up any of that success. Since the modern era of comic book movies started in the early 00's, we've probably seen what, two exceptions to that rule? 

However, Dick *might* be in a position where he *might* be one of those rare, rare exceptions. Let's say that the Nightwing film does actually get made, and let's say it's not completely horrible. I know those are two really big "maybes" and highly unlikely because WB suck, but let's pretend for a second. Now, that larger media success is going to result in merchandise sales, and while DC doesn't chase synergy like Marvel does, they do dip their toes in it. With such a strong, deep history and such a loyal fanbase, it's *possible* that a Nightwing film (or show or game or whatever) could result in a new direction and a slightly better than usual creative team in the comics......and it *might* culminate in the fanbase (which is already one of the best, most loyal in comics) growing by a noticeable factor.

Maybe.

Not likely. But if anyone at DC was going to be an exception to the "movie success doesn't mean comic success" rule, it'd be Grayson.

----------


## Badou

A Nightwing show would potentially have more impact I think than a Nightwing movie. Like how the Flash show gave the Flash comic a consistent sales bump from when it started to being released. Before the show the Flash comic actually used to sell near or around where the Nightwing comic sold, but after the show came out the book jumped into being DC's 2nd highest selling solo hero book.

I think a show like that, or even a cartoon, give the character a consistent other media presence that has a longer run where fans might be more inclined to check out the comic property. I feel like movies can do that too sometimes, but I think they tend to cause a bump in trade sales rather than a bump in the ongoing comic issues.

----------


## babybats

I think a live action show about Nightwing is almost impossible right now and for the foreseeable future.  There are already two Batman-like-guy-without-powers shows out there (Arrow and Daredevil), and even Gotham is there to check off the Batman lore nostalgia box.  There's really nothing about Nightwing's world or abilities that make him distinct enough to base a TV show or movie on.  

I can see a Grayson-esque spy show happening, though.  To keep it from being a generic spy show where anyone could be the lead, the emphasis would have to be on the fact that he's a former superhero turned spy in a world of superheroes and villains.  It helps that Spyral has a lot of interesting characters and ideas attached to it.  There's already a superhero/spy thing going on in Agents of Shield, but if Grayson is thematically different enough it can work.

I think a Nightwing cartoon is also pretty much never going to happen.  His city and rouges gallery aren't interesting enough, and everyone's just going to go "Why would we make a Nightwing cartoon when we can just do Batman again?  Or any of the other DC properties we've never touched because we're too busy doing Batman?"  That said, I think Dick gets more than enough popularity from cartoons as a side character, or a main in an ensemble like TT or YG.

----------


## Konja7

> A Nightwing show would potentially have more impact I think than a Nightwing movie. Like how the Flash show gave the Flash comic a consistent sales bump from when it started to being released. Before the show the Flash comic actually used to sell near or around where the Nightwing comic sold, but after the show came out the book jumped into being DC's 2nd highest selling solo hero book.
> 
> I think a show like that, or even a cartoon, give the character a consistent other media presence that has a longer run where fans might be more inclined to check out the comic property. I feel like movies can do that too sometimes, but I think they tend to cause a bump in trade sales rather than a bump in the ongoing comic issues.


A show could help, but even that depends of luck. The Flash TV series is pretty popular (more than the other superhero TV shows), so it's difficult to know if a Nightwing show can get the same luck. Also, it can be other factors that help the sales of Flash comic. 

Of course, it's even difficult that DC Entertainment consider a Nightwing TV series without Batman (they plan Batwoman, but that decision was influenced by other factors). 


The current Titans series seems to be successful, but its broadcast is more limited due to the format.

----------


## Badou

> I think a live action show about Nightwing is almost impossible right now and for the foreseeable future.  There are already two Batman-like-guy-without-powers shows out there (Arrow and Daredevil), and even Gotham is there to check off the Batman lore nostalgia box.  There's really nothing about Nightwing's world or abilities that make him distinct enough to base a TV show or movie on.


I wouldn't say it is impossible. There is talk of making a Batgirl show for the DC streaming service and that isn't really that different from what a Nightwing show would be. So it would just be a Nightwing spinoff show from the already ongoing Titans show. They already have an actor in place and established in their DC streaming universe. So there is a path for it happening, unlike the Nightwing movie. 




> That said, I think Dick gets more than enough popularity from cartoons as a side character, or a main in an ensemble like TT or YG.


Not enough where it would effect the character in the comics. That is the point. He will need an other media adaptation with his name in the title to really change how DC views the character.

----------


## Badou

> A show could help, but even that depends of luck. The Flash TV series is pretty popular (more than the other superhero TV shows), so it's difficult to know if a Nightwing show can get the same luck. Also, it can be other factors that help the sales of Flash comic. 
> 
> Of course, it's even difficult that DC Entertainment consider a Nightwing TV series without Batman (they plan Batwoman, but that decision was influenced by other factors). 
> 
> 
> The current Titans series seems to be successful, but its broadcast is more limited due to the format.


Yeah, that will be the big problem. The Flash TV show reaches a lot more people than probably any show on DC's streaming service would. So even if the character somehow gets a solo show the audience might not be big enough to really change much given where the show would be.

----------


## Konja7

> I can see a Grayson-esque spy show happening, though.  To keep it from being a generic spy show where anyone could be the lead, the emphasis would have to be on the fact that he's a former superhero turned spy in a world of superheroes and villains.  It helps that Spyral has a lot of interesting characters and ideas attached to it.  There's already a superhero/spy thing going on in Agents of Shield, but if Grayson is thematically different enough it can work.


I think a Grayson spy show has even less oppotunity than a Nightwing show (and I don't think a Nightwing show has much possibility). 

It would be a pretty generic spy show. Dick Grayson isn't a big name for the general audience (even if he's pretty known as Robin). If DC plans a spy show, they would probably use other new characters (or superheroes with secret identity).

----------


## Jackalope89

Honestly, the way Titans is going (and Young Justice a few years back) is probably the best road for Dick to go from Robin to Nightwing.

----------


## Konja7

> I wouldn't say it is impossible. There is talk of making a Batgirl show for the DC streaming service and that isn't really that different from what a Nightwing show would be. So it would just be a Nightwing spinoff show from the already ongoing Titans show. They already have an actor in place and established in their DC streaming universe. So there is a path for it happening, unlike the Nightwing movie.


I didn't know there's a talk for a Batgirl show on streaming.

So far, I see more possibilities for a spinoff of Starfire. Dick has a good reception in Titans, but I do not feel that he has charmed the audience. Although maybe I'm wrong.

----------


## babybats

> I think a Grayson spy show has even less oppotunity than a Nightwing show (and I don't think a Nightwing show has much possibility). 
> 
> It would be a pretty generic spy show. Dick Grayson isn't a big name for the general audience (even if he's pretty known as Robin). If DC plans a spy show, they would probably use other new characters (or superheroes with secret identity).


A generic spy show today is more rooted in reality, and Grayson would take a more classic Bond route with the sci fi gadgets and villains.  That sort of thing isn't being done by any modern TV shows (except AoS).




> I wouldn't say it is impossible. There is talk of making a Batgirl show for the DC streaming service and that isn't really that different from what a Nightwing show would be. So it would just be a Nightwing spinoff show from the already ongoing Titans show. They already have an actor in place and established in their DC streaming universe. So there is a path for it happening, unlike the Nightwing movie.


Batgirl makes sense because there are so few female-led hero shows.  And imo if they were to make a Titans spin-off, I feel like any of the other Titans would be a more logical choice.  But DC loves the Bats, so maybe they'll make a Nightwing show for their streaming service.  That's a limited audience and isn't going to help comic sales like the CW's Flash did.

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## Aahz

> Batgirl makes sense because there are so few female-led hero shows.


DC has Supergirl, kind off Legends of Tomorrow (haven't seen new seasons 4 sofar, but in season 3 the male characters were imo mostly sidelined) and possibly soon Batwoman, thats not so bad. 




> That's a limited audience and isn't going to help comic sales like the CW's Flash did.


Did the show really increase the sales much? I mean Flash was allrady one DCs biggest charcters.

----------


## babybats

> DC has Supergirl, kind off Legends of Tomorrow (haven't seen new seasons 4 sofar, but in season 3 the male characters were imo mostly sidelined) and possibly soon Batwoman, thats not so bad. 
> 
> Did the show really increase the sales much? I mean Flash was allrady one DCs biggest charcters.


Sorry, I meant in general/in the past there hasn't been many female shows, so it makes sense for them to be thinking about Batgirl because there's been a recent push to remedy that (Supergirl, Batwoman, the DC Superhero Girls show or w/e that's called).  Though tbh I'm surprised they'd be talking about Batgirl when Batwoman is already in the works.

Someone said earlier that the show increased sales, which is why a NW show would be helpful to the character.  But idk really.

----------


## Ascended

> Did the show really increase the sales much? I mean Flash was allrady one DCs biggest charcters.


If anyone has any studies or anything, it'd be interesting to see them. Perhaps there's been another exception to the "larger media uselessness" rule that I didn't know about. But I would guess the tv show really didn't make much of an impact on floppy sales, personally. I'd hazard that a consistent, quality creative team did more to benefit the title than tv synergy.    

Flash is also one of DC's biggest names, and among the most recognized superheroes on earth. Much like Superman, Spider-Man, and Wonder Woman, people are naturally inclined to like him. We *want* to like Flash, we just have to be given a good product to satisfy that need (because we don't like him enough to support him when the book isn't good). So when Barry gets a solid, long-term creative team it's not a surprise that his sales reflect that. 

As an aside, I think Nightwing is in that same category even though "Nightwing" doesn't have any real brand recognition outside of the hobby shops. You tell people that Robin grew up and became his own superhero, people are going to be inclined towards curiosity and they're going to want to see that. But not enough to suffer through the crap DC gives us, and since Dick doesn't benefit from a long running, quality creative team (or even direction) the sales don't reflect that potential. He doesn't have the recognition that Flash does but he's got more than enough foundation to build on.

I'm willing to bet money that if DC put a solid creative team on Nightwing and treated the character like he matters, the sales would break into higher ground. He sells well already, but he could move some serious units if consumers had some confidence in (DC's treatment of) his title. And you wouldn't even need a big name like Snyder, Johns, or Bendis. A solid B-guy would probably work just as well. Someone like an Al Ewing or a Williamson would be enough.

----------


## Badou

> I didn't know there's a talk for a Batgirl show on streaming.
> 
> So far, I see more possibilities for a spinoff of Starfire. Dick has a good reception in Titans, but I do not feel that he has charmed the audience. Although maybe I'm wrong.


I feel Starfire is one of the weaker parts of the show from what I've seen. I'm not caught up on it, but I don't really see how they would make a Starfire show. She doesn't really have many connections beyond the Titans as a setting. 




> Batgirl makes sense because there are so few female-led hero shows.  And imo if they were to make a Titans spin-off, I feel like any of the other Titans would be a more logical choice.  But DC loves the Bats, so maybe they'll make a Nightwing show for their streaming service.  That's a limited audience and isn't going to help comic sales like the CW's Flash did.


The other Titans have even fewer source material to adapt. There isn't much you can do with them beyond a team setting. Like maybe Raven would be the only one since she is young enough where they can use her in a school setting (that is what her current solo is doing) but I can't see any of the others doing much when they don't have a lot to utility outside of Dick. 

Well it isn't about it helping but just that it would give it the opportunity to. It would make the Nightwing brand more relevant where DC wouldn't treat the character as poorly in the comics and maybe use him a bit better. It would mainly be about having the Nightwing name in actual titles of other media instead of him just being part of a team or making a cameo appearance.

----------


## Badou

> Sorry, I meant in general/in the past there hasn't been many female shows, so it makes sense for them to be thinking about Batgirl because there's been a recent push to remedy that (Supergirl, Batwoman, the DC Superhero Girls show or w/e that's called).  Though tbh I'm surprised they'd be talking about Batgirl when Batwoman is already in the works.
> 
> Someone said earlier that the show increased sales, which is why a NW show would be helpful to the character.  But idk really.


Well they are also making a Stargirl show too on their streaming service. The Batgirl one is just a rumor at the moment I believe.

----------


## Aahz

> If anyone has any studies or anything, it'd be interesting to see them. Perhaps there's been another exception to the "larger media uselessness" rule that I didn't know about.


Are there any other exceptions?

----------


## Badou

> If anyone has any studies or anything, it'd be interesting to see them. Perhaps there's been another exception to the "larger media uselessness" rule that I didn't know about. But I would guess the tv show really didn't make much of an impact on floppy sales, personally. I'd hazard that a consistent, quality creative team did more to benefit the title than tv synergy.


The rule about other media not doing a lot for comic sales is generally true, but Flash is kind of the exception. Maybe it is because Flash never really had a big other media adaptation until now outside that poor early 90s show, but the CW show was a big hit and has raised the sales of the Flash comics some. It helped its sales from falling off as much as many of the books it used to sell around in the New 52, and since Rebirth the series has been DC's second most consistent selling solo title behind only Batman I think. So there are other factors involved but the book is better off now than where it was before the show came out.

----------


## Konja7

> I feel Starfire is one of the weaker parts of the show from what I've seen. I'm not caught up on it, but I don't really see how they would make a Starfire show. She doesn't really have many connections beyond the Titans as a setting.


Well, I was speaking about the reception. It seems Starfire has the best reception of the audience in general. 

I just don't see a big love for Dick in Titans show from the audience, so I don't think they will make a spinoff for him.

Of course, it's possible the places where I saw this don't reflect the reality.

----------


## babybats

> I feel Starfire is one of the weaker parts of the show from what I've seen. I'm not caught up on it, but I don't really see how they would make a Starfire show. She doesn't really have many connections beyond the Titans as a setting. 
> 
> The other Titans have even fewer source material to adapt. There isn't much you can do with them beyond a team setting. Like maybe Raven would be the only one since she is young enough where they can use her in a school setting (that is what her current solo is doing) but I can't see any of the others doing much when they don't have a lot to utility outside of Dick.


It's not so much about source material as it is about the concept of the character.  The point of doing a TV show or movie is to tell new stories, not just adapt the comics. 
 And as a concept, the other Titans are more exciting than Dick.  There's a reason nobody has ever wondered why Marvel never made a Hawkeye movie.  The only thing NW has going for him as a TV pitch is that he'd be a cheaper show to make because no powers.

----------


## Konja7

> It's not so much about source material as it is about the concept of the character.  The point of doing a TV show or movie is to tell new stories, not just adapt the comics. 
>  And as a concept, the other Titans are more exciting than Dick.  There's a reason nobody has ever wondered why Marvel never made a Hawkeye movie.  The only thing NW has going for him as a TV pitch is that he'd be a cheaper show to make because no powers.


Hard but true. 

The concept of Nightwing as a hero becoming totally independent is interesting, but you probably need to see Dick as a sidekick for a time, so that there will be a strong impact on a new audience.

Also, it doesn't help that the concept of a hero becoming independent has been used on TV shows before. So, it isn't as new as when Dick and his friends used on New Teen Titans.

----------


## Ascended

> Are there any other exceptions?


The most notable one is the Guardians of the Galaxy. I believe Ant-Man has also seen higher sales than he used to since his movie came out. If there are any others I'm either forgetting about them or didn't know about them in the first place. But I do want to say there was at least one other property that benefited from larger media adaptations......Hellboy maybe?




> The rule about other media not doing a lot for comic sales is generally true, but Flash is kind of the exception. Maybe it is because Flash never really had a big other media adaptation until now outside that poor early 90s show, but the CW show was a big hit and has raised the sales of the Flash comics some. It helped its sales from falling off as much as many of the books it used to sell around in the New 52, and since Rebirth the series has been DC's second most consistent selling solo title behind only Batman I think. So there are other factors involved but the book is better off now than where it was before the show came out.


I mean, you're not wrong that floppy sales went up *roughly* around the same time as the show hit, but there are so many factors in the mix I'm not convinced the CW made that much of an impact. I'm not saying you're wrong about it, I really don't know, but if you're right then the Flash seems to be the only high profile IP to see such a benefit. The other exceptions, to my knowledge, are all Z-list properties like the GotG. I mean, Arrow hasn't seen a big rise in sales because of the show, nor has Supergirl or Daredevil or Punisher.

----------


## Ascended

> as a concept, the other Titans are more exciting than Dick.  There's a reason nobody has ever wondered why Marvel never made a Hawkeye movie.  The only thing NW has going for him as a TV pitch is that he'd be a cheaper show to make because no powers.


I dunno if I can agree that the other Titans are more exciting, from a tv perspective. I mean, there's good stuff with all of those characters that a tv audience would eat up, but I can't say that they're inherently more interesting to the format than Dick. And plenty of shows about street level vigilantes have done well, the biggest difference between most of those characters and Nightwing is that Nightwing has an even bigger sandbox to play in, when DC admits that he's not just a Bat but a Titan and a Super as well. 

But then, it would also depend on how you approach Nightwing, too, and what elements you decided to work with and focus on.

I suspect they're trying to aim Dick on the Titans show towards the Nightwing transformation. We'll have to see how that goes over to be able to gauge how interested audiences might be.

And there's talk that Hawkeye is getting a series on that Marvel streaming app, so......we'll see how that plays out.

----------


## Badou

> It's not so much about source material as it is about the concept of the character.  The point of doing a TV show or movie is to tell new stories, not just adapt the comics. 
>  And as a concept, the other Titans are more exciting than Dick.  There's a reason nobody has ever wondered why Marvel never made a Hawkeye movie.  The only thing NW has going for him as a TV pitch is that he'd be a cheaper show to make because no powers.


I think the purpose of a TV show is to adapt a character. That can be with both new stories and stories from source material. Most use source material though and don't really do new things. Just take material from the comics (sometimes not even from their own comics) and create a show around it. That is basically all of what the DC shows have done. Dick Grayson has 80+ years of stories to use as a reference. So the idea that he isn't interesting enough is kind of flawed when he is one of DC's most popular characters and people have been wanting him in movies and TV for a while. They are making a fucking Alfred show, so it isn't like the bar is set high in terms of what DC/WB are willing to make too. 

And by what measure are the other Titans more exciting? Because they have powers? No one is going around asking for a Starfire or a Beast Boy movie or show. So I don't really follow your logic. I guess it is also personal preference. You obviously don't think much of or aren't that interested in Dick as a character and have no desire to see him in a solo adaptation. I obviously feel differently and think that with the success of Daredevil, Spider-man and Batman there is room for a version of Nightwing as a young solo hero in the DC Universe that fans would enjoy.

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## Badou

Also I think the Hawkeye argument is a bit flawed. People have wondered why they haven't made a Hawkeye movie, but Hawkeye is kind of a different character from Dick given Dick's history and legacy. Plenty of people also wondered why they never made a Black Widow movie as well and that is in production I think now. I mean by the logic that Dick as a concept isn't interesting or exciting enough for a movie or TV show then he also shouldn't have a solo comic over all those other Titans characters as well, but none of those Titans character ever have any kind of solo that can last because their concept quickly burns itself out.

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## Konja7

Badou, I don't think you need to be so defensive about this (Babybats think Grayson can work on a show as Spy).

As you said, Dick has a big legacy, story and popularity, which helps him a lot. 


However, this isn't so essential for a new audience, which TV shows try to attract (they don't focus so much on comic fans).

Many interesting concepts of Nightwing have been used on other TV shows. That's why it would be difficult to sell Nightwing spinoff for a new audience.

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## Jackalope89

> Badou, I don't think you need to be so defensive about this (Babybats think Grayson can work on a show as Spy).
> *
> As you said, Dick has a big legacy, story and popularity, which helps him a lot.* 
> 
> 
> However, this isn't so essential for a new audience, which TV shows try to attract (they don't focus so much on comic fans).
> 
> Many interesting concepts of Nightwing have been used on other TV shows. That's why it would be difficult to sell Nightwing spinoff for a new audience.


In all honesty, if not for his direct ties to Bruce/Batman, he'd be right up there with the Trinity in terms of importance.

----------


## Godlike13

While things going on in other media might not always lead to comic sales from what we see, when has the big 2 not pushed or increased the exposure of a character or team when they have something in other media going on. Even those TT animated movies inspired them to to do a relaunch of TTs to better align. Dick and Titans seeing nothing comic wise to coincide with the show, and whats more are actually seemingly being sabotage and culled, is weird. 
This is not typically what they do in these situations. Dick being taken out of Titans just in time for the show, exposing him less and away from the Titans, so they can contain him to just his book as he's remodeled into homeless taxi driver. With, and i think this is fair to say, a rushed downgrade in creator quality (like Lobdell or not, his reputation is not good. Him and Fabian even acknowledged and made fun of this in that interview), is weird. Really weird.

----------


## Konja7

As you said, it's weird. It isn't just Dick, they don't push Titans comics at all.

Maybe it's because the group on comics was pretty different from the group of the show. Even Dick, he's still Robin in Titans. 

Maybe Titans comics will be pushed (and Dick return to the group) for the second season of Titans series, when Dick will be Nightwing.

----------


## babybats

> I think the purpose of a TV show is to adapt a character. That can be with both new stories and stories from source material. Most use source material though and don't really do new things. Just take material from the comics (sometimes not even from their own comics) and create a show around it. That is basically all of what the DC shows have done. Dick Grayson has 80+ years of stories to use as a reference. So the idea that he isn't interesting enough is kind of flawed when he is one of DC's most popular characters and people have been wanting him in movies and TV for a while. *They are making a fucking Alfred show, so it isn't like the bar is set high in terms of what DC/WB are willing to make too.* 
> 
> And by what measure are the other Titans more exciting? Because they have powers? No one is going around asking for a Starfire or a Beast Boy movie or show. So I don't really follow your logic. I guess it is also personal preference. *You obviously don't think much of or aren't that interested in Dick as a character and have no desire to see him in a solo adaptation.* I obviously feel differently and think that with the success of Daredevil, Spider-man and Batman there is room for a version of Nightwing as a young solo hero in the DC Universe that fans would enjoy.
> 
> Also I think the Hawkeye argument is a bit flawed. People have wondered why they haven't made a Hawkeye movie, but Hawkeye is kind of a different character from Dick given Dick's history and legacy. Plenty of people also wondered why they never made a Black Widow movie as well and that is in production I think now. *I mean by the logic that Dick as a concept isn't interesting or exciting enough for a movie or TV show then he also shouldn't have a solo comic over all those other Titans characters as well, but none of those Titans character ever have any kind of solo that can last because their concept quickly burns itself out.*


Um ok you don't have to go all "you're not a real Dick fan" on me.  What I personally want and what studios want to hear in a pitch are different.  And the reason Dick has a solo comic at all is because he was _already_ popular.  People were _already_ sold, you don't need a hook.  And not having a solo book doesn't mean that any of the other Titans can't POSSIBLY carry a series.

But I didn't know they were making an Alfred show, so yeah anything's possible.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

Dick is probably the easiest Titan to pitch a show because he would be the cheapest. Him being non-powered gives him a leg up on the rest plus he's got a good setup in Bludhaven and the Batfamily drama is a plus.

I think Beast Boy is the only one of the remaining four that couldn't handle a show on his own. Ascended had a good pitch for an older BB that became a celebrity which could be a fun comedy movie tho. He could also work as the everyman POV for a Doom Patrol project tho.

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## Shockingjustice

> Dick is probably the easiest Titan to pitch a show because he would be the cheapest. Him being non-powered gives him a leg up on the rest plus he's got a good setup in Bludhaven and the Batfamily drama is a plus.
> 
> I think Beast Boy is the only one of the remaining four that couldn't handle a show on his own. Ascended had a good pitch for an older BB that became a celebrity which could be a fun comedy movie tho. He could also work as the everyman POV for a Doom Patrol project tho.


A beast boy series would work if they treated it like Ben 10. BB would have probably the best animated series if DC treated him with respect.

----------


## Badou

> Um ok you don't have to go all "you're not a real Dick fan" on me.  What I personally want and what studios want to hear in a pitch are different.  And the reason Dick has a solo comic at all is because he was _already_ popular.  People were _already_ sold, you don't need a hook.  And not having a solo book doesn't mean that any of the other Titans can't POSSIBLY carry a series.
> 
> But I didn't know they were making an Alfred show, so yeah anything's possible.


The discussion was how to increase Nightwing's sales and importance in comics, and the current status quo isn't going to change unless something from the outside causes DC to possibly look at the property differently, which would need to come from a other media source. DC isn't going to just randomly start to treat the character better in comics. The Nightwing brand needs to increase. So shooting down the idea of a solo movie or show because you don't think the concept is exciting enough kind of undercuts the property from ever being able to take that next step.

----------


## Restingvoice

DC Legends call Nightwing The Aerial Avenger

DrjGGIPUUAIEj2q.jpg

I think that fits better than The Dark Heir because he's not that dark, he doesn't really want to be Batman, and he likes to fly

Apparently, the original video was posted last year but I only just found out because of a tweet.

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick is probably the easiest Titan to pitch a show because he would be the cheapest. Him being non-powered gives him a leg up on the rest plus he's got a good setup in Bludhaven and the Batfamily drama is a plus.


 this is the last thing dick needs. This is why he's always just a side character in batman stuff and never the lead in his own. If your going to go that route you might as well do a Robin show.

----------


## WonderNight

> While things going on in other media might not always lead to comic sales from what we see, when has the big 2 not pushed or increased the exposure of a character or team when they have something in other media going on. Even those TT animated movies inspired them to to do a relaunch of TTs to better align. Dick and Titans seeing nothing comic wise to coincide with the show, and whats more are actually seemingly being sabotage and culled, is weird. 
> This is not typically what they do in these situations. Dick being taken out of Titans just in time for the show, exposing him less and away from the Titans, so they can contain him to just his book as he's remodeled into homeless taxi driver. With, and i think this is fair to say, a rushed downgrade in creator quality (like Lobdell or not, his reputation is not good. Him and Fabian even acknowledged and made fun of this in that interview), is weird. Really weird.


It's not weird. DC is investing in the comic with the the show. It's just called young justice. 

DC is always going to be more invested in Tim's or Damian's generations over dick's because there still teen and kids. They contrast the JL generation more than dick's. Dick's generation end up looking like the adults how still sits at the kids table. Which is why I don't like the way DC does generations. It should just be kids, teens and adults that's all, it gets the characters out of some of these little boxes they get stuck in.

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## Godlike13

And yet the Young Justice TV show was launched with Dick as part of its forefront. Its not that DC is investing more in Tim or Damian’s gen, cause as a whole their not, which is another thing that’s weird. There’s this weird disconnect. On one hand their positioning him as part of the face of both Titans and Young Justice, yet on the other their pulling him from Titans, which don’t get me wrong is embarrassment of a comic book, and further isolating him so he can be a hobo that they can’t be bother to keep or find proper creators for.

----------


## Konja7

However, Young Justice TV show started with Dick and his team at a young age. I think Dick will always be the first choice of Robin for DC entertainment, but it will start with a young Dick. 

That said, according to an interview with Bendis, the idea of a Young Justice comic come from Bendis, since DC doesn't have plans for this. So, DC didn't plan to push a Young Justice comic with the cartoon either.

----------


## Godlike13

By season 2 he was Nightwing, and now the upcoming season 3 has Nightwing as a prominent part of its promotional material. Even the sneak peak they realeased was just a clip of him.

----------


## Konja7

> By season 2 he was Nightwing, and now the upcoming season 3 has Nightwing as a prominent part of its promotional material. Even the sneak peak they realeased was just a clip of him.


Yeah. The cartoon allows focus on Dick as Nightwing and his grow, but it's because the nature of the show. At some point, Young Justice cartoon will end. Also, Young Justice don't affect Batman franchise on general. 

The comics mantain the hierarchry with JL at the top. That's why they can focus on young teams, but it's difficult for other superheroe adult teams.

----------


## Godlike13

But why have the YJ or Titans show focus on Dick, and build to Nightwing at all if DC is not invested or don’t want to invest in him. Those shows are investments. They’re exposing him to larger audiences with these shows. Why are they doing that then. Why is he in those shows, and why did they let YJ build to Nightwing and are having Titans do the same if they are not invested or don’t want to invest in the character as a young adult. That doesn’t make any sense to me. 
How is it that they want to increase his exposure more and more outside of comics, but then at the same time in comics want to decrease his exposer, lower his creative quality, and turn him into a hobo. That’s not typically what they do with characters that are seeing similar kind of exposure outside of comics. Though I’m still confused how his book gets the double ship, but then they can’t be bother to manage a proper creative team or matain a direction. Why even publish a book with him at all when they clearly either don’t want to, or just can’t manage, to support the book with basic necessities. Let alone twice a month.

----------


## Konja7

> Then why have the YJ or Titans show focus on Dick and build to Nightwing at all if DC is not invested or don’t want to invest in him. Those shows are investments. They’re exposing him to larger audiences with these shows. Why are they doing that if they are not invested or don’t want to invest in the character. Why is he in those shows, and why did they let YJ build to Nightwing and are having Titans do the same. That doesn’t make any sense to me. 
> How is it that they want to increase his exposure more and more outside of comics, but then at the same time in comics want to decrease his exposer, lower his creative quality, and turn him into a hobo. Though at the same time I’m still confused how his books gets the double ship, but they can’t be bother to manage a proper creative team or mantian a direction.


Although the double ship confuse me, I think I can understand the exposition of Dick Grayson in Young Justice or Titans.


Dick Grayson as Robin is well known in general audience (even between people who doesn't know his real name). Although Nightwing isn't so well known, the concept of Dick Robin becoming independent and leaving the shadow of Batman is pretty popular. 

So, it isn't weird that they promote this concept for Young Justice and Titans. After all, these are finite shows and elseworlds, so they can develop Dick as they want. 


In change, comics are infinite media and DC has a hierarchy (where Batman is the top). 

The concept of Dick as Nightwing becoming independent and leaving the shadow of Batman lost its force over time, so they need new evolutions for the character. However, they don't want Batman to feel old, so they don't allow a new grow for Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

Comics can develop Dick as they want too. They are in control of Dick’s age and how he develops. For instance they are allowing him to grow into a homeless taxi driver, even called it the next evolution of Dick Grayson, and they are the ones that put him under writers that write him like he’s ancient. If the want him to come off younger, they can easily do that. They’re in control of this.

I understand that they are afraid the he’ll make Batman too old, what I’m not understanding is how introducing the character and the concept of Nightwing to more audiences outside of comics is leading to the character being pulled from books, isolation, and a downgrade in creative quality. I also don’t think its completely fair to say that DC doesn’t want to invest in the character or his generation, cause if that was the case the Titans tv show wouldn’t be going on right now. 
Now clearly the comics side doesn’t seem to want to invest more into Dick or his gen. But then again, when it comes to comics, why are they even publishing his book then, and what more then why did they double it’s production. To me all this seems weird. Even if they’ll afraid he’ll make Batman seem too old and so don’t want to come up with new ideas to for Dick to grow from, then why is he currently a homeless taxi driver and why are the telling us how it’s the next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
I’m starting to think that even when it comes to comics it’s not that they don’t necessarily want to invest more, but that they just put him in hands of management that are bad at following through with ideas and putting things together.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> this is the last thing dick needs. This is why he's always just a side character in batman stuff and never the lead in his own. If your going to go that route you might as well do a Robin show.


I prefer Spyral to Bludhaven but even then i still see the writers bringing the batfamily from time to time. 

I'm not advocating making Dick's whole arc about his connection to the Batfamily. Its just easy material to use from time to time.

Family connections is an easy subplot to use.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I prefer Spyral to Bludhaven but even then i still see the writers bringing the batfamily from time to time. 
> 
> I'm not advocating making Dick's whole arc about his connection to the Batfamily. Its just easy material to use from time to time.
> 
> Family connections is an easy subplot to use.


So easy that has become overused and tiresome.

The last time an interaction with the bat family was beneficial for Dick was Damian before the current arc on Teen Titans

----------


## Restingvoice

> Comics can develop Dick as they want too. They are in control of Dick’s age and how he develops. For instance they are allowing him to grow into a homeless taxi driver, even called it the next evolution of Dick Grayson, and they are the ones that put him under writers that write him like he’s ancient. If the want him to come off younger, they can easily do that. They’re in control of this.
> 
> I understand that they are afraid the he’ll make Batman too old, what I’m not understanding is how introducing the character and the concept of Nightwing to more audiences outside of comics is leading to the character being pulled from books, isolation, and a downgrade in creative quality. I also don’t think its completely fair to say that DC doesn’t want to invest in the character or his generation, cause if that was the case the Titans tv show wouldn’t be going on right now. 
> Now clearly the comics side doesn’t seem to want to invest more into Dick or his gen. But then again, when it comes to comics, why are they even publishing his book then, and what more then why did they double it’s production. To me all this seems weird. Even if they’ll afraid he’ll make Batman seem too old and so don’t want to come up with new ideas to for Dick to grow from, then why is he currently a homeless taxi driver and why are the telling us how it’s the next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
> I’m starting to think that even when it comes to comics it’s not that they don’t necessarily want to invest more, but that they just put him in hands of management that are bad at following through with ideas and putting things together.


...Johns. Both Titans Tv series and Rebirth in general was directed by Johns. I don't know if it was him who wanted Nightwing to double ship, but he direct where every Rebirth title would go in general. At least he's a huge proponent of returning Nightwing to the blue costume and said he had to fight Didio for that. 

Then, I forgot when, Johns relinguished his authority to focus more on writing, so general direction went back to Didio.  

Now as for investments, Didio saw Percy's work so he wants him to use it in the comic, which resulted in Dark Web. So far so good... if you can say replacing Humphries with Percy so soon as good... but when King proposed the amnesia story, he decided to go with that and cancel Percy's story. Why? I don't know. Since the first time he decided to bring Percy to replace Humphries is out of personal interest, I can only guess he finds amnesia Dick personally more interesting.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

You guys need to learn the difference between WB and DC. WB will continue to utilize Dick Grayson in various ways because he is a lucrative IP as Robin and as Nightwing. DC doesn't feel the same way, and see Nightwing as more of a mid-tier IP that they need to regularly publish simply for variety. That's why they don't care about the character and why they only need to see mid-tier sales to be satisfied.

----------


## dietrich

> You guys need to learn the difference between WB and DC. WB will continue to utilize Dick Grayson in various ways because he is a lucrative IP as Robin and as Nightwing. DC doesn't feel the same way, and see Nightwing as more of a mid-tier IP that they need to regularly publish simply for variety. That's why they don't care about the character and why they only need to see mid-tier sales to be satisfied.


Yeah. We learnt the difference and that their priorities differ around Forever Evil. While some at DC were against killing Dick, they were still debating. Officially it was WB that stepping in and said no.

----------


## dropkickjake

Random assortment of Dick related thoughts:

1- I'm rewatching Young Justice while I put grades in for my students. This is clearly the way to do a Dick Grayson team. Hell. Its the way to portray Dick in general. 

2-With Tim becoming Robin again, what is Damian up to? 

3- Have we made it forward far enough into the solicits to see an end  to Hobo Ric? Any word on what Dick will be up to yet?

----------


## Badou

> Comics can develop Dick as they want too. They are in control of Dick’s age and how he develops. For instance they are allowing him to grow into a homeless taxi driver, even called it the next evolution of Dick Grayson, and they are the ones that put him under writers that write him like he’s ancient. If the want him to come off younger, they can easily do that. They’re in control of this.
> 
> I understand that they are afraid the he’ll make Batman too old, what I’m not understanding is how introducing the character and the concept of Nightwing to more audiences outside of comics is leading to the character being pulled from books, isolation, and a downgrade in creative quality. I also don’t think its completely fair to say that DC doesn’t want to invest in the character or his generation, cause if that was the case the Titans tv show wouldn’t be going on right now. 
> Now clearly the comics side doesn’t seem to want to invest more into Dick or his gen. But then again, when it comes to comics, why are they even publishing his book then, and what more then why did they double it’s production. To me all this seems weird. Even if they’ll afraid he’ll make Batman seem too old and so don’t want to come up with new ideas to for Dick to grow from, then why is he currently a homeless taxi driver and why are the telling us how it’s the next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
> I’m starting to think that even when it comes to comics it’s not that they don’t necessarily want to invest more, but that they just put him in hands of management that are bad at following through with ideas and putting things together.


Well I think the live action Titans show wasn't something they were exactly quick to do. So it isn't like DC/WB were eager to do this and kind of just ran out of properties to adapt. They already have Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Constantine, Suicide Squad, Flash, Green Arrow, Supergirl, a pre Batman Gotham series, and some random other superhero team in LoS. So Titans is kind of their last somewhat well known property they could adapt. 

But as for just the comics side I just don't think DC cares enough. Like we've said many times they know they can just throw a creative team together and the book will be a mid level seller and even double ship it and have it do okay where they don't need to put much effort in. I don't think it is more complicated than that. Although the sales are starting to slip a lot and aren't doing well. Nightwing isn't a property DC will ever invest much in with the comics because in their eyes he is just a lesser Batman stuck in a lesser Gotham. There are no creators that are jumping at the chance to write Nightwing and it is a property that DC has no desire to use in bigger DCU events or have the character play a bigger role in the DCU when they already have Batman doing it. We are over 7 years since the reboot and the character still has barely gained anything in that time. Outside the Grayson series and tying him to Spyral he hasn't really gained anything that offset everything he lost since the reboot. 

So basically it is a property that isn't really a high priority for them and has no creators that have any level of influence that hold the character in high regard. So he is kind of stuck where he is with no signs of advancement. Maybe how much the character is fucked over by editorial and how heavily managed he is might be a factor too, but there is no Palmiotti and Conner fighting to write a Nightwing series like they did with Harley Quinn, no Morrison that is interested in writing Nightwing like how he wants to redesign the Green Lantern mythos, no Priest that feels empowered and passionate about writing Nightwing the way he is with Deathstroke, no Johns that feels tied to Nightwing the way he is with Shazam, no Rucka or G. Willow Wilson that wants to do a new Nightwing run the way they wanted to with Wonder Woman, no Lobdell that feels ownership of Nghtwing the way he feels of Red Hood and always put him in the best position he can, and of course no Bendis that can take control of the Nightwing property the way he can with Superman or Young Justice. There is just no one out there like that. Seeley was the closest, but I think he mainly felt responsibility to not abandon the character after Grayson ended and was frustrated with big parts of his Nightwing run.

----------


## Konja7

Well, I hope DC doesn't read the sales of October as a hint that people like Ric:

Nightwing #50 - 29,450 copies

Nightwing #51 - 35,026 copies


http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, I hope DC doesn't read the sales of October as a hint that people like Ric:
> 
> Nightwing #50 - 29,450 copies
> 
> Nightwing #51 - 35,026 copies
> 
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


I'm truly surprised that # 51 sold more than # 50.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I'm truly surprised that # 51 sold more than # 50.


Wasn't #50 more expensive?

So... they are so dumb
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-to-nightwing/

----------


## byrd156

> Wasn't #50 more expensive?
> 
> So... they are so dumb
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-to-nightwing/


If it was classic Duela I would honestly be kinda excited for it. Seriously why did they ruin her like this, I thought we were over the face cutting edgelord garbage. Rebirth really is turning into the New 52 2.0.

----------


## WonderNight

> Wasn't #50 more expensive?
> 
> So... they are so dumb
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-to-nightwing/


just cancel the book already.good god.

They really don't have a direction for the character do they? I told people this batman lite doesn't work. DC is and will never be interested in a mini batman. But fans the the 90s/00 to much so here we are.

There are only two real options here. Batman goes away for nightwing stops being Jr batman.

----------


## joybeans

> Well, I hope DC doesn't read the sales of October as a hint that people like Ric:
> 
> Nightwing #50 - 29,450 copies
> 
> Nightwing #51 - 35,026 copies
> 
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


#50 was a milestone issue, and #51 had a foil cover. Every ongoing book has a sales bump.

----------


## Badou

> Well, I hope DC doesn't read the sales of October as a hint that people like Ric:
> 
> Nightwing #50 - 29,450 copies
> 
> Nightwing #51 - 35,026 copies
> 
> 
> http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-10.html


Well we knew sales were going to jump given they sold this as a direct tie in to the Batman series and the sales incentives joybeans mentioned. They don't look to have jumped that much though, which is good. 




> So... they are so dumb
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-to-nightwing/


What a joke this book is. Like seriously Lobdell is just writing this as a joke now. Taking crap he did in his Red Hood book and throwing it into Nightwing now. This all looks like a bad New 52 special one off. Maybe this is some Three Jokers tie in or something. 

I really have no idea how people can keep defending this book when it has done nothing to inspire any confidence and took a concept that could have been a great introspective look at a character who has 80 years of history but instead decided to squander it all.

----------


## dropkickjake

holy carp. when was the last time a Nightwing book was this bad?

----------


## oasis1313

> holy carp. when was the last time a Nightwing book was this bad?


I've got every appearance of Dick Grayson since 1958 and, no, I have never seen it this bad.

----------


## Rakiduam

> holy carp. when was the last time a Nightwing book was this bad?


At the time he was raped? I hate that one.

----------


## Pohzee

> I've got every appearance of Dick Grayson since 1958 and, no, I have never seen it this bad.


You are officially declaring this to be worse than the Bruce Jones run with Jason Tentacles Todd

----------


## Fergus

Red Hood and Joker's Daughter just what we wanted in Nightwing. Honestly I get the Jason guest spot Lobdell has been trying to make a red hood/Nightwing interactions happen so only right for him to use this chance but Jokers Daughter?  What the hell? Lobdell really has a handful of ideas that he keeps rotating and now he's bringing that tripe to Nightwing.

----------


## Fergus

> Well we knew sales were going to jump given they sold this as a direct tie in to the Batman series and the sales incentives joybeans mentioned. They don't look to have jumped that much though, which is good. 
> 
> 
> 
> What a joke this book is. Like seriously Lobdell is just writing this as a joke now. Taking crap he did in his Red Hood book and throwing it into Nightwing now. This all looks like a bad New 52 special one off. Maybe this is some Three Jokers tie in or something. 
> 
> I really have no idea how people can keep defending this book when it has done nothing to inspire any confidence and took a concept that could have been a great introspective look at a character who has 80 years of history but instead decided to squander it all.


People are defending this title or direction? I've seen a handful of Scott Lobdell fans saying it's not bad but I haven't seen anyone defending boldly.

----------


## oasis1313

> At the time he was raped? I hate that one.


I’d tried VERY hard to forget that disaster and it looks like I’d succeeded in putting it out of.mind.  You’re right—there are worse things than being a ugly amnesiac bum.

----------


## dietrich

I'snt it a conflict of interest having this particular guy write RHATO and Nightwing?
So we're getting what he failed to sell from nu52. Goodie.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'snt it a conflict of interest having this particular guy write RHATO and Nightwing?
> So we're getting what he failed to sell from nu52. Goodie.


No because despite how we act on here sometimes, these characters aren't competing. A writer having stake in one character doesn't mean that they have to undermine another character.

That being said, I'd still like a new writer please.

----------


## Rac7d*

> No because despite how we act on here sometimes,* these characters aren't competing.* A writer having stake in one character doesn't mean that they have to undermine another character.
> 
> That being said, I'd still like a new writer please.


It be nice if it was true   but nah

----------


## dietrich

> No because despite how we act on here sometimes, these characters aren't competing. A writer having stake in one character doesn't mean that they have to undermine another character.
> 
> That being said, I'd still like a new writer please.


So Lobdell is just that bad that he believes this is a good idea for nightwing?

----------


## dropkickjake

That sneak peak from YJ season 3 with Dick in Russia breaking trafficked children free and talking to Oracle. That is perfect for what Nightwing should be. Why can't we have that?!

----------


## oasis1313

> No because despite how we act on here sometimes, these characters aren't competing. A writer having stake in one character doesn't mean that they have to undermine another character.
> 
> That being said, I'd still like a new writer please.


In theory, the more books a creator has going on and the more successful they are, the bigger the paycheck.

----------


## yohyoi

They are gonna ship Ric with that crazy Joker wannabe. I'm out!

----------


## yohyoi

> No because despite how we act on here sometimes, these characters aren't competing. A writer having stake in one character doesn't mean that they have to undermine another character.
> 
> That being said, I'd still like a new writer please.


But Nightwing is still getting New52 Lobdell so?

----------


## Konja7

> #50 was a milestone issue, and #51 had a foil cover. Every ongoing book has a sales bump.


It's true, the books with a foil cover seem to have a increase of sales.

----------


## Ascended

> That sneak peak from YJ season 3 with Dick in Russia breaking trafficked children free and talking to Oracle. That is perfect for what Nightwing should be. Why can't we have that?!


Someone needs to go to a con and ask Didio that very question. We've got the blueprint for Nightwing's future. We know it can be successful. We know it would give Dick a solid purpose and role that would not only help him stand on his own, but would even add (if tangentially) to Bruce's legend. 

Why DC isn't pulling the trigger and making it happen is beyond me. I'm relatively certain that this has objectively passed into the realm of "bad business because someone has a bias they can't get past" rather than just being a "solid, well-considered business choice that fans simply don't like because we're Wingnuts."

----------


## oasis1313

> But Nightwing is still getting New52 Lobdell so?


I've got no issues with Lobdell personally; a lot of people disliked his work on Young Justice, but I never saw it since I don't buy anything with Tim Dreck in it.  I've liked what he's done in his X-Men/Gen-X history and I love what he's done for Jason.  I love all Fabian's work.  More and more as things come out, this shooting out Dick's batbrain was Tom King's idea with absolutely no plan beyond the panel with the bullet colliding and it all got dropped in Lobdell and Fabian's laps so they're trying to make the best of it.  I can't be mad at Lobdell and Fabian here; hopefully they can make something decent out of it (somehow).  I'm glad the book is still double shipping so maybe they can get past it more quickly.  Too bad Dick got shot instead of Tim Dreck--now THAT would have had some noticeable impact on the emotions of the rest of the Bat-Family.

----------


## Konja7

> Someone needs to go to a con and ask Didio that very question. We've got the blueprint for Nightwing's future. We know it can be successful. We know it would give Dick a solid purpose and role that would not only help him stand on his own, but would even add (if tangentially) to Bruce's legend. 
> 
> Why DC isn't pulling the trigger and making it happen is beyond me. I'm relatively certain that this has objectively passed into the realm of "bad business because someone has a bias they can't get past" rather than just being a "solid, well-considered business choice that fans simply don't like because we're Wingnuts."


Dick as spy on Grayson was successful, because it has good writers. I don't know if the direction would work with a mediocre writer. 

DC doesn't seem to be interested on put good writers on Dick/Nightwing. Maybe it's because they don't think it would make more profits (Grayson started strong, but its become a midseller over time).

Also, it doesn't seem to be popular writers interested on Dick at the moment. Didio and others will probably allow a popular writer to take Nightwing if these writers are interested.

----------


## Godlike13

> Wasn't #50 more expensive?
> 
> So... they are so dumb
> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11...-to-nightwing/


Fist Superheavy, and next RH/Arsenal. How long before they move him to Burnside at this rate. LoL, this new direction just continues to look so frigging lazy and uninspired.

----------


## Rac7d*

> That sneak peak from YJ season 3 with Dick in Russia breaking trafficked children free and talking to Oracle. That is perfect for what Nightwing should be. Why can't we have that?!


 nightwing like that is not accessible to batman thus  can no longer be a tool

----------


## Ascended

> Dick as spy on Grayson was successful, because it has good writers. I don't know if the direction would work with a mediocre writer.


Of course it'd survive with mediocre writers. What do you think is happening right now? Nightwing has had a long string of short runs and bad talent (with a few highlights here and there, admittedly) and is still one of DC's most consistent books; outselling most of the DCU that isn't Justice League. The fact that it sells so well even when it's utterly terrible is exactly why we have this problem in the first place. Well, that and possibly managerial bias. 

Worst case scenario is that such a change in direction doesn't yield any positive results. DC *literally* has nothing to lose by trying. 




> DC doesn't seem to be interested on put good writers on Dick/Nightwing. Maybe it's because they don't think it would make more profits (Grayson started strong, but its become a midseller over time).


That's quite likely, I suspect. DC seems to feel that Nightwing has a high sales floor, but a low ceiling, meaning they suffer some serious diminishing returns for larger and larger investments. And I think in the short term that's likely correct. But building a brand isn't a quick, six-month advertising campaign, it's a long term investment.




> Also, it doesn't seem to be popular writers interested on Dick at the moment. Didio and others will probably allow a popular writer to take Nightwing if these writers are interested.


Who knows? Impossible to tell from this side of things. But for many years big name writers weren't allowed to write Superman (reportedly), so if there's a ban on major talent handling Nightwing I wouldn't be surprised at all.

----------


## Godlike13

Good creators are most likely running from his book right now. It’s editors have created an unstable and undesirable situation with the book and character. Thats not gonna attract talent. Who would want to take over a book you can’t write what you want to write, has no support, and would have to inherit a direction that has been met with nothing but mockery and disdain.

----------


## Konja7

> Of course it'd survive with mediocre writers. What do you think is happening right now? Nightwing has had a long string of short runs and bad talent (with a few highlights here and there, admittedly) and is still one of DC's most consistent books; outselling most of the DCU that isn't Justice League. The fact that it sells so well even when it's utterly terrible is exactly why we have this problem in the first place. Well, that and possibly managerial bias.


Oh, I know it would sell good even with a mediocre writer.

I mentioned this part, because I don't know if Dick as spy would the right direction, especially since Nightwing will probably only get a mediocre writer.

----------


## Ascended

> Oh, I know it would sell good even with a mediocre writer.
> 
> I mentioned this part, because I don't know if Dick as spy would the right direction, especially since Nightwing will probably only get a mediocre writer.


I have no idea if it would work as a direction or not. But I doubt it'd be any worse than what we've already seen. I think the fact that sales held steady when the book didn't have any brand recognition as "Grayson" tells us that there's some degree of interest, and sales would possibly increase if that status quo was mixed with the brand power of the Nightwing name and costume (he's no Superman but Nightwing does have decent brand recognition). But that's just guess work from a dude who doesn't have any hard data and only a basic understanding of how this particular industry works.  :Smile: 

@Godlike: Well, problems are (almost) never one-sided, so I'd believe that DC keeps top talent away from Nightwing, and DC's attitude towards the book keeps the top talent away anyway. 

Whether any top talent would want the book even in the best of times, I have no idea. When doing interviews, the creators on the book always have to say nice things so you can't count that. I've heard a few creators mention being big fans of Dick Grayson when they're not pushing their work on him (so they're probably being honest) but who knows how many fans Nightwing has among the pro's?

----------


## Arsenal

> Good creators are most likely running from his book right now. It’s editors have created an unstable and undesirable situation with the book and character. Thats not gonna attract talent. Who would want to take over a book you can’t write what you want to write, has no support, and would have to inherit a direction that has been ment with nothing but mockery and distain.


Assuming DC agrees to allow the talent write what they want to write (to a reasonable extent), taking over the book immediately after he regains his memories (again, assuming that's when the switch happens) basically gives them a clean slate to work with. That's really not that bad of a starting point, especially for a character like Dick who could really use it.

----------


## yohyoi

Could you imagine if we didn't have Titans and Young Justice while we are experiencing the Ric era? I would probably stop reading and getting updated on comic books for a year. I'm only staying updated right now because of the tv shows.

I'm not optimistic with the Nightwing series. It is turning into a toxic property and writers avoid that. Those who dream of Grayson will only get dreams. It was just luck. Writers are now avoiding Dick or Ric after the Percy fiasco. It is for the best it to be cancelled and be brought back a few years when the brand is less toxic and DC has a new direction. Simply my opinion on this matter.

----------


## yohyoi

> Good creators are most likely running from his book right now. It’s editors have created an unstable and undesirable situation with the book and character. Thats not gonna attract talent. Who would want to take over a book you can’t write what you want to write, has no support, and would have to inherit a direction that has been ment with nothing but mockery and distain.


There is no interest on the character on the comic-side. No writer wants to write him right now. Nightwing is a guinea pig for weird ideas. It's like a New Age of Heroes book in a sense. An experiment by editorial and DiDio. I won't write him now since Nightwing has dug itself into a hole. No writer wants that even the most devoted fan.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> There is no interest on the character on the comic-side. No writer wants to write him right now. Nightwing is a guinea pig for weird ideas. It's like a New Age of Heroes book in a sense. An experiment by editorial and DiDio. I won't write him now since Nightwing has dug itself into a hole. No writer wants that even the most devoted fan.


Why can't Didio just leave him alone？I really don't get it.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Why can't Didio just leave him alone？I really don't get it.


Because Dick makes Bruce "look old" and Didio has said he hates Dick and that generation.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Because Dick makes Bruce "look old" and Didio has said he hates Dick and that generation.


Yeah I know he hates Dick. But why can't Didio just put Dick in a petty corner of DCU and dont even bother to give a glimpse at the boy？TBH that would be a bliss for both sides: him and Nightwing fans.

----------


## WonderNight

> Could you imagine if we didn't have Titans and Young Justice while we are experiencing the Ric era? I would probably stop reading and getting updated on comic books for a year. I'm only staying updated right now because of the tv shows.
> 
> I'm not optimistic with the Nightwing series. It is turning into a toxic property and writers avoid that. Those who dream of Grayson will only get dreams. It was just luck. Writers are now avoiding Dick or Ric after the Percy fiasco. It is for the best it to be cancelled and be brought back a few years when the brand is less toxic and DC has a new direction. Simply my opinion on this matter.


I agree cancel the book until you have a direction and creative team. 

Thank God for the DC streaming service because good God I'm done with nightwing in the comic. Until DC starts to care why should I.

 I like that YJ maybe the most popular version of nightwing. Because some people say that nightwing as a superspy may not work (but how has batman lite been working for him since dixon?) But with YJ nightwing is not being shown fighting street level thugs in bludhevan. NO! He's globetrotting around the world on covert ops espionage missions with others of DC while working for/with the JL. But yeah nightwing doesn't work as a superspy  :Confused: .

Dick in YJ is basically grayson but instead of agent 37 he's nightwing and instead of spyral it's the JL.

But as far as the current comics just cancel nightwing and send him over to wonder woman and replace Steve trevor :Wink: . He's got nothing better  :Cool: .

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Yeah I know he hates Dick. But why can't Didio just put Dick in a petty corner of DCU and dont even bother to give a glimpse at the boy？TBH that would be a bliss for both sides: him and Nightwing fans.


Because some Batman/Justice League Event needs a emotional connection to sacrifice for a couple of issues and hand off to the story to a writer who now has to create a story off of something they did not include. Seriously the Justice League should be in their own world and the Titans/JSA/Legion in Otherworlds that accommodates their stories

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Because some Batman/Justice League Event needs a emotional connection to sacrifice for a couple of issues and hand off to the story to a writer who now has to create a story off of something they did not include. Seriously the Justice League should be in their own world and the Titans/JSA/Legion in Otherworlds that accommodates their stories


I actually liked Percy's pitch but they even didn't let him go with the vertigo issue plot. Now I really have no idea what DC wants for Dick Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> I actually liked Percy's pitch but they even didn't let him go with the vertigo issue plot. Now I really have no idea what DC wants for Dick Grayson.


Uh, to disappear forever?

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah I know he hates Dick. But why can't Didio just put Dick in a petty corner of DCU and dont even bother to give a glimpse at the boy？TBH that would be a bliss for both sides: him and Nightwing fans.


It's because other writers want to use Dick as "sacrifice" to affect Batman. 

The idea of the shot was from Tom King. He let the consequences of this to Nightwing comic (althogh Tom King has an idea that Dick should learn everything again, while Tim would take his place as Nightwing). 

Tom King also said that he offered the option to DC that they could override all effects of the shot with magic in the next issue, but DC preferred to continue with the story of the shot.


To be fair, I don't think Didio intentionally wants to sabotage Nightwing comic (it's a book with good sales).

The disinterest of DC in Dick is what is causing all these problems. The writers only show interest in the character to use it as a "sacrifice" for Batman, but they do not show plans to develop it.

----------


## byrd156

It's getting hilarious at this point. 

https://www.dccomics.com/comics/titans-2016/titans-30

----------


## Badou

Probably the only positive thing to come from all this was Dick getting dropped from the Titans book and Abnett's writing, but that cover is hilarious. 

Seeing that cover makes me wish DC would do a Wally and Dick series. Give it to a writer and just let them do whatever they want. Call it Worlds Finest, Red and Blue, or whatever and let a writer like maybe Seeley have fun doing what he wants with the two of them. No bs from Batman, the Justice League, or Titans to mess with and it is the two of them going on some crazy adventures, solving some bizarre cases, throw some personal life stuff in occasionally and it would be great. Guess I can make a pitch for it in that in the other Nightwing thread.

----------


## Restingvoice

Well... at least she doesn't dress like trash anymore and the cover with her forcing Joker face to Ric seems to signify a plot about identity, which fits the overall theme

2018-11-09-600x910.jpg

That's about the only good thing I can say about this. Moving on...

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Uh, to disappear forever?


Ha!They are not approaching the target in the most subtle way, are they？

----------


## Badou

> Well... at least she doesn't dress like trash anymore and the cover with her forcing Joker face to Ric seems to signify a plot about identity, which fits the overall theme
> 
> That's about the only good thing I can say about this. Moving on...


The decision to use a truly awful character in Joker's Daughter probably went like...

Lobdell: You know what Ric needs? His own Joker. That is what the character has been missing. 

DC Editorial: Brilliant idea! Who should be his Joker?

Lobdell: I really like the Joker Daughter's character and I've written her a lot before. 

DC Editorial: You mean that character that ran around with a rotting Joker face attached to her own face that you seemingly killed off in your Red Hood run that no one cared about?

Lobdell: The one and only!

DC Editorial: Sounds great! No way his fans can complain if he gets his own Joker!


Lobdell has his defenders, which are a large portion of Jason fans given he treats the character very well, and many people said he wasn't as bad since his horrible New 52 run, that he was actually good, but this has been a big step down in quality since Percy's #50. The past 2 issues have progressively gotten worse. If you want to excuse it as this not being Lobdell's story and he is just doing editorial's bidding on short notice that's fine, but there has been enough time now where Lobdell is able to tell his own story and Joker's Daughter is the direction he decided to go in. I really don't understand it. I can only explain it as he knows the book will be cancelled sometime next year and he won't be returning to it, so DC is just letting him do whatever he wants and for some dumb reason he has a fascination with Joker's daughter and is using his Nightwing run to use her more than doing anything actually interesting with Dick's character.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> It's because other writers want to use Dick as "sacrifice" to affect Batman. 
> 
> The idea of the shot was from Tom King. He let the consequences of this to Nightwing comic (althogh Tom King has an idea that Dick should learn everything again, while Tim would take his place as Nightwing). 
> 
> Tom King also said that he offered the option to DC that they could override all effects of the shot with magic in the next issue, but DC preferred to continue with the story of the shot.
> 
> 
> To be fair, I don't think Didio intentionally wants to sabotage Nightwing comic (it's a book with good sales).
> 
> The disinterest of DC in Dick is what is causing all these problems. The writers only show interest in the character to use it as a "sacrifice" for Batman, but they do not show plans to develop it.


If DC really had no interest in Dick they would allow the Nightwing writer to do whatever he wanted instead of abruptly interrupted and changed the direction again and again. TK could have restored everything in the next issue then Percy could go on with his original storyline but DC decided to go with the shot; Percy accepted the shot plot and would have written about Nightwing's vertigo issue but DC forced the amnesia. So much editorial mandate enforced on this book. I still hold the opinion that the one who forced the amnesia direction should write Nightwing after Percy left.

----------


## dietrich

> Well... at least she doesn't dress like trash anymore and the cover with her forcing Joker face to Ric seems to signify a plot about identity, which fits the overall theme
> 
> 2018-11-09-600x910.jpg
> 
> That's about the only good thing I can say about this. Moving on...


Isn't that like her whole one shtick. How many Robins are going to toy with the Joker identity. Where the hell did she even dig up that rotting manky face from?. Someone should tell Duella and Scott that Joker has his face back [all 3 of them] this is so over and done. The fact that this the way Lobdell decides to explore Dick's identity [if that is what he is doing] is not encouraging.

Batman is getting trashed, Superman is getting trashed at least Dick is in good company.

This whole thing is so cringe.

----------


## dietrich

> If DC really had no interest in Dick they would allow the Nightwing writer to do whatever he wanted instead of abruptly interrupted and changed the direction again and again. TK could have restored everything in the next issue then Percy could go on with his original storyline but DC decided to go with the shot; Percy accepted the shot plot and would have written about Nightwing's vertigo issue but DC forced the amnesia. So much editorial mandate enforced on this book. I still hold the opinion that the one who forced the amnesia direction should write Nightwing after Percy left.


I don't think it's a case of no interest more a case of mishandling. They are interested just they don't treat him how a character of his calibre ought to be treated.

I was looking forward to Percy's Vertigo arc. That seemed a much better angle for exploring Nightwing than loss of memory. Dick being a detective. Using his brains more to compensate for the sudden his short comings.

----------


## byrd156

How do we go from this?



To this? Seriously, who wants this?

----------


## dietrich

> How do we go from this?
> 
> 
> 
> To this? Seriously, who wants this?


Because egdy and kewl.

----------


## yohyoi

Lobdell gonna ship Ric with her. RHatO Rebirth was a fluke. Lobdell is still DC's worst writer. One good series does not make his dozen bad series disappear.

----------


## byrd156

If DC wanted to do that dumb multiple Harley's idea you could easily have Duela be one that got away and is struggling with her sanity. A bit like a younger creeper. Exploring that would be a much better avenue to take than resurrecting the cut off face angle. Seriously shouldn't that have rotted away by now.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I really hope that's her own face because man would I feel bad for Dick (sorry, Ric) if he had to deal with having the several-years-old face of the Joker hanging around his nose.

----------


## oasis1313

> If DC really had no interest in Dick they would allow the Nightwing writer to do whatever he wanted instead of abruptly interrupted and changed the direction again and again. TK could have restored everything in the next issue then Percy could go on with his original storyline but DC decided to go with the shot; Percy accepted the shot plot and would have written about Nightwing's vertigo issue but DC forced the amnesia. So much editorial mandate enforced on this book. I still hold the opinion that the one who forced the amnesia direction should write Nightwing after Percy left.


That would mean Dan Didio would be writing the Nightwing book.  Give me Lobdell any day.

----------


## Konja7

> That would mean Dan Didio would be writing the Nightwing book.  Give me Lobdell any day.


I don't remember if it was said Didio has the idea of the amnesia.

As Tom King write about the shot for Nightwing, he should develop the consequences for Nightwing. 


I understand why DC doesn't want to quickly get rid of the consequences of the shot with magic, because they couldn't capitalize with the event. Of course, the amnesia is terrible, but it's more profitable for now.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't remember if it was said Didio has the idea of the amnesia.
> 
> As Tom King write about the shot for Nightwing, he should develop the consequences for Nightwing. 
> 
> 
> I understand why DC doesn't want to quickly get rid of the consequences of the shot with magic, because they couldn't capitalize with the event. Of course, the amnesia is terrible, but it's more profitable for now.


Didio might be a better writer for Nightwing than Tom King.  Since King was all about ONE panel in Batman #50, I don't think we can trust him now.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Didio might be a better writer for Nightwing than Tom King.  Since King was all about ONE panel in Batman #50, I don't think we can trust him now.


DiDio would probably have "Ric's" head get blown off in the next chapter. Permanently.

----------


## Pohzee

Given that Grayson was Didio's idea, I'd be curious to see what he'd do with Nightwing to make him not hate him.

I'd take that over what we've gotten over the past two years.

----------


## Rac7d*

> DiDio would probably have "Ric's" head get blown off in the next chapter. Permanently.


I think I would rather he died and be safe then written horribly

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm reading Batman The Golden Age Volume 2 and this is apparently the first time Batman's faced with dead Robin

BatRob.jpg

He didn't even check, he just assumed he's dead after seeing him bludgeoned horribly, then after Dick moaned and alerted Batman he's still alive, he threatened some random doctor to help him and stormed the hideout of the mob responsible without bulletproof vest, taking 3 shots, forced a confession, handed them to the police, where they noticed that's the scariest Batman ever looked, before going back to the doctor and only fainted after hearing that Dick's going to be fine.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That would mean Dan Didio would be writing the Nightwing book.  Give me Lobdell any day.


Well, Dan Didio is already the ghost writer then. What is worse than Didio？Didio plus Lobdell！

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Given that Grayson was Didio's idea, I'd be curious to see what he'd do with Nightwing to make him not hate him.
> 
> I'd take that over what we've gotten over the past two years.


The amnesia thing was highly likely to be Didio's idea. 
1)Based on the information we've got，it was enforced from the higher-up of DC
2)It almost led to the same situation as in Grayson: Dick was isolated, being more violent than he would be(that was the super spy direction supposed to be like but SeeKing saved Grayson),and all of his relationships among the DCU were gone.

----------


## oasis1313

> The amnesia thing was highly likely to be Didio's idea. 
> 1)Based on the information we've got，it was enforced from the higher-up of DC
> 2)It almost led to the same situation as in Grayson: Dick was isolated, being more violent than he would be(that was the super spy direction supposed to be like but SeeKing saved Grayson),and all of his relationships among the DCU were gone.


I never understand why the goal is always to isolate Dick Grayson and remove him from everything that's happening elsewhere (unless he's the Designated Sacrificial Lamb).  What's he going to do--get cooties on Superman?

----------


## Godlike13

There doesn’t seem to be even that much forward thought or plan with this, devious or otherwise. King wanted to shoot him in the head, and the Bat office thought they could run with it. But they struggled to even walk with it and so they produced this embarrassment. This seems more on the Bat office and Nightwing’s current editors then Didio.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

The Bat Office are the ones who have been trying to isolate Dick Grayson since the got him in the 90s but Titans has good Word of mouth and will hit Netflix internationally soon. All Dick will ever be is Batman # 2 in the Bat Office and to use him in a story involving Batman at this point it 100 % expected they will take a No. 2 on his life and leave a writer to deal with the consequences. After Percy you wont find current talent to write his book because whats the point? Dick has been given the path of being a replacement Batman and after two stints no one want to write DickBats, Nightwing is stuck in Bludhaven & Tom King still has 40 issues to finish his story which has not and will not use the Bat Family for anything but cannon fodder

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> There doesnt seem to be even that much forward thought or plan with this, devious or otherwise. King wanted to shoot him in the head, and the Bat office thought they could run with it. But they struggled to even walk with it and so they produced this embarrassment. This seems more on the Bat office and Nightwings current editors then Didio.


But Percy's pitch was approved by the Bat office. Remember the original preview of Nightwing #49 and #50？They abruptly changed everything to impose the amnesia story.

----------


## Godlike13

Yet Didio thought Percy was still writing the book when he talked about Heroes In Crisis and Nightwing. This stuff is tasked to offices and their editors.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I never understand why the goal is always to isolate Dick Grayson and remove him from everything that's happening elsewhere (unless he's the Designated Sacrificial Lamb).  What's he going to do--get cooties on Superman?


1)Didio hates him and can't stand Dick Grayson has more exposure.
2)Bat office is wary of any risks that will push Dick further away from the Batman franchise and make him closer to the Titans
3)writers in other offices have no interest to use another Bat character. They are desperately trying to keep their independence from Batman's shadow. And if they have to use a Bat, of course they will pick THE Bat.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Yet Didio thought Percy was still writing the book when he talked about Heroes In Crisis and Nightwing. This stuff is tasked to offices and their editors.


Then why did the editors intervene a story they already approved？

----------


## Godlike13

My best guess, and I’m just guessing, King went to his editors with shooting Dick and they wanted to run with it. Percy not so much, as he came on to do his Dark Web story, but still he came up with something. Later other opportunities open for him and so he walked. Leaving them to have to come up with something fast and dirty.

Quite frankly the management on the book has been struggling to put and keep anything together since Seeley wanted out. So it seems rather plausible to me that they would struggle to put a this half cooked idea together like this, drive a creator away, and leave us with this half assed mess dependent on old vets who can quickly come up with something.

----------


## oasis1313

There is more talent out there than just The Old Boys' Network.  There are literally thousands of hungry young writers at any of the major cons.  The companies should be scouting for talent.  There has got to be a hither-unknown talent who would be HONORED to write Nightwing.  Hell, they'd probably write it for free just to break into the biz.

----------


## WonderNight

> The Bat Office are the ones who have been trying to isolate Dick Grayson since the got him in the 90’s but Titans has good Word of mouth and will hit Netflix internationally soon. All Dick will ever be is Batman # 2 in the Bat Office and to use him in a story involving Batman at this point it 100 % expected they will take a No. 2 on his life and leave a writer to deal with the consequences. After Percy you won’t find current talent to write his book because what’s the point? Dick has been given the path of being a replacement Batman and after two stints no one want to write DickBats, Nightwing is stuck in Bludhaven & Tom King still has 40 issues to finish his story which has not and will not use the Bat Family for anything but cannon fodder


This is exactly what I've been saying. As long nightwing is under the bat office this is as good as its going to get for dick.but people just love them some batfam, dick cant leave daddy and go be his own man. At best we'll get mediorce mini batman and now it looks like dicks generation is getting new52'd again so good by greater dcu.

As a solo, Ric is more his own man than Dick :Frown: .

----------


## Godlike13

If Ric wasn’t Dick no one would give two craps about him or his boring hobo life. He’s far from his own man. He’s a pathetic and uninteresting shell of a another character people like.

----------


## Rac7d*

> This is exactly what I've been saying. As long nightwing is under the bat office this is as good as its going to get for dick.but people just love them some batfam, dick cant leave daddy and go be his own man. At best we'll get mediorce mini batman and now it looks like dicks generation is getting new52'd again so good by greater dcu.
> 
> As a solo, Ric is more his own man than Dick.


Becasue batman doesnt seem to care if Dick remembers who he is

but batgirl does and this is real sad

----------


## Ascended

> This is exactly what I've been saying. As long nightwing is under the bat office this is as good as its going to get for dick.


I feel like it's quite the "rock and a hard place" situation. The ties to Batman are beneficial on a lot of levels; Bats is one of the biggest properties on the planet, from any genre or format. It benefits Nightwing to have ties there. But it also limits him, especially when the Bat office is of the opinion that Dick is just another sidekick and his narrative can and should be bent to further Batman's. The editors seem to consider Dick no more important than Duke (sorry Duke fans) and that's a total load of BS.

What we need is for Nightwing to be treated like Supergirl. Kara's part of the Super family, but she's off on her own, doing her thing, and only occasionally meets up with her more famous cousin. Kara rarely gets the short end to make Clark look better, rarely interacts with Clark at all, and stands almost completely on her own, outside of a shared backstory and logo.

----------


## Godlike13

Baby steps, at this point I’ll take just them using someone else as the resident prop and fodder. And honestly I’m not even sure if this a Bat relations problem, because the Titans did the same crap.

----------


## yohyoi

Talking about Nightwing right now is kinda pointless since DC isn't invested. Ric is a generic edgelord anyway. He is not the same character.

----------


## oasis1313

> Talking about Nightwing right now is kinda pointless since DC isn't invested. Ric is a generic edgelord anyway. He is not the same character.


What is an edgelord?

----------


## Jackalope89

> What is an edgelord?


Jason Todd without his smart-ass sense of humor and angry. King's Batman/Heroes in Crisis.

----------


## Badou

I don't get why people are acting like the Titans is how you save him. That him being more a Titan and less of a Batman character will be any better for the character. This isn't the 80s. Have people read any Titans stories in the last few decades? Seen how irrelevant the Titans have been? Or how much they are used as fodder for the JL? You want to remove him from a franchise where at least DC cares about it to one that they don't care at all and is probably more overcrowded than the Batman franchise. 

As bad as this Ric Grayson story is I'd argue that it is still better than what Abnett did to the character. The Ric story was just a cash grab to increase sales by jumping on what happened in the Batman book, but what Abnett did in Titans was what he actually thought of the character and thought he was writing the character well and DC supported that by even bringing Abnett back. It remains maybe one of the worst depictions of Dick's character I have ever read in anything and I don't understand why people think the Titans franchise will be what saves him or will make him better.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't get why people are acting like the Titans is how you save him. That him being more a Titan and less of a Batman character will be any better for the character. This isn't the 80s. Have people read any Titans stories in the last few decades? Seen how irrelevant the Titans have been? Or how much they are used as fodder for the JL? You want to remove him from a franchise where at least DC cares about it to one that they don't care at all and is probably more overcrowded than the Batman franchise. 
> 
> As bad as this Ric Grayson story is I'd argue that it is still better than what Abnett did to the character. The Ric story was just a cash grab to increase sales by jumping on what happened in the Batman book, but what Abnett did in Titans was what he actually thought of the character and thought he was writing the character well and DC supported that by even bringing Abnett back. It remains maybe one of the worst depictions of Dick's character I have ever read in anything and I don't understand why people think the Titans franchise will be what saves him or will make him better.


Titans right now and Nightwing are equally as bad.

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans right now and Nightwing are equally as bad.


I'm not sure about that.  Abnett has proven he's serious about wiping his butt with his supposed showcase character.  Lobdell and Fabian had this dumped in their laps by King and Didio.  We know Abnett has rotten intentions; we don't know that about L + F.  Yet.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm not sure about that.  Abnett has proven he's serious about wiping his butt with his supposed showcase character.  Lobdell and Fabian had this dumped in their laps by King and Didio.  We know Abnett has rotten intentions; we don't know that about L + F.  Yet.


Intentions don't matter, execution does. Titans has been pretty bad for a long time now and honestly so has Nightwing.

----------


## josai21

Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.

----------


## oasis1313

> Intentions don't matter, execution does. Titans has been pretty bad for a long time now and honestly so has Nightwing.


Of course, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."  My point is that Abnett purposefully made Nightwing look like a schmuck, and proudly admits it.  Lobdell and Fabian didn't choose this direction for Dick--it was forced on them and very suddenly.  What I am saying is to give them a chance--IF you can see your way clear to do that, and only if you can stand it.  We're all going to have to make the individual decisions as to whether we're willing and able to financially support Nightwing when our stomachs are turning.  None of it is the character's fault, so I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place here.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.


I disagree, and find that to be a false choice. 

I think its more like, DC needs to accept that Batman's age/physical prowess are at their heart, ridiculous. The only thing more ridiculous is holding characters back because of it. 

Let him be 40 with the body of a 29 year old, its comics you can make it work (and literally just did in Snyder's run).

----------


## Konja7

> Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.


DC will probably think the same. 

However, they will never allow Batmam to grow old. That's why they won't allow Dick to flourish.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.


They have no incentive to do that though. Batman especially brings in the money, and the rest of them are more marketable, especially compared to the Titans who are not Dick and the NTT era crew (Vic, Kory, gar, Raven). 

It's also not the fault of that generation of characters that the next generation down can't get their shit together and struggle for relevance. If they need to get rid of another set of characters to flourish, they may not be that great or independent to being with. I want Donna Troy to get her crap sorted out, get better character writing and have a solid direction for once...but I am not even remotely interested in letting go of Wonder Woman to do it.

----------


## Ascended

> We're all going to have to make the individual decisions as to whether we're willing and able to financially support Nightwing when our stomachs are turning.  None of it is the character's fault, so I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place here.


I dropped the title ages ago. I bought a Nightwing t-shirt last month, the New Order trade before that, and I'll dump cash on other Nightwing related merchandise any day of the week, but I won't, under any circumstances, reward DC for this train wreck of a title. I do that, I'm telling them I think they're doing a good job. 

Way I see it, and this is just me, the only way we fans can do anything to save Nightwing's book is to stop buying it. People talk about how DC might sweep Dick under the rug and toss him in limbo (or kill him or whatever) if sales drop, but I don't think that's a real possibility. I mean, maybe for a short while, but not for long. Nightwing is too popular, has to loyal a following, for DC to get rid of him. I know Didio has talked about it in the past, but you notice how it never happened? That's because Nightwing is a profitable IP. Right now, DC puts zero effort into the character, screws him over on purpose, and he's still sells decently. He's more invulnerable than Superman. Because we keep buying this drivel. 

If we fans step up and tell DC, with our wallets, that we're sick of this sh*t? DC will have to do something about it because that's a pretty big chunk of money for them to lose out on. They might try throwing him into another stupid-ass direction like this "Ric" nonsense, but if we don't buy that either, they'll have to accept that we're only going to reward quality work from now on. And there's no doubt in my mind that DC is capable of making Nightwing a good book. If us fans can sit here on CBR and toss out excellent ideas for how to use and handle Nightwing, then the professionals should most certainly be capable.

Nightwing's a fairly big deal. Certainly not Bat big, but bigger than 90% of DC's properties. They can't afford to lose him for more than a short hiatus. But they're not going to give a damn while his book sells strongly for zero effort on their part.

----------


## Ascended

> Dick Grayson will never flourish until DC accepts that, in order to grow as a story tellling company...they have to let Batman's generation grow old and pass on.


I disagree. There's nothing wrong conceptually here. Nightwing doesn't have to become 35 years old to matter or hit the big time, neither do any of his peers. Is the DCU such a small place that there's nowhere for these young adults? No, of course it isn't. The only thing small at DC is the thinking of the people in charge.

We have business moguls under 30. We have people who have changed the whole world who are under 25. Why is it that Nightwing and the other heroes his age can't "matter," or get any TLC, just because their mentors are still alive and working? Is DC's management so f*cking old they've forgotten that a whole lot of people find great success early in life? 

There's nothing wrong with the structure of the DCU or its generations (well, Manhattan time shenanigans aside). The only problem is the small minded people calling the shots.

----------


## Konja7

> I dropped the title ages ago. I bought a Nightwing t-shirt last month, the New Order trade before that, and I'll dump cash on other Nightwing related merchandise any day of the week, but I won't, under any circumstances, reward DC for this train wreck of a title. I do that, I'm telling them I think they're doing a good job. 
> 
> Way I see it, and this is just me, the only way we fans can do anything to save Nightwing's book is to stop buying it. People talk about how DC might sweep Dick under the rug and toss him in limbo (or kill him or whatever) if sales drop, but I don't think that's a real possibility. I mean, maybe for a short while, but not for long. Nightwing is too popular, has to loyal a following, for DC to get rid of him. I know Didio has talked about it in the past, but you notice how it never happened? That's because Nightwing is a profitable IP. Right now, DC puts zero effort into the character, screws him over on purpose, and he's still sells decently. He's more invulnerable than Superman. Because we keep buying this drivel. 
> 
> If we fans step up and tell DC, with our wallets, that we're sick of this sh*t? DC will have to do something about it because that's a pretty big chunk of money for them to lose out on. They might try throwing him into another stupid-ass direction like this "Ric" nonsense, but if we don't buy that either, they'll have to accept that we're only going to reward quality work from now on. And there's no doubt in my mind that DC is capable of making Nightwing a good book. If us fans can sit here on CBR and toss out excellent ideas for how to use and handle Nightwing, then the professionals should most certainly be capable.
> 
> Nightwing's a fairly big deal. Certainly not Bat big, but bigger than 90% of DC's properties. They can't afford to lose him for more than a short hiatus. But they're not going to give a damn while his book sells strongly for zero effort on their part.


I partially agree, but not totally. Things do not necessarily go well for Dick if the sales fall. 

It is true that it is difficult for Dick to go to the limbo even if his comic fails. However, Dick still can lost his solo and DC send him to a team book (that way his presence will help more this comic).

----------


## Ascended

They might just throw him at a team title and leave it at that....but I doubt it. I think if Didio could, he would've done that already. The book is utter trash these days and issue 51 still moved over 35K. Not a lot of books can be that bad and still sell that well. The book has what, a 3.99 cover price? So that's about $140,000, before production costs. If it's a 2.99 cover, that's still over 104K.

That's not too damn bad for a book that gets no attention and bottom-of-the-barrel effort with creative talent that's *probably* on the lower end of the pay scales (just guessing about that last bit tho). 

And I don't think DC would put in a substitute title in Nightwing's place on the schedule either. Not a lot of properties can move units like that for the effort DC puts in. They might try, but it's very unlikely another title would have such a high sales floor with such half-assed effort. DC would have to get better creators to make as much in sales, and those better creators would probably get paid more, which means this hypothetical replacement isn't as profitable for DC. 

I wouldn't put it past Didio to do it anyway and lose out on that easy money just because of his dumbass personal bias, but I doubt his bosses at WB feel the same way. 

It could happen...I know business but I'm no expert and I don't work in publishing...I just don't think it would last very long. Didio's had it out for Nightwing for over a decade and failed to get rid of him. Dick's safe from limbo or being reduced to team-only status (I think and hope, anyway) he's just not safe from sh*t talent because he keeps selling anyway.

----------


## Konja7

> They might just throw him at a team title and leave it at that....but I doubt it. I think if Didio could, he would've done that already. The book is utter trash these days and issue 51 still moved over 35K. Not a lot of books can be that bad and still sell that well. The book has what, a 3.99 cover price? So that's about $140,000, before production costs. If it's a 2.99 cover, that's still over 104K.
> 
> That's not too damn bad for a book that gets no attention and bottom-of-the-barrel effort with creative talent that's *probably* on the lower end of the pay scales (just guessing about that last bit tho).


To be fair, Nightwing #51 has a foil cover, that's why its sales are so high. In October, many DC comics have foil covers, their sales increase a good amount. 

Nightwing #50 has so good sales, because the tie-in with Batman.

----------


## Ascended

> To be fair, Nightwing #51 has a foil cover, that's why its sales are so high. In October, many DC comics have foil covers, their sales increase a good amount. 
> 
> Nightwing #50 has so good sales, because the tie-in with Batman.


Oh, I didn't know it had a foil cover. Yeah, that would change the numbers (and production cost). Still, the book is selling more than anything that isn't League related (or Harley Quinn), and is right on the heels of Aquaman and not too far off from Flash, I think. Not amazing numbers, but definitely solid, respectable ones. And that's the problem, when a book sells like that for nothing, what incentive does DC have to put in time and effort?

----------


## Konja7

I forgot to mention that Nightwing #50 is 3.99, while Nigtwing #51 is 2.99 (the foil cover is free). 





> Oh, I didn't know it had a foil cover. Yeah, that would change the numbers (and production cost). Still, the book is selling more than anything that isn't League related (or Harley Quinn), and is right on the heels of Aquaman and not too far off from Flash, I think. Not amazing numbers, but definitely solid, respectable ones. And that's the problem, when a book sells like that for nothing, what incentive does DC have to put in time and effort?


It's true. That's a big problem. 

It's worse when you consider that a really good comic like Grayson at the end sells higher, but not much higher (and its sales weren't stable). 

That just makes DC think that putting effort wouldn't change anything.

----------


## Ascended

Exactly. We all know Nightwing has a high sales floor, but they seem to think he has a low ceiling, meaning he'll sell about the same no matter what. And looking at the figures I can see why they'd think that. But I still disagree with the notion, heartily. I think there is strong potential for growth, if DC were willing to make the investment. It wouldn't happen overnight, but I honestly don't think it would take all that much to get Dick into a higher sales bracket.

One would expect that DC's management know their business far better than I do but when Didio wants to kill off one of their most popular and most consistent sellers just because he doesn't personally get the appeal, it forces me to question their judgement. I assume it's just Bat-blindness. 

And Grayson's sales dropped, but as far as I know that's just standard sales atrophy. Happens to every title. Now, whether Grayson saw a steeper drop than normal, I don't know.

----------


## Konja7

> And Grayson's sales dropped, but as far as I know that's just standard sales atrophy. Happens to every title. Now, whether Grayson saw a steeper drop than normal, I don't know.


The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.

I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:

GRAYSON #9   39,610 
GRAYSON #10 33,990
GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant) 
GRAYSON #12 32,284
GRAYSON #13 32,260
GRAYSON #14 31,831
GRAYSON #15 35,765 (Robin War crossover) 
GRAYSON #16 30,420
GRAYSON #17 30,257
GRAYSON #18 33,550 (Fade variant) 
GRAYSON #19 27,378
GRAYSON #20 23,762

The last two months had a stronger fall, but it's likely because Grayson was ending.

----------


## oasis1313

> The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.
> 
> I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:
> 
> GRAYSON #9   39,610 
> GRAYSON #10 33,990
> GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant) 
> GRAYSON #12 32,284
> GRAYSON #13 32,260
> ...


The last few months of Grayson were getting pretty confusing for me.

----------


## Badou

> The sales for Grayson weren't bad at all and its drops weren't big. That said, its sales were falling little by little.
> 
> I put the numbers of Grayson after Convergence:
> 
> GRAYSON #9   39,610 
> GRAYSON #10 33,990
> GRAYSON #11 36,538 (Bombshell variant) 
> GRAYSON #12 32,284
> GRAYSON #13 32,260
> ...


Last few issues the creative team left and they had fill in creators to close out the series while Seeley, King and Janin worked on their Rebirth books. Don't even think they were credited anymore on the book after #17. Such a shame that is how the series had to end.

----------


## oasis1313

It's part of the continuing problem Dick has been having over the past few years.  The rugs are no sooner put under him than they're pulled out.  I had thought the museum curator idea from a few years back was a great idea that gave Dick a home base in addition to providing opportunities for traveling, but it lasted about as long as the most recent Titans notion.  It seems to me like DC does no planning except for Big Crossover Events.

----------


## Konja7

> Last few issues the creative team left and they had fill in creators to close out the series while Seeley, King and Janin worked on their Rebirth books. Don't even think they were credited anymore on the book after #17. Such a shame that is how the series had to end.


You're right.18,19 and 20 have a different creative team. I've always though there was something weird with the strong fall on 19 and 20 (the previous issues were falling, but these last issues has stronger falls). 

As you said, it's a shame that the series ended in this way.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

In 58 issues the Bat Family has done nothing of Value beyond being used for nostalgia or victims, I doubt King is gonna Change on a dime and have them act like functional people because there is an obsession with showing how great Batman is by showing how bad the Bat Family is as if this is logical but Batman is Batgod and a God can not have equals or people somewhat as competent as he is. King has 42 issues to resolve his Bane Plot, Marriage Plot, etc. If King already had the authority to shoot Dick in the head & Have DC decide what to do and have this imposed on the writer the Nightwing Comic Book should be renamed Batman’s Sidekick Nightwing since without the Titans (especially under Abnett) and all these teased events coming up I see no reason why Dick Grayson is not going to become a Plot Point to bend to Batman’s will whenever need be. Red Hood has his writer who may stay on for the next 5 years, Red Robin/Robin has Bendis, Supersons could probably continue but Damian is in a similar situation that works mostly in his favor as he can travel across the entire galaxy and no one will say anything but dare Nightwing step foot in Skartaris people are going to complain or DC would just strait up reject the story.

----------


## Restingvoice

Marcus To

Dr_o7lrVAAEKsgi.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

Marcus To artwork is so pretty!

----------


## oasis1313

> In 58 issues the Bat Family has done nothing of Value beyond being used for nostalgia or victims, I doubt King is gonna Change on a dime and have them act like functional people because there is an obsession with showing how great Batman is by showing how bad the Bat Family is as if this is logical but Batman is Batgod and a God can not have equals or people somewhat as competent as he is. King has 42 issues to resolve his Bane Plot, Marriage Plot, etc. If King already had the authority to shoot Dick in the head & Have DC decide what to do and have this imposed on the writer the Nightwing Comic Book should be renamed Batman’s Sidekick Nightwing since without the Titans (especially under Abnett) and all these teased events coming up I see no reason why Dick Grayson is not going to become a Plot Point to bend to Batman’s will whenever need be. Red Hood has his writer who may stay on for the next 5 years, Red Robin/Robin has Bendis, Supersons could probably continue but Damian is in a similar situation that works mostly in his favor as he can travel across the entire galaxy and no one will say anything but dare Nightwing step foot in Skartaris people are going to complain or DC would just strait up reject the story.


It's what happens when the Publisher hates a character.  Does he hates anyone else this bad?

----------


## Konja7

> It's what happens when the Publisher hates a character.  Does he hates anyone else this bad?


Depending on who you ask, Didio could hate all the characters outside of Justice League (and Harley Quinn).

Honestly, I don't think the problems of Dick are because of hate from editorial or Didio. Dick problems seems more due to little faith in the character and bad decisions from DC.


I mean they continue the story of the shot to benefit the sales of Nightwing comic with its connection with Batman. Of course, the idea of the amnesia is terrible, but I think it was bad planning (not a harmful intention).

----------


## oasis1313

> Depending on who you ask, Didio could hate all the characters outside of Justice League (and Harley Quinn).
> 
> Honestly, I don't think the problems of Dick are because of hate from editorial or Didio. Dick problems seems more due to little faith in the character and bad decisions from DC.
> 
> I mean they continue the story of the shot to benefit the sales of Nightwing comic with its connection with Batman. Of course, the idea of the amnesia is terrible, but I think it was bad planning (not a harmful intention).


Okay, if Didio doesn't hate Grayson, let's see Timmy Wimmy be the Crossover Sacrificial Lamb, for a change of pace.  I'm sure that even if KGBees used a high-calibre hollow-point copper-jacketed rifle bullet and shot Timmy's itty bitty widdle head right off his pencil neck and into the sewer where it belongs, he'd still be written as smarter than the rest of the DC Universe put together.

----------


## Celgress

> Marcus To
> 
> Dr_o7lrVAAEKsgi.jpg


Aw, how sweet.  :Embarrassment:

----------


## oasis1313

> Aw, how sweet.


Barbara never figures out how lucky she is.

----------


## Celgress

> Barbara never figures out how lucky she is.


Sadly, this is true...

----------


## Konja7

> Barbara never figures out how lucky she is.


Well, her luck with Dick depends of the story. I mean she isn't so lucky in Nightwing Annual 2 (2007).

----------


## Konja7

> Okay, if Didio doesn't hate Grayson, let's see Timmy Wimmy be the Crossover Sacrificial Lamb, for a change of pace.  I'm sure that even if KGBees used a high-calibre hollow-point copper-jacketed rifle bullet and shot Timmy's itty bitty widdle head right off his pencil neck and into the sewer where it belongs, he'd still be written as smarter than the rest of the DC Universe put together.


If a writer wants to shot Tim to develop Batman, I suspect Didio will allow this. However, so far, writers think Dick is more effective. 

I don't think Didio has some good feelings for Tim. Young Justice comic is idea of Bendis, it wasn't other plans before this. 


I know you think Didio was a troll when he says that Tim is boring, but that would mean Didio is just a troll when he says he finds Dick unnecesary.

----------


## Starrius

> Well, her luck with Dick depends of the story. I mean she isn't so lucky in Nightwing Annual 2 (2007).


that thing is a poor retcon that I don't take seriously

----------


## Lazurus33

Nightwing #54 & #55

GalleryComics_1920x1080_20181205_Nightwing54_5be0d40b6c0cb7.78362563.jpgdc-Comics_Gallery_20181219__NW_Cv55_5bee282302a4b1.71487164.jpg

----------


## oasis1313

> If a writer wants to shot Tim to develop Batman, I suspect Didio will allow this. However, so far, writers think Dick is more effective. 
> 
> I don't think Didio has some good feelings for Tim. Young Justice comic is idea of Bendis, it wasn't other plans before this. 
> 
> 
> I know you think Didio was a troll when he says that Tim is boring, but that would mean Didio is just a troll when he says he finds Dick unnecesary.


Didio has been singing the same refrain about Dick Grayson for ages and ages; he hasn't particularly changed his tune in all these years.  Tim IS boring, but Didio likes him well enough to let Bendis have his way and not say, "No way, Bri.  Damian Wayne is Robin now."    If I was in Didio's position,  I'd let Bendis go find himself another gig then I'd open the door for submissions and hire myself a couple of dozen young and hungry writers even better than Bendis.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> GalleryComics_1920x1080_20181205_Nightwing54_5be0d40b6c0cb7.78362563.jpgdc-Comics_Gallery_20181219__NW_Cv55_5bee282302a4b1.71487164.jpg


Looks like Cabbie Ric goes moonlighting as a security guard in a cornfield.  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Konja7

> Didio has been singing the same refrain about Dick Grayson for ages and ages; he hasn't particularly changed his tune in all these years.  Tim IS boring, but Didio likes him well enough to let Bendis have his way and not say, "No way, Bri.  Damian Wayne is Robin now."    If I was in Didio's position,  I'd let Bendis go find himself another gig then I'd open the door for submissions and hire myself a couple of dozen young and hungry writers even better than Bendis.


The thing is the Young Justice is a profitable idea (at least, during a time), since it appeals the nostalgia. So, I'm not surprised Didio accepted this, regardless his (bad) feelings toward Tim. 

Following your logic, Didio should have stopped King and Seeley from taking Grayson. As Didio hates Dick so much, he should stop any good writer for Dick. 


You put a lot of hope on new young writers, but it's always a risk to go with a new young writer. We don't know if they would be good.

----------


## oasis1313

> The thing is the Young Justice is a profitable idea (at least, during a time), since it appeals the nostalgia. So, I'm not surprised Didio accepted this, regardless his (bad) feelings toward Tim. 
> 
> Following your logic, Didio should have stopped King and Seeley from taking Grayson. As Didio hates Dick so much, he should stop any good writer for Dick. 
> 
> 
> You put a lot of hope on new young writers, but it's always a risk to go with a new young writer. We don't know if they would be good.


It's true that it's a risk.  But the next generation of writers has to come from somewhere.  Bendis won't live forever; even Stan Lee couldn't (bless his soul).  I'd let them write inventory stories here and there, take their measure, bring them up and make them pay their dues.  A young writer might not be ready to start on a legacy property like Nightwing right out of Scott Snyder's creative writing class, but I'd resurrect the DC Showcase title to start greening them in.  I'd hire some Assistant Editors to go through submissions and see who's out there to be my next stable of star creators.

----------


## Jackalope89

> It's true that it's a risk.  But the next generation of writers has to come from somewhere.  Bendis won't live forever; even Stan Lee couldn't (bless his soul).  I'd let them write inventory stories here and there, take their measure, bring them up and make them pay their dues.  A young writer might not be ready to start on a legacy property like Nightwing right out of Scott Snyder's creative writing class, but I'd resurrect the DC Showcase title to start greening them in.  I'd hire some Assistant Editors to go through submissions and see who's out there to be my next stable of star creators.


They could also look into independent artists out there, like Yale Stewart (creator of JL8 webcomic).

----------


## Restingvoice

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> Attachment 73826Attachment 73827


Six issues are the standard for an arc, so let's see how it goes from there. There are no foil covers beyond #51 right?

----------


## WonderNight

> In 58 issues the Bat Family has done nothing of Value beyond being used for nostalgia or victims, I doubt King is gonna Change on a dime and have them act like functional people because there is an obsession with showing how great Batman is by showing how bad the Bat Family is as if this is logical but Batman is Batgod and a God can not have equals or people somewhat as competent as he is. King has 42 issues to resolve his Bane Plot, Marriage Plot, etc. If King already had the authority to shoot Dick in the head & Have DC decide what to do and have this imposed on the writer the Nightwing Comic Book should be renamed Batmans Sidekick Nightwing since without the Titans (especially under Abnett) and all these teased events coming up I see no reason why Dick Grayson is not going to become a Plot Point to bend to Batmans will whenever need be. Red Hood has his writer who may stay on for the next 5 years, Red Robin/Robin has Bendis, Supersons could probably continue but Damian is in a similar situation that works mostly in his favor as he can travel across the entire galaxy and no one will say anything but dare Nightwing step foot in Skartaris people are going to complain or DC would just strait up reject the story.


The nightwing book is already the Batman's sidekick book. Just look at who's logo is on the book  :Frown: .

----------


## Restingvoice

Kevin Wada was commissioned to draw David Bowie Nightwing

DrreFWsW4AAzdGF.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

this new episode really summarizes the shit dick has to take from bruce
as well as how anything he builds is destoyed

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> Attachment 73826Attachment 73827


I want Dick Grayson and his hair back.

----------


## Godlike13

Looks boring. Ugly and just generic. At what point are they even gonna pretend to try to make this new direction look interesting or appealing. Instead of generic trash they don’t seem to want to put any creative effort towards.

Anyway the latest Titans ep was cool. The acid bullets and villain were a bit silly, but I like where his character is going. Also the tracker scene was funny.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

> Looks boring. Ugly and just generic. At what point are they even gonna pretend to try to make this new direction look interesting or appealing. Instead of generic trash they don’t seem to want to put any creative effort towards.
> 
> Anyway the latest Titans ep was cool. The acid bullets and villain were a bit silly, but I like where his character is going. Also the tracker scene was funny.


Anyone else see that bit as an angst landmine? 

Feel like Jason is going to have some friction with Bruce at some point, and due to Dick's influence he removes the tracker, then he gets Joker'd. Kind of hope they don't go that route but it would certainly be dramatic.

----------


## Godlike13

Well I think they are clearly planting seeds for Red Hood with Jason.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Anyone else see that bit as an angst landmine? 
> 
> Feel like Jason is going to have some friction with Bruce at some point, and due to Dick's influence he removes the tracker, then he gets Joker'd. Kind of hope they don't go that route but it would certainly be dramatic.


I don't think we will see Jason again, next time we here about him, it when he dies, Dicks gonna blame himself of course but time wise I cant see Jason coming back until season 3 and then it would be as redhood.

----------


## WhipWhirlwind

Oh yeah, just saying Jason cutting out the tracker like Dick did could lead to a scene where Batman can't find him when it happens, leading to him potentially blaming Dick.

----------


## Rac7d*

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> Attachment 73826Attachment 73827


How long is this shit gonna last and Bruce not give a danm

----------


## Arsenal

> I don't think we will see Jason again, next time we here about him, it when he dies, Dicks gonna blame himself of course but time wise I cant see Jason coming back until season 3 and then it would be as redhood.


I think we’ll see him a few more times so the audience gets invested in him than they’ll kill him off so Dick’s reaction to it feels more genuine

----------


## Vinsanity

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> Attachment 73826Attachment 73827


Feels like he gets over him being a hero and stuff after the affects of Scarecrow.

So then we will see him back in the mask. I wouldn't mind him keeping the same haircut for a while though (I know people don't)

----------


## babybats

> They could also look into independent artists out there, like Yale Stewart (creator of JL8 webcomic).


I would LOVE it if Yale Stewart got to do his JL8 for real or anything of his own.

----------


## oasis1313

> The thing is the Young Justice is a profitable idea (at least, during a time), since it appeals the nostalgia. So, I'm not surprised Didio accepted this, regardless his (bad) feelings toward Tim. 
> 
> Following your logic, Didio should have stopped King and Seeley from taking Grayson. As Didio hates Dick so much, he should stop any good writer for Dick.


My logic is on target.  King, Seeley, and Janin weren't considered superstars when they signed on for Grayson.

----------


## Konja7

> My logic is on target.  King, Seeley, and Janin weren't considered superstars when they signed on for Grayson.


So, your logic is the next:

If Didio hates Tim, he wouldn't allow the superstar Bendis works on Young Justice with Tim (a profitable idea). Although it was Bendis idea to work with Young Justice and he has superstar power. 

However, Didio hates Dick, but he allowed the talented (not superstar) King, Seeley and Janin to take Grayson. Although they had not superstar power at that time, so it would be easier to stop them (and the other option was Tynion).

----------


## oasis1313

> So, your logic is the next:
> 
> If Didio hates Tim, he wouldn't allow the superstar Bendis works on Young Justice with Tim (a profitable idea). Although it was Bendis idea to work with Young Justice and he has superstar power. 
> 
> However, Didio hates Dick, but he allowed the talented (not superstar) King, Seeley and Janin to take Grayson. Although they had not superstar power at that time, so it would be easier to stop them (and the other option was Tynion).


The other option wasn't Tynion--he doesn't like the character and doesn't want to deal with him regardless.  Didio doesn't hate Tim; thus he indulged Tynion to write all the "love letters" he wanted as long as Defective sold enough copies--he probably wouldn't have cared whether he wanted to write Nightwing or not as long as he could keep Defective on schedule.  As far as Bendis goes, Didio is going to going to let The Big Superstar write anything he wants--he wouldn't stop him if he wanted to write Nightwing.  But he doesn't--Bendis wants to write Timmy Wimmy.  Therefore:  Dick, Jason, and Damian need to be edged away for Tim's Big Royal Re-Rollout so that the company can pander to The Big Superstar Ego with all the accompanying fanfare.  Bendis is a BIG DEAL, maybe rightly so.

----------


## yohyoi

Titans is really showing how great it is when Dick leaves the Bat family. I feel the comics should follow and make Dick be more to the Titans than the Bat family. The Bat family does not treat him as an equal to Bruce, but in the Titans he is the leader and the guy who holds it together. In the Bat family, he is either just the moral compass or the hostage to make Bruce mad. His Titans role fit Nightwing better.

----------


## yohyoi

But DC hates the Titans in the comics. So we the fans are still screwed.

----------


## Konja7

> The other option wasn't Tynion--he doesn't like the character.  Didio doesn't hate Tim; thus he indulged Tynion to write all the "love letters" he wanted as long as Defective sold enough copies.  As far as Bendis goes, Didio is going to going to let The Big Superstar write anything he wants--he wouldn't stop him if he wanted to write Nightwing.  But he doesn't--Bendis wants to write Timmy Wimmy.  Therefore:  Dick, Jason, and Damian need to be edged away for Tim's Big Royal Re-Rollout so that the company can pander to The Big Superstar Ego with all the accompanying fanfare.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember Tynion gave an idea about a blonde Dick Grayson. I'm not sure if Tynion was going to write this story or another writer was going to write this plot. 

However, this idea was left aside for Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember Tynion gave an idea about a blonde Dick Grayson. I'm not sure if Tynion was going to write this story or another writer was going to write this plot. 
> 
> However, this idea was left aside for Grayson.


It sounds like the idea was actually used in the first issues of Grayson.  I remember an interview where Tynion said, in essence, that he wasn't interested in writing Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing #54 & #55
> 
> Attachment 73826Attachment 73827


So we get Ric wearing make-up and using ropes as his primary weapon.... Why do we even bother....

----------


## yohyoi

> It sounds like the idea was actually used in the first issues of Grayson.  I remember an interview where Tynion said, in essence, that he wasn't interested in writing Nightwing.


Tynion's Dick isn't memorable too. He is hamfisted to certain character roles which makes him shallow. Dick is smart, Tynion!

----------


## yohyoi

> The other option wasn't Tynion--he doesn't like the character and doesn't want to deal with him regardless.  Didio doesn't hate Tim; thus he indulged Tynion to write all the "love letters" he wanted as long as Defective sold enough copies--he probably wouldn't have cared whether he wanted to write Nightwing or not as long as he could keep Defective on schedule.  As far as Bendis goes, Didio is going to going to let The Big Superstar write anything he wants--he wouldn't stop him if he wanted to write Nightwing.  But he doesn't--Bendis wants to write Timmy Wimmy.  Therefore:  Dick, Jason, and Damian need to be edged away for Tim's Big Royal Re-Rollout so that the company can pander to The Big Superstar Ego with all the accompanying fanfare.  Bendis is a BIG DEAL, maybe rightly so.


Maybe... Remember Waid. DC believes some writers are too big to be wasted on Nightwing. Nightwing is not a big writer's title.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember Tynion gave an idea about a blonde Dick Grayson. I'm not sure if Tynion was going to write this story or another writer was going to write this plot. 
> 
> However, this idea was left aside for Grayson.


The Blonde Dick Grayson was planned for Batman Eternal. He was in the Batgivings picture they used to tease the event. This was before the delay of Forever Evil #7 and Nightwing #30 where they changed plan. Once they decided on the secret agent, he's taken off from the event.

----------


## Pohzee

I was hoping that blond Nightwing would come up in here again recently. I was thinking about it (for some reason) and the idea hit me...

Do we know that that was Dick? Given that he was a blonde, and that Tynion would've been writing it, what would've been the chances that it was supposed to be Calvin Rose?

----------


## oasis1313

> I was hoping that blond Nightwing would come up in here again recently. I was thinking about it (for some reason) and the idea hit me...
> 
> Do we know that that was Dick? Given that he was a blonde, and that Tynion would've been writing it, what would've been the chances that it was supposed to be Calvin Rose?


I thought it was Calvin Rose from the very beginning.  It never occurred to me it might be Blond Grayson.  IMHO, the problem with Waid wasn't that he was too big for Nightwing--he wasn't big ENOUGH to insist on what he wanted and actually get his way--like Bendis is doing.  There is only a handful of writers with that much clout--Bendis, Gaiman, Ennis, Morrison, maybe a few others.

----------


## Konja7

The blond guy is definitely Dick. Even Grayson #1 has a reference to this idea. 





> The Blonde Dick Grayson was planned for Batman Eternal. He was in the Batgivings picture they used to tease the event. This was before the delay of Forever Evil #7 and Nightwing #30 where they changed plan. Once they decided on the secret agent, he's taken off from the event.


Yeah. I hear something about that. 

Blond Dick would appear on Eternal (by Tynion). This would happen after Forever Evil, when Dick lost his Nightwing identity.

I wonder what would happen with the solo of Dick at that time. Maybe it would be cancelled for a time. 

However, the idea of blond Dick and his presence in Batman Eternal were discarded. DC decided to use Grayson.

----------


## oasis1313

Heaven forbid Grayson should actually take part in an Event--instead of just being cannon fodder!!  Blond Dick would have been too weird.

----------


## WonderNight

> Titans is really showing how great it is when Dick leaves the Bat family. I feel the comics should follow and make Dick be more to the Titans than the Bat family. The Bat family does not treat him as an equal to Bruce, but in the Titans he is the leader and the guy who holds it together. In the Bat family, he is either just the moral compass or the hostage to make Bruce mad. His Titans role fit Nightwing better.


Yep I believe as Robin he should be a bat but as nightwing he should be dcu.

----------


## Konja7

> Heaven forbid Grayson should actually take part in an Event--instead of just being cannon fodder!!  Blond Dick would have been too weird.


In this case, I think it was pretty good that DC doesn't put Dick in Batman Eternal by Tynion. 

DC chose Grayson, which is better for the character (Tynion isn't so interested on Dick and Batman Eternal was too crowded) and more profitable.

----------


## WonderNight

> But DC hates the Titans in the comics. So we the fans are still screwed.


True but dick's connects to the dcu shouldn't only be the titans. It's why he's in the situation he's in now because when titans fail or DC loses interest in it nightwing was nowhere else in the  dcu to go so he gets sent back to batman, and here we are.

Maybe it's time for nightwing to have something new. A new team with new relationships made up of some of the dcu bigger characters that don't have solo's that are in and out of limbo. A small team of 5 or 6 nightwing, power girl, zatanna, vixen cyborg and Wally if he's not really dead.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Maybe it's time for nightwing to have something new. A new team with new relationships made up of some of the dcu bigger characters that don't have solo's that are in and out of limbo. A small team of 5 or 6 nightwing, power girl, zatanna, vixen cyborg and Wally if he's not really dead.


Sounds good. I would buy every issue.

----------


## Badou

Tynion was going to write the Nightwing book after Forever Evil. They were just going to have Dick continue to be Nightwing but he would be wearing a blonde wig to disguise himself. He even wrote an entire funeral issue for Nightwing that they penciled but never released. I don't think he would have been good on the book so it is good that DC moved in a different direction, especially since we got Grayson, but I still think the reason for the sudden change of plans was that the Batman office decided late that they didn't want to deal with Dick's situation of his identity being exposed to the world in Forever Evil and took the character off the table entirely by having him become a spy so they wouldn't have to deal with it. Which is what happened as Dick's identity situation was basically ignored in the Batman books and had no real impact outside of Dick's own series.

----------


## Korath

> Maybe it's time for nightwing to have something new. A new team with new relationships made up of some of the dcu bigger characters that don't have solo's that are in and out of limbo. A small team of 5 or 6 nightwing, power girl, zatanna, vixen cyborg and Wally if he's not really dead.


I wouldn't like Dick leading a team with Zatanna and Cyborg, when both of them are already in two teams (Seven Soldiers and JLD; JL and JLO, whom he leds for Cyborg). I would swtich Zatanna for Khalid Nassour and Cyborg with Blue Beetle.

----------


## Restingvoice

> I was hoping that blond Nightwing would come up in here again recently. I was thinking about it (for some reason) and the idea hit me...
> 
> Do we know that that was Dick? Given that he was a blonde, and that Tynion would've been writing it, what would've been the chances that it was supposed to be Calvin Rose?





> I thought it was Calvin Rose from the very beginning.  It never occurred to me it might be Blond Grayson.


Calvin Rose has reddish brown hair or dirty blond. The Blond Nightwing was bright blond. I considered it too, but the face was very Nightwing, younger than Rose, his body is concealed by a black cloak as if to hide his costume and he's wearing Nightwing's domino mask. Then once I checked the hair color I'm convinced that it's Nightwing.

That analysis was back then. My friends and I were really having fun speculating.

----------


## dietrich

> Titans is really showing how great it is when Dick leaves the Bat family. I feel the comics should follow and make Dick be more to the Titans than the Bat family. The Bat family does not treat him as an equal to Bruce, but in the Titans he is the leader and the guy who holds it together. In the Bat family, he is either just the moral compass or the hostage to make Bruce mad. His Titans role fit Nightwing better.


Nightwing isn't equal to Batman. Not in the comics and not in real world terms so I don't expect him to be treated equally. And he won't ever be treated equally because Batman is Batman.  As fans we often forget that. It's important we don't.  Nightwing should be treated respectfully though I agree completely with that.

I think that Nightwing should be more independent. He shouldn't cut ties with the family because that;s his roots. Pull that and Dick Grayson is no longer anchored and vitally important to comics. 

Titans are fodder. I'm happy for Nightwing to take centre stage and a leading with them but not at he cost of his roots and only if DC is serious about promoting the brand well. 

However I want Nightwing to be it's own thing. A hero who was Robin, is  loosely tied to Batman, member of the Titans but mostly spends his time protecting Bludhaven alone.

For those saying that DC isn't putting good writers on Nightwing or that god writers don't want to work on Nightwing. That is not true at. Lobdell might not be a good writer but all the other's have been. 
Seeley, Percy, King, Tomasi. Nightwing always has good writers lining up to work on the title just because this one time things mucked up and we end up with the dud doesn't mean we usually don't have good writers.

Heck even when we had the good writers fans still complained. Why did Seeley leave?
I'm not happy with how things are right now but I'm also not going to pretend like Dick has it bad a lot when he doesn't. DC treats him the way they would treat some top  league members.  I can confidently say that he gets better treatment than Aquaman and similar treatment to Diana [until the movies that is]

I have complained about DC not treating him like a top tier hero but the fact is that while he sells like a top tier hero. In DC hierarchy he isn't [Batman takes his place] and can't treated the same. 

He is 2nd tier. The next line of defence after JL. Now if only DC could find a way to manage this hierarchy well.

Also Blond Nightwing is lame. Tall dark and handsome everytime.

----------


## Konja7

> Tynion was going to write the Nightwing book after Forever Evil. They were just going to have Dick continue to be Nightwing but he would be wearing a blonde wig to disguise himself. He even wrote an entire funeral issue for Nightwing that they penciled but never released. I don't think he would have been good on the book so it is good that DC moved in a different direction, especially since we got Grayson, but I still think the reason for the sudden change of plans was that the Batman office decided late that they didn't want to deal with Dick's situation of his identity being exposed to the world in Forever Evil and took the character off the table entirely by having him become a spy so they wouldn't have to deal with it. Which is what happened as Dick's identity situation was basically ignored in the Batman books and had no real impact outside of Dick's own series.


So, at least, it was true that the other option for Dick was Tynion.

I'm so glad DC has chosen Grayson, even if it was just to avoid the issue with Nightwing identity (we don't know if this was really the reason, but it's likely).

----------


## yohyoi

> Nightwing isn't equal to Batman. Not in the comics and not in real world terms so I don't expect him to be treated equally. And he won't ever be treated equally because Batman is Batman.  As fans we often forget that. It's important we don't.  Nightwing should be treated respectfully though I agree completely with that.
> 
> I think that Nightwing should be more independent. He shouldn't cut ties with the family because that;s his roots. Pull that and Dick Grayson is no longer anchored and vitally important to comics. 
> 
> Titans are fodder. I'm happy for Nightwing to take centre stage and a leading with them but not at he cost of his roots and only if DC is serious about promoting the brand well. 
> 
> However I want Nightwing to be it's own thing. A hero who was Robin, is  loosely tied to Batman, member of the Titans but mostly spends his time protecting Bludhaven alone.
> 
> For those saying that DC isn't putting good writers on Nightwing or that god writers don't want to work on Nightwing. That is not true at. Lobdell might not be a good writer but all the other's have been. 
> ...


I disagree. If Nightwing ever truly wants to leave Batman's shadow, he needs to separate from Bruce like the show. No more building up Batman at the cost of Dick. Dick is a better character anyway. He has the most potential to stand with the Trinity. What you want would only lead to more what we have now. Nightwing can be more than the Bat family.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm one of those who believes Dick can be more and be DC's Spider-Man in both popularity and symbolism. I might not see it. But I know he can. I can feel it especially when I read how he progressed and changed. There's something unique about Dick Grayson that no character will ever have.

----------


## oasis1313

Putting Tynion on a Nightwing book is almost as bad an idea as hiring me to write  Tim Dreck book.  why give a book to someone who says he’s not interested in the characters?  What kind of quality ideas would you expect out of that?

----------


## dietrich

> I disagree. If Nightwing ever truly wants to leave Batman's shadow, he needs to separate from Bruce like the show. No more building up Batman at the cost of Dick. Dick is a better character anyway. He has the most potential to stand with the Trinity. What you want would only lead to more what we have now. Nightwing can be more than the Bat family.


I never said he has to be in batman's shadow. Ties are not the same as shadow. Nightwing shouldn't be in Batman's Shadow nor should he cut ties.

Harley for example is tied to Batman without being in his shadow. It's just about management.

Nightwing can be more than the Batman family but Dick Grayson is the Bat family. That can't be changed unless DC decides to rewrite the Batman story and generations forget what was.

I like Dick better than bats and rate him more than the trinity but sadly I don't get to decide.

----------


## WonderNight

> I never said he has to be in batman's shadow. Ties are not the same as shadow. Nightwing shouldn't be in Batman's Shadow nor should he cut ties.
> 
> Harley for example is tied to Batman without being in his shadow. It's just about management.
> 
> Nightwing can be more than the Batman family but Dick Grayson is the Bat family. That can't be changed unless DC decides to rewrite the Batman story and generations forget what was.
> 
> I like Dick better than bats and rate him more than the trinity but sadly I don't get to decide.


for Harley Quinn its different, nobody call her Batman lite. And Harley can join the JL but not nightwing lol.

----------


## Konja7

> Putting Tynion on a Nightwing book is almost as bad an idea as hiring me to write  Tim Dreck book.  why give a book to someone who says he’s not interested in the characters?  What kind of quality ideas would you expect out of that?


The original plan of Nightwing by Tynion was because DC probably doesn't have other writer or other idea for Dick at that moment. The situation for Dick after Forever Evil was similar to his situation after the shot. 

However, DC chose Grayson with King and Seeley, when they have the option. So, DC still chose the best option for Dick.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

DC will never allow the Titans to be the second line of Defense they are cannon fodder

----------


## WonderNight

> DC will never allow the Titans to be the second line of Defense they are cannon fodder


Yep the JL's are the first and last line of defense. The titans are the midcard jobbers.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Yep the JL's are the first and last line of defense. The titans are the midcard jobbers.


Why can't DC just allow the Titans to do their own things？Does it really that hard to make a generation of mature yet young superheroes work?Does it really that hard to find a place to settle them between JL and YJ？

----------


## Korath

> Why can't DC just allow the Titans to do their own things？Does it really that hard to make a generation of mature yet young superheroes work?*Does it really that hard to find a place to settle them between JL and YJ？*


In a word : Yes.

In a more elaborate explanation : The Titans (as in, the adult ones, since I find that the current Teen Titans is really great) are stuck between a rock (DC) and a hard place (the fans). Some fans want only a certain type of stories, with certain character : the Fab 5 as buddies like in a sitcom but leaving awesome adventures and dealing with terrifying threat. Some other fans want the NTT line up and wants to see DC redo what they did at that time.

And DC can't give them that because it wouldn't only not work, but would fail spectacularly, so it throws ideas after ideas and nothing stick. And why would it fail ? Because the success of the NTT, or even the Fab 5, or whatever incarnation of the team stem from its freshness, its novelty, unexpectedly strucking fold. But Dick Grayson can only become Nightwing for the first time in comics the very first time it does, and retreading it, or any other beats of the greatest eras of TT wouldn't work. The Judas contract was a great story, but you can't repeat it again and again and expect the same effects. 

And unlike say, the X-Men, who have almost as much lasting power of the Avengers as a premiere team of hero right now, and were above them for a long time, who have a definitive feel (they are the persecuted minority trying to prove that their kind isn't monstrous by nature, etc.), with their own villains, often from the same species but taking radical different visions (Magneto wants what he think is best for the Mutants and it's annihilating Homo Sapiens in his mind; Apocalypse just want to rule everyone, etc.), the Titans can't have that. Their core members are either highly derivative of the JL (because they were sidekicks) or have stuggled for a long time to actually move beyond their NTT days (Raven = Trigon; BB = goofy kid with no growth; that's what spring to mind when either of them is involved, wether it is unjust or not). 

And because of that, and DC's universe being a lot more static compared to Marvel's (even if I feel it's changing in the last few years -New 52, Rebirth, Reborn, Doomsday Clock, Metal, the NAoH No Justice, The Man of Steel, Electric Warriors... all are changing and expanding the DCU in bold new ways), adult heroes either join the JL, are separated by vast expanse of space and time (GL Corps, the Legion of Superheroes, mainly) or are left hanging in an awkward position when they form their own team -except if they chose to be vastly different from the JL (the Outlaws work, for instance, because they aren't like the JL at all, but still tries to do good in their own way).

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Because it’s a Justice League Reality and a main shared Universe based on a pantheon structure, the Justice Society are either out of existence or marginalized. This is why Immortal Men, Terrifics, Unexpected etc. fail to attract readers. The people who want a team book that is not the Justice League are first going to go for Titans/JSA who since they are marginalized more so often then not then that fan will have no interest in a new team book especially when they are given “important” tasks that should go to already established teams that need a path. This is also why Skartaris, Pytharia, Gemworld and Otherworlds are only used in events. JSA & Titans should show how people live in this world with access to other Earth Dimension especially since most are technology inferior in lifestyle with ancient advanced technology. Unitil DC creates an actual World where classic teams can exist and not be seen as threats to the JLA we will be stuck on this process. I bet Steve Orlando Future story will not sell well because how do you say this is the future when reality has yet to be settled

----------


## Aahz

I'm also not sure of what made the NTT successful at the time would still work to day. The NTT were imo very soapy, with a lot of of the pages being about the live of the characters out of costume. And DC had a lot of similar books during the 80s (Infinity inc. Young All-Stars, to some degree Outsiders and "Justice League Detroit"). But I'm not sure if that would still work today.

If you look for example at the current Justice League, that book has become very event driven, with almost no time devoted to the personal live of the characters, while the less event driven secondary League Books (Justice League of America, Justice League International, Justice League United), are usually not particularly successfulness.

----------


## dietrich

> for Harley Quinn its different, nobody call her Batman lite. And Harley can join the JL but not nightwing lol.


I get what you mean Harley and Dick are not the same.
After HIC she's better than Batman. Batman is Harley-lite  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Seriously though Nightwing isn't Dick Grayson's only id? 

Nightwing is Batman-ish, Red Robin is Batman-lite. However any non super powered human is Batmanlike. GA, Robin, Red Hood.

Grayson was fresh and not Batman but fans complained and asked for batmanlike identity.


Fans make that criticism but when they are given an option at something different from the oh-so-common hero in costume jumping rooftops/ Hero in costume fighting crime with other costumed heroes they kick back because no finger stripes.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> In a word : Yes.
> 
> In a more elaborate explanation : The Titans (as in, the adult ones, since I find that the current Teen Titans is really great) are stuck between a rock (DC) and a hard place (the fans). Some fans want only a certain type of stories, with certain character : the Fab 5 as buddies like in a sitcom but leaving awesome adventures and dealing with terrifying threat. Some other fans want the NTT line up and wants to see DC redo what they did at that time.
> 
> And DC can't give them that because it wouldn't only not work, but would fail spectacularly, so it throws ideas after ideas and nothing stick. And why would it fail ? Because the success of the NTT, or even the Fab 5, or whatever incarnation of the team stem from its freshness, its novelty, unexpectedly strucking fold. But Dick Grayson can only become Nightwing for the first time in comics the very first time it does, and retreading it, or any other beats of the greatest eras of TT wouldn't work. The Judas contract was a great story, but you can't repeat it again and again and expect the same effects. 
> 
> And unlike say, the X-Men, who have almost as much lasting power of the Avengers as a premiere team of hero right now, and were above them for a long time, who have a definitive feel (they are the persecuted minority trying to prove that their kind isn't monstrous by nature, etc.), with their own villains, often from the same species but taking radical different visions (Magneto wants what he think is best for the Mutants and it's annihilating Homo Sapiens in his mind; Apocalypse just want to rule everyone, etc.), the Titans can't have that. Their core members are either highly derivative of the JL (because they were sidekicks) or have stuggled for a long time to actually move beyond their NTT days (Raven = Trigon; BB = goofy kid with no growth; that's what spring to mind when either of them is involved, wether it is unjust or not). 
> 
> And because of that, and DC's universe being a lot more static compared to Marvel's (even if I feel it's changing in the last few years -New 52, Rebirth, Reborn, Doomsday Clock, Metal, the NAoH No Justice, The Man of Steel, Electric Warriors... all are changing and expanding the DCU in bold new ways), adult heroes either join the JL, are separated by vast expanse of space and time (GL Corps, the Legion of Superheroes, mainly) or are left hanging in an awkward position when they form their own team -except if they chose to be vastly different from the JL (the Outlaws work, for instance, because they aren't like the JL at all, but still tries to do good in their own way).


Thanks for your reply. However, that's more like a explanation for Titans' current situation to me. I think people(i.e. the target group who buy the book)love the Titans because they see how the first generation of young heroes grow up together and become independent superheroes. Maybe Dick can only become Nightwing once, but does it mean he stops learning and fighting to be a better man and a better superhero since then?Dick Grayson in his late twenties still has problems to fix, they are just very different from those in his early Nightwing stage. The writer still can write about character growth. Why does DC think Titans can only get character growth when they are acting like a bunch of immature teenagers?If the comic readers want to read something like that they would buy YJ or TT. For the target readers of Titans, it's just disappionting regression. 
That's why I think DC haven't found the right position for the Titans. The team could work and has great potential--but firstly, DC should admit their adultness.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I'm also not sure of what made the NTT successful at the time would still work to day. The NTT were imo very soapy, with a lot of of the pages being about the live of the characters out of costume. And DC had a lot of similar books during the 80s (Infinity inc. Young All-Stars, to some degree Outsiders and "Justice League Detroit"). But I'm not sure if that would still work today.
> 
> If you look for example at the current Justice League, that book has become very event driven, with almost no time devoted to the personal live of the characters, while the less event driven secondary League Books (Justice League of America, Justice League International, Justice League United), are usually not particularly successfulness.



Different team members, different writers, different popularity, I would agrue they are hardly comparable.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Grayson was fresh and not Batman but fans complained and asked for batmanlike identity.
> 
> Fans make that criticism but when they are given an option at something different from the oh-so-common hero in costume jumping rooftops/ Hero in costume fighting crime with other costumed heroes they kick back because no finger stripes.


One thing I always find strange: I've never met a Dick Grayson's fan who doesn't love Grayson yet kept hearing about them. :Big Grin:

----------


## Konja7

> Thanks for your reply. However, that's more like a explanation for Titans' current situation to me. I think people(i.e. the target group who buy the book)love the Titans because they see how the first generation of young heroes grow up together and become independent superheroes. Maybe Dick can only become Nightwing once, but does it mean he stops learning and fighting to be a better man and a better superhero since then?Dick Grayson in his late twenties still has problems to fix, they are just very different from those in his early Nightwing stage. The writer still can write about character growth. Why does DC think Titans can only get character growth when they are acting like a bunch of immature teenagers?If the comic readers want to read something like that they would buy YJ or TT. For the target readers of Titans, it's just disappionting regression. 
> That's why I think DC haven't found the right position for the Titans. The team could work and has great potential--but firstly, DC should admit their adultness.


There is a problem with the hierachy of Justice League and Batman. DC doesn't want to promote Titans as an adult group of superheroes, because they think Titans will be redundant to Justice League. 

In the case of Dick, DC also doesn't want Batman looks old. 

Actually, Dick isn't in his late twenties. In New 52, Dick is 21 years old. However, it's mentioned recently in Nightwing (although it's a guess writer) that Dick is mid-twenties. The current age of Dick is a a mystery, but DC won't let him get close to 30.

----------


## yohyoi

Titans comics does not have a clear purpose. It started as a Wally/OG Teen Titans book then turned into a Junior Justice League book then turned into a DC X-men book. Now, it is an Event Fallout and Character Study Book. It's simply riding whatever event DC makes and turning its' heroes into their worst selves so their is struggle in the plot. Reminds me of New52 Teen Titans where everyone was near or are unlikable. In short, a lot of mopping and more mopping.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> There is a problem with the hierachy of Justice League and Batman. DC doesn't want to promote Titans as an adult group of superheroes, because they think Titans will be redundant to Justice League. 
> 
> In the case of Dick, DC also doesn't want Batman looks old. 
> 
> Actually, Dick isn't in his late twenties. In New 52, Dick is 21 years old. However, it's mentioned recently in Nightwing (although it's a guess writer) that Dick is mid-twenties. The current age of Dick is a a mystery, but DC won't let him get close to 30.


DC's dilemmas：
1)Trying to avoid Titans being redundant to JL
-Ending up with Titans being redundant to Teen Titans

2)Insisting on making Batman's age pratical
-Ending up with Nightwing's age impractical. According to New52's timeline Dick was Batman even before he could legally drink alcohol, can you believe it？

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Titans comics does not have a clear purpose. It started as a Wally/OG Teen Titans book then turned into a Junior Justice League book then turned into a DC X-men book. Now, it is an Event Fallout and Character Study Book. It's simply riding whatever event DC makes and turning its' heroes into their worst selves so their is struggle in the plot. Reminds me of New52 Teen Titans where everyone was near or are unlikable. In short, a lot of mopping and more mopping.


I guess that's what happens when a franchise doesn't have its own office.

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans comics does not have a clear purpose. It started as a Wally/OG Teen Titans book then turned into a Junior Justice League book then turned into a DC X-men book. Now, it is an Event Fallout and Character Study Book. It's simply riding whatever event DC makes and turning its' heroes into their worst selves so their is struggle in the plot. Reminds me of New52 Teen Titans where everyone was near or are unlikable. In short, a lot of mopping and more mopping.


The original Titans book had a basic premise of (gifted) teens helping other (not so gifted) teens, and maybe they should go back to a definable mission like that.  Dick's leadership skills and charisma need to be showcased again.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Why does DC think Titans can only get character growth when they are acting like a bunch of immature teenagers?.


Because that's what they think their brand is. The most popular story about Titans, teens or otherwise, are either Trigon, Judas Contract, or mentor vs sidekick, so they replay those over on over. Much like how they keep Batman solitary all the time, because the most popular Batman stories are when he's solo like Year One or grim like TDKR. Same reason why they portray Joker getting more and more violent every time, because the most popular Joker stories are the sadistic ones. 

They saw certain types of story are the most popular, so they try to shape the characters brand around that. Batman is solitary, Joker is sadistic and Titans are rebel.

Also, DC don't see Titans and Teen Titans as different brands. You can see it in how, whether the team consists of adult or teenager, in any medium, they keep replaying that same Trigon-Deathstroke-Mentor angle.

----------


## Konja7

> Because that's what they think their brand is. The most popular story about Titans, teens or otherwise, are either Trigon, Judas Contract, or mentor vs sidekick, so they replay those over on over. Much like how they keep Batman solitary all the time, because the most popular Batman stories are when he's solo like Year One or grim like TDKR. Same reason why they portray Joker getting more and more violent every time, because the most popular Joker stories are the sadistic ones. 
> 
> They saw certain types of story are the most popular, so they try to shape the characters brand around that. Batman is solitary, Joker is sadistic and Titans are rebel.
> 
> Also, DC don't see Titans and Teen Titans as different brands. You can see it in how, whether the team consists of adult or teenager, in any medium, they keep replaying that same Trigon-Deathstroke-Mentor angle.


Also, the concept of Batman solitary and Joker sadistic can be treated in different ways. So, they can use this indefinitely. 

However, the concept of young heroes seeking independence has a limit. The characters have to find new concepts, but DC can not do that (especially since this may clash with Justice League hierarchy).


PS: I don't like the concept of Batman solitary.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Because that's what they think their brand is. The most popular story about Titans, teens or otherwise, are either Trigon, Judas Contract, or mentor vs sidekick, so they replay those over on over. Much like how they keep Batman solitary all the time, because the most popular Batman stories are when he's solo like Year One or grim like TDKR. Same reason why they portray Joker getting more and more violent every time, because the most popular Joker stories are the sadistic ones. 
> 
> They saw certain types of story are the most popular, so they try to shape the characters brand around that. Batman is solitary, Joker is sadistic and Titans are rebel.
> 
> Also, DC don't see Titans and Teen Titans as different brands. You can see it in how, whether the team consists of adult or teenager, in any medium, they keep replaying that same Trigon-Deathstroke-Mentor angle.


Sounds like the result of terrible market segmentation. Shame. :Frown:

----------


## yohyoi

Solicitations are coming later. I'm not optimistic. It has been downhill the past months.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Solicitations are coming later. I'm not optimistic. It has been downhill the past months.


Tomasi said Damian and Nightwing would be in his TEC run. At least we can count on that.

----------


## oasis1313

> Tomasi said Damian and Nightwing would be in his TEC run. At least we can count on that.


Now THAT'S some good news!!!!!!

----------


## Godlike13

Cool, I’m excited to see Ric panhandling on the streets of Gotham  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Yeah if it’s still Ric I would like it if they left him out of it, it’s a Batman celebration so in today’s current comic book environment Dick Grayson suffers in the presence of Bruce Wayne.

----------


## oasis1313

> Cool, I’m excited to see Ric panhandling on the streets of Gotham


Yeah, he can pretend he's blind.  Or maybe he can turn cartwheels and hope that people will put a few pennies in a mason jar if they enjoy watching his tumbles.

----------


## Arsenal

NIGHTWING #57

written by SCOTT LOBDELL
art by TRAVIS MOORE
cover by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
variant cover by JEFF DEKAL
Destiny…fate…predetermined inevitability… these are all things that Ric Grayson has struggled to reconcile now that he has been given a second chance at life. A life recently unburdened with years of trauma, defeat and struggle when the hero known as Nightwing was shot in the head. Now, Ric must come to terms with who he is, and what kind of hero he wants to be…if he wants to be one at all. And while Ric is content to walk away from the mantle, one woman has been hiding in the shadows, waiting to solidify an identity of her own…an identity tied for all eternity to the clown price of crime…enter The Joker’s Daughter!

----------


## Pohzee

At least Moore is back?

But for this story so actually I don't care bc I'm not reading it.

----------


## oasis1313

> NIGHTWING #57
> 
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
> variant cover by JEFF DEKAL
> Destiny…fate…predetermined inevitability… these are all things that Ric Grayson has struggled to reconcile now that he has been given a second chance at life. A life recently unburdened with years of trauma, defeat and struggle when the hero known as Nightwing was shot in the head. Now, Ric must come to terms with who he is, and what kind of hero he wants to be…if he wants to be one at all. And while Ric is content to walk away from the mantle, one woman has been hiding in the shadows, waiting to solidify an identity of her own…an identity tied for all eternity to the clown price of crime…enter The Joker’s Daughter!


#57?  We're still waiting for #52 or 53?  So this is going on several months out from now; maybe Ric will fall headfirst into a vat of Rogaine.

----------


## Arsenal

I assume the Ric arc ends once DC has a permanent writer lined up for Nightwing. There’d be no point of establishing a new post Ric status quo until that happens.

----------


## dropkickjake

Got a link? He say anything specific?

----------


## oasis1313

> I assume the Ric arc ends once DC has a permanent writer lined up for Nightwing. Thered be no point of establishing a new post Ric status quo until that happens.


It shouldn't be that hard to find a writer.  Is DC even looking?  I notice no mention of Fabian in the solicits for #57--is Lobdell writing his own dialogue?  If he could do for Dick the miracles he's worked for Jason, I'd be okay with him staying on.

----------


## byrd156

Remember when Dick was on the cover of Heroes in Crisis? Hilarious.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Remember when Dick was on the cover of Heroes in Crisis? Hilarious.


'member when Dick was Dick? That was nice.

----------


## byrd156

> 'member when Dick was Dick? That was nice.


Good times.

----------


## Badou

> NIGHTWING #57
> 
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
> variant cover by JEFF DEKAL
> Destiny…fate…predetermined inevitability… these are all things that Ric Grayson has struggled to reconcile now that he has been given a second chance at life. A life recently unburdened with years of trauma, defeat and struggle when the hero known as Nightwing was shot in the head. Now, Ric must come to terms with who he is, and what kind of hero he wants to be…if he wants to be one at all. And while Ric is content to walk away from the mantle, one woman has been hiding in the shadows, waiting to solidify an identity of her own…an identity tied for all eternity to the clown price of crime…enter The Joker’s Daughter!


Can people stop acting like Lobdell is a good writer now? This is purely his story and he isn't writing some poorly thought out concept that was thrown in his lap last minute anymore. It is all him and this is the direction he thinks the character should go in during this pointless arc and Joker's Daughter is the character he wants to use for it. Dragging in Scarecrow from Gotham for some bad Superheavy knockoff story wasn't his decision but this is all on him now.

Dick has 80+ years of history to use for some great introspective look at the character and this is what they do for it. I just don't get it. It pains me to think of what this arc could have been with just an ounce of care put into it.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

Batman Epic Event, Justice League Epic Event, The Titans Finally doing things on another world without competing with the Justice League, Super Sons in a Intergalactic Prison, Young Justice, and then there is Nightwing and the "new" emergence of Jokers Daughter. Nightwing Sucks and that is all I have to say, There is no story in the DC Universe for him as he is completely controlled by Batman's Legacy/Justice League Pantheon that has no interest in Dick Grayson but to leave him in Bludhaven. I won't be buying new DC comics until further notice since I do not think this Jokers Daughter story will be one issue and we have March with a new creative team. I have no interest in this story and Doomsday Clock is really the only exception. Even is Dick Grayson becomes Dick Grayson he will more than likely still be in Bludhaven stuck between his no endgame Batgirl relationship trying to measure up to Batman by fighting street level villains while people he has trained and fought with travel around the galaxy. I do not blame Didio for seeing no reason to contribute Nightwing stories since his Wingnuts will forever demand Bludhaven which will never truly represent a bright future for Nightwing. Action Comics is also having a spy event and why would Dick Grayson who worked with Spyral be allowed to participate in a Non Batman event as a hero and not cannon fodder. I can no longer invest in this character because I really think with Lobdell Nightwing has entered Red Hood and The Outlaws territory however the Batman influences over his story make it a worse position.

----------


## WonderNight

> Remember when Dick was on the cover of Heroes in Crisis? Hilarious.


remember when dick was supposed to lead his own team with Waller in no justice? Or when dick was supposed to be a key character in forever evil? Or the titans and dr. Manhattan? With nightwing it's all talk.

----------


## Badou

> It shouldn't be that hard to find a writer.  Is DC even looking?  I notice no mention of Fabian in the solicits for #57--is Lobdell writing his own dialogue?  If he could do for Dick the miracles he's worked for Jason, I'd be okay with him staying on.


I think I'd rather run a cheese grater over my eyes than read more of Lobdell's dialogue. It is so rough to get through. 

I really don't get how people can still defend Lobdell after everything we've seen from him. Jason fans I can understand at least, since he feels a sense of ownership and obligation to the character where he will never undermine him or take things away from him, but he has done such a poor job on nearly every other DC character he has written where I don't get how people can still expect him to do well. He isn't going to do for Dick what he did for Jason because he doesn't care about Dick's character the same way. He doesn't have the same investment level. 




> Remember when Dick was on the cover of Heroes in Crisis? Hilarious.


The moment we found out what HiC was going to be and that Dick was going to be removed from the DCU after getting shot in the head and isolated in Bludhaven it was obvious he would never play a role in HiC. Since the Ric story is going on for another arc after Scarecrow it feels really apparent that they aren't going to put a new creative team and direction for Nightwing until after HiC is finished.

----------


## oasis1313

> Batman Epic Event, Justice League Epic Event, The Titans Finally doing things on another world without competing with the Justice League, Super Sons in a Intergalactic Prison, Young Justice, and then there is Nightwing and the "new" emergence of Jokers Daughter. Nightwing Sucks and that is all I have to say, There is no story in the DC Universe for him as he is completely controlled by Batman's Legacy/Justice League Pantheon that has no interest in Dick Grayson but to leave him in Bludhaven. I won't be buying new DC comics until further notice since I do not think this Jokers Daughter story will be one issue and we have March with a new creative team. I have no interest in this story and Doomsday Clock is really the only exception. Even is Dick Grayson becomes Dick Grayson he will more than likely still be in Bludhaven stuck between his no endgame Batgirl relationship trying to measure up to Batman by fighting street level villains while people he has trained and fought with travel around the galaxy. I do not blame Didio for seeing no reason to contribute Nightwing stories since his Wingnuts will forever demand Bludhaven which will never truly represent a bright future for Nightwing. Action Comics is also having a spy event and why would Dick Grayson who worked with Spyral be allowed to participate in a Non Batman event as a hero and not cannon fodder. I can no longer invest in this character because I really think with Lobdell Nightwing has entered Red Hood and The Outlaws territory however the Batman influences over his story make it a worse position.


I am probably the oldest and most steadfast Wingnut alive, and I NEVER liked Bludhaven.  I liked Grayson.  I like pretty much anything that is for the GOOD of Dick Grayson and advances his viability and visibility.  I would like to see him reach his full potential I KNOW he has before I shuffle off to the grave.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> I am probably the oldest and most steadfast Wingnut alive, and I NEVER liked Bludhaven.  I liked Grayson.  I like pretty much anything that is for the GOOD of Dick Grayson and advances his viability and visibility.  I would like to see him reach his full potential I KNOW he has before I shuffle off to the grave.


Yeah I was kind of mad with that post because all these stories have people doing things across space and time while Nightwing is not Nightwing and stuck in Bludhaven with another rehashed villain to fight.

----------


## WonderNight

> Batman Epic Event, Justice League Epic Event, The Titans Finally doing things on another world without competing with the Justice League, Super Sons in a Intergalactic Prison, Young Justice, and then there is Nightwing and the "new" emergence of Jokers Daughter. Nightwing Sucks and that is all I have to say, There is no story in the DC Universe for him as he is completely controlled by Batman's Legacy/Justice League Pantheon that has no interest in Dick Grayson but to leave him in Bludhaven. I won't be buying new DC comics until further notice since I do not think this Jokers Daughter story will be one issue and we have March with a new creative team. I have no interest in this story and Doomsday Clock is really the only exception. Even is Dick Grayson becomes Dick Grayson he will more than likely still be in Bludhaven stuck between his no endgame Batgirl relationship trying to measure up to Batman by fighting street level villains while people he has trained and fought with travel around the galaxy. I do not blame Didio for seeing no reason to contribute Nightwing stories since his Wingnuts will forever demand Bludhaven which will never truly represent a bright future for Nightwing. Action Comics is also having a spy event and why would Dick Grayson who worked with Spyral be allowed to participate in a Non Batman event as a hero and not cannon fodder. I can no longer invest in this character because I really think with Lobdell Nightwing has entered Red Hood and The Outlaws territory however the Batman influences over his story make it a worse position.


Man I agree 100%. I'm done supporting nightwing in comics until DC invest in the character. If DC doesn't care about nightwing then why should I? 

Until DC stops with this mediocre batman lite batgirl BS I'm done with nightwing in comics.

Its put up or shut up. Grow some balls and finally let nightwing be his own man or send him with Roy and Wally.

----------


## byrd156

> It shouldn't be that hard to find a writer.  Is DC even looking?  I notice no mention of Fabian in the solicits for #57--is Lobdell writing his own dialogue?  If he could do for Dick the miracles he's worked for Jason, I'd be okay with him staying on.


Did wonders? Different strokes I guess but Lobdell is probably my least favorite comic writer of all time. I can't wait for him to go to a different book, every character I love that he writes turns to garbage real fast.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Did wonders? Different strokes I guess but Lobdell is probably my least favorite comic writer of all time. I can't wait for him to go to a different book, every character I love that he writes turns to garbage real fast.


Read Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth yet?

----------


## oasis1313

> Read Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth yet?


I think Lobdell is doing great for Jason.  Maybe it's because he feels a certain amount of ownership for him or whatever, but I always read RHATO every month.  It would be nice to have any writer and/or artist interested enough in Dick to give him some good stories.  As for HIC, I laughed the first time I saw that cover--DC will put Nightwing on a cover to help sell a book but that's all we'll get.

----------


## Godlike13

> NIGHTWING #57
> 
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
> variant cover by JEFF DEKAL
> Destiny…fate…predetermined inevitability… these are all things that Ric Grayson has struggled to reconcile now that he has been given a second chance at life. A life recently unburdened with years of trauma, defeat and struggle when the hero known as Nightwing was shot in the head. Now, Ric must come to terms with who he is, and what kind of hero he wants to be…if he wants to be one at all. And while Ric is content to walk away from the mantle, one woman has been hiding in the shadows, waiting to solidify an identity of her own…an identity tied for all eternity to the clown price of crime…enter The Joker’s Daughter!


I don’t think they said Ric enough.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I think Lobdell is doing great for Jason.  Maybe it's because he feels a certain amount of ownership for him or whatever, but I always read RHATO every month.  It would be nice to have any writer and/or artist interested enough in Dick to give him some good stories.  As for HIC, I laughed the first time I saw that cover--DC will put Nightwing on a cover to help sell a book but that's all we'll get.


Dick on that cover looked great. It's a shame that we couldn't get more Nightwing from Clay Mann.

----------


## Badou

It also annoys me that it seems that Action Comics is going to do the big Spy Wars arc that the Grayson series never got to do.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> At least Moore is back?
> 
> But for this story so actually I don't care bc I'm not reading it.


And variant cover by Jeff Dekal. Another silver lining.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

They are publishing a new edition omnibus of Grayson. Does it mean the book sells well？

GRAYSON: THE SUPERSPY OMNIBUS HC NEW EDITION
written by TOM KING, TIM SEELEY and others
art by MIKEL JANIN, STEPHEN MOONEY, CARMINE DI GIANDOMENICO, ROGE ANTONIO and others
cover by MIKEL JANIN
Collects all of Dick Grayson’s adventures as Agent 37 for the spy organization known as Spyral under a new title! Faking his death, and entering a game of cat and mouse, Dick must take down Spyral from the inside in order to save his loved ones. This omnibus edition collects GRAYSON #1-20, SECRET ORIGINS #8, GRAYSON ANNUAL #1-3, GRAYSON: FUTURE’S END #1, ROBIN WAR #1-2 and NIGHTWING: REBIRTH #1, with appearances by Batman, Superman and more!
ON SALE 08.21.19
$99.99 US | 792 PAGES | 7.0625” x 10.875”

----------


## Konja7

> Its put up or shut up. Grow some balls and finally let nightwing be his own man or *send him with Roy and Wally*.


Well, Didio wants to do that. However, Nightwing is too popular, so they wouldn't kill Dick. 

The thing is Dick is enough popular to survive many things like Infinity Crisis and New52 reboot. However, Dick isn't enough popular that DC wants develop him (they feel there is a risk for Batman in doing this).


Another problem is that Batman can do almost everything. There are few things that Batman can not be (pretty silly, pretty young, between others), but Nightwing can not do these either.

So, DC will choose Batman over Nightwing. An spy? Batman can do this. A leader? Batman is enough sociable to do this too. 

In change, DC can promote Harley Quinn, because she can be things that Batman don't. Harley Quinn can be pretty goofy and silly.

----------


## Vordan

Well I was wrong, sorry guys, this Ric crap is *awful* and I cant believe Lobdell is bringing that s*** character Jokers Daughter. DC should beg Higgans to come back and stay out of his way because right now Nightwing is at an all time low.

----------


## pandesal

Nightwing by Dexter Soy!  :Cool: 

FB_IMG_1542682272919.jpg

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Well I was wrong, sorry guys, this Ric crap is *awful* and I can’t believe Lobdell is bringing that s*** character Joker’s Daughter. DC should beg Higgans to come back and stay out of his way because right now Nightwing is at an all time low.


Or Seeley. I want Grayson story to continue

----------


## oasis1313

> Well, Didio wants to do that. However, Nightwing is too popular, so they wouldn't kill Dick. 
> 
> The thing is Dick is enough popular to survive many things like Infinity Crisis and New52 reboot. However, Dick isn't enough popular that DC wants develop him (they feel there is a risk for Batman in doing this).
> 
> 
> Another problem is that Batman can do almost everything. There are few things that Batman can not be (pretty silly, pretty young, between others), but Nightwing can not do these either.
> 
> So, DC will choose Batman over Nightwing. An spy? Batman can do this. A leader? Batman is enough sociable to do this too. 
> 
> In change, DC can promote Harley Quinn, because she can be things that Batman don't. Harley Quinn can be pretty goofy and silly.


Perhaps Didio feels that Ric-ishness will diminish the character's popularity enough to quietly slit his throat in a back alley somewhere without a bunch of rabid Wingnuts coming after his luggage, I don't know--there are more ways than one to kill a character, as we are all aware.  Is this his game or does he believe he's doing what's best for the character?  I don't know that, either.

----------


## oasis1313

> Nightwing by Dexter Soy! 
> 
> FB_IMG_1542682272919.jpg


Well, HERE'S something Batman can't do!   :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Nightwing by Dexter Soy! 
> 
> FB_IMG_1542682272919.jpg


Hey Nightwing and his gorgeous hair! :Big Grin: 
This is a great cover. Is it for you?Congratulations！

----------


## oasis1313

Shaving Dick Grayson's head should be a felony.

----------


## yohyoi

> They are publishing a new edition omnibus of Grayson. Does it mean the book sells well？
> 
> GRAYSON: THE SUPERSPY OMNIBUS HC NEW EDITION
> written by TOM KING, TIM SEELEY and others
> art by MIKEL JANIN, STEPHEN MOONEY, CARMINE DI GIANDOMENICO, ROGE ANTONIO and others
> cover by MIKEL JANIN
> Collects all of Dick Grayson’s adventures as Agent 37 for the spy organization known as Spyral under a new title! Faking his death, and entering a game of cat and mouse, Dick must take down Spyral from the inside in order to save his loved ones. This omnibus edition collects GRAYSON #1-20, SECRET ORIGINS #8, GRAYSON ANNUAL #1-3, GRAYSON: FUTURE’S END #1, ROBIN WAR #1-2 and NIGHTWING: REBIRTH #1, with appearances by Batman, Superman and more!
> ON SALE 08.21.19
> $99.99 US | 792 PAGES | 7.0625” x 10.875”


Most likely. It was a great omnibus too. Art was amazing. Story was exciting. It's also one of the few DC spy books. I'm thinking of buying this to show my hatred of Ric Drunk Man.

----------


## oasis1313

> Most likely. It was a great omnibus too. Art was amazing. Story was exciting. It's also one of the few DC spy books. I'm thinking of buying this to show my hatred of Ric Drunk Man.


and Ric Burglar and Ric Freeloader and Ric Hyperthyroid and Ric Douchebag.

----------


## yohyoi

> NIGHTWING #57
> 
> written by SCOTT LOBDELL
> art by TRAVIS MOORE
> cover by CHRIS MOONEYHAM
> variant cover by JEFF DEKAL
> Destiny…fate…predetermined inevitability… these are all things that Ric Grayson has struggled to reconcile now that he has been given a second chance at life. A life recently unburdened with years of trauma, defeat and struggle when the hero known as Nightwing was shot in the head. Now, Ric must come to terms with who he is, and what kind of hero he wants to be…if he wants to be one at all. And while Ric is content to walk away from the mantle, one woman has been hiding in the shadows, waiting to solidify an identity of her own…an identity tied for all eternity to the clown price of crime…enter The Joker’s Daughter!


This solicitation isn't different from the #50 and beyond. Ric is still having identity problems. He doesn't want to be Nightwing. There is a Batman-related villain in the shadows. It's just another rehash...

----------


## oasis1313

> This solicitation isn't different from the #50 and beyond. Ric is still having identity problems. He doesn't want to be Nightwing. There is a Batman-related villain in the shadows. It's just another rehash...


That nasty Joker-face should have dried up or rotted out by now.  She's nuts to be hanging on to it.  I hope she isn't Two-Face's daughter in this run.

----------


## Restingvoice

Travis is back to make things a teensy bit hot but that's about it

NTW-53-2.jpg

Still not buying

----------


## oasis1313

A bit old and chubby for the part.

----------


## byrd156

> A bit old and chubby for the part.


That's not Dick.

----------


## yohyoi

Travis is so good. The writers are not.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That's not Dick.


Not every superhero(or superhero wanna-be, in this case)can carry off skin-tight spandex.  :Big Grin:

----------


## Badou

Feel so bad Moore's art is being wasted on this pointless arc when there is a good chance he won't be back on the book with whatever new direction they decide to go in when they relaunch it.

----------


## oasis1313

> Travis is so good. The writers are not.


I'm glad there's at least some decent artwork at the moment.  Nightwing has been stripped of enough good stuff.

----------


## Armor of God

Joker's Daughter? Really DC? I know people will and have been blaming Lobdell but where's DC in all this? Truth is that garbage characters like her exist because DC pushes everything Joker affiliated to the moon. No character in recent memory has come close to be a trainwreck on her level. Its why Snyder can push stupid characters like the Batman who Laughs who in my opinion is as bad as Joker's daughter or Johns can push stupid concepts like 3 Jokers.

----------


## oasis1313

> Joker's Daughter? Really DC? I know people will and have been blaming Lobdell but where's DC in all this? Truth is that garbage characters like her exist because DC pushes everything Joker affiliated to the moon. No character in recent memory has come close to be a trainwreck on her level. Its why Snyder can push stupid characters like the Batman who Laughs who in my opinion is as bad as Joker's daughter or Johns can push stupid concepts like 3 Jokers.


I don't know what Dc "Editorial" does except say, "Oh (Brian, Scott(s), James,etc etc etc, you're so wonderful!"

----------


## Restingvoice

Commission from Glovestudios

Dsb-jzAVAAABdnW.jpg

Dat waist to ass ratio though

----------


## Armor of God

> I don't know what Dc "Editorial" does except say, "Oh (Brian, Scott(s), James,etc etc etc, you're so wonderful!"


Yes, it could easily have been Batman who Riddles, 3 Penguins or Mad Hatters daughter and yet they dont exist, why? What makes them so inferior?The only difference is the Joker theme. So truth is that asinine developments are wanked at DC as long as there's some Joker twist to them.

----------


## adrikito

I hope see DICK GRAYSON(Not ric) again before june..

Joker Daughter... I have bad memories about her from Red Hood&Arsenal..

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Commission from Glovestudios
> 
> Dsb-jzAVAAABdnW.jpg
> 
> Dat waist to ass ratio though


Maybe Ric should be a model...Stop wasting Dick Grayson's ASSets, Ric.

----------


## Dzetoun

Yeah, between the _Nightwing_ storyline, the spy war that should have involved _Grayson_, and changing Jon Kent into what looks like an angry adolescent, February stinks like a dead polecat on a bed of onions. Oh well, I will keep my money. Best message I can send.

----------


## Badou

> Joker's Daughter? Really DC? I know people will and have been blaming Lobdell but where's DC in all this? Truth is that garbage characters like her exist because DC pushes everything Joker affiliated to the moon. No character in recent memory has come close to be a trainwreck on her level. Its why Snyder can push stupid characters like the Batman who Laughs who in my opinion is as bad as Joker's daughter or Johns can push stupid concepts like 3 Jokers.


Lobdell likes her character and is likely the one that pushed to use her in this arc. He has some bizarre fascination with her that I don't understand and he was the last one to write her. She was one of the worst creations of the entire New 52 mess.

----------


## oasis1313

> Maybe Ric should be a model...Stop wasting Dick Grayson's ASSets, Ric.


Now THERE is one thing Nightwing can do that Batman cant:  Rock the best azz in the universe!

----------


## Restingvoice

Speaking of models... look at this... porn version of Batman that Dan Panosian made for an unpublished Batgirl issue 

DsdzrieUUAAO5tY.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> Lobdell likes her character and is likely the one that pushed to use her in this arc. He has some bizarre fascination with her that I don't understand and he was the last one to write her. She was one of the worst creations of the entire New 52 mess.


Who thought turning Duela into "that" was a good idea? I know she is kinda obscure but that doesn't mean do whatever the hell you want to them. It's always Titans characters that get bastardized, doesn't matter how popular or obscure. If they have even one fan DC won't stop till they are pissed.

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah, between the _Nightwing_ storyline, the spy war that should have involved _Grayson_, and changing Jon Kent into what looks like an angry adolescent, February stinks like a dead polecat on a bed of onions. Oh well, I will keep my money. Best message I can send.


Looks like they're going to get rid of Jon so Bendis' Connor will be the only Superboy.  And people gripe about the companies pandering to the customers!

----------


## dietrich

> Speaking of models... look at this... porn version of Batman that Dan Panosian made for an unpublished Batgirl issue 
> 
> DsdzrieUUAAO5tY.jpg


That is disturbing. WTF is he smirking at? and why is he posing by the door? Is he coming on to her by trying to be Grayson?

On nightwing DC is trying their very best to get me to drop this. Also really hope Lobdel isn't on this title past 60

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That is disturbing. WTF is he smirking at? and why is he posing by the door? Is he coming on to her by trying to be Grayson?
> 
> On nightwing DC is trying their very best to get me to drop this. Also really hope Lobdel isn't on this title past 60


That was Dick Grayson under the cowl :Wink:

----------


## oasis1313

> That was Dick Grayson under the cowl


Yeah, I was wondering why Batman was smiling.  He'd probably get more points with Babs if he took off the stupid cowl.

----------


## dietrich

> That was Dick Grayson under the cowl


Oh Phew! It was bothersome trying to make sense of what the heck Bruce was playing at.

----------


## Godlike13

So picking up Nightwing today I realized on the cover it said We Are Nightwing. I think I’m starting to understand what DC is doing here. The amnesia, Copwing, We Are Nightwing, and coming soon Jokers Daughter. The people behind Nightwing and this book are either just so lazy, can’t be bothered, or just that creatively inept to even try to put forth any real effort, creative or otherwise, that they are now just recycling ideas from a few years ago. And not the good ones, but the bad ones that bombed and were for the most part rejected by readers.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh Phew! It was bothersome trying to make sense of what the heck Bruce was playing at.


Bruce is so UN-sexy.  Most of the women he dates are just to further his "playboy" image to hide his Batman persona (the person he REALLY is) and he has no actual interest in them; there's nothing less sexy than a man who isn't interested.  He's not interested in Bruce Wayne, either, or Bruce Wayne's life; he's just a cypher.

----------


## Pohzee

> So picking up Nightwing today I realized on the cover it said We Are Nightwing. I think I’m starting to understand what DC is doing here. The amnesia, Copwing, We Are Nightwing, and coming soon Jokers Daughter. The people behind Nightwing and this book are either just so lazy, can’t be bothered, or just that creatively inept to even try to put forth any real effort, creative or otherwise, that they are now just recycling ideas from a few years ago. And not the good ones, but the bad ones that bombed and were for for the most part rejected by readers.


Kill me please

----------


## Konja7

> Bruce is so UN-sexy.  Most of the women he dates are just to further his "playboy" image to hide his Batman persona (the person he REALLY is) and he has no actual interest in them; there's nothing less sexy than a man who isn't interested.  He's not interested in Bruce Wayne, either, or Bruce Wayne's life; he's just a cypher.


Really? I have understood that there are women who think men not interested are sexy (or, at least, sexier than men too interested).

That said, I feel Bruce is too old to be sexy. 


PS: I realized that I feel that Bruce is old (even although he's 30s), because of Dick. So, DC is partially right about this.

----------


## bearman

I don’t get it.
 All DC has to do is make Bruce 11 years older than Dick.

----------


## Konja7

> I don’t get it.
>  All DC has to do is make Bruce 11 years older than Dick.


I doesn't matter how old DC establish the characters. 

Based on the relationship between Bruce and Dick, many readers will feel that Bruce is much older that Dick (who is already an adult). That's why DC won't allow to Dick grow more (they will reduce his age). 

DC feel fear that "fans feeling that Bruce is old" is a threat to the popularity of the character (they are probably right at some level).

----------


## Onthetrapeze

Bruce is at his peak...He is neither old nor unsexy.

----------


## oasis1313

> Really? I have understood that there are women who think men not interested are sexy (or, at least, sexier than men too interested).
> 
> That said, I feel Bruce is too old to be sexy. 
> 
> 
> PS: I realized that I feel that Bruce is old (even although he's 30s), because of Dick. So, DC is partially right about this.


Some women see an aloof man as a challenge.  Bruce isn't too old to be sexy; after all, wasn't J Howard Marshall sexy enough for Anna Nicole Smith to fall deeply in love with him and marry him?  He pushed his own wheelchair right up to the pole at Gigi's Strip Club and staked his claim because he was INTERESTED.

----------


## Konja7

> Bruce is at his peak...He is neither old nor unsexy.


True. Bruce is 30s.

However, I always feel Bruce as much older. It's because Dick (and the other Robins) I feel that way.

----------


## oasis1313

> True. Bruce is 30s.
> 
> However, I always feel Bruce as much older. It's because Dick.


You could always overlap the orphans.

----------


## Godlike13

I feel Bruce is older cause his character still comes off like something that was built in the the 40s. Which I don’t mean that in a bad way, but out of costume he still has the Howard Hughes look and presentation to him. Which again I don’t mean that in a bad way, its something I dig even.

----------


## Starrius

> I dont get it.
>  All DC has to do is make Bruce 11 years older than Dick.


Some time in the Pre-Crisis Period, Bruce was 28 years old. 
Dick was 18 years old at the time
Barbara was over 25 years old.

----------


## Starrius

> Some women see an aloof man as a challenge.  Bruce isn't too old to be sexy; after all, wasn't J Howard Marshall sexy enough for Anna Nicole Smith to fall deeply in love with him and marry him?  He pushed his own wheelchair right up to the pole at Gigi's Strip Club and staked his claim because he was INTERESTED.



Yeah
people can be well past their 30s and be sexy

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

> Some time in the Pre-Crisis Period, Bruce was 28 years old. 
> Dick was 18 years old at the time
> Barbara was over 25 years old.


Bruce was 29

----------


## Rac7d*

> True. Bruce is 30s.
> 
> However, I always feel Bruce as much older. It's because Dick (and the other Robins) I feel that way.


Bruce forever 35

----------


## Jackalope89

> Bruce forever 35


Except Batman Beyond. And Dark Knight Returns.

----------


## Starrius

> Bruce was 29


There was a Batman comic book issue that had flashback scene of his parents death 20 years ago and it referred to him as a 8 year old boy

so 28 years old

----------


## Rac7d*

> Some time in the Pre-Crisis Period, Bruce was 28 years old. 
> Dick was 18 years old at the time
> Barbara was over 25 years old.


thats imporssible he adopted him at 8?

----------


## Konja7

> thats imporssible he adopted him at 8?


Maybe I'm wrong, but Bruce doesn't adopt Dick in Pre-Crisis. Bruce was just Dick's legal guardian. 

I don't know the exact age of Dick (when he start to be Robin) in Pre-Crisis, I always thought it was between 10 and 13.

----------


## oasis1313

> thats imporssible he adopted him at 8?


As far as I know, the adoption was done away with in the latest reboot.  You look at the comics back in the 30's, Dick looked like he was in grade school.  The 1930's weren't that far away from the Victorian Period, where taking in a ward was more common.  Because people died so young, a wealthy person or family might take in a young orphan from a family in their OWN peerage, like a godson or goddaughter.  A formal adoption might be eschewed because that young orphan needed to maintain their own family name in order to keep the name and lineage from dying out--but you were essentially a son or daughter.  The whole dumb "ward" business could be made more palatable in the comic to say that Dick didn't want to be adopted because he felt it would dishonor John Grayson--but at least that would be Dick's choice.  It's an antiquated legal status that is almost never done in modern times, and nobody nowadays really understands it.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> As far as I know, the adoption was done away with in the latest reboot.  You look at the comics back in the 30's, Dick looked like he was in grade school.  The 1930's weren't that far away from the Victorian Period, where taking in a ward was more common.  Because people died so young, a wealthy person or family might take in a young orphan from a family in their OWN peerage, like a godson or goddaughter.  A formal adoption might be eschewed because that young orphan needed to maintain their own family name in order to keep the name and lineage from dying out--but you were essentially a son or daughter.  The whole dumb "ward" business could be made more palatable in the comic to say that Dick didn't want to be adopted because he felt it would dishonor John Grayson--but at least that would be Dick's choice.  It's an antiquated legal status that is almost never done in modern times, and nobody nowadays really understands it.


Wait, I thought Bruce didn't adopt Dick because it was not legitimate for a single man to adopt a kid at that time？

----------


## Rac7d*

> Maybe I'm wrong, but Bruce doesn't adopt Dick in Pre-Crisis. Bruce was just Dick's legal guardian. 
> 
> I don't know the exact age of Dick (when he start to be Robin) in Pre-Crisis, I always thought it was between 10 and 13.


adoption or not
Dick was 8 and we see him go all th way to 25- near 30 ish and Bruce  is said to always be 28.....

Even if dick is 12 or 15 were 5-10 years   Bruce didnt adopt a child at 21.... that more unbelievable then him being a 40 year old batman

----------


## oasis1313

> Wait, I thought Bruce didn't adopt Dick because it was not allowed for a single man to adopt a kid at that time？


That was over 70 years ago.  The whole "ward" thing was and is idiocy:  To say The Court is cool with a single man (or, if we don't want to age Batman--a wealthy young teenager) bringing a younger man (since we don't want to age Batman) into his home to LIVE under his roof if we call said younger male a "ward" but NOT if we call him a "son."  It doesn't matter whether you refer to the kid as a son or a ward--he's still living with a single male adult:  The result is the SAME--the kid is still in the adult's house.  Nowadays, we would have Child Protective Services doing flip-flops over this kind of situation.  It frankly LOOKS shady, just say it for how polite society would see it.  Since then we've had Bruce telling Dick he never thought about adopting him (Donna Troy's wedding) to showing he did formally adopt him (Gotham Knights # 17), and now no clear word about it in whatever passes for the latest reboot.  I'm just saying that if they want to stick with this "ward" nonsense, I'd rather have Dick decline it (that is, something that is Dick's own decision versus being due to Bruce's "forgetfulness").  In these decades since the 30's, a lot has changed legally.  I could formally adopt my nasty hoary old 90 year-old mother-in-law and call her my daughter if we both wanted to do it and paid the court fees.

----------


## Starrius

> That was over 70 years ago.  The whole "ward" thing was and is idiocy:  To say The Court is cool with a single man (or, if we don't want to age Batman--a wealthy young teenager) bringing a younger man (since we don't want to age Batman) into his home to LIVE under his roof if we call said younger male a "ward" but NOT if we call him a "son."  It doesn't matter whether you refer to the kid as a son or a ward--he's still living with a single male adult:  The result is the SAME--the kid is still in the adult's house.  Nowadays, we would have Child Protective Services doing flip-flops over this kind of situation.  It frankly LOOKS shady, just say it for how polite society would see it.  Since then we've had Bruce telling Dick he never thought about adopting him (Donna Troy's wedding) to showing he did formally adopt him (Gotham Knights # 17), and now no clear word about it in whatever passes for the latest reboot.  I'm just saying that if they want to stick with this "ward" nonsense, I'd rather have Dick decline it (that is, something that is Dick's own decision versus being due to Bruce's "forgetfulness").  In these decades since the 30's, a lot has changed legally.  I could formally adopt my nasty hoary old 90 year-old mother-in-law and call her my daughter if we both wanted to do it and paid the court fees.



I read that Dick wanted to adopt Jason after his parents were killed by Killer Croc, but Bruce took him in.

----------


## nhienphan2808

im not sure i buy that Bronse Age Bruce was 28, although it's true he looks and acts wayyy younger than Silver Age Bruce who was literally the same person should have been and more brother-like to Dick. If Dick was 18 i'd put him at 32. Really attempts to deage him have been there even back then. Probably to re establish him as a lone wolf. 

Either way i can see why they have trouble using the Titans or even determining Robin's role in the Bat mythos when Mordern Batman took place. "Ward" is such a Golden Age concept and "kid sidekick" Silver Age.

----------


## oasis1313

> I read that Dick wanted to adopt Jason after his parents were killed by Killer Croc, but Bruce took him in.


A kid like Dick can SAY he wants to adopt a kid like Jason until Hell freezes over, but he'd have to go to Court.  Since Bruce is older and so stinking filthy rich (and has raised orphans before), his chances of being granted custody would be a few million times better than Dick's.

----------


## Restingvoice

The last mention of the word adoption was in New 52 Nightwing #1 in Dick's inner monologue

Bruce is sexy, but a different type of sexy than Dick. He's dad sexy, billionaire sexy, James Bond, Daniel Craig sexy. Dick and Jason are the young adult sexy. The Vampires Diaries, Teen Wolf, Riverdale sexy.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> That was over 70 years ago.  The whole "ward" thing was and is idiocy:  To say The Court is cool with a single man (or, if we don't want to age Batman--a wealthy young teenager) bringing a younger man (since we don't want to age Batman) into his home to LIVE under his roof if we call said younger male a "ward" but NOT if we call him a "son."  It doesn't matter whether you refer to the kid as a son or a ward--he's still living with a single male adult:  The result is the SAME--the kid is still in the adult's house.  Nowadays, we would have Child Protective Services doing flip-flops over this kind of situation.  It frankly LOOKS shady, just say it for how polite society would see it.  Since then we've had Bruce telling Dick he never thought about adopting him (Donna Troy's wedding) to showing he did formally adopt him (Gotham Knights # 17), and now no clear word about it in whatever passes for the latest reboot.  I'm just saying that if they want to stick with this "ward" nonsense, I'd rather have Dick decline it (that is, something that is Dick's own decision versus being due to Bruce's "forgetfulness").  In these decades since the 30's, a lot has changed legally.  I could formally adopt my nasty hoary old 90 year-old mother-in-law and call her my daughter if we both wanted to do it and paid the court fees.


Even in Gotham Knight #17, Bruce outrightly said the adoption was just a symbolic gesture and he didn't really mean to be Dick's father. It's not forgetfulness-Bruce just regards Dick more than a son.

----------


## DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy

The Adoption has been screwed up because DC looks at Robin as something owned by Batman so they fail to modernize or make it realistic. Golden Age has plenty of Stories revolving around custody and it makes sense for the Golden Age. Batman currently has no form of Checks and Balances so he can adopt Jason Todd despite being estranged from his first adoption/ward since most stories choose to frame their story from a great conflict between the two, Then Tim Drake is an even bigger red flag as Dick was still mostly distant and a college drop out who has had multiple jobs & Jason officially died by choking. No current court would have even allowed the Batman Of Year One to take in a Kid, The Golden Age Batman WAS engaged at the early stages of Robin’s start to Julie Madison and was a mild mannered wealthy socialite who hung out with the commissioner of police so there would be little resistance. This is why the story of adoption is mostly skipped because they would logically have to make modern adjustments that would likely result in none of the 1st 3 Robin’s getting adopted. Dick would probably be given to his Cousin Charles Grayson who is really from Earth Two but DC has already added so many aspects of that world to his own. Jason would have to be given to the state and a Wayne Foundation Residence and Tim would still have his Parents but fans would not except this.

----------


## Vinsanity

I am not gonna lie and I know people dislike it but the whole Ric thing is actually somewhat interesting. I guess cause I know it is not going to last and also it is a weirdly nice perspective of Grayson seeing what he did. 

Yeah never thought I would think that.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Also nice girl. Gives me Kory vibes all over. It's rare that you see him this happy and relaxed. It just sucks that he has to lose all his memories to be that.

----------


## WonderNight

> I am not gonna lie and I know people dislike it but the whole Ric thing is actually somewhat interesting. I guess cause I know it is not going to last and also it is a weirdly nice perspective of Grayson seeing what he did. 
> 
> Yeah never thought I would think that.


I really don't even care about this Ric grayson stuff.What I care about is what comes next, Will we finally get a new and improved nightwing or the same old same old isolated mediocre nightwing with no respect or interest from DC. Ric is just a short term thing.

----------


## Rakiduam

> I am not gonna lie and I know people dislike it but the whole Ric thing is actually somewhat interesting. I guess cause I know it is not going to last and also it is a weirdly nice perspective of Grayson seeing what he did. 
> 
> Yeah never thought I would think that.


It's already lasting too long.

----------


## Ascended

> Also nice girl. Gives me Kory vibes all over. It's rare that you see him this happy and relaxed. *It just sucks that he has to lose all his memories to be that*.


Im not reading the story, but isn't this whole thing (the bolded) sort of missing the point of Nightwing? Dick's supposed to be the happy, relaxed one. Oh, he can brood and be angsty with the best of them, but Dick's not a tortured, twisted soul like Bruce or the other Bats. Dick's a well adjusted, happy dude, despite everything he's seen and been through. I always thought that was one of the main points of his character; that he didn't bend to the darkness like Bruce did. 

If it's taking the loss of memory for Dick to act like a happy, relaxed guy, isn't that really just showing how poorly DC understands the character?

----------


## Godlike13

He’s only happy and relaxed cause he’s literally a bum who doesn’t do anything. And ya, it’s not like he was a unhappy as Nightwing.

----------


## Konja7

> Im not reading the story, but isn't this whole thing (the bolded) sort of missing the point of Nightwing? Dick's supposed to be the happy, relaxed one. Oh, he can brood and be angsty with the best of them, but Dick's not a tortured, twisted soul like Bruce or the other Bats. Dick's a well adjusted, happy dude, despite everything he's seen and been through. I always thought that was one of the main points of his character; that he didn't bend to the darkness like Bruce did. 
> 
> If it's taking the loss of memory for Dick to act like a happy, relaxed guy, isn't that really just showing how poorly DC understands the character?


To be fair, it is difficult to define the personality of Dick (and any character with so big story) based on their past, since different writers have handled the character in different ways. 


For example: Dick wasn't the happy and relaxed guy in New Teen Titans. He was pretty serious.

----------


## nhienphan2808

I mean like he sometimes has to try very hard to be happy and strong FOR the bats. The girl gives me Kory vibes because he can talk so much about himself with her.

----------


## Armor of God

I really think DC should have just given the book to Kelly and Lanzing after Seeley. Infact I wish Seeley had finished his 48 or so issues as well.

----------


## OWL45

> To be fair, it is difficult to define the personality of Dick (and any character with so big story) based on their past, since different writers have handled the character in different ways. 
> 
> 
> For example: Dick wasn't the happy and relaxed guy in New Teen Titans. He was pretty serious.


I agree and I dont think a lot of people realize that. Its hard for me to really take the character seriously at times due to how he is written. I personally find him more interesting on the Titans show then in most of the comics. He is written more serious with much more substance.

----------


## Godlike13

Serious doesn’t mean he was unhappy. He was working through insecurities during NTT, and he took his leadership role seriously. 

Ric is a delusional bum with brain trauma. A resulting tradgedy who they are having hide and run away. Hes a loser that his writers are lazily trying to glorify as “happy”, but he’s not happy. He’s ignorant. His whole character is honestly just insulting and lazy. His current writers are masking and avoiding the real truth behind his character, and the true intentions of shooting him in the head, and are instead basically just trying to polishing a turd. Turning him into an alternative character rather then really confront what Ric and him being shot really is. Ric is not something that should be glorified. Hes a tradgedy. Hes the result of head trauma, and an act that was design to hurt Batman. They are trying to make him come off cool and happy, but really he’s just pathetic. A ignorant bum who’s an embarrassment compared to the man he was. Which is the tradgedy of his situation. But instead of exploring that they are, like said before, treating him like an alternative or another character.  
Though this unintentional conflict with Ric’s character and how his current creators are presenting him makes sense. As Ric was not their idea, but something lazily made up last minute that they are now trying to figure out themselves. And it’s easier for them to treat him as an alternative character then really explore him as the tradgedy he represents or tradgedy of his situation.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm not even gonna argue against Ric right now. I just want all of these to end. These past months felt like a year. The Ric storyline is dragging itself.

----------


## Ascended

> To be fair, it is difficult to define the personality of Dick (and any character with so big story) based on their past, since different writers have handled the character in different ways. 
> 
> For example: Dick wasn't the happy and relaxed guy in New Teen Titans. He was pretty serious.


Sure, looking at the full history of characters who have existed for 70-80 years, you'll find all manner of characterizations. But that doesn't mean there is no characterization at all. There is still (when done right anyway) a degree of consistency. We wouldn't accept (for example) Superman becoming a zero tolerance killer who melts every small time criminal with heat vision, even though Clark has indeed killed in the past and some versions have literally melted criminals with heat vision. 

To that end, Dick has usually run somewhere between "serious and focused" to "optimistic and happy." He can be, and has been, a broody, angsty d-bag but typically he doesn't run too far into "depressing or dark." I mean, he's not some fool who's always smiling, joking, and trying to hug people like a lot of twitter thinks he is, but he's generally a pretty happy, satisfied guy.

----------


## Restingvoice

Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant

DsjoO2dVAAAbCxn.jpg

----------


## Rac7d*

> Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant
> 
> DsjoO2dVAAAbCxn.jpg


I want this game

----------


## Celgress

> Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant
> 
> DsjoO2dVAAAbCxn.jpg


very nice  :Smile:

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> If you hate the arc so much than why do you bother to keep reading it? Is it really that difficult to simply not read the book until it gets a permanent writer?


Not him but I read the arc because I thought every writer deserves a chance.
Now I only read it because I love Moore's art.

----------


## byrd156

> Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant
> 
> DsjoO2dVAAAbCxn.jpg


I hope that means things will be changing soon.

The Nightwing symbol with bullet holes in it feels like a good metaphor for this era.

----------


## Godlike13

What I like about the variant is how Batgirl and Red Hood has these new suits while Nightwing does not, LoL.

----------


## WonderNight

> Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant
> 
> DsjoO2dVAAAbCxn.jpg


Beautiful art but in tired of batfamily nightwing honestly. How about the " most connected hero" who's the "heart of the DCU" start you know interacting and being apart of the DCU? 

How about some nightwing and booster gold or nightwing and Constantine or nightwing and cyborg cover for once.

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

The memory loss might have been better for Grayson. Watching a double agent forget he is a double agent could've upped the tension.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> The memory loss might have been better for Grayson. Watching a double agent forget he is a double agent could've upped the tension.


Helena would slap him :Wink:

----------


## oasis1313

> Tyler Kirkham Nightwing #55 variant
> 
> Attachment 74090


It's probably like the nice #51 variant that was pretty and had nothing to do with the story.  Dick's hair won't be grown back out by # 55.

----------


## TheSupernaut

What if Dick led a team of highly skilled covert heroes, dedicated to taking down looming threats in secret. okay yeah I know it sounds a lot like Young Justice but the roster would also consist of Green Arrow, Black Canary, Kitana, Zatanna and Azrael(?)

----------


## Vinsanity

> What if Dick led a team of highly skilled covert heroes, dedicated to taking down looming threats in secret. okay yeah I know it sounds a lot like Young Justice but the roster would also consist of Green Arrow, Black Canary, Kitana, Zatanna and Azrael(?)


Honestly I'm over Dick Grayson and teams.

Just that every time he is in a team, he's written blah or like Bruceish

----------


## WonderNight

> Honestly I'm over Dick Grayson and teams.
> 
> Just that every time he is in a team, he's written blah or like Bruceish


This is how I feel with dick and the batfamily.

Outside of wanting dick and steph as partners and some dick and Damian, dick and bruce from time to time I want dick out in the greater dcu being his own man.

----------


## Restingvoice

> What I like about the variant is how Batgirl and Red Hood has these new suits while Nightwing does not, LoL.


That reminds me. Wasn't there a new Nightwing costume for a future cover of Titans where the only change they made was to thicken the Nightwing symbol that eventually they don't get to use because of the present disaster?

----------


## the illustrious mr. kenway

> What if Dick led a team of highly skilled covert heroes, dedicated to taking down looming threats in secret. okay yeah I know it sounds a lot like Young Justice but the roster would also consist of Green Arrow, Black Canary, Kitana, Zatanna and Azrael(?)


Before Simone's reinvention, you just described the Secret six. It can't hurt to try that again.

Titans is better at being a Dick Grayson show with the occasional guest star than it is being a Titans show. The team is fine but Dick got too much focus to point where they should have just done a Dick Grayson in Bludhaven show and brought in the others in the 2/3rd season.

Honestly bruce fares worse because they made him feel abusive. Maybe that version is the Frank miller version?

Initially i saw the memory loss as them trying to do Knightfall for Dick. Instead of a physical threat they took away his memory/expierences. So i think its a decent arc but the outside baggage colors the expierence.

Its probably not where nightwing should be headed tho.

----------


## yohyoi

> Honestly I'm over Dick Grayson and teams.
> 
> Just that every time he is in a team, he's written blah or like Bruceish


You must have only read Abnett's Titans. Dick is great in teams. You got shows of him leading teams. You got books of him leading teams. He led like every team in DC at one point.

----------


## yohyoi

> What I like about the variant is how Batgirl and Red Hood has these new suits while Nightwing does not, LoL.


Well, Nightwing has a very good suit. It's as good as Batman. You can't completely change it because it's perfect. Batgirl and Red Hood had okay suits, but not Nightwing and Batman level.

----------


## Badou

Oh my posts got deleted. I don't think I said anything where they deserved to be deleted to be honest. 

I stand by my statement that people who support poorly managed crap like the current direction give up their right in complaining about how DC treats characters with bad forced directions and lack of effort. It is fans that just go with whatever DC does, fans that even defend it, empower DC to just continue their actions and mistreatment of characters and series.

----------


## yohyoi

> Oh my posts got deleted. I don't think I said anything where they deserved to be deleted to be honest. 
> 
> I stand by my statement that people who support poorly managed crap like the current direction give up their right in complaining about how DC treats characters with bad forced directions and lack of effort. It is fans that just go with whatever DC does, fans that even defend it, empower DC to just continue their actions and mistreatment of characters and series.


Everyone has their opinions and the right to say what they want. I hate Ric but I won't stop people from speaking their mind.

----------


## Badou

> Everyone has their opinions and the right to say what they want. I hate Ric but I won't stop people from speaking their mind.


No, that is fine. I didn't mean they couldn't complain, like censor them, but I just have no respect for people that support bad management regardless but then in a different instance will say that the management is bad. If you support decisions that are poorly created then you are complicit in how DC treats and views a character or material going forward and are part of the problem in why DC can do what they do with no consequences.

----------


## yohyoi

> No, that is fine. I didn't mean they couldn't complain, like censor them, but I just have no respect for people that support bad management regardless but then in a different instance will say that the management is bad. If you support decisions that are poorly created then you are complicit in how DC treats and views a character or material going forward and are part of the problem in why DC can do what they do with no consequences.


True but the same goes in very fandom. Star Wars fans will watch Star Wars films no matter how much they hate it. Prequels, sequels, games, etc. It's like an addiction for some.

----------


## Godlike13

> Well, Nightwing has a very good suit. It's as good as Batman. You can't completely change it because it's perfect. Batgirl and Red Hood had okay suits, but not Nightwing and Batman level.


Its more the principle. They went out and got new designs for new suits, to really help signify and market their new directions. Where with Nightwing they did jack crap, LoL.

----------


## yohyoi

> Its more the principle. They went out and got new designs for new suits, to really help signify and market their new directions. Where with Nightwing they did jack crap, LoL.


Maybe for the best. Ric wearing a Nightwing suit will give me nightmares.

----------


## Konja7

> You must have only read Abnett's Titans. Dick is great in teams. You got shows of him leading teams. You got books of him leading teams. He led like every team in DC at one point.


Well, that depends what you understand for Brucish? 

It's true that Dick in teams tend to be more serious and grumpy.

----------


## Restingvoice

The line art for Nightwing's face before it's edited to float on Ric's drink in Nightwing #53

Dsk_i9VU8AAdNOD.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> True but the same goes in very fandom. Star Wars fans will watch Star Wars films no matter how much they hate it. Prequels, sequels, games, etc. It's like an addiction for some.


Eh I love it all. Different strokes.

----------


## Vinsanity

> You must have only read Abnett's Titans. Dick is great in teams. You got shows of him leading teams. You got books of him leading teams. He led like every team in DC at one point.


Yeah but all the team it is him backstabbing (Titans in the 90's), or him being like Brucish (Titans, Outsiders)

Just get him away from teams but not team ups.

He can be great in a team but he hasn't been written good in a team since NTT back in the 80's

----------


## Darkspellmaster

> Yeah but all the team it is him backstabbing (Titans in the 90's), or him being like Brucish (Titans, Outsiders)
> 
> Just get him away from teams but not team ups.
> 
> He can be great in a team but he hasn't been written good in a team since NTT back in the 80's


Wouldn't  his turn as team captain of YJ count as being written well? He managed for the most part to keep them all together.

----------


## oasis1313

> The line art for Nightwing's face before it's edited to float on Ric's drink in Nightwing #53
> 
> Dsk_i9VU8AAdNOD.jpg


Travis draws so good.  I wish he could stay on Nightwing for a long time to come.

----------


## Godlike13

> Yeah but all the team it is him backstabbing (Titans in the 90's), or him being like Brucish (Titans, Outsiders)
> 
> Just get him away from teams but not team ups.
> 
> He can be great in a team but he hasn't been written good in a team since NTT back in the 80's


JL Obsidian Age was the last time he was great on a team imo. 

But I think it’s important to note that his teams and the team books themselves weren’t very good in general since NTTs. Plus for some reason they keep putting writers on his team books that don’t think favorably of him. Winick, now Abnett.

----------


## WonderNight

> JL Obsidian Age was the last time he was great on a team imo. 
> 
> But I think it’s important to note that his teams and the team books themselves weren’t very good in general since NTTs. Plus for some reason they keep putting writers on his team books that don’t think favorably of him. Winick, now Abnett.


I think one of the reasons they dont think favorably about is because they want him to be batman but not batman at they same time.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think one of the reasons they dont think favorably about is because they want him to be batman but not batman at they same time.


If you're talking about DC, I think there's some degree of resentment because Dick Grayson is nearly 80 years old and he has a large, devout fan base that LOVES him.  Wingnuts won't be told what to like or not to like; they are 1000% on Dick's side and only want what is best for him.  And Dick will be around long after Didio and the rest of these guys are history.

----------


## byrd156

I think about Higgins' Nightwing #29 a lot. I remember writing a review back when I was on my high school newspaper. I saw some guys talking about it on Twitter and I went back again to read it. I really love this issue, it shows you why stories like "Ric Grayson" are so stupid. Dick knows who he is as a person and as a hero. It feels like a bible for how the character should act. I wish the current creative team would've at-least read this one issue before doing this arc.

----------


## Arsenal

> I think about Higgins' Nightwing #29 a lot. I remember writing a review back when I was on my high school newspaper. I saw some guys talking about it on Twitter and I went back again to read it. I really love this issue, it shows you why stories like "Ric Grayson" are so stupid. Dick knows who he is as a person and as a hero. It feels like a bible for how the character should act. I wish the current creative team would've at-least read this one issue before doing this arc.


Normally I’d agree if it was standard Dick Grayson that was being written. But it isn’t. Cause, you know, he got shot in the head. 

Regardless of how one may feel about “Ric”, he is more or less being written as how somebody would act after serious TBI. Or atleast how most entertainment writers seem to believe they are supposed to act.

(atleast to entertainment writers standards).

----------


## Badou

> Normally Id agree if it was standard Dick Grayson that was being written. But it isnt. Cause, you know, he got shot in the head. 
> 
> Regardless of how one may feel about Ric, he is more or less being written as how somebody would act after serious TBI. Or atleast how most entertainment writers seem to believe they are supposed to act.
> 
> (atleast to entertainment writers standards).


I don't think he is though, which is the big problem in the arc. None of his actions really makes sense for someone that was shot in the head and only had memories up until his parents died. 

Sure, it makes sense he wouldn't want to be a hero anymore, since he doesn't have the connection or memories of it, but it makes no sense for him to call himself Ric when his parents called him Dick. It makes no sense he would run off to Bludhaven when he had no connection to it outside being a hero. It should be the last place he would want to be since he is constantly being reminded of his past as a hero there. Not once has he questioned what happened to Haly's Circus or looked into trying to find any people he would have known from it. Not once has he thought about his parents or even went to see where they are buried. The amount of people who have even checked in on him show how shallow his connections are in the DUC as well now. 

Typically in entertainment someone who got amnesia after a traumatic event would go back to where their memories cut off and try and pick up from there. Like we saw with Bruce. It was a study of what his life could have been like if he had never been a hero or carried the burden/obsession of trying to fight crime. Alfred wanted to give him that. Then Bruce had to make a choice about going back to that life. Dick hasn't done any of that. There has been no character study of who he is as a character. He is bumming around not really doing anything, breaking into people's houses to sleep there and eat there food for some reason, hanging out in some bar that was just introduced, and is a taxi driver now because they needed an excuse for him to drive around at night. 

Of course this is all a result of outside forces dictating the direction. The reason he is in Bludhaven is because DC wants to isolate him there while things like HiC are going on I think, and also, if rumors are true, they wanted to take Dick off the table in order for when King has Bruce "die" or stop being Batman King wanted someone else other than Dick to become the new Batman. So for that to happen Dick had to he shelved and that is why he have this story, but the real shame is that if they had to have this story they put in no effort to make it anything memorable or interesting, it is so unbelievably lazy and poorly constructed, and that probably is more insulting than actually shooting him in the head. Since it shows how they value the character.

----------


## Restingvoice

On top of all that, it's still a copy of Bruce's amnesia story. A new love interest, a new job, a dad figure who wants their kid to live free from crimefighting, replacement heroes, and a back up memory device. Worse, the replacement hero is someone new and I have no reason to care. At least with Gordon and Duke I was actually interested. If it's not lazy, it's a quickly scrambled story because the previous writer left.

----------


## Godlike13

> Normally I’d agree if it was standard Dick Grayson that was being written. But it isn’t. Cause, you know, he got shot in the head. 
> 
> Regardless of how one may feel about “Ric”, he is more or less being written as how somebody would act after serious TBI. Or atleast how most entertainment writers seem to believe they are supposed to act.
> 
> (atleast to entertainment writers standards).


No he’s not, not even a little. His brain trauma is being brushed off. Cause hobo Ric is too cool for that. They are not actually exploring the trauma of his injury, or even portraying it as a trauma, and instead have just used it as a device to write him as a new character. It’s just lazy. And what’s more his writers are failing to even make this new character interesting.

----------


## Arsenal

All I’m saying is that “Ric” shouldn’t be written like the Dick seen in Higgins NW#29. After Batman 55,  Dick should be *temporarily* written differently than usual because getting shot in the head should make him act differently. 

I’m not defending nor denying the questionable creative decisions made for or the execution of the “Ric Grayson” story so far. To me, Ric’s behavior more or less lines up with how somebody with TBI tends to be written in entertainment.

----------


## Rakiduam

> All I’m saying is that “Ric” shouldn’t be written like the Dick seen in Higgins NW#29. After Batman 55,  Dick should be *temporarily* written differently than usual because getting shot in the head should make him act differently. 
> 
> I’m not defending nor denying the questionable creative decisions made for or the execution of the “Ric Grayson” story so far. To me, Ric’s behavior more or less lines up with how somebody with TBI tends to be written in entertainment.


That is pretty much the flaw of this kind of stories. Ric is not Dick Grayson nor is Nightwing, edditorial has never allowed worldbuilding for the character so there aren't familiar elements the character could be reacting to, nor connections nor investment to the readers.

On top of it a writer that has failed to write for the character as it was before. This is treated like an original character that would desapear in a while. Why would anyone care?

----------


## byrd156

> All I’m saying is that “Ric” shouldn’t be written like the Dick seen in Higgins NW#29. After Batman 55,  Dick should be *temporarily* written differently than usual because getting shot in the head should make him act differently. 
> 
> I’m not defending nor denying the questionable creative decisions made for or the execution of the “Ric Grayson” story so far. To me, Ric’s behavior more or less lines up with how somebody with TBI tends to be written in entertainment.


First off I never said Dick *had or should* be written like he was in NW #29 for this story. I said that it felt like a bible for how he should act. Two very different things, the main point of that post was to steer discussion towards a Dick Grayson bible. You know what a character bible is? In short it's how the character acts, almost like a template. So any writer coming in can read it and have a very basic level of understanding of the character depending on the detail of said bible. Every writer or company has one and I'm curious what Dick's looks like, how it's changed over the years, or if he currently even has one right now. The creative team going into this arc doesn't feel like they know who he is. Knowing who the character is let's you know who he isn't. From there you can build a solid foundation of how Dick is different pre and post-headshot. Let's say you are doing a story about an amnesiac Superman, how do you go about it? What is the goal of the story? Is it just about him retaining those superhuman feats and continuing his life or does he become someone else entirely? If he does than what are you trying to do or say with the story? The main real difference between Dick and Ric (other than general outlook, design, thoughts on being a hero, etc) is that Ric does his heroing reduncantlantly or as almost a survival instinct. Is this story saying that Dick would've always been a heroic person if the situation was fight or flight or that without Bruce's training Dick would just be a normal guy not stepping into help? 

This story feels more like Scott Lobdell transplanting himself in Ric's place. Enjoying the discovery of him becoming a superhero and commenting about how cool and awesome the life is while also complaining about it as if those complaints were actual development or depth. We are 4 issues into this story and the only meaningful things that happened was Scarecrow escaping Arkham (like always), Dick being a homeless criminal, and some cops finding his old hideout. There is very little reflection or introspection, no deep character work, no meaning about Nightwing's importance to Bludhaven other than some cops putting on old outfits. It's just a fill-in arc that was hyped to be something more than it really is. Deconstructionist stories like these I think have been so overdone in the modern age of comics, writers and readers seem more interested in how characters should act in relation to today's world or break a character down to their essentials and display what they think that means in relation to the world. These stories are so played out, they peaked with Watchmen and DKR back in the 80s. Batman just had the same amnesiac, who am I, what do I represent blah blah blah arc, Aquaman is going through the same thing, they did it poorly with Donna when they brought her back, it is so tiring. We keep going through the same cycle of stories, most are worse than the version before it.

----------


## Arsenal

> First off I never said Dick *had or should* be written like he was in NW #29 for this story. I said that it felt like a bible for how he should act. Two very different things, the main point of that post was to steer discussion towards a Dick Grayson bible. You know what a character bible is? In short it's how the character acts, almost like a template. So any writer coming in can read it and have a very basic level of understanding of the character depending on the detail of said bible. Every writer or company has one and I'm curious what Dick's looks like, how it's changed over the years, or if he currently even has one right now. The creative team going into this arc doesn't feel like they know who he is. Knowing who the character is let's you know who he isn't. From there you can build a solid foundation of how Dick is different pre and post-headshot. Let's say you are doing a story about an amnesiac Superman, how do you go about it? What is the goal of the story? Is it just about him retaining those superhuman feats and continuing his life or does he become someone else entirely? If he does than what are you trying to do or say with the story? The main real difference between Dick and Ric (other than general outlook, design, thoughts on being a hero, etc) is that Ric does his heroing reduncantlantly or as almost a survival instinct. Is this story saying that Dick would've always been a heroic person if the situation was fight or flight or that without Bruce's training Dick would just be a normal guy not stepping into help? 
> 
> This story feels more like Scott Lobdell transplanting himself in Ric's place. Enjoying the discovery of him becoming a superhero and commenting about how cool and awesome the life is while also complaining about it as if those complaints were actual development or depth. We are 4 issues into this story and the only meaningful things that happened was Scarecrow escaping Arkham (like always), Dick being a homeless criminal, and some cops finding his old hideout. There is very little reflection or introspection, no deep character work, no meaning about Nightwing's importance to Bludhaven other than some cops putting on old outfits. It's just a fill-in arc that was hyped to be something more than it really is. Deconstructionist stories like these I think have been so overdone in the modern age of comics, writers and readers seem more interested in how characters should act in relation to today's world or break a character down to their essentials and display what they think that means in relation to the world. These stories are so played out, they peaked with Watchmen and DKR back in the 80s. Batman just had the same amnesiac, who am I, what do I represent blah blah blah arc, Aquaman is going through the same thing, they did it poorly with Donna when they brought her back, it is so tiring. We keep going through the same cycle of stories, most are worse than the version before it.


So I completely misinterpreted what you were saying and we were talking about 2 different things. My bad. Glad that’s cleared up.

I do think there was a potentially interesting story to tell with the “Ric” story. It’s not the one we’re getting, but I’m sure there’s a version that is.

----------


## byrd156

> So I completely misinterpreted what you were saying and we were talking about 2 different things. My bad. Glad that’s cleared up.
> 
> I do think there was a potentially interesting story to tell with the “Ric” story. It’s not the one we’re getting, but I’m sure there’s a version that is.


There's a good version of every story, it just doesn't always happen.

----------


## Godlike13

I think the last Titans episode had Dicks best fight scene yet. Overall I didn’t think it was the strongest episode, but that’s fight scene really stood out to me. With Dick all drugged out and clearly exhausted, but Rachel looks at him and he just has to. I just thought that was really good. And every episode we get closer and closer to Nightwing.

----------


## Jackalope89

And Rachel can "take it back". Wasn't expecting that twist, but it worked.

But man, poor Gar. Can't say I blame him for snapping like that.

----------


## OWL45

> I think the last Titans episode had Dicks best fight scene yet. Overall I didnt think it was the strongest episode, but thats fight scene really stood out to me. With Dick all drugged out and clearly exhausted, but Rachel looks at him and he just has to. I just thought that was really good. And every episode we get closer and closer to Nightwing.


Im loving Titans. The best portrayal of Dick Grayson in any medium to date.

----------


## byrd156

> I’m loving Titans. The best portrayal of Dick Grayson in any medium to date.


Oomph. It's not bad but "the best portrayal"? I would put it above Chris O'Donnel and the current crop of animated movies but nowhere near Batman 66, BTAS, YJ, and TT.

----------


## oasis1313

> I think the last Titans episode had Dicks best fight scene yet. Overall I didn’t think it was the strongest episode, but that’s fight scene really stood out to me. With Dick all drugged out and clearly exhausted, but Rachel looks at him and he just has to. I just thought that was really good. And every episode we get closer and closer to Nightwing.


I had to rerun it and watch it again.  That fight scene knocked my socks off, even more than the episode a few weeks back when Dick's sheer skill mixed with (dare I say it?) brutality, frightened Hank Hall; you can begin to see how Dick (especially the "child of light" in him that first came--or got dragged--to Wayne Manor) has come to understand what Bruce has made out of him--and that he also understood that Bruce did the best he was capable of.  I loved his scenes with Rachel, where she finds him and brings him back by reminding him that he promised never to leave her--just as a couple of weeks ago he was able to reach into her demonic self and bring her back with a bear hug.   I want THESE guys (the two guys who wrote that fight scene) to be the new creative team on the Nightwing book (although if they're writing screenplays, they probably wouldn't take the pay cut DC would offer).  Dick would be the best dad ever!

----------


## byrd156

> I think the last Titans episode had Dicks best fight scene yet. Overall I didn’t think it was the strongest episode, but that’s fight scene really stood out to me. With Dick all drugged out and clearly exhausted, but Rachel looks at him and he just has to. I just thought that was really good. And every episode we get closer and closer to Nightwing.


I enjoy the ideas that the writers are trying to do but the execution has been so eh. I never liked the idea of such a so strained relationship with Bruce that either one of them starts to hate or obsess over the other but that's the shows direction so whatever. It just feels so CW, so over dramatic without the gravitas or meaning to it. The burning of the costume or him fighting himself were good ideas but just feel off to me. It's probably because we have never seen him and Bruce together or how Dick was when he a younger Robin. There's all this implied stuff, Dick's character as we have seen him has always been angry at everything with the exception of the circus and Dove. We never see how, why, or what changed Dick while he was with Bruce. Just that he got more brutal over time and got Zucco killed. (which I hated)

----------


## oasis1313

> I enjoy the ideas that the writers are trying to do but the execution has been so eh. I never liked the idea of such a so strained relationship with Bruce that either one of them starts to hate or obsess over the other but that's the shows direction so whatever. It just feels so CW, so over dramatic without the gravitas or meaning to it. The burning of the costume or him fighting himself were good ideas but just feel off to me. It's probably because we have never seen him and Bruce together or how Dick was when he a younger Robin. There's all this implied stuff, Dick's character as we have seen him has always been angry at everything with the exception of the circus and Dove. We never see how, why, or what changed Dick while he was with Bruce. Just that he got more brutal over time and got Zucco killed. (which I hated)


They've been slowly dribbling out various reveals.  I think it's already showing that things are thawing between Bruce and Dick--first he cuts off Dick's access to intelligence and safe houses--then restores them when Dick needs them.  He didn't call the cops when Dick took off with his Porsche.  Dick hasn't talked smack about Bruce, and Bruce made sure that Dick got the photos of his murdered friends,

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> They've been slowly dribbling out various reveals.  I think it's already showing that things are thawing between Bruce and Dick--first he cuts off Dick's access to intelligence and safe houses--then restores them when Dick needs them.  He didn't call the cops when Dick took off with his Porsche.  Dick hasn't talked smack about Bruce, and Bruce made sure that Dick got the photos of his murdered friends,


Yeah, a cold war between Bruce and Dick is unavoidable in every version of Nightwing's origin story(except Judas Contract) I am glad it shows that they still care about each other.

----------


## byrd156

> They've been slowly dribbling out various reveals.  I think it's already showing that things are thawing between Bruce and Dick--first he cuts off Dick's access to intelligence and safe houses--then restores them when Dick needs them.  He didn't call the cops when Dick took off with his Porsche.  Dick hasn't talked smack about Bruce, and Bruce made sure that Dick got the photos of his murdered friends,


I don't think that's really enough, if we had at-least one scene I would agree with you.

----------


## WonderNight

> I think the last Titans episode had Dicks best fight scene yet. Overall I didn’t think it was the strongest episode, but that’s fight scene really stood out to me. With Dick all drugged out and clearly exhausted, but Rachel looks at him and he just has to. I just thought that was really good. And every episode we get closer and closer to Nightwing.


yeah dick looks great when he doesn't have to job for batman.

----------


## yohyoi

I'm loving Titans tv. Best thing DC put out this year. But its' basically the Dick Grayson show of my dreams. Which is why I love it so much. Robin will always be a sidekick and Batman's help. Dick does not need that. He is more than Batman. And Titans are giving it. A Robin who grew up and got out of the damn Batman's shadow. No more bowing to the footsteps of BatGod.

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## yohyoi

> yeah dick looks great when he doesn't have to job for batman.


Dick can also develop as a character instead of being props to Bruce's never ending drama. Dick in the show has struggles and complexities no portrayal of him has ever done. He isn't another Robin caricature with given personality traits to differ himself from Batman and other Robins. Dick is actually a human with relatable good and bad parts. This is the Dick Grayson who can stand outside Batman.

It's time to grow up. Kill Robin and let Nightwing be born.

----------


## WonderNight

> Dick can also develop as a character instead of being props to Bruce's never ending drama. Dick in the show has struggles and complexities no portrayal of him has ever done. He isn't another Robin caricature with given personality traits to differ himself from Batman and other Robins. Dick is actually a human with relatable good and bad parts. This is the Dick Grayson who can stand outside Batman.
> 
> It's time to grow up. Kill Robin and let Nightwing be born.


If only he could start being that in the comics. But would DC and his "fans" let him?

I was listening to a batman podcast a few weeks ago. The question was what would they do if they had control over the bat office, one of the casters said he'd cancel nightwing and put dick in a robin's book! :Mad: . Yeah thats exactly what dick needs so he can get out of batman's shadow and be his own man and be less redundent. :Confused: . 

You gota love these "fans".

----------


## Robanker

> I enjoy the ideas that the writers are trying to do but the execution has been so eh. I never liked the idea of such a so strained relationship with Bruce that either one of them starts to hate or obsess over the other but that's the shows direction so whatever. It just feels so CW, so over dramatic without the gravitas or meaning to it. The burning of the costume or him fighting himself were good ideas but just feel off to me. It's probably because we have never seen him and Bruce together or how Dick was when he a younger Robin. There's all this implied stuff, Dick's character as we have seen him has always been angry at everything with the exception of the circus and Dove. We never see how, why, or what changed Dick while he was with Bruce. Just that he got more brutal over time and got Zucco killed. (which I hated)


I was able to rationalize the Zucco thing in that unlike in Batman Begins, where really nothing is stopping Bruce from saving Ra's, Dick probably would have just gotten completely perforated had he tried to save Zucco. Could he have? Yes, and he should have tried, but there was a present danger and it's supposed to be a turning point, so he let him die. That he admits his inaction was just as damning as pulling the trigger gave me hope that he'd never let someone else die by his hand because he's not giving himself that same excuse. 


Spoilers for Titans episode 7:
*spoilers:*
Then come episode 7, he beats some guards within an inch of their life and holds fast, doubling down on the concept that he will not kill... Until he tells Starfire to nuke the place and cook all of them alive. And lets her. Yikes.

Dunno, that's a line I can't really follow Dick across and I'll give it the next episode to see how it's handled or if they evacuated off panel, but I'm pretty sure Dick just signed off on several murders.
*end of spoilers*

There seemed to be a lot of emphasis on Dick doing what he can to shed his darker impulses and, while narrative structure does demand there be a low point they rise from, this dug a bit too deep. Really hoping Titans bounces back because it's the last place I can really get any stories with Dick Grayson since his book is unreadable.




> If only he could start being that in the comics. But would DC and his "fans" let him?
> 
> I was listening to a batman podcast a few weeks ago. The question was what would they do if they had control over the bat office, one of the casters said he'd cancel nightwing and put dick in a robin's book!. Yeah thats exactly what dick needs so he can get out of batman's shadow and be his own man and be less redundent.. 
> 
> You gota love these "fans".


I'm not against Dick being in a Robins book, actually! It's his mantle, his legacy, and he's got a lot of kids who picked it up. I think it'd be fun to have him show up and start mentoring them like a summer program in Bludhaven. Jason wouldn't show, but I think Tim and Damian would. Tim because he'd always be willing to learn and Damian because he's always out to prove he's the best, regardless if he is or isn't. I imagine it'd be a fun read. Probably why it'll never happen.

Dick will never get out of Batman's shadow so-to-speak because he's a part of it. Batman /and/ Robin. The dynamic duo. The shadow casts far because it's a team's. Like Power Girl who solidified a home with the JSA, she's still a part of the Super Family and Dick's always going to be part of the Bat family. He's the good son. The dark heir. Embrace it and roll with it. As fans, I think we should move out of the rebellious "he's not his dad" phase. Dick's also a walking team-up book with ties to the entire DCU. The only way to not just make Dick another also-ran is to embrace the totality of his history. Embrace Robin. Embrace the Titans. Embrace the Outsiders. Embrace his stints as Batman. Agent 37. Sometimes a brooding figure, sometimes a cheerful swashbuckler, and sometimes both. All of it.

He already is his own man. Just tell stories about it.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Dick will never get out of Batman's shadow so-to-speak because he's a part of it. Batman /and/ Robin. The dynamic duo. The shadow casts far because it's a team's. Like Power Girl who solidified a home with the JSA, she's still a part of the Super Family and Dick's always going to be part of the Bat family. He's the good son. The dark heir. Embrace it and roll with it. As fans, I think we should move out of the rebellious "he's not his dad" phase. Dick's also a walking team-up book with ties to the entire DCU. The only way to not just make Dick another also-ran is to embrace the totality of his history. Embrace Robin. Embrace the Titans. Embrace the Outsiders. Embrace his stints as Batman. Agent 37. Sometimes a brooding figure, sometimes a cheerful swashbuckler, and sometimes both. All of it.
> 
> He already is his own man. Just tell stories about it.


Very well said. I hope DC could listen to this.

----------


## WonderNight

> Very well said. I hope DC could listen to this.


ric grayson says otherwise. He's as much his own as Duke Thomas and Harper row. No getting out of batman's shadow is the whole point of nightwing! It doesn't mean forgetting dick's past it means not living in it.

If dick can't get out of the shadow than have him go back to Robin or just retire him because then there's no point.

----------


## Robanker

> ric grayson says otherwise. He's as much his own as Duke Thomas and Harper row. No getting out of batman's shadow is the whole point of nightwing! It doesn't mean forgetting dick's past it means not living in it.


Sure, but he doesn't need to go full New Teen Titans and not appear in Bat books anymore. The only thing holding him back is DC allowing him to be used as a prop for Batman. Changing that alone allows him to fully be his own character because he doesn't need anything else. I think the Haly's Casino idea I've seen floating around is an inspired one. Place it in Bludhaven and build that town into a sleazier side of crime, but really he just needs editorial to stop treating him as expendable. This won't really happen, though, because DC thinks everyone is so if it serves Batman. Re: Three Flashes vs. Catwoman, an exercise in contrivance.

Ric Grayson isn't because he's not by any stretch his own man, as said, it's because the resident dungeon master of DC, Dan Didio, doesn't like the character and Tom King wanted to use him for his magnum opus as a prop to make Batman feel bad. If you're in the sidekick generation, this applies to you. Re: Arsenal, Wally West, etc.

It's not just Dick, in fact outside Wally, he's the one who has the biggest ties elsewhere. I'm salty about Ric too, but it's just the glass ceiling at DC that doesn't allow characters to equal the Big Seven for fear of undermining them.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> ric grayson says otherwise. He's as much his own as Duke Thomas and Harper row. No getting out of batman's shadow is the whole point of nightwing! It doesn't mean forgetting dick's past it means not living in it.


I still think the amnesia thing is a good idea with terrible execution. It could have helped Dick to develop new friends among the DCU and explore his history through people around him-when he finally gets his memories back, he would be a more mature and competent hero than he was. But here we are, watching the lonewolf Ric babbling about his self-doubt in the eternal city Bludhaven, alas.

----------


## Robanker

> I still think the amnesia thing is a good idea with terrible execution. It could have helped Dick to develop new friends among the DCU and explore his history through people around him-when he finally gets his memories back, he would be a more mature and competent hero than he was. But here we are, watching the lonewolf Ric babbling about his self-doubt in the eternal city Bludhaven, alas.


Can't go with you here. Amnesia is really played out and being done in Aquaman next month as well. Moreover, we just did a big amnesia story not too long ago with Batman. Ever since Rebirth, Dick lost a lot of development and started deferring to Batman and doubting himself. All he need do is look at his long career and realize, hey, I'm the most well-connected hero in the business. Superman's cape may well be the flag of the superhero community, but Nightwing is its product; its success story. Sidekick grown-up, lead teams, hit his career low of rocking a mullet after disco time, found his own city, and filled in for his mentor when Batman was down/dead; respected by all. Hell, even the villains got the fireman calendar he's in (or would if he posed for one). He didn't need amnesia. He just needed a friend to remind him he's Dick Grayson. Honestly, as tired as I am of writers trying to PLAY THE HITS about his love life or team-ups with Damian, that would have been the time for Damian to pick him up and give him direction, thus fulfilling Robin's role to his respective Batman.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Can't go with you here. Amnesia is really played out and being done in Aquaman next month as well. Moreover, we just did a big amnesia story not too long ago with Batman. Ever since Rebirth, Dick lost a lot of development and started deferring to Batman and doubting himself. All he need do is look at his long career and realize, hey, I'm the most well-connected hero in the business. Superman's cape may well be the flag of the superhero community, but Nightwing is its product; its success story. Sidekick grown-up, lead teams, hit his career low of rocking a mullet after disco time, found his own city, and filled in for his mentor when Batman was down/dead; respected by all. Hell, even the villains got the fireman calendar he's in (or would if he posed for one). He didn't need amnesia. He just needed a friend to remind him he's Dick Grayson. Honestly, as tired as I am of writers trying to PLAY THE HITS about his love life or team-ups with Damian, that would have been the time for Damian to pick him up and give him direction, thus fulfilling Robin's role to his respective Batman.


Well, I think Dick needs some incentive that drives him to do self-investigation and look at his history. Just like the origin of Nightwing, it is supposed to be something big enough to force him out of his comfort zone.Besides, Amnesia enables his friends' cameo in the book. As a plot device amnesia might be sort of cliche but it is effective. Who knows Aquaman is going to use it as well？

----------


## OWL45

> Dick can also develop as a character instead of being props to Bruce's never ending drama. Dick in the show has struggles and complexities no portrayal of him has ever done. He isn't another Robin caricature with given personality traits to differ himself from Batman and other Robins. Dick is actually a human with relatable good and bad parts. This is the Dick Grayson who can stand outside Batman.
> 
> It's time to grow up. Kill Robin and let Nightwing be born.


My point about his portrayal in the show exactly. The character has much more depth and substance then in the comic books. He is not written like he is perfect but more human and relatable which makes him stand out even more in the show. Despite how some complain because he fights more brutal he is like Jason I thought the show did an excellent job showing how different they are and that he is nothing like him. Ultimately they are doing the best job of defining who Dick outside of Batman and other Bat characters.

----------


## oasis1313

> Can't go with you here. Amnesia is really played out and being done in Aquaman next month as well. Moreover, we just did a big amnesia story not too long ago with Batman. Ever since Rebirth, Dick lost a lot of development and started deferring to Batman and doubting himself. All he need do is look at his long career and realize, hey, I'm the most well-connected hero in the business. Superman's cape may well be the flag of the superhero community, but Nightwing is its product; its success story. Sidekick grown-up, lead teams, hit his career low of rocking a mullet after disco time, found his own city, and filled in for his mentor when Batman was down/dead; respected by all. Hell, even the villains got the fireman calendar he's in (or would if he posed for one). He didn't need amnesia. He just needed a friend to remind him he's Dick Grayson. Honestly, as tired as I am of writers trying to PLAY THE HITS about his love life or team-ups with Damian, that would have been the time for Damian to pick him up and give him direction, thus fulfilling Robin's role to his respective Batman.


Shaved head is worse than mullet.

----------


## byrd156

> Shaved head is worse than mullet.


Easily. Dick can at-least pull off a mullet if need be.

----------


## oasis1313

> Easily. Dick can at-least pull off a mullet if need be.


I even miss the long ponytail.  We probably should be grateful that Didio hasn't ordered up a story (yet) where some bad guy throws acid on Dick's face.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Man that new episode was a ride. Props to it for going to Dick's psyche. One thing i don't liike is comic Dick had to be flanderised into this 2d guy at the same time Bruce's main pain elipse all of his partners in the 2000s. He is this kind of nuanced in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that Dick getting his proper modern story telling and depth. This show is not quite that because a slightly differrent Dick but close. And i love him burning down Robin. I always thought it was a mistake to "fire" Dick as Robin and not even a sane decision from Bruce. No wonder he found  it hard to find his place as Nightwing. Because he thinks it was unfair and Bruce was not in a good place mentally, he and Bruce still has hat codepedence and unfinished business that tied him back to Batman. It has to be his own adult decision, or like this : wring everything from him, strip him down to the basics, before he can have a new start. 

This Dick is slightly different, but i love that his core stayed the same. Nightwing is a phoenix. He die in the ashes and be reborn.

----------


## oasis1313

> Man that new episode was a ride. Props to it for going to Dick's psyche. One thing i don't liike is comic Dick had to be flanderised into this 2d guy at the same time Bruce's main pain elipse all of his partners in the 2000s. He is this kind of nuanced in the 70s and 80s. Imagine that Dick getting his proper modern story telling and depth. This show is not quite that because a slightly differrent Dick but close. And i love him burning down Robin. I always thought it was a mistake to "fire" Dick as Robin and not even a sane decision from Bruce. No wonder he found  it hard to find his place as Nightwing. Because he thinks it was unfair and Bruce was not in a good place mentally, he and Bruce still has hat codepedence and unfinished business that tied him back to Batman. It has to be his own adult decision, or like this : wring everything from him, strip him down to the basics, before he can have a new start. 
> 
> This Dick is slightly different, but i love that his core stayed the same. Nightwing is a phoenix. He die in the ashes and be reborn.


Remember the Kryptonian legend: The Nightwing always rebuilds. :Smile:  :Smile: .  The show is really hitting a better medium between DC's two divergent Nightwing origin stories; the Most Excellent Wolfman/Perez finesse of Dick outgrowing the role and creating a new independent role for himself VERSUS the shabby Max Allan Collins sheeeeet of Bruce firing Dick for being incompetent.  Here, Dick has become disillusioned with Bruce's crusade because it's not the life he wants--he'd really rather have grown up in the circus with his parents than live in opulence with a madman; he saw himself getting sucked into the madness and crawled out--only now to see another boy going right down the same lethal path.  I like it that this is DICK'S decision; he gets to be proactive instead of reactive.  And there are subtle things that show they're both learning from it:  Jason at least knows he has a GPS in his arm and it sounds as if Bruce actually asked ("so he could find us") instead of just chipping him like a dammed dog.  We might yet see the episode where Jason cuts the GPS out of his arm, too.

----------


## nhienphan2808

Ive always been bothered by YJ Nightwing. While he was a good character, hes not a phoenix. The die and reborn part of him is not seen , neither even a reason he became Nightwing. He's just the typical "giving up to the darkness" trope which is boring. Titans Dick seems like a older and more brutal version of the Teen Titans Animated Robin, who i always see people complain "not like Dick", because he's more introverted like Bruce. TTA and Titans Dick might not at first glance look like Dick, but their "core" of a Kryptonian legend is there.

----------


## Denirac

Dont worry guys, even if Dick Grayson isnt acting like Nightwing at the moment i found us our best replacement for the time being:
0CBB3E8E-FDC8-4865-B2CA-98911CBD7757.jpg
From Johnny English Strikes Again, so if we cant have Nightwing we can at least have Breadwing

----------


## Rac7d*

> Ive always been bothered by YJ Nightwing. While he was a good character, hes not a phoenix. The die and reborn part of him is not seen , neither even a reason he became Nightwing. He's just the typical "giving up to the darkness" trope which is boring. Titans Dick seems like a older and more brutal version of the Teen Titans Animated Robin, who i always see people complain "not like Dick", because he's more introverted like Bruce. TTA and Titans Dick might not at first glance look like Dick, but their "core" of a Kryptonian legend is there.


He wasn't seen much that second goup really splitt the screen time

too many chracters I loved how season 1 just took turns on each chracter

----------


## Badou

> Ive always been bothered by YJ Nightwing. While he was a good character, hes not a phoenix. The die and reborn part of him is not seen , neither even a reason he became Nightwing. He's just the typical "giving up to the darkness" trope which is boring. Titans Dick seems like a older and more brutal version of the Teen Titans Animated Robin, who i always see people complain "not like Dick", because he's more introverted like Bruce. TTA and Titans Dick might not at first glance look like Dick, but their "core" of a Kryptonian legend is there.


I still prefer the original take on him becoming Nightwing in the NTT era. He just got older and moved on from wanting to be Robin and so he became Nightwing. No need to get angsty or dark with it. Just an easy look at a young hero you was getting older. I always felt the YJ version of it was closer to that. 

Although we still have no idea how or why Dick became Nightwing in the New 52 and now Rebirth era. I guess they will just continue to use the boring Nightwing Year One version though.

----------


## Korath

> Dont worry guys, even if Dick Grayson isnt acting like Nightwing at the moment i found us our best replacement for the time being:
> 0CBB3E8E-FDC8-4865-B2CA-98911CBD7757.jpg
> From Johnny English Strikes Again, so if we cant have Nightwing we can at least have Breadwing


Doing that with flutes, especially not industrial ones, is criminal.

----------


## byrd156

> Ive always been bothered by YJ Nightwing. While he was a good character, hes not a phoenix. The die and reborn part of him is not seen , neither even a reason he became Nightwing. He's just the typical "giving up to the darkness" trope which is boring. Titans Dick seems like a older and more brutal version of the Teen Titans Animated Robin, who i always see people complain "not like Dick", because he's more introverted like Bruce. TTA and Titans Dick might not at first glance look like Dick, but their "core" of a Kryptonian legend is there.


The die reborn thing is a very new concept. It's not a cornerstone of the character. That's like the fans complaining that the actor who plays Dick needs to be Romani.

----------


## byrd156

> I still prefer the original take on him becoming Nightwing in the NTT era. He just got older and moved on from wanting to be Robin and so he became Nightwing. No need to get angsty or dark with it. Just an easy look at a young hero you was getting older. I always felt the YJ version of it was closer to that. 
> 
> Although we still have no idea how or why Dick became Nightwing in the New 52 and now Rebirth era. I guess they will just continue to use the boring Nightwing Year One version though.


What's wrong with Year One? Would you rather have that Court of Owls mess instead?

----------


## Badou

> What's wrong with Year One? Would you rather have that Court of Owls mess instead?


Never been a fan out Dick having some massive fallout with Bruce and that is the reason he quit being Robin. I don't think Nightwing Year One is that good a story but it is what everyone defaults to now. I think it is a far weaker story than Robin or Batgirl Year One.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Never been a fan out Dick having some massive fallout with Bruce and that is the reason he quit being Robin. I don't think Nightwing Year One is that good a story but it is what everyone defaults to now. I think it is a far weaker story than Robin or Batgirl Year One.


I flipped through the trade in a store once. I read the first chapter and put it back in disgust. Bruce's characterization is absolutely_ dreadful_ in that story. But in general, Dixon's Bruce leaves me cold.  

It is a piss poor substitute for the pre-Crisis transition to Nightwing. I'd rather see that back. He and Bruce had a falling out, but it was much smaller than what happened post-Crisis, and they actually got the eff over it like adults. The original take has never been topped.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Never been a fan out Dick having some massive fallout with Bruce and that is the reason he quit being Robin. I don't think Nightwing Year One is that good a story but it is what everyone defaults to now. I think it is a far weaker story than Robin or Batgirl Year One.


Writers of Batman office tended to write it as Dick got fired(Bruce in the dominate position) whereas Wolfman wrote it as Dick gave up the Robin mantle and became his own man, because TT office owned Dick at that time and Wolfman cared more about how to shape Dick Grayson as a confident yound leader. Another example that Dick could not get out of Bruce's shadow as long as Batman office owns the character.
That being said I still think Nightwing Year One is a good story. It shows Dick could rise again even if you took away everything he had. Judas Contract is an ideal Nightwing origin story-no fallout with Bruce, Batman was not an asshole, Dick was not fired-but Dick willingly dropping the name given by his mother feels a little unreal to me.

----------


## dropkickjake

Yeah, NTT origin is vastly superior to Nightwing Year One. I was super diassappointed with that. Nightwing simply growing out of being a sidekick is good for both Dick and Bruce. For Dick, it shows him growing up. For Bruce, it further shows that he simply did a good job shepherding Dick so that he he didn’t have to deal with the darkness Bruce does. It further shows Dick as Bruce’s greatest victory. 

And every time I watch YJ I am reminded that Dick + covert ops = winning combination.

----------


## Marilee

> Writers of Batman office tended to write it as Dick got fired(Bruce in the dominate position) whereas Wolfman wrote it as Dick gave up the Robin mantle and became his own man, because TT office owned Dick at that time and Wolfman cared more about how to shape Dick Grayson as a confident yound leader. Another example that Dick could not get out of Bruce's shadow as long as Batman office owns the character.
> That being said I still think Nightwing Year One is a good story. It shows Dick could rise again even if you took away everything he had. Judas Contract is an ideal Nightwing origin story-no falling out with Bruce, Batman was not an asshole, Dick was not fired-but Dick willingly dropping the name given by his mother feels a little unreal to me.


Sorry, but the whole "his mother gave him the name Robin" was ret-conned in *years* after the Judas Contract was written.  Robin, in fact, at that time was a name Dick came up with himself in reference to Robin Hood and had nothing to do with his family or his birthday (before Devin Grayson got a hold of him, his birthday was in the fall (per the calendar that DC put out in the later seventies/early eighties) and was not the first day of spring).  So you can't put the whole him giving up the "Robin" name in the Judas Contract on anything but him outgrowing something he had decided on himself (and that's not even getting into the fact that Bruce had worn the old Robin costume as a young teen for one story way, way back, which means the costume wasn't even Dick's to own - as per the "Untold Story of the Batman" mini-series, again from the late seventies/early eighties...  Sorry for the vagueness on the dates, my memory isn't what it used to be...  I just remember the great Jim Aparo artwork from that mini.).

----------


## nhienphan2808

> The die reborn thing is a very new concept. It's not a cornerstone of the character. That's like the fans complaining that the actor who plays Dick needs to be Romani.


I mean, he has been that even before he became Nightwing, and LONG before Seeley put it in words in his run. Nightwing is just a name, Dick Grayson always rebuilds. He's been having this identity crisis, a need to find himself free of Batman's since what, 1967. He's always trying to leave the  past behind ( meaning "die in ruins') He moved on from scratch after his parents died and unloke Bruce who had all of Gotham to live with he had nothing to begin with. He  moves on from Batman to the TT. He disbanded them to go to college. After leaving Robin he moves on with the NTT, also after a ruin (fighting with Bruce, being fired ) AFter a ruined wedding, he just moves on from Kory and NTT rather easily to come to Bludhaven. And then everything comes to a circle with going backto Gotham and Batman. He lives through many crisises. And through it all, he was never the "giving up to darkness" trope. TTA Dick is the same as Titans Dick in that he gives himself in deep to be "dark", he was tortured, made grave mistakes, left his team... but all that is just to move on. YJ Dick started out as a bright boy but he changed to be dark and never seem to get out of his funk of being changed. That's my main complain - it made him a weaker and different character.

Yes, he seems to grow into much more smoothly not unlike the Wolfman transition, but TT and NTT is literally Comic Dick's rebel phase. Comic Dick has been tired of Batman's shit since the late 60s, he just never found how to get out of that till Jason came. In YJ, the entire "fuck batman" part of his personality is given to others. He's not a rebel, yet gave up and was like "i am like Batman now deal with it"  

Devin Grayson seems to like this phoenix like part of Dick's personality too but instead of writing him "die and reborn" after very long and trying periods of his life consisting of real relationships and hardships and ruins (Batman Earth 1 is 16 years before the TT, The NTT went though 15 years before Bludhaven, and that was 13 years before Batman, and literally 15 years of illusions in Titans undone by torture) she just wrote him "die and reborn" in a Hal Jordan way, has short hookups, short temper, short attention span, short "live" time, short ability to maintain his life, short everything aand everything he ever gives up to is his basic senses)

----------


## bearman

I have always hated Nightwing Year 1, also, almost as much as I hated Dick getting fired after being injured decades ago.
The Wolfman transition was much more mature. 
If Dick had been fired in either of the first two examples, it would have been criminal for Bruce to replace him as Robin with any youngster, much less a street punk.
After all of their Golden and Silver age adventures, I always hated the idea of them having a major falling out. They should maintain their separateness, but be as close as brothers otherwise. 
Dicks run as Batman and “Grayson” at least hinted at their genuine bond.

----------


## Starrius

> Sorry, but the whole "his mother gave him the name Robin" was ret-conned in *years* after the Judas Contract was written.  Robin, in fact, at that time was a name Dick came up with himself in reference to Robin Hood and had nothing to do with his family or his birthday (before Devin Grayson got a hold of him, his birthday was in the fall (per the calendar that DC put out in the later seventies/early eighties) and was not the first day of spring).  So you can't put the whole him giving up the "Robin" name in the Judas Contract on anything but him outgrowing something he had decided on himself (and that's not even getting into the fact that Bruce had worn the old Robin costume as a young teen for one story way, way back, which means the costume wasn't even Dick's to own - as per the "Untold Story of the Batman" mini-series, again from the late seventies/early eighties...  Sorry for the vagueness on the dates, my memory isn't what it used to be...  I just remember the great Jim Aparo artwork from that mini.).



I always thought that Dick took the name, Robin in reference to Robin Hood.  I read his origins back in the early 1990s. 
I didn't know anything about his mother giving him the name Robin.

It's interesting that the name , Robin is that of a bird too.

----------


## Restingvoice

One more by Marcus To

DskIH3AWoAE68hD.jpg

----------


## byrd156

> Never been a fan out Dick having some massive fallout with Bruce and that is the reason he quit being Robin. I don't think Nightwing Year One is that good a story but it is what everyone defaults to now. I think it is a far weaker story than Robin or Batgirl Year One.


I like everything minus the fallout, I think it's always over blown and most writers don't handle it well.

----------


## WonderNight

> Yeah, NTT origin is vastly superior to Nightwing Year One. I was super diassappointed with that. Nightwing simply growing out of being a sidekick is good for both Dick and Bruce. For Dick, it shows him growing up. For Bruce, it further shows that he simply did a good job shepherding Dick so that he he didnt have to deal with the darkness Bruce does. It further shows Dick as Bruces greatest victory. 
> 
> And every time I watch YJ I am reminded that Dick + covert ops = winning combination.


 Well some people here tell me that dick is never going to get out of Batman's shadow because reasons. But isn't that whole point of dick becoming nightwing in the first place. What's the point or purpose of nightwing than?

It the same problem with the titans, supposed to have grown into adulthood and independence but is still looked and treated as sidekicks and children.

----------


## Restingvoice

My problem with the getting out of Batman's shadow is it has become Nightwing's brand. Every time there's a new story it's about getting out of Batman's shadow. 
Teen Titans - Being an independent sidekick
NTT - Growing up and becoming Nightwing
90s Nightwing - Getting his own city 
Batman Reborn - I don't want to be Batman, then turn to I don't want to be the same, Batman. 
New 52 Nightwing - This is probably the only time it didn't start with that, because he's in Gotham and firmly in the family, but then the Circus burned down and he got out of Gotham because of Death of The Family, trying to survive with his own skill and money. 
Grayson - All the comparisons of being a superhero and Batman's partner to being a secret agent
Rebirth Nightwing - Getting his own city and make his own decision - Again
Titans series - Robin to Nightwing transition and leading his own team - Again
Some of those examples aren't that bad, like the Batman one was in the middle of an ongoing arc, but there are still elements of that. 
Like, he's been getting out of Batman's shadow since the 80s. He should be out by now but when Grayson first came out one of the headlines was Dick Grayson is no longer Batman's sidekick.

It's kinda like how Peter Parker is always poor. Nightwing is in that constant state of getting out of Batman's shadow, the permanent young adult starting a new life and not wanting to use dad's money. That's his story and they're repeating it every time they're starting something. 
That's his status quo.

----------


## WonderNight

That's why it's time for nightwing to get a sidekick and enter into a more adult and independent status quo. It's not as if they have a direation for him now.

----------


## babybats

> My problem with the getting out of Batman's shadow is it has become Nightwing's brand. Every time there's a new story it's about getting out of Batman's shadow. 
> Teen Titans - Being an independent sidekick
> NTT - Growing up and becoming Nightwing
> 90s Nightwing - Getting his own city 
> Batman Reborn - I don't want to be Batman, then turn to I don't want to be the same, Batman. 
> New 52 Nightwing - This is probably the only time it didn't start with that, because he's in Gotham and firmly in the family, but then the Circus burned down and he got out of Gotham because of Death of The Family, trying to survive with his own skill and money. 
> Grayson - All the comparisons of being a superhero and Batman's partner to being a secret agent
> Rebirth Nightwing - Getting his own city and make his own decision - Again
> Titans series - Robin to Nightwing transition and leading his own team - Again
> ...


Even TTG is wise to it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VCbFnFJkg8&

----------


## Konja7

> Some of those examples aren't that bad, like the Batman one was in the middle of an ongoing arc, but there are still elements of that. 
> Like, he's been getting out of Batman's shadow since the 80s. He should be out by now but when Grayson first came out one of the headlines was Dick Grayson is no longer Batman's sidekick.
> 
> It's kinda like how Peter Parker is always poor. Nightwing is in that constant state of getting out of Batman's shadow, the permanent young adult starting a new life and not wanting to use dad's money. That's his story and they're repeating it every time they're starting something. 
> That's his status quo.


Exactly. The status quo of Nightwing seems to be "getting out of Batman's shadow". 

Many characters seem to have an status quo, which prevents them from develop in different ways. However, the status quo of Nightwing is especially problematic, since "getting out of Batman's shadow" will only have sense if Dick can really grow (but DC won't allow this). 


PS: Even in other media, they will almost always include "getting out of Batman's shadow" for an independent Dick. Teen Titans cartoon (and I guess Teen Titans Go) is the exception, since the focus is on the group.

----------


## Pohzee

https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...508710400?s=21

It seems as though King is writing a recovered Nightwing in Batman soon enough

----------


## oasis1313

> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...508710400?s=21
> 
> It seems as though King is writing a recovered Nightwing in Batman soon enough


This is old stuff.

----------


## Konja7

> This is old stuff.


The twitter was published today. 

That said, it doesn't King is planning recover Nightwing in Batman. 

It's just a dialogue between Nightwing and Damian. We don't know if King wants to hint something.

----------


## dropkickjake

Whats that from?

----------


## Armor of God

Assuming King's and Tony Daniel's 6 issue arc(confirmed) is 70-75 then King has 4 issues to get there. Maybe Dick recovers in those issues in time for the big story or not

----------


## Badou

> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...508710400?s=21
> 
> It seems as though King is writing a recovered Nightwing in Batman soon enough


The fact that he referred to him as "kid" and that Damian called him Richard instead of Grayson makes me think that Dick isn't recovered.

----------


## Drako



----------


## byrd156

> The fact that he referred to him as "kid" and that Damian called him Richard instead of Grayson makes me think that Dick isn't recovered.


Eh Damian sometimes calls him Richard.

----------


## Konja7

I wonder if it's a hint that the Nightwing solo will be replaced by a "Nightwing and Robin" comic.

The change could be good for Dick.

----------


## RedBird

Kevin Wada
_Robin headshot 
Based on @_gabrielpicolo's Teen Titans designs_



I feel like I can see a bit of Thwaites in this design  :Smile:

----------


## oasis1313

> Whats that from?


Isn't it from that Nightwing story with Damian, Roy, and DIck?

----------


## Restingvoice

It could be a recovery, it could be a flashback. Solicitations predict what's coming in 2 months, but I don't remember how far King usually reveal his writing. He often does this on Twitter, I just don't remember the interval.

----------


## CPSparkles

> Kevin Wada
> _Robin headshot 
> Based on @_gabrielpicolo's Teen Titans designs_
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like I can see a bit of Thwaites in this design


Freckles on Dick? I like

----------


## CPSparkles

> https://twitter.com/tomkingtk/status...508710400?s=21
> 
> It seems as though King is writing a recovered Nightwing in Batman soon enough


I hope this means Ric is going back to Dick. Please. King you could use Batman to plug Batman you know. Hope this isn't some gimmick that goes nowhere beyond fanservice

----------


## Badou

> Eh Damian sometimes calls him Richard.


But I think the "kid" thing is very telling. I don't think the Ric story is going to end until the end of HiC and probably until some upcoming Batman event next year that King is going to do.

----------


## Arsenal

For what little it’s worth, Dick getting shot, losing his memories than regaining them is apparently cannon now according to the latest Batman Beyond

----------


## WonderNight

> For what little it’s worth, Dick getting shot, losing his memories than regaining them is apparently cannon now according to the latest Batman Beyond


does the comic say who's dick's baby mama?

----------


## Jackalope89

> does the comic say who's dick's baby mama?


Kor'i Gordon.

----------


## yohyoi

> Kevin Wada
> _Robin headshot 
> Based on @_gabrielpicolo's Teen Titans designs_
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like I can see a bit of Thwaites in this design


Damn, he is so cute and hot at the same time. Impossible!

----------


## yohyoi

Based on HiC and Batman, we can conclude that Harley Force > Cat Force > Speed Force. Can Dick Grayson learn from Harley? Harley would have dodged the bullet and ricochet it back to KGBeast using her big-ass hammer.

----------


## TravelerInTheDark

Otto Schmidt just posted this sketch of Dick on his twitter. He won't say who the woman is, but with the cat, my guess is Selina. Naughty naughty 

DtBqvN0WwAAySMV.jpg.jpg

We need our smiling pretty boy back! Buzzcut "Rick" just isn't doing it for me :/

----------


## Godlike13

Ewww. Dicks obviously a dog person.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> Otto Schmidt just posted this sketch of Dick on his twitter. He won't say who the woman is, but with the cat, my guess is Selina. Naughty naughty ��
> 
> DtBqvN0WwAAySMV.jpg.jpg
> 
> We need our smiling pretty boy back! Buzzcut "Rick" just isn't doing it for me :/


wow I didn't see the cat....Is there any possible candidate besides Selina？
BTW this is your first post！Welcome to this forum :Wink:

----------


## Gurz

If that's selina, Batman will rip off his dick... I hope this is not selina, i'm so sick and tired of this ambigious eveyone f---s each other american reletionships.

----------


## K. Jones

What title is Otto working on these days?

Wasn't he pegged to go over to Nightwing with Percy from G.A., but it never happened?

----------


## byrd156

> What title is Otto working on these days?
> 
> Wasn't he pegged to go over to Nightwing with Percy from G.A., but it never happened?


Otto is cool and all, I love his style but he really needs to work on his faces. He's kinda like Booth, they can only draw like 2 faces male or female. Booth can at least make Dick and Wally distinct but that's really it. Otto is the same way but can make GA pretty distinct.

----------


## byrd156

> Ewww. Dicks obviously a dog person.


Is he though? He grew up in a circus with a tiger. Plus I think he would just be an all around animal person anyway.

----------


## Godlike13

He preferred the elephant  :Cool:

----------


## byrd156

> He preferred the elephant


That's what I was thinking.

----------


## oasis1313

> wow I didn't see the cat....Is there any possible candidate besides Selina？
> BTW this is your first post！Welcome to this forum


Lots of women love and have cats.  the fact that there is only ONE cat in the pictures indicates that the mystery lady is not Selina, although it seems common for Bruce to pass along his hand-me-downs in this family.  But it IS a shame to lose the great hair and go all bug-eyed.  Even my daughters and grand-daughters miss Handsome Dick Grayson.

----------


## Jackalope89

It's Kori, duh!

----------


## Pohzee

> It's Kori, duh!


Tamaranians are descended from cats IIRC

----------


## oasis1313

> Tamaranians are descended from cats IIRC


She's never shown any interest in cats on Earth, though.  I've never seen her fly up in a tree and say to a kitten, "I think we're cousins, Fluffy."  She does like dolphins.  However, I AM beginning to warm to the idea of Kory as a girlfriend, though.  Barbara makes things too complicated.

----------


## Ascended

......could be Selina, but only one cat? 

It could be Kori.....the TTGO! cartoon writes her as a cat person, so that might be carrying over. 

It could be Power Girl, who has a orange cat (or did, I dunno what she got up to in the New52). For that matter, Supergirl is often written as having an orange cat too, though I think she's in space and underage, so I really hope that's not Kara.

Could just be a random woman. Lots of people have cats. Wait, do we know who's apartment this is? Maybe it's Dick's cat. He'd probably have preferred the elephant, but the building's fee was just too high.

----------


## oasis1313

> ......could be Selina, but only one cat? 
> 
> It could be Kori.....the TTGO! cartoon writes her as a cat person, so that might be carrying over. 
> 
> It could be Power Girl, who has a orange cat (or did, I dunno what she got up to in the New52). For that matter, Supergirl is often written as having an orange cat too, though I think she's in space and underage, so I really hope that's not Kara.
> 
> Could just be a random woman. Lots of people have cats. Wait, do we know who's apartment this is? Maybe it's Dick's cat. He'd probably have preferred the elephant, but the building's fee was just too high.


Is that Streaky the Super Cat?

----------


## yohyoi

Dick Grayson's greatest superpower. Even puts Bruce Wayne to shame.

----------


## Ascended

> Is that Streaky the Super Cat?


An homage, yes. The cats are usually named Streaky and they're orange, but they're just normal cats, not kryptonian, not even flerken.  :Smile: 

Though apparently the super powered Streaky does exist in the DCU again, according to a Super Sons annual. She had a falling out with Krypto; it's quite a scandal in the pet world, I guess.

----------


## oasis1313

> An homage, yes. The cats are usually named Streaky and they're orange, but they're just normal cats, not kryptonian, not even flerken. 
> 
> Though apparently the super powered Streaky does exist in the DCU again, according to a Super Sons annual. She had a falling out with Krypto; it's quite a scandal in the pet world, I guess.


And Krypto is such a nice easy-going puppy.  Well, cats ARE weird.  

Yes, Dick Grayson's greatest superpower is his extreme . . . cuddliness.  :Smile:  :Smile:

----------


## dropkickjake

So on several of the reddits I check out (game of thrones and Young Justice to name two), they do weekly rewatch discussions. I'm reading through some of Morrison's work right now, and want to discuss it with people. (mainly, I just really don't like Quietly's art sometimes.)

think a weekly reread discussion would work with comics, or nah? Its obviously different than a tv show, so it my not work.

----------


## Armor of God

Dunno if you guys read Silencer but with some tweaks its basic story could have easily been a Grayson series story. What a darn missed opportunity. The return to Nightwing was a mistake imo, both with New 52 and Rebirth, hate to say it but its true. The Raptor, Dr Hurt and Blockbuster arcs could've easily been written in Grayson. Everything else has been a waste of time.

The Dark Web has already ended up becoming a Batgirl villain whereas Dick gets Joker's Daughter. Meanwhile Snyder is writing a Batman who Laughs series that will act as a sequel to Black Mirror, King is writing a Pyg one shot with Gerads. Dick is eating crow, the hell is happening?

----------


## Ascended

> Dunno if you guys read Silencer but with some tweaks its basic story could have easily been a Grayson series story. What a darn missed opportunity. The return to Nightwing was a mistake imo, both with New 52 and Rebirth, hate to say it but its true. The Raptor, Dr Hurt and Blockbuster arcs could've easily been written in Grayson. Everything else has been a waste of time.
> 
> The Dark Web has already ended up becoming a Batgirl villain whereas Dick gets Joker's Daughter. Meanwhile Snyder is writing a Batman who Laughs series that will act as a sequel to Black Mirror, King is writing a Pyg one shot with Gerads. Dick is eating crow, the hell is happening?


Didio's throwing his weight around? Didn't he talk about how useless Dick was at a con this past summer? Seems like it's been a while since he was that upfront with his opinion here.

I do disagree about Grayson though, slightly. They should have kept the entire "Grayson" status quo, but put Dick back in costume. Nightwing has better brand recognition than Grayson, and more marketable visuals. "Nightwing: Agent (or Director) of Spyral" would've been a solid fusion that kept the best of both "sides" and felt like a natural step in the narrative.

----------


## Godlike13

> The Dark Web has already ended up becoming a Batgirl villain whereas Dick gets Joker's Daughter. Meanwhile Snyder is writing a Batman who Laughs series that will act as a sequel to Black Mirror, King is writing a Pyg one shot with Gerads. Dick is eating crow, the hell is happening?


It’s dark days indeed. The Bat office just seems like they can’t be bothered when it comes to Nightwing.

----------


## dropkickjake

TBF, the Dark Web always should have been a Babs villain. Other people getting Pyg, Deathstroke, Lady Vic, et c, is hot garbage.

----------


## Badou

Well the purpose of the Dark Web story was to eventually showcase how important Dick was in the DCU. It was going to use all his knowledge about heroes and base a story around that once it got beyond the stupid Bludhaven stuff. The most interesting part of the Dark Web story never really got to be told, imo. 

It is funny to think that just a few months back articles like this were being written, lol. https://screenrant.com/nightwing-bes...perhero-comic/

But yeah, Dick is completely useless and irrelevant in the current DC be it in the Batman office, events, or the DCU as a whole. There doesn't seem to be any creator that is interested in him or has any real plans for the character.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Well the purpose of the Dark Web story was to eventually showcase how important Dick was in the DCU. It was going to use all his knowledge about heroes and base a story around that once it got beyond the stupid Bludhaven stuff. The most interesting part of the Dark Web story never really got to be told, imo. 
> 
> It is funny to think that just a few months back articles like this were being written, lol. https://screenrant.com/nightwing-bes...perhero-comic/
> 
> But yeah, Dick is completely useless and irrelevant in the current DC be it in the Batman office, events, or the DCU as a whole. There doesn't seem to be any creator that is interested in him or has any real plans for the character.


I see more excitement in fanfics than I do from DC themselves, barring Geoff Johns (who is playing a key role with the Titans series).

----------


## byrd156

> So on several of the reddits I check out (game of thrones and Young Justice to name two), they do weekly rewatch discussions. I'm reading through some of Morrison's work right now, and want to discuss it with people. (mainly, I just really don't like Quietly's art sometimes.)
> 
> think a weekly reread discussion would work with comics, or nah? Its obviously different than a tv show, so it my not work.


We just started a book club in the DC thread.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> Though apparently the super powered Streaky does exist in the DCU again, according to a Super Sons annual. She had a falling out with Krypto; it's quite a scandal in the pet world, I guess.


I wonder how scandalous Comet was in the pet world?

Maybe they all sensed his innate creepiness, and killed him. Would explain why he just up and vanished pre-Crisis...

----------


## oasis1313

> I wonder how scandalous Comet was in the pet world?
> 
> Maybe they all sensed his innate creepiness, and killed him. Would explain why he just up and vanished pre-Crisis...


I think Comet should be a horse from Krypton that was in also in Clark's spaceship.  The other explanation is even weirder.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> I think Comet should be a horse from Krypton that was in also in Clark's spaceship.  The other explanation is even weirder.


Not to sidetrack things TOO much, but I fully embrace the absurdity of Comet's classic origin. I want it to be canon again, and called out for the creepy craziness it is. Clark should have always been a little weirded out by that damn horse, and couldn't quite place his finger on _why_.

Plus, the idea that Wonder Woman's Circe was the one who made him a horse amuses me greatly.

----------


## Ascended

> I wonder how scandalous Comet was in the pet world?
> 
> Maybe they all sensed his innate creepiness, and killed him. Would explain why he just up and vanished pre-Crisis...


I'm drawing a blank on Comet's origins here.......why is he creepy? What I remember of the character is largely overwritten by what David did with the IP in his Supergirl run.

----------


## oasis1313

> Dunno if you guys read Silencer but with some tweaks its basic story could have easily been a Grayson series story. What a darn missed opportunity. The return to Nightwing was a mistake imo, both with New 52 and Rebirth, hate to say it but its true. The Raptor, Dr Hurt and Blockbuster arcs could've easily been written in Grayson. Everything else has been a waste of time.
> 
> The Dark Web has already ended up becoming a Batgirl villain whereas Dick gets Joker's Daughter. Meanwhile Snyder is writing a Batman who Laughs series that will act as a sequel to Black Mirror, King is writing a Pyg one shot with Gerads. Dick is eating crow, the hell is happening?


Dan Didio is writing a new series titled "The Publisher Who Laughs."

----------


## Armor of God

> Didio's throwing his weight around? Didn't he talk about how useless Dick was at a con this past summer? Seems like it's been a while since he was that upfront with his opinion here.
> 
> I do disagree about Grayson though, slightly. They should have kept the entire "Grayson" status quo, but put Dick back in costume. Nightwing has better brand recognition than Grayson, and more marketable visuals. "Nightwing: Agent (or Director) of Spyral" would've been a solid fusion that kept the best of both "sides" and felt like a natural step in the narrative.


It wouldn't have worked. Nightwing doesn't fit with the super spy aesthetic or tone. There's a reason he keeps ending up in Bludhaven. I'm not saying a fancy code name wont work but Nightwing has too much baggage and certainly a super spy should not be a basic super hero (see Black Widow, Winter Soldier, Nick Fury etc).

----------


## Armor of God

> TBF, the Dark Web always should have been a Babs villain. Other people getting Pyg, Deathstroke, Lady Vic, et c, is hot garbage.


The Dark Web literally made their debut in a Nightwing story that got sabotaged. Atleast Pyg and Deathstroke were introduced in Titans and Batman books.

There's just no excuse to derail Nightwing's book and then give Dark Web to Babs, what the hell?

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> The Dark Web literally made their debut in a Nightwing story that got sabotaged. Atleast Pyg and Deathstroke were introduced in Titans and Batman books.
> 
> There's just no excuse to derail Nightwing's book and then give Dark Web to Babs, what the hell?


The current writer of Nightwing has his own preference on villains and he chose Joker's daughter.

----------


## Rac7d*

> The current writer of Nightwing has his own preference on villains and he chose Joker's daughter.


dick lost his memories why are batman olc villais harassing him

----------


## oasis1313

> dick lost his memories why are batman olc villais harassing him


There's so many villains around they're harassing everybody--if nothing else, by tripping over them.

----------


## Godlike13

> It wouldn't have worked. Nightwing doesn't fit with the super spy aesthetic or tone. There's a reason he keeps ending up in Bludhaven. I'm not saying a fancy code name wont work but Nightwing has too much baggage and certainly a super spy should not be a basic super hero (see Black Widow, Winter Soldier, Nick Fury etc).


Well it took them what, 10 years to bring back Bludhaven. Personally I think Grayson could have been called Nightwing: Agent of Spyral and I don’t think it would have made a difference. It’s not like they wrote him as some different character. 
 It’s a shame that we never really saw those two worlds collide, and see how he would face the challenge of being a Superhero and Super Spy. Say what you want about Dixon’s run, but it was probably at its strongest when he made him a cop cause watching Dick struggle to balance both things made for an interesting situation and character challenge.

----------


## yohyoi

> The current writer of Nightwing has his own preference on villains and he chose Joker's daughter.


I don't know why Lobdell likes her so much. She isn't interesting at all. No one missed her.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't know why Lobdell likes her so much. She isn't interesting at all. No one missed her.


I would be so hyped for this if it was Duela instead of little miss face off. The Silver Age fan in me wants to see a proper reintroduction of Duela.

----------


## yohyoi

> Dunno if you guys read Silencer but with some tweaks its basic story could have easily been a Grayson series story. What a darn missed opportunity. The return to Nightwing was a mistake imo, both with New 52 and Rebirth, hate to say it but its true. The Raptor, Dr Hurt and Blockbuster arcs could've easily been written in Grayson. Everything else has been a waste of time.
> 
> The Dark Web has already ended up becoming a Batgirl villain whereas Dick gets Joker's Daughter. Meanwhile Snyder is writing a Batman who Laughs series that will act as a sequel to Black Mirror, King is writing a Pyg one shot with Gerads. Dick is eating crow, the hell is happening?


 :Frown:   :Frown:  He is drinking himself to an early grave. Also calls himself Ric and works as a taxi driver. His other vices include trespassing, fighting, gambling and hating superheroes. He is Unmet Potential Man now. Destroying the hope of every fan wherever he goes.  :Confused:

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I don't know why Lobdell likes her so much. She isn't interesting at all. No one missed her.


Clearly Lobdell did. 
Or he didn't bother to do some research on Nightwing's rogues and just picked one villian he used.

----------


## byrd156

> Clearly Lobdell did. 
> Or he didn't bother to do some research on Nightwing's rogues and just picked one villian he used.


She shouldn't even be a villain.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Vinsanity

> TBF, the Dark Web always should have been a Babs villain. Other people getting Pyg, Deathstroke, Lady Vic, et c, is hot garbage.


I agree. Dark Web suits Babs more.

But seems odd it just changed like that.

----------


## yohyoi

> She shouldn't even be a villain.


She shouldn't be period, Harley is already enough.

----------


## Ascended

> It wouldn't have worked. Nightwing doesn't fit with the super spy aesthetic or tone. There's a reason he keeps ending up in Bludhaven. I'm not saying a fancy code name wont work but Nightwing has too much baggage and certainly a super spy should not be a basic super hero (see Black Widow, Winter Soldier, Nick Fury etc).


Oh, ye of little faith.  :Smile: 

It could work as well as any status quo. Grayson's sales demonstrate that, and it did so without the brand recognition of the Nightwing name or visual. There's quite a few ideas about it in the "Pitch a direction" thread. It'd work just fine, assuming you had a writer with half a brain (which can be said of any direction; its all in the execution).

----------


## Armor of God

I dont think it will, Seeley wrote the globetrotting arcs in Nightwing and while they were good they couldn't replicate the feeling of Grayson as did Colin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing who've also written both. Its what it is, Nightwing has baggage, associations with particular tones and concepts.

Agent Nightwing already sounds silly and DC knows it otherwise they would've just called Grayson Nightwing and be done with it.

----------


## Restingvoice

Another one by Marcus To

Ds9ekV3WwAAcXcy.jpg

----------


## Dzetoun

I think a lot of people are going to be very pleased with this week’s episode of _Titans_.

*spoilers:*
 Dick and Donna have a very strong sibling connection. Donna is revealed as Wonder Woman’s sidekick, and we see her and Dick hanging out together while Bruce and Diana discuss Justice League business offscreen. They are evidently going with the orphan rescued from a fire origin for Donna. She explicitly contrasts Diana’s parenting style, emphasizing tradition and honor, with Bruce’s emphasis on rage and violence. She does not really seem judgmental of Bruce so much as sad, and in the flashback young Dick talks about being fresh from a confrontation with the Joker even though Bruce had not wanted him come. She says Wonder Woman’s mission is to protect the innocent; Batman’s is to punish the guilty; and she and Dick must find their own way. The road to Nightwing is accelerating.

In addition, we get namechecks for Themyscira and the Penguin, the latter comical as Dick, bored and ill at ease at an exhibition of Donna’s photos, wonders aloud what the Penguin is up to at the moment.
*end of spoilers*

----------


## Badou

Well I think Spyral was uniquely qualified where Dick going by Nightwing while working there would fit. Since it was created by Morrison and is designed to be weird. So you have members like The Hood or Gaucho that worked in Spyral and it isn't just your typical spies or secret agents. It has costumed heroes and is a place where you could add more if need be. It is just a shame the Grayson series didn't explore that side enough.

----------


## KrustyKid

> Another one by Marcus To
> 
> Attachment 74361


Love that one

----------


## dropkickjake

> I dont think it will, Seeley wrote the globetrotting arcs in Nightwing and while they were good they couldn't replicate the feeling of Grayson as did Colin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing who've also written both. Its what it is, Nightwing has baggage, associations with particular tones and concepts.
> 
> Agent Nightwing already sounds silly and DC knows it otherwise they would've just called Grayson Nightwing and be done with it.


His globe trotting arcs were the strongest part of Seeley's series. The Raptor arc especially stacks up to anything in the Grayson series.

As for book name, I'm personally partial to "Codename: Nightwing"

----------


## 9th.

Agent Nightwing doesn't sound all that silly tbh

----------


## Rac7d*

> I think a lot of people are going to be very pleased with this weeks episode of _Titans_.
> 
> *spoilers:*
>  Dick and Donna have a very strong sibling connection. Donna is revealed as Wonder Womans sidekick, and we see her and Dick hanging out together while Bruce and Diana discuss Justice League business offscreen. They are evidently going with the orphan rescued from a fire origin for Donna. She explicitly contrasts Dianas parenting style, emphasizing tradition and honor, with Bruces emphasis on rage and violence. She does not really seem judgmental of Bruce so much as sad, and in the flashback young Dick talks about being fresh from a confrontation with the Joker even though Bruce had not wanted him come. She says Wonder Womans mission is to protect the innocent; Batmans is to punish the guilty; and she and Dick must find their own way. The road to Nightwing is accelerating.
> 
> In addition, we get namechecks for Themyscira and the Penguin, the latter comical as Dick, bored and ill at ease at an exhibition of Donnas photos, wonders aloud what the Penguin is up to at the moment.
> *end of spoilers*


we have two episodes left and the next is a backstory for Hawk and Dove so Nightwing and the suit will be in the last episode

----------


## Ascended

> His globe trotting arcs were the strongest part of Seeley's series. The Raptor arc especially stacks up to anything in the Grayson series.
> 
> As for book name, I'm personally partial to "Codename: Nightwing"


Eh, I dont think there'd be a need to change the name of the title at all. In fact, I'd argue that it'd be best to leave it just at "Nightwing." 

I mean, Codename: Nightwing isn't a bad name, I just dont feel like you'd have to change the name of the book just to embrace a new direction. Though I suppose since we have "Red Hood: Outlaw" and "Robin: Son of the Bat" and "Azreal: Agent of the Bat" you could tack some descriptor onto Nightwing......but I dunno if it'd make a difference.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Eh, I dont think there'd be a need to change the name of the title at all. In fact, I'd argue that it'd be best to leave it just at "Nightwing." 
> 
> I mean, Codename: Nightwing isn't a bad name, I just dont feel like you'd have to change the name of the book just to embrace a new direction. Though I suppose since we have "Red Hood: Outlaw" and "Robin: Son of the Bat" and "Azreal: Agent of the Bat" you could tack some descriptor onto Nightwing......but I dunno if it'd make a difference.


Nah, its not _needed_. I just like it.

----------


## Drako

> we have two episodes left and the next is a backstory for Hawk and Dove so Nightwing and the suit will be in the last episode


Three episodes left.

https://superbromovies.com/2018/10/2...emiere-dec-21/

----------


## Ascended

> Nah, its not _needed_. I just like it.


 :Big Grin:  No better reason then.  :Smile:

----------


## oasis1313

> Three episodes left.
> 
> https://superbromovies.com/2018/10/2...emiere-dec-21/


So two episodes after tonight?  Any word on when the new season starts?  Do we continue to get our Dick Fix with the cartoon?

----------


## byrd156

> So two episodes after tonight?  Any word on when the new season starts?  Do we continue to get our Dick Fix with the cartoon?


Go watch Young Justice.

----------


## oasis1313

> Go watch Young Justice.


I will Dick Grayson is in it.

----------


## byrd156

> I will Dick Grayson is in it.


It's easily some of DC's best animated work. Damn talking about it makes me want to rewatch it.

----------


## Godlike13

Man I like how effortless it was between Dick and Donna. Show nailed it with them. 




> So two episodes after tonight?  Any word on when the new season starts?  Do we continue to get our Dick Fix with the cartoon?


App says 3 after tonight.

----------


## yohyoi

I hate Ric a lot. I'm also not a fan of Babs and Dick. But what Ric did to Babs shows how much a jerk he is. Babs was there for Ric and his physical rehabilitation. To just say that she did it for Dick, not Ric, is plain b---shit! I'm gonna say it: Babs deserve more than Ric or Dick. If this is how Dick/Ric truly feels and treats Babs, then Babs could find someone better.

----------


## byrd156

Dick and Donna were pretty awesome in Titans. Though Dick in this universe is seriously unwell, like I know having trouble with small talk was a joke but Dick really doesn't get people in this universe. Which is weird because I would consider Dick a people person.

----------


## Godlike13

> I hate Ric a lot. I'm also not a fan of Babs and Dick. But what Ric did to Babs shows how much a jerk he is. Babs was there for Ric and his physical rehabilitation. To just say that she did it for Dick, not Ric, is plain b---shit! I'm gonna say it: Babs deserve more than Ric or Dick. If this is how Dick/Ric truly feels and treats Babs, then Babs could find someone better.


We all deserve better than Ric.

----------


## yohyoi

> Dick and Donna were pretty awesome in Titans. Though Dick in this universe is seriously unwell, like I know having trouble with small talk was a joke but Dick really doesn't get people in this universe. Which is weird because I would consider Dick a people person.


I actually love socially awkward Dick Grayson. It shows the circus boy in him. Bruce is also an introvert so Dick won't get any social training from him. Bruce fakes being social. Dick does not which shows his charm and honesty. It is also funny when his mind goes to what the Penguin is doing. Which shows how much Batman focused on the Robin part of him instead of the Dick Grayson part in the Titans Universe.

----------


## yohyoi

Dick is actually becoming more social and caring as the series progress, especially after he burns the Robin costume. In the first episode, he didn't have a life outside being a detective and Robin. He also cut all communication with his past friends and life. He was in a sense alone. Now, he is reconnecting with his past life (Circus,Dove,Donna) and he cares a lot about Rachel. Titans is a retake on Nightwing: Year One but replacing the Bat family with his Titans one. I can see him becoming a darker Nightwing than we are used to but still Nightwing in his core.

It is also in my opinion Dick needed a darker take on him. To emphasize he is no longer the Robin of the 60s or 90s; both of which are defined and depended on Batman. Dick needed to match Batman and make his critics shut up. Titans is doing a good job there in my opinion. More people are taking him seriously and he is gaining new fans too. Titans is also the few anti-Batman worship of DC. Even Batman needs to be put down once in a while, no matter how many fanboys cry.

----------


## OWL45

> Dick is actually becoming more social and caring as the series progress, especially after he burns the Robin costume. In the first episode, he didn't have a life outside being a detective and Robin. He also cut all communication with his past friends and life. He was in a sense alone. Now, he is reconnecting with his past life (Circus,Dove,Donna) and he cares a lot about Rachel. Titans is a retake on Nightwing: Year One but replacing the Bat family with his Titans one. I can see him becoming a darker Nightwing than we are used to but still Nightwing in his core.
> 
> It is also in my opinion Dick needed a darker take on him. To emphasize he is no longer the Robin of the 60s or 90s; both of which are defined and depended on Batman. Dick needed to match Batman and make his critics shut up. Titans is doing a good job there in my opinion. More people are taking him seriously and he is gaining new fans too. Titans is also the few anti-Batman worship of DC. Even Batman needs to be put down once in a while, no matter how many fanboys cry.


I agree with your opinion 100 percent. He needed a darker take and be portrayed more Alpha. Times have changed and an adult bouncing around smiling and laughing may be cute to some but some don’t take him seriously. I think Titans is slowly changing his image in the minds of some fans.He is also portrayed as competent on this show while in comics he is used to prop up other characters and show how cool they are.

----------


## oasis1313

> I agree with your opinion 100 percent. He needed a darker take and be portrayed more Alpha. Times have changed and an adult bouncing around smiling and laughing may be cute to some but some don’t take him seriously. I think Titans is slowly changing his image in the minds of some fans.He is also portrayed as competent on this show while in comics he is used to prop up other characters and show how cool they are.


Dick is very much the lynchpin character in the group.  I wonder why Geoff Jones said he had to fight to get to use Dick Grayson.  What else did DC have in mind?

----------


## Jackalope89

> Dick is very much the lynchpin character in the group.  I wonder why Geoff Jones said he had to fight to get to use Dick Grayson.  What else did DC have in mind?


Ric Grayson.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Dick is very much the lynchpin character in the group.  I wonder why Geoff Jones said he had to fight to get to use Dick Grayson.  What else did DC have in mind?


...
...
...
...they wanted Damian didn't they

----------


## oasis1313

> ...
> ...
> ...
> ...they wanted Damian didn't they


Damian isn’t old enough to get them an R rating.  Jason would make a good choice for the dark direction they wanted to go in and Dick is like Captain Kirk when it comes to alien babes.

----------


## Pohzee

Saw this on reddit, but artist Travis Mercer seems to be working on something Nighwing related. I dunno if it is for Batgirl or Nightwing, but one would hope that it indicates that the Ric stint is wrapping up soon.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._on_something/

----------


## 9th.

Love this scene, YJ is great

----------


## byrd156

> Love this scene, YJ is great


This is leagues above the "trauma" that is being explored in HiC.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Ascended

> This is leagues above the "trauma" that is being explored in HiC.


That entire show was leagues above almost everything DC or Marvel have done in the last ten years.

----------


## byrd156

> That entire show was leagues above almost everything DC or Marvel have done in the last ten years.


That's why it took legions of us fans to bring it back. I still can't believe DC cancelled it in the first place. Hell I'm watching it right now as I type, on the Dr. Fate's first episode.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Saw this on reddit, but artist Travis Mercer seems to be working on something Nighwing related. I dunno if it is for Batgirl or Nightwing, but one would hope that it indicates that the Ric stint is wrapping up soon.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._on_something/


These panels look incredible. Whether that is for Nightwing or Batgirl, I look forward to reading it.

----------


## Jackalope89

> That entire show was leagues above almost everything DC or Marvel have done in the last ten years.


Greg Weisman is pretty awesome. Never watched his Spiderman series, but Gargoyles (season 1 and 2, he only did episode 1 of season 3) and Young Justice are both awesome.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Greg Weisman is pretty awesome. Never watched his Spiderman series, but Gargoyles (season 1 and 2, he only did episode 1 of season 3) and Young Justice are both awesome.


Spectacular Spiderman is also pretty great. Watched an episode bc there was nothing else on once. Got sucked in real quick.

----------


## Ascended

> That's why it took legions of us fans to bring it back. I still can't believe DC cancelled it in the first place. Hell I'm watching it right now as I type, on the Dr. Fate's first episode.


Eh, we all know it was a bad toy line by Mattel that didn't sell, and scheduling dickery by CN that screwed that show. 

This is about the only reason Im glad DC has its own service now, so they can avoid having to deal with CN and that obnoxious "first refusal" policy.

----------


## oasis1313

Hey, guys—I just bought the first season of Young Justice on dvd because my buds here have promised it’s not Dickless.

----------


## SiegePerilous02

> This is leagues above the "trauma" that is being explored in HiC.


Dinah's a florist though, so I'm not sure she's qualified to be playing psychiatrist.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Better than the Sanctuary by a wide margin, but still an indicator that superheroes have no clue how to deal with this stuff.

----------


## byrd156

> Hey, guys—I just bought the first season of Young Justice on dvd because my buds here have promised it’s not Dickless.


Watch it now Oasis!!! I promise you won't be disappointed. Episode 12 is an Artemis and Dick episode that is very good.

----------


## byrd156

> Spectacular Spiderman is also pretty great. Watched an episode bc there was nothing else on once. Got sucked in real quick.


Weisman knows how to make great shows. I really wish DC made him the Kevin Feige of an animated tv universe. You could have Young Justice, a JL show, and whatever else they wanted to do.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Dinah's a florist though, so I'm not sure she's qualified to be playing psychiatrist.  Better than the Sanctuary by a wide margin, but still an indicator that superheroes have no clue how to deal with this stuff.


Well, main comic-verse Dinah is. Young Justice version suggests she has a degree in psychology or something similar.

----------


## Konja7

> Eh, we all know it was a bad toy line by Mattel that didn't sell, and scheduling dickery by CN that screwed that show. 
> 
> This is about the only reason Im glad DC has its own service now, so they can avoid having to deal with CN and that obnoxious "first refusal" policy.


To be fair, the toy sales is really important for this type of cartoon (probably related to the sponsors). Then, it has sense CN doesn't mantain this. 

Toy sales doesn't seem so important for the DC streaming service (it's likely because people pay to mantain the service). That said, I wonder if the animation quality could fall for the third season of Young Justice.

----------


## WonderNight

> To be fair, the toy sales is really important for this type of cartoon (probably related to the sponsors). Then, it has sense CN doesn't mantain this. 
> 
> Toy sales doesn't seem so important for the DC streaming service (it's likely because people pay to mantain the service). That said, I wonder if the animation quality could fall for the third season of Young Justice.


Toy sale was how they made there money on CN. The DC streaming service make its money from the subscriptions.

----------


## Grayson - The Dark Heir

I'm not sure there's any reason to believe YJ would have a lower budget when Titans clearly has a bigger budget than CW shows. They don't seem to be strapped for cash.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm not sure there's any reason to believe YJ would have a lower budget when Titans clearly has a bigger budget than CW shows. They don't seem to be strapped for cash.


Especially since they are owned by WB.

----------


## dropkickjake

So I got bored and read batman 55. It was actually a pretty fun read up until Didio used it as an excuse to ruin the Nightwing book for months.

----------


## Ascended

> To be fair, the toy sales is really important for this type of cartoon (probably related to the sponsors). Then, it has sense CN doesn't mantain this. 
> 
> Toy sales doesn't seem so important for the DC streaming service (it's likely because people pay to mantain the service). That said, I wonder if the animation quality could fall for the third season of Young Justice.


Its true, toys sales were important. But when a chunk of your revenue is expected to come from toys, you should probably make sure the toys are worth buying.

----------


## yohyoi

> Coming in Batman:
> 
> Issue 60 (Wednesday) wraps up post-wedding Cold Days arc.
> 
> 61-69 Knightmares. Epic arc scraping at the soul of Batman. (With a Flash break at 64, 65).
> 
> 70-74: The Fall and the Fallen.
> 
> 75-: A huge Bat event with a secret name that sets us up for the end at 105.
> ...


Another Bat event... Ready for Dick/"Ric" to be further used as a plot device and treated as a sidekick. Well, you won't have to wait for long. Tom King has a story for you!

----------


## Badou

If anything that probably means that the Ric story is going to drag on until the Batman event at #75 which is probably when DC will relaunch their Batman titles. So get ready for months and months of more Ric Grayson and Lobdell!

But yeah, I have zero confidence in King doing right by any of the supporting Batman characters. He has not treated them too well in his run and I imagine there will be a lot more collateral damage coming. The rumors are that he wants to kill/remove Bruce from the Batman mantle and wants to replace him with someone to do his own Knightfall story probably means that Ric will stick around to prevent Dick from being available to take over as Batman until then possibly. Since King didn't want to do the DickBats thing again. He said int hat podcast he wanted to use Duke originally but no clue if he will do that still.

----------


## oasis1313

> Another Bat event... Ready for Dick/"Ric" to be further used as a plot device and treated as a sidekick. Well, you won't have to wait for long. Tom King has a story for you!


Too lazy to go get on Twitter.  Does it mention Rico?

----------


## oasis1313

> If anything that probably means that the Ric story is going to drag on until the Batman event at #75 which is probably when DC will relaunch their Batman titles. So get ready for months and months of more Ric Grayson and Lobdell!
> 
> But yeah, I have zero confidence in King doing right by any of the supporting Batman characters. He has not treated them too well in his run and I imagine there will be a lot more collateral damage coming. The rumors are that he wants to kill/remove Bruce from the Batman mantle and wants to replace him with someone to do his own Knightfall story probably means that Ric will stick around to prevent Dick from being available to take over as Batman until then possibly. Since King didn't want to do the DickBats thing again. He said int hat podcast he wanted to use Duke originally but no clue if he will do that still.


I think DC would jump at the chance to have a black Batman.  With Jason and Damian exiled, Dick being a brain-damaged bum, and Tim launching his own line of books, there’s not much left who could fit into the costume but Duke.

----------


## byrd156

I find it kinda ironic that when there's a new issue out this thread goes dark for a few days.

----------


## yohyoi

> I find it kinda ironic that when there's a new issue out this thread goes dark for a few days.


There's nothing to talk about. Titans had a Hawk and Dove episode. The comics had Ric.

----------


## Pohzee

> I find it kinda ironic that when there's a new issue out this thread goes dark for a few days.


I'm sure its because all the lively discussion is in the Nightwing #54 thread.

----------


## Arsenal

> I think DC would jump at the chance to have a black Batman.  With Jason and Damian exiled, Dick being a brain-damaged bum, and Tim launching his own line of books, there’s not much left who could fit into the costume but Duke.


Can Duke even fit in the costume? Didn’t think he was that big.

----------


## oasis1313

> Can Duke even fit in the costume? Didn’t think he was that big.


They are all whatever age, weight, or sex Tom King wants them to be at any given moment.  I think Luke Fox would have made a better Batman than Duke, though.

----------


## Restingvoice

All the artists that worked with Tom King so far have drawn him with significant size difference compared to Bruce. Even Dick is taller and thicker. He's closer to Jason, but still shorter if I remember correctly.

----------


## Pohzee

Yes. Duke's height is a key factor to his ability to be Batman. If he weren't tall enough, it's be a dead giveaway that he wasn't Bruce.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm sure its because all the lively discussion is in the Nightwing #54 thread.


Generally with any other character the discussion will be on almost all forms the character is involved in. (Ex. Firestorm's appreciation was popping with his HiC apperance and he was the topic in those threads too.)

I just find it funny that with each appearance we, the fans, get more quiet and sullen.

----------


## byrd156

> There's nothing to talk about. Titans had a Hawk and Dove episode. The comics had Ric.


There's literally nothing going on for Wally, yet his thread is always popping.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Korath

How the hell can anyone think that Duke would be used by King to replace Batman? He did next to nothing with him for 60 issues. 

Of course, he also did next to nothing with Gotham-Girl, who had the potential to be one of the most interesting characters introduced with Rebirth, so I guess anything is possible. But still.

----------


## Godlike13

> There's literally nothing going on for Wally, yet his thread is always popping.


This thread is double the size of Wally's.

----------


## byrd156

> This thread is double the size of Wally's.


I know, didn't say it wasn't. That's not even a factor in my point. My point is that we go through times where no one says anything then jump 30 pages because DC did another disappointing thing. Then the cycle continues.

It's just an observation about the thread that I thought was funny.

----------


## oasis1313

Everyone is unhappy except Dan Didio.  This is a good place to commiserate with others.

----------


## Rac7d*

> There's literally nothing going on for Wally, yet his thread is always popping.


out of discourse for his death

----------


## Hilden B. Lade

https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...39711386746880

Tom King reveals his favorite Nightwing run.

(it's Tomasi's for those who don't feel like clicking)

----------


## Pohzee

> https://twitter.com/TomKingTK/status...39711386746880
> 
> Tom King reveals his favorite Nightwing run.
> 
> (it's Tomasi's for those who don't feel like clicking)


I'd say that issue-for-issue, I'd agree. I liked the first arc of Seeley's run better, but nothing after that. And perhaps you had to be there to experience it, but I am not wowwed by Dixon's run.

----------


## Armor of God

Tomasi & Seeley are also my favorites, I enjoyed Devin Grayson before she went downhill. Worst for me has to be Ric Grayson era and Higgins run.

----------


## oasis1313

Ric and Catalina Flores.  The pits.

----------


## Restingvoice

Jim Lee

Dt_ixBXW0AAZDgg.jpg

----------


## dropkickjake

> Tomasi & Seeley are also my favorites, I enjoyed Devin Grayson before she went downhill. Worst for me has to be Ric Grayson era and Higgins run.


Higgins had some very slow points, but some of his work was good. I thought his Court of Owls lead in and tie ins (issues 1-9 or whatever) were pretty decent. B+ at least. Then he hit a very bad slow patch until he moved the character to Chicago, at which point it became a pretty dang good run.

----------


## Hizashi

I had been cautiously optimistic about this new direction, thinking it might have something interesting to say, but it’s ultimately turned out pretty bad. Darn shame, and the art has been a mixed bag, from great to atrocious.

----------


## yohyoi

> I had been cautiously optimistic about this new direction, thinking it might have something interesting to say, but it’s ultimately turned out pretty bad. Darn shame, and the art has been a mixed bag, from great to atrocious.


It has a different artist for every issue. The tpb will be harder to read. Not to mention a very slow story. 4 issues in and there has been no development.

----------


## oasis1313

My bet is that we'll have an issue or three apiece to focus on each of the four (?) cops dressed up in Nightwing costumes and their "origins".  Ric will stay in the alley with his wino friends until he realizes that the four cops are totally out of their league and SOMEBODY has to save them.  He decides he doesn't need those brain cells since he's already destroying whatever's left of them with alcohol anyway,  So he rescues the four cops, packs a duffel bag, and hops on a freight train to ride the rails to someplace else.  That kills another year in the life of Hobo Ric.  What do you guys think of my amazingly creative idea?

----------


## yohyoi

> My bet is that we'll have an issue or three apiece to focus on each of the four (?) cops dressed up in Nightwing costumes and their "origins".  Ric will stay in the alley with his wino friends until he realizes that the four cops are totally out of their league and SOMEBODY has to save them.  He decides he doesn't need those brain cells since he's already destroying whatever's left of them with alcohol anyway,  So he rescues the four cops, packs a duffel bag, and hops on a freight train to ride the rails to someplace else.  That kills another year in the life of Hobo Ric.  What do you guys think of my amazingly creative idea?


Might happen. DC has no plans for Nightwing. They stretch stories to fill issues. The stories itself have no impact on anything in the DCU. Fans still buy it because most are optimistically dumb. More money for DC so they continue to publish Nightwing stories that are subpar, very long and unimportant to anyone. Also, new writers love to retcon past writers. So everything goes back to square one... new love interest... new friends... new place... new job... Dick should be Batman level right now, but who cares, make him a taxi driver.

----------


## Godlike13

It really is a new low point. The lack of effort creatively and editorially is just so disheartening. No one on the book seems to even have any professional integrity to actually put out a decent product here. They know this is shit, they even know readers are miserable, they just don't give a shit. They are just dragging this turd of a story out, because this is all they could manage to slap together. They have no idea what the hell the point of this story even is. They sold this turn as the next evolution of Dick Grayson, but instead it been 4 issues of Lobdell and Ric just basically telling us how Dick sucks and is overrated. And how everyone should just like Ric for Ric. Except Ric is a boring turd of a character, with no real redeeming or interesting qualities besides that he was Dick.

----------


## oasis1313

> They sold this turn as the next evolution of Dick Grayson, but instead it been 4 issues of Lobdell and Ric just basically telling us how Dick sucks and is overrated. And how everyone should just like Ric for Ric. Except Ric is a boring turd of a character, with no real redeeming or interesting qualities besides that he was Dick.


They didn't sell this turn to anybody.  I never heard any talk of it being an "evolution" for Dick.  Tom King just wanted to shoot Dick Grayson in the head; he didn't care what happened next and he's said exactly that.  I guess he thought it was a "dramatic" thing to do.  Didio wanted to make Dick an ugly dirty homeless alcoholic so he gave Lobdell and Fabian his imperial command and left them scrambling with nothing to hang any ideas off of.   King is a rich diva now so the company lurches about to give him whatever he wants, like they do for their "star" talent.  Lobdell and Fabian are like us--a couple of guys working to support their families--and they're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; I don't blame them at all.  Meanwhile, Didio is laughing his head off over how he shafted the customers and a character he doesn't like.  The only option I can see for Nightwing's viability is to meta him up somehow.

----------


## WonderNight

Meta dick up will never happen under the bat office, nether will mari grayson or dickkory or anything else. All nightwing can be and have is for batman.

----------


## oasis1313

> Meta dick up will never happen under the bat office, nether will mari grayson or dickkory or anything else. All nightwing can be and have is for batman.


How can he do that now, since he's essentially on a never-ending self-imposed exile?

----------


## Godlike13

> They didn't sell this turn to anybody.  I never heard any talk of it being an "evolution" for Dick.  Tom King just wanted to shoot Dick Grayson in the head; he didn't care what happened next and he's said exactly that.  I guess he thought it was a "dramatic" thing to do.  Didio wanted to make Dick an ugly dirty homeless alcoholic so he gave Lobdell and Fabian his imperial command and left them scrambling with nothing to hang any ideas off of.   King is a rich diva now so the company lurches about to give him whatever he wants, like they do for their "star" talent.  Lobdell and Fabian are like us--a couple of guys working to support their families--and they're trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; I don't blame them at all.  Meanwhile, Didio is laughing his head off over how he shafted the customers and a character he doesn't like.  The only option I can see for Nightwing's viability is to meta him up somehow.


Didio doesn’t single handedly run every department and book. King wanted to shoot Dick, the Bat office are the one’s who decided to run with it and bumbled it into Ric. The advertised next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
And Lobdell and Fabian are the ones who are excuting it. They are the ones writing Ric continually dog his former self to his readers, repeating the same crap over and over as they painfullly drag things out. Missing that this could actually be a character journey for Dick, and instead are lazily just treating Ric as if he’s a different character. So I’m sorry, they’re not excused for this crap story and uninspired execution. That took this idea and have just made it worse.

----------


## Restingvoice

I'm in the mood for new music so what songs do you associate with Nightwing?
_Besides_ Daring Young Man on a Flying Trapeze.

----------


## byrd156

> I'm in the mood for new music so what songs do you associate with Nightwing?
> _Besides_ Daring Young Man on a Flying Trapeze.


I don't really associate any music with Dick, maybe the Beatles when I think about him in the Silver Age with the Teen Titans.

----------


## Pohzee

> I'm in the mood for new music so what songs do you associate with Nightwing?
> _Besides_ Daring Young Man on a Flying Trapeze.


Huh, I didn't know that was a real song.

Just Like You- Three Days Grace
No Roots- Alice Merton
Blurryface- 21 Pilots

Alternatively, there the Nightwing: Rebirth Playlist on Spotify.
https://open.spotify.com/user/offici...RSGLQsVUfphO5A

And, since it is the season: Jingle Bells, Batman Smells.

----------


## Hizashi

> It has a different artist for every issue. The tpb will be harder to read. Not to mention a very slow story. 4 issues in and there has been no development.


I was aware of the different artists - shame there couldnt be more consistency in that department.

Yep, the story has been a whole lot of nothing - I wasnt expecting some groundbreaking hit, but it was advertised as an evolution and it has bungled that up spectacularly.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Didio doesn’t single handedly run every department and book. King wanted to shoot Dick, the Bat office are the one’s who decided to run with it and bumbled it into Ric. The advertised next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
> And Lobdell and Fabian are the ones who are excuting it. They are the ones writing Ric continually dog his former self to his readers, repeating the same crap over and over as they painfullly drag things out. Missing that this could actually be a character journey for Dick, and instead are lazily just treating Ric as if he’s a different character. So I’m sorry, they’re not excused for this crap story and uninspired execution. That took this idea and have just made it worse.


Its weird to me that they interrupted and cancelled Percy's plan for this. Editorial has a history of interrupting stories for crossovers and such, so I wasn't too surprised at the time. I thought they had a plan though, maybe just a bad one. The Ric stuff really feels like something they're doing because they have no plan and don't really know what to do. If you don't care what you do with Nightwing, why not just leave Percy alone? The gunshot was clearly just to make Batman mad.

----------


## oasis1313

> Didio doesn’t single handedly run every department and book. King wanted to shoot Dick, the Bat office are the one’s who decided to run with it and bumbled it into Ric. The advertised next evolution of Dick Grayson. 
> And Lobdell and Fabian are the ones who are excuting it. They are the ones writing Ric continually dog his former self to his readers, repeating the same crap over and over as they painfullly drag things out. Missing that this could actually be a character journey for Dick, and instead are lazily just treating Ric as if he’s a different character. So I’m sorry, they’re not excused for this crap story and uninspired execution. That took this idea and have just made it worse.


I don't think Didio counts the paperclips, but I do think the final word on character decisions require his permission.  If King and the Bat-Office want a black Batman (and Didio would have to approve it), then Duke or Luke are going to need some time in the cape to try to sell the idea--it can't be that the black person is Batman for 3 months then he's out.  Dick would be the logical stand-in Bat, but he's going to have to be unavailable for the foreseeable future.  Jason is kicked out of town and Tim is being coronated elsewhere.   The bad guys would laugh (at first) when they're confronted by a prepubescent Batman if Damian tried to fill in.  If you work at DC and you want to burn the paper to print something, you're going to have to get an okay out of the boss (just like in ANY job where you're working for someone else).  He might indulge the "superstars" but he's not going to pamper the regular workhorse writers.

----------


## Ascended

> Tom King just wanted to shoot Dick Grayson in the head; he didn't care what happened next and he's said exactly that.  I guess he thought it was a "dramatic" thing to do.


To play devil's advocate; King is writing Batman, not Nightwing. From his perspective, what he does has to impact Bruce's narrative, not Dick's. Putting Bruce through the pain and guilt and whatever else of having Dick injured is a perfectly viable narrative tool.

Of course, that said, it's a viable tool for your supporting characters. It shouldn't be a viable tool for a character that is the star of his own title. Which just brings us back to what we always come back to and all of us know; DC's current management view Dick as nothing more than an attache of the Bat titles. Dick's not a star, he's a supporting character who happens to have his own book. As far as the people in charge are concerned, that's all Nightwing is; another Robin to use however they want as long as it fuels Bruce's story.

.....I am assuming there's been some kind of fallout in King's Batman. I trade wait that (and am currently at least one trade behind, because Im in no rush here) so Im just assuming that King injured Dick so Bruce could brood about it. There has been brooding or something right? 




> Meta dick up will never happen under the bat office, nether will mari grayson or dickkory or anything else. All nightwing can be and have is for batman.


We know. But since DC won't treat the character better all we have are our own ideas we can bounce off each other.  :Frown:  I hold out hope that the next person they put in some kind of authority position, be it Batman group editor, or CCO, or EiC, or whatever, has not only more love for Nightwing but enough gods damn business sense to recognize the IP's value and build on it.

----------


## Jackalope89

> To play devil's advocate; King is writing Batman, not Nightwing. From his perspective, what he does has to impact Bruce's narrative, not Dick's. Putting Bruce through the pain and guilt and whatever else of having Dick injured is a perfectly viable narrative tool.
> 
> Of course, that said, it's a viable tool for your supporting characters. It shouldn't be a viable tool for a character that is the star of his own title. Which just brings us back to what we always come back to and all of us know; DC's current management view Dick as nothing more than an attache of the Bat titles. Dick's not a star, he's a supporting character who happens to have his own book. As far as the people in charge are concerned, that's all Nightwing is; another Robin to use however they want as long as it fuels Bruce's story.
> 
> .....I am assuming there's been some kind of fallout in King's Batman. I trade wait that (and am currently at least one trade behind, because Im in no rush here) so Im just assuming that King injured Dick so Bruce could brood about it. There has been brooding or something right? 
> 
> 
> 
> We know. But since DC won't treat the character better all we have are our own ideas we can bounce off each other.  I hold out hope that the next person they put in some kind of authority position, be it Batman group editor, or CCO, or EiC, or whatever, has not only more love for Nightwing but enough gods damn business sense to recognize the IP's value and build on it.


Well, comics office DC won't treat Dick any better any time soon. However, I believe that Young Justice Dick and Titans Dick (outside of blowing up the off the grid hospital full of people, evil people, but still) will get good stories.

----------


## oasis1313

> To play devil's advocate; King is writing Batman, not Nightwing. From his perspective, what he does has to impact Bruce's narrative, not Dick's. Putting Bruce through the pain and guilt and whatever else of having Dick injured is a perfectly viable narrative tool.
> .....I am assuming there's been some kind of fallout in King's Batman. I trade wait that (and am currently at least one trade behind, because Im in no rush here) so Im just assuming that King injured Dick so Bruce could brood about it. There has been brooding or something right?


Uh, no.  He just gave 'Beast a whomping, which he would have done anyway.  I'd rather shoot Beast shot somebody else.  Anybody else.

----------


## Ascended

Haven't watched Titans, but I do hear good things. And Im not worried at all about Young Justice treating Dick right, Im just worried he wont get as much screen time as I want him to.  :Smile: 

But you bring up an interesting question: how *does* Dick feel about lethal force? Obviously he's not a fan. He doesn't support it and he won't use it. Those're his "politics" so to speak. But have we ever seen him in a "rock-hard place" situation with it? A situation where innocent people will die if he doesn't pull the trigger, with no easy, plot-induced way out of it? 

Superman talks a lot about his no kill code, but he breaks it a lot more than people realize. He wont kill.....until he does. Bruce has tried a few times in main canon to take a life, but never succeeded. Have we ever seen Dick pushed to that limit, and if so, how did he handle it? I mean, we see the "life of death" stuff all the time and we see Nightwing pull out the miraculous save where no one dies at all.....but have there been times when there was no miraculous save to be had and Dick had to really look at the situation and make that call, with no escape available?

Clearly Dick isn't one for lethal force......but I wonder how he'd react in a situation where he didn't have a choice and had to really weigh lives? Could he bring himself to do it? How would he process that? And has he ever killed before and Im just forgetting it?

----------


## Ascended

> Well, comics office DC won't treat Dick any better any time soon. However, I believe that Young Justice Dick and Titans Dick (outside of blowing up the off the grid hospital full of people, evil people, but still) will get good stories.


Eh, you never know. WB is mercurial as sh*t, and it seems like every time I turn around some other jackass is in charge and has put other jackasses in new positions over DC. All it takes is one dude finding himself above Didio and deciding that he likes the Nightwing name, or the costume, or his niece is a fan, or whatever, and Didio will have to push Nightwing whether he wants to or not. You're probably right and we won't see any real improvement for many years, not until Didio leaves, but you never know. Not so many years ago, people would say Harley Quinn was *just* the Joker's girlfriend/sidekick, and look at her now. Merchandise sales talk. It's not impossible for Nightwing to find an X factor of his own that forces DC's hand whether they like it or not.

Haven't watched Titans, but I do hear all the good things. And Im not worried at all about Young Justice treating Dick right, Im just worried he wont get as much screen time as I want him to.  :Smile: 

But you bring up an interesting question: how *does* Dick feel about lethal force? Obviously he's not a fan. He doesn't support it and he won't use it. Those're his "politics" so to speak. But have we ever seen him in a "rock-hard place" situation with it? A situation where innocent people will die if he doesn't pull the trigger, with no easy, plot-induced way out of it? 

Superman talks a lot about his no kill code, but he breaks it a lot more than people realize. He wont kill.....until he does. Bruce has tried a few times in main canon to take a life, but never succeeded. Have we ever seen Dick pushed to that limit, and if so, how did he handle it? I mean, we see the "life of death" stuff all the time and we see Nightwing pull out the miraculous save where no one dies at all.....but have there been times when there was no miraculous save to be had and Dick had to really look at the situation and make that call, with no escape available?

Clearly Dick isn't one for lethal force......but I wonder how he'd react in a situation where he didn't have a choice and had to really weigh lives? Could he bring himself to do it? How would he process that? And has he ever killed before and Im just forgetting it?




> Uh, no.  He just gave 'Beast a whomping, which he would have done anyway.  I'd rather shoot Beast shot somebody else.  Anybody else.


But definitely not Tim Drake. We know how much you looovvvveee Tim, my friend!

----------


## Arsenal

Didn’t Dick briefly (like for a few seconds) kill the joker once?

----------


## byrd156

> Didn’t Dick briefly (like for a few seconds) kill the joker once?


He beat him in a rage, that's the closest Dick has ever been to killing some one.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, they explored it in Last Laugh, and then again with Block Buster. Both times sent him into a depression.

----------


## byrd156

> Ya, they explored it in Last Laugh, and then again with Block Buster. Both times sent him into a depression.


Yeah Dick is someone who can lose control but stop just short of doing the deed. I personally believe that he would never take a life. Dick is a safety net to everyone whether they deserve it or not.

----------


## K7P5V

> Yeah Dick is someone who can lose control but stop just short of doing the deed. I personally believe that he would never take a life. Dick is a safety net to everyone whether they deserve it or not.


Believing the Joker had killed Tim, Dick was understandably upset and really let the Joker have it. When Tim showed up unharmed, Dick realized what he'd done and was remorseful.

----------


## K7P5V

> Ya, they explored it in Last Laugh, and then again with Block Buster. Both times sent him into a depression.


The showdown between Dick and Blockbuster was truly an ordeal. Dick was so wasted, he allowed Tarantula to finish off Desmond permanently.

----------


## dropkickjake

> The showdown between Dick and Blockbuster was truly an ordeal. Dick was so wasted, he allowed Tarantula to finish off Desmond permanently.


Maybe we just don't talk about that issue...

----------


## Konja7

> Yeah Dick is someone who can lose control but stop just short of doing the deed. I personally believe that he would never take a life. Dick is a safety net to everyone whether they deserve it or not.


In the Death of the Family, Dick seemed quite willing to kill Joker in his comic.

----------


## Ascended

Man, I had totally forgotten all about the Tarantula/Blockbuster thing. Forced it out of my memory, I think.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I had never given it much thought but now I'm kind of fascinated by the idea of Dick being forced to confront lethal force. 

With Bruce, I personally favor the theory that he's incapable of taking a life. He's tried, and always failed and I suspect his failing is often his own subconscious. Like, in the War of Jokes & Riddles I have a hard time buying that Bruce was so slow in attacking Riddler that the Joker, who is never really shown as being Batman's equal on a physical level, was able to stop Batman's attack. Given everything Bruce has been through and the trauma of his childhood I like the idea that he has a mental block that wouldn't let him kill someone, under any circumstances, even when he snaps and does make an attempt. It just makes more sense to me than (for example) Snyder's idea that Bruce is afraid the universe will send him worse villains if he starts killing people like Joker.

But Dick is far more healthy (mentally) and well adjusted and he's not going to have that kind of barrier. Obviously he's not a lethal force kinda guy, and even refused to use guns as an agent of Spyral, but I think he's closer to Superman in this regard than Bruce. I think Dick doesn't want to take a life and would avoid it as much as possible, but I think if he were forced into a particular situation he'd do it. And probably spiral into a depression, much as Clark did after killing the Phantom Zone criminals. And I gotta be honest, Nightwing in his own "Exile" type story holds a lot more interest for me than Ric.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Not that I want to see blood on Dick's hands or anything.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Man, I had totally forgotten all about the Tarantula/Blockbuster thing. Forced it out of my memory, I think. 
> 
> I had never given it much thought but now I'm kind of fascinated by the idea of Dick being forced to confront lethal force.


This basic concept was the foundation for my favorite Grayson issue: The Gun Goes Off.

----------


## oasis1313

> But definitely not Tim Drake. We know how much you looovvvveee Tim, my friend!


And here I was trying to be nice  :Smile:  :Smile: !!!  'Beast definitely should have shot Timmy Wimmy because then Bruce would have just gone right out to the tallest elm tree of the grounds of his estate, and just hung himself.  Besides, even if 'Beast had shot out 2/3 of Timmy Wimmy's brains, he's still smarter than Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and Moon Girl put together.

----------


## Ascended

> This basic concept was the foundation for my favorite Grayson issue: The Gun Goes Off.


.....I really need to pull those issues out of longboxes and give them another read. Been far too long. Okay, refresh my memory on the issue?




> And here I was trying to be nice !!!


Sorry brother, couldn't resist.  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## dropkickjake

> .....I really need to pull those issues out of longboxes and give them another read. Been far too long. Okay, refresh my memory on the issue?


Broadest of strokes here, as its been a while, but Dick and Helena needed to deal with a fella named "the ol' Gun" or something. This fella was blind, and literally saw the world through his gun. On a rooftop, Dick tries to talk him down instead of taking him out. He just about succeeds before agent 8 snipes him from a roof top, but also "dies" herself. All of this was framed around King's famous repetition of dialogue: Dick being called Agent 37 and responding with "thats not my name." I havent read all of King's work on Batman, or much outside of Grayson really, but this really might be his best issue. Its my favorite single issue of all time. It was a great look at who Dick Grayson is and out of place he was in Spyral.

----------


## WonderNight

> Broadest of strokes here, as its been a while, but Dick and Helena needed to deal with a fella named "the ol' Gun" or something. This fella was blind, and literally the world through his gun. On a rooftop, Dick tries to talk him down instead of taking him out. He just about succeeds before agent 8 snipes him from a roof top, but also "dies" herself. All of this was framed around King's famous repetition of dialogue: Dick being called Agent 37 and responding with "thats not my name." I havent read all of King's work on Batman, or much outside of Grayson really, but this really might be his best issue. Its my favorite single issue of all time. It was a great look at who Dick Grayson is and out of place he was in Spyral.


That couldn't have been a look at who dick grayson was! Because he wasn't in a nightwing costumeand was a superspy. At less that's what some people say.

----------


## Ascended

> Broadest of strokes here, as its been a while, but Dick and Helena needed to deal with a fella named "the ol' Gun" or something. This fella was blind, and literally saw the world through his gun. On a rooftop, Dick tries to talk him down instead of taking him out. He just about succeeds before agent 8 snipes him from a roof top, but also "dies" herself. All of this was framed around King's famous repetition of dialogue: Dick being called Agent 37 and responding with "thats not my name." I havent read all of King's work on Batman, or much outside of Grayson really, but this really might be his best issue. Its my favorite single issue of all time. It was a great look at who Dick Grayson is and out of place he was in Spyral.


Oh yeah! I remember that issue now! 

Man, that was a great series. 

How the hell did we get that gem, in this age of Didio trying his best to ruin Dick Grayson?

----------


## byrd156

> In the Death of the Family, Dick seemed quite willing to kill Joker in his comic.


Death of the Family was bad, I completely forgot about that book.

----------


## Ascended

> In the Death of the Family, Dick seemed quite willing to kill Joker in his comic.


This is why I think villains should be a little careful around Nightwing. Sure, he's gonna try real hard not to kill you and he really doesn't want to.....but he doesn't seem to have the near-absolute inability like Bruce seems to. Dick's a "heart on his sleeve" kinda dude, and you better hope you don't push him *too* far or you just might find yourself in a "Zod" kind of situation; six feet under with a hero who "doesnt kill" standing over you wondering how he let you push him that far.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh yeah! I remember that issue now! 
> 
> Man, that was a great series. 
> 
> How the hell did we get that gem, in this age of Didio trying his best to ruin Dick Grayson?


Maybe Didio put Seeley and King off in a broom closet, well away from the nice fancy DC offices, and said, "Do what you like--just don't bother me with it."  And he ignored them until the book started getting some kudos, stuck his head out of his palatial editorial suite, and said, "Hey, I could put these guys on a higher-profile book!"

----------


## yohyoi

> This is why I think villains should be a little careful around Nightwing. Sure, he's gonna try real hard not to kill you and he really doesn't want to.....but he doesn't seem to have the near-absolute inability like Bruce seems to. Dick's a "heart on his sleeve" kinda dude, and you better hope you don't push him *too* far or you just might find yourself in a "Zod" kind of situation; six feet under with a hero who "doesnt kill" standing over you wondering how he let you push him that far.


I'm okay with Dick killing if is it is for the best. He is not Batman. The Joker needs to die. Everyone knows that. Dick is not psychologically damaged like Batman or Red Hood. He can kill someone irredeemable. Then understand it is for the best and that killing does not make him a bad person. Like a policeman or a soldier.

----------


## nhienphan2808

The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.

----------


## ross61

> Maybe Didio put Seeley and King off in a broom closet, well away from the nice fancy DC offices, and said, "Do what you like--just don't bother me with it."  And he ignored them until the book started getting some kudos, stuck his head out of his palatial editorial suite, and said, "Hey, I could put these guys on a higher-profile book!"


Seeley attached King to his hip for that run

----------


## yohyoi

> The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.


Even in those Elseworlds Dick is not a killer for killing sake. Bruce is somewhat insane, since he thinks if he kills once, he becomes the Joker or Bane. Dick kills on some Elseworlds, but not as a mad man; but as a sane man doing what he thinks is necessary. In the vampire Elseworld, it's because of revenge (Also he backed out in the last second). In New Order, it's because of peace (If we count freezing people in a comatose state as killing).

Dick has a rage inside him. But it is not psychopathic. It is more of a passionate rage. While Batman has the psychopathic rage which revels on the thought of violence. Dick has the passionate rage because his emotions get the best of him and he can't control it. Bruce became Dick's moral compass when Bruce took him as Robin, but the way they cope with their darkness are different. Batman is direct and physical. The brain. Dick is passive-aggressive and emotional. The heart. Same coin. Two different sides.

If Dick wasn't taken by Batman, he might have killed Zucco but stop there. He has never shown tendencies to hurt innocent normal people like Bruce. A lot of Elseworlds show him as a cop or detective. So Dick keeps his view of Justice with less vigilantism most of the time.

----------


## OWL45

> I'm okay with Dick killing if is it is for the best. He is not Batman. The Joker needs to die. Everyone knows that. Dick is not psychologically damaged like Batman or Red Hood. He can kill someone irredeemable. Then understand it is for the best and that killing does not make him a bad person. Like a policeman or a soldier.


Ya I agree with your perspective on the character. Very much how he is portrayed in the Titans show. I dont think that version of the character is as off base as was made out given the setting.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> The only reason Dick doesn't kill is i think he considers himself in Bruce's circle and a hero. He understands the no kill rule and why it is. But there are many speculations in the form of elseworld type stories that without Bruce or a good Batman, or heroes in his life he would be free to kill or lose his way of justice. Like the Earth where Batman is a vampire, or New Order. I personally believe that, and believe Bruce is as much Dick's moral compass as he is to Bruce. He HAS shown murder rage many times. I imagine he's as usually on the brink of killing as Bruce, when pushed.


IIRC Dick didn't kill anyone in New Order. Well, Bruce's death dramatically changed his perspective on justice, but I don't think he lost it.

----------


## dropkickjake

While I agree that Dick doesn't have the "mental block" towards killing that Bruce does, I don't think that Dick is capable of reasoning out "this person needs to die so I am going to kill him." For the Blockbuster incident, he was already mentally drained, exhausted, nearly broken. The Joker, though I haven't read the story, was more of an emotional response to loosing Tim. 

Both of these incidents sent him in to depression born of cognitive dissonance. Dick understands himself as "good." This is important to him. Jason and Damian both seem to have an understanding of themselves that by working with Batman they are redeeming themselves, which is to say that they were bad and are becoming good. Dick sees himself as "good," from the start though. He is a hero like Superman or Batman at his best. These are his role models and idols at a very deep level. But killing is "bad." Full stop. The times that he has even allowed a villain to be killed sort of guy punches his brain. Not only does he have trouble rectifying himself being a good guy if he just did the ultimate no-no, he also feels like he has let the people he loves down. This is a massive blow against his primary purpose as a human being, "Catching people when they fall."

----------


## Godlike13

I think Dick just generally doesn’t want to kill anybody. When he gets to that point, it’s because he’s driven there.

----------


## oasis1313

> While I agree that Dick doesn't have the "mental block" towards killing that Bruce does, I don't think that Dick is capable of reasoning out "this person needs to die so I am going to kill him." For the Blockbuster incident, he was already mentally drained, exhausted, nearly broken. The Joker, though I haven't read the story, was more of an emotional response to loosing Tim. 
> 
> Both of these incidents sent him in to depression born of cognitive dissonance. Dick understands himself as "good." This is important to him. Jason and Damian both seem to have an understanding of themselves that by working with Batman they are redeeming themselves, which is to say that they were bad and are becoming good. Dick sees himself as "good," from the start though. He is a hero like Superman or Batman at his best. These are his role models and idols at a very deep level. But killing is "bad." Full stop. The times that he has even allowed a villain to be killed sort of guy punches his brain. Not only does he have trouble rectifying himself being a good guy if he just did the ultimate no-no, he also feels like he has let the people he loves down. This is a massive blow against his primary purpose as a human being, "Catching people when they fall."


I would agree with you here.  Dick grew up in the shadows of Superman as well as Batman.   He views himself more as a protector than avenger.

----------


## Ascended

> I think Dick just generally doesnt want to kill anybody. When he gets to that point, its because hes driven there.


Oh certainly. I dont think Dick would ever say "Well, it's time to go hunt Joker down and murder-ize his face!" But in the heat of the moment, if faced with a dire situation, I think Dick would take a life. He's much more like Clark than Bruce that way. People

It'd tear him up afterwards of course, as someone said there's a dissonance between Dick's self-image and the act of taking a life, but I don't think it'd stop him if he was really motivated and didn't see another option.

----------


## oasis1313

> Oh certainly. I dont think Dick would ever say "Well, it's time to go hunt Joker down and murder-ize his face!" But in the heat of the moment, if faced with a dire situation, I think Dick would take a life. He's much more like Clark than Bruce that way. People
> 
> It'd tear him up afterwards of course, as someone said there's a dissonance between Dick's self-image and the act of taking a life, but I don't think it'd stop him if he was really motivated and didn't see another option.


If there was no other way, Dick would do what he had to do to protect someone else.  He wouldn't do it to save his own life, but he would for an innocent person.

----------


## byrd156

> Ya, they explored it in Last Laugh, and then again with Block Buster. Both times sent him into a depression.


Also don't forget the Joker was dying from cancer at the time too. (turns out he wasn't but whatever)

----------


## oasis1313

> Also don't forget the Joker was dying from cancer at the time too. (turns out he wasn't but whatever)


"Last Laugh"?  Is that in a tpb somewhere?

----------


## byrd156

> "Last Laugh"?  Is that in a tpb somewhere?


Found it here, not sure if it's the whole thing.

https://www.amazon.com/Batman-Jokers.../dp/1401217842

----------


## yohyoi

I realized Lobdell is the worst writer for two Robins. At some point, DC should have realized.

----------


## Pohzee

> I realized Lobdell is the worst writer for two Robins. At some point, DC should have realized.


You may have three unnecessary words in that sentence.

----------


## yohyoi

Titans Dick Grayson has balls! God, the series is so good. This is how Dick Grayson gets away from Batman. Not the adult sidekick we have in comics. Comics Nightwing gets punched and ordered by Batman. Tv Nightwing doesn't take any Batman's shit and punches him back. Why can't we have this? Where Batman needs Dick and Dick is not used as a sidekick. Titans win Best Dick Grayson this year.

----------


## OWL45

> Titans Dick Grayson has balls! God, the series is so good. This is how Dick Grayson gets away from Batman. Not the adult sidekick we have in comics. Comics Nightwing gets punched and ordered by Batman. Tv Nightwing doesn't take any Batman's shit and punches him back. Why can't we have this? Where Batman needs Dick and Dick is not used as a sidekick. Titans win Best Dick Grayson this year.


I agree. I dont focus on the comic Dick as much right now because I find the Titans Dick to be far superior. For 7 bucks a month I get the goodness that is Titans and soon YJ is coming. I was paying close to the same price monthly for 2 issues of NightWing.

----------


## WonderNight

> Titans Dick Grayson has balls! God, the series is so good. This is how Dick Grayson gets away from Batman. Not the adult sidekick we have in comics. Comics Nightwing gets punched and ordered by Batman. Tv Nightwing doesn't take any Batman's shit and punches him back. Why can't we have this? Where Batman needs Dick and Dick is not used as a sidekick. Titans win Best Dick Grayson this year.


Yep. YJ nightwing will be the best 2019 dick grayson, and comics  nightwing will continue to be batman's over grown sidekick.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Yep. YJ nightwing will be the best 2019 dick grayson, and comics  nightwing will continue to be batman's over grown sidekick.


Greg Weisman always knows how to work with characters. He did a great job in Gargoyles giving even Demona, one of the main antagonists, a great background into becoming what she was. Young Justice, alternate universe that it is, feels great, but also leaves enough that you want to explore more of it.

----------


## byrd156

> Greg Weisman always knows how to work with characters. He did a great job in Gargoyles giving even Demona, one of the main antagonists, a great background into becoming what she was. Young Justice, alternate universe that it is, feels great, but also leaves enough that you want to explore more of it.


Young Justice at this point is my main DCU since the comics have been so dreadful for so long.

----------


## Jackalope89

> Young Justice at this point is my main DCU since the comics have been so dreadful for so long.


At least Adventures of the Super Sons is still fun. And the Justice League splinter series, Dark and Odyssey, have been good thus far.

----------


## oasis1313

A Super Sons cartoon would be so much fun.  Was today’s Titans show good?  I’ve been at work all day.  Is this the finale episode?  Geoff Johns has done more for Dick Grayson in less than 12 hours than DC has done in years.

----------


## Godlike13

It was pretty good. Donna is pretty bad ass, but honestly Starfire might be the weakest part of this show.

----------


## byrd156

> It was pretty good. Donna is pretty bad ass, but honestly Starfire might be the weakest part of this show.


Starfire and Raven are both equally bad. Design, acting, writing, it boggles the mind when they do good work with other characters like Hawk & Dove or the Doom Patrol in one episode but can't do a season long character build.

----------


## Dzetoun

Besides the sheer improbability of the next episode (Batman vs Robin) being “real,” there are several internal elements that point to it being an illusion:

1) Dick living with Dawn
2) Jason in a wheelchair a la Oracle
3) Dick driving the Porsche that he traded off several episodes back

and, most of all

4) Kory and Trigon appearing as police officers 

So, Bruce’s murderous rampage is obviously all an illusion.  Having said that, _something_ must have really happened between Dick and Bruce to make Dick fear Bruce’s darkness so badly. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Batman of _Titans_ really is more violent, even more lethal, than the Batman of the main continuity. Even if this is obviously an hallucination, Bruce must be vicious enough in this universe for Dick to believe it could be true, else the illusion would have no emotional power.

----------


## byrd156

> Besides the sheer improbability of the next episode being “real,” there are several internal elements that point to it being an illusion:
> 
> 1) Dick living with Dawn
> 2) Jason in a wheelchair a la Oracle
> 3) Dick driving the Porsche that he traded off several episodes back
> 
> and, most of all
> 
> 4) Kory and Trigon appearing as police officers 
> ...


I think those Porsche driving scenes were reused from his joyride scenes. But yeah this seems like the old TNAB episode Over the Edge just darker.

----------


## Starrius

> Starfire and Raven are both equally bad. Design, acting, writing, it boggles the mind when they do good work with other characters like Hawk & Dove or the Doom Patrol in one episode but can't do a season long character build.



There are people that like what Anna Diop has been doing with her role.  They think she's acting well.  They even say that she's the strongest part of the show.
They like the writing so far and not bothered by the design.

----------


## byrd156

> There are people that like what Anna Diop has been doing with her role.  They think she's acting well.  They even say that she's the strongest part of the show.
> They like the writing so far and not bothered by the design.


Sure people say a lot of things, I'm saying my opinion. It's cool to like what you like or dislike what you dislike. I don't like what Titans has been doing and I think there has been some major missteps with the plot and characterizations of some of the Titans.

----------


## Starrius

> Sure people say a lot of things, I'm saying my opinion. It's cool to like what you like or dislike what you dislike. I don't like what Titans has been doing and I think there has been some major missteps with the plot and characterizations of some of the Titans.


I agree with you on that.
I actually don't like the designs of Starfire and the other Titans. 
I agree with your opinions about the plot and characterizations  
this episode, I don't like how they made Raven's mother turned out to be evil  and have her kill a sheriff and then manipulate Raven into bringing Trigon into the world like she loves him 
She was never like that in the comics

I think the evil,psycho killing Batman stuff is just Trigon messing with Dick's mind

----------


## yohyoi

If DC brings back Dick's memories, it should be in his own series. I'm hearing that Tomasi might do it in 'Tec. Why does the Nightwing series feel like a supporting book of whatever is happening in Gotham? Dick isn't shot in his own book. He got shot in Batman. If Dick gets his memories back, it might be in 'Tec. No wonder no one wants to write Nightwing. You have to be an underling of whoever is writing Batman or 'Tec. Even the Nightwing writer is treated as a sidekick and second-rate.

----------


## yohyoi

> Sure people say a lot of things, I'm saying my opinion. It's cool to like what you like or dislike what you dislike. I don't like what Titans has been doing and I think there has been some major missteps with the plot and characterizations of some of the Titans.


I treat it as an Elseworlds. Burton did not do a comic accurate Batman but it's still great and a classic. Nolan too. If I can somehow accept Batman killing in these movies, I can somehow accept too his and Dick's actions in Titans.

----------


## byrd156

> I treat it as an Elseworlds. Burton did not do a comic accurate Batman but it's still great and a classic. Nolan too. If I can somehow accept Batman killing in these movies, I can somehow accept too his and Dick's actions in Titans.


All other DC media are Elseworld tales. I don't care for the Titans version of most of these characters, I find the story to be boring and a lot of the characterizations to be lazy and uninteresting. I'm not asking for comic accurate versions, I'm just giving my thoughts and feelings about the Titans version.

----------


## Restingvoice

Jim Lee TEC 1000

DucbTHZUUAAVELY.jpg

I don't really care if he's back in this issue or if it's a flashback, I'm not buying current DC run until I see signs of change in management. A consistent run would be a good start.

----------


## Godlike13

> If DC brings back Dick's memories, it should be in his own series. I'm hearing that Tomasi might do it in 'Tec. Why does the Nightwing series feel like a supporting book of whatever is happening in Gotham? Dick isn't shot in his own book. He got shot in Batman. If Dick gets his memories back, it might be in 'Tec. No wonder no one wants to write Nightwing. You have to be an underling of whoever is writing Batman or 'Tec. Even the Nightwing writer is treated as a sidekick and second-rate.


I assume the idea in doing it in say ’Tec would be to try bring back readers that left.

----------


## James Hunter

> I assumed the idea in doing it in say ’Tec would be to try bring back readers that left.


I didn't think that many people had dropped 'TEC though (I haven't and didn't know of any drop)

----------


## Godlike13

> I didn't think that many people had dropped 'TEC though (I haven't and didn't know of any drop)


I meant readers that left Nightwing.

----------


## Badou

I'd be fine with Tomasi handling it. I trust him more than any writer that would be on the Nightwing book. 


Something I've been thinking about in regards to King's writing is did he ever plan on use Dick in Heroes in Crisis. It seems that Batgirl is going to make her appearance in it and it got me thinking. Did King at any point plan on having Dick be in Heroes in Crisis but the Ric story change his plans so he removed any mention of Dick from Hic, or did he never plan on having Dick be in HiC at all so it is a reason why he felt comfortable shooting him in the head and didn't care what DC did with that story afterwards like with the Ric thing. I know King said he didn't have any control over the Ric story, but given how Wally, Roy, all those Titans, and now Batgirl are all going to be involved in HiC you would think they would have to deal with Dick in the story in some capacity. 

I guess my point is I wonder where Dick not being involved in HiC originated. If it came from King not wanting to use him so editorial had to come up with a reason why Dick would not be involved, such as the dumb amnesia thing, or if the amnesia thing happened first and that changed King's plans. I have to think that it was the latter.

----------


## Godlike13

Ever since King’s tweet about Tomasi’s run I’ve been thinking that whenever the inevitable relaunch comes, Tomasi might be the writer. So that could be another reason why ‘Tec, if it happens.

----------


## byrd156

> Jim Lee TEC 1000
> 
> DucbTHZUUAAVELY.jpg
> 
> I don't really care if he's back in this issue or if it's a flashback, I'm not buying current DC run until I see signs of change in management. A consistent run would be a good start.


I'm just curious why there are so many villains in the Batcave.

----------


## byrd156

> I'd be fine with Tomasi handling it. I trust him more than any writer that would be on the Nightwing book. 
> 
> 
> Something I've been thinking about in regards to King's writing is did he ever plan on use Dick in Heroes in Crisis. It seems that Batgirl is going to make her appearance in it and it got me thinking. Did King at any point plan on having Dick be in Heroes in Crisis but the Ric story change his plans so he removed any mention of Dick from Hic, or did he never plan on having Dick be in HiC at all so it is a reason why he felt comfortable shooting him in the head and didn't care what DC did with that story afterwards like with the Ric thing. I know King said he didn't have any control over the Ric story, but given how Wally, Roy, all those Titans, and now Batgirl are all going to be involved in HiC you would think they would have to deal with Dick in the story in some capacity. 
> 
> I guess my point is I wonder where Dick not being involved in HiC originated. If it came from King not wanting to use him so editorial had to come up with a reason why Dick would not be involved, such as the dumb amnesia thing, or if the amnesia thing happened first and that changed King's plans. I have to think that it was the latter.


I know I have no proof and it's probably a stretch but this line of thinking makes me wonder. What if King shot Dick to get him out of HiC? Since so many Titans were being killed, maybe he shot him to keep him away. Just a thought.

----------


## oasis1313

> If DC brings back Dick's memories, it should be in his own series. I'm hearing that Tomasi might do it in 'Tec. Why does the Nightwing series feel like a supporting book of whatever is happening in Gotham? Dick isn't shot in his own book. He got shot in Batman. If Dick gets his memories back, it might be in 'Tec. No wonder no one wants to write Nightwing. You have to be an underling of whoever is writing Batman or 'Tec. Even the Nightwing writer is treated as a sidekick and second-rate.


Dick lost his memory in a Batbook; he should get it back there, and it should be a big multi-crossever event with lots of hype.  Heck, it should involve the whole DC Universe running around trying to find Dick's memories.  Like a scavenger hunt.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> I'm just curious why there are so many villains in the Batcave.


I think it's a nod to Hush.

----------


## oasis1313

> I'm just curious why there are so many villains in the Batcave.


Rodent infestation.  Call Orkin.

----------


## nightbird

After not being able to read any comics for many months, I see that nothing changed for Dick. DC still holding him down from flourishing and wasting his popularity and all potential.

----------


## yohyoi

Have you seen the Nightwing leak? Looks like someone is mad at DC and Lobdell. There are texts saying "Scott Lobdell Eats Ass" and "Scott Lobdell Is A Sexual Harasser".

----------


## yohyoi

Here it is:



If you look closer, you can see "Scott Lobdell Eats Ass" and "Scott Lobdell Is A Sexual Harasser".

----------


## yohyoi

My guess is it's someone inside or connected to DC who hates what they are doing to Nightwing. Remember when DiDio tried to kill Dick and there were protests within DC. Lobdell is self explanatory. You can google that bit.

Looks like we are still getting Ric and people have enough of it. Add the disasters that are Joker's Daughter and the 4 cop nobodies which are wearing Dick's costumes. I can understand the anger.

----------


## Badou

Just what a disaster this is. A complete mockery of the character and it will lead to nothing changing. I don't expect his series to get any better treatment after this is over. It is so frustrating. 

I still bet that this shitty Joker's Daughter story is just DC going to Lobdell and saying that they want to do a Joker-ish story for Nigthwing. So he used Joker's Daughter because he has some weird fascination with her. Maybe it is because they wanted Nightwing to have a Joker story while that 3 Jokers story is going on too. At least people can stop defending Lobdell as he isn't writing someone elses story at this point. These are all his own terrible ideas and he is probably enjoying shitting on Dick's character while he is at it.

----------


## yohyoi

> Just what a disaster this is. A complete mockery of the character and it will lead to nothing changing. I don't expect his series to get any better treatment after this is over. It is so frustrating. 
> 
> I still bet that this shitty Joker's Daughter story is just DC going to Lobdell and saying that they want to do a Joker-ish story for Nigthwing. So he used Joker's Daughter because he has some weird fascination with her. Maybe it is because they wanted Nightwing to have a Joker story while that 3 Jokers story is going on too. At least people can stop defending Lobdell as he isn't writing someone elses story at this point. These are all his own terrible ideas and he is probably enjoying shitting on Dick's character while he is at it.


People need to understand that even this isn't Lobdell's idea, he is complicit in this mess. He is DiDio's writer pet since the New 52 for a reason. Percy had the guts to say no to DC and DiDio. Lobdell doesn't have the same honor.

----------


## oasis1313

Yeah, this is looking like a long-term plan, increasingly so.  Maybe Didio wants to drive down sales enough to justify canceling the book and offing the character he hates.  I can’t think of much else in the way of reason for this.  My expectations are so low all I want is for Dick to grow some hair.

----------


## Badou

> People need to understand that even this isn't Lobdell's idea, he is complicit in this mess. He is DiDio's writer pet since the New 52 for a reason. Percy had the guts to say no to DC and DiDio. Lobdell doesn't have the same honor.


If only DC cared enough about the Nightwing book as they did for one Heroes in Crisis cover. Fans complain about that cover and DC rushes to change it immediately, but an entirely awful story acr fans hate more just continues on despite it.

----------


## king81992

> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> If you look closer, you can see "Scott Lobdell Eats Ass" and "Scott Lobdell Is A Sexual Harasser".


This reminds me of the cover of a Goosebumps book.

----------


## yohyoi

Lobdell will do a New 52 Teen Titans on Nightwing. Why not just kill Dick? Less suffering. Less humiliation. More humane. Oh wait, DiDio hates Dick because he makes Batman look old. Boohoo...hoo...

----------


## Badou

> Yeah, this is looking like a long-term plan, increasingly so.  Maybe Didio wants to drive down sales enough to justify canceling the book and offing the character he hates.  I can’t think of much else in the way of reason for this.  My expectations are so low all I want is for Dick to grow some hair.


This will last at least until HiC is over, but the big fear was it lasting all the way until King's Summer Batman event and that might happen. I can see DC wanting to sideline the character all the way until then and not really care what crap they churn out. Since they don't have any real plans for the character and are just buying time until they relaunch the book in 2019 probably.

----------


## Pohzee

> Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> If you look closer, you can see "Scott Lobdell Eats Ass" and "Scott Lobdell Is A Sexual Harasser".


Looks more like red wings to me. But seriously why can’t this just be over yet?

----------


## oasis1313

> This will last at least until HiC is over, but the big fear was it lasting all the way until King's Summer Batman event and that might happen. I can see DC wanting to sideline the character all the way until then and not really care what crap they churn out. Since they don't have any real plans for the character and are just buying time until they relaunch the book in 2019 probably.


I’d be grateful for a relaunch right now.

----------


## yohyoi

> If only DC cared enough about the Nightwing book as they did for one Heroes in Crisis cover. Fans complain about that cover and DC rushes to change it immediately, but an entirely awful story acr fans hate more just continues on despite it.


Look at DC's social media and it is filled with tens to hundreds of comments hating and complaining about Ric. More reactions and comments than any other character they have. What does DC do? Double down on Ric and cover their ears. You are right. DC doesn't care about Dick.

----------


## Godlike13

> My guess is it's someone inside or connected to DC who hates what they are doing to Nightwing. Remember when DiDio tried to kill Dick and there were protests within DC. Lobdell is self explanatory. You can google that bit.
> 
> Looks like we are still getting Ric and people have enough of it. Add the disasters that are Joker's Daughter and the 4 cop nobodies which are wearing Dick's costumes. I can understand the anger.


Its Tako. He finds leaks. Its his things. But more to the point, the nobody Nightwing's are still alive. Why?

----------


## tako

> Its Tako. He finds leaks. Its his things. But more to the point, the nobody Nightwing's are still alive. Why?


aye. my leek but I didn't post it though.

----------


## byrd156

The thing that I hate the most about this arc is the idea of some poor comic newbie picking up Nightwing for the first time. Maybe they always loved, liked, or were interested in the character and this is their first exposure to him in comics. It breaks my heart, either they won't know any better and love it because it's made by DC or scare them away from Dick or DC.

----------


## Pohzee

> aye. my leek but I didn't post it though.


Love the watermarks

----------


## Rac7d*

I am exausted watching that last episode a seoncd time, jsut make him nightwing dammit then we cut 2 weeks later to consitent nightwing

----------


## Godlike13

Also whats with this filth on Ric's face. Im seeing it on multiple covers now. Do they not realize he's a hobo. Ric is a homeless person who is now purposely running around with filth on his face. They have literally turned Dick into a filthy hobo. This is seriously some of the dumbest crap ive ever seen in comics, LoL.

----------


## Hizashi

If Dick needs a "Jokeresque" antagonist, why not use James Gordon Jr? Where's he been?

----------


## Hizashi

> Yeah, this is looking like a long-term plan, increasingly so.  Maybe Didio wants to drive down sales enough to justify canceling the book and offing the character he hates.  I cant think of much else in the way of reason for this.  My expectations are so low all I want is for Dick to grow some hair.


Isn't there _anyone_ who can keep Didio from doing this?

----------


## tako

> If Dick needs a "Jokeresque" antagonist, why not use James Gordon Jr? Where's he been?


Batman Who Laughs and Batgirl

----------


## Jared S

From the Batman who Laughs 3 Teaser:




> THE BATMAN WHO LAUGHS #3
> All the pieces are starting to fit together as the Batman Who Laughs acquires another key element in his plan—one that is linked to the founding fathers of Gotham City and to a legacy started by the Wayne family and protected by none other than Oswald Cobblepot. While the Penguin goes head-to-head with the darkest version of his mortal enemy, Batman is forced to compromise his principles and purge the serum that protects his heart from the deadly Joker Toxin! It’s a no-win situation as *writer Scott Snyder and artist Jock return to the sociopath they created in “Black Mirror”: James Gordon Jr.*


Much as I want to see him again, I'm disappointed to see him as a Batman (or Batgirl) antagonist. I would prefer him against Nightwing, because they are great foils. It mystifies me that they haven't used him yet in Nightwing comics, unless Snyder has asked them not to for some reason.

----------


## oasis1313

> Isn't there _anyone_ who can keep Didio from doing this?


I don't know.  The only people who seem to have the clout to rein him in are the Warners bigwigs, and this is such small potatoes to them that they'd need a microscope to even see it.  Didio's only job is publish funnybooks so Warners won't lose the copyrights.  There doesn't seem to be any accountability.  I'd LOVE a gig like that.

----------


## yohyoi

> The thing that I hate the most about this arc is the idea of some poor comic newbie picking up Nightwing for the first time. Maybe they always loved, liked, or were interested in the character and this is their first exposure to him in comics. It breaks my heart, either they won't know any better and love it because it's made by DC or scare them away from Dick or DC.


I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.

----------


## magpieM

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


"Edgy teenagers", I saw you describe us like this for the second time.

----------


## Spider-Ham

I feel really really sorry for you, Dick Fans. That cover is really disturbing. Crazy to think that one year ago, Dick could have been a dad.

----------


## oasis1313

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


We're not riding the book--we're carrying it.  Six of us on each side of the coffin.

----------


## byrd156

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


Even though the book is hot garbage I would still be buying it if I didn't move. I still need to find a new comic store near me.

----------


## Godlike13

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


Right, I really don’t get who the audience is here. Not sure the creators even do either. For Nightwing’s current readers Ric and the nobody brigade are just insulting. The current writers have Ric just continully demean Dick in an misguided and clueless attempt to get Ric over, while they basically just whipe their ass with the Nightwing persona by diminishing it with this team of boring nobodies that will never be seen again after.
 And for new fans this clearly looks like scrambled together crap and Ric as a character I don’t see where there would be appeal for a new reader. He looks terrible most of the time, and he isn’t actually doing anything particularly interesting or catching. He really doesn’t do much of anything at all. Creative team wise the writer on this has one of the worst reputations in DC, and visually things aren’t much better. There’s one decent artist you get a couple pretty pages from, but other wise you get a hodgepodge of different artists with rough styles and a character that mostly looks boring and ugly. So there’s not really even visual appeal here imo. So ya, really not seeing the draw here for new readers either.

----------


## dropkickjake

How annoyed does Seeley have to be right now? I mean shit, if they didn't want Dick to Nightwing they could have just left him as freaking Grayson.

----------


## Onthetrapeze

> How annoyed does Seeley have to be right now? I mean shit, if they didn't want Dick to Nightwing they could have just left him as freaking Grayson.


And we could have gotten a much better story. Why can't DC ask Seeley back？

----------


## Rac7d*

> The thing that I hate the most about this arc is the idea of some poor comic newbie picking up Nightwing for the first time. Maybe they always loved, liked, or were interested in the character and this is their first exposure to him in comics. It breaks my heart, either they won't know any better and love it because it's made by DC or scare them away from Dick or DC.


Me too to
20 weeks of titans and soon to hebfollowes by young justice where dick Grayson is the lead and in charge and it gets wasted because they decide to take out nightwing

Its sabotage

----------


## oasis1313

> Right, I really don’t get who the audience is here. Not sure the creators even do either. For Nightwing’s current readers Ric and the nobody brigade are just insulting. The current writers have Ric just continully demean Dick in an misguided and clueless attempt to get Ric over, while they basically just whipe their ass with the Nightwing persona by diminishing it with this team of boring nobodies that will never be seen again after.
>  And for new fans this clearly looks like scrambled together crap and Ric as a character I don’t see where there would be appeal for a new reader. He looks terrible most of the time, and he isn’t actually doing anything particularly interesting or catching. He really doesn’t do much of anything at all. Creative team wise the writer on this has one of the worst reputations in DC, and visually things aren’t much better. There’s one decent artist you get a couple pretty pages from, but other wise you get a hodgepodge of different artists with rough styles and a character that mostly looks boring and ugly. So there’s not really even visual appeal here imo. So ya, really not seeing the draw here for new readers either.


I don't think DC is particularly trying to get Ric over into anybody's hearts except Didio's--there is a rule on the job that you want to make your boss happy so he'll keep signing the paychecks.  They're just printing the book because they don't want to lose the Nightwing copyright--at the moment.

----------


## Ascended

They wont let the copyright slide. Even if DC has no plans on using the name on a regular basis, they'll use it enough to maintain their rights to it, just so no one else can get it, if for no other reason.

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


I've seen people who've said that they don't like Nightwing as a character say they like Ric. Which speaks volumes. And not the good kind

----------


## astro@work

> I don't even know who is the audience for Ric. Edgy teenagers already have Red Hood or Batman Who Laughs to read. Ric is scaring both old and new readers away. *The only ones left are diehard Dick Grayson fans that will ride this book to its' bitter end*. It doesn't get new audience, while testing the patience of the few fans left.


Not true. This diehard Dick fan just cut it loose from my pull list, because I'm so disgusted with what they've done to my favorite character. I can't support this book anymore, I'll just deal with the hole in my collection.

----------


## oasis1313

> I've seen people who've said that they don't like Nightwing as a character say they like Ric. Which speaks volumes. And not the good kind


I wish some of these folks who like Ric would come over here to this forum and tell us what there is to like.  Maybe it could help us out a little.

----------


## Ascended

> Not true. This diehard Dick fan just cut it loose from my pull list, because I'm so disgusted with what they've done to my favorite character. I can't support this book anymore, I'll just deal with the hole in my collection.


Why not just take a book off your pull when the quality is low (like it is with Dick right now) and get the issues out of the bargain bins? 

That way DC is losing your pre-order and the money from it, which tells them you wont support crappy quality, your LCS is making up the difference on what it already spent on those copies in the back-issue bin so you're supporting your local business, and your collection doesn't have to take a hit.

----------


## tako

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...vel-nightwing/

Turns out Nightwing's suffering was just about to begin!

----------


## nhienphan2808

> The thing that I hate the most about this arc is the idea of some poor comic newbie picking up Nightwing for the first time. Maybe they always loved, liked, or were interested in the character and this is their first exposure to him in comics. It breaks my heart, either they won't know any better and love it because it's made by DC or scare them away from Dick or DC.


This has been a problem of Dick since like 2004. There are articles circa 2006 or something that say "Nightwing is just sexy, in anything else he's kinda dumb and redundant" I personally got into DC in 2012 and he already got that reputation of "that guy who everyone loves but really has nothing special about him" . people came to Dc because of him and they left him to move on to Batman or better characters. But i was curious about different portrayals so i tried to read everything Dick Grayson. I told a friend of mine who also was new and believed in DC's modern "branding" of the Batboys about well written Dick pre Devin Grayson and they said "I am still not a Dick fan but i feel sorry for his new fans - the old Dick deserved every praise, what a guy."

I don't feel that outrage about Ric - because bar Grayson, DC has killed averything he had since the New52. It's not like there's better things waiting for Dick to come back to. His family and friends are both a mess now.

----------


## Godlike13

Just kill the book and start over already. Lobdell is just repeating old story lines, and the creative team decisions continues to be an utter disaster.

----------


## Badou

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...vel-nightwing/
> 
> Turns out Nightwing's suffering was just about to begin!


Maybe DC can put Brian Wood on the book next and go 3 for 3 with sexual harassers, lol. 

What a fucking mess. It is comical at this point. Just no plan for what to do with this series and just shuffling in creative team after creative team. No big named writer is going to touch this series with how badly managed it is. I'd be fine with them just cancelling the book. Just let Tomasi use the character in Detective and ignore everything else.

----------


## byrd156

> Maybe DC can put Brian Wood on the book next and go 3 for 3 with sexual harassers, lol. 
> 
> What a fucking mess. It is comical at this point. Just no plan for what to do with this series and just shuffling in creative team after creative team. No big named writer is going to touch this series with how badly managed it is. I'd be fine with them just cancelling the book. Just let Tomasi use the character in Detective and ignore everything else.


I want the next writer to just start with Dick waking up in the hospital. This whole arc turns out to be a horrible dream.

----------


## Godlike13

I’ve said this before, but someone high up at DC really needs to take a look at the management on the book. It’s beyond ridiculous at this point.

----------


## Ascended

I fear that someone high up at DC is why we're in this state in the first place.

Percy was brought on Nightwing with a long-term plan. He's not a big name but he brought consistent, respectable numbers to Arrow (I think?) and it seemed like DC was just gonna let him do his thing and basically ignore Dick. Then King had an idea for Batman that involved injuring Nightwing. And Percy's plans got thrown out the window.

I dont know how DC structures its editorial groups or how much those editors have to answer to their bosses for the day-to-day stuff. But whoever approves those things approved the King story and completely derailed the company's plan for Percy-Nightwing. The fact that it threw a title completely out of whack and ruined the creator's plans says to me that this wasn't a run of the mill decision the editors didn't have to get approval for.

What we need is for one of DC's overseers at WB to take notice. As someone said, this is so small-time for those guys they'd need a microscope to notice it, and wouldn't give a damn about the loss of revenue at all. But maybe they'd care about the kind of treatment one of their IP's (one of their more well known ones, if not one of their biggest) is getting. The comics dont matter, but Nightwing has potential in broader markets, and those do matter. That WB manager might not like seeing one of the company's products getting sh*t on, since it damages the brand and that brand could find its way onto the new (unproven) streaming service or even a movie (if that actually happens, which I have many doubts about).

----------


## yohyoi

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...vel-nightwing/
> 
> Turns out Nightwing's suffering was just about to begin!


Nightwing is a mess. DC won't fix it because they don't want to give him to a popular and great writer. They rather use newbie writers on one of their most popular characters. DC suck!

----------


## Robanker

> Why not just take a book off your pull when the quality is low (like it is with Dick right now) and get the issues out of the bargain bins? 
> 
> That way DC is losing your pre-order and the money from it, which tells them you wont support crappy quality, your LCS is making up the difference on what it already spent on those copies in the back-issue bin so you're supporting your local business, and your collection doesn't have to take a hit.


This is how I normally do this sort of thing too, even if there's a variant cover I wouldn't want to miss. At the end of the day, I want Nightwing stories to read and this current stuff isn't that-- good or bad. If you want Dick to return to form, you'll have to get the issues at a later date or skip them altogether. Losing the "I must have each and every issue" mentality will help you a lot more in the long run.

----------


## Digifiend

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...vel-nightwing/
> 
> Turns out Nightwing's suffering was just about to begin!


Wait, you're the one who leaked that page to them, right? Do you have the whole catalogue?

And I think it's obvious that issue 58 will have to be rewritten, which means delays.

----------


## Pohzee

Holy shit. I can't believe how many times over the past 2 years I've assumed it couldn't get any worse. Yet I am continually proved wrong.

----------


## Ascended

> Losing the "I must have each and every issue" mentality will help you a lot more in the long run.


Im so glad I dont have that mentality. I'll drop a book any time I start to dislike it. No matter who the character is, or for how long the quality keeps me away. My collection is all holes, but I wouldnt want it any other way. I'll not tell DC with my wallet that they're doing a good job when they give me mindless, half-ass crap.

----------


## ross61

> I fear that someone high up at DC is why we're in this state in the first place.
> 
> Percy was brought on Nightwing with a long-term plan. He's not a big name but he brought consistent, respectable numbers to Arrow (I think?) and it seemed like DC was just gonna let him do his thing and basically ignore Dick. Then King had an idea for Batman that involved injuring Nightwing. And Percy's plans got thrown out the window.
> 
> I dont know how DC structures its editorial groups or how much those editors have to answer to their bosses for the day-to-day stuff. But whoever approves those things approved the King story and completely derailed the company's plan for Percy-Nightwing. The fact that it threw a title completely out of whack and ruined the creator's plans says to me that this wasn't a run of the mill decision the editors didn't have to get approval for.
> 
> What we need is for one of DC's overseers at WB to take notice. As someone said, this is so small-time for those guys they'd need a microscope to notice it, and wouldn't give a damn about the loss of revenue at all. But maybe they'd care about the kind of treatment one of their IP's (one of their more well known ones, if not one of their biggest) is getting. The comics dont matter, but Nightwing has potential in broader markets, and those do matter. That WB manager might not like seeing one of the company's products getting sh*t on, since it damages the brand and that brand could find its way onto the new (unproven) streaming service or even a movie (if that actually happens, which I have many doubts about).


With the way WB is set up they won't care.

Why does everyone want a  big name writer instead of just a good one? Before the news about Eric came out, he was considered a good writer and someone with a decent voice for teens. There would be no controversy if we didn't know what we know now.

----------


## oasis1313

> Wait, you're the one who leaked that page to them, right? Do you have the whole catalogue?
> 
> And I think it's obvious that issue 58 will have to be rewritten, which means delays.


I don't think DC will bother with rewrites.  The book just isn't that important to them.

----------


## yohyoi

Green Arrow is getting cancelled, while Nightwing is being continued without any plans. DC just wants Dick and his fans to suffer right now.

----------


## Godlike13

Ya, it’s probably just wishful thinking that the current management on the book would just give it a break to regroup. It would be an admission of the managements failure here in a way, so they’re not gonna do that. There gonna stick to thier plan. Which was to continue to mock us with Ric and regurgitate bad ideas that failed, while they find creators with even worse reputations. LoL, this really is just comical.

----------


## Badou

Them looking to put Eric Esquivel on the title is completely within their management style. They put a young sort of unproven writer on the book to test out and if it works they will move them up to a bigger book probably. This was all planned before the stuff that came out about him. I think them moving a somewhat tested writer like Percy like they did over to the book is kind of rare. 

What I really think it comes down to is that there is just no one at the company right now that will go to bat for Dick's character. That will fight to put the character in the best position possible or really want to push the boundaries of what to do with the title like you see Priest on Deathstroke, Johns on Shazam, a Tomasi for a Damian, Lobdell for Jason, or even a Snyder for Batman. A creator that feels attached to him and will never undermine, sabotage, or let the character be jerked around to a gross amount like he has been. Seeley did his best I think but he got worn down and wanted out and probably only stayed on because of how much he enjoyed the Gryason series. 

I think bigger creators like King or Johns will continue to drag the character through the mud if they think it suits Batman's narrative and have no interest in Dick's character beyond that, so the book will continue to get a rotating set of creators that don't really have any big plans because of how limited they are with Dick's character right now, in terms of how irrelevant the character is across the DCU and how bogged down he is in management. Creators on his book have very little freedom to write in ways that could elevate the character and are stuck regurgitating the same stuff. I don't really see what they can do given that Bludhaven has failed, the Titans has failed, and don't see how it can change given the current status quo. Like I don't see some creator jumping on and it all magically works suddenly because the same problems will still exist.

----------


## ross61

When has the writer of an acclaimed book ever been “unproven”?


And man, that’s gotta feel terrible knowing no big writer really cares about your favorite character.

----------


## Badou

> When has the writer of an acclaimed book ever been “unproven”?
> 
> 
> And man, that’s gotta feel terrible knowing no big writer really cares about your favorite character.


Border Town had like 4 issues before it was cancelled. He would count as someone that was unproven in terms of writing for the Big 2. Just look at the history of the book since the start of the New 52. Higgins was a new unproven writer when he got the new 52 Nightwing book. Was his first ongoing series I believe. King and Seeley were unproven when put on Grayson. I don't think King had written a ongoing series before then, and while Seeley had experience on this own creator work he didn't really do much Big 2 stuff. Then the characters that filled in were new writers from their creator workshop. A Humphries or a Percy were kind of rare, but also had the shortest run out of all these creators and saw how the book was being treated and had the clout to leave or asked to be moved elsewhere. 

And it isn't about them caring, but not caring enough to go to bat for the character. So it leads to a constant shuffling of creative teams and the character being jerked around.

----------


## ross61

> Border Town had like 4 issues before it was cancelled. He would count as someone that was unproven in terms of writing for the Big 2. Just look at the history of the book since the start of the New 52. Higgins was a new unproven writer when he got the new 52 Nightwing book. Was his first ongoing series I believe. King and Seeley were unproven when put on Grayson. I don't think King had written a ongoing series before then, and while Seeley had experience on this own creator work he didn't really do much Big 2 stuff. Then the characters that filled in were new writers from their creator workshop. A Humphries or a Percy were kind of rare, but also had the shortest run out of all these creators and saw how the book was being treated and had the clout to leave or asked to be moved elsewhere. 
> 
> And it isn't about them caring, but not caring enough to go to bat for the character. So it leads to a constant shuffling of creative teams and the character being jerked around.


Border Town was getting acclaim and great press before Eric was outed. It still would’ve if (unfortunately), he wasn’t exposed.

I hope you realize there are publishers outside of the big two and some of the best comic writers aren’t even writing at the big two these days. Hell, dozens of these “proven” writers were unproven going by your definition of it.

What happens when y’all get that big name on your title and it still sucks?


If they don’t care enough to bat for them do they really care at all? :/

----------


## oasis1313

> Them looking to put Eric Esquivel on the title is completely within their management style. They put a young sort of unproven writer on the book to test out and if it works they will move them up to a bigger book probably. This was all planned before the stuff that came out about him. I think them moving a somewhat tested writer like Percy like they did over to the book is kind of rare. 
> 
> What I really think it comes down to is that there is just no one at the company right now that will go to bat for Dick's character. That will fight to put the character in the best position possible or really want to push the boundaries of what to do with the title like you see Priest on Deathstroke, Johns on Shazam, a Tomasi for a Damian, Lobdell for Jason, or even a Snyder for Batman. A creator that feels attached to him and will never undermine, sabotage, or let the character be jerked around to a gross amount like he has been. Seeley did his best I think but he got worn down and wanted out and probably only stayed on because of how much he enjoyed the Gryason series. 
> 
> I think bigger creators like King or Johns will continue to drag the character through the mud if they think it suits Batman's narrative and have no interest in Dick's character beyond that, so the book will continue to get a rotating set of creators that don't really have any big plans because of how limited they are with Dick's character right now, in terms of how irrelevant the character is across the DCU and how bogged down he is in management. Creators on his book have very little freedom to write in ways that could elevate the character and are stuck regurgitating the same stuff. I don't really see what they can do given that Bludhaven has failed, the Titans has failed, and don't see how it can change given the current status quo. Like I don't see some creator jumping on and it all magically works suddenly because the same problems will still exist.


Johns has written Dick better than anyone lately (and for the TV show).  But I don't know how interested he is in comics now that he's doing TV.  Maybe Fabian could take up writing Nightwing, and plot as well as dialogue.  He likes Nightwing--maybe if he got to choose directions for it.

----------


## kjn

> I hope you realize there are publishers outside of the big two and some of the best comic writers aren’t even writing at the big two these days. Hell, dozens of these “proven” writers were unproven going by your definition of it.


Thing is, one can be a proven writer in some respect and not be proven in another.

There is a huge differences between writing your own story in your own world with your own characters to your own schedule, compared to writing for one of the big publishers, with an established world, characters who have been around for longer than you've been alive, with a fixed schedule, and where your work needs to slot into the work of other writers and creators.

----------


## Badou

> Border Town was getting acclaim and great press before Eric was outed. It still would’ve if (unfortunately), he wasn’t exposed.
> 
> I hope you realize there are publishers outside of the big two and some of the best comic writers aren’t even writing at the big two these days. Hell, dozens of these “proven” writers were unproven going by your definition of it.


Guess I see a big difference in writing just 4 issues of your own series verses writing a much bigger ongoing series with a lot more editorial and management oversight. Seeley was far more accomplished than this guy before writing Grayson because writing for these bigger publishers (I know Esquivel was writing at DC's Vertigo branch) is still very different than writing your own small ongoing series that you have much more control over and don't have to worry about management or other writers and their stories. It is much more complex. Some writers can do very well on their own projects but suck when it comes to the Big 2.  




> What happens when y’all get that big name on your title and it still sucks?


What is the alternative? It sucking with crappy writers? I don't get the question. Every fan would want better talent on their book regardless of the outcome because it shows how management looks at the series and the property. 

But it sounds like you don't give a shit so I don't know why you are so bothered by it, lol.

----------


## Badou

> Johns has written Dick better than anyone lately (and for the TV show).  But I don't know how interested he is in comics now that he's doing TV.  Maybe Fabian could take up writing Nightwing, and plot as well as dialogue.  He likes Nightwing--maybe if he got to choose directions for it.


How many of those episodes did Johns write? I have enjoyed Dick's character in the Titans show but I do have some problems with some of the decisions made with him. Some of those might be from Johns. It is miles better than what we've gotten in the comics though so I don't want to complain too much. It is a good adaptation overall and much better than I would have thought.

----------


## ross61

> Thing is, one can be a proven writer in some respect and not be proven in another.
> 
> There is a huge differences between writing your own story in your own world with your own characters to your own schedule, compared to writing for one of the big publishers, with an established world, characters who have been around for longer than you've been alive, with a fixed schedule, and where your work needs to slot into the work of other writers and creators.


Youre gonna have to give examples of writers who are good at their own work but suck at big two.

----------


## Godlike13

I’ll take a hungry new writer who’s looking to prove himself at this point. One that’s preferablly not a scumbag though. It’s a bit of a gamble sure, but it would still be better then Lobdell and his rehash of DC You ideas that bombed.

----------


## astro@work

> https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/12...vel-nightwing/
> 
> Turns out Nightwing's suffering was just about to begin!


This is exactly why I just dropped Nightwing. Current arc is over and they're STILL defining him as amnesiac Ric who doesn't go by his real name OR even sport the costume. I don't need a regular ongoing about a guy who doesn't remember being the hero I liked while a bunch of posers parade around in his costume. Literally no idea what DC's endgame is with this one....other than to kill interest in Nightwing.

----------


## Konja7

> Johns has written Dick better than anyone lately (and for the TV show).  But I don't know how interested he is in comics now that he's doing TV.  Maybe Fabian could take up writing Nightwing, and plot as well as dialogue.  He likes Nightwing--maybe if he got to choose directions for it.


Even if Johns is still interested in comics, I doubt he is interested in Dick in comics. 

You have to take into account that Johns has much more freedom to write the character in Titans show. 

Also, in Titans show, Dick is the hero who seeks his independence and his own place. However, this is a Dick arc that has been seen too many times in comics.

----------


## Badou

> I’ll take a hungry new writer who’s looking to prove himself at this point. One that’s preferablly not a scumbag though. It’s a bit of a gamble sure, but it would still be better then Lobdell and his rehash of DC You ideas that bombed.


Problem with a young unproven writer is I don't know if they will be able to handle the amount the character gets jerked around by other creators and books. They are kind of at the whims of bigger creators and editorial. Probably more so with Nightwing that most. Maybe a more established writer could push back against that some, but if we got a young writer that was allowed to do what they want again like we got with Grayson then that would be great, but I don't know if we will ever get a series with that much freedom again with how management is.

----------


## oasis1313

> How many of those episodes did Johns write? I have enjoyed Dick's character in the Titans show but I do have some problems with some of the decisions made with him. Some of those might be from Johns. It is miles better than what we've gotten in the comics though so I don't want to complain too much. It is a good adaptation overall and much better than I would have thought.


I've watched the ending credits every week and he has scripted several episodes solo, co-written many others.  There are many decisions in it that I'm not fond of, but it's much better than I thought it would be.  Since Johns has graduated from paper into celluloid, I doubt he has much--if any--interest in comics anymore.  The paychecks are probably better doing movies and television.

----------


## Robanker

> Im so glad I dont have that mentality. I'll drop a book any time I start to dislike it. No matter who the character is, or for how long the quality keeps me away. My collection is all holes, but I wouldnt want it any other way. I'll not tell DC with my wallet that they're doing a good job when they give me mindless, half-ass crap.


I had that phase when I was much younger and am glad to have moved away from it.

Back on topic and in general to unhappy fans still picking up the book, Nightwing is my absolute favorite DC character but I can't sign off on DC's treatment of him or his generation. Ultimately, your collection can be salvaged at a later date using shops, conventions and online retailers. Vote with your wallet. Didio's grudge against the OG sidekick generation can only be validated if you support this sort of thing. Spend your money elsewhere on books you'll enjoy and look forward to each month, or on back issues staring Nightwing.

----------


## yohyoi

> When has the writer of an acclaimed book ever been unproven?
> 
> 
> And man, thats gotta feel terrible knowing no big writer really cares about your favorite character.


The sad truth when your favorite character is a toxic brand in comics due to DC's management. Wally West fans know this too. DC hates their legacy characters. Silver Age wanking will never end.

----------


## oasis1313

> I had that phase when I was much younger and am glad to have moved away from it.
> 
> Back on topic and in general to unhappy fans still picking up the book, Nightwing is my absolute favorite DC character but I can't sign off on DC's treatment of him or his generation. Ultimately, your collection can be salvaged at a later date using shops, conventions and online retailers. Vote with your wallet. Didio's grudge against the OG sidekick generation can only be validated if you support this sort of thing. Spend your money elsewhere on books you'll enjoy and look forward to each month, or on back issues staring Nightwing.


Dick Grayson will be blamed for the low sales--not the creators or editorial.  The comics industry is one of the few "professional" areas where you can completely destroy an entire line of books out of sheer stupidity--then get promoted on to more high-profile projects because you are a "name."

----------


## oasis1313

I think writers are more interested in their own created characters than in legacy characters.

----------


## Konja7

> I think writers are more interested in their own created characters than in legacy characters.


That's true. 

Many writers are more interested in the big sellers or their own creations.

----------


## byrd156

> That's true. 
> 
> Many writers are more interested in the big sellers or their own creations.


I'm so tired of new characters, the old ones are all damaged or broken in their own ways. Adding more is just making things more of a mess.

----------


## kjn

> I think writers are more interested in their own created characters than in legacy characters.


Are they? A lot of them surely are, but there are also people (including writers) who are drawn to characters with a long history, a rich legacy, and sometimes also a high status. Or as G Willow Wilson said about being offered the chance for writing Wonder Woman:




> So it really did seem like the right place, the right time. And even if it hadnt been, when you get a call saying, Hey, can you write Wonder Woman? You dont say no. You find a way, you find the time. I was very honored to be asked.

----------


## Konja7

> Are they? A lot of them surely are, but there are also people (including writers) who are drawn to characters with a long history, a rich legacy, and sometimes also a high status. Or as G Willow Wilson said about being offered the chance for writing Wonder Woman:


Of course, there are writers interested in characters with high status. In fact, they put their new characters in book with high status characters. 

Curiously, Dick should be a character with high status. The problem is that his higher status are "the first sidekick (Robin)" or "the hero becoming independent"

This is why Dick can be easily used in other media, they can put Dick in these roles again and develop him in different ways. However, this isn't possible in comics.

----------


## kjn

Oh, I think there are good niches for Dick. The one that opened the current Titans run, with Dick setting out to form a team to help new metahumans to adjust to their new powers, sounded like an excellent further development of him. It's also similar to the way he is used the TV show.

There is also a difference between having a new character as a protagonist and as a supporting character. Supporting characters come and go all the time, it's when the new character takes over from the established one that you end up in trouble with readers (see Robinson's use of Jason in Wonder Woman).

----------


## oasis1313

What do you do when you're assigned to write the book of a character your boss despises?

----------


## Godlike13

That’s easy, try to change his mind with your work on him. Every writers goal on a character should be to get people interested and invested on that character and their work on them. From die hard fans, to the more general audiences, to the people that despise him.

----------


## oasis1313

I'd say that the goal for a Nightwing writer would be to write Dick Grayson in such a way that Dan Didio is won over and changes his mind about hating the character.

----------


## Robanker

> I'd say that the goal for a Nightwing writer would be to write Dick Grayson in such a way that Dan Didio is won over and changes his mind about hating the character.


The thing is he hates Dick's existence by virtue of his relationship to Batman. Unless Dick gets de-aged, I don't think it can be solved for Didio. Dick being a young adult makes Bruce an old man by his own admission, so he has to go in order for the fantasy of Batman being 32 or something to make sense. I dunno, I always imagine Batman frozen around 38 and Dick roughly 24, so Bruce was about 24-26 when Dick first took flight as Robin. Considering Bruce has a 13 year-old son (sure, artificial womb and super SCIENCE) and has gone through all those Robins, 38 isn't a stretch. Keeps him in his prime, adds some years for wisdom and gives a lot of time to fit stories in. 

I guess that makes him a decrepit old grandfather? 

Dick Grayson's age is his problem, as is his generation because they grew up and Didio firmly wants his heroes young, vital and with none of their sidekicks invalidating their success by being heroes they themselves mentored into equals. He just seems like a terrible fit for creative direction of DC Comics, but what do I know?

----------


## WonderNight

> I'd say that the goal for a Nightwing writer would be to write Dick Grayson in such a way that Dan Didio is won over and changes his mind about hating the character.


what ways are that? It whould have to be in ways that didio feel nightwing is no longer redundant with batman and robin or ages batman.

----------


## oasis1313

Why not de-age them all if that's what it takes to make Didio happy?

----------


## Ascended

> Why not de-age them all if that's what it takes to make Didio happy?


I think if Didio wanted the original sidekick generation to be kids again he'd have done it. Or rather, if he wanted it and could get away with it, he'd have done it.

If you de-age Dick and Wally, you end up losing Damian, Tim (I know you wouldnt mind but many of us would), Bart, Conner, etc. Those characters have a lot of fans, and they wont be happy to see them disappear just so Dick can wear short shorts again. And for that matter, how many of us actually want to see the NTT de-aged back to sidekick levels? Granted, the treatment they get these days is so piss poor it makes me angry and I question how anyone dense enough to abuse them could have any authority in the company, but do we *really* want to lose all that history and development in main canon? I dont.

Didio seems to want two generations in DC; the League's generation and their sidekicks (currently Damian's generation), and everyone else like the JSA, NTT and Young Justice? Didio can't seem to figure out what purpose they could serve. 

The fact that DC is all about legacy and Didio can't get behind multiple generations is......ironic, to say the least.

As for whether a writer could turn Didio around on Nightwing? Who knows? Didio's problem doesn't seem to be Dick as much as the fact that Dick being in his mid-20's somehow makes Bruce an invalid. So I'd presume that there's no way to turn Didio's opinion around because it's not about Nightwing at all, its about Batman being "old."

The best hope is that some writer comes in when DC expects nothing from them, and knocks out such a fantastic run that even Didio can't ignore the fan response. It seems that, unless you're Batman, the only way to find success is in spite of DC, not because of them. 

Its that, or we hope that some WB exec decides to take an interest in Nightwing and over rules Didio. How or why someone at WB would care, I have no idea. It'd certainly be something banal like the exec's grand kids liking Nighting on the Young Justice cartoon or something equally mundane, and that exec forcing Didio to make Nightwing viable so the exec's grand kids can have more stuff.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Why not de-age them all if that's what it takes to make Didio happy?


bc then we lose people like Jason, Damian, Connor, et c.

My question, honestly, is why do we need them to have definite ages and why do we need a definite timeline and why do we need it all to make a clear logical sense? When I first got into comics I worked out like a ten year timeline that had bruce in his late 20s/early30s, Dick in his early twenties, et c., but as time has gone on I care about that way less.

In my mind, as long as Dick acts competent I can read him as someone that lost his parents when he was 8, started *training* soon after, took the streets with Batman a few years later, and is early/mid 20s now having been a hero his whole life. And I can do that and read Bruce as a late 20s early 30s guy whose been doing this for quite some time as well.

B/c I'm pretty comfortable with comic time not working like real person time. In comics world time time isn't really a strict progression of cause to effect. From a non linear non-subjective viewpoint, its more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

----------


## OversizedLoad

Remember when Higgins wanted to frame his run with Dick as the "Prince of Gotham"?

----------


## Badou

> Remember when Higgins wanted to frame his run with Dick as the "Prince of Gotham"?


Yeah, I remember when he said he wanted to make Dick that in Gotham. Just saw the name of Lobdell's new Red Hood arc is Prince of Gotham. I guess ideas in the Batman office are running thin, lol.

----------


## dropkickjake

> Yeah, I remember when he said he wanted to make Dick that in Gotham. Just saw the name of Lobdell's new Red Hood arc is Prince of Gotham. I guess ideas in the Batman office are running thin, lol.


Well lobdell's clearly are.

----------


## Restingvoice

> Remember when Higgins wanted to frame his run with Dick as the "Prince of Gotham"?


Yeah, then Death of The Family happen, but that's on him too. He doesn't have to torch the circus.

By the way, it's been a month, right? How's the sale on the current dickishness?

----------


## yohyoi

Ric for a year... We are gonna get Ric for another year.

----------


## Ascended

> Ric for a year... We are gonna get Ric for another year.


??? Did I miss some news?

----------


## oasis1313

> Yeah, then Death of The Family happen, but that's on him too. He doesn't have to torch the circus.
> 
> By the way, it's been a month, right? How's the sale on the current dickishness?


You mean "DickLESSness"?

----------


## byrd156

> Ric for a year... We are gonna get Ric for another year.


Where was that said?

----------


## Restingvoice

> You mean "DickLESSness"?


Oooh. That's better!

----------


## oasis1313

> Where was that said?


It's been going on since--what?--September?  It's still slogging around in March with no sign of stopping.  Uncle Dan sez revenge is a dish best eaten cold.  Real cold.

----------


## oasis1313

Why does Dick have to look so filthy and grungy, like he's never taken a shower?  Are we supposed to take it as "edgy" or "gross"?

----------


## Godlike13

The season finale was ok. It was good to see that Dick still cares about Bruce despite how angry he is, but it left so much up in the air and half done.

----------


## Darkcrusade25

> Remember when Higgins wanted to frame his run with Dick as the "Prince of Gotham"?


Loved Higgins' run. My first Nightwing run ever. I was more familar with the TNBA Nightwing and I enjoyed the 'Things Change' theme Higgins brought

----------


## Vordan

> bc then we lose people like Jason, Damian, Connor, et c.
> 
> My question, honestly, is *why do we need them to have definite ages and why do we need a definite timeline and why do we need it all to make a clear logical sense*? When I first got into comics I worked out like a ten year timeline that had bruce in his late 20s/early30s, Dick in his early twenties, et c., but as time has gone on I care about that way less.
> 
> In my mind, as long as Dick acts competent I can read him as someone that lost his parents when he was 8, started *training* soon after, took the streets with Batman a few years later, and is early/mid 20s now having been a hero his whole life. And I can do that and read Bruce as a late 20s early 30s guy whose been doing this for quite some time as well.
> 
> B/c I'm pretty comfortable with comic time not working like real person time. In comics world time time isn't really a strict progression of cause to effect. From a non linear non-subjective viewpoint, its more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.


We dont. Thats a fools errand anyway because the characters are never going to be allowed to age beyond a certain threshold. Its important to know what happened, not when it happened. And even then some continuity contradiction should be expected, you cant expect the writers to perfectly recall every bit of 80 years of continuity. I expect them to address what happened in the run that directly preceded them and if they do that Im happy.

----------


## Dzetoun

> The season finale was ok. It was good to see that Dick still cares about Bruce despite how angry he is, but it left so much up in the air and half done.


Yeah, it was kinda okay I guess. Too much up in the air, like you say. And it was undercut badly by trotting through tired themes that have been driven so far into the ground they must be approaching China by now. Again with Batman and the Joker? Really? As soon as they started in on that I knew the episode was in trouble.

Not to mention that it also undercut some of the emotional heft in Dick’s backstory. If we go by what he said (granted it was an illusory world, so maybe we shouldn’t) Bruce isn’t a killer but is just cold and brutal? Well, so is Dick (who is a killer besides), so where does he get off being so d***ed pissy about Bruce? 

Oh, and in the process he fully informed Trigon of Bruce’s identity and defenses. Which would make an interesting thread to follow up, should they decide to go in that direction.

----------


## Konja7

> By the way, it's been a month, right? How's the sale on the current dickishness?


Well, Nightwing 52 and Nightwing 53 sell 26K each. Maybe the variants help. 

It's sad Grayson 17 (the last number of King and Seeley) sold only 30K. 

That would transmit a bad message for DC.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Well, Nightwing 52 and Nightwing 53 sell 26K each. Maybe the variants help. 
> 
> It's sad Grayson 17 (the last number of King and Seeeley) sold only 30K. 
> 
> That would transmit a bad message for DC.


Well, _Nightwing_  appears to have the problem of a narrow range, with reasonably (but not absolutely) stable ceiling and floor. The good part about that is that it is very hard for editorial fiats and just bad writing to destroy the character. Witness the only period Nightwing/Grayson has been out of print in 23 years was while he was Batman.  And there has been a lot of terrible writing and editorial meddling in that time. If you add the time he was the central character in the Titans, that means he has been in continuous print for the greater portion of almost 40 years.

The bad part is that there isn’t much incentive to put effort into the character. If he sells about as well with just any old thing as he does with his better stories, then all the incentives are for DC to just keep his title chugging along and use him as a supporting player for Batman.

I think at this point the best that one can hope for in terms of comics is that DC use _Nightwing_  to develop promising talent and encourage them to think big and original (see _Grayson_). Alternatively, one might hope that an experienced writer take on the character out of a desire to experiment with a worthy concept, like Waid with Daredevil.

----------


## Dzetoun

Following up with my post above about Dick in _Titans_, IGN has an interview with the show runner here:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/12...an-cliffhanger

It sounds like they are still wrestling with some pretty big things, including the specifics of Dick’s relationship with Bruce and what Bruce taught him. Note Walker refers to episode 11 as a “dream,” which is probably mostly semantics but may imply that they don’t want to tie themselves to anything. (I assume mostly the dream was generated from Dick’s mind, with the ripple effect indicating points where Trigon interfered). Superboy’s role is still undefined, and Batgirl is totally off the table for now. 

What was going to be episode 12 is now episode 1 of Season 2. I think Den of Geek had a good point in their review where they said that the pacing feels more like a regular 22 episode season than a short 11 episode season. In that sense, this was more like a mid-season cliffhanger than a season finale. Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound like we are getting to Nightwing anytime soon.

Oh, there’s also a couple of interesting videos linked on the page, including a set of clips where the _Titans_ cast talks about killing in the story.

----------


## yohyoi

Titans is now a Dick Grayson show and I'm not even mad. Hopefully, Dick learns from this. He has let go of Robin, but years of anger and hatred are still there. I love that Dick stood against Bruce instead of crying and begging him to go back. When Bruce acts like a jerk, Dick should call him out and not follow him. It's great to see a Dick Grayson with a backbone after Abnett making Nightwing a Justice League lapdog.

----------


## Ascended

> Well, _Nightwing_  appears to have the problem of a narrow range, with reasonably (but not absolutely) stable ceiling and floor. The good part about that is that it is very hard for editorial fiats and just bad writing to destroy the character. Witness the only period Nightwing/Grayson has been out of print in 23 years was while he was Batman.  And there has been a lot of terrible writing and editorial meddling in that time. If you add the time he was the central character in the Titans, that means he has been in continuous print for the greater portion of almost 40 years.
> 
> The bad part is that there isnt much incentive to put effort into the character. If he sells about as well with just any old thing as he does with his better stories, then all the incentives are for DC to just keep his title chugging along and use him as a supporting player for Batman.


Ive said much the same about the sales ceiling/floor.

However, although it makes business sense for DC to just ignore the book because it'll sell the same no matter what, I do believe that with a little effort and patience, Nightwing could break through that ceiling into a higher sales bracket. And since the floor remains so stable, if DC could get him there I suspect he'd stay there with the same consistency he shows now.

It'd just take a writer who wants to do it, and DC letting him/her do their own thing instead of derailing the title for Bruce's benefit.

----------


## byrd156

> Following up with my post above about Dick in _Titans_, IGN has an interview with the show runner here:
> 
> https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/12...an-cliffhanger
> 
> It sounds like they are still wrestling with some pretty big things, including the specifics of Dicks relationship with Bruce and what Bruce taught him. Note Walker refers to episode 11 as a dream, which is probably mostly semantics but may imply that they dont want to tie themselves to anything. (I assume mostly the dream was generated from Dicks mind, with the ripple effect indicating points where Trigon interfered). Superboys role is still undefined, and Batgirl is totally off the table for now. 
> 
> What was going to be episode 12 is now episode 1 of Season 2. I think Den of Geek had a good point in their review where they said that the pacing feels more like a regular 22 episode season than a short 11 episode season. In that sense, this was more like a mid-season cliffhanger than a season finale. Unfortunately, it doesnt sound like we are getting to Nightwing anytime soon.
> 
> Oh, theres also a couple of interesting videos linked on the page, including a set of clips where the _Titans_ cast talks about killing in the story.


What does the video say about the killing?

----------


## oasis1313

> Titans is now a Dick Grayson show and I'm not even mad. Hopefully, Dick learns from this. He has let go of Robin, but years of anger and hatred are still there. I love that Dick stood against Bruce instead of crying and begging him to go back. When Bruce acts like a jerk, Dick should call him out and not follow him. It's great to see a Dick Grayson with a backbone after Abnett making Nightwing a Justice League lapdog.


I loved it, too.  Ready for next season RIGHT NOW.  Loved KickAss Dick Grayson.  Loved seeing K----o (if you watched the episode to the after-credits, you KNOW who I'm talking about).

----------


## OWL45

> I loved it, too.  Ready for next season RIGHT NOW.  Loved KickAss Dick Grayson.  Loved seeing K----o (if you watched the episode to the after-credits, you KNOW who I'm talking about).


Titans is so good. Dick Grayson is badass. Awesome episode and loved the after credit reveal. Excited for season 2.

----------


## JoeZ

Hello, everyone, Dick Grayson is my favorite DC character.
It's a pleasure to be here.  :Smile:

----------


## Shadow Myyst

> Hello, everyone, Dick Grayson is my favorite DC character.
> It's a pleasure to be here.


Bless your soul

----------


## byrd156

> Hello, everyone, Dick Grayson is my favorite DC character.
> It's a pleasure to be here.


Nice some new blood who will become jaded and cynical like us.  :Cool:

----------


## JoeZ

> Nice some new blood who will become jaded and cynical like us.


In fact I've come here to share some of my anguish with you guys.
So, well, it seems I'll be even more distressed..... lol
Some of my children are being crushed by DC.  :Frown: 
Dick
Tim
Jason
Wally
Roy
Donna
Garth
Gar
Kory
Raven
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Animal Man
SJA
and others......

----------


## Ascended

Welcome to the forum.  :Smile: 

We're all a little mad here.

----------


## Dzetoun

> What does the video say about the killing?


The actors for Hawk and Dove simply say that yes, the Titans kill. Brenton Thwaites says that he does not interpret Dick as killing, but also says that the way the show is edited suggests that many of the people Dick fights may end up dead. Ryan Potter gives the longest answer, saying that the Titans certainly want to always do the right thing, but some collateral damage is unavoidable.

----------


## Dzetoun

> Welcome to the forum. 
> 
> We're all a little mad here.



In both the American and British senses of “mad.”

----------


## JoeZ

> The actors for Hawk and Dove simply say that yes, the Titans kill. Brenton Thwaites says that he does not interpret Dick as killing, but also says that the way the show is edited suggests that many of the people Dick fights may end up dead. Ryan Potter gives the longest answer, saying that the Titans certainly want to always do the right thing, but some collateral damage is unavoidable.


I really enjoyed the show, but I confess, the killings just bothered me, especially about Dick.  :Frown:

----------


## dietrich

Happy Holidays guys   :Smile:

----------


## byrd156

> Happy Holidays guys


Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you and everyone in the thread.

----------


## oasis1313

> Hello, everyone, Dick Grayson is my favorite DC character.
> It's a pleasure to be here.


A great big Christmas welcome to you!  We're the most sheet-upon fandom in the universe, but the fact that we're still here sounding off and keeping it real means that Wingnuts are the strongest and best fans out there.  We support our guy Dick through thick and thin.  We might beeyatch some, but that's because we have justifiable cause.  Everyone is here because We Love Dick Grayson.

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## Frontier

> Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you and everyone in the thread.


Merry Christmas to all fans of Dick Grayson (and the Robins)  :Smile: .

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## byrd156

This art is great and bums me out.

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## oasis1313

> This art is great and bums me out.


Looks like Garth has a drinking problem.

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## byrd156

> Looks like Garth has a drinking problem.


No that's Donna.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## oasis1313

> No that's Donna.


I know, but she's the one still on her feet.

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## Ascended

What is that from? 

Donna almost looks like she's drawn by that Marvel artist, Dauterman, I think it is?

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## JoeZ

> This art is great and bums me out.


beautiful art. my favorite team of all time. But it also makes me a little worried. I'm still waiting for all those deaths to be reversed at the end. it's not possible that Tom King will keep them all dead.
i hope not.

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## JoeZ

> Bless your soul





> Nice some new blood who will become jaded and cynical like us.





> Welcome to the forum. 
> 
> We're all a little mad here.





> A great big Christmas welcome to you!  We're the most sheet-upon fandom in the universe, but the fact that we're still here sounding off and keeping it real means that Wingnuts are the strongest and best fans out there.  We support our guy Dick through thick and thin.  We might beeyatch some, but that's because we have justifiable cause.  Everyone is here because We Love Dick Grayson.





> In both the American and British senses of mad.



Thanks, guys.  :Smile:

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## dropkickjake

> What is that from? 
> 
> Donna almost looks like she's drawn by that Marvel artist, Dauterman, I think it is?


Looks like heroes in crisis 4. I missed that too at first glance, in the graffiti. 

Dauterman drew Nightwing for two issues at the end of Higgins run. Those were beautiful issues.

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## oasis1313

> Looks like heroes in crisis 4. I missed that too at first glance, in the graffiti. 
> 
> Dauterman drew Nightwing for two issues at the end of Higgins run. Those were beautiful issues.


It'd be nice to have someone like that drawing the Nightwing book.

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## Rac7d*

> Looks like heroes in crisis 4. I missed that too at first glance, in the graffiti. 
> 
> Dauterman drew Nightwing for two issues at the end of Higgins run. Those were beautiful issues.


I can believe the stupid Donna Troy falls into depression and goes evil prophecy is actually being setup half her friends are dead nightwing  that she knew is gone is Garth next?

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## byrd156

> I can believe the stupid Donna Troy falls into depression and goes evil prophecy is actually being setup half her friends are dead nightwing  that she knew is gone is Garth next?


I hope it comes true and she kills the rest of the DCU. Let's hurry up and get to the next bad reboot.

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## Ascended

> Looks like heroes in crisis 4. I missed that too at first glance, in the graffiti. 
> 
> Dauterman drew Nightwing for two issues at the end of Higgins run. Those were beautiful issues.


I was wondering if it really was HiC. The costumes are straight up OG and those haven't been seen since the reboot.

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## byrd156

> I was wondering if it really was HiC. The costumes are straight up OG and those haven't been seen since the reboot.


I will admit, HiC is doing one thing right. Destroying Roy's trucker hat and brining in the classic Titans outfits is great. The price for it, not so much.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## oasis1313

Haven't even browsed it in the store.  No Dick.  Not worth my money.

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## Konja7

> I was wondering if it really was HiC. The costumes are straight up OG and those haven't been seen since the reboot.


Tom King likes to reference the Pre-Flashpoint continuity. Do you remember Batman 54 has a cover with Dick in his original Robin costume? 


However, that doesn't mean this will change the current continuity. 

In the internal pages of Batman 54, although there are many flashbacks, we never see Dick using his original Robin costume. 

In Nightwin 50 (after Batman 54), we see flashbacks and Dick still use the New52 Robin costume.

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## oasis1313

There's no such thing as "continuity" anymore.  DC threw away its rich history and now cherry-picks whatever a given writer wants to say is "canon".  "The history is whatever I say it is."  Heaven forbid anyone should have to actually know what they're doing.  What a sweet gig--big paychecks, no professional or personal responsibility, promotions in spite of failures--no wonder everybody wants in!

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## Ascended

> There's no such thing as "continuity" anymore.  DC threw away its rich history and now cherry-picks whatever a given writer wants to say is "canon".  "The history is whatever I say it is."  Heaven forbid anyone should have to actually know what they're doing.  What a sweet gig--big paychecks, no professional or personal responsibility, promotions in spite of failures--no wonder everybody wants in!


Big paychecks? 

Not last time I looked at the page rates.  :Smile:  I suppose the big names do alright but the averages aren't too impressive.

But you're right; continuity doesn't exist right now. Between Metal and Manhattan reality is as malleable as silly putty.

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## oasis1313

> Big paychecks? 
> 
> Not last time I looked at the page rates.  I suppose the big names do alright but the averages aren't too impressive.
> 
> But you're right; continuity doesn't exist right now. Between Metal and Manhattan reality is as malleable as silly putty.


It's a pretty good living when you have to work a lot harder than that flipping burgers at McDonalds for whatever is minimum wage in your state.

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## Ascended

> It's a pretty good living when you have to work a lot harder than that flipping burgers at McDonalds for whatever is minimum wage in your state.


Ha. Most careers look good compared to flipping burgers. I feel like that's not really a fair comparison.  :Smile:

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## oasis1313

I know a kid who has a Masters in Creative Writing and he has't been able to find paying work as a writer; he's down at Popeye's Chicken this evening and NOT as the Manager.

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## Ascended

The entertainment industry has always been a bear to break into. The world is full of starving artists with incredible talent. I was one of those starving artists for a while myself before putting the pencil down.

The college degree in the arts is a nice touch, but those industries have always been about knowing the right people and making the most of an opportunity if you manage to stumble upon one. 

Hell, my first paying gig came from the old DC message boards, way back in the late 90's. Some editor for a new magazine was looking for artists and I just happened to be among the first who responded, which was the only reason I got the job. Had I not logged in that evening I would've missed the shot.

.....I dont believe the magazine survived all that long, but the check cleared.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I hear its easier to get work like this in Europe, though I've no idea how true that is.

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## oasis1313

It's a totally stupid system; you see the same old hacks over and over, and I yearn for new talent.  But congrats on being able to cash that check!

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## oasis1313

> The entertainment industry has always been a bear to break into. The world is full of starving artists with incredible talent. I was one of those starving artists for a while myself before putting the pencil down.
> 
> The college degree in the arts is a nice touch, but those industries have always been about knowing the right people and making the most of an opportunity if you manage to stumble upon one. 
> 
> Hell, my first paying gig came from the old DC message boards, way back in the late 90's. Some editor for a new magazine was looking for artists and I just happened to be among the first who responded, which was the only reason I got the job. Had I not logged in that evening I would've missed the shot.
> 
> .....I dont believe the magazine survived all that long, but the check cleared. 
> 
> I hear its easier to get work like this in Europe, though I've no idea how true that is.


Is there a European comics scene?  Comics companies here seem to lionize writers from Europe, especially England, maybe because of the long literary traditions there.

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